They are sleeping together outside of marriage, using porn, and doing a host of other things that can endanger their souls.

It can be tempting to conclude that most Catholics in America today are going to go to hell.

Is the situation that bleak?

A Question from a Reader

A reader writes:

I belong to a great parish, full of wonderful people who love God and neighbor.

However, I can't help but be aware that at least from an objective viewpoint, most of them seem to be in a state of mortal sin per the Church's teaching.

The most common one is the use of contraception, but there are plenty of others, including cohabitation prior to marriage, remarriage outside the Church, etc.

The Church views all these things as mortal sins, although it's clear these people don't view them that way.

Our society at this moment makes it really difficult for people, especially young people, to do what the Church expects.

I also know that most of these people genuinely and sincerely do not believe they are sinning. They continue to pray, to attend Mass, and have faith in Christ, which indicates to me that they don't desire to cut themselves off from God.

Is it truly likely that the vast majority of American Catholics will end up in hell?

What can we say here?

What Mortal Sin Is

Although Catholics sometimes say things like “contraception is a mortal sin” or “sleeping together outside of marriage is a mortal sin,” this is a form of shorthand.

For a person to truly commit a mortal sin, more than a mere act of contraception or a mere act of fornication is needed.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Let’s look at those three conditions

Grave Matter

If a married couple contracepts or if an unmarried couple has sexual relations, this fulfills the first of the three conditions: They have committed a “sin whose object is grave matter.”

But the other two conditions must also be fulfilled for the sin to be a mortal one.

In our shorthand way of speaking, we’re warning people against doing these things, because if the additional two conditions are fulfilled, it will be a mortal sin, but if they are not fulfilled then it won’t be.

Full Knowledge

The second condition involves having “full knowledge,” and here is where the reader’s remarks about society come into play.

The reader acknowledges that society makes it difficult for people to do what the Church teaches.

One of the ways it does that is by feeding them a constant narrative—through the media, through social interactions—that contradicts the Church’s teaching.

Even within the Church, there have been many people (priests, nuns, catechists) who have undermined the Church’s teaching in recent years.

We’ve had really bad catechesis for the last 40 years, as well as an assault on Church teaching by society and the media in general.

The result, as the reader notes, is that many people committing acts that are objectively gravely sinful do not believe that this is what they are doing.

As a result, for many of these people, the second condition needed for mortal sin may simply be lacking. On this point, the Catechism notes:

1859 Mortal sin . . . presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense.

This is likely the case with a large number of people who have been the victims of bad catechesis and the constant subversion of the Church’s teaching by society and the media.

On the other hand, if someone has a kind of willful blindness, that won’t let them off the hook:

1859 Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

How many people fall into this latter category? See below.

Deliberate Consent

The third condition is that of deliberate consent. According to the Catechism:

1860 The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

This means that the brief thoughts that flit through your mind and that you try to get rid of swiftly are not mortally sinful. You are not deliberately consenting to them.

You’re only doing that if you purposefully dwell on and foster them.

In the same way, “the prompting of feelings and passions”—to which young people in particular are subject—“can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense.”

So can “external pressures” and “pathological disorders.”

So even when people have committed a sin with grave matter and done so with full knowledge of its sinfulness, there are a number of things that could keep the third condition from being fulfilled and thus keep it from being a mortal sin.

The State of American Catholics

Given the factors mentioned above, the situation for American Catholics does not look quite as bleak.

While it is true that many of them are committing sins that have grave matter, between poor catechesis in Church, society’s constant assault on Church teaching, and the various factors that diminish the voluntary and free character of a sin, quite a number of them likely do not have all three conditions fulfilled.

Also, even when all three conditions are fulfilled and a sin is mortal, that does not mean a person will be damned.

It means that they would be damned if they died right now without repenting, but God is patient and gives us time to repent, and many people do before they die.

Thus, for example, St. Paul tells Timothy:

So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart [2 Tim. 2:22].

And the Psalmist says:

Remember not the sins of my youth, or my transgressions [Ps. 25:7].

These passages acknowledge that young people in particular are subject to certain temptations and sins but, as they age, they tend to drop these and often repent, regretting what they did in their youth.

This is another sign of hope.

Now let’s look at the reader’s fundamental question . . .

How Many People Go To Hell?

We can’t really know this.

Different figures in Church history have had different viewpoints on the question, and the Church itself does not have a teaching on the matter.

Some passages of Scripture seem to have a pessimistic tone but others seem to have an optimistic tone.

We also should be careful in taking the pessimistic ones and applying them directly to our own age, because they were written in and about an age in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness and the knowledge of the true God and his Son was severely limited compared to today.

For its part, the Church teaches the real possibility of dying in mortal sin and of eternal damnation, but it does not teach how many people experience this in practice.

It is worth looking, however, at a recent statement of former Pope Benedict’s . . .

45. With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms.

There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves.

This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history.

In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell.

On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours—people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are.

46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life.

For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God.

In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul.

Pope Benedict then goes on to discuss how these people, in the middle group, experience purgatory so that they can be purified and enter the full glory of heaven.

Pope Benedict thus seems to take a somewhat optimistic view of individual salvation. He suggests that, based on experience, “we may suppose” that “the great majority of people” do not fall into the category of those who have “totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love.”

They fall, instead, into the category of those who “in the depths of their being” have “an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God,” and who thus will be saved once they have been purified of the “filth” and “compromises with evil” that have covered over their openness to God “in the concrete choices of life.”

Finding Peace

Pope Benedict does not impose this view as a matter of Church teaching. He says that it is something “we may suppose” regarding the majority of people, but when you have a pope saying this—particularly in an encyclical—it’s a position that we need to take seriously.

Doing so can be a component of finding peace amid the sins we see others around us committing.

Another part of finding peace is this: God loves them even more than we do and can work with them over time and in ways that are invisible to us.

What we are fundamentally responsible for is the salvation of our own souls. We need to make sure that we respond to God’s grace.

We want to do what we can for other people, but they are ultimately in God’s hands, not ours, and that is where we should leave them.

When we have the opportunity, we should invite them to grow closer to God and to abandon the sins that may be ensnaring them. We should pray for them, but we should not let their situation destroy our own peace.

Instead, we should entrust them to the loving and merciful God who gave his own Son to die on a Cross so that they might be saved.

Comments

Check out this site in your search for truth. Be a truth seeker and let the truth set us free. Let the evidence be our guide. Amazing evidence for truth in Jesus death and resurrection and died for our sins. Lets examine the hell evidence to see what it says. Lets be like a Berean. The website is http://www.godsplanforall.com

In Christ

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Aug 16, 2013 11:03 PM (EDT):

@Tyler: Just what everyone needs, another Catholic on steroids. In your theology Jesus should never have taken time with his followers to eat, sleep, walk, heal or even breathe.
.
[”“We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.”] - Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis.
.
“Mysteries of the faith?” This Sunday, why don’t you take a poll after Mass and find out how many people can name any of these mysteries. Has your parish priest even taught on these mysteries? Then again, the gospel furnishes no evidence that Jesus ever handed out copies of the Catechism.

Posted by Tyler on Friday, Aug 16, 2013 5:50 PM (EDT):

@Jimmy Akin

Jimmy,
Ignorance is not an excuse for grave sin.
Ignorance is, in fact, in itself a grave sin.
As you know, at the time of judgment we will be called to render an account of how we used the time God gave us on earth.
If we try to explain that we used our time watching TV, movies, playing video games, going to sporting events, checking our car shows, eating at restaurants, etc. etc. etc. (insert literally any activity) rather than studying our holy and perfect Catholic faith, God will not give us a freebie.
Especially not when we live in a first world country with access to any number of catechisms at our finger tips.

“We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.” - Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis

I suggest you read up on St. Leonard of Port Maurice to better understand the fewness of those who are saved.
I can send you an audio file of a sermon by Fr. Michael Rodriguez (simply reading St. Leonard’s sermon) about this very subject.

The more you continue to preach “good hope for salvation of many,” the less people will ever think they need to change their ways and re-evaluate their lives…and many may be lost for eternity.

James 3:1 - “Be ye not many masters [teachers], my brethren, knowing that you receive the greater judgment.”

This supposed split in theological thought throughout history about the number of those saved is not even close to as equal as I have heard you, Tim Staples, Patrick Madrid, Patrick Coffin, Fr. Robert Barron, etc. suggest…

Anyone who does their research from Augustine to Aquinas to Alphonsus to John Vianney etc etc etc (plus Matthew 7) will see the gate is narrow…and most are, by their own fault, lost.

Pax Christi

“He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, both are abominable before God.” - Proverbs 17:15

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Posted by Mary on Wednesday, Jul 17, 2013 1:36 PM (EDT):

Here’s a list of what you need to watch out for in false beliefs:
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- Idealization of some past era combined with the belief that the world has gone awry;
- Declared certainty of the correctness of one’s religious vision;
- Complete unwillingness to compromise with those who disagree;
- Powerful denunciation of people with different lifestyles, especially when they involve forms of homosexuality or sexual liberality;
- Devaluation of events in this world and an intense focus on life after death;
- Willingness to assume the role of God’s ‘hit man’, defending the deity and his representatives against all perceived insults;
- Extreme veneration of some religious leader or leaders; Disconcerting lack of concern for earthly evidence, except of the sort sanctioned by the religious system;
- Routine acceptance of the desired ends as justification for unsavory means;
- Adoption of numerous defensive methods for avoiding serious encounters with conflicting systems of belief and their adherents;
- Dehumanizing imagery of non-believers and religious out-groups; and
- Strong preference for keeping women in traditional, subordinate roles.
.
Any religion that renounces humanity is a cult.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Monday, Jul 15, 2013 9:57 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

Sorry you will not admit to what your RCC teaches: it DOES teach that all other faith traditions are false. Again, apparently you have not read any history or RC theology. You have failed to repons to the clear things that Dominus Iesus says and which I have quoted. Yes, the RCC says, yes thate are some things OK in other faith traditions, but still says that they “contain gaps, insufficiencies, and errors”—meaning that the RCC is saying that it does not contain gaps, error, insufficiences. Section VI says that “The Churchis necessary for slavation and is the universal sacrament of salvation”—meaning that no other faith tradition cannot offer a way to God’s salvation. The document says that “the rituals other faith traditions depend on superstition and other errors and are an “obstacle to salvation. Meaning tha that the RCC is saying that its rituals alone do not depend on “superstition and other error” ans is not “an obstacle to salvation”. You clearly do not udnerstand what your church is saying. Too bad you seem to want to be willfully ignorant of the baselss bigotry and arrogance of the RCC. I do not hate RC, I do despise the corrupt hierarchy of the RCC—which is interested only in power, profit and privilege. The RCC hierarchy is the “whitened sepulcher” of our time. And of course, you know know AI am right, bacue you resort ot the sexist insult (your priests would be proud) of calling me “shrill”. that sort to thing is the last resort of the ignorant person who knows he cannot defend his clearly erroroneous ideas—of the person who know that he has been caught out in something clearly wrong, clerly in error, but will not admit that he is wrong. Sad. I pity you

Posted by Mark Shea on Monday, Jul 15, 2013 9:23 PM (EDT):

Yes. I’m aware of Dominus Iesus. Saying that the fullness of the revelation of Jesus Christ subsists in the Catholic Church is not saying “all other faith traditions are false”. It’s saying that other traditions are, in various ways and degrees, partly right. An atheist has to say that all religions are false. A Catholic not only need not, he cannot. For instance, he must, as a matter of dogma, confess that Judaism is partly right since Jewish scriptures are part of his Bible. Someone who is not an angry bigot would be able to acknowledge that and much more. You, however, are on a mission to just say whatever you can to land a punch, because you really really hate Catholics. You’re a parody. Poor Buber would spin in his grave. Try reading a little Neusner. The thread’s 430+ comments long and the only person still listening to the sound of your shrill voice is you. Give it up.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Monday, Jul 15, 2013 9:02 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

You must not be an RC or or must be totally ignorant of what the RCC teaches and how it has put that teaching into practice.

First and foremost: the RCC DOES teach that salvation comes only through the RCC and that all other faith traditions are false. For the most modern/recent statement of this centuries-old RCC teaching please read the encyclical Dominus Iesus. An encyclical is the most authorative statement of teaching by YOUR RCC, issued by the pope (you know, the guy you RCs says is infallible). Dominus Iesus says that other religions are “limited”,“incomplete”, have “imperfect chracter”. That there is “one church of Christ in the Catholic Church. That other religions “contain gaps, insufficiencies and errors”. In particular read Section IV of the document. The whole document says that salvation comes only through the the RCC becasue the RCC and Jesus are “inseparable”. Section VI of the document says that “Church is necessary for salvation and the Church is the universal sacrament of salvation.”

Secondly during the Crusades and during the 600 yrs of the Inquistion, the RCC freely tortured, murdered and forcibly converted Jews, Mulsims, Native Americans, and Protestant Christains because the RCC taught and practiced that only RCs will be saved, that salvation comes only through the RCC.

You seem to be ignorant of what your church teaches and has done in the past and does today. And what your church teaches is the height of arrogance, bigotry and falsehood. Please do some reading and/or go talk to your priest or bishop so you do not so thoroughly display your ignorance of what your church teaches.

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jul 14, 2013 9:12 PM (EDT):

Lisa:

If memory serves, during WWI, there was a particular dense Congressman who referred to the Germans as “these so-called Germans”. You are doing the same thing when you put scare quotes around the Christian. Christians are people who believe in Jesus Christ. No need for scare quotes if you are referring to people who believe in him. And the fact that some of them are bad Christians does not make them “Christians” any more than the adultery of David or the idolatry of Solomon or Manasseh made them “Jews”.

You have reached the point where you are simply screaming stuff in order to tell yourself how right you are and, ironically, how false the faith of Catholics is. It’s true that some Christians insist that only member of their sect can be saved. It’s emphatically not true that the Church teaches this. Nor has it ever taught it. If you were not blinded by your hatred of the Church, you could discover that fact. But as it is, you have now reached the point where you no longer even care about having a conversation. A pity. I hope a better representative of Judaism will turn up here, because you are a thorough bigot.

Posted by lisakaiser on Sunday, Jul 14, 2013 6:03 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

You prove my point: “christians’ do not like to be challenged and feel that they have special privileges. “christains” are uncomfortable with the truth. “christians” do routinely say that other faith traidtions are false, that the ony “true God is the Jesus of “christianity”. The RCC makes the false claim that it alone is the one true faith”. As the RCC call itself the “one true faith”, then obviously it is saying that other “christian” traditions are false and that other faith traditions are false. It is the RCC that spews bigotry. You seem not to want to face or own up to that basic fact of YOUR RCC.

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jul 13, 2013 10:51 PM (EDT):

“Christians” routinely call other faith traditions false.

Most un-self-aware rant of the whole thread.

Lisa: You are a first-class bigot and you have reached the point in the thread where you are simply repeating slogans and tropes with no interest in trying to persuade anybody. You’re just spewing. I’m done.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Saturday, Jul 13, 2013 7:23 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

Here is what is truly ugly, illiterate, baseless, dumb gratuitous: that Christians have determined that and act as if they are entitled to special rights. Christians act as if no one has the right to challenge their beliefs. “Christians act as if they are entitled to try to dismiss, negate other faith tradition. “Christians” routinely call other faith traditions false. “Christians"say that their faith is the only “true faith and everyone else is going to hell because their scripture say so and/or because their brand of church says so. As if citing their scripture will make the rest of swoon and “fall into line”, as if their scripture has any relevance to the rest of us. The RCC in turn attacks other “Christians, saying that only RCism is true and that the pope is infallible, that marriages performed by other “christians” are not true marriages in the sight of God, etc. Christians and the RC bishops in particular spend millions of dollars lobbying state and federal lawmakers trying to impose their teachings upon the rest of us, because they feel entitled to do that.

“Christians” and RC do not like like to be questioned or challenged, because they feel this is a violation of their “right” to impose their stuff on the rest of us. In the history of faith traditions in the world, “christianity” is young and an upstart—yet “christians” feel they have the right to dictate to the rest of us.

“Christians” have the right to beleive whatever they want to beleive—but not the right to impose their nonsense on the rest of us, not the right to arrogantly and falsely assert that only theri faith is real (heck “christians” cannot even agree among themselves what is “right” or “true” belief.

In looking at the many of the posts on the Register, it seems many RCS would like to go back t the “glory” days of the Middle Ages” when the RCC freely
tortured, murdered, forcibly converted anyone who disagreed with Rome.

The rest of us have the right to stand up and challenge and resist this “christian” arrogance and attempt to force their teachings upon all American society. Too bad if christians” do not like this. Too bad if “christians and the RCC in particular do not like democracy, equal rights for all, freedom of religion, freedom to be free from religion. As a Jew ans as an American, I will always challenge the the false idea that “christains” have special rights, the right to impose their stuff on the rest of us, the false idea that only their scripture are right and true, the false idea that Jesus was God and that a human being is necessary for the forgiveness of sin and/or for “salvation”. This is called self-defense against those who are hostile to the rights of the rest of us. Too bad if “christians” don’t like this—they have brought upon themselves.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Saturday, Jul 13, 2013 6:07 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

There are three Abrahamic tradition—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Each exists because God wills it. Because God wills it, because God loves Jews, Christians and Muslims, equally without reservation. God has different, ongoing, unbroken, valid covenants with the peoples of each tradition. Jesus as God is fine for Christians. Jesus is irrelevant and unnecesary for the covenants between God and Jews and God and Muslims. If you want to believe that your Jesus is necessary for the “salvation”, that is fine. But its just not true for Jews and Muslims. God offers us love and grace, etc—no Jesus necessary.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Saturday, Jul 13, 2013 5:59 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

My opinion is that those who follow the blatantly corrupt RC hierarchy are gullible and weak-minded. I do not apologize for that opinion—which is based upon the centuries scandals of pedophile priests (and cover ups), the 1869 assertion that a pope is infallible, the RCC’s idea that it had the right to torture, murder and force conversion upon Jews, Native Americans, Muslims, and Protestants. The lies the RCC tells about the efficacy of condoms and birth control, the rampant sexism of the hierarchy. And recently the RCC seems to be obsessed with sex and with spreading messages of hate against gay people. The poor stewardship of money given to the RCC by hard-working lay people. The former bishop of Phoenix, Thomas O’Brien is a convicted felon—he hit pedestrian and fled the scene, leaving the man to die without any calling for medical help for the man. The message of the Torah that Jesus preached is super, but the RCC does not follow that message.

As for the writers of the gospels—they definitely distorted the Jewish definition of messiah so that they could falsely claim that Jesus as the messiah (and God). I know you do not like that idea, but I am not alone in it. It is one of the many reasons Jews do not accept Jesus as God.

Martin Buber is dead, so nothing I say affects him. And I am free to express my opinion here. As are you.

I am glad you have an appreciation for Judaism. You are welcome to become a Jew if you feel that that is the direction in which God is leading you.

Posted by chris awo on Saturday, Jul 13, 2013 12:54 PM (EDT):

Jesus of Nazareth is alive. He has been seen by so many people since his resurrection from the dead. I could site testimonies upon testimonies down the centuries even till now in 2013. (google it yourself).
The fact of the continued presence of the Lord Jesus is not fiction and is not a matter of levels of education. If i were to give my personal intimate testimony of the fact that Jesus is alive, you would probably laugh. So i wont tell you what i have seen.
Suffice to say that anyone who has heard of the Lord Jesus and dismisses him flippantly without careful personal investigation has already condemned himself. But anybody no matter the worst sinner who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus sincerely from his heart will be saved and recieve the beatific vision. Even if his repentance is at the last moments of his life, as long as he calls on the name of the Lord Jesus, he will escape the eternal damnation reserved for Satan and his cohorts.
“May your mercies, O Lord, be upon us as we have all our hopes in you.” (cf Psalm 33)

Posted by Mark Shea on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 8:56 PM (EDT):

Lashon hara is the term that means derogatory speech about someone. And is usually used inthe context of speaking about someone behind their back, spreading false or vicious rumors.

So, like calling a billion strangers gullible and weak-willed behind their backs?

Lisa: As I say, you would have embarrassed Buber. Your polemical simplicities about Paul the nutjob and your baseless and gratuitous illiteracies about the New Testament authors are great examples of the worst of Internet blabbery (just like Casting Crowns) but no, it’s just not true that you haven’t said anything untrue. You made a lot of dumb, gratuitous assertions that you expect people to accept simply because you say it in a superior tone. You make Judaism look ugly. Which is a shame, because it’s not ugly but beautiful. Reconsider you approach, because it’s a turnoff.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 6:04 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

I am not a “guest” on this blog. This is an open comment thread, no password, registration, membership required. This site is not a prive RCC site. It is open to all. No one is a “guest” here.

Secondly, thanking ofr mentioning my education. I appreciate that you promote my RC education credentials! I do not have to mention them, since you are happy to do that for me. Much appreciated.

Also, you may want to submt to the authority of Paul—that is your right and choice as a christian. Paul, a delusional idolator has NO authority over any Jew. Paul is irrelevant to Jews. Jews answer only to God, not to any man.

I do not accuse “every” contributor of being “ignorant and silly” ,just those who are. And you certainly often boldly and happily express silly ideas and display blatant ignorance. So I am happy to call you on it.

And once again (because I think you must have a reading comprehnsion problem), Jesus did NOT claim to be God or savior or messaih. The writers of the gospels put those false words in the mouth of Jesus decades after jesus died (and stayed dead).

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 5:53 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

Lashon hara is the term that means derogatory speech about someone. And is usually used inthe context of speaking about someone behind their back, spreading false or vicious rumors. That kind of thing. In contrast, my remarks were made directly to Casting Crowns. So not lashon hara (not nice alwasy, I admit, but lashon hara).

The RCC in its teaching ahs rejected blaming Jews of “deicide”, but you well know that was not the practice of the RCC in centuries past. The RCC was happy to torture and murder Jews and to force Jews to convert during the Crusades & Inquisition), to force Jews to live in ghettos, to close professions to Jews, to confiscate copies of the Torah and to forbid the printing of and the teaching of Torah, to confiscate the property of Jews, to encourage monarchs to expel Jews from various European nations during 600 yrs of Inquistion throughout Europe. Pope John Paul II realized that the RCC had a lot to apologize for.

As for “simple polemics”—in the format of a comment thread, that is appropriate. And I have said nothing inaccurate.

For those RCs who stay in the pews depsite the rampant corruption of the RC hierarchy and in depsite of other real problems with the RCC, then I do not apologize for saying the RCC is for the weak-minded and gullible. Of course, many RCs in hte developing world do not have opportunities for education and so are easy prey for the corrupt RC hierarchy. The sole exception in my opinion are the women religious—who are educated, not weak-minded and not gullible. They are living the spirit of Vatican II, standing up against the corrupt hierarchy, caring for the poor, the sick, the vulnerable. They are the example for all RCs to follow.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 5:03 PM (EDT):

And Mark: I agree courtesy should be expected (and by all parties). She is the guest on a Catholic blog. The problem is that Ms. Kaiser has repeatedly attacked not Christianity per se, but only Catholicism specifically. The commentary which repeats are: “YOUR” church, “YOUR” Bishops, “YOUR” church teaches x, y and z. Her dislike of the Catholic church has become legendary. She further accuses every contributor of being ignornant, silly and stupid regarding church history, the CCC and most damningly that Jesus was NOT who He claimed to be. I for one will not sing Kumbaya with anyone calling the life of Christ a bunch of made up fictional stories.
.
She will also want to remind us yet again she’s had “16 years of RC education.”
.
At some point people do not need to simply stand by and allow her comments to stand expecially when they run afoul of the gospel.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 4:43 PM (EDT):

@Mark: It has nothing to do with being Jewish. Radical feminism, though, has much to do with Paul’s discourse regarding authority. And nowhere is it implied the Jews are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. All have sinned—we put Him on the cross. You, me and everyone else.

Posted by Mark Shea on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 4:26 PM (EDT):

Lisa:

Come. You and Casting Crowns are peas in a pod. Your summary consignment of a billion people to the ranks of the gullible and weak-minded is every bit as ugly and, yes, triumphalist as the stupid stuff CC is spouting. I believe the term is lashon hara. Buber would be embarrassed by your ridiculous polemical simplicities.

And to be clear, the Church rejects (and always has rejected) the notion that the Jews are somehow solely responsible for the death of Jesus (the passage chewing out Catholics for blaming the Jews alone for the death of Jesus come, not from Vatican II, but from the Council of Trent, which is reiterating still more ancient teaching). I won’t make excuses for Catholic sins of persecution against Jews. But I will say that the notion the Church *ever* taught that Jews alone are responsible for his death is, by the nature of the Catholic understanding of salvation, impossible, since as Trent says, “all sinners were the authors of Christ’s passion” and, conversely, there never has been and never will be any person for whom Christ did not not die. That includes, of course, Jews. The great error of Jew-hatred, morally speaking, is obvious: it sins against the love of neighbor. The great error of Jew-hatred theologically speaking, is that it implied that Jesus died because of Jewish sins only, and therefore means that Jesus’ death was not due to the sins of the Jew hater too. I would hate to be the anti-semite who shows up at the Pearly Gate to tell St. Peter that Jesus didn’t die for my sins. I have enough problem with my own sins to not have to waste time blaming Jews for everything. Christians who do that are both fools and sinners.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 4:03 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

Yes, the RCC has abandoned the idea that Jews killed Jesus. The Roamn Empire killed Jesus. In 2000, Pope John Paul II apologized to Jews for all the wrong the RCC committed against Jews, includly wrongly assigning responsibility for the death of Jesus to Jews.

I think you may have missed my point about Judaism. Judaism is NOT about triumphalism. Triumphalism is the outdated/discredited idea that some RCs stubbornly cling to re the RCC. My point about Judaism is that is A path to God NOT the only path to God. We do NOT seek converts. That we Jews have existed for 4500 yrs and have an ongoing, unbroken valid covenant with God. God has kept God’s promises to us Jews. And there is nothing about Christianity that negates God’s covenant or promise to us Jews. God loves us and we exist becasue God will it.

That is NOT triumphalism, that is stating the facts and refusing to bow to the false idea that Jesus was God or to the false idea that the RCC is in any way superior or triumphant over Judaism

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 3:53 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

You do spout a lot of nonsense, bigotry and ignorance. first of all, you did make anti-Smeitic remarks. Be honest and own up to your bigotry. Secondly, Jews are not a race. Jews are a community, a tribe (as we call ourselves).

thr act you call me ‘honey’ si another sign of your bigotry, insecurity and an acknowledgeemnt that I am right about I post.

I do believe the message of the Torah and of the prophets. What I do NOT believe is your distortion of, your ignorance about the Torah and of the prophets.

Yes, Paul was a nut job. He deserted Judaism, was delusional and became a life-long worshipper of a false god, your Jesus. Paul was not called by God, Paul ignored God to go chasing after a false god.

And what is all this silly sputtering and spouting about husbands,male “authority” (if you are male, then are you surely a sorry example of one). You do realize that “longing for a husband” came about as the result of the sin of Adam and Eve, right? That in the Eden god created, the the the perfection of God’s creation which was Eden, there was no sin and so no “longing for a husband”. So I vote to go witht he example of God’s perfect Eden—where there are no sputtering silly men who spout over their no-existent authority.

Men who go around spouting and sputtering silly ideas about their “authority” and about lesbians and a “homosexual agenda” are usually either single (being unable to attract a woman or maintain a relationship with a woman), gay themselves, and/or impotent with women. You are probably all three. And of couse, such men are fearful,ignorant bigots. Men who go around spouting and sputtering their hatred toward gay people are usually mentally ill, self-laothing gay men who have not been able to aceept themselves for who they are. You sound like you have been through some failed “reparative therapy”.

And of course, you are making Christianity look haven for bigots, for the ignorant, for the intolerant, for anti-Semites, for the mentally ill, for the paranoid, conspiracy theory nut jobs. No wonder the truly intelligent RC has fled the pews. RCism now is the haven for the gullible and weak-minded.

I pity you.

Posted by Patt on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 3:51 PM (EDT):

A few complaints.
I wish the senders of the posts had their names HIGHLIGHTED instead of blending in with their posted comment.
Second, It would be nice if this discussion had an ENDING—I guess some people insist on having the last word and when two of them meet and want the FINAL WORD—well this may be going on until Judgment Day.
I have asked not to be notified but they keep blasting me with a fresh comment.
One could “offer it up” and stop posting—but that likelihood seems REMOTE. OK.
Continue flapping and blabbing.

Posted by Mark Shea on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 3:42 PM (EDT):

“That you call Paul a “nut job” further exposes your Lesbianism and homosexual agenda…. You are accursed.”

Oh, for heaven’s sake, just *stop* will ya? You’re an embarrassment to the Church. How on earth does Jewish rejection of St. Paul testimony prove *lesbianism*? Sheesh.

And dude:

597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

All sinners were the authors of Christ’s Passion

598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that “sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.“389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391
Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392

Casting Crowns: I’ve never been able to figure out if you are a Protestant or a Catholic who doesn’t know he’s a Protestant. But please consider learning what the Church teaches before you continue to make Her look stupid. Lisa’s Jewish triumphalism does not require mind-reading and curses to be rebutted. Meanwhile, a little courtesy wouldn’t hurt, even if she’s obnoxious.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 3:13 PM (EDT):

When all else fails, play the “race” card to intimidate those who do not fall in line with your agenda. By calling someone an anti-semite is SOP to get people to back down. Sorry, Honey, it’s not going to happen. You have been exposed as a cultural Jew (assuming you really are Jewish). You don’t even believe your own Torah nor your prophets.
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That you call Paul a “nut job” further exposes your Lesbianism and homosexual agenda. In marriage, ultimately only “one” can lead and that would be the husband. He is not to be dictatorial but love his wife as Christ loves his church. Radical feminism and Lesbianism reject this thinking. No wonder you rebel so much about Paul (one of your own people).
.
You are acursed as described in Genesis. “Your longing (that’s you, Kaiser woman) shall be for your husband.” When you seek to usurp male authority either in your marriage or in the church Paul says this is demonic.
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And Paul was also an “observant Jew” —one of your own who was called out of darkness into the light. So what’s your excuse?

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 2:54 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

It is truly amazing that you repeatedly and so boldly dipslay your ignorance (which you seem to be proud of).

And again you insist on your islly insults and unsuccessfully trying to demean me by calling “the Kaiser woman”. you just amke your self look silly. And of course you do successfully demean christianity by such pettiness. If you are an example of a “christain”, it is no wonder, christains and RCs are fleeing the pews.

Here is what you do not get about Judaism: Judaism is an evolving tradition. Heck, even the orthodox recently ordained women as clergy. One of the immutable rules of creation is change. What does not adpat dies. So, yes, Judaism sees itself as A path to God, but not the only path to God. so you are totally and comltely wrong and ignorant to call this view “apostasy”. What it is you displaying your ignorance.

And I don’t know where you this weird “entertainment filed” stuff. Sounds like you are an anti-Semite.

Next, there is no “homosexual agenda”. that is the stuff of paranoid, taliban, shiite right wing RCs who refuse to understand that ALL Americans have equal rights under the law.

As for Paul and the “doctrine of demons”—who cares what Paul thinks??? Paul was a bit of nut job. Again, America is NOT an RC or christian theocracy. America is a Democracy, where every voice is equal. that is NOT a “Kaiser” position: it IS the reality of life in the USA.

If you do not think God is the God of diversity who have not been paying attention. did god create one kind of tree??, One kind of fish??, One kind of flower??? One skin color for people???? It is only recently in the history of the world, that we homo sapiens (that means wise men in Latin) have been the only humans in the worls. for tens of thousands of yrs, homo sapiens and neanderthals co-existed. Many homo sapiens still carry neanderthal DNA (Casting Crowns apparently is one such person). Note that our solar system ahs 9 very diverse planets. So if you think God’s creation is not diverse, then I am sorry you are wallowing in your ignorance.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 1:59 PM (EDT):

[“God is the God of diversity (look at the diversity of creation), and so there are diverse paths to God.”]
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This Kaiser woman violates her own “so-called” Jewish faith. Hollywood and other Jews in the entertainment field think this. Her Jewish Torah doesn’t support this view in the least. This is total apostacy even by Jewish standards. Thus she is nothing but a total fraud masquerading as a Jew.
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[“God is the God of diversity.”]
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Code for the homosexual agenda and Lesbianism which is anti Christianity—but especially so toward the Catholic church. The Kaiser position has been exposed by Paul as doctrine of demons.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 1:52 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

Not certain why you are quoting eleven passages of scripture. You do know that Hebrew scripture is extensive and diverse. You cite stuff without context—and why cherry pick verses? Those 11 verse are just that—11 verses among thousands.

Jew have existed for 4500 yrs, we exist now and will continue to exist as long as God wills it. We live all over the world, including in the land that God promised us and gave us. Our covenant with God is ongoing, unbroken, valid.

If you don’t like that—too bad. If you do not want to be a Jew—that is fine with us. We do not seek converts. You are welcome to abide by any faith tradition you want—just do not seek to impose it upon us. Please note the RC bishops have started a “New Evangelization” to get RCs back in the pews because the bishops have a hard enough time getting catholics to believe what the RCC teaches. The RCC hierarchy cannot even convince its own people of the “truth” of what it teaches. So obviously, the RCC has no credibility re “true faith” with us Jews.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 1:25 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

There is nothing special about christianity—as the millions of Hindus, Mulsims, Jews, Buddhists, et al will attest. America is was NOT founded as a Christian nation and IS not a Christain nation. Christianity should not be the sole influence of American values, morals, laws, regulations, policies. Christianity has to learn it is but one voice among many in the US. America is NOT a Christain or RC theocracy. Thankfully America is a nation of diverse faith traditions—all with an equal voice.

Sorry if you do not like the fact that there are many paths to God. the “gospels” of but the scripture of one group of people—who have no right to impose their beleifs on the rest of us. People who are not Christains do not care what you believe about “coming to the Father”. Our beliefs are equal to those Christianity. Christianity is NOT superior to or triumphant over any other faith tradition. God is the God of diversity (look at the diversity of creation), and so there are diverse paths to God. Your fuming, pouting, stamping your feet and shouting “christains are special, christians are special”, does not the fact that christians are NOT special. And have no right to impose their beliefs on all Americans.

Heck, Christians cannot even agree among themselves as to what Christainity is or what its central beliefs are. that is why are there dozens and dozens of Christian denominations

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 1:09 PM (EDT):

[“What matters is living a good life, helping to make the world a better place.”]
.
Exposed!—The religion of post-modern liberal secularists who seek to marginalize Christianity and eventually eradicate all Christian influence from American society.
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These people proffer there are “many” paths to God and they are all equal. More political correctness. Of course this is diametrically *contrary* to the gospel of Jesus Christ. “No man comes to the Father but by me.”

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 12:48 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

As per usual you peddle your vile, baseless, ignorant accusations against me. That is your tacit admission that I am correct in what I say. You cannot refute ehat I say so you resort to baseless accustations and insults. And calling me “the Kaiser woman” just further indicates that you know you cannot refute anything I have posted and so feel insulting me make you look “smart”.

The “liar” is not Jesus, but those who put fictional words in his mouth (the writers of the gospel).

Also you boldy post your ignorance of Judaism. The covenant between God and Jews has existed for 4,500 yrs—it is ongoing, valid, unbroken. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Your opinion aobut that covenant or the opinion of any RC or any Christian about the ongoing, valid, unbroken covenant between God and Jews is just that, an opinion and has NO impact on the validity of the covenant. We Jews exist in the world becasue God wills it, beacuse God loves us, because god keeps God’s promises to us. too bad if you don’t like it or believe. Your opinions and your beliefs about it are irrelevant.

There are 3 Abrahamic tradition: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. God ahs separate ongoing covenants with each tradition. Each tradition is equal tot he others, none is better than or triumphant over the others. God loves and offers God’s love and grace to Jews, Christains and Muslims. Christians are not special or unique and do not have sole access to God’s love and grace.

As for “Peter”, the writer of the epistle was NOT the apostle Peter. Not even the RCC teaches that. You needd to study up on what the RCC bishops publsih about the Bible. The US bishops publish the New American Bible Revised Edition—approved by the Vatican—on their website. The apostle Peter was an illiterate fisherman and wrote no “epistle”. So not only are you ignorant of Judaisn=m, you are ignorant of your own faith tradition. No amount of your weeird “insults” towrd e will change your ignorance.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 12:32 PM (EDT):

Ed,

Sheer numbers mean nothing. After your church teaches that it began with a group of 12 apostles. And int he US the fastest grwoing “denomination” is that of people who have no affiliation to any faith tradition. What matters is living a good life, helping to make the world a better place—whether one is a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Jain, Christian or RC.

And no, I do NOT consider nonJews to be ‘deluded fools”. That is a weired assumption for you to make and one that has no basis in fact. Judaism considers itself A path to God but NOT the only path to God.

Posted by chris awo on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 11:00 AM (EDT):

Listen today to what he says:
8 “Don’t be stubborn, as your ancestors were at Meribah,
as they were that day in the desert at Massah.
9 There they put me to the test and tried me,
although they had seen what I did for them.
10 For forty years I was disgusted with those people.
I said, ‘How disloyal they are!
They refuse to obey my commands.’
11 I was angry and made a solemn promise:
‘You will never enter the land
where I would have given you rest.’” (Psalm 95)

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jul 12, 2013 12:54 AM (EDT):

@Ed: She’s been peddling her wares for some time now but she is really a bigot. She doesn’t take all Christians to task, only the RCC. She’s likely still carrying a childhood tantrum from Catholic grammar school and despises having her plaid school uniform Jumper measured by the nuns to see how high above her knees it was. No doubt she was last one picked for Volleyball at recess and still holds that against the Church.
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The earlier (and oft repeated and boring) of the Kaiser posts make reference to Jesus being an observant Jew. Big deal. Most all Jews were back in the day. Certainly that’s not true now. The “difference” is that Jesus claimed to be God (in the flesh). The Jew either embraces Jesus or rejects Him. The Jew of today is faced with same dilemma of 2,000 years ago. There is no salvation, no covenant for the “individual” Jew who rejects Jesus as the “Christ.” This understanding for the Jew remains the stumbling block Paul discusses which separates the Jew from God to this day. The covenant is that Messiah would come through Jewish lineage. However, there is no covenant for the Jew who rejects the Messiah. The covenant is not a personal convent between God and the individual Jew. The covenant is with national Israel. Jews who think they are “special” individually as a birthright are under Satanic deception. God made a covenant with Abraham—because Abraham trusted God. Abraham obeyed God. How many Jews today trust God and obey God?
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Of course the discussion is pointless if the Jew thinks Jesus was just a human being who did and said some good things. This Kaiser woman thinks the gospel is made up of make-believe fairly tales written by others decades later. However, in the case of 1st and 2nd Peter, we know Peter walked with Jesus and wrote down his comments. Peter even states “We were eyewitnesses” to these events.
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Since Jesus claimed to be God (in the flesh) the Jew who rejects Him does so at his/her own peril because the Jew is calling Jesus a liar. Jesus said such a Jew who would deny Him is from his (or her) father the devil —eg “Kaiser.” Such a Jew is under Satanic deception. And the truth is not in that Jew.
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The continual life problem for this Kaiser woman is a nagging one. Once you have heard the gospel you have heard the truth. And as Paul (also a Jew) says: You are thus without excuse. Jesus didn’t waste time with people like this Kaiser woman. They preferred the darkness to light. He preached the truth and moved on. This Kaiser woman is no more than the dust from which Jesus tells us to shake our feet from.

Posted by Ed on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 8:42 PM (EDT):

Lisa,

There are 2.1 billion Christians, 1 billion Hindus, 1 billion Muslims, and a teensy 14 million Jews. Judging by these numbers, Jesus Christ(a Jew) is winning more believers among both Jews and Gentiles. You probably consider all non-Jews(7 billion or so) as deluded fools, but maybe you should look in the mirror. Have nice day!

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 5:59 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

I am not looking for anyone to “come to my side”, but I will attempt to answer your questions:

1. I don’t know that Jesus succeed. He was a compelling teacher of Torah. And beyond that he had a great PR team and good timing: Peter and Paul and the writers of the gospel were gret PR guys. And new religions were all the rage in the Roman Empire. And of course Jesus is not the only perosn to have millions that love and follow him: the Buddha and Mohammad come to come. They too have “succeeded”. One does not have to be God to inspire millions. Also, please not that there are millions of Jews in the world as well. There are millions of Hindus in the world. So in short, there is nothing unique about Jesus or Christianity. And as I mentioned to Sam aboive, Buddhism, Hinudims and Judaims are all older than Christainity, all still exist int he world, and continue to attract followers.

2. Even educated people can sucuumb to delusions. Paul is not unique in that way. Note the numbers of college educated, intelligent people who follow Scientology, have abandoned all for it and have never met L. Ron Hubbard in person. No living Buddhist has ever met the Buddha, yet many abandon all (become Buddhist monks and nuns) for the iterant preacher they never met. And I am sure there are other examples in history. Again, there is nothing unique about Paul.

3. Hebrew scripture defines who the messiah will be and Jesus does not meet the definition. Also, there may be more than one messiah. Also, there may be no messiah, but God may usher in a messianic age.

4. God has a clear, ongoing, unbroken, valid covenant of love with us Jews—and it has never and will never involve a human being called Jesus.

Posted by chris awo on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 5:41 PM (EDT):

Lisa,
I do not want to overflog the definition of who is a jew, especially since i (an African) consider myself as belonging to the tribe of Judah(and his brothers) at least in my spirituality. I suppose it is my democratic right to pledge allegiance to whoever i am inspire by.
However if you can explain to me in a reasonable fashion the following questions i will willingly come over to your side:
1) how did a simple carpenter; an itinerant Rabbi, who preached for 18 months or so, come to inspire so many down the years, even till now, that millions love him so and are willing to follow in his footsteps. In short what caused Jesus to succeed?
2) Why would Saul of Tarsus, an educated elite, with wonderful prospects decide to abandon all that and follow an obscure preacher he never even met in real life?
3)Have you ever directly asked the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to show you a clear and incontrovertible sign(s) that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed his Son and the one we should all listen to?

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 4:55 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

Also, what is this weird term “freeborn Jew” that you are using???? It is certainly not a term used in Judaism. It seems you do not have an understanding of or knowledge about Judaism or Hebrew scripture, but jsut make things up and take things out of context. If you had any knowledge of scriopture you would know that idolatry and repentance are a constant theme in scripture and not just the actions of two kings.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 4:40 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

You seem to have misinterpreted my comments re idolatry. If you read scripture, you will see that many Jews, including Aaron, the brother of Moses, who became the first high priest, helped led the effort to construct the golden calf. Idolatry is a constant theme in the history of the Jew. However, if you read scripture, you will find thar the Israelites and the Jews also constantly repent, constantly reject idolatry—constantly reaffirm their love for God, reaffirm theire covenant with God and that God reaffirms God’s covenant with the Israelites and the Jews. With the Jews and the Israelites, idolatry is eposidic, sporadic. But there is always a reaffirmation of the covenant with the God of Abraham, the God of Sarah, the God of Isaac, the God of Rivkah, the God of Jacob, the God of Leah and the God of Rachel.

So I will restate, if a Jew worshipe Jesus,a human being, as God, and that person still insists on calling himself/herself a Jew then that is idolatry. It also means that Jew is no longer a Jew (because of the ongoing persistent belief/action) of worshipping Jesus as God has removed that person from Judaism. That person is a Christian. Any Gentile who worships Jesus as God is a Christian. Jews do not worhsip Jesus as God—becasue that IS idolatry for anyone who says he/she is a Jew.

Posted by chris awo on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 4:16 PM (EDT):

Lisa,
King Manasseh and King Amon worshiped foreign gods (e.g. Asherah and Manoj) instead of the God of their fathers. By your logic any freeborn jew, who by your definition, commits idolatry is not a jew. Therefore King Manasseh and King Amon of the southern kingdom of Judah are not jews. What are they then?

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 3:31 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

Your comments about kings seem to be out of the blue. What are you talking about and why? Please give some context to your questions.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 3:29 PM (EDT):

Ed,

Your comment that Christianity has to be true becasue it has survived 2,000 yrs cracks me up! So the age of a faith a tradition is the criterion of its veracity??? If that is the case you should be a Hindu. Hinduism dates back to about 1000BCE (Before the Common Era). Or you should be a Jew. Judaism is 4,500 yrs old. Like many RCs, you seem to have no clue about history, no clue about other faith tradtions. You view the world through the narrow lens of RCism and never palce it in the context of history. Please do some reading of history.

Posted by chris awo on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 2:28 PM (EDT):

Lisa,
Was King Manasseh a Jew or not? Was King Amon a Jew or not? If not, what then do you call them?

Posted by Ed on Thursday, Jul 11, 2013 1:44 PM (EDT):

Lisa,
I seriously doubt Christianity would have survived 2000 years if it was based on a conspiracy of scriptural lies and deception. If the conspiracy of lies theory comforts you, then fine. But I will put my faith in Jesus Christ.

“For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.(Romans 3:22-24) Amen!

Posted by Montenegro on Wednesday, Jul 10, 2013 10:47 PM (EDT):

Jimmy -

I find your article quite oversimplifies the situation. I don’t think you can rule out cases in which people die suddenly, without “having time” to repent. Nor can you rule out cases in which people have been taught as children that sex outside of marriage (just to take one example) is a mortal sin, and then conveniently choose to “forget” this as adults.

This is a topic better suited to a priest than to a layman.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jul 10, 2013 1:39 PM (EDT):

Ed,

There is name for “Jews” who beleive Jesus was God and that name is Christian. No Jew beleive that Jesus was God, becaue that would be the grave sin of idolatry.

As for daying for one’s faith, pleae know that many, many people from various faith traditions have died for their faith. For example, the RCC during the Crusades and the Inquistion murdered thousands and thousands of Jews and Muslims, other Christians because of their beliefs—because the RCC deemed their faith to be “false”. So if you believe that dying for one’s faith makes that faith true, then you have to concede that Judaism, Islam and the all the Protestant faiths are true.

Jesus was a compelling teacher of Torah. What IS fiction is everything the gospel writers wrote about Jesus as God or words they attributed to Jesus idnetifying himslef as God or messiah or savior. those things are just NOT true. And I am willing to die for that belief. So my faith must be true.

Posted by Ed on Wednesday, Jul 10, 2013 12:45 PM (EDT):

Lisa Kaiser,
Have you heard of Messianic Judaism? Thousands of Jews have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It’s dishonest to say that no Jew would believe in Jesus.
The majority of early Christians were Jews who died for their faith(Peter, Paul, etc.) I find it hard to believe they would die for a fraud and a lie, which is what you seem to consider Jesus Christ.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Jul 10, 2013 12:19 AM (EDT):

@Jan: Correct. But this problem will always exist. CINO’s think they are RC —so, in their mind they are RC. They certainly do not consider they are Protestant. Even if they are not practicing Catholics, they still feel they are Catholic rather than having no faith or no church at all. You see this at Christmas and Easter. The huge attendance at Mass rather than from a regular Sunday is mostly due to people who think they are RC but never come on the other Sunday’s of the year.
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In some ways, they are like people who say “I’m spiritual, but not religious.” This means they do not like anyone really having authority over them. They fail to understand their REAL authority is not the church per se but the Lord Himself. And from the beginning, we know that idea is rooted in Satanic deception. It’s rebellion against the Creator of all things.

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2013 10:21 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns:
Unfortunately, there are many “Catholics in name only (CINOs).” I wish these CINOs would stop calling themselves Catholic. They neither follow the Church’s teachings nor do they desire to follow the Church’s teachings. Many, however, still receive Holy Communion whenever they are at Mass for a wedding, etc.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2013 5:36 PM (EDT):

@Tina and Jan: Clearly, if one is strong in the Catholic faith, the couple you cite would only wish to be married in a Catholic service. The same is true that Protestants and Evangelicals would likewise desire a Church service by their Pastor in their Church. Many people raised Catholic but are only a part-time Catholic now or “sort of” call themselves Catholic would be willing to marry in a civil service by a Judge or Court Clerk. Such a person is very likely not a practicing RC. They say they are RC because that’s all they know just like when you fill out a form if you are going to have surgery at the hospital. It’s clear this couple (or one of them) is not that strong in their faith
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One can always be married later in the Catholic church if the Lord leads you to do so. A sacramental marriage, though, is the promise you make to God—not to a City Clerk. You’ve got to ask yourself, though, how serious do I consider this event to be? Since this is likely the most important decision of your life and *if* God is important to you, surely you wish to include Him and His blessings over you. If the island setting is more important than God—then that is the choice of the couple. Life is filled with all sorts of choices.

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2013 3:39 PM (EDT):

Tina:
1. Does this child claim to be a practicing Catholic? Every adult child is bound to his own conscience, not to his parents’ consciences.

My baptized Catholic sister claimed to be a practicing Catholic yet she chose to be married in another faith ceremony without church approval. She personally chose to believe that it was not a mortal sin to do this. Due to inclement weather, I happily did not attend her wedding. Did my parents who are practicing Catholics commit a mortal sin by attending her wedding? I don’t think so. My parents made it very clear to her that they did not approve of her choice to marry outside the Catholic Church. By attending her wedding, they supported their daughter as a valued daughter deserving of their love. They were not approving of her decision to marry outside the Catholic Church. She did have her marriage convalidated a few years later because her conscience bothered her until she did.

My baptized Catholic niece, who has not been a practicing Catholic for many years and has no clue what the faith teaches, recently got married and I did thoroughly enjoy attending her wedding. She no longer identifies herself as a Catholic and has no plans to be one. I did not commit a mortal sin by attending her wedding.

2. This I do know: The USA government and its agencies are extremely coercive in their financial “humanitarian” and “arms-related” relationships with other nations and so they continually seek to force their godless secular humanist agenda on the whole world.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2013 3:00 PM (EDT):

@Tina: The couple is making the decision to marry, not the parents. How would this be a mortal sin for the parents? The marriage is legal, it’s just not a “Catholic” marriage. There are plenty of marriages where one party is Catholic but they were married in civil ceremony. Later, the couple (even if one is not RC)—they can be married in a Catholic ceremony if they want to. No one has committed any sin.
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Regarding your 2nd question, obviously this Priest is not up on current events. Obama is giving lots of $$ away to countries in which abortion is legal as did Clinton.

Posted by Tina on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2013 2:03 PM (EDT):

Can anyone answer these questions for me please.

Is it true…
In a recent sermon, the Priest said….. As a Catholic parent, for example, if your child elected to be married at a destination (say island), and the parent supports the decision, and goes to the wedding, they commit mortal sin; because that child should be married in the catholic church, or at a church of another demonization that was given approval.“

2. The Priest also commented during another sermon, that we are not to be fooled, the US will not support any country, in the way of financial or other ways, if that country does not support abortion rights.

Posted by Jan on Monday, Jul 8, 2013 5:22 PM (EDT):

vito:

RE: [[Because I hope that you realise that this would lead to the only logical conclusion that the same conscience should automatically tell them to leave the church that promulgates/allows/tolerates entrinsic evil and eventually join the “correct” church/religion, of which in this age of information it is, of course, impossible to be unaware of? (this of course, would imply that they are using their judgement to judge their church/religion, instead of allowing the church to form their conscience and obeying it, i.e. they would be placing their own judgement above that of their church)]]

Only God can correctly judge each individual’s degree of culpability for his sinful action OR his sinful refusal to act in a righteous manner when he knows he should.

James 4:17 “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.”

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

We must all continually pray/ask for wisdom from God:

James 1:2-8 “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.”

Watching “Dancing with the Stars” or doing some other such activity with one’s time and thereby neglecting to cultivate a personal relationship with God and His Church will not “let him off the hook” unless he is mentally disabled through no fault of his own. I’ve actually seen a Catholic Christian at a restaurant wearing a T-shirt advertizing “Two and a Half Men.” He’s in church every week and enjoys his turn as Eucharistic Minister.

When a person is purposefully cultivating a personal relationship with God as his first priority in order to please God, he will soon gain the necessary wisdom and will then choose to make lifestyle changes which reflect his new-found wisdom.

Also, I am definitely not saying that spending some of one’s time watching good TV shows or morally neutral TV shows and/or participating in other rest and relaxation activities is evil. Everyone needs helpful, restful R&R; but no one is given liberty to indulge in any type of R&R that harms the soul.

1 Peter 2:15-16 “For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.”

Once a person knows that his church is in error, he should leave it. Many converts to Catholicism, including former Protestant pastors, have judiciously done this very thing after they realized that their churches were founded by men and not by God. They have joined the Catholic Church even though their decisions have caused serious hardships to themselves and their families. God will richly reward them if they persevere in Jesus’ Catholic Church until they die.

Acts 5:29 “But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.”

Jesus Christ empowered only one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church and it is the Catholic Church and it has the bishop of Rome as His representative on earth and it is he alone who has possession of the keys of the kingdom of heaven given to him by Jesus Christ through apostolic succession.

To those Catholic leaders that Jesus put in charge of His Church, He states:

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.””

Posted by vito on Monday, Jul 8, 2013 6:10 AM (EDT):

Correction: in my last sentense I meant “if you do not believe that the ARE responsible”

Posted by vito on Monday, Jul 8, 2013 6:08 AM (EDT):

Jan,
Are you saying that people of other religions and other Christian denominations are supposed to figure it out by themselves, informed by the conscience,that contraception is evil, despite their church, (also culture, society, school, parents, government etc etc) saying exactly the opposite thing? Because I hope that you realise that this would lead to the only logical conclusion that the same conscience should automatically tell them to leave the church that promulgates/allows/tolerates entrinsic evil and eventually join the “correct” church/religion, of which in this age of information it is, of course, impossible to be unaware of? (this of course, would imply that they are using their judgement to judge their church/religion, instead of allowing the church to form their conscience and obeying it, i.e. they would be placing their own judgement above that of their church)

Otherwise, if you do not believe that they are not responsible to reach the correct conclusion on contraception by themselves, in contradiction to the teachings of their church and society, then we come to my original concuusion: they are off the hook.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Sunday, Jul 7, 2013 4:02 PM (EDT):

@midwestlady: [“The biggest problem is that a huge number of Catholics are not converted to Christianity. They sound like it, but they’re not. And a large number of them actually hate the idea of it.
.
That’s an interesting comment but it cannot go unchallenged. Please explain (in full) what you mean by your statement.

Posted by Jan on Sunday, Jul 7, 2013 12:30 PM (EDT):

vito:

It is true that Catholics are held to a higher standard due to the sacramental graces they have been given and so they will be judged according to this higher standard.

Luke 12:47-48 NKJV
“And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”

However, the people of “other religions” or “no religion” are not simply “off the hook.” Every person is born with a conscience and so it is up to him/her to take responsibility and form his/her conscience according to God’s commands.

Romans 2:14-16
“for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”

John 8:7-9
“So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”

So-called “ignorant” or “unaware” people are not simply “off the hook” for their evil actions:

CCC:
“1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin. In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”

The remedy for this type of ignorance/unawareness:

Acts 24:16
“This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.”

Posted by vito on Sunday, Jul 7, 2013 1:57 AM (EDT):

Catholics are. But not people of other relligions or no religion who are unaware of the alleged evil of contraception, remarriage etc. They’re off the hook.

Posted by Jenny on Saturday, Jul 6, 2013 7:50 PM (EDT):

For real, Danielle! Why would someone just assume that? Maybe people just go around talking about it all the time.

Posted by midwestlady on Saturday, Jul 6, 2013 7:40 PM (EDT):

Excuses, excuses. The biggest problem is that a huge number of Catholics are not converted to Christianity. They sound like it, but they’re not. And a large number of them actually hate the idea of it.

Posted by vito on Saturday, Jul 6, 2013 3:46 AM (EDT):

of course they are going to hell. 99 per cent of Catholics of the relevant age use contraception, add those that masturbate, miss Sunday mass, have or procure abortions, divorce, have sex before or outside marriage or merely look lustfully at another human being…

Mr Shea, to be an atheist is not easy. It takes a lot of faith (or gullibility) to believe that the universe created itself from nothing.

Atheism is illogical because you cannot prove a negative. Agnosticism is only excusable temporarily, because if God MIGHT exist, one MUST ask Him to show himself — and this is a prayer that does not go unanswered.

†

Posted by Danielle on Friday, Jul 5, 2013 3:47 PM (EDT):

I don’t understand a person that looks around their Church and assumes everyone is “contracepting”. That is just plain sad.

Posted by ralph on Tuesday, Jul 2, 2013 6:21 PM (EDT):

you have overlooked some pretty important things Jimmy. https://vimeo.com/20519632
https://vimeo.com/20525760

Posted by tom on Tuesday, Jul 2, 2013 9:03 AM (EDT):

Where does Cardinal Dolan end up after his obvious untruth about hiding church funds from abuse victims in Milwaukee? His “malarkey” is “malarkey.”

Posted by Mark Shea on Tuesday, Jul 2, 2013 1:34 AM (EDT):

Naomi: Are you, like, a plant by some Christian group, posing as an atheist to make atheists look like self-contradictory condemning people with absolutely no sense of irony or self-awareness?

Posted by naomi on Monday, Jul 1, 2013 7:34 AM (EDT):

Islam is a spinoff religion from Christianity, which is a spinoff from Judaism. All have the same vicious child abusing god. Spelling god with a lower case g is not a sin.
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You do judge others and hold yourself above everyone else because you think everyone who isn’t catholic is damned and unworthy of your god’s “love.” Why would anyone want the “love” of a control freak?
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I am not in “sin”—I don’t even agree with the concept of “sin.” The very concept of sin is judgmental.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 5:46 PM (EDT):

@nAoMi: [“Your god is just another storm god with a vicious temper.”]
.
Must be so. He must prefer you live eternally outside His love. That’s why He sent His own Son to pay for your sins (and mine). But you have to be willing to accept His free gift.
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Not sure who you’ve been getting your information from but you have a distorted view of Jesus Christ. You have not been told the truth. The “god” with the vicious temper is Allah. Yes, small “g” because he is a god which doesn’t exist.
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As for judging others, no we do not judge others. There is a difference between judging others and identifying sin as outline in Scripture. What we can surely do is judge sin. The gospel, though, is the Good News. The Good News is that a way has been made out of sin for every man and woman by the only one capable to make that promise —Jesus.
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A way out. A way from the penalty of sin. Doesn’t that sound like Good News? A God which doesn’t have a vicious temper?

Posted by nAoMi on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 12:39 PM (EDT):

That’s rather juvenile thinking, right? A Catholic adult who actually thinks like this? Someone likely who never graduated mentally from Sr. Mary’s 3rd grade Catechism class. The same person must also think they’re going to heaven so long as a priest is present at the time of death to issue the Sacrament of the Sick (aka “Last Rites”). What happens if a priest is not present? Or—if you did not attend 9 consecutive First Friday Masses at sometime in your life?
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That’s exactly my point. They find excuses to use contraception, etc., and the statistics prove it. As for judging others, look in the mirror then confess to your priest and ask your god to forgive you.

Posted by nAoMi on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 12:24 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns—
I’ve made typos, but “god” with a lowercase “g” is not one of them.
Your god is just another storm god with a vicious temper.

Posted by Mary De Roe on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 12:19 PM (EDT):

Chris is right—most of the Catholic clergy in Rome are going to hell. The pope is unfit for his office—he either doesn’t know what’s going on in front of him, or he approves of it by turning his head.
.I think in the end what we must do is both love our opponents in this struggle and assume that love motivates our opponents.
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We must assume that our opponents aren’t out to attack the Catholic Church but they see the Church as an impediment to love. I disagree. I disagree vehemently. But that’s how they see it. And as long as the Church stands in the way of what they see as people’s right to have their love codified by society, they will attack it.
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Mind you, exhibiting love may very well be a handicap in a cultural struggle. Dehumanizing opponents is a pretty good tactic that obviously works well while assuming love and treating opponents like they are children of God limits your options a bit. But the desire to win the “battle” sometimes overwhelms us and we do and say things we might regret later.
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But here’s the thing - we are not called to deliver the United States of America to heaven. We are responsible for what we do. We must love our opponents and assume that their anger comes from a place of real frustration and pain. It’s possible that we may not, despite every effort, be able to define marriage in our society but we can work on our own marriage and be examples of God’s love.

Posted by Jan on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 9:58 AM (EDT):

The Word of God is a Divine Person. He and His words cannot be contained within a book.

“John 21:25 But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

This is one reason why He established a Church and gave its leaders His authority to act in His place in perpetuity until He returns at His Second Coming to judge the living and the dead.

“Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

The Bible is without error regarding teachings about faith and morals. Much symbolism is used in the Bible and is not meant to be taken literally.

Also, a book cannot authorize itself and it cannot give itself authority. It cannot think. It cannot act.

Posted by ANNE on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 9:36 AM (EDT):

Question: ” Are most Catholics in America going to hell? “
Answer: Those Catholics who die in the state of mortal sin are going to hell.
Everyone has heard of the Bible. Literate persons who do not take the time to read it have a problem.
Many but not all Catholics in the USA have heard of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”. These persons who do not take the time to read it have a problem.
WHY problems - because:
CCC ” 1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. “
&
CCC: ” 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good,
or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.
In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”

Posted by ANNE on Sunday, Jun 30, 2013 7:38 AM (EDT):

There are 4 things that are a must read for Catholics, so that they will know their Faith accurately:
1. A Catholic Bible;
2. “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”;
3. Code of Canon Law;
4. GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) for the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
(The CCC, Canon Law, and GIRM can all be found in book form and also on the Vatican web site.)
There are no excuses for the literate.
“ In this Year of Faith let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” - Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
* * * * SPECULATION and assumption is not necessary for salvation, and can lead to error.

Posted by Terah James on Saturday, Jun 29, 2013 5:48 PM (EDT):

Chris - I have not yet seen the news, but I did hear that another scandal was brewing in Rome, and it could have been why Pope Benedict handed the reins over to Pope Francis to handle more efficiently. As for your question if most Catholic clergy will go to hell: only God knows one’s heart.

I am a Catholic convert. Catholic clergy will not be held to a higher standard than other clergy, Protestant and Evangelical Christian alike. But ayone who is in ordained ministry WILL face a harsher judgement than the rest of us; that is in the Bible.

The key is this:
Do they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and the Son of God? That He died for our sin, rose and ascended into Heaven and that He’s coming again? If they do, great. The devil also believes that; the devil is going to hell.

So then, do they OBEY Jesus, making Him their Lord and Master (“you are bought, with a price”) is Jesus on the throne in their hearts?

Repenting and turning to Jesus to save us puts us in the Family of God, and makes Jesus’ Father, Our Father, giving us access to the Throne Room in Heaven, where the Holy Spirit helps us pray, and commune with God.

Anyone that abides IN JESUS will want to draw closer to Him, by reading and learning His word, in the Bible: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

If clergymen around the world have no desire to know, love and serve God, and Jesus is NOT on the throne of their hearts, and instead their focus in on *this world* and on what they can get here (money, sex and power), and if they have hardened hearts and stiff necks towards God, mocking Him by their lifestyles they know God hates, then, yes, those men in the Curia—no matter how high their position is—will go to Hell, and for eternity.

God is not mocked. If they dance the tune, with no remorse or change of their behavior, the piper will be paid.

It will be the same for those Protestant leaders in apostate churches, those that ordain women priests and homosexual bishops, teaching gullible people in their pews that it’s good and acceptable to do both.

That’s why we need to read our Bibles, and meet God for ourselves! We are His children. He is our Father & Jesus is our Brother & our Advocate with the Father. Until everyone reads and learns the Bible well, we ought to shelve all other books, even those left to us by saints known to be great or small. God’s word is 100% without error, and Holy Spirit inspired, and the whole Body of Christ can agree upon that.

Posted by chris awo on Saturday, Jun 29, 2013 10:41 AM (EDT):

As I am typing this post my hands are shaking. I am in two minds, so to speak, but we have to face squarely the biggest problem confronting us Catholics which is the problem at the headquarters i.e. the Roman Curia. Yet another priest arrested for corruption in Rome. The gay issue is still simmering with no clear solution.
Why don’t we ask the real urgent question? Namely, Are Most Catholic Clergy (particularly in the Roman Curia) going to Hell?
On this feast of the Roman martyrs S.S. Peter and Paul lets pray, no.
Lord Jesus help your holy Church!

Posted by Bernard McManus on Saturday, Jun 29, 2013 4:33 AM (EDT):

I think the people who engage in adultery are fully aware on their actions and that the Church clearly teaches that these actions are sinful, mortally sinful.

That’s why the Sacrament of Penance is also called the Sacrament of the Dead - it brings souls back to life.

Posted by Bill Foley on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 9:56 PM (EDT):

Terah James: I hope this is your real name because I have little use for those who lack the intestinal fortitude to comment on the blogs using their full real names.

I assume that you are not a Catholic because you do not seem to know much about St. Alphonsus. He lived to the age of 91, and his life spanned most of the 18th century. More editions of his writings have been published than any other human being in history. His knowledge of the Bible was breathtaking; I would assume that he probably knew most of it by heart. He also seemed to have absorbed all of the writings of the Fathers of the Church, of the saints, of the spiritual masters, and of the saints from the Apostolic Age to his own time. All of this is evident from the myriad quotations in his books.

Since I am assuming that you are a non-Catholic, I do not wish to conduct a spiritual sparring match with you; however, I do wish to point out the following. St. Alphonsus knew the teaching of St. Paul thoroughly and he fully assented to the following from the Council of Trent: “When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving the inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.” He also agrees with the saying of St. Augustine: “God created man without his cooperation, but He will not save him without his cooperation.” Once man has accepted God’s grace, which is a participation in the Divine Life, man still suffers from the wounds of original sin; therefore, he must ask God for the actual graces to do the will of God and to progress toward full union with the Holy Trinity. The quote that I previously gave from St. Alphonsus was from a chapter dealing with this very “asking,” that is, prayer. If one does not pray, then one will not get the graces to do God’s will and will fall back into the hands of Satan.

If you are interested in how St. Alphonsus wrote about the teachings that deviated from the doctrine of the Catholic Church, you can read his History of Heresies and Their Refutation, which can be found on the Internet.

Posted by Terah James on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 8:15 PM (EDT):

Nothing is on par with the Bible. The Bible is God’s word. It is why we reverence the Bible, when it is read at Mass, and why we incense it, on special days as a sign of respect. The Bible is the Gold Standard of Measure, and Holy Spirit inspired.

About JPII - he may have done many good things. But no one is perfect, and his cause for sainthood aside, he refused to allow an investigation into the allegations made about his friend, Fr. Marcial Maciel, allegations proven true under Pope Benedict. He refused to even try to help nuns that were (maybe still are) being sexually exploited in parts of Africa, by priests that consider them safe sex partners.

Further, it was under JPII that our seminaries became infiltrated with homosexual clergy, and powerful women (many of them nuns) that drained our clergymen of their testosterone, leaving our church run by too many socially aware spiritual pygmies.

Why is Pope Francis now up to his ears in trying to clean up all the messes? It did not begin under Pope Benedict. He inherited much of it, and even as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, it was JPII and his men that called the shots. Adding to the mixture that JPII was indescriminate with whom he prayed (other faiths), & Houston: we have a problem that’s being ignored, due to the frenzy on the part of those that consider him to be “the greatest pope of all time” - meaning he was better than Peter?!! Sigh.

If people spent more time with their noses in the Bible, learning, it would make our church so much healthier. There’s hope. Till Jesus returns, or He calls us home. Tune into Catholic Answers tonight - rebroadcast. First hour. Very insightful. Patrick Madrid is guest host.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 8:12 PM (EDT):

@Bill Foley: That’s your problem,—or funeral. [“My applying and living out any Gospel teaching must be in accord with the teaching of the Catholic Church, that is, tradition, for me to be pleasing to Jesus Christ.”]
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These things always sound “nice.” Upon examination you would thus have stood with the Pharisees in the time of Jesus when He also questioned and often broke with church tradition. You would call Jesus a heretic.
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My comment was made in reference to “John D” who noted that priests never talk about sin. I agreed with him. Since you wish to defend priests who only teach the socialism gospel, you are free to do so. The gospel contains more than social aspects of only helping and loving one’s neighbor. For clergy to limit their mission to socialism alone is a false gospel taught by some who are false teachers. But don’t worry, Bill. Since I am an equal opportunist, this limitation of untruth exists in plenty of Protestant churches as well. All you need to see is the array of Protestant clergy hailing the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage and DOMA.

Posted by Bill Foley on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 7:49 PM (EDT):

To Casting Crowns: Your statement “Both are indicative of the current crop of weak and liberal USCCB socialists all appointed by JP2.” sounds just like something a subversive crypto-traditionalist would say. Blessed John Paul the Great will soon be both Saint John Paul the Great and a Doctor of the Church. He is arguably the greatest pope of all time.

But some of your comments regarding Tradition have almost a Protestant ring to them. Tradition is on par with the Bible. Number 10, paragraph one of the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation of the Second Vatican Council states: “Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, which is committed to the Church.” Paragraph three continues: “It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.” Paragraph two comments: “The task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” My comment is that we would not even know that the four Gospels are divinely inspired if it were not for the tradition and magisterium of the Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expounds this same teaching in Part One, Article 2, The Transmission of Divine Revelation, numbers 74 through 98. Article 3, Sacred Scripture, number 113 states: “Read the Scripture within ‘the living Tradition of the whole Church.’” My comment is that one must read the Bible while sitting in the lap of holy Mother Church. My applying and living out any Gospel teaching must be in accord with the teaching of the Catholic Church, that is, tradition, for me to be pleasing to Jesus Christ.

By the way, stop hiding under a pseudonym. Give us your real name.

Posted by Terah James on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 7:36 PM (EDT):

Lisa: Moses never did any miracles at all - rather, God did them all.

About St. Alphonsus: why do Catholics continually disregard St. Paul?

NO ONE “saves themselves”, most certainly, not “easily”. God only hears prayer THROUGH Jesus, our Advocate with the Father.

It happens through the Holy Spirit, from God’s grace, that quickens us. Prior to being given ‘ears to hear’ we are dead in the spirit. We are not sick, we are dead. Dead people cannot and do not pray.

So St. Alphonsus too, disregarded St. Paul. It’s like the whole Book of Romans is chopped liver. Just throw out the whole New Testament - they are pesky details & old news. No wonder our catechisis is so dismal.

I was listening to Catholic radio at the bottom of the first hour - about 3:35PM, and a woman called up with an excellent question about why Catholics (and so many priests & bishops) are just lukewarm, and not knowledgeable in the faith. Mentioning a new scandal in the Vatican, about a ring of teenage boys being used for sex by clerics, she asked about the connection and wondered what was being done to turn the tide to God-honoring morals in our church.

The guest was uneasy in answering the question, because she had a nervous laugh that would not stop. I plan to hear a rebroadcast of her answer because the question is a good one. Bottom line: a lack of sound teaching by educated clergymen and bishops is causing destruction to those souls in the pews, and that’s the topic of this blog.

It’s not only souls in the USA that are at risk, but souls worldwide are at risk, when they are *not* taught the wisdom of St. Paul, given to him directly from the Holy Spirit. It’s sad because these are people that are in church. It would be better to be a native on some desert island that never heard the Gospel, than to be in church Sunday after Sunday, and have a false sense of security, that if you’re Catholic, you’re guaranteed a place in Purgatory or at some point, in Heaven. St. Paul would weep.

Posted by Bill Foley on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 6:30 PM (EDT):

In the Way of Salvation and of Perfection the Doctor of the Church, Saint Alphonsus, has written on pages 430-431: “Let us conclude this first point by gathering from what we have said, that he who prays is certain to be saved; while he who prays not is certain to be damned. All the saints were saved and came to be saints by praying; all the accursed souls in hell were lost through the neglect of prayer; if they had prayed, it is certain that they would not have been lost. And this will be one of the greatest occasions of their anguish in hell, the thought that they might have saved themselves so easily; that they had only to beg God to help them, but that now the time is past when this could avail them.”

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 12:35 PM (EDT):

@nAoMi: [“Catholics use contraception, get abortions, divorce and marry again, commit murder, adultery, child abuse, blasphemy,and worse. They judge others while believing in a god that will forgive them anything.
.
That’s rather juvenile thinking, right? A Catholic adult who actually thinks like this? Someone likely who never graduated mentally from Sr. Mary’s 3rd grade Catechism class. The same person must also think they’re going to heaven so long as a priest is present at the time of death to issue the Sacrament of the Sick (aka “Last Rites”). What happens if a priest is not present? Or—if you did not attend 9 consecutive First Friday Masses at sometime in your life?
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It’s no different from the maturity level of a Protestant Christian who believes accepting Christ means “I’m saved” **and now I can live ‘as I please.’
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Both the Catholic and Protestant above are typical examples of living a stunted Christian life. Both have never grown in the faith. To some degree it is their own fault to have failed to persue any walk with Christ and rely upon “works” or pixie dust to obtain heaven. On the other hand, for such sweeping attitudes to prevail in both Catholicism and Protestantism, what does that say about the teachers? When do Catholic clergy or Protestant ministers really teach “truth.” They also will be held MORE accountable. For when you teach a gospel leaving some aspects out and only prefer to teach a “nice, friendly, and unoffending message,” you are teaching a compromised gospel—which is a false gospel. By any other terms, you are thus a false teacher whether one is the Archbiship of Cantebury, Catholic Bishop or local Pastor. When Jesus warned of false teachers, He meant inside the church, not outside.
.
People and clergy of this bent may observe church rules, church protocol, but no life transformation has ever occurred, no death to self. Romans 8:9 “But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
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I did notice in your post you spelled God as lower case “g.” I won’t make a judgment on that but only hope it was a typo.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 11:44 AM (EDT):

@Bill Foley: Since no man is “just,” it is only those *justified* by the blood of Christ who shall be saved. Peter is echoing Paul’s letter outlined in Romans. The gospel is clear, however, that His blood is not cavalierly applied. Christ’s offer is universal, but is not universally accepted. That’s where grace enters assuming you accept the offer. Someone with an attitude of not needing any grace, no confession and repentance over sin, well, you’re on your own. It’s not like He failed to warn people. “He who has an ear, let Him hear.”

Posted by nAoMi on Friday, Jun 28, 2013 10:26 AM (EDT):

Terah James:

When there is no fear of hell, there is no contemplation about the consequences our actions when we take advantage of others. That’s why “Catholics” shift their values according to the situation: Catholics use contraception, get abortions, divorce and marry again, commit murder, adultery, child abuse, blasphemy,and worse. They judge others while believing in a god that will forgive them anything. Religion doesn’t make anybody a good person, but it changes many a good person into a bad person.

Posted by Bill Foley on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 7:26 PM (EDT):

There is another New Testament statement that certainly has a bearing on one’s salvation and that really makes one sit up and take notice. It is chapter 4, verse 18, in the First Epistle of Saint Peter: “And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 5:12 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Jesus was NOT God and that quote from John is fiction. Only God is God. Jesus was not God. I (and no Jew) will ever buy into the idolatry of christianity.

Posted by chris awo on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 5:07 PM (EDT):

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jan’s comment to me may have been well expressed, but they are erroroneous in their content.

God is ruler of the Universe. God’s creation—all of it, is the ongoing miracle. So no, my vision of God is not small. It just does not depend on Moses parting a body of water.

Moses did NOT write the Torah. In Dt, the scripture refers to the death of Moses. so no, Moses did not write that. Secondly, no reputable Biblical scholar, Jewish or Christian, holds Moses to be the author of the Torah. Not even YOUR RCC holds that Moses was the author of the Torah. It is sad that you are ignorant of what your RCC teaches about scripture, it is sad that you are ignorant of scripture and that you apparently do no reading about the Bible.

Posted by Terah James on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 4:56 PM (EDT):

@ Jan’s last three comments to Lisa Kaiser - well expressed, thank you!

@ Naomi - we live life “in the Spirit” to love, please and serve God. We don’t live lives of the fear of going to Hell.

We see our Father, and Jesus -our Brother and our High Priest & Advocate when we pray, having compassion on us sinners- as worthy of our very best, because they are good; they loved us while we were dead in sin. There is FREEDOM in that, but it is not LICENSE to sin.

We understand that we are forgiven. Then we live out of love for God and our actions prove our love for each other, that pleases Him. The Body of Christ is a familial relationship, just as is the Trinity.

@ Lisa Kaiser- after reading all your posts, I’m reminded of these verses said by Jesus and documented in John Chapter 5:45-47, “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

Lisa, you wrote that you didn’t believe that God parted the Red (or Reed) Sea, and perhaps you also doubt His other miracles, indicating how you view God is very small, and you doubt Moses too, the author of your own Scriptures. That’s sad.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 3:15 PM (EDT):

Jan,

Your ideas about Jews are off-base. God’s covenant with the Jews is ongoing and has been ongoing for 4,500 yrs. Note that there are still Jews in the world. Its weird that you think that God does not honor God’s promises to Jews. God’s covenant with the Jews is NOT broken. God’s covenant with the Jews is ongoing, unbroken, valid and eternal. Sorry iof you do not like that fact, but it IS a fact.

And you are WRONG about Abraham. Abraham was the first Jew. And EVERY Jew in the world knows that and understand that. And intelligent Christians acknowledge Abraham as the first Jew. Judaism honors Abraham as and considers Abrahm to be the first Jew. The patriarchs and matriarchs of Judaism ARE: Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, jacob, Leah and Rachel. I tell you what: go ahead and wallow in your error. We Jews will continue to do what we have done for millenia: know, understand, honor, and acknowledge Abraham as the first Jew (because he entered into the Covenant with Adonai, El Shaddai, Hashem, Ruler of the Universe, the Eternal ONE).

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 3:04 PM (EDT):

Jan, You are of course free to reply or not reply to anyhting on any comment thread.

There will be no time of the “anti-Christ”, becasue there ahs never been a time of a “christ” in the way christians use that term.

Adn you do understand of course that YOUR RCC does NOT read the Book of Revelation literally? Its a metaphor. And in her book about the Book of Revelation Elaine Pagels’ theory is that the writer “John” is railing against Pual’s outreach to Gentiles.

The idea of Enoch and Elijah “witnessing” to Jews is just a “christian” way of saying, lets get rid of the Jews, lets impose our religion on the Jews. its arrogant and wrong and anti-Semitic. And of coure the Book of Revelation ahs nothing to do with Enoch or Elijah. So yes your ideas about Elijah and Enoch are just weird, whacky and bizarre.

Posted by Jan on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 12:13 PM (EDT):

It is my understanding that members of the southern kingdom, which was comprised of two tribes (Judah and Benjamin), were known as “Jews” by the time of Jesus’ incarnation on earth. The apostle Paul (Saul) is a Pharisaic Jew and hails from the tribe of Benjamin.

“Philippians 3:3-6
If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.”

Posted by Naomi on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 7:38 AM (EDT):

Annie—you’re missing my point. I’m not saying that people plan to sin thinking they will be forgiven. I’m saying that there is no real fear of going to hell and they are more open to making bad choices. The example of St. Thomas More Hospital defending itself by declaring that a fetus is not a person should not have been an option. Maybe fear of loosing the suit caused them to make that decision, but there was no sense of doing any great wrong.
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Posted by Jan on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 3:37 AM (EDT):

Terah James:
Regarding: we will *never* be pure enough on our own, because Scripture indicates that even our best works are like “dirty rags” to a holy God. Jesus was the only perfect Person, and we are made clean, by His Blood.”

I agree that we can do nothing good or pure enough on our own to merit heaven. And, I believe that it is God’s grace alone which saves us. However, when I was washed by the water of baptism, I was made holy/sanctified by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within my soul as a result of this “washing of water by the Word” and thereby I was made righteous/justified.

“1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

And, I believe that I must still be sanctified/righteous (in the state of grace by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in my soul) at the time of my death in order to be worthy to enter into heaven.

“Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. BE FAITHFUL UNTIL DEATH, and I will give you the crown of life.”

If, after Baptism, I remain faithful to God in obedience to His commandments until I die, or if I sin but repent and then remain faithful until I die, I will then inherit the crown of eternal life after the judgment.

I do not believe that my best works which I do in the state of God’s grace “are like dirty rags to a holy God.” Instead, I believe that my good works are pleasing to God and will therefore merit a reward from Him.

Regarding “dirty rags”:
“Isaiah 64:5-7(NKJV)

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like FILTHY RAGS;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
7 And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities.”

Please note that God actually meets with righteous persons who rejoice and do righteousness. Righteous persons’ righteous works are pleasing to God. Unrepentant sinners’ righteousnesses do not really exist. This is an oxymoron. Instead, their unrighteous works/iniquities are equated to filthy rags and God hides His face from these unrepentant sinners instead of going to meet them. Isaiah is stating that the Jewish nation is not righteous. However, Isaiah is righteous and God meets him and speaks through him.

Good works are pleasing to God and are commanded by Him if we desire to inherit eternal life.

“Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

It is the Father’s will/command that we do good works. Only those people who do the Father’s will on earth (obey His commandments and do the good works He prepared for them to do) actually do inherit eternal life after they die.

“Matthew 7:20-23
20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’”

Many people today are self-deceived. They believe they can enter into heaven without being obedient to God’s commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19)

Posted by Jan on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 2:17 AM (EDT):

LISA:

Regarding: Enoch and Elijah. Neither have yet died a physical death. I and many others who study Scripture think it is possible that they will be sent to preach/witness to the Jews during the time of the Antichrist and to be killed by him and then lie in the street for about three days until resurrected by God.

Revelation 11:1-9 NKJV
“The Two Witnesses
11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
The Witnesses Resurrected

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.”

You may laugh hysterically as much as you like. Makes no difference to me what you do. However, I have decided that I will not be replying to any more of your comments due to your rudeness.

Posted by Jan on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 1:51 AM (EDT):

LISA:

Regarding: “Abraham was the first Jew.”

No, he was not. The Jews descended from Judah. Abraham was never under the Old Covenant Law which was given to Moses and the Israelites including the tribe of Judah at Mt. Sinai. You can trace your Jewishness back to Judah. Abraham is the father of many “nations” - all those “peoples” who believe God and obey Him.

“The verses below come from the RCC’s New American Bible.
Abram fell face down and God said to him: For my part, here is my covenant with you: you are to become the father of a multitude of nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham,* for I am making you the father of a multitude of nations.”

Abraham was circumcised (as are all Jews), and indeed Abraham kept his circumcision covenant with God because he obeyed God’s commands; but the Israelites/Jews broke every covenant with God by their sinful disregard of God’s commandments. An “everlasting covenant” lasts until one of the parties covered under the covenant breaks it. When a covenant is broken, it is no longer in force. God the Father, in His mercy, continues to love the Jews, but they continue to reject His Son, their own Messiah.

You are free to keep believing your own opinion and I am free to keep believing my own opinion. :)

Posted by Jan on Thursday, Jun 27, 2013 1:24 AM (EDT):

Casting crowns:

Thank you for your comments. :)

Posted by Bill Foley on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 11:04 PM (EDT):

In Preparation for Death St. Alphonsus has several excellent sections about the sufferings in hell. However, Blessed Columba Marmion has an interesting truth about hell that St. Alphonsus did not develop.

“There is another terrifying aspect of the pains of hell; the lost soul is given over to the power of the demons. The nature of these spirits, which is absolutely simple, has been irrevocably deformed. They are entirely evil; their only occupation is to hate and to injure. Although, here on earth, their power is restricted, Holy Scripture describes them none the less as beings to be feared ‘like lions seeking whom they may devour.’ (I Peter v. 8) But, in hell, where the damned, abandoned by God, are given entirely into their power, into this exterior darkness, the devils have free play. They cast themselves upon their prey to plague them without respite, to inflict upon them indescribable evils.
“Their implacable fury is concentrated especially on the Christian, for in him they see the image of the Man-God. And if the damned soul be that of a priest, its torments will be augmented beyond all description. In the priest, Satan sees one who formerly, in the name of Jesus Christ, had the mission of thwarting his reign among men. Formerly he was obliged to respect him on account of the priestly character imprinted on his soul. Now that the priest is fallen, rejected by God and deprived of all his power, the devil makes him his plaything. The mere thought of being thus abandoned without any protection and for all eternity to the rage of the devil is sufficient to chill us with fear. From the bottom of my heart I appeal to you in the name of Jesus Christ: ‘Watch!’”

St. Alphonsus has given us the way to avoid hell: “He who prays is saved; he who does not pray is lost.” On August 1, 2012, Pope Benedict XVI gave a talk in which he supported the teaching of St. Alphonsus regarding prayer and salvation.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 9:05 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

Those descended from Abraham via his Ishamael do not call themselves Jew because if you read scripture you will see that God promised to create a different nation through the line of Ishamel. As for the Smaritans, yes they are Jews and they call themselves Jews. They are the people of the northern Kingdon, whose captial was the city of Samaria.

Jews are the descendants of Abraham, the first Jew. God enterned into the Covenant with Abraham (see Genesis 17) that is is signified by circumcision, which is Judaism. Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah, Rachel ARE the patriarchs and matriarchs (the founders) of Judaism.
Who do you think Judah is??? He is the grandson of Abraham—the first Jew. So all Jews are descended from Abraham.

Jesus is NOT descended from Judah. Why? Please read your scripture. Joseph is NOT the father of Jesus. And the NT is silent as to the ancestry/tribe of Mary. Who know what her tribe is??

As for Genesis 49, it was NOT talking about Jesus. Again, Christians deliberately misinterpret and distort Hebrew scripture in order to try to prove something false: that Jesus is God. Appropriating Hebrew scripture for the purposes of idolatry is is an offense to God and to Jews. If you think your Jesus was God, stick to the NT.

Posted by E G Lewis on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 7:40 PM (EDT):

Jimmy, you sound like a defense attorney with a guilty client. Yes, your honor, that is my client’s gun and he had powder residue on his hands and he threatened the man several times and he was there when the man was shot, but my client didn’t kill him. A bullet fell out of the sky and did the man in. I may be paraphrasing badly, but Jesus advised St. Faustina to tell people that he comes now offering mercy; after death he will offer judgment. I’ll admit that the priests are doing a terrible job in the pulpit and RCIA and Confirmation preparation is a joke, but I still don’t think you’re going to get your client off. Yesterday’s Mass reading said,”...for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.” Of course, we all know that Jesus was prone to hyperbole and didn’t really mean half of what he said.

Posted by chris awo on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 7:24 PM (EDT):

the Arabs claim descent from Abraham through Ishmael but they dont call themselves Jews. The Samaritans descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob but they don’t call themselves Jews.
The word jew comes originally from the word Judah. Jews are descendants of the Tribe of Judah, the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Levi and as well as relatively few from the other tribes who were not deported into exile with the remaining(lost)tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.
And that is why the Lord Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well of Sychar that salvation comes from the Jews (cf John 4 v 22). In other words that the Messiah comes from the Tribe of Judah. This was prophecied in Genesis 49 by the Patriarch Jacob:
“Judah, your brothers will praise you.
You hold your enemies by the neck.
Your brothers will bow down before you.
Judah is like a lion,
Killing his victim and returning to his den,
Stretching out and lying down.
No one dares disturb him.
Judah will hold the royal scepter,
And his descendants will always rule.
Nations will bring him tribute
And bow in obedience before him.
He ties his young donkey to a grapevine,
To the very best of the vines.
He washes his clothes in blood-red wine.
His eyes are bloodshot from drinking wine,
His teeth white from drinking milk.”
And that is why one of the names of the Lord Jesus is Lion of (the Tribe of)Judah. No created being can challenge him.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:47 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

You are TOTALLY incorrect. Your understanding and belief re this topic is totally wrong. In the interest of ACTUAL scriptural and historical accruacy, the first Jews WERE Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah and Rachel. God made the Covenant that IS Judaism with Abraham. Genesis Chapter 17:10—the Covenant (Judaism) is signified via circumcision—which Abraham performs on himself and then on Ishamel. Jews existed before coming into the land of Canaan. Again, read Genesis chapter 17. Abraham WAS the FIRST Jew, God promised Abraham that Abraham’s descendnats would possess Canaan. the Covenant that God makes with Abraham IS the beginning of Judaism and Abraham IS the first Jew.

Casting Crowns, please read scripture. You seem to be totally ignorant of what it says and you certainly know nothing of Judaism.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:30 PM (EDT):

@Terah James: In the interest of historical and biblical accuracy, the first Jews were the children of Judah—a son of Jacob. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “Shemites” and Hebrews in line of Noe’s son Shem. Eber was the first Hebrew. There were no Jews or Israelites at the time since Israel did not exist.
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No Jews existed before Judah. King David is in the line of Judah as was Jesus, the Christ.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:30 PM (EDT):

Terah James,

yes, Abraham is the first Jew and a patriarch (along with Issac and Jacob of Judaism—of the faith tradition, of the 12 tribes of Israel.

The term Jew came into being around the 8th century BCE—with the divided monarchy after Solomon’s death. However, Jews, as a people, came into being when God formed the Covenant with Abraham (much much earlier than the 8th century BCE).

Posted by Terah James on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:22 PM (EDT):

Lisa - I know Abraham is the Patriarch, and of Israel. Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I just thought the actual term “Jew” was not coined until much later, with Abraham’s descendants. I’m in a hurry and will read the verses you supplied later - thanks for the information.

Posted by Terah James on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:18 PM (EDT):

@ Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:48 PM—To: Terah James:
“Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.”

Jan - we will *never* be pure enough on our own, because Scripture indicates that even our best works are like “dirty rags” to a holy God. Jesus was the only perfect Person, and we are made clean, by His Blood.
We are adopted by the Father, and made ‘heirs’ of the Kingdom of God.

When we are absent from our bodies (dead) we are present with our Lord and Savior, in Heaven. He lives. Because He lives, we will live (again) also, forever & eternally with Him.

Read Paul’s letter to the Romans, for proof of what I share with you. St. Paul was very clear about it. We have that security, when we abide IN Jesus, as a branch, with Him being The Vine. We are given Heaven as a gift, from God’s grace. We cannot get to Heaven by our own achievements or by trying to cling to anyone else’s coat-tails….............

We are born once, physically, and alone. We are born the second time, spiritually, alone. It’s the Holy Spirit that takes us while we are DEAD, and He makes us alive. We are not sick. We are dead. No one seeks after God, of himself/herself.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:13 PM (EDT):

Terah james,

Your “understanding” of Judaism is incorrect. I am a practicing Jew, go to sysnagogue every Saturday. ALL Jews Abraham see as the first Jew.

Here is the section from Genesis that sets out the covenant between God and Abraham and Jews: Genesis Chapter 17: 4-9. Pleae read this carefully. the covenant is betqeen God, Abraham, and Abraham’s descendants (there are 3 parties to the Covenant). The Covenant is NOT just with Abraham. Read on to the following verses—about how the Covenant is to be witnessed—via circumcision. Abraham circumcises himself and Ishmael (yes,Ishmael). Again, please read some scripture—it will answer your questions. The verses below come from the RCC’s New American Bible.

Abram fell face down and God said to him: For my part, here is my covenant with you: you are to become the father of a multitude of nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham,* for I am making you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings will stem from you. I will maintain my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting covenant, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land in which you are now residing as aliens, the whole land of Canaan, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.f 9God said to Abraham: For your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages.

Posted by Terah James on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 5:01 PM (EDT):

My understanding of Judaism indicates that the “Jewish” nation only began *after* Abraham’s descendents were alive, so while God indeed had a covenant with Abraham, it was only meant for him, personally, and not yet for a nation. I maintain there were no “Jews” until AFTER Abraham. Is there anyone, other than Ms. Kaiser, that can weigh in about this?

Posted by Terah James on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 4:56 PM (EDT):

Two more questions, and this time, it’s addressed to anyone:
1) How many people on this blog believe in Santa Claus? If you do, did you *begin* to believe in Santa Claus *as an adult*, due to facts explained to you, and information you accepted as reasonable? Or, do you believe in Santa Claus, just because someone told you as a child that Santa Claus was real?

2) How many people on this blog believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Bible (Christian’s Old Testament), and how many of you *began* to believe in Jesus the Christ, due to facts explained to you *as an adult*, information that you accepted as sound and reasonable?

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 4:55 PM (EDT):

Terah james,

yes, I and ALL of Judaism is absolutely certain that Abraham was the first Jew. As I noted above to Jan, ALL of Judaism consider Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah and Rachel to be the patriarchs and matriarchs of Judaism. Please read Genesis and read about how God formed the covenant with Abraham. Do RCs not read scripture or know what scripture says? So many of you seem to be absolutely ignorant of scripture.

Posted by Terah James on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 4:46 PM (EDT):

Lisa Kaiser wrote to Jan, “Abraham was the first Jew.” Are you sure about that?

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 4:02 PM (EDT):

Casting Crowns,

Again you make silly nonsensical comemnts about me. That is because you know I am right and becasue you do not have the intelligence, education or experience to debate logically with me. In the battle of wits, you come unarmed.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 4:00 PM (EDT):

Jan,

I think it hysteircal that you 1) reject what YOUR bishops publish re scripture, 2, that you think your opinion is as valid as the opinions of the RCC’s Biblical scholars who are Ph.D in history, ancient langueages, theology, etc, 3) that so rejecting what YOUR bishops publish about scripture you still call yourself a faithful RC. you might want to read what YOUR bishops say about who in the RCC has the authority to publish scripture and to publish “authentic” RCC biblical commentary.

If you have issues about what YOUR bishops have to say about scripture, then contact your local bishop. I merely showed you what YOUR bishops and YOUR RCC say about what scripture means. If you want to challenge that (because you are such a noteworthy Biblical scholar—LOL!), then by all means get in touch with the editors of the new American Bible and convince them of your “valid” ideas that they should publish.

And your “theories” about Jews, Enoch and Elijah are just whacky.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 3:53 PM (EDT):

Jan,

Again you show your ignorance. Abraham was the first Jew. God made God’s covenant with Abraham—please read Genesis to find this out. Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, Leah and Rachel are the patriarchs and matriarchs of Judaism. And that why today there ARE 3 Abrahnic traditions—Judaism,Christianity and Islam.

Note: I NEVER said and Judaism does NOT say that Christians are not loved by God. Jews are a chosen people, Christians are a chosen people and Muslims are a chosen people

Yes, jews are not perfect. However, God has never broken God’s promise to us. In their arrogance Christains think that if they falsely state God ahs broken God’s promie to Jew, that the world will beleive that vicious lie. God’s covenant with us is unbroken, ongoing, valid and eternal. And NO, the Temple was NOT destroyed as punishment. The Temple was destroyed in 70CE because Jews rightfully rebelled against the Roam Emoire’s occupation of Israel. Sorry, if you do not like the facts, but your dislike or denial or ignorance of the facts, do not cahnge the facts. you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to spread ignorance.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 3:38 PM (EDT):

@Jan,
.
It’s the Lisa agenda. Next you’re going hear regarding the “oppressive” Roman Catholic Church toward Jews, homosexuals and women. Then the issue of pedohile priests will come up. She doesn’t accept even her own OT prophets and has created her own brand of Judaism. Jews are certainly not monolithic. There are various levels within Judaism. Very likely she resents the sect of Jewish men who study the Torah all day long while their wives are required to do all the work, raise the kids and financially support the family. Many such marriages are still “pre-arranged” by the family with the couple only having met 2 or 3x.
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You can count, though, on her reminding you she’s had 16 years !!! of Catholic education. “Oh My !!!, Toto, we’re not in Kansas anymore.” Big deal. That—and $4.00 will buy her a Mocha Latte. There are a few Catholics who have attended BYU on a football scholarship, but they certainly don’t waste time posting their wares on LDS blogs.
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Do not allow her to hijack the blog topic.

Posted by Jan on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 3:07 PM (EDT):

LISA:
Regarding: “What has been true for 4,500 yrs is that God has had and still ahs an ongoing, unbroken, valid, eternal covenant of love with Jews. We Jews are a chosen people and God ahs made promises to us, loves us and we exist in the world, despite the efforts of the RCC, the Nazis and others to destroy us. We exist because God wants us to exist, because ah an ongoing, unbroken, valid relationships with us.”

The Israelites as a nation have broken every single covenant they made with God. When a covenant is broken, it is no longer valid/in force. When a covenant is broken, curses against the covenant breaker are unleashed.

This is why Jerusalem, its people, and its Temple were destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans. These events were the punishment from God for rejecting their Messiah, Jesus, who was sent to them by God the Father.

Gods still loves the Jewish people and this is because He loves all His creation. But, contrary to Jewish belief, we Christians are also the beloved of God. We Christians are children of Abraham, who was never an Israelite and who was never a Jew.

Posted by Jan on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 2:52 PM (EDT):

LISA:

The comments you quoted to me from the USCC are not RC doctrine. They are some men’s opinions. I am free to give my opinion just as they are free to give theirs. I am not ignorant of this very important fact. I am also not lazy. Please keep your mean-spirited comments to yourself and refrain from sharing them. :(

Heavenly beings other than the three Persons of the Trinity of God cannot create “anything” at all from “nothing.” So, to believe that God the Father was speaking to mere angelic beings seems to me to be short-sighted.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let US MAKE man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Angelic beings have no power to create “anything” from nothing. Only God who is divine can create something from nothing. The power to create something from nothing is an attribute of the Divine only. It is not an attribute of mere created angelic beings. I believe that God the Father was speaking to His Son and to the Holy Spirit. It is my opinion that Moses and the Israelites did not understand this because it was not yet the time that God had foreordained to reveal the Holy Trinity to them.

Jesus, His divine Son, was chosen to reveal Himself and the Holy Spirit and He did. The Jews of His day rejected Him and His teachings. And the practicing Jews this very day still reject Him and His teachings. It is my opinion that God will one day make it known to them all through Enoch’s and Elijah’s personally witnessing to the Jews on earth and those who then believe in Jesus because of their teaching will convert and become Catholic Christians. This all happens shortly before Jesus returns at His Second Coming to judge the living and the dead. :)

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 2:17 PM (EDT):

Mouse,

First of all NO Jew believe Jesus to be God. Not just some Jews. In the 21st century there are NO “Christians Jews” or “Jewish Christians”. That is a fact and reality. If you believe Jesus is God, then you are not a Jew, but a Christian. Secondly, the prophets of Hebrew scripture were NOT talking about Jesus. Christians mistakenly and deliberately distort the meaning of the Hebrew prophets to try to prove what is what is patently false: that Jesus is God.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was God, messiah, savior for this reason: the concept of messiah is a Jewish concept/definition. Jesus does NOT meet the definition. Christians have to say false things about Hebrew scripture in order to twist Jesus into fitting the definition. If and when a messiah comes, no act of faith will be required. If and when the messiah comes, it will be as evident and physical as the sunrise—the whole world will be flooded with the knowledge of messiah. The messiah was not Jesus—a great teacher of Torah but NOT God.

And guess what, Mouse, many Jews do not believe Moses parted the Red Sea (which itself is a mistranslation of scripture—it should be Reed Sea. It does not matter if Moses literally parted any sea—Red or Reed. What has been true for 4,500 yrs is that God has had and still ahs an ongoing, unbroken, valid, eternal covenant of love with Jews. We Jews are a chosen people and God ahs made promises to us, loves us and we exist in the world, despite the efforts of the RCC, the Nazis and others to destroy us. We exist because God wants us to exist, because ah an ongoing, unbroken, valid relationships with us.

Also, please know that I have had 16 yrs of RC education, including a BA in RC theology from an RC college. I know exactly why Christians and RCs believe what they believe.

Posted by Mouse on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 1:25 PM (EDT):

It’s very interesting how much non-Catholics believe they know about Christianity. Sometimes they are mistaken and don’t realize it. And just spouting opinions is not convincing in any way.

Most Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Christians do (including Jewish Christians), and moreover believe that he is both fully God and fully man (just as the Jewish prophets told us, in ways subtle and not so subtle, and as the Apostles came to realize and hence told us).

Those who disagree with Christians on about Jesus being both the predicted Messiah and God incarnate should (A) Actually learn the Christians’ reasons for believing this and then (B)Try if they like to dispute those reasons using rational arguments that have some foundation(for example, in Sacred Scripture). Just stating “It’s not so! It’s not so!” is useless and unimpressive.

It always surprises me how much people who don’t believe in Christ think they know more about what we believe than we do. Yes, there are some ignorant Christians, just as there are some Jews who don’t know their own faith and some Muslims who don’t know their own faith, or mess up parts of it. None of us is perfect. But what you need to do is to discuss and debate with those who do know their faith and see if your arguments actually hold up against theirs. Just spouting denials of their beliefs means nothing. For example, if you tell me that Moses parted the Red Sea, and I just say, “No, he didn’t!” I have not said anything worth responding to at all… (In fact I believe he parted the Red Sea, but you get my point.)

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 1:06 PM (EDT):

Jan,

You quote Genesis 1:26,“Let us make man in our image” and interpret it to mean that God was talking to Jesus. Jan, you are, like many RCs, ignorant of scripture, ignorant of what your RCC teaches about scripture and apparently either too lazy or too ignorant to go online to find out what YOUR RCC teaches about scripture. On the website for the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the RC bishops post all the books of the Bible, per the New American Bible Revised Edition (released March 9, 2011). The New Amercian Bbile is a translation of the Bible approved by the RCC. Here is the RCC’s commentary to Genesis 1:26, “Sometimes in the ancient Near East and in the Bible, God was imagined as presiding over an assembly of heavnly beings who deliberated and decided matters on earth. This scene accounts for the plural form also found in Gn. 11:17.” So, Jan your RCC does NOT teach that God was tlaking to Jesus. You can verify this RC commetary be going to www.usccb.org and clicking on the Bible links posted by th RC bishops of the US. It is so sad that you parade your ignorance of scripture and ignorance of what YOUR RCC teaches about scripture.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 12:51 PM (EDT):

@CSSML-NDSMD: [“Parish Mass only lasts 45 min and has short homilies.”]
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Homiles are to be limited to only 7 or 8 minutes by dictate from Rome. Clearly, the thinking is the less said, the less people in the pew might be offended. Especially when the Collection Offering is next on the docket. And make sure the homily is loaded with standup humor if a 2nd Collection is being taken up.
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.45 minutes? Yes, you need to hurry out to quickly make room in the parking lot for the next wave of people driving in.
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Bear in mind the Mass is no forum for teaching anything. It’s a celebration of the Eucharist. If you’re interested in learning anything you’ll have to find that on your own. What can be taught in 7 or 8 minutes anyway when half pews are filled with people wearing Packers and Bears jerseys?

Posted by Casting Crowns on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 12:38 PM (EDT):

@John D. [“Priests by and large don’t even mention sin!”]
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Thank you. And who is suppose to be minding the store and leading? Puff pieces by AB Lori and guys riding the banquet circuit train like Dolan have been presented to us by Catholic media elites as “high profile” people we need to listen to. Both are indicative of the current crop of weak and liberal USCCB socialists all appointed by JP2.

Posted by chris awo on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 12:31 PM (EDT):

What many of us don’t seem to realise is that the hour of death is the most dangerous period of our lives. That is the time the demonic powers unleash all they have to try and drag souls to hell. That is why we tell to Our Lady to help us now and at the hour of our death. St. Francis of Assisi chose psalm 141 as the last song he sang before dying. What about the majority of us who are no where near his spiritual growth.
“Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord,
keep watch over the door of my lips!
Incline not my heart to any evil,
.....
Keep me from the trap which they have laid for me,
and from the snares of evildoers!”

Posted by CSSML-NDSMD on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 11:18 AM (EDT):

This article gives the same wrong impression of God that the majority of “Catholics” hold today. The very fact that the author gives an excuse for people who sin gravely, but not mortally because the media gives us an anti Catholic message is ridiculous.

The Sacraments, if used properly are more than enough to alert us to any dangers to our soul. If you have a true prayer life which is fostered in the Sacraments and the Mass, you will be able to see that the TV / Media can be and most times is an occasion of sin. NO EXCUSES.
If one lives his life by secular media standards, it would be a miracle if that soul would be saved. To think otherwise is to have fallen for one of the evil one’s oldest tricks in the book.
As for the excuse of poor catechesis, that is hogwash as well. Any priestly shepherd or mother and father who does not live out their vocation and the greatest commandment and put God 1st in their lives will fall into lukewarmedness. We know what will happen to them. They will most certainly be responsible for any souls that are led astray by their negligence. Truly loving God with all heart mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself would not allow this lukewarm and liberal state to happen.
The only place that the American Catholic Church is headed with liberal views such as this article is right into a Schism. In fact, there is already a schism in place, it has not been declared yet. We all know the following exist:
- this Parish over here will not marry you if you are living together but htis one will
- this Parish is too serious (offers Latin Mass, large families attend, communion patens and communion on the tongue, Eucharistic Adoration) These people should lighten up.
- this Parish doesn’t mention contraception, so it must be OK
- this Parish Mass only lasts 45 min and has short homilies, let go there

If your soul meant as much to you as it ought to, you would not tolereate teaching like this. After admonishing with love to those who fall for this false teaching, you would be equally as wise to ditsance yourself from anyone who chooses to ignore you.

Posted by John D on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 11:10 AM (EDT):

I must compliment the comment by “This Article Is A Joke.” Superb and so well said!! I read the “Lady od Good Success” books a few years ago…Right on the money don’t you think!! Also, there is some hope because there are indications that Pope Francis “knows the score” regarding Fatima and the Consecration of Russia. On May 13th his papacy was consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Maryby the Portuguese bishops at Fatima. Then two weeks ago he asked for universal Euacharisitc Adoration at the exact same hour as he did it in Rome. when the real Consecration is done, Sr. Lucy indicated that ALL the world’s bishops must perform the same prayer PUBLICKLY at the same time as the pope…This may be a “warm up” by Francis. So, please, pray a rosary every day for the pope to be given the grace to do this consecration!

Posted by John D on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 10:56 AM (EDT):

Yes, the moral law is written on the heart of man. The problem is that for over forty years now, there has been little catachesis. Priests by and large don’t even mention sin! Everyone goes to Communion but very few go to conffession. We all know this. The late Fr. Malachi Martin used to record lectures on tape that were/are very instructive for the “faithful.” Back in the nineteen-nineties he said that Christ will not accept the excuse,“I didn’t know.etc.” at judgement because the information is out there. If “catholics” today don’t want to bother to learn their Faith through efficacious reading then that’s their fault. Here’s the classic case I have seen at a my parish. A “Eucharistic Minister” has two bumper stickers on her car’s back bumper. One says, “God is Prolife.” On the opposite end it says, :Obama-Biden 2012.” There’s no excuse for this, and those who would save their souls won’t learn how from Jimmy Akin!!! Get the Cathechism of the Council of Trent and wake up!!

I was about to list some bible verses, quotes from saints, doctors of the Church, including quotes taken from approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary but that would be a complete waste of time. If a majority of Americans (catholics in particular) are in complete denial about the fact that the USA is undergoing a complete spiritual, moral, and economic collapse, then authentic teachings from the RC Church won’t make the slightest impression.

Honestly, THIS ARTICLE IS A JOKE! It’s the same kind of fluffy, cotton candy nonsense I’ve been hearing during homilies in daily mass for years. Jimmy Akin and NCR are using the same technique Fr Steven Scheier revealed the he and the vast majority of priests use(d): TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR—-that’s how you keep people in the pews, keep people buying the papers, keep people reading the blogs—more specifically, that’s the way you keep the money rolling in!

If Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, “The time will come when your enemies will ...completely destroy you ...because you did not recognize the time when God came to save you!” and if Jesus said to the Pharisees & Scribes, “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Then what would Jesus say today over America and to Americans (especially Catholics)?!

If Jesus was that severe with the Pharisees, Scribes, and citizens of Jerusalem and they hadn’t fallen near as low as America and its tireless effort to increasingly globalize abortion/euthanasia/depopulation, contraception, cohabitation & fornication, sodomy, lesbianism, drug & alcohol abuse, violence, war, prostitution, pornography, syncretism, materialism, same sex “marriage”, blasphemy as entertainment, sin as a way of life etc. etc. etc., then how severe would Jesus words be to our nation and its citizens???

Jesus told them straight but today we have Jimmy Akin, NCR, and priests & nuns etc. pushing the “optimistic view” that “speaks to modern man.”

2 Tim 4:3 - “For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.”

Approved Marian apparition, Our Lady of Good Success said this about 20th century and after: “Masonry, which will then be in power, will enact iniquitous laws with the objective of doing away with the Sacrament of Marriage (i.e. symbol of Christ’s union with His Church), making it easy for everyone to live in sin. The Christian spirit will rapidly decay, extinguishing the precious light of Faith until it reaches the point that there will be an almost total and general corruption of customs. In these unhappy times, there will be unbridled luxury that would conquer innumerable frivolous souls who will be lost. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, nor modesty in women. In this supreme moment of need of the Church, THOSE WHO SHOULD SPEAK WILL FALL SILENT.”

Posted by John on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 1:11 AM (EDT):

Our Lady of Fatima said souls are falling into hell like snowflakes. To whom more is given more is expected. Catholics are more worthy of devine punishment than anyone because of OUR neglagence of these ESSENTIAL truths. Ignorance to Scripture is ignorance to Christ. What we need is to start holding each other acountable. That is true charity isn’t it?

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:48 PM (EDT):

Terah James:

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Only the pure in heart do see God.

The “person” also goes through a cleansing fire in addition to his works if he/she does not yet have a pure heart when he dies.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NRSVCE)
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

The builder/person is also cleansed by fire. This fire is a “prison” where the builder’s imperfections are purified/purged by fire.

God is a consuming fire:

Hebrews 12:28-29
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us give thanks, by which we offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe; 29 for indeed our God is a consuming fire.

Even every careless word will be judged. Every single thing we sow (do) will reap either a punishment or a reward.

Matthew 12:36
I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter;

Matthew 5:25-27(NKJV)
25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus visited the souls/spirits in prison/purgatory during His three days/nights in the grave. Those people in Noah’s time who repented while drowning were still in this prison/purgatory two thousand years after they died and this is where Jesus visited them.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Jesus also preached to the righteous souls in Abraham’s bosom while He was in the grave, before He escorted them to heaven:

1 Peter 4:6
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
****

1 Peter 4:18
And “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?”

Paul answers this in no uncertain terms:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (New King James Version)
....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Jude 1:20-23
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

It is best to keep working out our salvation with fear and trembling as Paul commands us to do.

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 10:59 PM (EDT):

Edward:

Regarding music:

1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

Music, books, TV, movies, and video games, etc. can also be very bad company and ruin good morals.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow.

Galatians 6:8
If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

The remedy:
Romans 6:16-19
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted, 18 and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification.

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 10:39 PM (EDT):

Lisa:

I believe that “time” for human beings began with the ensoulment of Adam. This is why, for the Jews, it is year 5773. They believe that Adam received his soul from God 5773 years ago. The first six days of creation until the moment of Adam’s ensoulment could have taken billions of years, according to how we count time today on earth. These billions of years are irrelevant. Holy Scripture is specifically about the relationship between God and Adam, and Adam’s descendants.

Who do you think God is speaking to when He states:

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ???

I believe God the Father is speaking to His Son and His Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit binds the Father to His Son in perfect love and perfect unity and is Himself perfect love and perfect unity). One essence - God - these three Persons comprise this one divine God. This is why God the Father said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness… He was not talking to Himself!

Posted by lisakaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:44 PM (EDT):

Edward,

Yes I am free to beleive what I want to believe—because I live in America and because I am a Jew (there is no dogma or doctrine in Judaism). However, I have not misrepresented Christians. If you think I have, please cite a specific example. And yes, God will make the determination no matter what we believe or do not believe. I said that several times in previous posts above. And that goes for the RCC and RCs as well. The RCC can teach whatever it wants about hell, the devil, etc, but the truth rests only with God (certainly not with the RCC).

Posted by Craig Roberts on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:41 PM (EDT):

@Lisa Kaiser
God promised to save you if you keep all the commandments. Rightous Jews have nothing to to fear except the lack of the fear of God. Thank God that He sent his only begotten son to save the rest of us!

Posted by Edward on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:39 PM (EDT):

Apologies to Chris. That should have been directed to Lisa Kaiser.

Posted by Edward on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:37 PM (EDT):

Chris, you’re free to believe what you like and it appears that you are even free to misrepresent Christians.
If this allows you to sleep better at night, enjoy.
What I enjoy about such debates is that in the end, we are all the same. God will make the determinations, no matter what we think. But thanks for the laughs.

Annie, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:33 PM (EDT):

Hi Edward, thanks for popping in. It’s my understanding that we shouldn’t listen or watch things which would be displeasing to God, which means that we all need to live under a rock, LOL. I think as long as it’s not influencing you in a negative way then you should be fine. I know some music is very sexually explicit as well as TV shows. That might be difficult for those who have the tendency to sin sexually.
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Also, I know you probably didn’t have time to read through the other 300-some comments, but YES, there is definitely salvation for people outside the Catholic Church. And yes, we should pray for everyone to come to know Christ through the church He established!

Posted by Michael on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:33 PM (EDT):

Just want the follow-up comments. :)

Posted by lisakaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:30 PM (EDT):

Chris Awo,

What is surprising about and extremely arrogant of Christians is that Christians somehow expect God to break God’s promises to us Jews. Sorry, but God has kept God’s word to Jews. Jews remain a chosen people of God. God’s promises to us and God’s covenant of love with us are unbroken, ongoing, valid,eternal. We Jews have existed in the world for about 4,500 yrs. We have survived all attempts by the RCC and by the Nazis and others to destroy us Why? Because God will its. Because God wants Jews in the world. Because God loves us. Because we are a chosen people of God. Because God has made an unbreakable covenant with us. And it does not matter what Christians think about that or say about that. It has no impact on or relevance to the ongoing, unbroken, valid and eternal reality of God’s relationship with us Jews, to God’s love for us Jews. Its another sign that Jesus was not God, that Jesus performed no miracles. That stuff is pure fiction. We Jews will happily to continue to live in our eternal relationship with the Eternal One, the Ruler of the Universe. We don’t care that Christians don’t like that we do not commit idolatry by believing that Jesus was God.

Posted by Edward on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:29 PM (EDT):

I enjoyed the article but obviously, some questions came to mind that I doubt any mortal can answer.
Like so many, I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. While I don’t look at this as a ‘get into Heaven free’ card, it is a powerful message that describes God’s love for all of us. In line with this of course is the idea of sin and confession and the repeated view that God forgives.
And I believe this. I believe that we are imperfect beings and that God understands and loves us.
I’m struck by other questions that come from this article.
What about the effect of modern music? Ler’s face it, the messages changed in the late 60’s. If I like a song or artist, am I endangering myself? If I know what the message of a song is and still listen to or like it, am I committing a sin?
In another regard, I wonder about those who are born into situations where they never hear the word of God. What of them? What of those who do not know Jesus? Perhaps parenting—or lack thereof—is to blame. Perhaps it is societal. Perhaps it is socioeconomics. But what of these types of people? I have to think they are many.

At the end of the day, it is clear to me that most Catholics know and love Jesus as our Lord and Savior. And I am sure that at this point in time, many of us feel the incredible static coming from the evil one meant to deflect us from that knowledge and love. I have to believe that God knows each of us so well….our very being….our faith, our love, our devotion…and that in the end, the true believer will travel the right path.

Posted by Craig Roberts on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:28 PM (EDT):

congratulations

Posted by lisakaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:19 PM (EDT):

Terah James,

I come to this blog in oorder to understand what exterem right-wing RCS are saying about their faith. Not becasue I am drawn to the RCC. I am a Jew, and am very happy to be a Jew. But the RCC is trying to force its dogmas and doctrines into the laws of the United States through lobbying, through using the sacraments as a weapon against RC officeholders (state and federal). All the bishops are right-wing extremists who are int he pocket of the GOP. So its the business of every American citizen to know what right-wing extremist RCs are saying, advocating and doing

Posted by lisakaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:15 PM (EDT):

Eddie too,

I never said that the Hebrew scripturew were not part of RCsm? Where did you get that idea? Do you have issues with reading comprehension? While Hebrew scripture is part of Christianity,it is clear that Christainity ahs distorted and misinterpreted Hebrew scripture in order to try to prove what is clearly false: that Jesus was God. Jesus was a human being, who died and who stayed dead. And becasue Jesus was a Jew, it si clear that he would have never said that he was God—that would have been idiolatry and as an observant Jew Jesus would not have engaged in idolatry or tried to have lured others into idolatry. All the parts of the NT that try to make it seem that Jesus was God are fiction.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:12 PM (EDT):

Sorry, meant to add the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You have to actually feel like you need forgiveness, and feel worthy of that forgiveness (i.e. not despair) in order to receive it.

Posted by lisakaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:10 PM (EDT):

Annie,

The Hebrew scripturews were written about 3,500 yrs ago. Judaims is about 4,500 yrs old. Scripture looks to grapple with the big questions: Who is God, what is God’s relationship with people, why are we here, what is life about, why is there suffering and death, why do we die, what happens after we die, why do evil people seem to prosper when good people do not, why do bad things happen to good people? It is natural to think, perhaps hope that evil people will be punsihed (if not in life, then after death). It is natural to want to deflect responsiblity for our bad behavior and to beleive that suffering and bad things (often beyond our control) are caused by evil beings—whom we cannot control.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:10 PM (EDT):

Naomi, I think you’re missing the point. Jesus guarantees forgiveness if one is truly sorry and seeks absolution through the sacrament of confession. In no way does Jesus say, “yeah go ahead and offend me, that’s cool, we can talk about it later.” The sinner must be sorry for offending Him. No, I don’t think it’s a license to sin. Anyone who feels like they have a license to sin and presumes to be forgiven has a grossly malformed conscience. And in my experience, a lot of our protestant brothers and sisters feel like Catholics are that way, meaning that we can just sin however we want and then all is forgiven in the confessional box. Again, NO NO NO. Jesus is all about forgiveness, but He is also no one’s door mat. He is merciful but just.

Posted by lisakaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:05 PM (EDT):

Annie,

Casting Crowns is aliar. He deliberately spreads lies and falsehoods about what I have posted. I do NOT believe that as Casting Crowns falsely says that the NT is” fiction by Jesus people”. I beleive that Jesus was a real person and a compelling teacher of Torah. What IS fiction in the NT is anything that points to Jesus as God. None of the writers of the gospels knew, heard or saw Jesus. They were writing to convince people of a clearly false message. Jesus was NOT God.

I think its interesting that Casting Crowns feels it necessary to lie about me and to try to tell people that they shoudl not communicate with. What he means is that he is deeply ignorant of RCism and Judaism and resents that I accurately point out his ignorance. So he lies about me. Sad

Posted by Naomi on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 8:58 PM (EDT):

@Bishop Where?
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http://www.catholicfamilycatalog.com/healing-after-an-abortion.htm
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Some of the advice this blog suggests for women who have had an abortion:
. Forgive yourself. God does not want you to live a lifetime in mourning. Your sin has been forgiven. You have been made new in Christ. Rejoice in the knowledge that one day you will be with your child in the arms of the Lord.
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The site practically guarantees that women will be forgiven if they choose to abort. Where’s the fear of hell as punishment for killing your child when there are sites like the above that promise salvation in spite of the crime?

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A quote from the above article:...Despite the deterrent effects of religion that have been highlighted in prior research, our results indicate that religion may have a counterintuitive criminogenic effect in certain contexts. Through purposeful distortion or genuine ignorance, the hardcore offenders we interviewed are able to exploit the absolvitory tenets of religious doctrine, neutralizing their fear of death to not only allow but encourage offending. This suggests a number of intriguing consequences for deterrence theory and policy.
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So, you see, Anne, the doctrine that god will forgive everybody allows criminals to believe god will give them a “get out of hell free” card.
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You also might want to Google the story about St. Thomas More Hospital. The defendants—representatives of Catholic medical ethics—had no worries about the consequences of betraying Church doctrine and the reputation of the Catholic Church.
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It’s about time Catholics stood up for their rights and enforce the fear of hell instead of the “promise” of forgiveness. Otherwise, the Church and religion will have no credibility for moral teaching.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 8:29 PM (EDT):

Ok, why test the works? What difference does it make? What happens if some of your works suck? Or if you haven’t done enough? Do you just get to slide through to heaven? Hardly.
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Maccabees is part of the canon of scripture which was removed during the reformation. FYI, the Jews and Eastern Orthodox pray for the dead too. These were Jews who were praying for a dead soldier on the battlefield. Praying for the dead is a common Jewish practice, one practice which Catholics maintain today. Revelation also tells us that nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of heaven. How about liberation after expiation? You know, that whole paying the last penny thing? There is more in scripture than “one teensy verse” to support the existence of a STATE of purgatory. There is a big misunderstanding because it is improperly referred to as a place, when it is a state of purification. Please let me know if there is any confusion about this dogma and I will be happy to point you to a comprehensive list of resources.
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Think the first Christians didn’t pray for the dead? They did. On early Christian tombs which were unearthed, friends and relatives were asking the deceased to pray for the ones who went before.

Posted by Craig Roberts on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 8:28 PM (EDT):

Man, just think how many souls would be saved if we all spent as much time praying as we do arguing. Lord have mercy.

Posted by Terah James on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 7:58 PM (EDT):

Found it. It’s Isaiah 53. An internet search produced a description of Isaiah 49-53 in outline form that I found helpful. Here’s the link:
http://executableoutlines.com/isa/isa_10.htm

Posted by Terah James on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 7:49 PM (EDT):

1- The reference in 1 Corinthians that some people use to describe the existence of Purgatory, specifically says it is our *works* that will be tested as though through fire. It does not say *people* will go through fire. Big difference between a person’s work, and a person him/herself!

2- Maccabees is a historical Old Testament book. It’s not reasonable to take one verse out of context, using one teensy verse to create a whole New Testament doctrine around it.

To most Jews, Orthodox and otherwise, worshipping anyone other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (who revealed Himself as “Father”, and who came in the Flesh through the Person of Jesus, and remains with us, in the Holy Spirit) is seen by them as idol worship. It’s a no-no.

I don’t understand why any Jewish person would be so drawn to a Catholic blog, unless, of course, the Holy Spirit is drawing that person to learn more about the Person and work of Jesus, where there that person will find forgiveness leading to salvation and eternal life with Him forever, beginning now. All Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Which chapter in Isaiah speaks to Jesus’ work at Calvary? I love Isaiah!

Posted by eddie too on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 6:02 PM (EDT):

all of the old testament is part of the RCC faith. someone like ms. kaiser writing that it is not part of the RCC faith is someone simply ignoring the fact that Jesus was raised in the jewish religion and all of the first RCC members were jewish. in addition, Jesus said that He came not to abolish the law (He was speaking about the law of moses) but to fulfill it. so it is writing ignorantly to write that the old testament is unrelated to the RCC. only those who deny life after death can reasonably argue that hell does not exist.

Posted by Mouse on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:54 PM (EDT):

PS, Jesus is indeed God…that is no idolatry. I’m not sure what your religion may be, but the entirety of the New Testament is full of clear references to His divinity. If you are a member of a group that does follow the New Testament in some way, or even if you are simply interested, you could also explore works that show where these references are, and refutes those who claim otherwise. Of course, if you don’t yet trust the Sacred Scriptures, there are also good books out there to show you why the Scriptures are worth trusting. There is so much good info out there…and Mr Akin would be a good reference for some of them if you don’t know where to start.

Posted by Mouse on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:50 PM (EDT):

@ lisa kaiser - With all due respect, Jesus taught that there is a hell as well as a heaven, and thus the apostles taught the same and thus Christians believe even now. Every well-informed Christian knows that it is superior to do the right thing out of love for God, rather than fear of hell, but that does not mean that there is no hell, nor that there is no utility in remembering that there is a hell.

Perhaps you have thought about it a great deal, but I find that most people who reject the idea of hell have not studied or thought about it in great depth, but simply prefer it not to be true, or have rejected it because they can’t understand how a loving God can also be just and allow us to condemn ourselve by the ultimate unrepentant abuse of our free will (which is what can cast one into hell). That is a natural question to have.

Well, guess what? For over 2000 years the Church Fathers and myriad saints and theologians and philosphers have discussed and even wrestled with this issue, without making the mistake of abandoning the truth of the Faith. There isn’t room here to go into all those arguments, but if you haven’t, you might explore some of their writings, maybe especially those of some of our believing contemporary Catholic theologians and philosophers. There is much more depth there than you probably imagine.

In contrast, forgive me for pointing out that there is no depth in arguments that say “Those who believe in hell are juvenile and supersititious and this is just an idea that people use to try to control people.” It’s not an argument, it’s just a statement of irritation with an idea or people we don’t like. Gently may I point out that we can be more loving by discussing ideas without insulting people.

In any case, for believing Christians, Jesus’ word is enough to settle the matter (and there is plenty of evidence that He really did teach that, and no evidence to the contrary). There are plenty of thoughtful works discussing the matter further for curious minds who want to enter more deeply into the question…

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:45 PM (EDT):

Thanks Crowns. I will not feed the troll any longer.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:43 PM (EDT):

Annie and Mark Shea: Save yourself. Best if you not enagage Ms. Kaiser. All she will do is take the conversation off track. THAT is her mission,—to disrupt you. You will not find any common ground in the OT and certainly not in the NT which she totally denies as being “all made up” fiction by Jesus people.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:21 PM (EDT):

No Chris not off hand. There are some in Maccabees, 1st Corinthians and Revelation, off the top of my head.

Posted by chris awo on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:17 PM (EDT):

Well if with all the miracles of the Lord Jesus many still did not believe him, it is not surprising that a sizeable number of 21st century Jews still don’t believe in him. As the Lord Jesus himself said,
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” (cf Luke 13)

P.S. Does anybody have quotations from the Church Fathers about Purgatory?

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:11 PM (EDT):

Lisa, you couldn’t be more off the mark. I am in no way a fundamentalist, denying the existence of dinosaurs, etc. The Bible is one of the most complicated pieces of literature in existence. Yes there are many ways to read scripture. That’s why Benedictine monks can take ONE passage and meditate on it for YEARS.
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So the way it sounds to me, is that Judaism depends on the Jew. You can essentially believe whatever you want about anything. Perhaps this is why many Jews I personally have talked to seem to be lacking a moral compass, advocating and even promoting gay marriage and abortion (both of which are aberrations in the entire canon of scripture). Who said anything about dodging responsibility? You’re addressing CATHOLICS here. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. My fault, my fault, my most grievous fault. Not once have I ever heard a fellow Catholic say “the devil made me do it!” That IS laughable and it shows that you have about as much understanding of Catholicism as I do Judaism. We sin because we choose to but fortunately we have the sacrament of confession when we seek forgiveness.
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So let me ask you, how do YOU interpret the OT passages listed above which reference evil spirits, hell, and so forth? I am curious…

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:05 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

the idea that Jesus was God is a fiction,, is idolatry. The RCC is a human instituion, run by mortal, fallible, sinsul people (like all humans). The RCC know nothing of “fallen angels” or of “eternal life”. Again, it does not matter what we beleive or do not beleive about life after death. God will do what God will do, no matter what any human being says, believes or does. Our job is in the here and now—to love God, to love each other, to make our world a better place. We are responsible for our own choices, behavior, sins and good deeds.

Posted by Mark Shea on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:52 PM (EDT):

Lisa:

One need not be a fundamentalist to believe in the reality of hell or the devil. One need merely believe that Jesus is the Son of God since he warned of both and the Church following him still does. It has nothing to do with being a fundamentalist. The Church is not fundamentalist and does not insist on six day creationism or talking mules, but it does warn about fallen angels and the possibility of the loss of eternal life.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:47 PM (EDT):

Annie,

What I am saying is that people who believe in hell, the devil, evil spirits are people who lack faith in God, the Ruler of the Universe, the Eternal One. And who are weak-minded and gullible. Who look to dodge responsiblity for their own sins, bad behavior. What IS laughable is that you seem to read the Bible literally,as a fundamentalist. That you do not know that there are many layers of meaning to scripture. Not even your RCC advocates that RCs read the Bible literally. Do you take everything in the Bible literally? The flood, creation in 6 days, the sun stopping in the sky for Joshua, talking mules??? If so, that IS laughable.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:31 PM (EDT):

It seems in reading comments on this thread, soem people are really really obssessed with hell and who may or may not be going there. Why this obsession? No human being—not even any pope or priest or minister or rabbi, imam, knows what happens to us after we die. Seconly, or belief on this subject does not matter. God will do what God will do—no matter what we believe or do not believe. It seems the important thing is that we look to be good people, to do good in the world, to look out for each other, to make our world a better place. In other words, it seems the most important thing is to love God and to love each other in the here and now. What God has planned for human beings after we die is known truly only by God. Why live in fear??? Why go around uselessly speculating about thing we cannot now know with any certainity? Why go around trying to judge you will or will not be going to some mythical place of punishment? Live in love and the rest will take of itself.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:27 PM (EDT):

Obviously you don’t know what idolatry is because you are essentially calling anyone who believes in the existence of the devil a devil worshiper. Are you really blowing off all the OT references to evil and evil spirits? That is laughable.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:22 PM (EDT):

Jan,

I understand what idolatry is. Seconldy, the belief in hell, the belief in the devil or evil spirits is just rank superstition. Quoting scripture on this topic is not definitive of anything. So you read the entire Bbile literally—God created the earth in 6 days, God flooded the entire earth, God had a mule speak to Balaam? The sun stopped in the sky for Joshua? The Bible looks to grapple with the big questions, but even as your RCC teaches, it is not a book of history or of science.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:15 PM (EDT):

Annie,

Pleae know that there are many ways to be Jewish. Orthodox Jews are NOT the only Jews in the world, and what the Orthodox think about any topic is NOT representative of Judaism in general. Other large movements within Judaism leave open the idea of life after death, hell, etc. So quoting waht the Orthodox think aon any topic is not aaying anything definitieve about Judaism. Please note, that in Judaism,there is no hierarchy, no dogma and no doctrine. There is “tradition”, and every Jew has the right to read, study, evaluate and accept or reject “tradition”. Or is Jews say, “tradition ahs a vote, but not a veto”.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:13 PM (EDT):

@John: Your position is thus to claim immunity and ignore the unpleasantries of those things Jesus said that you personally don’t like. That’s OK. Plenty of people think as you do. The gospel is not legalism but an invitation to walking with Him—moment by moment, not just on Sunday. Discipleship is to “follow” Him out love and gratitude, not out of fear.
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[“You want to be told that most people are going to hell.”]
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What I “want” to be told doesn’t matter. But if someone needs to scare you into Heaven, if that was the only way to do it —then isn’t that the better alternative. You’ve already made clear what you want, though.
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Your avoidance of the “few” and the “many” aspect weakens your position and indicates your preferences. Jesus really didn’t mean this. Jesus said He is the “truth” but John calls Jesus a liar by denying what Jesus said.
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[“I’ll take my chances.”]
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You are free to do so. No one is stopping you.
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[“But I cannot see myself adopting a vision of God as being so wrathful, so vindictive, so quick to condemn, that nearly all His children go to hell.”]
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Neither did Ananias and Sapphira.
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[“I have to say this is not the type of theology which attracts many converts.”]
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I know. You only prefer “feel good” theology which leaves out the bad stuff. That’s apostate belief.
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[“I have said my last on this subject.”]
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I certainly hope so.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 4:10 PM (EDT):

Eddie,

You said, ” she [Annie] used the decalogue to support the Church’s rule that the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday binds under pain of sin. saturday is not the sabbath for RCs.” Using the Decolgue to support any rule of the RCC or of Christianity is a total misuse and misinterpretation of Hebrew wcripture. The Decolgue ahs nothing to with Christianity, with the RCC, or with Sunday as a Christian sabbath. Yes, I understand that Friday/Saturday is not the Christian Sabbath. That is why using the Decalogue to support mandatory Sunday attendance at a Christian service or a Catholci Mass is is incorrect use of Hebrew scripture.

Posted by John on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 2:37 PM (EDT):

Well Casting, perhaps you should hunt around for a diocese where they talk about hell more. Or perhaps you should join some Protestant denomination which accepts only a literal interpretation of scripture as ultimate authority. You probably would not like the church I attend, but I do. I go there because I want to, and because it provides a spiritual foundation for my life, not because I am afraid of going to hell if I don’t.I have experienced much spiritual growth there and met many holy people. But perhaps they are not holy enough and most of them are going to hell.

I will go back once again to the point I have made before. We really do not know how many or what percentage of people are going to hell, and the church teaches as much. The author quoted Pope Benedict in his article saying pretty much exactly that. But you seem unsatisfied by that answer. You want to be told that most people are going to hell. Someone else here even offered his view on the percentages. How ridiculous!

Someone else mentioned stories of saints suggesting that only a few of thousands will avoid hell. If that is the case, then I may as well play golf on Sundays, because the odds are that I am damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I have to say this is not the type of theology which attracts many converts.

Again, the problem here is not with the columnist’s answer. It is with the original question. Why is anyone trying to decide who gets to heaven and who does not? Go out and follow the gospel. Go build the Kingdom of God. I know, you think I only get the happy parts and you want me to go back and read the fire-and-brimstone parts. Let us just conclude by saying that I read them. I just find a different meaning in them than you do. I find such a legalistic reading of the gospels depressing, and frankly rather childish. That is the best biblical teaching and theological analysis you can come up with? Seriously, that is about a grade-school level of depth. Neither life nor faith are that simplistic.

I have said my last on this subject, so spare me the raft of scripture quotes and dire warnings of damnation. I’ll take my chances. But I cannot see myself adopting a vision of God as being so wrathful, so vindictive, so quick to condemn, that nearly all His children go to hell. And I look askance at one whose faith consists primarily in looking at the failings of others and condemning them to hell.

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 1:37 PM (EDT):

Lisa Kaiser regarding “There is no hell, no devil, no evil spirits, ‘etc’...”

Knowledgeable Catholic Christians do not believe that the devil is equal to God. Created beings are never greater than their creator. God created angelic beings to know, love, and serve Him. Those angelic beings who rebelled against God are known as fallen angels, devils, demons, or evil spirits.

2 Chronicles 11:15
And he made to himself priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.

Judges 9:23
And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

Psalm 95:5
For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens.

Isaiah 34:14
And demons and monsters shall meet, and the hairy ones shall cry out one to another, there hath the lamia lain down, and found rest for herself.

English translations of your Testament mention hell, devils, demons, and evil spirits. I don’t believe that we are to treat them all as merely Jewish myths.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 1:13 PM (EDT):

Lisa, please get out your dictionary and learn the correct definition of idolatry. By the way, Jews do believe in hell as a place of punishment and purification before entering heaven when their messiah comes. I was doing some reading on some orthodox Jewish sites. Some orthodox Jews say that if the person was REALLY bad, then they never leave hell, or their soul goes “poof” and ceases to exist. Just relating what I have read.

@John: You seem to enjoy and embrace the “comfortable” and more palatable gospel passages but dislike the warnings. My local diocese has been cranking these guys out from the seminary for a long time. You do realize Jesus spoke far more about Hell than He ever did about Heaven. This current generation of clergy avoids talking about sin, wickedness, evil and Hell because they, too, are off track. When they avoid the totality of the gospel, they are preaching a false gospel. Perhaps many here are tired of only hearing a Gerber’s Pablum gospel for infants. Why else do you think Catholics would vote overwhelmingly for abortion rights and pro gay marriage candidates?
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You are correct that we are not to sit in judgment of someone’s salvation, yet we can KNOW what the gospel says. We do not need a church doctor to interpret what is clearly stated by Jesus. “Ye shall know them by their fruit” means we can identify sin without passing personal judgment on someone. We can pray for such a person and even our nation to turn from it but we are not be neutral for fear of offending someone. If you think we should all just listen to Aquinas, Benedict and the Magisterium, then everyone should just close our Bibles and put them away. The idea the Holy Spirit only speaks to a select few men in Rome is without any foundation.
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As for the rich, wealth in and of itself is not sinful. Abraham had vast material wealth as did Job—but the key is that they both walked with God. If God is calling you to give everything away, then please do it. But don’t expect poverty to end because Jesus said the poor will always be there. God accomplishes some great things through the affluent and often the godly affluent do it quietly not seeking any notoriety.
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You further chastised Annie’s remark about skipping Mass for a Hockey game with [“But if someone decides to skip church to go to their kid’s hockey game, that is none of your business, and God does not need your advice on whether or not it is a mortal sin.”]
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Yes, John, it is your business, but the church needn’t enable such a decision. Why would a parish or diocese be scheduling youth league or CYO Soccer games on Sunday mornings as they have in my area? This speaks to the priorities of local clergy. Please don’t think all ordained who wear a collar are truly walking with Christ. Paul says if “Christ is your life” it because He has transformed you to walk in His Spirit and not in the flesh.
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It comes down to this. We all choose what (or whom) is the priority of your life. If Christ is not the priority, then you are. A lot of people believe in God. The problem is they don’t really trust Him.

Posted by eddie too on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:38 PM (EDT):

many jews believed in Jesus and became His disciples and followers. even in this day and age, there are jewish converts to catholicism. praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ!!! of course there are Jews who do not believe in life after death. just as there are jews who do believe in life after death. i do not know how people who believe there is no life after death reconcile that idea with the idea of ultimate justice.

Posted by eddie too on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:12 PM (EDT):

annie did not use the decalogue to as a way to justify sunday as the sabbath. in fact, i see no way to interpret her post in that manner. she used the decalogue to support the Church’s rule that the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday binds under pain of sin. saturday is not the sabbath for RCs.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:09 PM (EDT):

Larry,

If you want to go on a Jewsih comment thread and talk about Jesus, you are free to do so. But please note, that is such “christian” thing—to to try to impose Jesus as God upon Jews, to try to insist upon conversion. Also, please note, I am NOT trying to convert anyone to Judaism (Judaism does NOT seek converts—if one is meant to be a Jew, then God makes sure that happens). I am merely expressing an opinion about hell and the devil. There is no hell, no devil, no evil spirits (as Annie above talks about). We are responsible for our good action and our own sins. We cannot pawn off our sins to some non-existent being that some christians seem to believe is equal to God. That is idolatry. God gave us free will and intelligence. It is up to us to use these gifts to the glory of God. Not to try to blame some other non-existent being for our sins.

Posted by Alex on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:05 PM (EDT):

@Mark Taylor

Mark,

I took a look at your comments on the youtube site.

It’s admirable what you’re trying to do, but you have to realize that most of these people live in incredibly selfish worlds: it’s all about their wants and desires, nothing else; it’s all about how they feel and how your making them feel, and nothing else.

It’s gotten to the point where they actually believe a man can be a woman in gender, because its what he feels and what he wants. The level of blindness and narcissism is diabolical.

I don’t think a head-on rhetorical encounter will do much good, because these people have already laughed off their conscience a God who is to be feared, respected, and loved appropriately (once fear and respect take their proper place).

They cannot see order and purpose behind their very biological make-up; many of them are gun-ho for the environment and nature, but their the first ones to pervert nature from its natural course. The level of confusion, misdirected hatred, and sadness is astounding. They need our prayers, for they are locked into their sin and they can’t.

They are those whom are spoken of in Romans 1:22-27

22 they, who claimed to be so wise, turned fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the imperishable God for representations of perishable man, of bird and beast and reptile. 24 That is why God abandoned their lustful hearts to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies among themselves. 25 They had exchanged God’s truth for a lie, reverencing and worshipping the creature in preference to the Creator (blessed is he for ever, Amen); 26 and, in return, God abandoned them to passions which brought dishonour to themselves. Their women exchanged natural for unnatural intercourse; 27 and the men, on their side, giving up natural intercourse with women, were burnt up with desire for each other; men practising vileness with their fellow men. Thus they have received a fitting retribution for their false belief.

If Catholics become public witnesses to God’s law, they will have much to suffer: this gay agenda has taken a deep hold on society (and the world—-just look at France), and it can’t stand the prick Catholics present to its conscience, for it “feels” deep down, that it itself is wrong.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:55 AM (EDT):

Annie,

I think its hysterical that you cite the Decalogue as a way to justify Sunday as the Sabbath!!!! If you are going to use the Decalogue to talk about the Sabbath, then please interpret the Decalogue correctly. The Sabbath of the Decalogue is the Sabbath of Judaism—Friday evening to Saturday evening. Anyone who attends a christian service on Sunday is NOT keeping the Sabbath! Christainity has set its holy day as Sunday, but Sunday is NOT the Sabbath of the Decalogue

Posted by chris awo on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:54 AM (EDT):

Addendum - the people who go where no catholic should go are those who fill Catholic or Christian in their forms but who don’t know who the Lord Jesus is and don’t care to know. And even worse join with the father of lies and out rightly hate the Lord Jesus

Posted by Jan on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:47 AM (EDT):

“....The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer will show you what you may think about it. He relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, “Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.”

“Our chronicles relate an even more dreadful happening. One of our brothers, well-known for his doctrine and holiness, was preaching in Germany. He represented the ugliness of the sin of impurity so forceful that a woman fell dead of sorrow in front of everyone. Then, coming back to life, she said, “When I was presented before the Tribunal of God, sixty thousand people arrived at the same time from all parts of the world; out of that number, three were saved by going to Purgatory, and all the rest were damned.”

“O abyss of the judgments of God! Out of thirty thousand, only five were saved! And out of sixty thousand, only three went to heaven! You sinners who are listening to me, in what category will you be numbered?... What do you say?... What do you think?...”

I “know” that I will continue to say the following prayer every night before I sleep as part of my daily “working out my salvation with fear and trembling”:

Prayer for Daily Neglects:

Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Sacred Heart of Jesus, with all its love, all its sufferings and all its merits.

First—- To expiate all the sins I have committed this day and during all my life. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Second—- To purify the good I have done poorly this day and during all my life. Glory Be, etc.

Third—- To supply for the good I ought to have done, and that I have neglected this day and all my life. Glory Be, etc.

Posted by eddie too on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:45 AM (EDT):

i wonder if, to Jesus, even one human soul going to hell is too “many”.

Posted by chris awo on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:38 AM (EDT):

Now to answer the question. In my estimate, if everybody in America was to die today (God forbid such sudden death!) about 10% of all Catholics in America will go straight to heaven to the Lord Jesus. These are people that have united themselves to the Cross of Christ and were seeking perfection. Then between 23% to 66% of Catholics in American will be headed for Purgatory. These are people not seeking perfection in their life time on earth but who when the push comes to the shove will always choose the Lord Jesus everytime. Then the remaining people (do the math) will be heading for where no Catholic should be. Now if that is the stastictics for Catholics your guess is as good as mine with regards to that for non-Christian Pagans.

P.S. Purgatory is a place of anguish and torment. That is why it is better to do the penance here on earth rather than in Purgatory. Nobody leaves there until they pay the last penny.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:35 AM (EDT):

Also John, I’d like to know where you’ve read that Pope Emeritus Benedict said that no one goes to hell.

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:30 AM (EDT):

LOL that you think God needs advice about what is a mortal sin when HE is the one who has given us that information. No one needs to advise Him what is a mortal sin. He made it explicitly clear in His commandment to keep the Sabbath holy. Sorry you don’t like to see that. The bottom line is not to do any unnecessary work on Sunday, unless you absolutely have to. That is also taught in RCIA class. I have also been a Catholic my whole life, and this is not new information. So no, going to a hockey game is not an acceptable excuse when there are other masses to attend. I would never walk up to someone and tell them that, but if they asked me I would tell them that intentionally missing mass is a mortal sin. Not my teaching, the Church’s teaching. Ultimately what someone else does is between that person and God. I have enough to worry about with my own life and do not judge others for what they are doing. But I will defend the faith and clarify any confusion when asked or confronted about it. Also, God is not waiting with vengeance to condemn people. It’s been stated here a number of times that God doesn’t send people to hell. People send themselves to hell by intentionally sinning and not seeking forgiveness or doing penance. I personally don’t want anyone to go to hell.

Posted by Ed on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:21 AM (EDT):

Be very careful to commit most American Catholics to hell.
“Judgement is mine saith the Lord”.

Posted by chris awo on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 11:15 AM (EDT):

Dear Lisa Kaiser, am glad to know you are Jewish. My favorite persons also happen to be Jewish e.g. Jesus of Nazareth and his mother Mary, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul, Mary Magdalene, etc. God keep you well.
Please note the devil exists; it is his best trick to make people believe he doesn’t. He was seen by Jesus after his 40 days fast and attempted to tempt him as he tempts us. The devil also tormented St Anthony and St JeanMary Vianney. They saw him; that is their witness and the witness of many saints. The devil is no fiction. Thanks to the Lord Jesus (who came to us through the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) we can overcome the devil

Posted by Gabriel on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 10:46 AM (EDT):

How can those who use artificial contraception, have abortions, bless homosexual marriages/adoptions possibly be in the state of sanctifying grace? Did Jesus Himself not say that we shall know them by their fruits. Those who support abortion and go against the teachings of the Church on other matters are simply confirming people in their sins instead of admonishing them to get off the road which leads to hell, which Jesus so often warned about. Some of the worst sins are sins of omission..

Posted by Gabriel on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 10:40 AM (EDT):

WE ARE AT WAR against the forces of hell, who seek to ruin souls. The Church has been around for two thousand years, but the age we live in today is a Satanic age of lies and misinformation.

As for artificial contraception, most Catholics I know who practice it know exactly what Church teaching is and are not shy about saying they blatantly reject Church teaching on this matter. As for abortion, statistics show that the majority of women who have one (in the United States) identify themselves as Catholic or Protestant; I can’t imagine that most people having an abortion are in the state of grace.

Jesus was quite stern about watching and praying lest we be deceived and die unprepared to meet our Judge. What’s more, to those to whom much was given, much more will be required; and all Catholics are wealthy in sanctifying grace through the Seven Sacraments of the Church, fountains of grace available in overflowing measures. Yet most Catholics do not go to Church. To assume that most Catholics are in the state of Sanctifying Grace is a stretch of the imagination, since most Catholics are not practicing Catholics; We do know that being in the state of grace is the bare minimum for being saved. We also know that being ignorant is not an excuse when it is our responsibility to know our faith.

Most Catholics who identify as Catholics and do not know their faith are not invincibly ignorant; their ignorance is not invincible, as most hear the word and have access to the sacraments yet choose to be part of the world, contracepting an aborting and supporting such perversions as homosexual marriage and homosexual adoptions. Again; Jesus was clear when He said that the road to hell is very wide and easy, while the road to heaven is narrow and arduous. No one is getting a crown of glory for following the ways of the world.

As for people going to hell, the greatest Biblical source of warnings about Hell come from Jesus Christ Himself. And if the message of Fatima is worth listening to, people are falling into hell “like snowflakes falling from the sky”. So much as the horror of the vision that the three children who witnessed the vision of hell began sacrificing and practicing acts of mortification for poor sinners who are falling into the firery pit which Jesus so often warned about..

Don’t be fooled; the Church is at war against an army of evil spirits who deceive, mislead and lie about how to get to heaven. Their greatest deception is to say that God is too good to send anyone to hell. In reality, Hell is a built-in consequence, much like blindness is the consequence of plucking one’s own eyes out. Christ warns us, the Church reminds us, but it is ultimately ourselves who are responsible for for our own sanctification or our own damnation.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”—-Jesus Christ (Matt. 7.21)

Posted by Patt on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 10:17 AM (EDT):

God is the epitome on MERCY. Sister Josefa Menedez wrote “The Way of Divine Love” and Sster Faustina wrote “Divine Mercy in My Soul”—but people must seek that loving mercy of God.

Posted by Mark30339 on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 10:06 AM (EDT):

I want to reconsider my comments. Jimmy’s post starts with the stark question of whether we are in, or we are expelled from, God’s heavenly grace. The question honors a fear-based supposition that God’s creation comprises strict, rigid and terrifying rules of inclusion and exclusion. One envisions God’s judgment being similar to images at Nazi camps where Jewish children are separated from their parents, some live, most die. Jimmy, to his credit (and contrary to the many commenters highly invested in exalting the just while culling out the sinful), really tries to break away from that dark dualism and fortify notions of inclusion and of multiple paths to God’s grace. I would go farther, but I want to commend Jimmy’s tendency toward mercy.

Posted by Patt on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:43 AM (EDT):

Our posts are not the final word here—scripture is—and it says over and over—Few enter Heaven. THe saints even stated that they were working out their salvation in fear and trembling—which means we should all work hard and pray constantly. God is merciful—but many continue to do things in thier own way and not His.

Posted by John on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 9:37 AM (EDT):

How do I interpret the passage of scripture where Jesus refers to the narrow gate? Mostly, I don’t, at least not in terms of what proportion of humanity is going to heaven. I also recall the passage in which Jesus notes that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than a camel to go through the eye of a needle. All his disciples reply, “Then who can be saved?” because they consider themselves among the rich, and Jesus replies that all is possible with God. That’s kind of interesting. If most Americans are going to hell, maybe it is because we have so much wealth, but are willing to let many people in the rest of the world suffer in poverty. Very few of us intend to sell all we have and give it to the poor, so that we can have treasure in heaven.

He also had that parable about the workers hired at different times of the day who all receive the same pay. It seems that God has his own standards for who is rewarded in what fashion. But as Jesus noted in that parable, not all of us are in agreement with God’s judgment.

The fact is, being good is hard. Being contrite is hard. Doing any of this without the grace of God is impossible. I do not know who is going to heaven and who is not. I have to figure that a loving God does not create his creation in order to cruelly destroy it. And I have to agree with those, like Pope Benedict, who believe that a loving God works out the details.

What I see here is not encouraging. A columnist publishes his answer to a question one of his readers asked. Personally, I think it is a dumb question anyway, but he found it worth answering. But many people here seem near outraged that he is not condemning more people to hell! But of course most Americans are going to hell! The gate is narrow! Look at people leaving Mass early! Fortunately, none of you are on the admittance committee, which is a good thing, since I am pretty sure it dramatically improves my chances of making the cut.

Some of the arguments here have really been bizarre. Annie honey, examination of conscience is a great thing. If it helps you grow spiritually, more power to you. But what you quoted here is not definitive, and honestly, I found it a little weird. I mean, I have been a Catholic all my life, and for most of it, a pretty observant one. But in all that time, and after lots of years of Catholic education, nobody has ever suggested to me that I should refrain from unnecessary spending on the Sabbath. Wait a minute, people are going to hell for grocery shopping on Sunday? What are they going to bust us for next, double parking?Seriously, if we as a church adopted an Orthodox Jewish understanding and observance of the Sabbath, you might have a point. But we have not done so in my lifetime. If some of us feel that this is a path to greater holiness, than go for it. But if someone decides to skip church to go to their kid’s hockey game, that is none of your business, and God does not need your advice on whether or not it is a mortal sin.

Why oh why are so many of you determined to see others in hell - to the extent that you are willing to take issue with the comments of the former pope on the subject? Really, people here are literally declaring themselves more Catholic than the pope! I have raised this point several times and no one has responded to it. Debating the numbers who are going to heaven or hell is not a particularly Christian thing to be doing. Jesus specifically condemned those who take pleasure in feeling themselves more righteous than their neighbors, and yes, that is exactly what people here are doing. I am sorry, but I do not buy the explanation that you are merely quoting scripture. Too many are taking too much satisfaction in making sure the guest list is short, (and presumably finding their own names on the list.) Again, I can understand why the columnist took up the question in the first place, but it is a dumb question. The point is, we should not even be speculating about who makes it and who doesn’t. That is not our job. And that, brothers and sisters, has been church teaching for a very long time, which is why folks like Benedict and Aquinas felt that way.

I do not see the fruits of the Spirit in these comments. I do not see any love or compassion toward others. I do not see peace or discernment or wisdom. All I see is judgment and self-righteousness. At the risk of sounding that way myself, I will suggest that commentators quit worrying about whether others are making it to heaven or not and instead trying to do what Jesus commanded we do to others: clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those imprisoned, comfort the afflicted. Love one another! And leave the judgment to the ultimate Judge. It’s His job.

Posted by ScriptureSaysFew on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 7:48 AM (EDT):

Jesus said, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to” (Luke 13:24).

Matthew 22:14 ...‘For many are called, but few are chosen.’

Matthew 7:13-14 ...‘Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.’

Matthew 7:21-23 ...‘Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.’

Posted by Annie on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 6:35 AM (EDT):

Hi John, I’m sorry if you perceived my recommendation of reading encyclicals as saying you were going to hell. I never said that, nor did I ever judge anyone. I do know for a fact that some people (in my own family included) do not put God first in their lives. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people say they can’t come to mass because their kid has a hockey game, etc, when there are SIX masses at our parish from which to choose. Keep holy the sabbath day. Black and white.

What I cited from the website was also NOT a definitive guide about whether or not you are going to hell. You are inferring these things when I haven’t said them. It’s part of a standard examination of conscience that one reviews before going to the sacrament of confession. It’s very useful to see where you have fallen short, sorry, where I have fallen short. I don’t want you to think I’m pointing the finger at anyone. And yes, examinations of conscience are generally based on the commandments, not encyclicals or the catechism. I hope I’ve clarified any confusion.

Posted by one annoymous on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 6:07 AM (EDT):

Today’s Gospel - Who will listen?:

Gospel Mt 7:6, 12-14
Jesus said to his disciples:
“Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.

“Do to others whatever you would have them do to you.
This is the Law and the Prophets.

“Enter through the narrow gate;
for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction,
and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life.
And those who find it are few.”

Posted by ch accountant on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 5:36 AM (EDT):

I know many people whose actions would qualify them, by the standards of this article, to an entrance into hell. I will be in good company.

Posted by Mark Taylor on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 3:09 AM (EDT):

Hmmm, interesting how someone (there are so many posts that I don’t have the inclination to check out who it was) quoted the opening verses of Genesis 6. It certainly seems that we are going back to the days of Noah, as Jesus warned would happen in Matthew 24; indeed a friend of mine, who believes in the pre-trib rapture, believes the end is coming soon.
Certainly, we are getting to the point where people (including professing Christians) want gay marriage legalized. And Heaven help anyone who speaks out against it. Trust me, I speak from experience. Right now I am getting flamed because I went on Youtube and posted a remark against same sex marriage on a rather strange short film called “Love Is All You Need?” where a straight girl is bullied because everyone else is gay. You can check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ROXTFfkcfo&lc=yLe2OxD8t515C8j0Q6ebdOrBJ9KooRDmDl6bdjxWmbk
Maybe if any of you have Youtube accounts, you could sign in and back me up.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:21 AM (EDT):

@John: The gospel is about forgiveness, restoration and redemption. I believe that. Warnings, though, are important —Amen? On the flip side, the gospel is not all Kumbaya and “God loves everyone” regardless.
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I’ll not trade passages with you, however, I would be interested in your understanding of the narrow gate and the broad road Jesus speaks of. All lot of people appear to be highly irritated by this.

Posted by John on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:18 AM (EDT):

Edit: Yes, I did bring up Billy Joel. Sorry. But I still do not consider him a theologian. Just a good songwriter. And it seems, a Jew. God bless him.

Posted by John on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:08 AM (EDT):

But I didn’t bring up Billy Joel’s religion. I didn’t even bring up Billy Joel. I just borrowed a line from him. I’d hardly consider Joel to be a theologian, but he is a pretty good songwriter. So yes, I have to wonder why you that it necessary to bring up his religious background.

Benedict’s comments about hell are quoted in the original article, and I will let you look up Aquinas yourself. Sorry if they conflict with your understanding of the gospel, but I am going to take their opinion over yours. One is considered one of the greatest minds in Catholic history. Another may well be in the future. In any case, he is a renowned professor of Catholic theology. You are a guy who posts on message boards. Now maybe you are right and the former pope and a man long considered a saint for whom countless seminaries have been named were teaching the message of Satan. But I doubt it.

(Oh yes, my local bishop is indeed a cardinal. He is also my bishop. Nice man, too. I like him.)

Again, I do not see any love or compassion in your arguments, merely judgment and self-congratulation. I see no joy in the gospel you proclaim, only the warning of damnation. I see you quoting the scripture passages you like and ignoring the ones you do not. And I wonder why someone is so determined to win an argument that only a select few are making it to heaven. That does not seem to be something Jesus did, or encouraged others to do. Instead, he instructed his disciples not to judge others, to examine their own behavior first before that of their neighbor, to seek God with humility, rather than to thank Him for their own righteousness. I’d be a lot more convinced of your argument if you were talking about what YOU needed to do and how YOUR behavior needed to change, rather than directing it at all those other sinners out there. Remove the log from your own eye. Leave it properly to God to determine whether there is a speck in your neighbors’.

Posted by objective1 on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 12:03 AM (EDT):

Most Catholics are going to hell because they choose to follow the path which is most pleasing to their wishful thinking. They think that all the rules of behavior established by God the Father and the Son apply to everyone else and that they can abide with only those that are most appealing to their psyches.
No matter how we conduct ourselves before others or run up the scorecard on sin or graces, no on, no one with a grain of cruelty in their hearts will pass through the gates.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 11:41 PM (EDT):

@John: That many sinners will be in Heaven before the self righteous is a true gospel statement except you left out “repentant” sinners. That includes myself—I am a sinner. The unrepentant have no need of Christ. Nowhere does Jesus imply the unrepentant will attain Heaven.
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It is anti-semitic to point out Billy Joel is Jewish? How? He is not a religious Jew. By his own admittance, Joel is a cultural Jew and has no faith. It was you who brought his name up in a failed attempt at humor. To your point, Jews do not believe that Jesus is the “Christ” so they also do not belief the gospel. It is bogus to play the race card simply to deflect the irrelevancy of your remarks.
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True, I cannot know what you can (or cannot) discern spiritually. **But I can read things you have written. ** Here’s what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” It is only then can the statement be true the gospel is “consistent” with human reason—because your understanding is that of the Spirit and not of the flesh. John, you need to lay a more solid foundation if you expect people to understand your comments and the meaning behind them.
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I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to cite the source where both Aquinas and Pope Benedict have suggested that “no one actually goes to Hell.” On balance, what the gospel says carries more weight than either of these men. And the fact your local Bishop (I assume you mean Cardinal) voted for Benedict and Francis is immaterial. The opinions of men are one thing. The gospel of Jesus Christ is something else. When the opinions or teachings of men run contrary to what Jesus said, then you will know you hearing falsely. One of Satan’s greatest deceptions is for you to think there are no false teachers in church. It would reasonable that you would not be on guard against such people or specific teachings. Yet, Jesus warned this would happen. That’s why He place the Holy Spirit in you.

Posted by Mark30339 on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 11:11 PM (EDT):

The law given to us in scripture and tradition, to the extent we can make a coherence of it, certainly lays out what we deserve. It’s remarkable how deep, nuanced, and “legal” Jimmy is in handling the question of deserving Hell. In his quite gifted but dualistic mind, I sense he is laying out a plan for a confident earning of heavenly grace on the law’s own terms. I suspect the smug, self-assured rule minders will be more surprised than my clan of unwashed and unworthy when we meet our maker.

Posted by Manny on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:28 PM (EDT):

@Tera James, Monday, Jun 24, 2013 5:12 PM (EDT)
Don’t reduce Christ to instructions. That is Pharisaic. There is law, there is spirit of the law, and there is Christ who transcends all of it. Of course there are the insturctions, but don’t be so quick to think that is all there is. Obviously Pope Benedict doesn’t think so.

Posted by Patt on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:14 PM (EDT):

A saint remarked that many who deny Hell are quite surprised to end up there. It still exists even though they deny it. Yes one Mortal sin—done deliberately and not repented nor forgiven is all it takes to separate one from God—for all eternity. It does not matter if you believe it or not…

Posted by John on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:59 PM (EDT):

Sorry Annie. I’m not buying it. I’ve read a few encyclicals in my time. They are invariably at least graduate-level stuff. I found them tough to get through, and I have a doctorate. I cannot imagine my teen-age niece trying to plug through one. She is a really sweet girl, kind and generous, but a poor student. Academic stuff was never what she was good at. I am not too concerned she is going to hell as a result. Hey, if being stupid is all it takes to go to hell, you folks are probably right after all. Most Americans probably are going there.

But it’s not. And most people are not called to the esoteric academic study of encyclicals. Better they should spend their time doing the things that build the Kingdom of God - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and yes, raising their children. For most of us, the detailed study of encyclicals would profit us little.

The same goes for the Catechism. Yes, I have a copy. Two, actually. But I recall when it was first published. Our parish priest actually advised against just picking it up, reading a passage or two, and taking it out of context. It is a little more complicated than that. Life is a little more complicated than that.

Nor do I find your citation to the missal definitive. A good guide to conduct? Sure. Useful? Yes. A definitive description of who is going to heaven or hell? No. Glad it works for you, but it is not up to you to make that call for anyone else. Ditto the guy who suggested my conscience was bothering me and suggesting I go to confession. Hey, confession is great. But remember that quote about removing the log from your own eye, rather than the speck from your neighbor’s? That’s in the Bible too. Jesus said it. With that in mind, I appreciate your concern, but I am reasonably confident that if I wind up in hell, it will not because I zoned out in Mass.

Again, I will ask, why are you folks so worried about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell? Why do you embrace a view of faith with so much rigor and so little joy? Why would any rational person choose to follow such a path? None of us can say definitively what lies on the other side of the grave, but a religious belief that sets one on edge in fear and assumes most people are bound for eternal torment has little or nothing to recommend it on this side. If that is the type of religion you espouse, and if you are correct that only observant Catholics are going to make the cut, then it seems to me that you are encouraging many to seek damnation, because the alternative in this world is so unpleasant.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:27 PM (EDT):

Excerpt of an examination of conscience regarding the third commandment. Yes people, INTENTIONALLY missing mass on a Sunday is a mortal sin. It goes directly against this commandment!

Third Commandment: Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Have I missed Mass on Sundays or Holy Days of obligation?
Have I been late for Mass on Sundays or Holy Days of obligation or left early through my own fault?
Have I made others miss Mass on Sundays or Holy Days of obligation, leave early or be late for Mass?
Have I been willfully distracted during Mass?
Have I done or commanded unnecessary servile work on Sunday or Holy Days of Obligation?
Have I bought or sold things not of necessity on Sunday and Holy Days of obligation?

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:24 PM (EDT):

“Even those of us who could figure them out do not do so, and probably shouldn’t, as we have lives to lead, jobs to do, and children to raise, among other things.”

John, this is scary, and unfortunately very indicative of the type of Catholic today. Faith is always on the back burner for some. No one said reading the encyclicals was a requirement, but it can lead you to a deeper understanding of the faith. They are writings from which all of us could benefit. A two thousand year old church and people still expect to be “told” everything. It’s impossible. That’s why this stuff is made available to the masses for free on the Vatican’s website. And yes, look at any examination of conscience in a missal. There are things listed which you may not have thought were sins but really are. Zoning out in mass is one of them, although I’m sure it wasn’t quite put that way.

Posted by Laurie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:18 PM (EDT):

woe John…look who is talking about mean-spirited! Thou dost protest too much against people who simply quote the truth of Christ’s words. Conscience perhaps? If so, one always has recourse to confession.

Posted by John on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:58 PM (EDT):

[“Apparently, few people are going to make it to heaven”] —-Apparently, you think Jesus was lying when He said “few there are who find” and enter the narrow gate.

Apparently, you skipped the part of the gospels where Jesus warned against self-righteousness. He pointed out that many sinners would be admitted to the Kingdom of Heaven before those who consider themselves righteous.

[“I’m with Billy Joel on this one. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”] —-Such a line makes for catchy Rock & Roll prose, like his “Catholic girls start much too late” but then Joel is Jewish so he also doesn’t believe in Jesus.

I do not know what Billy Joel’s religious beliefs are, or, if he is Jewish, he considers himself a religious or merely a cultural Jew. But I am not sure what the point is of pointing out his Jewishness. I cannot help but notice the inherent antisemitism of such a remark and observe that antisemitism has been condemned as a grave wrong by several popes.

[“This is a version of the gospel that I simply cannot accept. It flies in the face of logic and reason.”] —-You don’t set the terms, Jesus does. The gospel is not based upon human reason but on truth which is Spiritually discerned. No wonder you are unable to accept it.

Actually, the church has taught from its very beginning that the gospel was consistent with human reason, and must be. This is the whole reason for discussion of natural law. But again, I cannot help but notice the pomposity of you concluding what I can or cannot discern spiritually. For all you know, the Blessed Virgin Mary made a personal appearance in my living room.

[“a God who creates a universe, creates people to live in it, claims to love them, and then apparently takes pleasure in condemning them to eternal torment.”] —-Please cite the passage in which God takes “pleasure” in this? You send yourself there by rejecting Him

The church has specifically rejected the sola scriptura theory of revelation. But consider, if God creates humanity, supposedly loves His children, but creates them in such a way that the bulk of them are condemned to eternal torment, then God is responsible for one Hell of a design flaw.

[“Pope Benedict was not the first to suggest that perhaps no one actually goes to hell. Actually, Thomas Aquinas reached the same conclusion many years ago.”] —-Assuming your statement is true, then both Benedict and Aquinas should be considered false teachers because they (like yourself) also deny the gospel.

Yes, the statement is true. Now, let’s see. We have probably the most important theologian in Catholic history, someone whose work was considered so authoritative during his own lifetime that it was placed on the altar next to the Bible during councils of bishops, and the recent pope. Many have taken Benedict to task for his relative lack of people skills. He unfortunately suffers in comparison to his predecessor. However, he is also widely regarded as a brilliant theologian whose encyclicals will be studied for generations to come, at least according to my local bishop who helped elect both him and his successor. But according to you, they are false teachers. But you have it all figured out. Does your conceit know no bounds?

Look, encyclicals and the like are great. But few people actually read them. There is good reason for that. They are written by people who have doctoral-level degrees in theology. That excludes almost all of us. Most people would have no idea of how to even begin to read them. Even those of us who could figure them out do not do so, and probably shouldn’t, as we have lives to lead, jobs to do, and children to raise, among other things. The visions and writings of saints are great, but they are rarely considered Catholic doctrine. When they are, the church makes those individuals Doctors of the Church. There are not a lot of them. So if Saint Someone shed tears about people headed for hell, she probably had reason to. People do lots of crazy things to bring misery to their lives and the lives of others. But this is not definitive as to the eternal fate of anyone. Even the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary are things the church teaches Catholics may believe in, not that they are obligated to believe in. If the children of Fatima saw souls descending like snow flakes into hell, I do not take this as a prediction of the relative populations of heaven and hell. Perhaps she was referring to the oncoming slaughter of World War I.

I do note what Jesus said repeatedly about the self-righteous. Many tax collectors and sinners will be saved before those who consider themselves to be. I look here and see a version of faith which strikes me as mean, legalistic, joyless - in short, the type of faith Jesus specifically rejected. Apparently according to many here, yourself included, the path to salvation requires reading the right documents, drawing the right conclusions from them, and never letting your mind wander during Mass. What I do not see is any evidence of joy, or more importantly love. I cannot imagine a god who would make salvation contingent on being born in the right place, listening to the right interpretation of scripture, drawing the right intellectual conclusions about it, and passionlessly following a laundry list of rules.

Or as Paul put it,

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angles but have not love, I am a noisy gong or clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all that I have and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.”

Funny, he doesn’t say anything about drifting off during Mass or being able to quote the Catholic Catechism. But then again, maybe Paul was just another of those false teachers.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:57 PM (EDT):

Naomi, that is what I said in a previous post RE: examination of conscience and an HONEST effort not to sin again. I am sorry if you perceived it any other way.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:55 PM (EDT):

Naomi, wow, no, that is not what I meant at all. That is one of the stereotypes that people have about Catholics. I have heard, oh, you Catholics just use confession as an excuse to sin. NO NO NO. Unfortunately I don’t know much about the case you posted, but it in no way relates to what I was trying to say. Murder is a horrible sin, and I would venture to say that most, if not all who commit murder know it’s a sin. Are you implying that if a murderer has perfect contrition and seeks out the sacrament of confession, that he or she will not be forgiven? There’s a difference between asking for forgiveness and having perfect contrition, that is, being sorry for offending God, not just sorry because you’re scared of what might happen to you.

Posted by Naomi on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:52 PM (EDT):

The real questions are: Why should I be sorry? To whom do I owe an apology?

Posted by Naomi on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:43 PM (EDT):

Posted by Annie on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 1:07 PM (EDT):
Naomi, not sure what you meant by your comment. Catholics, and anyone else who seeks forgiveness, are called to be truly sorry for forgiveness. Not sure what you mean by asking permission.
==============
Annie—don’t you see that that is a license to do evil? It’s like a “get out of jail free” card. For example: Lawyers for the St. Thomas More Hospital in Colorado argued “that it [the hospital] is not liable for the deaths of two 7-month-old fetuses because those fetuses are not people.”
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Bishops later declared that it was “immoral,” but there is nothing about compensating the father in the wrongful death suit regarding his twin children that could have survived.
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My point is that the gravity of declaring 7-month-old fetuses as “not people” to avoid liability in a wrongful death might have been the best defense, but it was “safer” to betray the Church’s pro-life doctrine and repent, rather than stand by Catholic tradition and face the financial and social consequences of their neglect to save the viable fetuses.
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It’s easy to “sin” in panic and “regret at leisure.” If there were certainty of punishment for renouncing the Church, it might have had weight in the decision of whether to take advantage of Colorado’s law that disallows personhood of unborn fetuses.
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So the lawyers/hospital used the “fetus is not a person” defense, and maybe they repented after the case was dismissed, but what difference does it make?

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:03 PM (EDT):

Hi John,

Please don’t look at some of the commentary here as a true reflection of the Catholic faith. The church teaches there is salvation outside of the Catholic faith, no doubt. There is a difference between saying you reject the church and saying that you’re uncomfortable about some things. None of us can say for sure who is in hell and for what reasons. There have been visions given to saints about this, and there is no doubt hell exists. I’m not sure where you got the bit about Pope Benedict suggesting there is no hell. He has never said that or eluded to that to my knowledge. What we do know is that if we willingly sin against God and choose not to repent, those actions do not have good consequences.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:54 PM (EDT):

@John: All interesting comments.
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[“Apparently, few people are going to make it to heaven”] —-Apparently, you think Jesus was lying when He said “few there are who find” and enter the narrow gate.
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[“I’m with Billy Joel on this one. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”] —-Such a line makes for catchy Rock & Roll prose, like his “Catholic girls start much too late” but then Joel is Jewish so he also doesn’t believe in Jesus.
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[“This is a version of the gospel that I simply cannot accept. It flies in the face of logic and reason.”] —-You don’t set the terms, Jesus does. The gospel is not based upon human reason but on truth which is Spiritually discerned. No wonder you are unable to accept it.
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[“a God who creates a universe, creates people to live in it, claims to love them, and then apparently takes pleasure in condemning them to eternal torment.”] —-Please cite the passage in which God takes “pleasure” in this? You send yourself there by rejecting Him.
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[“Pope Benedict was not the first to suggest that perhaps no one actually goes to hell. Actually, Thomas Aquinas reached the same conclusion many years ago.”] —-Assuming your statement is true, then both Benedict and Aquinas should be considered false teachers because they (like yourself) also deny the gospel.
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[“As for the rest of you, if your vision of heaven is correct, enjoy it. I think I’d prefer hell to sharing it with you.”] —-As you wish.

Posted by Larry on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:53 PM (EDT):

To Lisa: I suppose you wouldn’t mind if I or someone else here were to come onto a Jewish website and urge the readers to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah?

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:29 PM (EDT):

As per ususal, Casting Crowns lies about who I am and amkes falw accusations about what I beleive.

I do NOT believe that ‘everything written about Jesus is fiction”. jesus wasa real person, a compeliing teacher of Torah. But he was NOT God, messiah or savior.

As for the prophets, they were talking about the spiritual, political, military and geopgraphic realities of their times. They were NOT talking about Jesus. The mission of the prophets were to call Israel and Judah back to obedience to God. They wer NOT seers, predictors of the future. Christians have distorted the menaing of the prophets in order to justify the obvious fictional belief in Jesus as God.

I am proud to be a jew. If Cating Crowns, in his ignorance of all thing Biblical or religious, thinks that is “militant”, then his opinion is him arrogantly parading his ignorance.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:23 PM (EDT):

@Mouse: [“if you can read, and have been Catholic all your life, and have never bothered to find out what the Church teaches on the most pressing matters of human life and salvation, you are quite likely culpable for your ignorance.”]
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Agreed. It also means you had no interest in the gospel or eternity.

Posted by John on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:16 PM (EDT):

God, you people are a meanspirited bunch! It seems the vision of heaven and hell that most of you adhere to is a pretty grim one. Apparently, few people are going to make it to heaven, and those who do are going to get there because they read the right documents, came to the proper conclusions, and never missed Mass on Sunday. Heaven is apparently some sort of celestial country club, where the few who can get in look down upon those who could not make the cut. I’m with Billy Joel on this one. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.

Sorry, I am not for a minute buying the smug argument of some here that although they would hope most people will get to heaven, they are sure most go to hell. I’m sorry, but it seems way too clear that you are taking pleasure in your own supposed sanctity while feeling morally superior to others. This has been a tendency among Christians and those who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus from the beginning. We can see it today in the teachings of Westboro Baptist Church, where they seem to believe that just about everyone is going to hell.

The comments here have consigned to hell not only sinners of various descriptions, but those who do not go to church on Sunday, those who have been exposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church and found them unconvincing, and even religious educators who do not make their teaching scary enough.

This is a version of the gospel that I simply cannot accept. It flies in the face of logic and reason. It posits a God who creates a universe, creates people to live in it, claims to love them, and then apparently takes pleasure in condemning them to eternal torment. I’m sorry, but such a god is unworthy of worship. It also seems to contradict the teachings, and more importantly the actions of Jesus, who seemed to enjoy hanging around with sinners, who rarely told them they were going to hell, who instead spoke often about the endless depth of God’s love. If anything, Jesus was much harder on those who believed they were righteous because they believed the right doctrines or did the right actions. So no, I don’t believe you are going to hell because you joined the wrong church, made the wrong call, or committed (fill in the blank) sin.

I will leave that to God to determine, but the God I worship is both just and loving. Pope Benedict was not the first to suggest that perhaps no one actually goes to hell. Actually, Thomas Aquinas reached the same conclusion many years ago. I can certainly conceive of someone who, fully informed and entirely rational, chooses to reject salvation. But I am unconvinced that anyone has. I hold out hope for the most wretched of sinners.

As for the rest of you, if your vision of heaven is correct, enjoy it. I think I’d prefer hell to sharing it with you.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:15 PM (EDT):

@Annie (and everyone else): Best to avoid Lisa Kaiser. She enjoys baiting people and taking them off topic intentionally. She will thus “own” the blog going forward if you give her the opportunity.
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Ms. Kaiser is militantly Jewish, rejects Jesus as the Messiah, believes the Jewish prophets were never referring to a “man” as Messiah (much less Jesus) and that everything written about Jesus is pure fiction.
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No follower of Christ will find any common ground with Ms. Kaiser. If you attempt to engage her your time will be wholly unproductive and (as I mentioned) she will have succeeded in her agenda to take the blog off the topic. This is her specialty. Just ignore her posts.

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:05 PM (EDT):

Annie,

God is God, there is only God. One doe not have to believe in the ‘devil” to believe in God. God is the author of creation, the Ruler of the Universe. God is the ONE who speaks and the world comes into being.

The ‘devil’ is just man’s superstitious idea. God certainly can and does exist without the ‘devil”. There is no such being as the ‘devil”. you seem to want to equate the two as being equal but opposite and that is idolatry.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:48 PM (EDT):

How do you rationalize the existence of one but not the other? This is a new one for me…

Posted by Lisa Kaiser on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:43 PM (EDT):

Annie,

There is only God, there is no deveil. We are responsible for our sins, for the evil we create in the world. We cannot pawn it off in the non-existent “devil”. Belief in hell and the devil is rank superstition, no matter the faith tradition. Belief in hell and the devil is for the gullibel and weak-minded.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:35 PM (EDT):

Crowns, what’s not to like? : D

Hit me up sometime if you’re in VA.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:33 PM (EDT):

Lisa you couldn’t be more wrong. If you believe in God then surely you must believe in the devil. Christians are not the only ones who believe in hell, FYI.

Posted by lisa kaiser on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:14 PM (EDT):

Belief in hell is rank superstition. Its something that theRCC & “christianity” pushes in order to control the gullible and the weak-minded. No pope or priest or minister or any other human person knows what happens after we die. Hell should not be a conceern. We should love God & live as good people because God commands it & because it is the right thing to do. Doing or not doing something because we fear hell is juvenile & superstitious.

Posted by Mouse on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:13 PM (EDT):

When it comes to the application of the three criteria that must be met for a mortal sin, we need to be careful. We need to avoid two extremes.

The first extreme is to define knowledge, consent, etc., so strictly that almost no one can ever be said to meet the criteria; this lets people off the hook too easily, who really do know better, or who have no excuse for not knowing better.

The other extreme is to apply the criteria so strictly that no one can be rightly said to be ignorant, so that even those who have no clue are condemned. That’s not right either.

Two other important points:

First: Whether or not you know something is a serious sin, it is objectively speaking still a serious sin. And all serious sin has serious repercussions in your life, spiritually and often physically as well, even if you don’t know about it. For example, if someone is using artificial birth control or cohabitating and has no clue it’s wrong according to Christ’s teaching or isn’t Christian and doesn’t know they should listen to Jesus…the fact is that their spiritual growth will be stunted as a result because we are designed by God to live purely if we are to function correctly spiritually, much less reach the heights. Worse if they do know, but still stunted even if they don’t.

Second additional point: Those who may be ignorant about the church’s teaching may be culpably ignorant. For example, if you can read, and have been Catholic all your life, and have never bothered to find out what the Church teaches on the most pressing matters of human life and salvation, you are quite likely culpable for your ignorance. God knows if spend lots of time watching tv rather than reading the Bible or Catechism…and then use “being busy” as your excuse for your spiritual ignorance. Do you get off the hook in this case just becuase you’ve been brainwashed by the larger society? If it were me, I wouldn’t bet my eternity on it…

Or, in another example, if you watch TV all the time knowing that it is smutty, and willingly expose yourself to it, then if you are tempted to sin and then fall, you are culpable for exposing yourself to what you know leads to sin. Exposing yourself knowingly to occasions of sin is itself a sin…

I think we have a lot of “sincere” people who know darn well that the church teaches contraception, etc., is wrong. They fall into several camps. Camp one: “I know what the Church says but I think it’s stupid (even though I never bothered to find out why the Church teaches this)...and I refuse to stop using it.” Many people are in this camp. I’m sorry, but it’s true. They may be brainwashed by the secular world, but their attitude stinks and I don’t think Jesus appreciates it!

Camp 2: “I don’t get why contraception is wrong, and I feel bad because the Church says it’s wrong, but I can’t convince myself or my husband/wife that it’s that big of a deal, so I keep on taking communion and never confess it and hope for the best. I’m too terrified of any unplanned children to stop.” The consciences of these folks bother them sometimes, but not enough to make them change their behavior. Only God knows their level of culpability. But if I were a priest and had a chance to talk to them, I’d tell them they need to decide if they value Jesus and heaven more than contraception or unfettered sexual pleasure, or not. It’s up to them.

Camp 3: People who have actually been misinformed by others, including dissenting nuns or priests, that it’s ok. This group, though rarer, is in my opinion, truly truly ignorant and I believe it is those who misled them who will be punished heartily by our Lord if they don’t repent.

Lastly, if you know it’s seriously wrong and you still take communion, that is a mortal sin of sacrilege. It would be better for you not go forward to communion, and make a spiritual communion of some kind until you get your life together.

Posted by Jan on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 5:56 PM (EDT):

Unfortunately, yes; most Catholics in America are going to hell. 1 Corinthians 11:27-28 “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup.” 2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!” 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 “Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.” James 1:22-25 “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.”

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 5:49 PM (EDT):

@Annie: I like you. At first —not so much. You’re not driven by legalism. We’ll meet for coffee sometime and talk more about salvation and the first 8 chapters of Romans.

Posted by Terah James on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 5:12 PM (EDT):

This is an excellent article. The discussion is timely, in light of so many countries considering the legalization of same sex “marriage”. The top two sins God hates (per Scripture) are 1) idolatry and 2) sexual sin.

Not only do we Catholics in America, perhaps the majority of us, violate both of these tenets, but in fact, Catholics around the world violate these too. Apostate non-Catholic so called “Christian” denominations can be lumped into the group too.

In this forum, the question is not limited to whether or not Catholics in only in America will go to hell, but rather, will most of *all* Catholics everywhere go to hell. I say they will: “My people perish through lack of knowledge”. It’s knowledge about which we are aware, but our necks are stiffened, we turn our backs on God, refusing to hear and heed what God’s word tells us, in His word. We go against our own good judgement too- rationalizing.

Regarding:
Posted by Msgr. Charles Pope on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:31 PM (EDT), who wrote that he has “...grave concerns for the salvation of many…. There is an urgency we cannot overlook. Many mysteriously reject God and plainly reject the values of his Kingdom. God will not force them to embrace what they plainly reject….my experience is that most people know what they are doing, they know it is wrong.”

To all the above, I say: “AMEN!” Msgr. Pope gets it! Let’s pray other clergy will too.

Regarding Posted by Manny on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:18 AM (EDT)who wrote @ Casting Crows, “Of course I don’t buy into the 98% or even the majority going to hell. I’m with Pope Benedict: Christ will find a way for most people to get into heaven.”

Manny:
God the Father and Jesus DID find a way for everyone to get into Heaven. The instructions are found in God’s word: the Bible, known as Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

The Way you write of is The Gospel, The Good News of Salvation. There is only one way to the Father, and that is through Jesus. Jesus did not die, so Americans or any other nation can have an “I’m okay, You’re okay” attitude, with our holy God. God is in charge. We do things His way, or we perish, separated from Him, forever. It’s Heaven or Hell: our choice.

Posted by elias attea on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 5:07 PM (EDT):

the church of the east was before rome and they are taught not to judge before God has sayings of St Anthony of the desert

Posted by Jacques on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 4:48 PM (EDT):

Angel, you are GREAT.
Hell exists and our Lady of Fatima said the 3 kids in 1917 (not in the Christ’s times!) that the souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes. She gave them a vision of Hell and they were terrified; She added: “So many souls go to Hell merely because nobody is praying for them!”
But who cares about Fatima?

Posted by Angel on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 4:23 PM (EDT):

WE ARE IN THE STATE OF EMERGENCY! CHURCHES ARE CLOSING!

This is not how we do evangelization Mr. Shea, Mr. Akin and Father Barron.
Hope is great BUT fear IS NOT DESPAIR! Like it said in the good book:

“the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”- Proverbs 9:10

Of course, we are not to despair, DUH! (Shea with his lame Calvin comment!)

I think Father Barron (if you watch his video) has been drinking from the Kool-Aid of Hans Urs von Balthasar too much, with the “you don’t have to believe that anyone is in hell” remark.

This statment from Father Barron which he got from Balthasar undermines the Sacred Scripture text:

“....with fear and trembling work out your salvation.”- PHILIPPIANS 2:12

Balthasar did a lot damage to the church with his “universal salvation” theology.

Well if everybody is a “hidden christian” then why bother to evangelize?
I bet the Devil love this theology?

Jesus, the saints, and the apostles says the opposite of Balthasar but WE MUST LISTEN TO BALTHASAR BECAUSE HE IS THE ESTEEMED THEOLOGIAN!

Oh, Please!!!

“We also should be careful in taking the pessimistic ones and applying them directly to our own age, because they were written in and about an age in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness and the knowledge of the true God and his Son was severely limited compared to today.”

Mr. AKIN the above comment is crazy,

We are now in a Neo-Pagan society that uses porno 24/7 and kills the unborn by severing their spinal cords and cutting their feet off and place them in a jar as a trophy. Is this a great society? We are worst off than before Christ came!

So this is how we do the new evangelization by using Balthasar as our MODEL?

Wow, let’s just hope that everyone goes to heaven and be LAZY, hooray!!!!

Posted by Jacques on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 4:21 PM (EDT):

Andy, you are wrong.
Our Lady in Fatima said that the sexual sins are those which draw a great number of people the more efficiently into Hell.

Posted by Jacques on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 4:15 PM (EDT):

Yes, the full knowledge of the mortal sinfulness is necessary for a sin to be mortal. But are we sure these sinners merely don’t know in what are their sins mortal? Indeed aren’t they knowing that, but rather are considering this “opinion” as “outdated”? A frequent way of thinking in the post conciliar times.
IMHO, the liability of that situation should be transfered on the clerics, on those who teach the RCC’s catechism who no longer address these issues.
Did you hear once in an homily during these last 10 years any priest speaking about the difference between mortal and venial sins? And about the necessary confession of the sins, and about the mortal sin leading straight to Hell if unconfessed?
Yes, if the salt loses its taste, it is good to be discarded in the street and trampled under the feet of the passers-by…

Posted by Andy on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 4:15 PM (EDT):

The only sins mentioned in the post are sexual sins. These are hardly the only ones that can lead to hell.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 4:09 PM (EDT):

Hi Crowns, thanks for explaining your point of view a little better. I’m not sure that the church necessarily says tradition is more important or equal to the gospel, I think the understanding is that it’s scripture, tradition, and the magisterium working together. At least that’s my understanding of things. I think the point being that sacred tradition existed for decades before the first book was written, and that the magisterium finalized the canon we use today. I always understood that they were all important but never heard anyone say that one trumps the other.

Posted by charles harmett on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 3:56 PM (EDT):

to judy
I am just curious, what truth are you referring to.

Posted by Judy on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 3:48 PM (EDT):

Dear Jimmy, I wanted to thank you and tell you that as I read your article, tears of joy ran down my face at the truth and hope (which does not disappoint ) that my eyes were reading. I was stunned at negativity of my brothers and sisters, I am so sorry. God sees the Good, we are the ones who see the Bad (and judge it). I pray God blesses you and your ministry today and always. Judy

Posted by charles harmett on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 3:38 PM (EDT):

Are most american catholics going to hell? most american catholics could not find hell on a map.{lol} Or rome for that matter. Most american catholics know next to nothing about the saints or just generally speaking the history of the church. Remember, we live in a time when everything is on the web. Therefore most american catholics are not really rooted in the tradition of the church. the tradition is there but they choose to ignore it. Their whole mindset is disneyfied. This makes them susceptible to whatever the latest sinful trend is.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 3:38 PM (EDT):

@Annie: I respect you. Tradition cannot have equality with the gospel. Jesus outlined what was critical for salvation. We should have no problem, though, with keeping tradition and exercising ritual and custom for even Jesus adhered to Jewish practices. Thus, I support tradition and custom but realize we will not be judged by it.
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Jesus said this earth will pass away but His words will not.

Posted by Alex on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 3:18 PM (EDT):

@ Annie,

You’re absolutely right. Few people do realize what NFP is really for, and some are even encouraged to use it as a means of discerning God’s will: if God supersede’s all your efforts at timing and avoidance, you were supposed to have a child. That’s, sadly, a lie being propagated as truth.

Essentially, so many people no longer have a mindset of chastity and obedience: from so many channels (books, magazines, newspapers, television, movies, video games, bill boards, advertisements, radio, etc.) people are deluged in vulgarity. One becomes desensitized to it; but one does not become desensitized to chastity: one begins to hate and revile it. That was my experience in college: those women who were truly chaste and modest were ridiculed and held in contempt.

We as the Catholic Church in America have a lot to answer for. But the answer is not liberal nun/priests and married clergy.

Posted by charles harmett on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 3:05 PM (EDT):

to jimmy
get a job in a liberal-minded catholic school and try teaching the teachings of the catholic church, as outlined in the catechism. it is a good way to find out which staff members are demonically possessed. I’m serious.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 2:48 PM (EDT):

NFP is only to be used under grave circumstances tp space the births of children, not prevent them. I highly doubt that most who practice NFP realize that.

Posted by charles harmett on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 2:44 PM (EDT):

Back to the original question. If you asked this question of each and every catholic of course they would tell you no, AS IT PERTAINS TO THEMSELF!!! It might be better to ask this question of the bishops. Are the catholic people in your diocese going to hell? Does the average catholic in your diocese follow the rules of the church? In my opinion the bishops need to go back to doing the grunt work of sheperding the sheep and not worry so much about immigration policy, civil rights, etc.. Let social justice take care of itself. I live in the diocese of Trenton, NJ,. The nuns on the bus were welcomed here, unfortunately.

Posted by Alex on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 2:43 PM (EDT):

We have lost the culture war. This nation is pagan, and a great number of Catholics have gone over, too. Unless you are willing to admit this “pastoral” problem, you can’t treat the disease.

Imagine this scenario: a pastor tells his flock: if you’re using contraception, you will go to hell. Now his flock is no longer ignorant, so now the three criteria are met: the flock knows its a grave matter, and continued use of contraceptives thus is the deliberate committing of a grave sin.

But let’s get real. As I was talking to a friend of mine who is a medical student in residence at a Catholic hospital, he told me contraception is literally shoved down the throats of women: they are treated like imbeciles if they try to “NFP” their way out of being subscribed contraceptives; they are told that they are “crazy” if they really think NFP will work; they are made to feel that they should be on the pill after their second pregnancy: “so, what method will you be using,” is the lead in question to a new mother of two. And let’s not even get into Catholic who are aborting children left and right and supporting “gay marriage.”

Jimmy’s pastoralism is the exact reason we’re in this mess in the first place. If we keep it up, let’s face it, we have no chance.

God have mercy.

Posted by chris awo on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 2:27 PM (EDT):

Mr Jimmy, a big problem that needs to be addressed is failure of the teaching authorities of the church to adequately explain church doctrine. The emphasis seems to be on dictating what people should do or shouldn’t do. But the most important thing is the why. Why can i not cohabit? Explain to the people why. Why is euthanasia a sin? Explain to the people why. What about pornography? Explain to the people why it is bad. Dont just dictate to them. So many things in our catholic faith are so well grounded that most sane minded people will fall in love with them if only they knew the WHY underpinning the doctrine. This should be the focus of the new evangelization.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 1:50 PM (EDT):

Hi Crowns, so just curious, are you a practicing Catholic who doesn’t recognize sacred tradition? Asking sincerely, not to be a jerk.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 1:36 PM (EDT):

@chris awo: [“St. Francis of Assisi recommends at least 80(eighty) Our Father every day for those who wish to be perfect.”]
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That’s totally without Scriptural foundation. In fact, Jesus says exactly the opposite. God is not impressed by recitation of repetitional prayers. When can He speak if you’re doing all the talking?

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 1:29 PM (EDT):

@Annie: I read it. Unlike with most all Catechists, with you I might be able to have reasonable conversation over coffee even to the point of accepting tradition as not having equivilancy with the gospel. There’s a likelihood someone such as yourself might not find too much favor among the USCCB since thinking is not allowed.

Posted by Patt on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 1:25 PM (EDT):

My observation: Living in a wicked world—only ten people in the confession line—- yet EVERYONE goes to Communion. Go figure…

Posted by chris awo on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:41 PM (EDT):

Why does God care about what we human beings are up to? Why did he give up his only begotten Son for us? Why all the hue and cry about the morality of the average cathloic in America? Indeed even the psalmist(cf 8) asks - what is man that God cares about him; mortal man that God thinks about him? If someone wants to live his/her life recklessly why should God care? This is the question we should ask ourselves.
The answer supplied by the Psalmist (cf 82) is: “I say, “You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.”
Herein lies the why of the hue and cry of the Good News. We are playing for the highest stakes ever. The Almighty God wants to turn us into copies of Himself with the Lord Jesus as the First born. If the stakes are so high is it surprising that the training and preparation can be pretty tough at times? Is the stress worth it? If the prize is a share in divine power and attribute would that not be an understated question?
Is that not why St. Paul talks about the crown waiting for him at the end of his life? “For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. (cf 2 Timothy 4)
Therefore when i say at least one Our Father every day - that is for beginners. St. Francis of Assisi recommends at least 80(eighty) Our Father every day for those who wish to be perfect.
Mr Jimmy, it is not a matter of how many will be in Heaven or Hell, but a question of all Catholics knowing what really this is at stake and therefore saying, “I will give it whatever it takes to be with the Lord Jesus on that DAY.”

Posted by Msgr. Charles Pope on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:31 PM (EDT):

As with everything Mr. Aikin writes, the post is very thorough. I am less sanguine than he is however, and have grave concerns for the salvation of many. I would be more in line with what Ralph Martin has written and with the weight of Catholic tradition. There is an urgency we cannot overlook. Many mysteriously reject God and plainly reject the values of his Kingdom. God will not force them to embrace what they plainly reject. Perhaps we can hope that many are “too stupid” to go to Hell, but my experience is that most people know what they are doing, they know it is wrong.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:25 PM (EDT):

I never implied that God was waiting with a hammer. My point was not to be presumptuous and just assume that God would have mercy on you if you have sinned intentionally and without repenting. Apparently you neglected to read the rest of my post.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:17 PM (EDT):

@Annie: [“I will again reiterate the words of St. Paul. Work our your salvation with fear and trembling.”]
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Since you are a Catechist, I expect you to know better. But then, every diocesean “trained” Catechist uses this passage as Catholic SOP.
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Paul’s letters are all written to the audience of Believers in Christ,—not to unbeliever’s. So, to the saints in Philippi he is writing this epistle, and they are those who are in the body.
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The reference to fear and trembling is that we recognize the awesome power of God in our lives and the mighty work He has done to bring us from darkness to light and of His promise to continuously walk with us.
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It has nothing to do with being afraid and that the Lord is always waiting to drop the hammer on you. That’s not how He operates in the lives of those who belong to Him. It also has nothing to do with you “working” anything out to earn salvation for that would be impossible.
It doesn’t mean you do nothing, sit back and relax—but that you always remain open to serve Him in whatever way He leads you.

Posted by samantha on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:12 PM (EDT):

I’m not as optimistic as Jimmy. I do believe ignorance in our day with so much information accessible, is largely negligent ignorance.

I wonder about those like St. Monica who shed so many tears for her son. It seems her peace was disturbed over a sinner. Did she become a saint because of her tears, or did her tears hinder her sanctification?
What about Saints Jacinta and Francisco who suffered so much because they were worried about the loss of so many souls. They offered everything for sinners. It seems their peace was also disturbed. It also seems as though these dispositions may have made them holy.

I wonder about not worrying so much. I’m not sure that is a good thing. Worrying about others may motivate us to do something for them. It may also make us work harder on ourselves by not allowing excuses to justify our continuation in sin. That seems the wiser path to me.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:03 PM (EDT):

Wow Crowns that is awful. That makes me so angry and it’s no wonder people are so poorly catechized. In that circumstance, if the parish priest failed to make it right, then that priest should have been told that the bishop would be notified, and then the bishop should (hopefully) have been notified.

Indeed there are people within the Catholic Church who are not doing what they should. There are ways to deal with this and I encourage Catholics to take advantage of correcting the issues if they know what’s going on is wrong.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 11:51 AM (EDT):

@Laurie: [“it seems we have gone to the opposite extreme in our “feel comfortable” preaching by watering down what is clearly taught in Scripture and by the Lord Jesus himself.”]
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There was a new liberal feminist nun in our parish, and appointed Pastoral Associate who also became the new RCIA leader. In the very first session she told the catechumens “everyone is going to Heaven.”
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Two members of the RCIA team met with her after the session and told her that’s not what the gospel says. In fact, Jesus said exactly the opposite. The RCIA nun refused to accept what the gospel clearly states and those two members of the team resigned. The Pastor also took no action on this either.
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What’s the takeaway? When Jesus and Paul warn of false teachers, they are speaking of those inside the church.

Posted by Laurie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 11:29 AM (EDT):

I think that we have to be very careful about this Jimmy. Although, I agree that hellfire preaching is not the best approach to evangelization, it seems we have gone to the opposite extreme in our “feel comfortable” preaching by watering down what is clearly taught in Scripture and by the Lord Jesus himself. In this culture we have clearly become desensitized to all manner of grave sin. This is wholly due to rampant sin and will not provide an easy excuse upon judgement day…at least for the Christian nations who know well what the Lord Jesus taught about these sins (“some will say Lord, Lord, but I will say I do not know you”. Although the Lord’s greatest attribute is mercy, the warnings of judgement for sin are clear in the Bible, in Church teachings, and in the writings of many, many of the Saints. Our redemption was not cheap, and we should not expect our own salvation will be cheap when it comes to our personal responsibility in our own redemption. Although hellfire preaching is no longer popular because it is not a happy message, we do still need to be warned that “Yes, there is a hell, and yes, you may go there for unrepented sin.” Even for youth, we do not know the number of days that are given to us. We must not give the idea that there is a lot of time to convert. Do not wait to repent, as you may not have 80 years to convert to truth. If knowing God’s love and loving God back does not turn someone away from sin and fear of hell is the first order of conversion, then at least it is a start toward living a holy life that hopefully will lead toward living a good life for love of God and not from fear of hell. However, many Catholics have rejected even the reality of hell, the reality of the enemy of humanity. This leaves the soul extremely vulnerable to ending up there and the shepherds are obliged to not only preach about the rewards of heaven, but also of the punishment of hell.

Posted by Anderson Thomas on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 11:25 AM (EDT):

One man drowns in the ocean and one in a cup on a cup of water, Both drown. Do you want to place your eternal avoidance of hell on technicality. do you really think we are going to play Lawyer legal rule stunts before the Lord, and fool him. “We are convicted by the holy spirit” God knows what was and is in our hearts. The law of love applies to those who have not heard the good news of the gospel. The law of love is your conscious stirred by the holy spirit. So a heathen, due to cultural norms, may not know having more than one wife is a mortal sin. But he or she knows that cheating on their spouses is woefully wrong. Some write that I am a nice person and I give more than mother Theressa. Great god will reward your good works accordingly. But heed This “hell is full to rim of nice guys.” Because being nice is not the prerequisite for enternce to heaven. striving to become Holy is.

Posted by Tonya on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:32 AM (EDT):

It would be more advantageous and clarifying if we would use the language of the catechism when explaining mortal sin.I.E. ” The church teaches us that contraception is very grave matter,and could be very dangerous territory.” Rather than saying sin is able to be measured by outsiders in an objective way, it would be easier for people to understand these nuances by referring to grave matter.(Even though you are saying the same thing essentially..)

Posted by ekillile on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:24 AM (EDT):

what is the greatest problem judgement or silence.

actually i would choose silence in the face of evil.

who are the culprits? In my opinion the culprits are our clergy.

People receiving the Sacraments in spite of “individual” life styles
that are in error. Look our parish clergy know who is at mass just for social pressure ie grandma died; Jane is getting married; Bobby is being confirmed: great

Don’t prance to the front of the church in mock holiness to receive Communion. Give God a break! If you haven’t been to mass in a while
haven’t followed most of the “rules” receive Christ spirituality.
He will come into your heart if you ask him

The Bishop/Cardinal understands politics. Yet will not speak out against
several prominent politicians who not only support abortion homosexuality
etc. These politicians declare themselves “good” Catholics. The silence is deafing. They should be excommunicated until they have a change of heart.

So if anyone is heading downstairs to shovel the coal I feel that it is the clergy who remain silent.

This is why Pope Francis will not give Communion. No the “pic” of him and whoever is not necessary

ed killilea

kearny nj

Posted by Larry on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:23 AM (EDT):

“The fact is that the Lord Himself has stated in public revelation that there are a lot of people in hell.

Um, no. He has not.” He certainly has. He said the damned are “many,” the saved “few.” We can’t extrapolate exact numbers from that. But it certainly means that hell is crowded, not empty or nearly so. “God desired all to be saved and I think he is very generous, fair, patient and loving with us way more than many us deserve. He is the best Father in the world!” He is indeed, Homeschooling Works. But we are not, and in the end many of us will choose to frustrate his patience until time has run out.

Posted by markrite on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:18 AM (EDT):

I did not read every rsponse to what was posted here by Jimmy Akin, but in a cursory read I did not find ANY eference to what our Blessed Mother did at Fatima in regard to what’s being said here. She showed the children at Fatima the IMMENSE numbers of people “drifting like snowflakes” into hell. And that was in 1917, before the vast communications apparatus we live under came to fruition. No internet, No t.v., No rapid communication of impetus to commit sins of the flesh, etc., and so we have a dichotomy here. Is the vision Our Lady communicated to the children re hell TRUE or not? Sin surely was NOT COMMITTED with the FREQUENCY that seems to be the case today in the twenty-first century, due to SO MANY intense temptations hrough the aforementioned stimuli’s. And we haven’t even TOUCHED upon the holocaust of legalized abortion, poisoned frit of so much adultery and fornication. SO WHAT GIVES HERE? Just asking. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE

Posted by philomena on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:05 AM (EDT):

St. Therese of Lisieux claimed reading this book as a great grace in her life: The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life by Fr. Charles Arminjon. It has a permanant place in my spiritual reading library regarding this topic.

Posted by kelso on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 10:02 AM (EDT):

Meaning no offense, I do not think you should be answering this question as a layman. Lack of the subjective full consent of the will does not negate supine and culpable ignorance. Any Catholic who does not know the Church’s position on artificial birth control, if there are any, is conveniently ignorant. COhabitation, forget it. If that’s not convenient ignorance, nothing is. What about grace? You totally ignore the fact of actual grace.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:39 AM (EDT):

“God desired all to be saved and I think he is very generous, fair, patient and loving with us way more than many us deserve.”

I will again reiterate the words of St. Paul. Work our your salvation with fear and trembling. Yes, God is wonderful and generous and all of these things. But he’s also God. He’s not going to turn his head and overlook sins when people have knowingly and intentionally offended him. God doesn’t send people to hell, and while judgment is ultimately his, how we arrive at that judgment is ultimately up to us.

Posted by Ann on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:34 AM (EDT):

While it is only God’s right when it comes to final judgement, we are taught that unrepented mortal sin will condemn us. While not judging others, it does dismay me when I see hoards of people going up to receive Communion but when I go to confession I would be amazed to see more than a dozen. Our only job is to pray for one another.

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:24 AM (EDT):

Hi Anonymous, no problem. I was just trying to point out that it takes more than saying a prayer to be forgiven. None of us can be sure of PERFECT contrition. If I go out and murder someone, and I’m truly sorry, I am still in a state of mortal sin and require the sacrament of confession to be forgiven. Of course if something happens to me before I can get to confession, I place myself at the mercy of God. The examination of conscience is VERY important before confession. How many of us pray and say “sorry God for my sins” without REALLY thinking about what we’ve done? It’s easy to generally say sorry without even truly knowing why you are asking forgiveness. It takes effort to really scour your conscience and recognize the sins. Did you gossip about your neighbor? Do you realize THAT is a mortal sin if it changes the person on the receiving end’s opinion about the one you are gossiping about? What did you fail to do? Could you have helped someone in need but chosen not to? Did you overeat? Drink too much alcohol? Live a life of decadence and not helped your brother? Zone out during mass? I wonder if most people who recite the Our Father daily are thinking about these things. If you have no examination of conscience then how can you truly find your weaknesses and thus improve your way of living? Yes, Jesus makes it clear that if you don’t forgive, he ain’t forgiving you. But that is only PART of the story.

Posted by Manny on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 9:18 AM (EDT):

@Casting Crows
That was nice and I pretty much agree with everything you say, but what does that have to do with the 98%? I was speaking about an internal logic that the average church goer would have if the 98% or even the majority of people were going to hell. I wasn’t necessarily talking about myself. If it were true that 98% of people are going to hell, the Church ought to be up front and tell the congregation. Then each person can decide whether they are wasting their time and donations. Otherwise it’s deception and misrepresentation.

Of course I don’t buy into the 98% or even the majority going to hell. I’m with Pope Benedict: Christ will find a way for most people to get into heaven.

Posted by one annoymous on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:29 AM (EDT):

Annie, Sorry, I did not mean to chime in on this as I did not notice but I now see Chris posted to you for your input.

Posted by one annoymous on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 8:20 AM (EDT):

We are not God, all knowing, perfect in wisdom and knowledge of all things and Who is Justice, so we can not judge to condemn others to Heaven or hell (for we don’t know all as God knows everything… but we can and are suppose to judge good and evil, right and wrong and what IS sin as God clearly helps us to discern and tells us to do). So we are to forgive others as we pray in the Our Father, “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…” But God judges rightly and His Justice is Perfect because He is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. And in asking for forgiveness we must repent as God asks us to do. If we are not willing to forgive others, will God forgive us? The Our Father says “as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

Posted by Annie on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:15 AM (EDT):

Hi Chris, I think that is partially correct. Forgiving others is only part of the story. We have to be TRULY sorry, have TRUE contrition, and ask for our own forgiveness. That brings us back to the sacrament of confession which was instituted by Christ himself.

Posted by chris awo on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 7:04 AM (EDT):

dear annie,
kindly note the following:
“For if you forgive men their sins, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their sins, neither will your Father forgive your sins.” (cf Matthew 6 v 15)
“And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” cf Matthew 18 v 34
It seems to me the easiest and fastest way for a christian to go to heaven is to forgive every single hurt and offence commit against him/her in the name of the Lord Jesus. What do you think?

Posted by one annoymous on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 6:31 AM (EDT):

Here is a perfect example of why many people are going to hell. They want to interject into Holy Scripture their own desires and insinuations on and on instead of believing and accepting what God is telling us. Please know God and His Word. He is telling us there is hell and many people will go there, it is very clear, read through the New Testament and then read the Old Testament. We have to stop trying to make God who we WANT Him to be and know God for Who He IS. Yes, God is “the best Father in the world” but He is ALSO GOD!! He is Justice and there will be Justice for all people and He tells us clearly what that Justice is (and without God’s Justice there is no Love), He WARNS us, Christ says He is WARNING us: “I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

The Scriptures are plentiful, why will some just refuse to believe them?...

Luke 13: 13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Posted by Homeschooling Works on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 1:28 AM (EDT):

I agree with what is being said here. I have faith that most of us will be saved due to the purification of a purgatorial state after death. God desired all to be saved and I think he is very generous, fair, patient and loving with us way more than many us deserve. He is the best Father in the world!

Posted by Casting Crowns on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:35 AM (EDT):

@Manny: [“Why even go to church or support the church?”]
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You’ll have to look into your own heart and respond to that. Were you only “trained’ to go? Are you going because it makes your wife happy? Some people go for social reasons. For you to even ask that question is suspect.
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God’s over-arching plan for His children is that we abide (remain) in Him. John 15: 1-5 speaks of this abidance. If you remain in Him you will produce much “fruit.”
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What does that fruit look like? v1-8 >>>Abide,—is to LOVE God. v9-17 >>>Love,—is to LOVE one another and v18-27 Tell,—is to LOVE your neighbor.
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Christ desires intimacy over ritual. Intimacy with Christ requires dialog, vulnerability, transparency and reciprocity. Until you can lay it all down you will never have the intimacy Jesus spoke of His having with the Father. The true cost of discipleship is high. It will cost you “self.” You’ll need to decide if that price is too high. Refer to the parable of the Merchant and the Pearl of “great price.”
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Re the “many” and the “few,” —It’s one thing to believe in God. It’s something else to actually trust Him (in everything). That includes your life.

Posted by Kenneth on Monday, Jun 24, 2013 12:20 AM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

“But we *cannot* hope for what we know is in fact absolutely impossible. I don’t pray in the hope that the Japanese will not bomb Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. I *know* that the answer to such a pray is without any possibility of change, “No.” If I really *know* for certain that it is a total waste of time to pray for the salvation of the world (as we do in the liturgy) then neither I nor any other person can—or should—pray that prayer since we would be praying in *direct contradiction to God’s revealed will*. We might as well pray that he make black white or declare abortion a sacrament. It *can’t* be done. But if you are right (which you aren’t, but let’s grant for the sake of argument), then the Church in the most holy liturgy, has prayed for something in *direct contradiction to the will of God* because she prays for the salvation of the world when God has (allegedly) revealed that he absolutely refuses to grant that prayer.”

It is not my contention that it is metaphysically impossible for all to be saved. It is also not my contention that God doesn’t desire for all men to be saved. It is my contention that all or even most men WILL NOT be saved. We can pray for all sickness and disease to end tomorrow. Its not metaphysically impossible or a logical contradiction (like turn black white or make a married bachelor) but we know that won’t happen this side of heaven. We can hope for it and that’s great! But formulating arguments to promote that any such thing or *supposing* that any such thing actually is the case is misleading and morally wrong.

“Of course it’s not a certainty that all will accept his grace. As I say, presumption is a sin against hope just as despair is. As to the notion that he has us pray for something despite the absolute certitude he will not answer that prayer, and all in order to be able to tell sinners “Toldja so!” I’m sorry but this seems to be a massively Calvinist take on the universal love of God for sinners.”

As has been shown here extensively it is the take shared by Aquinas, Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, etc etc etc. You would attribute to these men a “Calvinistic doctrine of despair”?!?! If Tradition is to mean anything at all you can not continue in this error. As Catholics we can not contradict the early church in matters that they are in unanimous agreement on. This is one such case.

“Absolutely false. What Benedict says is that we may “suppose” that bulk of middlin’ humanity, open to grace but not perfectly so, may ultimately experience salvation via purgatory. It’s a reasonable speculation rooted in the theological virtue of hope. Your reaction to that perfectly illustrates my point that, to those clinging to Calvinist suppositions of despair (and your suppositions about the Elect are redolent of all that) hope is taken for universalism, while to universalist analyses, hope is take for despair. All Benedict (and Jimmy) do is note that it is reasonable to hope for the bulk of mankind, not that they know anything about the End.”

Calvinist supposition of the elect? I’m promoting the CATHOLIC supposition of the elect. No matter how many ECF are piled on stating their agreement you turn your head the other way in order to promote an utterly novel idea borne out of the theological chaos of the post V2 era. Are you familiar with Fr Garrigou-LeGrange? Thomism in general? You are uneducated in the broader catholic traditions on salvation and unconditional election the elect etc and are attributing all such things to calvin when these teachings are deeply rooted in our churches history. You have alot to learn Mark. You can have the novel musing of Pope Benedict. I’ll side with the supposition of despair taught by 100% of the Church’s greatest doctors and theologians.

“they said *nothing* of the kind. *You* heard that because your Calvinist hermaneutic of despair, which imagines that it know the elect to be few and imagines that it knows the fate of the bulk of mankind, has taught you to regard expressions of hope as though they are definitive universalist pronouncements. And so you put words in both Jimmy’s and Benedict’s mouths. They said *nothing like* what you attribute to them, Kenneth.”

The article is posted for anyone to read and I stand by my statements

“Actually, if memory serves, Origen said that nobody, not even Satan, was going to hell because God’s victory would be so overwhelming. The Church rejected this, not because it knows that lots of people are going to hell, but because *it doesn’t know*. The Fathers were inclined to assume that most people would wind up in hell but since there cannot, by the nature of the gospel, be a claim that *everybody* will wind up in hell (or what’s the point?) they remained free to hold that speculation. But (speaking of dogma) there has *never* been a dogmatic statement to the effect that most of the human race is surely damned while there *has* been persistent liturgical habit of praying for the salvation of all. So the Church remains—and will remain to the end—agnostic about the percentages of damned and saved and Catholics can legitimately speculate on the matter as Benedict has done.”

You say they were “inclined” I say they were unanimous. Tradition is binding whether or not the Church has pronounced a thing as dogma. The ECF were absolutely unanimous on this topic. You are not free to disagree.

“I think the liturgical prayers of Holy Mother Church for the salvation of all men are more than sufficient to provide a basis for the theological virtue of hope for the salvation of all. The teaching is Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. Benedict is well within the Tradition here. You should try doing as Jimmy says and contemplating his words instead of reflexively rejecting them. You are under absolutely no compulsion to profess universalism (I, in fact, reject universalism as the sin of presumption). But you are bound to stop accusing Benedict and Jimmy of universalism when, in fact, all they are doing is articulating the theological virtue of hope.”

I have never accused these men of universalism ONCE. I have taken their argument at face value which is that the vast majority of humanity will be in heaven one day. I can posses HOPE for the possibility of ny own salvation. I can have hope for the human race that’s great too. But when one is formulating arguments based off the technical definition of mortal sin and then stating that everyone imbetween Stalin and Aquinas will be in heaven one day is absurd! For the simple and obvious reason that scripture and the unanimous consent of the fathers say otherwise.

PS I have personally never been a Calvinist. I am currently writing from the Neo-Scholastic thomistic tradition personified in Garrigou-Legrange. I believe in many things similar to what you call Calvinism but what has been deemed as acceptable by our magisterium. I think that our theological framework starts from such different places that its hard to find agreement on such a specific topic as this. Hopefully this talk has been helpful for both of us as I certainly have a greater respect for yalls position now then when we first started. I still side with Augustine and Thomas and Jerome etc etc…. But I can better see where you are coming from.

in the peace of christ

Kenneth

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 11:31 PM (EDT):

I said that the SUPERNATURAL THEOLOGICAL VIRTUE OF HOPE that comes with sanctifying grace involves the confidence that God wants all people to be saved.

Then what are we arguing about?

It does NOT involve hoping that all people WANT to be saved, and that all people will in the end PERMIT Him to save them—which is a merely natural sentiment—although it’s something we ceaselessly pray for, asking God to give everyone the grace to want salvation and to respond to His efforts.

I make suppositions about what 7 billion strangers want. I simply note that Benedict’s “we may suppose” does in fact stand within the pale of the Tradition since we do, in fact, pray in the liturgy for the salvation of all. Sorry I misunderstood you to be advocating a me ‘n Jesus view of salvation and that you do, in fact, acknowledge the corporate dimension of salvation.

The fact is that the Lord Himself has stated in public revelation that there are a lot of people in hell.

Um, no. He has not. We know *nothing* about the population of hell. And because we know nothing, we have neither despair nor presumption, but only hope. Sorry you are upset at me, but I think Jimmy and Benedict have been treated very unjustly in these comboxes and I think it my duty to say so. They have virtually been called heretics, which is simply false.

Posted by Manny on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 11:23 PM (EDT):

Think about this logic: God is supposed to love each and every single individual, with a love that is beyond human capacity to love. And yet by the strictest of rules, the overwhelming majority of humanity will be going to hell. Or this. Jesus tells us we are to forgive trepasses seventy times seven times, or in essence an infinite amount. And God will not forgive our trespasses if at the moment of death we don’t have the opportunity to confess? If the majority of humanity will not be going to heaven, why should they bother to try at all? Why even go to church or support the church? Frankly to claim that 98% of humanity will be going to hell, and I assume the claiment is including himself in the 2%, is an act of incredible pride. Thank God for Pope Benedict’s statement.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 10:54 PM (EDT):

@Bill Foley: [”“In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.”]
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The Bible says in Genesis 6 “The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.” In truth, the heart of man is hostile to God. Today is no different than in the time of Noah. The (fleshly) nature of man has not changed. We all have a sin nature due to Adam. However, we will either live in the flesh or choose to walk in the Spirit. Romans 1 discusses this.
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[“There are many who arrive at the faith.”]
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That is somewhat misleading as stated by Pope Gregory the Great since Paul tell us that faith is a gift. You do not arrive “at the faith” nor does any person “find God. It is He who finds you. Nevertheless, Gregory does have it correct when he speaks of the “elect” being few.
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Even Evangelist Billy Graham takes the same position as Pope Gregory. In his 50 years of evangelism and of the hundreds of thousands coming forward when invited to accept Christ as Savior, Graham has stated his belief that relatively very few are saved —perhaps only 2%. Understanding the Parable of the Soils is key.

Posted by Shin on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 9:50 PM (EDT):

“The path to Heaven is narrow, rough and full of wearisome and trying ascents, nor can it be trodden without great toil; and therefore wrong is their way, gross their error, and assured their ruin who, after the testimony of so many thousands of saints, will not learn where to settle their footing.”

St. Robert Southwell

As quoted above. Because it bears repeating.

Posted by Bill Foley on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 9:27 PM (EDT):

It is the teaching of the papal magisterium that those outside the Catholic Church can be saved. Here is a paragraph from an encyclical of Blessed Pius IX.

Salvation Outside Church
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX
AUGUST 10, 1863
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Posted by Bill Foley on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 9:10 PM (EDT):

Saint Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church, teaches how to be saved, namely, prayer. Here is a quote.

THE GREAT MEANS OF SALVATION AND OF PERFECTION
By Saint Alponsus De Liguori, Doctor of the Church

Page 1: “But I do not think that I have written a more useful work than the present, in which I speak of prayer as a necessary and certain means of obtaining salvation, and all the graces that we require for that object. If it were in my power, I would distribute a copy of it to every Catholic in the world in order to show him the absolute necessity of prayer for salvation.”

Page 24: “In several places above quoted, and especially in his book of Sentences, he (Saint Thomas Aquinas) expressly lays it down as certain that everyone is bound to pray because—as he asserts—in no other way can the graces necessary for salvation be obtained from God except by prayer.”

Page 30: “He who prays is certainly saved. He who prays not is certainly damned.”

On August 1, 2012, Pope Benedict XVI gave a talk on Saint Alphonsus and Prayer, in which he agreed with the holy Doctor that prayer is necessary for salvation.

Posted by Bill Foley on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 8:55 PM (EDT):

On the Fewness of the Saved

“The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God.”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“The common opinion is that the greater part of adults is lost.”
Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“The greater number of men still say to God: Lord we will not serve Thee; we would rather be slaves of the devil, and condemned to Hell, than be Thy servants. Alas! The greatest number, my Jesus - we may say nearly all - not only do not love Thee, but offend Thee and despise Thee.”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“Saint Teresa, as the Roman Rota attests, never fell into any mortal sin; but still Our Lord showed her the place prepared for her in Hell; not because she deserved Hell, but because, had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned.”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“All persons desire to be saved, but the greater part, because they will not adopt the means of being saved, fall into sin and are lost. [...] In fact, the Elect are much fewer than the damned, for the reprobate are much more numerous than the Elect.”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led into the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today’s Feast-Day: we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how few they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the Elect?”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above; and, at the summit, measured only a single cubit. [...] It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived: for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal-minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“As a man lives, so shall he die.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

“It is certain that few are saved.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The Lord called the world a ‘field’ and all the faithful who draw near to him ‘wheat.’ All through the field, and around the threshing-floor, there is both wheat and chaff. But the greater part is chaff; the lesser part is wheat, for which is prepared a barn not a fire. [...] The good also are many, but in comparison with the wicked the good are few. Many are the grains of wheat, but compared with the chaff, the grains are few.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

“If you wish to imitate the multitude, then you shall not be among the few who shall enter in by the narrow gate.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.”
-Saint Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Many begin well, but there are few who persevere.”
-Saint Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church

“So that you will better appreciate the meaning of Our Lord’s words, and perceive more clearly how few the Elect are, note that Christ did not say that those who walked in the path to Heaven are few in number, but that there were few who found that narrow way. It is as though the Saviour intended to say: The path leading to Heaven is so narrow and so rough, so overgrown, so dark and difficult to discern, that there are many who never find it their whole life long. And those who do find it are constantly exposed to the danger of deviating from it, of mistaking their way, and unwittingly wandering away from it, because it is so irregular and overgrown.”
-Saint Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church

“What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!”
-Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.”
-Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

“If you want to be certain of being in the number of the Elect, strive to be one of the few, not one of the many. And if you would be quite sure of your salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few; that is to say, do not follow the great majority of mankind, but follow those who enter upon the narrow way, who renounce the world, who give themselves to prayer, and who never relax their efforts by day or night, so that they may attain everlasting blessedness.”
-Saint Anselm, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.”
-Saint Bede the Venerable, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Nor should we think that it is enough for salvation that we are no worse off than the mass of the careless and indifferent, or that in our faith we are, like so many others, uninstructed.”
-Saint Bede the Venerable, Father and Doctor of the Church

“It is as though Jesus said: “O My Father, I am indeed going to clothe myself with human flesh, but the greater part of the world will set no value on my blood!”
-Saint Isidore of Seville, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The greater part of men will set no value on the blood of Christ, and will go on offending Him.”
-Saint Isidore of Seville, Father and Doctor of the Church

“How few the Elect are may be understood from the multitude being cast out.”
-Saint Hilary of Poitiers, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue.”
-Saint Justin the Martyr

“There are a select few who are saved.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

“Those who are saved are in the minority.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

“It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace.”
-Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church

“Bad confessions damn the majority of Christians.”
-Saint Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church

“I had the greatest sorrow for the many souls that condemned themselves to Hell, especially those Lutherans. [...] I saw souls falling into hell like snowflakes.”
-Saint Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church

“Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.”
-Saint John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church

“The number of the elect is so small — so small — that, were we to know how small it is, we would faint away with grief: one here and there, scattered up and down the world!”
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

“Be one of the small number who find the way to life, and enter by the narrow gate into Heaven. Take care not to follow the majority and the common herd, so many of whom are lost. Do not be deceived; there are only two roads: one that leads to life and is narrow; the other that leads to death and is wide. There is no middle way.”
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

“A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever. According to statistics, approximately 80,000 persons die every day. How many of these will die in mortal sin, and how many will be condemned! For, as their lives have been, so also will be their end.”
-Saint Anthony Mary Claret

“Nothing afflicts the heart of Jesus so much as to see all His sufferings of no avail to so many.”
-Saint John Mary Vianney

“Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to Heaven? Alas, my children, we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter.”
-Saint John Mary Vianney

“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard-pickers have passed.”
Saint John Mary Vianney

“Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.”
-Saint John Neumann

“So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved!”
-Saint Philip Neri

“Ah! How very small is the kingdom of Jesus Christ! So many nations have never had the faith!”
-Saint Peter Julian Eymard

“A great number of Christians are lost.”
-Saint Leonard of Port Maurice

“Ah, how many souls lose Heaven and are cast into Hell!”
-Saint Francis Xavier

“Ah! A great many persons live constantly in the state of damnation!”
-Saint Vincent de Paul

“Get out of the filth of the horrible torrent of this world, the torrent of thorns that is whirling you into the abyss of eternal perdition. [...] This torrent is the world, which resembles an impetuous torrent, full of garbage and evil odors, making a lot of noise but flowing swiftly passed, dragging the majority of men into the pit of perdition.”
-Saint John Eudes

“One day, I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end of the road without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And there numbers were so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness, and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings.”
-Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska, #153

“Fear and honor, praise and bless, thank and adore the Lord God Almighty, in Trinity and Unity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things. Do not put off any longer confessing all your sins, for death will soon come. Give and it will be given you; forgive and you will be forgiven. . . Blessed are they who die repentant, for they shall go to the Kingdom of Heaven! But woe to those who are not converted, for these children of the Devil will go with their father into everlasting fire. Be watchful, therefore. Shun evil, and persevere in well-doing until the end.”
-Saint Francis of Assisi

“Meditate on the horrors of Hell, which will last for eternity because of one easily-committed mortal sin. Try hard to be among the few who are chosen. Think of the eternal flames of Hell, and how few there are that are saved.”
-Saint Benedict Joseph Labre

“Yes, indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved.”
-Saint Benedict Joseph Labre

“The path to Heaven is narrow, rough and full of wearisome and trying ascents, nor can it be trodden without great toil; and therefore wrong is their way, gross their error, and assured their ruin who, after the testimony of so many thousands of saints, will not learn where to settle their footing.”
-Saint Robert Southwell

“Oh how much are the worldlings deceived that rejoice in the time of weeping, and make their place of imprisonment a palace of pleasure; that consider the examples of the saints as follies, and their end as dishonorable; that think to go to Heaven by the wide way that leadeth only to perdition!”
-Saint Robert Southwell

“Live with the few if you want to reign with the few.”
-Saint John Climacus

“The number of the damned is incalculable.”
-Saint Veronica Giuliani

“I see around me a multitude of those who, blindly persevering in error, despise the true God; but I am a Christian nevertheless, and I follow the instruction of the Apostles. If this deserves chastisement, reward it; for I am determined to suffer every torture rather then become the slave of the devil. Others may do as they please since they are [...] reckless of the future life, which is to be obtained only by sufferings. Scripture tells us that “narrow is the way that leads to life” [...] because it is one of affliction and of persecutions suffered for the sake of justice; but it is wide enough for those who walk upon it, because their faith and the hope of an eternal reward make it so for them. [...] On the contrary, the road of vice is in reality narrow, and it leads to an eternal precipice.”
-Saint Leo of Patara

“Brethren, the just man shall scarcely be saved. What, then, will become of the sinner?”
-Saint Arsenius

“Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh. [...] With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned.”
-Saint Regimius or Rheims

“How many among these uncivilized peoples do not yet know God, and are sunk in the darkest idolatry, superstition and ignorance! [...] Poor souls! These are they in whom Christ saw, in all the horror of His imminent Passion, the uselessness of His agony for so many souls!”
-Saint Francis Xavier Cabrini

“O Jesus! [...] Remember the sadness that Thou didst experience when, contemplating in the light of Thy divinity the predestination of those who would be saved by the merits of Thy sacred passion, thou didst see at the same time the great multitude of reprobates who would be damned for their sins, and Thou didst complain bitterly of those hopeless, lost, and unfortunate sinners.”
-Saint Bridget of Sweden

“The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few - not as many as ten - went strait to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and those cast into Hell were as numerous as snowflakes in mid-winter.”
-Blessed Anna Maria Taigi

“They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary path, shall be abandoned.”
-Blessed Angela of Foligno

“One day, Saint Macarius found a skull and asked it whose head it had been. ‘A pagan’s!’ it replied. ‘And where is your soul?’ he asked. ‘In Hell!’ came the reply. Macarius then asked the skull if its place was very deep in Hell. ‘As far down as the earth is lower than Heaven!’ ‘And are there any other souls lodged even lower?’ ‘Yes! The souls of the Jews!’ ‘And even lower than the Jews?’ ‘Yes! The souls of bad Christians who were redeemed with the blood of Christ and held there privilege so cheaply!’”
-Blessed James of Voragine

“I fear that Last Day, that day of tribulation and anguish, of calamity and misery, of mist and darkness, that Day on which, if the just have reason to fear, how much more should I: an impious, wretched, and ungrateful sinner!”
-Blessed Sebastian Valfre

“I was watching souls going down into the abyss as thick and fast as snowflakes falling in the winter mist.”
-Blessed Benedict Joseph Labre

“Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God’s will only condemns them to more severe punishment.”
-Blessed John of Avila

“So many people are going to die, and almost all of them are going to Hell! So many people falling into hell!”
–Blessed Jacinta of Fatima

“Taking into account the behavior of mankind, only a small part of the human race will be saved.”
-Lucy of Fatima

Posted by Larry on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 8:33 PM (EDT):

“There is absolutely nothing in the Tradition to say that hope has to be limited to oneself and plenty to suggest that hope is to involve the hope of the gospel for the whole world.” But then I didn’t say that, did I Mark? I said that the SUPERNATURAL THEOLOGICAL VIRTUE OF HOPE that comes with sanctifying grace involves the confidence that God wants all people to be saved. It does NOT involve hoping that all people WANT to be saved, and that all people will in the end PERMIT Him to save them—which is a merely natural sentiment—although it’s something we ceaselessly pray for, asking God to give everyone the grace to want salvation and to respond to His efforts. You have a marvelous talent for misrepresenting the opponent’s argument, twisting his words so that you have him saying things he never said and thinking things he never thought—then you pound him down in mock righteousness and indignation, all the while hoping no one notices that you’ve managed to avoid a real debate amidst all the smoke. The fact is that the Lord Himself has stated in public revelation that there are a lot of people in hell. Many of his saints have privately stated the same thing—beyond that, we cannot speculate as to numbers or percentages—but we are free to believe whatever we want, and you are wrong and unjust to accuse people who are less optimistic than you of what amounts to the sin of incredulity in that they have allegedly denied or ridiculed the supernatural virtue of hope. They have done no such thing, and any competent believer can easily see that. None of us is aware of any public or purported private revelation asserting that hell is either sparsely populated or empty—and there is no warrant for believing that. I am not certain of anything regarding the numbers of people in or bound for hell—but I AM certain that the people who’ve criticized you have done nothing wrong to deserve your humiliating characterizations, accusations and denunciations. You owe them an apology for your snarky posturing as somehow being more Catholic than them. But I’m not holding my breath. You’ll never give one.

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 8:04 PM (EDT):

Jerry: Your bluster becomes less convincing when you shout “ad hominem” when, in fact, there was no ad hominem in my remarks to you. I did not say, “You are ugly, so atheism is false” or “You are a stupidhead, so you have no valid argument”. I said there are only two good arguments for atheism in the whole history of human thought and “Catholic theology is woo hee” is not one of them. So put up or shut up. (And, by the way, that’s not ad hominem either. Debaters who address you as an adult and call your empty bluster “empty bluster” are not engaging in ad hominem. They are simply refusing to treat you as a child and spare your precious feelings.” So give your brilliant arguments. They can only be variations on one or both of these themes:

1. Life sucks and evil happens so there’s no God.
2. Everything seems to work fine without God, so there’s not God.

Everything else, and I mean *everything* else is a fallacy or is you padding the argument with junk or elaborations of 1 and 2. One such fallacy is “Failure to cringe before my mighty intellect is ad hominem! You are mean!”

Cry me a river and then give your variations on 1 and 2. Cuz that’s all you’ve got.

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 7:56 PM (EDT):

Larry: Not crap at all. You wrote, “[T]he hope that OTHER PEOPLE will freely CHOOSE to receive and cooperate with God’s grace, thus allowing God to save them, is NOT the theological virtue”

In short, you tried to truncate the theological virtue to simply and solely mean hope for one’s own salvation. This is false and the example off parents having faith and hope on behalf their child is sufficient to demonstrate this. There is absolutely nothing in the Tradition to say that hope has to be limited to oneself and plenty to suggest that hope is to involve the hope of the gospel for the whole world. That is why the Church, in fact, prays in hope that whole world be saved. That’s not *certitude* of salvation for the world (which is the sin of presumption). But it is real hope. We do not believe in Me ‘n Jesus salvation.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 7:51 PM (EDT):

@Jerry: Personally, I won’t bother attacking you. Likewise, quoting Scripture or the RC Catechism is a non productive endeavor. To what End? It’s not the job of any believer to argue someone into the Kingdom. Even Jesus didn’t waste time arguing with His own people who weren’t interested. He preached His gospel and moved on.
.
[I’ve done more to help people, including the unborn, the unwanted, the sick, etc., than you have ever done.”]
.
Congratulations. I applaud you, but you sound quite judgmental. You very possibly may have already done far more than Mark Shea, Larry or Anonymous. You may also have more time, talent and resources than do other people. Nevertheless, one does not need to believe in Christ to perform “good” or charitable works. So what’s your point?
.
From a Christian standpoint, God doesn’t keep a tally sheet on the # of good works we do since that would mean His gift of love and grace is based only upon our performance. Things we do are only in gratitude, not for personal merit.

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 7:29 PM (EDT):

Thank you for your comments and for taking time out of your busy schedule to dialog with me.

I aims to please.

1. Why pray for all if its not possible? Well first of all we DO in fact know that it isn’t possible.

No. We don’t. We don’t know anything. You *imagine* you know something. But you don’t for the very excellent reason that you are not God.

Only the elect will be saved.

And their names and addresses are….?

So why not just pray for the elect? Its a very interesting point you raise. I think that it is in part in the spirit that you say it is… In the spirit of hope.

But we *cannot* hope for what we know is in fact absolutely impossible. I don’t pray in the hope that the Japanese will not bomb Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. I *know* that the answer to such a pray is without any possibility of change, “No.” If I really *know* for certain that it is a total waste of time to pray for the salvation of the world (as we do in the liturgy) then neither I nor any other person can—or should—pray that prayer since we would be praying in *direct contradiction to God’s revealed will*. We might as well pray that he make black white or declare abortion a sacrament. It *can’t* be done. But if you are right (which you aren’t, but let’s grant for the sake of argument), then the Church in the most holy liturgy, has prayed for something in *direct contradiction to the will of God* because she prays for the salvation of the world when God has (allegedly) revealed that he absolutely refuses to grant that prayer.

I think that it is also so that no man will have excuse. When we pray God pours out His grace…. But that doesn’t mean that all men accept it.

Of course it’s not a certainty that all will accept his grace. As I say, presumption is a sin against hope just as despair is. As to the notion that he has us pray for something despite the absolute certitude he will not answer that prayer, and all in order to be able to tell sinners “Toldja so!” I’m sorry but this seems to be a massively Calvinist take on the universal love of God for sinners.

However, Jimmy and Pope Benedict didn’t say “gee wouldn’t it be wonderful if everyone went to heaven” he gave philosophical and theological arguments why THAT IS actually the case.

Absolutely false. What Benedict says is that we may “suppose” that bulk of middlin’ humanity, open to grace but not perfectly so, may ultimately experience salvation via purgatory. It’s a reasonable speculation rooted in the theological virtue of hope. Your reaction to that perfectly illustrates my point that, to those clinging to Calvinist suppositions of despair (and your suppositions about the Elect are redolent of all that) hope is taken for universalism, while to universalist analyses, hope is take for despair. All Benedict (and Jimmy) do is note that it is reasonable to hope for the bulk of mankind, not that they know anything about the End.

That is where he stepped outside of “living in the theological virtue of hope” and stepped into the world of Tradition Scripture and Dogma. If you say “gee wouldn’t it be great” then we all pray along with you. When you say “here is why everyone is actually going to heaven” we don’t follow you because you have now left the teaching of Tradition and scripture.

The said *nothing* of the kind. *You* heard that because your Calvinist hermaneutic of despair, which imagines that it know the elect to be few and imagines that it knows the fate of the bulk of mankind, has taught you to regard expressions of hope as though they are definitive universalist pronouncements. And so you put words in both Jimmy’s and Benedict’s mouths. They said *nothing like* what you attribute to them, Kenneth.

Quote and scripture mining- if every single scripture and ECF raised gets labeled as “quote mining” then how do you reference such things at all? My point is that THERE ARE NO (zero) ECF that weren’t heretical universalists a la Origen that taught only a few monstrous men will go to hell and the grand majority on the way to purgatory.

Actually, if memory serves, Origen said that nobody, not even Satan, was going to hell because God’s victory would be so overwhelming. The Church rejected this, not because it knows that lots of people are going to hell, but because *it doesn’t know*. The Fathers were inclined to assume that most people would wind up in hell but since there cannot, by the nature of the gospel, be a claim that *everybody* will wind up in hell (or what’s the point?) they remained free to hold that speculation. But (speaking of dogma) there has *never* been a dogmatic statement to the effect that most of the human race is surely damned while there *has* been persistent liturgical habit of praying for the salvation of all. So the Church remains—and will remain to the end—agnostic about the percentages of damned and saved and Catholics can legitimately speculate on the matter as Benedict has done.

My contention is that even if you wanted to supply a quote that said something like that you wouldn’t be able to find one. This amazingly doesn’t bother you in the slightest. I don’t get it.

I think the liturgical prayers of Holy Mother Church for the salvation of all men are more than sufficient to provide a basis for the theological virtue of hope for the salvation of all. The teaching is Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. Benedict is well within the Tradition here. You should try doing as Jimmy says and contemplating his words instead of reflexively rejecting them. You are under absolutely no compulsion to profess universalism (I, in fact, reject universalism as the sin of presumption). But you are bound to stop accusing Benedict and Jimmy of universalism when, in fact, all they are doing is articulating the theological virtue of hope.

The reason why the Jewish covenant is relevant is because certain theologians “living in hope” suggest all Jews have their own deal with God.

Irrelevant. Neither Jimmy or Benedict are saying this. Stick to what was written here.

If you want to live in hope I’m right there with ya brother.

Good. Then do not reflexively reject as “foolish” what the Church prays for in the liturgy: the salvation of all.

If you want to make arguments as to why basically everyone is on their way to heaven I can not follow.

Since neither Benedict, Jimmy, nor I have said any such thing, you may put your fears to rest. :)

Have a good Sunday, friend!

Posted by Larry on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 7:26 PM (EDT):

“Great. Then we had better stop baptizing infants since that is exactly the hope in which they are baptized as the faith and hope of the parents supplies what the child cannot.” Cut the crap, Mark. If the baptized infant dies before attainment of reason, he/she is saved. If after, then he or she is responsible for cooperating with God’s grace. Don’t pretend you don’t know that—and quit playing fast and loose with the facts in your usual misstatement of the arguments of other people. “As is expected, from people like Mark to Larry to Anyonymous to whomever else, all I got were ad-hominem attacks.” And all we get from you, Jerry, is a whole lotta nothin’.

Posted by Kenneth on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 7:26 PM (EDT):

I think its safe to say that Jerry has identified him self as a troll. He just wants an argument. I would encourage everyone not to feed the troll and to pick your discussion partners wisely

Posted by Jerry on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 7:19 PM (EDT):

As is expected, from people like Mark to Larry to Anyonymous to whomever else, all I got were ad-hominem attacks.

To be honest, I don’t care what any of you belieive regarding your gods and things like heavenly rewards or hellish punishments. None of that is true. I’m just curious as to how you all rationalize it while claiming to be “good people.”

Why am I here? Because I’m pro-life. I’m fanatically, zealously pro-life. I’m pro-life because I’m Atheist and I know that all rational understanding is based upon materialistic fact along with logic and reason. I’ve been booted out of Atheist groups for my pro-life beliefs. They wanted to be “PC,” and thought that to be pro-life means to be religious. For some distorted reason, based upon their functionally unreasonable beliefs regarding the facts of human life which they also base upon “faith” and “belief” rather than fact, they’ve excommunicated me. The same with most gay groups I’ve belonged to. They want to cozy up to PC groups. When I present the situtation where sexual orientation can be biologically determined and women want to abort their prenatal offspring because their gay and that should be allowed, they short-circuit. They want to be freinds with NARAL. Because they can’t answer, they excommunicate me. They say I’m a “religious troll.” The pro-abortion Atheists say the same thing.

I’m gay. I’m Atheist. I’m liberal. I’m a Democrat. Horror of horrors! But I support and defend, based upon materialistic fact, logic, reason and rational thought, the right to life of all human beings from conception to natural death. What I can’t understand is how your supposed “pro-lifers” don’t want people like me aroudn. You want people like me to believe in your non-existent gods. If you want to believe in them, I support your right to do so. I’m just asking you questions about it and you resort to personal attacks. You, especially, Mark. If you think I’m going to your hell, so be it. I know that when you die, you’re done and gone. You won’t be seeing Jesus or Mary or anything else. You’re dead. It’s over. Does it bespeak of your god to attack me ad-hominem? What does that say about your god? Let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that you’re right and I’ll be going to your hell. I’ve done more to help people, including the unborn, the unwanted, the sick, etc., than you have ever done. Did you have your gas shut off because of it? I’m tooting my horn here, Mark. Toot yours. Don’t promote your phoney “humility.” What have you really done and sacrifired, Mark, for others? Really, what have you?

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 6:50 PM (EDT):

On the other hand, the hope that OTHER PEOPLE will freely CHOOSE to receive and cooperate with God’s grace, thus allowing God to save them, is NOT the theological virtue

Great. Then we had better stop baptizing infants since that is exactly the hope in which they are baptized as the faith and hope of the parents supplies what the child cannot.

The theological virtue of hope is not limited to the Protestant Me n’ Jesus notion of a salvation that does not involve others. It is, by its nature, corporate and communal and involves the whole human race, which is why the Church pray in hope for the whole human race. The Calvinized view of salvation that strives with might and main to hope that the fewest number of people possible will be saved, that reacts in outrage and terror at the possibility that it might not be a few, and that strives to limit hope to oneself and to declare “foolish” the prayer of the liturgy that all will be saved is simply foreign to the gospel, just as the easy presumption of universalism is foreign to the gospel. We are saved in hope, not in presumption or despair. And the hope is, indeed, that Jesus is the savior of all mankind. So the Church prays in hope, not with its fingers crossed behind its back knowing that it’s wasting its time, nor in the certainty that such prayers will be answered universally, for the salvation of the world.

Posted by Larry on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 6:21 PM (EDT):

Something needs to be clarified here. The following is the CCC definition of the theological virtue of hope: “1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. ‘Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.’ ‘The Holy Spirit… he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” The theological virtue of hope involves my confidence that God will save me and anyone who earnestly strives for it. On the other hand, the hope that OTHER PEOPLE will freely CHOOSE to receive and cooperate with God’s grace, thus allowing God to save them, is NOT the theological virtue—but only a natural and understandable human sentiment—by no means wrong or inappropriate, but natural nonetheless. The posters are not questioning the theological virtue of hope. They’re talking about something else entirely.

Posted by JIm on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 6:15 PM (EDT):

Akin is absolutely clueless!

Posted by Yasha Renner on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 4:06 PM (EDT):

There is a huge difference between excusable ignorance and willful disbelief. That said, there is something very wrong if a practicing Catholic truly is unaware that either (i) sex outside of marriage is sinful or (ii) contraception is sinful. But, then again, Nancy Pelosi thinks there’s nothing wrong with abortion either.

“How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!” - Matthew 7:14.

Posted by Kenneth on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 4:06 PM (EDT):

Mark,

Thank you for your comments and for taking time out of your busy schedule to dialog with me.

1. Why pray for all if its not possible? Well first of all we DO in fact know that it isn’t possible. Only the elect will be saved. So why not just pray for the elect? Its a very interesting point you raise. I think that it is in part in the spirit that you say it is… In the spirit of hope.
I think that it is also so that no man will have excuse. When we pray God pours out His grace…. But that doesn’t mean that all men accept it.

However, Jimmy and Pope Benedict didn’t say “gee wouldn’t it be wonderful if everyone went to heaven” he gave philosophical and theological arguments why THAT IS actually the case. That is where he stepped outside of “living in the theological virtue of hope” and stepped into the world of Tradition Scripture and Dogma. If you say “gee wouldn’t it be great” then we all pray along with you. When you say “here is why everyone is actually going to heaven” we don’t follow you because you have now left the teaching of Tradition and scripture.

Quote and scripture mining- if every single scripture and ECF raised gets labeled as “quote mining” then how do you reference such things at all? My point is that THERE ARE NO (zero) ECF that weren’t heretical universalists a la Origen that taught only a few monstrous men will go to hell and the grand majority on the way to purgatory. My contention is that even if you wanted to supply a quote that said something like that you wouldn’t be able to find one. This amazingly doesn’t bother you in the slightest. I don’t get it.

The reason why the Jewish covenant is relevant is because certain theologians “living in hope” suggest all Jews have their own deal with God. That trickles down and now you have catholic priests stopping men like Koukl from evangelizing at all. My contention is that its the same with this “everyone to purgatory but Hitler” argument. When its premises are taken to their logical conclusions men will not evangelize because ignorance trumps the gospel. This is not speculative. This is actually happening. If you want to live in hope I’m right there with ya brother. If you want to make arguments as to why basically everyone is on their way to heaven I can not follow. I hope your having a blessed Sunday! No hard feelings like you said earlier and I look forward to reading Jimmys and yours and Scotts and Fr Barrons and Pope Benedicts work in the future
.... As long as it isn’t on pseudo universalism ;)

Posted by Mark Shea on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 2:36 PM (EDT):

I am a recent convert to the Church and your book “By What Authority” was instrumental in setting me on the path across the Tiber. I never would have dreamed that my first conversation with one of the many Catholic authors that I look up to would have gone like this…. it should have gone something like…. “holy cow its actually Mark Shea I love your work!” Im disappointed in the tone our conversation has taken and so will ignore the ad-hoc pseudo insulting comments and just respond from the heart.

I’m sorry to disappoint you, Kenneth. I’m glad you’ve found my work useful and hope you will forgive my defects. I implore you not to to treat us Catholic loudmouths as celebrities. It’s poison.

1. You dont have to quote Calvin to talk like him- I hope our friend James White doesn’t read this discussion. I can see the headlines at AOMIN now “Mark Shea claims that multiple doctors of the church, Popes, and saints talk like Calvin! So much for Tradition!” The problem with your response is that you are saying that the majority of the greatest saints in history have all “presumed to know the end of the story and declared themselves the infallible oracle of that ending”. Of course none of the past saints (nor myself) are claiming any such authority. We are all simply passing down what was given to US via sacred scripture and tradition.

No. What I’m saying is that a particular subculture of modern conservative Catholics is reading the Tradition with intense selectivity in order to marshal a bunch of proof texts for declaring that the virtue of Hope is “foolish”. Calvin did more or less the same thing. Other Catholics read the Tradition and mine it for other proof texts for universalism while also condemning the virtue of Hope (because it refuses to say “We know for certain that all will be saved”). In these comboxes, the vast majority of commenters are far more inclined to follow Calvin and declare Hope to be “foolish”.

Here’s reality: The Church, in her liturgy (recall “lex orandi lex credendi” specifically prays for the salvation of all. It is nonsense to pray for an impossibility. We do not pray for the survival of John F. Kennedy from his assassination attempt, nor that the terrorists fail to destroy the WTC. Why? Because you cannot pray for something you *know* is impossible and cannot happen. But the Church does—and always has—prayed for the salvation of all people. Why? Because we don’t know the end of the story and so we pray in hope. We don’t pray in certitude of either presumption or despair. Why? Because we don’t know the end of the story, so we pray in hope. You call that hope “foolish”.

2. On the teachings of *Pope* Benedict- Mr. Akin has already admitted that Pope Benedict was not holding the entire Church to this teaching excathedra and it was simply his take on the issue. As you well know not everything in an encyclical is binding for the faith. As Jimmy suggested it definitely does deserve our consideration simply by the fact that he brought it up in an encyclical… and I think it also deserves a stiff rejection. Imagine living in the time of Honorious or the crusades or the inquisition. We are not called to be the cheer leaders of *everything* that comes out of the Vatican and we are all well within our rights as Catholics to hold to our guns when we know something funky is going on.

Catholics do not live by the principle “That which is not forbidden is compulsory”. They live by principle “he who listens to you listens to me” and by trusting that when our teachers teach, their words should be considered, not rejected without trial by recent converts who have decided they are smarter than the Pope because they’ve read a thing or two in the Fathers. Jimmy’s approach is by far the wiser one: ruminate, don’t react. Reflect on the fact, for instance, the Honorius speculatin was in a private letter, not a formal teaching document of the Church at the highest level. Think it possible you may not know everything.

3. On Hope- Imagine I said “man I sure hope that one day every catholic can be Pope at the same exact time!” If you called that hope foolish you wouldn’t be condemning the theological virtue of divine hope but rather the idea that was stated more generally. You already know through sacred scripture and tradition that there definitely will NOT be a time where there are billions of Popes because there can ever only be one…. In the same way I can call THE IDEA THAT YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR HOPE IN foolish because we already know through scripture and Tradition that the majority of humanity will in fact throw themselves into hell. I would love for you to actually address the problem of the vast majority of ECFs and theologians taking this stance rather than call them all calvinists.

I’m not arguing with the ECFs at all. I’m arguing with you, who are proof texting the ECFs and Scripture in order to shout down the Holy Father and call the theological virtue of Hope “foolish”. You should stop doing that.

4. Evangelizing and Individuals- I want to stress again that I am not critiquing 4 famous Catholics and calling them out for not evangelizing. I am stating that THIS PARTICULAR IDEA of the great majority of all humanity going to heaven despite their sin and unbaptized state is harmful to evangelization and when brought to fruition can cause individual catholics to in effect become enemies to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am NOT stating that you or Jimmy said that evangelizing is unnecessary but rather that that is what this idea implies. You happen to think that Jews need to be evangelized but Scott Hahn is not so sure! Is his hope foolish? Of course it is. There is absolutely no sense of urgency for us lay catholics to get out and evangelize the world if we agree with Pope Benedict that vast majority of them are fine anyways except for people like maybe Hitler or Stalin or whatever lol

I’m not sure why you keep bringing in the idea that Jews don’t need to be evangelized, nor why you keep talking as though Jimmy is somehow suggesting that evangelization is not necessary when that’s practically all he does. It remains mysterious to me that people would attack three of the most potent evangelists (and now four, with the mention of Scott) as somehow anti-evangelical, and do so by way of saying that hope is “foolish”. When the Church stops praying for the salvation of all men in the liturgy (lex orandi lex credendi), then I think you will have a point. Till then, I see nothing wrong with living in hope (not presumption or despair) for the salvation of all.

I hope I have cleared up what I was saying and that you wont feel like I am attacking your friends and peers or whatever. I simply have a strong distaste for this novel teaching and do not think that it should be promoted by popular level apologists like yourself!

I am a recent convert to the Church and your book “By What Authority” was instrumental in setting me on the path across the Tiber. I never would have dreamed that my first conversation with one of the many Catholic authors that I look up to would have gone like this…. it should have gone something like…. “holy cow its actually Mark Shea I love your work!” Im disappointed in the tone our conversation has taken and so will ignore the ad-hoc pseudo insulting comments and just respond from the heart.

1. You dont have to quote Calvin to talk like him- I hope our friend James White doesn’t read this discussion. I can see the headlines at AOMIN now “Mark Shea claims that multiple doctors of the church, Popes, and saints talk like Calvin! So much for Tradition!” The problem with your response is that you are saying that the majority of the greatest saints in history have all “presumed to know the end of the story and declared themselves the infallible oracle of that ending”. Of course none of the past saints (nor myself) are claiming any such authority. We are all simply passing down what was given to US via sacred scripture and tradition.

2. On the teachings of *Pope* Benedict- Mr. Akin has already admitted that Pope Benedict was not holding the entire Church to this teaching excathedra and it was simply his take on the issue. As you well know not everything in an encyclical is binding for the faith. As Jimmy suggested it definitely does deserve our consideration simply by the fact that he brought it up in an encyclical… and I think it also deserves a stiff rejection. Imagine living in the time of Honorious or the crusades or the inquisition. We are not called to be the cheer leaders of *everything* that comes out of the Vatican and we are all well within our rights as Catholics to hold to our guns when we know something funky is going on.

3. On Hope- Imagine I said “man I sure hope that one day every catholic can be Pope at the same exact time!” If you called that hope foolish you wouldn’t be condemning the theological virtue of divine hope but rather the idea that was stated more generally. You already know through sacred scripture and tradition that there definitely will NOT be a time where there are billions of Popes because there can ever only be one…. In the same way I can call THE IDEA THAT YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR HOPE IN foolish because we already know through scripture and Tradition that the majority of humanity will in fact throw themselves into hell. I would love for you to actually address the problem of the vast majority of ECFs and theologians taking this stance rather than call them all calvinists.

4. Evangelizing and Individuals- I want to stress again that I am not critiquing 4 famous Catholics and calling them out for not evangelizing. I am stating that THIS PARTICULAR IDEA of the great majority of all humanity going to heaven despite their sin and unbaptized state is harmful to evangelization and when brought to fruition can cause individual catholics to in effect become enemies to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am NOT stating that you or Jimmy said that evangelizing is unnecessary but rather that that is what this idea implies. You happen to think that Jews need to be evangelized but Scott Hahn is not so sure! Is his hope foolish? Of course it is. There is absolutely no sense of urgency for us lay catholics to get out and evangelize the world if we agree with Pope Benedict that vast majority of them are fine anyways except for people like maybe Hitler or Stalin or whatever lol

I hope I have cleared up what I was saying and that you wont feel like I am attacking your friends and peers or whatever. I simply have a strong distaste for this novel teaching and do not think that it should be promoted by popular level apologists like yourself!

In the peace of Christ

-Kenneth

Posted by Annie on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 1:07 PM (EDT):

Naomi, not sure what you meant by your comment. Catholics, and anyone else who seeks forgiveness, are called to be truly sorry for forgiveness. Not sure what you mean by asking permission.

Posted by Naomi on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 1:00 PM (EDT):

You Catholics can wriggle yourselves out of ANYTHING. It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!

Posted by one annoymous on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 12:51 PM (EDT):

So many Scriptures like this one, but here is what Christ says that answers so many questions…
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Posted by Annie on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 12:36 PM (EDT):

Chris please do not give false information. There is absolutely nothing that states that you won’t go to hell by reciting an Our Father daily. None of us can be sure of true contrition which is why the sacrament of confession was instituted by Christ at Pentecost.

Posted by chris awo on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 11:34 AM (EDT):

And finally anybody who sincerely says at least one heartfelt Lord’s Prayer every day can not go to hell. (even Jerry and Bill S)

Our Father,
Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name,
............
And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us,
.............
Deliver us from the Evil One.
(cf Matthew 6 9-13)

Posted by chris awo on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 11:21 AM (EDT):

And yet another recipe for going to heaven:

O God, you are my God,
and I long for you.
My whole being desires you..
......
Your constant love for me (O, Lord) is better than life itself,
and so I will praise you.
.......
As I lie in bed, I remember you;
all night long I think about you.
(cf Psalm 63)

Posted by johnnysc on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 10:51 AM (EDT):

Jesus called a sin a sin. From John 8:11…..

And Jesus said to her, I will not condemn thee either (compassion). Go, and do not sin again henceforward (conversion).

It seems many say that Jesus loves everyone and forget about that second part ignoring the fact that Jesus calling sin a sin is part of that love for us. I mean..there is a reason He is telling us do not sin again, no? We don’t hear too much about sin or the devil these days from our teachers. I know the CCC is the Church’s guide so to speak but I think the Church should bring back the Baltimore Catechism and maybe use it as something like a prerequisite or something. One example…

Q. 268. Was any one ever preserved from original sin?

A. The Blessed Virgin Mary, through the merits of her Divine Son, was preserved free from the guilt of original sin, and this privilege is called her Immaculate Conception.

Q. 269. Why was the Blessed Virgin preserved from original sin?

A. The Blessed Virgin was preserved from original sin because it would not be consistent with the dignity of the Son of God to have His Mother, even for an instant, in the power of the devil and an enemy of God.

Pretty simple and direct. In two short statements you get fact and reason. Whenever you hear it explained today it seems to be always explained that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and the New Eve which is definitely true of course and are very useful for expanded discussion but once you bring the devil into the equation it becomes completely clear, no?

I know mentioning the BC might be looked at as an indirect attack on Vatican II but it’s not. More of the idea of keeping it simple. Anyway here is the BC section on sin.

http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson6.htm

Posted by one annoymous on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 6:37 AM (EDT):

Jerry, Until you have sincerely tried to “find” God, to seek him as I have challenged you (and you do not indicate that you have), then you have no argument. You are simply a reflection of others ideas and philosophies, a product of your (imposed or self imposed) environment, you are not your own thought.

Posted by jacobum on Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 12:32 AM (EDT):

To our atheist friend, Jerry:

“.....CONSIDER WHAT ATHEIST BELIEVE…”

• “THEY BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING CAME OUT OF NOTHING,
• THAT REASON CAME FROM IRRATIONALITY,
• THAT A COMPLEX UNIVERSE AND NATURAL ORDER CAME OUT OF RANDOMNESS AND CHAOS,
• THAT CONSCIOUSNESS CAME FROM NON-CONSCIOUSNESS
• AND THAT LIFE EMERGED FROM NON-LIFE.”

“....THAT ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHING IS ABSURD: IT PRESUPPOSES A CREATOR.”

“ATHEIST BELIEVE THAT A “MULTIVERSE (FOR WHICH THERE IS NO EXPERIMENTAL OR OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE) CONTAINING AN INCONCEIVABLY LARGE NUMBER OF UNIVERSES SPONTANEOUSLY CREATED ITSELF”

YET, CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS INSISTED..“OUR BELIEF IS NOT A BELIEF”

“NONSENSE. ATHEISM REQUIRES A BELIEF IN THE UNBELIEVABLE.”

“CHRISTIANS BELIEVE CHRIST COULD RAISE PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD BECAUSE HE IS GOD. THAT IS FAITH. ATHEISTS BELIEVE LIFE CAME OUT OF NON-LIFE. THAT, TOO , IS FAITH. THEY BELIEVE IN WHAT THEIR GOD, SCIENCE, CANNOT DEMONSTRATE, REPLICATE OR PROVE. THEY BELIEVE IN MIRACLES BUT CANNOT IDENTIFY, PRODUCE, OR DESCRIBE THE MIRACLE WORKER.”

“ATHEISM IS THE ABSURD WRAPPED IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE INANE PROMULGATED BY SOULESS ELITES MASQUERADING AS SNOBS”.

“ATHEIST HAVE NO INVISIBLE MEANS OF SUPPORT”

Take Care, Jerry.
PS: Still waiting to be shocked as previously promised.

Posted by Larry on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 11:21 PM (EDT):

Jerry, you’re a disappointment. You threatened to unleash devastating arguments against us, but all you’ve given is more trash-talking and taunting. Big deal.

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 10:42 PM (EDT):

1. Calvinist attitude of despair? Did anyone quote John Calvin?

You don’t need to quote Calvin to talk like him. You merely have to presume you know the end of the story and to declare yourself the infallible oracle of that ending. Telling the Pope he has no idea what he is talking about also helps the Calvin impression.

You can continue to say that Cardinal Ratzinger and Jimmy also “stand in Tradition” on this topic but so far it is just an assertion with no evidence at all to support it.

Um, it’s *Pope Benedict*. And it’s *Pope* Benedict teaching the Church in his office as Pope in an encyclical of Holy Church, not Cardinal Ratzinger chatting over a beer. And you and I are just some guys with keyboards spouting off. Since I already pointed out that there is evidence in the Tradition for hope, but not for presumption *or* despair, I think I will stick with *Pope* Benedict and not with some combox dude.

There are 0 Early Church Fathers who support your evidence for such fool harty hope and that should give you pause.

Hope is now “foolhardy”. Wow. And here I thought it was one of the theological virtues.

2. On evangelization- Many (and I mean many) Catholics have become in effect an enemy to the gospel by embracing this sort of foolish “hope” and allowing it to effect the way that they evangelize.

And again, some guy with a keyboard declares one of the theological virtue to be foolish while lecturing three of the most powerful evangelical voices in the world—Benedict, Jimmy, and Fr. Barron—on their failure to evangelize? And I should take that seriously why? So, since Hope is now foolish, what “good news” do you have to offer? And if *those* guys are not measuring up to the rigorous demands for evangelization among the world-class evangelists who all congregate in this combox when they are not out evangelizing untold millions, then who can? I mean, clearly the critics of Jimmy, Fr. Barron and Benedict do, obviously, have a massive track record of success as evangelist, right? And they could all teach those three how to *really* evangelize, right? And they all have untold thousands of people they have reached with the gospel, right? Because, you know, it would be silly if people who never evangelize themselves and can point to no track record of actual involvement in evangelization were to complain that people who have give their lives to evangelization were not measuring up to the rigorous standards of the do nothing critic, wouldn’t it?

I have literally seen a priest tell Greg Koukl (protestant apologist) to stop evangelizing a Jew because he “had his own covenant with God and his own way to heaven”. At that moment the priest was an enemy to the gospel.

And that would be totally relevant if Jimmy had said anything like this. But since Jimmy literally spends all day every day evangelizing everybody he comes in contact with, this is, as I say, massively out of contact with reality.

This attitude PERMEATES many of our diocese. The simple fact of history is that post V2 many theologians and priests took ambiguous language from the council and molded it to fit their whims without any thought to Sacred Tradition. You and Jimmy should not promote their errors.

Where? Where did Jimmy or I say that evangelization of anybody is unnecessary? You should stop listening to imaginary voices in your head and pay attention to what Jimmy and I actually say. I think Jews should be evangelized like anybody else.

3. On individuals- I think that Fr Barron and Jimmy and your self are wonderful for the Church.

Thank you.

We need people like you. I love Pope benedict and thought he was a great pope. That doesn’t mean that I somehow OWE you and so should let things slide whenever you promote nonsense.

I don’t think you owe *me* anything. I do think you owe somebody like Jimmy and Fr. Barron and Benedict the benefit of the doubt and not the absurd reaction you have offered here which effectively declares them heretics and fools for living the theological virtue of hope and which even more absurdly suggests that these men who have given their *lives* to evangelization somehow don’t care about evangelization. It’s nonsense on the face of it.

You 4 men can be great evangelists teachers and apologists and still promote an idea that is overall harmful to the Church every once in a while. We are all suggesting that is exactly what you are doing on this topic.

And I’m suggesting that if you think the theological virtue of hope is foolish, you better go back and re-do your math, because you are doing exactly what I warned that devotees of despair do: mistaking hope for presumption, just as presumptuous people mistake hope for despair. When you start calling the virtue of hope foolish, it is you, not the Church and certainly not Pope Benedict that is likely to be the one in error.

No hard feelings and thanks for your kind words, but I think you really need to do a rethink on this. Benedict, Jimmy, and Fr. Barron have done nothing wrong here.

Posted by Fr Robert Grabner on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 10:07 PM (EDT):

Thanks for your article. I had the mindset you espouse here until I read Ralph Martin’s October 2012 book, “Will Many Be Saved?”

One of the points Martin makes is that the pagans, who according to your treatment of the Catechism’s #1859 would be exempted from mortal sin because they lack this condition, are not categorically without the requisite knowledge for culpability. St. Paul in the first chapter of his Letter to the Romans emphatically states this in verse 20, “...they are without excuse.” The broader context is vv. 18-25 and 32. Perhaps the reason the pagans, although without explicit religious training, are “without excuse” is that, since we are made in the image of God and therefore have that law within us we didn’t put there (cf. CCC #1776) an original blank slate, the subsequent morally culpable quality of which is determined solely on conditioning, can’t be claimed.

If the pagans are without excuse and these days are not those “in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness and the knowledge of the true God and his Son was severely limited” a fortiori are people today without excuse.

I think we have to be careful to not fall into the error which tries to play off one verse of Scripture against another, as though the “optimistic” and “pessimistic” verses are irreconcilable. I don’t mean to be demeaning in pointing out that, since all of Sacred Scripture is God’s inspired, inerrant word, it has a unicity of truth.

Martin does not articulate a claim that most people are damned; what he does is demonstrate the intellectual bankruptcy of the position espoused by many today—including Karl Rahner and Hans Ur von Balthasar of happy memory—that all or virtually all are saved.

Jimmy, I hope Martin is wrong and that all or virtually all are saved, but I have yet to hear a reasoned refutation of his heavily researched and tightly argued work. I have been searching for one for months with no success. Could you perhaps write one?

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:36 PM (EDT):

Jerry:

Cutting through all your bluster and the awesome and devastating revelations you promise if people will only argue with you in private (followed no doubt by your declaration of overwhelming victory for yourself and shame and humiliation for all who dare to question your genius), the reality is that there are only two argument for atheism in all of the history of human thought and everything else is just padding the case (as we discuss here) or else outright fallacy and even demagoguery. This include your profound philosophical categorization of the Catholic faith as “woo hee”. I, for one, have no idea if you are going to hell since I can’t see the future and have no idea what God has in store for you. You might be the next St. Paul for all I know. Conversions do happen, and not least to passionate enemies of the Faith. Never say never. As the old saying goes, “If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.”

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:35 PM (EDT):

You obviously care greatly about what I believe. I am not angry nor do I attempt to make people practice my religion. You apparently have marks on the wall of those whom you have “converted” to Atheism. Not once did I ever bring pro-life anything into the discussion. I am very aware that the pro-life movement exists outside the Church and I think that’s great. I’m not scared at all about your perceived truths. I have invited you “pull the rug” out from under me, but you have declined and I am ok with that. It would be a waste of typing for you. The only thing you have done here is reiterate the condescending and arrogant Atheist stereotype which prevents intelligent conversation from taking place between Atheists and Christians. And I sincerely hope you don’t rub your atheistic self-righteousness into those who are on the receiving end of your good works.

Posted by profling on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:29 PM (EDT):

First of all, the piece is very pharisaical. It implies that the writer is pure and holy and that other people are sinners (mostly sexual sinners). Secondly, it disregards the fact that the same people might, despite sin, be performing virtuous acts in their lives. Most importantly, it forgets that Christ’s grace is greater than any one person’s sins. I think the writer needs to close his legal texts and consult a spiritual writer like Meister Eckhart for a more Christian view of life.

Posted by Jerry on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:14 PM (EDT):

My goodness, what responses I got! I feel so privileged. I wish I could respond in detail to them all, but that would overload the bandwith. I guess I’ve strucked a nerve. But I’ll keep it to a few things.

Anonymous, let me reiterate that my beliefs come from logic, reason and rational thought. None of it comes from some gods to tell me otherwise. If you’re ability to do good comes from whatever god or gods you believe in, again, I find that frightening. Why do I know that 2+2=4? It’s because it does. No god had to tell me otherwise. If you believe that because a god told you, it’s time for us to be concerned. It’s the same reason why I’m pro-life. It’s because fact, reason, logic and rational thought make it obvious. I strive to see to it that human life from conception to natural death is legally protected. No abortions for women. No euthanasia for the “family” members who want to off a relative. I don’t need a god to tell me otherwise. If you do, help us all when your god tells you otherwise.

Annie, I’m not angry. You are, but I’m not. You’re angry because you can’t make everyone to practice your religion. What I was trying to point out, something you missed quite obviously, is that I’m more familiar with your religion than most other Catholics, probably including you. What does that say about you Catholics? You say I’m going to your hell because I can’t believe in your stuff because I can fully refute it to your detriment. I know you’re scared. You’re hoping I’ll state all my reasons why what you believe is false here in the hope that someone will come up with specious arguments to comfort you even though they are specious. To be honest, I don’t care what you believe. I’ll support your right to do so. What I’m opposed to is you trying to use the power of our secular state to make it religious. I’m pro-life for scientific, medical, biological, logical, reasonable, rational reasons that can’t be countered. I’ve converted lots of Atheist and gay/lesbian people who were pro-abortion because they couldn’t refute me. I’ve done more to convert people to the pro-life people than the “god says it’s not right” people. This is America. It’s secular. The majority of people are very uncomfortable about abortion, but they’re equally uncomfortable with people who say that laws should be passed because of some gods. Get with the program, Annie. If you’re pro-life and want us to succeed, keep you god out of it.

As for others who don’t like how I’ve tooted my own horn and have gone on the attack about it, I know I’m better than you. No false humility here. None of you have done what I’ve done for other people, and I didn’t need some god to do it. I did it because it was right. I’m not looking for your accolade. I’m just telling you how it is. I’m better than you and I’m Atheist. That’s a fact. You believers in gods who haven’t done an inch of what I’ve done and think you’re better because you believe in gods live with your moral falsehoods. And another swipe at Mother Theresa: she took money from people who got it through ill-gotten gain. When it was revealed to her, she wouldn’t give the money back. Did her business do some good things for people? Absolutely. But I know people that got involved with her, from physicians who initially gave up money-making practices to girls who entered her order and all left, disillusioned from what they experienced about her and her business. She was no saint. She was a charlatan. And that’s sad, because, as an Atheist, I did a great deal of volunteer work for what she wanted because I thought she was sincere.

Posted by Larry on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 8:21 PM (EDT):

Jerry: You’re allegedly shocking news about having been a catechetical instructor doesn’t shock any of us. In fact the general reaction is: “ho-hum.” And judging from the rest of your post, you are not the expert on the Catholic faith which you think yourself to be—otherwise you would not make those idiotic charges. I’m not surprised at all that you were able to demolish the “faith” of many Catholics with your ranting. You said yourself they knew practically nothing about their creed. The punch line is—you’re about on the same level as them. Go ahead and make your supposedly blockbuster arguments. They won’t scare anybody here.

Posted by Kenneth on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 8:10 PM (EDT):

Jerry,

God exists and your reasons for not believing are lame.

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 7:56 PM (EDT):

Jerry,

The fact that you taught catechism at a Catholic school is not earth shattering information. Twenty years ago when I was in Catholic school, my religion teacher was also non-Catholic.

I’m sorry you are angry about all of this. It’s very apparent in your scathing post that you are very concerned about what Catholics think of you and your good deeds. For someone who instructed the catechism at a, what was it, “high-ranking Catholic school academy,” you should have known the answer to your original question as to whether or not you were going to hell. Perhaps you don’t know half of what you think you know, and you may want to re-visit the catechism for the answer to that question.

With that said, please feel free to post all of your privileged information debunking the existence of God. No need to privately debate. Better yet, why not send an email to Jimmy himself so we can all await his reply through the blog. Nothing you say will pull a rug out from under me, I guarantee it.

Sure I have been charitable and done good deeds for people, but I don’t need to validate myself by both whining and bragging about them on the internet. No one will give you a gold star if that’s what you’re looking for. And FYI, Mother Theresa lived with the poorest of the poor, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she only got to shower once a week.

Posted by one annoymous on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 7:52 PM (EDT):

Thank you Jerry for your response to my post. I would like to answer you if I may. Yes, there have been many people throughout history who have done evil and said it was in the name of God, but of course, it still remains evil (just because someone says they did something “because God told them to” does not mean God really did). And how do we know it is evil? Because as you say we have reason, logic and rational thought (as you do) to “know” that flying airplanes into buildings is not good but very evil. I would ask you, where does that reason, logic and rational thought come from, how did you come to even have awareness of “good” and “evil” and come to a reasonable, logical, rational concept of either one? What are you doing here Jerry, why are you here at all and what have you been told that you have “chosen” to believe and disbelieve? Like I said, we are not slaves, we do not do anything for God because He orders us to (like a slave who takes orders) but we are obedient to God because we Love Him and He Loves us, and yes I use the word “obedient” because He does give us directions in life to help us live well and to avoid the pitfalls of this life that can cause us much pain and suffering. God has proven Himself trustworthy, not to “tell us” to do anything harmful, but to direct us to His perfect Love and Peace.

Oh Jerry, if I could only help you see the beauty of God and His Love… there is no bitterness when we Love God for He never abandons us or forsakes us, not now or ever. It doesn’t matter if you know the Catholic faith inside and out or whatever you know, you need to know God, to cry out to Him and seek Him diligently… and you will find Him if you do this. If you really want to disprove there is a God, then I ask you to diligently seek him, pray, read the new testament (and old if you want but especially the new and over and over) of the Bible and pray and do this for at least six months every day. And again I say PRAY, for you can read and read and know and know but until you PRAY and truly seek God you will not develop a relationship with Him. You will begin to notice God showing you His answers, in various ways, you will see God is real. But if you just want to go on believing there is no God then you certainly have that choice, you don’t even have to try and know, you can go on believing what ever you want.

I wanted to add that we do for others not just because it is right or for our own satisfaction but because we know it is pleasing to God and I might add because we Love the other and we don’t choose who to Love, we Love everyone (and I hope that can go without saying).

Posted by Patrick Miron on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 7:21 PM (EDT):

RE: Jimmy Akins article: “Are most catholics going to hell?”

His consensus opinion seems to be “no.” Despite many acknowledged grave and frequent abuses. So why is the answer “no?”

Jimmy claims it’s because all three essential conditions for an act to actually be a Mortal sin: 1. Grave matter 2. Pre- knowledge that this act is a Mortal sin 3. And a desire to do it anyway.

While what was shared is based on the truth, it is nevertheless only a part of the necessary answer on the status of today’s Catholics.

Several points seem to be needed to be added to this discourse.

1. Everyone has an grave obligation to have a correctly informed conscience

2. Acts like premarital sex OUGHT to be known to be Gravely sinful by everyone not living under a rock. It seems to ME, to stretch mightily Moral Judgment that can and ought to be known by all, that sex before marriage is always gravely sinful.

3. Abortion and all support of it are too “Intrinsic Evils.” “Thou Shall NOT kill” is the Fifth Commandment and certainly no secret. Therefore both abortion and all support of Abortion are Gravely sinful by all; all of the time. There is no room here for claimed ignorance.

4. Contraception is the single issue that is the GREY-area on the conditions for a mortal sin; again In MY opinion. Recent years have seen more Catechesis on this issue, and the Catholic Church mandates pre-Cana courses, where this OUGHT to be covered and taught to all planning on getting married in the Catholic Church. So then the Pastors and Bishops will have to answer to God on this lack of right teaching, wherever it occurs.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings

1713 Man is obliged to follow the moral law, which urges him “to do what is good and avoid what is evil” (cf. GS 16). This law makes itself heard in his conscience.

2256 Citizens are obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order. “We must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29

2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.
The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

I suspect that their will be Catholics in hell; perhaps even many Catholics?

Patrick Miron

Posted by Jerry on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 6:48 PM (EDT):

Annie, believe it or not, I know more about Catholic teaching (and other Christian and relgions’ teachings) than most who profess those beliefs. I’ve studied it and I’ve found so many holes there is no way I can believe in any of it. I could teach a class to Catholics about their religion, even quite a few priests, who are ignorant of what their religion believes. You ready for a real shock? Hold onto your hat. I was hired by a high-ranking Catholic high school academy to teach, for two semesters, Catholic beliefs and practices, even though I don’t believe or practice any of it. Why? Because the school couldn’t find anyone who had the knowledge to do it. I did it, without my own Atheistic critique, because I was on their dime. Imagine, a respectible Catholic high school academy that had to hire an Atheist to teach Catholicism because there wasn’t a single Catholic around who could do it. So, Annie, yes, I’ve been exposed to everything your religion teaches and I’m still not convinced because I could drive sinkholes in your beliefs. I’ve debated with Catholic (and other religious) believers like you and have caused them to realize all they believe is nothing but smoke and mirrors. Some admitted that I intellectually defeated them and gave me kudos for it and need to re-think. Some converted to Atheism. Some were so upset they started to scream: “Stop trying to confuse me!” and ended all discussions. So I heard it all, everything you believe, Annie. I could conduct one of your Christian Initiation for Adults classes better than your priest could. But I still don’t believe. There’s just too much woo-hee in all that stuff. I’ll debate with you privately and make you shake in your shoes. You ready for that? You ready to have the rug pulled out from under you? I don’t believe, even though I know more about Catholicism than you, your priest or most other Catholics and I still don’t believe because it’s impossible to believe, at least for me. I’ve done more good (tooting my own horn again - toot, toot!) than most of you Catholics have done. Still say I’m going to hell? Are you, Annie? I’m a better “Catholic” than you from my study and knowledge and I’ve probably done more for others around me than you have. Did you ever have your gas shut off and had to bath with water boiled on a stove because you gave more to others than yourself? No? Then maybe you should start considering how you’ll always have everything “hot” when you die. So, do you still think I’m going to your hell? I’ll wait, Annie.

Anonymous,now it’s your turn. You use that deficient, age-old, specious argument that how can anyone know what’s right or wrong unless some god tells him/her so. That’s a very frightening concept of the basis of morality, Anonymous - meaning some god has to tell you what’s right or wrong. And you add to it, which is also frightening, that you do “good” not only because it helps others but because it appeases your god. The monstrous murders who flew airliners filled with terrified people into skyscrapers on 9/11 did what they did because they thought their god told them to and it would “help” people. So, your god, made in your image and likeness, tells you to take unwanted cans of creamed-corn to a food shelter. Well, good for you. What do you do when your same god tells you to put poison in it? When people do “good” only because they think some god tells them to, that’s very frightening. Gods can tell their appeasers to do anything. Very frightening, indeed. What do I base my morality and ethics upon? Reason, logic and rational thought. We’re human beings, evolved as the only creatures on this planet who can do that. I gave up everything to help my parents because of that. I’ve given up more to help others. I don’t think Mother Theresa every gave up having a hot shower like I’ve had to, even though she said she did everything she did because of “Jesus.” How about doing it for another human being just because we know it’s right? What if Jesus had told her to smother some suffering person with a pillow? She followed Jesus; would she still be a “saint?” You people who only do what’s “right” because some non-existent god tells you to do so are very scary people. We see, to this day, how scary you people really are. If you only do good because your god tells you to, I don’t want you around me. “Heaven” help us when your god tells you to do otherwise.

Posted by chris awo on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 5:48 PM (EDT):

St. Catherine of Siena till her last breath never stopped confessing her mistakes and short comings. She constantly ask the Lord Jesus to have mercy on her till the very end. She did not praise herself for being holy but rather asked the Lord Jesus to bear with her and make her perfect according to his will.
If Catholics in America - sinners all - follow her example there will be many, many, many of them in heaven.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 5:35 PM (EDT):

@Annie: I am not upset with you. In fact, I support your commitment to become a Catechist. Most people in the pew really are the “lukewarm” due to lukewarm clergy who have no interest in Spiritual growth and Christian development themselves. The Church has done little to dispel the idea salvation is somehow meritoriously obtained. God is certainly not impressed by a quantification of our good works, sacrifices or number of rosaries which are said. He is more interested in the motive residing in our heart.
.
The command of Jesus is to preach the gospel and save those who are lost. The command is for all of us, not simply for ordained Catholic priests. The Good News is the most important news anyone will ever hear. Everything else is secondary. Tradition should support this objective, but often it does not. Too many unwittingly think following Catholic tradition and church rules is “enough.” This approach only repeats that which was found in OT Jewish practices for how to be a “good” Jew. The gospel of Jesus Christ changed all that. The heart of the gospel is not about legalism, it’s about forgiveness.
.
When Jesus was found in the Temple, He told Joseph and Mary “Did you not know I must be about my Father’s business?” Unfortunately, the business of the modern church has become just . . . “business.” Even if Diocesan Bishops and local Pastors have become sidetracked,—we, God’s people, cannot be excused from making Christ the priority in everything we do in life.

Posted by chris awo on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 5:31 PM (EDT):

Yet another recipe for going to heaven:

How excellent are the Lord’s faithful people!
My greatest pleasure is to be with them.
Those who rush to other gods
bring many troubles on themselves.
I will not take part in their sacrifices;
I will not worship their gods.
........
Therefore my heart is glad, and my soul rejoices;
even my body shall rest in hope.
For thou, O Lord, will not abandon my soul in hell,
or let thy servant see decay.
.....
at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore. ( cf Psalm 16)

Posted by Kenneth on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 5:23 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea,

a couple of things I would like to suggest to you.

1. Calvinist attitude of despair? Did anyone quote John Calvin? The only quotes that I saw were from Doctors of the Church, previous popes and saints….. You can continue to say that Cardinal Ratzinger and Jimmy also “stand in Tradition” on this topic but so far it is just an assertion with no evidence at all to support it. There are 0 Early Church Fathers who support your evidence for such fool harty hope and that should give you pause.

2. On evangelization- Many (and I mean many) Catholics have become in effect an enemy to the gospel by embracing this sort of foolish “hope” and allowing it to effect the way that they evangelize. I have literally seen a priest tell Greg Koukl (protestant apologist) to stop evangelizing a Jew because he “had his own covenant with God and his own way to heaven”. At that moment the priest was an enemy to the gospel. This attitude PERMEATES many of our diocese. The simple fact of history is that post V2 many theologians and priests took ambiguous language from the council and molded it to fit their whims without any thought to Sacred Tradition. You and Jimmy should not promote their errors.

3. On individuals- I think that Fr Barron and Jimmy and your self are wonderful for the Church. We need people like you. I love Pope benedict and thought he was a great pope. That doesn’t mean that I somehow OWE you and so should let things slide whenever you promote nonsense. You 4 men can be great evangelists teachers and apologists and still promote an idea that is overall harmful to the Church every once in a while. We are all suggesting that is exactly what you are doing on this topic.

Posted by ANNE on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 4:41 PM (EDT):

People are not evangelizing when they are speculating. They actually invite debate that will not get anyone to Heaven, and may drive some away.
How many Catholics in Heaven is pure speculation (except for those words of Jesus in the Bible as stated in an earlier post). And we all know what ‘assuming’ means.
Using the Bible and the CCC - are the facts you can hang your hat on.
.
“ The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved ... and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. “ – Pope John Paul II. (pg 5)

Posted by Shamrock on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 4:24 PM (EDT):

Sorry! You are correct on every point…as per my remarks. Said in the
90 degree plus heat and near 1000% humidity!! And ac on the conk!
Please disregard…and accept my apologies. I was far too harsh and
this blog has just gotten to me. I should follow Pope Francis’advice
regarding comboxes and remain silent.

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 3:54 PM (EDT):

Claude, no need to get upset about the secret info club. All it is is info that Jimmy researches and emails out. It’s not privileged information that the Vatican is keeping from you. What unrelenting requirement of secrecy are you referring to?

Posted by Claude Javier on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 3:49 PM (EDT):

Jimmy’s “Secret Info” club? I’ve heard everything now!
How many Catholics will go to hell? Not nearly as many who have left the Church because of its unrelenting requirement of Secrecy above all else. I’m hanging in for now, hoping Pope Francis will bring change.

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 3:13 PM (EDT):

Really? Is it always only Catholics thwarting your evangelical efforts?

Who said anything about “only”? Indeed, it’s not even “most”. But it is nonetheless true that there are always Catholics around to attack you when you try to evangelize, as it is happening here with Jimmy and Fr. Barron.

No people of other faiths? or no faith?

Who said that?

Why are you seemingly only Catholics? Does the Devil only tempt only Catholics into styming your efforts?

Who said that?

I must ask why you and Jimmy Akin seemingly have only Catholics to *pick* on here?

What? Jimmy didn’t pick on anybody. Neither did I. I pointed out that the people who are insinuating that Jimmy and Fr. Barron are heretic who are harming the Church’s evangelistic project are radically out of touch with reality. Since when is rebuffing an unjust accusation “picking on” someone?

Surely since you are one of us, you no longer have any
bigotry in your heart for the “one and true” Church?

And here, by the way, is another problem that afflicts many of those who purport to care about “traditional” Catholicism and wring their hands about evangelism: namely, the none-too-subtle contempt for converts which assumes that people like Jimmy and I are not “real” Catholic but instead harbor some residual hostility to the Church somewhere in our half-converted semi-Protestant hearts.

Why is the concern for salvation in this blog seem to be concerned only for Catholics? Are you no longer concerned about your fellow Protestants?

Why on earth would you suppose either Jimmy or I hold either of these views? Do remember that Jimmy works for the largest Catholic evangelistic organization on planet earth and devotes massive amouts of energy to evangelizing everybody in our culture. How you can ignore that and turn one blog post into a retreat from evangelizing the world, all while suggesting that he has some vendetta against the Church in his semi-converted heart is beyond me. There is something extremely weird about complaining that Jimmy is not evangelical enough while also expressing none-too-subtle hostility to the people who respond to the Church’s evangelical outreach by converting.

Posted by Shamrock on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 2:26 PM (EDT):

@Mark Shea…” if you try to evangelize, you can know with certitude that there will always be Catholics behind you trying to bayonet you”!
Really? Is it always only Catholics thwarting your evangelical efforts?
No people of other faiths? or no faith? Why are you seemingly only Catholics? Does the Devil only tempt only Catholics into styming your efforts? I must ask why you and Jimmy Akin seemingly have only Catholics to *pick* on here? Surely since you are one of us, you no longer have any
bigotry in your heart for the “one and true” Church? Why is the concern for salvation in this blog seem to be concerned only for Catholics? Are you no longer concerned about your fellow Protestants? similar

Posted by Shamrock on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 2:12 PM (EDT):

In his daily homily today Pope Francis said ” the riches and the cares of this world choke the Word of God. He continued saying, ” Our faith is based upon 3 things: election, covenant and promise. He further stated
that we must trust the Father by living in the present and not to worry about what will happen in the future. It would seem he is telling us to cast our cares upon the Lord and trust in his love and mercy. If we love
God in the moment, it would seem that there is no reason to fear the future.

Posted by ANNE on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 2:06 PM (EDT):

Unless a vision has been given to us from God (like that of Saint Faustina - diary 741), how many are saved or not saved is pure speculation - except from the words of Our Lord in Holy Scripture.
Since speculation is not fact, it is ignorable.
.
I quickly reviewed Spe Salve, and could not find anything definitive on lots of Souls or few Souls actually in Heaven or Hell. Instead I found it an instruction on “hope”,- what we should do, and that if we do those things, we should have hope to be in Heaven and bring others with us.
(If I missed something definitive on numbers of souls in Hell or Heaven please provide paragraph number.)
.
Jesus - ” Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name’? And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoers.”
Mt 7:21-23.
.
In Mt 7:21-23 Jesus used the word “many”.
In Mt 7:13-14 Jesus used the words “many” & “few”.
I prefer to take the word of Jesus, and leave it at that.
(And ask for Mercy for my Soul and the Souls of others.)

Posted by Shamrock on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 1:34 PM (EDT):

Just one more thought: WHY is it called the GOOD NEWS *if* nearly all, as suggetsted here by the *Catholic* commentators, are hell-bound?????????
Though we are told that Jeus would have come to save just one soul, is it
really good news to *know* of even speculate most people are damned? Do we really know that anyway? Why have faith at all? According to the law of averages given here by most and according to how some interprest the Bible why bother? One has a greater chance apparently at winning the Powerball Lottery…and we know statistically how poor the hope is for that. With all due respect I think Jimmy Akins is asking the wrong question? Why? Because it is a question that a Christian cannot morally ask of another…only himself! How many times did Jesus rebuke the Apostles and others with the comment: “Oh you of little faith”?

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 1:33 PM (EDT):

Something that helps me think of my path is to look at lives of the saints. Saints are the ones God has chosen to let us know they’ve “made it.” When I compare my own life to those of the saints, I am quickly reminded of how much I fall short. Very few of us are worthy of heaven the moment we die. The saints are role models for us and we should strive to be more like them. These were not people who only fulfilled their Sunday obligations. Their entire lives were dedicated to selflessness and doing God’s work.

I didn’t see any specific numbers of the damned being given (which makes sense because no one really knows), but I think many of the church fathers were just echoing what is already been said in Scripture, that many are invited but few are chosen. Be hopeful yes, hope for God’s mercy, but work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your faith a priority and take it upon yourself to learn as much as you can. That should be the most important thing in our lives.

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 1:04 PM (EDT):

Mark Wilson:

My own take is “They may be right, but that’s more than I know.” Partly, I would like to know who they are writing or responding to and why. But at the end of the day, all I really know is that I don’t know and I don’t see the Church telling me to pretend I do. I see the Church saying to have hope, not presumption or despair. So I do.

Posted by Mark Wilson on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 12:56 PM (EDT):

@ Mark Thanks for being the beacon of sound reasoning and hopefullness among those who would wish to convince us of the doctrine of the certinty of doomed humanity. But I am wondering what to make of the many quotes that these individuals pull out? What do you make of the Saints and Doctors who had a viewpoint of the certainty of the number of the damned? I aggree with B16, Fr. Barron and Jimmy with their viewpoints but I am unsure of what to make of the numorous quotes supporting the other view point. What do you make of those passages. You can’t ignore them but am not sure you should embrace them either. What say you?

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 12:37 PM (EDT):

Mark, my thoughts exactly.

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 12:12 PM (EDT):

One final point: It’s kind of odd to me to hear Catholics complaining that people like Jimmy Akin and Fr. Robert Barron are somehow responsible for pouring water on the burning evangelical zeal that burns in the breast of Catholics and that, but for their refusal to embrace Calvinist certitude about the damnation of most people and their choice to live in the hope that Spes Salvi teaches, fervent evangelism would be the norm. This whole assessment seems to me to be so radically out of touch with reality and so stunningly ungrateful to the *massive* amount of evangelical work done by both these men (not to mention the author of Spes Salvi) that I hardly know how to respond. The reality is that these guys are tireless evangelists, models for the rest of us, and we owe them our gratitude for their long years of bearing witness to the faith, not veiled accusations of universalist heresy for taking seriously the teaching of Holy Church in Spes Salvi. If I reached 1/100th of the people these two men (not to mention Pope Benedict) have reached with the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, I’d consider myself a huge success as an evangelist. Far more discouraging of the evangelical project than Jimmy’s choice to live in hope is the prospect that, when you try to evangelize, you can know with certitude that there will always be Catholics behind you to bayonet you. Sheesh!

“What have they done to the Faith of our fathers?”
- crazy zealot in the movie, “Jesus of Nazareth”
quotation may not be exact. Maybe someone can find it.

Posted by ANNE on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 11:51 AM (EDT):

I would also like to state that each Bishop must do everything in his power to stop SCANDAL, SACRILEGE, HERESY, SCHISM, and RELATIVISM within his own Diocese.
If the Bishop does not publically teach, correct, and discipline those publically obstinate in grave sin, he will personally have to answer to Jesus for the loss of Souls at his own judgment.
.
Canon 915 and Canon 1399 are tools provided by the Church for this purpose.
The Apostolic Constitution “SACRAE DISCIPLINAE LEGES” includes: “Finally, the canonical laws by their very nature must be observed.”
.
Every Diocese Bishop in the USA should actively and publically promote the reading of the CCC and Holy Scripture.

Posted by ANNE on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 11:41 AM (EDT):

The Magisterium has given all literate persons the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which Catholics must adhere to in entirety.
We have the responsibility to read it, and pass it on to others.
.
While it is true that knowledge and consent of a Mortal (Grave) sin is required -
CCC: “1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility.
This is the case when a man takes little trouble to find out what is true and good,
or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.
In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”
.
CCC: “1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.”
.
At our death and again at our final judgment, Jesus will judge each of us.
He knows whether our knowledge of sin or ignorance is legitimate or a product of our own laziness.
.
Catholics in the USA know about the existence of the Bible, and many know about the existence of the CCC.
We will be judged on how we use this information provided to us by His Church.
.
In Christ’s own words:
“Enter by the narrow gate;
for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction,
and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the ways is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Mt 7:13-14

Posted by Mark Shea on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 11:40 AM (EDT):

Could not Jesus’ reply “Make every effort to enter in” be a strong word of caution and urgency that indeed few will be saved? There seems to me no insinuation that the person asking the question should NOT consider the fates of others, I just don’t see that there in Jesus’ answer, but I do see “every effort” as a call to be very diligent because the answer is “few”.
There are of course other Scriptures that point clearly to our needing to consider the fates of others, of course, and preaching the Gospel
(evangelize) is why we do most diligently consider the fates of others. We don’t want anyone to go to hell!

Sure. It *could*. But we don’t know that. My point is not that Jesus means “Don’t be concerned about the fates of others”. If that were the case, he would be counseling that we refuse to love our neighbor. Rather, his point is “Don’t stand around judging other people and imagining you know their eternal destiny—or worse, pridefully comparing your saintly self to them. Don’t follow the herd (which does all that stuff), follow me.” What is overlooked here is that the same Jesus also says he will “draw all men to me” and Paul says stuff like God has handed all over to sin so that he may have mercy on all and so forth. People who want to can, as here, construct confident scenarios from selected text of Scripture which have The End all figured out and rough estimate of the percentages of damned and saved (themselves typically among the Saved while Those People Over There are, let’s face it, doomed). The Calvinist impulse is ever with us. It’s technical name is Despair.

Meanwhile, Universalists can do the same thing, pretending they too know the End of the story and that there is nothing to worry about since God is going to save us all. The technical name for this is Presumption.

In reality, we are mortals who do not know the End of the Story, even for ourselves. So all we have is what the Faith recommends: Hope (note that the encyclical Jimmy quotes is Spes Salvi—from St. Paul’s remark “In hope we were saved.” Despair and presumption are both sins against hope. And despair tends to regard hope as the sin of presumption (since it says “We don’t know the End, so let’s hope!”) while presumption tends to regard hope as the sin of despair (since hope refuses to say, “I know for certain that all will be saved.”)

On this particular thread, most of the commentary comes from people inclined toward Calvinist despair, so Jimmy and I get it in the neck for saying “We don’t know the End, so let’s hope.”) But the reality remains, we don’t know the end. So I hope. Mysteriously, some people take my statement of hope as some sort of rejection of the Faith, declaring, “One could literally bury Akin and Shea with patristic quotes on this topic.
I love you guys… But your just way wrong on this one.”

I’m wrong to say that I do not have divine foreknowledge of the End and therefore live in hope and refuse both presumption and despair? Because that, in the end, is all I’m saying.

It seems to me that, in the end, the *real* quarrel here is not with Jimmy or me, but with that passage from Pope Benedict’s encyclical that expresses hope. The subtext of an awful lot of the commentary here is that Pope Benedict went all squishy and universalist there, so we need to go grab a lot of commentary from the Fathers and various other theologians and saint to rebut him and get everybody back on track with the sure and certain knowledge that, you know, most people are most certainly damned (like we know that). In reality, Pope Benedict speaks from within the Tradition, just as the people being cited by the “Hell is packed” crowd do. Only, Pope Benedict is, you know, pope while us people in comboxes are just dudes with keyboards and big mouths.

My general recommendation on such matters is not to waste a lot of time doing the Protestant trick of harvesting proof texts for your Calvinist despair or Universalist presumption, but to try to understand what the Church says about hope, which boils down to “You’re not God and don’t know anything about the End, so keep your eyes on Jesus and not on some imaginary future, obey him, and do the commandments and the beatitudes. He’ll take care of the future.”

Posted by chris awo on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:27 AM (EDT):

correction - Another recipe for going to heaven

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:09 AM (EDT):

Mark I will certainly pray for her and for you as well. Sounds like your dad also needs prayers too. I don’t have the greatest relationship with my dad either.

Posted by chris awo on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:02 AM (EDT):

nother recipe for going to heaven:

Sincerity and truth are what you require;
fill my mind with your wisdom.
Remove my sin, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow
.......
Close your eyes to my sins
and wipe out all my evil.
........
Do not banish me from your presence;
do not take your Holy Spirit away from me.
Give me again the joy that comes from your salvation,
and make me willing to obey you. (cf Psalm 51)

Posted by Mark Taylor on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:01 AM (EDT):

Whoops! I’ll have to remember not to say the word for female dog on here ever again! Sorry, didn’t wish to offend anybody.

Posted by Mark Taylor on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 9:00 AM (EDT):

Okay, I get you. With regards to co-habitation, I did also say that there was no way that I would do it myself. It would be hypocritical of me to do so since I wasn’t happy about so many childhood friends doing so. But it wouldn’t have been such a big deal to me if my parents had let me leave home or at the very least taught me how to drive at an earlier age than they did. It was hard having to live at home even though my brothers and cousins and so many other childhood friends had moved out into the world so when I found out my cousin was living with her boyfriend I found this hard to take. There were two reasons, one, the moral implications as you point out. Two, her parents did no such thing, in fact, in common with most young people of their day, they lived with their parents until their wedding day.
It didn’t help that my father told me off for being selfish about my cousin, saying that I was only worried about what I wanted and not what they wanted. That made the 4th commandment very hard to keep. Then Mum and I went to church where we had a different priest. This one said it was wrong to live together outside marriage so at first I felt vindicated when Mum said she didn’t like him. Her reason was that he preached against abortion, then when I said that Pope John Paul II was opposed to abortion even in cases of rape, Mum just went right off her rocker about the sex abuse scandals. Even going as far as telling me how one victim committed suicide. I remember thinking to myself, “Well, the stupid bitch doesn’t want to do what the Holy Father says, she should be happy for me to disobey herself and the equally stupid cocksucker she choose for her husband”. Look, I’m sorry everyone, I love Dad really, but I don’t think he is a Christian, I think that is the only reason he never goes to Church.
Anyhow, I went on trying to come to terms with the changes in society without success, until one day I met the daughter of two family friends who had lived together before marrying. This was nothing in itself, except for the fact that now this daughter had moved out of home. I remember thinking that if she was to co-habit in the future it wouldn’t upset me. Just as well because now that is what she is doing. Now, I don’t agree with what she and her boyfriend are doing but it would be terribly strange if she didn’t co-habit as that is what her parents did. The issue I had with my cousin is that her parents did no such thing.
Anyhow, I like to think that God used this girl to make me feel like living again, so I don’t want to think of her as going to Hell. You might like to join me in praying for her.

Posted by Alex Richards on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 8:50 AM (EDT):

@ Shamrock

Shamrock,

There is nothing wrong with what you are quoting. But, Protestants, protest against the submission to authority that Christ teaches us. Protestants are ultimately proud: “I will interpret scripture; I can read it, I can know what it means.” Whereas Catholics are to show a humble submission to God’s revealed word as TAUGHT to them by the bride of Christ. Protestant’s cannot arrive at answers about contraception or sterilization from the Bible. Since this is a matter of “interpretation,” one protestant might, another might not, another might believe something altogether different.

As any scripture scholar knows, the bible is the most difficult work of literature on Earth. Did God really want to leave each to his own devices to get it right? Did God really want a question like contraception to remain unclear to all the billions of those who profess belief in Him? No, God gave us the apostolic church so that we can know what we have TO BELIEVE and TO DO to get to heaven. That is the gift.

It is important to remember that before the first Gospels were written, before the first epistles were sent, we were a worshiping church gathered around the living God (the Holy Eucharist).

One religion is the religion of self-assertion; the true religion is the religion of humble submission.

This is worth listening to:
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20120218-Luther-and-Militant-Secularism-the-Crisis-and-the-Remedy.html

God Bless

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 8:18 AM (EDT):

Mark I wasn’t saying you specifically were judging. I’ve heard the same thing from a lot of people, Catholic and non-Catholic. Also, I lived with my husband before I got married. I explained that in my post way above. I had been away from the church for 15 years and decided to come back when we got married. I knew it was wrong, no doubt about it.

Posted by Mark Taylor on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 8:11 AM (EDT):

Annie, I wasn’t judging the church. Also, with regards to what you said about co-habitation, try telling my (Catholic) brothers and cousins that.

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 7:49 AM (EDT):

Mark, I understand what you mean. However, it’s not right to judge an entire 2000 year old institution because of the actions of some.

Also, I understand what you mean about cohabitation, but from a Catholic standpoint, it still isn’t right and could create scandal, which could guide others into thinking what you are doing is ok (even if you aren’t having sex).

Posted by Mark Taylor on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 7:42 AM (EDT):

I would say that one reason a lot of Catholics don’t take Church teaching seriously is that the Church doesn’t seem to follow its own rules. I refer to the sex abuse scandals and things like that.
On a somewhat different note, while there’s no way I would live with my wife before we married, it mightn’t be so bad to do so as long as the man and woman could resist the temptation to have sex. Just my take.

Posted by David WS on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 7:37 AM (EDT):

I was just thinking about this the other day. Most American Catholics Are on the road to Hell; whether they end up there or not I/we don’t know. But if we love them we should say “IT’S THE WRONG ROAD. IT’S THE ROAD TO HELL. TURN BACK! “

Posted by Annie on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 6:32 AM (EDT):

Crowns, why are you upset with me? These are not my teachings, these are the Catholic Church’s teachings. Yes, I am a master catechist but I’m not teaching anyone and never have. It’s not like you “caught me.”

You can’t pick and choose, period. You can’t say well one day it’s sola scriptura, the next it’s the Apostles Creed, the next it’s both. It doesn’t work that way. It’s a package deal. That’s what I was trying to explain earlier. Catholics don’t disregard the decades that went by from the time of Christ’s death to the time the first book of the New Testament was written. That’s where Tradition comes in. You also CANNOT disregard the fact that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church from which ALL other Christian denominations originate (because they wanted to pick and choose). Seems Christ should have consulted you before giving Peter the keys?

Getting back to the original issue at hand, I totally agree with R.C. I think people are inappropriately deriving their own conclusions about what Jimmy is saying.

Posted by mairead on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 5:40 AM (EDT):

So really we should disband the church because telling a person that anything is a sin then makes them aware that it is and could possibly send them to hell.

Posted by Mark Wilson on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 2:05 AM (EDT):

To his disciples’ question “Are many saved?” he does not answer with estimates but with a forceful appeal to the will: “Strive to enter in.”

Jesus says the way to hell is broad and many find it and that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it. And he means it: you don’t get to heaven simply by being born, by being nice, or by oozing into an eternal growth experience. But “few” here does not mean that less than half of mankind will be saved. For God speaks as our Father, not our statistician. Even one child lost is too many, and the rest saved are too few. The good shepherd who left his ninety-nine sheep safe at home to rescue his one lost sheep found even 99 percent salvation too “few”.
- Peter Kreeft

Posted by R.C. on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 12:21 AM (EDT):

I don’t understand where some of you are getting the idea that Jimmy Akin is letting a bunch of folks off the hook, or something, in how he wrote this article.

He states, in brief, that were it not for (a.) the possibility of later repentance of sins for which the person is not currently repentant; and (b.) the question of whether mortal sins were being committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent, the answer to the question would be an obvious yes: Most American “Catholics” are hellbound.

But because they might repent later, we can’t predict whether a person who is a sinner now is hellbound.

And because they might have been taught “Catholicism” instead of Catholicism, and never had the real article preached to them in a clear and believable fashion, they may be truly lacking in their ability to know what is and is not sin, or what is or is not grave matter.

Please note that both of these give HOPE, but are far from reassuring.

Yes, one can HOPE a currently unrepentant sinner will repent later. But who would want to bet risk ten dollars, let alone their eternal destiny, on that?

Yes, one can HOPE that a person can squeak into heaven by being, in effect, TOO IGNORANT to qualify for hell. But who on earth would want to bet ten dollars, let alone their eternal destiny, on the hope that they’re ignorant enough? (And as Jimmy explains, anyone taking THAT attitude would clearly NOT be “ignorant enough,” since it would be willful, not invincible, ignorance…and thus, morally culpable.)

If anything, I read Jimmy’s article as, “Hey, here’s a couple of slender reeds of hope, so that you don’t give up entirely on these persons and just write them off. See, look: These folk are still worthy of being preached to and exhorted and cajoled to turn around: There’s still time, there’s still a chance, there’s still hope, it looks bad, but the game’s not over, and the fat lady hasn’t sung yet.”

But anyone who’s reading Jimmy’s article as saying, “Hey, relax, don’t worry, these people are too dumb to qualify for hell, and anyway, they’ll probably repent when they get old anyhow, so there’s nothing to worry about” is totally misreading the article.

In his characteristically polite way, he’s pointing out that SOME hope remains. But look, please, at how much of a reach our cause for hope is. Look at how speculative it is. If there were MUCH hope, it would be described in far stronger terms, wouldn’t it?

Just as we say that a person can be “damned with faint praise,” the very fact of how slim is the basis for this hope demonstrates its tentative nature.

Posted by Kenneth on Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 12:12 AM (EDT):

If following 2000 years of Tradition and Sacred Scripture makes us guilty of “doing the devils work” then fine

Posted by jacobum on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:55 PM (EDT):

Thank You Father Samuel M Waters for your post and quotes. For the safety and salvation of my soul Me thinks tis far wiser to take to heart the words of 3 Doctors of the Church plus an ordinary Saint. This article is “Jimmyspeak” at it’s best. Unfortunately, it is too close to the PC of the modernist “Church Nice”. When one considers that Christ died and rose and founded his Church to save us, plus he himself mentioned “hell” 90 times versus “heaven” 27 times in the New Testament, well it becomes clear, that following Jimmyspeak” can be hazardous. Doesn’t compute with the charity and clarity of Fatima or St Faustina. You would think the internet was just discovered last week and ordinary people had no way of independently finding the Truth.

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT GOD DOES NOT SEND PEOPLE TO HELL BUT TO FINISH THE QUOTE “WE SEND OURSELVES TO HELL BY THE THINGS WE DO OR DO NOT DO”.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:20 PM (EDT):

@Annie -now validating herself a “Master Catechist: “[By no means is the Apostle’s Creed a comprehensive or final list of beliefs. It is a general statement of belief.”]
.
Now you sound like a modern Pharisee. Lists, more lists and final lists. Seems Peter and Paul should have consulted you—before ACTS and Romans were written.

Posted by Shamrock on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:19 PM (EDT):

Catholics are taught that Jesus or God never *sends* anyone to Hell or wishes damnation for His Creatures. He has gone to great length to save
all who have ears to hear, eyes to see and the will to obey. Period!!!
Stop with all the angst here…all the Bible quotes taken out of context, creating fear and doubt in souls that should be aasured by the great gift of Life…and have FAITH!!! Our God is a Love! and not a sadist as some here indicate in self rightous tones. Practice gratitude, not attitude!!!Be grateful and give glory! Stop doing the Devil’s work of disparagement and discouragement. We are all in the same boat; and I am not talking about the Catholic Church here. Yes, all salvific grace comes through it but how it flows out beyond the walls of the Church ( as it most surely does )is one of the great mysteries. As Blessed John Paul II wrote in his
book CROSSING THE THRESHOLD, there is salvation outside the walls of the Catholic Church so all can have hope. Would it be better if everyone became Catholic in the world of grace? Sure and we should be working by
example towards that end but we can only determine our own eternal fate and not anyone else’s. It is God who saves, not Catholics, except by His
Will.

Posted by TBell on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:48 PM (EDT):

Sounds like Mr. Akin has been reading Father Robert Barron. I must thank Father Barron for many great teachings. But this is not one of them.

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:40 PM (EDT):

Mike

lol your killing me by ACTUALLY burying akin and Shea with patristica….. Still waiting on She to produce a single solitary ECF who shares Akins view…. There are none.

‘I exhort you, therefore, not to faint in your afflictions, but to be revived by God’s love, and to add daily to your zeal, knowing that in you ought to be preserved that remnant of true religion which the Lord will find when He comes on the earth. Even if bishops are driven from their Churches, be not dismayed. If traitors have arisen from among the very clergy themselves, let not this undermine your confidence in God. We are saved not by names, but by mind and purpose, and genuine love toward our Creator. Bethink you how in the attack against our Lord, high priests and scribes and elders devised the plot, and how few of the people were found really receiving the word. Remember that it is not the multitude who are being saved, but the elect of God. Be not then affrighted at the great multitude of the people who are carried hither and thither by winds like the waters of the sea. If but one be saved, like Lot at Sodom, he ought to abide in right judgment, keeping his hope in Christ unshaken, for the Lord will not forsake His holy ones. Salute all the brethren in Christ from me. Pray earnestly for my miserable soul.’
St. Basil the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘Nor should we think that it is enough for salvation that we are no worse off than the mass of the careless and indifferent, or that in our faith we are, like so many others, uninstructed.’
St. Bede the Venerable, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘Meditate on the horrors of Hell which will last for eternity because of one easily-committed mortal sin. Try hard to be among the few who are chosen. Think of the eternal flames of Hell, and how few there are that are saved.’
St. Benedict Joseph Labre

‘Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, impurity, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, acts of selfishness, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.’
Galatians 5:19-21

‘The Lord called the world a “field” and all the faithful who draw near to him “wheat.” All through the field, and around the threshing-floor, there is both wheat and chaff. But the greater part is chaff; the lesser part is wheat, for which is prepared a barn not a fire. . . The good also are many, but in comparison with the wicked the good are few. Many are the grains of wheat, but compared with the chaff, the grains are few.’
St. Augustine, Doctor and Father of the Church

Posted by Mike on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:19 PM (EDT):

Bishop Where…
I agree with you !
you have to be aware that modernist, liberal, feminist catholics have jonny-come-lately popped into Holy Mother Catholic Church and their battle cry is - buy my book - and hey you Catholics that have always been Catholic dont know your faith - let us converts teach you ....
AND they are really big on ...some great liberties taken to make our faith more palatable to outsiders….
As Saint Paul tells us ...be watchful!
EVERYONE knows what a mortal is is…try make an attempt to give people a -free pass- under the silliness of - Oh I did not know what I was doing!
is doing them a dis-service to the faith and mostly likely will cause many to stray.

Posted by Brwno on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:15 PM (EDT):

Darn it! We could argue all the about the number of the saved, but the part that botters me the most in the article is this:

“What we are fundamentally responsible for is the salvation of our own souls. We need to make sure that we respond to God’s grace.

We want to do what we can for other people, but they are ultimately in God’s hands, not ours, and that is where we should leave them.”

Avoiding fornication is not hard and it is easy to confess. But what about fraternal correction! Think about it: if 99% of our fellow parishioners don’t know it, and we live among them and watch them sin, aren’t we the ones who should fear? Do we really have the right to remains silent? It took my peace of mind a long time ago.

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:14 PM (EDT):

One could literally bury Akin and Shea with patristic quotes on this topic. I love you guys… But your just way wrong on this one.

Posted by Shamrock on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:10 PM (EDT):

@ Alex…..Sorry, I should have used the word *religion* where I used
the word *faith*! Meaning: In Heaven people of all religions, as well as Catholics,that profess Christ as their Savior, as well as those, while not part of a formal religion, but profess Christ the Lord will be found. Remember the Gospel of the Good Shepard wherein Jesus tells us he has sheep of another fold.
But in Heaven I don’t think there will be any division amongst us, we will reign forever as the adopted sons and daughters of God, through the merits of Christ, His Son, our Saviour.
I am not sure my *intrepretation* of the Pope’s recent words are not in
keeping with what you’ve expressed. Consider the encouragment and loving
words of Pope Francis in his book titled On Heaven and Earth:
“God always gives life. He gives it to you here and He will give it to you in the next life. He is the God of life, not of death”. I think he is saying not everyone will go to Heaven but those who choose the gift, who choose life from the hands of the Lord. (p.77) And elsewhere in this inspirational book he has these encouraging words: “In the Gospels
the topic of the Last Judgment appears, and it is linked in one way or another with love. Jesus says: To my right shall be all those who helped their neighbor and to my left, all those that did not, because what you did to one of these, you did to me.(Matt.25:31-46) For Christians, one’s neighbor is the person of Christ”.(p.82) He continues later on: “I trust in the mercy of God, that he will be benevolent” ( upon death)(p. 86) He speaks with words, always,of encouragement. Words we should also speak to one another as Paul so eloquently in his epistles suggested all Christians must do. And in the face of death, as in life, remember we have that great cloud of witnesses cheering us on to victory. Whether one goes to Heaven, we cannot presume for ourselves,let alone others. But we should all want to spend eternity with our Saviour, Jesus Christ and follow His path to Calvary when our time on earth is winding down. Remember St Faustina, in her diary, stated that Jesus calls to each one of us, three times (like Peter)at our death. Pray that we can answer with the courage and conviction and devotion of Peter, “Yes, Lord, You know I love you” as well as to beg for his infinte mercy, earned by His Cross. Don’t dispair but keep aware! of His Promises to all His faithful. It is the work of the Devil to discourage us and fill us with doubt. Never doubt the great gift of God that has been purchased for each and every one of us at an inestimable price. Pray that you and I can accept the gift, with humility and love by developing those virtues in our daily
lives.

Posted by Shin on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:47 PM (EDT):

@ Shea

‘What did Our Lord answer the curious man in the Gospel who asked Him, “Lord, is it only a few to be saved?” Did He keep silence? Did He answer haltingly? Did He conceal His thought for fear of frightening the crowd? No. Questioned by only one, He addresses all of those present. He says to them: “You ask Me if there are only few who are saved?” Here is My answer: “Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Who is speaking here? It is the Son of God, Eternal Truth, who on another occasion says even more clearly, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” He does not say that all are called and that out of all men, few are chosen, but that many are called; which means, as Saint Gregory explains, that out of all men, many are called to the True Faith, but out of them few are saved. Brothers, these are the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Are they clear? They are true. Tell me now if it is possible for you to have faith in your heart and not tremble.’

St. Leonard of Port Maurice

‘Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.’

St. Jerome

Posted by charles harmett on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:21 PM (EDT):

Approximately 25% of Catholics attend Sunday mass regularly. That is a major major problem for the church in this country. it starts with Sunday mass. no catholic is truly catholic unless that obligation is fufilled.

Posted by Allan Wafkowski on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:02 PM (EDT):

Christ said that few stay on the road that leads to heaven. How many is few? We don’t know, but we do know that few is not many and that many is not few. Christ had angry words to say about the lukewarm. It is pretty clear that souls do not stumble into heaven, rather is requires close attention in living a good life.

Posted by Aloysius Duque on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:55 PM (EDT):

Too early to say! True People of God have always conquered powerful nations from the inside.

Posted by one anonymous on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:53 PM (EDT):

Mark Shea, you say, quote: “Jesus, when asked “Will many be saved or few?” didn’t bother answering the question. He answered the questioner: “Make every effort to enter in” and referred the question back to *his* task of taking the narrow way, not to speculating about the fates of other.”

Could not Jesus’ reply “Make every effort to enter in” be a strong word of caution and urgency that indeed few will be saved? There seems to me no insinuation that the person asking the question should NOT consider the fates of others, I just don’t see that there in Jesus’ answer, but I do see “every effort” as a call to be very diligent because the answer is “few”. There are of course other Scriptures that point clearly to our needing to consider the fates of others, of course, and preaching the Gospel (evangelize) is why we do most diligently consider the fates of others. We don’t want anyone to go to hell!

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:22 PM (EDT):

By no means is the Apostle’s Creed a comprehensive or final list of beliefs. It is a general statement of belief.

Posted by Liam Ronan on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:14 PM (EDT):

@JeniP,
I pray your sentiments are correct in the end. For me, I have always contemplated this passage from scripture (Luke 12: 47 - 48) and its implications for those who have never had the Faith preached to them:
“47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.”

Posted by chris awo on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:11 PM (EDT):

Recipe for going to heaven :
...The judgments of the Lord are just;
they are always fair.
10 They are more desirable than gold than the purest of gold;
they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb.
11 They give knowledge to me, your servant;
I am rewarded for obeying them.
12 No one can see his own errors;
deliver me, Lord, from sins of ignorance!
13 Keep me safe, also, from willful(presumptuous) sins;
don’t let them rule over me.
Then I shall be perfect
and free from the great evil of sin.
14 May the words of my mouth, and the meditations of my mind,
be acceptable in your sight, O Lord,
my refuge and my redeemer! cf psalm 19

Posted by JeniP on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:06 PM (EDT):

I’m with tony!! Great post! Awareness of our own sinfulness should thrust us into God’s mercy. I can’t believe that someone in the middle of Africa that never heard of Christ their entire lives, but tried to live lovingly and selflessly the best they knew how would be damned forever. Our God is merciful.

Posted by FR. SAMUEL M. WATERS on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 8:03 PM (EDT):

A LOT OF AMERICAN CATHOLICS HAS “TAKEN DRINK OF THE KOOLAID” THAT SAYS THE CHURCH IS SUBORDINATE TO THE STATE AND THAT THE STATE HAS THE POWER TO DETERMINE WHAT IS MORAL. THIS THOUGHT WAS BORN DURING THE PERIOD OF THE “ENLIGHTENMENT”. THIS THOUGHT SETS MAN AS THE ONE WHO DECIDES WHAT IS MORAL. IT DIVORCES GOD AND THE NATURAL LAW FROM OBJECTIVE TRUTH. WHAT WE ARE LEFT WITH IS THE REALITY OF IMMORALITY BEING PROTECTED IN LAW.

MANY CATHOLIC AMERICANS BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE “THE RIGHT”, GIVEN THEM BY THE STATE TO DETERMINE WHAT IS MORAL AND WHAT THEY CHOSE TO DO. GOD WHO IS ALL TRUTH IS REJECTED ON THE “GROUNDS” THAT THIS IS MY RIGHT. HOWEVER WITH THIS REJECTION COMES ETERNAL DAMNATION.

I do, however, shudder to think of the last nanoseconds of a dying person’s life, where the Enemy is giving His final accusations to tell him that he is not worthy of God’s love based upon his despicable life. And he hardly has a leg to stand on because of his ignorance, yet he has love in his heart. Where does that love come from if not from God? And that poor person might actually agree with the Enemy that he does not deserve to be with God, and by his own choosing selects his eternity because he was ill-equipped but not because he rebels against God. Don’t you think God is going to be strongly wooing him at that moment too, and making known the Truth so he can finally make a right choice? Sadly I think a lot of souls still lose unnecessarily because they feel unworthy, and lack the sacraments too.
That’s where our Catholic faith gives us a huge advantage, because we have been exercising it so we enter the last moments of death stronger and better prepared.

Posted by FR. SAMUEL M. WATERS on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:51 PM (EDT):

‘We owe God a deep regret of gratitude for the purely gratuitous gift of the true faith with which he has favored us. How many are the infidels, heretics and schismatic who do not enjoy comparable happiness? The earth is full of them and they are all lost!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

Posted by FR. SAMUEL M. WATERS on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:48 PM (EDT):

‘The saved are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are: yet amongst those few I wish to be!’
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘If you would be quite sure of your salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few. Do not follow the majority of mankind, but follow those who renounce the world and never relax their efforts day or night so that they may attain everlasting blessedness.’
St. Anselm, Doctor of the Church

‘A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever. According to statistics, approximately 80,000 persons die every day. How many of these will die in mortal sin, and how many will be condemned! For, as their lives have been, so also will be their end.’
St. Anthony Mary Claret

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:48 PM (EDT):

@Annie: You should then petition to have those teachings added to the Apostles Creed since there you will find the essentials of faith.

Posted by TeaPot562 on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:48 PM (EDT):

In the Gospels, Jesus tells one parable in Matthew 25:31-46 and another parable in Luke 16:19-31. Both bear on the same point, the Second great commandment (“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”).
I am not suggesting that other sinful actions by people are to be disregarded. Consider also that actions taken from selfishness - treating other people as “things” (using the services of a prostitute, e.g.) on a habitual basis tend to increase the selfishness of a person.
Following the Church’s traditional teachings on various types of sins concerning the Fifth (murder, including willful abortion), the Sixth (adultery and other sins of the flesh) etc. may make one more sensitive to the needs of a sister or brother; but Pride and Greed for the accumulation of worldly goods also need to be guarded against.
Recognize also that I (and you!) know others in your community who do more than we do, either to help the poor and/or to extend the Faith. So few of us can equal the work of Mother Teresa, Chesterton or Francis Xavier. Don’t take the attitude of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.
Our work is NOT to spend our time conjecturing about the proportion or number to be saved; but to work to extend His kingdom, and alleviate the suffering of those around us. Even people we don’t know - including undocumented immigrants - are our brothers and sisters.
TeaPot562

Let’s not forget that an ignorant sinner does not have a rosy life but rather a life that is very unpeaceful, constantly suffering consequences of his actions he has no idea why, and also not knowing where to turn for peace. Can you imagine not knowing about the law of gravity and its consequences? Man, that would hurt. Yet that’s where many people are spiritually. They simply do not understand the gravity of their choices.
Not that obedient Christians don’t suffer, for Christ suffered. They know what to do with that suffering though, because they understand its redemptive power. We also have to remember that just following the rules does not justify us, or as St. Paul teaches in Galations 2:21, Christ died for nothing.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:42 PM (EDT):

@Not So Ignorant Sinner: [“What if you don’t know that your duty is to inform and educate yourself? In other words, ignorance of the Faith through…uh…ignorance.”]
.
How many people would you say are in this category? How is it possible to be in the faith, in the church and remain ignorant? How many experience the ritual of infant water baptism and remain ignorant? Are they truly ignorant or simply comfortably lazy and on the broad road?
.
Nicodemus stuggled with the same understanding. Jesus said “A man must be born again (of the Spirit).”
.
A man might be under the water,—but not under the blood. “Choose to enter by the narrow gate.”

Posted by EJ on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:40 PM (EDT):

What makes the whole question stickier is the fact that the enemy penetrated the Church from the top down. First the formators in the seminaries and convents, which then turned out a slew of wayward priests and nuns who were charged with the moral (de)formation of two generations of Catholics in America. The Holy Spirit still however can operate in the souls of those whose consciences have been malformed and Natural Law is still staring us straight in the face even if we weave fancy arguments to rationalize our sinful lives.

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:40 PM (EDT):

They are not adjunct teachings. They are the Church’s teachings and thus Christ’s teachings. Faith and works. Not “the faith that I choose to have based on the only things I chose to believe regardless of what the Church teaches.”

Posted by tony on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:35 PM (EDT):

Jimmy, thanks for this article!

While I have some sympathy with the commenters who fear this is some sort of loophole that is encouraging laxity in the church, I would encourage everyone to take a deep breath. Jimmy is merely presenting three quotes from the catechism and an encyclical from one of the prominent theologians of the 20th century, who also happened to be a pope.

if two people commit suicide but one of them was abused and suffered from depression. Do they receive the same judgement? Jesus preached that to those whom much is given, much will be expected and to whom little was given, little will be expected. does this only apply to money? can this also apply to psychological, familial and societal influences? are these things not graces?

how do you pray for the recently deceased? do you say dear god please have mercy on their soul but only if he was in a state of grace. or only if it was really close and he didn’t make it to heaven on a technicality? Otherwise this would be some form of injustice???

finally, the world view that we must either emphasize god’s grace or our sinfulness leaves christians with a false choice. for catholics, the answer is always both/and. we should be wary of our sinfulness but even more aware of God’s grace.

Posted by Liam Ronan on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:35 PM (EDT):

@Not So Ignorant Sinner,
I think we’re talking here about labourers who are unaware there’s any work to be done and, such being the case, don’t turn up at all.
They aren’t owed a bean no matter how generous the ‘Employer’.

Yes, I know because you and I know better :-D Ay, there’s the rub. And then there’s the worker who shows up at the last second and gets a full day’s compensation because each got paid according to what was offered by the big boss and accepted by the worker, and his compensation doesn’t take anything away from that of the laborer who put in the full day. God’s mercy is greater than His justice…fortunately..or we’d all be doomed.

Posted by Margaret Mary Myers on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:23 PM (EDT):

Thank you for a great post. For those who seem to think this is an excuse to sin, the way I read it was not that I should excuse myself for my sins but that I should not judge others for what appears to be theirs.

Posted by Bishop Now! on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:22 PM (EDT):

In all humility and with great respect, in love, I too ask for a BISHOP of the church to provide official teaching on this matter either as a comment or a new article. There is something not right about Jimmy’s interpretation which appears to provide a loop-hole/license to sin and have that sin excused without confession (not mentioned at all!), Purgatory, penance, etc. We are Catholics, not “once saved always saved” Presbyterians (as Jimmy once was). The greatest scheme of the enemy is to convince us that he doesn’t exist and that God would never send a “poor, ignorant soul” to perdition. That is not true. Many are called BUT FEW are chosen. The leeway this article gives a seeker will only bring them closer to hell’s gates and for that reason an official of the church must intervene and correct any and all errors now, please.

Posted by Liam Ronan on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:14 PM (EDT):

@Not So Ignorant Sinner,
So we continually inform and educate ourselves throughout our lives on everything from computer software to politics to world events to NBA team stats, but don’t give a toss about furthering our religious education?
We involve ourselves in what interests us. And what of the love of God and the desire to ‘know, love, and serve Him’? Can’t be bothered?
Perhaps if we were the mindless self-absorbed Eloi in H.G. Wells’ ‘Time Machine’we might get away with it but I suspect our indolence and cultivated ignorance will prove a hard pitch to sell before the throne of Almighty God.

What if you don’t know that your duty is to inform and educate yourself? In other words, ignorance of the Faith through…uh…ignorance. Like a kid whose parents just didn’t make him go to CCE, so then he grows up ignorant.

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:59 PM (EDT):

Mark,

I’m sorry for the tone of my responses but I have to admit that I am sorely let down by two of my favorite catholic authors today. To speculate that the “broad road that leads to destruction” and “the narrow way” are not REALLY broad and not REALLY narrow is just wishful thinking. I challenge you to name ANY Early Church Fathers (that didn’t fall into heresy like Origen) that thought this way. I contend that the early church would be appauled at this article.

as for mortal sin,

of course Jimmy didn’t make any mistakes in his definitions… But he left his audience with the idea that many in the Church today push which is that BASICALLY ignorance washes away sin. Saying that it is POSSIBLE for an baptized invincibly ignorant person to go to heaven does not entail that it is PROBABLE which you and Jimmy would have us believe.

There was a recent CA broadcast entitled “why don’t Catholics evangelize?” with hector Molina. I believe that it is this very attitude towards unbelievers that is one of the largest reasons.

Not guilty owing to invincible ignorance? I think not. There is an enduring duty before God to inform and educate ourselves continually about the tenents and doctrines of our Catholic Faith.
Ignorance of the Faith through sloth or disinterest is no excuse.

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:39 PM (EDT):

@Annie: [“Those two teachings specifically are dogma and as a Catholic you must believe them.”]
.
I understand that. Not a problem with your specific comment. However, salvation in Christ is not based upon “adjunct” teachings.

Posted by Mark Shea on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:31 PM (EDT):

are you asserting that when Christ references the broad and narrow roads he is not answering the question of who will be saved but of His own task?!?!? Lord help the post V2 Church

No. Of the *questioners* task to “strive to enter by the narrow way”. Our job is not to judge others or speculate about the population statistics of heaven and hell but to obey Jesus. Obeying Jesus *is* the narrow way. Lord help the reactionary accuser.

Posted by Larry on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:30 PM (EDT):

First I’d like to repeat a section of #1860 which has already been cited by at least two posters above: “But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.” Now this passage from Ezekiel Chapter 3, in which God commissions the prophet to warn the Israelites that they are in danger of eternal death: “18 If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death.

19 If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.”

I think it’s pretty clear that “invincible ignorance” is possible only in the realm of Divine Revelation through the Church—i.e, the necessity of being Catholic, of the Mass and Sacraments, etc. Invincible ignorance of the eternal moral law (i.e. sex within marriage only, no contraception, etc) is not possible (at least on a long-term basis) for adults of sound mind and full use of reason. In that case the only excuse would be some kind of lack of full consent—some constraint upon free use of the will.

Posted by JeniP on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:29 PM (EDT):

Just glancing over some comments - but could it be reasonable to think that all of the Catholic Truth and Dogma is here to facilitate us loving? Loving Christ - loving others? What other use would they have? They all help us to know Christ better so we can love Him more - and become more and more united to Him - all the way to perfect unity in Heaven. I think we will be “judged” on how much we have chosen to love Him (by loving others) in this life - or the other way of putting it - we practice choosing to love Him here so we ultimately choose to love Him forever in heaven. Anyway - I’m certainly no theologian, but that is my (probably very) simplistic view of our beautiful faith! And whatever happened to Felix Culpa? We are broken - and we need the redeeming love of Christ! Let’s show others that same love in the little ways we can!

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:28 PM (EDT):

This is what Jesus has to say about the topic

MATT 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:22 PM (EDT):

Hi Crowns, not an RCIA leader but a master catechist. Yes we must have faith and works together.

I never said we are judged on one specific belief about a teaching. Those two teachings specifically are dogma and as a Catholic you must believe them. Why? Because the Church said so. Because Jesus entrusted His church to St. Peter and gave him the power to make the rules. Because Pope Francis is the successor of St. Peter. If a Catholic rejects a specific teaching then he is not in communion with the church and thus should refrain from receiving the Eucharist. Again, there is a big difference between total rejection and saying I’m not totally comfortable with a belief but I’ll go with it because it’s what the Church teaches. And yes, prayer is extremely important in all of this.

We will be judged on faith and works, but not cafeteria faith where one picks and chooses beliefs.

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:21 PM (EDT):

Mark shea,

are you asserting that when Christ references the broad and narrow roads he is not answering the question of who will be saved but of His own task?!?!? Lord help the post V2 Church

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:05 PM (EDT):

@Fr. Sam Waters. Agreed. [“and must be believed to be a Catholic.”].
.
But on *what* basis will you be judged?

Posted by Fr. Sam Waters on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:59 PM (EDT):

Mary’s perpetual virginity and purgatory are Dogmas of the church and must be believed to be a Catholic. If you do not believe in these you are not a Catholic. Dogma is revealed truth ( either from sacred scripture or sacred tradition) that has been defined by the Church and must be believed to be savedr. Fr. Sam Waters

Posted by Casting Crowns on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:47 PM (EDT):

@Annie: You sound like an RCIA leader. No one said the church doesn’t provide guidance, however you still haven’t addressed how accepting Mary’s perpetual virginal status or purgatory is what we are judged by.
.
[“and last time I checked there is a gospel reading at every mass.”] Yes, fine. What are you personally doing with this reading?
.
On what basis will you be judged?

Posted by James Lipski on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:35 PM (EDT):

Most people are like water and electricity. They will take the shortest,easiest route to whatever. G.K. Chesterton put it best when he stated that “In general, the reason Catholicism is rejected by so many is not because it has been tried and found wanting. But rather, Catholicism has been tried and found difficult. Yes, it is difficult but hardly impossible. Prayer is the key to everything. With prayer you will receive graces. With graces you will acquire wisdom, perseverance, discipline and more. Confession will be something to look forward to instead of feared. The Eucharist will be the culmination of your best efforts to serve God and you won’t care about beating everyone out of the parking lot after Mass.

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:22 PM (EDT):

“As adults there are many teachings which are not required for salvation.”

Such as?

Crowns, it sounds to me as if you are not Catholic or have turned away from the Church. The doctrines of Purgatory as well as Mary’s perpetual virginity are tenets of the Catholic faith, and Catholics are definitely required to believe them. No one ever said to disregard the gospel, and last time I checked there is a gospel reading at every mass. Yes, the Church has teachings which are based on those that Jesus taught his apostles (you know, Peter and that whole keys to the kingdom thing). Scripture, Oral Tradition, and the Magisterium are a package deal and protected by the Holy Spirit regardless of whether or not you believe it. Jesus entrusted the Catholic Church to Peter and consequently we are subject to Her teachings. Sola scriptura does not apply here (FYI, sola scriptura isn’t in scripture either). John even tells us that there is much more to Jesus than could ever be written.

The gate is indeed narrow and all the more reason to look to the Church for guidance.

Posted by one anonymous on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:19 PM (EDT):

Jerry, you do so many good things for others because as you say, you knew it was right. You may want to ask yourself, how? How do you know it is right? What prompts you, what tugs on your heart when you see someone in need and you are willing to make sacrifices for that person. Maybe there is something more than just the satisfaction of “doing what is right” that prompts you. But if that is why you do what you do then that is very good but still it your reward, you enjoy “tooting your own horn” as you say. And so, in that, is your reward. You may say that you don’t want any reward and so maybe you don’t in the sense of material or a pat on the back reward as most would understand it, but you do receive the satisfaction of doing good for others and that in itself is why you do it, that is your reward.

I am going on like this to try to make a point that as Christians we do good not only for our own satisfaction, but for God, and sometimes it is even very painful and there is not even any personal satisfaction of doing good but only rejection, persecution, hostility, and for some even being killed. But we do it anyway because God has promised us Heaven and not only Heaven but Himself, here and now… because God is our reward. Because he unites Himself to us here and now when we Love Him, and union with Him is a Joy that no good deed done, no amount of goodness, nothing on this earth can compare to. We receive a taste of Heaven here and now, and that is a promise, a foretaste of the Perfect Love and Joy and satisfaction we will know when we are in Heaven. Heaven is not the perfect vacation spot, it is complete Love and unity with God. Sadly though, if we refuse God, we can not be united with Him as He so much desires with every one of us and you too Jerry. We can choose hell, we have the choice because God doesn’t want to force us to Love Him like we were slaves, but He wants us to Love Him back with a free will, yes, God wants our Love. Jesus Loves you Jerry and He wants you to Love Him too.

Posted by Mark Shea on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:18 PM (EDT):

Jimmy:

Well done! I don’t have much to add, but I just thought you might like to hear a friendly voice saying, “You pretty much nailed it.”

Jesus, when asked “Will many be saved or few?” didn’t bother answering the question. He answered the questioner: “Make every effort to enter in” and referred the question back to *his* task of taking the narrow way, not to speculating about the fates of other. Still sound advice.

You done good.

Posted by Angel on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:05 PM (EDT):

Paul,

“The current result being that they are comdemning themselves.”

So if people warned other people about hell, they are “condemning themselves.”???????

You got some nerve, no one is judging here.
However YOU ARE CONDEMNING OTHERS!!!!
However, “He who persists in Sin, REBUKE HIM in the presence of All.” - 1 Timothy 5:20

We have Christ, we have the Church, we have the teachings of the Church (the teachings can be found on the Internet), yet the Neo-Pagan of this generation is much much worst for they are interested in porn, facebook, dancing with stars, and other filth.

The NEO-PAGAN have the ultrasound that shows the face of the baby yet they still kill their unborn! They will severed the baby spinal cords and put the baby’s feet in a jar as trophy.

THE CONDITION OF THIS GENERATION IS WORST THAN BEFORE CHRIST FIRST CAME:

“For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.” - 2 Peter 2:20

We should be taking the command to evangelize seriously! The quote below is from “Will Many Be Saved.” by Ralph Martin:

“It is important to note here that the overwhelming theological and magisterial interpretation of the texts of Scripture on the issue of salvation up until relatively recently has understood Scripture as saying that it is likely that the majority of the human race will be lost.”

Christ’s words: “However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” Luke 18:8

We are to evangelize, we are to take our own and other people eternal salvation seriously!

Posted by Alex Richards on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:57 PM (EDT):

@ Jerry

Jerry,

You’ve created an excellent thought experiment with your sincere narrative. The answer to your very clearly articulated question is no, without faith in Jesus Christ, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is plenty of scripture to support my answer, but you say you don’t believe a God who would inspire scripture even exists, so that avenue will not be any help to you until you come to see the Gospels as accurate historical testimony to a historical person who did exist.

There are myriad documented miracles occurring throughout history that testify to the validity of the Church and her interpretation of scripture.

A very good book on this topic can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Apologetics-Catholic-Doctrine-Cardinal-Sheehan/dp/1905574452

@Annie: Your insider Catholic myopia needs correction. While we were taught many things in Catholic grammar school, we also know (now) as adults there are many teachings which are not required for salvation.
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Whether or not Padre Pio actually levitated during Mass, the so-called “hidden mysteries” of Sr. Faustina, that Mary was a “perpetual virgin” throughout her married life to Joseph or whether or not purgatory is an actual place have no bearing on your salvation.
.
It’s always interesting that people will say: “The Church teaches x, y and z” without ever mentioning the Gospel. Rather than worrying whether most Catholics are going to Hell, it’s more important to assess whether one is personally on that pathway.
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The Gospel of Jesus is clear regarding the “lukewarm” and not how many church rules and regulations you are following. He said the gate is narrow. Likewise the road is broad which “leadeth to destruction—and few there are that find it.” Even those in church. That there are “few” who find it should be taken as a serious warning.
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If you wish to hang your hat on church legalism, good luck. Better if one has fully surrendered his or her life to Christ as Jesus said. The cost of discipleship is not cheap.

Posted by JeniP on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:43 PM (EDT):

Jimmy - great article! Sad to see so many posting here believe that these Truths are pandering to our culture in some way. May the Lord have mercy on us ALL:)

Posted by Cathy on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:39 PM (EDT):

I think it’s more likely that the CCD teachers and the priests who where supposed to teach them these things as kids are going to hell.
Catechism “2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.”
Catechism “2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion. Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to “social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible.“88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.”

Posted by Paul on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:26 PM (EDT):

Mr. Akin articulated well the teachings of the church and provided some well reasoned opinion that he made clear was opinion. In response many commenters assailed his theological statements and fabricated opinions, which they then criticized.

Catholics that post comments containing heretical positions and Catholics that uncharitably attribute heretical positions to others who do not hold would to well to consider that those actions could very constitute grave matter.

In particular those that hold that only grave matter is required for a mortal sin - not knowledge and consent, as well - would do well to address this matter within themselves. The current result being that they are comdemning themselves.

On another note, some bloggers deliberately write in a fashion to stir things up and I understand commenters getting drawn into it. However, Mr Akin doesn’t do this. Why then are so many comments - and not just from this post - the equivalent of hissy fits?

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:25 PM (EDT):

Jerry, it’s no one’s place to judge you. I would give you the shirt off my back if you needed it. There are many who are quick to judge and condemn. That is not the goal as a Catholic. The goal is to properly catechize and make right any misunderstandings about the Church and her teachings. I would say, check out your local parish and see if they have an RCIA class. They are totally non-committal. They are free and there is no pressure to join. I understand it’s tough to sit through that if you have no belief in any god at all. But maybe you could gain a little insight into the faith.

If you went through RCIA and still decided to reject Christ and his teachings, then the catechetical answer would be yes, you are turning your back on the truth and therefore cutting yourself off from heaven.

I find it interesting that you are asking, as an atheist, if you are going to hell after listing your litany of good works. Are you sure you don’t have a believing bone in your body? Generally atheists show up to say, “you Jesus lovers are all a bunch of crazy freaks and you’re all stupid.” But yet you are asking if you are hell-bound. I find that interesting…

Best of luck to you in trying to find the truth. And I do mean that sincerely.

Posted by Jerry on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:13 PM (EDT):

I need to ask a question. I’m gay, Atheist, liberal and pro-life. I don’t believe in gods. Yes, I’ve heard the “gospel message.” I’ve read the bible several times and countless numbers of books and apologetics by Christians, including Catholics. I’ve never, ever been convinced that there are such things as gods, including the various Christian gods (and, yes, you all have various gods; if you didn’t, you wouldn’t be broken up into thousands of competing sects - even within Catholicism, there are debates, battles and disagreements regarding the Catholic god). So I’ve heard that message, unlike some poor girl in an impoverished, third-world nation. And it not only doesn’t convince, but I’ve debated and argued with those who tried to convince me. I’ve even managed to convert a few to Atheism because not only were they perplexed, but they realized that their beliefs in their gods has no foundation. So I’m Atheist. No one has ever offered a proof or argument that any god exists and that we will all end up either playing harps or shoveling coal.

That being said, I consider myself a good person. As a gay, Atheist liberal, I’m staunchly pro-life. I am because logic, reason and rational thought can only make one pro-life. I want to see abortion legally abolished (I love rubbing it in the faces of pro-abortionists when they use their specious terminology by telling them: “no legal reproductive health care for women - get pregnant, stay pregnant; your pregnancy is terminated for your health when you give birth;” it’s fun to goad them) and ethanasia should not only remain legally abolished but those convicted of it should be executed just as we did to the ones convicted at Nuremburg. But, after digression, I don’t mean to toot my own horn. Okay, I do. Toot, toot. I’ve gone well above and beyond to help those in need. I’ve had my gas turned off for over half-a-year (ever try bathing by boiling water on an electric stove-top?) because I gave what little money I had to help those less “fortunate.” Not even Mother Theresa has ever done that. Yup, I consider myself better than her. I’ve never been flown around the world First Class to receive countless millions of dollars for helping others. I walked, at times, over ten miles a day, round trip, rain, snow and freezing temperatures, to go to low-paying jobs to care for disabled youth when I couldn’t afford to pay to fix my car. No free First Class trips to receive another ka-ching award for me, unlike her. Toot-toot. There’s my horn again. False humility isn’t one of my trademarks. I’ve lost everything and have gone deeply into debt which will never be paid off caring for my sick mother. I could’ve just put her in a public nursing home but, no, I wanted her to have the best. And when I managed to scrounge up enough money to buy some food for myself, I gave that money away to someone less “fortunate” and went hungry for days until my neighbors brought over some bread. Toot-toot. I still do stuff like that.

So, am I going to hell because I don’t believe in gods or Jesus or Mary and heavens and hells and all that stuff? I have done, and do what I do, because I know, through rational, logical, reasonable thought, it’s the right thing to do. I once talked to a poor woman heading for an abortion business who said she felt she had no other choice. I had five dollars in my wallet, hoping to use that to buy some food for myself or help pay a bill. I gave it to her and went hungry and tried to convince the utilities not to shut off my electricity. She said that one gesture made her change her mind. I did it not because of your fictional Jesus, but because I knew it was right. Am I going to hell?

Tell me, am I going to your hell?

Posted by Angel on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:07 PM (EDT):

“For if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, but a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.” -

Hebrews 10:26-27

Posted by ly on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:58 PM (EDT):

If the section entitled “The State of American Catholics” is correct, then we’ve merely pushed the problem upstream, and the culpably negligent teachers will go to hell instead of their charges, whom they lead into error by the positive teaching of error and by the negligent failure to catechize.

Posted by Angel on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:57 PM (EDT):

I like your article Mr. Akin, BUT, I must disagree with you with the comment you stated below:

“We also should be careful in taking the pessimistic ones and applying them directly to our own age, because they were written in and about an age in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness and the knowledge of the true God and his Son was severely limited compared to today.”

If you read my post above about St. John Chrysostom, you can clearly understand why I am very “pessimistic.”

We have Christ, we have the Church, we have the teachings of the Church (the teachings can be found on the Internet), yet the Neo-Pagan of this generation is much much worst for they are interested in porn, facebook, dancing with stars, and other filth.
The NEO-PAGAN have the ultrasound that shows the face of the baby yet they still kill their unborn! They will severed the baby spinal cords and put the baby’s feet in a jar as trophy.

THE CONDITION OF THIS GENERATION IS WORST THAN BEFORE CHRIST FIRST CAME:

“For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.” - 2 Peter 2:20

Posted by ly on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:52 PM (EDT):

If such a state exists in the Church, it is the fault of the shepherds of the Church for not teaching that these things are mortal sins, and, if any of these people are habitually committing mortal sins—provided they genuinely do not think they are committing mortal sins—then their teachers will have to answer for it themselves.

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:50 PM (EDT):

Saying that it is POSSIBLE for one to be saved if they are invincibly ignorant…. And saying that it could very well be that the vast majority of all the human race is in all likely hood saved is something else altogether. POSSIBLE does NOT equal PROBABLE! Many liberal theologians and commentators today would love to have you believe “oh but wait! They were invincibly ignorant so then they are fine!” this is just fiction. It is POSSIBLE that a human could be born and never sin. It never happens…. But its POSSIBLE.

Posted by Angel on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:32 PM (EDT):

The words of St. John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.), who is a Doctor of the Church eloquently demonstrated the concept of those who are willfully ignorant so as to cause their own spiritual destruction:

“One should not think that ignorance excuses the non-believer…When you are ignorant of what can easily be known, you have to suffer the penalty…When we do all that is in our power, in matters where we lack knowledge, God will give us his hand, but if we do not do what we can, we do not enjoy God’s help either…So do not say: “How is it that God has neglected that sincere and honest pagan?” You will find that he has not really been diligent in seeking the truth, since what concerns the truth is now clearer than the sun. How shall they obtain pardon who, when they see the doctrine of truth spread before them, make no effort to come to know it?…It is impossible that anyone who is vigilant in seeking the truth should be condemned by God… “but how is it,” you ask, “that they have not believed?” It is because they did not wish to. And yet Christ did his part on their behalf; his passion [death on the Cross] bears witness to that.”

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:20 PM (EDT):

Put the brakes on. Now we’re getting into a “who can be saved” argument. There is a HUGE difference between people who KNOW the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Christ, and REJECTING it, versus those who DO NOT know that the Catholic Church is the true church, through no fault of their own. It IS possible for a non-Catholic (here on Earth) to go to heaven, as long as he has not rejected the truths and teachings of the Catholic faith, and that he has lived his faith to the fullest extent that God has revealed himself to that person. The catechism explicitly states this and it was also backed up by John Paul II. The person must know AND reject. That is the key.

Everything Jimmy stated regarding the conditions for mortal sin to exist are FACTUAL and taken from the catechism. If an individual chooses to find loopholes and rationalize his behavior by feigning ignorance, that is between him and God. I never saw anywhere in the article where he was giving reasons that sinning was ok. Also, when you’re dealing with addictions, you have to look at culpability and the mental health of that person. It’s not the same across the board as someone who is not struggling with an addiction.

At the end of the day, if the person is properly catechized there should be no question whether or not something is a mortal sin.

Posted by Alex Richards on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:29 PM (EDT):

@ Shamrock

Shamrock,

Your question is a good one. The new translation was imposed to fix the ambiguity of the previous translation. Christ died for many: those who recognize and enter his Catholic church, which he established upon Peter. It is important to remember that there are exceptions for those who never heard of the church and the gospel. These people have a shot at Heaven if they follow the natural law and live as virtuously as possible.

In regards to your other sincere question:

No, you will not find people of all faiths and no faith in Heaven.

There will, however, be people who were not in the visible Church on Earth, but who recognized and submitted to the truths she teaches in their heart and made a perfect act of sorrow for their sins before they died. Such cases are left to the infinite mercy of God.

It is important to remember that God does not owe us anything. He extended his hand; He has made his offer. It’s out of love that he allows us to accept Him or reject Him.

And finally, regarding Pope Francis:

I’m afraid you might have misunderstood the import of his homily. When Christ established the New Covenant, his act constituted an opening of up the Jewish covenant to the world. No longer were the Jews God’s chosen people, but all men. It’s something to be supremely grateful for. But, not everyone accepts Christ’s sacrifice unto their redemption: those people who reject him reject a freely offered gift. Pope Francis wanted to emphasize that we can find common ground in the doing of good works. It does not mean that everyone gets to Heaven because they do a good work.

All the best to you in your quest for the truth.

Posted by Jim Roth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:24 PM (EDT):

This is a tough one for me. Is living in Sodom exculpatory of sin? As for the darkness of pagan times compared to nowt
how can you tell if you are immersed in the muck yourself. I think things are
a lot darker now than you seem to believe. I grant your point that people are
influenced by their culture, but that is far different from brainwashing. I wouldn’t bet on this one.
Thanks
Jim

Posted by MRD on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:24 PM (EDT):

There is a real problem with this post, which is from a technical point of view completely correct. Everything said about the nature of mortal sin and the need for full consent and sufficient reflection is correct. The problem is the room for rationalization it leaves. In our current society the problem is not that too many people are afraid they are going to hell, it is rather that no one thinks hell is a real possibility. ( In fact some Theological luminaries like Hans Urs Balthasaar made the argument “well, hell is there but no one is in it”. This does not seem to me to square with either scripture, tradition or the broadly accepted and church approved private revelations such as that of the Blessed Mother at Fatima or Sister Faustina’s divine mercy.

I do not want to go over the top here and kind of relish the prospect of others being damned. I think the attitude is more one that all of us, should like St Paul said “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”. Jesus himself said the way that leads to eternal life is narrow while the way that leads to death is broad. He says at the end of Matthew’s gospel that many will say “Lord Lord” and he will say “I know you not..” The Children at Fatima said their were so many people falling into hell they were like “snow flakes”. Indeed all of the appearances of the Blessed Mother approved by the Church tend to emphasize the need to make sacrifices for sinners.

I am a physician. I do not deem it a service or kindness to a smoker to tell him, that’s ok, I know its not your fault that you smoke you probably won’t get lung cancer, nor do I tell the alcoholic.. its ok alcoholism is a disease.. not your fault, your liver will probably hold up. ( Even though not all smokers get Lung cancer, nor do all alcoholics get cirrhosis of the liver) It still is good practice to say.. look the risks of these things is great enough you should assume you may very well get them and you need to stop. I will help you.

Similarly no where in the Gospels do we here Jesus say… well you know Pharisees, I know some of that hardness of heart is not your fault having grown up in a certain culture and all… or any of the Fathers say you know all this fornication, and adultery and greed and anger etc is not done with full consent and sufficient reflection.. No they vigorously preached repentance as if there were grave consequences if people did not repent. I can not imagine why the early Christians died being torn apart by beasts in Roman arena’s if in reality most sinners were not fully responsible. Indeed the pagans the early Christians were preaching to would be less responsible than us, never having heard the gospel at all.

My concern is that this kind of post will lull people back to sleep when they should be getting awakened. What is the story of the 10 virgins again? Matt 25: 1-13

Posted by Suzana Malavasic on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:13 PM (EDT):

+JMJ

Many people are reading things into this article which are simply not there. Why? Because we who are trying to be faithful to the Church and in so doing Our LORD, find the attack of Satan upon the Church so overwhelming at times that we become disillusioned. Orthodox Christians are fighting the good fight, but so many who call themselves Catholic are weak and fall for the temptations of the great deceiver. They make a big splash in the media… and we have to fight all the more fervently. It is exhausting. Thus we are easily offended when it appears that anybody wants to give them a pass. I think it must be much like the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son. MY suggestion is that we turn the guilt on those who are most responsible… those who failed in the great responsibility given them to form the heart, minds and souls of the young 40 years ago (and even now). This is what it means in, “To those to whom much is given… much will be expected.”

Posted by michicatholic on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:09 PM (EDT):

Jimmy Akin,

You’re a convert. You know better. The Christian faith is precisely about Salvation by the actions of Jesus on the Cross. This is not just one version of the Christian faith; this IS the Christian faith. The crucifixion was an offer of salvation that each person has to accept to go to heaven.

Yes, Dominum Iesus brings up the case of the teenage girl in Riyadh who has never heard the Gospel preached, but most people cannot plead special cause like this. And at any rate, God isn’t so easy to fool. People planning on fooling God are probably going to get a big surprise.

Posted by Shamrock on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:01 PM (EDT):

I know this is a Catholic blog so I quess to ponder this question in
this narrow way is sort of meaningful…but did not Jesus Christ die
for all ( even though the new Norvus Ordo translation states *for many*)
and will we not find people of all faiths, and even no faith in both
Heaven and Hell? Our new Pope Francis seems to say so in one of his recent homilies. Why then just consider only Catholics? Are they held
to a different standard than the rest?

Posted by Alex Richards on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 1:40 PM (EDT):

“They are sleeping together outside of marriage, using porn, and doing a host of other things that can endanger their souls.”

These things don’t “endanger your soul,” they cast God out of your soul: they destroy sanctifying grace in your soul.

Don’t forget that the natural law is inscribed on the human heart: all the perversions being committed over and over again are not excusable by virtue of invincible ignorance: the natural law will condemn those who have deadened their conscience by repeated, repeated, repeated, and repeated offences. Addictions are not excuses; they don’t make a wrong right. If you think this isn’t true, then what in your mind was point of the narrative movement from bondage to freedom in Augustine’s Confessions all about?

GO look at ROMANS 10:3 ” They did not recognize God’s way of justification, and so they tried to institute a way of their own, instead of submitting to his.”

AND ROMANS 1:18-27::God’s anger is being revealed from heaven; his anger against the impiety and wrong-doing of the men whose wrong-doing denies his truth its full scope. 19 The knowledge of God is clear to their minds; God himself has made it clear to them; 20 from the foundations of the world men have caught sight of his invisible nature, his eternal power and his divineness, as they are known through his creatures. Thus there is no excuse for them; 21 although they had the knowledge of God, they did not honour him or give thanks to him as God; they became fantastic in their notions, and their senseless hearts grew benighted; 22 they, who claimed to be so wise, turned fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the imperishable God for representations of perishable man, of bird and beast and reptile. 24 That is why God abandoned their lustful hearts to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies among themselves. 25 They had exchanged God’s truth for a lie, reverencing and worshipping the creature in preference to the Creator (blessed is he for ever, Amen); 26 and, in return, God abandoned them to passions which brought dishonour to themselves. Their women exchanged natural for unnatural intercourse; 27 and the men, on their side, giving up natural intercourse with women, were burnt up with desire for each other; men practising vileness with their fellow men. Thus they have received a fitting retribution for their false belief.

Posted by Kenneth on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 1:38 PM (EDT):

Should we take all of Pope Honorious encyclical statements seriously as well? The problem I have with Jimmy and emeritus pope Benn. Musings is that they run contrary to the Pauline teachings in sacred scripture, to the unanimous teachings of the early church, and also to Jesus Christs message in the gospels. Embarrassing to see so many Catholics more concerned with “selling” Catholicism instead Of reforming and holding up the truth

Posted by FR. SAMUEL M. WATERS on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 1:25 PM (EDT):

WOW, THIS ARTICLE SOUNDS LIKE ANOTHER MODERNIST EXPLANATION THAT IT IS OKAY TO “CONTINUE TO SIN” BECAUSE YOUR SIN REALLY IS NOT THAT BAD. IT ALSO DOES NOT REFLECT THE SUFFERING THAT GOES ON IN PURGATORY. SOME SOULS THAT END UP THERE WILL BE THE SUFFERING UNTIL THE END OF TIME. I THINK THE WRITER MISSES THE POINT WHEN THEY TRY TO “EXPLAIN AWAY” THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE CHOOSING OF SIN OVER VIRTUE. THIS SEEMS TO SAY IT IS OKAY TO SIN “A LITTLE” WHEN IT COMES TO GRAVE MATTER. GRAVE MATER IN AND OF ITSELF MAKES SIN MORTAL. CLAIMING THAT IGNORANCE MAKE IT NON-MORTAL IS A LIE AND MISLEADING AT BEST. THE BLESSED MOTHER AT FATIMA TOLD THE CHILDREN THAT THEY WERE T PROMOTE THE DAILY RECITATION OF THE ROSARY BECAUSE SOULS WERE FALLING INTO HELL LIKE SNOWFLAKES. I WOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT IT ONLY TOOK “ONE SIN” TO SEND THE DEVIL TO HELL; IT ONLY TOOK ONE SIN FOR ADAM AND EVE TO BE THROWN OUT OF PARADISE. IT WILL ONLY TAKE ONE SIN TO SEND OUR SOUL TO HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!

Posted by Sheila Warner on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 1:03 PM (EDT):

Many of the comments here attack Jimmy for not delving further into the subject of ignorance. That was not the point of his article. He is talking about people who assume others are going to hell b/c of what they perceive is going on in another person’s soul. Only God can rightly determine that. And, Jimmy also points out that God is patient, working with each person to draw them into His required obedience. The fact that there are mortal sins is not disputed.

Posted by TG on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 12:32 PM (EDT):

I think Mother Angelica would have a problem with some of what you are saying Mr. Akin. I’ve watched her show when she spoke of hell and she had different views more “old school”. There’s a tint of modernism in this article.

Posted by Greg on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 12:23 PM (EDT):

People are smarter than we give them credit for. How many people have I talked to who are barely Christian but well know that living together before marriage is wrong. They will jokingly refer to it as “living in sin” but they well know that it is wrong but don’t care. Invincible ignorance hardly applies here. We don’t live in a country of idiots but people who choose to be willfully blinded.

Posted by charles harmett on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:57 AM (EDT):

Anne they clear out the pews because their heart is not in it. They are merely fulfilling an obligation. I like the latin mass also.

Posted by Michael on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:56 AM (EDT):

A good book to read on this is “Will Many Be Saved”. I think Jimmy needs to read it.

Michael

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:50 AM (EDT):

Charles, that’s funny about your son! Yes, it is sad to see how many people clear out of the pews after communion. If mass has started I don’t go. I got to a later mass. And I have never left before the priest finishes processing out of the church.

I will say that I also attend the extraordinary form (Latin) mass and you NEVER see people leaving after communion or coming in late in droves right before the gospel.

Posted by charles harmett on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:47 AM (EDT):

Anne, it was almost comical to these people heading out the side door. Like an NFL running back they would give a little shoulder fake to the left like they were going to sit down and then head out the door to the right. My son suggested that we go outside and block the door and I regret not having listened to him. He is a teenager and wanted to see something funny happen.

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:37 AM (EDT):

Charles, this is actually quite common and doesn’t really have much to do with age. It’s my understanding that it used to be taught that you were ok to be late for mass as long as you got there in time for the gospel and then you could technically leave after communion. I am not sure about the origins of that but that is what I was told by our RCIA instructor after several of us complained about it one evening in class. I believe it originated with the question of how late could you technically be for mass and if you absolutely had to leave mass early then what was the earliest you could leave. It would make sense that it’s older people because it was an old teaching (not really a teaching, but you know what I mean).

I believe some of the older crowd still follow that. It’s evident in our parish as well.

Posted by charles harmett on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:31 AM (EDT):

At my parish, there was an epidemic of people receiving communion and then heading out the side door as if they could not wait another 5 minutes for the mass to end. The people doing this were not young and should have known better. After months of this the head usher asked people in a nice way to stop doing this. his announcement greatly reduced the problem. People need to be told.

Posted by Thomas the Doubter on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 11:24 AM (EDT):

I don’t know Jimmy. I won’t comment on how many people living now go to Heaven or Hell since that is outside of my purview as it is outside the purview of all mortal men and is probably a topic better left undiscussed, even by popes. I will say that the excuse of ignorance is a bit flimsy. If one just says that “well our society encourages this type of behavior so I really don’t have a choice in the matter of my own sin” and all of these gain eternal life then tell me what need there was at the beginning to convert the Roman Empire? There was a society where every sort of abomination was encouraged and even demanded. If everybody just went to heaven because their society demanded that they sin so that made it ok, then why did the apostles travel dusty roads and storm tossed seas to a martyrs death preaching the Gospel openly and with no nuance the whole time? I think that we would be better off if we quit speculating on who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell and focus on preaching the assured way to salvation given us by Our Lord.

Posted by Heather on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:49 AM (EDT):

Another article enabling immoral behavior under the guise of “hope”. When was the last time real hope was given to those who stay the course? “Oh, yeah, you too, but public, unrepentant sinners get first dibs”. Very pastoral.

Posted by anon on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:44 AM (EDT):

How much time to we spend praying, reading the bible, helping others? How much time do we think about sports, money, sex, and power? We have been given many talents in this age and many ways to learn our faith. The ignorance card seems very hard to play.

I wonder if a lot of people will go to hell because they read the writings of Pope Benedict and presume that they are not so bad, and continue in grave sin, thinking that Pope Benedict says not too many people go to hell.

It is difficult to claim ignorance today as everything about the church is on the web. Sometimes people try to hid behind ignorance as a way of doing what they want, instead of doing what they are supposed to do. The “dog ate my homework” excuse.

Posted by james in colorado on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:23 AM (EDT):

Thank you Jimmy for your insights into this very timely topic. It helps me to not judge those who are committing objectively grave sins while doing my best to encourage Holy behavior. Jesus Loves each one of us and proves it by shedding His Preciuos Blood for us. Will He not also give each of us every oppotunity to “come to our senses and repent of our sin”?
We pray daily for our children who have left the Catholic faith and it does give us peace to know that God is Love and he has come to save us not condemn us.

Posted by mrscracker on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:22 AM (EDT):

Nathan ,
I’m old school Catholic & take the concept of Hell very seriously.I just don’t enjoy imagining who’s heading there or at what speed.

Posted by al on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:15 AM (EDT):

I never heard of an instance where Jesus ever forgave a sinner who was unrepentant of his sins, or that Jesus ever withheld forgiveness to a sinner who was repentant. This fits in perfectly with the Catholic dogma that the person who dies unrepentant of his mortal sins goes to hell.

Posted by Thomas on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:09 AM (EDT):

It may not be that helpful to think so much about who might be going to hell. On the other hand, the article neglects to mention the possibility of ignorance that is indirectly voluntary. Ignorance excuses insofar as it makes an act involuntary. Only involuntary ignorance excuses an act. Some ignorance is directly voluntary, but there is much ignorance that is indirectly voluntary on account of negligence, emotions, and bad habits. For a good discussion, see the Summa Theologiae, I-II, q. 6, art. 8. The catechism mentions knowledge as a requirement for mortal sin, but it does not mention what this means. There was until the last half-century a lot of discussion on the advertance. Nevertheless, it seems fairly clear that there is no such thing as completely involuntary ignorance of the substance of the ten commandments, and (among Catholics for a length of time) perhaps even the secondary precepts of the natural law.

Posted by carriekwi on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 10:03 AM (EDT):

Jimmy writes,
“We also should be careful in taking the pessimistic ones and applying them directly to our own age, because they were written in and about an age in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness and the knowledge of the true God and his Son was severely limited compared to today.”

This seems to actually contradict the point he is making. Wouldn’t an age where knowledge of Christ was more limited have a greater claim to invincible ignorance (and thus, the possibility of a greater number of souls saved)than an age where virtually everyone in this country knows the Gospel story, even if they do not believe in it?

Posted by Annie on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:47 AM (EDT):

As usual, another fantastic article. Thanks Jimmy!

I attend a parish which does not explicitly “speak out” against contraception and cohabitation, but it certainly isn’t promoted. I’ve been told the reason is because our priest is afraid of losing people.

I do believe that our clergy is neglectful in speaking out about certain topics. But how much of it is actually their responsibility? Are we not grown, adult Catholics responsible for learning about our own faith in addition to what we learned during catechism? Our faith SHOULD be a priority and not reduced to an mere obligation which must be fulfilled one day a week for an hour. The catechism and other church documents are out there for anyone and everyone to read. There’s even an app with the catechism and papal documents available for free.

Priests and religious walk a fine line when it comes to “calling out” people for their sins. Sure, they could certainly take a hellfire and brimstone approach, but you’d better believe the pews would start clearing out. I think this is the main fear for not speaking out more actively. I’m not saying this is right, but I do understand that point of view. I left the church for 15 years and came back when my live-in boyfriend and I decided to get married. I think if the priest sat there and berated us, I wouldn’t have come back and my husband would not have converted. Our priest approached the situation from a place of compassion while advising us what we already knew, that the way we had been living was wrong.

Polycarped, you are certainly not doing your child any favors by not advising him of mortal sins. As a parent it is your job to guide your child and raise him in the Catholic faith. You can’t pick and choose what you teach your child just because you want to “protect” his soul. At some point he will be a functioning member of society and you won’t be there to shield him from the truth. You can’t teach the faith to someone without being clear about the definition and very real consequence of mortal sin. And by withholding that information from your child, that puts your salvation at risk.

Give your children more credit. Yes, growing up in today’s society is difficult. Yes, it seems like Catholics are the minority fighting the moral battle against modern society. But teens are not stupid and they are not animals who have no control over their actions. A firm foundation in the faith and a good family which is committed to teaching that faith will help your child become stronger in fighting the battle.

Finally people, stop judging. Stop assuming. Take responsibility of your own faith and actions. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing, why someone only has two kids compared to your eight, etc. Judgment is reserved for one person alone, and looking down your nose at someone because you perceive them to be in a state of mortal sin is definitely NOT what Our Lord would want. Advising from a place of compassion and love, not arrogance, is the only way to bring back our brothers and sisters who have fallen away from the Church, and to get more people to come to the faith.

Thanks Jimmy for a great article.

Posted by Nathan on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:40 AM (EDT):

@mrscracker - I too hope all are saved and derive no satisfaction or joy in believing Christ when He tells us many are damned. However, we cannot base what we believe to be true based off what we’d like to be true or what makes us happy. I’d like to believe I have a million dollars in the bank and it sure would make me happy if it were so, but I don’t believe I have a million dollars in the bank because It isn’t true. In much the same way, I hope all are saved will recognizing that most are probably damned. No one wanted all to be saved more than Christ and no one was clearer that many will go to Hell while only a few will be saved. What can we do “seek to enter in through the narrow gate.”

Posted by Nathan on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:34 AM (EDT):

If Mr Akin is right, let’s call off the New Evangelization immediately - why should we Catholics invest our limited time and treasure evangelizing the saved? In fact, we cannot bring the good news to the saved, as there is no good news to bring them precisely because they are already saved! As a matter of fact, if Mr Akin is right, evangelizing our neighbors will only make their lives more difficult. Of course, as Mr Akin knows, paragraph 1860 of the CCC immediately goes on to say “NO ONE IS DEEMED IGNORANT OF THE PRINCIPALS OF THE MORAL LAW” but Mr Akin cut his citation short to better prove his point.

Posted by mrscracker on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:29 AM (EDT):

I personally hope there is noone in Hell.I really don’t understand the satisfaction some folk derive from imagining how many souls end up there.

Posted by charles harmett on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:25 AM (EDT):

All adult catholics know that they are supposed to go to mass on Sunday. ALL! Under normal circumstances, there are no excuses. None!

Posted by K C Thomas on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:24 AM (EDT):

Akin correctly analysed the issue. That is just theory. But practically, even the non Christians know that abortion, infidelity etc. are not something fully acceptable. They have a prick of the conscience. As far as Catholics are concerned , we have fulltime teachers in the PRIESTS and the BISHOPS. It is their primary duty. However we do not hear even a sermon on Sundays about sins and about ten commandments and some details. For example, why it is not loudly said from the pulpit that cohabitation before marriage is SIN ? As a result the Catholics have become fully ignorant. The parents are equally responsible. But parents go after money and pleasures and have no time to learn religion or teach children. That is why Popes wanted a re evangelization in Europe and America. Previously European priests went to Asia and preached the Gospel. Now Asians are coming to preach Gospel to Europeans and Americans. may God bless us

Posted by Nathan on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:23 AM (EDT):

Nice article, although I would have liked to see Mr Akin make a clearer distinction between ignorance, which doesn’t get us off the hook so to speak, and invincible ignorance, which does. The moral law is written on the hearts on man and we cannot plead ignorance to many evils. Mr Akin warns the reader to not apply Christ’s warnings about the many who will go to Hell to our society today because those warnings were addressed to an ignorant time, yet many will be saved today precisely because we live in an ignorant time. Contradiction? You tell me.

Posted by Taylor on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:15 AM (EDT):

“We also should be careful in taking the pessimistic ones and applying them directly to our own age, because they were written in and about an age in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness and the knowledge of the true God and his Son was severely limited compared to today.”

But Jimmy, this is true today—the later part especially so among Catholics themselves!

Posted by Dorothy on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:08 AM (EDT):

We certainly should not assume anyone is in mortal sin because we do not know whether or not they meet the three qualifications for being in that position, and we also should remember that those who have not committed sexual sins have, no doubt, committed other mortal sins, from greed, envy, slander, libel and the like (often toward their fellow Christians). BUT what Jimmy says sounds like a great out: “society made me do it…how could I know it was wrong? everyone does it, even my parents,” etc. If ignorance is our excuse, let’s not inform anyone. Thus the path to heaven seems to be knowing as little as possible.

Posted by Verbum Journal on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:05 AM (EDT):

Mr. Akin would pass any review by a Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church on this post. It is clear, uses Church Teachings and is faithful to the Magisterium. Wherein their is opinion it is clearly seen as such. But what if Mr. Akin were wrong? Would it not be better to point out where it is wrong in a manner full of love and charity - which Christ asks all of us to do?

Posted by charles harmett on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:03 AM (EDT):

Have you ever been to church on Christmas or Easter. All of a sudden the church is packed with well dressed people who don’t go to mass the rest of the year but have the audacity to then go up and receive Holy Communion! These are perfect days fpr the priest to tell these individuals NO, do not receive if you are missing mass 50 weeks a year. Yet we never hear a word.

Posted by robert waligora on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 9:02 AM (EDT):

I don’t agree with your post Jimmy…..its because of not correcting politicians who openly flaunt Catholic teachings by going against them, the Catholics just do and believe what they want. Taking birth control, it doesn’t matter…come up and get Communion. Having sexual relations with a member of the samesex depravity, it doesn’t matter..come up and receive Communion also….and the list goes on. The Shepherds have let one do as they please since Vatican 11 and the results are alarming…Catholic Churches and schools shut down because you can believe whatever your mind tells you and catholics left the TRUE Church in droves, because today its BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WISH ITS ALRIGHT AND WE ARE ALL OK. Didn’t the Blessed Mother say at Fatima or another apparition that “SOULS FALL INTO HELL LIKE SNOWFLAKES…AND MANY CLERGY ARE THERE”..or words to that effect. The Catholic Church needs a St. John the Baptist, one who doesn’t mince words and calls out Sin and Evil-doers for what they are. The Church is rotting from within from the cancer of sin..all because one refuses to call sin out in a person, all because one gets labeled as intolerant.

Posted by Matt on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:17 AM (EDT):

If the moral law is written on the hearts of all men, then can one who uses contraception, for example, say “I didn’t know.” “I didn’t have full knowledge.”

Posted by Gene on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 7:04 AM (EDT):

Jimmy, I wish you would have included the rest of # 1860 “But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.”
You left out # 1791 “This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”

God gives everyone the grace to come to the knowledge of the truth and it seems that people today take little time to find the truth and are therefore culpable for their ignorance.

You mentioned the Old Testament and how people live in a pagan world. Surely they would have been invincibly ignorant YET Jude 1:7 tells us that those who were immoral in Sodom and Gomorrah are “Undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”
What excuse can we possibly have if they are in hell?

Posted by polycarped on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 6:49 AM (EDT):

Worried about the immense difficulty of getting young people especially to understand the reality of sin in today’s world, I once commented to a friend that, given those pressures, perhaps it might be better if I didn’t instruct my teenage child on what did or didn’t constitute a mortal sin. That way, it would be almost impossible for the 3 criteria to be met and therefore present less danger to their immortal soul. What do you think of that idea, Jimmy? On your point about God’s patience, this is of course absolutely true but surely we should always play it safe and assume that today might be our last?

Posted by Shin on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 5:12 AM (EDT):

For consideration. . .

Matthew 7:13-14. Galatians 5:19-21.

‘There are many who arrive at the faith, but few that are led into the heavenly kingdom.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great

There isn’t an middle view on this matter in Holy Scripture.. nor is this an age that is one of moral virtue..

Nor in the writings of the saints and doctors of the Church is there any balance of a group on one side and then the other of whether the saved are few . . . The overwhelming consensus is. . as St. Leonard of Port Maurice in his famous sermon noted. . . and even the most recent St. John Neumann said:

‘Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.’

.. If only people would listen more to the saints.. Putting aside all preconceptions and sitting at their feet, rather than a presumptuous judging above. Then we could have an appreciation of the true spiritual reality to work from, rather than preferences, opinions, etc. Especially about matters of such priceless importance.

This isn’t a cause for loss of interior peace of God—what is? but rather, a matter of the necessity to truly embrace Christ and do what Christ calls us to do.

Which is more than just enter into the Church in name, and lead people to that, but to become Christian in its so much neglected and forgotten entirety.

Posted by Theophilus2 on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 4:33 AM (EDT):

Well written and thanks. Yesterday I was speaking with a Unitarian, recounting the words of my Bishop at a recent lecture and trying to explain the Mystery of the Holy Trinity. As we were walking she changed the subject to Heaven & Hell. She said “surely God wouldn’t send one to Hell for…” I said “it’s not so much he ‘sends us’, for He desires all be saved… but He doesn’t force us into Heaven”. I Pray the Father opens her heart & soon.
All things in Christ!

Posted by Heather on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:45 AM (EDT):

I can buy that people have been poorly taught church teaching over the past 40 years.
So that is why there are homilies every Sunday to continue guiding us poorly taught adult Catholics, correct?

When is the last time anyone heard a homily where the priest clearly said “it is a mortal sin to -insert issue-”?
I go to a parish that could be the one described by the article.

So, will the priests be damned to hell for failing to guide us?

Posted by Shin on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 3:26 AM (EDT):

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

That is the full 1860. In the article above the first part is quoted, the last part is quoted, but what is not quoted is:

‘But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.’

Posted by Robert Hill on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 2:30 AM (EDT):

Skygore, I think you believe as I do that God’s will can’t be thwarted. Nevertheless, we have free will and can, like the gunman apparently did, choose hell.

Jimmy, it looks bleak if you consider that ignorance is not invincible if it is negligent. If I know myriad accounting rules or sports stats but not my faith, I have no excuse for not knowing that adultery of the eyes, contraception, etc. are sinful. My real sin is not caring enough about my faith to read a single book—not the bible, not the catechism, not Kreeft, not Madrid, not Akin. Too busy watching Hollywood, filling my mind with pagan ideas. If I’m a teenage boy raised by drunks, my ignorance is probably invincible; if I’m a middle-aged “Catholic” attorney, it’s hard to come up with any excuse for my ignorance. If I worship Mammon and Hedon, my weekly or sporadic “Lord, Lords” won’t be enough.

How many Catholics went to Confession since Easter? How many watched the basketball finals? How many have walked in a right-to-life march? How many have gone to a baseball game?

Bleak. We need to pray very hard and speak up lest our brothers (or we ourselves) reach senility or death without repenting.

Posted by Skygor on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 1:06 AM (EDT):

Story I use for my Religious Ed class.

“Let’s say a gunman enters this classroom and holds it hostage. As a bargaining ploy he’ll execute one person for his demands and let the rest go free. Now was too many, too little, or just the right amount of people killed?”

“So how many people go to hell? Too many? Too little? Or the right amount?”

Posted by J. Francis on Friday, Jun 21, 2013 12:29 AM (EDT):

@“Bishop Where?”: While you are clearly have good intentions, you fundamental misread this blog post and misunderstand Catholic doctrine. If, as you absurdly demand, bishops reviewed blog posts and granted/denied them imprimaturs, this post would pass with flying colors. As usual, Jimmy has carefully documented his claims about Church teaching, made clear matters that are his own conclusions from Church teaching, and been careful to deal with the semantic issues. Your comment shows that you little understood the post.

E.g., “Abortion is murder and always a mortal sin.” You have totally missed the distinction that the Church makes between grave matter and mortal sin (keeping in mind the “shorthand” of using the term mortal sin for grave matter; Jimmy carefully explained all of this). Abortion is always grave matter—no one is denying that. An individual abortion is NOT a mortal sin unless ALL conditions for mortal sin are met. If you say that an abortion is a mortal sin when sufficient knowledge or consent are lacking, then you are a dissenter from Church teaching.

E.g., “Where is the message of purgation in the flames of Purgatory? Surely that is part of the process of salvation, yet there is no reference to it here.” This claim shows that you didn’t bother to read very carefully before posting false accusations.

I suggest you spend a few years reading and re-reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church (7 times through should do it) before you accuse anyone else of doctrinal error.

Posted by Will on Thursday, Jun 20, 2013 11:53 PM (EDT):

What about folks who suffer from addictions of one sort or another? You have your typical alcohol and drugs, but today pornography is rapidly becoming an addiction. Is one’s culpability diminished if one is truly addicted?

Posted by Bishop Where? on Thursday, Jun 20, 2013 11:35 PM (EDT):

I would strongly urge the editors of National Catholic Register and all readers of this blog to direct any questions about this article and other articles by this author. There is great value in having the IMPRIMATUR to verify The Church’s teaching. This article is a bit off, as is the one about poking Protestants in the eye. There’s some good stuff and some great liberties taken to make our faith more palatable to outsiders. Abortion is murder and always a mortal sin. There are no degrees of qualification. Where is the message of purgation in the flames of Purgatory? Surely that is part of the process of salvation, yet there is no reference to it here. The Intercession of Our Lady is also key. And the Church of Rome is the ONE TRUE CHURCH and as my Baltimore Catechism taught me in my younger days everyone who would be saved MUST belong to it in some way. I urge, plead that a BISHOP review all blog postings. Rather than clarify and educate, it’s only bringing more error and confusion. When it comes to matters of eternity, there is nothing more important than getting it right the first time. And this article and blog fails to offer TRUTH as the Roman Catholic Church proclaims.

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About Jimmy Akin

Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant pastor or seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith. Eventually, he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is a Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to This Rock magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."