I can't believe we would actually consider re-signing him. If we lose Mags and Jose that should free up enough $ to offer Renteria...

GO SOX GO

Win1ForMe

08-06-2004, 12:36 PM

Renteria has not had a great season this year and some team will probably overpay to sign him, so I would stay away from him. Jose is still a decent player, but when offering him money, the GM should also keep in mind that he'll need to shell out additional cash for a serviceable right-handed backup that could hit lefties. This is especially true of our team, as with Harris (or even Alomar next season) you need TWO backups that could do the job.

samram

08-06-2004, 12:39 PM

Renteria has not had a great season this year and some team will probably overpay to sign him, so I would stay away from him. Jose is still a decent player, but when offering him money, the GM should also keep in mind that he'll need to shell out additional cash for a serviceable right-handed backup that could hit lefties. This is especially true of our team, as with Harris (or even Alomar next season) you need TWO backups that could do the job.
If the Sox can get Christian Guzman, who will be cheaper than Renterria, Jose should be gone.

BoKnowsSox

08-06-2004, 12:42 PM

Valentin has done nothing this season to deserve being resigned.

Mots09

08-06-2004, 12:43 PM

Let's hope we do soemthing like that. I am sick of seeing my shortstop make horrible plays in the field, and then come in and K. He is on track for more than 100 K's this year :angry:

GO SOX GO

Win1ForMe

08-06-2004, 12:51 PM

Jose splits vs RHP this year and last year:

2003 - .265/.345/.535
2004 - .261/.324/.604

Pretty similar, and those are right after a horrendous month. Still, his OBP and BB are declining. I wouldn't give him anything more than $3M for next season.

kitekrazy

08-06-2004, 01:06 PM

Well there was a team willing to overpay Jose. Unfortunately it was the White Sox.

Jose is like reading the same book over and over. It's time for a "He gone."

bobj4400

08-06-2004, 01:17 PM

If we offer Valenin more than 1 million for 1 year, I will not root for them next year. He is everything that is wrong with this team. Homerun or nothing and terrible defensively. There is your 2004 White Sox people.

JDP

08-06-2004, 01:19 PM

If we offer Valenin more than 1 million for 1 year, I will not root for them next year. He is everything that is wrong with this team. Homerun or nothing and terrible defensively. There is your 2004 White Sox people.
The Sox could shore up their left side of the infield next year by pillaging from the Twinkies: Koskie and Guzman. Sure, neither will be worth what they'll probably ask, but the Sox could always sign Koskie, Guzman and Radke and trot those three out against Minnesota 19 times a year!

mcfish

08-06-2004, 01:20 PM

Let's hope we do soemthing like that. I am sick of seeing my shortstop make horrible plays in the field, and then come in and K. He is on track for more than 100 K's this year :angry:

GO SOX GOHe already has the 100 K's. He's looking way beyond that for this season. If he hadn't gotten hurt, who knows how many times he could have struck out.

CHISOXFAN13

08-06-2004, 01:29 PM

I can't believe we would actually consider re-signing him. If we lose Mags and Jose that should free up enough $ to offer Renteria...

GO SOX GO

Id really be surprised if St. Louis doesn't re-sign Renteria.

JB98

08-06-2004, 01:35 PM

The Sox could shore up their left side of the infield next year by pillaging from the Twinkies: Koskie and Guzman. Sure, neither will be worth what they'll probably ask, but the Sox could always sign Koskie, Guzman and Radke and trot those three out against Minnesota 19 times a year!
Yes on Guzman, no on Koskie and Radke. Koskie's been hitting in the 240s all year, and he is oft-injured. Radke always looks good vs. the Sox, but he's a .500 pitcher otherwise. A few years ago, the Cubs started acquiring all these guys who played well against them (ahem...Jeff Blauser), and the strategy backfired miserably. You have to guard against that type of thinking. There is no reason not to pursue Guzman though. He has speed, his glove is decent, his batting average is decent and he'd come reasonably priced.

JDP

08-06-2004, 01:58 PM

Yes on Guzman, no on Koskie and Radke. Koskie's been hitting in the 240s all year, and he is oft-injured. Radke always looks good vs. the Sox, but he's a .500 pitcher otherwise. A few years ago, the Cubs started acquiring all these guys who played well against them (ahem...Jeff Blauser), and the strategy backfired miserably. You have to guard against that type of thinking. There is no reason not to pursue Guzman though. He has speed, his glove is decent, his batting average is decent and he'd come reasonably priced.
Slow down tiger, 'twas merely light-hearted banter, not an organizational mission statement. :smile:

beck72

08-06-2004, 02:18 PM

Id really be surprised if St. Louis doesn't re-sign Renteria.
STL has huge contracts w/ Rolen, Pujols, Edmonds. Both Woody Williams and Matt Morris are FA's as well. My guess is they'd shore up their pitching. Renteria would likely be out of the picture

I_Liked_Manuel

08-06-2004, 02:44 PM

24 worthless home runs and counting......

OurBitchinMinny

08-06-2004, 03:04 PM

The Sox could shore up their left side of the infield next year by pillaging from the Twinkies: Koskie and Guzman. Sure, neither will be worth what they'll probably ask, but the Sox could always sign Koskie, Guzman and Radke and trot those three out against Minnesota 19 times a year!
Id take guzman even though he is lackadasickal sometimes. Koskie is basically having the same type of year as crede, but is more injury prone. Neither does a whole lot for me, but anything is better than watching jose hit .220. I like the HRs and he has decent rbi #s, but is not worth what he is gonna want

Win1ForMe

08-06-2004, 03:06 PM

If the Sox can get Christian Guzman, who will be cheaper than Renterria, Jose should be gone.
To tell you the truth, I don't think Christian Guzman is really that good. His OBP sucks and he's got Willie Harris speed (i.e. speed you can't use) becuase he's a bad base-stealer.

His AVG/OBP last 3 years:
.273/.292
.268/.311
.287/.315

I'm betting he'll demand more than he's worth.

samram

08-06-2004, 03:50 PM

To tell you the truth, I don't think Christian Guzman is really that good. His OBP sucks and he's got Willie Harris speed (i.e. speed you can't use) becuase he's a bad base-stealer.

His AVG/OBP last 3 years:
.273/.292
.268/.311
.287/.315

I'm betting he'll demand more than he's worth.
They all do, don't they?:D: Those numbers don't look to great, but he is a good defensive player, and it would be really nice to have a plus defender at SS for once. Don't get me wrong, Renteria is better, but he will be far more expensive. There could also be players available in trade who we don't know are available yet. I'm just sick of Jose.

mcfish

08-06-2004, 03:52 PM

24 worthless home runs and counting......I have been against saying anything positive about Jose since I noticed he was batting sub .245, but that's just stupid. How many 3 run HR's does Jose have? What about the solo shot in Oakland that sent it to extra innings? Most importantly, yesterday's HR was the start of one of the best offensive innings by the Sox in a long time, which actually gave them a chance to come back. What did you want him to do? Hit the 6 run HR right there and be done with it? Just because a home run comes in a losing effort doesn't make it worthless.

JRIG

08-06-2004, 03:56 PM

They all do, don't they?:D: Those numbers don't look to great, but he is a good defensive player, and it would be really nice to have a plus defender at SS for once. Don't get me wrong, Renteria is better, but he will be far more expensive. There could also be players available in trade who we don't know are available yet. I'm just sick of Jose.
I've always been very, very unimpressed with Guzman's defense, but maybe that's just me. I think he has RoyceClayton range (That's not a compliment).

owensmouth

08-06-2004, 04:08 PM

The team has to make money in order to "free it up". Delete Magglio and Jose from the team, along with one or two others, and the team may not be able to keep those it already has

wdelaney72

08-06-2004, 04:19 PM

How about all of the strike outs leading up to his home runs.
1) His BA sucks. He's becoming an automatic out.
2) His defense sucks - and yes it has affected the outcome of multiple games

I want him GONE!

I have been against saying anything positive about Jose since I noticed he was batting sub .245, but that's just stupid. How many 3 run HR's does Jose have? What about the solo shot in Oakland that sent it to extra innings? Most importantly, yesterday's HR was the start of one of the best offensive innings by the Sox in a long time, which actually gave them a chance to come back. What did you want him to do? Hit the 6 run HR right there and be done with it? Just because a home run comes in a losing effort doesn't make it worthless.

samram

08-06-2004, 04:33 PM

I've always been very, very unimpressed with Guzman's defense, but maybe that's just me. I think he has RoyceClayton range (That's not a compliment).
Ok, so what would you do about the SS spot? Signing Nomar is out of the question, Renteria would be great, but we're not sure how much payroll will increase, if it does at all. I think Guzman may be the best the Sox can do, given payroll constraints. As for his range, it could be affected by the speed at which balls get through the infield in the dome, resulting in relatively fewer fielding chances, which makes his range look worse than it may actually be. I'm not sure, but he has been playing a pivotal position on a team that will likely win its third straight division title.

JRIG

08-06-2004, 04:41 PM

Ok, so what would you do about the SS spot? Signing Nomar is out of the question, Renteria would be great, but we're not sure how much payroll will increase, if it does at all. I think Guzman may be the best the Sox can do, given payroll constraints. As for his range, it could be affected by the speed at which balls get through the infield in the dome, resulting in relatively fewer fielding chances, which makes his range look worse than it may actually be. I'm not sure, but he has been playing a pivotal position on a team that will likely win its third straight division title.
Honestly? Re-sign Valentin for $2-2.5 million and find a moderately effective platoon partner for him so he never sees the light of day against LHP. His number against RHP this year are still very strong -- .261/.324/.604.

mcfish

08-06-2004, 04:51 PM

How about all of the strike outs leading up to his home runs.
1) His BA sucks. He's becoming an automatic out.
2) His defense sucks - and yes it has affected the outcome of multiple games

I want him GONE!I completely agree, but to say that all 24 of his home runs were meaningless is not correct.

samram

08-06-2004, 05:03 PM

Honestly? Re-sign Valentin for $2-2.5 million and find a moderately effective platoon partner for him so he never sees the light of day against LHP. His number against RHP this year are still very strong -- .261/.324/.604.
Ok, but why not get someone better defensively who isn't decidedly worse against either righties or lefties? I mean, isn't Uribe is the type of platoon player you can find if you don't say the starting SS is theirs.

DumpJerry

08-06-2004, 05:09 PM

Here is my contract offer to Jose:

2005 Salary: $5,000,000
You pay the Sox $25,000 for each strikeout you make.
You pay the Sox $30,000 for each error you commit on the field in a game in which we win.
You pay the Sox $40,000 for each error you commit on the field in a game in which we lose.
You pay the the Sox $100,000 for each error you commit on the field and we lose the game by a margin that could have been avoided if you did not commit the error.

He will probably owe the Sox enough money by the All-Star break to let KW sign Bonds and Nomar.

This is what they call an "incentive laden" contract. Trust me. I'm a lawyer.:cool:

JRIG

08-06-2004, 05:24 PM

Ok, but why not get someone better defensively who isn't decidedly worse against either righties or lefties? I mean, isn't Uribe is the type of platoon player you can find if you don't say the starting SS is theirs.
I don't want to start a huge debate, but I think Jose is at least adequate defensively. I just don't think for $3.5 million -- or what ever it would take to get Jose and a platoon partner -- you can find a guy who would be better defensively and offensively than Jose. And if you offer me the choice of Jose's offensive numbers against RHP (which we'll face a majority of the time) or a slightly better defensive player, I'll take Jose and a platoon partner.

Win1ForMe

08-06-2004, 05:29 PM

Honestly? Re-sign Valentin for $2-2.5 million and find a moderately effective platoon partner for him so he never sees the light of day against LHP. His number against RHP this year are still very strong -- .261/.324/.604.
Yeah, this would probably the best course to take. Now that I think about it, maybe they could potentially platoon him with Valdez (acquired from Florida). I know he doesn't walk much, but if he could hit .280-.300 next year in a platoon role, that would be good enough for me, especially at $350 K.

sendimjoey

08-06-2004, 06:22 PM

Honestly? Re-sign Valentin for $2-2.5 million and find a moderately effective platoon partner for him so he never sees the light of day against LHP. His number against RHP this year are still very strong -- .261/.324/.604.
Yes, and we have that player -- his name is Juan Uribe, although, inexplicably, he's been horrible against left-handed pitching this season -- .195/.246/.389 versus .291/.348/.483 against righties. For 2001-2003, he was .271/.309/.405 against lefties and .254/.295/.409 versus righties. I'd expect something closer to those career figures than the huge splits he has this year.

So, assuming 2/3 Valentin + 1/3 Uribe = one shortstop, and using Uribe's three-year totals, that comes out to .264/.319/.531. We could live with that platoon at shortstop for $4 million or so.

Also, Valentin has had two bad stretches defensively, including recently, but otherwise, he's been excellent this year. He had a stretch of about 50 games with just two errors. His mistakes recently have been magnified by the Sox playing poorly as a team and playing so many close games. Lay off Jose.

JRIG

08-06-2004, 06:26 PM

Yes, and we have that player -- his name is Juan Uribe, although, inexplicably, he's been horrible against left-handed pitching this season -- .195/.246/.389 versus .291/.348/.483 against righties. For 2001-2003, he was .271/.309/.405 against lefties and .254/.295/.409 versus righties. I'd expect something closer to those career figures than the huge splits he has this year.

So, assuming 2/3 Valentin + 1/3 Uribe = one shortstop, and using Uribe's three-year totals, that comes out to .264/.319/.531. We could live with that platoon at shortstop for $4 million or so.

Also, Valentin has had two bad stretches defensively, including recently, but otherwise, he's been excellent this year. He had a stretch of about 50 games with just two errors. His mistakes recently have been magnified by the Sox playing poorly as a team and playing so many close games. Lay off Jose.
Good post. Yeah, I could live with a Valentin/Uribe platoon at SS, but that means it's that much more important to have a 2B who can actually contribute next year. Trotting Willie Harris out there against LHP is no better than having Valentin play every game against them.

sendimjoey

08-06-2004, 09:43 PM

JRIG, thanks, and I agree about Harris. He has been solid against righties (.281/.382/.335) this year. I'd also say that it's important to get more out of the catcher position. Davis may turn out to be a decent left-handed hitting catcher, but he would definitely need a right-handed hitting platoon partner, and I don't mean Sandy Alomar Jr., who should be a roving instructor for the Sox next year, or start managing in the minors. Depends on what Davis wants to get paid, of course.

Oh, and last year, Jose Valentin had more defensive Win Shares than any other AL shortstop.

JRIG

08-06-2004, 09:47 PM

Oh, and last year, Jose Valentin had more defensive Win Shares than any other AL shortstop.I know, but nobody seems to care because he makes errors occasionally. You know what? Juan Uribe makes errors too. Everybody does.

Edit: Even 12-time Gold Glove award winners make errors.

sendimjoey

08-06-2004, 10:01 PM

Edit: Even 12-time Gold Glove award winners make errors.

LOL. I was just thinking the same thing. Glad to see him back, but not nearly as pumped about it as I was last year.

Where was I? Oh, I remember. Uribe makes errors, yes, but he is not getting paid $4 million to do so. So far, it seems to me that we can play Uribe for almost nothing next year and use the money we save off Valentin for Maggs. Its a much better alternative than keeping an aging SS that has seen his better days pass by already.

Deuce

DannyCaterFan

08-06-2004, 11:19 PM

:angry: Jose......He Gone !!! and so should most of this team by opening day next year.

Viva Magglio

08-06-2004, 11:22 PM

:angry: Jose......He Gone !!! and so should most of this team by opening day next year.
If the Cubs fail to re-sign Garciaparra, they should sign Jose Valentin-E.

HomeFish

08-07-2004, 12:00 AM

24 worthless home runs and counting......

In his career, maybe. Certainly not in this season.

I can understand why you would want to be negative in these times, but saying that about Jose is simply going too far. He consistently hits walk-offs and game-tying homeruns. I have personally witnessed him doing that almost half a dozen times this season.