I can't remember when the Pats have been affected this much by injuries, especially at key positions- at least during the golden age that has been the last dozen years or so.

Over the years, I have watched other NFL teams get decimated (sp?) by injuries and thought to myself, "that team has a legitimate excuse to play poorly."

At some point, even with "capable" back-ups, the play on the field is going to decline. Do you guys share this attitude? Does anyone else feel like injuries, at least when numerous enough, can justify poor play? Or is this something that grown men are just expected to overcome?

It's not just the Pats with Injuries mounting it's the whole league. I saw a stat yesterday about the number of torn ACL's in the NFL this year, there where 32 players that suffered torn ACL's last year. 33 players have suffered torn ACL's this year half way through the league year, If tommy Kelly has a torn ACL that will make 34.

Wilfork wasn't playing well, Kelly has been out for a few weeks, Soap and Jones are reasonable facsimiles. Who knows about Armstead. He might make it back, although it seems like a long shot at this point. Vellano and Forston are useful. There are two PS guys, Sealver and Francis that might be needed

I'd be more concerned if Talib was gone, but he's not. I think they can piece it together on the DL.

I think it safe to assume an overall decline in play when a defense, any defense, loses 3 starters for the year and another out until who knows when. Yes, we can say next man up and they need to step up, but I find it hard to believe 4 guys stepping up can keep the defense running top 5.

From my point of view mayo is the biggest lss, unless Talib is lost. We have got by pretty well with jones and vellano. I just don't think spikes, Hightower nor Collins is anywhere near mayo In terms of talent. The bigger drop off would be from Talib to Arrington, cole or Ryan, although Ryan has been playing very well He is still no Talib.

When you lose a Wilfork, Mayo, Kelly, Talib, etc. that cannot be overcome. Of course it's a valid excuse for declining play on the field. It's silly to think that with all of those injuries the Patriots won't miss a beat.

The Patriots' only saving grace is that injuries are happening to every other team as well. That and they still have Belichick and Brady.

When you lose a Wilfork, Mayo, Kelly, Talib, etc. that cannot be overcome. Of course it's a valid excuse for declining play on the field. It's silly to think that with all of those injuries the Patriots won't miss a beat.

The Patriots' only saving grace is that injuries are happening to every other team as well. That and they still have Belichick and Brady.

Of course it can be overcome! If you think the season is over, I don't know what to say. It isn't. They will still win the East, rather easily actually and then once the playoffs start, anything can happen. Guys stepping up is nothing new.

The offense is relatively healthy and getting better, so if the D declines a tad, the O will have to score a few more points.

The name of the game this year, and probably for the rest of the decade until the NFL commish grows half a brain and stops it, is depth. Everybody in the NFL is getting injured.

Every team that shows up in Foxboro, and that certainly includes what's left of the Pittsburgh Steelers, is missing something important. In the Steelers' case they're out looking for something resembling an offensive line. Two guys went on IR. They had one supersub, DeCastro, and now he's out too. Chandler Jones is going to line up against reportedly the most incompetent one of the bunch. The Steelers could also use a defensive line.

The Pats could have used their defensive starters if a miracle faith healer or even a shaman could pull that off, but the team also took steps to add depth all over. They added Armond Armstead in the offseason. OK, he's not on the field either, but that happens. They picked through the rest of the league's leftovers on September 2 and came up with Houston's reject, which is better than nothing. Now they've picked up Soap at a bargain basement price. Soap can't chase quarterbacks and he can't tackle anybody, but at least as a nose tackle he can hold the point (actually somebody in the Philly media said he couldn't even do that this fall, which explains why he came so cheap).

BB and the front office stashes extra people to get them around the 53 man limit in September.

--There's usually one or more good players who are free agents, who show up early in Foxboro to learn the system, who get cut, who drop through waivers and who sit at home until November.

--There are usually two or more players on the PUP list, some of whom aren't actually injured but who is checking up on their medical claims?

--BB picks up ok players who get bumped out in some team's numbers game.

--All sorts of projects get stashed onto the practice squad, no good immediately but ready to play in maybe eight weeks.

--BB regularly picks up seven players a season and discards six within a week of their initial signings. One of them is a find.

--Then there's the mid-season trade route. Aqib Talib was a complete messup at Tampa Bay. Everybody on this board complained that he was a waste of a fourth round pick, but things worked out pretty well. Soap might get tossed in a week, but we'll see.

If the commish wants to shut down the dive for your knees play, he needs to institute some kind of "you break it, you bought it" system. If an opponent's player goes out even under questionable circumstances, one of your draft picks goes over to your opponent. Prices double in divisional rivalry games and in the playoffs, and of course quarterbacks are more expensive. Your coach had better really want to break some guy's knees in such a system.

Sure it hurts to lose good players, but I doubt anyone is making excuses. One thing BB does extremely well is make adjustments in scheme and player mix to compensate for the loss of a good player. With Mayo and Wilfork out, Spikes is playing a bigger role than he did early in the season, attacking the LOS almost like another lineman. Last week, we started using more 3-4 to get additional LBs on the field. Those kind of adjustments change the defense, so you're not just subbing in an inferior player for a superior player. Instead, you're mixing things up to create a new defense that works well with the players you have.

Vince has been out for so long I feel he hasn't even played this year.

Pats D is actually better suited from the injuries in the sack department, while they have taken an equal yet negative step backwards in run support from the injuries. However, they got a mammoth in Soap coming in. 6'2 330

If Soap can be a better clogger on the line than Kelly - even if not as good as Wilfork, then we are actually ok with the loss of Kelly. Jones has stepped up as a solid interior Pass Rusher(5 Sacks), which is why we all wanted Kelly(2.5 sacks).

Everything STILL hinges on Talib. Logan Ryan has gotten more reps and is becoming a playmaker. IF our secondary stays healthy, they are one of the best in the league IMO.

We have won games with defense this year mostly. It could be argued the D will only improve as Kelly nor Vince has been there for long, and they weathered the storm of the latest lost of Mayo with Dane Fletcher getting more coverage reps.

Lets look at the line up.

Gregory/Harmon McCourty

Dennard Arrington/Ryan Talib/Ryan

Fletcher/Collins Spikes Hightower

Jones Jones/Armstead Soap/Vellano Nink

I still see tons of talent out there. Vince was the biggest loss but that was a long time ago, and they had no one on the roster that could plug a hole. Soap is actually an upgrade in the run game on the d line over anything Pats currently have, even if not all pro caliber. The loss of Mayo while killing at first has improved over the last 2 weeks. I feel Fletcher was our best cover backer, but Mayo had the best communication. Let players play to their strengths, and hopefully communication will improve with more play time.

They are weathering the storm and their best piece on the D should be able to play after the bye, well i am hoping at least.

Just heard pat kirwan and jimmy miller talking about the unusual rash of injuries this year. Wish I rememberedthe number but the number of IRed players is up like 30% from last year. Ithink they said 12 starting qbs out for this sundays games?

Just heard pat kirwan and jimmy miller talking about the unusual rash of injuries this year. Wish I rememberedthe number but the number of IRed players is up like 30% from last year. Ithink they said 12 starting qbs out for this sundays games?

Of course it can be overcome! If you think the season is over, I don't know what to say. It isn't. They will still win the East, rather easily actually and then once the playoffs start, anything can happen. Guys stepping up is nothing new.

The offense is relatively healthy and getting better, so if the D declines a tad, the O will have to score a few more points.

I didn't mean to sound so dour. I'm usually the eternal optimist when it comes to the Patriots but I was initially irked a bit by the question in the OP that declining play might not be excused because of the rash of injuries.

And yes, the offense will need to score more points and I think it will.

Be interesting to see if the injuries acrosse the league are more on one side of the ball. In the Pats case it is mostly on the D. I'm also wondering if the injuries have any connection to the new training camp regimens imposed by the CBA.

Of course it can be overcome! If you think the season is over, I don't know what to say. It isn't. They will still win the East, rather easily actually and then once the playoffs start, anything can happen. Guys stepping up is nothing new.

The offense is relatively healthy and getting better, so if the D declines a tad, the O will have to score a few more points.

I didn't mean to sound so dour. I'm usually the eternal optimist when it comes to the Patriots but I was initially irked a bit by the question in the OP that declining play might not be excused because of the rash of injuries.

And yes, the offense will need to score more points and I think it will.

I noticed that in the OP as well - the "declining play" stuff. Actually that's somewhat trollish, because I'm not sure there's actually been a decline at all. They're still winning, with the exception of the Jets game which was just an odd game with a pick 6 and the FG penalty and assorted other strange. That game was abnormal.

The defense was solid against Miami and while it would be nice to have everybody healthy, that's just not realistic. Baltimore had injuries last year and had guys step up.

I think the increase is probably the results of several factors. The new rule change about the number of full practices, these guys were all using ped's and are now trying to clean up and probably the most significant is unless they change the rule about launching yourself to get a player down the human body has not developed enough to keep up with the speed at which these guys are playing at. I keep wondering about 2008 where Brady did not see a single snap during pre season and goes out in gets injured in the very first game.

Of course it can be overcome! If you think the season is over, I don't know what to say. It isn't. They will still win the East, rather easily actually and then once the playoffs start, anything can happen. Guys stepping up is nothing new.

The offense is relatively healthy and getting better, so if the D declines a tad, the O will have to score a few more points.

I didn't mean to sound so dour. I'm usually the eternal optimist when it comes to the Patriots but I was initially irked a bit by the question in the OP that declining play might not be excused because of the rash of injuries.

And yes, the offense will need to score more points and I think it will.

I noticed that in the OP as well - the "declining play" stuff. Actually that's somewhat trollish, because I'm not sure there's actually been a decline at all. They're still winning, with the exception of the Jets game which was just an odd game with a pick 6 and the FG penalty and assorted other strange. That game was abnormal.

The defense was solid against Miami and while it would be nice to have everybody healthy, that's just not realistic. Baltimore had injuries last year and had guys step up.

Okay, call me trollish, and you get a response.

This topic is not necessarily about the Patriots at all. It's about injuries in general, and if we as fans take them into account when judging the level of play on the field. I just wondered if the posters here consider them, or dismiss them as just something that all teams have to deal with.

On the other hand, the Pats' defense is giving up more points and WAY more rushing yards than earlier in the season- something I would refer to as a "decline".

Seems like sometimes on this forum that if you criticize at all, you're a troll. And if you praise to much, you're a homer.

The level of play has declined, the defense is soft in the middle, putting more pressure on our linebackers and leaving or defensive backs to cover longer. Opposing teams with power run games can expose us, I hope the new DT additions will cover this up.

We immediately missed Shane Vereen, we miss a healthy Amendola since he seemed to be the only "sure thing" in the passing game early on outside of Edelmen.

I love the "next man up" attitude on the board but we can't really afford too many more injuries and please, let's not knock our own players who are hurt, we are substantially diminished with their losses, all we can hope is that the teams around us take similar injury hits, we have the best (healthiest) team left standing in the end and our level of execution improves.

I can't remember when the Pats have been affected this much by injuries, especially at key positions- at least during the golden age that has been the last dozen years or so.

Over the years, I have watched other NFL teams get decimated (sp?) by injuries and thought to myself, "that team has a legitimate excuse to play poorly."

At some point, even with "capable" back-ups, the play on the field is going to decline. Do you guys share this attitude? Does anyone else feel like injuries, at least when numerous enough, can justify poor play? Or is this something that grown men are just expected to overcome?

Though it's pushing the envelope to expect the reserves to perform as well as the first stringers, I tend to be in the camp which champions that "grown men can overcome". With hard work, a good attitude, and good coaching, injuries can be overcome. Poor play cannot be "justified", or accepted. Next man up.