Thyroid symptoms: hypothyroid, Hashimoto's

Recommended Posts

Karma

Karma

I posted on Soul's thread and Alto suggested that I start a topic in symptoms for thyroid (which was a brilliant idea). I have Celiac Disease and Hashitmoto's thyroiditis and I can tell you that I had awful pains and symptoms (fatigue, irritability, brain fog, joint pain, inability to interact with others) until I got proper treatment. I was relieved to learn that there was something treatable that was responsible for the symptoms I was having.

I read through Soul's thread and saw that she has pain as symptoms - she even mentions one day when her feet hurt, which is actually a classic hypothyroid symptom. (I had awful pain in my feet - they would go numb - after treating my hypothyroidism I have no problems at all). I saw where Soul was diagnosed with gluten intolerance ... research has proven that Hashimoto's thyroiditis is present over 50% of the time when gluten intolerance (or Celiac Disease) are present.

Doctors ... endocrinologists ... are notorious for missing this diagnosis until the TSH lab value gets high enough that it exceeds the normal range. Until that happens the doctor will tell you, "all tests are normal." Where I live the TSH is 0.45-4.5 or even 0.35-3.5, but I've seen people exhibiting severe hypothyroid symptoms with TSH values at 2.

Some of the symptoms we experience may be due to a thyroid condition. I recommend getting a copy of the labs that your doctor ran - or request that your doctor run these labs: Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3, Thyroid peroxidase antibody (TPOAb); Thyroglobulin antibody (TgAb). Get a Reverse T3 at the same time you get the Free T3. To feel your best you want the Free T3 in the upper part of the range; the ideal Free T4 is mid-range - the doctor may tell you that your tests are normal because they fall within the range, but the reality is that your doctor needs to take into consideration your symptoms.

For Reverse T3 we will do a calculation to determine the ratio of Free T3 to reverse T3 - this web site can help you calculate and interpret your RT3 ratio:

The results for Thyroid peroxidase antibody (TPOAb); Thyroglobulin antibody (TgAb) - If you have any antibodies at all you have Hashimoto's thyroiditis (the lab may say that < (less than) some number is normal, but what it really means is that you are not currently having an attack, but you have had an attack).

Hashimoto's thyroiditis is an autoimmune disease - the body is attacking they thyroid. Doctors will test the TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) which is not a thyroid hormone at all - it is a pituitary hormone. It is considered the gold standard for thyroid, but the values for normal are skewed and labs have reported that they cannot change them because it would cause more people to be diagnosed hypothyroid (translation "it would make us look bad").

Note that Total T4 or Total T3 are not really helpful labs - we want to know what is available for the cell receptors and that is what the Frees represent. There are patient advocate sites that can help here you can find places to talk to others https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/talk-to-others/

Link to post

Share on other sites

Barbarannamated

Barbarannamated

My endocrinologist told me recently that TSH is a 'moving target' and therefore extremely unreliable in catching thyroid problems ~ my mother's TSH was 10 last year and her PCP thought it was a fluke and opted to not treat and retest in 6 weeks ~ when I found this out we had a 'chat' and he came around to my way of thinking

Thank you for any guidance on endocrine issues and testing ~ I've known that PCPs don't know the proper tests and how to interpret but I'm also learning that there is great variability among endocrinologists • for example a Diabetes specialist may not be up to date on HPA testing •

Q: Is there a good resource to locate an appropriate subspecialist/thyroidologist/pituitary

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

Alto that would indicate that while you were in acute withdrawal you were suffering an autoimmune attack to your thyroid - your body was inappropriately attacking your thyroid gland.

The fact that the numbers are going down would mean that whatever caused the attack is subsiding. If the numbers are still above the normal range it means you are still having an autoimmune attack and might want to look into what could be causing the attack. If the numbers are within the normal range it would indicate that you are no longer under attack.

Autoimmune diseases tend to be seen in clusters. When one has Hashimoto's we look for other autoimmune conditions like Celiac disease, diabetes type I, Vitiligo, Sarcoidosis or Sjögren's syndrome. The medical community doesn't know what causes the autoimmune attacks, but we (the patient community) have seen relief in the number of antibodies when people investigate and resolve food allergies.

The eight major protein allergens are wheat/gluten, soy, eggs, fin fish, shell fish, peanuts, tree nuts, and casein found in dairy. However, I've also run into people with allergies to corn and even rice. A true allergy to gluten might also make you sensitive to say casein and soy. That was originally the case for me, but since I healed my gut I find that I can handle moderate amounts of dairy with no symptoms whatsoever. I still avoid soy, but similarly on the occasions when I've gotten a hold of it, I've had no symptoms at all.

With proper treatment I have lost nearly 30 pounds and kept it off for several years. I am not cold all the time, my feet no longer hurt at all, I no longer have any carpal tunnel symptoms, I have no joint, bone or muscle pain, I have good energy and have normal sleep/wake patterns where I wake up refreshed. I still have a little forgetfulness, but that may be associated with low estrogen. Generally I no longer have foggy thinking or brain fog ... if I start to get brain fog I know I need to check my thyroid treatment as that is one of my early symptoms. The other symptom that shows up quickly for me is dry, cracking skin ... however, I live in a very dry climate so some of that goes with the territory.

Here is the trouble with traditional doctors: Ultimately, every time I would get my thyroid treatment high enough to resolve my hypothyroid symptoms the doctor would call and tell me that my TSH was too low (she would say my thyroid treatment was too high) and make me lower my dose. That almost always resulted in a constant low grade depression, fatigue, and a fair amount of paranoia.

My pdoc agreed with me that these low grade depression episodes were directly related to my thyroid treatment. I finally convinced that medical doctor that we needed to go by my symptoms and Free T3 and disregard the whole TSH - that made her uncomfortable. But no one could argue with how much healthier I was getting. When I insisted on treating my adrenals my medical doctor found me a wellness doctor in the area who specializes in alternative treatment and he agreed to take me on as a patient.

My medical doctor said that my research was far advanced of her knowledge and she didn't feel she could give me the guidance I needed - I think she wanted to avoid losing her medical license as our state medical board doesn't like alternative therapies - however, she has not dropped me as a patient, so I guess this is the best I could hope for.

I hope this is helpful. I am not suggesting everyone has a thyroid problem, but I am suggesting that if you do have thyroid problems getting sufficient treatment may help you feel better and help you get through antidepressant withdrawals.

I have a friend who has vitiligo - about three years after we found out I had Celiac Disease we found out she had Celiac Disease ... then she had a huge goiter on her thyroid and two different endocrinologists dismissed it and said that her numbers were normal ... she also has interstitial cystitis which is suspected to be an autoimmune disease. We finally got her to an internist who had some experience in this area and now she is finally on thyroid treatment and doing better.

Just to be clear - I am not a medical professional - I am just a patient who is active in patient advocacy and have gleaned knowledge from my participation with a community of 5000+ patients. However, I don't think you can go to the doctor and just blindly follow their guidance - you have to do some research and educate yourself. I believe that the patient manages the patient's health and the doctor is the high-paid consultant who's opinion we can consider

One of those is PANHYPOPITUITARISM 49yo female ~no pregnancies My FSH level was above Post Menopausal a few yrs ago even though I never had clsssic symptoms of hot flashes and insomnia (may have been suppressed by SNRI) I made up for it in mood symptoms --PMS gets worse with age I learned I've been treated for Hashimotos since 1996 w/Synthroid -wasnt aware of Armour until my horse needed it but Synthroid worked MUCH better than levothroid

Tried Cytomel (T3) occasionally without noticeable improvement ~ TSH checked regularly by LomaLindaUniv Endocrinology (I insisted on fT3 and lab tech agreed-said docs are clueless) Doc ordering tests above dx me in '96 and hadn't seen me in 10 years since I moved out of his area ~ Weight dropped from 140 to 95ish in that time and all of the docs I saw said EAT MORE or questioned me about anorexia/bulimia/illegal drug use (in that accusatory way they have) but NEVER checked anything but thyroid (usually TSH)

I realize these test results may be skewed by meds but Ive been avoiding for months and feel like death~i won't jump into any treatment to replace hormones my system isn't producing (possibly all) and will find most benign possible ~ Doc is very aware of dangers of SS/NRIs and worsening depression ~ Karma ~feel free to share with any groups~im a willing case study *this is workup for FAR MORE than thyroid issues that have been previously diagnosed~didnt want to alarm anyone ii Although my understanding is that the clinical picture was likely exacerbated and hastened by psych drugs (originally prescribed for fatigue) and missed by at least a dozen psychiatrists and endocrinologist over the years as every symptom was attributed to depression •

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

It will be interesting to see what your labs look like. I went into menopause early (most likely due to Celiac disease). My bones were at Osteopenia when I was 49 so I started supplementing with bio-identical hormones. They are compounded as I have strong opinions about the ones the pharmaceutical companies hawk. It has really helped me.

I like natural dessicated thyroid, but Armour changed its formula in 2009 and it jacked up a lot of people. We recommend NatureThroid or ERFA out of Canada (you can get it with a valid prescription from many reputable Canadian pharmacies). I had to switch to T3 only because my reverse T3 got so high that I was in a perpetual state of hypothyroidism.

My TSH is suppressed and I treat to cessation of symptoms and monitor average daily temperatures (Broda Barnes). Traditional doctors dismiss the whole temperature thing, but I can't tell you how many patients I've seen use this method and find a level of health that their doctors were unable to achieve with TSH. (I do feel like I am limited in optimizing my health using this technique due to still taking the AD and benzo, but I've achieved really good results, albeit I cannot optimized my average daily temperatures to around 98.6).

We've also had testimonials that natural dessicated thyroid actually improves bone density and that would be because it contains all of the thyroid components including calcitonin. I hope you find something that you can address to feel better.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

I'm so sorry that your husband wouldn't help you. I know what you mean about hoping that something shows up in the labs ... I was so relieved when they said I had hypothyroidism - it meant there was something we could work on. I just didn't know that tradition medicine was so inept at treating it.

Don't feel hopeless and alone ... clearly you aren't getting support at home, but you have us.

Karma

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Barbarannamated

Barbarannamated

My doc is anticipating that all of my hormones will need to be replaced ~estrogen/testosterone /steroids --anything produced by pituitary thyroid adrenals --essentially replacing my endocrine system --i try not to think about it but it's overwhelming especially just as I got off of antidepressants

My endocrine doc is in tune w the dangers of SSRIs :osteopenia/porosis ~cardiometabolic/stroke ~psrkinsons~diabetes~SIADH so is trying to mitigate damage

He's also well aware of SSRIs causing depression so I feel thankful that I didn't need to explain that

I'm searching for a PSYCHONEUROIMMUNOLOGIST who might also have insight but most are PhD researchers and not treaters ~scary that SSRIs are being investigated to treat immune problems due to their cytokine activity

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

Barb I understand your concerns - it can seem overwhelming, but I think we take a page from Gerard who is using his experience with the 12-step programs and use the idea of one step at a time.

I think you start with the sex hormones - when I first started them I felt better pretty quickly and had very little challenge getting them balanced. The the cream quit absorbing and I had to find a different doc to try sublingual troches - I had a bit of a rough patch getting that balanced, but not too bad compared to getting off of ADs.

Next work on optimizing the thyroid treatment - we optimize thyroid last. If you've ever read the insert that comes with your thyroid treatment you will find that it says that adrenals must be stable before treating with thyroid.

If there is something out of whack with your hormones I think you'll find that as you begin to get those balanced you will begin to feel better and better. I've actually experienced JOY for extended periods ... and that was while I was in the process of weaning off of Effexor .

However, in my experience it isn't a hot flash or surge that occurs in the evening, it is simply that i have more energy and can think more clearly ... what i've found is that this is directly related to having higher cortisol in the evening. the other side of this for me is that it usually means i have difficult sleeping. i'm not sure this is the same thing that you are experiencing.

RT3-Adreanals yahoo group ... if you chose to join the site you can post your own questions and get answers.

I am not a medical professional, only a patient sharing my experiences and the things that I have personally found helpful. It is ideal if you can find doctor who can work with new ideas and information that you can find on these patient advocate sites.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

I haven't seen any research or studies that identify a connection between withdrawals and thyroid problems. Since antidepressant withdrawal isn't widely recognized you wouldn't see any studies identifying the connection.

Personally, I believe that undiagnosed thyroid problems result in depression symptoms that are often treated incorrectly with antidepressants. So it is possible that you already had an underlying thyroid problem, but were treated with antidepressants.

I'll do some research - there may be some research that antidepressants affect the endocrine system and if that is the case, that is the connection you'd be looking for. The problem is that once you've experienced antidepressant withdrawals you will need to be very careful starting any thyroid treatment. Your system will be hypersensitive and your doctor may not understand how slowly you need to go.

Are you currently being treated for hypothyroidism? Are they doing anything about the nodules?

Karma

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

crista

crista

Thank you so much. I'm seeing an Endocrinologist who just wants me to get yearly thyroid ultrasounds to keep an eye on the nodules. Maybe I should get a second opinion. I feel like my body is falling apart and it all started after I got off antidepressants so I thought maybe there was a correlation. First I got diagnosed with Hashimoto's then Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome and now they want me to get a spinal tap to check for MS and Lymes.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Shanti

Shanti

Are there natural remedies to help this? I can't get doctors help. My doctors don't take me seriously about ANYTHING anymore and I give up. I saw a doctor for medical marijuana prescription, and while she couldn't help me, she said that just looking at me and by my symptoms she would bet anything that my thyroid is too high. She said my eye is bulging and my neck is puffed. And it is. I have nearly all the symptoms and I wonder if all my troubles with pain are from this. I don't know what to do. My labs, twice, were normal. I can't see any other doctor because I don't have the money.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Barbarannamated

Barbarannamated

Are there natural remedies to help this? I can't get doctors help. My doctors don't take me seriously about ANYTHING anymore and I give up. I saw a doctor for medical marijuana prescription, and while she couldn't help me, she said that just looking at me and by my symptoms she would bet anything that my thyroid is too high. She said my eye is bulging and my neck is puffed. And it is. I have nearly all the symptoms and I wonder if all my troubles with pain are from this. I don't know what to do. My labs, twice, were normal. I can't see any other doctor because I don't have the money.

Shanti -

Just clarifying what you mean by too high thyroid - overactive (possible Graves Disease) or high TSH which would indicate HYPOthyroid -

Bulging eyes go with hyperthyroid and body pain and neurologic symptoms are related to thyroid although I'm not if hypo- or hyper- or both -

There are nutritional products that claim to support thyroid but I'm not familiar with them or potential dangers -

I feel your frustration -

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

Are there natural remedies to help this? I can't get doctors help. My doctors don't take me seriously about ANYTHING anymore and I give up. I saw a doctor for medical marijuana prescription, and while she couldn't help me, she said that just looking at me and by my symptoms she would bet anything that my thyroid is too high. She said my eye is bulging and my neck is puffed. And it is. I have nearly all the symptoms and I wonder if all my troubles with pain are from this. I don't know what to do. My labs, twice, were normal. I can't see any other doctor because I don't have the money.

So this is the reason that there are patient support groups ... many of us have had the same sad experience with doctors. Barb's questions are right on the money ... is your thyroid producing too much thyroid hormone (hyperthyroid) or is it not producing enough leaving you with hypothyroid symptoms?

You can join (you will need to search for these groups and join) RT3-Adrenal yahoo group or Natural Thyroid Hormone Users yahoo group for some guidance on what you can do on your own ... I personally have a great relationship with the Adrenals group and find their recommendations to be better than any doctor's recommendations.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Karma

Karma

I did find this information indicating that Prozac may cause hypothyroid symptoms: [bad link]

But I really couldn't find any other valid research about withdrawal symptoms causing thyroid problems, but I did find this interview with Dr. Shames supporting my theory that many people who present with depression are actually suffering from hypothyroidism. http://thyroid.about.com/b/2011/08/15/antidepressants-thyroid-depression-shames.htm

But I really couldn't find any other valid research about withdrawal symptoms causing thyroid problems, but I did find this interview with Dr. Shames supporting my theory that many people who present with depression are actually suffering from hypothyroidism.

If you remember one thing from this post insist that your health care team check your hormones. All of them. ALL!! One even slightly out of whack can explain arrythmia, anxiety, depression, insomnia, panic, etc.

After speaking with the department chair in repro-endo at a major medical school on the east coast, I'm furious at a pdoc who inappropriately put me on gabapentin without checking hormones, and a pnurse who put me back on celexa, meaning well, saying that I gone into a major depression but without checking hormones. I've never had the dx before, only dysthimia.

Life had caused problems (a botched IVF cycle in Dec 2011). But I was not, it turns out, suddenly majorly depressed as I was told. For financial reasons, for lack of training, for drug company profits, the gp/pdoc do not consider hormones and the role they play in how we feel.

On Friday I spoke with the department chair who explained my last 4 months perfectly and it has zip, nothing, nada to do with depression or any need for ADs. It has everything to do with hormones and I want to make sure EVERYONE can know what I learned.

For some reason, since Dec 2011, my estrogen levels have fluctuated more than normal, and dropped down at some points.

1. Low Estrogen gives you perimenopause symptoms which can give you negative emotions/mood swings. The "normal" level of hormones for each person is different, so there is not 100% point where any doctor can say you have "normal" levels or not. Make sure you stand up for yourself. (The only beyond a doubt measure is high FSH numbers). Point one for hormones being the cause of mood symptoms.

2. The liver converts estrogen into thyroxine binding globulin in the liver. TBG binds to certain forms of the thyroid hormones and can either take it out of circulation or cause it to rise too high in the blood stream, especially when the patient is on a exogenous hormone administration. This results in a low TSH and hyperthyroid symptoms (in my case).

3. Hyperthyroid symptoms include mood swings, depression and anxiety and palpatation/arrythmia/heart racing, making me think I was in a panic mode when I knew I had nothing to be concerned about. Ditto if you swing into the hypothyroid symptoms. Point two for hormones being the cause of mood symptoms.

So please, may all that read this know that hormones can explain mood/depression and anxiety reactions to everyday life. And hormone treatment/adjustment can quickly help.

I hope this information will be helpful to others!! If I had only known this earlier I could have saved myself from 4 month of h&ll and fear I was "loosing my mind." I pray this information will be helpful to someone else and encouragement that when we go thru AD withdrawal to insist on keeping tabs on one's hormone levels to a much more active level than even an regular endocrinologist will do. It took a reproductive endocrinologist (another level of sub-specialty) to figure this out.