Think Ima keep the "totally" tag for all my future threads. Totally Magnificent MoP Retribution T15 BiS list and Theorycraft anyone? The title thread suits me perfectly as I'm sure anyone who has had interaction with me in the past 6 years would agree.

Kudo's to badpaladin who started the trend when he turned my 4.3 thread into Anaxie's "Totally Kickass" thread. I loved the tag from the start.

I'm just curious, do any other top 100 guild rets feel like they're pulling their weight dps wise?
I mean... sure on Garalon we do great and kinda good on Wind Lord... but something like Sha of Fear or Empress?
I've settled a long time ago that I (ret paladin) will struggle to be top dps, most likely never going to happen...
I've kept thinking that rets aren't brought to raids for their dps but their utility and tools, but now it seems like there's less and less use for those tools... making us less "worth" in a raid setup. While we were strugling with Sha of Fear heroic a week ago I looked over logs and found that if we replaced me and the other ret paladin and instead took 2 dks that we had on standby we'd go up 80k raid dps in the last phase + better aoe on adds...

So if anyone can honestly tell me a reason to bring a ret paladin over another dps please do, because all I can see is devo aura... which is magic only.

I'm in no threat to lose my raidspot because of performance or attendance etc, but if we hit a dps wall again the easiest fix would be to replace the lowest dps, which 9/10 fights the past tier is going to be a ret paladin despite the "other things" we bring to a raid.
Just don't see devs noticing the problem and the "jokes" by ghostcrawler via twitter/facebook is pushing me towards holy more and more... I mean they can't be blind of the issues with ret? can they?

I feel the same way regarding Sha. Our damage on adds is pretty abysmal. We do bring Dev Aura and (for that fight) hand of purity, which help a lot, but....I know how you feel. Doing everything I can to max my add damage, and we're still below almost every class. Kinda sucks.

I'm just curious, do any other top 100 guild rets feel like they're pulling their weight dps wise?
I mean... sure on Garalon we do great and kinda good on Wind Lord... but something like Sha of Fear or Empress?
I've settled a long time ago that I (ret paladin) will struggle to be top dps, most likely never going to happen...
I've kept thinking that rets aren't brought to raids for their dps but their utility and tools, but now it seems like there's less and less use for those tools... making us less "worth" in a raid setup. While we were strugling with Sha of Fear heroic a week ago I looked over logs and found that if we replaced me and the other ret paladin and instead took 2 dks that we had on standby we'd go up 80k raid dps in the last phase + better aoe on adds...

So if anyone can honestly tell me a reason to bring a ret paladin over another dps please do, because all I can see is devo aura... which is magic only.

Looking at logs on Sha of Fear is kind-of pointless unless every single person in the raid is logging and you comb through all of them at the same time.

EDIT: Actually you only really need the tanks logging. That's probably the most efficient way to do it.

You can isolate P2 on world of logs and sort it by overall DPS, sha of fear dps and add dps as you want...
that's beside the point tho, if there's no % damage increase on any fight rets are going to be behind on dps on a biblical scale.
I can't understand how devs think rets are doing fine at the moment unless they're making half the T15 raids have % damage increases... which so far it doesn't look like.

I don't know... besides the love for the spec there's not much going for ret, atleast for me...

You can isolate P2 on world of logs and sort it by overall DPS, sha of fear dps and add dps as you want...
that's beside the point tho, if there's no % damage increase on any fight rets are going to be behind on dps on a biblical scale.
I can't understand how devs think rets are doing fine at the moment unless they're making half the T15 raids have % damage increases... which so far it doesn't look like.

I don't know... besides the love for the spec there's not much going for ret, atleast for me...

Feeling exactly the same. Being the raid leader of a 10m guild, I had to bench myself on Sha of Fear Heroic progression because Ret DPS is so terrible for p2 - especially for a 10m guild.
Currently seeing not much of a point to bring a Ret Paladin for a 10m guild when you've got any other Paladin in your raid. It embarrasses me to be so much behind the other people in my raid despite my ilvl 508. And what's worse is that I'm still getting good ranks on WoL so it can't just be my own fault.

Feeling exactly the same. Being the raid leader for a 10m guild, I had to bench myself on Sha of Fear Heroic progression because Ret DPS is so terrible for p2 - especially for a 10m guild.
Currently seeing not much of a point to bring a Ret Paladin for a 10m guild when you've got any other Paladin in your raid. It embarrasses to be so much behind the other people in my raid despite my ilvl 508. And what's worse is that I'm still getting good ranks on WoL so it can't just be my own fault.

God I wish I was ilvl 508.. but yeah in 25 I at least don't feel like a burden.

Ret is useful for double bop/HoP/devotion aura. This doesn't cover how our damage sucks overall compared to other classes. More fun thing is that most of competitive rets at the start of mop used AW-HA prepull trick, it was removed to drop us down. Now I am sure that ALL competitive rets are using t11 prepull, which will be removed in 5.2 as well. I've been testing some bosses at PTR and I am at the solid 5 or even 6 place when we are dropping 1 healer for 1 dps and let me tell you that sucks.

I'm 508 aswell, missing wep and tsulong ring for BiS if you don't count heroic elite protectors gear. Despite being one of the best geared dpsers in the guild, second best geared ret on the realm and so on doesn't stop me from scraping the botton of the barrel on many fights. Come T15 we get RNG set bonuses which is going to demand alot more micro management from our side without much of a damage boost (according to early simc), back in Cataclysm we had distinct abilities that hit hard and was our "main source" of damage. In MoP however our damage is split pretty even between our mastery (I suspect that will go up in T15 when mastery builds should be better than haste) TV, Exorcism, Crusader Strike and judgement. This also seems to be a problem in pvp, there's no "big hitter" that can cause preassure from rets in pvp except during CDs but then we get CCd/stun/dispell/silence and so on IF they don't LoS kite us.

I know Anaxie has/had a post up on US battle.net forums but we need to be more vocal on ptr and live forums if things are going to change. By the looks of things devs are blind and can't see the issues with ret in pve and pvp, shame when the overall feel of the spec is the best it's been in years.

---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 11:14 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Megraam

Ret is useful for double bop/HoP/devotion aura.

All other paladins also bring this, if you're in a 10man and you have a prot and holy paladin you don't have much need for a ret for paladin cds/utility.
Same goes for 25man, we usually raid with 1-2 holy and 1-2 rets when we progress. We have 3 rets on roster and unless we lack melee for interrupts we're almost never going to be 3 rets in the raid because 4 paladins are usually enough to cover all magic aoe hits for CDs aswell as sac/prot/salv/purity hands. The 5th would only be there to "free cast" the raid cds whenever, sortof the same issue disc priests have. 1 disc priest in a raid = insanely good, 2 disc priests = good, 3 disc priests = shit. At some point things just don't benefit the raid enough to make up for other losses.

Feeling exactly the same. Being the raid leader of a 10m guild, I had to bench myself on Sha of Fear Heroic progression because Ret DPS is so terrible for p2 - especially for a 10m guild.
Currently seeing not much of a point to bring a Ret Paladin for a 10m guild when you've got any other Paladin in your raid. It embarrasses me to be so much behind the other people in my raid despite my ilvl 508. And what's worse is that I'm still getting good ranks on WoL so it can't just be my own fault.

Ye, 100% agree, but 2paladins is still fine because you free holy from wasting gcds on purity = 1 and well you should focus at what rets are best at more on that specific fight in a 10man = tunneling boss. Just switch to adds when cleanups are needed. Then again in 10man people usually free huddles asap with passing the light unlike 25man so in that regard our usefullness does drop off a little.

Ye, 100% agree, but 2paladins is still fine because you free holy from wasting gcds on purity = 1 and well you should focus at what rets are best at more on that specific fight in a 10man = tunneling boss. Just switch to adds when cleanups are needed. Then again in 10man people usually free huddles asap with passing the light unlike 25man so in that regard our usefullness does drop off a little.

While I agree any 2 specs (except arms warriors, ele shamans and shadow priests) are going to outdps rets single target, so you could get something like 2 arcane mages instead of 2 rets tunneling boss and they'll do better.

Ye, ya could, but was talking strictly 10man there where raidbuffs and utility are actually pretty important while the dps gap also even bigger. And for p1 progress pre 15% hastebuff ret is prolly the strongest class there is

Oh yeah no doubts, I love it when we pull and use hero in P1 and I go up to 130% haste with trinket up, rather hilarious.
After that though my dps drops harder than a hookers panties to a 50$ bill... which isn't quite as amusing.
Sha of Fear P1 first 45 seconds. ~209k dps. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p6...?s=5686&e=5730
Sha of Fear P1 45-90 seconds. ~76k dps. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p6...?s=5731&e=5772
I might've been sent to one of the platforms late in the 45-90 second time window, anyways when Avenging wrath comes back off CD we jump up to 160-180k dps again... so sad.

On any standstill no damage increase mechanics I do anywhere from 95-115k dps pretty much where simc show rets atm...