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Re: Pavano Progress Report

That's exactly my point. If he hadn't "tried", maybe someone else could have stepped in and we wouldn't have lost those games. No sense in false heroics. Vanity will never trump prudence.

Who???? We had absolutely nobody else that could pitch. Do you think Brown really wanted to pitch? No! Cash said that he was hopeful Pavano would pitch that game but when he couldn't he asked Brown to pitch. This wasn't Brown trying to be heroic. This was Brown being asked by Cashman, after he had asked Pavano, to pitch because we literally had nobody else to pitch that game. (I'm talking about the Texas game here - which we did win). And, as much as Brown pissed me off the last couple years, I respect him for attempting to pitch and risk further injury on his already f*cked up back.

“I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.”

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan

I respect him for attempting to pitch and risk further injury on his already f*cked up back.

I feel this way too. Brown may have been an asshole, but he really did risk long term damage to his back that would effect him outside of baseball to pitch a few games for us. By no means am I defending any of Brown's poor performances, but I respect his effort.

Re: Pavano Progress Report

I am rooting for Pavano.....and am willing to give him and Wright another chance to prove themselves in 06'. I understand the temptation to trade Pavano.....if he flops this year, we'd have to eat most of his contract just to give him away..... much like the current situation with Wright.

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Originally Posted by ryanthe13th

I feel this way too. Brown may have been an asshole, but he really did risk long term damage to his back that would effect him outside of baseball to pitch a few games for us. By no means am I defending any of Brown's poor performances, but I respect his effort.

That's how I feel. The guy couldn't pitch anymore. His back was screwed up but he was asked to pitch and knowing we had nobody else he gave it his best. I remember this game very well as we won it 11-10. KB came out and he didn't pitch too well, but Bernie really hurt him in CF. Either way, he came out and pitched into the 5th inning, which was about as much as we could ask for at that point of the season.

“I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.”

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Originally Posted by gdn

I'd rather Pavano have a "mystery ailment" and not pitch, than pitch with back spasms and give up 5 runs in the first two innings and take up a roster spot.

My point that was, in light of Brown's effort in the face of serious risks (both on and off the field), Pavano was nowhere to be found with basically no explaination. My orginial post simply pointed out that I would have more faith in Pavano if we knew what was going on with him last season. Instead, we got "out for two weeks" then "out for a month" then "will be back in August" then "out for the season." I wasn't suggesting that we risk our investment in him by starting him. I was simply saying that, with that litany of changing stories, little to no information about the injury (or his recovery from it), and his injury history, I'm not exactly inspired by his chances of pitching a full season.

Regarding Kevin Brown, I couldn't agree more with JeffWeaverFan, he came in and pitched when no one else could on July 18. If you recall, we simply didn't have anyone to pitch. He went out there and gave us 4.1 innings, which is what we needed most. He risked serious off-field injury doing so. Now, I'm no Kevin Brown fan (I hold him most culpable for the 2004 disaster in the post-season), but to say he was "taking up a roster spot" while getting a decimated pitching staff into the 5th inning is a lttle much.

I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Originally Posted by TEPLimey

My point that was, in light of Brown's effort in the face of serious risks (both on and off the field), Pavano was nowhere to be found with basically no explaination. My orginial post simply pointed out that I would have more faith in Pavano if we knew what was going on with him last season. Instead, we got "out for two weeks" then "out for a month" then "will be back in August" then "out for the season." I wasn't suggesting that we risk our investment in him by starting him. I was simply saying that, with that litany of changing stories, little to no information about the injury (or his recovery from it), and his injury history, I'm not exactly inspired by his chances of pitching a full season.

Regarding Kevin Brown, I couldn't agree more with JeffWeaverFan, he came in and pitched when no one else could on July 18. If you recall, we simply didn't have anyone to pitch. He went out there and gave us 4.1 innings, which is what we needed most. He risked serious off-field injury doing so. Now, I'm no Kevin Brown fan (I hold him most culpable for the 2004 disaster in the post-season), but to say he was "taking up a roster spot" while getting a decimated pitching staff into the 5th inning is a lttle much.

Comparing the Yankees' willingness to further injure Brown versus their reluctance to further injure Pavano is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Allowing Brown to try to pitch is a no-risk move outside the context of winning or losing that particular game. He was at the end of his contract, the end of his time with the Yankees, and the end of his career. If he were to suffer a catastrophic aggravation of his existing injuries, we lose nothing but that game.

Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

Brown's willingness to pitch wasn't an example of him having a bigger heart than Pavano -- it was merely a case of the Yankees desperately squeezing the final drops out of a lemon and hoping it would somehow turn into lemonade.

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Originally Posted by Jasbro

Comparing the Yankees' willingness to further injure Brown versus their reluctance to further injure Pavano is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Allowing Brown to try to pitch is a no-risk move outside the context of winning or losing that particular game. He was at the end of his contract, the end of his time with the Yankees, and the end of his career. If he were to suffer a catastrophic aggravation of his existing injuries, we lose nothing but that game.

Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

Brown's willingness to pitch wasn't an example of him having a bigger heart than Pavano -- it was merely a case of the Yankees desperately squeezing the final drops out of a lemon and hoping it would somehow turn into lemonade.

Thank you. That post had my eyes rolling deep into the back of my head

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Originally Posted by Jasbro

Comparing the Yankees' willingness to further injure Brown versus their reluctance to further injure Pavano is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Allowing Brown to try to pitch is a no-risk move outside the context of winning or losing that particular game. He was at the end of his contract, the end of his time with the Yankees, and the end of his career. If he were to suffer a catastrophic aggravation of his existing injuries, we lose nothing but that game.

Pavano is more than 10 years younger and still has 3 years and more than $30 million committed to him. Risking a catastrophic injury or aggravation of his existing injuries would be insanity.

Brown's willingness to pitch wasn't an example of him having a bigger heart than Pavano -- it was merely a case of the Yankees desperately squeezing the final drops out of a lemon and hoping it would somehow turn into lemonade.

Finally...evidence of sanity...

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."

Re: Pavano Progress Report

Pavano has a significant amount of talent. Anyone in baseball can tell you that. His injuries have tempered a bit of that ability (he no longer throws 95-98 like he did when he was dealt for Pedro), but there does exist a nice amount of pitching talent.

He was hurt last year down the stretch of his starts, but before that last couple of weeks he was actually a pretty effective pitcher. Now.....the problem is that this is his whole career- when he is "fully healthy" he has actually pitched pretty well. The last few months of '03, and the season of '04. He's also had flashes during other years where he has been very good for somewhat extended periods.

So, if you told me that Carl Pavano was going to be 100% healthy next year, I'd be content with how he might fare. He's probably a solid B- pitcher- a competent #2 or a pretty good #3.

But this assumption would fly in the face of evidence that the likelihood of his being 100% healthy exists somewhere in the 15-20% range, as calculated by his actual injury history. Maybe a shade higher, but not by much.

I watched probably 20 of his starts in '04, and can frankly tell you that while the park likely helped his overall stats somewhat, his performances were such that he was going to pitch well anywhere. His stuff was very good, occasionally electric. He possesses a very effective darting fastball that he spots at the knees- and this was pretty much non-existent last year with the Yanks. He also can sit at 91-94, while he was more like 89-91 with the Yanks.

I guess my point is that I don't believe his heart or his talent is in question- I believe it's solely his ability to stay healthy. He's rarely been healthy, so the chances are pretty slim that he lives up to his contract- but I would be somewhat comfortable in Pavano doing so if you guaranteed his health.