Personally, I think they should. altering a dog has nothing to do with the conformation of the dog, and even altered dogs reflect back on the parents. The AKC gives credit to the parents when the offspring earn titles, so why shouldn't they have that venu open to them as well?

I can't think of any reason not to?

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

The original purpose of the dog show was to determine & promote quality breeding stock. Altered dogs cannot be bred so no reason to champion them. And besides, the registry cannot make money off of an altered dog...........no registration money will be made from a litter.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

On December 04 2006, cheekymunkee wrote:The original purpose of the dog show was to determine & promote quality breeding stock. Altered dogs cannot be bred so no reason to champion them. And besides, the registry cannot make money off of an altered dog...........no registration money will be made from a litter.

I agree too!
But they can complete in anything else other then conformation.

Ellie----------------------------------------"Winners aren't born...they're made.And they're made just like anything else...through hard work.That's the price we'll have to pay to achive that goal."

Plenty of people with Championed dogs don't breed them... they alter them after showing. I think everyone can agree that it takes more than a CH in conformation to makes a dog worthy for breeding... so really what harm is it doing to allow fixed dogs to compete?

I see nothing wrong with showing altered dogs. Thats what I wanted to do and since it isnt allowed I will get a dog show her and get some titles and then alter afterwards. No breeding. I think there is a sense of responsibility added there. Such as breeding stock that maybe isnt the greatest but still gets some titles. I guess its my opinion. I do see where they are coming from with the orignial purpose of the shows, to get the good breeding stock together. But I also think that times have changed. and if an altered dog owner wants to show I see nothing wrong with it. Like said before, the dog getting titled reflects on the parents as good producers.

I guess I see both sides to the situation but I would see ntohing wrong with people showing altered dogs, even if it was for fun and getting more involved in the breed. Which is what i want to do!!!

Tina
Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!

The difference is that it is ALL about the You have to look at the big picture. Sure, you can spend $1000 to champion an altered dog but that is all the registry will make from that dog. From an INTACT dog it will make that $1000, PLUS litter fees PLUS any fees that the litter might bring in if any of the puppies are shown & championed & so on & so on. Sure, not ALL championed dogs are bred but the registries are betting on the fact that they will be. It's all about the dollar bill ya'll.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

On December 05 2006, 12:52, Karen wrote:Altered classes WERE offered and there was a thing to do a CH and stuff. What happened? NO ONE BOTHERED TO SHOW. Done killed it deader than a doornail.

I'm not talking about "altered classes" I'm talking about showing in the same classes as the other dogs.

What's the difference? So many crappy dogs get titles that should NEVER be bred and don't come within light years of the standards. Maybe a few altered dogs would bump them out of the running.

I understand your point but I don't think altered dogs should be competing in the same classes . Though some may show dogs unworthy of titles that are unaltered, it isn't fair to the people who have genuinely are showing wquality stock for the right reasons to allow it. JMO though. Judges shouldn't be giving points to unworthy dogs. I have seen judges with hold ribbons to class dogs when they thought no dog earned it. I was iimpressed with that. I have only seen that a couple of times though sadly.

I do feel altered classes should be offered at all shows. Though I haven't seen anyone show up for them when they were held, but I think that may be due to the lack of them being offered reliably.

Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg

LOL Yes, and ummm NoIt is still for the pupose of helping to prove which dogs are worthy but is only one part of that as other variables come into play. Not all show dogs should or will be bred. A title is not an OK to breed IMO

Also many now just show for fun, but either way I feel the dogs should be show quality that are being shown in the ring. Though obviously some are not

Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg

On 12/10/2006 8:02 AM, Patch O' Pits wrote:Though some may show dogs unworthy of titles that are unaltered, it isn't fair to the people who have genuinely are showing wquality stock for the right reasons to allow it.

Exactly. Good Post!

Judges shouldn't be giving points to unworthy dogs. I have seen judges with hold ribbons to class dogs when they thought no dog earned it. I was iimpressed with that. I have only seen that a couple of times though sadly.

This is what I have been talking about. Back in the 80's this was not that uncommon. These days it's unheard of. We need some real APBT Judges who decide to put their foot down and refuse to award when the dogs aren't quality.

On 12/10/2006 8:02 AM, Patch O' Pits wrote:Though some may show dogs unworthy of titles that are unaltered, it isn't fair to the people who have genuinely are showing wquality stock for the right reasons to allow it.

Exactly. Good Post!

How so? I don't get this reasoning. So because Blackie No-Balls wins a ribbon over Sir Puppy Pumper-Outer because No-Balls has better conformation, that's somehow unfair? I don't see how that makes any sense whatsoever. If your dog isn't the best in the ring, he's shouldn't win a ribbon. Period. What does it matter what the winnner's reproductive status is? What, are we afraid of a little more competition?

On 12/10/2006 8:02 AM, Patch O' Pits wrote:Judges shouldn't be giving points to unworthy dogs. I have seen judges with hold ribbons to class dogs when they thought no dog earned it. I was iimpressed with that. I have only seen that a couple of times though sadly.

This is what I have been talking about. Back in the 80's this was not that uncommon. These days it's unheard of. We need some real APBT Judges who decide to put their foot down and refuse to award when the dogs aren't quality.

I agree that ribbons should be withheld if the dogs aren't worthy, but that doesn't happen. Adding altered dogs to the mix shouldn't change that.

I agree that ribbons should be withheld if the dogs aren't worthy, but that doesn't happen. Adding altered dogs to the mix shouldn't change that.

It does happen , I've been at shows and seen it. It just doesn't happen enough IMO. I also am disappointed that it doesn't happen more for temperament issues as well

How so? I don't get this reasoning. So because Blackie No-Balls wins a ribbon over Sir Puppy Pumper-Outer because No-Balls has better conformation, that's somehow unfair? I don't see how that makes any sense whatsoever. If your dog isn't the best in the ring, he's shouldn't win a ribbon. Period. What does it matter what the winnner's reproductive status is? What, are we afraid of a little more competition?

LOL I personally like when there is a lot of competition and have pulled my dogs when their wasn't and even canceled plans to go to shows where the event secretaries didn't think many would show. That being said conformation is supposed to be for breeding quality dogs so that status does matter. Thus that has nothing to do with ones that are spay/nuetered IMO If they want to do it for fun there are fun matches. Like others have said the people don't come out to do those fun matches any way

JMO on it

Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg

I'm all for altered dogs competing alongside intact dogs. I'm a big believer at looking at how dogs reproduce, if I'm interested in a bloodline. That includes looking at as many relatives as possible. Therese, you know 1 reason I like Patcheeno is his brother, and vice versa. Many responsible breeders will sell show quality pups into pet homes, where they are s/n. There'd be many worthy of putting into the conf ring.
Also, those of us who compete w/females know what a PITA heat cycles are. In ADBA, you cannot compete in WP or conf w/ a s/n dog, and you can't compete in anything w/a bitch in heat. I'd be fine spaying Soleil right now, as I won't be breeding her. Instead, since I'd like to try (desperately) for her Grand in UKC, and anything in ADBA, she'll probably be intact for years. I think only permitting intact dogs punishes people for being responsible.