Just for lulz I'm going to be going this way as well, together with a mate, in 2v2s.

Does anyone have any ideas on the usefulness of PotI as a talent (post-nerf) in this situation? I'm thinking it could be handy or quite pants, but it would entail me having to forego three of the talent points you would normally take in Ret (toss up between PoJ and Rule of Law). Any thoughts?

Hi everyone, here in the Pally community.I just wanted to put in my 2 cents as a Prot Paladin PVPer solely doing PVP a little under the last 2 months.So far it's been extremely fun, random BG's, and 2's arena teams. Rated BG's have been more of a pain in the ass.Sort of like the raiding level for PVP, where every player has to be 3000+ pvp with 2000+ arena team rating, and the best player in the class ever.I'd rather just play and have fun, and try to deal with the bumps in the road.Anyways, I do want to give my point of view on Prot PVPing, as most people in this discussion thread, don't know many prot pvpers in Cata 4.0.6,or they used to Prot PVP in previous expansions, patches, and arena seasons.

A lot of my prot pally stats and customizations were based on Taugrimm's website. www.taugrim.comHe has many extensive videos, detailed posts and analysis, and a plethora of avid Pally PVPers (and teammates of Prot PVPers) who make quite a nice community.

I think the problem that a lot of people have with Prot Pally PVPers, is because they are considered a DPS spec, but they cannot keep up in terms of DPS with other pure DPS PVPers such as rogues, feral druids, DKs, etc. That may be true, but we bring plenty of other attributes to the table which I believe make Prot Paladin in arena 2's or 3's, a capable and viable option. Our DG (Divine Guardian), Hand of Freedom, Hand of Sacrifice, Hand of Protection, and 3 HOP WOGs, are great for mitigation and mana-free healing. In 2's, I make it a priority to stun and slow down whoever's targeting my teammate, and keep an eye on my teammate at all times, so i can instant wog him often, and when he needs it, Divine Plea (cancel to lose the 50% healing nerf), and then heal my teammate again. I always try to WOG as much as possible early in the match, cause often, the other team doesn't try to tunnel me since I am more difficult to kill.

Usually, if the enemy team attacks me, then we'll survive and be able to mow down one of their players. I'll just pop CDs back to back while I continue to WoG myself, using stuns, rebuke, etc. and my teammate and I should have no problem on them. So of course, the other team rarely goes after me. If this is a problem for you as a prot pally. Make your decision on who to attack with your teammate, and always charge in and attack first, with your teammate behind you. Players will have a tendency to go after you since you're the closer enemy to them.;

My teammates usually consist of a Unholy DK or a Fury Warrior, so it's nice to have a dps teammate who can burst very well. Anyways, the Prot Paladin must mitigate damage to his teammate or to himself, in order to survive a match. Once we get down to 2v1, we'll never lose with my heals and wogs. Anyways, Prot Paladins must understand their dps role is primary, but not exclusive. Sometimes healing your teammate with divine lights, or anything else will help. Our worst problem is when we face 2 casters like a lock/mage, or a combination of the sort. Frost Mage/HPally is damn near impossible, and pretty frustrating.

Anyways, if people understand that having a prot pally as a primary DPSer, but also as a damage mitigating and off-healing teammate, than i think people will be more open to playing with them. Yes it is difficult for Prot Pallys to gear up, and we definitely need to increase our DPS. However, I believe it is a fun and capable class to play as or with.

I only started pvp gearing once cata hit, and I'm currently in all 352's, and the conquest wep/shield.I'm currently at 3400 Resil, about 8.5% crit, 5% hit.

As of now, I don't have any other Honor Gears to buy. I am currently waiting until next Tuesday, to get the 2-handed conquest weaponI'm gonna test out the 2-hand protadin spec (macro 1-hand/shield swap right after an ability use, and can macro switch weapons in the middle of a GCD, so not to use it. Doable, but difficult and must need a lot of practice) If the 2-hand protadin spec is only viable in BG's and not Arena, then I'll probably refund it.However, since I have no other items to get with honor points, I'm thinking of buying up the rest of my holy pvp set. I currently have the shoulder and legs (I did the double resil boost gearing early with low resil, but it hasn't made much sense lately since my STR is too low when I bump up to 3800 resil (from 3400).

Even though I haven't tried Holy Pally PVP yet, I think it makes a lot of sense if I want to further our 2's group. I can switch from protadin PVPer to HPally PVPer which could definitely mess up some teams that we face on the same day. Also, since I have nothing else to buy, I was thinking I might as well buy up the HPally set, since HPally's are so buff and probably the best single player healers right now. Tell me what you guys think about my Prot Pally, and also my ideas with possibly trying 2H Protadin, and also HPally dual speccing to Prot PVP and Holy PVP. Also, in what other ways can I upgrade my Prot PVP set? I feel like I've hit my gear ceiling, and other than waiting on conquest points, there's not much more for me to do.

calixcloud wrote:I'm gonna test out the 2-hand protadin spec (macro 1-hand/shield swap right after an ability use, and can macro switch weapons in the middle of a GCD, so not to use it. Doable, but difficult and must need a lot of practice)

I did some initial testing with 2H prot vs 1H prot, and it seemed to be pretty much a wash in terms of damage done. This was not with epic weapons, and was before they buffed CS. I felt substantially squishier -- half the armor -- and was unable to use Avenger's Shield tosses on healers when it procced. I missed that a lot. I suppose that if you're not being focused, the damage issue is less of one, but I really felt the loss of the shield toss for dealing with healers.

I believe we lose white damage when we change weapons, as it resets our swing. I could be wrong. Given how big the white hits are on a 2H, you could potentially lose a fair amount when swapping in a shield. That said, the CSes are *large* so it may not matter.

Give it a shot with 2H and tell us how it goes. I've wanted to try it, but don't have a 359 weapon. I imagine having two different CS macros and maybe two different AS macros would help -- so you can CS with the 2H twice, and then do CD/swap, ShoR/swap, CS, and use a CS/swap macro when you get a Grand Crusader proc. Tell us how it affects your burst damage -- if the damage is enough to do that, it might be viable even with an opposing healer. (It helps that your partner has a way to reduce healing or also interrupt healers. Mine has a harder time.)

It is an interesting tought. As for the lack of abilities we can use wielding a 2hander, why not just macro a weaponswap with AS? As far as te blue-2hander goes: think its still a viable way to test it on some dummies and check recount. CS's are the biggest chunk of my total damage done in arena. I dont think it will improve our burst by alot but might improve our sustained damage if we dont get focused on. A swap to an action bar with 2h-switchmacroes for when you dont get focused on pretty much negates the lack of armor since you can just swap to sword and board in those situations.Might be an interesting tought to start out with a 2h to fool them thinking youre ret so they focus on us instead of our 2v2 partners. I might actually try it with a blue weapon versus a dummy/BG to see how the switching will workout.

Also, what are your toughts on conquest points guys? I run around with 7 parts vicious, the rest is all honor gear. Somehow it feels a bit of a waste to upgrade pvp-blues to pvp-purples. I worked much harder for the blues! Especially the parts with haste/expertise which arent well itemized. If the 2handed thing seems viable I got something to aim for again but I might as well stack points... Not sure what for tho

Sleetza wrote:Somehow it feels a bit of a waste to upgrade pvp-blues to pvp-purples.

You get roughly the same resilience-per-cost upgrading almost any piece of crafted gear to the Honor gear, and almost the same resilience-per-cost when upgrading to Conquest gear from either crafted or honor gear. (Trinkets are an exception, but that's because their ONLY itemization is resilience.) So, upgrade your weakest piece, every time, unless you're specifically prioritizing Conquest for set pieces, shields, or weapons.

I have a google docs sheet that calculates the resilience-per-cost for each slot that I can share if you like. You'll need to copy it and edit it with your own "current pieces"' resilience numbers.

Sleetza wrote:Somehow it feels a bit of a waste to upgrade pvp-blues to pvp-purples.

You get roughly the same resilience-per-cost upgrading almost any piece of crafted gear to the Honor gear, and almost the same resilience-per-cost when upgrading to Conquest gear from either crafted or honor gear. (Trinkets are an exception, but that's because their ONLY itemization is resilience.) So, upgrade your weakest piece, every time, unless you're specifically prioritizing Conquest for set pieces, shields, or weapons.

I have a google docs sheet that calculates the resilience-per-cost for each slot that I can share if you like. You'll need to copy it and edit it with your own "current pieces"' resilience numbers.

Define "weakest piece"? Since I am already fully pvp-geared its not as simple as "upgrade that green ilvl 318 before the blue ilvl 342". I would love to toy around with your spreadsheet! Altho my approach is a bit different I am curious now (I prioritize items which are well itemized. E.g. I rather spend my conquestpoints on an item with sta/str/resilience/crit then on an item with sta/str/resilience/haste because 60% of that chunk of haste is largely wasted itembudget because its such a weak stat for us. My gearingapproach: dps-output>survivability because we are already tough motherf*ckers to take down. In that sense I do not prefer resilience.)

Kelaan wrote:You get roughly the same resilience-per-cost upgrading almost any piece of crafted gear to the Honor gear, and almost the same resilience-per-cost when upgrading to Conquest gear from either crafted or honor gear.... upgrade your weakest piece, every time

Define "weakest piece"? Since I am already fully pvp-geared its not as simple as "upgrade that green ilvl 318 before the blue ilvl 342".

I'm currently not well geared. My opinion is that Resilience > Itemization. I'll wear a Conquest item with Resilience/haste even if it means I lose crit or expertise. The base stamina, strength, and resilience is budgeted based solely on item level, and I can reforge other stats around later if I want to. Moreover, the Conquest items generally tend to have the same itemization as the Honor items, just with bigger numbers. (I want to say they all do, but I may be unaware of an exception.)

Honor gear is always better than crafted gear. More armor, stamina, resilience, and sockets make it a clear upgrade for almost every slot. Conquest is a clear upgrade over Honor gear. For any given Honor->Conquest upgrade, the efficiency is roughly equal for most slots.

There's my spreadsheet's read-only view. The top block of numbers was my first pass, but now I only care about the COST for the slot (out of those numbers). The lower block of numbers shows the resilience per honor (and resilience per conquest).

Going from PvE->Honor gear is ~0.095 resilience per honor.Going from Crafted->Honor point gear is ~0.0109 resilience per honor.Conclusion:Replace PvE gear before you replace stuff that already has resilience. (That doesn't apply to you, but others may find it handy. We all instinctively expect this, but it's nice to know it's true.)

Going from Honor->Conquest points is 0.0127 resilience/conquest in every slot except trinkets, which overbudget resilience. The other exceptions are shield and weapon, as there are no lower-tier equivalents with resilience. The shield is a massively efficient upgrade, resilience-wise. (And you can enchant it with disarm reduction!)Conclusion:Every Honor->Conquest upgrade is equally efficient, so it doesn't matter what you upgrade first. Choose based on itemization, set bonuses, and so on. Weapons and Shield are expensive, too, but have very good resilience/cost since it's a direct upgrade from PvE. (That said, I'm keeping my Lava Spine: Same dps stats, but no resilience.)

You can see in the right two columns on the bottom section that I have five slots which need upgrading in any variety. My conquest points are probably going to go towards either trinket (since it's 20x more resilience/point) next, or the helm. It has more of either stamina or strength (I forget which) than the engineering one, so I think it's a better option, despite a resilience cogwheel. At the same time, my honor points will be spent on either a ring or trinket first.

Isnt' the easiest macro to just have a 1-handed weapon/shield macro w/ crusader strike.And another macro with 2-handed weapon w/ crusader strike?

I kept thinking that using different weapon swaps for each special actions was too complicated.

I've been testing this out. And it's pretty easy.My mouse is a Logitech Mx1000. and my mouse wheel clicks left and right.I made the left click of my mouse wheel the 1-hand/shield crusader strike macro.I made the right click of my mouse wheel the 2-handed weapon crusader strike macro.

This way I don't have to use any other macros for AS or Shield of the Righteous.Instead, anytime I'm ready to use my Avenger's Shield, i'll just 1-handed macro crusader strike, next and use it. If i have gained 2 HOPO from 2-handed weapon crusader strike. i'll use my 1-hand/shield weapon crusader strike for the 3rd HOPO. and then I'll use my Shield of the righteous.

But also, if you have high health, and you want to continue to just keep raising your vengeance, you can just continue using the 2-handed weapon crusader strike macro, and continue WOGing.

I'm not sure if it was a good idea for me to post this. Haha.. it just seems way simpler than anything else I read about 1-hand/shield and 2-hand weapon swapping. Especially since we have no other special attack move to use to gain HOPO as Prot/Ret Pallys (Holy can gain HOPO from Holy Shock as well as CS).Let me know if my idea is too simple or just wrong. Thanks

calixcloud wrote:Isnt' the easiest macro to just have a 1-handed weapon/shield macro w/ crusader strike.And another macro with 2-handed weapon w/ crusader strike?

Somewhat. Here's my thinking.

CS with a 2H is >>> CS with a 1H, damage-wise, as it multiplies weapon damage. Thus, swapping BACK to a 2H before you cast a CS sounds good. Therefore, a macro which swaps the 2H back in after a ShoR or AS is good.

You want to use a ShoR or GC proc ASAP, which means your next ability use has to be a CS+Swap macro, or save them up and use them together.

Thanks for posting those! (Doesn't it work better if you put the /equip AFTRE the skill use? Or do I have that backwards?) The biggest benefit from it that I can think of is conceptual simplicity: You are only having to juggle choices on CS macros, rather than having to always remember "OK so I have a grand crusader proc and 3 HP, so I want to CS and then AS after, so don't use the macros that swap me back ...".

The biggest thing I can see is that it seems like I depend a LOT on Grand Crusader procs. I basically can send a shield at my focus target (a healer or caster) very frequently, and risking NOT having a shield sounds somewhat painful. It often feels like using AS to silence a damage dealer or interrupt a heal makes a noticeable difference (esp versus ret paladins ). Forgoing a shield seems to me that Definitely give it a shot, though -- if I had a 2H weapon that didn't suck, I'd be experimenting with it. Please do share the instances where you feel it works well, versus where it doesn't. I'm curious if the extra CS damage helps vs casters.

Why wouldn't you just have a /equip macro for each ability to get the most damage out of it (specifically for CS) or to ensure you can use that ability without having to think "did I switch weapons already"? If it's already got the correct item equipped, wouldn't it just ignore that part?

Example:

Avenger's Shield:/equip 1h/equip shield/cast AS

Shield of the Righteous:/equip 1h/equip shield/cast SotR

Crusader's Strike:/equip 2h/cast CS

I realize that would "eat" a lot of macro space, but then you'd never have to worry about if you have the right items equipped for each spell. The only reason I could see that being an issue is if you actually want to keep your sword & board for awhile to reduce some inc damage. In which case you could still have the 2nd CS macro.

I think the problem with that is the fact that the weapon swap (in combat) consumes a GCD, which makes macro's using a gearswitch essential "doubletap" macros (hit once to gearswap, once more to CS/AS/...), using a LOT of GCDs. You don't wanna be doing that everytime, because any advantage from 2H is going to be eaten up by that additional downtime inbetween attacks.

DexterBelgium wrote:I think the problem with that is the fact that the weapon swap (in combat) consumes a GCD, which makes macro's using a gearswitch essential "doubletap" macros (hit once to gearswap, once more to CS/AS/...), using a LOT of GCDs. You don't wanna be doing that everytime, because any advantage from 2H is going to be eaten up by that additional downtime inbetween attacks.

If you have to swap to use ability X anyway... then you aren't using any additional GCDs. Unless it still consumes the GCD when you already have the correct weapons equipped...

Example:

I've just swapped to Sword & Board to use AS. For my next GCD I want to use my 3 HP SotR before swapping back to my 2h for another CS.

Would having the /equip S&B with SotR consume an additional CD as it tries to re-equip the S&B you already have equipped? If so, then tying it together with any other ability would be a bad idea all around and you should just have one macro for equipping S&B and one for equipping the 2h.

If it doesn't affect it, then I don't understand where you're saying there are additional GCDs being eaten up, when you'd HAVE to swap to S&B for AS/SotR, and you'd likely WANT to swap to the 2h for CS. If you don't WANT to swap to a 2h for CS, then this entire discussion is moot.

You're right on the fact that it doesn't (as far as I know) eat a GCD if the items are already equipped, so indeed, "no problem there".

So the problem is not huge. But that is only if you plan on doing the whole 2h prot thing anyway, which, as one of its principal disadvantages that I can see, has that the closest thing we have to a "gap closer" on kiting casters (AS) is an extra GCD removed from us. Will depend a little whether this doesn't feel too "gappy" waiting on GCDs every once in a while.

On the other hand, I've seen people macro the gearswap AFTER skill use. I remember way back when you could swap gear while the GCD was running, which meant you effectively swapped gear without an extra GCD. I think this is the thinking behind a "CS+Gearswap" macro (rather than a "Gearswap+CS" one). That takes a little extra planning tho.

Weapon swaps will INITIATE a global cooldown, which means your AS will be delayed. However, they can happen INSIDE a global CD. So, a macro of

/cast AS/equip 2H

should still only consume one GCD, as the equip happens after AS is cast. I am pretty sure I'm correct on this, but would need to test it later to be sure. I just set up a plan weapon swap macro for mouse-up and mouse-down that I roll in the middle of GCDs, and it seems to minimize my frustration.

Very little signs of slowing down with over 85% win ratio and MMR sitting above 2k.

We've got most of the regular 2k+ combo's down pat now but just working out annoying ones like Frost Mage (overpowered anyway) Disc Priest. Ret paladins just leave when they can't get either of us below 90% HP which makes me incredibly happy.

Double DPS is usually a guaranteed win with the most difficult one being Spriest and Frost Mage but we've got some ways to work around it now. Any double DPS with a melee of any kind is completely destroyed, we just split up and keep self heals to maximum.

My partner said he's having more fun running this combo than when he was playing unholy in any setup so far and he's had 2200 in 3's before. We think our cap out will be around 2100-2200 simply due to the number of Frost Mages in 2's. We can take frost mages with another DPS but when they've got a dedicated healer it just creates issues for us. We're still working out strats and any possible changes to specs, but we seem to be working quite well with each other and the synergy between Protection Paladin and Blood Death Knight is quite surprising. I'm stacking Resil and Stam as much as I can because I tend to get focused, I glyph for SoI and WoG so my self healing and support healing is as high as I can get it. My resil is only 3300 currently and my partner is over 3500. Once I catch up and hit close to 3700 with full epics I think we'll be much more meaty.

Special Note : The 'change' to Vengeance is annoying against some classes, I'd rather not divulge into details in case these classes browse the forums!

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

What would you suggest for a 3v3 team (or 5v5) with a prot paladin in it? I've been wanting to PvP with one of the things that synergize well with a prot paladin -- blood DK, a melee class, but fear that it may only work well in 2v2. Currently, I am teamed with a hunter friend in guild, and I don't want to drop him despite what seems like poor class synergy.

Right now my options seem to be to do 3s with my hunter friend (and a healer? Another DPS since mine is low?) and find a synergistic 2s teammate on trade chat, or look for 3v3 team on trade chat (or in guild). Biggest problems seem to be that I have no idea what synergizes well in the 3v3 bracket, and finding people in guild with a remotely similar schedule as me. I'd love to hear your insights into what you think would work well.

Right now I have moderate interest from an arms warrior, a hunter, a disc/shadow priest, and a resto druid who has no resilience. Do you think that'd work even remotely well in 5v5?

Hi Kelaan, did you think of using a Feral Druid in 3's with a Blood DK? That's probably what my 2's partner and I will be trying at some point, just blow all our CD's and try and nuke down one person. If it looks like it's going south then just turtle up as best as we can with my WoG's on the focus target. Stacking Necrotic Strikes with Dancing Rune Weapon and stunning/silencing healers etc. We might give it a shot this weekend, we aren't sure though because we're honestly having so much fun being as annoying as we possibly can in 2's. Had more ret paladins AFK from us kiting them with Chains/AS and just staying in the judgment deadzone lol!

I haven't really had much time to try other makeups but I think a Blood DK is the best partner we can get, they deal reasonable damage and have equal or even better survival than we do. Their abilities go quite well with ours, they have a snare and grip which helps bring people back to us for even more control. Their Necrotic Strike is amazing against healers who are in a tight spot right after a HoJ or Grip. The other important thing that goes so well with a Blood DK is that if melee decides to focus them, they'll be in such a sorry state of mind due to the absorb from their Death Strike giving them Blood Shield.

In this combo I'm usually the focus target so I've decided to bottle up and stack as much resil and stam as I can get. SoI is glyphed and we usually run in with it active just in case it's a double DPS and I need to start spamming self heals. The Divine Plea macro is a godsend for this, free 3 Holy Power for WoG is a must on so many combo's it's not even funny. We're somewhat crippled against priest shields however because the absorb effect won't let SoI proc (Which I think is either a bug, or incredibly stupid since all our other seals proc from absorbs).

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Vort wrote:Hi Kelaan, did you think of using a Feral Druid in 3's with a Blood DK?

I ran last night with arms + tree, and it was surprisingly effective. I basically propped up our tree when they got focused. Our losses were to a GOOD double-DPS team that were really fast on swapping targets (and chained CCs etc) - we just couldn't outdo their damage, and I was perma-snared from Desecration. Our other loss was to a double-healer team (enhance/holy pally/disc priest) that we Just. Could. Not. Kill. It was not pretty at all.

I'm not looking forward to 4.1's changes. I use Word of Glory just about all the time to keep my partner(s) alive. On the other hand, now that I'm expertise and hit capped, I'm going to do more damage.

I'm still quite skeptical of the 4.1 WoG change going through. Kind of makes the concept of it useless for PVP as anything other than holy.

Scum Cleave got 2200 last night, but we got a few bad combo's after that and went back down to 2158

I'm still kind of curious why they don't let you get the 2200 gear from 2's, not so much the new weapons but just the different colored armor. Is it that big of a deal?

EDIT: 26/02/11

Got our team back above 2200 for my Death Knight partner since he needed the achievement. Still going strong, but mostly going to just play for points each week now, and see how we go and if teams are good we'll try and push.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.

Vort wrote:I'm still quite skeptical of the 4.1 WoG change going through. Kind of makes the concept of it useless for PVP as anything other than holy.

I experiemented with avoiding using WoG on Friday, and instead using my holy power on damage, when I did matches with my hunter partner. It seemed to actually work out fairly decently still - It's much more of a DPS race, and using damage reduction cooldowns (and a BoP on him ) seemed to work out semi-decently. I hope we can play more tonight in order to get rating > 1500.

Scum Cleave got 2200 last night, but we got a few bad combo's after that and went back down to 2158

So far I have played with a rogue, enhancement shaman, boomkin and a resto druid. Biggest problem when playing dual dps is my partner dying due burst and with resto I cant kill shit if they have a healer-combo. Dps I run with has 2700-3000 resilience, which seems to be too low to be viable above 1600 rating.

Scum Cleave is his arena team's name (given to him by someone that called the composition that...) Based on what I've been reading, it's Prot pally and Blood DK. With the "nerf" to WoG, we'll see if it still holds up as well.

Scum Cleave was the nickname given to our team makeup by my partners friend, due to us being a very annoying and 'SCUMMY' combo. The actual team name is "Shield Block Goes On 6". We play Protection Paladin and Blood Death Knight, the reason for this was at first a joke but we found that we could survive through most double dps teams quite well and when required we could burst teams down and control a fight reasonably well.

Using WoG instead of SotR is critical in this team, I make sure we're both topped whenever possible and during stuns we push back the healer or just stay alive in whatever way we can. SotR is only used as a burst when we're both topped, the last thing we want is to be put on the back foot and fall behind on our HP.

4.1 WoG change will kill the team, Blood DK's already have just as strong if not stronger survivability in pvp than Protection Paladins and I'm the one getting nerfed incredibly hard. Looks like patch notes also just updated to say the DK Blood Shield will only work in Blood Presence, this is an issue truth be told but nothing like the issue I face with a 20 second WoG. I dislike the change because it's only fixing a side-effect of a much greater problem in PVE.

We're back at 2203 now, it's good fun still but if the WoG change goes through (like I said previously many times) we cannot possibly compete anymore.

These changes suggest that some people QQ'd about coming up against our team tbh

If you do have any questions about the team makeup just send me a tell.

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.