K3b and OpenSuse 10.3 - Suse

This is a discussion on K3b and OpenSuse 10.3 - Suse ; On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:44:51 +0000, Mark Madsen wrote:
>
> That could be awkward, in some distros cdrecord is a link to wodim:
If you use K3B then it can specify the order of the search path so ...

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

Hmm, the code is released under the GPL but they're not FOSS supporters.
>>> and it is bad to see that companies like Novel/Suse follow them.
>>>
>>
>>i slowed the DVD down to 4x as was suggested in another group and it
>>started burning just fine. I may have done that before and just don't
>>recall as I normally use it about once every 9 months or so when the new
>>OpenSuse GM dvd is ready. Thanks for all the suggestions.
>
>What do you get with cdrecord -atip with the medium you used?

Does play audio CDs
Number of volume control levels: 256
Does support individual volume control setting for each channel
Does support independent mute setting for each channel
Does not support digital output on port 1
Does not support digital output on port 2

Loading mechanism type: tray
Does support ejection of CD via START/STOP command
Does not lock media on power up via prevent jumper
Does allow media to be locked in the drive via PREVENT/ALLOW command
Is not currently in a media-locked state
Does not support changing side of disk
Does not have load-empty-slot-in-changer feature
Does not support Individual Disk Present feature

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-
>If you only tro to do one of the few supported things from wodim it may
>work,

Does work. It's not yet failed with me and my systems. That doesn't mean
that it'll work on other peoples systems, but it does work for me.
>but note that the fact that wodim does not support the -atip option
>with DVDs

As to whether this is useful or not, so far wodim hasn't had a problem
writing to DVDs on my systems.
>verifies that wodim uses guessed parameters instead of parameters
>retrieved from your medium. Cdrecord correctly parameterises the values
>since March 1998. Wodim ripped off working DVD support and replaced it by
>simple and half baken code.

For half-baked code, it sure seems to do the job. And even if it didn't,
I don't need to use either wodim or cdrecord as growisofs is quite
capable of writing DVDs.
>>[0] apart from the fact that the system is too slow to write at anything
>>faster that 4x without suffering from many buffer underruns.
>
>As you do not give any information on your problem, nobody can help you
>with this problem.

I stated that the system I used is too slow to use at anything higher
than a 4x write speed, and if there is a problem it is purely down to
that. I didn't say that I had a problem with this, as I don't. However,
to fill you in on why the system is too slow to handle more that a 4x
write speed, here's the hardware details:

The system in question is a 1998 G3 iMac running at a whopping 333Mz.
The CD ROM drive has been replaced with a DVD writer and the original
6GB hard drive has been replaced by a 160GB drive.

With this system, the limiting factor is the IDE bus which tops out at
around 6.7MB/s. Since there is no possibility of speeding it up, there
is no solution to this other than to limit the write speed.

Using growisofs, since it's kind enough to be quite verbose while
writing to disc, here's the output writing the 10.3-PPC-DVD.iso to an 8x
capable blank disc:

As you can see, the IDE bus can't keep up with the drive write speed and
so, without scrapping that system, limiting the write speed is the only
workable option. And all that means is that I have to wait another 7 or
8 minutes for the disc to complete writing. Not exactly a long time, and
I can always find something to do during that time.

There's a LOT of history that isn't present in either "faq" (things
erased from history due to embarrassment I suppose).

Joerg is correct in that his packages are well maintained.

Some of us, of course, had to pay for the privilege... some of
us remember historical things that have been sanitized from the
"faq". :-) Some of us helped fund the hammer that kept slamming
us on the head... live an learn. But with that said, it's a
free country (well... my country is anyway) and I do believe
that people can change and no... I don't expect them to apologize
for past behaviors or their inconsistent viewpoints.... the important
thing is where they are right now.

Right now, cdrtools is free (Joerg's hatred of Linux aside). And you
do have a choice.

People who attack free software cannot be FOSS supporters.
The few people from Debian that created the "fork" started to attack the
free cdrtools project about 3 years ago. As a reesult of the FUD they did
spread on the GPL, the license for cdrtools has been changed to a license
that gives more freedom
>>>> and it is bad to see that companies like Novel/Suse follow them.
>>>>
>>>
>>>i slowed the DVD down to 4x as was suggested in another group and it
>>>started burning just fine. I may have done that before and just don't
>>>recall as I normally use it about once every 9 months or so when the new
>>>OpenSuse GM dvd is ready. Thanks for all the suggestions.
>>
>>What do you get with cdrecord -atip with the medium you used?
>
>On mine I get:
>
>davjam@lion:~> cdrecord -atip
>Device was not specified. Trying to find an appropriate drive...
>Detected CD-R drive: /dev/cdrw
>Using /dev/cdrom of unknown capabilities
>Device type : Removable CD-ROM
>Version : 0
>Response Format: 2
>Capabilities :
>Vendor_info : 'MAT****A'
>Identification : 'UJ-840D '
>Revision : '1.02'
>Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD-R/DVD-RW.
>Using generic SCSI-3/mmc DVD-R(W) driver (mmc_mdvd).
>Driver flags : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE
>Supported modes: PACKET SAO
>HINT: use dvd+rw-mediainfo from dvd+rw-tools for information extraction.

This is NOT cdrecord but the defective fork that does not support DVDs

For this reason, I _explicitly_ asked you for the output from the the official
cdrecord. Are you interested in help? Then you should listen to me....

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

In article <1193787104.16456.171.camel@behemoth.csg.stercomm.c om>,
Chris Cox wrote:
>There's a LOT of history that isn't present in either "faq" (things
>erased from history due to embarrassment I suppose).

The people around mr. Bloch try to avoid talking about the fact that
they initiated the problem by attacking a free software project.

>Joerg is correct in that his packages are well maintained.
>
>Some of us, of course, had to pay for the privilege... some of

Do you like to spread FUD?
>us remember historical things that have been sanitized from the
>"faq". :-) Some of us helped fund the hammer that kept slamming
>us on the head... live an learn. But with that said, it's a
>free country (well... my country is anyway) and I do believe
>that people can change and no... I don't expect them to apologize
>for past behaviors or their inconsistent viewpoints.... the important
>thing is where they are right now.

It is funny to see that the Linux kernel people now understand that
their view from the past was inconsistent....
>Right now, cdrtools is free (Joerg's hatred of Linux aside). And you
>do have a choice.

Cdrtools is free _and_ was _always_ free and I have no hate against Linux.
I am a supporter of FOSS since more than 20 years, don't try to confuse me
with people who recently started FOSS and still need to learn the background.

There definitely was hate from Linus Torvalds against me - I don't know why...
And there is hate from Mr. Bloch that created the fork. Now the fork is dead
since 6 months. Can hate create free software? I believe no!

Free Linux distributions realized that forcing users to a defective fork
is not freedom and give their user the choice to use the maintained and free
original software. Ubuntu did get rif of all bugs in their database after
providing cdrtols again.

And the output from wodim using the -atip option.
>This is NOT cdrecord, this is a defective fork that does not support DVDs.

Yes, it's from wodim.
>Why don't you read that I wrote?

I did. And that's why I posted the output.
>I asked for the output from the official program.

You said that wodim didn't support the -atip option. That appears not to
be that case, as wodim didn't return an error saying the option was
unsupported. It also didn't supply the same media information as
cdrtools, as shown here:

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-
>In article ,
>David Bolt wrote:
>>On Tue, 30 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-
>>Hmm, the code is released under the GPL but they're not FOSS supporters.
>
>People who attack free software cannot be FOSS supporters.
>The few people from Debian that created the "fork" started to attack the
>free cdrtools project about 3 years ago. As a reesult of the FUD they did
>spread on the GPL, the license for cdrtools has been changed to a license
>that gives more freedom

And less. The present license for cdrtools is incompatible with the GPL,
which means code from the present releases of cdrtools can't be used in
GPL software. You should already know that, since that was the intention
behind the writing of the CDDL as stated by Sun.

>>>What do you get with cdrecord -atip with the medium you used?
>>
>>On mine I get:

>This is NOT cdrecord but the defective fork that does not support DVDs

For a defective fork, it certainly does the job here.
>For this reason, I _explicitly_ asked you for the output from the the official
>cdrecord. Are you interested in help?

I think you've got me mistaken for:

1, someone that actually needs some help with CD/DVD burning;
2, someone that gives a crap about your apparent "feud" with the cdrkit
maintainers;

And before you say you don't have a "feud" with the cdrkit maintainers,
it appears that every time you mention wodim/cdrkit, you point out how
that software is broken and/or unmaintained. It wouldn't also surprise
me if, at some other point in time, you claim it's illegal as it
breaches the GPL and/or copyright law, as you previously did with SUSE's
patched version of cdrtools.
>Then you should listen to me....

Maybe you should read what was written, including by yourself. You
posted that wodim doesn't support the -atip option with DVDs. I showed
it does. It doesn't provide the same details as cdrecord, but it does
provide output. It also says which program to use to get the media info
that cdrtools provides.

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

In article ,
David Bolt wrote:
>>Then you should listen to me....
>
>Maybe you should read what was written, including by yourself. You
>posted that wodim doesn't support the -atip option with DVDs. I showed
>it does. It doesn't provide the same details as cdrecord, but it does
>provide output. It also says which program to use to get the media info
>that cdrtools provides.

What do you expect from writing such obvious lies?

Your posting _did_ prove that wodim does _not_ support -atip for DVDs.
Now you claim that it does? This is childish. Do you like help or do you like
to start a fight?

....
>You said that wodim didn't support the -atip option. That appears not to
>be that case, as wodim didn't return an error saying the option was

This is childish FUD.
>And, as suggested by the wodim output, here's the output from
>dvd+rw-mediainfo:
....
>While not the same, it does provide some output that is similar to that
>produced by cdrecord. It also provides some info that cdrecord doesn't
>supply, and doesn't provide some that cdrecord does.

What do you expect from spreadin this disinformation?

Cdrecord of course gives this information!

I did tell you to run:

cdrecord -atip
cdrecord -minfo
cdrecord -prcap

The fact that dvd+rw-mediainfo mixes a subset of the output from
three different cdrecord commands into a simplified output does
not verifiy that cdrecord is missing information. Wodim on the other
side does not support DVDs and you proved that by sending the wodim
output.

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-

>Your posting _did_ prove that wodim does _not_ support -atip for DVDs.

It doesn't provide *the same support* for DVDs as cdrecord. That is not
in dispute. Your claim was that wodim didn't support it is because it
doesn't provide the same information as cdrecord. Just because it
doesn't produce the same output doesn't mean it isn't supported.
>Now you claim that it does? This is childish.

I'll agree with this. It is decidedly childish and, at the very least, I
should know better.
>Do you like help or do you like
>to start a fight?

The OP posted that they couldn't burn DVDs using k3b on 10.3. I posted
that I can, which means it's something specific to the OPs system, quite
probably device permissions.

And, this doesn't really have much to do cdrecord or wodim anyway. When
burning DVDs, k3b uses growisofs.

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-

>Despite the fact that you tried to use this discussion to spread FUD against
>cdrtools, let me comment this media info:

I didn't say a thing about cdrecord. I was commenting on how wodim does
have support for DVDs. It may not be as complete as cdrecord but, as I
mention in a reply I made a few minutes ago, k3b doesn't use cdrecord or
wodim for writing DVDs. It uses growisofs, which in turn uses
genisoimage, as can be seen here:

>wodim does have some extremely simple DVD-R support and broken DVD+R
>support.

FSVO broken that appears to be adequately capable of correctly writing
to DVD+/-R(W).
>Tajo Yuden is known to be a high quality manufacturer. I asume that
>the real cdrecord works find with this medium unless your drive has problems.

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

Joerg Schilling wrote:
> In article <1193787104.16456.171.camel@behemoth.csg.stercomm.c om>,
> Chris Cox wrote:
>
>> There's a LOT of history that isn't present in either "faq" (things
>> erased from history due to embarrassment I suppose).
>
> The people around mr. Bloch try to avoid talking about the fact that
> they initiated the problem by attacking a free software project.
>
>
>> Joerg is correct in that his packages are well maintained.
>>
>> Some of us, of course, had to pay for the privilege... some of
>
> Do you like to spread FUD?

Ok...
>
>> us remember historical things that have been sanitized from the
>> "faq". :-) Some of us helped fund the hammer that kept slamming
>> us on the head... live an learn. But with that said, it's a
>> free country (well... my country is anyway) and I do believe
>> that people can change and no... I don't expect them to apologize
>> for past behaviors or their inconsistent viewpoints.... the important
>> thing is where they are right now.
>
> It is funny to see that the Linux kernel people now understand that
> their view from the past was inconsistent....
>
>> Right now, cdrtools is free (Joerg's hatred of Linux aside). And you
>> do have a choice.
>
> Cdrtools is free _and_ was _always_ free and I have no hate against Linux.
> I am a supporter of FOSS since more than 20 years, don't try to confuse me
> with people who recently started FOSS and still need to learn the background.

What did you do with all of the $100 payments for the unrestricted (key)
version of cdrecord-proDVD (available only as a binary)? Or is that
FUD?? Sorry. Maybe I just don't remember things as clearly as
you do.

It was a long time ago (well.. in internet time)... no harm done.
I apologize for spreading FUD. Wasn't my intention. Just want
to make sure that the whole story is told.

> http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/linux-dist.html
>
> There definitely was hate from Linus Torvalds against me - I don't know why...
> And there is hate from Mr. Bloch that created the fork. Now the fork is dead
> since 6 months. Can hate create free software? I believe no!

I think a lot has to do with attitude. But who knows. You're obviously
a very friendly guy. Sometimes the things we do and say, or the way
we react to things determines how we are perceived.
>
> Free Linux distributions realized that forcing users to a defective fork
> is not freedom and give their user the choice to use the maintained and free
> original software. Ubuntu did get rif of all bugs in their database after
> providing cdrtols again.
>

I don't think anything in Linux is "forced". We have Solaris for that.
(sorry, had to say that one) :-)

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

In article <5HrsaerhSLKHFwA1@dev.null.davjam.org>,
David Bolt wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-
>
>
>
>>Your posting _did_ prove that wodim does _not_ support -atip for DVDs.
>
>It doesn't provide *the same support* for DVDs as cdrecord. That is not
>in dispute. Your claim was that wodim didn't support it is because it
>doesn't provide the same information as cdrecord. Just because it
>doesn't produce the same output doesn't mean it isn't supported.

A really strange claim from you!

wodim does not output anything related to the information on the
medium when calling wodim with -atip and you still try to tell us
it supprts DVDs?

As I mentioned more than once: the information cdrecord shows with -atip
is needed to write DVDs correctly. A program that does not support
to retrieve the related information cannot correctly support DVDs.

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote:-
>In article <5HrsaerhSLKHFwA1@dev.null.davjam.org>,
>David Bolt wrote:
>>It doesn't provide *the same support* for DVDs as cdrecord. That is not
>>in dispute. Your claim was that wodim didn't support it is because it
>>doesn't provide the same information as cdrecord. Just because it
>>doesn't produce the same output doesn't mean it isn't supported.
>
>A really strange claim from you!

If it didn't support writing to DVDs, I wouldn't be able to write to a
DVD using wodim. Since I can write to DVD using wodim, and I use almost
exclusively DVD+Rs, there must be DVD support in wodim.
>wodim does not output anything related to the information on the
>medium when calling wodim with -atip and you still try to tell us
>it supprts DVDs?

As mentioned above, wodim has write support for DVDs, which you claim it
doesn't have.
>As I mentioned more than once: the information cdrecord shows with -atip
>is needed to write DVDs correctly. A program that does not support
>to retrieve the related information cannot correctly support DVDs.

It has enough support to correctly write DVDs. Over the past several
days I've written enough DVD using both wodim and cdrecord to know that,
as far as I'm concerned, and the successfully written discs, there
doesn't appear to be any difference.

Re: K3b and OpenSuse 10.3

In article <1193933737.8972.21.camel@behemoth.csg.stercomm.com>,
Chris Cox wrote:
>> It is interesting to see that you claim wrong things that
>> people who _read_
>>
>> http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/priva...ource-why.html
>>
>> would immediately identify as being wrong. A NDA prevented me from
>> publishing the source but the code has been freely available to you.
>> Please do not try again to spread FUD.
>
>But back then, you NEVER (afaik) said a word about why you pulled
>the source back and made it non-free. You just did it.
>You don't have to give the reasons why... but if you had back
>then, I think people wouldn't have been so upset and all of
>the desires to fork would have never occurred (perhaps?).
>
>Again... I'm really NOT trying to spread FUD. Do feel free
>to correct any of this.

Why then _do_ you spread FUD?

I did never pull back the source!

I did never make cdrecord non-free.

>> I would asume the personal offenses that Linus Toravalds send against me is
>> more than just "atittude"...
>>
>
>Linux does have an attitude... that's for sure! Didn't know he was
>trying hurl personal attacks against you. That's bad form. BUT,
>you know, Linux and Linus are somewhat joined at the hip, and you
>have been known to say some nasty things (and you still do afaik)
>about Linux. He probably took some of those things too personally.
>Just a guess. Not trying to excuse anything bad that Linus may
>have said to you...

???

It is bad to see that people on LKML who are publically known attack
other people. It is even worse if this is done by Mr. Torvalds.