It’s been 11 years since heavyweight champion Lennox Lewis turned back the challenge of the emerging Vitali Klitschko, way back in June of 2003.

Lewis-Klitschko was a very fan-friendly and action-packed bout for the six rounds it lasted. Klitschko actually got the better of the ill-prepared Lewis. When the fight was stopped after the sixth round due to Klitschko’s severely cut and injured left eye, he was leading on all three judges’ cards, 58-56. And since then many have speculated who would’ve won had the fight continued. However, fighters being cut during a bout is nothing new in boxing. Vitali was never cut that bad before or after fighting Lewis – so it must be noted that Lennox really nailed Vitali with a monumental right hand to gash him the way he did. That’s boxing.

Well, in the 11 plus years since Lewis-Klitschko, Vitali and his younger brother Wladimir have dominated the heavyweight division. Since June of 2003, Vitali compiled a record of 13-0 (10) and he didn’t fight for nearly four years between 2004 and 2008. Over that same course of time, Wladimir has gone 23-1 (16). That’s a combined 36-1 (26) since Lennox Lewis, who was clearly the alpha fighter in the division, retired and smartly never once really flirted with making a comeback.

Many observers and fans continue to refuse to give the Klitschkos the due props they deserve and have earned in the ring as professional fighters. But in reality both Vitali and Wladimir are extremely formidable boxers. They’re both very tall and strong and always in top shape. They can box and punch and above all else, they’re very proficient at utilizing their height, reach and unorthodox style. In other words, they were/are more than a tall order for their opponents.

That’s all fine and good. Now the question becomes: If Vitali and Wladimir are the two best heavyweights of the past 10 years—and who would argue that?–who is the third best heavyweight of the last 10 years?

That is a question that is not only impossible to answer, it’s almost unprecedented regarding the top three or perhaps four heavyweights in any decade since the second half of the 20th century.

During the 1950s, Rocky Marciano emerged as the greatest heavyweight, followed by “Jersey” Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. Muhammad Ali was the king of the 1960s followed closely by Sonny Liston and “Smokin” Joe Frazier. The 1970s were again owned by Ali, only exchange Liston with George Foreman and Frazier again finishing in the money. Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson owned the 1980s with fighters like Tim Witherspoon, Michael Dokes, Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas, along with one or two others fighting it out for 3rd, 4th and 5th best. Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe and Mike Tyson were clearly the best of the best during the 1990s. Compiling the list of the top three or four heavyweights of each decade circa 1950-1999 was easy and didn’t require much more than memory. This is a task much tougher when it comes to trying to list the top three heavyweights during the years 2003-2014. We know the top two, but three? That’s a toughie…

Granted, it would be easy to list the three best heavyweights in between 2000-2009. That list would read Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitscho followed by Wladimir Klitschko. The problem with that is, Lewis never fought again after mid-2003. So if we’re looking back over the last 11 calendar years, we can’t include Lennox. If we try to list the top three heavyweights since Lewis retired, I can’t come up with the fighter who a bullet-proof case to occupy the third slot. Can you?

The fact that there isn’t one clear candidate to rank as the third best heavyweight of the last 11 years adds credence to the fact that the era in which the brothers have dominated is/was very pedestrian, and that’s being nice. Any fighter that you name, it can be said about them, “Sure, they didn’t compete with either Vitali or Wladimir, but neither did anyone else.” And that’s a fair point. The problem with that is, you can’t say that Manuel Charr, Derek Chisora or Odlanier Solis were all that impressive and stood out in any of their other bouts before or after their fight with Vitali. And the same thing can be said about Alex Leapai, Alexander Povetkin, Mariusz Wach and Tony Thompson before or after they fought Wladimir.

Again, the opponents who challenged Vitali and Wladimir for their titles in most cases failed miserably. And that’s because both brothers were/are that outstanding and formidable. My indictment on the era is based on how their opponents looked when they fought other opponents excluding Vitali and Wladimir. The reality of it is, only David Haye, who is an over-fed cruiserweight, looked impressive a few times before and after losing a lopsided decision to Wladmir Klitschko a little over three years ago. And Haye is a legitimately good fighter who was at or near his prime when he fought Wladimir. Haye would probably be favored over any opponent either brother fought on the night they faced them starting in late 2003 or early 2004.

It’s amazing that there are no heavyweights in the last eleven years who warrant serious consideration as to who the third best heavyweight over that time period is. That says a lot for how soft the era was/is. And it also says something on behalf of both brothers – and that they did what they were supposed to do when confronted by limited opposition… and that’s dominate an overwhelming majority of the time.

However, the era will be remembered just as much for its ineptness as much as the Klitschko’s domination. Regardless of how one evaluates Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko regarding their ring superiority, it’s very damning that most respected boxing historians living today need to look on Boxrec to try and remember who they fought in trying to find one outstanding opponent who contended for the heavyweight title between the years 2004-2014.

COMMENTS

-brownsugar :

I hate to sound negative but does it really matter.... I say let's put the last 15 year drought of talent behind us and focus on who will emerge as the king after the wake of the KBrothers.
There is new life forming in the heavyweight division...I think it will eventually reclaim its position of prominence in a few years.

-Radam G :

I hate to sound negative but does it really matter.... I say let's put the last 15 year drought of talent behind us and focus on who will emerge as the king after the wake of the KBrothers.
There is new life forming in the heavyweight division...I think it will eventually reclaim its position of prominence in a few years.

What pugs are in that new life that is forming? Holla!

-SouthPawFlo :

With the rise of the MMA/UFC a lot of the big guys went that route instead of the sweet science...

-Radam G :

With the rise of the MMA/UFC a lot of the big guys went that route instead of the sweet science...

Wow! Thanks for that. Those big guys that went the route to the MMA/UFC would be easy matches for even the saddest big guys of nowadays professional pugilism. Holla!

-brownsugar :

What pugs are in that new life that is forming? Holla!

Any of them RG...pick one,... Would be more entertaining than what we had over the last decade.
No disrespect to the KBrothers. But a change is good.

-the Roast :

I'd go Sam Peter or maybe Seth Mitchell. Henry Akinwande was from the last fifteen years right?

-vjoe :

Maybe the discussion would have more legs if the question was "who could/should have been number 3?" as this has been an era of a lot of folks appearing to just show up to get their paycheck once actually in the ring with the K-bros. Who could have given them a run for their money had they'd come into the fight in absolutely top shape physically and mentally. A couple did this once (corey sanders, lamon brewster, samuel peters) with either success or an excellent showing, but then for whatever reason didn't show up with their A game in subsequent fights. Maybe this is the greatest attribute of the K-bros and others who manage to hold onto titles.....they almost always bring their A game (tho one could argue that sanders/brewster/peters had some of their success because they were overlooked).

-Froggy :

I'd go Sam Peter or maybe Seth Mitchell. Henry Akinwande was from the last fifteen years right?

Sam Peter .

-deepwater2 :

Seth Mitchell was better football player then boxer.. Sam Peter was a strong but limited fighter. I thought Toney outclassed him easily in their first fight and did well the second time.
In fact I would rate fat cigar chomping Toney ahead of most. He knocked out Holyfield, beat Rahman,shutout young Dominic Quinn,out boxed and beat Ruiz and beat Fast Fres. Toney has embarrassed himself recently but he did a great job considering he was a blown up 160 lb champ. He may be fat and overweight but the skills that Miller taught him are old school great.

-Froggy :

Seth Mitchell was better football player then boxer.. Sam Peter was a strong but limited fighter. I thought Toney outclassed him easily in their first fight and did well the second time.
In fact I would rate fat cigar chomping Toney ahead of most. He knocked out Holyfield, beat Rahman,shutout young Dominic Quinn,out boxed and beat Ruiz and beat Fast Fres. Toney has embarrassed himself recently but he did a great job considering he was a blown up 160 lb champ. He may be fat and overweight but the skills that Miller taught him are old school great.

Very good points ! How do you think he could have done against either Klitschko !

-yomi :

Thought provoking piece, I thank the author for giving me (yet) another angle from which to antogonise all those 'K' brother fan boys out there.
Agree with @vjoe: this era has been notable for "contenders" who build up long unbeaten runs before getting their shot, taking their money and serving up a big bowl of flat footed nothing on fight night.
Not so sure if all the big guys are going to MMA/UFC (I've heard that UFC lacks talent at HW, too). I sometimes look at guys like Lebron James or Shaq and think: "If he'd be born in the 50's he probably would've taken up boxing instead".

-Kid Blast :

Haye?

-brownsugar :

The sad truth is 3rd place is interchangeable.... Whomever you pick is still a sad representative of the sport. .....Or rather I should say, sad competition for either Klitschko.
Whether its Haye, Tony Thompson, Provetkin, Chaegev, Ibragamov, Briggs, Areola, Adamek, Solis...the list goes on.
Show me one heavy who can move, jab, or has enough in the tank to pour it on in the 15th round or slice open the skin around the orbital bone with a jab in the late rounds
Forget the 15th round.....who can go a strong for twelve rounds?
I don't blame the KBrothers but for over a decade we've been stuck with an extremely unremarkable division.
Its almost as if mediocrity has become part of the fabric of the heavyweight culture.
Now we have a new wave of giants and unsung prospects who are still just babes by comparison. From all over the world.
Stiverne vs Areola was a step in the right direction to bring back the heavyweight excitement.
Wilder vs Stiverne is another step.
Unless you live in Berlin you should be glad that the ultra efficient reign of the KBrothers dynasty is about to end.
Although Wlad looks like he could last as long as Mayweather... Possibly longer.. He will probably bow out gracefully due to technical superiority over the whole division.
Thankfully... The utter weakness and ineptitude of the heavyweight division has allowed me appreciate the lighter weight classes.
But whoever's face you choose to frame as 3rd place to the KBros would only be the face of lowered expectations and mediocrity.
Im hopeful that the evolution of the heavyweight division has more in store.

-The Commish :

Very good points ! How do you think he could have done against either Klitschko !

I think James Toney would have lost to Wladimir Klitschko, but frustrated the hell out of him. Wlad would have been holding and leaning on him all night long. If Wlad did stop him, it would be very late.
Most viewers would have been asleep long before Toney!
-Randy G.

-Domenic :

Ike Ibeabuchi. As a fan of the heavyweights, I'd love a parallel universe where this guy was in the mix with Lewis and the Klitschkos. I'm optimistic about the division post-Klitschko, even if it's foolish optimism. I miss the inimitable electricity of a big-time heavyweight title fight. It hasn't happened since Lewis-Klitschko, and that was by mistake, as VK was then considered fragile (Byrd fight), and was a late substitute for Kirk Johnson. The fight aired on regular HBO.

-the Roast :

For the record I was joking about Seth Mitchell, Henry Akinwande and maybe Sam Peter too. Sam was a big puncher but he fizzled out. I don't think James Toney would have beaten the K Bros. He was skilled but he just ate himself up to Heavyweight. I can't put Ike Ibeabuchi up there based on one fight. His career ending the way it did meant we will never know. He might have gone in the crapper. To assume he would have been great is too James Dean, too Salvador Sanchez. Just because they died young doesn't mean they wouldn't have made bad movies or lost to Eusebio Pedroza.
I got nobody for the third best of the era.

-hurah :

It's real easy to see who the number threes, fours, etc. were. Look at the forgotten champions of the era. Chris Byrd is one such. He had 8 title fights. Rocky Marciano had 7, for example. Chris Byrd had a record of 6 and 2 in title fights, but he only lost to one person in the 2 losses, Wladimir Klitschko. He took the IBF title when he beat and dominated Evandar Holyfield. Holyfield could barely lay a glove on him. In title fights he beat Holyfield, Vitali Klitschko, and Golota. That's 3 good names. Marciano also only had 3 good names in title fights, ie., Ezzard Charles twice, Jersey Joe Walcott twice, and light heavyweight Archie Moore.
And there are many more forgotten champions. Those forgotten champions and fighters handled and beat the champions of the previous era. Thus disproving the idea of Mr. Lotierzo that the past decade has been weak. We didn't need Klitschko to take out Holyfield because Byrd and Ibragimov already beat him. We didn't need Klitschko to take out Riddick Bowe, because Golota had already demonstrated how beatable Bowe was. We never got Klitschko to knock out Tyson, because Danny Williams knocked him out before Klitschko could get to him. George Foreman never fought a Klitschko, because when he lost to Shannon Briggs that was the end of his career. Even John Ruiz, who like Larry Holmes lost to a light heavyweight champion, held his own against Holyfield.
Look to the forgotten champions of the 2000's and 2010's if you want the real story of the heavyweight division. Yeah, they didn't beat the Klitschkos, but few have. Wladimir is closing in on Joe Louis's record of 27 total title fights. Wladimir's next fight against Pulev will be his 26th title fight. Only Louis will have more and maybe not for long.

-amayseng :

WOW, after reading and trying to dissect a #3 this just became depressing.
I would say possibly Chris Byrd but can not remember his last winning fight.
James Toney was just too small in height and length for Vitali but would have given Wlad problems inside, but to win that one would be a tall order, literally and figuratively.
Haye is also a consideration but he **** the bed terribly against Wlad. That was a sad display, he didn't even show up.
Sam Peter had a good run and should be considered, even though Toney gave him hell their first fight.

-mortcola :

Gotta hand it to you guys for taking the question seriously. Only a few mentions of “entertainment” value. Another question is, do we have trouble rating all those Europeans because we just didn’t get to see them much the way we all saw Page, Pinklon, Witherspoon, etc? Is any one of them as good as or better than, say, Gerrie Coetzee, who sometimes had a really good showing against a true top-threer, but could be outboxed and outworked on the right day. Is it s MEDIA problem, or a boxing problem, or both?

-The Commish :

Thought provoking piece, I thank the author for giving me (yet) another angle from which to antogonise all those 'K' brother fan boys out there.
Agree with @vjoe: this era has been notable for "contenders" who build up long unbeaten runs before getting their shot, taking their money and serving up a big bowl of flat footed nothing on fight night.
Not so sure if all the big guys are going to MMA/UFC (I've heard that UFC lacks talent at HW, too). I sometimes look at guys like Lebron James or Shaq and think: "If he'd be born in the 50's he probably would've taken up boxing instead".

As you said, yomi, this was a very thought-provoking question. As soon as I read it, then gave it thought, my brain flatlined:
_________________________________________________________(my brain's EEG)
I couldn't think of who #3 would be.
My first thought was "The President," Ike Ibeabuchi, the bomb-throwing headcase from Nigeria? Then I checked. His last fight--other than against the U.S. legal system--was in 1999. Nope. Not Ike, who was deported a few months ago and is now running around, terrorizing those in his homeland of Nigeria.
Then I thought Chris Byrd, a KO victim of ZIbeabuchi in 1999. Byrd fought until 2009, but was 2-3 in his last 5 fights. Nope. Not Chris.
Then I thought Shannon Briggs. The comebacking Briggs is 5-0 (56-6 overall with 49 KO's), but was hammered by Vitali Klitschko in 2010. Three years before that he was decisioned over 12 by Sultan Ibragimov.
The most logical choice here would be Alexander Povetkin. His 28-fight professional record is marred by a single loss--to a Klitschko. In this case, Wladimir, who won a unanimous, clinch-filled decision against Povetkin in 2013.
Angelo Dundee once told me, "Interest in boxing always rises when the heavyweight division is alive. As go the heavyweights, so goes boxing."
I believe that.
The heavyweight division has been moribund and in a catatonic-like state since the Klitschko's took over, especially Wladimir. Don't get me wrong. The Klitschko's are talenhted fighters,gifted athletes. Vitali was the more exciting, the more daring, the more willing to mix it up, of the two. He was willing to take chances. Wladimir is not. All you have to do it watch his painfully boring 12-round, clinch-filled victory over Povetkin to see what Wladimir has done to the heavyweight division. Wlad wins, but his fights are sleep-inducers.
With Vitali now retired, Wladimir holds every major belt except the WBC strap. After his fight against Kubrat Pulev on November 15, Wladimir will await the winner of the upcoming Bermane Stiverne-Deontay Wilder fight (which may take place in December, but more likely in early Winter), then take a unification against that fight's winner. More than likely, whether he wins or loses that bout, Wladimir will then follow his brother into retirement.
The heavyweight division has been so dormant, that it's difficult to pick who the best heavyweight has been behind the Klitschko Brothers.
In 2015, that will all change. A new era in the heavyweight division is upon us.
-Randy G.

-Radam G :

As you said, yomi, this was a very thought-provoking question. As soon as I read it, then gave it thought, my brain flatlined:
_________________________________________________________(my brain's EEG)
I couldn't think of who #3 would be.
Angelo Dundee once told me, "Interest in boxing always rises when the heavyweight division is alive. As go the heavyweights, so goes boxing."
I believe that.
The heavyweight division has been moribund and in a catatonic-like state since the Klitschko's took over, especially Wladimir. Don't get me wrong.
In 2015, that will all change. A new era in the heavyweight division is upon us.
-Randy G.

Clue me in on this new era. Doc Wladimir plans on pugging away in the 2016 O-Games in Brazil, so he ain't going nowhere soon. Holla!

-The Commish :

Clue me in on this new era. Doc Wladimir plans on pugging away in the 2016 O-Games in Brazil, so he ain't going nowhere soon. Holla!

That's IF he doesn't get derailed by Kubrat Pulev, Bermane Stiverne or Deontay Wilder.
A big loss to any one of them may have him changing his mind about the Olympics.
-Randy G.

-Radam G :

That's IF he doesn't get derailed by Kubrat Pulev, Bermane Stiverne or Deontay Wilder.
A big loss to any one of them may have him changing his mind about the Olympics.
-Randy G.

He has no worries then.
Pulev and B-ware are easy decisions or late stoppages. And D-Wild is a feast. He is no beast. I think that da sucka has an infection With illusions and yeast. Outta many fighter that may beat Doc Wladimir, D-Wild is the least. He will be sleeping after three rounds.
Sorry! But the Millenium Max Foster is terrible. Holla!

-mortcola :

Very good points ! How do you think he could have done against either Klitschko !

One round dramatic pathetic KO loss

-Kid Blast :

No one!

-brownsugar :

As you said, yomi, this was a very thought-provoking question. As soon as I read it, then gave it thought, my brain flatlined:
_________________________________________________________(my brain's EEG)
I couldn't think of who #3 would be.
My first thought was "The President," Ike Ibeabuchi, the bomb-throwing headcase from Nigeria? Then I checked. His last fight--other than against the U.S. legal system--was in 1999. Nope. Not Ike, who was deported a few months ago and is now running around, terrorizing those in his homeland of Nigeria.
Then I thought Chris Byrd, a KO victim of ZIbeabuchi in 1999. Byrd fought until 2009, but was 2-3 in his last 5 fights. Nope. Not Chris.
Then I thought Shannon Briggs. The comebacking Briggs is 5-0 (56-6 overall with 49 KO's), but was hammered by Vitali Klitschko in 2010. Three years before that he was decisioned over 12 by Sultan Ibragimov.
The most logical choice here would be Alexander Povetkin. His 28-fight professional record is marred by a single loss--to a Klitschko. In this case, Wladimir, who won a unanimous, clinch-filled decision against Povetkin in 2013.
Angelo Dundee once told me, "Interest in boxing always rises when the heavyweight division is alive. As go the heavyweights, so goes boxing."
I believe that.
The heavyweight division has been moribund and in a catatonic-like state since the Klitschko's took over, especially Wladimir. Don't get me wrong. The Klitschko's are talenhted fighters,gifted athletes. Vitali was the more exciting, the more daring, the more willing to mix it up, of the two. He was willing to take chances. Wladimir is not. All you have to do it watch his painfully boring 12-round, clinch-filled victory over Povetkin to see what Wladimir has done to the heavyweight division. Wlad wins, but his fights are sleep-inducers.
With Vitali now retired, Wladimir holds every major belt except the WBC strap. After his fight against Kubrat Pulev on November 15, Wladimir will await the winner of the upcoming Bermane Stiverne-Deontay Wilder fight (which may take place in December, but more likely in early Winter), then take a unification against that fight's winner. More than likely, whether he wins or loses that bout, Wladimir will then follow his brother into retirement.
The heavyweight division has been so dormant, that it's difficult to pick who the best heavyweight has been behind the Klitschko Brothers.
In 2015, that will all change. A new era in the heavyweight division is upon us.
-Randy G.

Good answer....if you saw the ultra stiff, KO anxiety ridden W. Klitschko, 12 years ago when he was prone to gassing out and getting knocked out... You wouldn't have suspected he would have evolved into the unbeatable fighter he is today.
Credit part of that to Emanuel Stewart.
Credit the other part to WK's discipline and dedication.
We don't know which one of the current crop of young contenders will be the dominant force in the heavyweight division. But I guarantee you, it will be much more interesting and engaging than the KBros era.

-The Commish :

Good answer....if you saw the ultra stiff, KO anxiety ridden W. Klitschko, 12 years ago when he was prone to gassing out and getting knocked out... You wouldn't have suspected he would have evolved into the unbeatable fighter he is today.
Credit part of that to Emanuel Stewart.
Credit the other part to WK's discipline and dedication.
We don't know which one of the current crop of young contenders will be the dominant force in the heavyweight division. But I guarantee you, it will be much more interesting and engaging than the KBros era.

I'm tellin' you, Radam and Mortcola. My guy Wilder, with the homeboy connection to Breland, is going to be the answer in 2015. Not Haye. Not Fury. Not Chisora. Not Povetkin.
Wilder. Deontay Wilder. Big D. The Bronze Bomber.
He will be the guy to replace Wladimir Klitschko.
-Randy G.

-mortcola :

Commish, I can see the material. I can imagine what it looks like when he’s managed the other contenders without crumbling. I haven’t yet seen anything except a few punches. Nothing to base character, chin, or toolkit on, except that you know him. So that makes we watch him more seriously. SO he’d definitely not the second coming of Michael Grant? Or even of the remarkable David Price in UK who dramatically destroyed all journeymen with consummate punching and boxing skills - until someone with a pulse breathed on him? But you’re smarter than that. There must be something there.

-The Commish :

Commish, I can see the material. I can imagine what it looks like when he’s managed the other contenders without crumbling. I haven’t yet seen anything except a few punches. Nothing to base character, chin, or toolkit on, except that you know him. So that makes we watch him more seriously. SO he’d definitely not the second coming of Michael Grant? Or even of the remarkable David Price in UK who dramatically destroyed all journeymen with consummate punching and boxing skills - until someone with a pulse breathed on him? But you’re smarter than that. There must be something there.

All I can say is I believe there is something within Big D. I don't believe he is another David Price, Robert Helenius or eeven Tyson Fury. I believe he is more. Much more. How do I know? We have never seen him go the distance. We have never seen him have to "suck it up." We have never seen him dropped and have to pick his butt off the floor. We have never had to see him fight back hard to secure a win.
How do I know?
I don't.
Call it a gut feeling. I didn't have that gut feeling with then-highly-touted Mac Foster over 40 years ago. I didn't have it with Jameel McCline and I didn't have it with Michael Grant. I still don't have it with Price, Helenius or Fury.
I have it with Anthony Joshua.
I have it with Deontay Wilder. Time will tell.
So will a good, strong, tough opponent.
-Randy G.

-gibola :

Re: If The Klitschkos Are Era's Numbers One And Two, Who Is Number Three?
If Haye ever fights Povetkin, we may find out. If Haye is anywhere near fit after his op and layoff he KOs Povetkin. If they had met 3/4 years ago, Haye KOs Povetkin. For me it's Haye as 3rd best, but Byrd and Toney are also in the mix. I think Pulev is actually a very underrated fighter and his performance against Wlad will tell us where he stands.

-Kid Blast :

I agree

-the Roast :

How many fights at heavy did Haye have? I can think of three. Beat the giant Valuev, lost to Wlad and KOed Chisora. Haye has cancelled more fights than he has participated in.
Byrd was terrible to watch. If the way Chris fought was the way all boxers fought I would quit watching.

-Domenic :

I want to believe in Wilder but I don't think he'll get past Stiverne.

-brownsugar :

How many fights at heavy did Haye have? I can think of three. Beat the giant Valuev, lost to Wlad and KOed Chisora. Haye has cancelled more fights than he has participated in.
Byrd was terrible to watch. If the way Chris fought was the way all boxers fought I would quit watching.

Byrd should have been a cruiser weight....their fights rarely get air-time.

-Domenic :

Not a fan of Byrd's style either, but the guy had balls. He threw down twice with Wladimir and absorbed serious punishment (didn't run, fought him toe to toe). Also beat Vitali in an away game in hostile territory (bottom line, VK couldn't continue and only Lewis was able to do that to him). He beat lots of quality opposition. Definitely wasn't a crowd pleaser but had an admirable career.

-gibola :

You're right Roast, Haye fought fewer times than he should have for various reasons. To my eyes though he is (was?) a huge talent. The speed, the power, the movement. He KO'd Chisora when monsters like Fury, Helenius and Vitali couldn't - which outs his power into perspective. I guess he would have KO'd Fury if the fight had gone ahead but we'll never know. He couldn't get to Wlad but who can - I don't hold that against him. You are right though, saying Haye is no.3 is based on what I think he could have done rather than what he did. Other guys proved more at heavyweight than the Haymaker.

-The Commish :

Klitschko and Briggs know exactly what they are doing.
Briggs keeps hollering, "Everywhere you go, I go."
Even the CIA couldn't track Klitschko and stay on top of him as easily as Briggs does. Do you really think Briggs just happened to be out on a boat and saw Klitschko working out on a surfboard in Hollywood, Florida? Of course not.
Or do you think a friend of Briggs perhaps saw Klitschko working out, then called Briggs, who quickly got over to the marina, took out a boat and found Klitschko and harrassed him--all in a few minutes? Get real!
Klitschko knows this can be built into the biggest fight he's yet had. He also feels Briggs is old enough and slow enough not to be much of a threat. But there's value in the fight. Tremendous value. Klitrchko doesn't want to let it slip away. So, because they train at the same gym, it's easy enough for Klitschko to drop word where he is going to be.
"I'll be at the diner tomorrow at noon."
"I'll be on the waterway in Hollywood at 3:00."
Briggs then follows those leads and goes with a friend who videos the impromptu scene. Briggs acts it out and Klitschko plays along.
Let Klitschko get rid of Pulev and I am pretty sure we'll be seeing Briggs get the next shot.
Briggs is going to be very upset if Kubrat Pulev beats Wladimir next month!
LET'S GO, CHAMP!
-Randy G.

-Radam G :

Pulev's chances of beating Doc Wlad are slimmer than the moon crashing into the earth on Halloween night. And Wlad is playing along with S-Briggs just as much as Sonny Liston played with young Cassius Clay, Smokin' Joe Frazier played with GOAT Ali, Lennox Lewis played with "Iron Mike Tyson. Money May played with Vicious(less) Ortiz.
Everything -- NO! None of anything -- is not sad-arse, STAGED-ARSE Showtime's Mayweather's "All Access."
The old show "Candid Camera" was never staged either. ->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWe7TGvrqWk The world of boxing is not yet the WWE. Holla!

-flackoguapo :

I am 99.92% that was authentic MariJUwaana at Mayweathers big boy mansion,and the girl was smoking with a fork to hit the roach and/or to keep her hands and sexy nails from smelling like the devils lettuce! Mayweather played if off smooth as (canna)butter with the commission . But when is 2nd hand smoke REALLY the reason of of failed drug test? ->http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/about-us Maybe there was more complex reasoning and acceptance from the commission that I don't understand, but it trips me out how such high-level situations have such gullible justification IMO
And as far as Briggs, this is the most creativity I can remember seeing from somebody to get a fight-- it probably helps the "creative process" when the two sides are both in on it haha

-AkKnowledge :

I really want to know, on a site like this, I expect a decent level of boxing IQ and honesty, not puppeteering and f***ery but the realness.
How many of you are trolls ? how many of you are puppets ? how many of you are ignorant ? how many of you need some serious boxing schooling ? both in the ring and out ?
Guys, the first half of this past era in the heavyweight division belonged to James Lights Out Toney. He gave us the most in ring and out of ring entertainment, he gave us the most compelling match-ups, the most exciting and entertaining heavyweight fights of the entire past era. Every part of his heavyweight tenure as a top contender, his heavyweight prime is under appreciated and not nearly respected enough. I have watched hundreds if not thousands of fights, I have studied heavyweight boxing for years in which I have watched every era of boxing. When you really watch James Toney's heavyweight fights, you can really put them in any era, not only him but the fights. I am not sure why un educated fight fans tend to put this unrealistic expectation on fights, especially heavyweight fights, it is likely they have never fought nor trained and they figure it is easy, just something you do... Many will look at comments and media, they will become quick to write off a guy like Toney because he is muscular and fit, sometimes with a little extra weight but he is not ripped nor the quintessential body type depicted for media driven combat sports. They will conclude, likely without even watching the fight, or even more so not studying the fight that it's garbage. They have this idea of mike tyson, Ali, Foreman etc and fathom that those guys and there fights are exponentially more. The fact is that the margins are slim, the facts are that these people are simply uneducated and unaware of the realities.
->http://brettcharles.hubpages.com/hub/JamesToney-The-Negative-Agenda-and-Heavyweight-Boxings-Squandered-Era
above is an a honest and true depiction of this past era, outside of the view from the Klitchkos.
James Toney would have destroyed the Klitchkos, why ? skill, prowess, in ring intelligence, sheer heart, will and determination. James is the type of guy who knows enough to save himself for the right and greatest of occasions. He would take all the chances, he would do anything and everything including putting his never being stopped record on the line to topple the highest profile of world championships.
this is just the start on a lazy day, come one come all, I will prove James Toney is the one and only, any argument is truly phony.

-Kid Blast :

I'm here to share and learn. Period Ker Plunk. And to get some ides for articles.

-Kid Blast :

Why are you here? Just curious Did you write that article? It's well done actually. But Toney juiced, got a gift against Oquendo, lost to Gavern, got slaughtered by Lebedev, etc. The last great Toney I saw was the one who KOd Holyfield. And who slaughtered Jirov. Like too many others, Toney needs money and has now made himself a laughing stock, Sad but just another story in the Big City of Boxing. Even Roy has found a niche in which he can win and retain his dignity. In his prime, Toney was great. No doubt. And he will go into the Hall. But compared to Vitali, it's like comparing the 1975 Bears to the 2013 SEAHAWKS. No comparison. And to lose two to Samuel Peter who Klit hammered. That's an infamita.
No, I'll stick with Haye as the 3rd one. If only he had fought more.

-deepwater2 :

Why are you here? Just curious Did you write that article? It's well done actually. But Toney juiced, got a gift against Oquendo, lost to Gavern, got slaughtered by Lebedev, etc. The last great Toney I saw was the one who KOd Holyfield. And who slaughtered Jirov. Like too many others, Toney needs money and has now made himself a laughing stock, Sad but just another story in the Big City of Boxing. Even Roy has found a niche in which he can win and retain his dignity. In his prime, Toney was great. No doubt. And he will go into the Hall. But compared to Vitali, it's like comparing the 1975 Bears to the 2013 SEAHAWKS. No comparison. And to lose two to Samuel Peter who Klit hammered. That's an infamita.
No, I'll stick with Haye as the 3rd one. If only he had fought more.

I mentioned Toney weeks ago. Skill wise he is the best. Conditioning- wise , he is not the best. He knocked out Holyfield and schooled Peter and got a bad decision by a couple rounds.I would give him a good shot against the Klits because Toney could roll under those jabs and shoot the counter right hand. Toney would rabbit punch them when they grab on the inside.

-mortcola :

Wow! Thanks for that. Those big guys that went the route to the MMA/UFC would be easy matches for even the saddest big guys of nowadays professional pugilism. Holla!

yes, yes, and yes

-mortcola :

Any of them RG...pick one,... Would be more entertaining than what we had over the last decade.
No disrespect to the KBrothers. But a change is good.

Bloom County was more entertaining than Girl with a Pearl Earring. But Berk Breathed isn?t even in the same profession, much less league, as Vermeer. Sorry if that?s obscure, but that?s just me.

-mortcola :

I really want to know, on a site like this, I expect a decent level of boxing IQ and honesty, not puppeteering and f***ery but the realness.
How many of you are trolls ? how many of you are puppets ? how many of you are ignorant ? how many of you need some serious boxing schooling ? both in the ring and out ?
Guys, the first half of this past era in the heavyweight division belonged to James Lights Out Toney. He gave us the most in ring and out of ring entertainment, he gave us the most compelling match-ups, the most exciting and entertaining heavyweight fights of the entire past era. Every part of his heavywight tenure as a top contender, his heavyweight prime is under appreciated and not nearly respected enough. I have watched hundreds if not thousands of fights, I have studied heavyweight boxing since 2008 in which I have watched every era of boxing. When you really watch James Toney's heavyweight fights, you can really put them in any era, not only him but the fights. I am not sure why un educated fight fans tend to put this unrealistic expectation on fights, especially heavyweight fights, it is likely they have never fought nor trained and they figure it is easy, just something you do... Many will look at comments and media, they will become quick to write off a guy like Toney because he is muscular and fit, sometimes with a little extra weight but he is not ripped nor the quintessential body type depicted for media driven combat sports. They will conclude, likely without even watching the fight, or even more so not studying the fight that it's garbage. They have this idea of mike tyson, Ali, Foreman etc and fathom that those guys and there fights are exponentially more. The fact is that the margins are slim, the facts are that these people are simply uneducated and unaware of the realities.
->http://brettcharles.hubpages.com/hub/JamesToney-The-Negative-Agenda-and-Heavyweight-Boxings-Squandered-Era
above is an a honest and true depiction of this past era, outside of the view from the Klitchkos.
James Toney would have destroyed the Klitchkos, why ? skill, prowess, in ring intelligence, sheer heart, will and determination. James is the type of guy who knows enough to save himself for the right and greatest of occasions. He would take all the chances, he would do anything and everything including putting his never being stopped record on the line to topple the highest profile of world championships.
this is just the start on a lazy day, come one come all, I will prove James Toney is the one and only, any argument is truly phony.

Well, I respect the new blood, and the passion. Plus, you seem to know some boxing. But there are two separate Toney’s - if you don’t count the difference between the middleweight and the heavyweight. There is Toney the throwback sweet scientist who was just so beautiful to watch if you watched the boxing and not the violence. Then there is the Toney who was athletically average and undersized/over-bellied, who could simultaneously be leagues ahead of his opponent skill-wise and still lose the fight. His subtlety only translated into good wins if his opponent was rigid and/or not too big. You set up a big fallacy-argument to dissuade debate when you write that any argument is truly phony, not to mention that questioning the competence of the participants is kind of like the badass who walks into a bar and throws a loud challenge to the whole room - got to ask, what’s this guy’s agenda? But I’ll let that slide to youthful enthusiasm. You’ll get civilized here, don’t worry. As for the fights, Toney would show some neat moves and not win a round against either brother. I would say Wlad’s mastery of distance and angle is the equal of Toney’s inside subtlety. One European channel dis breakdown of the physics of Wlad’s jab-right in terms of its accuracy of timing and maximizing of power; Vitali, who was nothing like his brother technically, had some of the sneakiest head and upper body movement ever seen in a heavyweight. Not only did they dominate to an extent unprecedented in boxing history (for reasons also due to factors laid out in this article) it was as close to impossible to even hit them as one sees in the fighters more famous for superb defense. And Toney would be laughably undersized, light-hitting, unable to find an effective angle of extension beyond his own belly to land anything effective on the Bros who were so much taller than him; he wd be likely nailed with the hardest uppercuts he’s ever faced and otherwise tossed around like a fat middleweight, negating his good tools, which would not do him any good in these imaginary fights. Conceivably hurt or stopped in a manner no one else could muster. A great artist with inadequate equipment, that’s Toney against most heavyweights. And most heavyweights can’t even win a minute, much less a round against the Docs. But I will remember the pre-heavy Toney fondly and always consider him the Archie Moore or J.J. Walcott of the era, skill wise. He just couldn’t accomplish anything close to justifying his finely honed toolkit. Its not his belly or his lack of dramatic KOs; its the fact that he didn’t get much done once he got fat. And its results that ultimately count.

-Froggy :

Great post mortcola !

-Kid Blast :

Ike Ibeabuchi. As a fan of the heavyweights, I'd love a parallel universe where this guy was in the mix with Lewis and the Klitschkos. I'm optimistic about the division post-Klitschko, even if it's foolish optimism. I miss the inimitable electricity of a big-time heavyweight title fight. It hasn't happened since Lewis-Klitschko, and that was by mistake, as VK was then considered fragile (Byrd fight), and was a late substitute for Kirk Johnson. The fight aired on regular HBO.

Good one. He was something else.

-Kid Blast :

I mentioned Toney weeks ago. Skill wise he is the best. Conditioning- wise , he is not the best. He knocked out Holyfield and schooled Peter and got a bad decision by a couple rounds.I would give him a good shot against the Klits because Toney could roll under those jabs and shoot the counter right hand. Toney would rabbit punch them when they grab on the inside.

Maybe. But the Klits are very big and rabbit punching them takes some doing. I think they keep James a bay on a boring UD.

Seth Mitchell was better football player then boxer.. Sam Peter was a strong but limited fighter. I thought Toney outclassed him easily in their first fight and did well the second time.
In fact I would rate fat cigar chomping Toney ahead of most. He knocked out Holyfield, beat Rahman,shutout young Dominic Quinn,out boxed and beat Ruiz and beat Fast Fres. Toney has embarrassed himself recently but he did a great job considering he was a blown up 160 lb champ. He may be fat and overweight but the skills that Miller taught him are old school great.

Yep - all true.
Toney is a boxing master that also provides some of the best/funniest smack talk during beat-downs that I have ever heard.
Such gems as . . . .
"You're here to get hit, don't start crying now just cause we painting your face red".
"Come ova here and start throwing punches bytch".
And immediately after landing telling blows; "whooo wee bytch - I own you ho - you're mine - look at you now - you all busted up - you go running to momma now"
Toney actually sparred with Vitaly quite a few years back and wrong-footed, countered and chopped him, almost at will.
It, and James' perpetual self promotional style, effectively, ended his chances of scoring a big heavyweight fight with either of the BitchKo sisters; as James now likes to call them.
As a matter of coincidence, I watched Toney's fights with Holyfield and Vasilly Jirov a week ago and was still impressed and entertained.
Jirov - an Eastern Bloc olympian whom also won best fighter at the olympics and also an unbeaten professional fighter when he met Toney - set a pretty uncomfortable pace for James in their fight.
James didn't even blink at those credentials going in and I think he had been laid off for a while before the fight.
In between rounds James sits on his stool and tells Roach. "whoo wee having fun baby".
At one stage in the same fight Roach - when James is in danger of just banging away at his own pace and treating the fight like a sparring session - he tries to motivate James by telling him that Jirov is out-hustling him by throwing more (but less effective) punches, and thus could be providing the impression he is better than James.
It was a clever way to motivate James, because simply asking him to do more usually doesn't work; as James usualy does what James wants.
However appealing to Toney's not insignificant ego resulted in a far better change/result.
As a result James, quite humorously, takes offence to this news that Roach provides and acknowledges it and what has to be done; "Fu$ker".
The last 2 rounds of that fight are just brilliant in terms of old skool slip and slide fighting.
Doesn't matter whether James' feet are in southpaw or orthodox stance, he still makes Jirov - who is an incredibly tough guy that was receiving less than brilliant advice from his corner - pay with an assortment of superbly timed hooks, uppercuts, body shots and right hands.
Gold.
Then there is Toney's demolition of Holyfield.
No-one did it better to Evander, and I think you could see from Evander's look on his face as he stepped into the ring; he knew that if he didn't get James out of there early and with true heavyweight power, to the point where the bout came down to a boxing match; it was not going to be good for him.
There is an interview with Toney on the web somewhere . . . . actually here it is . . .
->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JukqbKVe-Mo
In it there are numerous gems from Toney that are quite funny.
Including, the almost religious statement; "I don't take it easy on sparring partners - I don't do that".

-Kid Blast :

Seth was and is terrible. His jaw is not fir for boxing. He was a good football player but a poor boxer.IMHO

-Kid Blast :

This all bring us to the question: Do week look at a fighter total body of work ot his or her prime? I tend to go with prime but it's not always easy to determine when the prime end. Peter second win over James may have marked the turn for Toney.

-AkKnowledge :

Okay, so I came on here like a wrecking ball lol
I will be back to continue this discussion or debate if you will after my dental appointment, a discussion and debate worth having for anyone trying to make sense of this past era, this new era that has already started and where we are today specifically in our beloved yet bewildered heavyweight division.
I meant know harm to anyone, simply sick of James Toney being under-appreciated, under valued, inexplicably unacknowledged when it comes to a lot of conversations. The man was more than relevant, in fact he was a top fighter in the 6 weight divisions he fought in, let's not forget that this past era even the mid 90's era were really promoter eras and not so much fighters eras. The big names didn't want to fight him, promoters didn't want to give him the big fights or pay days nor risk their top fighters careers. He is one of the most feared fighters, one of the most ducked and robbed fighters in the history of any sport, nobody at any weight ever wanted to fight James Toney, fighters and promoters alike did anything they could to not get in the ring with him.
I want to get into some good detail when I get back as far as James Toney's tenure as a heavyweight in this past era.

-AkKnowledge :

I am currently working on a summation of sorts offline in regards to Toney's tenure as a top contender in the heavyweight division from 2003 - 2009. But it is taking to long and thought I would ad a few things in regards to responses I've seen.
Let me start out by saying this, Best day on best day during any of the given fighters fights or time periods within the Era we are discussing; I have to give the edge to James Toney. Any fighter of this past heavyweight era, best on best is in **** against James Toney people.
Personally, I believe that Toney at his most physically solid as a cruiserweight beats either Klitchko and probably most of the other heavyweights but i digress because he no question was more capable at his best as a heavyweight.
We are talking about this past Era in the heavyweight division, not guys primes or what have you.
As far as Toney vs the Klitchkos goes, lmbo, Toney would pull out anything and everything to defeat the Klitchkos. Toney is not that small, yes he gives up 6 to 8 inches to either brother, Toney has been training against very tall opponents for along time and has fought some decently tall guys and that never really bothered him much. Toney has deceiving reach and at his best as a heavyweight is excellent at using angles and levels. Toney would get his jab in, would get his right hand in both off the jab, lead and counter. Not only that, Toney would get to the body from distance and inside, he would get under and in through the Klitchkos shots and bang to the body with vicious punches, with no worry of getting KO'd inside the end of Klitchkos jab and right hand at all. I believe that "mortcola" supremely under estimates Toney, he will never be considered light hitting, ever at any weight. Not only that but Toney would not be tossed around, I don't believe that for a second, I don't think this dream matchup would be inside all that much excpet for Toney getting in, banging the body then to the head and circling back around for more. Taking chunks out of either brother, slowly churning their insides into mush, while frustrating and bedeviling them with the use of every offensive and defensive tactic known to the pugilistic world.
Someone also mentioned something about Toney, getting inside and rabbit punching the Klitchkos and some how that getting Toney closer to a victory against them. Toney is not at all known for rabbit punching or being dirty as far as utilizing illegal strategies, in fact he is known for being at the receiving end of excessive illegal tactics for the fact that he is such a master of defense, incredibly difficult to beat and almost impossible to defeat in a clean true boxing match with integrity and accountability or just a good, unbiased and solid referee. Go watch some Toney fights, watch these guys rabbit punch him, hold him, push him, use there elbows and forearms to illegally push, hold out and post up on him. Then watch Toney, yes sometimes he will sneak in a rabbit punch, sometimes he will trap his opponents arm and walk him around, but usually it is the other guy who can't handle Toney's defense and resulting offensive outputs so he grabs, holds, leans and does all the things I mention above, Toney will bang the guy to the ribs, the hip, the heart, the lat and to the head way more then he will ever throw a rabbit punch. Rahman in there first fight with Toney landed over 200 rabbit/illegal punches on Toney and 90 % of the holding, clinching etc that those rabbit punches came out of were also initiated by Rahman. Toney's legal team even filed legal appeals, and suites or what have you bringing forth a whole lot of damning evidence against Rahman, bob Arum and their team.
There is a little more to think about, I want to go find another post I seen and answer it. still working on the detailed account, though will be my light version of that even. lol

-AkKnowledge :

Why am I here ? I love boxing.
Yes I wrote that article and any other article on that profile, I just started making an effort to write again, I used to write a lot as a kid and I really enjoy it. Especially since I know I am going to tell the truth, anything I write about I will have a sure grasp on and know my facts with intelligent and substantial opinion.
As far as your comments of Toney "juicing" this is what I have to say on that subject : This is where things get sour for a lot of people, I for one believe Toney, that he was not using PED’s and that in fact was treated medicinally with certain substances in the recovery process from his surgeries. I see it as a tragically mistimed or rushed comeback for Toney or maybe even mistakes made from the doctors side of things. James was out a year before the Booker fight, then he ends up needing surgeries to repair tendon and ligament damage sustained during the Booker fight, I mean James is and was no dummy at the time. Toney knew, surely he could feel the negative agenda had lifted quite a bit, that he was once again a sought after commodity, it may have been fair weather support, but it was support right. So of course James is looking at the year lost after Holyfield, then how long would the recovery process and preparing for his next fight take following the Booker fight ? Toney knew he was still in his prime, surely he wanted to fight as much as possible and make the greatest impact he could while father time and mother nature would allow him to do so at the highest levels. He only waited 6 months to fight after that, with a minimum of two months spent preparing, that is tight scheduling coming off of any injuries or surgeries never mind tedious and fragile ligament and tendon surgery. It comes down to this, the result of rushing the date and his return of which was probably not all James Toney’s idea in the first place that yes he ended up in a situation in which he was positive for a banned substance. He was not on PEDs, he was not juicing like haters say, I honestly don’t believe that, he was recovering from career threatening injuries & surgery. That is what was reflected in the test results, Stated by the administering physician. The punishment was even lightened because of these facts, yes he was still suspended because despite the evidence provided to disprove PED use the substance was still in fact in his system. In this fight we did not see anything superhuman, we did not see anything Toney hadn't been doing for 20 + years before and since. It's not even his best performance as a heavyweight. Toney did eat up Ruiz pretty well and not before nor after in the timeline would the result have been much different, in fact much like many of Toney’s fights at heavyweight he could have turned it up as much and as often as he liked. I would say things could only be worse for Toney’s opponents as the better you are, the tougher you are and the more you want to fight; well the more Toney will deliver with a smile on his face.
Your arguments or discussion points are a farce, just as great of a farce as Toney being robbed at every opportunity at a heavyweight title or opportunity to have a title fight since the negative agenda had a resurgence following the positive test. ^
Holyfield was not even his best heavyweight fight nor performance.
come on, the lebedev fight, Toney clearly suffered a serious knee injury in the 2nd round of that fight, not to mention he was probably already at 60 % with weight cutting/drained issues, he survived like a warrior for 10 more rounds when many other would have taken a knee or not answered the bell.
Toney beat Rahman in the first fight ( got robbed), Outclassed and totally schooled the best Sam Peter there ever was (got robbed), had a much closer fight with Peter in their 2nd match up, a fight that was very tight and calculated by both men ( I have to say, Toney got robbed, you have to give that fight to Toney or what is the history of boxing for lol), They always said Toney never hurt Peter, but after taking two beatings in a row and all those clean, accurate and solid shots from Toney that didn't hurt, Peter was KO'd what ? 3 times and knocked down like 8 times after Toney beat his *** for 24 rounds, Toney was beating Rahman again in the 2nd fight ( Toney screwed/robbed), Toney went on to fight Oquendo instead of Thompson which should have been a rematch with Rahman and Rahman coming off of quitting on the stool against Toney goes on to fight a Klitchko in his next fight while no one after Oquendo will sign a contract, even after Toney showed up at 217 lbs and KO'd a guy landing several big right hands and putting him down with body shots. . .
Toney cruised to a decision over Oquendo though Toney didn't have great sustained energy throughout the late rounds. He was ducked mercilessly following the Oquendo fight, there is no excuse for that, that is why James still wants to fight today, because he was either robbed or ducked after the positive test. Just quickly on Toney's performance against Oquendo, James Toney was preparing for a technical battle fought close to or within each fighters range and a lot of technical exchanging with Tony Thompson in the pocket. Both Oquendo and Toney actually fought each other pretty well for a weeks notice. Toney surely was not prepared to chase someone around throwing big bombs for 12 rounds, Tony Thompson is a sound technical boxer, he was not going to run like Oquendo did. I absolutely see and realize that Toney's sustained energy level dropped off somewhat after chasing Oquendo around for 7 or 8 rounds and throwing everything including the shots that missed with big power, their is no question about that. With that said, James is one of the smartest fighters of any era and was not going to jeopardize his career and ultimately his standing in the heavyweight division by pushing to much and maybe making a mistake that would cost him the fight. This was merely a stay busy fight for James. It made no sense and will never make any sense for any fighter to go away from their modus operandi (MO) or pugilistic methodology and risk everything taking a fight against a dangerous, good fighter that is just below you eying your spot. So as much as everyone including myself would have loved to have seen James open up more offensively against Oquendo in which you could clearly see was possible James fought the intelligent fight that night. I mean, maybe if Toney was trying to get back in the picture or into the top 10 like Fres Oquendo was; in hoping Toney would be his stepping stone. If Toney was in Oquendo's shoes, looking in from the outside then Toney with extreme precedential support certainly would have pursued a different strategy in being more aggressive and taking more chances. He would have taken those third or even fourth steps forward to make sure he lands more shots instead of chasing Fres around all night and only taking one or two steps inn throwing punches at the retreating Fres Oquendo. Toney would have thrown those third, fourth, fifth and so on punches, but why would he expend all that energy, take more chances of possibly suffering a loss against a guy who is running from you or tying you up to avoid any kind of exchanging or fight really. The judges could see these things and that is why the judges gave Toney the win over Oquendo.
2013 James would start off the year with a fight against Lucas Browne. Honestly I have to wonder how many people actually watched this fight or have watched it after the fact before speaking on it. Toney actually surely beat Lucas Browne; and I believe Lucas Browne to be the biggest threat to the major title holder/holders. When I watched the fight live I did not give Browne a round until the 10th and even with Toney clearly incurring some sort of serious mouth or jaw injury in that round he fought Browne until the very end and doing so more then adequately. Did Browne have his moments ? sure he did, but if you watched or watch the fight you will know the truth. I scoff at the commentators who were just as bias as the Ref and Judges as they ranted and raved of how Browne could finish Toney in the last 3 rounds in which Toney did have some troublesome moments. Browne would have finished Toney if he could have in those last three rounds, but every time the announcers spoke like Browne was going to finish him; in actuality he was missing most of those punches and just about to enter James's wheel house. The haunted house he had avoided all night long, knowing from first hand experience one shot from Toney countering out of Browne's flurries could and likely would end the night. That was the actual fight Browne had avoided all night long, James was still there in those last three rounds injured and all bringing on the fight; making it happen. Listening to the commentary in that fight is a joke much like every other time James has been robbed, you can hear it in the announcing, when the bias begins to show in the speech despite clearly not coinciding with what was going on in the ring. They are telling a story, a figment of the imagination in line with what they want themselves and you to see; telling the robbery before it happens. That fight scores 116-113 for James "Lights Out" Toney with Toney taking rounds 1-6, round 8 and 9, Browne took 7,10,11,12. If you want to get technical about it, as I previously stated, Browne did not win a round until the 10th. Even rounds ten through twelve were still competitive and were not all clear cut rounds for Browne ! James Toney would go on to lose vs Browne via unanimous decision, Toney was basically shut out by all judges in Australia against an Australian fighter, go figure right. That fight was very competitive, a very dangerous fight for both competitors, a fight that was marred by horrible refereeing, judging, for the sake of saying so, commentary and analysis.
really separate from this discussion; In regards to the 2013 prizefighter tournament performance, I maintain the belief that he cut some weight, flew across the pond thinking of the easy win instead of going there to reek havoc and dominate like he should. In Prizefighter it was as if he just can't win with his body. I mean he gets a bunch of weight off, weighs in at 213 lbs but in doing so it was also noticeable that a significant amount of productive tissue or what I call muscle had been lost under all that extra weight the last 2 years or so. He just didn't seem to have the muscle to KO a decent heavyweight, if it went beyond 3 rounds than maybe he would have, that no one can truly know. This we do know, when Toney has his body right, is putting in the proper body and boxing work he is all but unbeatable. Even at this advanced age he has shown that he still has skills and still has “the stuff in the basement”. James's skills have always been in the top percentile of greatness, but he has also always been very imposing physically at every weight despite not being an overly tall guy. If Toney can come in between 220 and 235 lbs or so muscular and fit I see that suiting him well on his road to 100 fights. For James, he has always been able to find a balance that he found his peak with in any division at any time in his career and he has to do exactly that now to move forward successfully. for the record, I don't believe he lost to Gavern, he landed the better shots, he landed more shots and he actually wanted to box where Gavern wanted to hug, hold and lean on Toney because he kept getting hit with clean shots.
" But compared to Vitali, it's like comparing the 1975 Bears to the 2013 SEAHAWKS. No comparison." best day on best day, Toney whoops both Klitchkos in their respective heavyweight primes, take Toney vs Holyfield, Booker, Ruiz, Rahman, Peter, Guinn, I would put James in the ring as is today against Klitchko and bet on Toney.

-Kid Blast :

Hmm. Your post is troubling and even, to some extent, scary.
"I would put James in the ring as is today against Klitchko and bet on Toney."
Adios amigo.

-mortcola :

Hmm. Your post is troubling and even, to some extent, scary.
"I would put James in the ring as is today against Klitchko and bet on Toney."
Adios amigo.

Love it. I would speed that fight up like an old silent comedy. Just picture it, you’ll smile.
A little time on this site will cure or at least relieve a bad case of boxer-love. Or the dude will go away, because some people can’t handle everyone reminding them that their girl is a skank - they’ll still spend everything they have on her until she gives birth to his cousin’s pointy-headed baby. Toney will be remembered as an excellent middleweight, a fat and ineffective heavyweight who usually barely squeaked by despite a number of moments where you look at the moves of an old-school game and shake your head, saying if only this guy had some discipline and stayed under 175. Even at 160, he got arguably beaten by Dave Tiberi and NEEDS seventeen excuses why, lost every minute till the KO left hook against Nunn, got shut out by RJJ....no shame there, just evidence that he was never more than excellent and sometimes mediocre even at his best weight. He has GREAT subtle moves, but like lots of fighters couldn’t turn them into a meaningful championship-level career, much less more than a handful of memorable (quality) performances, and had less training discipline than a dozen guys at the neighborhood gym. Insiders will understand the quality of the knowledge and technique, as well as the arguments for his career being a damn shame.

-stormcentre :

I think I have been abducted by an alien spacecraft again that's controlled by James Toney.
Far out man, I thought I respected JT a lot.
But AkKnowledge has upsized me to the tune of those huge shorts James was wearing when he first fought Rahman . . . . which by the way could easily serve a second purpose as a tent for a small army of boy scouts - but not after Toney fought in them.
:)

-The Commish :

I think I have been abducted by an alien spacecraft again that's controlled by James Toney.
Far out man, I thought I respected JT a lot.
But AkKnowledge has upsized me to the tune of those huge shorts James was wearing when he first fought Rahman . . . . which by the way could easily serve a second purpose as a tent for a small army of boy scouts - but not after Toney fought in them.
:)

Lol...As we noted in another thread, there is virtually no question that James Toney is from another planet, another place, another dimension.
James Toney wasn't born to be a heavyweight. He was born to be a middleweight and perhaps a super middleweight. Toney did not grow into higher weight divisions the way Manny Pacquiao has grown through at least nine divisions in a Hall-of-Fame career. James Toney grew into a a light heavyweight, cruiserweight and finally a heavyweight. because he ATE his way into those divisions.
Have you ever watched him eat? I have have. I promoted two of his fights, one year apart. They were on May 14, 1996 and May 14, 1997. The first was against Earl Butler for the WBU Light Heavyweight Title. In that one, Toney had to sweat off several pounds in order to make weight. Yet, two days before the fight, he ate like there was no tomorrow, scarfing down a large breakfast, a larger lunch and a Godzilla-sized dinner, telling me "Stop worrying, I'm gonna' make weight. Toney somehow made weight and even stopped Butler in the fourth round.
I put Toney in a year later to face Canada's Drake Thadzi for the vacant IBO Light heavyweight Title.
The weight limit was, of course, 175 pounds.
When Toney showed up two days before the fight, I insisted he come with me to the gym, where I would weigh him in. He complained bitterly, but arguing with me--the promoter--over his weight wasn't a fight hhe was going to win.
When he removed his shirt, I could see he wasn't a light heavyweight. I set the scale to 180. He stepped on and the scale jumped. I tapped the weight. Upwards...182...183...184. It wasn't moving. I pushed it to 190. Too high. I tapped it back down...189...188. It stopped.
It 24 hours, James Toney would be fighting for a light heavyweight title belt. He needed to weigh 175. He was 188. He said he's be heading into the sauna in a rubber suit, where he would shadow box using small hand weight.
"Stop worrying," he told me. "I can lose that weight in no time."
That night, I was sitting in the VIP lounge with a few sportswriter friends, there to cover the fight. Toney was there, entertaining many of them with his non-stop chatter.
It was around 11pm when I glanced in the mirror and saw Toney. He was behind me, looking suspicious. He was standing next to a large dessert table. On trays were many different types of decadent chocolates. I watched him as he looked left, then looked right. When he felt the coast was clear, he began to fill his pockets with the chocolates. I turned around.
"James, what the hell are you doing?" I asked.
He was the kid caught with his proverbial hand in the cookie jar.
"I, er, I, ugh, I am taking these to a my friend who is staying in my suite," he said.
"James, you can take all you want. Tell me, and I'll have them sent to your room."
Then I looked at him. I knew he had a sweet tooth. I knew they weren't for his friend.
"These aren't for your friend, are they?" I asked. "They're for you."
He became defensive.
"You are such a weasel!" he shouted. "You are paying me so little and now I can't take chocolates!" he yelled. "You are a weasel."
I laughed. I was paying him $100,000 to face Drake Thadzi. Now he was embarrassed because I caught him sneaking chocolates into his pocket so he changed the subject.
"I'll tell you what, James," I said. "If you make weight, if you make 175, I will throw an extra $50,000 onto your check. You have my word."
"Better get your checkbook out, Weasel!" he said. Then he left for his suite. Along with his sweets.
I didn't need to add anything to his check. Although he spent much of the day in the steamroom and sauna, the best he could do was get down to 179. There would be no title fight for him. It would only be for the title if Thadzi won, which he did. He took a lackluster 12-round majority decision against Toney, who then began an eating binge which would take him through the cruiserweight ranks up to heavyweight.
His highlight heavyweight victory was in October 2003 against an almost-39-year-old, badly-faded Evander Holyfield.
James Toney has vast defensive talents. That defensive gift has kept him going as an active fighter right up until last November, when he was last seen in a ring, competing in the Prizefighter, where he lost to Jason
Gavern on a three-round decision.
Could he have beaten either Klitschko? Don't make me laugh. Don't insult me. If Lucas Browne could take almost every round from Toney a few years ago, and if Sam Peter could have had little trouble with him in two contests eight years ago, the Klitschkos would have had one-sided contests against him, both with record numbers of clinches.
James Toney WAS a gifted fighter who was cursed by laziness.
He could have been so much better.
-Randy G.

-Radam G :

Imma make you laugh. The late, great ABG Manny Steward told Doc Wladimir never to fight Toney. Just because one fighter can't beat a certain fighter doesn't mean jack about beating the next fighter. Holla!

-AkKnowledge :

I knew their would be some jokers on here, come on, as my asain roommate would say: really guys ? seriously ? (Asian disgusted accent)
Guys come on, your talking about Drake Thadzi ? Toney won that fight easily, I don't care about making weight, or if he has a little fat on his wasteline.
Toney maybe dropped two or three rounds against Thadzi, watch the fight, I have a dozen times, Toney easily wins that fight. Okay it was hard fought, Thadzi was extremely tough and could KO guys but Toney won that fight by a wide margin.
The Lucas browne fight ? was not years ago, it was last year and I bet you didn't or have not watched it. Toney won at least the first six rounds, at least ! Again I watched it live and I have studied it a dozen times or more. I also gave him rounds 8 & 9 as he got some good work done throughout the rounds and his defense was quite good.
Whoever is talking about Toney's weight and making weight especially in Middle to light heavyweight is non sense, what discussion or argument are you winning or proving by bringing up his struggle to make weight at middle weight and light heavyweight after his body clock timed out at those weights, as far as light heavyweight, if he wouldn't have been robbed twice against Griffin in sure wide margin victories and if anyone else serious had signed a contract, believe me Toney makes the weight. Anyone talking non sense about his struggles and carelessness about making weight and blowing up in weight between fights etc is just as bad as those who were involved with and serving this negative agenda in the media, commentating during fights, corrupt jugding and reffing etc. You are not focused on the fight itself, the nuances of what is going on in the ring, your fixated on all the fluff and propanganda, the negative hype if you will. Your clearly not seeing things for what they are but for what you want them to be, what entertains your futile immature I dare say little minds.
This is a discussion about who comes after the Klitchkos in this past recent era of heavyweight boxing and Toney has to be the front runner for that designation especially his underrated run 2003-2009.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtT4-FE3uhE&list=PL6C6419641EF568D4&index=29">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtT4-FE3uhE&list=PL6C6419641EF568D4&index=29[/URL]
^^^ This was in 2009 after stopping Journeyman Mathew Greer with several big right hands and eventually putting an end to the fight with body shots, also after cruising to his stay busy win over Oquendo. If they were not outright robbing him of world titles or number one contender world title opportunities as a heavyweight after the Ruiz NC serving the resurgence of what I believe to be a negative agenda against James Toney coming from certain depths inside the boxing world, they were ducking, running and hiding from him. There is no excuse, no reasons and no hiding from that, especially when it comes to the fighters, to the "opposition",James is right, ya'll are sorry and have been. If any fighters with something to lose, a name, a worthy challenge or a fight that gave each fighter a chance to gain something stepped up, fought and honestly beat Toney when he was still in the top ten, before, around the time of this post fight conference and since then. I would not say anything about fighters still not stepping up now. But because they have not, except a couple exceptions over the past 6 years or so in which other than the Lebedev loss in which he incurreed a fight changing knee injury in the 2nd round he has not been beaten up or beaten convincingly. I can't, I will not blame James for wanting to fight still, still feeling like he has unfinished business, needing to test himself against high level competition to get into a position to finish off his career on some sort of high note. What has gone on has been inexcusable and inexplicable.
Who said this, Peter handled Toney easily for two fights, even people that hate on Toney like you, I guess your the exception know Toney outclassed, outboxed and schooled Peter in every way in the first fight, and they both fought a close second fight that may have gone to either guy, if you wanted to screw Toney you gave it to Peter, if your a pugilistic/boxing purest you gave it to Toney.

-Kid Blast :

Congrats mate. Between you and the guy who has posted over 9,000 times. you have succeeded in diving me to drink. I'll be back in a month.

-stormcentre :

Have you ever watched him eat?
It was around 11pm when I glanced in the mirror and saw Toney. He was behind me, looking suspicious. He was standing next to a large dessert table. On trays were many different types of decadent chocolates. I watched him as he looked left, then looked right. When he felt the coast was clear, he began to fill his pockets with the chocolates. I turned around.
"James, what the hell are you doing?" I asked.
He was the kid caught with his proverbial hand in the cookie jar.
"I, er, I, ugh, I am taking these to a my friend who is staying in my suite," he said.
"James, you can take all you want. Tell me, and I'll have them sent to your room."
Then I looked at him. I knew he had a sweet tooth. I knew they weren't for his friend.
"These aren't for your friend, are they?" I asked. "They're for you."
He became defensive.
-Randy G.

OMG, that's really funny.
"Have you seen him eat" . . . said almost as a warning !!!
When I read that I got pictures of doughnuts and other confectionary items that (in an advertisement we have here in Australia involving Antonio Bandera) talk; all telling each other to run for cover because James here - "all of us, we'll never get out alive - run while you can".
I have never personally seen the Toney eat.
Butt, and it's a big butt (did you like that); I have been told by quite a few that have seen the spectacle that it can be the same to the buffet table - as Toney was to Legg (Prizefighter comp, Toney's opponent before the aforementioned Gavern); easy work whether it lasts 3 rounds or more.
Yes James' defensive skills have carried him to where he is and also enabled him to take "breathers' in the fight and, I guess, be a little lazy.
No argument from me on that.
Toney is always going to be a larger than life character, I just hope he stops eating big when he stops fighting, and that he stops fighting soon.
Good post Randy.

-stormcentre :

Imma make you laugh. The late, great ABG Manny Steward told Doc Wladimir never to fight Toney. Just because one fighter can't beat a certain fighter doesn't mean jack about beating the next fighter. Holla!

Emmanuel Steward knew James' abilities really well, and as such he knew Wladimir - particularly at the early stages of his career that were shared with Steward - if he ever decided to "dance" with Toney, had very little chance of not getting thoroughly bashed and verbally raped - or vice versa.
:)

-stormcentre :

I knew their would be some jokers on here, come on, as my asain roommate would say: really guys ? seriously ? (Asian disgusted accent)
Guys come on, your talking about Drake Thadzi ? Toney won that fight easily, I don't care about making weight, or if he has a little fat on his wasteline.
Toney maybe dropped two or three rounds against Thadzi, watch the fight, I have a dozen times, Toney easily wins that fight. Okay it was hard fought, Thadzi was extremely tough and could KO guys but Toney won that fight by a wide margin.
The Lucas browne fight ? was not years ago, it was last year and I bet you didn't or have not watched it. Toney won at least the first six rounds, at least ! Again I watched it live and I have studied it a dozen times or more. I also gave him rounds 8 & 9 as he got some good work done throughout the rounds and his defense was quite good.
Whoever is talking about Toney's weight and making weight especially in Middle to light heavyweight is non sense, what discussion or argument are you winning or proving by bringing up his struggle to make weight at middle weight and light heavyweight after his body clock timed out at those weights, as far as light heavyweight, if he wouldn't have been robbed twice against Griffin in sure wide margin victories and if anyone else serious had signed a contract, believe me Toney makes the weight. Anyone talking non sense about his struggles and carelessness about making weight and blowing up in weight between fights etc is just as bad as those who were involved with and serving this negative agenda in the media, commentating during fights, corrupt jugding and reffing etc. You are not focused on the fight itself, the nuances of what is going on in the ring, your fixated on all the fluff and propanganda, the negative hype if you will. Your clearly not seeing things for what they are but for what you want them to be, what entertains your futile immature I dare say little minds.
This is a discussion about who comes after the Klitchkos in this past recent era of heavyweight boxing and Toney has to be the front runner for that designation especially his underrated run 2003-2009.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtT4-FE3uhE&list=PL6C6419641EF568D4&index=29">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtT4-FE3uhE&list=PL6C6419641EF568D4&index=29[/URL]
^^^ This was in 2009 after stopping Journeyman Mathew Greer with several big right hands and eventually putting an end to the fight with body shots, also after cruising to his stay busy win over Oquendo. If they were not outright robbing him of world titles or number one contender world title opportunities as a heavyweight after the Ruiz NC serving the resurgence of what I believe to be a negative agenda against James Toney coming from certain depths inside the boxing world, they were ducking, running and hiding from him. There is no excuse, no reasons and no hiding from that, especially when it comes to the fighters, to the "opposition",James is right, ya'll are sorry and have been. If any fighters with something to lose, a name, a worthy challenge or a fight that gave each fighter a chance to gain something stepped up, fought and honestly beat Toney when he was still in the top ten, before, around the time of this post fight conference and since then. I would not say anything about fighters still not stepping up now. But because they have not, except a couple exceptions over the past 6 years or so in which other than the Lebedev loss in which he incurreed a fight changing knee injury in the 2nd round he has not been beaten up or beaten convincingly. I can't, I will not blame James for wanting to fight still, still feeling like he has unfinished business, needing to test himself against high level competition to get into a position to finish off his career on some sort of high note. What has gone on has been inexcusable and inexplicable.
Who said this, Peter handled Toney easily for two fights, even people that hate on Toney like you, I guess your the exception know Toney outclassed, outboxed and schooled Peter in every way in the first fight, and they both fought a close second fight that may have gone to either guy, if you wanted to screw Toney you gave it to Peter, if your a pugilistic/boxing purest you gave it to Toney.

Yes, well, you're going to get everyone's opinions here on this forum so you better get used to it.
I agree with most of what you say - James is very underrated and I also believe he was being ducked and pushed out by (some) promoters, as his skills became more evident; possibly leading to depression and compulsive eating.
But then, the fact remains that, had he not ravaged food and remained seriously disciplined, the sky would have been the limit for him.
I can say that with confidence because look at what he has already achieved without trying, and also because there is no other boxer, fighter, technician out there - that I know of - that can enter contests like Prizefighter (in the UK) and still continue to fight/compete as a professional boxer in the USA, without seriously training or even caring to.
Toney, basically, fights the majority of his 10 or 12 round fights, tired and (at least partially) exhausted - he's used to it, and doesn't care.
There is - perhaps unwise and unintentional - strategy in that.
But still, it (to a degree) works for him.
Lucas Browne: I was there.
Lucas Brown easily beat James. Lucas then - out of sheer respect for James - cruised through the final rounds and didn't go hard on James. It was clear Browne could have but didn't want to stop James.
Lucas Browne can be a murderous puncher.
Finally, I agree James did a great job against Sam Peter in their first fight, and when he first fought Rahman he did lose that bout in my opinion because he was too small, not fit, unbalanced and overweight.
He was robbed when he fought Mike McCallum for a "draw" though.
A guy like Toney, who;
A) Calls his own shots.
B) Can - even today - slip/slide through most fights like Ezzard Charles.
C) Has mysterious droopy nipples reminiscent of PED use.
D) Represents as being hard to handle to promoters.
E) Is a risk to all but elite fighters.
F) Has forgotten more about boxing than most champions currently know.
G) Could probably fall asleep in a dentist chair during an extraction process.
Is always going to be controversial and great.
All factors, caveats and limitations considered; not only does he easily deserve number 3 or 4 position in my books - but I consider him to be a far better boxer than either of the Klitschkos.

-stormcentre :

Congrats mate. Between you and the guy who has posted over 9,000 times. you have succeeded in diving me to drink. I'll be back in a month.

I still have not recovered from my alien abduction and am out of the closet on it (on reflection I think I liked it - but don't tell anyone), and you're turning into an alcoholic.
Things are pretty normal then eh?
:)

-Radam G :

Congrats mate. Between you and the guy who has posted over 9,000 times. you have succeeded in diving me to drink. I'll be back in a month.

They always look for a scapegoat. It is nobody's fault that anybody makes themselves look like _______, and Float. Don't rock the boat. ->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtj_KnlYEG8. Holla!

-The Commish :

OMG, that's really funny.
"Have you seen him eat" . . . said almost as a warning !!!
When I read that I got pictures of doughnuts and other confectionary items that (in an advertisement we have here in Australia involving Antonio Bandera) talk; all telling each other to run for cover because James here - "all of us, we'll never get out alive - run while you can".
I have never personally seen the Toney eat.
Butt, and it's a big butt (did you like that); I have been told by quite a few that have seen the spectacle that it can be the same to the buffet table - as Toney was to Legg (Prizefighter comp, Toney's opponent before the aforementioned Gavern); easy work whether it lasts 3 rounds or more.
Yes James' defensive skills have carried him to where he is and also enabled him to take "breathers' in the fight and, I guess, be a little lazy.
No argument from me on that.
Toney is always going to be a larger than life character, I just hope he stops eating big when he stops fighting, and that he stops fighting soon.
Good post Randy.

Toney was truly a great fighter. But he could have been so much greater. I'd even put him on my list of "Most Wasted Talent."
In fact, he's probably in the top five of that category.
-Randy G.

-stormcentre :

Toney was truly a great fighter. But he could have been so much greater. I'd even put him on my list of "Most Wasted Talent."
In fact, he's probably in the top five of that category.
-Randy G.

I know, imagine how devastatingly brilliant he would have been had he trained like Mayweather all year round.
Still, he will go down as a hall of famer that was/is considered as good as many other greats out there.
Toney is both, Ezzard Charles old skool, and, bad to the bone.
I love the guy.
Many boxers say they fear no-one, but really don't.
Very few boxers truly fear no-one and really mean it.
I think Toney fears no-one, and even without his slip/slide fighting style, that's genuinely rare in boxing today.

-The Commish :

I have a feeling that AKK knows/has worked with James Toney. He makes it seem as if all his close losses were robberies and/or conspiracies by boxing insiders. Insiders such as who? In Toney's fine run between 2003-2009, he was 7-2-1 with two no contests.
As far as me talking about Toney as a middleweight. super middleweight and light heavyweight, I did so because that it where he belonged, somewhere in there, not as a heavyweight. Why is Toney a heavyweight? It's not just because the scale says he's a heavyweight. James Toney is a heavyweight because he is lazy. He is an ultra-talented, vastly-gifted fighter who is cursed with laziness. Don't tell me about Toney's body not responding to training. Blown-up cruiserweights Tomas Adamek, Steve Cunningham and Eddie Chambers deserve more to be heavyweight than Toney. They have built their bodies up by training, and training hard. Toney has built his body up...check that...rounded his body off by over-eating.
Do you think that one night of stuffing his pockets with chocolates "for a friend" was the first--and only--time he did that? Of course not. In fact, that was probably not even the first time that day in which he piled down the food. Toney spent more time hitting the refrigerator than he did hitting the heavy bag in preparation for Drake Thadzi.
So many fighters are coming in overweight, nowadays. They are coming in overweight for title fights and they are coming in overweight for non-title fights. They agree to a weight several weeks before the fight, sign a contract then refuse to live up to it. Brandon Rios. Marco Antonio Rubio. Mikey Garcia. Orlando Salido.
"I can't make the weight any longer," they cry. Then why did they sign for the fight at whatever weight they signed for if they can no longer make the contracted weight? I'm glad Marco Antonio Rubio got whacked with a stiff fine. The trainers should get fined, too.
James Toney leadss the league in being overweight. I know he's in shape, though. Round is a shape! He's a heavyweight the way I'd be a heavyweight if I gained 40 pounds. If I ate, indulged and gorged myself the way James Toney does/did, I'd be a heavyweight, too.
Despite his being overweight, Toney's massive boxing skills have taken him this far. Let's stop whining about what the media and the boxing establishment have done to Toney. They didn't do anything to him.
James Toney did this to himself.
Imagine if he had treated his body the way Bernard Hopkins treats his body.
Had he done that, we may not be talking about Toney being the third, fourth, fifth or sixth best heavyweight of the last 15 years.
We'd quite possibly be talking about James Toney as being the best.
Lights Out!
-Randy G.

-Radam G :

I have a feeling that AKK knows/has worked with James Toney. He makes it seem as if all his close losses were robberies and/or conspiracies by boxing insiders....
"I can't make the weight any longer," they cry. Then why did they sign for the fight at whatever weight they signed?...The trainers should get fined, too....
Imagine if he had treated his body the way Bernard Hopkins treats his body.
Had he done that, we may not be talking about Toney being the third, fourth, fifth or sixth best heavyweight of the last 15 years.
We'd quite possibly be talking about James Toney as being the best.
Lights Out!
-Randy G.

I'm definitely riding, riding, RIDIINNNGGGG shotgun with you on fining trainers for letting their pugs come in overweight. And these so-called strength-and-condition coaches should be expelled for a year or so for letting the pugs come in dirty and still not make weight. Holla!

-stormcentre :

I'm definitely riding, riding, RIDIINNNGGGG shotgun with you on fining trainers for letting their pugs come in overweight. And these so-called strength-and-condition coaches should be expelled for a year or so for letting the pugs come in dirty and still not make weight. Holla!

Provided the fighter actually turns up for sessions and is willing to burn calories, the idea of a punitive arrangement for the coach and trainer "might" make sense.
But I doubt you would get many straight strength and conditioning coaches signing a contract like that - and getting them to sign is the only way to hold them accountable.
In essence, how can one guy (the strength and conditioning coach) be held responsible for another guy's (the fighter's) physical activity?
How would you design that contract in law and expect it to meaningfully and successfully operate.
Such current/previous non-legal (strength and conditioning) arrangements that have similar amounts of expectation, responsibility, results and performance associated with them, are more than likely one reason why PEDs have become widespread and regularly associated with strength and conditioning coaches.
Strength coaches (as it usually and legally stands today) provide the routine and motivation - and if they're legitimate - not the energy and willingness for the fighter to perform that given routine; as the the energy, dedication and willingness must come from the fighter.
The hope is, that by frequently performing the routine(s) with the strength and conditioning coaches the energy and willingness for the fighter to perform those said routines will increase.
But that is not always the case, and I can't see how a strength and conditioning coach can be held responsible for an athlete's dedication and other issues.
I remember many of Tyson's coaches and trainers having issues controlling him, particularly in his prime.
Like you're going to be able to tell a guy like that when/what to do, particularly if he has other ideas.
Many of Mike's experienced trainers and strength and/or conditioning coaches had real problems with Mike in this sense, and I should imagine the same may apply for Toney.
Mike was such a mean MoFo back then, even if you came home and caught him in bed with your partner - rather than adopt the typical response - instead, you'd probably tuck him in and ask him if, whilst in bed, he wanted a cup of tea and biscuits after he had finished his strength and conditioning routine.

-Radam G :

Iron Mike was mean, crazy and lazy until you got him into camp, where he was a vicious, hard-working murderer. And he never had a weight or fight problem because of that type of commitment except when going into the Buster Douglas Bout. He had an inexperienced trainer, drug pushers and pimps in that camp. And your saw what happened.
Getting Mike into camp was a problem. But once you got him there -- two, three, four, five, six weeks -- he was all pug business and had high regards and respect of his selective trainers.
His problems were outside of training camps. Nowadays sorry, lazy pugs run the camps and tell the trainers what they are going to do. This type of syet was unheard of back in the day. You don't tell a trainer what you are and ain't gonna to do. Holla!

-stormcentre :

Also . . at heavyweight there wasn't really a weight limit for him to make was there?
So, then we can never really tell if Mike hit the weight his strength and conditioning coach would be fired/hired for.
Your thoughts?

-Radam G :

Also . . at heavyweight there wasn't really a weight limit for him to make was there?
So, then we can never really tell if Mike hit the weight his strength and conditioning coach would be fired/hired for.
Your thoughts?

For every human, there is maximum and minimum weight to get superb performance. And it comes from the proper foods to click with the mind which controls it all.
Iron Mike learnt this from his late, great trainer Cus D'Amato and always got to the weight limit to maximumize his killa instinct and performance.
Iron Mike - as all the great heavyweights - was within that limit 98 percent of the time. When he wasn't, he and the world saw it.
And a heavyweight can be a fat, fat slob. But it tells on him. And shows the lack of commitment versus when one is at his proper maximum, effective fighting weight.
Just imagine how great Tony Tubbs and Riddick Bowe could have been if they had weight-limit-maximum-performance respect.
As you know, the mind controlled the body to give its best performance. But if you jive the mind with bad food and water and no sunshine and moonshine, you get a lethargic performance from enlarged body, and a drunken-on-bad-syet brain. Holla!

-stormcentre :

I'm hollar-ing man.
That gospel you just preached there is OK by me man.
Peace out cool cat killa Pinoy - the king of all the sweet science posters.
:)

-AkKnowledge :

Love it. I would speed that fight up like an old silent comedy. Just picture it, you?ll smile.
A little time on this site will cure or at least relieve a bad case of boxer-love. Or the dude will go away, because some people can?t handle everyone reminding them that their girl is a skank - they?ll still spend everything they have on her until she gives birth to his cousin?s pointy-headed baby. Toney will be remembered as an excellent middleweight, a fat and ineffective heavyweight who usually barely squeaked by despite a number of moments where you look at the moves of an old-school game and shake your head, saying if only this guy had some discipline and stayed under 175. Even at 160, he got arguably beaten by Dave Tiberi and NEEDS seventeen excuses why, lost every minute till the KO left hook against Nunn, got shut out by RJJ....no shame there, just evidence that he was never more than excellent and sometimes mediocre even at his best weight. He has GREAT subtle moves, but like lots of fighters couldn?t turn them into a meaningful championship-level career, much less more than a handful of memorable (quality) performances, and had less training discipline than a dozen guys at the neighborhood gym. Insiders will understand the quality of the knowledge and technique, as well as the arguments for his career being a damn shame.

No not all, Toney will be remembered as a great fighter through out his career, not just as a middle weight. The only reason he did not win official world titles at Light heavyweight is simple, he got robbed twice against Griffin of which nether fight was even close and even people that hated on Toney at the time said it openly and knew it. Got Robbed against Thadzi because he was 4 lbs over weight and got sick of waiting for anyone worth their name and spot to sign a contract at 175. If anyone at 175 worth their spot and name would have signed a contract to fight Toney, he would have made weight. Roy Jones got away with one, he beat Toney to the punch offensively and got out, he ran and picked his spots to throw punches against a James Toney who would never fight at super middle weight again. I disagree with a lot of what you say, I have studied that Tiberi fight and don't think Dave beat Toney, it was a good fight though. & Toney did not lose every minute against Nunn until he KO'd him, but he did damn well KO him and win that world title. James Toney totally had a championship level career for more than one stretch of his career. James Toney is a guy who will be regarded as one of the greatest talents to lace'em up, he will be remembered for his accomplishments, who he beat, his level of skill, his iron chin, his willingness to fight anyone who is willing to fight him and the list goes on. But James is not only defined by all of those things, he is also defined by his eras, being feared by promoters and just as much as he will be remembered for his greatest victories he will be remembered for the guys in his eras who ducked him, who were scared to fight James Toney. Just as much as he will be remembered for who he fought, the facts of being old school, willing to fight anyone, especially anyone worth there spot, name and true challenge but also by the fighters who did not step up and fight him. That speaks just as much as his skill, prowess and what he accomplished.

-AkKnowledge :

Lol...As we noted in another thread, there is virtually no question that James Toney is from another planet, another place, another dimension.
James Toney wasn't born to be a heavyweight. He was born to be a middleweight and perhaps a super middleweight. Toney did not grow into higher weight divisions the way Manny Pacquiao has grown through at least nine divisions in a Hall-of-Fame career. James Toney grew into a a light heavyweight, cruiserweight and finally a heavyweight. because he ATE his way into those divisions.
Have you ever watched him eat? I have have. I promoted two of his fights, one year apart. They were on May 14, 1996 and May 14, 1997. The first was against Earl Butler for the WBU Light Heavyweight Title. In that one, Toney had to sweat off several pounds in order to make weight. Yet, two days before the fight, he ate like there was no tomorrow, scarfing down a large breakfast, a larger lunch and a Godzilla-sized dinner, telling me "Stop worrying, I'm gonna' make weight. Toney somehow made weight and even stopped Butler in the fourth round.
I put Toney in a year later to face Canada's Drake Thadzi for the vacant IBO Light heavyweight Title.
The weight limit was, of course, 175 pounds.
When Toney showed up two days before the fight, I insisted he come with me to the gym, where I would weigh him in. He complained bitterly, but arguing with me--the promoter--over his weight wasn't a fight hhe was going to win.
When he removed his shirt, I could see he wasn't a light heavyweight. I set the scale to 180. He stepped on and the scale jumped. I tapped the weight. Upwards...182...183...184. It wasn't moving. I pushed it to 190. Too high. I tapped it back down...189...188. It stopped.
It 24 hours, James Toney would be fighting for a light heavyweight title belt. He needed to weigh 175. He was 188. He said he's be heading into the sauna in a rubber suit, where he would shadow box using small hand weight.
"Stop worrying," he told me. "I can lose that weight in no time."
That night, I was sitting in the VIP lounge with a few sportswriter friends, there to cover the fight. Toney was there, entertaining many of them with his non-stop chatter.
It was around 11pm when I glanced in the mirror and saw Toney. He was behind me, looking suspicious. He was standing next to a large dessert table. On trays were many different types of decadent chocolates. I watched him as he looked left, then looked right. When he felt the coast was clear, he began to fill his pockets with the chocolates. I turned around.
"James, what the hell are you doing?" I asked.
He was the kid caught with his proverbial hand in the cookie jar.
"I, er, I, ugh, I am taking these to a my friend who is staying in my suite," he said.
"James, you can take all you want. Tell me, and I'll have them sent to your room."
Then I looked at him. I knew he had a sweet tooth. I knew they weren't for his friend.
"These aren't for your friend, are they?" I asked. "They're for you."
He became defensive.
"You are such a weasel!" he shouted. "You are paying me so little and now I can't take chocolates!" he yelled. "You are a weasel."
I laughed. I was paying him $100,000 to face Drake Thadzi. Now he was embarrassed because I caught him sneaking chocolates into his pocket so he changed the subject.
"I'll tell you what, James," I said. "If you make weight, if you make 175, I will throw an extra $50,000 onto your check. You have my word."
"Better get your checkbook out, Weasel!" he said. Then he left for his suite. Along with his sweets.
I didn't need to add anything to his check. Although he spent much of the day in the steamroom and sauna, the best he could do was get down to 179. There would be no title fight for him. It would only be for the title if Thadzi won, which he did. He took a lackluster 12-round majority decision against Toney, who then began an eating binge which would take him through the cruiserweight ranks up to heavyweight.
His highlight heavyweight victory was in October 2003 against an almost-39-year-old, badly-faded Evander Holyfield.
James Toney has vast defensive talents. That defensive gift has kept him going as an active fighter right up until last November, when he was last seen in a ring, competing in the Prizefighter, where he lost to Jason
Gavern on a three-round decision.
Could he have beaten either Klitschko? Don't make me laugh. Don't insult me. If Lucas Browne could take almost every round from Toney a few years ago, and if Sam Peter could have had little trouble with him in two contests eight years ago, the Klitschkos would have had one-sided contests against him, both with record numbers of clinches.
James Toney WAS a gifted fighter who was cursed by laziness.
He could have been so much better.
-Randy G.

You are right, James Toney was not born to be a heavyweight, but anyone who sits there and says he is a natural middleweight, or even light heavyweight is just being ignorant and does not have an understanding of biology nor human anatomy. Millions of people struggle with weight issues, body type issues etc. that have nothing to do with horrible diets, lack of exercise etc. I am 5`8, big boned, well built, wide shouldered and barrel chested, I am in good shape, not to much muscle, not a lot of fat at all, fit. I am no natural middle weight or even light heavyweight, I am a natural 180-190 lbs. James Toney was a 200 lbs quarterback in high school who received scholarship offers from legit football Universities. James Toney has always struggled with weight issues, he had to come down to middle weight from the very beginning, his frame, his height, his body type and his genes always had a clock on how long he would be able to fight at middle weight, even light heavyweight and perform at 100 %. Did he have dietary issues ? I believe he did, but I also believe that that is not the reason he was and is not a natural middleweight or even light heavyweight. Lets face facts, almost always more often than not Toney made weight in 90 + pro fights up to date, was he immature at times with his diet, training and being to confident in his abilities in the ring and his ability to cut weight, no question about it. It even cost him the biggest loss and blow to his entire career in his loss to Roy Jones jr.
So just so you know, that little Drake Thadzi story that was just told me, just explained to me why James Toney got robbed that night, because I have studied that loss a dozen or more times and James Toney won that fight in the ring. I now know what I already knew for certain, He lost the fight out of the ring because he was being careless, got caught being immature and not giving a ****, and he did not make weight by 4 lbs. It`s James Toney, now surely he thought he would make weight because he has done it time and time again and on top of things, he wasn`t worried about Thadzi beating no sir, but this time losing the weight, he didn`t get it done and to boot he got caught by the promoter sneaking food who spread the word around surely. I could never figure out why he got robbed against thadzi ? because he only got robbed and has only been robbed in really important fights that held world title implications like the two Griffin fights up to that point.
His highlight victory at Heavyweight was not over Holyfield, it was not even his best performance, any other version of Toney between 2003 and 2009 would have had Holyfield out quicker and in worse shape.
I answered the rest of your silly comments in another post. that is all.

-AkKnowledge :

Imma make you laugh. The late, great ABG Manny Steward told Doc Wladimir never to fight Toney. Just because one fighter can't beat a certain fighter doesn't mean jack about beating the next fighter. Holla!

Trust me we all know Steward did not want either Klitchko fighting James Toney, I don't know of a promoter that has ever wanted any of their fighters fighting James Toney, if they did and they had a chance to pay for a win over the Toney, they did that. For a man who only has two legit losses in his 90 + pro fight career one of which he suffered a severe and fight altering knee injury in the 2nd round in which he survived for 10 more rounds to a UD loss against very tough Dennis Lebedev, for that said above he seems to get quite a bit to much hate and criticism.

-Radam G :

Trust me we all know Steward did not want either Klitchko fighting James Toney, I don't know of a promoter that has ever wanted any of their fighters fighting James Toney, if they did and they had a chance to pay for a win over the Toney, they did that. For a man who only has two legit losses in his 90 + pro fight career one of which he suffered a severe and fight altering knee injury in the 2nd round in which he survived for 10 more rounds to a UD loss against very tough Dennis Lebedev, for that said above he seems to get quite a bit to much hate and criticism.

It is a matter of opinion about his losses. But I saw him lose clearly five times. Holla!

-AkKnowledge :

Emmanuel Steward knew James' abilities really well, and as such he knew Wladimir - particularly at the early stages of his career that were shared with Steward - if he ever decided to "dance" with Toney, had very little chance of not getting thoroughly bashed and verbally raped - or vice versa.
:)

Agreed

-AkKnowledge :

Yes, well, you're going to get everyone's opinions here on this forum so you better get used to it.
I agree with most of what you say - James is very underrated and I also believe he was being ducked and pushed out by (some) promoters, as his skills became more evident; possibly leading to depression and compulsive eating.
But then, the fact remains that, had he not ravaged food and remained seriously disciplined, the sky would have been the limit for him.
I can say that with confidence because look at what he has already achieved without trying, and also because there is no other boxer, fighter, technician out there - that I know of - that can enter contests like Prizefighter (in the UK) and still continue to fight/compete as a professional boxer in the USA, without seriously training or even caring to.
Toney, basically, fights the majority of his 10 or 12 round fights, tired and (at least partially) exhausted - he's used to it, and doesn't care.
There is - perhaps unwise and unintentional - strategy in that.
But still, it (to a degree) works for him.
Lucas Browne: I was there.
Lucas Brown easily beat James. Lucas then - out of sheer respect for James - cruised through the final rounds and didn't go hard on James. It was clear Browne could have but didn't want to stop James.
Lucas Browne can be a murderous puncher.
Finally, I agree James did a great job against Sam Peter in their first fight, and when he first fought Rahman he did lose that bout in my opinion because he was too small, not fit, unbalanced and overweight.
He was robbed when he fought Mike McCallum for a "draw" though.
A guy like Toney, who;
A) Calls his own shots.
B) Can - even today - slip/slide through most fights like Ezzard Charles.
C) Has mysterious droopy nipples reminiscent of PED use.
D) Represents as being hard to handle to promoters.
E) Is a risk to all but elite fighters.
F) Has forgotten more about boxing than most champions currently know.
G) Could probably fall asleep in a dentist chair during an extraction process.
Is always going to be controversial and great.
All factors, caveats and limitations considered; not only does he easily deserve number 3 or 4 position in my books - but I consider him to be a far better boxer than either of the Klitschkos.

I appreciate your knowledge, honesty and ability to keep things in perspective. I am forced to defend Toney so much because people take the short bus road, they take the low blow roads and or they just don't know boxing that well, they either feed off of what negativity they see online or they watch fights ignorantly and listen to the anti Toney commentary and pro who ever his opponent is commentary lol.
You know, when I first started watching boxing, I had been boxing for a while already, kickboxing before that and other martial arts before then. I also played other sports both competitive and extreme sports like Skateboarding, mountain biking etc so, I am an athlete, I know competitive fire and all that sports is about. anyhow, when I first started watching boxing, I was judging, thinking I knew what I was talking about and all that, but after years and years of studying boxing I realized at one point a few years ago hhow little I actually knew and how bad my judging was when I first started. It has taken me years and years to be able to see the things in the ring or cage that you need to know in order to have a true summation of what is going on in a fight, combined with what has gone on already and being able to add it all up when it goes to the scorecards. I have had to watch hundreds, if not thousands of fights, read and study fighters, the history of the sport, trainers, promoters etc. to understand these combat sports. I certainly did not see what you seen in the Rahman fight, for me that fight comes down to Rahman's fluff or Toney's stuff. Toney made Rahman look horrible, Rahman had to tie up, lean and post up with his elbows and forarms all night because anytime they were boxing clean Toney ate him up to the head and the body all night long, Toneys jab was also better and more effective than Rahmans. Though Rahman's jab was his most successful tool in the fight aside from all the illegal tactics he utilized to try to smother, slow down, distract, bother, annoy and tire Toney out but his jab was more annoying and distracting if you will then effective. Actually the best thing Rahman did in that fight was not get knocked out because if he wasn't fcused enough to be biting down and be prepared for and ready to take all those accurate, sharp and more than penetratingly solid punches from Toney.
Question, if Toney and Rahman 1 went 15 rounds or just went on until someone dropped, who lasts ? who wins ?
I am curious though, surely you did not shut out Toney vs Browne, like I said, I gave Toney the first six rounds, Browne certainly did not take any of them. Tone also won a couple of the middle rounds, I believe it was 8 and 9, even though I believe round nine is when Toney sustained that mouth or jaw injury. I am not delusional, Browne did have Toney in trouble a few times late, but never that much trouble as it looked. But watch the fihght again, have you watched it since you were there ? Most of those moments in which Toney was in trouble late Browne was missing those shots, maybe hitting Toney's arms/shoulders and gloves, only a few made it through. Anyone can say or speculate that Browne was being nice or some garbage like that but Toney almost knocked out Browne and hurt Browne more separate times in the fight than Browne did Toney. So anyone can say Browne was holding back or being nice, but Browne was in there and damn well knew how long he could stick around and throw a flurry, maybe Toney was in a little trouble and he got to throw a few few extras but if he stayed in to finish the job and over committed believe you me that something very heavy, as big and stalky and as much weight as james Toney had on him was going to be planted on the head or body of Browne as many times as he could manage. I am going to watch the fight again tonight or tomorrow, I will probably watch the Thadzi fight, the Griffin fights, The Rahman fight and the Peter fights all this month.
What rounds did you give Toney against Browne ? It was no shut out. Browne is the prospect, Toney is the legend the champion status if you will, Browne is the KO artist, he didn't take no rounds from Toney till at least after 6 and even then he didn't take or win all of the last 6 rounds of the fight.

-AkKnowledge :

It is a matter of opinion about his losses. But I saw him lose clearly five times. Holla!

I will holla, name 5 legit losses than. I know 2, Jones and Lebedev right, indisputable for whatever reasons.

-Radam G :

Jones, Lebedev, Peter II, Griffin II and Lucas Brown. Holla!

-AkKnowledge :

I have a feeling that AKK knows/has worked with James Toney. He makes it seem as if all his close losses were robberies and/or conspiracies by boxing insiders. Insiders such as who? In Toney's fine run between 2003-2009, he was 7-2-1 with two no contests.
As far as me talking about Toney as a middleweight. super middleweight and light heavyweight, I did so because that it where he belonged, somewhere in there, not as a heavyweight. Why is Toney a heavyweight? It's not just because the scale says he's a heavyweight. James Toney is a heavyweight because he is lazy. He is an ultra-talented, vastly-gifted fighter who is cursed with laziness. Don't tell me about Toney's body not responding to training. Blown-up cruiserweights Tomas Adamek, Steve Cunningham and Eddie Chambers deserve more to be heavyweight than Toney. They have built their bodies up by training, and training hard. Toney has built his body up...check that...rounded his body off by over-eating.
Do you think that one night of stuffing his pockets with chocolates "for a friend" was the first--and only--time he did that? Of course not. In fact, that was probably not even the first time that day in which he piled down the food. Toney spent more time hitting the refrigerator than he did hitting the heavy bag in preparation for Drake Thadzi.
So many fighters are coming in overweight, nowadays. They are coming in overweight for title fights and they are coming in overweight for non-title fights. They agree to a weight several weeks before the fight, sign a contract then refuse to live up to it. Brandon Rios. Marco Antonio Rubio. Mikey Garcia. Orlando Salido.
"I can't make the weight any longer," they cry. Then why did they sign for the fight at whatever weight they signed for if they can no longer make the contracted weight? I'm glad Marco Antonio Rubio got whacked with a stiff fine. The trainers should get fined, too.
James Toney leadss the league in being overweight. I know he's in shape, though. Round is a shape! He's a heavyweight the way I'd be a heavyweight if I gained 40 pounds. If I ate, indulged and gorged myself the way James Toney does/did, I'd be a heavyweight, too.
Despite his being overweight, Toney's massive boxing skills have taken him this far. Let's stop whining about what the media and the boxing establishment have done to Toney. They didn't do anything to him.
James Toney did this to himself.
Imagine if he had treated his body the way Bernard Hopkins treats his body.
Had he done that, we may not be talking about Toney being the third, fourth, fifth or sixth best heavyweight of the last 15 years.
We'd quite possibly be talking about James Toney as being the best.
Lights Out!
-Randy G.

He was never going to be able to fight at 100 % for his entire life as a middleweight I don't get why so many people are unaware of peoples genes and body types. He may have been able to stay at light heavyweight, certainly cruiserweight for his career. Toney is a natural cruiserweight, if he wasn't boxing, just an everyday working guy, even in good shape. I mean he could never walk around at middle weight, he is naturally big boned, wide shouldered, barrel chested and stalky build. His build at middle weight was always some sort of poundage cutting weight, no matter what he ate he would never be able walk around a middle weight. Other wise he would have fought at lighter weights, you don't think Toney would have gone down another 1,2,3,4,5,6 weight classes and whooped *** all over those towns too ? I am 5'8, an athlete muscular and fit, I am naturally 180-190 lbs and could never walk around at 160 or 170, if I was extremely strict I could do around 175-180 and would cut weight, will be cutting weight to get to 168 lbs. Millions have weight control issues whether they eat like a bird or they eat what they want, it is not always a dietary issue.
Toney is a heavyweight because he wants to be one, he has always wanted to be a heavyweight and no matter how many people begged and pleaded with him he was going to work his way up to heavyweight. The only reason he did not win world titles at light heavyweight on his way up was because he was robbed twice against Griffin in which even people that hated on Toney said during the fight and after the fight. Both are well known undisputed robberies that were going to lead Toney to world title shots of some kind. Two fights in which Toney fought very well and looked healthy at his weight. He got robbed against Thadzi and said pretty screw it these guys are never going to give me a shot at this weight because they have to many champions they want to protect and on to cruiserweight he went. I am not going to speak on the last 4 years or so but if anyone doesn't think James was working hard between 2003 and 2009/10 ish than you should not be discussing boxing period.
I never said Toney's body does not respond to training, but has always had weight issues of which he has had to control and deal with and not all of those weight issues are just dietary. If anything James has always responded incredibly well to training, in fact that combined with his highest percentile of skill he responded to training to well because it seemed to have enabled him to let his body go to much in between fights and to not keep a high enough training regimen in between fights to not blow up in weight so much and to not do as much as he should have been doing in some camps. But him blowing up in weight is not just dietary, the man has health issues and has always had health issues when it comes to weight gain, millions of people have these issues, just not many are legendary boxers.
Oh wow !!!! EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS RIGHT HERE, SCHOOL IS IN SESSION, THIS GUY IS TELLING ME THIS :
"Blown-up cruiserweights Tomas Adamek, Steve Cunningham and Eddie Chambers deserve more to be heavyweight than Toney. They have built their bodies up by training, and training hard. Toney has built his body up...check that...rounded his body off by over-eating."
JAMES TONEY GETS ROBBED IN A EVEN BETTER WINNING PERFORMANCE THEN THE FIRST FIGHT AGAINST MONTELL GRIFFIN, HE BEATS MCALLUM AGAIN, GETS ROBBED AGAINST THADZI IN A FIGHT THAT ONLY LOOKED CLOSE TO THE UNTRAINED EYE AS THADZI LEANED, HELD AND TRIED TO SMOTHER TONEY AND THAN ON JUNE 14TH 1997 TONEY BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF STEVE LITTLE. NOBODY WORTH THEIR NAME OR SPOT AT LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT WAS GOING TO SIGN A CONTRACT TO FIGHT JAMES TONEY AND EVERY PROMOTER IN THE GAME WAS AVOIDING, DUCKING AND IN OF WORLD TITLE IMPLICATIONS WERE ROBBING HIM.
SO AFTER THIS STRETCH OF GOOD TO GREAT PERFORMANCES GOING IGNORED AND UNACKNOWLEDGED PURPOSELY BY THE BOXING WORLD INSIDERS TONEY FINALLY DECIDED THAT IT WAS TIME TO GO AFTER THE CRUISERWEIGHT DISIVION. AFTER ALL TIME WAS TICKING IN HIS PLIGHT AND DESIRE TO CLIMB THE WEIGHT CLASSES TO THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION.
JAMES TONEY TOOK ALL OF 1998 OFF AND SPENT IT TRAINING EXTREMELY HARD, SHEDDING THE MIDDLE WEIGHT AND LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT FRAME HE HAD AT TIMES PAINFULLY AND DREADFULLY EMPLOYED SINCE COMMITTING TO BOXING OVER A FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIP. JAMES TONEY BUILT A NEW FRAME, A FRAME THAT WAS MORE NATURAL TO HIM, SIMILAR TO THE STALKY 200 LBS QUARTERBACK HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. WELL OF COURSE BY THIS POINT HE HAD MORE OF A FILLED OUT GROWN MAN FRAME THEN THAT BUT I DIGRESS, NOT EVERYONE STAYS THE SAME SIZE THERE WHOLE LIFE, SOME PEOPLE FILL OUT A LOT. I AM NOT TALKING FAT, I AM TALKING BONE STRUCTURE/FRAME, YOUR MUSCLE, YOUR BONE DENSITY AND YOUR BODY CAN CHANGE AS WELL, THE WAY IT WORKS, THE WAY IT RESPONDS ETC. ANYHOW JAMES TONEY TOOK A WHOLE YEAR AND A HALF OFF THROUGH 1998 INTO 1999 TO BUILD HIS FRAME BACK AND BETTER TO CONQUER THE CRUISERWEIGHT DIVISION ON HIS WAY TO DO THE SAME IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION.
So don't sit there and tell me that James Toney ate himself to light heavyweight, cruiserweight and heavyweight like he is some fat, out of shape and idiotic moron who just can't stop eating.
How many times did James Toney actually not make weight ? 1 or 2 times in 90 + pro fights for a guy who has always had legit weight control issues aside from his dietary deficiencies.
Did Toney eventually let himself get out of hand at heavyweight ? yes no question. He let himself blow up to big, big weight a few to many times and now he can't get it off like he used to. At his lighter weights, he would blow up in weight between fights in varying degres, he could train and spar with anyone, so it wasn't all bad, but his body and training would take care of him and he would bounce back, lose the weight, be in great shape and win a lot of fights with a lot of great and entertaining performances. As a heavyweight though, he did not have to lose as much of that weight he gained in between fights, father time eventually caught up with James around 2012 and he has never been able to get a big chunk of weight off in a healthy fashion. I believe Toney cut weight at prize fighter and though I thought i beat Gavern, I believe he had weak performance because he was cutting weight to seem down in weight. Because if the James Toney that showed up against Lucas browne or Lemos showed up in Prizefighter he would won and Probably KO'd everyone even at around 250 lbs. He almost Ko'd Browne several times and he hurt browne more separate times than Browne hurt him. Yes Toney let his weight issues get the best of him as a heavyweight, but for the most part during this era we are discussing in this forum it was of no consequence, he was the most skilled fighter of the era, he delivered the best in and out of ring entertainment and provided the most intriguing matchups and story lines whether some happened or not, the ones that did were good, the fights were good, the best of the era.

-AkKnowledge :

Jones, Lebedev, Peter II, Griffin II and Lucas Brown. Holla!

Griffin 2: was an even better and easier win for Toney than their first fight, in fact Toney fought the second Griffin fight like everyone wanted him to fight the first one. Toney used his jab very effectively and his overall superior boxing skills were very obvious.
Peter 2: I disagree, it was a much closer fight than the first, it was the best fight of Sam Peter's career but he did not outbox Toney just because he danced around again at the end... If you hated on Toney for any reason, you gave that fight to Peter, if appreciate pugilism and "The Sweet Science" you gave the win to James Toney.
Lucas Browne: iffy for me, Toney won the first 6 rounds, and He definitely won a couple of the middle rounds, the rounds that Toney won, he won for sure, the rounds that Browne won, were not that secure.

-Radam G :

Griffin 2: was an even better and easier win for Toney than their first fight, in fact Toney fought the second Griffin fight like everyone wanted him to fight the first one. Toney used his jab very effectively and his overall superior boxing skills were very obvious.
Peter 2: I disagree, it was a much closer fight than the first, it was the best fight of Sam Peter's career but he did not outbox Toney just because he danced around again at the end... If you hated on Toney for any reason, you gave that fight to Peter, if appreciate pugilism and "The Sweet Science" you gave the win to James Toney.
Lucas Browne: iffy for me, Toney won the first 6 rounds, and He definitely won a couple of the middle rounds, the rounds that Toney won, he won for sure, the rounds that Browne won, were not that secure.

You could be suffering from personal-love blinding. Love blinds the syet outta you. Love won't let you see certain losses of Toney. Just as love halt people from seeing losses of Marquez To Da Manny and GOAT Ali to the late, great Kenny Norton.
The majority of the honest aficionados saw it the same as I did. Toney lost Bout II of both scraps. The first scraps were closer in his favorite. In scrap one, he clearly beat Peter. But with Griffin, it could have gone either. But in bout II IMHO, he LOST. Holla!

-the Roast :

I'm not getting paid enough to read all of this....:mad:

-stormcentre :

He was never going to be able to fight at 100 % for his entire life as a middleweight I don't get why so many people are unaware of peoples genes and body types. He may have been able to stay at light heavyweight, certainly cruiserweight for his career. Toney is a natural cruiserweight, if he wasn't boxing, just an everyday working guy, even in good shape. I mean he could never walk around at middle weight, he is naturally big boned, wide shouldered, barrel chested and stalky build. His build at middle weight was always some sort of poundage cutting weight, no matter what he ate he would never be able walk around a middle weight. Other wise he would have fought at lighter weights, you don't think Toney would have gone down another 1,2,3,4,5,6 weight classes and whooped *** all over those towns too ? I am 5'8, an athlete muscular and fit, I am naturally 180-190 lbs and could never walk around at 160 or 170, if I was extremely strict I could do around 175-180 and would cut weight, will be cutting weight to get to 168 lbs. Millions have weight control issues whether they eat like a bird or they eat what they want, it is not always a dietary issue.
Toney is a heavyweight because he wants to be one, he has always wanted to be a heavyweight and no matter how many people begged and pleaded with him he was going to work his way up to heavyweight. The only reason he did not win world titles at light heavyweight on his way up was because he was robbed twice against Griffin in which even people that hated on Toney said during the fight and after the fight. Both are well known undisputed robberies that were going to lead Toney to world title shots of some kind. Two fights in which Toney fought very well and looked healthy at his weight. He got robbed against Thadzi and said pretty screw it these guys are never going to give me a shot at this weight because they have to many champions they want to protect and on to cruiserweight he went. I am not going to speak on the last 4 years or so but if anyone doesn't think James was working hard between 2003 and 2009/10 ish than you should not be discussing boxing period.
I never said Toney's body does not respond to training, but has always had weight issues of which he has had to control and deal with and not all of those weight issues are just dietary. If anything James has always responded incredibly well to training, in fact that combined with his highest percentile of skill he responded to training to well because it seemed to have enabled him to let his body go to much in between fights and to not keep a high enough training regimen in between fights to not blow up in weight so much and to not do as much as he should have been doing in some camps. But him blowing up in weight is not just dietary, the man has health issues and has always had health issues when it comes to weight gain, millions of people have these issues, just not many are legendary boxers.
Oh wow !!!! EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS RIGHT HERE, SCHOOL IS IN SESSION, THIS GUY IS TELLING ME THIS :
"Blown-up cruiserweights Tomas Adamek, Steve Cunningham and Eddie Chambers deserve more to be heavyweight than Toney. They have built their bodies up by training, and training hard. Toney has built his body up...check that...rounded his body off by over-eating."
JAMES TONEY GETS ROBBED IN A EVEN BETTER WINNING PERFORMANCE THEN THE FIRST FIGHT AGAINST MONTELL GRIFFIN, HE BEATS MCALLUM AGAIN, GETS ROBBED AGAINST THADZI IN A FIGHT THAT ONLY LOOKED CLOSE TO THE UNTRAINED EYE AS THADZI LEANED, HELD AND TRIED TO SMOTHER TONEY AND THAN ON JUNE 14TH 1997 TONEY BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF STEVE LITTLE. NOBODY WORTH THEIR NAME OR SPOT AT LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT WAS GOING TO SIGN A CONTRACT TO FIGHT JAMES TONEY AND EVERY PROMOTER IN THE GAME WAS AVOIDING, DUCKING AND IN OF WORLD TITLE IMPLICATIONS WERE ROBBING HIM.
SO AFTER THIS STRETCH OF GOOD TO GREAT PERFORMANCES GOING IGNORED AND UNACKNOWLEDGED PURPOSELY BY THE BOXING WORLD INSIDERS TONEY FINALLY DECIDED THAT IT WAS TIME TO GO AFTER THE CRUISERWEIGHT DISIVION. AFTER ALL TIME WAS TICKING IN HIS PLIGHT AND DESIRE TO CLIMB THE WEIGHT CLASSES TO THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION.
JAMES TONEY TOOK ALL OF 1998 OFF AND SPENT IT TRAINING EXTREMELY HARD, SHEDDING THE MIDDLE WEIGHT AND LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT FRAME HE HAD AT TIMES PAINFULLY AND DREADFULLY EMPLOYED SINCE COMMITTING TO BOXING OVER A FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIP. JAMES TONEY BUILT A NEW FRAME, A FRAME THAT WAS MORE NATURAL TO HIM, SIMILAR TO THE STALKY 200 LBS QUARTERBACK HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. WELL OF COURSE BY THIS POINT HE HAD MORE OF A FILLED OUT GROWN MAN FRAME THEN THAT BUT I DIGRESS, NOT EVERYONE STAYS THE SAME SIZE THERE WHOLE LIFE, SOME PEOPLE FILL OUT A LOT. I AM NOT TALKING FAT, I AM TALKING BONE STRUCTURE/FRAME, YOUR MUSCLE, YOUR BONE DENSITY AND YOUR BODY CAN CHANGE AS WELL, THE WAY IT WORKS, THE WAY IT RESPONDS ETC. ANYHOW JAMES TONEY TOOK A WHOLE YEAR AND A HALF OFF THROUGH 1998 INTO 1999 TO BUILD HIS FRAME BACK AND BETTER TO CONQUER THE CRUISERWEIGHT DIVISION ON HIS WAY TO DO THE SAME IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION.
So don't sit there and tell me that James Toney ate himself to light heavyweight, cruiserweight and heavyweight like he is some fat, out of shape and idiotic moron who just can't stop eating.
How many times did James Toney actually not make weight ? 1 or 2 times in 90 + pro fights for a guy who has always had legit weight control issues aside from his dietary deficiencies.
Did Toney eventually let himself get out of hand at heavyweight ? yes no question. He let himself blow up to big, big weight a few to many times and now he can't get it off like he used to. At his lighter weights, he would blow up in weight between fights in varying degres, he could train and spar with anyone, so it wasn't all bad, but his body and training would take care of him and he would bounce back, lose the weight, be in great shape and win a lot of fights with a lot of great and entertaining performances. As a heavyweight though, he did not have to lose as much of that weight he gained in between fights, father time eventually caught up with James around 2012 and he has never been able to get a big chunk of weight off in a healthy fashion. I believe Toney cut weight at prize fighter and though I thought i beat Gavern, I believe he had weak performance because he was cutting weight to seem down in weight. Because if the James Toney that showed up against Lucas browne or Lemos showed up in Prizefighter he would won and Probably KO'd everyone even at around 250 lbs. He almost Ko'd Browne several times and he hurt browne more separate times than Browne hurt him. Yes Toney let his weight issues get the best of him as a heavyweight, but for the most part during this era we are discussing in this forum it was of no consequence, he was the most skilled fighter of the era, he delivered the best in and out of ring entertainment and provided the most intriguing matchups and story lines whether some happened or not, the ones that did were good, the fights were good, the best of the era.

I've got a few psychological issues, sometimes I think all problems can be solved with violence; like a carpenter thinks every problem is a nail waiting to be hammered.
I don't trust doctors when I'm shopping either, as they always charge me to stay away and/or tell me not to come back another day.
As a result I am self medicating and have recently doubled up for precautionary purposes, because I know you never can be too safe.
As I reach for my quails and oxies, can I ask please say a few things and also you a question?
It's clear even you agree James has had weight issues.
What appears to be in dispute is whether the nature of them (and or any aspect of James' negative performances) is due to James' eating or something else he may be responsible for.
On that note, given that several of James coaches/trainers - some dating back to when he was a middleweight, and including Roach - have all said that James doesn't really like to do roadwork, skipping, bag work and most other gym exercises . . . . he only likes to spar.
Do you think this - whether it is in combination with an eating disorder or not - has anything to do with James' physique, stamina, weight and this overall discussion?
Just asking, as all those omitted exercises can equate to around 2000 or more extra burnt calories a day that almost every other active professional fighter (but James) is burning?
Finally, 2 things;
A) Undisputed robbery - good phrase.
B) You're not going to find anyone on this site that appreciates James' skill more than me; so I hear you there brother.

-The Commish :

I've got a few psychological issues, sometimes I think all problems can be solved with violence; like a carpenter thinks every problem is a nail waiting to be hammered.
I don't trust doctors when I'm shopping either, as they always charge me to stay away and/or tell me not to come back another day.
As a result I am self medicating and have recently doubled up for precautionary purposes, because I know you never can be too safe.
As I reach for my quails and oxies, can I ask please say a few things and also you a question?
It's clear even you agree James has had weight issues.
What appears to be in dispute is whether the nature of them (and or any aspect of James' negative performances) is due to James' eating or something else he may be responsible for.
On that note, given that several of James coaches/trainers - some dating back to when he was a middleweight, and including Roach - have all said that James doesn't really like to do roadwork, skipping, bag work and most other gym exercises . . . . he only likes to spar.
Do you think this - whether it is in combination with an eating disorder or not - has anything to do with James' physique, stamina, weight and this overall discussion?
Just asking, as all those omitted exercises can equate to around 2000 or more extra burnt calories a day that almost every other active professional fighter (but James) is burning?
Finally, 2 things;
A) Undisputed robbery - good phrase.
B) You're not going to find anyone on this site that appreciates James' skill more than me; so I hear you there brother.

I know how much you appreciate Toney's skills, Storm, but I am right behind you. I am just saying that, as the promoter of two of his fights, all I wanted was for Toney to win. I could have done so much with him had he won. But, right there in front of me, I saw his lack of willpower,his lack of dedication. I am well aware of his large--though not tall--body type. Toney has a huge chest...butt...legs. But, from what I saw, and from whast I have heard from many reputable people, Toney had issues that were not merely weight-related because he had a large torso. Between fights, he let himself go. Too many pounds poured onto his big frame during his "down" time. I saw the man eat. He would have made my grandmother proud ("Eat darling, eat!"). Oh, how he ate.
Yet, I am sure he could have climbed into the ring with any heavyweight of the last 15 years and given him a damn good fight, if not beaten him! It's just that he didn't give of himself day in and day out the way other fighters do, even fighters with far less ability.
Toney is unquestionably a era great. He may even be an all-time great.
He was his own worst enemy!
-Randy G.

-stormcentre :

Yep, I think we're all on the same team here.
In my view Toney was/is brilliant.
Not many fighters can do what he has done and can do today, whilst only doing a small portion of the training; regardless of where you stand on the weight/eating issues.
I love how he comes out, stands in front of his opponent and then stays there and starts slipping, sliding, finding angles, and landing.
AkKnowledge is obviously passionate and maybe related (in some way) to James.
I think almost all of the losses that Radam posted were reasonably legitimate losses on Toney's part.
There's so many good Toney fights though, and we all know his ability and untapped potential; so I don't know why we can't just be happy with that and the fact that James is his own man.
He always has been, and as such he will train, eat, say, fight and probably truck exactly as he pleases.
A part of the problem - if it is that - is also a part of the greatness.
I'd like to see Shannon Briggs thrown in with James Toney.
No testing, no weight limit; just gloves and a referee.
Imagine the smack talk leading up to that fight !!!
Who would win may be another interesting question.
I know where my money would be; James Toney.

-AkKnowledge :

WHO EVER IN THERE RIGHT MINDS THINKS THAT GRIFFIN AND TONEY 2 WAS A GRIFFIN VICTORY SINCERELY NEEDS TO STUDY MORE FOOTAGE I MEAN HUNDRED IF NOT THOUSANDS OF HOURS. SAME AS THE THADZI FIGHT, WATCH THE NUANCES, DETAILS AND TOTALITY OF THE THADZI FIGHT, TONEY WON THAT BY ROUNDS.
PETER 2 & BROWNE, OKAY, CLOSE FIGHTS, CERTAINLY NOT AS WIDE AS CRITICS WILL DEPICT NOR WHAT YOU WILL SAY AS YOU PROBABLY HAVE NOT WATCHED THE FIGHTS NOR STUDIED THEM OR VIEWED THEM MORE THEN ONCE IF AT ALL. LEBEDEV, SERIOUS KNEE INJURY IN THE 2ND ROUND WHICH WAS OBVIOUS, ESPECIALLY AS WE KNOW TONEY WAS LOOKING VERY WELL IN TRAINING, HAS PERFORMED OFFENSIVELY MUCH BETTER SINCE THEN AND ON TOP OF THE KNEE INJURY WAS LIKELY SUFFERING FROM DECENT WEIGHT CUTTING SYMPTOMS.
Toney is number 3 easily, not just on what he has done,his record, the performances and the overall entertainment value he provided during this era but also because of the amount of fear he produced, being clearly robbed and screwed out of the top spot on multiple occasions in order to protect the poster boys of the era.
Like I said, Toney on his best day, beats any heavyweight of the last 20 years at least, and more then competes all time with any heavyweight. The Toney against Booker and Peter 1 among other versions we got to see and many along the years of his heavyweight tenure we did not get to see could be put against any heavyweight of all time and big chances of winning. We did not see the best of James Toney at heavyweight because of the era in which he was a heavyweight, because of the promoters and fighters alike, fighters can over rule promoters if they want to, but only if they want too; that and some health issues kept us from seeing the absolute best of James Toney as a heavyweight.

-Radam G :

I guess some of Toney's losses have been like beauty -- in the eyes of the beholder. Holla!

-The Commish :

I agree that Toney could "hang" with any of the top heavyweights of the last 20 years. But beat them? Beat George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko and Wladimir Klitschko?
In what? An eating contest?
-Randy G.

-stormcentre :

Toney, sparring, in a gym, relaxed and without too much pressure to set (or keep up with) a pace; yes - he probably would beat most heavyweights that are mentioned.
But, in a fight, different things happen.
Once an opponent - or his corner - realizes that you are more skilled than him, usually an adjustment is made to bring what advantages you have to the forefront of the fight's game-plan.
And in that sense, that means upping the pace.
Upping the pace, like finishing off and KOing a live and not exhausted opponent, usually brings considerations that almost always rely on sustained anaerobic fitness - which James has almost none of in a championship sense.
Which is why his more recent KO percentage against good opposition is not as it could be.
When Jirov realized James' boxing/technical superiority he upped the pace (upon instructions from his corner), and in doing so he nearly exhausted Toney.
But, to his masterful credit, Toney still came through in what was a spectacular light heavyweight fight and win.
That was a few years ago now, and James has not got any fitter - particularly in a sustained anaerobic fitness.
That's because - as I allude to in my above posts for many reasons pertaining to this discussion - James preferred training method is to spar.
Which happens at James' pace.
He's still awesome though.