The issue for last night was I (bear tank) dieing when Suen was up in Day phase. I kept dieing to high amount of [Fan of Flames] stacks. Specially when after the [Inferno] I had 3+ stacks and Suen charged with [Flames of Passion], I just died = too much fire damage. Ofc possibility was me not topped up fast enough for the end of [Inferno].

But other then that I just died cause I just have too many [Fan of Flames] on me. Our Paladin cannot keep aggro off from me... I do shit DPS in first phase as I draw the cranes in p1 and drag Suen around to reveal the spirits, but when it is my turn to have Suen, Paladin cannot keep her off from me and I end up with very high stacks. Even when I don't pop most of my DPS CDs. How to fix or counter that one? I cannot stop DPS, as then the boss's will be even higher on HP and is our group the tank is vital...

On our very last attempt of the evening on top of cranes I draw the tiger as well. The timing was bit off due to me taking Suen for the last spin before Day phase and I entered Tiger late. And even then, when I had minimal vengeance, minimal aggro on Suen, she still was clued to me.

I don't have that strong aggro on Suen once we hit p2 anyhow, as I FF+melee+taunt her to keep her on me, so I could move her (I am doing running in cat+dash+displacer beast to move). During p1 I keep loosing her to our paladin tank/healers/DPS. Which in the end results in too much spirits about, cause she is someplace else, where I would like her to be. I don't see that backpeddaling (to do some DPS on her) will be a viable option as I don't move fast enough that case.

If someone suggest me doing all the constellation, then that is a big problem to me. I can draw the crane, as it is a simple triangle shape. I can"manage" the tiger, but the serpent and the ox are a mystery to me. I might have the shape in front of me, I might know which stars to go to, but as soon as I get into the celestial realm, it is all fucked up... The fact that I am placed at a certain point and moving to the starting point just gets me lost and getting the second or third star right will take all the time mostly. I just lack the sense of room (I don't see the stars as a "picture")... I don't know how to erm explain it better. And I have been trying to draw Serpent/Ox in LFR on all of my chars... It doesn't change the fact that I just fail at those. I never been good at connect shit, lack the vision of things -_-

Doing the cranes at start, makes me miss one [Tears of the Sun], but that is not that big deal. Ofc keeping Suen on me after that is bit touch and go, but I am managing it. The problem is the RNG of the spirit placement. If they are stacked, all good. If they are not... crap. However when I tied drawing the Tiger it came bit too late, just cause I took the last [Tears of the Sun] before Day phase starts and entered Tiger late. other then that our 3rd healer was drawing everything else. How to optimize reveling the spirits if they are spread? But in general, this is least of our issues

Now moving on to the healing. We've tried it w/ 2 healers monk+druid, and they said that the damage was too much to heal by just the 2 of them. One DPS (our hunter) was running the celestials. Possible reason for that was the spirit damage in p1 as well. That's why we've tried 3 healing it, with monk+druid+priest. Priest was running the constellations.

On our best attempts Lu'lin was 35% and Suen was 50% (no BL during p1 and p2) when we hit the Dusk phase.
Here are our logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...ses&boss=68905
* Paladin was soloing Lu'lin in p1, I was doing cranes (+tiger on last attempt) and dragging Suen around in p1.
** Priest was running the celestials.

To sum up:

How to avoid me (bear tank) dieing and not overaggroing Paladin?
Who should be doing the dragging of Suen/the drawing actually?
Is there any chance we can 2 heal the fight?
Do our DPS need to do more DPS?

Pally Solo tanks Lulin while you do cranes on pull then the first time suen pops don't kite her(only one add out when she first spawns) and just build threat on her get full bleeds that along will make you never lose threat on her. When she spawns every time after that reveal a few adds(getting 2-5 really depends where they are but at least 2+ is good enough).

As for P2(i've solo tanked the fight since my first kill on my alt prot pally, but its really not needed imo) Each tank gets 2 stacks(as for your threat problem it is just how paladins are a bear will pull no matter how fast the pally is pressing(even a exact perfect rotation) the pally won't hold threat without either salving the other tank or the other tank stopping attacks(obviously not optimal but you might have to).

Should get either a healer(or w/e tank isn't tanking) to do Dragon right after 2nd Inferno so it lasts into inferno 3(so you don't need cds for this other than 1 really small one) so you can focus your cds on 1 and 2 (the first in p3 you can use first inferno cds for)

I would say not to 2 heal at all in terms of first kill.

As for DPS Wolland should be near Kvitsaus imo...they are different specs but they should not be that far apart unless they have a big gear gap.

Long as you can get lulin and suen to around 25-35% you should be fine.

Also, make sure Tiger is used for first Tidal waves(basically as p3 starts you should do it and let the pally solo tank both until you get uptop.

If you were to get another Tidal I would say use Dragon for it(get it done right after first inferno)

Also, make sure you lust right as Suen spawns(3mins into fight lines up perfectly with CDs) everyone should be using all dps cds on Suen at P2 start with lust and 5min/10min cds here too as you want to kill her asap since shes what makes the fight remotely difficult.

And for CDs for infernos(not sure what you have setup) but something like
1: Tranq + Personals
2: Disc Bubble + Bear Tranq
3: Pally AM (Dragon(done right after #2 so its rolling for this one)
4: (repeat of 1) + Personals

As for Monk's revival just use it during any inferno that just seems weak as a quick top off

Pally Solo tanks Lulin while you do cranes on pull then the first time suen pops don't kite her(only one add out when she first spawns) and just build threat on her get full bleeds that along will make you never lose threat on her.

Well, first time when Suen pops I am doing the cranes and just getting back close to the time she is going away again. I guess I will have to time better my finishing of constellation. But other then that, that is how it works for us. Paladin solotanks in P1.

When she spawns every time after that reveal a few adds(getting 2-5 really depends where they are but at least 2+ is good enough).

I do have healers saying and DPS as well that the spirits are doing waaaay too much damage to everyone and some die to it. If I cannot get enough of them out.

the other tank stopping attacks

The funny thing about that... If I don't touch a boss at all, and I have my bleeds on the boss. I still tend to pass his threat (megs heads eg.)... Which means if I am not back at the right time for first [Tears of the Sun] I will have to miss the second one as well for most to get my bleeds up.

Should get either a healer(or w/e tank isn't tanking) to do Dragon right after 2nd Inferno so it lasts into inferno 3

On topic of celestial drawing. If Tanks do p1 and p2 (the p2 part is a big ?? ) then p3 is for the third healer, right? Will the tanks drawing solve the exes stack issue one me? Or will this make thing harder and pally get too many stacks.

- Hold back a few secs after a taunt? Maybe announce taunts on vent or have your pally burst better after a taunt. For us it's only a problem if our druid has a dps increasing cd up.
- We had our offtank do it at first but now we have our hunter doing it, allows the offtank to do way more dps. You can see where the spirits are just watch where the little bolts are coming from.
- It's possible but 3healing with your priest/monk dpsing a little is better for a first kill
- DPS seems a bit low on your 7 min fight you have 1049k raiddps and you need 1047k single target dps on the bosses to beat the enrage about 1125k including adds. Your dps should probably be at 200k(P1) and dropping down to 170-180k in P2 instead of 150-160k but if you can increase your dps in P1 you might just make it.

It's possible to heal with either 2 or 3 healers but we found it easier to do with 3 because mistakes don't matter as much but it's doable with 2 if nobody fails (or if the red one decides to oneshot the first ice thing...) and requires increased amounts of healing. Your raid DPS is a bit on the lower side though. Sadly I can't access the logs from our firstkills anymore but I think 1.2 million raiddps should be easily doable in your gear (wowprogress tells me that you have an average itemlevel of 539).

You should taunt at 2 stacks of the fire debuff and doesn't your paladin give you hand of salvation when he taunts the first time? If he already does, just don't overaggro the first few seconds so he has a chance to get some vengeance himself and generate enough aggro. It doesn't help when you overaggro and your raid dies. That's just bad aggro management on your part (if he does everything he can to generate aggro. I don't have the knowledge to check if he's doing his job well. Just checked: 0 salvations casted during twins. Would be an easy thing to fix).

Who should be drawing: When progressing, we used our disc priest but nowadays it doesn't really matter who it is as long as the timing of the buffs are good.

Without knowing what sort of gear you guys got (which could be the reason), your dps seems a bit on the low side. If you want to 3 heal it, let the healer with the lowest output do the drawing. He/she should be out in time to help with Inferno healing and you really shouldn't need 3 healers outside of that.

I'm revealing adds in my raid as well, most tanking with a Warrior tank. So lets split this up;

Revealing adds: If you use Displacer Beast, the second she appears, that will already get you a heads start. Then after the speed bonus is off, you use Stampeding Roar or Dash - if neither is ready, you call for a Priest bubble (has to be talented to grant you movement speed though). That should take you more than half way around and unless you're really unlucky, that solves the adds issue. Sometimes though, the adds are all clunked up in the last little bit you can't reveal in one go and yes, then the healers have to heal through.

But if you're not doing the drawing, you should never be late for Tears of the Sun and thus the adds shouldn't be an issue.

About aggro. There's something I don't quite understand here. Cause in our raid, I start with Suen to build up some Vengeance, so that when Lulen appears, I can taunt her to the middle for cleave dps and it makes it more likely, that she'll have aggro on me for Tears of the Sun (not that it matter that much though). After that, I don't have aggro issues - not even with a Warrior tank. Is it possible that the aggro issue lies with your tanking buddy and not with you (i.e you not trying hard enough to dump your threat)?

Cause the second I'm done revealing adds, I help pick up the adds, then back to pouncing the boss in the face. It just seems a bit odd, that when your Pally tank is sitting full time on the boss, that he can't hold aggro from you, when you barely have any Vengeance and aren't hitting the boss for majority of the time.

About Fan of Flames; You should never have 3 stacks, as that can easily kill any tank. After the Inferno, you'll often have 2 stacks and when she comes charging at you, you'll want a CD. I often use SI just to make sure, I don't die from the charge. But even if you have to go kitty after a taunt swap and drop all Vengeance and let your bleeds fall off, so be it. Just don't get that third stack.

Thinking about it, I'm actually not sure if it is possible to avoid the charge, by moving out a second before Inferno is over. But getting charged with 2 stacks won't kill you, if you're topped off - even if you don't have a CD up for it.

Thanks for point the Hand of Salvation out. One always doesn't notice the minor details.

I will try to be more careful, one thing I am not doing is going to cat during tank swaps, point which I completely tend to forget. But thanks again for pointing it out. I've gotten bit careless with my threat as it seems (I bask in glory of 5+ stacks on HC IQ until I get HoPed by the pala tank, cause windstorm is coming)
<-----BAD BEAR
We had the same issue on Jinni HC, but we managed it w/o me having to drop vengeance/threat/stop DPS somehow.

Lu'lin's aggro is not an issue... no way in hell I can pull threat on her in p1. Suen is the one which is my downfall in p2.

Salvation x 2 with Clemency is nice but if it's a general aggro issue, I'm thinking you'll over aggro the second it wears off again. As I said, might be worth looking into, if the problem lies with your tanking buddy?

Using the Disc's Pain sup the pally could take 4-5 while you draw Dragon. Unglyphed DP(no reason to have it glyphed on this fight anyway) for #3, Pain for 4 guardian for 5.

I mean I take 9 with 1 cd per just bigger as the stacks get higher on my pally who only has like 720k hp cuz i dont use stam anything haste food/elixirs all the way. Fan of flames really doesn't do that much dmg(on pally tanks at least) i never drop below 50% on any hits.

so you should try that if you want to get a tank to do dragon just ahve him use cds for a few hits(no cds should ever be used for the 2nd fan each tank takes imo

Also tell your prot pally to get the dps cloak and dps meta the tank shit is worthless atm until next patch(and even then debatable on 10s)

Tank meta gets double the proc chance(60+% uptime next patch atm its shit) and dps meta gets nerfed by 40% proc chance for tanks next patch...but for now you should def be using them free 10% dps gain for tanks

Salvation x 2 with Clemency is nice but if it's a general aggro issue, I'm thinking you'll over aggro the second it wears off again. As I said, might be worth looking into, if the problem lies with your tanking buddy?

Using the Disc's Pain sup the pally could take 4-5 while you draw Dragon. Unglyphed DP(no reason to have it glyphed on this fight anyway) for #3, Pain for 4 guardian for 5.

I mean I take 9 with 1 cd per just bigger as the stacks get higher on my pally who only has like 720k hp cuz i dont use stam anything haste food/elixirs all the way. Fan of flames really doesn't do that much dmg(on pally tanks at least) i never drop below 50% on any hits.

so you should try that if you want to get a tank to do dragon just ahve him use cds for a few hits(no cds should ever be used for the 2nd fan each tank takes imo

Also tell your prot pally to get the dps cloak and dps meta the tank shit is worthless atm until next patch(and even then debatable on 10s)

Tank meta gets double the proc chance(60+% uptime next patch atm its shit) and dps meta gets nerfed by 40% proc chance for tanks next patch...but for now you should def be using them free 10% dps gain for tanks

You're raiding 25 man aren't you? With a lot more gear and a lot more CD's available. Also, my bear is sitting at 548 ilvl and unless I'm at full HP or close, I have still managed to die having 2 stacks of Fan of Flames, when I get charged. Keep in mind, this is a progress kill for them. And the OP describes how he dies to the third stack. What you're suggesting, will only work once, maybe twice - assuming both Pain Sup AND Life Cocoon is available. And even then, you've just blown the only 2 major CD's you got, leaving you with nothing for "oh shit" situations that tend to happen during a progress kill.

With 3 healers, there's no reason why you don't just play it safe and let the lowest output healer do the drawing or even the lowest dps. But imo it's silly trying to let the Pally live rotating both raid CD's and all of his own CD's, just so the other tank can draw.

Okay, so not trying to be rude here. But if it is indeed a general issue for him, maybe it's time for him to figure out, what he's doing wrong? Cause it must be annoying having to tank with someone, who can't even hold aggro on Megaera tbh. I mean, he must doing something wrong and I'm sure that's easily fixable.

I'll add a little bit.
if you're three healing it then there is no question that one of your healers should do all the celestial. It works out very well because they end up there to heal during the inferno or tidal wave, and be drawing when they really aren't needed. I will post the guid ei have in our guild forms here, however it doesn't contain a drawing guide. and they will need DBM/bigwigs

Phase 1:
Enter crane about 4 seconds after the fight starts, complete it when there is around 2 seconds left on the light of day timer.

Phase 2:
wait until there is 25-30 seconds left until nuclear inferno then hit tiger. you will want a small speed boost to complete in time. You want to complete it at ~5 seconds left to inferno to give yourself time to find the comet.

Wait until 20-25 seconds before second inferno and use ox.

Finally wait until 20-25 seconds before third infero to use serpent.

Phase:3
You're going to want to start this phase be using tiger immediately when its back up. you will need a good speed boost to complete it in time before the first tidal wave.

after tidal wave there will be about a 15 second gap until inferno, stack for it and once it is done run to ox. use it right away to make sure you complete it in time for tidal wave. ( in fact the faster you complete it the better because ox buff lasts for 30 seconds.

Same drill, wait for the inferno to complete then use serpent before the next tidal wave is out.

Phase4:
Use cranes and collect loot.

If they follow that guide there should be little issue with your celestial's

Also I know your priest is main spec shadow but they could at lest put some effort into their healing gear. I want to smack them looking at the armory.
side note, that inscribed hydra spawn bag is such garbage he's better off using a dps trinket.

After looking at his armory. Change meta to dps one atm, it's not even worth taking tank meta at all. Next patch it will probably be the way to go, but until then get dps one.
Also take the dps cloak, even post 5.4 the dps cloak will be better, the `Ardent Defender` sort of proc from tank cloak is very poor, espically since it dosen't raise health after proccing, if you are at 10%, take a 1m hit, cloak procs, you'll stay at 10% to be shut down instantly after.

The goal of a tank is not to allow yourself to die, why take a cloak which allows you to slack? Plus the dps cloak is massive dps increase.... and oh my, the stats!.

He needs to get rid of the stamina gems, i know he's done it cause he's high on hit already but try get better gear, get rid of the dodge/hit and some parry.
Also just my opinion but if he's having threat issues, swap the leg and shoulder tank enchants for dps ones, you do not need stamina at all even for 13 heroic this tier.
And changing the stamina enchants from cloak + chest might help, the cloak is normally for hit, so maybe miss that one out till he has better gear to not be at 10% hit. But swap chest for +80 stats. Again Stamina is overkill.

Last thing i wanna mention is play style i guess.

He's at 541ilvl heck thats what i JUST got and i'm at 13hc now, pushing 170k give or take 10k on hc meg, (more veng) but back when i progressed /a few kills after on normal mag i was always pushing 90-100k. (thinking 520-530ilvl? or less?) so 60k at 541 is worrying.

Is he Glyping/specing for fights, might help a lot. I tend to use alabster shield, Final Wrath, Focussed shield as a single target build for magaera + Focussed wrath as a minal glyph too. To focus on a head. I use lights hammer for rampages also to help healers but if he dosen't need to help them (they are coping) could go with Execution sentence, with vengeance this thing hits like a truck, people say `worst talent for prot` nah. Lights hammer/prism are good utility to help the raid when needed but ES is a dps gain for the pally otherwise. I've had 100k's ticks from ES and a ending of 600k +.

A bit more OT now.

For twins we 2 tank 3 heal 5 dps, prot pally takes Lulin 100% and i never kill any beasts off, they just give awesome vengeance. Sacred shield at high vengeance and self heal via dpsing as much as possible (SoInsight heals). Should peak 300k dps easy this way too. Come P2, start killing off the beasts you'll probably have 2 around 70% or lower, and 1-2 around 10-30% just from aoe.

We have a healer in P1 do statues, 2heals is enough if everyone is spread and such. The Ot is basically just dpsing while no Suen, and running around with Suen when possible. Come P2, we lust and nuke as much as possible, healer doing statues stilll. Come P3 one tank takes Suen (pally) the other takes Lulin. Healer still does statues.

can't help with when we use statues cause i honestly can't remember the order but we use one near the pull of fight then in P2 on inferno, and in P3 the slowing one before first tidal wave.

Also I know your priest is main spec shadow but they could at lest put some effort into their healing gear. I want to smack them looking at the armory.

Can you please elaborate why?

For twins we 2 tank 3 heal 5 dps, prot pally takes Lulin 100% and i never kill any beasts off, they just give awesome vengeance. Sacred shield at high vengeance and self heal via dpsing as much as possible (SoInsight heals). Should peak 300k dps easy this way too. Come P2, start killing off the beasts you'll probably have 2 around 70% or lower, and 1-2 around 10-30% just from aoe.

Hmm... This sounds rather interesting and a worth to try.

I will try to get the paladin to reply here, no guarantees though. He can explain better what he does. And as for meg... Well... I am bored... I never get to tank the head (minus the first one) which needs to be DPSed... So I just pop my CDs...

>How to avoid me (bear tank) dieing and not overaggroing Paladin?
I'm at a total loss on this one dude. Looking at your parses, your Prot Paladin's DPS seems fine. Check to see if he has Righteous Fury on? Use a threat meter? Make sure you aren't fat-fingering taunt? I don't know. Then again I'm also confused as to why you have some straight Stamina gems as a 10M Guardian Druid, and why your Prot Paladin is using the tank meta in a 10M guild in 5.3. People killed this successfully at 520~ iLvl, you don't need EHP from gems at 540 iLvl in a 10M as a Guardian Druid or Prot Paladin, or even from trinkets for that matter.

>Who should be doing the dragging of Suen/the drawing actually?
Prot Paladin should be dragging Suen around IMHO, though I suppose a Guardian Druid could do it just as well. Use Speed of Light and have a Monk Tiger's Lust him if possible, it makes revealing the adds a total joke.
If you're 2 healing, have a DPS draw all of the celestials -- your Ele Shaman is by far the best option out of the available players I see; otherwise I'd say MW Monk/RDruid.

>Is there any chance we can 2 heal the fight?
Yes, easily. I would suggest having your Disc + RDruid do it, though Disc + MW can work as well. I'm honestly not sure why you even have a Disc in the raid if you're not using PW:S/Spirit Shell to absorb Crashing Stars damage, you can essentially nullify that entire mechanic simply by having your Disc watch their timers and blanket absorbs on the ranged DPS and healers before it goes out.

The first phase will be a lot harder to 2 heal without a Disc unless your Prot Paladin does an amazing job revealing adds, and even then you'll probably have to use at least one celestial in P1 to pull it off considering it's still progression. RDruid + MW Monk is a pretty horrible combination to 2 heal this fight with.

>Do our DPS need to do more DPS?
Yeah, they do.. but a lot of that can be blamed on the fact that you used Bloodlust on zero attempts. Seeing 7+ minute long attempts with no Bloodlust is just insane. The boss should be dead after 7 minutes and you should already be distributing loot.

Check to see if he has Righteous Fury on? Use a threat meter? Make sure you aren't fat-fingering taunt?

It is always on, he never DPSs. We both have one. And nope, no taunting, that I am sure of.

Then again I'm also confused as to why you have some straight Stamina gems as a 10M Guardian Druid

I have stamina gems for Tortos HC and tbh with you, I don't see a point why should I slap something else there.
I just feel having that extra bit of stamina doesn't really gimp my DPS in any way. 63+% crit with raid buffs, 113+% with RoR proc. And if you say haste... More DPS on my side doesn't help along the fact that I out DPS the paladin anyway if it is pure tank swap fight.

If we 3 heal it, a healer will have to do it, not a DPS. Our priest was mainly drawing, so I have no idea how much time did he spend outside the spirit world.

Paladin should be dragging Suen around. Use Speed of Light and have a Monk Tiger's Lust him if possible, it makes revealing the adds a total joke.

Why paladin?

We used no BL as we thought to use in p3. And seeing as we almost never made it there... Ehm... Well... That's why no lust.

> Why paladin?
Speed of Light (45sec CD). Though TBH this is just personal preference. I suppose a Guardian Druid could do it decently too with Dash, though that's not going to be up anywhere near as often as Speed of Light, which will make P1 a lot harder.

>We used no BL as we thought to use in p3. And seeing as we almost never made it there... Ehm... Well... That's why no lust.
All I'm saying is, the fight should realistically be over before you reach the 8 minute mark. The fact that you have 7+ minute long attempts with no Bloodlust is insane to me. Use it earlier, I'd say as soon as you hit Phase 2 when you have all those revealed adds to AOE down. This will also help healers catch up in healing.

>I have stamina gems for Tortos HC and tbh with you, I don't see a point why should I slap something else there.
If that's your preference I'm not going to tell you to do anything different, but you were the one that said "I cannot stop DPS, as then the boss's will be even higher on HP" which suggests you think tank damage matters, and neither you nor your prot paladin are doing particularly impressive DPS for 540 iLvl on this fight. The MT in my guild does 330K+ DPS on this fight, OT does 100K-150Kish.

You have very good tanks Lothrik ^^.
I died twice on our longest attempt and I didn't have a chance to spend that long on boss cause I was doing drawing/draggin Suen around in p1. Granted, possible could be doing more, but when you are dead/not on any target DPS, it is hard to pull out any numbers. ^^ Specially when you get your tank number after a kill.

As for running displacer beast is up for each Suen's appearence, for 1 you have dash, for another one you have Stampeding Roar. But not going to argue w/ you ^^

Yes ofc, tank damage matters. But if I do more DPS then I would do know, which I highly doubt if I'd switch my stamina gems, then even me having to stop DPS, dropping vengeance wouldn't make much of a difference in a long run. As getting more "crit/haste+more possible DPS, while having to stop completely" vs "maybe bit less DPS, less aggro issues" is technically the same to me (but I could be wrong here).

But anyhow, thanks for the ideas, suggestion. Keep em' coming. Would be really awesome to get 6/13 before the patch