John J . Drew interview

This i s an interview with John J . Drew conducted by Andrew Manis
on December 29 , 1988.
ANDREW MANIS: Mr. Drew, could you begin by givi ng me your
personal background . How long have you lived in Bi rmingham?
MR. DREW: I was president of the Alexander and Company General
Insurance Agency . We speciali ze in fire and casualty automobile
insurance. We have all classes of coverage t hroughout the State
of Al abama . I am a graduate of Morehouse College. I am 80 years
of age. My son now is carrying on the work in our office .
Marti n Luther King, I called him "Mike" because he was a very
close personal friend and a c l ose visitor to our home. So was
his fa ther. His fathe r and I were schoolmates at Morehouse and,
of course, that brought on a little closer friendship with him
with me by virtue of his father and by virtue of the fact, of
course, that I was concerned with our Civil Rights Movement here
in Birmingham. I served with qui t e a few committees in the Civil
Rights Movement . I was primari l y concerned with the time when we
had a lot of our friends in jail. And, of course , being i n
business, I knew a lot of the people who could help so far as
bond in these situations . I did quite a bit with proper notices
which we filed to get all of the doctors out of jail and all
that. Marti n , Mike , whom I me t here in our home any number of
times, i n fact he stopped here with us, my wife and I. I wish
s he was here because she was very close to the situation and , of
course , Martin, Fred and Wyatt Walker and a lot of others who
have come here. My wife used to like to cook and she would feed
1
them , Ra l ph Abernathy and the group . So that i s my brief
background.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you know Dr . King as a boy?
MR . DREW : No, no, I didn't .
ANDREW MANIS: When was your first .
MR . DREW: My first meeting with him was in Montgomery . If you
can recall, that was a t a time when they had quite a few station
wagons trying t o take the maids and people to work and the
insurance people cancelled out their insurance coverage. Marti n
called me , or someone told him about me I guess, Mr . Alexander
who was a close friend of mine, and I went to Montgomery t o meet
him . I was able to arrange liability coverage on the station
wagons whi ch kept being cancell ed out. That was my first meeting
with him and after that we were close friends .
ANDREW MANIS: Let me go back a little bit and ask you where you
were reared and what your background was growing up.
MR. DREW: I completed high school at Emerson High School in
Mobile. I left Mobile in 193 1, no 1927, and went to school at
Morehouse College in Atlanta.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you come from a particularl y well educated
family?
MR. DREW: No , none of my father -- my mother was a housewife and
my fat her was a railroad fireman and that was the -- well , you
can imagine, it was not an educated or cultural family background
or anythi ng like that.
ANDREW MANIS: What did it mean to go to Morehouse?
2
MR. DREW: Well, it meant a whole lot for me. Actually I had a
scholarship to go to Talladega [College]. At that time Morehouse
had a field scout. If I can recall, his name was B. J. Robinson,
who went to various high schools and tried to recruit deserving
young men to come to Morehouse offering scholarships. At that
time I was somewhat of an athlete too. I could run and I played
football at school. He persuaded me to go to Morehouse. And
another thing what attracted me too, was that most of my friends
went to Talladega. Somehow I wanted to get into a new
environment and Atlanta afforded a new environment. I wanted to
try that. My first year was -- I enjoyed it very much.
ANDREW MANIS: What about the religious background of your
family?
MR. DREW: My whole family was Methodist, AME Methodist,
particularly my mother. My father was a nonchurch-going man.
But my mother was a Methodist and, of course, I was reared and
came up in the Methodist church. I am still a member.
ANDREW MANIS: Have you always been relatively active in the AME
church?
MR. DREW: No. I have not always been -- let me see, I was
active for a great numbers, serving on the board, the trustee
board and later on I felt that I couldn't continue with the
meetings. I was always active as a member but I have not in
recent years been active in participating with the boards. I
would offer my business background. When it came to building a
new church, my name was on the note and all that.
3
ANDREW MANIS: How did you first come to be invol ved in Civil
Rights?
MR. DREW: Well , ah ...
ANDREW MANIS : You mentioned going to Montgomery druing the
Boycott , was that the firs t ?
MR . DREW: Well , let me say this. I was concerned prior t o thi s
time because of my involvement in appeal very few Bl acks are
i n the general insurance f i eld. The reason for it is get ting
companies to g i ve you l i cense to p l ace their business , compani es
like U.S . F. & G. , Aetna Casualt y and al l that. So this concerned
me a lot . I would make sever a l t r ips to New York every year ,
going to the home offices of these companies , taking a portfolio ,
and telling them how much business I could give them and I would
go to local people , local agents because they might be able to
see this. That gave me the feeling that I wanted to do something
about it. That got me started and i t was purely economics for me
at the time and of course you got into a lot of what the industry
was doing to us . The fact that t hey would accept us as Negro
risks was another t hing and a lot of companies didn ' t want to
issue a l iability poli cy , automobile policy , and they were saying
to me first of all that "John , suppose , if he sued , we cannot get
justice in the courts. " And they were reluctant to issue even on
the terms of the policy, so I began to see that we had to prove
that the Negroes were good risks, too . And I think it he l ped a
lot because local insurance lawyers have gone into court and won
many cases .
4
ANDREW MANIS: When did you first become acquainted with Fred
Shuttlesworth?
MR . DREW: That I cannot tell you. I cannot remember the date or
the time. I thought about that the other day when you called me.
I cannot remember . He pastored here and I knew him. He has been
to my home, but as to the date I can't remember. I can't even
remember the year.
ANDREW MANIS : Well he came to Birmingham at least to pastor in
March of 1953 , and the found i ng of the Alabama Christian Movement
was in June 1956.
MR. DREW: Well now , that would be the time I think that we
became acquainted . That woul d be a good time.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recal l what your i mpressions of him were?
First impressions?
MR. DREW: I hope you will put this in the right way , because I
would never want him to think that I look down on him. Fred , to
me, was the most fearless leader of the whole Civil Rights
Movement . To me he stands out over C. T. Vivi an or anybody else
so far as being fearless . He would go to the front of the fight.
The only thing that used to sort of annoy me a little bit was his
quest for the limelight. I mean I remember when his church was
bombed. I think Dr . King was here and we cal l ed trying to find
out how he was. He said , "Doctor , talk to me, did you see me on
television?" It was that type of thing. That doesn ' t say
anything really from the man. But he wanted to be in the
limelight. He didn' t want to be left out, and I sort of thought
5
that wasn't too important.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you, did you have many opportunities to
observe Shuttlesworth in action, in various contexts?
MR. DREW: He was straightforward in his talks. I think he could
move people into action. I think also he talked straight but he
was, to me, a man that was not controllable when you think of him
working with the group. You know, if he had his mind set to do
something, he was going to do that and even Dr. King could not
control. Held say, "I'm going to take this action. II It so
happened it was all for the good.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you your general recollection to these
events and maybe how you responded to them personally, what you
felt at the time of these events? Perhaps nothing, but perhaps
you had some recollection of those, for example, you mentioned
the bombing a moment ago and this telephone conversation. Do you
have any other recollections about that particular event that
stand out?
MR. DREW: No, not any that I could recall that stand out. Some
small incidents or, but they are too small to really recognize.
Some were annoying.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I am sure they would be interesting.
MR. DREW: For instance, we have a maid that works two or three
days a week. She has been with us twenty-five or thirty years.
Fred was stopping with us that night for some reason. He liked a
lot of lemonade. He kept calling "give me some lemonade." She
got annoyed. What kind of man is this, sit back there and just
6
kept calling -- these are littl e incidents that I don't think
they are important but he liked his attention . He liked
attention and of course he was not a Martin Luther King. He was
not a Ralph Abernathy but he was a good member of the . .
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember your impressions when the story
came wide l y known in Bi rmingham about his attempts t o get his
children registered in Phil lips High School and the beating he
experienced there?
MR. DREW: No, I don 't remember any of the incidents. I know it
happened but I don ' t remember anything particul ar about that?
ANDREW MANIS : What about the freedom rides in 196 1?
MR. DREW: One thing Fred spoke out vocal l y about it , and
anywhere he could . That's as far as I know. I can 't remember
h i s . . •
ANDREW MANIS: When, and unde r what circumstances , did you learn
that the Alabama Christian Movement and the Southern Christian
Leadership Conference were going to collaborate on a direct
action campaign?
MR . DREW: I can't recall . Do you mean the date and time?
ANDREW MANIS: Not necessarily the date but how you learned of
it?
MR. DREW: Well , the two groups, Alabama Christian Movement ,
what ' s the o t her group?
ANDREW MANIS: Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
MR. DREW: The Southern Christian Leadership Conference was a
nati onal group and the other one was a local group . I was
7
concerned with the local situation and of course , being l ocal, we
felt the need of help from the national organization. That's
when I learned about that .
ANDREW MANIS: In September of 1962, there were some negotiations
between some Blacks in Birmingham and the City Commission
regarding segregation signs and largely that had to do with the
fact that the Southern Christian Leadership Conference was going
to have its convention here in Birmingham in September of 1962.
The power structure in Birmingham was afraid that as a result of
t hat convention there mi ght be massive demonstrations and in
order to stave off those demonstrations , the merchants took the
signs out of the stores but l ater Bull Connor put pressure on
t hose me r chants and they came back .
MR. DREW: Well, okay , I remember that very very well . Even
prior to that a group of us , and we had some whites concerned
with that, David Vann was one. We met with what we t hought to be
the power in Birmingham, the Chamber of Commerce , so far as
segregation at lunch counters , toilets that Negroes could go to
in downtown stores, employment of Bl acks in stores . We met with
these people, and met with these people on any number of
occasions. Met some time with Sid Smyer , who was quite a guy.
And I am trying to think of some of the other whites who were
t here, James Head was there , trying to take action to do
something that was right for the good of the city and as I
recall, [Art} Haynes was the interim mayor of the c ity , who was a
terrible man. I think we tried to meet with him on a Sunday to
8
get permission to ask for funds and meet with people in the
churches. I don1t know. We couldn1t get to him. We didn1t want
to do anything to break the law. That is what I know about that
situation.
ANDREW MANIS: What is your most vivid recollections of the
actual demonstrations themselves?
MR. DREW: I guess I thought like everybody else, first of all,
the Birmingham Fire Department turning their hoses on the people,
that's the picture that remains in my mind forever and naturally,
of course, the crime against the nation as a whole was the
bombing of the church.
ANDREW MANIS: Did Dr. King stay with you regularly during that
time?
MR. DREW: Yes, yes, he did, most of the time, but on two or
three occasions he stopped at the A. G. Gaston Motel.
ANDREW MANIS: As those demonstrations proceeded and grew and
finally the power structure began to negotiate and meet with
different Blacks and the Senior Citizens Committee was a group of
whites, of course, but some Blacks met with the senior citizens
committee, did you not participate in some of those negotiations?
MR. DREW: Yes, yes, I think I did in most of them. Reverend
Ware, I think, we had an Episcopal priest who was very much
concerned and I am thinking about the Blacks -- the gist of this
meeting was, it1s been some time ago, I can1t recall, the gist of
the meeting was to have patience wait and try to keep as much
calm among the people as we could.
9
ANDREW MANIS: Early in May of the first demonstrations President
Kennedy or Attorney General Kennedy sent one of his lieutenants,
Burke Marshall.
MR. DREW: Yes sir!
ANDREW MANIS: To more or less arbitrate . . • .
MR. DREW: Right!
ANDREW MANIS: And you were part of that group of Blacks who met
as negotiators. Shuttlesworth was also part of that discussion,
was he not?
MR. DREW: That's right!
ANDREW MANIS: What can you recall about Shuttlesworth's input in
those meetings?
MR. DREW: We l l, Burke Marshall came here. He came to this very
house. At this time this house wasn't here, it was on the
freeway but this same spot. Came here. Through the al l ey way,
he was afraid to come because things were very hot. As I recall,
Fred was not with us in that particular meeting. I was trying to
think who was at my house at the time. Incidently, we talked to
Kennedy right from this house . My message was , during that time
things were very explosive -- to Mr. Marshall -- Burke Marshall
-- we needed help, Federal help. That was the message I gave.
Right here. We were sitting here with some others were here too,
but I don 't recall Fred being here. He may have but I don't
recall.
ANDREW MANIS: There would have been several meetings I would
suspect.
10
MR. DREW: Yeah, but that was the only one that we met with him.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay. What about any meetings of that same
negotiating group before Marshall came to town? Can you recall
any meetings in which Shuttlesworth had any significant input
into those discussions?
MR. DREW: He certainly did, but I can't recall. He had a lot of
input, but I simply cannot pinpoint the time or event.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recall in general the atmosphere of the
meetings and generally how it felt to be in those meetings?
MR. DREW: Well, as I recall they were confrontacious. They
were not all comfortable. I didn't feel were getting to the
other party, other side. In fact, we felt a constant fear of
tomorrow's happening and nonacceptance of what they were trying
to do together.
ANDREW MANIS: I've read that in one of those first meetings,
negotiating sessions, one of the white participants began with a
very blunt question of "NoW what is it you niggers want?" Do you
remember who that was?
MR. DREW: Yeah, Sid Smyer. Big banker here. As we met, he
finally came around but he was a tough man. Sid Smyer.
ANDREW MANIS: What did it take to get him to come around?
MR. DREW: I think Sid did not want to see a race riot. First of
all he became violently ill and I think the pressure on him was
great from hearing people like James Head, saying "Sid, the
writing is on the wall here. We've got to change our ways." I
would guess so.
11
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any particular times at those
negotiations that you were annoyed at Shuttlesworth or is he just
the kind of person who, every time you were around him, you found
yourself annoyed?
MR. DREW: That is a difficult question for me to answer. I
rather think that there were certainly some situations but to
give you a pinpoint answer, I don't know. One of the things that
was just obvious for me with Fred, of course, was the limelight
of the situation -- God knows, he deserved it, but he wanted to
be sure that you recognized Fred Shuttlesworth. I think that's
primarily it. It didn't take away from the greatness of the man.
I'll answer it that way.
ANDREW MANIS: When the negotiations reached some agreement,
Shuttlesworth was in the hospital and there was some decision to
call off the demonstrations and as a number of writers have
written and others have talked about, the negotiations almost
came unraveled, or however you want to say it, because of
Shuttlesworth's disagreement with the terms and then, of course,
there is what is described as a rather confrontive meeting that
occurred here in which Shuttlesworth -- Fred had words with Dr.
King.
MR. DREW: Yeah, well, I think that came about -- Dr. King wanted
to involve most people, particularly other ministers. Fred
didn't get along well with other ministers. This was as far as I
recall. When they didn't come around he would raise hell if he
couldn't get -- for instance, if he wanted to have a meeting at
12
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any particular times at those
negotiations that you were annoyed at Shuttlesworth or is he just
the kind of person who , every time you were around him, you found
yourself annoyed?
MR. DREW: That is a difficult question for me to answer. I
rather think that there were certainly some situations but to
give you a pinpoint answer, I don ' t know. One of the things that
was just obvious for me with Fred, of course , was the limelight
of the s ituation -- God knows , he deserved it, but he wanted to
be sure that you recognized Fred Shuttlesworth. I think that's
primarily it. It didn't take away from the greatness of the man.
I 'll answer it that way.
ANDREW MANIS: When the negotiations reached some agreement ,
Shuttlesworth was in the hospital and there was some decision to
call off the demonstrations and as a number of writers have
written and others have tal ked about, the negotiations almost
came unraveled, or however you want to say it, because of
Shuttleswort h ' s disagreement with the terms and then , of course,
there is what is described as a rather confrontive meeting that
occurred here in which Shuttlesworth -- Fred had words with Dr .
King.
MR. DREW: Yeah, well , I think that came about -- Dr . King wanted
to i nvolve most people , particularly other ministers. Fred
didn't get along well with other ministers. This was as far as I
recall. When they didn't come around he would raise hell if he
couldn 't get -- for instance, if he wanted to have a meeting at
12
Bethel Baptist Church and this preacher would be scared and say
"no" he thought that was awful. And he had a point. So, that
was I think the main thing. He didn't get the cooperation of
other ministers. Neither did Martin Luther King. Neither did
Dr. King until later, until they found out his Movement was so
very, very important. You'd be surprised at how many Black
churches would not let us meet there.
ANDREW MANIS: So what is your recollection of that occasion?
MR. DREW: I can't recall. I must tell you I can't recall the
occasion. I know it happened but I cannot tell you. I may
remember it later but at this point I simply cannot remember.
ANDREW MANIS: Was there a time when Dr. King may have talked to
you, and made an off-hand remark about having difficult relations
with Shuttlesworth?
MR. DREW: Yeah. He said on several occasions -- Dr. King had
several big people like Hosea Williams who was paid by his church
to turn to the Movement. There was no control over that man. He
was just there. Where Dr. King had a plan of action, some of the
ministers didn't agree and that brought on a little
confrontation. He would say "Now, what the little brother wanna
do?" but he was very calm with it and very patient. That's all
I can say about that.
ANDREW MANIS: What would you say was the general feeling in the
Black community about Fred Shuttlesworth?
MR. DREW: I think he was well-liked. Well loved. I think he
was well liked. He was fearless and some people felt like he was
13
crazy, because as I said before, he would be in front of the
firing line. There was some feeling, of course, that he was not
fully qualified to take a leadership Movement. But that is true
with any leader I would think.
ANDREW MANIS: How important was he -- I guess a different way to
ask it would be where does he fit in terms of importance among
the influential people?
MR. DREW: Well , I think he could move people. He could move
people. He could move persons -- you know, Black people have a
Middle Class like everybody e l se -- middle class, doctors and a
lot of the upper class Blacks, they were well heeled financially
and were not particularly concerned about the Movement but
Shuttlesworth was very important in moving those people, moving
them into action. Even with their money or what not.
ANDREW MANIS: That is interesting to hear you say that but I
have seen some analyses that suggest that the Black middle class
tended not to be significantly followers of Shuttlesworth.
MR. DREW: I disagree with that. They may not have admitted it,
but I think he moved a lot into action that would not have been
involved if it had not been for his persistence and his preaching
and his begging them to become involved.
ANDREW MANIS: What do you think was the source of his ability to
move people?
MR. DREW: His dedication to the cause. He was truly dedicated.
No man is more dedicated to the Civil Rights Movement than Fred
Shuttlesworth. His dedication! Regardless of what it took!
14
ANDREW MANIS: And that impressed middle class Blacks in
Birmingham?
MR. DREW: I think so. I think so.
ANDREW MANIS: Even more than his rough edges might have led them
to minimize?
MR. DREW: Right. That is correct.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I believe I have asked you all the questions
I need to ask you. I have taken as much time as I need to. Is
there anything else that you think is significant?
MR. DREW: I firmly felt that when the history of the Civil
Rights Movement is made, certainly Fred Shuttlesworth should be
an important name because of his dedication, his influence,
regardless of his faults, regardless of his un smooth -- He
wasn 1 t an educated man. But his dedication, to me, would stand
out beyond anything else I know. And I want to end it at that.
ANDREW MANIS: Thank you very much for your time.
15

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

This i s an interview with John J . Drew conducted by Andrew Manis
on December 29 , 1988.
ANDREW MANIS: Mr. Drew, could you begin by givi ng me your
personal background . How long have you lived in Bi rmingham?
MR. DREW: I was president of the Alexander and Company General
Insurance Agency . We speciali ze in fire and casualty automobile
insurance. We have all classes of coverage t hroughout the State
of Al abama . I am a graduate of Morehouse College. I am 80 years
of age. My son now is carrying on the work in our office .
Marti n Luther King, I called him "Mike" because he was a very
close personal friend and a c l ose visitor to our home. So was
his fa ther. His fathe r and I were schoolmates at Morehouse and,
of course, that brought on a little closer friendship with him
with me by virtue of his father and by virtue of the fact, of
course, that I was concerned with our Civil Rights Movement here
in Birmingham. I served with qui t e a few committees in the Civil
Rights Movement . I was primari l y concerned with the time when we
had a lot of our friends in jail. And, of course , being i n
business, I knew a lot of the people who could help so far as
bond in these situations . I did quite a bit with proper notices
which we filed to get all of the doctors out of jail and all
that. Marti n , Mike , whom I me t here in our home any number of
times, i n fact he stopped here with us, my wife and I. I wish
s he was here because she was very close to the situation and , of
course , Martin, Fred and Wyatt Walker and a lot of others who
have come here. My wife used to like to cook and she would feed
1
them , Ra l ph Abernathy and the group . So that i s my brief
background.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you know Dr . King as a boy?
MR . DREW : No, no, I didn't .
ANDREW MANIS: When was your first .
MR . DREW: My first meeting with him was in Montgomery . If you
can recall, that was a t a time when they had quite a few station
wagons trying t o take the maids and people to work and the
insurance people cancelled out their insurance coverage. Marti n
called me , or someone told him about me I guess, Mr . Alexander
who was a close friend of mine, and I went to Montgomery t o meet
him . I was able to arrange liability coverage on the station
wagons whi ch kept being cancell ed out. That was my first meeting
with him and after that we were close friends .
ANDREW MANIS: Let me go back a little bit and ask you where you
were reared and what your background was growing up.
MR. DREW: I completed high school at Emerson High School in
Mobile. I left Mobile in 193 1, no 1927, and went to school at
Morehouse College in Atlanta.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you come from a particularl y well educated
family?
MR. DREW: No , none of my father -- my mother was a housewife and
my fat her was a railroad fireman and that was the -- well , you
can imagine, it was not an educated or cultural family background
or anythi ng like that.
ANDREW MANIS: What did it mean to go to Morehouse?
2
MR. DREW: Well, it meant a whole lot for me. Actually I had a
scholarship to go to Talladega [College]. At that time Morehouse
had a field scout. If I can recall, his name was B. J. Robinson,
who went to various high schools and tried to recruit deserving
young men to come to Morehouse offering scholarships. At that
time I was somewhat of an athlete too. I could run and I played
football at school. He persuaded me to go to Morehouse. And
another thing what attracted me too, was that most of my friends
went to Talladega. Somehow I wanted to get into a new
environment and Atlanta afforded a new environment. I wanted to
try that. My first year was -- I enjoyed it very much.
ANDREW MANIS: What about the religious background of your
family?
MR. DREW: My whole family was Methodist, AME Methodist,
particularly my mother. My father was a nonchurch-going man.
But my mother was a Methodist and, of course, I was reared and
came up in the Methodist church. I am still a member.
ANDREW MANIS: Have you always been relatively active in the AME
church?
MR. DREW: No. I have not always been -- let me see, I was
active for a great numbers, serving on the board, the trustee
board and later on I felt that I couldn't continue with the
meetings. I was always active as a member but I have not in
recent years been active in participating with the boards. I
would offer my business background. When it came to building a
new church, my name was on the note and all that.
3
ANDREW MANIS: How did you first come to be invol ved in Civil
Rights?
MR. DREW: Well , ah ...
ANDREW MANIS : You mentioned going to Montgomery druing the
Boycott , was that the firs t ?
MR . DREW: Well , let me say this. I was concerned prior t o thi s
time because of my involvement in appeal very few Bl acks are
i n the general insurance f i eld. The reason for it is get ting
companies to g i ve you l i cense to p l ace their business , compani es
like U.S . F. & G. , Aetna Casualt y and al l that. So this concerned
me a lot . I would make sever a l t r ips to New York every year ,
going to the home offices of these companies , taking a portfolio ,
and telling them how much business I could give them and I would
go to local people , local agents because they might be able to
see this. That gave me the feeling that I wanted to do something
about it. That got me started and i t was purely economics for me
at the time and of course you got into a lot of what the industry
was doing to us . The fact that t hey would accept us as Negro
risks was another t hing and a lot of companies didn ' t want to
issue a l iability poli cy , automobile policy , and they were saying
to me first of all that "John , suppose , if he sued , we cannot get
justice in the courts. " And they were reluctant to issue even on
the terms of the policy, so I began to see that we had to prove
that the Negroes were good risks, too . And I think it he l ped a
lot because local insurance lawyers have gone into court and won
many cases .
4
ANDREW MANIS: When did you first become acquainted with Fred
Shuttlesworth?
MR . DREW: That I cannot tell you. I cannot remember the date or
the time. I thought about that the other day when you called me.
I cannot remember . He pastored here and I knew him. He has been
to my home, but as to the date I can't remember. I can't even
remember the year.
ANDREW MANIS : Well he came to Birmingham at least to pastor in
March of 1953 , and the found i ng of the Alabama Christian Movement
was in June 1956.
MR. DREW: Well now , that would be the time I think that we
became acquainted . That woul d be a good time.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recal l what your i mpressions of him were?
First impressions?
MR. DREW: I hope you will put this in the right way , because I
would never want him to think that I look down on him. Fred , to
me, was the most fearless leader of the whole Civil Rights
Movement . To me he stands out over C. T. Vivi an or anybody else
so far as being fearless . He would go to the front of the fight.
The only thing that used to sort of annoy me a little bit was his
quest for the limelight. I mean I remember when his church was
bombed. I think Dr . King was here and we cal l ed trying to find
out how he was. He said , "Doctor , talk to me, did you see me on
television?" It was that type of thing. That doesn ' t say
anything really from the man. But he wanted to be in the
limelight. He didn' t want to be left out, and I sort of thought
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that wasn't too important.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you, did you have many opportunities to
observe Shuttlesworth in action, in various contexts?
MR. DREW: He was straightforward in his talks. I think he could
move people into action. I think also he talked straight but he
was, to me, a man that was not controllable when you think of him
working with the group. You know, if he had his mind set to do
something, he was going to do that and even Dr. King could not
control. Held say, "I'm going to take this action. II It so
happened it was all for the good.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me ask you your general recollection to these
events and maybe how you responded to them personally, what you
felt at the time of these events? Perhaps nothing, but perhaps
you had some recollection of those, for example, you mentioned
the bombing a moment ago and this telephone conversation. Do you
have any other recollections about that particular event that
stand out?
MR. DREW: No, not any that I could recall that stand out. Some
small incidents or, but they are too small to really recognize.
Some were annoying.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I am sure they would be interesting.
MR. DREW: For instance, we have a maid that works two or three
days a week. She has been with us twenty-five or thirty years.
Fred was stopping with us that night for some reason. He liked a
lot of lemonade. He kept calling "give me some lemonade." She
got annoyed. What kind of man is this, sit back there and just
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kept calling -- these are littl e incidents that I don't think
they are important but he liked his attention . He liked
attention and of course he was not a Martin Luther King. He was
not a Ralph Abernathy but he was a good member of the . .
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember your impressions when the story
came wide l y known in Bi rmingham about his attempts t o get his
children registered in Phil lips High School and the beating he
experienced there?
MR. DREW: No, I don 't remember any of the incidents. I know it
happened but I don ' t remember anything particul ar about that?
ANDREW MANIS : What about the freedom rides in 196 1?
MR. DREW: One thing Fred spoke out vocal l y about it , and
anywhere he could . That's as far as I know. I can 't remember
h i s . . •
ANDREW MANIS: When, and unde r what circumstances , did you learn
that the Alabama Christian Movement and the Southern Christian
Leadership Conference were going to collaborate on a direct
action campaign?
MR . DREW: I can't recall . Do you mean the date and time?
ANDREW MANIS: Not necessarily the date but how you learned of
it?
MR. DREW: Well , the two groups, Alabama Christian Movement ,
what ' s the o t her group?
ANDREW MANIS: Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
MR. DREW: The Southern Christian Leadership Conference was a
nati onal group and the other one was a local group . I was
7
concerned with the local situation and of course , being l ocal, we
felt the need of help from the national organization. That's
when I learned about that .
ANDREW MANIS: In September of 1962, there were some negotiations
between some Blacks in Birmingham and the City Commission
regarding segregation signs and largely that had to do with the
fact that the Southern Christian Leadership Conference was going
to have its convention here in Birmingham in September of 1962.
The power structure in Birmingham was afraid that as a result of
t hat convention there mi ght be massive demonstrations and in
order to stave off those demonstrations , the merchants took the
signs out of the stores but l ater Bull Connor put pressure on
t hose me r chants and they came back .
MR. DREW: Well, okay , I remember that very very well . Even
prior to that a group of us , and we had some whites concerned
with that, David Vann was one. We met with what we t hought to be
the power in Birmingham, the Chamber of Commerce , so far as
segregation at lunch counters , toilets that Negroes could go to
in downtown stores, employment of Bl acks in stores . We met with
these people, and met with these people on any number of
occasions. Met some time with Sid Smyer , who was quite a guy.
And I am trying to think of some of the other whites who were
t here, James Head was there , trying to take action to do
something that was right for the good of the city and as I
recall, [Art} Haynes was the interim mayor of the c ity , who was a
terrible man. I think we tried to meet with him on a Sunday to
8
get permission to ask for funds and meet with people in the
churches. I don1t know. We couldn1t get to him. We didn1t want
to do anything to break the law. That is what I know about that
situation.
ANDREW MANIS: What is your most vivid recollections of the
actual demonstrations themselves?
MR. DREW: I guess I thought like everybody else, first of all,
the Birmingham Fire Department turning their hoses on the people,
that's the picture that remains in my mind forever and naturally,
of course, the crime against the nation as a whole was the
bombing of the church.
ANDREW MANIS: Did Dr. King stay with you regularly during that
time?
MR. DREW: Yes, yes, he did, most of the time, but on two or
three occasions he stopped at the A. G. Gaston Motel.
ANDREW MANIS: As those demonstrations proceeded and grew and
finally the power structure began to negotiate and meet with
different Blacks and the Senior Citizens Committee was a group of
whites, of course, but some Blacks met with the senior citizens
committee, did you not participate in some of those negotiations?
MR. DREW: Yes, yes, I think I did in most of them. Reverend
Ware, I think, we had an Episcopal priest who was very much
concerned and I am thinking about the Blacks -- the gist of this
meeting was, it1s been some time ago, I can1t recall, the gist of
the meeting was to have patience wait and try to keep as much
calm among the people as we could.
9
ANDREW MANIS: Early in May of the first demonstrations President
Kennedy or Attorney General Kennedy sent one of his lieutenants,
Burke Marshall.
MR. DREW: Yes sir!
ANDREW MANIS: To more or less arbitrate . . • .
MR. DREW: Right!
ANDREW MANIS: And you were part of that group of Blacks who met
as negotiators. Shuttlesworth was also part of that discussion,
was he not?
MR. DREW: That's right!
ANDREW MANIS: What can you recall about Shuttlesworth's input in
those meetings?
MR. DREW: We l l, Burke Marshall came here. He came to this very
house. At this time this house wasn't here, it was on the
freeway but this same spot. Came here. Through the al l ey way,
he was afraid to come because things were very hot. As I recall,
Fred was not with us in that particular meeting. I was trying to
think who was at my house at the time. Incidently, we talked to
Kennedy right from this house . My message was , during that time
things were very explosive -- to Mr. Marshall -- Burke Marshall
-- we needed help, Federal help. That was the message I gave.
Right here. We were sitting here with some others were here too,
but I don 't recall Fred being here. He may have but I don't
recall.
ANDREW MANIS: There would have been several meetings I would
suspect.
10
MR. DREW: Yeah, but that was the only one that we met with him.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay. What about any meetings of that same
negotiating group before Marshall came to town? Can you recall
any meetings in which Shuttlesworth had any significant input
into those discussions?
MR. DREW: He certainly did, but I can't recall. He had a lot of
input, but I simply cannot pinpoint the time or event.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recall in general the atmosphere of the
meetings and generally how it felt to be in those meetings?
MR. DREW: Well, as I recall they were confrontacious. They
were not all comfortable. I didn't feel were getting to the
other party, other side. In fact, we felt a constant fear of
tomorrow's happening and nonacceptance of what they were trying
to do together.
ANDREW MANIS: I've read that in one of those first meetings,
negotiating sessions, one of the white participants began with a
very blunt question of "NoW what is it you niggers want?" Do you
remember who that was?
MR. DREW: Yeah, Sid Smyer. Big banker here. As we met, he
finally came around but he was a tough man. Sid Smyer.
ANDREW MANIS: What did it take to get him to come around?
MR. DREW: I think Sid did not want to see a race riot. First of
all he became violently ill and I think the pressure on him was
great from hearing people like James Head, saying "Sid, the
writing is on the wall here. We've got to change our ways." I
would guess so.
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ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any particular times at those
negotiations that you were annoyed at Shuttlesworth or is he just
the kind of person who, every time you were around him, you found
yourself annoyed?
MR. DREW: That is a difficult question for me to answer. I
rather think that there were certainly some situations but to
give you a pinpoint answer, I don't know. One of the things that
was just obvious for me with Fred, of course, was the limelight
of the situation -- God knows, he deserved it, but he wanted to
be sure that you recognized Fred Shuttlesworth. I think that's
primarily it. It didn't take away from the greatness of the man.
I'll answer it that way.
ANDREW MANIS: When the negotiations reached some agreement,
Shuttlesworth was in the hospital and there was some decision to
call off the demonstrations and as a number of writers have
written and others have talked about, the negotiations almost
came unraveled, or however you want to say it, because of
Shuttlesworth's disagreement with the terms and then, of course,
there is what is described as a rather confrontive meeting that
occurred here in which Shuttlesworth -- Fred had words with Dr.
King.
MR. DREW: Yeah, well, I think that came about -- Dr. King wanted
to involve most people, particularly other ministers. Fred
didn't get along well with other ministers. This was as far as I
recall. When they didn't come around he would raise hell if he
couldn't get -- for instance, if he wanted to have a meeting at
12
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any particular times at those
negotiations that you were annoyed at Shuttlesworth or is he just
the kind of person who , every time you were around him, you found
yourself annoyed?
MR. DREW: That is a difficult question for me to answer. I
rather think that there were certainly some situations but to
give you a pinpoint answer, I don ' t know. One of the things that
was just obvious for me with Fred, of course , was the limelight
of the s ituation -- God knows , he deserved it, but he wanted to
be sure that you recognized Fred Shuttlesworth. I think that's
primarily it. It didn't take away from the greatness of the man.
I 'll answer it that way.
ANDREW MANIS: When the negotiations reached some agreement ,
Shuttlesworth was in the hospital and there was some decision to
call off the demonstrations and as a number of writers have
written and others have tal ked about, the negotiations almost
came unraveled, or however you want to say it, because of
Shuttleswort h ' s disagreement with the terms and then , of course,
there is what is described as a rather confrontive meeting that
occurred here in which Shuttlesworth -- Fred had words with Dr .
King.
MR. DREW: Yeah, well , I think that came about -- Dr . King wanted
to i nvolve most people , particularly other ministers. Fred
didn't get along well with other ministers. This was as far as I
recall. When they didn't come around he would raise hell if he
couldn 't get -- for instance, if he wanted to have a meeting at
12
Bethel Baptist Church and this preacher would be scared and say
"no" he thought that was awful. And he had a point. So, that
was I think the main thing. He didn't get the cooperation of
other ministers. Neither did Martin Luther King. Neither did
Dr. King until later, until they found out his Movement was so
very, very important. You'd be surprised at how many Black
churches would not let us meet there.
ANDREW MANIS: So what is your recollection of that occasion?
MR. DREW: I can't recall. I must tell you I can't recall the
occasion. I know it happened but I cannot tell you. I may
remember it later but at this point I simply cannot remember.
ANDREW MANIS: Was there a time when Dr. King may have talked to
you, and made an off-hand remark about having difficult relations
with Shuttlesworth?
MR. DREW: Yeah. He said on several occasions -- Dr. King had
several big people like Hosea Williams who was paid by his church
to turn to the Movement. There was no control over that man. He
was just there. Where Dr. King had a plan of action, some of the
ministers didn't agree and that brought on a little
confrontation. He would say "Now, what the little brother wanna
do?" but he was very calm with it and very patient. That's all
I can say about that.
ANDREW MANIS: What would you say was the general feeling in the
Black community about Fred Shuttlesworth?
MR. DREW: I think he was well-liked. Well loved. I think he
was well liked. He was fearless and some people felt like he was
13
crazy, because as I said before, he would be in front of the
firing line. There was some feeling, of course, that he was not
fully qualified to take a leadership Movement. But that is true
with any leader I would think.
ANDREW MANIS: How important was he -- I guess a different way to
ask it would be where does he fit in terms of importance among
the influential people?
MR. DREW: Well , I think he could move people. He could move
people. He could move persons -- you know, Black people have a
Middle Class like everybody e l se -- middle class, doctors and a
lot of the upper class Blacks, they were well heeled financially
and were not particularly concerned about the Movement but
Shuttlesworth was very important in moving those people, moving
them into action. Even with their money or what not.
ANDREW MANIS: That is interesting to hear you say that but I
have seen some analyses that suggest that the Black middle class
tended not to be significantly followers of Shuttlesworth.
MR. DREW: I disagree with that. They may not have admitted it,
but I think he moved a lot into action that would not have been
involved if it had not been for his persistence and his preaching
and his begging them to become involved.
ANDREW MANIS: What do you think was the source of his ability to
move people?
MR. DREW: His dedication to the cause. He was truly dedicated.
No man is more dedicated to the Civil Rights Movement than Fred
Shuttlesworth. His dedication! Regardless of what it took!
14
ANDREW MANIS: And that impressed middle class Blacks in
Birmingham?
MR. DREW: I think so. I think so.
ANDREW MANIS: Even more than his rough edges might have led them
to minimize?
MR. DREW: Right. That is correct.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I believe I have asked you all the questions
I need to ask you. I have taken as much time as I need to. Is
there anything else that you think is significant?
MR. DREW: I firmly felt that when the history of the Civil
Rights Movement is made, certainly Fred Shuttlesworth should be
an important name because of his dedication, his influence,
regardless of his faults, regardless of his un smooth -- He
wasn 1 t an educated man. But his dedication, to me, would stand
out beyond anything else I know. And I want to end it at that.
ANDREW MANIS: Thank you very much for your time.
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