Why does anyone take Elon Musk seriously?

Tesla fanbois – and Musk himself – will tell you all about the virtues of his electric cars. They are sleek and speedy. This is true. But they are also expensive (the least expensive model, the pending Model X, will reportedly start around $35k, about the same price as a luxury sedan like the Lexus ES350) and come standard with a number of significant functional deficits such as a best-case range about half that of most conventional cars and recharge times at least 4-5 times as long as it takes to refuel a conventional car.

That’s if you can find a Tesla “supercharger” station.

If not, then the recharge time becomes hours rather than half an hour.

But the real problem with Tesla cars is that no one actually buys them.

Well, not directly.

Their manufacture is heavily subsidized – and their sale is heavily subsidized

Either way, the taxpayer (rather than the “buyer”) is the one who gets the bill.

by Anonymous

reply 116

09/27/2016

On the manufacturing end, Tesla got $1.3 billion in special crony-capitalist “incentives” from the state of Nevada to build its battery factory there. This includes an exemption from having to pay any property taxes (unlike you and I) for the next 20 years. Another inducement was $195 million in transferable tax credits – which Tesla could sell for cash.

California provides similar inducements – including $15 million from the state of California to “create jobs” in the state.

Tesla does not make money by selling cars, either.

It makes money by selling “carbon credits” to real car companies that make functionally and economically viable vehicles that can and do sell on the merits – but which are not “zero emissions” vehicles, as the electric Tesla is claimed to be (but isn’t, actually, unless you don’t count the emissions produced by the utility plants that provide the electricity they run on, or the emissions produced mining the materials necessary to make the hundreds of pounds of batteries needed by each car).

Laws in nine states (including California) require each automaker selling cars in the state to sell a certain number of “zero emissions” vehicles, else be fined. Since only electric cars qualify under the law as “zero emissions” vehicles – and the majority of cars made by the real car companies are not electric cars – they end up having to “purchase” (air quotes for the same reason that you are a “customer” of the IRS’s) these “carbon credits” from Tesla, subsidizing Tesla’s operations and adding to the expense of manufacturing their own functionally and economically viable cars.

by Anonymous

reply 1

05/07/2016

has “earned” this way is in the neighborhood of $517 million.

Tesla is a newfangled taken on the welfare queen. Or more accurately, the EBT card – which is designed to look like a credit card. To have the appearance of a legitimate transaction … as opposed to a welfare payment.

Underneath the glitz and showmanship, that’s what all of Musk’s “businesses” are about. They all depend entirely on government – that is, on taxpayer “help” – in order to survive.

Without that “help,” none of Musk’s Tesla’s could survive.

It is estimated that Tesla’s various ventures – including his new SolarCity solar panel operation and SpaceX – have cost taxpayers at least $4.9 billion, with Tesla accounting for about half of that dole.

And he still loses money.

Musk fanbois will counter by pointing out that other businesses – including the car business – also get “help” from the government (that is, from taxpayers) which is perfectly true. But that’s not much of a defense – much less a refutation of the charge that Musk is a crony capitalist.

Which is all he is.Tesla 5

The real difference between Musk’s operations and those of say General Motors is that General Motors’s products are fundamentally viable while Tesla’s are not. GM is happy to accept government “help” when offered but it is not necessary for taxpayers to bankroll the production of Corvettes – nor provide thousands of dollars in cash incentives to each prospective buyer in order to “stimulate” sales.

The straight dope is that Tesla could not build a single car without the government’s help. Take away that “help” and the actual cost would be so prohibitive that virtually no one except perhaps fellow billionaires like Musk with money to burn on toys would buy a Tesla.

As it is – even with massive subsidies at the manufacturing level and then again at the retail level – each Tesla still “sells” at a loss of several thousand dollars per car … adding up to almost $400 million so far this year (the company just announced this; see here).

The typical Tesla “buyer,” meanwhile, has an annual income in excess of $250,000.

Why are taxpayers – the majority of them not earning $250k annually – being taxed to support the “purchase” of electric exotic cars by extremely affluent people?

Why should taxpayers be made to subsidize any of Musk’s “businesses”?crony pic

He’s a billionaire.

And – we’re constantly told – a really smart guy.

Surely he could fund (or find) the private capital necessary to fund his various projects. The fact that he could not find private – that is, willing – investors but instead has to rely on the coercive power of the government to fund his projects speaks volumes about the fundamental worth of his projects.

He “succeeds” only because of his ability to game the system, not by offering products that people are willing to pay for (using their own money, that is).

The heroic real-life Tony Stark image notwithstanding, Musk is an operator – not a creator of value.

He has more in common with the vulture capitalist oligarchs of the former Soviet Union than with the namesake of his electric car company.

by Anonymous

reply 2

05/07/2016

Fuck off, clueless asshole.

by Anonymous

reply 3

05/07/2016

Dude, I want one!

by Anonymous

reply 4

05/07/2016

R3

Musk gets billions in government subsidies.

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups.

"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."

by Anonymous

reply 5

05/07/2016

R4-

I want one too. I sold my position in line on Model S after I started looking at the real cost vs limitations.

They are gorgeous, but spending even $35k on a car that has an effective range of 120-30 miles without a 3-5 hour recharge period is a scam.

by Anonymous

reply 6

05/07/2016

The subsidies for Telsa cars amount to 40-70% of the price- no one would buy them at the market price.

by Anonymous

reply 7

05/09/2016

Solar City (Musk's other "green" taxpayer funded company) dropped 25% after another round of losses and rapidly declining installations. The tax credit expired.

by Anonymous

reply 8

05/10/2016

The "HYPE" in HyperLoop is underwhelming.

by Anonymous

reply 9

05/11/2016

I'll get a Tesla about the time Elon dreams up a $5,000, 25mph-limited, self-driving, neighborhood electric vehicle.

by Anonymous

reply 10

05/11/2016

He, like politicians, sell feel good dreams. Yes, yes, how noble to dream that one day we will all be off fossil fuels!

Reality: Not going to happen.

by Anonymous

reply 11

05/11/2016

R11

And he takes billions in tax money to fund his toys and fantasy projects. If poor people can't eat, it's not his problem- the taxes they pay make him RICH!!!

by Anonymous

reply 12

05/11/2016

Space X is just all of NASA's work, handed to him for free -- nothing he's done is anything more than 60s technology.

El✡n is a very lucky fellow.

by Anonymous

reply 13

05/11/2016

R13

F&F-

Who cares if Musk is Jewish or Hindu or Catholic.

by Anonymous

reply 14

05/11/2016

He has good ideas, honestly, but when you really put the lens to them there's a huuuuuuge gap between them and reality.

And it takes half a bloody hour to charge a Tesla at a super station. I ain't waiting for that on a road trip. There's only so many magazines to read.

by Anonymous

reply 15

05/11/2016

R15

On a full charge, under ideal conditions, you could drive 150 miles before turning around to head home.

In hot or cold weather, 100 miles.

Tesla is a toy for rich people, subsidized by poor people.

by Anonymous

reply 16

05/11/2016

[quote]Space X is just all of NASA's work, handed to him for free -- nothing he's done is anything more than 60s technology.

NASA never made it to the moon. The Apollo Project was faked for PR purposes. They won't break it to us until the last Apollo astronaut is dead.

by Anonymous

reply 17

05/11/2016

We're talking about El✡n's Space X launch vehicles and the much touted recovery systems. Whether or not we went to the moon isn't part of that because El✡n's work is all in low earth orbit.

He glommed on ancient technology -- there is nothing "revolutionary" about the guy, except his connections. His staff is all laid off American aerospace workers being paid H1-B wages.

by Anonymous

reply 18

05/12/2016

[quote]Politically, Musk has described himself as "half Democrat, half Republican". In his own words: "I'm somewhere in the middle, socially liberal and fiscally conservative."

How does a fiscal conservative rationalize that he is taking billions in subsidies? He thinks he is John Galt but in reality he is probably the biggest recipient of welfare money in the USA.

by Anonymous

reply 19

05/12/2016

In the mid 80's when cell phones first came out, they cost 3,000 and up, had to be hard-wired to your vehicle and cost .55-.75 per minute to use. The next wave became portable, but still had to be plugged into a cigarette lighter in a vehicle to operate. Then they became completely portable, but were the size of a carton of cigarettes and only lasted about 30 min between charges. It was at least a decade before they became compact but still larger than they are today with limited capabilities. Technology advances with time. In another decade or two, the tech for electric vehicles could advance to the point where you just go to a station and swap out batteries the way you do a propane tank for a grill.

by Anonymous

reply 20

05/12/2016

R20

The government didn't make cell phones ubiquitous- the free market did.

by Anonymous

reply 21

05/13/2016

That doesn't change his analysis one whit, Idiot Libertarian Troll. Did it go over your head? Should we use smaller words?

by Anonymous

reply 22

05/13/2016

Is Elon Musk his stage name? It sounds very hollywood.

by Anonymous

reply 23

05/13/2016

What "analysis"? R22

by Anonymous

reply 24

05/14/2016

I repeat: Did it go over your head? Should we use smaller words? It's right there, moron. When you learn to read, feel free to come back and respond.

by Anonymous

reply 25

05/14/2016

R25

Words together string nothing mean without stupid.

Are you saying Musk is a hero for wasting billions in taxes on bullshit? No return, just more taxes to pay for toys for the elite.

Typical socialist.

by Anonymous

reply 26

05/17/2016

[quote]Words together string nothing mean without stupid.

You should know, cupcake.

[quote]Are you saying Musk is a hero for wasting billions in taxes on bullshit? No return, just more taxes to pay for toys for the elite.

If I had meant to say something like that, I'd have probably said something remotely resembling that. I didn't, so I didn't. Tell me, why do you always lie about what other people say?

by Anonymous

reply 27

05/19/2016

R27

Great rebuttal! All those facts! Awesome!

by Anonymous

reply 28

05/19/2016

[quote]Great rebuttal! All those facts! Awesome!

LOL.... Just using your own tactics, cupcake. Funny how you don't like it when someone else does it.

Thank you for confirming that you lied about what I posted, by the way.

by Anonymous

reply 29

05/20/2016

Industry experts said Tesla's new goals were extraordinary and raised doubts it could meet them. The handful of North American auto plants capable of building 500,000 vehicles a year are all run by automakers with decades of experience, they said.

Tesla continues to have delivery delays for its Model X SUV. Its Model S also missed delivery targets when launched.

SPEEDING UP ASSEMBLY

One complication is that Tesla has not finalized the Model 3 design and specifications, said automaking consultants and supply executives who asked not to be identified because Tesla prohibits them from disclosing contract details.

Musk has said the Model 3 design and engineering would be complete in June, 13 months ahead of the planned production startup.

Under ideal conditions, automakers have launched new assembly lines in 18 months, but they typically take two to three years after the first tooling and supply contracts are signed, several manufacturing consultants said.

---

More proof that Tesla is just a fantasy unicorn.

by Anonymous

reply 30

05/20/2016

Tesla, the little American car company every other automaker loves to hate, recently lent a Model X to Fortune for a review. The car was not what one might expect of a $150,000 luxury car, unless something like an old Jaguar has been in your ownership history.

Fortune adored the Model X for its speed, its infotainment system, and its semi-autonomous mode. Fortune was less enamored with the seat controls that conspired to squish a baby.

“The theory is,” veteran auto tester Sue Callaway says as she places an occupied baby seat in the middle row, “the seats move together so the baby doesn’t get squished.”

“Oh! Nope,” she says, watching the baby seat immediately get pressed up against the back of the fronts. “Baby’s getting squished. That’s not good. It’s not supposed to hit the back of the driver’s seat.”

Indeed it is not.

Quality issues extended past baby-squishing, with weatherstripping peeling off one of the falcon doors that Tesla itself admitted were more ambitious than advisable. The carpet, as well, was coming off in places. If this was an isolated issue with the Model X, one might figure that this was just a rare preproduction glitch or two. But the Model X has repeatedly been in the news for quality issues. There have been complaints about the car’s windshield, with its doors, its rear seat latches, and assorted other fit and finish problems.

Again, these issues once were the norm (decades ago) for ultra-luxury cars as expensive and as exclusive as the top-of-the-line Model X and the Model S. But this doesn’t bode well for people buying low-cost Teslas, or for the people who are expecting a mass produced product from the upcoming Model 3.

Jalopnik has reached out to Tesla for comment but has not yet heard back.

by Anonymous

reply 31

05/20/2016

Tesla Motors (TSLA) shares got slammed several weeks ago after analysts doubted the electric carmaker’s bullish production guidance. Now that the stock has tried to recover, bears want to take the driver’s seat again.

Devonshire Research Group is shorting the stock and on Tuesday issued a report that says Tesla “has the potential to enter a death spiral” if it fails to deliver on its “bold claims on return and/or product value.”

The investment firm also said Tesla “has engaged in aggressive accounting that calls to mind the experiences of Enron and WorldCom.”

A Tesla spokeswoman directed IBD to the company’s latest shareholder letter, which explained that Tesla’s non-GAAP financial measures recognize revenue and related costs when customers take delivery of their cars. Other carmakers book revenue when vehicles are sold into dealership inventory rather than to end customers, it noted.

by Anonymous

reply 32

05/24/2016

Tesla is valued at $30B!!!.

That's half of Ford and GM, who have produced hundreds of millions of cars.

Ridiculous. Without massive government incentives and Federal Reserve monetary manipulation the company would be worth a few hundred million, not $30B.

by Anonymous

reply 33

05/24/2016

Tesla is in trouble. The stock is tanking due to the bullshit with Solar City and this crash.

by Anonymous

reply 34

07/01/2016

When cars first came out, do you think there were already chains of gas stations and internet highway networks in place all across the US? The first guys who drove cars toodled around their towns at 10 mph and got laughed at by the horse and buggy crowd.

I really want to see that hyperloop become a reality. It could change the face of transportation, again.

[quote]And it takes half a bloody hour to charge a Tesla at a super station. I ain't waiting for that on a road trip. There's only so many magazines to read.

Look at the upside-- maybe this will create an upsurge in rest stop gloryholes!

by Anonymous

reply 38

07/04/2016

Does Elon emit any musk?

by Anonymous

reply 39

07/04/2016

When this unicorn is slaughtered I will squeal with glee.

by Anonymous

reply 40

07/04/2016

Expensive is $35K? Come now. An Escalade is $85K easy.

by Anonymous

reply 41

07/04/2016

R41

The Tesla is very expensive when compared to regular cars at the same price point. Without subsidies they are even less attractive.

Plus, the charade that they will be able to deliver 500,000 vehicle in 2017 is so laughable that the SEC should investigate. They don't have ANY supply chain resources to do that.

by Anonymous

reply 42

07/04/2016

Musk is the latest in a long line of Wall Street dream merchants. He may mean well, but he over-promises and under-delivers.

And, Musk doesn't seem to recognize conflicts of interest. How do you think the Tesla shareholders feel about Musk's recent decision to acquire Solar City, a severely troubled solar-panel manufacturer in which Musk is a major shareholder? (I believe Musk's cousin is the CEO of Solar City -- isn't that a conflict?.) Most analysts have condemned the acquisition as making no business sense at all for Tesla. On the other hand, the acquisition protects Musk from losing his entire investment in Solar City.

by Anonymous

reply 43

07/04/2016

R43

Don't forget the massive tax breaks and government subsidies for SCTY.

Musk is the quintessential crony capitalist, using government money to fund uneconomical projects.

by Anonymous

reply 44

07/04/2016

Videos of people self driving.

by Anonymous

reply 45

07/07/2016

We get it, Idiot Libertarian Troll [tm]. You don't like Elon Musk. Great. We're all happy for you. But is that any reason to keep bumping a thread that nobody gives a shit about?

by Anonymous

reply 46

07/07/2016

The SEC is now investigating TSLA for not reporting "autopilot" failures.

Musk has wasted billions of tax dollars but socialists still love him.

Sick.

by Anonymous

reply 47

07/11/2016

Troll please, the oil and gas companies get far more money from the government then TSLA. If they actually had to pay for the billions of dollars we give them every year for "research" gas would be like $9 a liter like it is in the rest of the modern world. Factor that into the price of owning a gas powered engine and suddenly TSLA makes economic sense.

by Anonymous

reply 48

07/11/2016

R48

Link?

Oil and gas and coal companies spend billions complying with arbitrary government regulations, while Musk and his ilk benefit from taxes.

You're insane.

by Anonymous

reply 49

07/11/2016

R48

Taxes on gas are 3x higher in the EU- taxes on a gallon of gas are 72% of the cost.

The poorest people are hurt the worst by these exorbitant taxes, but your socialist dogma makes you too stupid to understand simple facts.

by Anonymous

reply 50

07/11/2016

The Oil Industry Benefits From $5.3 Trillion in Subsidies Annually. Because all these American companies have moved their headwaters off shore to other countries, you have to look at this from a global perspective to get an accurate number.

by Anonymous

reply 51

07/11/2016

Didn't the space X crash repeatedly?

by Anonymous

reply 52

07/11/2016

r52 -- what is really bad about SpaceX is all the technology he uses is long proven -- all retread and lifted and Jewish.

by Anonymous

reply 53

07/12/2016

[quote] Taxes on gas are 3x higher in the EU- taxes on a gallon of gas are 72% of the cost.

LOL... Moron, that has zilch to do with R48's point, which is accurate. Taxes on gasoline have nothing to do with the billions of subsidies we currently pay to the oil companies. A 5-second web search would have shown that you're an idiot and that this statement, "Oil and gas and coal companies spend billions complying with arbitrary government regulations, while Musk and his ilk benefit from taxes," is hilariously stupid.

by Anonymous

reply 54

07/13/2016

This means that used Tesla values are dropping faster than the company had expected in its worst case scenario, and as a result it can no longer afford to fill the gap. With this program ending, demand for new vehicles is set to slump even more as concerns about resale prices emerge.

A Tesla spokesperson said the program was discontinued to "keep interest rates as low as possible and offer a compelling lease and loan program to customers."

What he really meant but would never say is that demand for Teslas, both new and used, is cratering, something which will promptly be reflected in prices of used Teslas as they suddenly hit the market now that the company is no longer backstopping all repurchases. And, we expect, once the public realizes what the true clearing price of these vehicles is, demand for new cars will slump even further in a feedback loop that ends with Tesla eventually running out of cash.

But not quite yet.

by Anonymous

reply 55

07/13/2016

Elon Musk is an obvious fraud. Something that all of his companies rely upon is continued gub’mint cheese. Without the largesse of the state, his entire empire would have already collapsed.

He made his initial success in an unrepeatable environment of the dotcom boom. Making web applications is ridiculously simple compared to any one of Elon’s new ambitions: automobiles, space travel, solar energy, and public transit.

Any single one of these would be a massive undertaking, requiring the full focus of any CEO. To take them on all at once reeks of foolish pride and mania.

There’s something innately childish about trying to be the king of cars, space, and trains all at once as well. It’s like he’s picking everything preteen boys might decorate their room with.

by Anonymous

reply 56

07/13/2016

If he is a fraud, then we need more like him. He as done things even NASA has not accomplished. Childhood dreams? The seeds of science are planted with a dream. Elon Musk has turned these into reality.

When was the last time YOU were able to land a rocket vertically in the middle of the ocean on a floating platform?

by Anonymous

reply 57

07/13/2016

His latest Hyperloop project reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Marge narrowly saves Springfield from being cheated out of all its money in a monorail-building scam. I can look at the balance sheets of Musk’s ventures now and know that most of his billions are like Batista’s. Today there is prideful, arrogant mockery of Apple, whose profit margins he can never attain. This kind of hubris will always be punished. Don’t find yourself getting punished with it. Many of Batista’s investors now count themselves as Musk’s. If you have any sense at all, dump your Tesla shares before it is too late.

— @rabite

by Anonymous

reply 58

07/13/2016

R57

Musk repurposed decades old technology for that, and the government paid for it.

by Anonymous

reply 59

07/13/2016

Who cares, he did what no one else could do. Suck it up and go home. You sound like a jealous bitch just fired from his job as sanitation engineer.

by Anonymous

reply 60

07/13/2016

R60

If you paid taxes you might understand.

by Anonymous

reply 61

07/13/2016

I pay plenty of taxes and could be happier with Space X and Tesla. What I am not happy with is Trillions of my tax dollars going to big oil companies that already are making record profits. If you want to go after corruption, go after that. You are penny wise and pound foolish.

by Anonymous

reply 62

07/13/2016

I saw my first Tesla on the street in Santa Barbara on Saturday. Very cool looking car, I have to hand it to him. It was even cooler when the owners came back, got in (even the doors were cool) and drove off - in whirring almost-silence.

In general, Elon Musk doesn't interest me. The only time I've paid any attention to him was when he was Colbert's first guest on his new tv gig but it's a very nice car.

by Anonymous

reply 63

07/13/2016

Tesla cars are beautiful. I walked into a show room I was passing by and I was so taken with the design and coolness of even the handle of the door I was blown away. So worth the money. Especially then new ones coming out that are around 35,000. Already a 2 year wait for them.

by Anonymous

reply 64

07/14/2016

Musk part of transhumanist movement look it up..the bigger picture

by Anonymous

reply 65

07/14/2016

Mercedes are beautiful, and far more practical.

Wonder what the two ongoing SEC investigations will find?

Musk is just Elizabeth Holmes with more arrogance, better government contacts and a substantial private financial cushion. One day his snake oil bullshit will be revealed and everyone else will be shocked.

by Anonymous

reply 66

07/18/2016

You just don't get it, ILT: nobody gives a fuck.

by Anonymous

reply 67

07/18/2016

Analysts response to Tesla Part Deux -

by Anonymous

reply 68

07/22/2016

And still nobody gives a fuck, Idiot Libertarian Troll [tm]. Sucks to be you.

Let me guess... the Idiot Libertarian Troll just resurrected another of his dead threads that nobody gives a shit about....

by Anonymous

reply 72

08/19/2016

R72

Your socialist bullshit has failed, repeatedly, everywhere and every time is has been implemented.

Facts are meaningless to people like you. Only total government power over individuals will allow you to implement your crazy bullshit.

by Anonymous

reply 73

08/19/2016

[quote]Your socialist bullshit has failed, repeatedly, everywhere and every time is has been implemented.

Meanwhile, out here in the real world, those countries who offer a basic safety net are doing just fine, thanks. And out here in the real world, every major industrialized nation has "socialist bullshit" in health care, and they all cover more people, pay less, control costs better, have outcomes that are just as good, and have systems that are just as popular, if not more so. And all of this is true of Medicare, as well. You never have been able to bring yourself to acknowledge this reality, even in your favorite health care system of Singapore, which also happens to be government-controlled.

[quote]Facts are meaningless to people like you.

Let me know when you plan to provide some. So far, you're a lot better at providing fantasies than facts. And you have an enviable track record here: you're always wrong in your predictions. Always.

[quote]Only total government power over individuals will allow you to implement your crazy bullshit.

I'll let you know if I ever come up with any "crazy bullshit." In the meantime, I'll settle for a basic safety net, thanks, one that has proven to work just fine.

by Anonymous

reply 74

08/19/2016

I am glad there is a visionary like Elon Musk who is DOING SOMETHING to advance mankind to a new way of achieving personal transportation.

Regardless of who or which nation owns oil reserves, there is a finite amount on the planet. Mankind's near total dependency on hydrocarbons is pathetic and a recipe for disaster at some point.

Musk is showing consumers that there is an alternative way to power our lives and I applaud him for it.

by Anonymous

reply 75

08/20/2016

He just doesn't have the evil billionaire vide that so many billionaires do. Of course still early days.

The Kochs, the unhinged and ugly faces if libertarianism, spend a lot of their fortune (through front groups like ALEC) screwing with laws intended to cripple renewables like Musk's Solar City. ILT's smears reflect their contempt for the man.

I guess it would be asking too much of the Kochs for them to actually stop harming the country, the political process, and the planet.

by Anonymous

reply 77

08/20/2016

The Koch's are not libertarian, not by any definition. They are crony capitalists who use government power to make themselves wealthy on the backs of the lower 99.9%.

The fact that the idiot at r77 points to them as libertarians exposes her utter ignorance of the concept.

by Anonymous

reply 78

08/20/2016

Well, except for the fact that one of them ran for Vice President as a Libertarian Party candidate but hey, why let a little reality get in the way of your fantasies?

by Anonymous

reply 79

08/20/2016

Elon Musk is a bad joke, a fraud!

by Anonymous

reply 80

08/22/2016

Who is the biggest sociopath in this picture?

by Anonymous

reply 81

08/22/2016

IMHO, that would be the crackpot, self-loathing, would-be-in-the-closet (except for Gawker) Peter Thiel, R81. But sociopath is probably too strong a word for Thiel.

On the left, you've got a delusional libertarian who would have private enterprise sell us all individual jet packs to use to get around, instead of our horrible socialist tax-supported public roads. DANGER AHEAD!

And the guy on the right who produces substantial good for mankind in the form of an awesome private space program, some of the best automobiles currently being made, and independent solar power generation or everyone. Plus, the HyperLoop shows promise as a future transportation option. Elon's a righteous dude, man.

by Anonymous

reply 82

08/22/2016

What do you bitches think of his hair? Was it a transplant? I think it's pretty good job

And he's resurrected this thread, that almost nobody gives a shit about, multiple times. That's why he's called the Idiot Libertarian Troll, emphasis on both the first and last words of that phrase.

by Anonymous

reply 86

08/22/2016

R85- the truth is not a smear.

--

During a January 19th panel discussion at the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), Tesla Motors general counsel Todd Maron said: “We make money from one thing: car sales and car sales alone.” In reality, electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer Tesla Motors loses more than $4,000 on every car it sells on a “full-cost” basis (keep in mind that some of Tesla’s costs are heavily subsidized). Tesla’s losses per vehicle are even greater using generally accepted accounting principles. CNBC and Reuters explained:

Tesla reports its finances in a different way from the Detroit automakers. Using the generally accepted accounting principles, or GAAP, used by GM or Ford, Tesla’s operating losses per vehicle have steadily widened to $14,758 from $3,794 in the second quarter of 2014.

Tesla, instead, largely survives on government handouts.

In 2015, Tesla delivered 50,580 cars worldwide, with 25,700 going to U.S. customers. This is a trivial percentage of both the worldwide and U.S. auto markets. A record 17.5 million passenger vehicles were bought in the United States in 2015. Yet only 0.67 percent—or 116,548 vehicles—were all-electrics or plug-in hybrids, 6,500 fewer than in 2014. EVs account for 0.16 percent of the 250 million U.S. passenger vehicles on the road. The market for electric cars is trivial, despite massive government support.

by Anonymous

reply 87

08/22/2016

Second major fact about Tesla's crony capitalism-

---

Instead of making money from car sales, Tesla survives by participating in many government subsidy programs. One lucrative program is California’s zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) credit program. Phil Kerpen explained how the program works:

ZEV credits are a mandate dreamed up by the bureaucrats at the California Air Resources Board (CARB), which requires [auto] manufacturers to build and dealers to sell an arbitrary number of “zero-emission” vehicles each year. . . . Tesla’s Model S generates four credits per unit sold. This means the company can sell $20,000 in ZEV credits to other [auto] manufacturers for each Model S sold—a cost borne by purchasers of other cars.

ZEV credits, pioneered in California, have spread to nine other states. Tesla has collected more than $517 million from competing automakers by selling ZEV credits to those who fail to sell enough zero-emissions cars to meet arbitrary mandates.

by Anonymous

reply 88

08/22/2016

Charles Lane of the Washington Post said: “Tesla owes its survival to subsidies from taxpayers, who are usually less well-heeled than its plutocratic customers.” The average household income of Tesla owners is $320,000, according to Strategic Visions, a consumer research company.

Tesla buyers have also raked in $38 million in California government rebates (they receive a $2,500 rebate for each Tesla bought) and $284 million in federal tax incentives (they receive a $7,500 federal tax credit for each purchased Tesla).

The Los Angeles Times calculated that Elon Musk’s three companies, Tesla Motors, SolarCity, and SpaceX, combined have received a staggering $4.9 billion in government support over the past decade. As Kerpen noted: “Every time a Tesla is sold . . . average Americans are on the hook for at least $30,000 in federal and state subsidies” that go to wealthy Tesla owners. This is crony capitalism at its worst.

Tesla is in the business of capturing government subsidies, not making cars that people actually buy. At the same FTC panel, Tesla’s Maron said: “It’s imperative [that gas powered cars] are replaced entirely by electric vehicles.” What’s the plan for achieving this? Buried in its 2013 annual report Tesla admitted: “Our growth depends in part on the availability and amounts of government subsidies and economic incentives.”

Hold onto your wallets everyone, Tesla wants to grow.

by Anonymous

reply 89

08/22/2016

Since you've now posted over 40 times, it's reasonable to ask you:

1. What's your damage?

2. Have you had a psych evaluation recently?

by Anonymous

reply 90

08/22/2016

R90

Why are you so enamored with Musk?

I just love pointing out the evil behind Musk.

Every week there is another scandal, another red flag that all is not well inside Tesla, but idiots like you ignore it. This was posted 3 months ago, FWIW, so when people reply to it I sometimes jump in.

Who appointed you as Hall Monitor, Muriel?

by Anonymous

reply 91

08/22/2016

[quote]I just love pointing out the evil behind Musk.

We know. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

[quote]so when people reply to it I sometimes jump in.

Oh, bullshit. You yourself have bumped this thread a dozen times at least, most recently last Friday.

by Anonymous

reply 92

08/22/2016

Some sort of intervention would be a kindness, at this point.

by Anonymous

reply 93

08/22/2016

Genuine question on my end here: Aren't carbon credit companies, or companies that sell carbon credits to others, largely subsidized by government, or is Musk the only one with this model?

Whether I agree with your argument or not, OP, thank you for posting this thread. I've had some great reading in the last hour, learning all about Musk and Tesla.

by Anonymous

reply 94

08/22/2016

I can't especially after way too much info about his romantic shenanigans

by Anonymous

reply 95

08/22/2016

His name sounds like a perfume.

by Anonymous

reply 96

08/22/2016

R94

Where does the money the government uses to subsidize Tesla come from?

All government subsidies are offset (theoretically, except by Keynes) by higher taxes on everyone. Every dollar spent by government is a dollar NOT spent in the private sector. You know, where people actually create value.

by Anonymous

reply 97

08/22/2016

OP do tell us why anyone should take YOU seriously? Really tell us. I mean really.

by Anonymous

reply 98

08/22/2016

[quote]Every dollar spent by government is a dollar NOT spent in the private sector. You know, where people actually create value.

It's an article of faith with you that spending by a government entity cannot possibly create value. That article of faith, is of course, wrong, and it's directly contradicted by multiple examples in the real world, e.g., spending on infrastructure, the Internet, the Interstate highway system, academic research, health research and so on.

by Anonymous

reply 99

08/22/2016

R94

When the great biography of Musk is published a few decades hence, I suspect it will be more "Bonfire of the Vanities" than "Man's Search for Meaning".

Without all these massive subsidies it wouldn't exist. Every dollar paid by the taxpayers for his folly, just so the ultra wealthy that can afford a Tesla can feel "Green", is food out of their mouths.

All 75,000 Tesla's sold have been to the wealthy, at around $130k per vehicle. But, without subsidies, the median price for each vehicle sold by Musk ($4.9B in tax dollars versus 75K sold is 65k per vehicle) or a real price without taxpayers of $185,000 car!

Musk has ZERO pipeline for actually delivering his mythical 500k cars in the next 30 months. No suppliers, no machinists, no body fabrication facilities- and no realistic goals for putting them in place.

This thread is for posterity. Musk and his coterie might fool the public for now, but without even more massive government subsidies the value of Tesla will eventually drop dramatically.

It may become the Green version of Pets.com

by Anonymous

reply 100

08/22/2016

R98

Have you read the thread?

Without massive taxpayer subsidies Tesla would be bankrupt. Period.

by Anonymous

reply 101

08/22/2016

r100 describes a very Jewish endeavor.

by Anonymous

reply 102

08/22/2016

F&F r102

by Anonymous

reply 103

08/22/2016

OP, it looks like many "Green" companies were playing at the same black jack table as Tesla.

by Anonymous

reply 104

08/22/2016

And here are some more, which I'm sure you're familiar with:

by Anonymous

reply 105

08/22/2016

R105

It's fun to look at the people that make money from these ventures. All of them are deeply connected to the political elite. They always have presidents and Prime Minister's and premiers on speed dial.

It's not capitalism, it is fascism with makeup, botox and a good tuck game.

by Anonymous

reply 106

08/22/2016

Seems now that Idiot Libertarian Troll has requested professional backup from the Koch Industries PR Dept. Owning about half of America's politicians (and smearing Musk) will never be enough for the evil brothers.

by Anonymous

reply 107

08/22/2016

You mean, r107, like a...conspiracy theory?

by Anonymous

reply 108

08/22/2016

The possibility that there is more than one libertarian on Datalounge is enough to give r107 the vapors.

Zir/Ze cannot believe that a hundred of years of socialist influenced "economic progressivism" has failed.

Any "liberal" that supports the Federal Reserve is just a foolish tool. All that government money went to the 0.1% and people like Krugman cheered. Fucking r3tards.

by Anonymous

reply 109

08/22/2016

At least he is using his money and influence to push science and humanity further. Unlike the average american billionaire who spends every waking hour making the lives of the 99.9% even harder = by lobbying to keep min wages low, reduce social and medical benefits and generally keep the slaves poor and under his boot.

by Anonymous

reply 110

08/22/2016

[quote]The possibility that there is more than one libertarian on Datalounge is enough to give [R107] the vapors.

Oh, there's a couple of you lurking around. Most libertarians won't join your threads, though; you're too much of an embarrassment.

[quote]Zir/Ze cannot believe that a hundred of years of socialist influenced "economic progressivism" has failed.

Kinda hard to "believe" that, when we have ample data to the contrary. Maybe you should join us here in the real world?

[quote]Any "liberal" that supports the Federal Reserve is just a foolish tool. All that government money went to the 0.1% and people like Krugman cheered. Fucking r3tards.

Uh-huh. Let us know when you've actually got some data to back up your silly rants.

by Anonymous

reply 111

08/23/2016

Musk as Crony Capitalofascist

But that was not enough money. Tesla then makes a bid outright to buy all of SolarCity at above market valuations using Tesla stock. This essentially ensures a payout to himself and his partners at SolarCity while eliminating the SpaceX debt. Now it all depends on the price of Tesla stock. And Tesla has been punished by the market since the announcement.

Finally there is the loaned stock by Elon Musk to SolarCity. If Tesla drops enough for amargin call, it is all over in our opinion. what we have not covered includes the valuation offerred to buy SolarCity. Public shareholders of Tesla should be incensed atthe price being paid for SolarCity. Meanwhile, much of SolarCity's stock is still in the hands of Musk and family members.

If Tesla stock drops enough, it could take out potentially all 3 companies. Essentialy Musk is at the center of an American Keiretsu.

Conclusion

The interdependent relationships between the 3 government subsidized companies Elon Musk owns or has a controlling stake in are an abuse ofgovernment largesse towards Green Energy. Taxpayer money is being used at market risk without market returns to prop up 3 unprofitable companies. While we do not debate the technology Tesla has developed, we question the leverage with which these companies are able to operate under. If something were to go wrong, we feel an eventual Solyndra Greenmail situation would occur. Tesla would be TBTF to the Government and have to pay. We feel Elon Musk knows this and is will play that card if need be.

Not Discussed: Business practices, Neoptism, valuations used for buyouts and other in depth proofs of what we are merely glossing over for now.

by Anonymous

reply 112

09/06/2016

Musk is a scam artist, and everyone knows it. But the Tesla is a good car.

by Anonymous

reply 113

09/06/2016

Bernie Ebbers was a scam artist too, but that doesn't mean MCI was a bad thing to happen to telecomm

by Anonymous

reply 114

09/06/2016

His Mars mission announcement was pathetic.

by Anonymous

reply 115

09/27/2016

Meanwhile the dickweed who wrote the article describes himself as "gearhead. Libertarian." Notice he's going after a green business. Not a word about the unbelievable wastage and bloat in military programs which make Tesla look like a 5c lemonade stand.

[quote]And he takes billions in tax money to fund his toys and fantasy projects. If poor people can't eat, it's not his problem- the taxes they pay make him RICH!!!

Yes because libertarians are deeply, DEEPLY concerned about whether poor people are eating.

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