Great point! They can't continue to move the goal post. Somehow the Chinese mints or the one who commissions the series, must say what is being minted and how many, and then after a certain period, should declare a mintage, and after the declaration is made, no more should be minted, period! This protects the collector base. If the Perth Mint can figure out how to do this, surely the chinese can too!

I call it credibility. Credibility is used to build trust. With trust between parties, business risk is diminished.

Trust is one of the building blocks of a strong and successful society.

Credibility seems to be going extinct in many corners of our world, not just MCC. When credibility goes I don't know how we do business.

andrewlee10

MCC and medal exist for few decades. All mints declare the planned mintage and do not declare the actual mintage which is fact and cannot be changes. I personally view that it will not change in short term and near future. Only individual person declare the actual mintage and no-confirmation from the mints at all. Take the silver antique mammoth as example. Utah say all so call actual mintage allocate to one dealer only. KOT say 200 to a "big" dealer in china. What happen after few years which another news. This mentioned by me earlier "how reliable the news?" All information is pieces by pieces. Welcome to the MCC and medal world. You like it or not it is their ways and their ways has not changes from earlier days till now. Is that the MCC and medal collectors significant reduce and make a pain and wake them up? This is simple facts which we know it. Accept it or not is our choice at this moment. you can not buying MCC and medal. However, will significant amount of collectors outside china not buying and wake them up?

I do not "trust" the person who commissions the series the mintage because he is not neutral for this case. As my understood, the copyright of the medal is belong to the mints no longer to the person who commissions for certain mints. Therefore, the mints still can mint to full mintage if it is doing well even the person commissions the series say NO. I am not sure is that true since I do not see the contract. The person who commissions the series also can get a someone to declare the mintage rather than themselves. Fake and faults news always happen and no one can guarantee the mints will no longer mints the balance since the mints do not declare the actual mintage as Perth Mints.

For me, I accept the facts and always view the mints can mints the balance and take full mintage in decision making ( China medal). As MCC I will use Peter Anthony estimate mintage and plus some research and talks to the major dealers in china and overseas. This give me more information in decision making.

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andrewlee10

MCC in initial usage referred mainly to fiat coins made by and for Chinese mints starting in 1979. Due to the increasing number and variety of non-fiat coins that have been made since, MCC at times is a term that covers both fiat and non-fiat coins the latter of which are also called medals. I liberally used MCC and the words "coins" and "medals" in my write up to refer to all modern Chinese precious and non-precious fiat and non-fiat coins.

There is controversy about coinage terminology and most of the Chinese coin forums have discussions on the matter. Badon, for example, has rather strong views. fwang2450 also has written on this. So have many others. Perhaps it is not who wins the argument that is the issue, it is the realization that there has been an evolution of Chinese coinage practices since the original terminology and abbreviation were instituted. This is similar to changes that have occurred all over arts and science necessitating the modification of older terminology or expanding their usage. "MCCM" could be a modification that encompasses "Modern Chinese Coins and Medals".

I am lazy of not reading all old threads of the discussion. Just try to get your clarification of your definition of MCC to ease the reader. MCC or fiat, no fiat and so on the most important is reader know it is refer to both by you.

The above notwithstanding everything I wrote still stands and your account confirms my main contention which is that there is little information available on modern Chinese coins and medals. Yes, as time goes on good detective work and some well placed guesses provide additional information on issues relating to coins and medal produced in China. But this is not an optimal or much desired situation.

I stated less information in China medal BUT NOT MCC. Significant information available for MCC in English especially panda. Pricepedia also a good guide for MCC price and development BUT It does not inclusive all private deals which is the same case for other than china coins. (please correct me if I am wrong because I am not super knowledgeable of other than china coins).

I agree with you that there may be more resource material written in Mandarin but that information is not directly available to non-Mandarin speakers/readers. This places them at a competitive disadvantage which in the longterm may have negative consequences on the trade in coins and medals. Although there may be an increasing domestic market for coins and medals, ignoring the needs of the large collector base outside China will be analogous to shooting yourself in the foot! Vibrant businesses and economies excel when they are able to pull in trade funds from outside their geographical regions. So a booming international trade in coins and medals adds to China's bottom line.

In the same token the seller or distributor who is able to provide his clients with adequate information on coins and medals including direct translations of documents written in Mandarin, is likely to do much better compared to others who hoard the information or do not understand that modern business success depends a lot on providing clients with extensive information. Gone are the days of paternalistic, patrichial, "mother knows best" business practices!

The bottom line is that people now have an extensive array of choices available to them. Even if Chinese mints have enjoyed success in certain aspects of the trade other country mints are also doing very well and taking market share (e.g. lunar coins and medals). Most of these non-Chinese mints provide extensive and accurate information on their products including mintage and descriptives of artwork and inspiration.

I has mentioned earlier which mints do not official announce the actual mintage for decades. Will we change their ways of doing things in short term which is clear.

Seller or distributor to translate huge information from Mandarin articles to English is a good ideas. However, it is additional cost to them. How many will do it? How capable for them to do it? How accurate of the information? Any bias and personal conflict ?

Many MCC distributors do use bi-lingual in newly launch MCC. However, it is not all of them. The information even is very basis and just direct translation from announcement of the mints. NOT many even translate some important articles of china coin experts from Mandarin to English. WHY???? My guess is it is additional costs and this type of value added services are easily copying by others. Personally I do provide additional information to customers individually BUT I did inform them it cannot be 100 accurate since I am translating and express my own view which can be bias. I likely to do some translation and add information to my webpage due to personal hobby. NOT many pure seller would like to spent time to do it for various reasons.

I hope my small step will change the china market BUT I do not give a big hope on it at all. It is not likely to change the way mints operating. I also do not view that my small step will lead customer to pay me more and purchase same item from me which is available cheaper. However, I believe some will repeat buying due to additional effort by me. However, many webpage of MCC selling do not provide those article translation and so on till now. MCC and medal businesses exist for decades as we known. WHY not many do it? Or even we can use our finger to count the number of sellers do this in their webpage publicly and not privately. Bias and conflict of interest is another crucial factor to seller to consider publish those information in public in their webpage. In additional, they can say the medal planned mintage is "xxx" as per coa BUT actual mintage is "xxx". after years the mints might mints the balance which is not under he/she control and he/she might lapse to update it. Some customers will understood BUT not all especially new customers and collectors.

There is a recent trend towards producing an increasing number of metal types of coins and especially medals, based on one design. A classic example is the 2014 Nanjing (Two Lovely Pandas) Endangered Species medal (of which I own some). This can induce buyer fatigue especially if such mintage plans are not declared upfront.

Again, information is the key. If the plan is to mint different varieties of a coin or medal, this should be communicated upfront so that collectors/buyers can structure their purchase plans according to their interests. Chinese mints cannot continue moving the goal posts!

Again, will those small noises change the china mints and those who commissions the medal ways of doing things? This do not changes over decades till now. Will this happen in short term? Will you stop MCC and medal collection?

2014 Nanjing (Two Lovely Pandas) Endangered Species medal is typical example. However, it is selling well as my available information. Even this might not be true BUT do any dealers reduce their price significantly(> 30%)? If I am not wrong it is "NO". This make me believe the information of selling well is true.

Simple and again......can we change their ways of doing things since they are selling well. Any incentives for them to release the information earlier? They might be not plan to do it at the times minting the cooper and silver version. When the sell is good which make them mints the brass. Antique brass and cooper are internal circulation only which end up less than 15 set available for sell. I have 4 set which 1 for sell, Barsenault has 3 set which 1 sold. I estimate and track Lucky sold around 6 set.

You might not like their ways BUT can you change them? I believe some collectors did do the same things, thinks the same ways like you and would like them to change BUT the mints did not changes for decades. As my knowledge some of the collectors did pissed off by the mints ways and send them advise and complaint BUT they still not change. I do hope them change BUT it is slim chance in short term and near future. I cannot keep on trying to complaint to them even I did it. I have given up to change them BUT I do try to get more information to customers individually because I have the same believe like you guys here. However, realistic is cruel and hard to swallow. I am not pay any extra efforts and times of doing something which is not effective.

andrewlee10

our favorite Nanjing Pandas. Loved by few, and hated by some. lol. I happen to be one of the lovers. lol. In case you were wondering.

I did mentioned Bald panda is not my type. I am seller, collector and investor so I buy it for sell and invest. I owe all type of this Nanjing panda. I try to get majority of the Cooper PF70. I owe 4 of PF70 which is big percentage of total pop of PF70.

I am more open which do not hide. Will many of here tell us the quantity of gold fish, pagoda and great wall owe by them ? Might be someone here has big percentage of those and keep it quite all times. No way to be transparent lol

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barsenault

Are you saying there are some throwing stone at folks who hold more than a few of a particular item, and they're being accused of not being collectors; yet, these same folks, who are throwing the stones, and who are collectors, are hording more than a few of the highly sought after early year gems, but it's okay for them to do? Nah, couldn't be. Hypocrisy here? I don't believe it.

Thanks Andrewlee10 for your extensive responses. Best of wishes and good luck in everything you do. Keep on working as hard as you are doing and bring us information and clarification of issues relating to "MCCM" whenever you can.

andrewlee10

Many foreign investors even the government investment arm do rush for investing to china as when they open up the economy in earlier years.

Singapore government loss significant of money in Suzhou industry part at early years of investment and big news in headlines in those days. However, do this news stop Singapore companies invest into china and other foreign companies and governments invest in china ? answer is NO. Why? many want to share the pie even high risk and no transparency.

The legislation is not mature at early days and even now. Legislation is one things enforcement is another. So what is the current direct investment in china ? The foreign currency control and many legislation to discourage and prevent remit the profit back to foreign country. why still invest? LOL

I call it credibility. Credibility is used to build trust. With trust between parties, business risk is diminished.

Trust is one of the building blocks of a strong and successful society.

Credibility seems to be going extinct in many corners of our world, not just MCC. When credibility goes I don't know how we do business.

As I have gotten older I often wonder if this is how it has always been and I am just becoming more aware of it or indeed 'credibility' is getting lost more and more.

It is good to see you rejoin the conversation. Passion runs high in forums but it is an imperfect world. Who is the best? Not me!!

There seems to be tacit acceptance that the end justifies the means. In the West shareholder dividend needs are conveniently blamed for justifying aggressive profit making business practices. Whalepricing is accepted in other areas.

Maybe it's just shoddy MCC mint practices and not realizing how detrimental such gaps in mintage information have in the longterm. Only time will tell.

It is not just the ring leaders, it is also the silent majority, who sit by and pretend not to see what is happening.

Stuff is going down right now at LBC. The alter ego and his well met friend are at it again lampooning a fellow forum member and coin seller who tends to keep quiet. Little do they know how much they are damaging further their own credibility and they expect to sell coins too? And we are the fools?

As I have gotten older I often wonder if this is how it has always been and I am just becoming more aware of it or indeed 'credibility' is getting lost more and more.

It is good to see you rejoin the conversation. Passion runs high in forums but it is an imperfect world. Who is the best? Not me!!

There seems to be tacit acceptance that the end justifies the means. In the West shareholder dividend needs are conveniently blamed for justifying aggressive profit making business practices. Whalepricing is accepted in other areas.

Maybe it's just shoddy MCC mint practices and not realizing how detrimental such gaps in mintage information have in the longterm. Only time will tell.

It is not just the ring leaders, it is also the silent majority, who sit by and pretend not to see what is happening.

Stuff is going down right now at LBC. The alter ego and his well met friend are at it again lampooning a fellow forum member and coin seller who tends to keep quiet. Little do they know how much they are damaging further their own credibility and they expect to sell coins too? And we are the fools?

****Response from badon:This seller might be fraudulent. He has very little feedback, few sales, and most of his photos are taken from other listings from other dealers. Plus, there is $25 shipping, which makes the saving less impressive compared to dragonzeng168's listing (it's still $17 cheaper). The downside to shipping charges is it's more difficult to recover them if you must return an item. With free shipping, you get the full amount back if you have to return.