Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

If O'Sensei himself had a weakness, a something he had yet to improve and learn, it was how to communicate (teach) the principles he knew in such a way that others could understand and grasp.

Doesn't O-sensei mean Great teacher?

偉大な秘密キーパー ???

As far as Tohei sensei goes, my opinion is that those 4 principles Tohei sensei describes are much better thought of as "principles of validation" than "principles of implementation".

I have experienced so many people trying to "extend ki" in a way that is just stupid in terms of martial arts. If he said something like: "expand intent in six directions all at once such that you are able to support the spirals you create while engaged with attacks" - it would be a bit more helpful to me...

....If he said something like: "expand intent in six directions all at once such that you are able to support the spirals you create while engaged with attacks" - it would be a bit more helpful to me...

Rob

Actually he did talk about six directions..specifically.
He did talk about intent in the fingers coming from the hara.
None of it made it through the translation process, coming from the the modern aikido people translating who were completely unaware of what was going on. Thus the readers never had a chance.
Spiral energy would not ever have come from Tohei. He didn't exhibit it. But Ueshiba's whole art was based on spiral energy, just as it is in DR. At least DR states it and gives a clue, Ueshiba didn't even go that far -even though it is evident in his movements and in the Daito ryu waza that all of Aikido's waza is built on.
When you paint a picture of the modern students and their level of understanding and compare it to what we know of the prewar guys it is pretty revealing. It's no wonder none of the pre-war guys really wanted to come back when they saw what was going on.
I think Ueshiba's shouting of "this is not my aikido" when he saw what was going on after he retired was probably echoed in their voices as well
Cheers
Dan

Calling it so and thus assigning it as the cause for failure is due to A lack of understanding.

Regards.G.

Graham:

Your level of understanding "astounds" me! Unfortunately, you missed teaching Dan last time he was down the street from you. Luckily for you, he will be back in your neighborhood in the near future. You should extend an invitation to him to attend one of your classes so that he can learn about his failures and lack of understanding. Please video tape that class and post on Youtube.

Please excuse this interruption, but don't those four principles belong to the teaching of Shin shin toitsu do, i.e. the Tempukai?
I don't think they are usable to teach aiki like used in aikido or daito ryu?
And I don't think, Ueshiba osensei ever used them?

There are only 27 dojo of ki aikido all over Gemany and they follow a certain Yoshigasaki sensei. They don't claim to use "aiki", but try to just use "ki". Which is different.
So the way of using aiki / ki musubi and connecting using atari which I try to learn, simply doesn't exist in their aikido.

So I think those four principle are simply not designed to teach what for example Daito ryu calls aiki?

FWIW, I agree that Tohei's four basic priciples can lead to some confusion. Heck, I've seen it and explained around it myself, but there are other things in what he taught that provide clarification for some of those principles. Relax completely goes hand in hand with orenate (unbendable arm). It's often seen as one of his ki tests, but it is also a foundational, physical thing that should be stressed and focused on in EVERYTHING you do. You can't have one without the other. If someone spends some time resolving those two concepts they can get a pretty good idea of what it means to be strong and connected, but also relaxed and soft.

Please excuse this interruption, but don't those four principles belong to the teaching of Shin shin toitsu do, i.e. the Tempukai?
I don't think they are usable to teach aiki like used in aikido or daito ryu?
And I don't think, Ueshiba osensei ever used them?

There are only 27 dojo of ki aikido all over Gemany and they follow a certain Yoshigasaki sensei. They don't claim to use "aiki", but try to just use "ki". Which is different.
So the way of using aiki / ki musubi and connecting using atari which I try to learn, simply doesn't exist in their aikido.

So I think those four principle are simply not designed to teach what for example Daito ryu calls aiki?

IMO, the proper understanding and implementation of those four principles will help establish a coordinated mind and body, which is required as a foundation to build aiki on.

Your level of understanding "astounds" me! Unfortunately, you missed teaching Dan last time he was down the street from you. Luckily for you, he will be back in your neighborhood in the near future. You should extend an invitation to him to attend one of your classes so that he can learn about his failures and lack of understanding. Please video tape that class and post on Youtube.

Marc Abrams

Are you astounded Marc? Fair enough.

The statement I made remains true no matter how astounded or flabbergasted you may feel. Shame it has that effect on you.

I didn't assign failure to Dan thank you very much.

To imply what I should do is quite amusing, but I'll say thanks for the suggestion anyway.

Denigrating another style of Aikido is at best bad manners. As I've said before it's totally unnecessary and in my view there is no excuse for so doing. It reflects badly on the person saying it.

My level of understanding on this kind of Aikido is indeed very high, much higher in fact than you even dare to believe I would say according to your reactions. However, for me to comment on your style from the view of expertise on it would be really stupid of me.In fact it would be quite arrogant wouldn't you say?

Please excuse this interruption, but don't those four principles belong to the teaching of Shin shin toitsu do, i.e. the Tempukai?
I don't think they are usable to teach aiki like used in aikido or daito ryu?
And I don't think, Ueshiba osensei ever used them?

There are only 27 dojo of ki aikido all over Gemany and they follow a certain Yoshigasaki sensei. They don't claim to use "aiki", but try to just use "ki". Which is different.
So the way of using aiki / ki musubi and connecting using atari which I try to learn, simply doesn't exist in their aikido.

So I think those four principle are simply not designed to teach what for example Daito ryu calls aiki?

Hi Carsten.
Just for perspective those four principles are A set to do with mind and body unification. You should look at this as the meditation side. Then there are other sets of principles, the next most known set being the five principles of Aikido. They work in unison. So, along with the other sets, plenty to learn.

When practiced as a discipline over however long it takes then it leads to understanding Aikido. That was Toheis aim. No different to others who formed their own teaching methods and principles to follow to achieve the same ends.

Doing so does indeed lead to discovering musubi, etc.

As with all styles and all arts there is of course the factor of good teaching and the factor of time. Most people in my view, especially in this day and age are looking for the 'quick fix' the 'easy way' and so we get hundreds if not thousands blaming either the teaching or coming out with excuses of 'i did that for x amount of time' and so I'm now an expert in how it doesn't work. To me basically they didn't keep at it and go through the necessary barriers. We even have experts based on hearsay and opinion but they can't do it, have never done it etc. Everyone in a hurry, wanting to be at the top, gleefully putting others down. A sign of the modern person rather than the state of the art.

As far as Tohei sensei goes, my opinion is that those 4 principles Tohei sensei describes are much better thought of as "principles of validation" than "principles of implementation".

I have experienced so many people trying to "extend ki" in a way that is just stupid in terms of martial arts. If he said something like: "expand intent in six directions all at once such that you are able to support the spirals you create while engaged with attacks" - it would be a bit more helpful to me...

Rob

Great Teacher, indeed it does. That does show what great esteem he was held in over and above the norm. However if you find and research and hear peoples accounts of WHEN he got angry it was almost always to do with when students were not understanding what he was trying to get across or indeed sticking to it in action.

All caring teachers will have experienced this and find it is actually them being angry with themself for they want everyone to understand straight away. They have so much to share their own frustration with the time it takes others to understand tends to get to them sometimes.

As far as Toheis principles go then I'm glad you preceded it by 'my opinion'. I assume that you do some style that emphasises six directions etc. Maybe Tomiki? Anyway whatever it is I wish you well.

IMO, the proper understanding and implementation of those four principles will help establish a coordinated mind and body, which is required as a foundation to build aiki on.
Greg

Hmmm...
I would agree whole heartedly with that, The only caveat being that they are not enough and in and of themselves, not complete. As you have stated, they are a foundation.

That said we have to hand it to the guy that he made an attempt at laying things out, as it was not that common in his generation. As a teacher he should be remembered; both for his power, and his attempts to come up with a teaching model to help others. For a Japanese teacher to not only care but to try and understand how to teach foreigners is a valuable example for those claiming to want to teach.

Ueshiba made his own attempts as well. Only recently have I seen the disconnect between what Ueshiba actually said and what the translators said he said. The founders message was actually clearer than he has been given credit for (if you knew what to look for) and it proves out his later approval of Tohei's work. Unfortunatley many had no clue of what he was talking about and he apparently offered little clarification. As an aside, I think Shirata's work is more complete than Tohei's model.

Lord knows it sure didn't trickle down to many of the modern students who are seemingly convinced they got it. Even the rather famous ones don't exhibit the same understanding. As has been demonstrated here with some of the recent vids from those gentle souls advocating ki... the movie title "Lost in translation" is more fact than fiction. It's no wonder there were ki wars here and elsewhere!
I'm on the side of the ki folks and yet I would argue against most of what I have seen of their use of ki all day long! I can understand why many in the aikido community had shunned these gentle ner-do-wells who failed under pressure and called them "aiki bunnies." I would too. The sad part is that guys under Tohei who actually had power... got shunned along with them.

Thank goodness there are tests -separate from waza- to blow up the imposters with little actual skill, if only to save others from years of work following them. That they avoid being put to the test is good judgment on their part. I have been witness to some of these people completely falling apart and not knowing what to do when they were outclassed. In their world view there is no good or bad, right or wrong, everyone is equal, even after they can't make anything they know, work. They can't process the obvious. It's weirdly uncomfortable watching them mentally process their inability to stop you, while you can do whatever you want to them and see them re-set and sort of tell themselves they are alright and it is just different. Sort of like the George Dillman stuff; not being able to cast chi energy...with news reporters present. It just doesn't register to them that it only works on the initiated!

Similar things are probably going to happen with the recent IP/aiki training; no doubt that people claiming to know it, are going to muck it up like everything else we do to the martial arts. In the ICMA, I've already met people with decades of training under internal gurus with all sorts of neat information, who for all their effort...suck! They are stiff, shoulder driven, one-legged-army warriors who can't stand any real pressure either.
It's tough when you have to express your understanding in your own hands, under pressure from an educated crowd, with no teacher, no style, no one to support you...just you. Not everyone gets an "A" or turns out to be equally "special."
Oh well
Dan

Actually he did talk about six directions..specifically.
He did talk about intent in the fingers coming from the hara.
None of it made it through the translation process, coming from the the modern aikido people translating who were completely unaware of what was going on. Thus the readers never had a chance.
Spiral energy would not ever have come from Tohei. He didn't exhibit it. But Ueshiba's whole art was based on spiral energy, just as it is in DR. At least DR states it and gives a clue, Ueshiba didn't even go that far -even though it is evident in his movements and in the Daito ryu waza that all of Aikido's waza is built on.
When you paint a picture of the modern students and their level of understanding and compare it to what we know of the prewar guys it is pretty revealing. It's no wonder none of the pre-war guys really wanted to come back when they saw what was going on.
I think Ueshiba's shouting of "this is not my aikido" when he saw what was going on after he retired was probably echoed in their voices as well
Cheers
Dan

I was also taught intent both in and through fingers with many many hours of drills on these factors, drilling intent.

We were taught all forms of energy and application from spirals to circles to lines to attraction to extension et al. From centre and from one point and now being so 'modern' I use the word hara as well.

All this from someone who it wasn't taught to? All this from someone who read what wasn't there? I don't think so unless he was a magician and I didn't know.

I was actually taught much about the spiral and teach it to this day. All part of applying the principles of Aikido correctly. From the spiral of sankyo to the spiral of tai sabake, to the use to using it as centripetal force to the use of using it with centrifugal force and the ability to change it at will.

Sometimes now I get people to practice being as a hurricane or tornado for instance when doing a complete Tai sabake. Not in a destructive burst of violence but to get them to be calm like the hurricanes centre whilst spiralling energy, Ki, and thus how it fits certain motions. To do this with a calm centre and a still mind and other principles in at the same time ie zanshin etc is all part of Aikido as I was taught and took foreward.

The reality taught to us, on Toheis principles and more you have no idea of. The many different uses of centre, the many different uses of one point, the fact that shin shin toitsu Aikido wise if a person reaches that level then can be translated as the 'tying' or joining of minds and thus becomes in action sen no sen etc. Many principles, the whys, the hows, the whens, from the viewpoint of body, from the viewpoint of energy, from the viewpoint of space, from the viewpoint of motion, from the viewpoint of weapons, from the viewpoint of Ki, extending, condensing, circling, spiralling, changing the body, healing. Need I go on?

Yet along can come someone as is their right and point to four principles of mind and body unification and think they know all about it. Unfortunate I think.

Now I'm sure I must be guilty of this in some walks of life. I may put down politics and say it's all this or that but in truth I have never been one.

Thank goodness there are tests -separate from waza- to blow up the imposters with little actual skill, if only to save others from years of work following them. ...
Similar things are probably going to happen with the recent IP/aiki training; no doubt that people claiming to know it, are going to muck it up like everything else we do to the martial arts.

I think this is very important. Imagine, some guy showing as credentials how many Sigman seminars he's been to, or some guy saying "my teacher trained with Dan for years."
OK that's nice to know, but there should be a "show me the money" kind of evaluation. I'm a little worried about what the etiquette would be for that. But it is a near certainty that history will repeat itself. The community just needs to keep getting smarter.

Tests/demos could be part of that. Then even if one guy thinks he can replicate Ueshiba's demos, we don't have to take his word for it, we evaluate it ourselves.

What tests are there? I mean, things that really can't be BSed using other means? Delivering "short power," receiving pushes to the chest with the pusher being free to try to trick you.. are those good? How about, being able to take balance right away upon being grabbed (no matter what the grabber is doing)?
Being "unthrowable?"

We need tests that can't be BSed easily and can't easily be misrepresented.

I'm interested in how this person did anything to you-- as in, did the limpness go away and get replaced with regular old arm- and shoulder-driven movement when they were nage?

Quote:

Dan wrote:

...stuff their arms into their bodies and then use their arms to throw their bodies. There's no point in letting their lack of understanding be reinforced. Keep throwing them till they get that, that type of "relaxed" is nonsense.

Some more thoughts on the memory...
I tend to be a softy (a tight-shouldered softy), particularly when I get the sense the other person isn't a very "physical" person and, more to the point, is uncomfortable with physical force. I would still try to control the trunk through that "noodly" arm though. It was tricky establishing any feeling like I had any connection to it. She certainly made me feel strong, which doesn't happen very often. I remember she reached a point where I had a much easier time feeling the intent of her actions (she became "denser" on some level of action). I remember I kept thinking about the "rule of 10." So at first I would guess I had to use a 9.5 to her .5 input, but over time maybe it became an 8 or 9 to 2 or 1.
One thing I just remembered in working with people I felt "stronger" than, and which seemed to help in general, was to look for the "edge" of their ability. As nage I would try to make it so my newer ukes were just about to fall over and then let them (even tell them to) "fill back in" through the connection point, at certain points in the movement. As uke, I would generally try to push that edge (if I could aproach it at all), though very gradually. Another "trick" would be to tell them to hit me with their free hand (trained folks already tend to do this) since this seemed to at least engage more of their body into the movement. For my very low level of operation, i was generally just happy as long as I could feel an incoming intent.
I do remember being very surprised one time when I was uke and the woman I'm thinking of controlled me in a much more definately way (not that I've ever been a measure of powerful). She had been getting a lot more direct hands-on with sensei and worked hard on having better "coalescence of power."

The statement I made remains true no matter how astounded or flabbergasted you may feel. Shame it has that effect on you.

I didn't assign failure to Dan thank you very much.

To imply what I should do is quite amusing, but I'll say thanks for the suggestion anyway.

Denigrating another style of Aikido is at best bad manners. As I've said before it's totally unnecessary and in my view there is no excuse for so doing. It reflects badly on the person saying it.

My level of understanding on this kind of Aikido is indeed very high, much higher in fact than you even dare to believe I would say according to your reactions. However, for me to comment on your style from the view of expertise on it would be really stupid of me.In fact it would be quite arrogant wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.

Graham:

Opinions are like rear-ends and everyone has one..... Hey, in your world, everything is good and high level. Your videos speak volumes.

Once again, you have an opportunity to invite a guest to your dojo who will be in your town in the near future. Master level martial artists on down to rank beginners seem to agree that Dan Harden not only knows what he is talking about, can teach it, is a very nice guy and is a good judge of what people can really do (as opposed to their opinions). You think that you know what you know, why don't you let a good judge evaluate you and get back to all of us. You can talk the talk, your videos, to me and a lot of people senior to me, do not show convey to us that you can walk the talk. Since talk is cheap on the internet, it's time for you to step up to the plate and show somebody who can talk the talk and walk the talk, that you can do what you claim that you can do.

What you call arrogance, to me is a degree of respect that people develop with each other based upon the real world, not the world of talk. That is why I have an open-door policy at my dojo, based upon my willingness to always step up to the proverbial plate. That is why I went out of my way to meet and train under him for the first time. That experience let me to invite Dan to teach at my dojo every couple of months. Easy for you since he will be in your town, all you have to do is send him an invite. He's a gentleman so you would not have to worry about him trying to intentionally harm you. He is such a gentleman, if you ask nicely, I'm sure that he'll let you take him out for a spin. I would be fascinated to hear about how you corrected his misunderstandings about you.

Opinions are like rear-ends and everyone has one..... Hey, in your world, everything is good and high level. Your videos speak volumes.

Once again, you have an opportunity to invite a guest to your dojo who will be in your town in the near future. Master level martial artists on down to rank beginners seem to agree that Dan Harden not only knows what he is talking about, can teach it, is a very nice guy and is a good judge of what people can really do (as opposed to their opinions). You think that you know what you know, why don't you let a good judge evaluate you and get back to all of us. You can talk the talk, your videos, to me and a lot of people senior to me, do not show convey to us that you can walk the talk. Since talk is cheap on the internet, it's time for you to step up to the plate and show somebody who can talk the talk and walk the talk, that you can do what you claim that you can do.

What you call arrogance, to me is a degree of respect that people develop with each other based upon the real world, not the world of talk. That is why I have an open-door policy at my dojo, based upon my willingness to always step up to the proverbial plate. That is why I went out of my way to meet and train under him for the first time. That experience let me to invite Dan to teach at my dojo every couple of months. Easy for you since he will be in your town, all you have to do is send him an invite. He's a gentleman so you would not have to worry about him trying to intentionally harm you. He is such a gentleman, if you ask nicely, I'm sure that he'll let you take him out for a spin. I would be fascinated to hear about how you corrected his misunderstandings about you.

Marc Abrams

Marc.
Yes, I talk the talk. This is a forum for doing such.

Did I assign failure to Dan? Saying so is not the mark of a gentleman.

[/quote] " I would be fascinated to hear about how you corrected his misunderstandings about you.[quote] Mmmm. Neither is that.

Talk can be cheap, it can be very valuable. Videos? Now there's a topic, we won't go there.

How do you get from a discussion on centre and views on Toheis Aikido to this?

I've heard people talk of 6 directions as 8 directions and vice versa, so it isn't unheard of. There were a number of posts a few years back where people said something like 6/8 directions.

6= X Y Z axis, I believe the other 2 are 45 degree angles though I do not know if there is consistent references as to which axis or multiple axes on which these 45 degree angles are. Granted if you have an XYZ axis as a reference you can have unlimited angles, but 6/8 are essentially the same thing.

I'm not 100% sure if I understand what Graham means by spirals. It would be inaccurate for me to say that I can utilize a spiral and for a long time I thought it simply meant twisting the limbs as a result of locally engaging the muscles of the arms and legs to twist the limbs.

Quote:

I was actually taught much about the spiral and teach it to this day. All part of applying the principles of Aikido correctly. From the spiral of sankyo to the spiral of tai sabake, to the use to using it as centripetal force to the use of using it with centrifugal force and the ability to change it at will.

Similar things are probably going to happen with the recent IP/aiki training; no doubt that people claiming to know it, are going to muck it up like everything else we do to the martial arts. In the ICMA, I've already met people with decades of training under internal gurus with all sorts of neat information, who for all their effort...suck! They are stiff, shoulder driven, one-legged-army warriors who can't stand any real pressure either.

Well, 98% of anything is going to turn out to be crap - in the long run. Unless you're working with a very tiny number, with any large group it's really pretty hard to beat the curve. The important thing is that the information and training is out there and available to those people who have the will to take advantage of the opportunity to get to the top of the curve.

Jason.
Firstly if you look up any Aikido terminology starting with the word Happo then you will see.

Doing much Aikitaiso I learned what was called happo undo. Through the bokken happo giri.

One is eight direction ikkyo and one was eight direction cutting.North, south, east, west, north east, south east, south west, north west. ( any eight direction aikitaiso exercise we classed as happo undo for we also did eight direction funakogi undo)

Happo on it's own is to do with attention or ki out in all directions or you may say another way of saying zanshin.

Then a study of the foot and leg (knee) motion in shihonage, along with centre and centre line etc and the utilization of four directions which later you have to do in eight directions. Eight paths of least resistance.

I could go on and take it further but hopefully you get the picture.

Basically it gets the body used to turning or moving comfortably in all directions. Ki wise in that discipline it gets you used to directing in one direction and changing to other directions with ease. Etc.

Now what I don't know but think may be the case is that Tomiki Aikido use these principles in one form or another but I may be wrong there.

Jason.
Firstly if you look up any Aikido terminology starting with the word Happo then you will see.

Doing much Aikitaiso I learned what was called happo undo. Through the bokken happo giri.

One is eight direction ikkyo and one was eight direction cutting.North, south, east, west, north east, south east, south west, north west. ( any eight direction aikitaiso exercise we classed as happo undo for we also did eight direction funakogi undo)

Happo on it's own is to do with attention or ki out in all directions or you may say another way of saying zanshin.

Then a study of the foot and leg (knee) motion in shihonage, along with centre and centre line etc and the utilization of four directions which later you have to do in eight directions. Eight paths of least resistance.

I could go on and take it further but hopefully you get the picture.

Basically it gets the body used to turning or moving comfortably in all directions. Ki wise in that discipline it gets you used to directing in one direction and changing to other directions with ease. Etc.

Now what I don't know but think may be the case is that Tomiki Aikido use these principles in one form or another but I may be wrong there.

Regards.G.

I'm quite familiar with all the taiso, including happo and shiho undo. Thanks for clearing up what you meant by eight directions.