They started 4th on the grid last GP, how exactly is this falling behind ?

They were 0.4 seconds behind pole in Hungary, 1.4 seconds behind in Singapore and 1.05 seconds behind in Suzuka. Yes, they are different types of circuits, and there are circumstances to be accounted for, but it's pretty clear what's going on.

They were 0.4 seconds behind pole in Hungary, 1.4 seconds behind in Singapore and 1.05 seconds behind in Suzuka. Yes, they are different types of circuits, and there are circumstances to be accounted for, but it's pretty clear what's going on.

also i don't remember KIMI urging the team to bring updates and stating his title hopes depends on KOREA update so many times during his ferrari/macca days. of all the front running teams, i think lotus had the least amount of significant updates that are talked around. if i remember correctly, they had couple of FWs, one high DF rear wing update in singapore, monza spec efficient DRS RW, i think way back in bercelona side pod and floor change, and the bulbous nose. that's preety much it. they did tried to incorporate DDRS, we all know where that went.

i also believe this may be one of the reasons why they didn't update other aspect of the car as they perhaps wanted to sort it out first and then develop other parts in conjunction with DDRS, but i could be wrong. but i'd say this, much of lotus's pace is because of the fact that they had a superb car since barca winter test. not constant modification.

...but i'd say this, much of lotus's pace is because of the fact that they had a superb car since barca winter test. not constant modification.

This is very positive for next year. Hopefully between this weekend and the end of winter testing for 2013 they will be able to bolt on many of the exhaust innovations we've seen this year. Coupled with the strong baseline you mention, next year should be very promising.

hopefully lotus will get these exhaust and rear body updates up and running in korea. but funny enough, i'm actually looking forward for the YDT at abu-dhabi more than korea, DDRS coupled with Coanda exhaust should pave the way for a even more competitive 2013.

hopefully lotus will get these exhaust and rear body updates up and running in korea. but funny enough, i'm actually looking forward for the YDT at abu-dhabi more than korea, DDRS coupled with Coanda exhaust should pave the way for a even more competitive 2013.

I must say that the prioloty for the team also exist in giving Kimi a 100% functioning KERS for all races before the end of this season. Looking back is naturaly easier than preparing forward, but certainly if Kimi has had 100% functioning KERS in his car through out the season his result was much higher that what he could have done without. It is nice to have update this and that, but let us not forget the car uis not only made out of aero.

TYhios said, in my voice, it is great ithat engineers now clearly sees the positives in new exhaust and ready to put in on the car immediately.

I must say that the prioloty for the team also exist in giving Kimi a 100% functioning KERS for all races before the end of this season. Looking back is naturaly easier than preparing forward, but certainly if Kimi has had 100% functioning KERS in his car through out the season his result was much higher that what he could have done without. It is nice to have update this and that, but let us not forget the car uis not only made out of aero.

TYhios said, in my voice, it is great ithat engineers now clearly sees the positives in new exhaust and ready to put in on the car immediately.

a fully working KERS and quick pitstops are some of the things Kimi and we fans deserve at the least. if the lotus pit crews were just 0.1 sec faster in suzuka, kimi would've snatched 5th, and improving pitstops shouldn't be difficult as developing some aero kits, they need to improve wheel nut and jack design and ''beat the snot'' out of the pit crews with boot camps and mock pit stops, like macca and RBR does. that alone should gain them at the least 0.5sec/pit stop.

a fully working KERS and quick pitstops are some of the things Kimi and we fans deserve at the least. if the lotus pit crews were just 0.1 sec faster in suzuka, kimi would've snatched 5th, and improving pitstops shouldn't be difficult as developing some aero kits, they need to improve wheel nut and jack design and ''beat the snot'' out of the pit crews with boot camps and mock pit stops, like macca and RBR does. that alone should gain them at the least 0.5sec/pit stop.

Also the 100% kimi liked power steering and suspension system!!!

Next year pirelli tyre will hv wider working range...might help kimi in qualifying!!

Regarding the conspiranoic theories certain Spanish media have been publishing the last 48 hours: everybody knows who are the guys that always come out with the silly stories or the blatant insults. Nobody takes them seriously; not even here. These guys are, at the moment, being ignored or publicly laughed at by the serious media and even by Alonsists.

Franco, Miquel, Lobato... who reads/listen to them know what they are going to find, and that includes insulting (like a whole weekend calling Räikkönen "insensitive amoeba" live on TV, that was just a couple of races ago) or stupidities like what's being published by Diario As and Carlos Miquel recently).There is also good motorsport journalists in Spain (like Serrás from El País) and that's what you should look at if you are interested in reading something in Spanish every now and then. Those other guys are better being simply ignored.

Regarding the conspiranoic theories certain Spanish media have been publishing the last 48 hours: everybody knows who are the guys that always come out with the silly stories or the blatant insults. Nobody takes them seriously; not even here. These guys are, at the moment, being ignored or publicly laughed at by the serious media and even by Alonsists.

Franco, Miquel, Lobato... who reads/listen to them know what they are going to find, and that includes insulting (like a whole weekend calling Räikkönen "insensitive amoeba" live on TV, that was just a couple of races ago) or stupidities like what's being published by Diario As and Carlos Miquel recently).There is also good motorsport journalists in Spain (like Serrás from El País) and that's what you should look at if you are interested in reading something in Spanish every now and then. Those other guys are better being simply ignored.

I am not an Anti-Alonso, rarher someone who likes his all for racing attitude of Alonso, but these media hyps are not helping the rest to like Alonso. It was the same when Alonso was racing wheel to wheel against Hamilton in Mclaren. It is simply not a journalism in style to act like you not here above.This said, I believe that we wil finally win against those and achieve fair racing attitude.

some one actually called Kimi that???? i'm soooo mad right now that i'm literally gonna bicker about it here in autosport forum

Yes it happened. Lobato did it, live, on TV during the Monza weekend, and it happened in several ocasions. People complained about it and his reaction was to keep on calling him "insensitive amoeba" or just "amoeba" for the rest of the weekend. But this kind of behaviour just exposes Lobato and it actually only hurts him and not Räikkönen. This is not the first time it happened and it will not be the last time, it's a nice proof of a certain Lotus driver being too close to Alonso in the classification.

And this story even has some positives: if one day Mr Räikkönen is short of money, he just has to go to court and sue Lobato. He could get a nice chunck of money from it

@One: right, these guys don't help Alonso's case at all. I'm sure (which means "I hope"), he will be smart enough not to fuel such stupidities. It's really not worth it to lose time with this kind of stories, it's better just to ignore them.

really?? since spa until suzuka, Lotus has nvr gone well in term of pace!!

Grosjean definitely had the pace in qualifying in Suzuka. Never got the chance to see how he'd do in the race and Kimi had his KERS issue pretty much the whole time and a general lack of running over the weekend.

The difference between RBR and the Lotus E20 has increased dramatically since the start of the season. But the E20 is still very competitive. As Korzenlow likes to say "E20 was best car in Hungary " ; I'm afraid it hasn't been the best car anywhere since then, while the RBR has been the best or close-to-best in Singapore and Suzuka, very different tracks. Basically if Singapore and Suzuka had been held early in the season, the E20 would have done much, much better. Does this really need spelling out?

Grosjean definitely had the pace in qualifying in Suzuka. Never got the chance to see how he'd do in the race and Kimi had his KERS issue pretty much the whole time and a general lack of running over the weekend.

Had the pace for what? In earlier weekends, he usually had the pace for pole. Are you saying he had the pace for pole in Suzuaka?

Well the results say the E20 has lost ground, you're the one speculating that it's down to "F1 fans dont ever seem to learn that certain cars go well at different tracks."

This is my entire point. F1 fans fall for this all the time. A couple tracks where the car doesn't go well and 'they've fallen behind in the development race'. It happens every year. There's times where a car genuinely does fall behind, but its too early to say thats the case here.

Grosjean definitely had the pace in qualifying in Suzuka. Never got the chance to see how he'd do in the race and Kimi had his KERS issue pretty much the whole time and a general lack of running over the weekend.

after romain pit for fresh tyre in suzuka (early pit due to the crash) his pace was much worse than kimi's on worn tyre (6 lap older)!! As you said, kimi lost time and kers but still romain cant match it!! your point is invalid

This is my entire point. F1 fans fall for this all the time. A couple tracks where the car doesn't go well and 'they've fallen behind in the development race'. It happens every year. There's times where a car genuinely does fall behind, but its too early to say thats the case here.

Gotcha. You're saying there's not enough data to conclude that the E20 has fallen behind in general. I thought you were asserting that it is still as close as it used to be, which is a stronger statement. But you're not asserting that.

At the end of the day, even when "sufficient" data (as judged by you) has come in, it'll still be up for interpretation. I've seen enough to easily claim that the E20 has fallen behind. You'd rather wait for more data to come in, I get it.

Gotcha. You're saying there's not enough data to conclude that the E20 has fallen behind in general. I thought you were asserting that it is still as close as it used to be, which is a stronger statement. But you're not asserting that.

At the end of the day, even when "sufficient" data (as judged by you) has come in, it'll still be up for interpretation. I've seen enough to easily claim that the E20 has fallen behind. You'd rather wait for more data to come in, I get it.

Some of us aren't as risk averse as you.;)

E20's development has stagnated since spa, they only had a new rear wing to talk off. and in F1, if you're stagnated, you go backwards.

after romain pit for fresh tyre in suzuka (early pit due to the crash) his pace was much worse than kimi's on worn tyre (6 lap older)!! As you said, kimi lost time and kers but still romain cant match it!! your point is invalid

EDIT

Kimi was running a damaged front wing (still better pace than romain)

i'm preety sure romain had damaged his suspension in that head on tango with webber, also not to mention he was mostly in the traffic at the back due to 10s stop-n-go penalty. so we can't call it for sure really.

A different way to look at this is to ask the question: what were Lotus's advantages over it's rivals in the early part of the season? and then ask 1) do these same advantages still apply and 2) has Lotus found any new strengths over its rivals?

For example, I think Lotus had figured out managing tyres and degradation well before its rivals. That advantage has now been lost as RBR, and McLaren have gotten on top of the tyres (and Pirelli changed the tyres?). I don't see any new unique advantages that Lotus has added to its arsenal in between.

A different way to look at this is to ask the question: what were Lotus's advantages over it's rivals in the early part of the season? and then ask 1) do these same advantages still apply and 2) has Lotus found any new strengths over its rivals?

For example, I think Lotus had figured out managing tyres and degradation well before its rivals. That advantage has now been lost as RBR, and McLaren have gotten on top of the tyres (and Pirelli changed the tyres?). I don't see any new unique advantages that Lotus has added to its arsenal in between.

one of the main advantages of both LotusF1 and Sauber were their inability to operate EBD last year. Lotus ****ed up last year with forward EBD, so they had the experience running without blowing diffuser. thus they could protect rear tire more efficiently than others.But as most teams (RBR/macca etc) compensated EBD with coanda effect, they gradually clawed back the advantage they lost to Lotus at the start of the season.

after romain pit for fresh tyre in suzuka (early pit due to the crash) his pace was much worse than kimi's on worn tyre (6 lap older)!! As you said, kimi lost time and kers but still romain cant match it!! your point is invalid

EDIT

Kimi was running a damaged front wing (still better pace than romain)

I felt that - probably due to lack of race setup - the car seemed to be better in qualifying than the race (quite opposite to previous weekends). I think the tires were falling away in the race, but appeared to work well during the hot laps in quali..

Gotcha. You're saying there's not enough data to conclude that the E20 has fallen behind in general. I thought you were asserting that it is still as close as it used to be, which is a stronger statement. But you're not asserting that.

At the end of the day, even when "sufficient" data (as judged by you) has come in, it'll still be up for interpretation. I've seen enough to easily claim that the E20 has fallen behind. You'd rather wait for more data to come in, I get it.

Some of us aren't as risk averse as you.;)

I think the characteristics of the E20 didn't particularly suite Spa or Monza. So if we want to compare fundamental performance of the E20 to other teams, Singapore and Japan were better examples in my mind. While personally I felt that few of the top teams might have gained a few tenths on us, I also believe that the team certainly were not able to extract the full performance of the car during these weekends (for various reasons) - so personally I think the picture is pretty confusing at the moment.

your support and positivity for the team and for Kimi is immense and commendable. I think many here have become apprehensive for a variety of reasons. Mainly, the PR talk coming from the team doesn't match the results so far. And every week, we see some problem or another emerging... so it is natural that people start to voice concerns, doubts, etc.

There is no doubt that every team up and down the grid also have their problems, but I dun think they jump the gun and drum up their innovation quite like Lotus. I know Lotus is trying to sensationalize everything to attract new sponsors and keep existing sponsors happy but when the results don't really match up, it is the fans who suffer for it emotionally. I think it's important that fans are able to communicate their feelings and if the team really cares, they will change their approach in time. But maybe they think, ah, again, the crazy kimi fans... what do they know?

If the criticism is constructive, specific and objective, there is nothing like it. That's the best thing. But, lot of stuff I read here are the exact opposite. Sometimes people have no idea what they are talking about. The comments are way off and just pure non-sense.

I don't feel Lotus have bigged up their developments that much, not more than many other teams. Again, I think it is the disappointment and frustration of Kimi fans. Outsiders don't make much of it. You are right, most of the criticisms are likely to dismissed as bunch of crazy Kimi fans'. I myself can see it.

I think the characteristics of the E20 didn't particularly suite Spa or Monza. So if we want to compare fundamental performance of the E20 to other teams, Singapore and Japan were better examples in my mind. While personally I felt that few of the top teams might have gained a few tenths on us, I also believe that the team certainly were not able to extract the full performance of the car during these weekends (for various reasons) - so personally I think the picture is pretty confusing at the moment.

I think we got out-developed during the summer break (the weeks they were allowed to work) after the Hungarian GP. Part of developing a car is making it suit tracks that didn't suit it when it was first launched. Look at RBR, they are rocking at almost all venues since the summer break - even being surprisingly good at Monza. Same with McLaren - amazing results since the summer break.

I predict the rest of the tracks won't suite the E20's characteristics very well either

Having said that, I see your point, and I guess it remains to be seen who will turn out right.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am quite happy with the team for how much they've accomplished so far - they're doing awesome work with the tools that they have. I already consider the season a success.

Its the same thing EVERY YEAR. F1 fans dont ever seem to learn that certain cars go well at different tracks.

When you don't go well in Spa/Monza, don't go well around Singapore, and don't go well around Suzuka, you lack performance and need updates. End of it. These tracks cover pretty much the full spectrum.

And you shouldn't talk about other's ability to rank cars after telling that McLaren was better than Ferrari around Suzuka...

The problem is not that Lotus isn't bringing updates the problem is it simply isn't good enough. Other smaller teams like Sauber and Williams haven't lost out as much as Lotus so it is not a resource problem either, they just diverted their attention onto the wrong route of development. But right lets see what they can do this weekend, hopefully it will be better then last weekend.

Williams haven't lost out as much? Last time I checked, Lotus is still a much better car and is closer to the front than Williams. Nothing much has changed between the Lotus-Williams gap from the beginning to now.Sauber: They have done better in 2 of the 4 races since the break. Does that mean Sauber has done better than Lotus this season? Absolutely not. They come to life now and then when the track and conditions suit them. I am not going to say that when Williams won at Spain or Sauber got 2nd at Malaysia and Monza, they had developed better than Lotus at that point of the season. It was more the case of track characteristics and conditions suiting them at that particular point of the season. How did Sauber compare to Lotus at Singapore? Some teams getting close to top teams at some stretch, and some top teams falling behind some small teams at some stretch is not proof to say that a team with low resources has done better. It has to be consistent and extend over a period of time. That, only Lotus has done. They are the only non-big team in championship fight this season.

Losing out by wrong route of development, hitting the sweetspot with a lucky update, just plain stretch of being less competitive, one cannot be sure of any of these. I maintain that Lotus has been the most impressive team this year, and the most overachieving team this year.

i'm preety sure romain had damaged his suspension in that head on tango with webber, also not to mention he was mostly in the traffic at the back due to 10s stop-n-go penalty. so we can't call it for sure really.

Yea, he definitely didn't have a straightforward race.

I'm definitely unconvinced that the Lotus was all that bad around Suzuka.

And I never said Mclaren were better than Ferrari at Suzuka, Skinnyguy. Not sure where you're making this stuff up from, but I'm not surprised to see you doing that again to discredit what I say. Becoming the norm these days.

Definitely. They are punching above their weight. Helped a little by Merc's haplessness.

I would agree that their car engineering was top of the mid-field across the first half of season. However, in the second half of the season, I would argue that it has not been particularly evident that they are better off car-wise than anyone other than STR and the new teams. And I think, setting aside drivers, their car engineering was their biggest forte by a wide margin.

And I never said Mclaren were better than Ferrari at Suzuka, Skinnyguy. Not sure where you're making this stuff up from, but I'm not surprised to see you doing that again to discredit what I say. Becoming the norm these days.

What are you on??? You did, buddy. Arguing if Massa´s result was fluke or deserved in the wake of Alonso´s comments, we argued exactly that. I told you how on Earth you came to the conclussion that McLaren guys should have ended in front of Massa, and there you said exactly that.

Good to know you don´t think it anyway.

Edit: I won´t delete this wrong rant, I messed and it stays here to my shame. It was actually as65p the one that I argued with about all this.

My bad

My point stands: The poor form recently in all sorts of circuits make a ridiculous claim to make that "Lotus hasn´t fallen behind in development, it´s just that these circuits didn´t fit their car".

They didn´t have good race pace theyhad showed before at Spa, no pace in Monza, no pace in Singapore, no pace in Suzuka... that covers perrty much every type of circuit, doesn´t it?

I dont think they properly got the opportunity to show what they could do in Suzuka.

We can figure out pretty well how a normal weekend could have gone: qualify in the 3rd-6th range, only behind RBR and maybe McLaren -drivers failed, it was within range-, but start even closer to pole thanks to sanctions.

Then drop backwards backwards behind both Ferraris and Saubers during the race.

Frankly that's nowhere near to the way they performed earlier, even in a circuit that should suit them. So yeah, they're falling backwards.

See, thats the part where I'm going to have to disagree about. We really dont know how it would have turned out. You can assume that if you like, but I dont think its a safe assumption.

Considering the margins, I think it's damn safe. Massa and Kamui ended miles down the road. Perez was on the claxon behind Kimi all the way. And if you lose 20 seconds because of a front wing, you change it. The car changing it wasn't faster either when it got clean air. Nothing points to something more positive to what ended happening.

im still taking Lotus very seriously in the coming races.

You do well. Their update is really big. If it works, they're a threat for your guys. If it doesn't, Lotus will score small points to the end of season in normal weekends.

Lotus team boss Eric Boullier says his team needs to stay united if it if to stand any chance of beating Ferrari to third in the constructors' championship, having lost ground in Japan last weekend.

Although Fernando Alonso was forced to retire from the race, Felipe Massa was able to take his best finish of the year with second to allow Ferrari to outscore its Enstone-based rival – with Kimi Raikkonen the only Lotus man to score in sixth place.

That has allowed Ferrari to extend its advantage in the race for third, but Boullier said it was important for Lotus to keep pushing in an attempt to get ahead.

“Obviously, it didn't go as well as expected,” he said in reference ot the Suzuka race. “Of course, I could always say that we've increased our gap to Mercedes in the constructors' championship, that Kimi is still third in the drivers' classification, that our pace in qualifying was actually very good. But, ultimately, we scored eight points only where, after P3 on Saturday, we could have thought about a much better result. It would have been possible to close our gap to Ferrari in the standing and, ultimately, it has increased. Not ideal.

“I think the nearer we get to the end of the season, the more difficult it will be to achieve top results. We need to stay united though, stay focused on our job and make sure we can bring home more points. We're certainly facing less pressure from behind than we could have expected with a 104 point buffer from Mercedes in fifth, however it's starting to become harder now to catch Ferrari ahead of us in third position.

voice of reason form E.Boullier ... something new

“Coming into Suzuka with a 14 point difference and six races to go was a lot more achievable than 24 points with five remaining. What's clear is that we need to get both of our cars into the points. We also need to add performance to the E20 so we are not having to trade paint with Ferrari, but are well ahead of them on the track instead.”

no shit Einstein, now coach your preety boy Grosjean to pay attention to where his front wheel and FW is and score some decent point, not to mention taking point away from F.Alonso.