To me the point of contributing posts on any forum, is to provide useful and interesting and engaging information that hopefully adds some value to the reader. If the attitude out there is that everything posted is fair game to be ripped apart - and that is the overriding attitude prevailing in the replies to posts - then people won't disseminate information for fear of being ridiculed. And there is no doubt that that is the case. And it's the same dudes trashing posts all the time and there is nothing that identifies them.

Stand up and be counted if you want to post destructive criticism. At least have the guts to identify yourself.

Or better, save it.

Justin, I think you should post some guidance on forum etiquette.

Here are some rules I think should apply.

1. Never defame anyone. So keep comments of a personal nature offline.
2. Constructively criticize the actions of someone if you have to. Don't criticize the person.
3. Stick to the point of the forum. Start a new topic if you want to deviate
4. Express opinions but don't judge. There is a not so subtle line between the two.
Any more....???

I would love to see more news in the forums about what people are doing and their ideas and sentiments. From the hits it is clear that many people read the forums but there is not much news posted, probably because of the trashy responses posted.

So get a life out there all of you and try talk things up a little rather than always talking things down.

In my opinion the flamers help keep the ballance. Without them some seriously lame crap gets posted (remember when Stone stoped flaming). It keeps everyone in check. Its a public forum, you have to check what you write, make sure of your facts & make sure that you make sence. The real discussion comes out during the rants. Be less sensitive. Keep posting to correct your view. If you post, expect a response.

Climbers, generaly, have strong opinions.

Oh, I'm Derek Marshall, PE, you are all always welcome to come climbing if you are passing this way.

Derek, I don’t think that flaming stops lame crap being posted. Yes, at times, some of the flames are quite funny - but I agree with SNORT that the flaming is stopping many people from contributing. St0ne was certainly no poster child for whom to have on a quality forum. In fact, ultimately st0ne (8a, guest, etc) was banned from this forum because he was sending people private massages spewing hectic profanity and telling them he "was gonna get them".

Please also bear in mind that we don’t sit on the forum 24hours of the day (nor do we want to!) - so we cannot be policing every post. We don’t want to play kindergarten cop and what offends one portion of the forum users doesn’t offend the other.

This is an example of what kindergarten cop might look like:

@Xmod - please don’t call SNORT "old chap". It's rude. Also please don't accuse Tony & SNORT of drinking. Especially if you "might have heard wrong". It's rude and possibly wrong and might get them in trouble. Now everyone will under stand why you changed you name to Xmod (i.e. GriGri used to be a ClimbZA moderator)

@brolloks - please don’t call SNORT short. It's rude.

@robertbreyer - I'm not quite sure what to reprimand you for but I wouldn’t want the other boys to feel singled out. So please don’t try & force SNORT to write 12 words or less. He may write as much as he likes.

So, in conclusion, the forum is there - use it , don’t use it . Obviously we'd prefer you use it, sometimes a thick skin helps.

@Charles what are you moaning about bru, really! You set yourself up in the helmets thread totally, even if unwittingly. I thought I was writing something witty and funny. Surely you can see the humor?(even if you were the butt of the joke). If not then you need to gain a sense of said humor. There is a vast difference between poking a bit of fun at people/ situations and abusing them. So stop feeling sorry for yourself dude. Leave it to the forum mods to sort out rules and unruleyness, its not your job. Some insight: My Father was bit of an alcoholic and I strongly dislike drunken behaviour. Whatever - each to their own. Snort we like you lank bru, so dont take a few rib pokings so hard ok?

BTW @Toprope (Rikki?) my 'perhaps I heard wrong' was the joke/punchline in that sentence. Also 'old chap' is a perfectly normal english term of endearment which, considering Im of similar age, cant be construed as being rude. (anyway I get that you are being sarcastic)

As far as news goes mine is That I got on Rock for the first time (just about) in two years last weekend and will do so again tomorrow. YAY! So nice not being injured!! Also looked for new crags today and last three weekends, some stuff there but nothing like Hellfire - pot of gold that place. Probably wont make the ledge tomorrow, Snort, but hopefully soon. Got get fitter for that walk up!! -Oh its Greg btw.

Personally I wouldn't visit this forum if it wasn't for the banter. I wish there was more of it. Also climbing is fun to do but it's not that interesting to talk about. The bullshit spices things up and spurs things on more than it scares people away from posting. Also anonymity is one of the main features of a forum. It allows you to say thing you normally wouldn't say. I think that's a good thing.

Yes it can be entertaining but it can also become tedious in the extreme if everything is a diss down, negative and ultimately destructive. And it is also not entertaining to everyone. It no doubt intimidates many people from posting positive and entertaining snippets of news on the forum. And the "banter" is also dominated by too few individuals with an over-riding oppressive style.

Secondly anonymity does not warrant character assassination (also known as defamation) of anyone. And not everyone who posts is anonymous. I personally think one lacks character if you can only give negative criticism as anonymous especially if the one you having a go at is known.

Finally, if you banter, poke fun, diss etc at least be civilized about it. Hence some rules. It takes no skill to descend to the lowest common denominator of poor taste.

@ SNORT, if "a case for wearing helmets" is an example of what you describe as :"tedious in the extreme", "everything is a diss down, negative and ultimately destructive", "character assassination", "destructive criticism" then jees dude you've really lost me. I wouldnt use any of those descriptions for the topic in question, nor for just about all the other topics out there...
Sure there are cases where people have gone overboard but i personally tend to agree more with marshall, xmod saman etc. on this one.

I agree with snort (potential flame), there is a saying that "no question is a dumb question" (potential flame) however if we flame everyone then the probability is that the question wont be asked. So instead we are left only with "safe" conversations, less learning and a slow forum (because people are scared to talk - most people are wary of putting themselves out there).

When someone flames, fair enough it is meant as a joke, however the joke is usually more funny to the person who is actually not serious about the topic (potential flame), it's read and written more for comedic content than real value (potential flame) and it is a distraction or irritation to the person who is trying to have the dumb question / comment / suggestion discussed on its real merit (potential flame). Plus if the question is lame it will dissappear down the forum list pretty fast.

There are many possible flames in what I have written. So we can either go rip it to shreds or we can consider the content and be constructive and use the forum for learning and assisting each other. I agree that the odd flame here and there is humorous (especially when the forum users know / climb with each other) but what I think Snort getting at is that most discussions end in a completely off topic mud slinging match which scares people away more than it attracts them.

When you register on this forum you agree to the following forum etiquette:

"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “Climb ZA” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “Climb ZA” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “Climb ZA” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised."

Although I do not necessarily agree with all the sentiments expressed in this forum topic, every single comment has been relevant and constructive. Lets keep it that way. And by all means take the Micky where it's called for.

There are countless posts with genuine questions/discussions which receive constructive and helpful responses, just look at the front page! Its the random, for-the-hell-of-it, "what do you say to this??" kind of posts which end up in the nonsense slinging discussions that we are discussing right now.

Anyway as ChainedFreeSpirit has kindly pointed out, if its not cool, it'll be removed. (potential flame)

U still bitchin Snort? Shhees.
I find the fact you think it is necessary to post what you think must be the forum rules that everybody else must follow 'overiding and oppressive' not to mention totally laughable and ludicrous! The forum rules were already made long before you started writing on this forum by the people who actually run this site.

You are a prime mover and shaker in our small community and deserve respect for the things you have made happen. But when you post complete nonsense like this it makes it really hard for others to show that respect or even take you seriously.

I also object strongly to your inference that anyone here has defamed you or attempted to 'asassinate' your character. Once again lighten up, lest your self righteousness becomes 'tedious in the extreme'! Go and visit some other forums and check out the petty arguments and squabbling that goes on there. I think you'll then realise that what goes on here is exceptionally benign.

i'm with xmod on this one, and 4 the record, that doesn't mean i'm 'against anybody'.

who determines "common values', "the rules", common decency"? and who says that when a person is 'taking the mickey where its called for' wouldn't turn out to be 'offensive' to someone else? seems like some people so frequently feel attacked or hijacked, and hurt...
more a case of having a low self esteem? or thinking way too much of yourself sometimes lead to people being offended too easily... thats just a fact of life...

you really can't control other people's thoughts and actions...the best you can hope for is that you may influence someone for the good...

the only controllable thing you have is your own reaction to these things, the things that make life tough and challenging sometimes...
and with a right attitude MOST things in life may become a positive...

Here we go again....Xmod, I shall take it from whence it comes. Before your post I fortunately got in the phrase: "Although I do not necessarily agree with all the sentiments expressed in this forum topic, every single comment has been relevant and constructive." So what's bitching about that?

I also said : "Here are some rules I think should apply."

You said: you think must be the forum rules that everybody else must follow. You misquote me. There is a difference between I think should and I think must. Yes?

You said "defamed you or attempted to 'assassinate' your character."

I did not specify my character. You make an assumption.

There have been negative inferences of other peoples' character on this website and one person I know is seriously unhappy about it. This is a public forum. Period! Stick to criticizing what people say or do (as you have done in your last post)and don't allude to them or their character.

For your edification:

Defamation is the publication of words or images to a person that damages the reputation of another.

A defamatory statement is one that is likely to cause ordinary, reasonable people to think less of the person about whom the words or images are published.

Well, if "ordinary reasonable people" did not read this website then I suppose that's no problem but I would like to think that's not true.

Well X-mod, in my opinion your last post just ruined a constructive topic for me. It went off the topic and re-hashed an old one. So I'm outa here.

Well that was the best part of this thread...a proper bun fight. Someone breaking rank & telling it how it is. This is the Forum. Thanks Xmud.

"A defamatory statement is one that is likely to cause ordinary, reasonable people to think less of the person about whom the words or images are published."
...folkes, we are not on TV, nobody is watching us or cares what we contributed. None are famous. All are consumed by their own lives.