If one were to read only the underlined part, then I can see why you are confused. But luckily, the website did not exclude this part: “Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.’”

The word “thus” is key here, because all the statements made before it were preliminary statements before this final one. That is, the Catholic Church is asserting that, while Muslims and Jews may profess to worship the Abrahamic God, and this profession makes them one step closer to truth, the Catholic Church the one, true expression of Faith.

But a guy washed up as an infant on a desert island, brought up by monkeys and dying at old age on the same deserted island can be saved.

How: if ***he responds fully to all the grace God sends him ***in his life. It would mean he recognizes there is a power over him and over all creation around him; upon which he is dependant. He submits to and honors this power. If he does so, he has responded to what God has given of Himself to him.

Everybody inbetween the fully practicing Catholic and this guy on the island can be saved by responding fully to all graces given.

The Catholic Church has received the fullness of the Revelation–to her God has entrusted all that He has revealed so far to man.

So how is the guy on the island saved through the Catholic Church, never even having heard the name of Jesus let alone her name?

Well, through the Church all God’s life flows out to this world. God’s life (grace) flows out to those who are in full membership with her. Grace flows out to those who are in partial membership with her. Grace flows out towards those who are in potential membership with her.

A non-Catholic can be a member of the Catholic Church in an “extended” sense: if he truly desires to be one with God in every way possible to him. * If *he would seek baptism into membership if he knew that was what was required. These “ifs” are known only to God, of course, who alone knows each man’s hidden heart.

Catholics have the sacraments, the ordinary means instituted by Jesus Christ to open ourselves to His life in us. Non-Catholics are without 5 or all of the 7 sacraments, so they lack the ordinary means to open our souls to grace. But they can still receive grace.

Insofar as people respond to these graces, that near do they approach God.

It is a grace to recognize the Catholic Church as this channel of all earthly grace. If one hears about the Catholic Church, and understands that she does indeed claim to be the One True Church of God, and still ignores her, his eternal soul is in danger, because he is hearing her claim yet rejecting it.

We are responsible to receive and respond to each and every grace given.

Those who know of the Catholic Church yet fail to follow the trail of bread crumbs which lead right up to her door–so often this is due in some part to failures/weakness/sins. So often it is because somebody does not want to give up some way of life. So often it is because there is bad will held in the soul against the Catholic Church. There are many excuses for staying outside the Catholic Church–which will not be honored by God.

Sam, I pray that you will see your way clear to coming closer and eventually into the Catholic Church. May God strengthen you as you talk to your Muslim friends whose backs are turned to the Church.

After reading that article, I’m really confused, if Muslims at the end would be considered in the plan of salvation, then why someone needs to convert if both religions would lead to salvation.

I’m asking that because I have to answer my fellow Muslims who are blaming me for considering Christianity.

Think of it as concentric circles emanating from God Himself.

God is Truth, perfect and complete.

The Catholic Church, the Church God founded, is the next circle out. God abides in her and protects the Truth entrusted within her.

The next circle would be the various Christian communities not in communion with the Catholic Church. They have some of God’s Truth (notably Christ’s divinity, the Trinity, etc) but lack some of it.

The next circle would be the other Abrahamic religions, which have knowledge of and worship the true God, but lack knowledge of His nature and plan, particularly the Trinity.

The next circle would be pagan religions which worship other or many gods. They possess natural law and a few truths.

Finally, we have the circle comprising atheists. They acknowledge no divinity whatsoever, and consequently are bereft of truth.

Since it is better to be closer than further from God, Muslims clearly have served the useful purpose of converting pagans and atheists to the worship of God. Since we all will either worship Him in the end or suffer for it, this is useful.

God may save whomever He chooses. He is God. He has revealed to us through His ministry on Earth and His Church that the best path to salvation is through the Catholic Church. It may not be the only possible path, but for you and I, seekers after the Lord, we can choose no other.

Islam is an excellent example that shows how God can use error and even evil to achieve a greater good. Mohammed’s beginnings and character are highly dubious and most of us know that Islam is a complete fabrication - a composite religion stolen in part from heretical Christian sources, some Judiac sources, some popular Arabic mythology and a fair amount of human tinkering and equivocating. Nonetheless, in that time the Arabian peninsula was a chaotic mess of warring tribes, cutthroats and caravan raiders and polytheist and pagan beliefs. The one good thing that came out of the error of Islam is that Mohammad all but wiped out pagan and polytheistic practices and brought the Arabians the core moral code of Christians and Jews (the 10 commandments) as ell as a concept of punishment for offenses to a moral standard. So in essence, a huge percentage of the planet is now “closer” to monotheistic practise of One Holy God - even though its a very primitive and partial revelation of God. This comes from the real truths that are in the stolen or hijacked partial Christian and Jewish teachings. So even though the Islamic religion is highly disordered compared to the fullness of truth of Catholic Teaching it has some elements that make it a much closer to God than pagan and polytheist beliefs.

God so values the worth of a single saved soul that he will suffer to permit millions of other gravely sinful souls committed to hating him to exist and do evil for as long as He can still harvest good souls. But in truth God calls each soul to Himself - Muslim, Christian, Atheist etc.

[quote=Teflon93]God may save whomever He chooses. He is God. He has revealed to us through His ministry on Earth and His Church that the best path to salvation is through the Catholic Church. It may not be the only possible path, but for you and I, seekers after the Lord, we can choose no other.
[/quote]

John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12: And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

God has already revealed to us the only path by which we must be saved from the wrath on the Last Day.

John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12: And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

God has already revealed to us the only path by which we must be saved from the wrath on the Last Day.

And all us Catholics will agree with you. And this is why we Catholics pray for Muslims, Atheists, Protestants and others to come to The Catholic Church and received the fullness of Christ’s teaching, all His graces and join in the full communion of the One Holy Apostolic Church - the mystical body of Christ.

And all us Catholics will agree with you. And this is why we Catholics pray for Muslims, Atheists, Protestants and others to come to The Catholic Church and received the fullness of Christ’s teaching, all His graces and join in the full communion of the One Holy Apostolic Church - the mystical body of Christ.

James

Yes, it is apparent that the verses posted would equally apply to Protestants as they would to Muslims and Atheists :eek:

Preach Christ and Him crucified. It seems some consider conversion to the Catholic Church as more imperative.

“Preach Christ and Him crucified. It seems some consider conversion to the Catholic Church as more imperative.”

…You insult those who wish the best, instead of what is only “sufficient”, for those who are coming to being within Christ’s Body.

The “thanks” to you was my recognition that you’re at least trying to be as helpful as you know how to potential Christians.

It’s just too bad that you slight those who are trying to be most helpful to them.

There is a big difference between what you are stating above and comparing a Protestant, who names the name of the Savior, in the same breath as those who reject Him as God, and deny the honor and majesty due Him as their Creator.

The Catholic Church, the Church God founded, is the next circle out. God abides in her and protects the Truth entrusted within her.

The next circle would be the various Christian communities not in communion with the Catholic Church. They have some of God’s Truth (notably Christ’s divinity, the Trinity, etc) but lack some of it.

The next circle would be the other Abrahamic religions, which have knowledge of and worship the true God, but lack knowledge of His nature and plan, particularly the Trinity.

The next circle would be pagan religions which worship other or many gods. They possess natural law and a few truths.

Finally, we have the circle comprising atheists. They acknowledge no divinity whatsoever, and consequently are bereft of truth.

Since it is better to be closer than further from God, Muslims clearly have served the useful purpose of converting pagans and atheists to the worship of God. Since we all will either worship Him in the end or suffer for it, this is useful.

In another thread I used a model similar to this. The Church is the Barque of Peter, the Catholic Church. Jesus is aboard and has life rings attached to long ropes (Graces). Those in the “shark filled waters of the world” swimming close to the boat are Catholics, non- Catholic Christians swim a little further out and atheists swim way out beyond the people of the non-Christian religions. The sharks represent the dangers to our immortal souls and if a shark zeros in on a person, those with the best chance of being “saved” when Jesus heaves the life ring are those who are closest to the boat. Now that does mean that everyone else has a finite chance of being saved, but it becomes more difficult the further from the Barque of Peter they are swimming. It also means that even those swimming close up to the boat also still might not be saved, but the risk is lower. .

There is a big difference between what you are stating above and comparing a Protestant, who names the name of the Savior, in the same breath as those who reject Him as God, and deny the honor and majesty due Him as their Creator.

So, who’s “rejecting Him as God” in your statement above?

EDIT: I see now. It’s in reference to this:

[INDENT]Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames
And all us Catholics will agree with you. And this is why we Catholics pray for Muslims, Atheists, Protestants and others to come to The Catholic Church and received the fullness of Christ’s teaching, all His graces and join in the full communion of the One Holy Apostolic Church - the mystical body of Christ.

James

Yes, it is apparent that the verses posted would equally apply to Protestants as they would to Muslims and Atheists[/INDENT]

Yes, the verses you qouted do apply equally well to Protestants, Muslims, and everyone else, including so-called atheists AND CATHOLICS…

It seems in the emotional debates, offense is a one-way street.

What? This is a bit unclear to me. Thanks for explaining it.

EDIT: So, now I more clearly understand. In this regard putting Protestants in the same “bin” with Catholics and all other people is somehow offensive?

The comparison between Protestants and the aforementioned non-Christians. It’s more than a “slight.”

Please show me how that “compares” (negatively apparently) Protestants to ALL PEOPLE as regards ALL OF US reaching the Father only through the Son?

But, nothing makes what you said any more “palatable”, where you said, “Preach Christ and Him crucified. It seems some consider conversion to the Catholic Church as more imperative”, where you propose that it’s somehow a degradation of our task as Christians to suggest that a convert be given WHAT WE THINK is for their best benefit.

I understand that you think Catholics aren’t actually Christians, and do an inferior job instructing them in what being a Christian means. That is why, though your slight to Catholics is indeed a slight, it’s not unexpected in the least.

It’s just interesting that protestants come to a Catholic forum and try to bring doubt to those thinking of converting to Christianty as Catholics about the Christianity of Catholics.

[INDENT]Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames
And all us Catholics will agree with you. And this is why we Catholics pray for Muslims, Atheists, Protestants and others to come to The Catholic Church and received the fullness of Christ’s teaching, all His graces and join in the full communion of the One Holy Apostolic Church - the mystical body of Christ.

James

Yes, it is apparent that the verses posted would equally apply to Protestants as they would to Muslims and Atheists[/INDENT]

Yes, the verses you qouted do apply equally well to Protestants, Muslims, and everyone else, including so-called atheists AND CATHOLICS…

What? This is a bit unclear to me. Thanks for explaining it.

EDIT: So, now I more clearly understand. In this regard putting Protestants in the same “bin” with Catholics and all other people is somehow offensive?

I would never complain about being lumped in with Catholics. They are Christian. We should be praying for Muslims and atheists to convert to Christ, not any particular denomination.

However, the problem is how to know that we Muslims are really holding the faith of Abraham, we worship a god called Allah, although all the Muslims will tell you that its an Arabic translation of the name God, but honestly after researching more & more on the origin of that name, I’m afraid that we Muslims are worshipping the moon god and doing all pagans rituals from praying five times a day toward a black stone and ending with yearly pilgrimage around it, yet worst than that we have downgraded Jesus:heart: from Lord to no more than a normal messenger (even the least one of all messengers), and we contradicted all Jewish & Christians teachings and practices.

While you are considering us to end in God’s grace, we are considering you to end in God’s hell, therefore how all of us would be holding the faith of Abraham !!!