"What's important to us is getting this team to sustainable long-term success. If we were just concerned about winning now, I think this team could vie for the playoffs next year. But that might not be what's best long term."

Sounded like they'll hire the Coach first, and the amount of power they give him will be dependent on who he is. Basically, pray they don't get a coach that sucks with personnel (cough cough McDaniels).

"What's important to us is getting this team to sustainable long-term success. If we were just concerned about winning now, I think this team could vie for the playoffs next year. But that might not be what's best long term."

Hikohadon wrote:Sounded like they'll hire the Coach first, and the amount of power they give him will be dependent on who he is. Basically, pray they don't get a coach that sucks with personnel (cough cough McDaniels).

I have a feeling (based on absolutely nothing) that it will be Gruden.

"What's important to us is getting this team to sustainable long-term success. If we were just concerned about winning now, I think this team could vie for the playoffs next year. But that might not be what's best long term."

Translation:

Well, I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin' motherfucker, motherfucker!

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

motherscratcher wrote:What, exactly, has been half assed about the last couple rebuilds?

Mangini nuked it. Holmes renuked it.

I'm fuckin' done with nukings.

Ill clarify. It always felt half-assed to me because the guy at the top ultimately in charge of making the decisions was Lerner, who never seemed to have any clear direction for this team. Maybe he finally got it right when he essential ceeded all power to Walrus, but then Walrus half-assed it by keeping Mangini around when it was clear he wasnt on the same page with everyone else.

And does anyone honestly feel that Holgmen ever put his full fat ass into this job?

Last edited by Govbarney on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman

Hikohadon wrote:Sounded like they'll hire the Coach first, and the amount of power they give him will be dependent on who he is. Basically, pray they don't get a coach that sucks with personnel (cough cough McDaniels).

I have a feeling (based on absolutely nothing) that it will be Gruden.

At what point does it get released that Cowher is looking at homes in Strongsville?

Galley Boys are slop on top of a so-so burger and a bun you coulde get from a Covneninet food mart generic pack. They the Antoine Joubert of burgers; soft, sloppy, oozing grease and cheap sauce and extremely overrated by a biased fan base. Proof that if you throw enough cheap sauce shit on a burger you still can't overcome the lame burger. -JB

Loved every word of it. Biggest difference between these two and the past is quite simple. They have made the level of decisions that are required to be made previously. They have hired succesful people in the past and plan to again.

About McDaniels...what I heard was if they hire a HC they believe is a strong player personnel guy, they will look for a GM to augment those skill sets. If the HC does not show a strength for player personnel, they will look for a stronger GM. What is wrong with that? Sounds like the perfect plan to me.

Coach will not automatically have player personnel decisions, but will have control over the 53 and the 46 that dress. Again, correct, IMO.

Said there is a lot to build on. The question that leads to the "blow up" concern was "Can this team be in the playoffs next year?". Banner said if they wanted to build a team that could 100% make the playoffs next year and the future be damned he would be disappointed if they could not. But that is not what they will do. They will build on what they have and the result will be a better, more sustainable football organization.

I guess they can't see the forest for the trees.......we need a QB, at least one G, a veteran receiver, an offensive scheme for 2013 not 1986. A kicker, kick-off returner, 2 safeties, one corner, two LB's, and one DE.

Loved every word of it. Biggest difference between these two and the past is quite simple. They have made the level of decisions that are required to be made previously. They have hired succesful people in the past and plan to again.

About McDaniels...what I heard was if they hire a HC they believe is a strong player personnel guy, they will look for a GM to augment those skill sets. If the HC does not show a strength for player personnel, they will look for a stronger GM. What is wrong with that? Sounds like the perfect plan to me.

Coach will not automatically have player personnel decisions, but will have control over the 53 and the 46 that dress. Again, correct, IMO.

Said there is a lot to build on. The question that leads to the "blow up" concern was "Can this team be in the playoffs next year?". Banner said if they wanted to build a team that could 100% make the playoffs next year and the future be damned he would be disappointed if they could not. But that is not what they will do. They will build on what they have and the result will be a better, more sustainable football organization.

Honestly, I've been in that place for a few years now. I see Peeker's disgust and your detachment, and just nod. I am past bitterness- I have assumed it was just part of getting a bit older. Whereas I agonized over C Policy's idiotic futility, I just snort and roll my eyes at Holmgren's act. In retrospect, for me, I consider it progress.

I can say it feels right. Healthier: I don't get drunk much any more. I do enjoy my family more on the weekends. Oldest is in college & has her own schedule even when home (happened in a blink of an eye); those years of the kids being there to do things with are fleeting. So I feel really good about where I am with the Browns. Back burner.

I want to be informed, so I come here. But they need to earn my time and $.

"What's important to us is getting this team to sustainable long-term success. If we were just concerned about winning now, I think this team could vie for the playoffs next year. But that might not be what's best long term."

Translation:

...or, don't hold me accountable for the next year or two since we don't have the right pieces...

YahooFanChicago wrote:...or, don't hold me accountable for the next year or two since we don't have the right pieces...

I already hate that guy and his fucking pinchy face.

Yep. That part is very Holmgren-esque. Five year plans and what not.

I just don't get the concept of "in order to build it the right way, it will take us X amount of years". Can't you also make some moves to be good in the short term while you're building for the long term?

I think the only difference between what the new guys said today and what the old guys were saying is that the new group is smart enough and unbiased enough to know that we have a MFP (Major Fucking Problem) at the most important position on the field: quarterback.

Heckert's comments this morning were hysterical: "Only difference between Indy and us is they won the close games." No, they won 11 cause they have Andrew Luck. We won five because we have Brandolt McWeeden (credit to Peeker on Twitter for the moniker).

I think what they were saying without saying it today is that they will not be afraid to be aggressive once again at the QB position, even if it means using yet another high pick on one. Which would make it tougher theoretically to get over the hump and to get to 9-11 wins, but would also be in the better long term interest of the organization.

Ya gotta be well coached and ya gotta have a good QB. I think these guys know this, know we currently have neither, and what they said isn't too far off what I would have said if it was me up there taking over as CEO.

They're correctly prioritizing the coach over the GM. Gotta have the right coach. Find that dude ... and then figure what GM works best with him. Team has always done it backwards. Good coaches and quarterbacks make the Scott Piolis and the Jordy Nelsons of the world look like stars. Pioli was Mike Lombardi in KC. Jordy Nelson would be Darren Chiavirini on this Browns team.

I do like the fact thet appear to be retaining much of the player personnel staff that was assembeled by Heckert, who do 99% of the work and recs that lead to draft picks and FA signings. And they also have correctly punished Heckert with his job for so badly screwing up the RG3/Weeden DISASTER.

So far so good to me.

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

I place them on a bullshit fake bidding war the Rams pulled, thus fucking us over regardless.

Honestly, that did hurt though. I mean, the skins have a good head coach with a possibly promising good OC, a decent ground game, and a franchise QB. And are in the playoffs.

The browns got stuck with Pat fucking Shurmer and an offense so fucking old it looks like it should have been written in hieroglyphs.

You can't continue to jam a round peg in a square stupid ass hole, which is exactly what they did tried to do with Weeds and the bullshit west coast offense. Trust me, that more than anything in the world cost us games. Fucking Peyton Manning would look like absolute dogshit if handcuffed to this piece of shit offense.

Now honestly? I don't care where they go with the position now. I don't care what happens with Brandon Weeden, whether they stick with him or not. If Saban/Gruden/Cowher/McDaniels/Arians/Kelly decide they don't want him and want to bring in their own guy? Then whatever. Just make it work, and win us some ballgames.

That needs to be goal number 1. Put a winner on the field, no more rebuilding, no more 5 year plans, no more "battling". A winner. A playoff team. NO EXCUSES. You have some talent on this roster, spend money, get the right people involved and do whatever it takes.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

swerb wrote:I think the only difference between what the new guys said today and what the old guys were saying is that the new group is smart enough and unbiased enough to know that we have a MFP (Major Fucking Problem) at the most important position on the field: quarterback.

Untrue. First thing Heckgren did when they got in was identify that Quinn and DA sucked and shipped them to Siberia.

Then they picked "their" guys, which have so far been no better than Quinn and DA (worse in Colt's case).

So if Banner and Haslam come in and say "Holy shit! We have no QB!", they are EXACTLY the same as every regime before them.

If they want to be different, actually solve the Major Fucking Problem.

I place them on a bullshit fake bidding war the Rams pulled, thus fucking us over regardless.

Honestly, that did hurt though. I mean, the skins have a good head coach with a possibly promising good OC, a decent ground game, and a franchise QB. And are in the playoffs.

The browns got stuck with Pat fucking Shurmer and an offense so fucking old it looks like it should have been written in hieroglyphs.

You can't continue to jam a round peg in a square stupid ass hole, which is exactly what they did tried to do with Weeds and the bullshit west coast offense. Trust me, that more than anything in the world cost us games. Fucking Peyton Manning would look like absolute dogshit if handcuffed to this piece of shit offense.

Now honestly? I don't care where they go with the position now. I don't care what happens with Brandon Weeden, whether they stick with him or not. If Saban/Gruden/Cowher/McDaniels/Arians/Kelly decide they don't want him and want to bring in their own guy? Then whatever. Just make it work, and win us some ballgames.

That needs to be goal number 1. Put a winner on the field, no more rebuilding, no more 5 year plans, no more "battling". A winner. A playoff team. NO EXCUSES. You have some talent on this roster, spend money, get the right people involved and do whatever it takes.

This probably has merit, but, really, at this point, it's meaningless.

Holmgren is gone. Heckert is gone. Shurmur is gone. RG3 is in Washington.

Hikohadon wrote:The ship has sailed and those who are to blame/not to blame are gone.

Clean slate. So why all the pessimism? Seems like people are visiting the sins of the past upon the new regime without waiting to see what develops. We've not had a complete housecleaning of this order since 1999, so there really is no precedent. All the team's recent history is, once and for all, deemed immaterial. Could be good, could be bad—but we don't really know, do we?

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how it all plays out. Hell, this off-season could be more entertaining than any of the past 14 regular seasons.

Holmgren is gone. Heckert is gone. Shurmur is gone. RG3 is in Washington.

The ship has sailed and those who are to blame/not to blame are gone.

pretty much. all of those involved are gone. Whether or not we're discussing what QB we drafted this year, I don't care about it. I care about the end result.

This isn't the old Lerner Browns anymore, and we're not playing against a stacked deck anymore.

Perhaps it's fitting that this all took place on New Years ever?

If I'm Haslam/Banner, I'm doing all I can to change this culture and everything associated with the past.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

I am hesitant to be emotional because most of us drank the Holmgren Koolaid. To me, the biggest difference this time is an OWGARA (Owner who gives a rat's butt). At least, that is what I hope.Will be glad to say goodbye to the WCO.

"The nose of the bulldog has been slanted backwards so that he can breathe without letting go." -- Winston Churchill

swerb wrote:I think the only difference between what the new guys said today and what the old guys were saying is that the new group is smart enough and unbiased enough to know that we have a MFP (Major Fucking Problem) at the most important position on the field: quarterback.

Heckert's comments this morning were hysterical: "Only difference between Indy and us is they won the close games." No, they won 11 cause they have Andrew Luck. We won five because we have Brandolt McWeeden (credit to Peeker on Twitter for the moniker).

I think what they were saying without saying it today is that they will not be afraid to be aggressive once again at the QB position, even if it means using yet another high pick on one. Which would make it tougher theoretically to get over the hump and to get to 9-11 wins, but would also be in the better long term interest of the organization.

Ya gotta be well coached and ya gotta have a good QB. I think these guys know this, know we currently have neither, and what they said isn't too far off what I would have said if it was me up there taking over as CEO.

They're correctly prioritizing the coach over the GM. Gotta have the right coach. Find that dude ... and then figure what GM works best with him. Team has always done it backwards. Good coaches and quarterbacks make the Scott Piolis and the Jordy Nelsons of the world look like stars. Pioli was Mike Lombardi in KC. Jordy Nelson would be Darren Chiavirini on this Browns team.

I do like the fact thet appear to be retaining much of the player personnel staff that was assembeled by Heckert, who do 99% of the work and recs that lead to draft picks and FA signings. And they also have correctly punished Heckert with his job for so badly screwing up the RG3/Weeden DISASTER.

So far so good to me.

I think the presser today differed in some previous ones in the following ways;

1. As Swerb alludes to about the coach/GM deal. This is the first time in quite awhile the coach/GM combo does not involve a patsy on one side or the other. Mentioned this several times, but a GM who is afraid of the coach, or a coach who is afraid of the GM is bad business in the NFL. You have no checks and balances. These guys understand this. You want them to work together, but not be afraid to MF each other behind closed doors. It's how good shit gets done.

2. Mike Holmgren talked down to us the entire time...his entire career here as a matter of fact. There was more "yeah yeah's" as if he's got everything under control to anyone who dare ask what the future holds.

3. This is the first time in several of these where the ORGANIZATION seems to have a plan and goal, instead of an individual.

Not that this guarantees anything. I do like what many people I respect have to say about how Haslam handles people and matters, so I'm happy he'll take his shot at the NFL here.

No talking people out of being pessimistic, hell, it's probably wise. But I will say thin, getting out from under Lerner....it can't get any worse from a NFL front office standpoint.

Hikohadon wrote:The ship has sailed and those who are to blame/not to blame are gone.

Clean slate. So why all the pessimism? Seems like people are visiting the sins of the past upon the new regime without waiting to see what develops. We've not had a complete housecleaning of this order since 1999, so there really is no precedent. All the team's recent history is, once and for all, deemed immaterial. Could be good, could be bad—but we don't really know, do we?

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how it all plays out. Hell, this off-season could be more entertaining than any of the past 14 regular seasons.

They pay for their predecessor's mistakes because it feels to me that they are repeating (or about to repeat) them.

They might not have hired a college coach and given him almost full control, but Carmen Policy did.

They might not have hired a guy that completely changed the defensive scheme (and thereby necessitated at least a 2 year overhaul), but John Collins and Mike Holmgren did.

It's almost like anything they do has been done here before - and failed here before.

When they do the one thing no other regime has done - namely, win - then they'll be doing something different. Until then, they're Just Another Regime.

leadpipe wrote:I think the presser today differed in some previous ones in the following ways;

1. As Swerb alludes to about the coach/GM deal. This is the first time in quite awhile the coach/GM combo does not involve a patsy on one side or the other. Mentioned this several times, but a GM who is afraid of the coach, or a coach who is afraid of the GM is bad business in the NFL. You have no checks and balances. These guys understand this. You want them to work together, but not be afraid to MF each other behind closed doors. It's how good shit gets done.

That's not what I took away at all. When it seems they are willing to give a coach a ton of power to entice him to come here, that would by definition make the GM that coach's bitch.

If Nick Saban comes here then Nick Saban has no checks and balances. Nick Saban will do what Nick Saban wants to do.

Again, I've heard nothing yet that convinces me that this regime will be any different than some of the past. Nothing new at all, except maybe the fact that Haslam is way more invested than Lerner. Maybe that will be enough. But if he's handing the keys over to a President to run things (this time Banner instead of Holmgren), not sure how that's different either.

About the only way you're going to lure elite candidate to this trainwreck of a team is giving them a lot of say within the organization.

I hate Merrill Hoge and find him a tool, but he made a good point last night, this is not an attractive job. You're going to have to try to dress this up as much as possible as being something more than absolute dumpster fire.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

Triple-S wrote:About the only way you're going to lure elite candidate to this trainwreck of a team is giving them a lot of say within the organization.

Big problem. Chances are, they'll have to offer "total roster control" (or an equivalent power) to lure a top-notch head coach to Cleveburg. Which automatically gives the eventual GM hire second-class-citizen status, answering to BOTH the head coach and Banner. What kind of a GM do you think we'll get with that ungodly set-up? The incumbent Heckert certainly wouldn't settle for it, or anything close to it.

You hire from the top of the organization down--owner, CEO, president, VPs, middle management, foremen, line workers. It's called "chain of command," and it's worked in the military and private business for centuries.

leadpipe wrote:I think the presser today differed in some previous ones in the following ways;

1. As Swerb alludes to about the coach/GM deal. This is the first time in quite awhile the coach/GM combo does not involve a patsy on one side or the other. Mentioned this several times, but a GM who is afraid of the coach, or a coach who is afraid of the GM is bad business in the NFL. You have no checks and balances. These guys understand this. You want them to work together, but not be afraid to MF each other behind closed doors. It's how good shit gets done.

That's not what I took away at all. When it seems they are willing to give a coach a ton of power to entice him to come here, that would by definition make the GM that coach's bitch.

If Nick Saban comes here then Nick Saban has no checks and balances. Nick Saban will do what Nick Saban wants to do.

Again, I've heard nothing yet that convinces me that this regime will be any different than some of the past. Nothing new at all, except maybe the fact that Haslam is way more invested than Lerner. Maybe that will be enough. But if he's handing the keys over to a President to run things (this time Banner instead of Holmgren), not sure how that's different either.

C'mon Hiko, if he didn't hand the keys over you'd be yelling Jerry Jones.

HUGE difference between throwing the keys to someone you barely know and running to the Hamptons, and handing them over to someone you've dealt with in the past, and overseeing things as a whole.

And if they hire a coach and give him total control that's a big problem. Don't see that happening, but again, that'll all play out.

You're sick of the bullshit, I get it. But Christ on a pony, Randy Lerner was about as poor an owner as there was in sports. No interest, no knowledge...got his status on the shoulders of Dad....I mean Christ, whether Haslam works out or he doesn't, on the ownership issue alone there will be improvement.

leadpipe wrote:I think the presser today differed in some previous ones in the following ways;

1. As Swerb alludes to about the coach/GM deal. This is the first time in quite awhile the coach/GM combo does not involve a patsy on one side or the other. Mentioned this several times, but a GM who is afraid of the coach, or a coach who is afraid of the GM is bad business in the NFL. You have no checks and balances. These guys understand this. You want them to work together, but not be afraid to MF each other behind closed doors. It's how good shit gets done.

That's not what I took away at all. When it seems they are willing to give a coach a ton of power to entice him to come here, that would by definition make the GM that coach's bitch.

If Nick Saban comes here then Nick Saban has no checks and balances. Nick Saban will do what Nick Saban wants to do.

Again, I've heard nothing yet that convinces me that this regime will be any different than some of the past. Nothing new at all, except maybe the fact that Haslam is way more invested than Lerner. Maybe that will be enough. But if he's handing the keys over to a President to run things (this time Banner instead of Holmgren), not sure how that's different either.

C'mon Hiko, if he didn't hand the keys over you'd be yelling Jerry Jones.

HUGE difference between throwing the keys to someone you barely know and running to the Hamptons, and handing them over to someone you've dealt with in the past, and overseeing things as a whole.

And if they hire a coach and give him total control that's a big problem. Don't see that happening, but again, that'll all play out.

You're sick of the bullshit, I get it. But Christ on a pony, Randy Lerner was about as poor an owner as there was in sports. No interest, no knowledge...got his status on the shoulders of Dad....I mean Christ, whether Haslam works out or he doesn't, on the ownership issue alone there will be improvement.

It's not him handing the keys to a President I mind, it's the one he's handing them to.

It is unfair to judge these guys until they make some moves, just feel the same about those moves as I do when Colt drops back to pass - prob not gonna like what happens here.

Triple-S wrote:About the only way you're going to lure elite candidate to this trainwreck of a team is giving them a lot of say within the organization.

I hate Merrill Hoge and find him a tool, but he made a good point last night, this is not an attractive job. You're going to have to try to dress this up as much as possible as being something more than absolute dumpster fire.

Hoge had waaaay to many concussions back in the day. He's just playing the role his producers tell him to play - the doosh.

Anyway, why is this not an attractive job? As cynical as I am, I actually think HC Cleveland Browns is one of The best openings. The "no QB" is an obvious detrement, but exactly how is the Browns' job worse than Buffalo or KC or 'Zona. Do you want to go to Philly and follow Andy Reid and sort out the Vick/Foles mess? I can see San Diego and maybe the Bears as better spots, but only maybe due to the QBs, although both are talented both are rather diva-ish.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

Triple-S wrote:About the only way you're going to lure elite candidate to this trainwreck of a team is giving them a lot of say within the organization.

I hate Merrill Hoge and find him a tool, but he made a good point last night, this is not an attractive job. You're going to have to try to dress this up as much as possible as being something more than absolute dumpster fire.

Hoge had waaaay to many concussions back in the day. He's just playing the role his producers tell him to play - the doosh.

Anyway, why is this not an attractive job? As cynical as I am, I actually think HC Cleveland Browns is one of The best openings. The "no QB" is an obvious detrement, but exactly how is the Browns' job worse than Buffalo or KC or 'Zona. Do you want to go to Philly and follow Andy Reid and sort out the Vick/Foles mess? I can see San Diego and maybe the Bears as better spots, but only maybe due to the QBs, although both are talented both are rather diva-ish.

I am going to point out, again, that this is new ownership. A lot of people keep filtering this regime change under the paramaters of the old ownership, which went into every regime change with the motto: "Take this team off my hands and fix it. For the LOVE OF GOD PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T make me have to make decisions, or show any interest in this organization other than what Mike Trivassano requires for his show to sound like an "insider."

Haslem is an active, engaged, owner. Unlike previous regimes, there will be oversight and accountability. This is why another nuking isn't such a bad thing. They have a plan, and they intend to put people in who fit that plan.

Haslem was very specific in his answers, and he knows what he wants. He's not going to be like Jammies and just hire the first guy he interviews because, THANK GOD, someone consented to the interview so I love him and I can go back to my soccer team in England and all this mess will go away!!! (I thought about stringing those words together, but realized it would be impossible to read)

To go over the Randy regimes again:Savage/Crennel: Incompetent Boobs who had to completely suck to the point Randy was forced to take action.

Mangini: Managed to be even worse in nine games to the point, again, he made Randy do something.

Holmgren: Had no plan other than to give Bob LaMonte clients jobs. Randy was too busy selling the team to notice.

If I'm wrong about the new ownership, then pray to whatever god you believe in the Mayans were off by a year or two.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.