(24-01-2014 03:22 PM)Alla Wrote: One of the reasons why mortals can not be in the presence of God is because they are fallen. We are NOT worthy now to see God.

This thought here is an excellent example of one of my main points, especially the part in bold. When Christians, and Mormons in particular, are asked to explain an inconsistency, they fall upon the well tested and extremely effective method of shaming the questioner. You can't understand things which are above your worthiness, you lowly worm you. Go back to slithering on your belly.

I think it speaks to the deep psychological effects of religious indoctrination that we are to witness this rhetoric regurgitated in Alla's statements. It does not come from her, or me, rather it is fundamental to our once shared religion. I am not all that sure that she is even aware of this. I certainly wasn't when I was a believer.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

(24-01-2014 07:01 PM)anidominus Wrote: So in other words. I have no reason to believe in any of those other gods because.... (either)

1) They have not provided their name.
2) They have not claimed to be God.
3) They have not made any claims regarding their power.
3) They have not demonstrated their power in such a way that they are still relevant.
4) They have not provided any instruction through any means regarding the purpose and plans of this existence.

I'm fairly certain you guys can find a god that can compete with Yahweh. Go ahead. Use those brains.

Yahweh - that is one cool name. lol

I have to say, I don't really understand your line of reasoning here. Are you telling me that all I have to do in order to conscript your belief in a god is to provide you with a name, claims of power and demonstrations thereof, and a set of plans? Is any of this really worthy of captivating one's attention, let alone convincing one to believe? Isn't it at least possible that if I were to do this that I might be making it all up?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

(24-01-2014 03:22 PM)Alla Wrote: One of the reasons why mortals can not be in the presence of God is because they are fallen. We are NOT worthy now to see God.

This thought here is an excellent example of one of my main points, especially the part in bold. When Christians, and Mormons in particular, are asked to explain an inconsistency, they fall upon the well tested and extremely effective method of shaming the questioner. You can't understand things which are above your worthiness, you lowly worm you. Go back to slithering on your belly.

I think it speaks to the deep psychological effects of religious indoctrination that we are to witness this rhetoric regurgitated in Alla's statements. It does not come from her, or me, rather it is fundamental to our once shared religion. I am not all that sure that she is even aware of this. I certainly wasn't when I was a believer.

Correct Dark Phoenix
I can share this cognitive dissonance previously being an orthodox theist for over a decade. When religious I recall repeating the same thing - others are just not worthy to "get it" and see the religious truth's (eg due to their sins or unworthiness) - and it is believed with sincerity.

Whilst a dense book - the best I found is Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason (Cornell Studies in the Philosophy of Religion) John L. Schellenberg

Builds a strong case for a sincerely rational seeker who does not find evidence for God compelling.

This tactic is also a successful apologetic move to create an ad hominem attack on the opponent that they are unworthy when combined by the belief being
unfalsifiable. This is classic rhetoric 101. Alla are you aware of this ?

Not unique to some theism's or especially Christianity but also irrational political regimes or fringe pseudosciences. Eg in Marxist indoctrinations is the proletariat is making a case for communism to someone and they don't get it then they proletariat can accuse them of being petite bourgeoisie (the equivalent in Christianity of unworthy fallen evil) and the petite bourgeoisie will then be persecuted or must "convert".
Same with aspects of Freudian psychoanalysis - if the analyst accuses you having Oedipus complex then you cannot argue back (all discussion ends) because by definition you are repressed and cannot see they manifestation of the Oedipus complex - how can such a theory be falsified ? It is also circular.

Christianity works in much the same way. Either you have "Grace to get it and believe in Jesus" or your unworthy fallen scum who doesn't get it. Any arguments against Christianity are immediately silenced by accusing the antagonist of being fallen, sinning and unworthy. Quite arrogant really and ad hominem - refusing to engage in genuine evidence based reasoning and potential falsification of ones beliefs.

(24-01-2014 03:35 PM)anidominus Wrote: If you want to know about the authors of the bible go look in it.

You guys are not doing really well on those claims. Yahweh is making some bold claims, multiple. Do the prophets of these other gods make such claims? Anyone can make a claim so where are they? Are they too chicken $#!^ to boast about their god?

Yahweh claims to have flooded the world in the Noach flood - a bold claim.
This claim is falsifiable - making it even bolder !!!

...and the claim has been completely falsified with copious amounts of evidence from biology, archaeology, ecology, geology and over 11,000years of continuous civilizations which bypass the flood period without being effected (eg neolithic cultures around modern day China & Indus valley - an unbroken record - not what would be expected had the bible been true.)

(24-01-2014 07:01 PM)anidominus Wrote: I'm fairly certain you guys can find a god that can compete with Yahweh. Go ahead. Use those brains.

I'm fairly certain you can find some proof that YHWH exists that doesn't require you to assume he exists in the first place. Go ahead. Use those brains.

In all seriousness, Anidominus: why do you think that it's compelling argument that the stories about YHWH are so much cooler than those of the other gods? There's still nothing indicating that it's anything other than mythology.

(23-01-2014 01:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote: No, but it does beg the question why it's written in one of the gospels that Jesus performed the miracles (and many others not written down) so that others would believe.

One wonders why, supposedly, 2,000 years ago, God was performing verifiable miracles in a small corner of the world to gain followers, but that he then stopped.

It's not so much a matter of whether or not we can disprove God with science; it's more a matter why he isn't readily apparent. The whole notion of faith being super important is an ad hoc justification to explain the fact that people can't actually see this super-important being... despite him going way out of his way to prove his own existence to a few people two thousand years ago.

This is great! The logical conclusion is that it's all just a con. The whole "thou shalt not tempt your god" is a classic "how to kill an skepticism in one shot" tactic. Bravo, christianity, bravo.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."