Messages - UnbiasedObserver

Good post. I actually do agree with alot of the stuff you were saying. Maybe my post came across wrong...but taxman seemed to indicate that FSU would have trouble keeping up with private school degree mills like Stetson and Miami....and there really isn't even a comparison. With regard to UF, I was really just trying to illustrate that the decision to attend FSU or UF wasn't so Black and White as he was making it out to be. Although I prefer FSU over UF (again, I'm biased because I made the FSU-over-UF decision). I'm kinda busy this evening, and don't have alot of time to pull all of the stats you asked for....but here's one of them (the stat referring to bar passage rate). in the last 4 years, FSU has been number one in bar passage 66% of the time:

Yeah, you were addressing another's post, and I haven't looked at this thread in a LONG time, so I might've misunderstood you. If I did, I apologize. You also make some good points, and again, FSU is a good school, that is often a better choice for many people, depending on their own life circumstances and goals.

As for the Bar Exam results...I tend to discount February results, as the people who take the Feb. bar tend to be those who failed the first time, and the number of law students taking them from Florida schools is very low. Still, FSU seems to be doing VERY well on the July exams--congrats on that! However, as stated in my previous post, I don't think it's a big deal, as long as a substantial majority of a school's graduates pass the bar. I know I didn't concern myself with bar passage rates when looking at law schools, except to make sure most people passed the bar!

With all due respect, I have some reservations about much of what you posted. I'll address that below. (Before I begin that, though, in the interest of full disclosure I'm a UF Law student. Also, I think FSU is a fine school, and have nothing against their school. However, I feel that I should address these statements made, so that someone considering the schools have both sides presented.)

That's a VERY limited analysis taxguy. Hopefully you'll learn to make distinctions once you finish law school. Unfortunately, my analysis will be biased because I chose FSU over UF (was offered admission into both). But, here are some things you have completely ignored in why one would ever choose UF over FSU, and things that I considered when choosing to attend FSU Law: (1) FSU dominates UF in location for law. At FSU, you are in the state capital of Florida, on the doorstep of Florida Legislature and the Supreme Court of Florida, literally walking distance from both. UF has NOTHING in terms of law backdrop, outside of the school itself, to offer a student.

You really need to more precisely define "location for law," but I think you're saying that there are more opportunities for externships, and eventually jobs, in Tallahassee. I don't think any rational person would dispute that. However, there ARE options in Gainesville, such as federal judges, state attorneys offices, etc. Because UF is highly touted in the state, nearly every governmental agency here has interns, and often many of them, outside the Gainesville area, from southern Florida to the Panhandle. Moreover, UF places very well in places such as the Florida Supreme Court, among other high-profile internships, often better than FSU. (I have an example of this, but because I would like to somewhat protect my anonymity, I shall refrain from disclosing at this time.)

But keep in mind that I'm conceding that FSU is better for government opportunities--it's hard for you to argue that it's better for private-firm jobs. While it's true that in Gainesville there are very few "good" private firm jobs, UF's name carries better in the state. It doesn't matter what the reason is--what matters is that the firms like the UF "brand."

(2) Faculty is FAR SUPERIOR. Look at the stats and you'll see a marked discrepency in citations and output from the professors at both Universities, HEAVILY skewed in FSU's favor. Here's just ONE example of why UF can't compete with FSU in terms of faculty: I took Florida Constitutional Law with a Florida Supreme Court Justice, Ricky Polston. WHAT AN AMAZING opportunity... you can't say that you'll ever have a similar experience at UF.

This might be true, but I don't think it's as clear as you think. For example, former Chief Justice Overton teaches a seminar on the Florida Supreme Court. Professor Wolf is the editor of the premier treatise on Property, Powell on Property. Professor Mills was a former Speaker of the House for Florida.

FSU has GREAT faculty, such as Ehrhardt (who is THE premier expert on evidence in Florida), don't get me wrong. But you seem to know only one side of the equation. UF has great faculty too, and places better in the state. Since both have great faculty, and one places better, why not go to the better school (in terms of job opportunities)?

(4) FSU routinely has a higher bar passage rate than UF (and among the highest in the state on average).

First, link to this? (I'm curious to see this. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if you're right.) Second, very few law schools in the top 100 law schools teach to prepare us for the bar exam, so this doesn't say much. (I'll skip the issue of whether law schools should teach us to prepare us better for the bar exam.

(6) FSU is premised on helping students, making life a little easier through your experience at the school. UF is premised on coldness and an "every man for themself" attitude. Very cut throat.

This is certainly a statement you can't substantiate. As someone who works on the law school campus, it's really very laid-back. Yes, you have your competitive people, but I was shocked how calm and nice most people are.

(7) FSU is the most selective school in the state (i.e. they take less % of incoming 1Ls per number of applicants than ANY of the schools in Florida.

That means little in Florida, as no school in Florida takes people with "elite" credentials. For example, a school could accept only 1% of applicants--and they could be the "cream of the crop" by having a median LSAT of a 151 and a 3.0 GPA.

Also, how close are the acceptance rates? If they're close, it's also not a big deal.

( FSU has very small classes and has the lowest teacher-to-student ratio in the state. UF has GIGANTIC classes and GIGANTIC 1L ADMISSIONS, as do Stetson and Miami (both are very indiscriminate about who they take, with an incoming class at roughly 500 students per school compared to a number roughly half that by FSU).

Most classes really aren't too large here once you get past your first year of law school. Also, incoming classes are "only" 300 now instead of 400, which will drop class size.

So while you might be right that UF, Stetson, and Miami have more course offerings I think you get the most bang for your buck at FSU for the reasons I just mentioned (I honestly think a person would have to have slight brain damage to choose Stetson or Miami over FSU).

I think FSU is a great school, and each person must decide for him/herself whether they should go to UF, FSU, or somewhere else. Hopefully this will allow people to see both sides.

Things are going pretty well. Doing some nice fed. gov't work this summer and trying to find a job for next year. I don't mean to sound like a depressed bears, but it's amazing how different this profession is today when compared to the time when we were all applying to schools 3 years ago.

Wow, I actually recognize some people after coming back on here! I hope all of you are doing well. And I agree; it's really a shame how vastly different the state of the legal economy is today.

Actually, on second thought, you're right. hahaha I intended to post a question to Ninja asking how Ninja was doing, and I guess I forgot to do so after my other response to him. So when I looked at the question...I thought it was directed to me. That's rather funny, and I'm glad you caught that!

Everything's cool, I've just been out and about leading the hustla lifestyle as of late. I'm still a 2L for another month. I have a little something lined up for summer, but nothing spectacular at the moment, probably just doing part time work and part time school.

And how are things in your neck of the woods?

I'm glad that all goes well for you.

Things are going very well for me actually. I'm lucky to have a very solid opportunity for this summer, especially with the state of the economy. It's brutal out there, even for students with top-notch grades and LR.

Yes, 10K to FSU and nothing yet from UF, but I doubt I'll get anything, I hear they're pretty tight with money. I'm in state also, so either would be pretty cheap. I've visited both, liked the atmosphere better at FSU because the students seemed happier. The library at UF is really nice though. I'm definitely leaning towards FSU since I started this thread...

With the 8K from UF, you're basically looking at about $10K in tuition, right?

What if you're not at the top 40% at Stetson? You'll be paying $45K a year (tuition plus living expenses) and you'll end up with a Stetson degree. What if you don't have 3.2 at UF? You'll still left with in-state tuition AND a UF degree.

If I were you, I'll stick with UF. By the way, UF is not that far from Tampa and it dominates the Tampa market, just like Stetson, if not more, and any other market in Florida, which cannot be said about Stetson.