Students Who Caught Gym Teacher Stealing Money From Lockers May Get Punished

from the that-doesn't-seem-right... dept

A few years back, we had a story about some students using a mobile phone camera to record a teacher's outburst on film. Rather than disciplining the teacher who appeared way out of line, and who had pulled a chair out from under a student, the school disciplined the students for filming the teacher. In what may be a similar situation, reader Pickle Monger alerts us to the story of some students who got upset about money regularly disappearing from their lockers. After complaining to school officials and getting no help at all, they set up a mobile phone camera to record what happened to the lockers... and actually caught their gym teacher breaking into the lockers to steal the students' money.

So how is the school reacting? Celebrating the ingenuity and the sleuthing skills of the kids in catching a bad teacher stealing money from students? Nope:

A school spokesman said it's possible the student who recorded the cell phone video could get in trouble as well because students are not supposed to use their phones during the day.

School officials said they are not allowed to record video in locker rooms because of privacy.

Now, obviously the situation is a little more complicated due to the privacy issues in a locker room, but there's no indication that there were any privacy problems here at all. The whole purpose was to catch the thief that the school wouldn't catch. Punishing students for breaking those rules, while ignoring the reasons why they did it, teaches a really bad lesson to students.

Now wait a minute...

Just because there are a few nut-jobs out there, as well as some idiots at the admin level doesn't brand the whole profession as defunct! We have shifty co-workers and lousy bosses just like any other profession, and its a little unfair to pick out the few outrageous examples of how things can go wrong as representative of teaching as a whole.

I have been teaching for 7 years now and I can guarantee you in my (normal) district that guy would be fired ASAP, and the union would not touch him with a 10' pole! This has probably happened numerous times around the country, but rightfully-fired bad teacher is not nearly as interesting a headline...

Anyone know a good lawyer.

It seems to me that if these kids are punished, then they should file suit against the school board and all involved for not prosecuting the teacher for theft. I believe it would be dereliction of duty, malpractice, and malfeasance. This teacher should loose his teaching license, and never allowed in a school again. Any administrators involved should also loose there jobs for not acting on this matter. It seems we are after the teacher when sex is involved, what is the difference when they are stealing from the kids locker.

Power corrupts.
Bureaucrats care more about protecting their own than administering justice.
A healthy disrespect for authority figures.

Kids who go through childhood sheltered from reality get a real shock when they enter their careers and find out how awful people are. The people who lie, cheat, and bribe get what they want, while the honest ones are left with nothing.

Got Bad School Personnel

Sue them! The school board hates nothing more than a lawsuit. We did it because our son's math teacher, while being competent at math, could not speak English very well. My son's math grade plummeted because he couldn't understand her! When we talked to the school officials about it they would not move him or replace the teacher. So we sued and the school district settled out of court and the teacher moved to another school where people understood her language better.
The mighty United States justice system. $75.00 for filing fees and you have leverage. People are so afraid of getting screwed in the United States Justice System that they rush to settle out of court. Voila! Problem solved. But that is another article isn't it?

This is a tricky one.

At first, I immediately jumped to the students' defense. However, the more I think about it, they broke a rule to catch a criminal. In essence, they are a small scale renegade.

Letting the kids off would show it's okay to break the rules to catch a criminal. Although, punishing them could make them less likely to blow the whistle (so to speak).

I keep thinking about the US wiretapping in all this: if the illegal wiretapping caught an actual criminal, would people still be against it? Or should that criminal go free cause the wiretapping was illegal? Hard choices! Stupid gray areas.

Re: home schooling

Only the uber-religious homeschoolers are weird. They account for just over half of American homeschoolers, and are way more prominent in the media, so every one thinks of them when they hear the word 'homeschool'.

Which is sad for the perfectly normal families that choose to homeschool because of the appalling educational choices offered locally.

Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

Possibility? The rule is no recording in the locker room. It's not "no recording in the locker room - sometimes" or "recording allowed so far as you don't think your spoiling anyone's privacy". It's no recording in the locker room, ever.
What the kid's are learning is consistency and equal treatment of the rules and accepting the consequences of their actions. They should be seeing it in two ways; they get punished and the teacher gets let go.

They should also be learning that sometimes doing the right thing doesn't mean getting a reward.

This is definitely a case where the school should be sued. School rules are arbitrary and often unfair because the school is effectively a dictatorship, though usually a benevolent one. If the students have footage of a teacher committing a crime, they can turn it over to the police and sue the school for not meeting their duty of care.
Any large organization will not give any weight to peoples' rights if the people fail to use them - it's a sad reality of the world that you have to demonstrate your power against them (i.e. sue them) in order to get some basic respect.

what a bunch of crap!

If I was the students I would of packed up the video, and taken it straight to the local police department, and tell them you want to press charges against the teacher. Then hire a lawyer(s) for yourself to fight the school system for doing NOTHING. If the school wants to play hardball, then play hardball.

Yes the school could say the student went against rules, but so did the teacher! The students in my opinion had every right to protect their stuff, and cash. No school system has the right to make a student more vulnerable. If they fail the students, then the students have every right to step up.

Talk about your average low-life. If I were that guy I'd have removed all the mirrors in my house; I wouldn't be able to look at my self. And if I were dating, I don't see how I could keep a date; they'd find out from the media that I was a petty thief of children.

Re: Got Bad School Personnel

screw the school board....

...call the cops. The teacher stole personal property, and it's on tape. End of discussion. I have cop friends and cops in the family. They all say the school board/district has nothing to do with the situation, other than deciding if they want to apply their own punishment on top of the criminal proceedings. As for the privacy issue, I think one can safely assume the teacher did the stealing why NOBODY WAS IN THE LOCKERROOM. So how has anyone's privacy been breached? And I agree with some of the other comments: if the school wants to play hardball regarding the use of the phone, fine. The kids and their parents should play hardball, too. Sue: the school administrator(s), the school board, the school district and the thieving jackass that caused the whole thing. If I were a local lawyer, I'd take that case in a minute, for a low contingency. Then the parents wouldn't be out a dime. Trust me, the school will almost certainly back down about punishing the kids if faced with thousands and thousands of dollars in legal expenses and possible judgments.

Privacy

Nothing in the article says the student would be punished because of privacy issues. It says the school could not do what the students did because of privacy issues. The student might be punished because he violated a rule against using your cell phone during the day.

Re: what a bunch of crap!

Re:

Tell that to our government!!!!! They routinely break laws in order to 'catch' somebody at something.

Here in NY and NJ, they routinely set up traffic stops to catch people drinking, speeding what ever. I always get pulled over and searched. I don't drink, I drive fairly normal, so you figure out why I get stopped. I bet you if you think hard enough you'll get it. But that's OK it only goes against the constitution and bill of rights.

the end doesn't justify the means!! yeah right! it depends on which end and whos means!!!

Re: Re: Re:

Re: Now wait a minute...

I live in the infamous LAUSD school district (Los Angeles Unified School District). You incompetent union-loving, Kool-Aid drinking shills will get your hands on my children over my dead body. Over my dead body.

Re: This is a tricky one.

First, a rule is not a law. Second, this is like the LAW that says you can't video a police officer in public, doing his duty, like bating up an innocent person. There is an old adage that rules are meant to be broken. That said, sometimes laws need to be broken too as in civil disobedience. The kids went through the correct channels first and did not receive any support. RULES, set by the people who are supposed to deal with these situations the stop you from doing it when they don't are OK to break in my book.

Re: This is a tricky one.

If they had used a video camera that was *not* a cellphone, the students wouldn't be busted for using a cellphone during the day. They might still have privacy problems, but, I'm sure the camera was supposed to be observing the time when nobody was supposed to be in the locker room.

Double Standard

I do agree with the school's position to punish the students however, the teacher should be fired and criminal charges brought against him. Both are wrong and should be punished accordingly. The right thing would be to put the camera inside the locker which negates the privacy laws or they could have contacted the police.

I would tell the kids to go right to the police and have the teacher arrested now that they have proof. If the school is not going to do anything about it, force the issue. And if the police refuse then go to the DA and then the newspapers. Make a big public stink out of it.

Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

Of course, the students should have loaded dye packs into their wallets instead.

I can just imagine what might have happened if they had planted one of those exploding dye packs in a locker. The police would have classified it as a "terrorist bombing event" and closed down the whole school and the feds would have hauled off the students involved to some federal "facility". A little water-boarding then could probably get them to confess to being "terrorists". And of course it would be the Internet that would then be blamed for turning what used to be "good kids" into bomb planting "terrorists".

See!!!

This is what happens when the government has to cut budgets... they ALWAYS target education first. Not only are the students getting screwed with a sub par education now they have to deal with underpaid/underskilled teachers and faculty who are total BS!

Reality

The kids should probably get a wag of the finger and the coach should be prosecuted. Anything beyond that is getting a bit extreme, but, just in case you missed this, school boards are EXTREMELY hard to successfully sue, due to their sovereign immunity. As long as their attorney had anything like a spine, it would be hard to collect much beyond an apology from the schools in this case, since they may basically just be enforcing a written policy.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the rest of us can't pillory them like they deserve all over the blogosphere!

Re: Re:

Re: Re: Re: Privacy

his response doesn't seem appropriate for the original story. No one said that anything in the article said that the student will be punished for privacy issues, the article merely quoted that he could be punished for breaking rules.

Re: Re: Got Bad School Personnel

Aaaaawww, is the little corporate cocksucker going to cry? Keep sucking down that Kool-Aid they're funneling into you about those evil, evil lawsuits. Don't you dare do any research into how many lawsuits there REALLY are, nor how many of them are both logical and necessary.

No, you just keep doing what they want. And then, when they're gotten what they want - what you think you want because they tell you it's what you want - and something happens to you, you'll try to sue and you won't be able to. On that day, you can come to me, begging for me to help you.

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

You mean the rules set down by the society this takes place in, right?

Try as you might, AC, you cannot develop rules that will consistently line up with everyone's individual concepts of "good", or any other moral and entirely subjective constructs.

If the rules aren't enforced consistently and equally they lose their value. As a potential example; if these kids were not punished, a potential and likely lesson to them would be that it's possible to avoid the consequences of the rules if they can merely come up with a good enough excuse when caught. On the other hand, if the kids know the rules will be enforced even if they DID have a "moral reason" then they will be more likely to save such exploits for those occasions exclusively.

And that gets to what the rules are really about, not morality, but order. They are, in their ever evolving (and sometimes questionable) state, the best middle-ground we have for a system to try to allow our infinite number of perspectives to attempt to live and cooperate together.

The different levels of consequences that can be applied for breaking the rules is the design where we get to recognize and react to the difference between these kids looking for a thief and if someone set up a camera specifically to invade student's privacy.

I'm really starting to ramble, I could go on and on about this. Suffices to say you're an idiot.

link

Ugh yet another stupid scchool administration

the more i see this stupid shit the more i think the chinese are right.

Publicly execute the thief, and fire and imprison for some long length of time those who allowed the thief to continue.

Public servants, People in authority, especially of children, have an extra duty of care to keep them safe and to be honest. Abuse of the public trust is a heinous crime with much stronger implications than just the single incident. The punishment of those in authority who abuse that trust must be severe and uncompromising. The Cop who steals, the teacher who abuses, the administrator who looks to the other way, much be held to a much higher standard to protect that public trust. the damage that cases like this do to the school systems, police and governmental organizations is much greater than the single case and must be treated accordingly.

I am glad it was not my kid who was involved. I would be in jail by now.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

I absolutely despise attitudes like this.

Rules are a means to an end. That's it. Specific rules are created, set in place and enforced to achieve a goal. The purpose of the rules is to clear away ambiguity about what may or may not hinder that end goal, otherwise everything in the world would be as simple as "don't do bad things".

In this instance, the rule about "no cameras or recording devices in locker rooms" is to maintain privacy. Even though the rule was violated in this circumstance, the end result was the protection of personal privacy for the students, as well as the protection of their personal items.

Punishing the students in any way, even if it's a simple "don't take pictures", does not further the goal, it only protects the rule.

violation of rights

The protagonist, prisoner Barrent, finds out on his first day on prison planet Omega that a certain class of citizens is legally entitled to shoot him on sight if they catch him outdoors during the first 24 hours (or 'until sundown', or something like that; it's a criminal world, so the rules are rather strange).

Barrent runs into what he believes to be a sanctuary where he cannot be shot, and the following, eerily bizarre but perfectly logical conversation takes place:

"That's very interesting," Barrent said, glancing toward the door and wondering how long his sanctuary would be respected. "Mr. Frendlyer, I'm not a member of your organization--"

"That doesn't matter," Frendlyer said. "Membership in our group is necessarily spontaneous. One joins when the occasion arises. Our intention is to protect the inalienable rights of all victims."

"Yes, sir. Well, there are three men outside trying to kill me."

"I see," Mr. Frendlyer said. He opened a drawer and took out a large book. He flipped through it quickly and found the reference he wanted. "Tell me, did you ascertain the status of these men?"

"I believe they were Hadjis," Barrent said. "Each of them had a little gold earring in his left ear."

"Quite right," Mr. Frendlyer said. "And today is Landing Day. You came off the ship that landed today, and have been classified a peon. Is that correct?"

"Yes, it is," Barrent said.

"Then I'm happy to say that everything is in order. The Landing Day Hunt ends at sundown. You can leave here with knowledge that everything is correct and that your rights are in no way being violated."

"Leave here? After sundown, you mean."

Mr. Frendlyer shook his head and smiled sadly. "I'm afraid not. According to the law, you must leave here at once."

"But they'll kill me!"

"That's very true," Frendlyer said. "Unfortunately, it can't be helped. A victim, by definition, is one who is to be killed."

"I thought this was a protective organization."

"It is. But we protect rights, not victims. Your rights are not being violated...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

"In this instance, the rule about "no cameras or recording devices in locker rooms" is to maintain privacy. Even though the rule was violated in this circumstance, the end result was the protection of personal privacy for the students, as well as the protection of their personal items.
Punishing the students in any way, even if it's a simple "don't take pictures", does not further the goal, it only protects the rule."

Exactly, because, as you said, everything in the world is not simple as "don't do bad things". Enforcing the rule predictably and continuously sets the standard that there's no wiggle room to avoid the rule. THAT protects privacy, by protecting the rule protecting privacy. When the ends justify the means and individual moral compasses outweigh the agreed upon rules, then you don't have "rules" anymore, you have "guidelines" and good luck with that.

Re:

What about teaching the value of "context"? I think that is a VERY good lesson to teach kids. When I tell my kids, "Don't get out of bed." That doesn't mean I want them to stay in bed if the house is on fire!

Re: Re:

What about teaching the value of "context"? I think that is a VERY good lesson to teach kids. When I tell my kids, "Don't get out of bed." That doesn't mean I want them to stay in bed if the house is on fire!

That may be the case for you, but some parents have been known to tell their kids "don't get out of bed" and then set the house on fire.

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Re: The end does not justify the means

Since this takes place in the USA maybe they should have simply rigged a handgun in the locker to shoot the thief in the face when the door was opened. This would eliminate the problems of breaking school cell phone and recording rules and of violating the thief's privacy rights.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

Except, in this situation, enforcing the rule is hurting privacy. It promotes a fear of punishment, even when an action is the right thing to do. Meanwhile, in exchange for a minor rule, your harming a much more severe one - the socially promoted expectation that you report wrongdoings to authorities.

The only thing you're arguing here is the "slippery slope" fallacy, that somehow one exception will lead to video tapes of naked children.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Privacy should rule the day

Meanwhile, in exchange for a minor rule, your harming a much more severe one - the socially promoted expectation that you report wrongdoings to authorities.

In the Texas community I grew up in, reporting wrongdoings by certain people was a very good way to wind up in prison (or worse) yourself. The social expectation was that you would not do such reporting.

The only court that counts

Getting the school to address the problem isn't necessarily the point of this. Just going nuclear and destroying the gym teacher's reputation in the community--so that his family, the folks at his church and lodge, the regulars at the bar he hangs out at, etc., all know what he's a dirtbag--will go a long way toward addressing the immediate problem. Ditto the principal--that he be embarrassed in the community at large.

Open mouth sabotage isn't necessarily about getting due process within the system. It's about hurting the people who refuse you due process in the court of public opinion.

Regardless of how the school administration punishes the students, it can't suppress the video once it's online. And regardless of how the students are punished, making an example of the teacher in the court of public opinion will send a message to others.

As for "the rules..."

I have to say, in response to all the people wringing their hands over the possibility that someone might get away with breaking "the rules," that the rules are made primarily to benefit the people who make the rules. If you believe otherwise, you're like one of the Egyptian slaves who thought he'd get to be Pharaoh someday if he worked hard enough building pyramids.

Re: EVERY one of those students should be EXPELLED!!

Hello,
The teacher is an adult, the students are minors. Hence, they have no rights to do anything not permitted by adults, whatsoever, regardless of what the teacher may or may not have done. Further, if the teacher did indeed steal anything, the students have no right to try and get it back, report the teacher, or to do anything but accept what happened. Life is not always fair, and it's about time that today's students learn that fact, first hand, if necessary.
As far as evidence is concerned, the teacher did nothing wrong whatsoever, and it should remain that way. Appropriate punishment for the students should include:

permanent expulsion from the school.

A mark on their record so any other school official, law official, or anyone else who has a need to know, will be able to see this. This mark should survive adulthood, and anyone should be allowed to make decisions based upon this mark.

Loss of all school credits, any awards given, any grants given, or anything else gained through education. This should include SAT or other test scores as well.

The teacher should be allowed to sue the students, and their families, to the full extent of the law, with any evidence the students may have being thrown out automatically, based on the minor status of the students.

The students should have a special restriction placed upon them, so that even when they turn 18, they would still remain minors and until the law recognized their adulthood. In this special situation, the students would retain all adult responsibilities, but none of the privileges of adulthood.

Yes, I know others will concider this draconian, but in today's society, it's completely necessary.

Re: Re: See!!!

No budget cuts may not have resulted in him having the job he does. But less money means less resources. If there are fewer resources around to actually care for it means you can be a slacker and do your job half-assed and still keep your job.

Plus budget cuts = "if you want to keep your job you will take a pay cut" or "there's the door". What better way to subsidize your paycut then to take it out of the pockets of the kids who (are supposed to) see him as a mentor.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: See!!!

Yes, no, and I didn't say that competency didn't matter. I said that it doesn't have anything to do with pay.

Umm, I've got news for you. Pay rate is the primary way employers express their estimation of an employee's value in the market. To claim that competency matters to them but they don't reflect it in pay is absurd.

For instance, a brand new college graduate in an IT field versus a fifteen year veteran of the same field. Who gets paid more? The graduate.

A new graduate or a graduate with 15 year's experience? The more experienced (and generally more competent) one. An uneducated person trying to find IT employment versus an uneducated one with experience and corresponding competence? Again, the more experienced and competent one.

A brand-new doctor or an experienced nurse practitioner?

So what are you on about, trying to compare more educated persons to lesser educated ones? I've got news for you, nurse practitioners are not the "same" as doctors. And yes, they tend to make less than doctors. For a reason.

Let me guess, you don't have much education, yet you think think you should be paid the same as those with lots of education, right? Because you think less educated people are generally just as "competent" as those with more education, right? And in your mind, the fact that they don't make as much then just proves that "competency" has nothing to do with pay.

Yeah, I know your type. Lacking in education and jealous of the more educated. Believe it or not, medical school, for example, is not just a place that rich kids go to party for a few years before they get out and start making the bucks as doctors. They really do learn stuff there and it's part of what sets them apart from nurses. And, yes, doctors are generally more competent to practice medicine than nurse practitioners. And it is reflected in their pay. If you want to make that kind of money, maybe you should consider getting an education yourself instead of going around talking about sour grapes.