No one has yet answered me the second part of the question whether only humans have a soul. I believe all living things have a part that survives and continues after the death of the physical part, which is my definition of "soul." I have no evidence for this, it is just a gut feeling.

No one has yet answered me the second part of the question whether only humans have a soul. I believe all living things have a part that survives and continues after the death of the physical part, which is my definition of "soul." I have no evidence for this, it is just a gut feeling.

It may be that, sans a working definition, it's still an ambiguous question.

The soul, like gods, and religion in general; is an invention of the human mind. Humans have a well documented propensity toward wishful thinking.

So the soul, like other abstractions, is simply the invention of the human mind?

Abstractions such as fear, love, courage, and hate don't exist - of course there is no hate in the world since hate is an invention of the human mind?

Other inventions of the human mind: Tubal cain, Solomon, Hiram abif, the Great Architect of the Universe, the transmigration of souls, Moses, Joshua, Abraham, and/or Jesus are all abstractions and not real - just inventions of the human mind/abstractions?

Agreed. My post was based on my definition of "soul" which may or not be the same as others.

If two people do not share a common definition of the words they are using then they are not really having a conversation since they are not talking about the same thing.

And as any English major or History major or Linguistics major will tell you at any University - definitions are so very important. No one can communicate unless they understand definitions.

Smart people talk about people; smarter people talk about things; the smartest people talk about concepts - and defining concepts to make them understandable is what the bulk of a university education consists.

My best guess is that the names soul and spirit are symbols for the two great aspects of the human psyche.

I disagree with your guess. One is part of the soul. The other helps manifest it, but it is not the soul.

Coach,

Just to let you know (in case you don't already) the body (soma) & soul (psyche) - the 'Dichotomic' view of man - is the accepted essence of mankind by scholars. Now how soma and psyche interact is another can of worms.

Other inventions of the human mind: Tubal cain, Solomon, Hiram abif, the Great Architect of the Universe, the transmigration of souls, Moses, Joshua, Abraham, and/or Jesus are all abstractions and not real - just inventions of the human mind/abstractions?

Indeed, the entire list you made above is 100% fictitious

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

My best guess is that the names soul and spirit are symbols for the two great aspects of the human psyche.

I disagree with your guess. One is part of the soul. The other helps manifest it, but it is not the soul.

Coach,

Just to let you know (in case you don't already) the body (soma) & soul (psyche) - the 'Dichotomic' view of man - is the accepted essence of mankind by scholars. Now how soma and psyche interact is another can of worms.

Yes, especially when you have a two fold view of a three fold being. Just to let you know (in case you don't already) the body (soma) & soul (psyche) -- the 'Dichotomic' view of man -- is a view which I do not buy into.

When you leave out "spirit" all bets are off since you leave out the very aspect that animates. You can't have a soul without spirit. Puny Scholars be damned.

Other inventions of the human mind: Tubal cain, Solomon, Hiram abif, the Great Architect of the Universe, the transmigration of souls, Moses, Joshua, Abraham, and/or Jesus are all abstractions and not real - just inventions of the human mind/abstractions?

While there may have been people around the implied time period with those names, the claims made and attributed to those individuals are fictitious. The bible, in its entirety; is man made superstitious, and fictitious nonsense. It's a story book, and a bad one, nothing more. So yes, 100% fictitious. I suppose I could attempt some humility and call it my opinion, but the fact remains that there is no evidence for any religion current or past. The religions of today, are the mythologies of tomorrow. I long for tomorrow.

On a side note, I read a recent poll that stated all religion is on the steady decline, and atheism/agnosticism and otherwise non-religious are on the rise. Up to 23-25% in the U.S. by some polls. It is slow, and long overdue progress, but progress none the less. I'll take it.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

While there may have been people around the implied time period with those names, the claims made and attributed to those individuals are fictitious. The bible, in its entirety; is man made superstitious, and fictitious nonsense. It's a story book, and a bad one, nothing more. So yes, 100% fictitious. I suppose I could attempt some humility and call it my opinion, but the fact remains that there is no evidence for any religion current or past. The religions of today, are the mythologies of tomorrow. I long for tomorrow.

On a side note, I read a recent poll that stated all religion is on the steady decline, and atheism/agnosticism and otherwise non-religious are on the rise. Up to 23-25% in the U.S. by some polls. It is slow, and long overdue progress, but progress none the less. I'll take it.

Adept, in your fury, you have mischaracterized a collection of books intended to provide wisdom for those capable of gleaning it, and done so with improper diligence. The collection provides for the level it can be understood.

For you, it provides a target of ridicule. For others an instruction manual from making better choices and decisions. For some, entertaining and thought-provoking stories. Some others, moral guidance. There are some who take it literally, others who take parts of it literally, others who take it totally figuratively.

To label it as you have speaks more of your mindset and heart than all those you condemn through your words.

You might want to step back and look at the huge anger you harbor and how it is affecting your judgment and actions.

It is clear from your words that you have issues that have yet to settle down to a civil, understanding and considerate level.

I shall leave you with this thought, taken directly from that book of nonsense, with hope that the words may sink in and help you see things differently even in the slightest and perhaps temper the imbalance that lives within you: It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and angry woman.

For you, it provides a target of ridicule. For others an instruction manual from making better choices and decisions. For some, entertaining and thought-provoking stories. Some others, moral guidance. There are some who take it literally, others who take parts of it literally, others who take it totally figuratively.

To label it as you have speaks more of your mindset and heart than all those you condemn through your words.

I'll begin by admitting the obvious. I do condemn the bible as immoral fictitious nonsense. It is Christianities "sacred" text. My contempt of it is based on what it says, and what it teaches, not my interpretation of it. People ignorantly and gleefully go to it daily for moral guidance. Ask yourself... if god wanted to guide humanity with a book.. why give us a book that condones slavery? Why give us a book that states that we can beat our slaves, so long as they do not die immediately, or so severely that we put out their eyes or teeth. A book that states that the willingness to commit human sacrifice of your own son was a noble and honorable deed (because god told him to do it) To stone a woman to DEATH on her fathers doorstep if she not be a virgin on her wedding night. To set a price for, and sell our daughters into servitude to another man. To kill entire tribes because they don't believe what you do.. down to the last one... children included, keeping only the virgins. (I'm sure they wanted them for purely moral purposes.) A book that goes on to state that anyone who does not believe in the gospel of Jesus is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered up and burned. A book that people use to teach (and in my view torment, and mentally abuse) young children. Far to young to make rational and logically decisions. To terrify them with the idea of hell, and that that is where they, and all that they love, family and friends alike, will be sent to upon their death to be tortured and tormented forever and ever if they do not accept Jesus. Vicarious redemption... another sickly element of the book. Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice that celebrates a single human sacrifice as if it were effective. A book that says our sins can be forgiven by the punishment of another person. A positively immoral doctrine. But perhaps worst of all, a book that considers women an inferior creation. That a woman is bound to server her father until such a time that she is sold to another, or married to another, at which time she continues her servitude to that man.

Now, It could easily be said that I'm "cherry picking" the bad bits of the book. One can not deny that what I have stated comes directly from that positively immoral book. Some people choose to ignore these, and other "bad parts" of the text, and choose to do a bit of cherry picking of their own. If you're going to throw out and disregard the many many terrible bad, and immoral things that the book says, then why not just throw the whole thing out and live your life by a secular law of the golden rule. Treat others as you would like to be treated. What more do we need? Christians love the story Jesus tells about the man from Sumeria. Forgetting a couple of key things about the story. Jesus is telling a story about someone he encountered, or someone he heard about. The man could not have been a christian, since the religion and its dogma did not yet exist. The "good Sumeritan" took the action that he did for no more reason that basic human solidarity, and a desire to help a fellow human being in need. Again, what other reason should we need? Humans by nature have a desire (often for their own well being) to be of help, and service to others. Basic human decency is innate in us. It does not come from god or religion.

By the standards set forth by this "moral book" somewhere in the area of a billion people in India are already doomed to hell, because they missed the revelation. No matter how good these people are, they are doomed to spend eternity in hell, simply because they were born in the wrong area of the world, and received the wrong theology. Is this moral teaching? I say it is not only immoral, but evil. 9 million children die every year before they reach the age of 5. 24 thousand children a day,.. or a thousand an hour. Think of these children... think of the parents, families, and friends of these children. Many of them praying daily for them to be spared, and yet their prayers will not be answered. According to Christianity (and other religions) this is all part of gods divine plan. (some plan, huh?) Any god who would allow millions of children to suffer and die, and their families and friends to grieve in this way, can either do nothing to help them, or doesn't care to. He is therefor impotent or evil. So god created the cultural isolation of the Hindus in ignorance of revelation, and then created the penalty for that ignorance, which is an eternity in the lake of fire. On the other hand, by the christian belief, the average psychopath, or serial killer on death row need only come to Jesus in his last moments on earth, and after a final meal and his execution, he gets to spend eternity in heaven because he asked for Jesus to forgive his sins. Again I ask, is this moral teaching? I maintain that it is not only immoral, but intrinsically EVIL teaching. To think and believe in this way is to fail to reason honestly, or care sufficiently about the suffering of other human beings. These beliefs are obscene, and contemptible.

Religion allows otherwise good, decent, and sane people to believe by the billions, what only a lunatic could believe on their own. If you were to wake up tomorrow morning and believe that by saying a few Latin words over your pancakes, it would turn them into the body of Elvis Presley... You have lost your mind. But if you believe the same thing about a cracker, and the body of Jesus.. you're just a catholic.

I can't imagine that I'm the first person to come to the conclusion that it is a strange sort of "loving god" that would make salvation depend on a belief in him with very bad, to no evidence at all for his existence.

This doctrine follows along with a contemptible history of scientific ignorance, and religious barbarism. We come from people who used to bury children alive in post holes of buildings as offerings to their imaginary gods to protect their structures and buildings from being destroyed by natural forces such as weather, earthquake, or fire. Forces which they didn't even understand, and used individual gods to fill in for what they lacked in knowledge and understanding. These are the sorts of people who wrote the bible and other religious texts. Absolutely ignorant people. In the natural world, good people will do the best that they can. Evil people will do the worst that they can. If you want to make good people do evil things, you need only a little religion. Specifically two peoples with different and incompatible religions. If there is a less moral, moral framework than the one presented by Christianity, or any other silly and ignorant religion,... I haven't heard of it. You do NOT need any religion at all, to be a moral and decent human being.

While I respect an individuals right to believe whatever nonsense they wish, I will exercise MY right to find their beliefs absolutely ridiculous, obscene, vulgar, ignorant, immoral, and evil. And I will "fight" (with words) against this ignorance whenever and where ever possible. Recent polls
in the United States suggest that around 23 percent of the population is
atheist, agnostic, or otherwise non-religious.They also suggest that all religions are on a steady decline. (I am
thankful for that progress, slow as it may be, and long overdue; it is progress
none the less.)As wonderful as this is,
it also points out the very disturbing fact that roughly 77 percent of the
population of the U.S. still believe in some form of superstition and mythology
commonly known as religion.

Religion, it must be said; makes
extraordinary claims, without providing even ordinary evidence for these
claims. To quote Carl Sagan
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Happily, there is no evidence for the claims,
or validity of any of the religions of the world. To insist that we are created and not
evolved, in the face of all the evidence; is to fail to reason honestly or logically. Religious belief is the willful suspension of
your critical faculties. Faith, by its
very definition; is a belief in something without evidence.

It is obvious that all religion is of human origin. The number of available religions to choose
from is proof enough of that. There is
nothing special or divine about any of them.
They all claim to be the correct religion, and at most only one can
be. Wouldn’t it be more logical and
reasonable to assume that if all other religions of the world are wrong, that
whatever one you choose to believe in is also wrong? What are the odds that everyone that does not
believe what you do is wrong, and you are right? Knowing all the while that they believe the
same of their own chosen beliefs and that you are the one who is wrong. How can a thinking person not see the ridiculousness
of this?

Edited by Adept? - August/18/2016 at 8:00am

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

Adept, I get the impression that you feel that religion is the source of evil in the world, or at least a major source. You also seem to acknowledge that there is good in the world. What then is the source of this "good"? I am guessing that you might say that it has been implanted in the human mind, or something to that effect. If that be your answer, how did it get implanted there?

Adept, I get the impression that you feel that religion is the source of evil in the world, or at least a major source. You also seem to acknowledge that there is good in the world. What then is the source of this "good"? I am guessing that you might say that it has been implanted in the human mind, or something to that effect. If that be your answer, how did it get implanted there?

Indeed, religion is the source of a great deal of evil in the world, both currently, and throughout history. Not all, but a lot, and humanity would be far better off without it. Human beings have evolved to live together in societies, and to be of help and use to one another. We are decent and good individuals by nature, and not by creation. Indeed we are half a chromosome away from the chimpanzee, with whom we share 98% of our DNA. (that is scientific fact, as is evolution itself, whether you believe it or not.) We are merely just another mammalian species of primate on the ladder of evolution.

While there are evil people, they are entirely mentally ill individuals, who are in some way defective... literally. As with people that are born every day with physical, and/or mental birth defects. They are glitches, or perhaps in some cases of superior intelligence, advances in natural human evolution. On the other hand if we assume the belief of a creationist god, these evil, mentally ill, physically/mentally deformed individuals are created and made this way by god. For what purpose? Why would a loving caring creator, with a supposed divine plan create inferior and evil human beings?

On the subject of divine plan, it is suggested that god is omniscient and omnipotent. How could he be both? If he knows all, past, present, and future, then he can't be all powerful at the same time. You can not simultaneously know what the future of your creation holds, and also have the power to change it arbitrarily.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

He states "to state that we are created not evolved in the face of all the evidence is to fail to reason honestly or logically"

While I would/could take to task a great deal of what he said above, this is the one I choose to "fight" right now.

Scientists say we evolved
. Great show me. They have been finding skeletal remains for years with no evidence. They used to say we evolved form dolphins who came out of the water and evolved. Great, show me a skeleton of a dolphin with hands and feet [or even part of such]. They talk about animals who used to walk on land and now swim. They talk of animals that used to swim and now walk. Show me the remains of such animals, their skeletons will bear this out. OOPS, you can't find one!!!!

Scientists say we evolved because they do not believe in God. These two principals are fundamentally opposed. Scientists try as they may, are looking for a way to prove that the parting of the waters did happen, scientifically. Several theories exist, none make much sense.

They are trying to find a way to prove it rained for 40 days and nights. The fact that they acknowledge it happened at all is strange when they try to scientifically prove it happened because of the stars aligned right, or comets that struck the earth.

He was to some degree. Now he's just a bitter little man who likes to tell everyone else how stupid we are for our beliefs. I find it quite amusing to read his rants.

The comments and assumptions of a man without a rational intellectual rebuttal to my post perhaps? I don't appreciate the personal insults.

Please know that I am not telling anyone that they are stupid. I do not ridicule the individual. I ridicule the beliefs and ideas only. I have religious people in my family, as neighbors, co-workers, and friends and fraternal brothers. I don't regard the individual with contempt, only the beliefs they may hold. Most of them are well aware of my stance on the subject, and leave me be, and I them. However, whenever they bring their personal beliefs into a subject of conversation, they can expect to be questioned, and made to defend what they claim to believe in. People as individuals should not be subjected to ridicule. Beliefs and ideas however, especially when those beliefs or ideas are completely false, immoral, and ridiculous, should expect ridicule.

I love it when the door knockers come to my house to proselytize. I don't ask them to leave... on the contrary, I invite them in to chat. They usually leave on their own.. and after a short stay. They are (not surprisingly) less than receptive to my questioning nature.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

He states "to state that we are created not evolved in the face of all the evidence is to fail to reason honestly or logically"

While I would/could take to task a great deal of what he said above, this is the one I choose to "fight" right now.

Scientists say we evolved
. Great show me. They have been finding skeletal remains for years with no evidence. They used to say we evolved form dolphins who came out of the water and evolved. Great, show me a skeleton of a dolphin with hands and feet [or even part of such]. They talk about animals who used to walk on land and now swim. They talk of animals that used to swim and now walk. Show me the remains of such animals, their skeletons will bear this out. OOPS, you can't find one!!!!

Scientists say we evolved because they do not believe in God. These two principals are fundamentally opposed. Scientists try as they may, are looking for a way to prove that the parting of the waters did happen, scientifically. Several theories exist, none make much sense.

They are trying to find a way to prove it rained for 40 days and nights. The fact that they acknowledge it happened at all is strange when they try to scientifically prove it happened because of the stars aligned right, or comets that struck the earth.

and lastly, what has this to do with SOUL, did we get off track.?

Evolution doesn't work that way my friend. You will not find "mutant" fossil remains. Evolution of life on this planet has taken place over millions of years. (a time frame most christians don't even believe exists, but that's a subject for another time I suppose) Evolution, as I stated above in another post is a scientific FACT. It has been conclusively PROVEN to have happened, and still be happening now. Believe it.. don't believe it.. whatever. The cool thing about science is that it works, and can be proven, whether you choose to believe it or not. You can ridicule science and scientist all you like, but we both know that if you were to get seriously ill, you would not go to a church seeking treatment. You would go to a hospital and consult with trained scientists, nurses, lab techs, doctors and so on. Why is that I wonder?

Although I have heard of "true believers" that would not do that, and would indeed only pray for help. Those people will not continue to exist, I promise you.

In closing, yes, we are waaaay off topic now, and that is mostly my fault. Although I'm pretty sure my posts have mostly been in response to others claims or statements in their posts. It was not my intention to divert the entire thread. Though I must admit that I do enjoy spreading knowledge, and hopefully causing some readers of my posts to at least objectively consider what I'm saying. I believe that the sooner we as society and humanity throw off superstitious, infantile, religious belief, the sooner our species will begin to rise to its full potential, and take another necessary step in our evolutionary existence.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

Indeed, religion is the source of a great deal of evil in the world, both currently, and throughout history.

Your's is a jaded view. It has been the source of far more good then the evil you cite.

Not all, but a lot, and humanity would be far better off without it.

Opinion.

Indeed we are half a chromosome away from the chimpanzee, with whom we share 98% of our DNA. (that is scientific fact, as is evolution itself, whether you believe it or not.)

Actually, one of our chromosomes has merged and were there were once two, there is but one. This merger prevents us from having viable offspring with other apes.

On the other hand if we assume the belief of a creationist god, these evil, mentally ill, physically/mentally deformed individuals are created and made this way by god. For what purpose? Why would a loving caring creator, with a supposed divine plan create inferior and evil human beings?

You once again assume all readers and believers take the book literally. Many do not.

Maybe we are off topic but my question to Adept I believe is related and important to the topic, as are all the other similar posts.

Adept, I asked you more or less if evil comes from religion, where then does good come from, what is its source. Your answer was humans are good and decent by nature. That does not answer the question. You seem to have an answer for the source of evil, but not the source of good. My point here is not to trip you up but in your rants about religion to point out that you only want to see one side of the equation. I think you need to do much reflecting about the other side.

Maybe we are off topic but my question to Adept I believe is related and important to the topic, as are all the other similar posts.

Adept, I asked you more or less if evil comes from religion, where then does good come from, what is its source. Your answer was humans are good and decent by nature. That does not answer the question. You seem to have an answer for the source of evil, but not the source of good. My point here is not to trip you up but in your rants about religion to point out that you only want to see one side of the equation. I think you need to do much reflecting about the other side.

I reflected for the majority of my life from the other side. I was raised christian and maintained a belief in a personal god up until just about 7 or 8 years ago, at which time I became more a skeptic, and a deist at best, to now, where I am a militant atheist. Religion is not the source of ALL evil, but it is certainly the source of quite a LOT of evil in the world throughout history, up to and including current events. As far as where "good" comes from. I have given my answer. It is innate it us. That is my answer. I have no want or need of any supernatural "cause" of good or evil. That is largely a religious held need, that I do not have.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

For you, it provides a target of ridicule. For others an instruction manual from making better choices and decisions. For some, entertaining and thought-provoking stories. Some others, moral guidance. There are some who take it literally, others who take parts of it literally, others who take it totally figuratively.

To label it as you have speaks more of your mindset and heart than all those you condemn through your words.

I'll begin by admitting the obvious. I do condemn the bible as immoral fictitious nonsense. It is Christianities "sacred" text. My contempt of it is based on what it says, and what it teaches, not my interpretation of it. People ignorantly and gleefully go to it daily for moral guidance. Ask yourself... if god wanted to guide humanity with a book.. why give us a book that condones slavery? Why give us a book that states that we can beat our slaves, so long as they do not die immediately, or so severely that we put out their eyes or teeth. A book that states that the willingness to commit human sacrifice of your own son was a noble and honorable deed (because god told him to do it) To stone a woman to DEATH on her fathers doorstep if she not be a virgin on her wedding night. To set a price for, and sell our daughters into servitude to another man. To kill entire tribes because they don't believe what you do.. down to the last one... children included, keeping only the virgins. (I'm sure they wanted them for purely moral purposes.) A book that goes on to state that anyone who does not believe in the gospel of Jesus is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered up and burned. A book that people use to teach (and in my view torment, and mentally abuse) young children. Far to young to make rational and logically decisions. To terrify them with the idea of hell, and that that is where they, and all that they love, family and friends alike, will be sent to upon their death to be tortured and tormented forever and ever if they do not accept Jesus. Vicarious redemption... another sickly element of the book. <span style="line-height: 16.8px;">Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice</span> that celebrates a single human sacrifice as if it were effective. A book that says our sins can be forgiven by the punishment of another person. A positively immoral doctrine. But perhaps worst of all, a book that considers women an inferior creation. That a woman is bound to server her father until such a time that she is sold to another, or married to another, at which time she continues her servitude to that man.

Now, It could easily be said that I'm "cherry picking" the bad bits of the book. One can not deny that what I have stated comes directly from that positively immoral book. Some people choose to ignore these, and other "bad parts" of the text, and choose to do a bit of cherry picking of their own. If you're going to throw out and disregard the many many terrible bad, and immoral things that the book says, then why not just throw the whole thing out and live your life by a secular law of the golden rule. Treat others as you would like to be treated. What more do we need? Christians love the story Jesus tells about the man from Sumeria. Forgetting a couple of key things about the story. Jesus is telling a story about someone he encountered, or someone he heard about. The man could not have been a christian, since the religion and its dogma did not yet exist. The "good Sumeritan" took the action that he did for no more reason that basic human solidarity, and a desire to help a fellow human being in need. Again, what other reason should we need? Humans by nature have a desire (often for their own well being) to be of help, and service to others. Basic human decency is innate in us. It does not come from god or religion.

By the standards set forth by this "moral book" somewhere in the area of a billion people in India are already doomed to hell, because they missed the revelation. No matter how good these people are, they are doomed to spend eternity in hell, simply because they were born in the wrong area of the world, and received the wrong theology. Is this moral teaching? I say it is not only immoral, but evil. 9 million children die every year before they reach the age of 5. 24 thousand children a day,.. or a thousand an hour. Think of these children... think of the parents, families, and friends of these children. Many of them praying daily for them to be spared, and yet their prayers will not be answered. According to Christianity (and other religions) this is all part of gods divine plan. (some plan, huh?) Any god who would allow millions of children to suffer and die, and their families and friends to grieve in this way, can either do nothing to help them, or doesn't care to. He is therefor impotent or evil. So god created the cultural isolation of the Hindus in ignorance of revelation, and then created the penalty for that ignorance, which is an eternity in the lake of fire. On the other hand, by the christian belief, the average psychopath, or serial killer on death row need only come to Jesus in his last moments on earth, and after a final meal and his execution, he gets to spend eternity in heaven because he asked for Jesus to forgive his sins. Again I ask, is this moral teaching? I maintain that it is not only immoral, but intrinsically EVIL teaching. To think and believe in this way is to fail to reason honestly, or care sufficiently about the suffering of other human beings. These beliefs are obscene, and contemptible.

Religion allows otherwise good, decent, and sane people to believe by the billions, what only a lunatic could believe on their own. If you were to wake up tomorrow morning and believe that by saying a few Latin words over your pancakes, it would turn them into the body of Elvis Presley... You have lost your mind. But if you believe the same thing about a cracker, and the body of Jesus.. you're just a catholic.

I can't imagine that I'm the first person to come to the conclusion that it is a strange sort of "loving god" that would make salvation depend on a belief in him with very bad, to no evidence at all for his existence.

This doctrine follows along with a contemptible history of scientific ignorance, and religious barbarism. We come from people who used to bury children alive in post holes of buildings as offerings to their imaginary gods to protect their structures and buildings from being destroyed by natural forces such as weather, earthquake, or fire. Forces which they didn't even understand, and used individual gods to fill in for what they lacked in knowledge and understanding. These are the sorts of people who wrote the bible and other religious texts. Absolutely ignorant people. In the natural world, good people will do the best that they can. Evil people will do the worst that they can. If you want to make good people do evil things, you need only a little religion. Specifically two peoples with different and incompatible religions. If there is a less moral, moral framework than the one presented by Christianity, or any other silly and ignorant religion,... I haven't heard of it. You do NOT need any religion at all, to be a moral and decent human being.

While I respect an individuals right to believe whatever nonsense they wish, I will exercise MY right to find their beliefs absolutely ridiculous, obscene, vulgar, ignorant, immoral, and evil. And I will "fight" (with words) against this ignorance whenever and where ever possible. <span style="line-height: 115%;">Recent pollsin the United States suggest that around 23 percent of the population isatheist, agnostic, or otherwise non-religious.</span><span style="line-height: 115%;"> </span><span style="line-height: 115%;">They also suggest that all religions are on a steady decline. (I amthankful for that progress, slow as it may be, and long overdue; it is progressnone the less.)</span><span style="line-height: 115%;"> </span><span style="line-height: 115%;">As wonderful as this is,it also points out the very disturbing fact that roughly 77 percent of thepopulation of the U.S. still believe in some form of superstition and mythologycommonly known as religion.</span>

<p ="msonormal"=""><span style="line-height: 115%;"> Religion, it must be said; makesextraordinary claims, without providing even ordinary evidence for theseclaims. To quote Carl Sagan“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Happily, there is no evidence for the claims,or validity of any of the religions of the world. To insist that we are created and notevolved, in the face of all the evidence; is to fail to reason honestly or logically. Religious belief is the willful suspension ofyour critical faculties. Faith, by itsvery definition; is a belief in something without evidence. <o:p></o:p></span>

<p ="msonormal"="" style="text-indent:.5in"><span style="line-height: 115%;">It is obvious that all religion is of human origin. The number of available religions to choosefrom is proof enough of that. There isnothing special or divine about any of them. They all claim to be the correct religion, and at most only one canbe. Wouldn’t it be more logical andreasonable to assume that if all other religions of the world are wrong, thatwhatever one you choose to believe in is also wrong? What are the odds that everyone that does notbelieve what you do is wrong, and you are right? Knowing all the while that they believe thesame of their own chosen beliefs and that you are the one who is wrong. How can a thinking person not see the ridiculousnessof this?<o:p></o:p></span>

Yep, I agree... you certainly are militant. So much so that you fail to see any wisdom being conveyed by any book considered holy.

You may be lucky enough to some day realize that your anger is misplaced, your actions are ego-centric and there's much that you have missed in your efforts to throw out the bathwater.

Indeed, religion is the source of a great deal of evil in the world, both currently, and throughout history.

Your's is a jaded view. It has been the source of far more good then the evil you cite.

That is just false. Do I really need to list them? Genocide, ethnic cleansing, honor rape, human sacrifice, the crusades, the inquisitions, most wars, the molestation, and gentile mutilation of children... shall I go on? The preaching that AIDS may be bad, but not as bad as condoms. The hindrance of medical and scientific research and advancements, not only now, but historically, shall I go on? How about the holocaust, or the events of 9/11, or any of the numerous suicide bombings and be-headings. Come on Coach.. you know better than to make that statement. Say nothing of the fact the there is no action of good or charity that a religious believer can say or do, that a non religious person could not also do. On the other hand, I bet no one would have any difficulty thinking of an evil action (see list above) that are exclusively faith based initiatives. Say nothing of the fact that any "good" attributed to any religion, does not make it any more true.

coach wrote:

adept? wrote:

Not all, but a lot, and humanity would be far better off without it.

Opinion.

yes, that is my opinion. An opinion that I firmly believe is factual, and will be proven to be so (though not likely in my lifetime) if we don't succeed in destroying ourselves beforehand.

coach wrote:

Adept? wrote:

Indeed we are half a chromosome away from the chimpanzee, with whom we share 98% of our DNA. (that is scientific fact, as is evolution itself, whether you believe it or not.)

Actually, one of our chromosomes has merged and were there were once two, there is but one. This merger prevents us from having viable offspring with other apes.

we do not mate with other species. that is not how evolution works. I would have thought you knew that. We share our DNA and a common ancestor with apes. Richard Dawkins concisely explains this in a very short video. About 1 min 45 seconds I believe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh0F4FBLJRE

coach wrote:

adept? wrote:

On the other hand if we assume the belief of a creationist god, these evil, mentally ill, physically/mentally deformed individuals are created and made this way by god. For what purpose? Why would a loving caring creator, with a supposed divine plan create inferior and evil human beings?

You once again assume all readers and believers take the book literally. Many do not.

The issue is not with the believers that believe in peace and quiet, and non-violence. The issue is with the many who DO believe it, and DO take it, to be literal. There is no disputing this. Those that believe that the bible, or the koran, or any other text is the literal, and un-erring word of god are delusional and dangerous people to have living in our society. The punishment for apostasy in the Islamic faith is death. Who is going to say that this is good for humanity?

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

Yep, I agree... you certainly are militant. So much so that you fail to see any wisdom being conveyed by any book considered holy.

You may be lucky enough to some day realize that your anger is misplaced, your actions are ego-centric and there's much that you have missed in your efforts to throw out the bathwater.

To not have the definition misconstrued or misunderstood.

Militant atheism is a term applied to atheism which is hostile towards religion. Militant atheists have a desire to propagate the doctrine, and differ from moderate atheists because they hold religion to be harmful.

I suppose this should be my final post on the forum. I don't want to cause any more disharmony among you than I already have. Indeed that was never my intention. It seems that there is no polite way to tell someone that you feel that the beliefs that they hold dear, are primitive and ridiculous superstitious nonsense. Indeed even questioning someones beliefs is enough to send some right over the edge.

It was stated that I should attempt to see things from the other side... indeed I have, for many years. I would invite any objectively minded individual to do the same. Ask yourselves. Have you ever considered for even a second that you could be wrong? Have you even considered the fact that your beliefs could be false, or that another set could be right, and you have been leading your life based on the wrong theology? I would invite you to read the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Danial Denett, Sam Harris, and many others. Short of that, pick up another religious text.. whatever one, it doesn't matter. Read the Torah, or the Koran, or the Bhagavad-Gita, or the Book of Mormon. After you read one of the texts from another faith, ask yourself this question. Are you convinced? Will you convert your faith? This is how I feel, and I imagine most atheists feel. We're not convinced. I've read your book(s) and they are unconvincing. There is no evidence. We are all atheists as it relates to every faith and religion but whatever one you choose to follow and believe. (or have chosen for you by your parents and your up-bringing in most cases) We as atheists just choose to go one god further, and believe in no god and no religion at all. Human beings began their religious journey being poly-theists, having many gods. Now the majority of the world are mono-theists, having only the one god. We're getting closer the the true figure all the time. That's progress.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

The preaching that AIDS may be bad, but not as bad as condoms. The hindrance of medical and scientific research and advancements, not only now, but historically, shall I go on?

only if the spirit continues to move you...

How about the holocaust, or the events of 9/11, or any of the numerous suicide bombings and be-headings. Come on Coach.. you know better than to make that statement.

Actually, it was because I know better that I make that statement. You're focusing on the press. The press always accents the negative. It is never a true measure or indicator of reality. But you already know this, or at least, should.

Say nothing of the fact the there is no action of good or charity that a religious believer can say or do, that a non religious person could not also do. On the other hand, I bet no one would have any difficulty thinking of an evil action (see list above) that are exclusively faith based initiatives. Say nothing of the fact that any "good" attributed to any religion, does not make it any more true.

or any less false...

coach wrote:

adept? wrote:

</span>Not all, but a lot, and humanity would be far better off without it.

Opinion.

yes, that is my opinion. An opinion that I firmly believe is factual, and will be proven to be so (though not likely in my lifetime) if we don't succeed in destroying ourselves beforehand.

So, let me get this straight. It's factual, but has not been proven and may not be proven. Based upon your definition of faith, it sounds like you've chosen to believe something without evidence. Isn't that the basis of a religion? I thought you claimed that you weren't superstitious?

coach wrote:

Adept? wrote:

Indeed we are half a chromosome away from the chimpanzee, with whom we share 98% of our DNA. (that is scientific fact, as is evolution itself, whether you believe it or not.)

Actually, one of our chromosomes has merged and were there were once two, there is but one. This merger prevents us from having viable offspring with other apes.

we do not mate with other species.

Actually, there are people that do, but they have no success since there are no offspring. These acts are considered immoral in most all religions, the nonsense you tell us does no good. The acts are also illegal. Seems some acts can be legislated but not prevented.

that is not how evolution works.

Did I claim anywhere that evolution worked that way?

I would have thought you knew that.

While you're playing the dismissive game, let me throw in: I would have thought you would not have jumped to a false conclusion about what I wrote. But since you did, you might want to check out other false conclusions that you've jumped to elsewhere.

I'm sure he does. However, what he has to offer is often as dismissive as what you do and hence I shall go back to that book and stay apart and not dwell with the contentious and angry.

coach wrote:

adept? wrote:

On the other hand if we assume the belief of a creationist god, these evil, mentally ill, physically/mentally deformed individuals are created and made this way by god. For what purpose? Why would a loving caring creator, with a supposed divine plan create inferior and evil human beings?

You once again assume all readers and believers take the book literally. Many do not.

The issue is not with the believers that believe in peace and quiet, and non-violence. The issue is with the many who DO believe it, and DO take it, to be literal. There is no disputing this. Those that believe that the bible, or the koran, or any other text is the literal, and un-erring word of god are delusional and dangerous people to have living in our society. The punishment for apostasy in the Islamic faith is death. Who is going to say that this is good for humanity?

So, it is not the religion itself but the insane individuals who bend it to what they want to do anyway. Why then do you attack the faith rather then the distorted thinking that filters it toward warped ends?

I don't think you have caused disharmony in the forum. I believe the disharmony is within you. The issue is not your distaste for organized religion- many have that. The issue is your intense anger and hatred toward religion. I have run across many with distaste for organized religion, my father was one but he was otherwise a God-fearing man. I have never met a person with the intense anger and hatred toward it that you have as is so evident by your posts. It's just sad because beliefs are one thing, but the intensity of your anger and hatred are so self-destructive. That's the last I will say about the matter.

I suppose this should be my final post on the forum. I don't want to cause any more disharmony among you than I already have. Indeed that was never my intention.

Yet, that is exactly what you brought about by your militant posts. There's a bright shiny message for ya.

It seems that there is no polite way to tell someone that you feel that the beliefs that they hold dear, are primitive and ridiculous superstitious nonsense.

There are certainly more civil, considerate and honoring ways to say that you do not agree with what someone else holds dear. I'm sure if you continue to maul away at it, you'll eventually find the right approach that doesn't kill your target, or send others in your direction to stop your attacks.

Indeed even questioning someones beliefs is enough to send some right over the edge.

So, you consider your attacks and dismissals mere questioning? You have much to consider that you have yet to realize.

It was stated that I should attempt to see things from the other side... indeed I have, for many years. I would invite any objectively minded individual to do the same. Ask yourselves. Have you ever considered for even a second that you could be wrong?

Doctor, heal thyself.

Have you even considered the fact that your beliefs could be false, or that another set could be right, and you have been leading your life based on the wrong theology?

Doctor, heal thyself.

I would invite you to read the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Danial Denett, Sam Harris, and many others.

Add Joseph Campbell, Rabbi Harold Kushner and Carl Jung to your list when you get a chance.

Short of that, pick up another religious text.. whatever one, it doesn't matter. Read the Torah, or the Koran, or the Bhagavad-Gita, or the Book of Mormon. After you read one of the texts from another faith, ask yourself this question. Are you convinced?

Why must one be convinced. Can't one simple walk away inspired? It is not always a binary world with your view that rules.

Will you convert your faith? This is how I feel, and I imagine most atheists feel. We're not convinced. I've read your book(s) and they are unconvincing. There is no evidence.

Perhaps you might approach all of them differently and merely seek the wisdom that each offers and leave behind anything that simple does not fit into your philosophy. You know, take what you like and leave the rest. It's a very simple zen way of living with the crazies we all shall encounter on our paths.

We are all atheists as it relates to every faith and religion but whatever one you choose to follow and believe. (or have chosen for you by your parents and your up-bringing in most cases) We as atheists just choose to go one god further, and believe in no god and no religion at all. Human beings began their religious journey being poly-theists, having many gods. Now the majority of the world are mono-theists, having only the one god. We're getting closer the the true figure all the time. That's progress.

I wish you well and much growth. Please try to be a little more gentle and considerate in your war.

I must begin with an apology to GrimoirA3 for hijacking his thread. It was not my intention, but one post led to another led to another.

I'm going to respond to some of the statements above. I'm not going to do the "quote" thing. I'm sure you all have memories orderly enough to recall who said what, and if that is not the case, then you can read back should you care to do so.

To the statement that the disharmony is within me, and that it is self destructive. In a sense, I do not doubt it. However, I assure you that I am quite well. Thank you for your concern.

To the statement of my opinion that the world would be better off without religion is a "belief" of mine based on no proof or evidence. I suppose I left myself open for that one. I should have just stopped at "Yes, it is my opinion." Having said that, it is also a fact, and I can give an example of proof. It is safe to say that no one would deny that there have been, and still are unbelievable atrocities, and crimes against humanity as a result of fundamental, and extremist religious belief. If the religions, and the belief in them had not existed, and did not exist now, those atrocities would not have taken place, and would not still be taking place to this very day.

Which leads me to the statement that the religions, and religious beliefs are not the problem, but only the fundamentalists, and extremists. I can't believe that you honestly believe that to be true..? What do you think the fundamentalists and extremists are following? The texts, and dogmas of the religions themselves! Just because the majority of the religious are sane and intelligent enough to know better than to follow these texts and dogmas literally, doesn't make the texts and dogmas associated with the religions ok. So again I say, remove the religions, their dogmas, their totalitarianism, and their sadomasochism, and you remove the problem. Of course humanity is abundant with other issues that plague our societies, and humanity in general, but no one can argue that throwing off all the superstitious religious dogma and leaving it in the bronze and iron ages where they belong, wouldn't do a great deal to improve our ability to bring people together and solve the real, and more important issues of humanity.

To the statement "Doctor, heal thyself." (that one made me laugh, I must admit) I already answered this one before, but I don't mind reiterating it here. I was raised christian, and even though I stopped going to church very young, I did maintain a belief in god. Or at the very least I gave no thought to god. Church, religion, and god, were just not relevant to my life. It was only after becoming a Freemason that I began to really take a look at religions, and religious beliefs. So I could say that my membership in the fraternity did a great deal to push me over the edge into full on atheism. I did go through a transition. I went from having been raised christian, to agnostic, to deist, and finally to atheist. I have always considered the fact that I could be wrong. I still consider it to this day. I don't think it is very likely that I am, but yes, of course I could be wrong. The interesting thing that I have found in talking with the religious is that the vast majority of them have never even considered that they could be wrong. Or even made the least concession that another faith could be more accurate than their own. Not only that, but many of them believe, and are not afraid to tell me, that I am going to hell because I do not believe. Can no one else see the one way thinking, and arrogance of this?

Thank you to those who have wished me well, and I return well wishes of my own. I hope this post is mild enough for everyone.

Again, apologies to Grim for hijacking the thread for what seems to have become no more than a debate between myself and a few others. Should anyone care to continue this discussion, I am available via private message.

With that I'll close, and turn the thread back over to the discussion of the soul.

"It is humanity that creates god, and men think that god has made them in his image, because they make him in theirs."

...Which leads me to the statement that the religions, and religious beliefs are not the problem, but only the fundamentalists, and extremists. I can't believe that you honestly believe that to be true..? What do you think the fundamentalists and extremists are following? The texts, and dogmas of the religions themselves! Just because the majority of the religious are sane and intelligent enough to know better than to follow these texts and dogmas literally, doesn't make the texts and dogmas associated with the religions ok. So again I say, remove the religions, their dogmas, their totalitarianism, and their sadomasochism, and you remove the problem. Of course humanity is abundant with other issues that plague our societies, and humanity in general, but no one can argue that throwing off all the superstitious religious dogma and leaving it in the bronze and iron ages where they belong, wouldn't do a great deal to improve our ability to bring people together and solve the real, and more important issues of humanity.

No matter what you might try to remove from the reading list of the human population, you shall always have self-proclaimed militants emerge, many fighting some imaginary windmill, thrusting some just cause into the faces of their targets and causing major suffering as a result of their unsubdued passions.

... Not only that, but many of them believe, and are not afraid to tell me, that I am going to hell because I do not believe. Can no one else see the one way thinking, and arrogance of this?

Of course it's arrogant. It's judgmental, uncivil and uncalled for... very much like what you were apologizing for in your post.

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