This would not be a regional event, nor a backyard burn, but a response on the part of the LLC to a problem which was inevitably going to arise, and which I believe one of them raised as a concern a few years ago: population growth. Sooner or later, the day was going to come when the BLM was going to say "sorry, but we're just not going to let you cram any more people into this Wilderness area", and that day is here.

Solution: Why not just start up a second event? Have it meet at the same time as Burning Man, in a different remote location, at least 300 miles from Black Rock City, so that the BLM will be happy and willing to talk. Hold onto the ten principles for the second event, but lose the Man, himself, so that one doesn't reduce Burning Man to being a franchise. The main burn, itself, remains unique, as it should, but one holds onto the participatory, community building art focused autonomous zone concept that is the core of burning - which is what I believe that most of the people without tickets really are upset about missing out on.

Obviously, the LLC couldn't possibly put such an event together in the limited time available this year, but this year's problem will probably be back the next. Set up the secondary event, renting enough space for a small event - say, 1,000 people, small enough that even in the worst plausible scenario, there won't be so many tickets left unsold that the LLC will take much of a loss the first year. Then, when people try to order tickets for Burning Man, and have to be told that those have all been sold, offer to sell them tickets for the second event. Maybe even price them a little lower, maybe at the level that was charged for the main event, when it was the same size, adjusting that price for inflation.

At that point, the otherwise excluded burners would be getting some of the experience that they were hoping for. Some might even be pleased by the substitution. Not everybody has been happy with the changes that have been seen at Burning Man, as one can see just by lurking in some of the fora. The smaller second event, to them, might be seen as a chance to get back to what Burning Man used to be like, before the (fill in whatever somebody doesn't like) showed up. Sort of a fresh start.

Last edited by Here and there on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't really see the BMOrg as having the extra staff and resources available to effectively run two such events at the same time at different locations. It's not that they're not good people, and that they don't have lots of expertise in the necessary logistics, it's just that there aren't enough people to go round.

Regardless of the logistics involved or anything else, this does belong under Regionals & Events, what with being discussion about an event and all.

trilobyte wrote:It's not that they're not good people, and that they don't have lots of expertise in the necessary logistics, it's just that there aren't enough people to go round.

In a community of 50,000 people, with maybe another 200,000 past attendees, there aren't enough people to go around? I'm sure that qualified volunteers could be found, if the LLC were to look, and if it is willing to grow along with the population it serves. What else has Burning Man been running on for years, other than the labor of volunteers recruited from its community?

I say: godspeed to anyone who wants to start a new Burn or Regional . . . but no one should imagine that the only reason another Burn of this size doesn't already take place 20 miles away is just 'cause no one's thought of it yet.

It's because it's friggin' difficult. It's still amazing that the first one exists.

Of course, there always is another alternative. Wasn't there somebody over on Tribe, talking about having people gather outside of Burning Man, out on the open Playa beyond the trash fence, just a few years ago? Then somebody else talking about having a "run for the border" (ie. people barging into Burning Man en masse) which would be a lot harder to get under control if a few thousand people were running?

Not in favor of this, but when people feel they haven't been given good alternatives, they tend to make their own, and that can get destructive. Ever see a crowd outside of an overpromoted and sold out concert tearing the fence apart to get in? I have. It wasn't pretty. Defeatism is not a good reason to let a bad situation fester.

Savannah wrote:If I were the LLC, I wouldn't (personally) be interested in splitting my efforts--and your idea about the BLM (if it's true) would only reinforce my disinterest.

The BLM is not being unreasonable. 50,000 people is the population of a fair sized city. Doubling that would start to get one into major city territory, more than enough people to do real damage to a fragile wilderness. They had to set the cap somewhere.

Should the LLC have made a fuss about the fact that the BLM had reasonable concerns and acted on them, after the BLM had already given so much ground to the LLC, already? How, realistically, should one expect the BLM to react to such a stance? One might remember that the BLM does have to approve the permit, for the event to take place at all. Antagonize them enough, and the show is over.

trilobyte wrote:How about instead of sitting in your chair, posting about what other people should do and organize, you go do and organize something yourself?

Ooooh. Knee jerk reactions. I love those ever so much. They add so much to the conversation, especially when they're about points that have already been addressed, in the very discussion in which they're seen.

Did I take in millions of dollars in ticket sales, last year, Trilobyte? Do I have a vast network of volunteers who've been working together for decades? Do I have the name recognition that would bring in the crowds that would make an event like Burning Man possible? Suggestions are pitched to those who would be best prepared to act on them. As I've already said, more or less, and as I really shouldn't have had to. If a prospective homeowner asks about the cost of electricity in a neighborhood, do you ask him why he doesn't build his own power plant, or do you accept that some jobs are too big for lone individuals, and that's why people work together and form organizations?

Is there anything I've just told you, that you really didn't already know, or is this all common sense? I've noticed that you seem to be fond of playing dumb, just to get a rise out of people.

trilobyte wrote:How about instead of sitting in your chair, posting about what other people should do and organize, you go do and organize something yourself?

Ooooh. Knee jerk reactions. I love those ever so much. They add so much to the conversation, especially when they're about points that have already been addressed, in the very discussion in which they're seen.

Did I take in millions of dollars in ticket sales, last year, Trilobyte? Do I have a vast network of volunteers who've been working together for decades? Do I have the name recognition that would bring in the crowds that would make an event like Burning Man possible? Suggestions are pitched to those who would be best prepared to act on them. As I've already said, more or less, and as I really shouldn't have had to. If a prospective homeowner asks about the cost of electricity in a neighborhood, do you ask him why he doesn't build his own power plant, or do you accept that some jobs are too big for lone individuals, and that's why people work together and form organizations?

Is there anything I've just told you, that you really didn't already know, or is this all common sense? I've noticed that you seem to be fond of playing dumb, just to get a rise out of people.

I disagree, I don't think you've addressed that point fairly. You've said that someone else has resourced they could use to put your idea into reality, but it's also been mentioned in this very thread that the current existing Borg can't handle the extra work load.

It may be the case that it would be easier for the Borg to start up another event than for you to, but that doesn't make it the most effective.

I built a house that was in the mountains. It ran on solar power. That job was not too big for a lone individual.

Regardless of how hard or easy it is to do something, this is a do-acracy. Do it yourself, or join the Borg and convince them to do it from the inside out. Just about every Burner has ideas about how someone else could be doing things differently. If you REALLY cared about your idea, you could make it happen.

Is there anything I've told you that you really didn't already know? It's all just common sense. I've noticed that you seem to be fond of playing dumb to get a rise out of people.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

People. Burning Man is an example. Here is what you can accomplish with a little imagination and spunk! It started out as a free event.

I would be disappointed if other events arose as Burning Man clones. There's enough creativity to go around.

I proposed going out to Ocean Beach, claiming a firepit, opening a case of beer, and whipping out a couple of drums. Someone said "We call that a beach party." Well, so be it, that's how it all started, isn't it? And it doesn't have to be big to be meaningful.

A Jester wrote:I disagree, I don't think you've addressed that point fairly.

And what does that autobiographical detail have to do with anything else?

A Jester wrote:You've said that someone else has resourced they could use to put your idea into reality, but it's also been mentioned in this very thread that the current existing Borg can't handle the extra work load.

No, it's been alleged. If you can't or won't get a distinction that simple, then any attempt to reason with you obviously has nowhere to go. In the end, there is no way for me to keep you from covering your ears and yelling "no, no, no, no" while spouting cliches, and there's no reason for me to try.

A Jester wrote:I built a house that was in the mountains. It ran on solar power. That job was not too big for a lone individual.

And this is relevant because ...? Again, how much of a rebuttal does an emotional outburst need or deserve?

Last edited by Here and there on Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"There will be an alternative to Burning Man this year for all the orphaned un-ticketed Burners out there.PermaBurn is usually occupied most of the month of August with Burners getting ready, and much of September for those recovering. This year PermaBurn will also provide an alternative venue DURING Burning Man for those who don't manage to get a ticket, or for those who just want a change of experience."

A Jester wrote:Regardless of how hard or easy it is to do something, this is a do-acracy.

In other words, your view is that the facts are beside the point.

A Jester wrote:Do it yourself, or join the Borg and convince them to do it from the inside out.

Case in point, and by the way, they hate being called "the Borg", I'm told. Google "Star Trek" and "Borg" and you'll see why. It's really a very insulting thing to call them.

Whether I can join the Burning Man LLC or not is not up to me. It's up to the Burning Man LLC. Not that I'm nominating myself.

A Jester wrote:Just about every Burner has ideas about how someone else could be doing things differently.

You really have that much trouble understanding the idea of a suggestion? Really? How about "a discussion"? You know, that thing that grown ups do in the course of planning something, all of the time? If people are going to do something together, by definition, that involves them talking about what they are going to do, and since "us" and "me" aren't synonymous for anybody without multiply personality disorder, this implies that each of them will end up offering thoughts about what other people might be doing.

So, we have you on a board dedicated to a community building event taking the position that the members of the community should not show any signs of having moved past the parallel play stage of human development. I will leave it to you to ponder the inherent contradictions in that, and maybe even try to grasp the idea that discussing an idea that something might be done is the first step in making it happen. But you'll have to do it in my absence, because whether you're genuinely this stupid or are just having fun pretending that you are, either way your sole contribution has been to create a disruption and get in the way. You aren't worth my time. Goodbye.

And I'm out of here, at least as far as this conversation goes. When I find myself fighting an uphill battle just to get adults to act and think like ... people who aren't toddlers any more (note earlier comments about parallel play) ... where does this discussion have to go? But let me leave you with a thought.

Boys and girls - it's absolutely possible for Larry Harvey to be wrong. If you really think that an out of context quotation of the ten principles is what constitutes common sense, then you are failing to function even on a grade school level. If the best that can be found as full grown - in at least one case, elderly - adults fail to do so is for somebody else to bravely call on people to take the views they've already publicly expressed, then nothing resembling a sensible conversation has any chance to take place. But then, that's the idea, isn't it?

Here and there wrote:You really have that much trouble understanding the idea of a suggestion? Really? How about "a discussion"? You know, that thing that grown ups do in the course of planning something, all of the time?

You do realize of course, as a grown up, that discussing or suggesting anything on the ePlaya is basically just typing to hear your keyboard click. The BMorg only comes in here when there's a controversy they want to try to get control of. They certainly don't read the threads or care any more what we say about the future of the event than they do any random Burner sitting in camp saying the same thing.

You know what- I'm fine with that. I like the playground they provide, I'll keep going to it as long as I like it. If you don't like it, don't go. If you think it can be done better or differently you can organize your own event or start a regional. Honestly, California could use an actual regional (though I'm not sure where you're from).

Feel free to type fantastic ideas until your fingers bleed. Even if every single person on the board thought it was Brilliant! (which is a consensus that would be earthshaking on it's own) the BMorg wouldn't hear it, and if by some major alignment of planets they did hear about it, it would still get tossed in the pile with the thousands of other Brilliant! ideas they hear.

BTW- I've never said Larry is right about everything (or even most things). However- it's his party, so he gets to decide what direction it goes. Once the non-profit board takes over in 5 years that may change, but I bet they have it rigged so it doesn't.

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Here and there wrote: When I find myself fighting an uphill battle just to get adults to act and think like ... people who aren't toddlers any more

The whole overflow idea seems like a toddler's response to no more cookies. Another similar event, in the same environment, at the same time? they ran out. no more. no more cookies. o.k.?so, no, we can't just put more cookies somewhere else. because they ran out.

There's so little intellectual honesty or adherence to logic in any of your posts, that I'm just going to politely ask for someone to nominate any particular one of them or I'll just not bother. I'll happily respond to one set of your fallacies, but I can already see that you'd win a spam war.

I can't help but love that you seem like you take yourself seriously while insulting someone who has engaged you in a debate, while almost in the same sentence complaining that no one will act like an adult and have a discussion with you. Your responses do seem to have a bit of polish on them. I imagine you must have this problem all the time.

ZaphodBurner wrote:The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.

Absolutely, I made a knee jerk reaction to a post from someone who wants something and thinks other people should do something about that, regardless of whether it's something they have an interest in doing or not. Please don't take it as personal, I'd say the same to anyone who suggested it.

Of course you probably don't have the resources to pull off something on that scale. It's taken the BMOrg and the community that participates in it 25 years to get this far. It would take a prohibitively ridiculous amount of resources to even attempt such an endeavor (not just duplication of staff, but building and warehousing infrastructure and all the permitting and logistics) to do a second event at the same time. That doesn't mean that you couldn't start something. Start small, put in the work, get bigger. Look at what The Do Lab has done in the last 7-8 years in Southern California - creative events in the local area, which eventually begat a weekend campout. and has since evolved into a pretty large memorial day weekend campout. This year's Lightning In A Bottle event drew 14,000 people. They started from zero as well, it can certainly be done.

There's another gathering type burn very near to Burning Man. No need to keep wishing, at least for this year.

Granted, it's not going to be organized like Burning Man. It also is not 300+ miles away, as suggested earlier in this thread. This gathering is about 20 miles away. I haven't found a ticket so far at face-value and if I can't find one by Gerlach then I'm going West to the Smoke Creek Desert, approximately 10-15 miles I believe from Gerlach.

Somebody named Guy Fawkes did start organizing this separate gathering. There's no entry cost, so there's no permit necessary. It's just a bunch of burners camping out together nearby. Take a look at the sites below and give it a thought.