Was re-watcing China 06 last night ... JB went from 7th to 4th in two laps right at the end of the race when it started to rain again... including a double overtake aided by backmarkers on the final lap... it was sensational.

I never really paid very close attention to JB before he started driving for Macca (I only really focus on how the macca drivers are doing in live races - and I might catch up with the others on a rewatch) so I missed that he is seriously talented.

When he gets it together he can be really special ... but most of the time he does not do full justice to his talent.

...I wonder if he has issues motivating himself when things are not set up nicely for him.

The main thing I think Jenson is missing generally is that natural aggression most of the greats have. Be it in wheel to wheel battles or over one lap...He can conjure it from time to time but not always.... it looks like something he overlooked/disregarded coming up as a kid, it is not something ingrained in his mentality or approach.

Like he said, he favored the Prost like thing and always wanted to be the steady hand.

He is very talented and if you give him dominant cars he will put them where they belong race in race out.

But I think in the position he is in now, it is that aggression thing that could hurt him most in this phase of his career, he is probably stuck with Lewis. Winning races or WDC is no more dependent on having a great car, he will have to beat his teammate and in other to do that IMO, he will have to start having more of the China 06, Brazil 09s. Taking chances on track not just in setup/strategy. Daring to cross that line from solid/very good to great a bit more than usual.

No surprises he wants to stay at Mac though, I dont think there is a better fitting team for him all round nor better deal elsewhere. The only fly in the ointment is that Lewis guy...im not sure he would enjoy it long term if what happened in 2010 keeps happening and that is not exactly impossible

IMO if (big if) Lewis decides to leave after 2012 McLaren probably tries to sign Vettel (MW likes him) or di Resta, or probably some young talent like de Vriesif Lewis leaves them they need a new figurehead, Button is not "exiting" and marketable enough to full fill this role alone without any more exiting team mate

I think it's not unreasonable to expect Rosberg to be as good as JB. Certainly, in qualifying I could see him having an edge. Suggesting Buemi might beat him though is pretty funny

I've always thought both Glock and Heidfeld would make good replacements for JB, but it would mean a reversion to having a clear 1/2 dynamic in the team. I'm pretty sure either of those guys would do a better job than HK did, their race pace is superior.

IMO if (big if) Lewis decides to leave after 2012 McLaren probably tries to sign Vettel (MW likes him) or di Resta, or probably some young talent like de Vriesif Lewis leaves them they need a new figurehead, Button is not "exiting" and marketable enough to full fill this role alone without any more exiting team mate

Just so i'm not mistaken can I clarify this - you believe MW 'dislikes' LH, and yet you also believe he likes Vettel, who he's gone on record calling him the 'crash kid'?

Jenson is very good but he is not "wow". He has surprised me by being very close to Hamilton and occasionally even better, but while Jenson on a good day can beat Hamilton when he is a bit off, Hamilton on his day can beat anyone when they are at their best. So can Vettel and, maybe, Alonso.

Before anyone gets hung up on the seemingly illogical statement that both Hamilton and Vettel can beat each other when they are both driving at the top of their game I might need to remind you that there is elements of both chance and luck involved.

So what I mean is basically that Button is more a DC than a Hakkinen, more a Heidfeld than an Alonso. He will have a good career, but there will always be someone standing a bit closer to the limelight.

In terms of raw talent Jenson is not in the same class as Hakkinen (or Hamilton). He reminds me more of Damon Hill or David Coulthard - a competent, but unspectacular driver, who can be very mediocre but also occasionally pull out top class drives that you almost didn't expect he was capable of. As long as he's paired with Hamilton I don't think he'll win another title but he'll continue to take a few wins here and there and be near the top of the "second tier" of people in F1. Along with Webber, he also seems to be one of the more down to earth drivers on the grid.

In terms of raw talent Jenson is not in the same class as Hakkinen (or Hamilton). He reminds me more of Damon Hill or David Coulthard - a competent, but unspectacular driver, who can be very mediocre but also occasionally pull out top class drives that you almost didn't expect he was capable of. As long as he's paired with Hamilton I don't think he'll win another title but he'll continue to take a few wins here and there and be near the top of the "second tier" of people in F1. Along with Webber, he also seems to be one of the more down to earth drivers on the grid.

So winning 6 back to back races and WDC comfortably in second best / occasionally best car in 2009 is not spectacular. enough.If we go by that logic then Schumi wasnt spectacular as well.

So winning 6 back to back races and WDC comfortably in second best / occasionally best car in 2009 is not spectacular. enough.If we go by that logic then Schumi wasnt spectacular as well.

"Spectacular" means different for all of us, but when I think back on Schumi's first 10 years in F1 I would definitely say it was spectacular. You could never count him out, not even if he was in a car that was not the best on the grid. The BrawnGP was a spectacular car and Jenson did good, but IMO he was not spectacular. And if he was spectacular then, he was not before and has not been it after.

So winning 6 back to back races and WDC comfortably in second best / occasionally best car in 2009 is not spectacular. enough.If we go by that logic then Schumi wasnt spectacular as well.

Please give over on trotting out the same old nonsense about Button. The Brawn started 2009 much faster than all of the other cars, he won 6 out of the first 7 races, no one does that in a second rate car. Button is not a great driver - get over it.

Just so i'm not mistaken can I clarify this - you believe MW 'dislikes' LH, and yet you also believe he likes Vettel, who he's gone on record calling him the 'crash kid'?

The one has nothing to do with the other, in both casesHaven't you read that interview with MW where he said he would try to sign Vettel if he was available?

There was recently an interview with Nico Rosbergs former Finnish manager (I forgot the name and have no link only my memory) he compared Vettel & Lewis, and he said that both are very fast, talented etcBut probably they would fit very well, or even better at each others teams, regarding their personalitiesLewis is more emotional, drives with heart and feelings, big fighter , while Vettel is very systematical and drives like a clock, machine like methodicalLike the young wild RBRs and the cool caluculating "coldish" McLaren's

So winning 6 back to back races and WDC comfortably in second best / occasionally best car in 2009 is not spectacular. enough.If we go by that logic then Schumi wasnt spectacular as well.

Second best car? Please. For the first half of the season it was by far the best car and Jenson did a great job with it. In the second half of the season he bottled it and did his best to lose the championship, regularly being behind where the car belonged. imo Jenson had, all in all, a better season in 2010 than he did in 2009.

As for Schumacher - I hardly remember a single race of his from 2002 or 2004 except the scandalous ones involving orchestrated finishes. Easy dominance is never spectacular. But when I think of him in the years when he didn't have a dominant car then I recall races like Spain 96, Hungary 98, Malaysia 99, Suzuka 2000, where he was exceptional. Those are the performances that stand out. I don't remember anything like that from Button throughout his career. Hence I call him unspectacular.

Second best car? Please. For the first half of the season it was by far the best car and Jenson did a great job with it. In the second half of the season he bottled it and did his best to lose the championship, regularly being behind where the car belonged. imo Jenson had, all in all, a better season in 2010 than he did in 2009.

As for Schumacher - I hardly remember a single race of his from 2002 or 2004 except the scandalous ones involving orchestrated finishes. Easy dominance is never spectacular. But when I think of him in the years when he didn't have a dominant car then I recall races like Spain 96, Hungary 98, Malaysia 99, Suzuka 2000, where he was exceptional. Those are the performances that stand out. I don't remember anything like that from Button throughout his career. Hence I call him unspectacular.

So that's the point. If you are so much better than others- you cant come across as spectacular - Strange.. no?What could Jenson have done ? Botch a few races and then people would think - damn he is brilliant !

About the cars Brawn and RB5 were even keel in most races with RB5 having an advantage in more races than Brawn.Macca was there too towards the end of the season.

Let's also not get carried away with the "dominance" line about 2009. If you re-watch those 2009 races, not that many of them were straightforward. Yes, they had the best car for the first half of the year, but qualifying was done with fuel so they had to try to cover multiple teams at once, as well as having to worry about any KERS cars in the top 6 jumping at the start. Hardly easy to do.

Lack of dollars prevented BrawnGP from fixing the tyre warmup problem - this was the cause of a lot of Jenson's concern and likely contributed to his drop off of form (which also wasn't as bad as many state - his finishes versus Rubens were 4-4 for the last eight races).

I also don't get the "Rosberg is better than Button" idea that some have. Based on what, exactly? Yes, he's gotten the better of Schumacher at MercedesGP, but what does that mean? He's looked good doing it, but I don't see anything that indicates he's better than Jenson. I would love to hear Ross really compare these two drivers honestly (which can't happen, of course). I would guess that they're similar in pace but Jenson's race pace consistency would make him the better of the two at this point.

Let's also not get carried away with the "dominance" line about 2009. If you re-watch those 2009 races, not that many of them were straightforward. Yes, they had the best car for the first half of the year, but qualifying was done with fuel so they had to try to cover multiple teams at once, as well as having to worry about any KERS cars in the top 6 jumping at the start. Hardly easy to do.

Lack of dollars prevented BrawnGP from fixing the tyre warmup problem - this was the cause of a lot of Jenson's concern and likely contributed to his drop off of form (which also wasn't as bad as many state - his finishes versus Rubens were 4-4 for the last eight races).

I have to agree with you on this part. Having watched the 09 season again, a short while ago, the Brawn was the first fastest car for only Australia and malasyia. It then became more track dependant with the Red bull and Brawn differing in superiority depending on the track, and then ending with the Red Bull as the better car.With Australia, its not always about the car, and Vettel in the Red Bull qualified second. He only slipped back, and crashed with Kubica because he was unable to manage the supersoft tyres as well as Button. In Malaysia-Fair enough.In China, The Red Bulls were faster. Hence the 1-2In Bahrain, Vettel was faster, and had qualified on the heavier fuel, but was scuppered by Lewis qualifying so high, jumping him at the start, and keeping him behind him for the first stint, which allowed Button to run away with it, once he overtook Trulli.In Monoco, many expected Vettel to get pole, but he made a mistake during quali and missed out, thus givng Jenson the chance to win.In Turkey, Vettel qualified on Pole, but made a mistake going around turn 8, and Button overtook him and kept the lead.

The Red bull definitely became the fastest car, and the Brawn for whatever reason slipped behind. This was compunded by the rise of McLaren(Lewis) in the second half, Toyato and Ferrari being somewhere around.

In my opinion Jenson did very well, he capatalised on having the fastest car, and the mistakes of his opponents. He also demonstrated extreme damage limitation, so when he messed up in qualifying he could always make up for it. I think he is underestimated a lot, and the fact he can stay mostly within 3 tenths of Lewis (The Driving God) is to his credit, especially considering how much Lewis destroyed Kova.

I have to agree with you on this part. Having watched the 09 season again, a short while ago, the Brawn was the first fastest car for only Australia and malasyia. It then became more track dependant with the Red bull and Brawn differing in superiority depending on the track, and then ending with the Red Bull as the better car.With Australia, its not always about the car, and Vettel in the Red Bull qualified second. He only slipped back, and crashed with Kubica because he was unable to manage the supersoft tyres as well as Button. In Malaysia-Fair enough.In China, The Red Bulls were faster. Hence the 1-2In Bahrain, Vettel was faster, and had qualified on the heavier fuel, but was scuppered by Lewis qualifying so high, jumping him at the start, and keeping him behind him for the first stint, which allowed Button to run away with it, once he overtook Trulli.In Monoco, many expected Vettel to get pole, but he made a mistake during quali and missed out, thus givng Jenson the chance to win.In Turkey, Vettel qualified on Pole, but made a mistake going around turn 8, and Button overtook him and kept the lead.

The Red bull definitely became the fastest car, and the Brawn for whatever reason slipped behind. This was compunded by the rise of McLaren(Lewis) in the second half, Toyato and Ferrari being somewhere around.

In my opinion Jenson did very well, he capatalised on having the fastest car, and the mistakes of his opponents. He also demonstrated extreme damage limitation, so when he messed up in qualifying he could always make up for it. I think he is underestimated a lot, and the fact he an stay mostly within 3 tenths of Lewis is to his credit, considering how much Lewis destroyed Kova.

I have to agree with you on this part. Having watched the 09 season again, a short while ago, the Brawn was the first fastest car for only Australia and malasyia. It then became more track dependant with the Red bull and Brawn differing in superiority depending on the track, and then ending with the Red Bull as the better car.With Australia, its not always about the car, and Vettel in the Red Bull qualified second. He only slipped back, and crashed with Kubica because he was unable to manage the supersoft tyres as well as Button. In Malaysia-Fair enough.In China, The Red Bulls were faster. Hence the 1-2In Bahrain, Vettel was faster, and had qualified on the heavier fuel, but was scuppered by Lewis qualifying so high, jumping him at the start, and keeping him behind him for the first stint, which allowed Button to run away with it, once he overtook Trulli.In Monoco, many expected Vettel to get pole, but he made a mistake during quali and missed out, thus givng Jenson the chance to win.In Turkey, Vettel qualified on Pole, but made a mistake going around turn 8, and Button overtook him and kept the lead.

The Red bull definitely became the fastest car, and the Brawn for whatever reason slipped behind. This was compunded by the rise of McLaren(Lewis) in the second half, Toyato and Ferrari being somewhere around.

In my opinion Jenson did very well, he capatalised on having the fastest car, and the mistakes of his opponents. He also demonstrated extreme damage limitation, so when he messed up in qualifying he could always make up for it. I think he is underestimated a lot, and the fact he can stay mostly within 3 tenths of Lewis (The Driving God) is to his credit, especially considering how much Lewis destroyed Kova.

I agree. Winning 6 out of 7 was a fantastic achievement.

He is definitely consistant the holy smooth one and being a couple of tenths behind TDG is nothing to be ashamed of as after all he is The God of Driving.

Under what circumstance has either Buemi or Hulkenberg performed to a level you expect would beat Button?

I agree, Nico might be a match for Button but unless they are paired up we will never know, Nico is in the same boat Button was in for years. A good car, but never good enough, and so that was the idea about his talent. Kobayashi is imo a very good driver, but again he needs to be paired with a respectable team-mate before we judge.

IMO if (big if) Lewis decides to leave after 2012 McLaren probably tries to sign Vettel (MW likes him) or di Resta, or probably some young talent like de Vriesif Lewis leaves them they need a new figurehead, Button is not "exiting" and marketable enough to full fill this role alone without any more exiting team mate

That's funny. MW could hire MW too. Don't be so lazy. 'Webber' or 'Whitmarsh' is not that long to type.

To try to claim it was only occasionally best is a new kind of reality on me 7 wins to brawn 6 to RBR but lets not forget half of RBR's wins came in the last three races

Well if the Brawn was that dominant why wasn't endless 1-2's in the first half of the season? the fact that remains that it was Jenson who made the difference, when you look at the numbers and fuel adjusted times the RBR was pretty much the better package by bahrain(give or take the odd race), it was just that jensons was able to pull the qualy laps out when it mattered and Red Bull continuously putting too much fuel in their car for Q3 meaning the qualyed near the KERs cars, leaving them pray to the KERs cars at the start which they kept on getting stuck behind.

Sure, towards the end of the season JB struggled to get the best out of the package but he isn't the first and certainly won't be the last driver to get the jitters when you know you are close to achieving your goal.

Some drivers need good equipment to get the best out of them and then they can dominate. Many people don't rate Damon Hill but the guy came from the last generation of gentlemen racers and lead the team amazingly well after the death of Senna, despite Patrick Head's open dissent for him.

He knew how to lead a race well. When Williams started their wilderness years, I remember the top guy at Renault wishing they had Damon back, he knew how good a racer he was, looking well after the engine and keeping his cool when out front (yes he made a few booboos like Monza but who doesn't crack occasionally? Even Schumi has).

Jenson showed the same skills when that Brawn was on fire. He totally annihilated Boobens who is not a crap racer at all. And when the car waned, he still brought the points home. Everyone was going on about him "losing it". Well, what else can you do when your car is just becoming slower and slower? Just keep at it and don't lose your cool and he tried his best to do that. We saw that magnificent drive he did in Brazil.

So that's the point. If you are so much better than others- you cant come across as spectacular - Strange.. no?What could Jenson have done ? Botch a few races and then people would think - damn he is brilliant !

It was the car that was much better than the rest, not Jenson. And I already said that he did a good job with it.My point was that up to that stage in his career, and after it, he's never done anything to suggest he's one of the best drivers in F1.

It was the car that was much better than the rest, not Jenson. And I already said that he did a good job with it.My point was that up to that stage in his career, and after it, he's never done anything to suggest he's one of the best drivers in F1.

Winning a WDC title entitles you to go into one of the best in F1 category, no matter how good the car was. And anyways, that car was no more dominant than RBR last season or Ferrari in 2002. and 2004. or Renault in 2005., just to name a few recent dominant cars.

Winning a WDC title entitles you to go into one of the best in F1 category, no matter how good the car was. And anyways, that car was no more dominant than RBR last season or Ferrari in 2002. and 2004. or Renault in 2005., just to name a few recent dominant cars.

indeed...I find it hard to justify putting Vettel in the top echelon but not Button....Button won the WDC with a less dominant car

Now Button wants to end his career at Mclaren.But lets face it, what other options does he have?Every TP who has seen Button's performance relative to Hamilton, will finally agree with Briatore who could tell that Button was only as good as a number 2 driver.

Of course he won the championship for BrawnGP and Barichello's moans where heavier than his ballasts, but I can assure you that, Mercedes, ex BrawnGp, now rate Rosberg much more highly than they rated Button.Right now, Whitmarsh is suffering from Nick Fry syndrome. He is also doing his best to slow down Hamilton, so Button can catch up. I have never seen where a team makes every effort to placate their slower driver at the expense of the much faster and reliable one.

Lets not forget that, Withmarsh all but castrated every sense of normalcy Hamilton could have enjoyed as an incumbent, all in the name of equality. Even to the extent of abandoning a proper focus on Hamilton's race strategy, just so they can direct their attention to get their slower driver to finish in a much better position. This focus has resulted in Mclaren losing many opportunities to challenge for the win while Lewis was trailing Vettel.

If Whitmarsh continues with such an attitude, Mclaren will fail to win any championship. You get 25 points for a win. Manipulating your strategy to get your drivers to finish in formation, will only get you 3rd and 4th positions at best, or probably even worse.Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are working to improve their cars and finishing positions, so a failure to take advantage of your good fortune will only bring you misery further along the road.

Winning a WDC title entitles you to go into one of the best in F1 category, no matter how good the car was. And anyways, that car was no more dominant than RBR last season or Ferrari in 2002. and 2004. or Renault in 2005., just to name a few recent dominant cars.

Totally disagree on the first part. No one, and I mean no one, could rate Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve as one of the best drivers in F1 history although both have a WDC. Damon Hill was not far off a second a lap slower than Senna in their couple of races together, which more or less ends that argument, while Villeneuve very nearly lost the title to Schumacher, despite having the best car in 1997.

Your second point is correct, the RBR and Ferrari of 2002-4 were at least as good as the Brawn. There is not a single driver out there who can win a title without a good car, but that's not the same thing as saying everyone who gets a good car is automatically a great driver.

Now Button wants to end his career at Mclaren.But lets face it, what other options does he have?Every TP who has seen Button's performance relative to Hamilton, will finally agree with Briatore who could tell that Button was only as good as a number 2 driver.

Of course he won the championship for BrawnGP and Barichello's moans where heavier than his ballasts, but I can assure you that, Mercedes, ex BrawnGp, now rate Rosberg much more highly than they rated Button.Right now, Whitmarsh is suffering from Nick Fry syndrome. He is also doing his best to slow down Hamilton, so Button can catch up. I have never seen where a team makes every effort to placate their slower driver at the expense of the much faster and reliable one.

Lets not forget that, Withmarsh all but castrated every sense of normalcy Hamilton could have enjoyed as an incumbent, all in the name of equality. Even to the extent of abandoning a proper focus on Hamilton's race strategy, just so they can direct their attention to get their slower driver to finish in a much better position. This focus has resulted in Mclaren losing many opportunities to challenge for the win while Lewis was trailing Vettel.

If Whitmarsh continues with such an attitude, Mclaren will fail to win any championship. You get 25 points for a win. Manipulating your strategy to get your drivers to finish in formation, will only get you 3rd and 4th positions at best, or probably even worse.Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are working to improve their cars and finishing positions, so a failure to take advantage of your good fortune will only bring you misery further along the road.

You're a brave man/woman presenting these views on here. But I agree with you. It is a shame IMO that the best driver - TDG - of our generation, might never win another WDC because of the ludicrous tactics of Whitmarsh.

You're a brave man/woman presenting these views on here. But I agree with you. It is a shame IMO that the best driver - TDG - of our generation, might never win another WDC because of the ludicrous tactics of Whitmarsh.

Now Button wants to end his career at Mclaren.But lets face it, what other options does he have?Every TP who has seen Button's performance relative to Hamilton, will finally agree with Briatore who could tell that Button was only as good as a number 2 driver.

Of course he won the championship for BrawnGP and Barichello's moans where heavier than his ballasts, but I can assure you that, Mercedes, ex BrawnGp, now rate Rosberg much more highly than they rated Button.Right now, Whitmarsh is suffering from Nick Fry syndrome. He is also doing his best to slow down Hamilton, so Button can catch up. I have never seen where a team makes every effort to placate their slower driver at the expense of the much faster and reliable one.

Lets not forget that, Withmarsh all but castrated every sense of normalcy Hamilton could have enjoyed as an incumbent, all in the name of equality. Even to the extent of abandoning a proper focus on Hamilton's race strategy, just so they can direct their attention to get their slower driver to finish in a much better position. This focus has resulted in Mclaren losing many opportunities to challenge for the win while Lewis was trailing Vettel.

If Whitmarsh continues with such an attitude, Mclaren will fail to win any championship. You get 25 points for a win. Manipulating your strategy to get your drivers to finish in formation, will only get you 3rd and 4th positions at best, or probably even worse.Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are working to improve their cars and finishing positions, so a failure to take advantage of your good fortune will only bring you misery further along the road.

As a Lewis Hamilton fan i sayMy respect for Jenson as a driver has gone up during the last year, and most of what your saying is quite frankly nothing but false conjecture and bullsh*t to anyone who has actually watched this year and last.

You're a brave man/woman presenting these views on here. But I agree with you. It is a shame IMO that the best driver - TDG - of our generation, might never win another WDC because of the ludicrous tactics of Whitmarsh.

You're a brave man/woman presenting these views on here. But I agree with you. It is a shame IMO that the best driver - TDG - of our generation, might never win another WDC because of the ludicrous tactics of Whitmarsh.

Well said.

In agreeing with that post you have just thrown away what little creditability you had left....

To believe that a McLaren team principal would actually sabotage his driver to help the other is ridiculous - we are not talking about a clown like Flavio here.

If hamilton never wins another WDc it wont be down to Whitmarsh stopping him.