Comments

Hopeitsfriday, sorry to start this man and leave you out there. Been a little tied up. Thought I would jump in and mention one thing understanding of course we will never agree. Let me just point something out that maybe is just to obvious. MDX, X5, QX4 GX470, RX300, LX470, G CLASS, M CLASS, XC90 - ALL considered Luxury vehicles. NOW... Rendezvous, Blazer, Durango, Explorer, Envoy, Pilot - All considered Midsize SUV's. Why have we changed the name of the Rendezous to RDV? Is it to make it appear to fit into the Luxury category or simply because the name is too long to keep typing for these message boards. You can argue where it belongs based on magazines, articles etc. Bottom line is once you ride in both the "RDV" belongs in the Midsize category and the MDX belongs in the luxury category. Edmunds obviously agrees that's why it has been placed in the Midsize category. If price was a determining feature with all the add on's that are mentioned for the "RDV" it should be placed perhaps in the luxury class as it has a pretty big price tag. The difference between the two became quite clear upon actually seeing and driving the 2 vehicles. If you are satisfied with what the "RDV" aka Rendezvous provides then buy it! If you want/need more then look at some of the luxury line to satisfy your needs. The price is pretty close. You can't compare base line to base line because there are different levels of what is considered base and neither vehicle has the same on any vehicles. But lets not get pouty about the category Edmunds and others have placed the Rendezvous. Merely accept it and be happy you got what you considered a good deal on your opinion of luxury. If you really don't like it then petition Edmunds to change the category. I stick with my initial reaction both before and after checking out said vehicles up close. Nice ride, not quite luxury. Hopeitsfriday, my friend, didn't mean to get them on you again. Thanks for taking up my slack. Wow, one comment! Happy motoring all and whatever you drive, it's obviously luxury to you regardless of what others call it!

RDV certainly is shortened because we hate typing Rendezvous all over again....it's pretty hard typing that one....hands all over the place.

I agree with your assesmenet that you have to load the "RDV" (like the BMW X5, Volvo XC90), to be able to compare like amenities. But as stated on the price, in my previous 5 posts, the difference IS significant: $9500 between the RDV CXL Plus and MDX Touring. "The price is pretty close" if you're playing horseshoes or with hand grenades

When someone crashes in and makes an unsupported statement like: "Does the MDX actually fit into this category? The MB M class is smaller and isn't the MDX much more luxurious then the others mentioned here? Certainly more so than the RDV!", then you lose credibility yourself.

Per Edmunds: "all-wheel-drive-equipped Rendezvous CXLs at $28,027, significantly less than *similarly equipped* Acura MDXs ($34,850) and Lexus RX 300s ($36,150). Consumers shopping those vehicles have probably never even thought twice about a Buick, but the Rendezvous certainly presents an interesting package for them to consider"

Miks, wanted to clarify your previous post also, those cut/pasted comparison numbers that you posted were from two completly different comparos. eg. The braking, though in the details show equivalent distance stoppage, the scores of 4 ("RDV"), and 9 (MDX). Why? because different comparisons vehicles used, thus merely looking at the scoring that you did is invalid.

Getting back to the RDV vs MDX base comparison, those 3 options may not be options, even better they come standard, but none the less they are features that the RDV do not have. Therefore they should definitely be counted.Lets try to estimate some prices for these options or features from the two vehicles.

MDX: More powerful power train: I have claim number as high as $5000 and you as low as $1500. Let find a middle number here and go with it $3200, VSA system $800, locking differential $600 and more powerful HVAC system $400. Total = $5000.

Therefore, no matter how much we play around with those numbers. Anyone one can clearly see that the RDV should be compare to the MDX base not touring.

By the way, I hope you are not claiming that you can get one side of the RDV down to 68 deg and the other side up to 80 deg. That is totally against the law of thermo dynamics. Unless you have a piece of plexglass between the driver and the passenger sides.

How did I secure 3.5% financing? It is offered nationally, to people with good credit. Its a 5 years loan from Chase Manhattan Bank. Average rate right now is around 4%. That is all I care to discuss about my finance.

Miks is right, everyone's opinion of luxury vehicle is different, so is everyone's option of a expensive vehicle. But a bunch of options definitely does not add up to luxury. By the way, what have you got against plastic wood panels? The plood as you call it, on the MDX is very high quality on the 03. My old Jeep Grand Cherokee had the real cheap plood compare to the MDX. If real wood panel is what you are looking for, then may I point out that the Kia Sorento has real wood trims. Does that make the Kia a luxury SUV?

Dont worry about it, miks my friend, I dont think you start it at all. It all started as a friendly discussion about how much cheaper the RDV is , how Buick can make a SUV for such a low price and rather if it belongs in the same class as the rest of the SUVs on this board. Some think it is and some think it isn't as you can see already. Although pretty much everyone agrees that the X5, QX4, GX470, RX300, LX470, G Class, MDX, M class and XC90 are in the same class and maybe even the top of the line Ford Explorer / Mountaineer . The opinions from this board on rather or not the RDV belongs in this class has been mixed. As we all know by now thanks to montreid, the 04 RDV will have the much needed upgrade powertrain and perhaps some upgrade to its luxury items as well. I hope Buick will offer the larger engine as an option. If Buick offers as standard equipment, it may actually back fires on them. The typical Buick buyer value more in pricing than horsepower. I guess we will all have to wait and see.By the way miks, thanks for the backing.

Hopeitsfriday: Where in the world do you come up with your off-the-wall numbers? $500 for a heads-up display that is built-in to the dashboard and tied into the speedometer, stereo, lights, turn signals, fuel tank, etc.? (yeah, it shows radio station #'s, track and disc #'s, low fuel message, turn signals, etc.) Did you know that the RDV which has the HUD has a completely separate windshield to allow the HUD to display better? Just the special windshield costs more than $500! Not to mention the computer that runs it. And wiring, and labor, etc.

Dual zone climate control: yep, it really works. My wife likes it hot and I like it cool -- and no plexiglas between us (although that nice center console does separate the driver from the passenger pretty well. The temperature of the air coming out of the two sides can vary significantly.

By the way, the Detroit News is the 41st largest newspaper in the United States (based on circulation). It is not "... merely one newspaper out of 200 that are in circulation in the country, hardly worth even mentioning." The Gannett Corporation would differ with your opinion, as do I.

Boy, you RDV are like a tag team, I have never seen a bunch of owners so defensive about their cars.

Like I mention earlier, those numbers are estimated. Any how, how much do you think the heads up display is worth. $500 for the special windshield minus the standard cost of a window shield say $200 buck. That leaves us with $300 for the special wind shield. Computer that runs it maybe about $600 wholesale tops. Price of wires not even mentioning. And we did not include labor or design cost for any of the items we mentioned. Total for heads up display $1100, and thats a high number for debating sake. That leaves us with the RDV having $3300 in equipments that the MDX doesn't have and the MDX with $5000 in equipments that the RDV dont have. My point is again, no matter how you spin the numbers, you cannot make the RDV come out on top. All I was trying to do is convince some of you out there that a comparison of the RDV and the MDX base is very fair.

Yes, Dual zone climate control really works, just like front and rear climate control in the MDX. But not to the extend of what montreid claims. The digital display may tell you that one side is 68 deg. and the the other is 80 deg. That is the output air temperature of each side, it is not the actual temp of the driver and passenger compartment. Take a thermometer into your car and actually measure it where you would normally seat. It is impossible to have a 12 deg difference in such a small compartment like that. As anyone that took physic in college would knows. The hot are will consume the cold air and the mixing of the two air temperature makes it impossible to have such a temperature differential.

The Detroit News might be the 41st largest newspaper in the United States, but how big is their automotive column department, 2 or 3 people? Compare to magazines such as motor trend or car and drivers which employs hundreds of people.

Why would anyone want to remove their second roll seats when they can just fold it down?

The RDV's MPG rating is 18 city and 24 highway. Refer to the following reference.

None of the Rendezvous owners have attacked the MDX. Indeed several, including fedlawman, have complimented the vehicle. We like our Rendezous' and can appreciate the MDX. We don't have to tear down another person's choice to feel good about the choice we made. For you a powerful engine seems to be the deciding factor. For me, it was utility. The MDX simply wasn't big or comfortable enough for my needs while the Rendezvous has fit my family to a tee.

If we seem defensive, it's only because you continually attack and throw in provocative comments to boot. This "debate" went stale ages ago. It certainly appears that you feel the need to tear down the Rendezvous in order to feel good about the MDX?

"Why would anyone want to remove their second roll seats when they can just fold it down?"

Actually, I can fold down my RDV seats, 50% at a time OR I can remove either/both of them for major hauling. Why? Because sometimes I just might need additional cargo carrying capacity. 26.9 cu. ft. more than the MDX, to be exact -- 32.8% more than the MDX. That is significant!

This is funny. First, The Detroit News is not big enough or respectable enough. Now that I've enlightened you and you know that it's the 41st largest newspaper in the U.S., you claim their automotive editorial staff isn't big enough. Yeah -- thanks for the laugh!

When valuing the extras, ask yourself how much would you pay for them separately. I don't really care how much is cost to have the trip computer installed by GM in my old Olds (warranty paid $1,300 to replace in 1988), it was only worth about $150 to me (which happens to coincide with the sticker price of that option). HUD for me, big deal. If it has it cool, if not cool.

Off topic now: 41st largest newspaper in the country? There are only 50 states. Sounds to me like being jazzed up about being number 41 is because you are trying to cater to a small reader group.

Let's stick to the facts. Even better, let's move on. Anyone want to discuss the ULEV qualities? Personally I don't care at all about that. Don't really care about fuel economy either. How about global warming? Personally I am pro-global warming, even though it's a farce. I imaging that's were this discussion will be in a few days!

"Off topic now: 41st largest newspaper in the country? There are only 50 states. Sounds to me like being jazzed up about being number 41 is because you are trying to cater to a small reader group."

Actually, the reason I brought this up was that hopeitsfriday said being named Truck of the Year by the Detroit News was not an important award because the Detroit News was "... merely one newspaper out of 200 that are in circulation in the country, hardly worth even mentioning." I think it warranted clarification that it was not merely one of the top 200 newspapers, but one of the Top 50 -- that's a pretty big difference (by a factor of 4), especially in terms of circulation and respectability. You suggest we "stick to the facts" ... and that's all I'm trying to do.

Some things are never good enough for some people, especially when those things don't support a person's point of view.

I view this forum as a great form of entertainment. If you're looking for solutions to world problems -- famine, global warming (I know you're joking) and international hostility, you're not going to find it here ...

Here is one road test I found in a major publication that I feel is the most accurate assessment of the RDV:

-----------------------------------------------The Buick Rendezvous offers all the essential elements of a well-rounded crossover vehicle - an elevated stance, plenty of room for passenger and cargo, a smooth-running drivetrain - and in this category - plenty of luxury amenities.

Despite these strong credentials, the Rendezvous failed to inspire much enthusiasm among our staff.

Step-in is easy thanks to a relatively low ride height, and lightweight doors add to the ease of entry and exit. The seats are soft all around, a trait that, while normally commendable, puts it at a disadvantage when scored back to back against firmer, more supportive sport seats. Even with the vehicle's low ride height, the seats remain elevated enough to provide a good view of the road ahead, but the rearward sight lines are hampered by the wide C-pillars and small rear side windows.

(The engine) is not as willing to rev nor is it as powerful down low as (others in this class), but for most day-to-day driving, it's a perfectly competent motivator.

The suspension is a fully independent setup that emphasizes ride comfort above all else. Toss it into a turn at any substantial rate of speed and it will keel over and beg for mercy. There's never any loss of control, but there's not much fun to be had, either. The brakes were the softest of the four, although they turned in a respectable stopping distance.

Despite the fact that few, if any, Rendezvous owners will ever venture into the wild, we still dragged it along one of our off-road test loops. To no one's surprise, the Rendezvous was just too soft to handle rough terrain at speed. The soft suspension isolates the cabin nicely, but push it too fast over bumps and rocks and it bottoms out easily. The all-wheel-drive system never failed to provide perfect traction despite the relatively tame street tires.

We didn't like it as much as the others, but for those who would gladly give up cornering prowess and a gutsy engine in return for a forgiving ride and a quiet cabin, it makes perfect sense. -----------------------------------------------

2) I am offered quite a deal on a RDV via the internet, one that I could hardly refuse.

3) On the way over to the Buick dealership, I stop at the Honda dealership because I never did test drive the Pilot. During the 2 mile test drive, a large truck runs a stop sign, (while talking on their cell phone). I T-boned him at 40 MPH and totaled the brand new 2003 Honda Pilot, the saleman and I walk away with minor injuries ... no thanks to the air bags that didn't go off.

4) I find out today that the Buick rebates are continued, so I can still get the great "deal".

5) But most importantly, I am shocked that Dorene1, a very pleasant RDV poster, "ate" that first year depreciation on her new RDV, and traded up* to a MDX !! That is quite an expensive 180 ! (No slight or offense intended Dorene, enjoy that great MDX)

* trade up * for the purposes of the debate, IMHO, the MDX is a better vehicle ... if they cost the same I would already be driving an MDX, but they don't.

now THAT's a week! Since my holiday leave is now over, the server space should be freed up

Post your internet deal and experience over in the board, gotta see that one.

Wow, T-boned and walked away from it. Surprised that they didn't offer you a good deal after that one! Maybe should have told them about the RDV deal, and they could've matched it with some extras, then sell it on the 2nd market and get the RDV anyways!

Well, I've been lurking the various SUV boards for a while now researching my next sled. I never thought I'd actually own a "wagon", but mid-life has finally caught up with me and I need something roomier.

Anyways, I've been researching all of these crossovers for several months and have driven most of the seven people capable haulers out there and have formed my own opinion.

Let's start with the Honda Pilot...'cause that's where I started. What an overated SUV! Sure it's a Honda, it looks rugged, and it sure is peppy, but really, I thought the seats were uncomfortable (and the leather felt cheap), there's no dead pedal, road and tire noise are LOUD, and it rattled and flexed on all but the smoothest of roads...and it's huge. Strike one.

I also checked out the Explorer. I thought the Pilot was a little nicer...but not much. Great low-end grunt from the V8, and the seats were comfy too, but it was definately a truck. Rode like a bucking bronco on the freeway, although I admit that, around town it was pretty nice. Ford reliability kinda scares me too. Strike two.

The Buick Rendezvous was next. Basically a really nice ride, in a vanilla sort of way. It's upscale looking (tho a little "chick car" looking) inside and out, and I liked the room. It has the most comfortable seats I've ever sat in! The grown-up sized seat cushion supported my thighs all the way to my knees, and adjustable lumbar too...great for a long trip. On the road, the ride was really nice. Smooth and quiet (and I didn't get any of that "float"), tho it does roll in the corners a bit more than I'm used to.

And the Acura MDX. Well, I can see why some folks step up from the Pilot for this one. Honestly couldn't tell the difference in acceleration, but it handles better than the Pilot (tho it's no Bimmer!). I also think the "wood" dash looks OK. On the down side, The seats were almost as bad as the Pilot, and it also had a LOUDNESS problem...especially on textured pavement. It's a good compromise and I liked it overall, tho I'm not sure I want to pay 38 large for one.

Finally the Mercedes ML320. Sorry, I don't trust this one and haven't test driven it yet. With the 350, maybe they got the bugs fixed...I'm not taking a chance.

So, this whole MDX/Buick debate has me vexed. They each have their ups and downs. The MDX is definately the better performer, but at the price of plushness. The Buick is the other way around. Yeah the MDX feels sportier, but neither one is any fun to drive...both pretty much "point A to point B" as they say (we are talking about minivans here, after all).

I think I'll go test drive the new Lexus and Volvo before the jury retires.

Dont mean any disrespect here tidester but I want want to respond to your thermo Dynamics posting. You should know me by now, if you didnt want me to response, you should not have posted anything. First of all, I didnt think your lamp shade test was a fair comparison to a car's left and right HVAC system. The light bulb is over 200 deg and room temp is 70 deg. Can a HVAC system in a car generate a 130 deg difference? Secondly, both the 70 and the 200 deg air is not being circulated by a fan like the air in a car.You are right about the fact that with the right heat flow configuration just about any temperature gradient could be sustained. Only true if there is no returned air re circulated back from the rear of the vehicle.

You are right about no air is consumed, consumed was the wrong word, the hot air warms up the cold air.

Finally, you said:With one end at a fixed 68° and the other at a fixed 80° you have a temperature gradient. Intermediate locations have intermediate temperatures. What am I missing?What you are missing is the recirculated mixed air returning from the rear of the vehicle that will influence both of the temperatures. If the passenger compartment in a car was actually a wind tunnel, then it may be possible to maintain a 12 deg difference with a 12 deg output temperature difference in settings. Sorry, didnt mean to correct you but I just thought I shared with you what little I learn from college physic 101.

First of all, sorry to hear about your accident, hope you are all right. The front air bags in all vehicles are set to go off at a certain force. Perhaps in the heat of the moment, you over estimated your speed. But you should be happy that you only walk away with minor injuries. Had you been test driving the RDV, you may not have been able to walk away. Finally, this comment does not apply to you, because the other driver ran a stop sign. So dont response to this please. I think people who talk on cell phones and drive at the same time are as bad as driving drunk. They should really have a law banning this practice. By the way, I am not too crazy about the Honda pilot neither.Drive safely cfocfo

Hey old buddy, good to have you back. You are not going to verbally attack me again, are you? Just kidding.I believed what I said was the top of the line pilot is very close to the MDX base in price. I never said I like the pilot.

Sorry, didnt mean to correct you but I just thought I shared with you...

You may not have intended to correct me and you succeeded in not doing that! :-)

You ignore the presence of cooling and heating elements that maintain the "endpoints" at fixed temperatures. The "system" is not closed or isolated.

My lightbulb analogy holds as the principle applies to a 1° temperature gradient as well as it does to a 1000° temperature gradient. That was in response to your flat out claim that a temperature gradient could not be maintained in such a small space. In fact it can.

Welcome to the frying pan! Take a serious look at those two (Lexus and XC90). Unfortunately, the new Lexus is going to still be a 5 seater (a mistake by Lexus IMHO), so that's ruled out of this board altogether. Take the XC90 for a spin. Rides well, good safety, decent engine in either model. Price and maintainence are its major issues.

Good luck hunting, and let us know what are thoughts are about those ones.

If you're in the SFBay area, there's a poster who's wife hated her XC90 for xmas. It's on that thread somewhere recently....

fedlawman: Very nicely none on posting # 365. You post the editor's good comments as well as the bad.tidester HOST: Since we are going way off subject here, I will make it short. We are getting nowhere with this physic thing, so I will give you a case and point. If I remember right, when the GMC Envoy first came out, it too has a similar dual climate control. GMC claims that the system can maintain a 10 deg difference on the two side of the car in the front. Since that was a manufacturer's claim, usually in reality, its less than that. The RDV has a similar system, maintaining a 12 deg difference is impossible. I can't get my MDX to even maintain a 10 deg. difference between the front and the back, and the MDX's HVAC system has more BTU than the RDV.You also stated that: " You ignore the presence of cooling and heating elements that maintain the "endpoints" at fixed temperatures. The "system" is not closed or isolated ". I know a little something about temperature control loops, all auto climate control systems are closed systems. Meaning it had a feedback loop, therefore its a feedback system. The more the temp. differnce in setpoints, the more unstable the loop becomes. When you say endpoint, I think you mean sensor right? The cooling and heating elements maintains the sensor area to the set temperature. Temperature loop tends to be very unstable in any area that has high air flow, thats why most manufacturer place their sensors under the dash. Therefore it may have a 12 deg. difference where the sensor is. Any area that is a foot or 2 away will vary in temperature depending on the circulation.Finally: you also stated that " your lightbulb analogy holds as the principle applies to a 1° temperature gradient as well as it does to a 1000° " Well its somewhat true, but image how much energy it will take to maintain a 1000 deg difference in a area that is about 150 cubic feet. Imagine the heating and the cooling cost. The same theory can apply the the dual climate control system. To maintain a 12 deg. difference it would take a awful lot of energy, and frankly, I dont think the HVAC system in the Buick can do that. I think the key word here is maintain, it can certainly output air temp diff. of 12 deg. But it cant maintain it without the temp drifting up and down.Sorry that I couldnt make it shorter.

I have never said the RDV's climate control didnt work well. I merely said it cannot maintain a 12 deg difference in both side. The MDX's system should be able to create a bigger temperature differential since it has a seperate heater core and a air conditioning condenser just for the rear compartment.Following is a link to a edmunds article about the MDX. It claims that the MDX can output 19000 BTU. That is more than most of the SUV in this class.