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I was thinking about this yesterday, but then got sidetracked today as I watched the CSI episode and became annoyed by the potential HIV transmission. I have two complaints with the CSI- NY connection:

1. People do NOT always assume that this is an open forum. Yes, guests can view the forums. However, unless you are connected with HIV somehow, it's not a website you expect to find the average Joe surfing. Many of us divulge deeply personal information (even about illegal activities) about ourselves. We rely on the fact that there is some reasonable amount of assurances that the information isn't available to wider public. Having this site now connected to a MUCH wider audience makes me uncomfortable.

2. We were provided with no opportunity to express our opinion on the matter. The announcement came the same day the episode aired. It seems like everything is always being crammed down our throats. And any complaints are categorically dismissed.

I personally don't care if Smart and Strong makes money off of me (hell they are already doing it via my participation). But I do care that there is some acknowledgement that I only speak about very private matters (from sex life to disclosures, from information about my employers, to STIs, to drug usage, etc..), only because I believe this site is a sanctuary of sorts.

Peter, Tim, Andy and Ann (plus the Poz management team)- This was an invasion of our privacy and safety, and for what? To teach America that people living with HIV are so infectious that even a crime scene investigator can get it from us, after we've died.

Hey Cliff -- let me start by saying that I hope you really don't feel that "any complaints are categorically dismissed." I'm not ignoring folks' complaints, and will try to do what I can in reaction to them.

You should also know that this whole deal came down very fast, and I wasn't able to announce it publically until it was finalized, which, believe it or not, wasn't until yesterday afternoon.

Also, I was the only person at AIDSmeds that made the decision to set up the CSI forum in the same area as our current forums. I had to make this decision quickly, and I didn't discuss it with Tim, Andy or Ann beforehand. So don't blame them. It's all on my shoulders.

While I understand your concerns, I'm asking for your patience. Let's see how this plays out. Thus far, there's little evidence of CSI fans with no prior HIV interest coming into the other forums, and we have been able to introduce some people living with HIV that watched the show to our site. That said, I'm not claiming this a success yet, by any means.

I hope we do have a bigger and longer discussion about how public these forums are. This issue keeps coming up. I'm not quite sure how to address it yet. In the larger scheme of things, the additional audience we got last night is a minor blip in how public these forums actually are. This is an open site on the Internet. Every sentence in these forums, even if not viewed here, is seen by thousands of people during Google searches. Automated bots are constantly hitting these forums looking for email addresses. I just can't stress this enough -- the Internet is the most public place on earth.

I'm rambling now, but I hope we keep discussing this. I'll have much more to say about this "experiment" once it has a little time under it's belt. Until then, trust me, you've been heard.

I totally agree. You should know that anything you type enters the public domain. That is why disclosing personal sexual/emotional/and illegal activities should be done with that in mind. No reasonable person can have an expectation of privacy in a public forum, especially if you choose to use your real picture. So everyone, please think before, sayin' that you were somewhere, shoving gerbils up your butt while doing crytal meth and smoking crack, with your friend Sharon Needles.

Thanks Peter. I will look for your overall views of the project once the final episode has cleared. I accept your explanation for the timing (and that this was your decision only). However, I do still struggle with the privacy concerns. I am also interested in hearing the views from the other moderators, since in some sense they were in the same boat as us.

Rob,

Yes, this is a public website. I know that (that's stating the obvious). However, you are completely missing the point. The point is, that we are encouraged to discuss highly sensitive and personal information, because it is the discussion of those topics that generates debate which that results in the spread of information to others. That's the point of the forums. Without people discussing such sensitive topics, the forums are meaningless. If everyone takes down their photos, the forums are damaged. If people stop using their real names. the forums are damaged.

Not all websites are the same. Each vary in terms of how likely someone that knows you, will have access to your information. And many of us take comfort that the very topic of this website provides us with some sort of protection/privacy.

This is the Internet. I have no expectation of privacy. What isn’t obviously available can be had by anyone adept at finding it, and there are plenty of those.

This is a good reminder that what happens online is available to anyone who really wants it, and to use common sense when typing anything on any web site, be that personal financial information or just personal thoughts.

I totally agree with Cliff. Thank you for starting this thread. I disagree with posters who shrug and say "hey it's the internet baby". Just like HIV, there are levels of risk. Like Cliff I expect the number of non-hiv related parties at any given time to be low. Look at the guest numbers - they've been quite high. People are logging on to this site as users - who have no real interest or caring about HIV I'm sure. One poster yesterday called itself "crazy4csi" or some such nonsense. I told a moderator in PM how exposed I suddenly felt. This site needs to be just a bit under the radar to regular folks. Quite frankly, I smell money behind this. It is the motivator of all things. On a more esoteric note, I haven't turned on a network channel in years and years, they are programmed out of my line up. (Tell that to the holy producers). The shows aren't worth a cup of warm dog spit, and that people focus on them so leads me to wonder about any and all of their motives. Gee maybe a CSI team can figure it out. And what about poor Stella and that nasty piece of glass. Tsk. Tsk. How many disinterested parties are copying words from other posts to mock them and send them to friends? How many network boobs are calling their friends and having them come in here to see the HIV "freaks"? One can only hope no one runs afoul of mean spirited strangers. Thanks Peter, nice job.

Cliff is 100% right. I am sure he enjoys my support, but things change, and I guess you shouldn't,t put anything here if you wouldnt mind seeing it on the front page of your local newspaper. You never know. Many of us have put down our deepest thoughts,fears,and other personal emotions here because we felt it was such a safe place and it was and probably still is, but its still not a smart thing to do,unless as i said you dont mind it one the front page of the local newspaper.

I also agree with Cliff on this and find it hard to believe anyone can just comment, "it's just the internet"... Keep in mind many of us have pictures posted on this website, not just of ourselves either. Some here have very personal pics up. The likelyhood of someone seeing it is far greater now than it was before the introduction of the new forum.

Yes, I know the issue is not just about a picture of someones home or pet animal. I hope the forums don't lose a level of openess that it has already suffered here recently... It is a little disappointing to say the least.

I tend to see both sides of the coin, on one side it is no different then writing into a newspaper and on the other there is highly sensitive stuff that gets written here. I am wondering if aidsmeds might do what other sites do and force one to become a member before they can scan the site.I was hoping to download the show to see at another time, but it seems CBS is still stuck in the 20th century and a slide show doesn't cut it.Johnny

Logged

"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

I held a concept about this site. It has registration, membership, and rules of conduct. Moderators, too. I see it as an open forum to those who are willing to abide by it's guidelines. With this CSI involvement....it could become more public domain.....a GREATER arena. CSI will certainly will draw more attention to the site, now. Of course the jury is still out on how it will affect (effect??) this forum and/or AIDS awareness.

I am inclined to lean towards the thoughts of Cliff, Razorbill, and Jack. Yet, I am not disagreeing with what DanielMark and koi1 have stated since there are steadfast rules, otherwise risk, that one must consider when posting via internet.

Two weeks ago I willingly let Lisa use my last name as a show of support for her Aids/March project...yesterday I asked her to remove my name from that thread. In a matter of days I did not feel comfortable with my last name being viewed by so many new, additional strangers. The reason for my discomfort was the addition of the CSI forum. I hope it works out for the best for people living with HIV...personally to me it all smacks of crass commercialism and dilutes the personal nature of Aidsmeds. To me it advertises to each and every person living with HIV that we have become just another commodity in a very lucrative niche market. In that alone we are just like everyone else.

p.s. though it pains me to admit it, on this topic I have to agree with Cliff.

I did not mean that I didn't think it would be nice if this were a private or semi private forum. However this is a website, one that is out to make money, and keeping nice and intimate would not serve to make it economically viable. I respect the business aspect since bills do have to be paid to remain operational. Remember that though it is nice to put a picture to a face (most of the time), it is not a requirement to participate. Making a poignant post does not require a personal pic. People, guests or otherwise, know we are real, with or without it. I have put up deeply personal narratives and facts about my life, but I have also been aware that my privacy cannot always be guaranteed. As the people who run this website do have technological abiltiy to find out where the posts are coming from. I don't think they will use it to hurt me. That is the one aspect that I am still naive about, until they prove me wrong.

One of the things we've always worked for is greater awareness regarding AIDSmeds.com -- and, over the past year, its partnership with POZ -- "out there" to reach people who may benefit from the informational and support services we offer. We've advertised AIDSmeds.com in various gay, HIV, and mainstream media outlets and strive to be a top-ranked HIV site via search engines.

Partnering with the Kaiser Family Foundation -- and with it, CBS -- was yet another avenue taken to draw attention to AIDSmeds.com... using the Forums as a gateway to everything we offer here. I can assure you that $$$$ are not being made off of this partnership... in fact, industry banner ads in the CSI Forum needed to be stopped to placate CBS contractual issues.

We never intended the Forums to be of a single-family mindset, in which we'd build up a healthy membership and then shut the doors to newcomers. We've always strived to keep the doors open -- and, indeed, put a big neon "WELCOME" sign over the doors -- to anyone in need. Yes, this does result in a lot of unwanted attention -- we've definitely had our share of gawkers, worried wells, and riff-raff only hoping to start trouble -- but this is why we've kept these Forums heavily moderated.

The Forums -- with their intent on being open to anyone and everyone with genuine HIV-related concerns -- will never be able to guarantee the same safety one might find in a support group or more intimate, private setting. However, for the amount of exposure these Forums do get, I do think everyone -- moderators and members included -- have done a dynamite job keeping this space safe in light of its mission.

It seems as if we've lost good folks as the Forums continue to expand. This is terribly unfortunate and I wish it wasn't so. At the same time, we've gained many members who seem to benefiting nicely from this space and site. Personally, I don't think this is such a horrible thing.

Let me preface this by saying that my final opinion on how this whole thing balances out -- the pros & cons, and was it worth it -- won't be made until some time has passed.

But let me explain a what I know thus far. I had the choice of creating an entirely different forum (with a different URL, like csiforum.poz.com) for this collaboration with CSI/Kaiser, but I thought there were some major downsides to that option. A big one is the headache for everyone in dealing with two separate forums -- everyone would have to create new, 2nd accounts, and the moderators would have to monitor 2 separate forums. Also, it was my hope that among CSI's 17 million viewers, there would be plenty of pozzies watching as well, and they might find our forums this way.

We also set things up so that almost all of the traffic goes directly into the CSI forum. The links from knowhivaids.org and CSI:NY's website go directly into the CSI forum, NOT our forums' home page. The vast majority of fans that ended up here did just that -- they never left the CSI forum. We also included the CSI:NY logo at the top of the forums' home page for those that registered and returned, so that they could quickly find their way back into the CSI forum. In addition, the CSI forum has it's own "look," very different from the other forums (with the CSI logo, Stella's pic, etc.). All of this seems to be working well.

There were 2 potential upsides to adding the CSI forum to our current list of forums. It leaves open the option for any pozzies that find us through the CSI plug to easily join our other forums, without the confusion of having to create yet another account. For me, the biggest upside is that it makes it easy for our regulars to participate in the CSI forum. Their participation thus far has been what I expected -- amazing. They are doing an invaluable service of educating regular CSI fans about the reality of HIV/AIDS. Maybe even more importantly, they are giving the CSI creator and his writing team an EARFUL about how they're handling their HIV storyline. We have heard through the grapevine that their staff is quite alarmed by what they are reading, and that it could indeed affect the plot line. In other words, because of the active participation of our regulars, the CSI forum is becoming a form of activism.

All of that said, the downsides of my decision are THERE, and real. I'm NOT ignoring any of the complaints thus far. I'm trying my best to learn from them, and they will definitely way heavily in any future decisions made.

I think many members are struggling with whether or not this move represented to them a breach of one or both. That's one thing that each would have to decide for themselves. While I do believe the move was well-intentioned, many were caught totally off guard by its suddenness. Like any major decision (and I classify this one as such), there would be unintended consequences, unfortunately.

First of all, anyone whom admits to doing something illegal even in a personal email is a fool. Once it is on the net...bam its out there for anyone and everyone to see. Secondly posting a picture is optional. That's what is so great about this site. You can chose to be anonymous or not. It's a choice. If I posted my picture on here I am sure I would have someone I know eventually find me on here and I know that. I don't believe this should be some shut off community. I hope that many people visit this site and learn much from it. If it stops even one person from becoming HIV+ than the "intrusion" is well worth it to me. Eduacation is paramount!

Being hiv positive is and always has been a balancing act, in part deciding to what degree you yourself become the face of hiv/aids. I have heard a support group member state absolutely that he would never enter an office which, instead of using initials, read Aids Support Group of Cape Cod. If you are in a formal, a.s.o. run group, you most likely agreed to a list of terms and conditions about what would be said, about contacting members, etc. But this is also part of the history (to drag that in) of the hiv/aids movement, the concept of not fuming at home but participating in a very public Act-Up demonstration, even disobeying police officers and being arrested to make a point. So there is this bar, stretching from Act-Up to a support group and these forums, because they are public and not private, sit farther to the outside than the inside.

One way of watching out for oneself is watching language. We each have a choice of stating that I did or I feel or I whatever. We can also post, at least during the CSI presence, I would imagine that or I heard that someone or knew someone who or make statements without 'I' at all, the 'I' being inferred. Like anything else, the general public out there will lose interest in hiv/aids once the CSI story concludes. Win

Logged

Winthrop Smith has published three collections of poetry: Ghetto: From The First Five; The Weigh-In: Collected Poems; Skin Check: New York Poems. The last was published in December 2006. He has a work-in-progress underway titled Starting Positions.

It feels like a group 0f 20 adult strangers coming with beer on one hand and a girl's b-day gift on the other hand to a 7 year old boy's bithday party where the mom only planned 20 guest (children only) but the daddy decided to invite his collegues from work and didn't tell his wife until the day of the party. Then the mommy yells at the daddy for inviting adults at a kid's birthday party and the daddy tells her that it's his house and his son too, and their is plenty of food to feed the guest. It's awkward and inconsiderate.

We never intended the Forums to be of a single-family mindset, in which we'd build up a healthy membership and then shut the doors to newcomers. We've always strived to keep the doors open -- and, indeed, put a big neon "WELCOME" sign over the doors -- to anyone in need. Yes, this does result in a lot of unwanted attention -- we've definitely had our share of gawkers, worried wells, and riff-raff only hoping to start trouble -- but this is why we've kept these Forums heavily moderated.

The Forums -- with their intent on being open to anyone and everyone with genuine HIV-related concerns -- will never be able to guarantee the same safety one might find in a support group or more intimate, private setting. However, for the amount of exposure these Forums do get, I do think everyone -- moderators and members included -- have done a dynamite job keeping this space safe in light of its mission.

Tim Horn

I like what Tim has to say on the subject. I think it's selfish to have such an attitude that ok we're on the lifeboat, the Hell with the others! When I was diagnosed I didn't know about this site and didn't find it till sometime later.

No matter what arguement you make as others have pointed out. This is a website on the internet. At first I wondered why there wasn't more notice to the members about the CSI forumn; however, now it's clear to me that had anything been suggested ahead of time this innovative project would never have gotten off the ground.

If privacy is a concern then take some precautions. Simple as that! This website can't just cater to the existing members and then go on lockdown.

With any new group it's always good to have some new blood so to speak. I enjoy meeting new people who bring new ideas whatever they are.

It's interesting to me just how few people are willing to expose themselves to benefit others. The more of us that speak out and reach out the better for all of us!

As Andy says, this forum is grounded in trust and honesty. I think the foundation is still good and strong. We've always had an open door policy and those looking for safety, and guidance and understanding can find it here. People who come here to troll will get bored very quickly and leave. That's fine. Those people don't bother me or affect what I have to say or how I say it.

To bring some more perspective of how the CSI forum, and it's audience, changes the privacy dynamic of these forums, consider this:

1) Since the day these forums were launched in 2001, a large MAJORITY of both visitors and registered members in these forums have been HIV NEGATIVE (mostly worried wells).

2) From the get-go, we created a special forum for them ("Am I Infected," formerly "Fears of.."), and placed that forum at the top of the list (so that they'd be encouraged to remain in that forum).

3) We have used heavy moderation tactics to make these forums the safest ones on the Web for people living with HIV.

4) The number of HIV negative people that have found these forums using Google and other search engines FAR OUTNUMBERS the current influx of CSI fans. And just like the "Am I Infected" forum, we have done a really good job of steering everyone to where they need to be, and almost all of the CSI fans have been very respectful, and stayed in the CSI forum.

No one has ever complained about the Am I Infected forum from a privacy point of view, or that the Am I visitors and members have made the other forums feel invaded or unsafe.

If the CSI forum is such a threat, should I close it? And if so, then why shouldn't I also close the Am I Infected forum? Aren't they both providing a wonderful place to educate HIV negative individuals?

I don't know why, but it seems to me comparing Am I to CSI is an apples and oranges kind of argument and yes the statistical numbers back up your arguments. However, the sheer number of hits to a site should not outweigh the thoughts and feelings of the core member, day to day user of aidsmeds.

That being said I am under no illusion about opinions. Like something else we all have in common, everybody has one. For that reason I take what I need or want and leave the rest behind. I present my leftist, anti-corporatist, view of things...if folks agree fine...if not, so be it. We are all non-voting guests of this website...the only real choice I have if I don't like things is I can leave...so far no choices made by management has pissed me off to the point of leaving...much to the dismay of others I'm sure.

Aren't they both providing a wonderful place to educate HIV negative individuals?

Peter

Well I guess worried well membership will probably increase since CSI came up with such a lame reason for infection.. Steer them here and we can educate them properly I suppose.

Dachshund,

It's funny you bring up American Idol.... I think what they should do is put a spot of blood on the door knob before each singer goes in to sing before the judges. Let the camera slowly pan in and out on the spot. Instead of Simon bashing them on their singing skills or lack of... he can tell them they have just possibly been infected with the HIV virus! Then at the end of the show this website can be flashed as the credits roll.... You wanna educate? This is the way!!! Viewership for American Idol is so much greater!!

Dachsh.... I apologize if this is even remotely close to your ideas on HIV American Idol.

Two weeks ago I willingly let Lisa use my last name as a show of support for her Aids/March project...yesterday I asked her to remove my name from that thread. In a matter of days I did not feel comfortable with my last name being viewed by so many new, additional strangers. The reason for my discomfort was the addition of the CSI forum. I hope it works out for the best for people living with HIV...personally to me it all smacks of crass commercialism and dilutes the personal nature of Aidsmeds. To me it advertises to each and every person living with HIV that we have become just another commodity in a very lucrative niche market. In that alone we are just like everyone else.

This is the exact reason I removed my picture I just don't feel comfortable having it on here anymore.

Well I guess worried well membership will probably increase since CSI came up with such a lame reason for infection.. Steer them here and we can educate them properly I suppose.

Dachshund,

It's funny you bring up American Idol.... I think what they should do is put a spot of blood on the door knob before each singer goes in to sing before the judges. Let the camera slowly pan in and out on the spot. Instead of Simon bashing them on their singing skills or lack of... he can tell them they have just possibly been infected with the HIV virus! Then at the end of the show this website can be flashed as the credits roll.... You wanna educate? This is the way!!! Viewership for American Idol is so much greater!!

Dachsh.... I apologize if this is even remotely close to your ideas on HIV American Idol.

I gladly leave all details and rights to America's HIV Idol to you...please feel free to use my very, very, tongue in cheek episode.

If the CSI forum is such a threat, should I close it? And if so, then why shouldn't I also close the Am I Infected forum? Aren't they both providing a wonderful place to educate HIV negative individuals?

Peter

I just wanted to add I was always under the impression the Living With HIV forum was for well people living with HIV! I thought it was a support forum not a place to educate negative individuals. Am I the only person who thought this?

Posting with discretion on the Internet is only common sense. If you're concerned about it, sensitive personal info could be kept for Private Messages or e-mail, although like I inferred in my previous post, there is no guarantee of privacy on the Internet. It's just a fact of life whenever you go online.

Hey! Nobody who is uncomfortable with the CSI link is advocating a closed web site, us against them, HIV only place. Where did you read that? It is by nature a place where people come to vent, to discuss intimate problems etc. What, I have to discuss every problem one on one with each member in PM cause it's the internet? Levels of risk, exposure was the point, not closed off individuals. Geesh.

I found this site, and I found people like me... i disclosed my deepest darkest.. I found support... I disclosed the vomit and shit... I got support.. we planned a mini gathering... and i met the most WONDERFUL HUMANS!!!! I remember about a year and a half ago putting my WHOLE story on line... All the filth of being molested... the fact that i married a gay man and had a baby with him... the fact that i met a man that loved the son my X couldn't.. and adopted him... we later (9 years) had a daughter of our own.... she is now 11... I miss knowing all of you.. I know that it has more to do with me then you... when I cry, when i laugh...I knew that there were people to relate... I am grateful for the support... but not so much with the commercialism..

I just wanted to add I was always under the impression the Living With HIV forum was for well people living with HIV! I thought it was a support forum not a place to educate negative individuals. Am I the only person who thought this?

The Living With forum is for people living with hiv. It's one of thirteen forums on this site and you're right, it's not the place to educate negative individuals. That's what the Am I Infected and Someone I Care About has HIV forums are for. At the top of the CSI forum there is a Welcome Thread which lists forum posting guidlines. The guideline at the top of the list states:

Quote

With the exception of the Am I Infected?, Someone I Care About Has HIV, and Off Topic Forums, the Forums are intended for people diagnosed with HIV. If you are negative or unaware of your HIV status, please refrain from posting messages or questions in those Forums.

We will not allow CSI posters to post where ever they feel like. So far we've not had a problem with this at all.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I have to admit I was very upset when I first heard about the CSI forum and I was deeply worried about its impact on these forums. I thought all hell was going to break loose. Thankfully, that hasn't happened and we are seeing no evidence that CSI fans are spending any large amounts of time in the rest of the forums. Believe me, I've been looking.

These forums mean a lot to me and I feel very protective of this place. I know all too well it's the only place many people have to turn to for support. I'm one of those people and I've made all but a few weeks of my journey with hiv right here in these pages. I get why some people feel upset. I get it right in the pit of my stomach.

Peter knew how strongly I felt and told me I didn't have to moderate the new forum if I didn't want to, but that wasn't an option for me. My aim as a moderator has always been to keep this place safe for people like me, people who were isolated, whether they be in the middle of Podunkville or the Castro. I'm going to be here helping to make sure this this place stays safe, even in the middle of a crappy CSI storyline.

I also know that Peter has had the very best of intentions in allowing this site to host the CSI forum. Peter is an activist and this is activism in action. If we keep working on eradicating stigma and correcting misinformation in the media, there will come a day when none of us will have to worry about being recognised on an hiv support website. Think about it.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

A forum member PMd me to ask me to expand on a couple issues - namely:

Quote

1. Not everyone has the luxury to put themselves out there as an activist.

2. Whether CSI visitors post in other threads, (while a measurable goal you all are trying to define as the issue) doesn't address the vulnerability factor. Inviting 17 million people to visit this web site and potentially stumble on intensely personal information is the issue.

And I honestly don't know what to say. The thing is, I do get it. I'm living it. I have the same fears. I'm somewhat open about my status where I live, but I'm not totally out, not by any means. It took me a long time to screw up the courage to post my photo here. I was petrified when I first started my blog. The CSI forum brought all those fears back to me in stark relief.

A good forum friend of mine said to me "you're never alone". That's very true but that's only true because of this website. This forum is a lifeline for me and I know I'm not the only person in that position. I'm going through this right beside all of you. I'm a member here too.

I will not presume to tell any of you how you should feel about this new dimension to the forum. All I can do is tell you how I'm attempting to cope with it and that is through doing everything in my power to see that the disruption is held to a minimum. I can't stop visitors from reading your posts. I can't stop them from reading my posts either. All I can do is trust in the greater goodness of people's hearts to learn and treat us all with respect. I don't mean that only in the sense of what or where people post - I mean that in the sense of repercussions in the outside world as well.

We do have a wonderful opportunity here. It's scary at the same time. I know. I don't know about you, but I'm going to make the best of the situation, despite my fears. So far many of my fears have proved unfounded and I'm growing more and more optimistic that all our fears will be unfounded.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I'm going to be here helping to make sure this this place stays safe, even in the middle of a crappy CSI storyline.

I also know that Peter has had the very best of intentions in allowing this site to host the CSI forum. Peter is an activist and this is activism in action. If we keep working on eradicating stigma and correcting misinformation in the media, there will come a day when none of us will have to worry about being recognised on an hiv support website. Think about it.

Ann

Hi Ann,

I think pretty much all the regulars who wants to chime in have expressed how crappy the CSI storyline is. THE more interesting storyline, in my opinion, is how this experiment plays out in the future dynamics of these forums. Unscripted and all. I think this is something we will really all learn from, no matter which direction it goes.

One thing to keep in mind in the course of all these is we may not really know the true impact of this event with other regulars who are among the dissenters but who have chosen to keep silent simply because they do not wish to attract unwanted attention during this high traffic times. We'll just have to wait and see...

1. I do not own this site and therefore as Peter stated "he" not you made the decision according to his post. He founded this site and I guess he can do whatever he pleases. We can all go someplace else.

2. If I did own this site, I would not have made such access.

3. To quote Lis:I found this site, and I found people like me... i disclosed my deepest darkest.. I found support... I disclosed the vomit and shit... I got support.. we planned a mini gathering... and i met the most WONDERFUL HUMANS!!!! I remember about a year and a half ago putting my WHOLE story on line... All the filth of being molested... the fact that i married a gay man and had a baby with him... the fact that i met a man that loved the son my X couldn't.. and adopted him... we later (9 years) had a daughter of our own.... she is now 11... I miss knowing all of you.. I know that it has more to do with me then you... when I cry, when i laugh...I knew that there were people to relate... I am grateful for the support... but not so much with the commercialism..

I am not Lis and her life is not mine, but I can relate and to opening up "me" on this site like Lis. It took me over two years to get some "balls" to do it and share.

That is all I want to say. I value the friends I have met in cyber here and have been able to help me to creep out from under a dark rock that has covered me for years. I just don't want to feel the need to retreat underneath it.

One thing to keep in mind in the course of all these is we may not really know the true impact of this event with other regulars who are among the dissenters but who have chosen to keep silent simply because they do not wish to attract unwanted attention during this high traffic times. We'll just have to wait and see...

Peace,Gerry

Absolutely, Gerry, I am aware that some forum members have been quiet these past few days for that very reason. And that does bother me, very much. The last thing I want to come from this is having isolated people being further isolated. I don't know what we can do about it either. This has been my biggest fear all along - that some members will disappear out of fear and lose their mainstay of support.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I value the friends I have met in cyber here and have been able to help me to creep out from under a dark rock that has covered me for years. I just don't want to feel the need to retreat underneath it.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Not to put too fine a point on it, and not meaning to rehash old issues, but there are people who are members of this site who are mentally unstable and unbalanced, due to HIV, meds, drugs or booze. Their bullying of other members helped create a singularly unsafe environment here for a long time.

While it is legitimate to ponder the influence of external forces on the online community, we should be aware that having HIV and belonging to this forum does not exempt people from doing serious psychological or legal damage to others, should they choose to do so.

Anyone who shares intimate details of his/her life does so, on the best of days, at his/her own peril. Any flock this large is bound to have wolves, and having HIV does not make a person a saint - or relieve them of their innate sociopathy.

I personally think anyone should reconsider offering up any information that could be used against them. This is not a "safe" place in that regard, and never has been. And the greatest threats to the illusion of safety and community come not from outside, but from right here.

Trust me, I learned that lesson the hard way.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Of course people who don't want their information out their can go back and delete their posts and pictures. Also people can participate in the forums without giving their names or identifying information.

Whether valid or not - I'm one of those who felt the need to stop posting and to tighten up on having a picture of myself here and for me it wasn't a matter of greater concern that I'd be "outed" more than I would have been with out the CSI thing, at this point I am such a hermit no one knows me anyway. Oh - just a note, I haven't even read all the posts in the Stella forum so I'm sure most of what I have to say has already been said there, but gotta add my little bit.

For me it was a combination of thoughts like - okay so this is only the first show, what impact on visits will the future shows have? What will the discussions in mainstream media have? While moderators can do a great job in these forums, they sure can't control what any blogger or person/organization has to say anywhere else. Will that cause even more observation? If this setup with CSI can happen, then what show will be next and the one after that and the one after that.....? What about all the previous posts I've made (even knowing this is the www.anybody can look internet). If one of the goals was providing information to others and some or a lot of the vets (and I am not a vet) clam up, what's been accomplished?

I'd also like to suggest that in the future less emphasis be put on the "safe and secure" enviroment aspect that is so often stated, which I think tends to make people let their guard down and open up more than we should, even though that openess provides a more honest picture. It might be better to remind everyone that at anytime anything you say can and may be used against you as the say so often over in CSI land.

After reading the interview with the producer I came away with the impression this was more about what it could do for him then it could do for anyone else. He says "For me, it’s this. When Anthony Zuiker goes down in the books as somebody in Hollywood that was a leader in the industry, I want people to look back and say, “You know what? He did it right.”

He says "I am HIV negative and there’s not an individual that I know, nor something that’s happened in my life that’s directly linked to HIV." He doesn't know one individual? yikes!

Also - did I see where there are 17 million viewers? - He says "We reach six to seven million people every week with the television show" Later he says "The show will air in front of 18 million people" where did I misread which number it is? And I was glad to know "We really had to make sure that the subject of HIV/AIDS was presented in a way that was entertaining" Never realized HIV/AIDS could be entertaining.

"Perhaps we can package these stories, sell them and have the proceeds go to Kaiser. It would be so cool, right? Like the day we made history. BOOM. And all of a sudden we’d be selling this book of stories of people living with HIV, with all the profits going to the foundation. That would be so cool. It also might make for a powerful forward written by myself. - Yea that forward would make it a best seller no doubt.

Oh well - posting my thoughts and reading about the upheaval this has caused has only made me more mentally tired again so I'll stop now. Damn wouldn't ya know I just stopped taking Effexor a few days ago! Or maybe have a nice big brick or butter and then take my Atripla.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 01:12:15 AM by Tucsonwoody »

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And I wished for guidance, and I wished for peaceI could see the lightning; somewhere in the eastAnd I wished for affection, and I wished for calmAs I lay there - Nervous in the light of dawn

Not to put too fine a point on it, and not meaning to rehash old issues, but there are people who are members of this site who are mentally unstable and unbalanced, due to HIV, meds, drugs or booze. Their bullying of other members helped create a singularly unsafe environment here for a long time.While it is legitimate to ponder the influence of external forces on the online community, we should be aware that having HIV and belonging to this forum does not exempt people from doing serious psychological or legal damage to others, should they choose to do so.

Anyone who shares intimate details of his/her life does so, on the best of days, at his/her own peril. Any flock this large is bound to have wolves, and having HIV does not make a person a saint - or relieve them of their innate sociopathy.

I personally think anyone should reconsider offering up any information that could be used against them. This is not a "safe" place in that regard, and never has been. And the greatest threats to the illusion of safety and community come not from outside, but from right here.

Trust me, I learned that lesson the hard way.

I have to concur with this! There are mental health websites for those who might require both! And, just so ya know those aren't secure either!

THIS IS A WEBSITE ON THE INTERNET! Regardless of personal feelings it is open to the public, and even if it were private it would not be 100% safe or secure.

One member was basically criticizing the founder of this site because they don't agree with the CSI forumn for whatever reason. That person feelings aren't to be discounted. However, it was stated that a certain person founded this site. So, clearly that person can do with it what he or the group of founders choose.

I've been paying close attention to this because I started my own group which was set to private. Today, I opened it up to complete public access because it's in the best intererst of the majority regardless of what a few people think. My group is nowhere near the size of this one, nor as organized, but I did start it and it took a Hell of a lot of work to get it to the point it was. I spent hours upon hours trying to make it fit everyone's needs. It was a grass roots deal and I made up things as I went.

My suggestion to critics would be that you try it. Moderate everything! Do everything! Start your own group and see how well you do. It's a LOT of work and if you think you can do better on your own then give it a whirl.

I don't know the founders of this group. I'm assuming they include Ann, Peter, Andy and Tim. Don't know any of em, but what I can say is that I think that before you criticize thier efforts consider walking in thier shoes for a minute.

Whether I agree with them or not I do respect all the work they've done because I know the magnitude of managing a site of this size with so many different personalities.

Without even knowing these people I've spent enough time on here personally to know they have done the best job they can and I for one admire all of their efforts and hard work. I'm most definitely not an Ass Kisser and those that know me know I tend to tell it like it is!

For all those complaining I have a suggestion. If you are going to complain, you will gain credibility by at very least adding some legitimate suggestions or ideas to accomplish what you hope to achieve. Otherwise, what you say is completely baseless and pointless and you have zero creditbility.

If I were the founders and moderators having to deal with some of the bitter and irrational commentary targeted at me personally I'd just start eliminating the BAD APPLES trying to ROT the Bunch! I wouldn't put up with this amount of whining for a few that will never be satisfied. So, guess you're lucky I am not moderating eh?

I've repeatedly witnessed Rock throwing and innuendos of unethical behavior of certain key people with zero to back it up.

You know what I haven't seen? I haven't seen anyone thanking or complimenting those key people in their efforts for trying to make a difference for all of us.

1. Vulnerability to "exposure." There are many people using these forums, both within the US and outside, who are not US citizens. 'Nuff said.

2. Privacy and copyright. I posted a reply in a thread started by Matt (newt) which is peripherally relevant here as well, so I'm cross-posting. It's reply #28 on this thread. http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=9034.0

Jay

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.

Wes, please allow me the elementary courtesy of not assuming that I'm an idiot. Id est, that until you informed me, in bold, I was unaware that the Internet is unique to the United States.

The point is that being HIV positive was (until recently) grounds for barring non-citizens from entering the US. In other words: a lot of HIV positive folk who are not citizens living in the US were (and possibly still are) "illegal alens." The current lifting of the entry ban by the Bush administration applies, I believe, only to short-term "tourist" visits. Positive status is still a reason for banning a person from residency and citizenship. And possibly from being an intermediate-term student or worker.

So, where someone resides, and what passport he or she holds, does in fact have something to do with the issue at hand.

Jay

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Her finely-touched spirit had still its fine issues, though they were not widely visible. Her full nature, like that river of which Cyrus broke the strength, spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.