At least 70% of the fifth generation and most of the 6th and 7th generation have elements of falsehood in them. Only the degree is the telling point.

What do we mean by lineage, official lineage or even casual lineage? Loaded words, at a minimum.Is the casual person who took lessons with a famous teacehr part of that lineage? WHo knows? Then we are all lineage disciples!

Better yet, whose lineage chart are we referring to? Shall we check the present lineage master and realize 90% of those mentioned in the aforementioned 5th, 6th and 7th generations do not exist and are not present per that lineage chart! What is going on?

It all happens for a reason! Each will have to figure out on their own.

Actually, after a certain point, I find these discussions of lineage rather boring. No offense, but isn't it about time we started concentrating on the here and now? Worrying about what Yang Lu Chan did hundreds of years ago is getting tedious at best. What do you guys/girls think?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tccstudent:Actually, after a certain point, I find these discussions of lineage rather boring. No offense, but isn't it about time we started concentrating on the here and now? Worrying about what Yang Lu Chan did hundreds of years ago is getting tedious at best. What do you guys/girls think?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TCCstudent,Well... Yes and no.Lineage discussions are rather boring for the most part. That's very true. And what's important IS the here and now. Also very true.However, what Yang Lu Chan did a hundred years ago can give us insight into the practice and study of TCC today. As long as we look at historicaly accurate renditions and not the "He could levitate and shoot lightning bolts out of his nostrils" type of stories, that is.Will it make me a better TCC player? I dunno, but it can't me a worse one.Looking back is not always a bad thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tccstudent:Actually, after a certain point, I find these discussions of lineage rather boring. No offense, but isn't it about time we started concentrating on the here and now? Worrying about what Yang Lu Chan did hundreds of years ago is getting tedious at best. What do you guys/girls think?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are right. On the whole, the lineage thing is done to death by people looking to validate their practice.

did anyone see the other questions ??? can anyone guide me toward the information for Yang taiji chang quan?

As for lineage- the whole idea came about from a conversation I have been having with a Michuan yangjia (secret yang style) practitioner. I bought several VCD's and DVD's from China on the topic of Imperial Yang Taijiquan for the reason of collecting rare styles of taijiquan for observation purposes. I love collecting data on Yang taijiquan- thats who I am. So i let my friend Scott who teaches here in the DC area borrow the VCD's to see if the movements- turning, stances, weight distribution, form, ect is similiar to the style of taijiquan he teaches. Well he over intectualizes me that if the Imperial Yang taijiquan guys arent on the official yang list (recongnized by yang family) that was published in china that includes HIS teacher's teacher- Zhang Qilin, well then the Imperial Yang guys- Fu jiechen, Zhai Yingbo, Wang Yong Chen, Xiao Tiesheng, Li Zheng and others arent valid and are coming from a nowhere to justify their rare/secret yang style taijiquan. yada yada yada....

So i would like to see this "list" of offical Yang lineage people through the generations recongnized by the yang family and see if any of these guys are on it. That way my friend MIGHT decide to watch the VCD's and analyze the movements.... or at least have his ego shattered.

To me, the problem of whether he/she is from the direct lineage or otherwise is not as important as the quality of TCC he/she possesses. Of course there is also the question of what constitutes `a direct lineage'? Many had a few lessons with masters from direct lineage and then self-proclaim to be the next generation of direct lineage. The lineage thing has becomes a good marketing credential especially in the US. I've met many so-called direct lineage masters who have low and incomplete TCC skills...so what's the use of lineage? I've known a few who travel to China to train under Cheng XiaoWang for 2 weeks and started marketing themselves as direct disciples of Cheng XiaoWang.

Like Jesus Christ said, judge the tree by the fruits it bear. Judge a master by the skill and students he/she produces...not by whether he/she is lineage or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cheefatt taichi:<B>To me, the problem of whether he/she is from the direct lineage or otherwise is not as important as the quality of TCC he/she possesses. Of course there is also the question of what constitutes `a direct lineage'? Many had a few lessons with masters from direct lineage and then self-proclaim to be the next generation of direct lineage. The lineage thing has becomes a good marketing credential especially in the US. I've met many so-called direct lineage masters who have low and incomplete TCC skills...so what's the use of lineage? I've known a few who travel to China to train under Cheng XiaoWang for 2 weeks and started marketing themselves as direct disciples of Cheng XiaoWang.

Like Jesus Christ said, judge the tree by the fruits it bear. Judge a master by the skill and students he/she produces...not by whether he/she is lineage or not.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a copy of Chen Weiming's book with the information on Chang Quan. I've never read it very closely or tried to translate it. I think Barbara Davis may be working on doing so eventually. I may try to post something on it in the next few days. It pretty much consists of names of movements (some the same as in the received form, some different), and some brief, sketchy descriptions.

I have to agree completely with Chee Fatt on this one. I had direct, and long term, training with someone who was clearly on a TCC families "lineage" chart. I thought I would surely get top quality training from them, after all they were on a "list", had their name right there in black and white alongside some big names in the game. Their bona fides along the lineage lines were unquestionable.Turns out I didn't get very good quality training in TCC. I'm not sure what that was, but I know now what it wasn't. I have been getting very good, in fact I will go so far as to say excellent, training with my Yang Cheng Fu Center Director. His name is not on any "lineage list" that I've seen. He is on the approved instructor list on this website, but I did not see that until long after I began to train with him.So "lineage schmineage", as far as I'm concerned. It's all well and good to be in the lineage, but that's certainly no guaruntee that person can or will teach you TCC. There are only two questions I need to know the answer to when it comes to finding an instructor anymore:One: Does he actually know TCC? Two: Can and will he actually teach it to me? If the answer to either question is "no" then why bother training with him?The problem here is that unless you have some time training real quality TCC, like this establishment and several others teach every day, how would you know? I didn't, so I wasted a lot of time and quite a bit of cash on someone's "lineage" chartability. Lineage is all well and good, but it certainly isn't any sure way to figure out who can and will teach you genuine TCC.

BTW- i told my friend to go argue with the Imperial yang Taijiquan people on their claim that their master studied with yang Lu Chan and they probably have the documentation to prove their claim. I just bought the VCD from china because in fine print it said it was the Yang Taijiquan practiced in the Imperial Court many generations ago. Apparently there have been several generations of student/teacher relationships since the time of Yang Lu Chan to keep this style of taijiquan still in existance.

i am just want him to check it out and not shoot the messenger.

I would really like to see him argue with them on the subject of their validity.