atron67 wrote:wack wack, why were there offers from washington to stay in Iraq if obama is so "loudly proudly anti-dumb war"? one would think he is the one in charge of making those offers.

are you disputing that there were offers from washington to stay in Iraq?

Sorry I didn't see this earlier... there is a difference between willingness and desire. I don't deny that Obama was willing to stay. You said he was, "trying to stay..." which sounds to me like an expression of desire.

Making an offer is not necessarily an expression of desire; I offer to do things I don't really want to do all the time, don't you?

I was disputing the notion that Obama wanted to stay in Iraq. Willing? Yes. Wanted to? No.

Huckleby wrote: Democracy produces unpleasant results sometimes. The main struggle is for the hearts and minds of the people, that drives everything.

Not looking forward to another season of unrealistic campaign promises followed by the "peoples government" conspiring with the moneyed class and their bankers to create public hysteria through fear, in support of profit accumulation. In a plutocracy, dollars rule. In a democracy, people rule.

Stella_Guru wrote: In a plutocracy, dollars rule. In a democracy, people rule.

There is a lot of legitimacy to your talk of plutocracy and corruption. We do have some very rotten structural problems, and they've gotten a lot worse the last few years.

There is nothing new under the sun. The far left has declared our political system unredeemable and unreflective of the people since the Russian Revolution. I can remember when Jimmy Carter was the antichrist. Noam Chomsky, the Imperial Grand Dragon of the cult of paranoia, has been preaching the-fix-is-in for 30 years.

We still have a system where public opinion is (by far) the strongest force. The composition of the House of Representatives wouldn't be in constant flux if democratic forces weren't at play.

The people of America have a very strong conservative streak, and leftists just can not understand or accept that Ronald Reagan, who campaigned against Welfare Queens, is beloved by many Americans. The public does support leftist positions on a lot of specific issues, but they are a frustrating lot, those people.

Henry Vilas wrote:As I said years ago, these wars will end the same way the Vietnam War ended. After dragging on your years, Americans will tire of these fruitless endeavors, the president will declare victory and bring our troops home. Then all hell will break loose.

No matter how long we prolong those wars, the results will be the same.

We finally pulled out of Iraq (mostly) and hell is starting to break out already. First an Iraqi vice president (seems they have more than one) is charged with treason for directing Sunni on Shiite religious violence and now this: Baghdad explosions kill at least 60 people.

Opponents of the decision to invade Iraq see vindication in the instability there, they claim proof that Iraq was doomed to fail (see Henry Vilas above.) There is an almost gleeful triumphalism.

Bulllshit. I am veteran who served four years during the Vietnam War. I am sad that history is repeating itself. I see the same thing happening after we finally withdraw from Afghanistan. I take no glee in that.

I was not assigning glee to you in particular. Been reading meessage boards at Wash Post.

You have no clue about what will happen in Iraq. It remains utterly unpredeictable. Those who are certain are working from broad models and ideology. The people who know the most about Iraq are the least confident.

Huckleby wrote:Opponents of the decision to invade Iraq see vindication in the instability there, they claim proof that Iraq was doomed to fail (see Henry Vilas above.) There is an almost gleeful triumphalism.

that's how it read, but was not my intent, there was no glee in your short post. Its foolish to question sincerity of other posters.

my intent was to identify you as a know-it-all, and know-it-alls have all been wrong on Iraq saga, and likely will continue to miss the mark.

The most worrying thing about Iraq is that the Sunni's have identified with the protesters in Syria, and the government has, nominally at least, supported Assad, although maybe they are hedging. A regionally war is brewing which could be hell on earth.

The hope I see is that Kurds will patch things up with Sunnis and form counter weight. Maybe fact that Kurds are sheltering the Sunni Vice President point in that way.