ottermaton’s Techdirt Comments

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

But the choice you make to go to a restaurant where tipping is expected ... noooooo, you have no responsibility for the choice you made, do you? You poor little thing. You just HAVE to go to restaurant that allows you to make a gigantic ass of yourself.

If you want to take my personal observations of your behavior on this thread and elsewhere as insults, that's cool.

I do. Most people consider name calling an insult (aside from being obviously juvenile). Not that I'm at all concerned about being insulted by you. I just found it funny that you're projecting that behavior on to me when you are clearly much, much more guilty of it.

When someone has called me out and proven me wrong on some incorrect fact I stated here on Techdirt, I, more often than not, accept it graciously

Really? You call what you were doing (dodging, changing the goalposts and so on) about being called out on having paid taxes on your tips out of your pocket ZERO times being gracious?!? You really have no idea how you appear to others, do you? I KNEW it from the very first time you said it and it took you FOREVER to finally 'fess up that you were full of shit.

Contrast that with the FIRST time you gave me a link, I said, "But anyway, you did your work, I'll give you credit."I guess you missed (or, much more likely, chose to ignore) that part, huh?

I'm at the point where I am laughing at you.

Don't you realize I've been laughing at you this whole time? That and you believing that you appear gracious convinces me that you really have no idea how you are perceived.

PS: I guess you must have seen the First and Last Words which is why you're still having this same tired tantrum.

And you go all pedantic about a totally irrelevant point (one which, I'll add, actually supports my position ... has that dawned on you yet?) and piss and moan and throw a tantrum, but you accuse me of not being fun to hang out with? hahahahaha! That's really rich!

I provided quotes and links to support my position.

That would be OK if you actually had a position. But you don't. You've been pedantic about one minor point that supports my position.

Also, since I already gave you "credit" for those (even though they were Yahoo Answers citations (that must be an oxymoron)), what are you still harping on about? Can't stop your pedanticism?

(By the way, make sure you show Mommy how you "won" an Internet debate. She might let you have ice cream tonight!)

[your] mind is already made up in the form of "I already know the answer is ZERO".

Considering that what I was referencing every single time was asking you to show me that you have, in fact, "paid money out of your actual tips into taxes, took money out of your bank account to pay those taxes, or dug up a rusty can to pay those taxes" and you have yet to show me that you have, I guess the answer is actually ZERO.

I was, in fact, correct. And we both know it.

The larger point that I was making still stands. You have no point at all. And we both know it.

Remind me: what does that have to do with the matter at hand? Oh, it actually reinforces my whole point because when (in those outlier cases) a server has to pay money into the IRS at tax time and if someone isn't tipping them, that's actually screwing the server's income even more!

I do not and will not conform to normal etiquette in human interaction. It's not your blog or mine but I like to pretend I'm in charge around here, because I'm a special snowflake. I'll wander off on tangents and spout a bunch of bullshit that has nothing to do with the matter at hand in comments as I please.

Now that you've been called on a bunch of Logical Fallacies, you're trying to shift the blame to me to try to prove a negative: "You need to prove your claim that 'it doesn't happen'

Really? What do you expect me to do? Compile all the tax returns of every server in the US and pass them along to you for review? Pffft.

This has gone well beyond the point of ridiculousness. You just keep bringing up all sorts of little technicalities -- that you're not even able to support, by the way -- that really have nothing to do with the central issue. All they have to do with is your ego and desire to score a win.

I was simply disputing your assertions that "Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never." and "The Fed just eats the difference." You are wrong on both of those points.

That's quite a claim, because you have yet to show anything to refute either point. I have asked you repeatedly to show point out a single time where YOU, when you were a server, paid your tips in a way other than your paycheck. You haven't because you can't.

And you can't find another server that has, either, because it does not happen.

Likewise, show me a time when you or another server had to pay taxes into the system or even had their refund reduced at year's end tax return time. You can't because this also does not happen.

You can't demonstrate either of those things, yet still have the temerity to say that I'm wrong all because you just have to pretend to win your little Internet debate on an insignificant and largely irrelevant point. You're a joke.

When my car mechanic fucks up my car, I don't pay him either.

There you go again, talking about an utterly different situation. Why are you so desperate to "win" this exchange that you feel you have to move the goalposts all the time?

If a server is so bad that I don't believe they deserve my "gratitude" I won't leave a tip.

Again, you're arguing against something nobody has claimed. I certainly never said you should tip on bad service. In fact, if you weren't so obsessed with trying to win you would already know that I said this about that:

I have personally (and have seen others do this) refused to take a tip from a table because the service was screwed up. Servers don't want charity

The only thing in question anymore is now that you have repeatedly used the tactics of arguing a claim not made and repeatedly moving the goalposts and been called on them, what desperate measure will you use next in your futile attempt to "win"? Here's a list for you to choose among.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

I had the opportunity this morning, after friendly smiling service, to speak to the senior person at the business. I made sure that I highlighted my delight at the service and how it was superior to what I had received elsewhere. I did not nor do I feel it in any way necessary to pay the specific staff in question a financial benefit. I make it a point to look around me and compliment people who are doing their job well, no matter kind of job it is.

It sounds as if this was not a food service kind of business, though I can't really be sure. Regardless, at the end of your meeting or whatever it was, if you had known that the owners were not paying those wonderful smiling employees a livable wage, would have then even given a thought to throwing a few bucks their way? Beyond that, would you even consider doing business with a company that you know doesn't pay its people?

If the system is problematic, then do something about it.

As I have said repeatedly, the thing to do is not patronize establishments that do not provide a livable wage to their staff. What are YOU doing about it?

Why don't you vote with your feet and dollars instead of blaming the "victim" (too strong of a word for this case, I know) and taking it out on them?

Yes, we know that you're just gonna have your little tantrum, stomp your feet and still support those kind of places because you feel you are owed going to a nice place where the staff depend on tips for their livelihood, yet somehow still feel that you are entitled to not pay those tips.

It's YOU who needs to grow up. Adults take responsibility for their actions. Adults don't demand their desires be fulfilled without giving anything in return.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

... you can give your employer money until the close of the calendar year to pay the rest of the taxes

Notice that word "can" there? That means it is NOT a requirement, it's entirely optional. I have over and over and over challenged you to name a time in your serving career when you paid taxes in a way other than your paycheck and you haven't. Are you finally willing to admit that you can't because you never did? Not some example from a completely different occupation that's classified totally differently (as a 1099 subcontractor rather than an "actual" employee), but as a server. I won't hold my breath because I know you can't.

Notice any difference there? I'm challenging you on claims you definitely made but can't back up. You, on the other hand, are arguing against a claim that I never made.

You won't find another server to say that they paid taxes in some way other than out of their paycheck because it just doesn't happen. Yea, their is a very, very remote possibility that it might happen, but in the real world it simply does not.

Let me be clear. Never once did I claim that tips are not taxable income. In fact in my first post on this thread I said:

Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.

You are doing a fine job of making yourself look disingenuous when you're arguing against a point that nobody claimed.

In the end the real point is this:

Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

Tips are taxable income. Servers have to pay taxes on tips because it's taxable income.

Can you, for once, try to NOT move the goalposts? Can you manage that?

Show me where I a single damn time said tips were not taxable income. In fact, in my very first post in this thread I said this:

Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.

It's fascinating to watch how you move the goalposts, backpedal, and pretty much repeat exactly what I said in the first place in your vain attempt to "win" some Internet debate. Not to mention the fact that this one tiny little point that you are so laser-focused on has next to nothing to do with the point at hand, which is this:

Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

Still keeping it classy, I see.

You butt into a conversation spouting bullshit and when you get called on your bullshit you claim the person pointing out how rude you are for bringing incorrect (and frankly, irrelevant to the actual point) information is the one not being "classy"? Good grief.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

I worked a couple of years as a contract cable installer

FFS, you can't move the goalposts into an an entirely different profession and then claim that I'm wrong.

Tell me -- and I KNOW you already know this is intent of the original question because it was in response to you claiming to have been a server -- how many times as a server did you do any of those things you mention?