Posted
by
timothy
on Friday December 31, 2010 @11:04PM
from the communist-block dept.

itwbennett writes "In an interview with German daily paper Handelsblatt, the EU's industry commissioner, Antonio Tajani, said he wants the power to block China from buying up European tech companies. Tajani envisions an authority along the same lines as the United States' Committee on Foreign Investment and would determine 'if the acquisition (of a company) with European know-how by a private or public foreign company represented a danger or not.'"

to the dollar, I say block it. The fact is, that while China belongs to WTO and IMF, they obey NONE of it. It is time for the west to say enough, is enough. China needs to obey the treaties and other legal obligations that they have signed. That includes:

allowing their money to float freely(WTO, IMF, and Clinton accord).

Quit dumping (WTO, and Clinton Accord).

Quit subsidizing all of their state businesses (WTO, IMF, and Clinton Accord).

drop trade barriers(WTO, and Clinton Accord).

Turn on their pollution control mechanisms (Japanese treaty).

Allow rare earth exports (WTO).

quit buying up companies and the telling them to either move the company to China or directing that 100% of the goods be transfered to China (WTO).

And that is just for starters.
The fact is, that the west needs to say enough is enough. I support free trade, but not when it is one sided.

You support free trade, but not when the other "side" is "winning"? Are you crazy? Do you even know what "free trade" is? It's a ticket for transnational companies to do what the hell they like, override local laws and generally be a government unto themselves. Now, what is one-sided?

What do you imagine would happen if the rest of the world tried to get tough with China, and the Chinese regime locked down the ports, told their businesses that they'd underwrite their wage bills in order to keep the peasants working, and just started backing up all the exports - or for that matter, just diverted them straight from the factories that make them to the factories that recycle them?

I'd give it a week before the rest of the planet blinked and caved in completely. We need them China a lot mor

China has been printing Yuans like they are going out of style. QE2 is designed to shake China off of America's coat tail. The longer that they tie their Yuan to the dollar, the worst that things will get for them. Shortly, they will see massive inflation. And if they do NOT untie the Yuan from the dollar, then I expect that QE3 will be done. THAT will run China's inflation up to MINIMUM of 40% with ZERO chance of slowing that puppy down.

What if the Republicans cement their power and the bankers (who hate inflation) take over control of the Fed though? QE is obviously beneficial to the economy as a whole, but the powers rallying against it (a combination of stupid people and people who'd throw their granny off a train for short term gain) are powerful.

Actually, QE is NOT that beneficial to the economy. HOWEVER, it is far far far less destructive to America (and the west) than China's policy has been. China's cold war policy has been to drain the economies of the west by allowing LIMITED capitalism in there. There is little doubt that China's leaders see themselves in a war with the west.

Now, if you really want manufacturing to come back soon, then the DOD will insist that the phones that they buy for troops MUST BE MADE IN AMERICA.
In fact, if the DOD

QE2 is an admission that US debt is no longer attractive to the foreign buyers, that the long terms interest rates are going up and cannot be controlled by Fed set short term interest rates, that inflation is rampant.

QE2 is the Fed being the lender of last resort to the US federal government. QE2 is an admission that US federal government is bankrupt.

i am still learning trying to catch up for the time i wasted being hedonistic american brat.

thanks for clarifying that the path the experts called for weakens china's buying power.

some people tell me i don't need to change. they say to listen to my heart. my heart still just goes 'thump thump' though. my goal is to break through the stereotype and find that special someone i need.

China has a split economy. Many of their goods, such as what coal miners and most of CHinese farmers are paid, is dictated by the CHinese gov. Most of what is capitalist there, is for manufactured goods destined for exports.

I do not say that their free trade should be restricted. I say that as long as they are not obeying the treaties/laws that they agreed to, THEN there is no reason for us to honor our side. Free trade is about TWO WAY TRADING.
CHina is not about 2 way trade. It is about gaining it quickly and with interest in the real issues. They are in a cold war with us and using the economy against the west. It is time for us to stop this.

One way to pull our electronics out of CHina is to get western companies to move it back. However, QE2 is designed to do that for us. It will shake China lose, or they will suffer massive inflation.

You support free trade but you insist their trade be restricted. Personally I'm against free trade. It never made sense when it was first proposed and it's brought a lot of grief to the first world. It's one thing having free trade with countries like Canada and the US or even much of Europe and North America where the economies are similar. Merging with a third world country means the first world country has to drop their standard of living to compete.

Well, one of the key theorems in trade is that it's beneficial to exchange goods as long as there's a relative difference in productivitiy, regardless if one country is superior to another in every way. That is, if we can produce good A much faster than China and good B a tiny bit faster than China, we should specialize in producing A and export that while importing B for a net gain compared to producing B ourselves while China does the opposite. As such it's not unreasonable that rich countries have trade

And the only thing they'll accomplish is they'll force China to use it's covert/secret agents to buy European tech companies. If China wants to buy a company nobody and nothing can stop it. They'll have their European shell company set up with their puppet CEO who will covertly buy the company in the name of China. Then years later China will overtly take control.

And that is what has been going on in America. Part of several bill by W allowed companies to hide their investors. If the rest of the west does not want wholesale destruction of their nations like has happened to America, then they need to require all investment companies to disclose who the investors in them are.

Uh, "wholesale destruction" isn't what's happening to the US, and China can take little credit for the decline that is happening. At worst, the US is having a slump, caused by incompetent leadership and short-sighted financial policy, combined with a media that doesn't "report" the news so much as it "spins" the news.

They don't have to be covert or secret. The housing bubble in Australia has been driven to a large extent by Chinese buyers. The property is actually owned by Chinese born Australian citizens but the money is coming from China.

I know a few Chinese born Australian citizens who would really love it if this conspiracy theory is true, but instead they have to save to hit a moving target just like the rest of us.The reality is pretty well the same as the US housing bubble and a whole lot of others in history. About the only twist we've got is a bit of artificial political manipulation because the press and others assume that sales of houses are equal to a measure of the economy - thus leading to the assumption that a lot of activity

This comes from my wife's relatives and friends. They are primarily Malaysian born Chinese with Australian PR or citizenship. And yes they have a lot of trouble saving to buy. They see a lot of mainland Chinese born people buying property purely to invest. Additionally my wife works as an architect and she knows of mainland Chinese businesses which are actively investing in the Australian property market. They do projects typically between five and 10 million AUD. Usually high density unit development. She looked at working for them but they weren't paying enough to justify the risk.

Yes, real anecdotes but of little consequence to a larger system. It's just like a few real investors from Sydney buying land in Queensland but it's not enough to drive the bubble.It's a weaker link than a conspiracy theory of saying that the Chinese run the Liberal Party via Andrew 'Twiggy' Forrest and just as unlikely to make a difference in the long run. The mining sector is where there is a lot more investment than the trivial percentage of the housing market. Radio Rich Gay Redneck talkback subjects

Right now a hot market for the small property investor is foreclosures in the USA, which are incredibly numerous. Of course, you have to get one that's not going to be contested, or you could end up in an eternal legal battle. Why would you want to live in a country where everything'll kill ya? They're going just as fascist as the rest of the world.

The USA just wants your money so we let anyone not on THE LIST of people who we claim are terrorists or from a member of THE OTHER LIST of countries we are mad at economically since we sure don't give a tenth of a shit about human rights come in and buy property. The real issue to me is that the economy continues to decline and there is every sign that the government is trying to make it do this as rapidly as possible, and that means more and more hungry, homeless people wandering around and potentially squ

Rubbish. Laws can be made that stop this kind of thing and China must abide by Western laws when doing business in the West (just as Western businesses must operate by Chinese laws in China). Stop the unfounded sensationalism please. Here the EU is clearly creating regulatory laws as is their sovereign right - and China is subject to them whether they like it or not (if they are caught stealing tech the full force of such laws is used against them). I applaud the EU for prot

The EU, as currently conceived, just flat-out doesn't have the power to enforce laws in individual countries. Look at the recent abortion ruling by the EU against Ireland. Ireland's response amounted to "And . . . ?"

The first time the EU tries to make this stick, they're going to have to go to court against every member nation the company in question operates in.

The Europeans need to face facts: they're not remotely as committed to the ideal of unity in practice as their speeches would suggest. Look at t

It does take at least a generation to get mental acceptance of the population for a move from nation-governments to a federal one. It took quite long for USA, and it's still state rights often become an issue; and it will take still quite some time in Europe.

In the case of Ireland EU was going against the political powers of Ireland and the public opinion there.

In the case of introducing rules on "EU interest" EU will be going along with the public opinion and politics in more than half of the EU countries. The only one to oppose that will probably be Britain and I would not be so sure about that one either.

But lets stop trying to win petty economic battles in lost wars... Democracies always seem to resort to trade restrictions when confronted by another majority. Its no fun anymore when you are suddenly out numbered by your own ideology.

Human beings are prone to human nature in any and all cultural landscapes. I read that in a fortune cookie (an American custom).

Personally, I like Chinese Food, and I look forward to prosperity and success for all nationalities no matter what economic policies are negotiated, or implemented. Just make sure not to squander life or liberty if wealth belongs to someone else... Other people are people, too.

Let's do China one better, and buy its tech companies and loot their assets! What's that you say? China has laws on the books prohibiting the sale or investment of companies which may damage its national interest? Entire industries are restricted [chinadaily.com.cn]? And there are parts of China's economy totally prohibited from any foreign investment whatsoever [xing.com]? Surely Europe and America can trust this country and not apply any reciprocal policies that fuck over China as much as China fucks over foreign firms.

You might laugh now, but consider that inflation is calculated by a "goods basket" that includes a lot of things, and 'for some odd reason', recently a lot of electronics moved into that basket. Why? Because electronics are getting cheaper and cheaper, and hence keep inflation down. You don't want to know what inflation would actually be like if you remove cheap China crap and just rely on, say, food, transportation and local services. Hint: One digit is not enough to represent

They'll simply seize your assets when they feel threatened. They don't really care about the legality of it or the public image. You're comparing a communist state with a democracy.

Yes, and in this country we have a large number of ways to grab land. You can seize land used in the commission of a felony, and there are many victimless felonies. Banks have been selling people's houses to other people without even telling them and then they get a 72 hour notice. And then there's eminent domain... So in reality, you're comparing them, and finding that they are directly comparable.

If someone would directly or indirectly cause a prohibited country to benefit whether by hostile takeover, scuttling of the company, or any other means of takeover, then anyone involved in such a takeover can be pursued for treason in the member country.

If China wants to be despotic, it's going to have a lot of blood on its hands that it cant wash off. The only way you deal with China's despots is with hardball.

If someone would directly or indirectly cause a prohibited country to benefit whether by hostile takeover, scuttling of the company, or any other means of takeover, then anyone involved in such a takeover can be pursued for treason as defined in the member country, and can be pursued anywhere in the world.

Remember all those people that said that Africans are just poor and starving because they're lazy bums who could have it just as good as us if they just got off their collective ass and started working?

Personally, I do not mind if they become #1. I object because they are cheating the whole way and it is obvious that top pols are in a cold war with the west. And yet, of the flower childs running around the west scream give China a chance. I say, let those flower childs (and the GD CEOs that move the jobs there) to MOVE TO CHINA AND STAY THERE.

Actually, the US got into power by waiting out until all major powers in Europe were badly bloodied by WWII, and then picking a side and trading old equipment for world dominance. See, e.g. destroyers for bases, lend-lease, etc.

Then, after the war, the US was easily able to attract talent by money - the so called "brain drain".

It is doubtful copyrights were even in the game, especially given the fact that the rules were largely synchronized immediately postwar, and the copyrights mostly covered literature anyway.

While the US didn't become one of the world's only two superpowers until after World War II, the US had already become a major economic player by the end of the 19th century. European literature of the time is filled with angst that those uncouth ex-colonials were buying up everything and signalling the demise of Europe.

Yes, absolutely, getting the footing of UK's naval might post-WWII had absolutely nothing to do with the US gaining super-power status.

Not having its cities bombed to smithereens, not having its economy devastated, not having lost a large percentage of its population was not a factor either.

Grabbing a large amount of science and technology for free from friend and foe as spoils of war and repayment for services rendered, and sucking up the best brains just because US offered better conditions wasn't a facto

That sad old "narrative" pops up in every single China thread on Slashdot, ever. Hint: the US did not "get into power" that way, and China's wholesale technology theft is orders of magnitude larger than that practiced by a 19th century agricultural nation. *sigh*

What worries me is that there's not like some 100 millions but rather 1.3 BILLION people, we're not talking about a country that's completely devoid of any reasonable resources, and most certainly we're not talking about a democracy or something else that has to deal with useless crap like labor laws or giving a shit about its people's health.

Mr. Lowell visited water-powered mills in England and managed to memorize all the critical details. He then returned home to the US, got together some investors, and set up shop on the Merrimack River in what is now called Lowell, Massachusetts.

That led to quite a bit, because you then need mechanical engineering and mechanics.

Yes, but the reason the US machines were able to take off is because the European mills were all destroyed or put out of business by the people who worked, owned, or invested in the manually run non-industrialized mills. If the Europeans hadn't so soundly rejected the new processes then industry in the US would have floundered by being unable to produce goods at competitive prices.

Today we remember these angry Europeans -- who are infamous for storming the new mills and breaking the machines -- for the name of one of the most outspoken among them: George Ludd. Yes, they were the Luddites.

Yes, the plans were stolen away to the US, but they were not being used in Europe because the technology was socially unacceptable!

I'm pretty sure that machines were used in Europe, the Luddites were not successful. Although they had the right intentions: machinery lowered the pay and job security of the workers for the benefit of the mill owners.

What I'm wondering, is why Americans on Internet forums are so unknowledgeable about the things they talk about. It seems the less they know about a topic, the more passionately they talk about it.

Although they had the right intentions: machinery lowered the pay and job security of the workers for the benefit of the mill owners.

How is that possibly "the right intentions"? Labor saving technologies are the reason we aren't all subsistence farmers. They are, almost to the exclusion of anything else, the way people on "the bottom" can increase their standard of living.

I'm pretty sure that machines were used in Europe, the Luddites were not successful. Although they had the right intentions: machinery lowered the pay and job security of the workers for the benefit of the mill owners.

You left out the part about the dramatic rise in living standards thanks to this industrialization. Peasants/the proletariat/minimum wage workers have always been abused by those with more power and industrialization didn't change this fact. Unions rose up to fight for the factory workers, a

Okay.... ummmm. I feel obliged to point out that the slave trade was actually a force AGAINST industrialization. And every worker in the lowell factories was free-born. (by that time, MA was a free state) while I'm sure some existed, I'm not actually aware of a single "company" that utilized slave labor. And, honestly, I doubt there were very many. Industrialization effectively ended the slave trade, because slaves are not economically feasible as industrial workers.

And yet, of the flower childs running around the west scream give China a chance.

Who are you talking about here? The "flower children" are pretty much screaming at China in the name of a Free Tibet and the Dalai Lama. The "give China a chance" crowd are the über corporatist/capitalists.

More to the point they have a huge underclass and are facing fundamental resource limits which will prohibit improving the lives of those people. Limits like the supply of energy, food, water and land. Industrialisation will make a few Chinese people rich but if the wealth doesn't trickle down (I don't think it can) then the political situation will become very unstable.

I don't think China is quite as stupidly free market fundamentalist as us... I think at some point in the future after we have outsourced all we can outsource China is going to change it's monetary and tariff policy to go from a trade surplus country to a sustainable trade deficit country (you can sustain a trade deficit indefinitely if you have enough income from foreign investment, which we don't... our trade deficit is fueled by debt, not investment in China). At which point it won't just allow wage i

ah but the danger in unstable growth is the desire for more . . and they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it. I feel for the people and for the animals and the environment that might be destroyed because of this. But alas, we must let it play out as it will . . .

Why not?It's a libertarian's dream so long as they don't say anything bad about the government. Those with the wealth (or a company with wealth) have far more rights than those of the average individual and the government doesn't stop them with pesky minimum wage, safety and emissions laws. What are you waiting for? All you guys that complain about having to pay too much for staff, about how unions always get in the way, how the government won't let your company pollute and how the shit hits the fan when a worker is injured or dies - just shut up and move to China.

The libertarian dream is not about wealth. The libertarian dream is about ownership of self, and protection of one's rights from harm by another (such as the government or a boss locking you inside a burning factory). China does not respect either of those philosophies.

it is easy to become a superpower if you are able to dominate more than half of the world into a dominion, allowing you to use their raw resources cheaply and monopolizingly, and use them as markets to export.

Flower children? You kidding? Nobody likes China. Trust me on that one, even the "left" people I know despise them for "betraying Marxism and turning it into Fascism". There is no "give China a chance" sentiment amongst anyone.

It is really hard to believe what kind of crap becomes policy courtesy of the European Commission these days.

It is even funnier when you consider that the EC is basically very close to the Chinese Politburo -- the Commission is neither elected by the people whose money it liberally wastes, nor effectively accountable to anyone, but the backroom dealers in Europe.

Zero governments are elected in Europe, they are appointed by parliament. In a few cases the head of the government is elected, but the normal way is that the prime minister is appointed by the speaker of the parliament / king / queen and then forms the government. The government is then approved by parliament.

The same happens in the EU. The commission is appointed by the states and then subject to the approval of parliament. The commission is further fully accountable to the parliament. The parliament have

The US can. Stop accepting items from China which don't meet our safety and environmental regulations. And put a tariff on their items sufficient to make them effectively as expensive as they would be without the illegal Yuan manipulation that China has engaged in.

As it is, China barely has any advantage at all in terms of cost of labor. In fact a number of companies are bringing their Chinese operations back to the US because they were spending more on labor than they were in the US.

Not as long as Helicopter Bernanke is in power of the Fed. Bernanke has no problem at all growing the Fed balance sheet into the stratosphere if it's necessary to sustain jobs. If China refuses to buy US debt at low interest rates he will... the same thing goes for the UK, there too inflation is a secondary concern to maintaining jobs, their central bank will absorb as much debt as necessary to keep interest rates low. Only the EU is really in danger of throwing it's economy off a cliff because Germany is

China has a bigger economy than Japan because it has 10 times as many people living there. China's economy is only 1.025 times larger than Japan's, which means than on a per-capita basis, China still has a long way to go. I think some provinces in China will reach Japanese levels of GDP per capita, but not all of them.

Cut a deal with them. That's what diplomacy (unwritten, so no leaks) is for. China is the natural master of Asia since the US nuked the other contender a while back. They exist, cannot be dictated to, and have an interest along with all truly civilized people in resisting religion. They have much more scope than a democracy in doing this, because religion cannot be restrained by democracy.

Chinese methods against Falun Gong cultists and against Muslim Uighers are fairly effective and should be encouraged. If