You all may recall that RennTech set the overall MB 1/4 mile record of 10.27@137 a couple months back. We were given a mod list by the owner SGC and Renntech of drag radials, higher stall torque converter, limited slip diff, custom exhaust, modified intercooler, carbon ceramic brakes, and race gas only tune. We couldn't understand how this car on stock turbos was trapping so much higher than other M275 V12 twin turbo cars. It would seem the answer is nitrous as a video has popped up showing the lines in the engine bay, check it out yourself.

Good points! However I was under the impression that this renntech 65 was trapping 7mph faster than any other renntech 65 with similar mods. Is this not correct?

No that is NOT correct. There is no RENNtech 65 that has gotten the mods or treatment that Steve's car has. Steve pushes his car to the limits, many of RENNtech's 65 owners don't go that far - not even close.

No that is NOT correct. There is no RENNtech 65 that has gotten the mods or treatment that Steve's car has. Steve pushes his car to the limits, many of RENNtech's 65 owners don't go that far - not even close.

But something was found, lines were found in a video somebody made that was not "officially" following up on his challenge, correct?

The lines were not just found now or with the appearance of that video.... those lines have been on the car and talked about for the past 2+ years, they are NOT new.

Originally Posted by Sticky

It does not prove the nitrous, but it certainly is evidence in support of it.

It supports the "possibility" of nitrous but not it's use so still very inconclusive.

Originally Posted by Sticky

If someone said, "Hey, I'm coming down to check your car out" then likely he would hide the evidence or maybe not even be available. This happened when he was unaware.

Nope.... like I said before, at least 2 people actually took up his offer and went to check out his car. Also, we can set it up so that it would be at the 1/4 mile track. Check the car and run right after - this way we avoid any confusion.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Guy lives on the other side of the country, not much I can do. I can tell you I would have no problem following up on this if he was in SoCal.

A trip to Florida and back can take a day or two at most and cost $500.... but why go this far, we can easily have one of the many car enthusiasts in Florida do it for us.

Originally Posted by Sticky

But the cars already trapping in the high 120's are turbo limited?

I don't understand what you mean by that comment? Marko's car trapped 130 mph with stock turbos.

Originally Posted by Sticky

8 mph is basically 100 whp. Where is it coming from? Not carbon brakes.

Dodger's C63 trapped 6-7 mph more mostly from weight reduction. He has the same headers and tune as mthis but his car is much lighter. These C63 are naturally aspirated, I would imagine the results would be even more exaturated with turbos. I'm not saying the power was only due to weight savings, but it definitely played a major role. Also his car traps 8 mph more than your average non MHP car.

Originally Posted by Sticky

The MHP car with the big shot of nitrous was working through torque transmission and torque limiter issues as I recall, so theoretically it still stands to improve greatly since the nitrous isn't even showing the full potential yet.

The V12s also have major torque limiter issues that companies have not fully unlocked yet.

The lines were not just found now or with the appearance of that video.... those lines have been on the car and talked about for the past 2+ years, they are NOT new.

It's new to me and a few others, I didn't realize this was posted before as the video upload date is recent?

Originally Posted by Exeenom

It supports the "possibility" of nitrous but not it's use so still very inconclusive.

I agree, it certainly lends credence to the nitrous theory.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Nope.... like I said before, at least 2 people actually took up his offer and went to check out his car. Also, we can set it up so that it would be at the 1/4 mile track. Check the car and run right after - this way we avoid any confusion.

So people checked his car when it was trapping 136 or whatever it was and running low 10's?

Originally Posted by Exeenom

A trip to Florida and back can take a day or two at most and cost $500.... but why go this far, we can easily have one of the many car enthusiasts in Florida do it for us.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

I don't understand what you mean by that comment? Marko's car trapped 130 mph with stock turbos.

Yep, and that is the upper range, right? So how exactly is another 100 whp being squeezed out of them?

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Dodger's C63 trapped 8 mph more mostly from weight reduction. He has the same headers and tune as mthis but his car is much lighter. These C63 are naturally aspirated, I would imagine the results would be even more exaturated with turbos. I'm not saying the power was only due to weight savings, but it definitely played a major role.

There is no way he gained 8 mph from weight reduction alone. That would require 800 pounds removed, not happening. There is no amount of weight loss here that can account for 8 mph.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

The V12s also have major torque limiter issues that companies have not fully unlocked yet.

I did not know this, but with 900 torque or whatever they are making I can understand it.

No that is NOT correct. There is no RENNtech 65 that has gotten the mods or treatment that Steve's car has. Steve pushes his car to the limits, many of RENNtech's 65 owners don't go that far - not even close.

Interesting. I was under the impression that both the cars in V12Godspeed's post were renntech tunes.

Originally Posted by V12Godspeed

This has been the Million dollar question. I like Steve (SGC), we have exchanged various texts in the past and I am sure he is a nice guy, but myself having owned a 65 with full modifications identical to his...I managed to trap 128. The other car from member Marko, (white one) trapped 130 on a cold day and his car had a more advanced tune than mines since he was closer to speedriven, However we ran nearly the exact same ET's. I ran a 10.72 and he ran a 10.73.

The other question is that from one record to the next on Steve's car its been posted that there is no difference in boost pressure. How did his car add 7 mph in the 1320 with no obvious additional power and without significant weight loss? Not saying it cant be done just curious about a logical explanation. Did renntech unlock the torque limiter map between Steves two record runs? If yes this would be a major component in seeking the answers.

From 2003 to early 2010, the quickest/fastest non-nitrous E55s trapped an average of 124 mph. RENNtech released a new 82 mm TB, a new version of their airbox, and a new tune. All of a sudden, after 7+ years of trying, E55s that added those mods (or similar) started trapping 130+ mph. Alan (bassn_07) went from trapping 122 mph to 135 mph after adding: 82mm TB, RT Air Box, long-tube headers, and a new tune. He gained 13 mph in his trap speeds. Yes, there has been major advancements in the tune and a few better version of the mods: bigger pulley, better cooling, etc...

Similarly, in the V12 situation, RENNtech has been making advancements in their ECU tune, TCU tune, air box mods, cooling mods, transmission mods, etc... Consequently, I don't doubt that Steve is making a bit more power than he did earlier.

Originally Posted by Sticky

There is no way he gained 8 mph from weight reduction alone. That would require 800 pounds removed, not happening. There is no amount of weight loss here that can account for 8 mph.

Well.... you can ask him and Andy from MHP. They are both straight-forward shooters, they won't lie to you. Dodger and Mthis both have race tunes and full MHP long-tubes headers. Dodgers, however, has CF hood, CF trunk, passenger seat removal, ultra light-weight driver's racing seat, light-weight battery, light-weight rotors, light-weight wheels, etc.... you can examine his car as well if you like

Originally Posted by Sticky

I did not know this, but with 900 torque or whatever they are making I can understand it.

Interesting. I was under the impression that both the cars in V12Godspeed's post were renntech tunes.

Nope... V12Godspeed had the same mods but from different companies, so we're talking about different tunes, different parts, etc....

Originally Posted by Mike@MHP

The other question is that from one record to the next on Steve's car its been posted that there is no difference in boost pressure. How did his car add 7 mph in the 1320 with no obvious additional power and without significant weight loss? Not saying it cant be done just curious about a logical explanation. Did renntech unlock the torque limiter map between Steves two record runs? If yes this would be a major component in seeking the answers.

Steve has made so many different passes over the past 2 years, so I'm not sure exactly when the quote was made and which runs he or you are exactly referring to. His previous run was 10.40x and before that it was 10.6x.... I believe the trap speeds went from 133 mph to 135 mph to 137 mph. Oh and part of that improvement was DA as well.

Steve has made so many different passes over the past 2 years, so I'm not sure exactly when the quote was made and which runs he or you are exactly referring to. His previous run was 10.40x and before that it was 10.6x.... I believe the trap speeds went from 133 mph to 135 mph to 137 mph. Oh and part of that improvement was DA as well.

Now this makes sense. It was not a 7 mph jump from his previous renntech tune to his current one. But slow but steady increase in trap and et...Great Info!

Alan (bassn_07) went from trapping 122 mph to 135 mph after adding: 82mm TB, RT Air Box, long-tube headers, and a new tune. He gained 13 mph in his trap speeds.

Correct me if Im wrong but,werent his times recorded at that track(famosa,sac,or something,im not sure which one) with the $#@!ed up timing equipment? Equipment that has been very well documented as being off significantly?

From 2003 to early 2010, the quickest/fastest non-nitrous E55s trapped an average of 124 mph. RENNtech released a new 82 mm TB, a new version of their airbox, and a new tune. All of a sudden, after 7+ years of trying, E55s that added those mods (or similar) started trapping 130+ mph. Alan (bassn_07) went from trapping 122 mph to 135 mph after adding: 82mm TB, RT Air Box, long-tube headers, and a new tune. He gained 13 mph in his trap speeds. Yes, there has been major advancements in the tune and a few better version of the mods: bigger pulley, better cooling, etc...

Similarly, in the V12 situation, RENNtech has been making advancements in their ECU tune, TCU tune, air box mods, cooling mods, transmission mods, etc... Consequently, I don't doubt that Steve is making a bit more power than he did earlier.

You of all people know how Sacramento is and how DA affects results. These new runs are in positive DA in Florida, not negative which would at least strengthen SGC's case. Too much aligns against him.

I do understand how tuning evolves over time. Perhaps we could get some details that would explain the jump as so far we do not have them?

Clearly Alan gained a lot of power with his new mods.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Well.... you can ask him and Andy from MHP. They are both straight-forward shooters, they won't lie to you. Dodger and Mthis both have race tunes and full MHP long-tubes headers. Dodgers, however, has CF hood, CF trunk, passenger seat removal, ultra light-weight driver's racing seat, light-weight battery, light-weight rotors, light-weight wheels, etc.... you can examine his car as well if you like

I'm familiar with his car, his times make sense to me especially on the track and conditions they run in. No secret they like the "fast" tracks

I understand, but it bolsters it and adds fuel to the fire so to speak. If weakens the no nitrous claim.

As long as it doesn't prove anything on either side, it remains an inconclusive speculation.... it will only add to the fire in the hearts of those who can't believe his times especially without knowing the platform good enough or knowing him for that matter.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I see, but on the runs that picked up considerable MPH, nobody checked...

SGC has no one specific run that picked up 7 mph.... it was rather a slow gradual gain from run to run. I don't know who started that rumor either

Originally Posted by Sticky

You of all people know how Sacramento is and how DA affects results. These new runs are in positive DA in Florida, not negative which would at least strengthen SGC's case. Too much aligns against him.

You have to remember that having negative DA does not automatically give you better times. MikesAMG (Alan's friend) ran quicker/faster at Famoso with higher DA and worse 60' time. SGC's time in positive DA makes his runs even more amazing

Originally Posted by Sticky

I do understand how tuning evolves over time. Perhaps we could get some details that would explain the jump as so far we do not have them?

I'm not sure any company will go on a public forum and say here is how we made our tune better and here is our secrets in unleashing more of the beast.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Clearly Alan gained a lot of power with his new mods. I'm familiar with his car, his times make sense to me especially on the track and conditions they run in. No secret they like the "fast" tracks

Even if you take away 3 mph from his Sacramento's time, he still would've gained 10 mph in trap speeds. If you think Alan's gained that much power mainly from long-tube headers and 82 mm TB, then SGC gaining a couple of mph from his previous runs is surely possible. Also, you keep forgetting how the C63 guys gain 6 mph from weight reduction alone, so a V12 twin turbo with more torque should (most definitely) be able to do the same.

Originally Posted by Sticky

This is true but the turbos will still have physical limitations no matter who is tuning them. The heads can only flow so much, etc.

All turbos, superchargers, and engines in general have physical limitations. Are you saying SGC reached the V12 limitation and then passed it or are you saying the limitation is not reached yet. The V12 twin turbo will continue to improve as long as companies like RENNtech and others continue to pour money into its research and development.

As long as it doesn't prove anything on either side, it remains an inconclusive speculation.... it will only add to the fire in the hearts of those who can't believe his times especially without knowing him.

True, but it is phsyical evidence. If there was no video with lines in the engine bay at the drag strip, this thread would not exist.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

There is no one run that picked up 7 mph.... it was rather a slow gradual gain from run to run. I don't know who started that rumor either

130's to 136? It was 120's, then low 130's, now mid to upper 130's? I don't know if I would call that gradual but there is a sharp increase.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

You have to remember that having negative DA does not automatically give you better times. MikesAMG (Alan's friend) ran quicker/faster at Famoso with higher DA and worse 60' time. SGC's time in positive DA makes his runs more amazing

I understand that, as Famoso is often better prepped which leads to a better ET. Trap records are pretty much always set in negative DA and obviously we won't argue what is better, positive or negative as it is obvious.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

I'm not sure any company will go on a public forum and say here is how we made our tune better and here is our secrets in unleashing more of the beast.

We aren't asking for the file itself but just basic and broad details? I totally agree they can't just give away a competitive advantage but why provide a mod list at all then?

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Even if you take away 3 mph from his Sacramento's time, he still would've gained 10 mph in trap speeds. If you think Alan's gained that much power mainly from long-tube headers and 82 mm TB, then SGC gaining a couple of mph from his previous runs is surely possible. Also, you keep forgetting how the C63 guys gain 6 mph from weight reduction alone, so a V12 twin turbo with more torque should (most definitely) be able to do the same.

6 mph from weight loss alone is 600 pounds.

MPH is HARD to pick up.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

All turbos, superchargers, and engines in general have physical limitations. Are you saying SGC reached the V12 limitation and then passed it or are you saying the limitation is not reached yet. The V12 twin turbo will continue to improve as long as companies like RENNtech and others continue to pour money into its research and development.

I'm saying I think all tuners will basically get those stock turbos to their limit as they are. Everyone knows the K24's quite well. There is a physical limiting factor which in my opinion everyone has reached.

The V12 has a HUGE ceiling, just it has reached what it can on the stock turbos.

I think Renntech could take this motor to 150+ with after-market turbos and who knows what else.

Correct me if Im wrong but,werent his times recorded at that track(famosa,sac,or something,im not sure which one) with the $#@!ed up timing equipment? Equipment that has been very well documented as being off significantly?

Yes, Sacramento had a big accident which forced the track to reinstall their timing equipment. When they reinstalled the equipment, they accidentally set the trap beams closer together than they should have been, which caused trap speeds to read higher by 0.5 mph to 3 mph depending on what speed range the cars were trapping. At 90 mph trap speeds, it was probably off by 0.8 mph and at 135 mph, it was off by 2.6 mph, etc...

Again, even if you subtract the extra 3 mph off his times, he still would've gained 10 mph. Also he has trapped 130 mph on racelogic a few times and I believe at Infineon Raceway as well. So even if you toss out his Sacramento run, his car still gained 10 mph out of no where..... but if you look deeper, you start to see that there's been major advancements in tune, power mods, and cooling mods, which eventually led to a significant increase in power.... power which was unavailable in the past.... power that people thought was impossible for over 7 years.