Im just not convinced that what Clark thinks is missing from 4e is a feeling that is widly held by the 4e community. I could be way off base here.Im not a 4e guy, so I know jack about anything thats just my gut opinion.

I think its going to depend a lot on what Clark thinks is missing. I also think that he should think very carefully about how he chooses to implement changes because there is a really significant danger of creating a game that is essentially incomputable with the rest of 4E. If he does that I think sales will essentially tank. I might even like what he has done but if I can't use it with the rest of my 4E material then I'm going to have to take a pass.

If, on the other hand, he supplements what 4E has done then I'm much more interested.

So for example he might decide to implement 'low level' D&D in his game. Now he can do that by redesigning all the classes and completely changing their power levels compared to standard 4E but I think that would be a big mistake.

A better option, IMO, would be to introduce negative levels. A 1st level 4E character has some pretty bucko hps and stats and such. Why not reverse engineer that so that a character starts off with significantly less stats at negative 5th level and maybe has no powers or feats few hps and does not gain any of the proficiency bonuses for using weapons. Then, over the course of 5 levels one could add all of these things back granting bonuses to stats that bring the character up to a 30 point buy, granting extra hps at each level and giving out the starting feats and proficiency bonuses. Couple this with templates and rules for reducing monsters in the same way and we can have low hp players fighting low hp kobolds and yet still be able to use all the rest of the material that everyone else is making for 4E once the players eliminate all the negative levels and become 1st level proper as 4E understands it to be. This method means that what NG is doing is still compatible with the...

You make some valid points. I think that for this kind of project to sell it needs to be more or less compatible with the current 4e rules set with a minimum of extra conversion work.

Not trying to hijack this, but I want to prevent the trainwreck from happening here that is happening at ENWorld and RPGNet.

*We arent making our own version of D&D.
*We arent going to compete with Pathfinder.
*I am not a newly converted 4E "hater."
*I havent "changed my tune" on 4E.
*I still like 4E.
*I play it.
*I want to support it (and I intend to support Pathfinder too).

What I said was this:
*I support the advancment of the game.
*BUT there are some things in 4E that I would like to change that I think could put back in the "soul" of D&D that I think is missing from 4E (your mileage may vary, and I am not trying to preach to you about how you should play D&D, I'm just talking about what I want and what I like).
*I am batting around the idea of doing a Monte-esque 4E rules supplement that would include those changes that I have in mind.
*One of the guys I batted it around with was Mona.
*This is still very embryonic and just me thinking outloud, really.
*It may not ever become anything more than me typing up house rules and putting them in my own binder.
*I pissed people off by using the phrase "anime" in a bad way and that was a mistake.

This all came about because I am a designer and I am bored waiting for the revised GSL :)

So, no, I dont hate 4E. I havent changed my tune. I havent given up on Pathfinder. :)

Save yourself the reading of the many threads on this :)

Clark

Hey clark, its entirely possible you won't see this, but i have one very quick question.

I really want to like E4, the simplisity of it has a sort of appeal to it, the ability to pull together an adventure in the space of about an hour, where an equivilant adventure in 3.5 should take me closer to five is cool, but despite this i find it increasingly difficult to like 4E

Now, having read your comments on the quoted thread and they seem to mirror some of my own feelings. I was just wondering what is it that you like about 4E?

In any case, while I own every single one of Necro's module products, after their "rah-rah 4e" they've become irrelevant to me (though not yet forgotten) for quite some time. Maybe that'll change... but maybe not.

(Needless to say, though - the flailing attack by the certain usual-suspect 4e cheerleaders over on ENWorld is quite a hoot to watch. Can't... accept... any... perceived... criticism of 4e...!)

I think we can call 4th the evolution of D&D. Evolution sometimes is a lateral process that can end in a dead end.

It might be that 4th turns out to be th Homo Sapins Sapiens of RPGs. The game best suited for a lot of environments aka playstyles and the one that can adapt best to new situations.

Or it might be that the game turns out to be the Neanderthal of RPGs. Perfectly adapted to a special environment and situation (namely: Ice Age) but not able to adapt to other environments or situtions. Also the Neanderthal could not compete with the Homo Sapiens Sapiens in the long run.

Regardless of the outcome of 4.0, I will continue to play, and love, 3.5 As I have enough books, modules (yes, I said it right), and supplemental material to last a lifetime that I purchased the "last go 'round" Wizards decided to change everything around. Dont get me wrong, I was eagerly anticipating 4.0, but having purchased and read the 3 core books, I feel the changeover was not necessary. With that, I feel I have enough imagination to continue on with 3.5 in the unforseeable future, despite the lack of future products for said game system. This Sunday, as with every Sunday for the past 27 years (since I was 12, you do the math), We will be playing D&D at my house. Whether it be Advanced D&D or 3.5, but that will be about it.

As someone who got into 3.x literally months before 4e was announced, I fell into a strange place.

I was a new gamer, learning a system that was getting phased out by the publisher. However, it was amazingly well supported and I got hooked on Malhavoc Press's stuff and Necro's stuff.

4e came out, and it just wasn't for me. Partly because I spent a bit of cash in a short amount of time on 3.x stuff and partly because I didn't care for a number of the changes from what I'd just learned.

Then Pathfinder comes along and I've been following it and incorporating it in my games.

So, I'm happy to see that Necromancer Games will hopefully be doing Pathfinder stuff as well as 4e. Mainly because I enjoyed the Tomes of Horror and the Mother of All Treasure Tables so much.