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opinions, what good are they?

I have something of a problem, I have opinions.
My opinions of the world today make me feel like we are all standing on the abyss of Zombie apocalypse, ok maybe a slight exaggeration lol but if one has just a smidgen of interest in how our world is run, it's inequalities and selfishness, its reliance on force and selective use of human rights one tends to develop opinions.
Yet when I am meditating, my opinion-free time, if I hear a bird sing or my dog nuzzles up to me for a cuddle the world, my little world,my bit of space and time, is fine.
But I am not starving, I am not being shot at, I have not lost my job in an austerity purge to pay for bankers bonuses.
I am wondering, what good are opinions, i cannot change the world, I am only responsible for my world, yet if we all thought like that, if we didn't have opinions our societies could never change, who would speak up for those who cannot speak themselves
My opinions create waves inside me, which turn into tsunamis when someone disagrees with me!!!
Is it a good thing or just selfish to withdraw from my opinions and just stroke my dog and listen to the birds singing?

I think opinions are our way to relate to an learn about the universe. Having opinions makes us understand what we like and what we want to stay away from.

The problem is when we attach to them. They make us obtuse and we won't see pass our own nose.

It's funny you post this. Today I had a phone conversation with my dad. If you think you have strong opinions, well meet Mr. Kyonin Sr., a guy who hates the universe (although he has a nice heart)

We were talking about science and technology and he said something like "And those god damned researches at universities. Hate them. They waste time inventing stupid things like flying robots instead of working".

He said that while speaking through the wonder of a phone, using a VOIP line that works over the Internet. All which were invented by the very researchers and scientists he despises!!!

His opinion is so strong, so rooted inside, that he can't see the world freely, without judging.

When we sit, we drop opinions and destroy the wall that separates the Me from the Non-Me. It all comes together.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

Sometimes the worries of the world around us consumes us as if a fire was upon us. Sometimes the worries of the world need to be shushed. Sometimes a dog knows what is best for us. Sometimes the birds sing peace to our hearts.

I have something of a problem, I have opinions.
My opinions of the world today make me feel like we are all standing on the abyss of Zombie apocalypse, ok maybe a slight exaggeration lol but if one has just a smidgen of interest in how our world is run, it's inequalities and selfishness, its reliance on force and selective use of human rights one tends to develop opinions.
Yet when I am meditating, my opinion-free time, if I hear a bird sing or my dog nuzzles up to me for a cuddle the world, my little world,my bit of space and time, is fine.

I have opinions too. Lots and lots. That is part of what makes us human, and if they are good opinions, they are the first step in our doing something to perhaps fix some of those problems with the world you mention. The Buddha and Dogen had lots and lots of strong opinions, which they expressed in their Teachings as the right ways to Practice. Opinions are good and necessary to life, not themselves the problem.

However, this Practice is about simultaneously knowing a realm in which no opinions are needed, where birds just sing and zombies just zombie ... even as there are no birds, or zombies, or you and me to be chased by them. Perhaps we might say that only the Song remains singing us all. (When we do so, a vibrant Wisdom and Compassion will arise that will even change some of our opinions!)

Further, this Practice is about not being caught up and imprisoned by those opinions we have. Can you hold them lightly, have opinions without being excessively opinionated ... even as you may work for the achievement of your vision passionately? Can you be willing to let go if the opinions fail or prove wrong ... even as you seek to prove them right?

So, that's the ticket ... hold opinions, trying diligently to make this life-world-self better, but hold them lightly. At the same timeless time, drop all opinions and let all just go, just be. All at once, as one.

A subtle power of this Practice is that we can come to live doing all of that at once.

thanks for your post Stev. I too have lots of opinions sometimes they work for me, sometimes they don't. One of the things that I am practicing in my life during Ango and hopefully afterwards is ... share my opinions, but try not to have an expectation of some result. I find this hard, but hopefully the more I practice the more natural it becomes

I laugh at myself sometimes thinking, "hello, Michael ... you give things away all the time with no expectation, why can't you do it here?"

Gassho
Michael

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

RINDO SHINGEN
倫道 真現

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

Yes, like with thoughts, there can be freedom from opinions in the midst of opinions.

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

I remember a TV presenter (an American Football coach) who was involved in a TV programme I was working on a few years ago. He said his father had told him " Opinions are like old socks. Everyone's got them...and most of them stink"

I was going to start a thread with the title "I am not my judgments," but I guess I'll just tack it on here somewhat disjointedly.

I am not my judgments. There, I said it, publicly no less. It's very hard to admit, though, because judgments are what we use to construct this thing we call a self. What are we if not a set of judgments (or opinions)? The reason I wanted to post this is because I have been trying to trace back my frustrations with work. It can be very dissatisfying at times, very dukka, and that's because I have all these judgments about how it is supposed to be but is not. Basic Buddhist stuff here, and applying it to my life overall is fairly fine, and applying it to the general idea of my work is fine, but when I get down to the nitty gritty of practicing it in that very moment when judgments meet lots of resistance with reality is not so fine. Students are not how I want them to be; they do things that I judge as "bad." The administration is not how I want it to be; it's values seem to conflict with mine and as a result they do things that I judge as "bad." I am very passionate about what I do, and I am passionate about students succeeding, and it's that very passion that leads me to all these judgments, which in turn lead to conflicts -- both internal and external, but still all me -- that I react to passionately. The result of all this is me as dukka, so lately when these nitty gritty moments arise, my manta has been "I am not my judgments." The balance I am trying to find with that little mantra is to not be so attached to something I feel passionately about, but that's kind of an oxymoron, which makes it very zen, I suppose. Thus I practice daily in many ways and places.

I am not talking about a passive acceptance here at all. I do try to make change, but the riptide is strongly against me in the other direction. So again, finding that balance of going with the flow while paddling in the other direction, wanting to go in one direction while being pulled opposite, all while understanding I can't get out of the surf because it's all water everywhere. I just need to keep my head above water.

I'm very attached to what I'm passionate about, no doubt about it. But I think if you discover something is off you just need to adjust course. Holding opinions too tightly is too much, too tunnel-visioned. If you don't hold any, then it's just nihilistic inaction, like you are dead or giving up. But if you can hold them just right, like being passionate which is a gift to truly find something that you can give yourself to with all your being, you can act but adjust when you need to.

Anyone here who uses linux Mint or Ubuntu here knows of the 'Terminal' where one can control one's whole computer if you have the knowledge. I have two, one is called CLI companion which is an aid for computer dummies like me to use the terminal and the actual terminal. I accidentally clicked on the CLI Companion just before writing this reply. When it comes up on the screen the 'Terminal' always has a piece of advice. Today the CLI was.
.
_________________________________
/ You are taking yourself far too \
\ seriously. /
---------------------------------
\
\ \_\_ _/_/
\ \__/
(oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\

I laughed out aloud when I read I was taking myself too seriously. I was about to write that it is not possible to be passionate about one's beliefs, opinions or judgments and at the same time let go of that passion. I am not speaking of opinions on fashion or the colour of a man's politics, I am speaking of passionate beliefs about what is right and what is wrong, and questioning is it worth being passionate at all about this worldly illusion that most of us have to take part in to survive.

Then I clicked on the 'Terminal' and read "You are fighting for survival in your own sweet and gentle way" (is the pic a little meditating Buddha??)
Actually a tear came to my eye! My first thought after reading that was 'passion' itself is the illusion that colours opinions, beliefs, judgments. To have opinions is neither right or wrong, good or bad, to let go of the passion that drives them, allows one to have opinions in a 'sweet and gentle way'.

It was AlanLa's Mantra -

""I am not my judgments." The balance I am trying to find with that little mantra is to not be so attached to something I feel passionately about, but that's kind of an oxymoron, which makes it very Zen, I suppose."

That really got me thinking, It does seem really Zen but if the passion is just an illusion (just the feeling created by the opinion, the thought) then it is certainly not an oxymoron.

So by having opinions in a 'sweet and gentle way', well let's drop the 'sweet' bit, by having opinions in a gentle way (without the illusion of passion) one can -

"hold opinions, trying diligently to make this life-world-self better, but hold them lightly. At the same timeless time, drop all opinions and let all just go, just be. All at once, as one." Jundo.

Ok that is my take on my question and whether I am right or wrong I do feel I have moved a little forward. Thank you.

Gassho

Steve

hmmm for some reason the terminal pics have ended up all jumbled up on this post, shame because the second one really looked like a little Buddha!!

Is it a good thing or just selfish to withdraw from my opinions and just stroke my dog and listen to the birds singing?

Stev, to the ending question of your post, I would answer: it is always and everywhere a good thing to stroke your dog and listen to the birds singing!

I also think within your question I hear another question besides the question "What good are opinions?". I think I also hear the question, "Is it okay to be at peace (or happy),when others are suffering?" (Forgive me, if I misinterpret and read too much into your question.)

To which, I still think it is always and everwhere a good thing to stroke your dog and listen to the birds singing. I think for doing so, you are better able to help where you can. At least when I do so, I am kinder, gentler, and more able to wade in and try to help. Not to mention, my dog is happier! Gassho, Grace.

Sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions are nothing more than personality differences or quirks. For example, I just read an interesting article on how the divide between people who love or hate the taste of cilantro may actually be partly genetically predetermined. We might have a strong opinion on whether cilantro is delicious or disgusting but there is no "truth" in one side or the other.

But sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions reflect something more universal. Something that I would argue is good, and worth upholding. When we see the world of samsara, and people preying on others and the environment, and it hurts us, or makes us angry, I don't believe that this is a "self-contained" experience. We are the universe. We are this world. And we feel the waves of suffering and unease passing through it. And it is our wonderful human gift that we want to make things better, we want to alleviate suffering. It is good we are moved, that love can guide us. And it's up to how we cultivate ourselves as to whether we let our being touched by the world's suffering make us hate more, or love more.

It is important that just as we try to take care of other beings, we also take care of ourselves. And what more wonderful way to take care of ourselves than to enjoy a nuzzle with a dog, or the song of a bird? By taking nothing away from anyone, we can fill ourselves up. This too is the universe, the world, experiencing itself. This too is love, I think each goes hand in hand with the other. We cannot know peace if we ignore the suffering around us, but nor can we know peace if we cannot experience the perfection that is also always present.

Sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions are nothing more than personality differences or quirks. For example, I just read an interesting article on how the divide between people who love or hate the taste of cilantro may actually be partly genetically predetermined. We might have a strong opinion on whether cilantro is delicious or disgusting but there is no "truth" in one side or the other.

But sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions reflect something more universal. Something that I would argue is good, and worth upholding. When we see the world of samsara, and people preying on others and the environment, and it hurts us, or makes us angry, I don't believe that this is a "self-contained" experience. We are the universe. We are this world. And we feel the waves of suffering and unease passing through it. And it is our wonderful human gift that we want to make things better, we want to alleviate suffering. It is good we are moved, that love can guide us. And it's up to how we cultivate ourselves as to whether we let our being touched by the world's suffering make us hate more, or love more.

It is important that just as we try to take care of other beings, we also take care of ourselves. And what more wonderful way to take care of ourselves than to enjoy a nuzzle with a dog, or the song of a bird? By taking nothing away from anyone, we can fill ourselves up. This too is the universe, the world, experiencing itself. This too is love, I think each goes hand in hand with the other. We cannot know peace if we ignore the suffering around us, but nor can we know peace if we cannot experience the perfection that is also always present.

Beautiful post Stephanie!

Gassho,
Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

But sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions reflect something more universal. Something that I would argue is good, and worth upholding. When we see the world of samsara, and people preying on others and the environment, and it hurts us, or makes us angry, I don't believe that this is a "self-contained" experience. We are the universe. We are this world. And we feel the waves of suffering and unease passing through it. And it is our wonderful human gift that we want to make things better, we want to alleviate suffering. It is good we are moved, that love can guide us. And it's up to how we cultivate ourselves as to whether we let our being touched by the world's suffering make us hate more, or love more.

It is important that just as we try to take care of other beings, we also take care of ourselves. And what more wonderful way to take care of ourselves than to enjoy a nuzzle with a dog, or the song of a bird? By taking nothing away from anyone, we can fill ourselves up. This too is the universe, the world, experiencing itself. This too is love, I think each goes hand in hand with the other. We cannot know peace if we ignore the suffering around us, but nor can we know peace if we cannot experience the perfection that is also always present.

Sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions are nothing more than personality differences or quirks. For example, I just read an interesting article on how the divide between people who love or hate the taste of cilantro may actually be partly genetically predetermined. We might have a strong opinion on whether cilantro is delicious or disgusting but there is no "truth" in one side or the other.

But sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions reflect something more universal. Something that I would argue is good, and worth upholding. When we see the world of samsara, and people preying on others and the environment, and it hurts us, or makes us angry, I don't believe that this is a "self-contained" experience. We are the universe. We are this world. And we feel the waves of suffering and unease passing through it. And it is our wonderful human gift that we want to make things better, we want to alleviate suffering. It is good we are moved, that love can guide us. And it's up to how we cultivate ourselves as to whether we let our being touched by the world's suffering make us hate more, or love more.

It is important that just as we try to take care of other beings, we also take care of ourselves. And what more wonderful way to take care of ourselves than to enjoy a nuzzle with a dog, or the song of a bird? By taking nothing away from anyone, we can fill ourselves up. This too is the universe, the world, experiencing itself. This too is love, I think each goes hand in hand with the other. We cannot know peace if we ignore the suffering around us, but nor can we know peace if we cannot experience the perfection that is also always present.

Sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions are nothing more than personality differences or quirks. For example, I just read an interesting article on how the divide between people who love or hate the taste of cilantro may actually be partly genetically predetermined. We might have a strong opinion on whether cilantro is delicious or disgusting but there is no "truth" in one side or the other.

But sometimes our feelings, thoughts, and reactions reflect something more universal. Something that I would argue is good, and worth upholding. When we see the world of samsara, and people preying on others and the environment, and it hurts us, or makes us angry, I don't believe that this is a "self-contained" experience. We are the universe. We are this world. And we feel the waves of suffering and unease passing through it. And it is our wonderful human gift that we want to make things better, we want to alleviate suffering. It is good we are moved, that love can guide us. And it's up to how we cultivate ourselves as to whether we let our being touched by the world's suffering make us hate more, or love more.

It is important that just as we try to take care of other beings, we also take care of ourselves. And what more wonderful way to take care of ourselves than to enjoy a nuzzle with a dog, or the song of a bird? By taking nothing away from anyone, we can fill ourselves up. This too is the universe, the world, experiencing itself. This too is love, I think each goes hand in hand with the other. We cannot know peace if we ignore the suffering around us, but nor can we know peace if we cannot experience the perfection that is also always present.

Yes, I second or third that Stephanie ... very nice.

Gassho
Michael

RINDO SHINGEN
倫道 真現

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

Do we really do that, though? Do we really take ourselves and our opinions less seriously? Or are we pushing them down into our unconscious so they can bubble up and create havoc? I wonder if, as one grows older in the Dharma, a person simply HAS fewer preferences?

Do we really do that, though? Do we really take ourselves and our opinions less seriously? Or are we pushing them down into our unconscious so they can bubble up and create havoc? I wonder if, as one grows older in the Dharma, a person simply HAS fewer preferences?

I honestly don't know.

Chet

Hello Chet,

For what it's worth, I think that it's somewhere between your first and last sentence, at least with me. I still have opinions and preferences and whatnot, but ultimately I care much less about them. I'm sure that one could just suppress feelings and opinions and whatnot, but that sounds like a lot of work and I'm terribly lazy.

Do we really do that, though? Do we really take ourselves and our opinions less seriously? Or are we pushing them down into our unconscious so they can bubble up and create havoc? I wonder if, as one grows older in the Dharma, a person simply HAS fewer preferences?

I honestly don't know.

Chet

Don't know about anyone else, but it's certainly true for me (in a relative way, I suppose; I still have opinions and stuff). God, I remember (many years ago, thankfully) getting in physical fights with people over "ideas" and "stances": one time, I remember, because we had different ideas of what constituted "nature," and I was gonna be right dammit.

Now, not so much. Maybe it has something to do with teaching college kids and the fact that I'm constantly playing with opinions and stances that aren't my own - not sure. And I don't think it's repression or pushing these things down - or, most of the time it isn't. I mean, I can so easily look back on my strongly held opinions in my college years and see what an absolute moron I was. Frankly, if someone is a curious thinker, reader, etc, it has nothing to do with growing older in the Dharma, either - it just means growing up some and not seeing one's opinion as truth, and always trying to find the other side. As for fewer preferences, maybe, who knows, I'm still a baby in Dharma years, if that's how we're counting.

I'm guessing there are still opinions/preferences, but they are dealt with in a different way, or not at all. This is what I meant with "freedom from opinions in the midst of opinions". No internal discussion, no judging this and that, no worrying over choosing this or the other, no checking back to make sure your opinions are politically correct or that you won't look stupid. Trusting your opinions, so that you can stop worrying about them. And when you see opinions as opinions, views as views, they lose their power over you. Just opinions and views, not who you are.

Without opinions we wouldn't function very well. Imagine walking through the super market just picking things up randomly, without any regards to cost, whether you actually need it etc. Freedom from opinions in the midst of opinions means we don't have to work ourselves up over every little difference in price, quality or expiry date. When without thinking we blow every little choice out of proportion, I believe we also unnecessarily raise our stress levels and exhaust ourselves. Many small choices can be made spontaneously, simply picking one out of two cans of peas, trusting our ability to pick right and trusting our ability to deal with the results of our choice no matter what they turn out to be. Without thinking, you pick one. And you would probably pick the same one again, because you have an opinion, a preference. And it wouldn't surprise me if, with practice, what I now see as more difficult choices could become more like picking cans of peas in the super market.

Gassho,
Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

it has nothing to do with growing older in the Dharma, either - it just means growing up some and not seeing one's opinion as truth, and always trying to find the other side.

_/\_

/Pontus

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

I'm guessing there are still opinions/preferences, but they are dealt with in a different way, or not at all. This is what I meant with "freedom from opinions in the midst of opinions". No internal discussion, no judging this and that, no worrying over choosing this or the other, no checking back to make sure your opinions are politically correct or that you won't look stupid. Trusting your opinions, so that you can stop worrying about them. And when you see opinions as opinions, views as views, they lose their power over you. Just opinions and views, not who you are.

Without opinions we wouldn't function very well. Imagine walking through the super market just picking things up randomly, without any regards to cost, whether you actually need it etc. Freedom from opinions in the midst of opinions means we don't have to work ourselves up over every little difference in price, quality or expiry date. When without thinking we blow every little choice out of proportion, I believe we also unnecessarily raise our stress levels and exhaust ourselves. Many small choices can be made spontaneously, simply picking one out of two cans of peas, trusting our ability to pick right and trusting our ability to deal with the results of our choice no matter what they turn out to be. Without thinking, you pick one. And you would probably pick the same one again, because you have an opinion, a preference. And it wouldn't surprise me if, with practice, what I now see as more difficult choices could become more like picking cans of peas in the super market.

Gassho,
Pontus

It's interesting how you found refuge in an example of consumer choice as the metaphor by which to expound - it shows just how much marketplace thinking has come to dominate our consciousnesses. One brand of cereal is as good as any other, all opinions have merit, etc...

Except they don't as they apply to an actual referent. That is to say, all things are open to interpretation, but some interpretations are vastly more accurate, and hence qualitatively better, than others. For instance, a better informed opinion is likely to be more accurate. It's not a guarantee - a 'community of the qualified' once insisted that the sun revolved around the earth....but these exceptions pop out so much because of their relative infrequency.

My point is that qualitatively equating all opinions is a particularly insipid trap that should be resisted.

My point is that qualitatively equating all opinions is a particularly insipid trap that should be resisted.

Yes, I'm not saying all opinions (all cereals! ) are equal. Or that education/information is unimportant. I'm just saying we don't always have to use so much of a judgemental mind when judging what to do and instead trust that we will make the right choice. Even when you don't fret, worry and discuss for 5 minutes over which brand of peas you are going to pick, as I said, you still have a preference. Because you informed yourself? Because of commersials? Because you like one color more than the other? Lots of times our internal discussion is just trying to rationalize the choice we have already made.

Gassho,
Pontus

Last edited by Omoi Otoshi; 09-22-2012 at 07:55 AM.

In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

Good question, Chet, as usual. What I've been trying to do ever since my last post above is to just be more aware of my judgments and recognizing how empty they are, how they reflect conditioned thinking and hold no real truth at all. From that viewpoint it is easier to let them go. It's a lot like doing zazen: Oh, there's a judgment... and there it goes away. But I don't think it's suppression; rather it's owning them and then seeing through them. I still get them all the time, but their intensity fades a lot faster now. I've also tried to apply the precepts to them. Specifically, not talking bad about people (because most judgments involved some sort of conflict with other people's judgments, especially with election season upon us, but with work issues also), not praising my own ideas or elevating mine above others' ideas, and not stealing by letting people have their own ideas and recognizing their conditioned thought is the same process as I go through but with a different outcome. So I am just trying to pay more attention to the judgment process, whereas before it was all about those outcome judgments.

As a young adult I was filled with judgments, overflowing with them, because that's how we create this fictional self of ideas as separate from others. Even before I started the process described above, I slowed way down on all that judgment activity. It is SO exhausting to have opinions on everything. When you get older you don't have to work as hard, but the flip side is the judgments you still have are firmer because you've had longer to cement them in place.

As a young adult I was filled with judgments, overflowing with them, because that's how we create this fictional self of ideas as separate from others. Even before I started the process described above, I slowed way down on all that judgment activity. It is SO exhausting to have opinions on everything. When you get older you don't have to work as hard, but the flip side is the judgments you still have are firmer because you've had longer to cement them in place.