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I was in Portland to hear Valentina Lisitsa. Since I'm very close to buying a grand piano in the $20k+ range and I've checked out my local market a lot, I did some piano shopping there.

The first store I went to they were pretty friendly at first. They had a two instruments that I was extremely interested in. After playing for about 30 minutes, a little girl comes in with her piano teacher. While I'm playing the salesmen tell me to stop for a little bit so the girl can try out pianos with her teacher. After waiting a good 15 minutes (during which the girl played maybe 1-2 minutes), I started playing again. The salesman I was talking to came over and told me to stop, so I did. Another 15 minutes and the same thing - this girl has maybe been taking lessons 2 years and is obviously a beginner. For every minute she plays, her teacher is chatting with the salesman for 10. They told me to stop again... the third time another customer started playing so I played too. They told me she'd be done in 20 minutes. After 30 minutes (and her not playing more than 5 of that), I started playing again. When another salesman came up to I had it and left the store.

I drove 3 hours and was about to pay $20k cash for a piano, but I couldn't play because this little girl was trying out a few cheap uprights. Again, she was playing maybe 10% of the time. I was pretty pissed off.

So then I went to the next store in town. This is a very large store, and I had checked their website the day before. It turns out they weren't letting customers into the whole store because they were having a recital for kids. Why do they not bother telling their customers that they're basically closed the entire day on a busy weekend?

With the down economy I'm surprised that some piano stores are still in business.

The third store I went to actually knew what they were doing. I walked in and they told me they were having a recital... in their recital room. Their entire store was open and they showed me around. While I was playing a few times they politely asked me to keep it down for a few minutes while they pointed out pianos to another customer, which I had no problem with. It was a way better experience than the other two stores.

Yeah, your mistake in all three instances, presumably, was not calling ahead to schedule an appointment. That's kind of rule #1 for best service when dealing with piano stores, because they're different than Wal-Mart, ya know. Doing so ensures they recognize you as serious, will help minimize interruption/get attention from salespeople, and make sure that they are open for business. The Steinway dealer in Chicago has special events all the time, and so does the Fazioli dealer... they expect serious buyers to schedule appointments.

With regard to the first store, you don't even say whether you mentioned to the salesman that you were a serious buyer... even so, it is not unreasonable for them to ask you to stop playing after 30 minutes if there are other people in the store (who likely called ahead to, you know, schedule an appointment). Sorry, but no sympathy, here.

I told the dealer I was very serious about buying one of their instruments, and before they other people came he started pushing the sale on me.

In total I waited a full 60 minutes, not 30. The girl clearly wasn't that interested in trying out different pianos.

Sure, it would've been better if I called, but that's not what people expect these days. That's probably another reason why piano companies are going under. Customers expect that when you post your hours, you'll be open during those hours.

Oh, and I didn't have any problems at the third store, it was an example of a great experience. I guess you didn't actually read that part though, it was kind of a long post.

If you're ready to pay $20k in cash for a piano, I'll make you a deal. Pay $12k in cash, and buy me a $6k piano. Saves you $2k, you'll get the same quality, and I'll finally have a decent piano on which to play.

_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Yeah, your mistake in all three instances, presumably, was not calling ahead to schedule an appointment. That's kind of rule #1 for best service when dealing with piano stores, because they're different than Wal-Mart, ya know.

I'm honestly not buying that (not because it's not true, or because you said it or anything)! If this is the case then I have to agree that such businesses should close down...

It's absurd to think that a serious customer needs to notify over the phone/email in order to be taken seriously... Come on... He's ready to put down 20,000$ and he's trying out grand pianos. Isn't that enough to be treated at least with some dignity?

In total I waited a full 60 minutes, not 30. The girl clearly wasn't that interested in trying out different pianos.

Did you ask her? Maybe she was intimidated by your playing, or passive aggressive body language, etc. Your post has a hint of "me, me, me" in it, so I wouldn't find the latter surprising.

Originally Posted By: KillerCharlie

Sure, it would've been better if I called, but that's not what people expect these days. That's probably another reason why piano companies are going under. Customers expect that when you post your hours, you'll be open during those hours.

Really? I called my local WoodCraft store the other day to make sure they had something I needed before I drove the 15 minutes each way to get there and back. It's not hard. Piano dealers and companies are "going under" because supply>demand, among other factors.

Originally Posted By: KillerCharlie

Oh, and I didn't have any problems at the third store, it was an example of a great experience. I guess you didn't actually read that part though, it was kind of a long post.

Of course I read it, but it seems that you missed the point of what I was saying. If you had called the first store, you might have been able to arrange a time for extended playing, and given enough notice, they might have even tuned the piano for you; if you had called the second store, you would have known that they were closed to the public that day; if you had called the third store, you would have gotten a heads up regarding the event, and possibly arranged to come earlier or later. Regardless of whether or not you are obligated to do this, it would have saved you time and grief.

I'm honestly not buying that (not because it's not true, or because you said it or anything)! If this is the case then I have to agree that such businesses should close down...

It's absurd to think that a serious customer needs to notify over the phone/email in order to be taken seriously... Come on...

A customer is free to do whatever he or she wants, but that isn't always the most prudent. When dealing with a specialty store such as a piano dealer, car dealer, or hi-fi audio dealer, etc. the customer should almost always schedule an appointment, and dress appropriately, for that matter. This isn't like going out and buying a box of Twinkies... you're conducting business. Most places welcome walk-ins, but even in these places, you will almost always get better service if you call ahead. Period.

Originally Posted By: Nikolas

He's ready to put down 20,000$ and he's trying out grand pianos. Isn't that enough to be treated at least with some dignity?

That's a little over-dramatic, eh? "The big, bad piano dealer let me play for only 30 minutes before asking me to let its other customers play!" Sure, the OP is frustrated and as a pianist, I understand that, but that's how life goes, sometimes.

When I was piano shopping for a few months earlier this year (more like $100k), I never walked into a piano store unannounced expecting to play. Some occasions I called in to make an appointment, and was told that it was available now.

Most cases involved making an appointment (for a full 2 hours).

Always make an appointment - or expect not to be able to play continuously. Which, I suspect, the teacher had done. In that case, the teacher was probably the customer - but the girl was the one whose parents would be paying for the piano.

Here in Piano Forum, we often mention dealer service. Obviously a customer was offend by the treatment he received and that is not the mark of a top-notch dealership.

Is a phone call necessary prior to a visit? Not at all. The staff should be ready to assist any and all customers during regular business hours. If there is private usage, such as a recital, then it is how well the staff explains the situation that is important. An invitation from the staff to return at a better time would be expected. For a serious buyer, this is often accomplished "after hours."

One thing that all customers should expect is to be treated well when entering any retail showroom. How the staff handles any situation is an indicator of the quality of the dealership. A shopper should not put up with rudeness or ill-mannered treatment. Take your checkbook elsewhere.

While allowing shoppers to evaluate instruments is a basic tenent of piano sales, most stores aren't structured to allow more than one player at a time. Even a single player can make it difficult for staff to talk to phone shoppers or each other. It is kinda like an "occupational hazzard".

A dealer has his music school's winter recitals coming and younger students need to be exposed to playing outside the teaching studio. They are at a scheduled lesson with another student coming in 30 minutes, so there is somewhat of a time urgency. Often the teacher, if they are good and have a strong following, is a major source of piano sales.

At the same time a well-meaning walk-in "player" comes in and begins evaluatiung pianos. Being the Christmas season another walk-in or a shopper with an appointment is present. And, of course, the phones are ringing off the hook!

I have been in this scenario hundreds of times. For most of my career our store also sold guitars, amps, band and orchestral instruments, all in one very large open space compounding the problem. Over years I developed "techniques" to handle these situations to everyone's satisfaction, but is is a learned skill.

Apparently the staff that was present in the first two of the Op's visits hadn't yet acquired the skill.

Perhaps, as a sales trainer and consultant, I should plan a trip to Portland!

I think one's first customer should be given full consideration before moving on to another, even if the latter has an appointment. However, one should point out to the first customer that someone with an appointment is due, and ask that the customer be considerate of that.

I also feel that 30 minutes of playing is more than enough time to evaluate a piano. I can get the gist of a piano with a chromatic scale, spending less than a minute. Much longer than that, and the differences become more imagined than real, or you end up deciding on the basis of factors which will change as the piano gets played in and serviced.

I've been in plenty of piano stores when another more accomplished player hogs the audio space of the store, and gives no concession to another player trying to get bar or two in. 30 minutes continuous is OTT IMHO without an appointment.

Maybe the OP's handle reflects his attitude. Or just read the first post. But, also the staff should or could have suggested he come back later for a private session.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19843
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Nikolas

Originally Posted By: beethoven986

Yeah, your mistake in all three instances, presumably, was not calling ahead to schedule an appointment. That's kind of rule #1 for best service when dealing with piano stores, because they're different than Wal-Mart, ya know.

I'm honestly not buying that (not because it's not true, or because you said it or anything)! If this is the case then I have to agree that such businesses should close down...

It's absurd to think that a serious customer needs to notify over the phone/email in order to be taken seriously... Come on... He's ready to put down 20,000$ and he's trying out grand pianos. Isn't that enough to be treated at least with some dignity?

I agree completely based on numerous visits to dealers in NYC. I have never called ahead to make an appointment and have regularly visited most of the stores on Piano Row. Nor have the huge majority of customers who visited the store while I was there called ahead.

Even when I've told them I am NOT presently interested in buying a piano having bought one a few years ago, they treat me better than that. They understand that I may be interested in the future or I may tell another person about my experience at the store or about my impression of some piano. I do stop playing if another customer comes in, but that's because I'm not planning on buying a piano in the near future. If I was a serious customer and they asked me to stop playing without trying to do some balancing act to satisfy both customers I would be annoyed.

Even if someone calls ahead I think it's unreasonable and stupid if a dealer gives them endless time to try out pianos while making other customers sit by idly. And I think the huge majority of piano shoppers simply wouldn't consider calling ahead so it's wrong to say this is the first rule to get good service.

OTOH I do think the OP made the mistake of starting to play again after 15 minutes apparently without indicating to the salesperson that he'd like to to do so and was getting impatient. This would have given the salesperson the opportunity to try and do some kind of balancing act to keep both parties happy.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19843
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen

I have been in this scenario hundreds of times. For most of my career our store also sold guitars, amps, band and orchestral instruments, all in one very large open space compounding the problem. Over years I developed "techniques" to handle these situations to everyone's satisfaction, but is is a learned skill.

Exactly. I think it's possible to ask one customer to stop as long as it's done the right way and the customer thinks they are being treated fairly and politely.

frog97
Full Member
Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 54
Loc: West side of the Globe

I have a little more empathy for Killer than I do for Beethoven, I have been looking at piano stores from time to time in my search, and I have had a variety of experiences from so-called sales-people, from straight out-lies, too very snarky remarks. I mentioned this forum to one sales person and he just frowned, and then I mentioned something Del and said in a post and he told me Del did not know what he was talking about. (I would think they would like an informed customer?)Now I may not know that much about pianos, but I am very well read and I read all I can about a subject before diving into it.Like many others here, research and study on the vast subject of pianos will yield some varying opinions but I think it is the snarky attitude that really gets to the buyers. Granted, most of us are not that familiar with the idiocracies of piano sales-persons, and that is a larger object to get over than that of the piano it-self. My belief is that most piano sales-persons, really don’t want to have a conversation, they just want you to sign on the dotted line, end of story.In addition I had one sales person tell me how great is house and pool were and he did not really want to talk about the pianos at all, He just asked if I could afford and piano at this price range. But, from my research I knew it was marked-up $1000 over MSRP. He was a real…(you can fill in the blank).Beethoven, knowing that it is a good idea to call to make an appointment before sounds great, and I will take that advise in the future, But, with that said, I have contacted three different piano stores before driving out, at some distance to see if they had a model I would like to see, and they did not respond by phone or email. (Maybe mfg websites could be a little better for the window shopper as well, Kawai site is good with the videos, others should do the same)People want information, granted you don’t have to answer all the questions or objections they might have but, helping them to know where to get the information would be helpful, also letting them try out the pianos to their hearts content before they put down $$$$ is a must

frog97
Full Member
Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 54
Loc: West side of the Globe

What I would like to hear Is something like this, Oh, you like to read Pw blogs, tell me what have you learned?Oh, you read Piano buyer, anything stick out in in mind that you did or did not like?Our completion makes really nice pianos, so our brands have to make really nice pianos also or we would be out of business. (less bashing the others, it doesn’t work)

This happened in one store, I was looking at a used Boston, (now I wish I had bought it)I was playing the Boston, I did not know anything at all about it, I knew I liked it.

The Sales-person tells me that they had refinished the Boston, because they did not like the cheap Steinway finish it came with, I know they did not re-finish the piano, why he would say this I don’t know, Anyway, if he had said something like, Boston is made in the same factory as the Kawais’ we carry and are also a very fine piano, it would be sitting in my house today.

Also, I think the shopping experience for a digital Piano is very different from the acoustic piano market.Thanks “Digital Dave” for the great treatment you gave to me and my family.

Yeah, your mistake in all three instances, presumably, was not calling ahead to schedule an appointment. That's kind of rule #1 for best service when dealing with piano stores, because they're different than Wal-Mart, ya know.

I'm honestly not buying that (not because it's not true, or because you said it or anything)! If this is the case then I have to agree that such businesses should close down...

It's absurd to think that a serious customer needs to notify over the phone/email in order to be taken seriously... Come on... He's ready to put down 20,000$ and he's trying out grand pianos. Isn't that enough to be treated at least with some dignity?

I agree completely based on numerous visits to dealers in NYC. I have never called ahead to make an appointment and have regularly visited most of the stores on Piano Row. Nor have the huge majority of customers who visited the store while I was there called ahead.

Even when I've told them I am NOT presently interested in buying a piano having bought one a few years ago, they treat me better than that. They understand that I may be interested in the future or I may tell another person about my experience at the store or about my impression of some piano. I do stop playing if another customer comes in, but that's because I'm not planning on buying a piano in the near future. If I was a serious customer and they asked me to stop playing without trying to do some balancing act to satisfy both customers I would be annoyed.

Even if someone calls ahead I think it's unreasonable and stupid if a dealer gives them endless time to try out pianos while making other customers sit by idly. And I think the huge majority of piano shoppers simply wouldn't consider calling ahead so it's wrong to say this is the first rule to get good service.

OTOH I do think the OP made the mistake of starting to play again after 15 minutes apparently without indicating to the salesperson that he'd like to to do so and was getting impatient. This would have given the salesperson the opportunity to try and do some kind of balancing act to keep both parties happy.

Keep in mind that the quality and professionality of the sales staff on piano row is atypical. You couldn't support that degree of professionalism in a low volume or mid-volume store.

I admit that we have a fairly unusual situation, but our showroom is split up into several rather large spaces, a total of 7 rooms in two buildings, and there are times that we have three or four people playing without disturbing each other.

Although there is always the time when two customers wish to spend time on pianos right next to each other. in this situation judicious management of our most precious resource is needed - I am referring to time, of course.

I have never had an unreasonable customer that did not understand the concept of 'taking turns' though. Most folks are very reasonable when they see that someone else also needs a little playing time. in fact, I have seen two customers compare notes and help to reassure each other about their purchases.

This becomes a nastier situation when, instead of wanting to play two pianos standing side by side, the two customers want to play the same piano.

I was eating in a restaurant, where a would-be customer from off the street was told, "I'm sorry, sir, you'll have to leave; you're taking people's appetites away."

Your way of writing is presentable, and if you are that way in person, I would imagine a store would be glad to show to you and sell to you. Being dismissed from one store is fairly well believable; we have had letters about such in the past. Maybe they were in a bad mood, or were snarky by nature. It's not good form, but it can happen. Being dismissed from a second store is more remarkable--- perhaps you were in a bad mood by that time.

But at last, you found civil treatment at the third store. I am relieved, for the honor of the piano stores of Portland... even though, by this time, your story is starting to sound like a remake of "Goldilocks and the Three Bears."

It seems like there must be something left out of the tale.

I hope you found an acceptable piano behind Door Number Three (your story also reminds me of a television game show--- what was it called, "Let's Make a Deal?" Or, "Let's Don't Make One." Of course, the contestants had to guess what was behind the door or curtain, so you have the advantage.)

I would think, that if you were so displeased with the floor staff at the first two stores, you might get better satisfaction by calling their managers than by writing to PianoWorld... since we really can do nothing for you.

As for the title of your letter, "Are piano stores trying to go out of business?" I would have to reply, "No." Since only you know the full particulars of what occurred, maybe if you think this answer over it will come clear in your mind.

Anyway, I hope you are able to go home with both a piano and a store that you love. If it were me, I'd remember Valentina and forget the stores. Even Goldilocks could not ask for a happier ending. (What did happen to her, anyway--- didn't the bears eat her?)

If two customers want to play the same piano, that should be the ideal situation for them each to learn how the piano will sound to others.

On a couple of occasions, I used this to my advantage - if the other pianist was accomplished. In one case, a much better pianist was playing a piano near one I was looking at, so I asked if he would mind playing "my" piano - which he agreed to - it was much nicer than the piano he was considering for himself. But I was then able to walk around listening to the piano as an "audience of one" from different angles.

Hey Clef, Doesn't Valentina has gold locks? So Killer visits Portland to see a concert by the esteemed golden locked Valentina Lisitsa and has a Goldilocks experience of his own (in addition to the concert)! How ironic. Thank you for pointing that out.

When I have dealt with piano stores I have, in general, not called ahead, but I do try to be sensitive to their needs. On a number of occasions I've been asked to schedule a time the next day (I'm talking about you Ori), which was perfectly okay with me. I agree with the poster who suggested the problem was that he didn't approach the sales staff at store #1 and mention that he was serious and wished to start playing again. But the real test of whether all this angst was worth it would be if he purchased a piano at store #3. Of course if he didn't it might be because it wasn't "the one" but we all like happy endings so please let us know if this experience had a positive outcome. Oh and sorry that the forum didn't unanimously agree with you.