Quick range session this morning with the ARs and some Nightforce NX8 love.

I mounted the NX8 in a Geissele 0-MOA mount on my BCM ELW Midlength BFH 16" AR. Previously it had a Vortex PST Gen 2 1-6x24, which I really had zero complaints about other than not being crazy bright (but still daylight bright) and on the heavier side (21.5 oz).

Sometimes you just get lucky when it comes to zeroing - from the first shot, it was only printing about 1" lower than I wanted at 25 yds, with windage dead on. Corrected to the proper drop for 100yd zero at 25yds, then confirmed 100 yard zero on fresh painted steel at distance. Probably 5 shots to have it dead on at 100, then 5 more to confirm it. Set the zerostop (easy) and done.

After getting zeroed, I played with the optic on the 100yd steel and some leftover clays on the 125 yard berm, using various power settings, usually 8x, 4-5x, and 1x. It's my first FFP scope but it's not rocket science and you get used to the reticle changing apparent size quickly. I put 30rds through it doing this with zero surprises or issues.

Then I moved to some 10-25 yard drills, mostly doubles and failure drills from low ready to see how getting the sight picture was while standing and moving. While the 'eyebox' is a bit tighter than the Vortex PST G2 and Razor scopes at 1x, it's not at all hard to get behind and keep the scope aligned for "RDS-like" use at 1x. 1x is clear and true, the dot is crazy bright on 10 and I only needed to keep it on 5-6 today with it being overcast this morning.

Overall I put 100rds through the rifle / NX combo with zero complaints and I am REALLY happy with it. Looking forward to more range time with it! Glass is NXS level glass, as are the turrets and general construction / feel of the optic. Power level is smooth and easy, especially with the included Power Throw Lever (PTL). I have some left over Butler Creek caps on it as the rubber NF ones are a joke, but I have Aadland caps on order for it. No, it's not as stupid easy to get behind like a Vortex, where you can just put it in front of your face and bang you have a sight picture, but it's not hard like some people complain about. And once you unlearn sloppy habits from running a Vortex, it's easy to get behind and you don't feel like you are looking through a tube, like with some cheaper 1x optics.

Put my NX8 through some more paces today. Only change since last time was some scope caps.

Shot 140rds of M193 at 12, 25, and 125 yds. Did the first 60 from low ready to doubles and triples on the 12 yd to ensure I was comfortable with acquiring the dot / reticle quickly, then did another 30rds on the 25 yds target. No issues but did play with the diopter a bit, as I had adjusted it at home when putting on the scope caps, so I was just searching a bit for 'perfect', which I got.

Took a break for 20 rds while getting a solid 100 yards zero with the offset Magpul MBUS. I had shot them out to 25yds before, but had POI a bit too high for the 100 yd zero. Nailed that down and surprisingly was hitting the 5" plates at 125 with no real problem from the bench with the rifle rotated.

The final 30rds was spent on steel at 125, some at 1x, but mostly on higher magnification from 4-8X. About half sitting at the bench but the rest standing with a sling.

I love the Aadland scope caps for their durability but the rear cap really adds to the 'stuff' you see when shooting at 1x, so I removed it for now (similar to how my PST Gen2 is setup, front cap only).

Cool. I just bit the bullet and got a Viper PSTGen II 2-10 on the way. It will be my first FFP optic. (I technically have a Burris 1.5-8 but I wont use it to try and sell BNIB.)It is pretty nice if you like Horseshoe Reticles, but I can't get used to it.

I'm anxious to try out the reticle. I hope to be able to use it at mid magnification to enhance FOV.

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Yeah, I'm happy with my PST Gen 2 1-6x24 for a <$600 optic. In fact I prefer it to the Razor (gasp, I know). I guess after having the PST first, I was just underwhelmed by the Razor -E for what it cost and did. I know it's a great scope, just didn't do it for me.

I move the PST 1-6 to the SCAR 17 since Vortex says it'll do fine. I guess I'll find out.

Originally posted by smithnsig:At what magnification can you start to use the subtending?

I just bit the bullet and got a Viper PSTGen II 2-10 on the way. It will be my first FFP optic.

I'm anxious to try out the reticle. I hope to be able to use it at mid magnification to enhance FOV.

With FFP reticle, IMO 2 MOA subtensions start be become useful at magnification of 4-5x. Which means 1 MOA subtensions become useful around 8-10x.

Your Viper's reticle has subtentions in 2 MOA increments, so they maybe useful for you at roughly mid-power. I have this same scope on an AR-15 and have around 1,000 rounds down the tube so far. I feel I'm just getting use to the optic, as I'm much more familiar with Nightforce's MOA reticles.

The Viper's holdover subtentions are a little wider than I like, but they are useful. FWIW with my 16" AR and 69 grain SMK loads and a 100 yard zero, a 2 MOA holdover gets me to about 220 yards. The 4 MOA holdover is a little under 300 yards. The 8 MOA holder is a little over 400 yards. 10mph cross winds at such distances will require wind holds generally in the 2-4 MOA ballpark, which is doable with the scope's reticle.

I have a NF 2.5-10x on a similar 16" upper -- I am evaluating which one will be used in two-rifle competitions, but have not yet made the decision. The Vortex has a little brighter colors than the NF, as non-ATACR NF glass tends to appear stronger in the blue/green end of the spectrum. Although the NF is SFP, I think is has the cleaner reticle. The resolution is a little better on the NF than the Vortex.

My Viper has a 20 MOA canted mount, and thus I can use much of the scope's 90 MOA of elevation. It is mounted to an upper that had a recent barrel change, thus I was breaking in the new barrel at the same time as the new scope. All did not go well. I couldn't hold a consistent zero. After swapping scopes to evaluate the Viper's capabilities, I suspected an issue with barrel's gas block touching the hand guard as barrel temp changed. My 'smith corrected the barrel/gas block/rail issues, then it was back to evaluating the Viper scope.

I did a number of tall target tests, to determine if the Viper tracked well. The elevation turret tracked nicely all the way to 65 MOA in elevation, under repeated tests. Roughly 65 MOA is where I topped out, bumping the elevator to the top of the available dialing. Unfortunately, when I returned to the set zero it was always off by 1-3 MOA, and therefore I reset zero again. This cycle repeated 3 or 4 times before I realized the Viper should never have its elevation dialed to maximum. Somewhere in its design, the scope just doesn't tolerate this like my Nightforce scopes do.

Ultimately this is no big deal -- just a learning experience for me with a different brand of scope. And a less expensive scope, too. If I limit my dialing to 2 revs of the elevation turret, I can still dial 50 MOA with the Viper and not cause a return-to-zero issue. 50 MOA in theory gets me to about 1050 yards, which is well beyond the realistic use of this upper. 25 MOA -- one rev -- gets me to about 750 yards, which is still beyond the best accuracy level of this upper. I've shot this upper to 600-650 yards with the Viper, and am pleased with its performance with FGMM 69 in repeatability, accuracy, windage, and elevation.

Originally posted by smithnsig:At what magnification can you start to use the subtending?

I just bit the bullet and got a Viper PSTGen II 2-10 on the way. It will be my first FFP optic.

I'm anxious to try out the reticle. I hope to be able to use it at mid magnification to enhance FOV.

With FFP reticle, IMO 2 MOA subtensions start be become useful at magnification of 4-5x. Which means 1 MOA subtensions become useful around 8-10x.

Your Viper's reticle has subtentions in 2 MOA increments, so they maybe useful for you at roughly mid-power. I have this same scope on an AR-15 and have around 1,000 rounds down the tube so far. I feel I'm just getting use to the optic, as I'm much more familiar with Nightforce's MOA reticles.

The Viper's holdover subtentions are a little wider than I like, but they are useful. FWIW with my 16" AR and 69 grain SMK loads and a 100 yard zero, a 2 MOA holdover gets me to about 220 yards. The 4 MOA holdover is a little under 300 yards. The 8 MOA holder is a little over 400 yards. 10mph cross winds at such distances will require wind holds generally in the 2-4 MOA ballpark, which is doable with the scope's reticle.

I have a NF 2.5-10x on a similar 16" upper -- I am evaluating which one will be used in two-rifle competitions, but have not yet made the decision. The Vortex has a little brighter colors than the NF, as non-ATACR NF glass tends to appear stronger in the blue/green end of the spectrum. Although the NF is SFP, I think is has the cleaner reticle. The resolution is a little better on the NF than the Vortex.

My Viper has a 20 MOA canted mount, and thus I can use much of the scope's 90 MOA of elevation. It is mounted to an upper that had a recent barrel change, thus I was breaking in the new barrel at the same time as the new scope. All did not go well. I couldn't hold a consistent zero. After swapping scopes to evaluate the Viper's capabilities, I suspected an issue with barrel's gas block touching the hand guard as barrel temp changed. My 'smith corrected the barrel/gas block/rail issues, then it was back to evaluating the Viper scope.

I did a number of tall target tests, to determine if the Viper tracked well. The elevation turret tracked nicely all the way to 65 MOA in elevation, under repeated tests. Roughly 65 MOA is where I topped out, bumping the elevator to the top of the available dialing. Unfortunately, when I returned to the set zero it was always off by 1-3 MOA, and therefore I reset zero again. This cycle repeated 3 or 4 times before I realized the Viper should never have its elevation dialed to maximum. Somewhere in its design, the scope just doesn't tolerate this like my Nightforce scopes do.

Ultimately this is no big deal -- just a learning experience for me with a different brand of scope. And a less expensive scope, too. If I limit my dialing to 2 revs of the elevation turret, I can still dial 50 MOA with the Viper and not cause a return-to-zero issue. 50 MOA in theory gets me to about 1050 yards, which is well beyond the realistic use of this upper. 25 MOA -- one rev -- gets me to about 750 yards, which is still beyond the best accuracy level of this upper. I've shot this upper to 600-650 yards with the Viper, and am pleased with its performance with FGMM 69 in repeatability, accuracy, windage, and elevation.

I think you'll be fine with the 2-10x Viper.

I got the MRAD reticle and I'll be lucky if I get to shoot 600 yards. I looked through it (not on a rifle) and the hashes look workable visible at 4x.

Really good eyebox.

-----------------------------------------------------------TCB all the time...

Originally posted by smithnsig:I got the MRAD reticle and I'll be lucky if I get to shoot 600 yards. I looked through it (not on a rifle) and the hashes look workable visible at 4x.

Due to the different scale of mils, then yes, the MRAD's 1 mil subtentions are likely OK for you at 4x. The real test will be shooting it, on different size/shape/color targets at the various magnification levels.

Do you test using live fire or just tracking optically on a calibrated target?

“Without its tough spearmen, Hellenic culture would have had nothing to give the world. It would not have lasted long enough. When Greek culture became so sophisticated that its common men would no longer fight to the death, as at Thermopylae, but became devious and clever, a horde of Roman farm boys overran them.”— T. R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War

Do you test using live fire or just tracking optically on a calibrated target?

Live fire at 100 yards -- pieces cardboard taped together to form 6' tall targets, supported with wood strips. I zeroed near the bottom of the carboard on 3/4" paster dots, shot groups after increasing elevations, dialed up in 10 MOA increments -- always aiming at the pasters at the bottom of the cardboard. I measured the POIs from zero with a tape measure, then converted the inch-measured elevations to MOA.

This method works quite well for me. The scope tracked well enough that I could determine when I yanked shots up or down, due to poor shooting position or technique.

“Without its tough spearmen, Hellenic culture would have had nothing to give the world. It would not have lasted long enough. When Greek culture became so sophisticated that its common men would no longer fight to the death, as at Thermopylae, but became devious and clever, a horde of Roman farm boys overran them.”— T. R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War

Originally posted by armored:How do you see the Burris XTRII 1-8x24 in comparison to the scopes mentioned. For a scar 17 install.

It would work. It just depends on what you want from the optic and the rifle.

The XTR2 is not in the league of the NX8, and definitely not in the league of the ATCR 1-8. IMO it is comparable to the Vortex PST2 line. I don't own a Burris optic, but have played with them at Burris-sponsored rifle matches. Most of my interaction with Burris was fondling them on demo tables, but I have shot a few rifles with various XTR2 models.

XTR2 glass is pretty bright, with more color pop than NF NXS. Turrets have a decent feel, with pretty positive clicks -- but not as positive as NF. The guys who have really put XTR2 scopes through their paces state that XTR2 has some chromatic aberration ("CA"). I suspect this is more with the higher-magnification scopes -- I'm uncertain how much it would affect a 1-8x scope's performance. Early reports on the new XTR3 line is that the CA issues have been corrected, however the XTR3 line currently does not include LPV models.

The XTR2's reticles have built-in ballistic drop compensation. Depending upon how you use the rifle, the reticles may -- or may not -- be the best for you. I don't care much for ballistic reticles, as I have more exacting needs with various ammo and target distances in competition.

I recommend playing with various optics options, them making your decision based on live interaction with various models. Even better, see if you can get behind a rifle with the various models.

Originally posted by armored:How do you see the Burris XTRII 1-8x24 in comparison to the scopes mentioned.For a scar 17 install.

I have the 1.5-8 and would like it if it didn’t have the horse shoe reticle. A lot of people love it but I am used to a crosshair type reticle. The FOV was bigger at 8x than the 1-8. I looked through them both side by side.

I’m debating what to do with it. It kinda overlaps with the Viper PST II 2-10 I just picked up.

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How do the Swarovski scopes hold up the Scar?The bulk of my shooting will be at the range standing or sitting. As much as I see myself running around shooting like a Seal that's NOT the reality for me.The range I belong to has a max. 600 meter.I'm concerned that a 1-8 scope could work out to 600 meters but a better choice for me might be a bit more magnification.I see a Swaro 2-12 and a 1.7-10 Z-6 series, with a illuminated reticle.I don't see a steady diet of 600 meter Scar shooting but, it would be nice to know that I could still hit with accuracy at that distance.

I think vortex really needs a Gen ii Razor 2-12 in the lineup. Perfect On a Scar or AR10. A casual correspondence with a Vortex rep I have talked to in the past indicated that something along those lines was in the works but not in the near future.

-----------------------------------------------------------TCB all the time...