^Oh, and for those of you claim the OO cannot hold the Holy Fire, at about 2 minutes and 1 second of the the video, you can see a Coptic Monk in the background holding a lighted torch. I just wanted to put that out there...

I don't think anyone has ever said OO aren't allowed to hold it. The Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem is always the first to receive the fire from the EO Patriarch.

Why do the OO fight with each other in the Holy land? Our Churches get along very well abroad and in our native countries.

my dear Severian, its a complex story better left to those in the immediate vicinity to deal with. it breaks my heart as well, but that's just the way it is. bringing it up here is not going to be productive if you know what i mean, its politics and its ugly, a testament of human weakness.

i know its no comfort to you or to me, but its better not to dwell upon it in an emotional manner, rather better to pray about it, that we may not scandalize the young in the faith as well as those who are outside who expect better from Christians as they should.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 09:16:59 PM by Hiwot »

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

i know its no comfort to you or to me, but its better not to dwell upon it in an emotional manner, rather better to pray about it, that we may not scandalize the young in the faith as well as those who are outside who expect better from Christians as they should.

After months of everyone at oc.net following this advice in general, new posts = 3.

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If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Why do the OO fight with each other in the Holy land? Our Churches get along very well abroad and in our native countries.

my dear Severian, its a complex story better left to those in the immediate vicinity to deal with. it breaks my heart as well, but that's just the way it is. bringing it up here is not going to be productive if you know what i mean, its politics and its ugly, a testament of human weakness.

i know its no comfort to you or to me, but its better not to dwell upon it in an emotional manner, rather better to pray about it, that we may not scandalize the young in the faith as well as those who are outside who expect better from Christians as they should.

You are right. As a Copt who has nothing but respect for his Sister Orthodox Churches, it pains me to hear of this division and conflict among the Churches, especially in the Holiest city on Earth. We are brothers and sisters and have been since the earliest centuries of Christianity. We share the same faith, are part of the same Church, venerate the same Saints and Holy Fathers, commune from the same chalice, worship the same Lord and yet we fight to the point where we need non-believers to keep us under control. Lord have mercy!

While I do not want to dwell on this too much, I am wondering... The faithful from all sides can still commune in each others Churches, correct?

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 09:58:19 PM by Severian »

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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Why do the OO fight with each other in the Holy land? Our Churches get along very well abroad and in our native countries.

my dear Severian, its a complex story better left to those in the immediate vicinity to deal with. it breaks my heart as well, but that's just the way it is. bringing it up here is not going to be productive if you know what i mean, its politics and its ugly, a testament of human weakness.

i know its no comfort to you or to me, but its better not to dwell upon it in an emotional manner, rather better to pray about it, that we may not scandalize the young in the faith as well as those who are outside who expect better from Christians as they should.

You are right. As a Copt who has nothing but respect for his Sister Orthodox Churches, it pains me to hear of this division and conflict among the Churches, especially in the Holiest city on Earth. We are brothers and sisters and have been since the earliest centuries of Christianity. We share the same faith, are part of the same Church, venerate the same Saints and Holy Fathers, commune from the same chalice, worship the same Lord and yet we fight to the point where we need non-believers to keep us under control. Lord have mercy!

While I do not want to dwell on this too much, I am wondering... The faithful from all sides can still commune in each others Churches, correct?

i think the question should be,as a result of all this, do they? while i do not know the day to day events of those places, from what little I know of, i would wager to say they each go to their own jurisdictional churches to commune, but I would be very happy to be mistaken.

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

I wasn't sure whether to put this video here or the private fora, so mods feel free to move this as you see fit.

All of the behavior described in this video is unacceptable, but the violent fights between the OO AMONGST THEMSELVES is especially disgusting. I cannot even begin to describe my frustration...

Just a note, some of the subtitles (at least the Arabic ones) paraphrase what the people are saying, rather than giving a verbatim translation.

Not directly relevant, but do rank and file "orential orthodox" (such a stupid descriptor!) understand each other to be part of the one church?

While I often mock the Greeks for thinking they are the only Orthodox Christians in this world, they do usually understand that the Russians and Serbs are part of the Orthodox Church.

I criticize Copts for the thinking the same way...

Most laypersons do know that we are one Church, though we do not interact with each other nearly enough and we act like our fellow Orthodox brethren do not exist. And many of them will even criticize our sister jurisdictions. I once heard an ignorant Coptic fellow from a local parish say "I have an Indian Orthodox friend, and he said that in their Liturgy they do not bow before the Eucharist. This is wrong because that means they must not truly believe it is the body and blood if they do not bow before it." I cringed at this ignorant and triumphalist statement. You see, because we have been so historically separated from each other, we have developed a diversity in our local practices and traditions. And many ignorant youth (especially from Copts, from what I can tell) do not understand the difference between local cultural tradition and Orthodox Holy Tradition, the latter being shared by all Orthodox faithful. Hopefully, in a few generations this sinful ethnocentrism and nationalism within our Churches will die out and we shall come to grow together as one body of Orthodox believers, as it was meant to be. This ethnocentrism OOxy has been struggling with is no different than the Phariseeism that Christ condemned.

I did not know we had sister Churches until I was around 10-12 years old, and even then, I was taught that the Greeks and Russians were as much our sister Churches as Syrians and Armenians! Shows what we know!

« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 01:31:30 AM by Severian »

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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Why do the OO fight with each other in the Holy land? Our Churches get along very well abroad and in our native countries.

my dear Severian, its a complex story better left to those in the immediate vicinity to deal with. it breaks my heart as well, but that's just the way it is. bringing it up here is not going to be productive if you know what i mean, its politics and its ugly, a testament of human weakness.

i know its no comfort to you or to me, but its better not to dwell upon it in an emotional manner, rather better to pray about it, that we may not scandalize the young in the faith as well as those who are outside who expect better from Christians as they should.

You are right. As a Copt who has nothing but respect for his Sister Orthodox Churches, it pains me to hear of this division and conflict among the Churches, especially in the Holiest city on Earth. We are brothers and sisters and have been since the earliest centuries of Christianity. We share the same faith, are part of the same Church, venerate the same Saints and Holy Fathers, commune from the same chalice, worship the same Lord and yet we fight to the point where we need non-believers to keep us under control. Lord have mercy!

While I do not want to dwell on this too much, I am wondering... The faithful from all sides can still commune in each others Churches, correct?

i think the question should be,as a result of all this, do they? while i do not know the day to day events of those places, from what little I know of, i would wager to say they each go to their own jurisdictional churches to commune, but I would be very happy to be mistaken.

The faithful probably do just commune within themselves... But what about the Bishops and Clergy? Do they ever concelebrate or has this situation divided them?

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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting and pitiful. Watching things like this makes me wish I could be glad that I am not of any traditional "Orthodox" ethnicity, but I can't really be glad, as this taints the name of the faith. Orthodoxy? Why would you want to be with those people who fight amongst each other in a place you supposedly all go to worship God? (I don't know, hypothetical non-Orthodox person. I don't know.)

Really it reminds me of a book I once read about the betrayal of the Syriac Christians in Iraq by the world powers. I can't remember the title, but I remember there was one part where some kind of ambassador or special envoy charged with getting aid to the Assyrians in North Iraq was interviewed about why it is so hard to work in that area. When it is reported to be much safer to be than other places like Baghdad or Karbala, why is there still so much trouble for the native Christians? The official said something like: "We would have loved to help the Assyrians, but they're too divided. It makes securing and distributing aid very difficult. Nobody agrees on who their leader is, and they won't share amongst themselves, so what can we do?"

It really makes me wonder if people care about Christ at all. There are so few Christians in the Holy Land anymore, so to see this...it is really scandalous in its stupidity and pettiness. I wonder if the warring parties in the video really look forward to the return of Christ our God. I'm not so sure I'd want to be giving such lame defenses for sinning in front of the Just Judge. I mean...this idiocy wouldn't even fly in front of Judge Wapner...

On a bit of a lighter note, one of the Ethiopian Monks wore a raised hat similar to that of a Greek Priest and he was clean-shaven. Is this practice exclusive only to the Ethiopian Orthodox in the Holy land?

Edit: Thank you again, Orthodox11

« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 12:15:48 PM by Severian »

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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

"I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!" -Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

On a bit of a lighter note, one of the Ethiopian Monks wore a raised hat similar to that of a Greek Priest and he was clean-shaven. Is this practice exclusive only to the Ethiopian Orthodox in the Holy land?

It's common throughout the Ethiopian church, but is referred to as the "Jerusalem style", and so is obviously a result of contact between Greek and Ethiopian clergy in the Holy Land.