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If Yuna is just one of five representatives, then where is the elected assembly and the other 4 representatives when he make that stupid decision like saying Djibril is not in ORB through national broadcast? Did he sneak on them? If so, how can he prepared and executed national (or international) broadcast? If those other men-in-power actually approved of what he has done (which contrary to the high-ranking military officers), then ORBís government is truly messed-up or just poorly written. They canít even control a single representative from blabbering nonsense to the international world while (he said that he was) representing ORB (the whole country).

Yup, That is also the point of my first post a page ago, that ORB is so messed-up the government allowed or gave a guy such as Yuna opportunities to make the most important decisions while representing the whole country which also the writer's fault since he/she failed to give us a stable, just, and orderly government that represent the long prosperity and advancement in ORB.

Yup, That is also the point of my first post a page ago, that ORB is so messed-up the government allowed or gave a guy such as Yuna opportunities to make the most important decisions while representing the whole country which also the writer's fault since he/she failed to give us a stable government that represent the long prosperity and advancement in ORB.

Except the prosperity and advancement of Orb happened due to the policies of Cagalli's dad. It has nothing to do with Yuna. And Orb's government is, for the most part, stable.

Except the prosperity and advancement of Orb happened due to the policies of Cagalli's dad. It has nothing to do with Yuna. And Orb's government is, for the most part, stable.

I’m mainly talking about ORB in Destiny here. Since most of ORB is destroyed during the second half of SEED, the advancement that I’m talking about would be the rebuilding of the country from the ashes after SEED. In this case, not only they succeed in re-building ORB, they also made some progress in technology (the existence of Murasames is one evidence). All of that are supposedly happen during Cagalli’s rule and those noble families. Yet, in the show, we are shown that she was so indecisive those representatives can just bypass her authority and make their own decision whenever they feel the need to. One obvious example of that would be the ORB’s alliance with the EA. What kind of stable government is that? If that’s how things work since the rebuilding period of ORB, then Cagalli’s kidnapping wouldn’t make such a dent in ORB’s government would it? Yet, ORB is deteriorating so fast after Cagalli left (the military are often in clash with the government, ORB protecting the mother of all terrorrist, Yuna in charge, etc). It’s just not a very good scenario, really.

Okay, I’m not gonna go deeper into this matter since the anime plot only touched that far. Like I said before, the script is flawed when it deals with governmental issues and details.

I’m mainly talking about ORB in Destiny here. Since most of ORB is destroyed during the second half of SEED, the advancement that I’m talking about would be the rebuilding of the country from the ashes after SEED.

Most of Orb was not destroyed in SEED. At most, the brunt of the damage was on one island where the mass driver was located.

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In this case, not only they succeed in re-building ORB, they also made some progress in technology (the existence of Murasames is one evidence). All of that are supposedly happen during Cagalli’s rule and those noble families. Yet, in the show, we are shown that she was so indecisive those representatives can just bypass her authority and make their own decision whenever they feel the need to.

Obviously Orb had a good enough infrastructure in place. And besides, Cagalli's indecisiveness is only related to Orb's involvement with the AF during Destiny, not over everything.

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One obvious example of that would be the ORB’s alliance with the EA. What kind of stable government is that?

The alliance with the EA has nothing to do with how stable Orb's government is.

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If that’s how things work since the rebuilding period of ORB, then Cagalli’s kidnapping wouldn’t make such a dent in ORB’s government would it?

It didn't.

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Yet, ORB is deteriorating so fast after Cagalli left (the military are often in clash with the government, ORB protecting the mother of all terrorrist, Yuna in charge, etc). It’s just not a very good scenario, really.

None of that is a sign of the deterioration of Orb. And the military is not in clash with the government.

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Okay, I’m not gonna go deeper into this matter since the anime plot only touched that far. Like I said before, the script is flawed when it deals with governmental issues and details.

The script may be flawed, but your analysis of Orb's government doesn't really provide a good example of that.

If Yuna is just one of five representatives, then where is the elected assembly and the other 4 representatives when he make that stupid decision like saying Djibril is not in ORB through national broadcast? If those other men-in-power actually approved of what he has done (which contrary to the high-ranking military officers), then ORBís government is truly messed-up or just poorly written. .

We can only *assume* since there has been a few minor scenes where the council are meeting around a table that these decisions as a body happens. Problem i find that with Yuna making the calls without council foreshadowing it can easily be interpreted that his is making the SOLE decisions. So ill just scratch it as bad writing.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

They canít even control a single representative from blabbering nonsense to the international world while (he said that he was) representing ORB (the whole country).

Just to clarify.. Being the representative isnt a position of absolute final decision making. His just the voice of the council. Now i could go for a far stretch as leader of the military without knowing the extent of his authority he may be able to make such decisions without the consultation of the rest of the council. But cannot confirm this due to no knowledge of what powers he has under his position of leadership in the military criteria.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yup, that ORB is so messed-up the government allowed or gave a guy such as Yuna opportunities to make the most important decisions while representing the whole country which also the writer's fault since he/she failed to give us a stable, just, and orderly government that represent the long prosperity and advancement in ORB.

I think the word stable could be replaced with structure. Without understanding orbs structure in thorough detail it is difficult to point out where restrictions of the council on individual basis has its limits of autonomy. Hence there is alot of confusion in regards to ORBS leadership that we have to point the dots together and make educated guesses that fits the scenario with the final product. But clearly ORB is stable in the sense that there is no political aggression between the council members which further is shown that the populace are content with the current leadership direction.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yet, in the show, we are shown that she was so indecisive those representatives can just bypass her authority and make their own decision whenever they feel the need to..

I personally think she was out-voted. Remember alot of izumi ideals supporters died with him in SEED so who knows what obstacles was left behind for cagalli to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

One obvious example of that would be the ORBís alliance with the EA. What kind of stable government is that?.

Just another example of cagalli either being outvoted or fell under pressure.

Just a question are you having problem with stability or ORB leadership breaking izumi ideals of neutrality?

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If thatís how things work since the rebuilding period of ORB, then Cagalliís kidnapping wouldnít make such a dent in ORBís government would it? .

Cagalli kidnapping wouldn't make a dent. But at the same time she should of returned to her post as an government official and fight in the political arena against the alliance treaty.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yet, ORB is deteriorating so fast after Cagalli left (the military are often in clash with the government, ORB protecting the mother of all terrorrist, Yuna in charge, etc). Itís just not a very good scenario, really..

ORB was fine for the most part of DESTINY. Orb had problems when EA was getting it ass kicked in all out defeat while zaft was closing in the envelope. But to be fair that situation would of happen to any nation or affiliation who is losing a war. People can easily make stupid decisions when under extreme pressure. But for the sake of plot and story they had to throw in these *obstacles* to paveway for cagallis eventual return as the rightful leader of orb

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Like I said before, the script is flawed when it deals with governmental issues and details.

Most of Orb was not destroyed in SEED. At most, the brunt of the damage was on one island where the mass driver was located.

You can be right, but I’m pretty sure that the Trio Gundams (being bastards that they were) destroy everything they can see in ORB after Cagalli left wit the shuttle. Still, tbh, I don’t know for sure the statistic of the damage, so yeah.

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Originally Posted by monster

Obviously Orb had a good enough infrastructure in place. And besides, Cagalli's indecisiveness is only related to Orb's involvement with the AF during Destiny, not over everything.

I agree. I never said that Cagalli is indecisive about everything. My focus is that the noble families can just bypass her authority. That’s the problem.

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Originally Posted by monster

The alliance with the EA has nothing to do with how stable Orb's government is.

It’s related to ORB’s 3 laws/ways of life. If the government is stable enough (for Cagalli at least), the alliance won’t happen and ORB will remain neutral even though there are pressure from the Atlantic Fed and the photos from Phantom Pain.

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Originally Posted by monster

It didn't.

It did. One example, if Cagalli was in ORB sooner, she could smack Yuna before (or just after) he made those ridiculous Djibril’s-not-here announcement, capture that mofo, fix things up with another announcement and relieve ORB from all those foolishness caused by Yuna.

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Originally Posted by monster

None of that is a sign of the deterioration of Orb. And the military is not in clash with the government.

Concerning the military, I’m not talking about a full-fledged rebellion here. When the admirals and other high-ranking military officers doubt and even show some anger to their government’s action, It’s ‘clash’ enough for me. That government X military ‘clash’ , plus a supreme ruler family protecting a terrorist, and letting a fool took (highest) command to me are also enough signs of deterioration. Still, I can understand if we have different views about that kinda ‘clash’ and deterioration in a government.

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Originally Posted by monster

The script may be flawed, but your analysis of Orb's government doesn't really provide a good example of that.

A strong, superpower and intelligent country that has complex government system easily led by a fool and a coward with no dignity is not enough example of a lacking script?

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Originally Posted by monster

And it seems to me like you've misunderstood a few details.

Yeah, I don’t exactly remember Destiny episode-by-episode, so you’re welcomed to mentioned the details that I forget and correct me if I make mistakes.

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Originally Posted by winter45

Just a question are you having problem with stability or ORB leadership breaking izumi ideals of neutrality?

In my understanding, the Three Laws is not just Uzumi's ideals, but it's originally ORB's ideals. So, if someone can tell me for sure whether the laws are solely Uzumi's, I'll drop the subject of stability. As stability for me is when a nation can live well (prosper and all) by applying/holding its own basic ideals. Just like America with its so-called Democracy
and my country with Pancasila.

Fair enough. My knowledge to your questions is rusty at best so unfortunately i cannot provide accurate answers.

Even tho your statement "I enjoy this argument, btw." originally was directed at monster before editing i would like to say: my replies weren't arguments at all but just to assist in removing the rough edges of your points.

I agree. I never said that Cagalli is indecisive about everything. My focus is that the noble families can just bypass her authority. That’s the problem.

But that's a problem with any form of government where power is not held by one person alone, like a monarchy. And even then, a weak king can be usurped or influenced and be a puppet.

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It’s related to ORB’s 3 laws/ways of life. If the government is stable enough (for Cagalli at least), the alliance won’t happen and ORB will remain neutral even though there are pressure from the Atlantic Fed and the photos from Phantom Pain.

A change in foreign policy still doesn't mean an unstable government. And it's only natural (no pun intended) for there to be people in the government with different ideas of how to run the government even with Orb's ideals.

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It did. One example, if Cagalli was in ORB sooner, she could smack Yuna before (or just after) he made those ridiculous Djibril’s-not-here announcement, capture that mofo, fix things up with another announcement and relieve ORB from all those foolishness caused by Yuna.

No, Cagalli's kidnapping did not make a dent because the alliance with the AF happened before the kidnapping.

As for whether the situation would be better had Cagalli returned sooner, that would depend on her state of mind. It's certain, however, that the Cagalli who was kidnapped would not do any better had Kira just returned her like that. She would've just gone on with the marriage with Yuna.

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Concerning the military, I’m not talking about a full-fledged rebellion here. When the admirals and other high-ranking military officers doubt and even show some anger to their government’s action, It’s ‘clash’ enough for me. That government X military ‘clash’ , plus a supreme ruler family protecting a terrorist, and letting a fool took (highest) command to me are also enough signs of deterioration. Still, I can understand if we have different views about that kinda ‘clash’ and deterioration in a government.

People will always have different opinions. As long as the military still obeys the government, it's still fine as far as I'm concerned.

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A strong, superpower and intelligent country that has complex government system easily led by a fool and a coward with no dignity is not enough example of a lacking script?

That "fool" is only one person out of a group of people within the government with the same political agenda.

And that's the problem with your argument. You're so fixated on Yuna that you ignore the whole Seiran family and other people within Orb that share the same viewpoint.

Look at the United States, where we have Republicans and Democrats and other political parties. Just because these parties may differ in certain agendas, it doesn't mean the government is deteriorating. And one "foolish" senator/president/representative is not going to undue the fact that the United States is quite a strong country overnight.

In other words, in an attempt to show that SEED and Destiny tend to simplify certain real-life issues (which they do, as this is a fictional story), you took it to the extreme by oversimplifying the situation with Orb's government. And then you "turn around" and find fault with its oversimplification when it's your analysis of it that is oversimplified.

Like I said, the script may not be perfect (but then, most aren't), but they're not as bad as you're making it out to be. And it's certainly not flawed simply because someone like Yuna has some power in a fictional country.

But that's a problem with any form of government where power is not held by one person alone, like a monarchy. And even then, a weak king can be usurped or influenced and be a puppet.

Even if Cagalli didnít have absolute power, does that makes it okay to just ignore her and makes decision on their own? Sheís supposed to be the leader of ORB, right?

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Originally Posted by monster

A change in foreign policy still doesn't mean an unstable government. And it's only natural (no pun intended) for there to be people in the government with different ideas of how to run the government even with Orb's ideals.

Just like what I said to winter45, until someone can tell me for sure, whether The 3 Laws are just Uzumiís own ideals or actually the foundation principles of the country, our view of ORBís Ďstableí government will never met since you apparently only view those laws as just someoneís ideals while I view it in a greater concept.

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Originally Posted by monster

No, Cagalli's kidnapping did not make a dent because the alliance with the AF happened before the kidnapping. As for whether the situation would be better had Cagalli returned sooner, that would depend on her state of mind. It's certain, however, that the Cagalli who was kidnapped would not do any better had Kira just returned her like that. She would've just gone on with the marriage with Yuna.

With Cagalli being there in ORB (married or not), after Durandallís broadcast revealing LOGOS as the true terrorist, Iím sure sheíll never let Djibril set his foot on ORB unlike the other coward noble families who can only smile and welcoming a public enemy number 1 to their home. That actually will add some amount of credibility to ORBís government even though theyíre still part of the alliance, just like Earth Alliance military and rebels who joined forces with ZAFT to battle LOGOS.

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Originally Posted by monster

People will always have different opinions. As long as the military still obeys the government, it's still fine as far as I'm concerned.

I'm cool with that.

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Originally Posted by monster

That "fool" is only one person out of a group of people within the government with the same political agenda.

And that's the problem with your argument. You're so fixated on Yuna that you ignore the whole Seiran family and other people within Orb that share the same viewpoint.

Look at the United States, where we have Republicans and Democrats and other political parties. Just because these parties may differ in certain agendas, it doesn't mean the government is deteriorating. And one "foolish" senator/president/representative is not going to undue the fact that the United States is quite a strong country overnight.

In other words, in an attempt to show that SEED and Destiny tend to simplify certain real-life issues (which they do, as this is a fictional story), you took it to the extreme by oversimplifying the situation with Orb's government. And then you "turn around" and find fault with its oversimplification when it's your analysis of it that is oversimplified.

Like I said, the script may not be perfect (but then, most aren't), but they're not as bad as you're making it out to be. And it's certainly not flawed simply because someone like Yuna has some power in a fictional country.

Iím not fixated to Yuna, I mention him a lot since his foolishness stood out. Yunaís foolishness is cartoonish and over the top. If you want to compare it to the RL situation, maybe itís like Bush saying that Guantanamo facility does not exist at all when he was still president, while evidences said otherwise. That would be total BS.

Iím not even trying to oversimplify things. Thatís what was shown in the show without including other media. First, we knew that ORB is powerful country with techno advancement. Rich & prosper, of course. Itís a (supposedly) neutral country (kinda like Switzerland). They say Cagalli is the leader of ORB, but we never given any clue of how much power/authority does she has compared to Prime Minister Unato Seiran and other members of noble families. Then, thereís Yuna who is the son of Unato and Cagalliís fiancee. What does that make him in the chain of command? Itís not very clear. And from there, our problem begins in defining ORB government and Cagalli's capacity as a leader. You apparently see it as a messed-up government due to the progress of the plot/story and that itís intentional and therefore OK. On the other hand, I view it as not a very good writing and a lacking script which function is to provide Cagalli, Shinn, Athrun, Kira, etc with internal conflict with the enemies. That makes ORB issues not a very good plot device. If we canít agree on this, letís just say we agree to disagree.

Even if Cagalli didn’t have absolute power, does that makes it okay to just ignore her and makes decision on their own? She’s supposed to be the leader of ORB, right?

Power is shared, remember? If Cagalli lacks enough support, then it will be tough to have it her way.

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Just like what I said to winter45, until someone can tell me for sure, whether The 3 Laws are just Uzumi’s own ideals or actually the foundation principles of the country, our view of ORB’s ‘stable’ government will never met since you apparently only view those laws as just someone’s ideals while I view it in a greater concept.

No, I view them as part of Orb's principle, but that doesn't mean things can't change or that everybody will follow that principle strictly.

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With Cagalli being there in ORB (married or not), after Durandall’s broadcast revealing LOGOS as the true terrorist, I’m sure she’ll never let Djibril set his foot on ORB unlike the other coward noble families who can only smile and welcoming a public enemy number 1 to their home. That actually will add some amount of credibility to ORB’s government even though they’re still part of the alliance, just like Earth Alliance military and rebels who joined forces with ZAFT to battle LOGOS.

That still won't matter if the Seirans hid Djibril from her.

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I’m not fixated to Yuna, I mention him a lot since his foolishness stood out. Yuna’s foolishness is cartoonish and over the top. If you want to compare it to the RL situation, maybe it’s like Bush saying that Guantanamo facility does not exist at all when he was still president, while evidences said otherwise. That would be total BS.

Well, a lot of people seem to think Bush's actions were BS anyway (justified or not), so it's not like it can't happen in real life.

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I’m not even trying to oversimplify things. That’s what was shown in the show without including other media. First, we knew that ORB is powerful country with techno advancement. Rich & prosper, of course. It’s a (supposedly) neutral country (kinda like Switzerland). They say Cagalli is the leader of ORB, but we never given any clue of how much power/authority does she has compared to Prime Minister Unato Seiran and other members of noble families. Then, there’s Yuna who is the son of Unato and Cagalli’s fiancee. What does that make him in the chain of command? It’s not very clear. And from there, our problem begins in defining ORB government and Cagalli's capacity as a leader.

Cagalli's capacity as a leader is the same as any leader within a shared government. The more support she has, the easier she will have to make certain policies.

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You apparently see it as a messed-up government due to the progress of the plot/story and that it’s intentional and therefore OK. On the other hand, I view it as not a very good writing and a lacking script which function is to provide Cagalli, Shinn, Athrun, Kira, etc with internal conflict with the enemies. That makes ORB issues not a very good plot device. If we can’t agree on this, let’s just say we agree to disagree.

Except all you have for saying the script is lacking is that someone like Yuna is in the government. And that's a pretty shallow reasoning.

It just seems to me that, for you, if a situation isn't the way you think it should be, it must be lacking or flawed.

Power is shared, remember? If Cagalli lacks enough support, then it will be tough to have it her way.

I didn’t argue about the lack of support for Cagalli, not at all. My gripe is the execution of ORB agreeing with the alliance behind Cagalli’s back without further consultation. Uzumi is Chief Representative, remember? And Cagalli has the same position in Destiny. So, her voice is very important for the ORB’s decision-making. Yet, Unato and the others just ignored her and play hey-lets-sign-this-contract-by-ourselves-and-that-Chief-can-go-to-her-room.

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Originally Posted by monster

No, I view them as part of Orb's principle, but that doesn't mean things can't change or that everybody will follow that principle strictly.

The 3 Laws of ORB is very much like Pancasila in my country in which it will never change as long as Indonesia still stand. It has 5 points instead of 3, and they contains our most basic principles in managing a country. You can say that it’s the foundation of the laws of Indonesia. I can’t compare this issue with other nations beside mine since I don’t know whether they have this kinda principle or not.

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Originally Posted by monster

That still won't matter if the Seirans hid Djibril from her.

Yeah, that will get ugly. By the time the evidence of Djibril-is-in-ORB came, at least Cagalli can immediately give order to capture Djibril and at the same time reveal the traitor family while explaining the situation properly to Durandal’s faction.

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Originally Posted by monster

Well, a lot of people seem to think Bush's actions were BS anyway (justified or not), so it's not like it can't happen in real life.

At least Bush was not an outward p^ssy.

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Originally Posted by monster

Cagalli's capacity as a leader is the same as any leader within a shared government. The more support she has, the easier she will have to make certain policies.

I won’t argue that the more support for Cagalli, the easier her work would be. What I need is the anime to deliver more details about it to make it absolutely clear, not you (no offense) or any other media. For example, in Batman Begins, it’s properly explained how Bruce Wayne was able to take back his company after its shares went public. Before that happens, his authority as just a usual shareholder is clearly defined. The script in Destiny didn’t do that to Cagalli.

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Originally Posted by monster

Except all you have for saying the script is lacking is that someone like Yuna is in the government. And that's a pretty shallow reasoning.

No, that’s not all I have. There are tons of them (but I’m kinda tired right now to mention them coz this is break-time from my work. I have to go back after this). I’m sure that other examples will come to you if you wade through the previous pages of this thread. I kept mentioning/focusing on Yuna-thingy coz that was in my first post and that’s apparently what made you disagree with me.

Yuna is a confusing character. We don’t know his rank and his actual authority. Yes, he was considered as Cagalli’s (Chief Representative) husband. Then again, you don’t see Michelle Obama leading a Navy fleet or ordering generals and admirals do you?

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Originally Posted by monster

It just seems to me that, for you, if a situation isn't the way you think it should be, it must be lacking or flawed.

No, there’s one example in Destiny where situation turned the way I like it but I still blame the script for poor execution. That would be Lacus & co survived the night ambush from a group of SWAT-like coordinators. I mean, how come they pull it off almost without a scratch when the only ones who have weapons at that time are Murrue & Andrew against a trained assassin coordinator group with auto-machine guns, silencers, bulletproof vests and night-scopes? How stupid can those assassins be? Like I said, I like the results that none of my fave charas are hurt but it’s still poorly written.

I didn’t argue about the lack of support for Cagalli, not at all. My gripe is the execution of ORB agreeing with the alliance behind Cagalli’s back without further consultation. Uzumi is Chief Representative, remember? And Cagalli has the same position in Destiny. So, her voice is very important for the ORB’s decision-making. Yet, Unato and the others just ignored her and play hey-lets-sign-this-contract-by-ourselves-and-that-Chief-can-go-to-her-room.

I think it's more like if the US Congress passes a law, the President can try to veto it, but the Congress can still overturn that veto.

So it goes back to whether there are enough people in the government who is against the alliance. Even Uzumi had his supporters. So, no, Cagalli alone can't oppose the alliance if the majority of the government decided on it.

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The 3 Laws of ORB is very much like Pancasila in my country in which it will never change as long as Indonesia still stand. It has 5 points instead of 3, and they contains our most basic principles in managing a country. You can say that it’s the foundation of the laws of Indonesia. I can’t compare this issue with other nations beside mine since I don’t know whether they have this kinda principle or not.

Well, I don't know if that's the case with Orb. But even with Indonesia, I don't think you can say that the government have always uphold the Pancasila.

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Yeah, that will get ugly. By the time the evidence of Djibril-is-in-ORB came, at least Cagalli can immediately give order to capture Djibril and at the same time reveal the traitor family while explaining the situation properly to Durandal’s faction.

I don't think Cagalli would order an arrest of one of the noble families unless she has proof. And I don't think ZAFT is going to wait before they attack.

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I won’t argue that the more support for Cagalli, the easier her work would be. What I need is the anime to deliver more details about it to make it absolutely clear, not you (no offense) or any other media. For example, in Batman Begins, it’s properly explained how Bruce Wayne was able to take back his company after its shares went public. Before that happens, his authority as just a usual shareholder is clearly defined. The script in Destiny didn’t do that to Cagalli.

Maybe not, but then again, we know from SEED that there are more than one factions on Orb. And not even the chief representative could control everything. That part should be clear.

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Yuna is a confusing character. We don’t know his rank and his actual authority. Yes, he was considered as Cagalli’s (Chief Representative) husband. Then again, you don’t see Michelle Obama leading a Navy fleet or ordering generals and admirals do you?

Yuna's authority comes from being a Seiran, not from being Cagalli's fiancee.

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No, there’s one example in Destiny where situation turned the way I like it but I still blame the script for poor execution. That would be Lacus & co survived the night ambush from a group of SWAT-like coordinators. I mean, how come they pull it off almost without a scratch when the only ones who have weapons at that time are Murrue & Andrew against a trained assassin coordinator group with auto-machine guns, silencers, bulletproof vests and night-scopes? How stupid can those assassins be? Like I said, I like the results that none of my fave charas are hurt but it’s still poorly written.

To be fair, I didn't say you have to like/dislike the result. I said, if the sittuation is not how you think it should be. In this case, you think the assassins should get at least a hit, even if you don't like to see your favorite characters getting hurt.

Well you guys are having quite discussion that I don't want to be dragged into lol.

So, I'm going to change the subject. After watching Gundam Seed Destiny for the 3rd time Shin Asuka isn't a a very appealing character (at least to me). During one of Shinn's "sad moments" it was really difficult to cry with him internally or sympathize. Unlike Kira, Athrun, Cagalli, Lacus, and the other characters "sad moments" in the Gundan Seed and Destiny it was far easier to sympathize with them in their grievances.

However, in Shinn's case all I can see is a mouthy, ungrateful, impulsive, and vengeful brat. He's definitely not suited for being a soldier. Unfortunately, that perspective has not changed even after I watched the series for the 3rd. Hilariously enough, I only liked him in episode 50... when it was all over. (Bad characterization I guess).

Although I agree with you guys that the anime script is flawed when it deals with the governments like ORB. For example the lack of providing reasonable background.

Yunas Seiran had backing from his father and their faction in ORB, not to mention the EA. Cagalli's father had quite the backbone, if he could withstand pressure from EA and ZAFT. I'm guessing all the reasonable voices in ORB died when they blew up the mass driver in Gundam Seed.

P.S. I always noticed this everytime I re-watch Gundam Seed Destiny, but they have recycled quite a few scenes from Gundam Seed. Also, I hate it how nobody told Shinn that he killed Captain Todaka, I really wanted to see his reaction and remorse. Oh well... it was nostalgic to watch this series again.