Bigfist wrote:But how many times have we heard this? Meaning developing a young club with an eye towards a championship run? I don't think I can count that high. Are the Dolans ready to spend more? I certainly hope they have a plan...a real plan....in place. One that involves getting real players here. If not, then the hiring of Francona is meaningless.

They can spend what they have spent.

Just have to stop spending it on Travis Hafner, Fatso Carmona Hernandez, Jhonny Be Bad...

Would be nice to see them spend more. It would certainly help, but how they have spent what they have is a much larger issue, IMO.

But that's my fear..Francona or no Francona. That we will see more bottom basement bargain signings. More Damons, more Duncans, more Trot Nixons, more Kotchmans. Now, if Francona has enough leverage to tell Antonetti "don't get player X, because he sucks", then maybe the hiring is worth it. But if he has no say in the matter, and we are left with more Damons, etc., then Francona will be nothing more than a guy sending out a lineup.

Bigfist wrote:But how many times have we heard this? Meaning developing a young club with an eye towards a championship run? I don't think I can count that high. Are the Dolans ready to spend more? I certainly hope they have a plan...a real plan....in place. One that involves getting real players here. If not, then the hiring of Francona is meaningless.

They can spend what they have spent.

Just have to stop spending it on Travis Hafner, Fatso Carmona Hernandez, Jhonny Be Bad...

Would be nice to see them spend more. It would certainly help, but how they have spent what they have is a much larger issue, IMO.

I'm with you. First thing, they've got to stop this mentality of "we've got $9 million to spend this offseason; let's spread it out over 4 players." What little money we have available in an off-season should go to one good player. The crap they waste their money on every year ends up not being any better than the AAAA crap they bring up every August to replace the original crap.

We're not going to attract many quality free agents, but if we do have a chance on any decent ones, they have to go for them and not waste their money on fillers. I'd rather get one good player and still have three holes than get four crappy ones and have four holes, anyway. (Although Taz Kadano would probably love playing for a team with so many holes.)

Pressrunnr wrote:I like the move a lot but it's also an incredibly lucky stroke for a front office duo that, presumably, kept their jobs by the skins of their teeth. Now, they basically bought themselves four more years -- the length of Francona's contract. Because you figure, with his track record, he deserves that long a leash from us to turn things around -- but because he's such close friends with Shaprio and Antonelli, Dolan essentially won't be able to let them go without him going too. In which case, Dolan's on the hook for running off a WS-winning manager, and of course, on the hook for his contract too. So again, essentially, Shaprio & Antonelli have themslves four years' job security.

Well played, guys. Good for you. Now that you have your Francona Shield .. listen to him. Get him whoever he says he needs. Let him bring the organization where it needs to be and stay out of his way. That's how I see success looking in this move. (Naturally, being a Cleveland fan, I can see how disaster looks 1,000 different ways, but I choose not to go there)

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPNTerry Francona has out clauses in his contract in the event that the people he works for are dismissed.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPNTerry Francona has out clauses in his contract in the event that the people he works for are dismissed.

Wait, so now we have to actively hope and pray that those two assclowns keep their jobs? Who'd have ever thought that was possible even a week ago?

One of the reasons I am down with this move. If Francona can't get it done, I believe it is the end of the road for the Lord Shapiro Era. That clause just shows how thin the ice if they currently stand on.

Bigfist wrote:But how many times have we heard this? Meaning developing a young club with an eye towards a championship run? I don't think I can count that high. Are the Dolans ready to spend more? I certainly hope they have a plan...a real plan....in place. One that involves getting real players here. If not, then the hiring of Francona is meaningless.

They can spend what they have spent.

Just have to stop spending it on Travis Hafner, Fatso Carmona Hernandez, Jhonny Be Bad...

Would be nice to see them spend more. It would certainly help, but how they have spent what they have is a much larger issue, IMO.

Bingo. A big payroll allows teams to cover their mistakes. If you hit on player acquisition, you can spend $75 million on a playoff roster, easy.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

The "issue" with pain meds was more a case of the FO covering their butts for being jerks. They had to make it look like there were contributing factors to why a very popular manager was fired. I'm sorry, "resigned". (yeah, right) Apparently Terry takes a pain med when he feels back pain. Someone in the organization saw a pill bottle on his nightstand when the team was on the road. Show me a retired baseball player that doesn't take something for post-career pain and I'll bet he mostly warmed the bench. They're just lucky that Francona didn't hire a lawyer to track down who let the info leak and sue them for disclosing information that is supposed to be protected by HIPAA.

IMO Francona was only a tiny part of the Sox' meltdown in 2011. There were a ton of prima donnas on the team and it just got to the point where a few players thought they no longer needed to play by the rules everyone else did. For one, I couldn't stand Josh Beckett from the day he showed up in '05. I'm surprised "beer and chicken" took as long as it did with him being there.

Francona was at the 100th anniversary celebration game they held at Fenway this season. He got a huge standing ovation from the crowd! Bobby V. must have felt like an ugly stepsister to Cinderella!

I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"

Now that all the excitement and hoopla from the Francona hiring is winding down, we're entering what is by far my least favorite period of the baseball year, at least from a Tribe standpoint...the month-long period until the postseason is over and moves can officially be made again. This time of year is like the dead zone, because we get to watch other teams (some, the same ones over and over) go for it, while we get to sit around and wonder what course our team will even take for next year.

It should be an interesting offseason for us--or, at least, it had better be--but it's going to be agonizing playing the waiting game. I hate that literally nothing can happen for the next 3+ weeks.

Adverb Harry wrote:It should be an interesting offseason for us--or, at least, it had better be

Agree, although we were saying this last offseason, post-Ubaldo-trade.

I do like the playoffs, and my wife watches which is fun.

It's at 1, but the reds/Giants game tomorrow is pretty compelling. Game 5, with Latos vs. Cain. Both pitching on regular rest- Latos pitched most of the innings for the injured Cueto in Game 1. I hear that the other day he also had a bad hangov- er, 'flu-like symptoms".

One of those games where every pitcher is liable to come in and pitch. The Reds are in a thinly veiled panic.

To speak to the thread, we've talked about how the manager doesn't make much of a difference- today was an exception. Bochy of SF lifted the starter Zito early, and matched up relievers in the 3rd like you'd normally see in the 7th. Kept a thin lead and eventually, brought in Lincecum to do long relief. 'Managing the game backwards"- was pretty fascinating.

Adverb Harry wrote:It should be an interesting offseason for us--or, at least, it had better be

Agree, although we were saying this last offseason, post-Ubaldo-trade.

I do like the playoffs, and my wife watches which is fun.

It's at 1, but the reds/Giants game tomorrow is pretty compelling. Game 5, with Latos vs. Cain. Both pitching on regular rest- Latos pitched most of the innings for the injured Cueto in Game 1. I hear that the other day he also had a bad hangov- er, 'flu-like symptoms".

One of those games where every pitcher is liable to come in and pitch. The Reds are in a thinly veiled panic.

To speak to the thread, we've talked about how the manager doesn't make much of a difference- today was an exception. Bochy of SF lifted the starter Zito early, and matched up relievers in the 3rd like you'd normally see in the 7th. Kept a thin lead and eventually, brought in Lincecum to do long relief. 'Managing the game backwards"- was pretty fascinating.

Yeah...that was brilliant.

Playoff baseball is just about the best damn thing on TV (Boardwalk, and GOT notwithstanding). I love the NFL playoff's, Master's, etc...but the most dramatic sport is baseball when played on the razors edge.

Too late now, but I wonder why Cito Gaston was never looked at for the Tribe job. I guess he has been out of baseball a couple yrs now- retired? He wouldn't be the oldest mgr. 68. I don't feel like looking up Davey Johnson or Leyland.

skatingtripods wrote:I give it 4 months before Francona gets fed up with this situation. I don't know why he's walking into it. Guy spent 8 seasons with an owner with bottomless pockets who hand-fed him whatever personnel he needed. That ain't happening here.

Best solution was to hire Sandy, blow it up, and let a young manager grow alongside a young team.

Now, we get to spin our wheels in mediocrity with a manager whose salary ranks in the top ten of player payroll.

Man, did they prove me wrong. Hard to believe I made this post just 4 months ago.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote:I give it 4 months before Francona gets fed up with this situation. I don't know why he's walking into it. Guy spent 8 seasons with an owner with bottomless pockets who hand-fed him whatever personnel he needed. That ain't happening here.

Best solution was to hire Sandy, blow it up, and let a young manager grow alongside a young team.

Now, we get to spin our wheels in mediocrity with a manager whose salary ranks in the top ten of player payroll.

Man, did they prove me wrong. Hard to believe I made this post just 4 months ago.

Clearly, they told him something we never thought would be possible.

Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.