This is going to be interesting, and I’m going to post updates on the progress. Just ordered a new solar system for my house from Solar City. And it’s not going to cost me anything out of pocket. They come out and put it in and then they become my electricity provider. I still get a small PG&E bill for the meter and gas I use, but the rest is billed from Solar City.

Yes – technically I could have saved even more if I built my own or bought one outright. And probably could have done that. But Solar City is one of Elon Musk’s companies (as in Tesla motors and SpaceX) and I like what he’s doing to improve the world so I decided not just to do what’s easy but I feel good about giving them my business.

Plan is to get 15 panels. I really only need 12 but I just wanted to generate a little extra power just for the hell of it. What’s amazing is that with an electric bill that’s only $75/month they still could actually save me a few bucks. But I’m doing it mostly because I like the idea of not burning carbon to make my power. And I get to save money doing it.

Technically because I had them add 3 extra panels my saving is less. I would have saved $12/month but not I’m saving only $1. That’s OK because that’s what I want. Money isn’t the biggest factor. But in the future my savings will increase because PG&E rates will go up faster than Solar City. The contract says they can only go up 3%/year max.

But – I want to get some personal experience with solar. That way I can talk about it from experience. There isn’t anything cleaner than solar power. Although I think the immediate threat from global warming is exaggerated, one can not deny that it has some effect. And I know that it will be bad in the long run to pump all the carbon into the environment. So reducing one’s carbon footprint and saving money doing it is a good thing. Most of the time being green costs more. This costs less.

Realistically I’ve been thinking about the big picture. In some ways PG&E is getting screwed because 1/2 of their costs is maintaining the power lines, not making the power. So since the solar power is effectively “stored” in the PG&E grid they are getting short changed from that aspect.

However, solar makes electricity on those hot summer days when PG&E needs it the most. PG&E has to have the ability to generate enough power in real time to meet peak demand. So if they can’t do that they have to ask some of their big power users to shut down so they can power our home air conditioners. But since I will be generating excess power not only will I not be a drag on the system, but I’ll be powering my neighbor’s air conditioner as well. The PG&E can sell their power to other customers and not have to shut them down. It also reduces their line posses on high demand days, and it makes it so they need to build fewer power plants to have the capacity to cover hot days. So PG&E gets some benefits too.

Also, as Solar City expands to more and more sites eventually they might become the nation’s biggest power provider. And that will get them some political clout to go up against big coal and oil. So I’m also stopping some strip mining and fracking, and I’m not funding Muslim terrorists as much. Although an electric car would make a bigger difference there.

There’s another interesting aspect to this as well. I might actually make some money at this. They have a referral program that pays me $250 if I get someone else signed up. And I get an extra $100 on a second level signup. And I’ve made a lot of money in the past with affiliate programs. So it’s going to be interesting to see how that works out as well.

I used to work for SolarCity and can show you that there are much better deals out there. I’ve been in the solar industry for over 6 years and I know how their contract works. I really hope you weren’t sold on the fact that you would own the system at the end of the agreement or that you can purchase it for the amount shown in the yearly table on that agreement (Big thing to note is that its the minimum purchase, which will then be done by a third party that Solarcity hires). Anyways if you want just let me know if you want a few more pointers to make sure you’re getting the best deal with the best company.

Side note related to NetNeutrality of all things: Notice how now you get a small bill from local utility… for ACCESS to electric network/power grid. All of us have that item, just do not pay much attention to it. Rest of the bill are KWh actually used that MUST be made from resources, power generation which costs money.
For JCD, Steve Gibson,… other Internet celebrities who promote “charging by the bit” there is a practical lesson. You charge a small, fixed fee for ACCESS, equal to all – be it 30 room mansion or studio apartment; whether they use thousands of few KWh per month. Same should be for the Internet. Bits ARE NOT GENERATED at cost of resources that must be regenerated once used. Internet is zero-sum game. Bits sent by one party paying for access to Internet are seen by another party paying for access to the Internet. Hence, the access fee is the one and only one fee that customers should pay. And in a zero-sum game, all bits are equal.

bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist striving to become a Nerdsays:

the bigger issue for some is *latency*. Especially for a coordinated realtime measurement… the distance doesn’t even matter so much when it might be a quarter second to get out of the fucking everybody-slopped-with-one-pipe-but-still-twisted-copper-inbread-hermorphroditic-sisters that ‘last 200 ft’.

uverse sux

bobbo, a student of the dismal science who who does not understand Macro Economics once you get off an island with 12 coconuts, 3 canoes, and 6 paddlessays:

I also Bravo your support of Solar Musk. Sad to think it comes from the same stank as your assessment that “the immediate threat from global warming is exaggerated.”

There is no significant immediate threat……. other than droughts and heat waves and more powerful hurricanes and the Arctic jet stream dipping down to the East Coast, perma-frost disappearing with release of methane, NorthWest Passage open now for Russian oil drilling, islands and deltas and glaciers disappearing….. but nothing in your neighborhood? Very expansive world view.

Solar City’s “investment” is fixed and limited to the cost of solar equipment…. why should there be any escalators at all?

The analogy: you are in a bus that has just driven off the “Road of Death” in South America with a 1000 foot gorge beneath you. “So far….no immediate threat.” The crash is 3.5 seconds away. Its all about time frames. AGW will disrupt world society in 22nd Century killing off most hoomans.

The escalating rates actually make sense. Basically they have to recoup their investment to make a profit. They could charge a flat rate per month to do that. But but escalating the rate they can charge a lower rate up front to make the argument that “we are cheaper than the current rate”. If it were flat then it might be more expensive and they would make less sales.

bobbo, the pragmatic existential evangelical anti-theist striving to become a Nerdsays:

Robbed California of hundreds of millions by claiming extra credit for fast swap battery stations for the Tesla. They produced a demo that was like those software demos where the software isn’t done yet. wouldn’t surprise me if they were doing something like that here.

They are one step below the mafia in Europe which sold solar electricity at night.

Now back to the topic on hand – this is great as long as Government is out of the loop, taking from me and giving to you/Solar City. I would be extremely happy if this program existed on its own merit without any Governmental interference. Sadly, Solar City IS getting Federal Government subsidies (quite huge ones per each and every customer and by themselves as an industry). Which I see as stealing from me and other citizens to pay some Corporate goons and citizens who take advantage of their fellow man (you).
Environmental impact MUST be a personal choice. If you care – YOU and YOU ALONE invest in that interest and I’ll praise you. As soon as you steal from me for the purpose you care about and profit from – you are morally criminal for me. Nothing else.
Finally “Although I think the immediate threat from global warming is exaggerated, one can not deny that it has some effect.” – no, no effect. Pure, simple, proven and tested science. In last 250000 years (by widely studied and accepted ice core data) there were DOZENS of periods during which Earth experienced combined STEEP RISE in CO2 concentration and coincidental STEEP DECLINE in temperatures over thousands of years. Proving that in the Earth ecosystem CO2 has negligible impact on Earth temperature, if any (overwhelmed by orders of magnitude stronger impact from thew water vapor in the atmosphere). Add to that NASA/MIT study from 1990’s warming that proves beyond Court required reasonable doubt that current global warming CAN’t be caused by any greenhouse effect (not just not from CO2 but any greenhouse effect), because for a decade proportion of energy returned by Earth to space and incoming energy have RISEN year-by-year, excluding greenhouse effect of any kind – you have no scientific right to claim even “a small impact” or “long term impact”.

Ever hear of the one about carbon dating bones from pompeii and comparing this to ice core samples and arriving at a date down to a tolerance of couple three weeks. And that other story about some core sample showing big change over short period. 10/12yrs.. that sample maybe from gazillion yrs ago and not so accurate but let us pretend.

Next Wednesday magnetic pole shift and while remote control has locked everybody out of their vehicle, we ponder the idea of change.

We got solar from Verengo and turned it on about 3 months ago. We are loving it. The way our billing works we pay a flat rate every month (nice for budgeting purposes) and then get Edison credits for anything we produce over our usage. Right now we’re running about a $220 credit with Edison, and at the end of a year we’ll get a check from Edison for any credit we have. What’s nice is that in the middle of the day we can run the air conditioning and still be net producing. I’m interested to see how this plays out over the course of a year, but as I said the flat rate is nice for budgeting (no more extreme spikes), it’s cheaper than our average, and we should get a decent check from Edison every year.

Now back to the topic on hand – this is great as long as Government is out of the loop, taking from me and giving to you/Solar City. /// No rational appreciation of what General Revenue means.

I would be extremely happy if this program existed on its own merit without any Governmental interference. /// Me too. But how is Solar without subsidies to compete against coal and oil and hydro and Nuke that is Gubment Subsidized to the Max?

Sadly, Solar City IS getting Federal Government subsidies (quite huge ones per each and every customer and by themselves as an industry). Which I see as stealing from me and other citizens to pay some Corporate goons and citizens who take advantage of their fellow man (you). /// Your general income tax is theft? Very liberTARDian of you. How often do you clean your basement abode?

Environmental impact MUST be a personal choice. /// That would be true ONLY if when YOU farted, I couldn’t smell it. But you do, and so do I.

If you care – YOU and YOU ALONE invest in that interest and I’ll praise you. As soon as you steal from me for the purpose you care about and profit from – you are morally criminal for me. Nothing else. /// Tax = theft. Good boy.

Finally “Although I think the immediate threat from global warming is exaggerated, one can not deny that it has some effect.” – no, no effect. Pure, simple, proven and tested science. In last 250000 years (by widely studied and accepted ice core data) there were DOZENS of periods during which Earth experienced combined STEEP RISE in CO2 concentration and coincidental STEEP DECLINE in temperatures over thousands of years. /// Lie. Provide link showing same. co2 levels have not exceed 400ppm in 100K years

Proving that in the Earth ecosystem CO2 has negligible impact on Earth temperature, if any (overwhelmed by orders of magnitude stronger impact from thew water vapor in the atmosphere). Add to that NASA/MIT study from 1990′s warming that proves beyond Court required reasonable doubt that current global warming CAN’t be caused by any greenhouse effect (not just not from CO2 but any greenhouse effect), because for a decade proportion of energy returned by Earth to space and incoming energy have RISEN year-by-year, excluding greenhouse effect of any kind – you have no scientific right to claim even “a small impact” or “long term impact”. /// Lie. Provide supporting link.

You do show where Marc’s denial ultimately takes one.

If you think Tax = Theft, then co2 is good for you is only another step away.

Well, CO2 does trap heat energy so it is a FACT that there will be some increase in temperature. And total storm activity is something that increases with heat. And they are hard links together. Global warming will produce more and stronger storms. Lack of more and stronger storms is also a hard indicator of no global warming.

We just had the worlds strongest known storm ever last year over the Phillipines. It was a Category 6 on a scale that stops at 5. Where ya been?

But yeah there are many variables in a chaotic data field that is hard to measure all regarding a very slowly (for humans) changing cause and effect.

Still….it perplexes me that you admit to enough factors that you should recognize your only quibble is about some very minor factor of timing. Off by a factor of 100% and its your great, great, grandkiddies that die off, instead of your grandkiddies. Its all exactly the same thing: what happens when you change the atmosphere to make it more heat retentive?

The only rational position I can see you having is that AGW is so slow that we can “adapt” to it. Thats wrong. New York City cannot adapt to mean sea level being 6 feet higher. Cities don’t adapt.

…..or that we can “reverse” the effects of AGW when its agreed it happening. There have already been several good tv shows/discovery channels series on this issue. I suppose, in extremity, this is possible….but only the presenting issue: that of hot temps/sea level rise because in order to reverse that we would need some magical fix (like Nuke Bombs set off at tectonic boundaries to cause a nuclear winter) BUT at the same time, we’d have to come off coal and oil as our main energy source otherwise we haven’t fixed anything…..so “basically” this won’t work either.

Ergo==we are in fact DEAD right now. It will just take 100 years for the corpus to fall over.

“The only rational position I can see you having is that AGW is so slow that we can “adapt” to it. Thats wrong. New York City cannot adapt to mean sea level being 6 feet higher. Cities don’t adapt.”

ok, i’m calling bullshit on this little diversion straight away having heard that scare prediction for 30+ years now…why is it the models never match the “data” if “the science is in”?

bobbo, the AGW hair on fire single issue advocat who long ago would have doused himself in plant based ethanol and lit himself aflame to bring light and heat to this subject if it were not for my love of beersays:

bobbo, the AGW hair on fire single issue advocat who long ago would have doused himself in plant based ethanol and lit himself aflame to bring light and heat to this subject if it were not for my love of beersays:

This only works because the purchase cost of the solar cells is subsidized. Factor in the real cost and no deal. The next problem is that you need a massive back up system for night and cloudy/stormy weather. By the time you factor that in the real “savings” turns out to be an illusion but as long as the marks paying the bills don’t catch on that they are being scammed and taken to the cleaners… there’s money to be made!

Umm, just pretend that humans are really tiny. And unlike VRADs, you can put lots of goldfish, garden gnomes, and shit into the transparent aluminum giant tanks to offset the cost as a neighborhood beautification subsidy assistance program.

I’ve never understood the “full cost of solar cells” as what is actually used is their tax allowed depreciation schedule of 5-6 years when in fact they last 30-50 years depending on maintenance and baseballs.

You’ll find their sales weasels working a folding table at your local Home Depot on the weekends, emanating a distinct “too good to be true” vibe.

While the cost savings may be negligible, I do like the idea of having power (at least during daylight hours) if the commercial power is out.

Nonetheless, it’s a far better deal financially to get one of the subsidized Federal loans and work directly with a solar contractor. It is more effort, but in addition to it being a far better deal financially, you don’t give up control.

Total splunge. Except that your insight is analogous to exactly what Monsanto does when it does not allow homeowners{farmers} to sell their land to anyone that does not follow through with the previous owners’ contract — to protect humans from splunge and superweeds, I guess…

That is a “nice wrinkle” there McCullough…not to be dismissed as splunge.

In my view—solar systems ARE personal property. My proof: try to pick up a solar system and run it through your fingers like sand. Cant do it like you can with real property.

The common law is tricky: personal property becomes part of the real property when it becomes affixed in a manner that indicates it is meant to be permanently part of it.

I first really tumbled on this when looking at rental units in Germany. All the light fixtures, heating units, stoves, refrigerators etc where gone. Even the switch plates in the wall were gone. In Germany==those were all personal property.

Today in America when buying a home you need to assure that all such items are specifically included: if you like making assumptions maybe not the pool in the ground but certainly the hot tub. No one would disagree about the refrigerator…. right? The slide in oven===shows the break line of what is “customary” in a certain locale.

Solar panels is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. As it is being separately financed from the house==OF COURSE it does not permanently attach to and become part of the real estate. It remains personal (non-real) property.

The solar system is leased property that is under contract with SolarCity for the duration (20 years?) of the term.

Short of the home owner paying for the hardware upfront (which would change SC’s business model completely), there isn’t a way to include it with the house. The lease has to be assumed (or bought out) by the new owner or the original lessee has to fulfill the termination clause in the contract.

OR COURSE the dumbos engage in crony capitalism that benefits the RICH.

………………but put the Koolaid down, remove the tin foil hat and LOOK: the Dumbo help the rich green corruption program ALSO HELPS YOU ME and Marc Perkel.

so…. in one all too confusing reality for the conservative sheep: Solar City is a gubment program that helps the middle class. The similar program would be the one that pays for R $Money’s home car elevator by allowing depreciation over 3 years. See how that helps the already CRIMINAL RICH rather than you and me?

PUKES===help only the already too RICH who should be in Jail for the CRIMINALS they are, while

Really not that hard for people with reading comprehension. You realize it is a followup post, so then you click on the link that takes you to an earlier post. Am wondering how you managed to produce any book reports. Perhaps that’s why they kept having you try to do them. Like John Kerry’s mom on her deathbed,”Remember, integrity, integrity, integrity.” Kerry thought that was demonstrating how honest he was.

bobbo, the Climate Change ALARMIST who doesn't want his kiddies boiled to death as the Oilgarchs are currently Hell Bent on doing, and the Science Denying Far Right are ignorantly supportingsays:

I’m still waiting for California to fall into the sea. It’s the only way we’ll be rid of bobbo. /// I’m in Sacto==East of the San Andres. 150 feet elevation. I think I’m good until the year 2300.

McCullough==I’ll follow every “rule” I know of. Even those that aren’t equally enforced …. because I know how hard your job is…. interating with the Public and all ….. being immersed in all this free speech and having people disagree with your fundamental beliefs and such is very trying.

Years ago you deleted a comment of mine that personally attacked you. I was tangeting off a point of humor, but indeed, it was near impossible to see and you were quite right.

…………….so now, I respect your sensitivities and don’t even comment on the sea level around your garden isle. I do assume the ocean floor is rising at your location. How could it be otherwise?

If you think I am commenting too much…… say so. What rule must I follow?

………..Ha, ha. I wasn’t going to comment to the girls, why am I taking after you?

…………………………………because I am a sheep/herd animal and as such I want my Shepard to be someone I look up to. You know…. equal handed and fair. Cant be fair without rules that are announced and equally applied.

Try it.

bobbo, the Climate Change ALARMIST who doesn't want his kiddies boiled to death as the Oilgarchs are currently Hell Bent on doing, and the Science Denying Far Right are ignorantly supportingsays:

“As for Denver, I thought that was flooding from rain. The high country above Denver had record rains about 4 months ago, don’t think it got that bad in Denver.”

riiiiiiight bobbo, flooding from rains in Denver was up to the second-story windows like the site would have you believe.

http://i.imgur.com/f8UI9vr.jpg //// My first response to this got lost in cyberspace…. probably still sitting in my browsers history, but I’ll post here again for clarity.

Marc–I believe that is exactly what you meant by linking to a group of pictures. But….. my comment still controls: why should I put more work into figuring out what you mean than you do in explaining yourself? You showed multiple pictures. I looked at NEW YORK which was underwater. I only glanced at Denver. How much time should anyone spend wondering what you mean by posting pictures without comment?

I say none. I told you I disagreed and why and how to make it better.

I am such a better person than you….. and you suck.

Be direct. Be honest. Do Better.
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Speaking of failures, FSN follows Pugnacious and links:
7/26/2014 at 3:38 pm

Over the 55-years from 1958 to 2012, climate models not only significantly over-predict observed warming in the tropical troposphere, but they represent it in a fundamentally different way than is observed. ” ///// So what?

bobbo, the Climate Change ALARMIST who doesn't want his kiddies boiled to death as the Oilgarchs are currently Hell Bent on doing, and the Science Denying Far Right are ignorantly supportingsays:

When the Holocene ends in a few more centuries, we’ll be scrambling for ways to add as much GHG to the atmosphere as we can (as well as many other mitigation measures, such as broadcasting carbon black on the advancing glaciers).

What is the carbon footprint of your solar panels? How much energy and green house gasses are used in the creation (and shipment from China) of your “zero” carbon solar panels. See recent news articles about the greenhouse gas releases in Chinese factories creating these panels. Zero Carbon panels are about as sensible as “PZEV” on the back of all non-hybrid gasoline Subaru’s… when exactly are they zero emissions? When not running.

Ignoring the carbon issue, I would agree solar has a place as part of the system.

Even if there is no carbon footprint, you are still increasing emissions. When the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining you have to ramp up a generator to replace that lost power. Those power plants are operating at less efficiency than one operating continuously. This differential is more than the savings in terms of CO2 from the renewable energy.

Just wait until you try to sell your house before the lease is up. The solar leasing company has a lien on your house and will need to approve of any prospective buyer and their credit rating before they can take up your solar lease. That is, unless you can buy the system ourright before you sell the house.

Ironically, when solar weapons arrive, it will be China who’s protected.

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