1:00:30 wrote:And so, Pinocchio, it's a very interesting movie, I could tell you what its fundamental presupposition is, I'll just guide you through it very, very rapidly. So, at the beginning of the movie, Gipedo, who's the archetype of the good father, by the way, which is an archetype that we've forgotten about but does exist because our culture isn't just a tyrannical patriarchy, as you can tell by the fact that we're warm and comfortable and we're not tearing each other to shreds at the moment, which is what you do in a state of absolute chaos, right? It's mayhem while you're freezing and starving. Right. And that isn't what we have. We have peace. And it's rare. And it's amazing that we have it. But we shouldn't take it for granted. Because it's not the normal order of things. The normal order of things is destructive chaos. And if you're fortunate enough to live somewhere that's peaceful and productive, you should thank your lucky stars every second of your life. And if you don't do that all it means is that you don't know anything about history and you know nothing about human beings. Because things can get absolutely monstrous and it happens all the time. And there's always a fraction of the population who thinks that's how they'd like things to be. And perhaps there's a fraction of you that's like that too. And I wouldn't nurture that fragment, if I was you, unless you want it to go where it will take you. Anyways, back to Pinocchio.

Anyone who's backed helplessly into a corner enough times can become bold enough to burn everything down. The mechanism is known: crazy is unpredictable. Even longtime antagonists will keep their respectful distance. The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature, the impressive thing is how fragile are capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured.

1:00:30 wrote:And so, Pinocchio, it's a very interesting movie, I could tell you what its fundamental presupposition is, I'll just guide you through it very, very rapidly. So, at the beginning of the movie, Gipedo, who's the archetype of the good father, by the way, which is an archetype that we've forgotten about but does exist because our culture isn't just a tyrannical patriarchy, as you can tell by the fact that we're warm and comfortable and we're not tearing each other to shreds at the moment, which is what you do in a state of absolute chaos, right? It's mayhem while you're freezing and starving. Right. And that isn't what we have. We have peace. And it's rare. And it's amazing that we have it. But we shouldn't take it for granted. Because it's not the normal order of things. The normal order of things is destructive chaos. And if you're fortunate enough to live somewhere that's peaceful and productive, you should thank your lucky stars every second of your life. And if you don't do that all it means is that you don't know anything about history and you know nothing about human beings. Because things can get absolutely monstrous and it happens all the time. And there's always a fraction of the population who thinks that's how they'd like things to be. And perhaps there's a fraction of you that's like that too. And I wouldn't nurture that fragment, if I was you, unless you want it to go where it will take you. Anyways, back to Pinocchio.

Anyone who's backed helplessly into a corner enough times can become bold enough to burn everything down. The mechanism is known: crazy is unpredictable. Even longtime antagonists will keep their respectful distance. The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature, the impressive thing is how fragile are capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured.

Fuse ... for me, a very interesting and time appropriate OP ... most OP's in this forum are parochial whereas your post implies a broader scope ... although I don't know if that was your intention.

The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature

Ancient Chinese sages called what you write as "the sudden reversion":

物極必反 wùjíbìfǎn

... roughly translated as "when things reach an extreme, they can only move in the opposite direction"

The sage(s) also claim the source of their insight to be 'nature". For example ... the rose blossom ... the 'peak' of the plant's cycle soon dies and the cycle starts all over again.

capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured

let's hope we are headed in the direction you suggested.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Fuse ... for me, a very interesting and time appropriate OP ... most OP's in this forum are parochial whereas your post implies a broader scope ... although I don't know if that was your intention.

If it resonates with you, that's excellent. It didn't used to be this way, but this forum is now host to a lot of maladjusted/paranoid/anarchy/burn it all down types. And with more extreme political polarization in general, I do find Jordan Peterson's above tangent timely.

We don't live in absolute chaos. We have food, shelter, and heat. And we don't live in constant destruction and war, not the vast majority of us in the west. Yet many people now and on this forum indulge in this rhetoric and longing for wanton destruction, free-for-all, and chaos. I have to think it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos. Otherwise it's sheer ignorance and stupidity. There's nothing easier than letting things go to shit. Just stop thinking and react on impulse. Don't organize, don't compromise, don't plan and work toward a common future. A much more brutal chaos has reigned throughout history. People who think that that is preferable have either never experienced the horrors of war or have no idea what they wish for. Because it's never very far away.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:

fuse wrote:The impressive thing is not the sudden reversion to absolute chaos, that's the rule, the default state of nature

Ancient Chinese sages called what you write as "the sudden reversion":

物極必反 wùjíbìfǎn

... roughly translated as "when things reach an extreme, they can only move in the opposite direction"

The sage(s) also claim the source of their insight to be 'nature". For example ... the rose blossom ... the 'peak' of the plant's cycle soon dies and the cycle starts all over again.

What a great connection! Yep. I like it.

Our language and dialogue has become more extreme, less thoughtful. We react like a hair trigger when the other side says or does something slightly foul. We label, judge, and punish. We don't argue the point anymore, we just try to beat the other side into submission. We expect the other side to bend to our will, and if they retaliate we band together and excoriate them all the more harshly. There's no patience, too little openness for diversity of thought, and a false sense of security in having numbers and outspoken figureheads.

There is something pernicious and regressive in the air. People are just feeding and feeding it. And as far as I can see, no side is clean.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:

fuse wrote:capability, measure, and subtlety of thought. And that is what should be nurtured

Fuse ... your post is such an inspiration ... like a breath of fresh ... clean ... air. A rare enough incident these days ... both figuratively and literally!

Let me start with your last comment:

Sure, but we can do more than hope.

Agreed ... and this post is my first baby step beyond hope.

It didn't used to be this way, but this forum is now host to a lot of maladjusted/paranoid/anarchy/burn it all down types.

We both joined ILP in 2006 ... you joined about 6 months earlier than me. Since 2006, I've popped in and out of ILP ... always found it to be a hostile arena ... always left more vexed than when I entered.

For me, there are only two possible answers:

1) The hostility is by design ... attract some serious thinkers and proceed to squash them like a cockroach that has entered one's personal space.

2) An open ... liberal ... no holds barred ... project with virtually no attempt to steer ... control ... manipulate ... simply let the forum go wherever it goes.

I prefer to believe the latter. If right ... ILP has become a microcosm of humanity ... the mix is likely about right ... the proportion of vexatious bullhorns about right and so on. A wonderful circumstance ... with this as a backdrop and with conscious effort ... we may figure out where humanity is headed.

I have to think it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos. Otherwise it's sheer ignorance and stupidity.

I prefer to believe your first alternative ...

"it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos."

Why?

1) Information overload from exploding technologies for the past 70 years. Our brains are inundated with information ... overwhelming our ability to integrate ... synthesize all this shit into a coherent whole.

2) The natural inclination to believe that we are doing the "right thing" ... we are living the "right way". No one wants to believe they have been deceived.

3) We are in fact living the "right way" for reasons we don't know or understand. Our life choices have brought humanity to where it is today ... we are not yet on our knees ... we may well be on the threshold of a very positive transformation ... metamorphosis. Does the caterpillar know that it is on route to become a butterfly?

4) The "desperation" ... the "feeling of being trapped" will disappear when the clouds are rolled back and the light shines through ... figuratively speaking.

Enough for a baby step.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

That's right, I think it was always kind of a free for all here at ILP, but there used to be a better mix of high level discussion and levity circa 2002 - 2006. People were cordial for the most part. Alongside the forum, there were hopes of implementing a semi-academic journal called the "Symposium." It never really took off, and the core membership went through a few upheavals. To tell the truth, things aren't half bad at the moment. But we're usually just short of the critical mass to make this a respectable forum.

"it's from desperation, from feeling trapped in another kind of chaos."

Why?

1) Information overload from exploding technologies for the past 70 years. Our brains are inundated with information ... overwhelming our ability to integrate ... synthesize all this shit into a coherent whole.

2) The natural inclination to believe that we are doing the "right thing" ... we are living the "right way". No one wants to believe they have been deceived.

3) We are in fact living the "right way" for reasons we don't know or understand. Our life choices have brought humanity to where it is today ... we are not yet on our knees ... we may well be on the threshold of a very positive transformation ... metamorphosis. Does the caterpillar know that it is on route to become a butterfly?

4) The "desperation" ... the "feeling of being trapped" will disappear when the clouds are rolled back and the light shines through ... figuratively speaking.

My personal opinion is that the well-oiled machines of state and economy, and the day to day business and transactions that sustain them, hum ruthlessly and incessantly so that they suck up all the oxygen. It's not easy to step outside of their matrix, catch one's breath, and take control of one's life.

Life is hard. Even with our basic needs met, life is still challenging and daunting and sometimes quite horrible. I can't imagine life any other way. But I think one has to respect how far we've come from square one and the power of our communities and collaboration.

fuse wrote:To tell the truth, things aren't half bad at the moment. But we're usually just short of the critical mass to make this a respectable forum.

ILP has the potential to grow into a world changing platform ... when the core of it's current members embrace the idiom ... "honey attracts more flies than vinegar".

fuse wrote:But I think one has to respect how far we've come from square one and the power of our communities and collaboration.

Absolutely agree ... and the untapped potential is enormous.

fuse wrote:My personal opinion is that the well-oiled machines of state and economy, and the day to day business and transactions that sustain them, hum ruthlessly and incessantly so that they suck up all the oxygen. It's not easy to step outside of their matrix, catch one's breath, and take control of one's life.

Exquisite analogy ... so few words ... such an enormous statement of fact.

The 'machine' you describe has been on artificial life support for more than a century ... the effectiveness of this artificial life support is slipping daily.

The paradox is that the world's population has more than tripled while the 'machine' has been on artificial life support ... go figure eh!

The desperation you mentioned in an earlier post permeates all classes of peoples ...

1) The people with privilege have never lost anything ... there only concern is the anarchy ... chaos ... that will surely result if the natives get too restless.

2) The people with something fear they may lose the little they have.

3) The people with nothing fear they may get hungry.

Insecurity reigns supreme these days ...

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

fuse wrote:To tell the truth, things aren't half bad at the moment. But we're usually just short of the critical mass to make this a respectable forum.

ILP has the potential to grow into a world changing platform ...

I'll settle for consistently cordial and riveting discourse.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:

fuse wrote:My personal opinion is that the well-oiled machines of state and economy, and the day to day business and transactions that sustain them, hum ruthlessly and incessantly so that they suck up all the oxygen. It's not easy to step outside of their matrix, catch one's breath, and take control of one's life.

Exquisite analogy ... so few words ... such an enormous statement of fact.

I've just thought a lot about it. It's been said much better, many times before.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:The 'machine' you describe has been on artificial life support for more than a century ... the effectiveness of this artificial life support is slipping daily.

The paradox is that the world's population has more than tripled while the 'machine' has been on artificial life support ... go figure eh!

The desperation you mentioned in an earlier post permeates all classes of peoples ...

I think there are emerging systems that will render "the machine" as we know it obsolete. For better or worse, I don't know. But I decline to speculate at the moment.

3) I tend to 'see' self evident direction ... versus speculation ... and 'emerging systems' are simply a continuation of the battle ... man versus nature ... since time immemorial.

4) Nature will obviously triumph ... though I'm not clear yet what the triumph will look like.

5) Back home ... listened to a bit of Terrence McKenna ... he hit a nerve ... brought back a memory ... reworked the thoughts I mentioned above.

6) You likely know I've spent most of the past 11+ years in China. Language has not hindered my contemplation ... experience ... of human life. I don't understand a word of Chinese ... there is no local English speaking community ... and for some reason I've refused to use a telephone for almost 11 years. The exception being a couple of years teaching conversational English to a handful of Chinese people ... some of whom were very interesting and helpful.

7) I only know ... recognize ... two or three Chinese characters ... 人 person and ... 囚 jail. You will note the character for 'jail' is a person inside a box.

When chatting with Chinese people ... at the schools where I taught conversational English ... I would often write the Chinese character for jail on the white board and translate it as "culture" ... ergo: I 'see' culture as a jail.

9) McKenna mentioned the same thought ... he suggests habit ... culture ... is a retardant to 'novelty'.

10) I 'see' habit a bit differently ... for me 'habit' ... retardation imposed by culture ... is a necessary stage to prepare a critical mass of people for the next phase of 'novelty' ... without 'habit' to stall ... slow down ... the process ... humanity would go crazy in no time.

11) Today is one of those days where I acknowledge my almost 25 year odyssey with God (Nature) ... as both an interesting and exciting adventure.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:McKenna mentioned the same thought ... he suggests habit ... culture ... is a retardant to 'novelty'.

I think that's right. McKenna has a phrase, "culture is not your friend." Culture embeds us with an operating system, but the OS isn't for us, we aren't the users of it, we are being operated on to further the survival of institutions, the machines of state and economy.

Culture is cute, it shows us objects of desire, it makes us feel social and connected, but it isn't ultimately meant to serve us. The goal in developing one's own culture is not novelty for novelty's sake, but reclaiming your headspace, your life and experience, for yourself.

McKenna wrote:Culture is not your friend. Culture is for other peoples’ convenience and the convenience of various institutions, churches, companies, tax collection schemes, what have you. It is not your friend. It insults you. It disempowers you. It uses and abuses you. None of us are well-treated by culture [...]

But the culture is a perversion. It fetishizes objects. It creates consumer mania. It preaches endless forms of false happiness, endless forms of false understanding in the form of squirrelly religions and silly cults. It invites people to diminish themselves and dehumanize themselves by behaving like machines [...]

We have to create culture, don’t watch TV, don’t read magazines, don’t even listen to NPR. Create your own roadshow. The nexus of space and time where you are now is the most immediate sector of your universe, and if you’re worrying about Michael Jackson or Bill Clinton or somebody else, then you are disempowered, you’re giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is shit-brained, this kind of thinking. That is all cultural diversion, and what is real is you and your friends and your associations, your highs, your orgasms, your hopes, your plans, your fears. And we are told ‘no’, we’re unimportant, we’re peripheral. ‘Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.’ And then you’re a player. You don’t want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that’s being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:... and 'emerging systems' are simply a continuation of the battle ... man versus nature ... since time immemorial.

4) Nature will obviously triumph ... though I'm not clear yet what the triumph will look like.

I just want to appreciate that we are of nature - and bound to fold back into the whole.

The spirit of man honors the fecund bubble of void from which it originated through an offering of sweat, blood, and tears - the fluids of life and effort. There is only being in nature, a projection of the world, harking back to itself, breath of the void.

There is Being essence and existence after the folding in, there is a new renewed progression into the essential nature of being through its excogenic existential unfolding3. The spirit of man vaporizes from its fluid manifestAtions.

The spiritual vapor of the essence of man then goes through a metaphysicAl compression in situ, due to the gravity2 collapse of Its refolding clearing permanent inscriptions, assuring an eternal recycling.

WendyDarling wrote:No Meno, I don't buy that "clearing of permanent inscriptions." One's essence remains or mine did for some disturbing reason. Who we are doesn't change, only where we are.

Most of the above refers to scholastic philosophy, the last to alchemical consequences of the forum preceding mine.

Scholasticism is of great interest, since it is the predecessor of real ontological deliberation, imbued with pure transcendentalism, before the renaissance.

Given the view of the incredible denial of ontology, beginning with Kant, and the consequential method, by which it's method has come to a very doubtful past-future, the conclusion doesn't seem as far fetched at all.

To predicate Being before the Essence of its contextual ramifications,do to its post modern significations, does support the idea of a changing soul, in the sense of a qualifying principle, not one, where it is a question of numbers, vis, how large are the numbers in a set of souls, whether be counted in real or virtual numbers.

Let's say, Wendy, we were to identify a personal characteristic by overwhelming like qualities as racial profiles. Here, the soul may, because of like qualities shared, may vastly outnumber those, which aren't, could not differentiate a very large group in terms of other than most relevant characteristics.

The idea is, that the soul, considered in terms of quantifiable aggregates, may not singly be separated singularly, since there are no two perfectly unique individuals in the world, other then notable ones, and even they have commonly shared characteristics.

Those who become singular induviduals, composed of either the self deluding ones, the ones who are not so different, will not find themselves in a unique sense of self regardless where they are or who they are, or who they think they are.

The truly evolved, or the truly unevolved, notable or not, are either absolutely complete, and good, or, the truly uninvolved and truly unique with opposite characteristics.

The truly evolved have no fear of becoming part of an indistinguishable soul, and their evolution does not fear a rebirth , or a lack of it, knowing that the souk, the spirit, is really wholly, one, or consisting of infinitely many.

On the other hand , the unenlightened's relationship with non unique mass characteristics, always take the form of imposing control on them, with hidden motives.

This is why I fail to see, how a whole-ly, connection with a partial manifestation can form an unholy alliance, either in a transcendental, or an imminent sense.

A real participation based on fear of being different, creates a mistique that such separation is dangerous.The mystique of participation, breaking bods is tantamount of loosing their sole.

The only real way to avoid chaos, is through a reintegration based on a mediated and tested patterns, seen in the protection of territory. Only through many trials and long passages of time can souls gain the liberating binding force which results in less protection of territory.

Until this is achieved, freedom from chaos can not come about.

The enlightened Buddhist proclaim that Satori may take millions of rebirths, or it may happen in only one.

One qualification is, to be able fearlessly to loose one's self, with the thought of never ever having to re-incarnate.

This is why Jesus said, those who love their life will loose it, but Those who hate their life will gain Eternity.

Wendy, its late, and suffering from jet lag, and on re-reading and editing, find my narrative arduously long , tediously so at times. But the concept of chaos is severe nowadays, and your critique deserved a shorter, snappier reply. However, I am sticking with this one, in spite of its shortcomings, because the topic is so profound, that it could not be encapsulated.

But the simple conclusion is, yes, the soul can be changeless regardless of context, or it may not, but the malleability of the soul is what determines the level of freedom from fear.

That this is no easy task, not to mention, even possible, is known, but it has been written so eloquently by but , masters and aspirants, is well documented.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

WendyDarling wrote:My soul identifies with an emotion based home, a specific emotion, on a specific plane of existence. I am not part of a soul group so if that's what you are referring to, I have no idea.

since there are no two perfectly unique individuals in the world,

How do you figure?

Go to bed...geez.

How to figure?

If there were two identical souls a third one had to ascertain whether he perceived the same soul doubly or, if he perceived two souls which were in fact identical.

Remember, even if the two souls's congruency , and their degree of overlap was off by an infinitesimally small degree, they would still be considered as separate.

First off, there is no such idea as perfectly unique for being unique is the perfect aspect already. Secondly, all souls are unique individuals with unique experiences and memories, even with unique energy signatures. Sure there are some similarities qua being but what isn't similar or identical (which is not possible) is unique. Thirdly, this discussion is bizarre.

I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.

WendyDarling wrote:First off, there is no such idea as perfectly unique for being unique is the perfect aspect already. Secondly, all souls are unique individuals with unique experiences and memories, even with unique energy signatures. Sure there are s ome similarities qua being but what isn't similar or identical (which is not possible) is unique. Thirdly, this discussion is bizarre.

Ok, bizarre or not, is not the idea that a thousand angels can dance at the top of a needle is no less so?And that thought has been entertained for a very long time.

Now, I am no angel, but the idea of angels have come to about the closest to perfection as can be imagined, and I would argue for a relative perfection, not an absolute one, if I may be permitted.

Your middle point is well taken and makes sense, but that supports the relative paradigmn of relative identity.

What makes a soul absolutely unique if, relatively speaking they share common characteristics? Even if so, how could such uniqueness be defined, when the very definitions themselves seek usually to tipify identity in terms of an outstanding characteristic, subsuming all other, less significant ones?

I do agree that in the world of common sense in the here and now, stereotyping seems to work, but in an absolute world of the individual soul, such sensibility may not.

[quote="fuse"[/quote]That's a nice, erm, bike you got there. Is that you motoring around the farm?[/quote]

Yeah ... it's me but no farm ... reclaimed land across the street from our apartment building ... reserved for future development. My wife started the project 3 years ago ... when nobody was interested ... and now neighbors are fighting for a small plot.

We started hauling water in pails from the apartment ... too difficult ... bought a hose and hung it out the window ... easier yet still tiring ... finally bought the "donkey cart" in the picture, a water pump and portable battery ... now I go to the river for water ... just stand there and let the water pump do the work.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Wheat, potatoes, corn and peanuts in some quantity and a bunch of various other vegetables. Some local village people were impressed with my wife's efforts and offered their land to her for a token fee. Each family owns a single strip of land ... my wife rents from 4 families this year.

I figure we must be getting ready for a famine.

Wheat and Potatoes.JPG (161.87 KiB) Viewed 3470 times

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”