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nobody masters Zen. Bright and shiny religious leaders with special auras and perfume coming out of their anus are a dime a dozen. Doing the laundry, washing all that grime and blood and shit off your hands again and again..now there's some Zen.

nobody masters Zen. Bright and shiny religious leaders with special auras and perfume coming out of their anus are a dime a dozen. Doing the laundry, washing all that grime and blood and shit off your hands again and again..now there's some Zen.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Exactly! That's what I think. There is a lot of magical thinking that prevents people from seeing the fact that "Zen masters" are just regular folk.

Thank you, Mongen.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

nobody masters Zen. Bright and shiny religious leaders with special auras and perfume coming out of their anus are a dime a dozen. Doing the laundry, washing all that grime and blood and shit off your hands again and again..now there's some Zen.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

I thought all zen masters has perfume dispensing anuses (or ani for you Latin lovers)

I once saw an 80+ year old Nichiren monk weeding his garden in Lumbini. The care and attention he was paying was quite masterful. All I mean is that only because one should be careful not to hunt after idealised characters from a picture book, doesn't mean that my vanilla-sloth practise is on the same level as that of more dedicated practitioners.

I once saw an 80+ year old Nichiren monk weeding his garden in Lumbini. The care and attention he was paying was quite masterful. All I mean is that only because one should be careful not to hunt after idealised characters from a picture book, doesn't mean that my vanilla-sloth practise is on the same level as that of more dedicated practitioners.

Gassho and a wink,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

nobody masters Zen. Bright and shiny religious leaders with special auras and perfume coming out of their anus are a dime a dozen. Doing the laundry, washing all that grime and blood and shit off your hands again and again..now there's some Zen.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Hans.
Thank you indeed.

Gassho
Yugen

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Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

I agree. In my view, "master" is someone with some "mastery" in an art or tradition to pass on and pass down ... from carpentry to medicine to martial arts to Zen Buddhary. It need not mean the "master" is perfect, one can be a "master carpenter", yet not every corner will always be smooth; a "master surgeon" cannot cure every patient, and even the most gifted lifesaver of thousands may sometimes make a bad cut or deadly error. However, one should be pretty darn skilled in applying the art in life, and much more skilled and competent than those without the skills required. As in mastery in the martial arts, there is no technique for never being hit or never losing one's footing ... let alone for winning every battle ... there is no training offered on how to never fall, but rather, endless training on how to fall well. Show me the man or woman who encounters life's obstacles, sunny and rainy days, loops and losses, ups and downs ... all the mess and mayhem of Samsara ... who may be sometimes knocked sideways or down ... but who demonstrates how to be hit well and recover one's footing ... and I will show you a great Zen teacher.

One of the unfortunate aspects of religion is the tendency to put the leader or "guru" on a pedestal as being perfect, beyond any and all human failing ... always wise, never saying the wrong thing, always balanced and in control. The Lineage legends and Sutra story books tend to dip in gold and place on pedestals all our long dead ancestors, scrubbing them of every human failing. I think that unfortunate. Plenty of wannabe cult leaders are ready to play to such an image even now ... and plenty of "need a daddy to tell me what to do" students are ever willing to buy into it. That is a shame.

In fact, there are really no "Zen Teachers" ... for Zen cannot be taught. The "Teachers" are more like experienced "Dharma Friends" offering tips and coaching to help the seeker do all the heavy lifting ... and sitting ... on their own.

I think I will offer a "sit-a-long" talk tomorrow on this very topic, and recent scandals with a couple of Zen teachers in the news. Look for that tomorrow.

Oh, and by the way ... before I leave the topic ... do you know that a Zen Master is Buddha, beyond all error and mistake, one with the universe, always doing what is to be done in every situation, always speaking with a Buddha's tongue, never possibly to trip or fall, at total peace and harmony and wholeness with all this self-life-world? Do you know that Zen Masters are, in fact, Golden Buddhas and Perfect Jewels? It is true. I bullshit you not, I mean it in all seriousness.

However, so are you ... and all people ... and every mountain and tree and star! Each and All Buddha, Beyond Error and Mistake, totally at one piece and harmony and wholeness with the universe, all preaching with a Buddha's tongue, with no place possibly to fall etc. etc.

The Zen Master may simply realize (know and embody) that fact more than the average bloke ... and hopefully has some skill in helping her students realize such too in their lives.

One of the unfortunate aspects of religion is the tendency to put the leader or "guru" on a pedestal as being perfect, beyond any and all human failing ... always wise, never saying the wrong thing, always balanced and in control.

Yes, this is exactly how a lot of people think about Buddhist Masters. They tend to idealize them and fail to see the fact that they aren't living gods.

Thank you, Jundo

Gassho,

Kyonin

Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

By the way ... Buddhist Masters also have amazing mystical powers! It's True!

Here, for example, is my returning from the PAST ... and a sit-a-long talk from way back in 2009 ...

We now come to the Bodhisattva Virtue of ....

Miraculous, Mystical Powers (bala)

Mahayana sutras and lore refer to a variety of supernatural powers developed through meditation and Buddhist practice, said of aid to the Bodhisattva ... such as the ability to foretell the future, to see the past lives of beings, to read minds, to radiate light and to cause rain ... others too ...

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Taigen Dan Leighton writes ...

Buddhist attitude toward such powers has often been ambivalent, particularly in the Zen tradition, which emphasizes attention to ordinary, everyday activity. This outlook was epitomized in the legendary utterance by the great eighth-century Chinese adept, Layman Pang, that the ultimate super- natural power was chopping wood and carrying water. The ordinary world, just as it is, can be appreciated as an amazing, wondrous event. And experiences that seem supernatural and miraculous may only appear so to the limited portions of our mental and spiritual faculties that we conventionally employ.

Unfortunately, my amazing powers did not including fixing the sound and picture quality on Youtube back then.

Sure there is mastery and masters. I have mastered the craft of oil painting by working at it non-stop my whole life. That just means knowing the medium and the process inside-out.. it means working at it so long the handling becomes precise and intuitive. It doesn't mean being perfect and having nothing to learn. I'll always be a student. It does mean being able to speak and teach on oil painting with complete relaxed confidence, without hesitation. I also know I am not a Buddhist master, and feel embarrassed at even entertaining such a thought. ...but I am absorbing the teachings and determined, and do aspire ....not to achieve "mastery", but to practice every day until this process is well known down to the bones, inside-out. There is a long way to go, and I am grateful for masters who can help me. I am grateful for the mastery demonstrated by teachers here... and wouldn't be here if it wasn't demonstrated.

"Buddhist masters are very special people. They shine with a very bright light. And you are just like us."

Interesting--is she under the impression they are born that way? Maybe again this is the influence of the Dalai Lama/Tibetan Buddhism on the West. Since they "find" reborn Lamas, maybe she thinks that all traditions are that way?

Interesting--is she under the impression they are born that way? Maybe again this is the influence of the Dalai Lama/Tibetan Buddhism on the West. Since they "find" reborn Lamas, maybe she thinks that all traditions are that way?

Yes, like Jundo pointed out, people idealize spiritual teachers.

My aunt is very influenced not only by Tibetan Buddhism, but by no one else than Deepak Chopra.

Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

I guess it's inevitable that there is a hierachy in Zen - as in all of life. It's maybe harder to gauge - it's not like we sit an exam paper - or build
up credentials in a systematic way. I think with Zen it comes down to a matter of trust - does this person seem dependable, am I learning in a positive
manner from him/her? etc.

I do think it's important that 'certified' Zen teachers adhere to a written code of ethics, etc - perhaps Zen will need to go the way of other training organisations?

I'm not keen on the word 'master' - that's just a personal thing - I'm happy with 'teacher' - feels more user friendly and downplays the mystique that can get
attached Zen.

I'm with you on the master thing. I think that' just a cultural difference.

I like the style here. We come together in a very natural, friendly way. Jundo and Taigu aren't pushy, and are very open. They respond when they see crap posted, etc, and they help guide us. I really like this format. The only thing that concerns me is the inner circle, where they teach the secret ways of the force. I'm concerned about getting force choked, but I suppose it comes with the territory. lol

Funny sidenote: I love how the Buddhist books are always bundled in Eastern Religion, near the same section as new age. Oh what the hell, lump them all together. I hope one day we start seeing magic in that section as well...or perhaps we could use a book named "The zen of Harry Potter". that would sell. hahahhahha (ok I'm done with my sarcasm)

"Well you should focus on work, instead of playing the mystic". That was because I lead a very simple life and my family think I am the most mediocre man on Earth.

Kyonin

Mediocre: From Latin Mediocris, Medius: Middle. Then, Mediocre man = Man in the Middle Way... If your family thinks you are a mediocre man, then it is a great compliment

Thank you four your post Kyonin, they always make me think so much about my practice. I've always had admiration and respect for my teachers, and actually seeing their flaws or their "human side" drew me a little off balance.... now I understand that we are all, in the end, on the same level, in terms of dignity and need of respect, we are all equal..... it is just that some people put a greater care on what they do, not like me and my clumsy hands and mind

I can say that the same thing happens even without the robes, the incense, and the title "Master." Idealization happens very frequently in psychotherapy. Usually, the therapist makes a dumb mistake and the client begins to see that they're working with a regular fucked-up person. Failing that, they run into the therapist dressed in track pants at the 7-11 in the middle of the night buying a slushie. Everyone's better off.

nobody masters Zen. Bright and shiny religious leaders with special auras and perfume coming out of their anus are a dime a dozen. Doing the laundry, washing all that grime and blood and shit off your hands again and again..now there's some Zen.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Yes Hans thank you for this ... nice and clear and made me chuckle too

Gassho
Michael

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

RINDO SHINGEN
倫道 真現

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

When I was a young man, one of my first introductions to Buddhism and the Zen school was a Japanese style bound-book (Dew-drops on a Lotus Leaf) about Ryokan, the 18th-19th century priest/poet, who lived
a very simple life, spending a great deal of time with children; and in Japan he's beloved not only for his poetry and reverence for creatures, but also the comical vignettes which describe an aspect of his life, but which oft have a subtle profundity. Ryokan was not the zen master as described in the initial parts of this thread. And yet, appreciation of him and the memory of him will survive well beyond
many others.

The "master" subject always seems to swing between two extremes... infallible sage, and ordinary messed up person. No teacher is infallible, but a teacher, having received transmission, and stepping out to claim authority and represent a lineage, is hopefully not just an ordinary messed up person. Hopefully he/she has realized with some maturity and skill, the "great space nothing holy" around that ordinary messed-up humanness That is not ordinary. The shiny assed guru image and the screwed-up regular guy image, always show up in conversation together.

The "master" subject always seems to swing between two extremes... infallible sage, and ordinary messed up person. No teacher is infallible, but a teacher, having received transmission, and stepping out to claim authority and represent a lineage, is hopefully not just an ordinary messed up person. Hopefully he/she has realized with some maturity and skill, the "great space nothing holy" around that ordinary messed-up humanness That is not ordinary. The shiny assed guru image and the screwed-up regular guy image, always show up in conversation together.

The "master" subject always seems to swing between two extremes... infallible sage, and ordinary messed up person. No teacher is infallible, but a teacher, having received transmission, and stepping out to claim authority and represent a lineage, is hopefully not just an ordinary messed up person. Hopefully he/she has realized with some maturity and skill, the "great space nothing holy" around that ordinary messed-up humanness That is not ordinary. The shiny assed guru image and the screwed-up regular guy image, always show up in conversation together.

gassho.kojip

Thank you, Kojip. I should hope so too. It is not always the case, and there are some real "quacks" out there ... just as there are in any field, folks who are no more doctors or karate teachers or painters or musicians than that they own a scalpel, an easel, nunchacku or bought a violin, with no sense or how to wield the same with ease, balance, understanding and (in the case of the doctor or nunchaku numskull) without doing real harm to people. This fellow (who could be me with those things) seems to have a good sense of humor about his Bruce Leeness ...

There are also, unfortunately, those "masters" and teachers who may have mastered some aspects of this Practice ... and who may be gifted teachers ... but who are oafs, awful or (worse) abusive in other important areas. An example there might be the Eido Shimano's of the world who, as I understand, is a gifted teacher of Emptiness on the one hand ... a repeat sexual predator on the other.

Perhaps the most vocal writer these days on the overboard idealization of the Zen Roshi is Stuart Lachs, and all serious modern Zen students should have some familiarity with his writings on taking Roshis with a grain of salt. They are good. On the other hand, I think that Stuart Lachs himself goes overboard, tends to throw out the baby Buddha with the bath water and highlights only the most negative and extreme cases. So he needs to be taken with a bit of salt too.

Oh, and I said what I meant and meant what I said before, so wish to underline ...

... a Zen Master is Buddha, beyond all error and mistake, one with the universe, always doing what is to be done in every situation, always speaking with a Buddha's tongue, never possibly to trip or fall, at total peace and harmony and wholeness with all this self-life-world[.] Do you know that Zen Masters are, in fact, Golden Buddhas and Perfect Jewels[.] It is true. I bullshit you not, I mean it in all seriousness.

However, so are you ... and all people ... and every mountain and tree and star! Each and All Buddha, Beyond Error and Mistake, totally at one piece and harmony and wholeness with the universe, all preaching with a Buddha's tongue, with no place possibly to fall etc. etc.

The Zen Master may simply realize (know and embody) that fact more than the average bloke ... and hopefully has some skill in helping her students realize such too in their lives.

Fully aware of being ordinary, free to let Buddha nature play in his or her garden, the master doesn t own his or her mastery. Serving others, making the vow to save others before herself or himself, the master is a raft, a bridge for sentient beings. The mystical power is paying the bills, commuting and shopping.

But again the standard is to check how much he cares about freeing his students.

If the bloke makes financial, sexual or personnal demands, if he claims powers or extraordinary abilities, you better leave him at once.

"The Lineage legends and Sutra story books tend to dip in gold and place on pedestals all our long dead ancestors, scrubbing them of every human failing. I think that unfortunate. Plenty of wannabe cult leaders are ready to play to such an image even now ... and plenty of "need a daddy to tell me what to do" students are ever willing to buy into it. That is a shame. "
Thanks, thanks, thanks.
It seems to me many legends on the superpowers, including those of the Buddha, are metaphors, images which it is necessary to interpret simply (for example, in Brittany, we invent even saints to explain the presence of sources and fountains and give them an importance and the respect.)
Kosen

I read somewhere that a true master of any art can never recognize himself/herself as one. It is the fool that calls themselves "Master".

I rather disagree. I think it fine to think that one has attained a certain degree of mastery ... and fine to know something that need not be mastered or attained, for it is never measurable in degrees or graspable by the categorizing mind ... but it would be foolish to believe one ever to have total mastery. Samsara, this complex and changing life and world, does not allow for total mastery ever.

Rather like saying that one is a pretty good cook ... while also tasting that which never is hungry yet thoroughly nourishing ... yet recognizing the truth that one is always capable and likely to burn or undercook the odd meal.

I read somewhere that a true master of any art can never recognize himself/herself as one. It is the fool that calls themselves "Master".

Now just talking about painting here.... "Mastery" in an art or craft is no mystery. It is fair and square, and self-conscious doubt or "humilty" is no more a part of it than getting high and mighty. If in your craft you do not know absolutely when a skill is mastered, you are lost. Professional recognition follows, it does not lead. That does not mean you walk around saying "look at me I'm a master".. in fact the word "Master" doesn't occur, ....but if considered "has this craft been mastered?". There is an answer either way without hesitation. It's one of those "shit or get off the pot" things.

Gassho, kojip

Ed. just to give this post some context. Talking with young painters, one of the most common obstacles is a confusion of this topic with ego. There is a sense of "how dare I presume to know best". It can take years to get past that ego and get straight to "this eye". This eye, knows best, instantly. Thats all.

This is a great thread.... the notion of Mastery is a for me very humbling one..... to aspire to Mastery or even think that one has approached it in one's own discipline is to wander ever further away from the path.... on the other hand, to have a glimpse of the profound elegance and simplicity of unity with the universe and its elements, as expressed through practice or craftsmanship, as a martial artist, or woodworker, farmer, mechanic, or Zen practitioner......

A few expressions that allow me the glimpse of humility and unity....

"Wisdom begins with the acknowledgement of ignorance..." Socrates

"Perfection is attained not when there is no longer anything to add but no longer anything left to take away" Antoine De Saint Exupery, referring to the elegance and simplicity of airplane design

"I am an eternally deluded person - No one is as deluded as I am - I am deluded with gold trimmings - How clear this is to me when I do zazen!" Kodo Sawaki

"... there is nothing special about me, but what I have glimpsed is vastly important..." Masanobu Fukuoka (in The One Straw Revolution)

Mastery to me means the humility, or clarity, to glimpse the fundamental unity of all phenomena in the universe as manifested in our practice, whatever that practice is. That clarity is manifested in the elegance of technique - the tea service, the flowing performance of calligraphy, the stillness and presence of posture in zazen, like a mountain in its flowing magnificence, or the smooth effortless strokes of a drawknife working a piece of wood. And our technique varies from day to day in its expression and quality.

Most importantly, in my warped view, a "Master" can relinquish all knowledge in a particular discipline and "start over" .... because a Master knows intuitively how to learn, by watching mountains and trees.... once one becomes attached to defending one's corpus of work or knowledge, one becomes an advocate, a fixed position, contrary to the flowing nature of phenomena.

Gassho
Yugen

Last edited by Yugen; 08-28-2012 at 07:48 PM.

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Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

Kyonin,
It is I who must thank you and all my dharma sisters and brothers here at Treeleaf for teaching me and practicing with me. I could not do it without you.

Deep bows to you my friend

Yugen

Last edited by Yugen; 08-28-2012 at 11:39 PM.

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Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

Then, why is it people tend to think you have to be like a powerful wizard to study Buddhism?

In my experience, it is different. When I tell people I am Buddhist, people get the idea that it is simply a rejection of Christianity. Others think it is a personal statement of some kind with no real dedication. Most people I talk to about it don't even really know what Buddhism is.

Originally Posted by Kyonin

Aren't Buddhist masters just like any of us?

I don't know about that. If there was no difference between a master-- or someone simply more skillful-- and someone like me, then how would someone stand out as a master in the first place?

Originally Posted by Onken

I read somewhere that a true master of any art can never recognize himself/herself as one. It is the fool that calls themselves "Master".