i don't think there's anything necessarily inconsistent with what he said - he said let them go back to work, he didn't say give in to their demands. we are currently experiencing a lock-out, not a strike.

thomps:i don't think there's anything necessarily inconsistent with what he said - he said let them go back to work, he didn't say give in to their demands. we are currently experiencing a lock-out, not a strike.

If they end the lockout without a deal, we will see a strike. The refs have just been given a shift of power. Plus, since most of them have day jobs anyway, they really don't need the ref job...

IlGreven:thomps: i don't think there's anything necessarily inconsistent with what he said - he said let them go back to work, he didn't say give in to their demands. we are currently experiencing a lock-out, not a strike.

If they end the lockout without a deal, we will see a strike. The refs have just been given a shift of power. Plus, since most of them have day jobs anyway, they really don't need the ref job...

dletter:Am I wrong, or is that bad usage of the "not necessarily in that order" phrasing... if the emphasis is supposed to be on how much people love the Packers? He should have said "pancakes and Packers".

GAT_00:IlGreven: thomps: i don't think there's anything necessarily inconsistent with what he said - he said let them go back to work, he didn't say give in to their demands. we are currently experiencing a lock-out, not a strike.

If they end the lockout without a deal, we will see a strike. The refs have just been given a shift of power. Plus, since most of them have day jobs anyway, they really don't need the ref job...

As much as I agree, that might actually turn people against the refs.

They do it because they actually love it. There was a piece in SI (easily available online) that talked about what Hochuli and co. are doing while they're locked out. Turns out that Hochuli has organized weekly tests and conference call recaps to simulate what they'd be doing anyway. They're staying informed and they're staying sharp.

walker is a douchenozzle. the nfl is too. especially for locking out the refs over an amount that is essentially a rounding error for their multibillion dollar league that has a license to print money. just pay them already.

"The replacement refs are doing the best they can do out there, but the commissioner doesn't want this to sink to a World Wrestling Federation-type event on Sunday. They have to do something. It calls into question the integrity of the game."

Come on man. They've been the WWE for now long now? 10 years? The least you could do is refer to them by their proper name.

Dead for Tax Reasons:dletter: "If you were born and raised in Wisconsin, you were raised on the Packers," Erpenbach said. "Every Sunday it's Packers and pancakes, not necessarily in that order."

Am I wrong, or is that bad usage of the "not necessarily in that order" phrasing... if the emphasis is supposed to be on how much people love the Packers? He should have said "pancakes and Packers".

do the packers play at 8am?

No but it is a well known fact that Packer fans are drunkards and layabouts with no social skills so expecting them to just be waking up before a MNF game is a highly probable expectation. They also smell and like to smell their own butts.

Saiga410:Dead for Tax Reasons: dletter: ***snip***No but it is a well known fact that Packer fans are drunkards and layabouts with no social skills so expecting them to just be waking up before a MNF game is a highly probable expectation. They also smell and like to smell their own butts.

Hey now, that...well, that's not too far off on some Packers fans. I'm married, so if I smell, it's only until my wife makes me shower.

Saiga410:Dead for Tax Reasons: dletter: "If you were born and raised in Wisconsin, you were raised on the Packers," Erpenbach said. "Every Sunday it's Packers and pancakes, not necessarily in that order."

Am I wrong, or is that bad usage of the "not necessarily in that order" phrasing... if the emphasis is supposed to be on how much people love the Packers? He should have said "pancakes and Packers".

do the packers play at 8am?

No but it is a well known fact that Packer fans are drunkards and layabouts with no social skills so expecting them to just be waking up before a MNF game is a highly probable expectation. They also smell and like to smell their own butts.

Since I first heard the comments, I have been calling him the greatest super villain ever. Get elected, bash unions, support Packers, support unions, change no one's opinion of you or the government you are running.

//If R&R lose this year, look for Scott Walker on the next ballot. He is destined for Washington.

thomps:i don't think there's anything necessarily inconsistent with what he said - he said let them go back to work, he didn't say give in to their demands. we are currently experiencing a lock-out, not a strike.

What would be interesting is if they end the lockout, and the ref's strike, if the Players Union would cross the picket line.

I promise I don't have an axe to grind, and I have no interest in going out of my way to defend Scott Walker...but perhaps someone can explain to me the apparent inconsistency in his statements? Saying you want good refs to come back to the game you watch and love does not equal saying you value the importance of unions...it just says you value their importance as competent refs.

thomps:i don't think there's anything necessarily inconsistent with what he said - he said let them go back to work, he didn't say give in to their demands. we are currently experiencing a lock-out, not a strike.

Yeah, the "Walker is a hypocrite" commentary is all over the Internet today and it's pretty stupid. If there were no union, which Walker presumably would prefer, then individual refs could be taking or leaving the NFL's terms and coming back to work, and the rest could be fired.

kstofer:I promise I don't have an axe to grind, and I have no interest in going out of my way to defend Scott Walker...but perhaps someone can explain to me the apparent inconsistency in his statements? Saying you want good refs to come back to the game you watch and love does not equal saying you value the importance of unions...it just says you value their importance as competent refs.

If there wasn't a union, the locked out refs would all be fired, and all you'd have is these replacements. A union insures you can't just replace an entire workforce with cheap labor.

organizmx:kstofer: I promise I don't have an axe to grind, and I have no interest in going out of my way to defend Scott Walker...but perhaps someone can explain to me the apparent inconsistency in his statements? Saying you want good refs to come back to the game you watch and love does not equal saying you value the importance of unions...it just says you value their importance as competent refs.

If there wasn't a union, the locked out refs would all be fired, and all you'd have is these replacements. A union insures you can't just replace an entire workforce with cheap labor.

I'd argue the opposite...if there wasn't a union, we wouldn't have a lockout to begin with. The NFL would be able to hire and fire individual refs based on individual performance.

As long as the real refs aren't being paid with tax dollars and their union reps aren't negotiating with government officials they spent millions of dollars getting elected I don't see how this issue has anything to do with Walker's views one way or the other. Retarded lib talking point is as retarded as the potato refs.

keep in mind this is a lockout, not a strike, basically meaning this was initiated by the commissioner's office, and not the referees. I'm not sure if it is even possible, but I imagine if he could, Walker would lockout teachers because he thinks they should be making 30k or less. That would be amazing!

persyus:Soooo.... why is everyone blaming the NFL and no one asking what the Ref's demands are and if they are reasonable?

Oh please. The way the scabs are performing, the union could demand a million bucks a person and the right to ride a train on Gisele Bündchen anytime, anywhere, and they'd still be in the right on this.

They're willfully ignoring the difference so they can make this ridiculous talking point that has no basis in reality. Did you see how much they fellated subby in the other thread about this? The refs aren't paid with tax dollars and they're negotiating with the NFL (private company) not politicians the they spent a shiat load on to get elected. Apples and oranges.

DKinMN:I see we aren't making a distinction between public and private sector unions on the Internet today.

After Walker kisses Henricks, she asks: "Any chance we'll ever get to be a completely red state and work on these unions?"

"Oh, yeah!" says Walker.

Henricks then asks: "And become a right-to-work [state]?"

Walker replies: "Well, we're going to start in a couple weeks with our budget adjustment bill. The first step is we're going to deal with collective bargaining for all public employee unions, because you use divide and conquer.... That opens the door once we do that."

MoeSzyslak:BGates: Learn the difference between public and private unions.

They're willfully ignoring the difference so they can make this ridiculous talking point that has no basis in reality. Did you see how much they fellated subby in the other thread about this? The refs aren't paid with tax dollars and they're negotiating with the NFL (private company) not politicians the they spent a shiat load on to get elected. Apples and oranges.

To steal from another poster in a politics thread:

Unions giving to politicians should be illegal because politicians then have to neogotiate with the unions on contracts.But corporations doing business with the government or being regulated by the government should be able to give unlimited money in secret with no oversight and no public disclosure and even give money from overseas

organizmx:Got it. Public unions protecting teachers making $50k a year = bad. Private unions protecting refs making $160k a year = good.

Thank you all for clearing that up.

1. What is the average salary of the Chicago teachers who recently went on strike?2. Were they offered a raise before they went on strike?3. What was their take on merit based accountability where good teachers are rewarded and under performing teachers are let go?4. Should unions who are payed with tax dollars just automatically be given whatever they ask for because unions are wicked farking awesome?

organizmx:MoeSzyslak: BGates: Learn the difference between public and private unions.

They're willfully ignoring the difference so they can make this ridiculous talking point that has no basis in reality. Did you see how much they fellated subby in the other thread about this? The refs aren't paid with tax dollars and they're negotiating with the NFL (private company) not politicians the they spent a shiat load on to get elected. Apples and oranges.

To steal from another poster in a politics thread:

Unions giving to politicians should be illegal because politicians then have to neogotiate with the unions on contracts.But corporations doing business with the government or being regulated by the government should be able to give unlimited money in secret with no oversight and no public disclosure and even give money from overseas

Both are conflicts of interest and both should be changed but what exactly does any of that have to do with a private union negotiating with a private company as is the case here?

MoeSzyslak:organizmx: Got it. Public unions protecting teachers making $50k a year = bad. Private unions protecting refs making $160k a year = good.

Thank you all for clearing that up.

1. What is the average salary of the Chicago teachers who recently went on strike?2. Were they offered a raise before they went on strike?3. What was their take on merit based accountability where good teachers are rewarded and under performing teachers are let go?4. Should unions who are payed with tax dollars just automatically be given whatever they ask for because unions are wicked farking awesome?

Good questions that I don't know the answer to. I'm actually not familiar with what was going on in Chicago (just to be honest), but we've been dealing with our fair share of education struggles here in New Jersey, which is what I had in my head when I made that statement.

New Jersey has one of the strongest teachers' unions in the country, and because of that, its a job that pays well, and its a highly respected, and highly desirable career to have. As a result, New Jersey's public schools consistently rank amongst the best in the country, and we have, as a state, the lowest drop out rate in the nation. (North Carolina, as an example, as no teacher's union, starting pay is about half of what it is in NJ, they struggle to find qualified teachers to take jobs, and the drop out rate in the state is about 50%).

My point? Well public schools are under attack here too, by politicians and wealthier members of the private sector who want to start privatizing education on tax payer dollars. Right now, the teachers union in New Jersey is needed more than ever. I was referring more to what was happening in this state - I don't know much about the details of Chicago.

Merit pay is a whole other issue. Would we judge cops like this also? Should cops in cities with high crime be considering "failing" police officers, while cops in mostly safe, affluent suburbs be considered "successful" police officers? Should cops in inner cities be paid substantially less if the crime rates go up in their areas? No? Then why would this apply to teachers? Why should a teacher in a mostly wealthy suburb be considered a success, while a teacher who has to work twice as hard to get kids to do half as much in an inner city be considered a failure and get paid less. It makes no sense.

And no, I don't think unions should be allowed to do whatever they want. They shouldn't be disbarred completely either. Wether public or private. They play an incredibly important role in making sure the working class in America has a fare shot against people with a lot more power and influence. It helps level the playing field for the average joe. It also makes no sense to be AGAINST public unions for teachers, but be FOR public unions for cops and firefighters, as Walker is.

Sorry sports fans - this really belongs in the politics tab - but then again I guess this entire thread does.

MoeSzyslak:organizmx: MoeSzyslak: BGates: Learn the difference between public and private unions.

They're willfully ignoring the difference so they can make this ridiculous talking point that has no basis in reality. Did you see how much they fellated subby in the other thread about this? The refs aren't paid with tax dollars and they're negotiating with the NFL (private company) not politicians the they spent a shiat load on to get elected. Apples and oranges.

To steal from another poster in a politics thread:

Unions giving to politicians should be illegal because politicians then have to neogotiate with the unions on contracts.But corporations doing business with the government or being regulated by the government should be able to give unlimited money in secret with no oversight and no public disclosure and even give money from overseas

Both are conflicts of interest and both should be changed but what exactly does any of that have to do with a private union negotiating with a private company as is the case here?

My point is, if you support the right for labor to organize, what difference should it make if its public or private? Walker supports private labor unions, and SOME public labor unions (cops, firefighters). Meaning he supports unions when its in line with his politics (and football team).