Our conversation with HaRav Dan Ungarischer, rosh yeshivas
Beis Medrash Elyon in Monsey recaptured the atmosphere of
worlds that have long since passed. We met to discuss the
life and heritage of HaRav Reuvein Grozovsky zt'l, who
was the son-in-law to Rav Boruch Ber Leibowitz zt'l,
rosh yeshivas Kamenitz and father-in-law of ylct'a,
HaRav Ungarischer. Drawing upon the rich resources of an
elderly talmid chochom but with vitality and vigor
that belie his years, Rav Dan consented to our request that
he tell us something about his illustrious father-in-law, who
was one of the leading Torah leaders and builders of Torah in
postwar America.

Rav Dan first gave us some idea of the importance that he
attaches to perpetuating Rav Grozovsky's heritage. When his
family was preparing publication of Ba'ayos Hazman, a
volume of Reb Reuvein's articles dealing with contemporary
issues, they wanted to include an account of his life.

"It was suggested," Rav Dan related, "that we approach his
friend and childhood companion, HaRav Yaakov Kamenetsky
zt'l, so that he could tell us some of his memories of
my father-in-law. We called his home and after asking his
pardon, told him what we wanted. As soon as he heard that it
was about Reb Yaakov said emotionally, 'Come to my house
right now; it's a huge obligation and a great mitzvah to tell
the life story of the gaon Rav Reuvein
zt'l!'

"When we arrived, he greeted us as though he'd just been
sitting and waiting for us. Reb Yaakov's memory was virtually
perfect. He was the source of much of what I am going to tell
you now."

Mentor and Friend: Between Minsk and
Slobodka

YN: What was Reb Reuvein's background?

Rav Ungarischer: My father-in-law was born in Minsk,
the city where Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, Rav Aharon Kotler
zt'l, and many other gedolei Yisroel were also
from. His father was Rav Shimshon, the dayan of Minsk,
who was a very influential figure. He had a kloiz
called Zivchei Tzedek, where the best bochurim
in Minsk came to learn. Because he was the dayan's
son and was also a bit older than the others, he was the
leader of the group.

One of the group was a youngster named Aharon Kotler. He was
a tremendous genius, who had lost both his parents. As a
young bochur, my father-in-law worked on him to go and
learn in Slobodka, where his abilities would find expression
in gemora study. Due to his standing, his influence
was effective and he saved Reb Aharon from taking a different
path in life. Had things run their natural course without my
father-in-law's intervention, we would have lost Reb Aharon
the Torah sage. I heard this from Reb Aharon himself.

My father-in-law acted as a shield, protecting the other
members of the group from the influences of the Bund and the
Zionist movements by persuading them to travel to Slobodka as
well. Many of them developed into gedolei Torah.

YN: And he didn't go himself?

Rav Ungarischer: In the end, when only a few
bochurim were left, he accompanied them to Slobodka.
But even while he was learning there, when he came home for
Yomim Tovim, he would gather the youngsters and
persuade them to come with him to Slobodka.

He had an extraordinary reputation among the Slobodka
bochurim. The father of HaRav Aviezer Piltz relates
that he was the leading bochur and the one whom all
the others consulted. The bnei hayeshiva would cluster
around him, wanting to speak with him in learning. This would
go on until the small hours of the night. Rav Piltz was his
roommate in their lodgings in the home of one of the local
householders.

Reb Reuvein returned late at night from the yeshiva and they
didn't want to disturb their host. They therefore arranged
that each night when Reb Reuvein returned, Rav Piltz would
get up to open the door for him, in return for which the next
day, Reb Reuvein would repeat all the discussion that had
taken place in the beis hamedrash the previous night.
He was already a leader as a bochur in Slobodka.

Youthful Leader: Dispersal and Gathering

There followed a period when he had to bolster Yeshivas Mir.
The Alter of Slobodka saw it was necessary to send a group of
his finest bochurim to strengthen the yeshiva. Reb
Reuvein was the leader of the group.

YN: How long was he in Mir?

Rav Ungarischer: They returned to Slobodka after a
short while. Reb Yaakov told me that when the First World War
broke out and signs of the fighting started showing
themselves in Slobodka, a group of approximately fifty
bochurim from Minsk, who were among the finest in the
yeshiva, decided to return home for fear of the fighting. Reb
Reuvein was one of the group.

Within a week of their arrival, a letter from the rosh
yeshiva, HaRav Moshe Mordechai Epstein zt'l, arrived,
addressed to Reb Reuvein, asking him to find somewhere in
Minsk that would be suitable for delivering shiurim.
Reb Reuvein immediately started talking to the Minsker
baalei batim, who found him the Tatarishe Kloiz, that
fit the purpose. Reb Moshe Mordechai paid Minsk a visit.

I remember Reb Yaakov relating that the first time was
Shabbos parshas Shofetim, when the words "Tzedek
tzedek tirdof' are read. World renowned gedolim
learned in that yeshiva, such as HaRav Avraham Grodzensky
zt'l, Hy'd, and other gedolim who came to Minsk
because of the war, such as Rav Chaim Brisker zt'l
were also influential there.

YN: Was Minsk safe from the war?

Rav Ungarischer: This state of affairs continued for
some time, until rumors started that the warring armies were
approaching Minsk too. The bochurim of the Minsk
yeshiva then split into two groups. One fled to Germany and
the other, to Russia. My father-in-law didn't want to return
to Czarist-Bolshevik Russia so he went to Germany.

Some time later, when the atmosphere was calmer, he received
another letter from Reb Moshe Mordechai saying that since
things were quieter, he wanted to reopen the yeshiva in
Slobodka and have everyone gather there. Since Slobodka was
still under German control though, the Rosh Yeshiva wanted
Reb Reuvein to ask Rav Yosef Carlebach, who was on good terms
with the German authorities, to intercede with the German
general and obtain his permission to reopen the yeshiva in
Slobodka.

Reb Reuvein did so. He asked Rav Carlebach to take action and
he, in his great wisdom, obtained the desired permit. At
first, he gathered the bochurim together in Kovno and
later joined the Slobodka yeshiva, which had already reopened
in the town of Kremenchug under Reb Moshe Mordechai's
leadership. These were the two occasions when he had the
opportunity of carrying out Reb Moshe Mordechai's wishes:
when the yeshiva first convened in Minsk during the war and
afterwards in Slobodka, when the war had died down.

With Rav Boruch Ber: Vilna and Kamenitz

YN: At what point did he become Reb Boruch Ber's son-
in- law?

Rav Ungarischer: After the war, word went around the
yeshiva that Reb Boruch Ber Leibowitz zt'l, who was
living in Kremenchug, wanted to take Reb Reuvein as a husband
for his daughter because of his reputation in understanding
and toiling in Torah. An incident took place just before his
wedding that illustrates his greatness.

Word suddenly arrived that his father, the dayan Rav
Shimshon, had passed away. When the news reached the Alter of
Slobodka he was afraid that it might lead Reb Reuvein to
travel to Minsk, which would involve the loss of a great deal
of his time from learning. The Alter gave instructions that
Reb Reuvein not be told, so that he should not stop learning
during the period of mourning. The Alter explained that the
mourning consisted of saying Kaddish to elevate the
soul of the deceased but, as he put it, "Reb Reuvein says
Kaddish all day long." In other words, the power of
the Torah that he learned and spent all day and night
thinking about and the elevation that it brought his father's
soul, was the equivalent of saying Kaddish numerous
times.

YN: As far as is known, did Reb Reuvein deliver a
shiur in Kamenitz?

Rav Ungarischer: Yes. Straight after his marriage, he
became his father-in-law's right hand man. Reb Boruch Ber's
admiration for his son-in-law was so great that he referred
to him as "Der yunger Or Samei'ach (the junior Or
Samei'ach)."

Some time afterwards, Reb Boruch Ber moved to Vilna to
rebuild Yeshivas Knesses Beis Yitzchok that had disbanded
during the war. This was after Lithuania's partition into
three sections. Kremenchug was in the Russian sector and
under no circumstances did Reb Boruch Ber want to remain in
Russia, which was renowned for its cruelty and great
wickedness.

In Vilna, my father-in-law served as a maggid shiur
alongside Reb Boruch Ber who was the rosh yeshiva. Later,
when the yeshiva moved to its premises in Kamenitz, my father-
in-law was most involved in running the yeshiva. He
accompanied Reb Boruch Ber on his famous trip to America to
save the yeshiva. He himself once told me that there had been
a time when everyone flocked to Reb Shimon Shkop's yeshiva in
Grodno and that when Kamenitz grew stronger, it became a
lodestone for hundreds of bochurim.

YN: How did he get to America?

Rav Ungarischer: After the Soviet authorities gained
control of the Torah institutions, rabbonim and activists in
America undertook to facilitate the emigration of rabbonim
and gedolei Torah from Eastern Europe to the United
States. That is how my father-in-law Reb Reuvein, Rav Aharon
Kotler, Rav Mendel Zaks zt'l, and other talmidei
chachomim found their way to the United States. It was
Hashem's will that they should illuminate that continent with
the light of their Torah.

They escaped from Russia via Japan. His devotion to rescue
work was already apparent there. Upon arriving in Japan,
depressed and broken both in health and spirit, the doctors
immediately ordered him to force himself to rest but he
didn't relax for a moment. He worked energetically to rescue
bnei Torah from the Russian exile in any way
possible.

Rescue and Relief: from the Far East to
America

This continued after his arrival in the United States, when
he began his work for Vaad Hatzolah, part of whose activities
involved rescuing the bnei hayeshivos who were
refugees still in Russia, or in Shanghai in China. Ignoring
everything else, he traveled all over the United States in
order to raise money and resources to save the Torah world.
Many talmidim remember the letters of encouragement
and the packages of food and clothes that he sent them to
Siberia, which revived them and literally preserved their
lives.

His communal work was carried out with great self-sacrifice.
In later years he related that at that time he was offered a
position at the head of a large mesivta in New York
but as he put it, "I withstood the temptation."

He was not diverted for a moment from working for the rescue
of the Torah world. He used to say that our outlook differs
from that of the Jewish leaders who sit tranquilly in their
ivory towers and feel "concerned" about the people's welfare.
We maintain that there can be no peace of mind when engaging
in communal work and that one ought to do so "dressed in
shrouds" from the dread of carrying responsibility for a
public and the consequences of "murder" [by neglect]. In
fact, one should worry and feel the pain of the community to
the point where it makes one ill.

In this connection, he would cite the incident with the Beis
Halevi who, when the opinion he expressed at one of the
rabbinical meetings in St. Petersburg was not accepted,
actually became sick over it.

When my mother-in-law, the righteous rebbetzin and Rav
Boruch Ber's daughter, passed away he could not be comforted.
He mourned deeply and hardly spoke to the people who came to
comfort him. However, when R' Dr. Yitzchok Lewin, the
chairman of Agudas Yisroel's executive council, who had just
returned from an important trip to Eretz Yisroel came in, Reb
Reuvein listened carefully to every detail of the state of
religious affairs in the Holy Land.

His role in the leadership of Vaad Hatzolah was also
outstanding at this time. He took a stand against the Nazis'
genocidal campaign, directing the rescue work from a Torah
viewpoint and engaging in daring projects that displeased the
(secular) Jewish political leaders. He used to say that
communal affairs should be handled [with full concentration
and deliberation,] in the same way that one learns a deep
sugya in Shas. And in fact, he would adduce
support from the rulings of Chazal and of the subsequent
great poskim in arriving at decisions on the issues
that cropped up.

Pioneer of Torah Outlook: Respected by
All

YN: Did he have a particular approach to Torah
outlook, that is apparent in Ba'ayos Hazman?

Rav Ungarischer: He fought Hashem's battles. He served
as chairman of the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah and under his
leadership, the Agudah waged several campaigns. For example,
they involved in the struggle against the forced apostasy in
Eretz Yisroel of the Yaldei Teiman and the Yaldei
Teheran. He was out in the front and all the others
followed him.

At that time, the Israeli Prime Minister, Ben Gurion, was in
the United States and it was decided that a delegation of
Agudah leaders would pay him a visit in order to express
their concern over the secular coercion in the Holy Land.

He fasted the day before the meeting and he spent the entire
night before it discussing with each of the members of the
delegation exactly what should be said there. After that, he
recited Tehillim tearfully for several hours and then
he prepared to go to the meeting after arranging for some
bochurim to say Tehillim. He came to the
meeting without having broken his fast.

Such was his dedication to communal work and at a time, too,
when there were difficulties in his own home. He didn't pay
them any attention but sacrificed himself for the communal
good.

Once a large demonstration was held in America and the Satmar
chassidim asked their Rebbe zt'l whether they
should attend. The Rebbe told them, "When the gaon Rav
Reuvein finishes speaking, leave."

Speaking to the talmidim of Torah Vodaas before the
demonstration, Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky first mentioned that
they could attend and then remarked, "Now we're going to hear
a shiur from the gaon Rav Reuvein."

On the same subject, Rabbi Lobenstein of Agudas Yisroel in
London told me that the Agudah once discussed formulating a
position paper regarding the State of Israel. One of the
activists got up and said, "We already have a manifesto
— Rav Reuvein Grozovsky's sefer, Ba'ayos
Hazman." Someone else (who had compromising leanings)
stood up and said, "It's already out of date." Now we can see
just how relevant it is even today.

Builder of Torah: Between New York and
Monsey

YN: Where did he serve as rosh yeshiva upon arriving
in America?

Rav Ungarischer: Torah Vodaas was the only yeshiva in
the United States at that time. At the suggestion of Rav
Chaim Ozer Grodzensky zt'l, Rav Shraga Feivel
Mendelowitz zt'l, brought my teacher and rebbe
Rav Sholom Heiman zt'l, to serve as rosh yeshiva. He
brought the light of Torah to America and breathed life into
the spiritual desolation. He passed away towards the end of
the World War and my father-in-law Reb Reuvein was asked to
replace him as rosh yeshiva. At this point, the story of Beis
Medrash Elyon of Monsey also started.

YN: What is the story of Beis Medrash Elyon?

Rav Ungarischer: Around that time, Rav Shraga Feivel
had acquired an empty building in the town of Monsey, which
was then an out-of-the-way townlet surrounded by virgin
forest and without any Jews. He put together a group of the
best students in Torah Vodaas and they formed the nucleus of
Beis Medrash Elyon. The calm rural atmosphere helped them
concentrate on their learning and develop in Torah, with Reb
Reuvein presiding over them. He divided his time between the
two yeshivos, spending the weekdays in Torah Vodaas and
Shabbos in Monsey.

It's worthwhile retelling the story of how Rav Feivel
purchased the building that was originally built by a wealthy
gentile, the owner of a large estate. He had wanted to build
himself a beautiful palace, for which purpose he chose the
highest hill in the area where the air was pleasant and the
view breathtaking. When he grew old and felt that he was
approaching the end of his life, he grew concerned over the
building's fate after him. No ordinary person would buy
themselves a house so far from human habitation. He imagined
that it would probably be turned into a hotel and that the
guests would probably be "wealthy American Jews." That was
something that he didn't want under any circumstances. He
therefore drew up a legally binding will that specified that
the building was to be used solely as a school.

YN: He never imagined that it would be used as a Torah
school!

Rav Ungarischer: In fact, during the War the house was
used by a military academy for soldiers. It was vacated when
the war ended and it stood empty for a long time. Reb Feivel
somehow found out about the building that was for sale and
managed to purchase it for use as a Torah school. When the
sons of the original owner found this out, they opposed the
sale on the grounds that it contradicted "the spirit of the
will" but Reb Feivel's position was stronger.

The posuk, "Many are the thoughts in a man's heart but
Hashem's counsel prevails" (Mishlei 19:21) was thus
fulfilled and the place became a great Torah center. The best
talmidim in Torah Vodaas would come to Beis Medrash
Elyon and there the place had a tremendous atmosphere of
progress and elevation in Torah. It was a real sight to see
the Rosh Yeshiva arrive at the week's end, walking along the
forested path at the edge of the yeshiva building, engaged in
a heated discussion of a sugya. It was also his habit
to convey mussar instruction and the talmidim
who listened to him gained fine reputations.

Rav Moshe Bick zt'l once remarked that he knew of no
other place that taught Torah and yirah to equal Beis
Medrash Elyon in Monsey. Devout Jews began settling in the
yeshiva's vicinity and the town's reputation spread far and
wide.

My teacher and father-in-law, our master Rav Reuvein was thus
one of the foundation stones of spiritual rebirth in America
and Beis Medrash Elyon was one of the foundations of the
building of communities of Torah and yirah in
America.

Beis Medrash Elyon of Monsey

The Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Dan, has been carrying the burden of
the yeshiva's support ever since his father-in-law fell ill.
He then acceded to Reb Reuvein's request that he take his
place in delivering shiurim and directing the yeshiva.
Since then, hundreds of talmidim have passed through
the yeshiva, having been trained in comprehending Torah.

Reb Reuvein attended the first shiur that Rav Dan
delivered in the yeshiva as a mark of his esteem. In his
writings he also discussed his son-in-law's ideas. Reb
Reuvein spent the last years of his life as a guest in the
home of the son-in-law to whom he was so close.

Besides running the yeshiva, Rav Dan has also worked to
publish Rav Reuvein's Torah writings and works. These have
appeared in the three volumes of Chiddushei Rebbi
Reuvein, which have found their place in botei
medrash everywhere.

Adjacent to the old yeshiva building (the story of whose
purchase is told at the end of this interview) a fine new
building has been erected. The renovation and redecoration of
the old building has also been completed, adding to the
splendor of this great Torah edifice

Beis Medrash Elyon of Eretz Yisroel

At the celebrations marking the laying of the cornerstone for
Beis Medrash Elyon's yeshiva building in Bnei Brak, Rav Dan
Ungarischer observed that it represented putting down roots
in Eretz Yisroel. The yeshiva, which is headed by his son Rav
Yerachmiel Ungarischer, already has a reputation for its
superlative chinuch in Torah and yiras
Shomayim. There is also an element of something having
come full circle. The sacrifice of Reb Reuvein, who founded
the yeshiva in America, on behalf of the Torah world in
general and for the Torah community in Eretz Yisroel in
particular, truly represents the seed from which the yeshiva
in Bnei Brak has developed.

Something that Rev Reuvein himself said at the reception that
was held for Yeshivas Kamenitz in Rasein can be applied to
the more recent event: " `And all who seek Hashem' (Shemos
33:7) — these are the talmidei chachomim who
go from town to town and from place to place (Brochos
63). About them it is said, `and I shall make a place for
My people Yisroel and I shall plant them' — all the
nations are planted in their lands and we are planted in
Hashem and in His Torah, in every place."

Ba'ayos Hazman: Formulating Our Stand

"Your prophets, Yisroel, were like foxes among the ruins
[that run away as soon as anyone approaches]. You did not go
up to stand in the breaches and repair the fence around
Beis Yisroel [to enable them] to stand up in battle .
. ." (Yechezkel 1:4-5).

Rav Reuvein quotes these pesukim in his essay about
the duties of rabbonim. He had their message in mind when
attempting to repair some of the breaches in the wall
protecting Torah Jewry by clarifying Torah outlook and
explaining the battle being fought against the betrayers of
our nation's mission. The result is this collection of
articles about our times and their problems that are set out,
as Rav Reuvein put it, "like an orderly sugya dealing
with communal issues."

Different Times, Different Places

He sees our generation's central issue as the battle over
"public life" that has been waged against traitorous elements
since the days of the Haskalah, centering upon the
question of who will hold the reins of leadership. "Satan
modifies his ways according to the time and the place. In
Russia [his tactic was] by bearing slander to the Czar; in
Hungary [he acted] through ministers and elected
representatives; in the Eastern lands through sending money
to the masses; in America through either democracy or
bureaucracy, for where the Torah observant are concerned, all
the fundamental rules are forgotten."

Heretical ideologies also shift and change 'like the hyena
that becomes a bat after seven years, then a vampire, then a
thistle, then a thorn" (Bava Kama 16). Enlightenment
begat assimilation, which was followed by nationalism and
socialism and finally Zionism. Gedolei Yisroel opposed
this last one because "they saw it as outdoing even Reform,
with its assertion that we are not a people of the Torah but
a national entity." The main aim was to instate the leaders
of the secular national idea as the nation's leaders. The
Torah leaders foresaw that with the establishment of a state
governed by deniers of G-d, they would certainly force all
those under their control to abandon religion, especially
those whose livelihoods and living conditions they
controlled.

Rev Reuvein mocked the State's achievements with regard to
national security since "we could have attained material
wellbeing through denying Hashem in most of the lands of our
exile and even in the [time and] lands of the
Inquisition."

After noting the battle over public leadership, Reb Reuvein
makes a compelling case for the establishment of Agudas
Yisroel in general and in America in particular. He lists six
organizational aims that the Agudah ought to set itself, all
of which arise from the stated objective of "trying to put
those who uphold Torah in control."

To Join or Not to Join?

In the chapter dealing with the de facto establishment
of the State of Israel and its governing institutions, he
presents the differing viewpoints, knowingly passing over the
shailah of whether to say Hallel or
Selichos (as he puts it) over its establishment. After
presenting the two views in amazing detail, he directs some
open criticism to our own camp, not to turn these differences
of opinion into an internal fight. "Now is not the time to
conduct arguments among those who believe in Hashem and His
Torah, when all of us are under attack from those who hate
Hashem."

This zealous spokesman for Hashem's word then sums up: "Of
those whose only conflict is over how to understand the
situation, it is certainly said, `They loved the truth and
the peace' (Zecharya 8:19). However, even when we
suspect a person of not acting from pure motivation and of
veering from Torah's path, though we are obliged to rebuke
him our words should be spoken gently, so that he accepts
them from us!"

Reb Reuvein's discussion of the topic of allying oneself with
evildoers is arranged with the penetrating halachic analysis
of a shiur. What is the difference between joining
together with evildoers and engaging in outreach, even to
evildoers? "Rav Moshe Almosnino writes in Medrash Shmuel
perek 1 that the prohibition is for a good person to join
an evil one. If however, the evildoer is secondary and it is
he who aligns himself with the good person, then it is
correct to accept him in case he returns to the path of
good."

Regarding love for other members of Klal Yisroel,
Chazal's advice to "love all men and hate heretics" is known.
Although a heretic is a full Jew with regard to marriage and
divorce, the Tur (Yoreh Dei'ah siman 268)
distinguishes between the laws that determine others'
obligation to keep away from him and his own obligations
towards himself.

The truth is "that my teacher and father-in-law . . . Rav
Boruch Ber Leibowitz said that the great hatred borne towards
an evildoer stems from great love for, and brotherhood with,
him and from great distress over the fact that a brother Jew
is defiling his soul."

After discussing the severity of the prohibition against
joining forces with evildoers, he raises the issue of
participation in the Israeli government on the tactical basis
of "gifts and battle" [as Yaakov Ovinu did when he prepared
to meet Eisov]. He finds this sufficient grounds to permit it
but with the precondition that it is done "out of utter
compulsion, so as not to derive benefit from something
forbidden, like Yael and Queen Esther in their day."

At the end of the chapter he returns to the two approaches
one of ruling out and the other of allowing participation in
the government. He discusses how the campaign against those
who betray our heritage ought to be waged jointly, rather
than conducting an internal conflict (noting inter
alia that, "comparing one issue to another is a type of
halachic ruling that is the province of the Sages" —
which has obvious ramifications).

Although these demarcation lines were drawn up decades ago,
they continue to radiate light in our own times. Other essays
in the collection deal with Keeping Shabbos, The Laws of
Chinuch, Torah Study, the obligation of Modesty and other
points of outlook. They are all outstanding for their
analysis.