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Theories about Mainland.

So far the Mainland has been only mentioned and described by Miria and Rubel ( if briefly ). I am sure that everyone has their own theories about Mainland and I would want to see other people opinions on this subject. What are your theories about Mainland? How do you imagine it?

Let us first start what we know about Mainland:
-It is another continent, larger than Claymore Island.
-Long time ago there were many nations out there, but until 100 years ago only two sides remained and started battle for supremacy.
-One side has DoD’s on their side.
-Other side is creating monsters to change the course of battle.
-The other side that is creating monsters is using Claymore Island and Claymores themselves as part of top secret experiment in order to create their own race of super warrior being s and defeat the DoD’s side. They are even using island’s Human population in their experiments.

Now the way I see it Mainland is another continent that is in size much larger than Claymore Island. In size I think that Claymore Island is not that small island, average Human walking speed is 5km/h ( 120km/day ) and Helen herself said that they would need about 20 days walking from Organization HQ to Holy City of Rabona. Being that Rabona is on the center of island that would bring about 40 to 45 days from reaching from one side of island to another, which brings around 4800km to 5400km from one end of island to another – which is freaking huge considering that number is probably the same for other two parts of island ( take a note that from Perth WA to Sydney there is 3.940km, and that is from one side of Australia to another. Meaning that Claymore island is little bigger than Australia, and Australia alone is covering 8.468.300km2 ). So I would assume that compering Claymore Island and Mainland is similar to comparing Australia with Asia. One more notice: Claymore Island is probably located somewhere in northern hemisphere of Claymore world as northern part of the island is always covered in snow, which is characteristic for places located further north like Canada or Russia that have their northern parts always covered in ice and snow but central and south parts much warmer and filled with vegetation and wild life.

Now let us look at Mainland situation, from what I have been able to conclude from Miria’s story is next: once there were many nation states on Mainland, but as time passed nations made alliances. And about 100 years ago on entire Mainland only two nations, two big alliances left. And in a world where you have two big superpowers ( Good example would be Axis and Allies during Second World War or NATO and Warsaw Pact during Cold War ) you will always have a war for supremacy in which the victor claim the entire world for themselves. It is logical that the only reason why war is lasting for that long is that the prize for victor is world domination, and that is always powerful motivator for either side to not back down at all. But even this is open for discussion. This brings us to next crucial questions:

-What could be reason that after 100 years no side considered to start peace talks?

-If one side have DoD’s as their allies how is possible that they failed to annihilate the other side even if they had initial success with Dragons?

For first question I simply don’t have a right answer, it could be anything even world domination motivator as I previously said. But seeing how Organization can manipulate their own warriors and Humans who is to say that they cannot use same methods + extensive propaganda to control their people and inspire them to continue their war for supremacy? Only that would explain why war lasted for so long without people themselves wanting to end it. War like that with army’s and battle witch Miria described must have casualties in millions, not to mention the destruction of the land and cities. As for second question the only logical thing I can think of is this simple one: Other side cannot control Dragons as much as Organization cannot control Awakened Beings. That is probably the right answer, because if the other side would be in 100% control of Descendants of Dragons they would probably totally annihilate the other side a long time ago. That idea came to my mind when I saw DoD and Askaram in that hidden part of Organization base in Chapter 126. DoD was tied up and he had appearance similar to Awakened Being, which must mean that they are probably similar to them. And if that is true that they should be also hard to control, same as Awakened Beings when they awakened and start destroying everything around themselves. The Organization side probably captured some Askaram and DoD’s and use them to made their own versions of monstrous creatures – but using Humans instead of Askaram. All this probably happened little before they decided to start their experiments on Claymore Island, if data which certain members from this forum provided is true ( that one regular year probably spawn two generations of Claymores ) than we can safely assume that experimentations on Claymore island started some 30 years after war started on Mainland ( 150 Generations of Claymores would cover around 70 years if the data is correct ).

All of those so far were reference on what we know and what could the present situation on the Mainland be, now for my personal theory about Mainland:
First thing I noticed is that the world where Claymores live is not our Earth, island that big and with that unique shape does not exist on our planet. Furthermore, Askaram exactly fit profile of some extraterrestrial being you are sure to found on some distant world. And the biggest clues to my theory are MiB themselves. Some of them seem like that they don’t age at all ( like Rubel completally staying the same from Raphaela to Teresa, Clare’s and Clarice’s generation, Rimoto to not age a day for seven years ), Dae missing literally half of his face and even somehow his eye can work normally, the way they create Claymores and all those tubes in Dae’s laboratory all point out to one thing – Humans from Mainland must be technologically highly advanced. Main reason why I am saying technology is because there is no magic in Claymore world, the closest thing to it being Yoki. But even that can be explained as powerful energy emission as a result of combining flesh of two different species, so the only other explanation is technology.
It is actually quite logical giving all the things that are happening so far in manga. With advanced technology MiB could easily manipulated Claymore Island Human population who are technologically still in medieval times, even not discovering things like Trebuchet, Telescope or Crossbow ( now that I mention this we didn’t even saw a single bow in entire manga, oh well… ). Only that could explain how could they live so long ( biological engineering ) and how are they able to create Claymores at all ( biological and technological engineering ). Because creating something so sophisticated as Claymores is not just simple “cut them open, than replace organs and let them slowly turn over”, as Human body automatically rejects any foreign object ( it can even reject perfectly healthy Human organ if everything is not right ). So they must have some kind of preparations: sedate them than using probably using some machines or something like that to stabilize the body and made it to adapt to new changes and actually accept them. And the last thing I wanted to point out is their Legendary weapon itself – their Claymores. As Miria said they are hard as nails ( seams even harder as they can cut through solid concrete and stone walls tick like some meter or two like it was butter, not to mention Clare breaking stone/wooden roof with it and making a BIG hole in the ground when she swings it, than we have Priscilla and Teresa hitting with such force that actual hitting of both swords release shockwave that can break glass and make you deaf… ) while all other weapons are easily breakable, except Raki’s broadsword. But because we never saw how Claymores are actually created, how Organization laboratory really looks like, and how is the real situation on Mainland all this remains only theory. But it is quite possible, just because we didn’t se any of that doesn’t mean that it is not there. MiB would probably bring just essential equipment for their experiments and leave the rest on Mainland as to more easily pretend to be on same technological level as Humans from Claymore Island.

It’s all just my theory, how I imagine Mainland faction and secret size of Organization. You are welcome to criticize if you want. I am also interested into reading other people’s opinions regarding this subject.

Last edited by Brother Coa; September 25, 2012 at 06:30 PM.

"The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

Re: Theories about Mainland.

Rimuto said that the "awakening" of the DoD is similar to claymores in the sense that once they awaken there is no going back

But i would not mind seeing the mainland....but i think its more likely that they MiB will just bring mainland warriors to the claymore island....And i am sure there is massive security around the mainland and the Orgs bases specificly....i think it will be hard for Miria and the others to get in there....

Now for my idea..... i think Miria and them might go and talk to the Askaram and find out more about "awakening" and how to better control there Yoki powers

Edit: Good work on making this tread...i was meaning to start up a convo about this but did not have the time to write it up ... so i thank you for getting this started

"Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

Re: Theories about Mainland.

please stop this island/mainland thing, because it's absolutely wrong! in claymore they always talked about a continent. so we have the claymore-continent and the bigger war-continent.

helen said in scene 25 clearly: " there are 47 regions in this continent".
miria said in scene 79: "I've traveled the entire continent and I've never to date found any mineral like the one this sword is made of. Our Claymores were never created on this continent" etc.
cynthia said in scene 83: "Our entire land...a continent that was claimed to be the only one in the entire world".

so it's absolut clear, it is a continent not an island. of course there are different translations, but i bought all volumes, and in the official translation they also talked about an continent!

in fact, there is only one textbox, the word island was used. and the official translation says: "to continue these experiments far away from the continent on an island". and this one time contradicts all statemants before and after. so it is simply a mistake from yagi, or what i think, it's a wrong interpretation from rubel and/or the organisation. the claymore-continent is surrounded from water and have no connection to a other landmass (miria said in scene 79: "there are numerous ships that have left ports in search for a new land, but they've all come back emtyhanded".). so they thought it is a island. but australia and antarctica are also surrounded of water, and they are continents no islands. to say, the claymore-continent is an island, is the same, if you call an dolphin a fish.

a other proof, that it is a continent, are the extreme different climatic zones. and with scene 128, we get some informations about the time the claymores, a abyssal one and a ship need to travel from the organisation to rabona. and with this information, it's clear, that it is a continent.

and with this calculation, we get a continent with the size of antarctica (13,2 million km²). this size explains the climatic zones and the time cassandra needs to reach rabona.
the war-continent must than have a size of asia. absolutely plausible and realistic.

Re: Theories about Mainland.

Thank you for clarifying that Bayga, always referred to Claymore land as island because it always had that felling to me... at least until I realized how big it actually is.
And there was no need to correct me about it's size, I already said that it is probably slightly bigger than Australia.

"The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

Genetic manipulation only becomes avalible after WWII technologies become avalible and considering Claymores are trainning with swords and not bazookas. We have no proof as yet that weapons beyond sword.

What technologies have we seen,

- tubes used to keep DoD's alive.
- Powerful virtually indestructable swords
- the knowledge to create said swords via the combination of certain elements
- the knowledge of how to mix Dod flesh and create a parasite
- the abillity to extract that parasite and create a claymore
- certain characters seem to have unnatural long life

I think the answer is Alchemy, imagine if science give way to advance alchemic processes that created methords to mix naturally occuring ingredients into advance alloys and products; DoD flesh to an alchemist might be considered simular to the philosophers stone.

Allows you to live longer (alchemy's goal), creates life (DoD parasites) and revives the dead (resurrected Number 1s.)

As for why the war has gone on so long think things may be more desperate than we thought; what we know about the war:

(for the sake of this list and the below theory the two sides of the war are 'otherside' and Org.side)

- It has lasted 100 years dispite one side having the DoD for allies
- We know that the other side doesn't want the org. succeeding
- We know that the org. has been doing experiments for a long time
- We have only seen two DoD's at any one time (2 in flashback and 2 the mib base - I know one was a technically an Araskaram)
- clearly the otherside (Rubel particularly) does not what to be exposed; because (the org. side will be more careful and perhaps move further away.)

Theory: I believe that the 'otherside' was actually losing the war and then when chance came they made a deal with the DoD who equalised the battle, allowing the 'otherside' to regain much of their territory (i know there's no evidence it's just a feeling).

(Think WWII the introduction of the Americans into WWII turned the tide of battle in the allies favour.)

However (I believe) that the DoD leadership (I would hope that the DoD are like ancient greece - civilised, but capable in diplomacy or war - as simple monsters would be boring) made a deal. Perhaps in return for something they would grant a number of their kin to the otherside's war effort (say 24 or so - working in pairs 1 Awakened form with a Araskaram as controller.)

DoD's are be used as weapons to break through heavy defences and crush entire armies.

However they are limited in number and replacements will not be provided should any be lost. This would mean that the loss of any would hurt morally and tactically. This would also explain Rubel's assurtions; if the orgside could produce limitless forces (imagine 47 successful ABs instead of 47 failures) then DoD's would be overwhelmed just by numbers alone.

The Orgside may not even know this or they would be going straight for quantity not quality.
The otherside is probably saying they have unlimited DoD forces at their command or something.

(think WWII when the Americans created two atomic bombs, but lied that they had more. If Japan had called their bluff the war would have continued.)

The Org.side manages to capture two prisonners (the HQ DoD's Miria found) who they use to produce claymores; or their predessessors. Creating the possibillity that an army of superhumans could be created.

The Otherside ignores this setback and continues using DoD's as assult units.

The first claymores (predessessors) are unleashed and some more DoD's are killed; which brings about a cold war with groups of several DoD's acting in concert with traditional forces to hold the frontlines.

(think WWI trench warfare)

A cascade of AB malfunctions results in several failed offensives with neither aside gaining territory, proving the first generation (uncontrollable AB's) cannot finish the war.

A cold war begins with both sides waiting to see what happens next, the Org. moves the two DoD's and on a small contient they begin working toward controllable AB's.

Rubel is dispatched. His orders are simple; prevent the creation of controllable AB's, it's the Org.side's last hope. If they fail, they will have to surrender.

Re: Theories about Mainland.

Originally Posted by Decepticon

Genetic manipulation only becomes available after WWII technologies become available and considering Claymores are training with swords and not bazookas. We have no proof as yet that weapons beyond sword.

That's the point - they keep Claymore continent in medieval age to easily control them while the rest of the world advanced to 21'st century Earth age. It's not hard to imagine, they keep it secret but they have it - Claymores are the proof of that, their swords to.
But than again it's just theory so far, I would love for it to be true but than again the answer could be as simple as alchemy you mentioned.

"The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

Re: Theories about Mainland.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

That's the point - they keep Claymore continent in medieval age to easily control them while the rest of the world advanced to 21'st century Earth age. It's not hard to imagine, they keep it secret but they have it - Claymores are the proof of that, their swords to.
But than again it's just theory so far, I would love for it to be true but than again the answer could be as simple as alchemy you mentioned.

Re: Theories about Mainland.

Originally Posted by Decepticon

Genetic manipulation only becomes avalible after WWII technologies become avalible and considering Claymores are trainning with swords and not bazookas. We have no proof as yet that weapons beyond sword.

I think the answer is Alchemy, imagine if science give way to advance alchemic processes that created methords to mix naturally occuring ingredients into advance alloys and products; DoD flesh to an alchemist might be considered simular to the philosophers stone.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

That's the point - they keep Claymore continent in medieval age to easily control them while the rest of the world advanced to 21'st century Earth age.

It's highly unlikely that the mainland has that much of a technological advantage. Decepticon's theory regarding alchemy makes much more sense.

If the mainland had advanced technology, the whole DoD scenario would be redundant. Toss a nuke (or its equivalent) at any biological entity, and it's game over. Period. Besides, the thought of isolating an island, much less an entire continent, in such a manner would be next to impossible. Surely there would be all sorts of stories of UFOs, aliens, gods, mysterious artifacts (ala coke bottle) etc. If anyone's seen the movie, "The God's Must Be Crazy" you'd get the general gist.

Until (or should I say, unless) Yagi tells us otherwise, it could go either way. It's his story, afterall... so logic doesn't mean squat. But for argument's sake, assuming Yagi hasn't entirely given up on plot development, I'd prefer logic to... whim.

Re: Theories about Mainland.

i think, the claymore-world is comparable with worlds like lord of the rings (of course without magic) or final fantasy. it looks like a medieval european world, but there are different races, energies and materials. in lotr we have trolls, dragons, magic, and the mineral mithril. in the claymore-world we have asarakam/dod, yoki, the unnamed sword-mineral and super stretch-material for alicias and helens uniform. even the normal humans are different from the people on earth. so we have humans without eyebrows and with pointed ears. and that are not only claymore characteristics. in the manga were also normal humans with this appearance. best example is the old hotel owner with pointed ears in scene 41. and that is not enough, the people in claymore are much bigger than people in europe. the most claymore are about 175cm. and they don't look bigger than humans. the average size for a woman in germany is 165cm. and in medieval europe the people were much smaller than today (woman 155cm).

the male claymore-uniform reminds me of the clothes from the soldiers in final fantasy 7.

Re: Theories about Mainland.

I've been trying to find a thread like this for a while, and your post made me create an account straightaway with a 24h+ waiting time for an activation email :P

Anyways I must say I agree with a lot of your points, from the extrapolation of facts/implications to logical development of ideas.

My input:

I will assume their year-month-day system greatly resembles that of the Earth. I can dive deeper into the reasoning behind this hypothesis but it won't be necessary, I very much doubt Yagi-sensei will, without any sort of hint to us, create a planet that has a day-length of 48 Earth-hours, 50 days per month, and 21 months per year lol.

My estimation for the size of Claymore Island is 50% less than yours (of course with a large uncertainty.) I have considered the same walking speed but I assume they only walk 15 hours per day maximum, since Raki is travelling with them. Also, as one of the Ghosts rightly says, travelling by boat can avoid all those mountainous paths. I assume that the landscape is very much pristine in the sense that forests and hills and mountains are all around, which will certainly hamper their travel speed; the average separation from town to town is a clue as to how 'livable' a squared unit of area is, and thus the general vicinity around them in terms of ease of travel. The impression I get is that most of the land is undeveloped.

I agree that the Claymore Island is somewhere close to either poles of the planet, although I cannot tell how far away they are from them. All I can say is, the North is cold enough to remain snowy throughout the year, and the rest of the land experience seasonal changes significant enough for them to develop the 'year-month-day' system.

Anyways, onto the next point. A war lasting 100 years immediately reminds me of the 100-year war between the English and French some 7 centuries ago. However, it is totally different in scale to the world of Claymore in that this was a war between just two nations, not counting troops limited to human only. I don't think further studying this will lead us anywhere helpful with our current topic, I only mention this as a subject of interest. But one point I want to raise is that, with soldiers capable of such large scale destruction, and assuming your point about extensive propaganda is true, I am really intrigued in how they seem to have enough resources to keep up the fight for 100 years. Now, if we look at the other point that you have raised, the one about having enough fighting potential to fend off the side with the overwhelming dragon-kin ally, I immediately think of two possibilities: Either they cannot completely control the DoD, and/or their DoD numbers are low enough for the other side to make a reasonably effective counter.

Unfortunately for the following point, I do not have the Japanese Raw at hand, so I cannot confirm the actual words used by Yagi-sensei. In the English scan, Miria mentions the other side having the dragon's kins as "comrades." However, upon looking at the Chinese scans, I find that they use a much more interesting phrase, "拉攏." This is a verb, which means along the lines of 'to manipulate somebody into your side (for advantageous gain.)' I cannot confirm the accuracy of either translations. If anyone can find access to the Japanese version to this excerpt (Scene 79) it will be extremely helpful. The Japanese Wikipedia page simply uses words like 'support' or 'assist,' but that could be far from the actual wording. Nevertheless, whatever wording is used cannot be fully trusted, as we know a lot of information Miria receives is from Rubel despite her having cross-examined her intel. Assuming he really is from the other side, he may choose to phrase it specifically to his advantage.

Now let's study the Asarakam. I am going to consider Rimuto's testimony immediately before his demise as trustworthy in building my idea. There are many points we can consider about the Asarakam (awakened and unawakened): biology, social structure and hierarchy (if any), population, power level in comparison to characters that we are familiar with, and many more.

Biology:
We know that they are hermaphrodites, which means they have both the male and female reproductive organs. This doesn't mean their reproduction behaviour is asexual (basically cloning itself when reproducing,) however, but just that they can reproduce with any one of their own. This greatly increases their survival chances as a whole species.

They do not grow old either, and this is actually reflected by the Claymores in their experiment. They both retain a 'youthful' appearance until they die. Awakening of Asarakam is described to be technically different from how Claymores awake, with the only mentioned similarity to be an irreversible transformation. There are a lot of different implications behind this statement. Something like, their awakening is not something that is uncontrollable, their awakening is not something that gives them pleasure like how the Claymores experience, their awakening does not induce hunger, their awakening could be something more like maturity for them etc.

Awakened Asarakam are shown in Scene 79 (four shadows), Scene 80 (three, together with a fourth unknown being that could be the Organisation's creation), and Scene 126 (just the head part is seen). Except for the last one, which I can't tell, they all have similar size and shape. From a biological point of view, I can only guess that the stage of evolution they are at now brings out the very best of them. In addition, this implies a predetermined social structure within their ranks, which we will discuss later on. We can relate this by looking at humans, for example, and other creatures such as tigers. Humans have a social structure which allows us to come in different size and shapes, whereas tigers look all the same. All tigers have the same features that enable their survival is top-notch, and only the outstandingly weaker ones are eliminated; this is evolution. Although there is a possibility that all the Asarakam we've seen until now are battle-types, the fact that they all look the same nonetheless implies great deal. Even human soldiers will have different build, hair colour, facial features despite all being (supposedly) macho enough for battle.

Social structure:
This section is totally ad lib from me, more or less. The structure is greatly dependent on their population, their mindset/behaviour, whether they group together, whether they have a leader figure if they do group, what they eat to keep themselves alive, where they live, whether they have villages or if they are one and only one nation as a whole. Most of these are undetermined, and even if you can guess one base on assuming something for another, there are so many possibilities that I can list but not worth listing, no matter how valuable the information could be, simply because I cannot say for certain anything at all. I think the important parameters which directly concern the war are population, hierarchy, and their relationship with the other human nations.

In terms of control, I guess there must be at least a substantial level of that as their awakening is irreversible, too. However, we do not know whether they can shape-shift like the Youma and Awakened Beings we're used to.

As you have rightly mentioned, we know that the other side does not want the Organisation to be able to produce controllable Awakened Beings, the outcome of which implies war potential that will cause a great deal of trouble to them. Most probably there are limited Asarakam on their side they could use for combat for whatever reason. Could be a population thing, could be an international relation thing.

Power level:
Originally I intend to develop this in detail with rich examples. In fact, this is the sole reason I've done so much research and thinking until now, it is in order to theorise the combat potential difference between characters that we are familiar with and the Asarakam tribe. However, a good estimate is that one ElaEla (Luciela&Rafaela destroyer) is more than enough to fend off any Asarakam (number unknown, need to know their war strategy) in its vicinity (effectively a verbal confirmation by the Men in Black when they saw ElaEla.) For any other (more accurate) comparisons, specifically involving Claymores and Awakened Beings, we need to consider a number of points, including the following:
The number of Claymores that can be made with 1 standard awakened Asarakam and 1 standard unawakened Asarakam (or even whether the samples they have in the underground are newly delivered or not, or whether they are there since the beginning or not suggests a lot);
The ease in capturing 1 of each (alive, considering they undergo rapid necrosis, this is notably difficult, especially with an Awakened);
Whether the Organisation is capable of controlling the power level of their creation;
The desired quality of an Awakened Being they wish to produce (suggested as a passing statement by Miria).

I can extrapolate my ideas from guesswork alone, such as discussing their war strategies and troop composition, both of which depend on the nature of battles (another guesswork base on assumptions), in order to estimate answers for the points above, but I think that will come another time. Something like, the fact that a large difference in the Organisation's fighting potential appears after the 7-year gap signifies quality products would require a substantial amount of resources, be it time, money, or talents. Any ideas pertaining to this is more than welcomed!

As an aside, I notice your point about bow and arrow, and I have thought about it before. But I think it is now resolved since we see its appearance in Scene 131, as used by the soldiers. I think this is a world where something similar to Alchemy is possible, whether in concept or in usage. Their biological technology must have been accelerated through wars, but I wouldn't say the same for other aspects of potential technology. Mechanical-related objects are in no way close to the level we have in our real 18th century. The making of Claymores is undetermined, so I wouldn't be able to comment on it to a useful degree.

Onto the last point that I want to talk about (for now): time scale. 100 years ago, there was a massive dispute, large enough to generate an all out war between two alliances of numerous nations. However, I cannot tell for certain whether they all know about Asarakam beforehand or not. Unless the war is waged on serious business like world domination or genocide (or even something 'smaller' like pride,) it is reasonable for one side to give up right away due to the overwhelming gap in their war potential. The truth about the pre-war situation will determine whether the Organisation was able to start their experiment immediately after the war broke out, or that they required time to prepare for the Claymore program. It is likely that they at least did not know everything about the Asarakam until they began fighting. In order to begin the Claymore program, they would need to have enough experience with Asarakam, (the following is ordered logically) specifically their original form, their ability to awake, the death of an Asarakam (to know about their high rate of necrosis), the strength and strategy required to capture them alive, the technology to keep them alive, the realisation that they need both the awakened and unawakened form to create something reliable, the realisation that their Youma creation can lead to Claymore-type creation, the realisation that awakened males can only serve better as kamikaze, the desire to create controllable Awakened Beings, and the influence required over Claymore Island. Notice that they created male Claymores on the island, but only lasted one generation before switching to a fully female program. Sending out Claymore-type troops into battle may only be around the male generation of Claymore has been established. At most, the male generation is the Organisation's last ditch effort to create controllable male Awakened Beings (this may hint at earlier attempts/experiments by the Organisation outside of the Claymore Island).

I would like to think that there has been at least 50 years in which Youma have a 'legit' status on the Island. It has been said that, older people who know the truth about Youma will die out, slowly but steadily turning their myths into facts. We need to consider the era in which the older generation lives will consist of young adults who have lived at least 20-30 years without coming across of Youma. The Organisation will need them to die out, too. Due to the fear factor, we can assume their kids will believe straightaway regardless of what their parents teach them. Depending on the average lifespan of a human on the Island, it will require around 30-50 years for total brainwash over the population. This suggests that, whatever the Organisation did, they took action on the Claymore Island at least 80 years beforehand. Which leaves us a 20-year gap for the fail scenes ((repeat of the above: to have enough experience with Asarakam, specifically their original form, their ability to awake, the death of an Asarakam (to know about their high rate of necrosis), the strength and strategy required to capture them alive, the technology to keep them alive, the realisation that they need both the awakened and unawakened form to create something reliable, the realisation that their Youma creation can lead to Claymore-type creation, the realisation that awakened males can only serve better as kamikaze, the desire to create controllable Awakened Beings.))

I generally have no problem with 1 regular year = 2 generations of Claymore estimate (I haven't seen the post you've mentioned; my figures are 150 generations in 80 years, which is about the same.) As a round up (and extra theory,) I'm just gonna rant about something slightly off topic. Let us consider the speech from the Organisation. They have specifically picked out 8 unawakened No.1s and claim that they're more or less all the outstanding ones they have mentioned. They also mention that the list goes on. Now, under what circumstances could you pick out 8 strong ones and say that to them? If I had 10 warriors, and I picked out 8, then I might as well list them all out. If I had 16 warriors, and I picked out 8, this does match the tone of voice Rimuto uses, but it might be a little less for "the list goes on." I would say, to pick out 8 outstanding warriors from the rest, the total has to be at least 3 times that number, which is 24 (8 out of 24 is 33%; there could be more No.1s.) Plus Isley, Riful, and Luciela, that makes 27. Also, a possible No.1 between Isley and Riful, since Riful isn't known as the 1st female No.1, but the youngest No.1. The gap must have been short, however, since Riful appears not to have grown significantly, noted by the difference between the scene when she meets Isley and her Awakened self that she got stuck with. I will round the total number to 30 for my estimation for now.

As an aside, the Black Card system must have developed after Riful's awakening, as two Abyssal Ones formed within such a short time, it would be reasonable as a suggestion. No known Abyssal One has formed until Luciela, who is a special case. We do not know the frequency of the type of events happened between Teresa and Rosemary, but we do know 'purging' is a practice typical enough to be performed on at least two No.1s (not counting Rosemary).

80 years for 30 No.1s, which comes to about 2.7 years per No.1, sounds about fair to me. Also, 150 generations for 30 No.1s, which comes to about 5 generations per No.1. I notice this abnormal gap between Teresa (77th) and Clare (150th). I don't exactly know how long has past during this time. We can consider Teresa received a number when Hysteria was No.1. There could be a gap after then but Rosemary was the next No.1 that we know of. And then Teresa. And then another possible gap. And then Alicia (by at most 150th Generation, maybe even earlier considering Orphelia was already No.4 during 127th Generation). Alicia is still No.1 after the 7-year timeskip but we can ignore this due to the abnormality of events.

Now, Teresa may have reigned as No.1 for a very long time (which is rare), but we do not know that for sure. The only hint to an answer lies in how the Organisation perceives her. She is only known to be one of the strongest 8 that has not awakened. Of course, Teresa hiding her real strength from the Men in Black also has something to do with this. In spite of this, there are only four known No.1s within 73 generations (from 77th to 150th which is about 30~40 years, compared to our estimate of 4 No.1s for an average of 20 generations ~10 years). As I've said, there could be more within that time, or that this is a special case with Teresa being so awesome (and the Organisation hogging Alicia).

May update this post in the future lol, or just post more. I notice I'm starting to rant. I planned to make this simple, but it turns out it isn't possible.

Re: Theories about Mainland.

I've been trying to find a thread like this for a while, and your post made me create an account straightaway with a 24h+ waiting time for an activation email :P

Anyways I must say I agree with a lot of your points, from the extrapolation of facts/implications to logical development of ideas.

My input:

I will assume their year-month-day system greatly resembles that of the Earth. I can dive deeper into the reasoning behind this hypothesis but it won't be necessary, I very much doubt Yagi-sensei will, without any sort of hint to us, create a planet that has a day-length of 48 Earth-hours, 50 days per month, and 21 months per year lol.

My estimation for the size of Claymore Island is 50% less than yours (of course with a large uncertainty.) I have considered the same walking speed but I assume they only walk 15 hours per day maximum, since Raki is travelling with them. Also, as one of the Ghosts rightly says, travelling by boat can avoid all those mountainous paths. I assume that the landscape is very much pristine in the sense that forests and hills and mountains are all around, which will certainly hamper their travel speed; the average separation from town to town is a clue as to how 'livable' a squared unit of area is, and thus the general vicinity around them in terms of ease of travel. The impression I get is that most of the land is undeveloped.

I agree that the Claymore Island is somewhere close to either poles of the planet, although I cannot tell how far away they are from them. All I can say is, the North is cold enough to remain snowy throughout the year, and the rest of the land experience seasonal changes significant enough for them to develop the 'year-month-day' system.

Anyways, onto the next point. A war lasting 100 years immediately reminds me of the 100-year war between the English and French some 7 centuries ago. However, it is totally different in scale to the world of Claymore in that this was a war between just two nations, not counting troops limited to human only. I don't think further studying this will lead us anywhere helpful with our current topic, I only mention this as a subject of interest. But one point I want to raise is that, with soldiers capable of such large scale destruction, and assuming your point about extensive propaganda is true, I am really intrigued in how they seem to have enough resources to keep up the fight for 100 years. Now, if we look at the other point that you have raised, the one about having enough fighting potential to fend off the side with the overwhelming dragon-kin ally, I immediately think of two possibilities: Either they cannot completely control the DoD, and/or their DoD numbers are low enough for the other side to make a reasonably effective counter.

Unfortunately for the following point, I do not have the Japanese Raw at hand, so I cannot confirm the actual words used by Yagi-sensei. In the English scan, Miria mentions the other side having the dragon's kins as "comrades." However, upon looking at the Chinese scans, I find that they use a much more interesting phrase, "拉攏." This is a verb, which means along the lines of 'to manipulate somebody into your side (for advantageous gain.)' I cannot confirm the accuracy of either translations. If anyone can find access to the Japanese version to this excerpt (Scene 79) it will be extremely helpful. The Japanese Wikipedia page simply uses words like 'support' or 'assist,' but that could be far from the actual wording. Nevertheless, whatever wording is used cannot be fully trusted, as we know a lot of information Miria receives is from Rubel despite her having cross-examined her intel. Assuming he really is from the other side, he may choose to phrase it specifically to his advantage.

Now let's study the Asarakam. I am going to consider Rimuto's testimony immediately before his demise as trustworthy in building my idea. There are many points we can consider about the Asarakam (awakened and unawakened): biology, social structure and hierarchy (if any), population, power level in comparison to characters that we are familiar with, and many more.

Biology:
We know that they are hermaphrodites, which means they have both the male and female reproductive organs. This doesn't mean their reproduction behaviour is asexual (basically cloning itself when reproducing,) however, but just that they can reproduce with any one of their own. This greatly increases their survival chances as a whole species.

They do not grow old either, and this is actually reflected by the Claymores in their experiment. They both retain a 'youthful' appearance until they die. Awakening of Asarakam is described to be technically different from how Claymores awake, with the only mentioned similarity to be an irreversible transformation. There are a lot of different implications behind this statement. Something like, their awakening is not something that is uncontrollable, their awakening is not something that gives them pleasure like how the Claymores experience, their awakening does not induce hunger, their awakening could be something more like maturity for them etc.

Awakened Asarakam are shown in Scene 79 (four shadows), Scene 80 (three, together with a fourth unknown being that could be the Organisation's creation), and Scene 126 (just the head part is seen). Except for the last one, which I can't tell, they all have similar size and shape. From a biological point of view, I can only guess that the stage of evolution they are at now brings out the very best of them. In addition, this implies a predetermined social structure within their ranks, which we will discuss later on. We can relate this by looking at humans, for example, and other creatures such as tigers. Humans have a social structure which allows us to come in different size and shapes, whereas tigers look all the same. All tigers have the same features that enable their survival is top-notch, and only the outstandingly weaker ones are eliminated; this is evolution. Although there is a possibility that all the Asarakam we've seen until now are battle-types, the fact that they all look the same nonetheless implies great deal. Even human soldiers will have different build, hair colour, facial features despite all being (supposedly) macho enough for battle.

Social structure:
This section is totally ad lib from me, more or less. The structure is greatly dependent on their population, their mindset/behaviour, whether they group together, whether they have a leader figure if they do group, what they eat to keep themselves alive, where they live, whether they have villages or if they are one and only one nation as a whole. Most of these are undetermined, and even if you can guess one base on assuming something for another, there are so many possibilities that I can list but not worth listing, no matter how valuable the information could be, simply because I cannot say for certain anything at all. I think the important parameters which directly concern the war are population, hierarchy, and their relationship with the other human nations.

In terms of control, I guess there must be at least a substantial level of that as their awakening is irreversible, too. However, we do not know whether they can shape-shift like the Youma and Awakened Beings we're used to.

As you have rightly mentioned, we know that the other side does not want the Organisation to be able to produce controllable Awakened Beings, the outcome of which implies war potential that will cause a great deal of trouble to them. Most probably there are limited Asarakam on their side they could use for combat for whatever reason. Could be a population thing, could be an international relation thing.

Power level:
Originally I intend to develop this in detail with rich examples. In fact, this is the sole reason I've done so much research and thinking until now, it is in order to theorise the combat potential difference between characters that we are familiar with and the Asarakam tribe. However, a good estimate is that one ElaEla (Luciela&Rafaela destroyer) is more than enough to fend off any Asarakam (number unknown, need to know their war strategy) in its vicinity (effectively a verbal confirmation by the Men in Black when they saw ElaEla.) For any other (more accurate) comparisons, specifically involving Claymores and Awakened Beings, we need to consider a number of points, including the following:
The number of Claymores that can be made with 1 standard awakened Asarakam and 1 standard unawakened Asarakam (or even whether the samples they have in the underground are newly delivered or not, or whether they are there since the beginning or not suggests a lot);
The ease in capturing 1 of each (alive, considering they undergo rapid necrosis, this is notably difficult, especially with an Awakened);
Whether the Organisation is capable of controlling the power level of their creation;
The desired quality of an Awakened Being they wish to produce (suggested as a passing statement by Miria).

I can extrapolate my ideas from guesswork alone, such as discussing their war strategies and troop composition, both of which depend on the nature of battles (another guesswork base on assumptions), in order to estimate answers for the points above, but I think that will come another time. Something like, the fact that a large difference in the Organisation's fighting potential appears after the 7-year gap signifies quality products would require a substantial amount of resources, be it time, money, or talents. Any ideas pertaining to this is more than welcomed!

As an aside, I notice your point about bow and arrow, and I have thought about it before. But I think it is now resolved since we see its appearance in Scene 131, as used by the soldiers. I think this is a world where something similar to Alchemy is possible, whether in concept or in usage. Their biological technology must have been accelerated through wars, but I wouldn't say the same for other aspects of potential technology. Mechanical-related objects are in no way close to the level we have in our real 18th century. The making of Claymores is undetermined, so I wouldn't be able to comment on it to a useful degree.

Onto the last point that I want to talk about (for now): time scale. 100 years ago, there was a massive dispute, large enough to generate an all out war between two alliances of numerous nations. However, I cannot tell for certain whether they all know about Asarakam beforehand or not. Unless the war is waged on serious business like world domination or genocide (or even something 'smaller' like pride,) it is reasonable for one side to give up right away due to the overwhelming gap in their war potential. The truth about the pre-war situation will determine whether the Organisation was able to start their experiment immediately after the war broke out, or that they required time to prepare for the Claymore program. It is likely that they at least did not know everything about the Asarakam until they began fighting. In order to begin the Claymore program, they would need to have enough experience with Asarakam, (the following is ordered logically) specifically their original form, their ability to awake, the death of an Asarakam (to know about their high rate of necrosis), the strength and strategy required to capture them alive, the technology to keep them alive, the realisation that they need both the awakened and unawakened form to create something reliable, the realisation that their Youma creation can lead to Claymore-type creation, the realisation that awakened males can only serve better as kamikaze, the desire to create controllable Awakened Beings, and the influence required over Claymore Island. Notice that they created male Claymores on the island, but only lasted one generation before switching to a fully female program. Sending out Claymore-type troops into battle may only be around the male generation of Claymore has been established. At most, the male generation is the Organisation's last ditch effort to create controllable male Awakened Beings (this may hint at earlier attempts/experiments by the Organisation outside of the Claymore Island).

I would like to think that there has been at least 50 years in which Youma have a 'legit' status on the Island. It has been said that, older people who know the truth about Youma will die out, slowly but steadily turning their myths into facts. We need to consider the era in which the older generation lives will consist of young adults who have lived at least 20-30 years without coming across of Youma. The Organisation will need them to die out, too. Due to the fear factor, we can assume their kids will believe straightaway regardless of what their parents teach them. Depending on the average lifespan of a human on the Island, it will require around 30-50 years for total brainwash over the population. This suggests that, whatever the Organisation did, they took action on the Claymore Island at least 80 years beforehand. Which leaves us a 20-year gap for the fail scenes ((repeat of the above: to have enough experience with Asarakam, specifically their original form, their ability to awake, the death of an Asarakam (to know about their high rate of necrosis), the strength and strategy required to capture them alive, the technology to keep them alive, the realisation that they need both the awakened and unawakened form to create something reliable, the realisation that their Youma creation can lead to Claymore-type creation, the realisation that awakened males can only serve better as kamikaze, the desire to create controllable Awakened Beings.))

I generally have no problem with 1 regular year = 2 generations of Claymore estimate (I haven't seen the post you've mentioned; my figures are 150 generations in 80 years, which is about the same.) As a round up (and extra theory,) I'm just gonna rant about something slightly off topic. Let us consider the speech from the Organisation. They have specifically picked out 8 unawakened No.1s and claim that they're more or less all the outstanding ones they have mentioned. They also mention that the list goes on. Now, under what circumstances could you pick out 8 strong ones and say that to them? If I had 10 warriors, and I picked out 8, then I might as well list them all out. If I had 16 warriors, and I picked out 8, this does match the tone of voice Rimuto uses, but it might be a little less for "the list goes on." I would say, to pick out 8 outstanding warriors from the rest, the total has to be at least 3 times that number, which is 24 (8 out of 24 is 33%; there could be more No.1s.) Plus Isley, Riful, and Luciela, that makes 27. Also, a possible No.1 between Isley and Riful, since Riful isn't known as the 1st female No.1, but the youngest No.1. The gap must have been short, however, since Riful appears not to have grown significantly, noted by the difference between the scene when she meets Isley and her Awakened self that she got stuck with. I will round the total number to 30 for my estimation for now.

As an aside, the Black Card system must have developed after Riful's awakening, as two Abyssal Ones formed within such a short time, it would be reasonable as a suggestion. No known Abyssal One has formed until Luciela, who is a special case. We do not know the frequency of the type of events happened between Teresa and Rosemary, but we do know 'purging' is a practice typical enough to be performed on at least two No.1s (not counting Rosemary).

80 years for 30 No.1s, which comes to about 2.7 years per No.1, sounds about fair to me. Also, 150 generations for 30 No.1s, which comes to about 5 generations per No.1. I notice this abnormal gap between Teresa (77th) and Clare (150th). I don't exactly know how long has past during this time. We can consider Teresa received a number when Hysteria was No.1. There could be a gap after then but Rosemary was the next No.1 that we know of. And then Teresa. And then another possible gap. And then Alicia (by at most 150th Generation, maybe even earlier considering Orphelia was already No.4 during 127th Generation). Alicia is still No.1 after the 7-year timeskip but we can ignore this due to the abnormality of events.

Now, Teresa may have reigned as No.1 for a very long time (which is rare), but we do not know that for sure. The only hint to an answer lies in how the Organisation perceives her. She is only known to be one of the strongest 8 that has not awakened. Of course, Teresa hiding her real strength from the Men in Black also has something to do with this. In spite of this, there are only four known No.1s within 73 generations (from 77th to 150th which is about 30~40 years, compared to our estimate of 4 No.1s for an average of 20 generations ~10 years). As I've said, there could be more within that time, or that this is a special case with Teresa being so awesome (and the Organisation hogging Alicia).

May update this post in the future lol, or just post more. I notice I'm starting to rant. I planned to make this simple, but it turns out it isn't possible.

welcome to MH hope to see more posts from you

Last edited by Ancy; November 14, 2012 at 05:11 PM.

"Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

Re: Theories about Mainland.

Ahhaha, I love you too for the exact same reason, I can firmly say

I'm absolutely in love with this manga. One of the (many) main reasons is the potential the Mainland gives. There's just so much to explore with this idea of 'the world out there.' I remember the first time they introduce the idea back in Scene 79, my mind simply ran wild with the imagination, and who knows? the day might come when Clare fights with / alongside with the Asarakam, although I wouldn't mind if Yagi-sensei never goes there, since this manga is called 'Claymore' afterall :P In any case, if it weren't for this series, I would never have written so much. I'm hoping more ideas will pour in here over time, be they reasonable or far-fetched fan-fiction, it will definitely open up a whole range of interesting discussion.

And yup, I'm definitely liking this place. I'll be stalking all the time at the very least

P.S. Unfortunately Clare came a bit too late in my life. By then, Saber has already been strongly holding onto Number 1 with Clare tagging behind :P

Re: Theories about Mainland.

The idea about Mainland is exiting to me to, it opens a ton of new possibilities.
The fact that entire island is just laboratory to conduct secret experiment is mind blowing.

Even if Yagi finished Claymore in this arc ( Clare and Ghosts vs. Priscilla ) I am sure that he will start one more series to introduce Mainland and it's war to the Claymore continent. After all, I doubt that Organization on the Mainland will let it's most important experiment for war effort go away like that.

p.s. It was opposite with me, I first read Claymore manga and about a year after that I read Fate/Stay Night visual novel. Saber is my by far favorite character in Fate series, I only hate Saber Alter ( I cannot stand evil characters, especially ones that fall to darkness ).

"The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"