Author
Topic: Number of kids (Read 5839 times)

We'll see how long my relationship lasts with my current girlfriend. I don't know I've been having this pull to the monastic vocation for the past few months, and trying to reconcile that and the prospect of marriage; just not sure what God is telling me, where I should be etc.

Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

'double income' is not necessarily feminist.most poor people in most of the world have families where both parents work and grandparents, friends and neighbours help with raising the children.that is why african women invented the baby sling, so they can still work in the fields with a baby.

but if you have enough food to eat, then both parents working full time is usually putting the desire for more money over the need to bring up the kids well.i hope this is understood as a desire to discuss this nicely, not to start a huge fight!

I grew up as an only child and I LOVED it. I cringe when I hear my wife's stories about the sibling rivalry she had with her sister growing up. She would be so much happier if she were the only child.

Sorry, but I need to contradict you on that point: Many problems in Ukraine are related to people getting only one child. First of all, simply not enough children are being born anymore. Secondly, only children are quite often spoiled and overprotected by their parents, which means that in many cases, they are unable or even being prevented from taking their own responsibilities as adults.

I imagine the joy one get's from children is ultimately dependent on the person. Their is a lot of joy in our home, today we just had our 7th! He weighed 12lbs!

I'm thankful my wife has never had to work, and my work allows me to center our life around all that we love. It's tough, but anyone's life is tough, and my wife and I wouldn't live any other way.

That being said, I would never tell someone how many children they should have. This is our choice, I'm sure it's not for everybody.

this has pretty much been our experience. Of course there are bumps, but that shouldn't be the primary reason just to have 1 child. We just got back from our family vacation with 5 of our kids. It was so nice being together and watching the kids goof off and relate to each other as they've grown into young adulthood. It was also nice to watch them help their youngest sibling (he's 10). Over the years, I've gotten a lot of positive comments about how my older boys play with and help with their youngest brother.

We get the college excuse all the time. It's just smoke and mirrors, IMHO. Yes, college is expensive but it doesn't have to break your back. We've been fortunate that we've been able to pay for our kids, however, my SIL has 7 and they couldn't pay for their kids colleges. So far 4 have gone off (3 finished) and none of them have had loans. They worked hard, got scholarships or worked for the college to help pay. They didn't got to high priced colleges either and neither have our kids. I've seen this with other families - whether they had 2-3 kids or 7-8 too.

FWIW, We're no longer paying for our oldest's college (she's in grad school). She got a full ride + a very nice stipend from John's Hopkins. She's doing research in genetics.

All that to say that the notion that lots of kids = horrible college loans doesn't have to be true.

this has pretty much been our experience. Of course there are bumps, but that shouldn't be the primary reason just to have 1 child. We just got back from our family vacation with 5 of our kids. It was so nice being together and watching the kids goof off and relate to each other as they've grown into young adulthood. It was also nice to watch them help their youngest sibling (he's 10). Over the years, I've gotten a lot of positive comments about how my older boys play with and help with their youngest brother.

We get the college excuse all the time. It's just smoke and mirrors, IMHO. Yes, college is expensive but it doesn't have to break your back. We've been fortunate that we've been able to pay for our kids, however, my SIL has 7 and they couldn't pay for their kids colleges. So far 4 have gone off (3 finished) and none of them have had loans. They worked hard, got scholarships or worked for the college to help pay. They didn't got to high priced colleges either and neither have our kids. I've seen this with other families - whether they had 2-3 kids or 7-8 too.

FWIW, We're no longer paying for our oldest's college (she's in grad school). She got a full ride + a very nice stipend from John's Hopkins. She's doing research in genetics.

All that to say that the notion that lots of kids = horrible college loans doesn't have to be true.

For us college is an issue. My oldest works after doing dual enrollment in high school, and because of this and her disabled sister lives here- she gets NO real grant assistance. Federal assistance doesn't look at the real situation and jobs dont' support school as easily as they did in my day. All that to say its hard, but it can be done.

My kudos to your daughter. As the parent of a child with Rett, genetic research is high on my list. Without it we would not know the gene responsible for Rett, and even thus we are the only autistic spectrum disorder that does know the specific genetic cause. They have also managed to find the cure using an animal model, we are just slowly waiting to translate that to humans safely and effectively. I commend anyone going into that field.

I grew up as an only child and I LOVED it. I cringe when I hear my wife's stories about the sibling rivalry she had with her sister growing up. She would be so much happier if she were the only child.

Sorry, but I need to contradict you on that point: Many problems in Ukraine are related to people getting only one child. First of all, simply not enough children are being born anymore. Secondly, only children are quite often spoiled and overprotected by their parents, which means that in many cases, they are unable or even being prevented from taking their own responsibilities as adults.

I think it would be good to have at least three children.

You mean you think it would be good for you & your spouse to have 3 kids don't you? You cannot force people to have children. Not eveyone is a good parent. Thaink of all the abused children in the world. If possible I think it would be wonderful for good parents to adopt some of the abused and unloved children of the world.Has abyone heard of a recent study of single child families and the benefits to children? It was mentiond in passing in a newspaper article last week.

See some other thread, where I pretty much PWN'd someone on this issue.

You will never be able to erase a lifetime of experience with this stuff and its effects on my person or others I know. I came to the table perfectly capable of understanding the inserts in medical-ese in my old Ortho Novum packets from years ago, long before the mini pills of the day. I researched diligently through medical journals and the PDR. My own mother nearly died from one of the earlier batches of bc pills in the 70's, as many women on that run actually did lose their lives. Even as it was she lost two children in the years following their usage due to damage from that level of hormones. The facts are what they are. I can use a tiny tiny drop of progesterone cream on my child when she is having a hormone (estrogen) based seizure and it stops immediately. Hormones are very very powerful, as most males know intrinsically. Tampering with them without restraint for the simple momentary sexual pleasure will always have consequences. There are always consequences to drug use, God knows I use enough other ones to cease epileptic activity in my daughter each day. And the reproductive hormonal system of a woman's body is particularly fine tuned and not to be tampered with. Ask someone who is in the 1% of women childbearing age worldwide that responds opposite of how she should to even natural progesterone cream. And for those that pull the nursing and natural family planning jargon. BULL! With all the hormones added to our food supply these days its impossible to firmly trust the nursing thing. I can't tell you have many women I know that were exclusively bf'ing and got pregnant anyway. And since I was part of the quiverful movement for a time, that's a lot of moms. Whatever may have worked before in biblical times, before they added crap to our food sources, ain't working now! And the whole knowing when you ov is bunk too. Science has found that a great portion of women tend to ov twice a month for reasons they can only suspect are hormone based, and the second ov doesn't show up with the same telltale flags. Pull out, yeah right. Condoms are for hookers and johns, not the wife of your youth.There are no hard and fast rules save abstinence, and for married couples this bites extensively.

You mean you think it would be good for you & your spouse to have 3 kids don't you? You cannot force people to have children. Not eveyone is a good parent. Thaink of all the abused children in the world. If possible I think it would be wonderful for good parents to adopt some of the abused and unloved children of the world.Has abyone heard of a recent study of single child families and the benefits to children? It was mentiond in passing in a newspaper article last week.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything. I am describing an ideal. And since I am convinced of the negative effects of being a single child, as decribed above, I would think with average parents, the whole thing is likely to turn out better with three kids than with just one.

Of course, there are bad parents. But I believe that the Orthodox Church can help them to improve.

You mean you think it would be good for you & your spouse to have 3 kids don't you? You cannot force people to have children. Not eveyone is a good parent. Thaink of all the abused children in the world. If possible I think it would be wonderful for good parents to adopt some of the abused and unloved children of the world.Has abyone heard of a recent study of single child families and the benefits to children? It was mentiond in passing in a newspaper article last week.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything. I am describing an ideal. And since I am convinced of the negative effects of being a single child, as decribed above, I would think with average parents, the whole thing is likely to turn out better with three kids than with just one.

Of course, there are bad parents. But I believe that the Orthodox Church can help them to improve.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your post. I agree if children are born into a loving family of practicing orthodox parents, they stand a better chance of growing up to be well adjusted adults.My comments are about families in society in general. I am not sure about statistics, but aren't there studies of 3 child families and the problems of being a middle child? I will try to find the study about single children being well adjusted and more mature than children from families of mutiple children. But frankly in the long run, I really think it depends on the parents. If the parents have a happy marriage and welcome children then I think the children have a better chance of being well adjusted.

You're quite right, but Akimori's comments referred to "the Anglosphere," so that was the framework I was using. This can probably be expanded to include most modern, wealthy "Western" nations though.

Quote

i hope this is understood as a desire to discuss this nicely, not to start a huge fight!

Oh yeah...? PROVE IT!

Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

[/quote]I agree with you. For example, I would say that my family was/is "double income" because I come from a farming family & my mother works as hard if not harder than my father. The vegetable garden, chickens etc was throughout rural history always considered "women's work". Not to mention all that cooking and cleaning.

We cannot be thinking that middle-class values was the norm in our society because it isn't. In working-class families many women worked since the Industrial revolution and in what we call peasant societies women worked too very hard. Middle class societies often had maids and laundry help etc. and still do.

I agree with you. For example, I would say that my family was/is "double income" because I come from a farming family & my mother works as hard if not harder than my father. The vegetable garden, chickens etc was throughout rural history always considered "women's work". Not to mention all that cooking and cleaning.

We cannot be thinking that middle-class values was the norm in our society because it isn't. In working-class families many women worked since the Industrial revolution and in what we call peasant societies women worked too very hard. Middle class societies often had maids and laundry help etc. and still do.

During the pre-world war two period in Pennsylvania, when the men worked the mines or the railroad, the women and the teenagers worked in the mills. In the southern tier of New york, the men and the women both worked in the shoe factories. (The men were tanners, the women did piece work.) "Baba" looked after the little ones. It was only after the war during the boom times of the 1950's and 1960's that the stay at home mom was the norm among the second generation American families.

As a Traditionalist Roman Catholic I never used artificial contraception (I actually would not have even if I had not become an RC, simply because I don't believe in drugs for elective purposes).

Unlike the modern novus ordo People of God church (in existence since after Vatican II), Traditionalist Catholics do not even practice Natural Family Planning (not to be confused with the old "rhythm" medthod which did not work). NFP, with Trad Catholics, is used only when a woman must space pregnancies for health reasons. Modern novus ordo adherents seem to believe in using it routinely.

Anyway, in all those years I conceived 7 times (and a few of those was when we were using NFP to actively try TO conceive). 4 of those babies tragically we lost to stillbirth and miscarriage, but we ended up with 3 living children.

All without ever using any birth control method, or even NFP (for avoiding pregnancy).

I am so sorry for your loss. My wife and I have lost two children because of mere "biology" (most likely, immunological incompatibility), so I can relate.

Yet, three children, if you ask me, are too many. One or two of them will have to pay their college expenses, which, likely, means loans, etc. (and very likely confusion, depression and the like).

Just why is it that several children are beter than one child?

My kids have no interest in going to college, so that's not an issue. They are interested in technical school instead.

Why are several children better than one? As someone who grew up as sort of an only child (my only sibling was 12 years older than me and already out of the house by the time I was 6), I HATED it. I never had anyone to talk to other than my parents (which was OK, but its one reason why I can't relate to people my own age, only much older).

Being an only child is a CURSE that no child should have to endure unless the parents simply were not physically able to have another child.

I grew up as an only child and I LOVED it. I cringe when I hear my wife's stories about the sibling rivalry she had with her sister growing up. She would be so much happier if she were the only child.

When I was little, there were two very religious Catholic families on our block: each had 9 children. I used to love going into their homes, because there was always someone to play with, unlike my house. And they were very kind to each other, the older siblings always helping the younger ones. They used to pray the Rosary and ask me if I wanted to join in.

Maybe your wife just had a dysfunctional family?

Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

Actually, there are different kinds of happiness. Only children often get spoiled, maybe that can be called "happiness" in the world. But that surely is not an Orthodox ideal. We must learn to control our passions. And for this, it is a good situation to be in a larger family and learn to dealing and share things with others, respect your siblings etc.

I am astonished how many people here are stating positions without taking Orthodoxy into consideration at all. Isn't this supposed to be the Orthodox Family Forum? And yes, I do believe that God told us to be fruitful and multiply.

I have not come across many large Orthodox families. But I was raised a traditional mainstream Protestant, and at our rural church there were many large families.

There were two families that had 8 or more kids. Many had 3-6 kids. (I have 20 cousins; my childhood best friend had something like 30 or 40 cousins.) Having 1-2 kids was uncommon. Having no kids meant you had recently been married or had conception problems (which was met with great compassion, BTW), but it was unheard-of to electively have a small family.

Nobody was particularly wealthy, and many were one-income households. Everyone lived relatively simply, but I never got the impression that anyone was destitute because of their family size. Everybody got by on their daily bread, which was all anyone prayed for. (Maybe that's why the stereotypically convert ideal of 19th century Russia has always appealed to me—because it's more like the way I was raised than modern Citydoxy.)

Personally this outlook appeals to me as well. But then, I have mostly lived in rural areas and I think that is more conducive to large families. And while I have no "skin in the game", the commonly-heard objections don't hold much water with me, because it completely goes against my experience of observing people live this way.

I think people don’t need to plan children birth or birth unconsciously but look wisely on this issue. I know, to bear a child it`s a big difficulty for many women but the more children family have the more firmness family is.

I think people don’t need to plan children birth or birth unconsciously but look wisely on this issue. I know, to bear a child it`s a big difficulty for many women but the more children family have the more firmness family is.

I don't believe it. I know families that could be much better of, and could have a much higher chance to stay together if they had one or two children instead of several.

Two kids, y'all. I think I might be having 4 (having 1, adopting 3 ), but I think that the child at least having a sibling to learn how to share with and play with is a good thing.

I only have one sister and while we don't get along all the time, I never wished that I was an only child. I would have probably been lonely. We were both introverts so we understood that about each other.

Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

We have 4 children (one more set to arrive in March). These are my thoughts on children:

I will never, never regret having more than one child. I have seen countless women and men regret stopping at a certain number of children. I watched my mother and step father desperately want to have children together when it was impossible. He had a vasectomy and she had a tubal ligation. I know a dear Catholic friend that mourns the fact that she had to have a hysterectomy due to hormonal issues. They have 4 children and were intending to be "done." But deciding to be done and having it forced upon you are very different things emotionally.

You shouldn't have children simply because you can. But you shouldn't stop having children because you reached "x" number. The number of children you have requires a great deal of thought and prayer. Although this will be our 5th child, it should rightly be our 10 child due to 4 miscarriages at various stages (one pregnancy was of twins). We aren't having another child to make up for the others we have lost. But the fact that we have lost so many makes me cherish the ones we have all the more.

One actually needs much less than they think they do. There is a great deal of truth to the phrase "all you need is love." One can have just one child and be able to give them anything and everything and end up raising a miserable insufferable human being. They have anything and everything they need except the ability to see outside themselves. The idea of jealousy and sibling rivalry is often blown out of proportion. Our youngest will likely be jealous, but that will have as much to do with the fact that she is weaned than anything!

A college education is not mandatory and in fact can be a hamper to a good career. We will be encouraging our children to pursue a trade. An electrician has a much better job outlook than an IT professional. You can easily make 6 figures a year and be an "uneducated" blue collar worker. We intend to give our children acreage in lieu of a college education. You can sell the land, live on the land- do whatever you wish. But land rarely ever loses value. Maybe it isn't worth the amount of money you would like it to be, but land is and always will be of use. College costs are almost impossible to estimate. Land is invaluable. If I had been given 5 acres of land on the peninsula I would be very happy.

We have 4 children (one more set to arrive in March). These are my thoughts on children:

I will never, never regret having more than one child. I have seen countless women and men regret stopping at a certain number of children. I watched my mother and step father desperately want to have children together when it was impossible. He had a vasectomy and she had a tubal ligation. I know a dear Catholic friend that mourns the fact that she had to have a hysterectomy due to hormonal issues. They have 4 children and were intending to be "done." But deciding to be done and having it forced upon you are very different things emotionally.

You shouldn't have children simply because you can. But you shouldn't stop having children because you reached "x" number. The number of children you have requires a great deal of thought and prayer. Although this will be our 5th child, it should rightly be our 10 child due to 4 miscarriages at various stages (one pregnancy was of twins). We aren't having another child to make up for the others we have lost. But the fact that we have lost so many makes me cherish the ones we have all the more.

One actually needs much less than they think they do. There is a great deal of truth to the phrase "all you need is love." One can have just one child and be able to give them anything and everything and end up raising a miserable insufferable human being. They have anything and everything they need except the ability to see outside themselves. The idea of jealousy and sibling rivalry is often blown out of proportion. Our youngest will likely be jealous, but that will have as much to do with the fact that she is weaned than anything!

A college education is not mandatory and in fact can be a hamper to a good career. We will be encouraging our children to pursue a trade. An electrician has a much better job outlook than an IT professional. You can easily make 6 figures a year and be an "uneducated" blue collar worker. We intend to give our children acreage in lieu of a college education. You can sell the land, live on the land- do whatever you wish. But land rarely ever loses value. Maybe it isn't worth the amount of money you would like it to be, but land is and always will be of use. College costs are almost impossible to estimate. Land is invaluable. If I had been given 5 acres of land on the peninsula I would be very happy.

I agree with what you said about college and trades. I will also steer our children towards a trade as the money and employment opporunities are much better.

The real difficulty is in paying off mortgages etc whilst having/raising children. One income is not enough these days.

Only numerically and only the "traditional" Caucasian West. But I am not convinced that it is a serious problem. The world is gradually becoming more mixed, more "colored." However, I have a strong faith in Western values such as freedom of choice, accountability and transparency of the government, etc. I am sure that those non-white people who migrate to the West from the Middle East, Southeastern Asia, Africa, etc., will sooner or later adopt the values of the new lands where they are now settling. Some time in the future, the parliaments and the intellectual and cultural elites of Western countries will have a much bigger proportion of people with black or yellow or red or brown skin, but the exponential growth of the population pretty much everywhere will give way to a slower growth or stagnation. The children or the grandchildren of those families from, say, Tunisia or Mosambique who are now making their home in Belgium or Canada will realize that having seven or eleven kids is not the most important thing in the world.

I only have one sister and while we don't get along all the time, I never wished that I was an only child. I would have probably been lonely. We were both introverts so we understood that about each other.

It is perhaps very different in different families. I was the only child, but my childhood was very happy on the most part (if anything bothered me, it was not loneliness but the fact that my parents were fighting every now and then, my mom making horrible scenes to my dad because of marital fidelity issues). I never missed having a sibling, never wanted him/her, never even thought about that. On the other hand, my wife grew up having a sister, who happened to be artistically and musically gifted and who was the "preferred," semmingly more loved by parents, other relatives, and friends of their family. This caused a very high tension and, sorry if this sounds dramatic, scarred my wife for a very long time, if not for life.

The children or the grandchildren of those families from, say, Tunisia or Mosambique who are now making their home in Belgium or Canada will realize that having seven or eleven kids is not the most important thing in the world.

You are too optimist. Look at the Western Euopean experience, please. Many native Western Europeans get just one child, whereas quite some Muslim immigrants are successful at rejecting part of Western culture, instilling in their children a feeling of superiority and maintaining a birth rate of 3-5 children, often also importing the spouse from the home country. This means that in places like Germany, England, Holland, there is a serious risk of getting a majority that will not think "Western" anymore in the next 200 years.

In Ukraine, on the other hand, the birth rate is down, but there is almost no immigration. The youth is going to a few cities (especially Kyiv and Donetsk) or abroad, so the villages and smaller cities are dying out.

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

I only have one sister and while we don't get along all the time, I never wished that I was an only child. I would have probably been lonely. We were both introverts so we understood that about each other.

It is perhaps very different in different families. I was the only child, but my childhood was very happy on the most part (if anything bothered me, it was not loneliness but the fact that my parents were fighting every now and then, my mom making horrible scenes to my dad because of marital fidelity issues). I never missed having a sibling, never wanted him/her, never even thought about that. On the other hand, my wife grew up having a sister, who happened to be artistically and musically gifted and who was the "preferred," semmingly more loved by parents, other relatives, and friends of their family. This caused a very high tension and, sorry if this sounds dramatic, scarred my wife for a very long time, if not for life.

Heorhij you are correct in saying it varies from person to person.

My boyfriend was an only child, and often wished he had siblings. He grew up in a very rural area 25 miles outside of town, and there were no kids in the neighborhood to play with.

Siblings would have been a blessing, but alas his mother could not have any more children.

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

We have 4 children (one more set to arrive in March). These are my thoughts on children:

I will never, never regret having more than one child. I have seen countless women and men regret stopping at a certain number of children. I watched my mother and step father desperately want to have children together when it was impossible. He had a vasectomy and she had a tubal ligation. I know a dear Catholic friend that mourns the fact that she had to have a hysterectomy due to hormonal issues. They have 4 children and were intending to be "done." But deciding to be done and having it forced upon you are very different things emotionally.

You shouldn't have children simply because you can. But you shouldn't stop having children because you reached "x" number. The number of children you have requires a great deal of thought and prayer. Although this will be our 5th child, it should rightly be our 10 child due to 4 miscarriages at various stages (one pregnancy was of twins). We aren't having another child to make up for the others we have lost. But the fact that we have lost so many makes me cherish the ones we have all the more.

One actually needs much less than they think they do. There is a great deal of truth to the phrase "all you need is love." One can have just one child and be able to give them anything and everything and end up raising a miserable insufferable human being. They have anything and everything they need except the ability to see outside themselves. The idea of jealousy and sibling rivalry is often blown out of proportion. Our youngest will likely be jealous, but that will have as much to do with the fact that she is weaned than anything!

A college education is not mandatory and in fact can be a hamper to a good career. We will be encouraging our children to pursue a trade. An electrician has a much better job outlook than an IT professional. You can easily make 6 figures a year and be an "uneducated" blue collar worker. We intend to give our children acreage in lieu of a college education. You can sell the land, live on the land- do whatever you wish. But land rarely ever loses value. Maybe it isn't worth the amount of money you would like it to be, but land is and always will be of use. College costs are almost impossible to estimate. Land is invaluable. If I had been given 5 acres of land on the peninsula I would be very happy.

God bless you and your family Quinault! You are a woman with much more patience than I could ever hope to have!

In regards to college, if your children were to decide to pursue an associates degree and then get their bachelors, with scholarships and such, they could graduate with little to no debt.

The bottom line: Having more kids doesn't necassarily reduce their options in life. (But you already know this!)

Congratulations again on Baby #5!

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

A college education is not mandatory and in fact can be a hamper to a good career. We will be encouraging our children to pursue a trade. An electrician has a much better job outlook than an IT professional. You can easily make 6 figures a year and be an "uneducated" blue collar worker. We intend to give our children acreage in lieu of a college education. You can sell the land, live on the land- do whatever you wish. But land rarely ever loses value. Maybe it isn't worth the amount of money you would like it to be, but land is and always will be of use. College costs are almost impossible to estimate. Land is invaluable. If I had been given 5 acres of land on the peninsula I would be very happy. Smiley