Why Divine Permission Establishes Free Will

Proverbs 21:1 says, “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hands of the Lord; he turns it wherever he wishes.”

In reference to this passage, Dr. John Piper, a notable Calvinistic pastor and author writes,

“What is apparent here is that God has the right and the power to restrain the sins of secular rulers. When he does, it is his will to do it. And when he does not, it is his will not to. Which is to say that sometimes God wills that their sins be restrained and sometimes he wills that they increase more than if he restrained them.” – John Piper

This is a common teaching among Calvinistic pastors and apologists. But, if God has indeed “brought all things to pass by His unchangeable decree,” as Calvinists often teach, then what is it in the heart of this ruler that God is restraining if not His own “unchangeable decree?” In other words, hasn’t God merely restrained the very intention He unchangeably decreed?

Suppose the ruler, referenced in Proverbs 21, wanted to harm his servant and God restrained him from this heinously evil intention. From where did this evil intention originate? Didn’t God “sovereignly bring about” the evil desire of this ruler to harm his servant by the same “sovereign control” that He restrained the ruler from acting upon that desire? How is God not merely restraining His own determinations in a world where there are no autonomously free creatures?

Affirming God’s power and ability to permit and/or overrule the will of morally accountable creatures does not prove that God sovereignly brings to pass every intention and desire of their will. It reveals the self-evident truth that there is a will outside His own that must be overruled and/or permitted.

Just because I have the physical ability to force my child to eat her lunch or restrain her from eating her lunch does not prove that I use that ability every time my child eats or refrains from eating. And choosing not to use my physical ability to force or restrain my child does not prove I am weak and incapable of doing so. It only proves that I can do as I please with regard to my child. It does not prove that I am pleased to physically control my child’s every move.

Moreover, if my daughter doesn’t have a will distinctly separate from my own, then what am I restraining when I physically keep her from eating? There is nothing to restrain or compel if there is not an autonomous will with which to contend.

So too, affirming God’s ability to restrain and/or permit man’s will to do what God decides does not negate the concept of man’s contra-causal free will, but in fact confirms it. For what is there for God to restrain or permit outside His own will if man’s will is not autonomously free from His own? It is nonsensical to suggest God is restraining a will that He has already been meticulously controlling. What decision is there for God to make regarding restraining and/or permitting moral choices of men if God is the one determining the will of every man at all times?

Sovereignty must be understood as God’s ability to do whatsoever He is pleased to do (Ps. 115:3), even if He is pleased to give the world over to man’s dominion (Ps. 115:16).

What we can be certain of is this, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” (1 John‬ ‭2:16, emphasis added)

How can John Piper say on the one hand that “God unchangeably decrees all things, including the lust and pride of men,” <link> while on the other hand affirming the clear truth of this passage, which is that these things are NOT from the Father?

A clear distinction must be made in the idea of God actively purposing evil and His actively using creaturely evil for His good purposes. The former impugns his Holiness while the latter highlights His redemptive sovereignty and ultimate glory as the Holy, perfect, sinless Creator.

542 thoughts on “Why Divine Permission Establishes Free Will”

It is because they believe He has 2 or 3 or 4 wills. He wants things that He doesnt really want. But notice…. as I have… that in most (all?) of Piper’s articles on how God wills evil, he can’t help but slip the “allow” word in there. It’s just too hard to flat out say it and he ends up sliding toward …. allow.

I’ve spoken of the sermon in which my Calvinist pastor calmly stated that ‘What we mean by sovereignty is that God simply allows evil to happen’. I had to hold myself to my seat, while inside I was jumping up and down screaming, ‘How can you possibly say that? You, who know and understand Calvinism far better than me, know darn well that is not what Calvinistic sovereignty asserts.’ Okay, so maybe plenty of them ‘say’ it, but it can never be true. And certainly Calvin clearly asserted that it could not possibly be true. He scoffed at men who hid the ugly truth about God by speaking of bare permission of evil, rather than boldly proclaiming the full repulsive story of his choosing and ordaining it. Oh, and don’t forget the part where he punishes the evildoer for doing the evil he ordained him to do.

As Dr. Flowers points out, one cannot both determine whatsoever comes to pass and still have something to restrain. The two are antithetical – if God determines all things, he is not sometimes ‘allowing’ what he determined and sometimes ‘restraining’ what he determined! And yet, like all the people who sat calmly in my church, heads nodding, Calvinists listen to such nonsense and act like it makes perfect sense.

In a deterministic world, in which all things come to pass by the distinct decree of God, there can be nothing for God to restrain. If God wants sin to occur, he will ordain it. If he does not want sin to occur, he will not ordain it. The only possibility of God ever restraining anything demands that something must be about to come into being apart from God’s determining decree. Or is God schizophrenic, wrestling with himself. ‘I ordained this to come to pass’. ‘No, I don’t want that to come to pass, so I am going to restrain it.

This ridiculous situation arises from another antithetical claim of Calvinism, which is the compatibilist claim that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but man freely chooses his own (determined) actions. It is only in this bizarre and impossible construct of Calvinism that one finds the God who ordains whatsoever comes to pass ‘allowing’ evil to be freely chosen against his will, remaining sovereignly in control of all things while not being the author of that evil that he determined, but did not will, man to do. Other times he restrains men from freely choosing evil, against his will, which seems to be a needless extra step for a God who decrees all things. If God didn’t decree a man to choose evil, he wouldn’t need to restrain him. Create absurdity, and you can only expect absurd ramifications.

Dr. Flowers writes, “What’s the difference in determining sin and merely permitting it?” Then “…the Calvinist is appealing to something all Traditionalists deny (i.e. if God knows something and does not prevent it [when He has the power to do so] then it is the same as Him determining it). Then, “Affirming God’s power and ability to permit and/or overrule the will of morally accountable creatures does not prove that God sovereignly brings to pass every intention and desire of their will. It reveals the self-evident truth that there is a will outside His own that must be overruled and/or permitted.”

God has a will and man has a will. Determinism says that God is sovereign so that man’s will is subordinate to God’s will. Where man’s will and God’s will clash, God’s will prevails. From Job, we see that Satan cannot act as he wills without asking God’s permission; in giving permission, God exercises His sovereign power to determine what will be done. So, it is with all His creatures – none can act without God’s permission. The will of man is opposed to God – thus, Dr. Flowers is correct to say, “…there is a will outside His own that must be overruled and/or permitted.” God decides whether a person will be free to pursue his willful actions or will be restrained from doing such. We have the examples the NT where the Jews were given freedom to stone Stephen but Herod was restrained from killing Peter. In each case, it was God’s decision what would happen and God’s decision determined the outcome – this does not require that God know the future but only act as present events play out.

Dr. Flowers says that, “”…the Calvinist is appealing to something all Traditionalists deny (i.e. if God knows something and does not prevent it [when He has the power to do so] then it is the same as Him determining it). Why they deny this escapes me. What do they aver instead – that man acts without God’s permission?

I don’t see a difference in determining sin and merely permitting it. If God “permits” sin then He has “determined” that it should occur.

rhutchin
January 22, 2019 at 7:26 am
God has a will and man has a will. Determinism says that God is sovereign so that man’s will is subordinate to God’s will.

br.d
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) the idea that man has a will which is not (at the foundation of the world) RENDERED-CERTAIN by Calvin’s’ god – is nothing more than a deceptive ILLUSION.

Rhutchin
Where man’s will and God’s will clash, God’s will prevails.

br.d
See answer above – this statement is nothing more than a Calvinist’s deceptive ILLUSION

Rhutchin
January 22, 2019 at 7:26 am
If God “permits” sin then He has “determined” that it should occur.

br.d
This statement confirms what I have been stating all along about PERMISSION in Calvinism.
The only events which Calvin’s god permits are those which he (at the foundation of the world) RENDERS-CERTAIN.
And rhutchin confirms this again (below)

rhutchin
November 20, 2018 at 6:46 pm
You make a distinction between “cause” and “permit” but there is no *REAL* distinction.

br.d
In Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) this is correct.
The ONLY events having divine permission are those events Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the word) CAUSES.
Nothing more – nothing less.

Events which are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN at the foundation of the world – have a status of being POSSIBLE but not ACTUAL. Therefore they DO NOT come to pass anyway.

Calvinists MAKE-BELIEVE events NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN – will come to pass – in order to *APPEAR* scriptural.

rhutchin states:
” From Job, we see that Satan cannot act as he wills without asking God’s permission; in giving permission, God exercises His sovereign power to determine what will be done. ”

My response:

What did Satan request permission to do? He didn’t request TO DO anything. He only asked God to remove the hedge.

What I read is that God ACCEPTED Satan’s bet! It was a CONTEST between God and Satan, testing Job’s faith. And, as in ANY BET, there are rules.

What were the rules? A restriction to NOT KILL JOB.

What was the objective of the bet? To see if Job would curse God.

The Devil Went Down to Georgia he was looking for a soul to steal!

It was a bet only. Job bet that Job would curse God without God’s protection. God accepted the bet, and told Satan not to kill Job.

So, I don’t see that Satan needs God’s permission to do ANYTHING, and, I don’t see that God is using any perceived sovereignty in any of it. There was NO DETERMINED outcome. No pre-determined outcome. Pre-determined outcomes are ONLY IN WCW Wresting!

Ya, lol to what you say. There was only one restriction. Don’t kill Job. There was not multiple restrictions. And Satan never asked to kill him. God did not tell him that it is already decreed that he can’t kill him.

At the foundation of the world he RENDERED-CERTAIN what he will have Satan do at time [T] – making it INFALLIBLE.
But Calvinists also need to MAKE BELIEVE he can restrict that which he has made INFALLIBLE.

The reason they have to twist themselves in knots, only sprinkling the word “allow” is because of their definition of the word “sovereignty”. For them it means all that happens is what God has planned/ ordained/ decreed/ willed/ desired to happen —- or, ipso facto He is no longer Sovereign…. He would “no longer be God.”

Of course this is a Greek, self-imposed definition. Once they have brought this definition TO Scripture, they have no choice but (a) to talk in circles about “allowing” meaning “decreeing/ ordaining” and (b) to ignore thousands of passages that say “I did not want you to” “If you had only…” “I planned to X but you…..” “I was expecting…. but you gave….”

ALL of these passages have to be poo-pooed, dismissed, or linguistically-gymnastically explained by determinist-Calvinists.

We have to ask them why God would put so many “misleading” passages in the Bible then? ….passages that we need help from professional clergy to understand “correctly”.

TS00 writes, “For [the Calvinists] it means all that happens is what God has planned/ ordained/ decreed/ willed/ desired to happen —- or, ipso facto He is no longer Sovereign…. He would “no longer be God.”

What I find strange in all this discussion, is that the MAIN topic, really, if we want to dissect it properly, has to do with SIN.

I disagree with all of it, on BOTH SIDES here.

What I keep proposing, on MANY different blog posts, is the word PROPHESY, not SIN.

EVERY CARNAL STORY from Genesis to Deuteronomy is a SPIRITUAL “journey” map to the FUTURE, or to simplify that, it can be said in one word…PROPHECY of future events.

God gives us a glimpse of prophecy in the CARNAL STORY of an actual event.

Those actual events is what God “manipulates” in people in order for God to SHOW those of us who are WILLING to put on our spiritual lenses, can see quite clearly, which is why we can CLEARY SAY that either a) Prophesy fulfilled, or b) prophesy not yet fulfilled.

People in the Baptist world uses expository preaching as their main way of teaching, and usually, it’s the SOLE means of teaching. Therefore, it concludes that the ONLY way to see prophesy is when it is CLEARLY, without the spiritual lenses, EXPLICITLY stated.

There are a few religions, claiming to be Christian, who state that Jesus is NOT GOD, all because Jesus never EXPLICITLY states, “I am God”.

But, why is the CONSTANT among Baptists, Calvinists moreso, why is the conversation ALWAYS regarding SIN, or Righteousness in the topic of FREE WILL?

In my studies, this free will topic has NOTHING TO DO WITH SIN, nothting to do with salvation, nothing to do with righteousness, but has everything to do with prophesy.

God had to manipulate the lives of people, CHOSEN people, in order to tell a story of a future event, and we are to see that future event in those lives, to clearly see prophesy.

I’ve said it before, that I believe that the Pharaoh, who chased Moses and drowned, is in heaven WITH JESUS, thanking Jesus for USING HIM to tell a story.

What was the story? Well, according to expository only folks, that the Pharaoh was a bad man, evil to the core, that refused to LET MY PEOPLE GO, blah, blah, and a couple more blah, blah’s, and let’s not forget blah, blah, too!

What’s the REAL story that God is trying to tell us by USING the Pharaoh’s LIFE?

Moses is Jesus, and the Pharaoh is SIN. The expository people will tell me that I am insane to even think that. I just shake my head, asking myself, WHY CAN’T THEY SEE WHAT I SEE?

A woman getting raped has NOTHING TO DO with God ordaining it, UNLESS it has something to do with prophecy, and I’m quite certain that it doesn’t. Prophecy is located in “THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS AND THE PSALMS”.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Was Jonah a PROPHET? Notice the word “all” in Luke 24:27. What did Jonah prophesy about Jesus? Do the EXPOSITORY preachers tell you? Jonah is a SHORT BOOK. It’s part of the Bible that is called “PROPHETS”, and Jesus clearly states that he is the one that fulfils what is written in the PROPHETS. Not only that, but the TORAH (NOT THE OLD TESTAMENT), AND the Psalms.

What do the expository folks tell ya what Jonah was all about? What a bad man that he was because he didn’t want to go to Nineveh!

Well, God manipulated him NOT to want to go, and why? Because his being swallowed by a fish for X amount of days and X amount of nights was to be PROPHECY of Jesus, and Jonah’s experience was to be prophesy of HELL for Jesus, describing carnal things that have BIGGER SPIRITUAL meaning about hell.

None of that has ANYTHING TO DO with SIN or salvation, but it is a story about Jesus in prophesy.

I give examples of not only Jonah, but of Joseph, and Moses/Pharaoh, and Abraham, and David, etc. Those lives, and many more, were manipulated to show prophesy, and unfortunately, the Calvinists use that as examples that God ordains sin for his glory, and that we have limited amount of free will.

You make an interesting statement regarding prophesy – but its unclear how it applies.

The primary difference between Calvinist theology and non-Calvinist theology is Theological Determinism.

Now prophesy is the “outward expression” or “declaration” (if you will) of future events.

In Theological Determinism – *ALL* future events are CAUSED by a divine antecedent.
They are RENDERED-CERTAIN – at the foundation of the world – being CAUSED by the THEOS.

Prophecy in this case would be the THEOS “declaring” what he has RENDERED-CERTAIN come to pass.
And declaring that that event will come to pass at a given time or within window of time.

So prophecy does play a role in the overall picture.
If, for example, God writes a declaration on a tablet of stone stating: “Adam will disobey” – then God has used himself as the vessel who gives the prophecy. And by virtue of the fact that God cannot be wrong – that event cannot not come to pass.

But as you know – there is such a thing as a false prophecy.
A false prophecy is one which does not come to pass.
God himself cannot be the vessel (“declarer” if you will) of false prophecies because that would entail God being wrong.

So in my mind – whether there is prophecy or not – doesn’t appear to play a primary or determinative role in discussions between Calvinists and Non-Calvinists.

So its hard to see how prophecy becomes a central issue.
Unless you can make that understandable?
And I’m open to that.

I already did, when I mentioned 2 verses in the gospel with Jesus own words when he stated that all things about him had to come true that is written in Moses, the prophets, and the psalms. Then I took you back to the prophets citing Jonah. That short book is a prophecy of Jesus. But do the expository people declare that? No. The life of Jonah was used by God, so that Jonah did not want to be obedient to God. That fish was the reason. God was telling a story about the death of Jesus by the actions of Jonah. The purpose of the book of Jonah, a prophet, was about Jesus, not about Nineveh, not about consequences for not being obedient to God, but about Jesus alone. It’s not about prophesy concerning an individual, either, i.e., thus saith the Lord… prophesy is much more obscured than that. Example… The son of David is the one to build the temple of God. That is a prophesy of JESUS, the son of God building his church. It’s not explicit as a thus saith the Lord. But it’s prophecy of Jesus.

Regarding Adam… God didn’t have to decree anything. It’s natural, in the flesh, to disobey. 1 Cor 15 shows that the natural man came first, not the spiritual man. Besides, I have yet to find anything that God told him about anything called a tree of life and telling him to eat of it. Put a candy bar in your child’s bedroom. Tell that child not to eat it. Don’t be surprised if in the morning that you find the candy wrapper in the trash. But don’t tell him of the reward for eating spinach, and don’t tell him anything about spinach to begin with. The odds of Adam complying are slim to none. But that’s not what’s important about that story. What’s important was what Adam got as a result of that disobedience. What he got was the name of that tree. Knowledge of good and evil. He didn’t have that KNOWLEDGE before. That knowledge told him what his sins were. Separation from God resulted. God provided a way to continue that relationship called… sacrifice, hence another prophecy of Jesus. God killed the lamb of God. The very first creature to shed blood was not human, but an animal. Sacrifices were introduced, showing prophecy of Jesus, without anything being explicit . That’s what I’m talking about. I’m not discussing individuals, sin, salvation, righteousness, or determinism. I’m not discussing the outcome of the Superbowl. Has God decreed that? No. Peter, in his epistle, discusses prophecy, in that it can’t be of private interpretation. Prophecy, not scripture. Although prophecy is in scripture. What that means is that prophecy is about Jesus, not you, not me, not anyone, hence the word private. The Catholics use that as a means to say that only the Pope can interpret scripture. But that’s not the meaning of the passage at all.

Lots of interesting thoughts. You and I don’t always arrive at the same conclusions – who does? – but I appreciate many of the insights you share. The more we interact with others, who are honest and genuine in their interactions – despite all of us being imperfect in our understanding – the more we can open our minds to other possibilities than the lines we’ve always colored in. I used to have the goal of ‘learning all of the answers’. I now see that as unrealistic, and aim for chipping off, a little here, a little there, the wrong thinking that has been impressed upon me. Alas, my complete and perfect understanding must await a fully renewed and ‘glorified’ mind.

Thank you. This is why I’m non-denomination. I think that God has shown that most denominations have something to contribute, but what do we end up doing? Calling other denominations heretics for even voicing our opinions. Calvinism, however, I think we have valid reasons to argue against it. It’s the most cruel unloving belief system that creates victims of violence, and tells the victim that God decreed what they got, and that it’s their fault, that God did it for his glory, so, the victim got what they deserved… all the while, the perp gets away with his evil deeds cuz he is only doing what God decreed. That Calvin was mentally insane.

Firstly, it seems to me – when you say prophecy – in a large number of your examples – what you are actually referencing is what is typically called “types and shadows”. For example, the business of Pharaoh, the blood on the doorpost etc. There are a ton of types and shadows in the tabernacle in the wilderness. Cain and Able, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, the children of Israel being under bondage to their enemies….etc.

These are all types and shadows of good things to come – which of course is summed up in Jesus.

I like to say that God took a painting of his beloved son and broke it into a million pieces – and scattered it throughout the Old Testament as a testimony of all of the things Jesus is.

So in that regard, I heartily agree with on you how a million things in the OT are prophetic glimpses of the most precious gift God gave to mankind – in his beloved son Jesus.

That being said – I’m sure you will agree – there are other aspect of scripture that speak of different things other than how they function as types and shadows of Christ. Take for example, the exhortations in the NT which point to OT characters, such as Lot’s wife, the sin of Balaam. etc.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Right! But what I will say, is that the NT scriptures explicitly states, giving us a huge hint to go back to, what you call, OT scriptures, and re-read it. I must stress that Genesis is NOT OT. OT is Exodus 20 thru end of the last do or don’t in Leviticus. Instead of the use of the word, OT, it’s the first 5 books, the Tora, otherwise known as, PENTETEUCH. But, like I also mentioned, as Jesus stated, it’s not just there. Prophecy is also in ALL the PROPHETS and the psalms. THE TANAKH (TNK), meaning, the law (Tora), the Prophets, and the writings. When you say, TYPE OR SHADOW, you know as well as I, that the ONLY type or shadow that many will see, are only those that are EXPLICITLY explained in the NT. Example: We inherit the promises made to Abraham. That’s plural. What were those promises? One of those was the promised seed. Galatians tells us that the promised seed is Jesus. Genesis doesn’t say anything about anyone named Jesus as being the promised seed. Genesis explicitly states that Isaac is the promised seed. But what else is promised to Abraham? We inherit whatever that is. Can you tell me?

Solid article, but you don’t need “contra-causal free will,” or ontologically free will. You just need teleologically free will. Under the interference patterns caused by chaos under determinism, things can emerge and be teleologically original, even though the system is ontologically deterministic.

(1) Let’s say that God loves physical consistency except on rare occasion of intervention.
(2) Let’s say that God loves a huge pile of pots and pans.
(3) Let’s say that God knocks over that pile in just the right way so that the resultant mess has features he loves.

From here, we can say:

(A) The system is deterministic, but it is not the case that God was meticulously micromanaging everything about it.
(B) The noise was loud, but that doesn’t mean God loved the loud noise, nor that it sounded to him like a beautiful symphony.
(C) He loved certain features about the resultant mess, but that doesn’t mean he loved all of them.

In other words, fact (A) and the chaotic nature of the thought experiment means that all sorts of things can result deterministically, but that DOESN’T mean that God loved each detail about them.

This is the function of chaos under determinism. It generates freedom. And we observe a universe that is awash in chaos, more than enough to supply creation with a huge amount of teleological freedom under determinism.

Generally ontology is considered a branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being. So ontology may encompass as a sub-focus, questions regarding CAUSE and effect. What kind of entity can be classified as a CAUSE, and what kind of entity can be classified as an effect.

Teleology however, is a focus on the purpose, which an event serves – and so is a distinctively different focus than the CAUSE of event(s).

So if the intent is to argue that a focus on what CAUSES events within the scheme of Theological Determinism is trivial – then I don’t think that case is clear. And certainly current Philosophers – Plantinga, Craig, Van Inwagen, and a hose of others currently contributing to these conversations – would easily disagree with that assessment.

Additionally (at least as I can understand at this point), the term “teleological freedom” needs to be less ambiguous.

Within the scheme of Theological Determinism – a creature is ONLY free to be/do whatever the THEOS determines the creature be/do. So “teleological” freedom within this scheme would appear to be an amorphous red herring.

The Teleological issue (i.e. the purpose of which the THEOS had in mind) for CAUSING event [X] doesn’t negate the fact that the THEOS is the CAUSE of event [X].

And in Theological Determinism (per John Calvin) the idea that the THEOS does not “meticulously micromanage everything” – (and everything about it) is rejected.

Per Calvin’s terminology: EVERYTHING without exception is determined – AND everything is determined IN EVERY PART.

Now to the issue of what the THEOS loves or doesn’t love.
I can certainly agree that a THEOS may CAUSE event [X] – the antecedent CAUSE of [Y] and [Z]… etc.
And it is reasonable to understand that the THEOS is not obligated to love any of these events.

But again – whether or not the THEOS loves or does not love any event which the THEOS CAUSES – would appear to be superfluous – because it does not negate the fact that the THEOS is the CAUSE of every event – and every aspect of every event.

So making the case that the THEOS does not “meticulously micromanage everything” within Theological Determinism is not going to be easy to make. Especially to a Calvinist audience – as you can see below.

John Calvin:
“Men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)

Calvinist R. C. Sproul:
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, God is not God”.

Calvinist Paul Helm:
“Not only is every atom and molecule, EVERY THOUGHT AND DESIRE, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL OF GOD”. (The Providence of God).

Glad you jumped in br.d, before I opened my big mouth, as you are far more knowledgeable in this realm. Nice to see you back.

I would agree that, under classical Calvinistic Determinism, meticulous control of all things is indicated. Otherwise, you are left with classical non-Calvinism, which grants a sovereign God overseeing a creation to which he has granted a great deal of autonomy, i.e. limited permission to choose their own destiny. God’s knowledge, power and ability to do as he wills is not in question by any side of the discussion of Divine Determinism; merely the degree to which God intervenes in the affairs of men.

Both sides agree that God is the sole Creator of all created matter, without whose determination nothing would even exist. Nor is it denied by any that he alone decided how much, if any, autonomy his inferior creation would be granted. Once again, the contention, which really ought by this time to be clearly understood and honestly debated, is how much control God exercises over the thoughts and actions of men. Meticulous control has always been the framework under which Reformed Theology was built. Other viewpoints may differ in their view of how much, and in what manner, God interjects his will into his creation. But the great divide between Calvinism and all others is the Determinism inherent to their structure. Anything else is simply a distraction from the genuine difference in theories of how an omnipotent God oversees his dependent, inferior creation.

Any man who proposes to a woman after having served her magic potient – which CONTROLS her mind such as to guarantee she finds him irresistible – is manifesting a demonic spirit – and not the spirit of Christ.

I agree with A.W. Tozer – any god who is so controlling that he has to FIRST CONCEIVE and RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse every one of his creatures will ever have through out their life – is not a TRULY Sovereign god.

Even a depraved man can control the actions of puppets.
And even a depraved man can program the thoughts/choices/actions of robots – can do the same.

TS00 writes, “Otherwise, you are left with classical non-Calvinism, which grants a sovereign God overseeing a creation to which he has granted a great deal of autonomy, i.e. limited permission to choose their own destiny.”

“…he has granted a great deal of autonomy, i.e. limited permission to choose their own destiny.” This is determines as it is God who grants people the ability to choose their own destiny. We see this with Adam/Eve in the garden, Pharaoh, Israel, etc.

Then, “…God’s knowledge, power and ability to do as he wills is not in question by any side of the discussion of Divine Determinism; merely the degree to which God intervenes in the affairs of men.”

Meaning that God has the right to express His will in the way He intervenes.

None of this negates God’s sovereignty or oversight over everything including every atom or thought of the mind.

Then, “Meticulous control has always been the framework under which Reformed Theology was built.”

A demonstration of the problem with many Calvinists. The gentleman does not understand what ‘meticulous control’ means. If it can mean ‘non-meticulous’ control, as described beforehand, as well as meticulous control – it’s antithesis – then one can, as the gentleman so often does, hold completely opposing, contradictory viewpoints with equanimity.

Maybe it makes sense to you, but I’m still scratching my head. I have to see examples, and I can’t come up with any that make sense. Best I can see it we have:

God is the omnipotent sovereign, who creates, controls and meticulously determines whatsoever will ever come to pass in my creation. Nothing, absolutely nothing can occur unless God, personally, decides, wills and decrees that it should.

The explanation for rape, genocide and all evil is because God determines to not intervene, and allow these terrible evils, of which he is not to be mistaken as the author, to occur. Evil is, nonetheless, utterly opposite to his good will and nature, as God can never do evil.

How does this make any sense? How could evil possibility have arisen if the first premise is true? And if God desired evil to exist, for whatever reason, how could he call it ‘sin’? Is not sin, by definition, refusing to obey the known commands of God? How can a Sovereign God, whose will always is done, who alone determines whatsoever comes to pass, be disobeyed by creatures who infallibly do as they have been ordained to do in eternity past?

The Calvinist is left making endless illogical, antithetical assertions, inventing multiple, contradictory wills and looking like a hapless court jester with his entertaining inanities. He has to explain why his ‘good’ God is big ‘S’ Sovereign over all things (as per Calvinist definition) yet is not solely responsible for whatever evil comes to pass under his Sovereign reign. He must explain how the Sovereign God can hold accountable for their actions those who only, irresistibly do what God has Sovereignly ordained they must do, before they were even born. If he manages to do that satisfactorily, he must explain how obeying whichever one of God’s multiple wills man is following is ‘sin’. How is it man’s fault that God has opposing, contradictory wills? Maybe God should have worked out that little problem with his therapist before he set out to create the universe?

So, do Calvinists wait, with baited breath, to see how their Sovereign God overcomes his ‘sin’ will with his ‘Good’ will? Sorry, I don’t see the ‘glory’ in one of God’s wills overcoming another of God’s wills. So, God can juggle. big deal. Nor, in the end, can I see any possible way of claiming that man is responsible for his actions if he is denied a free moral choice. Unless man can freely, knowingly say to his Maker , “No, I will not do as you command” and do other than what God desires, without being manipulated, limited or controlled by unseen, secretive means to do as God wants him to do anyway, he cannot be justly condemned and punished for anything he does.

TSOO
God meticulously controls everything. Everything that happens is exactly what God wants to happen [insert Will #1].
But…. He doesn’t really “control” it. Some things He doesnt really “want” to happen [insert Will #2].
He only intervenes when He wants… and “not intervening” is His way of “meticulously controlling” it [foggy way of putting Will #3?].

Ya see! I got it now!

Do I have it guys?

br.d
Good one! Yes!

Calvin’s god does what he doesn’t do – and always doesn’t do what he does do!
It all makes perfect sense to a Calvinist. :-]

God is sovereign and in control of His creation. His control is meticulous giving attention to every detail of His creation at all times for nothing escapes God’s eyes. In the exercise of His sovereignty God may initiate events (e.g., the flood of Noah, the impregnation of Mary), restrain people in there actions (preventing Peter being killed), or give people free rein to do evil (e.g., the stoning of Stephen; judgment of Israel by Assyria). In every event, God chooses what He will do and God always has the final say.

br.d
Calvinist R. C. Sproul:
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, God is not God”.

Calvinist Paul Helm:
“Not only is every atom and molecule, EVERY THOUGHT AND DESIRE, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL OF GOD”. (The Providence of God).

br.d writes, “Calvinist R. C. Sproul:
“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, God is not God”.
Calvinist Paul Helm:
“Not only is every atom and molecule, EVERY THOUGHT AND DESIRE, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL OF GOD”. (The Providence of God).”

A sovereign God necessarily exercises meticulous control over His creation. What is your point?

rhutchin
God has the right to express His will in the way He INTERVENES.

br.d
INTERVENES WHAT?

There are two categories of events
1) Events which he (at the foundation of the world) RENDERS-CERTAIN come to pass. These are events that (at the foundation of the world) he KNOWS and BELIEVES will come to pass – exactly as he has RENDERED-CERTAIN.

2) Events which he has *NOT* RENDERED-CERTAIN.
These are events – that are not going to come to pass anyway – because – per Calvin – only those events which *ARE* RENDERED-CERTAIN will come to pass.

Therefore – the only events Calvin’s god *CAN* INTERVENE to prevent – are events that are not going to come to pass anyway.

But the Calvinist needs to MAKE-BELIEVE some events are not RENDERED-CERTAIN – so that Calvin’s god an INTERVENE to prevent them!

Is it possible that Rhutchin genuinely does not grasp the basic principles of logic? Without question, many are deceived into adopting Calvinism due to not recognizing or thinking through its logically impossible assertions. One friend of mine freely admits he does not understand logic, but insists that it doesn’t matter, because ‘God cannot be held to man’s logic’. This is simply a lack of understanding of what logic is, and how it helps us to arrive at reasonably trustworthy judgments as to what is true and what is false. Certainly God is beyond our understanding, and not limited by human limitations, but to assert that he is outside of the boundaries of logic is to assert that we can never reason about statements and claims which he makes. If God superseded logic, it would be impossible to attempt to know anything concerning him, and Paul was wasting his time in reasoning with unbelievers.

It cannot be logically asserted that any mortal man controls all future events, as mortal humans have no such demonstrable or reasonably alleged power. It is not illogical to assert that a Sovereign, omnipotent God can control all future events, based on his eternal existence and power to bring all things into existence. It is, however, illogical to assert that God both does and does not control all things, in the same manner at the same time. That is not logically possible, for God or anyone, no matter how limitless the power involved.

All too often, people believe that logic can be dismissed in the case of God by appeals to ‘power’, but this simply is not so. Scripture, while frequently demonstrating God’s ability to suspend natural laws, never demonstrates God suspending the rules of logic. Logic is not a human system to which God is bound, but the trust and application of the consistency that God has demonstrated throughout his creation and all of his interactions with men.

I’m no expert by any means; but the more I learn about logical fallacies, the more I understand how and why Calvinism misses the mark.

TS00
Is it possible that Rhutchin genuinely does not grasp the basic principles of logic? One [Calvinist] friend of mine freely admits he does not understand logic, but insists that it doesn’t matter, because ‘God cannot be held to man’s logic’.

br.d
Actually Calvinists have their own logic – the same way they have their own exegesis.

And their logic – just as their exegesis is no less a product of man than anyone else’s. Unfortunately, Calvinists are taught to rely upon intellectually dishonesty. Of-course they don’t recognize it. And you can clearly see that with rhutchin – who continuously attributes argument strategies to others which he himself is engaged in. And how he needs to perceive himself as higher-than-thow in everything, including logic.

Calvinists won’t recognize the intellectual dishonesty they rely on because if they did – they would be obligated before Christ to repent from it. Then if they chose not to repent – they would interpret their unrepentant state as a possible sign that God had not elected them. And things would go downhill for them very fast after that. So they simply maintain voluntary blindness concerning it – and don’t allow themselves to recognize it.

If they give up intellectual dishonesty they loose the benefit they calculate they derive from it.

The scripture says “If any man say he is without sin he deceives himself and the truth is not in him”. So obviously no Calvinist is going to assert that he is without sin. What they do instead is to perceive themselves as having LESS sin than others. Less sin – less blindness – less bias – less mans’ logic – etc -etc etc.

Their position on both logic and exegesis is that theirs is more divine than others. And even if they don’t EXPLICITLY state it that way – their boasting statements clearly presuppose it.

The reason Calvinists are week on Logic is that it doesn’t work for them. In social interactions and communications we people rely upon mutually agreed upon standards which all participants subject themselves to – in order to minimize deceptive practices within exchanges.

Language can be easily manipulated because standards concerning it are not strictly enforced within common communications. Logic on the other hand has extremely rigid standards which have evolved over time – and those standards allow the logician to discern truth from falsehood. Jesus was VERY LOGICAL!

Calvinists will always resort to language tricks first and foremost as their primary tool because equivocations and half-truths are so easy to get away with.

Logic on the other hand – has very rigid standards Calvinists must comply with if they want to participate in logical discourse. They don’t like adhering to those standards because doing show reveals how irrational their belief system is.

Manipulating language – and manipulating the language of scripture is their strong suit.
And they find they can win most of the time – when they are in discussions with people who can’t discern language tricks.

One law of Logic is the law of non-contradiction. Something cannot be true and false at the same time. This for a determinist is a hard pill to swallow. And you will notice if you look for it – that the vast majority of their arguments are attempts to get around this law.

For example – Lets say Calvin’s god decrees a father rape and murder his 10 year old daughter on January 2019 at exactly 12 noon. That decree is immutable – which means it cannot be changed. That means that human CANNOT DO OTHERWISE than what Calvin’s god has decreed he do. But scripture holds man accountable for his own sin – so the Calvinist has to at least APPEAR biblical. So what is he to do? He MAKES-BELIEVE that the human can somehow negate Calvin’s god’s decree. But the Calvinist knows at some level in his mind that that is against his own doctrine.

John Calvin understood this dilemma. And he resorted to teaching Calvinists that certain thoughts are taboo.
He also teaches what I call *AS-IF* thinking.

The disciple is to
1) Believe that Calvin’s god determines everything in every part – and thus everything occurs infallibly outside of our will.
2) The Calvinist is to go about his day thinking that (1) above is somehow not true

This breaches the law of non-contradiction.
And Calvinists are forced to continuously halt between these two opinions.
That’s why they don’t like logic.

So many good points here; with which I am all too intimately familiar. I have essentially given up discussing the topic with the closest Calvinists in my life. Even though they repeatedly think, speak and live in ways that reveal that they do not believe what their professed theology asserts (much like Piper), there are too many reasons that make them unwilling to confront and deal with these contradictions. So, in order to eliminate the cognitive dissonance, many simply refuse to think about the things that their minds tell them ‘make no sense’. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have never been able to do that for long. My mind won’t let me rest, compelling me to look closer, ask more questions or try and find the kinks in the chain.

I must leave others in God’s hands. I know how difficult it is to allow God to expose and tear down our most cherished idols. I’ve clung to my share, and probably will only with reluctance surrender others Despite what Calvinists assert, I also believe that God never compels us to do anything against our will. And if it’s our particular community’s, or society’s golden calves at stake, it is so hard to let them go. It matters little how much information and reason stare us in the face; if the world were really flat, and we all knew it, very few of us would be brave enough to shout ‘the science is wearing no clothes’. The pressure is just too great to preserve our positions, status, community and personal relationships.

TS00 writes, “It is, however, illogical to assert that God both does and does not control all things, in the same manner at the same time. That is not logically possible, for God or anyone, no matter how limitless the power involved. ”

That is why the Calvinist asserts that does control all things. Good point.

br.d writes, “Therefore – the only events Calvin’s god *CAN* INTERVENE to prevent – are events that are not going to come to pass anyway.”

Therefore – the only events Calvin’s god *CAN* INTERVENE to prevent – are events that are not going to come to pass anyway because of His failure to intervene. God did not intervene to prevent the Jews stoning Stephen; God did intervene to prevent the death of Peter.

br.d
“Therefore – the only events Calvin’s god *CAN* INTERVENE to prevent – are events that are not going to come to pass anyway.”

rhutchin
Therefore – the only events Calvin’s god *CAN* INTERVENE to prevent – are events that are not going to come to pass anyway because of His failure to intervene

br.d
Thank you rhutchin – for an excellent example of the fallacy of circular reasoning. :-]

Calvin’s god is limited to creating events having one of two statuses.
1) RENDERED-CERTAIN:
These are events he knows and believes will come to pass exactly as he decreed they would – and in every part.

2) NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN
These are events he knows and believes are not going to come to pass – because he decreed them as such.

Therefore if Calvin’s god is smart enough to know that he established an event as – not going to come to pass.
Then he should be smart enough to know – there is nothing to intervene.

Unless Calvin’s god happens to be a graven image created by an irrational Calvinist.
That god is guaranteed to be irrational :-]

Are you trying to suggest that God could not intervene to prevent non-events which he never ordained to exist? Or are you daring to question from whence come these non-events, which the God who ordains whatsoever comes to pass did not ordain and does not wish to happen, thus chooses to step in to intervene with? Who are you to argue with God, O man? If God has nothing better to do than prevent non-events caused by non-existent powers, how’s a mere worm like you going to stop him? What else is going to do, with everything settled in eternity past, whistle Dixie? 😉

br.d writes, ‘Don’t you just love how Calvinists MAKE-BELIEVE Calvin’s god intervenes to prevent things he decreed would never come to pass!”

Poor br.d. Did not God intervene to prevent Joseph divorcing Mary? Was it not God who intervened to prevent the death of Peter? Did not God intervene to put a stop to Saul’s rampage against the Jewish believers. It’s not make-believe – God has been active in affecting His will in the world from the beginning.

I have imagined a Screwtape Letters sort of parody of a day in the life of Calvin’s God, as his hapless personal secretary tries to explain why there is nothing on his daily agenda – just like every other day since the creation was completed. Can’t step in and respond to heartfelt prayers – ah, ah, ah, can’t mess with what was forever settled in the heavens. Can’t intervene to stop horrible crimes, wars or tragedies – as they would not be hitting the scene had he not decreed them into existence. Since God is utterly perfect, in being and doings, what is there to change, improve or prevent – ever? But it’s not easy bein’ the angel that has to tell a bored and frustrated God that there isn’t really anything to do but make puffy animal clouds and design new snowflakes – for another thousand years or so.

TS00
But it’s not easy bein’ the angel that has to tell a bored and frustrated God that there isn’t really anything to do

br.d
Good one! :-]
Well if its Calvin’s god – he could spend his time choreographing the worlds biggest fiction show.

In Act one – he deceives Adam – by withholding the truth that he had already RENDERED-CERTAIN Adam disobey.
While commanding Adam to do the opposite.
AS-IF puny little Adam had the power to reverse something RENDERED-CERTAIN by supernatural decree.

In Act two – he deceives Israel – telling them to choose life – after having RENDERED-CERTAIN the opposite.
Second verse – same as the first.

And in the final scene – he gets the ultimate pleasure – throwing thousands of souls into a lake of fire and watching them burn.

TS00 writes, ‘there is nothing on [God’s] daily agenda – just like every other day since the creation was completed.”

Under Calvinism there is plenty. God continually upholds the the universe and all that is in it. The laws of physics and chemistry always operate because God maintains them. God must keep evil and sin in check else the world would soon degenerate into chaos. Plenty for God to do.

br.d quoting Craig, “There are no free agents in rebellion against God, whom God seeks to win through His love, and no one who freely responds to that love and freely gives his love and praise to God in return. ”

Why not? God could easily have determined situations where free agents responded to His love. Nothing is impossible for God.

br.d
– quoting William Lane Craig, “[In Theological Determinism] There are no free agents in rebellion against God, whom God seeks to win through His love, and no one who freely responds to that love and freely gives his love and praise to God in return. ”

rhutchin
Why not? God could easily have determined situations where free agents responded to His love. Nothing is impossible for God.

br.d
If you were a Bible student you would know better than to say “nothing is impossible with God”.
Hebrews 6:18 says “It is impossible for God to lie”

It is impossible for the God of scripture to be wrong.
It is impossible for the God of scripture to know and believe [X] as TRUE and FALSE at the same time.

The God of scripture is constrained by his own nature, character, and perfection.

Dr. Craig is making a statement that is LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with Theological Determinism.

The Calvinist thinks he gains an advantage by embracing Theological Determinism – but he doesn’t like its consequences.

Where it is LOGICALLY INCONSISTENT with scripture – and IN-determinism is LOGICALLY CONSISTENT – with scripture – the Calvinist needs IN-determinism. And IN-determinism cannot exist within a world of Determinism any more than particles exist in a perfect vacuum.

Therefore as a determinist – the only way the Calvinist can have IN-determinism – is to manufacture a FACADE of it.

-quote
“Universal Divine Causal Determinism turns reality into a farce. On the Deterministic view, the whole world becomes a vain and empty spectacle…….the whole spectacle is a charade whose only real actor is God Himself”

He’ll never get it, friend. Whenever inconsistency presents, the Calvinist waves it off with, ‘Nothing is impossible for God.’ As you rightly stated, of course many things are impossible for God, including anything that is inconsistent with his nature, or with logical possibility. But since all of Calvinism is inconsistent with God’s nature, as well as logical possibility, they must constantly punt to ‘Nothing is impossible for God’ as if that solves all of their problems.

That’s exactly right TS00!!
Calvin’s don’t live a world of TRUE vs FALSE
They live in a world where ILLUSIONS are embraced as real.
That’s why they’re language has evolved a large library of deceptive word games.
I feel sorry for them.

br.d writes, “The Calvinist thinks he gains an advantage by embracing Theological Determinism – but he doesn’t like its consequences.”

Actually, the Calvinist incorporates self-eterminism as subordinate within Theological Determinism. All things are not caused by factors outside the will of the person but all things are under God’s control.

Craig writes, ‘This presents a real problem not just for the Calvinist, but for the naturalist. For insofar as naturalism implies that all our thoughts and actions are determined by natural causes outside ourselves, free will is an illusion. But we cannot escape this illusion and so must go on making choices as though we had free will, even though we don’t. Naturalism is thus an unliveable worldview.” Craig denies that Calvinism can subscribe to self-determined actions. RC Sproul writes, “But “determined” here does not mean that some external force coerces the will. Rather it refers to one’s internal motivation or desire. In shorthand the law is this: Our choices are determined by our desires. They remain our choices because they are motivated by our own desires. This is what we call self-determination, which is the essence of freedom.” Sproul, R. C.. Chosen by God (p. 40). Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.. Kindle Edition. So, Craig has to restrain Calvinism to be something it is not in order to argue against it. However, Craig is almost correct to say, “There are no free agents in rebellion against God, whom God seeks to win through His love, and no one who freely responds to that love and freely gives his love and praise to God in return.” The reason for this is not determinism but original sin – the corruption that resulted from Adam’s sin. Remove the effects of original sin through regeneration and God does indeed win through His love.

br.d
And excellent example of the Calvinist trying to fabricate a FACADE of IN-determinism.

The word “self” in the Greek is: “Auto”
And the Greek word for “Determine” in this case is: “nomos

So we have “Automonos” – which in evolves to our current English today as the word: AUTONOMY

And AUTONOMY is non-existent in Theological Determinism.
AUTONOMY doesn’t exist within Theological Determinism any more than particles exist within a perfect vacuum.

“Self-Determinism” is predicated on the presupposition that the SELF (not the THEOS) is the TRUE DETERMINER.

And in Theological Determinism the TRUE DETERMINER is the THEOS.

By virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god FIRST CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a persons’ brain – EVERYTHING that processes within a person is nothing more than the DETERMINATION of the THEOS.

br.d writes, ““Self-Determinism” is predicated on the presupposition that the SELF (not the THEOS) is the TRUE DETERMINER.
And in Theological Determinism the TRUE DETERMINER is the THEOS.”

As a person has a will that is subordinate to God’s will, so a person determines what he will do subordinate to God’s will. Where that which a person determines to do clashes with that which God has determined that he do, then God prevails. Where there is no clash, the person does as he has determined to do. In the account of Joseph and his brothers, their determination to kill Joseph was thwarted by God while their determination to sell Joseph was not. The brothers determined to sell Joseph and God, as the final arbiter of all that happens, gave them freedom to carry out their plan..

br.d
“Self-Determinism” is predicated on the presupposition that the SELF (not the THEOS) is the TRUE DETERMINER.
And in Theological Determinism the TRUE DETERMINER is the THEOS.”

rhutchin
As a person has a will that is subordinate to God’s will, so a person determines what he will do subordinate to God’s will.
Where that which a person determines to do clashes with that which God has determined that he do, then God prevails.

br.d
FALSE
The word “subordinate” here is simply designed to MASQUERADE a FACADE of IN-determinism.

In Theological Determinism – the THEOS determines ****ALL***** things with out exception.

Take [X] and subtract *ALL* from it
Now what do you have left?
ZERO!
That is what is left over for the creature to determine.

Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever occur in a person’s brain.

In that scheme the idea of a person’s will clashing with Calvin’s god’s will is nothing more than a Calvinist ILLUSION.

John Calvin:
“Men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)

Calvinist Paul Helm:
“Not only is every atom and molecule, EVERY THOUGHT AND DESIRE, kept in being by God, but EVERY TWIST AND TURN OF EACH OF THESE is UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL OF GOD”. (The Providence of God).

br.d writes, “FALSE
The word “subordinate” here is simply designed to MASQUERADE a FACADE of IN-determinism.
In Theological Determinism – the THEOS determines ****ALL***** things with out exception.”

“Subordinate” means that one is subject tot he control of another. Man’s will is subordinate to God’s will as God is the final arbiter of all things and can act to prevent anything man seeks to do. The example is Joseph and his brothers. The brothers first sought to kill Joseph but God said not; they then sought to sell Joseph and this God was pleased to happen as it fit His plans. God, as final arbiter, determined the outcome.

Then, “Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever occur in a person’s brain.”

Thus, rendering certain the thoughts of a person that originate from his sin nature.

Then, “In that scheme the idea of a person’s will clashing with Calvin’s god’s will is nothing more than a Calvinist ILLUSION.”

Not an illusion as reflected in the example of Joseph and his brothers.

rhutchin
“Subordinate” means that one is subject tot he control of another. Man’s will is subordinate to God’s will as God is the final arbiter of all things and can act to prevent anything man seeks to do.

br.d
Nice try – but this is you trying to fabricate a FACADE

In Theological Determinism it follows:

Man can *ONLY* “seek” what Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVES – and then RENDERS-CERTAIN.

Your still trying to wrap Theological Determinism in the sheep’s-skin of IN-determinism

rhutchin
The example is Joseph and his brothers. The brothers first sought to kill Joseph but God said not

br.d
More FACADES

In Calvinism the idea that man can have a thought without Calvin’s god RENDERING-CERTAIN that thought before man exists – is an ILLUSION

Joseph’s brothers could not have even had the thought in their minds to kill Joseph unless Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) FIRST-CONCEIVED they have that thought and then RENDERED-CERTAIN they have that thought.

rhutchin
God, as final arbiter, determined the outcome.

br.d
The term “arbiter” is defined as having “The power of judgement”

Calvin’s god is **ONLY** “arbiter” of ANYTHING that comes to pass.

This is a Calvinist’s desperate attempt at MASQUERADING Theological Determinism as something it isn’t (i.e., IN-determinism)

rhutchin
Thus, rendering certain the thoughts of a person that originate from his sin nature.

br.d
FALSE

John Calvin
-quote
“Men can deliberately do nothing unless He [Calvin’s god] inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)

Everything that comes to pass ORIGINATES in the mind of Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world)

Therefore:
In Calvinism the idea of a person’s will clashing with Calvin’s god’s will is nothing more than a Calvinist ILLUSION.”

rhutchin
Not an illusion as reflected in the example of Joseph and his brothers.

br.d
BUT *IS* an ILLUSION as reflected in the doctrines of John Calvin.
That’s why I never conflate Theological Determinism with scripture which predominantly affirms the opposite.

While your busy fabricating things – why don’t you make a paper space-ship.
Climb into it and explore Jupiter
I’m sure that won’t be an ILLUSION for you either! :-]

This is the tactic that leaves me goin’ “I can’t believe you just did that!”

Not content to simply ignore how scripture contradicts their deterministic system, they actually have the nerve to quote the contradictory verses and pretend as if they are in harmony with Calvinism. I honestly sometimes wonder if they are trying to gaslight logical thinking people into utter madness.

TS00
Not content to simply ignore how scripture contradicts their deterministic system, they actually have the nerve to quote the contradictory verses and pretend as if they are in harmony with Calvinism.

br.d
Yes I agree!

I’ve come to believe their minds are so ensnared in that double-think brief system – they actually see it in scripture.
For them the authors of scripture are double-minded just like they are.

If Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world RENDERED-CERTAIN that Joseph would not reject Marry.
And Calvin’s god is TRULY Omniscient
Then at the foundation of the world he knows and believes – when the time comes – Joseph will in fact not reject Mary.

Therefore if Calvin’s god is TRULY Omniscient – then he knows and believes there is nothing to intervene to prevent.

Unless perhaps Calvin’s god wants to choreograph a FAKE presentation of himself intervening to prevent something.

This is why William Lane Craig points out:
“In Theological Determinism the whole spectacle is a charade whose only real actor is God Himself”

br.d writes:
“Therefore if Calvin’s god is TRULY Omniscient – then he knows and believes there is nothing to intervene to prevent.

Unless perhaps Calvin’s god wants to choreograph a FAKE presentation of himself intervening to prevent something.”

There’s the rub. The only way this ‘pretense’ makes any sense is if God is trying to make it look like those who he intends to hang are actually responsible for bringing to pass all the horrific evil this world has ever seen – rather than him, the God who ordained and brings into being ‘whatsoever comes to pass’.

What an awful god they have fabricated; and I pity the poor folk who simply don’t understand it all.

TS00
What an awful god they have fabricated; and I pity the poor folk who simply don’t understand it all.

br.d
Yes I totally agree – its very sad to know a person can be so easily ensnared into irrational thinking.

Dr. Erich Fromm – a Social Psychologist – studied the writings and biographies of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and later followers of Calvin. He was interested in a certain aspect of their psychology.

Parts of his research he wrote in a book titled “Escape from freedom”

Interesting title don’t you think?

Some Calvinist writings displayed what he called a “psychology of dread”.
And others displayed a “psychology of uncertainty”

Here are some excerpts:

Within the psychological effects of Calvin’s doctrine, as it was with Luther’s, fundamental doubts result in a person’s quest for absolute certainty; but though the doctrine of predestination gave such certainty. The doubt forever remained in the background of the believer’s mind, and had to be silenced again and again by an overgrowing, emphasis, that the religious community to which one belonged, represented that part of mankind which had been chosen by God.

Why God chooses one and condemns the other is a secret into which man must not try to delve. God does so because it pleased him to show his unlimited power.

In Calvin’s conceptions of his god – in spite of all his attempts to preserve some nebulous idea of divine justice and love, it has all the features of a tyrant, without any quality of certain or predictable love or justice

In blatant contradiction to the language of the New Testament, Calvin denies the supreme role of divine love, and says “For what the Schoolmen advance concerning the priority of charity to faith and hope, is a mere reverie of a distempered imagination.

One possible way to escape this unbearable state of uncertainty and a paralyzing feeling of one’s own insignificance, is the very trait which became so prominent in Calvinism: the development of a hyper activity and striving for productivity.

Activity in this sense assumes a compulsory quality: the individual has to be active in order to subdue underlying feelings of doubt and powerlessness.

This kind of effort and activity works to manufacture an artificial sense of confidence and conciliation.

However, human effort in Calvinist doctrine has yet another psychological meaning. The fact that one did not tire in that unceasing effort, and the one succeeded in one’s moral as well as secular work, functions as a more or less distinct sign of being one of the chosen ones.

The irrationality of such compulsive effort is that the activity is not meant to create a desired end, but merely served to function as an indicator – of one’s predestined fate.

br.d writes, “Therefore if Calvin’s god is TRULY Omniscient – then he knows and believes there is nothing to intervene to prevent.”

The execution of God’s plan is an integral part of His omniscience. Of course, Joseph is not going to refuse Him, not Paul, nor anyone else. “I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.”

br.d
“Therefore if Calvin’s god is TRULY Omniscient – then he knows and believes there is nothing to intervene to prevent.”

rhutchin
The execution of God’s plan is an integral part of His omniscience

br.d
What is LOGICALLY FALSE with my statement?

Calvin’s god cannot alter what he (at the foundation of the world) created as RENDERED-CERTAIN.
These are events he (at the foundation of the world) knows and believes will come to pass exactly as he decreed them.
If anything intervenes to prevent them – then omniscience fails – because Calvin’s god in such case would have (at the foundation of the world) known and believed something that was wrong.

This eliminates all events that are RENDERED-CERTAIN as candidates for events that can be intervened to prevent.
Even Calvin’s god can’t prevent them.

The only events you have left – are those NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN.
And per Calvin’s doctrine those events are not going to come to pass anyway – because Calvin’s god did not create them with the status of being RENDERED-CERTAIN.

The Calvinist wants to embrace Theological Determinism – but then he bumps up against its consequences.
In order to align with scripture he needs the very IN-determinism that he adamantly rejects.
The only way he can accomplish this is with double-think.

rhutchin wrote, “The execution of God’s plan is an integral part of His omniscience.”
br.d responded, “What is LOGICALLY FALSE with my statement?
Calvin’s god cannot alter what he (at the foundation of the world) created as RENDERED-CERTAIN.”

br.d cannot explain how it is logically false. God’s omniscience encompasses all things including His actions. So God’s impregnation of Mary is part of His omniscience. Certainly God will not alter what He rendered certain, but He could have rendered something else certain had He wanted. God could have intervened to prevent the stoning of Stephen had He wanted but He did not.

Then, ‘In order to align with scripture he needs the very IN-determinism that he adamantly rejects.”

I don’t see why this is true, and you don’t seem able to explain why you think it must be true.

rhutchin
God’s omniscience encompasses all things including His actions. ….Certainly God will not alter what He rendered certain,

br.d
Correction:
Calvin’s god **CANNOT** alter what he has RENDERED-CERTAIN.

rhutchin
but He could have rendered something else certain had He wanted.

br.d
Totally Irrelevant red herring

rhutchin
God could have intervened to prevent the stoning of Stephen had He wanted but He did not.

br.d
If Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) RENDERED-CERTAIN Stephen’s stoning exactly as it occurs – then at the foundation of the world Calvin’s god knows and believes Stephen’s stoning exactly as it occurs.

If then anything alters in any way Stephen’s stoning from occurring as such – then what Calvin’s god knows and believes (at the foundation of the world) is false. And Omniscience fails.

This rules out any events that are RENDERED-CERTAIN as events which can be intervened to prevent.

The only events which Calvin’s god can intervene to prevent – are events which are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN.
And those events are not going to come to pass anyway.

This is another example of what I’ve stated before
‘In order to align with scripture the Calvinist needs the very IN-determinism that he adamantly rejects.”

rhutchin
I don’t see why this is true, and you don’t seem able to explain why you think it must be true.

br.d
Of course you don’t see it – if you did all of those Calvinist ILLUSIONS might come crashing down. :-]

Like I stated before:
By virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god FIRST CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a person’s brain – for the Calvinist to want to call that “Intervening” in a person’s decisions is exactly what Dr. Lane Craig says it is – a farce.

rhutchin
God’s omniscience encompasses all things including His actions. ….Certainly God will not alter what He rendered certain,

**Here, is Calvinism stated properly. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. It cannot be altered, as br.d proceeds to assert.

br.d
Correction:
Calvin’s god **CANNOT** alter what he has RENDERED-CERTAIN.

rhutchin
but He could have rendered something else certain had He wanted.

br.d
Totally Irrelevant red herring

**This is where rhutchin attempts to pull a fast one. If Stephen was stoned – and he was – that means that, under Calvinism, mind you – God ordained and rendered it certain. Rhutchin earlier acknowledges that ‘God will not alter what He rendered certain, and yet now tries to slither out of that necessity and sneak in a Calvinistic impossibility:

rhutchin
God could have intervened to prevent the stoning of Stephen had He wanted but He did not.

**As both parties agreed, God could NOT have intervened to prevent the stoning of Stephen, if it was rendered certain. Thus, rhutchin must either give up the claim that God ordains and renders certain whatsoever comes to pass in eternity past, as Calvinism asserts, or he must give up the false notion that God can intervene in affairs which he has determined in eternity pass, which is EVERYTHING, according to Calvinism.

God ordains, unchangably whatsoever comes to pass; nor can anything possibly come to pass unless God has previously ordained it to be so.
Since nothing can possibly occur unless God has unchangably ordained it, for God to have something with which to ‘intervene’ or ‘prevent’ he would first have to ordain it to be about to come to pass, and then intervene to prevent it from coming to pass.
This would entail God first ordaining a ‘possibility’, that is not going to come to pass in order to prevent it from coming to pass.

TS00 writes, “Since nothing can possibly occur unless God has unchangably ordained it, for God to have something with which to ‘intervene’ or ‘prevent’ he would first have to ordain it to be about to come to pass, and then intervene to prevent it from coming to pass.”

Which only means that God ordains His actions together with man’s actions (including his thoughts) and ordains both.

rhutchin
Which only means that God ordains His actions together with man’s actions (including his thoughts) and ordains both.

br.d
Calvin’s god can (at the foundation of the world) can ordain anything about himself he wants to.
He can ordain himself to jump up and down and act like a frog at midnight on January 1st 2019 – if that what he wants.

But once that is RENDERED-CERTAIN he **CANNOT** intervene to prevent it without compromising omniscience.

That leaves only events that are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN as candidates for intervention or alteration.
And per Calvin’s doctrine – events NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN are NOT going to come to pass anyway.

br.d writes:
“Calvin’s god can (at the foundation of the world) can ordain anything about himself he wants to.
He can ordain himself to jump up and down and act like a frog at midnight on January 1st 2019 – if that what he wants.

But once that is RENDERED-CERTAIN he **CANNOT** intervene to prevent it without compromising omniscience.

That leaves only events that are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN as candidates for intervention or alteration.
And per Calvin’s doctrine – events NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN are NOT going to come to pass anyway.”

Let’s say it is Rhutchin who was ordained to ‘jump up and down and act like a frog at midnight on January 1st 2019’. You and rh both agree that, once rendered certain, this decree cannot be changed, prevented or intervened with. Good so far.

But “God could have rendered a different outcome certain had He wanted”, responds rh. Indeed, God could have ordained that rh would kiss a beautiful girl and shout ‘Happy New Year!’, or that he would be sleeping soundly in his bed. However, as you point out, that has nothing to do with whether or not God can prevent or intervene anything if he has previously ordained everything. He cannot.

Cornered. Rh concedes. Hardly.

Well, says rh, changing tactics, this “only means that God ordains His actions together with man’s actions (including his thoughts) and ordains both.” Which is simply an attempt to use a lot of words and pretend as if they actually mean something.

It matters not the slightest what ‘means’ God uses to bring about the ‘whatsoever’ which comes to pass (which is everything). He can plant thoughts in man’s brain, or in some fashion create a brain that is pre-programmed with all of the hardware and software to produced the desired, long ago ordained results. Or He might engage any mystical, secretive means of which we are unaware. IT DOESN’T MATTER!

The Theos, under Calvinism, determines all things. Always. Period. Ordained them in eternity past. Irresistibly. Unchangably. Which part of this doesn’t rh understand?

There is nothing now with which God can intervene or prevent. Nothing exists, nothing has or can come into being unless he himself ordained it into existence. All that’s left, in an attempt to disguise God’s cruelty and injustice, is a fake, deliberately deceptive appearance of an ability to do something other than what was predetermined long before anyone was born. This is what Calvinists try to pass off as ‘man’s ability to choose’. This ability to ‘choose according to one’s desires’ is indeed an illusion, as if any man can possibly desire and choose something other than what God has already ordained to come to pass. At best, a man might be deceived into thinking he freely chooses his own actions, and can do as he desires, but it is never so under Calvinistic Theistic Determinism.

The possibly of choosing anything, EVER, other than what has been pre-programmed, is a deception, a fake, an utter unreality or, as br.d calls it, an illusion. There is no such ability to make a genuine free choice – all has and ever will come to pass EXACTLY as the Theos determined, long, long ago. There is no choice, no sin, nor responsibility for one’s actions that demands death. There exists, under Calvinism, only Calvin’s horrible decree and thousands of Calvinists trying to explain it away.

These pitiable, double-talking, deluded men are desperately trying to believe their cruel, deceptive God is just in sovereignly ordaining WHATSOEVER exists, but punishing helpless, obedient men whose every thought word and action, even their very existence, has been ordained, decreed and irresistibly brought to pass just as God – and God alone – has chosen.

TS00 writes, “However, as you point out, that has nothing to do with whether or not God can prevent or intervene anything if he has previously ordained everything. He cannot.”

After God ordains X; there is no reason for God to change what is to happen. Prior to God ordaining X, God can decide to intervene in any event and having made that decision, the event is ordained.

Then, ‘He can plant thoughts in man’s brain, or in some fashion create a brain that is pre-programmed with all of the hardware and software to produced the desired, long ago ordained results.”

Or God can create man with a nature that generates thoughts without any action by God (other than to sustain the life of the man).

Then, “The Theos, under Calvinism, determines all things. Always. Period. Ordained them in eternity past. Irresistibly. Unchangably. Which part of this doesn’t rh understand?”

We both agree on this. You seem to have a problem with God using the choices of men as the means to accomplish that which He has ordained. We have the example of Joseph and his brothers or the Assyrians of Isaiah 10.

Then, “There is nothing now with which God can intervene or prevent. Nothing exists, nothing has or can come into being unless he himself ordained it into existence.”

Correct. God made His decisions on all things and they stand – God will not learn anything new that might precipitate a different outcome.

Then, “This ability to ‘choose according to one’s desires’ is indeed an illusion,”

However, people do end up making choices that reflect their desires. So, what’s the issue?

Then, “The possibly of choosing anything, EVER, other than what has been pre-programmed, is a deception, a fake, an utter unreality or, as br.d calls it, an illusion. ”

So, a person has been programmed to choose according to his desires. What else might serve as the basis for his choices?

rhutchin
Or God can create man with a nature that generates thoughts without any action by God (other than to sustain the life of the man).

br.d
In theological Determinism this is FALSE

John Calvin:
“Men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God)

The hand of God rules the interior affections…THEY CAN DO NOTHING unless he worked in their hearts to **MAKE** them will before they acted.

Loraine Boettner
-quote:
[If we attribute to man as having the ability to be] A FIRST CAUSE, and ***ORIGINAL SPRING*** of action…..we have as many semi-gods as we have free wills…..we cannot allow this independence to man”

rhutchin
However, people do end up making choices that reflect their desires. So, what’s the issue?

br.d
In Calvinism – man is *ONLY* free to desire what Calvin’s god programs him to desire – nothing more – nothing less.
A Calvinist is a DECEPTION ARTIST who attempts to paint a picture of autonomy beyond that.

Calvinist Paul Helm:
“Not only is every atom and molecule, EVERY THOUGHT AND DESIRE, kept in being by God, but every twist and turn of each of these is UNDER THE DIRECT CONTROL OF GOD”. (The Providence of God).

He can plant thoughts in man’s brain, or in some fashion create a brain that is pre-programmed with all of the hardware and software to produce the desired, long ago ordained results. Or He might engage any mystical, secretive means of which we are unaware.
IT DOESN’T MATTER!

Calvin’s god pre-programming all of the hardware and sofware to produce the desired outcome.

br.d writes, “But once that is RENDERED-CERTAIN he **CANNOT** intervene to prevent it without compromising omniscience.
That leaves only events that are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN as candidates for intervention or alteration.”

Except that God has rendered certain His intervention in certain events. Again, we have the example of Joseph and his brothers that you cannot refute and obviously, have made no effort to do so.

br.d
“But once that is RENDERED-CERTAIN he **CANNOT** intervene to prevent it without compromising omniscience.
That leaves only events that are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN as candidates for intervention or alteration.”

rhutchin
Except that God has rendered certain His intervention in certain events.

br.d
There is nothing to prevent Calvin’s god from adding “interactions” between himself and the creature – as part of what he RENDERS-CERTAIN come to pass.

Just like a puppeteer can add “interactions” between himself and the puppets as a part of his puppet show.

But by virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god *MUST* FIRST-CONCEIVE and RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a person’s brain – trying to paint that process as “intervening” in that person’s decisions is DECEPTIVE language.

Calvinists who try to paint that picture are simply operating as DECEPTION ARTISTS.

Calvin’s god is doing nothing more than “interacting” with those neurological impulses he “choreographed” to exist within that person’s brain. He is essentially “interacting” with himself.

Painting that process as “intervention” is a DECEIVER attempting to MASQUERADE the creature having autonomy that doesn’t exist.

William Lane Craig agrees:
-quote
God would be like a child who sets up his toy soldiers and moves them about his play world, pretending that they are real persons whose every motion is not in fact of his own doing and pretending that they merit praise or blame.

br.d writes, ‘But by virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god *MUST* FIRST-CONCEIVE and RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a person’s brain – trying to paint that process as “intervening” in that person’s decisions is DECEPTIVE language. ”

Certainly, God has conceived all things and nothing will happen that He did not first conceive. The neurological impulses that take shape in the person’s mind arise from the person himself facilitated by his unique nature.

br.d
‘But by virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god *MUST* FIRST-CONCEIVE and RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a person’s brain – trying to paint that process as “intervening” in that person’s decisions is DECEPTIVE language. ”

rhutchin
Certainly, God has conceived all things and nothing will happen that He did not first conceive. The neurological impulses that take shape in the person’s mind arise from the person himself facilitated by his unique nature.

br.d
FALSE
This is another failed attempt at semantic word games by presenting one equivocal term after another.

The word “arise” is derived from the Old English “arisan” – which mean “having a beginning”, “coming into being”, SPRING FROM, ORIGINATE”.

In Calvinism – each and every neurological impulse that Calvin’s god FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN – have their beginning at the foundation of the world – they SPRING FROM, and ORIGINATE in and from the mind of Calvin’s god.

Calvinists do not know the mechanism Calvin’s god uses to transmit them – from his mind – or actuate them in a person’s mind.

In Calvinism *ALL* things have their being at the foundation of the world where man does not exist to ORIGINATE anything.

To the man – these things occur inevitably and unavoidably – predetermined – pre-programmed – predestined.
The man does not have a say in the matter.
He cannot countervail what is fated by supernatural decree.

What thoughts/choices/desires/actions Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN for each man – no mortal man can resist.

Loraine Boettner
-quote:
[If we attribute to man as having the ability to be] A *FIRST CAUSE*, and ***ORIGINAL SPRING*** of action…..we have as many semi-gods as we have free wills…..we cannot allow this independence to man”

William Lane Craig agrees:
-quote
[In Calvinism] they [humans] are mere INSTRUMENTS by means of which God acts to produce some effect, much like a man using a stick to move a stone. Of course, secondary causes retain all their properties and powers as INTERMEDIATE causes…..just as a stick retains its properties and powers which make it suitable for the purposes of the one who uses it…… But these intermediate causes are not agents themselves but mere INSTRUMENTAL causes, for they HAVE NO POWER TO INITIATIVE ACTION. -end quote

There’s no use, is there? But you know that. Rh cannot acknowledge the truth that any ‘choice’ that man appears to make is merely a controlled means by which God’s predetermined decrees are rendered. Making God the sole cause of whatsoever comes to pass – as Calvinism asserts – including all evil and sin, which Calvinism attempts to deny. The Calvinist knows that if he gives up this charade he will be forced to acknowledge the god Calvin has manufactured is cruel and unjust, determining sin and evil, then punishing, as it were, the unresisting ‘stick’ in his hand for hitting the dog, at his irresistible command. So, the games must continue, the pretense of ‘not getting’ what you mean, and stringing together, as you pointed out, equivocal words in hopes of confusing people. They have no other options but to play these games, or admit their error.

TS00,
Yes. It was the name calling and “pretending” like we had never defined something. Killed me: Brian gave 4-5 explanations of John 6:44 and it was always, “why dont one of you say what you mean.” I dont respond anymore. But you have a lot to say about passages and ideas, just dont jump on the merry-go-round.

I suggest displaying the thousands of passages that the Bible gives us that show the way God created His world.

“And then when they want to excuse Calvin’s god from being the author of evil
The only verses they have – are the very verses they normally over-rule. ”

This happens over and over. We show on paper how dastardly (certainly not “good”) such a plan would be that God would purposely, before creation, think of a plan where He —purposely— created for damnation the vast majority of those created in His image, and then would “pretend” that He loves them and would tell us that Christ died for them “in some way, just not the same way,” —- and their response is “God is good.”

What? That’s the point! You cannot pooh-pooh us and calls us “universalists” one minute because we say “God is good” and then when we point out all the non-good elements of such a dastardly plan, use that same verse. Such hypocrisy!

FOH
What? That’s the point! You cannot pooh-pooh us and calls us “universalists” one minute because we say “God is good” and then when we point out all the non-good elements of such a dastardly plan, use that same verse. Such hypocrisy!

br.d
Yes you nailed it FOH.

I’ve always said
“In all of protestant Christianity – Calvinists consistently win the prize of being the most subtle beast in the field”

br.d
I can see this is going to devolve into your “you can’t explain it” tail-chasing routine.

Since there are things you ask for – knowing full well that your asking is nothing but pretense
wisdom dictates – its better to let you provide those things all by yourself.
That way when you do – your pretense will be visible – and you’ll look silly trying to wiggle out of it.

br.d writes, “Since there are things you ask for – knowing full well that your asking is nothing but pretense
wisdom dictates – its better to let you provide those things all by yourself.
That way when you do – your pretense will be visible – and you’ll look silly trying to wiggle out of it.”

TS00
So, the games must continue, the pretense of ‘not getting’ what you mean, and stringing together, as you pointed out, equivocal words in hopes of confusing people. They have no other options but to play these games, or admit their error.

br.d
Yes – you have it exactly right TS00

Calvinists have a very large library of slippery words they use to manipulate the unsuspecting.
If one slippery word doesn’t work – they’ll pull out another one – and another one – and another one.

I feel sorry for them – they’re patriotism to a man so blinds them – they can’t discern that as dishonesty.
And how that dishonesty is like a mark on their forehead which differentiates them from Christ.

They navigate from one subtle dishonest word to another gambling that most Christians won’t discern it.
But once a person is alerted to the game – one will start to look for it – and find it always at play.

One of them here is a Calvinist pastor – who says its not dishonest for a Calvinist to tell a non-believer God loves them desiring their salvation, because: -quote “Non-Elect were not misled because the legitimate offer of the gospel was not intended for them.”

One has to be blinded to not see that type of blatant dishonesty – as void of Jesus Christ.

br.d
‘Calvinists have a very large library of slippery words they use to manipulate the unsuspecting.”

rhutchin
That’s your basic argument. When you start arguing the Scriptures with the Calvinists, we will see that you know what you are talking about. Calvinists always seem to win the war on Scripture.

br.d
Winning a war is a PERFECT description of what drives Calvinists.
Unfortunately – when one uses dishonest means – to win an earthly war – one separates himself from Christ.

On the issue of scripture
Since manipulating language is Calvinism’s strong suit
It makes perfect sense that Calvinists would find manipulating scripture as a primary tool in their toolbox.
The standards which govern the use of language are loose enough to allow for a library of word gaming strategies.

However, the standards that govern LOGIC on the other hand are very rigid.
They allow for one to discern falsehoods.

br.d writes, “On the issue of scripture
Since manipulating language is Calvinism’s strong suit
It makes perfect sense that Calvinists would find manipulating scripture as a primary tool in their toolbox.”

br.d still cannot argue from the Scriptures. Still no evidence that he knows what he is talking about.

br.d,
Can I suggest that you do what TS00 will likely start doing….. not take the bait. The ole “never uses Scripture” or “never says what he means”. It just clutters up our mailboxes to see all these merry-go-round circles.

Just post your good stuff from Scripture, or interesting ideas from Craig and Plantinga….. but then dont take the bait when the one-liners are shot across the bow. In the long run it makes it all that much harder for young people looking for answers to find them in all the round-n-round. Which might even be what the purpose of the circles is all about.

br.d writes, ‘In Calvinism – each and every neurological impulse that Calvin’s god FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN – have their beginning at the foundation of the world – they SPRING FROM, and ORIGINATE in and from the mind of Calvin’s god.”

br.d
In Calvinism – each and every neurological impulse that Calvin’s god FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN – have their beginning at the foundation of the world – they SPRING FROM, and ORIGINATE in and from the mind of Calvin’s god.”

rhutchin
They originate in the mind of the person.

br.d
Yeh right – you just keep on telling yourself that
*AS-IF* that person existed when Calvin’s god FIRST-CONCEIVED them.
*AS-IF* that person has the power to bring them into existence all by himself.

Funny how a Calvinist will accuse others of exalting man – ascribing to man aspects of sovereignty – robbing them from god.

Then the Calvinist could care less – when he does that very thing. :-]

rhutchin
“The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.” (Proverbs 16)

br.d
“Thank you for quoting a verse that affirms IN-determinism.”

rhutchin
So you claim. How about explaining what makes your claim true.

br.d
First lets make sure we re-affirm definitions.

Theological Determinism:
Theological Determinism is a form of pre-determinism which states that *ALL* events without exception are pre-ordained, or/and predestined to happen, by a THEOS. Events which are predestined occur inevitably and unavoidabley. They are fated to occur.

Now in addition to that Theological Determinism (ala Calvinism) states that *ALL* things are FIRST-CONCEIVED and then RENDERED-CERTAIN at the foundation of the world – by Calvin’s god.

This would obviously include every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a man’s brain.

Now IN-determinism states that *ALL* events which come to pass are *NOT* pre-determined, predestined, etc.

So now lets look at the verse you quoted:

“The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.” (Proverbs 16)

Now you can tell me where this verse EXPLICITLY states a THEOS at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN – that mans plans and steps.

I’m sure you’re indoctrinated to see EXACTLY THAT in every verse of the Bible.

But you’ll have to contort both of your legs 3 times around your head to make that work for me.

1 To humans belong the plans of the heart,
but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue.

2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.

3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.
—————

He even says “to humans belong the plans of the heart”—- When is the Lord mentioned? “answers of the tongue.” (after!)

A “person’s” ways (he is making his ways)….THEN the Lord weighs his motives (the Lord does not put the motives or the ways in there).

Commit to the Lord …..and then….. the Lord will establish.

br.d., Let’s post Scripture like this. Remember it was the Calvinist who (by accident) brought us to this passage….which seems to indicate that man originates some things and God stands by (not being the originator of that thing).

br.d writes, ‘The verse (quoted by a Cavinist as a proof text no less!!) says that “man plans his ways.” When? When does the Lord direct? After man has planned and when man is stepping!”

This does not affirm indeterminism as it does not address the basis for a person to make his plans. The Calvinist denies indeterminism saying that a plan plans according to desires and motives – a man’s plans are self determined. The verse affirms God’s sovereignty over man and man’s subordination to God. It neither says, nor implies anything about the neurological impulses at work in the man’s brain.

Again, you cannot substantiate your claim, “Thank you for quoting a verse that affirms IN-determinism.”

br.d
“Now after *ALL* [X] have been determined before man exists.
How may [X] are there left over – for man to determine?”

rhutchin
God makes certain the self-determined actions of people.

br.d
In Theological Determinism – man is NOT the determiner of his determinations – Calvin’s god is.

I would leave it at that – but we have some really good examples of Calvinism’s deceptive language in your statement.

Firstly:
The words “makes certain” are used as replacement words for “determines”.
They strategically hide the fact that Calvin’s god is the determiner of ALL aspects of man – in EVERY part.
They seek to hide the fact that man is NOT the determiner of his determinations – Calvin’s god is.

Secondly – we have the term “self-determine”:
This is also designed to be deceptive – because it works to paint a picture of AUTONOMY which doesn’t exist.
The English word “Self” is derived from the Greek “Auto”.
The English word “determine” here is used to paint a picture of “governed”
And the Greek word for “self-governed” is “Autonomos” – which in English is AUTONOMY.

So this term is strategically used to make man *APPEAR* to have a measure of AUTONOMY he does not have.

rhutchin
but still subordinate to God.

br.d
Here we have the term “subordinate” – this term is also deceptive.

A much more TRUTHFUL term would be “subjected”.
The word “subordinate” again is designed to make man *APPEAR* to have a form of freedom he does not have in Theological Determinism.

rhutchin
Theological Determinism says that God determines by coercing the outcomes He determines.

br.d
rhutchin – sometimes you remind me of the “banana man” in the old Captain Kangaroo show.
He was a clown who could pull out a never-ending string of bananas from his jacket pocket.

What you pull out are a never-ending string of imaginative assertions.
Which I can only assume you auto-magically believe are true immediately after your mind thinks them. :-]

If your assertion here were true – Calvinist Neil Anderson of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC would reject it.
But here he affirms Theological Determinism as consistent within Calvinism.
-quote
It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism…..
Take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold

And here is a quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy – on Jonathon Edwards
-quote
Jonathon Edwards “Freedom of the Will” defends Theological Determinism.
I hardly doubt Edwards holds to a THEOS who determines by coercing outcomes.

br.d writes, “Theological Determinism:
Theological Determinism is a form of pre-determinism which states that *ALL* events without exception are pre-ordained, or/and predestined to happen, by a THEOS. Events which are predestined occur inevitably and unavoidabley. They are fated to occur.”

With the means by which events come about governed by the Theos but not initiated by the Theos.

Then, ‘Now in addition to that Theological Determinism (ala Calvinism) states that *ALL* things are FIRST-CONCEIVED and then RENDERED-CERTAIN at the foundation of the world – by Calvin’s god.”

In other words, God is sovereign and rules and overrules His creation but does not initiate each and every event. Consistent with Proverbs 16, “The mind of man plans his way,…” but being subordinate to God, “But the LORD directs his steps.”

Then, “Now IN-determinism states that *ALL* events which come to pass are *NOT* pre-determined, predestined, etc.”

What does that mean? Does it mean that people make all their decisions free of bias or motive?

Then, “Now you can tell me where this verse EXPLICITLY states a THEOS at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN – that mans plans and steps.”

It doesn’t. The verse affirms God’s sovereignty over the man and man’s subordination to God’s rule.

The verse does not affirm indeterminism which was your claim. You cannot substantiate your claim.

br.d writes, “Theological Determinism:
Theological Determinism is a form of pre-determinism which states that *ALL* events without exception are pre-ordained, or/and predestined to happen, by a THEOS. Events which are predestined occur inevitably and unavoidably. They are fated to occur.”

rhutchin
With the means by which events come about governed by the Theos but not initiated by the Theos.

br.d
It means exactly what the statement says it means
Trying to reword it to make it *APPEAR* IN-determinstic is dishonest.

‘Now in addition to that Theological Determinism (ala Calvinism) states that *ALL* things are FIRST-CONCEIVED and then RENDERED-CERTAIN at the foundation of the world – by Calvin’s god.”

rhutchin
In other words, God is sovereign and rules and overrules His creation but does not initiate each and every event. Consistent with Proverbs 16, “The mind of man plans his way,…” but being subordinate to God, “But the LORD directs his steps.”

br.d
It means EXACTLY what the statement says it means.
Trying to reword it to make it *APPEAR* IN-determinstic is dishonest.

“Now IN-determinism states that *ALL* events which come to pass are *NOT* pre-determined, predestined, etc.”

rhutchin
What does that mean? Does it mean that people make all their decisions free of bias or motive?

br.d
It means exactly what is stated.
A THEOS at the foundation of the world does NOT pre-determine/predestine a ALL things.

Now you can tell me where this verse EXPLICITLY states a THEOS at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN – that mans plans and steps.”
rhutchin

rhutchin
It doesn’t.

br.d
Thank you for providing a verse that affirms IN-determinism!

rhutchin
The verse affirms God’s sovereignty over the man and man’s subordination to God’s rule.
The verse does not affirm indeterminism which was your claim. You cannot substantiate your claim.

br.d
In LOGIC FALSE is the LOGICAL negation (in mathematical terms the reciprocal) of TRUE
Where you don’t have FALSE – by logical implication you have TRUE
Where you don’t have TRUE – by logical implication you have FALSE
A statement that does not EXPLICITLY assert FALSE – by logical implication affirms TRUE

Take this statement for example: It is TRUE that rhutchin is a frog.

If this statement does not EXPLICITLY assert a premise as TRUE – then by logical implication it is FALSE – rhutchin is not a frog.

A statement that does not EXPLICITLY assert TRUE does not have to EXPLICITLY assert FALSE in order for FALSE to become the logical implication.

Theological Determinism and IN-determinism by definition have the same relationship as TRUE vs FALSE.
Theological Determinism mutually excludes IN-determinism

As long a statement does not EXPLICITLY assert Theological Determinism it affirms the opposite the same exact way that not EXPLICITLY stating FALSE affirms TRUE.

Therefore – I thank you for providing a verse that affirms IN-determinism. :-]

Only after having rendered the event certain. God could have rendered a different outcome certain had He wanted. As that which God renders certain is in accord with His perfect wisdom, there is no reason for God to then change what He has rendered certain.

rhutchin
God could have rendered a different outcome certain had He wanted.

br.d
Totally irrelevant to the point.
My statement is a TRUTH statement about Theological Determinism.

Whatever Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN he **CANNOT** intervene to prevent – with out compromising omniscience.
Because if it does not come to pass as he (at the foundation of the world) knows and believes
Then what he knew and believed (at the foundation of the world) was false.

Whether there is a reason or not for Calvin’s god to change [X] is irrelevant.

The value of this TRUTH STATEMENT is that it gives us the ability to discern when Calvinists attempt to FABRICATE falsehoods.
Fallaciously painting Calvin’s god as intervening to prevent events he in fact **CANNOT** intervene to prevent.

TS00
“they [Calvinists] actually have the nerve to quote the contradictory verses and pretend as if they are in harmony with Calvinism.”

rhutchin
How about offering some examples of this.

br.d
You provided the example. :-]

The instances you sited in scripture are LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with IN-determinism.

But by virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god would have to FIRST CONCEIVE and then RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into Joseph brain – trying to call that process “intervening” with Joseph’s decisions – is exactly what Dr. William Lane Craig calls it – a farce.

br.d writes, “But by virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god would have to FIRST CONCEIVE and then RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into Joseph brain – trying to call that process “intervening” with Joseph’s decisions – is exactly what Dr. William Lane Craig calls it – a farce.”

While God has conceived the thoughts a person might have. and does so before a person conceives them, He does not plant those thoughts in the person’s mind – He does not have to do so as man is perfectly able to conceive his thoughts without God’s help.

br.d
“But by virtue of the fact that Calvin’s god would have to FIRST CONCEIVE and then RENDER-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into Joseph brain – trying to call that process “intervening” with Joseph’s decisions – is exactly what Dr. William Lane Craig calls it – a farce.”

rhutchin
While God has conceived the thoughts a person might have. and does so before a person conceives them, He does not plant those thoughts in the person’s mind

br.d
And you say I make stuff up! :-]

Where is your evidence to prove Calvin’s god does not implant thoughts into people’s brains?
You have no idea how Calvin’s god transmits neurological impulses into a persons brain.
And Calvin is smart enough to not venture imaginations.

All you know is what Calvin’s doctrine dictates.
That Calvin’s god FIRST CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a person’s brain.

And besides that – the means Calvin’s god uses is an irrelevant red-herring.
The fact that neurological impulses do not originate from the person – (due to the fact that they originate before the person exists) is all that is necessary to establish WHO is the TRUE DETERMINER within Theological Determinism.

All you’re doing here is attempting to dress up Theological Determinism to make it look like IN-determinism.

I feel sorry for you.
You rejected IN-determinism and bought a bottle of Theological Determinism – but you want it to taste like IN-determinism. :-]

br.d. writes:
“All you know is what Calvin’s doctrine dictates.
That Calvin’s god FIRST CONCEIVES and then RENDERS-CERTAIN every neurological impulse that will ever enter into a person’s brain.

And besides that – the means Calvin’s god uses is an irrelevant red-herring.The fact that neurological impulses do not originate from the person – (due to the fact that they originate before the person exists) is all that is necessary to establish WHO is the TRUE DETERMINER within Theological Determinism.”

That’s really the crux of the matter. All attempts to imagine some sort of freedom to choose what one desires is simply that – vain imagining – if those desires have been preconceived and rendered certain by God.

The Calvinist attempts to borrow the concept of foreknowledge, along with the help of cooperative philosophers who assert that ‘to foreknow’ with certainty is ‘to determine’. I will admit that I cannot easily wrap my mind around how God can foreknow what is not yet, without ‘setting it in stone’. The best I can do is to imagine God as a being outside of the constraints of time, thus yesterday, today and tomorrow are all on the same screen for him. And yet, having created time and its limitations for mortals, God interacts with those mortals on the basis of our reality, allowing for our limitations. He allows us the opportunity to live a real life in real time, not allowing his knowledge of what we will do interfere with our opportunity to make what are – in our time frame – real choices yet to be made.

Many Calvinists today are persuaded that this is all that Calvinism asserts, but it is not so. Determinism is foreign to the way the early church fathers viewed reality, creating an entirely new element of control by God of ‘whatsoever comes to pass’. Formerly, men believed that God certainly foreknew all that would come to pass, but without having interfered to render men’s thoughts, words and actions certain in some foreordained, inescapable manner. The Calvinist who denies these distinctions, which are the essence of the difference between Calvinism and all other christian theology, is either ignorant or dishonest.

Predetermination is not equivalent to foreknowledge, and revered Calvinist thinkers make this extremely clear. What Calvinism could never avoid with their determinism – much as they sought to pretend otherwise – was making God the source and author of evil. Try as they might, whether by hemming and hawing, making groundless assertions, or borrowing non-Calvinist definitions, they simply cannot escape this unfortunate corollary of ordaining ‘whatsoever comes to pass’. But it is pretty much always the reason for the deception, double-speak and gobbledy gook talk – they are simply trying to deny, hide or ignore the unthinkable assertion, which few will tolerate, that God himself ordains and brings into existence the horrible evil and suffering that we all so hate.

All very true!
And you are not alone in your position. Peter Van Inwagen holds to the same position you do. When he reads scripture he doesn’t see Theological Determinism. And yet he understands the same philosophical issues you conveyed. But because scripture paints a picture of IN-determinism – and because that is what he experiences in his life – and because people who do embrace Theological Determinism (Calvinists and Muslims) spend so much of their time trying to manufacture FAKE presentations of IN-determinism into their theology – he concludes Theological Determinism as a fallacious belief system.

br.d writes, “Where is your evidence to prove Calvin’s god does not implant thoughts into people’s brains?
You have no idea how Calvin’s god transmits neurological impulses into a persons brain.
And Calvin is smart enough to not venture imaginations.”

It is an area where the Bible is silent. However, we are told the following:

“…the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5)

“The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, “There is no God.”” (Psalm 10)

““The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17)

“The LORD knows the thoughts of man, That they are a mere breath.” (Psalm 94)

“They devise injustices, saying, “We are ready with a well-conceived plot”; For the inward thought and the heart of a man are deep.” (Psalm 64)

““I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, A people who continually provoke Me to My face,…” (Isaiah 65)

We can conclude that a perosn’s thoughts are his own derived from a corrupt nature that God does not have to encourage. yet God knows the thoughts of a person and may limit what the person is able to act upon.

br.d
“Where is your evidence to prove Calvin’s god does not implant thoughts into people’s brains?
You have no idea how Calvin’s god transmits neurological impulses into a persons brain.
And Calvin is smart enough to not venture imaginations.”

rhutchin
It is an area where the Bible is silent. However, we are told the following:…… scriptures quoted

We can conclude that a perosn’s thoughts are his own derived from a corrupt nature that God does not have to encourage. yet God knows the thoughts of a person and may limit what the person is able to act upon.

br.d
First rule – never conflate Theological Determinism with scripture.

Secondly:
Every one of those verses affirms IN-determinism – and does NOT affirm Theological Determinism.

So by quoting them you did nothing more than affirm IN-determinism.
IN-determinism is to Theological Determinism as TRUE is to FALSE – they are mutually excluded.

Either the THEOS determines *ALL* things without exception is TRUE or it is FALSE.
You can’t have both.

I was intrigued by (10:19) “The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
———-

It appears that some were starting to be “reasoned with” but the miracles Jesus did.

Later Jesus adds,
“25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me….”

So He states that He was giving the the works/miracles as a testimony/ witness to what he was saying. Again that is used in persuading and reasoning with someone. Of course a “dead man” does not need testimony. And the “elect” of Calvinism dont need it either since they are going to be “irresistibly graced”. So why does Jesus even say He is giving proof?

He says it because they could have and should have believed in Him.

What He says they do not believe is that He is the Jewish Messiah. Of course those who follow Him will believe what He tells them. But He is not giving this as a qualifier.

His sheep believe Him when He says…… I am coming again, ….but it isn’t believing this that causes you to become a sheep!
His sheep believe Him when He says …..I have overcome the world
His sheep believe Him when He says….For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light
His sheep believe Him when He says ….The greatest among you shall be your servant
His sheep believe Him when He says …. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you

The sheep believe what Christ teaches. The ones who are His followers (sheep) do not.

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, [about being the Messiah] but you do not believe.”

All He is saying is “but you do not believe [what I told you about being the Messiah] because you are not my sheep. My sheep believe it.

rhuthcin
A rational person would exercise a free will to believe; an irrational person with the will compromised by sin will not believe.

br.d
This is a classic example of Calvinism’s *AS-IF* thinking.
Here the Calvinist MAKES-BELIEVE a person can be/do something other than what Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the word) RENDERED-CERTAIN that person be/do. *AS-IF* Calvin’s god doesn’t determine everything in every part.

To understand a Calvinist is fairly straightforward:
A Calvinist is a Determinist – wearing a mask of IN-determinism – reciting double-speak talking points.

br.d writes, “Here the Calvinist MAKES-BELIEVE a person can be/do something other than what Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the word) RENDERED-CERTAIN that person be/do. *AS-IF* Calvin’s god doesn’t determine everything in every part.”

Take the blinders off. I merely assume the prior condition of a free will. That God can decree the outcome does not negate free will unless the decreed outcome is coerced against the will of the person – denying the presupposition of free will. So long as the decree is in line with the desires of the person providing a concurrence between the decree and the free will choice, then free will is not negated.

br.d
“Here the Calvinist MAKES-BELIEVE a person can be/do something other than what Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the word) RENDERED-CERTAIN that person be/do. *AS-IF* Calvin’s god doesn’t determine everything in every part.”

rhutchin
Take the blinders off. I merely assume the prior condition of a free will. That God can decree the outcome does not negate free

br.d
Unfortunate for the Calvinist – to be totally reliant upon embracing deceptive half-truths.

Jesus says to them “I told you but you dont believe me cuz you aren’t my sheep.”

That’s true, right? But He is not saying believing that makes you His sheep, or that there is something about “electing” my sheep.

Nope. He is just saying you do not believe what I told you cuz you are not my followers/ sheep.

He even says several times statements like, “I have shown you many good works from the Father,” reminding them that they could have just believed these testimonials and become His sheep. No doubt some of those who saw the miracles (and previously did not believe) started to believe in Him.

Therefore:
No Calvinist knows whether or not Jesus died for him or not.
No Calvinist knows if Jesus is his TRUE shepherd or not.
No Calvinist knows if he is a TRUE SHEEP or a vessel of wrath.
No Calvinist knows if the promises of God are meant for him or not.
No Calvinist knows if he is totally depraved or not.

br.d
“But according to Calvin – the Calvinist cannot know who (in particular) the TRUE SHEEP are
Since as Calvin teaches – the TRUE SHEEP are an INVISIBLE CHURCH.”

rhutchin
What has that to do with anything?

br.d
Why ask a question concerning a post – when the answer to that question is already in the post.

Therefore:
No Calvinist knows whether or not Jesus died for him or not.
No Calvinist knows if Jesus is his TRUE shepherd or not.
No Calvinist knows if he is a TRUE SHEEP or a vessel of wrath.
No Calvinist knows if the promises of God are meant for him or not.
No Calvinist knows if he is totally depraved or not.

Leighton… the foundational issue is not God’s so-called “permitting” us to sin as you rightly point out. That word is thrown in to make God appear without culpability for sin. But “permission” truly, as you point out, contradicts the idea of decreeing any action of any other’s will to happen immutably before their will is even created.

Decreeing the fall of a “free will” (e.g. Adam) to happen only one way at one specific moment is a contradiction of logic. The Molinist and Arminian must face the same contradiction for certain knowledge of such a “fall of a ‘freewill’ to happen only one way at one specific moment”. It too is impossible and a contradiction for something or someone has to predestine the event so it can thus become known as certain.

Only God existed before creation to predestine events, so that they could then be known by Him as certain. They didn’t make themselves into predestined immutable events to be somehow observed then by God as a passive observer.

If predestined… then not logically accomplished by a LFW, and if not accomplished bya LFW, then never a LFW choice.

One has to ask if “perfect” knowledge can include knowledge of all possibilities. This requires knowledge of existing uncertainties (“I haven’t decided yet”) in those choices if a freewill is to exist. If God has freewill… does He know possibilities of various good choices yet to be made by Him… thus having knowledge of existing uncertainties between those possibilities?

brianwagner writes, “Decreeing the fall of a “free will” (e.g. Adam) to happen only one way at one specific moment is a contradiction of logic.”

Why is that? God created Adam and Eve. He then created a garden in which they would live. He then removed His protection giving Satan freedom to enter the garden. God was present during all the events of the garden leading to Adam eating the fruit. Could it have happened any other way – absent God intervening to change the dialog?

Then, ” If God has freewill… does He know possibilities of various good choices yet to be made by Him… thus having knowledge of existing uncertainties between those possibilities?”

As there is no additional information to be gotten, God’s choices are evident being the product of His perfect wisdom. What you have is God purposely deciding not to make a choice until a certain time – but for what purpose?

Tell’s self, “Don’t rise to the bait. You know it will only lead to more deliberately irrational statements which are purposefully illogical and antithetical, leading the sane person into crying ‘You’ve got to be kidding!’ Perhaps the goal is to incite never-ending, traumatic angst. Don’t rise to the bait.’

Decreeing a future event to occur one way makes a LFW choice impossible, for there must be two choices to freely choose between as possible up until the moment that will chooses for that event. A previous decree takes away one of those choices.

Brian,
You know that…..and I know that…. and logic teaches that…. and the Bible appears to confirm that, but …

They are a bit handicapped by their self-imposed definition of “sovereignty”. Once they bring to the table their Greek understanding of what deity must mean…and sovereignty must mean… then there is no limit to the gymnastics that must be performed to make that definition fit.

It really is as simple as you say.

A pre-established, immutable, will “necessarily” means that the lesser objects have no free will at all. At all. This is one of the ideas that caused me to re-examine my Calvinism (that, and the daily reading of long passages of Scripture).

br.d
“More precisely in your definition of “free” – which most of the time is strategically presented to masquerade as something it isn’t.”

rhutchin
So, what about my definition of “free” “is strategically presented to masquerade as something it isn’t” ?

br.d
This is where wisdom has shown me – it is better to let you provide the example – which after it comes from you – you’ll have a hard time trying to deny.

But I’ll give you a hint
Its all about making “free” within determinism masquerade as “free” within IN-determinism.
I’ll wait and let you provide the next example – which I know you will have to do. :-]

brianwagner
Decreeing a future event to occur one way makes a LFW choice impossible, for there must be two choices to freely choose between as possible up until the moment that will chooses for that event. A previous decree takes away one of those choices.

br.d
Well Said!!

In Theological Determinism – there is no such thing as a forked path in the garden.

And Calvinists *IF* they could speak the truth – the whole truth – and nothing but the truth – would acknowledge this.
Unfortunately for them – in order to defend Calvinism – they cannot – so they do not.

br.d
“In Theological Determinism – there is no such thing as a forked path in the garden.”

rhutchin
That is wrong. Forked paths exist – which way to go is determined by one’s motives and biases.

br.d
FALSE
Motives and biases are also PREDETERMINED before the creature exists
The creature does not exist at the time motives and biases are PREDETERMINED.
Therefore the creature has NO COUNTERVAILING CHOICE in the matter.
The creature has only ONE PATH available – that path which is RENDERED-CERTAIN.

My statement above is well acknowledged within Christian Philosophy

Calvinists simply need an *ILLUSION* of choice that doesn’t exist for the creature within their belief system – in order to APPEAR biblical.

A previous decree makes the outcome certain. It does not take away from the choices available prior to the event unless the decree is to be affected through coercive means to force the decreed result. God can decree that Adam eat the fruit – a result that could only be different if God helped Adam to resist eating the fruit. Otherwise, Adam is faced with the choice of eating/not eating the fruit where eating the fruit is the preferred (and highly biased) choice based on the circumstances (contrived by God as a test). As a professor, you have classes that you teach. You can always choose to neglect your students as you are not coerced to teach – except for the possibility of being fired if you don’t teach, but that just biases the decision you make, so that even someone who is not God could foretell that future. Someone could hold a gun to your head and decree that you teach (or die), but this just focuses your attention on the decision before you – it doesn’t eliminate your choices.

rhutchin
A previous decree makes the outcome certain. It does not take away from the choices available prior to the event unless the decree is to be affected through coercive means to force the decreed result.

br.d
FALSE – (and the LOGIC for this is simple)

1) The content of every decree has exactly ONE and ONLY ONE truth-value – its either TRUE of FALSE (it can’t be both)
2) The decree establishes what choice will have EXISTENCE
3) Whatever does not EXIST is not available to the creature
4) The choice which the decree establishes MUST be either YEA or NAY (i,e,TRUE or FALSE)
5) If the decree establishes the choice as YEA – then NAY is negated – will not have EXISTENCE – and is thus not available
6) If the decree establishes the choice as NAY – then YEA is negated – will not have EXISTENCE – and is thus not available

1) The content of every decree has exactly ONE and ONLY ONE truth-value – its either TRUE of FALSE (it can’t be both)
2) The decree establishes what choice will have EXISTENCE
3) Whatever does not EXIST is not available to the creature
4) The choice which the decree establishes MUST be either YEA or NAY (i,e,TRUE or FALSE)
5) If the decree establishes the choice as YEA – then NAY is negated – will not have EXISTENCE – and is thus not available
6) If the decree establishes the choice as NAY – then YEA is negated – will not have EXISTENCE – and is thus not available”

Your points (5) and (6) are false. You should have written tham as:

5) If the decree establishes the choice as YEA – then NAY will not be chosen
6) If the decree establishes the choice as NAY – then YEA will not be chosen

1) The content of every decree has exactly ONE and ONLY ONE truth-value – its either TRUE of FALSE (it can’t be both)
2) The decree establishes what choice will have EXISTENCE
3) Whatever does not EXIST is not available to the creature
4) The choice which the decree establishes MUST be either YEA or NAY (i,e,TRUE or FALSE)
5) If the decree establishes the choice as YEA – then NAY is negated – will not have EXISTENCE – and is thus not available
6) If the decree establishes the choice as NAY – then YEA is negated – will not have EXISTENCE – and is thus not available”

rhutchin
Your points (5) and (6) are false. You should have written tham as:

5) If the decree establishes the choice as YEA – then NAY will not be chosen
6) If the decree establishes the choice as NAY – then YEA will not be chosen

br.d
This is very typical for you rhutchin
You claim something is FALSE and then affirm it as TRUE :-]

In order to show (5) and (6) are FALSE – you will have to show:
1) How YEA being established instead of NAY does not negate NAY
2) How NAY being established instead of YEA does not negate YEA
3) How something that does not EXIST can be available to the creature.

br.d
3) How something that does not EXIST can be available to the creature.”

rhutchin
The outcome does not exist because it does not come to fruition – an alternative is chosen. What is your point?

br.d
FALSE
Per decree (at the foundation of the world) it never had EXISTENCE – and never will have EXISTENCE
Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) knows and believes it never had and will never have EXISTENCE.
Whatever does not EXIST is not available to come to fruition.

Except in the Calvinist’s mind – because he needs to MAKE-BELIEVE it is and can. :-]

br.d
FALSE
Per decree (at the foundation of the world) it never had EXISTENCE – and never will have EXISTENCE
Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) knows and believes it never had and will never have EXISTENCE.
Whatever does not EXIST is not available to come to fruition.
Whatever does not EXIST is not available for the creature to choose.

Except in the Calvinist’s mind – because he needs to MAKE-BELIEVE it is and can. :-]

EdChapman
what else is promised to Abraham? We inherit whatever that is. Can you tell me?

br.d
I think Paul and John lay that out very well:

“that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height. And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge. And that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.”

Beloved – it does not yet appear what we shall be – but we know – when He shall appear we shall be like him – for we shall see Him as He is.

I also think Paul, Peter, and others in the NT church – by the things that God did in their lives – give us glimpses of our inheritance.

Again, Galatians mentions promised seed as Jesus. Yet, if you read in Genesis, you will not find anything about Jesus being the promised seed.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

According to Genesis, Isaac, and the children of Isaac is the promised seed.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

So you need to go back to Genesis and re-read about the promised seed, and place Isaac as a “shadow or type” of Jesus, and the children of Isaac as a “shadow or type” of Christians.

But, what about the PROMISED LAND? We inherit the PROMISED LAND. What is it in Genesis? What is it as a “TYPE OR SHADOW”?

I’m gonna give you a hint.

A Christian life is summed up with the EXAMPLE of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL wandering in the desert. The “biblical” definition of Israel is “Wrestles with God and prevails”. Jacob wrestled with God, and prevailed, and God changed his name to Israel.

Egypt is BONDAGE TO SIN. We become Christian, and STILL WANT TO GO BACK TO SIN (Egypt). We are wandering in the desert, struggling with God. Eventually, we die, and that is the example of CROSSING THE JORDAN RIVER.

We enter into the PROMISED LAND.

Heaven is the promised land. Tthe physical land of Israel is THE “type or shadow” of heaven, eternal life.

Hebrews 11:9
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Now, if you listen to the EXPOSITORY only preachers, the Promised Land is ONLY the physical land of Israel, and they don’t see the physical land of Israel as a TYPE OR SHADOW of ANYTHING at all.

Here is another TYPE OR SHADOW OF JESUS that is Isaac that many don’t see, either:

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Why was Abraham (shadow of God, the Father) so eager to offer up his only “begotten” son, Isaac (shadow of Jesus)? Because he knew that even if he crucified his only begotten son, that God would raise him from the dead (shadow of the resurrection of Jesus) in order to fulfil his promises, because Abraham BELIEVED God’s promises…that’s how much faith in God that Abraham had. Tons of faith.

So, there are tons of “types or shadows” that many haven’t even delved into in the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh), The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.

Thank you Leighton for using His Word how can they not see what is there in Psalm 115:16🤔that really is key, because it seems some bloggers want to puff themselves up in the guise of giving our God honor! It doesn’t honor God to determine every action of His Creation it’s a heart condition! Not one out of His control to change obviously in whomever humbly seeks Him… Keeping our eyes on the living breathing Word of God & trusting Jesus above your humanistic/deterministic concept of God matters. So to all the incredibly “smart” bloggers please remember you yourself are finite and we always will be… only God is infinite & He gave me the freedom to seek Him Praise Him!! not your own wisdom.

2 Chronicles16:9 NKJV
“For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.

John 4:23 NASB — “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

”Hebrews 11:6 NASB — And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

God cannot bestow a level of Freedom to man that is equal or will supercede the Giver, otherwise man can no longer be controlled or tamed by God.

Conclusion :

1. Man’s freedom in the Bible is limited, not absolute. It is not compatible with the dictionary meaning of freedom.
2. Man’s freedom becomes corrupted during the fall. It becomes the best friend of SIN that is present among humans. It will always influence man’s decisions so that this so called freedom is not absolutely free to decide on his own.
3. God can still override man’s freedom anytime God may wish to do it. God the Father prunes and discipline the branches without asking permission from them.
4. God can terminate man’s life without asking permission from humans if they like it. Man becomes helpless by the time God terminates human lives.

This appears to be mere speculation and opinion, with no basis in scripture or reality. And your initial claim is a doozy – where in the world does one get the idea that God’s goal is to control or tame people? He most certainly could have made a tame, completely compliant people, with absolutely no propensity to sin, had his overriding goal been control. Authoritarian, hierarchical institutional churches, yes, desire nothing more than tame, controllable people. God, not so much.

jtleosala
God cannot bestow a level of Freedom to man that is EQUAL or will supercede the Giver,

br.d
Who says so? Is this “mans logic”?

jtleosala
otherwise man can no longer be controlled or tamed by God.

br.d
How is it not double-minded for a Theological Determinist (aka Calvinist) to call man “tamed” by Calvin’s god?
When according to Calvinism – man’s every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN millennia before the man is born.

Does the engineer who decrees the robot’s program “TAME” the robot?
When every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN outside of the man’s control – there is nothing to tame.

There once was a Calvinist – who purchased a bottle of Theological Determinism from the theology store.
While proudly carrying his bottle out, he noticed the large numbers of Christians walking out carrying bottles of IN-determinism.

He pointed the finger of accusation at their bottles calling it “Liquid Heresy”, a “Man-Made” product that dishonored the sovereign god. Theological Determinism is the only orthodox drink! – he asserted. Theological Determinism is the only Holy Spirit inspired drink designed by God!

Some of them listened to his boasting and the harsh judgmental claims he made. Some just ignored him. A few smiled and said “wait until you actually drink what you’ve bought”.

At home, the other Christians curled up in their comfort chairs with their Bibles, and happily sipped the sweet honey taste of IN-determinism. It fit perfectly with scripture.

When the Calvinist got home with his bottle – he looked at it with glee believing it would have much more depth – for it was advertised as having a “Fully Orbed” flavor.

His first taste however soured in his mouth. He tried again – with the same result. Yeeeeeeuuu!
And again – and again. But each taste was just as sour as the last one – Yuuuuuk!.

I do confess he said – holding up the bottle – THE DECREE IS HORRIBLE!

He now understood his dilemma. He had boasted greatly about his bottle of Theological Determinism, claiming it was the only true drink. Unfortunately, the taste of it was hardly palatable. What was he to do?

AH! he had a cleaver idea! One after another – he snuck over to his Christian neighbors homes, stealing IN-determinism out of their bottles and pouring into his.

This way he could continue to proudly carry his bottle, boasting it as the only true theology. Yes – he could continue making bold accusations, calling their IN-determinism a heretical product.

But secretly he had filled his bottle with IN-determinism – in order to make it palatable.
Now! He said I’ll have the best of both worlds! Stolen bread is indeed sweet!

Dr. William James:
-quote:
Compatibilism is a quagmire of evasion. The Compatibilists strategy relies upon stealing the name of freedom to mask their underlying determinism. They make a pretense of restoring the caged bird to liberty with one hand, while with the other they anxiously tie a string to its leg to make sure it can’t get beyond determinism’s grasp.

rhutchin
January 25, 2019 at 9:46 am
God did not intervene to prevent the Jews stoning Stephen…..

Br.d
How dare those men who stoned Stephen – do the very thing Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world FIRST-CONCEIVED and then RENDER-CERTAIN they infallibly do!

But isn’t it interesting
If Calvin’s’ god had intervened to prevent himself from FIRST-CONCEIVING and RENDERING-CERTAIN that event – it would have never come to pass.

Since a quadrillion times a quadrillion evils events do come to pass on a daily basis – it must be the case that Calvin’s god doesn’t intervene to prevent himself from FIRST-CONCEIVING and RENDERING-CERTAIN very much!

He certainly doesn’t intervene to prevent himself from FIRST-CONCEIVING and RENDERING-CERTAIN a whole lot of evil.

br.d writes, ‘Since a quadrillion times a quadrillion evils events do come to pass on a daily basis – it must be the case that Calvin’s god doesn’t intervene to prevent himself from FIRST-CONCEIVING and RENDERING-CERTAIN very much!”

God has conceived all that could happen – there is nothing new that God does not already know. Those events that God renders certain, out of all that God has conceived, reflect the counsel of His will,

br.d
Since a quadrillion times a quadrillion evils events do come to pass on a daily basis – it must be the case that Calvin’s god doesn’t intervene to prevent himself from FIRST-CONCEIVING and RENDERING-CERTAIN very much!”

rhutchin
God has conceived all that COULD happen – there is nothing new that God does not already know. Those events that God renders certain, out of all that God has conceived, reflect the counsel of His will,

br.d
Calvinist’s just love to camouflage TRUTH by crafting statements which are totally irrelevant to the major point.

Notice how this statement is designed to paint the picture that Calvin’s god does NOT FIRST-CONCEIVE or RENDER-CERTAIN evil events.

It logically follows:
If Calvin’s god is MORAL – then he knows that everyone reaps what they sow – including himself.

If Calvin’s god is RATIONAL – then he knows that what he CONCEIVES in his mind ORIGINATES in his mind.
He does not learn by observation those things that ORIGINATE in his mind.

If he intervened to prevent his MIND from CONCEIVING an evil – then that evil would not have its ORIGIN in his mind.
If he intervened to prevent his DESIRE for an evil – then he wouldn’t contemplate RENDERING-CERTAIN that evil.
If he intervened to prevent his WILL from RENDERING-CERTAIN an evil – then that evil would never exist.

The square of opposition is a classic tool used in logic, which allows one to ascertain assertions, which are falsehoods. This is done when a pair of statements (i.e., propositions) is argued together as both being true at the same time.

The square of opposition divides all statements into 4 categories – classified as “Categorical” statements. So this tool allows us to ascertain when a pair of propositions resolve to being a categorical falsehood.

The 4 statements (i.e., propositions) are listed below in their classic form
1) ALL [S] ARE [P]
2) NO [S] ARE [P]
3) SOME [S] ARE [P]
4) SOME [S] ARE NOT [P]

As already stated – this tool allows us to discern a categorical falsehood when a pair of these statements are argued as both being true at the same time.

Lets look at how this works:
Statement (1) “ALL [S] ARE [P]” and statement (2) “NO [S] ARE [P]” are logically contrary – so asserting these as both true at the same time would be committing a categorical falsehood.

Statement (3) “SOME [S] ARE [P]” and statement (4) “SOME [S] ARE NOT [P]” are logically contrary – so asserting these as both true at the same time would be committing a categorical falsehood.

Statement (1) “ALL [S] ARE [P]” and statement (4) “SOME [S] ARE NOT [P]” are logical contradictions – so asserting these as both true at the same time would be committing a categorical falsehood.

Statement (3) “SOME [S] ARE [P]” and statement (2) “NO [S] ARE [P]” are logical contradictions – so asserting these as both true at the same time would be committing a categorical falsehood.

So lets apply this tool to a Calvinist statement, which asserts a pair of these as both true.

A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

B: SOME [things] ARE NOT [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

We can see that A above is categorical statement (1) and B is categorical statement (4). Since this is the case, this argument is a categorical falsehood.

Now it may be that the Calvinist will be aware that this falsehood will be easily recognized. So he may choose to alter the wording of statement B with the hopes of disguising the contradiction.

B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man

Even though statement B has now been reworded – it logically resolves to the same thing. So we can see that this rewording is designed to camouflage the contradiction. But we can also see through the disguise.

However, there is an instance in which the Calvinist may not be committing a categorical falsehood here. And that would be the instance in which the term “determined” is being presented as having two different meanings. Where “determined” in statement A has a different meaning than “determined” in statement B. Here is how we would recognize this as equivocation.

When a THEOS “determines” [X] he brings [X] into existence. Man however doesn’t’ have the power to bring anything into existence. He can only work with what is available. Whatever is available, is whatever the THEOS brings into existence. And whatever does not exist is not available. So the term “determine” as it applies to man cannot have the same meaning as “determine” as it applies to the THEOS.

So if the Calvinist is presenting the word “determine” knowing that he is applying two different meanings – then he is not committing a categorical falsehood. But rather, he is committing a falsehood of equivocation.

This, unfortunately for the Calvinist, is an even worse falsehood to commit, for the fallacy of equivocation when done deliberately is a manifestation of dishonesty. So if the Calvinist, even at some minute level, is aware he is subtly applying two different meanings for “determine”, then he is moving in a volitional act of dishonesty.

Either way, the argument is a falsehood. It is either a categorical falsehood, or a falsehood by equivocation.

br.d writes, “So lets apply this tool to a Calvinist statement, which asserts a pair of these as both true.
A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]
B: SOME [things] ARE NOT [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]
…
B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man”

This should be:

A’: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man,

There is a concurrence with that which God determines and man self-determines. By “self-determines,” we mean that man expresses his desires and motives freely and without being coerced.

br.d, “So lets apply this tool to a Calvinist statement, which asserts a pair of these as both true.

A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

B: SOME [things] ARE NOT [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

or its equivalent:
B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man”

rhutchin
This should be:

A’: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man,

br.d
FALSE
Your not getting it – the tool applies to a PAIR of statements which are contradictions.

All you’ve done here is omit one of the statements
A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

So now you fail in one of two ways
You either deny that Calvin’s god determines all things at the foundation of the world. – which is a falsehood for you to deny
Or you put that statement back and you have the pair constituting a falsehood.

rhutchin
There is a concurrence with that which God determines and man self-determines. By “self-determines,” we mean that man expresses his desires and motives freely and without being coerced.

There is a concurrence with that which God determines and man self-determines. By “self-determines,” we mean that man expresses his desires and motives freely and without being coerced.

br.d
So now you bring up another term “concurrence” – you certainly do have *FULL* library of evasive terms.

There is no way that man can “concurrently” determine something that was determined at a point when man doesn’t exist.
And there is no way Calvin’s god can NOT determine (at the foundation of the world) man’s determinations before man exists.
So this argument has as its strategy to present an ILLUSION embraced as real.

Additionally – you use Calvinism’s fallacious appeal to NATURAL Determinism
Which has the same relationship to Theological Determinism as IN-determinism does.

If Theological Determinism is TRUE – then by its very essence – its reciprocal or negation NATURAL determinism – is false

Your still back with Calvin’s god is the determiner of man’s determinations – and man has no say in what those determinations will be.
They are all fated – predestined – predetermined – and occur unavoidably and irresistibly.

Man CANNOT be/do OTHERWISE than what Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN at the foundation of the world.

So your back to the points in my article on the square of opposition.
You either have a categorical falsehood or a falsehood via equivocation

-quote
According to Molina’s view God is not morally responsible [for a person’s choices] because He does not *DIRECTLY WILL* the person’s choice. He does not *MOVE THEIR WILLS* to sin [as is the case with the Reformed view]…..

The difference between the Molinist view and Reformed view is that in the Reformed view God *CAUSES* the person’s will to chose one way or the other.

This is how Molina’s view has the advantage in that it doesn’t entail God as the author of sin. While God concurs with the person’s will in producing the effect, God does not *MOVE* the person’s will to sin.

By contrast in the Reformed view, God *CAUSES* the person to sin by *MOVING* his will to choose evil, which makes the allegation that God is the author of sin difficult to deny. So the Molinist doctrine of simultaneous concurrence enjoys the considerable advantage of not making god the author of sin. -end quote

Even if we remove the references to Calvin’s god MOVING a person’s will – we still have Calvin’s god CAUSING the person’s determinations to be what they will be – and establishing those as fated – inevitable, unavoidable, and the person (who does not exist when these things are determined) not having any say in the matter.

This it follows – in Theological Determinism – man is NOT the determiner of his determinations – Calvin’s god is.

br.d writes, “The difference between the Molinist view and Reformed view is that in the Reformed view God *CAUSES* the person’s will to chose one way or the other. ”

No. The difference between the Molinist and Calvinist views is that the Molinist view is a pre-creation view and the Calvinist view is a post-creation view. That world which God chooses to create pre-creation is that world actualized post-creation. Molinism ascribes to God the power to choose to create any world He wants. Calvinism then describes the world God created. In creating the world, God determines all that will happen and is thereby is said to be the cause of all that happens. Molinism does not take a position on God causing all things because it does not speak to the world actually created by God.

I suspect that the vast majority of Calvinists actually believe in Molinism . . . but don’t know it. Compatibilism has been proposed as allowing the Calvinist to hold two, contradictory truths at the same time, which is simply not possible. Personally, I’m willing to question the orthodox teaching on the Trinity as well, but it is not a logical contradiction, as it proposes the one and the three are not in the same manner at the same time. Compatibilism, on the other hand, suggests maintaining two directly antithetical truths and simply ignoring the impossibility of both being true in the same way at the same time. Calvinism attempts to claim:

A) God predetermines whatsoever comes to pass unchangeably.
B) Men have the freedom to choose their own actions and full responsibility for their own actions.

Both cannot be true. If one’s actions have been inescapably predetermined, in any manner whatsoever, one cannot be held responsible for said actions, which were actually, secretly, determined by another, irresistible power. It doesn’t matter if the individuals ‘think’ or ‘believe’ their choices are real, or if they strongly desire to do those things they have been irresistibly created and ordained to do. If they do not have the genuine ability to choose freely between doing A and not doing A, they cannot be held responsible for doing A. They have no choice, however much they are deceived into believing they do. It really is that simple.

TS00
Calvinists – hold to
A) God predetermines whatsoever comes to pass unchangeably.
B) Men have the freedom to choose their own actions and full responsibility for their own actions.

br.d
Very true TS00!
The way Calvinists get around the contradiction with a pair of positions like that is to deflect or deny in some way shape or form – (A).
Of course that’s the very strategy rhutchin is currently taking.

If a non-Calvinist does that – the Calvinist will accuse him of robing Calvin’s god of some measure of sovereignty.
Two minutes after accusing someone of that – he does that very thing – and doesn’t even think or blink.

Its all a part of their mental conditioning – use any argument that works no matter how delusional, irrational, or dishonest.
One thing and one thing only is important – *APPEARING* to win.

Otherwise – what profit is it to be the SELECTED ELECTED – it it doesn’t make you *APPEAR* superior! :-]

I tend to think the real draw is the ability to put it all on God. Takes away all personal responsibility, guilt or need to grow in sanctification. Sure, it would be ‘better’ to grow in wisdom and maturity, but, in the end, it’s no big deal . . . ’cause it’s all God. That, in my opinion, is the (false) assurance that so many are unwilling to surrender by admitting that God calls us to ‘work out our salvation with fear and trembling’. Easily misconstrued, as Calvinists hasten to do, but the main point is God calls us to take life seriously, not to just coast along with our Jesus robe to hide all our sin. When our goal becomes aligned with God’ goal, we too will long to become more like Christ rather than to coast along on our fire insurance.

Yes I can see how that would be true for some Calvinists.
But don’t you see Calvinists making god in their own image alot?
I think its ironic how for example they can boast about their gig being “god honoring”
When what I see is alot of them simply making a god in their own image.

Take Calvin’s instructions to his fold to -quote “go about your office as if Calvin’s god doesn’t determine anything in any part”
It seems to me – that becomes a graven image they create in their minds – and I see it in their descriptions.
They spend half of their time dictating what god does and doesn’t do.
In order to make the image work for them.

TS00 writes, “If one’s actions have been inescapably predetermined, in any manner whatsoever, one cannot be held responsible for said actions, which were actually, secretly, determined by another, irresistible power….If they do not have the genuine ability to choose freely between doing A and not doing A, they cannot be held responsible for doing A.”

Explain why this is true using the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 as an example.

TS00 writes, “If one’s actions have been inescapably predetermined, in any manner whatsoever, one cannot be held responsible for said actions, which were actually, secretly, determined by another, irresistible power….If they do not have the genuine ability to choose freely between doing A and not doing A, they cannot be held responsible for doing A.”

rhutchin
Explain why this is true using the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 as an example.

br.d
If we’re talking about Theological Determinism – it would be better to use robots as an example :-]

br.d
‘If we’re talking about Theological Determinism – it would be better to use robots as an example :-]”

rhutchin
If you want to call the Assyrians robots, that’s fine. But you are stalling. Perhaps TS00 can do better.

br.d
A robot today currently has a fraction of the functionality of the human brain.
Therefore the human brain can FUNCTION as a robot’s.

So if we’re talking about Theological Determinism – the Assyrians don’t have to be robots in order for Calvin’s god to design them such that they’er every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN before they were born.

Now isn’t that convenient!
That happens to be just exactly the way Calvin’s god design’s humans in Theological Determinism!

br.d writes, “So if we’re talking about Theological Determinism – the Assyrians don’t have to be robots in order for Calvin’s god to design them such that they’er every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN before they were born.”

br.d
“So if we’re talking about Theological Determinism – the Assyrians don’t have to be robots in order for Calvin’s god to design them such that they’re every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN before they were born.”

rhutchin
Still stalling.

br.d
Well – since we’re talking about an entity that is designed such that its every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN before it exists – the we can see that both humans and robots qualify for that FUNCTIONALITY.

So we can see how the parameters which TS00 stated apply:

– One’s actions have been inescapably and secretly predetermined
– And by another whose power is irresistible
– They do not have the genuine ability to choose freely between doing A and NOT A

So since in Theological Determinism – that would be the case with the Assyrians as well as with robots
It all works out to the same end-game for Calvin’s god.

He gets to RENDER-CERTAIN everything that comes to pass
And they get to be/do whatever he RENDERS-CERTAIN they be/do.

I should think you’d be happy with that – since it doesn’t compromise Calvin’s god’s sovereignty.
Isn’t Calvin’s god manifesting his sovereignty. that all that’s important to Calvinists?
Otherwise – one would have a “man-centered” theology – right?

br.d writes, “Well – since we’re talking about an entity that is designed such that its every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN before it exists – the we can see that both humans and robots qualify for that FUNCTIONALITY.

Doesn’t make them the same.

Then, ‘So since in Theological Determinism – that would be the case with the Assyrians as well as with robots”

Not what the Scripture says. I guess it depends on your definition of “Theological Determinism.”

br.d
“Well – since we’re talking about an entity that is designed such that its every neurological impulse is RENDERED-CERTAIN before it exists – the we can see that both humans and robots qualify for that FUNCTIONALITY.

rhutchin
Doesn’t make them the same.

br.d
In your statement here the word “them” is ambiguous – so I’ll have to fill in the details.

The FUNCTIONALITY is the same.

To be/do ONLY what Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN one be/do – requires only that one be/do what Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN one be/do.

Since a robot easily fulfills that requirement – and since the robots neurological FUNCTIONAL capabilities is a tiny fraction of that of a human – then it follows a human can easily fulfill that FUNCTIONALLY.

‘So since in Theological Determinism – that [functionality] would be the case with the Assyrians as well as with robots”

rhutchin
Not what the Scripture says. I guess it depends on your definition of “Theological Determinism.”

br.d
Not what scripture says?
That could be evidence that Theological Determinism (ala Calvinism) is not affirmed by scripture.

If your wondering about the definition of Theological Determinism and whether your definition matches it – here is the definition of Theological Determinism as defined by academia.

Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Theological determinism is the view that God determines every event that occurs in the history of the world.

If your definition deviates from the definition defined by academia it would be good for you to say so.

br.d
‘‘So since in Theological Determinism – that [functionality] would be the case with the Assyrians as well as with robots””

rhutchin
Still doesn’t make them the same. Both Assyrians and robots walk – So??

br.d
They don’t have to be ONTOLOGICALLY the same in order to be/do whatever Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN they be/do.
All that is required is that he designs them to be/do whatever he RENDERS-CERTAIN they be/do.

If your wondering about the definition of Theological Determinism and whether your definition matches it – here is the definition of Theological Determinism as defined by academia.

Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Theological determinism is the view that God determines every event that occurs in the history of the world.

If your definition deviates from the definition defined by academia it would be good for you to say so.

rhutchin
Now, we are back to your definition of “determine.” What is your definition?

br.d
I’m happy to go with the definition universally accepted by academia and Christian Philosophy

Here is one from John Samuel Feinberg’s (who is considered a classic Reformed Theologian) – from his book “No One Like Him” in which he defends Theological Determinism.

“it is the unconditional decree…based on nothing outside of God that moves him to choose one thing or another”

I think that enunciation of a definition falls in line with what is standardly agreed upon.

I provided a definition from a Reformed source – to make it easier to see if yours deviates from it.
So now its your turn to accept or reject it.
What say you?

So the fact that you call it “my” definition reveals your definition deviates from it.

br.d writes, “All that is required is that he designs them to be/do whatever he RENDERS-CERTAIN they be/do.”

S, then we need to know what you mean by “…designs…” Does “design” include self-determination?

Then, ‘Theological Determinism. – “it is the unconditional decree…based on nothing outside of God that moves him to choose one thing or another”
So now its your turn to accept or reject it.”

I agree as this says that God’s unconditional decree is based on the counsel of His will and reflects His perfect wisdom. It makes God the final arbiter of all that happens – man’s actions are subordinate to God’s decrees. So, what is your problem with Calvinism?

br.d writes, “then I was correct in recognizing that both statements (as provided in the article on the square of oppositions) are at play.”

Given that we have dealt with the first statement – “A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]” – it is in play; meaning that we both agree that it is true. We agree that “determine” means God has made His choices – ““it is the unconditional decree…based on nothing outside of God that moves him to choose one thing or another””

br.d
“then I was correct in recognizing that both statements (as provided in the article on the square of oppositions) are at play.”

rhutchin
Given that we have dealt with the first statement – “A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]” – it is in play; meaning that we both agree that it is true. We agree that “determine” means God has made His choices – ““it is the unconditional decree…based on nothing outside of God that moves him to choose one thing or another””

None of the other statements apply.

br.d
Fine – what I knew all along is correct – you assert that statement A is TRUE

br.d
“So then do you assert that statement B is also TRUE
What say you?”

rhutchin
Nope.

We have;
A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]
B: SOME [things] ARE NOT [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

br.d
So then we follow along with the rest of the article:

-quote
We can see that A above is categorical statement (1) and B is categorical statement (4). Since this is the case, this argument is a categorical falsehood.

Now it may be that the Calvinist will be aware that this falsehood will be easily recognized. So he may choose to alter the wording of statement B with the hopes of disguising the contradiction.

B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man.

Even though statement B has now been reworded – it logically resolves to the same thing. So we can see that this rewording is designed to camouflage the contradiction. But we can also see through the disguise.

However, there is an instance in which the Calvinist may not be committing a categorical falsehood here.
-end quote

So now we follow the rest of the article – which addressed the issue of an falsehood by equivocation.
And whether or not the Calvinist commits this falsehood out of ignorance or dishonesty.

br.d writes, “B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man.
Even though statement B has now been reworded – it logically resolves to the same thing. So we can see that this rewording is designed to camouflage the contradiction. But we can also see through the disguise.”

Rhutchin writes:
“So, what exactly has God done other than to decree that I choose that option that I would choose even if He were not involved? I don’t see why I did not determine, or decide, what I would do.”

Not that br.d needs my help, but note, once again the stating of the logically impossible or nonsensical as if it were indeed possible and made sense.

If a choice of action exists, then more than one action is possible. God could either determine all things, as per Theological Determinism, or he could offer men a free moral choice, as per non-Determinism. What theological system is rhutchin creating, in which God foresees man’s choices then renders them certain? What would be the possible explanation for God needing to ‘determine’ the choices any man would freely make? It is just another attempt to hide the unpalatable nature of a Deterministic Theology be wrapping it in layers of confusing, nonsensical steps in hopes of, somehow, justifying Calvin’s God’s sordid authorship of evil while unjustly ‘passing the buck’ to the patsy who is forced to bear the punishment for carrying out God’s sovereign, omnipotent predetermined will.

TS00 writes, “If a choice of action exists, then more than one action is possible. God could either determine all things, as per Theological Determinism, or he could offer men a free moral choice, as per non-Determinism.”

If God “offers,” then He determined to offer. If man has “free moral choice,” then God determined that man would have free moral choice. This is determinism.

rhutchin writes:
“TS00 writes, “If a choice of action exists, then more than one action is possible. God could either determine all things, as per Theological Determinism, or he could offer men a free moral choice, as per non-Determinism.”

If God “offers,” then He determined to offer. If man has “free moral choice,” then God determined that man would have free moral choice. This is determinism.”

More like deception.
What he is essentially saying is that God determined all things by determining not to determine all things, which takes the nonsensical to a whole new level. Sure, non-Calvinists would grant that God determined not to determine all things – that’s what we’ve been saying all along. But no honest Calvinist would try to pretend that is what is meant by Calvinistic ‘Determinism’, which would eliminate their disagreement with non-deterministic believers. Rhutchin’s just playin’ games again, hoping onlookers will be too confused to try and make sense of his nonsense.

br.d
“B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man.
Even though statement B has now been reworded – it logically resolves to the same thing. So we can see that this rewording is designed to camouflage the contradiction. But we can also see through the disguise.”

rhutchin
I did not reword B. I made a subpoint to A.

br.d
It doesn’t matter if you (in particular) reworded B or not.
What matters is that the statement – which you called “subpoint to A” – LOGICALLY EQUATES to Statement B

For example:
B: SOME [of the consumed liquor bottles] ARE NOT [consumed by rhutchin]
Logically equates to
B: SOME [of the consumed liquor bottles] ARE [consumed by someone other than rhutchin]”

Hence –
B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man”
Logically equates to
B: SOME [things] ARE NOT [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

Unless – the falsehood committed is that of equivocation (on the term determine).
In that case – the issue would be whether it was done out of ignorance or dishonesty

br.d writes, ‘Hence –
B: SOME [things] ARE [self-determined] by man”
Logically equates to
B: SOME [things] ARE NOT [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]”

Wrong. Man and God are not equals. Man is subordinate to God. “The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.” God has given man the freedom to pursue good or evil. That which man determines to do is subject to God’s rule. It is only when God has determined the same that man can act.

Also – you don’t actually have concurrence here at all.
What you ave is COINCIDENCE

Calvin’s god’s choice just happens to be the same choice that rhutchin would have made – were Calvin’s god to not exist.
Calvin’s god does not concur with the choice of a creature *AS-IF* Calvin’s god put any weight in the creature’s choice
Calvin’s god’s choices are made SOLELY withing himself

He makes his choice irregardless and TOTALLY INDIFFERENT of the creature.

This suggests an interesting point. If God simply ‘ordains’ what man would choose anyway, there would be no point in God ordaining anything. But you and I both know, as Dan Gracely wrote in his book, ‘Calvinism: A Closer Look’ that the Calvinist simply rides the rocking horse back and forth, claiming one truth, then leaning back and insisting its antithetical opposite is also true. He must. He is attempting to believe in two, impossibly contradictory realities. The mind cannot tolerate such cognitive dissonance, thus will either compartmentalize or dissociate.

It is very healing, and mind renewing to let go of the inconsistency and cruelty of Calvinism and embrace a healthy, wholesome, loving, gracious, merciful view of God.

TS99 writes, ‘Dan Gracely wrote in his book, ‘Calvinism: A Closer Look’ that the Calvinist simply rides the rocking horse back and forth, claiming one truth, then leaning back and insisting its antithetical opposite is also true. He must. He is attempting to believe in two, impossibly contradictory realities.”

Gracely has a problem with God being sovereign and man having free will – he calls these contradictory. He does not explain what makes them contradictory. He writes that Calvinist refer to God as “absolutely sovereign” as if that is different than just sovereign. I haven’t found where he defines what he believes “sovereign” means. He writes like a person with a grudge and provides tortured arguments to support his position.

Look at his analysis of Romans 9:22 and the alleged middle voice (a person acting). Here is the context.

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

v21 says, “the potter makes one lump for this and one lump for that. v24 says, “God prepared one lump as a vessel of mercy.” So, how do we read v23 – Did God prepare them, or the person prepare himself, for destruction? The translators take this to be God prepared the person for destruction consistent with God having made one lump for this or that and God having prepared one for mercy. Gracely ignores all this in pursuit of the holy frail of free will.

Gracely is an angry man with an agenda and seems to have disappeared from the scene soon after writing the book. He had an interview on some program where he offered his email address for people to write to him – the email address does not work.

rhutchin
Gracely has a problem with God being sovereign and man having free will
Gracely is an angry man with an agenda

br.d
Fallacy of Ad hominem (Latin for “to the person”)
This is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument.

Who would have suspected this fallacy would be committed by a Calvinist! :-]

br.d writes, “This is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument.”

My impression of Gracely’s attitude ( being angry) did not enter into any argument i made about the points he makes in his book. This, you know from my comments. So, why do you even say this??

rhutchin
Gracely has a problem with God being sovereign and man having free will
Gracely is an angry man with an agenda

br.d writes, “This is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument.”

rhutchin
My impression of Gracely’s attitude ( being angry) did not enter into any argument i made about the points he makes in his book. This, you know from my comments. So, why do you even say this??

br.d
You can figure it out for yourself – there’s really no need for me to lead people by the hand on these things. :-]

TS00
ex-Calvinist Dan Gracely wrote in his book, ‘Calvinism: A Closer Look’ that the Calvinist simply rides the rocking horse back and forth, claiming one truth, then leaning back and insisting its antithetical opposite is also true

br.d
Yes!
This is excactly rhutchin’s situation.
There are a few times where he goes FULL BLOWN sovereignty – like “It is necessary for Calvin’s god to determine all things”

But here at SOT101 – most of the time – he’s on the alternate side of the rocking horse – denying TRUE Calvinism – by trying to paint a NON-Calvinist mask over its face.

Funny you should mention the Calvinist Rocking Horse!
I was just thinking that – more than likely from this current dialog with rhutchin :-]

br.d writes, ‘There are a few times where he goes FULL BLOWN sovereignty – like “It is necessary for Calvin’s god to determine all things””

rhutchin
The distinction I have made is that God’s determinations are not coercive which is the Calvinist position as far as I know.

br.d
This is then another example of the problematic language.
The word ALL is defined as “without exception, every, entire, the whole quantity”
It is an indicator of percentage.
As in a total of 100 items – equates to 100%

It doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not those items are pink rabbits, orange frogs, or coercive. :-]

‘So you say “yea” to COINCIDENCE in this case instead of concurrence I’ll record this one as well.”

rhutchin
As “coincidence is defined in terms of “concurrence” what is your point?

br.d
Here you’ll have to show LOGICALLY how IN THIS CASE coincidence can be defined in terms of concurrence.

Coincidence is easy in to see in this case – since
– Were Calvin’s god to exist he would be the one to determine (i.e.RENDER-CERTAIN) rhutchin’s self-determination will be “yea” and not “nay”.
AND
– Were Calvin’s god to NOT exist – rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT self-determination could be “yea”

So these two things could be confidential.

Now you will have to LOGICALLY show how that coincidence can be defined in terms of concurrence

br.d writes, ‘Now you will have to LOGICALLY show how that coincidence can be defined in terms of concurrence”

MW Dictionary – “the occurrence of events that happen at the same time by accident but seem to have some connection.”
Dictionary.com – “a striking occurrence of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance:”
Oxford – “A remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.”
Wikipedia – “A coincidence is a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances that have no apparent causal connection with one another. ”
Collins – “A coincidence is when two or more similar or related events occur at the same time by chance and without any planning. “

br.d
‘Now you will have to LOGICALLY show how that coincidence can be defined in terms of concurrence”

rhutchin
MW Dictionary – “the occurrence of events that happen at the same time by accident but seem to have some connection.”
Dictionary.com – “a striking occurrence of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance:”
Oxford – “A remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.”
Wikipedia – “A coincidence is a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances that have no apparent causal connection with one another. ”
Collins – “A coincidence is when two or more similar or related events occur at the same time by chance and without any planning. “

br.d
AH – very funny!
A concurrence of COINCIDENTAL EVENTS THAT HAPPEN TO OCCUR BY CHANCE
Not a concurrence of intelligence – as in an agreement, or planning between two parties!
I get it!

Nothing of any significance there.
Especially when Calvin asserts that nothing happens by chance in Theological Determinism. :-]

Meaning that God “works all things after the counsel of His will” thereby voiding anything happening by chance. Thus, where man sees “a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances that have no apparent causal connection with one another,” we know that all causal connections run through God.

rhutchin
Meaning that God “works all things after the counsel of His will” thereby voiding anything happening by chance. Thus, where man sees “a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances that have no apparent causal connection with one another,” we know that all causal connections run through God.

br.d
As a reflection of Theological Determinism – you could say it that way.
My concern for not misleading people – would prohibit me from using such vague language:

In Theological Determinism (ala Calvin) the THEOS determines *ALL* things which will come to pass
Which includes the creature’s every neurological impulse, inclination, nature, determination, etc.

And the creature, does not have A PRIORI knowledge of what things are fated to come to pass.
However, accordingly, the creature does have A POSTERIORI knowledge – of what the THEOS determined (RENDERED-CERTAIN)
By simply observing those things that do come to pass.

Therefore
Whatever the creature observes concerning himself (in every part) – was exactly what that creature was determined to be/do and observe about himself.
And every one of those determinations was sealed (i.e. concluded) before that creature was born.

br.d writes, ‘Whatever the creature observes concerning himself (in every part) – was exactly what that creature was determined to be/do and observe about himself.”

Yes. The amazing thing is that those things God determined the creature to do are the sames things the creature would freely choose to do absent God’s determination. God does not coerce the creature to act contrary to its wants and desires.

br.d
‘Whatever the creature observes concerning himself (in every part) – was exactly what that creature was determined to be/do and observe about himself.”

rhutchin
Yes. The amazing thing is that those things God determined the creature to do are the sames things the creature would freely choose to do absent God’s determination.

br.d
That’s an interesting claim
Please provide EXPLICIT evidence that uncontroversially shows that to be true.

Of course, this utterly contradicts the concept of Total Depravity, which asserts that the individual not only does not, but cannot do what God desires. It also, as I mentioned before, eliminates the necessity for God to ordain anything, since men would choose to do as he wishes even without his ‘determinations’. What a coincidence!

TS00
Of course, this utterly contradicts the concept of Total Depravity, which asserts that the individual not only does not, but cannot do what God desires. It also, as I mentioned before, eliminates the necessity for God to ordain anything, since men would choose to do as he wishes even without his ‘determinations’. What a coincidence!

br.d
Exactly right TS00!
We will eventually see how this assertion contradicts Calvin’s “irresistible” doctrine.
If Calvin’s god determines people to be/do *ONLY* that which they already be/do without Calvin’s god causing anything – then all of this business of Calvin’s god having to make things “irresistible” in order to move people in a direction they would not otherwise go – becomes a FAKE presentation.

And the self-contradicting illusions of so-called “intervening to prevent” are also FAKE presentations.

This latest imaginative grasping at straws confirms – the Calvinist mind is conditioned to engage in *AS-IF* thinking.
Where Calvin’s god determines ALL things *AS-IF* he doesn’t.

Taught by John Calvin’s as: “go about your office AS-IF nothing is determined in any part”
Calvin’s theology leads a person’s mind into a universe of Double-Think.

A clear indicator that a deity is a graven image projected out of someone’s imagination
Is when that person’s imagination manifests certain forms of Double-Think
And the resulting image of the deity – just happens to exactly conform to every aspect of that Double-Think!

For example – Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN Cain will kill Able
And then communicates to Cain *AS-IF* he didn’t
What we have is Calvin’s god obeying Calvin’s command
He goes about his office communicating AS-IF nothing is determined in any part. :-]

TS00 writes, “Of course, this utterly contradicts the concept of Total Depravity, which asserts that the individual not only does not, but cannot do what God desires.”

What is the contradiction??

Then, “It also, as I mentioned before, eliminates the necessity for God to ordain anything, since men would choose to do as he wishes even without his ‘determinations’.”

It is God who ordains his conception in the womb and then sustains him till the day God ordained for his death. It is God who ordains the corrupted nature be inherited from Adam. As Romans 9 says, “What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” Even the wicked serve God’s purposes; we see this in the Assyrians of Isaiah 10.

rhutchin
It is God who ordains his conception in the womb and then sustains him till the day God ordained for his death.

br.d
Here we have a nice example of Calvinism’s strategically ambiguous and equivocal language.
Notice how this statement could be easily be stated by an Arminian, Molinist, or Open Theist.

A robot engineer can be said to “ordain” his conception of the robot – including that robot’s disposal.

As William Lane Craig says concerning Calvinists:
-quote
“Sadly but consistently Calvinists fail to enunciate the radical distinctions inherent in their belief system”

More like:
“Sadly but consistently Calvinists *EVADE LIKE THE PLAGUE* the radical distinctions inherent in their belief system”

rhutchin
It is God who ordains the corrupted nature be inherited from Adam.

br.d
It is the robot engineer who “ordains” the robot’s programing and all causal events inherited from it

In Theological Determinism:
Whatever happens with any man including Adam – ( right down to every neurological impulse.) is exactly what Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN. Man is powerless to escape what Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN.

br.d writes, ‘Please provide EXPLICIT evidence that uncontroversially shows that to be true.”

1. God determined that Joe buy a car in eternity past.
2. God does not force Joe to buy a car.
3. Joe buys a car because he needs wheels to go to work..
4. God’s determination did not directly cause Joe to buy a car.
5. Absent God’s determination, Joe still needs wheels to get to work so he buys a car.

rhutchin
The amazing thing is that those things God determined the creature to do are the sames things the creature would freely choose to do absent God’s determination.

br.d
That’s an interesting claim
Please provide EXPLICIT evidence that uncontroversially shows that to be true.

rhutchin
1. God determined that Joe buy a car in eternity past.
2. God does not force Joe to buy a car.
3. Joe buys a car because he needs wheels to go to work..
4. God’s determination did not directly cause Joe to buy a car.
5. Absent God’s determination, Joe still needs wheels to get to work so he buys a car.

br.d
Sorry! This is not EXPLICIT evidence – unquestionably proving the claim – this is an argument.
You still are required to provide EXPLICIT evidence – that unquestionably proves the actual claim.

But in the mean time lets analyze the argument:

1. God determined that Joe buy a car in eternity past.

Answer:
This statement works as a presupposition – and first step towards the remaining points (2-5)
Unfortunately, the language of this statement is so vague and ambiguous – it evades addressing the actual claim.
It could be interpreted to mean Calvin’s god determined what Joe’s free choice would be without Joe determining anything at all.
If so – it proves the actual claim is false at step (1).

The rest of the points simply proceed from there – with the repeated claim that Calvin’s god determines a creatures choice while somehow magically not forcing that choice – without any logical argument to show how that can be the case.

However!
What we have here is a display of an irrational deity.
Here we have a god who determines something to exist – which (per the original claim) already exists.
In order to claim that he doesn’t force something to exist which already exists.

SOT101 readers must decide whether this reflects a being with perfect knowledge and perfect morality.

So you are still required to provide EXPLICIT and unquestionable evidence that the claim is true.
Otherwise – we can chalk it up to what Paul would call a “Tinkling Cymbal”.

TS00
Step by step you expose how irrational and self-defeating rh’s claims are. But don’t expect him to ever admit it.

br.d
Yes – it turns out all of those irrational claims have their source in nothing more than double-think talking points.
It is the nature of talking points – after they get reinforced enough times – the Calvinist simply embraces them without thinking.
And Calvin teaches his disciples its taboo to question them.
So when you boil down the theology – that’s really all they have.

They functionally assume John Calvin has authority over and above the NT authors.
Because Calvin tells them what the NT authors mean by what they write – even if the NT authors could have never even conceived what Calvin insists they mean.

The Calvinist simply assumes Calvin operates in the authority to do so.
And this is why we see so many Calvinists assuming to speak with authority.

The word tautology was used by the ancient Greeks to describe a claim that was asserted to be true merely by virtue of making the same claim over and over again – often by using different wording or presentation.

Circular arguments and/or tautologies are an illogical way to argue because they do not bring any new information into the discussion. Rather, they argue what has already been claimed, and do not back it up with anything.

Your still required to provide EXPLICIT evidence that unquestionably shows what you claimed.

Here is your claim:
-quote
The amazing thing is that those things God determined the creature to do are the sames things the creature would freely choose to do absent God’s determination.

If your going to appeal to omniscience – then try to show EXPLICIT evidence that proves that Calvin’s god knows what the creature will determine (absent his determination) will be the exact same thing Calvin’s’ god’s determines.

hutchin
Theological Determinism says that God determines by coercing the outcomes He determines.

br.d
rhutchin – sometimes you remind me of the “banana man” in the old Captain Kangaroo show.
He was a clown who could pull out a never-ending string of bananas from his jacket pocket.

What you pull out are a never-ending string of imaginative assertions.
Which I can only assume you auto-magically believe are true immediately after your mind thinks them. :-]

If your assertion here were true – Calvinist Neil Anderson of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC would reject it.
But here he affirms Theological Determinism as consistent within Calvinism.
-quote
It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism…..
Take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold

And here is a quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy – on Jonathon Edwards
-quote
Jonathon Edwards “Freedom of the Will” defends Theological Determinism.
I hardly doubt Edwards holds to a THEOS who determines by coercing outcomes.

Lets see if you can provide an academic quote

rhutchin
I’ll go with Edwards. God determines events but does not coerce the events He has determined.

br.d
Yes – I knew you would have to eventually have to concede to that.
To make irrational statements is human
I suspect you made that self-contradicting statement (top of this post) without thinking it through. :-]

br.d writes, “br.d
FALSE Your not getting it – the tool applies to a PAIR of statements which are contradictions.”

rhutchin
Exactly. You created a contradiction to make your argument work.

br.d
FALSE
As I’ve said –
If you refuse to acknowledge the first statement in that pair – that Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines *ALL* things which come to pass – then that denial is an automatic falsehood on your part.

br.d writes, “If you refuse to acknowledge the first statement in that pair – that Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines *ALL* things which come to pass – then that denial is an automatic falsehood on your part.”

br.d
If you refuse to acknowledge the first statement in that pair – that Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines *ALL* things which come to pass – then that denial is an automatic falsehood on your part.”

Sometimes when a person is faced with a conclusion that is unpalatable to him – he simply chooses to call that conclusion a claim.
That’s his way of being able to evade the truth value of that conclusion.

Either that – or he doesn’t know the difference between a claim and a post-argument conclusion.

You for example, will frequently respond to a post I’ve made which contains all of the above – and you will extract the conclusion out of the post – ignore the argument – and tell yourself what I posted was an unproven claim.

Its clear – that is one of the methods you choose to deal with a conclusion that you find unpalatable.

But you’re intellectual honesty is not my responsibility – so I accept your responses for what they are.

br.d writes, ‘You for example, will frequently respond to a post I’ve made which contains all of the above – and you will extract the conclusion out of the post – ignore the argument – and tell yourself what I posted was an unproven claim.”

No. It’s because your arguments depend on terms that you do not define making your arguments bogus.

br.d writes, “So in that previous article on the square of opposition – what terms were undefined?”

“If you refuse to acknowledge the first statement in that pair – that Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines *ALL* things which come to pass – then that denial is an automatic falsehood on your part.”

br.d
“So in that previous article on the square of opposition – what terms were undefined?”

rhutchin
“If you refuse to acknowledge the first statement in that pair – that Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines *ALL* things which come to pass – then that denial is an automatic falsehood on your part.”

br.d
So lets look at the statement as it exactly is in the article.

A: ALL [things] ARE [determined by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world]

Is it your position that the word “determined” in this statement is undefined?

Exodus 21:12-13 (JPS Tanakh 1917): “12He that smiteth a man, so that he dieth, shall surely be put to death. 13And if a man lie not in wait, but God cause it to come to hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he may flee.” (The place to flee of course refers to the yet to be established cities of refuge).

From the JPS Torah Commentary: Shemot (Exodus) regarding verse 13: “an act of God: The theological assumption is that the death of the victim occurred by the intervention of Providence; thus, the manslayer was the unwitting agent.”

Now let us say that exactly 5 minutes from now rhutchin will make determination [yea].

Now back at the foundation of the world, Calvin’s god knows that rhutchin will make determination [yea] five minutes from now.
But on Theological Determinism (aka Calvinism) Calvin’s does not simply look into the future and observe rhutchin making determination [yea] – and from that observation know that determination [yea] will come to pass.

On the contrary, Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world, FIRST-CONCIEVES the possibility of what rhutchin’s determination will be. He knows it could be determination [yea] – and/or it could be determination [nay].

So rhutchin’s determination [yea] vs rhutchin’s determination [nay] are CONCIEVED as possibilities by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world. And Calvin’s god then determines which of these will come to pass.

Now if Calvin’s god is rational, then he knows he cannot grant EXISTENCE to determination [yea] – and to determination [nay] making them both EXIST (i.e., come to pass) at the same time – because one of these logically cancels out the other. So if Calvin’s god is rational then knows he can only grant EXISTENCE to one of these.

The one that he does NOT grant EXISTENCE to therefore will not have EXISTENCE. And whatever does not have EXISTENCE is not available to the creature.

So Calvin’s god grants only one of these to have EXISTENCE. And the one Calvin’s god grants EXISTENCE to – is the determination that will be available for rhutchin to have.

Now we first stated that five minutes from now rhutchin will have determination [yea]. So by that we can logically deduce that determination [yea] – is the determination which was granted EXISTENCE by Calvin’s god at the foundation of the world. And in reformed terminology – this is called Calvin’s god RENDERING-CERTAIN determination [yea].

So in this case – at the foundation of the world – it is RENDERED-CERTAIN that:
– Determination [yea] is granted EXISTENCE to be available to rhuthin
– Determination [nay] is NOT granted EXISTENCE to be available to rhutchin
– Five minutes from now rhutchin’s determination will be determination [yea]

So we can logically conclude that rhutchin is not the determiner of what determination he will make – Calvin’s god is.

Silly br.d. When backed into a logical corner, all the Calvinist has to do is pull out handy dandy prooftext XYZ and assert that the official, Calvinist interpretation of said prooftext is the only possible meaning, thus, case closed. Cause ‘God’ says . . . and who are you to argue with God, O man?

Establish this ‘Tradition’ through a controlling tyrant who uses carrots and sticks; produce talented thought leaders who cleverly dispense the official narrative; marginalize, bully, discredit, mock, threaten and, when all else fails, torture or murder your dissenters, and you have yourself a historical, orthodox Religion. Congratulations!

TS00 writes, “Silly br.d. When backed into a logical corner, all the Calvinist has to do is pull out handy dandy prooftext XYZ and assert that the official, Calvinist interpretation of said prooftext is the only possible meaning, thus, case closed.”

Look around – the same tactics can produce any desired Official Narrative.

“Justice is turned back, and righteousness stands afar off, for truth has fallen in the public squares, and uprightness cannot enter. Truth is lacking, and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.” (Isaiah 59:14-15)

Note who becomes the prey when Truth is fallen in the public squares – those who seek to defend and do what is just and true. And yet many who claim to read this book are ‘shocked, shocked’ that the Enemies of Truth always appear to ‘triumph’ in this world. Almost as if a power so strong and so evil is at work that, if possible, even the very elect could be deceived.

Of course, one doesn’t have to ponder such things if one believes that whatsoever comes to pass must be God’s will, right? Fight for truth, defend the powerless, condemn oppression and injustice? Nah, it was all predetermined by God. Might means right. Only what God ordains can be, so why worry our little heads about the evils in the world? We have more important things to worry about, like the regulative principles of worship!

“Given that God is omnipotent and can affect any outcome He wants, doesn’t the buck stop with Him?” without even making an attempt to deny that he need not bother to “Fight for truth, defend the powerless, condemn oppression and injustice? Nah, it was all predetermined by God. Might means right. Only what God ordains can be, so why worry our little heads about the evils in the world?”

And this is why there are those who assert that Calvinistic Determinism was the doorway to all of the supposedly justifiable wars, oppression and endless pillaging and abuse of people and nations – all done under the banner of ‘freedom’ and ‘justice’, a.k.a, Calvin’s ‘the end justifies the means’ theory of ‘to God be the glory’. Of course powers that be didn’t intend to grab lands, resources and eliminate national autonomy – they simply wanted to ‘save the world’ and deliver those heathen from their darkness; not to mention their gold, oil, rubber, etc.!

Yessiree, every single evildoer in the world, according to Calvinism, should be able to rightly stand before their Maker and judge and plead ‘Not guilty; doesn’t the buck stop with you? What did I ever do that was not predetermined by You, O God, from eternity past? To you, and you alone, belongs all the glory of my rape, murder and pillaging, which you ‘determined’ to bring to pass. Amen.’

TS00 writes, “Given that God is omnipotent and can affect any outcome He wants, doesn’t the buck stop with Him?” without even making an attempt to deny that he need not bother to “Fight for truth, defend the powerless, condemn oppression and injustice? Nah, it was all predetermined by God. ‘

You did not answer the question. Given that God is omnipotent and can affect any outcome He wants, doesn’t the buck stop with Him?

Since I believe – as well rhutchin knows – that God has granted to men free moral choice, the freedom to reject and resist his will, then no, one cannot lay ‘the buck’ at God’s feet when men abuse their God-given freedom of choice to do evil. God allowed the passing of his ‘buck’ when he gave to men the freedom of choice, along with the responsibility (the buck) for the results of the actions they choose.

This is, of course, the reason for all that scripture proclaims, the laying out of terms and concepts concerning sin, atonement, grace, forgiveness, etc. This is the entire point of all of God’s warnings, admonitions, prophets, etc., to urge men to turn from wickedness and avoid the punishment that continued evildoing would ensure to them. This is the point of Jesus giving his life that men could be forgiven and offered a second chance.

He could, of course, have said, ‘You chose, you loose’. Instead, he offered men a second chance, and urged them, once again, to choose wisely, to choose grace, to choose to turn from waywardness, rebellion and evildoing. Man owns the buck, not once, but twice, and he is without excuse.

TS00 writes, “God has granted to men free moral choice, the freedom to reject and resist his will, then no, one cannot lay ‘the buck’ at God’s feet when men abuse their God-given freedom of choice to do evil.”

Yet, despite granting people the freedom to choose, God still intervened in several cases – using a dream to protect Sarah, later Mary, conversion of Saul, etc. Given that God did intervene in the free choices of people in several cases, He could have done so in all cases. God could prevent all sin if he chose to do so, so it is His choice not to do so. Effectively, the buck does stop with Him. Doesn’t it – given that he always has the final say?

TS00
“God has granted to men free moral choice, the freedom to reject and resist his will, then no, one cannot lay ‘the buck’ at God’s feet when men abuse their God-given freedom of choice to do evil.”

rhutchin
Yet, despite granting people the freedom to choose, God still intervened

br.d
TS00 adopts IN-determinism – and asserts what is logically coherent with it.

You on the other hand – CLAIM to adopt Theological Determinism.
But your Theological Determinism is a hybrid which includes TS00’s IN-determinism

Theological Determinism NEGATES IN-determinism the same way FALSE negates TRUE

Secondly:
As I’ve shown – the only event which Calvin’s god can intervene to prevent are events which are NOT RENDERED-CERTAIN
And these are events which are NOT going to come to pass anyway.

Calvin’s god needs to focus his energies on intervening to prevent himself from FIRST-CONCEIVING and then RENDERING-CERTAIN events he does not want to come to pass.

Then he wouldn’t have to fret over intervening to prevent events he CANNOT intervene to prevent. :-]

But I know – as a Calvinist you need to MAKE-BELIEVE his AUTHORSHIP of *ALL* events is both TRUE and FALSE at the same time.

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times…and rhutchin still don’t get it…

First, rhutchin states:

“Yet, despite granting people the freedom to choose, God still intervened in several cases – using a dream to protect Sarah, later Mary, conversion of Saul, etc. Given that God did intervene in the free choices of people in several cases, He could have done so in all cases. God could prevent all sin if he chose to do so, so it is His choice not to do so. Effectively, the buck does stop with Him. Doesn’t it – given that he always has the final say?”

My response for the thousanth and oneth (if that’s even a word):

PROPHESY! This none of this has anything to do with SIN OR SALVATION.

God PROMISED a SEED to Abraham…and as you SHOULD know, by Galatians 3:16, Jesus is that PROMISED SEED. But bringing it back to Isaac, Isaac is the promised seed.

Jesus comes to us thru that promised seed, hence PROPHESY.

That is why God intervened, for the sake of Prophesy being fulfilled about JESUS. God intervened in the case of Sarah and Mary for the purpose of FULFILLING prophesy. Not to SAVE THEIR SOULS from anything.

Paul, or Saul, whichever, is a JEW. And the Jews are a totally different story. Saul was ALREADY a follower of God. God REVEALED himself to Saul.

Saul asks, “Who are you LORD? LORD…LORD…LORD…LORD. That is a key word. There is ONLY ONE LORD. And Saul knew it. Who are you LORD?

And Jesus responds, I am Jesus!

Joseph revealed himself to his brothers. Jesus revealed himself to Saul. Joseph’s brothers had no clue that it was Joseph. Until….Until when? Until he REVEALED HIMSELF.

How did Joseph reveal himself? By showing his brothers his JUNK IN THE TRUNK…CIRCUMCISION.

How will Jesus show himself to the REST of the Jews (other than Paul)…his hands and his feet (proving that he was crucified in the cross.

THEN they will be convinced in their own mind.

Paul was convinced in his OWN MIND. God did NOT INTERVENE to SAVE Saul, God revealed to Saul who he was, and he was convinced in his own mind. God did not GIVE HIM FAITH. He believed on his own accord.

You keep saying that God intervenes in EVERYONE’S CASE TO SAVE THEM…INDIVIDUALLY.

NO. God intervenes in order to make sure that PROPHECY OF JESUS comes true when SATAN tries to thwart God’s plans. Not to SAVE someone.

Ed,
You may consider the possibility that rhutchin’s mind has been conditioned to ignore anything that doesn’t fit a COMPLIMENTARY narrative for Calvinism.

Even when that information come directly from statements made by John Calvin himself – those statements must be REFORMED in the Calvinist’s mind – because the mind is conditioned only to accept information that provides a COMPLIMENTARY reflection on Calvinism.

br.d writes, “You need to clarify what you mean by “effect any outcome””

Actually, i’s “affect.” Regardless, to “affect any outcome,” refers to God’s ability, by virtue of He omnipotence, to affect any change He wants in the affairs of people (to execute any action to prevent or sustain any outcome)..

rhutchin
Actually, i’s “affect.” Regardless, to “affect any outcome,” refers to God’s ability, by virtue of He omnipotence, to affect any change He wants in the affairs of people (to execute any action to prevent or sustain any outcome)..

br.d writes, ‘So in this case – at the foundation of the world – it is RENDERED-CERTAIN that:
– Determination [yea] is granted EXISTENCE to be available to rhuthin
– Determination [nay] is NOT granted EXISTENCE to be available to rhutchin
– Five minutes from now rhutchin’s determination will be determination [yea]
So we can logically conclude that rhutchin is not the determiner of what determination he will make – Calvin’s god is.”

Coincidentally, [yea] is that choice I would make absent the existence of God and any involvement of God in my decision. So, the choice [nay] is irrelevant. as it is not an option I would consider. So, what exactly has God done other than to decree that I choose that option that I would choose even if He were not involved. I don’t see why I did not determine, or decide, what I would do.

br.d
‘So in this case – at the foundation of the world – it is RENDERED-CERTAIN that:
– Determination [yea] is granted EXISTENCE to be available to rhuthin
– Determination [nay] is NOT granted EXISTENCE to be available to rhutchin
– Five minutes from now rhutchin’s determination will be determination [yea]
So we can logically conclude that rhutchin is not the determiner of what determination he will make – Calvin’s god is.”

rhutchin
Coincidentally, [yea] is that choice I would make absent the existence of God …..etc

br.d
This argument is crafted with too much ambiguous language – and is therefore UNTRUSTWORTHY

Firstly your language in much of your statements is muddled – so one has to guess at what you are arguing
Your argument here appears to come in two phases – which I will attempt to decipher:

I will call your argument: “rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice”

IF
Calvin’s god did not exist = TRUE
AND
rhutchin did exist = TRUE
AND
rhutchin determines [yea] = TRUE

THEN
In this case
rhutchin is INDEPENDENT of Calvin’s god – and rhutchin (NOT Calvin’s god) determined that rhutchin will determine [yea]

CONCLUSION
Were Calvin’s god to exist – he would simply know rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice
And knowing that – Calvin’s god would simply concur with rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice – and decree it to come to pass.

Firstly,
What you have here is a Molinist/Arminian doctrine of simultaneous concurrence – which is rejected by Calvinism
So your Calvinism appears to have evolved into a hybrid form of Calvinism – which Calvin himself would harshly reject.

Secondly:
Your argument withholds from Calvin’s god the ability to Over-rule rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice.
This represents not only a hybrid form of Calvinism – but a RADICAL hybrid form of it.

If you were in Geneva – Calvin would have your tongue driven through with a red-hot iron for daring to withhold from Calvin’s god the ability to determine *ALL* things UNCONDITIONALLY and WITHIN HIMSELF – AND HIMSELF ALONE.

br.d
“What you have here is a Molinist/Arminian doctrine of simultaneous concurrence – which is rejected by Calvinism”

rhutchin
Molinism is not the same as Arminianism.

br.d
FALSE – as it pertains to the doctrine of simultaneous concurrence – which they both share and which Calvinism rejects.
See “Four Views on Divine Providence”

The Calvinist argument against the Molinist/Arminian view of simultaneous concurrence is stated as:
The idea that God does not ACT ON the human will to produce its effect – but rather acts ALONG WITH the human will to produce its effect is rejected as ontologically absurd.

rhutchin
No. It addresses situations where God does not overrule independent choice.

br.d
So then it is HALF of a theory with one HALF missing

Your back to what William Lane Craig calls the Molinist/Arminian doctrine of simultaneous concurrence again.
And your appeal to concurrence appears to be getting very close to MERE PERMISSION which Calvin rejects.

William Lane Craig enunciates the difference between the Molinist/Arminian doctrine of concurrence.
-quote
In the Molinist/Arminian view, ….God does not move the agent’s will to sin. By contrast, in the Thomistic/ Reformed view, God CAUSES the agent to sin by MOVING HIS WILL to choose …..God moves people to choose…..and they CANNOT DO OTHERWISE.

Additionally “concurrence” and “author” are two radically different terms

John Calvin states this:
But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God ….PERMITS them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the AUTHOR of them.

To assert that Calvin’s god MERELY concurs with a creature’s choice is to compromise Calvin’s god being the AUTHOR of that choice.

br.d writes, “To assert that Calvin’s god MERELY concurs with a creature’s choice is to compromise Calvin’s god being the AUTHOR of that choice.”

By concurs, we look to Calvin, “Thus we must hold, that while by means of the wicked God performs what he had secretly decreed, they are not excusable as if they were obeying his precept, which of set purpose they violate according to their lust.”

Also, “Modest minds will always be satisfied with Augustine’s answer, “Since the Father delivered up the Son, Christ his own body, and Judas his Master, how in such a case is God just, and man guilty, but just because in the one act which they did, the reasons for which they did it are different?” (August. Ep. 48, ad Vincentium)

Calvin also wrote, “This is intimated by John in his Epistle, when he says that [Satan] “sinneth from the beginning,” (1Jn 3: 8) implying that he is the author, leader, and contriver of all malice and wickedness.”

br.d
“To assert that Calvin’s god MERELY concurs with a creature’s choice is to compromise Calvin’s god being the AUTHOR of that choice.”

rhutchin
By concurs, we look to Calvin, “Thus we must hold, that while by means of the wicked God performs what he had secretly decreed, they are not excusable as if they were obeying his precept, which of set purpose they violate according to their lust.”

br.d
irrelevant
This does not address the question of how/why Calvin’s god’s makes his determinations – it is totally dedicated to stating that Calvin’s god is not culpable for “secretly decreeing” a person to do something that is evil.

So this appeal fails

Additionally – you agreed to John Feinberg’s definition of “determine” which states (consistently with Calvin) :
“it is the UNCONDITIONAL decree…based on NOTHING OUTSIDE OF GOD that moves him to choose one thing or another”

Your theory ASSUMES that Calvin’s god’s choice would be in concurence with rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice – which would be based upon rhuthin’s CONDITION. And were Calvin’s god to concure with rhutchin – he would be making a determination based upon something OUTSIDE of himself.

Thirdly – rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice would be a totally depraved choice.
And your theory ASSUMES Calvin’s god would concur with total depravity.

CONCLUSION
Your arguments consistently show up as some Calvini-Molini-Armian-openTheist mixture.

br.d writes, ‘This does not address the question of how/why Calvin’s god’s makes his determinations…”

That’s not the issue. The issue is the relationship of God’s determinations to man’s determinations and whether this negates free will..

Then, ‘Your theory ASSUMES that Calvin’s god’s choice would be in concurence with rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice – which would be based upon rhuthin’s CONDITION.”

No. It assumes that God is sovereign making man subordinate to Him. Again Proverbs 16, “The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.” God does not force a person to do anything he does not want to do. God’s will always prevails.

Then, ‘Your arguments consistently show up as some Calvini-Molini-Armian-openTheist mixture.”

So, you claim. This just shows that you do not understand Molinism and apparently little about Arminianism. Kinda like your understanding of Calvinism.

br.d
This does not address the question of how/why Calvin’s god’s makes his determinations…”

rhutchin
That’s not the issue. The issue is the relationship of God’s determinations to man’s determinations and whether this negates free will..

br.d
FALSE
The question of How/Why is especially important – because in Theological Determinism – HOW Calvin’s god makes his determination is stated as “SOLELY WITHIN HIMSELF”.

br.
‘Your theory ASSUMES that Calvin’s god’s choice would be in concurrence with rhutchin’s INDEPENDENT choice – which would be based upon rhuthin’s CONDITION.”

rhutchin
No. It assumes that God is sovereign making man subordinate to Him. Again Proverbs 16, “The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.” God does not force a person to do anything he does not want to do. God’s will always prevails.

br.d
Here you simply show that you require appealing to equivocal terms – in this case the term “subordinate”
This term is equivocal because it can either work for or against your position.

A person who is functioning as a puppet is going to make determinations that are “subordinate” to the puppet master.
But this could mean the puppet master determines all of what the puppet can determine.
Or it can mean the puppet can determine things INDEPENDENT of the puppet master.
Therefore “subordinate” is an equivocal term.
It is a term which functions to masquerade Theological Determinism as IN-deterministic

br.d
‘Your arguments consistently show up as some Calvini-Molini-Armian-openTheist mixture.”

rhutchin
So, you claim. This just shows that you do not understand Molinism and apparently little about Arminianism. Kinda like your understanding of Calvinism.

br.d
What is obvious – is that you make room for a Molinist position which is logically contrary and thus a denial of Calvin’s position – and use it to address a weakness in the Calvinist position. Or you use an Arminian or Open Theist position in the same way.

You apparently don’t completely throw out the Calvinist position during this process.
You ignore it – AS-IF it didn’t exist – while you replace it with the logically contrary alternative position.
Then when you’re dealing with a different issue – you can return to the Calvinist position.

That strategy allows you to temporarily evade areas in Calvin’s system that contain weaknesses which the other system does not have – simply by masquerading a Molinist, Arminian, or Open Theist position as a Calvinist position.

Its nothing more than an argumentation strategy on you part.
Vincent Chung would call you a Calvinist who compromises TRUE Calvinism in order to APPEAR to win arguments.

br.d writes, ‘FALSE
The question of How/Why is especially important – because in Theological Determinism – HOW Calvin’s god makes his determination is stated as “SOLELY WITHIN HIMSELF”.

That’s a given. The question is then whether this negates man’s free will. If God and man both get what their will in any situation, has man’s will been negated?

Then, “A person who is functioning as a puppet is going to make determinations that are “subordinate” to the puppet master…
Therefore “subordinate” is an equivocal term.”

A person who is functioning as a puppet does not make determinations.

Then, ‘What is obvious – is that you make room for a Molinist position which is logically contrary and thus a denial of Calvin’s position – and use it to address a weakness in the Calvinist position.”

Molinism is a pre-creation theology. Calvinism is a post-creation theology. The theologies are mutually exclusive and neither is contrary to the other.

Then, ‘Or you use an Arminian or Open Theist position in the same way.”

The Arminian has man as the final arbiter of his salvation; Calvinism has God as the final arbiter of man’s salvation.
Open Theism denies God’s perfect knowledge of the future; Calvinism affirms God’s perfect knowledge of the future.
Neither addresses a weakness in the Calvinist system but introduce their own weaknesses.

Nothing you say negates my point – “This just shows that you do not understand Molinism and apparently little about Arminianism. Kinda like your understanding of Calvinism.”

br.d
‘FALSE
The question of How/Why is especially important – because in Theological Determinism – HOW Calvin’s god makes his determination is stated as “SOLELY WITHIN HIMSELF”.

rhutchin
That’s a given. The question is then whether this negates man’s free will. If God and man both get what their will in any situation, has man’s will been negated?

br.d
More precisely – the question is whether or not Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines every determination the creature will ever have. Since he determines every neurological impulse the creature will ever have – the it LOGICALLY follows he determines every determination the creature will ever have.

On your equivocal term “subordinate”
“A person who is functioning as a puppet is going to make determinations that are “subordinate” to the puppet master…
Therefore “subordinate” is an equivocal term.”

rhutchin
A person who is functioning as a puppet does not make determinations.

br.d
And you say that I make claims!
Your LOGICAL argument here is zero
Here you are required to show USING LOGIC how a person who can made determinations – while functioning as a puppet – does not make determinations.

Good luck on that one! :-]

What is obvious – is that you make room for a Molinist position which is logically contrary and thus a denial of Calvin’s position – and use it to address a weakness in the Calvinist position.”

rhutchin
Molinism is a pre-creation theology. Calvinism is a post-creation theology. The theologies are mutually exclusive and neither is contrary to the other.

br.d
You definitely need to take an introductory course in elementary logic

In LOGIC and probability theory, two things are “mutually exclusive” or disjoint if they cannot both exist/occur at the same time.
In LOGIC “contrary” is defined as the relationship between two propositions in which they cannot both be true at the same time.

Theological Determinism and IN-determinism are both “mutually exclusive” and “contrary” they cannot both exist or be true at the same time.

Therefore since the classic Reformed/Thomistic view of divine concurrence is predicated on Theological Determinism – it is both “mutually exclusive” and “contrary” to the Molinist/Arminian view of simultaneous concurrence.

William Lane Craig – describes the difference
-quote
In the Molinist/Arminian view, secondary free agents are capable of willing one thing or another without being caused to do so by God.

In the Reformed/Thomistic view God causally determines everything that happens…thus he causes the secondary agent’s will to choose one way or the other. Your decision to believe in determinism was itself determined…and your present realization of that fact right now is likewise determined….for everything that you think, even this very thought itself, is outside your control.

rhutchin
The Arminian has man as the final arbiter of his salvation; Calvinism has God as the final arbiter of man’s salvation.
Open Theism denies God’s perfect knowledge of the future; Calvinism affirms God’s perfect knowledge of the future.
Neither addresses a weakness in the Calvinist system but introduce their own weaknesses.

br.d
These are again all nothing but claims – or more likely nothing more than talking-points.

Its obvious there are aspects of Theological Determinism you find unpalatable.
That is quite natural
And that is the reason John Calvin instructs his disciples to DOUBLE-THINK.
-quote “go about your office AS-IF nothing is determined in every part” – (when my doctrine tells you the opposite)

rhutchin
Nothing you say negates my point – “This just shows that you do not understand Molinism and apparently little about Arminianism. Kinda like your understanding of Calvinism.”

br.d
As has been shown clearly – you don’t REALLY make points – making points requires LOGIC – you’ve simply made unproven claims.

Like the banana man pulls out an endless string of bananas out of his pocket
You pull out an endless string of what Calvinist Paul Kjoss Helseth calls INSCRUTABLE MECHANISMS.

Your claims are nothing more than attempts to make Theological Determinism masquerade as IN-determinism

br.d writes, ‘More precisely – the question is whether or not Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines every determination the creature will ever have. Since he determines every neurological impulse the creature will ever have – the it LOGICALLY follows he determines every determination the creature will ever have.”

The unanswered question is whether this negates free will given that determinism is not coercive.

Then, ‘Here you are required to show USING LOGIC how a person who can made determinations – while functioning as a puppet – does not make determinations.”

A puppet is not coerced to act by the one controlling him and does not fight against that control. Does the puppet make determinations? No way to tell – one must assume it, as you do. That sets up a begging the question situation where your assumption (the puppet makes determinations) dictates your conclusion that those determinations mean something 9what they mean, you don’t say).

Then, “William Lane Craig – describes the difference
-quote
In the Molinist/Arminian view, secondary free agents are capable of willing one thing or another without being caused to do so by God.”

Of course, all this happen sin the mind of God who conceives whatever He wants and does it first. So, what does Craig mean by, “secondary free agents are capable of willing one thing or another without being caused to do so by God”? Probably the same thing that Calvinists mean in the real world, post creation. In each situation, “the causes the secondary agent’s will to choose one way or the other< " but not by coercing that outcome. Isaiah 10 illustrates this with the actions of the Assyrians who do they will of God and are rightly judged by God for doing so.

Then, 'These are again all nothing but claims – or more likely nothing more than talking-points."

Not disputed, even by you. Do you want to dispute what I said and offer your alternate explanation?

Then, "Your claims are nothing more than attempts to make Theological Determinism masquerade as IN-determinism"

So you claim – but without defining indeterminism which makes it a claim without substance..

br.d
‘More precisely – the question is whether or not Calvin’s god (at the foundation of the world) determines every determination the creature will ever have. Since he determines every neurological impulse the creature will ever have – the it LOGICALLY follows he determines every determination the creature will ever have.”

rhutchin
The unanswered question is whether this negates free will given that determinism is not coercive.

br.d
FALSE
One’s definition of the word “free” is not at focus here.
What is at focus here is whether or not *ALL* things which come to pass (which would obviously include creaturely determinations) are determined millennia before the creature exists by Calvin’s god.

And determined by an UNCONDITIONAL decree…based on NOTHING OUTSIDE HIMSELF that moves him to choose one thing or another” (per the Reformed definition provided by Calvinist John Feinberg – which you affirm)

This is either TRUE or FALSE
You appear to want your answer to this question to be yea and nay at the same time.

rhutchin
A puppet is not coerced to act by the one controlling him and does not fight against that control. Does the puppet make determinations? No way to tell ….etc

br.d
Here you subtly shifted the object.
The object is a PERSON who is functioning as a puppet.
You made the claim – now provide the evidence

Your burden is to show how a PERSON who can make determinations – does not do so just because that PERSON is functioning as a puppet.

Then, “William Lane Craig – describes the difference
-quote
In the Molinist/Arminian view, secondary free agents are capable of willing one thing or another without being caused to do so by God.”

rhutchin
Of course, all this happen sin the mind of God who conceives whatever He wants and DOES IT FIRST.

br.d
Your language here is too ambiguous to be TRUSTWORTHY – Calvin’s god DOES WHAT FIRST?

rhutchin
So, what does Craig mean by, “secondary free agents are capable of willing one thing or another without being caused to do so by God”? Probably the same thing that Calvinists mean in the real world, post creation

br.d
Since John Calvin asserts these two things:
A) All things are determined at the foundation of the world and in every part
B) Go about your office AS-IF nothing is determined in any part

What Calvinists say (or mean by what they say) is untrustworthy.
You for example recently asserted Theological Determinism = coercion
And then you flipped to the opposite position in order to align yourself with Edwards.
So what a Calvinist says is irrelevant.

What is relevant is what is LOGICALLY COHERENT.

Your appeal to the question of coercion is also an irrelevant red herring.

rhutchin
Do you want to dispute what I said and offer your alternate explanation?

br.d
When there is a LOGICAL argument to analyze – (whether coherent or not) I have and will continue to do so.

“Your claims are nothing more than attempts to make Theological Determinism masquerade as IN-determinism”

rhutchin
So you claim – but without defining indeterminism which makes it a claim without substance..

br.d
We’ve had this discussion before – and I provided a definition for IN-determinism.

Right now we are focused on the question of whether or not Calvin’s god (before the creature exists) determines every determination the creature will ever have – by an UNCONDITIONAL decree…based on NOTHING OUTSIDE HIMSELF that moves him to choose one thing or another”

My form of Open Theism does not deny “God’s perfect knowledge of the future”, it affirms it. It would be like me saying – “Calvinism denies God’s perfect knowledge of the future because they believe He can only know it to be limited to and locked in to working out only one way to be called ‘perfect'”.

rhutchin
Calvin also wrote, “This is intimated by John in his Epistle, when he says that [Satan] “sinneth from the beginning,” (1Jn 3: 8) implying that he is the AUTHOR, leader, and contriver of all malice and wickedness.”

br.d

-quote: “It is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the *AUTHOR* of them.” (Eternal Predestination of God, p.176).

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly….can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate…..unless in so far as He COMMANDS. They are not only bound by His fetters but are even *FORCED* to do Him service.” (Institutes I, 17, 11).

Since Calvin elsewhere makes EXPLICIT statements on his god’s AUTHORSHIP of Satan’s conceptions and actions – its obvious this is an attempt to IMPLY Calvin making a contradiction to what he EXPLICITLY asserts.

br.d writes, “Since Calvin elsewhere makes EXPLICIT statements on his god’s AUTHORSHIP of Satan’s conceptions and actions – its obvious this is an attempt to IMPLY Calvin making a contradiction to what he EXPLICITLY asserts.”

It says that Calvin saw God as sovereign who uses Satan as He used the Assyrains in Isaiah 10.

br.d
“Since Calvin elsewhere makes EXPLICIT statements on his god’s AUTHORSHIP of Satan’s conceptions and actions – its obvious this is an attempt to IMPLY Calvin making a contradiction to what he EXPLICITLY asserts.”

rhutchin
It says that Calvin saw God as sovereign who uses Satan as He used the Assyrains in Isaiah 10.

br.d
In that case – we can insert the Assyrians into Calvin’s quotes

quote: “It is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits [Assyrian evil thoughts and deeds], when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the *AUTHOR* of [Assyrian evil thoughts and deeds] ” (Eternal Predestination of God, p.176).

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly….
– can neither conceive any mischief, [concerning the Assyrian’s]
– nor plan what they have conceived, [concerning the Assyrian’s]
– nor how they may have planned, ….move a single finger to perpetrate [concerning the Assyrian’s]

unless in so far as He COMMANDS. [Satan and his host] are not only bound by His fetters but are even *FORCED* to do Him service.” (Institutes I, 17, 11).

Calvin quote:
“It is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits [Assyrian evil thoughts and deeds], when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the *AUTHOR* of [Assyrian evil thoughts and deeds] ” (Eternal Predestination of God, p.176).

rhutchin
Meaning that God does not decree anything to happen that is not in accord with His eternal plan.

br.d
Meaning that Calvin’s god’s eternal plan was to AUTHOR the [Assyrian evil thoughts and deeds]

Calvin quote
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly….
– can neither conceive any mischief, [concerning the Assyrian’s]
– nor plan what they have conceived, [concerning the Assyrian’s]
– nor how they may have planned, ….move a single finger to perpetrate [concerning the Assyrian’s]

rhutchin
Had they not conceived such, then they would not pursue such.

br.d
Had Calvin’s god not RENDERED-CERTAIN they conceive otherwise they would have conceived otherwise.

Calvin quote
“unless in so far as He COMMANDS. [Satan and his host] are not only bound by His fetters but are even *FORCED* to do Him service.””

rhutchin
Satan cannot pursue Job except God say he can do so. The Assyrians cannot pursue Israel except God say they can. Thereby they are forced to do God’s service.

rhutchin
Had they not conceived such, then they would not pursue such.

br.d
Had Calvin’s god RENDERED-CERTAIN they conceive otherwise they would have conceived otherwise.

br.d
Jesus commands his disciples to “render to God that which is attributable to God – and to man that which is attributable to man”.
But Calvinists area constantly attributing to man – that which was RENDERED-CERTAIN by Calvin’s god.

This is obviously a command from Jesus – the Calvinist refuses to obey.

The question then is –
are Calvinists RENDERED-CERTAIN by Calvin’s god – to disobey his commands. :-]

br.d writes, “The question then is – are Calvinists RENDERED-CERTAIN by Calvin’s god – to disobey his commands.”

Yes. Even Moses had that figured out: Deuteronomy 31
26 “Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.
27 “For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the LORD; how much more, then, after my death?
28 “Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them.
29 “For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.”

Which people are never really able to show how Calvinism does this – despite many claims of such. Even you never really get into the Calvinist interpretation of specific Scripture (I think, for obvious reasons – meaning that it is easier to make a claim than support the claim).

br.d
But human interpretations do not rule – especially when those interpretations turn scripture into double-speak.”

rhutchin
Which people are never really able to show how Calvinism does this

br.d
Of course this is from your perspective – and we can understand why.
But Calvinist double-speak is well understood here and by many others.
I provided quotes from 5 authors who have written books on Calvinism – and all of them used the term double-speak or doubletalk.

Showing it to a Calvinist…..one can lead a horse to water but one can’t make him drink.

As William Lane Craig states – that’s just an issue of Calvinist psychology.

rhutchin wrote, “Which people are never really able to show how Calvinism does this.”
br.d writes, “Of course this is from your perspective…”

But even here, you are unable to show how Calvinism does this. Certainly, one of the five authors you cited would have something you could present. Why don’t you present something – how hard is it to cut and paste??

rhutchin
“Which people are never really able to show how Calvinism does this.”

br.d
“Of course this is from your perspective…”

rhutchin
But even here, you are unable to show how Calvinism does this.

br,d
Show who?

Others here recognized it without question – and I’ve provided quotes from William Lane Craig, Dr. Jerry Walls, a number of web-sites – and quotations from 5 books all using the words “double-speak” or “double-talk”.

I’m not responsible to prove anything to any individual person.
All I need do is show how Calvinist language works – and provide professional insights which Dr. Bela Depaulo and William Lutz provide

People understand what Altruistic Dishonesty is and what Double-Speak is
And when they can connect the dots and recognize these within Calvinist language I’ve done my job as a good and faithful servant. :-]

br.d writes, “Others here recognized it without question – and I’ve provided quotes from William Lane Craig, Dr. Jerry Walls, a number of web-sites – and quotations from 5 books all using the words “double-speak” or “double-talk”.

I’m not responsible to prove anything to any individual person.
All I need do is show how Calvinist language works – and provide professional insights which Dr. Bela Depaulo and William Lutz provide”

In other words, a person can make any claim he wants against Calvinism without demonstrating that the claim is true. That is what I have observed also about non-Calvinist arguments.

br.d
Others here recognized it without question – and I’ve provided quotes from William Lane Craig, Dr. Jerry Walls, a number of web-sites – and quotations from 5 books all using the words “double-speak” or “double-talk”.

I’m not responsible to prove anything to any individual person.
All I need do is show how Calvinist language works – and provide professional insights which Dr. Bela Depaulo and William Lutz provide”

rhutchin
In other words, a person can make any claim he wants against Calvinism without demonstrating that the claim is true. That is what I have observed also about non-Calvinist arguments.

br.d
Now you’ve simply gone into your tail chasing mode again.
There are many participants here.
It would be a real cool gig to be positioned as the sole judge and arbitrator of all things demonstrated at SOT101
Fortunately for the rest of us – that is not the case.

rhutchin writes:
“In other words, a person can make any claim he wants against Calvinism without demonstrating that the claim is true. That is what I have observed also about non-Calvinist arguments.”

In other words, ‘I’ll keep ignoring sound logic, even when my inconsistencies are revealed point by point, and keep making my logically unsound and inconsistent arguments.’

You can’t blame him, because so many people refuse to do the critical thinking, and just rely on the prepackaged defense included in whatever ‘belief’ system they select off of the shelf. It’s just like the faith people put in modern medicine, taking whatever dangerous drugs their trusted doctor prescribes. When my now deceased mother-in-law was diagnosed with a severe form of dementia, she was prescribed a brand new drug. When I researched it, (as I am prone to do) reading the actual studies, the best it could offer was to maybe add about 5 days to the patient’s life. I kid you not. The cost was astronomical, and the list of side effects was so ghastly, no one would want to live through them anyway. (And yes, she suffered through most of them.) All of my in laws thought I was nuts to question the doctor.

TS00 writes, “You can’t blame him, because so many people refuse to do the critical thinking, and just rely on the prepackaged defense included in whatever ‘belief’ system they select off of the shelf.”

What I find ironic about Calvinists – is all of their finger pointing at others calling them “man-centered” for attributing powers to man which are only reserved for Calvin’s god.

But then when the logical implications of their assertions backfire on them and they need to defend their god against being the “author of evil” – suddenly they flip and the only answer they have is to give the very attributions to man they accuse others of giving..

And then after that – they never ever connect the dots!
Trying to explain or demonstrate something LOGICAL to a person who’s mind is in that condition is an act of futility. :-]

br.d. writes:
“And then after that – they never ever connect the dots!
Trying to explain or demonstrate something LOGICAL to a person who’s mind is in that condition is an act of futility. :-]”

This is a feature, not a bug. You, my friend, are limited by logical consistency and honesty. But those who have built their castles on clouds can simply add spire after imaginary spire. There is no limit to what one can imagine when all is fantasy.

William Lane Craig does a video taped presentation to groups and one has to do with aspects of Calvinism.
There are at least a 2 or 3 Calvinists in the audience and he gives people opportunities to express things.
There are a number of occasions where different individuals will take the microphone and happily recite some highly imaginative invention they’ve come up with to explain Calvinism.

Dr. Craig will carefully step-by-step go through those and explain how they are not logical.

But you know without question – those people aren’t accepting one single word he’s saying – no matter low obvious it is.
They’ll walk out of there making believe whatever their imagination comes up with is “of god”
And ignore everything else.

Oh yes, I know many such people. They simply refuse to take off the blinders and look objectively at the logic. Hey, if all these Big Dogs believe it, why would I ever question it? I’m not impressed by anybody’s Big Dogs. We have all been given the same sort of minds to examine the same evidence. Why do I need to rely on what someone else says?

TS00
Hey, if all these Big Dogs believe it, why would I ever question it? I’m not impressed by anybody’s Big Dogs. We have all been given the same sort of minds to examine the same evidence. Why do I need to rely on what someone else says?

br.d
This reminds me of the research done by Dr. Robert Cialdini – in his published work “Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion”

He calls this “social proof”.

Its really about the respecting of persons.
People look up to “special ones” among themselves who are the raised up as the “cut above the rest”.
And whatever those “voices of influence” do and say – becomes what those people will follow.

So when the sacred Calvinist teacher uses double-speak to explain something – all the little devotees memorize and recite. :-]

br.d writes, “Massaging Calvin’s statements to make them paint a different picture than Calvin himself painted
must keep Calvinists *VERY* busy! ”

Not really. After Calvin, people have refined his system. For example, Jonathan Edwards dealt with the issue of free will in some depth and John Owen dealt with the issue of limited atonement. Calvin’s basic system remains in tact.

If that don’t beat all . . . rhutchin just negated all of his years of defending Calvinism in one little sentence. Imagine, man determining things . . . but of course he will try and yea and nay his way out of it, and insist that God somehow determines what man self-determines without being responsible for them. (Actually, he’ll probably try to work in the ol’ indeterminist ‘allow’ or ‘permit’, but you have laid that silliness to rest.) Poor fella; it must be annoying to constantly contradict oneself.

TS00 responds, “If that don’t beat all . . . rhutchin just negated all of his years of defending Calvinism in one little sentence. Imagine, man determining things .
but of course he will try and yea and nay his way out of it

rhutchin
Read Jonathan Edwards’ paper on free will.

br.d
So what is the actual NUMBER of those “SOME [things] which are [self-determined] by man”
Which Calvin’s god didn’t determine and RENDER-CERTAIN before every man was born?

It will be nice to know HOW MANY of those “self-determinations” Calvin’s god didn’t determine and RENDER-CERTAIN?

br.d
‘It logically follows that nothing can falsify or negate the existence which Calvin’s god RENDERED-CERTAIN to event [X]. ”

rhutchin
Yes.

br.d
Very good!
Now since we know that [X] and [NOT X] are contrary mutual exclusives – in that [NOT X] would falsify/negate [X]
Then it follows that where Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN the existence of [X]
He also by perfect knowledge knows (as a consequence) – he has RENDERED-CERTAIN [NOT X] will NOT exist.

br.d writes, ‘Now since we know that [X] and [NOT X] are contrary mutual exclusives – in that [NOT X] would falsify/negate [X]
Then it follows that where Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN the existence of [X]
He also by perfect knowledge knows (as a consequence) – he has RENDERED-CERTAIN [NOT X] will NOT exist.”

br.d
‘Now since we know that [X] and [NOT X] are contrary mutual exclusives – in that [NOT X] would falsify/negate [X]
Then it follows that where Calvin’s god RENDERS-CERTAIN the existence of [X]
He also by perfect knowledge knows (as a consequence