Retch, I have read several of your posts on crossbows, and I think you are way off the mark. A crossbow is nothing more, than a compound bow, on it's side with a different release. It has a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there. It can be used with a sling, and it has a working safety. that is it. period. They have nothing more in common with long guns of any kind. To compare them is ridicules. It is no different from stepping up from a 20ga. to a 12ga. a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there. A scope is actually over-kill on a crossbow as it does not have enough accuracy to warrant it. reddot or pin sights are as accurate as the weapon involved. It is NOT the reach out and touch me death machine you make it out to be. The average crossbow as an effective range of 40 yards. the very best ones may go to 50 yards, True, it has a trigger, but so does your release (something I've never used) does that mean I should try to outlaw releases for everyone else? "Why should anyone use them releases? why they are just like rifles! triggers and all!," It just a more effective bow, It does not improve your hunting skills, or call in game for you. It does not operate as a Gatling gun, or spew death across the landscape. It just makes that one, hard earned shot more likely to be fatal due to higher chance of pass through (two holes instead of one) and a slightly longer range. I have shot longbows, recurves, compounds, and footbows! I chose the crossbow because it has a better chance of a clean kill. To use a less effective killing tool,(IE: bow) could be seen as unethical! By the way, you did a great job on that smoker. That impressed me.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

kellory wrote: Retch, I have read several of your posts on crossbows, and I think you are way off the mark. A crossbow is nothing more, than a compound bow, on it's side with a different release.

The folks from Excalibur crossbows would object to your broad brush.

kellory wrote: It has a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there. It can be used with a sling, and it has a working safety. that is it. period.

We both know better than that. I have owned and shoot crossbows for nearly 30 years. You might be trying to convince those that don’t know the truth but don’t try and pull the wool over these baby blues. Check out the TAC 15. A bow is also not held at full draw for an unlimited time and shot from a rest/rail

kellory wrote: They have nothing more in common with long guns of any kind. To compare them is ridicules. It is no different from stepping up from a 20ga. to a 12ga. a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there.

Again, I was born at night but it wasn’t last night. I was wanting to participate on par with bicyclists but didn’t have the time or patience or level of commitment for cycling so I showed up with a motorcycle on the basis that it has 2 wheels and handle bars, a seat and carried a passenger so they are essentially the same thing but was told that they are different enough that they cannot participate equally because of all the advantages and that my choice was not the same type of device at human powered devices.

I was wanting to participate on par with kayakers but didn’t have the time or patience or level of commitment for kayaking so I showed up with a jet ski on the basis that it has a hull, is a water craft, it has a seat and carried a passenger but was told that they are different enough that they cannot participate equally because of all the advantages and that my choice was not the same type of device at human powered devices. .

I was wanting to participate on par with crosscut saw users but didn’t have the time or patience or level of commitment for bucksawing so I showed up with a chainsaw on the basis that it has a blade, handle and is used for cutting wood but was told that they are different enough that they cannot participate equally because of all the advantages and that my choice was not the same type of device at human powered devices.

I was wanting to participate on par with Olympic power lifter but didn’t have the time or patience or level of commitment for the clean and jerk so I asked if they could suspend the bar by hanging the weights from the ceiling with chains and I would just walk under and grip the bar as it should not matter if the weight is held for me since its almost the same thing but they said I cannot participate equally because of all the advantages and that my choice was not the same type of device at human powered devices.

I mean, c’mon, they are almost the same thing and hardly warrant classifying them as different. Whats with people and rules? Cant a guy just do anything he wants, when he wants and where he wants?

kellory wrote: Retch, I have read several of your posts on crossbows, and I think you are way off the mark. A crossbow is nothing more, than a compound bow, on it's side with a different release. "The folks from Excalibur crossbows would object to your broad brush."They can object all they like, the fact is what it is. As it has been from the middle ages! The tech has improved, just as bows have, but that is what it is. kellory wrote: It has a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there. It can be used with a sling, and it has a working safety. that is it. period.

"We both know better than that. I have owned and shoot crossbows for nearly 30 years. You might be trying to convince those that don’t know the truth but don’t try and pull the wool over these baby blues. Check out the TAC 15. A bow is also not held at full draw for an unlimited time and shot from a rest/rail"

The posted effective range for my crossbow is 40 yards as specified by the manufacturer, and you know the manufacturer will claim it's best, not it's least. This is normal for the industry, give or take a few yards. Yes, if you go high dollar you can buy a more powerful, faster compound from Excalibur or Ten Point, just as you can have a thousand dollar bow, that is the best available for speed and stealth. You can steady a bow against a tree or rail if you wish, but I have never rested a crossbow on anything to steady it. Nor does holding it cocked play much of a part. I shoot a bow by instinct without sights and fire when I reach full draw. I never draw till I have the shot already. Being cocked plays no real part for me.

kellory wrote: They have nothing more in common with long guns of any kind. To compare them is ridicules. It is no different from stepping up from a 20ga. to a 12ga. a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there.

Again, I was born at night but it wasn’t last night. I was wanting to participate on par with bicyclists but didn’t have the time per patience or level of commitment for cycling so I showed up with a motorcycle on the basis that it has 2 wheels and handle bars, a seat and carried a passenger but was told that they are different enough that they cannot participate equally because of all the advantages and that my choice was not the same type of device at human powered devices.Other than a little more range, and A heavier punch when It get there, There IS no real advantage. It does not make you a better hunter, it does not call in game. It will not make up for being a lousy hunter, or improve your aim. All the same craft that is necessary to get within bowshot is necessary to get within crossbow range. If you can't get within bowshot, you will do no better with a crossbow. It is a better choice of weapon not due to some mythical range but because it makes a better hole when it hits. The force of the impact is better at making sure what you hit stays down. It is more like the difference between being shot with a 38 or a 44. Range is not the issue but TRAUMA after impact! It does not make you a better hunter, it makes you a better killer. As to your ambitions for boating, lumber-jacking, and cycling and weightlifting, None of them apply as you are adding a motor in place of yourself to three of four, and not even attempting the weightlifting. That would be equal to hunting by watching it on TV. I Pull the full 150lb of force with my recurve crossbow, and less with my compound crossbow, just as you do with a bow. I just do it sooner. The fact it is held for me doesn't matter. Your release holds for you instead of your fingers. It removes the strain from your hand and fingers just as the crossbow removes the need to hold the bow string. I am more tired after using my crossbow than using my bow. My bow is much easier to carry and lighter and there is less to go wrong with it. It is quieter, and faster to reload. I have the chance of a second shot with a bow where I can kiss a second crossbow shot goodbye. It makes too much noise for that. If I find my deer, and if I hit my mark, it makes that one shot more likely to be fatal. The rest is still up to me.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

kellory wrote: They can object all they like, the fact is what it is. As it has been from the middle ages! The tech has improved, just as bows have, but that is what it is. kellory wrote: It has a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there. It can be used with a sling, and it has a working safety. that is it. period.

Your myopic view and level of denial will make having a meaningful discussion very challenging. Simply saying “the fact is what it is” does not make your statement factual or one of substance.

kellory wrote: The posted effective range for my crossbow is 40 yards as specified by the manufacturer, and you know the manufacturer will claim it's best, not it's least. This is normal for the industry, give or take a few yards. Yes, if you go high dollar you can buy a more powerful, faster compound from Excalibur or Ten Point, just as you can have a thousand dollar bow, that is the best available for speed and stealth. You can steady a bow against a tree or rail if you wish, but I have never rested a crossbow on anything to steady it. Nor does holding it cocked play much of a part. I shoot a bow by instinct without sights and fire when I reach full draw. I never draw till I have the shot already. Being cocked plays no real part for me.

You are either very new to crossbows or not willing to be intellectually honest. You say being cocked plays no real part. Then I suggest you wait until the game is within shooting range to cock your crossbow. We both know you don’t and wont do that because of the huge advantage there is in being cocked, locked and ready to rock. Remember, I have owned and shot crossbow for 30 years. It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself with your words but know that I have been there and done that so I wont be falling for BS.

kellory wrote: They have nothing more in common with long guns of any kind. To compare them is ridicules. It is no different from stepping up from a 20ga. to a 12ga. a little more range, and a bigger punch when it gets there.

kellory wrote: Other than more range, and A heavier punch when It get there, There IS no real advantage.

You left out the fact its already drawn and locked in the fully drawn position and can be shot from a rest position so it has more range, has more punch, is already drawn and can be shot from a rest and you hope to convince yourself that there is no real advantage. That might be the funniest thing I have read in some time. You acknowledge that real advantages and then end by saying there is no real advantage. Surely even you can see the humor in that since you contradict yourself over and over.

Retch, I suggest you add to your library the following book, it is available on Amazon for about $35. , I have the hardcover version. A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: in All Countries and in All Times George Cameron Stone (* August 6, 1859 in Geneva, New York; † November 18, 1935 in New York City, New York) was a well-known American arms collector and author as well as an American mining engineer and metallurgist. He authored a glossary of the antique weapons of the world that remains one of the most comprehensive works ever written on the subject. I am neither young, nor new to crossbows, nor am I in denile of the facts. I quote" The european crossbow of the middle ages. All of the varieties consist Of a heavy bow mounted on a stock with a groove on the top for an arrow, and a mechanical arrangement for holding and releasing the string............the eariiest crossbows comparatively light bows that could be drawn by hand, the stock being braced against the body. As they became stronger the bow was placed on the ground and the feet on it holding it down, while the arms and back were used to pull the string. Up to this time the bow had been lashed to the end of the stock. Later, it was passed through a mortise a few inches back from the end of the stock and a metal stippup was added to place the foot in while pulling the bow................Many of the lighter crossbows shoot clayballs and were used for game. They also made and used repeating crossbows(see Chu-Ko-Nu) ......Crossbows vary from toys with 1 foot bow, to huge affairs mounted to carraiges like field guns.....The Japanese used some in fortresses that had a twelve foot bow with a 1 foot circumfrence........Chu-Ko-Nu, is a repeating crossbow from China. The bolts are contained in a box sliding atop the stock, and moved by a lever pivioted to each. Throwing the lever forward and back draws the bow, places the bolt, and discharges the weapon. Some fired two bolts at once. The chinese used this weapon as late as 1894 -1895. It is a well made and practical weapon." I know my subject Retch, and I do not appriciate being treated as some fool who just doesn't know any better. The wool is over your baby blues already. I did not put it there. I did not contridict myself, I used words like (OTHER THAN) a little longer range and a heaver punch when it get there. There is no real advantage. For me this is true. I draw only when I have a shot. If you draw and hold it for ten minutes waiting for the deer to move just a little more, then a crossbow would work well for you. I do not. I do not get the arm fitigue from holding a drawn bow, simply because I don't do it. I draw and fire in one motion. So there is no advantage for me in being held. I could legally use the Chu-Ko-Nu, mounted on a pintle mount like a machine gun and it would still not be a rifle. It does not have the range, or the speed of projectile, or speed of reload. No matter what size, or use, it is still a bow on it's side, with a different kind of release. Crossbows( for hunting) have a high and low power restriction, just like bows, and those restrictions prevent crossbows from EVER matching the performance of rifles!

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

The denial continues. Your history lesson means nothing today as the current market is what is in play. I have been a crossbow owner for 29 years. I have 3 of them. I don’t have the new self cocking version from Parker that both cocks and uncocks the bolt with the push of a button and I don’t have the PSE TAC 15 that shoots fist sized groups at 100 yards (see video) There are 100 and longer shots on youtube with compounds but if that person gave that compound bow to anybody else they would fail miserably. but I know that these technological marvels that are the crossbows of 2011 will be considered toys compared to crossbows of 5 years from now. You hope to distract away from today by talking of history. Nobody is falling for that. That is why having a real conversation of substance with you is proving to be a wasted effort. You refuse to acknowledge the truth and instead fall back to an argument not grounded in reality but rather emotion and distraction. Nobody is insisting for ancient historical crossbows from China to be made legal. They are demanding the TAC 15 and Parker to be made legal.

I have watched your vidio, and that is an impressive crossbow, From a rested position, with a professional shooter. As I said, you can go high dollar and get the best of the best, just as you can spend $1000. on a bow, if you have that kind of money. But your average hunter can not afford those kind of toys, I know I can't. If you have a problem with the top 1 pecent, then go after them instead of painting all crossbows with your broad brush. Your problem is you treat all crossbows as if they can do what this one can( in the hands of a pro) and that's a load crap. No matter how you dress them up, and no matter what refinements are added, the fact is, it is still a bow by it's construction, and by it's function. Now, put that crossbow in the hands of your average shooter, without the professional tuning, and the best scope money can buy, and and it will fail by half. The shooter himself said he was shooting well beyond specs(60yards) and he is clearly well trained. You are comparing an overwieght jogger to am olympic sprinter!

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

I looked up the specs of this bow, and I believe it is already legal in Ohio! Precision-built performance, ground-breaking engineering, and a revolutionary concept! Forget everything you thought you knew about crossbows, the PSE TAC 15 sets new standards for accuracy, performance, and shootability. Designed to fit on any AR-15 lower receiver, the PSE TAC 15 features anti-dry-fire mechanism, leverage crank, and rail-less design. It all starts by incorporating the incredibly strong X Tech™ limbs into an extremely compact platform. The ultra-high performance twin-cam design shoots an amazing 412 fps and is capable of unprecedented accuracy. Plus, the PSE TAC 15 converts any AR-15 quickly and easily from a gun to a crossbow. Axle-to-axle: 16-3/4" at brace; 11-3/4" at full draw. 170-lb. peak weight. 17-1/4" powerstroke! Of course, it is listed for @1300 bucks and sold out. So thanks for introducing me to such a fine weapon! It is a long way out of my price range, but who knows, maybe I can pick one up cheap when the next generation come out! I'm no professional shooter, but it could extend my range to an effective 60yards per the manufacturer. And it will still be a bow on it's side, with a different release. That is how it stsrted out, and that is what it still is. The technolegy improves, but the facts remain.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.