chainsmoker wrote:This thread could go on like this forever until there is a rule to cover every possible situation and those rules are enforced constantly by an endless supply of rules enforcing officials, or at least one official to follow every player in every sanctioned event. Are the current PDGA rules perfect? No, they are from from perfect, but a larger number of rules isn't better.

I'm not arguing for MORE rules. I simply believe that if you have a rule, it should be enforceable and enforced uniformly. If a rule is being ignored, it should be removed or rewritten.

chainsmoker wrote:I find more parallels between golf discs and the grips on a golf club than I do golf discs and the heads of golf clubs or golf balls.

There are several clauses which cover the legality of grips in the Rules of Golf. Golf equipment is an order of magnitude more complex than disc golf equipment, but I'm trying not to compare this to golf per se, just "rules" from other sports in general.

Disc golf is still playing, from where I'm standing, with a set of rules that are much closer to sandlot or playground rules rather than the true, established rules. Golfers by and large roll their golf balls, concede their own putts, and all sorts of stuff that isn't allowed during their casual rounds, just as there are varying rules for three-on-three basketball with one hoop, or sandlot baseball with four players on a side and no catcher, but those rules tighten up and get much longer at the top levels, and for people playing in sanctioned competitions, whether they're the NFL or high school football.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The disc specs came about for a variety of reasons with safety (read: liability) and some dimensional uniformity being the primary driving forces as the game evolved. If you have weight, material, edge sharpness and flex standards, the thought was that at least the sport overall had some nominal standards to reduce possible injury should the feared "big lawsuit" ever come about.

That's interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

So to be clear, you're saying that the primary driving force behind disc golf's equipment rules was not to set boundaries for disc performance, but to try to make the game as safe as possible? That boundaries for performance were second (or maybe third - depends on what you mean by "uniformity") behind safety.

I applaud the desire for safety. It makes sense, as disc golf is often played in public parks and not on established fields where people know that a baseball or hockey puck may come whizzing at their heads if they're not paying attention.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The max & min size standards had more to do with allowing the target manufacturer (DGA at the time) to know what they might be expected to catch and retain in the basket and not fall thru.

This seems to indicate that boundaries for performance is not included in the "uniformity" section, making that at least third on the list of priorities? Or have I read that wrong?

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The post production modification clause was inserted to make sure enough players would have access to some unknown new disc design tweak. That's why minimum production quantities were also in there. Apparently, some players were either getting or had in the past been getting access to new discs before their competitors, sometimes right before Worlds. The design advances at the time with the new beveled edge technology were enough that it mattered. It probably matters quite a bit less at this point now that many discs are bumping up against the spec limits. So as Ellis points out, no one is really afraid of someone tweaking a disc for an advantage. But the spec remains more for the competitive fairness issue where enough players should have access to some sort of tweak via the disc approval process and sufficient production quantities being available for player access.

Thanks. I understand all of that, but don't you agree that a putter that's overweight is an advantage on a windy day? Do you agree that the Rules regarding post-production modification, as they're currently written, are not enforceable?

Again, if a rule is not followed, I suggest that it's a bad rule and should be removed or re-written. If disc golf isn't set up (i.e. doesn't have the money) to enforce some of these rules regarding modifications, why have 'em? Players can pour boiling water in their discs to flatten them or add dome, but they can't put a sticker with their name on the underside of the disc to keep the value higher for resale because a sticker has "detectable thickness"?

And I see Mark responded to it, but I'd like your take on what I consider the really stupid rule for 2013 about questioning the legality of another player's disc. Given the letter of the rules right now, is this not a potentially problematic rules change?

Mark Ellis wrote:If a player throws his disc into a thick bush but tries to take his next shot from the middle of the fairway I will stop him and tell him he cannot do this under the rules. The rules should prevent anyone from an unfair competitive advantage. But if a player is sneaking a beer at lunch in a park which is alcohol free I won't call the cops on him. He is breaking a rule which doesn't matter to the fairness of the competition. Some rules I just don't care about.

Rules aren't the same as laws.

Life's not fair, but at the same time, a person jaywalking has not gained an advantage over me in the "game" of "life." They're not more likely to "win" at life because they jaywalked, or drank a beer in a non-alcohol zone. Conversely a player breaking a rule in a game HAS gained an advantage, he HAS affected my ability to win. Competition is zero-sum, life is not.

Mark Ellis wrote:Yet to you evidently every rule should be enforced (or re-written so it can be enforced). But you say YOU don't call players on rule violations. Why don't you call everything and make citizens arrests for every law you see broken anywhere in society? Why bother to write any rules if even you won't enforce them?

Rules aren't laws.

And I never wrote that I didn't call players on rules violations. In match play situations I've not because ignoring them is still within the rules. The only person that potentially harms is me. If I'm putting for three from 20 feet and my opponent is lying four in the bunker, brushes the sand on his backstroke and splashes out to 25 feet, I'm not going to call the bunker violation because I'll win the hole regardless. That's perfectly acceptable under the Rules for match play.

In stroke play, however, I've never called a rules violation. That's not because I have decided not to, it's because I've never witnessed one. If I did, I'd call it. I have an obligation to protect the field. I will not hesitate to call a penalty should it ever occur in a stroke play event. That's not to say there haven't been penalties called. I've called two penalties on myself in several hundred rounds of stroke play competition, and I recall at least six other instances in which golfers called penalties on themselves. Had they not, I would have. I'm obligated to.

Mark Ellis wrote:If you are correct about the new rule coming in 2013 then this sounds like a terrible rule. My competitor makes his first 3 putts. I question the legality of his putter. Now he can't use it until a TD rules on it? Either a huge backlog occurs as the group waits for the TD to be located (he is playing in a group 3 holes in front of you but you don't know it) or the player is deprived the use of his disc. For all you guys who carry small bags this might be scary. And what is to stop me from questioning every disc in everyone's bag?

Precisely. So we agree that it's a bad rule, particularly given the way the letter of the rules are written regarding what makes a disc legal or illegal, yes?

Mark Ellis wrote:And for any who believe in the STRICT enforcement of PDGA rules, what would happen if every Amateur player were called on every foot fault?

Why shouldn't they?

Why is this "look the other way" attitude so prevalent? If someone stepping to the side of that 30cm line that extends behind their marker is not "unfair" because they're not gaining any advantage, why isn't the rule changed to define the allowable region as a circle, triangle, square, rectangle, or some other shape? Something that's equally as fair but less likely to be missed accidentally and, again, providing no advantage?

Why not change the rules so that "the way they're commonly enforced" is how they actually read? Why not set disc and equipment rules that are enforceable?

From where I'm sitting, if a rule isn't enforceable, it's not a very good rule to begin with, and if players at the top level of the game (not the sandlot equivalent) are routinely ignoring a rule, then it too isn't a very good rule.

Do you agree with that?

P.S. Yes, "rules" discussions interest me, particularly in golf and disc golf where the rules are, by and large, self-enforced. I like that.

I play recreational hockey and there's no real honor code in that sport like there is in golf. We're a non-checking league (grrrr), but if I can hit someone a little bit and get away with it, I do it just like everyone else. The obligation to enforce the rules is not on the hockey players, it's on the refs. Disc golf and golf put that responsibility with the players themselves. That makes them unique and interesting to me - no other sports really do this. They all have officials.

Sometimes i wonder who the lawyer is iacas or mark Not pick a nit i have altered a couple of discs that i don't use in competition to see what they do. Achieving at least a part of the desired changes allowed me to throw better and score better so it would be a violation against the field in stroke play. A professional lawyer probably knows which battles to fight and when thus knowing why. I'm not defending the rules because just like anything they could be improved. A lot in this case. I do not wonder that a pro lawyer is not willing to fight everything in the rules if the benefits are not worth the hassle. There are rules problems that hurt the growth of the sport more. Like penalizing yourself is a hazard for betting.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

As I said rules discussions interest me. Golf and disc golf pretty much stand alone (well, there are two of them anyway, but you know what I mean ) in the world of sport as having self-enforced rules. Every other sport is played "best" by trying to gain an advantage and trying to get away with it. I've always liked that golf is not that way.

JR wrote:I'm not defending the rules because just like anything they could be improved. A lot in this case.

I don't know how much they could be improved, but I agree they could be. So why aren't they? Why are people so reluctant to want to talk about how they could be improved?

JR wrote:There are rules problems that hurt the growth of the sport more. Like penalizing yourself is a hazard for betting.

Golf has players penalizing themselves and is one of the ultimate betting sports (the handicap system is almost geared towards betting).

I guess I'm just surprised at how different the attitude towards the rules is from golf to disc golf.

Have you heard the term taking a dive in boxing getting money betting against yourself or being coerced by criminals? Disc golf has the roots in hippies and they aren't so interested in rules, more on fun and karmic law and to an extent it has carried over. It is not fun to see someone to weasel with rules and then needing to bicker about it. Nobody goes out to fight about rules it takes away from the fun of playing and throwing. That is the reward in throwing or competing for most not winning by any means. It is also a self respect and life philosophy issue. The world is too much i grab more i win shit and those that do not like it sure don't want that reducing their joy in their hobby/profession in disc golf.

I'm sure that golf influences disc golf in spirit and rules to a degree but i don't know how things firmed in the early hippy days of golf. It must have been more of chill out dude that's cool stuff early on all about the fun. The rules lawyering has come later probably with money. The second PDGA official exam taker told me that he needed to do that to counter the blatant cheating going on. He told of a guy that always cheated a lot. Like picking his discs from OB and walking forward 100' into the middle of the fairway continuing from there without penalty. To counter that he was forced to take the exam. Apparently nobody liked to play with that cheater his attitude was what are you gonna do about it? To become an official was probably the only way to stop´things going from bad to worse and give the sport a chance to evolve. Who would put money into a lying contest? I didn't even throw the wind picked up my disc and put them into all of the baskets so my score is zero. All week in the worlds. That is cheater for you and those suck the joy out of everything even disc golf but the bigger problem is the lack of sponsors if that wasn't cut away from the sport.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

I agree that this is trolling, maybe not intentional, but it is trolling. Am I really supposed to believe that someone just started in this sport a few months ago and dislikes it so much that they make multiple JR length posts a day about what's wrong with the sport. Has there even been a recomendation given on how all of these rules attrocities could be remedied?

Here is some advice, if you just started playing disc golf and enjoy disc golf go out and PLAY disc golf. Learn the sport, play tournaments, help TDs run tournaments, contact the pdga about becoming a rules official if you want. You won't know anything about equipment until you really learn how to make discs fly, manipulate their flight, and see discs change as they age. This might sound silly to you, but many disc golfers have a relationship with their equipment that is unlike any other sport, and if the rules took that away it would be removing a major part of the sport.

There is no magic bullet, people who have been around much longer than I can tell you that all of the disc modifications in the world are not going to make a 950 rated player any better unless those modifications were so overt that it would be silly. After you know what disc golf is all about then you can start thinking about how the sport can be improved.

chainsmoker wrote:Am I really supposed to believe that someone just started in this sport a few months ago and dislikes it so much that they make multiple JR length posts a day about what's wrong with the sport. Has there even been a recomendation given on how all of these rules attrocities could be remedied?

I wonder if some of you even read his posts. Mostly iacas has been talking about the "Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal." and I agree that can be interpreted in ways that would make many things we are used to be doing to discs illegal. This could be a problem if they really add a rule that anyone can doubt if someones disc is illegal and it can't be used until inspected.I do tend to consider that the "modifications" in this rule mean something more than just tweaking the disc a bit more under- or overstable by bending it.

I haven't noticed him disliking the sport tho. I doubt anyone would have this much conversation over something they hated.

JR wrote:Disc golf has the roots in hippies and they aren't so interested in rules, more on fun and karmic law and to an extent it has carried over.

In the end, that may be the real root of it all for all I know. Golf and disc golf kind of seem to have started from opposite ends of the social spectrums.

So again, why write rules that aren't enforceable? If discs are made illegal by doing some things but nobody cares because boiling a disc to change its dome doesn't do anything, why aren't the rules written to allow such modifications?

It creates weird situations. Someone can extra hot stamp dents into their discs, dump boiling water in them to change the dome height, sand away a bit of the edge, but they can't put a sticker with their name on the underside of the flight plate because it's a "detectable thickness"?

And again, the whole 2013 rule throws a wrench into things. Maybe nobody will question the legality because they know their whole bag would be questioned out of retaliation, or maybe everyone will pretend that rule doesn't exist either... but why write that rule? (It's a bad rule IMO).

chainsmoker wrote:Am I really supposed to believe that someone just started in this sport a few months ago and dislikes it so much that they make multiple JR length posts a day about what's wrong with the sport. Has there even been a recomendation given on how all of these rules attrocities could be remedied?

I don't dislike the sport of disc golf. I like it quite a bit. I've met with the local townships to propose the installation of disc golf courses, I've begun fundraising, have traveled, am going to play in 90 minutes today, etc.

I'm simply trying to wrap my head around why some rules exist at all if they're not going to be enforced. I'm asking for "remedies" and instead of contributing, you just post this. Real helpful.

chainsmoker wrote:Here is some advice, if you just started playing disc golf and enjoy disc golf go out and PLAY disc golf. Learn the sport, play tournaments, help TDs run tournaments, contact the pdga about becoming a rules official if you want. You won't know anything about equipment until you really learn how to make discs fly, manipulate their flight, and see discs change as they age. This might sound silly to you, but many disc golfers have a relationship with their equipment that is unlike any other sport, and if the rules took that away it would be removing a major part of the sport.

I do wish you'd read what I have written. I think you could contribute to the thread. As I've said a few times, if people routinely ignore certain rules, why not just remove the rules or re-write them?

In golf, these rules would be enforced and people caught breaking them would be labeled cheaters. If Titleist was found to be producing golf balls out of spec, there would be a major shitstorm. There would literally be lawsuits, some of which questioned the legality of major championships and their winners. All hell would break loose.

In disc golf people would apparently mutter "meh" and go on. That doesn't make one right or wrong (again a lot more money in golf), just different, and I'm trying to wrap my head around why disc golf has rules it can't enforce. I'd just change them.

I don't know how. Golf rules regarding:a) the ball's distanceb) the ball's weightc) the ball's sized) the ball's uniformity (it can't fly differently when oriented differently)e) the club's lengthf) the clubhead sizeg) how springy the clubface can be

Balls are round. You can't make them

It seems to me that some of the rules on discs already limit their performance. I don't know that someone, under the current rules, can make a disc that goes 20% farther just by design.

Golf also has a rule that the clubhead must be "plain in shape" and then there are some rules after that, like "no holes through the clubface" and so on. Perhaps disc golf should allow any modifications that they want because they can't truly measure the "original flight characteristics." Put some guidelines in place like that the disc must remain round (no notches in the outer edge to grab chains better), you cant' have holes, you can't carve anything or append anything that modifies the overall dimensions (diameter, height) of the disc. That would legalize taped-on lights for glow rounds, putting a sticker under the flight plate with your name on it, and other things people seem to like to do.

But... technically I guess changing the dome height with boiling water would still be out, so maybe that won't work either.

chainsmoker wrote:There is no magic bullet, people who have been around much longer than I can tell you that all of the disc modifications in the world are not going to make a 950 rated player any better unless those modifications were so overt that it would be silly. After you know what disc golf is all about then you can start thinking about how the sport can be improved.

Then make those actions legal. If they don't affect the play (i.e. someone could just buy a different disc that got those qualities, or through play arrive at a disc that had those qualities, they're just speeding the process), why is it technically illegal? Remove that rule. Legalize widely accepted actions.

Varsi wrote:I wonder if some of you even read his posts. Mostly iacas has been talking about the "Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal." and I agree that can be interpreted in ways that would make many things we are used to be doing to discs illegal. This could be a problem if they really add a rule that anyone can doubt if someones disc is illegal and it can't be used until inspected.

Yes, that's the crux of it. The Rules of Disc Golf are making the actions of many illegal if you read the rules strictly. I bolded the critical parts. The Rules make virtually everyone a cheater and, because nobody can really know what the "original flight characteristics" of any one particular disc were, they're unenforceable.

The solution may be to simply remove 'em. Or modify them to allow for the currently illegal "disc modifications."

Varsi wrote:I haven't noticed him disliking the sport tho. I doubt anyone would have this much conversation over something they hated.

Yeah, definitely don't hate the sport. Quite the opposite.

P.S. I type over 100 WPM and work for myself, so I've got a lot of free time when I choose to have it. I can type things up while software compiles in the background, etc. That goes to explain the length of posts. I can type a lot while waiting for five minutes for a compile.

I also have alarm bells going in my head considering the 2013 rule. There is a way to increase the distance of the discs more than 20 % and it goes against the spirit and nature of golf and disc golf by adding excessively much distance to the discs or should i say rings? Take the center of the flight plate off and watch the disc soar. Aerobie ring distance record is 1200'. That would make many courses fairly boring. Drive putt, drrive, putt 18 times. As if the best in disc golf aren't ridiculously close to that already. Current generation drivers are in part 20 % longer than those made a few years ago.

Mayne i'm good at modding discs then because i got very real improvements out of discs that i modded that improved my scores a little. It is achievable.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

Oh, and I recognize that I am in a poor position to accuse anyone else of being too wordy.

My guess is that coming from a background in ball golf iacas sees where disc golf might progress to and hopes to hasten the journey. We do have things to learn from our ancient ancestor but I'm hoping an obsession with technical rules enforcement is not on the list. Our game need not be complex to be great.

Of course rules which are unenforceable should be modified or removed. But the reality is that the political process is based on compromise and entrenched attitudes change slowly, even in disc golf. In Michigan adultery is a felony (as well as many other common sexual practices). No one has been charged with this crime in decades yet no elected officials step up to propose the law be abolished. Instead everyone looks the other way. Perhaps this is ethically disingenuous but at least we are not imprisoning folks for common though admittedly flawed behavior.

iacas is like a pebble at the base of a mountain that hopes to climb to the pinnacle then turn that mountain into a valley. The resistance to strict enforcement of minor rules he feels on this message board is small compared to how it will be received in tournaments. It may be best to pick battles which matter.

Mark Ellis wrote:My guess is that coming from a background in ball golf iacas sees where disc golf might progress to and hopes to hasten the journey. We do have things to learn from our ancient ancestor but I'm hoping an obsession with technical rules enforcement is not on the list. Our game need not be complex to be great.

Thanks. FWIW, and I'm assuming you weren't implying this, but I don't feel that golf is "obsessed with technical rules enforcement." Golfers don't have to worry about their equipment because the manufacturers take on that responsibility (again, the $$$ involved matters), and all the golfers with whom I play - and in fact almost any serious golfers who are single digit handicap types - know the rules pretty well.

We almost NEVER have rules discussions come up amongst ourselves. The basic rules cover 99% of what you encounter in a rules situation and for the other 1% knowledge of the rules book can quickly lead to an answer in a minute.

I don't think golfers are "obsessed" with "rules enforcement." But we also don't have a situation like what seems to exist in disc golf where rules are largely disregarded.

Mark Ellis wrote:Of course rules which are unenforceable should be modified or removed. But the reality is that the political process is based on compromise and entrenched attitudes change slowly, even in disc golf.

Okay. This reads as you're "not opposed to change" and that is good, because until now most things have sounded a bit more like "everything's fine, stop worrying about it."

Mark Ellis wrote:iacas is like a pebble at the base of a mountain that hopes to climb to the pinnacle then turn that mountain into a valley. The resistance to strict enforcement of minor rules he feels on this message board is small compared to how it will be received in tournaments. It may be best to pick battles which matter.

Nah. If I'm a pebble I'm just sitting there. I'm not petitioning to join a rules committee or to have things actually changed. I'm just one guy, and I'm just trying to understand things right now.

I'll enforce the strict definition of the rules on myself, because that makes me feel good (or, rather, using a Wizard I know weighs 176g would make me feel slimy), but I'm not an idiot - I'm not going to show up with a scale or carefully inspect everyone else's discs. Cripes. I'll still have the golf mentality that people are honest and not doing anything to cheat or violate any rules. I might even see rampant foot faulting but will take the lead of others, which sounds like I should expect to be expected to look the other way. That's fine. I'm not going to ruffle feathers. In the end, it's just a game, and I derive satisfaction from playing well myself, and within the rules myself.

In high school I competed in a tournament. It was a team event but we played with three other players from three different schools. A kid in my group changed his scores on our foursome's scorecard after we'd all signed the card but before he'd turned it in. I was furious. It violated the very core of golf as being a game played with honor and integrity. I got over it quickly. I knew I beat him, he knew I beat him, and if he needed to cheat in some way, I felt sorry for him.

I'm more likely to shake my head if I see someone repeatedly marking their disc to gain six inches or stepping a foot beside their mini to throw around a tree or something. If they need to cheat to feel good about themselves, I feel sorry. All I can do is not knowingly violate the rules myself, and if I accidentally do, to accept the penalty with humility and try not to make the same mistake again.

I shouldn't have said iacas hates disc golf that was stupid. Disc golf is and should be a gentlemens game.The tech standards state that discs need to be round so they can't have edges that grab the chains. If you had a disc that had these protrusions it is either not PDGA approved or has been illegally altered per the rules. The tech standards say that discs can't have holes in them, the rules state that a disc that develops a hole in it is an illegal disc.The penalty for carrying a disc like this is steep, would it even be worth it?I may be in the minority here but I don't see rampant cheating in disc golf and I'm not looking the other way. I don't see people marking there lies multiple times, I don't see frankindiscs or factored discs. Casual disc golf much like casual golf is very, very different from its competitive form.

chainsmoker wrote:I shouldn't have said iacas hates disc golf that was stupid. Disc golf is and should be a gentlemens game.The tech standards state that discs need to be round so they can't have edges that grab the chains. If you had a disc that had these protrusions it is either not PDGA approved or has been illegally altered per the rules. The tech standards say that discs can't have holes in them, the rules state that a disc that develops a hole in it is an illegal disc.The penalty for carrying a disc like this is steep, would it even be worth it?

That's part of the point I'm trying to make. The rules also state that anything which alters the "original flight characteristics" of the disc is also illegal. So someone putting boiling water in to flatten the dome is making their disc illegal, technically.

The rules are out of sync with the commonly accepted standard.

chainsmoker wrote:I may be in the minority here but I don't see rampant cheating in disc golf and I'm not looking the other way.

Sometimes I goof and call something "cheating" when really I mean "in violation of the rules." When I'm thinking about it, I try to reserve "cheating" for deliberate acts that you know are against the rules. If a disc caroms off a tree right in front of me and hits me, that's a rules violation, but if I throw my mini two feet to the left of a tree when nobody's looking, that's out and out cheating.

So for the most part here I'm talking about violating the rules (which perhaps should be modified since nobody seems to care), not out and out cheating.

chainsmoker wrote:Casual disc golf much like casual golf is very, very different from its competitive form.

Complete agreement there... except that as it pertains to this thread, some "altered" discs are technically illegal, yet are still used in tournaments and nobody cares.

Which is fine. Again, so long as you can't make a disc go a ton farther than any other disc out there with some modification, I agree that it's no advantage over just finding some other disc to do what your modification does.

So change the rule. Eliminate the weird phrasing "alters the original flight characteristics" or something. Perhaps just say "a player may not make the disc non-conforming." Then elsewhere, add a section which allows for stickers on the underside of the flight plate.