It's occured to me over the course of the first third or so of Season 3 that the Dominion seem in some ways to be a compromise between the Borg and some more ordinary race than the Founders. The Founders are individuals, but they are also part of this 'great link' business, which seems hive-mindy in practice, though not to the exclusion of individuality. And there's something a little Borgesque about the concept of the Dominion - the conquered cultures, so to speak, adapt to service the Founders, no? Food for thought. Still plenty to go and I may be the victim of some season-length red herring or something, in which case, please excuse me.

It doesn't matter if they were one-shots or not, fact is he defeated super-enemies at all. If he can do that without complaint, there's nothing stopping Janeway from doing the same to the Borg (which didn't even happen anyways, it's mostly just Anti-VOY hyperbole).

Then again, the fact that audiences were upset that there was even a single alien species out there that could fight the Borg (the 8472 aliens) is more or less proof that there wasn't anything acceptable the show could've done with the Borg that anyone would've liked.

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I agree, defeating the Borg was never effortless.

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maybe not, but Trek went from one Borg Cube nearly conquering the Federation to one SHUTTLECRAFT penetrating a Borg base and defeating them. How the mighty had fallen.

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Um yeah, but not a frontal attack with guns blazing..it was not conventional, just like Geordi and Data's plan in I, Borg was not convential. There WAS NO conventional way to defeat them.

For political intrigue, I prefer the Dominion. I think they are the perfect enemy for Deep Space Nine. You start out talking about how a society recovers from oppression and then put the Federation in that situation--see how Earth and the Feds deal with this crisis and if their rhetoric at the beginning of the show matches the actions in that same moral dilemna. Having an enemy that is essentially a dark Bajor--oppressed people want to control as much of the galaxy as possible because "what you can control, can't hurt you" is just the beginning of the onion. They have no respect for humanoid life, mono-forms or solids, and to show that, they create solids to be soldiers and politicians to do their bidding while they are recluses.

But the Borg represent our society as well. It represents our technology and globalization run amok. How long is it before we have interfaces in our brains, carry our computers everywhere we go? Isn't that the next step after the Google glasses? So it could be on the horizon. I see the internet in it as well. We don't group-think or move it with our minds, but we do a lot of research and communication online. I'm doing one right now. And how easy would it be to cause a disruption to that network the way they did in BOBW? How much would we lose in our society where everything is paperless?

The Borg cannot be reasoned with--they are direct and to the point. You will do this or you will die. We are stronger than you. And individualism means nothing. There is no representative to sit down with and negotiate a peace. That is the reason that they are so dangerous--powerful and the collective mind cannot make a decision to respect your border. They are improving the galaxy. If some of this sounds like the rest of the world looking at American intervention, it should. I think it looks at the downside of trying to liberate people to capitalism and technology, especially with the barrel of a gun. It's at least a possible interpretation, not necessarily dead-on.

I think they are overused in Trek, and because of that, it's harder to see them as a menace, especially when we can now talk to the Borg Queen. So a little of the danger is missing now. They can enter into deals with the Federation (or at least Voyager). I think they are the perfect enemy, but that is what makes it difficult to keep them around and not ruin the Star Trek universe (or the Borg) by using them too much.

Anwar, just to pick up on your defence of Voyager... I think Scorpion and the Raven arc were just as good as Q-Who? and BOBW. Certainly better episodes than I, Borg or Descent. I have no problem with a superior enemy in Species*insert number*, there is bound to be something bigger than us all. The Borg did start to get boring when they gained "enemy of the week" status, and they became much less scary, having Tuvok and co purposefully assimilated was the pinacle of this. I think "Voyager Borg" would be much better thought of if they'd have done Scorpion, made Raven into a two-parter without the Borg-Queen nonsense from Dark Frontier, and left it at that.

There were complaints about the freaking Borg corpse in "Blood Fever". I don't know why, but folks were just ready to tear into the show for the most minor things.

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That and the other episode that had the escaped Borg (I'm not too familiar with Voyager, I think they were at the end of season 3) were good lead-ins to Scorpion IMO. Spooky mysteries, which is how the Borg should be.

I would never "tear into the show" but there seemed to be some excellent episodes (the surviving dinosaurs, the Borg episodes I mentioned, Timeless, Living Witness, Blink Of An Eye) surrounded by alot of crap.

Folks whine endlessly over how there was a single alien species more powerful than the Borg.

You just can't win. Seriously.

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I seem to recall having this exact same discussion with you about a year ago, where you claimed that people hated 8472 because they could defeat the Borg.

I don't think people hated 8472. I think when they were introduced, it was well done. Notwithstanding any future appearances (the San Francisco in the sky bit), their introduction merely showed us that it was possible to stand up to the Borg and win. Previous to that, we'd only seen the Borg in one-ship-at-a-time quantities (Q Who, BOBW, First Contact).

Of course, all of VOY's creations are considered worthless but the 8472 take the cake because they destroyed the fandom/hatedom's precious illusions about the Borg.

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What illusions? That the Borg were the most powerful race in the galaxy? I never said that, and you know it.

This discussion would run much more smoothly if you would actually respond to my posts, rather than ranting and spewing your nonsense about fans that dislike the Borg in Voyager.

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People didn't hate 8472 for having the ability to beat the Borg; they hated how the writer's at Voyager made it possible for little ol' Voyager to consistently beat the Borg all by themselves, when it was previously depicted that a single Borg cube had the ability to lay waste to 40+ Federation starships. I don't get why you have anything against 8472.

Frankly, if I can prove you wrong on what Screed said, I'd like to hear what Newtype and Temis' opinions are on the subject.

The VOY staff did that with the 8472 storyline. Response being "They invented a species that can defeat the Borg in straight up combat, without the use of a plot contrivance! They've RUINED the Borg by showing they aren't invincible!"

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AFAIK, the response was that the Borg THEMSELVES were enough of a threat that having to deal with them as an opponent had possibilities in itself. Introducing Species 8472 cheated the viewers out of the long-anticipated Borg confrontation, then conveniently resolved it by the liberal application of [tech], then bypassed it altogether the following episode by having Kes fling them safely out of Borg space.

It's not just "They made the Borg not-invincible!" It's more "They [the writers] created a race more powerful than the Borg just to create danger, then eliminated the other race, then eliminated the Borg, then went on their merry way."

That's like checking into the Bates motel, watching Norman Bates getting murdered by Jason, then watching Jason getting killed by Peter Pan, and then it's over. It's more than a letdown, you come away feeling like your eyeballs have been raped.

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I only found a handful of posts by Temis that reference 8472, but none of them talk about whether or not she hates 8472 because they could defeat the Borg. We'd have to PM her and ask her (or hope she shows up here) to get her honest opinion, but based on what I've seen it seems more like she's critical of Voyager's writers for missuing the characters. The closest I could find was this one:

My quatloos are on the Vorlons. No specific reason other than that I could take them seriously, something the stick-monsters of VOY never achieved.

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Species 8472 were certainly capable of much more than they achieved, but Voyager's writers punted on the whole topic because they were too scared or too lazy to write good stories with the two species that they had just introduced. The idea to introduce them itself isn't a bad one, and a master race from another dimension would have been an interesting concept for a movie or even an arc on the TV show. Instead, what did we get? Two appearances on Voyager only to never be referenced again. I don't think viewers hated the Borg or 8472, I think they hated the writers for wasting great opportunities for compelling television.

They hated how the writer's at Voyager made it possible for little ol' Voyager to consistently beat the Borg all by themselves, when it was previously depicted that a single Borg cube had the ability to lay waste to 40+ Federation starships. I don't get why you have anything against 8472.

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The Enterprise defeated the Borg every time they engaged them in straight battle (BOBW, Descent, FC) and no one complained. They're only one crew.

AFAIK, the response was that the Borg THEMSELVES were enough of a threat that having to deal with them as an opponent had possibilities in itself. Introducing Species 8472 cheated the viewers out of the long-anticipated Borg confrontation, then conveniently resolved it by the liberal application of [tech], then bypassed it altogether the following episode by having Kes fling them safely out of Borg space.

It's not just "They made the Borg not-invincible!" It's more "They [the writers] created a race more powerful than the Borg just to create danger, then eliminated the other race, then eliminated the Borg, then went on their merry way."

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Newtype is saying exactly what I've been saying: He can't stand that there was another species that could fight the Borg and we were actually shown them doing so. He wanted some big, stupid 100 part story instead of a smaller resolution (which is no different than how TNG did it!).

That's like checking into the Bates motel, watching Norman Bates getting murdered by Jason, then watching Jason getting killed by Peter Pan, and then it's over. It's more than a letdown, you come away feeling like your eyeballs have been raped.

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No, it's a reminder that you're actually quite small in the food chain and every once in a while you encounter two larger predators going at it.

My quatloos are on the Vorlons. No specific reason other than that I could take them seriously, something the stick-monsters of VOY never
achieved.

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And if the 8472 were from TNG or DS9, she wouldn't have said that.

Species 8472 were certainly capable of much more than they achieved, but Voyager's writers punted on the whole topic because they were too scared or too lazy to write good stories with the two species that they had just introduced.

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No, you can't tell a bigger story when the show is about a tiny scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up.

Now, if they were allowed to drop the "lone ship" thing and gather allies and flesh out the Delta Quadrant (which the premise forbade them from doing), then there's more wiggle room.

The idea to introduce them itself isn't a bad one, and a master race from another dimension would have been an interesting concept for a movie or even an arc on the TV show. Instead, what did we get? Two appearances on Voyager only to never be referenced again.

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And if the Borg were never seen again, after BOBW, no one would complain despite them only being in two stories. You just can't win.

I don't think viewers hated the Borg or 8472, I think they hated the writers for wasting great opportunities for compelling television.

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They gave them "Scorpion" and got squat in return. An audience that bratty and moronic doesn't deserve anything better.

It seemed to me to be the antithesis of the Borg as originally conceived. I mean, yes, the Borg are indeed a single consciousness, but the way I see it, it's that very fact that makes it meaningless to speak of them (it?) occasionally controlling a single body - it controls billions of single bodies, all the time. On that account, no one body being more or less important than any other one body is pretty much the whole bit, isn't it?

I'm prepared to forgive First Contact as an individual piece for having it, because it's very, very tough to make a watchable action flick without an individual villain. But for me it marked the point where the Borg just weren't to be taken seriously anymore.

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I completely agree with this. The whole "queen" bit removed all that made the borg interesting in the first place.