This is the thread for skinny people like me who want to bulk up. Or really, anyone who wants to be more buff. I suppose it's the counterpart to this thread.

So I've decided that I want to be stronger, both lower and upper body. I think I have lower somewhat taken care of because I recently joined my school's track team. I have very, very little upper body strength, though. I tried lifting once but kinda lost motivation, but now I have more of a motivation to become fit, especially as I'm doing a sport now.

So far, I weigh 107 pounds at 5'6". What should my target weight be if I start lifting (I don't want to have too much mass as that's bad for distance runners, but I want to at least look lean but muscular), and what are some good lifts for the upper body? I'm thinking 120 or 130 pounds for now, perhaps doing things like bench presses, pushups, and crunches.

Sorry about the questions, but I'm sure at least a few of you were or are in a similar situation and have some good tips from experience and such. Anyone else can post and ask about their experiences with bulking up as well

yay! I was just conversing with queenie that I felt quite feminine with all my concerns about weight loss in the 10 lbs or less thread. Doing those posts ina weightlifting thread will be a more masculine venture.

Back on topic, there are hundreds of ways to strength train, it's just a matter of finding what you feel comfortable with and can maintain motivation for. For me this involved 3 things I never thought I'd buy. An exercise ball, push-up bars, and dumbells. I thought the pushup bars were a stupid gimmick, but they've really worked for me. The exercise ball is great for mid-section exercises. The dumbells for curls/reverse curls. I keep all of the equipment setup in the living room and do one set of each exercise every night while watching tv. Even one set each night or every other night added a lot of definition to my body. After only one month friends noticed the difference.

1.) Don't do crunches, they do nasty compression things to your lower back. Do bridges (first google hit for abdominal bridges). Do them for your sides as well. Tense your ab muscles IN as you do these.

I had a friend in undergrad that tensed his abs OUT while doing crunches and bridges, and he looked 9 months pregnant after half a semester. Solid muscle, mind you, no fat...but still unflattering.

2.) I am so jealous of those of you who fight to gain weight, instead of fighting to lean out. Your solution is to simply, bluntly...eat more.

Eat more HEALTHY foods, and eat them when you're not hungry as snacks (glasses of milk, PBJ sandwiches, chicken breast or other meats, nuts are great for dense calories). Your body already keeps you lean, and you can just stop eating as often once you're at weight.

...then there's those of us who gain looking at a tic tac. grr.

3.) cut back on your long cardio workouts as much as possible. do SPRINTS rather than endurance on the track team, and do more weight-lifting with higher weights/lower reps.

This one is easy. Look at an Olympic sprinter vs an Olympic marathon runner. (Male pictures, as female ones might be borderline NSFW given what they run in. Also, to be fair, they're more on the extremes of the body types that training develops to illustrate the idea better).

Which would you rather look like? Yeah, the former. So interval training for your cardio is what you want. Of course, you have genetics guiding the range of what you can look like, but the training matters, too.

Pushup bars? great for your wrists, less strain on 'em. Especially good for those of us on the keyboard all day. No shame in them. Just be sure you have your hand and wrist straight out, don't let it sag like you had your palms on the floor, when you do pushups.

This is actually something I've been struggling with a bit myself. I would do exercises to try and add muscle, but nothing really seriously improved because of my diet.

I have realized that I simply had to eat more. And focus on eating more protein especially, and a little more cholesterol. Peanut butter and nuts have become very important in my diet lately, and I've been trying to add some cholesterol to my diet in the form of eggs and chicken.

Although it's not necessarily the same thing because I'm not skinny. I'm just trying to build strength and muscle for Judo because I feel pretttttty weak sometimes, and when I look at actual Judo athletes in my weight class I need to turn this fat into muscle stat if I want to have a chance. My only problem is finding time to get to the gym more than once a week.

Also, I'm not sure if my routine is working too well. I'm getting better at like the bench and such, but slowly. So... slowly. I often feel like I'm not making any progress at all. I'm probably just impatient, though.

Helllllloooo fellow ectomorphs!!! Or am I fifty years out of date? That's ok, I'm only in my 20s.

I'm 5'6 and 130 pounds, ex-weightlifter (no gym in the current town, at least not one worth giving my money to, ARRGGGH), and I think I can help.

You're really only looking at a handful of basic exercises to bulk up. In my opinion (not as educated as most, or even some on this board but still the best one I gots) the best things to do are
Squat
Deadlift
Bench press
Pull-ups (my judo sempai said this was the best exercise for the sport)
and Military press
In that order. Cool people also work dips into that regime, and bicep curls for impressing people (why the hell do people only look at biceps??). Don't forget that your triceps are bigger muscles and deserve lots of attention too.

Being too small (like I was) isn't really that big of a deal - we have our whole lives to fatten up, right? But if it is damaging your self-esteem, etc. then I say go whole hog. 3-5 days of training a week, split between the body parts, should make you feel stronger and more confident in only a few months. In my case it took two years of training to look, in my opinion, ripped. I continued training lightly for four years total, eventually hitting 90kg on the bench and 140kg on the deadlift.

As for protein powders and the like, I don't like them very much. Some people swear by them, I think it's just marketing - they give you (shit)loads of stinky gas and I don't think it's cool to train your body to eat too much anyway. I never used any supplements and saw plenty of results on both my body and wallet.

As for the actual training, in my experience the first few weeks are the toughest. I couldn't lift very much and would get very sore afterwards. However, after a short "wake-up" period I found the initial weights were too low and too easy to use. I think a big part of it is psychological. I was 18 when I started training, so that might have had an effect on the process as well.

This is actually something I've been struggling with a bit myself. I would do exercises to try and add muscle, but nothing really seriously improved because of my diet.

I have realized that I simply had to eat more. And focus on eating more protein especially, and a little more cholesterol. Peanut butter and nuts have become very important in my diet lately, and I've been trying to add some cholesterol to my diet in the form of eggs and chicken.

This is probably why I've always been able to put on muscle easily. My daily diet consists of two meals with chicken and some kind of peanut butter granola bars for snacks. If they made Reese's chicken, my life would be awesome.

1.) Don't do crunches, they do nasty compression things to your lower back. Do bridges (first google hit for abdominal bridges). Do them for your sides as well. Tense your ab muscles IN as you do these.

Oh, these look like a great alternative. I was beginning to show signs of those nasty compression things, but caught them in the nick of time. I've avoided crunches like the plague ever since.

Speaking of which: what kind of weight-lifting exercises (machine or otherwise) should I avoid, considering that the lower back also feels (and is compressed by) whatever weight you're lifting?

Deadlift
Bench press
Pull-ups (my judo sempai said this was the best exercise for the sport)
and Military press
In that order. Cool people also work dips into that regime, and bicep curls for impressing people (why the hell do people only look at biceps??). Don't forget that your triceps are bigger muscles and deserve lots of attention too

You're doing a basic six planes of motion workout, but only hitting four.

If you add rows, and squats, you'd be golden.

(The six planes of motion goes horizontal push/pull (row/pushups), vertical push/pull (pullup/military press) with the upper body, and push/pull with the lower body (squat/deadlift))

The idea is that you're balancing your muscle groups, for both aesthetic and practical reasons. Muscle imbalances can lead to chronic injury as well as unflattering physique. You should always work both planes of the three axis of motion during a workout cycle, but not necessarily in the same workout or even day.

Your Judo instructor recommended pull-ups for two reasons. One, you work your grip (to grab the opponents uniform) and two, pull them towards you (most every throw or grab in judo pulls the opponent towards/past/into you). But again, leads to muscle imbalance and shoulder instability if you don't work the opposite motion, and he should have mentioned this!

On protein powders: by far the best for stomach happiness is found at T-nation.com and they have basic whey as well as full casein/whey mixes. But it's not as cheap as the sawdust and sweepings found in walmart brands. But they are easy as hell on the stomach. Great way to add calories is a milk/protein powder snack shake between meals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zef

Oh, these look like a great alternative. I was beginning to show signs of those nasty compression things, but caught them in the nick of time. I've avoided crunches like the plague ever since.

Speaking of which: what kind of weight-lifting exercises (machine or otherwise) should I avoid, considering that the lower back also feels (and is compressed by) whatever weight you're lifting?

I have some bias, but I prefer free weights except when you are lifting heavy without a spotter (then use the Smith machine; always use a squat rack for squats). Given that:

I prefer free weights whenever possible for one reason: it works the support and stabilizing muscles involved with the lift. If you've only done smith-machine bench presses or squats, you'll be lucky to safely push 80% of that weight with free weights. Your smaller muscles won't be able to handle the load as the weight subtly shifts during the movement. These muscles are extremely important to prevent injuries.

Your lower back will be sore as hell if you're working it right, but that's very different from the compression of the discs a high-crunch/situp routine will give you. I did do situps, mind you, twice a week: 3 sets of 10, on an incline bench, with a 25 to 45 pound weight held at arms length over my head. Not enough reps to cause high compression...it's worse when people insist on doing sets of 100 cause they're so easy. That's not what made my back sore, as it barely worked the back.

You do need to work the lower back. I did over-head squats (start with just a broomstick held overhead, and work on form, for weeks before adding weight, and then use light dumbbells before moving up to the 45 pound barbell) for core work, fabulous full-body workout. I usually did hyperextensions as a focused movement, but the squat/deadlift work the back hard anyway.

WARNING: do your biggest exercises (squat/deadlift especially) before your smaller exercises (bicep curl/tricep extension/calf work). If you fatigue those smaller muscles too much beforehand, it can be dangerous, as you might drop the weight or have other muscles get strained/torn trying to make up for the weakness in the smaller muscle.

I usually did hyperextensions as a focused movement, but the squat/deadlift work the back hard anyway.

Hum. Hyperextensions were the first thing to go when I went over my routine with the gym trainers, after we caught the risk of compression. We also removed inclined bench crunches, but kept seatedcrunches (alternated between these two machines) and seated back extensions (both of these on weighted machines.) I'm weary of the latter, so I've stopped doing those on my own.

For the upper body, we removed seated military press (w/22.5lb dumbbells,) bent-over row (20lb,) and standing biceps curl (40lb cable) on the basis that my back is still carrying that weight. OTOH, I'm still doing barbell bench press and inclined press, pulldowns, supine chinups, seated and horizontal fly, rotary torso, and all my seated triceps/biceps sets and lower body exercises. We substituted most of the missing ones with other upper-body sets, but the only one I can say I don't miss at all is the bent-over row (which left my back sore like no other, and I keep blaming it, the hyperextensions, and the seated machine extensions for my near-injury.)

I don't know the name of the exercise, but there's one where you grab a pivoted wheel in both hands, extending yourself face-down on the floor, and you bring in the wheel to raise your torso. Is that good for the back/abdomen?

Great info from dwolfe there (even though I put squats first on my list...) I haven't gone over my weightraining studies for a good long while so I would take his advice over everything I said.

Tangent! The unfortunate thing for Paul le Fou and myself is that we both live in Japan, where protein powder is not only incredibly expensive, but also incredibly shitty. Wow, almost $40 US for 1kg of protein that needs THREE SCOOPS for 14.1 grams of protein??? If you compare that to the deals you can get with a GNC card, it's not even worth trying this shit. When I was training here I just tried to eat a lot and skipped the powder.

Great info from dwolfe there (even though I put squats first on my list...) I haven't gone over my weightraining studies for a good long while so I would take his advice over everything I said.

Tangent! The unfortunate thing for Paul le Fou and myself is that we both live in Japan, where protein powder is not only incredibly expensive, but also incredibly shitty. Wow, almost $40 US for 1kg of protein that needs THREE SCOOPS for 14.1 grams of protein??? If you compare that to the deals you can get with a GNC card, it's not even worth trying this shit. When I was training here I just tried to eat a lot and skipped the powder.

One thing I've taken to doing is heating up some (coffee-flavored) soy milk and dumping some kinako in there. It's less health-foody, but it's still pretty high in protein. I don't have it alone though, defnitely with a meal.

Hum. Hyperextensions were the first thing to go when I went over my routine with the gym trainers, after we caught the risk of compression. We also removed inclined bench crunches, but kept seatedcrunches (alternated between these two machines) and seated back extensions (both of these on weighted machines.) I'm weary of the latter, so I've stopped doing those on my own.

For the upper body, we removed seated military press (w/22.5lb dumbbells,) bent-over row (20lb,) and standing biceps curl (40lb cable) on the basis that my back is still carrying that weight. OTOH, I'm still doing barbell bench press and inclined press, pulldowns, supine chinups, seated and horizontal fly, rotary torso, and all my seated triceps/biceps sets and lower body exercises. We substituted most of the missing ones with other upper-body sets, but the only one I can say I don't miss at all is the bent-over row (which left my back sore like no other, and I keep blaming it, the hyperextensions, and the seated machine extensions for my near-injury.)

I don't know the name of the exercise, but there's one where you grab a pivoted wheel in both hands, extending yourself face-down on the floor, and you bring in the wheel to raise your torso. Is that good for the back/abdomen?

It's terrible for your back, way more stress than any of the exercises you quit. Not compressive, but sheering.

So basically you removed all back exercises because they made your back sore...*facepalm picard.jpg* I'd love to hear what qualifications the trainers have. I'm going to go on at length again, I apologize in advance, because what they're telling you is highly offensive to me on a personal level. I've spent a long time learning and researching this stuff, and actually testing it in my workouts.

Seriously, read that list they told you to do. You're working your chest heavily, and your lats pretty good. And took out back work. You're going to get internal rotation of the shoulders so bad...

Look down If your thumbs are pointing straight ahead, and palms are facing your body, congratulations, you don't have internal rotation of the shoulders. The more the palms face back, the worse the rotation.

Do some damn back work. Your trainers might be able to observe some serious physical imbalance or defect, but it's a shit workout plan for most people. What do you mean by you detected compression issues, vs just normal back soreness/stiffness from being worked hard?

There's also lower vs mid vs upper back work. You're doing none.

Your trainer should also decapitate you, as your back has to carry that load all day *sarcasm detectors going wild now*

Can you do seated rows? Rowing horizontally, not lifting, via cables? That's fine for mid-upper back depending on the angle, and fundamentally can't compress the back due to the angle of force.

22.5lb dumbbells for military press means you should do them again if your shoulders don't impinge. That's honestly not a lot of force.

Hypers are not for everyone, but for your trainer to say it contributes to compression? Seriously? ...Seriously? you're hanging down, and raising your back. THE FORCE IS DECOMPRESSING YOUR LOWER BACK.

Do some rotor cuff work if you do have internal shoulder rotation, but do it separate from your normal workout plan, as the weights are light and the exercises are more time consuming than exhausting.

Obviously, now that you've probably gotten some strain in your back, you need to do light weights for any back exercises. If your body tells you to stop mid-set, stop! But you need to rehab the back, not let it lie fallow, if there's no muscle tears. Drop the weights on back exercises by half, and see how your back feels after a week. Focus on your technique during that time, too. Are you using the proper muscles to power the movement?

EDIT: TKFlash, I'm sorry I missed your squats in the list, I messed up the copypasta and didn't check the original post you made.

So basically you removed all back exercises because they made your back sore...*facepalm picard.jpg* I'd love to hear what qualifications the trainers have. I'm going to go on at length again, I apologize in advance, because what they're telling you is highly offensive to me on a personal level.

Don't worry, I'd rather have someone knowledgeable call me an idiot than to have the gym trainers give me potentially harmful routines I'm beginning to doubt their qualifications, myself...

Look down If your thumbs are pointing straight ahead, and palms are facing your body, congratulations, you don't have internal rotation of the shoulders. The more the palms face back, the worse the rotation.

My palms face inwards, at a very slight backward angle (something like 5-10°, eyeballing it.) How bad is that?

Quote:

Do some damn back work. Your trainers might be able to observe some serious physical imbalance or defect, but it's a shit workout plan for most people. What do you mean by you detected compression issues, vs just normal back soreness/stiffness from being worked hard?

I had a sprain about seven weeks ago, exactly where the spine meets the hips. Couldn't lie down properly because of the pain. Went to a doctor, took some x-rays, and she pointed out the compression. Told me to show the x-rays to the gym physician so he could recommend a more suitable routine. I haven't taken any recent x-rays since, but I'm rather paranoid about overstressing my back (my father has had horrible back issues for as long as I can remember, and I fear them like you wouldn't believe.)

I'm fine right now, with full mobility and not even a hint of discomfort. But as they say, once bitten...

Quote:

Can you do seated rows? Rowing horizontally, not lifting, via cables? That's fine for mid-upper back depending on the angle, and fundamentally can't compress the back due to the angle of force.

Yep, I used to do seated cable all through last year, but I moved to a free weight machine about five months ago. I try my best not to move my torso so my arms do all the pulling --just like the trainers told me to. But I see everyone else using their arms and their back to pull, so again, I doubt the word of said trainers now...

Quote:

Hypers are not for everyone, but for your trainer to say it contributes to compression? Seriously? ...Seriously? you're hanging down, and raising your back. THE FORCE IS DECOMPRESSING YOUR LOWER BACK.

That's what I thought, too, and then they said something about "working against gravity" when pulling up, and compressing the spine when my muscles overcompensated. Keep in mind, I try to be diligent with my routine, but I'm not very experienced with how each type of exercise works. OTOH, I trust(ed?) the gym people to know all that, so... basically, I do what I'm told

From now on, of course, I'll pay a LOT more attention into WHAT I'm doing, and WHY I'm doing it, instead of just doing the routines. Thanks

Quote:

Obviously, now that you've probably gotten some strain in your back, you need to do light weights for any back exercises. If your body tells you to stop mid-set, stop!

How can I learn to recognize this from simple exhaustion or soreness?

Quote:

But you need to rehab the back, not let it lie fallow, if there's no muscle tears. Drop the weights on back exercises by half, and see how your back feels after a week. Focus on your technique during that time, too. Are you using the proper muscles to power the movement?

Thanks for the advice, again Right now, my #1 concern is that, if I was already compressing my lower back, that I might actually do something that finishes the job. I'm scheduled for a routine change and a physician test next Thursday, and I'm bringing in my x-rays. But now I wonder if he'll lead me in the right direction...

You should probably make sure you're absolutely doing it right. I mean, yeah, you need to be sure you have proper form with any exercise, but squats present a lot of potential injuries.

At the same time, the squat is the bench press of the lower body. Don't neglect it from fear.

Honestly, using much lower weights than you feel you can handle for a couple weeks (hell, do them at home if you feel embarassed) is an excellent idea. Squats in particular depend on ankle flexibility, which is shocking on the face of it.

Your knees should not travel forward past your toes, and your upper body should be tensed (core muscles/abs/lower back all contracted) and as straight as possible. Your knees should be stable, not quivering and bending outward from the weight on your back.

As a result, you should train squats with lower weights (empty bar or less) to practice the technique.

Do not wear shoes with very thick, padded soles while squatting (running shoes). Bare feet or Chuck Taylors are better. Think about pushing the outer edges and HEEL of your foot into the ground while squatting, just like you're supposed to pull a bar apart for stability when benching.

...I can quit talking so much and taking over this thread, guys...sorry...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zef

Don't worry, I'd rather have someone knowledgeable call me an idiot than to have the gym trainers give me potentially harmful routines I'm beginning to doubt their qualifications, myself...

My palms face inwards, at a very slight backward angle (something like 5-10°, eyeballing it.) How bad is that?

I had a sprain about seven weeks ago, exactly where the spine meets the hips. Couldn't lie down properly because of the pain. Went to a doctor, took some x-rays, and she pointed out the compression. Told me to show the x-rays to the gym physician so he could recommend a more suitable routine. I haven't taken any recent x-rays since, but I'm rather paranoid about overstressing my back (my father has had horrible back issues for as long as I can remember, and I fear them like you wouldn't believe.)

I'm fine right now, with full mobility and not even a hint of discomfort. But as they say, once bitten...

Yep, I used to do seated cable all through last year, but I moved to a free weight machine about five months ago. I try my best not to move my torso so my arms do all the pulling --just like the trainers told me to. But I see everyone else using their arms and their back to pull, so again, I doubt the word of said trainers now...

That's what I thought, too, and then they said something about "working against gravity" when pulling up, and compressing the spine when my muscles overcompensated. Keep in mind, I try to be diligent with my routine, but I'm not very experienced with how each type of exercise works. OTOH, I trust(ed?) the gym people to know all that, so... basically, I do what I'm told

From now on, of course, I'll pay a LOT more attention into WHAT I'm doing, and WHY I'm doing it, instead of just doing the routines. Thanks

How can I learn to recognize this from simple exhaustion or soreness?

Thanks for the advice, again Right now, my #1 concern is that, if I was already compressing my lower back, that I might actually do something that finishes the job. I'm scheduled for a routine change and a physician test next Thursday, and I'm bringing in my x-rays. But now I wonder if he'll lead me in the right direction...

You are not an Idiot, Zef!!! An open mind and seeking information is never something to be ashamed of. I might be wrong, as I don't have you here to work with.

Your shoulder rotation is pretty decent, honestly. If your palms were 30-45 degrees facing the rear, I'd have worried, but you're fine. It's rare to get fully neutral even when muscles are balanced. But shoulder cuff work for stability is useful if you use a keyboard a lot, honestly. Prevents headaches from tension in the neck/shoulder.

My dad has bad joints, including the back, and bad arthritis, which is why I've been learning how to not have a knee replacement before 50 (as an example; my brother is about my age and has really bad joints, too, unlike me; i attribute it to proper workouts). But family history means you need to pay more attention to how you work your back in the future, not ignore it.

That you're pain free right now, and it's been 7 weeks, says you should slowly introduce new exercises. But start them with trivial weights, and focus on technique. Very low weights, focus on using the right muscles, and good form.

Free weight machine is an oxymoron that makes me cry. Free Weights are dumbbells, barbells, or resistance bands. Everything else is fundamentally a machine, Zef. You're using pullys True free weights work muscles important for balance and stability, but machines let you push the bigger muscles harder than you could otherwise.

Your arms do almost NONE of the pulling in seated rows *picardfacepalm.jpg*

You're seated rowing to work your back, jesus christ trainer dudes. yes, your arms bend during the motion, but focus on your BACK doing the work. If your arms are sore or tire out first, you need to drop the weight and focus on which muscles work.

The best analogy is if you have access to a rowing machine at the gym. If you used your arms for finishing the rowing motion you'd have much less power than if you use your torso and back. The finishing motion of rowing is pure back muscle, just like the beginning is pure legs.

Seeing people MOVE their torsos mean they're cheating and using their lower back to row...the row is an upper/mid back move. They want to move as much weight as possible, not good form. 99% of people I see in the gym have terrible form!!!

Muscle soreness from actual injury...if it hurts during a rep, stop immediately. With your history, don't push to exhaustion during a set. If it hurts the days afterwords, it's usually muscle soreness. When I switched to a squat-heavy routine, I went to a doctor over lower back pain/soreness, and he just said to rest it a couple weeks, and he was right.

Again, don't push your weights too high. Focus for weeks on form.

The ideal weight-lifting workout is one where you leave invigorated and ready to take on the world, not one where you are wiped out and crawling.

dwolfe, did you read a lot of Louie Simmons when you were researching the squat?

zef, you have compression on a disc? Bulging/herniation? Weight on a disc injury is nothing to fuck around with.

Westside Barbell Louis Simmons? He's one guy I've read, yeah.

I've been waiting a more accurate description of what Zef did to his back. It could as easily be a muscle sprain or pull (which take forever to feel better) as a disc injury, and I assumed he'd use those words if it were spinal versus just lower back by now. Obviously I was assuming things, which is why it's good to have the AV around here.

If it's a disc injury, it's kinda important to figure out what might have caused it, or aggravated it if it was present before working out. I've been lucky and never had a disc injury so far, so I don't have any experience getting over it.

I've been waiting a more accurate description of what Zef did to his back. It could as easily be a muscle sprain or pull (which take forever to feel better) as a disc injury, and I assumed he'd use those words if it were spinal versus just lower back by now. Obviously I was assuming things, which is why it's good to have the AV around here.

If it's a disc injury, it's kinda important to figure out what might have caused it, or aggravated it if it was present before working out. I've been lucky and never had a disc injury so far, so I don't have any experience getting over it.

It wasn't a muscle sprain, and there IS compression in between the last two vertebrae. I'm not very good at describing it, but if it can help, I can try snapping a picture of the x-rays and translate the lab interpretation. In any case, the doctor said it was the type of injury that is caused over a long period of time --which might be consistent with the two years I've been attending this gym, and the four I've been performing sit-ups and crunches :/

Heyyy, I'm slipping dangerously back into 1 Pombar territory, so I was thinking of starting this thread also. Although I'm kinda satisfied with just fooling around at the gym as I was doing last semester, so I guess since my concerns are more dietary, I might've made it in the food forum. Ho hummidy.