Work in any country for people from overseas is motivated by self gain and nothing else. Altruism, as you imply, has nothing to do with it. See Germany/Turks etc, USA/World, and so on. We ourselves (sinn fein mas fearr leat) still employ many East Europeans etc in this global economy.

And If you want to talk about "cheap jibes" I recommend that you look at the history of the British Press about Ireland. presumably you find that "reprehensible" also.

For the record it is my belief that Britain should leave the EU and let those of us committed to the future and not the past get on with it. It won't happen of course for the usual reason - money. Mais quelle dommage !

The "British" ie the English, are sulking in the wings since they are not centre stage in the EU, like Germany. A combination of their traditional xenophobia and their global financial institutions (now under severe pressure)are the core reasons for their hostility. The insecurity of financial threat may be understandable and acceptable, but the xenophobia most certainly is not.

Instead of acting like an old man who gracefully accepts that the old days are gone for ever(which is to be admired) the English are snarling and snapping about how things were so much better in his day.

Faults, growing pains and all, the EU is a brave effort by Europeans to pull together rather than decimate each other. So come on England - show us some of the "maturity" you believe you have, and stop living in the past. Pigs might fly.

The "British" ie the English, are sulking in the wings since they are not centre stage in the EU, like Germany. A combination of their traditional xenophobia and their global financial institutions, now under severe threat are the core reasons for their hostility. The insecurity of financial threat may be acceptable, but the xenophobia most certainly is not.

Instead of acting like an aged sportsman who gracefully accepts that the old days are gone for ever(which is to be admired) the English are sitting in a wheelchair snarling and snapping about how things were so much better in his day.

Faults and all the EU is a brave effort by Europeans to pull together rather than decimate each other. So come on England - show us some of the "maturity" you believe you have, and stop living in the past. Pigs might fly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems similar to the games of strategy used in the Paris Peace Conference, except it is economic warfare that has been waged this time and the parties have been turned on their heads so that it was Germany that was acting in a responsible manner this round.

The problem at hand is whether or not Germany et al are willing to make some sacrifices for those who had been feckless and spendthrift (not helping in the matter may result in economic losses that may out-weight the costs of helping).

The other, more complex problems are the optics and signals sent to the general population . How do you explain to the people of the respective countries (winners and losers) why such a bargain is in their best interests? Secondly, how will the distribution be set as to who pays, how much and why? How can it be made that those who need to be punished is accomplished without bringing down the house of cards? These will be the ties that bind.

Hopefully, this will not be a game of brinkmanship as the results may be disastrous.

I was pro EU and (reluctantly tho) also accepting the euro, given that everyone does his homework . . . meaning perform clean bookkeeping, honest taxation and use the cash-transfers from Brussels on long-term projects to get competitive in this global market; after all the biggest (necessary) imports to any eurozone country don’t come from Germany or “the North”, but from gas and oil exporting countries (in the case of Greece from Saudi Arabia and Russia).

Nobody has to buy a Toyota or Mercedes, but all Europeans need to import huge amounts of the natural resources . . . and they have at least the duty to become economically capable of paying for them as well as for all other consumed goods . . . or don’t consume!

Elected criminal politicians, like those political mafia clans in Greece, saw in “European solidarity” a one way street to cheat, deceive and pick the pockets of their EU “partners”. Even today Greece has a much lower tax-rate compared to its declared GDP than any of the so called donor countries.

The untaxed shadow-economy in Greece is still the EU largest and million-euro villas around Athens and on Greek islands are still spared of appropriate property taxes by a corrupt tax-system (according to a recent TV report).

Yes, these devious state-mafia machinations shown by Greece’s criminal elites are bloodsucking the EU donors and are destroying the good will of all good European people! It is this “criminal” fiscal and accounting attitude that destroys unity among Europeans and undermines the willingness of the donor countries to show more solidarity.

You, pename, are a good example for an advocate of what destroys the eurozone.

My error; I thought you were talking about some formal program within the EU. Yes, I agree that the dynamic is as you say, except that I see two alternate possible outcomes: the death of the Euro, or simply allowing profligate members to face ruinous bond rates.

As Charlemagne rightly says, political integration among countries inside the Eurozone will gather momentum. There will be some sort of “economic governance”. The decision-making group for that governance will include the 17 members of the Eurozone, thus making the group the main forum for EU politics. So, as the non-Eurozone members role inside the EU will diminish, for the UK and other countries it won't make sense to fund the EU budget without having much to say.
Stewart Fleming called this the "Swissification" of the UK. It's not about forcing certain members out of the EU, but about adjusting to reality.

I'm trying to figure out if JohannKarl knows something I don't, or if he's just making grand statements that signify nothing.

"If the UK government decides to stay out of the Eurozone (which is certain), it will also face the decision of leaving the EU altogether (along with Sweden, Denmark and a few countries in Eastern Europe). The Eurozone is not a choice, but integral part of the EU."

Does this have any basis in reality? Is there any concrete action to kick non-Euro members out of the EU?

"All this goes far beyond what EU officials thought possible a year ago. Among other things, it will make Eurosceptic countries, notably Britain, far less likely ever to join the single currency."

If the UK government decides to stay out of the Eurozone (which is certain), it will also face the decision of leaving the EU altogether (along with Sweden, Denmark and a few countries in Eastern Europe). The Eurozone is not a choice, but integral part of the EU.
Leaving the EU will also end Britains schizophrenic relationship with the Union.

@ Rene Kim
Things are not that easy. Your vision of south countries spending money and nothern countries saving it is some short of nothern ideollogy. I don´t critizice nothern countries, but I don´t like people with easy oneway thinking. If Northern BANKS gave loans for construction in the south is because they thought they were going to do big bussiness. They gave loans for pensionist to buy houses in the south, overvalued of course. Think that for southerners, with quite smaller wages than northeners, this is a fake. So, if we are to be fair, we should leave Banks default on theirselves, no matter if they are from southern or northern countries. Probably, that would be the only way for people with a black and white view to realize of the complexity of things.

There was an article in a newspaper recently that a Greek train driver earns ~5.000€ net per month. While his German colleague gets about half of this. And this was only one of many examples of incredible luxury in Greek life.

As long as even only one such case of profligacy exists there is absolutely no reason to waste even more northern european taxpayers money. After all, without a trace of doubt, Greek (and most likely Ireland) can and will never pay back all its debt. All contradicting speeches by politicians are hollow lies.

A restructuring plus some hair-cut is inevitable. The sooner, the cheaper for the taxpayers - it will become expensive enough to then 'rescue' again the own banks, pension funds and insurers in Germany, France, Austria...

Of course, in parallel to this, there must be further harsh austerity measures in the profligate countries. Like cutting Greek train drivers salary to realistic levels. And there must be immediately an end to the decade long cuts in available income in Germany (imposed by a huge coalition of all political parties, the large workers unions and the bussines lobbyists) and other northern european countries. This is inevitable to slowly close the competitiveness gap.

Southern countries are not "villaining" Germany! Never! We're just saying they are loan sharks... IT is well known and accepted by all officials in the EU that Germany benefited the most from the Euro and indebted the countries of the South for a simple reason: Germans want to live their retirement after their dull life with the same dullness, for which they need money. In turn, they need high yield retirement plans. The way to achieve this is simple: sell expensive loans to the rest of the EU, have them buy our stuff and, in effect, put the work of their children on mortgage. This way, the gain is double: we give them expensive money, they give it back to us and they owe as even more! Great trick!

Is the north getting anti-european? So much for the EU. The whole south quit its competitiveness for Germany to become the largest exporter. It also contributed funds and labour at all levels to do that. It is time Germany recognises the simple fact that the German miracle is not German at all. And they have been the largest beneficiaries of agri subsidies and structural funds. And their companies the largest source of corruption in Europe.

I am basically pro-EU for the main reason that without it, Europe would never be free of wars between the "gifted" horses, and as is well known, when the elephants fight, the ants die. To have an EU that's working nicely, there is only one way, understanding, tolerance and cooperation. Some people thought the EU is a country club with some nice indigenous southern people to amuse us. This is not the case.

And yes, it is true there is an anti-EU sentiment in Northern countries, along with the old rhetoric and the rise of nationalism. They should take care of that because we have seen time and again where this leads.

It is time the north accepts and appreciates the south. That said, it should also help it by sharing its excellent attributes of sane governance and try to adopt the south's more humane way of organising the society. But the north has to accept the south as equal.

It is interesting how northern countries, especially Germany, are being villained in the press in peripheral countries. They have been paying for the transfer of wealth and are now accused of being uneuropean. It is worse than looking a gifted horse in the mouth.

Now the argument is taken further in that they have been making money on the money the lent. As if the borrowers can not be held accountable. The reality is that tax payers in northern countries are getting tired and (dangerously) anti-european. By expecting continuing transfers (agri subsidies, structural funds and now bail out money or eurobonds) we are undercutting the political fibre of the European Union.

hikeandski wrote:
"Germans will not pay for the stupidity and greed of Greeks, Irish, Portugese, Spanish and Italian politicians and banks."

I'm trying to guess where you're from with such a high moral ground!!
Hopefully not from where money is printed at will and your debt high up there.

Germany is NOT paying. They are lending and making a kill all along. As Portuguese we can't devalue or print money which is besides the point because it´s all euros.

Also don't forget Germany's debt is only about 6% lower than Portugal's but greater than Spanish...so I'm confused about your indignation about Germans 'paying' for us!

Don't forget also that TOTAL debt (sovereign e private)is similarly low as Germans as for most these countries (Italian lower and same as Spanish and portuguese bit higher). Ireland debt is mainly to do with private banks and tax payer could pass the risk to banks including German's and British.

Please stop patronising us and get a life - come and get some sun and relax a bit my man and we'll do all the hard work serving you -hopefully you don't have a moustache and socks!

Darn! This is not the usual Charlemagne right? This is an imposter! What a silly article, old news, no target, no conclusion, no suggestions, just kissing the butt of a system that guarantees collapse...

... and full of ingenius declarations such as "North is north and south is south". Amazing stuff from the human compass. Obviously north and south are different silly! North is in a mission from god to make money and south is having fun! Wish the north moves a bit to the south sometime soon...

The EU is essentially already a transfer union with Northern tax payers subsidising Southern farmers and constructers. A eurobond will imply a further transfer of funds. Understandably voters in Northern Europe do not feel much for that. What is coming in return for the transfers? With IMF solutions the price is a a de-facto reduction of sovereignty for the states that receive its help. Rather than eurobond transfers, a larger bail out fund with conditions of reduced (financial) sovereignty for the states that use it would at least make it a mutual transfer: money in one direction, sovereignty the other (just like in companies, receiving money from investors implies giving them a say.

Alternatively, the EU could issue eurobonds, but at the condition that the nonsense of farm subsidies and unaccountable structural funds end. The countries that received most of them are in the greatest trouble now.

Eurobonds is an extremely bad idea. Its like creating a second dollar, a stinky bad currency, backed only by debt. Hiding member states debt, under a layer of federal debt, in practice doubling the debt alltogether, like in the US.

No thanks Eurobond, yes thanks austerity and punishment for the ones that breach the Maastrich criterias. Yes to getting the Greek out of the Euro, no thanks to equivilant bad economies as Greek(which would be Bulgaria and Romania only).