So I'm watching the NFR every night (which runs through this coming Saturday). I generally skip watching the "tie down" roping (The way they've renamed calf roping so it doesn't SOUND as bad).* Anyway, I enjoy the rough stock events, but I was just cracking up at some of the broncs. One came out and did "canter zig zags" at the buck - change of lead with every change of direction. Another did " one and two tempi changes at the buck" on a circle, and one bucked a pirouette. Of course, easier to do with an 8 second limit, right? While some of the broncs are obvious draft crosses, there were some more refined animals, and it was like all of them were saying, "Take that, dressage horses!! Look at what I can do!" "I'm "

*No, I'm not a vegetarian, but I've visited friends with working ranches, and they don't rope the calves at speed as is done in competition. They're generally in a corral, and they drop a loop on them and gradually slow them down, then get off and tie down. Heck, I was helping a friend when we visited her parents ranch, and we were ON FOOT in the pen, chasing the calves into a chute and into the stocks for tagging and, um, castrating. I got stomped on a couple of times.

Good friends of mine (and also neighbors) are in the rodeo stock business. Particularly horses. Every now and again they get loose and end up in my hay fields. When the neighbors come to round them up, I am in awe of the free flowing movement that would put the Valegro's and Totilas' to shame lol!

They are wearing tight bucking straps to make them buck. It is very cruel. You wouldn't allow someone to tighten a strap around your horse where there are no ribs to protect him. Yet you are okay with these horses being tortured to entertain the ignorant. Shameful.

No Tsavo, the strap isn't that tight, and it's padded. The horses would buck anyway. They just wouldn't kick out as high. It's like a woman wanting to get out of a snug girdle. And while it isn't true that the strap is painful (please do remember that there are humane society officers at every RECOGNIZED rodeo*), consider this: The alternative for many of these horses would be slaughter. Assuming the strap was painful (which it is not), if you asked the horse, "Would you rather be in minor pain for 8 seconds a few times a week, or would you rather be dog food/fertilizer?" what do you think the horse's answer would be. Have you even observed that 95% of the horses buck with their ears forward? Not the look of a horse in pain.

*What happens at an unrecognized rodeo, I do not know. There may well be abuses. But not at PRCA recognized rodeos.

AGAIN, the strap does not cause PAIN, it is just vaguely uncomfortable like a girdle and they are padded with sheepskin. Do you really think they would be "torturing" a horse that is worth $100,000? (some of them). One of the Calgary Stampede STALLIONS can be handled by a child, he just can't be ridden.. Do you think a "tortured" horse would act that way? I can only assume you buy all the PETA nonsense. PETA would consider you even RIDING your horse to be torture. Please educate yourself about rodeo rough stock. If you want to complain about calf roping - I'm right there with you. But the rough stock events and steer wresting - well, anybody who wants to jump off a horse going 25-30 mph and wrestle with a steer that outweighs him by x3 or more - he can go ahead. And I'm sorry, I do NOT think a horse is better off DEAD than "suffering" from a bucking strap for 8 seconds a few times a week. The rest of the time, the horses are eating, and living with their herd. I would be more exercised by the suffering that horses experience with "crank and spank-type" dressage trainers than what rough stock horses go through.

Also, if you really watched, you'd notice that many of the horses stop bucking the moment the rider is off, whether or not the bucking strap is still on them. Some even stop when they hear the 8 second whistle. Others keep bucking even after the strap is removed.

These horses are better looked after than some horses I have met at many boarding barns and horse shows I have attended. The flank strap is padded. It is worn for 12-16 seconds. There is more care taken into the placement of this strap than some owners care about saddle fit. Uncomfortable strap for 16 seconds vs improper saddle fit for a 45 minute ride. A whole rodeo season for one horse is less than 12 minutes total for some of these horses. One dressage test performance, with warm up, is longer than this.

I cannot speak for all stock contractors, but the ones that I do know have their horses best interests in mind. 24-7 turnout, regular feed, dewormed, vaccinated and coggins tested on a regular schedule because they need that documentation for cross border travel/event requirements.

My friend has a couple of retired mares that will die on their property - they get a box stall on cold nights because their owners feel that these horses deserve to be comfortable in their old age. It's the least they could do for them since they relied on them to help feed their families.

I am not ashamed to watch the saddle bronc and bareback horses at a rodeo. If that makes me shameful in your eyes, then so be it.

I think it is significant that I have many times watched retirement ceremonies at rodeos for broncs that are 25, 28 and in one case 31 years old. Abused horses don't live long, healthy lives like that.

I don't think we can know whether bucking straps cause pain, or how much pain they cause if they do cause pain. They're obviously irritating/annoying/uncomfortable because so many of the horses won't buck without them, but how aversive we can't know.

We also can't know whether a horse would choose to be a rodeo bronc or a dressage horse if he knew what he was getting into and had the choice. IMO, a case could be made for either.

Yes, they are a bit uncomfortable, not painful. For 8 seconds. 8 SECONDS. For horses that, for the most part, would end up at meat auctions if it were not for their considerable value as rodeo stock. Now, granted, there are some contractors who raise bucking horses - the Calgary Stampede for one; an organization that owns(ed) - I don't know if he's still alive - a bucking stallion (named Grated Coconut) that is gentle to handle, but just can't be ridden. So those are horses that have not been "spoiled" and only can find a home as rodeo stock. But many, many broncs would be dead if they didn't have the value they have as rodeo stock. It's a pretty easy life, other than, I suppose, a lot of travel. But most don't travel that far, except, perhaps the very best - who may have to make that long trip to Vegas once a year for the NFR. I note when watching the PBR that if it's an event in the western part of the country, you will get a lot of bulls from Julio Moreno, who is based in California. But if the event is on the east coast, it will be different contractors and rarely Moreno, so there even are limits on how much they ship the stock. Objectively, can you tell if it "hurts?" As I said, some horses keep bucking the moment it comes off, some keep bucking even after it's removed, others stop bucking the minute the rider is off, whether or not the strap remains, some quit the moment they year the 8 second whistle (union horses?) whether or not the strap is unfastened. If it were truly painful, presumably they would not stop until it was removed.

Again, the vast majority of rodeo broncs would buck whether or not the strap was used, but it would probably be in a circle, head down, without the high kick. They wouldn't instantly become nice little saddle horses just because there was no bucking strap.

If a horse had a choice ....I think a lot would choose the easy life of a bronc over that of a dressage horse, LOL!!! I had a horse that LOVED jumping. If you turned him out in an arena with jumps, he'd canter around jumping them on his own. He HATED dressage - but he could do canter pirouettes. During the 11 years I owned him, I struggled with the dressage phase of eventing, but he rarely had a fault on cross-country or in stadium. When I retired him, I gave him to a friend and she trail rode him until he was in his late 20s. He was innately lazy and probably would have LOVED being a bronc - you merely had to touch him a little too far back when asking for a flying change or the like, and he would give out a buck. 8 seconds, maybe a total of 12-20 minutes a year - he would have LOVED that. (Of course, he was a contrary Appaloosa. A more sensitive "blood" horse - well, who knows. There have been some well bred saddle horses that ended up as rodeo broncs.)

No, you not writing a penetrating glimpse into the obvious. You are showing that you are ignorant about how rodeo stock is handled. Please do advise the humane society that they are falling down on the job.

No, bull fighting and dog fighting are not okay. They are brutal. The animals almost always die (not in Portugal, but they are still abused). A horse that is killed in a rodeo ACCIDENT happens no more often, and probably a lot less, than in high-level eventing (and I say that as a former eventer who very much enjoyed eventing, but backed away when the courses got more technical, not because my horse couldn't do it, but because I doubted MY abilities) or on the race track. You've already said you'd rather see a horse dead than in a rodeo, so we know where you stand.

I will add one caveat. Not all rodeos are PRCA approved, ergo, I will stand by my statements with regard to THOSE PRCA rodeos, but there are, sadly, many rodeos that are NOT PRCA approved, or are approved by other organizations. What their standards are, and how they handle their stock, may be different, and if there is abuse, I most definitely do not approve. The PRCA works with the humane society with regard to the welfare of their stock. But the flank strap, by itself, sheepskin padded and worn for 8 seconds - No, I can't get my panties in a twist when it provides a job for horses that might otherwise be slaughtered.

Once my friends get back from Vegas.. *cough*where they sold the high selling bucking horse this year before the rodeo started*cough*.. I'm going to ask about flanks straps.

I will stand by my belief that a flank strap is tightened to the point that it prevents slippage. Not to a point to create writhing in pain. If my friends tell me different, I will openly admit being wrong.

Maybe I'm too cowgirl for this forum, some days I think I am way to redneck for dressage.... but here is a little food for thought.

When the chute opens at a rodeo.... it's the horse that gets to decide how to move... not the rider.

Dressage does not have as its 'goal' to cause pain. Nevertheless, dressage training, any training, can be extraordinarily painful for the horse, and some of the worlds most elite dressage riders are incredibly cruel. Sjef and Patrick and Anky come to mind.

PRCA Rodeo does not have as its 'goal' to cause the horse pain. Bucking straps are not painful IME, they are to my mind more of a cue to the horse, its time to do your job now.

Can rodeo be cruel? Yes. But my God, if I were a horse I would rather be a bronc than a WP horse or a badly ridden dressage horse any day.

I went to Cal Poly SLO, where they give scholarships for rodeo. My first husband was a PRCA calf roper and steer wrestler, now team roping who has competed at NFR. I was around a lot of rodeos for many years.

I see more horses in pain at dressage competitions than I ever did at a rodeo, and that includes the bucking stock.

Do you have any idea how high a quality of life bucking stock have, and how much they are valued? Many riding horses go through MUCH MUCH worse on a regular basis.

Many broncs 'work' a handful of times per year for 8 seconds at a time. That's LESS THAN ONE MINUTE per year. Many riding horses are ridden for 45 mins, 5 days/week thats close to TWO HUNDRED hours a year. I'd argue that girths, and everything else we put on them causes a level of discomfort as well, and even if the strap is *slightly* worse the numbers speak for themselves.

Go and visit a stock contractor, then visit a school of worn out lesson horses who are lucky to have any turnout at all and are often buted so they can pack lesson kids around for 2-3 hours/day, then report back with which is a better equine lifestyle.

The bucking straps are usually covered with wool nowadays, but it is (somewhat) tight for about 10 seconds, and the usually bucking life of a bronc (before he goes to be a working horse on a ranch) is about a season.

Abby Kogler wrote:I see more horses in pain at dressage competitions than I ever did at a rodeo, and that includes the bucking stock.

I don't have any strong opinions about which is worse for the horses, but I tend to think that dressage horses suffer more because the aversives they experience are so prolonged.

I doubt that rodeo horses were included in the statistics, but dressage horses beat out jumpers and racehorses and eventers when it came to the amount of damage they suffer, which leads me to believe that dressage horses may actually suffer more abuse than rodeo broncs, too. Not that it's possible to know because there are so many factors involved, but that's my guess.

Intention is everything. This is about morality and ethics. Lots of people are failing.

Comparisons to other disciplines are obviously diversionary. It is logically possible to talk about bucking straps and what they do without bringing in any other discipline. I think you can prove this to yourself... try it. The fact that comparisons are made to avoid the issue is a response in itself.

Comparisons to dressage are not relevant because the intent is not to inflict pain/discomfort. The fact that there are bad players even at the top doing this does not negate all the people who are doing it correctly. The sport does not include as a requirement pain and discomfort as does bucking.

Spain says they can never give up bullfighting because it is their culture. You people are saying the same thing about bucking. Cultures are not sacrosanct and people can become enlightended. People inflicting pain/discomfort on any animal purely for entertainment is a piece of culture that needs to disappear yesterday. We are better than that.

Speaking of comparisons, there is no comparison - yet you are making one - between bullfighting and broncs. I'm still waiting for you to address why being DEAD is better than being uncomfortable for 8 seconds, for perhaps a total of 12 minutes a year; why most broncs buck energetically with their ears forward and do not look at all distressed; why many keep bucking after the strap is removed, yet some stop the moment the cowboy is off, etc. I'm reminded of the comedienne who puts her fingers in her ears and goes "nyah,nyah,nyah,nyah" endlessly because she does not want to hear/address anything contrary to what she has decided is the truth.

Tsavo wrote:Intention is everything. This is about morality and ethics. Lots of people are failing.

Comparisons to other disciplines are obviously diversionary. It is logically possible to talk about bucking straps and what they do without bringing in any other discipline. I think you can prove this to yourself... try it. The fact that comparisons are made to avoid the issue is a response in itself.

Comparisons to dressage are not relevant because the intent is not to inflict pain/discomfort. The fact that there are bad players even at the top doing this does not negate all the people who are doing it correctly. The sport does not include as a requirement pain and discomfort as does bucking.

Spain says they can never give up bullfighting because it is their culture. You people are saying the same thing about bucking. Cultures are not sacrosanct and people can become enlightended. People inflicting pain/discomfort on any animal purely for entertainment is a piece of culture that needs to disappear yesterday. We are better than that.

Well, some of us are, but Im not sure you are included in that pool.

Intent is irrelevant to the horse. It is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion. Pointing out that horses suffer terribly without any 'intent' of their people is hardly diversionary. But if that is your stand, trust me, the stock contractors know the value of their rough stock and there is no 'intent' to cause pain or discomfort.

Intention is not everything, although actions might be. People who do things like overfeed a horse until the horse founders have the best intentions, but may actually cause the most misery.

Comparisons to other disciplines are obviously diversionary. It is logically possible to talk about bucking straps and what they do without bringing in any other discipline. I think you can prove this to yourself... try it. The fact that comparisons are made to avoid the issue is a response in itself.

Not really, because we're all familiar with the use of aversives to train dressage horses, so IMO, it's a good place to start (down the path of trying guess how aversive bucking straps might be).

The sport [dressage] does not include as a requirement pain and discomfort as does bucking.

Horse sports most certainly do require discomfort because all training does, which means that the only question is how much discomfort? IOW, which horse sports likely cause the most discomfort, and how do we decide when that amount of discomfort is too much?

I see that the Suicide Race is still being run, and I thought that would have died out years ago. But I suppose as long as horses die while racing and eventing then the Suicide Race is not all that different.

Yeah, Kande, I agree about the Omak Suicide Race. The name ought to tell people something. Also sad that Disney publicized it by making that movie, "Run, Appaloosa, Run." I, too had thought it must have been stopped long ago. I don't know what the comparison might be with regard to TB and QH racing. (Breakdowns among trotters/pacers are generally less frequent and less serious.) Certainly, fewer horses are injured/die in the Omak race, but it's only run once a year - I don't know what the ratio might be compared with all the pari-mutuel tracks across the country. FWIW, at least the Omak horses are generally mature - not 2 and 3 year olds, but still....

Hot4Spots wrote:Certainly, fewer horses are injured/die in the Omak race, but it's only run once a year - I don't know what the ratio might be compared with all the pari-mutuel tracks across the country. FWIW, at least the Omak horses are generally mature - not 2 and 3 year olds, but still....

The percentage of Omak horses that died was quite high back when we were discussing it years ago. My memory isn't reliable, but it may have been as high as 20%? Don't know if the percentage has gone down or not, but it was much higher than the percentage of horses who died at Saratoga this summer, and it was not a good summer for horses at Saratoga. Not that it ever is, but I think more broke down right on the track this year so they couldn't hide it as well as they usually can.

galopp wrote:The bucking straps are usually covered with wool nowadays, but it is (somewhat) tight for about 10 seconds, and the usually bucking life of a bronc (before he goes to be a working horse on a ranch) is about a season.

definitely know of bucking horses that have worked many years, and stayed sound many years, their stories are at the pro rodeo hall of fame

The percentage of Omak horses that died was quite high back when we were discussing it years ago. My memory isn't reliable, but it may have been as high as 20%? Don't know if the percentage has gone down or not, but it was much higher than the percentage of horses who died at Saratoga this summer, and it was not a good summer for horses at Saratoga. Not that it ever is, but I think more broke down right on the track this year so they couldn't hide it as well as they usually can.

It's hard to isolate different factors in trying to find percentages in American TB racing (injuries v. deaths), but the number of fatalities in TB racing in 2016 was (as far as I was able to find out) 1.54 per 1,000 starts, which is the lowest it's been in a while. It has been going down steadily over the past few years, FWIW. If Omak is 20% in ONE race....

Chisamba wrote:the statistics for Pro rodeo injury of bucking horses is around 5 hundredths of one percent

I figured it would be low. Watching the NFR, I'm beginning to think the biggest danger the broncs are in is from over-feeding. A lot of those horses are FAT (and healthy looking). One was fat enough, tho, to make me wonder if she was pregnant. Most of them look pretty slick, too, for this time of year. Must be from southeastern or southwestern states.

Most will only buck once in a weekend, they do this to keep them fresh. The top ones will often be reserved for the finals. So, 15 trips = 12-15 rodeos. Although many rodeos are indoors an can run throughout the year the season is still more or less restricted to the good weather months, meaning they can be on the road for much of it.

If a competitive dressage rider said they went to 12 shows/year would you say it didn't make sense and they should go to more?

orono wrote:Most will only buck once in a weekend, they do this to keep them fresh. The top ones will often be reserved for the finals. So, 15 trips = 12-15 rodeos. Although many rodeos are indoors an can run throughout the year the season is still more or less restricted to the good weather months, meaning they can be on the road for much of it.

So in re "freshness", are you saying they are working these horses maximally for a few seconds at a time with no warm up? Do you warm up your dressage horse? If so why and how does that relate to working bucking horses maximally without warm up? Do you think that is kind?

If a competitive dressage rider said they went to 12 shows/year would you say it didn't make sense and they should go to more?

There is no overlap or logical nexus between a dressage horse trained correctly and a bucking horse. Apples and oranges. The intent in dressage is to avoid discomfort.

It might be the intent but certainly isn't the case in many situations.

The horses are penned together behind the chutes, with more room to roam than many riding horses. Yes, they 'explode' out of the gate for 8 seconds, then gallop/canter around until they exit. That is no different than turning a stabled horse out in the am and having them tear around a field. They are also doing this without a systematic warmup.

I would say that anything we do with horses:any style of riding, driving, ground work is ALL artificial and has more in common than not.

Several times a year, when i turn my horses out in the mornings after a night in the stall, they buck and tear around like, well, rodeo horses! No warm up. Then they roll and get on with grazing. I’ve got a great pic of my Arab gelding doing that when he was 26 yrs old. Looks like a youngster. The only precautions i take are not turning them out fresh when it’s muddy and also I am careful who goes out with whom.

demi wrote:Several times a year, when i turn my horses out in the mornings after a night in the stall, they buck and tear around like, well, rodeo horses! No warm up. Then they roll and get on with grazing. I’ve got a great pic of my Arab gelding doing that when he was 26 yrs old. Looks like a youngster. The only precautions i take are not turning them out fresh when it’s muddy and also I am careful who goes out with whom.

How about with a bucking strap tight around the waist behind the ribs with the weight of a rider who is spurring him for at least 8 seconds?

Tsavo wrote:How about with a bucking strap tight around the waist behind the ribs with the weight of a rider who is spurring him for at least 8 seconds?

I think the lack of a warm up may be an insignificant factor in the life of a rodeo bronc, which is reflected by the statistics on their longevity. A good warm up may be much more important to horses who are more likely to suffer from repetitive stress injuries, and less important to those whose work involves short bursts.

A bucking strap and rider makes them buck higher and possibly harder, but may not actually add significantly to the risk of injury.

My horse still goes nuts on a regular basis and bursts out of his stall and puts on a show which lasts much longer than 8 seconds. It's more about bursts of speed and sliding stops and sharp turns than bucking, and he puts a lot of energy into it, but he apparently doesn't need to warm up before he does it because he's still appears to be damage free.

demi wrote:Several times a year, when i turn my horses out in the mornings after a night in the stall, they buck and tear around like, well, rodeo horses! No warm up. Then they roll and get on with grazing. I’ve got a great pic of my Arab gelding doing that when he was 26 yrs old. Looks like a youngster. The only precautions i take are not turning them out fresh when it’s muddy and also I am careful who goes out with whom.

How about with a bucking strap tight around the waist behind the ribs with the weight of a rider who is spurring him for at least 8 seconds?

The bucking strap doesn’t bother me. I am not a rodeo fan, but I like the bucking horses, especially the saddle broncs. They are huge boned horses, and they are carefully bred for their job. Also, as pointed out by others, they have a life that is MUCH more horse-appropriate than many riding horses that live most of their lives in stalls. Not all rough stock owners are good to their horses but not all dressage trainers are good to their horses either. To condemn the sport may not be the answer we are looking for.

Tsavo wrote:Would you work you horse maximally/explosively on NO warm up SEVERAL times a year?

These are not riding horses. As pointed out before, stalled horses turned out will race/buck/kick with no warm up.

kande50 wrote:I think the lack of a warm up may be an insignificant factor in the life of a rodeo bronc, which is reflected by the statistics on their longevity. A good warm up may be much more important to horses who are more likely to suffer from repetitive stress injuries, and less important to those whose work involves short bursts.

This ^^^

Tsavo wrote:There is no overlap or logical nexus between a dressage horse trained correctly and a bucking horse. Apples and oranges.

Then why do you constantly ask us if we would treat our horses like rodeo stock? If you say there is no comparison, why are YOU making comparisons then.

They don't need a 'warmup' to go buck for 8 seconds. They really don't. Did you warmup Pete when he was in the pasture tearing around in his rehab?

The rodeo contractors do not 'intend to harm'.

And regardless, horses don't care about 'intent'. What a ridiculous box to stand on. Do you think the dressage horse with his crank noseband and his head cranked in goes around in misery but tells himself for the miserable hour that 'gee whiz, there is no intent to harm so its ok'? Seriously?!

As I wrote, my first husband was a PRCA cowboy and I went to Cal Poly SLO which is very serious about their rodeo. I learned a lot about the industry. I remember some very interesting horses from that period in my life. I knew a horse, a big buckskin gelding, that was roped off of, and also used as a saddle bronc (he was one of the Poly string) This horse knew which job he had at which time. if his rider had a rope and a piggin string he was a roping horse, all business. If he was in the chute to be a bronc he was a methodical and calm bronc. One of the rodeo team coaches had two little children, maybe two and a half and four..really littles. They could climb, literally climb, up the legs of that horse, pulling themselves up by girths and stirrups and mane, get up there, double, and that horse would mince around, so carefully, while those kids were up there. It was remarkable. It also was not that uncommon. Horses aren't dumb, they know their job. The broncs I was around, for years and years and years, were fat, friendly, calm in the chutes; they were pros.

Why don't you get a polo wrap or flannel and put it around Petes midsection. Watch him erupt in a pain crazed writing mass of agony.

Seriously. The crank nosebands, the bad sitting trotters, the horizontal shanks of the curbs on the doubles, the learned helplessness, the endless drilling and circles, the side reins, OMG, if I had to choose the fate of a horse I loved I would send him to be a rough stock rather than let him be in some of the perfectly respectable, competitively successful dressage barns I know.

Tsavo, you are so fluid in your requirement for 'science'. In this case you are certainly all about the emotion, your interpretation of the situation with no personal experience at all, and are digging in your dogmatic heels like any snake handling fanatic.

Tsavo wrote:If there is no issue with abuse, why are they only limiting them to a few minutes a year or at most "15 trips"??

If it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.

Because they don't want to use the same few horses over and over again. The contractors have large numbers of horses and ship them to rodeos all over the country, though I believe they tend to keep to certain geographical areas, other than for the NFR. The contestants want different horses so there will be a variety and scores will differ. There are saddle broncs and bareback broncs, so again, the contractors tend to have large herds. There are also "levels" (LOL "dressage" levels) of broncs. There is the "easy" pen - horses that just tend to buck straight forward down the area, kicking out behind. There are the "eliminator" pens - the horses that get wilder in their bucks, or perhaps rear out of the chute, making it more difficult for the contestants. There are horses that may buck straightforwardly, but are big and very strong and have what they call "drop," and tend to pull the rider off over the head (saddle broncs). There is no "sinister" reason they are only limited to 12-20 minutes of "work" a year. You continue to exhibit your total lack of understanding regarding recognized prorodeo.