My inclination is to expand the definition to "Untranslated foreign language is used, in a way that means that only someone who knows that language will understand what has been said."

So a if character identified as French or French-speaking says "Merci" to someone else who's just handed them something isn't a Bilingual Bonus — even if you know virtually no French, you can guess that it means "Thank You". Not just a vague "That was probably something nice" but "Oh, they said 'Thank you'."

the context makes it clear that what was being said wasn't friendly or nice, but only someone with more than a passing acquaintance with Russian (or a translator program/site that does Russian slang and invective) will know what a pidoras is and why he reacts the way he does. It is a Bilingual Bonus. People who are Bilingual — Russian in this case — get a bonus bit out of the scene that people who don't, won't.

edited 23rd Sep '13 3:40:45 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Actually, second big question: is the name encouraging all this misuse? Obviously, it would take a huge yes to change it, which is why it's probably better to see what misuse can be turned into correct usage.

I'd say that the name of Bilingual Bonus is encouraging the misuse — or at least a sizable part of it. The name sounds straightforward and fairly broad: Audience members who are bilingual, at least to a degree) get a "bonus". The definition requires that the "bonus" be something that has no context in the work, like the lettering on the girl's kimono in the page image, which says "I'm not wearing any underwear" — a complete non sequitur.

A tortured analogy would be naming a trope "Ham and Cheese Sandwich", then specifying in the definition that it only applies to "grilled ham and cheese sandwiches made with rye bread and cheddar cheese" and wondering why people are mistakenly using it to cover non-grilled sandwiches made with white bread and Swiss cheese, too.

edited 23rd Sep '13 6:12:24 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

This trope should probably cover any bonuses, and not just non sequiturs.

I think Meaningful Name covers different languages. I'd say most names aren't used in the same language they're constructed from, whether it's because the language isn't the same anymore or because it's a different language all together.

I agree that the name "Bilingual Bonus" implies that it's a very broad supertrope, rather than a narrow subcategory. Genius Bonus doesn't refer only to things that requires a particular type of knowledge — it can cover equally a reference to an obscure Jabobean Revenge Tragedy, or the inner workings of a particular machine, or a bit of geo-political history, or, well... whatever. Any kind of specialized knowledge counts as a Genius Bonus. Parental Bonus is also equally broad — it's anything that's put into a kid's show with the expectation that the kids won't get it; it's there for the adults who may watch. It doesn't have to be of a specific nature.

So we've got a naming convention: <X> Bonus, meaning a broad category of content that's there as a bonus for a particular part of the audience: Parents/adults or smart people. Then we have this very narrowly defined thing, that uses the same naming convention, even though it's defined as being limited to a very specific type of content, as well as a part of the audience.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Yeah, I don't see why "out of context" has to be part of the definition. That might be worth a subtrope, but I think the solution to this situation is to broaden the definition, not prune examples and wicks.

In that case, perhaps one step that needs to be taken is to figure out which meanings should be included? Given that I checked 50 wicks, I think the ones I have in my OP are the major ones. Anyone seen any others that are common that I missed?

Also, if you happen to know both Japanese and German, you will make the connection between Sora and the "Himmel" door before it actually comes up in the story. After all, both Sora and Himmel mean Sky.

VerbalTic.Real Life: A variation of a sort: in Poland, there are numerous self-deprecating jokes about such usage of the local equivalent of the eff-word.

A clever Bilingual Bonus in thisPenny Arcade strip, as the word in question ("kurwa") does mean "whore" and indeed tends to be one of the first words foreigners pick up, to the chagrin of some Poles and the amusement of others.

Fridge.The Dark Knight Saga: Bane's motto seems to be "the fire rises". He says the phrase in the prologue, and it's turned up on T-shirts and so forth. Think back to The Dark Knight, when Alfred tells Bruce "some men just want to watch the world burn". —Jedd The Jedi

This, as well as the Nena example above, may be explained by the use of guttural R in German and French, which can sound like w to an English speaker.

Far From Sanity: All of the tech support people (having grown up in random bits of Eastern Europe). Kaedleigh speaks quite a bit of Russian (so that she and Smudge can insult each other without anyone else (apart from the other tech support boys) understand). Ice also appears to speak Spanish fluently, but he might just speak a tiny bit of Spanish, or may have merely been showing off.

In Planetes manga Leonov's mother speaks to Hachimaki in almost perfect Russian. The only possible flaw is calling her son by last name only. Bilingual Bonus is required to understand it, because nobody cared to translate it. Probably justified by the fact that Hachimaki didn't understand her words too.

In Farscape "To Russia with Love", where she and Harm travel to Russia, two female hotel clerks make some crude remarks about him 'being able to afford' a woman like Mac (they are in civvies). Mac steps forward and rattles off a quick, untranslated, reply, then tells Harm not to bother trying to look up what she said in his phrasebook.

Pushing Daisies: In "Dim Sum Lose Sum", the spoken Chinese is all real. except for adding details about the speakeasy, Chuck's translation is nearly verbatim.

The sign in Emerson's window, supposedly for his PI business, is actually for restaurant that specialises in pork ribs. Also, it's facing inwards. It gets a bit difficult to take Emerson's Film Noir office seriously after a while.

Resident Evil 5: If you know Swahili, that is. For instance, Majini means roughly "wicked" or "supernatural." Some of the things the Loudspeaker Majini says include "Uroboros is a gift" and "no one shall find out what happened here!"

Speaking Simlish: Done entirely for laughs in Magicka. Every line is recorded individually, but spoken in a combination of English, Swedish, and Gibberish. The result sounds something like the Swedish Chef from The Muppet Show, with lines like "Beware the forest's guardian, Jormungandr!" becoming "Hoop-a-doop-a-derpity-derp-a-Yoor-moon-gon-derrrrrr!"

To Be or Not to Be: During the first few minutes, Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft actually sing (and then argue) in Polish. (See Translator Convention below.) If you actually speak Polish, they both speak in such ridiculous, over-the-top accents that it might make your ears bleed. They essentially speak the way a British or American person would speak if they were to read a piece of Polish text out loud - except worse.

You Don't Mess with the Zohan: Averted, subverted and played straight in the same film. Lots of the stuff said in the film is gibberish (no, there is no such thing as muchentuchen or fizzy bubbelach, and the occasional word uttered in surprised with lots of khkhkh sounds is made up; as a matter of fact, ‘Zohan’ is not even a real Israeli name), Sandler uses few Hebrew words with Yiddish pronunciation, and Ido Mosseri as Oori calls the Walbridge employee a homo in legitimate Hebrew. But the most notable example of this trope (subversion or playing straight, YMMV) is when the Phantom calls Zohan a bastard in Hebrew, which is somewhat of a Crowning Moment of Funny for Israeli viewes.

Also, ‘puntakhat’, while it’s not an actual Hebrew word, slang or not, sounds like a corruption of ‘pot’ (vagina) and ‘takhat’ (arse).

Don't know for sure.

Ben 10: Destroy All Aliens: Chain combos into Stealth Pun: The Tokustar species is based on Ultraman, a popular Japanese superhero character. The genre of Japanese cinema/television Ultraman belongs to is called Tokusatsu. In other words, Way Big is based on a toku star.

Independence Day: Julius Levinson (father of David), who had heretofore not been "on speaking terms with" God, is seen leading a group in the sixteenth benediction of the Shemoneh Esrei near the film's climax.

Swordfish: Sort of. Any Finnish speaker will tell you that the "language" spoken by the Finnish hacker and his legal counsel is most definitely not Finnish (it's actually German, and changed to actual Finish in the German dub, where he said "Haista paska senkin mulkku", which means, "Fuck you, you dick").

The Karate Kid: Viewers who knew mandarin would have pegged Meiying's father as a potential source of conflict early on once they heard Cheng and Meiying's first conversation (which didn't show up in the subs).

Homestuck.Tropes A-C: Used in an interesting way. The troll alphabet is actually the Daedric Alphabet from The Elder Scrolls, rotated 180 degrees. The first name suggestion translates as "Turdodor Fuckball." The "real" name, however, translates as "Trollplanet", which is obviously just a joke since the real name is "Alternia". The attempted insulting name for Karkat translates as "Bulgereek Nookstain". During their fight scenes, the word "GRIEF" appears instead of the kids' STRIFE. Much later, we discover that the name of the Fluorcite Octet's ultimate attack translates as "Ancestral Awakening."

With the introduction of "Caledfwlch", it is suddenly a good time to be able to speak Welsh (it's the Welsh name for Excalibur, and pronounced "Caledvoolch"). Caliburn, another name for Excalibur, is derived from this, meaning Caliborn's name may or may not be a Meaningful Name.

—-> DAVE: what are welsh things doing in this game
—-> DAVESPRITE: thats an awesome question

Starting from this page Serenity narrates WV's dream in morse code, and it is not gibberish- actually it's a Call Back to this scene with Jade. And a bug is involved in both of them.

—> Serenity: Help, my friend is stuck inside the big can building. You must hurry. He's not very bright and he doesn't understand when I blink. Are you watching me? Oh no, don't blink me, you don't understand blinking either. How do you people even exchange ideas without luminous rear ends?

In "My Two Favorite People," this exchange between Lady Rainicorn and Jake after Jake asks her if she knows a joke:

—>Lady Rainicorn [in Korean]: I can't think of one... but remember the time when we ran naked through that farmer's cabbage patch? (Giggle) He was so offended! Finn: What's the joke? Jake: Uh... well, the joke doesn't... translate very well...

In "Wizard," the tadpole wizards' name is Bufo. Bufo is Latin for toad.

The Japanese symbols on the Fridjitzu Manual literally mean: "iceninja".

Princess Bubblegum speaks German in the episode "What have you done?", which contains a little explanation as to why she faints once everyone is cured:

—->PB: I'm so happy! I could... I could... (attempts to flip bed, then faints.)

In the end "From Bad To Worse", Lady Rainicorn reveals that she didn't free the zombified Jake due to Idiot Ball.

So that's more Easter Egg in a foreign language, more Meaningful Name in a foreign language, and more instances of "uses an untranslated foreign language," which the trope specifically says it is not (and I'm not even sure it's tropeable).

I think the name is definitely a problem, at least for the trope it claims to be.

It seems like Easter Egg in a foreign language is what the definition is talking about, and that surely is tropeable. The definition has, in bold type no less, a very clear message stating that this trope is only about hidden information in a foreign language, not simply any instance where a foreign language is untranslated.

Don't see why a redefinition is necessary, as the definition is clear. A rename doesn't seem necessary to me but wouldn't hurt anything. The one thing that definitely needs to be done is to cull examples that are nothing more than instances of untranslated foreign languages.

Actually, it's about hidden information in a foreign language where the context indicates a certain amount of fourth wall breaking. That's pretty different from either the laconic or everything that came before the last sentence of the description. For example, it would specifically exclude the part in the Iron Man film where knowledge of a foreign language hints at a future major plot point, because in-context, it makes perfect sense.

It's there because there are several specific ways, already suggested in this thread, for the definition to possibly expand (ie ways in which the trope is misused), and a second crowner would determine which of those specific ways should be included.

Yes, it is a bad idea. And since this crowner is brand new, only having been added today, I'm locking it and will make one that includes the redefinitions that have been suggested in the thread instead of a vague TBD on two of the options.

And no, Leaper, don't count on using another crowner to pick the definition. Put the proposed definitions in. If that means you make three or four options that are all "Redefine to..." and differ in what the proposed redefinition is, that's what you do.

edited 25th Oct '13 5:48:48 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Does Easter Egg include plot-sensitive or important information, such as the terrorist dialogue in the Iron Man movie? If not, should that be an additional option?

Also, Meaningful Name in a foreign language is a common enough misuse that I think it may be proper to have it as an option all its own, separate from the "include any use of untranslated foreign language" option. ? ?

edited 25th Oct '13 6:35:30 PM by Leaper

Page Action: Bilingual Bonustake 2
25th Oct '13 5:39:58 PM

What would be the best way to fix the page?

At issue:

14 (yeas:16 nays:2) 8.00 : 1

Make Bilingual Bonus the missing supertrope, redefine to "Easter Egg in a foreign language" and exclude "<X character or person> happens to be bi-or-multi-lingual."

-3 (yeas:4 nays:7)

Include "Meaningful Name in a foreign language" in the trope definition without including all incidences of an untranslated foreign language. (Not necessarily mutually exclusive with other options.)

-6 (yeas:4 nays:10)

Make Bilingual Bonus the missing supertrope, redefine to "Easter Egg in a foreign language" and include "<X character or person> demonstrates their bi-or-multi-lingual abilities."

-8 (yeas:1 nays:9)

Do not change the page; simply clean out the bad examples, using the current definition: "Out-of-context or non sequitur use of an untranslated foreign language"

-8 (yeas:2 nays:10)

Redefine to include any use of an untranslated foreign language, to include Meaningful Names in another language.

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