Posted 1 year ago on July 5, 2013, 6:47 p.m. EST by DKAtoday
(26427)
from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Do Walmart, Target & Home Depot Hurt The Economy?
Controversy around big-box stores like Walmart, Target, Lowes and Home Depot is nothing new, but communities are getting smarter about tackling these...
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Do they hurt the economy - it's a double edged sword. If you are a construction worker and need supplies - HD and Lowes can provide them - at a cost to shutting down other local businesses.

With regard to what they provide and cost - a lot of things are comparable to smaller hardware stores but the small hardware stores don't have the inventory the big box stores have when it comes to providing construction lumber.

When it comes to Wally World - they definitely hurt the economy because all the crap they sell comes from china - very few American made products.

But the bottom line with most people is cost - as one lady said it costs her $5.00 for gas to go to Wally World and she saves anywhere from $100 - $150 when shopping there.

Now if you look at the overall picture from a price perspective then I would say no they don't hurt the economy because people have more money in their pocket to spend. The bottom line with most people is "it's all about price".

Home Depot has made inroads into the repair business. Basically they charge a high price, then sub it out to the lowest bidder. Their subs screw things up constantly, its a total scam.

Eventually what its going to be is when you need your house worked on, your only choice is Home Depot crews. They will eventually regulate and legislate all their competition out of business, just like all the other multinationals.

Also consider - the new high tech high efficiency furnaces - etc - you need a ( several ) well placed CO detector or risk dieing in your sleep because the new heat exchangers are such crap that they crack almost during installation and need expensive repair/replacement frequently. Anyone here over 40 years old? How often did you ( while growing up ) hear about carbon monoxide deaths? How many of those were related to a home and the furnace? None?-on the average? That would coincide to my experience as well growing up. CO death was due to improper ventilation while using a kerosene heater or a propane heater in a camping tent or ice house or cabin - home heating death was pretty f'n rare.

The problem is not with the furnace, it's with the installer. I am not aware of any "recalls" on any high efficiency furnaces". If you are aware of any,or know of the failures associated with the manufacturer, let me know because I do get involved with "high efficiency furnaces".

Well, I am not sure you know the difference between the "older 55%" efficiency units compared to today's 90% efficiency units.

As far as "durability" they are built entirely different. The heat exchangers are smaller, the metal is thinner and the unit is smaller. Most high efficient models use "U" tubes for the heat exchanger and that's where the efficiency comes in to play.

As far as durability I never came across any that had "heat exchanger cracks" but I did come across lots of high efficiency furnaces that were installed improperly and as a result CO2 became an issue.

Lets not forget that a lot of people who install and work on these units cut corners when it comes to making repairs - especially with the safeties built into the units.

Honestly, I have to disagree with your logic on the warranties. Companies are coming out with the most outrageous warranties I have ever seen. Its Custards Last Stand on a global scale, say anything to get the sale.

Well I am very familiar with the HVAC industry and I can honestly say a lot of contractors are offering 10 Warranty - Parts/Service. These warranties are backed up by the mfg -

I don't know if you are aware but I believe only 1 manufacturer in the USA build all the HVAC equipment in this country. They build it to the companies specs - Carrier - Trane - Lennox - Rudd - Rheem - Heil they are all built by the same mfg to different specs.

I didnt know that, Im not terribly familiar with HVAC. Although I do know its a great field to be in- people will mortgage their mothers house to get their AC fixed. All the aesthetic stuff is a little less sturdy going forward.

So, what kind of testing equipment did you supply to the HVAC Industry?

With regard to "inspecting welds" I never said "you have to be able to weld to inspect.

Yes, you can be a welding inspector without having knowledge about welding. Welding inspectors have "welding inspecting certifications. Welders have "welding certifications" and these are two completely different certifications.

Now as you stated you were a QA manager and your company was supplying testing equipment to the HVAC industry.

Nowhere have you stated that you were ever involved in "design, manufacturing and building" HVAC equipment.

Supplying "testing equipment" does not make your company a "manufacturing company" BTW what kind of testing equipment did your company provide?

Was it test equipment used in the design/build process or was it test equipment to be used on the equipment after it was build and sent to market?

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

U still here? Gnawing at this like a dog with a bone ( more like naw-ing 4 U ).

Nowhere have you stated that you were ever involved in "design, manufacturing and building" HVAC equipment.

What I did say is that we made equipment - much of it custom - and to do that specs are required. Also selling to industry requires knowledge of industry as well as industry reps. So a fair bit of knowledge is available for research and evaluation.

I never said it was the contractors warranty - what I did say was the warranty that was being offered to the customer by the contractor is backed up by the manufacturer.

So I guess the contractor who does the the install needs to tell the customer that the equipment is warranted by the manufacturer and should they have a problem they can contact the manufacturer? That's basically what you are saying.

And BTW, I was a QC inspector on a nuclear plant inspecting welds - does that make me an expert on how to weld - no it doesn't.

Just because you were a QA manager supplying testing equipment to HVAC contractors doesn't make you an expert in "engnieering and design" especially when it comes to the design, manufacturing and building process in making warm air furnaces, boilers, water heaters, air handling units or anything else associated with the HVAC industry.

I never said it was the contractors warranty - what I did say was the warranty that was being offered to the customer by the contractor is backed up by the manufacturer.

So I guess the contractor who does the the install needs to tell the customer that the equipment is warranted by the manufacturer and should they have a problem they can contact the manufacturer? That's basically what you are saying.

And BTW, I was a QC inspector on a nuclear plant inspecting welds - does that make me an expert on how to weld - no it doesn't.

Just because you were a QA manager supplying testing equipment to HVAC contractors doesn't make you an expert in "engnieering and design" especially when it comes to the design, manufacturing and building process in making warm air furnaces, boilers, water heaters, air handling units or anything else associated with the HVAC industry.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

Well guess what shithead - because we made equipment for the HVAC industry - I saw a lot of their components that they sent to us to make custom testing equipment. Also shit for brains you do not need to be able to weld to inspect welds.

So, what kind of testing equipment did you supply to the HVAC Industry?

With regard to "inspecting welds" I never said "you have to be able to weld to inspect.

Yes, you can be a welding inspector without having knowledge about welding. Welding inspectors have "welding inspecting certifications. Welders have "welding certifications" and these are two completely different certifications.

Now as you stated you were a QA manager and your company was supplying testing equipment to the HVAC industry.

Nowhere have you stated that you were ever involved in "design, manufacturing and building" HVAC equipment.

Supplying "testing equipment" does not make your company a "manufacturing company" BTW what kind of testing equipment did your company provide?

Was it test equipment used in the design/build process or was it test equipment to be used on the equipment after it was build and sent to market?

So tell everyone when have I ever "name called" people on this site like you have? And please tell everyone where I have criticized anyone?

You have a problem with people who disagree with you. You can't get into an adult conversation without name calling or trying to make the person who commented look stupid - you do this to everyone who disagrees with you.

Yep, a typical arrogant elitist statement. So, he needs to get burned just like any other 0.1% with that attitude. I include the Waltons, Gates and Bezos in that statement, among others. And if I had my way, they'd burn literally. At the stake. We could use Home Depot's crappy lumber to build the pyre. It's all it's good for anyway.

Good luck getting it to light - ummm - either without letting it dry for a year 1sr or use a lot of kerosene ( flash over not so bad as gasoline ) - but we don't wanna do that anyway - too much carbon pollution happening already.

Go out and talk to them. I was out last night. People are clueless. And more frustrating, they dont even want to know either.

The entire climate of politics has turned them all off, which I believe was what was meant to happen. Pick the dumbest people on the planet to be your talking heads, dont dive in deep on anything, and just attack. And certainly dont hold your own accountable.

I have an older friend who is a lifelong Dem, always votes Dems but hates politics for the most part. Always hated FOX. He managed to find MSNBC the other day, and his reaction to me was "They're just as bad as FOX, its all just attacking"... I was like "yup".

Who on earth in their right mind would want to go into this system at this point? Only sociopaths and the extremely power hungry. No else has the lack of self respect to do it. Its a disgusting mess.

They don't want to know. Like you've been saying all along, that's one of the biggest problems. Apathy. And "don't bust my bubble." My sister's like that. Doesn't care or want to know about all the bad shit going on, it's too depressing. She'd rather live in her fantasy world of computer solitaire and mindless TV shows.

My other sister and brother-in-law, same thing. They're both fairly intelligent but they get their news from MSM and spend their time watching Judge Judy and Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader. This is the state of the American population, people.

Your sis works for the VA and hadn't heard of him. That's crazy, isn't it?

When you figure that people in associated business to other agencies of government or private business for that matter - generally know more than others due to a real and very informative grape vine - YEAH - then it does seem crazy that someone working for the VA or any other governmental agency would not be aware just from inter & intra departmental communications.

We are more responsible than them, thank God. I don't see any of them on this site telling us the supposed "other side of the story."

I wouldn't really like to see them burn literally. Not only is it a bad way to go, but I think I'd rather see them suffer slow. I'm thinking prison, but not one of them 'country-club' prisons for rich folk. Hard-core prisons, in with the general population. Then educate the prisoners as to how bad these guys have been fucking things up.

I used a lot of Porter when I was out in Phoenix, never heard of it before then. But yes, seemed like good stuff. The contractors all liked it.

The problem with Behr, especially the stuff with the primer in it ( just better paint, its still latex so its still not great primer) is that the pigment floats in it very easy, poor acrylics. So your cut in and your roll have different thicknesses, with different drying times, so your cut ins always dry darker.

"I would say no they don't hurt the economy because people have more money in their pocket to spend."

Yeah, but less people to spend it. You really don't think this shit thru very well sometimes, do you? The average Walmart store has 470 employees. If, for every job there, there were 1.5 jobs lost from local businesses, that means there's 235 people out of a job in that community.

According to the following website, 196,000 US jobs have been lost from 2001 to 2006 as a result of Walmart's imports from China:

Do you really think the people who buy at wally world give a shit about the people who work there? If they were that concerned about job losses because wally world was built, if they were that concerned about the minimum wages these people make they wouldn't shop there.

It's apparent they are not. So don't tell me I don't think this shit thru very well.

That's the problem, Storm, people don't give enough of a fuck. So, you're right about the bottom line being all most people care about, I have to give you that. But the biggest majority of people don't know these facts either, and if they did, at least some of them would do the right thing and not shop there. Like me, I'm broke as shit but I still refuse to shop Walmart.

Maybe you care but they don't for if they did they wouldn't be shopping there - I very seldom darken the doors of wally world and if I do I may spend $10.00 at most, unless of course I can buy 22 LR ammo.

Once people start to factor in the true cost of the products they buy, you'll see a change in attitudes. And I, for one, am getting tired of buying crap products that break or wear out in six months. I'd much rather pay more for quality, and I'll bet I'm not alone in that thinking.

That's the problem with those solar panels wearing out so quick, on that other thread. That's the point of that story. Start building QUALITY again, damn it! Fuck this throwaway bullshit.

What you talk about convenience? Was no big deal. No instead of having it all in one place? There were several stops a contractor ( or anyone else ) would make - at varying times dependent on what was needed. This had the effect of building community - this is how socializing was done professionally and personally this is where the community met each other while involved with doing one project or another - professional or personal. Because it was not all in one location was not a hassel - it was just how it was. You still traveled the same miles - basically - you just made more than one stop in your travel - this is when people new people and the pace of life/work was not you foot jammed down on the accelerator.

Now for the "average" person who is not concerned about "upgraded" items HD will work. However, a person can order "upgraded" items from their catalogue.

With regard to construction tradesmen who do residential work it for a living HD can provide them with the things they need especially handymen.

If you are into cabinetmaking, woodworking or anything else that requires specialty woods or if you are into building 1 million dollar homes, you don't go to HD for those items - you go to a wholesaler.

As far as me acting like a person who build houses for a living, there aren't too many things I can't do when it comes to things associated with housing remodeling. As a matter of fact, when it comes to electrical, plumbing, HVAC, or build out - I can do them all as a professional craftsman. Can you say that?

Let me start off by saying Ive been in construction my entire life. And I can tell you that chances are your idea of "professional craftsmen" workmanship is probably a bit off, assuming you havent been doing it as a career. Its all peaches as long as it goes as planned. Im not saying its the most difficult stuff in the world, but gimme a break.

Order from their catalog? Are you kidding me?

I dont know a plumber who doesnt stock up at their supply house. Lumber same thing. Electricians same thing. Flooring guys too.

As a pro, it doesnt make sense to partner with a huge multinational, theres no real partnership. They dont give a fuck.

Theres a reason tradesmen call it Home Cheap-o. Low level flippers and handymen use it, you are right.

Apparently you didn't follow what I said - I see handymen all the time going to HD for plumbing supplies and it's probably because they aren't licensed and they can't get their supplies from a wholesaler.

It doesn't matter if they are doing plumbing, electrical, or remodeling a room or installing tiles - they go there for their supplies because they don't have access to a wholesaler.

Now if you want to talk about commercial construction, then that's a different story. When you are talking about doing a office building, or a strip mall, sub-division, those folks do have licenses and they do go to wholesalers for their supplies.

But you can be certain if they are in a bind, and need something in a hurry that can be provided by a HD store around the corner they will buy there.

As far as my experience I have also been in the construction trades all my life working on residential, commercial and industrial projects and I have been doing it as a career.

As a matter of fact people who work for me get pissed because I am too particular about how things should be done and they don't like it. It's hard to find good help who will do things in a "professional manner" as a professional craftsmen.

No shit - when you consider lumber - the crap is expensive - it is all too often so green you get soaked handling it - then try to find a straight length - good f'n luck. I do not see contractors going there - they will go to a good private lumber warehouse/yard - get cheaper material - material that is cured dry and straight. Working with warped crap is expensive as well as being crappy - as to use it the contractor must find ways to hide the defects ( for one ).

Maybe its because the people who buy that lumber is satisfied with buying it. I recently built a 40 X 12 screen house using all lumber from HD - 5 years later and the 2 x 4's are as straight as they were when installed - no warping, cracking or checks.

The HD I go to doesn't carry warped lumber because they know the people who buy there won't put up with it.

I would think a lot has to do with demand - I have seen shit lumber come through but when I need good lumber I sort through it - it takes time even if I have to cut the straps on another bundle that looks better.

Now there are a few wholesale lumber places where I live that carry the "good stuff" Oak, Birch, Zibra, the best of the best. It's pricey but if it's needed for woodworking projects they come out first class.

Yes, yes they do. The big-box stores roll into town and wipe out the locally owned businesses. If they take a financial loss later down the road then they roll back out of town.http://www.columbia.edu/~pi17/walmart.pdf

You don't have to read very far into the above link. Just far enough to see the number of Wal-Mart's not opened due to protests.

The door kind of swings both ways depending on the products. If a mom and pop store is selling a gallon of milk close to five dollars because they are a "convenience store" then the big box store that sells the same gallon of milk for 3 dollars and fifty cents will get the buyer. I watched that in the 90s. Now, the price is up everywhere because they can.

We have several farmers markets in the area. Actually, we have several farms with their own stores open during the week--works for me. A local dairy farm with their own store and a couple of real butchers. The farmers markets are open on the weekends and many of the vendors have little homemade crafty crap---which is cool if you are into that but that isn't what I need.

All of our book stores in my area are closed. We have a few used book stores but you get what you get with that. BAM has replaced one Borders and that leaves the other now closed Borders and Barnes and Noble. All of the local bookstores that sold new books were driven out. I would love to religiously rely on my local used book store. There are two but one carries nothing but romance novels and crap. The other one carries a lot of civil war history and some cool stuff but doesn't carry what I am interested in. I always walk out with something. Just not what I went for. So, I have to find used book stores online so I can find specific books. You can't have a used bookstore and fill it with nothing but romance books and crap and expect to have a booming business.

The point is, in some areas of business, people have a desire to buy locally but what they need or want isn't there or is so overpriced that they can't afford it. I think that this opens the door for these clowns to come in a few areas. In many other areas it destroys everything in its path.

Its kind of a catch-22. The reason they can offer it lower is that they buy in such bulk. The reason that people cant afford it is because A) the box stores all pay their employees like shit, thus driving wages down for everyone else, thus making the purchase that much harder, and B) the perceived value of goods gets driven down as well.

Which is true in some areas. But, take furniture. People buy furniture made by the Amish because it is constructed of wood and will last. In fact, you could buy that furniture and keep it in the family for the next hundred years. You are going to pay for that. People won't buy it if they can't afford it or it's too heavy/traditional for their style or if they are in temporary housing. But, people that want the quality continue to buy it. I don't care how many little furniture stores you put up in the area. I don't care how many put it together yourself furniture found in Target or Wal-Mart that exist. The Amish crafted furniture will survive because of the quality.

It is a system - extensively studied and developed overtime - to make it so small operations can not compete. they don't get the same prices as major chains do as they do not buy in the same volume. Like most everything these days - there is a real double standard in business. Book stores? The written language ( printed ) has been on the decline for decades - it is amazing to find even used book stores in some areas - and it is not really ( as is often purported ) that people are getting too lazy to read - it is another symptom of the ills of society - too many hours at work - dead tired when get home - turn on the boob tube to let it catch U up on the days happenings and entertainment. Life is so rushed that fewer people will take the time to relax and do some reading.

Well, there are some awesome used bookstores. But, consider that almost all of the written material is coming through the media conglomerates and there are few independent publishers. So, looking for some of the material is more difficult. There is a major difference between someone that opens a used bookstore and doesn't give a damn about what they carry and someone that opens a bookstore that does--and it shows. Further, a lot of people open businesses that shouldn't. You see this happen a lot in restaurant/bar businesses. Where they may or may not open at the time that they say they will, they may or may not close at the time they say they will, and they usually don't pay their staff worth a damn. The air-conditioner may or may not work.

There are a couple of types of readers. I don't read fiction unless it's from someone like Junot Diaz. Everything that I acquire is either classics or non fiction. I don't read to relax. I read because I'm a reader. I'm going in for information. Many other folks do to. Other folks are hard core fiction and that is it. Some folks take out the top best sellers in the NYT because they can.

If you have something in place already then the system will wipe it out. If you have nothing in place or you sell mediocre products or don't really care then you leave a gap. I love to buy local but I don't need an outfit for my dog or matching mom and daughter clothing or a crocheted afghan or handmade earrings (unless they really rock). It depends on the product.

But, consider that almost all of the written material is coming through the media conglomerates and there are few independent publishers.

Another corp(se)oRATion dominated industry? There is not much in the way of independent anything these days. Other than some successful restaurants or small vehicle repair shops ( fewer each year ) and other such things as boutique shops in a tourist town set-up.

Further, a lot of people open businesses that shouldn't. You see this happen a lot in restaurant/bar businesses. Where they may or may not open at the time that they say they will, they may or may not close at the time they say they will, and they usually don't pay their staff worth a damn. The air-conditioner may or may not work.

Self defeating - these are businesses that ween them self out of the market place - fail. Don't ya think?

If you have something in place already then the system will wipe it out.

The system is doing it's Damnedest in that effort.

I love to buy local but I don't need an outfit for my dog or matching mom and daughter clothing or a crocheted afghan or handmade earrings (unless they really rock). It depends on the product.

Exactly - but this type of odds and ends type of business seems to be the ones not quite competed out of business yet by the mega monsters.

Oh, Ben Bagdikian nails the media conglomerate something fierce and lays it out. No different than from any other type of media it is about control of the information.

You know what? A reliable honest mechanic is damned hard to find. The ones that you do find are so busy that it is unreal. That is telling in and of itself. You find them by word of mouth.

And no, for some reason those businesses don't wean themselves out of the market place- some franchise opens up down the street and people go to it because they know the sucker is going to be open consistently. Sadly, those businesses stick around entirely too long.

Those odds and end ones will never be competed out but they aren't going to be extremely successful either and that will not be the fault of the mega stores.

Like I said, it really depends on the product or services and ........location, location, location.

Or Business Business Business - as there are big chains ( gander mountain ) that will situate seemingly out in the middle of nowhere to take advantage of the hunter and fisher and camper traffic of the recreational/tourist trade.

Sure. No denying that and they are waltzed in with the 7 buck and hour jobs and all of that money is going to a corporate office in another state. For us it was Cabella's. For J it was another corporation and the money went to.......Missouri?

Are only three - but they are representative of the rest of their fellows as well. As you consider all of the like operations - well - then you begin to see the major hit society is taking from allowing them to operate as they do.

Good article. And the analysis of Lowe's claims vs. reality pretty much agrees with what has been deduced from Walmart's impact as well. The number thrown around in regards to Walmart is that for every job created by their store, the community loses 1.5 jobs. Lowe's claims their Cape Cod store would create 115, but the study says 163 jobs would be lost from other stores. That's pretty damn close to 1.5.

Oh yeah, I didn't even get into that. Less pay, plus less local business competition, AND that, unlike the local businesses, Lowes would be doing very little in the way of helping the economy by doing business with the local companies.

I'm glad to see communities are starting to see the light. The tide may indeed be turning, DK.

I think a moment of dawning realization is happening - but it took protests to wake up the sleepers who were all good with the creeping crap. We will see how it goes from here - the longer it takes the worse the crap will be that life will have to struggle through.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of awakening happening recently, definitely in part to the global protests and uprisings. But also to situations like this story. Bravo to the Cape Cod Commission for hiring FXM Associates to do an analysis and find out the realities. Twenty years ago, the communities would've probably welcomed Lowes with open arms.

Twenty years ago, the communities would've probably welcomed Lowes with open arms.

Twenty? How about last year? It was only after the shit hit the fan that communities started to look at how they planned and operated. That was the real birth for many communities to start looking at studies of effect. On their own that is.

In a lot of places, yeah, last year. Cape Cod has definitely been ahead of the game because according to the article, they started started integrating local economic issues into development policy in the 1990s. But consider Cape Cod; historic, with a lot of tourist business, I believe, so it stands to reason they wouldn't be too receptive to 'sprawl.' And a lot of communities have been bucking the Walmart trend for years now, so maybe there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Funny where insight will spring from - or why it will - it is just good that realization is not a lost ability - not completely anyway - it can still spread and build steam quickly as long as it is able to be shared.

It was probably places like Cape Cod, or some other historic district, that got the ball rolling in the first place. Good thing they did. That documentary, 'Walmart: The high Cost of Low Prices' had a pretty extensive list of all the communities that have rejected Walmart over the years. It looked like hundreds of towns.