He got a good deal and obviously believes in the project. It's not like he didn't have options.

Quote:

As much as I totally agree on his level of talent, to simply say he will get a top drive regardless is arrogant.

I honestly believe it's realistic more than it is arrogant (also, I can't be named "arrogant" for thinking Hamilton would always be able to get a top drive ). Even if his only choice would be to return to Mclaren - they'd be happy to rehire him.Ferrari might be more interested in Vettel, but when Alonso stops and Vettel doesn't go to Ferrari, I bet Ferrari would hire Hamilton in a heartbeat. Or when Vettel does go to Ferrari, I image RBR would want Hamilton.

_________________Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

He got a good deal and obviously believes in the project. It's not like he didn't have options.

Quote:

As much as I totally agree on his level of talent, to simply say he will get a top drive regardless is arrogant.

I honestly believe it's realistic more than it is arrogant (also, I can't be named "arrogant" for thinking Hamilton would always be able to get a top drive ). Even if his only choice would be to return to Mclaren - they'd be happy to rehire him.Ferrari might be more interested in Vettel, but when Alonso stops and Vettel doesn't go to Ferrari, I bet Ferrari would hire Hamilton in a heartbeat. Or when Vettel does go to Ferrari, I image RBR would want Hamilton.

With Hamilton now out of the team they'll see what life is like without him and it could be nicer atmosphere than with him so I wouldn't say they'd be happy to rehire him just yet!

Nah, I think McLaren and Hamilton are still getting along just fine. If rumors are true, Alonso isn't always mister sunshine inside Ferrari either, for example.Hamilton practically grew up there and he's immensely quick. They'd rehire him

_________________Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Nah, I think McLaren and Hamilton are still getting along just fine. If rumors are true, Alonso isn't always mister sunshine inside Ferrari either, for example.Hamilton practically grew up there and he's immensely quick. They'd rehire him :)

Don't think they would, if Mclaren had really wanted Lewis for 2013 they would have met all his demands and still have him now (instead I imagine they are secretly sniggering at Mercs mistake, seems he's written off one of their W04's already ) <-- that's a joke for those with a low pram/toy disassociation threshold ) Mclaren gave the Hamster arguably the best car in 2012 and all he could do was finish fourth, that's not even classed as being in the medals. No, can't see them being in any particular hurry to go down that road again. Vettel is a different proposition altogether, as fast/faster than Hamilton but brings consistency and very smart driving to the table, look at Brazil 2012 for example. You don't accidently win 3 WDC's in a row and Mclaren know it.

_________________o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Mclaren gave the Hamster arguably the best car in 2012 and all he could do was finish fourth, that's not even classed as being in the medals.

I'm not a Hamilton fan (rooting for Vettel), but what you're writing here is absolutely rubbish. He finished fourth, but the only reason he wasn't contending for the title is because of the numerous errors Mclaren made and because of the unreliability of his car.

Hamilton has driven a great season, in all honesty made less mistakes than Vettel, and Mclaren let him down. Not the other way around. They know that, trust me.

_________________Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Nah, I think McLaren and Hamilton are still getting along just fine. If rumors are true, Alonso isn't always mister sunshine inside Ferrari either, for example.Hamilton practically grew up there and he's immensely quick. They'd rehire him :)

Don't think they would, if Mclaren had really wanted Lewis for 2013 they would have met all his demands and still have him now (instead I imagine they are secretly sniggering at Mercs mistake, seems he's written off one of their W04's already ) <-- that's a joke for those with a low pram/toy disassociation threshold ) Mclaren gave the Hamster arguably the best car in 2012 and all he could do was finish fourth, that's not even classed as being in the medals. No, can't see them being in any particular hurry to go down that road again. Vettel is a different proposition altogether, as fast/faster than Hamilton but brings consistency and very smart driving to the table, look at Brazil 2012 for example. You don't accidently win 3 WDC's in a row and Mclaren know it.

Really sounds like you don't like Hamilton, otherwise its hard to think of a reason why anyone would think his 2012 season was anything but great. Its McLaren that let Hamilton down last year 100%.

But yes I agree that Hamilton could find it harder to get back into a top team than some realize.

Alonso is not leaving Ferrari anytime soon. His current contract runs till 2016 and there's a good chance he'll extend. Schumacher has opened people's eyes. No one is going to retire too early anymore.

My feeling is that Vettel is going to stay put in RBR. They have got a great thing going and there's no reason for him to get off the gravy train. He is very young so he could easily wait another 5 years before moving to Ferrari.

So that leaves McLaren only (unless Mercedes or Lotus becomes very competitive which is unlikely). McLaren would only want Hamilton back if their drivers prove inadequate. And even then there are lots of "if(s)". They have an image and they won't allow themselves to be seen as desperate. Add to that the fact that Hamilton is very expensive.

Mercedes has to work for Hamilton. Otherwise he could find himself in a tough spot. But F1 careers are long these days, so he'll get his chance to turn things around.

Mclaren gave the Hamster arguably the best car in 2012 and all he could do was finish fourth, that's not even classed as being in the medals.

I'm not a Hamilton fan (rooting for Vettel), but what you're writing here is absolutely rubbish. He finished fourth, but the only reason he wasn't contending for the title is because of the numerous errors Mclaren made and because of the unreliability of his car.

Hamilton has driven a great season, in all honesty made less mistakes than Vettel, and Mclaren let him down. Not the other way around. They know that, trust me.

Actually, you are wrong, what I have written is fact, what you have written is largely theoretical, not fact. (I shall refrain from calling it "rubbish" ) Trying to talk Hamilton up the order due to reliability issues, team mistakes etc can't work in isolation, what if Alonso had not been taken out in Belgium? He'd most likely be WDC 2012. Fact is the best he could manage was 2nd.

The what if/but/because/shoulda scenarios are endless which is why F1 is not based on hypothetical results or fans favourite theories, the teams & drivers all have to face the real world, all have to deal with reliability, weather, strategy and all manner of unknown factors waiting to randomly bite any one of them in the donkey. You don't race with a theoretical team, you put a real car and real driver on the grid and let him race other teams and drivers over a season to determine the outcome & crown a winner. Fact is Hamilton could only manage 4th & no amount of creative writing or calling other peoples opinions rubbish alters the results one iota.

_________________o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Nah, I think McLaren and Hamilton are still getting along just fine. If rumors are true, Alonso isn't always mister sunshine inside Ferrari either, for example.Hamilton practically grew up there and he's immensely quick. They'd rehire him :)

Don't think they would, if Mclaren had really wanted Lewis for 2013 they would have met all his demands and still have him now (instead I imagine they are secretly sniggering at Mercs mistake, seems he's written off one of their W04's already ) <-- that's a joke for those with a low pram/toy disassociation threshold ) Mclaren gave the Hamster arguably the best car in 2012 and all he could do was finish fourth, that's not even classed as being in the medals. No, can't see them being in any particular hurry to go down that road again. Vettel is a different proposition altogether, as fast/faster than Hamilton but brings consistency and very smart driving to the table, look at Brazil 2012 for example. You don't accidently win 3 WDC's in a row and Mclaren know it.

Really sounds like you don't like Hamilton, otherwise its hard to think of a reason why anyone would think his 2012 season was anything but great. Its McLaren that let Hamilton down last year 100%.

Lol I can see that it may come across like that, it’s really not the case, I simply won’t kow tow to this unofficial incredible driving God myth that’s constantly perpetuated round some parts, don’t buy any of the it. If he racks up multiple WDC’s and drags Merc up by their bootlaces to endless WCC’s in future years I might stop yawning but all these 4ths & 5ths year in year out? Overrated

Can't argue with the rest of your post

_________________o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

The crystal ball says:1. Massa finishes career with Ferrari in good standing and goes to RB2.Vettel goes to Ferrari in two years and waits for Alonso to retire.3. Alonso get his own F1 team.4. Newey signs up with Alonso.5. Braun signs up with Alonso.6. Button's girl friend signs up with Alonso.7.Alonso sells team to Renault but keeps Button's girl friend.

Actually, you are wrong, what I have written is fact, what you have written is largely theoretical, not fact. (I shall refrain from calling it "rubbish" )

Incorrect. Fact: the Mclaren was unreliable. Fact: Mclaren made lots of errors that cost Hamilton. Fact: Hamilton was consistently fast and error-free.

Your post was rubbish because you implicitly place the blame on Hamilton for not doing better than finishing fourth, and adding that Mclaren wouldn't want to rehire Hamilton because he couldn't do better. Don't try to back out from that.

Quote:

Trying to talk Hamilton up the order due to reliability issues, team mistakes etc can't work in isolation, what if Alonso had not been taken out in Belgium?

I'm not even talking in isolation. Been following the forum this year? The points Hamilton lost from the unreliability and team errors have been noted down in some thread here and there - and the ideal case for the others (Alonso getting points in Spa, e.g.) was also taken into account. Like I said, Hamilton would have been right up there.

Quote:

The what if/but/because/shoulda scenarios are endless which is why F1 is not based on hypothetical results or fans favourite theories, the teams & drivers all have to face the real world, all have to deal with reliability, weather, strategy and all manner of unknown factors waiting to randomly bite any one of them in the donkey. You don't race with a theoretical team, you put a real car and real driver on the grid and let him race other teams and drivers over a season to determine the outcome & crown a winner. Fact is Hamilton could only manage 4th & no amount of creative writing or calling other peoples opinions rubbish alters the results one iota.

True but that's all talk in the air. You wanted to bring to the table that Mclaren wouldn't want to rehire Hamilton because of him not being able to finish up higher in the WDC. And that reasoning is simply rubbish when it has been Mclaren letting down Hamilton in 2012, not the other way around.

_________________Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Well that’s the usual reheated sob story in a nut shell, all drivers suffer reliability and team errors, in essence what you have written is the same old regurgitated apologist tripe (or "rubbish" as you are so fond of saying) and counts for nothing in the real world, certainly not points, records, titles or silverware anyway. But this bit is the real gem, the brilliance of this statement is that I couldn't tell if it was just sarcasm or actual gibberish :

mds wrote:

I'm not even talking in isolation. Been following the forum this year? The points Hamilton lost from the unreliability and team errors have been noted down in some thread here and there - and the ideal case for the others (Alonso getting points in Spa, e.g.) was also taken into account. Like I said, Hamilton would have been right up there..

I can hardly see the keyboard for the tears of laughter! Yes I read some of that cockamamie diatribe last year, there’s no weight to any of those crackpot theories, it’s all biased opinionated twaddle presented as if it were to be believable fact & reeked of sour grapes. Acid test, drop into your local bookies and ask them to back pay out on the pretence that some random dribbling idiot on the internet has worked out that Hamilton was actually the 2012 WDC, not Vettel. Let me know how you get on, I’ll be in for a fair few quid.

Or you could slap yourself around the head and tell yourself not to be so gullible in future.

_________________o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.

Or you could slap yourself around the head and tell yourself not to be so gullible in future.

It's not a fact of me being gullible, it's a fact of you being unable to actually see what happened out there and taking performances into account. Sweeping Hamiltons performances under the table with BS like "all drivers have to face unreliability and team errors" is rubbish (yes, I'll keep on using this word). Alonso did not have to face unreliability. Vettel did have to face some, but not nearly to the same degree as Hamilton. Same goes for team errors. Red Bull made a few, Ferrari I don't quite remember anything they did wrong for Alonso, Mclaren made a bunch of them.Driver errors? Vettel made some, Alonso made 1 (in my view), Hamilton none (also in my view).

Anyway, the point I'm making: Mclaren let Hamilton down in 2012 while Hamilton pretty much maximized what he could do given the unreliability and the errors.If you're not even agreeing with that, you have a very distorted view on reality given pretty much the whole F1 world in the know shares that opinion.

And if you do agree with that, you'll have to concede your earlier statement ("they wouldn't want to go down that route again") was, indeed, rubbish.

Of course, as in any title battle, Hamilton hasn’t been alone in suffering setbacks and both Vettel (alternator failures in Valencia and Monza) and Alonso (first-corner collisions in Spa and Suzuka) can also both justifiably point to probably more than 30 points being lost through misfortune. Nonetheless, with around a century more points to his name, Hamilton would be well within striking distance of the pair of them with a car capable of winning races.

Even with a more cautious estimate than the one above, a more reliable 2012 McLaren would have put a very different complexion on both driver and team’s final season together.

Man, testing had provided at least a few days' reprieve from the driver fan wars, and now we're back to the old routine already.

Just pointing out the fallacies

No, you're making a good driver taking the blame for not coming in higher than fourth while he did an absolutely great job and couldn't help the fact his car broke down on him A LOT and his team made a good number of errors.

_________________Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

Man, testing had provided at least a few days' reprieve from the driver fan wars, and now we're back to the old routine already.

Just pointing out the fallacies

No, you're making a good driver taking the blame for not coming in higher than fourth while he did an absolutely great job and couldn't help the fact his car broke down on him A LOT and his team made a good number of errors.

Honestly, I'd ignore him. He's been like this since he joined, a good 2/3 of his posts are to do with Hamilton and how he is mediocre. It's quite weird how some people have such a fixation on one driver when they don't even support that driver. Anyway, ignore him, because he'll just keep coming back with more nonsensical drivel.

Nah, I think McLaren and Hamilton are still getting along just fine. If rumors are true, Alonso isn't always mister sunshine inside Ferrari either, for example.Hamilton practically grew up there and he's immensely quick. They'd rehire him :)

Don't think they would, if Mclaren had really wanted Lewis for 2013 they would have met all his demands and still have him now (instead I imagine they are secretly sniggering at Mercs mistake, seems he's written off one of their W04's already ) <-- that's a joke for those with a low pram/toy disassociation threshold ) Mclaren gave the Hamster arguably the best car in 2012 and all he could do was finish fourth, that's not even classed as being in the medals. No, can't see them being in any particular hurry to go down that road again. Vettel is a different proposition altogether, as fast/faster than Hamilton but brings consistency and very smart driving to the table, look at Brazil 2012 for example. You don't accidently win 3 WDC's in a row and Mclaren know it.

Really sounds like you don't like Hamilton, otherwise its hard to think of a reason why anyone would think his 2012 season was anything but great. Its McLaren that let Hamilton down last year 100%.

Lol I can see that it may come across like that, it’s really not the case, I simply won’t kow tow to this unofficial incredible driving God myth that’s constantly perpetuated round some parts, don’t buy any of the it. If he racks up multiple WDC’s and drags Merc up by their bootlaces to endless WCC’s in future years I might stop yawning but all these 4ths & 5ths year in year out? Overrated

Can't argue with the rest of your post

I don't subscribe to any such driving god myths for Hamilton. I saw every race last year and it just seemed that Hamilton was in peak form all year. The number of points he scored was also dependent on McLaren's reliability and pitstops which were poor. For example, Kimi fans often say that his '05 season was great and only the car let him down. And yet I recall Kimi making at least 1 very big mistake that year and none from Hamilton last year. And unlike Button he was never downright slow either. So just because McLaren failed to achieve as a team doesn't have to mean that Hamilton failed to do his part.

Anyway suit yourself. I totally believe Alonso was the best driver last year. The fact that Vettel beat him on points doesn't change that opinion. I judge Hamilton's performances along the same lines.

Not a chance. Hamilton is a great driver whose talent is unquestioned. He'll get a top quality drive whenever he wants.

Which explains why he went to Merc....

A team struggling back in 10th, a good race for them is when both cars score points...

As much as I totally agree on his level of talent, to simply say he will get a top drive regardless is arrogant.

Ferrari have made it clear they are not interested in him, RBR have made it clear that him and Vettel might not be a good idea - his only choice is to return to Mclaren.

Merc was pretty much his only other option if he wants to hit at the occasional podium this year. And what people fail to realize who defend this decision, If merc ends up fighting the midpack that means we could see 2011 all over again. Where he makes far too many mistakes, remember there is also one other driver in front of him (most likely) Massa......

Do not be disingenuous. A team that was champion only four years ago and that has Ross Brawn at the helm (only atm, that is true... is, potentially, a WC contender...