Let Cliff Avril walk and sign Jonathan Joseph to a multi-year deal worth $8-10 million per year. Willie Young or Lawrence Jackson could've stepped in, and though they wouldn't bring as much to the D-line as Avril did, Suh and Fairley would be the main D-lineman for the future, and the secondary would be no joke. This could make it a top 10 defense. Thoughts?

_________________

July 3rd, 2012, 3:30 pm

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3485Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

Its hard to say. I mean, at the time no one really expected this, at least that i know of. I trust the front office to do the right thing.

July 3rd, 2012, 4:02 pm

LionsAllDay

National Champion

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 amPosts: 876

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

kdsberman wrote:

Its hard to say. I mean, at the time no one really expected this, at least that i know of. I trust the front office to do the right thing.

Same. I hope Cliff isn't signed long term. I have nothing against him and he is ascending as a top 10 DE, but $10,000,000 can be used on much more important things like a true #1 cornerback or a strong safety if Amari doesn't prove himself this year. A franchise tag would make the most sense since it's too late to just let him go.

_________________

July 3rd, 2012, 4:08 pm

kdsberman

League MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3485Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

Shotty wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

Its hard to say. I mean, at the time no one really expected this, at least that i know of. I trust the front office to do the right thing.

Same. I hope Cliff isn't signed long term. I have nothing against him and he is ascending as a top 10 DE, but $10,000,000 can be used on much more important things like a true #1 cornerback or a strong safety if Amari doesn't prove himself this year. A franchise tag would make the most sense since it's too late to just let him go.

I agree.

July 3rd, 2012, 4:10 pm

The Legend

HC – Jim Caldwell

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4699Location: WSU

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

Unless you have Darrelle Revis or Charles Woodson/Champ Bailey in there primes the DE is more valuable. In today's game most No 1 corners are at a disadvantage and only the one or two truly great ones can dominate. id rather have the passrushers and solid corners.

as for last season the lions supposedly made a play for joseph but had to settle for wright

July 3rd, 2012, 4:21 pm

LionsAllDay

National Champion

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 amPosts: 876

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

The Legend wrote:

Unless you have Darrelle Revis or Charles Woodson/Champ Bailey in there primes the DE is more valuable. In today's game most No 1 corners are at a disadvantage and only the one or two truly great ones can dominate. id rather have the passrushers and solid corners.

as for last season the lions supposedly made a play for joseph but had to settle for wright

That's why this came to mind. It was before Avril was signed to a franchise tag, so maybe they were trying something similar to my approach. Look at the Texans. They didn't have Mario Williams for 11 games last year, so their pass rush wasn't great unless they blitzed, and they had the #2 defense in the league. The reason is they had Joseph. He's close to a shut-down corner and imagine if we got him. Chris Houston would be a great #2 corner. Our defensive line would still be top 5, and our linebackers do their thing.

Next offseason, DRC and Brent Grimes will be the top FA cornerbacks, and the year after the top CBs aren't much better, which is why they should've done whatever it took to get Joseph. Either way, like mentioned before I trust our management to do what's right.

I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

July 3rd, 2012, 5:33 pm

LionsAllDay

National Champion

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 amPosts: 876

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

mwill2 wrote:

I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.

Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.

_________________

July 3rd, 2012, 9:13 pm

LionsAllDay

National Champion

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 amPosts: 876

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

mwill2 wrote:

I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.

Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.

_________________

July 3rd, 2012, 9:13 pm

The Legend

HC – Jim Caldwell

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4699Location: WSU

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

Quote:

Quote:

That's why this came to mind. It was before Avril was signed to a franchise tag, so maybe they were trying something similar to my approach. Look at the Texans. They didn't have Mario Williams for 11 games last year, so their pass rush wasn't great unless they blitzed, and they had the #2 defense in the league. The reason is they had Joseph. He's close to a shut-down corner and imagine if we got him. Chris Houston would be a great #2 corner. Our defensive line would still be top 5, and our linebackers do their thing.

Next offseason, DRC and Brent Grimes will be the top FA cornerbacks, and the year after the top CBs aren't much better, which is why they should've done whatever it took to get Joseph. Either way, like mentioned before I trust our management to do what's right.

I think you are overstating the significance of the Joseph signing with Houston. I think Joseph is a very good player (5 yrs/49mill) and his contract though expensive was not over the top. Still he is not the only reason Houston had a good defense - 1: terrible division with 6 games against Indianapolis, jacksonville, Tennessee 2: if you look at there schedule they didnt really beat anyone with a good offense and the Saints were the only team on the schedule with a great offense (HOU gave up 40 and lost, Brees 370 yds and 3 2nd half TD passes) 3: they had a new defensive coordinator 4: They had an outstanding ball control running game offensively to keep there D off the field 5: they were able to get good production out of players on there roster that more fit the 3-4 scheme like Connor barwin, brooks Reid adn had an outstanding rookie season from JJ Watt as well as other outstanding players on defense besides Joseph - Brian Cushing, Demeco Ryans 6: besides Mario Williams, minimal injuries, especially to the secondary

So anyway, I think that Joseph was a good signing but probably one the Lions could not afford at the time. Houston played in a weaker division with weaker offensive opponents and had less injury problems to there defense and especially in the secondary. If they had to play GB and New Orleans multiple times Im not sure how much better you would still think they are. In common games (5 vs New Orleans, Oakland, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta) the Lions defense gave up a total of 18 more points than Houston's (without the luxury of Houston's running offense) but the Lions had a better record 3-2 (2-3 for Houston) in those games despite playing more of those games on the road.

P.S. If you knew that the Lions pursued Joseph last season why are you making a big deal of this? They, like you, wanted Joseph - but for whatever reason money, location, etc Joseph picked Houston. Its not like the Lions front office made some egregios error and didnt have him on the radar.

I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.

Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.

I'm not discounting the fact that a good CB can make a big difference. The Jets serve as a good example, but they are the exception to the rule.

If you look at the other defenses you mentioned, most of them also have great pass rushers. You think Carlos Rogers is elite? He was a marginal starter for the Redskins--once Rogers had Justin Smith and Aldon Smith applying pressure, Rogers looked like a star. Ladarius Webb lines up behind last year's defensive player of the year (Suggs). Flowers played behind Tamba Hali, Texans had Mario and Connor Barwin (Barwin was top 10 in sacks last year). I'm not suggesting that these aren't good corners--I'm simply pointing out that good corners don't matter if they aren't playing behind good pass rushers.

Now, the other teams you mentioned...Green Bay, in terms of yardage, was the worst defense in the league last year so I'm not sure why they are on your list. If you want to rip the Lions secondary for how it played in week 17, I can't blame you...but watch the Packers secondary in the same game.

Cleveland's pass defense looks decent on paper until you realize that teams don't bother throwing the ball against them--their offense was so terrible, teams were able to play Cleveland conservatively because the Browns couldn't score enough to keep up. Besides, it's probably not wise to emulate the roster of a 4-12 team. Miami's defense was #25 in yards allowed, #27 in points allowed, and finished with a 6-10 record so I'm not sure why we'd want to emulate them either.

Sure, an upgrade at CB would help the Lions--no question about it. But if getting that CB means losing the top pass rusher, I say "no thanks."

_________________Proud member of the Contract Extension for Schwartz Fan Club.

July 4th, 2012, 12:11 am

LionsAllDay

National Champion

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 amPosts: 876

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

The Legend wrote:

Quote:

Quote:

That's why this came to mind. It was before Avril was signed to a franchise tag, so maybe they were trying something similar to my approach. Look at the Texans. They didn't have Mario Williams for 11 games last year, so their pass rush wasn't great unless they blitzed, and they had the #2 defense in the league. The reason is they had Joseph. He's close to a shut-down corner and imagine if we got him. Chris Houston would be a great #2 corner. Our defensive line would still be top 5, and our linebackers do their thing.

Next offseason, DRC and Brent Grimes will be the top FA cornerbacks, and the year after the top CBs aren't much better, which is why they should've done whatever it took to get Joseph. Either way, like mentioned before I trust our management to do what's right.

I think you are overstating the significance of the Joseph signing with Houston. I think Joseph is a very good player (5 yrs/49mill) and his contract though expensive was not over the top. Still he is not the only reason Houston had a good defense - 1: terrible division with 6 games against Indianapolis, jacksonville, Tennessee 2: if you look at there schedule they didnt really beat anyone with a good offense and the Saints were the only team on the schedule with a great offense (HOU gave up 40 and lost, Brees 370 yds and 3 2nd half TD passes) 3: they had a new defensive coordinator 4: They had an outstanding ball control running game offensively to keep there D off the field 5: they were able to get good production out of players on there roster that more fit the 3-4 scheme like Connor barwin, brooks Reid adn had an outstanding rookie season from JJ Watt as well as other outstanding players on defense besides Joseph - Brian Cushing, Demeco Ryans 6: besides Mario Williams, minimal injuries, especially to the secondary

So anyway, I think that Joseph was a good signing but probably one the Lions could not afford at the time. Houston played in a weaker division with weaker offensive opponents and had less injury problems to there defense and especially in the secondary. If they had to play GB and New Orleans multiple times Im not sure how much better you would still think they are. In common games (5 vs New Orleans, Oakland, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta) the Lions defense gave up a total of 18 more points than Houston's (without the luxury of Houston's running offense) but the Lions had a better record 3-2 (2-3 for Houston) in those games despite playing more of those games on the road.

P.S. If you knew that the Lions pursued Joseph last season why are you making a big deal of this? They, like you, wanted Joseph - but for whatever reason money, location, etc Joseph picked Houston. Its not like the Lions front office made some egregios error and didnt have him on the radar.

This thread wasn't made to complain about the Lions not doing it, or about picking up Joseph in particular. I didn't and still don't see why Cliff Avril is worth $10,000,000, so I was sharing an idea. I don't know if the Lions pursued him for sure, it was rumored, and there were other top CBs in free agency that year, but what JJ was asking for was the closest to what we paid for Avril's franchise and likely will pay yearly if he's signed to a multi-year deal. Lawrence Jackson has showed some promise, and Willie Young complementing him can't hurt. Like I said, I know, based off of Fairley playing the 1st quarter of the Saints game in December mostly healthy before re-injuring his foot, he will be a top DT. He absolutely dominated while he was on the field, and against Carl Nicks who is considered one of the best, if not the best, guards. Suh is dominant, plain and simple. A DE who could be replaced with little consequences and asks for ridiculous money isn't worth keeping, especially where there is a GLARING problem with another position.

_________________

July 4th, 2012, 2:18 am

LionsAllDay

National Champion

Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:06 amPosts: 876

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

mwill2 wrote:

Shotty wrote:

mwill2 wrote:

I'll take a pass-rusher over a corner every time. Often it's a great pass rusher who makes the CB look good anyway. And this defense is built primarily around the front seven, especially the DL.

Are you kidding me? Is a full rotation of DTs and 2 reliable DE's other than KVB not enough? Some teams who revolve around their front seven and have top defenses are the 49ers, Texans, Jets, Packers, Ravens, Chiefs, Browns, and Dolphins, and what do they all have in common? Every one has a true #1 cornerback, more-so a MUCH better #1 cornerback than Chris Houston. Carlos Rogers, Jonathan Joseph, Revis Island, Charles Woodson, Ladarius Webb, Joe Haden, Vontae Davis, and Brandon Flowers are each true #1 cornerbacks, and that is why all of these teams put up great defensive numbers each year. Until someone steps up and takes the spot of a true #1 corner (I think it will be Aaron Berry), the defense will be #15 against the pass at best.

I'm not discounting the fact that a good CB can make a big difference. The Jets serve as a good example, but they are the exception to the rule.

If you look at the other defenses you mentioned, most of them also have great pass rushers. You think Carlos Rogers is elite? He was a marginal starter for the Redskins--once Rogers had Justin Smith and Aldon Smith applying pressure, Rogers looked like a star. Ladarius Webb lines up behind last year's defensive player of the year (Suggs). Flowers played behind Tamba Hali, Texans had Mario and Connor Barwin (Barwin was top 10 in sacks last year). I'm not suggesting that these aren't good corners--I'm simply pointing out that good corners don't matter if they aren't playing behind good pass rushers.

Now, the other teams you mentioned...Green Bay, in terms of yardage, was the worst defense in the league last year so I'm not sure why they are on your list. If you want to rip the Lions secondary for how it played in week 17, I can't blame you...but watch the Packers secondary in the same game.

Cleveland's pass defense looks decent on paper until you realize that teams don't bother throwing the ball against them--their offense was so terrible, teams were able to play Cleveland conservatively because the Browns couldn't score enough to keep up. Besides, it's probably not wise to emulate the roster of a 4-12 team. Miami's defense was #25 in yards allowed, #27 in points allowed, and finished with a 6-10 record so I'm not sure why we'd want to emulate them either.

Sure, an upgrade at CB would help the Lions--no question about it. But if getting that CB means losing the top pass rusher, I say "no thanks."

I understand that Avril is becoming a top DE, but you're eluding the problem. Even when healthy, our pass defense struggled. We could have a top 10, hell top 5 defense if we get a TOP cornerback. Even with Avril, Fairley, Suh, and KVB, our defense will struggle. What happens if the defense fails to get pressure on a play? Do you really trust our secondary to stop Andre Johnson on a vertical route? A top CB would solidify our defense and push us into the TRUE Super Bowl contender category, not just another defensive end who could be replaced by one of the ends on the roster or a FA asking for much less money.

Let Cliff Avril walk and sign Jonathan Joseph to a multi-year deal worth $8-10 million per year. Willie Young or Lawrence Jackson could've stepped in, and though they wouldn't bring as much to the D-line as Avril did, Suh and Fairley would be the main D-lineman for the future, and the secondary would be no joke. This could make it a top 10 defense. Thoughts?

With all the knuckleheads that have been arrested this off season, after not having produced anything for the Lions yet, why are so many people ready to run a guy who has never gotten into trouble and has continually improved and produced on the field out of town. I don't get it. You pay that guy and run the idiots out of town. Not the other way around. That's what lead up to 0-16. We ran off Herman Moore, Johnny Morton, Robert Porche, James Hall, and others. And Barry saw all this going on and said, "I've seen enough", and quit.

I don't get the anti- pay the man sentiment on this site. It's not you that will have to write the check. And he can get paid in a cap friendly way, while getting the money he wants. It will eventually get worked out, even, if it has to wait until next off season. The 2014 season will see the cap explode. We simply need to structure his deal in a way so that he gets some up front money now. Then in 2014, he gets a big roster bonus that is guaranteed. That big roster bonus would be a 1 time payment. So, it won't haunt us the rest of the contract.

P.S. We couldn't let him walk last off season. He still had a year left on his contract. We could have traded him though.

July 4th, 2012, 11:56 am

The Legend

HC – Jim Caldwell

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4699Location: WSU

Re: Last offseason, why didn't the Lions do this?

Quote:

This thread wasn't made to complain about the Lions not doing it, or about picking up Joseph in particular.

if thats true you should have considered a difft title and not attributed all of houson's defensive prowess to signing joseph

Quote:

I didn't and still don't see why Cliff Avril is worth $10,000,000, so I was sharing an idea.

its because as you mentioned in your next post that Avril is becoming a top DE

Quote:

I don't know if the Lions pursued him for sure, it was rumored, and there were other top CBs in free agency that year, but what JJ was asking for was the closest to what we paid for Avril's franchise and likely will pay yearly if he's signed to a multi-year deal.

cant know for sure all signs point to the lions having pursued him. avril didnt get paid 10 mill last year when joseph was available so what you are saying is pointless. bc the lions have 10 mill for avril this year doesnt mean they could ve afforded joseph last year. maybe they could have signed brandon carr instead of avril this year - others on this website have made that argument.

Quote:

Lawrence Jackson has showed some promise, and Willie Young complementing him can't hurt.

yes i agree but lo jack is needed to spell KVB. Young has great potential but so far has 3 career sacks and 14 career tackles. lets see a little more production and ability to stay healthy before we rely on them in bigger roles. is that so wrong?

Quote:

Like I said, I know, based off of Fairley playing the 1st quarter of the Saints game in December mostly healthy before re-injuring his foot, he will be a top DT. He absolutely dominated while he was on the field, and against Carl Nicks who is considered one of the best, if not the best, guards.

again you are talking about 1 maybe 2 quarters of football but i agree the potential is there. aside from that there are plenty of question marks surrounding fairley. he will be getting a suspension to start this season bc of drug and alcohol problems and his foot injury isnt such a slam dunk to be a part of his past. i think that foot will flare up from time to time and cost him playing time, games and maybe even keep the lions from giving him more than a rotational type role. we ll only find about the foot injury if fairley can stay clean enough to not end up suspended or in prison

Quote:

Suh is dominant, plain and simple. A DE who could be replaced with little consequences and asks for ridiculous money isn't worth keeping, especially where there is a GLARING problem with another position.

SO you went from Avril being one of the top DEs to someone who could be replaced with little consequence? Im not following, yes I saw the stuff about LoJack and WIllie Young but even when those two backups missed time last year the Lions defense sufferred. So are we to believe that without Avril the lions defense would be fine? Do you really think that? As for the glaring problem with the corner position I ll agree that its definitely a weaker position than the DL. However, the real glaring problem last season was with the depth - not the starters. Houston/Wright/Berry when healthy were solid in 3 WR packages, the real problems emerged when Louis Delmas went down and had to be replaced with Chris Harris (who is now gone) and Don Carey/Alfonso Smith/Brandon McDonald all had to fill in for our top 3 corners. Through week 11, the Lions pass defense was rated 4th in the NFL, week 11 is when Delmas went down and others missed time in the weeks that followed. The depth at safety should be upgraded by either Sean Jones or Erik Coleman being healthy and the corner situation may be weaker in the top 3 but the depth should be better with Bentley/Greenwood/Green coming in to compete with Smith.