The last week brings more business deal news from the team behind the last and next Star Trek movie. Writer/producers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman have sold a couple more pilots for the next seasons, and JJ Abrams has added another film to his future schedule (after the Star Trek sequel).

Orci & Kurtzman Sell Political and Western Pilots

Star Trek writer/producers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman have sold their second and third pilots for the 2012/13 TV season. For ABC their K/O production company will make Secret Cabinet, which is described by THR as:

[A] procedural that follows a newly-elected president and his “secret Cabinet,” the government’s covert team of America’s most elite minds who investigate and protect the nation from strange occurrences and “conspiracy theory truths.”

Anyone who follows Bob Orci on Twitter or in the comments here at TrekMovie knows that he is a bit of a conspiracy buff, so it looks like he will have an outlet. Orci & Kurtzman are executive producing along with Robot Chicken’s Matt Senreich and Exit Strategy’s Heather Kadin. Orci is penning the pilot along with Robot Chicken’s Seth Green, Michael Dougherty and Jon Favreau, who will also direct the pilot.

And for FOX, K/O has sold an unnamed Western-themed pilot which Deadline says will tell the origins of Wyatt Earp and his brothers. The pilot has been written by The Shield’s John Hlavin.

Abrams adds another film to slate

And finally, Star Trek producer/director JJ Abrams has added another project to his Bad Robot/Paramount production. Few details are known at this time, but Deadline reports it is a "mysterious adventure" and Abrams is collaborating with writer/director Billy Ray (State of Play, 24). It isn’t known if JJ Abrams is just producing or will also be involved as director and/or writer on project with Ray, but JJ’s next film project as a producer and a director is of course the Star Trek sequel.

Its appearing more and more that “Star Trek 2″ will be released in 2013 at the earliest, with a possibility of being pushed back to 2014.

Were in the 2nd week of October now, and shooting hasn’t even begun yet. The script isn’t finalized. It does not have a set cinema premiere date, and on top of all that, the “powers that be”, are all busy on adding new side-projects to their resumés, and several of the main cast are busy doing other movies.

For months now, we’ve been hearing that there will be “new information about the movie “soon””. When is soon ACTUALLY soon, and not some distant date, sometime in the future?

Hey Bob, here are some Conspircy Eps you can do.
1. 9-11 was an inside Job.
2. Kennedy was shot by someone else.
3. The Moon landing never happened.4.
4. The Govt Controls Vilent weather.
5. The Govt Controls Earthquakes.
6. Area 51 has a space ship with Aliens.
7. Aliens Live among us.
8. Alines have taken over our leaders.
9. we are bracing for an Alien attack.
10. Crop circles were made by Space Ships.
So. There is the first 10 Eps you can do.
(Note. I don’t truly believe in any of that.

I have a great conspiracy ep: How a couple of writers, a producer, and a producer/director managed single handedly to throw half of Hollywood out of business in the biggest and hungriest grab since La Grande Bouffe. In the name of Kahless, guys, leave something on the table for someone else. You’re not spreading yourselves too thin, you’re becoming completely graphite! :)

All of these sidetracks will derail the next Star Trek movie again. Now I’ll place odds at 2014 (maybe). IMO, if they don’t want the gig? Just say so, and give it to a team who will take the ball and run with it. Jeez, Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer and company could’ve made three films in the same interim and they’d have all been successes, too.

Oh well; if they drop the ball on Star Trek, the ‘supreme court’ can focus on Wyatt Earp the TV show, Hawaii 5-0, Cowboys and Aliens 2 and a bunch of other stuff I’m not interested in. So help me, sounds like some serious ADHD going on….

Buzz, you can’t be serious! You mean you’re actually suggesting the guys behind the first two Transformers movies, the Star Trek reboot, the Hawaii 5-O remake, and a rumored movie based around the View-Master toy could possibly…

Great, ‘Star Trek XII’ would be released in the same year as the Superman movie reboot ‘The Man of Steel’ instead of the same year as the film adaptation of ‘Les Miserables’ (Boubil and Schoenberg’s legendary musical, based on Victor Hugo’s legendary novel).

I think you find that Jj is showing a lot of disrespect to ST fans. His other movies were not exactly barnstormers, but with ST he has a ready made audience starved of their next feed of ST. Either get on with it, or ask someone else to.

@2, keep in mind that JJ is also a producer of films, and while he has his prority focused on the next Star Trek film, he like other directors and producers does need to continue developing and OKing other projects with in his own company, Bad Robot.

Here is the Greatest Conspiricy of all time.
A Director and a couple of Writters and a Producer have Conspired to Write and produce and release a Movie Called Star Trek.
Now that is a Major Conspiricy of Epic Proportions!!!.

The one involving the President and a secret cabinet sounds like a fun yet thought provoking series. I will be watching for it’s release. Loved the X-files, but there are so many other stories to be told. These guys can make it work because of that and they will keep the stories original, imo.

Agree with #4.
I am really pissed by the way Star Trek and the fans are handled by the so called Supreme Court and Mr. JJ.
I don´t care about their projects (they all sound lame to me anyway), all i care about is Star Trek.
WHERE IS THE ANOUNCEMENT?
I bet there will be a new Star Wars movie before Star Trek XII is released

What exactly by the way does this news contribute to the trekmovie news???
Its not related to Star Trek therefore irrelevant therefore not worthy of mention

How do you conclude that JJ Abrams “has his priority focused on Star Trek”? The last two years i don´t see one sign apart from blablablaaaaaaaa, delays and unprofessional time and working schedules form his part and his company and Orci / Lindelof etc

I like “Fringe” and “Person of Interest”, but I despise “Hawaii Five-O”. “Super 8″ and “Cowboys and Aliens” were just okay movies, not great. If the “Transformers” movies were shown at Guantanamo, the world court would accuse the US of torture, again.

So if Bad Robot can’t find the time to squeeze Star Trek Reboot 2 into their ever-growing list of projects, I have no problem at all if Paramount gives the project to someone else… someone who actually wants it.

Oh My God JJ!!! Please don’t start on something else and stray away from Trek!! Not even for a moment!! As a fan,I’m asking you,please don’t do that to us!! And Mr.Orci this sounds like a cool show! You and Mr.Kurtzman do some awesome stuff outside of Trek! I will be waiting! :)

I’m glad Bob Orci is one of the generation after mine who is curious enough to look for the who is pulling the levers behind the curtains when he could be on cruise control like so many of his peers.

The “Secret Cabinet” idea is real with a history going back to the founding fathers. There is much reality to mine story ideas to support such a TV series. Pearl Harbor, The JFK murder, The Southeast Asia war, the Black Budget, Groom Lake etc. and Iran-Contra are just a few actions.

Present day continues to be rife with equally devious activities. Not just in the US either, as the LHC is a multinational effort in the same vein.

LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover and their cronies conspired to kill JFK and “protected” the nation from the truth behind the JFK assassination (carried out by Mafia hit men) by escalating the “war” in Southeast Asia/Vietnam. Search Pearl Street Mafia if you care to learn more on this topic.

I suppose you’re also going to tell us the Holocaust didn’t happen, right?

Next time, keep your own theories to yourself. It reeks of incredible ignorance and arrogance.

“Secret Cabinet” sounds dumb. Of course, I’m sick to death of conspiracy theories. They’re usually crap made up by people who refuse to believe the truth, or they just think they can be cool by not following the mainstream, or are just trying to capitalize on a tragedy.

I am currently a community college student, and have come to look at all the multiple projects they are working on like this. Is it possible for a student to take on 3 maybe 4 highly technical classes and succeed with high marks….of course. However, the said student would have to budget his time right, and put in a lot of consentrated effort in each class. I think the same can be said of each writing or directorial project.

Also….I think JJ will treat this new directorial project like he did Star Trek while working on SUPER 8. until star trek is done, he will ignore it, or work very little on it. JJ is not going to put Star Trek under the bus. He cares too much about any one project to do it to any of his projects, and besides, it would be a black mark if Star Trek the Sequal turned out crap, and part of it could be traced back to directing gaffs or whatever.

I never mentioned anti-Semitism, nor did I accuse the poster at #25 of being anti-Semitic. It’s just that VulcanFilmCritic’s assessment that 9/11 was an inside job is completely ridiculous and that usually the people who believe that also happen to believe that the Holocaust never happened, or happened differently from what the evidence tells us. It doesn’t neccessarily make them racist, but certainly incredibly ignorant.

We know for certain that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. That can’t be disputed.

42. Red Dead Ryan – You DO know that conspiracies sometimes DO occur, right? Or is the concept of conspiracy a conspiracy itself?

There’s an idea, Bob. The President could have a special unit that simply concocts conspiracies that never happened, to distract others from the real conspiracies.

As for the western show, I LOVE westerns, but I’ve rarely seen a good one on TV. Except Deadwood, which was utterly effing fantastic. I was so glad to see Timothy Olyphant go on to another western in Justified. It may be modern day, but it’s actually more of a traditional western than Deadwood.

The Earps have a lot of potential, but please don’t squander it by making Wyatt Earp 90210. The Earps weren’t exactly goody goodies, so I hope you’re doing your research. I was an editor for a publisher of western American history books, and worked on several (now out-of-print) books about Wyatt and his brothers. Wyatt especially was very opportunistic.

What I’m saying is, please give the show an edge. Westerns are one of my favorite genres but TV rarely does them well. Good luck. I’ll certainly give it a try.

I don’t think the issue is whether or not JFK was a the victim of a conspiracy; he clearly was, but which theory is true is still up for debate since most of the evidence is circumstantial, and perhaps coincidental.

What we do know is, JFK’s assassination was planned by multiple people, with Lee Harvey Oswald the disposable gunman himself shot dead by Jack Ruby to prevent the assassin from pointing fingers and exposing the conspirators.

My problem is with conspiracy THEORIES. A lot of them are completely bogus. Just because they fill in blanks, or offer an alternative to what is commonly believed doesn’t make it true. A lot of times, conspiracy theories are nothing more than false truths made up by people who for some reason or another, either are paranoid, or feel the need to have every single question answered.

Fun little artocle where Rex Tomb of the FBi says the reason Bin Laden was never listed as being wanted on the FBI web page for 911 is “because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Conspiracies are fun and all, make for some great movies and television (I mean, Cigarette Smoking Man—say no more), but people really need to figure out that the world is [usually] much more mundane and simplistic than we’d like to believe.

And piecing together people and events and assumed motives without hard evidence does not equal “the truth.” It’s a theory. Ask any good detective or scientist. They’ll tell you the same.

61. And just to point out One final thing on this subject… the official 911 report states that 911 was perpatrated by at least 19 hijackers working for a millionaire who heads a terrorist organization that the State Department says operates in 73 countries. This, itselff, is a massive conspiracy theory. Right?

My arguement stands, certainly after looking at the web paged you linked. The fact that you happen to believe a bunch of overzealous, glorified skeptics proves my point. The fact that it was flaunted by FOXNews also hammers it home.

#62.

Funny, I’ve read numerous books detailing Bin Laden’s involvement in 9/11. Also, I’m pretty sure he was Fugitive #1 on the FBI’s most wanted after the attacks. Indeed, he was a wanted man during the ’90’s, after the first WTC bombing.

Considering that there have been countless videos and audio recordings released from Bin Laden and his cohorts claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks, and that they recently scolded the president of Iran for his doubts over the attacks—well, what more evidence do you need? They seem to want us to believe them… maybe because—*gasp*—THEY ACTUALLY DID IT!

65. Then i guess the fbi never read the books you claim prove his involvement since he was never indicted for that specific crime. “No hard evidence…” says the FBI itself. How do you account for this if his involvement is indisputable?

“[A] procedural that follows a newly-elected president and his “secret Cabinet,” the government’s covert team of America’s most elite minds who investigate and protect the nation from strange occurrences and “conspiracy theory truths.”

Sounds like the mo of Dark Skies. Bring back Dark Skies instead and propel the series to today. They were hitting at some raw nerves / conspiracy theories then.

Buddy, buddy, think for a minute. Do you really want to do this on a public forum… where anyone can read your comments… because you’re kind of in a public position… in an industry… which has many producers and directors that are… Jewish and more likely not to agree with you?

Really sure you want to go that route? Tread lightly if you do.
Just a word of advice. The internet has a looong memory.

Nope. I’d say it’s a well proven conspiracy. There’s a lot of hard evidence proving Bin Laden to 9/11. For it to be theory, it would have had to be full of circumstantial evidence, with further unproven explanations filling in the gaps.

But what we had here was, a major event carried out by a relatively small group of terrorists. The hijackers identities had been verified by CIA and airport security after the attacks, and were connected to Bin Laden through documents found in Afghanistan. As well, the hijackers had been tracked through multiple countries by the CIA before 9/11, and Bin Laden had been fingered by Ramzi Yousef for financing his WTC truck bombing in ’93. Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the planner of 9/11, was also Ramzi Yousef’s uncle and began planning to use airliners as missiles soon after the WTC bombing. The hijackers had been seen taking flying lessons in Florida, a few months prior to 9/11. Their remains were discovered in the wreckage, verified by DNA testing.

Hey Bob. Yoy are right. AlQuida was the Conspiricy that brought the Twin Towers down and who hit the Pentagon. But the Passengers on Flight 93 Conspired to stop the Hijackers who were heading to Washington. But we Love those Conspiritors.

43: Thorny: Your snide comment was not appreciated and could not be further from the truth. You know nothing of me or my experiences working for the US Government since 1977. I would encourage you not to jump to conclusions about folks and matters which you may not fully comprehend. Feel free to keep your head firmly buried in the sand.

Well, I think it is fine that Star Trek producers, writers and directors are also working on other stuff. It keeps one fresh I presume, instead of working on one project only.

I do however feel that the Star Trek bandwagon to the stars, Star Trek II that is, should now be the main priority of all people involved. And somehow I don’t get the feeling it is, but I hope I’m wrong!

9-11 was done by one group. AlQuida. For someone to believe otherwise. Well. I think you can get where I am going with this.
I do believe that kennidy was Assasinated by others and not just Oswald. There is just to much that has not been explained.

—-I do believe that kennidy was Assasinated by others and not just Oswald. There is just to much that has not been explained.—-

The JFK assassination is the one conspiracy theory that does have compelling evidence. Or at least, in all of the back-and-forth with the anti-conspiracy advocates—Bugliosi, etc…—my impression is that, even if Oswald was the lone gunman, other people knew that he was going to assassinate the President. But, honestly, both sides have presented physical and ballistics arguments in support of their positions, so I really don’t know who to believe. But again, regardless of who actually shot JFK, the event certainly has all of the plot points of a conspiracy. I mean, if you were going to write it as a conspiracy, you’d write it pretty much like it happened—suspected assassin is, himself, assassinated. Followed by the death of the assassin’s assassin in prison, differing accounts from the public and the FBI, etc….

As a matter of pure logic, The fun part about this bin laden debate is that given the mujahideen’s established historical origins being tied to the CIA, and Bin Laden’s own specific family connections to the power elite of the US, even if you had video of him gift wrapping box cutters and airline tickets, it would not disprove higher involvement by a state.

@82. Bob, perhaps if you weren’t on record as saying pretty much everything the U.S. has done over the last 40 years was bad and/or had conspiracy implications, then I MIGHT entertain your latest arguments here. But dude, you have a record of pretty much blaming the U.S. government for everything, despite the fact that the U.S. let you emigrate and gave you the opportunity to make an outstanding career for yourself here.

A word of advice — stick to things you are good at, like movies and tv, because you political paranoia gig isn’t cutting it, my friend. In other words, don’t quit your day job. :-)

PS: I think all of us, Bob Orci included, should get back to Anthony’s guidance of not getting into political discussions here.

Consider this about the JFK murder: Lee Harvey Oswald is historically documented as attempting to express his social political beliefs to as many people as possible.

The biggest chance ever for Oswald to proclaim his ideology occurs after he is arrested in Dallas within 2 hours of the JFK shooting. Oswald understood he would not be allowed to talk directly to the entire world after he was moved to the county jail or during his trial.

So the only chance for him to espouse his beliefs and state his ideology was in the hallways at the police station in Dallas.

Yet he does not take advantage of this golden opportunity to proclaim his beliefs via the media to a worldwide audience. Instead, at every opportunity, he denies the charges against him, says he did not shoot anyone and claims he is just a patsy.

88. Me, a hollywood nut ball? I would hope the secret cabinet has bigger fish to fry!

Besides, exploring something does not mean you beleive it. I am, however, open to wherever the evidence goes, and i like to argue with people who have already made up their minds.

As far as 911 goes, half of the 911 commissioners themselves are on record as stating that we dont have the full story and that Norad lied to them for years, and they still don’t know why. Doesn’t mean bush and cheney did it. There could be a cover up for some other, legitimate national security reason. That should not however, stop us from asking questions to get the full story.

89. I think the term “government” is misunderstood. Certainly, LBJ and Hoover conspiring doesn’t mean the post office was in on it. I guess it is better to talk about abuses of power by individuals within government who co-opt the system during their tenure. I love this country. That is why i question it, as ThomasnJefferson advised.

In a nutshell: The US Government set itself up for 911. We sided with UBL against the Soviet Army in AFG and provided UBL and his cadre with high tech weapons. The defeated Soviets were forced out of AFG by the end of 1989. UBL and his forces are supposedly on our side. When Saddam of Iraq chose to invade Kuwait in 1990, UBL wanted to continue his role as a leader and defend his turf. The US chose to deny him that opportunity and turned him into a foe. Intermingled with these basic facts are various players at all levels trying to improve their personal agendas. The ensuing shitstorm continues and could easily have never occurred if not for the almighty $$$ and power plays.

I think that to Question everything is a good thing. keep the powers at be on there toes. But. Not everything that happens is a Conspiricy by the U.S. Govt. I mean. For years the U.S Govt has kept us all safe. I my self served in the U.S Navy and yes. i was in the orignaly in the persion Gulf War on a U.S Destroyer in the Gulf at the time Sadame invaded Kuait. I even have heard a few people say that the U.S Put Sadame up to that invasion. Lol.

#99. I did not know that. Looking forward to it.
What I would love to see is a major crossover of Both N.C.I.S and L.A and Hawaii Five O in a Big Time Manhunt Terroist Mystery
I wonder if Bob Orci would be up to that kind of task.

104 Amazing, you’ve done nothing but jumop to conclusions while I’ve done nothing but present food for thought for those so sure of themselves. Do you actually read what your write before you hit send?

Makes you wonder what would have happened if we hadn’t turned on UBL and accepted his help in defending Saudia Arabia. However wasn’t that Saudia Arabia’s call and they didn’t want UBL helping them and they wanted the US instead?

I also wonder now if we should have used the drone strikes to go after terrorists instead of going to war.

#116, That’s the one the Obama has done right. I wonder if pilots have to worry about their jobs? :) However, did we get some of the drone strike info from Guntameno Bay detainees? Or could we have still gotten alot of the terrorists without Guntameno Bay detainees?

#122. CIA and other opertives are the ones behind most of the Info. Also Captured Bad Guys have helped a lot as well. That is why that one American traitor has met his maker. Which pleases me to no end.

Again, presenting a blurry image and assumed facts based on loose connections does not equal the truth. It’s a theory. Now, you can beat on your chest and make yourself out to be some sort of guardian of truth, justice and the American way, but it still doesn’t make your theories factual.

Given the site’s ban on discussing politics, will we be allowed to discuss Bob’s “political conspiracy” show, or only half of it?

Unfortunately, we don’t have enough material to discuss only Trek, unless we check in only every couple of days, or weeks.

I can see people not wanting to engage in political discussions, or conspiracy theories – but one of the nice things about blogs is, you can choose which discussions you wish to engage (unless they’re censored). Given the (albeit gently) provocative nature of Trek, the ban on this site is ironic.

#127 I want a new Trek TV series and the sequel. However I think a new Trek TV series would have to get at least 10 Million viewers each week to justify staying on the other. They would have to come up with a really good one to get that many viewers. That would have to include the mainstream audience in addition to Trek fans.

It;s a little out there, but I love your openness in taking on these subjects, and we should all be as dogged in our examinations of those in authority. I recently loved watching you put Devin Faraci in his place on Twitter to. Keep it up, between sessions on Trek of course…

Definately the man on the left is NOT Bin Laden…. The nose looks to short and his face looks fuller than the photo on the right. Is this the photo (the one on the left) released after his “death”? Hmmm.

Well what is the belief that bin Laden was shot in the head and his body dumped at sea if it is not one massive leap-of-faith-with-everyone-holding-hands to a conclusion based on what they’ve been told by people who have been told?

If you ask me if I trust the information controlled and released by this or the previous administration, the answer is no. I do not. I may not know that any particular item is false, but that does not mean I accept it is true either.

I think Fast and Furious may be a Watergate or Iran-Contra level scandal, but it certainly isn’t being covered that way by most MSM outlets, which is part of the reason why they have lost so much credibility. The MSM does not convey to me by their actions that they have an interest in discovering and revealing what the truth is about much of anything. OR things have become so polarized that they simply refuse to investigate possible corruption, however serious, when it comes from those they like.

The image on the right shows a man with a broader forehead and fuller cheeks. If it wasn’t for the forehead, I might see how weight loss could account for the image on the right. The nose appears longer on the right as well, but if you measure it, it is almost the same length, and as a person ages, the nose can get longer or bigger.

“The agency actually did make a video purporting to show Osama bin Laden and his cronies sitting around a campfire swigging bottles of liquor and savoring their conquests with boys, one of the former CIA officers recalled, chuckling at the memory. The actors were drawn from “some of us darker-skinned employees,” he said.”

And sudddenly, posts like 66 are answered with, WE NEED A LOT MORE EVIDENCE!

#163 They made a Philly Experiment 2 that was just ok. They did it again and accidentally sent a Stealth Fighter back to Nazi Germany and they Nazi’s took over the US with it. They guy from the first one was married but she died and they had a son.

159. I love Penn and Teller! We’re actually making a movie about Magic right now and we might get to meet them as consultants. However, I’m sure given the hundreds of thousands of pages and hours of video relevant to this subject, you don’t believe that a late night comedy magic show with tits is the final and definitive word on this seminal event in history.

As for our little expermiment which dealt with none of the issue from the Penn and Teller piece, what narratvie are you seeing there? That was an experiment that everyone just participarted in. No answer is right. But the video you saw is the famous confession video you yourself referred to, and i thought a defender of the official story would appreciate mainstream media sources BBC, CNN and the Washington Post as admissable evidence. At what point do you get cursious about the idea that maybe you don’t have all the answers and that you actually have to work a little to understand your world?

#166. The First Movie was great. It stared Michael Pare who also did the movie Eddie and the Cruisers. He was also on The Greatest American Hero. The other 2 movies were ok. But the first was the best.

—-And sudddenly, posts like 66 are answered with, WE NEED A LOT MORE EVIDENCE!—-

Ohhhh, snap!!

But wait, why would Bin Laden take credit for it if he wasn’t involved? And even if he wasn’t involved with 9/11, but was involved with planning other attacks, what difference does it make? We’d still want him and his influence as a terrorist leader neutralized anyway, right?

The way I see it Bob is that we will never uncover all of the Conspiricy’s that are out there. But. Shedding Light on some would keep things on an even keel. Things like Kennedy and even Lincoln. But some are just plain out there like 9-11 was an inside job.

169. Or why deny it if he was, since we are already after him for other stuff? So which statement do we accept as real? His statement to BBC and CNN, or the found confession video which he presumably never wanted anyone to ever find? And if 18 out of 20 think the guy on the confession video isn’t him, what are we to make of the fact that the video is used by officialdom to conclude he did it?

No work needed to see the obvious. Granted, paranoia is more creative than logic (and a heck of a lot more fun), but ultimately it’s a negative, self-destructive way of thinking.

And as for those mainstream media sources you cited—aren’t you the one who usually puts down such sources in nearly every other subject? Yet, when they produce a piece of an article or video that supports your theories—ah! suddenly what the mainstream media says is A-Okay! Love the irony.

76. Quatio… You’ve gone from “It must be true, I read it on a web page!” to “Trust me, I worked for the government and I know!” in the course of an afternoon. These are two classic signs of a conspiracy true believer.

Still waiting for that conclusive evidence of JFK assassinated by J. Edgar Hooever, 9/11 really done by SPECTRE, and Steve Jobs was really a time-traveler from 2087. But I’m not holding my breath waiting.

I’ll keep my head out of the sand. You might try it sometime, come out of your Mom’s cellar. The fresh air will do you good.

What a great country! Where else can a kid from a foreign country migrate, get a college education, live a Hollywood dream, make millions of dollars, and then tell everyone in that country that their government is corrupt and mired in conspiracies?

Seriously, I am not being sarcastic. The strength of our democracy here is that we can absorb folks with wacky ideas and who think differently, and that is one of the things that makes us great!

@184: Not irony. The rules of a persuasion dialogue require that you be convinced by arguments made from your own premises. To present an argument to you from premises which you do not accept is merely arguing in a circle.

If anyone tries to prove a point to you from sources of information that you do not accept, then you could retort that the other guy is just begging the question and proved nothing.

@185. Couldn’t agree more, Thorny. A lot of people on these boards thought are more inclined to BELIEVE, and therefore they cherry-pick whatever pieces of evidence they can find to support their supposed “theories,” which are really just extensions of their belief system.

Hey, it’s still cherry-picking to prove outlandish theories, like Thorny said at #185. The burden of proof is on the theorists. Prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt (great movie by the way) and then we can all wallow in negativity with the rest of you guys (because you know we secretly want to be as cool as you, sitting in the shade, confident that not all is as it seems, and drinking a cool glass of dihydrogen monoxide).

I don’t see that much consequence in whether or not Bin Laden was involved with 9/11 or whether he was merely the leader of an international terrorist organization with ambitions and plans to kill as many Americans as possible, but I’m interested to see what you make of it all. And I am especially interested to see what you make of the JFK assassination.

A good reference here on conspiracy theories and the technique of cherry-picking:

How Not to Get Fooled by Conspiracy Theories

It’s surprisingly (and sadly) common that people who believe in a conspiracy theory claim that they have “done the research” and “considered all the evidence”, when in fact what they actually mean is “the author of this website has clearly done a lot of research on the subject, and it sounds credible to me.”

In other words, rather than doing any research themselves, they are projecting (what they perceive to be) the research made by the conspiracy theorist onto themselves.

(These people are not lying per se. They honestly believe that they have “considered all evidence”. What they don’t realize is that they have been presented with extremely biased evidence and claims, and hence their conclusion is not well-informed.)

In some cases what they mean may additionally be that they have read more than one conspiracy website, and this somehow constitutes “doing research”.

This is a very dangerous thing to do with respect to forming an informed opinion on the subject. When you read what a conspiracy theorist is writing, you are getting a highly-polished, carefully crafted, but ultimately extremely biased and narrow view of the whole picture. You are only seeing what the conspiracy theorist wants you to see.

Always remember that conspiracy theorists are seldom experts in the necessary fields to form informed and well-researched opinions (regardless of what the theorist himself or his pals claim) and that more often than not they have a strong bias. They may be quite skilled wordsmiths, being able to create alluring pieces of literature and video, and they are masters at making themselves sound convincing, but you should always try to see past the fancy words and bells and whistles.

Of course making some actual research is extremely laborious, especially on fields of science and technology which you have no expertise about. Fortunately you don’t have to do it all yourself.

The most important thing you should always do when presented with a new conspiracy theory or new “evidence” of existing theories is to search for debunking websites. Preferably several independent ones.

This doesn’t mean that you should automatically discard the conspiracy theory and believe the debunking. However, you shouldn’t be automatically biased against the debunking either (which is sadly common among people deluded into believing the conspiracy theories).

What I do mean with this is that you should form an informed opinion on all available information, not just the biased cherry-picked information you get from the conspiracy theorists.

Often conspiracy theory debunking will be better researched, better referenced, better informed, will contain less or no argumentative fallacies and just plain make more sense. The explanations will also much better conform to the Occam’s razor principle.

To some people the Occam’s razor principle in science may feel like an “easy and lazy way out” (of having to actually explain how things really are). However, that’s not at all what it is, in the vast majority of cases.

The Occam’s razor principle is, simply put: If there are two suggested explanations for the same phenomenon, the simpler explanation is more preferable (as it tends to be more likely the true explanation).

There’s another form for the principle: If there are two suggested explanations of about the same complexity, the explanation which covers a larger amount of evidence is more preferable. (To make the other explanation also cover the additional evidence it would have to be made more complicated than necessary.)

1956. Great. so let use mr. O’s razor to explain our little experiment above. What is the simplest explanation for th fact that 90 percent of those in our informal survey think the right handed, riing wearing confession video bin laden is not bin laden. They are all wrong and it is bin laden, albeit a right handed one with a ring? Or it is not Bin laden?

and let’s not forget o’s razor has to be the simplest explanation that explains THE MOST of the AVAILABLE EVIDENCE. So theory that most simply also explains why the FBI says obl left handed and video one is right handed is the one conforming to mr. O.

Why is it so hard to answer this question with a straight answer? This little test presupposed no beleif whatsoever. Even if the CIA faked a confession video, it doesn’t mean they aren’t merely trying to frame a guilty man.

So, care to take a side? Bad hair day is another way of saying you think the simplest explanation is that it is him and 18 of 20 people just don’t recognize him as him, right? What do you think Mr. O would make of your conclusion?

@200. Because I am wise to your technique of using the cherry-picking one piece of information that happens to support your belief system to try to enlist a response from me that you can then use to prop up your Red Herring argument.

To humor you though, I will agree that the pictures don’t match very well. There, so add me to your poll.

Now, will you answer my question — do you thing the U.S. Government faked the Bin Laded DNA tests?

Look, since some of you here haven’t picked up a book since high school, we’ll make it easy for you. Go to youtube and type in the words “secret service stand down”. A 2:56 long clip will show the secret service agents being pulled off their positions on the president’s limo just before it left Love Field on November 22, 1963. Now, neither Oswald or the Mafia had the authority to do that, and it’s well documented that JFK never interfered with his secret service detail. So, who is left to have ordered the agents away from protecting JFK?

What does your much vaunted Occam’s Razor have you conclude about this little slice of reality?

Though, I would argue against assuming Bin Laden to be a rational actor and then arguing, “Well, why else would he deny it?”

Who knows what was going on inside his mind. Maybe he got scared for a bit, or maybe he and those close to him were vulnerable and he wanted to wait until they were more secure before admitting to his involvement in 9/11. Or maybe something unfathomably stupid. The fact that this being an Islamist Jihadi terrorist with the stated goal of indiscriminately killing as many Americans as possible disqualifies his state of mind from conforming to some rational standard. And while it may be a curiosity to examine such inconsistencies, I think that you should put them in their proper context and offer some moral justification for focusing on them.

MJ, I wasn’t talking about you. As to your link at 209, that is a bald-faced lie. Kennedy NEVER gave such an order. Why do you think the young secret service agent who has been called off the limo keeps raising his hands in puzzlement as to why he’s being called off?

If Kennedy had ever given that order, there would never have been such confusion/disorder as the limousine motorcade was about to embark upon it’s route.

They don’t know what stand downs and false flags are, Harry. Hell, Seymour Hersh reported on a recent false flag suggested by Dick Cheney, i.e., to dress up SEALS as Iranians and attack our own ships so that we could start a conflict with Iran.

Just think about that for a second. Whether or not it was ever done. Just think about the level of evil that you have to be comfortable with to think up such things as acceptable policy steps to take.

The Pentagon consultant told me, “We’ve had wonderful results in the Horn of Africa with the use of surrogates and false flags—basic counterintelligence and counter-insurgency tactics. And we’re beginning to tie them in knots in Afghanistan. But the White House is going to kill the program if they use it to go after Iran. It’s one thing to engage in selective strikes and assassinations in Waziristan and another in Iran. The White House believes that one size fits all, but the legal issues surrounding extrajudicial killings in Waziristan are less of a problem because Al Qaeda and the Taliban cross the border into Afghanistan and back again, often with U.S. and NATO forces in hot pursuit. The situation is not nearly as clear in the Iranian case. All the considerations—judicial, strategic, and political—are different in Iran.”

He added, “There is huge opposition inside the intelligence community to the idea of waging a covert war inside Iran, and using Baluchis and Ahwazis as surrogates. The leaders of our Special Operations community all have remarkable physical courage, but they are less likely to voice their opposition to policy. Iran is not Waziristan.”

A Gallup poll taken last November, before the N.I.E. was made public, found that seventy-three per cent of those surveyed thought that the United States should use economic action and diplomacy to stop Iran’s nuclear program, while only eighteen per cent favored direct military action. Republicans were twice as likely as Democrats to endorse a military strike. Weariness with the war in Iraq has undoubtedly affected the public’s tolerance for an attack on Iran. This mood could change quickly, however. The potential for escalation became clear in early January, when five Iranian patrol boats, believed to be under the command of the Revolutionary Guard, made a series of aggressive moves toward three Navy warships sailing through the Strait of Hormuz. Initial reports of the incident made public by the Pentagon press office said that the Iranians had transmitted threats, over ship-to-ship radio, to “explode” the American ships. At a White House news conference, the President, on the day he left for an eight-day trip to the Middle East, called the incident “provocative” and “dangerous,” and there was, very briefly, a sense of crisis and of outrage at Iran. “TWO MINUTES FROM WAR” was the headline in one British newspaper.

The crisis was quickly defused by Vice-Admiral Kevin Cosgriff, the commander of U.S. naval forces in the region. No warning shots were fired, the Admiral told the Pentagon press corps on January 7th, via teleconference from his headquarters, in Bahrain. “Yes, it’s more serious than we have seen, but, to put it in context, we do interact with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and their Navy regularly,” Cosgriff said. “I didn’t get the sense from the reports I was receiving that there was a sense of being afraid of these five boats.”

Admiral Cosgriff’s caution was well founded: within a week, the Pentagon acknowledged that it could not positively identify the Iranian boats as the source of the ominous radio transmission, and press reports suggested that it had instead come from a prankster long known for sending fake messages in the region. Nonetheless, Cosgriff’s demeanor angered Cheney, according to the former senior intelligence official. But a lesson was learned in the incident: The public had supported the idea of retaliation, and was even asking why the U.S. didn’t do more. The former official said that, a few weeks later, a meeting took place in the Vice-President’s office. “The subject was how to create a casus belli between Tehran and Washington,” he said.

Unfortunately I have to link to a site some of you will reject utterly, but it has the transcript for the video of Hersh on the casus belli plan which video is no longer available. But here’s the words:

185 – Thorny: I am an independent thinker, not a CT. Working for UNCLE can provide a bit more insight. The remainder of your hyperbole isn’t worthy of rebuttal.

215 – dmduncan: Seymour Hersh can be credited with many worthy investigative works. He also has a reputation for being somewhat gullible and publishing quickly without nailing down his resources or checking facts. Not picking a fight, just stating a general consensus relative to the career of SH.

@218. Quatio — Agreed on Seymour Hersh. His resume includes outstanding investigative journalism like exposing the Israeli nuke programs, but also covers work where he fell into the trap of selective info as in his Dark Side of Camelot book (not that Kennedy wasn’t a walking hard-on and a hypocrite, but his book is one-dimensional in focusing on the negative). He’s hit and miss.

213 – Harry Ballz: You called it as it was. Secret Service agent Clint Hill, whose permanent assignment was to protect Jacqueline Kennedy, was the only SS agent who reacted in a meaningful manner during the Dealy Plaza shooting. In the Zapruder film, agent Hill can be seen running onto the rear step bumper of the JFK limo from the SS followup car and preventing Mrs. Kennedy from continuing to climb onto the trunk of the limo and pushing her back into the rear seat. SS agent Hill is also clearly visible in filmed footage earlier that day in Dallas riding on the left rear step bumper of the presidential limo in at least two separate locations and instances during the parade route through downtown Dallas.

Evidently Mr. Hill was not aware of the supposed “keep off” order from JFK.

“The agents hope their book will put an end to the ‘conspiracy theory industry’ which has grown up around Mr Kennedy’s assassination.
Ex-agent Gerald Blaine said: ‘Most of history today has been written by what I call a cottage industry called ‘conspiracy’. ‘If we didn’t speak up and give a balance to this, history would never know exactly what happened.’ ”

I guess they are all lying, right? No doubt the CIA has threatened their families unless the tow the line here. LOL

You did. Thank you. You agreed that the video that is used by most people to claim that obl admitted to the attacks does not in fact appear to be bin laden. Seems like a rather siginificant admission you just made. Are you some kinda crazy truther or something?;)

As for DNA, are you referring to DNA test confirming that OBL was the man killed by Seal Six?

If so, I don’t believe it was faked. I am agnostic. I have no evidence that it was. I am, however, open to evidence either way. I am sure you are asking because even you found it odd that when we finally caught the darth vader of the world, we didn’t bother to prove it independently to anybody.

@223. LOL. Well, again, I said that that “that particular” video comparison you are making is one that does match up very well in just looking at the guy’s appearance. You did do a very god job in SELECTING that particular comparison to make your point — I give you kudos for that!

I also give you credit you for not claiming the DNA evidence was faked.

a) Both pictures are of Bin Laden. The one on the left is a still from a video, while the one on the right is a photograph.

b) The fact that he denied responsibility for 9/11 doesn’t disprove his involvement. I’m thinking he might have done this to mess with the American psyche, which was severely traumatized after the attacks. I think Bin Laden understood the nature of the American government and how it operates and felt that America would not only invade Afghanistan, but also an Arab country, where anti-American sentiment would enflame.Which did end up occurring with the Iraq invasion. He also understood that the American people would rally behind their government, even if that government would make serious mistakes or do things that would make it violate their own beliefs and laws, such as waterboarding, and holding Al Queda suspects without Miranda rights.

Another of his goals was to have America bleeding economically by instilling fear into airline passengers, which in turn resulted in radical increases in airline security and inconvenience. Also, the fact that neither Al Queda nor the Taliban have been defeated is a testament to Bin Laden and his ideology. Afghanistan has become the same trap that resulted in the downfall of the U.S.S.R. Ironically, the same enemy that attacked the U.S was once an ally that helped defeat America’s rival. And even though that Bin Laden is dead, the same can’t be said for his ideology.

c) As I just stated, Bin Laden and his mujahedeen, as well as the Taliban, were allies of the U.S and its fight against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Bin Laden was armed and financed by the U.S, which inadvertantly helped him to create Al Queda, and indirectly aided him in attacking the U.S when the American government helped install the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan.

d) Bin Laden is dead. Even though we haven’t directly been given proof of this, I have to think no one in the U.S government would be foolish/dishonest enough to stage it and risk having a Bin Laden tape surfacing around the time of the next presidential election and embarrassing the current administration. I believe he’s dead, but I don’t believe he was buried at sea. I think that was one of his bodyguards killed in the raid in Pakistan who was dumped in the Arabian Sea. Bin Laden’s body is probably preserved in a tank in some underground chamber, to be shown at a later date to the public once the war in Afghanistan is over.

Also, Occam’s Razor is a guideline, not a debate ending proof. It’s just an inductive argument (plausible, but weak) that may sometimes be useful, but could just as easily obstruct knowledge and understanding by assuming that no anomaly is present when one really is. And even when the explanation is simplest and covers all the available evidence, Occam’s Razor could STILL be giving you the wrong explanation, so it should be used with caution, and any answers you get from it need to be proved by more robust methods.

“215 – dmduncan: Seymour Hersh can be credited with many worthy investigative works. He also has a reputation for being somewhat gullible and publishing quickly without nailing down his resources or checking facts. Not picking a fight, just stating a general consensus relative to the career of SH.”

Well, but that becomes a smear against Hersh because what I heard you say is that he may be guilty of that in this particular instance without giving evidence to support that he is in fact. So that trades on gullibility as well. Not picking a fight either, just pointing that out. And that also describes most human beings on the planet at least during some time of their lives, almost certainly during every election cycle when they become voters, and who are rational enough at other times. But the false flags he references predate Seymour Hersh. False flags are a very basic and well taught tactic. The question is: Are WE targets of them without knowing it? I wish I could say there was more curiosity about that question from the MSM because public sentiment is a coveted prize that permits powerful people to do anything they want if they can get it going in their favor.

So I think Hersh was being reliable here; I mean, Hersh is talking about the same administration that sold the country on WMDs being in Iraq, and that we had to get them before it was too late. And we believed.

@225 “I believe he’s dead, but I don’t believe he was buried at sea. I think that was one of his bodyguards killed in the raid in Pakistan who was dumped in the Arabian Sea. Bin Laden’s body is probably preserved in a tank in some underground chamber, to be shown at a later date to the public once the war in Afghanistan is over.”

This idea would make a great start for a Bin Laden zombie or Frankenstein type horror movie. “The Reanimation of Bin Laden” or “Al Qaeda Zombie Attack” come to mind. :-)

224. i see. so you actually avoided taking a position on what O’s razor would say. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were taking a position. You can’t answer a sinmple question directly.

a) Both pictures are of Bin Laden. The one on the left is a still from a video, while the one on the right is a photograph.

***

Those noses are completely different looking among other things. I have some artistic training and talent. There’s no way I would get the same nose drawing from the left picture that bin Laden has on the right. Do a point by point comparison all the way down and across and there’s no way those two match up.

@228. Occam’s razor has nothing to with cherry-picking one set of photos/video which in a vacuum supposedly prove a point. Occam’s razor detailed definition:

“If there are two suggested explanations of about the same complexity, the explanation which covers a larger amount of evidence is more preferable. (To make the other explanation also cover the additional evidence it would have to be made more complicated than necessary.)”

So given their is preponderance of evidence that OBL was responsible, you do not get credit for doing one single subjective comparison of photos/videos in which Bin Laden looks a bit different (and his appearance definitely changed over time due to sickness and age) for then saying that this disproved his involvement.

231. I’ve already said that this little experiment does not prove or disporve respnosibility. You are starting from a conclusion (that obl was responsible) and having your belief not even allow you to be honest with your own reaction to this expermiment, which I’ve already stipulated does not prove or disporve complicity. I didn’t argue that either picture was obl. Nonetheless, 18 of 20 said right is obl and left is not. that is an OBJECTIVE FACT.

I think many of you are missing a bigger point here, I won’t say who I think those individuals are, I will only try to convey my thoughts in as detailed and common a faculty as possible…

The point behind conspiracy “theories” is, we as individuals in a free-thinking society have a responsibility to stand up to what would be shoved down our throats as the “official story” in any given situation that might otherwise raise a suspicious eyebrow were we NOT free thinkers. That without those few (though there’s lots of us) individuals that see the holes in stories and problems with statements from officials in high capacities with fancy hats and badges, are the ones that keep things on a straight and narrow sometimes, keeping us as a society from possibly plunging into some quasi-fascist society where everyone “hears and obeys” whatever line of garbage is thrown at us, and thus prevents an already corrupt and abusive government from simply doing whatever the hell they want with impunity because they know the sheep will sleep (and for those of you that think we are already a fascist society because you simply don’t like President ‘enter name here’, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you odn’t know what fascism is).

The folks that are constantly questioning what is going on and trying to poke holes in the official word from our government or story let out by “local media news outlet A or B” do so because they love this country, and hate people that swear oaths to uphold the law then don’t, not necessarily because they’re crazy (though that’s always a possiblity), and I like to think without them some officials would get away with a lot more than they probably already do. How many times does the news need to report “establishment-puppet A was caught with an underage intern” or “establishment-puppet b is under investigation for tax fraud” for everyone to finally agree, conspiracy theories are sometimes only theories because some politician refuses to make it “official”?

And while I’m here, it being a conspiracy ‘theory’ doesn’t make it NOT true, only unproven to date. Einstein believed in the ‘theory’ of relativity, or was that just a conspiracy…

As far as I’m concerned, it’s the conspiracy theorists amongst us that truly have their minds and eyes open (albeit sometimes a bit too wide), and those that buy into everything they’re told that are the ignorant amongst us.

“Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” – Mr. Spock

I also thought the nose on the left photo didn’t match the right, but it was obscured by shadows and movement-blur. And the angles aren’t exactly the same either. So it’s unlikely to be a fake, since there are much better fake photos on the web.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Because often what appears to be fake can be real, just as what often appears to be real can be fake.

Look at these pictures of Steve Jobs, one from about 7 years ago when he was a bit younger and was just diagnosed with cancer, and one more recent photo where he is older and been through cancer and other healthy problems. Notice that his nose looks larger and his chin wider in the latter photograph.

@234 “Because why would anyone fake it? I also thought the nose on the left photo didn’t match the right, but it was obscured by shadows and movement-blur. And the angles aren’t exactly the same either. So it’s unlikely to be a fake, since there are much better fake photos on the web.”

Also, I’m willing to acknowledge the awfully slim possibility that the 9/11 attacks were staged by the American government to justify it’s invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

But here’s why I don’t believe that:

Numerous phone calls from passengers and flight attendents to air control operators describing the hijackers as Middle Eastern/Arab yelling and screaming in Arabic or English with an Arab accent.

Bone fragments containing DNA evidence of the suicide pilots and/or hijackers recovered from buildings across the street from the World Trade Center, in the pile, at the Pentagon, or in the Pennsylvania field.

Photos of the hijackers arriving at the airports.

No evidence of explosives in the wreckage of the WTC. Unlike in ’93, or the Oklahoma City bombing, where chemical residue and bomb fragments were found.

Governments are inept at keeping secrets for long periods of time, as someone would most likely have revealed the plot, advertantly or inadvertantly. The Bush administration never struck me as competent in this regard. They couldn’t keep neither Guantanamo Bay, nor Abu Graib a secret.

And if 9/11 was staged, it would be the biggest scam in history. The media would be just as guilty as the government.

@233 “Einstein believed in the ‘theory’ of relativity, or was that just a conspiracy…”

No, Einstein developed the theory of relativity and the mathematics to support it, and then in the years following scientists and astrophysicists, following the “scientific method,” validated the theory. He did not say, “hey I believe in this theory, let me tell you about it.”

” “Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” – Mr. Spock ”

Another great example of misinformation. Sherlock Holmes, in Arthur Conan Dolye’s work was the originator of this quote…not Star Trek. LOL

Well, regardless of motivation that’s not evidence the two are the same.

When I look at it with my eye the evidence says not the same. Even though the one on the left is fuzzier the face does not have the same proportions, and if the photo of Bin Laden on the right were equally fuzzy it wouldn’t look like the one on the left.

This is actually something you could demonstrate, given the time and software, because the two men are in reasonably similar postures to offer enough points of comparison. I feel quite comfortable saying that if it was intended that I should believe that those pics are of the same man, then I would NOT believe what was intended.

And I came to that conclusion strictly on the basis of the pictures themselves, not knowing where Bob was going with his little experiment.

All of this logic, debate, and discussion with Bob Orci is the most we’ve heard from him before in one sitting. I believe him to be an intelligent and thoughtful individual.

So perhaps then he would do us a favor and explain how he came up with the implausible idea that Spock could actually SEE Vulcan imploding from Delta Vega and why Nero could be sure that he would actually be watching?

Wouldn’t the best way to insure an enemy will see your revenge is to make him watch it on your view screen instead of risking him being on the wrong side of the planet in a cave?

(Just thought this might ACTUALLY get us back on the subject of Star Trek)

I would also add, that while Einstein’s theory of relativity remains intact for now, it is being challenged by current day scientists who have apparently discovered that some forms of radiation MIGHT be able to travel faster than the speed of light, as well as some particles. Nothing has been proven yet, as those tests have not been verified, or fully understood.

@246. Yes, and they are using the scientific method to evaluate this, which involves having other scientists try to repeat the experiment to see if they get the same results. That is how real research works – nobody is cherry-picking results with that activity or using selective information.

When he developed his theory, it was just that, a theory, regardless whether or not he had the math to support it. It falls upon the scientific community to validate his postulations, this is known as (a part of) the scientific method. The point I was trying to make was, he didn’t come up with the “facts” of relativity… Just as in when a conspiracy theorist makes a statement, it falls upon him or the rest of the conspiracy theory community to either help prove or disprove the theory. Einstein himself called it the “theory” or relativity.

And as far as the Spock quote, I never said he invented it, nor did I insinuate it, I implied he SPOKE it, as indicated by the QUOTE marks both before and after it, as he did in Star Trek IX…that’s why it’s a quote.

Not discounting your statements, but the lighting is different in both pictures, and the blurry photo looks like it has Bin Laden smiling or laughing, which might account for the wider nose being raised a bit.

Also, several tapes of Bin Laden released after 9/11 have him appearing somewhat pale, a possible result of the stress he was under. He looked a bit pale in the blurry photo, but then again it could be the lighting.

Both photos are consistent, but the nose seems to be different. The left photo appears to have been taken after 9/11, possibly a clip from the video where he was laughing at the destruction he caused. And the one on the right appears to have been taken a few months prior to September 11 2001 because of the wall behind him which appears to be decorated with a map or something.

@ 226: dmduncan – Point taken and understood, but I had not read the SH article you reference, so I was not attacking it directly.

@ 233: Green-Blooded-Bastard – I’ll drink to all that. Very nice looking guitars, are you the luthier-owner? My two pride and joys are a `69 LP Custom BB FW (original owner) and a Kubicki/Richardson Tele, stained by Wayne Jarrett back in `87. Three active EMG’s, 3 mini toggles and ebony neck with graphite nut. One of the last on hand as he had moved to producing the Factor bass guitars.

I took a look at the photos you linked to (whom I STRONGLY believe to be two entirely different people), and I’ve seen the video from which those photos came from, and if I’m not mistaken, the guy in the video (fake Osama) writes with his right hand, and Osama Bin Laden is believed to be a lefty.

Hi, thanks! Yes, I have been a builder for nearly 30 years. I made all of those and a sh*t-ton more not posted. Sounds like you have a very nice collection. I wish I could say I have a vintage this or that, but most of the guitars hanging from my walls were built by me simply because I wanted tonal variations I couldn’t find in a store. Had I my druthers, I would find myself a nice fretless wonder too. I truly believe it’s tone to be the sound heaven makes when the pearly gates open to receive a soul!

Well, when I think about it, he was holding the pen in his right hand. It’s possible he’s ambidextrous as he’s been seen walking with canes in both hands, but some attribute this to an injury he received on the left arm. Either way, it’s a discussion I’m sure will never end, however moot since the f**ker’s dead (supposedly LOL).

#50 – “Okay. We will make the damn movie then!;)”
Excellent! Good man. Carry on!…:)

#229 boborci – “i see. so you actually avoided taking a position on what O’s razor would say. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were taking a position. You can’t answer a simple question directly.”

Seriously, though, I thought Bob’s exercise in showing the two photographs and getting people to identify the person(s), was to show how difficult it can be to be a witness. I have seen a number of different pictures of OBL over time and frankly, it is hard to tell him from others around him or whether the pictures are actually OBL or someone made to look like him. I could not swear under oath if a person I saw, was necessarily the same as the person(s) in both of those photographs, yet these are the pictures that have repeatedly circled the globe for some years and news media and others have reiterated that the person in the pictures is Osama Bin Laden.

It seemed odd, that with the kind of camera technology available, that all we’d been seeing were these kinds of fuzzy images. Almost makes one think that there might be a conspiracy afoot?…;) @MJ That does not necessarily mean that there is a conspiracy going on. It is just people don’t feel they are always being told the total truth, and guess what, sometimes it turns out that they haven’t.

#195 MJ – As Pike asked Kirk, “And you know all this? How?” I am now asking you the same question.

However, I do suspect you are making some massive assumptions here. After all, I don’t believe any of us know exactly how much research even one person here, Bob Orci, has done on the various topics under discussion right now.

Well, for Bin Laden at least, the war on terror was as much a propaganda war as it was a combat one. It’s possible Bin Laden was exaggerating or even faking his injuries to promote his “warrior” image.

But yeah, he’s dead and it really doesn’t matter. But I think we’ve all watched too much “CSI” over the years! ;-)

Is Mr. Bob Orci, talking about Trek sequel, anyway?… I remembered this article of collider posted on September 15, 2009…

“…..But now, we have solid talk from the filmmakers themselves about what a sequel to the successful series reboot, with director J.J. Abrams and writer Roberto Orci talking about the follow up. Perhaps the most surprising news is some of the directions discussed for the next film, which could involve an exploration of current themes of terrorism and politicized war, according to Orci, saying “We’re trying to keep it as up-to-date and as reflective of what’s going on today as possible. So that’s one thing, to make it reflect the things that we are all dealing with today“

I don’t have a strong opinion on any CT – but I do think it incredibly naive to believe that people in the most powerful positions do not consider all sorts of means for achieving their ends; or that most of the same power wielders would let morality stand in the way of achieving their goals – goals they can justify, to themselves, as being in the country’s best interest.

@257 “However, I do suspect you are making some massive assumptions here. After all, I don’t believe any of us know exactly how much research even one person here, Bob Orci, has done on the various topics under discussion right now.”

Well you know, given Orci is singing all these deals for movies and tv series every month, and given your idea here that maybe he is doing massive amounts of research on these conspiracies — YES, it is all making sense to me now — that is why the Star Trek sequel is going to be 2 years late….the poor guy has no time left for Trek given all his media deals and his conspiracy theory research.

Hey Bob Orci, congratulations on selling the new pilot. Now could you get best selling author Annie Jacobsen (“Area 51″) to agree that she was duped by a government source to write that Roswell was a Russian hoax that had Dr. Josef Mengele (yes, that one) to create alien like children? Link.

231. i dont think you are truly undewrstand the evidence I am presenting. the image from the video I linked to is not some random video, it is THE VIDEO that everybody claimed proved he did it because he confessed. A still from that video was the first obl cover on newsweek proclaiming his guilt I did not choose to highlight that video, OFFICIALDOM did.

There’s quite a few videos and still photos of the hijackers going through airport security, plus eyewitness testimony of airline workers who remembered seeing them. NatGeo did a excellent job presenting the evidence in their “Inside 9/11″ documentaries.

Of course, you could say that NatGeo and the airlines were in on the conspiracy as well… but the more people involved the greater risk of something going awry. Same goes for the Moon Landing conspiracy. If the White House couldn’t keep a simple hotel break-in involving a dozen or so conspirators a secret, what chance does one involving hundreds if not thousands of people being successful?

Is it reasonable to say that most of us live in a house or apartment somewhere, wake up in the morning, go to work, come home, watch some tv and go to bed… and really think we have any idea what is going on in that big world out there? We watch the news, we read newspapers and books, and so forth, but then whatever we know is just second-hand information. It seems to me that the governments of the world, the people who inhabit the governments, are literally living in another world, which often does not include the rest of us ordinary folk. Billions of humans are being dragged through history essentially by a minority of other humans. We have seen political figures from all over the world exposed as reckless, conniving, self-serving, despicable people.
I think it is because of such scandalous beings that some of us are always picking their stories apart, looking for holes, looking for contradictions, looking for the secrets that we expect to find.
The very notion of conspiracy theory is based on the fact that a good number of us simply don’t trust those in positions of authority, we don’t believe them, we expect to find out they’ve lied to us. Obviously, not everyone sees conspiracy everywhere, but we cannot deny that we have been lied to and exploited so many times throughout history that it should cause us to be vigilant.

Having said that, I’ll throw you theorists a bone and say that there could be something to the JFK assassination simply because a small number of people could have pulled it off. Plus, it being 1963 and not having a security cam on every corner, makes it more possible.

And now we have ATF Fast and Furious; the only question is why? I could hazard a guess that the administration was going to use the violence created by those guns to push some political objective, but I don’t know.

So lumping all conspiracy theories together as nonsense is a little like judging people’s character based on race. There is no easy brainless solution that saves you the trouble of having to read and make judgement calls for each theory, in the same way that you have to take each person as an individual.

@268 / Bob Orci: “Post a single phioo of hijackers arriving at departure airports. You wont be able to because they dont exist.”

@275 / Vultan: “Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLEqjpHVPhM There’s quite a few videos and still photos of the hijackers going through airport security, plus eyewitness testimony of airline workers who remembered seeing them. NatGeo did a excellent job presenting the evidence in their “Inside 9/11″ documentaries

Man, I just sampled some of this thread.
You people make my head hurt. How the HECK (not my original choice of exclamatory) did we get from frustration over the delay on the sequel to JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theories??

I thought this website was supposed to be about Star Trek. I have always admired you, Mr. Orci. You even answered one of my questions long ago, which was a thrill for me. However, I find it troublesome to learn this much about your personal beliefs. I’d much rather talk about Star Trek, the new movie, when it might be coming out, if Pike will be back, and those sorts of things. No disrespect intended at all, as I admire you a great deal AND Anthony…but Anthony has waned people and so on for stating such beliefs on here. He reminds them that this is a Star Trek site.

In the immortal words of Herman Cain, “I have no facts to back this up, but…”

I truly believe that 9/11 was a very human and inevitible consequence of a number of factors. I do not believe most of the participants knew that there was a plan to do what happened:

1) The GOP will do anything for power.

2) The GOP will ignore anything, if it helps them get power.

3) George W. Bush could care less.

4) The CIA and FBI were more interested in their own power than in protecting America. Not only did both know who bin Laden was, but they knew there was a plot. They simply did not compare notes to see how far along it was.

5) The Sa’ud family could care less. They are criminals.

6) The Sa’ud family wants to perpetuate its own power, and is willing to ignore one nutty member of a very wealthy and powerful family named bin Laden.

7) The GOP wants what the Sa’ud family has, namely power in the form of oil.

8) The DEMS had their eyes on 2004. They wanted power.

9) Osama bin Laden is an end product of countless generations of males ignoring all things but themselves. They want power. They justify murder, in fact they embrace violence as a meaningful course. They blame the US for a percieved lack of power.

and…

10) Very little has changed in 10 years. Homeland Security is an ineffective and very expensive distraction.

#81: “As a matter of pure logic, The fun part about this bin laden debate is that given the mujahideen’s established historical origins being tied to the CIA, and Bin Laden’s own specific family connections to the power elite of the US, even if you had video of him gift wrapping box cutters and airline tickets, it would not disprove higher involvement by a state.”

First of all, I loved the new “Star Trek” film. Now I would like your opinion on something. Bob, I pay special attention to the term “power elite” that you use. If you want to distinguish between classes within the United States, do you realize that as a member of the Hollywood/entertainment class you are part of a “power elite” class as well that is above most of us? Perhaps the Occupy movement should come to Hollywood and specifically target you and your class for having more than the rest of us. Times are tough, but Hollywood seems to be running along just fine. Why not share your wealth?

291. True. Im sure i am getting some leeway. On tbe other hand, the thread we are on is about conspiracy shows.

Also, i m just trying to moderate a thought provoking debate and creative session on this subject. As stated above, this discussion is not necessarily an endorsement of any belief. Nor have i propsed any theory.

Something like the Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense (Hellboy)? But all human characters, i.e., not that far out?

Is the show intended to range across ALL types of conspiracy, some paranormal and some NOT?

Bruce Greenwood would have been great. I’m struggling to think of another actor I would expect to see in a TV series who creates the same epic impression as Greenwood. That guy could make the small screen look much bigger.

As I think we’ve seen on this thread, it will instead be the usual imaginary liberal media villains: the military, secret fascist government agencies, business moguls, capitalism, christian fanatics, Rush Limbaugh stand-ins, etc.

Now it’s entirely possible this Secret Cabinet could be fighting vampires and zombies and aliens and alien vampire zombies. But if it’s at all supposed to be “realistic”, PLEASE tell me I’m wrong. Since you seem to be a Truther, it seems pretty clear I’m right.

…when did Trekmovie.com become conspiracytheorydiscussionswithmrOrci.com?? Nice the see Mr Orci on here, could we have a little Trek talk? Have you guys sorted out the movie title issue yet Bob? Numbers or no numbers …hum….? Also, will Michael score the movie again (loved his soundtrack and the theme).

It looks more like him in the video from the side while he’s talking. I agree that the still photos do not look alike, but you have to admit that the left photo is quite blurry. The difference in appearance could be due to the blurriness, the angle of his head, and maybe he’d lost weight in the right photo.

Then again, the video could have been a forgery to frame Bin Laden, but as you said they might have been framing a guilty man for political convenience.

As for the ring, who knows. Seal Team 6 said they found adult videos and liquor at his compound, so maybe OBL didn’t strictly abide certain Islamic laws (like Conservative Christians and Orthodox Jews often don’t strictly abide certain laws of their respective religions.) Or maybe the Seal Team 6 report was also a frame-job for political convenience. Who knows. As with all of these conspiracy theories, there’s always just enough inconsistency to raise (or spin into) suspicion, but never enough to support a solid conclusion affirming the conspiracy theory:

Well, a lot of folks, politicians in particular, often present a wholesome, moralistic version of themselves for the public to consume, and for their followers, but in private, contradict themselves with behaviours and actions that are contrary to what they wanted their audience to believe.

And its entirely possible that the U.S framed a guilty man, who also happened to frame himself at the same time. Bin Laden could very well have violated the very same Sharia Laws that he espoused, while the American government and military could have also added to that with propaganda of their own.

I think both happened. I think that Bin Laden had contradicted himself from time to time, (as we all do; we’re human and it’s impossible to stay consistent 100% of the time) while the U.S government recognized Bin Laden’s appeal and power to his followers and felt the best way to truly kill him was to kill his persona, as well as his person.

Yes, get him back, my favorite scene in the movie was when Kirk and McCoy are going up to the Enterprise in the shuttle and they see it for the first time fully built and “Enterprising Young Men” is playing in the backround.

Thanks for the repsonse Bob. So…..is the title issue, an issue? I mean calling it Star trek 2 will start the numbering trend. However calling it Star Trek ‘TITLE’ makes that connection with the Next Gen movies, which some may want to avoid. Such a little thing, such consequences…

As I mentioned on #70, the series Dark Skies was a Secret Cabinet composed of high ranking government officials, the lead (played by the late great J.T. Walsh) having been put in place by Truman since Roswell.

As it involves the beginning of this “Cabinet” known as Majestic-12 (MJ12 being a conspiracy theory by itself), the story evolves over decades discussing their own unique “truth” of various conspiracy theories flavored with fiction used as a metaphor for the set decoration. Even the creators of the show admit “they were speculated as being tools for government disinformation though it was better then presenting the show as truthful and being sued for a millennium”. As per the writers/creators on their Commentary, they also encountered some whistleblowers, though some ended up washed up on the California beach. This is heavy for a Hollywood scifi show.

They go on saying as you say Bob on #303, “Conspiracies exist, but not all of them are bad”. Some people protect our backs in whatever way they can, and they can as they are above the government. I may not believe everything they presented, but they sure made a very strong case for all these theories explained, albeit some metaphorically. And I also liked Jeri Ryan as one of the leads.

My question to Bob being a conspiracy theory aficionado, why don’t you team up with the creators of this unfortunate defunct series to continue to bring some of those truths to the limelight as you seem to want (though I realize it is a different studio than yours currently, if it is a source of conflict)? What I’m certain of though is you would make a great show with these guys, after savoring the success of ST12 of course.

I think from the looks of this thread we can actually deduce what the plot of the Star Trek sequel will be:

– A fringe element of the Federation will accuse Starfleet and Captain Kirk of helping Nero destroy Vulcan.

– The loudest members of the group will present scattered pieces of evidence to prove their theory, such as Spock Prime having a previous connection to Nero and the Romulans in a foreign universe, and the Enterprise miraculously being the only ship to survive Nero’s wrath, and Nero being conveniently dropped into a black hole after Vulcan’s destruction—without a trace of his body and no photos to prove so.

– Additionally, the fringe group will present two photos of Nero. “Do they look like the same man?” they will ask. “In one picture the ear doesn’t look as chewed up. In the other one it’s more pointed. Open your eyes, people!”

speaking of strieberish—i know whitleys got at least a couple of movies in dev. but never hear anything bout them being worked on or anything–strieber is one of my faves–check himout at unknowncountry.com

The problem with Strieber is that he’s turned whatever happened to him into a career and when you start looking to verify some of the things he’s said it doesn’t always work out in his favor, and he doesn’t seem to like it when people point that out.

Still, independent sources of evidence indicate to me that he may be right about some extraordinary things. I’m looking at a private piece of evidence right now, and it’s unbelievable. Literally. Which is also why I like Bob’s series proposal. It may literally be true that there are some things best not believed on a large scale.

what i read on another forum 1947 entertaiment is working on a series set pre-voyager time 2371, bob you mite want to check out about is the world going to end on DEC 21,2012 , is Santa clauses for real if their was a cover up did the one guy act alone in the john f kennedy shooting in 1963 . have you ever seen the film conspiracy theory ?

Not Trek content; history, and Founding Fathers, etc., almost sound like CTs… (may be a stretch, but I’m hoping to eek by, here).

Please ignore post if uninterested or if prone to offense by real life and meaningful discussion happening here. Just trying to help one person on thread broaden his bubble. (Personally, Odkin, I like learning that assumptions I’ve made are not entirely accurate. Broadening my own bubble reminds me that I’m not always right and, therefore, maybe some things aren’t as unjustified as I’d believed them to be):

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

~ Thomas Jefferson (corp’s had long been around and had fomented ample ill will before Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence.)

“There is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property… by…corporations. The power of all corporations ought to be limited in this respect. The growing wealth acquired by them never fails to be a source of abuses.”

~ James Madison (“Father of the Constitution”)

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of war,
corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.”

~ Abraham Lincoln

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the Government, to whom it properly belongs.”

~ Thomas Jefferson

“Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce.”

~ James A. Garfield, Rep.

It’s difficult to stop; there’s much more from many more… Prior to the Great Depression, Americans were protesting on Wall St. Their complaints were very much the same…

Focus guys focus! This is a Star Trek site, not a place to vent about personal beliefs. People get banned for as much. The lack of focus on Star Trek is the very reason the whole next movie is WAY behind schedule.

Actually this particular post is more about the Star Trek team’s projects OTHER than Star Trek, and as one of those projects is about a show about conspiracies, then this all seems to be on topic. For a change.

listen up….. J.J. & the guys this long time star trek(sence 1966) fans is sick & tired of other projects that you guys think is so much more important than doing than star trek.2.0, first .
sure i do understand you have to make a living. but the supreme court as you guys call yourselves a little advise get your priorities straight star trek 2.0 first !
then do the other projects later. their is no excuses why.star trek 2.0 should have been done by now …filmed & put in the can & ready to go.
but no you think your other little projects came first , and it starting to peeve off the fans big time .

355: Thank you for eloquently illuminating the purpose of this blog: Apparently it’s a far better thing to demand that a stranger make a movie for us and to assign him his priorities than it is to talk about things that entertain enough people to sustain a thread during a dry spell in fresh Trek produce.

#339 lol good ‘un, Vults.
This thread has passed some time for me but Conspiracies, in the main, well, i’ve got less and less time for them. Too frustrating for me- I like tidy endings and answers. Whats the point otherwise?

245-“So perhaps then he would do us a favor and explain how he came up with the implausible idea that Spock could actually SEE Vulcan imploding from Delta Vega and why Nero could be sure that he would actually be watching?”

Think about how a Trekkie… not everything needs to explain the scene is very good from the narrative and the visual director’s proposal …. I imagine a satellite image projecting a Image holographic to Spock prime.

267-“Sure. in canon, Spock perceived the death of hundreds of Vulcans telepathically, like obi won with the force, only a decade before”.

As for the search for “truth,” well, it seems as soon as it’s found and written down in the history books someone else will come along and propose their own version, market it, and sell a few new books (or screenplays). Strange how nebulous a thing it can be. Oh well….

Ruins of ancient cities in northern India that exhibit unusually high levels of radioactivity and also show signs of extreme heat damage that normally only occurs as a result of a nuclear attack.

Alien bases on the moon and/or the moon is actually an extremely ancient artificially-constructed alien artifact (the second one is probably amongst the more dubious conspiracy theories).

It depends on how much of a sci-fi element you want to include, especially when you consider the precedents of The X-Files and Warehouse 13. But there’s plenty of other stuff too, such as the conspiracy theory that Hitler didn’t really commit suicide at the end of WW2 but managed to escape, mysterious people who made huge trades on (if memory serves – correct me if I’m wrong) airline stocks shortly before 9/11, that sort of thing.

Plus there’s all that stuff about the “New World Order”, the Illuminati etc too, if you wanted to get into some really murky waters; you could put a different spin on it by suggesting that the Secret Cabinet is aware that there really is some kind of global conspiracy along those lines, but it’s completely different to current theories and also involves completely different people.

You could have a lot of fun with this ;)

Bob, one more casting suggestion: James Spader was absolutely fantastic as Alan Shore in “Boston Legal”. And he already has a sci-fi connection due to his role in “Stargate” (the original movie, not the TV show). The guy would be excellent in a suitable major role in “Secret Cabinet”…or a major role in ST12, for that matter.

Conspiracy:
Aliens who love beer, but hate hard work come to Earth. They set themselves up as some kind of Supreme Court. They create one movie that shows the amazing power of Beer Warp Drive… then, devlishly, promise a second movie which never materializes. Frustrated, millions of human nerds toil to bring about this shining (and bubbling) future! All while the aliens sit back and laugh… and burp.

By the way why do people still care about the allegedly Kennedy conspiracy? That guy is dead for nearly 50 years. If there were any conspirators, they are either dead or extremely old by now. A big number of people also only know Kennedy from history books, because they weren’t alive, when he lived. It is just so far in the past, that he died. Even if the conspiracy would be proved 100% right, it wouldn’t change any current politics. And they already made tons of movies/series/documentaries of his death. That theme is completely overused by now.

The “X-Files” series was part of a conspiracy to make us think there was a conspiracy covering up UFOs and aliens when in actual fact it was a distraction to cover up JJs plans to overtake Spielberg as the most successful producer in television. :)

Really, the Pearl Harbor movie opened a few months before the WTC attacks, refreshing the mind of the public the long forgotten words “Pearl Harbor”, waving flags everyone, preparing the american public. Ressurrecting and capitalizing on warmongering in a big commercial with slow talking people and Hans Zimmer music.

What´s the first things on the headlines back then after the attacks: “Pearl Harbor”.

One thing about it. A Conspriciy T.V Show can be Very Entertaining. Weather it be small ones like Marilyn Monroe with President Kennedy and did Clinton really Inhale or big ones. From The Philladelpha Experiment to Kennedy Assasanation to 9-11. Bob. I can’t wait to see what all you come up with. Should be very Entertaining.

245-”So perhaps then he would do us a favor and explain how he came up with the implausible idea that Spock could actually SEE Vulcan imploding from Delta Vega and why Nero could be sure that he would actually be watching?”

“Think about how a Trekkie… not everything needs to explain the scene is very good from the narrative and the visual director’s proposal …. I imagine a satellite image projecting a Image holographic to Spock prime.”

———————————

The first 2 parts of this statement are incoherent.

Are you suggesting that the audience should assume such a far fetched solution to explain something so major because the writer didn’t address it? If 2 planets of such size were close enough to see each other they would rip each other apart. Give me a break!

If a villain want’s to assure that his enemy sees the destruction of his home planet he doesn’t dump him on an ice planet and hope that (being from a hot desert planet) he isn’t huddling in his cave while your elaborate high-tech projection is playing. The villain would want to see his distress while said planet is being destroyed and then laugh in his face at his pain. You stick him in front of a view screen with several guns to his head. You don’t dump him on another planet.

@357 – Cygnus, thanks for reminding me there’s intelligent life… I was stunned to come across a few of those quotes (found many more), and so disappointed that I never saw them appear in arguments leading up to the high court’s determination (predictably, along a well established line) that they had a Constitutional obligation to declare corporations citizens – so much for check and balance.

375. We care because logic dictates that you dont’t kill a president without assuring your ability to get away with it and prevent retribution. To to that, some of the mechanisms of government must be cop-opted. And since we have dynasties in this country, too, like the Bush family (HW Bush was in Dallas on nov 22), who are potential suspects in the plot, then clearly all potential conspirators are not dead, nor are their corrupt progeny.

And here is bush senoir, at Gerald Ford’s funeral (the man who admitted to changing the location of the wound on Kennedy’s back on the autopsy reports) barely able to keep a straight face when he mentions lone gunman.

This is my post. This is what I see on my screen –
“361. Keachick (rose pinenut) – October 9, 2011
Could nature itself be a conspirator…?”

But some of you see it as post #358. Am I correct?

In order for there to be a conspirator(s), it presupposes that a mind, a consciousness exists with the capacity for forethought and planning. Just a question, a notion, a proposition. What part might humans, perhaps, play as (unwitting) co-conspirators in all of this?

Bob. You have a suspisous Mind. I Like it.
I would be Very interested to know what you would be able to come up with on The Phillidelpha Experiment. The Real one of course.
Also. Everyones Fav. Area 51.

All potential conspirators ARE dead or very old by now. Their “corrupt progeny” are not responsible for the deeds of their parents/grandparents. They are only responsible for what they are doing themselves.

Governments tend to be hush-hush about all kinds of things, which didn’t happen more than 100 years ago. As long as some contemporary witnesses and their children are still living, it may agitate the feelings of some people. That doesn’t mean that everything, which is classified, is really important today. They may hide things for patriotic reasons. No government like to admit to past misbehaviour of the country, even if the current people in power are not responsible for the deeds of the past. The same is true for families. Who likes to have a criminal as a direct ancestor? No one. So it is no wonder, that people may try to hide this fact. It may tarnish the reputation of the family, because unfortunately there are people, who blame persons for the deeds of their forefathers.

Also. With today’s Tech and Sat’s that can read your lic plates and with all of these UFO Report’s. I bet the Govt does know about Alien Craft Visiting our Planet. I also bet that some in the Govt have even Spoken to Aliens. What do you think Bob.

I am boycotting this group. I won’t be watching any project of theirs until Star Trek XII is released. While they had other successes before STXI, it was that film that we made a bx office success that allows them to have all these other projects presented to them. They have apparently forgotten that. It’s time to remind them.

What you say is true, a child should never be held responsible for the crimes of the parent or family member.

But its almost like there is a mob type situation going on, where the kids continue the misdeeds of their forebearers (weather its the parents or other “leaders”. Its a scam that just never seems to end.

Remind me, please, why was it so necessary to assassinate John F Kennedy? I think it would be difficult for one man, Lee Harvey Oswald, to work out how to assassinate a president. He would have needed help. The question is – who helped him or who did he help?

Aren’t the Bush family big oil people as well?

Filling people’s heads with the notion of there being this or that conspiracy can, of course, distract them from seeing a much larger and more sinister conspiracy taking place. Just saying…

BTW, what time is it there? It is 5.50am 11 October right now. I couldn’t sleep so got up, only to find that the computer had been left on – better half not such a better half for not turning everything off…:), so I came to check out what was happening here.

I was a little tired when I thought about the idea of nature itself (or some aspect of it) possibly being a conspirator. A lot of thought has gone into making us and the life we see all around. I don’t want to get into the God debate. It is just that our world, the universe, are the result of a lot of various processes, thoughts, consciousness of various kinds and at different levels which would presumably be part of what we would call nature….

The Bush’s come out of Skull and Bones, and if you understand how Skull and Bones operates things become a bit clearer. I also think it’s curious that President Reagan was shot by the son of a Bush family friend and campaign contributor and that Neil Bush was to have dinner with John Hinckley’s brother on the day following the shooting of Reagan. Had it been successful, George Bush senior would have become president, replacing the man who beat him for the republican nomination.

There are so many curious deaths in Washington that the most reasonable inference to make is that some group or groups in our own government are offing members of other groups. When Wayne Madsen got word that the White House wanted him dead, he would have had to be a complete imbecile to NOT take that seriously given what he was looking into for his book.

402. Which would make the hinkley family the first of two odd family connections between the bush’s and another family whose “idiot” son tries to change history. Anyone care to guess which other family is friends with the Bushes, and were with poppy Bush on 911?

Bob Orci – my post is #402. I do not think you are commenting on my post. I assume you are referring to dmduncan at #404.

So, am I getting this right? Are the Bush’s a bunch of assassins? Could other presidents share this predilection for bumping off people as well? Sod what the voters may think or want. Good old democracy in action…I keeeed.

Enough to make a Klingon envious of the state of affairs in the White House. I mean, a noble way for the Klingon to get ahead is to bump off his senior…but, of course, he must watch his own back as well.

OK, let us assume, the old George H. W. Bush was responsible for the murder of Kennedy. Would this have a huge effect of current national and international politics? I don’t think so.

Journalists will love this story of course. It will be in the media worldwide and many people will be entertained, when they watch the news. The media frenzy of Clinton/Monica Lewinsky will be repeated.

Old Bush will go to prison, if he doesn’t die because of decrepitude/illness, before the court can sentence him. I mean he is already 87 years old. He won’t live for much longer.

All of his younger kin will say, that they are shocked about what old Bush did. They will swear, that he never told them anything about it. And they will give their condolences to the Kennedy family. The younger Bushs won’t lose their wealth, their power, their jobs, because no court and no sensible person will make them responsible for the bad deeds of old Bush. It may tarnish the reputation of the family somewhat, but otherwise it won’t have consequences for them.

It will also not change the current national politics of the USA. Old Bush was important in the past. He isn’t any more. He is only a figure of the past, whose fall from grace won’t influence the decisions of current US politicians.

It also wouldn’t matter internationally. The countries, which hate the current US government or the USA as a whole, will continue hating it. At most they have one reason more for it.

The countries, which are positive or neutral towards the USA, also won’t treat the USA differently. Governments/rulers are pragmatic. They are often even acting politely/diplomatically towards other countries, whose CURRENT rulers are involved in tons of atrocities. They especially don’t care, if some past rulers were involved in crimes. If they think it is good for their own country to have good relations with the current US government, they will just ignore old Bush’s wrongdoing. The USA have an important role in all kinds of big international organizations. They have also everywhere military positioned, so it is kind of impossible for other countries, to ignore them. It will be an embarrassment for the USA, that one of their more recent presidents is responsible for murder. They may suffer some mockery from other countries, but that is all.

So all in all, there wouldn’t be any big political consequences, if the conspiracy would be true. When the media frenzy has died down, everything would be like before.

I am not sure about the whole UFO/alien stuff, but it seems that President Kennedy was keen to develop space technology jointly with the Soviet Union, so that space travel/exploration could be more affordable and possible. It seems there were vested interests in wanting to see the continuation of the Cold War along with an escalation of military expenditure and the M.A.D. ethos/programme. I wonder how far along we would be with the space programme(s) had he got his way…curious to say the least.

“409. Red Dead Ryan – October 10, 2011″ So, is RDR out of his mind or could it be “411. Mel – October 10, 2011″? Or am I out of my mind?
Look, I’ll make it easy – the answer to the last question is, quite likely, YUP – probably always have been a bit out there…

# 375: “…why do people still care about the allegedly (sic) Kennedy conspiracy?”

The attitude you express is exactly what the power brokers count on, not just in the case of JFK but everything at all levels. And it doesn’t take 50 years for most people to forget either – if they were ever aware of events beyond the MSM spoon to begin with.

# 395: “Is it the whole dang system that is evil?”

The people in charge of the system are evil, but they don’t think or exist in the realm of values such as good and evil.

Yes, Mel, I do see different numbers next to the names. So you are the one Bob thinks is out of their mind? :) Phew – that’s a relief. I mean, the mere notion that a self-described “Hollywood nut ball” could say that I am out of my mind…:)

Why, Bob, is Mel out of his/her mind? Hey, us foreigners have got used to US shenanigans, both within the USA and outside it. Par for the course, really. LOL

Next, I am awaiting the myriad of complaints re my “USA bashing”….oh dear….sigh… And I doubt that today’s US military can claim that “we are the only ship in the quadrant”. But I/we love you all the same! Well, most of us do.

“It seems there were vested interests in wanting to see the continuation of the Cold War along with an escalation of military expenditure and the M.A.D. ethos/programme.”

Remember what Eisenhower said about the dangers of what he termed the ‘military-industrial complex’.

“I wonder how far along we would be with the space programme(s) had he got his way…curious to say the least.”

Probably a hell of a lot further than we are now. The level of the current space programme compared to the burst of progress during the 60s and the predictions of how far along we’d be by the start of the 21st century is pretty ridiculous.

Also, since the following suggestion ended up getting buried at the end of my long comment #373 and I therefore have no idea if Bob Orci read it, let me quickly repeat it:

Bob Orci,

James Spader was superb in his awardwinning role as Alan Shore in the phenomenal “Boston Legal”; he also has a sci-fi connection via “Stargate”. Spader would be fantastic in a major role in ST09 and/or Secret Cabinet. Bob, please consider it ;)

Operation Fast And Furious, mentioned earlier by dmduncan, was set up by the Obama administration to give weapons to (supposedly) U.S border agents along the Mexican border but somehow found their way to drug dealers who are gunning down Mexican law enforcement officers and civilians in Mexico.

Could the escalating violence in Mexico be the result of the American government to create a refugee crisis, thereby allowing corporations to continue hiring cheap labor, thus pushing U.S citizens aside?

None of your media is reporting this. I heard about it a couple of weeks ago, only as a tidbit from CNN.

Bob, if you guys in the Supreme court had put the kind of energy and non-stop effort into the sequel as you have in posting on conspiracy theories here over the past three days, then you’d be working on the script for Trek 3 right now, and we’d all still be raving about Trek 2 from this past summer.

Keep your eye on the ball. While your conspiracy and politics are interesting and definitely provocative, they are a passing sidebar, and I think most of us would rather see this kind of energy directed toward getting the new film out sooner rather than later.

My guess is, they had already written the script, but it got sucked into a black hole and wound up two years in the past. Problem is, the “two years past” is in another universe, where audiences praised the film, which made a half-billion dollars worldwide, this past summer and now the film’s upcoming release on blu ray and dvd is highly anticipated by Trekkies from that universe.

So again in your own words, what do you think would change in the world, if old Bush and maybe some other dead or very old guys would be found out to be responsible for Kennedy’s death? Do you think wars will break out or that some wars will suddenly stop? Do you think that suddenly all other existing conspiracies will be revealed and tons of people punished? Or that US politicians/secret service organizations will never do anything illegal again? That they will stop having secrets, that they will start to tell the populace always the truth?

Gene Roddenberry achieved a level of understanding in his life experiences prior to Star Trek about the power and corruption of government at military and civilian level. He was a pilot in the military and a cop in El Lay.

I was hoping JJ’s colaboration with Billy Ray might be the “24” movie itself, but unless that’s a Paramount/20th Century Fox team-up, I guess that’s not possible…although JJ would be the perfect director for that project.

My #419 boborci – I have just read a lengthy review of the book on the link you provided. I think this is where a spiritual profanity might be in order as in “Holy damnation”.

So the other link provided which stated that there was a cover up re UFO sightings and the fact that President Kennedy was wanting to develop the space programme with the other major world superpower at the time, USSR, may well be true.

So, apart from everything else, it appears that these warmongering bastards behind the assassination of JFK were the ones also indirectly responsible for the slowing down of the space programme and NASA not getting quite enough funding, unlike the large military-industrial complex. An organisation that has enough weaponry to destroy the earth many times over is not about defending anybody, other than the interests of those elite who have control over such an offensive organisation. Please, don’t anyone kid themselves otherwise.

I am going to see if I can find the book today at a local bookstore. I might get lucky. Oh and I am going to see if I can find your first comic in the series – September 2011 edition, where you do well-known TOS episodes, but put them in the alternate universe. Oh my, I am actually talking about Star Trek on this thread. Whoa! Don’t get me started!…:)

“The attitude you express is exactly what the power brokers count on, not just in the case of JFK but everything at all levels. And it doesn’t take 50 years for most people to forget either – if they were ever aware of events beyond the MSM spoon to begin with.”

I really like to know the truth about the past from a historic point of view. History books should be accurate. But I really don’t get, why people are still so emotional about it or why they think, the revelation of the allegedly Kennedy conspiracy would change the world or at least the USA massively. I ask you the same as boborci. What do you think would change so dramatically TODAY, if old Bush was responsible for Kennedy’s death? Would the USA suddenly turn into Utopia on earth, where politicians will be the most honest, honourable people you can imagine?

All absurd. If true, then the REAL conspiracy is that of the Chinese, who have won, and within a few years will consolidate their control over the planet. Oops, then again, who was ambassador to China once?
.
你所有的基地都屬於我們！

It matters because it’s not just one person or even one family and it’s not just the assassination of one man. This is a transgenerational effort by a group of power elites (oligarchs) bent on creating a neo-feudalistic world. We will live by one set of rules in a struggle for our existence in combat with each other along false left-right lines that they draw for the feud to take place, and they will live by another set of rules publicly feigning allegiance to one side or the other, while living in the moral corruption that having an unearned existence supported by the energy and life of those beneath them creates.

It’s always about energy. But the TRUE energy source that powers civilization is not oil. It’s YOU.

Which reminds me. Alternative suggestion for Secret Cabinet’s president since Bruce Greenwood is not available: Laurence Fishburne.

436: Seems a certainty unless something unforeseen intervenes; but, historical forecasts so often falter. Remember when Japan seemed unstoppable and poised to put us out of business? They went for broke and are still recovering (it helped that we made trade demands). The Cold War didn’t go as forecast, either.

China’s patient adherence to a long term plan for assent has seemed a looming threat to global freedom; but enter global markets and we’ve got a new world order in which none of us can afford to see economic crisis elsewhere. The 100 year plan may lack the flexibility to adjust to change in a global economy, and one in which no one and nothing may remain on top from one fiscal year to the next.

@422. “Could the escalating violence in Mexico be the result of the American government to create a refugee crisis, thereby allowing corporations to continue hiring cheap labor, thus pushing U.S citizens aside?”

Another reason Mexico is a mess is becuase of the brain drain issue. Educated people like Orci have been bailing out on the home country of Mexico for years, leaving the remaining elements of the educated their to try to pull things together as best they can. I really admire the people who have that courage to stay and to, as best they can, try to make things better down there.

Speaking of Mexico and conspiracy – or at least, perhaps, cahoots… Didn’t a ton of money flow from Mexico to California around the time CA was considering wider legalization of drugs – which would mean less demand for illegal drugs from Mexico?

Senor Orci, I did not know you were born in Mexico. My family used to live in Saltillo, Coahuila. My youngest brother was probably the first 12 lb white baby ever born there.

I was away for the weekend so I didn’t have time to defend my own post at #25. I know this is old news but I must speak out.

To all the posts from Red Dead Ryan labeling anyone who questions authority as a “conspiracy theorist,” this is just plain simple-mindedness.
To equate that with the organized, virulent anti-semites who deny the Holcaust is just plain malicious.

A few weeks ago, I watched Leonard Nimoy in “Never Forget” which is about a man named Mel Mermelstein who took on the Holocaust deniers in court and won. Anyone who doesn’t understand what a Holocaust denier is should watch this film…and cry.

As for the attacks on the World Trade Center on 9/11, I stand by my opinion. I used to think this was a Let-It-Happen event. That is, the Bush administration knew that an attack of some sort was imminent so they stood by and let it happen to give them an excuse to engage in a war with Iraq. Never mind that they invaded the wrong country, never mind that it was a naked grab for oil, never mind that none of the hijackers were Iraqis, I couldn’t believe that anyone in my government would commit murder of thousands of good people. I just couldn’t believe it.

I have since seen a movie that has changed this opinion “911: Explosive Evidence.” You can see it for free on YouTube here:

After seeing this film, I wanted to bend over and vomit. I wanted to cry and to scream because I just couldn’t wrap my head around this sort of evil.
This film is a sober, scientific discussion of the evidence at the crime scene. The participant are not wild-eyed zealots. They are the kind of people who could discuss the matter logically with Mr. Spock.
They are respected architects, engineers, physicists and firemen, who demand one thing: examination of the crime scene for evidence of explosive, incendiary devices.

To answer RedDeadDyan’s question as to why no explosives were found at the crime scene, it was because they were never searched for. This despite the presence of POOLS of molten steel at the bases of these buildings. Burning jet fuel and office furniture, even exploding jet fuel, does not melt steel. It may weaken it causing it to buckle or deform but steel will not melt due to burning jet fuel.
You can see molten steel pouring out of the building in the film. This is forensic fire scene investigation 101! When you see molten steel, look for incendiary devices, e.g. Thermite.

And if you are still unconvinced, remember that THREE buildings came down in lower Manhattan that day. Number 7 World Trade Center came down in a controlled demolition manner, imploding at free-fall speeds. There were only two small fires burning in this building. So why did it disintegrate? In the history of architecture, NO steel frame building has ever collapsed due to fire and yet on that day all three came down, imploding into their own foot prints. No bending, no tipping over. Controlled demolition.

As I’ve said, I didn’t want to believe it, but I must. On the 10th anniversary of 9/11, I was watching a documentary by two French filmmakers who were following around a rookie fireman that fateful day and who got caught in the buildings just as they were about to collapse. They barely escaped with their lives. They recorded everything from inside the Towers. Chaos, panic, the sickening thud of falling bodies, and POWERFUL EXPLOSIONS, which are not those of exploding jet fuel because they occurred long after the jet fuel would have burned off.

This was a Make-It-Happen event. I leave it up to others to figure out exactly who did it, how and why.

As for the Kennedy assassination, I think the evidence is mounting that Oswald was not a lone gunman.
I am a pathologist and I’ve worked at the Medical Examiner’s office. I saw the autopsy photos of Kennedy’s exploded head. I’ve been to Dealey Plaza and looked out of the 6th floor Book Depository window where Oswald was purported to have been. They have a nice exhibit there and if you are ever in Dallas, you should go there and see for yourself what a strange and difficult shot it is. I asked a good friend who was a LRRP in Vietnam about this. He was basically a professional sniper and he felt it was an impossible shot!

From the age of 10 I spent my summers in the country shooting a cheap mail order rifle at lots of things: bottles, tin cans and overripe melons (which simulate a human head very nicely.) My dad and I wasted thousands of round of ammunition and in all that time nothing we ever shot has ever jumped TOWARDS us.

And yet on the Zapruder film we see Kennedy’s head snap BACK and to the left. If Oswald is behind Kennedy, why would his head go that way? As for exploding gasses, I’m sure Mr. Spock would give us a nice series of calculations showing what the force of those exploding gasses would have to be to overcome the momentum of the bullet and to lift Kennedy up by his heels, throwing him back into his seat.

And lastly in “Fog of War” Robert McNamara says even he doesn’t know who killed Kennedy. Chilling.

@ 432: Mel – “What do you think would change so dramatically TODAY, if old Bush was responsible for Kennedy’s death? Would the USA suddenly turn into Utopia on earth, where politicians will be the most honest, honourable people you can imagine?”

The question has multiple interpretations. I don’t think there would be a dramatic change here in the USA if empirical proof of the details of the plot and all those who were involved were revealed present day. The entire world has a much thicker skin and viewpoint now. Things change.

Back in the day, JFK and RFK chose to cross swords with many powerful people and organizations including the CIA, FBI, Mafia, Texas tea and their respective henchmen. Had technologies been more advanced at the time, it could have resulted in a Watergate type investigation as happened ten years later.

If the crime been properly investigated by MSM at the time and the world told of facts and events within a year which have finally been forced into the light after decades, the history of the USA would certainly be different. As to how different, perhaps there would be around 50,000 more Americans still alive for starters.

It would not have been as easy to conspire if technologies were a bit more advanced than 11/22/63. History was easier to manipulate back then. As one small example, it took studio TV cameras 20 minutes to warm up on that day; hence Walter Cronkite’s first on-air TV bulletins were voiceover readings of newswire reports from Dallas over a CBS news title card graphic.

I lived through the days of the Cuban missile crisis and heard the air raid warning siren practices and was taught to duck and cover in the second grade. So I am more attached to events of those times than most people presently walking our planet.

It is the principal of things mostly. JFK certainly was no saint, but he was in power at a very important time and was removed with malice by those who opposed his actions and plans. It is too late for meaningful justice, but even slow justice and closure would bring some measure of satisfaction to my generation and others.

@ 438: boborci – Agreed, and even though the ARRB was able to force many new documents out, others still remain classified until 2017, when they may well be delayed further or “lost”.

“440. More painful to force you to live through watching everyone you know and love die, including mommy!”

Hence my questioning the logic of dumping an enemy on a planet and then hope that he’s even facing the right way when you pull off your big event. If you want to force someone to live through killing “mommy” YOU MAKE SURE THEY’RE WATCHING. You only get one chance at something like that. This way you don’t have unforeseen problems with your plan such as dumping him within walking distance of a base.

It’s curious Bob that you advise people to use their brain and question the facts when they don’t sit right, yet you expect us to bite our tongues and let our intelligence be insulted when we see something totally illogical in your story. Is it so wrong to question why Spock would jettison Kirk onto a desolate planet where he could have died when Vulcan is virtually right next door? Or to question why he was jettisoned at all?

With all due respect….I hope that you exercise some of this impressive conspiracy reasoning when you write the next movie.

453. Vulcan gone, not next door. Moon is closest body. Kirk instructed to stay in the SAFETY of his shuttle by computer until he is picked up, which he defies. Also, Spock knows Kirk too smart to be kept in the brig. Hence getting off ship he snuck onto.

I guess John Kerry didn’t then, but if you actually listen to what he was saying, he was referring to the possibility that WTC 7 was demolished because it posed a danger to the area (meaning a domino effect of damaging even more buildings in the immediate area). He did not say the Twin Towers were a controlled demolition. Try reading the article I posted. It has lots of nice scientific data and diagrams. Spock would dig it.

@449. LOL. This points out the thing that makes a lot of us just shake their heads — pretty much all of you here who buy into the conspiracies, but into a large grouping of them rather than just one. If any of you just said, here is my one conspiracy, and here is my evidence and info to support it, then it would come across as much more credible. But the fact that to a man, almost all of you believe in the same group of conspiracies, i.e., multiple conspiracies, strains credibility and common sense.

In other words, if each of you could just STICK TO ONE FRACKING CONSPRIACY, then I think you would find that a lot more people would buy into at least the possibility that it might be right. Otherwise, a lot of us are still going to guffaw at “Crazy Bob and his Conspiracy Cronies” who talk on Trekmovie.com about their multiple crackpot conspiracy theories.

I do not include Harry Ballz in this group. Harry has done a ton of research on one conspiracy, the Kennedy Assassination, and he sticks to his guns and focuses on that one. And you know what, because of that, I find him a lot more credible, and even read the book he recommended on the subject.

The rest of you who are peddling multiple conspiracies lose the credibility that Harry has, because a lot of us can see that you just want and need to believe in this stuff to fit your own worldview, which is aligned with the group of individuals who is making money and fame though the crackpot cottage conspiracy industry. You have an obvious predilection for conspiracies, and that causes you to lose credibility, versus say a person with an open mind who might, from time to time, uncover wrongdoing and perhaps a conspiracy or two in the course of independent reasoning based on a making conclusions from a complete body of information and information.

And finally, in specific response to the charade of the twin towers being brought down by controlled demolition, I leave you with this:

“Thomas Eagar, a professor of materials science and engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, also dismissed the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Eagar remarked, “These people (in the 9/11 truth movement) use the ‘reverse scientific method.’ They determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.”

Exactly — and that is how all these conspiracy theories work. You cherry-pick people and data to support the theory and ignore the bottoms-up scientific approach that involves peer review, etc. You get the answer you want!

“And as for you guys who think the World Trade Center was a “controlled demolition,” allow me to introduce you to a little thing called science:”

————————

Thanks Vultan for bringing some sanity back to this issue of what caused the towers to come down. Whether the govt. knew or not is one thing. But to say that they had anything to do with the actual destruction is lunacy!

Anyone who knows anything about controlled implosion would know what a massive amount of work would be involved in preparing such a feat. Walls would have to be removed, beam and columns would have to be notched and drilled, thousands of feet of detonation cord would have to be strung together one every floor. How could any of that be done in secret? There’s no way it could go unnoticed.

The fact that the second tower being hit on a lower floor, and being the first to fall, corroborates the science of how the steel weakened enough to cause a chain reaction structural failure. The larger load above the fire on the lower floor hastened the point of failure sooner than the first building with the higher impact.

Anthony, I love your site and all, but I’m getting sick of all the bitching from posters. I get it, it’s a comment section and EVERYBODY is free to speak their mind, I’m not suggestion you take away the comments or anything. But for everyone who’s saying that the new team is disrespecting trek and its fans, has anyone pointed out that alot of the fans have been disrespecting them since before trek09 was even released? have you forgotten that these guys are write, produce, and direct films and television shows and that you need more than just a trek movie or trilogy for that matter to have a career??? they do have lives to live and like it or not, they’re in high demand so it’s pretty natural that they have many different upcoming projects to do. this whole post was just reporting on their upcoming projects, just like you’ll find a post about shatner or stewart having a non-trek related gig. it’s like you’ve lost your minds and i just dont get it. i mean okay, i’m a huge trek fan, always have been, always will be so yes, i’m highly anticipating the new film and i come here all the time to get any bits of news but i’m going to disrespect the team who have single handedly put trek back into the mainstream public’s minds just because i’m not getting enough news about trek12! they gave you a good movie, jj is directing, its in pre-production, it’s going to happen so just let it happen organically. these arent the days of harve bennett when they cranked out a hit or miss trek movie back to back just for the sake of it. so just let it happen.
there…that feels better now that i got that off my chest.

@452 I AM invoking science. All these respected scientists are asking for is a scientific investigation of the crime scene.

And P.S. On Tuesday evening, Frontline will be airing a show at 9:00 on the Anthrax attacks that occurred one week after the 9/11 attack. On the evening of 9/11 Dick Cheney ordered his staff to start taking Cipro, even though bacteria had never been used as a biological terror agent before, and lo and behold one week later, the first of the Anthrax-laden letters were mailed from New Jersey to several news organizations and to two members of congress, Patrick Leahy and Tom Daschle, the two holdouts on passage of the “Patriot” Act.

Years later the FBI claimed that a psychotic virologist who committed suicide, Bruce Ivins, did it. And indeed the source of the strain of anthrax was the Centers for Disease Control via Fort Detrick; however, the manufacture of weaponized anthrax requires at least two sets and hands and a hood. The nature of this crime is by definition a conspiracy.

The PBS documentary questions whether the FBI got the right guy. (Probably not. Bruce Ivins made vaccines for anthrax. What did he know about making weaponized anthrax?)

But you’ve taken his quote completely out of context, as 457 nicely described.

And Stones’ “JFK” HEROIC? It was a crime against truth and history. A propoganda tract that has misinformed millions of people already woefully miseducated by government union school orthodoxy. Stone and Moore are the new Leni Riefenstahls.

They can’t stick to just one conspiracy, MJ, because it’s all connected! Don’t you see?! Kennedy, Bush, 9/11, the Soviet Union, the Catholic Church, Coca-Cola, Tupperware, women—they’re all in on it! They’re all conspiring to deplete us of our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!

Nope. Just clarifying what Kerry said (or what he was trying to say. I know, it’s difficult to understand that mumbling, don’t-have-the-facts-in-front-of-me-so-I’m-just-going-to-say-something-to-get-out-of-this sort of talk politicians so frequently use).

@463 Bob, why don’t you instead try reading Vultan’s post and citation — assuming that is not too INCONVENIENT for the silly argumentative trap that you supposedly believe you have set to for him:

“I guess John Kerry didn’t then, but if you actually listen to what he was saying, he was referring to the possibility that WTC 7 was demolished because it posed a danger to the area (meaning a domino effect of damaging even more buildings in the immediate area). He did not say the Twin Towers were a controlled demolition. Try reading the article I posted. It has lots of nice scientific data and diagrams. Spock would dig it.”

Regarding JFK’s Assasination, Maybe it was a Marilyn Monroe fan who knew a kennedy had her killed who pulled the trigger lol
Ever consider that? as you know devoted fans can be a bit too passionant lol

Can’t believe your finally talking but its not about Star Trek- unless it is some Star Trek time travel conspericy theory sequel?

Who was Jeff “Gannon”? Why was a male prostitute a fixture at George Bush’s White House? Did Leola McConnell ever turn back up from her status as missing? Ugly stuff. It’s no wonder some of you would rather timewarp back to Richie Cunningham’s house on Happy Days than look at this stuff, because it actually gets worse.

Here’s the thing: When little Richie Cunningham was sleeping safe in his comfortable 1950’s bed trusting his government — his government had a little project called MKULTRA going.

On the morning of 9/11, I happened to be in a room watching TV with a group of mechanical engineers who knew the construction of the twin towers in detail. They predicted the collapse of both towers would occur exactly as happened and were surprised the towers stood as long as they did. They also agreed with the reasons given for the WTC 7 collapse.

From that experience and some related personal experience, I don’t buy into any 9/11 controlled demo conspiracies. See my post @ # 100 here.

My beliefs as to what happened in Dallas have changed over the years and I expect some who are now quite sure of what transpired on 9/11 regarding controlled demo will change their current beliefs over time.

But I don’t begrudge those who question any actions related to any government or agency either.

*The ability to freely discuss questionable and historical events of all types is the single most important element present.*

As this deteriorates into a dung throwing contest, which always happens, please at least let us remember *that*.

@486. “On the morning of 9/11, I happened to be in a room watching TV with a group of mechanical engineers who knew the construction of the twin towers in detail. They predicted the collapse of both towers would occur exactly as happened and were surprised the towers stood as long as they did. They also agreed with the reasons given for the WTC 7 collapse.”

No. When we get stuck, we surf the web as a sorbet, so to speak. Have been writing this entire time we have been chatting. And this time, we have Damon aboard, making it even faster once we got started on actual scripting.

@491. OK. In that case, I’ll keep being an a-hole to you then so I can do my part to keep your mind focused and brain motivated — an hopefully, if I’ve pissed you of a bit, it is helping you to write some scenes.

Happy to do my part to help Trek 2 get done! Think of me as your triple espresso to help get the script done!

I saw the documentary about the rookie firemen on 11 September. I wasn’t going to watch it but I got caught up in it. The documentary went on for about two and a half hours. That poor rookie was certainly “thrown in the deep end” that day. The saddest part was that every day for about five days they went out searching for anybody, dead or alive. From memory, they found no one alive and only one body that could be properly identified. They lost hope of finding anyone alive, but they had hoped to find enough of bodies that could be identified and thus give closure to at least some families, but that did not happen. The destruction was just sooo massive.

My better half has another explanation on why the Twin Towers collapsed the way they did – it is easier if he explained:

She-who-must-be-obeyed has commanded that I rehash the stuff I have read or seen on TV for the past decade. The basic thrust of the explanation of why the twin towers collapsed the way they did is that the 200 odd tons of high octane jet fuel was injected into the central steel cantilever structure of the buildings then ignited, burning at 7000 degrees F destroying the crystalline lattice structure of the metal, rendering it unable to support the weight of the 30 something floors above it, resulting in catastrophic structural failure which led inevitably to the pancake collapse. The powerful explosions were probably due to the force of the superheated air being expelled as the concrete floors collapsed in rapid succession. Air expelled at high speed becomes superheated anyway and this air was already cooking. As for other older buildings collapsing – this was most probably due to the shock-wave effect. As we here in New Zealand have recently been made reminded, there is no way to predict how a specific building will respond to a shock-wave, be it from an earthquake (as in Christchurch on 22 Feb) or from a powerful explosion. Each building responds differently. Some buildings in Christchurch were cleared by structural engineers but later collapsed in a lower magnitude aftershock. The real damage was hidden in microscopic structure of the building materials and only revealed itself under further specific stress. Materials scientists will be busy for the next decade trying to figure this out. I have yet to hear a conspiracy theorist who can advance a plausible explanation other than the conspiracy of ignorance which defines the limitations of science. Why should 911 be any different ?
– He-who-does-her-bidding -

It’s not even dung throwing. When you post unpleasant facts that others are not aware of and are not accustomed to seeing, it isn’t crap that’s being thrown, it’s an aversion to uncomfortable realities that makes some feel like crap is being thrown at them. But it’s not. The ugliness is in the facts and in those who created those facts, not in the posting of them. MKULTRA was a real and illegal program. Jeff Guckert (fake name Gannon) was a gay prostitute posing as a journalist with very unusual access to the White House. There were no WMDs in Iraq!!! I don’t have to go further than that last one. It was all untrue! Innocent children were killed by our bullets and bombs for no legitimate reason.

Somehow I don’t think Jesus is going to be waiting to greet George Bush with a high five at the pearly gates. I really don’t.

It’s good to see that the left, between Truther fantasies and Bush Derangement Syndrome, has far eclipsed the benign nuttiness of the rights’ Vince Foster and Birther whackos.

BTW – Iraq was based on MISTAKES by the Clinton-ruined Intelligence community, not “lies”. Learn the difference. There was still plenty of good reason to topple Hussein though. The first Iraq war never ended – it was legally just a long cease-fire, and there were plenty of violations and provocation for finishing it.

Solyndra, the “jobs” bill, and Fast & Furious denials are good examples of what objective thinkers like to call “lies”.

Only partly true, Odkin. Bush had dissenting opinions which he chose to ignore, and he made a joke about not finding WMDs afterward. A lot of dead Iraqi children never got that joke. So you could say Bush lied to himself, but he lied, either way. There was deception. He could have chose another way and he knew as CIC what would happen to a lot of innocent people if he chose to ignore dissent.

Keachick with her post at #494 explained the collapse of the Twin Towers perfectly. IF you choose to read her post.

I would add to that what the poster at #486 said.

Also, 7 World Trade Center collapsed because of the fires in the building which were ignited by burning debris and jet fuel that rained down on it after the planes hit the towers, and possibly also because of the large falling chunks of the North Tower, which would have weakened that building even further. 7 WTC might have been across the street, but it was still close enough to the North Tower.

Some have even suggested that the construction of 7 WTC wasn’t as strong as planned.

So … Nixon was in Dallas to do what? Deliver Oswald’s coffee? Zero his weapon? I’m not sure what that means. The assassination could not occur unless his was there? What if I told you I was in Dallas at the time?

Anyway. Regarding your new series, have you considered using Lennon’s “gimme some truth” as the theme?

All I want is the truth, just give me some truth
I’ve had enough of reading things
By neurotic psykotic pigheaded politicians

All I want is the truth, just give me some truth
No short heard yellow bellied
Son of tricky dicky’s
Gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocket full of hopes
Its money for dope, money for rope
(guitar solo)

No short heard yellow bellied
Son of tricky dicky’s
Gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocket full of hopes
Its money for dope, money for rope

George W. Bush presented false evidence to the world of Saddam’s alleged active WMD program, and his collaboration with Al Queda. Both turned out to be false, as Iraq had destroyed it’s weapons during the UN inspections during the nineties. Saddam Hussein was putting on a bluff because of his arch enemies in Iran, who sought to topple his regime and install a pro-Ayatollah Khamenei Shiite Muslim dominated theocracy.

The Bush administration failed to realize this and the Iraq war has ended up costing over 4000 American troops, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and 2 trillion dollars all of which benefitted Iran, America’s true enemy nation that does have a robust nuclear weapons program, a highly trained and advanced military, and a global jihadist terrorist organization that it controls and funds.

It was George W. Bush that started the decline of America’s role as the sole superpower, and the start of Iran as a serious global nuclear threat.

Not to mention the Taliban being the beneficiaries of Iraqi-trained Al Queda expertise which has resulted in the loss of most progress which was being made in Afghanistan prior to the invasion of Iraq.

But it’s now difficult to leave Iraq without it becoming a vacuum in which Iran would exploit by seizing control of the oil fields in the south and possibly in the north, and becoming a base of military activity from which to launch an attack against Israel.

Oh, I’ve read all about MKULTRA. But what most people don’t know is that it was actually a joint research program between the CIA and Hollywood to get people to watch movies and television in which no creative effort is involved. I mean, how else do you explain the success of Jersey Shore and the Transformers movies?

There has been some rumers that as she was flying around the world that she was sending Information about Japan’s Fleet Movement. I think she was doing that and simply got to close to one of there carrier fleet’s.

You would think that folks involved in an assassination would choose to be anywhere BUT Dallas on 11/22.

Ironic, but I was driving back from Fort Hood just last week with a buddy that I had spent a year in Iraq with and we took the i75 exit off of I35 and I asked my driving buddy if he thought Dallas was preserving the whole grassy knoll area as a museum dedicated to the Kennedy assassination. Because it’s like frozen in time. I drive by it every time I come back from drill weekend. Never changes.

My buddy sakes he didn’t think so.

Please tell me I got you thinking about using Lennon’s “gimme some truth” as your series theme song. I swear, that song is playing right now on my Slacker Radio app on my iPad right now.

The only way Iran would’ve have been able to get their hands on Iraqi WMD would have been if a) a defector working as an agent for Iran had secretly stolen a weapon during the UN inspections in the nineties, b) had somehow found some weapons which were forgotten about after the 2003 invasion, or c) Saddam gave them to Syria, which in turn gave them to its ally in Iran.

There is no way Saddam Hussein would have ever given his enemies the same weapons he once used on them. NEVER.

They believe Earhart and Noonan landed on the Japanese-held Marshall Islands and were taken prisoners of war.

According to eye-witnesses in the Marshall Islands, Earhart made an emergency landing on the reef near the Mili Atoll. She and Noonan were picked up by boat and taken ashore.

The Marshallese ambassador to The United Nations, Alfred Capelle, thinks the strength of the eye-witness account is overwhelming. Capelle has interviewed many of the witnesses who claim to have seen two American flyers in captivity. Perhaps the most detailed account comes from Bilimon Amran, a medic, who was taken aboard a Japanese ship to treat the wounds of two rescued American flyers, a man and a woman who was addressed as Amelia.

More eye-witness accounts place Earhart and Noonan in Garapan Prison on the island of Saipan during World War II, and there may be proof.

In 1944, 7 years after Earhart went missing, US marines overcame the Japanese forces on Saipan. One marine thinks he found crucial evidence during that mission which backs up the eye-witness accounts. Robert Wallack believe he found Earhart’s personal documents in a safe on the bombed-out military base. The documents, held in a briefcase, included Amelia’s passport and visas. If Wallack still had the documents the evidence would be compelling, but he turned them over to an officer, never to be seen again.

The only clues that remain are several questionable inscriptions found in the prison. If Earhart and Noonan were held in Garapan Prison, the big question is ‘What happened to them?’

The eye-witness accounts of their demise are varied. Some say that they were beheaded, others that Earhart died from dysentery and Noonan was shot. Wallack says he was shown to an unmarked grave site by a Saipanese woman who saw a white woman and a man buried there. But it all falls short of physical proof.

Senior officers in the US Navy including Admiral Chester Nimitz were quoted by reporters to have said the rumours of Earhart’s capture were true.

If the eye-witness accounts depicting Earhart as a POW are true it might explain the US Government’s history of secrecy over the whole Earhart mystery.

And there is nothing unusual about a planted fake journalist who’s also a gay prostitute having access to the White House, asking softball questions of George Bush?

I think you are nuts if you do NOT raise an eyebrow at that, it’s so incongruous to the official image of the Bush White House.

If you don’t have any questions you simply do not want to know very strongly what’s up with that. I do. I’m the SORT of person who wants to know. I’m not trying to convert anyone, but don’t expect me to stare at my soup as if nothing strange is going on when there is, and don’t expect me to not wonder out loud in situations like this when the talk is about conspiracy.

And don’t think I’m picking on Bush. If Wayne Madsen manages to stay unkilled long enough to finish his book, Obama is going to come out looking almost as bad, and I say “almost” only because Bush ordered us into war with Iraq and is responsible for a lot more death and carnage than Obama, and that kind of bad mojo is hard to beat.

535. Vultan – October 10, 2011

Now you’re just being flippant toward facts that tend to dispute your dismissive attitude toward conspiracies in general, and that doesn’t help you make your case.

I don’t know, dmduncan, it seems to have worked for Jerry Seinfeld. :D

***

Actually I meant that “you” specifically. And I’m enjoying myself immensely right now!!! You’ll have to take my word for it, tho. Don’t be fooled by the interpretation you make from words on a screen. That’s more what you want to see than what I’m actually feeling. Which is pretty good. Even despite the obituary!

A truely historic conspiracy theory, for those who are interested in such things, happens to be the Hindenburg Explosion. One of the longest standing nefarious rumors is that it was blown up on purpose, by none other than General Motors Co. & their German subsidiery Opel. Ford had just perfected the first Hydrogen car, and every major manufacturer was clamoring to catch up. This was even exposed unknowingly on a History Channel special several months ago. Big Oil was waiting in the wings for their chance to upstage the unveiling of the Hydrogen car, and simultaneously nix the alternative fuel competition in the bud…and what better way to put the fear of hydrogen in the world than exploding the Hindenburg complete with live radio broadcast of the hysterical reporter.

Up until recenty, the theory held that the tremendous explosion was caused by the hydrogen itself explosing moments before arrival:

“THE HINDENBURG EXPLODES, 1937. Twenty photographers were
waiting to take routine shots when the Hindenburg arrived
at Lakehurst, N.J., on her 21st Atlantic crossing. Sud-
denly fire broke out; 60 seconds later nothing was left of
the dirigible but molten metal. The cameramen reacted
instantaneously to produce the most complete coverage of a
news event in history.”

NOTICE THESE DATES –
May 6, 1936: Hindenburg inaugurates first scheduled passenger air service between Europe and the United States.
May 6, 1937: Hindingurg disaster occurs at the Lakehurst Naval Air Station in Lakehurst, New Jersey.

Exactly one year later to the day. But there’s more…strange pictures have surfaced showing the same Hindenburg in flight exactly 10 years EARLIER enscribed, “The Rendevous With Death” written underneath the picture of the zepplin, and it is missing the Olympic logo that it sported in 1936, which makes one wonder. Pictures: [link to http://www.afn.org

Now the last piece of the puzzle remains with the explosion itself, which is where “Myth Busters” from the Discovery Channel comes in. They tested the old myth that the catalyst of explosion was something OTHER than the hydrogen itself, which was included INTO the explosion naturally occuring due to it’s highly flamable nature. So what REALLY caused the Hindenberg to explode?!!! THE EXTERIOR PAINT JOB WAS EVEN MORE FLAMABLE THAN THE HYDROGEN!!! The coating on the outside of the zepplin was so flamable, than a tiny spark ignited the air vessel in an instant flash. On “Myth Busters” they compared the two different types of explosions one an internally ignited hydrogen explosion, or a 2 part explosion with the catalyst being the exterior paint propellant…and guess what?! The 2 part explosion behaved EXACTLY as the Hindenberg did!

Soooooooo put it together and what do you get? Zippity Boppity Boo…Conspiracy!!!!!!!!

Well, I think it’s all done for fun! People feel compelled to solve mysteries because they either can’t live without answers, or aren’t convinced the truth is being told. Both are legitimate reasons for conspiracy theories.

Although VulcanFilmCritic seems to be a fan of revisionist history with regards to 9/11 and how the towers came down.

557: Exactly. Given the inertia of the culture of corruption in Washington DC, which not even the mainstream media disputes exists, why exactly would anyone believe that it prettied itself up all by itself if they don’t hear otherwise? That would be real magic.

I have to admit. This has been a lot of fun. Also. Knowing I have helped Bob Orici with great stuff for his new show is pretty kool as well. From The Phillidelphia Experiment to Amelia Airhart to maybe the Hindenberg. Thanks Bob. A lot of fun.

“-Bush used evidence vetted by intelligence agencies from multiple countries to justifiably overthrow Hussein in accordance with multiple violations of the Gulf War ceasefire”

Except that Bush could have limited his campaign to the air, much like what is going on in Libya right now. The Iraqi army under Saddam was in ruins ever since the lopsided defeat in 1991. Bush could have just continued to bomb from the air until the Iraqi army was incapacitated for good. They could have put an end to the Iraqi dictatorship just by air power alone.

I agree! In addition, there ARE power mad bureaucrats and tax addicts who would punish those who don’t pay taxes, but who themselves face no legal consequences for unconscionably wasting taxpayer dollars! Why? because THEY write the laws and they are not going to punish themselves for their own iniquity. Like I said. Two sets of rules: One for us, and another for them, the power elites.

But the ground level left and right folks are pawns in a game that they are not aware of, have much more in common than the instigators of the battles want them to know about, and are not the real threat.

It seems Secret Cabinet is already a winner based on the amount of discussion far. It is an excellent idea and I look forward to watching it on Fox before they cancel it. Seriously, I hope it lasts . You have all o history to wrk from. For a similar concept in novels, google “the event group” novels. Pretty fun concept if not always executed well by the author. Bob, I know you will do better !

And this is fun. Want some more? Has anyone ever noticed that the Pentagon is a magical symbol, also used as a five pointed star in Satanic worship? Did you know that the parcel of land that the Pentagon was built on suggested the design since it had the rough shape of a five sided pentagon?

Now does anybody know what the name of the slum was that the Pentagon was built atop? You can’t make this up folks. Anybody know?

The big business = good, big government = bad way of looking at things is false. BIg business LOVES to cozy up to and use its influence on lawmakers to give them an advantage over the little guy. That’s nuts! And it’s certainly not laissez faire. Big business is not pro laissez faire — it is pro government involvement in providing them advantages that smaller companies without their influence do not have. There exists a mutually dependent relationship of corruption between big business and big government, and we the people often face it as a single entity, not as a good thing on one side versus a bad thing on the other.

Ever the logical, and rational one, you are dmduncan. I’d ask if you would consider running for public office, but, unfortunately, I doubt you are a multi-millionaire aristocrat with corporate connections. Which you’d have to be to even enter a race.

And this kind of governance is happening in Europe too. Greece, as an example, has been run by corrupt bereaucrats into the ground and the Greek people are paying the price by being laid off, programs getting cut to the bone, and taxes hiked. German taxpayers are (quite rightfully) enraged at having to bail out yet another European country. The Greek government had been lying to the E.U about it’s deficit and debt problems and a lot of investors felt betrayed by the dishonesty.

I didn’t suggest bombing Mecca. Never would. All I suggested was instead of sending 300,000+ troops into (what some had accurately predicted) an urban warfare quagmire, perhaps it would have been more efficient to defeat Saddam with your military’s greatest advantage, air power. The Iraqi army was no threat to its neighbours, only to its people, but even then, there was the Medhi Army, ready to topple the dictatorship. Yeah, it goes against what I said earlier about Iraq becoming an extension of Iran, but if war was necessary, one could easily argue that the strategy used by Bush wasn’t needed. In fact, it might have provided a perfect opportunity to get Iran and Al Queda fighting each other, instead of America having to fight both seperately.

You’re welcome! And if you want a cynical explanation of the Pentagon’s design, well, what if Daimler-Chrysler helped pay for it’s construction and that the Pentagon design was an “homage” to the Chrysler logo? But without the star. An early form of product placement as well as corporate-government relationship, perhaps! :-)

Based on the theories of Dr William Campbell Douglass, many believe that that HIV was genetically engineered in 1974 by the World Health Organisation. Dr Douglass believed that it was a cold-blooded attempt to create a killer virus which was then used in a successful experiment in Africa. Others have claimed that it was created by the CIA or the KGB as a means to reduce world population

President Franklin Roosevelt provoked the Japanese attack on the US naval base in Hawaii in December 1941, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn his fleet commanders. He apparently needed the attack to provoke Hitler into declaring war on the US because the American public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. Theorists believe that the US was warned by the governments of Britain, the Netherlands, Australia, Peru, Korea and the Soviet Union that a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was coming and that, furthermore, the Americans had intercepted and broken all the important Japanese codes in the run up to the attack.

Here what it is said about JFK connection to the movie Seven Days in May

“President John F. Kennedy had read the novel and believed the scenario as described could actually occur in the United States.

According to Frankenheimer in his director’s commentary, production of the film received encouragement and assistance from Kennedy through White House Press Secretary Pierre Salinger, who conveyed to Frankenheimer Kennedy’s wish that the film be produced and that, although the Pentagon did not want the film made, the President would conveniently arrange to visit Hyannis Port for a weekend when the film needed to shoot outside the White House.”

Well, I was referring to the shady depiction of the powerful mega corporation Tyrel, the continuing argument as to whether Deckard is or isn’t a replicant, and the way they can be programmed with memories and go about not knowing what they really are (Rachel). But I suppose those are really more thematic elements than truly conspiratorial.

#578 – “Has anyone ever noticed that the Pentagon is a magical symbol, also used as a five pointed star in Satanic worship? Did you know that the parcel of land that the Pentagon was built on suggested the design since it had the rough shape of a five sided pentagon?”

In the case of the US Pentagon, it is a pentagram within a pentagon and given that the Pentagon was built on a slum known as Hells Bottom, this suggests that it carries with it some very heavy bad energy.

I have to wonder where the world’s other major military centres are built and what they look like, as in Russia, China, India and various Middle Eastern nations.

“174. boborci – October 8, 2011
172. Taking day off to work on this show. Have been working on Trek non stoip every other day, promsie.”

“484. boborci – October 10, 2011
482. Nice — just for posting that, I can tell you that we have 95 pages of actual script. Burning midnight oil to finish asap.”

Considering that he already wrote months ago, that they are working on the script, that doesn’t mean much. Who knows how many pages are needed or how long they need for one page. I think we won’t see the Star Trek sequel before summer 2013.

” I don’t think there would be a dramatic change here in the USA if empirical proof of the details of the plot and all those who were involved were revealed present day. The entire world has a much thicker skin and viewpoint now. Things change.”

That sounds like you agree with me. The revelation of the allegedly Kennedy conspiracy wouldn’t have a big effect, if it would be proven right in the HERE AND NOW. Too much time has past. Some truths just lose their potency over time. It is like with someone who was sentenced to a death penalty, but is in reality innocent. If his innocent is proven before his death, he can at least enjoy his remaining years in freedom, but if it is proven too late, it doesn’t really matter any more. His honour may have been restored post mortem, but what does honour matter to a corpse?

If the Kennedy conspiracy is true and would have been revealed in the 1960s, the world may look different today. But I wasn’t speaking about this. I was wondering, why people in the year 2011 are still so fanatic about the Kennedy conspiracy. I don’t see why they think, it is still so important TODAY. It seems they believe, that the world would dramatically change, if the allegedly truth came out. I just don’t agree with this point of view.

Can’t remember if anyone has mentioned this one, but there’s also a conspiracy theory surrounding the murder of John Lennon. Without getting into all the details, the theory is that government right wingers considered Lennon a radical. They had him under heavy surveillance for years, following him, tapping his phones, etc. When he re-emerged from retirement, the right wingers were afraid he’d stir things up again. I suppose this theory isn’t any more far-fetched than any of the others, especially when Peace is such a radical idea.

In cases like these (and I think it is counterproductive, even deceptive, to describe them all as “conspiracy theories”) all we have to work with is the facts.
The problem is, people are generally emotional beings who like to weave stories, stories that support their particular world view. They base their arguments on the flimsiest evidence, and without a firm foundations of facts become lost in a murky sea of conjecture.
All I ask for is facts. Clean facts that have been honestly and dispassionately gathered. Then we can proceed to the stage of forming a hypothesis and using these facts to either prove or disprove that hypothesis.

For example: @ 494 Keachick (or her other half) have asserted that the World Trade Center collapsed because the jet fuel which poured into the “cantilevered core” was superheated to 7000 degrees deforming the metal on a microscopic or molecular level, leading to massive structural failure. And number 7 World Trade Center collapsed because of a shock wave effect.

Well, that’s interesting, but jet fuel burns at 1400 degrees. Steel melts at 2750 degrees. These are facts.
What evidence do we have of a ram-jet effect that would super-heat jet fuel within those towers? None.
The core is just a massive column of steel beams. The are not “cantilevered;” the floor’s beams may be cantilevered from the core however.
Where is the air from below that would superheat the fuel? There is very little because the towers burned with black smoke, visible for miles, indicating a relative lack of oxygen. Not exactly the kind of fire one would see with superheated gaseous jet fuel.

As for the shock effect, wouldn’t number 7 collapse when the shock wave hit? Also I believe that number 7 lies to the south of the twin towers, on the side opposite the impact. I live in New York and I was home that day. I saw the whole thing live. Number 7 collapsed in the evening. Quite suddenly. This was a conventional steel frame building and there never had been such a collapse of this sort of building due to fire. As you yourself ask “Why should 911 be any different?”
And lastly I heard the president of the Port Authority say about number 7, we had to “pull it,” meaning demolish it. What are we to make of that statement?

@495 dmduncan points out : “When you post unpleasant facts that others are not aware of and are not accustomed to seeing, it isn’t crap that’s being thrown, it’s an aversion to uncomfortable realities that makes some feel like crap is being thrown at them. But it’s not. The ugliness is in the facts and in those who created those facts, not in the posting of them.”
No one like to have their worldview smashed. It is quite painful.

@545 The facts are that Jeff Gannon/James Guckert did run a business called Hot Military Studs.com and he WAS a male prostitute. Despite the cover as a “journalist” he was probably there to service someone on a regular basis as he got a day pass every day to the pressroom at the White House.
Hypotheses regarding whom include: White House press secretary Scott McClellan, who was openly gay, Karl Rove (sexual orientation unknown) and the president himself. Take your pick. It matters not. The story is that a prostitute had security clearance and access to the White House.

One thing I love about Star Trek TOS is that you have two heros who have very different approaches to solving problems. Captain Kirk may jump to conclusions based on few facts but profound insight, and being the hero, he is of course, he’s always right.
The other takes a more plodding approach (he of course would say logical.) Mr. Spock does not make conjectures even when the answer is staring him in the face, as in “Devil in the Dark.” He STRONGLY SUSPECTS that those silicon orbs are eggs but he doesn’t KNOW for sure.
So he doesn’t voice his opinion, lest he draw the derision of Dr. McCoy.

In the real world it would be wonderful to be able to jump to conclusions and save the day like the characters in a drama, but the real world demands a more Spock-like approach.

Gather evidence. Use science. Prove or disprove the hypothesis.

As many have said jumping to conclusions has led us as a nation down the path of ruin. And when there are evil men in government, even one, it is so easy to persuade even the good guys to take the leap onto the road to Hell.

“Alternative suggestion for Secret Cabinet’s president since Bruce Greenwood is not available: Laurence Fishburne.”

Excellent choice. Avery Brooks would also be great in the role. So would Bruce Boxleitner or Victor Garber.

Jimmy Smits might be a good choice for the role of VP. He turned out to be quite a revelation in The West Wing.

I had a flash of inspiration and figured out a suitable role for James Spader. He’d be perfect the play the President’s wily, quick-thinking, morally dubious (but basically benevolent) Chief of Staff. Imagine Boston Legal’s “Alan Shore” but with much more power.

Dipping my toe into the waters of this mega-thread briefly to throw out yet another conspiracy for Bob. (One of the few I think has merit.) Haven’t seen it mentioned here yet. TWA Flight 800 exploded near Long Island in 1996 killing all aboard. Official explanation is a fuel tank exploded, however a large number of eyewitnesses saw an ascending object (like a missile) going towards the plane. Terrorists with a shoulder fired missile? Military exercise gone wrong? Something else? Might be a good basis for an episode of your new show Bob.

Fun fact:The Human mind is build to see connections everywhere. Thus we do see figures in clouds and eyes in the forest. And thats why we pay too much attention to coincidences. (It makes sense: See a connection that isn´t there is better than not to see a connection) The big point about all conspiracy-theories: For most of them it is waaay too hard to plan such big things through. Boing fails to coordinate different corporations for the construction of it´s new DreamLiner, and these are smart guys! (compared to our politicians).
Not all conspiracy-theories are false, anyway. I am not sure hat really happened in Dallas, and there were large secret societys in the middle ages. But theories about a fake moon-landing or 911 are bullsh**
It´s a very different thing to USE a situation (e.g. use 911 to start war in iraq ant pearl harbour to get engaged in WWII) than to plan it self.

To the weapons of muss destruction in Iraq: The informationen presented in the UN were lies. This was a big affair here in Germany, because these “informations” were rumors, that the german secret service, the BND, send to the americans with the information they aren´t useful as there was just ONE source, who lied before. German politicians knew that, this was why Germany, France and Russia opposed the war in Irag, but (without russia) engaged in Afganisthan.

One last point: Naivity isn´t as a bad thing as you think! As an academic i have to rely on informations from others. There is too much information as one individuum can know everything, so if there is a minimum amount of sources, that are trustful, i think it´s true. (Even academics lie to get attention, but than other people try to proof it) It´s the only way we could engeneer new things, because we have to trust others with their results. Same goes not only for engineering and physics, but also for history und thus politics.

I don´t think a conspiracy-show is a bad thing, it could be very entertaining, but they shoould be taken with a grain of salt.

I´m very concerned about Star Trek on the other side: Star Trek is a naive place, where people (even strange aliens) have to trust each other. Please don´t forget that while writing Star Trek2!

Whew! I am TIRED after reading all of that. THIS friends, is the reason we love Star Trek so much. Trek shows us the future we want to embrace. Not a future full of half-truths, half-facts, conspiracy theories and assassinations, but a future of an evolving mankind. Where everyone is equal, where exploration is imperative, where the unification of all peoples is paramount. Although we may never see things totally come to fruition in this way, Trek gives us a chance to dream for a few hours and look at the way we want to be. To quote the best Starship Captain of all time, “That’s what this starship is all about…that’s why we’re aboard her”! Oh, and Bob…get some sleep…you’re gonna need it!

what about you do a thing about the presidential book of secrets that the president s they so highly guard from anyone know about or hide from public view do or do they not each have such a book.& what secrets/conspiracys are in them.

Thanks Bob and Harry I am ordering the book via Amazon- “JFK Why He Died and Why it Matters”-

#542 Interesting about Amelia Earheart- She was a fascinating person, who I enjoyed reading about since I was a girl. She inspired me to fly, though I never finished obtaining my pilot’s license due to many outside factors. :(

I guess it just depends on the readers personal beliefs, and maybe personal experiences and the seemingly most credible information or citations. I try to have an open mind and get the most reputable information available but most of the time side with neither view but rather observe for further actions that may sway me one way or another later. Of course this is difficult to do with JFK or a happening in the past.

One “conspiracy” I would hope to see covered Bob, is how big pharmas profit hugely in creating illnesses requiring the pharmas medicines to cure or prevent them. In 2009, Baxter the giant pharmaceutical company “accidentally” sent out to 18 countries, flu vaccines (for the pandemic of that year) that contained both H3N2 and H5N1 live viruses. Had the scientists in the Czech Republic not tested the vaccines on ferrets prior to vaccination of people, the ferrets died showing a serious error had occurred that could have created a new strain of flu, causing a potentially more serious virus or pandemic.

An excerpt from the article:

“People familiar with biosecurity rules are dismayed by evidence that human H3N2 and avian H5N1 viruses somehow co-mingled in the Orth-Donau facility. That is a dangerous practice that should not be allowed to happen, a number of experts insisted. Accidental release of a mixture of live H5N1 and H3N2 viruses could have resulted in dire consequences.” (there are stringent rules in place in the labs to prevent this kind of accident)

“While H5N1 doesn’t easily infect people, H3N2 viruses do. If someone exposed to a mixture of the two had been simultaneously infected with both strains, he or she could have served as an incubator for a hybrid virus able to transmit easily to and among people. That mixing process, called reassortment, is one of two ways pandemic viruses are created. There is no suggestion that happened because of this accident, however. “We have no evidence of any reassortment, that any reassortment may have occurred,” said Andraghetti.” (a World Health Organization or WHO spokesperson)

While this spokesperson downplays the implications of such an accident, the article explains how difficult it would have been to have been a “simple accident”. Unfortunately, some of the articles references that support the stance that this may not have been an accident are outdated from the source and goes to a dead link. There are other sources on this topic on the web but may not be seen as reputable. At the time of this happening, it was on several news sources considered reputable, but again, I am having difficulty in finding them.

630. Ill have to disagree with you both. Obviously, if it turned out that the man who ran the CIA for four years, was vice president for 8, president for 4, and father of president for another 8, then ALL OF THEIR DECISIONS WOULD COME INTO QUESTION. Our foreign policy would completely have to be re-evaluated, and Americans would realize that American exceptiinalism is a fallacy. The reason for the widespread resistance to the truth of JfK’s assassination is precisely because it is so paradigm changing. It would cause us to question every thing we think is “true.”

How could anyone live in a world without so-called “conspiracy theories?”
There would be no Shakespeare or Sherlock Holmes. No drama of any sort.
If everything was as it seemed and all men had only good hearts, they would want nothing better than what is best for their fellow man. How boring!

To believe that we live or could live in such a world is to ignore much of human history. America is a strange place. All other countries and civilizations admit to having a dark side. Populations are controlled either by coercion or by religion.
America will never admit to having a dark side. We don’t torture people. The CIA does only good work for national security. Corporations care about you. There are no skunkworks, no Fort Detrick, no Plum island, no covert operations.

Here we control people by ignorance. We strip their minds of any sense of real history and replace experience, facts, and knowledge with whitewashed American dreams:

Every little boy can be president
This is the greatest country on Earth
If you ain’t rich, blame yourself

And if someone dares to look at the man behind the curtain or even mention that there is a curtain, that person is labelled a conspiracy theorist.

Move along. There’s nothing to see. Go back to sleep.

P.S. Conspiracies crop up quite frequently in Star Trek. Wasn’t that what “Star Trek VI” was all about? Or “Conscience of the King?” or collusion between Romulans and Klingons? or the Orions playing boths sides against each other and sending agents disguised as Andorians to Federation meetings.
The 23rd Century is not a bright and shiny place either. It’s just that their conspiracies are not our conspiracies.

But so many Americans already hold a low opinion of their government, whether it stems from bureaucracy, incompetence, over-reaching foreign policies, or all the above. The sudden revelation that JFK was struck down by a 20th century Brutus would, in my opinion, be of little consequence to public opinion. More than likely it would be met with a collective shrug as everyone tries to deal, to survive in these less-than-stellar times, and only possibly answered with a few words to the effect of: “Well, that figures.”

And believe it or not, American exceptionalism would continue, because it is not solely based in the faith of a president or any other elected office, nor in the rose-colored memories of any one man or woman. It comes from those exceptional pieces of paper at the National Archives, and the belief that whatever is wrong with this country can be made right.

Like Star Trek, a country based on the idea of self-improvement can never completely fail, just as long as those ideals are remembered and renewed with each new, each “next generation.”

632: “Hypotheses regarding whom include: White House press secretary Scott McClellan, who was openly gay, Karl Rove (sexual orientation unknown) and the president himself. Take your pick. It matters not. The story is that a prostitute had security clearance and access to the White House.”

Pitch to Bob for new Saturday morning cartoon; title reminiscent of another cartoon, but subject matter TOTALLY different:

@593: Read Dead Ryan; kids have been complicit…, even exalt the assault in rhyme. Schools continue to perpetuate the violence – encouraging children to test their ingenuity against the fragility of this harmless species (in the name of “Science”!) and callously tallying those which survive the classroom egg drop against those which are scrambled.

Well, earlier I mentioned Iran and the threat it poses. So, today I turned on the news, which featured a story about an Iranian with (alleged) connections to the Quds Force and also the Mexican drug cartels, who plotted to kill a Saudi Ambassador in Washington D.C. The suspect has dual U.S. and Iranian citizenship.

Seems Iran is exploiting the open borders between Mexico and the U.S to stage terrorist attacks in the U.S. and showing the world it feels it has nothing to lose.

I’m not sure Iran can be deterred without the use of force. Remember too, Iran’s repeated threats of annihilation against Israel.

There’s two rifles in the photo and the red-lined one looks like it could be a Mauser, which looks like a 1903 Springfield. It’s hard to see but it has the right shape. The Carcano is obviously not a Mauser.

Given that the last country time we invaded a country it was under completely bogus pretenses, I would think you would be more discerning in your judgements. Particularly when it is now A FACT that the ATF was selling guns used to kill us to drug cartels.

I don’t know, but when a country such as Iran has a history of co-ordinating terrorist attacks, taking innocent people hostage, threatening Israel with nuclear annihilation, helping Syria in the slaughter of its citizens while cracking down on its own people, arming Hezbollah, and concealing its nuclear program underground, I would say that yes, indeed, that Iran has proven not only untrustworthy, but a serious threat.

Also, just because the ATF is selling guns to the drug cartels doesn’t mean that Iran isn’t using them as a proxy. Both things can be true. Which probably is.

And by the way, just because Iraq was invaded on a false pretense doesn’t mean Iran is being superficially elevated as a threat too. Remember, that Iran had aided Al Queda during the 90’s, including the Khobar Towers attack in Saudi Arabia. Several of the 9/11 hijackers boarded flights in Iran.

I would say there is plenty to be worried about in regards to Iran. The Israelis certainly are.

You’re a well meaning guy, Bob, but your statements remind me of Neville Chamberlain, the Prime Minister of Britain who didn’t believe that Adolf Hilter was a bad guy.

683. Iran has not premptively attacked anyone in a hundred years, unlike us and its neighbors. Show me the quote where they threaten israel with nuclear annihilation in any context other than self defense.

We are surrounding Iran through our illegal wars. It is rational for them to take a defensive posture against us.

As for their alleged aid to Al Q, We aided Saddam. Sold him WMD in fact. Where is your outrage over that?

“Our foreign policy would completely have to be re-evaluated, and Americans would realize that American exceptiinalism is a fallacy.”

I think most people in the USA and the world are already completely aware, that the USA isn’t perfect.

And why should the foreign policy change suddenly? The current government is doing, what they think profit the USA in some way and/or get them votes in elections. That won’t change, just because the history books had to be altered somewhat.

Iran’s current president has said that Israel should be “wiped off the map” a number of times. He also referred to that country as “a stinking corpse”.
He’s a Holocaust denier, too.

The Bush administration apparently was getting help from the Iranians in toppling both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. Yet, in both of those countries, U.S and NATO troops have been injured or killed from Iranian made weapons and roadside bombs. I’d say Iran had manipulated the aftermath of 9/11 for it’s own interests.

I would say that Iran has actually benefitted from the U.S invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. It was surrounded by enemies before the war, now they are surrounded by a wounded superpower who is losing the battle in Afghanistan and bleeding economically at home. Iran’s primary deterrant was Saddam Hussein, but with his overthrow, the Islamic Republic has been able to expand its military and nuclear program. Also, the brief Hezbollah-Israel conflict in 2006 was set up by Iran as a show of strength.

As for aiding and abetting Saddam Hussein, I agree with you. It shouldn’t have been done. But it doesn’t matter now. Because Iran has had many opportunities to co-operate with the international community but they’ve chosen defiance.

But your point about Saddam Hussein is a red herring, since I was only mentioning today’s news.

Also, the fact that Iran hadn’t preemptively invaded another country in a century is moot. The regime of Iran has proven more stealthy, sneaky, dishonest, fanatical, and calculating. They prefer to do things by proxy, such as using Hezbollah as it’s weapon against Israel and the U.S., or by arming the Medhi Army in Iraq.

Well regardless of what Iran is doing you cannot justify attacking it out of the fear that it might attack you first. You can’t base a war on mere intel because intel is sketchy and dubious as the absence of WMDs in Iraq proved. You’d be surprised at what things DON’T happen when you don’t give in to fear, and you don’t listen to the warmongering conmen who want you to believe they can predict the future.

#678 This thread is about a TV series where the protagonists look into what some consider to be conspiracies or uncover conspiracies of their own. It is, therefore, natural that people might discuss what they or others perceive as being a cover up/conspiracy, whether it is to do with JFK assassination or the government covering up the fact that aliens from other planets have already been here… It’s all “grist for the mill”…

#669 – “Nah, Sequel all about loving little tribbles and feeding them for peace on earth.”

Oh Bob, please do not jest with my tender wee heart…:)
Of course, that little beagle will be there to wash and provide warmth for those little tribbles as well (Actually, for REAL, our dog Shadow frequently washed our guinea pigs and had them cuddled up next to her and is still protective of them, even though she ignores them now, for the most part…)

#678 This thread is about a TV series where the protagonists look into what some consider to be conspiracies or uncover conspiracies of their own.

***

Well, Bob said it was about protecting the people or the nation or the world from conspiracy realities, which makes me ask the question: Is the president’s Secret Cabinet going to have factions which disagree about the mission, purpose, and methods of the Secret Cabinet? Conflict within the group?

704. I mean no disrespect, and I genuinely salute you. You are a hero. Period.

Nonetheless, Iran sees our involvement in Iraq as illegal and as a threatening move against them. This is a rational interpretation of our actions. They are acting logically given what they know and believe.

I very much regret having this debate with you because you don’t deserve anyone questioning your sacrifice.

Well look, the same can be said about what American weapons are doing to the people of Mexico, no? And the ATF is letting the guns go there.

The American military is filled with great men and women who serve and who sacrifice. I served as well. So I know. They die, or they come back busted up, or suffering from PTSD and unable to integrate back into society. And I would like a Washington that deserves to command those men and women. And that is something we have not had for a long time. The military sacrifices. Washington never does.

Here is a Current conspiracy.
last year when the Govt Bailed out G.M and Chrysler with all of our Tax money it sure was suspisious that the Govt went after Toyota with all of this so called Sudden Acceleration. After all of the fuss with the media and trial lawyers the U.S Govt got N.A.S.A to Investagate a Car Company. Know what N.A.S.A reported when they were done. They could not find any Sudden Acceleration from any of the so called complaints that were brought forth except for 2 cases of Floor Mat entrapment. Talk about a Conspiracy.

Anyone on this thread assuming any moral equivalence between Israel and Iran is hopelessly deluded after far too many years in the industry echo chamber.

Liberals scoff when the liberal media gets called out, yet this very thread is a perfect embodiment of the mindset of media industry liberals. In short, the laundry list of media idiot-think includes:

-Unscrupulous powers control the lives of little people
-Respectable historical figures were liars and not to be trusted
-the Military is the worst offender of all
-You have no chance playing the game by the rules
-America is usually in the wrong and takes advantage of other countries
-Only Liberals are smart enough to see the “truth”

Liberals always think of themselves as “mainstream”, because they only surround themselves with people who think the same way.

America is and HAS BEEN the greatest force for good in the world. ANY CHILD has a chance to become President. YOU are master of your life. The Military is full of America’s best, brightest, and most honorable. No human has ever been perfect – historic Americans should be judged by their fruits, not minutia.

#632 My other half was writing from memory so it is possible that 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit is wrong. He did not call it a “cantilevered core”.

“Well, that’s interesting, but jet fuel burns at 1400 degrees. Steel melts at 2750 degrees. These are facts.
What evidence do we have of a ram-jet effect that would super-heat jet fuel within those towers? None.
The core is just a massive column of steel beams. The are not “cantilevered;” the floor’s beams may be cantilevered from the core however.
Where is the air from below that would superheat the fuel? There is very little because the towers burned with black smoke, visible for miles, indicating a relative lack of oxygen. Not exactly the kind of fire one would see with superheated gaseous jet fuel.”

In your earnestness for facts, you did not say whether you were using Fahrenheit or Celsius. Let me translate –

1400F = 760 C or 1400 = 2552 F
2750F = 1510C or 2750C = 4982F

so what temperatures are we actually talking about? Without fahrenheit or celsius, those figures mean nothing.

In film footage, there is tipping. I don’t know which tower it was, but it was tipping over as if its top had been sliced off.

The Twin Towers were the first of its type to be built, from an architecture and structure viewpoint. The last tower of the two was opened in April 1973 and construction began in 1966. The lead architect was Minoru Yamasaki and he developed a tube-frame structure system which also allowed the buildings to sustain seismic activity and high winds. According to a documentary, probably the same one my husband watched, the architects/engineers had also factored in the possibility of a plane crashing into the buildings accidentally, because of high levels of flight traffic over the New York/Manhattan sky line. The planes were smaller then – less weight and less fuel carrying capacity, among other things.

As for the smaller building collapsing later in the day in what looked like a controlled demolition – well, it may have been just that, as a result of the shock wave effect rendering the building structurally unsafe. Lots of buildings in Christchurch have faced controlled demolition for the same reason. Sometimes another after-shock does the job for the demolition guys…

1) Did the impact of the two high octane aviation fuel laden 767 planes alone cause the Twin Towers to collapse or did someone “help” the disastrous impact of the aircraft along? I think the answer is NO. The planes slamming into the buildings and exploding did the job.

2) It was clearly a conspiracy – but who were behind it? Was it just Alqueda or were others, closer to home, involved as well – a collaborative conspiracy? Now, this is where the plot thickens for some people…

By the way, Obama reached out to Iran a couple of years ago. How did that work out? I don’t think it made that country any less aggressive.
Although it did spark a movement of dissent, which hopefully doesn’t get wiped out under the repressive regime.

#694.

Well, I’m not in favor of a preemptive strike on Iran, unless hard proof is produced that they are going to launch an attack. But it doesn’t mean we should ignore it’s actions, nor excuse them.

I also agree that the west has committed/participated in a number of actions against Iran, such as deposing a democracy in favor of the pro-Western tyranny run by the Shah, aiding and arming Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons he’d use against the Iranians, etc.

But I will apologize for bringing this topic up as it didn’t belong on this thread. I didn’t mean to be rude, or so one-sided about it either.

That’s not a conspiracy. That’s a normal covert spy operation, particularly for Cold War era 1953. Why is that any more noteworthy than Russian-backed coups around the globe? Your side was wrong about Hiss, wrong about the Rosenbergs, and in large part was wrong about McCarthy. Cold it was, but it was still War.

Last I looked, there really haven’t been any Goldfingers or Dr. Nos. Spies don’t really exist to fight supervillains. They exist to foil, sabotage and manipulate enemy countries for the greater good, usually to prevent shooting wars and massacres.

Now as for Obama exposing and sheepishly apologizing for 57 year-old covert activity and getting nothing in return? Well, that’s about par for the course for him, isn’t it?

One person gets to be president every four years. ONE. Sometimes the SAME person stays president for TWO terms, making it an EIGHT year run, thus removing the chance of someone else to be president for that term.

And there are a lot more children in my neighborhood alone than can EVER actually BE president, so what does it even mean to say that “any child” has a chance when it’s actually true that most children NEVER have a chance?

We are not born all having an equal chance. Some have more and better chances than others.

And it’s the same thing with anything else. Not every child can be the CEO of a corporation. Who’s loading trucks if everyone is a CEO? Never gonna happen. And because it’s not going to happen you can’t criticize people for being where they are as if they just didn’t try enough. Many are not going to “advance” no matter how hard they try because there’s no place for them to go and they can’t start a company of their own for a number of reasons, and then they die.

720: “That’s a normal covert spy operation, particularly for Cold War era 1953. Why is that any more noteworthy than Russian-backed coups around the globe?”

It’s just as bad! That’s not the model I want my country to imitate! If you want to be as savage then you can’t pretend to claim any moral high ground either. That’s ends-justify-the-means thinking. And you share that in common with ruthless liberal ideologues who think the same way.

No. Life is fair, I think. Often hard, but fair. People are not, and not, most particularly, in the ways that they insert themselves between what people need and what nature gives freely to all per their right to exist, collecting fees as it were theirs to give.

And nothing stops a person from dreaming, if he is so inclined to dream which not all people are, but his own desire to give up in his pursuit. And that comes at different times for each of us for different reasons, and sometimes not at all.

But apart from the dreaming it remains true that not all will be this and not all will be that. And that I think is how the world will be at its happiest, with diverse people content doing diverse things instead of all struggling in a back-biting fight to be or have everything the same.

666 and other links: You get around. I would have bet good money I’d seen all the old footage there was. EVIDENCE OF REVISION managed to include good stuff I’d only seen in edited form before. That’s a very well made little documentary and the source (Wing TV) contains a large variety of other compelling titles. Thanks.

A tidbit some may not know: Cronkite’s bio explains why his first few on-air bulletins were voiceovers on a CBS news bulletin title card. TV cameras took 20 minutes to warm up back then. He was on the air for over six hours before he realized he wasn’t wearing his jacket and his necktie was loose.

How did the Harper fragment manage to lay there for over 28 hours before being found? It was reportedly found in the street, which cannot be true as by then it would have only been a greasy spot. Even if it was in the grass the whole time it seems it would have been found sooner. And of course, now it is gone.

@725 boborci. Nope. If you had posted that before Obama’s ill-considered and worthless apology, I would have said “so? and?”. Isn’t it the president’s duty to act in America’s best interest around the world? Is there any country on Earth that doesn;t do the same? There was always the chance the covert action could have failed, and then been exposed. Eisenhower took that risk. It succeeded, and the better for everyone including the Iranians.

That is until CARTER f’d it all up by doing just what Obama is doing – pressuring and punishing our friends over petty infractions, while rewarding and apologizing to enemies.

Did the world end when Francis Gary Powers blabbed instead of taking that cyanide pill? Nope. People accept that we have spies, and they do what they do, just like they do for EVERY country out of necessity.

Hello DM Duncan. Actually every child who is a U.S. citizen does have a chance to be president. The chances are mathematically extremely small, but the chance is there. I would roughly estimate this chance to be 1 in 50 Million, given population and the number of presidents within 1 average human lifespan.

And at that point a “chance” has no meaning. It’s an abstraction without any bearing to the real world. Something you calculate in your head, not something that will ever be real for the vast majority of children. It CAN’T be. It’s literally impossible.

I am simply a realist. Just because an old conspiracy gets revealed, doesn’t mean, that it will change the world. There will still be unscrupulous people in the present and future, who will do everything in their pursuit of power and wealth. Wars, coups and conspiracies won’t just suddenly stop. The revelation of the allegedly Kennedy conspiracy wouldn’t deter any power hungry, unscrupulous, current politicians/organizations/families/companies worldwide to try something illegal again.

The Kennedy conspiracy was so long ago. Current governments/politicians/organizations will simply blame their predecessors and wash one’s hands of responsibility. I don’t see, why it should have big consequences for them and therefore nothing significant will change.

And the revelation of this old conspiracy had what big effect in the world? I don’t see any effect. Obama gave a lame apology for the crimes of past US governments, an obligatory empty “Let us look to the future!” phrase and that is it. Nothing big happened. Too much times has past.

There doesnt seem to any “effect” because the effect is still happening now, this very moment.
I see no evidence that there’s been any sort of reform in how the status quo opperates. The same game that happened long ago is still being played right now in present time.

I’m sure there is a lot of things that this country has done that the Govt. Does not want us knowing about. here is a great Example. Human Radiation Test on American’s.

If you have any lingering thoughts that the government’s failure to disclose radiation experimentation on humans was driven by misguided national security concerns, throw them in the nearest nuclear waste dump. At least some officials knew what they were doing was unconscionable and were ducking the consequences and covering their tails. A recently leaked Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) document lays out in the most bare-knuckled manner the policy of coverup. It is desired that no document be released which refers to experiments with humans and might have adverse effect on public opinion or result in legal suits. Documents covering such work field should be classified `secret,’ wrote Colonel O.G. Haywood of the AEC. *1 This letter confirms a policy of complete secrecy where human radiation experiments were concerned.
The Haywood letter may help explain a recently discovered 1953 Pentagon document, declassified in 1975. The two-page order from the secretary of defense ostensibly brought U.S. guidelines for human experimentation. in line with the Nuremberg Code, making adherence to a universal standard official U.S. policy. Ironically, however, the Pentagon document was classified and thus was probably not seen by many military researchers until its declassification in 1975.2
As these and a steady stream of similar reports confirm, for decades, the U.S. government had not only used human guinea pigs in radiation experiments, but had also followed a policy of deliberate deception and cover up of its misuse of both civilians and military personnel in nuclear weapons development and radiation research. While the Department of Energy (DoE) has made some belated moves toward greater openness, there are clear indications that other federal agencies and the White House have not yet deviated from the time-honored tradition of deceit and self-serving secrecy.

Here is more about Radiation Test and even some Admittence by the U.S Govt.

CRACKS IN THE WALL OF SILENCE
The Clinton administration’s first halting step toward taking responsibility for past government misdeeds occurred on Pearl Harbor Day 1993, when DoE Secretary Hazel O’Leary confirmed that the AEC, her agency’s predecessor, had sponsored experiments in which hundreds of Americans were exposed to radioactive material, often without their consent.
That O’Leary had decided to break with her agency’s long tradition of secrecy and deception was something of a surprise. After all, she came to the job after a career in the nuclear power industry. But, confronted by a media firestorm over the government’s Cold War nuclear experiments, O’Leary was left with few options.
Her decision to confirm some government abuses and reveal others was precipitated by a series of reports by journalist Eileen Welsome in the Albuquerque Tribune last November and the nearly simultaneous release of a Government Accounting Office (GAO) report on radiation releases. *3 Following a six-year investigation, Welsome uncovered details of five experiments in which plutonium was injected into 18 people without their informed consent.
The GAO report, meanwhile, is an important finding that government scientists deliberately released radioactive material into populated areas so that they could study fallout patterns and the rate at which radioactivity decayed. It profiles 13 different releases of radiation from 1948-52. All were part of the U.S. nuclear weapons development program. The report concludes that other planned radioactive releases not documented here may have occurred at … U.S. nuclear sites during these years. *4 The disclaimer suggests that a good deal of information about radiation experiments remains locked away in government files.
Top DoE aide Dan Reicher pulled O’Leary out of a meeting last November just before the story broke to warn her that People were injected with plutonium back in the 1940s, and there’s a newspaper in New Mexico that’s about to lay out the whole thing. *5 O’Leary provided information about experiments at major universities, including MIT, the University of Chicago, California, and Vanderbilt. Experimenters exposed about 2,000 Americans to varying degrees of radiation. These numbers may grow as more information about experiments is released.

DELIBERATE ATMOSPHERIC RADIATION RELEASES
Nuclear researchers did not limit themselves to small groups of selected guinea pigs or large groups of soldiers under orders. The U.S. government also deliberately released radioactive materials into the atmosphere, endangering military personnel and untold numbers of civilians. Unsurprisingly, the people exposed during these tests were not informed.
In four of these tests at the AEC’s facility at Los Alamos, New Mexico, bomb-testers set off conventional explosives to send aloft clouds of radioactive material, including strontium and uranium. When the AEC tracked the clouds across northern New Mexico, it detected some radioactivity 70 miles away. According to a Los Alamos press officer, there may have been as many as 250 other such tests during the same period.25
Nor was this intentional release the largest. During the December 1949 Green Run test at the Hanford (Washington) Nuclear Reservation, the AEC loosed thousands of curies of radioactive iodine-131 several times the amount released from the 1979 Three Mile Island disaster into the atmosphere simply to test its recently installed radiological monitoring equipment. Passing over Spokane and reaching as far as the California-Oregon border, Green Run irradiated thousands of downwinders, as civilians exposed to the effects of airborne radiation tests are known, and contaminated an enormous swath of cattle grazing and dairy land. *26 A team of epidemiologists is now looking into an epidemic of late-occurring thyroid tumors and other radiogenic disorders among the downwind residents in eastern Washington state.

You are confusing “real” with “possible.” You can matematically prove that any child in the U.S. could become president by looking at the last series of presidents and comparing that to the population at large.

It is rather simple to counter your argument here. If no child in the U.S. had a chance of becoming president in say the last 50 years, how do you explain how we had 10 presidents serve, each who had been a former child in the U.S.?

It is not debatable that several children currently alive will become president. And if you look at this history of U.S. presidents, you will see that many came from moderate means, and several came from poor means, so that argument is weak at best.

I see that you are confusing your opinion that no kid today has a real chance of becoming President with the matematically provable fact that a handful among tens of millions of children today will in fact be a future president of the U.S. This is a fact, and is not debatable.

“It is not debatable that several children currently alive will become president. And if you look at this history of U.S. presidents, you will see that many came from moderate means, and several came from poor means, so that argument is weak at best.”

That’s true, but I think that U.S. politics has become such that, if you aren’t already a multimillionaire with coporate friends and donors, then you aren’t going to even get a sniff at becoming a senator, or congressperson, never mind president. I just think things have changed too much over the past twenty years. George W. Bush benefitted from having a rich and powerful family, as well as a brother who was conveniently a governor in Florida during the 2000 elections.

Obama may have started life poor, but he ended up in office because of corporations paying his way there. The same companies he’s going after to raise taxes on. I also suspect he had help from the inside, from other politicians. Money and cronyism are the two ingredients to becoming a leader of a country these days.

If Joe Schmoe, for example, wanted to run for president, or the senate or congress, he’d need not only to enroll at an Ivy League school such as Harvard or Yale, but he’d have to have connections with politicians in Washington, or at his local or state government. He wouldn’t be able to depend soley on his middle class neighbors for campaign contributions, but major powerful multinational corporations who’d only pay him if he promised to base economic policy around their interests.

“If you become aware of another keyword that trashes posts, please post it. By alternate spelling, of course.”

No problem, although I have absolutely no idea why #733 was originally trashed. I tried posting multiple variations of it before and after #733 today, and they’ve all similarly disappeared.

Read that link in #733 while it’s still available — it’s incredible stuff, and it’s not even a conspiracy “theory”. The SEC have confirmed that those mysterious huge trades really did occur in the days leading up to 9/11.

Bob Orci,

You should definitely read that link too. You’ll find it fascinating (and disturbing), and I expect it’s also exactly the sort of storyline that would be perfect for “Secret Cabinet”. Except, of course, that this actually happened in real life, and it still hasn’t been explained.

Except it’s always been about money and cronyism to become the leader of a country. It takes money to pay for campaigns and friends to introduce you to the right people who know people who know people…. Even Lincoln knew about networking. ;)

But if you think about it, that’s no different than any other business—start-up capital + networking + marketing = greater possibility of succeeding.

DM Duncan, I think you should go back and re-take junior high school math. If you can’t accept mathematical facts, then I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. I am talking facts and mathematics, while you are simply throwing out some riduculoous conclusion of ” it’s just impoossible” despite the fact that it is matematically possible and can be proven conclusively.

Ref 751. Read Dead Ryan, did you realized that 2 of the past three presidents have come from families of poor to moderate means. So where is this new trend you are talking about of presidents coming from rich families?

Now, I think you are really saying that you have to be rich and be connected to be able to run for president. Sure, I agree with that. But again, Obama and Clinton, as children, were not rich, so the point I am making is that any child can grow up to be president. You need to be rich as an adult, but not a child.

#761 Bob said that he and Damon were busy writing as he read and posted here. He’s gotten good at multi-tasking. He’s allowing his “feminine” side freedom, for the benefit of all…

The story is done. They are honing the dialogue of various characters. Anyway, that is my considered guess. No doubt, some of the dialogue already written might get changed, once the actors start their thing etc, or not. They may add dialogue, even a scene, or not.

#765 – OK. C it is. So there is still time to insert a wee scene of Admiral Archer and/or Admiral Pike presenting “my captain” with his little beagle mascot. Come on, you know what you want to write it in, if, of course, you haven’t already…or

Perhaps Damon might like to do it?

I gotta keep trying…:)

Yup – I heard that. Others have also said that I can be trying at times…doesn’t mean I can’t be right (well, a lot of the time, maybe).

Bob, Lostrod and RDR- (and anyone else I may have missed re: Iran and current events) what do you think of Iran’s most recent claim that they think the U.S. is attempting to divert the attention of American people by the latest claim about the assassination plot of the U.N. ambassador? This is conspiracy in the making, and it is RUMORED that 100 senators or congressmen have been called to meet today in regards to Iran.

I find it all confusing to be honest. Who do we believe? I want to believe the U.S. but I’m not certain because of our leaders (past and prestent) indiscretions. (Bail outs, sell outs, etc. etc. etc.)

I am kind of on the fence about nation building anymore and America becoming an isolationalist country again. It only adds to our debt but what do you do if you leave countries like Iran unchecked. Why are we still in Germany and Europe years after WW2?

I agree with Mr. Orci that Iran’s actions are irrational. This is hardly surprising considering some of their outrageous claims in the past.

Perhaps they are emboldened by getting away with other events such as the Iranian Hostage Situation. That was technically a direct attack on America and yet we had an administration did nothing for a year. That one event is probably the epicenter of the radical Islamic threat we face today.

Let’s calmly study the information as it unfolds rather than jump to conclusions. That’s why I do not rely on one single source of news. I read articles from several media sources daily.

I’m basically an optimist. I have faith in our system. I could not live with an attitude of “trust no one” or “it must be a lie”. What kind of life would that be.

hmmmm… Where is boborci now? …he knows I figured it out!…. I’m a genious… LOL

boborci is an undercover agent here in trekmovie.com… he is serving “Trek Sequel Agency “… he should confuse us and divert our attention from what matters… “Trek: …Whatever” of course… the head of the Agency is none other than… JJAbrams that drives everything there from his “Bat-toilet”…

Regarding the Iran conspiracy, I wonder if the news about actress Marzieh Vafamehr is true. She apparantly has been sentenced to receive 90 lashes for her appearance in the movie “My Tehran for Sale”…or is this U.S. propaganda?

OT: I’m sure that you heard the news that Seth MacFarlane would like to do a Star Trek series. He is not the first one who expressed his desire to revive Star Trek on TV after the end of Enterprise in 2005.

Are you aware of any plans at CBS/Paramount to bring Star Trek back to television ?

It wouldn’t be out of the question to think Iran’s leaders act irrationally. After all, they’re religious zealots who claim to speak for Allah.

Also, Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States, despite knowing it’s military strength is the greatest in history. He didn’t care that America has nuclear weapons.

So to automatically dismiss the idea of Iran launching an attack on American soil is naive. A lot of people dismissed Bin Laden’s threats prior to 9/11.

Now, I’m willing to concede the allegations may be trumped up for public relations and political purposes, but that doesn’t mean Iran is the innocent party. Only in this circumstance. And knowing about Saudi Arabia’s past support for Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda, I would not dismiss the notion that this could be a Saudi plot to get the U.S. to attack Iran, which is Saudi Arabia’s primary rival across the Strait Of Harmuz.

and “puppet of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-banking complex” is so MSNBC 1968 (ooh, a time paradox… are you familiar?)

I’d be happy to send a VW Bus to come pick you up.

Seriously – Bob. How can you bristle at my calling out leftwing Hollywood after your postings here? Do you honestly think your postings here about America in any way represent the conservative viewpoint? Or even that of most Americans? Congratulations at being a big success in Hollywood, you certainly fit in.

Are you familiar with the famous Pauline Kael quote “I can’t believe Nixon won. I don’t know anybody who voted for him.” That’s how it is to be prominent in the media. You just don’t know anybody who thinks differerently than you (or is brave enough to admit it in a company town).

And by the way, my knowledge doesn’t come from Fox News. Credit years of experience associated with Daily Variety during the old Silverman years for that.

795. I understand that being a Star Trek fan means you think you can lean everything you need to know about other cultures in an hour of TV here and there, but it’s actually not the case. Your statement is dangerously simplistic and uninformed. Love you anyway.

#776 boborci – “Given that they are obviously aware that we are willing to invade just about any country who crosses us…”

#721 – “America and Americans have great humility… And we think poorly… very poorly… of ingrates.”

So am I to assume that if the US invades any country, those who get invaded complain, will be considered “ingrates”? I wonder what penalties might apply to these ingrates by the humble Americans whom Odkin refers to. Interesting indeed…

You’re right, I’m no expert on foreign cultures. But I do know that there are nutty people from all over the world, including Iran. Pretending that the leadership in that country is honest, and good-hearted is incredibly naive, and flies in the face of what countless opposition members and refugees have claimed. A lot of people are suffering under their brutality.

@800 boborci. I hope, as a writer you can appreciate the distinction between anti-American and UN-American, which I would be loathe to call anyone but the worst offender.

And sorry, I think calling the following statements are prima facie ANTI-American:
-calling the presidency “a puppet of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-banking complex”
-calling our Iraq action “illegal” and under “bogus pretenses”-
lending credence to fantasies about the US government mass murdering the WTC occupants.

807. Obviously, I want to bat for the home team. But whenever you ask anyone why they fear Iran, they misquote the President of Iran saying he wants to wipe Israel off the map, which he never said (see link above for article on the subject). And when nine out of ten people say that is their primary reason for distrusting the country, then we have to start distrusting the sources that give us our daily info about them. The very same sources that said Iraq had WMD and was linked to Al Aqaeda. Iran may be our enemy, but before we get into our, what is it now, 7th war? Can we actually take a look at it with more effort than the last six?

809. Assuming I believed that Dick Cheney was behind 911 wouldn’t make me anti-american. it would make me anti dick Cheney.

“Bogus pretenses” is not my singular opinion. It is now part of the historical record. Surely you will disagree, but when the first cabinet meeting Bush ever had was about overthrowing Hussein (recorded in a book by a member of his own cabinet), it is difficult to argue otherwise. Since when is pre-emptively invading a country that has not threatened us and poses no threat to us not an “illegal action.” Since when is torturing prisoners not an illegal action? We executed soldiers in previous conflicts for water boarding! Where is your outrage? I complain because I am the OPPOSITE OF ANTI AMERICAN. I don’t want the corrupt actions of a few to tarnish our values and our potential.

810. boborci – “but before we get into our, what is it now, 7th war? Can we actually take a look at it with more effort than the last six?”

It is a shame that the U.S. is viewed as a bully more than ever before in history. The scary thing is that there does not appear to be an end to violent situations between people and nations. In fact, most people believe that even a “first contact” would be motivated by occupation.

While discussing differences in philosophy, if referring to “Hitler” or “Nazis” is seen as an indication that those using such terms have already lost the arguement, what can be said of those who prefer a generous sprinkling of “communists,” “liberal” “bleeding-hearts,” “elitist,” “Hollywood,” “unamerican” “anti-American,” descriptions throughout their rants, other than they have been the recipients of the former rather than the latter?

810, if the numbers are matching up. I hear you Bob, and you’ve made me think a little more, which is a good thing, though I tend not to buy in conspiracy, except for JFK, which always smelled like a cover up, and Earhart’s mystery. I found myself agreeing with parts of Vultan’s points about such things, and dmduncan’s warnings about accepting “official” explanations. …And Commodore’s postings on human testings. Good points all around.

“I think it is wonderful that no matter the color of your skin, or where you were born, anybody can grow up to be a puppet of the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-banking complex” – Bob Orci

Odkin – re-read what Bob Orci actually wrote. He never mentions the president. I had personally taken it to mean that ANYONE, including, perhaps, the president of the US himself, can grow up to be a puppet of “the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-banking complex”.

Many other countries argued against the US going into Iraq because they believed that the USA did not have enough reliable evidence that Iraq actually had WMD’s or was behind the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. But then, you clearly do not see anyone else’s opinions and understanding to matter, only the TPTB in the White House and the Pentagon. You know, sometimes they can get it wrong. With Iraq, they did get it wrong and the ordinary people are still paying for it. What with the tyrant Saddam Hussein on one side, the fanatical religious sects on the other and the US Military on another, they were caught between a lot of rocks and some very hard places.

Thanks for the input Bob, Lostrod, Craiger and others that do so without the usual mudslinging to the people kind enough to post. Calling people Anti-American?? I have high regard for certain posters (yes, pleural) and take offense at this as well. People talk bravely behind their monitor…

Because we were talking conspiracy, I was curious as to what were the thoughts here considering the current claims made against Iran by the U.S. and U.N. and vice-versa.

I certainly agree with Bob and hadn’t thought of the fact that it would be irrational for Iran to make such threats considering what the U.S. is capable of and has demonstrated repeatedly. On the other hand, Lostrod, you have a good point about the lengthy time lapse to retrieve the Iranian hostages several years ago. It will be for a lack of a better word, interesting to watch what unfolds, and hope for the best. Because unless there is hard evidence to the contrary, these two points is at the bottom of this newly presented problem.

Also Lostrod, I didn’t mean to have a knee jerk reaction to today’s news, but wanted to see what opinions were formed as to the possible outcome of such statements, both U.S. and Iran. I also read and sift through many reputable sources before coming to any conclusion. As an American, I do want to believe what is being told by the U.S.

However, through the years, I must say that though I am an optimistic person, it is within my own circle of my family and friends that I maintain my positive outlook and my trust are placed. It is not through the parade of politicians that infiltrate my television or radio with their antics, or the signs in my neighbor’s yards. I live a very happy life though I have little trust in those I don’t know well. I guess I am just cautious. I will offer assistance to any stranger who is in need in and outside of work in any way possible, (and strangely have had to do that many times) but I do so making sure there is an “out” of the situation should the person in need be someone with ill intentions.

I have little faith in our system at this point in time. Maybe it’s because of the profession my husband chose as well as mine. (He a Police officer and me an ER nurse and medic in large city) It all began on a much lower level of justice within the city, and state. I witnessed and was told some horrible things by “people” (that I had to render treatment) of the atrocities that they bragged about to me and my co-workers.

Of course, I would pass the information along to the authorities, they did their job, (most of the time the lower end criminals would already be in custody) but in the end most of the time, they would be let loose again to do it all over again. The way it is done, it looks good on paper. 100% conviction rate in Montgomery County! (where we resided) But how was this done? Plea bargaining. These people who shot, stabbed, raped or robbed and stalked people were given opportunity that their victims weren’t!! This outrages me to this day. Yet the prosecutors bragged like they actually enacted justice in favor of victims of violent crimes.

Then, I began to notice the upper level justice wasn’t doing so well either. Then skip over that and that takes you to the politicians who propose and pass or deny legislation protecting the American people. Politicians taking money from big pharma, oil companies and oil clean up companies, bankers and the list goes on. Ponzi schemes and predatory lenders, etc. etc. These people were doing things that in my opinion they should have been jailed for. (Madoff of course was but there were/are more-) But they weren’t.

I do need to add that I believe in our military. I believe the majority have the purest intentions of keeping the rest of America and anyone else they are sent to protect safe from harm or injustice. Same for our police officers, fire fighters, medics.

Long explanation of my thought process, I know, sorry. But just because someone who is in power tells me something and expects me to believe it whole heartedly just won’t happen with me. It may be a flaw to be a skeptic with these matters, but I don’t want to be blindsided by being overly optimistic about people (both here and abroad) who seem to have only their own agenda at heart.

On a much brighter note, I am however, extremely optimistic about the new movie!!

On Bob’s show Fringe, Agent Olivia Dunham explains that when a person dies in a paranormal manner, the FBI tells the family that he or she is missing. I believe that the government covers paranormal stuff up. There are two reasons. The first one is to avoid public panic. The second is more related to UFOs. If the U.S. does have crashed UFO ships, they’re not going to tell anyone since the government could back engineer the advanced technology. I mean UFO technology could be the greastest secret since the A bomb.

I wonder if the Star Trek sequel deals with Kirk uncovering a conspiracy…I hope he gets to do with some real exploring as well.

On TV the other night, I saw pictures taken with the A.L.M.A. telescope in Chile of two galaxies colliding. I can’t remember much more than that, but the photos looked amazing. Imagine seeing something like that on the BIG screen, possibly in 3D!

@811 “Since when is pre-emptively invading a country that has not threatened us and poses no threat to us not an “illegal action.”

-1) we were in a state of hostility with Iraq since the Gulf War ended in a CEASE FIRE. We were not at peace with Iraq. The cease fire required compliance with an inspection regime that Saddam repeatedly violated. The Iraq War was simply the delayed conclusion of the Gulf War, for non-compliance.
-2) Congressional approvall was obtained
-3) UN approval was obtained

You can argue with the motives or the quality of the evidence but calling it illegal is simply an ideological reaction to something you don’t like, reinforced by immersion in DailyKos/MoveOn/Sheehan/ANSWR talking points.

“Since when is torturing prisoners not an illegal action? ”
-Since POW protection is only extended to SOLDIERS of COUNTRIES. See, playing by the rules of war is how an army qualifies for Geneva Convention coverage. Free-lance un-uniformed guerillas do not earn the protections afforded proper soldiers. Soldiers are doing their job. “illegal combatants” are murderers. A subtle difference, but if we don’t treat them differently then there is no incentive to fight by the rules.

Nevertheless, your conclusion that waterboarding is torture is at odds with military experts. Waterboarding is NOT the same as Japanese water torture.

You not liking something does not override the findings of the president, Congress, Military Commanders and the UN.

Now, if you want to talk about illegal actions, how about Obama complying with the War Powers Act re: Libya? No prior ceasefire, no Congressional approval, no intelligence findings of a threat, no UN consultation…

This is absolutely ridiculous. It looks like one of Trekmovie’s moderators (presumably not Anthony) has been completely randomly deleting my posts. It’s even worse because some of the conspiracies mentioned by other commenters on this thread really are pretty “out there”, whereas the subject I flagged up has been publicly confirmed by the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) and professional journalistic sources like the Journal of Business, CBS News and The Independent. People here were already talking about 9/11 in great detail, so my posts weren’t even off-topic. I’m not a “9/11 Truther” either.

However, those events really did happen, they’re still unexplained, and (as I keep saying, in my posts that keep getting randomly deleted by someone), they’re exactly the sort of thing that Bob Orci would be particularly interested in reading about.

I’ve just tried repeatedly posting various edited combinations of the post detailing exactly what I’m talking about, but the filter won’t even let me post those either. Did you manage to get a chance to read the link I supplied earlier before that post inexplicably disappeared ?

I’ll summarise it again, assuming that this post isn’t randomly targeted for deletion by one of Trekmovie’s moderators again: In the days just before 9/11, there were suddenly huge, unexplained trades in the stocks of companies directly affected by the attack. The investors involved still haven’t been identified, but the authorities who investigated this have directly stated that, in their view, the evidence indicates that the people concerned had advance knowledge that the attacks were going to occur.

“I believe that the government covers paranormal stuff up. There are two reasons. The first one is to avoid public panic. The second is more related to UFOs. If the U.S. does have crashed UFO ships, they’re not going to tell anyone since the government could back engineer the advanced technology. I mean UFO technology could be the greastest secret since the A bomb.”

Remember our discussions on Trekmovie a few months ago about Lockheed Skunkworks CEO Ben Rich. Apparently he said (in front of at least two witnesses) that we secretly already have interstellar spaceflight capability.

Ok. It’s UnAmerican to be Un american.
Ok I said it. So Sue me.
Hey Bob Orci. With all of the Talk about kennedy. Who do you think is truly behind his Death. I think L.B.J is truly behind it with the help of the Mob and or the C.I.A

I think Iraq was never a real threat to the USA. Iraq is far away from the USA and in contrast to them Iraq never had tons of military ships/planes and soldiers is vast numbers around the world. Iraq has also only 1/10 of the population of the USA and is technological and economical far behind the USA.

Even if they had big atomic bombs, I think it is hypocritical for the USA, to attack them because of this. The USA own at least 30 % of all nuclear weapons on the planet. They really have no moral right to forbid any other country atomic bombs.

I also don’t see the USA attacking for example China despite China being a much larger threat to the USA than Iraq ever was. The big difference is simply, that Iraq was never seen by the USA as a real threat. There was no real risk involved for their own country. No chance in hell, that Iraqi soldiers would invade on US soil. A war just seems so much less dangerous, when your enemy is resounding inferior.

They thought conquering Iraq will be very easy, fast and quite cheap (it really didn’t take long, until Saddam Hussein was fleeing) and establishing a USA friendly government there, would easily be worth the time and effort. It would have secured Iraqi oil and an US friendly Iraq may have helped them to keep the peace in the whole Middle East.

A large part of the oil reserves of the planet are in the Middle East. If they all would stop exporting oil because of a big war, there would be a huge oil crisis in the USA, Europe and other countries. Israel is also part of the Middle East and a big conflict between various countries there would be something, Israel wouldn’t be able to keep out. As the USA seem to act as Israel’s protector all the time for various reasons, they would have to get involved, too.

Of course they also completely underestimated at that time, how long it will take until they can get their troops out of Iraq again. Turning Iraq into an US friendly, well working, ideally democratic country, is obviously not as easy as they thought.

One Star Trek-related question tha bothered me: How could Kirk and Spock beam abord the Narada?

I mean, doesn´t the Narada has… SHIELDS or something? Then why does the Captain and the first Officer beam on board of the enemy ship and not a well equipped battle team? I mean, if it´s so easy to beam on the enemy ship, why doesn´t Earth beam all it´s soldiers on board?

BTW wasn´t it established that around the Narade no beaming was possible while the drill shoots on the planet? So again, how could Kirk and Spock beam over while Nero was drilling San Francisco?

#836. Kirk and Spock beamed over to the Narada before the Beam started. Once it started Sulu said they were on there own. Also. Since it was just a minning ship it was not really equipt for that kind of battle. But had just regular Hull plating for the 24th. But in the 23rd it was superior to anything that Star Fleet had and the weapons from the 23rd were no match. Example. In the Series Enterprise she had Pullerised Hull Plating. In the 22nd it could with stand phaser and torpedoe hits. But on the Enterprise Edp.In a Mirror Darkly when the 23rd century Ship U.S.S Defiant fired her photon Torpedoes at the Hull Plating of the NX class was simply no match and was destroyed quickly.

In the 24th Century the Enterpeise E could easily take on the Narada and beat her. Go back 125 years and the Enterprise will have a very hard time.
Also. The Narada had Torpedoes from late 24th Century and fired against early 23rd would make the Narada seem like giant’s.

Commodore Mike, LBJ killed Kennedy. He had help, but he orchestrated it. LBJ and his buddy Bobby Baker were about to face criminal charges after the tour of the South was finished. They seized the Presidency just under the wire. As soon as LBJ became President, all the charges disappeared.

LBJ was a lifelong scumbag and criminal. If you read what he did over his lifetime, it will curl your hair!

Hmmm… JFK. Well, we know, from known documents and trasncripts of conversation, that Hoover and LBJ directed the investigation to only focus on Oswald (detractors, please don’t waste my time until you google these things for yourself — it is in the historical record). It is too simple to say the CIA or any other government entity was behind it. For a good summary of the complexity of figuring this out read DEEP POLITICS by Peter Dale Scott.

After thousands of hours of research, I concluded that LBJ was behind Kennedy’s death (as I stated in my above opinion). A few years ago I was at a dinner party hosted by a woman (she’s in her 80’s now) who was the manager of a popular Boston saloon back in the early 1960’s. When the subject of JFK’s assassination came up, and I shared my opinion about LBJ having killed him, the hostess chuckled and in her droll voice replied, “honey, the day Kennedy died, that night in the bar, everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY was whispering about how they KNEW LBJ was behind it!”.

I smiled and remarked, “Kay, I find it rather amazing that an answer it took me decades of research to determine, you had whispered in your ear that very day!”

817. And it doesn’t mean any of those conspiracies are true. But I take issue with folks who want to shut down debate and not consider all angles.

***

Yes! There actually are “rules” to a rational discussion. Two people in a rational argument are obliged to honor the other person’s obligation to prove his case. If someone calls you “crazy” or an “America hater” then there is obviously no need to actually consider the facts you are presenting or the case you are making because one cannot rationally consider the words of someone who is “nuts” or who “hates America,” so use of such a tactic dishonors the obligation the one who uses it has to cooperate with the other person in his effort to prove his own case by ending the debate using a dirty trick before the questions are settled.

From memory, the UN initially was not behind the invasion of Iraq. There was considerable arm-twisting done on the US’s part to get “agreement”. This arm-twisting came from a country who did not always pay their UN subs (whereas other smaller country members and often poorer, managed to pay theirs). It took the billionaire, Ted Turner(?), to pay America’s unpaid UN subs.

The US, by getting rid of Saddam Hussein who was also proving to be a pain in the neck to many of his own people, did hope to install a government more compliant to US wishes, especially when it came to having a source of lots of cheap oil. However, the war caused the destruction of most of Iraq’s basic infrastructure and plunged it back into the Stone Age. It was then up to many other UN Peacekeeping forces, one of them coming from NZ, to try and clean up the mess and protect the civilian population caught up in the murderous fracas. The NZ Army were also engineers, plumbers, builders, nurses, doctors and cooks for the people in their designated areas.

Unfortunately, (our) NZ UN Army Peacekeepers have become all too familiar with having to attempt to clean up the mess and deal with the human tragedy brought about the various despots, religious nuts and in some cases, the USA.

I sometimes wonder how much NZ is compromising (morally) by being a friend and ally of the USA (ie the government, not the general populace). Odkin’s postings remind of a person I know. She has this notion of – whatever is mine is mine and whatever is yours is mine. She is not very bright either, which makes communication and reasoning more difficult. To be fair, I think this is also probably the long held attitude of any powerful person, organisation or nation – SADLY.

BTW, what the hell is a “truther”? Too much silly jargon and labels are being chucked around.

Bob, using United Nations supported arguments isn’t likely to be effective with far right thinkers – many of whom seem to think those who put any stock in the U.N. are UN-American.

Did you really question Obama’s birth-place? If I’m not mistaken, there was absolutely never anything but malicious rumor to suggest he wasn’t born in Hawaii. Both newspapers covering the area where he was born reported his birth on the day following his birth. That would have to have been one heck of a conspiracy plan.

Harry, just wondering, if LBJ wanted Kennedy dead so he could have the presidency for himself, if he was so power-hungry, why didn’t he run for a second full term in 1968?

Of course his popularity was very low due to his foreign policies (Vietnam) and he would have most likely lost to Nixon in the election, but it seems strange to me that a man who would go so far as to have someone murdered to achieve a—THE—seat of power would so easily give it up. Thoughts?

By the way, I’m not defending the man. I think he was an all-too-typical scumbag politician, but a murderer…? I’m not so sure….

Vultan, the simple truth is that Lyndon Baines Johnson had really bad heart disease. The walls of his heart were paper thin. He stepped down because he was not long to live. He died in January 1973. That was a big motivator as to why he conspired to kill Kennedy. It was his one and only shot (no pun intended) at being President.

Please look into his background and history. A bigger scumbag never walked the face of the Earth!

Dance little sycophants, dance! I haven’t written any scripts or created any MarySue characters, but if only I hadn’t antagonized him, maybe he’d let me ink a Star Trek comic!

bob, you completely ignored my point that there is (by DESIGN) a huge differnece in the treatment accorded to SOLDIERS vs freelance terrorist illegal combatants. Soldiers have Geneva protections. It’s a priveleged reserved for those who put on a uniform and fight by the rules of war.

BTW, UN approval is a nice formality, but last I checked we were still sovereign. And Monday morning quarterbacking against the US by Kofi Annon is WAY low on the list of things to care about.

Harry. I agree with you. he wanted kennedy Dead so that he could Escalate the War in Vietnam. With the Business that the Mob was doing with Drugs and with the Business that Govt Contractors were doing with making weapons was a big time financal winfall. Kennedy was not going to escalate anything in Nam and in fact he was probly going to pull troops out. if that were to happen then the Mobs with there Drug Business and other Comanys with there Weapons and other contract business would have lost Billions of $$$$. Also. The KGB wanted Kennedy dead because of the Cuban Missile Crises and how Kennedy stood up to the Soviet’s in regard to Cuba and Berlin Controlled Russia.

All in All Kennedy was not going to play with American lives and go to Nam. So. I believe they got Oswald to be a scape goat since he was in contact with the KGB. The Mob and some in the CIA and a couple of secert service agent’s worked out a plan to Kill the President so they could.
1. Help there Business and make Billions.
2. Get L..B.J to become President.
3. Escalate the Cold war a bit so they could make more money.

After Kennedy was shot it was not much later that L.B.J escalated the War in Nam and of course that meant that the Mob and other Contractors could ramp up production and make there money.
So. It all came down to power for L.B.J and Money and Power for certen Corparations.

I’m still not sure about it, but I will definitely keep an open mind as I read more about LBJ. What bits and pieces I do know about him… aren’t flattering, and it wouldn’t really surprise me if he was indeed the Brutus behind it all.

Have you ever watched the movie “The Right Stuff”? No conspiracies there, but it does offer a wonderful, profane depiction of Johnson (as played by Donald Moffat). Provides a good deal of comic relief, too. I only wish the real man had been so harmless…

You should not trust any source of information controlled or influenced by Obama, because you are going to get scripted information from people too comfortable to ask questions. Don’t even bother with Snopes. It’s a cesspool. Wayne Madsen is now charging a subscription fee, and he deserves to get it too, because you get what you pay for and the info you get for free from the MSM is mostly trivial.

Suffice it to say that the links to the CIA between Obama’s mother, father, grandfather, and grandmother are there. Occidental was known to be a recruitment center for the CIA in 1979, and Obama’s first job out of Columbia was working for a CIA front company. Conspiratorial options regarding his background expand and become less dubious after discovering those connections.

The pop battle between left and right that rages on talk radio and TV is an induced mass delusion, a Hegelian control mechanism. So when Perry or any of the others say something that sounds outrageous and pisses you off? That’s why they’re saying it. To keep the conflict going so you get mad at and say nasty things about the “righties” and they say nasty things about the “lefties” and everybody exists in a state of conflict; there is no WAY Perry as president ends up being anything other than another Bush or Obama in practice, which is always going to be a betrayal of grassroots supporters on either side. Rush Limbaugh and Thom Hartmann — AND their audience members — are ALL victims really believing that this orchestrated battle culminating in political victories for each side is a reflection of a spontaneous and genuine conflict between people who made up their own minds and see the world in different ways.

See my post # 41. My father was in DC on 11/22/63 and went to his grave convinced LBJ was responsible for JFK’s murder. He never considered any other possibility.

The fact that JFK/RFK and LBJ/Hoover despised each other and both Hoover and LBJ would soon be removed from power by JFK/RFK is JFK Assassination 101.

The reasons are myriad, including LBJ’s ties with Bobby Baker, Billy Sol Estes and the mafia (in Dallas and in general). These LBJ liabilities were close to being made a public scandal by the Kennedys via their war against the mob.

LBJ was also a longtime close friend of Dallas DA Henry Wade and others in power in Dallas. Wade had a strange habit of addressing LBJ in his letters to him when LBJ was vice president as “Mr. President”.

LBJ was instrumental in getting his friend Sarah Hughes (the female judge who swore him in as president on Air Force One) appointed to her position in 1961. Hughes also had close mob ties, as did Barefoot Sanders, who was promoted with LBJ’s backing as the US Attorney in Dallas in 1961.

The winking Albert Thomas to LBJ on Air Force One right after his swearing in ceremony was yet another LBJ crony who was needed by JFK to achieve his goals within the space program and was also part of the reason for JFK’s ill-fated trip to Texas.

It is often said that this or that potential JFK assassin conspiracy faction could not have done it because they lacked the power elsewhere to cover it up or manipulate the US Government. LBJ was the only person with enough power to control every aspect of the JFK murder. At the same time he salvaged himself from disgrace and impending legal prosecution as well as many of his friends.

If you make up your mind using mainstream sources then the quality of what you think will be no better than the information you absorb from those mainstream sources. And there are people who know that and keep it that way. Edward Bernays wrote a book about it way back. It’s surprising to me that this is still controversial to some when it’s actually all done out in the open. But I suppose it doesn’t really matter what you see when they have so many tricks to make you forget it.

That’s why we need people to start “peeing in the water” they use to drug us. Not too much. Just enough for folks to say “Hey, this tastes funny! What’s wrong with it?” For purposes of this discussion, the “water” is the “media.” All forms of it.

With all due respect regarding Iraq. From someone who was there multiple times, it wasn’t so much the US destruction of the infrastructure that caused so many problems. Rather, the civilian population basically looted everything. They were so used to a dictator controlling everything, they had no concept of providing for themselves.

For example, power stations were knocked out prior to the assault. US forces go in and replace the generators. Locals promptly go in and take them down and sell. All the power lines were stripped for the copper to sell. The Iraqis had no concept of self rule or responsibility.

I went out on convoys to deliver medicine to local clinics. Suddenly there’s a local commotion. Clinic rejects medicine. Turns out its because patients are used to medication and consume more than they should. US fault?

We provided money to build a new school. Insurgents built explosives INTO THE SCHOOL so they could they could blow it up when the kids were inside and I guess, we would be blamed.

This continued right up until I left (weeks ago). Everything we built was turned over to th Iraqis. Buildings were left fully stocked, office supplies,etc. Then trucks would show up and strip everything. Doors, windows, toilets, etc.

Sorry if you think folks have to clean up after the US. Its a two edge swords. We could simply shut ourselves from the rest of the world. Would that be a better solution?

I don’t have the answers. I do the best I can. In 2000, when I deployed to Bosnia, I was attacked on a discussion group for “attacking Christians”. You see, the US went into Bosnia to prevent the slaughter of Muslims by so called “Christian” Serbs. Did the Muslim world appreciate that mission? If they did, they picked a fine way to show it on 9/11.

I’ve been in enough deployments to see how other countries contribute to the actual “boots on the ground” efforts. I’ve had the honor of deploying with British, Turkish, Russian, Italian, Egyptian, Japanese, Australian (great guys), etc. I have many fond memories.

However, all of them invested a fraction of what the US contributed in every deployment I was on. And that is to be expected, because we have a larger infrastructure than all of those combined (Russia, a different story).

Sorry if I rant a bit, especially to you, KEACHICK, because you have been supportive in the past. It’s just that, I’m just hanging out with my grand kids after another deployment and contemplating my future. And I read folks questioning the US in trying to maintain some semblance of order in the world and I ask myself – why?

Everyone has 20/20 vision looking backward, right? I see that in my own life every freaking day. It is so easy to look back say “we should have … ” but that’s not how it always works. I wish I could redo many things in my life, but I live with today.

I’m sorry if I offend you KEACHICK. But I have to say what I feel needs to be said. But it is FROM ME. I’m not speaking for a nation. Neither do you speak for your nation. New Zealand? God, I would love to visit NZ! I personally did not meet anyone from NZ in Bosnia, Egypt or Iraq.

If I get to travel later to NZ, maybe I can look you up.

Yikes. I’m rambling here, but I enjoy this site more than folks probably realize. It’s many times the highlight of my day. What does that say about me :)?

Well, you didn´t get my point. That the 23rd century was terrible outmatched against a 24rd century mining ship doesn´t make too much sense, but is plausible. (Let´s say the Narada is equipped against pirates… No oil-ship with guards on board today would withstand an attack by 17th century pirates, but hey, it´s the future, so why not?

But that was never the point!

The point is: When you attack a planet, you make sure nobody beams on your ship! Even the polarise hull in Enterprise or these funny things on the ground in Insurrection made beaming impossible. So WHY ON EARTH could Kirk and Spock beam on board of the Narada? Anytime else on Star Trek, Beaming Teams on an enemy ship was only possible if the shield of the other ship was weakening, ant at that point, the Narada had not even a scratch! (Okay, from the Kelvin, but that was 25 years before)

So in fact, there was NO WAY how anybody could have beamed abord the Narada (again, if there would be a way, the ship would be full of Earth´s soldiers), and only the Enterprise were able to pull that, with only to persons, because they are Superman and Batman.

Alternate Theorie: Earth is destroyed, everyone dead, and the “happy end” were the last seconds of the mind of James Kirk while he died trying to beam through the defense-system of the Narada.

Or they beamed through a 2 meters wide vulnerable exhaust port leading to the main reactor of the Death StaNarada.

boborci: What do you think? Is there a logic answer or is this a “it´s a d*mn movie!”-question? ;)

@877: Sorry, missed that – who has time or patience to read ALL of these comments?! Yes, I should probably stay out of it, then. But Obama’s birth…? I am curious about sources you considered – but not sure it’s worth reopening that topic.

#868 – “Dance little sycophants, dance! I haven’t written any scripts or created any MarySue characters, but if only I hadn’t antagonized him, maybe he’d let me ink a Star Trek comic!”

Wow, you are a rude and rather inaccurate so-n-so.

“BTW, UN approval is a nice formality, but last I checked we were still sovereign. And Monday morning quarterbacking against the US by Kofi Annon is WAY low on the list of things to care about.”

It is just this attitude that causes most of the world, which btw the US does NOT occupy, to despise the US. You want it both ways – wanting UN approval for everything and anything in order to make your actions look legitimate, yet at the same time, doing everything according to your own rules, no matter what the negative impact might be on other parts of the world. You make, even want, the USA to be arrogant bullies, acting without restraint or any lawfulness. Odkin, the USA is NOT the world, it is part of much wider world! Get it!

Without knowing much, I doubt the Founding Fathers envisioned this kind of attitude, at least I hope not.

#884. Even though the narada was a minning ship it could defend it self. That is why they had Torpedoes. The Reason why Earth did not beam a lot of Soldiers on board is because they did not have time and the narada probly destroyed any ship that came close with her Advanced Torpedoes and that is why The Enterprise hid from the Narada so Scotty could beam Kirk and Spock on Board.

#882 It is an impression I have got from the little information available. I did not want to offend you and I know that many US military personnel (along with the others) do their best to maintain a semblance of order in very difficult circumstances. I did say in an earlier post that the Iraqi people had it coming to them from all sides, including any occupying forces who, rightly or wrongly, believed were also their enemy. It does seem that the Iraqi people could well be their own worst enemies and sadly, looting and general lawlessness can be the major aftermath of any devastation (whether from natural causes or man-made).

I don’t understand why they seemed to go so crazy and sabotage themselves and their children as in stealing from their children’s schools etc…What the?

Unfortunately, I do not read as much as I should sometimes about the intricacies of various wars and I don’t enjoy watching war movies, even though I can appreciate the work that went into making a good movie, like Saving Private Ryan.

You are the first person to explain what it is like over there in Iraq and I really appreciate your contribution to this thread. Thank you.

“You make, even want, the USA to be arrogant bullies, acting without restraint or any lawfulness”

Your post came in while I was composing a rather long winded response to a previous post by you.

However, your subsequent post about us ” USA Bullies” kind of makes my post kind of makes my post relevant. If you consider the USA bullies, then I suggest that NZ stand up and take its rightful place as the moral spokesperson for the world. Where was NZ when Muslim where slaughtered in Bosnia? I didn’t see you there.

Believe me, the USA does not want “occupy the world” (disclaimer – my opinion). That tends to happen because the rest of the world sits back and place lip service to the bad things happening.

Where were NZ folks in Iraq when the local population did not have power for more than 5 hours a day – because local thugs could make money selling copper?

I was posting that we should avoid “backwards thinking” and you continue to blame the USA for doing SOMETHING when the rest of the world does NOTHING and then sits back and blames the USA.

Life could be so much simpler if we could just pick up the phone and talk. I post a response to one response to only find another. Sigh.

Sorry. I’m in the backyard with grand kids after surgery to remove some stuff on my back due to sun exposure in Iraq. All good now. Beer is the medicine. No NZ beer here in Texas , though. Too bad (any recommendations?). Bottom line, small world – let’s deal with it.

@ Lostrod – An uncle who served under Frank Merrill in Burma a lifetime ago told me the world just got too small. He thought that after returning basically intact.

We should have just installed a replacement for Saddam of Iraq the old fashioned way and saved a bunch of resources. Not as many folks profit that way though. In the long run and reality of the deal, the power structure now deems costs are not too high in good Americans lost and the US economy to wage wars so the rich can get richer.

War making no longer is immediately reflected in US citizens having to suffer and pay for them. We just print more deniros. Sooner or later that no longer works. That time is now at hand.

Agree with you on the Aussies and am a longtime fan of the Steyr AUG. If you ever do get over near NZ with spare time, check out the Cook Islands. Very nice.

My dream is to travel more. My military career has afforded me the chance to see more of the world than I ever thought possible as a kid. Australia and NZ have always had a strong appeal to me and hope to see those areas before “I tie me kangaroo down, mate”. If I do manage the trip I’ll be sure to post a shout out here so we can link up.

BTW – I’m not sure how we would have simply secured a replacement for Saddam. Above my pay grade I’m afraid.

I don’t know how it is there, but in USA, less than 2 % of population serves in military.

I do tend to to lurk here on this forum because I prefer to listen in and not make waves in my limited amount of net time. I have to balance out my time. I guess I have more time on my hands now and have jumped in a bit more. Making up for lost time.

Lostrod, I don’t think Keachick is questioning your commitment, or the commitment of others who lay it all on the line for their country, as well as other less capable countries. Maybe I’m wrong but it seemed she was responding to those few among us who believe they alone speak for our nation, as well as what is “right” for others, whether they agree or not.

Not sure we’ve understood each others’ last exchanges, but no matter. You seem to respect everyone and I certainly respect you – in fact, before everyone started posting the feel-goods (and hoping they weren’t the ones Harry was talking about), I was going to say something really nice – but I’ll save it for another time. Suffice to say, far as I can tell, you’re a real gentleman (or I’ve missed your base posts).

I really don’t begrudge open and lengthy discourse; though I admit to a passing and unjustifiable impatience with one topic consuming everyone’s attention to the exclusion of things I wanted to talk about – but that was earlier, and I never stay 5 for long.

Oh and Lostrod, thanks for responding to my post. I see now that you had already responded to others here while I was writting my posts. I started it, then got busy, then posted it way late. Sorry about that.

Wow lots of great info here on this thread… I have plenty to keep me busy reading throughout the winter! Minus of course the “Guide to Mastu..ROFL!!” Harry, Harry…

Thanks for the great discussion here everyone. I think everyone seeks truth in their own way and time, and reading all the opinions and facts here has been very educational. Sometimes what is written can also be easily misread as one feeling when in fact another feeling was intended. I am glad that everyone has been able to discern this in the latter portion of this thread, and conclude to respect one another’s view points. At least for the time being. ; )

I love this quote, “Live as though you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” – Mahatma Gandhi

Lostrod, thanks again for your service and I appreciate your thoughts on these topics. It is refreshing to hear some opinions here from U.S. military personnel…your opinions have more gravitas then say foreign students who decided to stay in the U.S., reap the rewards of life, here, and then tell us how fu*ked up our country is.

And Keachick, why did New Zealanders sit by for decades upon decades while their Australian neighbors deciminated the aborigninals, including a systematic policy of breaking up families that continued into the 1970’s? What happened in Australia was close to Apartheid, and New Zealanders sat idly by and didn’t do a damn thing about it.

Hey, listen, I’m just reading up on this myself. I don’t claim to know a lot about it, but there seems to be a faction of the Jesuits that nobody wants to talk about or confirm. Ultra secret bad stuff. Lets explore it together, shall we? It might be great material for an episode of Bob’s new show.

Hey Lostrod, (or anyone else) have you read the book “Chickenhawk” by Robert Mason? There is a sequel to it as well- This thread reminded me that I have only read a few books about war. But this one was really good.

Just curious, this one was one of my favs I read in a class I took on the Vietnam war. I have read others as well but this one sticks out to me because he was a helicopter pilot, and my brother served in the Vietnam war on a Huey as did the author of this book. The book reads as if you are actually piloting the Huey during the war- it even had a diagram of the actual cockpit.

I almost didn’t ask because if your like me, you may not want to read for leisure about your career choice. I can’t even watch ER shows. It’s then that I nit pick~ :)

Lostrod – I am sorry if you misunderstood my comment about the USA being bullies. I was commenting on Odkin’s post, which gave the impression that he thought it was OK for America to do what it liked and ignore international law when it feels like it. He represents an attitude and I know it is not an attitude that is shared by all Americans by any means, including you, I suspect.

When such attitudes become known by people in the rest of the world, it is easy to feel indignant and unfortunately those with none too noble agendas of their own tend to hone in on that kind of attitude and use it to make all Americans appear bad. It fuels their own ignorance and religious and political prejudices.

I was told by the NZ media that a contingent from the NZ Army was sent to Iraq as part of the UN Peacekeeping force to do as I described in a previous post. There are no NZ soldiers in Iraq now. They were brought home within the last year. However, there are SAS men in Afghanistan and sadly two of them were killed in the last month whilst on separate missions. It is rare that we lose these guys in this way so it shows how rough things are over there.

I don’t know how many NZ Army guys were over there in Iraq, but they were sent as soon as the US decided to go into Iraq.

NZ’s total population hit the 4 million mark around about 2007 – now about 4.2 million

. It is a very small nation located near the bottom of the Southern Hemisphere sitting in the world’s largest ocean to one side, to the west a large island continent (Australia) and to the south the world’s biggest ice block (Antarctica). We are a long way from anywhere, so I often wonder why we bother to go up to the north to engage in/get caught up in what seem to be other people’s conflicts, but we do. We have since WW1, for better or worse. Sense of duty, attachment to our Anglo-Saxon/European people, history and culture – who knows? Except that many Maori have also fought and died alongside us in wars begun and taking place in the Northern Hemisphere…many were encouraged to volunteer for both world wars by their own Maori leaders.

MJ – The issue of how colonizing people have treated indigenous people is a fraught and often complicated one and Australia and NZ are not the only nations with issues to address when it comes to the unfair and often heinous meted out to indigenous people, whether they be Australian Aboriginals, NZ Maori or native Americans living in both North and South America. I don’t know why you are bringing this up when the discussion is about the war in Iraq…

I was very young, so I personally did not know about the mistreatment of Aborigines. In fact, I don’t know if the ordinary Australian knew about the atrocities that went on either, or didn’t want to know. At any rate, the truth is coming out now…I think that one thing that we can count on, unfortunately, and that is – that every government will have “skeletons in their closet”. It all depends on how many skeletons and how bigger a closet, but eventually the stench will be too bad not to be noticed…

@937. OK, I think I also misunderstood your earlier post for being very critical of Americans as bullies, but now I understand where you are coming from. We have our faults, but if it wasn’t for us the world today would probably be divided between the Nazi, Japanese and Soviet Empires….or more likely, we’d be in a nuclear winter right now based on a civilization-ending 3rd world war several decades ago between those empires.

OT – The first trailer for the film This Means War is now out. Our young “captain”, Chris Pine, is looking gooood. The movie doesn’t look too bad either. There is a link to the video on the IMDb Chris Pine message board. That’s all…I am exercising restraint in my drooling…:) Film is coming out 17 February 2012 (US).

And Bob – Please – any news yet on the release date for Welcome to People?

Like I said earlier, the Securities and Exchange Commission have confirmed that this really did happen, so it’s not even a conspiracy “theory”. Someone, somewhere, already knew exactly what was going to happen on 9/11, including exactly which companies were going to be directly affected.

I’m going to try re-posting a short extract from the relevant section again in a separate post below. In #920, Harry Ballz mentioned one of the words that may be triggering the filter, so I’ll edit the extract accordingly.

I concur with the sentiments expressed by other commenters on this thread regarding the bravery and sacrifices involved in your military service. Most of your posts here have also been eloquent, thoughtful, and humane.

However, with all due respect, I have to politely take issue with your remarks in #882:

“You see, the US went into Bosnia to prevent the slaughter of Muslims by so called “Christian” Serbs. Did the Muslim world appreciate that mission? If they did, they picked a fine way to show it on 9/11.”

I’m surprised no one has brought up The Brotherhood of the Bell — leaders in industry, education, etc., who have a secret society that controls a lot of what is going on today. You don’t hear about them as much as you hear about Skull and Bones, and that is not an accident.

The comment I’d posted immediately beneath #944 was visible for a while earlier today. However, it looks like one of Trekmovie’s moderators has subsequently manually deleted it, even though I was directly quoting the conclusions of the Securities and Exchange Commission and other professional authorities. I guess you’ll have to find the relevant Wikipedia article and read the detailed information yourself.

The repeated deletion of the shocking information I’ve been trying post almost sounds like a…conspiracy…doesn’t it ? ;)

I’ll summarise it again, and let’s see if this post mysteriously disappears too: Trading of stocks associated with the two airline companies whose planes were hijacked on 9/11 (but no other airline companies), and stocks associated with the financial companies, defence contractors and other companies directly affected by 9/11, all experienced an unexplained massive jump in trading volumes in the days just before 9/11.

The professional authorities that investigated this reached the conclusion that unidentified investors had advance knowledge of the attacks that were going to occur on 9/11 and placed their financial trades accordingly. However, the actual identify of those investors is still unknown.

JAI, you are correct. That specific comment, after re-reading, was out of line and would gladly retract (if this forum allowed posts to be edited).

The correct wording should have been “If they did, some of them picked a fine way to show it on 9/11″. In the two years I spent in Iraq I got to meet a lot of Muslims. Played with their kids, shared tea with them and it was a great experience to do so.

However, at the same time I did spent a lot of time in the bunkers waiting out mortar attacks by Muslims.

The Muslims that deal in terrorism are not representative of Muslims in general. They just get all the attention.

The same can be said of the “Christian” Serbs who slaughtered thousands of Muslims in the Balkans. Their ethnic cleansing hardly represents the Christian world.

It’s unfortunate that the negative elements of both worlds get all the media attention. For example, why did Terry Jones, the pastor of a tiny Florida church, become the media spectacle when he burned a copy of the Quran? His church consisted of 60 members, yet he got more publicity than the Pope.

At any rate, I will strive to be more careful with the wording in future posts.

You sacrifice personal liberty and family time, and risk your life while the liberals and foreign ingrates piss and moan about imaginary conspiracies that make your sacrifice meaningless.

Ten years now of the same refrain: “The military is evil, soldiers are stupid rubes, the US is an imperialist occupier, the sheeple are brainwashed by Faux Noise and we’re all tools of the evil petrocorporate puppetmasters! But don’t question our patriotism, we support the troops!”

God bless you and your work for good in the world. It IS worth it, and it IS appreciated, particularly by the people with no time to pontificate on the internet because they’re working hard to keep America the greatest country on God’s green Earth.

Odkin, thank you very much your post. It really made my day, trust me!

And I want to thank you for eloquently expressing your views as well on this forum. You help ensure a conservative view of the world is present.

You bring up an interesting point about the treatment of the military. It has been my personal experience that the general population is extremely supportive of the military men and women. I witnessed it most recently departing the plane when I returned to the states for two weeks of R&R. There was a large number of folks to greet us at the airport. People who knew none of us personally, but came out each time a plane load of soldiers arrived. It was touching.

Add to that the regular arrival of “care packages” from schools and organizations mailed to anonymous deployed soldiers. Just reading the cards from school kids got this crotchety old soldier a bit misty eyed.

BTW – Green Beans Coffee has a program called “A Cup of Joe for a Joe” that allows folks to purchase a coupon good for a cup of coffee that the company emails to a random deployed soldier. I usually got at least one per week and they always came with thank you message from the donor. The words were always sincere and I never missed an opportunity to reply back with my thanks to them for their support. Because it’s little things like a cup of coffee from a total stranger than can change a bad day into a good day (well, at least a better day). I encourage everyone who wants to support the troops to sign up for the COJ program.

You are correct that the media’s depiction of the military seems to run counter with the general population. Even the new Superman comic appears to have made the military out as the enemy of the Man of Steel. Sigh.

I salute all of you. Even if I disagree, I respect the freedom to discuss a diversity of opinions here. After all, isn’t that what we’re really fighting for?

@ ODKIN
Perhaps you are referring to people like me when you talk about “foreign ingrates”. Clearly, I need to remind you that some of these “foreign ingrates” may have also lost men on Iraqi and Afghan soil fighting the same war that Lostrod has done. I believe that, like Lostrod, us “foreign ingrates” have as much right to question the actions of those in charge as anybody else, especially when it is their men who are also making sacrifices. This does not in any way demean your sacrifice, Lostrod.

FYI – NZ and Australia have fought alongside the US in every single (major) war since the end of WW2 – Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and probably other smaller ones that I don’t know about. The international community was against ANZUS involvement in Vietnam, nevertheless, right or wrong, we were there.

What I find unjustified and disturbing is your ungraciousness. I just wonder who are the real “ingrates”. It might pay to take a look in the mirror sometime and tell me what you see…take off whatever glasses you are wearing first.

America is not “the greatest country on God’s green Earth”. It is one of many great nations and it behoves us all to continue to keep our nations great in the best possible way.

No, we foreign ingrates complain about sending brave heroes like Lostrod into harms way unnecessarily or unethically. Why you can’t understand that without using rhetoric, propaganda, or misinformation to insult our motives is disappointing, though not uncommon.

That is why some of us are grateful to get the practice in communicating with folks such as yourself. We have a lot of work to do.

@962 That’s a pretty condescending (but wholly characteristic) attitude coming from someone paid millions of dollars for the privelege of wielding the media megaphone. But keep “practicing”, and enjoy the checks from your enablers. As you’ll see next November, Americans will somehow manage to resist the persistent, obsessive pressure of Hollywood propaganda.

Like Jon Stewart and other liberals, you have this attitude that you’re almost uniquely above partisanship and idealogical delusions… that only the little people are stupid enough to fall for silly things like nationalism and religion and political parties and the big okey-doke. But you just can’t see the forest for the trees of your own cherished beliefs and prejudices. You’re not any better than the rest of humanity in perceiving reality in exactly the way you wish to.

Despite all this, you do seem like a very polite and professional person, and a good sport for even engaging in this forum. I’m sure your likeability has been a tremendous factor in your success. Enjoy your time in the 1%!

” ‘They’d buy us beer at the air base *(in West Ruislip, near London, in the late 1960s) commissary and tell us stories about the (Vietnam) war,’ he recalls. ‘One of the things I remember, hearing one guy say is that he hardly ever slept in Vietnam – he was afraid of going to sleep. So there’s this line, “You’ve been running from the man who goes by the name of the Sandman” – you don’t want to go to sleep because you might get killed.'” quote from Dewey Bunnell, member of the band America.

The original three members of America met on the US Air Force base in England where their fathers were stationed, around 1970/71. Their fathers worked for the US Air Force.

I wonder if that is how it is for a lot of soldiers in the field, as in rarely being able to sleep.

What exactly are the conservatives on this thread conservative about? It used to be, to hear Sean Hannity tell it, that conservatives were defenders of the Constitution against those crazy Liberals who wanted to destroy it. If that’s how you want to define “conservative” then I guess you all who call yourselves conservative are going to be voting for Ron Paul, because he’s the only person on the GOP presidential candidate roster who seems to care about it. Everyone else up there is spouting populist rhetoric that has nothing to do with protecting the actual laws of the country from harm. I think if you fellas really start to put some thought into it you are going to find that you cannot rationally defend America being both policeman of the planet while interfering in the governance of foreign nations, AND honoring the Constitution at the same time.

Now I ALSO once took an oath to defend the Constitution against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic, and by speaking out in the same way that General Smedley Darlington Butler did in his day, that is what I am doing today.

While you are wearing the uniform it is difficult to defend the country against the latter threat; you are expected to deal only with the former. But after the uniform is off it’s a different matter, and it’s a battle that every citizen can and should join.

On the ground as a soldier you have a different and more personal reason for doing what you are doing, and your motive is good. But for those who make the decisions to send you to foreign countries to fight foreign people it is a different matter, and the two motivations should not be confused for each other.

Yes, war IS a racket.

“It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.”

“A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small ‘inside’ group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many.”

General Butler wrote that, a warrior of big wars and small ones; a man who received TWO Medals of Honor and lived to tell the tales, and who should have got a third for blowing the cover of a planned coupe de’tat against Roosevelt.

And when a man like that who fought loyally in so many wars then speaks out against them, it is wise to listen to the reasons why.

#965 – “that only the little people are stupid enough to fall for silly things like nationalism and religion and political parties and the big okey-doke.”

When did Bob Orci say that people were silly and berate them for their belief in nationalism, religion or belief/allegiance to any political party? You are putting words into his mouth. And when did Bob Orci infer that he was better than the rest of humanity in perceiving reality?

I think The Big Lebowski, mentioned earlier by Bob, is a good lesson for a movie. There’s The Dude, and I think he’s like most of us, caught in a vise where one side is the crazy conservative father and the other side is the crazy liberal daughter. And most of us are just NOT that way. We’re more easy going. We agree with what makes sense to us at the time and is not the product of some ideological way of thinking, left or right.

And I’m okay with being like The Dude.

Stop peeing on my Constitution, man. You know? Cause this sh*t will not stand, man. It will not.

Nope, don’t even own a gun, although I’ve shot once or twice at the Scottsdale Gun Club. Never shot an animal, although God did put them here for us to nurture and harvest as the tasty food they are.

I’m pretty happy about how my life turned out. I say that, sitting in a cash-purchased 4,000 sq ft home in Arizone suburbia, where I live with my wife, kids, pets, and good health, surrounded by the paraphrenalia of various enjoyable hobbies, Trek among them..

I know calling conservatives angry is the left’s favorite method of projection as they seeth about people daring to disagree with them. But in point of fact I’m happy and optimistic like most conservatives.

I am angry about the profound ignorance making the rounds these days, and how it’s got America going in the wrong direction, and how that means my kids will probably be the first generation with lives WORSE than their parents.

We’re like heroin addicts addicted to government largesse. Now we’re getting sick, and people honestly believe that the solution is more and bigger “hits” so we feel better. I’m angry about that, and how it’s destroying our countrys’ soul and her future.

But I intend to solve that problem with positive and persistent efforts to continue, like boborci, to educate the misinformed.

Oh dear Harry…No, I wouldn’t fight for the rights to get close and personal with the chin. My own inclinations are elsewhere…:) Tom Hardy speaks English English in the film – Yay. Just love his accent. However, after just viewing the trailer again, Tom Hardy is nice but I have to confirm that Chris Pine is “it”, has the “OMG so gorgeous” factor.

Now if I were to follow your reasoning, then Tom should win and get the lovely “chin”, which means I could get Chris…That could work. Sounds like a plan…if only…drool….sigh…oh well…

@969 it’s a George Carlin reference. Another nihilist who was too clever by half, supposing most Americans to be pitiful patsies falling for “the official national bullshit story”. See also: Jon Stewart; and various other media elites.

I am not a (professional) writer. I have written a couple of stories for my own amusement/pleasure. One was a Star Trek story taking place in the alternate universe. I think the term is fanfiction. I have not published it though. It is complete outline but needs work – fleshing out etc, with possibly some parts changed and/or deleted.

@876 “#971 – “But I intend to solve that problem with positive and persistent efforts to continue, like boborci, to educate the misinformed.”
“Hang on. Haven’t you just contradicted yourself here?”

Nope. I can only speak for myself. Others have been entrusted by big corporations with the lucrative privelege of influencing millions of Americans by writing fictional scenarios that inevitably reflect their personal political beliefs. I have one voice. Orci has his, plus a whole universe of plot devices and characters to influence us.

I will say that I have NOT seen anything overtly political in Bob’s work, but when it inevitably seeps through, I now know what it’ll look like, and it’s the perfect liberal media stereotype.

Yes, Odkin, but you have a nasty edge to you. When others here happen to agree with Bob Orci, you label them “sychophants”. Maybe some of us happen to be on one page, while you are on another. To each their own.

Jesuits. VERY formidable group, super educated. I read Malachi (pronounced Mol-Uh-Ky) Martin’s The Jesuits, which was as fascinating as it was thick. That’s where I was also introduced to Liberation Theology, a few years before it was a popular subject when Obama was running for election. Read that book. Martin was a Jesuit, and read also about Martin himself.

@968 I do have some appreciation of Ron Paul’s constitutional approach, but find his foreign policy unacceptable. Protectionism and isolation don’t work in a connected world where rivals are actively projecting their influence to our detriment.

I’m a big fan of Cain, and hope he gets the nod. Unfortunately, the media fix is in for Romney. They’ll use the same script as in 2008 with McCain. Play whack-a-mole on conservatives until they convince voters that wishy-washy Romney is the only “electable” one. That’ll kill conservative enthusiasm.

Once nominated, the media will morph its’ position on Romney. He won’t be reasonable, responsible, and electible anymore. He’ll be a dangerous hypocrite who has abandoned his once admirable principles to become a right wing extremist fanatic in magic underwear who wants to starve grandma.

Hey Harry. I’m pretty much with you on this. I’m not a Conspiracy guy by any stretch but on a few things there are a lot of questions that have to be answered.
On 9-11 there was no U.S Govt Conspiracy.
On Kennedy. Oh yes. Big Time.
On Airhart. she worked for the U.S Govt as a spy.
On Nuclear Radition on U.S Citizens. You better believe it.
On U.F.Os. Is there really any doubt.

A sweet little boy surprised his grandmother one morning and brought her a cup of coffee. He had made it himself and was so proud. He anxiously waited to hear the verdict on the quality of the coffee. The grandmother had never in her life had such a bad cup of coffee, and as she forced down the last sip she noticed three of those little green army guys in the bottom of the cup. She asked “Honey, why would three little green army guys be in the bottom of my cup?” Her grandson replied, “You know, Grandma, it’s like on TV. The best part of waking up is soldiers in your cup.”

980: “Protectionism and isolation don’t work in a connected world where rivals are actively projecting their influence to our detriment.”

No, WAR doesn’t work in such a world. Respect is going to have to be the new currency we mint and trade with other countries.

So it seems like you lean towards the means-justifies-the-ends subterfuge that creates war and kills Americans all out of some certain prediction of how things will turn out if you don’t do all that nasty stuff to other countries.

When Jefferson fought the Barbary Pirates he fought PIRACY against America. But the blood and treasure we lost in Iraq was NOT for 9/11, for some similar offense against our country by the country we invaded. It was blatant BS. For WMDs that did not exist. Now you can say it was for multiple reasons that we went in, but the biggest one that justified our invasion was the notion that Iraq posed a serious threat to America with its WMDs, without which reason it is unlikely that the war would have had enough support. The key reason was bogus.

And after all that death and money lost, George Bush made a joke about not finding them!

Anyone interested in info. Lostrod posted re: buying a cup of coffee for a soldier, check it out. It’s so easy. You can spend as little as $2.00 – can even direct coffee to a specific soldier, if you have his/her email address:

As a matter of fact, some sources have in fact connected the Brotherhood of the Bell to her disappearance. It was thought that once she returned from her round the world flight that she might be about to blow the whistle on some damaging foreign intel that was being white-washed by the state dept, and use that as an entry into politics. The well-oiled politically savvy patrician types in the Brotherhood were not about to let that happen.

Personally, I think it’s sad when the entire country is so divided. Someone, somewhere has succeeded with what could be the demise of the U.S. Whether it be the generations before us, corporate greed, the politicians, will anyone ever REALLY know who is responsible? Probably not. But wouldn’t it be better if everyone TRIED to come together on this instead spewing hatred towards those who think differently? The yelling and name calling and blaming serves no constructive purpose.

We must be entertaining to watch at this moment in time for those who hate us. If we as a people do not comprimise on the expectations we have and rightly expect from our government and our fellow man, in a peaceful manner, then I am afraid our future and our children’s future looks somewhat bleak.

I know it’s not gonna be that easy that everyone sit down and chit chat about what needs to be done, but maybe if there were some real “transparency” and honest dialogue between our government and it’s citizens it would be easier.

Lostrod, sorry to irritate you but I’m afraid that in this context it may not be avoidable if you choose to read what I have to say. If anybody did something wrong, it wasn’t me for pointing out the truth that the persuasive case for war in Iraq was made for a reason given that was false. And it is a fact that it was false. Should I be silent and let the same thing happen again unmentioned, next time maybe regarding Iran? I won’t.

And nothing irritates ME more than the sight of the man who decided to make war, cracking a joke in very poor taste about not finding what the war was supposed to be for capturing, after so much death occurred to make that empty discovery.

So with all due respect, Lostrod, if you want to blame someone, think about who deserves blame, and for what.

With regard for your personal feelings I would never say any of this stuff to you privately, Lostrod, but this is a public forum and a thread about a conspiracy show, and free open speech is on the menu here. We need more discussion about these things, not less — to at least TRY to make it so that such things are decided on more carefully in the future.

And I certainly didn’t say that your sacrifice was meaningless. I’m not omniscient, and I’m no Asimovian Psycho-Historian who can predict the details of the future to say what the consequences will be and to weigh the balance as good or bad, so I cannot comment on any of that. That is for God to know, not me.

What I did say and will always say when it comes up is what we know: The major, most influential reason given was false. And more uncertainty on George Bush’s part, and a little more listening to dissenting opinions, could have saved a lot.

“So with all due respect, Lostrod, if you want to blame someone, think about who deserves blame, and for what.”

I wasn’t blaming anyone. Just saying those type of statements irritated me. I have no problem with disagreeing with the Iraq war. I was referring to blanket dismissal that minimize the casualties. Imagine the child of soldier killed in Iraq hearing someone say their father’s death was worthless.

For those people suggesting “compromise” in politics, imagine this. Two passengers are in a brakeless car speeding towards a cliff. It’s dark and they can’t see very far ahead. One thinks that turning right is the only way to survive; the other is sure that only turning left will save them. They are fighting over control of the car.

Should they compromise by “meeting in the middle” and just keep barelling toward the cliff?

Sometimes you just can’t split the difference. Anything but the right way is the wrong way.

“The military is evil, soldiers are stupid rubes, the US is an imperialist occupier, the sheeple are brainwashed by Faux Noise and we’re all tools of the evil petrocorporate puppetmasters! But don’t question our patriotism, we support the troops!”

Sure, and if it was so easy to know what the right way was, there wouldn’t be so much fighting over that very question. So you are making a circular argument. You are begging the question. Who is right is the very question in dispute. You don’t answer it to another person’s satisfaction just by saying “I AM!”

1005. Odkin – October 14, 2011

Okay, let’s break this down and try to get some clarity.

1. “the military is evil”
2. “soldiers are stupid rubes”
3. “the US is an imperialist occupier”
4. “the sheeple are brainwashed by Faux Noise”
5. “we’re all tools of the evil petrocorporate puppetmasters!”

I’m guessing that’s supposed to be a shopworn list of typical bad things people are saying in here.

Now maybe I’m missing them, and if so I do apologize in advance…but would you please identify the person(s) making those claims and the actual posts where each of those claims appears?

Maxwell House, Folgers – they’re synonymous, to me. Not sure which (or if its both) of them has begun airing the tear-jerker commercials ’round Christmas; but it’s embarrassing how effective they are – if not at brand recognition, at wringing emotion from the viewer.

Foreigners, ugh! They talk funny, they look funny and dress funny. They think differently, have their own customs and don’t have enough sense to acknowledge my natural-born supremacy as an American. And when we go to war for them they don’t appreciate it. Well not me. I never went to war, but I’ve seen plenty of movies. I mean, we invaded Iraq, even after they tried to talk us out of it, and they still don’t thank us. And they’re everywhere, in every country around the world. The place is full ‘em! It’s awful. Did I mention they talk funny?

Oh no, Bob, don’t go! What about my WTP question? When?
And – have you turned in the totally, finally, absolutely finished script yet (as in, as you once wrote, the script is never really done until the movie is screening in the cinemas)? We need day, date, time – hour, minute and second? Oh My Goodness, could I be asking, after all, for the movie’s release date? Anyway, you choose…:)

I see that Chris Pine has been practising at being thrown across the room and the suit does make him slide quite nicely ‘n’ all in the trailer of TMW…:) Is this a sample of things to come for “my captain”? I hope you have also been nice to “my captain”. You take care of those wonderful Trek characters, won’t you, especially the one called (Pine) James T Kirk, otherwise this Keachick could become seriously upset…:(

Can’t wait to see either movie!

Yes, Dee. I thought I saw something like that going on. Tom Hardy had a shot at “the chin” as well, until, at one point, they got rained on…LOL

@1006
The point is that it’s impossible to know who’s right under those circumstances. At some point somebody has to win and somebody has to cave, or both die.

I wasn’t arguing for turning left or right. I was arguing against the claims by some that politcal compromise was somehow the solution to every problem. Sometimes somebodies got to win and somebodies got to lose.

Also, you missed my earlier post that those statements were the standard liberal script for the last 10 years. What prompted me to repost was Lostrods umbrage at YOU for implying that soldiers were fighting and dying for NOTHING and LIES. Like Lostrod said, you probably wouldn’t want to say that to the widow or children of a soldier, and it’s bad enough to say it within earshot of a soldier who’s actually done the sacrificing. But I’m sure you meant to say “thank you” instead.

Ref #1018. Odkin, that is a travesty if some people here have been implicating our soldiers in the field with such rhetoric. “Thank you” is indeed the response that such ingrates should have. And I doubt such people have ever served or have any idea what the day in the life of a solider in the field is like. What a pathetic viewpoint!

Excuse me if I missed the self-congratulatory wrap party hosted by Orci on the lame conspiracy theory posts…somewhere along the line I must have been mistaken as I thought that this guy was 2 years late and counting on the sequel script???

Keep your eye on the ball, Bob. Enough already with the Star Wars planking, the weekly new tv series deals, the retread comics….I just want my fracking Trek movie, dude!

1019. The point is, if we had questioned the motives of our POLITICIANS, many of those brave and selfless men and women who WE so admire and who have sacrificed so much, including their health and in far too many cases, their lives, might still be with us. Sending them into harm’s way without debating the possible motives of our government is NOT supporting them. It’s getting them killed. See?

1019: “What prompted me to repost was Lostrods umbrage at YOU for implying that soldiers were fighting and dying for NOTHING and LIES.”

Well Lostrod has more years in than I do. I did four. Honored my obligation and decided living within an authoritarian power structure, while it has some attractive benefits, was not for me.

So he has more experience, and he’s just been through war, but I had enough experience to know that the meaning you find on the ground in the situations your country places you in comes from being in a team of brothers that you would risk your lives for and who would risk their lives for you. On TV and on the radio they may talk about abstract reasons our military was doing this or that such as for American freedom, but the ground floor reason you had — the one that really motivated you — was to support each other in whatever job you were there to do. It wasn’t about any lofty ideal so much as being your brother’s keeper. Now I don’t know what Lostrod’s perspective is, but that was mine as a Marine. And that’s a meaning you have no matter where you go, for whatever reason Washington has, because the fact is that the military is not a democracy and the reason ultimately does not matter; you follow orders.

Part of the reason that at least the Marine Corps tries to build esprit de corps, is because they know at the Pentagon that esprit de corps is a much more powerful personal reason to fight and die than some abstract political reason some talking head in Washington comes up with to send you to some conflict.

And that reason — the reason of fellowship — is always there, whether a WAR you are going to fight is based on bogus political reasons or not. It certainly wasn’t my job at the time to wonder if the reasons our MAGTF was conducting operations in the Persian Gulf were good or not. We were told they were, but what if it wasn’t true? Didn’t matter. You and your buddies were in it together, and coming back together was the job. Should you die fighting for that, my friend, it is not for nothing.

In a different time, politicians often came from families who had a history of serving their country spanning generations. Sometimes they even lied so they might risk their lives and serve their nation. Bush Sr. comes to mind. They saw that with success came responsibility. Now politicians see title as privilege. Many have lied to get out of service. Bush Jr comes to mind. In their closed social circles they don’t know those who deal with the effects of their policies; not their peers, business partners, financial consultants, neighbors or fellow country club members. They are immune on a very real level to the ramifications and hardships those who implementt such policies face.

1028: “They are immune on a very real level to the ramifications and hardships those who implementt such policies face.”

Very true. And civilians who really want to show their appreciation of America’s military should do all they can to make sure that their military isn’t sent into situations that aren’t unconstitutional and not absolutely necessary.

That would go farther than thanking some veteran with missing legs and/or PTSD, “Thank you for your service.”

But suppose you had, and suppose you came back with one leg or one eye. Would you REALLY have any patience for some Monday morning quarterback saying, “Everything you did so bravely? Yeah, that was all a big waste of time. I knew the President was wrong!”

dmduncan- shoot me an email too and like Harry said we can all get together on this. Just to see what we find anyway! Anyone else too, that is if Harry was serious! :D I like projects… I don’t start back to school until January so I have some time! :D

I probably wouldn’t have felt it was a waste of time anymore than I would feel that going to Yellowstone was a waste of time had I been mauled by a grizzly bear during the visit. I would say “that part sucked,” but “waste of time” doesn’t capture it, maybe because there’d have been at least some good to the experience before that happened.

See, if the political reasons you are sent there are illegitimate, that doesn’t mean you lack the opportunities in that experience for genuine bravery and good action; it doesn’t mean you can’t do any good. Those are choices, i.e., how to conduct yourself, you are always faced with, and they are always worthwhile. The value in the experience doesn’t simply vanish because the political reasons you were sent to war were illegitimate.

My opinion: New THING monster less amorphous, more defined = less scary. Not the same sense of paranoia. But has much the same plot structure as the Carpenter version, which could be weird. Because while it meshes with the Carpenter version as a prequel, if you watch the movies back to back you will see the same movie twice. But I still enjoyed it. So I would recommend.

No hiding, my friend. I was mostly staying out of the political arguments on this thread. However, I did post a few casting suggestions and conspiracy theories here (#373, #406, #419, #420/421, #634, #637, #828, #829, #831, #944, #948).

“Well Bob says that the United States Post Office is not in on the conspiracy. But who else would be stealing POSTS!?!?”

Posts, comments, tomaytos, tomahtos ;)

Shadowy forces of darkness secretly deleting my comments on Trekmovie aside, those huge unexplained trades on the financial markets just before 9/11 have been confirmed by the SEC, and nobody knows who was responsible (see #944 and #948). But whoever the unidentified investors were, they had detailed knowledge of exactly which companies were going to be directly affected by the attacks. So there’s a real-life conspiracy right there. A pretty big one, as conspiracies go.

The Huffington Post is reporting that when it obtained a 2008 U.S. Air Force manual, it had a section on how to report on a UFO. The Post tried to follow up but the Air Force removed the section. Funny, because the Air Force stopped reporting on UFOs in 1969 when it ended Project Bluebook. The story does say that NORAD keeps reports on UFOs. They don’t acknowledge anything extraterrestrials. Ten quatloos that if we tried to do a FOIA request for NORAD, the government would give us nothing about alien UFOs. The truth is out there.

That’s a very interesting article by the Huffington Post. Some of the other articles mentioned in it also discuss an incident involving a American nuclear missile base last year, when 50 ICBMs suddenly went completely offline at exactly the same time that a large UFO was seen over the base.

The article by The Atlantic goes into quite a lot of detail about how the total loss of control over the nukes was such a major problem that it was rapidly discussed with President Obama, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (Admiral Michael Mullen), Secretary of Defence Robert Gates, the National Military Command Center in Washington, and the two other nuclear missile command centers in the US.

It’s the biggest loss of control of nuclear warheads in US military history, and it’s never been officially explained. However, of course it’s not the first time that UFOs hovering over air force bases have apparently tampered with the nukes there, although this is the first time that it’s happened on such a large scale.

Bob Orci likes the UFO topic also. I’m more convinced of UFO cover-ups than many other conspiracy theories. I’ve seen stories by former military about UFOs shutting down our nukes. Some think the ETs are sending a message. But what message? We can destroy you? I don’t think so because they would have already have invaded. How about what Gary Seven was doing in TOS “Assignment: Earth?” Is it “you guys are going to kill yourselves?” That’s one of the theories. Link.

I like what former Captain Robert Salas says about the government and UFOs. “There is current excessive secrecy in our government surrounding this phenomenon.” The truth is out there. And I think it’s more than one alien race visiting us and helping us create super soldiers. X-Files joke, sorry. I think the galaxy is teeming with life and they’re stopping by. Let’s hope they’re friendly like Vulcans.

I wrote you a fairly detailed reply earlier today but my comment has strangely disappeared during the past few hours. I’m trying again with a shorter version, but if my original comment eventually reappears above this one, at least you’ll know why I seem to be repeating myself.

I’d read the stories about military officers reporting UFOs tampering with nukes during the past 40+ years too, but I hadn’t realised that a major incident along those lines had occurred just a year ago.

I broadly agree with your logic that nasty aliens wouldn’t be “sending a message” in that way — they’d just attack. If the tampering does constitute some kind of message then it’s more likely that it’s a warning from benevolent aliens about the grave dangers nukes pose to humanity, as you’ve also mentioned.

However, it’s also possible that the tampering isn’t a message at all; it could be some sort of “test run” by aliens checking to see if they could deactivate our nuclear arsenal if necessary. The actual motivations obviously depend on whether the aliens responsible are nice or nasty.

“Let’s hope they’re friendly like Vulcans.”

We’d better hope so. There’s a school of thought that says that one of the reasons we (allegedly) haven’t detected any overt signs of interstellar communication by aliens is because “whoever shouts in the forest ends up drawing the attention of wolves”.

I’m sure that someone, somewhere in a position of authority knows at least some elements of the truth. Whether the apparent cover-up is motivated by cynical vested interests or because knowledge of the real situation would be too much for the general population to take is a matter of debate.

Keeping the lid on what’s actually going on will prove increasingly difficult if the ETs keep tampering with our nukes.

Jai says, “There’s a school of thought that says that one of the reasons we (allegedly) haven’t detected any overt signs of interstellar communication by aliens is because “whoever shouts in the forest ends up drawing the attention of wolves”.

That’s interesting. Because Stephen Hawking basically says the same thing. It’s not a good idea of telling the aliens we’re here. But I’m afraid the bear has already left the cage. Our radio and television signals have been sent out into space. I wonder what ET thinks of Jersey Shore and Snooki.