I posted the following somewhere and thought we could discuss the matter here also. #

Re: Freeing Kashmir militarily

IMHO, if we aren't willing to try to fight for Kashmir we have to accept that there is no other solution to the problem for us then to accept the LOC as international boundary and leave the whole issue. I don't think there is any likely of India ever giving up an inch of territory in Kashmir through dialogue. I also think that given the Indians recent 'water terrorism' as some call it, it has become abundantly clear that the Indians aren't going to make it easy for Pakistan to leave the matter alone. The more we give them space and signals of peace, the more they feel they can push us. The water issue isn't going to be solved itself especially given the Indian attitude to towards us and ours about our own interests.

The situation of Pakistan vs India isn't so impossible that it should be considered outside the realm of possibility. Given time and effort we could reach a position from which it may be tried. We just have to realize that it may require some thinking outside the box - there are examples of much smaller forces taking on (and winning from) much larger stronger foe. From the top of my head there are a few points to consider-

---Why not use large numbers of foot soldiers with basic tools. We have a large population of able bodied youth which could be trained for the job. After Napoleon defeated the Prusians and forced them to limit their military numbers they devised an interesting plan. Firstly, they started nationwide movements that aimed to train youths and promote nationalism. Secondly, they started recruiting training and retiring army personnel quickly. Pakistan could similar techniques to raise reasonably trained soldiers in a short enough time in large numbers.

However, given our recent troubles with anti-state elements I would prefer these programs be state run under army supervision. Add a good speaker for motivation who focuses on two points during training:

a)Fighting against the state would make them Khuwarij.

b)Kashmir is a legit cause for Jihad.

Like an advance version of that course they had back in the day for students. Can't remember the name.

---Equip them with cost effective weapons that can be manufactures in large numbers. We already produce Shoulder fired anti air (Anza) and Anti Armour (Bakhtar Shikan) so these can be produced en-mass along with other weapons we produce.

--- We could fortify our border and use most of the low trained tropes to man the posts there supervised by ex-servicemen who are in the condition to serve. This would free up a lot of the well trained force to be used for offensive ops. The bulk of the trained fighters should be sent into the Kashmir theatre used for ambushing the Indian forces and using gorilla tactics ahead of the Army. Pak Army engages the Indians head on, these guys attack their supply lines and other vulnerable targets.

---The problem remains of the air-force and how to counter the Indian superiority in that field. We obviously can't spend our way to victory so we would have to use cheaper methods and tactics. If my memory serves me right, the Egyptians knew the Israelis had a superior air-force so they devised their tactics accordingly. They used infantry spread out formations to counter it, instead of using a lot of armour of air force to fight them off. This was effective enough and allowed them to make significant gains initially.

We could also invest in advance SAM systems and other defences to help supplement our AF. The point is not to match the Indian AF unit for unit rather to hold them off sufficiently and provide sufficient cover to achieve the targets.

I am not sure if this is even possible but if the AWACS could be used to help make our effectively BVR capable, as in F7ps just carry SD10s and the AWACS controls the target selection and guidance. Just an idea.

---One important things we could try is to get some fighters– of the 'really motivated' variety—in before hand to attack their Airbases during the conflict. Same could be used with Navy and Army.

---I am sure there are ways to use cheaper tactics – like use a bunch of fast torpedo and missile boats and deploy many Sonar devises in the see that could help us see the see enemy movements. I don't know much about this – but I am sure there are ways to minimize the threat to our ports and avoid getting blockaded.

All of these could be put into action given sufficient time and effort on our part. Or maybe I just don't like idea of giving up on Kashmir and Pakistan bowing in front of India.

w/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Brother, the only solution will be a military solution, there is no diplomatic solution because India is unwilling to go down that road. I don't think direct conflict can be avoided, it will happen, but we shouldn't start with that, we should start with the successful strategies of the 80's, using proxies. Train them, deploy them, it worked then, it will work now, nothing has changed really. All we need is a little stability.

Follow PDF on twitter @Official_PDF

-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=

Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nationor country would tolerate its jugular vein remainsunder the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah

-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=

These eye's do not wander in lust, for myqueen of hearts has graced them with love.

I posted the following somewhere and thought we could discuss the matter here also. #

Re: Freeing Kashmir militarily

IMHO, if we aren't willing to try to fight for Kashmir we have to accept that there is no other solution to the problem for us then to accept the LOC as international boundary and leave the whole issue. I don't think there is any likely of India ever giving up an inch of territory in Kashmir through dialogue. I also think that given the Indians recent 'water terrorism' as some call it, it has become abundantly clear that the Indians aren't going to make it easy for Pakistan to leave the matter alone. The more we give them space and signals of peace, the more they feel they can push us. The water issue isn't going to be solved itself especially given the Indian attitude to towards us and ours about our own interests.

The situation of Pakistan vs India isn't so impossible that it should be considered outside the realm of possibility. Given time and effort we could reach a position from which it may be tried. We just have to realize that it may require some thinking outside the box - there are examples of much smaller forces taking on (and winning from) much larger stronger foe. From the top of my head there are a few points to consider-

---Why not use large numbers of foot soldiers with basic tools. We have a large population of able bodied youth which could be trained for the job. After Napoleon defeated the Prusians and forced them to limit their military numbers they devised an interesting plan. Firstly, they started nationwide movements that aimed to train youths and promote nationalism. Secondly, they started recruiting training and retiring army personnel quickly. Pakistan could similar techniques to raise reasonably trained soldiers in a short enough time in large numbers.

However, given our recent troubles with anti-state elements I would prefer these programs be state run under army supervision. Add a good speaker for motivation who focuses on two points during training:

a)Fighting against the state would make them Khuwarij.

b)Kashmir is a legit cause for Jihad.

Like an advance version of that course they had back in the day for students. Can't remember the name.

---Equip them with cost effective weapons that can be manufactures in large numbers. We already produce Shoulder fired anti air (Anza) and Anti Armour (Bakhtar Shikan) so these can be produced en-mass along with other weapons we produce.

--- We could fortify our border and use most of the low trained tropes to man the posts there supervised by ex-servicemen who are in the condition to serve. This would free up a lot of the well trained force to be used for offensive ops. The bulk of the trained fighters should be sent into the Kashmir theatre used for ambushing the Indian forces and using gorilla tactics ahead of the Army. Pak Army engages the Indians head on, these guys attack their supply lines and other vulnerable targets.

---The problem remains of the air-force and how to counter the Indian superiority in that field. We obviously can't spend our way to victory so we would have to use cheaper methods and tactics. If my memory serves me right, the Egyptians knew the Israelis had a superior air-force so they devised their tactics accordingly. They used infantry spread out formations to counter it, instead of using a lot of armour of air force to fight them off. This was effective enough and allowed them to make significant gains initially.

We could also invest in advance SAM systems and other defences to help supplement our AF. The point is not to match the Indian AF unit for unit rather to hold them off sufficiently and provide sufficient cover to achieve the targets.

I am not sure if this is even possible but if the AWACS could be used to help make our effectively BVR capable, as in F7ps just carry SD10s and the AWACS controls the target selection and guidance. Just an idea.

---One important things we could try is to get some fighters– of the 'really motivated' variety—in before hand to attack their Airbases during the conflict. Same could be used with Navy and Army.

---I am sure there are ways to use cheaper tactics – like use a bunch of fast torpedo and missile boats and deploy many Sonar devises in the see that could help us see the see enemy movements. I don't know much about this – but I am sure there are ways to minimize the threat to our ports and avoid getting blockaded.

All of these could be put into action given sufficient time and effort on our part. Or maybe I just don't like idea of giving up on Kashmir and Pakistan bowing in front of India.

w/salaam

The issue is not with strategy or army capability. The issue is our weak economy. Also, if you start conscription in the armed forces where every person is forced to join the army...you need to provide them basic clothing and at least a pistol if we are to be on an extreme budget as per what you say. Next, this new standing army will be a full time profession for these new recruits. How to you expect to cover costs associated to their salaries, uniforms, food, weapons, ammunition, new depots, new barracks, new land etc. etc.

As you can see, this will become very overwhelming for our economy and will be unsustainable. The good news is that our army is a complete volunteer force and its ranks swell via patriotic recruits at any time. The limit is placed due to army requirements and budgetary constraints.

If the economy improves, the country's buying power increases and it is then able to afford a large standing army. What you propose will simply make Pakistan like North Korea where almost everyone is a soldier but they have very little to eat and build.

The reality is that India is indeed much stronger now than ever before. We would be foolish to think that we can take them on with what we have today. The only really defeat for India is a first nuclear strike with the attempt to paralyse their second strike capability. This also is very hard to do and will surely result in MAD.

What we need to do is first improve our economy by solving the energy crises. Remember, everything nowdays needs energy. Factories, offices, government buildings, and the army all run on electricity. There should be no compromise on that and as Pakistani citizens, we must put pressure on the government to solve this crisis.

Once we resolve that, we need to attract foreign investment and give support to local business and entrepreneurs. The government needs to have economical plans like the five or ten year plans so that we invest money in areas that are our national strengths such as agriculture, textiles etc, and then accumulate wealth to start a large services industry or anything along those lines.

We need to promote local defence companies, private and public, so that our military becomes self reliant. This also means that we need money for science and technology i.e. R&D. This also means that we need innovation. As you can see, all of this is pegged to government policies and overall economic factors.

China and India are modernizing simply because they are doing smart business as per their national strengths. As an example, Huawei and Wipro are two multinational from China and India respectively. However, I have great difficulty in finding Pakistani multinational company. Such is our sorry state.

In the meantime, we can use proxy forces and harass our enemy but we will not be able to defeat it. India has already defeated Pakistan and views it more as a nuisance. India has flooded international markets with its products that are high in quality, abundant, and very affordable. Pakistan products are hardly seen anywhere and those to are of lousy quality. As far as Kashmir is concerned, I have met many Kashmiris from Indian Kashmir and they are considerably content with India. That is the bitter fact.

That is not to say that there are no Kashmiri separatists but they no longer have the strength to resist. Also, imagine that we win Kashmir in some way, that would be incorporating close to 13 million new Kashmiris into the dominion of Pakistan. How are we going to cater for them? Many of them would need jobs and work and our industries are dead and can not absorb them. Our government has no money to help them. We can not even help our own IDP from the war in North Waziristan.

The issue is not with strategy or army capability. The issue is our weak economy. Also, if you start conscription in the armed forces where every person is forced to join the army...you need to provide them basic clothing and at least a pistol if we are to be on an extreme budget as per what you say. Next, this new standing army will be a full time profession for these new recruits. How to you expect to cover costs associated to their salaries, uniforms, food, weapons, ammunition, new depots, new barracks, new land etc. etc.

As you can see, this will become very overwhelming for our economy and will be unsustainable. The good news is that our army is a complete volunteer force and its ranks swell via patriotic recruits at any time. The limit is placed due to army requirements and budgetary constraints.

If the economy improves, the country's buying power increases and it is then able to afford a large standing army. What you propose will simply make Pakistan like North Korea where almost everyone is a soldier but they have very little to eat and build.

The reality is that India is indeed much stronger now than ever before. We would be foolish to think that we can take them on with what we have today. The only really defeat for India is a first nuclear strike with the attempt to paralyse their second strike capability. This also is very hard to do and will surely result in MAD.

What we need to do is first improve our economy by solving the energy crises. Remember, everything nowdays needs energy. Factories, offices, government buildings, and the army all run on electricity. There should be no compromise on that and as Pakistani citizens, we must put pressure on the government to solve this crisis.

Once we resolve that, we need to attract foreign investment and give support to local business and entrepreneurs. The government needs to have economical plans like the five or ten year plans so that we invest money in areas that are our national strengths such as agriculture, textiles etc, and then accumulate wealth to start a large services industry or anything along those lines.

We need to promote local defence companies, private and public, so that our military becomes self reliant. This also means that we need money for science and technology i.e. R&D. This also means that we need innovation. As you can see, all of this is pegged to government policies and overall economic factors.

China and India are modernizing simply because they are doing smart business as per their national strengths. As an example, Huawei and Wipro are two multinational from China and India respectively. However, I have great difficulty in finding Pakistani multinational company. Such is our sorry state.

In the meantime, we can use proxy forces and harass our enemy but we will not be able to defeat it. India has already defeated Pakistan and views it more as a nuisance. India has flooded international markets with its products that are high in quality, abundant, and very affordable. Pakistan products are hardly seen anywhere and those to are of lousy quality. As far as Kashmir is concerned, I have met many Kashmiris from Indian Kashmir and they are considerably content with India. That is the bitter fact.

That is not to say that there are no Kashmiri separatists but they no longer have the strength to resist. Also, imagine that we win Kashmir in some way, that would be incorporating close to 13 million new Kashmiris into the dominion of Pakistan. How are we going to cater for them? Many of them would need jobs and work and our industries are dead and can not absorb them. Our government has no money to help them. We can not even help our own IDP from the war in North Waziristan.

Let me know what you think on all of this.

Hardly,..............Any nation that has over half the world's severely poor and malnourished, over 700 million of it's people with no access to basic sanitation and toilets who have to openly defecate in public is hardly the economic model us Pakistanis should be admiring or following. I fail to see what "high" quality indian products are flooding the international markets. Here in the uk I can't seem to find any. Only cheap shoes and slippers. india with over 1.3 billion people and allegedly being an advanced scientific and economic power (according to a lot of Pakistanis) is nowhere near as scientifically, technologically or economically advanced as the western European nations (such as UK, Germany or USA) or China or Japan for that matter. The truth is that a lot of Pakistanis (especially those on the net) have a morbid fascination and admiration of india for whatever reason. They talk of india is if it is more powerful than the USA. If india is such an economic haven then why are a lot of indians flooding Europe, the West, Middle East and Australia looking for work and a better life. The rest of the world sees indians as being a malnourished, impoverished, dirty and smelly people. Fact remains that if india could successfully invade, conquer and decisively defeat Pakistan's conventional forces and take the whole of Kashmir they would have done so years possibly decades ago. For whatever reason, most Pakistanis nowadays spend too much time praising india (more than indians themselves). If Pakistanis could regain faith and confidence in our Islamic heritage and culture and be sincere then our problems would end.

We don't have to maintain a large army - we just have start movements that aim to train able bodied men about the basic stuff. Once the hostilities start we just call them all up - until then these people go about their regular jobs. We have a huge population of under 35s (I think 110million) so I think we could be able to hastily raise a few million if need arises.

We do need a reasonable economy for this but like I said we just need to have basic equipment for the emergency recruits. Guns&ammo, maybe uniform and ration for the duration of the conflict. A lot of people have weapons of their own - and those who don't the state can provide. Basically spam the cheap stuff and use the expensive stuff when unavoidable.

I think the Swiss have a similar thing going on - you take a week or two out yearly to go train and everyone knows where they are suppose to report in case of hostilities.

w/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Gentlemen what you are forgetting is that today both countries have MAD in place. Nuclear option is a press of a button away. You are talking war for the sake of Kashmir yet people in Azad Kashmir refuse to accept being Pakistani. I am witness to this. There is no military solution and the only solution is political. Decisive land battles and victories are a thing of the past for large armies. Most recent wars have been won by light highly mobile gorilla type combat where the enemy is killed with a thousand cuts rather than one. Recent examples include Iraq, Afghanistan even Israelis are fed up and leaving Israel.

You talk of people of Azad Kashmir not wanting to be Pakistani, but have you walked a mile in their shoes? The same ills that Pakistanis face, we end up facing. Life is a little easier in ajk. Some people think its because they have a semblance of control. Fact of the matter is people of ajk have legitimate grievances against Pakistan much the same as any of the other provinces have. The federal government is letting us all down. Despite that there is no independence movement in AJK, people realise the benefits of being a part of a united Muslim world inspire of those benefits currently only being on paper.

We are all too negative, why let life get you down? Our nation is stronger and better equipped than ever before, our enemy is the same India as ever, dollars don't win wars, soldiers do. If wealth won wars America would not be defeated time and time again.

War should be avoided if possible, it will ruin lives for generations, nobody is unscathed in war. When it I bought upon you, you can either be enslaved or die free men. If MAD is the end, then so be it. Let us unshackle our minds and strive forwards in the face of ever greater adversary. Allah created you, he created your nation, non other than him can destroy you, when he wishes your destruction nobody can save you.

Follow PDF on twitter @Official_PDF

-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=

Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nationor country would tolerate its jugular vein remainsunder the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah

-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=

These eye's do not wander in lust, for myqueen of hearts has graced them with love.

Hardly,..............Any nation that has over half the world's severely poor and malnourished, over 700 million of it's people with no access to basic sanitation and toilets who have to openly defecate in public is hardly the economic model us Pakistanis should be admiring or following. I fail to see what "high" quality indian products are flooding the international markets. Here in the uk I can't seem to find any. Only cheap shoes and slippers. india with over 1.3 billion people and allegedly being an advanced scientific and economic power (according to a lot of Pakistanis) is nowhere near as scientifically, technologically or economically advanced as the western European nations (such as UK, Germany or USA) or China or Japan for that matter. The truth is that a lot of Pakistanis (especially those on the net) have a morbid fascination and admiration of india for whatever reason. They talk of india is if it is more powerful than the USA. If india is such an economic haven then why are a lot of indians flooding Europe, the West, Middle East and Australia looking for work and a better life. The rest of the world sees indians as being a malnourished, impoverished, dirty and smelly people. Fact remains that if india could successfully invade, conquer and decisively defeat Pakistan's conventional forces and take the whole of Kashmir they would have done so years possibly decades ago. For whatever reason, most Pakistanis nowadays spend too much time praising india (more than indians themselves). If Pakistanis could regain faith and confidence in our Islamic heritage and culture and be sincere then our problems would end.

Look brother, I only sense pure Indian hatred in your post and I understand that. The reality is that the world is considering India as a very large market and that is why you see a lot of economic activity there. I do agree the disgusting side of Indians but a lot of that has to do with their mindset. They may be unhygienic but they do know how to do business. They may be the rape capital but they get their voices heard and take to the streets as a nation. They undersand the power of democracy and do not waste their vote unlike us.

To fight an adversary you first need to study him and then make your calculated move. My post was meant to objectively point out the difficulties we would have based on our current situation to take on India. I understand that for some this is unthinkable but the truth is that there is now a severe disparity between the two nations in every sense of the word.

However, I do say that this CAN be fixed if we start working together. Ignore India for once and let us just focus on ourselves.

Look Pakpatriot, as your name implies, you are a patriot and so am I and so are many members on this forum. I urge you too look at the stark reality and think of ways on how we can help our country. I for one try my level best to help via NGOs where I provide free services that are highly technical in nature. I am planning methods of delivering modern, effective, and free education to Pakistanis and still working on how I can engage different parties to ensure its success. I am trying my level best to change Pakistan and the good news is that there are many Pakistanis who will support and follow you in such endeavors.

Back to topic, we need a strong economy that keeps growing through strong businesses and corruption free society and government. We need a condusive environment for growth. After we achieve that, rest assured that we would be well on the path to being a very powerful country and I strongly believe that we have the potential to do so.

You talk of people of Azad Kashmir not wanting to be Pakistani, but have you walked a mile in their shoes? The same ills that Pakistanis face, we end up facing. Life is a little easier in ajk. Some people think its because they have a semblance of control. Fact of the matter is people of ajk have legitimate grievances against Pakistan much the same as any of the other provinces have. The federal government is letting us all down. Despite that there is no independence movement in AJK, people realise the benefits of being a part of a united Muslim world inspire of those benefits currently only being on paper.

We are all too negative, why let life get you down? Our nation is stronger and better equipped than ever before, our enemy is the same India as ever, dollars don't win wars, soldiers do. If wealth won wars America would not be defeated time and time again.

War should be avoided if possible, it will ruin lives for generations, nobody is unscathed in war. When it I bought upon you, you can either be enslaved or die free men. If MAD is the end, then so be it. Let us unshackle our minds and strive forwards in the face of ever greater adversary. Allah created you, he created your nation, non other than him can destroy you, when he wishes your destruction nobody can save you.

I agree with a number of things in what you say in your post. Pointing mistakes in Pakistan does not mean we are negative but rather that should consider ourselves as people with a conscience. A large part of the population simply does not have a conscience and are, instinctively, trying to survive.

With regards to our confrontation with India, we should continue to keep military pressure on them but only to the point where we avoid war. We should immediately try to start proxy war in India to stunt their growth. We should quietly support al-qaeda and IS to stir trouble in India. We should start an economic war by trying to capture Indian markets around the world which would improve our growth and stunt theirs thus closing the gap. We must excel much more them in everything they do to ensure the world approves of our quality and standards.

If India uses water as a form to wage war, then we can have war and we should even if it results in MAD. Simply because they would be causing harm to our nation without any agreement. BUT this needs to be addressed with a multi-pronged strategy.

Pakistan lost the option of war against India a long time back (it was probably never there). after seeing the way India reacted to border firing recently I think Pakistan no longer has the option of any sort of military pressure. The best way for Pakistan is to reform the education system so people of Pakistan develop healthy respect for India. Instead of teaching about non existent Indian trickery they can emphasize the fact that India treated and released 90,000 Pakistani prisoners of war with respect. This will go a long way to help both countries.

I have some doubts regarding Kashmir Freedom Struggle can anybody explain

If Kashmir is fighting for its freedom then why Azad Kashmir not proclaimed its Independence, why still it is under Pakistan control. It is understandable that it fears India might attack that why it is been protected by Pakistan. But still it could have applied for UN membership for separate nation why didn't it has done it till date?

If Kashmir will be merged with Pakistan (which is spending Crores of Rupees for Kashmir freedom) what will be the role of Jammu & Ladakh in that ?

If Indian side Kashmiris refuse to join Pakistan and declared Independence then what will be the Pakistan's stance regarding that ? If so happens then what will be Azad Kashmir role ? What about Kashmiri Pundits & other Kashmir ethnic groups ?

If Kashmiris revolt against joining Pakistan and start Independence movement then what will Pakistan do ?

Will India & Pakistan border tension will ease or will it continue after Kashmir Independence ? if continue then for what reason ?

I am asking this because as of now if Kashmir lays with India or not. That will not change its defense budget or its military spending as India is more focused towards China rather than Pakistan. But Pakistan Army is built on the basis of countering Indian Military threat in Kashmir region and as of now other than Kashmir as of now there is no boundary issues between two nations.

The Kashmir issue has been hyped up so much over the years that it cannot be resolved easily. The positions of major stakeholders have only hardened over time.

For a military solution, one of the stakeholders will have to become overwhelmingly superior. Emotional outbursts will not solve the matter. Overwhelming superiority is no longer possible for any one player, given the the prevailing global geopolitics.

For Pakistan to acquire Kashmir militarily, its strategists should come to a conclusion that Kashmir is more important for Pakistan than Pakistan itself. Because the costs of a military solution will be so high that the nation itself would be in danger of being decimated. The situation is identical for India also and I do not think that in Indian thinking Kashmir is more important than the nation. Nor is it in Pakistani reckoning.

There can only be a non-military solution and it will have to take care of the interests of all stakeholders, most of all, Kashmiris. As of now the majority Kashmiri stand is for independence from both India and Pakistan but it will not be a viable position as a landlocked region.

I have some doubts regarding Kashmir Freedom Struggle can anybody explain

If Kashmir is fighting for its freedom then why Azad Kashmir not proclaimed its Independence, why still it is under Pakistan control. It is understandable that it fears India might attack that why it is been protected by Pakistan. But still it could have applied for UN membership for separate nation why didn't it has done it till date?

If Kashmir will be merged with Pakistan (which is spending Crores of Rupees for Kashmir freedom) what will be the role of Jammu & Ladakh in that ?

If Indian side Kashmiris refuse to join Pakistan and declared Independence then what will be the Pakistan's stance regarding that ? If so happens then what will be Azad Kashmir role ? What about Kashmiri Pundits & other Kashmir ethnic groups ?

If Kashmiris revolt against joining Pakistan and start Independence movement then what will Pakistan do ?

Will India & Pakistan border tension will ease or will it continue after Kashmir Independence ? if continue then for what reason ?

I am asking this because as of now if Kashmir lays with India or not. That will not change its defense budget or its military spending as India is more focused towards China rather than Pakistan. But Pakistan Army is built on the basis of countering Indian Military threat in Kashmir region and as of now other than Kashmir as of now there is no boundary issues between two nations.

the only realistic chance we had to occupy kashmir was in 1947 and we messed up in 1965 , we will never get another chance

well i still fail to understand if overwhelming kashmir people are with us why we could not succeed in 1965 or 47 as soon as we attacked people would have revolted against india and joined us, and why kashmir people did not revolt in 1972 ?

The issue is not with strategy or army capability. The issue is our weak economy. Also, if you start conscription in the armed forces where every person is forced to join the army...you need to provide them basic clothing and at least a pistol if we are to be on an extreme budget as per what you say. Next, this new standing army will be a full time profession for these new recruits. How to you expect to cover costs associated to their salaries, uniforms, food, weapons, ammunition, new depots, new barracks, new land etc. etc.

As you can see, this will become very overwhelming for our economy and will be unsustainable. The good news is that our army is a complete volunteer force and its ranks swell via patriotic recruits at any time. The limit is placed due to army requirements and budgetary constraints.

If the economy improves, the country's buying power increases and it is then able to afford a large standing army. What you propose will simply make Pakistan like North Korea where almost everyone is a soldier but they have very little to eat and build.

The reality is that India is indeed much stronger now than ever before. We would be foolish to think that we can take them on with what we have today. The only really defeat for India is a first nuclear strike with the attempt to paralyse their second strike capability. This also is very hard to do and will surely result in MAD.

What we need to do is first improve our economy by solving the energy crises. Remember, everything nowdays needs energy. Factories, offices, government buildings, and the army all run on electricity. There should be no compromise on that and as Pakistani citizens, we must put pressure on the government to solve this crisis.

Once we resolve that, we need to attract foreign investment and give support to local business and entrepreneurs. The government needs to have economical plans like the five or ten year plans so that we invest money in areas that are our national strengths such as agriculture, textiles etc, and then accumulate wealth to start a large services industry or anything along those lines.

We need to promote local defence companies, private and public, so that our military becomes self reliant. This also means that we need money for science and technology i.e. R&D. This also means that we need innovation. As you can see, all of this is pegged to government policies and overall economic factors.

China and India are modernizing simply because they are doing smart business as per their national strengths. As an example, Huawei and Wipro are two multinational from China and India respectively. However, I have great difficulty in finding Pakistani multinational company. Such is our sorry state.

In the meantime, we can use proxy forces and harass our enemy but we will not be able to defeat it. India has already defeated Pakistan and views it more as a nuisance. India has flooded international markets with its products that are high in quality, abundant, and very affordable. Pakistan products are hardly seen anywhere and those to are of lousy quality. As far as Kashmir is concerned, I have met many Kashmiris from Indian Kashmir and they are considerably content with India. That is the bitter fact.

That is not to say that there are no Kashmiri separatists but they no longer have the strength to resist. Also, imagine that we win Kashmir in some way, that would be incorporating close to 13 million new Kashmiris into the dominion of Pakistan. How are we going to cater for them? Many of them would need jobs and work and our industries are dead and can not absorb them. Our government has no money to help them. We can not even help our own IDP from the war in North Waziristan.

Let me know what you think on all of this.

well who will invest in our our country , even the chinese premier this time skipped visiting our country ...

we are lagging almost 25 years behind in comparison to india in industrial development we might have good defence industry, but we do not have a good steel plant or oil refinery forget about hi tech industry even our cottage industry is dyeing ...

The resolution recommended that in order to ensure the impartiality of the plebiscite Pakistan withdraw all tribesmen and nationals who entered the region for the purpose of fighting and that India leave only the minimum number of troops needed to keep civil order. The Commission was also to send as many observers into the region as it deemed necessary to ensure the provisions of the resolution were enacted. Pakistan ignored the UN mandate, did not withdraw its troops and claimed the withdrawal of Indian forces was a prerequisite as per this resolution.[5] Indian claim is that Subsequently Pakistan refused to implement the plebiscite until India accedes to it and continued holding on to the portion of Kashmir under its control.[6][7]

The resolution was adopted paragraph by paragraph; no vote on the resolution as a whole was taken.

My question is why india has to keep troops where as security council asks Pakistan to vacate Azad kashmir

well who will invest in our our country , even the chinese premier this time skipped visiting our country ...

we are lagging almost 25 years behind in comparison to india in industrial development we might have good defence industry, but we do not have a good steel plant or oil refinery forget about hi tech industry even our cottage industry is dyeing ...

You have absolutely no idea how many businesses would be willing to invest in Pakistan if the right environment were to be created. People around the world simply want to earn and they will setup shop anywhere where they can make good profit.

We are definitely lagging behind India but you can not use a select few industries and consider Pakistan to be lagging. All Pakistan needs is security, energy, and corruption free society and then you will see the magic happen.

The resolution recommended that in order to ensure the impartiality of the plebiscite Pakistan withdraw all tribesmen and nationals who entered the region for the purpose of fighting and that India leave only the minimum number of troops needed to keep civil order. The Commission was also to send as many observers into the region as it deemed necessary to ensure the provisions of the resolution were enacted. Pakistan ignored the UN mandate, did not withdraw its troops and claimed the withdrawal of Indian forces was a prerequisite as per this resolution.[5] Indian claim is that Subsequently Pakistan refused to implement the plebiscite until India accedes to it and continued holding on to the portion of Kashmir under its control.[6][7]

The resolution was adopted paragraph by paragraph; no vote on the resolution as a whole was taken.

My question is why india has to keep troops where as security council asks Pakistan to vacate Azad kashmir

Simply because Maharaja Hari Singh, the leader of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, decided to accede to India despite the overwhelming population being muslim with wishes to accede to Pakistan. On paper, India has right to the state but the will of the people is with Pakistan. Hence the dispute between both countries as per the UN.

All UNSC Resolution on Kashmir require the disengagement of the two warring countries before a peaceful resolution can be pursued. Since India has a legal claim to Kashmir (as per Indian claims), it seems the UN finds India to be justified to place its forces on Kashmiri soil whereas Pakistan is considered the instigator of the conflict by invading Kashmir. Note that UN consider the whole of Kashmir i.e. Indian and Pakistani occupied regions.

However, Pakistan is trying to justify that it will comply with the UN resolution only if India removes its forces first because the fear is that if Pakistan removes its forces from Azad Kashmir, India will simply take over all of Kashmir and no one will find any wrong in it. Hence the political deadlock.

Until Pakistan does not follow UNSC recommendations in all of Kashmir related resolutions, all Pakistani pleas will fall on deaf ears.

This is our dilemma and we have stupid leaders who keep repeating the issue year after year with the hopes that the resolution will change. The only way is to create massive instability in Kashmir that it forces the UNSC to focus on Kashmir and take an active role in resolving the conflict.

the only realistic chance we had to occupy kashmir was in 1947 and we messed up in 1965 , we will never get another chance
well i still fail to understand if overwhelming kashmir people are with us why we could not succeed in 1965 or 47 as soon as we attacked people would have revolted against india and joined us, and why kashmir people did not revolt in 1972 ?

In the past the population of Kashmir was unarmed, the hundu forces even took away farming tools in 47 so we could not defend ourselves. Now we are armed. The best chance of liberating Kashmir was Kargil, where nawaz Sharif sold us out.

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Kargil came way too late.... Surreptitiously occupying half a dozen hilltops does not amount to capturing the whole of Jammu and Kashmir. There is no evidence to show the just by holding on to those hilltops the Pakistani army could have controlled the whole of Kashmir. If the occupation continued, the most Pakistan could have done is launch an attack on Siachin to take it back. Even if Pakistani army continued to control the highway, there were other routes available for supplies to go beyond Kargil.

To me, 1965 was the realistic chance Pakistan had to take back the rest of Kashmir or at least a substantial part of Jammu and Kashmir. It finally did not turn out that way because of vulnerabilities along the international border.

In the past the population of Kashmir was unarmed, the hundu forces even took away farming tools in 47 so we could not defend ourselves. Now we are armed. The best chance of liberating Kashmir was Kargil, where nawaz Sharif sold us out.

Simply because Maharaja Hari Singh, the leader of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, decided to accede to India despite the overwhelming population being muslim with wishes to accede to Pakistan.

any way we can not correct the history but our leads made two big mistake

1) instated of sending tribal forces to kashmir and occupy forcefully we should have given better offer to Hari singh for example Deputy prime ministership if kashmir was such an important and emotional issue for us we should have given him better offer than the indians did .

2) there is big flaw in our logic just because kashmir has more muslim population they should have merged with us thats not correct logic , the idea to create a Pakistan sate was for muslim population can come and settle there was no mandate for the muslim majority princely state to merge logically we have also occupied princely states forcefully and we did not felt need for mandate from the people if they want merge with Pakistan or want to stay independent

3) let be realistic occupying kashmir is out of question what we can do is negotiate with india to have a open border in kashmir , where people of Kashmir can move freely

4) no india solder no Pakistan soldiers in kashmir it has to be ruled by kashmiris themselves

5) both india and Pakistan has to guarantee the security of kashmir etc

Simply because Maharaja Hari Singh, the leader of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, decided to accede to India despite the overwhelming population being muslim with wishes to accede to Pakistan.

any way we can not correct the history but our leads made two big mistake

1) instated of sending tribal forces to kashmir and occupy forcefully we should have given better offer to Hari singh for example Deputy prime ministership if kashmir was such an important and emotional issue for us we should have given him better offer than the indians did .

2) there is big flaw in our logic just because kashmir has more muslim population they should have merged with us thats not correct logic , the idea to create a Pakistan sate was for muslim population can come and settle there was no mandate for the muslim majority princely state to merge logically we have also occupied princely states forcefully and we did not felt need for mandate from the people if they want merge with Pakistan or want to stay independent

3) let be realistic occupying kashmir is out of question what we can do is negotiate with india to have a open border in kashmir , where people of Kashmir can move freely

4) no india solder no Pakistan soldiers in kashmir it has to be ruled by kashmiris themselves

5) both india and Pakistan has to guarantee the security of kashmir etc

if we show some flexibility kashmir problem can be solved ...

I disagree on that. In fact, when Pakistan was formed, there were a number of princely states still in Pakistan that had not signed the Instrument of Accession and only joined Pakistan over the course of history. They were some cases where the Pakistan Army annexed some of the states to bring under the control of Pakistan. The list can be found at http://en.wikipedia....tes_of_Pakistan

Hari Singh was a Hindu and at the end of would have joined India anyway. Furthermore, the whole concept of Pakistan was to divide British-India along religious lines i.e. majority Muslims regions will go to Pakistan and non-Muslims states will go to India and it is why Bangladesh was part of Pakistan.

If you think that we have lost the chance of capturing Kashmir then so has India. As per the Instrument of Accession signed by Hari Singh, the whole of Kashmir is meant to be under the Union of India which can no longer happen.

If we are to give up then we ought to consider LoC as a permanent International Border and bury the hatchet. However, we have come a long way from the initial dispute and giving it up now would only be an insult to all the martyrs who have been fighting to win Kashmir to Pakistan. We simply can not do that.

Pakistani political and military establishment has given up on Kashmir.

If truth be told most politicians in Pakistan want some kind of accommodation with India because they realize that Pakistan can never properly develop economically if we pretend India does not exist.

As far as the military is concerned only fool would believe that the generals lose any sleep over the rights of Kashmiris. The generals are only interested in Kashmir to the extent that it justifies their interference in politics in Pakistan.

Indian GDP is about 8 times bigger than Pakistan (though GDP per capita is about the same for both countries) yet Indian armed forces are only about 3 times larger than Pakistans.

Pakistan has the most powerful military in the world compared to the size of its economy (even City state like Singapore has bigger economy than Pakistan). To justify this the generals will always want India as the bogeyman no matter what happens with regards to Kashmir. Strong military without strong economy does not result in security.

Add the fact that Indian economy whether its weak or strong depends less on foreign aid than Pakistans economy. We depend far too much on how useful we are politically to the US and lesser extent China.We will have to serve these super powers as long as we continue to regard India as our major enemy.

Western countries (especially the Europeans) have learnt to live with each other after centuries of war - if Pakistan wants to develop than we too have to show maturity. If Germans decided that they wanted all German speaking regions to be part of Germany than Germany would be in perpetual conflict with its neighbours and would not have the strongest and the most stable economy in the world - despite economic chaos in the rest of Europe.

Having visited Germany many times I wish Pakistanis were more like the Germans.

Look brother, I only sense pure Indian hatred in your post and I understand that. The reality is that the world is considering India as a very large market and that is why you see a lot of economic activity there. I do agree the disgusting side of Indians but a lot of that has to do with their mindset. They may be unhygienic but they do know how to do business. They may be the rape capital but they get their voices heard and take to the streets as a nation. They undersand the power of democracy and do not waste their vote unlike us.

To fight an adversary you first need to study him and then make your calculated move. My post was meant to objectively point out the difficulties we would have based on our current situation to take on India. I understand that for some this is unthinkable but the truth is that there is now a severe disparity between the two nations in every sense of the word.

However, I do say that this CAN be fixed if we start working together. Ignore India for once and let us just focus on ourselves.

Look Pakpatriot, as your name implies, you are a patriot and so am I and so are many members on this forum. I urge you too look at the stark reality and think of ways on how we can help our country. I for one try my level best to help via NGOs where I provide free services that are highly technical in nature. I am planning methods of delivering modern, effective, and free education to Pakistanis and still working on how I can engage different parties to ensure its success. I am trying my level best to change Pakistan and the good news is that there are many Pakistanis who will support and follow you in such endeavors.

Back to topic, we need a strong economy that keeps growing through strong businesses and corruption free society and government. We need a condusive environment for growth. After we achieve that, rest assured that we would be well on the path to being a very powerful country and I strongly believe that we have the potential to do so.

I agree with some points of your post but fail to see the significance of the others. At the moment Pakistan is going through the worst phase of our history. We are in a virtual war zone situation at the moment (Vs TTP, indians and americans). The fact that Pakistan has not ended up like Iraq is a testament to our military and people.

Pakistan should try to copy india because it has a better economy than Pakistan? There are about 150 countries right now who probably have a better economy than we do. Shall we try to analyze and copy each and every one of them? india is a country that has 1.3 billion people at least (which is between 6-8 times more than ours), I don't see why we need to try to copy them especially since our people have virtually nothing in common with them in terms of race, religion, genetics, looks, culture and heritage. Only thing that we have that is similar to them is our language.

Trust me, we don't need to worry about what the rest of the world thinks of us or india. The only thing Pakistan needs is MASSIVE OVERWHELMING military power. When we have that, no one can touch or mess with us regardless of international law or opinion. Just ask the israelis, they'll tell you. When you care too much of the opinions of foreigners then it shows your cowardice and inferiority.

We don't need to "study" our enemy. the indian race and nation is the eternal enemy of Pakistan. That's all we really need to know, and how to liquidate/exterminate them IF they try to invade/attack us. That's enough to know about them.

But I do agree that in terms of military and domestic development we have reached the limit of what we can do with a virtually non-existent economy and we now need to build from scratch a powerful and strong economy. In Pakistan this can only be achieved if we have an extremely strong and powerful dictator backed up by a strong nationalistic/religious system. An "Islamic" "Mae Zedong" perhaps? democracy HAS NEVER worked for Pakistan, WILL NEVER work for Pakistan.

I agree with some points of your post but fail to see the significance of the others. At the moment Pakistan is going through the worst phase of our history. We are in a virtual war zone situation at the moment (Vs TTP, indians and americans). The fact that Pakistan has not ended up like Iraq is a testament to our military and people.

We are definitely NOT going through a phase...we are simply going down and down and down till we dont get our priorities right. We have not become like Iraq because our army was never destroyed nor had we been occupied and had our government model ripped apart. I do not see how you compared Iraq and Pakistan....they are not comparable at all.

Pakistan should try to copy india because it has a better economy than Pakistan? There are about 150 countries right now who probably have a better economy than we do. Shall we try to analyze and copy each and every one of them? india is a country that has 1.3 billion people at least (which is between 6-8 times more than ours), I don't see why we need to try to copy them especially since our people have virtually nothing in common with them in terms of race, religion, genetics, looks, culture and heritage. Only thing that we have that is similar to them is our language.

I do not see when and where I said that we should copy India's economy!! I only said that we need to strengthen our economy. We do not have to adopt India's model but even if we did or some portions of it...there would be nothing wrong with that.

Trust me, we don't need to worry about what the rest of the world thinks of us or india. The only thing Pakistan needs is MASSIVE OVERWHELMING military power. When we have that, no one can touch or mess with us regardless of international law or opinion. Just ask the israelis, they'll tell you. When you care too much of the opinions of foreigners then it shows your cowardice and inferiority.

These are your words not mine. But I would like to ask you a question...how do you intend to arm and maintain such a MASSIVE OVERWHELMING military might? How do you think we can achieve that? As far as Israelis are concerned, they also play with politics and have a strong economy....should we negate that?

We don't need to "study" our enemy. the indian race and nation is the eternal enemy of Pakistan. That's all we really need to know, and how to liquidate/exterminate them IF they try to invade/attack us. That's enough to know about them.

So our military should now forget about strategy and tactics in military combat...is that so? And since India is an eternal enemy...we should just rush in...is that what you are saying?

Do you realise how naive you sound??? I expected better from you.

But I do agree that in terms of military and domestic development we have reached the limit of what we can do with a virtually non-existent economy and we now need to build from scratch a powerful and strong economy. In Pakistan this can only be achieved if we have an extremely strong and powerful dictator backed up by a strong nationalistic/religious system. An "Islamic" "Mae Zedong" perhaps? democracy HAS NEVER worked for Pakistan, WILL NEVER work for Pakistan.

This is something really strange and really do not understand it at all. There is no such thing as a "virtualy non-existent economy". We do have an economy and there is trade going on and borrow from the IMF. The problem is that we are in debt and we only need to get out of it. Our currency is legal but has devalued greatly. There is no such thing as building an economy from scratch...I don't even understand what that means!!

Definition of Economy: the wealth and resources of a country or region, especially in terms of the production and consumption of goods and services.

I think what you mean is that we need to better manage our economy and I agree with that and is exactly what I am trying to say.

I can respect your view of installing an Islamic dictatorship rather than having a democracy but I would not side with you in this regard. I believe that democracy has great potential...the issue is that Pakistanis do not understand the value of a vote. But I am hopeful that this will change and I do see it changing. We should strive to have more transparent voting system and then we will have much better results and the power will be with the people.

Please Pakpatriot, I really admire your patriotism but this post raises many questions for me, at the very least? You have a pure hatred for Indians and I understand that but don't let it cloud your judgement and concept on how a country is to be developed. Bring to me any example of a nation that successfully developed overwhelming military might from naught in any point in time of mankinds history!?

In order to have a strong military (tanks, jets, submarines, missiles) you have to build them, and then to maintain them.

in order to build them, you need good scientists and strong industrial base.

In order to have good scientists, you need good and strong educational system,

in order to have a strong industrial base, you have to incitate people to take initiative to invest in business, factories etc

Ok, but who's mama will pay for good educational system ? who's mama will pay for machiniery etc for industries ? it's not free. :-)

Correct. What you are addressing is the basic infrastructure of a country i.e education, roads, schools, industry etc. etc.

Basically, we take a step back and look at our national assets and use them to build such services and infrastructure. In Pakistan's case, we have large amounts of land ideal for agriculture...we should develop that first. We also have coals and other natural resources, we should exploit that as well. This is the core industry that we develop. If we do not have the money to develop it then we take a loan from say...friendly countries or the IMF. We then develop objectively and transparently and start our industry. As we start generating profits and build our economy, we start paying back.

We can also invite direct foreign investment in these fields and make deals that will benefit Pakistan in the long run. As an example, Saudi Arabia was a very poor nation before it discovered oil. It were the Americans who discovered oil and established ARAMCO...a joint venture between the two countries on a 49-51% profit sharing. As the oil was sold and revenue was generated, Saudi Arabia's economy started booming. At one point, they had enough money to buy back the American shares and became a totally independent country. Since oil is the most abundant natural resource of Saudi Arabia, they sold plenty of oil and generated massive wealth. They then started building other industries and infrastructure to benefit the country. Compare Saudi Arabia now to what it was before oil was discovered....it is unbelievable.

Likewise for China, their most amazing resource are its people i.e. cheap labor. They attracted massive manufacturing industries from around the world and developed cheap products. This generated income for the country and they strategically started investing this income to build other industries and infrastructure. I dont think I need mention any further as to how sucessful they are.

Therefore, we need to do the same and we are not as primitive as some people believe. We already have many things in place but it is horrible and disastrous mismanagement that is now eroding what little we have developed since the inception of Pakistan. This is the most alarming issue and this needs to be addressed immediately. This is why people are very frustrated and agitated with the politicians and want new leaders.

I hope that people get their act together and the moment there is security in Pakistan...the country will start growing once again.

Correct. What you are addressing is the basic infrastructure of a country i.e education, roads, schools, industry etc. etc.

Basically, we take a step back and look at our national assets and use them to build such services and infrastructure. In Pakistan's case, we have large amounts of land ideal for agriculture...we should develop that first. We also have coals and other natural resources, we should exploit that as well. This is the core industry that we develop. If we do not have the money to develop it then we take a loan from say...friendly countries or the IMF. We then develop objectively and transparently and start our industry. As we start generating profits and build our economy, we start paying back.

We can also invite direct foreign investment in these fields and make deals that will benefit Pakistan in the long run. As an example, Saudi Arabia was a very poor nation before it discovered oil. It were the Americans who discovered oil and established ARAMCO...a joint venture between the two countries on a 49-51% profit sharing. As the oil was sold and revenue was generated, Saudi Arabia's economy started booming. At one point, they had enough money to buy back the American shares and became a totally independent country. Since oil is the most abundant natural resource of Saudi Arabia, they sold plenty of oil and generated massive wealth. They then started building other industries and infrastructure to benefit the country. Compare Saudi Arabia now to what it was before oil was discovered....it is unbelievable.

Likewise for China, their most amazing resource are its people i.e. cheap labor. They attracted massive manufacturing industries from around the world and developed cheap products. This generated income for the country and they strategically started investing this income to build other industries and infrastructure. I dont think I need mention any further as to how sucessful they are.

Therefore, we need to do the same and we are not as primitive as some people believe. We already have many things in place but it is horrible and disastrous mismanagement that is now eroding what little we have developed since the inception of Pakistan. This is the most alarming issue and this needs to be addressed immediately. This is why people are very frustrated and agitated with the politicians and want new leaders.

I hope that people get their act together and the moment there is security in Pakistan...the country will start growing once again.

Here a less than half baked idea that I haven't really gone through much but I think we are looking at it the wrong way. Yes we need a shed load of stuff if we want to beat the Indians using traditional tactics and weapons.

I mean sure there is more than one way to skin a cat. The Americans have complete air superiority over Afghanistan and that hasn't stopped the Taliban from doing whatever they are doing to them.

I am not saying we go full gorilla on the Indians but my point is that we can adjust our strategy according to our strengths&weaknesses. The difference between Indians aren't Americans and Pakistan isn't Afghanistan.

If we grew a pair we'd find a way. We seem to lack courage - the leadership. It's so mentally defeated that its unable to act.

W/salaam

In case I forgot here is it is... Asalaamualikum

"There is none worthy of worship but He, glorified be He: [Far is He] above that which they associate [with Him]" (Qur'an 9:31)

Not equal are the owners of the fire and the owners of the Garden. The owners of the Garden, they are the victorious. [Quran 59:20]

Allah knows best [who are] your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Friend, and Allah is sufficient as a Helper. [4:45]

Fudayl ibn Iyaad said: "Verily, if an action was done sincerely for the sake of Allah but was not correct, it will not be accepted by Allah. And if the action was correct but not done sincerely it will not be accepted until the act is sincere and correct. For it to be sincere, it has to be done for the sake of Allah, and in order for it to be correct, it has to agree to the sunnah."

the Messenger of Allah pbuh says; “whoever does not care about the affairs of the Muslims is not one of them.”

Here a less than half baked idea that I haven't really gone through much but I think we are looking at it the wrong way. Yes we need a shed load of stuff if we want to beat the Indians using traditional tactics and weapons.

I mean sure there is more than one way to skin a cat. The Americans have complete air superiority over Afghanistan and that hasn't stopped the Taliban from doing whatever they are doing to them.

I am not saying we go full gorilla on the Indians but my point is that we can adjust our strategy according to our strengths&weaknesses. The difference between Indians aren't Americans and Pakistan isn't Afghanistan.

If we grew a pair we'd find a way. We seem to lack courage - the leadership. It's so mentally defeated that its unable to act.

W/salaam

Guerilla warfare, as the name implies, is the use of guerilla tactics which is generally combat in an urban setting where you intend to keep your enemy close and use hit and run tactics.

If we are to go with your method, unconventional as it is, it would mean that we deliberately allow the Indian forces to cross the international border and then occupy our citites where we then expect our Armed forces to carry out guerilla tactics. That would mean that Pakistan will be the sole country that will suffer each and every kind of collateral damage.

We will have countless number of civilian and military deaths. Our economy will be paralysed as will our governance. We would be on the defensive consistently simply because the enemy is now insde the country. Each and every move would be towards expelling the enemy rather than focusing on hitting them on their land.

Guerilla warfare results when the conventional options fail and the you repel the enemy by making occupation a costly and exhaustive endeavor. This is why guerilla tactics are used and it is all about waiting out the enemy. This is why the US loses every war simply because it is fighting wars away from its borders which increases the cost of war and the ability to hold ground a gigantic effort.

However, I often believe that Guerilla forces are the ultimate of losers even though they may repel the invading force and cause it to bleed. It may be a symbolic and political victory but when you tabulate the casualty figures....the losers are always the guerilla forces and the population that they use for cover.

If India invades and we use guerilla tactics, for sure we will hurt them but it will not be before they destroy large parts of our cities, rape our women and children, kill indiscrimately, incur massive economic losses. Also, it will be much more easy for India to maintain the momentum simply because it shares a massive border with us and that means that they supply and logistics will be consistent.

noxiouspython may have been referring to a full-on attack when he used the world 'gorilla' and not the guerilla warfare.

Guerilla warfare, as the name implies, is the use of guerilla tactics which is generally combat in an urban setting where you intend to keep your enemy close and use hit and run tactics.

If we are to go with your method, unconventional as it is, it would mean that we deliberately allow the Indian forces to cross the international border and then occupy our citites where we then expect our Armed forces to carry out guerilla tactics. That would mean that Pakistan will be the sole country that will suffer each and every kind of collateral damage.

We will have countless number of civilian and military deaths. Our economy will be paralysed as will our governance. We would be on the defensive consistently simply because the enemy is now insde the country. Each and every move would be towards expelling the enemy rather than focusing on hitting them on their land.

Guerilla warfare results when the conventional options fail and the you repel the enemy by making occupation a costly and exhaustive endeavor. This is why guerilla tactics are used and it is all about waiting out the enemy. This is why the US loses every war simply because it is fighting wars away from its borders which increases the cost of war and the ability to hold ground a gigantic effort.

However, I often believe that Guerilla forces are the ultimate of losers even though they may repel the invading force and cause it to bleed. It may be a symbolic and political victory but when you tabulate the casualty figures....the losers are always the guerilla forces and the population that they use for cover.

If India invades and we use guerilla tactics, for sure we will hurt them but it will not be before they destroy large parts of our cities, rape our women and children, kill indiscrimately, incur massive economic losses. Also, it will be much more easy for India to maintain the momentum simply because it shares a massive border with us and that means that they supply and logistics will be consistent.