Israel orders African refugees to leave

Well jeeze Sargent Carter I'm told walls can't work in North America.. Where did Israel buy theirs?

"Thousands of Africans crossed from Egypt into Israel before it erected a fence along the border.Israel calls them 'infiltrators' and says they are mostly economic migrants whose numbers threaten its Jewish character."

Most African Refugees in Israel are not seeking asylum but are economic opportunists.

Ponder the irony that they are going thousands of miles, through other countries (who have a "shoot to kill" policy) to reach the better life they yearn for in... "apartheid" Israel.

We also see that the welfare of the refugees is beside the point (where are the threads condemning the countries killing those refugees along the way? Or condemning the refugees home country for (allegedly) killing those who are refouled? Or threads about other countries unwilling to absorb refugees?

Why, as usual, is the microscope only focused on Israel? Because they hate Jews!). The entirety of this "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as per Aristo/Shark/speare) is to demonize Israel using these refugees as a hammer.

Consider the further duplicity. Illegal immigrants who have been in Israel a handful of years need to be granted citizenship there. Yet when it comes to Arab refugees and 4 generations of descendants, rather than having them absorbed into the countries in which they have lived for 70 years (and may have previously originated), where 4 generations have been born, he demands that they must be refouled (sent back to Israel. Never mind that few (10%) even want to. In this case he wants to use these refugees/descendants as a demographic army by which to over-run Israel (because "one Jewish state is too many").

Then there's his claim that Jews are "Europeans" who don't belong in the "MidEast"... but Africans from about as far way as eastern Europe.... do?

When it comes to haters, don't expect to find consistency in principles or logic.The only thing they are true to is their own depravity and hate.

|| if they leave, they get $3,500 and a free flight to - apparently to Rwanda or Uganda.

So already we see not only that it's not "refoulment" to their country of origin but to a 3rd country.If only Holocaust victims - his perverted comparison! - had that option... and were also given $3,500.(That's about 1.5x the per capita GDP. Equivalent to $75,000 in the USA.)

|| Israel was created as a refuge from persecution. Does that inform the way this is being talked about there? ...Yes, absolutely. There has been very outspoken opposition from groups arguing those very points.

|| Now, of course, we should say, you know, this is not Nazi Germany. This deportation plan also does not include women. It doesn't include people with children and many others. And Israel is not the only country in the world that's tried to encourage people to leave who are in the country illegally.

I have no clue what he posted in his propaganda thread, but I'm sure it doesn't mention the above and is his usual nonsense absent any critical thinking filter. It's just raw hate, which overflows from him all over RJ. That's the only reason he's here, on what after a decade this shill thinks is a "dating app".

ARL> Most African Refugees in Israel are not seeking asylum but are economic opportunists

Note that the idiot admits these are refugees (hence not “economic opportunists” - which is his slur for immigrants) and thus entitled to the full protections of the 1951 Refugee Convention.

Proved wrong on the point of law, only his bile remains.

ARL> Ponder the irony that they are going thousands of miles, through other countries (who have a "shoot to kill" policy) to reach the better life they yearn for in... "apartheid" Israel

Totally twisted. No one denies that Israel is a wealthy, donor-dependent client state of the US, hence an attractive place for any indigent refugee to create a new life. The Apartheid (no need for the scare quotes) is in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, where segregated infrastructure is provided to different religious and ethnic groups. This isn’t some nebulous slogan: Israel is in flagrant violation of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, as recapitulated here many times.

ARL> We also see that the welfare of the refugees is beside the point (where are the threads condemning the countries killing those refugees along the way? Or condemning the refugees home country for (allegedly) killing those who are returned? Or threads about other countries unwilling to absorb refugees?

Does anyone defend and shill for the persecuting states?Or the states the asylum seekers travel through (mostly dark dictatorships) that deny them refuge?

Right, no one. Unlike the army of online losers with nothing better to do than ass-wipe for Israel...

ARL> Consider the further duplicity. Illegal immigrants who have been in Israel a handful of years need to be granted citizenship there

Now you’re pretending not to know the difference between an immigrant (i.e. “opportunist”...) and a refugee? Even while admitting that the term “refugee” does indeed apply?

ARL> Yet when it comes to Arab refugees

Right, these are also refugees (many of whom are Israeli citizens as well) that Israel expelled.The Refugee Convention demands that signatories not discriminate on the basis of race or religion in taking in those in need of asylum. Yet for 70 years Israel has been allowed to violate this provision.

ARL> rather than having them absorbed into the countries in which they have lived for 70 years (and may have previously originated)

But have retained “genuine links to the land [of their origin]”, hence eligible for return.

ARL> he demands that they must be refouled (sent back to Israel)

Refoulement refers to the deportation of refugees to countries where they are liable to face persecution. You’re saying Israel is such a country?

ARL> Never mind that few (10%) even want to

According to a long-discredited poll conducted over a decade ago among one group of eligible refugees, famously posing non-sequiturs as questions.

ARL> In this case he wants to use these refugees/descendants as a demographic army by which to over-run Israel

Quite the contrary. Like all mainstream human rights organisations I support their right to choose their own fate, which is precisely what international law proscribes. Your fear is that they will choose to abandon their hellish lives in countries that are not their home to return to Palestine, allowing the natives to one day outnumber the settlers - a major problem for a country that is not actually a “democracy” but an ETHNOCRACY concerned with racial privilege.

Not that he cares a damn about doing right by these refugees where they live (an inhumanity he seeks to project onto me). Indeed he supports defunding the only U.N. agency that meets their nutritional, infrastructural and educational needs, upon which 80% and more are dependent for a dignified life. From “friends” like these, Palestinians would be well-advised to run a thousand miles.

ARL> Then there's his claim that Jews are "Europeans" who don't belong in the "MidEast"... but Africans from about as far way as eastern Europe.... do?

Another flunkie fail. The question is not of ancestral “belonging” but the RIGHTS of REFUGEES.

Seriously, even a three-year-old could figure this shit out.

ARL> [spams an article referring to deportation of African REFUGEES - not “immigrants” or “opportunists”]

|| if they leave, they get $3,500 and a free flight to - apparently to Rwanda or Uganda.

ARL> So ... we see not only that it's not "refoulment" to their country of origin but to a 3rd country

This is the problem with those ignorant of international law - they constantly require instruction.

The definition of refoulement:

|| 1. No Contracting State shall expel or return (“refouler”) a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, member- ship of a particular social group or political opinion.

You mean the 200,000 or so fake ones (including your own family!) living in Israel alone?

In the meantime we can amply confirm that the Aspergers-Retarded idiot is clueless on international law, a vile demagogue through and through, and an anti-Black racist to boot.

Conclusion: You can’t trust a single word he says.

You're not giving much credibility to ''political activism" as you claim you're inclined towards when you call people derogatory names, and refer to others who are simply dispensing their own opinions on matters, "the army of online losers with nothing better to do than ass-wipe for Israel".

A lot of us have minds here that are capable of forming thoughts and weigh the evidence on both sides. So please don't categorize everybody into just one, existential mould. You never know, you and I or anybody else here might disagree on area, but agree on a lot of things. Don't alienate a potential supporter who may not be as informed on a matter as you.You seem like a smart guy, stick to activism without sounding like a political pundit and just keep shedding light on your issues.

Beachcomber, most people on RJ ignore these trolls who are not only pathological liars but also racist Anti-semites.

Both were banned from the system about 2 years ago (with all their old posts deleted. No great loss that garbage, but makes the threads below awkward to read).

Now you've gotten a glimpse of their propaganda ping-pong, too.

Just so you know what type of people you are dealing with: The AyaTrolLiar JPhleM (my contribution to this name is changing another user's creative "AyaTrollah" to "AyaTrolLiar", JPhleM was derived by a 3rd user) claimed to have me on "ignore" for maybe a year. Yet magically he would respond to maybe 5% of what I said (the parts he thought he could handle, but failing there, too). He explained that "friends" were emailing him what I said. Indeed, he "explained" his posting minutes after I did because he was getting so much RJ email that he had to login at 10-15 minute intervals just to keep up (delusions are strong with this one, who likewise pretended to have been to Gaza and to read a textbook that is only available in Hebrew, never having been translated). Not that this would explain how said "friends" could login, read what I said, email him and have him post a response within minutes of my posting (he's a clever by half flunky fool).

Long con story short, turns out he created a sock-puppet and would constantly stalk my profile (evidently, by his report, at 10-15 minute intervals). If he actually emailed himself remains unknown. What else was there to do in his mum's basement?

On Facebook, another immature scheme got him into more trouble. He blocked me and similarly stalked me with a sock-puppet, then responding to what I said - in a way I couldn't see it and expose his lies. When friends asked me how come I didn't rip his arguments to shreds, the scheme unraveled. He ended getting kicked out or banned from those groups. So now he evidently has nothing better to do than stalk me on RJ - which after using for nearly a decade he thought was a "dating app"!

A 4th RJ user opined that he must be my sock puppet given that when I took several breaks from RJ, when I returned the AyaTrolLiar responded within minutes (he must have been waiting and looking for my posts, at 10-15 minute intervals, for weeks and months!). He further pointed out that his arguments were so weak, like a plant in the audience, they were designed to make me look good.

A 5th RJ user, much wiser than me, dismissed him as "an all around shitty excuse for a human being" and paid him all the attention he deserves: none.

He's so reviled here that when people heard about his FB fiasco... they asked me to give them a link to his profile so that they could pre-emptively block him.

While he lied that he was a history major (his FB profile said "music history", though he now claims that's also not true), he seeks to read history backward rather than forward through time. As if events in the 1920s were informed by realities today.Palestinian Arabs exist today, ergo they must have existed 50, 90 and 200 years ago.If it were convenient, he'd argue that the pilgrims were Americans (in the modern sense).

His warped methods start with confirmation bias (e.g. Googling for "gays spread aids" isn't going to give one the best sources), filtering out the 90% of the hits that nonetheless totally disagree with his query, then data mining the others for useful tidbits... and twisting them.

For example, he claimed that the Hizballah death toll in Syria of 1,048 was the best available number and that it could just as well be lower as higher. The source wrote that this is the absolute minimum, that Hizbullah has a history of lying about fatalities, and that the number is likely much higher.

Elsewhere he twisted a half sentence to mean the opposite of what the full sentence, paragraph, chapter and book say. (I own and have read the book, so immediately exposed the rat.)

Similarly he sought to twist what a historian wrote in his book to mean the exact opposite of the book's title (which he didn't volunteer).

Granted, he could be the "useful idiot" who gets this from bad sources. But if so you'd think he'd wise up over time rather than repeat the lies in other threads, hoping to fool those who didn't see the refutation in the prior thread.

He frequently argues from conflicting premises (A → B and NotA → C, as if that "proves" that B and C true)

There's also frequently a cascade of lies. SamX/Covfefe argued that "Jews started the violence in 1948". When shown wrong, he shifted to arguing that the Arabs were wronged (new lies) and thus they were right to start the violence.

He likewise explained that A and NotA can both be true "in different contexts".

Best to understand that their "integrity isn't to the truth (or logic) but to the cause.SamX/Covfefe has opined that "lying for the cause" is like a "white lie".

He's also in the habit of vandalizing Wikipedia entries to make them more "fair".Like, how "fair" is it to mention that Arafat was a terrorist?Or that he was possibly gay?

You'd think gay Palestinian Arabs would take pride in their hero being gay.Yet the gay stigma is so strong in that society that they can't tolerate the thought.Talk about repression and internalized homophobia, eh?

Look how they just hijacked this thread.Exposing they hate Israel/Jews more than they care about African refugees.Indeed, they only care about refugees or Africans who are lucky enough to end up in Israel:

You can see the same motif in these threads, where they lie to cover up for Hamas, claim that one can safely be out in "Palestine (oddly posted by someone who is closeted in Arizona) and never advocate for gay rights in "Palestine". There's no room for that in their agenda.

17-year old Palestinian Arab terrorist, incited by PA leaders, slits throat of 13-year old American girl sleeping in her bed.Trolls: there are "Reasons", The Child's Bedroom Is A "War Zone", Parents Should Be Arrested For Using The Child As A "Human Shield"http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4227381

When it comes to issues, trolls can never address a topic in its thread.Where their propaganda lies have already been dispensed.Thus they repeat their lies everywhere else.In this thread, in threads about the Olympics or even Hummus.Always trying to prey on people falling for their oft-repeated lies.

If you were a bona fide victim of "apartheid", "ethnic cleansing", "land theft", "starvation", "massacres" let alone "genocide", would you reject out-of-hand a compromise that only gave you 99.5%?http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210

Jerusalem was NEVER an Arab Capital, not even of Jund Filastin ~1,000 years ago, a military district of foreign Arab empires that occupied Israel (Spain was occupied for longer, and more recently)http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4222798

So now we have all those links if anyone wants to re-open discussion on any of those points.Thus let's get back to this thread!But recall: trolls can never discuss a topic in its thread, where their spam propaganda lies were already exposed.Look for them to persist with the nonsense here.

Most African "Refugees" in Israel are not seeking asylum but are economic opportunists.

AyaTrolLiar> admits these are refugees (hence not “economic opportunists” - which is his slur for immigrants) and thus entitled to the full protections of the 1951 Refugee Convention.

To try and help the clever-by-half flunky, I added quotation marks.Maybe now he can actually try to formulate a real argument.

Ponder the irony that they are going thousands of miles, through other countries (who have a "shoot to kill" policy) to reach the better life they yearn for in... "apartheid" Israel.

AyaTrolLiar> No one denies that Israel is a wealthy, donor-dependent client state of the US

LOL. Because US aid amounts to what, 2% of GDP?

Even if they fled their country of origin because they are in danger, they could have found safety in the first, second or third country they went to. Instead they keep going... to a "wealthy" country. Not for safety but for economic opportunity.

AyaTrolLiar> The Apartheid (no need for the scare quotes) is in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, where segregated infrastructure is provided to different religious and ethnic groups.

How odd that when SamX/Covfefe and his sock puppets (and perhaps one other legit person) claimed that Israel itself was an Apartheid state... the AyaTrolLiar never bothered to correct them. To the contrary, if he wasn't himself saying that, he was taking issue with me arguing against it.

There is no comparison between the disputed territories (an issue of a border dispute over a few square miles) to "Apartheid". For starters, international law prevents Israel from applying its civilian law in these territories. Furthermore, 98% of the Palestinian Arabs living in Trans/Jordan's former so-called "West Bank' and in Hamas' Gaza live not under israeli law but the rule of the Palestinian Authority or Hamas.

Did you see what he skipped?

they are going thousands of miles, through other countries (who have a "shoot to kill policy")

AyaTrolLiar> [Gone!]

We also see that the welfare of the refugees is beside the point (where are the threads condemning the countries killing those refugees along the way? Or condemning the refugees home country for (allegedly) killing those who are refouled? Or threads about other countries unwilling to absorb refugees?

AyaTrolLiar> Does anyone defend and shill for the persecuting states?Or the states the asylum seekers travel through (mostly dark dictatorships) that deny them refuge?

ROTFL. It's as if the point sailed over his head.Countries should only be condemned if someone is "shil[ling] for them"?

Think about that reversal of cause & effect.Israel is being defended because it - unlike other countries - is being selectively attacked (because they hate Jews).

Why, as usual, is the microscope only focused on Israel? Because they hate Jews!). The entirety of this "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as per Aristo/Shark/speare) is to demonize Israel using these refugees as a hammer.

AyaTrolLiar> [Crawled back under his rock]

Consider the further duplicity. Illegal immigrants who have been in Israel a handful of years need to be granted citizenship there. Yet when it comes to Arab refugees and 4 generations of descendants, rather than having them absorbed into the countries in which they have lived for 70 years (and may have previously originated), where 4 generations have been born, he demands that they must be refouled (sent back to Israel). Never mind that few (10%) even want to. In this case he wants to use these refugees/descendants as a demographic army by which to over-run Israel (because "one Jewish state is too many").

AyaTrolLiar> these [Arabs] are also refugees (many of whom are Israeli citizens as well) that Israel expelled.

None of them are Israeli citizens - else they wouldn't be refugees.The majority fled the Arab-initiated war of 1948 without ever seeing a Jewish/Israeli soldier to "expel" them.

The population is mostly descendants of the refugees (not normally recognized as refugees themselves).

So to return to the point: why is it that 4th generation descendants of Arab refugees in Lebanon shouldn't be granted Lebanese citizenship (let alone why their ancestors weren't 60-some years ago)?

Indeed, he then forgets the point completely as like a bot he activates his spam propaganda talking points:

AyaTrolLiar> denial of Palestinian ethnicity and nationalism

The fact of the matter is that the threshold for an ARAB refugee in 1949 (not yet then known as a "Palestinian refugee") was residence in Mandate Palestine for a minimum of a mere 2 years. Argued down from 10 by the Arab Leauge, so that scores of thousands would qualify for international assistance.

What this means is that if an Arab came from Lebanon to Mandate Palestine in 1945, he was an Arab refugee and he and his descendents became "Palestinian". But if his brother joined him in 1947... he didn't qualify as a refugee and wasn't thrown into a camp. He went back to being Lebanese, as are his descendents.

Indeed, the AyaTrolLiar himself has stated that 100,000 to 200,000 of the Palestinian Arabs were recent immigrants.

Longer term, we've seen that there was migration. The Bedouins didn't arrive until the 18th century (and weren't commonly considered "Palestinians" until the 1990s). Scientists note the commonality of genetic diseases among clans in Jordan and Israel. The 1911 Britannica describes a large number of Egyptians (who arrived in the 1830s) and hadn't yet been integrated... but 37 years later they had no Egyptian heritage?

Now they claim that the Armenians are also "Palestinians" (guess it's no longer an "ethnicity descended from Canaanites, no Philistines, I mean early Christians and Jews"). Many if not most of them didn't arrive until after 1915, refugees from the Armenian Genocide in Turkey.)

In fact, all of northern Israel was part of the Vilayet of Lebanon until the end of WW I. There was no border between Beirut and Acre, Haifa, Nazareth, Safed, Beit Shean, Jenin and Tiberias. It was only the establishment of a border (drawn by European powers) that made them (Mandate) Palestinians in 1923. Ponder that not a single Palestinian or Lebanese ended up on the "wrong" side of that border (allegedly meant to "divide and conquere", but the division was perfect?). Yet 25 years later they had no connection whatsoever to Lebanon?!

AyaTrolLiar> have retained “genuine links to the land [of their origin]”, hence eligible for return.

See? Rather than argue that these refugees - going on 70 years later - and their descendants should be citizens in the country where they - and parents, grandparents and great-grandparents - were born, that they should have the freedom of relocation (out of camps), education, work and citizenship - guaranteed by that convention! - is lost on him.

All he can see is a potential demographic army to "return" to Israel and over-run it.

AyaTrolLiar> Refoulement refers to the deportation of refugees to countries where they are liable to face persecution. You’re saying Israel is such a country?

LOL. The refugees/descendants themselves consider it an "enemy" country.And the trolls have told us how bad Arab life is there, you know, "apartheid".

AyaTrolLiar> According to a long-discredited poll conducted over a decade ago

It was the most comprehensive poll, by ivy-league trained academics. While it may be dated, it still is the best data available and there's no reason to believe perceptions have changed with the passage of time.

Note further that propagandists like him made the exact same points when the poll was fresh.

So another instance of him not going to let inconvenient facts get in his way.

AyaTrolLiar> Your fear is that they will choose to abandon their hellish lives

See? This is precisely why he doesn't argue to make their lives better in the present (or any time in the last 70 years). He needs their lives to be "hellish", otherwise his demographic army would evaporate.

How many more generations will he condemn to live "hellish lives" to be his pawns?!

Then there's his claim that Jews are "Europeans" who don't "belong" in the "MidEast"... but Africans from about as far way as eastern Europe.... do?

AyaTrolLiar> The question is not of ancestral “belonging” but the RIGHTS of REFUGEES.

He's made the continentalist argument of "ancestral 'belonging'" to keep Jewish refugees (guess they have no rights) - who he terms "Europeans of Jewish faith"! - out of "Arab lands".

In other words, Jewish refugees from Europe - and from the Mideast - have no "right of refugees" in the ancient Jewish homeland.Only African refugees do?!

When it comes to haters, don't expect to find consistency in principles or logic.The only thing they are true to is their own depravity and hate.

AyaTrolLiar> [confirms it!]

|| if they leave, they get $3,500 and a free flight to - apparently to Rwanda or Uganda.

(That's about 1.5x the per capita GDP. Equivalent to $75,000 in the USA.)

So already we see not only that it's not "refoulment" to their country of origin but to a 3rd country.

AyaTrolLiar> "where his life or freedom would be threatened"

ROTFL. He provides no evidence that their lives would be endangered in Rwanda or Uganda.

If only Holocaust victims - his perverted comparison! - had that option... and were also given $3,500.

AyaTrolLiar> the 200,000 or so fake ones (including your own family!) living in Israel alone?

Go figure. He just can't help being the "all around shitty excuse of a human being".

|| Israel was created as a refuge from persecution. Does that inform the way this is being talked about there? ...Yes, absolutely. There has been very outspoken opposition from groups arguing those very points.

|| Now, of course, we should say, you know, this is not Nazi Germany. This deportation plan also does not include women. It doesn't include people with children and many others. And Israel is not the only country in the world that's tried to encourage people to leave who are in the country illegally.

I have no clue what he posted in his propaganda thread, but I'm sure it doesn't mention the above and is his usual nonsense absent any critical thinking filter. It's just raw hate, which overflows from him all over RJ. That's the only reason he's here, on what after a decade this shill thinks is a "dating app".