Yeah, it's a word defined by man which I suspect doesn't quite cover God. You are still free to choose.

It's nice to see you are another Christian being quite selective in what you answer to. Cutting out the large chunk of my post where I show your concept of God to be faulty and then say "Nu-uh, it's still the way I want it to be" is not gonna fly here.

Does God know everything? Yes or No

Is God the creator of everything? Yes or No

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Yet, we continue to bring children into this world everyday. Not that we created it, but we are fully aware of it. I believe God created us in love knowing full well the potential for pain and suffering. I'm confident it will be worth it.

As it has already been said: The difference is that God supposedly created this world.

That means he willingly and knowingly created a world dooming uncounted billions to neverending torture. He did not just know about it he wanted it that way!

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Water=universal ingredient. Earth=different. Some stuff from water; some stuff from water+earth.

Moving the goal post.

You and the bible say ground creatures are made from dirt, which simply is not true.

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But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer.

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Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

Tell me in which way the environmental change led to humans

- having wisdom teeth that often don't fit into the mouth, causing abscesses which in turn can also cause damage to the jaw and even the brain

- having the testicles outside the male body

- having our abdomen completely unprotected

- having an appendix which is not only useless for humans but can actually kill them if not medically extracted.

- having a pelvis in females that is too small for babies heads, often causing injuries during birth

- having hip joints that are more suited for walking on all fours but that damage easily and are prone to deteriorate with age when installed in a biped (which would be us)

- having DNA which causes congenital birth effects leading to babies born with partial gills or tumors of notochord (a type of tissue we don't need at all because we have a spine out of bone. It's only found in ancient animals before the development of the spine of bone)

- having poorly designed foot and ankle bones that would be fine in a quadruped but cause problems if used in a biped.

- having large veins in our legs that can clog up and send out blood clogs to the lungs and brain.

- having semi soft disc material in our spine and neck which is fine for quadrupeds but unsuitable for bipeds because it will be compressed by the body weight too much and can cause painful traumas.

People say this all the time, but I literally just choked on my rum & diet. I snort/laughed first, then tried to catch my breath, and the drink went back down my nose while I dribbled booze into my lap.

Hello. Thanks for your reply. I am very appreciative. Can you please be more detailed, if you don't mind? You are making lots of claims ("all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans", "all gods are imaginary, human inventions", etc - how can you possibly know this?) without providing the evidence or reasons to support them. Religions do exactly the same as this, don't they? I don't believe in God or gods or Satan, etc, yet I don't really have any reasons for my disbelief, other than the fact I have never experienced these things with my human senses/and because these charcaters don't seem convincing to me. I recognise that these views alone to not proof that these characters do not exist. I want to be sure that my disbelief in God/Satan is founded on good reason and evidence. Telling me that "there's no evidence" or that "they are all myths" does not tell me anything other than you are not convinced. I need actual examples backed by science/reason. Please, if you don't mind and have the time, can you give me clear/testable factual and logical reasons to my question ("Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent.."). Thanks for helping me. It means a great deal.

Why do you need reasons and evidence for a DIS-belief? If there is simply no evidence for a thing, there is really no reason at all to looking for evidence of it's NON-existence. We call that "proving a negative", and it is rarely a necessary thing in the real world.

Many theists ask us to prove there is no god. And we simply don't bother replying in general because it is a pointless exercise. Rather, in your case, you would simply remain atheist, or perhaps agnostic, until such a time that positive evidence surfaces that shows there is or might be a real god. Since that has never happened throughout history, including for each and every god ever posited, then what reason is there to DIS-prove them - any or all of them?

I was called out on this forum when I made the claim that all gods are imaginary, and my point was that there is no reason to DIS-prove all gods, but the argument towards me was that I must state that it is only my opinion, since I could not prove that all gods are imaginary. I can understand that argument, but as a matter of practicality, no evidence of any real god is equal to all gods are imaginary, even though I cannot prove that all gods are indeed imaginary.

I may have been wrong for making such a BOLD claim, but it makes no difference at all, when in fact no real evidence for any real god has ever surfaced. If any gods were ever real, there would be some demonstrable evidence for them, and I would be inclined to change my argument. That's how it works.

@Asmoday, I like that list. Is there a comprehensive "God's Greatest Fuckups" somewhere? Some others I'd include are:

A spine that makes sense for a quadruped but not for an upright biped.

An optic nerve that passes through the retina and terminates in the front side, causing all kinds of potential problems.

And my personal favorite cos I'm over 40....

A prostate gland through which pass all kinds of excretory and reproductive tubes, blood vessels and nerves. If it only gets enlarged, you have the pleasure of getting your pecker roto-rootered with little razor blades. If it actually turns cancerous, the doc has to cut it out, with a very good chance of rendering you impotent, incontinent or both, and even a possibility of bleeding to death. I want a word with the incompetent assclown who designed that one.

Course it's all our fault due to man's sin nature...

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I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?

Why didn't the Chineese notice the Flood?

I googled. You're right. There has never been a flood in China. Hmmmmmm

You may think you are being glib, but that is not how it is being received. You come off as hostile and cocky. It is also a blatant dodge that does not address the point.

I would like to suggest that you try having a conversation rather than firing off one liners. It would make your stay here longer, more productive and more pleasant for everyone. I give you this advice in the hopes that you will be a solid, contributing member.

No, those in battle against the Jews had made their choices to be in battle against the Jews.

Yes, and if there were free will, the Israelites would have had to fight them with no omnipotent being on their side affecting the outcome. Get it?

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Yes, I believe in the original sin and everyone since then.

then how does free will work if I am damned for something I didnt' do?

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God 'hangs' around with evil or is aware of evil and can communicate with it?

Per your bible, but you claimed it doesn't say that. You said

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If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him.

If evilseperates me from God, why doesn't it seperate much more evil things from God? Hmmm? Why is God so chummy with evil?

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Water, then water and dirt. They aren't mutually exclusive, just more.

what are you trying to say? You make no sense at all. You have claimed that earth is special and that water is somehow "univeral". You are wrong. I do love how you seem to be trying to backpedal from your own words. Not suprising.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

You know,I think I'm starting to develop a theory. I think that maybe all of these theists that come here are actually just one single theist. Some guy or girl in a basement at their mothers place with nothing better to do than develop twenty or thirty different accounts on a discussion board and constantly make vacuous comments without point or substance in an attempt to justify their existence. Either that or there was originally only one theist, but as the others get banned or leave the board they're attacked and absorbed by a great religious mass in an effort to create a protoform "super-theist", in the hopes of one day making an argument for god that held up under scrutiny for more than a few seconds.

I'm curious Markinark, exactly how do you reconcile original sin with having free will? If we're automatically condemned to hell then even if we are given an opportunity to choose to get out the simple fact that we are initially condemned through no fault or action of our own already takes the idea of free will out back behind the shed and violates it. For that matter any kind of punishment inflicted on us for doing things negates the idea of any free will. What you're referring to would better be described as 'circumstantial will'.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

Either that or there was originally only one theist, but as the others get banned or leave the board they're attacked and absorbed by a great religious mass in an effort to create a protoform "super-theist"

Kinda like the big Bug in Starship Troopers. Or better yet, like a slime mold.

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I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

You know,I think I'm starting to develop a theory. I think that maybe all of these theists that come here are actually just one single theist.

I think that we all hope this. We desperately want to think that people are intelligent, that there couldn't possibly be that many people who cling to a primitive, tribal superstition that glorifies ignorance. But unfortunately there really are.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

God is the creator of the known universeGod is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior. So before you whine about the 'sins of my fathers', understand you have a way to reverse this unfavorable outcome of an others actions. Similar to your Dad moving you to California from New York. When California falls off into the ocean as a result of an Earthquake, you will perish along with dear old dad unless you choose to move back to New York. If this occurs before you are old enough to be on your own, your life sucks. In Goddom, He makes an exception and you're good to go. This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

The old Testament offer was adherence to the 'laws'/'promises' of God to Abraham and his descendants who were believing and faithful to God.

The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

Did the great Flood actually kill everything on the Earth except Noah and his ark?

I have no freaking idea. To the writers, the answer would be a definite 'yes'. But in actuality, it really doesn't make much difference. The point of the story is evil will perish. It is an inevitable end to this physical realm.

The universe is destined to die. Black hole, supernova, collapsing universe; something will cause the end. Maybe surviving this is a +/-, yin/yang, light/dark kind of thing. If you choose a path that leaves you separate from God, you're not gonna like the place you wind up (the whole 'Hell' thing). I don't know how that works, but I don't want to find out either. I trust my FATHER to tell me how to avoid it just as I trusted my mother when she told me the stove was hot.

I search for eternal truth, not facts. I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit. It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value. Adherence to the 'truths' of the Bible helps me to be compassionate to my fellow man. And yes, you can live your life very much like this without God. You can be kind, compassionate and loving toward your fellow man. However, if God is God, you will be miming the words, but missing the big picture. How will God deal with that? I have no idea. But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

"Why do you doubt the existence of a [cultural superstitious belief based on incoherent attributes and arbitrarily assumed as not only existent but self evident outside of any intellectual or logical reason to do so]?"

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

God is the creator of the known universeGod is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

An arbitrary list of fantasy things you believe in without explanation, is this your idea of a coherent intellectual argument for anything?

How and why do you expect to be taken seriously with this stuff?

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When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

The only thing freewill necessitates is the ability to make choice without burden, otherwise it is a vapid apologetic excuse. ( ie pleading the problem away )

The only logical response is to point out that a perfect all powerful being could just as easily create perfect free will. If free will makes the obvious wrong choice, then it is in fact not perfect. IE We would have to have as much 'perfect' free will as god would possess and thus we would never make an imperfect choice with imperfect free will.

Do you have an effective answer to the logical problem?

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Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God.

God chose to expose mankind to evil and did not give mankind the perfect knowledge and understanding to know differently.

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This caused the separation of Man from God.

Irrelevant myth making, serves no logical justification.

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Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

Irrelevant myth making, serves no logical justification. God creates an imperfect paradise filled with imperfect beings, then punishes them for being imperfect.

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Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith

God sends himself to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy a loop hole in rules he himself created, in order to keep himself from punishing the imperfect beings he himself created in an imperfect environment and later punished for being imperfect.

This is exactly what you are describing, nothing of which can be defined or associated as 'love', 'empathy', 'compassion', or 'mercy'. Instead we have other more accurate terms to describe such behavior; narcissistic, egotistical, psychotic, vain, insane, etc. The god your myth describes is antagonistic to human desires, emotions, and existence; it is in everyway racist, sexist, bigoted, vengeful, and hateful.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:30:45 PM by Omen »

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior.

According to the qualities you ascribed your god in the beginning, this means that God created man knowing beforehand that man would screw up. If I created something and knew full well that there was a flaw in my design, I'd either change my design to ensure nobody got hurt or I'd reevaluate my standards for what is acceptable. I would not watch my creation go to pieces and then go, "Well, you screwed up, everyone head on over to Hell!"

Furthermore, I wouldn't send myself to sacrifice myself to appease myself for the rules I made. If I'm all powerful, I can simply say, "Hey guys, I screwed up there. You're all forgiven because I love you." But then, I guess I wouldn't be a perfect being if I made a mistake like that in the first place.

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This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

"Merciful" is not torturing people for eternity over your own flawed design.

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The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

Baseless assertion.

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The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

Did the great Flood actually kill everything on the Earth except Noah and his ark?

I have no freaking idea. To the writers, the answer would be a definite 'yes'. But in actuality, it really doesn't make much difference. The point of the story is evil will perish. It is an inevitable end to this physical realm.

If you have no freaking idea, how are you supposed to trust anything you read in there? How does anyone tell the difference between a parable and a literal story?

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I search for eternal truth, not facts.

So I understand what you're saying, can you give me an example of a something that is a fact but is not a truth? I don't think I'm following here.

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I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit.

And I want to believe candy rains from the sky. That doesn't mean it does.

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It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value.

Perhaps for you. Not so much for someone else.

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But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

Huh?! For a myriad of reasons! If I'm a loving, compassionate, kind, and thoughtful human being, all it would take is a reading of the Old Testament to realize what an asshole the Christian god is! I'd take one look at it and go, "This is not who I am!"

I don't believe in genocide. I don't believe in slavery. I don't believe in sending people to be tortured forever at the whim of some deity who set up my situation in the first place, and on and on and on.

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2 miles!"All men(humans )were demon possed and were planning to attack God. Just like if you talk back to your parents." - Failbag quote

God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

All choices involve consequences (burden).

Sacrifice: I view the sacrifice of himself (son) necessary to balance the human flaw and insure repatriation with God. It is God going the extra mile to get man back to what is acceptable in spite of man's inadequacies.

It is not God torturing, it is just reality. See Satan.

The point isn't to tell the difference between parable and a literal story. The point is to discern truth from the parable/story.

A fact is truth. Truth may be understood without a step-by-step factual guide.

Candy from the sky: You may. But even if it did rain from the sky. it doesn't really make a difference in the eternal scope of things, IMHO.

Again, death is not the end for God. I believe the Bible to say the suffering of eternity will outweigh the suffering of this world. Sometimes lessons are hard. The old Testament is full of suffering by ignoring God's direction. If I say you will die if you drive off a cliff and you do, I am honest and you chose badly.