Tuesday, June 5, 2007

Hypothetical question.

If you've been playing league for years, you may not be familiar with the "self rate" questionaire. Nowadays, if you enter the USTA league without a rating, you are allowed to self rate and are prompted by a series of player history questions to ascertain whether you've self rated too low.

Anyway, there is a situation which may arise that is somewhat interesting. There are a few players in Houston who have obviously lied on their self rating questionaires. Their playing history should mandate that they be rated higher than they are, based on the player guideline sheet

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that if a player lies and plays below the level he SHOULD be playing, all of his matches should be defaulted. A player who should be playing 5.5 plays 5.0...automatic disqualification. However, what if a player lies on his questionaire and gets a 4.5 rating when he should be rated 5.0 and then never plays at the 4.5 level, playing only 5.0? Should his dishonesty alone get him DQ'd and his team punished?

Clearly, the self rating system is where a vast majority of the out of level players are coming from. There are some players in Houston who may be protested. The above scenario may come into play and I'm not totally sure where I stand on the issue of a player misrepresenting his history but never playing below his "true" level. Thoughts/comments?

69 comments:

Maybe USTA should institute a system where self-raters are evaluated on a quarterly basis or after "N" matches and in the event that they get bumped during a quarterly review then they will not continue to be eligible at that level for a specific season.

It would incentivize the self-raters to be more honest to where if they do get DQ'ed then they do not anywhere to play.

If you take this season for example, it started in April and ends in June. That would make the dis-honest self raters ineligible for any post-season activity.

The first question I have is, does anyone check out the answers to verify if there is lying going on. I doubt it. The only way they know is if someone that knows the players background protests. I knew of one player last year that "conveniently" left off some pertinent information on their self rating questionnaire. It wasn't until sectionals in Dallas that someone knew this person and protested their self rating. This Houston team wouldn't have won without this person. The player was dq'd but TTA didn't default any of this players previous sectional matches. The team went on to Hawaii without that player. This was a crime in my opinion, not to disqualify all of that players individual matches. That team wouldn't have qualified to go to Hawaii.The only way to fix these problems is that there have to be people in HTA, TTA and USTA that aren't afraid to check and enforce the rules. Instead all these entities are only interested in collecting your league fees. It's MONEY MONEY MONEY that rules the roost.

The problem lies with the Dynamic NTRP as well. As long as the sand baggers keep matches close and lose every now and then, they can always evade the DQ. Also many players dont have histories you can easily figure out. They just have to win matches 7-5 6-4 or such to keep from getting flagged in the system. What happened with that one guy that got DQed was he was killing everybody which the more saavy captains and players know not to do.

I think an automatic DQ for a player found to have lied on the self rating is appropriate. That would eliminate the obvious tanking that goes on. Consider one of the teams from another city that won a national championship last year, they had a guy who was playing qualifying matches at futures tournaments. When this was pointed out to the USTA, they replied that the computer had not bumped this player due to the close matches he had during the season. That is just one example, there are others.

On the positive side. Having self rated players fill out a player profile and adding that "template" that says whether you can play 4.5 or not even if you played in college many many years ago, is a step in the right direction. My understanding is that Texas is the only section that uses the player profile. Is that correct? It should be nation wide if not.

There are a LOT of people out there that purposefully hide their past in self-ratings. Who really doesn't nowadays? I'm sure a great many people would be DQed instantly if anyone went strictly by the NTRP sheet. But who really does? I'm sure there are people out there with computer ratings that shouldn't be rated that. But they are. Ringers, unfortunately carry such premiums today that even Tennis magazine ran that article a while back.

In my mind, rating down initially but playing up and at level seems more reasonable than those that rate down and continue to tank/lose purposefully during the regular season and eventually garner a lower NTRP level. Nobody nowadays hesitates to say: "Well at sectionals you need some singles ringers to get to nationals." Why would essentially acknowledging that they can play up a level by playing that level regardless of what they rated initially be of such scrutiny while real ringers are not?

That is one weird hypothetical question. Except the entry seems to say that the hypothetical situation isn't hypothetical.

Lying is never good, of course. But I agree that a lot of people do it in league. Maybe this guy realized he shouldn't be playing whatever he rated at. Is he new? A lot of those "savvy captains" always try to tell newcomers that rating down is the way to go.

Anyway, why single this person/team out when it's rampant? At least he's playing where he "should" be.

The current rating system is not perfect, and I doubt that one can be created that a smart captain/team could not find a way to work around it. Any system is dependent on integrity and honesty, and given today's premium on winning, this is a line often crossed by players and captains.

In the past, visual ratings were also a joke because you can "play" to whatever level you wanted to be "rated." Maybe we should go back to having visual checks at city playoffs and sectionals again?

Maybe going forward all juniors and college players should automatically be rated during their competitive years, then this would remove their ability to self-rate at a lower level.

Back to the point of this post. If a player does not play his lower rating, then essentially he is playing at the correct level. Why should he be DQed? The checks should focus on players that are tanking, sandbagging or outright playing at the wrong lower level.

I agree with the earlier comment that lying then playing at the lower level is a much worse offense, and should be an automatic DQ.

I think I know what Hacker is talking about. People like Arun and Dustin Phillips played college tennis. They had to lie to get 4.5 ratings I guess. I heard a rumor about a protest too. Not sure if they should be 5.0 or 5.5.

Recent college players usually aren't very familiar with NTRP ratings and so are probably easy to recruit at lower levels like 4.5. If they then later realize thats too low of a level and play 5.0 or above that doesn't seem worthy of punishment. If the two players in 5.0 are being protested that sounds like a case of sour grapes more than anything else. The fact that this is brought up in the blog further implicates Red Benzon and Allen Teague in writing this. Since they can't get anybody to show up they now are trying to get people defaulted. Guys you can't win the 5.0 league get over it.

Whether the college players are familiar with the rules or not is irrelevant; when you go to self-rate, it asks you very specific questions and rates accordingly. The only way to get rated below 5.0 if you meet the criteria stipulated is to lie.

Being "untouchable" just because a person has eventually gotten a computer rating is kind of dumb. That doesn't necessarily make it any more right than someone playing lower and throwing matches. Besides, who cares about: "Hey guys I'm a DI college player but I got a 4.0 rating and didn't lose at all during league! Awesome huh?!?" I'm sure his college teammates would be proud.

Dustin and Arun are not playing 4.5, so why protest them? I've not seen Dustin, but Arun should NOT be rated a 5.5, besides, he's lost to several 5.0 players. If anyone, the guy that creamed Dustin and is going really deep in open category major zones should be 5.5. Maybe the guy on Teague that beat the guy that creamed Dustin as well.

Looking at tennislink, it seems like Teague and Lost Forest would have the most to benefit from a protest. Except, there would be no point in Lost Forest protesting Dustin. Shoot. That leaves Teague which seems like on paper with its 2000 opens level players/teaching pros should be winning. I guess it's mathematically possible to qualify every single one of the players on Teague, but I'm not motivated enough to check whether they have or not.

Definitely sounds like someone on that team is calling for a questionable default of two players after taking everything into account.

The funny thing is if its the Teague team that complains, it would be easy to get at least 2 or 3 of their self rated players Dq'ed as well. Benzons doubles partner for example. If someone had the three weeks or so it would take to google all his players that is.

All of these comments just prove the case the the definitions of what a 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 etc. player needs to be more clearly stated if possible. At least a 6.0 specifically states that this player is a nationally ranked division I college player. If they could get more specific for the other levels, all this subjective stuff would go away.

I have always had the attitude that all previous college players should at least be rated 5.0 or higher. Then if match play suggests they should be at a lower level, then the computer will do so. Instead, USTA has decided to dummy down the system with the self rating BS. In my opinion, I would be embarrassed to be playing at the 4.5 level if I played college tennis. I wonder how a legitimate 4.5 player would feel if he played down to the 3.5 level. Is he trying to prove some kind of stupid point to everyone that he can beat 3.5 players. Doesn't he have any competitive spirit. Think of what the other 3.5 opponents are thinking of him. Worse yet, his 4.5 friends would be embarrassed to be around him as well. I have been on the wrong side of a 6-0, 6-1 drubbing from someone who was at least a point level above my level. It couldn't have been any fun for my opponent and it certainly wasn't fun for me either. Everybody needs to be honest with themselves and play at the level they are competitive at. Anything else just proves that you are a wimp with no character. You people out there know who you are and you all should be ashamed and embarrassed to even step out on to the court. Just know that when we see you out there, we have no respect for you as a person.

The point here is that Arun Nanjappa self rated a 4.5 which means he falsified his self rating questionare as well as Dustin Phillips who is currently playing for Tyler Junior College. And yes Teagues team has players that could be disqualified as well. This will all happen within the next week guaranteed. No team is safe with self rated players and it will show in the standings very soon.

Maybe the players in Houston have been over-rated for so long that egos will not allow them to recognize their "true" playing level. This goes back to the syndrome where anyone who beats me should be playing at the next level.

In the end and for the long term, the computer will calculate true rating based on results. Yes, there will be anomalies due to players that tank and sandbag, but this is true in every sport for athletes with little self-respect.

One ringer does not make a winning team. But it makes for a lot of whinners.

Yes, Dunaev should not be a 5.0, he played for UTSA didn't he ? The funny thing is that he lost in 5.0 sectionals last year to that guy from Austin who played for Cal and barely beat the 4.5 guy from San Antonio (Broach.

The Open divisions technically fall under the age division (30's, 40's, 50's, etc.) so it is a slippery slope when you start trying to rate a player based on results in those categories. Having played the age divsions, the player levels can range from 4.0 all the way to 5.5 even at some of the older age groups. Having said that, does anyone really believe that the winner of the Men's open division at a major zone tournament in Texas is truly just a 5.0 player? I was fortunate enough to see both of the Men's open semi-finals and there was not a single one of those players I would rate a 5.0.

Of course Dunaev should be rated higher. Why the heck not? I'd put money on Broach being a college player somewhere. So what if he barely beat Broach? I can't see that guy really being rated 4.5 anyway. Wasn't he on that ridiculous "4.5" team from Texas that won nationals last year or whenever that was? Interesting that they're complaining about a couple of guys rated 4.5 playing at 5.0.

It's for this reason that each respective level is seeded with so many players that shouldn't be playing at that level.

If everyone rated slightly higher, there would be more stuff going on at 5.0, more than one team at 5.5, and more than one team at Opens.

Arun Nanjappa All American(Singles) from Washington University which was a Top Ranked School and He was a top ranked Player individually as well.Lets all just self rate 4.5 and do away with 5.0. The fact is the questions asked during self rating would at least put him a 5.5 so should he get by by lying in the questionaire?? What about Dustin Phillips current player for Tyler Junior College should he be eligible.

I think you missed my point about Broach and Max. Max is not a 5.0 player, he's easily a 5.5. He barely beat Broach, which means that last year Broach was pretty close to 5.5. also....The guy (Melmed) who beat Max at Sectionals is also a 5.5, but at least he got bumped up.

I believe that there is no Standout Player in the 4.5's this year but with this being said that's why Houston will be a little weaker this Year. Green's Team went to Nationals in 2005 and came Dead Last and they are trying to repeat but just do not have the Depth this year even with there new additions. In 5.0 League its weird to see that Lost Forest is at the Bottom especially since they have dominated the 5.0 League the Last 5 years. Until this year Teagues team didn't even win a Duel match the last 5 Years. I see a Big Difference in the Top 5.0's and Top 4.5's. Its ashame that in order to compete you have to Beat the system but nothing will ever change, Someone will always want to win at all costs.

The Teague team also has Alim Mambetov who easily beat Dustin Phillips and was nationally ranked. Here is some information on the internet:

"UIS Men's Tennis Alim Mambetov..of the men's tennis team have bounced into the national spotlight this week with rankings that were released March 17, 2005. Alim Mambetov is ranked #36 by Intercollegiate Tennis Association (ITA)/National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA) in singles and holds an 11-2 record this season. Mambetov and doubles partners Esteban Czwan are ranked #20 in doubles by the ITA/NAIA and hold a 9-4 record this season."

...and he lost to another player on Teague's team at the Gallery Furniture Open - Varun Pandit.

BTW, Arun attended Washington University in St. Louis; a division 3 school. A fact conveniently left out by the previous poster to mislead the other readers.

But by the sound of it the protests are being or have been filed and we will find out the results very soon.

Not sure what is the big deal about Nanjappa. He is playing 5.0 not 4.5. His wins in 5.0 will get him bumped to 5.0 when the midseason ratings come out so whats the harm done? Both Allen Teague teams have far worse offenders.

DIII tennis should not put you at 5.5. There is a huge difference between DI, DII and DIII which technically is at the bottom of the heap.

Obviously the people on Teague's team complaining don't realize this. I've played against good DIII players as well as average DI players. There is a big difference.

I don't think they have a case with Nanjappa playing 5.0 where he belongs regardless of his rating. They're just upset apparently. Ask any college coach whether there's a difference between say Rice or even SMU and Washington St. Louis. Just watch the DI coaches turn their nose up at you for even hinting.

I guess everyone is missing the point here. For those of you trying to justify that Arun Nanjappa and Dustin Phillips are legal in the 5.0 League does that still allow them to lie on there self rating questionaire? According to the Grid on this topic it says any Top Ranked D1 D2 and D3 school or player should be self rated a 5.5. If they self rated a 5.0 maybe no one would protest them. The fact of the matter is whoever self rated them tried to undermine the system and sneak them in. Why not answer the questions Honestly then see what the rating spits out. The protest is not questioning him being out of level but its protesting he lied on the self rating questionaire. Did they? We all know the answer to that.

This is pretty lame even for Allen Teague and Red Benzon. If they get anyone disqualified, I say that they have to have all their players researched and checked for ratings accuracy. They for sure have some recent D1 players self rated at 5.0 and the 4.5 team is always full of ringers.

Well, if Arun is under 30 and was a top ranked D3 player I'm afraid the protest is a slam dunk. It would have been interesting to see if the fact that he lied would have been enough grounds for disqualification. I suspect not. Tosha Smith might be able to answer that for us.

So if a team with nine 5.0 and nine 4.5 players cannot beat a team with three 5.0 and six 4.5 players (two of them are ex-4.0, as pointed out by htown hacker), then they resort to whining and protesting. Kudos on earning the tennis playing community's "respect" and uphold the spirit of sportsmanship (sarcasm off).

Teague's 5.0 team has much more questionable 5.0 players than Arun. I think hes a strong but legit 5.0. He lost to Nico Heidari in straight sets this year. He also lost in straights at the Copperfield tournament Very poor sportsmanship from Allen Teague. I hope he has some players challenged.

I don't think that's fair to say it's poor sportsmanship by Allen. And no, I am NOT Allen or Red or affilliated with either of their teams.

I truly think Arun IS a 5.0 player, and not a 5.5 player. But if he WAS a top ranked college player and is in his twenties, the grid says he must self rate 5.5.

If Allen or Red protested, I don't think that makes it poor sportsmanship. Perhaps the timing was a bit slimy, but that's how it works sometimes. If someone finds out Grant Murphy was a top 150 junior in Australia, they could wait 'til the last minute to protest so as to inflict the most damage. It's slimy, but that's the way it's often done.

Yes Allen Teague is using poor sportsmanship and he is a hypocrite. He has had some of his 5.0 players lie on their self ratings questionaires that have much more recent and extensive college tennis histories than Arun or Dustin Phillips. He is just upset that he is losing the league. Varun Pandit, Alim Mambetov and John Guerrero are all incorrectly self rated 5.0s by looking at their histories. There are probably more as well on his team. Craig Bobo also bogus self rated 4.5 as well as others on that 4.5 team. Its easy to see the pattern here. Allen teague is win at all costs.

Mambetov and Bobo are not self rated, however. Bobo played last season with Ssshhhwing. He played legitimately, losing two singles matches and fighting off match points against Chang and Chanthanalay in doubles with Rothe. Mambetov has one of those ridiculous ratings that were generated via mixed doubles.

With all that being said the Best Players on Teagues team are Laurence Sombito,Nick Frank,Alim Mambetov and they are all computer rated 5.0's. There will be disqualifications in 5.0 and Nanjappa and Dustin Phillips are under protest so if you want to disqualify some of Team Teagues members than please do so because it will make things better for the League. Like I said again you cannot tell me that Nanjappa and Phillips and Guererro answered correctly on the Self Rating Questionaires. The first question they ask is if you've ever played any college tennis. Go Figure. It's not even about winning anymore its about fair play in the rating system. If you want to disqualify any team members then Please do so.

Every team captain in 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 is guilty of stacking their team and providing "ringers" to their line ups. Some more than others I have to admit!!!! And just like like one of the last postings, the ones complaining are the most guilty. Is there prize money involved in Houston League Tennis? If so, let me know. I will stop eating BonBons and drinking beer and participate. GET OVER IT!!!!

Lets try and Get Alim Mambetov and Nick Frank Dqed. At the same time when Nanjappas team falls to last place for self rating wrong. Hmmm Problem is Nick Frank is already computer rated as well as Alim Mambetov but Nanjappa and Cuesta are not so that makes them protestable.

Allen Teague - Well I guess it’s about time I probably throw my thoughts into all of this. Just in case anyone is confused this is the first and only time that I have commented on this blogg.

Let me start by saying I think the blogg is a great thing and most everyone seems to enjoy it including myself despite the disparaging remarks against me.

I have played this league for more years than most any of you and if asked absolutely I want to win but have never ever protested a player and never will. If someone wants to add a player that may be out of level that is up to them. In recent years my league play has been more on a competitive but relaxed effort and that has not changed. I have remained absent all this mess with players and protesters and certainly would appreciate that before you choose to insult me in this blogg that you one have the guts to call me and confirm that I created the violation and secondly and most importantly if feel so inclined to insult me than be man enough to post your name and not hide behind "anonymous"! Most people who know me well enough, know that most of these things said about me are not me at all.

A problem exists with the system and we all know it. The short answer is that it is a self correcting solution along with all of ourselves policing each other. The organization does not have the resources to check on everyone so they leave it to us to check ourselves and each other. We just have to know it and be prepared to suffer the consequences should there be any. Ultimately it is the captains responsibility to ensure that players are legal in every aspect if they are planning to play them. You can't cry about it when someone calls a player out and that player is found to be playing out of level. As for player rosters, the way I see it you can add freak'in Roger Federer if you want but no violation occurs until he plays a match so quit crying about who is on someones roster until they play a freak'in match.

For the record Allen, I never really thought you were the one behind the questionable protesting. I thought you were a good guy when we met, albeit briefly at HRC. I figured you were the kind of guy that just played fair, played hard and played to win--without the protests if you lost. That's what respectable captains do.

You know, and I know everything considered, that we didn't "cheat" by having Arun on the team at all regardless of his rating or past history. It's not like I picked up the Barker brothers, signed them onto my team and hoped nobody would notice. He's a legitimate player at the 5.0 level and everyone knows it. I hope folks don't think I told my whole team to rate down so I could lull all the 5.0 teams into a false sense of complacency, thereby winning by psychological warfare... Although that Pedro guy had me going at the beginning of the season when I saw his 3 NTRP rating.

It seems more like to me and everyone else, that Red is behind this. I'm sure he probably added many of those "computer rated and hence untouchable" guys to your squad. I didn't think you would wholeheartedly back Red while he protested so perhaps he's going through it by himself. I certainly know he's had more than enough practice doing it.

If he wants to lodge a protest just because he lost the lineup he put together to a bunch of crappy players minus Roger Arun Federer, then that's fine. You know he encouraged me to play 4.0 again this year through appealing? We'll just try again next year. He's probably not making many friends or gaining much respect while protesting, but if that's what he needs to gain notoriety, you'd be doing right to make sure he left you out of it.

Incidentally, I just missed a call from the USTA Texas Section. I wonder what that's for?

Red has no problem recruiting ringers and getting players to lie on self ratings. The problem is if other teams in his division do it. Makes sense to me. Funny how he had to play with a recent D1 player to get two of his 5.0 wins.

Check this out. Red/Allen you should be ashamed. The self ratings guidelines so helpfully provided by blogger man would say this guy is not 5.0. http://www.collegetennisonline.com/view/results.asp?seasonId=0&pType=D&prtcpId=17624