This reminds of political discussion where instead of defending one's view, a politician (apparently because there is no good defense) just moves onto attack mode on other alternatives, preferrably strawman alternatives that are easy to attack.

I did defend my point, when I postulated my hypothesis. Richard Stevens brought the concern that why out of the sudden would HG in Western Europe overpower farmers after being in the shadows for millennia, I argued that why should we expect HG in Western Europe to be any different from those in the Steppes. If hypothesis B assumes that HG learned x technology from farmers, and one is pushing for hypothesis B, it is a bit of a double standard to question hypothesis A based on the exact same assumption that was made on hypothesis B, I was simply pointing it out. If you think that is a strawman, then I think your sidetracking is an Ad Hominem. Easy as that.

I don't know if R1b-L23xL51 came from the Steppes. I think legitimate cases can be made in the context of cultural movements that R1b-L23 lineages expanded westward from either the Steppes, SE Europe, Anatolia or even the Near East. I don't know what is most likely.

Yes, and that doesn’t invalidate that there could have been descendants of R1b-L150 living in Western Europe, when the good ol’ R1b-L23(xL51) folks decided to head West from the Steppes and bring PIE with them.

Your split (east/west) personality for L23 scenario is about to get quite difficult. I think you will have to place the L23+ L150- MRCA in Central Europe for him to send children both to the Atlantic and Caucasus in very quick fashion at a time when transportation was worse than it was post Neolithic.

Have you been reading what I have been saying? Pre-Neolithic R1b-L23 (xL150) was widespread in Europe, when the G2a folks arrive, they drew a hole in the middle of the R1b-L23(xL150) folks, some of them ran for the Steppes, some were cornered in the fringes of Western Europe. Where was R1b-L150 born you might ask, well R1b-L150 was born likely a cave in Western Europe.

Why do you think that in terms of intra-clade G2a(11 kya per Marko.H) gets about the same age as I2a(12 kya per Marko.H)?

Nothing new in this R1 study from Mari Järve. The author confirms the Myres and Underhill papers about R1b and R1a in Europe. They spread in Europe during neolithic with the use of the Zhivotovsky mutation rate:

Quote from: Mari Järve

Novel SNP markers M458 and M412 define major European-specific subclades, likely associated with Neolithic expansions, in Y chromosome haplogroups R1a and R1b, respectively, providing a refined picture of the phylogeographic distribution of these two haplogroups that comprise about half of the European male gene pool.

The author notices that the main shortcoming of the ‘evolutionary’ rate is that it tends to overestimate dates. So the spread of R1a and R1b in Europe could be later than neolithic times.The interesting point is about Caucasus:

Quote from: Mari Järve

The genetic discontinuity between the North Caucasus and the East European Plain, contrasting with continuity through Anatolia and the Balkans, suggests that the movement of people from the Near/Middle East to Europe took place around the western flank of the Black Sea and not through the Caucasus.

Your split (east/west) personality for L23 scenario is about to get quite difficult. I think you will have to place the L23+ L150- MRCA in Central Europe for him to send children both to the Atlantic and Caucasus in very quick fashion at a time when transportation was worse than it was post Neolithic.

Have you been reading what I have been saying? Pre-Neolithic R1b-L23 (xL150) was widespread in Europe, when the G2a folks arrive, they drew a hole in the middle of the R1b-L23(xL150) folks, some of them ran for the Steppes, some were cornered in the fringes of Western Europe. Where was R1b-L150 born you might ask, well R1b-L150 was born likely a cave in Western Europe.

I think I understand what you are saying, but still R1b-L23 has a MRCA - a single man, a real person. Where and when was he? Some how he left a close-in descendent (L150+) to the west while leaving L150- all over and primarily to the east. When do you think L150 was born in his cave in Western Europe? When and where did the L23 MRCA come about?

My opinion is there wasn't much time for L23 L150- to spread out, but that depends on where you think L23 came from and when. This is the difficulty I have with your hypothesis.

Your split (east/west) personality for L23 scenario is about to get quite difficult. I think you will have to place the L23+ L150- MRCA in Central Europe for him to send children both to the Atlantic and Caucasus in very quick fashion at a time when transportation was worse than it was post Neolithic.

I guess you are saying L150+ is of Western European origin. Where is L23+ from? Since we are both using Marko's intraclade dating which is really a time of early expansion estimate, he has L23 as 5700 ybp or 3700 BC. Around 3700 BC, where do you think L23's MRCA, who was L150- (but L150's ancestor), was?

Marko has the intraclade for L150 as of about the same time as L23.... both 3700 BC. Either the L150's MRCA was geographically very close to L23's, or the L23 pre-L150 lineage moved very quickly to get to West Europe and/or L23's non-L150 lineages moved very quickly to get to Anatolia and the Caucasus.

I think I understand what you are saying, but still R1b-L23 has a MRCA - a single man, a real person. Where and when was he? Some how he left a close-in descendent (L150+) to the west while leaving L150- all over and primarily to the east. When do you think L150 was born in his cave in Western Europe? When and where did the L23 MRCA come about?My opinion is there wasn't much time for L23 L150- to spread out, but that depends on where you think L23 came from and when. This is the difficulty I have with your hypothesis.

Ok R1b-L23 MRCA was likely born somewhere in the Northern Balkans, when pre-Neolithic, possibly 15-18 kya. So R1b-L23 in its R1b-L23(xL150) form was forced to take refuge in Western Europe, and in the Steppes by the incoming farmers. The R1b-L23 in Western Europe developed into R1b-L150+, whereas the other one, likely carries a SNP yet to be discovered. What is more, a small minority of the R1b-L23(xL150) present in Western Europe is really old, as in pre-Neolithic old, I think that once the SNP for R1b-L150 is discovered, we shall see the presence of people that do not belong to that SNP or L150 in Western Europe.

I guess you are saying L150+ is of Western European origin. Where is L23+ from? Since we are both using Marko's intraclade dating which is really a time of early expansion estimate, he has L23 as 5700 ybp or 3700 BC. Around 3700 BC, where do you think L23's MRCA, who was L150- (but L150's ancestor), was?Marko has the intraclade for L150 as of about the same time as L23.... both 3700 BC. Either the L150's MRCA was geographically very close to L23's, or the L23 pre-L150 lineage moved very quickly to get to West Europe and/or L23's non-L150 lineages moved very quickly to get to Anatolia and the Caucasus.

Well I think the intraclade of R1b-L23 is greatly underestimated by the fact that R1b-L23 suffered a great loss during the onset of the Neolithic. But I can show you haplotypes of R1b-L23(xL150) that share a TMRCA that is pre-Neolithic. In fact I can show you a Western European R1b-L23(xL150) that shares a TMRCA with all West Asian R1b-L23(xL150) that is pre-Neolithic.

This reminds of political discussion where instead of defending one's view, a politician (apparently because there is no good defense) just moves onto attack mode on other alternatives, preferrably strawman alternatives that are easy to attack.

I did defend my point, when I postulated my hypothesis. Richard Stevens brought the concern that why out of the sudden would HG in Western Europe overpower farmers after being in the shadows for millennia, I argued that why should we expect HG in Western Europe to be any different from those in the Steppes. If hypothesis B assumes that HG learned x technology from farmers, and one is pushing for hypothesis B, it is a bit of a double standard to question hypothesis A based on the exact same assumption that was made on hypothesis B, I was simply pointing it out. If you think that is a strawman, then I think your sidetracking is an Ad Hominem. Easy as that.

I don't know if R1b-L23xL51 came from the Steppes. I think legitimate cases can be made in the context of cultural movements that R1b-L23 lineages expanded westward from either the Steppes, SE Europe, Anatolia or even the Near East. I don't know what is most likely.

Yes, and that doesn’t invalidate that there could have been descendants of R1b-L150 living in Western Europe, when the good ol’ R1b-L23(xL51) folks decided to head West from the Steppes and bring PIE with them.

Your split (east/west) personality for L23 scenario is about to get quite difficult. I think you will have to place the L23+ L150- MRCA in Central Europe for him to send children both to the Atlantic and Caucasus in very quick fashion at a time when transportation was worse than it was post Neolithic.

Have you been reading what I have been saying? Pre-Neolithic R1b-L23 (xL150) was widespread in Europe, when the G2a folks arrive, they drew a hole in the middle of the R1b-L23(xL150) folks, some of them ran for the Steppes, some were cornered in the fringes of Western Europe. Where was R1b-L150 born you might ask, well R1b-L150 was born likely a cave in Western Europe.

Why do you think that in terms of intra-clade G2a(11 kya per Marko.H) gets about the same age as I2a(12 kya per Marko.H)?

Where is all the L23 in Central Asia then if the steepe was filled with it and PIE originates with it? L23 was maybe dominant in portions of the steepe. It wasn't widespread and certainly didn't originate there imo.

Where is all the L23 in Central Asia then if the steepe was filled with it and PIE originates with it? L23 was maybe dominant in portions of the steepe. It wasn't widespread and certainly didn't originate there imo.

I think L23 is of European origin. The Steppe probably was filled with R1b-M73 people, and in between the R1b-L23 in the Balkans, there were likely R1a that got pushed farther East as the G2a folks started entering the European picture. So R1b-L23 was likely in the Western side of the Steppe, whereas R1a was in the Eastern, but not as Eastern as R1b-M73. However, that doesn't explain why Bashkirs do not have R1a, unless their R1a was wiped out by the recent arrival of R1b-L23(xL150) folks from the Caucasus.

Where is all the L23 in Central Asia then if the steepe was filled with it and PIE originates with it? L23 was maybe dominant in portions of the steepe. It wasn't widespread and certainly didn't originate there imo.

Sigh. This is an R1b forum, so nobody is going to add "and R1a also" every single time they talk about R1b and PIE. It is understood by all that use this forum that R1a is the other half of the PIE picture and it goes without saying because it doesn't need to be said. Everyone here knows it because they've all been posting on this R1b forum and other R1b forums for years. Until you understand that, you are only frustrating yourself.

Where is all the L23 in Central Asia then if the steepe was filled with it and PIE originates with it? L23 was maybe dominant in portions of the steepe. It wasn't widespread and certainly didn't originate there imo.

I think L23 is of European origin. The Steppe probably was filled with R1b-M73 people, and in between the R1b-L23 in the Balkans, there were likely R1a that got pushed farther East as the G2a folks started entering the European picture. So R1b-L23 was likely in the Western side of the Steppe, whereas R1a was in the Eastern, but not as Eastern as R1b-M73. However, that doesn't explain why Bashkirs do not have R1a, unless their R1a was wiped out by the recent arrival of R1b-L23(xL150) folks from the Caucasus.

Are you actually suggesting L23 is European? Don't most people accept L23 as West Asian. Must be why Assyrians have high R1b frequencies but are 0% Northern European.

I disagree with m73 being found in the steepe. The majority of M73 is among Turkic speakers and has increased in frequency due to bottlenecks. It is a recent phenomenon. If M73 was in the steepe at such an early date we would find it alongside R1a in places like Iran and Afghanistan.

Are you actually suggesting L23 is European? Don't most people accept L23 as West Asian. Must be why Assyrians have high R1b frequencies but are 0% Northern European.

R1b-L23, could be European or from the Steppe, the main point is that it was widespread in Europe prior to the arrival of the Neolithic. What is the frequency of R1b in Assyrians? Mind you, that Sardinians have 15% R1b-M269 and show 0% Northern European too.

I disagree with m73 being found in the steepe. The majority of M73 is among Turkic speakers and has increased in frequency due to bottlenecks. It is a recent phenomenon. If M73 was in the steepe at such an early date we would find it alongside R1a in places like Iran and Afghanistan.

Baskhir L23 is recent. They do have R1a btw of the z93+ variety.

If R1b-M73 was in the Steppes circa 10000 ybp, it could have easily been pushed Eastwards towards Central Asia. The duo of R1a and R1b-L23(xL150) did not start causing trouble until much later.

R1b-L23, could be European or from the Steppe, the main point is that it was widespread in Europe prior to the arrival of the Neolithic. What is the frequency of R1b in Assyrians? Mind you, that Sardinians have 15% R1b-M269 and show 0% Northern European too.

Are you actually suggesting L23 is European? Don't most people accept L23 as West Asian. Must be why Assyrians have high R1b frequencies but are 0% Northern European.

R1b-L23, could be European or from the Steppe, the main point is that it was widespread in Europe prior to the arrival of the Neolithic. What is the frequency of R1b in Assyrians? Mind you, that Sardinians have 15% R1b-M269 and show 0% Northern European too.

I disagree with m73 being found in the steepe. The majority of M73 is among Turkic speakers and has increased in frequency due to bottlenecks. It is a recent phenomenon. If M73 was in the steepe at such an early date we would find it alongside R1a in places like Iran and Afghanistan.

Baskhir L23 is recent. They do have R1a btw of the z93+ variety.

If R1b-M73 was in the Steppes circa 10000 ybp, it could have easily been pushed Eastwards towards Central Asia. The duo of R1a and R1b-L23(xL150) did not start causing trouble until much later.

Something along the lines of 20-30%. That another R1b rich population doesn't have a Northern Euro component only adds to the argument R1b-L23 is not European.

If M73 was in the steepe it wouldn't show a correlation to Turkic speakers only.

Something along the lines of 20-30%. That another R1b rich population doesn't have a Northern Euro component only adds to the argument R1b-L23 is not European.

If M73 was in the steepe it wouldn't show a correlation to Turkic speakers only.

Since when is Northern Euro the only European component, you do know that Finns and Lithuanians are the ones that have peak in Northern European, both populations are greatly lacking in R1b-L23. So Northern Euro isn't likely linked with some clades of R1b-L23, whereas it might be linked to some subclades of R1b-L23(i.e. R1b-U106).

R1b-M73 shows correlation with Turkic speakers for the same reason R1b-U106 shows a correlation with the Germanic expansions. The Turkic expansion was likely the haul for the expansion of R1b-M73.

PS: Sardinians are rarely what one would call R1b rich, think of Ireland if you want to go R1b rich, and they do show Northern European.

I think I understand what you are saying, but still R1b-L23 has a MRCA - a single man, a real person. Where and when was he? Some how he left a close-in descendent (L150+) to the west while leaving L150- all over and primarily to the east. When do you think L150 was born in his cave in Western Europe? When and where did the L23 MRCA come about?My opinion is there wasn't much time for L23 L150- to spread out, but that depends on where you think L23 came from and when. This is the difficulty I have with your hypothesis.

Ok R1b-L23 MRCA was likely born somewhere in the Northern Balkans, when pre-Neolithic, possibly 15-18 kya. So R1b-L23 in its R1b-L23(xL150) form was forced to take refuge in Western Europe, and in the Steppes by the incoming farmers. The R1b-L23 in Western Europe developed into R1b-L150+, whereas the other one, likely carries a SNP yet to be discovered. What is more, a small minority of the R1b-L23(xL150) present in Western Europe is really old, as in pre-Neolithic old, I think that once the SNP for R1b-L150 is discovered, we shall see the presence of people that do not belong to that SNP or L150 in Western Europe.

Thank you. I think it is possible. I'll have to think about it a bit. I'll also try to overlay your thoughts on linguistics connections, which you posted early.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I assume you think the TMRCA for R1a and R1b is much greater than 18,000 ybp, correct? so that L23 can be less than 18,000 ybp?

I guess you are saying L150+ is of Western European origin. Where is L23+ from? Since we are both using Marko's intraclade dating which is really a time of early expansion estimate, he has L23 as 5700 ybp or 3700 BC. Around 3700 BC, where do you think L23's MRCA, who was L150- (but L150's ancestor), was?Marko has the intraclade for L150 as of about the same time as L23.... both 3700 BC. Either the L150's MRCA was geographically very close to L23's, or the L23 pre-L150 lineage moved very quickly to get to West Europe and/or L23's non-L150 lineages moved very quickly to get to Anatolia and the Caucasus.

Well I think the intraclade of R1b-L23 is greatly underestimated by the fact that R1b-L23 suffered a great loss during the onset of the Neolithic. But I can show you haplotypes of R1b-L23(xL150) that share a TMRCA that is pre-Neolithic. In fact I can show you a Western European R1b-L23(xL150) that shares a TMRCA with all West Asian R1b-L23(xL150) that is pre-Neolithic.

I hope it is a number of haplotypes and not just anecdotal but please post whatever you've got. Kit #s and Ysearch IDs if available.

Why do you think that in terms of intra-clade G2a(11 kya per Marko.H) gets about the same age as I2a(12 kya per Marko.H)?

I don't have any particular hypothesis or concern about it, but I guess you think I should. What's important about this?

Well I2a and G2a were both found in Treilles, France circa 3000 BC. Here is another “coincidence” intra-clade age of R1b-L150(5700 ybp per Marko.H), intra-clade age of I1(5000 ybp per Marko.H).

I realize I don't know much about some of these other haplogroups so I apologize, but could you elaborate on the coincidence of the intraclade ages. At first glance it makes sense to me that many of the most commonly shared SNPs at the lower levels of the Y DNA descendancy tree were most prolific in Neolithic or post-Neolithic times. I know I1 is thought as having a Nordic expansion point. I think I2a is up in the air and spread out a bit. I don't know about G2a.

Something along the lines of 20-30%. That another R1b rich population doesn't have a Northern Euro component only adds to the argument R1b-L23 is not European.

If M73 was in the steepe it wouldn't show a correlation to Turkic speakers only.

Since when is Northern Euro the only European component, you do know that Finns and Lithuanians are the ones that have peak in Northern European, both populations are greatly lacking in R1b-L23. So Northern Euro isn't likely linked with R1b-L23.

All mainland Europeans have the Northern Euro component. If L23 is of European origin then it occurred in a people with this component. Therefore it should be accompanied by this component in West Asian populations with L23. And you are correct no link between Northern Euro and L23. And Europe and the origins of L23 for that matter.

Something along the lines of 20-30%. That another R1b rich population doesn't have a Northern Euro component only adds to the argument R1b-L23 is not European.

If M73 was in the steepe it wouldn't show a correlation to Turkic speakers only.

Since when is Northern Euro the only European component, you do know that Finns and Lithuanians are the ones that have peak in Northern European, both populations are greatly lacking in R1b-L23. So Northern Euro isn't likely linked with some clades of R1b-L23, whereas it might be linked to some subclades of R1b-L23(i.e. R1b-U106).

R1b-M73 shows correlation with Turkic speakers for the same reason R1b-U106 shows a correlation with the Germanic expansions. The Turkic expansion was likely the haul for the expansion of R1b-M73.

PS: Sardinians are rarely what one would call R1b rich, think of Ireland if you want to go R1b rich, and they do show Northern European.

If it M73 was present in the steepe it should have expanded with Indo-Iranians way before the Turkic expansion which came much later. Does it make sense for a lineage west of Indo-Iranians to expand with a later population east of Indo-Iranians?

All mainland Europeans have the Northern Euro component. If L23 is of European origin then it occurred in a people with this component. Therefore it should be accompanied by this component in West Asian populations with L23. And you are correct no link between Northern Euro and L23. And Europe and the origins of L23 for that matter.

You do know that the Northern European component is an ADMIXTURE component, so that says nothing about Europe or the origins of L23.

If it M73 was present in the steepe it should have expanded with Indo-Iranians way before the Turkic expansion which came much later. Does it make sense for a lineage west of Indo-Iranians to expand with a later population east of Indo-Iranians?

Dude you are killing me!!! :-) If R1b-M73, was in the Steppe 10000 ybp, and was displaced towards Central Asia 8000 ybp by R1a folks, there is no reason why it should have expanded with the Indo-Iranians, when it wasn't in the Steppe when the expansion took place.

All mainland Europeans have the Northern Euro component. If L23 is of European origin then it occurred in a people with this component. Therefore it should be accompanied by this component in West Asian populations with L23. And you are correct no link between Northern Euro and L23. And Europe and the origins of L23 for that matter.

You do know that the Northern European component is an ADMIXTURE component, so that says nothing about Europe or the origins of L23.

Doesn't change the fact if R1b-L23 occurred in a European population West Asian populations would have this component. They don't.

If it M73 was present in the steepe it should have expanded with Indo-Iranians way before the Turkic expansion which came much later. Does it make sense for a lineage west of Indo-Iranians to expand with a later population east of Indo-Iranians?

Dude you are killing me!!! :-) If R1b-M73, was in the Steppe 10000 ybp, and was displaced towards Central Asia 8000 ybp by R1a folks, there is no reason why it should have expanded with the Indo-Iranians, when it wasn't in the Steppe when the expansion took place.

This would suggest a very ancient dispersal of M73 into Central Asia and M73 being in Central Asia before the Indo-Iranian expansion. If that was the case M73 wouldn't correlate with Turkic languages whose expansion is quite recent. It would be just as significant in Central Asian Iranian speakers. that isn't the case.

This would suggest a very ancient dispersal of M73 into Central Asia and M73 being in Central Asia before the Indo-Iranian expansion. If that was the case M73 wouldn't correlate with Turkic languages whose expansion is quite recent. It would be just as significant in Central Asian Iranian speakers. that isn't the case.

Well, let's see if R1b-M73 was in the region from where the Turkic expansion took place, why wouldn't it correlate with Turkic languages.