Great response, but if there's so much intolerance to the EU idea, why didn't political leaders work out solutions to reform it? I guess it's a rhetorical question, political figures across the pond here are useless as well.

Click to expand...

They did. Cameron re-negotiated a load of EU treaties way back in February.

I think there is a chance David Cameron is playing a long and risky game here. Parliment could veto the vote and if they do DC could swoop in to 'rescue' the UK. Wouldnt surprise me if his motive from the start was to get rid of Boris and Gove without him actually sacking them (and admitting he was wrong to put them in their positions in the first place).

A conspiracy theory I know but I wouldnt be surprised if thats how it played out.

In whose best interests is that? Not enabling easy trade with 70,000,000 of the wealthiest people in the world?!

This is all gesturing because the rest of Europe fears that Brexit will lead to more referenda and a mass exodus of the EU.

Click to expand...

Actually, at the moment, most of the EU seems to be praying that you don't just cancel all the stuff. The EU will be MUCH stronger without the UK, the governments are in a hurry because, we can't expel the UK so our hands were tied. Now that you made the mistake, yes, they're going to capitalise on this unique opportunity to get rid of a dead weight. The UK aren't partners any longer. They're competitors, and will be treated as such.
You do realise that lots of people have been dreamng of a UK-free EU for thirty+ years ?

Actually, at the moment, most of the EU seems to be praying that you don't just cancel all the stuff. The EU will be MUCH stronger without the UK, the governments are in a hurry because, we can't expel the UK so our hands were tied. Now that you made the mistake, yes, they're going to capitalise on this unique opportunity to get rid of a dead weight. The UK aren't partners any longer. They're competitors, and will be treated as such.
You do realise that lots of people have been dreamng of a UK-free EU for thirty+ years ?

Click to expand...

Dead weight? We're one of only about 6 net contributors in the whole Union, what on earth about that tells you the UK is dead weight?

Apart from leaders puffing out their chests so that their own nations don't call for referenda, what are you basing any of this on?

On a personal note, this immense financial uncertainty comes at the worst possible time for me as I prepare to move out of my parents' house and into London, finish my degree and hopefully forge a career in music. I have no idea what's going on any more - what negative repercussions there will be on my industry, or on a more basic level whether I'll even be able to afford to keep myself afloat if the economy keeps weakening. I've already heard that rent is set to go up, which is precisely what I definitely did not want to hear. Especially in London, where it's bad enough already.

Whatever. Just personal concerns, hardly a matter of national importance but hey, I'm sure I'm not the only person in this situation who is suddenly sh*tting a brick.

Click to expand...

I worry a lot of the talk about rents etc going up is scaremongering. If our economy recedes, as it very likely will for a while, there's no way in hell interest rates go up, money is worth less therefore you don't have to pay as much for it.

If interest rates stay low, mortgage rates shouldn't change.

If there's uncertainty in our economy, house prizes faulter, foreign investment stops and house prices stop screaming up at crazy rates. In fact, if there's that much uncertainty, we could see an influx of landlords and foreign investors selling property around the next few months, and a significant increase in supply and decrease in demand means lower house prices.

As long as the government keeps building, which they almost certainly will, and unless you're a homeowner relying on a big profit to sell (just remortgaged for example) you're in a very good position housewise.

Speculation, of course, but I feel safe in a lot of those assumptions.

Dead weight? We're one of only about 6 net contributors in the whole Union, what on earth about that tells you the UK is dead weight?

Click to expand...

Mainly, the UK has been one of the main opponents to the construction of Europe, vetoing this and that legislation when it was unfavorable to banks and large companies.
Also note that you contribute much less than you should thanks to special arrangements that I have no clue why they were given to you in the first place. the view of UK in mainland europe is, basically, "the whining spoiled brat who plays alone", "The lapdogs of America" etc: a handicap to EU construction, not an asset. You do realise your country is extremely unpopular right ? Arrogant governments for decades didn't help.

Mainly, the UK has been one of the main opponents to the construction of Europe, vetoing this and that legislation when it was unfavorable to banks and large companies.
Also note that you contribute much less than you should thanks to special arrangements that I have no clue why they were given to you in the first place. the view of UK in mainland europe is, basically, "the whining spoiled brat who plays alone", "The lapdogs of America" etc: a handicap to EU construction, not an asset. You do realise your country is extremely unpopular right ? Arrogant governments for decades didn't help.

Mainly, the UK has been one of the main opponents to the construction of Europe, vetoing this and that legislation when it was unfavorable to banks and large companies.
Also note that you contribute much less than you should thanks to special arrangements that I have no clue why they were given to you in the first place. the view of UK in mainland europe is, basically, "the whining spoiled brat who plays alone", "The lapdogs of America" etc: a handicap to EU construction, not an asset. You do realise your country is extremely unpopular right ? Arrogant governments for decades didn't help.

I've travelled and worked all over Europe and never had the faintest inkling that's the case, and the reason for that is you're making sweeping generalisations that frankly aren't any more constructive than accusing everyone voting leave of being a xenophobe.

'Baseless sense of entitlement'? This thread was going so well.

Did you ever question why we've historically been europsceptic instead of just believing all the 'grass is greener' nonsense seriously pro EU European leaders spout? To posset that our government is any more power or money hungry than any other is a bit naive frankly.

I have plenty of pals from the UK, I always talked about the UK, England, etc, not "the english". I'm not dumping the UK's public image on my brit friends, so maybe they don't know. And yes I'm making sweeping generalisations, because I don't have the time (nor the willingness, tbh) to go in detail over the dozens of traps the UK has laid on EU construction since Margaret Thatcher.
I'm a pretty far left socialist, believe me I'd very much like everyone to get together and so forth. But the UK was an impediment to Europe, so I guess it's better if they make it in last when all the work is done.

If you're a far left socialist, that's not going to help you look upon the UK favourably. I think our two countries histories also won't much help, but if you surround yourself by left wing opinion then the British action on an EU level wouldn't make sense.

I personally am not far left, and I think what the EU sells people like you on is not only unrealistic, but also massively inflated in terms of its authenticity.

I also think it's a bit patronising that you'd infer that not only do you speak for the majority of Europeans - you're no more European than I am - but that you're suggesting that those very same people have been protecting my feelings all this time.

It'd be lovely if everyone in the world could live together and love each other, but they never will, and it's not something you can legislate for. Or, in the EU's case, attempt to appear to legislate for.

It's also very patronising and condescending to tell someone their ideas are "unrealistic and inauthentic". I would very much preach the same for the right's entrepreneurial selfishness, and a world taken to its extreme wouldn't be a place I could live or raise my kids in.

I believe unification will be the only way through the trying times ahead. In my eyes, individualism/nationalism may as well skip a few steps ahead and bring on the Mad Max vibes. That doesn't make me an extreme leftist, after all PC culture and its malformed ilk are dumping enough poison in that well, but equally I don't find sense in taking pride in the dirt that you were born on by chance. Heritage, culture, race, sex etc are not earned and so therefore no sense of achievement or pride should ever factor into it. How's that for a left wing thought? Wouldn't be considered very progressive for stating that TBH, but if we're going to play the logic > emotion card, national pride can jump on the bonfire too.

It's also very patronising and condescending to tell someone their ideas are "unrealistic and inauthentic". I would very much preach the same for the right's entrepreneurial selfishness, and a world taken to its extreme wouldn't be a place I could live or raise my kids in.

I believe unification will be the only way through the trying times ahead. In my eyes, individualism/nationalism may as well skip a few steps ahead and bring on the Mad Max vibes. That doesn't make me an extreme leftist, after all PC culture and its malformed ilk are dumping enough poison in that well, but equally I don't find sense in taking pride in the dirt that you were born on by chance. Heritage, culture, race, sex etc are not earned and so therefore no sense of achievement or pride should ever factor into it. How's that for a left wing thought? Wouldn't be considered very progressive for stating that TBH, but if we're going to play the logic > emotion card, national pride can jump on the bonfire too.

Click to expand...

Aside from the fact that I wasn't addressing you, I don't think you've actually read what I wrote.

The unrealistic and inauthentic remarks were in regard to the EU, not anybody's beliefs.

Secondly, we're not talking about extremes, as the extreme progression of left wing socialism is communism and I'd be surprised if you were in favour of that. If you are, the chances of us agreeing on anything are basically zero anyway.

'Trying times ahead'? We're talking about money, a made up construct, and in a nation like the UK which has its foundations in a well-matured democratic socialist construct. Unification sounds great, and it's what the majority of people want, but the way to get it isn't to jam everyone together under an unelected beurocracy, it's to bring people together very gradually.

Anthropologically, we haven't evolved to function in huge vastly diverse groups of people, and we've only needed to since the agricultural revolution tens of thousands of years ago. For millions of years prior to that we operated in small, family units with maybe one or two other families, a clear hierarchy and sense of purpose for each member, hunting and gathering. It's because of this that people struggle when coping with significant groups of people and why they're naturally wary of foreign things; people, food, you name it.

That's not to say people are naturally racist or whatever, but since that agricultural revolution, through ages of empires, people have tried time and time again to smash massive groups of people together, and the take away every single time is that slowly slowly wins the day. The fast growing empires that have gotten to the point of exporting people across their entire geographies are the ones that have crumbled the fastest.

People are slowly learning to overcome not only their wary instincts, but also what they're taught by their predecessors who are stuck in their same way, but even now if you try and bring average people together too quickly, you increase the level of resistance.

According to that source, the UK paid 11.3 billion (thousand million if you count that way) euros and claimed 7.0 billion in benefits. France paid in 19.6 billion and claimed 13.5 billion in benefits. Germany contributed 25.8 billion and claimed 11.5 billion. All three are paying more than they get back, but the UK was on the short end of that scale. I guess, for a wealthy country, the sentiment that they were not contributing much is understandable; however, they were contributing, and what they contributed will be sorely missed, I'm sure.

According to that source, the UK paid 11.3 billion (thousand million if you count that way) euros and claimed 7.0 billion in benefits. France paid in 19.6 billion and claimed 13.5 billion in benefits. Germany contributed 25.8 billion and claimed 11.5 billion. All three are paying more than they get back, but the UK was on the short end of that scale. I guess, for a wealthy country, the sentiment that they were not contributing much is understandable; however, they were contributing, and what they contributed will be sorely missed, I'm sure.

Click to expand...

Definitely! and their exit will probably place a considerable increase in the pressure on those "providing" states.

It's not like Greece or Spain is going to pickup the slack.... Only the richer countries have the ability to pickup this slack. I think they will eventually leave also.

Last one out is a rotten egg scenario. This is the end of the EU. Good riddance.

If a country's language, music, and art are cultural and important..... Why isn't their economy, politics, and currency ALSO culturally important? (rhetorical, they obviously ARE important).

I personally am not far left, and I think what the EU sells people like you on is not only unrealistic, but also massively inflated in terms of its authenticity.

Click to expand...

Actually, what the EU sells me today is more right wing hardcore capitalism... which we feel is greatly because of the UK. I want the EU to sell me something else. Note I'm not a true communist either, I'm an advocate of a controlled private market with tighter regulations than what we have today, and better tax control.

however, they were contributing, and what they contributed will be sorely missed, I'm sure.

Click to expand...

Not really: access to the EU market without being a member isn't free (ask Norway and Switzerland, among others) so they'll endup still payhing but, without rebate, without funding, and without any say on policy.

Given that the UK and the EU conduct approximately 30 billion pounds worth of trade per *month*, I think that adversarial attitude is not going to be terribly productive going forward.

Click to expand...

Those billions aren't going anywhere and are for a big part UK imports. They'll just benefit less from that trade, and the EU more.

Actually, what the EU sells me today is more right wing hardcore capitalism... which we feel is greatly because of the UK. I want the EU to sell me something else. Note I'm not a true communist either, I'm an advocate of a controlled private market with tighter regulations than what we have today, and better tax control.

Click to expand...

You keep saying 'we' like you represent some majority and I'm really not convinced you do. It's the UK's fault the EU represents hardcore right wing capitalism?!