Where and when did language begin? A remarkable new study may have the answer

The origin of spoken language has stumped linguistics dating as far back as the Twenty-sixth dynasty in Egypt and the first recorded language experiment conducted by a Pharaoh named Psammetichus I. While it is widely understood that our ability to communicate through speech sets us apart from other animals, language experts, historians and scientists can only hypothesize how, where and when it all began. Some new findings may provide some real insight into this conundrum.

A recent study conducted by Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, suggests two very important findings: language originated only once, and the specific place of origin may be southwestern Africa.

While most studies focus on words in order to trace the birth of modern language, Atkinson zeroed in on phonemes (the basic distinctive units of sound by which words are represented) of over 500 languages around the world. By applying mathematical methods to linguistics, Atkinson discovered that the further humans traveled from Africa, the fewer number of phonemes survived.

To put this into perspective: Many African click languages or “click consonants,” found in all three Khoisan language families, have more than 100 phonemes while the languages of Oceania, the spoken language of the Pacific Islands, Papua New Guinea and New Zealand – the latter being the furthest migration route out of Africa, have only 13. The Modern English language has approximately 45 phonemes.

Atkinson’s findings challenge a long-held belief by linguistics that the origin of spoken language only dates back some 10,000 years. Atkinson hints that if African populations began their dispersal from Africa to Asia and Europe 60,000 years ago, perhaps the spoken language had to exist around that time and, as Atkinson hints at, may have been the catalyst for their dispersion and subsequent migration.

ALLAH has created man and when HE created man HE gave man the ability of language so we can express our emotions and tell about our need..who don’t admit the existence of ALLAH,he tell me where’ll they go when they die or what’ll happen to them? there science has no answer about it.. so turn to ALLAH before u return to ALLAH…

The history of the English language really started with the arrival of three Germanic tribes who invaded Britain during the 5th century AD. These tribes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes, crossed the North Sea from what today is Denmark and northern Germany. At that time the inhabitants of Britain spoke a Celtic language. But most of the Celtic speakers were pushed west and north by the invaders – mainly into what is now Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The Angles came from “Englaland” [sic] and their language was called “Englisc” – from which the words “England” and “English” are derived.

These comments really gave me a headache! Everyone wants to seem so intellectual and argumentative with a twist of sarcasm! U have the freedom to believe whatever u wisj to believe so y all of the hostility? It’s not that serious. Christians, u don’t have to prove that God exists or that the Bible is the truth. Some people are “too smart” for their own good which means there is no room for argument. Being week n spirit has grave repercussions, so just let the intellects
have their fun here with all of their scient
ific facts and what not and we can just continue to praise Him, while they “make sense of things”. We know what’s real. I love the comments n the truth and the most u can do for anyone is pray for them, that includes the misguided nonbelievers. It’s so very sad. Don’t be scared while ur tongue is confessing…children of God know what I men. Wait, some intellects know too!

I like how u started all respectful an peaceful then u ended it with the same things Christians say. lol I’m a Christian but I don’t pass the word to those witch don’t want it. u got the right idea though love thy neighbor even if they try to crucify your but

I believe Kristin (April 17, 2011 was close to being on target. If, as we are now told, homo sapiens as a species originated around 200,000 years ago, they would have had a spoken language from their inception. And homo sapiens sapiens (around 50,000 years ago) would most certainly been able to speak as we do (just a different language).

If we look today at certain specific species of birds we find sometimes hundreds of different sounds none of which we understand. But just because we don’t comprehend what is being communicated does not mean there is not language.

In my writing I look at the pre-human beings of perhaps 2,000,000 ago, and believe that while these people lacked the physical construct to form words they would have had a means of communicating. That with grunts, facial changes, and body language. Just paying attention to body language today is very telling. Continual effort at communicating would have formed the throat components we now have with which to speak. No, it did not take place overnight, but it likely happened within a species.

Religion is born out of fear,we fear the unknown so we put religion in there to replace the unknown and remove the fear.I dont know when language started and nor does anyone else.What we read are only educated guesses that may be wrong or right.The dead sea scrolls where written by uneducated people in an uncivilised barbarick world.If charles dickens had been alive then churches would be praying to oliver twist or the like,my point islanguage is fantastic whether religious or otherwise the stories from the bible are great stories just like harry potter and whenever language developed(personally i dont care) i say hooraay for it and treat it as a woderful gift,Even if your or mine spelling isnt that great.lol

The bibliophiles don’t seem to read any literature outside the restricted stuff that supports what their religious leaders insist is Truth.

None of these people appear to be aware that the Tower of Babel myth did not originate in the Jewish/Christian holy writings; it originated in Sumerian mythology as did a number of other myths borrowed by the Jewish writers and written into first few books of their holy scriptures. If these borrowed myths are “true” then so is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which contains the original versions of most of them.

Besides, Sumeria and Jewish religious mythology are not the only stories that exist to explain the origin of different languages. These myths exists from Australia to South America through India and China.

As for suggesting that the Christian Bible is inerrant and everything in it has been proved – do these people read anything that has not been veted as “safe” by their pastors? A quick look at the last 50 years of secular (non-religiously biased) archeology should put that myth to rest very quickly. The consensus is that the Jews arose from Sumeria (hence the use of their mythology in the Bible), were never enslaved in Egypt and never wandered around the Sinai desert for 40 years. There are numerous biblical stories that cannot have happened at the times that are recorded there, the wall of Jericho was destroyed well before Joshua and his band are supposed to have got there, and so on and on.

/end disgusted rant

The article is fascinating and raises all kinds of interesting questions about the origins of language. It has been disputed, of course, by other recent research that suggests that there are in fact several origins of language. I guess we will find out who wins this debate when both lines of research have been followed up over the next few years. It will be an interesting time.

Words have no effect on people who refuse to listen. Compromises just can’t be made, so all people do is dismiss ideas they find unsuitable to their ideas. ‘Course, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but dang—can’t y’all get along each other? Debates can be fun, so long as insults aren’t thrown around. “Hymn-singing Christians” and “You Atheists seem to think you’re so high and mighty” are somewhat nasty to hear. Generalizing can be iffy, maaan.

Unless these are all harmless, fun little disses, and I can’t discern playful banter from scornful ridicule, I’d hope this doesn’t happen in Dictionary.com again… though it probably will, teehee.

But anyways.. yay to people who back up their argument, but boo to those who snub others and their beliefs. Makes me wonder whether science and religion (not just Christianity) can truly co-exist. Also, what’s wrong with evolution? There seems to be no problem with the evolution of languages, but what about the evolution of us and other animals? Can you re-paste your criticism, whoever posted? I think I missed it.

I think the Tower of Babel has all to do with the subject and here is why. The article is spun around the idea of figuring out where language originated, and with the Tower of Babel, we know where different languages were created. This brings us to the fact that they were all speaking one language, it was the language that was created on the 6th day of the creation of the Earth, when God breathed life into Adam’s lungs. Than there was Noah’s ark… Noah was Adam’s great^10 grandson. Once the flood was over and Noah and his family were let out of the ark, it all began… it was Noah desendants that began to build the Tower… If you want to know more, It starts with Adam who let sin into the world, and Ends with Jesus Christ who trampled over death by death for our sins, so that we could get to God. A bit off subject yet, but I hope my opinionated statement is heard and understood. I’m gonna go eat now lol, tummy is groweling!

Yes,it is exactely that, language is God-given yes, of cours for the purpose of communicating. If there wasn’t language ( what ever it could be ) us (Human) wouldn’t have been differenciat from animaux.God created language as well as He gave the promissory that all men are equal and that they have the inalienable righ to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness as we know all of us.

whenever I failed, I never blame anybody and I will ask my self why did I fail… then I will come up with another idea to avoid failing. In your first statement, its like your saying that God is responsible for everything… if someone will shot your head, you will say, its God’s plan… poor you. I maybe a kid, but I never do that… pity these “matured” people who think that way, I think they need to learn this word we call “Acceptance”. *smile

Apologies! I’ve just looked in the discussion after leaving, but read Carlitos’ comments with interest….what can I say?…A very reasoned, patient, [far more than I can claim], and well-written interjection, most of which I agree with, and the small amount I would contest has very little significance. Well said Carlitos.
Pity that the thread moved on from the origins of language, which logically, I suppose, must have evolved from a gesture / vocal combination.
Ian Colley.

Wow, I’ve replied to Ian Colley three or four times and all my comments are gone….. oh well, maybe it was for the best. They definitely very kind comments. Anyway, I think I’m done with the whole “religion arguments”. Dictionary.com is not really the place for all of this. I have a lot that I really want to say to Carlitos, but I feel bad for already having posted all the other stuff on Dictionary.com. If we want to talk about philosophy and faith and science and everything that goes with that, we should probably find somewhere else to do that. I definitely wish I knew somewhere that I could go to speak my mind cause I sure have a lot to say about this stuff – but dictionary.com is not the place. Good luck to everyone who’s brave enough to speak the truth, which by the way is not blind. (if anyone really read the comments, they would know this) And I really am sorry for those who are blind to the truth and just go along with the rest of the world.

@Lorax, I think one of my comments got deleted too :(. Anyways, I think this science vs Biblical truth argument has pretty much ended now, and I can’t think of anything else to type that hasn’t already been typed lol, so I’m sorry to say that I won’t be commenting anymore.

Goodbye and Godspeed! (May God be with you).

Advice to everyone, try to be NOTW (not of this world), just means don’t follow wordly values, because they really aren’t important (and I mean things like popularity, gossip, and looking hot or sexy). Because even though it’s feels good to look good, what’s on the inside is more important and will determine the outcome of your life. Be different.

Also, I would never ever accept with 100% faith something that provides “all the answers”. What a cheat.

This is what the religious proponents in this discussion have done. They have accepted, blindly (or faithfully, depending on how you see it), a book that provides all of the answers.

Science doesn’t do this, though it does present an ability, or a possibility, to one day answer these hard questions after hard work, dedication, inquisition, experimentation, collaboration, verification, etc…

There are many positive lessons/morals in the bible/koran/torah, etc., and these are good for people. But there is also opinionated, biased, factless, unintelligent and primitive hooplah that doesn’t stand against the force of reason and rational.

Though the bible clearly alludes to certain scientific principles, it can not explain them. Also, many of society’s early misconceptions (Flat World, Geo-centric Solar System, etc., were due to man’s ideologies which were based on religion). You will find that even earlier texts, such as of the ancient Chinese, also indicate an awareness of things like the Jetstream, or the immense distances to other stars. You will also find that many humans actually become self aware of certain physical principles on their own. Pehaps this has happened to you, as it has to me at times.

The word of God is exactly that, and will only be tarnished and misconstrued by man, and this is what the bible has done. As you know, man can’t perceive the true voice of God, so how can we put His voice or His words to ours?

Your arguments are good, as are those of scientists. The bible provides a faith-based (and intuitive/humanistic/practical) approach to the great questions, whereas science seeks empirical evidence. There are theories in science, yet to be proven of course, and some that will never be proven, I suspect. Just like in the bible. But to make these challenges against science, I’m afraid, you will lose. This is why religion is becoming extinct.

Religion (or should I say spirituality, as I prefer it to be) is a useful practice/awareness for our sanity. We are meager creatures with tiny understandings. So if it helps you make sense of your world, then do it. But when it goes the way of the crusades or the inquisition, you better know that it won’t be heaven you go to. Remember that ignorance and it’s denial are self-preservation mechanisms that evolution (or God/creation) endowed us with but they can also go horribly, horribly wrong.

@Lorax… sometimes it happens…
amazing people. this makes the blog very interesting. and i love the argument… and exchange of ideas and information. this is the product of our ancestors who created these words that we were saying now. and some people even portray cavemen as dumb but for me they were the first geniuses

@Casey: Awesome Job on your first comment! Here are some more examples

Isaiah 51:6 (New American Standard Bible)

6″(A)Lift up your eyes to the sky,
Then look to the earth beneath;
For the (B)sky will vanish like smoke,
And the (C)earth will wear out like a garment
And its inhabitants will die in like manner;
But My (D)salvation will be forever,
And My righteousness will not wane.

This is an illustration of the second law of thermodynamics, which was only proposed a few centuries ago.

Jeremiah 33:22 (New Living Translation)
22 And as the stars of the sky cannot be counted and the sand on the seashore cannot be measured

Job 22:12 (Contemporary English Version)

God Lives in the Heavens
12God lives in the heavens
above the highest stars,

where he sees everything.

this shows that the stars are numerous and extremely distant. People wouldn’t have been able to know that without the development of the modern telescope and trigonometry.

New Living Translation (NLT)
Job 38:12
12 “Have you ever commanded the morning to appear
and caused the dawn to rise in the east?

Job 38:14
14 As the light approaches,
the earth takes shape like clay pressed beneath a seal;
it is robed in brilliant colors.[a]

This is a picture of the earth rotating on its axis. For centuries (specifically from the time of Aristotle to the time of Galileo Galilei) everyone thought that the earth was round. In fact, before then if you said that the earth was round you would be labeled as a heretic.

Its cool to see how all the homeschoolers are commenting. I too, am 16 and homeschooled. I could tell, Casey, by your writing style backed up by references that you were homeschooled.

And to anyone that notices any grammatical mistakes, I’m from the south and I can’t help it.

Well, here I am again! My last post disappeared somewhere, so I’m afraid everyone was denied the pleasure of reading my pearls of wisdom. I wonder why, do you think it was due to Divine Intervention?

By the way Mr. or Mz. Casey, ‘lorax’ [unamed], et al, my father was a Deacon of a Congregationalist Mission church and sometime lay preacher. He was a lifelong Christian, and so I was learning about religion [and English grammar] fifty-odd years before you were born. He was a wonderful father, volunteered for WW1, served as a Medical Orderly in a field ambulance on the front line in various parts of the world, because he wouldn’t injure anyone, but had a great sense of humour, which seems to be sadly lacking in yourselves and the majority of the previous correspondents. He left school at the age of 13, so was largely an autodidact, and highly intelligent, but would have been appalled at your shortcomings in the English language….as am I.

He explained to me that the Old Testament was basically the History of the Jews, along with allegorical fables such as the Garden of Eden, and Tower of Babel, in order to try to explain creation to a basically primitive people, and of course it was assembled many years after the time of Jesus, by numerous contributors, so cannot be taken as word-for-word truth written in stone, but as a guide for living, and an historical basis for the nation.

The New Testament was the real story for adherents to the Christian faith.
I still have my Red-Letter Testament, although you probably have not heard of it, being as you claim, a redneck from The South.

The original contributors, interested, like myself, in the origins of language have all dropped out, you may notice, probably due to the juvenile-level religious content……as now will I, having learned from some foregoing comments that I need only look out from my window and see something which pleases me, to have proof that there is a god after all…..proof?

Try to do a little thinking and questioning, and Deo volente, you will grow out of your teenage arrogance, and be more like the gentlefolk I have met in Texas and Arizona.

@ Casey – Excellent points, all. Don’t let anyone steal your Shalom (Peace / completeness). @ Brittany – U R far more supported than U know. @ Lorax U 2 seem to B part of the Home Schooled Crew. Good job on all of your parts, & major props to your parents. Me thinks it high time to Home School my own children. I only had them attend public schools to learn social interaction skills, but the limits put on actual learning & critical thinking is astounding. All 3 of you are on the right track, but allow me to share with you what I’ve uncovered during the last 25 years of my own research.

1. “God” is NOT a name, & neither is “Lord”. I would strongly suggest looking up the origin of both. & while you’re at it, the tetragrammaton & it’s anti-scriptural reason for being instituted by men (men’s tradition), & the word baal (Ba’aL), which our Creator Yah warned against.
2. There are other “entities” (satan / lucifer) that go by the title of God (& god), thus making it senseless to call The Creator Yah the same title. (Genesis 1:1) “In the beginning Yah created the heavens & the earth.” Well…within the heavens He also created the Elohim, or the gods. 1 of the Elohim would be an EL, or god. Yah created these as well, making it impossible for Him to be 1.
3. The Hebrew word HalleluYah means praise you Yah. Somehow, beyond all reason, this was translated in English to Hallelu-j-ah, but with the same pronunciation. OK…question: if it’s pronounced the same, why change the spelling? Come to think of it…why were any of the prophets names changed? When we look the names up, they are of Hebrew origin & the original spelling of every name ending in -iah, was -Yah. Delving deeper, when we look up their meanings they always correspond to The Father Yah! Servant of Yah, Yah’s helper, Exalted by Yah, Friend of Yah, Gift of Yah, etc. Who then is YAH?
4. Psalm 68:4, Isaiah (YeshaYah) 12:2 & 38:11 of the New King James version of the English translation of the scriptures show us The Most High’s actual name, YAH. The Book of Malachi, Proverbs 30:4, & Exodus 20:7 (The 3rd Commandment) explain how important Yah’s name is to Him. & no scripture mentioning the words, “…His name…”, or “…My name…” makes sense if it is followed by a title & not His name. He has 1 name, the same way everyone submitting posts here have 1 name. We all have different personality traits, but none of those are our names. We can not give our Creator different names on a whim. Would any of us like it if someone called any of us any name they chose to call us? I think not. If anywhere in scripture Jah or Jehovah is mentioned, know
5. THERE WAS / IS NO LETTER “J” IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE! & NAMES DO NOT GET TRANSLATED! in addition…
6. (Wikipedia)
“J” is the 10th letter in the basic modern Latin alphabet used today; it was the LAST of the 26 letters to be added. “J” originated as a swash character to end some Roman numerals in place of “i”. Gian Giorgio Tressino (1478–1550, “Father of the “J”) was the first to explicitly distinguish “I” and “J” as representing separate sounds, in his Ɛpistola del Trissino de le lettere nuωvamente aggiunte ne la lingua italiana (“Trissino’s epistle about the letters recently added in the Italian language”) of 1524. (& thatz obviously B4 it started being used in English!)
(Dictionary.com)
“J” – the letter is a late modification of Roman – “i” -, originally a scribal creation in continental M.L. to distinguish small – i – in cursive writing from the strokes of other letters, especially in the final positions of words. But in English, – y – was used for this, and – j – was introduced c.1600-1640 (approximately 1637) to take up the consonantal sound that had evolved from – i – since L.L. times. This usage first was attested in Sp., where it was in place before 1600. English dictionaries continued to lump together words beginning in – i – and – j – until 19c. Occasionally “J” represents other sounds, as in Hallelujah which is pronounced the same as “Halleluyah” (See the Hebrew).
This being the case, everyone should ask themselves what the point of that was?! This is why NO 1611 KJV Bible says HalleluJah. More important questions: If there was no “J” 2000 years ago…what were people calling the Messiah? & what is The Father’s name? (Proverbs 30:4) “…What is His name, & what is His Son’s name, if you know?” What is the name that he doesn’t want people forgetting or replacing with Ba’aL? (Proverbs 30:6) “Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, & you be found a liar.”
7. We need to question who writes & commissions the textbooks we were “taught” from in school. & why should we believe them when we’re asked to have “faith” in the validity of these uninspired men with who knows what kind of agenda? But the Bible is nonsense? People baffle me with their twisted logic.
8. The founders of America did NOT believe what we were taught they believed. 33 of the 35 signers of the Declaration of Independence were high ranking Masons. Please do your homework on them. Wanna see what they believed for real? Get a copy of “Morals & Dogma” by Albert Pike, “The Lost Keys of Freemasonry” & “The Secrets for All Ages” by Manly P. Hall.
Ever seen “The Matrix”? Well that seems to be a LOT closer to reality than what has been presented to us for hundreds, even thousands of years. We’ve all been lied to. Massively deceived, & the deception is about to get worse. In these next 2 years we will see more “Natural” disasters, which we will find aren’t quite so natural at all, including an earthquake in the U.S. under the New Madrid fault line. We will have full disclosure of an ET presence, followed by more mass deception regarding the following of / listening to/ partnering with these same “aliens” by the Galactic Federation of Light. This was actually started in 1977 when during a UK news broadcast the airwaves were commandeered by the “voice” of a representative of The Inter-Galactic Mission (Ashteron or Vrillon), stating how it was imperative that earthlings learn to live together or leave the Galaxy. Something far more personal is coming soon, but it won’t be anything like how it’s presented to us earthlings. There will also be a crash of the economy, followed in the not too distant future by World War 3 against the Muslim world (Islam), the seeds of which have already been planted. See Afghanistan, Libya, etc.
I could be wrong, except these “plans” were written about in the 1800′s!! Will it matter where language started if the economy crashes, we get ushered into another World War, or we’re asked to come together as 1 religion, under 1 Gov’t so that we can “accept” population “reduction”?! I think not. We as a people need to wake up & find out what is real & what is fake, quickly. Our time is shortening daily. Valiantly seek Truth & diligently seek Yah to present yourselves approved to Yah. (a combo of Proverbs 8:17, Psalm 9:10, Jeremiah / YirmeYah 9:3 & 2Timothy 2:15) & what Truth is can be found in Psalm 119:142 & 151. Shalom people. Just thought this thread needed a heavy dose of TRUTH. Not my truth, just TRUTH. All “religion” is man made, so for someone to blame Yah (the one most erroneously call God) for religious wars is ridiculous, & they are seriously misinformed. Choose Yah, & Yah bless in the name of His Son Yahoshua Ha Mashiach (The Messiah); the only way 2 B safe.

@Lorax, I know your name’s not Lora! I accidently put that when I meant to put Lorax! Lol. Dr. Suess. Bring’s back memories of learning to read with his book’s. I remember the The Lorax, now that you mention it, but it’s been year’s since I’ve read it. : )

@Ian Colley. Aw shuck’s, Mr. Colley, well you know us folk’s down South cain’t spell, so thank you for correcting my grammar and such! No, but seriously, I’ll be the first person to admit that I’m horrible at punctation, but as Lorax said, I didn’t know this was about literacy as much as it was about stating my faith.

The only point I was trying to make is that you call me illiterate because I believe in the Bible and God. Being a Christian is faith, but it’s also a relationship with Christ. I don’t expect for you to be able to understand it, so I won’t elaborate. And I know you didn’t say thing’s such as, “The Bible is horrible.” But you imply it.

Deo Vindice! (God will Vindicate) I also take Latin. I hope you gain more understanding of the Christian religion and learn that it’s really not a bad religion.

@Science4God, I agree with Lorax, love the name! I too love science, just not when it’s trying to disprove God. As I said above, I like creation science. It’s pretty cool. I love what you said to Ian, “Tatay loves you.” That was good. I wish I would have said that but I just get so mad at people like that who judge people they don’t know. But anyway’s keep believing in God and never give up on Him!

@Lorax, thank you Lora for explaining things to people like Ian. I get so mad at people like that, I can’t even think. They want to say all this stuff about the Bible and what a “fairytale” it is when they probably haven’t even picked it up.

I believe in science and I believe in Tatay(my personal name for God). I agree with 7Teen that Tatay gave us teh ability to ADOPT! without it His creation will not survive. He were able to learn to speak and create words for us to understand each other better.
To Ian,
I cannot judge you because i don’t know you and you don’t know me, and with all the respect. I would like to tell you this,
“Tatay loves you.”

Ok, then Mr. Ian Colley, since your to lazy to do any research yourself on many of your misconceptions, I’ll do some for you. First, God does not “require humans to genuflect in purpose-built buildings, to sing specially written songs of praise to them, and compose self-serving prayers, all of which must be heard, understood, and acted upon”. If you have ever read the Bible you would know that God does not require us to do anything. He only can hope that we come to him in order to be saved from the sin that we brought upon ourselves. You atheists seem to think your so high and mighty, but your just not. Your a measly little human who can’t do anything your self and need God desperately whether you realize or not. Sure your at the top of the food chain, and have the highest intelligence of any other animal, but that doesn’t your “Oh so mighty” and can do whatever you want.

Second, you seem so surprised that there is pain in the world. Again, if you have ever read the bible you would know that the cause of disease and birth defects is the work of Satan, not God. And because God created us and therefor loves us, he continues to heal those who rely on him, and redeems even the worst of tragedies caused by Satan. And of course people kill each other in the name of religion. People can and do become corrupt. This of course is the byproduct of free will and Satan. Satan wants people like you to see the anguish of the world and think that if there were a god, he must be terrible. But as long as you have an open mind, God can open your eyes to the truth.

Also, you said that these “unseen, unheard, magnificent benefactors” blah blah blah. Why is god unseen? Just look outside at what he has created, or at least what’s left of it, and you can see him. Just listen to the stories of Gods provision and miracles and you will hear him. And for the part about slaughtering other organisms, know this; when God created the Garden of Eden, every was perfect, and all the animals ate plants. It was at the fall of man that some animals became predators. And people should not torture animals. Let me remind you once again that people have become corrupt. As far as eating animals, I think that we eat way to much and that the food industry is messed up. If you have the right vegetables, you can survive solely on plant food, and if you don’t have enough vegetables, you can survive on minimal meat, specifically of animals you can catch yourself, like fish and flightless birds. God also says that some day when he makes the world perfect again, the animals will once again eat only plants.

And lastly, we are not hymn-singing, unthinking suppliants. We are simply people, just like you, searching for truth. And when I look at what you have written, I must admit that you seem pretty unthinking, blindly going along with the rest of the world. The only thing that you said that was definitely true was how we are killing our God-given world, which will need a lot more than only praying.

Thank you, Casey, for your diatribe, I apologise for the ‘insult’ in my reference to your contributions as semi-literate. I was not wishing to offend, but merely stating a fact. I’ve taken a few minutes to indicate some of the errors that your teachers obviously are not correcting in class, or overlooking when making your awards, maybe it is a reflection on their abilities in teaching English…or in teaching!
I have ignored the incorrect use of conjunctions* in starting sentences, and used parentheses to highlight some of the more obvious literary transgressions and omissions in the following two passages from your ‘Comments’.

* ‘and’ ‘so’, ‘yet’ etcetera are conjunctions and can rarely be capitalised, except possibly in quotes. A sentence must be able to stand on its own, as I learned in Primary School when six years of age.

Casey on April 20, 2011 at 6:20 pm
@BTW Ian, next time you insult me[,] sir[.] Make sure you know more about me. I’m far from illerate [illiterate] actually. I have recieved [received] many reading awards in fact, about ten writing awards, and I’m an A/B student. [pause for applause].

This is the thing about you [A]theists. You think you can insult everything you don’t know. [difficult to do!] You use [B]ible quotes when you try to paint [G]od as this horrible mean god and yet[,] you don’t even know what they mean. [I never quote from the bible]
DO NOT EVER [shouting...naughty!] call me half literate again [comma] just make yourself proud that you insulted a little, how did you say it, [interrogative mark] “hymn-singing” [C]hristian. I hope you feel like a big man now[.] [comma?] I really do. I hope you feel so proud that your [you're] not one of those “idiots” who believe in something after death. [I really have no idea what I'll believe in after I die] [W]ho believe in something because they were raised that way and it is their lifestyle. [exactly.....unthinking, blind faith in what one is told, instead of the use of reason, proof, and logic]

My personal quote: [Personal? No, it's from the bible].

“Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way that you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity.” I Timothy 4:12
And sir, if you think this wrong, then so be it. [I can see nothing wrong in that, except for the faith bit, and can't recall saying so].

Casey on April 20, 2011 at 6:53 pm
@Ian, [and] I think you are half literate. Are you serious? Here is your quote: [“] They may have allowed blind, deaf, and disabled children to be born, and mistakenly designed terrible diseases but hey, surely one can miss a few tricks whilst trying to listen to all those prayers, and watching people kill each other in the name of religion? [“]

Have you ever, ever read the Bibe? [bible] I mean seriously. This is one of thing [one of the things?] that is talked about the most in the [B]ible. Death, illness, all of this is becaus [because] of sin. Sin is here because of Adam and Eve. [Adam and Eve, now who's serious?]

Next time you call me illiterate, make sure you know what the heck ['heck', euphemism for h***, the place below...naughty!] your [you're] talking about, cause [because] obviously you don’t. [comma, lower case 'a'] [A]nd its not God’s fault that people kill each other, thats [that's] ours. God gave us free will, obvious [oblivious?] to the fact that their [there] are [A]theists at all, so its [it's] not his fault that people will kill each other. Once again, thats [that's] sin.
And bravo, sir, your [you're] so smart for calling me illiterate when you don’t know anything abou [about] the Bible that you call so horrible and hate so much!
[no, I don't...never mentioned it, and of course my lack of knowledge of the bible has no bearing whatsoever on your ability, {or lack thereof}, to express yourself clearly and concisely.....in my native language.]
Regards, Ian Colley.

Creationism is not a science, as it is based on faith and not proof, and science is based on proof and not faith. We should not learn it in school, as there are many different religions, non of which can be proven. Any taught would offend those of other religions, and all would offend atheists.

The Darwin quote doesn’t prove any thing, as he wrote it without of any of today’s research and technology. It has been shown how the complex organs could develop.

@Ian, and I think you are half literate. Are you serious? Here is your quote: They may have allowed blind, deaf, and disabled children to be born, and mistakenly designed terrible diseases but hey, surely one can miss a few tricks whilst trying to listen to all those prayers, and watching people kill each other in the name of religion?

Have you ever, ever read the Bibe? I mean seriously. This is one of thing that is talked about the most in the Bible. Death, illness, all of this is becaus of sin. Sin is here because of Adam and Eve.

Next time you call me illiterate, make sure you know what the heck your talking about, cause obviously you don’t. And its not God’s fault that people kill each other, thats ours. God gave us free will, obvious to the fact that their are Atheists at all, so its not his fault that people will kill each other. Once again, thats sin.

And bravo, sir, your so smart for calling me illiterate when you don’t know anything abou the Bible that you call so horrible and hate so much!

@BTW Ian, next time you insult me, sir. Make sure you know more about me. I’m far from illerate actually. I have recieved many reading awards in fact, about ten writing awards, and I’m an A/B student.

This is the thing about you Atheists. You think you can insult everything you don’t know. You use Bible quotes when you try to paint God as this horrible mean god and yet, you don’t even know what they mean.

DO NOT EVER call me half literate again just make yourself proud that you insulted a little, how did you say it, “hymn-singing” Christian. I hope you feel like a big man now. I really do. I hope you feel so proud that your not one of those “idiots” who believe in something after death. Who believe in something because they were raised that way and it is their lifestyle.

My personal quote:

“Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way that you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity.” I Timothy 4:12

OK. I admit it, 15 year old half-literate children have convinced me that there are supernatural beings powerful enough to have created the whole universe.

Beings vain enough to require humans to genuflect in purpose-built buildings, to sing specially written songs of praise to them, and compose self-serving prayers, all of which must be heard, understood, and acted upon.

They may have allowed blind, deaf, and disabled children to be born, and mistakenly designed terrible diseases but hey, surely one can miss a few tricks whilst trying to listen to all those prayers, and watching people kill each other in the name of religion?

Remember, these unseen, unheard, magnificent benefactors also dreamed up lots of other weird and wonderful organisms and placed them on our world in order that the human race, [along with animal predators], could slaughter them, torture them, eat them, and amongst other things breed them out of all recognition.

Nice!

Yes, thankyou Casey et al for putting your case so succinctly, and converting me to being a hymn-singing, unthinking suppliant, though still arrogant enough blindly to believe that the whole of creation was ‘designed’ for humanity.

We are in the process of killing off our ‘god-given’ world anyway, so……all together now………let us pray!

Wow Casey! amazing… I believe in evolution because without evolution, no life will be left… God created us, and He equiped with the ability to adopt!
And science helped us understand these things. Too bad some people are overwhelmed with the knowledge that they learned, maybe that the reason why God did not give us superpowers because humans as we are, are prone to corruption.
*pardon my grammar, I’m not a native english speaker

@Brittany, hey Brittany! I’ve found out something really interesting that I think you and everyone else should know. I know this isn’t the place where I should be posting it at all, and I’m sorry for posting it here. But anyways, here it is:

As we all probably know, Charles Darwin is the father of evolution, coming up with it and publishing his book in, I think, 1859. Now people in the 19th century didn’t have the technology we have now, so when they looked at DNA in microscopes, all’s they saw were little blobs they called protoplasm. So Darwin came up with the idea from looking at DNA that we all come from one simple cell. Now, in are day, with out better technology, we know there is no such thing as a simple cell and that all cells are incrediably complex.

Darwin wrote in chapter 6 of On The Orgin of Species that “natural selection can only act by the preservation and accumulation of infinitesimally small inheirted modifications, each profitable to the preserved being… If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, succesive, slight modifications, my theory would break down.”

Darwin says it himself. We have found cells and organs that are very complex with our modern technology that Darwin clearly states could not be formed by numerous, succesive, slight modifications. So in truth, the theory of evolution broke down the moment modern technology discovered the complexity of DNA and the human bodies. So why are we still learning it? Have scientists, really read Darwins book, where he says this clearly.

@JD
I have no doubt in my mind that the world’s original language was Turkish.Since there are nations still speaking Turkish in China,there are countries like Azerbaijan,Kyrgyzstan,Uzbekstan,Kazakhstan still speaking Turkish in the central Asia,since we know countries like Hungary,Bulgaria use to speak Turkish and called themselves Turks only 1000 years ago,Since Turkish and American Indians have 300 common words ,since there are many people in North Africa who still call themselves Turks,I wonder how you can still doubt this!
WHAT ARE THEY TEACHING YOU IN THE WEST?
That Muslims are terrorists and they did 9/11?
That there were ancient Greeks?
How brainwashed can you be!
I laugh at you with my …..
Look ,this is from genesis 11:
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar[b] and settled there

@Brittany, really I never thought of that? Actually, it would be kind of cool. I love to debate people on politics, religion, and such. Or at least as far as yelling at my TV screen! Lol. It was be cool also to get into theology. Heck, there are a lot of things I would love to do! I also love history, and its sad that America used to be the most Christian nation and now its not. We were founded on Christian beliefs no matter what anyone says. I even have quotes to prove it! Lol. But as you said, this really isn’t the type of article to debate that on. Your thanks is appreciated.

I am also glad that I have you as a sibling in Christ as well. I think its good that there are still teens out there who still believe in God, even when many of them are pulling away from religion.

Once again, wow! All your proof and facts are so cool, it’s overwhelming! Also, I think you should consider joining a debate team if you haven’t already, your really good at debate! I know you want to be a linguist, but i think you should look into theology or being a Bible teacher at a Christian school. I don’t even know you, but I sure am glad to have you as a sibling in Christ! I know none of this has to do with what people are arguing about on here, but i just wanted to thank you for being one of the strongest speakers commenting on this thread.

@Arcanis, I agree somehwhat, but you can’t mix the two when the two don’t agree. You don’t hear anything about creationism science in school, only evolutionary science. I believe we should be able to hear both or at least pick which want we want to learn. And another thing, most scientists, at least 90% in the US are Atheist and are biased.

Einstein believed in God, why can’t these scientists? Thats is the question I want to know.

@Scott Byran, once again you show your complete lack of intelligence by your one statement, “It’s amazing that this day and age so many people still take the Bible seriously.” Okay, for one, yes I have read the Bible and have you read my post above about science in the Bible. And saying that poeple are basically idiots for believing in God is like saying Muslims who belive in Allah are idiots. You can’t sit there and call people’s religion’s stupid just because you don’t believe it.

Its amazing that this day and age people still take evolution seriously. Darwin’s theory was originally based on the theory that all life came from one simple celled organism. This was in the 19th century before they even knew much about DNA. Now a days, we know enough about DNA and human cells, to know that they are in no shape or form simple. They are so complex that many scientists say they can only come about by Intelligent Design. Here are some quotes:

“Each cell in the human body contains more information than in all thirty volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica. It’s certainly reasonable to make the inference that this isn’t the random product of unguided nature, but it’s the unmistakable sign of an Intelligent Designer.
Walter L. Bradley,
The Mystery of Life’s Origin

“Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.”
Dr. T. N. Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission, USA.

“Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.”
Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research,
National Center of Scientific Research.

“[Evolutionary theory] is still, as it was in Darwin’s time, a highly speculative hypothesis entirely without direct factual support . . . ”
Michael Denton, molecular biologist

I am sorry to say, freedom of inquiry in science is being suppressed. Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator. They cannot even mention the possibility that—as Newton or Galileo believed—these laws were created by God or a higher being. They could get fired, lose tenure, have their grants cut off. This can happen. It has happened.
Ben Stein, author, actor, film-maker
EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed

Biochemist Michael Behe (Darwin’s Black Box) says that modern science has made the Darwinian explanation of the origin of complex life forms much less believable than it was in Darwin’s day.In the 19th century, it was believed that a cell was just “a homogeneous globule of protoplasm.” They did not know about DNA or the complex processes that go on inside a cell.

The book’s central thesis is that many biological systems are “irreducibly complex” at the molecular level. Behe gives the following definition of irreducible complexity:

Behe starts with the example of a mousetrap; he claims that a standard mousetrap is “irreducibly complex”. Such a mousetrap consists of:

(1) a flat wooden platform to act as a base

(2) a metal hammer, which does the actual job of crushing
the little mouse

(3) a spring with extended ends to press against the platform and
the hammer when the trap is charged

(4) a sensitive catch that releases the hammer when slight pressure
is applied

(5) a metal bar that connects to the catch and charged hammer
(there are also assorted staples to hold the system together)

Behe then continues with his logic as to why this system is “irreducibly complex”:

Which part could be missing and still allow you to catch a mouse? If the wooden base were gone, there would be no platform for attaching the other components. If the hammer were gone, the mouse could dance all night on the platform without becoming pinned to the wooden base. If there were no spring, the hammer and platform would jangle loosely, and again the rodent would be unimpeded. If there were no catch or metal holding bar, then the spring would snap the hammer shut as soon as you let go of it…

A mousetrap cannot “evolve” slowly, bit by bit. All of the parts must be in place at the same time. The same with such things as DNA.

If this isn’t enough for people to start doubting Evolution already then I don’t know what is. These are just some of the reasons I started doubting what I was taught.

Once again, do not delete my comment! I have copy and pasted. People need to know this stuff.

@Scott Byran, once again you show your complete lack of intelligence by your one statement, “It’s amazing that this day and age so many people still take the Bible seriously.” Okay, for one, yes I have read the Bible and have you read my post above about science in the Bible. And saying that poeple are basically idiots for believing in God is like saying Muslims who belive in Allah are idiots. You can’t sit there and call people’s religion’s stupid just because you don’t believe it.

Its amazing that this day and age people still take evolution seriously. Darwin’s theory was originally based on the theory that all life came from one simple celled organism. This was in the 19th century before they even knew much about DNA. Now a days, we know enough about DNA and human cells, to know that they are in no shape or form simple. They are so complex that many scientists say they can only come about by Intelligent Design. Here are some quotes:

“Each cell in the human body contains more information than in all thirty volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica. It’s certainly reasonable to make the inference that this isn’t the random product of unguided nature, but it’s the unmistakable sign of an Intelligent Designer.
Walter L. Bradley,
The Mystery of Life’s Origin

“Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.”
Dr. T. N. Tahmisian, Atomic Energy Commission, USA.

“Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.”
Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research,
National Center of Scientific Research.

“[Evolutionary theory] is still, as it was in Darwin’s time, a highly speculative hypothesis entirely without direct factual support . . . ”
Michael Denton, molecular biologist

I am sorry to say, freedom of inquiry in science is being suppressed. Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator. They cannot even mention the possibility that—as Newton or Galileo believed—these laws were created by God or a higher being. They could get fired, lose tenure, have their grants cut off. This can happen. It has happened.
Ben Stein, author, actor, film-maker
EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed

Biochemist Michael Behe (Darwin’s Black Box) says that modern science has made the Darwinian explanation of the origin of complex life forms much less believable than it was in Darwin’s day.In the 19th century, it was believed that a cell was just “a homogeneous globule of protoplasm.” They did not know about DNA or the complex processes that go on inside a cell.

The book’s central thesis is that many biological systems are “irreducibly complex” at the molecular level. Behe gives the following definition of irreducible complexity:

Behe starts with the example of a mousetrap; he claims that a standard mousetrap is “irreducibly complex”. Such a mousetrap consists of:

(1) a flat wooden platform to act as a base

(2) a metal hammer, which does the actual job of crushing
the little mouse

(3) a spring with extended ends to press against the platform and
the hammer when the trap is charged

(4) a sensitive catch that releases the hammer when slight pressure
is applied

(5) a metal bar that connects to the catch and charged hammer
(there are also assorted staples to hold the system together)

Behe then continues with his logic as to why this system is “irreducibly complex”:

Which part could be missing and still allow you to catch a mouse? If the wooden base were gone, there would be no platform for attaching the other components. If the hammer were gone, the mouse could dance all night on the platform without becoming pinned to the wooden base. If there were no spring, the hammer and platform would jangle loosely, and again the rodent would be unimpeded. If there were no catch or metal holding bar, then the spring would snap the hammer shut as soon as you let go of it…

A mousetrap cannot “evolve” slowly, bit by bit. All of the parts must be in place at the same time. The same with such things as DNA.

If this isn’t enough for people to start doubting Evolution already then I don’t know what is. These are just some of the reasons I started doubting what I was taught.

I reckon language originated with gestures because it’s so difficult to talk without wanting to use our hands and arms. The decreasing phoneme theory seems plausible mainly because as languages grow more sophisticated (to keep up with the growth in the complexity of the memes that matter to us) it becomes harder to make transitions from one sound to another when there are many different sounds. Writing systems also seem to create a selective pressure favoring simpler mappings between symbol(s) and phonemes.

It’s amazing that in this day and age so many people still take the bible seriously. Have they actually read it? Gosh, the first and last commandments define “thought crimes” for crying out loud! You can’t get much more absurd than that. Do these folks really want to live in a world where people are stoned to death merely for disbelieving in the “correct” god, or coveting their neighbors’ property? What kind of person worships such an intolerant and brutal monster just to save themselves? Are not advertisements designed to inspire common desires for the good things that others have, and isn’t our entire economy and overall wealth a product of that same desire to achieve ever more useful and remarkable products, industries, and lifestyles?

@A Pair O’ Docs, thank you for the comment. I never try to play missionary. And I never try to convert anybody, I just try to get people to see our side and why we believe. Christians and any religion really that believes in any god are ridiculed for it and I think its wrong.

Its not even about Christianity. Before the modern day, there weren’t many peope who didn’t believe in a god. You had the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the Jewish, and the Egyptians, just to name a few who all had their god or gods. Its human nature to want to believe that there is something after death and I think its horrible now a days that more and more people and kids are becoming Atheists. They’re just getting taught in science that we’re nothing more than chemicals that evolve, and thats just not true at all. I don’t see how any one can look at the beauty and complexity of our world and think someone didn’t create it.

But anyways, thank you for the comment. I would hope that you look more at Christians side of the argument before you deem everyone a missionary trying to convert people, but I appreciate you recongnizing that I was trying to show evidence.

@Brittany, thank you Brittany! I’m glad I could show you that the Bible does have science in it. I am home schooled too! What a coincidence! I have learned evolution a few times throughout my years in scool and it gets reall annoying. People that try to make Christianty sound stupid say we believe in a “big man in the sky.” Well guess what? You believe the universe just exploded for no reason and matter magically appeared. Did you know that scientists still have no explanation for how the matter got there? They avoid the question all the time. Its because they know that Evolution goes against science in matter cannot just appear, it has to have gotten there somewhere. And the first law of thermodynamics is a proven scientific fact, where as Evolution is not.

I really do think this article is interesting though because I like learning about language and such. In fact I’m considering being a linguist in the Air Force when I graduate. But I just wish people would start looking more into the Tower of Bable and other languages. I think they are biased because they believe in Evolution which states humans evolved in Africa. Its like a police investigation, if you just focus on what person of interest, the real suspect might be out there but you’ll never know because you only focus on that one person.

@Juicebox: I think Science and Religion is somehow interact with each other but in a different ways.
This article reminds me of the universal language in the Pacific Circle, like the word “lima” which means five…

@Casey — Great examples of supporting what believe in with facts and logic. The world needs more people like you. And like you said in one of you first posts, when you really do research, there is nothing in the Bible that can be proven false, and most science actually supports the Bible.

Same goes for Britt@ny and all the others defending what they know is right and true. Keep on fighting!!

You know, for all you people saying that God does not exist, I have a challenge for you. Lately I have been questioning the Bible’s legitimacy, so I’ve been researching any questions I have, and so far, everything that I’ve found has made perfect sense in regard to the Bible, and even supports it. As crazy as it may seem, you may not be able to rely completely on what others tell you. Just cause you were taught the evolution theory in school, doesn’t mean it is true! Don’t just believe anything you hear, use your brains, I’m sure they’re there for a reason. Or maybe you don’t want to find the truth, cause sure is harder than doing whatever the heck you want right when you want. Truth isn’t easy, and may require sacrificing what you rather do, like wasting time entertaining your self with meaningless crap or doing what feels good, thinking there are no consequences. Guess what! Amazing people, people who go down in history and leave legacies, there lives were hard! But I guarantee that at the end of the day, they were more satisfied than you are. Don’t just follow along like everyone else. Like I said in an earlier post, dig deeper. Find truth. Maybe life does have meaning.

The more I think about this post, the stranger it seems. How could people ever not have language? I mean, whether you believe that a being greater than yourself *gasp* created life, or that a tornado blew through a junk yard and over time became a fully functional neighborhood, it’s easy to see that humans are social creatures, and like many other animals with higher intelligence, we could not function without community and relationships, which obviously requires some form of language. I may be wrong, but it seem like ever since the beginning of humanity there must have been language. I mean, there was for other animals…. right?

Guys, following this forum has been an amazing experience! Are you all nuts in the US? For sure, you live on a different planet! I loved the one who said that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri! It’s fantastic! …

Wow! I just read your post with all the verses in it, and I thought that was so cool! I either haven’t read those verses before, or I didn’t understand them at the time, but thanks to you now I know what they mean! SO THANK YOU, for putting those up, showing that the Bible DOES mention scientific things. I know one thing for sure, if I wasn’t a Christian and if I believed in science only, that post of yours would have gotten me to begin questioning science and logic. It would have made me want to know more about what God says in the Bible.

I have been taking a Bible class recently, and it states some very interesting things. Did you know that through the ages, the Bible is the only book that has been copied more than any other book and written in the most languages more than any other book as well? NO other religion has lasted so long and has had SUCH an impact on history and the world as the Bible has. But, Christianity isn’t even a religion! It’s a faith, and a way of living. So everyone who calls it a religion is wrong.

Thanks for standing up in my defense, I am also 15 believe it or not. And @Kbg, I’m not trying to force the Bible on anyone, and I’m sorry if it sounded that way. I know that forcing God and the Bible on people is no way to spread His Word, and you have a point there on humbleness. You are right that I didn’t sound very humble, I was just getting fired up in my first post and I apologize for not being humble as I typed my words. However, @Casey, I loved what you typed. It is completely wrong that in schools students are taught evolution (I’m home schooled btw), and evolution is just based off faith and no actual proof. So how is it any better than what the Bible teaches? If anything it is much more absurd that man would have “evolved” from monkeys! Mankind is more than and always has been more than just animals, we have authority over animals. (However that does not mean it’s okay to abuse animals in any way, it states in the Bible that people should treat animals well.) I know that statement in parenthesis was random, but just saying.

lol at all the people who come on to Dictionary.com of all places trying to be missionaries. Seriously. It’s pathetic. I mean, I’m not saying that it’s wrong to believe in the Bible, it’s just stupid to come on to a site like this to God-troll people. People like Casey, however, I can deal with because he/she didn’t say “lol science is stupid,” but did manage to share beliefs and “evidence.”

So far there are 147 comments on this thread, so it’s difficult to follow a reference to a previous remark. Maybe it would be best to copy/paste the original into your own message to save readers having to scroll back in the hope of getting the gist?

Incidentally, an article on the origins of communication by language, oral or otherwise, seems to have spawned, in this list of comments, a host of misspellings, flying apostrophes, and ludicrous punctuation, not to mention bad grammar, indicating perhaps, the way in which language changes or is degraded.

Not for the first time on fora has the original subject been hi-jacked by believers in the supernatural, so couldn’t we avoid the obfuscation and try to keep to the point?

This article just daintily glides past countless linguistic facts, the foremost being historical sound changes. There’s languages with many phonemes and few phonemes all across the world, even though there is a general trend that the number of consonants and vowels in an inventory are inversely proportional. If Atkinson is talking places of articulation within Sprachbünde, that’s different than total number of phonemes. We really would have to see the actual paper to know what he’s really proposing. This article really only does more harm than good in it’s mere glance at the study. If you’re interested in linguistics, take a class, read a book, or do a Google search – even Wikipedia is better than this misinformed snipit.

You know what! I want to know why my comments are being removed! What was wrong about my last post? All’s I said was I wished there were more studies on the Tower of Bable, is that so wrong. No. Its an honest opinion that deserves to be heard. This is getting stupid. You can’t just delete all my posts.

@Andrea, I would love them to study the the Tower of Bable as well. I think it would be interesting to see if they find any thing reguarding that and see if the breaking of languages really happened there. Like I said(though I think the post got deleted) I think they are only studying Africa because people believed we evolved from there. Doesn’t it make sense for people to go to a place where they think we “evolved” from. I of course, don’t believe in evolution, so how about more studied on other languages and the Tower of Bable.

@Wes, for God’s sake! I never claimed to be a “good Christian folk” as you so blatantly put it. I’m fifteen years old and I have done more bad things than I have ever wanted to. I was having my own doubts a while ago, even though I was raised in the Christian religion, and I decided to look up some questions I had about both evolution and the Bible and I learned some pretty interesting things.

You say they only put this article on here to bring us the facts, well we are only commenting on it as a Constitutional right of free speech to disagree and then we are attacked for being stupid and pathetic! Its amazing the double standard. I’m only mad now because I get so tired of Christians being called idiots!

@KansasRoots, my comments were romoved as well! Thats a violation of the Constitution. I and everyone else on any computer have the right of free speech to say whatever we want. That is wht you have a comment section. If you do not want people to say what they feel then take down the whole comment section, otherwise keep my comment on. I’m trying to say this article is wrong, I’m just trying to say why I can’t agree with it. Free speech.

After reading this article and the never ending comments, I feel obligated to add my two cents.

God doesn’t exist. Gasp! But of course he does the Bible says so. Well the Bible also mentions unicorns multiple times, and that we should exacute women who lose thier virginity before marriage, or maybe they’re just typos. Why is religeon even being argued right now? The man who wrote that article and the man who gathered the evidence have spent time trying to teach us about the origin of language. They didn’t write this article to attack religeon. They’re simply bringing the facts to you. I personally appreciate that, but you “good Christian folks” will deny anything that suggests you are wrong. So pretty much all of science. Here’s an idea, lets put down the Bibles and read text books. You know, books with facts and knowledge to back them up not beliefs.

This is not true….the origin of language came from…..when the people as it says in the Bible…..wanted to build a tower and get to God…..but the God changed the language so everyone had a different language and no one understood each other. That’s the real origin of language. People just try to say different things to get their minds off God!!

Thank you for the compliment! I also agree that we are not trying to persuade, brainwash, force, or other forms of implimenting “a different way”. If we didn’t care so much about OTHERS (such as you), we wouldn’t mention it, think about that for a minute…

Further more, Look at science. Specifically the “Big Bang Theory”… a rule of science says ‘Matter can not be created or destroyed but only transferred’ then that right there makes the big bang theory a phony. This is what happens when a language is not spoken correclty and taken the correct way and how meanings get lost in their depth. People tend to take things they hear (mispronounciations, incorrect spelling *I’m not a perfect speller*) and the brain actually hears something other than what’s being said. The language is how history is lost and found, language is how we fight or love, language is so complex and amazing. Ever heard of a religious one speaking or praying in Tongue? It’s a reference to the Holy Spirit. Speaking in Tongue’s is scary if you don’t know what it is… I would know, it used to terrify me! Now that I’m a grown woman and have ventured out to learn about something I knew nothing of (you should try that sometime) and found it is something completely different.

All higher animals have some form of communication. It ranges from something as simple as hissing or barking to complex and language-like as wale songs. Undoubtedly, our communication ability had to evolve in step with our bodies and brains. Apes do not have a speech center like ours, nor can they produce all the sounds that we can. Neanderthals could not have had a language as well developed as our modern languages are, because of the position of their larynx. But they could not have been able to teach their children how to make tools and weapons without at least a primitive language. Language had to evolve in a continuous, gradual process from the simplest forms of communication all the way to the complex forms we know as language. In short, there can be no single point or boundary in time at which we could say that language has suddenly developed.

Isn’t it funny how people say things like “keep religion out of science” or “that’s a myth”, but they never say anything else… maybe cause they don’t have any good evidence to support it. What ever happened to actually making sense and stating something that you can support with facts? C’mon people, can’t you stop a second and see if your “claims” really have any relevance before you post something stupid, silly, and random, just for the heck of it cause you think your so smart. Don’t just believe whatever you are taught! Figure it out for your self, dig deeper, and find proof! Let’s see some logical evidence!! For anything!!

In the bible it talks about the Tower of Babel and how God destroyed the tower and changed the people’s language so they wouldn’t build the tower any higher causing the individuals to spread about in different parts of the world. How come no one ever try to find ruins or descriptions in ancient relics of this type of true history (not that i’m saying you have to, to prove this, but it would be interesting to find relics about this)?

You know that comment wayyyy up there about Juicebox and Kbg. the one that said to keep religion out of science. I have something to say about that. God is science he made the heavens and the Earth and You didn’t happen by chance and just appear out of a monkey Plus no one is trying to force religion on you we are just trying to show you the truth. The origin of separate language is all in Genesis. At the tower of Babel. Besides people have spoken like Tazz M said since Adam. Besides if you still don’t believe me Scientist do use the Bible! The Bible if you notice is all, almost history. All of it connects. KansasRoots is very right and I agree with her for the most part.

Not sure how exactly this thread deviated where it has and there’s just so much balderdash going on here it’s hair-raising. But against my own good judgment, I’ll ask those who claim that science is the same as a religion, nothing can be proven and so on – I hope you realize that the car you drive, the house you live in, the medicines you cure your ills with, the appliances you use and, most obviously, the computer at which you sit to type posts are all products of science.

This is all well and good, but he can’t have been the first person to realize that language originated in Africa 60,000 years ago. The theory that people have only been talking for only 10,000 years has been obsolete for a long time.
Tens of thousands of years ago humans developed a special bone in their tongues that allowed them to make the sounds necessary for advanced speech. This bone has been found in skeletons over 10,000 years old, so the fact that humans have been talking for as long is probably already accepted in the scientific community.

@ Casey
What about Lucy was proven “false”? Her skeleton is still believed to date back 3.2 million years, and she is still very much accepted by the scientific community.

O, the delusions of men! So full of their own self importance & intellect. & this is why the world is SO ripe for a complete takeover. The 1 world gov’t & religion is almost upon us, but rather than get together to thwart it, people bicker about irrelevant topics like man’s science. Science is merely man’s attempt to uncover the mysteries of The Father Yah’s creations. What’s more, 99% of the population don’t even know Yah’s name, instead opting for titles & false names instituted by men. Mass mind-control is a beast! Who would’ve thought that most people would be so willing to give up their freedoms, their families, their communities, & adopt the many forms of satanism that have been thrown in their faces? Some of them have boldly proclaimed their disdain for Yah, like evolution & Atheism, who don’t even attempt to find the truth; 1 based on man-made nonsense needing the same leap of faith as belief in Yah but with far less proof, & the other a sad excuse of mere existence, just 1 small step from satanism’s credo of “Do as thou wilt”.
Hebrew was the original language, extremely specific & exact, in place upon Yah’s creation of 1st man. THAT was/is Yah & Yahoshua’s language. Believe what you will, just understand that your “beliefs”, purposefully tainted by long-standing mass deceptions, hardly constitute facts. Your religions were created to mislead you, as was “the education system”, which should really be called “the indoctrination system”. The Scriptures (& their translations, once the falsehoods are weeded out), are not a representation of religion. That has things in a backward order. Religions, wholly man’s, were designed to lead people away from The Most High Yah. & it has worked…to perfection. The time to turn back & diligently seek the truth of Yah & His Son, Yahoshua is nigh. It’s Yah’s way, or the road to death…the 2nd, far longer one.

Look up “The interview with Howard Wallace Rosenthal”, “A Letter from Your Globalist Friend”, & AboveTopsecret(dot)com/forum chat by Hidden_Hand, Oct. 2008 This tells you why we are where we are. It was all planned. “They” think we’re all stupid! Useful idiots, or dissenters, the whole lot of us. Wake up, or die sleeping! Shalom & YAH Bless. (Nothing is as you think it is.)

Just noticed my most recent comment was removed… how sad! And pathetic! O well. It must have stricken a chord with someone to motivate them to remove it. It’s helarious and sad…. language here is limited to a moderators opnion.

I think there is some confusion between phonetics and phonemes. Phonemes are units of spoken language that correspond to vocalized sounds. Phonetics are units of written language that correspond to vocalized sounds.

The idea that as languages dispersed further away from Africa, fewer phonemes were being used does not mean that the integrity of the language was diminished. It merely adapted and evolved to what the cultures needed it to do. Context plays a key role in determining usage of language over time.

For the many who think that the internet has diminished the integrity of our language, I understand your chagrin and I too picture the average internet user as not having a large vocabulary.

Again, however, you have to remember the role context plays (and technology) in language development. Teh Gutenberg pressed made it possible for vernaculars across Europe to become realized written language; the internet is making it possible to condense language experiences into short letter strings that are NOT linked to phonetics, but to entire phrases of meaning.

I think that is just exciting as it is frightening. The solution: teach our children to use their language appropriately.

Finally, to address the religion vs. science discussion: yet again, I think it is important to remember CONTEXT here. The articles is obviously addressing an anthropological aspect of language and not a bibilical aspect. Just throwing in a 2 cents worth of religion is not suitable for the discussion unless you meet the discussion on its own ground. It’s like joining an argument about who’s going to do the dishes by mentioning who mowed the lawn.

Although my beliefs about God and the world are just as important to me as the science used to explain the world, I have always viewed the story of the Tower of Babel, and many other bible stories, as an allegory. It is a story not meant to be taken literally.

This does not necessarily discredit or devalue the purpose or the power of the story, in fact, I think it enhances it.

The story is not about the origin of language, but the pride of mankind and to take any other message away is not to understand it. The punishment for building a tower to the heavens could have been anything that we humans have to suffer with. The fact that diverse languages was chosen speaks to our concern that even though we’re all human, we don’t all speak the same language and we don’t know why. We don’t understand why we can be so similar and so different at the same time.

Help! As a scholar of historical linguistics and Assyriology (Ancient languages and archaeology of Babylon and earlier Mesopotamia yep pre-biblical ooo), I’m trying to stop myself from attacking my computer screen in utter disbelief over the Tower of Babel even being involved in this discussion.

Religion or lack thereof is a personal matter, but for Pete’s sake if you really believe an invisible deity’s anger at the ancients architectural pursuits caused us all to misunderstand each other all of a sudden….

I’m not trying to knock anyone’s religion. I myself am a recovering catholic turned Agnostic (how’s that for a label;)

And yes I’ve read my bible, and, koran, and torah, and Mesopotamian scriptures, and Greek mythology, and Nordic Mythology which in instance after instance contain an overwhelming number of similar stories with different names only showing that they are all man’s way of trying to come to grips with why we are here. A question that we will never be able to answer so why not concentrate on making the best of the limited time we’re here.
If you feel like having a religion enriches your life and helps you be the person you want to be then more power to you, but in general if you have a set of functioning eyes, it is difficult to deny how much anguish it also causes in the world…And no not just by certain individuals as the typical response to that statement is.

OK total sidetrack…getting back to the subject…There’s an interesting book called Linguistic Anthropolgy that explores the whole monkey/early man language issue;)

@Ram Luitel–Not true with Sanskrit.(Although it is believed to be the oldest Indo-European language on written record) No one knows what the oldest spoken”language” is for obvious reasons, but the oldest record of a written language “as we understand the system of “language” is Ancient Sumerian. Although one can learn to interpret texts, it is extremely difficult and translations can often be highly debated as it, despite sharing some glosses with Old Akkadian (another ancient Mesopotamian dialect), doesn’t fit into any know language families as such.

@none of your business
Science NEVER claims to be “absolute”; quite the opposite, in fact. As soon as you hear someone talking about “absolute science”, start backing away.

@koko
Nice. I wonder when consonants appeared? They do give a greater flexibility and more variety, but I imagine early language didn’t have that much variety to begin with… so perhaps a population that could produce clearer consonants might have a greater technical advantage, as it were? Erk.

And I almost forgot…. if you don’t believe the information about the Tower, then start looking into the medical field. There is a condition where some people wake up speaking their language with a different accent. Say a southern american (redneck twang in the voice) wakes up one morning, their southern accent is gone and instead they are speaking with a british accent. They can’t control it and they’ve never been to britian. It’s a very rare disease…. so if turning to God doesn’t do it for you, maybe medical history will… I will pray for those who have no God in hopes that he may find you a soft place to land.

@ JUICEBOX; Why should we leave religion out of science? Is there something wrong with having faith in something you don’t have to see in order to know it’s there? Or is it the fact that you fear the unknown. Yes, the languages started before the Tower that everyone referrs to… it was because of the tower that the people were trying to build to get to heaven that God created different languages so that when the tower was built, it wouldn’t be built correclty. The Tower did eventually collapse becuase of the communication complications. I don’t honestly have any opnion or even educated guess as to where speaking originiated. I do know that we can still communicate with out it. A dog does not know the definition of “sit” or “go lay down” but they understand it. Language is only words, meaning and emotion are spoken through the heart and not the tongue.

@ Koko
So Turks used Arabic language as scientific language at one time,Persian as Literature language at another time.What is your point?
These do not change the fact that Latin alphabet and even Egyptian Hyeroglifs were invented by Turks.
FOR people like you facts are not important!For you how you can deviate the facts so you can have your zion is important.You are one of those people who wrote the Genesis and given the mission to confuse the world’s language .You are one of those people who banned any thing esoteric(Özüturk,in essence Turk)at one time.
Just because Hittites,Lidyans,Frigians ,Macedonians used other languages besides Turkish,does not mean Anatolia was not always and solely Turkish.ALWAYS!
I challenge you to post those 1000 ‘s of words from Greek!Because you made me angry and I decide to post all of them!

@Kbg, I’m gonna reply to you in Brittany’s defense? I’m fifteen years old and in school I’m taught evolution and the Big Bang in a whole freakin’ module? Why, its just a theory, you cannot even prove it, nobody had seen evolution happen. So here is my own question, believe in your evolution, why do have to? Why do I, a Christian, have to be taught in SCHOOL about some false thing where tons of things have been already proven false? I learned about the three-toed horse, which was proven false fifty years ago. I learned about Lucy which was proven false. Evolution is just another religion, so why do I have to learn it? If I am free to believe what I want to believe than why in school all over the world are kids being brainwashed.

And another thing, about this article, the only reason I think their saying language started in Africa is because they think we all evolved in Africa. It makes sense that people will say language came from Africa because we did.

It is interesting to note how little has been achieved in africa considering this article that 60,000 years ago language was born and spread out to the world. Did they just give up on the future of progress after their language discovery? or was it so bad that people had to migrate and flee out of africa?
(Such a topic would require pages and pages of explanation to relativity and why progress in its simplest form is visible through advances that can be seen in a civilization over thousands of years until now. Look around you right now, the tools you use. Where have they come from? Which single person has made them and from where has that person come from? these are simple questions with simple answers. It is a human flaw to find answers that do not exist based on another simple fact that our mind looks for answers we can relate to and feel like we are part of it while at the same time bypassing the real truth of it.)

There are still many broken links in history (below and above ground) to make accurate statements about what happened as far back as 60,000 years ago.

Keep things simple and you will most likely find the answer to history and what ever problem you need to solve. Some of these people cannot accept the fact of certain things as they are in simple form so they seek out for the sake of finding answers that no one has found before. They force an answer to their solution, they interrogate history and nature until it is broken and an answer falls out of which they can claim victory on.

take all facts published as facts of one person, not true facts of nature.

In the spring of 1928, Mustafa Kemal met in Anakara with several linguists and professors from all over Turkey where he unveiled to them a plan of his to implement a new alphabet for the written Turkish language based on a modified Latin alphabet. The new Turkish alphabet would serve as a replacement for the old Arabic script and as a solution to the literacy problem in Turkey. When he asked how long it would take to implement the new alphabet into the Turkish language, most of the professors and linguists said between three to five years. Kemal was said to have scoffed and openly stated, “we shall do it in three to five months”.

You can look it up in Wikipedia by searching your first Turkish president Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Before coming to conclusions, I can give you 000s of English words that are derivatives from Latin, Greek, Spanish or any other language. Just because of this, doesn’t mean indefinitely that your language is the mother of all languages. And don’t forget that turkish people are descendants from Mongolian, hence you should be talking in Mongolian and not typing in English!

Assignment: What is the derivative of the word Assasin and how it is related to Hushish?

Secondly, the Tower of Babel, whether being a myth or not, it doesn’t negate the fact that language was inexistent beforehand. The main point of this article is to try and locate WHEN and WHERE people started talking and NOT when people started talking different languages.

Thirdly, if language didn’t start when the first human stepped on Earth, I can possibly deduce that Adam and Eve were actually monkeys and they could only pronounce the A and U vowels, as all monkeys do. Then some time later, other people started including consonants as well.

@ Timo: The notion of “race” is culturally defined. What were, for example, “race” issues in the region of the Apartheid Southern Africa, one will see that it was “racist” and not based in science or even discussed intelligably in any forum. It spontaneously emerged as a means to control and maniuplate a predominate population into servitude. That is “racist.” To track population movements from one region of the planet to another involves “race” which as an anthropologist, I still cannot completely fathom my scientific forefathers/mothers ineptitude in discussing the human species with such a fleeting, narrow margin of accuracy.

It would be better served if we left the notion of “race” into the realm of geneticists, who are better able to answer these types of questions reguarding “race,” human movement across the planet and any origin myths we may need. Genetics will be the future of anthropology, socialization of cultures and even linguistics.

Those cluttering up this chain with references to a Bible story should realize that although it’s largely proven to be true it also often doesn’t mean what it’s usually purported to mean. Like Genesis One is obviously not a chronological account of 6 consecutive solar days. It’s also pretty clear that the Babel story is dated long after birth of the first Bible figures. Christians who pretend that distortions of Bible truths are true evoke blasphemy against their God. If you want to talk about than then please start a separate chain.

There was a book (“Origin of Languages”?) I read several years ago where the author had traced the evolution of language from some place in Afric demonstrating how it changed among various indigenous populations. And just a couple years ago another scientist had a similar project analyzing dna samples form indigenous populations in many areas where such a thing could still be reasonably postulated. It appeared to me that both studies led to the same conclusions regarding the spread of humanity and language. Isn’t that remarkable?

@white, grunts? if you actually looked into the languages that were mentioned in the article you would know that actually it was ‘clicks’

I think it makes perfect sense for language to get easier with less phenemes just like the anceient writings of China and Egypt were made up of many characters (although China still uses them) more recent forms of writing are much simpler. Languages die all the time so it would make sense that some sounds are lost, normally because they are uneeded and many times they are converted into other sounds, which is most obviously shown in the case of how names are sometimes different in different languages

As a culture develops, so too does language. For example Ancient to Modern Hebrew. It is theorized that AH started out as a two radical system, like “pr” for example (vowels are mutable, so while it may be written as “pr” it should be known that it stands for “par” which is the word for which “open” is associated.).

As a culture develops, and becomes more sophisticated, the word becomes “frts” (“pf or f” is a softened sound of “p” and the same radical in AH. The word is now “frats.”) And further refinement becomes “mfrts” for the word “delta.” More radicals lead to more developed cognative ability within the language, in this case from a simple two radical notion of “open,” through a bay, and into a much more complex idea of “river delta.” It too should be noted that simple compounding of an idea, like “prpr” (butterfly – “open open” descibing the wing movement of the butterfly) should not be interpreted as a collective development within the congative social and political structure of any culture. Simple compounding emphasizes a need for more complex cultural development in the fact that this concept is not “implemented” but rather develops over time and use of langauge/culture.

It has been proven, by the way, that children are born understanding language. An informal experiment took place in France during the 1920′s. Russian emmigrants, leaving behind the various revolutions in their homeland, settled in France. The Russian aristocracy of that time spoke several languages fluently, to include French. (This is all anecdotal, so please don’t ask for references.)

A medical doctor asked his patient, who was pregnant, to speak only French during her pregnancy. Everyone around was only to speak to her in French too. When the child was delivered and everyone began speaking Russian, the child couldn’t understand and was “stunted” in their development. Fortunately, languge acquisition is ripe at that age, and she was able to catch up after age 6-8, and make a full “recovery” of her natural language (in this case, both French and Russian).

While we don’t think of such experiments as ethical now days, we do see some value in this. I speak ASL, and have often contemplated this issue of personal language development in conjunction with any myriad disabilities that could potentially reduce ones linguistic success in regards to their culture.

@Tadhg….you mentioned the Bible has been wrong, but failed to give an example….I do not know when the Bible has been wrong, so please enlighted us all.

@Casey…great examples of science in the Bible! Whenever folks have tried to prove the Bible wrong, they have been unable to do so. Try it for yourself, you will find out the Truth is always the Truth regardless of who believes it or not. The Bible is the Truth, it cannot be proven wrong, and it can provide proof for science as Casey points out several examples.

I strongly suggest that the more serious commentors look into the field of glottogenesis, and once that has taken place, it will be understood that you’ve been thinking in these terms all along. Also, I suggest that some research be done in the field of primate vocalization and primate ritualized behaviors; not the neurotic type human behavior.

The article is good for a basic understanding, and as demonstrated, it pulled some very interesting comments that focus on the timeline of human linguistics. It would be prudent, however, to view this as only a brief timeline of suggested behavior, and not a fully developed theory proposed and posited in a scientific forum.

While phonemes are a great idea with which to start this discussion, it should be noted that each language spoken in the current era of humanity is a “contemporary” language. Phonemes develop within each culture as needed, but never as identified as a need. In other words, the psychology of our languages is culturally dependent and not not culturally identified. We don’t wake up one morning and decide that we need differentiate the word “seen” from “scene” (think only about sounds, no written cues), or “sea” and “see.”

This is a great article for the stimulating discussion it has already provided. I’m not a linguist anymore, but still have tremendous respect for any person who can discuss this intelligently and dispationately.

So believe in your bible..but why do I have to? That’s the issue ..believe what you want to..but why does it always end with you biblers trying to make everyone else have to buy your beliefs .what happened to live and let live..do you need to force other people, into your belief system to make yourselves feel more secure..how a discussion of linguistics got to this is ridiculous..let’s get back to science ..

HERE,S A STORY…
There was a family..and. The son never spoke.. He was about 18 years old..they had tried every intervention,every therapy but he never spoke.. Then one night they were eating dinner … All of a sudden .. He said “the soup is too hot”.. the family was astounded.. They said what happened.. Why didn’t you ever speak before this… He replied…”until now everything was “OK”!

One can believe or not, in god, and still have theories.. Einstein didn’t say he spoke to god and he/she gave him the theories..his belief motivated him..so good for the world.. But if god was speaking to him..that’s a whole other story.psychiatric…..but his theory is still independent… based on science.. Keep the religion in some other place….. and don’t try to force it on others..

Anyone interested in the Tower of Babel and what role it plays should look up Arthur Custance and his writings on the subject.

Also, remember that God “spoke” the world into existence…and that “the Word” existed before the Earth was even created. Non-Christians will scoff, but how exactly do you think language could evolve independently? Even if the trait developed in one human by mutation, how would that human be able to communicate with any other pre-linguistic humans? It’s a huge stretch to assume that the complex systems of grammar in existence today evolved from grunts, when no other animal shows the potential to do this. #faceitwe’respecial

Interesting commentaries all around, many of which have great kernels of insight. But I need to know — are any of you here trained linguistic historians? I’ll base my acceptance of facts on who actually knows of what s/he speaks.

@ Jaffui Generally, an original location has the greatest variety. For example, Africans have the greatest genetic variety of all humans. Say one group, call the Jaffui group, left the original location, they would carry >only< the Jaffui genes, and not the Ffuija or Iuffaj genes, which remained in place.
By the same logic, if there were 100 phonemes in the original language group, but one group took away only 70 of those hundred, they would have fewer phonemes. See what I mean?
As to you people who talk about the Tower of Babel or India as the source, please remember that humanity originated in the rock of Pinspkan.

The Tower of Babel is a myth, and the hypothesis that the number of phonemes decreases with time or distance appears to be speculation. However the method of investigation based on that speculation is scientific and it’s very interesting!

I am with those “idiots” who read the Bible and know the REAL truth, like I do. The Tower of Bible is true, all the Bible is, is TRUTH. It was written by God’s people, in His own words. If you try to figure something out by science alone, you will never get anywhere with it, and you’ll be doing a never ending search. Though you may not realize it, the things that happened in the Bible (except the book of Revelation, the only prophecy in the Bible; still waiting for the things in Revelation to happen) HAVE happened. When I read what everybody says about those who stand up for God, Christians like me, I am not hurt. God says in the Bible, that it’s not going to be easy for His followers, we WILL be made fun of, and there will be hard times for us. But I become sad for the people who make fun of us, because I know where me and others like myself are going when we die, and I know where those who deny the real truth clearly stated in the Bible are going when they die. I pray for those who call me an idiot, and who try to base everything off facts and reason, just because they find it hard to believe that miracles DO happen. To all Christians who are reading this right now, your not alone, don’t let yourselves be brought down by what others say about you for standing up for what’s right.

To question where language came from is to suggest that humans did not always speak. The research that this article refers to does not prove where language first appeared; rather, it suggests that those who spoke the original language lived in the Southwest area of Africa, according to this article. This is not incompatible with the Tower of Babel concept, nor does it contradict a creation theory of origin.

Also, as any linguist knows, languages have always changed over time. The study is based on 500 known languages – ones that are currently documented. But languages die regularly and change constantly. There is no way to know if the language spoken in the southwestern area of Africa was the original or a derivative of some other language.

Here’s an interesting question for discussion: How does this relate to ideas of race? There are physical characteristics that are dominant among people who share a common language. If all languages have a common origin, do all peoples also have a common origin? If all people have a common origin, can there really be a scientific definition of race?

These are wrong!
Language has started in the middle east over 30 000 years ago and the original language of the world was Turkish.Until 2000 years ago,only Turkish was spoken on the British islands.Look at these:
Kap———-Cup
Min———-Mine
tan———-Dawn
egri———-awry
Tabla——–table
kart———-hard
su———-sea
Gurur ——-Hubris
akish———action
tepe———top
seytan——-satan
kepmek——capsize
kamp———camp
genel——–general
kalim———calm
kendin(olmak)–Candid.
pir———-pure
dürüst—–honest
I can give thousands of examples like these

Doesn’t this all presuppose that language originated in one place? It just seems unlikely to me that just one person, or group of people should be attributed with the discovery/creation of language. There could well have been a group who invented a language in south west Africa, but also could there not have been a group in North America for example, who created their own language too? Perhaps that would explain some of the anomalies in the current spread of language (ie. Someone mentioned the isolation of Finnish etc.). I think the search for the one unique beginning of language is pointless, but nevertheless very intriguing. As for the inclusion of religion in the argument, if you believe the Bible, then your answer will differ greatly from that of an atheist. So the combination of the two is very hard, in finding one answer to satisfy everyone. I’ve always seen religion as more of a why, and science as a how, so for me the two are incompatible more or less all the time anyway.

In response to Dwarakanath; India is not the birthplace of indo-european languages. The proto-indo-european language (on which Sanskrit is based) was brought to India by the Aryans from central Asia, just like the cast system.

I agree with Josh about migration not stopping after 60k years. And I would like to point out that language may be complex in the amount of phonemes that it has, or by having longer words and a more complicated grammar. All Indo-European languages started out as the later. As someone mentioned already, English used to have many declinations, like in Slavonic and Finno-Ugrian languages. It is the mixing of ethnic groups with different languages, that forces languages to simplify. Britain was repeatedly invaded over a short period of time, and each time it had another language imposed upon it. Now English words are the shortest of any European language and grammar the simplest. In my opinion, for a language to become well developed and complicated, it has to be spoken by a large group of people undisturbed for a long time.

Interesting conjecture, but the comparison is problematic. The far end of the spread out of Africa was the arrival in America. Linguists study four or more basic language families, and there are some thoughts that not all arrived on America by the same path. Some may have survived interesting ocean voyages to settle in a new land. Was Antarctica once habitable? Habitable enough to be a stopover in a long journey? Ah the questions, when we once consider the possibilities!

I get so tired of people saying the Bible isn’t true, its a fairy tale, bla bla bla. You know, maybe if you actually did research beside believe everything shoved down your throat, you would actually know some truth and not doubt it so much. For instance, I myself was having some doubt if God was real so I decided to do a some research and found out some facts, that people just can’t put down. Here is some science in the Bible and if you don’t believe me, look it up. Do some of your own research.

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.

This explains exactly the way the jet stream works, only discovered by air men in WWII. Now how could some man thousands of years ago just come up this and be completely right. I’ll leave you to answer that for yourself.

Leviticus 17:11
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

This statement refers to our blood. Blood is the life of a body, it carries water and nourishment to every cell and regulates the bodies temperature. Up until the 19th century, blood letting for illnesses was common in the medical field until people found out it did more harm than good.

Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

This is an awesome one I think. Because it explains evaporation. Now how could some man who just decided to write a book thousands of years ago know what evaporation was.

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.

All rivers do run into the sea, incase someone didn’t know that. So how could an everyday common man make a trip all around the world and visit every single river to see if every river ran into the sea. The answer is simple. He didn’t have to go around the world, which would have been impossible thousands of years ago, but he did have God speaking through him.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

Do you know that is had only been a recent discovery in modern science that there were infact springs underneath the oceans. I don’t think they knew this thousands of years ago.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The word circle here is translated from the original Hebrew chuwg which meant “sperical.” Were we not all taught that Columbus sailed the ocean blue 1492 and that before that everyone thought the world was flat. So how thousands of years ago could a man sit there and say that the world was round when every other religion and people of that era said it was flat.

Job 28:25
To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

Air does have weight. Once again another modern discovery in the Bible.

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

The Earth does hang upon nothing and for me this is one of the most remarkable scientific sayings in the Bible. Do you know why? Well another religion, I think it is Buddhism, said that the Earth rested upon the backs of turtles. In Greek mythology, their religion of the time, the god Atlas held up the Earth. The Bible is the only religion to make the claim that the Earth was suspened in space. After all, they didn’t have space shuttles.

I’m not putting all of this to convert anybody but I get so sick and tired of people thinking there so “smart” and saying the Bible doesn’t have science and cannot be proven. As you just read, there is some very surprising scientific facts in the Bible. And for those of you that believe in Evolution. Did you know that Evolution basically contradicts science? The First Law of Thermodynamics states that “matter cannot be created or destroyed.” Of course us Christians who believe in God know that this does not apply to him because he is God, he makes the rules, he doesn’t have to obey them and he exists outside of time but for you guys that believe the Big Bang Theory, this presents a little problem.

In the Big Bang Theory is states that the Univserse was a tiny pin point and than it suddenly expanded and matter just all of sudden appeared. Remember what the Law states, matter cannot be created. Where did the matter come from than? Science can’t say.

Yes, the Tower of Babel has not been proven true, yet, but a lot of things in the Bible has, you just got to look for yourself.

Put my two special loves together: history and language and you get linguistic history.
You have two languages in Europe that are almost stand-alone: Finnish and Magyar (Hungary). They are related to a few other languages in the world but their spread and isolation are still somewhat of a mystery. There’s also a language–and a corresponding group of people–that were recently found in some nigh-inaccessible corner of the Asian mountains. I wonder how their language relates to others and what the history of the group is.

I beleive in those who side with the tower of babel, after the people spoke different languages, the ones who spoke similar ones stayed together and migrated together, and lived in communities for long enough. maybe thats why (indigenously not nationally), people who spoke similar languages tend to have similar features probably because those where the ppl who spoke simlar languages and got together.

In 1980s educators in Nicaragua noticed some deaf children speaking a new language. the children had been developing a novel sign language in the dormitory of the school for the deaf in Managua. Language is always being created anew everwhere and everytime. Children create language not society, not adults, not linguists.

FASCINATING —the KARAJA INDIANS who live in THE AMAZON
in BRAZIL AND TRAVELED FROM PERU to THE FOOT OF THE
AMAZON, YET THEIR LANGUAGE RESEMBLES THE JAPANESE
LANGUAGE —no linguist has figured that out.
TIGRERO, a film that was never made, docu by MIKA KAURISMAKI
with THE KARAJAS, SAMUEL FULLER, JIM JARMUSCH 1994–
winner of the BERLIN CRITICS AWARD

Everyone has different beliefs on religion, but please refrain from using the “lol god did it” response when discussing things here. And Cyberquill, you had the best comment on this article. So very true.

I think that a lot of this skepticism (and the article, too) is founded on the idea that migration patterns were extremely linear, and groups settled in different locations along a common path out of Africa, never to move again in 60,000 years. I don’t know a whole lot about linguistics or the migrations of ancient peoples, but I do know that English wasn’t a language that was developed only within the geographical region that we know as England today. A lot of the groups that our modern languages can be traced back to were nomadic, so I feel like that stands in opposition to both the skepticism of the comments and the logic of the article, no?

@ Juicebox, keep science out of religion. I don’t know why everyone tries to figure out certain answers to things in life when it’s all in the bible. Evidence doesn’t produce belief, and if it did, people would stop smoking

It is not necessarily true that the African language was more complex than the languages that formed after it just because it had more sounds, that actually could show that it is an older language because it’s not as efficient. As languages evolve we shorten words and sounds to make them easier to say and help get the point across in a quicker fashion. So even though it is frustrating, as Cyberquill pointed out with the whole Twitter way of typing, it really might just be a natural evolutionary step in language, albeit it was expedited by technology. And to all the bible people on here… wtf?!

@Cyberquill the fact that you and I both understand the meanings of LOL, WTF, and the like, means that they function as language –to communicate an already agreed-upon meaning. Do not confuse “official” language with real language: your English sounds a great deal different from Chaucer’s or even Shakespeare’s, but I’m sure you still consider it English. Language changes; English more than many, partly because it is unregulated. (This for a pamphlet titled “The Hegemony of Standard English”). Being a “snoot” is fun, granted, but do not let yourself forget that grammar is as artificial and arbitrary as manners or fashion.

One complaint I have with these histories is that they make it sound as if a full language simply arose ex nihilo, as if a group of people simply started speaking. Could not an entire generation have known and lived with merely a handful of words? Could the process have been a great deal more gradual than we seem to think?

I have not studied linguistics, but It makes sense to me that language would begin with more phonemes. One would want to make the distinctions in the sounds describing things as obvious as possible to begin with.

One begins by making distinctions, later one sees that there are limitless distinctions and so settles upon generalizations. (I’m hypothesizing).

Also, it is said about people that they expend less energy as they age, because their movements become more efficient. Perhaps our use of language follows that model?

Thomas – The Tower of Babel may have existed, and is not a proven myth. The story behind it, however, is not provable and therefore stands as myth.

Juicebox – It is not necessary to keep religion out of science as long as you remain objective. The bible, if taken as myth, can be a great source of historical information. And seeing as there are not a plethora of surviving texts from the eras the bible spans it is wasteful to dismiss it out of hand for scientific purposes.

Regarding the debate on if the Tower is the central point in which language split into multiple tongues, the story is focused on a geological area. There may have been other languages outside of the writers knowledge.

As for the phonemes, it is my *opinion* that it makes perfect sense for them to lessen the further out you go. As an example: when you were a kid, if you ever tried to make up your own language, you tried to make every word sound different than any other word you made up. This lead to what felt like a billion different sounds to you. However, as you grew up and learned vocabulary of the language your contemporaries speak, you became comfortable with slang words and simplifications. eg can’t, brb, later (instead of goodbye), lol.

To counter-arguments about phonemes starting simple and getting more complex:

Consider slang in cultures. People are notorious for making up their own sounds, words, and meanings for things when there aren’t rules or systems in place, which would exist in slang or early language.

Without a strict system or precedent (no grandmothers correcting your speech), people would be free to make up as many interpretations of a sound or symbol as they wanted, creating a hodge-podge of phonemes and word-meanings.

Only after people implement stricter systems to teach later generations and create written languages, would they need to wrangle in the wild spoken tongue to simplify and formalize it.

I think it’s quite interesting to know how a language starts, where does it come from and why people started using it, thanks for the information you provide us, continue doing it to be completely informed!!

Please spare us the biblical solutions! Complex problems are not well served by simplistic answers.
It’s great that someone is out there trying to find the origins of the languages in the world. I’m intrigued by the development of the asian languages, which are so different from the indo-european ones we speak.

@ jaffui: Humans have a tendency to simplify language; we value economy in everyday speech. For example, some people might say “He go there often”. That’s a simplification of the irregular system: I go, you (sg) go, he goes, we go, you (pl) go, they go. The same is applicable to sound changes.

As for regions close to Africa with fewer numbers of phonemes (Spain was mentioned for its vowel simplicity) — it is my guess that early humans traveled from southern Africa up through the Rift Valley in the east, simply due to geography. If they kept traveling north, they would have been funneled through modern-day Egypt and into the Middle East, Asia, and then Polynesia, etc. Only later would they have made the trek northwest to the regions around the Black Sea, Italy, France, and Spain.

As a side note, there’s always this confounding variable of culture that takes effect in more recent history. Early speakers of English so admired Latin that many of the stupid, hilarious rules of English are only in place because they were rules in Latin. No split infinitives? Rule from Latin. Best part: that’s impossible in Latin because its infinitives are one word, where infinitives in English are two words and completely capable of being split across adverbs.

DUHHHHHHH!!! and yes the tower of Babel is a figurative story (do research) and you will not end up with OBVIOUS (RE)”DISCOVERIES” such as this it is an epidemic in America to be overtly ignorant, another reason we are hated by most.

Biblically that hypothesis is half true and half inaccurate.
It is true all languagues originated from one language, but by
delibrate act of the creator of language who made many out of one.
It is inaccurate because languagues were increeased at Babel,and it is not in Africa.

Interesting, Filipino has very few phonemes too, which seems to conform to their hypothesis. But then again, it could be just one language family (Austronesian) who happens to be far from Africa with very few phonemes.

P.S.It’s unbelievable how some people seriously consider the tower of babel story to be a viable explanation at all. What’s next, are we gonna camp inside whales for 3 days now?

@ Cyberquil: You just made me BURST into a full GUFFAW @ work!! Thanks a lot! Too funny! And absolutely correct.

“NEXT”!!!: @ Thomas: THANK YOU for contributing an intellegent and tactful way of pointing out that the masses inferring that the Tower of Babel has any place in this conversation, are mistaken.

@ All The Others Who Infer That The Tower of Babel Has Any Place In This Subject Whatsoever: The author is discussing the ORIGIN/Inception (time and place) of language. The story of the The Tower (as some have stated here) tells of how one language became many. It does not discuss when the “one language” came about. So again; why is The Tower being brought up at all? (Ugh.)

Lastly, this article is uber fascinating. I hear you (to whome it applies) about the idea that it would seems logical that the breadth between the origin and the current location would yeild MORE phonemes as opposed to less. However, after a bit I was considering how a story, or even a phrase, can become more and more simplified as time, distance, and number of re-tellings increase…I have to accede that it sounds completely possible…

The only reasonable comments here are from Arda, Jaffui & especially Diane D. This whole thesis rests on the assumption that phonemes are lost over time, & that language devolves phonemically. This is as ridiculous an assertion as any ever made. The use of the word “science” in reference to this crazy-ass theory is laughable, at best.

@Robert Black: the term you’re looking for re: Annette is “hear, hear”

1) Not everyone is Christian/Jewish, so using Bible/Torah stories is ineffective, especially when you are coming from a scientific standpoint, where there is really little room for religious impositions. Regardless, the Tower of Babel does not answer the origin of language as it only tells of the separation of the singular existing language into many. Where did that initial language come from?
2) It makes sense that languages would lose phonemes as it gets farther. Languages are ever-simplifying themselves. A great example of this is the fact that many Western European languages have lost their declensions (the Romance languages, English, some other Germanic languages) which they had only about 1000 years ago.
3) English does have more phonemes than Spanish, however, English is a language which has undergone so much foreign influence that it has had to adapt to the sheer amount of loan words and derivations from other languages, particularly Greek, Latin and French, in addition to its Germanic roots. Not only that, but English and Spanish come from different families. Those languages which English comes from may have lost less phonemes than those that sprouted Spanish.
4) Yes, India is the source of Indo-European and Indo-Aryan languages (among others), many arts and many religions, however, the power of language as a whole may or may not have started there.

An earlier study I read which employed a different methodology placed the beginning of spoken language in the region of what is now modern day Turkey. I wish I could recall the scientific premise behind the analysis which yielded that result.

Does anyone remember reading about that “discovery” three or four years ago?

I regret to add this note of skepticism, but among the drivers of academe is the “publish or perish” syndrome among collegians. How much they actually contribute to “knowledge” is debatable. How much they contribute to their own financial security is frequently more to the point. Not LOL.

Re: Leave Religion out of Science
Hey Juicebox,
It is impossible to leave religion out of science. Every unproven theory you believe is part of your belief system. You may try to classify those things as philosophy or theory. Philosophy and theory are religions that are masked as “science”.
The unfortunate state of mankinds’ ignorance prevents any possibility of pure science outside of the laboratory.
Einstein made it absolutely clear it was his belief in God that motivated his theories. When you are smarter than Einstein, be sure to let us know.

The bible is the bible. It was written by men who believed what they believed and that’s all it is. It is there for the spiritual comfort of those who need it. It has nothing to do with reality. The people and the events probably happened but after two to five thousand years they have become garbled into folk lore. To any clear sensible mind the idea of creation is anathema but to the closed mind it is not. There are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear. Language and it’s development must obviously go hand in hand with the growing of the human brain. Primitive people used primitive language pursuant to their needs (what use would a hunter/gatherer have for the word computer?) For those who believe in it leave them alone. For the sane and sensible scientific mind just add power to your elbow

10,000 years is laughable. 60,000 probably falls short as well. I’m fairly certain any advanced tool making, hunting strategies and rudimentary trading would have involved language. I would not at all be surprised if language spanned the approximate time of humanity and even before it (250,000).

Any ability of symbolic thought (art, paintings, sculpture) and the ability to speak (dropped larynx), would have resulted in language. These indices surpass 60,000 years quite easily.

The spoken language may have been well underway 80,000 years ago – perhaps 100,000 years ago leading up to he changes taking place in Africa. Consider the following information from PNAS:
…major demographic expansion centered broadly within the time range from 80,000 to 60,000 B.P., probably deriving from a small geographical region of Africa. Recent archaeological discoveries in southern and eastern Africa suggest that, at approximately the same time, there was a major increase in the complexity of the technological, economic, social, and cognitive behavior of certain African groups, which could have led to a major demographic expansion of these groups in competition with other, adjacent groups … dispersal of these modern populations over most regions of Asia, Australasia, and Europe, and their replacement (with or without interbreeding) of the preceding “archaic” populations in these regions.

Is Atkinson suggesting that the earliest language was the most phonetically complex? Surely a language would begin with only a few communicable meanings and ways of expressing them, and GROW?! Are those “click languages”, so rich in phonemes, perhaps LESS complex SYNTACTICALLY and such? If so, that would indicate that their linguistic development was focused differently than that of other peoples, NOT necessarily that they were the root source of all the sounds other groups use to convey meaning! I’m unbiased philosophically as to human origins, simply skeptical of this premise, at least as presented briefly here.

I agree with Annette and the Biologist Quentin Atkinson. The eleventh chapter of Genesis states that God scattered the people of the land of Shinar and confounded their language. They could no longer communicate in the previous one language. I looked up the land of Shinar, and found out it was in Mesopotamia between Iran and Iraq. Very interesting topic.

It makes sense and I like the science behind it. And actually, 60,000 years ago still seems just a blink away. Didn’t dogs became domesticated about the same time? Maybe that’s why they understand human language so well.

So the migration of folks from Africa to the rest of the world was a “who might be over the back fence?” phenomena. “I have learned to talk so I need to discover who might be around the next curve that I could swap stories with.”

Ah, the power of gossip.

Or, maybe it was the “I need to show off” phenomena. “Hey, look at me strangers. I can talk. Can you talk, too?” Which probably led to, “My talk is better than your talk.” Which led to war.

So, would you say that the closest modern approximation to the language existing 60,000 years ago can be found today in southwest Africa? I want to learn more about ancient language. Thanks for the info.

How accurate is the postulate that phonemes decrease the further away a language group is from Africa. What about regions in close proximity to each other with wide differences in the number of phonemes in their respective languages?

We are told where language developed. It was present at Creation in one tounge and then different languages formed at the Tower of Babel. From that point, different languages have developed from other languages until you have the complex system of languages found today.