Being a genocidal, horrific, blood-thirsty maniac is acceptable to me, but only if you have the mind to outsmart your enemies. Garrosh keeps demonstrating that he doesn't, and, even worse, his generals need to clean up the mess he leaves.

Well it isn't to me, and shouldn't be to anyone that wants the horde to survive.

---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 11:36 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Eis

My signature is actually relevant to this thread.

The main reason I dislike Garrosh is because he started as a whiny little kid, and then he was reckless and rash in Northrend, and now we're supposed to believe he's fit to be a leader? Yeah okay. He's about as good of a leader as a 15 year old boy would be.

and thats probably who he's appealing to, the kind of kids that don't have any moral upbringing.

I agree completely, but apparently a lot of people want both factions to be exactly the same, and be led by pacifists. Why even play a war themed game if you want it to be at peace? Personally, I rolled Horde because I wanted to be the bad guy, or at least closer to it than Alliance. Garrosh blurs the lines, as does Sylvanas, which is why they are my favorite leaders. Garrosh is kind of crappy toward the other Horde races, so he may not necessarily be a fit Warchief, but he would make a fine Orc General.

Probably because the story for the war is fucking stupid, having introduced Bigger Fish (Old Gods, Titans, Sargeras). You want a War-themed game done right? Warhammer. Both of them. There's no "Big Bad", there's no "shade of grey", there's black. Black everywhere. Black and death and war.

I'd like him if he didn't have moments of acting like a petulant child.

I think the root of his problems is behaviour. He might have done good things for the Horde in the short term, using the Cataclysm to gain ground, expanding Orgrimmar's strength, but some of the more 'together' leaders see his quick to anger, rash attitude as one that's going to get him and their people likely killed in the long run, and I don't think they're wrong.

He's definitely a 'short term' kind of guy, he doesn't think far ahead and that will ultimately be his undoing.
I mean hacking the Ashenvale forest as much as you can for resources SOUNDS good for your war machine at first but then what? You've exhausted all your resources surrounding your capital, eventually it'll run out. No means to regrow the forest (Shut up, druids are not that fast at nature insta-fix) no means to keep that flow of resource incoming. He sours relationships with other members of the Horde with arrogance and blind rage and even xenophobia, again, fine while he's riding high, but the second he trips up in his security or an operation with him at the helm goes foul, SOMEONE will be there with a knife to his throat because of that.

There's a lot to be said about Garroshs flaws but those are just some of the things he's done to deserve the reputation he has.

He's not got the all the qualities of a leader. Only those of a dictator. And Dictatorships lacking any ability to think with a level head or cunning usually end up 6 feet under the ground.

I don't mind his brash attitude, that would make him flawed. And that's fine. But that's ALL he is. He's got no mind behind that. He just wants to be 'great' in his way and champion his legacy. And that's really boring.

I don't like Garrosh either, but come on now. This is a game. There are going to be evil characters.

Liking a character because they're evil doesn't mean they're an immoral immature young person.

Getting kind of ridiculous here.

Oh you can like such a character I have no issue with that. Its just when people try to justify that kind of behavour as normal and one that should be an example to others is when it crosses the line.

Hell, I like yogg Saron and the Lich king as villians, but you wouldn't get me saying shit like 'he's to misunderstood he just wants to take care of the undead', alright, I accept a bad guy for what he/she is, I don't try to sugar coat it.

And thats exactly what Garrosh fans are doing now, they are attempting to sugarcoat his bad ways because they think its fun to act like that.

Oh you can like such a character I have no issue with that. Its just when people try to justify that kind of behavour as normal and one that should be an example to others is when it crosses the line.

Hell, I like yogg Saron and the Lich king as villians, but you wouldn't get me saying shit like 'he's to misunderstood he just wants to take care of the undead', alright, I accept a bad guy for what he/she is, I don't try to sugar coat it.

And thats exactly what Garrosh fans are doing now, they are attempting to sugarcoat his bad ways because they think its fun to act like that.

All people have said is that garrosh is good for the game and that his goals are justified even though his methods are dubious thats it i honestly dont think anyone has said he was a great leader (maybe i did in my drunken trollin ways lol)

we all know he is an idiotic tool whos gonna lose in the end but lets just enjoy him while he lasts lets enjoy the flame wars, the rivalry, the faction killing cause when hes gone we all go back to the way things were back to killing no name demons etc etc

trassk just let loose and enjoy your dark side sometimes, loosen up my friend you are a orc after all dont you feel a little bit of the demon blood in your veins, the sound of the drums of war ringing in your ears

Well it isn't to me, and shouldn't be to anyone that wants the horde to survive.

The main reason it's acceptable to me is that the two factions are required, for gameplay reasons, to remain separate (at the current time). There needs to be 2, or more, armies fighting against each other that players can control in order to provide faction identity. In the real world I'd never accept a leader who was what I described before.

Peace at any single moment is no guarantee of peace at the next moment. The only guaranteed way for the horde to survive is for there to be no Alliance, either because it's been destroyed or because it's been absorbed into the horde (or vice versa).

Look at all these Garrosh posts every day. i can't believe how well of a job Blizz has done with him. People are constantly having to talk about him, he has be one of those most discussed characters in world of warcraft lore at this point.

Look at all these Garrosh posts every day. i can't believe how well of a job Blizz has done with him. People are constantly having to talk about him, he has be one of those most discussed characters in world of warcraft lore at this point.

My point exactly

when you create a character that is so universally hated and loved you know you have done something right

Havent played much during wotlk so I didnt really follow the lore back then. But seeing from in-game lore he seems to be some sort of celebrity being guarded by many guards while he tries to win the hearts of the people while during barely nothing. This is just how I see him.

Every encounter with him he came from a portal, did something minor (he removed the corrupted leader in stonetalon mountains which was OK) left his guards and teleported back to Orgrimmar.

It's just so unfortunate that Blizzard didn't do more with him in Cataclysm. Because honestly, he did next to nothing, at least that is in the eyes of someone who hasn't read the novels. This is from in-game experience.

Like many of Blizzard's worst characters, his personality keeps on doing backflips without any explanation whatsoever. It's not that he's an asshole - it's that he's an inconsistent asshole. The entirety of his appearances in Cataclysm worked towards showing that he can actually be rational and slightly more moderate when the situation calls for it; Stonetalon was the moment where we realize that he is ruthless, but not necessarily amoral. And then what happens? Without any character development to explain it, he's suddenly a-okay with attacking neutral parties, flattening entire cities (with or without civilians) and doing some incredibly shady stuff with his Dark Shaman. His development is infuriatingly erratic.

There's other irritating bits about the character; it's never explained why he hates the Alliance on such a deep personal level despite his absence from all of the prior Orc/Human wars, his tirade at Sylvanas amounted to absolutely nothing except an excuse to use the word "bitch" in-game, and his refusal to even entertain the idea of peace is one of the hallmarks of a terrible leader. All of this is compounded by the mystery of why the hell Thrall chose him, let alone a Hellscream at all, to be the absolute leader of the Horde; it doesn't take a genius to work out that Garrosh would go against all of his wishes, and it's not like he'd be denying some kind of rightful heir. Blizzard has done a pretty awful job with the character on the whole.

You shouldn't expect much from an MMO's story, but everything about Garrosh is just badly done. Icing on the cake is that they already gave out spoilers about his fall. That would have a hell of a lot more impact if we weren't tapping out foot over the course of the expansion just waiting for it. Seriously, who spoils the ending of their own game?

Anyway, long story short, I don't hate him because he's the kind of person I wouldn't be buddies with. I hate him as a character because he's poorly written.

---------- Post added 2012-11-11 at 12:56 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Combooticus

ive played through the entire domination point questline on the ptr so judge him when you have completed that

you may change your mind about him or you may hate him even more but he does make his point across in what he is trying to achieve

If it's that "I won't let my people starve in the desert" thing, I don't buy it. It's never even been established that his people are starving in the desert. Seems like one of the writers was just pulling an excuse for his dickery out of their ass.

I really dislike Garrosh, if he had someone like Sylvanas or Voljin as a trusted adviser always at his side hed be a much better warchief.
Crushing the alliance scum is important but being such a stupid oaf about it is not in the best interest of the horde.

If it's that "I won't let my people starve in the desert" thing, I don't buy it. It's never even been established that his people are starving in the desert. Seems like one of the writers was just pulling an excuse for his dickery out of their ass.

Actually, yes, Orgrimmar did suffer a famine pre-Cataclysm (listen to the dialogue from General Krom'gar as he addresses his troops in the fortress. "Your families no longer starve, your loved ones live with with shelter over their heads" is the exact line). Namely, the Alliance invading the Barrens and cutting off the supply of grain and fresh water to Orgrimmar caused the city to have severe shortages of food and drinkable water until another route could be established by going through the Stonetalon Mountains (see: Baine's short story). Its not like Durotar is suitable for agriculture and the Southfury River is polluted from the workshops in Azshara.

It still doesn't excuse the fact that when he says "my people", he only means the orcs. The trolls, the goblins, and other Horde races that lived in Orgrimmar can go stuff themselves. They starved too. And in fact, we actively stole from the Darkspear during Cataclysm.

I can't believe I am seeing another pathetic excuse to make Garrosh likable to us. All those Garrosh fangirls who are a minority and their opinion doesn't matter anymore have to understand that Garrosh is finished, done, finito, caput and generally dead.

As Trassk said Blizzard has done a very bad job with the son of Grom. The number of threads regarding Garrosh doesn't prove that he is a good character just because some hate him and very very very few like him.

If you see the whole MMO Champion there isn't a single thread discussing if Garrosh is a bad leader. All you can see is threads from fangirls saying how awesome Garrosh is only to be silenced by the majority. Get it through your thick skulls. We don't care about Garrosh. He is a failure and his chapter will end in Orgrimmar.

Now on to the other matter. Garrosh destroyed everything Thrall worked for.

When Thrall came to power all the Orcs were enslaved, pretty much every Alliance and Neutral Faction wanted to kill them. What did Thrall did? He changed that Horde into an honorable War Machine helping against Archimonde and helping against other threats during Vanilla, TBC and Wrath of the Lich King. The Alliance knew that with Thrall on the Mantle of Warchief they could be trusted at least more than now with Garrosh. He also worked his reputation with the various Neutral Factions in the game and estalished trade routes with them so his people could have the nessesary to survive. He also accepted all the various refugees into the Horde like the Forsaken believing that everyone deserves a second chance.

Garrosh then comes to power. What does he do? First he spits the proposal of peace with anything non Horde. He disrespects the work of Thrall and his wisdom and challenges him to a duel before the Lich King's attack (I'm talking about the incident where Thrall told Garrosh that he will not go unprepared to a war against the Lich King).
Then he wants to attack the Alliance instead of Arthas ,he causes havoc in Dalaran, he disrespects Tirion and generally every neutral faction in Northrend not to mention causing havoc in the Argent Tournament and then sends his Warsong Clan to attack the Alliance from behind while fighting the Scourge resulting in the death of both of them.

Once Cataclysm arrives he goes into the next level. He attacks Neutral Factions and nations which had nothing to do with his war (Gilneas, Cenarion Circle Tree, The attack to kill all the Alliance leaders in Ashenvale along with Malfurion who was a leader of the Cenarion Circle) resulting in those turning against him. Uses the Cataclysm to his advantage as Wrathon said. Also enlists the Dragonmaw into the Horde and with this action he is now an enemy of the Red Dragonflight due to the past with the Dragonmaw. His ally Sylvannas uses the situation to turn his Forsaken into a new Scourge which in turn will turn the eyes of the Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade upon the Horde in a hostile level (For information see the subfaction inside those two factions called The Brotherhood of The Light. They are preparing to do something against the Forsaken and their plans will start after you get Stratholme which may use as a base of operations in the future). Three more possible enemies.

Then MOP arrives and he goes to the final level. Decides that he has to win with every means nessesary. Attacks literally now without remorsevarious Neutral Factions to gain an advantage. Gains the Focusing Iris after killing some of the Blues. Then waits for the Alliance to gather. He also waits for the Kirin Tor and Kalecgos to gather as Garrosh is now in the point where everyone is a threat to him. He tries to kill them with a Bomb. Then he uses Dalaran to steal an artifact. The end result of those was to make two more enemies in the faces of the Blue Dragonflight and the Kirin Tor. Enlists the remaining Twilight Cult in order to summon him the remains of the Ragnaros Forces. Combine it with the occupation of the Echo Isles which forces Thrall the leader of the Earthen Ring to interfere and you get the point. One more neutral faction turned against the Horde.

So in general Garrosh is fighting a war he simply cannot win. A needless war. In the end he will be his Horde against the more than ever united Alliance and all the Neutral Factions in the game along with the Horde rebels.

Doesn't matter what you say. The game is over. All those I love Garrosh threads are pointless. Thrall may have made the mistake of giving leadership to an incompetent idiot but he will have a gain in the end. Garrosh with all those Horde fangirls that want war will die in Orgrimmar and the Horde will finally be purified of their warmongering taint.

He still had potential to become a second Doomhammer at the start of Cata, but now that Blizz has decided his story ends as a nazi I don't like him anymore and think someone else ought to take his place. An orc who understands the benefits of diplomacy, but doesn't shy away from action when it is needed and always has the best interests of his people at heart.

Horde is supposed to be a Horde. Aggressive towards outsiders. His moves against Vol'jin are the only ones I frown upon (him fighting vs Bloodhoof was without the intent to kill anyways, it's not like he hates the Tauren), but I think he does quite well, and in his current state (that people seem to hate), I think he's in a much better state than Thrall's current state (which people seem to like over the pre-4.0 thrall for some strange reason), which IMO only went backwards since he left the position of warchief (in terms of mental state and image). Sure, Garrosh didn't improve much, but he does just fine IMO, and there currently is no reason for the Horde to hate him. The only real moment where we're SUPPOSED to start hating him, is when he gets corrupted due to trying to abuse the Sha in his favor (him getting corrupted by that is not fact yet, him trying to abuse the Sha in his favor is). Even the rumours that he's supposed to be killing a certain someone, if those are true, I would still not care, any good leader of the Horde would/should do just that IMO: It's war.

TLDR: He's fine, just a tad aggressive towards Voljin, and the real reason why we would want to hate/kill him by the end of the xpac is not in the game yet, so I really don't get all the Garrosh hate.