My favourite scripture in the bible is found in 2. Thessalonoians ch.2. Paul says when Jesus comes the dead in Christ are raised first then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds [of shekinah glory] SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD. Oh that makes my heart sing that last bit.

I am not feeling terribly controversial just now, I realize that other good brothers and sisters have a completely different view of things than I do, in disagreeing with them I mean no disrespect to them. If I am going to have a punch up then I'll roll me sleeves up and say "come on then... let's get it on" But after posting "vessels of wrath" I wish to state a controversial view I have about just who the vessels of wrath might be and the many, MANY more people who I believe are not vessels of wrath but yet are included in that category by people who actually despise predestination, believing [in all sincerity] it to be a cruel doctrine.

It won't have escaped people's attention that this is running parallel to another discussion ongoing. WHAT? Wait a minute, you believe in predestination AND yet believe in "the wider mercy???" yes and since I have stuck my neck out to give the negative side of predestination [as others see it, I don't] I am only being fair to myself in showing the other side of the coin, lest you should think I am a right witch.
*
The Great White Throne Judgement

Revelations 20:4-15

And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgement was given to them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had they recieved his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands.

and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection, blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

VERSE 11
And I saw a great white throne and Him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead , small and great stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And who-so-ever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is only one last judgement and this judgement corresponds exactly with the account of it though told differently in Matthew 25. And I see the same truth in both. I could show it from Matthew as easily as from this account though with more difficulty because of the mindset with which it is usually approached which is the mindset which is imposed by Calvinism even if the reader does not actually espouse Calvins predestination.

In other words they see the division between the saved and lost, redeemed and sinners, the world and sinners, sheep and goats. This CANNOT be true.

WHY?

Because the saints or the church cannot in any way figure in this judgement, it is impossible. I have argued this on a Calvinist forum full of doctors of theology and linguist experts and they simply cannot throw down the argument, the only thing they could do was ban me, which they did. (:

After the catching up of the church "so shall we ever be with the Lord" be sure of that, there is not the inkling of a chance of our ever being seperated from Him ever again [praise and glory] we have passed over from judgement folk, OF COURSE we have, Jesus has been judged for us on our behalf, He was found guilty on our behalf and He was condemned to die and did actually die on our behalf. God simply cannot re-open that trial. The saints do not figure at that judgement, there is a judgement for the saints the apostles teach that and there will be rewards and gains and losses, but this is not the judgement which determines our eternal destiny, for the saints that has been settled at Calvary.

This Great White Throne Judgement tells it even more plainly, the saints have been reigning with Christ for a thousand years. They were raised first in the first resurrection over them the scripture says clearly and distinctly that the second death has no power what-so-ever. After the thousand years comes the second or general resurrection. These [not being the saints] are judged according to their works and according to whether their names are found in the book of life.

Now christian is not that exactly how you would expect our God to be? perfectly fair and just, not overlooking the good people have done? Will they join us in heaven? I do not believe so, God is going to create a new heaven AND a new earth, well if we are in heaven who will inherit this new earth? "the meek will inherit the earth"

The wicked of the earth will most certainly be turned into hell and their final abode is the lake of fire. But what I have shown above is a manyfold wider mercy than that commonly held even by people who reject predestination.

To clean up Matthew. 25
it opens "when the King shall come in His glory and all His holy angels with Him"

Now you see where the mindset of the Calvinist translators comes in for this word "holy angels" is a translation of the same word used for "saints" only that doesn't figure if the sheep are considered to be the saints so they opted for "holy angels"

Paul makes it clear in writing to the Corinthians "do you not know that the saints are to judge the world?" he teaches that when Jesus comes "He brings us with Him" sure we have been with Him since the rapture, we have reigned with Him for a thousand years. When He comes to judge-we come with Him.

Now Matthew 25 makes sense for He will say to the sheep "in as much as ye did it to one of the least of THESE MY BRETHREN ye did it to Me"

It's not YOUR brethren, these sheep had no recognition of the brethren, they did not know the doctrine of the indwelling Christ.
Jesus will say "come ye blest of MY Father" He is not their Father.
It can only make sense if these sheep are a seperate group from the saints.
*
Therefore brethren I would like to categorically refute this idea [and upon a sound scriptural basis] that billions and billions of souls are going to hell while only a measely few will be saved, let the wicked be turned into hell but God when He comes to judge will judge with equity.

My favourite scripture in the bible is found in 2. Thessalonoians ch.2. Paul says when Jesus comes the dead in Christ are raised first then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds [of shekinah glory] SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD. Oh that makes my heart sing that last bit.

Amen to that.

The Great White Throne Judgement

Revelations 20:4-15

And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgement was given to them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had they recieved his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands.

and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Yes, this is description of the tribulation saints who came to have faith in Christ during the great persecutions.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

These are all those unfaithful who died on Earth, pre-rapture, along with those who went into the tribulation and remained against Christ and were killed by the judgments.

This is the first resurrection, blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

These are those who died in Christ pre-rapture, who reign with Christ during the milliennium.

VERSE 11And I saw a great white throne and Him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead , small and great stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And who-so-ever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Christ (through John) returns again to the topic of all those unfaithful who died on Earth, pre-rapture, along with those who went into the tribulation and remained against Christ and were killed by the judgments.

There is only one last judgement and this judgement corresponds exactly with the account of it though told differently in Matthew 25.

OK. Now we're going into a different event than the Great White Throne judgment. There are two post-rapture judgments of the unfaithful. The Great White Throne judgment, and the sheep and goats judgment. They are separated by 1,000 years. The sheep and goats first, the GWT second.

In other words they see the division between the saved and lost, redeemed and sinners, the world and sinners, sheep and goats. This CANNOT be true.

Except that God's Word in the Bible says it is so.

Because the saints or the church cannot in any way figure in this judgement, it is impossible.

You're absolutely right. The Great White Throne judgment is exclusively for those who went to hades when they died for not accepting Jesus' gift of salvation. You'll know that the ONLY unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus' gift. You die without it, there is no second chance. All you have is a date with Jesus at the Great White Throne and a quick trip into the Lake of Fire.

You're also right that the sheep and goats judgment is not for the church. The sheep are tribulation saints still alive at the end of the 7-year tribulation. The goats are those who survived the judgments during the 7-year tribulation, but who persecuted "my brethren" during that time. When Jesus arrives as the conquerer at the end of the tribulation he ushers the "sheep" into the millennial period, and then casts them into the "everlasting fire."

After the catching up of the church "so shall we ever be with the Lord" be sure of that, there is not the inkling of a chance of our ever being seperated from Him ever again [praise and glory] ...

True. Praise God.

... we have passed over from judgement folk, God simply cannot re-open that trial. The saints do not figure at that judgement, there is a judgement for the saints the apostles teach that and there will be rewards and gains and losses, but this is not the judgement which determines our eternal destiny, for the saints that has been settled at Calvary.

This Great White Throne Judgement tells it even more plainly, the saints have been reigning with Christ for a thousand years. They were raised first in the first resurrection over them the scripture says clearly and distinctly that the second death has no power what-so-ever.

Very true, so far.

After the thousand years comes the second or general resurrection. These [not being the saints] are judged according to their works and according to whether their names are found in the book of life.

True. But, remember, there is no second chance once one dies outside of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Yes, they will be judged at the GWT. But, the verdict has already been determined, and the GWT is merely more of a sentencing process than a judicial one.

Now christian is not that exactly how you would expect our God to be? perfectly fair and just, not overlooking the good people have done?

Yes to the first part. No to the second part. Being "good" is not a ticket into God's presence. Accepting Jesus gift of salvation is all and everything. Being good comes with the fruit of the spirit that we receive upon our being born again.

Will they join us in heaven?

No.

God is going to create a new heaven AND a new earth, well if we are in heaven who will inherit this new earth? "the meek will inherit the earth"

There will be no new Earth per se. Heaven will come down and be on the earth, presided over directly by God. Only those who were the faithful will reside here. Only those completely sinless and without blemish can even look on the face of God, let alone live with Him. So, no, there won't be any of those left during the "New Heaven."

It can only make sense if these sheep are a separate group from the saints.

Yes. The sheep are tribulation saints -- those left behind during the rapture who come to a saving faith during the tribulation.

Therefore brethren I would like to categorically refute this idea [and upon a sound scriptural basis] that billions and billions of souls are going to hell while only a measely few will be saved, ...
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Yes, unfortunately and sadly, billions and billions are going to suffer eternity in the Lake of Fire. God has stated very clearly that there are no second chances when someone dies outside the saving faith of Christ. That means we've got our job cut out for us, doesn't it?

... let the wicked be turned into hell but God when He comes to judge will judge with equity.

Yes. Equal treatment for all the unfaithful. But, the time of mercy has passed, and they must all go to their final punishment.

Amen to that.Yes, this is description of the tribulation saints who came to have faith in Christ during the great persecutions.These are all those unfaithful who died on Earth, pre-rapture, along with those who went into the tribulation and remained against Christ and were killed by the judgments.These are those who died in Christ pre-rapture, who reign with Christ during the milliennium.Christ (through John) returns again to the topic of all those unfaithful who died on Earth, pre-rapture, along with those who went into the tribulation and remained against Christ and were killed by the judgments.OK. Now we're going into a different event than the Great White Throne judgment. There are two post-rapture judgments of the unfaithful. The Great White Throne judgment, and the sheep and goats judgment. They are separated by 1,000 years. The sheep and goats first, the GWT second.Except that God's Word in the Bible says it is so.You're absolutely right. The Great White Throne judgment is exclusively for those who went to hades when they died for not accepting Jesus' gift of salvation. You'll know that the ONLY unpardonable sin is to reject Jesus' gift. You die without it, there is no second chance. All you have is a date with Jesus at the Great White Throne and a quick trip into the Lake of Fire.

You're also right that the sheep and goats judgment is not for the church. The sheep are tribulation saints still alive at the end of the 7-year tribulation.Ã‚Â The goats are those who survived the judgments during the 7-year tribulation, but who persecuted "my brethren" during that time. When Jesus arrives as the conquerer at the end of the tribulation he ushers the "sheep" into the millennial period, and then casts them into the "everlasting fire."True. Praise God.Very true, so far.

After the thousand years comes the second or general resurrection. These [not being the saints] are judged according to their works and according to whether their names are found in the book of life.

True. But, remember, there is no second chance once one dies outside of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Yes, they will be judged at the GWT. But, the verdict has already been determined, and the GWT is merely more of a sentencing process than a judicial one.

Now christian is not that exactly how you would expect our God to be? perfectly fair and just, not overlooking the good people have done?

Yes to the first part. No to the second part. Being "good" is not a ticket into God's presence. Accepting Jesus gift of salvation is all and everything. Being good comes with the fruit of the spirit that we receive upon our being born again.

Will they join us in heaven?

No.

God is going to create a new heaven AND a new earth, well if we are in heaven who will inherit this new earth? "the meek will inherit the earth"

There will be no new Earth per se. Heaven will come down and be on the earth, presided over directly by God. Only those who were the faithful will reside here. Only those completely sinless and without blemish can even look on the face of God, let alone live with Him. So, no, there won't be any of those left during the "New Heaven."

It can only make sense if these sheep are a separate group from the saints.

Yes. The sheep are tribulation saints -- those left behind during the rapture who come to a saving faith during the tribulation.

Therefore brethren I would like to categorically refute this idea [and upon a sound scriptural basis] that billions and billions of souls are going to hell while only a measely few will be saved, ...
[right][snapback]45800[/snapback][/right]

Yes, unfortunately and sadly, billions and billions are going to suffer eternity in the Lake of Fire. God has stated very clearly that there are no second chances when someone dies outside the saving faith of Christ. That means we've got our job cut out for us, doesn't it?

... let the wicked be turned into hell but God when He comes to judge will judge with equity.

Yes. Equal treatment for all the unfaithful. But, the time of mercy has passed, and they must all go to their final punishment.

Dave

*I agree with those part where you agree with me but strongly disagree with those places where you disagree you would probably expect that, the only point I would pick up is your point that we have our job cut out, no my brother if you are correct then the church has already most miserably failed. However I don't think you are correct.*No.1. I do not believe in two judgements, my view is that the S & Gs and the GWT are one and the same.

2. Now you say that the people are judged at the GWT with regard to whether they rejected Christ, Okay I understand that, it is ingrained Christian theology, but the scripture does not say that, it DOES say they will be judged according to their works and whether their names are found in the Lamb's book of life~I am insisting on sticking strictly to the scripture.

Jesus said if one gives so much as a cup of water to one of these [disciples] because they are disciples they shall by no means lose their reward. that at one stroke blurs the black and white alternative.

I wanna tell you something, I love Billy Graham dearly, I think he has been a wonderful servant of the Lord, but I think I would scarcely have been saved myself under his earlier ministry. There are an awful lot of red hotten preachers I hear who I would NEVER have been saved through. I UNDERSTAND why many despise that kind of preaching.

I believe in hell and I will preach it but I would never say to somebody believe [the suggestion being] this moment or go to hell, never say to somebody "you are going to hell" what IS that if it is not judging someone.

On the other side of the coin their are the cold stony formalist churches. People just do not relate to it.

I totally do not accept that anyone gets saved after the church is gone.

Now you say there is no new earth "per se" and I do accept that they are united, never-the-less they are heaven and they are earth, otherwise it would not figure at all, Paul was taken to the third heaven?? what is that? is paradise heaven?There is much of the afterlife about which we know little, will all see God? or will some see Him bye and bye, when Paul says God will be all in all.

Jesus speech to the sheep is very strange indeed if He were talking to saints, these sheep did not know the doctrine of the indwelling Christ, they were not "these My brethren" they were not even "these your brethren" they are a different group altogether Jesus did not say come blessed of your Father or even the Father to them but He said come blessed of My Father.

Is there a scripture that actually says that death is the demarcation for decision making?

Peace

*It is appointed for man once to die and after this the judgement, this is the thrust of the apostolic sermons always in Acts, never be saved or be damned. I am going to stick my neck out a bit, I know full sure that damnation is not hell-fire, it only came to mean that in the 13th century. Most commentators give it the meaning judge with a view to condemn. I have not the education to be able to dispute that but I do dispute it. I think it means simply judge.

Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel...they who believe not shall be judged makes perfect sense to me.

And I trust God that He will judge with equity, how much better if we can be saved from judgement by accepting the judgement passed upon Christ on our behalf.

*It is appointed for man once to die and after this the judgement, this is the thrust of the apostolic sermons always in Acts, never be saved or be damned. I am going to stick my neck out a bit, I know full sure that damnation is not hell-fire, it only came to mean that in the 13th century. Most commentators give it the meaning judge with a view to condemn. I have not the education to be able to dispute that but I do dispute it. I think it means simply judge.

Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel...they who believe not shall be judged makes perfect sense to me.

And I trust God that He will judge with equity, how much better if we can be saved from judgement by accepting the judgement passed upon Christ on our behalf.

And Hi

Thanks for your reply,

Here is one for you...

"For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "" Rom 14:10,11

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2:9-11

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Rom 10:9,10

"For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "" Rom 14:10,11

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2:9-11

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Rom 10:9,10

*The scripture you quote says every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, not only ours which do so now but even the wicked, that will not save them. But if He is Lord He is Lord, He will judge who will be on the right hand and who will be on the left.

You know there are a lot of hell fire preachers who preach it from the safety of a pulpit or from a TV studio or even per chance on a soap-box in the market place but who would not dare to preach it in the way that they do on the factory floor or building site where they have to work every day.

I can look anybody in the eye and say the wicked will be turned into hell, why should they not? christianns will then be trapped into an argument about what defines wicked, they do not see the trap, you know I love to look at Jesus, He could see the traps and He never fell into them, don't play games with the devil, that's what the Apologists did and you end up trying to see how many angels will fit onto a pinhead.

People know if they are wicked or not, preach the good news and they will soon manifest themselves.

*The scripture you quote says every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, not only ours which do so now but even the wicked, that will not save them. But if He is Lord He is Lord, He will judge who will be on the right hand and who will be on the left.

You know there are a lot of hell fire preachers who preach it from the safety of a pulpit or from a TV studio or even per chance on a soap-box in the market place but who would not dare to preach it in the way that they do on the factory floor or building site where they have to work every day.

I can look anybody in the eye and say the wicked will be turned into hell, why should they not? christianns will then be trapped into an argument about what defines wicked, they do not see the trap, you know I love to look at Jesus, He could see the traps and He never fell into them, don't play games with the devil, that's what the Apologists did and you end up trying to see how many angels will fit onto a pinhead.

People know if they are wicked or not, preach the good news and they will soon manifest themselves.

You do understand the the word 'Hell' never appears in scripture?

While there is a concept of destruction, 'eternal hell' was and is an alien concept to Judaism.

Hell is a corruption that is borrowed from Greek mythology...totally pagan.

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matthew 5:29

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Matthew 5:30

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.Matthew 18:9

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Matthew 23:15

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hel Matthew 23:33l

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. Mark 9:45

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell Mark 9:47

If the Great White Throne is for those who went to hell and will be condemned. Who are the goats at the saved throne?

If you answer they are the unsaved sinners, you will have to back that up with scripture because I cannot find one scripture that says goats are unsaved sinners.

And to further it. What are goats on a fire considered once the new covenant has been denied? Goats on a fire in the old covenant was a sin atonement.

So right after the pretrib, we have the saved throne judgement. The goats are throne into hell. Then all that are in hell are brought up for judgement at the end of the tribulation period. So the goats end up in front of two judgment thrones. Why have them in hell for 1,000 years? Fire is a purification process. And in this case it has saving power to burn some 1000 years.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

But is not Christ the only way? Of course if the path is from earth to heaven. But when your path includes hell fire's purification, the path is no longer the same. That is why in the Great White Throne judgment, a possibility for some to enter Heaven is left.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The key to the who thing about a chance at the this judgment to enter heaven hinges on the word: Whosoever. Because if all go to the lake of fire, then implying a chance like this would be considered a deception. God does not use deception. So to make this work on who would be worthy to do this, the only thing to point at in hell are the goats. Everyone else there are unsaved sinners.

Which leads back to the question: Who are the goats? I know the answer but I'm curious if anyone else can figure it out.

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Matthew 5:29And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Matthew 5:30

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.Matthew 18:9"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Matthew 23:15"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hel Matthew 23:33lIf your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. Mark 9:45And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell Mark 9:47

Briefly, because I have limited time right now, here is a (hopefully) short discourse on Matthew's sheep and goats passage.

It is commonly recognized that the best way to understand the Bible is that if the plain sense of the Word makes sense then accept the plain sense. In looking at the plain sense, one should ask: Who is speaking? Who is he speaking to? Where is he speaking? Why does he say that?

In the case of Matthew's sheep and goats this passage arises from a question that the disciples asked Jesus after he told them at the beginning of Chapter 24 that everything they see "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

The disciples asked, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The resulting answer, Matthew 24 and 25, is known as Jesus' Olivet Discourse. It is strictly a description of certain events in the end times. Remember that. The context is the end times.

All of the parables in Matthew 24 and 25 have end times implications. The sheep and goats passage, however, is not a parable. It is a description of something that will actually take place shortly after the end of the 7-year tribulation. Again, it's important to note that the whole theme of Matthew 24 and 25 is the Second Coming of the Lord, end times.

The sheep and goats represent metaphorically real, live people who survived the persecutions and judgments during that seven years. The sheep are gentiles who missed the rapture, but came to the Lord during the tribulation. The goats are gentiles who missed the rapture but remained hardhearted and stiffnecked during the tribulation, and who even persecuted those who refused to take the mark of the beast.

These are real, live people. How do we know this? Throughout the many end times passages it is apparent when God is speaking about those who are resurrected -- the rapture, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Great White Throne Judgment. But, nowhere in the sheep and goats passage does it say these people were resurrected. They are people from all the nations -- people on earth at the time Jesus is speaking of. "Nations" is always used in the Bible to indicate peoples -- usually gentiles.

Remember, plain sense.

The sheep are rewarded for their good treatment of Jesus' brethren during the terrible seven years. The brethren are the Jews. The sheep are given an inheritance into the Kingdom (the millennial 1,000 years of Christ's physical reign on earth).

The goats are punished for their ill treatment of Christ's brethren. They are sent away into everlasting punishment. No cleansing by fire. No second chance. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Done. Finished. Period.

Jesus' sheep and goats judgment is as plain as anything can be in God's Word.

Virtually every single Bible commentator agrees with the interpretation I explained here. There is no ambiguity here. No need for private interpretations using convoluted reasonings to allegorize goats or sheep or fire or cleansing or second chances, which simply does not fit the proper plain sense of God's Word here.

Anyway. Not everyone agrees. But I just wanted to make sure the correct interpretation of sheep and goats gets explained for those who are new to this debate.

While there is a concept of destruction, 'eternal hell' was and is an alien concept to Judaism.

Hell is a corruption that is borrowed from Greek mythology...totally pagan.

Peace

I've looked at universalism and annihilism, I can stand either if they preach salvation and new life at the cross. But there are some hard teachings from Jesus regarding eternal punishment [by whatever name you call it]

I just feel it is never safe to put aside God's word.

The problem is if a false teaching comes into the church [I am thinking of Calvin's predestination] it becomes a playground for the devil. And one deviation seems to lead to another. A similar thing may happen if we neglect a doctrine, it may lead to a further neglect, perhaps the next generation may feel it unneccesary to preach about sin.

No, actually they are not mistranslations; you may want to re-check your reference material, and not just believe liberal mistranslations. As a student of ancient languages, I have studied these (and am currently in post-grad studies), and know both sides of the argument.

What you are experiencing is revision by omission (i.e. getting your information from sources that donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t look at the complete definition, or you yourself arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t accepting the complete definition).

Some good references for you would be StrongÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Exhaustive Concordance, The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon, Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary (etcÃ¢â‚¬Â¦)

The Ã¢â‚¬Å“the word 'Hell' never appears in scriptureÃ¢â‚¬Â argument has been thoroughly debunked, and is only used by those who (for the most part) have not really done their homework.

Briefly, because I have limited time right now, here is a (hopefully) short discourse on Matthew's sheep and goats passage.

It is commonly recognized that the best way to understand the Bible is that if the plain sense of the Word makes sense then accept the plain sense. In looking at the plain sense, one should ask: Who is speaking? Who is he speaking to? Where is he speaking? Why does he say that?

In the case of Matthew's sheep and goats this passage arises from a question that the disciples asked Jesus after he told them at the beginning of Chapter 24 that everything they see "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

The disciples asked, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The resulting answer, Matthew 24 and 25, is known as Jesus' Olivet Discourse. It is strictly a description of certain events in the end times. Remember that. The context is the end times.

All of the parables in Matthew 24 and 25 have end times implications. The sheep and goats passage, however, is not a parable. It is a description of something that will actually take place shortly after the end of the 7-year tribulation. Again, it's important to note that the whole theme of Matthew 24 and 25 is the Second Coming of the Lord, end times.

The sheep and goats represent metaphorically real, live people who survived the persecutions and judgments during that seven years. The sheep are gentiles who missed the rapture, but came to the Lord during the tribulation. The goats are gentiles who missed the rapture but remained hardhearted and stiffnecked during the tribulation, and who even persecuted those who refused to take the mark of the beast.

These are real, live people. How do we know this? Throughout the many end times passages it is apparent when God is speaking about those who are resurrected -- the rapture, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Great White Throne Judgment. But, nowhere in the sheep and goats passage does it say these people were resurrected. They are people from all the nations -- people on earth at the time Jesus is speaking of. "Nations" is always used in the Bible to indicate peoples -- usually gentiles.

Remember, plain sense.

The sheep are rewarded for their good treatment of Jesus' brethren during the terrible seven years. The brethren are the Jews. The sheep are given an inheritance into the Kingdom (the millennial 1,000 years of Christ's physical reign on earth).

The goats are punished for their ill treatment of Christ's brethren. They are sent away into everlasting punishment. No cleansing by fire. No second chance. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Done. Finished. Period.

Jesus' sheep and goats judgment is as plain as anything can be in God's Word.

Virtually every single Bible commentator agrees with the interpretation I explained here. There is no ambiguity here. No need for private interpretations using convoluted reasonings to allegorize goats or sheep or fire or cleansing or second chances, which simply does not fit the proper plain sense of God's Word here.

Anyway. Not everyone agrees. But I just wanted to make sure the correct interpretation of sheep and goats gets explained for those who are new to this debate.

Dave

*Hello Dave, Yes I can see where we agree and where we disagree.Absolutely I believe in taking the plain sense of scripture. But I beg to point out that you have interposed your own private interpretation a little [and it may be the result of studying bible scholars]This may be part of the Olivet discourse, it is reasonable to suppose certainly they relate to eschatological matters, but I feel it is a bit of a stretch to go beyond chapter 24, that is my opinion.But relating to who the sheep and goats are it is certainly your [and others] opinion that these are tribulation people.The scripture says the King shall come in His glory and before Him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS and he shall divide them as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. It is an interpretation to interject that these are only people from the tribulation period.

Moreover I take into consideration that this parable is set forth in quite fulsome detail by the Lord, there was plenty of opportunity for Him to say "during the tribulation" you did these acts of mercy or conversely "ye did it not" there is opportunity here for Him to further charge the goats with not only witholding the neccesities of life but actually being the cause and perpetrators of the desperate plight of "the least of these My brethren" for in the great tribulation or persecution as it should be, the brethren will be "hated of all men for My name's sake" so that even brother will deliver up brother, parents their children etc [how awful is this persecution to be?]

No, actually they are not mistranslations; you may want to re-check your reference material, and not just believe liberal mistranslations. As a student of ancient languages, I have studied these (and am currently in post-grad studies), and know both sides of the argument.

What you are experiencing is revision by omission (i.e. getting your information from sources that donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t look at the complete definition, or you yourself arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t accepting the complete definition).

Some good references for you would be StrongÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Exhaustive Concordance, The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon, Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary (etcÃ¢â‚¬Â¦)

The Ã¢â‚¬Å“the word 'Hell' never appears in scriptureÃ¢â‚¬Â argument has been thoroughly debunked, and is only used by those who (for the most part) have not really done their homework.

WORD up

Ron,

God bless you man...but I also took New Testament Greek 30 years ago...I read from the Nestle-Aland...as best I can.

I have all of the references that you mentioned, although I would never use the KJV, it is a corrupted text.