His post condemning the popes to hell is still there for all the world to see.

It was later modified to condemn me to hell, as well. If you're going to lie and claim that we removed the post, you might want to make sure the proof that we didn't isn't still sitting in public view.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Yep, this must be a hallucination. RCs by truth assume to kiss Pope's shoe. I'll hopefully never try that, not even for once.

No one will ever ask you to kiss the Pope's shoe... but we ask that you don't trample, spit upon, or shoot it, either. The part of the post that was removed was another "hellfire condemnation," ironically just after you claimed to "not judge" RC's.

It's chilling to see the media coverage about the events, and unbelievable messages about the origin of diamonds, going that far to claim that they were actually deposited by the arms dealer as a guarantee for delivery

General Zagorec's brief, for example, was to circumvent the UN arms embargo. In the case he is now best known for, he is accused of stealing diamonds that were brought to the defence ministry by a foreign arms dealer as his guarantee that he would deliver an anti-aircraft system to Croatia. Croatian media have also speculated that the jewels in question had, in fact, been stolen from Croatian Jews in the Second World War and kept in secret treasure vaults belonging to the Catholic Church for use in needy times for the Croat nation.

Mr Zagorec's trial is expected to go ahead. The missing jewels were allegedly used as collateral in an arms deal at a time when Croatia had difficulty raising international loans. Reports in the Croatian media suggest they were donated by wealthy Croats, and even the Catholic church, as a contribution to the war effort.

Quite an effort to cover the bloody hands of Va... err, he..., err, ... a tenderly-friend-of-some-owning-this-board-whose-shoe-I-wouldn't-be-required-to-kiss-in-case-I-ve-gone-mad-and-converted-from-Orthodoxy.

I'm still waiting Monk Vasily and LBK to answer my questions.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

And we're still waiting to see proof that your outrageously loony interpretation of a news article, an interpretation that changes diamonds taken from Jews into gold extracted from the teeth of Serbs, has even a shred of substance to it.

Sorry, but this is as inane as those who believe the US Government was behind the 911 attacks

Could you kindly point to what exactly is inane? Namely:

a) that the diamonds were given by late Cardinal Kuharic to late President Tudjman?

b) that handover hasn't been covered by appropriate documents required for accounting?

c) that they were used as collateral for purchase of armaments back in '90 and '91?

d) that, due to b), once they were received back by Croatia after the payment of armaments, the accused General was able to take them from safe, because they were nowhere recorded?

e) that, because of b), the only logical explanation is that they came from Vatican, where they were placed in the first place through rat lines? Assuming:

e.1) there were no appropriate documents for handover from Vatican to Cardinal Kuharic, otherwise Kuharic couldn't hand them over without proper documentation as described under b)?

e.2) that they would have been recorded in some documents by Croatian state if there were some documentation about handover, and not hidden in pockets and safes?

e.3) that the only logical explanation for lack of documents is that the diamonds were hidden for half a century and not recorded in any books?

All of the above are general places and published by Croatian press. Well, except e.1), that nobody dared to pronounce, but is obvious.

Looking forward to your clarification,

1. Can you provide outside documentation, such as these articles published by the Croatian press, to substantiate the allegations made above?

2. Re. Your twice-stated phrase, "The only logical explanation is...": How often it is that right after I utter this conclusion, I find that the REAL explanation is something totally different, and that I had been previously blinded to this!

If that's you adding tags with messages condemning Pope John Paul II to hell, stop it. They have nothing to do with this topic, and they're inflammatory. (I've already deleted the tags that appeared earlier.)

Yes, the holocaust of the Jews and the use of their diamonds to accrue wealth for their persecutors is horrific.

Well, my publ... err friend I did present proofs that the diamonds were taken from Orthodox, with 99% probability. All what's required for such a conclusion is knowledge of history and reading the facts logically, though I can't exclude 1% (or less) possibility that they are actually of Jews or non-Orthodox Gypsies.

Your argument to oppose it is relying on Croatian journalists' speculation that they belonged to Jews. And, of course, I'd be foolish to expect logic and knowledge of history either from you or from PtA.

Once we have clarified that, will you continue to denigrate the thread?

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

That's why we have the trace of diamonds only, that were transferred from Vatican to Croatia, back in '90 and 91, to finance war for expulsion of Serbs (achieved in '95) as a final stance of genocide committed between '41-'45, according to the proclamation of Mile Budak (kill-off one third, expel one third, convert one third of them).

OK. I still don't see your "proof" that the diamonds came from Orthodox Christians with "99% probability"....but anyway.....

Disclaimer: Nothing I wrote here should be construed as an attempt to prove anything to PeterTheAleut or ozGeorge.

About whether diamonds belonged to Jews or to Orthodox (Serbs or Gypsies)

There is a trend to emphasize on Jewish victimhood only and to downplay victimhood of others. That quite applies to Jasenovac and Independent State of Croatia entirely. All what's required is to check statistics for Independent State of Croatia, official or unofficial, to see that number of Serbian victims outnumbered together Jews and Gypsies (both Orthodox Christians Gypsies and other) approximately per rate 9,5 : 1. Search google for yourself.

a) there are a number of victims in a rural, non-populated area, vithout visible sign of military fortification;

b) there is a payssant woman, standing there, looking at the bodies;

Since there were no Jews living in large groups in non-populated areas, they must have been captured and transported there. If they were transported, it should be a convenient place for killing. If that's so, what does that woman do, standing there? Is that a Jewess, wearing payssant dress, that was captured and brought there along with the victims? How come she isn't killed?

There is an obvious explanation. The bodies are from nearby villages, and the woman is looking for her husband, son, father, relatives and neighbors. And, by their and her clothing I conclude they are neither Jews, nor Gypsies, but Serbs. Convenently turned into Jewish victims either by ignorance or by malice by a Danish site educating on holocaust.

About the spoiling attitude

While, of course, we are not to mention what has been done to us, not to be perceived rude and unforgiving. Not to spoil ecumenistic love.

So, this image

of Orthodox priest in Drakulic, where the butchery was directly supervised by a Franciscan monk from Petricevac Monastery (that monastery where Woytila have had Orthodox Bishops from Bosnia alligned by occupiers when he was paying a visit in fraterly "love") Fra Miroslav Majstorovic-Filipovic a.k.a. Fra Sotona, before he became commander of Jasenovac death-camp, whom personally sliced one girl there, as he confessed as his trial, must be shred from interned, just likethe entire site dedicated to it was burried down, probably by quisling regime in Belgrade, to please their masters. Why would couple of hundreds thousands Orthodox victims stand as an obstacle to "re-union"?

There is a rumor about a special promise granted to us, Pope-not-loving-Serbs, that we will not have to kiss his shoe, neither we'll have to sing "Heil Zizi" aligned with other Orthodox. Others will do it on our behalf.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

The Holocaust survivors must try to prove that the Vatican Bank laundered the proceeds of the Ustasha genocide in Croatia in a similar manner. There is only one known witness to the Vatican and Franciscan money laundering: former US Army Counterintelligence Special Agent William Gowen. According to his deposition, Vatican official Fr. Krunoslav Draganovic admitted to Gowen that he received up to ten truckloads of loot in 1946 at the Franciscan controlled Croatian Confraternity of San Girolamo in Rome. Gowen also testified that the leader of the treasure convoy, Ustasha Colonel Ivan Babic, boasted to Gowen of using British uniforms and trucks to move the gold from Northern Italy to Rome. As for the Ustasha Treasury’s ultimate destination, Gowen concurred that it could have gone nowhere but the Vatican Bank. [16]

The Vatican Bank and the Franciscans have demanded that Gowen's testimony not be published, but a copy was obtained by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz which posted an online article in January 2006. It uses the evidence of this former American counterintelligence agent to accuse Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, of involvement in the laundering of money for the ratlines. According to the Gowen, a top Vatican official, Monsignor Draganovic, admitted being the mastermind behind the smuggling and deposit of the Ustasha Treasury at the Vatican bank. Draganovic, who was charged with overseeing Croatian affairs in Rome, reported directly to Montini. [17]

So, in spite of the accurate witness about the destination of Usasa loot, and in spite of clear reference about the diamons been handed over by late Cardinal Kuharic to late Croatian President Tudjman, I'm supposed to believe that the diamonds, unlike other loot, were deposited in "secret box" inside Croatia, or given by an arms-dealear as a collateral that he will deliver the arms in violation of UN arms embargo!

(Should I even dare thinking this, unless I'm able to convince PtA and ozGeorge, in all their ignorance and malice?!?)

Re.: possibility these are really taken from Jews, I don't deny it. There is a possibility, but very low one.

Of course, I should not pay the attention to the fact that there is only one witness appearing, while all the other ones are burried safely during the decades of systematic cover-up.

I'm at a loss whom is annoyed more - Vatican, the vanishing Empire that allied with Vatican, their puppets among Serbian government, or ecumenistic Orthodox?

Well, unlike all the others, the only chance I kiss a hand, vearing a ring made of golden teeth of Jasenovac victims, would be a hand of Orthodox bishop who got the finger from Roman Pope. AFAIK, there is only one such among Serbian Bishops until present.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

I'm sorry to say that I am ignorant when it comes to Serbian history and the plight of the Serbs. Please know that my heart goes out to every Serbian on our OC.net who has suffered, and whose family and friends have suffered. I am slowly learning what has happened, but little of the real history made it into my history classes or into mainstream media, so I've had to learn where to look (any suggestions of places to read would be greatly appreciated).

As one of Greek heritage (and I'm sure many others on OC.net can attest to this as well), I can sympathize to some extent, as I have grown up with the stories of the atrocities committed by the Turks on the Greeks. Of course these are a little farther removed, as they were longer ago. Every time I hear a story about the oppression (for lack of a better word) that the Ecumenical Patriarchate and His All Holiness Bartholomew suffer at the hands of the Turkish government, it is difficult for me to remember the very things that I talk about on this board-- love, humility, forgiveness. I know that there are many whose opinion of His All Holiness is not so great, but that is a topic for a different thread. For the sake of making my point, it wouldn't matter if the EP was Bartholomew or anyone else, the Turkish government would still work against him. It is a constant challenge for me to overcome the very personal feelings I have of anger and hurt at how they treat him (as my husband and I both have a great love and admiration for him-- my husband had the pleasure of meeting him and was touched by his love and humility). It is a challenge... and his suffering is political and can't compare to the atrocities committed against the Serbs and the Greeks. So, I can't even imagine what a deep and personal wound the Serbian Orthodox must feel.

That being said, I am, and probably always will be, in favor of ecumenism. As I stated on other threads, I think that, no matter what those of other faiths (even Christian faiths) have done to us, we are charged by Christ to forgive, to love, and to spread His Gospel. I understand that with ecumenism comes some difficult issues-- both doctrinal and historical. But I believe that with Christ, all things are possible, and we will overcome them so that they may come home to Orthodoxy some day. Respectfully, I don't think it is fair to condemn all Orthodox who believe in ecumenism because of certain atrocities committed by specific people to specific people (if I am misunderstanding and this was not the sentiment expressed, please feel free to correct me). Nor do I believe in giving up on anyone, be they Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, or even Turkish Muslims. I believe that Christ wouldn't give up on them, and neither should I.

Forgive me a sinner.

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

(Should I even dare thinking this, unless I'm able to convince PtA and ozGeorge, in all their ignorance and malice?!?)

It's not that I don't know what you're talking about or that I don't believe you. I just don't see why you even need to bring this up on our discussion forum. Do you honestly think that your continued efforts to repeat the litany of atrocities committed against you and your people will contribute ANYTHING for our salvation? What happened to "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"?

May God forgive, and I forgive, though I don't have anything to forgive you, since you were speaking honestly and in good intentions. I'm sure you are wonderful presbytera, and may God allow you grow even better.

Forgive me, a sinner, for everything, specially for eruptive tone you've been hearing/reading these days.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

^ The big question, though: Is Monk Vasyl calling inane belief in the historicity of the Croat genocide of Serbs, as you seem to perceive, or is he calling inane orthodoxlurker's particular conspiracy theory regarding gold/diamonds being extracted from Serbian teeth and invested by the Vatican?

Except that I never said that the diamonds were extracted from "Serbian teeth" - what about "conspirativeness" of a "theory" that it actually was a Vatican investment? Or am I dealing with some other PtA now? Will there be enough honesty in any of them to answer?

Who is speaking falsehood and who isn't, PtA? Who is conspiracy theorist and who isn't? Eh?

Whom is asked to forget what he knows, while others will remember what they know? Eh, PtA?

Whom was looking at the tags of this thread for days, reading: "conspiracy theory", "hate", "non-traditional_Orthodoxy"? And that was quite O.K. with mods, unlike some other tags? Eh, PtA?

I realize this isn't the subject you love to hear. So, here is my proposal: Change the rules of the board. Limit it to Orthodox inhabitants of English-speaking world. Or to Western world. Or to ecumenists. Or to all but Serbs. Or whatever.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

So because no one takes your half-baked conspiracies seriously, we should ban you from participating? If you want to be barred from posting here, just post something obscene and be done with it. Alternatively, you can just choose not to post here. However, just because your conspiracy theories are stupid doesn't mean we're going to restrict membership here to keep you out.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

So because no one takes your half-baked conspiracies seriously, we should ban you from participating? If you want to be barred from posting here, just post something obscene and be done with it. Alternatively, you can just choose not to post here. However, just because your conspiracy theories are stupid doesn't mean we're going to restrict membership here to keep you out.

The following photos provide a pictorial glimpse of Hitler, how his Nazis mixed religion with government, and the support for Hitler by the Protestant and Catholic Churches in Germany. In, no way, does this gallery of photos intend to support Nazism or anti-Semitism, but instead, intends to warn against them.

(TV Photo from History Channel's"Hitler's Lost Plan," aired 18 April 2005) (Photo source: The Hitler No One Knows: 100 Pictures of the Life of the Führer, by Heinrich Hoffmann) Hitler With Whip (acting like 'Jesus')

Hitler's close friend, Dietrich Eckart, told of overhearing Hitler showing off to a lady by denouncing Berlin in extravagant terms: ". . . the luxury, the perversion, the iniquity, the wanton display and the Jewish materialism disgusted me so thoroughly that I was almost beside myself. I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when he came to his Father's Temple and found the money changers." Eckart described Hitler as "brandishing his whip and exclaimed that it was his mission to descend upon the capital like a Christ and scourge the corrupt."

And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables. --John 2:14-15 (Note, a scourge of small cords describe a whip.)

SMOKING GUN! Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935 On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."

(Source: Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

(see also USHMM)

The Fuhrer in Franken

Adolf Hitler (center) at the monument for the war dead in Franken Germany. According to Ray Cowdery, Hitler rarely missed an opportunity to visit war memorials, even when a photographer was not present.

Nazi Christmas (Some people seem to think that Hitler banned Christmas, but at no time did he ever ban Christmas or any other Christian holiday.)

Autobahn workers as guests of Hitler in the Berlin Sportpalast at Christmas in 1938. Note the Christmas trees on the right.(Source: calvin.edu) Hitler celebrating Christmas with his soldiers.(Source: calvin.edu)

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.

The full text of the concordat appears on the Concordat Watch website. (click here to see the text).

Hitler's Brown Army attending and leaving church services. These photos were published by Nazis during Hitler's reign.(Source: Das Braune Heer: mit einem geleitwort von Adolf Hitler [translation: The Brown Army: with a foreword by Adolf Hitler], Photos by Heinrich Hoffmann)

A Nazi flag flies in front of the Cologne Cathedral, 1937 (Source: USHMM)

Hitler Oath:

I swear by God,this holy oath,to the Führer of the German Reich and people.Adolf Hitler...

One must not forget that Germany represented the most Christianized country in the world in the 1930s and 40s. Nazi Christian soldiers died as Protestants and Catholics and their grave markers testified to their religion.

Most wars are justified on religious grounds. Of course if a soldier felt uneasy about slaughtering others, they could always turn to a chaplain who would then patiently explain to them that killing is allowed by God and about the righteous morality of war. He might then give a few Biblical examples of God ordained killings. And then he might tell them that Jesus will forgive them and send them to Heaven if they should happen to die.

Nazi funeral(Source: Third Reich Depot)

According to the source, this period photo comes from the SS Heimwehr Danzig Funeral/Festivities for Fallen SS Soldiers of the "Battle of Westerplatte" that occured in Poland in 1939.

Franciscan friars gathered around some German soldiers (Source: USHMM)

An Archbishop with the Nazis

Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, head of the Diplomatic Corps, attending the Nuremburg Party Rally in September 1933.

According to Dr. Paul O'Shea, Orsenigo, as Dean of the Corps, it was the Nuncio's role to lead the Corps at all major government functions. After 1935 Orsenigo did not attend major government propaganda displays.

(Photo source: A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen) [Note, Goldhagen incorrectly attributes this photo to Cardinal Faulhaber.]

Cardinal Bertram in the funeral procession for Bishop Bares, Berlin, 7 March 1935

As a chairman of the German bishop conference the Breslauer Cardinal Bertram plays a crucial role in shaping the attitude of the German bishops in relation to the National Socialist state.

Note the Catholic Chi-Rho Cross to the right of the Nazi flag. Chi and Rho are the first two letters of the Greek word for Christ. The Chi Rho Cross, or warrior's cross, originated from the monogram of Roman Emperor Constantine. How fitting it appears next to a swastika.

Following the death of Berlin's Bishop Bares, Pope Pius XI unexpectedly selects Konrad Graf von Preysing, a little-known Eichstatt bishop, as bishop of Berlin. Berlin, the region for which he is responsible, now also includes the center of the National Socialist power structure and so requires a high degree of political skill from its ecclesiastical leader.

(Photo source: Gedenkstätte Deutscher Widerstand)

Priests giving the Hitler salute

Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.

(Source: A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen)

Ludwig Muller, a Nazi sympathizer, and a candidate of Hitler, was elected to the position of Reich Bishop in 1933 as Hitler attempted to unite regional Protestant churches under Nazi control. Hitler did not practice separation of Church & State.

Although Hitler had problems with the Catholic Church and eventually wanted to replace Catholicism with his brand of Christianity, the very fact that Hitler wanted a united German Church proves that he supported Christianity.

Berlin, Germany, November 17, 1933.

(Source: USHMM)

This autographed portrait of Muller shows him wearing the NSDAP-Hoheitsabzeichen (Nazi Eagle party badge) and Feldschnalle (ribbons).

(Click image for an enlarged view)

(Source: sent by email from Gregers Forssling)

Reich Bishop Ludwig Muller, Berlin, 1934

(Photo source: Gedenkstätte Deutscher Widerstand)

Mass meeting of the German Christian Movement 13 Nov.1933 A radical wing of German Lutheranism and the main Protestant branch supporting Nazi ideology, the German Christian Movement reconciled Christian doctrine with German nationalism and antisemitism.

(Source: Museum of Tolerance)

Investiture of Reich Church Bishop, 1933

Women in traditional dresses joined Nazis at the investiture of Ludwig Muller as Reich Church Bishop. Müller praised the concept of "one mighty, all-embracing German people's church."

(Source: Museum of Tolerance)

Deutsche Christen (German Christians)

The Deutsche Christen (DC) became the voice of Nazi ideology within the Evangelical Church (the Religious Right of their day) and approved by Hitler. They proposed a church "Aryan paragraph" to prevent "non-Aryans" from becoming ministers or religious teachers. Most church leaders solidly supported the "Judenmission." Only a very few number of Christians opposed Nazism such as the "Confessing Christians" (a Church movement not recognized by the Protestant orthodoxy) headed by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. The support of Nazism by the majority of German Christians and German Christian leaders shows the danger of mixing religion with government. The photo on the left shows Christian worshippers of Christ and Nazism on the march in front of the Berlin Cathedral. SS guards stand at attention. The head of the march shows members in party and SA uniforms while pastors follow in the rear. Note the flags with the Christian cross with the swastika in the middle (also described as the Double Cross). To see a movie trailer about the Deutsche Christen, from the documentary film, "Theologians Under Hitler," click here. (Photo sources: unknown)

Deutsche Christen (German Christians)

SA storm troopers with placards of the "German Christians," Berlin, July 1933.

On July 14, 1933, Hitler's government approves a new charter for the Protestant church. With massive intervention by the NSDAP, the church elections scheduled only a short time later result in a resounding victory for the "German Christians." Hitler himself appeals to all Protestant Christians in a radio speech on the eve of the election to vote for the "German Christians." With its slogan "church must remain church,"

(Source: Gedenkstätte Deutscher Widerstand)

Presidium of the "German Christians," Berlin, November 13, 1933

The "German Christians" desired to achieve absolute organizational and ideological conformity between the Protestant church and the National Socialist state. Following their triumphant success in the Protestant church elections in July 1933 and the election of Ludwig Müller to the office of Reich bishop, they feel they have reached the zenith of their power over church policy in the autumn of 1933.

(Source: Gedenkstätte Deutscher Widerstand)

National Bishop Friedrich Coch giving a Hitler greeting in Dresden, 10 December 1933

Dresden pastor Friedrich Coch is one of the leading men of the "German Christians" in Saxony. The NSDAP's Gau consultant for church matters since 1932, he is elected to the office of state bishop by the "Brown Synod" in August 1933.

You do realize that that Cross you just posted is a gif picture don't you? So you can't possibly be "deprived" of posting images now, can you?But clearly, you're not in a state to receive any logical correction.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 09:18:47 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Photos showing the Christianity of Hitler and his Nazi's and the involvement of priests with Nazism.

Brate,

We don't need to reheat the tripe that the atheists serve on the links between Christianity and Nazism. The site you link makes no distinction between us and the Vatican: for instance the Chi-Rho is just an Orthodox symbol, often found in icons (mostly in medalions carried by angels, why I'm not sure), and in icons of the vision of Constantine.

Some of the Prostestansts and the Vatican's priests collaborated with the Nazis. Others did not (e.g. one who went on to become John Paul II), and plenty of Jews contradict the image of Pius as "Hitler's Pope," including the former chief rabbi of Rome, who took the name of Eugenio in honor of Pius' baptismal name. The same with the Orthodox. Some, like the Churches of Serbia and Bulgaria, fought the Nazis on every front. Others, like some Romanians, joined forces with the Nazis.

I agree that the Vatican has a lot of explaining to do concerning Croatia, both WWII and in disintegrating Yugoslavia. But we don't need to go off on tangeants that lead nowhere good while arguing that case.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As difficult as it may be to comprehend, anyone who has an ax to grind against Roman Catholics needs to drop that ax NOW!!

For in failing to drop the ax, one also fails to obey Christ's instructions to deny himself, lift up his cross and follow Him. (Mark 8:34-38)!!

Vengeance is a passion originating from Satan. To walk as Children of Light, one has to put aside the darkness of revenge. Our Holy Martyrs suffered far worse than the Serbs under the Ustashi, the Greeks under the Turks, the Arabs under the Muslims, the Russians under the Mongols/Tartars, the British Clergy under William the Conqueror, and so on....

As difficult as it may be to comprehend, anyone who has an ax to grind against Roman Catholics needs to drop that ax NOW!!

For in failing to drop the ax, one also fails to obey Christ's instructions to deny himself, lift up his cross and follow Him. (Mark 8:34-38)!!

Vengeance is a passion originating from Satan. To walk as Children of Light, one has to put aside the darkness of revenge. Our Holy Martyrs suffered far worse than the Serbs under the Ustashi, the Greeks under the Turks, the Arabs under the Muslims, the Russians under the Mongols/Tartars, the British Clergy under William the Conqueror, and so on....

After all the info that has been presented, all the websites already given (and there are more) I can provide. One can still have the audacity to attribute it all to an 'axe to grind' is beyond my comprehension! The reason we study history is in the hope that by study them, past atrocities will not occur again. And what we are discussing here took place less than seventy years ago!

Sometimes we Orthodox are our own worst enemies!

By their deeds thay shall be known!

Orthodoc

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

After all the info that has been presented, all the websites already given (and there are more) I can provide. One can still have the audacity to attribute it all to an 'axe to grind' is beyond my comprehension!

Using History as a guide - if the nation of Israel was created as a consequence of the Holocaust, what do Orthodox Christians wish to gain by the atrocities committed by Roman Catholics. If the Kingdom of Heaven is an audacity, what else do our Serbian friends want to see if not the literal "an eye for an eye?"

The reason we study history is in the hope that by study them, past atrocities will not occur again. And what we are discussing here took place less than seventy years ago!

The Great Depression is repeating before our eyes in a greatly condensed time frame than the original. Out of the first Great Depression came the above atrocities and atrocities on a far worse scale are likely to come out of this Great Depression.

After all the info that has been presented, all the websites already given (and there are more) I can provide. One can still have the audacity to attribute it all to an 'axe to grind' is beyond my comprehension!

Using History as a guide - if the nation of Israel was created as a consequence of the Holocaust, what do Orthodox Christians wish to gain by the atrocities committed by Roman Catholics. If the Kingdom of Heaven is an audacity, what else do our Serbian friends want to see if not the literal "an eye for an eye?"

The reason we study history is in the hope that by study them, past atrocities will not occur again. And what we are discussing here took place less than seventy years ago!

The atrocities were committed by Roman Catholics against Orthodox. The slogan of the Utashie regarding the Orthodox Serbs were that -One third were to be converted, one third to be exioled, and one third to be killed.

The Great Depression is repeating before our eyes in a greatly condensed time frame than the original. Out of the first Great Depression came the above atrocities and atrocities on a far worse scale are likely to come out of this Great Depression.

To say the Ustashe was supported by the Catholic Church is a bit much. Certainly some Catholics were members and supporters, including some clergy, but that can hardly be claimed as official sanction by the Catholic Church. The same claim can be made about some Orthodox in Romania and Bulgaria which were part of the Axis. Can I therefore conclude the Orthodox Church supported the Axis? Of course not. It is ridiculous claims like these that make it appear people have axes to grind.

To say the Ustashe was supported by the Catholic Church is a bit much. Certainly some Catholics were members and supporters, including some clergy, but that can hardly be claimed as official sanction by the Catholic Church. The same claim can be made about some Orthodox in Romania and Bulgaria which were part of the Axis. Can I therefore conclude the Orthodox Church supported the Axis? Of course not. It is ridiculous claims like these that make it appear people have axes to grind.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Then how come the Vatican still won't open it's archives regarding this period of history? And how come so many Utashe members who were also Catholic priests ended up in South America (Argentia) with Vatican passports?

--------------

December 6, 2006

Letter to the EditorThe New York Times

Dear Editor:

Arrogantly Nicholas Wood's article, "Unscrambling the History of a Nazi Camp" was like handing Mr. Wood an egg beater as he did more scrambling than many Holocaust deniers. Calling this a "Nazi Camp" is a misleading distortion of the facts. Jasenovac was a Croatian Death Camp run by Croatian Nazi collaborators who murdered their own neighbors. Your headline implies that this was another German Concentration Camp.

In my 1997 book Jasenovac Then and Now: A Conspiracy of Silence, I document dozens of eye witness testimonies which place the number of victims at Jasenovac at well over 400,000 as early as 1942, including the testimonies of a number of German officers. Croatian revisionists who now place the number of dead as low as 40,000 or to an insulting high of 97,000 imply that there were no atrocities committed against the Serbs and Jews for the remaining 3 years of the war? There were only 87 survivors of the Jasenovac Concentration Camp, named the "Auschwitz of the Balkans" by most historians. These survivors place the number of dead in excess of 800,000.

One of those survivors was Antun Miletich, a Croatian. Here is his 1948 testimony: "There is not a pen capable of describing the horror and terror of the atmosphere at Jasenovac. It surpasses any human fantasy. Imagine Hell, the Inquisition, a terror more dreadful than any that ever before existed anywhere, run by bloodthirsty wild animals whose most hidden and disgusting instinct had come to the surface in a way never before seen in human beings—and still you have not said enough."

The Jasenovac system of Croatian camps also included a camp for children run by Catholic nuns who used toxic soda to save bullets. They put to death over 100,000 Serbian children under the age of ten years. There are hundreds of documents to attest to these hideous crimes. There are countless documents that also attest to the fact that 743 Roman Catholic priests were members of the Ustashi and personally murdered Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. Jasenovac was for a time, run by Fr. Filipovic-Majstorovic, a Catholic priest who admitted to killing "40,000 Serbs with his own hands." The 40,000 figure was used in 1991 by the late Croatian president, Franjo Tudjman, who was quoted in the Jerusalem Post on December, 1991 as saying, "I am a doubly lucky man, my wife is neither Serbian nor Jewish." His insistence that "only 40,000 Serbs perished at Jasenovac" exposes the level of cover up of this genocide by the Croatian people.

Fr. Petar Brzica, a Catholic priest and camp guard at Jasenovac was nicknamed "King of the Killers." In a contest on August 29, 1942 to see who could kill the most Serbs in one night Fr. Brzica won by slitting the throats of 1,350 Serbs.The 743 Roman Catholic priests who participated in the killing of tens of thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies and the running of Jasenovac escaped Europe through the "Vatican Ratline" run by Fr. Draganovich, a Croatian Catholic priest who helped morons like Clause Barbe escape from Europe. Those Catholic priests escaped to Argentina where they also escaped justice. I am the first plaintiff in a class action law suit against the Vatican Bank to recover $100 million in damages for the Vatican's participation in these war crimes and money laundering the proceeds from their Serb, Jewish and Roma victims. Vatican lawyers have three times tried to get this case thrown out of court. The Supreme court has rejected their claims.William Dorich

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Orthodoc

« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 07:15:41 PM by Orthodoc »

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Arrogantly Nicholas Wood's article, "Unscrambling the History of a Nazi Camp" was like handing Mr. Wood an egg beater as he did more scrambling than many Holocaust deniers. Calling this a "Nazi Camp" is a misleading distortion of the facts. Jasenovac was a Croatian Death Camp run by Croatian Nazi collaborators who murdered their own neighbors. Your headline implies that this was another German Concentration Camp.

In my 1997 book Jasenovac Then and Now: A Conspiracy of Silence, I document dozens of eye witness testimonies which place the number of victims at Jasenovac at well over 400,000 as early as 1942, including the testimonies of a number of German officers. Croatian revisionists who now place the number of dead as low as 40,000 or to an insulting high of 97,000 imply that there were no atrocities committed against the Serbs and Jews for the remaining 3 years of the war? There were only 87 survivors of the Jasenovac Concentration Camp, named the "Auschwitz of the Balkans" by most historians. These survivors place the number of dead in excess of 800,000.

One of those survivors was Antun Miletich, a Croatian. Here is his 1948 testimony: "There is not a pen capable of describing the horror and terror of the atmosphere at Jasenovac. It surpasses any human fantasy. Imagine Hell, the Inquisition, a terror more dreadful than any that ever before existed anywhere, run by bloodthirsty wild animals whose most hidden and disgusting instinct had come to the surface in a way never before seen in human beings—and still you have not said enough."

The Jasenovac system of Croatian camps also included a camp for children run by Catholic nuns who used toxic soda to save bullets. They put to death over 100,000 Serbian children under the age of ten years. There are hundreds of documents to attest to these hideous crimes. There are countless documents that also attest to the fact that 743 Roman Catholic priests were members of the Ustashi and personally murdered Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. Jasenovac was for a time, run by Fr. Filipovic-Majstorovic, a Catholic priest who admitted to killing "40,000 Serbs with his own hands." The 40,000 figure was used in 1991 by the late Croatian president, Franjo Tudjman, who was quoted in the Jerusalem Post on December, 1991 as saying, "I am a doubly lucky man, my wife is neither Serbian nor Jewish." His insistence that "only 40,000 Serbs perished at Jasenovac" exposes the level of cover up of this genocide by the Croatian people.

Fr. Petar Brzica, a Catholic priest and camp guard at Jasenovac was nicknamed "King of the Killers." In a contest on August 29, 1942 to see who could kill the most Serbs in one night Fr. Brzica won by slitting the throats of 1,350 Serbs.

The 743 Roman Catholic priests who participated in the killing of tens of thousands of Serbs, Jews and Gypsies and the running of Jasenovac escaped Europe through the "Vatican Ratline" run by Fr. Draganovich, a Croatian Catholic priest who helped morons like Clause Barbe escape from Europe. Those Catholic priests escaped to Argentina where they also escaped justice.

I am the first plaintiff in a class action law suit against the Vatican Bank to recover $100 million in damages for the Vatican's participation in these war crimes and money laundering the proceeds from their Serb, Jewish and Roma victims. Vatican lawyers have three times tried to get this case thrown out of court. The Supreme court has rejected their claims.

William Dorich

===============

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Then how come the Vatican still won't open it's archives regarding this period of history? And how come so many Utashe members who were also Catholic priests ended up in South America (Argentia) with Vatican passports?

The Vatican is quite stingy with its archive concerning all periods. They won't even let me in to take a look. As to passports, do you really think the Pope oversees things like passport issuing? I am sure their is quite a bit of bureacratic corruption at the Vatican, up to and including Croatian members of the diplomatic corps issuing passports to Croatian war criminals. There was the Vatican bank scandal a few years back as well. None of this implies the Pope or the Catholic Church at large supported the Ustashe or the war crimes they committed. Which I should point out they also commited against Byzantine Catholics of the Eparchy of Krizevci. Croats worshiping like thier dread enemies the Serbs I suppose was the reasoning on that one.

Fr. Deacon Lance

PS The Supreme Court has no ability to judge or pass sentence on a sovereign nation, which the Vatican City State is.

As difficult as it may be to comprehend, anyone who has an ax to grind against Roman Catholics needs to drop that ax NOW!!

For in failing to drop the ax, one also fails to obey Christ's instructions to deny himself, lift up his cross and follow Him. (Mark 8:34-38)!!

Vengeance is a passion originating from Satan. To walk as Children of Light, one has to put aside the darkness of revenge. Our Holy Martyrs

Who's "our?"

Quote

suffered far worse than the Serbs under the Ustashi, the Greeks under the Turks, the Arabs under the Muslims, the Russians under the Mongols/Tartars, the British Clergy under William the Conqueror, and so on....

I don't understand who's being compared here.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

After all the info that has been presented, all the websites already given (and there are more) I can provide. One can still have the audacity to attribute it all to an 'axe to grind' is beyond my comprehension!

Using History as a guide - if the nation of Israel was created as a consequence of the Holocaust, what do Orthodox Christians wish to gain by the atrocities committed by Roman Catholics. If the Kingdom of Heaven is an audacity, what else do our Serbian friends want to see if not the literal "an eye for an eye?"

Funny you should mention that: when I was in Yugoslavia ('87) they had the pitchforks the Ustase modified so that they could poke out both eyes at once of Serb.

The reason we study history is in the hope that by study them, past atrocities will not occur again. And what we are discussing here took place less than seventy years ago!

When the newly proclaimed (and immediately Vatican recognized) independent Croatia starting renaming streets and public squares after Ustase, banning Cyrillic etc. the Serbs decided not to wait to see where that was going. Jovan Roskavic led the Croatian Serbs, until Trudjman got the bright idea of discrediting him to get Serbs more to his liking. He got the Serbian Republic of Krajina instead.

Quote

The Great Depression is repeating before our eyes in a greatly condensed time frame than the original. Out of the first Great Depression came the above atrocities and atrocities on a far worse scale are likely to come out of this Great Depression.

Something else that someone who is blamed for everything including hurricanes is going to get blamed for?

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

To say the Ustashe was supported by the Catholic Church is a bit much. Certainly some Catholics were members and supporters, including some clergy, but that can hardly be claimed as official sanction by the Catholic Church. The same claim can be made about some Orthodox in Romania and Bulgaria which were part of the Axis. Can I therefore conclude the Orthodox Church supported the Axis? Of course not. It is ridiculous claims like these that make it appear people have axes to grind.

Then how come the Vatican still won't open it's archives regarding this period of history? And how come so many Utashe members who were also Catholic priests ended up in South America (Argentia) with Vatican passports?

The Vatican is quite stingy with its archive concerning all periods. They won't even let me in to take a look. As to passports, do you really think the Pope oversees things like passport issuing? I am sure their is quite a bit of bureacratic corruption at the Vatican, up to and including Croatian members of the diplomatic corps issuing passports to Croatian war criminals. There was the Vatican bank scandal a few years back as well. None of this implies the Pope or the Catholic Church at large supported the Ustashe or the war crimes they committed. Which I should point out they also commited against Byzantine Catholics of the Eparchy of Krizevci. Croats worshiping like thier dread enemies the Serbs I suppose was the reasoning on that one.

Fr. Deacon Lance

PS The Supreme Court has no ability to judge or pass sentence on a sovereign nation, which the Vatican City State is.

Oh, guess again on that. Just ask Iran, Kurt Waldheim, Yassir Arafat and the Palestinian Autority.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 12:28:10 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Our Holy Martyrs suffered far worse than the Serbs under the Ustashi, the Greeks under the Turks, the Arabs under the Muslims, the Russians under the Mongols/Tartars, the British Clergy under William the Conqueror, and so on....

I don't understand who's being compared here.

My point is that the suffering and oppression of one Orthodox people (e.g. the Serbs) needs not be constantly emphasized in light of what happened to Orthodox witnesses throughout the course of history. Just as Roman Empire had their agenda in persecuting early Christians, an agenda exists for the mistreatment of Serbs. We will not resolve that problem in this forum and those who wish for a resolution will not find the resolution they are looking for.