So exactly like I said, most of these things are applicable to highsec. Three out of thirteen were not? Gosh, it’s almost as if that’s exactly what I said.

Teinyhr:

We already have Pendulum Wars where you can already play with your toys, so I assumed this was not part of the discussion by default, but this all out war you’re salivating for, where the conflict would escalate in to traditionally highly controlled space.

And you think an outright war would suddenly not involve lowsec as well? Capsuleers wouldn’t have to know to fight there, if they were to be of any use? Good grief.

Teinyhr:

You would want Molden Heath to be destroyed? You truly are a patriot.

This is pathetic even for you. Terrible strawman.

Teinyhr:

Still pure speculation until it actually happens. I’d make a bet as long as I can afford it, but it is a bet I hope never needs to be cashed in.
Nice dodge of the question.
I’ve seen enough. Also, your smug bitch is showing.

Speculation, yes. However, I’d rather be prepared for the eventuality, and not have to be, than be wildly unprepared if it does happen.

No, that’s a perfect answer. MC would go where the contract is, I would go where my heart lies. This shouldn’t be a difficult concept to grasp. If you really are this bloody stupid, no, I would not be fighting for or with CVA. You might also want to check combat records, I have killed -amongst other things- CVA Keepstars, and fleets, in Providence.

You have seen nothing of note. Dabbling a toe into the waters does not mean you know what life outside the kiddie pool is like. Your combat record is clear, you genuinely haven’t seen real war.

Teinyhr:

Because I don’t ejaculate rainbows on how amazing it is to shoot at a target when FC tells me to, I know nothing? Ok.That is betting on that the horn is ever sounded. I don’t frankly give a ■■■■ what you do, go die in whatever pointless endeavour you wish. I only keep responding because you do.

Since you make completely daft claims, clearly demonstrating your inexperience and ignorance when it comes to capsuleer warfare, your opinion is in fact worth quite a bit less than from someone who does know capsuleer warfare, yes. You are willfully and intentionally ignoring huge chunks of New Eden’s advancements in warfare and pretending they are somehow not real.

“The Republic Fleet were slow to follow the other naval powers along the new path of capital warfare inspired by capsuleer combat experience in the many wars of the Outer Regions of New Eden. In large part this was due to a flaring up of the old debate between the firepower- and maneuver-oriented generals of the Brutor dominated military circles and the logistics- and fighter-oriented Sebiestor fleet tactician and technologist circles.”

“The Amarr have decided that there’s something to learn from the capsuleers when it comes to capital ships. I can’t say as I disagree. I’ve been trying to tell the Navy this for years.” - remarks by Ishukone CEO Mens Reppola on the occasion of the Amarr-Caldari Capital Warfare Summit, YC118.01.15

“The infusion of Amarr thinking on the subject of capital ship warfare served to break a long-standing impasse between doctrinal factions in the Caldari Navy’s strategic command. The wisdom of learning from the example of the most experienced capital warfare pilots in New Eden was accepted and the Minokawa-class Force Auxiliary was the eventual result.”

" It was soon realized that lack of experience in capital ship warfare had left fleet doctrines lagging behind the tactics of capsuleers fighting in the Outer Regions.

From this realization was born the concept of the Force Auxiliary capital ship, a vessel dedicated to ensuring the survival of more combat- and command-oriented capital ships such as Carriers and Titans. The Apostle-class Force Auxiliary was commissioned in memory of Empress Jamyl I and is richly decorated in token of this dedication."

Teinyhr:

Our people? You are the one who has anti-government terrorist organizations on their record and have turned your back on the Republic and its people. If you ask me, you don’t even deserve to talk about “our people.”

I was never part of the Republic. I am Mizhara Del’thul, Mizhara of the Island of Thule, of the Gripdjur Clan, of the Sebiestor Tribe. I earned my place among the Gripdjur, trained as a Volur and my kin are both on Mikramurka and the ones the Freeborn are abandoning in chains among the Amarr.

I embraced the Tribes and I never let go of my kin, even if the Republic abandons them.

Explains why so many minmatarts were enslaved. But we are Caldari, and we fight for what is ours, we defend our people and our assets from aggressors. That’s why we will never become slaves as your people.

You have seen nothing of note. Dabbling a toe into the waters does not mean you know what life outside the kiddie pool is like. Your combat record is clear, you genuinely haven’t seen real war.

Yeah? I’ve also killed CVA more than I can care to remember during my time in the Pendulum Machine.

I was also dabbling in null when you were still figuring out how to fit Rifters, at least according to your public record, if you really want to go this virtual-penis-comparison route. The few places I checked miss at the least a hundred of combat entry records between YC108-111.

Of course, I can only offer my word on their existence since I didn’t take backups of them, not knowing some tosser would do a reading of the tea leaves from them nearly a decade later.

Prior to YC110 CONCORD did not actively collect this information and it had to manually be entered into hundreds of separate databases, almost all of which are now defunct. And since the pilots who held their own records of killing blows are also now long gone, these records are I assume lost forever.

Mizhara_Del_thul:

Since you make completely daft claims, clearly demonstrating your inexperience and ignorance when it comes to capsuleer warfare, your opinion is in fact worth quite a bit less than from someone who does know capsuleer warfare, yes. You are willfully and intentionally ignoring huge chunks of New Eden’s advancements in warfare and pretending they are somehow not real.

Translation; “You don’t sing the same praises as I do, I disregard what you say.”

Mizhara_Del_thul:

the Freeborn are abandoning in chains among the Amarr.

I embraced the Tribes and I never let go of my kin, even if the Republic abandons them.

Nobody is abandoning anyone, not me, not you, not your clan, not the Republic. I don’t understand your inherent hostility in this, and I suspect I never will. I’ve expressed my views earlier in longer-winded posts, I’m not about to recite them here again.

I can’t tell if you genuinely have no reading comprehension or if you’re being willfully daft. Either way, feel free to keep trying until you get it even remotely right.

Teinyhr:

Yeah? I’ve also killed CVA more than I can care to remember during my time in the Pendulum Machine.

I was also dabbling in null when you were still figuring out how to fit Rifters, at least according to your public record, if you really want to go this virtual-penis-comparison route. The few places I checked miss at the least a hundred of combat entry records between YC108-111.

Of course, I can only offer my word on their existence since I didn’t take backups of them, not knowing some tosser would do a reading of the tea leaves from them nearly a decade later.

Prior to YC110 CONCORD did not actively collect this information and it had to manually be entered into hundreds of separate databases, almost all of which are now defunct. And since the pilots who held their own records of killing blows are also now long gone, these records are I assume lost forever.

Ah, you somehow managed to have a significant career in capsuleer combat conveniently erased almost a decade ago, but it was totally there, I swear for realsies. And a boyfriend in Amamake, in a different school, you wouldn’t know him, really.

It also would somehow not be a decade out of date, and ignorant of a decade’s worth of development in tactics, strategy and tools available for both.

I’m sure you’re a wealth of information on capsuleer warfare, in spite of this thread alone revealing huge patches of ignorance.

Teinyhr:

Translation; “You don’t sing the same praises as I do, I disregard what you say.”

Not really, no. You are demonstrably outright wrong about huge swathes of capsuleer warfare. You claim it’s stagnant in development and warfare, when even the Empires outright state they needed to draw on experienced capsuleers in the Outer Regions to update their own doctrines and that is why your opinion is worth quite a bit less. You are just wrong, not just ‘of a different opinion.’

Teinyhr:

Nobody is abandoning anyone, not me, not you, not your clan, not the Republic. I don’t understand your inherent hostility in this, and I suspect I never will. I’ve expressed my views earlier in longer-winded posts, I’m not about to recite them here again.

How many do you think break every single day, Teinyhr? What is your precious Republic doing about it? They are abandoned.

We can pretend otherwise as much as you want, but the simple fact is, once they’ve been broken it is because they were not saved. The Republic has failed each and every one of those people. My loyalty is with the Tribes. My kin. Be they free or still being broken.

Actually, Aria, Miz’s chain of logic there is the entire reason behind the CEWPA war: keeping the eggers active because “THE OTHER GUY WILL HAVE EGGERS!!!”

I really doubt that’s the reason, Arrendis. The capsuleers seem to be mostly a rotating cast of mercenaries. There are exceptions (PIE, others I’m less familiar with), but…

It’s pretty clear each empire has its own military capsuleers. The reason for having us out there as well has always been obscure; there’s a lot of strangeness in our situation.

Miz seems to assume the only weapons available against us are the ones we’ve seen. To me, that’s the opposite of a safe assumption. She seems to think we’ll at some point be turned fully loose to do as we please. More likely, one day some bit of seemingly random noise in the background of our fluid router comms will disappear, and I’ll fall over in the Praefecta’s garden and never move again.

Or something like that.

My predecessor saw a war coming, between capsuleers and baseline humanity, and there was no way she saw us winning (if that would even be remotely desirable). That was before stuff like Sansha’s incursions and the Sleepers and Drifters and so on; maybe those are really the things we exist to help deal with.

I … see some of the same things. At some point, assuming things go well, we’re probably going to outlive our usefulness. (If they go badly, we might not get the chance.)

It’s not just because of the worrying circumstances of my arrival in this world that I don’t expect to be in it for very long. A lot of the difference between my predecessor and me is, I’m kind of okay with that.

Miz seems to assume the only weapons available against us are the ones we’ve seen. To me, that’s the opposite of a safe assumption. She seems to think we’ll at some point be turned fully loose to do as we please. More likely, one day some bit of seemingly random noise in the background of our fluid router comms will disappear, and I’ll fall over in the Praefecta’s garden and never move again.

I think you very much overestimate the idiocy, and underestimate the hubris, of those with power, who’ve held power for decades.

I certainly assume no such thing. I just know that New Eden’s nations know all too well that without us, they would be far worse off as it is and they also know their enemies might certainly keep capsuleers in their pocket even should they deactivate their own. This would be suicide.

Besides, you think every last one of us hasn’t already been profiled and security vetted by every intel agency in the cluster? They know better than any one of us who are and aren’t loyalist material and useful to them.

I think you very much overestimate the idiocy, and underestimate the hubris, of those with power, who’ve held power for decades.

So, they’re smart but arrogant?

… not seeing the smart in failing to include failsafes when you’re setting up something that’s going to wield the kind of power we get to more or less literally play with. Like, ideally, multiple independent ones.

Miz, I kinda doubt that a lot of us pass muster as far as loyalty goes. The empires all have their own separate, military units; they mostly only seem to even come into our view for special events of whatever sort. There’s no reason to think they’re especially weak, either. Anybody remember the last time an Iapetan (sp?) Titan was visible anywhere? I don’t know if any of us have even seen one.

If, as you seem to be suggesting, you cull us down to only the really loyal ones, you might have enough of us left to fill an auditorium-- total.

I kinda wonder whether you’d even be one. Your loyalties are as clearly declared as mine are, but, also like mine, yours seem to be to someone (a person or group of people-- your clan, my personal loyalty to Praefecta Daphiti) rather than something (the Republic, the Empire). Actually I believe we’ve both had things to say about our respective powers-that-be that might not win us friends in the kinds of circles making decisions like that. Although, considering your oft-restated bloodlust, they’d probably consider you reliable for the war itself; just maybe not for ending it. Eh-- for that matter my tie to the Praefecta might make me trusted too, for a while.

Be interesting to see.

I doubt it’s down to the individual nations to make calls like that, though. It seems more likely that we’re compromised enough, dangerous enough, and historically uncontrolled enough that if it comes down to it, they’ll make it a blanket order for all us “immortals”:

I can’t tell if you genuinely have no reading comprehension or if you’re being willfully daft. Either way, feel free to keep trying until you get it even remotely right.

Maybe again we are both discussing a whole different topic past eachother, because as must be evident by now, we are pretty much polar opposites in our thinking.

Mizhara_Del_thul:

Ah, you somehow managed to have a significant career in capsuleer combat conveniently erased almost a decade ago, but it was totally there, I swear for realsies. And a boyfriend in Amamake, in a different school, you wouldn’t know him, really.

It also would somehow not be a decade out of date, and ignorant of a decade’s worth of development in tactics, strategy and tools available for both.

I’m sure you’re a wealth of information on capsuleer warfare, in spite of this thread alone revealing huge patches of ignorance.

I know full well how it sounds like, but yes, I once reveled in mindless combat as well, even if you find that hard to believe. Had I known everything I’ve ever done would be scrutinized to this degree to pull conclusions out of ones arse, you bet I would have made backups upon backups.

With what, how and when you shoot might have gained variations over the years, but at the end of the day you are still picking a target and firing on them. Or micromanaging support and ewar, if you’re in that position. You can wank about ingenious tactics, tools and strategies all you want, but combat itself has not changed in centuries.

I have not claimed to be a capsuleer warfare guru at any point, but tried to establish that I’ve been around the block enough to have grown tired of meaningless warfare, which capsuleer warfare largely is.

Mizhara_Del_thul:

Not really, no. You are demonstrably outright wrong about huge swathes of capsuleer warfare. You claim it’s stagnant in development and warfare, when even the Empires outright state they needed to draw on experienced capsuleers in the Outer Regions to update their own doctrines and that is why your opinion is worth quite a bit less. You are just wrong, not just ‘of a different opinion.’

I remember you complaining about putting words in others mouths and inventing arguments, now would be a good time to follow your own example. I have not said anything what you claim here, those are entirely your interpretations and I don’t know where the flying ■■■■ you have even pulled them from?

Mizhara_Del_thul:

How many do you think break every single day, Teinyhr?

Too many.

Mizhara_Del_thul:

What is your precious Republic doing about it?

How would I know? Ask Shakor. At least they’re not going in guns blazing to get squashed, ensuring renewed slavery for everyone. They have at least that much more sense than you.

Mizhara_Del_thul:

They are abandoned.

No.

Mizhara_Del_thul:

We can pretend otherwise as much as you want, but the simple fact is, once they’ve been broken it is because they were not saved. The Republic has failed each and every one of those people. My loyalty is with the Tribes. My kin. Be they free or still being broken.

The Tribes are the Republic. Your loyalty is evidently with nothing but yourself, since you can’t accept the Republics’, the Tribes’ - even your Tribes - apparent inaction. Fact of the matter is, neither of us know if the Republic will launch an Elder Invasion part Deux tomorrow. Ok, It’s highly unlikely, but hey, it is possible.

You have a silver tongue, but the words that come out of your mouth are still venom.

I know full well how it sounds like, but yes, I once reveled in mindless combat as well, even if you find that hard to believe […] You can wank about ingenious tactics, tools and strategies all you want, but combat itself has not changed in centuries.

Oh, dear. Um. Yes. I suppose. If you approach combat as “mindless,” not much has changed, and it’s all pretty boring, and I suppose you do a lot of quiet wondering why all these people “wanking” about tactics, tools, and strategies (and diplomacy, and logistics, and economies) are consistently kicking your ass.

My predecessor saw a war coming, between capsuleers and baseline humanity, and there was no way she saw us winning (if that would even be remotely desirable). That was before stuff like Sansha’s incursions and the Sleepers and Drifters and so on; maybe those are really the things we exist to help deal with.

(It’s fashionable to dismiss it as “futile,” by people who obviously aren’t strategic planners of the various pirate factions, or, like the various slash-and-burn cultures, just figured that since there was plenty of forest to burn today, surely there’d just be an equal amount of it tomorrow. Somehow it’s still worth quite a few ISK to the empires.)

Considering the Jove were involved, Arrendis, I really doubt it was something so simple and stupid.

“Simple and stupid,” is, “Great! New military technology; let’s keep it to ourselves as much as possible and use it to build an overwhelming strategic advantage!” (And bungle it through some oversight.)