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When I looked at this before I was a bit turned off by the tech specs (not that tech specs are everything).

For example, 5 sampled layers for the sustain doesn't sound like very many. That's more or less what we observe in hardware pianos. On the other hand 15 velocities for the release sounds like a lot. I wonder what the sampler knows that I don't.

The other thing that used to be troubling was the pedaling functionality. Since it has switched to a new player, perhaps they have updated the scripting. Last I heard it didn't support rededaling. In fact, more importantly, I don't see anything unambiguously saying it supports partial pedal. Generally VST's will list that in their features just so we know they don't belong to the older generation that had great samples but everyone complained about playability because they had so few scripting niceties.

Looking around the site they are treating this like an uprgrade from the older, Kontakt version (you have to pay for the upgrade, in fact). Probably it has a reasonable set of new features, but they don't seem well-advertised so it's hard for us to know.

I do have one additional thought, which I hope isn't too negative--I'm just going to be frank. I see a lot of Shigeru worship around. They've done some great marketing on it. I have played on an EX and it didn't seem very special to me. Really, the difference between the Shigeru and K Kawai lines is quite overblown in my opinion--a lot of hot air about how the trees used to make the Shigeru line had achieved nirvana and how the piano strings were wound by a little old man instead of a machine. Those things don't make much difference in the sound based on my experience. I like Kawai acoustics overall (and their digitals) but when I was demoing the two lines side by side they sounded pretty similar to me. I wouldn't pay much extra for a Shigeru over the RX line--master voicing in my home notwithstanding. To my ears, a Kawai is a Kawai. Having said that, variety in your VST portfolio is a good thing and this is the only way I know of to get a Kawai in there.

A side note: do you think they could have found a more wobbly stand for the piano featured in the demo video? I'd go crazy playing on that thing.

I got the Kawai EX long ago, did not initially like it (for several reasons), abandoned it, and forgot about it. But since you raised the issue today, I decided to try it again. And I'm delighted. This is a very responsive piano with excellent tone, and I think I'll now use it regularly.

So, why did I not like it long ago?

1. I load other pianos into Kontakt (ex: Vintage D and the Galaxy series) by simply dragging a library into the main Kontakt instrument-rack window. The pianos become almost immediately playable. But the Kawai EX does not come as a "library" in an "Instruments" folder. So to load the Kawai I have to use the file/folder navigator to find the samples folder. This is annoying.

And then I must wait a long time for the billions of files to load. They occupy more than 700 MB, so this is a slow process.

Now that I understand a bit more about Kontakt, I'm able to save the loaded pianos (Kawai and Vintage D) as a "multi". I save it in the Vintage D instruments folder. So, to load it, all I must do is drag that item into the main window. It's still slow loading, but it's much easier.

2. The Kawai EX does not have half-pedaling. This is a bit annoying. But what's worse is that the pedal trigger point is quite low, lower than the Galaxy/Vintage pianos. So I suffered many pedal "misses".

But now I have Bome's MIDI Translator, so I've configured it to shift the pedal values upward a bit, making the damper pedal respond earlier. The Kawai still lacks half-pedaling, but at least the "whole-pedaling" is more responsive.

The Kawai EX does not have half-pedaling. This is a bit annoying. But what's worse is that the pedal trigger point is quite low, lower than the Galaxy/Vintage pianos. So I suffered many pedal "misses".

But now I have Bome's MIDI Translator, so I've configured it to shift the pedal values upward a bit, making the damper pedal respond earlier. The Kawai still lacks half-pedaling, but at least the "whole-pedaling" is more responsive.

If it doesn't support half-pedaling, then it is only responding to Pedal Up and Pedal Down. The pedal sends one command when it is depressed and one when it is released, It is a physical mechanism. How can the SOFTWARE have a low pedal trigger point? It is either getting a pedal down command, or it is not (and responding accordingly), and that is determined entirely by the physical mechanism. Now, if it were half-pedaling, I would understand it, because then the pedal is sending a range of values that have to be mapped by the software to different behaviors, so the software can introduce a variable. But with a simple ON/OFF I can't understand how the software could affect the pedal trigger point at all. What am I missing here?

I first saw Lance Herring's Academic Grand, a 1960s Steinway D that to my ears also sounds fantastic, a couple of years ago via the YouTube videos and that led me on to listen to the EX demos too. He gives me the impression that his commitment and dedication to obtaining something special from these pianos might transcend the bare technical specs, which I agree are very ordinary (Academic Grand is just four layers for instance).

If I could get my head around what I need to do to run software I'd take the plunge with the Kawai EX and the Academic Grand - I think they both sound brilliant. The Academic grand played softly really hits the spot for me.

My piano produces six non-zero pedal increments. It sends a pedal command each time the pedal changes from one level to another. So from top to bottom it sends 24, 40, 56, 72, 88, 104, and 127 ... and the reverse set on the return, ending at 0.

I presume the Kawai behavior is that it (or the Kontakt software in front of it) only responds to pedal value 127? Or to pedal values above some threshold? If so, then it wouldn't respond at all at smaller pedal values, and I'd have to adjust my technique to suit.

Instead I adjust my pedal curve with Bomes so that lower pedal values are translated to higher values. And it works.

Originally Posted By: anotherscott

If it doesn't support half-pedaling, then it is only responding to Pedal Up and Pedal Down. The pedal sends one command when it is depressed and one when it is released, It is a physical mechanism. How can the SOFTWARE have a low pedal trigger point? It is either getting a pedal down command, or it is not (and responding accordingly), and that is determined entirely by the physical mechanism. Now, if it were half-pedaling, I would understand it, because then the pedal is sending a range of values that have to be mapped by the software to different behaviors, so the software can introduce a variable. But with a simple ON/OFF I can't understand how the software could affect the pedal trigger point at all. What am I missing here?

My piano produces six non-zero pedal increments. It sends a pedal command each time the pedal changes from one level to another. So from top to bottom it sends 24, 40, 56, 72, 88, 104, and 127 ... and the reverse set on the return, ending at 0.

I presume the Kawai behavior is that it (or the Kontakt software in front of it) only responds to pedal value 127? Or to pedal values above some threshold? If so, then it wouldn't respond at all at smaller pedal values, and I'd have to adjust my technique to suit.

Ah, I understand now, thanks.

The basic MIDI spec for sustain (from the pre-half-pedaling days) is 0-63=0ff, 64-127=On. So then the issue is that, in your particular pedal, you have to press it farther than you'd like in order to generate a number above 63. So it is not a software issue. And you would have that issue using that pedal with any piano sound source that did not support half-pedaling. They all need to see something above 63 for the sustain to kick in, and the place where that number is generated--in this case, too low in the travel for your tastes--is dependent on the design of the pedal itself. Good that you found a fix, though!

When I looked at this before I was a bit turned off by the tech specs (not that tech specs are everything).For example, 5 sampled layers for the sustain doesn't sound like very many. That's more or less what we observe in hardware pianos. On the other hand 15 velocities for the release sounds like a lot. I wonder what the sampler knows that I don't.

There are two explanations. Forst, the 5 velocity layers are "blended" as one of you suggested in an answer. We use a lot of filtering to make the velocity transitions almost unnoticeable.Then the 15 releases are actually 3 sets of 5 velocity layers. We use the different sets of releases depending on time. The first is for stacato, the second for around 500ms and the last for longer notes. This makes the response of the strings when you release a key more accurate and allows for realistic staccato playing.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns

Last I heard it didn't support rededaling. In fact, more importantly, I don't see anything unambiguously saying it supports partial pedal.

No, the Kawai EX PRO does not support Half pedal or repedal (for now ;), an update is in the works).

Originally Posted By: gvfarns

Looking around the site they are treating this like an uprgrade from the older, Kontakt version (you have to pay for the upgrade, in fact). Probably it has a reasonable set of new features, but they don't seem well-advertised so it's hard for us to know.

The main update is that it now comes with its own player, UVI Workstation (and it did not before, you had to buy Kontakt). We also revoiced it A LOT to make it more accurate and precise, and by voicing i mean adjusting the velocity blending as well as the volume of all notes compared to the others, each release sample is matched precisely to its corresponding sustain sample.We also added the midi controls, you can shape the velocity response as well as the dynamics and the velocity curve.There is also the sostenuto that was not there before.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns

A side note: do you think they could have found a more wobbly stand for the piano featured in the demo video? I'd go crazy playing on that thing.

I promise to get a better one for our next piano library

I just corrected a few things in the specs and will add the few other that i described here. When we changed our engine, we had to rewrite all of the descriptions and we missed a few things.

If I could get my head around what I need to do to run software I'd take the plunge with the Kawai EX and the Academic Grand - I think they both sound brilliant. The Academic grand played softly really hits the spot for me.

It is actually not that complex. All you need is a decent computer and a way to connect your keyboard to it to transmit the MIDI data.

It sounds fantastic. That's exactly the type of piano sound I like. I wouldn't have guessed that it was the Acoustic Samples Kawai though - I thought the A.S sound was bolder and brighter. (I know that it says that it is, and I believe them, though)

I wonder if my technique is just primitive--- but I never use half-pedaling at all, not with the DP and not with the RX. Yet it seems to be such a big issue on this forum, and comes in for harsh criticism where it is not supported.

not having half pedal doesn't bother me. I can use a DP either way. That being said my last 2 pianos have had it - but not a deal breaker for me... I'm really just an amateur player - I concentrate on getting something with a nice resonant tone - that is the most important part to me.

The big one for me is "re-pedalling". (and I think the ONLY software piano I have that does this is Pianoteq, but I don't have any of the more common sampled ones that are often discussed here. I have EWQLP which is a well known one, but not often discussed ;^) Without re-pedalling, I have to be ultra precise with the sustain pedal to avoid notes being cut off, due to the pedal being pressed just after the note is released. With re-pedalling, the fact that the note does not die away completely by the time the pedal is played is taken into account, so the note still rings, but with a possibly reduced level.

I wonder if my technique is just primitive--- but I never use half-pedaling at all, not with the DP and not with the RX. Yet it seems to be such a big issue on this forum, and comes in for harsh criticism where it is not supported.

Do you really use it? I either pedal, or I don't.

I think it's actually the other way around. Perhaps your pedaling is precise enough that you don't have a problem with the lack of pedal. When I play I barely push the pedal past the point of engaging and then never lift it up all the way either. On an acoustic this saves me the trouble of a thump if it goes too far.

On a digital, though, I have the pedal close enough to the border between engaged and not engaged that it accidentally trips one way or the other, sometimes in a very noticeable fashion. Partial pedal gives me a little leeway in which if I don't move the pedal quite as much as I intend, I still get a reasonable sound. This is particularly important because there is no tactile evidence that you are at the border of the dampers (dis)engaging.

Another possible problem with lack of half pedal (depends on how they design the release samples) is that releasing the pedal when there is no half pedal can lead to an unnaturally abrupt end to the sound. That's very implementation-dependent, though. I don't recall this being much of an issue with my old digital, but it was an issue for me playing Ivory 1.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that you don't have to be consciously intending to use half-pedal in order for it to be helpful and even important. Just wondering (not meaning to doubt you) but have you played any digitals without half pedal? I find them nearly unplayable.

The modern VST's (at least galaxy and ivory) should support repedaling just fine. As far as I know PianoTeq was first with this, but anything I'd consider "current" has it. I don't consider EWQL or the Kawai EX library discussed here to be current because they don't have current technology in them.

sulli: Vintage D has re-pedaling, as do Galaxy's Steinway and Vienna Grand.

Also, I agree about the half-pedaling. I really need it. My (older) version of the Kawai lacks that, and I suffer for it. It also lacks "room" (reverb). Maybe Santa will bring me the new version, which has both? I've been extra good this year!