So, it was brought up in the WWN RPG thread that it'd be cool to try to figure out just how quick or stealthy or whatever we actually are. Some of us haven't been able to fight together, so that's ok, we can still discuss what you'd define as average. What's average in these qualities in your fights?

So, here are a few traits we can look at. Once we have these defined out then some of us can begin to give feedback on those of us who we've fought with.

Strength
How strong is the average water warrior in your opinion? What would you expect people to be able to carry on average without getting bogged down? Have you ever played with someone who could carry an insane amount of guns or gear around? What about the opposite?

Stamina/Endurance
How long can you last? Everyone has their limits. In one particular 2 v 4 soakfest I was on the 2 side of the battle and using a Monster XL. Although we held our own I eventually switched out to an XP 110. Although this may seem like a strength issue it's more of a stamina/endurance issue. I had no problem operating the MXL, it was a matter of just how long (a good 20 minutes) I could run around the yard pumping, dodging, and firing with it.

Speed/Quickness
Taken by itself this is more of how fast you can sprint, while combined with stamina and endurance one can gather how quickly someone can cover long distance. How quick is the average water warrior? What extremes have you experienced?

Stealth
This is one of those categories that can't accurately be defined using statistics. You know it when you see it (or don't). It's the ability to go undetected. What epic ambushes have you pulled off? Tell us about the epic times you've snuck up on an unsuspecting opponent (it doesn't always have to be camouflaged and still, you could have run right up behind someone).

Dodging
Pretty self explanatory.

Awareness
Can you see what's about to happen 2 steps ahead? Are you aware what is happening on the opposite flank of the front line?

While this forum is obviously dedicated to water warfare given the topic of interest you have brought up you might want to include all forms of tactical games. The tactical traits needed to be successful in a competitive water war differ little from other types of tactical engagement.

In addtion to the traits you have mentioned I would also include the trait of being able to localize and identify what you hear. A good forward observer or combat controller can pick out the sound of enemy movement long before most other people can. While moving to contact if I hear the enemy water warrior scout's direction before he hears me I can move to a flanking position or duck into cover and ambush him.

^ They actually differ quite a lot. The gameplay style is very different here from anything else, one that favors speed/dodging (essentially the same thing: lower body strength, endurance, and coordination) above all else. Of course, these traits are heavily dependent on your playing environment as well, especially the stealth one. In most daytime environments we play in, you can almost never truly sneak around or stay hidden, and even if you do, the need for mobility will overtake the need for stealth in the majority of situations, but night wars are a much different story.

The good forward observer/combat controller is also good at distinguishing the opposing team from non-players and other environmental disturbances. =p

Strength
How strong is the average water warrior in your opinion? What would you expect people to be able to carry on average without getting bogged down? Have you ever played with someone who could carry an insane amount of guns or gear around? What about the opposite?

The average water warrior should be able to handle a medium primary (CPS 1000/1200/2100/Gorgon/Vindicator) without much trouble. This is also the standard I expect people to carry without getting bogged down. Lots of gear has always been uncommon in my experience. Especially pre-community war era, mobility was of critical importance - you couldn't fight what you couldn't catch. Lighter blasters were commonly wielded by both sides and often with good effectiveness.

Stamina/Endurance
How long can you last? Everyone has their limits. In one particular 2 v 4 soakfest I was on the 2 side of the battle and using a Monster XL. Although we held our own I eventually switched out to an XP 110. Although this may seem like a strength issue it's more of a stamina/endurance issue. I had no problem operating the MXL, it was a matter of just how long (a good 20 minutes) I could run around the yard pumping, dodging, and firing with it.

I decouple running/moving endurance from fighting stamina. I do not have a well-developed aerobic system and thus cannot keep up a pursuit for long, but I can fight with many blasters indefinitely. Rapid, prolonged pumping is the bottleneck, it hits your anaerobic lactic system and makes your pumping arm burn. The more pumps a blaster takes to full and the stiffer the resistance, the sooner this sets in. Gorgons and 2000s are horrible in this regard, while that threshold is never reached with something like a 150.

Speed/Quickness
Taken by itself this is more of how fast you can sprint, while combined with stamina and endurance one can gather how quickly someone can cover long distance. How quick is the average water warrior? What extremes have you experienced?

I've found that the average water warrior is decently fast. Extremes have ranged from the whole RM chasing Waterbridge up and down the park, to Tony lying on the ground exhausted while battle raged around him. Then again, I used to recruit almost exclusively from sports teams, as speed was very important. Again, we couldn't fight what we couldn't catch.

Stealth
This is one of those categories that can't accurately be defined using statistics. You know it when you see it (or don't). It's the ability to go undetected. What epic ambushes have you pulled off? Tell us about the epic times you've snuck up on an unsuspecting opponent (it doesn't always have to be camouflaged and still, you could have run right up behind someone).

I've posted about old RM and WB ambushes on each other before, and it could easily take up many printed pages discussing them all. Ambush used to be the preferred way to get hits. All manner of objects were used, including the spillway cut on top of a dam, mulch piles, large trees, a concrete block, reed groves, a pumping station, bridges, stick piles, thorn bushes, tall grass, and river bank rims. I've had a lot of good ambushes, the ones at the Spring Street Bridge, the large trees at Goffle park, and the Perfect Ambush stick out as exceptional. In more contemporary times, I ambushed Keith in the portables skirmish from point blank range (unfortunately the camera battery died before that happened), ambushed DC Sam with a 2000 during a naval assault round, ambushed Sam and Trevor on the north of Sycamore Island, and led a team ambush in the Downpour 2011 OHK round. That ambush proves that you don't need it to be perfectly setup if you achieve complete surprise and rout your opponents. It's difficult for me to pull off too many ambushes these days, even with the right environment, because the other team is like "Where's Rob?"

Dodging
Pretty self explanatory.

I've found that the average water warrior is not great at dodging. They tend to make a good amount of hits, but get hit a good amount of times in return. A good dodger needs to have a lot of different styles mastered, especially backward dodges and secondary moves. This is the one game where a backward dodge can be more effective than a side step. Streams of water drop off quickly unless you're really close in, but they can easily be dragged side to side. Nerfing is the best training for dodging water, as stefans fly so much faster with so much less time to identify the path and decide how to dodge. When you come back to a water war, the streams of water are insanely slow and it's hard to get hit by them.

Awareness
Can you see what's about to happen 2 steps ahead? Are you aware what is happening on the opposite flank of the front line?

Being aware of your surroundings and reading body language is really important. They are rarely able to sneak up on me or pull off a move un-countered. Usually, I can spot a flanking attack or rush forming and make adjustments before it goes into motion. This is another thing that the average water warrior is not good at. They get stuck in tunnel vision, fighting matchup battles. I get stuck doing the zooming in/of the proverbial trees/forest and making the line adjustments. Few players want to quarterback the battle and manage its flow, they mainly just want to attack. Also, good awareness goes nowhere unless you have players willing to listen to you. You can spot and adjust all you want, but if no one feels like making the moves, your whole line can go down.

marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

Thanks. You're actually pretty good at using cover in suburban areas like yards with buildings and shrubs and stuff. You do a good job of knowing when to move from position to position and can catch people by surprise.

Scott is really good at sneaking around the inside of old dark buildings and is very stealthy in those types of situations. It's really interesting, because he is quite hard to detect but on the flip side is rather easy to detect in forest and field environments.

Those are good examples of how strengths and weaknesses are often more complex than simply being good at stealth or cover or whatever.

Strength: I'd like to say that water warriors on average should be stronger than people who play other wargames. Reason being, our equipment is heavier than pretty much everyone else's, except perhaps for those airsofters who play with full metal guns. Duxburian once told me that one of the reasons most Nerfers don't like water warfare is because the guns are so heavy. Water weighs a lot. I would say that the average water warrior is in better shape than the average Nerfer, based on what I've seen. I agree that light CPS (or medium primaries, haha) should be the standard people should be able to carry without struggling. I guess that I'm one of the stronger players in the community. I can't recall ever playing with someone who was a lot stronger than me, but of course I have played with people on the other end (mostly younger kids like marauder's nephews and my cousins), who've had trouble lifting a CPS blaster.

Stamina/Endurance: Average water warriors should have good endurance. Depending on the play style, they need to be able to either cover long distances quickly, or be able to run and dodge for nearly the entire battle. All while carrying heavy gear. While some wargames, like certain styles of airsoft, do take place over large distances, water warfare definitely features the most physically demanding combat. This is of course, due to the much lower ranges at which water warriors fight. Nerfers do run around some, but often just take to hiding behind cover. Airsoft and paintball is usually fought almost exclusively from behind cover. So once again, water warriors should be above all the rest in this category. However I find that many warriors don't quite fit these standards. My endurance is on the higher end, especially if I'm in good shape, but I'd still rate myself below the ideal average. There are water warriors with better endurance than I (marauder is one of the best), but most people seem to end up gasping like fish out of water after a spirited battle. Though to be fair, most Nerfers fare even worse, and after less intense games.

Speed/Quickness: Probably one of the two most important traits in the short play style that has become somewhat of a favorite at community wars (we should come up with names for different play styles, by the way), obviously due to the short range combat. I agree with DX; the average water warrior can hustle pretty well. The game itself seems to be a favorite for sprinter types, and overweight players are rare. Unfortunately this is where I don't do so well. I would probably rate my speed as being average. I'm not painfully slow like I used to be, but there are definitely several players who can outrun me. I've played with a few people like DC Sam who just stand there most of the time (I don't remember ever seeing him run, now that I think about it), but this doesn't happen often.

Stealth: Yeah, this is a difficult category to define. On one hand, you could say it's simply how quiet someone can be (while moving through undergrowth and stuff), but there's a little more to it than that. Obviously in water warfare, as well as any other wargame, ambushing is the most deadly way to attack, so stealth is important, and the average warrior should be pretty sneaky. Now this doesn't really come into effect much in short rounds, but when you can't see your opponents from the start (if it's either nighttime or they're too far away), then that's when this skill becomes important. However many water warriors aren't very good at keeping a low profile. One observation I made recently is that many players struggle to move through the woods. Almost my entire childhood revolved around the woods, so I've grown accustomed to it and can get through thick vegetation pretty well. I've watched others walking in the woods, and I see them constantly tripping and getting smacked in the face with every branch in their paths. A lot of players can't sit in ambush position for very long either. They start squirming around and repositioning themselves, and some can't keep their voices down. *cough*Scott*cough*

(Whoo, need two paragraphs for this one.) I guess I'm pretty decent in the art of stealth. Overall I'm just a quiet person. While it can be annoying having a quiet voice when trying to communicate over a distance, it comes in handy when setting up an ambush. I have made a few ambushes, but it doesn't happen often because of how often we adopt the short playing style. I've shot a few players in the back before, but the only team ambush that I've been a part of was in Frozen Fury 2012 rivalry round. It ended up being unsuccessful because it wasn't exactly planned; the enemy just started coming up the hill, catching us in less-than-ideal ambush positions. We just held still until I felt that we could no longer get away with not being seen. In short battles, battlefield presence plays a pretty big role in pulling off ambushes. Like DX pointed out, it's hard for him to sneak away undetected because so many people are scared shatless of him and always want to know where he is. My brother chief has had some success pulling off ambushes because he doesn't have as large a presence on the field, and has the freedom to slip away without too much notice. (Though now I think some people have grown to expect it.) However marauder has made some good ambushes despite having a big presence, so props there. In long rounds this isn't a problem, because ideally, the ambush is the first time you'll see the other team.

Dodging: This is the second of the two most important traits in short battles. This time water warriors have it easier than people who play other wargames. Streams of water are nothing compared to fast-moving Nerf darts and airsoft BBs. Therefore the average water warrior should excel at dodging in straight up combat. And for the most part, it can be very difficult to hit someone in the open without getting hit yourself (assuming 1-on-1). So I think that most people are decent at dodging, but only because it's so easy. People usually only get hit when they either screw up (like trip or something), get distracted, ganged up on, or ambushed. The shooter is rarely fully responsible for getting the hit. I'm as competent as the average veteran water warrior. Duxburian is far and away the best though. I would say that his dodging ability is the only major league-level trait that anybody on the field has (that I've played with). I usually don't even bother trying to hit him without backup anymore. Then on the other end you have people like DC Sam who just stand there, and try to get out of being hit by claiming that your CPS stream was entirely blocked by a tree the diameter of your wrist. Newbies are generally not good at dodging, because unlike strength and speed, it's a skill exclusive to water wars.

Awareness: Situational awareness is a very important trait in any sport. In fact, it's an important trait in life. So obviously, the average water warrior should have it in spades. The reality is that many players don't. I'm pretty much echoing DX here, but a lot of people tend to focus all their attention on matching up with one player. They trust their teammates to keep the other players away. This can lead to disastrous results if you're in a bad position. I remember in a night battle at Soakemore 2014, CA99 was in between two buildings, shooting at chief who was out in the open. While CA99 was distracted, I was able to run to the opposite side from my brother, and shoot CA99 in the back. As for myself, I usually have a good idea of what's going on in an engagement, and I'm always making sure I know where everyone on the opposing team is. However I do have some trouble focusing on more than one thing at a time (the more things there are, the worse it is), so sometimes I miss opportunities, run into trees, etc.

There are other traits too:
-Intelligence: I guess situational awareness falls under this category, but it also includes things like knowing what move to perform, coming up with battle plans, etc. I'm alright in this category, but that's mainly from experience.
-Weapon awareness: Can't really think of a better name for this, but it's basically just how well you can use a water blaster. While accuracy is not as important in water wars, it still does play a part, particularly since most players take tap-shots. I'm as good as anyone I suppose (most water warriors are good in this area), though my shots can get wild when I'm under a lot of pressure.
-Determination/Mental toughness: Basically how much you're into the game and how badly you want to win. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you just don't care, it ain't gonna do you no good. Players with a lot of determination will go to any lengths to win. Professional sports teams prize this trait. I'd like to say that I'm on the high end.
-Teamwork: How well you fight with others. Some people just go off and do their own thing, but you need to be able to communicate and work with your teammates to be effective. A team comprised of people like this can be very deadly. I have decent skills in this area, but only with certain people; a lot of warriors really aren't good team players, I've found.

There are probably more, but none that I can think of right now. marauder, as I mentioned above, your best attributes are probably endurance and stealth. You seem to have pretty good awareness/intelligence too. I would say you're probably the toughest competition I've faced so far. I'm not sure about your worst attributes, because I haven't fought you as much as I have others. Nothing seems to really stick out though.

CA99 (er wait, HBWW) is indeed good in urban environments. Not exactly sure what category that would fall under. Maybe stealth? He's also pretty good at shooting. I remember busting my ass trying to dodge some crazy stream patterns he sent at me in the Soakemore night rounds. The biggest thing he needs to work on is awareness.

Duxburian obviously has excellent dodging skills, as I said earlier. He's also very fast and very determined. I guess his weakest attribute is endurance. He also tends to play too defensively at times, kinda like I do. Though again, I'm not really sure what category that would be.

Scott (typed that as Scoot at first, haha) is one of the best fighters in the community, which I guess means good weapon skills, with some situational awareness. I think he mainly needs to work on endurance and stealth, like I alluded to above.

chief has good intelligence and stealth. I would say his biggest weakness is...maybe stubbornness? He tends to adopt a "my way or the highway" kind of attitude, and often won't listen to anyone else. I would say that's under the teamwork category, but then again he does work well with certain people, myself included. So I dunno.

AMBUSH is probably strongest in the strength department (see what I did there?). He's both good and bad when it comes to shooting. He fights hard, but at the same time uses up a lot of water. He's also not the quickest of the bunch.

Whew, I did not expect this to be that long. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone, but if I did, now you get to rate me. Do yer worst!

Strength: My arms have never been as strong as most other guys my age, but I don't struggle to handle Gorgons and such or to pump the likes of the 300. My legs however are a different story and never seem to get tired regardless of loading even when running.

Stamina/Endurance: Not as remarkable as I would like them to be (overachiever). But my stamina and endurance are some of my strongest traits. Between this and my leg strength I am able to to run for miles at almost unladen speeds even when carrying blasters of around 10lbs (I blaim the crummy backpack for why the 300 slows me down so). and maintain intense combat for long duration's when necessary.

Speed/Quickness: Probably about average for people my age, not bad or exceptional.

Stealth: I can move around pretty quietly in the woods on one hand (albeit at a snails pace), and can keep a low profile while doing so but can't sit in ambush position without an target in view or at least audible for very long before I start repositioning myself.

Dodging: Occasionally above average, I remember dodging airsoft springers rated 200fps matrix style on open ground before, shocked the daylights out of the other two players. However as M4 has seen I can be pretty careless at other times, like when I lost that dual to him between my 300 and a loaner Gorgon 6 to 3.

Awareness: I'm fairly good at this in my smaller battles but I've never needed to watch more than 6 players in total before.

i have found having a wide knowledge of the stats (esp range) pros, cons, and quirks of the blaster you play with (personally and team) and against is a significant advantage.

As my group is very inexperienced, and currently don't read these forums or Isoaker, they tend not to know relative ranges except that of their own weapon (many borrow blasters so know even less). Often they rush in closer than needed before firing exposing themselves to attack without firing back, or shoot from well out of range wasting ammo, or relax and not pay attention when an enemy is in range (leading to an unexpected soaking). i remember at least range for all the blasters that we use and other stats for most. I can quote all the Isoaker stats (just stats not the ratings) for my CPS 1000 from memory.

I assume that all the WaterWar.net veterans would have almost complete knowledge of the top tier primaries that they use and encounter (and many other blasters besides, so this probably isn't relevant to them. But for the newer water warriors it is important to consider - How well do i know my blasters and my enemies?

JJA I agree that having a knowledge of stats is very useful and allows one to be quite deadly against unprepared foes or with loners.

For example the first time I ever saw a Python 2 I used it as a loner to great effect, instinctively firing it just right to threaten at a given range. There are however times when it can't help with handling a new weapon like when I first used a 300 and didn't angle it enough because it shot so much further than my other primary's that my instincts weren't helping, or using a Hydrostorm and firing at too great a distance because you can't close in enough to actually make shots and grossly overestimate your range.

On second thought I should have made them use Goblins instead of a Splaterblast and Barrage to make it more fair and fun for me as the sucker, but hindsight is 20/20.

You're definitely good at moving far distances and timing use of cover to attract minimal attention. (Which I'm betting was from military training?)
Don't know about your weakest attributes, I haven't had a chance to find out yet. DX probably knows.

I've given this a ton of thought, because the last time Ben asked me for feedback on his strengths and weaknesses, the last was pretty vague. I've found that his personality type benefits most from specific details.

So, let's start off with strengths.

I think Ben is the most well-rounded player we have, and one of the toughest. While I would classify him as offense-oriented, his defense is good enough that I trust him to hold down his match ups and never have to think about them. Ben getting hit and my line collapsing isn't something I generally worry about.

I think most players have an "enabling" stat that forms the root of many of their abilities. IMO, Ben's enabling stat is endurance. He can continuously run around the field, pushing the pace on offense, and attack with the insistence of a rising tide. Ben just keeps on pressing and forces you to take defensive shots. He'll also pursue you vigorously when you fall back or break. This attack style racks up the kills. Endurance enables him to operate with heavy soakers, backpacks being no problem, up hills and over long distances. Endurance also keeps his battle IQ up and patience stalking or ambushing the opponent.

My enabling stat is speed. I have many forms of speed that are well developed and natural. Speed fuels my dodging agility, sprinting, and decision-making. Even as my physical fitness declines, my agility and decision-making speed continue to rise, as I am very active in NIC wars. My top end speed may decline with lack of training, but there is a natural core speed threshold that is hardly affected by fitness level.

I have found that Ben and I have inverse strengths and weaknesses when it comes to endurance and speed. He is most effective against me using large soakers and leveraging his endurance to push the attack. I am most effective against him using light soakers and leveraging my speed to absorb the attack and then counterattack. Ben doesn't particularly lack decision-making or dodging speed, but these are disadvantages that make it slightly easier for me to hit him than him to hit me. If there is room to maneuver, my dodging speed keeps me alive, and he can't wear that out over time because it's not drawing upon my weak aerobic system. Eventually, I find an opportunity and lash out with a brief, but intense attack that may sometimes overwhelm him. These characteristics are why he does better against me with say, a 2000, while I do better against him with say, a 1200 or 150. Not surprisingly, he does better against me in longer rounds and I do better against him in objective rounds and shorter rounds.

I also have a pretty significant advantage in ambush survival, although we both have good fundamentals and set up good ambushes on each other. The difference maker is speed, as endurance doesn't help you when you are the target of an ambush. I often get out of a ranged ambush by identifying the incoming stream and dodging while it's in mid air. That's all reaction time, decision-making speed, and agility, which can get me out alive even if I walk right into the ambush. Ben's defense kind of relies on not walking into the ambush. I'm not sure if this is a weakness to be plugged as much as an optional enhancement to a skill. Being able to identify the situation, decide how to evade, and then do it, usually in a fraction of a second as the stream comes at you, has saved me from a lot of ranged ambushes, such as from Chief at Northgate, Chief in the Portables, Sam in the Portables, Scott in the Downpour 2011 OHK round, Ben at the deck corner in Duelfest, etc. Note that a point blank ambush will still end whoever walks into it, there is no dodging those.

Ben is good at stealth when not facing me. I don't let myself lose track of his whereabouts. There are situations where he should fight with the group rather than try to sneak off. The Frozen Fury round in the abandoned theater at Long Beach West is probably the best example of this. He snuck off into an ambush position, but that turned a large advantage for our team into an outnumbered disadvantage on the stage. He did end up getting Chief, but it was one kill, and it took him out of the fight that we were actively losing. If he'd been with the main team, we could have gone on offense on both flanks. Instead, I was pushed back to defense and the nephews became wide open to attack in the center. The stage got slippery and no one could dodge effectively, the only way to win that round was to have taken the fight to the Seals.

I actually think that Ben fights most effectively on the active flank, using timing and numbers rather than fighting alone using stealth. When I form a line, I try to keep one flank anchored in relative safety and the other one hangs openly. With Ben on the active flank, he can take advantage when I pin multiple opponents in my area. A great example of this is the Hydropoc 2012 OHS round across the stream. I was able to get 2 on 1, 3 on 1, and 3 on 2, creating a mismatch for Ben on our left. Nick and I held down our section and just let him hit Seals from the flank. The best example of all may be from Frozen Fury 2013 in the Outpost round at Northgate. I got the Seals to commit 3 to the center hill and kept them in battle there, while Ben went down the left. That gave him a 1 on 1 with Sam, which turned into a huge mismatch down below that they didn't know about. That enabled me to launch my own attack that finally hit them and took the center base, and then like that we had all the bases. When we are on the same team, we should both attack, shielding our players via offense instead of battle line management. Our attack uphill against the Seals in Moab's rivalry AP only round was great, I just needed to have a 300 instead of a Gorgon. Disregard Andrew dying 3 times. Our attack in the naval assault round of Hydropoc was also great, once the enemy had landed. We did nothing but attack, and I think the outcome was 9-0 and 5-0.

So, for the TL:DR conclusion: I think the things that Ben should work most on are the full range of speed stats and most optimal position during straight-up battles. Defense, as well, but it's 5 AM and I don't have time to go into that tonight.

marauder wrote:You have to explain things in terms that kids will understand, like videogames^ That's how I got Sam to stop using piston pumpers

Wow, you guys sound really impressive. I just got into reading the community wars war stories and have been really inspired. I think I need to do some more intense training/battling with my little clan. We are really into forest warefare and want to make it a lot more hardcore. Some of the things that SEAL has said in the stories about what he likes really stick out to the kind of battles we want to have. I'm guessing Ben = HBWW? Oh and are there any more good war accounts outside of the community wars or is that the extent of the big wars?

This is becoming a great discussion. I am getting pretty eager to start fighting again, and really want to host a war this year. Sam, you aren't as bad as you make yourself out to be. I thought you were pretty challenging when we were fighting in the woods behind my house at dark, and also but especially in the more abandoned building type environments. You struggle the most in the woods during the day.

jja wrote:i have found having a wide knowledge of the stats (esp range) pros, cons, and quirks of the blaster you play with (personally and team) and against is a significant advantage.

I remember this being a very important factor when first starting out. We had some big wars and people would run through their ammo like nothing or shoot before they were in range. Knowledge will get you a good foot in the door.

Cochise wrote:I'm guessing Ben = HBWW? Oh and are there any more good war accounts outside of the community wars or is that the extent of the big wars?