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rayiner wrote:How many fresh law school grads with zero skills do you think can hack it as a solo practitioner?

I am pretty sure I can. I know my way around a law library and a practitioner's guide.

Have some pretty good marketing ideas too.

Have fun paying for all of the overhead (research costs, malpractice insurance costs, virtual office aren't allowed in all states so rent, etc) as one of a bajillion solo pracs.

1. law libraries are free2. malpractice insurance is around $7,000 per year3. my state allows virtual office4. don't need a paralegal at first5. loan payments will be ~$700 per month6. SO can pay rent, bills

I'd probably need to make 20-25k just to break even. Not great, but better than being Corsair'd.

Fark-o-vision wrote: Besides, many medical students are unable to attain the residency or specialty they desire, but they're still doctors. Lawyers unable to obtain biglaw jobs are still lawyers.

Doctors unable to get their chosen residency still get to practice medicine, and are thus doctors. Lawyers unable to get a legal job don't get to practice law, and are thus not lawyers.

The thing that most people fail to understand is that if a Medical Student doesn't win the R.O.A.D.P. Specialties lottery, he's stuck with a shitty Speciality with shit job prospects, shit working hours and salary only averaging 120-150k/year.

Considering the working hours, debts, lack of "lifestyle", do you really think Medicine is a better investment than Law in the long run ?

I prefer risking myself a bit at a Top Law Institution and eventually end up with a good paying job at my late 20s and beast exit opportunities to Business positions than going into Medicine, study 12 years on average after UG and start building my client base at 34-35 to start my life at 40, then worry about debt repayment, malpractice insurance, kids, house, wife ?

General Tso wrote:You see this figure tossed around on TLS all the time -- that there are 45,000 law grads per year and only 30,000 new legal jobs per year. Is that figure still accurate? And if so, how many of those 30k are going to 1-3 year attorneys who have been laid off recently?

Doesn't this really mean that fewer than 1/3 of us will get a legal job? Times have certainly changed...my brother graduated bottom of his class from a TTT in 2007, and even he found a 45k attorney position.

you should also keep in mind that a lot of JD's don't practice law. a lot of companies like hiring people with a JD, because they can do a non-legal job but also provide legal input to a small company.

Fark-o-vision wrote: Besides, many medical students are unable to attain the residency or specialty they desire, but they're still doctors. Lawyers unable to obtain biglaw jobs are still lawyers.

Doctors unable to get their chosen residency still get to practice medicine, and are thus doctors. Lawyers unable to get a legal job don't get to practice law, and are thus not lawyers.

The thing that most people fail to understand is that if a Medical Student doesn't win the R.O.A.D.P. Specialties lottery, he's stuck with a shitty Speciality with shit job prospects, shit working hours and salary only averaging 120-150k/year.

Considering the working hours, debts, lack of "lifestyle", do you really think Medicine is a better investment than Law in the long run ?

I prefer risking myself a bit at a Top Law Institution and eventually end up with a good paying job at my late 20s and beast exit opportunities to Business positions than going into Medicine, study 12 years on average after UG and start building my client base at 34-35 to start my life at 40, then worry about debt repayment, malpractice insurance, kids, house, wife ?

i understand your argument. i think a lot of people feel that the 120k is locked in for medicine, but not for law. additionally, 120k may not seem like a lot of money to you, but much of america would give a limb to be able to have a chance at earning that sort of salary.

Fark-o-vision wrote: Besides, many medical students are unable to attain the residency or specialty they desire, but they're still doctors. Lawyers unable to obtain biglaw jobs are still lawyers.

Doctors unable to get their chosen residency still get to practice medicine, and are thus doctors. Lawyers unable to get a legal job don't get to practice law, and are thus not lawyers.

The thing that most people fail to understand is that if a Medical Student doesn't win the R.O.A.D.P. Specialties lottery, he's stuck with a shitty Speciality with shit job prospects, shit working hours and salary only averaging 120-150k/year.

Considering the working hours, debts, lack of "lifestyle", do you really think Medicine is a better investment than Law in the long run ?

I prefer risking myself a bit at a Top Law Institution and eventually end up with a good paying job at my late 20s and beast exit opportunities to Business positions than going into Medicine, study 12 years on average after UG and start building my client base at 34-35 to start my life at 40, then worry about debt repayment, malpractice insurance, kids, house, wife ?

Waaaaait a minute. Let me see if I follow what you're saying. You're saying worst case scenario for medicine is a bad specialty and bad hours for 120-150k/year? And that's worse than law?

You do realize that the worst case scenario for law students is no legal job, right? And you do realize that this is a prospect that confronts the majority of law students? And you also realize that an overwhelmingly large number of people who are lucky enough to get jobs don't have any say in what they work on (hello doc review!), work awful hours, and make less money than they would be making if they had just worked for those three years instead of going to law school?

So yes, I think medicine is a far better investment than law. It isn't even close.

P.S. Unless by "top law institution" you mean Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, there is at least a decent probability of what I just laid out happening to you. Your whole argument is premised on "eventually ending up with a good paying job in your late 20s and beast exit opportunities." I'm sure the other 40,000+ students in any graduation year are gunning for the same thing and the overwhelming majority are not going to get it.

Fark-o-vision wrote: Besides, many medical students are unable to attain the residency or specialty they desire, but they're still doctors. Lawyers unable to obtain biglaw jobs are still lawyers.

Doctors unable to get their chosen residency still get to practice medicine, and are thus doctors. Lawyers unable to get a legal job don't get to practice law, and are thus not lawyers.

The thing that most people fail to understand is that if a Medical Student doesn't win the R.O.A.D.P. Specialties lottery, he's stuck with a shitty Speciality with shit job prospects, shit working hours and salary only averaging 120-150k/year.

Considering the working hours, debts, lack of "lifestyle", do you really think Medicine is a better investment than Law in the long run ?

I prefer risking myself a bit at a Top Law Institution and eventually end up with a good paying job at my late 20s and beast exit opportunities to Business positions than going into Medicine, study 12 years on average after UG and start building my client base at 34-35 to start my life at 40, then worry about debt repayment, malpractice insurance, kids, house, wife ?

Waaaaait a minute. Let me see if I follow what you're saying. You're saying worst case scenario for medicine is a bad specialty and bad hours for 120-150k/year? And that's worse than law?

You do realize that the worst case scenario for law students is no legal job, right? And you do realize that this is a prospect that confronts the majority of law students? And you also realize that an overwhelmingly large number of people who are lucky enough to get jobs don't have any say in what they work on (hello doc review!), work awful hours, and make less money than they would be making if they had just worked for those three years instead of going to law school?

So yes, I think medicine is a far better investment than law. It isn't even close.

P.S. Unless by "top law institution" you mean Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, there is at least a decent probability of what I just laid out happening to you.

Dude. What is up with you guys? You are prospective and/or current law school students. You spend a large amount of time on law school forums. And yet you incessantly post bitter portents projecting a dismal future for all law school graduates. Your purported "realism" is dripping with insincerity. You scoff at students who are confident that they will place in the top 10 percent of their class, writing off their drive as arrogant folly. But how could you "pragmatists" possibly believe that you will be in anything but the 10%? Are you so pompous as to laugh at everyone's chances of being in the top 10% but your own? And your obsession with BigLaw as the only viable option for law students due to the high costs of school begs the question: if landing a BigLaw job is so difficult, and if law students' post-graduation plan is all about securing a comfortable salary, then why the HELL aren't you following your own advice and just getting a job now? Is there some sick masochistic mechanism lurking within you that forces you to expose yourself to the things to which you seem the most averse? Or do you just love making posts crushing others' dreams and ambitions while secretly harboring your own?

By the way, I'm not a troll. All of my other posts on here have been simple inquiries about the application process. I am simply trying to add to what I have discovered to be a very one-sided debate here on TLS. I'd like to see some genuine responses to this. I'd like to understand why there is such bitterness, such an inferiority complex with the medical profession, and such aversion to all things law on a forum dedicated to law school.

X_Soda wrote:Are you so pompous as to laugh at everyone's chances of being in the top 10% but your own?

Yes. The whole field is that pompous. That's why we're warning you now. Go to law school at your own risk because if you miss that top 10% goal of yours, no one will bail you out. The reality of that fact didn't set in for me until about September of 2L.

Edit: One more thing: Depending on where you go to school, top 10% might not be good enough. In this field, some legitimate geniuses are told to get lost. Hope you're ready!

Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Luckily, I never said I had a 10% goal. I am confident in my abilities, but I honestly haven't a clue what to expect in terms of competition and course work. Law school is an end in itself for me, and BigLaw is just one of the many options I will be considering as I search for an area that most fits me. I appreciate the warning to those who are just assuming they will be in the top 10%, but the bitterness, inferiority complexes, and cynical scoffing at people's ambitions is what I find unsettling.

X_Soda wrote:Luckily, I never said I had a 10% goal. I am confident in my abilities, but I honestly haven't a clue what to expect in terms of competition and course work. Law school is an end in itself for me, and BigLaw is just one of the many options I will be considering as I search for an area that most fits me. I appreciate the warning to those who are just assuming they will be in the top 10%, but the bitterness, inferiority complexes, and cynical scoffing at people's ambitions is what I find unsettling.

This place is a pressure cooker. Most of the posters on here are under some serious stress from one source or another. My take on it is that a little anonymous internet snarkiness is good for the soul. Get the soldiers ready for combat, you know? I mean, if someone is going to get his feelings hurt in an internet forum, then law may not be the right field.

And my comments are not directed at you personally. Just chatting.

Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

X_Soda wrote:Dude. What is up with you guys? You are prospective and/or current law school students. You spend a large amount of time on law school forums. And yet you incessantly post bitter portents projecting a dismal future for all law school graduates. Your purported "realism" is dripping with insincerity. You scoff at students who are confident that they will place in the top 10 percent of their class, writing off their drive as arrogant folly. But how could you "pragmatists" possibly believe that you will be in anything but the 10%? Are you so pompous as to laugh at everyone's chances of being in the top 10% but your own? And your obsession with BigLaw as the only viable option for law students due to the high costs of school begs the question: if landing a BigLaw job is so difficult, and if law students' post-graduation plan is all about securing a comfortable salary, then why the HELL aren't you following your own advice and just getting a job now? Is there some sick masochistic mechanism lurking within you that forces you to expose yourself to the things to which you seem the most averse? Or do you just love making posts crushing others' dreams and ambitions while secretly harboring your own?

By the way, I'm not a troll. All of my other posts on here have been simple inquiries about the application process. I am simply trying to add to what I have discovered to be a very one-sided debate here on TLS. I'd like to see some genuine responses to this. I'd like to understand why there is such bitterness, such an inferiority complex with the medical profession, and such aversion to all things law on a forum dedicated to law school.

You do realize that it's a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of people won't be in the top 10%, right? Because you sure do seem to be missing that fact. Many of the people who point out the problems for people not in that top 10% are people who were fortunate enough to make that cut, but see their friends getting shut out.

Also, there is a disproportionate number of people on this board going to schools where top 10% isn't necessary to land a firm job. Many of us transfered from places where that was the requirement.

There's no "inferiority complex" with med school - people are simply talking in terms of demonstrable evidence. You might want to learn how to do that.

Finally: LOL at the idea of 3 years and X non-dischargeable debt (anywhere from $0, which, bully for you for getting a full ride (or being born rich, I guess) - $200k) being an end to itself. All the power to you I guess, heh.

X_Soda wrote:Dude. What is up with you guys? You are prospective and/or current law school students. You spend a large amount of time on law school forums. And yet you incessantly post bitter portents projecting a dismal future for all law school graduates. Your purported "realism" is dripping with insincerity. You scoff at students who are confident that they will place in the top 10 percent of their class, writing off their drive as arrogant folly. But how could you "pragmatists" possibly believe that you will be in anything but the 10%? Are you so pompous as to laugh at everyone's chances of being in the top 10% but your own? And your obsession with BigLaw as the only viable option for law students due to the high costs of school begs the question: if landing a BigLaw job is so difficult, and if law students' post-graduation plan is all about securing a comfortable salary, then why the HELL aren't you following your own advice and just getting a job now? Is there some sick masochistic mechanism lurking within you that forces you to expose yourself to the things to which you seem the most averse? Or do you just love making posts crushing others' dreams and ambitions while secretly harboring your own?

By the way, I'm not a troll. All of my other posts on here have been simple inquiries about the application process. I am simply trying to add to what I have discovered to be a very one-sided debate here on TLS. I'd like to see some genuine responses to this. I'd like to understand why there is such bitterness, such an inferiority complex with the medical profession, and such aversion to all things law on a forum dedicated to law school.

Many of the current law students on this site are simply attempting to make prospective students aware that success in law school and in the current legal market is not necessarily based on how hard you work or how optimistic you are. We've taken exams, and seen the arbitrary nature of grades for ourselves, we've been through interviews where firms ask 0 substantive questions, we've personally experienced great successes and resounding failures, and seen up close the despair of our classmates who realize that they are deeply in debt with no real means of repaying that debt and, in some instances, no desire to practice law.

The advice on this website is laced with pessimism because it needs to be. You need to understand what you're getting into. You need to realize, that there are more lawyers than jobs, and, despite what you think at this moment in your life, 160k+ in debt on a 50k salary with a 25 year IBR is probably not going to be a very good life.

The fact of the matter is, most of the 0L's on this website come in bright eyed and idealistic about the world they are about to enter. It's a world they really have little understanding of though. I'll agree that some posters are obnoxious, elitist, etc..., but I really believe that there is also a lot of good advice handed out on these boards (especially in the legal employment forum). We post because we care, we scoff because we care...

"And he said, Truly I say to you, No prophet is accepted in his own country."

Last edited by Aqualibrium on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fark-o-vision wrote:Part of TLS's overreaction to the bad economy is based on the belief that legal hiring is supposed to be easy.

If you spend three years and this kind of money to go to a decent law school, you should be able to be a lawyer. Especially if you go to a respectable school.

I think med school students would be pretty pissed too if they spent all that time and money and couldn't be a doctor.

That works in theory, but you're ignoring other factors. I think it's ridiculous to automatically expect a job to be handed to you just because you finished lawl school, especially in this economy. There are a lot of other motherfuckers who did the same thing and have the same credentials and expectations...it's just the luck of the draw. Things *will* improve as the economy continues to grow, but for now, this is just how things are. This problem isn't exclusive to just the legal industry.

So far the responses to my post have been far more reasonable and less polluted with elitist garbage than many of the posts I've seen on this forum. I appreciate that. I agree with you guys that it is vital to warn people who come into law school hypnotized by $160,000/yr thinking that if they just "work hard" they will achieve that goal. Nonetheless, the emphasis on money and BigLaw here really makes me wonder why you guys aren't just pursuing something safer, like finance or medicine. It can't be because of the intellectual difficulty, because anyone who is capable of performing well on the LSAT and in law school can transfer that dedication/natural intelligence to higher learning in those fields. There must be some kind of passion for the field that fuels you to continue in this risky direction. I just wish that posters here could privilege that desire to practice in the field in some kind of way. Frankly, if you're going to law school solely for the BigLaw salary, you're a goddamn idiot. There are far safer fields that offer equal or better pay.

X_Soda wrote:So far the responses to my post have been far more reasonable and less polluted with elitist garbage than many of the posts I've seen on this forum. I appreciate that. I agree with you guys that it is vital to warn people who come into law school hypnotized by $160,000/yr thinking that if they just "work hard" they will achieve that goal. Nonetheless, the emphasis on money and BigLaw here really makes me wonder why you guys aren't just pursuing something safer, like finance or medicine. It can't be because of the intellectual difficulty, because anyone who is capable of performing well on the LSAT and in law school can transfer that dedication/natural intelligence to higher learning in those fields. There must be some kind of passion for the field that fuels you to continue in this risky direction. I just wish that posters here could privilege that desire to practice in the field in some kind of way. Frankly, if you're going to law school solely for the BigLaw salary, you're a goddamn idiot. There are far safer fields that offer equal or better pay.

X_Soda wrote:So far the responses to my post have been far more reasonable and less polluted with elitist garbage than many of the posts I've seen on this forum. I appreciate that. I agree with you guys that it is vital to warn people who come into law school hypnotized by $160,000/yr thinking that if they just "work hard" they will achieve that goal. Nonetheless, the emphasis on money and BigLaw here really makes me wonder why you guys aren't just pursuing something safer, like finance or medicine. It can't be because of the intellectual difficulty, because anyone who is capable of performing well on the LSAT and in law school can transfer that dedication/natural intelligence to higher learning in those fields. There must be some kind of passion for the field that fuels you to continue in this risky direction. I just wish that posters here could privilege that desire to practice in the field in some kind of way. Frankly, if you're going to law school solely for the BigLaw salary, you're a goddamn idiot. There are far safer fields that offer equal or better pay.

You do realize that it's a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of people won't be in the top 10%, right? Because you sure do seem to be missing that fact. Many of the people who point out the problems for people not in that top 10% are people who were fortunate enough to make that cut, but see their friends getting shut out.

Also, there is a disproportionate number of people on this board going to schools where top 10% isn't necessary to land a firm job. Many of us transfered from places where that was the requirement.

There's no "inferiority complex" with med school - people are simply talking in terms of demonstrable evidence. You might want to learn how to do that.

Finally: LOL at the idea of 3 years and X non-dischargeable debt (anywhere from $0, which, bully for you for getting a full ride (or being born rich, I guess) - $200k) being an end to itself. All the power to you I guess, heh.

Actually, I completely realize that. That is why 1) I am not banking on being in the 10% of my class and 2) I am confused, curious, and somewhat irked at posters who carry an air of pragmatism while studying in law school and placing all of their hope in getting a BigLaw job, as though that "mathematical certainty" of not making the top 10% somehow did not apply to them. I realize that I have a small chance of landing a Big Law job. That is why I am opening myself to other possibilities before the hollow "dream" of such a job is crushed for me at OCI. One CAN do something else with a JD and still be able to survive.

X_Soda wrote:So far the responses to my post have been far more reasonable and less polluted with elitist garbage than many of the posts I've seen on this forum. I appreciate that. I agree with you guys that it is vital to warn people who come into law school hypnotized by $160,000/yr thinking that if they just "work hard" they will achieve that goal. Nonetheless, the emphasis on money and BigLaw here really makes me wonder why you guys aren't just pursuing something safer, like finance or medicine. It can't be because of the intellectual difficulty, because anyone who is capable of performing well on the LSAT and in law school can transfer that dedication/natural intelligence to higher learning in those fields. There must be some kind of passion for the field that fuels you to continue in this risky direction. I just wish that posters here could privilege that desire to practice in the field in some kind of way. Frankly, if you're going to law school solely for the BigLaw salary, you're a goddamn idiot. There are far safer fields that offer equal or better pay.

LOLWUT

Seriously, man. This is where the inferiority complex thing comes in. I come from a family of people who have gone to medical school. I have been exposed to numerous high level computer science, physics, and biology courses. They are demanding, yes. They are different than what the average liberal arts graduate has been exposed to, yes. But they are just as learnable as the LSAT. If we're talking about a PhD in physics, then obviously we're entering different terrain. But as far as being able to get into medical school? It doesn't take it a genius.

X_Soda wrote:So far the responses to my post have been far more reasonable and less polluted with elitist garbage than many of the posts I've seen on this forum. I appreciate that. I agree with you guys that it is vital to warn people who come into law school hypnotized by $160,000/yr thinking that if they just "work hard" they will achieve that goal. Nonetheless, the emphasis on money and BigLaw here really makes me wonder why you guys aren't just pursuing something safer, like finance or medicine. It can't be because of the intellectual difficulty, because anyone who is capable of performing well on the LSAT and in law school can transfer that dedication/natural intelligence to higher learning in those fields. There must be some kind of passion for the field that fuels you to continue in this risky direction. I just wish that posters here could privilege that desire to practice in the field in some kind of way. Frankly, if you're going to law school solely for the BigLaw salary, you're a goddamn idiot. There are far safer fields that offer equal or better pay.

LOLWUT

Seriously, man. This is where the inferiority complex thing comes in. I come from a family of people who have gone to medical school. I have been exposed to numerous high level computer science, physics, and biology courses. They are demanding, yes. They are different than what the average liberal arts graduate has been exposed to, yes. But they are just as learnable as the LSAT. If we're talking about a PhD in physics, then obviously we're entering different terrain. But as far as being able to get into medical school? It doesn't take it a genius.

I would love to get a PhD in physics, but I don't think any respectable program would admit me.

Oh, and that wasn't inferiority complex. It was snark. Elitism, if you will.

By your own logic, yes. It is foolish to enter law school with such an unrealistic goal, one that is almost a mathematical uncertainty, and have no other plan. Is that not what you and everyone else who makes bitter posts toward bright eyed law school hopefuls are trying to say? Isn't the idea of BigLaw or bust the dangerous idealism that this forum is largely dedicated to warning against? What makes you special? What gives you the ability to be the arbiter of pragmatism and simultaneously transcend it? THAT is what my initial frustration was directed towards.