quote:ah for fricks sake really? So instead you just let her die. Brilliant.

ok do a risky procedure that will do nothing to save her life, makes sense to me. Just assume for a second that the abortion wouldn't save her life the doctors knew it you think they should do it anyway

quote:Here's a thought, Drop the PC bull shite and care more about the people then the skygod and maybe more people will think the skygod actually cares about them.

I do if you actually understood the Catholic faith you would understand the dignity of the human person is central to its teaching, so we do care about human beings.

I could talk to you about the 5th commandment about common good preferential option for the poor and many other things showing how we do care about human beings.

quote:Yeah. That castle the Pope lives in certainly shows everyone what's actually important to the Catholic hierarchy.

The business of religion at it's finest.

yeah that's all we care about is the pope in his castle

Maximilian Kolbe gave his life to save some jews in a death camp.

I could list thousands of examples of Catholic Saints who gave their lives for the lowest of society, the forgotten, while yes it does look like the pope lives in luxury but all of it is necessary, and the church builds stuff like this to give all glory to God.

Catholics do care about people they also care about God gives us to command to treat everyone with equal respect.

But you won't take off your anti-religion, anti God glasses to see the truth.

quote:Funny. Im pretty sure that a god that is worthy of my devotion wouldn't need his earth bound messengers to live in a castle.

this is off topic so I'm not going to get into it.

but even with your claim the Catholic Church is one of the greatest forces for helping people in this world. IF I remember correctly Catholic Charities was on of the first organizations to make it to haiti after the earth quake.

according to forbes Catholic Charities is the 4th largest (revenue) in this country.

I could list countless saints who spent their entire life serving the poor.

but I'm sure you will ignore this fact and just focus on the fact that the pope lives in the vatican instead of some run down church or something. You're also going to use this to say the Catholic Church does care about people and only cares about their hierarchy, even though for thousands of years the Church has been a leading force for helping the poor in this world.

I have been hesitant to bring in religion to this thread, because I've always felt that a person's choice in how to express his/her faith is an individual matter. As well, my sister is a staunch Catholic & I know that God had been of indescribable help to her ( note I did not say the Catholich Church, which is my take on it). But now that the Church has been brought into this, all that I can say is my faith became totally an individualistic matter for me, as opposed to seeking it in one specific form of religion, when it became common knowledge that the Church permitted 10000000's of "innocent children" to be sexually abused by its priests. And not only permitted it, but helped those same priests do it over & over & over again, simply by moving them from one parish to another. So, now, I should be guided by the moral principals of this Church when it comes to issues of what to do/not do with other "innocent children?"

catholictiger, you "object and say it may not be as black & white as you make it out to be"? Yet, everything that supports your beliefs IS black & white. The fact that you are young is only relevant to the fact that you probably have no real life experiences with any of this. It does not preclude you from having a functioning mind & your own beliefs. But you really do need to spend some time with PEOPLE who live this horror of rape based pregnancies, victims, family members, and experts in the various fields of victim support who do live this horror, real life. Spiritual words delivered from the "pulpit" are one thing. Real life people in the real, ugly world of this issue will teach you a hell of a lot more. My sister is a well educated, very worldly experienced, mature adult female. And she has struggled & struggled with the horrors she was subjected to. Thru conversations & correspondence with rape counselors with experience in dealing with this specific issue, rape based pregnancies,I've learned, as sad as it is, that the majority of such victims are in their teens.So,in addition to all the mental hell that this puts them thru, lets add to it by calling them, black & white, murders.

quote:So as I said, you pray for an America similar to Saudi Arabia in the treatment of it's women.

What is sad is this is the way many of you on that side view this. It ignores the fact there are laws in the US (pretty good ones, I might add) that are specifically in place to protect human beings from the offenses of others such as:

Assault Battery Rape Murder

Further, there are even laws to protect the property of human beings from the offenses of others such as:

Burglary Robbert Theft Trespass

However, no one questions society's right to regulate this behavior, although it inhibits the "choice" of an individual and limits his own sovereignty when it comes in conflict with others.

I respect the pro-choice movement's attitude regarding protecting an individual woman's right to sovereignty - the right to "choose". When the active pro-life movement (of which I am NOT a part) counters, "Okay, she had the right to choose to have intercourse without birth control - this baby is a consequence of that 'choice'", ya'll respond, "What about to protect the life of the mother?"

Most active pro-lifers respond, "Well, that may be an exception."

Then ya'll respond with, "What about rape and incest?" There is a split, because of the fundamental disagreement - some active pro-lifers want to defer to the mother's discretion at this point, but recognize the danger - a woman wants an abortion, has not been raped, but is willing to lie about it to secure the procedure. The exception would consume the rule if harsh measures aren't taken - measures that, frankly, are offensive if you don't believe the unborn child is a separate individual. So there is somewhat of an impasse. Other active pro-lifers do not believe the sins of the father should be visited upon the child, particularly when the sanction is death.

Some pro-choice people respect the opinion of the pro-lifers and realize it is not an "oppression", but rather, in their view a "misguided" attempt to protect an unborn child (a status opinion that most, if not all, pro-choicers do not subscribe). However, it is my experience that most pro-choice people, particularly the vocal ones, do not respect this opinion and suggest all sorts of spurious motivations on the part of the vocal pro-life movement - oppression of women, imposition of religious beliefs, etc.

Can you not accept that the active pro-lifers are trying to protect what they consider to be human beings from murder? I'm not saying that you have to agree with them, but must you suggest that, particularly the pro-life women are trying to oppress women? Is this topic just one that is not subject to a rational, civil debate without devolving into namecalling and wild generalizations?

Does a restriction on abortion rights really equal a restriction of women to the hijab, not driving, not being able to testify in court (at least against a man), not being allowed out with males to whom she is neither married nor related by blood, subject to the death penalty for adultery, restrictions on property ownership, political office, voting, business operation, etc.

Are those really the same or even similar to you?

quote:Good that you can finally admit that.

Will you admit either:

1.) If life really begins at conception, then abortion is murder (and you just don't agree life begins at conception), OR

2.) Even if life begins at conception, the woman's right is paramount and she can terminate up to the moment of birth, if it were left up to you?

Can you admit to either one of those things (and I believe you can hold either view and I can respect the position, but disagree with you)?

Ace, unfortunately, each side is defined by the extremists in each group,as it is the extremists who get the most publicity. My take is that the extremists amongst the pro choicers are asking that women, alone, be given the right to choose what is/is not best for their own bodies. That is an open invitation to the concept of abortion as a form of birth control, which most in the middle do agree is wrong.But the extremists amongst the pro lifers seem to want to force their views/morals on any & all women who get pregnant, regardless of the individual circumstances. And it seems to be the common opinion here, if one is into polls, that most pro lifers consider it murder,and by extension, the woman a murderer. I have serious issues with that.

quote:If a woman has consensual sex and accidentally gets pregnant, do you have a problem with her getting an abortion?

never.

It is no different then a woman making her partner use a condom to prevent the pregnancy or an IUD or...well you get the idea.

...if she doesnt want a baby at that time. The choice is completely hers.

The fun part about that is...the moral minority here believes that forcing the woman to have a baby as punishment for her ...daring to enjoy an active sex life...is how we should treat 50 percent of the population.

And then they can't understand why their side keeps getting its arse kicked in elections.

quote:I have been hesitant to bring in religion to this thread, because I've always felt that a person's choice in how to express his/her faith is an individual matter. As well, my sister is a staunch Catholic & I know that God had been of indescribable help to her ( note I did not say the Catholich Church, which is my take on it). But now that the Church has been brought into this, all that I can say is my faith became totally an individualistic matter for me, as opposed to seeking it in one specific form of religion, when it became common knowledge that the Church permitted 10000000's of "innocent children" to be sexually abused by its priests. And not only permitted it, but helped those same priests do it over & over & over again, simply by moving them from one parish to another. So, now, I should be guided by the moral principals of this Church when it comes to issues of what to do/not do with other "innocent children?"

the church went through a horrible time there and I'm not going to sit here and defend what the church did.

BUT the church has changed and is doing the best they can to stop child abuse. Now out of active priests there are less then 1% of them who are abusers.

The church has gotten a handle on the situation. It still happens yes but no system is perfect. Plus in almost every major field of work there are child abusers, that doesn't justify what they did but don't make the church out to be some real evil organization when it isn't the only one abusing children, and now it has a strong handle on it.

note any person in the Catholic Church who will have interaction with the youth has to go through a screening process, which includes background checks, references from employers, education history, and so on and so forth. The church I believe has fixed its problem at-least in this country. The media just decides to blow the few cases way out of proportion.

quote:BUT the church has changed and is doing the best they can to stop child abuse. Now out of active priests there are less then 1% of them who are abusers.

The church has gotten a handle on the situation. It still happens yes but no system is perfect. Plus in almost every major field of work there are child abusers, that doesn't justify what they did but don't make the church out to be some real evil organization when it isn't the only one abusing children, and now it has a strong handle on it.