Originally by:CCP GreyscaleIIRC we just placed a minimum cap on the signal strength return you can get from a target. Don't remember off-hand what the exact number is, but it isn't very big.

Wouldn't this effectively mean that ANYBODY can scan anybody else's ship down even with minimal scanning skills ?

...I can't actually remember whether we capped the signature return or the base (radius/strength) value. I'll check in the morning.

Sig radius to scanner strength ratio is capped at a point that retains possibility of being scanned down. I believe you'll still find it quite hard to scan ships who have put effort into being difficult to scan.

Well, apparently they chose one of the best possible options.Good job, I'd say._

There goes missioning in NPC space. GOODJOB CCP thanks for making our choices more limited, now i should go join a lol sea of blue corp or jump back to failpire, great, thanks, appreciate it alot.Can we just remove 0.0 NPC space and be done with it, clearly the people who decide to live down there are not supposed to make any kind of income.

Originally by:CCP DropbearBoth sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Oh, and another thing: you didn't even make it harder to scan people down, did you? No full set of implants required, no max skills.... you simply caved to CCP Fallout, like a pudding.

You know, somewhere in these threads someone asked whether you got our back on this. I guess now we know: you didn't.

why exactly should it require a FULL SET OF IMPLANTS to scan someone down, what would be the point of buying a helios without implants in that case are u mental ?

L2directional u idiot, u already had it made easier with the addition of scan probes to the OV

Mash scan button. Dock up every few minutes to avoid getting probed down and having to quit your mission. Attempt to use a semi-pvp fit ship to do missions in the hope that you might ne able to fend off attackers. Then get jammed by 3 falcons. Use high sec/0.0 alt to make isk while preying on the other guys who haven't l2lowsec yet.

Originally by:Akita TSig radius to scanner strength ratio is capped at a point that retains possibility of being scanned down. I believe you'll still find it quite hard to scan ships who have put effort into being difficult to scan.

Well, apparently they chose one of the best possible options.Good job, I'd say.

As someone who used unprobable T3 as deep safe gang boosters for PvP, I am releived this was how they "fixed it." I think the people running missions screwed it up for me. If I want to I'll just set up a small POS and keep them there in the systems I hunt in most.

I can still use my deep safes and just look out for probes on directional.------------------------------------------

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Originally by:Trader HansenCCP's first commandment: Thou shalt click directional scan every 2 seconds like an epileptic with parkinsons.

Anything that goes against this rule shall be nerfed. Heaven forbid CCP actually do something about stopping directional scans from being a repetetive click-fest.

You can now make it so that your ship is only probable with *perfect* probing skills. It will take the prober, likely, several minutes to actually scan you, assuming they're even setup for max probe strength.

You can quite readily fit your ship to stop being a repetitive clickfest (really... once every 20seconds should be enough now). You just can't make it so you're impervious to any harm like a giant Jezebel.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Why?

Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

While I donFt really agree with the solution itFs interesting to get the point of view from CCP. Apparently itFs not ok too tsafelyv earn isk/rewards.Little bit oh highjack but if thatFs the point of view why is high sec ganking still not changed? ThatFs a action that it impossible to protect against, close to 100% safe for the ganker since insurance will pay back most of the ship cost and also have a high chance of netting the ganker some nice prices.It is really time to remove the insurance payout from ships killed by concord.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

It wold be nice if you drop a line with a bit of information how the new ships scanning mechanics works.So we can play and have some fun with EFT while extended downtime lasts.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Why?

Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

You guys are so full of ****. It's actually sad really. These unprobable ships still risked being caught at gate camps, and stations. I do not understand CCP's policy/crusade to completely distroy every which way possible to make a decent buck/isk in this game. What is it to you guys? Oh wait, if we buy more plex's from you guys, you make more money. I got ya now. It has nothing to do with balance in game, but the balance in ccp's bank account. Go preach elsewhere, your logic isn't really logic, but an excuse to try and make you guys more money.

It wold be nice if you drop a line with a bit of information how the new ships scanning mechanics works.So we can play and have some fun with EFT while extended downtime lasts.

Back to the reverse engineering table for me... I'll try to come up with the updated sig str formula as soon as i can manage. I didn't know about the scanning changes otherwise I would have already tested them on SISI...

Posted - 2011.06.21 12:26:00 -
[50]
just goes to show you have nfi do you?

Intel channels. alts and carriers make it possible.

me and four other pilots used to do level 4 & 5's together .we would ALWAYS do missions in one system. never get probed down. as is was a dead end system. we used intel channels and alts to make sure when e ran 5's we was "safe"

as far as 5's... we all used stealth bombers. now it seems that fw missions get 100k lp+ for top end missions lol.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Why?

Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

You guys are so full of ****. It's actually sad really. These unprobable ships still risked being caught at gate camps, and stations. I do not understand CCP's policy/crusade to completely destroy every which way possible to make a decent buck/isk in this game. What is it to you guys? Oh wait, if we buy more plex's from you guys, you make more money. I got ya now. It has nothing to do with balance in game, but the balance in ccp's bank account. Go preach elsewhere, your logic isn't really logic, but an excuse to try and make you guys more money.

Posted - 2011.06.21 13:18:00 -
[51]
You can blame Burn Eden, and those who emulated them, really. CCP doesn't give a flip about unprobable mission runners. They would have happily let that go on forever. This is aimed squarely at unprobable snipers and the angst they caused.

Balance would have been needing a couple of billion worth of ship and implants to catch a ship that's unprobable, but costs that much to make it so. This isn't balance, it's CCP's poor attempt at "fairness" a.k.a. leveling the playing field between the haves and have nots.

They like to swagger around like Vikings, but they're turning into metrosexuals in their old age.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Why?

Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

You guys are so full of ****. It's actually sad really. These unprobable ships still risked being caught at gate camps, and stations. I do not understand CCP's policy/crusade to completely destroy every which way possible to make a decent buck/isk in this game. What is it to you guys? Oh wait, if we buy more plex's from you guys, you make more money. I got ya now. It has nothing to do with balance in game, but the balance in ccp's bank account. Go preach elsewhere, your logic isn't really logic, but an excuse to try and make you guys more money.

I love watching players try to tell the Developers how to develop their game.

What kind of excuse is "They could get caught at gate camps and stations!"? So can every other ship in the game. Use your head a bit more.

I think that if you have a fitting that used to be unprobeable, people trying to scan you down should need best in game sensor strength on their probes. IE. Full implant set, sisters launcher, sisters probes, max skills.

It's not to say that a person in a mission is impossible to find, just very difficult, because when you do find them, they're already out 2-4 Med Slots from their ECCM. That delay in scanning you down is the balance it should afford.

That being said, I'm likely going to stop or slow down my level 5 mission running machine, partly because I've grown weary of them, partly because I like to drink and run Convoy Attack, which takes a good 10 minutes or so.

There are still plenty of level 5s that are easy enough to run even without unscannable fits. Alluring Emanations comes to mind.

Fact of the matter is, I want to see what CCP has done to being probed out and the new math associated. I hope that with a high enough sensor str and a low enough sig you're effectively nearly impossible to locate without dumping a huge pile of isk on implants to find me.

Personally I'd prefer this, partly so that I can mission safe-ish. Partly because the local pirates in my area might like my Low-Grade Virtues and perfect scan skills to help them out.

I'm also just gonna guess that you're Ranka's alt, since her other daily whine is "WAAA NERF SUICIDE GANKING!!"

Hint: you lose around 40% of the ship cost, even on Platinum insurance, not including fittings, that will run you 10-15mil.

If you're carrying all that in a ship that can be one-shot then you're a loon.

No, i am an alt but not Ranka's. I just donFt think that mechanism is very good, and even though it doesnFt mean anything i am not a high sec miner. I run 4 accounts and spend 90% of my time in 0.0 with a small corp (kind of destroyed right now though)

But there is no reason to allow high sec ganking to be as profitable as it is, heck you donFt even need faction to drop to earn money and there is no protection for the miner except docking up. ThatFs a failed mechanism right there.Again I donFt think ganking should be removed but it should not be profitable to gank miners in high sec for T2 drops.

It is about bring your "unscanable" ship(s) to the cutting age now in terms of been very, very difficult (and time consuming) to be scanned.Sig radius decreasing boosters, crossed remote ECCM boosters, implants, bonuses from command ship for sensor strength. what else?

On the other hand scanning cosmic signatures for exploration even easier now!

It is about bring your "unscanable" ship(s) to the cutting age now in terms of been very, very difficult (and time consuming) to be scanned.Sig radius decreasing boosters, crossed remote ECCM boosters, implants, bonuses from command ship for sensor strength. what else?

On the other hand scanning cosmic signatures for exploration even easier now!

Oooo, ty =) yeah, that means i'll probably be done with level 5s that take anything longer than 2 minutes to complete.

What about a proteus with 4 ECCM or a bomber with 2?

How easy are those to scan out? Also, can you tell me how easy it is to scan things out without the implants? I'd do the legwork myself but I'm at work.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Why?

Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

You guys are so full of ****. It's actually sad really. These unprobable ships still risked being caught at gate camps, and stations. I do not understand CCP's policy/crusade to completely destroy every which way possible to make a decent buck/isk in this game. What is it to you guys? Oh wait, if we buy more plex's from you guys, you make more money. I got ya now. It has nothing to do with balance in game, but the balance in ccp's bank account. Go preach elsewhere, your logic isn't really logic, but an excuse to try and make you guys more money.

Is it possible that CCP might actually WANT to limit the mission iskfaucet? Besides PLEX sales, limiting ISK flow might make your caps (SCs!!) a little more exclusive. It seems to me that CCP would rather not have 200 SC hotdrop fleets around every corner. Then again I might just be another cog in the machine trying to harsh your easy iskies.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

Why?

Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.

My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.

Is it possible that CCP might actually WANT to limit the mission iskfaucet? Besides PLEX sales, limiting ISK flow might make your caps (SCs!!) a little more exclusive. It seems to me that CCP would rather not have 200 SC hotdrop fleets around every corner. Then again I might just be another cog in the machine trying to harsh your easy iskies.

Well the best way to help nerf the super cap blobs is to move ice to lowsec / 0.0 that'd make them way more costly. Also, they NEED to rebalance Supers and Titans, because honestly they're stupid OP.

Originally by:CCP DropbearEdited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.

I'm one of those 0.0-missionrunners-in-hostile-space and was one of the first to use the Tengu for that purpose. During the years I lost quite a lot Tengus despite being unprobable. It happened on gates to systems without stations (no way to refit a cloak), it happened due to bubbles (bouncer-bubble-traps) when I didn't use a interdiction nullifier and to many other mistakes.

And it happens to sensor boosted artillery-alpha-strike station campers (when the undock-angle is inappropriate and it takes 2-3 seconds to enter warp). Example: killmailI was hard to catch, but this guys apparently knew EVE better than you and found ways to regularly kill me anyways. Now they won't kill me anymore a singe time. Why ? Because I'm not dumb enough to do missions in a permanently hostile space, when I can be probed. The other Tengu-pilots won't be as well, you effectively removed that option from game.

Congratulation Sir, you not only ruined my 0.0-missionrunner-gameplay but also deny 0.0 local inhabitants some regular Tengu kills. Do you really believe, you just "improved" EVE ?

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