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What About Propane?

By Alison Davis September 17, 2007 4:46 pmSeptember 17, 2007 4:46 pm

On Sept. 7, when I wrote about my lust for the Viking range, a loyal reader named Robyn commented: “I doubt you have a gas line where you’re building (but don’t know). If you don’t, stick with electric. The alternative is a propane tank buried in your front yard, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me in an area with a high water level.”

Robyn’s comment made me realize that I hadn’t written on this subject yet. Here goes: When Paul and I first went to Anna Maria, we rented a house that I thought had a gas range. This gave me the impression that Anna Maria had natural-gas lines. (I’m guessing the house we rented had a buried propane tank.)

So I started fantasizing that I would finally be able to have a professional-quality dual-fuel (gas cooktop, electric oven) range. For years I’ve had an electric cooktop. Although it’s great for safety reasons — it’s hard for pasta-making teenagers to burn down the house — it’s less than inspiring to cook on. Put a pot of water on a burner, leave the house, go grocery shopping, come back, put the groceries away and only then is the water coming to a boil.

That’s why I was so disappointed when John the builder gave me the bad news: no gas on Anna Maria Island.

“But you could get propane,” he suggested. “Get a 250-gallon tank buried in the front yard, and it could power your stove, the pool heater and your barbecue grill.”

Intriguing. But, other than the little white tanks for barbecue grills, what did I know about propane? Some questions:

Is it as powerful as natural gas? (Do you get the same cooking performance for a cooktop as you do with natural gas?)

Is propane more expensive than electricity, less expensive, or about the same?

Is propane better for the environment than electricity or worse?

Are there any safety issues?

Do you have to worry about getting the tank refilled or does the propane company monitor that? (Do you ever run out of propane?)

Propane is less powerful than gas. But, what about induction? This is green energy, it is as fast reacting as gas, it is the safest heating source, as only the food gets hot and the pot (from the food) gets hot. The immediate surrounding area does not get hot. A piece of paper lying just nearby will not catch on fire. Extremely energy efficient, safe, and fast responding, induction is THE hottest (excuse the pun) heating technology around right now, and I believe Viking has it in their line of products, I’m sure of it.

It used to be that you only had to choose from heavy, iron, pots. Now, many big name brands have brought out lines of pots and pans just for induction cooking. Check it out! No more hot stove cooking in Florida, if cooking via induction.

Is it as powerful as natural gas? (Do you get the same cooking performance for a cooktop as you do with natural gas?)
— Almost. We just had a DCS professional range installed. The 17,500 BTU NG burners are ~15,000 BTUs with liquid propane (LP).

Is propane more expensive than electricity, less expensive, or about the same?
— It doesn’t track according to electricity at all. LP is a byproduct of gasoline processing and its price rises and falls about the same. We suspect rising gas prices simply provide the LP companies a handy opportunity to gouge, but that’s a theory. However, 10 years ago our LP cost 94 cents a gallon. On our last bill, $2.35/gallon.

Is propane better for the environment than electricity or worse?
— It depends on where you get your electricity. We buy our electric from Maine Interfaith Power and Light, which brokers renewable energy sources for its electric customers. Much of the electricity in the U.S. is created via coal-fired plants–the biggest mercury and carbon polluters on the planet.

Are there any safety issues?
— Yes, the tank can blow up. Although I’ve not heard of this happening. In our state you cannot bury the tank, it must be above ground and a specific number of feet from the house.

Do you have to worry about getting the tank refilled or does the propane company monitor that? (Do you ever run out of propane?)
— The propane company monitors it. Although twice we have run out of gas and had to call, they come right away and usually they don’t let it run out. Once they gave me a nice gift certificate too, when they let it run out accidentally.

Is propane an effective and efficient way to heat a pool?
— Many people in Maine heat pools with LP. There are few sources of NG here.

Propane is very common around me. Here, we don’t bury the tank; it’s put in the back yard (we call it “the pig”)

I can speak to the following from my research. (I’ve used propane stoves at friends’ houses.)

Same cooking experience as natural gas — yes

Price — more expensive than natural gas, less expensive than electric for cooking. Not sure about heating. Robyn? The future of pricing — that’s anyone’s guess.

Do you have to monitor supply — yes, unless Florida providers differ greatly from those in Michigan. And you have to schedule refills — it’ll become a regular task you’ll do the way you do other seasonal chores.

I once thought that propane gas was, well, backward. I couldn’t believe that people in this country had to do that! But then, I used to also think that no one in this country would ever live on a dirt road, either. I know better, now. And a *lot* of those folks who live on dirt roads use propane.

Robyn, though, mentions underground storage — with a high water table? Ask John about that, too.

Gas is great for cooking. Propane is more expensive than natural gas, but way less expensive than electricity for heating.

Propane burns hotter than natural gas, but your stove will have a regulator that your installer will adjust so that the flames are set up correctly.

Gas is more efficient than electricity for a clothes dryer, so you should look into a gas clothes dryer if you install propane.

For your pool heater, when you eventually have a pool, I’d suggest solar heating. Solar heaters have the nice advantage that they can also be solar coolers. If your pool gets too hot, you run the pump at night and you can cool off the pool somewhat.

Ah, finally a topic where I location should not make much of a difference and my advice actually valued.

I have a dual fuel cook stove (propane burners, convection electric oven). It works well. I would not know if it is different than natural gas but I don’t know why it would be. My biggest burner is 12,000 BTU (I think) and that is plenty for a stir fry.

Our two barbecue sized propane tanks sit on the ground on the other side of the outside kitchen wall. They are arranged so that when I run out of fuel on one, I go outside and open up the other tank and change the usage to that tank by turning a contraption (not unlike what you have on a faucet with two hoses and made for the purpose.) One tank lasts about 5 months. Even an enthusiastic cook, which I am not, would not have to change the tank more than every 2 or 3 months. We make sure to take the empty tank to be refilled immediately and hook it up at once, as well. That way running out of fuel is a non-issue.

The stove is great as it works during power outages. We have many on the island where I live. My stove is a Kenmore and I am completely satisfied with it.

To bury a 250lbs propane tank is dramatic overkill if all you are going to use the gas for is your stove. Remember, you will have to provide access to the refilling tank truck also. However, a large propane tank would have some sort of gauge, I am sure.

I cannot imagine that there are any more issues for you with propane tanks for the stove even if you have to keep them on a deck. I may be wrong on that one and some people are funny with propane. Of course, the only situation where you could hook the stove up without added issues is if your stove is on an outside wall that also has a deck. You can build a nice little cover for the propane tanks. Well come to think of it, you could have long lines running up to the stove also, and keep the tanks on the ground same as what you would have to do if you had an underground tank.

Our island is full of stoves that run on propane as the power outages are so frequent in the winter storms. I know of no one who finds it necessary to have a huge tank for this purpose. People with propane fireplaces do have large tanks filled by a truck.

Propane is an effective and efficient way to heat a pool. Although solar apparently is just as good – and more correct environmentally. (As between propane and electric – I’d say it’s probably a draw environmentally – depends what your electric supplier uses to generate electricity).

At least here – propane doesn’t make sense economically unless you’re planning to use it for the main job of pool heating – and secondary uses like a stove – a grill – and/or a water heater. If you have a pool heater – you have a propane tank. If you don’t have a pool heater – you go all electric (unless you absolutely positively must have a gas range and are ready to pay up and suffer for your art).

I suggest contacting the local gas supplier in your area to get all the particulars – because the particulars on AMI may differ from those elsewhere. At least here – the gas company was good about coming around on a regular basis and keeping the tank full (we had a propane tank for our pool heater – range – and water heater in the house we rented for 18 months when we first moved here).

One consideration that might apply in your case is there are certain precautions you have to take with gas before and after a storm (I don’t know exactly what they are – we let the rental manager take care of those things – after all – it wasn’t our house). If you don’t plan to be in Florida during hurricane season – I’d find out exactly what you have to do to make sure the house is ok during hurricane season – and whether there would be any problems dealing with those things in absentia.

A disclaimer. I am not a big fan of gas. There is something about having something “on fire” in the house all the time that puts me off. Guess I have had too many years of all-electric living (smile). And you should be able to get an electric range that has better fire power. I can bring about 10 quarts of pasta waster to a boil in a covered pot in about 15 minutes.

FWIW – our neighbors did a major remodel a few years ago. They had a propane tank which only ran to the pool heater – and they ran a new line to power a gas stove. So I know this is something you can add after the fact. What it costs after-the-fact (as opposed to an original installation) – especially in a multi-story house – I don’t know. So this is probably something you want to discuss with the gas company.

Finally – much as some people hate the idea of a microwave over a stove top – I hate ovens under a stove top. Nothing like getting your head/hair near a hot burner when you’re bending down to baste something in the oven. So whether you go gas or electric on the stove-top – I’d go with a wall oven or ovens – double regular – regular plus microwave – whatever). YMMV.

And another question I’d ask. I absolutely love my glass cook top. Easy as pie to keep clean (I’m a big fan of spending more time cooking than cleaning – or doing anything else instead of cleaning). I know there are sealed gas cook tops these days. Also – I would assume – easy to clean. But do you have to give up any “firepower” if a gas cook top is sealed (seems that that would be the case – but I really don’t know)? Robyn

Robyn and others. Sealed gas stoves have a glass top and only the burner protrudes. Easy as pie to clean the top and the pot supports above the burners can go into the dishwasher for cleaning. A modern gas stove top has no flame unless it is called upon to heat something. There is absolutely no smell from mine nor is something always “on fire”. I have had a smooth topped stove also and found it great other than for stir fries. I had to have an electric wok. With my gas top I have to use a device when I need to simmer something for hours or it will burn. Those devices are readily available and work well.

Every cook will have a particular preference based on experience and cooking style. I bake a lot of bread and would hate a gas oven. The dual fuel stove is perfect for my needs. I don’t mind the oven under the cook top at all as it saved me a bunch of cash and gave me more room counter and cabinet space.

At our beach house, we use propane gas for heat, hot water, and the fireplace. Our tank is buried out back. We are less than 2/10 of a mile from the ocean, but the water table was not an issue. Our community is supposed to be getting gas, so we got propane and planned to convert. Eight years later, the gas lines are still in the planning stage.

We have a monitor hooked up to our phone and to the tank in some manner…installed by the propane company. It is a 12″ by 6″ box which calls into the propane company every morning to report on the amount of gas in our tank.

Alison, if you have an older electric stove, you may be surprised at what the newer models can do. I almost destroyed one of my daughter’s pots trying to boil water on her new Frigidaire stove–left it for a ten minutes on medium and when I got back the burner was red-hot and the water was all gone. Oops. Ten minutes on my eight-year-old stove and the water is just lukewarm.

I’ve had the dual-fuel Viking range you’re considering for 6 years now, running on propane, and I love it. The only thing you need to worry about is to make sure the dealer/installer knows you plan to use propane, not NG, since the burner nozzle adjustment is different. I spoke to a Viking rep before making the purchase & he told me that while the stove couldn’t get to its theoretical max heat on propane, it got very close and I’d never miss the extra BTU’s from NG – he was right. I can do any very high-heat application with ease (in fact I had to re-learn how to cook certain things as I became used to more power than any electric cooktop I’ve ever owned). One final testimonial – two friends who’ve often cooked in my kitchen have now invested in the idential range, running propane. Our supplier delivers automatically – we have never run out.

I’ve had 2 glass topped electric cooktops and hated them both. Despite the marketing claims and others’ experience, I found them prone to scratching, and once scratched they are much less attractive and harder to clean. My sister bought one despite my caution, and regrets it, for the same reason.

Thekitchendesigner suggested induction, and I do suggest you consider it. I had a JennAire induction cooktop when they first came out and found it very powerful and responsive. Unfortunately it wasn’t reliable though that’s probably changed considerably. I would have considered induction when I remodeled 6 years ago, but I was in love with the Viking. Still am.

No, you don’t give up any cooking power because the gas cook top is sealed.

Mine (and I suspect most, if not all) has an electric start, rather than a pilot light, so there is no constant flame in these newer ones.

Electric start means they need a match to light during a power outage, but they still work. That made all the difference this past February when husband was gone and we lost power for a week. I was able to keep the house temp high enough to keep pipes from freezing by running the burners all day. The cats and I had to bundle in mutliple layers under multiple blankets, but we didn’t have to worry about the pipes. Husband came home before temps went below freezing and started the generator. (I tried …)

P&A — We are paying to have the gas line brought in to our house by ourselves — it’s not provided by the developer, because he wants to push everyone who buys in to use geothermal. Our lot, however, borders on the road, and a gas main is smack dab in the middle of our lot line, so it’s an expense we can afford, but not inexensive, by any means. The next folks who buy in won’t be as lucky.

I applaud A&P on their approach to kitchen design, be it intentional or not. I was designing a kitchen not too long ago, and to help me identify my likes and dislikes I visited several kitchen showrooms in NJ, NY, and CT. I saw many beautiful displays and spoke with many experienced kitchen designers. HOWEVER, NOT ONCE IN ALL MY TRAVELS DID I WALK AWAY WITH A CLEAR IDEA OF WHETHER I COULD AFFORD A NEW KITCHEN (my kitchen is roughly the size of A&P’s). The closest I could come to an estimate was “approximately $50,000″, or “somewhere between $40,000 and $70,000″. On the other hand, pricing out appliances, faucets, and sinks was straightforward. After a few weeks I was able to put together a list of appliances and determine a cost. It wasn’t until I visited IKEA and Home Expo that I had a sense of what the differences in cabinetry could cost. There, before your very eyes, are displays of kitchens and their costs per square foot. I could see what granite, for instance, cost on a counter 8′ long, and what 4′ of upper glass cabinets cost (vs. no glass). And I wondered: why couldn’t I see this in a higher-end kitchen showroom?

“The particulars are unique to each individual”, I was told by one kitchen showroom designer; “the types of drawers and inserts vary, and cannot be priced until I get a better sense of your needs and receive a deposit”, I was told by another. And so, like the architect who promises he can design a $300,000 house for A&P, to the builder who says he could do it for $600,000, the kitchen designer will promise a $50,000 kitchen, KNOWING THAT THE CLIENT’S TASTES AND DESIRES FOR CABINETRY WILL MORE REALISTICALLY COST $70,000. Because, after paying the architect an initial $25,000, only to realize that your house is going to cost more, and after finishing the framing with your builder, only to realize the interior trim and other allowances are going to cost more, and after giving the kitchen designer a retainer, only to realize your kitchen is going to cost more, AND AFTER SPENDING MONTHS, IF NOT YEARS, DESIGNING YOUR DREAM HOUSE, ONLY TO REALIZE IT’S GOING TO COST MORE, WHO WOULD TURN BACK?

It is a pity that these design professionals sugar-coat actual costs until you cannot turn back. There is not one reason why a kitchen showroom display can’t include a price tag (even if it had been designed four years ago, or contains upscale features that most would not choose.) Kitchen showrooms know how much their displays cost to install. Why not reveal what it would cost you?

There is no doubt that invaluable design ideas will come from a kitchen designer, but I caution A&P about working with one. If A&P are concerned about working within a budget, I’m afraid that only at the likes of Home Expo and Ikea will they get a true sense of what their kitchen will cost.

(P.S. I ended up paying a local cabinet maker $40,000 to construct my kitchen. In hindsight, and after much research, I believe that the six “estimates” I received from various kitchen designers in NJ, NY and CT would have cost me in excess of $75,000 in custom cabinetry.)

If you’re a serious cook, gas, or possibly induction, is the only way to go. Electric is for those who are more interested in spotless kitchens than those who care about what they cook, IMO. So it depends on you. This refers to the cooktop–for the oven, electric is best. If you have wall space, I suggest a gas cooktop or better a slide in top paired with an electric wall oven. Reason for the slide in is so you can have the knobs on the front not the top, making cleaning much easier.

If you’re really a serious cook, forget Viking and go for a Bluestar. Best cooking performance available in a residential top. Do wok cooking with ease with their 22k burners. OTOH, if your main desire is to impress your friends who read kitchen magazines, go with Viking—much of what you will pay goes to cover their product placement costs which is why you see them so often in those magazines. Again, it all depends on you.

Forgot to mention, propane is fine. Very slightly less heat performance, but it won’t be noticeable as a practical matter. Bury a small tank and use propane for as many things as possible–cooking, fireplace, BBQ, hot water, even heat if you need it there. The gas delivery man will take care of you just fine.

I would go with “clean burning propane” as Hank Hill puts it. More than likely you can get it piped for free or almost free if you sign a multi-year agreement with the provider. You may get a better rate or credits if you go propane on multiple appliances. If you go with it for hot water, use tankless like Rinnai mounted on outside of house for easier venting. The tanks come with shut off break away valves so if something did happen with it during a storm, the tank would shut itself off and not leak. Usually, the tank is filled twice a year given your probable use. I have a 250 gallon tank buried and use it for hot water, cooking, gas grill connection, log lighter for fireplace, and dryer. Its great when the power goes out and I can still cook and have hot water. I would say my annual cost has averaged $650.00 a year over the last 5 years. An electric HW heater would have cost about $440/year to operate by itself.
Ken G.

In our Ponte Vedra Beach home, we have a “pig style” (thanks, Carol *gg*) gas tank in a nook alongside the house. It runs the range, the pool and water heaters and a gas grill in the yard. When we remodel, I’ll have an electric wall oven instead of the range because 1. I hate ranges and 2. gas stoves tend to not heat as evenly as electric ones.

As for bending down to the stove – here in Germany we often have built-in ovens under the cooktop, but the newer models open like a drawer with the pans attached to the front. That’s very convenient.

I have glass cooktops since more than 20 years and never had any issues with them. Even after 10 years, the last one looked like brand new when we gave it away. It may depend on the glass quality, though, as I have also seen scratched cooktops in vacation homes in the U.S. (but who knows how renters have treated them).

My experience is the opposite of Gerry’s. I’ve had them all: real natural gas, elderly electric, propane-fed gas and now new electric. I’d say that propane will have the great charm of matching the very slow performance of your elderly electric stove, especially with respect to boiling water–although perhaps the technology has improved. (Mine was bought about 15 years ago). When we renovated our current house four years ago we had no doubt that we wanted electric and we still love it–heats fast, cools down fast. The new stoves are really very different from whatever it is you have. If you don’t like smoothtop (I do) you can get one with visible coils.

A lot of this is personal preference–but PLEASE do the research. You can subscribe to Consumer Reports on line and learn a lot there. Making a decision based on your experience with an obsolete stove really isn’t wise.

Regarding the environmentalism of propane: it has to be delivered by truck, so the “carbon footprint” of propane as a complete system is many, many times that of either gas or electric. So obviously, there is substantial negative benefit to the environment from using propane. If you consider yourself anything of an environmentalist, you’ll drop the propane issue immediately.

I’m not sure Geoffrey is correct about propane being bad environmentally vs gas or electric. A short trip thru the web seems to say that is not correct. It is hard to imagine anything worse than an energy whose source is coal, for example. I haven’t the time to really research this.

Wrong, Geoffrey. Do a modicum of research on the environmental effects of coal-fired electricity and then come back.

Helen: you make your own point. A 15-year-old propane stove really is not comparable to those available today. What counts as far as heating water quickly is BTUs. 15,000 will heat up a pot of water faster than you can believe.

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They've found an idyllic tiny town in Florida, they've bought a piece of land and now Paul B. Brown and Alison Davis are setting out to build their dream house. How hard can it be, they wonder, even though they live 1,500 miles away, they've never built a home before and they don't know anything about architects, builders, local zoning laws or financing? On this blog for Great Homes, they recount their successes and failures and will chronicle their adventures to come.