Eric wrote:Don't like it? Don't go. Seriously. It's not a corporation, you're not a shareholder, the only way you have any input in the LLC is it to either not buy a ticket so they don't get your money or volunteer and work to change it from within.

You've already said that you're too busy to volunteer (typical), so don't buy the ticket. Its pretty much your only option.

This is such a bullshit "America Love it or leave it" answer. There aren't only two options here. I don't have to be a worshiper of the LLC like most of the people in this thread. I also don't have to hate it. I don't hate the event. I enjoy the event. There are some big issues though, and they do deserve consideration.

Just so we're clear on where I am coming from: I think the BRC LLC does an excellent job of minding the terms of their BLM contract. But the BLM isn't the only one they have a contract with. They have sold tickets to an event, and that means a reasonable person should have some reasonable expectations about what they have paid for. 5 hour entry lines, in my opinion, is not reasonable. zero wait time, while it would be great, would also be an unreasonable expectation. 1 hour to get in, that is a reasonable expectation.

its a private business - they do what they want in the manner they see fit.

mdmf007 wrote:its a private business - they do what they want in the manner they see fit.

This discussion reminds me a lot of Blockbuster. At one time Blockbuster was really the only game in town when it came to national video rental chains. Sure there was Hollywood Video, and a few other smaller chains, but none had the market dominance that Blockbuster had. And as a result Blockbuster could arrange exclusives, further locking out the competition.

Blockbuster didn't treat their customers very well. They had outrageous late fees that were more than the rental. They treated the customer as though they were replaceable, and sure enough, they were replaceable.

And then Netflix comes along. Suddenly there is a real alternative to dealing with Blockbuster and their shitty customer service policy.

The thing is, if Blockbuster had been nice to their customers even when they were at the top they probably would have retained a loyal customer base. But, who would be loyal to Blockbuster after how that company treated their customers?

My point is that ticket holders that create camps, and installations are really customers of BRC LLC, and if BRC LLC wants to survive in the longterm they should be thinking about the next Burning Man type event that could be just around the corner and whether or not that'll draw away the talented people that make Burning Man the fun event it is.

This has been and will always be a volunter event. The wait at the gate is not the fault of BMorg its from not enough volunteers. Once you start paying people at the gate than it will become an expectation from rangers, air port, dmv, post office or any other volunter opperation to be paid. Can you imagine the finacial liabilty of employees to a company on the playa? Larry will have to raise the ticket price to levels even I can't afford if he started paying employees. Really sounds like 1derphul does not understand the concepts of this kind of business.

1durphul wrote:And then Netflix comes along. Suddenly there is a real alternative to dealing with Blockbuster and [s]their shitty customer service policy.[/s] having to put down the Cheetos, hoist one's fat ass off the couch, get into the car and hit the brick and mortar.

1durphul wrote:And then Netflix comes along. Suddenly there is a real alternative to dealing with Blockbuster and [s]their shitty customer service policy.[/s] having to put down the Cheetos, hoist one's fat ass off the couch, get into the car and hit the brick and mortar.

Fix't

You say that, but Blockbuster started their own Netflix like service and still was unable to retain their customers.

Powderkeg was known for the most boring video selection in the universe and for producing its own censored versions.
Other video companies seem to have taken note of this.
They couldn't compete even against other stores.
They simply bought them out or gave up a healthy amount of profit.

They set up a store across the street from the biggest store in midtown here.
Since powderkeg had no beta, the other stores rentals of beta went to 50% of stock and their selection kept the vhs customers.
They finally bought them out for a huge sum.
Best thing that can happen to a good store was have powderkeg try to run them out of business.

I rarely found anything in a powderkeg I wanted to see, and when I did, they wouldn't play due to the over heavy use of macro, ie garbage on the tape.
So, refund.
Even had this happen with a copy of the Time Machine, 1961, I think.
Doubtless a big target for mass piracy.

My message to the hollywood lobby was that if I can't record over it or record from it, I won't pay for it.

They have been responsible for the lack of record capability on most new digital boxes.
Vote with your money.

Sometimes the wait to get out of the parking lots takes hours. It really pisses me off. But, I realize that I have a choice in the matter. I can continue to go and deal with it. Or stop going and not have to deal with it.

They are selling a service that I can either buy, or not.

Just because I pay them for that service does not entitle me to a voice about how they do their job. I vote with my credit card. That is all I can do.

Same thing here. You can write a letter and tell them how they can improve, but ultimately it is up to them how they run their business. All you can really do is vote with your wallet.

lambert13 wrote:I am a big NY Yankees fan. Love going to see games down in the Bronx.

Sometimes the wait to get out of the parking lots takes hours. It really pisses me off. But, I realize that I have a choice in the matter. I can continue to go and deal with it. Or stop going and not have to deal with it.

They are selling a service that I can either buy, or not.

Just because I pay them for that service does not entitle me to a voice about how they do their job. I vote with my credit card. That is all I can do.

Same thing here. You can write a letter and tell them how they can improve, but ultimately it is up to them how they run their business. All you can really do is vote with your wallet.

The problem is different in terms of the Yankees game. It is similar to exodus, where you go from from many lanes to 1. Entry goes from one lane to many.

Anyway, back to Blockbuster talk, much more interesting than the topic this thread started on.

lambert13 wrote:I am a big NY Yankees fan. Love going to see games down in the Bronx.

Sometimes the wait to get out of the parking lots takes hours. It really pisses me off. But, I realize that I have a choice in the matter. I can continue to go and deal with it. Or stop going and not have to deal with it.

They are selling a service that I can either buy, or not.

Just because I pay them for that service does not entitle me to a voice about how they do their job. I vote with my credit card. That is all I can do.

Same thing here. You can write a letter and tell them how they can improve, but ultimately it is up to them how they run their business. All you can really do is vote with your wallet.

Although, with Burning Man, you can volunteer your time and help to improve the situation with your insight and contribution.

[quote="stretch80]Although, with Burning Man, you can volunteer your time and help to improve the situation with your insight and contribution.[/quote]
Actually some of my suggestions have been implemented.
There is a format to submit ideas for afterburn consideration.

Stickygreen wrote:BM is raking in lots of cash, the anual budget that gets published is so padded, I can only imagine how many people need this event to happen for them to make money.

You know, this a wide variety of people on this board and not all of them can read the afterburns and see the padding. Perhaps you can help, take 8, 10 items from the 2009 afterburn report and tell us what they should be, what criteria you used to get the figures and maybe check that against firms that might do those sorts of services. I'm sure that a better educated population of burners would enhance the burn.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Stickygreen wrote:BM is raking in lots of cash, the anual budget that gets published is so padded, I can only imagine how many people need this event to happen for them to make money.

You know, this a wide variety of people on this board and not all of them can read the afterburns and see the padding. Perhaps you can help, take 8, 10 items from the 2009 afterburn report and tell us what they should be, what criteria you used to get the figures and maybe check that against firms that might do those sorts of services. I'm sure that a better educated population of burners would enhance the burn.

1durphul wrote:BRC LLC originally came into existence out of a need for an organized structure that the BLM/LEO's could interface with.

But what are they actually doing for the money we pay them annually?

To answer your first question- they do the same thing they've always done. Work with the BLM on permits & getting everything in order, and all the ground work to get the city infrastructure up & take it down (like those potties that are required for BMan to happen), and to make sure that the volunteers that you disdain so freely are there to run the airport, the medic tents, the rangers, the gate, the perimeter....

If there was no LLC there would be no event. Period. The BLM would never allow 60,000 people to just show up & party out there. Juplaya is already on their radar as it gets bigger, it may need to change in the near future as well.

Don't like it? Don't go. Seriously. It's not a corporation, you're not a shareholder, the only way you have any input in the LLC is it to either not buy a ticket so they don't get your money or volunteer and work to change it from within.

You've already said that you're too busy to volunteer (typical), so don't buy the ticket. Its pretty much your only option.

IF you ever need a second wife, Eric, please give me right of first refusal.
(love you)

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Eric wrote: but they have 50,000 voices shouting at them, not just yours, and they have their own agenda that may not mesh with yours.

And right here is, I think, a very good time to mention that you had a total melt down when members of the burningman tribe were yelling at you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it, and whatever credibility you might have gained by changing your name and posting thoughtful ideas is quickly running out.

Didn't the llc provide some protection and grief/crisis counciling for Comfort and Joy in, well, 07, wasn't it? You'd think someone who'd been through that wouldn't be so gleeful about referring to mass suicide.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Eric wrote: but they have 50,000 voices shouting at them, not just yours, and they have their own agenda that may not mesh with yours.

And right here, 1derful, is, I think, a very good time to mention that you had a total melt down when members of the burningman tribe were yelling at you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it, and whatever credibility you might have gained by changing your name and posting thoughtful ideas is quickly running out. Just think about the amount of yelling that went out at bm headquarters this week, and be grateful that you weren't on that end of the ticket hell.

Didn't the llc provide some protection and grief/crisis counciling for Comfort and Joy in, well, 07, wasn't it? You'd think someone who'd been through that wouldn't be so gleeful about referring to mass suicide.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Eric wrote: but they have 50,000 voices shouting at them, not just yours, and they have their own agenda that may not mesh with yours.

And right here is, I think, a very good time to mention that you had a total melt down when members of the burningman tribe were yelling at you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it, and whatever credibility you might have gained by changing your name and posting thoughtful ideas is quickly running out.

Didn't the llc provide some protection and grief/crisis counciling for Comfort and Joy in, well, 07, wasn't it? You'd think someone who'd been through that wouldn't be so gleeful about referring to mass suicide.

I have a different perspective of the events that lead to my decision to unseat myself as moderator than you do. I'll leave it at that.

The LLC offered the services of their (volunteer I believe) counseling team on playa. I don't know if anybody actually took them up on it. That would be a private matter between the counselor and the person(s) who took advantage of the offer. They were also dealing with a PR nightmare, compounded by the man burning early. 2007 was the year of PR doom for BM. There may have also been concerns about the potential for a lawsuit, I don't really know. So I have no idea how truly altruistic their decision making was.

I'm sure they offered Addis counseling. After all, that would have been truly altruistic.

That's not fair, expect somebody to forgive a guy who seems to be crazy, and destroyed your personal art piece. Then offering them (free volunteer, costs you nothing) services you have at your disposal is of course not something anybody could expect from the BRC LLC.