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Germany -Preliminary Planning 2 weeks in Sept/15

Myself and 3 friends are in the preliminary stages of planning a 2 week trip to Germany in September. My one friend was born in Ulm, but has never been back since moving to Canada as a young child. We have 15 days/15 nights (excluding flight days). My German friend wishes to spend a couple of days visiting her relatives while the rest of us spend some time on our own. My friend's relatives are just north of Ulm in Weidenstetten, and also in Kehn, on the west border by Strasbourg.
We are trying to figure out the logistics of our itinerary. We were thinking that it might make sense to fly into Munich, spend a couple days there, then travel on to the Ulm area, then Stuttgart (maybe the other 3 of us could spend some time there while our friend visits her relatives, or do day trips from the Ulm area). From there, travel across to the west border to Kehl (again she can visit a relative or 2 for a day), then we can travel down through the Black Forrest area and loop back across towards Munich with our return flight from there. We are all 50-something.
1: If we did this loop, would there be enough to keep us busy for 2+ weeks? or are we limiting ourselves too much?
2: Is there enough to keep the other 3 of us busy near both Ulm and Kehn?
3: We were thinking of using the train to get around - again, would this be limiting ourselves too much by not renting a car to get around? None of us is crazy about doing the driving - the only one that knows a little German, is our German -born friend. How easy is it to get around driving in Germany when you are not familiar with the language?

We welcome all comments or suggestions. We have as yet, not booked our flights but are very close to doing so.

Well there is no need ti make a circle. Flying open jaw - into the first city and out of the last - is no more expensive and avoids wasting a day. You can find this under multi-destination on many web sites.

You could fly into Munich and out of Frankfurt - or Basle - or wherever.

Can't comment on the specifics since I really don;t know Ulm or Stuttgart.

But why fly into Munich if you don;t want to see the castles and alps of Bavaria. And I would definitely not miss Strasbourg which is a wonderful city with tons to see/do - and the wine road down to Colmar.

1. You'll find lots to see and do. 2 weeks is good.
2. Not sure how long your friend will be in Ulm area, but yes, there's a good number of places you might visit. Ulm is especially advantageous as a base for small group travel. Ulm is a border town for two states - Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg - so you can travel on cheap day passes in both states (both of which surround Ulm) from there.

3. There could be a few places you might want to see but can not get to by train, but the daypasses also cover connecting buses in most cases. That said, the train network is quite dense and you shouldn't have too much trouble. Station signage is often in English, and Germans are often better at English than some native-born North Americans.

"You could fly into Munich and out of Frankfurt - or Basle - or wherever."

I think your loop is just fine. Why travel to Frankfurt to fly out if Frankfurt isn't in your plan? You have enough time for such a loop. When you exit the Black Forest and return to Munich, you can see completely different territory and towns along a more southerly route that skirts Lake Constance and the Swiss and Austrian borders.

Thank you for these tips, and yes, I meant "Kehl". Also, we intend to visit the Bavaria area, and plan to go back to Munich the southerly route as you mention above Fussgaenger.
Can anyone suggest how much time we might want to have in each of these areas and what are the "must sees"?
Should we be travelling up to Frankfurt or Heidelberg before coming back down the south/west area or do we have enough to do?
Also, I know a lot of time is wasted moving from one hotel to another, so to minimize time lost(especially if we do take the train), which areas and how long would you base yourself (considering 15 days timeframe)?

"Should we be travelling up to Frankfurt or Heidelberg before coming back down the south/west area or do we have enough to do?"

I think you have to be the judge of this. You know yourselves best and what interests you. Delve into the many options and see what you think. Below are only a few along the route you outlined previously.

Besides Stuttgart and Kehl, to the west, there's Strasbourg FR, the university town of Freiburg, Colmar FR and the many Black Forest towns. In the BF, train travelers will want to focus to two major scenic routes, the Black Forest Railway (Offenburg to Villingen and Donaueschingen) and the Hells Valley Railway (Freiburg to Donaueschingen) both of which connect towns of interest.

"Also, I know a lot of time is wasted moving from one hotel to another, so to minimize time lost(especially if we do take the train), which areas and how long would you base yourself (considering 15 days timeframe)?"

You are quite right about employing a base-town strategy. You'll need to secure rooms within reasonable distance of the train station in whatever towns you choose. But what towns those should be is hard to say until you decide exactly what places interest you the most.

Fussgaenger, you gave us a lot of helpful research info - hugely appreciated! After much research, we are likely going to rent a car instead of using train, it just seems it would be so much more convenient and add more flexibility to our trip.
We have booked our flights and are flying in/out of Munich. If we stay 2-3 days in Munich at the beginning of our trip, it seems logical that we should collect the car as we are leaving Munich. We are all getting together very soon to make a tighter plan of our intinerary.
I am thinking a couple of days in Munich, do a walking tour +/- a bike tour, day trip to Dachau (or would it be better doing that after leaving Munich with our car?) and does it make sense to pick up the car at the Munich airport (that means a trip back to the airport)- not wanting to drive in Munich...
From Munich, spend a day in Augsburg (is that enough time?) then onto Ulm/Weidensetten where my friend wants to spend a day with relatives (or drive up part of the Romantic Road prior to Ulm).
I have done some reading on the Romantic Road and wondering how to incorporate that into this part of our trip. ?drive north from Augsburg to Donauworth, Harburg, Nordingen, - is that far enough, or should we continue on to Dinkelsbuhl and Rothenburg, before heading south down the highway to Ulm? (spending a day here). How much time would we need for travelling up this portion of the Romantic Road? (and do some stopping along the way).
After a day in/around Ulm, we could drive up to Stuttgart or bypass Stuttgart and travel west across to Freudenstadt or Baden-Baden - or right across to Kehl (where my friend will spend another day with relatives). Maybe the remaining 3 of us could go across to Strasbourg while she visits.
Leaving Kehl, would it make sense to travel down the border to Colmar, and then over to Freiburg and spend a few days in the Black Forest area OR from Kehl, travel towards Wolfach, Haslach, Gutach, Waldkirch, Freiburg, Titisee, Feldberg, Todtrau, Staufen, Blechen (spend a couple of days in this area).
Next travel east towards Lake Constance, maybe stay in Meersburg, visit?Ravenburg?Lindau. Travel to Fussen and Neuschwanstein. Return to Munich to fly out - if we stayed near Neuschwanstein, how long would it take to get to Munich airport, or should we travel up to Schongau or Landsberg to stay the night before we fly out? - we need to be to the airport by 10:30am to deposit the car and check in.
I just want to know if it sounds like this is too much for 15 days/15 nights (not including travel time)? What parts would you leave out? or change?
Is it necessary to book hotels/B&B (4 of us) ahead of time, other than our initial 2-3 nights, and our last night? Do you think it will be difficult to get accommodation the day of - was thinking we would have so much more flexibility if our accommodations aren't in stone...
Greatly appreciate anyone's comments or suggestions!

Throwing one more thing in - my friends are interested in doing a Rhine Cruise- and it looks like the place to do this is somewhere between Koblenz to Mainz -if we went to Ulm from Munich, then up the Romantic Road to Wurzburg, then west to Mainz for a day cruise, then drive straight south to Baden-Baden and Kehl/Strasbourg, then spend some time in the Black Forest etc.,before making our way west enroute to Fussen, is that doable, or is this way too much travelling/moving/territory covered in too short a time??

"... we are likely going to rent a car instead of using train, it just seems it would be so much more convenient and add more flexibility to our trip... is this way too much travelling/moving/territory covered in too short a time??... was thinking we would have so much more flexibility if our accommodations aren't in stone..."

I think you got this wrong. Sounds like what you have right now is a whole lot of ideas and a whole lot of driving around on your plate. Sounds more like a lengthy amusement ride - maybe without the amusement. Nobody wants to drive, you said. And I don't think riding in the back seat over so many miles will be much fun. By choosing the car I think you are just avoiding a little decision making and planning...

I suggest you decide where to stay now. With 4 involved, you don't want to be deciding and hunting down rooms on the run - there's nothing "flexible" about being forced to spend time doing that, and you'll have enough decisions to make with your friends already as to where you'll go, when, where you'll eat, etc... no more stress is needed.

You can work out something doable. You don't have to travel the whole Romantic Road - it's not a very interesting drive - or see every RR town or every Black Forest location.

If you're going to the Rhine, well, it's a great place to go, but you should absolutely spend more than a day there.

Here's an itin. suggestion with base towns. Pin down your nights in these places - THEN you will have all sorts of flexibility to decide what to see and do during your stay.

Munich, Dachau: Maybe 3-4 nights with Neuschwanstein as a day trip (which I don't recommend at all but it's on your list and the list of every other tourist.)

The train will get you to all these places efficiently and will be insanely cheap for 4 of you. Plan on maybe €10 - €15 each per travel day sharing a day pass. You can just enjoy the scenery, relax and hang out with each other instead of navigating, etc.

Forgot to mention... Spend your last day on the Rhine or Mosel. Then travel to Munich for your last night. Figure 5 hours from Boppard to Munich - leave Boppard around 4 pm, arrive 9 pm. For this trip you want a pre-purchased ticket on high speed trains. 4 people can do this trip for less than €90 total price if purchased well in advance from DB.

Don't know your travel dates but if you're on the Rhine over a weekend you will want to get rooms in Boppard (or other Rhine towns) soon. There are popular wine fests with fireworks every weekend and rooms are in scarce supply at the last minute.

Thank you Fussgaenger - you made me laugh out loud AND have made me think hard about the driving vs train travelling! I truly value your comments and am taking them to heart.
And I totally agree about the decision-making - and already knew it was a no-brainer that we need to book for 4 people... I remember travelling via car in northern Scotland without reservations and there were only 2 of us - most of the time we were pretty lucky, but once or twice it got stressful (and it wasn't prime tourist time) - AND it does take away time from actually touring around...
I like pretty much all of your suggestions, and coincidentally, I was reading about Burg Eltz this morning on another posting just prior to reading your responses and it sounded like a really great place to visit and hike into -thanks for the websites - would like to do the hike through the wooded trail from Moselkern - am assuming we could take a train there...
I have done more research on the train passes and see that we can get "twin" German Rail Passes from Canada - I am just not clear if it can be used on ANY train? They give pricing for 7($828) or 10($1062) times used in a month, or 15($1302) continuous days (Canadian) for 2 people - 1st class (site won't give me 2nd class price). I also looked at the DB Bahn ticket site but having a little more trouble navigating it (I know the 1st person pays a much higher price than the next 4 people)- so quite a deal. But it looks like we'd have to buy individual tickets as we went as opposed to having the Germany Rail Pass but not sure. Considering transport in the Black Forest area is free - wondering which kind of pass would be most useful/economic for use. And is the DB priced like that for ALL trains of just certain ones??
Also, if we did your suggested itinerary, we would be arriving in Munich over a weekend, the Black Forest area over a weekend, Rhine area ?Tues/Wed/Thurs (would be sad to miss the fireworks!)and last night in Munich a Friday.
Thanks again for all the suggestions and I especially liked your comment about the amusement park... so true...

Also, if travelling by train, would it be best to get accommodations near the train station or close to the city centres? Thinking about the luggage...
Additionally, does the high speed train from other cities stop at the Munich Airport, or would it go straight into Munich main station? Was thinking it would be best to get a hotel close to the airport for departure convenience and if returning from another city by train, how would this work?

Raz1024
If you'll look at my post 3 weeks in Germany, you'll see, Fussbaenger has also helped me. After a month of planning, I've finally nailed down a flight, itinerary, and 3 of 4 hotels. Hope it helps!

Rough estimate for all these journeys with day passes: €290 if all 4 are traveling. You use regional trains only, not high-speed equipment. It won't slow you down much and it will save you a ton. (Augsburg - Ulm, for example, 70 minutes vs. 45 min.; Munich - Augsburg will be 45 min. vs. 30 min. On some of your trips, no high-speed trains are possible anyway.)

Black Forest day trips = free

Two journeys are pretty long and would be better with normal tickets on the faster trains:

Kehl/Gengenbach to Rhine (Boppard)(maybe €90 for all 4)
Boppard to Munich (maybe €90 for all 4)

So I see your group doing this whole loop for under €500. I believe your railpass deal will cost €2,000+, correct?

You would want to nail down the two long journeys and pre-pay them to get that good price. The day passes... just pick them up from a ticket machine at the station as you go for whatever number of travelers are in your group that day. They never sell out.

Thanks for helping with the info on the trains. Can you tell me how you got the figure of 90Euro for 4 of us on the faster trains for the longer trips -the figure I get is around 200 euro for the 4 of us using Boppard to Munich as an example on a Friday afternoon at 1600.
How do you get the better rates - thanks!

Tickets go on sale 91 dates in advance for a specific date in the future. So if you are traveling in September, then 91 days before your travel date - sometime in May, in other words - you should be able to snag a price similar to the one I just found now for May 8. If you delay, prices will go up as tickets sell.

Thanks so much - now I get 89euro - I was putting a Friday in April! Such a difference if you know how to play it...
Also, when I enter Boppard, it gives about 8 different options for departure points - I have know idea what these all mean? Can you explain that?
And for destination, there is an option for Munich or Munich Airport T- what does Airport T mean? We do not have a super early flight on the Saturday, so would need to decide, does it make sense to train into Munich or to the airport - was thinking better to stay out of the city esp. at start of Oktoberfest and have researched cheaper hotels with shuttle service near the airport, however, if the train takes us right into Munich, might as well stay there for the night if this train does not take us right to the airport anyways?? Thanks again, you are very helpful!

"no" idea - you are right - a German's grasp of the english language is likely better than some of us...
Also, because of Oktoberfest starting the day we leave, need to book hotel soon - the prices are already much steeper at that time compared to earlier in the month.
The other thought I had was, would it be worth it to get back into Munich the day before, just to check out the Oktoberfest grounds, or would that just be stupid crazy.... As a group, we had decided to avoid the Oktoberfest thing and planned our dates accordingly, but now a few second thoughts (just a few..) about being so close to something "famous" that you hear about...

"Also, when I enter Boppard, it gives about 8 different options for departure points - I have know idea what these all mean? Can you explain that?" The DB sites loads different Boppard train stations and bus stops as well. Boppard's main station is Boppard Hbf. Hbf always means main station.

Munich Airport T T=Terminal

On your last travel day you can take a train either into Munich Hbf or to the airport (which likely involves a change of train in Munich Hbf) or to some other town nearby.

If you have the time there's no reason you can't stay outside Munich.

Freising is a 17-min. bus ride to the airport and a popular place to stay.

Landshut is a nice city and a 50-minute direct bus ride. Tickets are €13 each, I believe, from Landshut's train station.

Augsburg is a handsome Romantic Road city and 1.5 hours from MUC airport by train with a change in Munich Hbf. You might find room prices more reasonable here as well if prices near Munich and MUC are out of range. A Bayern tickt might get you from Augsburg to MUC by train most cheaply but it's valid only after 9 am on weekdays:

Thanks fussgaenger for all your help and advice, website info. After much discussion, we have decided to rent a vehicle for most of the trip (trip planning with 4 people is so much more challenging than only two!). Some of us have back issues, and the thought of moving our luggage in and out of trains helped make the decision. Appreciate all the tips you have given us and will put many into use. Have made a new posting with our proposed itinerary and are very close to finalizing our travel days/stops with some tweaking to do yet for sure.