"Those are thoughts of revenge that one should not harbor. That is from the Middle Ages."

Why do people saying this was revenge? First the same facts are true of any punishment, yet no country in the world allows murderers to go free as long as they promise not to do it again. Does that mean all punishment is revenge and therefore from the Middle ages?

"For European observers, these kinds of public gatherings [i.e., at the WTC after bin laden's death was announced] are indeed somewhat embarrassing, because they demonstrate a kind of unthinking naïveté, and also because there is something provocative about them. ... the photos of the revelers at Ground Zero have now become the definitive symbol of the entire nation's mood. That is something that cannot be changed, unfortunately."

I was a little embarrassed (that's too strong a word, but I can't think of another at the moment) at the "USA" chants and the flag waving.

I feel a lot better about it now that I know it offended pisants like this.

We should have pulled all our bases out of Germany two decades ago. The only facility arguably useful is Ramstein Air Base, though even there I'd argue that any foreign venture than absolutely needs Ramstein is a foreign venture we probably shouldn't be doing.

(Besides, Ramstein is a NATO installation, so for NATO related operations, we would still be able to use it.)

For European observers, these kinds of public gatherings [i.e., at the WTC after bin laden's death was announced] are indeed somewhat embarrassing, because they demonstrate a kind of unthinking naïveté,

Classic. I recall reading about a Morrisy concert in Ireland I believe and in between songs Morrisy let the audience know that Reagen died. Cheers and applause followed.

(The Crypto Jew) We should have pulled all our bases out of Germany two decades ago. The only facility arguably useful is Ramstein Air Base, though even there I'd argue that any foreign venture than absolutely needs Ramstein is a foreign venture we probably shouldn't be doing.

Wow, for a Joe, meaning incredibly handsome and smart you couldn’t be more wrong…much of our support for Afghanistan, Deseret Storm, and OIF can out of or thru Europe…UNLESS you think Infinite Justice, Desert Strom, or OIF were wrong….

I don't think you're following me. The term revenge carries a negative connotation which implies the act described isn't fully appropriate. Killing Bin Laden is not revenge because the act isn't disproportionate.

You’re hedging…implies, not fully appropriate…the only final judge of our acts is Yhwh, He will dis-integrate out actions and motivations for a final judgment…until then please stand on the issue, assassination of Usama good or not…stop hiding behind “weasel words” that rely upon a Yhwh-like ability to parse motives….”revenge” isn’t bad, necessarily…would killing be acceptable because he stole my game of “Life” as a teen, no…is revenge for 30,000-plus dead acceptable, yes.

(The Crypto Jew) The English language is nuanced. If you can't deal with that speak something else.

ALL languages are NUANCED Inuit has multiple words for “Ice”…because the state of the ice is critical to life and death on the pack ice…that “nuance” allows Inuits to communicate concepts effectively….nuanced designed to OBSCURE rather than ENHANCE understanding is bad….it’s fudging, it’s hedging….

We go through mainland Europe because it's convenient and the bases are there. We don't need them. We could easily go through other avenues. Right now, Qatar arguably is home to our most critical foreign bases.

Take a look at how many military bases we still have in Europe and Japan. Few are needed and most are a gargantuan waste of money.

Besides, I believe Afghanistan qualifies as one of the ventures we shouldn't be doing.

(The Crypto Jew) It's high time we closed bases in Europe, too. Long past high time.

Again Desert Strom, OIF…good or bad? If “bad” fine, then close the bases in Europe. If good, then no, don’t close the bases. Bases are for a PURPOSE, please define that purpose or the lack of purpose you see.

I served in Germany for three years. While a few of the smaller bases could be closed/reassigned to the German Army without much trouble, we definitely need the bulk of them. The bases in the U.K., Germany, Italy, etc. are for OUR benefit, not the Euros. Sure, they get the benefit of our presence, and have probably abused it, but we get to keep a spare U.S. military half way around the world. The location, the training opportunities, the deterrent effect, etc. all accrue to our benefit.

I also agree that much of our military in Germany and Japan is misplaced. A few of those army units should be in the fight rather than living in luxury. Germany can fend for itself, and its neighbors are now voluntarily in the exact type of arrangement that they fought against in the 20th century wars. We don't even need Germany for staging in our current war. I got here in Afghanistan via Kyrgystan, not Germany.

(The Crypto Jew) The term revenge carries a negative connotation which implies the act described isn't fully appropriate."

Who cares about “connotation”? You’re arguing like an English major…an act carries many “connotations” depending upon the audience that view it. Is revenge good or bad? Because now you’re using other people’s views to define the morality or immorality of an act…it’s like asking the Germans whether or not the Allied Bombing Campaign from 1940-45 was good or bad….who cares?

Lincoln, that's a legitimate point. Our presence and their weakness keeps the Euros subordinate to us. Just like Athens required its allies to provide hoplites and ships, or they could pay money instead, with the preference being to provide money. This allowed Athens to stay militarily dominant over their allies. This is a worthwhile purpose, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Well Skyler I’m not so sure of the analogy…I don’t think we want Europe militarily subordinate to the US, it IS…Libya case-in-point….Certainly the current European struggles in Libya highlight Europe’s military weakness, but I’m not sure that the US wanted this as a demonstration…I would argue it just kinda happened, due to confluence of foreign events (France and Britain’s oil contracts) and US domestic politics (Obama/Jarrett/Hillary in-fighting). The result has been a, mostly, Euro-intervention, with very little US support…and the results show. But again, I think this is a “bug” not feature of the policy…

I think "revenege" describes the state of feeling satisfaction over the act or outcome. Some think we shouldn't feel good about killing people like bin Laden and that it makes us a lesser person. I say, if it makes me a lesser person, fine. I can live with that.

The best thing about foreign bases, is that it gives young men a chance to screw some of the local foreign girls. Other than jumping out of airplanes it was the only thing that I liked about being in the Army.

Note that at one point I qualified mainland Europe. A few bases in England are sufficient.

Second, Qatar probably plays a more important role in Iraq and Afghanistan than Germany.

Finally, not I said "Afghanistan qualifies as one of the ventures we shouldn't be doing."

That's present tense. Afghanistan is a nation building nightmare with no end in sight. It would be cheaper to simply pay chieftans to keep the Taliban and al Qaida at bay (which is how we won the inititial engagement in the first place.)

Those are thoughts of revenge that one should not harbor. That is from the Middle Ages.

Middle Ages? Gosh, I don't think we have to go quite that far back to find examples of vengeance. In fact, within living memory there was a prominent German leader who responded quite vengefully when an attempt was made on his life. Tom Cruise made a movie about it.

Even if there are bases in foreign countries that have stategic value, I say that most have no strategic value whatsoever, even at a diplomatic level. Far too many are maintained because they are nice assignments. (What's perverse is that in order to justify many of these bases, work is essentially invented. There's a base in Japan that processes paperwork that could easily be done out of Hawaii or San Diego, but you have to justify the bureacracy somehow.)

(The Crypto Jew) That's present tense. Afghanistan is a nation building nightmare with no end in sight. It would be cheaper to simply pay chieftans to keep the Taliban and al Qaida at bay (which is how we won the inititial engagement in the first place.)

Sadly they don’t stay bought…and it isn’t just money…PRIOR to the “Initial engagement” the Taliban were on the verge conquering the entire nation. Simply leaving Afghanistan without serious nation-building runs the risk of returning to a 9/10 situation. I’m a realist enough to know Afghanistan isn’t going to look like New Jersey any time soon, but we need to stomp quite a few more Taliban heads before we leave.

The display of chauvinist pride after the enemy's CIC was killed was like the one for our 1980 Olympic Hockey Team which beat the USSR. The Germans are jealous. As for retribution being barbaric, that is the reverse of the truth. Mankind only has a civilized life because of enforcing the Death Penalty for murder. War is organized murder done for theft, and it draws a retribution which is the only way to end the thief's barbaric ways. (E.g., the Japanese Army units that conducted the "Rape of Nanking" was finally stopped by war waged against them on Guadalcanal by the USA's professional retribution Corps.

"There's a base in Japan that processes paperwork that could easily be done out of Hawaii or San Diego, but you have to justify the bureacracy somehow."

What base is this? What department? It is strange to me that ppwk is being shipped overseas for processing. Our main processing points are in MD, Illinois and Indiana (last I checked). There is no reason for "make work" at any military base, by the way. Training, whether general or specialized, can go on 24/7 for years and not a second of it would be wasted.

As for Desert Storm, keep in mind that it was within a handful of years from the fall of the "evil empire". For good reason, that was where our best armored units were stationed, and they were thus used in the offensive.

There are other Europeans who really don't want the Germans to rearm. Remembering that they were the major power on the other side in two World Wars, and if seriously rearmed, could again militarily dominate the western portion of the continent. The French, for good reason, are apprehensive. They got their rear ends kicked the last time they fought, and have one of the strongest militaries around there right now. But the apprehension also is there from some of the smaller countries, where the Germans honked on the way through, last time around.

But, as we are still seeing with Libya, no one there really has the military power to do much of anything any more, without our presence.

The public cheering was unfortunate, and showed a side of the American public that is disturbing.

Not to me. As I've traveled the world, I've wondered why other cultures can be proud of themselves - for almost any reason - but we have to watch ourselves for signs of patriotism. We killed a tyrant - we always kill tyrants - and we should be proud of it, happy about it, and willing to cheer their demise.

That's a fact, about almost everybody else, most Americans don't get - they think we're equals and their arguments are valid - when the truth is we're a superpower and the others will say just about anything to demoralize us, to make us question ourselves, to give them an opening to usurp us.

I cannot tell you how much this mentality annoys me. This form of cheap criticism of the US by Europeans, only to later jump on the footboard and let Americans give them a ride in security-political matters.

Well many libertarians and liberals would point out that the US does have an alternative:

Anyone who thinks Isolationism is the answer doesn't have a clue. First of all, it's impossible. Second, it's a juvenile reflex. You want to live in a country where Isolationism is a viable option? Move to the lowliest shithole on Earth. As long as we in the U.S. has wealth and power, others will be conspiring to take it away. The entirety of human history makes this point pretty clearly.

marshall is right about the connotation of the word revenge, and is saying that it's not revenge (when thinking of that word negatively) BECAUSE us getting OBL is in fact just.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge

Although revenge resembles some conceptions of justice, vengeance is usually depicted as more injurious and punitive as opposed to being harmonious and restorative. Whereas justice implies actions undertaken and supported by a legitimate judicial system grounded upon a foundation of ethics and morals of the authorities, revenge implies actions undertaken by an individual or narrowly defined group outside the boundaries of judicial or ethical conduct whose goal is to force a wrongdoer to suffer the same or greater pain than that which was originally inflicted to a party.That being said, sometimes revenge iS justice.

(The Crypto Jew) But Hamburg judge Heinz Uthmann went even further. He alleges that the chancellor's statement was nothing short of illegal, and filed a criminal complaint against Merkel midweek, the daily Hamburger Morgenpost reported Friday.http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-761077.html

Revenge is not a useful motive.When the US went into Afghanistan I was happy. Not because I thought they "deserved" to be invaded. I felt pretty much the same way I felt when I was cleaning the rats nest out of my garden shed. When I was done I sat in the sun, drank a beer, and was happier than I had been that morning.It wasn't such a big deal that I felt compelled to wave a flag, though.

I remember diving off of Borneo at Sipidan Island. I was there by myself (I was a poor college student but managed the scratch to get me there). There was an American guy with his wife. There was a Dutch guy and his wife.

Everthing was going great. Everone was a serious diver. At night we were hanging out in the Gilligans Island style kitchen, having some Tiger beers (nice and cold). The Dutch guy in particular had some great stories about diving in Irian Jaya, Flores, and Kommodo. Then the American guy made some comment about the United States that was slightly arrogant (like implying American exceptionalism), but was said as a dry joke. I forgot what it even was, it was that minor. But the Dutch guy was really offended. It was amazing.

And I have seen that time and time again overseas. What can you do? Speak softly and carry a big stick.

Now I do not think we have to apologize for anything. OBL killed thousands of Americans directly and perhaps hundreds of thousands of others (mostly muslims overseas) through the murderous acts of al Qaeda and its affiliates.

The Obama Administration should have said "we killed him, we buried him at sea, beyond that we have no comment." Give the critics nothing. Say nothing but that line and no comment.

Where's the "strawman"? I'm talking reality here. Say we leave Europe and Asia in order to "save money", or whatever other motive the Isolationists have today, and what exactrly will that achieve? Absolutely nothing but to make the world a more war-ravaged place and our country less influential in it. Try to think ahead a few years before you postulate undoing strategic decisions that have taken generations to realize.

"You don't make peace with your friends. You make peace with your enemies." If only we had someone with the vision of Obama or Hillary back then to reach out to Hitler to negotiate an honorable peace...How many lives would have been saved and what a pretty place the world would be now.

"But Hamburg judge Heinz Uthmann went even further. He alleges that the chancellor's statement was nothing short of illegal, and filed a criminal complaint against Merkel midweek, the daily Hamburger Morgenpost reported Friday.http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-761077.html"

OK, who, upthread, was arguing that we are being unfair by singling out the Germans?

To be fair original Mike, the Spanish have, recently, been, IMO, the most obnoxious and egregious…so we’ll see. Right NOW, the BRD has the lead, but it’s entirely possible some Spanish prosecutor will seek an indictment or warrant, and then SPAIN will move to the front of the pack in the race to be the most annoyingly self-righteous.

Exactly. In WW2 the British SOE created a plan to kill Hitler called Operation Foxly. The plan was shelved because the Allied Chiefs of Staff decided that Hitler alive was a bigger hindrance to the German war effort than Hitler dead.

Skyler wrote: We put them there [under our security skirts]

Yes, and they found that position very comfortable.

t-man wrote: [T]he guilt that was drilled into the Germans psyche has transformed into a sense of moral superiority.

On the nose, t-man. The Germans are big into this "superiority" thing in general -- beer superiority, car superiority, racial superiority... they need to be reminded of their history from time to time to keep that "superiority" thing in check. I can tell you some stories about barroom debates I had with Germans, most of them end with the German slinking off muttering "I wasn't even born then..."

The French, for good reason, are apprehensive. They got their rear ends kicked the last time they fought, and have one of the strongest militaries around there right now.

The French haven't been worth much militarily since Bonaparte went to Russia (and not a whole lot before he gave them a whiff of grapeshot...). It took a century to recover from that and they haven't gotten their mojo back yet.

The French haven't been worth much militarily since Bonaparte went to Russia (and not a whole lot before he gave them a whiff of grapeshot...). It took a century to recover from that and they haven't gotten their mojo back yet.

They are in the Cote D'Ivoire now-maybe they get their MoJo back.• Beyond joking I am not really a Cheese Eating Surrender Monkey type…but the fact that France suffered more combat casualties than any nation in WWI, either in gross or per capita terms, is irrelevant. Had it not been for the British Empire and the United States the Third Republic would have lost WWI. They certainly worked very hard to from 1914-17….only the advent of fresh US troops and Petain in command of the French Army saved their bacon.

But I agree, beating of the inhabitants of Cote D’Ivoire may restore their ability to frighten hungry, Third World children….

I think it was revenge for some people, and have thought that for those who made Bin Laden the centerpiece of everything that must have been it. It made me slightly uncomfortable. Other than that it seemed myopic - politically, morally, strategically, whatever. I distrust heat and tend to feel that justice should be cold.

"Reckoning" is an excellent word.

So is "pisant" for those clutching their pearls over a bit of celebration.

And lastly... every single person who had to look into a casket of a loved one, if they were *fortunate* enough to have that opportunity and doubly so if they were not, ought to have gotten to look also at the dead body of Bin Laden without some moral scold fussing about jingoistic triumphalism.

"For European observers, these kinds of public gatherings are indeed somewhat embarrassing, because they demonstrate a kind of unthinking naïveté, and also because there is something provocative about them."

"European* Observers" just gonna observe.

That's all they are: observers. Standing on the sidelines, the uninvited and unwelcome referees. Which is embarrassing, no doubt, especially given the naivete that comes from the lack of any er, recent, empirical knowledge. And it is provocative; it provokes contempt.

"For European observers, these kinds of public gatherings are indeed somewhat embarrassing, because they demonstrate a kind of unthinking naïveté, and also because there is something provocative about them."

Just wanted to point out that Europeans just LOVE American "unthinking naïveté".

My arguments are "made up bullshit"? Fuck off. How many wars have Western Europe and/or Japan been involved in during our post-war presence? How many before? How frequently? How many would've occurred had we not been there? Do you want to remove not only the troops but the listening posts, missile sites, etc.? Believe me that we're not going to be able to have one without the other. It costs a relative pittance to have troops stationed in USAREUR rather than Kansas or New Jersey, but the advantages are huge.

I think that the best thing to have done would have been to build a ginormous base in the middle Iraq. The region is more important than Europe, security wise, and that would be a better location than Germany. The operations dependent on Ramstein could be... moved.

I suppose we'd never have done it anyway because we were trying so hard not to give the impression of occupation, but the thing of that is that we're not *occupying* Germany or Japan or England or (before it got covered in a couple feet of ash) the Philippines. A bit of cultural imperialism, perhaps, but that goes both ways. American families that grow up overseas have a unique understanding that cultural tourists, no matter how smug, do not.

The notion of Iraq being an *accompanied* tour would be a fine measurement for success in the middle east.

Well many libertarians and liberals would point out that the US does have an alternative:

Get out of Europe and the role of World Police

You've assumed I agree with that stance. My point was that some on the right do want to abandon many if not all foreign bases. Not a position I take but I can understand their viewpoint. Too many Americans want America to be "exceptional", "powerful" and "well liked". Probably not going to happen.

Synova wrote, "I think that the best thing to have done would have been to build a ginormous base in the middle Iraq. The region is more important than Europe, security wise, and that would be a better location than Germany. The operations dependent on Ramstein could be... moved."

Exactly right. Poland, the nations comprising the Commonwealth of Independent States (Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc.) and other former Soviet Bloc states have expressed interest in getting us to support them against their former oppressors.

My impression is that they do not trust us to stand by them yet and fear a back lash from Russia if they align more with us.

Synova, the abandonment of plans for missile bases in Poland (and Czech Rep., to a lesser extent) was the epitome of abandoning a long sought strategic advantage for transient reasons. Not to mention the blow to freedom loving Eastern Europeans who saw 60 years of yearning and waiting rendered moot with a pen stroke. That's when I knew for sure that this Adminstration was dangerously incompetent.