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Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Actually, it was Russia. For several hundred years Kiev was central to Russian culture until the Mongol invasions, when the torch was passed to Novgorod.

Properly, under the Kingdom of Lithuania by conquest, held in that manner for nearly 200 years under the personal rule of the King of Poland and Lithuania, which would finally become the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

All of which means nothing. The Ukraine, like all the Russias, is European.

independent, under Russian control by force, briefly independent, and may come under control of Russia again by force. It's no traditional European country.

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Again! It's no traditional European country. Putin will have this problem solved swiftly, with far less loss of life then if the US intervenes.

Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Having the Ukraine is the difference between Russia being a top world power or not. It is that vital to Russia's overall unique power.

Likely Putin would be happy with "just" it, which a bit like saying Germany would be happy with "just" France. The Ukraine is massive and with a huge population.

No, I do not anticipate WW3 out of this because I do not expect the USA to do anything about it but bitch. What I anticipate happening is worldwide nuclear proliferation as counties are left with no other real choice for national self defense.

They made a terrible mistake giving up their nuclear weapons trusting the USA and Britain. They will effectively lose the most lucrative regions of their country as a result of such foolishness.

Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

I would prefer that we STOP making such assurances and that all countries have nukes, or no countries have them and would prefer that no country have them.

Preferences don't rewrite history. We DID make those assurances.

I don't approve of US hegemony, and disagree with you that the US hasn't been involved in wars of conquest, right up to the present.

In which case you should look up the word "conquest".

No, I don't think Putin has designs on Europe, and he's not in the Ukraine because he does.

Putin is in the process of conquering parts of the Ukraine. He certainly has designs on Europe, and he's acting on those designs right this second.

He's in the Ukraine because their was civil unrest, a toppling of the Ukrainian government and Russian ports and other assets are at risk, the country borders Russia and nobody likes an unstable country on their border, he's doing nothing that the US hasn't/wouldn't do and we should mind our own business! But I know you boys don't like being told that.

These are fantastic pretexts, except this isn't all they're using. Russian nationalism is the predominant pretext. These territories are largely Russian speaking, and thus should be under Russian control, by their thinking.

You'll recognize this pretext if you study 19th and 20th century European history.

Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Originally Posted by joko104

Historically Ukrainians liked killing Russians more than anyone else.

Sure, and I won't deny the political importance of the distinction between the Ukrainians and Russians, but it's worth noting that this is very akin to the distinction between Austrians and Germans. Political, not cultural.

Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Originally Posted by Man of Context

Why exactly would Russia declare it independent? Remember that the whole pretext here is that old European notion that people of a certain nationality should share a single government, that same pretext which lead to a century of bloody European warfare.

Ukraine is culturally Russian. Whether or not this ought to put them under the control of Moscow is the real question.

I never said Russia would declare it independent, but Crimea itself will. Using the coup in Ukraine as a pretext, along with a regional vote. Which Russia will recognize, and then support.

Western Ukraine is lost to Russia, parts of Eastern Ukraine could stay within the Russian sphere of influence (ie the Russian speaking parts) and Putin I expect knows this and is trying to salvage something from Ukraine rather then face a total loss

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Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Originally Posted by Montecresto

I'm not excusing force ever even though you argue it's the world we live in and necessary. It's not an excuse as much as an acknowledgement that powerful nations do what think is in their own best interests with no regard to individual liberty. But my main point was that neither Russia nor the Ukraine is a threat to the US and I don't want our blood and treasure spent defending it. ESPECIALLY if it meant engaging Russia, for a group of Ukrainian protesters. I'm glad that a majority of Americans no longer feel the need for the US to intervene every time there's a protest aimed at toppling a government. And it's not an absence of sympathy towards the human desire for liberty, no more than Americans lacked sympathy for those hitler was attacking in the late 30's early 40's. it's just that not all Americans want the US to jump in the middle of every dispute around the world.

I don't think that under the current leadership of this country (or lack of) will bring any response that would significantly alter Russia's path in the Ukraine. And I agree that I don't want US troops used in that region. However, we can see that as the US weakens our stance on the world stage, more nefarious players like Russia are emboldened. Note; Russian war ship docked in Cuba, and Iran's naval force (such that it is) steaming a destroyer toward US waters. In times past there would have been serious thought as to provoking us like that. Now, not so much....And I don't agree that this is a good thing.

Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville