That is the issue, we are taught with the phrases God is all powerful, God is limitless, all things are possible, so why then being created by a God under those terms is that required? No limits would imply that it is not required.

OK you guys are going beyond me here... but I will try to explain it a bit further

You seem to be suggesting God could have done it any way, just made us all righteous in an instant or whatever, so why did He do it the way He did? Why bother making us live for 70 or X number of years, when He could have just zapped us into "righteousness" instead?

And my point is, maybe He is just "zapping us into righteousness", but from our perspective, it seems to take 70 or X number of years (a lifetime).

Could God have done it another way? Probably, but apparent this was the best way. That is the limiting factor.

Do it the best way or some other way. So I suppose God is "limited" in that sense because He chose to do it the best way.

Paul Hazelwood

So I suppose God is "limited" in that sense because He chose to do it the best way.

And thats where I believe the key is to seeing Gods righteousness. It is seeing the reason God bears our pain with us. It is his knowledge of the only way it can be will be understood, realizing the path to glory was indeed a gift after all.

Zeek

This may be too off topic, but I see some relevance; in the whole scheme of does God create and send people to hell.

The idea of "God" out there, taking/sending me a human through "fire" is one interpretation.

But what about an inward approach? What if the scripture is a symbol of the process of "consciousness evolution", occuring within.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Who is this "I" that creates these things/experiences in "us"? And who is the receiver of these experiences. Who is the "subject" and who is the "object"

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Who is Adam, in us? Who is Eve? Who is the serpent??

Are we Holograph's of God??

why wasnt' Adam deceived??

A friend of mine wrote this on another forum, and I want to share. The idea, is that we are "co-creators" with God.

"I will venture to say then, that on a parabolic level I see Eve as that part of our mind which contains the womb or birthing place of thought....an idea that begins to conceptualized...this takes place in the conscious mind (as I understand it scientifically)

I see Adam as that deeper part of our mind, the subconscious which is "the knowing"....

Now from what I understand, the subconscious does not rationalize...it takes what is given to it after it has been filtered through the conscious mind....it doesn't question what it is given...

".... she (the conscious mind) took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband (the subconscious mind) who was with her, and he ate. Gen 3:6

he doesn't question, Adam just takes what Eve gives her and eats...

Now, if then in a symbolic way we can see Eve as the conscious mind we can begin to see why it is that she was deceived, yet Adam was not...

the conscious mind takes in information according to the senses (serpent)...it then formulates beliefs, ideas, thoughts according to those senses....the conscious mind is prone to allowing the physical world determine what is truth...

the subconscious mind, I believe, has a sense of being and knowing that is deeply connected to spirit...it (adam) is the witness to the conscious mind (eve)...it (adam) doesn't judge one way or the other, but experiences and co-operates along with the conscious mind (eve) according to what the conscious mind believes....

this is why I see that the serpent spoke specifically with Eve...she is the only one who is able to take in information according to the senses...she is the "filter" so to speak...

the serpent is said to be "subtle"....meaning shrewd, sensible, prudent

this all has to do with the senses....by which we experience the outside world...

and isn't it the senses which beguile us?? isn't it the senses which tempt us? which trigger the lusts within our own flesh...

eg...you're on a diet but you smell that yummy pizza which tastes so good but which you don't need for nutrition because you just ate a healthy salad...your senses trick you into eating it...

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14

what I am saying here is that the subconscious cannot be tempted or deceived because it simply takes in that which it is given...

there are many who believe that the subconscious has the faith of a child...it goes along with whatever you tell it....and therein lies the rub...tell it lies, it goes along with the lies and so man, who houses both the conscious and subconscious, experiences the consequences of whatever his conscious mind feeds to his subconscious....

I (the subconcious mind) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

(oh boy, if we could only get our conscious minds to shut up... )

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

(if we would stop allowing the physical sensual world to teach the conscious mind of truth we would not be feeding the subconscious mind with the forbidden fruit of duality....to be still and know that I God...to stop being a slave to our thoughts which have previously taken authority over us, we in Christ are to take authority over our thoughts...)

For Adam (the subconscious where the essence of being resides) was formed first,

then Eve (the conscious mind where thoughts are formed and through which ideas spring forth into the physical world);

and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. 1 Timothy 2:11-15

this childbearing I believe to be the birth of thought in the womb of the conscious mind which manifests into expression...this is where we are to be "self-controlled" and thinking thoughts of faith, love and holiness...

the subconscious and conscious cannot be separated and one depends on the other just as in a true marraige...

so as any true husband should, adam (the subconscious) supports his wife (the conscious) in whatever she believes, and in fact does everything he can to fulfill her desires...whether they be productive or non-productive

so what I see is that, when the conscious mind begins to perceive the illusionary element to the physical world, and that what is going on in our minds is being projected outwards, we begin to take care of what we are birthing/thinking....if we can be saved through childbearing...we can be saved through changing our minds, (repenting) and through birthing Christed thoughts into the world rather than the thoughts seeded by the serpent (thoughts seeded by the sensual temptations of the physical world)....

interestingly "cherub" means imaginary thing and in fact there is some indication in the Hebrew traditions that it is connected to the serpent....could this then be connected to "vain imaginations"....if the cherubs are guarding eden, we could say our vain imaginations are guarding us from achieving that higher state of consciousness which is eden....

in my study of "image and likeness of God" months ago I saw that in one sense what we see when we look at ourselves is imaginary...a phantam, an illusion....only an "image" of Elohim...the essense of who we are lies not in what we can perceive with the senses, but is deeper....the essence of who we are lies in the subconscious...the witness, the knowing....and this cannot be deceived...it has known throughout the ages the truth, though hidden...and the experience of the conscious mind serves to lead man back to this deeper knowing that Laren pointed out...

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God (the subconscious part of our minds), they (the conscious part of our minds) glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

so as Laren showed the "knowing God" comes first...that's Adam, the subconscious....then the conscious mind is deceived by the senses, turns the truth of God into a lie...takes God who is within and perceives Him as without....and the subconscious supports this belief to the extent that man ACTS out in this way....

what if the conscious mind is personified as the "Lord"...and what if in conjunction to that, the subconscious contains the I AM essence...then wouldn't so many verses make more sense with regards to the Lord commanding deaths of woman and children, sending evil spirits, creating calamity....isn't it man, deceived of our essence, creating the chaos in the world through the thoughts we birth in our conscious mind???

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (in the conscious mind) do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

but in the subconscious, there is no duality, no turning of shadow, no deception....everything is what it is....everything is witnessed and experienced...and somewhere along the way the woman (the conscious mind) gets tired of playing the harlot with the world, turns within to see her true husband who has been there all along unperceived by the veil between the subconscious and the conscious in the marriage chamber (man's head), merges and mates with him and begins to birth that which will save her....thoughts that have been taken captive to Christ...."

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Our subconcious mind, the "earth without form", void, that creatively brings forth good/evil; based on what we believe.

Be transformed by renewing of mind. Taking every thot captive, and cassting down imaginations.

That was great Zeek I gotcha I also see that as God making Himself TRUE and every man a liar his curse was on the ground in adam and in adam/man/flesh all die eve/ being decieved the inward part of adam saved in child bearing and the cursed serpent to eat that dust/flesh /death something that is cursed is despised and unfruitful though it attempts to be fruitful and fails over and over again [vanity] rose

Paul Hazelwood

Zeek, religious people really critisized the song that had the words "what if God was one of us" and to be honest, I never paid a whole lot of attention to the songs popularity or all the the lyrics.

But that phrase struck a cord in me as I was working through all the religious persuasions that people try to adhere to and some I practiced but did not really believe in my heart.

Of course I have no idea of the intent of the song writer or anything like that, but there is a lot in scripture that echos that.

We are on this Journey with God, he created us in his image, because thats what creation does, he greives along with us as he would the butterfly knowing the beauty that is to come, that could happen no other way.

Thats the beauty of God and spirituality and love, the unity of it all.

Zeek

I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God (I AM) who causes the growth. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7

So who is the "I" (paul), Appolos, and God?

more from my friend on the other forum:

"Now here's what's interesting...the I here is Paul, and the name Paul means "little" and the name Apollos means "destroyer"...

isn't it interesting that the "destroyer" should be doing the watering??...it only serves to show further that what we have thought of as "evil and bad" actually serves an important function in humanity psychologically evolving to a higher dimension of thinking and creating....all of the beliefs and facts that thus far we have surmised from the outer world and have used to define ourselves are also the very things that eventually "destroy" our old self concept...that old self concept becomes then the "manure" for the growth of the new self concept which I believe is a conscious awareness of the true self: the I AM

Paul represents the "little me" which is an illusion or reflection of the imaginary world created by the little me and defined (watered) by the destroyer (super ego)...the bigger me is the I AM...

this is why I have seen the components of the serpent (destroyer) and Eve (little me) as all variations of our psyche...now when we are lost in defining ourselves through little me or the destroyer me we are "yet carnal"...we have not woken up to the fact that these are not who we truly are...we are the I AM....

I like to see it as we play all these various parts and they lead us to the director/author of it all....the I AM within....the parts themselves are just imaginative characters designed to tell a story...but they are not that which created/imagined the story....the characters are "sent" to tell a story, but they are not greater than He who sent them...yet they are one...one within the mind of man...the Father and I are one, yet the Father is greater than me....

so as long as we identify ourselves with the ego or superego we are yet carnal...

For while one says, I am of Paul (I am little me); and another, I am of Apollos (I am the destroyer); are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to each? 1 Corinthians 3:4-5

So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. 1 Corinthians 3:8

the planter, the little me that reasons with the conscious mind according to the senses (the destroyer/deceiver) is rewarded according to the senses....we believe what we see, we see what we believe....

you cannot separate the planter from the waterer...you really cannot separate Eve from the serpent either...

as Amie pointed out "naked" is rooted in the word for "cunning"....when God clothed Adam and Eve with animal parts the true creative power of their "private chambers" was veiled/shrouded....and the creative imaginative world of the human mind became mystified...the mystery hidden through the ages....the deeper bigger me...I AM sleeping/hiding in the skull (Golgotha) of man....man thinks his animal nature is that which sits in the temple claiming to be God....but the sensory/animal nature is not God...it is that which has been sent by God to tell a story...

man imagines (plants and waters) and God (I AM) is causing the growth...as a man thinks, so is he....to the froward He shows Himself to be froward, to the pure He shows Himself to be pure....

but when man thinks that it was the ego/superego that accomplished something he is giving worship to the created, not the Creator (I AM)...

I am seeing man's imagination as that which funnels the creative power...in your audio Amie you said something like: God subjected Adam and Eve to independent thought....

and here's what happened: Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1:21

vain also means "to make empty" and "idolatrous"...when we give power to that which is created we are worshipping idols....whether we perceive something as bad or good, if we do not see that the source of what we see comes from within than we are imagining in vain...imagining in spirit from the source of I AM is creativity at its best...and this source is Love....

I believe there is a strong connection with the sleeping of Adam to the crucifying of Jesus....I am seeing the crucifixion as where Genesis begins...

God dying/sleeping in man (the tomb)....human history is the expression of God awakening and rolling away the stone (ego + superego)...in three days I shall be perfected...for three days in the HEART (mind) of the earth (man)...

I AM is creating a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man...

the resurrected man is God (I AM) in harmony, unveiled and married to the conscious mind which manifests into form...a natural body becomes a spiritual BODY....love swallows up death...."

The power of life and death is in the tongue. Choose this day, life or death. As a man thinketh, so is he. Awake oh sleeper, NOW is the day of salvation.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Zeek, religious people really critisized the song that had the words "what if God was one of us" and to be honest, I never paid a whole lot of attention to the songs popularity or all the the lyrics.

But that phrase struck a cord in me as I was working through all the religious persuasions that people try to adhere to and some I practiced but did not really believe in my heart.

Of course I have no idea of the intent of the song writer or anything like that, but there is a lot in scripture that echos that.

We are on this Journey with God, he created us in his image, because thats what creation does, he greives along with us as he would the butterfly knowing the beauty that is to come, that could happen no other way.

Thats the beauty of God and spirituality and love, the unity of it all.

If God had a nameWhat would it be, and would you call it to his faceIf you were faced with him and all his gloryWhat would you ask if you had just one question?

Yeah, yeah- God is greatYeah, yeah- God is goodYeah, yeah- Yeah (x3)

CHORUSWhat if God was one usJust a slob like one of usJust a stranger on a bus, trying to make his way home..

If God had a faceWhat would it look like and would you want to seeIf seeing meant that you would have to beliveIn things like heaven and in Jesus and the Saints, and all the Prophets and..

Yeah, yeah- God is greatYeah, yeah- God is goodYeah, yeah- Yeah (x3)

CHORUSWhat if God was one of usJust a slob like one of usJust a stranger on a bus, trying to make his way home

Trying to make his way homeBack up to heaven all alone..Nobody callin' on the phone'Cept for the Pope maybe in Rome...

Yeah, yeah- God is greatYeah, yeah- God is goodYeah, yeah- Yeah (x3)

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

--John 18

Hi Zeek, I enjoyed reading what you wrote up, but a word of caution.

First of all, you are using the artificial constructs ('subconscious, conscious, ego, superego').of a drug addicted atheist (Freud) to describe the things of God.

Be careful. Freud reduced man to a material, carnal, and finally sexual being, basically an animal driven by the desires of his body. These movements at the turn of the 20th century were all of one piece---psychiatry, eugenics, evolution, marxism, existentialism, scientism--working together to reduce man to a beast and a slave, and the son of a monkey. These people were funded by those who wish to enslave us and inspired by satan.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I could say "I am" all day long and soldiers would not fall backwards to the ground as they did above when Jesus said, ".egō eimi."

What does the philosopher say? I think therefore I am.

And, that means what? If he wasn't thinking he would not be?

But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all] then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind. (AT VII 25; CSM II 16–17)

--Descartes

He can only be certain, then, of his own existence. This will lead to the solipsism of the existentialists--nothing exists outside of my own mind, nothing exists outside of ME. It's the road to Hell.

I know you are not saying these things--but I am just pointing out where these thoughts come from, and that their origin is not new, and trying to alert you to where they lead.

We must be careful not to fall prey to doctrines of demons or to try to elevate ourselves above God.

It all becomes so tempting.

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.

Logged

God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.

I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.

O k Doc , seems the dead sea is cast in the LOF seems all at once dont it ? can that be ?

this here in Rev 20 is very comparable to Daniels version/vision in Dan 7

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.

I wouldn't have thought that anyone here would think that God sends people to hell. If he does, then we first have to ask, which one? (There are three "hells"; hades, tartarus, Gehenna). I think we need to stop using the confusing language of Christendom and talk about whether God sends people to the LoF, which does apparently happen to at least some, according to Revelation.

O k Doc , seems the dead sea is cast in the LOF seems all at once dont it ? can that be ?

this here in Rev 20 is very comparable to Daniels version/vision in Dan 7

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

seems to me they were already dead to God perhaps ?

I don't know. It could be all at once. It does seem that way from the context and the way it's worded. It would also seem that they were already dead to God in some sense (they were not in the Lamb's book of Life).

My point is, I think we need to be really clear what we're talking about when we say "hell", because it's such an over-used and misused word (and I'm not talking about swearing).

Logged

God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.

First of all, you are using the artificial constructs ('subconscious, conscious, ego, superego').of a drug addicted atheist (Freud) to describe the things of God.

AMEN Molly......God gave me a dream/vision once. I was shown a "book" that represented someone's heart, an unsaved family member. He opened the book and it was like to see both sides at once, starting from the outside pages, in.

Each set of pages had things like; psychology, philosophy, certain religion of hers, ect., it had a lot of pages. When we got to the heart of the book.......it was Satanism, and no she never practiced that literally. I took the hint and burned any leftover books I had in my library from my past, including college textbooks on those.

Not trying to offend ANYONE out there, but if we go on to know the Lord and receive of HIS FULLNESS, there has to be an emptying out to receive the new wine. Blessings....

Logged

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

We must be careful not to fall prey to doctrines of demons or to try to elevate ourselves above God.

It all becomes so tempting.

We have to also be careful of placing God to an imaginary realm where no one can actually see the hope of where we are going.

Ideally, they would see the hope in our witness, because we are walking it out in three dimensions.

Acts 22:15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

I actually agree with that. I have met people that don't just practice what they hope once a week in a building they think they must go to. There are things that are lived out every day as life, not rituals that leave them and their witness empty.

First of all, you are using the artificial constructs ('subconscious, conscious, ego, superego').of a drug addicted atheist (Freud) to describe the things of God.

AMEN Molly......Each set of pages had things like; psychology, philosophy, certain religion of hers, ect., it had a lot of pages. When we got to the heart of the book.......it was Satanism...I took the hint and burned any leftover books I had in my library from my past, including college textbooks on those.

Not trying to offend ANYONE out there, but if we go on to know the Lord and receive of HIS FULLNESS, there has to be an emptying out to receive the new wine. Blessings....

I've tried to be very careful in my life to espouse only counseling theories that I felt lined up with accurate spiritual principles, and to reject those that didn't. I'm sure I've missed it at times. I certainly have been against much of what Freud, Jung, and their ilk taught. However, as with many things, I think we might best be careful to not fall in the ditch in either direction. IMO, many things have an emotional, behavioral, and genetically disordered basis, that we may call "depression, anxiety, psychosis", etc.; and God very well may use a brother or sister that has some expertise or training in that area with which to help individuals suffering from those things. Jesus said the sick need a physician. He does miraculously heal..sometimes the miracle may be leading us to someone that knows how to help. I don't know why He does either at various times, other than it all suits His purpose and brings Him glory.

I know someone that takes insulin and heart medication, but won't take an antidepressant or antipsychotic medication. They see one more so as "medical" (even if brought on by life trauma/trauma to the body), but call the other [strictly] spiritual. Much of it may be, but IMO, there can be genetic/hereditary factors involved as well. They have been saved many years. They study scripture, pray for hours, cry, weep...and beg day after day for God to take their life because they are so miserable...depressed, and possibly with some psychotic symptoms. They entertain suicide day after day, but so far, haven't pulled the trigger.

If someone's mentally retarded, we are willing to admit they have something physically wrong with their brain. But if they're mentally ill, often caused by brain dysfunction, we claim it all as spiritual. I do have an understanding of that, because even as a mental health professional [or perhaps especially as] I have often struggled with "how much of this stuff is OK with God, how much lines up OK with His Word, etc.". It's not been easy. So it may be even more difficult for someone not knee-deep in the field to sort through it, I don't know. I only have my perspective.

Throughout 25 years of practice, I've often found it difficult to maintain a proper balance; at times, wanting to throw it all out; at other times, believing I understood there is a place and time for some theories and techniques that weren't too "out there".

I think it's hard to know sometimes. Yes, I need to empty myself out and totally seek and trust the Lord. However, He doesn't always necessarily appear in person to hand me everything I need. Sometimes He sends someone along with a glass of water.

I see either, as Him showing up...always just in time, with exactly what I need. Praise be to God.

Lastly, does God send people to Hell? I think I make much of my own "hell".