The poles, with adjoining wires, will connect existing local features such as fences or walls alongside roads or terraced buildings.

An eruv was built in neighbouring Borehamwood in 2010.

Mr Clappison, who serves as vice chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel group, said the Borehamwood eruv seems to have made no impact on people at all.

He said: "In Borehamwood it is something which is largely forgotten. It’s not an issue at all in any shape or form."

He added: "It’s a non issue that will be forgotten over time."

Yet the recent planning application to erect an eruv in Bushey has received criticism from some residents, who feel it might make the area less multicultural and stymie diversity.

The application was submitted by United Synagogue, of Ballards Lane, London, on behalf of Bushey United Synagogue.

The Sparrows Herne synagogue currently has a membership of more than 3,000 people - approximately 12.5 per cent of the total population of Bushey.

Spokesmen from the Bushey United Synagogue say installing an eruv is important for the future of their community, as it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population, rather than increase numbers.

Supporters of the application also say that they do not believe this will have an adverse impact on those of other religions, as they will probably not even notice that it is there.

The Hertsmere representative said he is not aware of any controversial or adverse impact the eruv has had in Borehamwood.

As well as Borehamwood, eruvs have been erected in neighbouring Edgware and Stanmore.

Mr Clappison said he believes this is a planning issue and that if people are concerned, they should express their views to Hertsmere Borough Council.

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Comments (46)

Hertsmere MP James Clappison backs Jewish eruv bid across Bushey

6:48pm Fri 19 Jul 13Popeonarope says...

Should have known a backbone would have been required to say no. Not to mention that Mr Clappison has a bias to this. I forget the rule that "No one is allowed to upset the religious obsessives". Does anyone know if this has affected the areas that have these 'Cop Out Fences' already? The whole situation is a mad as a bag of frogs; religious people are even madder it seems.

Should have known a backbone would have been required to say no. Not to mention that Mr Clappison has a bias to this.
I forget the rule that "No one is allowed to upset the religious obsessives".
Does anyone know if this has affected the areas that have these 'Cop Out Fences' already?
The whole situation is a mad as a bag of frogs; religious people are even madder it seems.Should have known a backbone would have been required to say no. Not to mention that Mr Clappison has a bias to this.
I forget the rule that "No one is allowed to upset the religious obsessives".

Does anyone know if this has affected the areas that have these 'Cop Out Fences' already?

The whole situation is a mad as a bag of frogs; religious people are even madder it seems.Popeonarope

Score: 2

7:13pm Fri 19 Jul 13JonBoy says...

As a friend of Israel he's not going to oppose this is he? I think it's time to form an opposition group don't you? Can't do nativity at Christmas, mustn't drink water in class during Ramadan. Must erect 15ft masts around Bushey for our friends of Israel. Oh mustn't celebrate St George's day either. What does it mean to be English? Our children's legacy is being eroded.

As a friend of Israel he's not going to oppose this is he? I think it's time to form an opposition group don't you?
Can't do nativity at Christmas, mustn't drink water in class during Ramadan. Must erect 15ft masts around Bushey for our friends of Israel. Oh mustn't celebrate St George's day either. What does it mean to be English? Our children's legacy is being eroded.As a friend of Israel he's not going to oppose this is he? I think it's time to form an opposition group don't you?

Can't do nativity at Christmas, mustn't drink water in class during Ramadan. Must erect 15ft masts around Bushey for our friends of Israel. Oh mustn't celebrate St George's day either. What does it mean to be English? Our children's legacy is being eroded.JonBoy

Score: 0

7:22pm Fri 19 Jul 13JonBoy says...

If you object to this application go to http://www2.hertsmer e.gov.uk/ACOLNET/DCO nline/acolnetcgi.gov ?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNA ME=Root.PgeResultDet ail&TheSystemkey=830 06 and click on the link at the bottom of the page. Alternatively email planning@hertsmere.g ov.uk quoting TP/13/1281 ,your name, address, comment and reason for interest.

If you object to this application go to
http://www2.hertsmer
e.gov.uk/ACOLNET/DCO
nline/acolnetcgi.gov
?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNA
ME=Root.PgeResultDet
ail&TheSystemkey=830
06
and click on the link at the bottom of the page. Alternatively email planning@hertsmere.g
ov.uk quoting TP/13/1281 ,your name, address, comment and reason for interest.If you object to this application go to

and click on the link at the bottom of the page. Alternatively email planning@hertsmere.g
ov.uk quoting TP/13/1281 ,your name, address, comment and reason for interest.JonBoy

Score: 0

8:41pm Fri 19 Jul 13Nascot says...

Mr Clappison, who serves as vice chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel group. Say no more. ..! Just thought, why not 'decorate' the wires with trainers held together by their laces

Mr Clappison, who serves as vice chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel group. Say no more. ..!
Just thought, why not 'decorate' the wires with trainers held together by their lacesMr Clappison, who serves as vice chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel group. Say no more. ..!

Just thought, why not 'decorate' the wires with trainers held together by their lacesNascot

Score: 0

10:26pm Fri 19 Jul 13Cuetip says...

Imagine a world where there are literally no signs and the sat navs / smart phones are personalised to create signs to cater for different groups / functions as planes seem to manage. We all seem happy to move beyond the bow and arrow with using sophisticated weapons.

Imagine a world where there are literally no signs and the sat navs / smart phones are personalised to create signs to cater for different groups / functions as planes seem to manage.
We all seem happy to move beyond the bow and arrow with using sophisticated weapons.Imagine a world where there are literally no signs and the sat navs / smart phones are personalised to create signs to cater for different groups / functions as planes seem to manage.

We all seem happy to move beyond the bow and arrow with using sophisticated weapons.Cuetip

Score: 0

11:43pm Fri 19 Jul 13Andrew1963 says...

As the MP says it will quickly be forgotten that it is there. so why not designate the whole of Great Britain as an Eruv. That way no one will have to check every Friday that the poles and wire are in place before letting mothers carry their children on the sabbath. We will rely on the sea as a percent boundary

As the MP says it will quickly be forgotten that it is there. so why not designate the whole of Great Britain as an Eruv. That way no one will have to check every Friday that the poles and wire are in place before letting mothers carry their children on the sabbath. We will rely on the sea as a percent boundaryAs the MP says it will quickly be forgotten that it is there. so why not designate the whole of Great Britain as an Eruv. That way no one will have to check every Friday that the poles and wire are in place before letting mothers carry their children on the sabbath. We will rely on the sea as a percent boundaryAndrew1963

Score: 0

12:06am Sat 20 Jul 13LSC says...

He keeps saying it won't be noticed, it will soon be forgotten. If that is the case, what is the point of it? It is a BOUNDARY. The entire purpose of one is that you have moved from one place to another. And the only reason to know that is if things are done differently or an area has a different owner.... Like garden fences or different Councils. Hertsmere and Watford have boundaries. Am I allowed to ignore that and just pay the one who offers the lowest Council Tax? Those boundaries are just lines on a map, after all. Geographically there is little difference. I'll tell you who know WILL notice, and NEVER forget, the new proposed boundary. Estate Agents and Property Developers. But there is a darker paragraph in that report. Very dark indeed. "it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population" Designed? DESIGNED? So it is a co-ordinated plan then? To favour one group over another in one geographical area; does this 'Grand Plan' worry about our Muslim population at all? It doesn't seem to mention it. Why would anyone want to 'prevent the decline' of any particular group unless it is for self interest? They can live where they want. If, for whatever bizarre reason they NEED an eruv to exist (though they have managed for about 10,000 years so far) as the article states there are plenty about. Go move there. This sort of thing was tried in Sarajevo, Berlin, Moscow, Hanoi over the years...I could name many more, It is called Ethnic Cleansing and it never ended well, for anybody.

He keeps saying it won't be noticed, it will soon be forgotten.
If that is the case, what is the point of it?
It is a BOUNDARY. The entire purpose of one is that you have moved from one place to another. And the only reason to know that is if things are done differently or an area has a different owner.... Like garden fences or different Councils.
Hertsmere and Watford have boundaries. Am I allowed to ignore that and just pay the one who offers the lowest Council Tax? Those boundaries are just lines on a map, after all.
Geographically there is little difference.
I'll tell you who know WILL notice, and NEVER forget, the new proposed boundary.
Estate Agents and Property Developers.
But there is a darker paragraph in that report. Very dark indeed.
"it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population"
Designed? DESIGNED? So it is a co-ordinated plan then? To favour one group over another in one geographical area; does this 'Grand Plan' worry about our Muslim population at all? It doesn't seem to mention it.
Why would anyone want to 'prevent the decline' of any particular group unless it is for self interest? They can live where they want.
If, for whatever bizarre reason they NEED an eruv to exist (though they have managed for about 10,000 years so far) as the article states there are plenty about. Go move there.
This sort of thing was tried in Sarajevo, Berlin, Moscow, Hanoi over the years...I could name many more, It is called Ethnic Cleansing and it never ended well, for anybody.He keeps saying it won't be noticed, it will soon be forgotten.
If that is the case, what is the point of it?

It is a BOUNDARY. The entire purpose of one is that you have moved from one place to another. And the only reason to know that is if things are done differently or an area has a different owner.... Like garden fences or different Councils.

Hertsmere and Watford have boundaries. Am I allowed to ignore that and just pay the one who offers the lowest Council Tax? Those boundaries are just lines on a map, after all.
Geographically there is little difference.

I'll tell you who know WILL notice, and NEVER forget, the new proposed boundary.

Estate Agents and Property Developers.

But there is a darker paragraph in that report. Very dark indeed.

"it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population"

Designed? DESIGNED? So it is a co-ordinated plan then? To favour one group over another in one geographical area; does this 'Grand Plan' worry about our Muslim population at all? It doesn't seem to mention it.

Why would anyone want to 'prevent the decline' of any particular group unless it is for self interest? They can live where they want.
If, for whatever bizarre reason they NEED an eruv to exist (though they have managed for about 10,000 years so far) as the article states there are plenty about. Go move there.

This sort of thing was tried in Sarajevo, Berlin, Moscow, Hanoi over the years...I could name many more, It is called Ethnic Cleansing and it never ended well, for anybody.LSC

Score: 1

12:12am Sat 20 Jul 13LSC says...

@Andrew1963 I asked this and was informed although god doesn't like hankys, keys or wheelchairs (none of which were around when it was all written down), he is apparently fond of the metric system and all eruvs must have barriers one metre high. The stupidity of that one sentence makes me wonder about the future of the Human Race all round.

@Andrew1963
I asked this and was informed although god doesn't like hankys, keys or wheelchairs (none of which were around when it was all written down), he is apparently fond of the metric system and all eruvs must have barriers one metre high.
The stupidity of that one sentence makes me wonder about the future of the Human Race all round.@Andrew1963
I asked this and was informed although god doesn't like hankys, keys or wheelchairs (none of which were around when it was all written down), he is apparently fond of the metric system and all eruvs must have barriers one metre high.

The stupidity of that one sentence makes me wonder about the future of the Human Race all round.LSC

Score: 0

12:30am Sat 20 Jul 13MarsLander says...

As a friend of Israel, should he even comment when he is expected to represent the interests of ALL his constituents? Surely he is biased and therefore compromised and unable to take a balanced view?

As a friend of Israel, should he even comment when he is expected to represent the interests of ALL his constituents?
Surely he is biased and therefore compromised and unable to take a balanced view?As a friend of Israel, should he even comment when he is expected to represent the interests of ALL his constituents?

Surely he is biased and therefore compromised and unable to take a balanced view?MarsLander

Score: 0

12:50am Sat 20 Jul 13LSC says...

I have met James many times on a social level and he always seems a nice bloke. But this whole saga seems to involve a LOT of Councillors and property developers who happen to belong to the same club. And I will repeat it again, because words cannot describe how repellant I find this sentence: "it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population" Nobody 'designs' my town, or my country, on ethnic or religious grounds. That is EVERYTHING I am against. Get stuffed.

I have met James many times on a social level and he always seems a nice bloke.
But this whole saga seems to involve a LOT of Councillors and property developers who happen to belong to the same club.
And I will repeat it again, because words cannot describe how repellant I find this sentence:
"it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population"
Nobody 'designs' my town, or my country, on ethnic or religious grounds. That is EVERYTHING I am against.
Get stuffed.I have met James many times on a social level and he always seems a nice bloke.

But this whole saga seems to involve a LOT of Councillors and property developers who happen to belong to the same club.

And I will repeat it again, because words cannot describe how repellant I find this sentence:

"it is designed to prevent the decline in the Jewish population"

Nobody 'designs' my town, or my country, on ethnic or religious grounds. That is EVERYTHING I am against.
Get stuffed.LSC

Score: 0

2:30am Sat 20 Jul 13John Dowdle says...

If, as Clappison claims, this is a non-issue, why is it even being applied for? If it is of no consequence, then why don't local people simply ignore these outdated rules and lead normal lives? If nothing else, the whole process smacks of utter hypocrisy, as it is apparently designed to get round their own rules in an effort to prevent the decline in the Jewish population. And they think making an area a new form of ghetto will help that design? What about Jewish people who are truly religious? Does this mean they will be forced to move elsewhere? For secular Jews who want no truck with this kind of religious nonsense, does this mean they will end up being forced out of the area in order not to be labelled as living in a Jewish ghetto? Bizarrely, this very attempt to prevent a decline in the local Jewish population could well end up forcing Jewish people out of the area and the area going into general overall decline anyway. I hope the Bushey councillors see though this ridiculous idea for the nonsense it clearly is. Clappison, on the other hand, is only trying to gain political capital from the local big wigs as he is probably feeling the hot breath of UKIP on his neck.

If, as Clappison claims, this is a non-issue, why is it even being applied for?
If it is of no consequence, then why don't local people simply ignore these outdated rules and lead normal lives?
If nothing else, the whole process smacks of utter hypocrisy, as it is apparently designed to get round their own rules in an effort to prevent the decline in the Jewish population.
And they think making an area a new form of ghetto will help that design?
What about Jewish people who are truly religious? Does this mean they will be forced to move elsewhere?
For secular Jews who want no truck with this kind of religious nonsense, does this mean they will end up being forced out of the area in order not to be labelled as living in a Jewish ghetto?
Bizarrely, this very attempt to prevent a decline in the local Jewish population could well end up forcing Jewish people out of the area and the area going into general overall decline anyway.
I hope the Bushey councillors see though this ridiculous idea for the nonsense it clearly is.
Clappison, on the other hand, is only trying to gain political capital from the local big wigs as he is probably feeling the hot breath of UKIP on his neck.If, as Clappison claims, this is a non-issue, why is it even being applied for?
If it is of no consequence, then why don't local people simply ignore these outdated rules and lead normal lives?
If nothing else, the whole process smacks of utter hypocrisy, as it is apparently designed to get round their own rules in an effort to prevent the decline in the Jewish population.
And they think making an area a new form of ghetto will help that design?
What about Jewish people who are truly religious? Does this mean they will be forced to move elsewhere?
For secular Jews who want no truck with this kind of religious nonsense, does this mean they will end up being forced out of the area in order not to be labelled as living in a Jewish ghetto?
Bizarrely, this very attempt to prevent a decline in the local Jewish population could well end up forcing Jewish people out of the area and the area going into general overall decline anyway.
I hope the Bushey councillors see though this ridiculous idea for the nonsense it clearly is.
Clappison, on the other hand, is only trying to gain political capital from the local big wigs as he is probably feeling the hot breath of UKIP on his neck.John Dowdle

Score: 0

2:50am Sat 20 Jul 13Popeonarope says...

Judaism is the same as most religions in that it has a selection of variations or flavours in its belief system. Orthodox Judaism believes that both the written and oral torah are of divine origin, containing the exact words of god without any human influence including directly the commandments given to Moses on Mount Sinai from where the Pentateuch or the Five Books of Moses is derived. (The torah are the first five books of the twenty four that make up the Tanakh or jewish bible). The books are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, book of Numbers and Deuteronomy which should be familiar to all who know the christian bible. As the old testament is the foundation for this belief system it is obviously a tad out of touch with modern life. I can see saturdays being a pain to endure for the faithful hence the requirement for the eruv. I personally dont have a problem with the idea of the eruv within areas that already have a majority of jewish populations but with the consequences of having one put up in my home area does make me feel that this needs to be a carefully considered issue. Many other eruvs seem to have passed under the radar or have been pushed through without consultation which as it is denoting a public location for religious purposes needs to be considered carefully. My personal views on religion as a whole is that of a atheist so my objection would be that the eruv is a religious containment that may effect my neighborhood. To flippantly say it wont affect me is moot as this in an unknown factor. If someone can present me with facts and figures of areas with eruvs before and after on such logistics as population movement, economics, schooling and building works etc than i may be persuaded but until then I must object. Evolution is a natural change to suite your environment, this is a change in environment to suite your inflexible, archaic, immoral and nasty rule-books. If you choose to follow the absolute and inflexible rules of Yahweh then do so. Why try and invent a get out clause? Barking mad...

Judaism is the same as most religions in that it has a selection of variations or flavours in its belief system.
Orthodox Judaism believes that both the written and oral torah are of divine origin, containing the exact words of god without any human influence including directly the commandments given to Moses on Mount Sinai from where the Pentateuch or the Five Books of Moses is derived. (The torah are the first five books of the twenty four that make up the Tanakh or jewish bible). The books are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, book of Numbers and Deuteronomy which should be familiar to all who know the christian bible.
As the old testament is the foundation for this belief system it is obviously a tad out of touch with modern life. I can see saturdays being a pain to endure for the faithful hence the requirement for the eruv.
I personally dont have a problem with the idea of the eruv within areas that already have a majority of jewish populations but with the consequences of having one put up in my home area does make me feel that this needs to be a carefully considered issue. Many other eruvs seem to have passed under the radar or have been pushed through without consultation which as it is denoting a public location for religious purposes needs to be considered carefully.
My personal views on religion as a whole is that of a atheist so my objection would be that the eruv is a religious containment that may effect my neighborhood. To flippantly say it wont affect me is moot as this in an unknown factor. If someone can present me with facts and figures of areas with eruvs before and after on such logistics as population movement, economics, schooling and building works etc than i may be persuaded but until then I must object.
Evolution is a natural change to suite your environment, this is a change in environment to suite your inflexible, archaic, immoral and nasty rule-books. If you choose to follow the absolute and inflexible rules of Yahweh then do so. Why try and invent a get out clause? Barking mad...Judaism is the same as most religions in that it has a selection of variations or flavours in its belief system.
Orthodox Judaism believes that both the written and oral torah are of divine origin, containing the exact words of god without any human influence including directly the commandments given to Moses on Mount Sinai from where the Pentateuch or the Five Books of Moses is derived. (The torah are the first five books of the twenty four that make up the Tanakh or jewish bible). The books are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, book of Numbers and Deuteronomy which should be familiar to all who know the christian bible.
As the old testament is the foundation for this belief system it is obviously a tad out of touch with modern life. I can see saturdays being a pain to endure for the faithful hence the requirement for the eruv.
I personally dont have a problem with the idea of the eruv within areas that already have a majority of jewish populations but with the consequences of having one put up in my home area does make me feel that this needs to be a carefully considered issue. Many other eruvs seem to have passed under the radar or have been pushed through without consultation which as it is denoting a public location for religious purposes needs to be considered carefully.
My personal views on religion as a whole is that of a atheist so my objection would be that the eruv is a religious containment that may effect my neighborhood. To flippantly say it wont affect me is moot as this in an unknown factor. If someone can present me with facts and figures of areas with eruvs before and after on such logistics as population movement, economics, schooling and building works etc than i may be persuaded but until then I must object.
Evolution is a natural change to suite your environment, this is a change in environment to suite your inflexible, archaic, immoral and nasty rule-books. If you choose to follow the absolute and inflexible rules of Yahweh then do so. Why try and invent a get out clause? Barking mad...Popeonarope

Score: 3

3:31am Sat 20 Jul 13Honest Rog says...

Religion: The great divider. BTW John, I don't think Mr Clappison's too fussed about 'ickle Nige and his UKRAP inbreds. He's 5% down in the polls!

Religion: The great divider.
BTW John, I don't think Mr Clappison's too fussed about 'ickle Nige and his UKRAP inbreds. He's 5% down in the polls!Religion: The great divider.
BTW John, I don't think Mr Clappison's too fussed about 'ickle Nige and his UKRAP inbreds. He's 5% down in the polls!Honest Rog

Score: 0

9:02am Sat 20 Jul 13GoldenManc says...

This is nothing but a wire traveling over already erected walls and fences - just chill the f**k out.

This is nothing but a wire traveling over already erected walls and fences - just chill the f**k out.This is nothing but a wire traveling over already erected walls and fences - just chill the f**k out.GoldenManc

Score: 0

9:24am Sat 20 Jul 13JonBoy says...

The only way to stop this 'design' is to object

The only way to stop this 'design' is to objectThe only way to stop this 'design' is to objectJonBoy

Score: 0

11:09am Sat 20 Jul 13Taxidermist says...

As a non religious person I can't see what all the fuss is about, it's only a few poles with bit's of wire attached, it's not as if it's a Mobile Phone mast emitting lots of nasty microwave radiation, and the majority of the local population probably wouldn't even notice they were there.

As a non religious person I can't see what all the fuss is about, it's only a few poles with bit's of wire attached, it's not as if it's a Mobile Phone mast emitting lots of nasty microwave radiation, and the majority of the local population probably wouldn't even notice they were there.As a non religious person I can't see what all the fuss is about, it's only a few poles with bit's of wire attached, it's not as if it's a Mobile Phone mast emitting lots of nasty microwave radiation, and the majority of the local population probably wouldn't even notice they were there.Taxidermist

Score: 0

11:45am Sat 20 Jul 13John Dowdle says...

What GoldenManc and Taxidermist fail to grasp is the unwelcome peer pressure this will bring on Jewish people living in the area. They will be unhappy about this development but how can they object without running the risk of being accused of being "self-hating" Jews? They are being forced into an unwelcome ghetto which they did not originally ask to live in, did they? Who are these extremist North London Jews to come along and change the area they have lived in for many years? This form of separation is bad for community cohesion. Historically such self-separation has never served Jewish people at all well. I hope the local Jewish community, councillors and MP will wake up and stop this unwelcome development. Once they find themselves living behind the wire, it will be a matter of time before the extremists start dictating on all aspects of their lives. Before they know where they are, there will be volunteer Iranian-style morality police patrolling the area, enforcing modes of dress and behaviour. Who wants that?

What GoldenManc and Taxidermist fail to grasp is the unwelcome peer pressure this will bring on Jewish people living in the area.
They will be unhappy about this development but how can they object without running the risk of being accused of being "self-hating" Jews?
They are being forced into an unwelcome ghetto which they did not originally ask to live in, did they?
Who are these extremist North London Jews to come along and change the area they have lived in for many years?
This form of separation is bad for community cohesion. Historically such self-separation has never served Jewish people at all well.
I hope the local Jewish community, councillors and MP will wake up and stop this unwelcome development.
Once they find themselves living behind the wire, it will be a matter of time before the extremists start dictating on all aspects of their lives.
Before they know where they are, there will be volunteer Iranian-style morality police patrolling the area, enforcing modes of dress and behaviour. Who wants that?What GoldenManc and Taxidermist fail to grasp is the unwelcome peer pressure this will bring on Jewish people living in the area.
They will be unhappy about this development but how can they object without running the risk of being accused of being "self-hating" Jews?
They are being forced into an unwelcome ghetto which they did not originally ask to live in, did they?
Who are these extremist North London Jews to come along and change the area they have lived in for many years?
This form of separation is bad for community cohesion. Historically such self-separation has never served Jewish people at all well.
I hope the local Jewish community, councillors and MP will wake up and stop this unwelcome development.
Once they find themselves living behind the wire, it will be a matter of time before the extremists start dictating on all aspects of their lives.
Before they know where they are, there will be volunteer Iranian-style morality police patrolling the area, enforcing modes of dress and behaviour. Who wants that?John Dowdle

Score: 0

12:41pm Sat 20 Jul 13Roy Stockdill says...

Unsurprisingly, I totally agree with John Dowdle. Isn't it astonishing what religious groups keep on demanding? "Mad as a bag of frogs" seems like a good description to me. James Clappison, BTW, seems to have a problem with boundaries! He is a Yorkshireman by birth but not one that I would particularly want to claim! In his parliamentary interests he declares rent from homes in Yorkshire and North Humberside. I told him some years ago in an e-mail that the bogus county of Humberside, North or South, was abolished in 1993, being an object of anathema to all decent Yorkshire folks. But he doesn't seem to have taken any notice.

Unsurprisingly, I totally agree with John Dowdle. Isn't it astonishing what religious groups keep on demanding? "Mad as a bag of frogs" seems like a good description to me.
James Clappison, BTW, seems to have a problem with boundaries! He is a Yorkshireman by birth but not one that I would particularly want to claim! In his parliamentary interests he declares rent from homes in Yorkshire and North Humberside. I told him some years ago in an e-mail that the bogus county of Humberside, North or South, was abolished in 1993, being an object of anathema to all decent Yorkshire folks. But he doesn't seem to have taken any notice.Unsurprisingly, I totally agree with John Dowdle. Isn't it astonishing what religious groups keep on demanding? "Mad as a bag of frogs" seems like a good description to me.

James Clappison, BTW, seems to have a problem with boundaries! He is a Yorkshireman by birth but not one that I would particularly want to claim! In his parliamentary interests he declares rent from homes in Yorkshire and North Humberside. I told him some years ago in an e-mail that the bogus county of Humberside, North or South, was abolished in 1993, being an object of anathema to all decent Yorkshire folks. But he doesn't seem to have taken any notice.Roy Stockdill

Score: 0

1:38pm Sat 20 Jul 13LSC says...

Taxidermist wrote…

As a non religious person I can't see what all the fuss is about, it's only a few poles with bit's of wire attached, it's not as if it's a Mobile Phone mast emitting lots of nasty microwave radiation, and the majority of the local population probably wouldn't even notice they were there.

As I said before, certain people WILL notice. Estate Agents and Housing Developers. House and land prices within the boundary will go up, because of the simple law of supply and demand: living even 10 yards OUTSIDE the boundary is no good for an orthadox jew, they have to be IN it. That makes it more attractive to them, and they will pay extra accordingly. Now this might be fine for me if I wanted to sell my house; or my garden for development. But I don't. Many though will take the opportunity, and that will change my town forever, for me and my neighbours. What would you do if you owned a resteraunt in an area that became expensive overnight? Slash your prices or put them up a bit? Therefore if you lived out of town and were on average means and wanted a place to eat, would you go to Bushey and pay more for the same fayre you can get a mile away outside the boundary for less money? That is how ghettos, rich ones and poor ones, begin. Bushey will begin to be populated by, and visited by, only a certain type of people. At the moment we have allsorts, and that is how I like it, thanks.

[quote][p][bold]Taxidermist[/bold] wrote:
As a non religious person I can't see what all the fuss is about, it's only a few poles with bit's of wire attached, it's not as if it's a Mobile Phone mast emitting lots of nasty microwave radiation, and the majority of the local population probably wouldn't even notice they were there.[/p][/quote]As I said before, certain people WILL notice. Estate Agents and Housing Developers.
House and land prices within the boundary will go up, because of the simple law of supply and demand: living even 10 yards OUTSIDE the boundary is no good for an orthadox jew, they have to be IN it. That makes it more attractive to them, and they will pay extra accordingly.
Now this might be fine for me if I wanted to sell my house; or my garden for development. But I don't.
Many though will take the opportunity, and that will change my town forever, for me and my neighbours.
What would you do if you owned a resteraunt in an area that became expensive overnight? Slash your prices or put them up a bit? Therefore if you lived out of town and were on average means and wanted a place to eat, would you go to Bushey and pay more for the same fayre you can get a mile away outside the boundary for less money?
That is how ghettos, rich ones and poor ones, begin.
Bushey will begin to be populated by, and visited by, only a certain type of people. At the moment we have allsorts, and that is how I like it, thanks.

Taxidermist wrote:
As a non religious person I can't see what all the fuss is about, it's only a few poles with bit's of wire attached, it's not as if it's a Mobile Phone mast emitting lots of nasty microwave radiation, and the majority of the local population probably wouldn't even notice they were there.

As I said before, certain people WILL notice. Estate Agents and Housing Developers.
House and land prices within the boundary will go up, because of the simple law of supply and demand: living even 10 yards OUTSIDE the boundary is no good for an orthadox jew, they have to be IN it. That makes it more attractive to them, and they will pay extra accordingly.

Now this might be fine for me if I wanted to sell my house; or my garden for development. But I don't.
Many though will take the opportunity, and that will change my town forever, for me and my neighbours.

What would you do if you owned a resteraunt in an area that became expensive overnight? Slash your prices or put them up a bit? Therefore if you lived out of town and were on average means and wanted a place to eat, would you go to Bushey and pay more for the same fayre you can get a mile away outside the boundary for less money?

That is how ghettos, rich ones and poor ones, begin.
Bushey will begin to be populated by, and visited by, only a certain type of people. At the moment we have allsorts, and that is how I like it, thanks.LSC

Score: 0

10:01pm Sat 20 Jul 13Popeonarope says...

GoldenManc wrote…

This is nothing but a wire traveling over already erected walls and fences - just chill the f**k out.

Fundamentalist religions should be treated carefully. In this case especially so, so the balance of the area is not affected negatively. The fact that it is a religious boundary should mean it is treated with suspicion as it is not "nothing but a wire" to the group that wants it. I've been to Israel / Jerusalem / Gaza and the West bank and seen first hand what the Zionists are capable of. How they think of gentiles and the blatant mind washing is shown in Israeli psychologist George Tamarin experiment in 1966.

[quote][p][bold]GoldenManc[/bold] wrote:
This is nothing but a wire traveling over already erected walls and fences - just chill the f**k out.[/p][/quote]Fundamentalist religions should be treated carefully. In this case especially so, so the balance of the area is not affected negatively.
The fact that it is a religious boundary should mean it is treated with suspicion as it is not "nothing but a wire" to the group that wants it.
I've been to Israel / Jerusalem / Gaza and the West bank and seen first hand what the Zionists are capable of. How they think of gentiles and the blatant mind washing is shown in Israeli psychologist George Tamarin experiment in 1966.

GoldenManc wrote:
This is nothing but a wire traveling over already erected walls and fences - just chill the f**k out.

Fundamentalist religions should be treated carefully. In this case especially so, so the balance of the area is not affected negatively.

The fact that it is a religious boundary should mean it is treated with suspicion as it is not "nothing but a wire" to the group that wants it.

I've been to Israel / Jerusalem / Gaza and the West bank and seen first hand what the Zionists are capable of. How they think of gentiles and the blatant mind washing is shown in Israeli psychologist George Tamarin experiment in 1966.Popeonarope

Score: 2

12:00pm Sun 21 Jul 13mr_jrt says...

The Eruv itself isn't the main issue, as unsightly as it may be. Like many have said - it's just pole and wires, abet the ghetto arguments are a concern. No, the real problem is that they have to annihilate the conservation area protections Bushey enjoys in order to build it - THAT's the problem. There's a reason so many property developers in the little club Mr Clappison belongs to are pushing for this. It's a great excuse to remove the protections as you can argue that anyone opposing it is being racist or whatever. Once those protections are gone though, then get ready for the builders. It's bad enough how many homes already get knocked down and 4 or so built in their place...but this is a process that will accelerate. Get ready - Bushey's going to slowly start looking more and more like Stanmore and Edgware. Just think to yourselves when the last time was that someone described Edgware as 'beautiful'.

The Eruv itself isn't the main issue, as unsightly as it may be. Like many have said - it's just pole and wires, abet the ghetto arguments are a concern.
No, the real problem is that they have to annihilate the conservation area protections Bushey enjoys in order to build it - THAT's the problem.
There's a reason so many property developers in the little club Mr Clappison belongs to are pushing for this. It's a great excuse to remove the protections as you can argue that anyone opposing it is being racist or whatever. Once those protections are gone though, then get ready for the builders.
It's bad enough how many homes already get knocked down and 4 or so built in their place...but this is a process that will accelerate. Get ready - Bushey's going to slowly start looking more and more like Stanmore and Edgware. Just think to yourselves when the last time was that someone described Edgware as 'beautiful'.The Eruv itself isn't the main issue, as unsightly as it may be. Like many have said - it's just pole and wires, abet the ghetto arguments are a concern.

No, the real problem is that they have to annihilate the conservation area protections Bushey enjoys in order to build it - THAT's the problem.

There's a reason so many property developers in the little club Mr Clappison belongs to are pushing for this. It's a great excuse to remove the protections as you can argue that anyone opposing it is being racist or whatever. Once those protections are gone though, then get ready for the builders.

It's bad enough how many homes already get knocked down and 4 or so built in their place...but this is a process that will accelerate. Get ready - Bushey's going to slowly start looking more and more like Stanmore and Edgware. Just think to yourselves when the last time was that someone described Edgware as 'beautiful'.mr_jrt

Score: 0

12:30pm Sun 21 Jul 13Popeonarope says...

Racism has not been, nor is an issue in this matter. The jewish faith like the muslim faith is multiracial. Religion's special status that everyone makes allowances for them and is afraid of upsetting them is a major concern as they already enjoy the protection of the law and funding from governments. They are allowed to teach lies and coerce children into the same malevolent retardation without question and everyone thinks thinks this is okay because they profess to know all the answers to all questions. Seriously, enough is enough.

Racism has not been, nor is an issue in this matter. The jewish faith like the muslim faith is multiracial.
Religion's special status that everyone makes allowances for them and is afraid of upsetting them is a major concern as they already enjoy the protection of the law and funding from governments. They are allowed to teach lies and coerce children into the same malevolent retardation without question and everyone thinks thinks this is okay because they profess to know all the answers to all questions.
Seriously, enough is enough.Racism has not been, nor is an issue in this matter. The jewish faith like the muslim faith is multiracial.
Religion's special status that everyone makes allowances for them and is afraid of upsetting them is a major concern as they already enjoy the protection of the law and funding from governments. They are allowed to teach lies and coerce children into the same malevolent retardation without question and everyone thinks thinks this is okay because they profess to know all the answers to all questions.
Seriously, enough is enough.Popeonarope

Score: 1

2:44pm Sun 21 Jul 13LSC says...

I understand there is to be a public meeting on Tuesday 6th August at Falconer Hall at 7.30 pm. Just for fun, I'd have arranged it for a Saturday, but that is just me being me!

I understand there is to be a public meeting on Tuesday 6th August at Falconer Hall at 7.30 pm.
Just for fun, I'd have arranged it for a Saturday, but that is just me being me!I understand there is to be a public meeting on Tuesday 6th August at Falconer Hall at 7.30 pm.

Just for fun, I'd have arranged it for a Saturday, but that is just me being me!LSC

Score: 1

12:17am Tue 23 Jul 13Cuetip says...

MarsLander wrote…

As a friend of Israel, should he even comment when he is expected to represent the interests of ALL his constituents? Surely he is biased and therefore compromised and unable to take a balanced view?

Surely MarsLander you must be aware that groups / MPs exist to protect their interests. Bias, discrimination and prejudice is endemic in our society and the power groups have become very adept at using the window dressing policies.

[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote:
As a friend of Israel, should he even comment when he is expected to represent the interests of ALL his constituents?
Surely he is biased and therefore compromised and unable to take a balanced view?[/p][/quote]Surely MarsLander you must be aware that groups / MPs exist to protect their interests. Bias, discrimination and prejudice is endemic in our society and the power groups have become very adept at using the window dressing policies.

MarsLander wrote:
As a friend of Israel, should he even comment when he is expected to represent the interests of ALL his constituents?

Surely he is biased and therefore compromised and unable to take a balanced view?

Surely MarsLander you must be aware that groups / MPs exist to protect their interests. Bias, discrimination and prejudice is endemic in our society and the power groups have become very adept at using the window dressing policies.Cuetip

Score: 0

1:22pm Tue 23 Jul 13MarsLander says...

Anything that smacks of taking the electorate for a ride is bad in my book. It looks like Clappison is only spinning one side of it and appearing to take the people for a ride. Wouldn't it be better if he dropped the friends of Israel mantle and became a friend of the people of Bushey? Maybe it's time for a new MP for the good people of Bushey in 2015? One who will concentrate on all his/her constituents without favour to any one interest group. In other words, one who is fair-minded.

Anything that smacks of taking the electorate for a ride is bad in my book.
It looks like Clappison is only spinning one side of it and appearing to take the people for a ride.
Wouldn't it be better if he dropped the friends of Israel mantle and became a friend of the people of Bushey?
Maybe it's time for a new MP for the good people of Bushey in 2015? One who will concentrate on all his/her constituents without favour to any one interest group. In other words, one who is fair-minded.Anything that smacks of taking the electorate for a ride is bad in my book.

It looks like Clappison is only spinning one side of it and appearing to take the people for a ride.

Wouldn't it be better if he dropped the friends of Israel mantle and became a friend of the people of Bushey?

Maybe it's time for a new MP for the good people of Bushey in 2015? One who will concentrate on all his/her constituents without favour to any one interest group. In other words, one who is fair-minded.MarsLander

Score: 0

1:34pm Tue 23 Jul 13Roy Stockdill says...

ALL religious rituals are barmy and a hangover from the days when children had them stuffed down their throats by their elders, whether they wanted them or not. I have never forgotten my dad, who wasn't remotely religious but he had a peculiar rule in our house that my mother and I were not allowed to use scissors on a Sunday. I asked him once to explain and he couldn't but muttered that it was something he had always been told by his mother. It transpired that my grandmother, whom I never knew, was a member of the strict Plymouth Brethren and presumably they associated using scissors with working on a Sunday, which was not permitted by the sect. My mother and I used to laugh about it behind his back.

ALL religious rituals are barmy and a hangover from the days when children had them stuffed down their throats by their elders, whether they wanted them or not.
I have never forgotten my dad, who wasn't remotely religious but he had a peculiar rule in our house that my mother and I were not allowed to use scissors on a Sunday. I asked him once to explain and he couldn't but muttered that it was something he had always been told by his mother. It transpired that my grandmother, whom I never knew, was a member of the strict Plymouth Brethren and presumably they associated using scissors with working on a Sunday, which was not permitted by the sect.
My mother and I used to laugh about it behind his back.ALL religious rituals are barmy and a hangover from the days when children had them stuffed down their throats by their elders, whether they wanted them or not.

I have never forgotten my dad, who wasn't remotely religious but he had a peculiar rule in our house that my mother and I were not allowed to use scissors on a Sunday. I asked him once to explain and he couldn't but muttered that it was something he had always been told by his mother. It transpired that my grandmother, whom I never knew, was a member of the strict Plymouth Brethren and presumably they associated using scissors with working on a Sunday, which was not permitted by the sect.
My mother and I used to laugh about it behind his back.Roy Stockdill

Score: 0

1:36pm Tue 23 Jul 13Roy Stockdill says...

Isn't there something rather bizarre and incongruous about trying to introduce something which permits members of a particular religious sect, in this case Jews, to do something that they wouldn't normally be allowed to do under their religious rules? I call it, quite simply, rank HYPOCRISY.

Isn't there something rather bizarre and incongruous about trying to introduce something which permits members of a particular religious sect, in this case Jews, to do something that they wouldn't normally be allowed to do under their religious rules?
I call it, quite simply, rank HYPOCRISY.Isn't there something rather bizarre and incongruous about trying to introduce something which permits members of a particular religious sect, in this case Jews, to do something that they wouldn't normally be allowed to do under their religious rules?

I call it, quite simply, rank HYPOCRISY.Roy Stockdill

Score: 0

2:26pm Tue 23 Jul 13LSC says...

Yes, it is Roy. The message is clear: You don't have to obey rules that are inconvenient. You find a way around them. I find paying my Council Tax pretty inconvenient, and I know a way to get around that too. I'll go on the dole and you and everyone else can pay it for me. Legal? Totally. Moral? No. But if the message from highly respected religious leaders is that morals don't matter, why should I miss out?

Yes, it is Roy. The message is clear: You don't have to obey rules that are inconvenient. You find a way around them.
I find paying my Council Tax pretty inconvenient, and I know a way to get around that too. I'll go on the dole and you and everyone else can pay it for me.
Legal? Totally. Moral? No. But if the message from highly respected religious leaders is that morals don't matter, why should I miss out?Yes, it is Roy. The message is clear: You don't have to obey rules that are inconvenient. You find a way around them.

I find paying my Council Tax pretty inconvenient, and I know a way to get around that too. I'll go on the dole and you and everyone else can pay it for me.

Legal? Totally. Moral? No. But if the message from highly respected religious leaders is that morals don't matter, why should I miss out?LSC

Score: 0

12:40am Wed 24 Jul 13MarsLander says...

If you don't want to follow the tenets of your religion, then perhaps it is not the right religion for you. Maybe you're just not that religious.

If you don't want to follow the tenets of your religion, then perhaps it is not the right religion for you.
Maybe you're just not that religious.If you don't want to follow the tenets of your religion, then perhaps it is not the right religion for you.

Maybe you're just not that religious.MarsLander

Score: 0

2:26pm Wed 24 Jul 13garston tony says...

I find it interesting that for instance Popeonarope in the very first post is up in arms over an eruv but then asks 'does anyone know the affect it has had in other areas'. Maybe those that are against an Eruv could get off their behinds and qualify their opinions and judgemental responses by actually doing some research..... The facts are that you're getting hot under the collar about some poles and wires which will not have an effect on anyone but Jewish people and even then only one day a week. You may not get it (I dont to be honest), you may not believe its necessary but you're all panicking and acting like you're going to have to learn Hebrew and get your foreskin chopped off if you want to continue living in Bushey! No one is 'demanding' anyone does anything, how many different ways can you be told it will have zero impact on you before you actually get it? The point is that this is about your own prejudices and nothing actually about allowing some members of your community to do something which you wont even notice. I cant help believing if the internet had been around 60 years ago when immigrants started to really come to this country from our former colonies if you lot would have been saying similar things about people of different colour and nationalities coming to your area. What, someone from Africa living in Bushey. Its not on, its going to change the character blah blah. Well that kind of attitude isnt right and just because we're talking religion and not race doesnt make your attitudes over an eruv any better. If you're really scared of chance, how do you cope with every day life I wonder?

I find it interesting that for instance Popeonarope in the very first post is up in arms over an eruv but then asks 'does anyone know the affect it has had in other areas'.
Maybe those that are against an Eruv could get off their behinds and qualify their opinions and judgemental responses by actually doing some research.....
The facts are that you're getting hot under the collar about some poles and wires which will not have an effect on anyone but Jewish people and even then only one day a week. You may not get it (I dont to be honest), you may not believe its necessary but you're all panicking and acting like you're going to have to learn Hebrew and get your foreskin chopped off if you want to continue living in Bushey!
No one is 'demanding' anyone does anything, how many different ways can you be told it will have zero impact on you before you actually get it? The point is that this is about your own prejudices and nothing actually about allowing some members of your community to do something which you wont even notice.
I cant help believing if the internet had been around 60 years ago when immigrants started to really come to this country from our former colonies if you lot would have been saying similar things about people of different colour and nationalities coming to your area. What, someone from Africa living in Bushey. Its not on, its going to change the character blah blah. Well that kind of attitude isnt right and just because we're talking religion and not race doesnt make your attitudes over an eruv any better.
If you're really scared of chance, how do you cope with every day life I wonder?I find it interesting that for instance Popeonarope in the very first post is up in arms over an eruv but then asks 'does anyone know the affect it has had in other areas'.

Maybe those that are against an Eruv could get off their behinds and qualify their opinions and judgemental responses by actually doing some research.....

The facts are that you're getting hot under the collar about some poles and wires which will not have an effect on anyone but Jewish people and even then only one day a week. You may not get it (I dont to be honest), you may not believe its necessary but you're all panicking and acting like you're going to have to learn Hebrew and get your foreskin chopped off if you want to continue living in Bushey!

No one is 'demanding' anyone does anything, how many different ways can you be told it will have zero impact on you before you actually get it? The point is that this is about your own prejudices and nothing actually about allowing some members of your community to do something which you wont even notice.

I cant help believing if the internet had been around 60 years ago when immigrants started to really come to this country from our former colonies if you lot would have been saying similar things about people of different colour and nationalities coming to your area. What, someone from Africa living in Bushey. Its not on, its going to change the character blah blah. Well that kind of attitude isnt right and just because we're talking religion and not race doesnt make your attitudes over an eruv any better.

If you're really scared of chance, how do you cope with every day life I wonder?garston tony

Score: 0

2:59pm Wed 24 Jul 13Roy Stockdill says...

As usual, you miss the point, Tony. What some of us are saying is that it simply highlights the incongruity and hypocrisy of religion when religious sects - in this case Jews but it could just as easily be Catholics or Muslims - set out to find ways to subvert rules they find inconvenient. If they want to avoid having to obey their own rules, then why have them in the first place?

As usual, you miss the point, Tony.
What some of us are saying is that it simply highlights the incongruity and hypocrisy of religion when religious sects - in this case Jews but it could just as easily be Catholics or Muslims - set out to find ways to subvert rules they find inconvenient. If they want to avoid having to obey their own rules, then why have them in the first place?As usual, you miss the point, Tony.

What some of us are saying is that it simply highlights the incongruity and hypocrisy of religion when religious sects - in this case Jews but it could just as easily be Catholics or Muslims - set out to find ways to subvert rules they find inconvenient. If they want to avoid having to obey their own rules, then why have them in the first place?Roy Stockdill

Score: 0

3:31pm Wed 24 Jul 13LSC says...

You are only being defensive because this involves religion, Tony. What this is really about is preference given to one small section of the population. That is wrong on every level. If you were told any Chinese person gets a 10% discount if they bought a house on your road, but nobody elase does, you'd probably be against it. Not because you like or dislike Chinese people, just because that is not how we do things in this country. What would follow is a road with a disproportionate amount of Chinese people. Now, that might be great. But your corner shop might well start stocking more beansprouts than baked beans. Your local school might put more emphasis on the Chinese new year than our 31st Dec. Slowly, more Chinese move in and others move out. Soon there are language problems, as everyone around speaks Mandarin, so why bother with English? And then you get a community apart. A ghetto. And they are bad things.

You are only being defensive because this involves religion, Tony.
What this is really about is preference given to one small section of the population.
That is wrong on every level.
If you were told any Chinese person gets a 10% discount if they bought a house on your road, but nobody elase does, you'd probably be against it. Not because you like or dislike Chinese people, just because that is not how we do things in this country.
What would follow is a road with a disproportionate amount of Chinese people. Now, that might be great.
But your corner shop might well start stocking more beansprouts than baked beans. Your local school might put more emphasis on the Chinese new year than our 31st Dec. Slowly, more Chinese move in and others move out.
Soon there are language problems, as everyone around speaks Mandarin, so why bother with English?
And then you get a community apart. A ghetto. And they are bad things.You are only being defensive because this involves religion, Tony.
What this is really about is preference given to one small section of the population.

That is wrong on every level.

If you were told any Chinese person gets a 10% discount if they bought a house on your road, but nobody elase does, you'd probably be against it. Not because you like or dislike Chinese people, just because that is not how we do things in this country.

What would follow is a road with a disproportionate amount of Chinese people. Now, that might be great.
But your corner shop might well start stocking more beansprouts than baked beans. Your local school might put more emphasis on the Chinese new year than our 31st Dec. Slowly, more Chinese move in and others move out.
Soon there are language problems, as everyone around speaks Mandarin, so why bother with English?

And then you get a community apart. A ghetto. And they are bad things.LSC

Score: 0

4:10pm Wed 24 Jul 13MarsLander says...

Tony, are you actually saying that this will not have a disproportionate effect on the attractiveness of Bushey to jews who wish to ignore the weirder and stricter tenets of their religion? That does sound rather like burying ones head in the sand. I object on two grounds. I object, on principle, to a religious group making changes to the fabric of our streets. Any group, it just so happens to be jews this time. I object, on principle, to making one area more attractive to a religious sect than the areas surrounding it. I do believe there is every risk of affecting the mix of residents in Bushey and that it could lead to the area becoming disproportionately populated by jews who "follow" these extreme teachings, yet strangely do not wish to actually follow the rules as they are inconvenient. I have no objections to jews, but they should have no more chance of putting up poles and wires across the road than I should, and that is no chance.

Tony,
are you actually saying that this will not have a disproportionate effect on the attractiveness of Bushey to jews who wish to ignore the weirder and stricter tenets of their religion?
That does sound rather like burying ones head in the sand.
I object on two grounds.
I object, on principle, to a religious group making changes to the fabric of our streets. Any group, it just so happens to be jews this time.
I object, on principle, to making one area more attractive to a religious sect than the areas surrounding it. I do believe there is every risk of affecting the mix of residents in Bushey and that it could lead to the area becoming disproportionately populated by jews who "follow" these extreme teachings, yet strangely do not wish to actually follow the rules as they are inconvenient.
I have no objections to jews, but they should have no more chance of putting up poles and wires across the road than I should, and that is no chance.Tony,

are you actually saying that this will not have a disproportionate effect on the attractiveness of Bushey to jews who wish to ignore the weirder and stricter tenets of their religion?

That does sound rather like burying ones head in the sand.

I object on two grounds.

I object, on principle, to a religious group making changes to the fabric of our streets. Any group, it just so happens to be jews this time.

I object, on principle, to making one area more attractive to a religious sect than the areas surrounding it. I do believe there is every risk of affecting the mix of residents in Bushey and that it could lead to the area becoming disproportionately populated by jews who "follow" these extreme teachings, yet strangely do not wish to actually follow the rules as they are inconvenient.

I have no objections to jews, but they should have no more chance of putting up poles and wires across the road than I should, and that is no chance.MarsLander

Score: 0

12:26am Thu 25 Jul 13Popeonarope says...

Tony doesnt get it. Thats okay, sheep are not the best critical thinkers.

Tony doesnt get it. Thats okay, sheep are not the best critical thinkers.Tony doesnt get it. Thats okay, sheep are not the best critical thinkers.Popeonarope

Score: 6

11:10am Thu 25 Jul 13garston tony says...

Actually Roy, focusing on why people believe something is missing the point here. If people want to believe in Jewish Sabbath laws and then be hypocritical about it then its not something that impacts you is it? You dont believe in a god so its irrelevant to you if someone that does is seemingly trying to 'bend' rules that have no impact on anyone but themselves. Its like getting up in arms because someone thinks butter tastes better than margarine, you may prefer marge but if someone else prefers butter its not harming you is it if they spread it on their own toast. Its also not harming anyone if both are sold in the same shop ditto its not going to harm anyone if an Eruv is allowed in Bushey and its ridiculous to be getting worked up about it.

Actually Roy, focusing on why people believe something is missing the point here.
If people want to believe in Jewish Sabbath laws and then be hypocritical about it then its not something that impacts you is it? You dont believe in a god so its irrelevant to you if someone that does is seemingly trying to 'bend' rules that have no impact on anyone but themselves.
Its like getting up in arms because someone thinks butter tastes better than margarine, you may prefer marge but if someone else prefers butter its not harming you is it if they spread it on their own toast. Its also not harming anyone if both are sold in the same shop ditto its not going to harm anyone if an Eruv is allowed in Bushey and its ridiculous to be getting worked up about it.Actually Roy, focusing on why people believe something is missing the point here.

If people want to believe in Jewish Sabbath laws and then be hypocritical about it then its not something that impacts you is it? You dont believe in a god so its irrelevant to you if someone that does is seemingly trying to 'bend' rules that have no impact on anyone but themselves.

Its like getting up in arms because someone thinks butter tastes better than margarine, you may prefer marge but if someone else prefers butter its not harming you is it if they spread it on their own toast. Its also not harming anyone if both are sold in the same shop ditto its not going to harm anyone if an Eruv is allowed in Bushey and its ridiculous to be getting worked up about it.garston tony

Score: 0

11:14am Thu 25 Jul 13garston tony says...

No LSC, i'm arguing over prejudice and you claiming that an Eruv would give the Jewish community preference over anyone else proves that that is what this discussion is about. If you dont believe in a religion then this is about a group of people who believe they have to follow a set of rules that restricts what they and they alone can do at certain times. As ridiculous as it appears to an outsider all they are asking is for the erection of some poles and lines so that within the rules that they follow their lives are made a little easier one day a week. Its like me deciding to go on a fad diet where I can only eat certain things. But then i've been invited on a meal out on Saturday where it will be difficult or impossible to stick to my diet. So I decide if I go to the gym Saturday morning and do an hours work out i'll allow myself to go off diet that evening in the restaurant. Is me deciding to go on a diet going to affect the general public? No. Is me being invited out for a meal going to affect the general public? No Is me deciding that I can only go out for this meal if I go to the gym earlier that day affecting the general public? No Is someone deciding they want to be Jewish affecting the general public? No Is them deciding to follow certain rules in their own lives affecting the general public? No Is them deciding that they can bend these self impossed rules affecting the general public? No So everyone elses problem is......

No LSC, i'm arguing over prejudice and you claiming that an Eruv would give the Jewish community preference over anyone else proves that that is what this discussion is about.
If you dont believe in a religion then this is about a group of people who believe they have to follow a set of rules that restricts what they and they alone can do at certain times. As ridiculous as it appears to an outsider all they are asking is for the erection of some poles and lines so that within the rules that they follow their lives are made a little easier one day a week.
Its like me deciding to go on a fad diet where I can only eat certain things. But then i've been invited on a meal out on Saturday where it will be difficult or impossible to stick to my diet. So I decide if I go to the gym Saturday morning and do an hours work out i'll allow myself to go off diet that evening in the restaurant.
Is me deciding to go on a diet going to affect the general public? No.
Is me being invited out for a meal going to affect the general public? No
Is me deciding that I can only go out for this meal if I go to the gym earlier that day affecting the general public? No
Is someone deciding they want to be Jewish affecting the general public? No
Is them deciding to follow certain rules in their own lives affecting the general public? No
Is them deciding that they can bend these self impossed rules affecting the general public? No
So everyone elses problem is......No LSC, i'm arguing over prejudice and you claiming that an Eruv would give the Jewish community preference over anyone else proves that that is what this discussion is about.

If you dont believe in a religion then this is about a group of people who believe they have to follow a set of rules that restricts what they and they alone can do at certain times. As ridiculous as it appears to an outsider all they are asking is for the erection of some poles and lines so that within the rules that they follow their lives are made a little easier one day a week.

Its like me deciding to go on a fad diet where I can only eat certain things. But then i've been invited on a meal out on Saturday where it will be difficult or impossible to stick to my diet. So I decide if I go to the gym Saturday morning and do an hours work out i'll allow myself to go off diet that evening in the restaurant.

Is me deciding to go on a diet going to affect the general public? No.
Is me being invited out for a meal going to affect the general public? No
Is me deciding that I can only go out for this meal if I go to the gym earlier that day affecting the general public? No

Is someone deciding they want to be Jewish affecting the general public? No
Is them deciding to follow certain rules in their own lives affecting the general public? No
Is them deciding that they can bend these self impossed rules affecting the general public? No

So everyone elses problem is......garston tony

Score: 0

11:15am Thu 25 Jul 13garston tony says...

Youve totally failed to explain how an Eruv would give the jewish community preference over anyone else. Its not going to give Jewish people more rights than non Jews, the matter utterly and totally only affects people who follow the Jewish Sabbath rules. Period. And dont you think its a tad hypocritical to claim i'm only being defensive because this is about religion when you rarely fail to jump on any opportunity no matter how vague to attack people of faith? And your analogy totally fails too by the way, if an Eruv makes the area more attractive to people of the Jewish faith (and by the way you fail to have noticed that it already has a significant Jewish population so Eruv or no Eruv it ALREADY is an attractive area for people of that faith) people arent going to be forced to sell are they? Plus its already been pointed out that other areas with Eruv's enjoy a diverse population mix, so I take it you've once again decided to ignore the facts put to you and just continue to run with your own prejudices.

Youve totally failed to explain how an Eruv would give the jewish community preference over anyone else. Its not going to give Jewish people more rights than non Jews, the matter utterly and totally only affects people who follow the Jewish Sabbath rules. Period.
And dont you think its a tad hypocritical to claim i'm only being defensive because this is about religion when you rarely fail to jump on any opportunity no matter how vague to attack people of faith? And your analogy totally fails too by the way, if an Eruv makes the area more attractive to people of the Jewish faith (and by the way you fail to have noticed that it already has a significant Jewish population so Eruv or no Eruv it ALREADY is an attractive area for people of that faith) people arent going to be forced to sell are they? Plus its already been pointed out that other areas with Eruv's enjoy a diverse population mix, so I take it you've once again decided to ignore the facts put to you and just continue to run with your own prejudices.Youve totally failed to explain how an Eruv would give the jewish community preference over anyone else. Its not going to give Jewish people more rights than non Jews, the matter utterly and totally only affects people who follow the Jewish Sabbath rules. Period.

And dont you think its a tad hypocritical to claim i'm only being defensive because this is about religion when you rarely fail to jump on any opportunity no matter how vague to attack people of faith? And your analogy totally fails too by the way, if an Eruv makes the area more attractive to people of the Jewish faith (and by the way you fail to have noticed that it already has a significant Jewish population so Eruv or no Eruv it ALREADY is an attractive area for people of that faith) people arent going to be forced to sell are they? Plus its already been pointed out that other areas with Eruv's enjoy a diverse population mix, so I take it you've once again decided to ignore the facts put to you and just continue to run with your own prejudices.garston tony

Score: 0

11:17am Thu 25 Jul 13garston tony says...

Marslander if you have a problem with there being a number of people in an area that choose to follow certain rules that have no impact on your life then the problem is self inflicted. I do agree, if the poles etc dont conform to buiding/planning regs etc then no they shouldnt be allowed. But its hardly the end of the world is it? Or do you object to street lights, poles with traffic signs on them, zebra crossings, telephone lines etc? And dopepoperope, you're expressing populist prejudiced views and yet i'm the one whose a sheep hey. I have based my personal belief on extensive study of not just Christianity but many other beliefs out there including 'scientific' big bang theory. Judging by your comments i'm going to assume you got your opinion from some low grade tabloid.

Marslander if you have a problem with there being a number of people in an area that choose to follow certain rules that have no impact on your life then the problem is self inflicted.
I do agree, if the poles etc dont conform to buiding/planning regs etc then no they shouldnt be allowed. But its hardly the end of the world is it? Or do you object to street lights, poles with traffic signs on them, zebra crossings, telephone lines etc?
And dopepoperope, you're expressing populist prejudiced views and yet i'm the one whose a sheep hey. I have based my personal belief on extensive study of not just Christianity but many other beliefs out there including 'scientific' big bang theory. Judging by your comments i'm going to assume you got your opinion from some low grade tabloid.Marslander if you have a problem with there being a number of people in an area that choose to follow certain rules that have no impact on your life then the problem is self inflicted.

I do agree, if the poles etc dont conform to buiding/planning regs etc then no they shouldnt be allowed. But its hardly the end of the world is it? Or do you object to street lights, poles with traffic signs on them, zebra crossings, telephone lines etc?

And dopepoperope, you're expressing populist prejudiced views and yet i'm the one whose a sheep hey. I have based my personal belief on extensive study of not just Christianity but many other beliefs out there including 'scientific' big bang theory. Judging by your comments i'm going to assume you got your opinion from some low grade tabloid.garston tony

Score: 0

11:22am Thu 25 Jul 13MarsLander says...

Do you think that if it had been I that asked to put up poles around Bushey that the council would have considered dumping the conservation area and take the proposal seriously? The Jews are being given special privileges, just by being able to erect the poles and wires on the public highway. The answer should be no, no special dispensation for any religious group.

Do you think that if it had been I that asked to put up poles around Bushey that the council would have considered dumping the conservation area and take the proposal seriously?
The Jews are being given special privileges, just by being able to erect the poles and wires on the public highway.
The answer should be no, no special dispensation for any religious group.Do you think that if it had been I that asked to put up poles around Bushey that the council would have considered dumping the conservation area and take the proposal seriously?

The Jews are being given special privileges, just by being able to erect the poles and wires on the public highway.

The answer should be no, no special dispensation for any religious group.MarsLander

Score: 0

11:28am Thu 25 Jul 13mr_jrt says...

@Garston Tony It's a real shame people are focussing on the religious aspects here. The real danger is being drowned out here - the neutering of the planning protections for the area so these things can be erected. These protections are crucial for keeping Bushey's village-like atmosphere safe from developers eyeing up our green spaces and homes for high-density flats potentially 25 minutes from central London by train. On a personal level I actually agree working out loopholes in the rules you live by is somewhat hypocritical (and I think there's a general sentiment that puts it in the same moral category as corporate tax avoidance), but as you say, in this particular case it doesn't affect me directly so it's none of my business. I, like everyone else, am allowed an opinion on it though.

@Garston Tony
It's a real shame people are focussing on the religious aspects here. The real danger is being drowned out here - the neutering of the planning protections for the area so these things can be erected. These protections are crucial for keeping Bushey's village-like atmosphere safe from developers eyeing up our green spaces and homes for high-density flats potentially 25 minutes from central London by train.
On a personal level I actually agree working out loopholes in the rules you live by is somewhat hypocritical (and I think there's a general sentiment that puts it in the same moral category as corporate tax avoidance), but as you say, in this particular case it doesn't affect me directly so it's none of my business. I, like everyone else, am allowed an opinion on it though.@Garston Tony
It's a real shame people are focussing on the religious aspects here. The real danger is being drowned out here - the neutering of the planning protections for the area so these things can be erected. These protections are crucial for keeping Bushey's village-like atmosphere safe from developers eyeing up our green spaces and homes for high-density flats potentially 25 minutes from central London by train.

On a personal level I actually agree working out loopholes in the rules you live by is somewhat hypocritical (and I think there's a general sentiment that puts it in the same moral category as corporate tax avoidance), but as you say, in this particular case it doesn't affect me directly so it's none of my business. I, like everyone else, am allowed an opinion on it though.mr_jrt

Score: 0

11:35am Thu 25 Jul 13MarsLander says...

garston tony wrote…

Marslander if you have a problem with there being a number of people in an area that choose to follow certain rules that have no impact on your life then the problem is self inflicted. I do agree, if the poles etc dont conform to buiding/planning regs etc then no they shouldnt be allowed. But its hardly the end of the world is it? Or do you object to street lights, poles with traffic signs on them, zebra crossings, telephone lines etc? And dopepoperope, you're expressing populist prejudiced views and yet i'm the one whose a sheep hey. I have based my personal belief on extensive study of not just Christianity but many other beliefs out there including 'scientific' big bang theory. Judging by your comments i'm going to assume you got your opinion from some low grade tabloid.

You, possibly deliberately, misunderstand Tony. I have no problem with people wanting to follow any religion, cult or lifestyle so long as it does not affect me in any way and is harmless. Ultra-orthodox or fundamentalist jews living anywhere is not a problem to me. They have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else, including me. I can't put up poles in the street. I don't think they should either. Seeing jewish poles on the entry to my village and knowing they mark an enclave is something that I disagree with in principle. Non-religious street furniture and signs are considered by all and sundry as a necessary part of modern life, something I have no problem with whatsoever. You will find my objections only cover Eruv poles. I would as soon object to that area in London patrolled by Muslims who stop people drinking on the street and to cover up, saying it is a muslim something or other area. That is equally unwelcome. You see, I am all for equality.

[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote:
Marslander if you have a problem with there being a number of people in an area that choose to follow certain rules that have no impact on your life then the problem is self inflicted.
I do agree, if the poles etc dont conform to buiding/planning regs etc then no they shouldnt be allowed. But its hardly the end of the world is it? Or do you object to street lights, poles with traffic signs on them, zebra crossings, telephone lines etc?
And dopepoperope, you're expressing populist prejudiced views and yet i'm the one whose a sheep hey. I have based my personal belief on extensive study of not just Christianity but many other beliefs out there including 'scientific' big bang theory. Judging by your comments i'm going to assume you got your opinion from some low grade tabloid.[/p][/quote]You, possibly deliberately, misunderstand Tony. I have no problem with people wanting to follow any religion, cult or lifestyle so long as it does not affect me in any way and is harmless.
Ultra-orthodox or fundamentalist jews living anywhere is not a problem to me. They have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else, including me.
I can't put up poles in the street. I don't think they should either.
Seeing jewish poles on the entry to my village and knowing they mark an enclave is something that I disagree with in principle.
Non-religious street furniture and signs are considered by all and sundry as a necessary part of modern life, something I have no problem with whatsoever. You will find my objections only cover Eruv poles. I would as soon object to that area in London patrolled by Muslims who stop people drinking on the street and to cover up, saying it is a muslim something or other area. That is equally unwelcome.
You see, I am all for equality.

garston tony wrote:
Marslander if you have a problem with there being a number of people in an area that choose to follow certain rules that have no impact on your life then the problem is self inflicted.

I do agree, if the poles etc dont conform to buiding/planning regs etc then no they shouldnt be allowed. But its hardly the end of the world is it? Or do you object to street lights, poles with traffic signs on them, zebra crossings, telephone lines etc?

And dopepoperope, you're expressing populist prejudiced views and yet i'm the one whose a sheep hey. I have based my personal belief on extensive study of not just Christianity but many other beliefs out there including 'scientific' big bang theory. Judging by your comments i'm going to assume you got your opinion from some low grade tabloid.

You, possibly deliberately, misunderstand Tony. I have no problem with people wanting to follow any religion, cult or lifestyle so long as it does not affect me in any way and is harmless.

Ultra-orthodox or fundamentalist jews living anywhere is not a problem to me. They have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else, including me.

I can't put up poles in the street. I don't think they should either.

Seeing jewish poles on the entry to my village and knowing they mark an enclave is something that I disagree with in principle.

Non-religious street furniture and signs are considered by all and sundry as a necessary part of modern life, something I have no problem with whatsoever. You will find my objections only cover Eruv poles. I would as soon object to that area in London patrolled by Muslims who stop people drinking on the street and to cover up, saying it is a muslim something or other area. That is equally unwelcome.

You see, I am all for equality.MarsLander

Score: 0

10:10am Fri 26 Jul 13garston tony says...

Mars if the application to put these poles and wires up is within the planning regs then there is no 'special dispensation' if the application is granted. You're also talking like its a done deal, its an application that has been put in. No permission as been given. Mr-jrt, thank you for your post. At last someone who is putting forward actual non prejudiced objections to the poles and wires.

Mars if the application to put these poles and wires up is within the planning regs then there is no 'special dispensation' if the application is granted. You're also talking like its a done deal, its an application that has been put in. No permission as been given.
Mr-jrt, thank you for your post. At last someone who is putting forward actual non prejudiced objections to the poles and wires.Mars if the application to put these poles and wires up is within the planning regs then there is no 'special dispensation' if the application is granted. You're also talking like its a done deal, its an application that has been put in. No permission as been given.

Mr-jrt, thank you for your post. At last someone who is putting forward actual non prejudiced objections to the poles and wires.garston tony

Score: 0

10:36am Fri 26 Jul 13MarsLander says...

Tony, This is presumably outside planning regs which is why the council are considering doing away with the conservation area. I can see no other reason. If this is not special treatment, by a council with an alleged in-built bias, then I really don''t know what is. If this really is a lot of fuss over nothing, then that is what should happen, nothing. No change of status from conservation area and no Eruv.

Tony,
This is presumably outside planning regs which is why the council are considering doing away with the conservation area. I can see no other reason.
If this is not special treatment, by a council with an alleged in-built bias, then I really don''t know what is.
If this really is a lot of fuss over nothing, then that is what should happen, nothing. No change of status from conservation area and no Eruv.Tony,

This is presumably outside planning regs which is why the council are considering doing away with the conservation area. I can see no other reason.

If this is not special treatment, by a council with an alleged in-built bias, then I really don''t know what is.

If this really is a lot of fuss over nothing, then that is what should happen, nothing. No change of status from conservation area and no Eruv.MarsLander

Score: 0

9:17am Mon 29 Jul 13garston tony says...

MarsLander wrote…

Tony, This is presumably outside planning regs which is why the council are considering doing away with the conservation area. I can see no other reason. If this is not special treatment, by a council with an alleged in-built bias, then I really don''t know what is. If this really is a lot of fuss over nothing, then that is what should happen, nothing. No change of status from conservation area and no Eruv.

The key word is 'presume'. Why dont you actually find out then?

[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote:
Tony, This is presumably outside planning regs which is why the council are considering doing away with the conservation area. I can see no other reason. If this is not special treatment, by a council with an alleged in-built bias, then I really don''t know what is. If this really is a lot of fuss over nothing, then that is what should happen, nothing. No change of status from conservation area and no Eruv.[/p][/quote]The key word is 'presume'.
Why dont you actually find out then?

MarsLander wrote:
Tony, This is presumably outside planning regs which is why the council are considering doing away with the conservation area. I can see no other reason. If this is not special treatment, by a council with an alleged in-built bias, then I really don''t know what is. If this really is a lot of fuss over nothing, then that is what should happen, nothing. No change of status from conservation area and no Eruv.

The key word is 'presume'.

Why dont you actually find out then?garston tony

Score: 0

1:16pm Mon 29 Jul 13MarsLander says...

Tony, I am afraid I have no way of finding this out easily, not being a resident of Bushey, otherwise I could potentially contact my councillor for information. I have simply taken the facts as presented, analysed them, thrown in a morsel of council skulduggery and raised the question of whether this prognosis could be correct. Perhaps one of the councillors would be so kind as to inform us via this thread. Such controversial issues are often monitored by those with vested interests, even though they may run silent.

Tony,
I am afraid I have no way of finding this out easily, not being a resident of Bushey, otherwise I could potentially contact my councillor for information.
I have simply taken the facts as presented, analysed them, thrown in a morsel of council skulduggery and raised the question of whether this prognosis could be correct.
Perhaps one of the councillors would be so kind as to inform us via this thread. Such controversial issues are often monitored by those with vested interests, even though they may run silent.Tony,

I am afraid I have no way of finding this out easily, not being a resident of Bushey, otherwise I could potentially contact my councillor for information.

I have simply taken the facts as presented, analysed them, thrown in a morsel of council skulduggery and raised the question of whether this prognosis could be correct.

Perhaps one of the councillors would be so kind as to inform us via this thread. Such controversial issues are often monitored by those with vested interests, even though they may run silent.MarsLander

Score: 0

2:33pm Mon 29 Jul 13mr_jrt says...

May be a bit late to comment on by the time you read it, but: http://m.watfordobse rver.co.uk/news/1051 3230.Politicians_mul l_rescinding_Bushey_ High_Road_conservati on_status/

May be a bit late to comment on by the time you read it, but:
http://m.watfordobse
rver.co.uk/news/1051
3230.Politicians_mul
l_rescinding_Bushey_
High_Road_conservati
on_status/May be a bit late to comment on by the time you read it, but:
http://m.watfordobse
rver.co.uk/news/1051
3230.Politicians_mul
l_rescinding_Bushey_
High_Road_conservati
on_status/mr_jrt

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