The assumption they are more ruthless but turn on me and mine and I will go toe to toe. I bet more feel like I do.

More organized? Initially but the good guy side will have plenty of vets and cops ready to whip their good raw but willing friends and neighbors into a force to be reckoned with. Seems more than one gang (James, Dalton) got owned by the man on the street. Oh and don't for a minute think SHTF that man on the street won't be packing SOMETHING.

They are better armed? HA. Better shots? HA HA.

I will hear all the sneers about sheeple but I suspect many you take for victims have more backbone and teeth than that first glance says.

I think bad guys will be on the defense because nobody wants to deal with human vermin when they got so many other problems.

I feel that you've made a lot of assumptions about people making assumptions... In your scenario, we will have 310 million people competing for resources. At least 90% of this country isn't 100% self sufficient. When people lose everything, and there's nothing left to lose, people lose it. Hence, normally decent people will turn into savages. Providing they're not in large groups, I wouldn't worry so much about the savages that are running on emotion over intellect. It's the small raiding groups that are running on intellect over emotion that I fear.

Without the rule of law, people change. Just shoot another person over a simple heated debate because nobody’s going to care or come looking for you.

What makes you assume that the military and police are going to be on your side? They’re not on your side now, so what would make them suddenly have a change of heart?

I personally know a few Marines. They were honor students in school, and some hold AS and BS degrees. They are highly intelligent and educated. They went in the Corps because they saw it as an elite unit. They could have done any MOS they wanted, but they picked 0311 infantry because they wanted to go to Iraq and Afghanistan to kill. When I watch them talk about spending 4 or more tours in those two places as a grunt, I can see that they actually miss it. They can’t wait for our nation to fail so they can take what they want. Rape, pillage and mayhem is their motto. How many other young men do we have out there like this?

You think you’re safe in your small tight community because you’re all armed and can hit a static 1 gallon milk jug at 600 yards from a sand bagged high powered rifle on a bright sunny windless day? I guess you can’t imagine a group of five men stalking your group of 20 and taking you out one by one as you do your chores and empty your honey buckets. These people will dictate the fight. I’m not talking about some rabble that does a banzi charge but rather people that are either trained or have learned how to assault a larger static community of armed farmers/homesteaders.

Now imagine groups of rouge military and police coming online along with people passing themselves off as military. I just participated in a homeless vets drive. We stood along the street collecting money for the local VFW. I’ve been 25 years out of the Marine Corps. I stood there with other Marines in their 20s. As we all chatted, I spoke their language, they spoke mine, and one would never have known we were 20 years apart in age. The man in charge said, "You're welcome to come, but look like you're in the military." I do not have any MARPAT, so I wore German Flecktarn. It even had the German flag on each shoulder, yet civilians that stopped,threw money in my bucket, thanked me for my service and wanted to know if I was still a Marine... We could have all dressed in German Flecktarn and sang "Wenn die Soldaten durch die Stadt maschieren," and I bet most civilians wouldn't have known the difference. My point is, we have a lot of veterans out there and it’s not hard for them to pass themselves off as current military. Hence, fake police and faux military will obviously spring up along with militia groups.

How about religious zealots that see the collapse as the wrath of God, and they take it upon themselves to form a Spanish Inquisition, and they go around burning non believers at the stake to purify the earth.

Groups of mono race/culture blacks, whites, and Hispanics along with other races and or religions going out and hunting the others in an attempt to purge the land because it’s whitey’s fault, the darkies caused this, or whatever reason they can come up with.

Men sick of how American women have gotten more rights than they have, women who feel it’s a man’s world, I mean this country is rife with all sorts of race, interracial, religious, and economic tension.

Hence in a world without the rule of law, don’t think you’re going to be safe in your community just because you have a couple of ex Army guys that were in supplies and logistics or a cop or two has joined you, and you’re all mostly rural farm boys and or hunters. The aforementioned dangers are real, and they’re out there.

Cheers and thanks for reading,
Fold, Spindle, & Mutilate

Last edited by FoldSpindle&Mutilate; 11-10-2012 at 02:14 PM..
Reason: I am no Rhodes scholar...

I think Matt Bracken's scenario of a race war post-economic collapse is the most realistic. In fact, he thinks the breakdown the food stamp system (EBT cards read $0.00) could be one of the catalysts for urban minority - white suburban violence.

is not about giving them their due..there is no "due" coming to them...it is about being aware of the danger they pose to you and your family...and unlike most norma human beings most of them lack empathy, and border in the sociopatic realm of mental health. for them stealing, hurting another human being, killing, raping, etc is par for the course and they don't have the moral restraints that you and I have..if the SHTF they will be the greatest danger we face..

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lol I can never see a post like this and not be remember when the crips came to town here. This is an Angels town but they didn't have to lift a finger. In short order they got chased back to the city be a group of about 50 rednecks lol. So I guess it would depend on the people in you town and how 'redneck' they are. Just to point out in shooting gophers, coyotes, badgers the target is alot smaller than that the human body presents.

lol I can never see a post like this and not be remember when the crips came to town here. This is an Angels town but they didn't have to lift a finger. In short order they got chased back to the city be a group of about 50 rednecks lol. So I guess it would depend on the people in you town and how 'redneck' they are. Just to point out in shooting gophers, coyotes, badgers the target is alot smaller than that the human body presents.

IMO a group of 50 people banning together protect each other is the definiton of a Gang, maybe not a criminal gang or a street gang but that group of 50 in a teotwawki situation will be just as dangerous when they run out of food and water.

IMO a group of 50 people banning together protect each other is the definiton of a Gang, maybe not a criminal gang or a street gang but that group of 50 in a teotwawki situation will be just as dangerous when they run out of food and water.

Ummm, No.

A group of neighbors banning together to defend their homes in a subdivision behaves absolutely nothing at all like an organized street gang specifically organized to commit criminal acts.

You can debate semantics all you want, but the fact is that the former is designed for defensive operations, while the latter is optimized to commit criminal acts.

A group of neighbors banning together to defend their homes in a subdivision behaves absolutely nothing at all like an organized street gang specifically organized to commit criminal acts.

You can debate semantics all you want, but the fact is that the former is designed for defensive operations, while the latter is optimized to commit criminal acts.

Your are quite right there and I totally agree it is very different. But I also said after those 50 ran out of food and water. do you think those 50 starving people are going to stay in "defensive" mode? starvation and feeding loved ones can turn and offensive person into a defensive person especially if you have 50 people behind you.

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How about religious zealots that see the collapse as the wrath of God, and they take it upon themselves to form a Spanish Inquisition, and they go around burning non believers at the stake to purify the earth.

I was right there with you till you unloaded this ignorant load of crap.This is the same bulls*** we keep hearing from idiots like Rosie O'Donnel, about being more afraid of right-wing Christians than she is of the islamists. This is ASININE. Christians are not a bunch creepy,oppressive "Children of the Corn" types waiting to start a new Salem witch hunt. In fact, what's coming is Christians and Jews being burnt at the stake, not the other way around, and we're already seeing the beginnings of this persecution mentality on TV,popular music,etc. and in frequent comments like yours.
This country was largely founded by deeply commited Christians ( as proven by countless writings and statements from them) yet they chose to create the most religiously free country in history, rather than the dark,middle-ages theocracy so many people somehow fear they're longing to do now.

The assumption that gangs would rule has to do with their casualness towards violence. You can't consider yourself tough or prepared for a fight if you've never been in one. It is true that if you have weapons, practice with them, group up with like minded individuals you stand a better chance. However the reason you want leo's, ex-military, etc in your group is because they know how to be violent when needed. Everyone thinks that when threatened they will immediately react in the manner we see in the movies, it doesn't happen that way. Gangs thrive on fear and intimidation, how do they achieve this? Violence. The average person spends there whole life being told to avoid conflict, to walk away, to only fight if absolutely necessary, the downside of this is when it comes time to fight, you don't know how, or your body's own fight or flight system gets you so jibbed up you freeze or panic. For example when I was in high school I was never in any fights if someone started a fight with me out of pride I wouldn't back down but I would be slow to react, because of my body's own response to increase my hr and flood itself with endorphins. I thought fights were something you saw on t.v.,people exchanging blows and being all noble about it, it doesn't work that way. In college I joined a fraternity, there were alot of fights (not saying this is a good thing), but what I quickly learned was how to fight (get on the offense and don't stop, if you do they will hurt you) and also that most people no matter there size don't want to fight, they want to but there not used to it, they don't do it regularly, after you get used to it, your not afraid of it, it becomes normal, casual. You quickly learn who really wants to fight and who doesn't, you can see it in there demeanor the way they carry themselves and talk(hint people that really do, don't talk about it first they just do it). My point is gangs, leo's, military. They have been trained to fight, they do it over and over and it becomes normal so when it does happen they don't freak or freeze. This gives them the initial advantage during a conflict or SHTF event where normal people are waiting for someone to announce that a line has been crossed and its now okay to use violence (this won't happen by the way, so you better already know where your line is) so until regular people start to see a little action the further into a conflict you get then the better you will become at repelling/fighting or fleeing them because you will learn from experience and the violence will be more casual to you. I'm not saying go out and pick a bunch of fights (no matter who you are you win some and you lose some, learn from it) but I would recommend for most people out there taking self defense/martial arts classess, not kata, but sparring, wrestling. Practice getting up close and personal and hitting, putting yourself in stress-full physical situations because the other thing with gangs is alot of them are punks that thrive on fear and intimidation and if your not intimidated they might just move along and pick an easier mark, or at the very least your gonna make them pay for what they try.

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This is a great book has some great information about the transformation that takes place in a city under siege. At first this may seem counter intuitive but it actually fits this topic quite well. The book details how a city under siege is transformed from a mentality of were all in this siege together in stage one to how the only thing left living in the city are gangs. Eventually the only thing left is one gang and eventually they to die off.

My perspective is that read about the past to see what will take place in the future. Granted a lot has changed since the days of the Roman conquest of ancient Israel. One thing has not is the condition of Men's/Women's hearts. Sad but true!

I was right there with you till you unloaded this ignorant load of crap.This is the same bulls*** we keep hearing from idiots like Rosie O'Donnel, about being more afraid of right-wing Christians than she is of the islamists. This is ASININE. Christians are not a bunch creepy,oppressive "Children of the Corn" types waiting to start a new Salem witch hunt. In fact, what's coming is Christians and Jews being burnt at the stake, not the other way around, and we're already seeing the beginnings of this persecution mentality on TV,popular music,etc. and in frequent comments like yours.
This country was largely founded by deeply commited Christians ( as proven by countless writings and statements from them) yet they chose to create the most religiously free country in history, rather than the dark,middle-ages theocracy so many people somehow fear they're longing to do now.

The fact that you can't obviously see what's happened in the past is being a bit naive in my opinion. I was exploring possibilities. It's a possibility. The fact that I forgot to add religious persecution was my fault, it will obviously happen, and the fact that it was excluded was due to banging my post off the cuff.

I do not have a crystal ball. I do not like religion and I think it's a problem in this country. Separation of church and state wasn't to keep the government out of the church, it was to keep the church out of the government. We are full of Christian puritanical laws, and I loathe them strongly.

The fact that you were with me until I wrote about religious crap seems to indicate that you're all for liberty until it goes against your belief system. Religions obviously a problem. Whether you're for, against, or have middle or no views, it's going to be an issue along with everything that makes us different.

I'll agree with you on one thing, I'm sure that Christians will be obvious targets. I know I'd have no problem in a lawless land with lynching them. I've been attacked and oppressed by them my entire life. At first it was because I was Catholic and attended Catholic school, married a Catholic girl that attended Catholic school, and we sent our son to Catholic school. Now I'm attacked by them because I'm not religious, so I can obviously see why Christians may find themselves under attack without the rule of law. "You reap what you sow" as Christians like to say... Don't bother me with Catholicism is a form of Christianity. I already know that, but there are obvious differences between born again Christians and Catholics.

Personally, in today's world, I fear the government, military, and our police more than any religious faction, even the Muslims.

Cheers and thanks for reading,
Fold, Spindle, & Mutilate

Last edited by FoldSpindle&Mutilate; 11-16-2012 at 08:26 PM..
Reason: I am no Rhode scholar...

When law and order break down or become overwhelmed survival instinct takes control. Humans don't react well to fear and hunger. Prolonged fear and hunger make otherwise rational and civilized people react to try and survive. Those on this board will have food, arms and other needed supplies. We're the people that those civilized rational people currently call nuts, apocalyptic zealots, dooms dayers, the crazy fringe. When they're hunger and scared and discover you've got food, clean water and other supplies do you think they might want some? What do you think they'll do to get it? Be careful who knows you have the ability to weather a crisis long term. Look at how Greece's citizens have reacted over hearing their retirement age may go up two years and the gov't benefits may be reduced. Those folks in the streets aren't even hungry and without heat/AC, TV or anything that is a threat to their lives. Only their wallets. Multiply that 1000x and you'll have some idea what you need to do to prepare just for the defense of your life and your family. If you have been canning and stocking up on batteries but ignoring a defensive plan I'd recommend you begin. Your defense plan better include some offense preparation. It's starts between your ears. Your mindset better be right or your supplies won't help much. There is evil and it doesn't hesitate, you can't either.

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I do not have a crystal ball. I do not like religion and I think it's a problem in this country. Separation of church and state wasn't to keep the government out of the church, it was to keep the church out of the government. We are full of Christian puritanical laws, and I loathe them strongly.

You sir are deluded. You best re-read the words of the founders from the Federalist Papers to the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution. You may even wish to go back a little further to the writings of Adam Smith, John Locke, Montesquiue, Aristotle and Plato. Then trace those men's words to their root and you'll find them based on Nature's Law to Mosaic Law. Nature's Law is another way of saying natural law. That's the foundation for "Unalienable Rights" or in kindergarten terms you'll understand...from God.

Separation of church and state was to protect religion FROM gov't. All religion, even your belief in no religion is protected. Who would it need to be protected from? Government enforcing religion it chose on YOU. I could make this a post for 10,000 pages but I'll stop there. What possible reason would government need protection. They have weapons and armies. It is the individual that need and was granted protection FROM government. We the people...

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