Skepticism

EVENTS

Did anyone complain?

This should make you ill. It’s from B-SHOC, some awful hack of a Christian rapper who normally proselytizes at churches and revivals, where he belongs. In this one, though, he’s bragging about performing in a public school in South Carolina, at the invitation of the school principal.

This was an explicitly sectarian event, done with the goal of converting students to Christianity, and at the end he brags about ‘saving’ 324 students for his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In a public school.

Can you say “violation of the separation of church and state”, boys and girls?

The comments on the video are revealing.

That was so awesome that you was to do what no body was able to do before which is going into a public school. Awesome B-Shoc only you can﻿ pull that off

Ungrammatical and proud of peddling stupidity in school — I am not surprised.

I was amused at the part where one of the zealots claims that the teachers teach “evolution 5 days a week, 9 months a year”. Yeah, right. Otherwise, I’m not laughing. This is egregious and vile.

Comments

Beh, I tried posting a comment to the video but it had to be approved first, I don’t know if it’s YT or the uploader that decides, but I wouldn’t be suprised if it were the latter and that’s why there are no complaints in the comments atleast.

As many times as this kind of crap has been slapped down by the courts, why the hell don’t we have criminal penalties for violations like this? If you could apply the Rico act to it, you could take whole congregations to jail, in their own church buses.

I know I’ve mentioned this before, but this same thing happened at my high school when I was going there. Worse yet, there were snake oil claims that converting to Christianity cured him of his mental handicap. They at least had the decency to wait until after school to do the real proselytizing. (And if I’m not mistaken, they’re from the church that uses that school for the meetings on weekends!)

From the BoingBoing article, that’s gotta be real gangster when you’re up on stage, got the lights down, the beats high…and your mom and little brother in the audience. Okay, so I don’t KNOW for sure that’s his mom and kid brother, but I’m at a loss to think of anyone else who would be standing there.

Of course no one complained! I’m guessing that this is some small, Southern community where the local congregation is the center and penultimate arbiter of all social life. Anyone with different or no religious affiliation probably knows to keep quiet in the face of fundie orthodoxy lest they become pariahs in an already insular society.

When I was in high school, back in the 1970’s, we had an assembly featuring some sort of gymnastics team. After the gymnasts flopped around like dying fish on the mats for awhile, they each stepped forward to tell us of their personal relationships with Christ.
We had no warning, and there were many complaints. And few souls were saved; my slacker generation cohorts were simply not interested.
Take it outside, godboy.

My high school had an assembly supposedly about improving your self-esteem but it transitioned right into Jesusland partway through. I was irritated, but didn’t think to find out about registering complaints. My favorite teachers admitted there was something wrong with it, but, wanting to not stir the waters, they did nothing as well. I regret this now. At least, even in podunk America none of my classmates seemed anything but bored. There should be consequences, nevertheless.

Given the black-or-white worldview of your average fundamentalist, the comment about non-stop teaching of evolution actually makes sense. In their eyes, if you’re not teaching ID/creation science, then you ARE teaching evolution. There is no middle ground, on this or anything else. When I think about the major cognitive difference between liberals and conservatives, it always comes back to binary versus pluralistic worldview.

How the fuck can they so blatantly get away with this clear church/state violation. This is the kind of shit that pisses atheists off. You don’t see us being invited into public schools to lecture on how god is bullshit.

This is an aesthetic version of the moralistic fallacy. Unless you decide to use another word for it, like “noise” or “barbecued chicken” or something, you’re still calling it music.

It’s not like the quotation marks give us much useful information. They just convey that you don’t like it, for some obscure reason. You could’ve described why, or modified the word in some way, rather than let the punctuation do the work; but given the music in question, I can understand why you wouldn’t bother spending much time looking for the right words. Since it was just a throwaway line at the end, rather than part of some substantial line of argument, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with just dismissing it or joking about it without further comment. I don’t read your blog for its in-depth art criticism anyway, but you’d be awfully confused if you seriously believed this literally is not music. It’s in the category of music you don’t like, which I’m sure you wouldn’t define as completely empty.

Funny. So at that Boing Boing link, the meat of it’s really an ‘ORLY?’. As in: seriously, guy, you’re going on about how this alleged ‘rock star’ lifestyle of every night in the clubs was wearing on your soul, and so you hadda get back to Jaysus? How, exactly, does that work, when you were never so much a rock star as an internet gag to begin with?

… in fairness, mind, maybe being a running internet gag is just as hard on your soul.

Sorta more seriously: this is just one of the standard conversion narratives, seems to me. This is option (c) on the form: please check the box labelled ‘The glamour of my now former way cool but emptily hedonistic ‘n oh so debauched showbiz life did not fill me; thus I am here to tell you with joy how much better it is to slice open yer skull and deposit yer quivering brain onto this collection plate’. There are certain minimal entrance requirements before you can check this box, but it is generally available to former child stars reduced to making bad YouTube videos, the more cringeworthy of the Baldwins, and so on…

As to the content of the narrative itself, well, there, too, we have certain requirements, see? Certain elements are mandatory. You had to be debauched ‘n empty in your former life or it just doesn’t work, and if you never quite made the rock star grade, well, hell, buddy, you’re expected to exaggerate in such recountings anyway. It’s a conversion narrative, after all; lil’ details like accuracy are secondary to following the tradition, here. And oh, also, implying you had fame and gave it up is good. See, that way you’re saying this lovely god of yours is worth far more to you than such a worldly ‘n empty achievement as human accolades. Again: just an expected element in the standard sales pitch.

And let’s face it: the trouble with ‘I was a running internet joke so I figured it really wasn’t much of a step down career-wise to take the ‘saved, irritatingly, smug/milquetoast ‘n generally profane mockery of a rocker’ gig anyway’, well, that particular story just doesn’t have the same (probably also mostly empty) promise of potential cachet with the target audience as does debauched ‘n empty/now saved. As, I expect this nut and the folk promoting him are just savvy enough to realize ‘I was a running internet joke’ doesn’t exactly scream cool to anyone. ‘I was debauched ‘n famous/now I’m saved’, that may have slightly better potential…

Just in case people are confusing rap/hip hop with this shit. Well here is the track I heard in 1985 or so that made me think… hey that ain’t so bad… not religious, not secular, just…. FRESH!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDkqz5C62SM
Still love it 26 years later.

In my public school we were handed out free bibles in our freshman year, and the school litany we were forced to recite centered around the Lord (barf).

This is in New Zealand, where less than half the population is Christian and anyone who opposes secularity is deemed crazy. But somehow Christianity always finds a way to wriggle through the cracks and seep into the education system. Sigh.

So why then is religious music, and especially Christian music, so fucking awful today[?]! The same goes for art.

I suppose because their ideas are so often so fucking awful. To the extent that it is religious, I’d say it is flawed; but as they say, 90% of everything is crap. So, merely being flawed is well ahead of the curve. That goes for religious or secular art.

@43: It was the Gideons here (in the 80s) usually twice a yr or so. They’d come with like 8 or 10 boxes of the little NT Gideons in pretty colors. You’d see them left on the bus and all around the “mushrooms” (our smoking areas).

From that, here are some remarks about the performance:
New Heights Middle School

B-SHOC TV – B-SHOC performs in Public School (324 students got saved)http://www.youtube.com
B-SHOC performed in a public school in Jefferson South Carolina at New Heights Middle School. 324 students got saved.
Like · · Share · September 15 at 8:31pm

Dakota Ray Evans why didnt he come to crms??
September 15 at 8:44pm · Like

New Heights Middle School Most Public schools will not allow religious speakers to come talk. But Mr. Stinson truely stands out and allows people like that to come.
September 15 at 8:49pm · Like

Dakota Ray Evans oh well do you remember me?
September 15 at 8:50pm · Like

New Heights Middle School I’m not a teacher I’m a represenative from the county.
September 15 at 8:52pm · Like

At the bottom of this is:
Connect with Christian Chapman and B-SHOC
(links to the two Christian performers)

…and lower down is a description of the event itself:
Christian Chapman and B-SHOC visit NHMS
By: Amber Moser, Hawk News Team Correspondent

A worship rally took place at New Heights Middle School on Thursday, September 1, 2011. When walking into the gym, you would normally see bleachers and basketball goals, but on this day, the lights were dimmed and smoke filled the air. A pastor and a rapper took center stage. B-SHOC, a Christian rapper performed first in the gym. He was able to get the kids to really interact with him. Jumping, clapping, singing…the students were all stirred up and captivated by B-SHOC’s mesmerizing light show. While performing, lyrics on the screen got the kids singing and rapping about Jesus. After B-SHOC’s interactive performance, Christian Chapman, a youth evangelist took over. He delivered a serious address, but at the same time brought a little humor into it. Through telling his own testimony and other personal experiences, he brought a powerful message to which the middle school students could easily relate. Before the day ended, 324 kids had either been saved, or had re-committed their lives to the Lord. These two men, with help from volunteers did an amazing job in speaking to the hearts of these kids. They touched the lives of some very important people – our youth. The overall experience was astounding.

So why then is religious music, and especially Christian music, so fucking awful today[?]! The same goes for art.

In my opinion, it’s because back in the day, you HAD to be Christian or else not get your music heard. Christianity was the be-all and end-all of educational and artistic opportunities, at least in Bach’s day, and to a certain extent, also in Coltrane’s.

To be fair, Gifta Gab and Chali 2na are both gifted rappers who occasionally insert religious thoughts into their lyrics. The song also seems to be about eating people, so make of it what you will. But then, none of these artists makes “Christian” music, to the exclusion of any other type of artistic endeavor, and I think that is what makes the difference: only someone whose options and intelligence were truly limited would conclude that making art solely to propagandize for Christianity was a good path to take. That, or someone who’s just greedy and entirely lacking in scruples.

In my opinion, it’s because back in the day, you HAD to be Christian or else not get your music heard. Christianity was the be-all and end-all of educational and artistic opportunities, at least in Bach’s day, and to a certain extent, also in Coltrane’s.

In Bach’s day, and for a couple of centuries afterward, the church was the biggest patron of the arts and pretty much financed the educations and careers of people like Bach. There were various sorts of “street” performers, troubadours and meistersingers and so forth, who performed for the poorer sorts, but they favored simpler songs and often, due to lack of musical education, didn’t write things down for posterity. Musical literacy was guarded just like general literacy.
It’s a matter of the church having tried to monopolize music; they had the money and the power to lock up the best musicians, who, like musicians of today, tend to enjoy eating. Singing, playing and writing for “the glory of God” was the best deal going, they got paid regularly and didn’t have to sing for their supper.
Also, it’s hard to write love songs for arranged marriages and such.

For instance listed at the top of the page for September 28th is a event noted as “See you at the Pole” which is a event organized by christians whereby they gather around the school’s flagpole before the start of the school day to pray. You can find more information on the event here. Insofar as it is claimed that it is student-initiated, organized and lead I wonder what the legal status of the event would be given the fact that the school district seems to be advertising it for the students.

A little more disturbing is the reference to “Bethel Colony Presentation” on October 27th. I don’t really know what made me suspicious but a quick Google of “bethel colony” lead me to this page. If this indeed the organization that is going to give this nebulous “presentation” what do you want to bet that more than a little ol’ time religion is going to be preached with their message.

Wow! Who’d have thought that a small town in South Carolina would have 324 students who’d never heard of Jesus & therefore needed to be saved. Unless they were already Christian, then they become extra-saved and metamorphosise into True Christians™.

The ratings are disabled, and comments require approval. I doubt my comment will be approved. I wrote:

This a blatant violation of the U.S. Constitution, (establishment clause of the first amendment). The Principal should be fired, and all teachers and staff who participated should be reprimanded, if not fired. One of the parents could file a lawsuit that could cost the school millions of dollars. There is no way the school could win such a lawsuit.

Oh please let them try this crap in my kids’ school. Then again, even though I think I’m likely to run across a few issues with my neighborhood elementary school, I don’t think they’d be this stupid. And I can’t wait until he gets to high school, where my wife tells me they didn’t recite the pledge when she went there. Advantages of a mid sized city over a small town.

But one thing about this irks me that isn’t quite as big a deal as the violation of the first amendment, but still shows gross irresponsibility: the setting off of the fire alarm. OK, maybe this guy really never has done a show ANYWHERE, but he’s got some decent technology, so someone on his crew must have, and they’ve got to know that fog sets of fire alarms in most public buildings. It happens all the time and they should have been proactive about it. Instead he sets off a fire alarm in a school full of kids, then laughs about it on camera and laughs about the enormous waste of time and money involved in a small town fire department having to roll out for a preventable false alarm. What a jerk.

@grumps – thanks for the Doug E Fresh flashback. I am now twelve again. That was sweet.

B-SHOC is a local “celebrity”, I’ve actually seen this dick a few times at Wal-Mart. His videos were shot in and around the Toccoa/Stephens County area. His music sucks, his message sucks, and if there happens to be a Jesus Pep-rally at my sons’ school, I will file a complaint. I know better now.

At my kids’ middle school, there is a certain ISS teacher who would repeatedly call her charges to kneel down in front of her and “accept Jesus into your heart.” My son told her that he was a free-thinker and that
she was violating his constitutional rights. He was given five days OSS for “disruptive behavior”. I wish now that I had taken a complaint to the schoolboard, but I feared retaliation from school administrators.

1. On why Christian rock sux: Rock and roll is almost always an expression of indulgence and/or swagger. In short, it is about autonomy. Christianity is about abstinence and/or supplication. It cannot rock. It just can’t.

2. My wife and I are dealing with exactly this sort of thing (although less overt and more insidious) right now in another small town in the south. My daughter is in the public pre-K down the block from where we live. She was sent home yesterday with a permission slip to join the “X Elementary Good News” club: a group that meets for an hour after school each week for “bible study”*. This club is the only extracurricular activity that my daughter has been invited to join. This is clearly a violation of the US first amendment. My wife and I are on the fence about how hard to fight this. On one hand, it is complete bullshit. On the other, my kid is four and I have little interest in alienating her from the community of which she will likely grow up a member. My daughter isn’t required to go, and will largely be unaffected by the existence of the club.

I have been fairly active (and vocal and not anonymous) in keeping religion out of the classroom in my state. As this isn’t a classroom issue, I am not sure what my commitment is to entering the fray. The fact that I am unsure is making me feel somewhat unprincipled. Fuck.

Apparently someone is taking action. From David Sanders’ Facebook page:

“The Battle is here
by David Sanders on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 at 10:54am
To all who hold to Christ Jesus as your Savior and your LORD, Mr Stinson (principle of NHMS) is being visited by the superintendent today concerning the Sept. 1st event. Be much in prayer for him, it seems that the CCSD has received many calls from anti-religious activist who are trying to raise a BIG stink. This is Satan’s way to scare God’s elect away from standing up for The LORD’s TRUTH and being willing obediently step through another open door to share HIS MESSAGE and support another event. Plus it is going to make it more difficult to move ahead with the ones we are working on, AKA McBee and Brandon Smith is working with Dr. Starling about an after school event at Central. Buckle up the ARMOR OF GOD tight, hold your SHIELD OF FAITH firmly, whiled the WORD OF GOD boldly and PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!!! LET US FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH BY STANDING FIRMLY ON OUR GOD, OUR FATHER, OUR REDEEMER and OUR FRIEND. He has promised to be with us, to never leave us. He has promised that HE will hear the prayers of His people, if they will earnestly seek Him with confessing and repentant hearts. Lift your voices to CRY OUT to our LORD.
Pastor David”

You make an interesting point about religion being one of the only channels for creative artists. This might also explain why religious music has become positively hideous from the mid-20th century onwards. The talent is going elsewhere and the quality of Christian music has gone down as well.

Also, rock music is about sex at the end of the day and, try as the Christians might, it just doesn’t seem suited to “praise music.”

Wow, what hatred you people have. Don’t cry and get upset because evolution is so easy to defeat. To me it is so ridiculous that people believe out in the middle of nothing, where there was nothing, and nothing was happening, and nobody was there to be witness to nothing, all this incredible life and creation came to be. The definition of Science is to search truth so I’m completely in favor of teaching the importance of science because I believe that many things in science lead us to the understanding that there is a God who loves us all and created us for a purpose. Check out the laminin protein and remember that Colossians 1:17 says “That in Him (Jesus) all things are held together and the laminin protein is the number one thing in our body that holds us together as human beings and that protein under a microscope is in the perfect shape of a cross and we all know who lost His life on a cross because of His love for us. The amazing thing about this love is that He would even die and love people that hate Him and post all these hate comments about Him and those who believe. I love those who are athiest and those who believe in evolution so why do athiest and evolutionist hate Christians because we believe something different? I say let the teachers teach science and evolution all day and let me have 1 hour and the battle will be over, wherever that battle takes place. Because the thing we need most as human beings is love, encouragement, hope, relationships, forgiveness, and gentleness. By the way, i’m the guy preaching in the clip and i posted this because I didnt want everyone on this page thinking Christians are cowards because we are not. I think everyone is mad because you lost…get used to it because without Jesus there is more to come. But I love you and pray that God reach out to with truth becuase science has been wrong many times in the past, not something i would base my hope on. You can post hate and respond but i wont read it, i did what God called me to do, peace and love John 3:16

Personally, I find your beliefs to be ridiculous, but even if they weren’t you’re missing the point. The Constitution of the United States of America forbids the favoring of any religion in a public-funded institutions, period.

My dear Christian Chapman, the moment you fail to distinguish the difference between disagreement and disapproval with hatred, that is the moment you demonstrate that you are not worth taking seriously.

Tell, me, would you be this defensive of what the school did if it had been a Muslim rapper and preacher there, trying to get kids to convert from Christianity to Islam?

Unless your answer is HECK YEAH, you have outlined much of the problem for yourself already.

– getting at peoples’ children to try and convert them to your religion is just plain sleazy.

– this violates separation of church and state, which, regardless of how you claim to hate it, you yourself support — unless you want the state telling you how to be a christian within your house of worship and home, or that the state religion is now, say, Hinduism.

– This could easily get the principal, any school employees who helped organize this, and the school district sued, and in the event of losing, the local taxpayers would have to chip in, asshole.

– You’re living in a small town in the heart of the South. Just how many of those children do you really think needed to hear about Jesus so bad it couldn’t wait until Sunday?

Mr Chapman: I don’t give a crap what your personal beliefs are, I don’t give a crap if you accept evolution or not (but you SHOULD take a first year biology course since you clearly don’t understand what evolution is), but how dare you, sir, infringe on the rights of others! Religion is like a penis, friend. It’s fine to have one and it’s great to be proud of it, but don’t take it into the public forum and don’t shove it down my or my kids’ throats.

Furthermore, you ignorant redneck, be aware that there are a lot more of us educated free-thinkers deep in the heart of Dixie then you’d expect. You’re wrong, we haven’t “lost” anything.
Perhaps you should grow up a little, learn to think for yourself, and quit talking to your imaginary friend.

Update: FWIW, federal courts in the US have ruled that after-school bible study groups that meet in public schools are not a violation of the first amendment. In fact preventing such a group from meeting is a violation. Maybe I was being twitchy.

I really don’t see the problem with this. They did not MAKE the kids go to this. The principal announced that the event was going to be taking place a WEEK before it happened. Every child at that school had the option to go to the “concert” or not. What is so wrong with that? They weren’t forcing the kids to listen to the message or accept God. Everyone has their right to believe what they want. If you want to believe in God, good for you. If you don’t believe in him or anything at all, well then good for you! I think that what this principal did was good and I do not see what is so wrong with what has happened.

I still don’t think you understand. The Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment FORBIDS any public institution from promoting religion. In practical terms, this means that schools cannot support religious events. If the students wanted to organize this concert during non-school hours, that would have been fine. They could even use school facilities to do so. The fact that the principal announced the concert is prima facie evidence that he was promoting the event. This is simply not allowed. The fact that the students had a choice to attend or not is irrelevant.

Lots of things wrong and potentially wrong. Is the school spending government money on the show? Then it’s a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Does the school provide equivalent opportunities for secular pop music? Do the kids who attend that school get frequent chances to go to secular music shows? I know I didn’t until I got a driver’s license and a job and simply went off and found my own entertainment.

Your claim that no one was forced is specious. Sure, no one was bodily forced, but peer pressure can be intense. The vary fact that the student population of that school is overwhelmingly Christian means simply not showing up could leave a kid open to various types of bullying.

There could even be more subtle pressure from the faculty. It’s very easy to make a kid feel like they’re going to bring a lot of trouble on their heads if they don’t attend.

A kid shouldn’t have to skip a social event at their public school in order to avoid being proselytized at, and parents shouldn’t have to worry about people trying to convert their kids at a public school event.

@Doug &95
What about freedom of speech? I do understand that it may have been better if it was after school. But, if an atheist went into that school and converted that many students I would feel the same as I do now. Its’s up to the kids. They do what they want, yes, they can fall under peer pressure but that doesn’t mean that they seriously accepted Christ. They could say “yea I’m a christian and I accept God” just so that they don’t get bullied but underneath they’re not & haven’t, that’s their business. As far as the faculty go, again I say that’s them. If any of them pressured a child to going, then that was definitely wrong, no doubt.

Yes, what about freedom of speech? How would you feel if the kids were forced to attend a graphic description of sexual activities, followed by a recruiting drive for the Communist Party, and then teachers announcing communist cell meetings after school every Tuesday?

It’s easy to say that you would be okay if an atheist went into the school, when this has never been done. In practice, we see, over and over, Christians organizing to prevent atheists to go into the schools and the military bases.

As an individual, on his or her own time, yes. As the top dog in a government institution, no. Then he’s speaking on behalf of the government.

But, if an atheist went into that school and converted that many students I would feel the same as I do now. Its’s up to the kids.

What if you were a devout Muslim and your kid was feeling pressure to attend? What if your kid attended and converted – left the One True Faith in which you had raised them?

There are lots of issues at play here but the tyranny of the majority is one we need to keep in mind. Simply being the overwhelming majority of the school population makes anyone not in that group automatically slightly “Other” already.

They do what they want, yes, they can fall under peer pressure but that doesn’t mean that they seriously accepted Christ. They could say “yea I’m a christian and I accept God” just so that they don’t get bullied but underneath they’re not & haven’t, that’s their business.

That’s completely beside the point. Kids should not have to resist that sort of religious peer pressure at a public school.

As to kids not seriously converting, of course no one really converted. In fact I’d bet even money that most of the kids who “rededicated their lives to Christ” had already rededicated their lives to Christ at least once previously. It’s expected to step forward and pretend to having your life changed, and it allows the evangelist to proclaim huge bogus number of people saved, which then allows people who weren’t there to pretend that a fantastic blessing occurred, when all that really happened is a semi-captive audience heard some awful rap music and a lot of preaching.

Freedom of speech is a right of the individual, not of the government. In this case, the concert represented government endorsed speech, thus not protected by the 1st Amendment. Although the situation with an atheist would have been somewhat different (atheism in not really a religion, although it is a philosophical concept related to religion), the same rules would apply. Contrary to wide-spread belief, it is not forbidden to talk about religion in school, you just can’t promote any religion. If the school had sponsored a panel discussion or debate in which religious and\or non-religious views were discussed in an educational context, this would be allowable under the 1st amendment. It’s also not forbidden to pray in school, but organized prayer of any kind is not allowed during school hours, regardless of who does the organizing.

@Vicki
What exactly does sexual activities have to do with this situation? Also I’m sure that it’s an even split seeing that people are already trying to take God and prayer out of schools, Under God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, & In God We Trust off money. I respect every one of the opinions on this page, but my still remains the same and it’s not going to change. I would rather live my life knowing there is a God and die to find out there’s not a God than to live my life full of sin thinking that there is not a God and find out that he is there.

Also I’m sure that it’s an even split seeing that people are already trying to take God and prayer out of schools, Under God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, & In God We Trust off money.

It’s not an even split. If it were an even split, the “other side,” as you see it, would be campaigning not only to remove references to god from our money and public ceremonies, but to insert language explicitly denying the possibility of god’s existence. For instance, on a dollar bill, we could have the legend, “We trust in no gods.” In the pledge of allegiance, we could say, “I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, which recognizes no god or gods.” And so on and so forth.

The fact that you can’t correctly perceive the asymmetry is probably due to your privileged position as a member of the majority religious group in this country. You lack data about what it’s like to not be part of the minority, at least in this respect.

It’s also not forbidden to pray in school, but organized prayer of any kind is not allowed during school hours, regardless of who does the organizing.

Unless the prayer is student-organized, and doesn’t disrupt instructional time. Student organized prayers during, for example, the lunch break (I assume that this counts as ‘school hours’), are allowed, and indeed, can’t be forbidden by the school. This is how I understand US Law, at least.

I would rather live my life knowing there is a God and die to find out there’s not a God than to live my life full of sin thinking that there is not a God and find out that he is there.

Pascal’s Wager is terribly misleading. It assumes you can choose the correct god out of all the available gods, and that you can read the mind of that god.

Considering all the different religions (even mono-theistic ones such as the Abrahamic religions, or the deistic ones like several versions of Buddhism and Taoism), and all the conflicting things that are labeled “sins” in each, this seems impossible.

What happens if the Muslims are right, and you are not living your life correctly? You’re pretty screwed, aren’t you?

Pascal’s wager is really stacked against you.

Consider: you die, and you go before god, and it turns out to be Allah, and not YHWH. What are you going to say? “Uhm, I believed in a god, but it wasn’t you. Sorry.” You have no reasonable defense.

Rather, it is better to live an intellectually honest life, so that when you die, you can honestly say to the god which confronts you, “I lived my life by reason, and reason dictated there was no god. If you had desired a different outcome, perhaps you should’ve either given evidence of your existence, or removed my reason.”

Of course, if god exists, it seems to have done the latter for many people.

I would rather live my life knowing there is a God and die to find out there’s not a God

This shows why it is so hard to have logical and rational discussions with some godbots. If there is no god, you won’t find out after dying. You will be dead.

Try instead asking the questions:

What conclusive physical evidence is there for the biblical deity? (None)

What conclusive physical evidence is there fore the bible being inerrant? (None)

Then really read the bible word for word straight through, and ask yourself in the middle of the old testament: Is this a deity I can really worship, or is it more of an amoral crime lord with delusions of adequacy? (the latter)

I really like your quote about living life honestly. If I do ever have to face a deity, I plan to steal it. So much of Christian philosophy seems to boil down to god demanding that people believe in him unconditionally, while providing only scanty and misleading evidence of his existence. I believe that an honest, worthy God is not going to being playing this game of ‘gotcha’, especially with the souls of beings he claims to love.

didn’t force them to go? What was the alternative activity? If there was none– if the non-attending students just sat in a room somewhere, with some school employees keeping an eye on them to make sure they kept quiet and studied for their classes (every time the public schools I attended had programs with an opt-out, this was the alternative), waiting for the rest of the school to finish and for classes to start back up, that’s actually a lot of pressure to attend.

“What if you were a devout Muslim and your kid was feeling pressure to attend? What if your kid attended and converted – left the One True Faith in which you had raised them?”

I believe that is between that child and their family memebers in the privacy of their own home.

I said YOU, not some nameless, faceless other that you really don’t have to think about, but you.

Can you do this? Can you imagine yourself as part of a minority religion? A religion that constantly gets referred to as terrorists? Can you imagine what it’s like to be constantly reminded that you are THEM, to have your patriotism, citizenship and even your right to live here frequently challenged simply because of your religion?

Can you imagine your kid going to school each day, being reminded over and over of the little ways in which they are different, having to be twice as normal to be half as accepted, including the subtle and not subtle ways in which their NOT BEING RIGHT WITH JESUS is always there, even when unstated?

And then the school hosts an after-school music show. COOL! Your kid can go there and hang with their classmates and maybe start to fit in a little better. COOL!

Only not cool at all.

If you are so sure that none of them really “converted” then why this becoming such a big deal?

Because it’s not about fear of conversion, it’s about kids being discriminated against.

You don’t even understand that tax dollars WERE used to proselytize. How can you participate in a conversation when you don’t understand the topic?

Here’s something I don’t understand about what you are all arguing:How long has it been since you were in school? If there’s an announcement made at school saying you can either go to this really awesome rock concert or you can go to class which one are you going to choose? You all keep saying “they had a choice” come on! Do you actually know any middle school aged kids? No kid I know would choose class over a concert. Heck, they’ll do just about anything to get out of class.

I’ll even grant you the choice thing. So they had a choice. They *chose* to go to the concert instead of go to class. Tax dollars are paid to educate children. The taxes were paid but instead the children were preached at. Tax dollars were clearly used in this instance to proselytize. When Ranger Rick comes in during school hours to teach kids about forest fires tax dollars pay for that too but it’s legal. You see, Ranger Rick teaches children important things like not starting fires. What did dumb-schoc teach the kids? Imaginary friends are okay? Worshiping a human sacrifice is cool? Faith is good?

-the students that opted not to go were allowed free time in the library, to do whatever they pleased.

-the principal payed for the event out of his own pocket.

-also, it makes no difference to him if he is fired. he’s retired from nc, so he’s already making bank.

-it’s amusing that you spend so much of your energy trollin’ it up about a subject (Christianity) that you don’t even believe in.

-get off the first amendment bullshit- there are no “rights” inside of a public school building.

-it was a belief, not an educational lecture. my us history teacher believed that 43 was the ultimate answer. should i complain and act like a dumbfounded ignoramus because he insulted the law of reason? do you really care that much?

-dumb fucks from jefferson/pageland, let it go. you’re angry about mr. stinson allowing this event, but youll be the first to want him back when the middle school goes back to shit like it was before he came.

-also retards from jefferson/pageland that are raising hell, and i know youre posting on this site– i bet mr. stinson was the man who put those uniforms on your child’s back, and paid for their lunch and bought them their christmas presents– because youre broke ass couldnt do so.

-this is south carolina, not west virginia– incest is looked down upon.

-there’s a difference in being educated & an ignorant asshole.

-what’s wrong with believing there’s something better to life than just cruel-hearted people and internet trolls?

-would you rather believe you were the product of another human being or from a fucking monkey?

-if you can be successful and intelligent, then why does it matter if you practice a religion?

-and its true, a majority of these kid’s arent truly saved in the eyes of a God that may or may not exist, they just had some kind of emotional experience, because believing someone is there, is enough for them.

-being angry and upset, posting hate comments about Bshoc & Mr. Stinson, storming the school board, isnt going to change the fact that it happened. Bshoc will continue doing what he’s doing, Mr. Stinson will still be getting paid, & you all will still be internet trolling junkies.

-i wont respond not because im a coward, i wont respond because i dont give a lovely motherfuck about stir crazy jackasses.

umad, if you’re a product of the school in question, this tells me everything I need to know about the place. Right now, my main concern is for the kids in that schoolthat might actually want, need, and deserve to get out of the place. Perhaps we should start a fund to rescue them?

You are young and arrogant, so I’d bet cash money that you are reading this. Unfortunately, you are also ignorant. I only hope you are not stupid as well. As for all your empty speechifying, note that the adults you admire are trying to cover up the fact that this event even happened.

#113 — the principal paid for the event out of his own pocket? And you are privy to this information how? Please offer proof that this isn’t just more school rumors, because this sounds like just more of that. Also it has no bearing on the legality of the event.

@umad, #113: Please, go back to English class and learn grammar, punctuation and spelling. Go back to Civics class and learn what the COTUS actually says, and finally go back to Biology class and learn all about evolution.

Mr. Stinson knowingly and willfully broke the law. He may be a stand-up guy, but he infringed on the rights of the students. Maybe he should have exercised better judgement.

Finally, I didn’t quite understand your comment about the origins of humans, especially your humble beginning. Did you say something about incest and fucking a monkey?

-get off the first amendment bullshit- there are no “rights” inside of a public school building.

Really? Could you please cite the law stating this? Does this mean the principal can strip-search any boy that strikes his fancy? Does this mean that the Unitarians can open a church in the school? Does this mean that seniors can select freshmen as chattel slaves? Is the absurdity of your statement clear, or do I need to go on?

I go to new heights , you guys are all dumb as fuck, like really? you fat trollz have nothing better to do .? well argue with me if you want a fight you have one!! anything you need to know i have the answer. but i hope you will be happy when our school goes back to shit and gangs saying your kid being exposed to god is bad even though they had the option not to go, or have your kids ass beat every day of their live
? haha thank you silly fat lazy hating trollz .. keep on trollin oh and its funny how mr. stinson pays for half your kids lunches you poor bastards … hahahah

I am sick of seeing this stuff posted about the school and the principal. It amazes me how people who have never walked through the halls of this school in question can voice so much concern over one issue. Also, someone mentioned that tax dollars were used for this event, how do you know for a fact this was the case. Don’t we have more important issues to worry about, teen pregnancy on the rise, drugs in he hands of young children, students who can’t read and write by the time they get to high school, drop-out rates on the rise, need I say more? So what if there was a concert, seems to me the students were given a choice to attend or not. I also take offense to people making comments about the people that live there or teach there. I don’t criticize anyone for having their own thoughts, but have any of you that made comments about “rescuing” the kids there, even stepped foot through the door to see that maybe, just maybe, they are truly happy at this school? I think that anyone that can sit here and make post about a school, a town, students, teachers, and a principal without having the opportunity to meet any of them, needs to check to see if they are even human…maybe that is what is wrong with the world today, too quick to judge and react, without being smart and knowledgeable about the people and the situation. Wake up people and smell the roses! Our kids need a whole lot more than adults worrying about a little religion.

Fuck, dude. If that’s the level of education from New Heights, that schools system really is fucked. You are damned near unintelligible, and almost completely illiterate. Have you graduated yet, or is there still hope you might get something resembling an education?

I am sick of seeing this stuff posted about the school and the principal.

Then I suggest you stop reading these posts. If you are unable to emotionally bear the load of criticism, you might perhaps entertain yourself here.

Also, someone mentioned that tax dollars were used for this event, how do you know for a fact this was the case.

Wow. A question posed as a statement.

Assuming it really was a question, it’s simply a matter of deduction. Was the assembly held during regular school hours? Then the staff, location, and utilities were all paid with tax dollars. It’s as simple as that.

Wake up people and smell the roses! Our kids need a whole lot more than adults worrying about a little religion.

Riiiight. Because religion is completely harmless. Because the Constitution is just a piece of paper that doesn’t mean anything, that doesn’t stand for some higher ideals. Because it’s all right to force religion down the throats of youths, as long as it’s your religion.

Actually, teen pregnancy rates have been falling since their high point in 1991. Drug usage rates are also down. Some of the highest rates of both, however, are found in the rural south. Since some of your comments seem to be directed at me, I’ll answer your questions. I’m a professor, and what I want to see more than anything is students in my classroom who have been taught to think hard and critically about everything. Unfortunately, the kids at this school don’t seem to receiving this kind of education. Granted, I have never been to the school, and perhaps it’s unfair to base too much on one incident. However, based on the nature of the remarks in this thread from some of the students and supporters of the school, which are rife with grammatical, punctuation, usage, and spelling errors, I’m guessing that there are some serious problems at NHMS. Instead of offering them concerts and evangelical Christian events which are clearly a violation of the constitution, wouldn’t it make more sense to offer them rigorous English courses, and continue to teach it to them until they have learned it? The, once they have those basics out of the way, we could move to the more significant aspects of their education, like teaching them to THINK. In the long run, I think this will make them happy, not some ginned up religious experience centered on a god for which no evidence exists. I want those kids to be pushed and challenged every day of their school lives. I don’t want them entertained with mindless pablum of any kind, even if it makes them “happy”. So yes, I want to rescue them. I also want to rescue those teachers at that school (and I’m sure there are more than a few of them) that are dedicated professionals who can’t do their jobs because their community looks askance at deviating from the fundamentalist Christian party line. I’m sure they are embarrassed as hell by this whole episode. I’d also like to help the parents who want true education for their children but can’t get it because Mr. Stinson (well meaning though he may be) is in the way. I’d even like to rescue Mr. Stinson, because for all I know he may just be a fine and caring, if somewhat misguided man. If that makes me arrogant, well, so be it. I’ve been called a lot worse. I love teaching young adults. I love to see them learn. And I want the best raw material I can get in my classroom, and that means quality education at all levels. So, off the soapbox now, and I hope you understand where I’m coming from.

Who said anything about me having a religion? Again, assuming before you have the facts!

I honestly don’t give a fuck about your religious beliefs. The simple fact it, it was done on school time, and was clearly a violation of the Constitutional separation of church and state. Either you support the Constitution, or you don’t.

Evidently the teachers are doing something right at that school. The state report card has shown tremendous gains in the past four years, which has been the time since this principal has been there. I have never said that it was right or wrong what he did as a principal. I just can’t agree with the fact that people can talk about other people in a demeaning way and not even know them. How is this FAIR to them? Just talk about the issue at hand but don’t demoralize those that you don’t know…stick with the facts!

And the fact is that the principal has willingly put the school district in an untennable position. The school district will get sued — what he did has been found, numerous times, to be unconstitional. And the district will lose. And the taxpayers of that district will be paying for the lawsuit — lawyers get paid even when they defend something that is obviously against the law.

Oh, and ‘demoralize’? I think you might mean ‘demonize’. With that word, the sentence would actually make sense.

Just talk about the issue at hand but don’t demoralize those that you don’t know…stick with the facts!

Don’t you mean “demonize”? Anyways, I have been judging the school from the posts from its defenders.

While the principal may have trained his students to jump through the standardized testing hoops in the proper manner, the poster (and seemingly a student) known as “umad?” showed a profound amount of ignorance about the Constitution. Usually an extreme lack of knowledge in one aspect of an education indicates that there are problems elsewhere. It may not be true in this case, but I think that is extremely unlikely.

And I think that any principal who is willing to flout the Constitution of the United States to promote his own religious beliefs is morally suspect. His job is not to save souls. His job is to run a public school according to the laws of his county, his state, and the United States. If he is not willing to do that, he should find another job.

Roughly 78% of the United States identifies as some form of Christian, and it will never cease to amaze me how often they feel the need to proselytize outside of a proper forum (i.e., a church).

If Christians find it necessary to disrupt the educational activities at a public school in order to spread their message, then it obviously isn’t as strong as they think. After all, if it was really effective, Sunday service would be enough.

I go to new heights , you guys are all dumb as fuck, like really? you fat trollz have nothing better to do .? well argue with me if you want a fight you have one!! anything you need to know i have the answer. but i hope you will be happy when our school goes back to shit and gangs saying your kid being exposed to god is bad even though they had the option not to go, or have your kids ass beat every day of their live
? haha thank you silly fat lazy hating trollz .. keep on trollin oh and its funny how mr. stinson pays for half your kids lunches you poor bastards … hahahah

IN MY OPINION B-SHOC WAS A NICE GIFT TO US BECAUSE HE ENCURAGED US TO BELIVE IN God EVEN WHEN TIMES ARE TOUGH AND THE SCHOOL BOARDS BREATHING DOWN OUR BACKS SO WE NEED TO TAKE TIME ANND GIVE SO THOUGHT TO GOD BECAUSE WE HAVE TO LIVE IN POVERTY AT HOME AND WERE TO TIRED TO GO TO CHURCH.SO FOR ALL U JESUS HATERS AND NONBELIVERS YOU WILL SOON KNOW WHO IS GOD AND U WILL REGRET EVER SAYING AWFUL TINGS ABOUT HIM IM ONLY 12 BUT I KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG AND YOU NEED TO START LEARNING.SO STOP HATEN AND START LIVING:P

Posting on a thread that ended weeks ago with a barely literate, damned near unreadable and almost all capitalized screed is not going to convince anyone that your god exists. Nor does it show that why it is a good idea to act as you do.

Yep, you must believe in something without evidence. There is no evidence for your imaginary deity, or your babble being inerrant. The evidence points to both concepts being lies. And you believe due to presupposing those as being true without look at the real evidence.

You can’t show any evidence that any deity exists, much less Yahweh. You can’t prove any holy book is absolutely true, they all lie here and there, and the babble is one of the worst. People who believe without evidence are delusional fools. Guess what you are…