KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.

From their POV im sure they knew all along it was too good and that players should have never had it in the first place. The warlock revamp has been a smashing success (in the terms of growing and revitalising the warlock playerbase) and now they have just decided is the right time to reign in some of the ponys given to warlocks.

And nobody likes having their pony taken away, as shown by this thread.

you do know that KJC when it was given to us, was so craptastically bad that no1 took it?

You wish.
KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria.

Look at Raidbots and change time back to older patches. See something interesting? Through 5.1, 2 specs are absolutely destroying everyone else, Arcane and Affliction. This was back when Affli was balanced as turret spec, expected to loose ton of damage by moving, and having higher dps when it can stand still. Since the tier didn't require that much movement, both Affli and Arcane were dominating the meters (with Affli having extra edge on multidotting fights).

5.2 hits, we're no longer outshooting everyone. In fact, both Boomkins and Shadowpriest, who have 'so much problems' with movement, are just behind Affli, who can cast everything on move, and is gaining most from smart usage of procs of all. We are balanced now around not loosing dps on move at all.

Is it so hard to grasp that taking away KJC now means that Affli either needs to be akin to Arcane Mage and get massive Malefic/signle target buff (way more dps than anyone if able to stand still, loosing ton through movement bringing it back to around what other specs are doing on actual fights) or will simply fall off charts?

Not a bad idea. Out of the gate in 5.0 they all sucked. Mannoroth and KJC got decent buffs and still no one even knows what the third talent is. But now, they plan to nerf KJC and Mannoroth will no longer cause embers. So what's the point?

On a side note - Level 90 talents are supposed to be "awesome sauce." For some classes they still are, for hunters, locks and mages, they are uncontestably "garbage."

On a side note - Level 90 talents are supposed to be "awesome sauce." For some classes they still are, for hunters, locks and mages, they are uncontestably "garbage."

Yup, they should kill 2 birds with one stone by redesigning it into a Doom Guard / Infernal / Pit Lord talent tier, it'll give them a chance to fix the problem of the infernal being absolute garbage that never gets used and a way of replacing our current talents, which are just stupid. KJC is the only one with any worth and it beats the others hands down on any none-aoe fight, MF is either the best or the worst depending on the fight, and AV is just garbage - you can't have a talent tier where both

a) All of the talents are vastly different, not having any overlap in the roles they take
b) you don't have one talent that is taken 90% of the time for "vanilla" encounters where the others don't shine

Is it so hard to grasp that taking away KJC now means that Affli either needs to be akin to Arcane Mage and get massive Malefic/signle target buff (way more dps than anyone if able to stand still, loosing ton through movement bringing it back to around what other specs are doing on actual fights) or will simply fall off charts?

Or perhaps you just need to use your imagination and stop pretending the only possible, conceivable, plausible, workable solutions that could potentially exist in the wow universe could come down to choosing between "A: massive buff to X - or - B: Accept the end of world is coming"? Your melodramatic post doesn't do anything to help your argument.

Or perhaps you just need to use your imagination and stop pretending the only possible, conceivable, plausible, workable solutions that could potentially exist in the wow universe could come down to choosing between "A or B"?

I doubt anyone disputes that, the problem being - option C seems to be retooling the class fairly significantly so that all of our damage isn't piled into MGing with haunt up.

Now, what makes most sense - allowing KJC to remain in the same (or a slightly nerfed, most people seem content with filler only) state for one more raiding tier when all signs indicate it's not making us perform any higher than everyone else, then doing some major changes when the next expansion hits, or rebuilding the core rotation of a class in the middleof an expansion, when all signs seem to indicate they don't know how to fix at this very moment?

Our damage comes from dots, malefic grasp, and pets. There isn't really much room to wiggle. Dots will get reverted, they hotfixed them even this tier because multidotting was too strong. Malefic grasp roots us, currently we are expected to keep it up 100% of time, if next tier we aren't able to do that, and not get compensation on it (on top of getting low-dps spell on move), we will drop drop severly. And pets won't get buffed because they already got enough complains around BM eating face through pillars. So exactly what changes are there more except those and redesigning class?

Last time I checked warlocks were still at around the same population, only beating monks.

I also don't get how you can be claiming it's both not necessary AND too good

I'll say it again, warlocks are not miles ahead of other classes on any encounters that we use KJC because of it. That means

a) Either KJC isn't "too good" because it's not making us any better than everyone else
b) KJC is good, but we apparently need it just to keep up with everyone else, ergo it IS necesary

and don't even PRETEND warlocks are doing particularly well in pvp right now, let alone without it.

If you're going to sit there claiming that KJC is some overpowered talent, can you at least offer some basis for that other than your gut feeling?

That's the thing blizz has noted about the warlock changes, it didn't really do what blizz wanted.

I think this tweet basically says this:

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 7 May

@genericuser661 @x_Evil_Mind_x Yes. We wanted to see if an overhaul rekindled interest or if the problem is something deeper in the design.

The changes to warlocks didn't make warlocks all that more popular or taken, it's why blizz has decided no more overhauls, as they don't work and won't do what they wanted, the warlock changes were an experiment, one that failed to do totally what they wanted.

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 9 May

@MrNicholes Ideally we try to do a little of both. Some players get bored of the old systems even if they are very well polished.

Or perhaps you just need to use your imagination and stop pretending the only possible, conceivable, plausible, workable solutions that could potentially exist in the wow universe could come down to choosing between "A: massive buff to X - or - B: Accept the end of world is coming"? Your melodramatic post doesn't do anything to help your argument.

I will start taking count of how many times you use the word 'melodramatic.'

I'm surprised Blizzard hasn't thought to revisit the pre-Landfall implementation of KJC, whose cast time penalty was rather reasonable for PVE content. That model forced me to pay attention to what I was casting during movement.

Range vs melee: filler spell mechanics and movement

Ive never played anything but my warlock so ive never thought too much about how a melee can constantly move while casters must stand still most of the time.

After using kc for the past 6 months it seems very silly that we should be casting a filler spell standing still. I guess my ignorance was bliss, but now that i see the light it's like wtf... Casting while standing still seems so primal at this point in wow.

They will probably end up giving all casters full movement during filler eventually, but wont be until next expansion.

At this point in the game it just seems very silly to have to stand still to cast drain soul, for 12 very long seconds

KJC was given to warlocks simply because the dev's went all out in the warlock revamp for Pandaria. They knew they had to boost the population and gave warlocks a bunch of the funnest and coolest tools. KJC was one of them. And you know what? It worked. Warlocks are the flavour of the expansion.

From their POV im sure they knew all along it was too good and that players should have never had it in the first place. The warlock revamp has been a smashing success (in the terms of growing and revitalising the warlock playerbase) and now they have just decided is the right time to reign in some of the ponys given to warlocks.

And nobody likes having their pony taken away, as shown by this thread.

Yeah we get it. We don't need another mage or (Insert Class here) coming in to the thread and trying to passively say "sucks to be you, you guys deserved the nerf."

This is quite interesting. I agree about malefic grasp + KJC being mandatory ATM. But it shouldn't be that way. One talent can't be/shouldn't be mandatory to make a spec work. Refreshing dot's can be easily done while moving but I agree it's not an option most of the time.

As for demo and destro, no spells to cast o move? You gotta be kidding me!

No spells to cast on move???? lololol
-------
People keep bringing mages. Yeah, frost has a lot of instants (maybe too many, kinda like demo huh?). Fire has scorch, Mage Bomb and Pyro (oh wait! 3 spells, kinda like Destro!) - AND NO, no fire mages take Icy Floes, no fire mages waste inferno blasts only for movement. And there is arcane, which has a bomb, Barrage and weak fireblast (casting barrage purely for movement can mess with your rotation, severely affecting dps).
-------
KJC is stupid. It trivializes what should be (as Blizzard states) a CHALLENGE for casters, movement. There is no "should I cast this right now?". It's always "fuck it! If a sand trap spawns on me, who cares? I lol hard!"
If you don't believe it, youtube any boss video in a LOCK PoV (hint: he/she is always jumping, moving, which makes much easier to deal with many mechanics).
-------
KJC is stupid. If 100% casting on the move has to be implemented, it has to be for everyone as a baseline game mechanic.

Interesting you look at a ~1+ year old sig and then feel compelled to say that Kagecamia. Please stop embarassing yourself. What we dont need Warlocks is sticking their head in the sand and pretending that the world is ending, nor prepared to put forward reasonable ideas and discussion.

KJC is stupid. If 100% casting on the move has to be implemented, it has to be for everyone as a baseline game mechanic.eas for solutions.

I think thatd be fun for a PTR build test. Give every caster KJC on the ptr for a build and see/observe what happens.

Fel flame is now a 2-school scorch (double lockout on interrupt? another spell with cast time for destruction? How does this affect void ray?)
Fel flame has a cast time of 1.5 seconds and can be casted while moving (was instant with 1.5s gcd, now interruptable and has cast/flight time)
Fel flame DoT extension is removed. This means proc refreshes after a pandemic refresh will cost us 3 gcd's instead of 2 for affliction.
Fel flame damage will be buffed, but the amount of damage will not sway you away from your spec's filler.
DoT damage receiving a compensation increase. DoT damage was previously reduced to balance multi-target cleaving, so either the compensation isn't very much or it will eventually be reduced once the patch goes live.
Malefic grasp damage reduced and redistributed into Haunt/DoTs. Will Drain soul follow with the same redistribution and will GoSac be balanced to compensate for the damage loss to MG?
Haunt's damage compensation won't be enough to make up for the loss in Haunt+MG uptime.
Haunt not castable while moving just means you can't move for the next 9.5 seconds or your damage tanks.
The 10/60 change for KJC/MF is a change to balance cooldowns with raid mechanics. Its still terrible.
MF now affects fewer spells (doesnt include HoG, Chaos Wave, Carrion Swarm, Void Ray, FnB) and there is no way the 100% damage increase makes it to live (RoF and Hellfire/IAura DPET makes them part of the single target rotation).
Nothing yet on ember compensation for the RoF nerf.
Nothing yet on UVLS being inevitably nerfed.
Nothing yet on shifting soul shard use from soulburn soul swap to something else
Nothing yet on a fix for Agony soul swap snapshot.
Nothing on nerf to Soul Leech capping at 30% hp on the PTR (bug perhaps?)
I'm still not using Archimonde's Vengeance, which goes against blizzard philosophy of taking damage to do damage...

I personally have no confidence in my class at the moment. I've played my lock since vanilla, from the glory days of SL/SL to the dark days of "Global the warlock". KJC was one of the greatest quality of life changes blizzard made to this class since they removed soul shard farming (hopefully they don't read this and get an idea), and casted movement will be missed. Just a reminder though:

Already rerolled. I find mages to be more immune to nerfs and once again are able to top damage meters much easier. And they are more fun after these changes to Warlocks. Kinda depressing that they saw the revamp had no success. Maybe if they didn't gut the class in the first place.....

So you have already rerolled based on a bunch of unfinished, unannounced, proposed, potential, possible ptr changes - before the ptr cycle has even really properly begun - which may/may not be intentional/unintentional/bugs/experiments/finished/balanced/complete?

I see, I see.

2: Characteristic of melodrama, esp. in being exaggerated, sensationalized, or overemotional.

The remaining Warlocks who still play and post after these 'knee-jerk rerollers' are done, who aren't as flippant, I feel will be better able to have an adult discussion afterwards as a result.

really pissed off at the rain of fire change, i loved using that from day 1, never looked at guides since i can play my lock just fine, but i used rain of fire due to it adding more substance to the spec, yet idiots who felt they had to use it wanted it gone, really, people complain at added complexity and want it removed, if you couldnt use it, dont use it...

Already rerolled. I find mages to be more immune to nerfs and once again are able to top damage meters much easier. And they are more fun after these changes to Warlocks. Kinda depressing that they saw the revamp had no success. Maybe if they didn't gut the class in the first place.....