There is definately a small concentration of L21 in SW Spain. I am suspicious it relates to the important southernmost node there in the Atlantic Bronze Age trade networks although I suspect it moved north to south rather than the other way and the DF13 positive aspect makes me think this even more.

This particular cluster has four in Portugal. They all have ancestry in the Azores.

There are two Spaniards who can identify an ancestral home in Spain: one from Andalucia, and one from Galicia.

The other cluster member with a Spanish surname cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico.

I know of at least four R-L21 in the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula: one from Valenca do Minho in Portugal, and three from Galicia.

I have in my notes there is one from Portugal tested by 23andMe but I have no STRs for him. Do we have a Ysearch Id or anything as far as STR data?

Are you asking about the one from Valenco do Minho?

I don't have anything on him other than the basic info that he has tested L21+. I tried to recruit him for the project, but never could talk him into it. I came in contact with him when I was posting at Eupedia's y-dna forum, where his screen name is or was "Cambria Red", as I recall.

Well the one thing that appears clear is that L21 is high in Iberia in the border area with France in the Pyrenees. This to me is not the distribution you would expect if L21 was connected to beaker Atlantic links or Atlantic Bronze Age ones 1000 years later when it is western Iberia that seems stronger in these links.

This ties in with the idea too that Iberia may have been the origin of beaker pottery (although there are still people who disagree) but it was much of the receiver than donor in the developed beaker phase.

It also seems possible to me that L21 drifted into Iberia from France with the Pyrennees possibly much later becoming a reguge area for some L21 lineages during the effects of huge events like the conquest of Gaul etc.

I think L21 is a very peripheral issue in the arrival of R1b in Iberia. The real question is DF27 and when it arrived and came to be so very dominant in Iberia. I dont think the geography of DF27 outside Iberia is clear in my head so its hard to speculate other that it must have come from wherever P312 arose and I would favour somewhere like SE France or maybe further east for that.

I think the same can be said of DF27, but at a much higher rate.. I beat this drum often but I do believe SRY2627 had origins outside of Iberia.. Variance runs, however much credit they are given, show France with a clear lead for this subclade. Keeping in mind that SRY2627 is a fairly good ways down the DF27 tree. This to me speaks for an origin point of the younger clades being in France.. L21, L176.2 and family, and perhaps some of the younger clades of U152.. I'm not too familiar with U152, other than its Alpine association. I'd say France was and is pretty much P312 saturated.. with L21 mostly in the Northwest, DF27 and subclades mostly in the Central and Southwest regions and U152 dominating the more easterly regions.

I'd say DF27's dominance in Iberia is of a recent occurance and is merely spill over from France, not the opposite. One thing I don't here many people consider, is that the old diverse strains of DF27 wandering or fleeing into Iberia may give a false impression of older age in the region. The clade is just too widespread, appearing as far north as Scandinavia and as far east as the Ukraine. Anywhere besides a central locale such as France doesn't make sense to me. DF27 really needs to be studied in much more depth, as I feel much of what is said of it, is based on recent subclades and overflow of subclades into Iberia. It strikes me as something of a difficult problem that is largely ignored and shuffled away.. An ostrich sticking its head in the sand, sort of thing.

I'd place the origins for P312 itself at a more eastern distance than South east France..not a great distance, but still a bit further, more in the region of Northern Italy, Southeast Germany. In all actuality, I'd say South East France is where the younger clades that I mentioned above would have sprang forth.. Though this does come into conflict with P312's diversity being the highest in the region, if I'm not mistaken..

What are the age estimates for DF27 vs U152? They can't be a great deal different.

... I'd say DF27's dominance in Iberia is of a recent occurance and is merely spill over from France, not the opposite...What are the age estimates for DF27 vs U152? They can't be a great deal different.

I kind of follow you here but I think to say it is "merely spill over" is a tad overstated. There was some major expansion in Iberia for DF27 that was similar in scope to L21's expansion in the (British) Isles. There maybe DF27 lineages, and I suspect there are, that never set foot on Iberia but the DF27 in Iberia were a major force, no doubt.

STR diversity remains higher for U152 than for DF27, but we still need a lot more P312* types to test for DF27. I don't even call a P312+ U15- L21- DF27? person P312* anymore. They need to test for DF27.

... I'd say DF27's dominance in Iberia is of a recent occurance and is merely spill over from France, not the opposite...What are the age estimates for DF27 vs U152? They can't be a great deal different.

I kind of follow you here but I think to say it is "merely spill over" is a tad overstated. There was some major expansion in Iberia for DF27 that was similar in scope to L21's expansion in the (British) Isles. There maybe DF27 lineages, and I suspect there are, that never set foot on Iberia but the DF27 in Iberia were a major force, no doubt.

STR diversity remains higher for U152 than for DF27, but we still need a lot more P312* types to test for DF27. I don't even call a P312+ U152+ L21+ DF27? person P312* anymore. They need to test for DF27.

Agreed, I was just typing it as it came to me and I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. It was just my general annoyance at the lack of interest in DF27 showing through :)

I also agree that DF27 had great success in Iberia.. I wasn't denying that at all. Though I do think it spilled over from France along with some L21 at a later date (When I say later, I'm not referring to modern events). Going back to my and seemingly everyone elses belief that DF27 was quite prominent in Southern France, though I would also include Central France as well. I think of the DF27 in Iberia, that the majority of it is Z196.. DF27 originates more to the east, Z196 in Southeastern France and basically staying in that general region of France, with a few outliers going here and there, until some more recent historical events pushed it further south into Iberia (Conquest of Gaul as Alan pointed out). These people must have been N/S, SRY2627, M153.. L165 is conspicuously absent though, save the one guy who is either out of London or Spain.

I think DF27 is going to paint a very different picture once the P312* people start to dwindle down. I think DF27 is going to be shown as having the greatest impact on Europe as a whole, seeing as how most P312* is going to be positive for it. It got a late start, but at least its now starting to show, albeit slowy, that it is a major force and one of the big three.

Agreed, I was just typing it as it came to me and I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. It was just my general annoyance at the lack of interest in DF27 showing through :)

I also agree that DF27 had great success in Iberia.. I wasn't denying that at all. Though I do think it spilled over from France along with some L21 at a later date (When I say later, I'm not referring to modern events). Going back to my and seemingly everyone elses belief that DF27 was quite prominent in Southern France, though I would also include Central France as well. I think of the DF27 in Iberia, that the majority of it is Z196.. DF27 originates more to the east, Z196 in Southeastern France and basically staying in that general region of France, with a few outliers going here and there, until some more recent historical events pushed it further south into Iberia (Conquest of Gaul as Alan pointed out). These people must have been N/S, SRY2627, M153.. L165 is conspicuously absent though, save the one guy who is either out of London or Spain.

I think DF27 is going to paint a very different picture once the P312* people start to dwindle down. I think DF27 is going to be shown as having the greatest impact on Europe as a whole, seeing as how most P312* is going to be positive for it. It got a late start, but at least its now starting to show, albeit slowy, that it is a major force and one of the big three.

Agreed, I was just typing it as it came to me and I didn't really think about it until you pointed it out. It was just my general annoyance at the lack of interest in DF27 showing through :)

I also agree that DF27 had great success in Iberia.. I wasn't denying that at all. Though I do think it spilled over from France along with some L21 at a later date (When I say later, I'm not referring to modern events). Going back to my and seemingly everyone elses belief that DF27 was quite prominent in Southern France, though I would also include Central France as well. I think of the DF27 in Iberia, that the majority of it is Z196.. DF27 originates more to the east, Z196 in Southeastern France and basically staying in that general region of France, with a few outliers going here and there, until some more recent historical events pushed it further south into Iberia (Conquest of Gaul as Alan pointed out). These people must have been N/S, SRY2627, M153.. L165 is conspicuously absent though, save the one guy who is either out of London or Spain.

I think DF27 is going to paint a very different picture once the P312* people start to dwindle down. I think DF27 is going to be shown as having the greatest impact on Europe as a whole, seeing as how most P312* is going to be positive for it. It got a late start, but at least its now starting to show, albeit slowy, that it is a major force and one of the big three.

Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.

This is where we were 2 1/2 years ago. Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details. There are some strange haplotypes from Spain. I think it makes a difference from where, too. If the diversity is in the Pyrenees versus the rest of Spain that would be important but I doubt if we have enough data to figure that out.

Below is a list of the 55 people that are L21+ or appear to fit in clusters that are L21+. There undoubtedly are others in Iberian projects that aren't tested for L21 but have "unassignable" STR signatures.

Of the 55, 49 are either confirmed by testing from FTDNA or the Administrator has evaluated them as such.

Of the Big Six SNPs downstream of DF13, only Z253 has been confirmed in Spain so far. However, there hasn't been that much deep SNP testing in this group. Also, only 30 are at 67 markers. The 20 I referenced earlier were 20 L21+ tested from Spain which is a subset of this 30.

There is at least one known DF13* person who is minus for all of the Bix Six SNPs. There is also a DF63+ person, which is noteworthy because DF63 is DF13- so that is a very early branch within L21.

Some of the people listed may not have genealogical records connecting to Iberia.

I've always been surprised at the numbers showing up as you go south along the coast of Portugal and all the way to Andulucia. I don't really see people from Madrid and the center of Spain. Maybe this is a sea oriented expansion/migration thing with the Basques in addition.

Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.

This is where we were 2 1/2 years ago. Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details. There are some strange haplotypes from Spain. I think it makes a difference from where, too. If the diversity is in the Pyrenees versus the rest of Spain that would be important but I doubt if we have enough data to figure that out.

Thanks, for bringing this to our attention Mark.

I am that first L-21+ tested in Iberia. I haven´t done any further test waiting for a definitory snp, I am considering doing DF13/DF63...I wonder if is worth

Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.

This is where we were 2 1/2 years ago. Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details. There are some strange haplotypes from Spain. I think it makes a difference from where, too. If the diversity is in the Pyrenees versus the rest of Spain that would be important but I doubt if we have enough data to figure that out.

Thanks, for bringing this to our attention Mark.

I am that first L-21+ tested in Iberia. I haven´t done any further test waiting for a definitory snp, I am considering doing DF13/DF63...I wonder if is worth

I've always been surprised at the numbers showing up as you go south along the coast of Portugal and all the way to Andulucia. I don't really see people from Madrid and the center of Spain. Maybe this is a sea oriented expansion/migration thing with the Basques in addition.

.... Our data set is building. Mark J has done some analysis to show that Spain has high variance for L21. I just did a run of L21 using the 36 "linear" marker STRs out of 67 STR haplotypes. I found higher variance there too, versus France and the British Isles.

This was based on 20 haplotypes so thats a little tenuous, maybe a lot, but I'll go back we can all look at the details.....

When I expanded the data set to include Portugal and the nonconfirmed results I get up to 30 haplotypes. That did change the relative positioning. France edged back ahead as most diverse.

Iberian L21 is still largely unique and is still quite diverse even though it isn't frequent. However, at this number of haplotypes it's tenuous to make conclusions. Moving from 20 to 30 (which is 50% increase) changed things.

Let me re-iterate though that the difference between France, the British Isles and Iberia is very little as of the current data available. We are talking only a couple of percentage points either way. This is why I would not give up on either side of the English Channel as being the birthplace of L21.

We'll want to continue the search for DF13- and DF13+ subclades (downstream of L21.) If we found DF49* without DF23* nor M222 in Iberia I think that would be quite significant. We see a lot of DF23* in Wales and of course M222 is as Irish as Irish/Scots gets.

I've always been surprised at the numbers showing up as you go south along the coast of Portugal and all the way to Andulucia. I don't really see people from Madrid and the center of Spain. Maybe this is a sea oriented expansion/migration thing with the Basques in addition.

I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21. The other P312 stuff in the Isles is mostly DF27+ and U152+, and those seem to be concentrated in the south and east, indicating later arrivals.

Of course, what DF13- DF63- there is has been found so far mostly in eastern England, but that is not surprising, given the relative number of test subjects with ancestry in the Isles versus those with ancestry from the Continent.

It seems to me the elevated L21 variance in the Isles is most likely due to its having been the receiver of immigrants from a variety of sources. No doubt the variance of L21 in North America rivals that of many locales in Europe for the same reason.

Continental Europe has the diverse variety of P312 that makes it the likely birthplace of L21 and, IMHO, of DF13, as well.

I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21. The other P312 stuff in the Isles is mostly DF27+ and U152+, and those seem to be concentrated in the south and east, indicating later arrivals.

Of course, what DF13- DF63- there is has been found so far mostly in eastern England, but that is not surprising, given the relative number of test subjects with ancestry in the Isles versus those with ancestry from the Continent.

It seems to me the elevated L21 variance in the Isles is most likely due to its having been the receiver of immigrants from a variety of sources. No doubt the variance of L21 in North America rivals that of many locales in Europe for the same reason.

Continental Europe has the diverse variety of P312 that makes it the likely birthplace of L21 and, IMHO, of DF13, as well.

I recognize there is testing bias in that our pioneers, the consumer/hobbyist testers, are leading the way. ... and these hobbyists are most likely Americans with British Isles ancestors or are Isles people currently.

... I'm not making this up, but its people with English MDKAs. I'm a bit surprised there are not Irish or Scots because they do more testing. I would, as you probably would, expect a Frenchman or two or maybe a German. This might because of lower testing penetration, but still the English have the true P312* people.

I wish the Iberians and French would test as deeply as the Isles folks.

This doesn't mean I think L21 was born in England, but I don't think it can be entirely discounted. Hey, there are probably those who think U106 may have reached Denmark and the Baltic with Bell Beakers, probably as a pre-U106 L11* lineage. There is a bit of L11* in Scandinavia. If the Bell Beakers were primarily L11*, which is possible, L21 may have been born anywhere along the French or English coasts.

If instead, the overland Stelae people were critical to Y lineage populations of NW Europe, then L21 was more likely from closer to the Rhine. I lean towards this thinking but I don't know.

Celts from Gaul seem to have settled in Iberia in the last few centuries before the Roman conquest of the peninsula. Certainly late enough for Strabo to be able to tell us that people of the same incursion had settled in Galicia and around the Guadiana, now part of the Portuguese–Spanish border in the south. We might therefore expect L21 to mirror the distribution of U152 in Iberia to some extent. In the Post-Roman period some Britons fled to Galicia, which I dare say would boost the L21 there. In the same period some Basques were moving across the border from Gaul and settling what is now the Spanish Basque Country. Looks like they carried some L21 with them.

Later still British and Irish troops were billeted all over Spain and Portugal in the Peninsula Wars.

So subclades are likely to be important in sifting one source of L21 from another in Iberia.

I still think you have to look at where those P312* in Britain come from and at the Busby results. There isn't that much P312* in Britain, most of it is in the east per Busby, and Busby didn't test for DF27, which would have eliminated the biggest part of what Busby did find.

If you are looking for the birthplace of L21, you have to look at the place with the biggest and most diverse (in terms of SNPs, not necessarily haplotypes) population of non-L21 cousins. That's not Britain or Ireland.

The evidence seems to indicate that L21 arrived in the Isles as already L21 and probably mostly as already DF13, and not as potential-L21, that is, in the body of an ancestor who would later give rise to L21 or one of whose descendants would.

There is a strong temptation or tendency to see L21 as originating in the Isles because that's where most of it is now. Another problem is the absolutely tremendous skewing of the database to the Isles because most of the y-dna testing is North American. Of course, we would ferret out the English P312* because that's who is doing the bulk of the testing.

I don't think it's likely that L21 was born in the Isles. That would mean its immediate antecedent went there as P312*, and we just don't see that much P312* in the Isles that could have developed clades parallel to L21. The other P312 stuff in the Isles is mostly DF27+ and U152+, and those seem to be concentrated in the south and east, indicating later arrivals.

Of course, what DF13- DF63- there is has been found so far mostly in eastern England, but that is not surprising, given the relative number of test subjects with ancestry in the Isles versus those with ancestry from the Continent.

It seems to me the elevated L21 variance in the Isles is most likely due to its having been the receiver of immigrants from a variety of sources. No doubt the variance of L21 in North America rivals that of many locales in Europe for the same reason.

Continental Europe has the diverse variety of P312 that makes it the likely birthplace of L21 and, IMHO, of DF13, as well.

I recognize there is testing bias in that our pioneers, the consumer/hobbyist testers, are leading the way. ... and these hobbyists are most likely Americans with British Isles ancestors or are Isles people currently.

... I'm not making this up, but its people with English MDKAs. I'm a bit surprised there are not Irish or Scots because they do more testing. I would, as you probably would, expect a Frenchman or two or maybe a German. This might because of lower testing penetration, but still the English have the true P312* people.

You can add my name to the above, Mike. I haven't taken the L238 test as a close Armstrong match has, & was L238-.I tried to make a case for the above being from typically Brythonic Celt areas of England (west of the Pennines), Wales & southern Scotland. Many of the above fit that template, although I appreciate I was judging their origins on their earliest-known ancestors, so possibly not terribly accurate.I can say that the Armstrong surname was in the traditional Rheged/Kingdom of Strathclyde regions in the early 1200s, but appreciate they may have come from elsewhere. In nearly 40 years research I've looked at all the likely origins for my surnmame's progenitor, & the likeliest would appear to be Brythonic Celt. I would assume that Brythonic Celt would be the majority for most of those west of the Pennines, Wales & southern Scotland.As you say, more Y-DNA required!Bob

It is well to keep in mind that our English P312* folks are only temporarily P312* pending the discovery of one or more new SNPs. For their presence to support an Isles origin for L21, one would have to demonstrate some sort of connection between them and L21, like a shared marker between P312 and L21.

The Continent is the real matrix of P312 and its offspring and so is the likeliest place to look for the birthplace of L21.

For France and Iberia to surpass the Isles in variance, even just a little, given the overwhelming number of British Isles L21 haplotypes available relative to those from the Continent, is pretty amazing. The Isles, as isles at the northwestern extremity of Europe, have been on the receiving end of population movement from Europe to a much greater extent than they have provided the reverse. L21 haplotype variance in the Isles is likely relatively high because of that fact: they have received L21 from a number of sources and not just one.

That's why haplotype variance is tricky and cannot be relied on to indicate origin in and of itself. It has to be viewed in the context of other types of evidence, like that from archaeology, anthropology, history, and linguistics.