[SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?

From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>

To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:50:56 -0700

The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and
records of any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA.
The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the
breadth of models that their tools support which might have enough
market value to justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort
to create automated or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be
well within the capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized
cost quite low. I think for any scheme to stand a chance of market
acceptance, it cannot impose any substantial additional cost in dollars
and/or time on silicon vendors.
Best Regards,
Steve.
Lynne D. Green wrote:
>
> Steve and Colin,
>
> The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee (who are
> representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report models that pass
> the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone could encourage vendors
> to post their parser output file, with comments about why particular
> warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job.
>
> Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And only
> reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) point about IP
> protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of our "neutral" review
> service to get on this list.)
>
> Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: articles
> and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS parser, specs,
> cookbook, etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Lynne
>
> Lynne Green
> Chair
> IBIS Model Review Committee
>
>
> steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like structure
> ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure to unchecked,
> and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. We do not live in
> suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in tight competition might
> nottry and get an edge in new product adoption by spreading FUD over their
> competitor's offerings. In a world where NDA's are required just to obtain
> data sheets I find it nearly impossible to believe vendors would expose
> themselves in such a public and difficult to control way. I think that if
> anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of:
> a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor
> participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party such
> as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best regards, Steve
> colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and updates are an
> issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a directory of links and/or
> "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models themselves. Users will
> add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal
> IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA blog
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] -----Original Message----- From:
> si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[3] [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[4]] On
> Behalf Of Powell, Jon N Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve
> weir; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[5] Cc: bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[6]; ibis@xxxxxxx[7];
> ibis-users@xxxxxxx[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
> comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
> wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the
> copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said when a
> copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將
> -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[9]
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
> Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[11] Cc:
> bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[12]; ibis@xxxxxxx[13]; ibis-users@xxxxxxx[14] Subject:
> [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so cheap as
> to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not particularly
> difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this
> needs people willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers
> so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve.
> colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the feedback
> and encouragement :-) There are several options each with pros and cons *
> Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis e.g. hosted and
> self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * Discussion forums (bulletin
> boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * Email
> reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org[18] * Shared document/table
> like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the
> above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next
> generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with
> each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email
> reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate
> threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * WYSIWYG versus markup
> languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. *
> "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom"
> (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative):
> **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on
> the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors
> behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** Discussion Forums let
> everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the
> threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated)
> conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for
> their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info to do I
> have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent
> harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * History/reversion: How do
> we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays?
> There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an
> adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check?
> * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema
> (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly
> interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a
> consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for
> the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of:
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
> -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, --
> Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
> -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[22]
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent:
> Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[24] Subject:
> [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you are on
> to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time farting around
> trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted.
> I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the
> readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". Some
> "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be
> crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet
> the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. Good
> luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your
> link and voted. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
> tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@xxxxxxxxxx[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- High-Speed
> Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[27]
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
> Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[29] Cc:
> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
> comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
> wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how
> well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory
> would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness.
> There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that
> aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some of
> them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would
> really like to see something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list
> IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target Model Part Number Free or pay
> modelModel basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based
> model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or
> not Link to model, or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[31]
> wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to
> an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in
> this informal straw poll:
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
> -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this
> thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was
> disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it here in
> the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on the IBIS
> lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal
> Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA -----Original Message-----
> From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To:
> IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[33]' Subject: Straw poll and
> call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as
> wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there
> an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at:
> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34]
> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is
> out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced Google
> search like:
> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c[36]
> om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, obviously)
> ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling or
> burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. Sooo...How
> about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from
> wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing
> for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or
> contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through
> an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for
> contributions.' (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] )
> Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS
> page on wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica[38]
> tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves.
> It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information[39]
> _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this informal
> straw poll:
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di[40]
> rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. Best
> regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof
> EDA
>
>
> --- Links ---
> 1 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
> 2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com
> 3 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 4 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 5 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 6 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 7 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
> 8 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
> 9 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 10 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 11 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 12 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 13 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
> 14 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
> 15 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
> 16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/
> 17 http://www.forummatrix.org/
> 18 http://freelists.org
> 19 http://docs.google.com/
> 20 http://wave.google.com
> 21
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/
> 22 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 23 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 24 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 25 mailto:howie03@xxxxxxxxxx
> 26 http://www.sigcon.com
> 27 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 28 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 29 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
> 30 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 31 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
> 32
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
> 33 mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html
> 35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm
> 36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
> 37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing
> 38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
> 39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
> 40 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di
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--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
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