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Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

its a sad day when people argue over the death of this clown! No matter what your political stance is we should all agree that the guy guy was a nutcase. Anti western yet he had one of the largest movie collections in the world and spent more than $800,000 a year on cognac while his people starved. The guy was a guilty of many crimes against hummanity and his death is a good thing.

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Originally Posted by Higgins86

its a sad day when people argue over the death of this clown! No matter what your political stance is we should all agree that the guy guy was a nutcase. Anti western yet he had one of the largest movie collections in the world and spent more than $800,000 a year on cognac while his people starved. The guy was a guilty of many crimes against hummanity and his death is a good thing.

Few people are really arguing over him personally. Of course the guy was a clown. You look at every picture of him and everyone else is looking crisp in military gear or a nice suit and he looks like he stumbled out of bed after going to an Elvis impersonator convention. The guy deserves worse than he got.

The thing is its trickier to tell if his death is really a good thing. For all we know he could have been the only thing from stopping a power struggle that could lead to war. That is pure speculation on my part, but it illustrates how things are more complicated than "bad guy dies, world gets better."

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Saw Robin Meade of HLN announce this story at about 6:30 today. They were showing footage of people crying in NK over it, including their state-run media outlets.

She appeared either moved by the crying or very confused, and I'm hoping for the later, because if any news person buys into the crying as genuine sadness, then they are on crack.

The last sentence is plain out wrong. North Korean propaganda is very powerful, and many of those people do actually love their leader.

"The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Originally Posted by E-M

Anyone have any good information about how exactly things were structured under him? Anyone who might be in a position to make a power play while the son isn't established?

First thing people have to realize is that this place isn't anything like any other so called communist states (but i don't want to argue over ideology). They have completely renounced even their lip service to communism in favor of the religion-in-disguise Juche. The old soviet states were run by atheist bureaucratic hacks, this place could be run by military religious/nationalist fanatics. Those two types of systems will not disintegrate in the same way as those who ran them have entirely different interests.

It will be interesting to see if this 20th century monarchy will live on. They have no sort of long standing tradition to justify a hereditary line, but they have the state power and propaganda tactics that the old monarchs could only have dreamed of. The question be which has sunk in more, the fear of repression by the state or actual cult leader/juche fanaticism. Christopher Hitchens once said that he entered NK promising himself that he wouldn't compare it to 1984. He found that to be more impossible the more he saw the people themselves. Scary stuff.

North Korea is indeed a communist state. However, I agree with you that it is very unique. It's a mixture of monarchy, militarism, and some other philosophies. Decades of isolation and rule can do that to people

"The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Originally Posted by E-M

You can go screw yourself.

North Korea has openly renounced communism, and if you look at their real policies there was nothing communist about them from the start. But i'm sure the night and day ideological differences between someone like Karl Marx and Kim Jong Il don't much matter to you, because your a hack. You would rather group them together instead of doing that scary thing called research. Your narrow worldview can't handle looking at things beyond their shallow popular labels.

But your probably one of those joker libertarians who talk about Ron Paul like he is completely different than George Bush but think looking at the difference between even someone like Lenin and Kim Jong Il is splitting ideological hairs. Good luck trying to fairly analyze the world while constantly shaping it to fit your ideology.

Communism is the economic system. If you see their economic system, their centralized planning, direct manipulation of prices and currency, you'll see that they are communist.
Their political system, however, is nothing like the old Soviet Union or other previous communist dictatorships

"The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Originally Posted by solletica

Alright. Time to face facts. NK's leadership is not the way it is because it likes to be mean and closed and starve its people

It's just that other govts don't want to help it; they instead want to just exploit its desperate position to their advantage, and the US govt is notorious for doing that. The aid packages offered by nations (including the US) always come w/exploitative conditions. So for NK to surrender its nukes means surrendering its sovereignty and of course, it doesn't want that.

What NK should do is follow the China model of reforms--making a slow gradual transition to a more efficient market economy. It should try to establish closer relations w/China, if possible.

It also wouldn't hurt NK to allow the UN to inspect its nukes, assuming it has any that are functional. Once a nuclear deterrent is present and working, there's no reason for secrecy.

NK can reform itself w/the right leadership. We can only hope that the son rises to the challenge and makes it happen.

Making up excuses for a dictatorship, eh? Not that I expected much.
China already rules North Korea.
North Korea already made its decision to be isolated. Didn't you even heard of the Yeongpyong attacks, the Korean Air bombing, the Yangon bombing, or all those other hostile acts?
Next, you'll probably say that the US engineered all of them.

"The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Originally Posted by Proud South Korean

Making up excuses for a dictatorship, eh? Not that I expected much.
China already rules North Korea.
North Korea already made its decision to be isolated. Didn't you even heard of the Yeongpyong attacks, the Korean Air bombing, the Yangon bombing, or all those other hostile acts?
Next, you'll probably say that the US engineered all of them.

The Great Leader stopped the Zerg swarm! :3

But yeah, the propaganda force is strong in NK. They probably don't blame their dear leader for the famine and all the turmoil, but themselves for not working hard enough.

Hey, does China still send back North Koreans who try to escape from NK? You get to meet any defectors?

Re: Kim Jong Il Dies

Indeed, Kim Jong Il helped his country defend itself and maintain its sovereignty.

I give up. It's obvious you're just another commie brainwashed into believing NK propaganda.
I have no words left for you

"The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all" - Joan Robinson
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill