I only had the single played in Borderlands, as my internet was down for my 360 at the time, and I had a pretty damn good time. Just saying. I was the Siren, if that matters. I don't unusually like grinding, but the respec kept things fresh as I tried new build and ideas out. Then I hit the level cap and got bored.

Phasewalk's speed boost kept walking from being boring, too. So, the walking was actually kinda fun rushing around at super-speed.

Yahtzee Croshaw:"I don't just want to play alone; I want to play alone with other people around."

That's a very good point. I got the same satisfaction from Demon's Souls because I was playing it alone but could still interact with some people around without entering into annoying chats or friend-lists. If ever I'll play a MMO, I'll probably go for the goth way.

Better make sure that if you choose to write a single word in bold in your article that it's spelled right.

blackshark121:But here comes the shameful secret part: I haven't actually player Team Fortress 2 since they brought out the first class-specific update, just under two years ago.

Yahtzee made a typo, bring on the end of the world.

And here I thought it was just some form of obscure aussie/brit slang I was missing.

On a more topical note, I've always found it funny that when given the chance to play in a game world with other players who can provide more fleshed out rolls than any automated NPC, it always degrades to number crunching and misanthropy.

thats an pretty accurate description of the feeling i had when playing borderlands, its always enjoyable reading your articles and i must say even if you dont like video games theres still a reason to follow the TF2 blog, its well written and funny.

and true TF2 does become unplayable on the public servers until about 2 months after each class update.

Good points there about the MMORPG thing. I always disliked the concept of guilds, clans and ect... in those things. So far the only one I tried was Runescape, and the players were nothing more than background for me, but I needed them. Joining an empty server left me with the feeling of severe loneliness.

I both agree and disagree - I've kept myself out of playing FPS MMOGs because of the fact that people really do develop and it can be very hard to become competitive when you can only survive for 15 seconds before being fragged.

On the other hand, I got in Battle Field 1942 very late on it's life and I massively regretted it when it died to be replaced by BF2 or 2142 which were essentially massive updates to the same thing.

On the other hand there are several MMOGs that can be picked up and got in to despite the fact they've been out so long, I guess because they embrace starting zones and you start at a reasonably level playing field that you can get in to over time.

As for playing alone with other people around, it sounds very much like the motto of the wow-multiboxer, which for a while I was one of.

So Borderlands is mediocre because it doesn't give you the opportunity to show off what a non-conformist loner you are? Sounding more like a precious brat than a game reviewer here, regardless of how many people agree with you.

Onyx Oblivion:I only had the single played in Borderlands, as my internet was down for my 360 at the time, and I had a pretty damn good time. Just saying. I was the Siren, if that matters. I don't unusually like grinding, but the respec kept things fresh as I tried new build and ideas out. Then I hit the level cap and got bored.

Phasewalk's speed boost kept walking from being boring, too. So, the walking was actually kinda fun rushing around at super-speed.

I liked the single player too, though I was the Hunter. I loved the Sniping, it was one game where you can snipe fairly safely without worrying too much about getting rushed, though boss fights were kind of silly as a sniper, it just doesn't feel right. I didn't play it long enough to reach the level cap because I had to get back to uni. Maybe that's it.

Anyway, I don't post on ZP forums because it's either variations on "nice review, can't wait for the next", blatant fanboys and trolls. So maybe it's just a higher class of people who enjoy borderlands single player. [/snootyness]

Borderlands just a grew a tad stale for me during single player... became a bit too repetitive.... And even during Multiplayer, NO ONE TALKED, I mean seriously, I know there's a drought of PS3 players sporting headsets, but I've found more talkative louts in Fat bloody Princess! Went through a hundred different teams in Borderlands and never found a single speaking soul... I begin to wonder if the game actually supported voice chat... and if it doesn't, I've just gone and made a massive fucktard of myself....

On another not, wasn't there an article several moons ago concerning the epidemic of loners in MMOs, I agreed with the sentiments expressed then, and I still agree with them now. Cohabiting a world with other living humans is grand, even when you spend most of the time ignoring them. Hell, sometimes it's a source of amusement, it's karmic though. I remember a while ago in the days of yore, when a few mates of mine got into Maplestory, and all the eyebleeding grind that involved, of course it didn't really matter, because we had the most epic conversations in history, at one point gathering together in massively overcrowded grind spot and holding and equal parts raunchy and hilarious series of conversations with random players. We got party invites, and just spent the next four hours chatting while other souls did the leveling for us. And it was a perfectly equivalent exchange.

Very good point about MMOGs feeling "alive." You see all these sandbox games that really try their hardest at creating a living, breathing world, but it almost never works. MMOGs feel populated because... well, they are.

Onyx Oblivion:I only had the single played in Borderlands, as my internet was down for my 360 at the time, and I had a pretty damn good time. Just saying. I was the Siren, if that matters. I don't unusually like grinding, but the respec kept things fresh as I tried new build and ideas out. Then I hit the level cap and got bored.

Phasewalk's speed boost kept walking from being boring, too. So, the walking was actually kinda fun rushing around at super-speed.

I liked the single player too, though I was the Hunter. I loved the Sniping, it was one game where you can snipe fairly safely without worrying too much about getting rushed, though boss fights were kind of silly as a sniper, it just doesn't feel right. I didn't play it long enough to reach the level cap because I had to get back to uni. Maybe that's it.

Anyway, I don't post on ZP forums because it's either variations on "nice review, can't wait for the next", blatant fanboys and trolls. So maybe it's just a higher class of people who enjoy borderlands single player. [/snootyness]

After the fragile wittle Siren, I tried the Berserker, and MY GOD, I had a tough time with the game as him for some damn reason. I was using shotguns as my main weapon and kept getting slaughtered. THAT was unenjoyable. Barely touched the Hunter, I'll give it a go. And Soldier is just too damn generic for my tastes. Assault Rifles and turrets...WOW!

I was actually in a conversation with someone recently, they asked me what I wanted to see, design wise, in a next gen MMO, and along with the other thoughts I passed his way, I expressed the fact that my own preferences in an MMO is to solo 99.9 percent of the time, because while I enjoy playing in a world that feels alive and not static, I generally dislike people I don't know personally and don't group much. So ideally, I'd like to see an MMO cater to THAT player, which clearly, I'm not the only one.

Some thoughts on Borderlands. I actually borrowed a copy for the PS3 from a friend who insisted I try it out. Here's the rub, HE'S the only friend I have on the PS3, ( I spend more of my time on the 360/PC ) so I had no one I knew to team with. Yahtzee's better then me, I never even tried to group, I just played it through single player.

Despite the loneliness of a dead WoW server, it's not a bad game at all, and I liked alot of the design, but, and this earned me some flack from my friend, I specifically stopped playing right before I opened up the Vault. Yeah maybe I should have seen the story through, but something told me that whatever's in there just wasn't worth it.

So to summarize briefly, people who play MMOGs without socializing are a lot like goths in real life; angry loners who want to be angry loners where everyone can see.

Hey! I resemble that remark. (Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.)

But, yeah, Borderlands... I might just finish that game one of these eons. Honestly, I sort of fell into a funk where I was playing my character with my brother and became afraid of advancing my character past the point where my brother was or else I'd out level him and consequently never got back to playing the game.

I considered going online to play with strangers but I was pretty sure it would turn out as Yahtzee said in his video review: me perpetually chasing 3 specks who were just plowing through the content. I like to take it slow and savor my content, but good luck convicing every Internet monkey I run into on a random matchup of the superiority of my position. Hell, judging by my experiences on the average forum, I'd be lucky to convince them of the time of day - they'd somehow find a way to disagree with me endlessly until my priority to argue with them decreases below my priority to commit suicide. At that point I have to cut off the discussion due to health reasons.

Maybe we need a game that actively punishes people for being dimwits. And it needs to be the awesomest game ever so dimwits have no choice but to play it. We'll make finishing it be a requirement to get a driver's license. In the end, this game will crush the stupid out of humanity like an unusually entertaining Skinner's box.

I totally agree with you on TF2. I absolutely loved it when it first came out...the game had so much character and style. It was fun, carefree and pretty non-elitist. You could get really good at the classes if you wanted to, but it was still perfectly acceptable to run around on pure dumb luck and fun.I stopped playing after overdoing it for a few weeks, a few updates came out, and have since felt unable to rejoin due to all the changes. I realize that I could probably get back into the swing of it, but why? I liked it how it was, I'm happy to remember it that way, and have no particular interest in getting slaughtered by the obsessive TF2 cultists.

As for WoW, I play off and on primarily due to the friends I've made in the game and love the social aspects, but I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've met a few folks like that, and make characters on random servers once in a while to enjoy that feeling of being the gothic mercenary. It is rather fascinating that an MMO can be so enjoyable on one's own.

The Lizard of Odd:I totally agree with you on TF2. I absolutely loved it when it first came out...the game had so much character and style. It was fun, carefree and pretty non-elitist. You could get really good at the classes if you wanted to, but it was still perfectly acceptable to run around on pure dumb luck and fun.I stopped playing after overdoing it for a few weeks, a few updates came out, and have since felt unable to rejoin due to all the changes. I realize that I could probably get back into the swing of it, but why? I liked it how it was, I'm happy to remember it that way, and have no particular interest in getting slaughtered by the obsessive TF2 cultists.

As for WoW, I play off and on primarily due to the friends I've made in the game and love the social aspects, but I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've met a few folks like that, and make characters on random servers once in a while to enjoy that feeling of being the gothic mercenary. It is rather fascinating that an MMO can be so enjoyable on one's own.

Cool article.

I dunno, I only got into TF2 about a year ago, and it doesn't seem like its filled with obsessive micromanagers as much as other games. I mean I've currently got like a .8/1 kill/death ratio, that's not bad for a guy who only pops on on weekends.

As for the MMOG thing, yeah, I'm currently playing Star Trek, and I just prefer the single player experience. Yeah, joining other people can be fun, but by and large, I'm treating it single player.

The only reason I bother with MMOs is because the genre associated with specific MMOs aren't usually mainstream genres.

I play City of Heroes and Star Trek Online because they generally do not have single-player games with roughly the same gameplay experience. The biggest reason I would play The Old Republic is because they're not making KoTOR 3. However I have no use for WoW with games like Dragon Age and the hundred other fantasy single player RPGs floating about.

One trend I've noticed is less of a need to group to actually play through the game. Sure you need people for raid-like content, but the average gameplay experience can usually be soloed, even with "support characters".

Here's the thing: I don't socialize while I team unless it's with a group I already know. Otherwise it's a "know your role" situation, you don't yak about strategy over chat and vent unless the current approach isn't working. Otherwise even a reasonably decent PUG can steamroll through most content.

If I want to socialize then I usually go to the social hubs in the game and just hang out, then the MMO becomes a very pretty chatroom.

I see his point, I couldn't bring myself to play morrowind because the world was dead and boring, outside the cities it was just a barren wasteland with little to see or do, and the cities themselves felt hollow. Same appiles to Oblivion, though I had much more fun with that since I felt encouraged to explore.I tried to get into Morrowind on 4 occasions before people pile on the hate, that game is incredibly popualar for some reason.

heh you really have a love-hate relationship w/ valve, on one hand they create excellent games; on the other they keep tinkering with an old one and keep holding off the conclusion to a series to infinity and beyond

Maybe it's because I'm a Diablo 2 fan, but I really like Borderlands, until I got to the final boss fight. At that point I just gave up on the game and now I can't bring myself to play it unless I'm playing with a friend.

geldonyetich:Maybe we need a game that actively punishes people for being dimwits. And it needs to be the awesomest game ever so dimwits have no choice but to play it. We'll make finishing it be a requirement to get a driver's license. In the end, this game will crush the stupid out of humanity like an unusually entertaining Skinner's box.

You're talking about Demon's Souls there.

Actually, Demon's Souls multiplayer is a lot like Yahtzee's "soloing in an MMO" as well... there are constant reminders that other people are around and playing the game, which is great even if you take it on mostly as a single-player enterprise.

About Borderlands: that thread was a sweaty man train of Yahtzee's me-toos, it was sad. Yeah I can see why someone who only played single-player or with a bunch of jerks online would say the game's no good. Someone who only plays with himself or a bunch of jerks would say the same about a deck of cards or having sex. Dead wrong on all counts, and I pity anyone whose life is empty enough that they can't arrange a good time in any of the above activities.

Interesting article, it seems you play MMOs in the exact opposite way to me. I play these games almost exclusively for the social aspect. I don't mean, of course, that I live out my social life on there, IM-ing my guild-buddies to talk about shoes, but rather than I enjoy the multi-player aspect far above anything else.

For this reason, possibly my favourite game of all time is EVE online. Yes, I mean game in general. As much as I love my single-player games, none of the compare to EVE presuming you play it with other people. As a single-player game it's fucking awful, and always will be by it's very nature.

I played solo for about three weeks and hated it, and was about to quit when, on a whim, I joined up with a corporation (which is somewhat of a misnomer with bad connotations, think of it as a guild or clan) and had a year of amazing fun. I had to quit in the end, because work murdered my playing-time, but everything I ever did that was fun in that game was entirely due to other players.

The only kinda-MMO I currently play is Global Agenda and although I haven't joined any guilds it just isn't a game where you can ignore other players because you run through discrete missions and they are either regular FPS competitive matches or Left 4 Dead style cooperative missions. There is no solo play, no bots to fill spots, only other humans. Making friends helps with making sure your team has a lower rate of doofuses though.

I am in favour of pretty much everything Yahtzee has said in this article! Except for the level of Borderlands-hate. I find the same problems with it, I just don't despise it to such a degree. The look of it sways me; I still want to play it on occasion because it looks pretty. Also, I'm not sure what the issue might be with the final boss. I don't think it had an excessive number of hit points, it was just that it was a really poor fight. Aside from the odd attack that forced me to step a few feet to one side, it worked out as an exercise in holding M1 with my right hand and drinking tea with my left. I guess if it had had fewer hit points I could have finished it quicker and cradled the tea in both hands, which would have been warm, but the number of hit points was far from the main fault there.

Also, TF2: Right on. I've been playing it since the pyro update so I'm familiar with all the changes, but I sure as hells wouldn't bother starting now. It used to have instantly-understandable visuals, now it has bright colours and spinning things everywhere. I tried to introduce a friend to it, but he kept standing too near to one spinning thing, or too far from a slightly different spinning thing, and dying because of it.

Also, some unlocks change the role of the class a little too drastically (well, the medic and demo). Time was, you could see two or more demomen on your team and be assured that there would be some kind of explosions happening. Now, the only way to know if there's a single explosion-making dude around is to find every friendly demo and look for the tiny shield. Or ask, but that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

As much as I love single player games, and likely play them more often then multiplayer games, I have to say that he is just plain wrong about a game absolutely needing to stand on its single player alone. Chess is a good game. Pen and Paper RPGs are, frequently, good games. Plenty of sports are good, from a design perspective at least. To say that modern day games, with all the technology we have, can't focus on a social experience does a disservice to the medium. If he happens to not like multiplayer without a single player component, hey, some people juggle Geese. But that's his personal perspective, and not a perspective that can be generalized to all that many other gamers, or really be taken as a useful perspective in encouraging better games. There is no reason why a developer should shrink away from an attempt to craft a game experience that involves social interaction as the primary focus. Why would someone so vocal about the need for innovation in games discount an entire realm of potential play experiences? Gaming has evolved for the better in many ways, and exploring a more social form of play is a great leap forward. And while Yahtzee is just stating his opinion and being funny, I have to say that it carry's with it all the, "I don't like it, therefore it sucks" stigma of an abrasive fanboy, hating on the opposing intellectual property of there choice. Multiplayer is a legitimate choice for game design, and brings most gamers hours of entertainment and exploration, and I don't think we would be better off if a game designer threw an incredibly brave and innovative idea for a game out the window because it did not lend itself to a single player experience.