Frog, I see no practical way of conducting a test without the participants being aware. Whether they consider ABX comparisons a 'test' or not doesn't change the outcome IMO as it influences either outcome the same. It's a tried and tested method and I'm not aware of any realistic alternatives.

My nemesis over on the Darkside has made some big assumptions about what, and how I think, and has somehow made "Listening, and making up one's own mind" sound like a ludicrous thing to do.....though I can see how encouraging this in certain circumstances, can have its advantages.

I'm intrigued that I'm seen as the one with the entrenched opinion, when it is others who lay down the law as to what is science, what is Foo and won't try for themselves, all while dogmatically telling others that disagree with them, that they are foolish and gullible......now I wonder where that approach comes from.

My history that lead to my position is as follows: I had read the arguments on both sides, and was in fact very sceptical. I decided to take a measured approach, and actually went about it in a fashion that was quite close to the method mentioned (despite the implication that I wouldn't). I took a bunch of cables at a variety of prices, waited till everyone was out and started messing about.

I had mains cables from Cardas, Audioquest, TCI, Clearer Audio and Atlas. I did a lot of swapping about, and what I found was that it made a worthwhile difference to my amps, and no difference to the Linn DS (some made it worse). I found this strange because I had always been told that it would have the biggest effect on the Source. I suspect that it was something to do with the fact that the Linn Dynamik power supply is doing a great job.

To confirm my findings, I went to my most sceptical friend, who was one of the few people I knew that was into hifi. He made all the same arguments that are played out ad infinitum, on most cable threads.

We played some music on the AVR600 with the standard lead, then changed to the Cardas one. The difference was so apparent, that he looked at me and accused me of making some underhand tweak. He wouldn't believe me until he personally changed the leads back and forth himself. He went away scratching his head as it flew in the face of everything he believed in (due to a science background). He now has made up his own cables, and can hear the benefit.

I know it's a cliché, but I also brought my daughter and Mrs. Cno into the fray, and they could tell when an after-market cable was put into the amp (without knowing), provided I didn't take too long to change it over.

I have also been to cable demos by TCI, Atlas, Vertere and TQ...and the result was the same.

I have never taken anybody's word for anything and always experiment. I have heard cables make no difference, and in some cases make things worse.....so this doesn't equate with the accusation that I'm simply hearing an improvement due to expectation bias.

Am I entrenched....possibly; though it's based on doing a lot of practical research...the results of which have been far from predictable. I feel it at least gives me the right to put my view across.

My position is this; imagine you are standing looking at an Aardvark, while typing so on a forum. Then people on the forum queue up to tell you that it's not possible, as they don't exist in your country. You reply that it is, as you are looking directly at it.

You ask if they have ever either been to your country, or even seen an Aardvark. To which they reply that they haven't (on both counts), but they don't need to, as they know it's not possible. The suggestion is that you need to get your eyes checked, and not to post any further comments, as it will mislead anyone who reads it (into believing such nonsense).

Now you don't need to tell me that the above example is a little OTT, but it makes the point from my perspective.

I know none of this amounts to proof, which is why I always state it as my opinion......and tell people to try for themselves.

The "Foo Fighters" make sure that they argue in such a dogmatic way, that they have an answer for every eventuality

- We are right, because Science says so

- We don't need to listen because there is no need, as science says it's impossible

- If you hear a difference, it is imaginary due to "expectation bias."

- Anyone recommending that you even try a cable is being irresponsible.

- Any proof you think you have isn't reliable

- Everything that a cable manufacturer is nonsense

- The people who say there is a benefit are brainwashing the reader, so anything they hear is unreliable.

Cno (absolute bastard) - over and out.

Oops, didn't mean to talk about cables again. :oops:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." Nelson Pass

I don't consider myself in a particular camp but I question everything where someone is trying to make me part with my hard earned money.

At the very least I want some sort of logical explanation of how and why something will work so that I can make an informed choice. Such explanations usually seem to be lacking when it comes to hi-fi.

Well, that's not the problem though is it? It's being told one thing, by "experts" who've been adept with Google. Sorry, typed stuff in to a search engine, who then quote it, or spout it as if they're the expert. Oh and then they lambast anyone who holds a different view. It's like being preached at by a reformed smoker about the evils of tobacco. Please. I'm a grown-up, I can work stuff out for myself thanks.

Cheers RS, but I suspect others won't think so......putting the kevlar vest on as we speak and running to the airport.

Rather naffed off with pseudo-experts barking away at others or ridiculing them, or just all the snidey, arrogant, self-congratulatory stuff that's out there. We know where it resides and we can avoid it. Folk can work stuff out for themselves without being "told" what's what.

EDIT: I just referred to the thread in question. Sole purpose to wind you up mate. It could've gone in their broom cupboard where they can really go to rip, but no, it goes on the public bit of the forum. Oh what a surprise.

I can easily speak to you, and you don't generally take my name in vain on other sites.

It's not hard to figure out, as a statement of mine has been used to start a thread elsewhere, with the sole purpose of causing mischief and stirring. But to be fair, it was my opinions that were ridiculed, rather than me...and this was made quite clear.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." Nelson Pass