Last month I flew from MSP-DTW-ICN, coming back ICN-NRT-MSP. I used to fly NW quite frequently to ICN (and GMP). Incidentally, the recently inaugurated 777LR from DTW to ICN was excellent. I should post a trip report on that. Service was decent and there were on-demand screens with movies, games, and television at each seat (that is until my 5 year old son somehow managed to break his and the FA's couldn't get it fixed). We even had menus in economy class.

So, what I have been wondering is this (and it's been bothering me for some time). Every morning, it seems several large body DL flights leave from all over Asia and converge on NRT around 11:00 a.m. Then, a few hours later, several flights leave NRT to points all across the U.S. At some point, flights arrive into NRT from all over the U.S. and then go off to Asia (usually in the late afternoon/evening).

1. Does anyone know if the same planes go from Asia to the U.S. or are the planes "dedicated" to Asian travel and correspondingly, U.S. (i.e. the U.S. originating planes return to the U.S).

2. Can they do this with one "set" of planes or is another set at the originating points when the planes are all sitting in NRT? I would think they would need a set in Asia, one at NRT, and one in the U.S., but it is sort of mind boggling to me.

I may be wrong, but isn't the A330-200 fleet mostly based in NRT? And I wondered myself, NRT being a hub and all, do they have a NRT base for pilots? Like Japanese citizens as pilots?

From a MX standpoint, it would make sense to operate planes from the NRT hub to the US every once and a while to do maintainance. NRT is a good sized operation, but it's not large enough to provide every need for their planes.

The only aircraft that stay within Asia are the 757's. They just do intra-Asia flights. I'm not completely familar with the current NRT schedule, but they often would schedule it so one of the A330's ended up staying in NRT, instead all the other aircraft (non-757) that came on from Asia ended up continuing on the US.

The NRT hub more or less functions as a 'directional hub' meaning all connections are either flowing eastbound or westbound, not omni-directional like say DTW or ATL.

Quoting aking8488 (Thread starter):Last month I flew from MSP-DTW-ICN, coming back ICN-NRT-MSP. I used to fly NW quite frequently to ICN (and GMP). Incidentally, the recently inaugurated 777LR from DTW to ICN was excellent.

Glad to hear it!!

Quoting aking8488 (Thread starter):1. Does anyone know if the same planes go from Asia to the U.S. or are the planes "dedicated" to Asian travel and correspondingly, U.S. (i.e. the U.S. originating planes return to the U.S).

Other than the recent introduction to the JFK-TLV route, the 747-400 fleet was a 100% Pacific theater dedicated aircraft. Beyond that, the 763's, 777's, and A330's are constantly rotating from Atlantic to Pacific and back.

Quoting aking8488 (Thread starter):2. Can they do this with one "set" of planes or is another set at the originating points when the planes are all sitting in NRT? I would think they would need a set in Asia, one at NRT, and one in the U.S., but it is sort of mind boggling to me.

I'll use 744's as my example since that's my personal specialty.

In your example of the convergence on NRT from the interport routes at 1100a, the rotations look something like this:

MNL-NRT-DTW
PVG-NRT-JFK
HKG-NRT-MSP

So all the aircraft arrive in NRT at the same approximate time. They then have an approx 2 hour ground sit during the hub time for connecting passengers to clear customs and transfer security. After that, they all depart on the Transpac's back to the US. Then in the US, they turn back for the Orient and repeat the whole process, just in reverse.

763's look something like:

GUM-NRT-PDX
PEK-NRT-SFO

And the 777 is easy, just one of em:

SIN-NRT-ATL

It is quite the thing to see the NW/DL hub in full swing. Quite the well-oiled machine that operation is.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1): may be wrong, but isn't the A330-200 fleet mostly based in NRT?

No. See reply 3 by DeltaL1011man. Once upon a time with NW the A332's were, indeed, almost completely dedicated to the Orient. Now, with significant crossfleeting under the merged DL, routes once operated by the A332 to the Orient are now operated by A333, 763, and 777.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):And I wondered myself, NRT being a hub and all, do they have a NRT base for pilots?

Noooooo.

Though when you stay in the crew hotel, it definitely does seem like a crew base

Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 8):What about the F/A's. Is there a base in NRT or are they deadheading just like the pilots?

Pre-merger, I know that NW had small F/A domiciles throughout Asia to staff intra-Asia flights. NRT, MNL, BKK and TPE come to mind, but there may have been more. However, at least the purser(s) had to be USA-based.

Post-merger, I don't know if that has changed, so wonder about the interport (NW's internal name for intra-Asia flying) cabin staffing.

Quoting dldtw1962 (Reply 8):What about the F/A's. Is there a base in NRT or are they deadheading just like the pilots?

There is a NRT base. On Transpac flights, all but 2 FA's are US based. On Interport flights, all but 2 FA's are foreign based. Under the PMNW system, the two US-based crew members were the purser and the 'chaser', as per the crew lingo.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 9):How many 757s are dedicated to the Asia service?

I think it's seven now.... not sure which ships are currently over there.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 9):Are they ferried back to the US for major maintenance,

Yes. Typically via ANC, sometimes via HNL as a live ferry flight.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 10):Pre-merger, I know that NW had small F/A domiciles throughout Asia to staff intra-Asia flights. NRT, MNL, BKK and TPE come to mind, but there may have been more. However, at least the purser(s) had to be USA-based.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 10):Post-merger, I don't know if that has changed, so wonder about the interport (NW's internal name for intra-Asia flying) cabin staffing.

It has remained the same. I'm pretty sure that PMNW crews operate all the interport flights since they are allowed to staff the same flights with the Orient-based crews. As far as I know, the PMDL crews currently can *not* staff the same flight with Orient-based crews. As such, they just do turns. JFK-NRT-JFK, ATL-NRT-ATL.... no interport flying - that goes all to the foreign and PMNW crews.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 12):I know when it was NW they had to DH as there was no other option but I thought that has changed.

It has changed. There is still a significant amount of Transpac DH'ing, but DL does indeed rotate crews into NRT circulation via PDX and SFO now. In the most recent bid packs, the DTW base had many lines that flew DTW-SFO on a 757, then the next day flew SFO-NRT on the 763ER. Same for MSP; MSP-PDX on a 757, then the next day PDX-NRT on the 763ER.

When NWA re-timed their Narita hub years ago the operation was called "fugu" which is a japanese word for a fish delicacy of a specially prepared blowfish. If prepared properly it is delicious (Japanese tastes), but if done improperly it can be fatal. Very appropriate name for the Narita hub operation. They put a lot of resources into the hub and my experience flying in and out of Narita it worked well. Sometimes OPS had to switch aircraft and wait for an inbound to get an airframe, but it worked almost flawlessly.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13):As far as I know, the PMDL crews currently can *not* staff the same flight with Orient-based crews. As such, they just do turns. JFK-NRT-JFK, ATL-NRT-ATL.... no interport flying - that goes all to the foreign and PMNW crews.

The only interport flying the PMDL crew ever did was the NRT-GUM 767 flight back when the FA cross-fleeting had not started yet. The PMDL NYC crew did that flight as part of a 5 day JFK-NRT-GUM-NRT-JFK trip.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13):It has remained the same. I'm pretty sure that PMNW crews operate all the interport flights since they are allowed to staff the same flights with the Orient-based crews. As far as I know, the PMDL crews currently can *not* staff the same flight with Orient-based crews. As such, they just do turns. JFK-NRT-JFK, ATL-NRT-ATL.... no interport flying - that goes all to the foreign and PMNW crews.

Quoting panamair (Reply 15):The only interport flying the PMDL crew ever did was the NRT-GUM 767 flight back when the FA cross-fleeting had not started yet. The PMDL NYC crew did that flight as part of a 5 day JFK-NRT-GUM-NRT-JFK trip.

As far as I know that WAS the case. Today crews of every aircraft can operate every aircraft that they are trained for. For example, any 757/767 crew can operate any 757/767 flight anywhere in the system. The only notable exception being the fenced 777 and 747 flight crews which obviously can only operate those aircraft. But that isn't a big deal as they are not cross trained with any other type.

Some sample crew routings might be:

A332:
SLC-NRT-HKG-NRT-SLC

777: Only DL Crews
ATL-NRT-SIN-NRT-ATL

747: Only NW Crews
JFK-NRT-PVG-NRT-JFK

767/757:
MSP-PDX-NRT-PEK-SEA-MSP
DTW-SFO-NRT-PUS-NRT-PDX-MSP

Now I think I have this right but once again I am not "in the know" so please correct me if any of my information is incorrect.

One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 16):Now I think I have this right but once again I am not "in the know" so please correct me if any of my information is incorrect.

Kinda close, but you seem to be confusing cabin crew and cockpit crew work rules and making a bit of a hybrid of the two. Cockpit crews are indeed now fully integrated. PMNW pilots can fly DL 763's, PMDL pilots can fly NW 753's, they can work as combined crews, etc. The 777 and 744 fences *only* apply to pilots, not FA's.

The FA's, as of yet, can *not* work together given the union representation issue. That is why the PMNW crews are so much more 'efficient' as the crews for the interport flights as they can mix and match with Orient-based crews.

Partially correct. PMDL pilots are the only crews that may fly the 777. PMDL ATL-based FA's operate ATL-NRT-ATL as a turn, but PMNW and Orient-based crews operate the NRT-SIN-NRT (or in the case of SIN base, SIN-NRT-SIN) turns.

Partially correct. Again, only PMNW pilots may fly the 747-400. As far as I know, the DL side of the NYC base operates the JFK-NRT-JFK turn. But, same as your example above, PMNW and Orient-based crews will do the NRT-PVG-NRT; and since PVG is one of the FA bases, PVG-NRT-PVG.

For the SEA-base, I'm pretty sure that both KIX and PEK are turns and don't see any interport rotations. I could very well be wrong on that though, the crews may operate KIX-GUM-KIX on the 757's.

But in a sense, you have it mostly correct - at least how the pilot rotations would look. DTW-based FA's would *not* operate SFO-NRT though, as there is a small PMNW SFO-base who operates both the NRT and the HNL flights out of there.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 19):i doubt they keep those big birds based in narita, and i doubt that they ferry them in for those flights.

To put it simply, they are indeed 'based' in NRT. Under the NW system, the A332's were easily able to rotate from the Pacific to the Atlantic given SEA-NRT, SEA-AMS, PDX-NRT, and PDX-AMS were all A332's. With SEA-NRT now an A333 and PDX-NRT a 763, there is no link between the Pacific and the Atlantic for A332's.

So yes, there are more A332's in the Pacific - currently - than there are Transpac routes using them. A particular bird may rotate TPE-NRT-BKK instead of doing any transoceanic flights.

As for fleet rotations, you'll see occasional A332's operating ATL-LAX and LAX-ATL. From my understanding, they use those to swap aircraft from the Atlantic to the Pacific and vice versa.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 19):where do they get the extra 4 a332 for the interport flights?
i count 7 from lax and 5 from slc- per a week, but 7 to BKK, & 7 to HKG with 2 to TPE per a week. thats 4 extra a332s

i doubt they keep those big birds based in narita, and i doubt that they ferry them in for those flights.

On the days that SLC does not operate you can operate extra Interport sections.