Recently I've been listening to a series of messages from Joe Brenneman dealing with seven issues that apparently became taboo at FA shortly after brother Freeman's death (within 2 weeks or so). These messages were not presented chronologically but were interspersed from the beginning, when brother Brenneman became pastor of FA, up through this year. I may not have found all of them but so far I've found at least 15 messages. I've listened to all that I've downloaded so far.

The series is called: Scriptural Principles or Personal Opinions

I think the starting point is 1997 if anyone wants to find and listen to them. (Use the Paltalk link at the bottom of the page and select Recorded Sermons at FA.)

Brother Brenneman says that these topics were issues that were once taken for granted at FA until the prohibition. I don't disagree with this, in fact one could make a good case that these issues almost became the defining characteristics of FA.

Joe says that scriptural principles are presented in such a way so as to preclude there being 2 different interpretations with both interpretations having merit. In other words, if there is a disagreement over these issues there are only two possibilities: Both sides are wrong or one side is wrong and the other side is right-- i.e. both sides cannot be right.

These things are not a matter of personal opinion (says Joe) they are fixed standards that do not change.

I'll post some thoughts on these things later but if you've got some time it would be interesting to hear what you all think.

Brother Brenneman is the polar opposite of his brother Jim when it comes to the speed of his message delivery so if you have a way of speeding up the messages you'll not miss anything. I have a mp3 player that allows me to speed up the audio by a factor of 1.5 which is helpful when trying to go through many messages. I've found that, by using the speedup feature, he sounds exactly like Jim!

I can't comment because I don't know Joe and haven't heard him preach...what was the prohibition? Questioning these things, or continuing to preach on them as scriptural principles for Christians to follow?

I am just curious, which of the 7 listed "inappropriate issues/tradition" did he break? Wearing pants?

So if a fellar watches 'sports' on 'tv' during a 'holiday'.............<grin>

Sorry, I'm a bit giddy today, tax season ends tomorrow and the anticipation of it is intoxicating.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

The prohibition was that there was to be no sermons on these topics from the pulpit.

As far as Joe Brenneman is concerned, the only reason I mention him is due to the fact that he represents the current FA and provides the continuity between the past and present teaching. I have no desire to focus on him personally but I am interested (somewhat) in how others in our circles have evolved (or not) in their understanding of these things.

I will say this about brother Brenneman--he is thorough. Even when I don't agree with his conclusion I appreciate the comprehensive manner he takes when he approaches a subject.

So far, I take it that there are--no pants, no participation in competitive sports, no holiday participation, no rock music (its not the words, it is the music), no TV, and denominations still represent Babylon --at FA.

I'll need some more information before I can comment on the other topics.

There is a lot of time spent defending the idea that the position taken by FA on these subjects is not legalism. In other words, since there are scriptural principles underlying these issues, it is not legalism to expect obedience to these conclusions.

I would agree that it isn't legalism to obey Jesus (whether we are talking about His direct teaching or principles derived from His teachings) but my problem is when certain conclusions are reached and these conclusions are equated with the teachings of Jesus.

Anyway, I hope that we can discuss the proper relationship between the issues presented and how they relate to the concept of legalism and/or personal opinion/freedom.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works
1 Tim 2:9-10 (KJV)

(It did not say anything about pants) Did men wear pants back then ?
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------
2) Sports
3) TV

11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Tim 4:11-13 (KJV)

4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Acts 6:4 (KJV)

I do think time would be better spent doing this above and more rewarding..
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------------

4) Holidays
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:16-17 (KJV)

Are people judging us be cause we don’t do these things ?
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------
5) Medical Science

26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.
Ex 15:26 (KJV)
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------
6) Rock Music

2 Praise the Lord with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
4 For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psalms 33:2-4 (KJV)
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------
7) Denominations as Babylon

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:22 (KJV)

After listening to at least 15 messages on these topics above, I just found a new set of messages (done in 2005, I believe) and the first one in this new series seems to have a different emphasis. At least that is the way I'm hearing it.

I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression about these messages so I'll only say that this is the way *I* perceived them.

What we are dealing with here is the tendency to make rules out of principles and those who don't follow these rules/principles are simply carnal or at worse not Christian.

At the expense of sounding carnal I'm going to say that watching TV, or wearing pants (if you are a woman), or people who listen to so-called 'christian rock', or people who attend denominational services, or playing competitive sports (like golf!<grin>), or enjoying a holiday (with some exceptions!), or even going to a MD-- IS NOT THE DETERMINATIVE FACTOR AS TO ONE'S SPIRITUAL CONDITION.

All of theses things may have the potential of revealing a carnal heart but there is also the possibility that someone who does these things is not the devil that we once thought they were. It's possible that such a person loves God with their whole heart and wants to please Him in every way.

The problem with making these ethical considerations a matter of law is about as serious a situation as I can imagine.

Ethical behavior (in the above mentioned issues) is by nature subjective. We make decisions based upon our best understanding of what is right and what is wrong. It is important to know the Scriptural principles outlined for us in the Word so that the decisions that we make reflect "our best understanding" of what we believe is God's will.

The decision to not commit adultry is an ethical decision but not in the same vein as the decision to watch a TV show. We make the decision to watch a show based upon whether it is proper or not in the light of our best understanding of God's will. We already know God's will is concerning adultry so there isn't that subjective element, our decision is based upon the objective word of God at that point.

Those topics were deemed taboo by a group of our brothers. I take it to mean that they believed that these topics were best dealt with by individuals seeking to follow God and the decisions reached were matters between the individual and God.

Of course if one believes that these topics don't have an element of subjectivity then it becomes easy to judge a person as being carnal (or even unsaved) if the official position is not strictly adherred to by those who are making the decision.

In fact, it seems to me (and I could be totally missing something here) that there is the presumption that those who depart from the party line are really not serious about serving God. That was our attitude way back when, and it seems as if nothing is changed.

Maybe, just maybe, the decision to not discuss these topics from the pulpit was based upon hearts that did not want to conform to God's standards but it is just possible that these men made this decision because it was the right decision. These kinds of things might not ought to have been placed on the same plane as the law was to the OT believers.

First to get the facts straight with Brother Ron...The only college football bowl game I have ever attended was the 1990 Outback Bowl in Tampa, Florida; Auburn beat Ohio State 31 to 14. I still remember most of the big plays...War Eagle!

Now as to the 'laws' and 'legalistic' opinions most of us have shared at one time or another. There was a time when I wholeheartedly accepted and embraced all the before mentioned 'seven'.

I have no problem myself if a woman wears pants.(I won't add my opinion as to how they should fit)TV? Rock music? I pick and choose, I do enjoy football, baseball, basketball, and golf on TV(and liked to play myself when a younger man). Medical science? That is a no-brain-er for me...I have modified my position as concerning if they serve any useful purpose...I think they do...for those who are unbelievers or Christians lacking the faith to totally trust Jesus. Denominations? What else can be said that hasn't been...but I believe there are born-again people in that system of man.(I once had serious doubts as to that being probable.) I haven't changed my views concerning the holidays, (except for Thanksgiving)

Let's face it, many of those in our circle of belief during that period of time loved rules and regulations(myself included); but at times it seems to me, looking back, that we enjoyed policing others more than we liked looking in the mirror. It's obviously human nature because we see it still today, but as we yield to the work of The Cross and seek The Mind of Christ these carnal attitudes and opinions will be replaced by a more humble, thoughtful, and merciful mindset.

I think there is a big difference between compromise of Biblical, ethical, principles clearly set out in scripture and not allowing others(peer pressure, personal opinions) to negatively influence how we walk out our faith.(I remember specifically HEF stating that he disliked shrimp...that was his personal opinion; I saw people stop eating them because of this influence...but they didn't stop there, they started condemning those of us who continued eating them...too bad I didn't see some other things as clearly at the time.) But it's just another way the enemy seeks to destroy Christians; we must be ever diligent in discerning his wiles. Bondage is bondage, whether it be legalism, drug addiction, fear, 'rules from a pulpit', or any other of the almost numberless sins that bind up people.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

First to get the facts straight with Brother Ron...The only college football bowl game I have ever attended was the 1990 Outback Bowl in Tampa, Florida; Auburn beat Ohio State 31 to 14. I still remember most of the big plays...War Eagle!

<grin>

I do think Ron may have a real problem with TV, especially after seeing how he prefers fantasy (Ohio State beating Bama??? Give me a break!) over reality. <grin>

Quote:

Let's face it, many of those in our circle of belief during that period of time loved rules and regulations(myself included); but at times it seems to me, looking back, that we enjoyed policing others more than we liked looking in the mirror. It's obviously human nature because we see it still today, but as we yield to the work of The Cross and seek The Mind of Christ these carnal attitudes and opinions will be replaced by a more humble, thoughtful, and merciful mindset.

You said a mouthful of truth there! Talk about competitive... we certainly competed like pros in those blood sports!

James said:
First to get the facts straight with Brother Ron...The only college football bowl game I have ever attended was the 1990 Outback Bowl in Tampa, Florida; Auburn beat Ohio State 31 to 14. I still remember most of the big plays...War Eagle!

James,
I humbly retract my statement….( must have missed that game….. )

William added:
I do think Ron may have a real problem with TV, especially after seeing how he prefers fantasy (Ohio State beating Bama??? Give me a break!) over reality. <grin>

Ya see how too much TV can affect your mind, I thought they won all there games ?
No more Buckeye TV channel for me ! (I repent !)

James said:
Let's face it, many of those in our circle of belief during that period of time loved rules and regulations(myself included); but at times it seems to me, looking back, that we enjoyed policing others more than we liked looking in the mirror. It's obviously human nature because we see it still today, but as we yield to the work of The Cross and seek The Mind of Christ these carnal attitudes and opinions will be replaced by a more humble, thoughtful, and merciful mindset.

Amen………………….

Praise God for His Grace an Mercy on us, let us bestow that to others.

I've noticed that in each of these messages it is stressed over and over that the things being dealt with are not rules. Yet it becomes apparent that rules are exactly what is being set forth.

The reason these things end up being rules (in spite of a constant denial that rules are being presented) is due to the fact that the conclusions reached are considered to be the right conclusions.

Secondly, they become rules when those who don't agree with the 'teaching' are simply dismissed as not really being serious disciples of Jesus.

Thirdly, they become rules when there is an assumption that demonic oppression is a characteristic of those who don't follow these 'scriptural principles'.

Fourthly, they become rules when each area is associated with demonic activity. This is kind of like the whole medical-science-equals-occult argument. If one doesn't tow the line, one opens the door to evil spirits. This effectively eliminates any of these activities as being considered anything but a rule for those who want to please Jesus.

Obviously I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they have to listen to all of these messages before commenting but at the same time I find it difficult to believe that someone would spend this much time on things that I see as totally improper for a minister of the Gospel to be addressing--at least to the extent they are being addressed.

This particular message is only dealing with one aspect of the overall subject matter but it gives a pretty fair representation of the kind of mentality that is being expressed in the other messages.

I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what is being said but what is being said is not a reflection of the practical ramifications of what is being taught.

You might ask why I'm even bothering to bring these things up; why is it important? I'm not sure I have a satisfactory answer. Normally I would not give this kind of thing the time of day. The one thing that I can say with conviction is that I'm not trying to justify any of my own behavior or conduct with reference to these issues. I find it necessary to say that, because the primary assumption exhibited in these messages, is that people who don't agree with the conclusions reached, are simply carnal and want to justify why they do what they do. Following close behind that assumption is the implication that a person who has a problem with the teaching is simply oppressed and needs deliverance.

I guess that the main reason I'm posting is because I really hate to see people being shepherded into a position (any position) --in the name of the Lord-- under the guise of spiritual authority. People become acquiescent, not because of sincere conviction of the Holy Spirit, but because all avenue of dissent has been effectively taken from them and non-compliance is too painful to consider under the circumstances (peer pressure, fear of being disfellowshipped, etc.).

I tried to listen but just decided I'd stop about 10 minutes into the sports 'principles'...So I can say I still know very little about Joe or what he teaches. I'd imagine that each of the seven issues/topics that he said were prohibited at Faith Assembly shortly after Brother Freeman's death, would reflect the general teaching of HEF on these subjects. I too agree with much/some of what he is saying but like I think you are saying, William, he turns around and hammers the principles into laws...imo.

He may be right, it may be wrong to toss a ball around with your kids, it might even be a demon spirit manifesting when a person dunks/stuffs a basketball through the hoop...but I don't see that in The Word, nor do I see any scripture that would lead one to that conclusion. Are professional sports corrupt? You bet. Are college sports filled with win at all cost mentalities? Yepers. Is wearing skin tight, revealing, colthing being modest? Nope. Should Christian women (and men) be discerning in what they wear? Of course. But will sister Sally Mae get a demonic spirit for putting on a pair of comfortable jeans to protect her legs while helping gather the corn or okra? I can't find that principle, suggestion, or verse in The Bible.

And that is exactly the road we went down 30 years ago...I've done it...Hobart Freeman did it...and probably every person reading this has done it...Making our "opinion's" into laws and rules and expecting everyone to 'see' what we saw. In our zeal we became intangled once again in that which we'd been set free from...legalsim/bondage/works. Now if it's clear in God's Word, then that's something all together different; but even then, we must learn to stop expecting everyone to be at the same level of maturity at the same time...Sin is sin, and should never be excused, but the 'lording' over others doesn't get The Body of Christ anywhere closer to being what Jesus is coming back for...a bride without spot or blemish, in unity, and overcoming.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

For reasons I can't really put my finger on, all the years those messages have been on this forum, I've never listened to any of them until tonight.... maybe I understand why now.(that's not to judge him in any way...my spirit just doesn't bear witness to what I heard as being anointed by God for the perfecting of the saints.) btw: I feel the same way about Malcolm Webber, the one or two messages I listened to by him on teaching people about medical science and warning them against 'extreme faith'.(bout the same as the cry for a moratorium on trusting Jesus up to 'deaths door experiences')

Anyway, praise God for mercy and grace...may we ALL receive it, and not what we deserve.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Anyway, praise God for mercy and grace...may we ALL receive it, and not what we deserve.

Amen to that.

I guess that both of those ministries represent extremes, at least from where I'm standing. One speaks of the 'extreme faith message' and attempts to sever ties to the past while the other seeks to live in the past, not realizing that growth requires moving beyond childish 'dos & don'ts' and into maturity.

Sadly, we all shared the same experiences. Like Paul said, we all drank from the same Rock and here we are... barely able to speak to each other or recognize the good in the others.

Just think where we might be if Jesus' prayer that we might be one actually became a reality. Surely each of us together could supply whatever lack we are now experiencing.

We not only have this great separation between those in our own circles but to make matters worse, we can't even get along with anyone else who names the name of Christ.

We seem to be cursed with the curse of Ishmael:

Ge16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Actually, given what I know about the prayer of faith, I'm going to bank on the prayer of Jesus (He certainly prayed in FAITH!):

Quote:

John17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

...

John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Webber, Brenneman, William, James, Ron, Gillyann, Mark, Wishing (and many more)... all of us and those represented by us and all who have yet to experience their inheritance... all one with Jesus! Glory!

Actually, given what I know about the prayer of faith, I'm going to bank on the prayer of Jesus (He certainly prayed in FAITH!):

Quote:

John17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

...

John17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Webber, Brenneman, William, James, Ron, Gillyann, Mark, Wishing (and many more)... all of us and those represented by us and all who have yet to experience their inheritance... all one with Jesus! Glory!

Amen...Things that look impossible to man certainly are possible with God. Imagine actually BEING...made perfect, one with Christ, walking in the glory The Father has given Jesus...Amen, amen; let it be so LORD, according to Thy Word.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Just to clarify and avoid any misunderstandings, I believe there are demons and I believe they are far more prevalent than most Christians realize. Also I'm not an expert on demons or deliverance from them; but I do have some experience and understanding about them.

That being said, I also believe it is sometimes the nature of Christians ministering to make a point they believe passionately about, to continue beyond that which they KNOW and start reaching for additional 'ammo' they may not really have or is solid facts that can be shown or found in The Word of God.

That can lead to what I heard Joe saying in his message...rather than pointing to scripture and biblical principles to warn the sheep about sports/competition, he began reaching or maybe even embelishing with statements like...a significant percent of those involved in sports are homosexual. Hello brother, a significant number of the general population are homosexual...Of course these aren't rules or regulations and no one is trying to bring anyone into bondage; but "I will say this", yada, yada, yada! And then all of a sudden a person finds themselves painted into a corner, and with statements such as these he/we lose the audience because even though parts of the message is true and biblically sound, people who aren't bound up in fear will see through ideology like this.

I know because I've done the same thing...but at some point in our journey we've got to grow in our relationship with God to where we're not walking in fear of becoming demon possessed if we pick up an arrowhead in a field or shoot a basketball, kick a football, or hit a baseball. I believe The Word of God tells me that if I'll abide in Him and His Words will abide in me...I ain't gotta worry what's behind every bush.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Just to clarify and avoid any misunderstandings, I believe there are demons and I believe they are far more prevalent than most Christians realize. Also I'm not an expert on demons or deliverance from them; but I do have some experience and understanding about them.

That being said, I also believe it is sometimes the nature of Christians ministering to make a point they believe passionately about, to continue beyond that which they KNOW and start reaching for additional 'ammo' they may not really have or is solid facts that can be shown or found in The Word of God.

That can lead to what I heard Joe saying in his message...rather than pointing to scripture and biblical principles to warn the sheep about sports/competition, he began reaching or maybe even embelishing with statements like...a significant percent of those involved in sports are homosexual. Hello brother, a significant number of the general population are homosexual...Of course these aren't rules or regulations and no one is trying to bring anyone into bondage; but "I will say this", yada, yada, yada! And then all of a sudden a person finds themselves painted into a corner, and with statements such as these he/we lose the audience because even though parts of the message is true and biblically sound, people who aren't bound up in fear will see through ideology like this.

I know because I've done the same thing...but at some point in our journey we've got to grow in our relationship with God to where we're not walking in fear of becoming demon possessed if we pick up an arrowhead in a field or shoot a basketball, kick a football, or hit a baseball. I believe The Word of God tells me that if I'll abide in Him and His Words will abide in me...I ain't gotta worry what's behind every bush.

Exactly... using anecdotal evidence is not proof of a doctrine. It might support something you want it to support but it is not the way we establish doctrine.

And this practice of using "God spoke to me... " to prop up dubious doctrine and add authority to the speaker's words, has got to stop. (e.g. the arrowhead revelation).

Hopefully most of us don't roll-over and play like dead-Bereans when we hear someone use the phrase but a lot of Christians check their brains at the door when someone claims that God told them something. (I shouldn't need to say that I believe that God can speak to us, but just in case someone thinks I'm a cessationist, I'll say: "Yes I do!")

Hopefully most of us don't roll-over and play like dead-Bereans when we hear someone use the phrase but a lot of Christians check their brains at the door when someone claims that God told them something.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1

It's not my place to critique the pastor of Faith Assembly or to call his calling into question, I have only read a few of his blogs and listened to one teaching message and parts of a few others. I do want to say that I probably would agree with much more than I'd disagree with concerning what he teaches.

But the scriptures on not becoming entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage(can do/can't do...eat this/don't eat that...)are there for a purpose; to warn us to avoid the rules and regulations of legalism and trying to place others under them as well. I'm all for the "old paths" Jeremiah 6:16; I believe we should be holy as He is Holy; I believe we should be dilligent concerning the wiles of the devil; but what I heard in the expounding(yes, he is indeed thorough) of these 'seven issues' was de-ja vu to my spirit. And just as I believe was the case with HEF, he may not be aware of the fact that people will take 'opinions and personal beliefs' and make them rules and regulations based on the respect they have for the messenger. But he should! Because he's got to be aware of that happening 30 years ago. I don't think it's wrong to mention personal beliefs to a point, but I think where it becomes a problem is when you/me/he/anyone starts saying things like..."but I will say this, I don't see how anyone serious about pleasing The Lord would..." that's almost always a personal opinion and not backed up by sound biblical references. And it brings not liberty and freedom in Christ but rather bondage and condemnation...not to mention peer pressure within an assembly. It's like the minister doesn't have any confidence in the sheep being able to discern and listen to The Holy Spirit themselves.

I mean, for crying out loud, we are here to learn aren't we? Why go around in circles? Why? Maybe because the structure of laws and rules make us feel like we're 'earning' something or are more 'deserving' of the FREE Grace that's been bestowed upon us. I don't think that is what was meant when we were told about 'WORKS' in James chapter 2.

To me the sad thing is, we can have three points to a message and two can be great but if the principles aren't biblically sound and found in scripture and is only the personal opinions of the messenger then often the credibility is lost and the good is lost due to the focus on the opinions of man rather than God's Word.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."