remi wrote:Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but why not just go on stubhub, make a fake account and post a bunch of ticktes available for 300-400$. I would feel bad for anyone that purchases these, but it would saturate the market enough to scare scalpers.. and that would be just dandy!

I'm sure there are laws against this, but even worse are the people who are really going to get hammered are the desperate burners who really needed a ticket and really wanted to go.Legalities aside, that would be a crappy thing to do.

vargaso wrote:I'd be willing to bet the odds on getting a ticket from a StubHub listing are at least as good if not better than the odds of getting a ticket through STEP. People are gonna buy from scalpers, that's just a fact, and at this point, I hold no ill will towards those that do, especially people from overseas. People wanna go to Burning Man, some very badly. Next year, I hope the BMORG figures out a better way to fight scalpers, but this year, they're out there and every single one that actually does have a ticket for sale will make money. Every single one.

I agree with this. I would think the odds are much better than through STEP but if you are coming from another country, can you take that risk? (silly question really).

I am guessing that if a scalper had 20 tickets he tried to sell on StubHub or eBay, and he listed them at different prices, and only managed to get 15 tickets. He'd pass those along to the ones that bought the more expensive ones and tell the cheaper buyers sorry. Which makes me want to ask the question, how much money is a BM ticket really worth?

remi wrote:Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but why not just go on stubhub, make a fake account and post a bunch of ticktes available for 300-400$. I would feel bad for anyone that purchases these, but it would saturate the market enough to scare scalpers.. and that would be just dandy!

I'm sure there are laws against this, but even worse are the people who are really going to get hammered are the desperate burners who really needed a ticket and really wanted to go.Legalities aside, that would be a crappy thing to do.

Though I do wonder if it would bring up the policy problem with posting tickets that are not in hand and ready to ship. Many (all at this point) of these scalper entries are just speculative scalpers, posting their entries and then just hoping for the best that they'll have the actual tickets to sell later. What is then the difference between these speculative scalpers in practice and someone who knows he'll never actually have a ticket to furnish to the buyer in the end? "Whoops! I guess I didn't have a ticket for you by August 26th, here's your money back!"

"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

With ZERO tickets in anyone's hands right now, anything you see on StubHub, eBay, or any other spineless ticket whore, are just speculation on their part that they will possibly get some tickets. They can put down listings for 200 if they want, then refund 175 people at the end of August, with a very sincere apology and a $10 coupon for next time.

Remember, there is no way that any ticket whore has a single ticket now---NOT ONE!

If you are buying tickets on StubHub now, you are just being stupid. Once the flood of tickets go out in June, the prices will come down and will probably be a little over the max ticket price. Last year, there were plenty of tickets a couple of week before the Burn and they were not far off from face value.

If Burn Man Org was to be smart about this (You can stop laughing now), they would release all of the tickets at the same time. If 90% of the ticket buyers get their tickets at the same time, the market will be flooded and ticket prices will be suppressed. Camps and individuals will know if they are going or not and those who want tickets will get them. Prices will rise a bit, peak and then fall as the event comes very near. They will be at face value right before the event as people selling tickets don't want to get stuck with them.

Aside from the issue of price there is the very real issue of validity. Even if the seller isn't considering the option of listing their ticket in multiple places/multiple times, and only actually doing business with the best price… they could very well lose their ticket. Until fulfillment happens, Burning Man reserves the right to cancel the sale of any tickets it was believed with the intention of selling above face value. So purchasing something through stubhub or some other channel doesn't actually get you any real piece of mind between now and June.

trilobyte wrote:Aside from the issue of price there is the very real issue of validity. Even if the seller isn't considering the option of listing their ticket in multiple places/multiple times, and only actually doing business with the best price… they could very well lose their ticket. Until fulfillment happens, Burning Man reserves the right to cancel the sale of any tickets it was believed with the intention of selling above face value. So purchasing something through stubhub or some other channel doesn't actually get you any real piece of mind between now and June.

The nice thing about Stubhub is that info about the actual tickets (pictures, etc) don't get included by the seller, so it's essentially impossible for anyone to know that the tickets you are selling there are being sold for higher than normal price. Of course, if a seller posts the same ticket for sale in venues like craigslist or ebay, all bets are off, and as a buyer, you'll never know if the seller did post other places.

It's a risk, but Stubhub handles a ton of scalped tickets for a huge range of events, so the risk is probably not that large. Still, the idea of showing up at the gates to the playa and only then discovering that your ticket is fake is pretty horrible, especially if you're not from NorCal or Nevada. I think I might just explode in a simultaneous BOOM of rage, self-disgust, and deep depression.

Counterfeit tickets were a bit of a problem last year. I heard that they were pretty good. I think that is why there is a delay in getting tickets out this year--less time for counterfeiters to do their work.

The scalper issue is a whole new mess. Tickets being offered up for sale, just don't exist. The scalpers may have been offered tickets by people who won the lottery, but there is no guarantee that the scalpers will ever see them. They could also be offered tickets by people who are not lottery winners--just scammers.

As said before, a reputable ticket reseller will refund your money, but by then you will have paid for flights and all your other arrangements.

Yes, they have no tickets. When they post numbers for sale, they are not being truthful---it's ZERO. They will however take your credit card information from you right away, and bill the inflated prices immediately.

Shambala wrote:Counterfeit tickets were a bit of a problem last year. I heard that they were pretty good. I think that is why there is a delay in getting tickets out this year--less time for counterfeiters to do their work.

The scalper issue is a whole new mess. Tickets being offered up for sale, just don't exist. The scalpers may have been offered tickets by people who won the lottery, but there is no guarantee that the scalpers will ever see them. They could also be offered tickets by people who are not lottery winners--just scammers.

As said before, a reputable ticket reseller will refund your money, but by then you will have paid for flights and all your other arrangements.

Yes, they have no tickets. When they post numbers for sale, they are not being truthful---it's ZERO. They will however take your credit card information from you right away, and bill the inflated prices immediately.

That's right Shamb! and for 10% less than the others you can send your $$$ to me. I will be sending out tickets some time in june after I get mine. I do need that $$$ now though. I am kinda busy at the moment so please send it to my coulge he is the crown prince of Nigeria and a pretty Swell guy. His Email address is pretty easy to find just put "Prince of Nigeria and meme into a google.TNX.

.......................................................................................Oh yeah, this year I was totally twerping out at the fence. ~Lonesombri

After reading the various threads about purchasing tickets via outlets such as Stubhub and Ebay, I have run across many post with straight up wrong answers. People on this forum have informed, quoted, and relayed the community over and over again information that has 0% validity. *Disclaimer* I do not work for stubhub, nor have any affiliation with the company. I am not a scalper, a broker, or scammer. I do however use the service and purchase tickets on the site from time to time. And I am a 2012 Burning Man Ticket owner. (won in the lottery)

It seems to me that the #1 misconception on ticket selling on the site is that a scalper can just magically post tickets he/she does not have, sell them at an inflated price, and have an option down the line to just cancel the order or not fulfill the order without ANY repercussion. This is not true, not one bit. By listing tickets on the exchange a seller must fulfill the tickets he promised to every last detail. That means the tickets must be 100% genuine, delivered on time, and exactly what the buyer agreed to purchase. There are no ifs and or maybes about this issue. If however a seller cannot fulfill this order he/she will be charged with all applicable fees associated with REPLACING the tickets promised to the seller. This is called "fan protect".

Once tickets are listed and purchased on Stubhub, a written contract between buyer and seller has been formed with the middle man being Stubhub. Although the two parties never exchange information or money directly, they are in agreement. The buyer must pay in full the set price + fees, and the seller must provide what he/she has promised to a T. This is called Buyer Protection & Seller Protection.

Over and over again on this forum I have seen the misconception that their is still perceived risk that once a burner purchases a ticket on Stubhub, that they will still not get in. This is not true, stubhub under fan protect will find you tickets either on their own exchange or through other outlets to forfill the order. This will come at the expense of the seller who could not provide the tickets. When someone lists tickets on the site, they must enter their full identity along with a preauthorized credit card. This card will be charged for whatever amount needed to replace the fake or non existent ticket. If you are rejected at the gate, Stubhub will be right there on location or at a nearby location to get you another set of tickets. This happened to me at the Superbowl this year. I purchased tickets, got to the gate, and was denied. I called them, and they not only got me in but upgraded my seats to the lower bowl.

Again, take this however you want, I am sure there will be 10 pages of flame or this post will be deleted. The point of this is to inform the "community" of the correct information. But sometimes on eboards and forums, people really do not care nor want the truth, they just want to hear nag, brag, or complain most of the time leaving out the truth.

You will get your tickets in time for the eventYour tickets will be valid for entryYour tickets will be the same as those you orderedIf any of these things do not occur, we will find you comparable or better tickets to the event, or offer you a refund

andIf the event is cancelled and not rescheduled, you will get a refundIf you do not receive the tickets you ordered on or before the expected delivery date set forth in the email you received when you placed your order:StubHub will attempt to locate the tickets you ordered and work with the seller or shipping carrier to try to get them delivered to you prior to the event. If StubHub is unable to get the tickets you ordered delivered to you in time for the event, StubHub will attempt to find comparable or better (to be determined by StubHub) replacement tickets to fulfill the order at no additional cost to you. If replacement tickets cannot be found, cannot be delivered in time for the event, or the time for the event has passed, StubHub will issue you a refund for the cost of the tickets, including service fees and shipping and handling charges.

If tickets received are not the same or better than those you ordered:If, prior to the event, the tickets you received are not the same or better than the ones you ordered, give StubHub a call at ************ right away. If StubHub determines that you did not receive tickets that are the same or better than the ones you ordered, StubHub will either (in StubHub s sole discretion): (i) provide you with replacement tickets that are comparable or better than the tickets you ordered; or (ii) StubHub will issue you a refund for the cost of the tickets, including service fees and shipping and handling charges. In either case, StubHub may require that you return the tickets. If StubHub requires that you return the tickets, we will provide you instructions.

If you have attended the event and you believe your seats were different from how they were represented on the Site by the seller, give us a call at ************** right away. StubHub, in its sole discretion, will either issue you a partial or full credit of the price you paid for the tickets towards a future purchase

To the OPs saying that StubHub is safe.While there might be a written contract that you will get the ticket. A written contract won't save you from a forged tixket that you find out is forged when you get to Gate and you are turned away. I don't think StubHub will cover your loss of getting to the event, the week off work you took, the art you brought etc etc.

So yes, while there are some implicit guarantees built into StubHub you (as a consumer) still run the risk of getting a forged ticket and being turned back at Gate. And that would really fuck your day.

melaniejane wrote:To the OPs saying that StubHub is safe.While there might be a written contract that you will get the ticket. A written contract won't save you from a forged tixket that you find out is forged when you get to Gate and you are turned away. I don't think StubHub will cover your loss of getting to the event, the week off work you took, the art you brought etc etc.

So yes, while there are some implicit guarantees built into StubHub you (as a consumer) still run the risk of getting a forged ticket and being turned back at Gate. And that would really fuck your day.

Again, this is a misconception. Stubhub will be at or near the playa during the event. They are at all events they sell tickets for. If you do not believe me, call them yourself and ask. ( I already did this). I know it might be scary to trust a scalped ticket but to be honest, Stubhub provides a service to people who can afford it. Event goers with money actually prefer exchanges like this because like any service, they have your back when something goes wrong. Buyers pay 10% and seller pays 15% of the total transaction. That is 25% off every ticket sold. This money like any insurance company is including home/car insurance is used to cover the cost and fees associated with handling fake tickets. I highly doubt, if one purchases on stubhub gets rejected at the gate, that they will simply get their money back. Usually you get your money back and something for your troubles.

[quote="melaniejane"]Still gotta say, if you buy from a scalper please don't consider yourself a burner.

Buy from a scalper - you are the 1%.[/quote]

It's funny how if you gamed the lottery with multiple entries in excess of your actual needs thereby screwing other burners who played by the rules your tickets are okay. OTOH if you played by the rules entering only for the tickets you needed and didn't get any and then got screwed again by being limited to your one ticket allocation in STEP....leading you to buying a Stubhub ticket so you can ensure your 2012 burn plans....you are an evil mofo who should be shunned.

That's lame. It's kind of like that scene in Aliens where Ripley says "...at least they [the Aliens] don't fuck each other over for a burning man ticket..." or something to that effect.

The burners who buy Stubhub tickets didn't fuck over other burners like the lottery gaming burners did so I suggest you cut them some slack.

Seems to me that anyone selling their tickets for above the original cost on Stubhub are already in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG. Not only that, they gamed the lotto to make sure they would get themselves the max number of tickets. Supporting them is far worse in my opinion than having gamed the system to make sure that you and maybe three of your friends (if you were sensationally lucky) get to go at cost. If he is honest in his listing, the guy on Stubhub selling 48 BM tickets for $2499.00 screwed almost fifty burners out their tickets.

Last edited by Stephendragonfly on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stephendragonfly wrote:Seems to me that anyone selling their tickets for above the original cost on Stubhub are already in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG. What makes you think that these kinds of people would honor their agreement with Stubhub then?

Please quote me where it is illegal or in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG to resell a ticket for more than what you got it for? This is another example of someone not being informed properly and spreading inaccurate information. Please do your research before you speak or post on a public forum.

melaniejane wrote:Still gotta say, if you buy from a scalper please don't consider yourself a burner.

Buy from a scalper - you are the 1%.

It's funny how if you gamed the lottery with multiple entries in excess of your actual needs thereby screwing other burners who played by the rules your tickets are okay. OTOH if you played by the rules entering only for the tickets you needed and didn't get any and then got screwed again by being limited to your one ticket allocation in STEP....leading you to buying a Stubhub ticket so you can ensure your 2012 burn plans....you are an evil mofo who should be shunned.

That's lame. It's kind of like that scene in Aliens where Ripley says "...at least they [the Aliens] don't fuck each other over for a burning man ticket..." or something to that effect.

The burners who buy Stubhub tickets didn't fuck over other burners like the lottery gaming burners did so I suggest you cut them some slack.

Don't bite my head off. I didn't game. Requested one ticket in pre-sale and got one ticket.

If you encourage scalpers now then you will feck up the Burn for future years.

Short term thinking, and focussing on "me, me,me" and "I want it now" is just going to turn the ticketing into the mess that is Coachella et al.

Stephendragonfly wrote:Seems to me that anyone selling their tickets for above the original cost on Stubhub are already in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG. What makes you think that these kinds of people would honor their agreement with Stubhub then?

Please quote me where it is illegal or in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG to resell a ticket for more than what you got it for? This is another example of someone not being informed properly and spreading inaccurate information. Please do your research before you speak or post on a public forum.

Clause 19 says

Burning Man retains the right to cancel, rescind or revoke any ticket purchases at any time prior to delivery of the actual tickets to the purchaser, for any reason whatsoever at Burning Man’s sole discretion. If anyone purchases a Burning Man ticket with the express intention of reselling it for above face value, or attempts to sell or sells a ticket for above face value, Burning Man has the absolute right, in its sole discretion, to cancel any such ticket order cancelled without advance notice.

So how about heeding your own advice. But anyway since you are an employee of StubHub, or a scalper, I guess the facts are just a little inconvenient.

elninostrikesback wrote:Please quote me where it is illegal or in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG to resell a ticket for more than what you got it for? This is another example of someone not being informed properly and spreading inaccurate information. Please do your research before you speak or post on a public forum.

Its a little long, but okay

19. Ticket Sales and Random Selection Ticket Sales If you are agreeing to these Terms and Conditions as part of the registration procedure for a random selection ticket sale process, this paragraph is binding upon you, but the other paragraphs in these Terms and Conditions become binding only if you are selected through the random selection process to purchase tickets for the Burning Man Event and your ticket purchase is not rescinded or revoked.

Under a random selection ticket process, a limited number of tickets will be made available in order to create equal opportunity for participants to purchase tickets for the Event. You will be informed of the procedures for the random selection ticket process during your registration for the process, and by your registration you agree to be bound by those procedures and to waive any right to challenge the procedures in the process. During the registration period for a random selection ticket process, you will register for an opportunity to purchase tickets, but your registration does not guarantee you the right to purchase any tickets. At some time after the end of the registration period, a computerized random selection will be conducted to award tickets to registered participants.

As part of the registration process, you must provide current contact information and a valid credit card. Invalid credit card numbers will be disqualified from participation in the selection process, and you will NOT have an opportunity to provide a secondary form of payment. Only one registration per person and per credit card will be allowed, and if a person registers more than once all registrations by that person may be canceled.

If you are selected through the random process, your registered credit card will be charged automatically for the price of the ticket(s), a per ticket service fee, a per order service fee and any applicable delivery fees. Once you are selected through the random process to be the purchaser of tickets and your credit card is charged, you cannot cancel or withdraw your ticket order, and, as with all ticket sales, the sale is final. In the event your credit card is declined by the credit card company for any reason, the sale to you will not be processed and the random selection of you as a ticket purchaser will be voided.

Once you have purchased tickets through any direct or random sale, you will be ineligible to purchase any other tickets or to apply for Low Income tickets.

For any ticket purchasers or random ticket process registrations, in the event that, for any reason whatsoever, including computer or software malfunction, mistake or inadvertence, you are not selected to purchase any tickets through a random selection process, or your registration for a ticket sale or any sale of tickets to you (whether during any ticket purchase process, including a random selection process) is not processed, or you receive a notice that your ticket purchase or selection to purchase tickets is rescinded, revoked, canceled, or made in error and your credit card payment is credited to your credit card account, you waive any claim against Burning Man and release Burning Man from any and all liability.

Burning Man retains the right to cancel, rescind or revoke any ticket purchases at any time prior to delivery of the actual tickets to the purchaser, for any reason whatsoever at Burning Man’s sole discretion. If anyone purchases a Burning Man ticket with the express intention of reselling it for above face value, or attempts to sell or sells a ticket for above face value, Burning Man has the absolute right, in its sole discretion, to cancel any such ticket order cancelled without advance notice.

Stephendragonfly wrote:Seems to me that anyone selling their tickets for above the original cost on Stubhub are already in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG. What makes you think that these kinds of people would honor their agreement with Stubhub then?

Please quote me where it is illegal or in violation of the terms of agreement with BMORG to resell a ticket for more than what you got it for? This is another example of someone not being informed properly and spreading inaccurate information. Please do your research before you speak or post on a public forum.

Clause 19 says

Burning Man retains the right to cancel, rescind or revoke any ticket purchases at any time prior to delivery of the actual tickets to the purchaser, for any reason whatsoever at Burning Man’s sole discretion. If anyone purchases a Burning Man ticket with the express intention of reselling it for above face value, or attempts to sell or sells a ticket for above face value, Burning Man has the absolute right, in its sole discretion, to cancel any such ticket order cancelled without advance notice.

So how about heeding your own advice. But anyway since you are an employee of StubHub, or a scalper, I guess the facts are just a little inconvenient.

again, please show me where it says you 100% cannot resell? Bmorg has the right to - just like how they have the right to pull all 50k seats for no reason. That clause does not read "you cannot resell over face value" or " you are a bad person if you sell for more than face"

I am not a legal expert, so please do not construe this as legal advice, but by reserving the right to cancel your ticket for attempting to resell it above value, the BMORG is saying that you have violated the implicit terms of the contract should you do so, else why would they claim the right, particularly when they have already stipulated that they can cancel ticket rights for any reason at their discretion.

elninostrikesback wrote:again, please show me where it says you 100% cannot resell? Bmorg has the right to - just like how they have the right to pull all 50k seats for no reason. That clause does not read "you cannot resell over face value" or " you are a bad person if you sell for more than face"

That "you are a bad person if you," would seem to be implied. I believe that the Bmorg has worded the contract in such a way that they can revoke your ticket rights for the intention to resell said ticket rights for a profit, as well as the act. However since scalping is legal (though never moral, in my opinion) in many places, you cannot be legally stopped from being a scum eating parasite, I mean, profitably reselling your physical tickets (which won't be sent until June) should you find a sucker, I mean, willing buyer.

BTW, I find it quite interesting that you refer to permission to attend a week long event as "seats." Kind of a dead give away as to your true attitude and possibly your profession...

Scalping is legal in the state of Nevada, whose laws govern the event. While we frown upon the practice, once a seller has a ticket in hand they may legally sell it at any price. Before tickets have been fulfilled, Burning Man reserves the right to cancel the sale of any tickets it believes were purchased with the intent to resell above face value.

ePlaya does not allow the listing of ticket sales or auctions on 3rd party sites. We will allow tickets to be listed and sold person to person on ePlaya via the tickets offered/wanted boards once fulfillment happens in June. We strongly encourage sellers to sell their tickets for no more than the cost of face value plus shipping, but any direct ticket listing (that is, not also being offered on or linking to a 3rd party site) that is for a fixed price (no auction or 'make me an offer' listings) is allowed, at any price.

Buying any ticket outside of STEP before ticket fulfillment happens in June carries with it a great deal of risk. Since nobody has either a physical ticket or the ability to transfer the will call sale to another person there is a chance that you'll still end up ticketless. If someone selling above face is identified and their sale canceled, then you end up with no ticket. It's also entirely possible that a person whose morals/ethics/business practices supports scalping tickets could also support listing the same ticket in multiple places, with the intention of only fulfilling the ticket to the person who's offered to pay the most (on the upside, at least a site like stubhub or ebay affords some kind of buyer's protection).

And of course, tickets purchased from STEP will be non-transferable, and held at the box office in the name used for registration back in January.