We talk about the title change from Prometheus 2 to Alien: Paradise Lost and how that could effect what we see in the film. We also chat about Ridley Scott’s latest science-fiction film, The Martian and what implications that could have on Alien: Paradise Lost.

Join us next month for our 30th episode and a discussion about Peter Briggs’ Alien vs. Predator script from the early 1990s. You can find a link to the first draft in our Downloads section. Feel free to submit any comments or talking points you’d like to hear us address in the next episode.

Sorry, Hicks. This is an argument that neither ends nor makes progress. On the one hand, the Spaihts script seems more coherent than Lindelof's mess. On the other, the Spaihts script has its share of dumb/bad/inexplicable elements that may or may not have been fixed before or during filming. You and others seem sure that the problems with the Spaihts script would have been fixed in a satisfying way.

Absolutely! We'll never know if they would have been fixed in a satisfying way and like you say, we'll never know. However, I do believe that the stuff that needed fixing in Spaiht's draft wasn't as bad or numerous as the what needed fixing in the finished film. I firmly believe that Spaiht's draft would still make a more entertaining film if it was filmed as is than what we got. But that's my opinion.

It needed polishing. We say it every single time it comes up. But a script where the story is coherent and the characters motivations are understand make an infinitely better foundation.

Sorry, Hicks. This is an argument that neither ends nor makes progress. On the one hand, the Spaihts script seems more coherent than Lindelof's mess. On the other, the Spaihts script has its share of dumb/bad/inexplicable elements that may or may not have been fixed before or during filming. You and others seem sure that the problems with the Spaihts script would have been fixed in a satisfying way. Yet, Scott was very happy to make Lindelof's mess. So, there is every reason to think he might have changed things in a way that would have made a film using the Spaihts script worse than the script itself suggests. But we will still never know as the film from the Spaihts script was never made.

I have read the synopsis of the Spaihts script and I generally liked it. Both would be flawed to an extent. But I generally agree it really comes down to a personal preference. It's like Jurassic Park movie vs the novel. They are different in many ways, some are more appealing than others. The movie is loosely based on the book's main points, but is quite different, even between the character's journeys.

One thought: Scott is privy to knowledge from FOX as to what they want to do with the franchise. It is perfectly plausible to believe that he made Prometheus, flawed and all, with full knowledge that he would do sequel movies, parallel to ALIEN or prequel(s), and further explain the plot holes, decisions and events that unfolded in the film. Remember, FOX holds the rights so any interviews they do are still subject to what they've given rights to discuss.

Can't wait for the next podcast. I feel like you've got one for each movie's alternate, runner-up scripts.

It needed polishing. We say it every single time it comes up. But a script where the story is coherent and the characters motivations are understand make an infinitely better foundation.

Sorry, Hicks. This is an argument that neither ends nor makes progress. On the one hand, the Spaihts script seems more coherent than Lindelof's mess. On the other, the Spaihts script has its share of dumb/bad/inexplicable elements that may or may not have been fixed before or during filming. You and others seem sure that the problems with the Spaihts script would have been fixed in a satisfying way. Yet, Scott was very happy to make Lindelof's mess. So, there is every reason to think he might have changed things in a way that would have made a film using the Spaihts script worse than the script itself suggests. But we will still never know as the film from the Spaihts script was never made.

I can't fathom how Spaiht's script was better. His script made "super" aliens into minor nuisances. So what if the script was much more coherent, that doesn't mean it would have been a good idea to have made that movie instead.

I'd rather they just ignore Alien 3 and Resurrection. Things like memory implants, dreams, etc are just pathetic IMHO and far more of a cop-out. Unfortunately it does actually make a lot of sense for it to be a hyperspace dream because of things like Prometheus and the Alien novelization. I would just hate it.

Spaiht's script was a far more solid foundation than Lindelof's botch job. It wasn't without some issues that needed polishing but it was actually coherent and the characters, as HuDa said, actually make decisions that suit their character.

Personally I would have changed some aspects to not have it lead directly into Alien - so not be set on LV426 and not have the crashed ship be the Derelict but otherwise it was just tidying, I felt, that was needed.

I know. But that does not mean the Spaihts script would have resulted in a significantly better film.

I think it would have. My number one problem with Prometheus was how utterly illogical the characters were at times, they'd do things simply to further the plot rather than because a rational person would. That issue didn't exist in the Spaihts script. The characters' actions were logical and justifiable.

All that needed cleaning up were the underpowered Aliens, but even as it was I consider Spaihts' version superior to what we got.

It seemed to me the various creatures were too easily destroyed, and the idea of producing a giant-sized warrior was sort of silly. But I'm sure your discussion about it will be worth a listen.

We've said countless times the script was not without problems, and needed more work. But when they gave it to Lindelof to do that work, he broke far more than he fixed.

I know. But that does not mean the Spaihts script would have resulted in a significantly better film. Everyone hopes that would have happened, but we'll never know. Prometheus was not very good, and it remains to be seen whether the new movie will be any better.

In general I really agree with you. However, Prometheus had so much promise that the end result was a bitter disappointment and the complaints are legitimate.

This! Bitter disappointment. But I'm not convinced the Spaihts movie would have turned out that much better.

I still think it would have been a far better film. All Prometheus had over Engineers was David and Fassbender. We intend on doing an episode discussing the Engineers script at some point early next year.

Since it was not made, we can only speculate. It seemed to me the various creatures were too easily destroyed, and the idea of producing a giant-sized warrior was sort of silly. But I'm sure your discussion about it will be worth a listen.

In general I really agree with you. However, Prometheus had so much promise that the end result was a bitter disappointment and the complaints are legitimate.

This! Bitter disappointment. But I'm not convinced the Spaihts movie would have turned out that much better.

I still think it would have been a far better film. All Prometheus had over Engineers was David and Fassbender. We intend on doing an episode discussing the Engineers script at some point early next year.

I know I'm repeating myself but I honestly hope Blomkamp just simply ignores Alien 3 and Resurrection but not for the reasons which most people would think. I love Alien 3, and Resurrection could at best be described as... underwhelming but I need to reform my opinion on it again. I rather he wouldn't touch these films and attempt to explain them. I mean it could fit in with a timeframe between Aliens and Alien 3, but there is a two week travel from LV-426 to Fury-161, and Weaver's age.. is also a problem unless digital de-aging is done.

Another form of retconning is that he could go the easy way out, and that's with the dream or memory implantation route. Personally, I call this the Bobby Ewing route. Sure it's an easy fix and a lot of fans speculate that Alien 3 and Resurrection were hyperspace dreams but I find this.. to be a cop out. Also, as a casual fan of the Alien series, I would feel a little bit insulted. The whole dream thing is just a way of saying that Alien 3 never happened, but it did happen as a dream, but it never really happened anyway..

I hope when Biehn says is true, that Blomkamp simply pretends that they never happened. I don't want something contrived and easy as going the dream route. If this is going to be an alternative Alien 3, then simply just ignore the last two films and take off after Aliens.

I'd rather they just ignore Alien 3 and Resurrection. Things like memory implants, dreams, etc are just pathetic IMHO and far more of a cop-out. Unfortunately it does actually make a lot of sense for it to be a hyperspace dream because of things like Prometheus and the Alien novelization. I would just hate it.

At the end of the day, we simply know too little about the film and people are complaining too much about the one thing that is a given and we don't know how he's going to pull it off.

I know I'm repeating myself but I honestly hope Blomkamp just simply ignores Alien 3 and Resurrection but not for the reasons which most people would think. I love Alien 3, and Resurrection could at best be described as... underwhelming but I need to reform my opinion on it again. I rather he wouldn't touch these films and attempt to explain them. I mean it could fit in with a timeframe between Aliens and Alien 3, but there is a two week travel from LV-426 to Fury-161, and Weaver's age.. is also a problem unless digital de-aging is done.

Another form of retconning is that he could go the easy way out, and that's with the dream or memory implantation route. Personally, I call this the Bobby Ewing route. Sure it's an easy fix and a lot of fans speculate that Alien 3 and Resurrection were hyperspace dreams but I find this.. to be a cop out. Also, as a casual fan of the Alien series, I would feel a little bit insulted. The whole dream thing is just a way of saying that Alien 3 never happened, but it did happen as a dream, but it never really happened anyway..

I hope when Biehn says is true, that Blomkamp simply pretends that they never happened. I don't want something contrived and easy as going the dream route. If this is going to be an alternative Alien 3, then simply just ignore the last two films and take off after Aliens.

Another fine discussion gents. I think whatever the result of Paradise Lost and the ultimate explanation of the Alien; I think it's only fitting that Ridley Scott be the person to do it. Not James Cameron or anyone else. (Once upon a time I'd say Dan O'Bannon too, but then didn't he say the alien would slowly evolve into a predator?)

Although deeply flawed, I think Prometheus is one of those films that will be far more enjoyable to revisit once the sequel is available and some of it's long-running questions are finally answered.

In general I really agree with you. However, Prometheus had so much promise that the end result was a bitter disappointment and the complaints are legitimate.

This! Bitter disappointment. But I'm not convinced the Spaihts movie would have turned out that much better.

Quote

The only "fan service" aspects seem to be the revival of Hicks and Newt. I've seen nothing in his concept art that would make me think he's doing "more of the same". Are you referring to anything specifically? If anything, I like how open Blomkamp has been about his own film making and how Weaver and Isolation have made him reconsider his film. At the end of the day, we simply know too little about the film and people are complaining too much about the one thing that is a given and we don't know how he's going to pull it off.

Perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote

Quote

Prometheus was a great entry, not saying flawless, not even Alien is flawless, but way better than Ressurection and those god awful AVP movies.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. It's better than AvPR, definitely but I find Resurrection interesting in a trainwreck kind of way and AvP is mildly entertaining. Prometheus I just find frustrating because it could have been so much better.

I think AvP Director's Cut is a fun movie. AvPR is the one that makes no sense. It's. So. Painfully. Bad. But if you're looking for continuity, AvP causes a lot of problems. AvP says the preds already had significant influence on the development of humanity. And the xenos have already been on earth. Hardly seems that would be possible, but whatever. Resurrection is what it is. I understand what it is and why; but like you, I put it pretty far down the list.

It's better than AvPR, definitely but I find Resurrection interesting in a trainwreck kind of way and AvP is mildly entertaining. Prometheus I just find frustrating because it could have been so much better.

Mirrors my thoughts. Prometheus might be a better film than Resurrection on a technical level, but Resurrection at least has the power to entertain me in a cheesy, b-movie kinda way. It knows what it is and makes no apologies for it.

Prometheus on the other hand seems to think I'll ignore how stupid it is at times just because it asks a few lofty questions about the origins of man and the creation of life. I find it so impossibly frustrating to watch, it's like they were so interested in asking those epic questions that they forgot to check whether the little things around them made sense. Well I'm sorry, but you can't do that if you're trying to be a serious, important movie.

Sorry guys for getting heated and being an ass...My intentions isn't insult anyone one person or the community at large. I just can't stand the excessive whining about what could have been.

In general I really agree with you. However, Prometheus had so much promise that the end result was a bitter disappointment and the complaints are legitimate.

Quote

As far a Blomkamp being able to do what he wants with his movie that fine, but I think he should tread lightly with making as you put it a "fan service film". The majority of fans no nothing of what makes a good film. Taking the elements of previous films that we enjoyed and simply adding more or going over the top with them, as Blomkamp's concept art suggests isn't the way. I believe that when original Alien came out, nothing like it had ever been seen before. It left a permanent mark in the psyche of many people. It left them wanting more. Which is a good thing. But not at the cost of having the same stuff rehashed over and over.

The only "fan service" aspects seem to be the revival of Hicks and Newt. I've seen nothing in his concept art that would make me think he's doing "more of the same". Are you referring to anything specifically? If anything, I like how open Blomkamp has been about his own film making and how Weaver and Isolation have made him reconsider his film. At the end of the day, we simply know too little about the film and people are complaining too much about the one thing that is a given and we don't know how he's going to pull it off.

Quote

Prometheus was a great entry, not saying flawless, not even Alien is flawless, but way better than Ressurection and those god awful AVP movies.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. It's better than AvPR, definitely but I find Resurrection interesting in a trainwreck kind of way and AvP is mildly entertaining. Prometheus I just find frustrating because it could have been so much better.

If I do have some questions it would be perhaps three questions.. Why was Machiko changed to Hiroko? Were there anymore drafts and what differences were between them? And perhaps this one.. fourteen years since Predator 2, and eight years after Resurrection.. why didn't we get this movie especially considering the advancement in film technology? Was it because studio heads were always changing or the studio didn't have faith in Brigg's script?

Thanks, Rakai. I'll try and make sure we answer (or at least discuss) these for you.

Sorry guys for getting heated and being an ass...My intentions isn't insult anyone one person or the community at large. I just can't stand the excessive whining about what could have been.

As far a Blomkamp being able to do what he wants with his movie that fine, but I think he should tread lightly with making as you put it a "fan service film". The majority of fans no nothing of what makes a good film. Taking the elements of previous films that we enjoyed and simply adding more or going over the top with them, as Blomkamp's concept art suggests isn't the way. I believe that when original Alien came out, nothing like it had ever been seen before. It left a permanent mark in the psyche of many people. It left them wanting more. Which is a good thing. But not at the cost of having the same stuff rehashed over and over.

I think too many times people get caught up in rekindling the the spark and feeling they got originally, and try to do it all over again. Just give me more of the same stuff they cry! But if these movies are to continue to inspire and captivate us they need to go in new and sometimes unexpected directions to do so efficiently. Prometheus was a great entry, not saying flawless, not even Alien is flawless, but way better than Ressurection and those god awful AVP movies.

Not sure if this is the appropriate place to post a comment in regards to the next podcast about the Peter Briggs script but, if it is.. I'd like to share a comment and maybe a question.

I've always felt that the AVP stuff from the 1990s was the definitive and true essence of what AVP is supposed to be and not what it's become now with the whole Prometheus idea influencing things. For me and maybe a lot of people, AVP started off as an EU thing but over the years I came across the Briggs script and was surprised how much it took from the comic. I've heard for years that it was in development hell, that there were issues with producers, budget restrictions, etc. And we all know that Anderson supposedly looked at the Briggs script, and took somethings from it and presented us with what we have now.

If I do have some questions it would be perhaps three questions.. Why was Machiko changed to Hiroko? Were there anymore drafts and what differences were between them? And perhaps this one.. fourteen years since Predator 2, and eight years after Resurrection.. why didn't we get this movie especially considering the advancement in film technology? Was it because studio heads were always changing or the studio didn't have faith in Brigg's script?

Don't get me wrong, I liked the two AVP films we got but I'm not gonna argue that this is the movie we all should've got, and maybe we wouldn't have these massive changes we have going on now.

By "Giger-aesthetic" I am talking about the look of the Derelict ship and the Jockey and planet which is very relevant to Prometheus because Prometheus is trying to expand upon that ship and creature. A large part of what made that film stand-out was his designs, his melding of machine and biological. It's what made the Jockey such an endearing mystery - it was unlike anything.

My issue with Prometheus is that they take his design and turn it away from the mechanical and biological and make it look more rocky than biological which was a deliberate design choice by Arthur Max. I recall interviews where they said they wanted to move away from Giger's designs, designs that helped elevate that film (one of many things, of course). I'm talking more about the locale than anything though - as I said, the compound/complex/pyramid as seen in the film pales in comparison to the concepts that quite obviously influenced in.

The whole man in a suit thing doesn't bother me though. I love the looks of the Engineer. That immense height and those black eyes - I love it. Some of the shots where the Engineer is looking at you with those empty eyes were fantastic. I know why people don't like it though and I also liked the idea of an endless, Lovecraftian type creature and would have quite happily had that too.

So Scott is allowed to tell whatever story he wants but Blomkamp isn't?

It still tickles me that the overwhelming positive reaction to the idea of Hicks and Newt coming back when Blomkamp first revealed the concept art has all but vanished. I'd prefer it not happen (I don't want to mess with the continuity and timeline of the films) but I like the idea of seeing Hicks back. As long as it actually ends up being a good film, I'm happy in the end though.

The issue with Prometheus isn't that it creates mystery. It's that it promised to be a really intelligent film that was answering questions. It didn't really do that. Instead it served a lot of setup and doesn't really serve well as a film in its own right. That's an issue.

We're not one-sided. We all have have differing opinions but we're able to present them and discuss them (either disagreeing or persuading) without descending into insulting each other. We don't necessarily know each other's opinions going into these things either - it's just a bunch of fans chatting and seeing what comes up. Same as we also have intelligent people from the community able to discuss things without insulting each other guest star too.

You've only made 2 posts here and in both you've taken to insulting the community here. I suggest you rethink your attitude and present disagreements without insulting the members of the community.

You guys are sooo silly....you expect so much from something that doesn't belong to you nor does it care for you. This podcast i had high hopes for. So parts were good but a lot of it was just bitching. At one point you ask for mystery, you get it with the Engineers wanting to kill us for no real reason we know yet. Then you cry about it...the entitlement here is rank!

Another great podcast gentlemen! I really look forward to downloading new ones and listening ASAP as I have listened to others' and AvPG Podcast does a fantastic job of discussing a great deal of material without sounding repetitive.

@Doesitmatter: "Giger-aesthetic" is what's responsible, to a large degree, for the cult following of ALIEN. His designs of not only the creatures but also the derelict ship and Space Jockey speak volumes to his unique artistry and the lasting impact of the film from a design/creature perspective. Not to downplay the rest of the film, it's perfect in all aspects, but the Giger-aesthetic was revolutionary and still holds value and lasting impact today and that's what we want to see a return to.

Personally, I don't mind the Engineers from a design perspective. It has grown on me a bit, but initially I didn't care much for them and I know why others are still upset. I don't care what ALIEN 5 is as long as it's not a garbage-filled disservice to the films that preceded it (Resurrection notwithstanding, can't get much worse[AvPR]). Be a fanboy wet dream. I think I'd actually enjoy that. We don't need another ALIEN 3-style entry in the series that is so different it takes a decade for people to start to appreciate it, unlike ALIEN and ALIENS.

The thing is, the podcast reflects the opinions of those who participate. If you're so against it being a one-sided discussion, talk to Corporal Hicks. PM him. Ask him to be on the next cast. As long as it's not some stupid yelling-over-each-other debate, I'd love to listen to it!

I really don't get this whole "Giger aesthetic". You do realize aside from the opening scene in Alien and the creature design itself, there is NO other "Giger aesthetic" in the movie. Same goes for the rest of the movies. They take place on the ships, colony and prison. Prometheus had probably the same amount of "Giger aesthetic" if not a little more than any of the other entries. The engineers aren't that bad of a design. They were modeled off of old angelic sculptures which make sense if they were our creators. They have to look something like us. Even if that's not the story you wanted its what we got and they did a great job with designing them meaningfully. The problem i think you have, like with most people. is you went in thinking you knew the best way Scott could do a prequel and forgot its not about you or any of the other fans. Its about the story HE wanted to tell.

As far as Blompkamp's movie, my feeling is with you. This will just be a fanboy's wet dream, constantly jumping the shark, now with engineers. Because of all the whining that was done about Prometheus, this movie will be a cash grab pandering to the fanboy and I feel the same fate awaits the Prometheus sequels as they shoe horn in the xenomorph to appease the fanboys, rather than wait for the three movie tie into Alien that Scott was quoted numerous times saying he intended on doing.

I think, we really can't infer much about what these new movies are going to be from what has been said so far. The biggest problem is, with the disappointing execution of Prometheus as a story, Ridley Scott & Co are starting from a creative deficit. I completely agree that Giger's aesthetic is a big part of the Space Jockey and the Derelict's allure. The idea that it's just a suit and the engineers are nothing more than big, bald humans was a letdown. But I think the EU and the comics also got it wrong. The original Jockey Chair design really had no room for the Jockey's legs. That does not mean the Jockey was an elephantine creature with long arms and stumpy legs. It's ludicrous. It's more likely Dallas was spot on in his appraisal, that the Jockey was grown out of the chair, providing a living brain for the biomechanical ship.

Now, of course, all that is discarded. EU is always disposable. Ask the Star Wars crowd about that. And whatever we may think, Scott and Fox get to say what it is. They've said we're stuck with big, bald humanoids in suits. So, that's that. And as you say, we're looking at the same production team. Unless something incredible happens, it seems likely the new movie will be more muddled crap and still missing the Giger aesthetic. I do expect at least one scene of ~20 Michael Fassbenders interacting together on screen. Beyond that, I think Blomkamp's movie will be "Aliens: Fan Service" or maybe "Aliens: More of the Same, Now with Big Bald Engineers." It's unfortunate as this new life for the franchise should be invigorating. We'll find out soon enough.

About the 'link with Ripley' : Shaw being her mother or grandmother, NO thank you, I couldn't agree more of course ! especially if she's sterile At some point in Paradise, Shaw and David must have to encounter some humans, (wouldn't mind them being the only ones coming from Earth, but I can't see that happening) and one of them mentionning Ripley at some time, maybe without naming her, still implying it's her in way (which way?!) would be ok for me... if Ridley doesn't change his mind and abandon this idea in between, who knows ?

I suppose it depends when PL takes place. Whatever they do - I really hope it either serves the story (like in Isolation) or it's just subtle.

Quote

Lovely Poster art of the mural

One of the great things about Prometheus is you never want for pretty pictures.

About the 'Are Aliens a naturally occured specie or bioweapons' ? bottom line is like Corporal said, both are nice ideas. And both could coexist also. We know humans have a tendency to copy things, particularly if they work, and since we share the same DNA with Engineers, it wouldn't be so a stretch that they would try to recreate the xenomorph (which one would be the better, the copy or the original ?!)

About the 'link with Ripley' : Shaw being her mother or grandmother, NO thank you, I couldn't agree more of course ! especially if she's sterile At some point in Paradise, Shaw and David must have to encounter some humans, (wouldn't mind them being the only ones coming from Earth, but I can't see that happening) and one of them mentionning Ripley at some time, maybe without naming her, still implying it's her in way (which way?!) would be ok for me... if Ridley doesn't change his mind and abandon this idea in between, who knows ?