They sing song back an forth empty feel good statement, each trying to, ever so slightly, out do each other in their praises of God and Jesus.

Yes, well said, it's a glory-pissing contest. +1

So many theists need to be seen and heard to be obviously faithful - it's all about outward display - behaving the motions and spurting the mumbo-jumbo. It's a cover up for the doubts and emptiness inside. They never realize that all those "faithful" around them are engaging in the same fake behaviour. They think everyone else is for real. And if only they can mix it with the best of them - somehow they'll also be part of it and be saved. That God will be too busy to look beyond their skin deep obsequious expressions of faith to the fearful child-mind inside.

Idon't quite ascribe to the "they don't really believe" theory. When they are in Jesus talk, I think they really do believe....with the fearful child mind. But that's part of the point, the appeal, of the Christian religion as it is practiced by the masses. You don't need to think, you can just have your emotions as your thoughts...and because said emotions are now connected with THE ALMIGHTY OMNIPOTENT CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, those emotions are both validated and important.

Think about it, when a person is angry, being sujugated or at war...they talk of God's wrath.If they are in a concilatory or guilty mood they talk of God's forgivenessIf they are using, as one said, false humitity to bolster themselves, they talk of God's gloryIf they are feeling sollomn, they talk of Jesus's sacrifice.

Whatever you are feeling at any given moment is better than acceptable, it is good that you are feeling it ;bacause it reflect THE ALMIGHY OMNIPOTENT CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

No hard "thinking" is required, in actuality it is discouraged.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I don't quite ascribe to the "they don't really believe" theory. When they are in Jesus talk, I think they really do believe....with the fearful child mind.

Yes Hatter23, I understand your point. Certainly that is why I'm comfortable with calling faith a delusion. But I think they operate in two modes, depending on circumstances.

Where I'm coming from is that whenever I've isolated a theist friend, one-on-one, and gently probed - they have admitted to being troubled by serious doubts. Granted, it's often with pride that they admit this to me, and that they have the strength to persevere in faith regardless. But in a moment of trust and honesty they will concede they have problems with accepting many of the beliefs expected by their particular religion. I have come across this numerous times over several years.

Just today - a few hours ago, I had a close theist friend tell me that I was "upsetting his balance" when I sent him that video link on the dissection of the giraffe pharyngeal nerve. Three days ago, we had breakfast together and chatted at length about Genesis, and he agreed with me that Creationism is absurd. We also chatted about the randomness of natural disasters and suffering, and he agreed that it is totally inexplicable and unfair. He even asked me to give him material to help him understand what is wrong with the bible. But now back in his normal circle he has switched on an acting role of projecting solidarity in faith - as expected by the other Christians around him.

I cannot conceive that anyone successfully blocks out the evidence and logical case against the myths in the bible without comprehending the significance, or at least seeing a glimpse of the point in the atheist argument. I think they are pretending it has no impact on them - and hiding away deep in the flock of sheep, hoping they wont be noticed.

I cannot conceive that anyone successfully blocks out the evidence and logical case against the myths in the bible without comprehending the significance, or at least seeing a glimpse of the point in the atheist argument. I think they are pretending it has no impact on them - and hiding away deep in the flock of sheep, hoping they wont be noticed.

I agree with this. Then you get a guy like SOI who feels he needs to stand out. To be a shepherd. In fact, he feels he needs to come here and look for lost sheep that he as a shepherd can bring back into the fold. I believe this to be true of all theists that come here.

Yet, when they get here, they realize that the sheep here are tougher than they thought and refuse to be lead anywhere, and this either disappoints them, angers them, or both. Rarely do they comprehend, or even try to, why we won't be lead Then confused by our response to them, they return back to the flock frustrated, continue to wallow in the mud with the others, and because of the fear that god knows their thoughts, proceed to shake their heads thinking "fine! I tried god ! they can stay lost then ! they'll suffer your consequences for their stubbornness !! ".

In my case, they fail to grasp that I'm not lost and voluntarily left the flock of my own volition. I didn't lose my way by accident or following other sheep. I know exactly where I am, I know exactly why I'm there, I know that it's a much better place to be in, I know that I need to lead myself through life, and I know that I certainly have no desire to be lead by a shepherd or be part of a flock again

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"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Yet, when they get here, they realize that the sheep here are tougher than they thought and refuse to be lead anywhere, and this either disappoints them, angers them, or both. Rarely do they comprehend, or even try to, why we won't be lead Then confused by our response to them, they return back to the flock frustrated, continue to wallow in the mud with the others, and because of the fear that god knows their thoughts, proceed to shake their heads thinking "fine! I tried god ! they can stay lost then ! they'll suffer your consequences for their stubbornness !! ".

In my case, they fail to grasp that I'm not lost and voluntarily left the flock of my own volition. I didn't lose my way by accident or following other sheep. I know exactly where I am, I know exactly why I'm there, I know that it's a much better place to be in, I know that I need to lead myself through life, and I know that I certainly have no desire to be lead by a shepherd or be part of a flock again

Not too frustrated.

Lost sheep would not be why I am here. See, lost sheep belong to the flock.

That god that you guys don't believe in DOESN'T EXIST! But the one I'm talking about DOES exist and you should believe in him even though there's no more evidence for this one than the other one that you didn't believe in and who wasn't real.

Wow. Mental.

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String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

A: Forgiveness is the cornerstone of finding peace when feeling an injustice has been done. It's a gift to yourself as well as an example for the offending person.

Q:What are my rewards in a world full of injustice, hatred for each other, where every person that has ever existed DIED!!

A: Through learning that you share the potential to maintain a still mind, and in that stillness you find an unshakeable peace and joy for the living experience. The reward is life itself assuming freedom from ego.

Q:What 's the big deal with this man called Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of the Living God? Promising eternal life to those who hear him???

A: In 1945, some authentically ancient documents where found. One of those Documents has been called the Gospel of Thomas. interestingly, it's not acknowledged by the mainstream Christian religion(s). The Gospel of Thomas contains 114 sayings attributed to a man called Jesus. in this Gospel you aren't presented with any mysticism. It's more a dialogue on spirituality, and an insightful one at that. Mysticism leads to a requirement of faith unless you have the good fortune to witness the mystical event. Faith (think suicide bomber) can be easily abused. After reading the Gospel of Thomas I feel confident that the mysticism is not Jesus. in the Gospel of Thomas it's not about eternal life, just living a good life, in my opinion.

59..Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."

An obvious truth, perhaps. Spirituality is a living experience and truth.

Q:Why didn't God ever reveal himself?A:If you take God as analogy for spirituality, then you have answer.

Spirituality: 1: something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such 2: clergy 3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values 4: the quality or state of being spiritual : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs> 2a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual> 3: concerned with religious values 4: related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir> 5a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena [/quote] I’m guessing you are wanting to make up your own definition. Tell the difference between this god and spirituality.

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Q:Why will God not take revenge upon my enemies?A: Forgiveness is the cornerstone of finding peace when feeling an injustice has been done. It's a gift to yourself as well as an example for the offending person.

Pretty amusing since this god (and I am assume that you are talking about the bible one) wasn’t all about forgivness at all, but revenge constantly all through the bible despite the claim of turning the other cheek. He’s one of those do as I say, not as I do idiots. And I wonder, do you think we should have just allowed Hitler to kill all those people and forgiven him once he was done?

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Q:What are my rewards in a world full of injustice, hatred for each other, where every person that has ever existed DIED!!A: Through learning that you share the potential to maintain a still mind, and in that stillness you find an unshakeable peace and joy for the living experience. The reward is life itself assuming freedom from ego.

Nice woo there. And I have my rewards already, a battle well fought for a good reason, the knowledge that I’ve made a difference. I don’t have to curl up and examine my belly button.

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Q:What 's the big deal with this man called Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of the Living God? Promising eternal life to those who hear him???A: In 1945, some authentically ancient documents where found. One of those Documents has been called the Gospel of Thomas. interestingly, it's not acknowledged by the mainstream Christian religion(s). The Gospel of Thomas contains 114 sayings attributed to a man called Jesus. in this Gospel you aren't presented with any mysticism. It's more a dialogue on spirituality, and an insightful one at that. Mysticism leads to a requirement of faith unless you have the good fortune to witness the mystical event. Faith (think suicide bomber) can be easily abused. After reading the Gospel of Thomas I feel confident that the mysticism is not Jesus. in the Gospel of Thomas it's not about eternal life, just living a good life, in my opinion.

oooh, authentically old documents. Same happened when they found the Egyptial “book of the dead”. Makes it no more real than these bits of Christian nonsense, all of the books that they can’t agree on but are all et to claim that each one of them knows the “truth”. And I do honestly enjoy one more version of the excuse why there aren’t actual miracles to see.

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59..Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see." An obvious truth, perhaps. Spirituality is a living experience and truth.

Not as far as any evidence shows. Each theist wants to claim that they have some special knowledge and every single one of you fails at demonstrating that.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

is considered preaching. It is preaching because you make a lot of religious claims and provide no evidence they are true. Preaching is not allowed here. If you would include reasons for why you think we should believe your preposterous claims, then it would be a valid discussion. Thanks.

A: Forgiveness is the cornerstone of finding peace when feeling an injustice has been done. It's a gift to yourself as well as an example for the offending person.

Q:What are my rewards in a world full of injustice, hatred for each other, where every person that has ever existed DIED!!

A: Through learning that you share the potential to maintain a still mind, and in that stillness you find an unshakeable peace and joy for the living experience. The reward is life itself assuming freedom from ego.

Q:What 's the big deal with this man called Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of the Living God? Promising eternal life to those who hear him???

A: In 1945, some authentically ancient documents where found. One of those Documents has been called the Gospel of Thomas. interestingly, it's not acknowledged by the mainstream Christian religion(s). The Gospel of Thomas contains 114 sayings attributed to a man called Jesus. in this Gospel you aren't presented with any mysticism. It's more a dialogue on spirituality, and an insightful one at that. Mysticism leads to a requirement of faith unless you have the good fortune to witness the mystical event. Faith (think suicide bomber) can be easily abused. After reading the Gospel of Thomas I feel confident that the mysticism is not Jesus. in the Gospel of Thomas it's not about eternal life, just living a good life, in my opinion.

59..Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."

An obvious truth, perhaps. Spirituality is a living experience and truth.

All you've done is substitute one undefined unprovable term for another. As to enemies, I don't believe I've heard anyone asking that question around here. If you want to converse with us, please don't find faults with things we never said in the first place, it is rude and a logical error called straw man.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Why will God not take revenge upon my enemies?He will, it even says so in the Bible.

What are my rewards in a world full of injustice, hatred for each other, where every person that has ever existed DIED!!Died and either went to heaven or hell, if you go to heaven, you have many many rewards probably. Going to hell is another story.

What 's the big deal with this man called Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of the Living God? Promising eternal life to those who hear him???Well, he did a few cool things like turning water to wine, feeding the five thousand, walking on water, raising Lazarus from the dead, healing the blind, healing leprosy, healing the crippled (all three of which simply by a touch) and oh ya, he rose from the dead 3 days after he was crucified.

You say here that it is written in the Bible that God will take revenge on SOI's enemies. I am curious about where it says this. I was unaware that those who wrote the Bible knew who SOI's enemies would be, or even who SOI is, especially since SOI wasn't born until millenia after the books of the Bible were written.

Died and either went to heaven or hell, if you go to heaven, you have many many rewards probably. Going to hell is another story.

"Heaven" as told in the Bible is a place physically above the clouds and sky dome where YHWH can look down at us and we appear as grasshoppers. So, how high can you be so that humans appear the size of grasshoppers? I've been there, and there is no "Heaven" or God. Neither Heaven or Hell exist.

Well, he did a few cool things like turning water to wine, feeding the five thousand, walking on water, raising Lazarus from the dead, healing the blind, healing leprosy, healing the crippled (all three of which simply by a touch) and oh ya, he rose from the dead 3 days after he was crucified.

Too bad Lazerus or that girl that were raise from the dead had nothing to say about that. Or anyone else. After all, bringing back someone from the dead just happens every single day, for something such a common occurance... that explains why no one said anything about that but the one telling the story. Too bad none of his miracles left anything that could be verified. Heck, for being a carpenter till he was thirty, you would think that he might have build a chair or table or something... yet, there isn't even one single thing. You have King Soloman's Temple, but that house that Jesus built? Craftmanship and perfection rolled into one? Just like the man as advertised in the bible, never existed.

I could go on and on, like a Hebrew god naming his son after the king of the Greek gods - Iesous... but hey, they were written in Greek aimed at a Greek audience. It's even more telling when Jesus is spoken in Spanish - Hey, Zeus! Yup, there's a whole lot more out there if you go looking for it.

Why didn't God ever reveal himself? Because he thinks he is the master of hide and seek

Why will God not take revenge upon my enemies? God does not work for you

What are my rewards in a world full of injustice, hatred for each other, where every person that has ever existed DIED!! You only get rewards for doing something good if it is work from god if he wants to bring you into Heaven

What 's the big deal with this man called Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of the Living God? Promising eternal life to those who hear him??? Jesus just loves you (apparently) I don't know why. Maybe he wants to give humanity a 'second chance'.

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"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."-Thomas Szasz

A: Forgiveness is the cornerstone of finding peace when feeling an injustice has been done. It's a gift to yourself as well as an example for the offending person.

Q:What are my rewards in a world full of injustice, hatred for each other, where every person that has ever existed DIED!!

A: Through learning that you share the potential to maintain a still mind, and in that stillness you find an unshakeable peace and joy for the living experience. The reward is life itself assuming freedom from ego.

Q:What 's the big deal with this man called Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of the Living God? Promising eternal life to those who hear him???

A: In 1945, some authentically ancient documents where found. One of those Documents has been called the Gospel of Thomas. interestingly, it's not acknowledged by the mainstream Christian religion(s). The Gospel of Thomas contains 114 sayings attributed to a man called Jesus. in this Gospel you aren't presented with any mysticism. It's more a dialogue on spirituality, and an insightful one at that. Mysticism leads to a requirement of faith unless you have the good fortune to witness the mystical event. Faith (think suicide bomber) can be easily abused. After reading the Gospel of Thomas I feel confident that the mysticism is not Jesus. in the Gospel of Thomas it's not about eternal life, just living a good life, in my opinion.

59..Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."

An obvious truth, perhaps. Spirituality is a living experience and truth.

All you've done is substitute one undefined unprovable term for another. As to enemies, I don't believe I've heard anyone asking that question around here. If you want to converse with us, please don't find faults with things we never said in the first place, it is rude and a logical error called straw man.

I think you're off beam here. I was responding to the original question , which included the "enemies' question. Yo own me an apology for the rude comment, perhaps :-)

The nature of the spirituality proposition, like string theory, is abstract and still remains theoretical. Yet both hold the potential of unification.

My explanations, only offer a theory. the proof will be in an individuals experience of that theory. Peace :-)

All you've done is substitute one undefined unprovable term for another. As to enemies, I don't believe I've heard anyone asking that question around here. If you want to converse with us, please don't find faults with things we never said in the first place, it is rude and a logical error called straw man.

I think you're off beam here. I was responding to the original question , which included the "enemies' question. Yo own me an apology for the rude comment, perhaps :-)

The nature of the spirituality proposition, like string theory, is abstract and still remains theoretical. Yet both hold the potential of unification.

My explanations, only offer a theory. the proof will be in an individuals experience of that theory. Peace :-)

On the portion of enemies, I do stand corrected. My apologies. I didn't go back far enough, and SOI, well, didn't seem to be quite representative of the regulars here.

But as to the other part, do I still hold that you've taken one ill defined unprovable term and substituted another. A theory, to have any weight, still had to have some evidence and definitions; "spirituality" has neither.

If you have some, be my guest as to providing them.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.