Kosher Australia's sub-standard Kashrus - KAM does not insist on full time Kosher supervisor at meat restaurants owned & operated by non ShShabbos

Halacha requires the Mashgiach alone has the keys to the store, or the refrigerators and freezers. In short there must be a guarantee that cheaper, indistinguishable non-Kosher cheese or meat has not been substituted.

Rabbi Rosenberg the 'father' of Kosher certification in the USA, quoted by Reb Moshe Feinstein.

There is no Hetter - non-Kosher meat, fish and cheese present opportunities to make enormous profit. They can be very easily substituted, they are far cheaper and indistinguishable from the Kosher product; Kosher certifiers must employ robust systems that prevent such substitutions.

Halacha does not differentiate between a Jewish proprietor and a non-Shomer Shabbos Jewish proprietor. On the contrary a Jewish non-Shomer Shabbos is deemed to be a greater risk.

full time supervision is a non-negotiable requirement

﻿Halacha does not differentiate between a Jewish proprietor and a non-Shomer Shabbos Jewish proprietor. On the contrary a Jewish non-Shomer Shabbos is deemed to be a greater risk

no security service relies upon this type of surveillance for these type of vulnerabilities and risks. A camera might be good enough to observe and prevent an unscheduled truck delivery but would never suffice to deter bringing in a 10 kg bag of meat, fish or cheese

and if by some miracle the Mashgiach's timing is just right - what will he see? Will those sneaking in the contraband be so stupid as to bring it into the Kosher premises in its original 'Coles' branded wrapping?

Poskim have permitted this for Chalav Yisrael exclusively, no Posek permits remote surveillance as practiced by KA Melbourne

transcriptThere is no question that the ideal situation when it comes to a Fleishig [meat] restaurant or even a Cholov Yisroel [super Kosher dairy] restaurant is to have a full time Hashgocha. If not a full time Mashgiach there then at least we should have somebody who is a Shomer Shabbos [An observant Jew] who is there full time and is able to do what is necessary in order to ensure that it does not become Basar SheNisAlem Min HaAyin [meat that has not been carefully monitored and observed by a Yid]

A number of years ago at the AKO conference that we attended[AKO - Association of Kashrus Organisations ...]they have a standards committee and the standards committee were discussing about this concept of having Hashgocha, a full time Hashgoacha, Hashgocha Temidis, and everybody agreed that it is obvious that we should have full time Hashgocha in such circumstances; that is what the Shulchan Aruch calls for in the first instance and that is what we should do.[MGR - This is not correct - full time supervision is a non-negotiable requirement]

A number of the smaller organisations and indeed some of the more Charedishe [religious] organisations had an objection to it - because the full time Hashgocha was a full time independent Mashgiach. Many of the Charedishe organisations rely on the BaAl Habos [the proprietor] who is a Frum [religious] one of theirs, who is a Frum Yid with a Bord [beard] und Peyos [sidelocks] and they say that he is good enough as far as Halacha is concerned, he is good enough to be able to fill that role.

Other organisations, smaller organisations, outside of NY and the main cities said that it is impossible for us to able to get full time Mashgichim, Poshut to get the staff, and also its impossible for the type of volume of trade that many of these places have outside of the major communities its impossible for them to be able to afford to have another wage of a person who is just sitting there and is organising the Kashrus and being a Mashgiach.

So therefore they resisted this idea of having the basic standard of everybody having a full time Mashgiach from morning till night as being the standard of AKO, and they came up with various other ways of .. in a sense of getting around it.

KAM [KA Melbourne] has a system whereby we have Mashgichim who go in to do the things a Mashgiach has to do - checking the lettuce [for insects] checking if Challah has to be taken, turning on the stoves or the ovens and so on, in order to ensure that there is no Bishul Akum problems; but when it comes to full time ... we do rely in certain circumstances on Hetteirim. [MGR - This is wrong - full time supervision is a non-negotiable Halachic requirement, there are Hetteirim in this matter]

With a non-Jewish proprietor we never allow that to ... with a non Jewish proprietor, our caterers, we have very few non-Jewish proprietors for restaurants and so on, but for caterers and so on, they have to have a Mashgiach right from the beginning of opening the kitchen unlocking the kitchen and closing it again in the evening; and we have with them full time Hasgocha; we cant really see a way to get around it. [Halacha does not differentiate between a Jewish proprietor and a non-Shomer Shabbos Jewish proprietor. On the contrary a Jewish non-Shomer Shabbos is deemed to be a greater risk]

When we have Jewish people, apart from the fact that we have those Mashgichim who go in and do those important jobs that have to be done by a Shomer Shabbos person we do, as well as many of the other AKO smaller VaAdim .. do .. is to have a system which we Halachically can justify as being in place of having a full time Mashgiach. [yet Rabbi Gutnick has failed to provide any such Halachic foundation, nor has AKO (who Rabbi Gutnick seems to be relying upon) published any such justification. AKO in extended correspondence, has refused to discuss, explain or provide Halachic references]And sometimes those systems are better even than a full time Mashgiach a full time Mashgiach who is sitting there ... I was in a restaurant in NY at one stage and I asked specifically for the Mashgiach and they pointed me to a fellow who was sitting up the front on a bench, and he was taking a Sefer, and he was learning a Sefer, and he was ... he looked very good you know but when I asked them in the kitchen, I said, "and how often does he come in?" they said, "Ohh a few times a day he comes in." [we must wonder why Rabbi Gutnick did not ask the Mashgiach the same (and other) questions and why Rabbi Gutnick trusts the kitchen staff more than the Mashgiach]But that is a full time Mashgiach - and so therefore ... I'm not going to .. I wont name the Kashrus organisation

But it's sometimes people who say that they have a full time Mashgiach .. does not necessarily mean that full time Mashgiach it is going to be better ... that setting up another system whereby you have greater control.

We use such things as Yotze VeNichness [random intermittent inspections] we do use at times a Yotze VeNichness [random intermittent inspections] we do use such things - if you go into our restaurants you will see that most of them, not all of them - have security cameras and we use ... we monitor the place. At any time Yankel has on his phone any of these places that we can open up at any time and monitor them and see exactly what's going on in the areas that need to be monitored, in the kitchen and in those areas, so we do rely on that. [no security service relies upon this type of surveillance for these type of vulnerabilities and risks. A camera might be good enough to observe and prevent an unscheduled truck delivery but would never suffice to deter bringing in a 10 kg bag of meat, fish or cheese]

In Eretz Yisroel [Israel] they rely on that a lot for Chalav Yisrael and it is becoming more and more popular. [Poskim have permitted this for Chalav Yisrael exclusively, no Posek permits remote surveillance as Rabbi Gutnick is proposing]

But it is not foolproof because as we know anybody who has seen a good spy movie or read a spy novel will know how you can put in loops into cameras in order to have the same thing being shown over and over again and in the meantime who knows what's going on otherwise.

But we do make sure - obviously - that the cameras are operating correctly and properly and we rely on that.

We rely sometimes on a Mashgiach who will have a number of different places to go to, so at any time he can come in. Its not just a Yotze VeNichness [random intermittent inspections] coming in once or twice a day but actually does the circuits and comes in. [and if by some miracle the Mashgiach's timing is just right - what will he see? Will those sneaking in the contraband be so stupid as to bring it into the Kosher premises in its original 'Coles' branded wrapping?]We have a number of Yotze VeNichness [random intermittent inspections] that go in ... and we have set up a system in conjunction with AKO standards that we believe is considered as suitable in the circumstances to be able to say that we have a proper Hashgocha over these Fleishige and Milchige restaurants.

If you have a Rov [rabbi] if you personally have your Rov, and you go into a particular place and you see that there is not a full time Shomer Shabbos [religiously observant Jew] present - and you go to your Rov and you say, "Listen KAM has their Hetteirm and so on, can I rely on them?" You have the perfect right to turn around and say that if my Rov says "No. That a person like you should have a full time Mashgiach otherwise don't use that premises." you have a perfect right to say, "OK I wont use those premises." But you don't have the right to turn around and say that

I will reiterate what we spoke about over the phone before. The OU long standing food service policy is to have a Mashgiach temidi in all food service establishments, whether meat or dairy. The Mashgiach is the only one with the keys to the store, or the refrigerators and freezers. In many places we have a gas cut off that gets locked when the Mashgiach leaves and the Mashgiach is the only one with the keys. We have a combination locked box with the keys outside the kitchen for emergencies. The owner of the store whether shommer Shabbos or not does not have keys.additionally, the Mashgiach may have other non-kashrus related responsibilities in certain cases as long as his other duties do not conflict with his hashgacha duties.Thank youRabbi Yermia Indich+++++From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi [mailto:meirabi@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 12:30 PMTo: Indich, YermiaSubject: our discussion

Rabbi IndichI thank you for your time and assistance.here is the clip August 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkXgfUnM67win a discussion I had the other week with Moshe Schreck [he is on the video introducing the question] he mentioned you by name [I do not know if he meant in a direct conversation with you or if you were discussing in a group] as saying that having a Shomer Shabbos worker on hand is adequate. [I think he did not say this was OU policy]the situation in Melbourne has restaurants certified as Kosher that are owned and operated by non-Sh-Shabbos, do not have a Mashgiach Temidi, nor any system whereby the foods entering the shop can be monitored and verified.

Meir G. Rabi

because my Rov said that I can't use it therefore it is not considered acceptable, because you have not asked your Rov that Shaila [question].And if you ask your Rov that particular Shaila, it could very well be that he will say in the circumstances as KAM is operating under, that it is perfectly acceptable for the Hamon Am [hoi polloi] people who are not necessarily Machmir [stringent] and people who are not necessarily ... have all the Chumros [stringencies] it is perfectly acceptable.

And even if your Rov says, "well, it is not [acceptable], because he himself would like to see a full time Mashgiach everywhere - call us up; talk to other Rabbanim; talk to the Rabbanim who are .. who have introduced that particular standard and ask them, can they explain please what is going on.

I am not going to into all the Lomdishe [ritual law] detail, we don't have the time for it otherwise we'll be ... that'a a lecture on its own.

But you can rest assured that any place that we have ... that needs proper Hashgocha, in accordance with the Din in accordance with a reliable Pesak [Halachic ruling] is indeed have .. does indeed have that particular Hashgocha.

And we have no hesitation in saying that we have fulfilled the requirements that are necessary in order that we know what is going on and that we know that what is going on is indeed in accordance with acceptable Halacha.