Wednesday, 14 July 2010

Webb, cheating and a very sour taste

Overall I enjoyed a lot of the world cup, there was some very decent football and some good entertainment all round. However the final was symptomatic of the deep malaise in the modern game and of a tournament tarnished by a lot of diving, cheating and gamesmanship.

The tabloid and general media reaction to the final was poor and far from objective. No doubt Spain have the better bunch of players, however Holland were their match for a lot of the game and were done in the end by some despicable cheating from Spain and some very poor officiating from Webb.

The Dutch were unfairly portrayed as thugs in order to conveniently ignore the routine Spanish diving and feigning of injury. De Jong's tackle in the first half was no worse than Puyol's, as many Spanish players as Dutch players were lucky to stay on the field.

Some of the play acting from Iniesta and Villa in particular was beneath contempt. Iniesta should never have been on the pitch when he scored the winner, he had been guilty of at least four blatant dives and one clear kick out off the ball which ref Webb chose to ignore for no good reason. Heitinga's first booking came from Villa's pathetic theatrics and double pike dive, his second yellow came from Iniesta's fondness of gravity. Webb lost control of the game in the second half and started rewarding the Spanish diving, this was the beginning of the end of the game as a footballing contest.

Spain reminded me of Barcelona, happy to foul at one end but so keen to go to ground when the boot was on the other foot that it reduced the game to a joke. Iniesta may be a great player, but he is also a despicable cheat, routinely and quite deliberately acting in order to get his fellow player sent off. I used to like Spain for the way they play the game, now I can no longer stand to watch the routine cheating that has become so integral to the way in which they play. Spain may have won the World cup but they have lost the respect of many neutrals for the gamesmanship that they exhibited in the final.

47 comments:

What a load of shite. No wonder the English national team is so poor with morons like you who don't understand the game. You'd have thought an Arsenal fan like you would appreciate how thuggery can unfairly overcome technical skill.You need to raise your game mate.£1,300 for a season ticket to sit amongst cunts like you. Que te den por culo cabron.

Webb was on a hiding to nothing, Holland should have been down to 9 men by half time, teams like Stoke,Blackburn dished out the same to us and you're defending the Dutch, their only intend for the final was to rough up Spain, even Cruyff was ashamed, Van Bommell should have been sent off long time ago, how he got away with his thuggery was beyond me, RvP up front on his own with Robben doing all he could to steal the lime-light, no wonder RvP was pissed off at the end because this was anti football something he is not comfortable with

"..no time for losers, coz we are the champions... of the worlddddddd!"I'd rather accept the opinion of someone like Cruyff than of chumps like you. My God, English football is so backward. You can't be Londoners, surely. You must be from the provinces or somewhere like Harlow. "Con Iniesta, Espanya esta de fiesta; Con Iniesta, Espanya esta de fiesta!"

somehow I feel that Highbury's small pitch suited Arsenal's counter attacking play. Henry, Pires, Ljungberg, Cole, Vieira, even Bergkamp could move from one end of the pitch to the other in such a short time. After Arsenal moved to the Emirates, the pitch was bigger, and nowadays Arsenal's counter attack is not as swift anymore.

I find specially despicable that such a good bunch of players, that have a lot of football to show, keep using diving, cheating and acting as an essential part of their strategy. And it goes beyond the final game, or De Jong now famous tackle, it was Spain showed the entire tournament. They are an excellent team, and may be the best in the world, but as you said the totally lost my respect.

Thank you 1979gooner for writing so clearly what has been in my mind the whole week.

This just reeks of the bitterness that most Arsenal fans now feel towards Barca and therefore Spain. Holland were lucky to not have more players sent off and, while certain players may have over reacted to some tackles (something both Arsenal and Hollans players will also do), it is absolutely absurd to compare de Jong's tackle to anything Puyol did. And at no point did he "rugby tackle" Robben, their legs tangled chasing the ball. Webb made a few mistakes but over 120 minutes of a game like that there is not a ref alive who could get every single call 100% right. The right team won, stop whinging about it just because that team happens to be full of very good players from a very good Barcelona side.

What an extraordinarily stupid blog. I'm shaking my head in absolute disbelief after reading this piece of one-eyed, uninformed nonsense.

Once again, an English blogger/pundit reserves his moral outrage over diving far more than reckless and deliberate violence.

Anyone watching Holland (objectively) in this tournament knew they'd been getting away with a number of horrific tackles & blatant provocation scot free. It was common for pundits to wonder how van Bommel hadn't yet been booked.

Against Denmark, de Jong nearly broke a Danish player's leg, hobbling him for the rest of the game. He is now injured for months. No booking.

Against Uruguay, amidst all the praise over von Bronkhorst's volley, only a few pundits and bloggers saw the shockingly brutal and intentional von Bommel tackle against Gargano (a very small player) just before that goal.

The ball was played infield by Kuyt on the right and it was a risky pass, a 50-50 between van Bommel and Gargano. Knowing that Sneijder was behind him, MVB decided to dummy the ball and take out the Uruguayan, so he ran past the ball and crunched the studs of his left boot into Gargano’s left leg at mid-shin height.

It was a leg-breaking challenge and the only reason that assault did not break Gargano’s leg was that, as the replay showed, his weight was not on his left foot because he was just putting that foot down on the ground. His leg buckled but he got up quickly and bravely.

Then there was yet another intentionally vicious tackle by MVB in the same Uruguay game:

http: // www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUQftFZKu6U

What the Dutch did in this tournament and in the final was to deliberately go out on the pitch to provoke, foul, get oppnonents sent off and create an ill-spirited match resulting only in anger and bitterness. It worked with Brazil. Early in the 1st half of that game, MVB elbowed Fabiano in the head badly, Fabiano kicked him in retaliation - just one of a series of deliberate violent fouls in that game in which the Dutch successfully provoked Brazil and got them rattled, making them lose their composure, causing them to retaliate and act just as badly.

And the Dutch CONSTANTLY DIVED AND PLAYACTED AND WAVED CARDS TO THE REF throughout, SURROUNDING THE REF IN EVERY GAME - something you think only the Spanish did.

The de jong karate kick on Alonso almost broke Alonso's ribs and was an absolutely ROUTINE example of the kind of brutality dished out by the Dutch in this tournament.

Howard Webb was faced with an impossible situation. He was EXTREMELY GENEROUS to Holland, who should've been 9, maybe 8 men down. Spain should've been 10 men down.

What people like you don't get is that there are teams that deliberately go out to foul, provoke, injure, get opponents sent off and create an ill-tempered game. That's what Holland did in every single one of their games.

And there are teams that RESPOND and RETALIATE to those tactics. That's what Spain did in the final.

In the final's first 20 mins, Spain were NOT fouling nor playacting, they were in fact PLAYING FOOTBALL. They then RESPONDED to Holland's tactics. If you watched Spain's games v. Chile, Paraguay and Switzerland, they did not behave as badly as they did against Holland. They were not ill-tempered games with constant diving. Whereas the same bitterness resulted in all of Holland's games.

That's because -- while those opponents set out to frustrate Spain -- they did not set out to provoke and foul recklessly with brute force. Holland's deliberate gameplan of cynical gamesmanship and brutality throughout this tournament was a disgusting spectacle to watch for someone like me who's admired Holland for so many yrs and loves so many of their players.

In the 2006 and esp. the 2010 world cups, Holland went out with the intention of kicking, hacking, fouling and provoking their way thru the tournament (tho not in the 08 Euros).

In 2010, Holland committed the most fouls - 126. While Spain were the most fouled against (134). Iniesta was the most fouled player and got very little protection, I don't blame him for diving AT ALL, esp. after being deliberately stamped on and hacked down by von Bommel.

Apparently you are so blinkered by your anger at Barca (and by extension, Spain) because of the Cesc shenanigans that you can't see straight. I'm a gooner, I'm fed up with Barca's antics re Cesc too. But I will never ever view simulation and playacting as more reprehensible than deliberate, calculated thuggery and provocation--the deliberate intention of creating an ill-spirited game.

The Dutch reaction to Webb and to the Spanish in this game is pathetic, classless and delusional. Moaning about an incorrect non-award of a corner after a goal is scored some time later really is pathetic. There was a goal kick. Plenty of time to get in position and defend the next situation. The corner decision had no real bearing on the goal. Just about sums this Dutch team up.

And to listen to Dutch supporters complain about Spanish diving or waving of yellow cards and "cheating" really is too much. The hypocrisy beggars belief.

Thank the football gods that Webb didn’t allow the Dutch gameplan to work. They should’ve been down to 9 or 8 men. They should’ve been down to 10 men early in the Brazil game. They should’ve been down to 9 men in the game v. Uruguay. They should’ve been down to 10 men midway v. Denmark.

Here are at least 3 recent world cup games ending in acrimony, tons of bookings and red cards, brutal tackles, anger and bitterness:

2006: Portugal-Holland2010: Brazil-Holland2010: Spain-Holland

There's only 1 common denominator. None of the other teams were saints and deserve strong criticism for their response to Holland's tactics. But their response would not have existed if not faced with Holland's cynicsm and thuggery.

I'm not from England, Holland, or Spain. I say this: Holland played a hard game, even rough at times. Red card was correct. BUT Spain? Mostly a bunch of Barcelona players skilled in the dramatics - diving, falling like leaves, crying like babies, and thuggery (puyol is chief amongst them) - to the point that it was so disgusting as well. Shit final. Holland could even have won it if not for Webb!

Amazing the hypocrisy on this article and thread - gooners, of all people, defending a team that set out out to kick an opponent off the park. When our players react to that treatment, they're accused of being pansies and divers and playactors too.

This is obviously a diving vs. thuggery conversation, and what sticks out to me is that diving/conning the ref is very much a part of football. Spain dive, The Netherlands dive, England dive, Japan dive, Barcelona dive, Arsenal dive (Eboue, anyone?), Stoke City dive, Celtic dive, Lyon dive etc. Every team in the world is guilty of play-acting. It is just how the game is progressing. Do I approve of these actions? Of course not, but to try and blame one team of being divers or cheaters and not blame the other is short-sighted at best.

What every team does NOT do is try to kick the living daylights out of the other team. Comparing diving to thuggery is ridiculous. Diving is far less egregious than cynical fouling. To say they are the same is like saying that both lying and assault should warrant the same prison sentence.

I hated Iniesta on Sunday when he went down easier than Paris Hilton on a Friday night, but I can't say that it is worse than De Jong playing out his professional wrestling fantasies on Xabi Alonso's chest.

Last thing: please don't stoop to insulting the blogger or each other on this site. This is a forum which allows us to state our opinions, not a place to lob grenades from the safety of our desks.

agree thoroughly with the last poster, some people seem to disagree, fine, i have no prob with that but please refrain from comments like telling me to f*ck off and other infantile insults,

marcus,

i know what MVB did in the tournament but he didn't do anything that nasty in the final, there were many awful tackles from many other sides, Holland weren't that bad as a whole, agree that MVB should have been sent off in earlier games though,

De Jong's high studs was nowhere near as bad as it looked, we've all seen those accidental high feet and it was nowhere near as malicious as Puyol's leg breaker in the first half,

i repeat, Puyol's leg breaker in the first half was as bad as anything Holland did, Spain were just as cynical as Holland in many ways, however their players were not diving around as Spain's were, that was the big difference,

Van persie was chopped several times but never did he roll around or try to get a player booked, the Dutch players were far more honest,

it's not good enough to say all teams dive, this kind of relativistic nonsense means that no logical argument is possible, Spain were pretty poor all the way through in feigning injury and diving,

Spain also have their hatchet men, Ramos/Puyol/Buskets/Campdevilla are all very capable of mixing it up with the nastiest of them and did throughout the tournament, they are just better at getting away with it and the opposition are not as good at cheating as Spain are,

overall I agree with some of the comment but generally to paint Holland as thugs and Spain as saints is complete and utter rot, Spain are just very good at exploiting the rules of the game and can be as cynical/dirty as anyone,

video technology is badly needed as it is too hard for refs to keep up with events, it is too hard to spot the cheating and diving, it would definitely cut out a good percentage of the bad decisions,

my point is that in the final Spain got rather lucky with a lot of the big decisions, they had the rub of the green, I'm not saying Holland are saints either, but they were a tad unlucky

finally to the person who compares Holland to Stoke, what utter rot, Stoke were fine on that day, it was a very bad tackle from Shawcross but other than that there was hardly a bad tackle all game, lame example i think

i don't want to see thugs prosper but i also don't want to see a non contact sport in which cheating little bastards like Iniesta prosper

agree thoroughly with the last poster, some people seem to disagree, fine, i have no prob with that but please refrain from comments like telling me to f*ck off and other infantile insults,

marcus,

i know what MVB did in the tournament but he didn't do anything that nasty in the final, there were many awful tackles from many other sides, Holland weren't that bad as a whole, agree that MVB should have been sent off in earlier games though,

De Jong's high studs was nowhere near as bad as it looked, we've all seen those accidental high feet and it was nowhere near as malicious as Puyol's leg breaker in the first half,

i repeat, Puyol's leg breaker in the first half was as bad as anything Holland did, Spain were just as cynical as Holland in many ways, however their players were not diving around as Spain's were, that was the big difference,

Van persie was chopped several times but never did he roll around or try to get a player booked, the Dutch players were far more honest,

it's not good enough to say all teams dive, this kind of relativistic nonsense means that no logical argument is possible, Spain were pretty poor all the way through in feigning injury and diving,

Spain also have their hatchet men, Ramos/Puyol/Buskets/Campdevilla are all very capable of mixing it up with the nastiest of them and did throughout the tournament, they are just better at getting away with it and the opposition are not as good at cheating as Spain are,

overall I agree with some of the comment but generally to paint Holland as thugs and Spain as saints is complete and utter rot, Spain are just very good at exploiting the rules of the game and can be as cynical/dirty as anyone,

video technology is badly needed as it is too hard for refs to keep up with events, it is too hard to spot the cheating and diving, it would definitely cut out a good percentage of the bad decisions,

my point is that in the final Spain got rather lucky with a lot of the big decisions, they had the rub of the green, I'm not saying Holland are saints either, but they were a tad unlucky

finally to the person who compares Holland to Stoke, what utter rot, Stoke were fine on that day, it was a very bad tackle from Shawcross but other than that there was hardly a bad tackle all game, lame example i think

i don't want to see thugs prosper but i also don't want to see a non contact sport in which cheating little bastards like Iniesta prosper

agree thoroughly with the last poster, some people seem to disagree, fine, i have no prob with that but please refrain from comments like telling me to f*ck off and other infantile insults,

marcus,

i know what MVB did in the tournament but he didn't do anything that nasty in the final, there were many awful tackles from many other sides, Holland weren't that bad as a whole, agree that MVB should have been sent off in earlier games though,

De Jong's high studs was nowhere near as bad as it looked, we've all seen those accidental high feet and it was nowhere near as malicious as Puyol's leg breaker in the first half,

i repeat, Puyol's leg breaker in the first half was as bad as anything Holland did, Spain were just as cynical as Holland in many ways, however their players were not diving around as Spain's were, that was the big difference,

Van persie was chopped several times but never did he roll around or try to get a player booked, the Dutch players were far more honest,

it's not good enough to say all teams dive, this kind of relativistic nonsense means that no logical argument is possible, Spain were pretty poor all the way through in feigning injury and diving,

Spain also have their hatchet men, Ramos/Puyol/Buskets/Campdevilla are all very capable of mixing it up with the nastiest of them and did throughout the tournament, they are just better at getting away with it and the opposition are not as good at cheating as Spain are,

overall I agree with some of the comment but generally to paint Holland as thugs and Spain as saints is complete and utter rot, Spain are just very good at exploiting the rules of the game and can be as cynical/dirty as anyone,

video technology is badly needed as it is too hard for refs to keep up with events, it is too hard to spot the cheating and diving, it would definitely cut out a good percentage of the bad decisions,

my point is that in the final Spain got rather lucky with a lot of the big decisions, they had the rub of the green, I'm not saying Holland are saints either, but they were a tad unlucky

finally to the person who compares Holland to Stoke, what utter rot, Stoke were fine on that day, it was a very bad tackle from Shawcross but other than that there was hardly a bad tackle all game, lame example i think

i don't want to see thugs prosper but i also don't want to see a non contact sport in which cheating little bastards like Iniesta prosper

As a Spanish Gooner I despair at the hypocrisy of my fellow fans. Clearly you don't buy into the philosophy of the passing game. There was only one team playing football or interested in playing football. It's clear that you are jealous of the Spanish victory. The irony, though, is that you are really traitors to your country. By weakening the footballing brain gene pool and emphasising old fashioned brawn over technical prowess, you are collectively holding back England. Gillipollas todos.

I'm not going to say the Dutch were innocent, or that Arjen Robben didn't lose the World Cup for his team by acting like the pre-2009 Kobe Bryant.

But Spain -- essentially, FC Barcelona + Casillas + Cesc -- were a bunch of dirty bastards who didn't even deserve to be in the tournament. They are ugly. Their football is ugly. Their morals are ugly. Their hair is really ugly. Seriously, Puyol, I know your country was liberated in 1975, but that's no excuse of having Disco hair in 2010.

It's all ugly, except their WAGs. Cesc and Casillas have good taste, but that could be because neither one of them is Barca -- one never will be, the other won't be until August 2015 at the earliest, and even then...

There is not one person associated with Barcelona that I can respect, and that includes one of my former heroes in this game, Johan Cruijff. Of course, I can say that because...

Thierry Henry is no longer with them. And his first home game will be on July 22 against... The Scum! Oh my goodness, that is going to be so much fun!

1979 gooner - You claim to have no vested interest in the final yet your previous article is essentially jealousy/hatred towards Barcelona, the majority of whom make up that Spanish side. I'm sorry but you are either in denial or completely ignorant if you believe yourself to be 'neutral' in this final.

You knock Iniesta, claiming he should have been sent of for kicking a ball away yet ignore the fact that Robben got away with the exact same crime minutes later.

You claim that De Jong's challenge was not that bad which is absolutely bonkers. While I believe it wasn't in any way malicious, the man's studs went into Alonso's chest, rather close to his neck and head. The same happens to Cesc or any Arsenal player next season, I would be absolutely scunnered if you didn't absolutely lose the rag and claim that the offending player is a disgrace/should be banned for 10 games etc.

Your refusal to condemn the dutch who were clearly pretty dirty and, at best, put in some dangererous or over-enthusiastic tackles is odd. After all, Shawcross' tackle was condemned as terrible, mis-timed, over-enthusiastic. Why doesn't the same apply when it doesn't happen to an Arsenal player? He didn't set out to 'do' Ramsey but put in a mis-timed and at worst, wreckless challenge, condemned by virtually every Arsenal fan, yet you are happy to let De Jong away with the same (and in my opinion a far worse and more dangerous 'tackle').

Did you happen to see Van Persie's rather horiffic rake of the studs down a Slovakian's shin in the last 16 game? Nothing came of it so it has been brushed under the rug. I just wish sometimes that Arsenal fans would look at incidents like this and realise that players can mis-time a challenge - easily. The lad limped off, probably lucky not to have suffered a pretty serious injury. So accidents can happen. I would be raging if a player from my club suffered a serious injury but sometimes, some perspective has to be shown.

As for the diving, Manu Eboue, Eduardo etc. While many can appreciate Arsenal's style of play, please don't pat yourself on the back so much

Dave

PS. Nothing personal but I kind of wanna see Cesc go to Barca just to see how you will react

1979 gooner - You claim to have no vested interest in the final yet your previous article is essentially jealousy/hatred towards Barcelona, the majority of whom make up that Spanish side. I'm sorry but you are either in denial or completely ignorant if you believe yourself to be 'neutral' in this final.

You knock Iniesta, claiming he should have been sent of for kicking a ball away yet ignore the fact that Robben got away with the exact same crime minutes later.

You claim that De Jong's challenge was not that bad which is absolutely bonkers. While I believe it wasn't in any way malicious, the man's studs went into Alonso's chest, rather close to his neck and head. The same happens to Cesc or any Arsenal player next season, I would be absolutely scunnered if you didn't absolutely lose the rag and claim that the offending player is a disgrace/should be banned for 10 games etc.

Your refusal to condemn the dutch who were clearly pretty dirty and, at best, put in some dangererous or over-enthusiastic tackles is odd. After all, Shawcross' tackle was condemned as terrible, mis-timed, over-enthusiastic. Why doesn't the same apply when it doesn't happen to an Arsenal player? He didn't set out to 'do' Ramsey but put in a mis-timed and at worst, wreckless challenge, condemned by virtually every Arsenal fan, yet you are happy to let De Jong away with the same (and in my opinion a far worse and more dangerous 'tackle').

Incidently, looking back, you were one of very few who didn't condemn Shawcross' challenge, fair play to you on that one, my points from before still stand for other Arsenal fans happy to have a right go when it happens to a gooner but is nowhere to be seen when it is dished out by an Arsenal player

While I'll apologise for mis-reading your views on iniesta, your insistance that I am hypocrticial is a joke. Mate, you're lucky that this site is visited 90% by Arsenal fans, as stated before, it is utterly ridiculous for you to claim that you are unbiased here, you arean't it is clear as day, have a look at yourself and at your previous rantings because Barca are after Cesc. You have clearly got it in for Spain/Barcelona.

As for De Jong's tackle, I said to you I didn't believe it was malicious but that still doesn't mean he didn't kick the man straight in the chest. To call it wild would be doing it a dis-service, if that boot catches Alonso in the throat, you could be looking at some serious damage. Again I state, if that happens to an Arsenal player, I cannot believe you would say it was without malice and wasn't that bad.

As for Puyol's tackle, in all honesty I don't even remember it, I'd be happy to condemn it if you can find me some footage of it.

As for mine and most people's condemnation of the dutch tactics. Well let's look at the statistics. 126 - fouls committed throughout the tournament, beating their nearest rivals Uruguay by a full 27 fouls. Most Cards - Holland - 22 yellow cards, 1 red card, 9 more yellows than anyone else.

While I'll give you that Spain players often went down very easily, as previously stated, Arsenal have form for that, as do most sides, it happens and in all honesty I cannot see why you condemn the Spanish side (other than the fact that they won the tournament) ahead of other countries, pretty much every one of whom had players guilty of the same thing.

I left a comment after my first one stating that I went back and read your thoughts on Shawcross and that they were surprisingly well put (Sorry, not a regular reader) and that I praise you for your level headed-ness on the sunject. However, my words still apply to the majority who have had such a hypocritical attitude to tackling since that incident.

Incidently, how are these tackles different? De Jong's was far more dangerous, if his boot connects with Alonso's neck or face you are looking at a horrific injury, i'm still not saying there was any malice in it but it shouldn't be ignored just because no serious injury comes from it, too many gooners are taking that attitude.

Also, I have no interest in Spain, i think their football is tedious and a little too intricate. My reason for defending them is purely because your condemnation is massively inbalanced.

A few things you've happily ignored that I'd love your opinion on:

1) Diving, the Spanish did it, as have virtually every country at this tournament, won't you condemn them all? Why do you not condemn Arsenal for diving - Eboue, Eduardo - you can't surely deny you don't have form in it.

2) Bad challenges, You didn't give your opinion on Van Persie's horrific challenge against Slovakia, I assume in your books it wasn't worth paying attention to because the other man's leg wasn't snapped in half.

3) Should this have been a dutch side playing against Arsenal and you were an impartial viewer, can you tell me with a straight face that you would have written this same article?

I don't condemn the inbalance, it's fine because i understand where your interests lie. I'd be the same if this happened against my team. However, it is your unwillingness to admit your bias which covers this article, and plenty more, in holes.

Fellas I can understand that you are all Gooners who hate Barca. But Cesc himself said he wanted to go. Added to this he is one of the best Midfielders in the world and i'm sorry but you wouldn't be doing your job properly if you ignored this, being Barcelona.

I'm a United fan and suffered the exact same with Ronaldo. Shit happens. you have to get on with it. I think that Cesc will stay another year but I think that may be all you get out of him.

As for anonymous 07:31 - hate to tell you mate but Barca just took a big feckin loan out, if they want to pursue Cesc, they will. I know it seems massively unfair that they can just borrow stacks of money but that is the way Spanish football is, trust me, they might be 'in debt' but they aren't gonna be having a firesale.

Arsene's prudency makes sense in the real world but Barca play it a bit like playing football manager or something.

Anywho, as for the final, the Dutch had their chances, they could have won it if they'd wanted. To claim that Webb acted as a 12th man is utterly bonkers, he essentially acted as a 12th man for the dutch, covering for Van Bommel and De Jong when they went in for bad tackle after bad tackle without getting carded. I'm sorry but get over it Anti-spaniards, i don't like them myself but I pity the dutch more for not taking their chances and generally being dull as dishwater throughout

Read my last post, statistics don't lie, look at how many fouls the Dutch conceded.

Granted, those 2 did get carded, but the colour should have changed to red long before the end of 90 minutes.

Listen, i'm not denying the Spanish didn't do their own work, some of their tackles weren't great, Iniesta's card flashing was stupid and deserved a booking itself.

However, my point is that you lot are forgiving the Dutch for the exact same stuff. There was as much foul play and cheating from the Dutch as there was from spain, that is all i'm saying.

Maybe the fact that Spain weren't lunging about game-after-game payed of for them in the final whereas the Dutch constant fouling throughout the entire tournament worked against them.

Fact is, the ref, whatever you think of him, did not favour one side over the other. For the Iniesta dives/waving imaginary cards, robben got away with kicking the ball away after being booked. For the bad Spanish challenges, the Dutch got away with bad challenges too

Calm yourself man, you come across as extremely bitter with the nation of spain.

Once again I ask, would you feel the same had the dutch inflicted those kind of challenges on Arsenal players?

It's amazing to me that Arsenal fans are so critical of Spain when we've played that role so much over the years in the EPL under Wenger. The mean spirited approach by the Dutch is not only a recent thing, one of the best, but also most ill-tempered matches I've seen was the Round of 16 match between the Dutch and the West Germans at the San Siro at Italia '90. Rijkaard spit in Voller's hair after 20 minutes and inexplicably both got sent off. The Dutch had decided before the match that the Germans were the better side (despite having beat them in the Euro '88 semis in Germany) and so deliberately tried to kick the Germans off the park. It was brutal to see a team with van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard, Koeman, Vanenberg, etc stoop to those type of tactics. But that cynicism is there in Dutch football and it should not be condoned.

van Bommel was a hatchet man in this tournament and any observer of de Jong over the past couple of years knows that he is one of the dirtiest players out there. van Bommel nearly broke Iniesta's leg in the first half of the match and I'm not sure how anyone can think de Jong's challenge on Alonso wasn't absolutely horrific. The ball was nowhere near de Jong's leg and de Jong himself was surprised at the time not to get sent off.

As has been said before the Dutch took the same approach with Brazil in the second half and if you watch the game closely there were a number of incidents that led to Felipe Melo getting fed up and losing his head on that stamping of Robben. Robben was one of the worst play-actors of the tournament, much worse than Iniesta in my opinion.

I went to Holland briefly to play football in my youth and I have a lot of respect for the technical ability of the Dutch, but I was appalled by their approach in the final and at stages of this tournament. As I've said, the Dutch have a strain of nastiness in them and this is nothing new, unfortunately.

I was with you until you commented on Barca's "negotiating" tactics. Often, when clubs negotiate, it is between two clubs who want to negotiate. Arsene doesn't even want to meet with Barca, much less negotiate. Have you ever heard an Arsenal player come out and say "We want player X because he has Arsenal DNA"? The answer is, of course, no. Arsene is class and when he wants a player, he inquires to the club directly, not through the media.

Dives are worse than fouls - & the former escalates the latter. Intentional or not, Webb overly influenced the game. On another day, the Dutch EASILY could have won. It was close !! Big deal if Spain is currently the best team at ball possession, a quality formerly held by the Netherlands - which got them decades of oohs & awes, but little hardware. Spain is also the masters of 1 - 0 games. Holland was on a 25 game, almost 2 year unbeaten streak, with super prolific games before the tension of the cup mounted. Still they managed to win comfortably, with far more goals than Spain. Robben really should have had the one that he didn't get under enough. Kick save my ass - it was kicked at his foot. Had Holland been up 1 - 0. They would have scored another (they always score a 2nd after a first lifts the burden), won.. and the Spanish would have been complaining about Webb. Holland wouldn't have been perceived as bullies, but rather as determined. I love this Spanish team too, especially Xavi - but I'd like to see them play again with a different ref. Great sides, not a great game. Would love to see a rematch. Spain squeaked by.

Dives are worse than fouls - & the former escalates the latter. Intentional or not, Webb overly influenced the game. On another day, the Dutch EASILY could have won. It was close !! Big deal if Spain is currently the best team at ball possession, a quality formerly held by the Netherlands - which got them decades of oohs & awes, but little hardware. Spain is also the masters of 1 - 0 games. Holland was on a 25 game, almost 2 year unbeaten streak, with super prolific games before the tension of the cup mounted. Still they managed to win comfortably, with far more goals than Spain. Robben really should have had the one that he didn't get under enough. Kick save my ass - it was kicked at his foot. Had Holland been up 1 - 0. They would have scored another (they always score a 2nd after a first lifts the burden), won.. and the Spanish would have been complaining about Webb. Holland wouldn't have been perceived as bullies, but rather as determined. I love this Spanish team too, especially Xavi - but I'd like to see them play again with a different ref. Great sides, not a great game. Would love to see a rematch. Spain squeaked by.