I also see your post as brand snobbery. You feel the need to comment on the UAW yet BMW in Germany is unionized. BMW also owns the Mini brand and the rumor is that the new FWD BMW 2 series will be based on a Mini chassis. Ultimately who cares what chassis a car is on or who builds it as long as the car drives well? According to nearly every review not just CD, the ATS drives great. By the way, as far as I can tell, the Alpha chassis is currently exclusive to the ATS and was developed for that car.

I'm pretty sure the Alpha chassis will be used on the next-gen Camaro ....So, elusive until the next-gen Camaro comes out

So you haven't actually driven an ATS, then? I suspect your opinion is worth no more than mine, but I base mine on past experience with GM and other brands I won't ever buy again. Not to say I won't drive them - sometimes car rental agencies don't give you much of a choice. Who cares what chassis a car is on or who builds it as long as the car "drives well"? Probably people who view cars as transportation devices, a category I'll never fall into. And it's going to be the new FWD 1 series that's based on mini underpinnings, while the current 1-series will become the 2-series. Nonetheless, I stand by what I said. If the OP wants something else to substitute for his BMW in bad weather conditions, great - just don't expect it to be a BMW. It's hard to tell a Chevrolet from a Buick from a Cadillac these days, but none of them is a Ford or Chrysler, either.

All we do here is give our opinions so you are right that mine is worth no more or less than yours. That's more than fair to say.

I think you can say nearly everyone has bad experiences with one or more brands. I had an auto tranny on a Honda Accord blow at 50K miles which cost me $2500.00 in 1999 and that's after I elevated the issue to get Honda to pay half. Very disappointing. An Audi I owned had numerous electrical issues and after being on this and another BMW forum, our brand can have less than stellar reliability. My 2 E90's have been utterly reliable as was the 2006 CTS I owned minus a recurring alignment issue that the dealer paid to fix out of warranty. And if you can't tell a Chevy from a Cadillac, you are not trying or you are taking artistic license.

So you haven't actually driven an ATS, then? I suspect your opinion is worth no more than mine, but I base mine on past experience with GM and other brands I won't ever buy again. Not to say I won't drive them - sometimes car rental agencies don't give you much of a choice. Who cares what chassis a car is on or who builds it as long as the car "drives well"? Probably people who view cars as transportation devices, a category I'll never fall into. And it's going to be the new FWD 1 series that's based on mini underpinnings, while the current 1-series will become the 2-series. Nonetheless, I stand by what I said. If the OP wants something else to substitute for his BMW in bad weather conditions, great - just don't expect it to be a BMW. It's hard to tell a Chevrolet from a Buick from a Cadillac these days, but none of them is a Ford or Chrysler, either.

I'd venture to guess that this past experience is from 10+ years ago. Am I correct? All of the domestics have made unimaginable strides in the last 5-7 years. There's more differentiation between internal brands than there has been in decades. They're obviously saddled by their sins of the past, but it would appear they've learned their lesson. But I'm not naive enough to think that just because the world has changed that opinions will follow suit.

I'd venture to guess that this past experience is from 10+ years ago. Am I correct? All of the domestics have made unimaginable strides in the last 5-7 years. There's more differentiation between internal brands than there has been in decades. They're obviously saddled by their sins of the past, but it would appear they've learned their lesson. But I'm not naive enough to think that just because the world has changed that opinions will follow suit.

Test drove the 2013 IS F.
Horsepower, torque, and handling all come on too easy. And, the exhaust bark is very AMG like.
Maybe a good daily driver alternate to the F30 335i?...any thoughts ?

Nope, 335i all the way...even slightly tuned the car is an animal...Its also got nearly a 200lb weight advantage over the ISF so whp might be a wash but the 335i has so much more torque.. Once the F30 N55 BMS Stage 2 tune is released with additional performance maps it wont even be a race between the two..

I have an 2010 ISF with full bolt ons, except headers. The car is an absolute beast, I switch between the F and the f30, and I can say that it feels like the f30 has low end torque and the F has high end torque. Driving in the city with the f30 is fun cause throttle response and after the jb tune, its just a monster going from like 20-60, but once you pass like 4k rpm the car doesn't seem to pull that hard, but the F starts to really open up at 4k rpm and starts pulling hard I drove to Santa Barbara this past weekend averaging 80-100 and I averaged 26 mpg which is pretty good for a 5.0 v8, but when I drive in the city I average about 15, LOL. Got a heavy foot (cause the exhaust ) The ISF is def a head turner though! Oh yeah, and I haven't had a single problem or people on the F forums don't seem to have any major problems up to 100k.

I have an 2010 ISF with full bolt ons, except headers. The car is an absolute beast, I switch between the F and the f30, and I can say that it feels like the f30 has low end torque and the F has high end torque. Driving in the city with the f30 is fun cause throttle response and after the jb tune, its just a monster going from like 20-60, but once you pass like 4k rpm the car doesn't seem to pull that hard, but the F starts to really open up at 4k rpm and starts pulling hard I drove to Santa Barbara this past weekend averaging 80-100 and I averaged 26 mpg which is pretty good for a 5.0 v8, but when I drive in the city I average about 15, LOL. Got a heavy foot (cause the exhaust ) The ISF is def a head turner though! Oh yeah, and I haven't had a single problem or people on the F forums don't seem to have any major problems up to 100k.

If you don't mind driving a high-priced Toyota, sure, go ahead. Same with a Cadillac ATS or any one of the other BMW wannabes. You could also get a Mustang or Camaro or Charger/Challenter, for that matter. One thing for sure - none of them is a BMW.

Its comments like these that give the general population the perception that all BMW drivers are pricks.

Simply because BMW choses to maintain a relatively narrow product offering that caters to the luxury/Sport enthusiast does not mean that other manufacturers that have broader product offering are inferior.

Sure, I have my biases and preferences, but (a) I keep them to myself, and (b) I don't make broad generalizations based on them.

It seems there is only one "wannabe" here (and I'm not referring to an auto manufacturer).

Its comments like these that give the general population the perception that all BMW drivers are pricks.

Simply because BMW choses to maintain a relatively narrow product offering that caters to the luxury/Sport enthusiast does not mean that other manufacturers that have broader product offering are inferior.

Sure, I have my biases and preferences, but (a) I keep them to myself, and (b) I don't make broad generalizations based on them.

It seems there is only one "wannabe" here (and I'm not referring to an auto manufacturer).

+1
Not to mention that BMW will be making a hybrid car with Toyota going forward. So if BMW chooses Toyota to be a partner than this tells you something about Toyota engineering.

Thing is, RR was born decades before BMW took them over.
Lexus was created by Toyota.

That's true, but the chassis on the 5, 7 and RR Ghost is the same chassis. It was designed with the intention of its being shared among the three cars. So does that make the BMW a RR or the RR a BMW?

Someone above said that (for them or a friend of theirs -- I don't recall which exactly) a car is effectively whatever is the name of the parent company. so I guess for them the RR is a BMW. But the chassis first appeared in the 7er, so I guess that makes the RR a BMW.

It doesn't matter really which way one goes on the matter. My point is still the same: sharing parts -- even major parts -- among sister brands does not make the cars simply rebranded variants of whatever one sees as the high-end or low end sister.

What difference does it make whether the relationship occurred via acquisition or via internal evolution. The end result is the same: they are sister car makers and they share parts between the brands. In the case of the RR, whereas you may never have thought of a RR as anything but an RR, or perhaps, if you remember the '80s, a Bentley with a bigger grill, applying some lines of argument above, an RR is now just a BMW. I personally, don't feel that way, but that's the point of the reasoning some folks have put forward, and I think its specious.

Its comments like these that give the general population the perception that all BMW drivers are pricks.

Simply because BMW choses to maintain a relatively narrow product offering that caters to the luxury/Sport enthusiast does not mean that other manufacturers that have broader product offering are inferior.

Sure, I have my biases and preferences, but (a) I keep them to myself, and (b) I don't make broad generalizations based on them.

It seems there is only one "wannabe" here (and I'm not referring to an auto manufacturer).

+1

See there, it is possible to be both biased and respectful at the same time.

I personally, don't feel that way, but that's the point of the reasoning some folks have put forward, and I think its specious.

I too agree, but my main point was to show that RR was its own name and brand before BMW took over. The RR name and brand still sticks like glue to RR, even though it has many BMW components, an almost guaranteed outcome when one brand buys out another.

On the Lexus' hand, being invented by Toyota, has a Toyota mindset from the very beginning. No way out of it and although Lexus has been known as Lexus, it is widely known as Toyota Lexus, a stigma that will never come unstuck, even if Lexus becomes a wholly independent company of its own.

Lamborghini has always been known as that, even when owned by Chrysler, and others, including Audi. Anyway, who would dare call a Lamborghini an Audi?

Lexus' roots are Toyota, RR's roots are RR from day 1. So, to answer your initial question, RR is RR, Lexus is Toyota.

The thing with Lexus is, you are paying for Toyota quality in the price, and Toyota weight in the performance areas. So they are going to run pricier for the performance equivalent, or offer a lower level of performance for the $.