thamike:We are prohibited from asking customers if they have a disability, and the customer never told us that he had Parkinson's, or any disability for that matter

Somebody at corporate apparently misinterpreted the email that states "DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ASK OUR CUSTOMERS IF THEY ARE 'RETARDED.'"

Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Friskya:Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Presuming a disability and asking someone if they have a disability are two different things. The ADA doesn't really apply to a business offering handicapped services to the disabled. "Do you have a condition that requires assistance" is not verboten. But that's not the issue here. The "we aren't allowed to ask" is merely a poorly thought out defense for refusing service by accusing a customer of being intoxicated.

thamike:You can if you work for an airline and regularly board people with disabilities before everyone else.

Actually, I do work for an airline and one of the things we are prohibited from doing is requiring that disabled travelers board at any specific time. Whenever they present themselves for boarding is when we are required to board them. They are offered the opportunity to board first, if they would like to, but no carrier is permitted to discriminate by requiring them to board at a specific point before, during or after the general boarding has begun.

Friskya:thamike: You can if you work for an airline and regularly board people with disabilities before everyone else.

Actually, I do work for an airline and one of the things we are prohibited from doing is requiring that disabled travelers board at any specific time. Whenever they present themselves for boarding is when we are required to board them. They are offered the opportunity to board first, if they would like to, but no carrier is permitted to discriminate by requiring them to board at a specific point before, during or after the general boarding has begun.

I didn't say anything about requirements. If they are allowed to be offered the opportunity to board first, they are allowed to be recognized as disabled. There is nothing, especially not in the ADA, prohibiting an airline employee from offering assistance to a disabled person.

Do they require these individuals to purchase two seats so that the person next to them does not have to deal with the twitching? Because let me tell you about the time upon which I flew in between Michael J. Fox and the alt of Cassius Clay.

meow said the dog:Do they require these individuals to purchase two seats so that the person next to them does not have to deal with the twitching? Because let me tell you about the time upon which I flew in between Michael J. Fox and the alt of Cassius Clay.

Friskya:thamike: You can if you work for an airline and regularly board people with disabilities before everyone else.

Actually, I do work for an airline and one of the things we are prohibited from doing is requiring that disabled travelers board at any specific time. Whenever they present themselves for boarding is when we are required to board them. They are offered the opportunity to board first, if they would like to, but no carrier is permitted to discriminate by requiring them to board at a specific point before, during or after the general boarding has begun.

You don't really read for detail very well, do you. Perhaps you have a disability that you need assistance with?

Collapsed in public once and came to with a very nice man asking if I'd been drinking, in the least judgemental tone ever. Which actually made it a million times worse. I'm narcoleptic and it was the first time I'd ever had an episode alone in public. I was too humiliated realizing they thought I was a fall-down drunk to accept any help, and tried walking home myself (I was close). Came to a second time 10+ blocks from home in an area I'd never been without my wallet, with cops standing over me.

/I'd rather be asked if I've been drinking than have someone assume I'm a drunk//still get self conscious when I'm wobbly walking to the store because I'm just that sleepy

Ummm...two things, first of all, if he's in the last stage of Parkinson's, shouldn't there be a caregiver or something with him? It would seem to me like this should be one of the last guys to fly solo.

Second, if this is really such a big deal, why isn't the guy who had the run in with the airline complaining? Instead of hearing it from a guy who just might not have all the bloody facts?

I speak from experience when I say the opposite can also backfire. I once approached a young man who was convulsing about. I assumed he was in the throes of some type of malady so I stuffed my wallet in his mouth and held him down to prevent any injuries.

Needless to say, I am permanently banned from all breakdancing competitions.

Great Janitor:Ummm...two things, first of all, if he's in the last stage of Parkinson's, shouldn't there be a caregiver or something with him? It would seem to me like this should be one of the last guys to fly solo...

Was thinking the same thing. During my Grandfather's "end stage" period (lasted 1.5 years before he passed) he couldn't do much of anything. Between the tremors/shakes and his hallucinating, we (hospice/family and I) were taking care of him daily. No way he could think for himself at that point to fly alone, much less do anything by himself.

thamike:Friskya: Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Presuming a disability and asking someone if they have a disability are two different things. The ADA doesn't really apply to a business offering handicapped services to the disabled. "Do you have a condition that requires assistance" is not verboten. But that's not the issue here. The "we aren't allowed to ask" is merely a poorly thought out defense for refusing service by accusing a customer of being intoxicated.

Both of you are right.

Merely asking someone if they have a condition that requires assistance is not a violation of anything, and especially if your business actually offers such accommodation. Presuming a disability AND THEN TREATING the person as if they were disabled, is probably not violative of anything but it's incredibly insulting. Presuming a disability and then providing the accommodation even if not requested borders on battery. Suspecting a disability and then pretending nothing is wrong because you're too embarrassed to ask leads to situations like these.

However, too many businesses are so terrified of potential lawsuits that rather than train their staff to politely inquire "Excuse me, you seem to be having some trouble, can I help you?" and then politely deal with the inevitable "NO! I'M NOT F*CKING DISABLED!!" that they'll get sometimes, they instead go the other route and say "Never ask anyone if they need help even if they're walking in front of a bus." That way, they can disclaim any liability--Oh, that person never told us he was BLIND, we just thought he was drunk! as if that somehow made it okay.

A lot of disabled people have pretty good sized chips on their shoulders, not because people politely say "Hey, did you need some help?" but because they get either the ignore-response when they really need help; OR they get grabbed on the street when some "kind" person tries to help them onto a bus they didn't want to take. My best advice, as an advocate for the disabled, is to just politely ask, and when they say "No, I don't need any help," smile and go about your business.

Gyrfalcon:thamike: Friskya: Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Presuming a disability and asking someone if they have a disability are two different things. The ADA doesn't really apply to a business offering handicapped services to the disabled. "Do you have a condition that requires assistance" is not verboten. But that's not the issue here. The "we aren't allowed to ask" is merely a poorly thought out defense for refusing service by accusing a customer of being intoxicated.

Both of you are right.

Merely asking someone if they have a condition that requires assistance is not a violation of anything, and especially if your business actually offers such accommodation. Presuming a disability AND THEN TREATING the person as if they were disabled, is probably not violative of anything but it's incredibly insulting. Presuming a disability and then providing the accommodation even if not requested borders on battery. Suspecting a disability and then pretending nothing is wrong because you're too embarrassed to ask leads to situations like these.

That's nonsense, unless it involves unwanted touching. However, you're correct otherwise, as are the other comments above.

gerbilpox:Gyrfalcon: thamike: Friskya: Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Presuming a disability and asking someone if they have a disability are two different things. The ADA doesn't really apply to a business offering handicapped services to the disabled. "Do you have a condition that requires assistance" is not verboten. But that's not the issue here. The "we aren't allowed to ask" is merely a poorly thought out defense for refusing service by accusing a customer of being intoxicated.

Both of you are right.

Merely asking someone if they have a condition that requires assistance is not a violation of anything, and especially if your business actually offers such accommodation. Presuming a disability AND THEN TREATING the person as if they were disabled, is probably not violative of anything but it's incredibly insulting. Presuming a disability and then providing the accommodation even if not requested borders on battery. Suspecting a disability and then pretending nothing is wrong because you're too embarrassed to ask leads to situations like these.

That's nonsense, unless it involves unwanted touching. However, you're correct otherwise, as are the other comments above.

Ed Finnerty:I speak from experience when I say the opposite can also backfire. I once approached a young man who was convulsing about. I assumed he was in the throes of some type of malady so I stuffed my wallet in his mouth and held him down to prevent any injuries.

Needless to say, I am permanently banned from all breakdancing competitions.

Breakdancing does not look like a convulsion so I am not sure what you mean.

And let's not forget the difference between a guy who is diabetic and a guy who is drunk. The symptoms of insulin shock and inebriation can look exactly alike.

One of my mother's cousin was arrested for being "drunk" despite being a teetotaler, and it's a very easy mistake to make to throw a diabetic into the drunk tank for the weekend because you think he is drunk or stoned. They can die without treatment. That's why those medic alert bracelets are so popular, but not everybody has them, or wears them all of the time, and they can be lost or overlooked.

Cops and airline stewardesses have to use judgment and common sense just like nurses and doctors because they often deal with people who are sick in ways that seem criminal or overlap with criminal behaviour--even violence can be caused by medical or mental problems and there is no clear line between a medical and a police response where certain physical or mental problems are involved.

Gyrfalcon:gerbilpox: Gyrfalcon: thamike: Friskya: Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Presuming a disability and asking someone if they have a disability are two different things. The ADA doesn't really apply to a business offering handicapped services to the disabled. "Do you have a condition that requires assistance" is not verboten. But that's not the issue here. The "we aren't allowed to ask" is merely a poorly thought out defense for refusing service by accusing a customer of being intoxicated.

Both of you are right.

Merely asking someone if they have a condition that requires assistance is not a violation of anything, and especially if your business actually offers such accommodation. Presuming a disability AND THEN TREATING the person as if they were disabled, is probably not violative of anything but it's incredibly insulting. Presuming a disability and then providing the accommodation even if not requested borders on battery. Suspecting a disability and then pretending nothing is wrong because you're too embarrassed to ask leads to situations like these.

That's nonsense, unless it involves unwanted touching. However, you're correct otherwise, as are the other comments above.

You just didn't read far enough down.

Your statement just said "treating the person as disabled" -- it didn't say how. However, it's true that your line at the end was an example of where it would apply:

OR they get grabbed on the street when some "kind" person tries to help them onto a bus they didn't want to take.

brantgoose:And let's not forget the difference between a guy who is diabetic and a guy who is drunk. The symptoms of insulin shock and inebriation can look exactly alike.

One of my mother's cousin was arrested for being "drunk" despite being a teetotaler, and it's a very easy mistake to make to throw a diabetic into the drunk tank for the weekend because you think he is drunk or stoned. They can die without treatment. That's why those medic alert bracelets are so popular, but not everybody has them, or wears them all of the time, and they can be lost or overlooked.

Cops and airline stewardesses have to use judgment and common sense just like nurses and doctors because they often deal with people who are sick in ways that seem criminal or overlap with criminal behaviour--even violence can be caused by medical or mental problems and there is no clear line between a medical and a police response where certain physical or mental problems are involved.

There is even a name for these type of problems, "suicide by cop".

There's a sadly easy fix for preventing diabetics from being tossed into the drunk tank, btw.

I was hired as a medic for a casino almost exclusively to assess drunks before we called the cops. It came down to asking "Are you diabetic?" and knowing a few followup questions if the answer was "Yes." There's no reason anyone should ever be tossed in lockup BEFORE being assessed, rather than afterward.

Friskya:thamike: We are prohibited from asking customers if they have a disability, and the customer never told us that he had Parkinson's, or any disability for that matter

Somebody at corporate apparently misinterpreted the email that states "DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ASK OUR CUSTOMERS IF THEY ARE 'RETARDED.'"

Actually, that's not far from accurate. Under the ADA, asking if someone has a "disability" (yes, the quotation marks were deliberate) is strictly verboten, as is asking for clarification from anyone who volunteers that information. BUT - they do have to volunteer that information (or their accompanying caregiver has to) before the service provider is required to act on it. Even if they've just spent the last 5 minutes counting up to potato, without that statement, we're not permitted to presume a disability.

Speaking from experience, both Alaska Airlines and Qantas (sp?) DELIBERATELY ignore caregiver requests for assistance for patients when told by caregivers that patients require it. I have had to have literal police intercession even though I had a doctor's note describing the patient with whom I was traveling as a caregiver's condition (late stage Alzheimer's).

So this is not only believable, it's highly likely. Alaska has done it before - on more than one occasion. And yes, they have attempted to blame the patient before. I'm inclined to believe the incensed witness rather than Alaska Airlines here because they have a long history of doing EXACTLY this, one I have witnessed and experienced on several occasions.

thamike:Friskya: thamike: You can if you work for an airline and regularly board people with disabilities before everyone else.

Actually, I do work for an airline and one of the things we are prohibited from doing is requiring that disabled travelers board at any specific time. Whenever they present themselves for boarding is when we are required to board them. They are offered the opportunity to board first, if they would like to, but no carrier is permitted to discriminate by requiring them to board at a specific point before, during or after the general boarding has begun.

I didn't say anything about requirements. If they are allowed to be offered the opportunity to board first, they are allowed to be recognized as disabled. There is nothing, especially not in the ADA, prohibiting an airline employee from offering assistance to a disabled person.

There's a world of difference between allowing individuals to disclose their disability voluntarily and creating a positive yet optional environment to do so, and forcing them to disclose it and forcing them to be treated differently.