"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Mutations can be both bad and good at the same time, depending on the environment, like the sickle cell example. The mutation that causes pale skin (less melanin) so people can get vitamin D from the sun is very beneficial-- in high latitude climates with little sunlight. In tropical climates with stronger sunlight, exposure by pale people with less melanin can lead to burns and skin cancer. But darker brown people have fewer problems with sunshine.

Makes sense only in terms of evolution, but not in terms of "creation". Were the original humans, ie Adam and Eve, "created" in the low latitiudes where they could survive with no clothes, etc-- but with pale skins as is often depicted in biblical illustrations? That would make no sense.

If people just stayed right where their ancestors evolved, there would not be these problems!

So, your refutation of "all mutations are deleterious" is they "can be both good and bad". If there is such a thing as a good one....has there ever been an observed new species? Your proof is e-coli becoming more resistant to antibiotics (best I've seen), just like humans becoming more resistant to influenza post 1914 or so, or Darwin's Finch's, or just like mid-western weeds/bugs becoming more resistant to herbicides/pesticides. Answer me this....are they not still e-coli? humans? Finch's? weeds/bugs? Just because a population, through what Darwin called "natural selection", survives does not prove evolution. Darwin couldn't have gotten away with his theory if it wasn't tainted with some natural laws.

Mutations can be both bad and good at the same time, depending on the environment, like the sickle cell example. The mutation that causes pale skin (less melanin) so people can get vitamin D from the sun is very beneficial-- in high latitude climates with little sunlight. In tropical climates with stronger sunlight, exposure by pale people with less melanin can lead to burns and skin cancer. But darker brown people have fewer problems with sunshine.

Makes sense only in terms of evolution, but not in terms of "creation". Were the original humans, ie Adam and Eve, "created" in the low latitiudes where they could survive with no clothes, etc-- but with pale skins as is often depicted in biblical illustrations? That would make no sense.

If people just stayed right where their ancestors evolved, there would not be these problems!

Adam and Eve were not "white". They were in the image of God. Jesus was middle eastern....not white....so I have no clue where you guys come in with Christianity being a race thing. White people are likely descendants of Japeth....not the line of Jesus.

There was no such thing as a Golden Retriever in the 1,600s, but they're still a dog, red, different from other dogs. But they're still a dog.

I'd rather argue "all mutations are deleterious", like the Golden Retriever (but facts allude you guys) . I loved the article by one of your guys that the human race is getting (evolving) stoopider.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Adam and Eve were not "white". They were in the image of God. Jesus was middle eastern....not white....so I have no clue where you guys come in with Christianity being a race thing. White people are likely descendants of Japeth....not the line of Jesus.

Just like the Physical 2nd "law" of thermodynamics...there is a genetic entropy. Like the sun, moon, universe, mutations....it's all deleterious. It all started with...never mind. I think this is for your side to explain. We have to keep explaining why everything started at a high point and has been going down hill ever since. I want you to explain how everything started at a low point and has been evolving uphill ever since.

98% of the fossils are sea creatures...."And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures,": Genesis 1:20. Ah never mind. Just like recent archeological finds such as Nineveh (since it wasn't found earlier it was proof against the Bible, your dad's argument I guess), and recently found Egyptian army equipment on the bottom of the Red Sea, just a coincidence....never mind....move along.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Adam and Eve were not "white". They were in the image of God. Jesus was middle eastern....not white....so I have no clue where you guys come in with Christianity being a race thing. White people are likely descendants of Japeth....not the line of Jesus.

So was the image of God white, brown, black, yellow...?

The color of "burned bronze" whatever that is. If it matters to you...you're racist.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Which colour it is, doesn't matter to me. I asked the question to make a point. That somehow a genetic pool of 2 people managed to produce all of the diversity of the modern-day human genome, however, is a problem for your story-book that you should care about.

I like to think of it as being a mix of all the colors of humanity...and all colors since then are deleterious (Golden Retriever Example). But it's just a thought. I have to settle with what the Bible says...burned bronze...whatever that is.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I like to think of it as being a mix of all the colors of humanity...and all colors since then are deleterious (Golden Retriever Example). But it's just a thought.

Human skin colour is not like mixing paint, where you add a bit of this and a bit of that to a blend. Have you considered learning how this works? It wouldn't even directly require you to violate your faith in order to learn about genetics.

Which colour it is, doesn't matter to me. I asked the question to make a point. That somehow a genetic pool of 2 people managed to produce all of the diversity of the modern-day human genome, however, is a problem for your story-book that you should care about.

Are you kidding me????? So your saying that the chances of the multiple/parallel lines of evolution that it would take to give us our "diversity", given the statistical impossibilities of it even happening to begin with, give us our diversity??? I'll go with the perfect pair to start and going down hill from there.

Do you believe in global warming?

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I like to think of it as being a mix of all the colors of humanity...and all colors since then are deleterious (Golden Retriever Example). But it's just a thought.

Human skin colour is not like mixing paint, where you add a bit of this and a bit of that to a blend. Have you considered learning how this works? It wouldn't even directly require you to violate your faith in order to learn about genetics.

I have to settle with what the Bible says...burned bronze...whatever that is.

You don't have to do that at all. Scores of Christians know they do not settle with what the Bible says. Why don't you know it?

There are scores of stupid Christians just like there are scores of stupid atheists.

And though I am a 2nd law physical science, Newtonian world view (understanding relativity somewhat) guy, I think I understand genetics best when I read about genetic entropy. It was only then it made sense. We started at perfect point and everything has been deleterious since then. Just like the 2nd law of Thermo. Just cause we have internet, ipods, etc.....Early man was smarter than us. Your guy said so....We're getting stoopider.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 10:26:06 PM by jtp56 »

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Are you kidding me????? So your saying that the chances of the multiple/parallel lines of evolution that it would take to give us our "diversity", given the statistical impossibilities of it even happening to begin with, give us our diversity??? I'll go with the perfect pair to start and going down hill from there.

Are you kidding me????? So your saying that the chances of the multiple/parallel lines of evolution that it would take to give us our "diversity", given the statistical impossibilities of it even happening to begin with, give us our diversity??? I'll go with the perfect pair to start and going down hill from there.

Do you believe in global warming?

This has nothing to do with what I said.

Fine...how does genetics (mixing paint) affect either argument? Evolution or Creation? I think it favors creation.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And though I am a 2nd law physical science, Newtonian world view (understanding relativity somewhat) guy, I think I understand genetics best when I read about genetic entropy. It was only then it made sense.

And where did you read this? Because you clearly don't know how the 2nd law works...nor do you want to.

Fine...how does genetics (mixing paint) affect either argument? Evolution or Creation? I think it favors creation.

I mentioned it because it has to do with what you said about two humans somehow possessing all of the present-day skin colours as a sort of blend. It was a profoundly ignorant statement that you must have been very proud of.

I agree, the Bible is not the evidence (smoking gun) you require. You have to believe it. You will never believe unless you believe. Do you believe that what you believe is really real?

Please describe any other claim that you can apply that thinking to and determine as false.

Yes, religion always requires a double standard.

That's not what I'm saying. If you were there when Jesus was dying on the cross....you wouldn't have believed. There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify. One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise. The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels. They are historical fact, but just general guys. Just like there are two kinds of people in the world...Heal amputees or remember me.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Fine...how does genetics (mixing paint) affect either argument? Evolution or Creation? I think it favors creation.

I mentioned it because it has to do with what you said about two humans somehow possessing all of the present-day skin colours as a sort of blend. It was a profoundly ignorant statement that you must have been very proud of.

Not ignorant based on scientific observations. Two hundred fifty bushel an acre corn came from corn (50 bushel and acre maybe). The different skin/eye color comes from an original design that become a deleterious mutation (very close to level since the information stored in DNA is billions of bits of information).

So, what is your understanding? As usual, we have to explain while you call us ignorant. We just don't believe the way you do so we're ignorant, right?

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

So, from an evolutionary standpoint, how come we have different skin and eye colors? Didn't Darwin explain survival of the fittest well enough? So all are fit. I guess benevolence evolved along with the weaker white race.

There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify. One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise. The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels. They are historical fact, but just general guys.

No. You need to give historians more credit than that. When you post nonsense like this on a forum such as this, it is more than laughable.

There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify. One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise. The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels. They are historical fact, but just general guys.

No. You need to give historians more credit than that. When you post nonsense like this on a forum such as this, it is more than laughable.

I've got the double standard?

You haven't studied the history (or know of historians of Jesus time)...obviously.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There were two guys next to Jesus that the Bible or other historians of the time do not identify. One said if you are really God, take yourself down and me too (and while your at it heal amputees), while the other said remember me when you enter paradise. The historians, biblical scholars, the Bible itself, doesn't know who these guys were even though the historians can pretty much identify everyone else mentioned in the gospels. They are historical fact, but just general guys.

No. You need to give historians more credit than that. When you post nonsense like this on a forum such as this, it is more than laughable.

I've got the double standard?

You haven't studied the history (or know of historians of Jesus time)...obviously.

Sorry...couldn't help myself

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Not ignorant based on scientific observations. Two hundred fifty bushel an acre corn came from corn (50 bushel and acre maybe).

Yes ignorant. It did not come from a single corn genome that also underwent no beneficial mutation, which is the Biblical scenario for human beings.

Also it's not just a genetic bottleneck at Adam and Eve - there's also the genetic bottleneck of Noah's family to worry about. Supposedly all our genes for all our different eye, hair, and skin colours, all came from Noah's family. I guess they were all mixed in there with a power blender. Yeah. Something like that. Not with discrete genes, but as some sort of mixing of substances.

Not ignorant based on scientific observations. Two hundred fifty bushel an acre corn came from corn (50 bushel and acre maybe).

Yes ignorant. It did not come from a single corn genome that also underwent no beneficial mutation, which is the Biblical scenario for human beings.

Also it's not just a genetic bottleneck at Adam and Eve - there's also the genetic bottleneck of Noah's family to worry about. Supposedly all our genes for all our different eye, hair, and skin colours, all came from Noah's family. I guess they were all mixed in there with a power blender. Yeah. Something like that. Not with discrete genes, but as some sort of mixing of substances.

So, what is your understanding? As usual, we have to explain while you call us ignorant. We just don't believe the way you do so we're ignorant, right?

My understanding of what? Please be specific.

250 bu/acre corn beneficial?? It wouldn't last another season without human (hybrid, cross breeding, "genetic engineering") input. How beneficial is that? It came from maze. Without our work, it would be gone in a year. Wow! evolution is cool.

Ah, you stumbled across the fact of Noah's start to current day genetic influences. Your guys called it the Noahic Deluge in an attempt to explain an evolutionary/catastrophic event that happened about 4000 years ago... but you must be young, beyond the scientific proof that there was an asteroid catastrophe that wiped out the dinosaurs, etc. etc. Just when I though we had it all figured out. But the theories keep changing.

Traits?, different environments?, I agree 100%, but where is the new species we have observed coming from an existing one. You claim to understand genetics, how can that happen?

I digress.

Logged

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.