Interim
Joint Committee on Education

Subcommittee
on Elementary and Secondary Education

Minutes
of the<MeetNo1>1st Meeting

of the 2004 Interim

<MeetMDY1>August 9, 2004

The<MeetNo2>1st meeting of the Subcommittee on
Elementary and Secondary Education of the Interim Joint Committee on Education
was held on<Day>Monday,<MeetMDY2>August 9, 2004, at<MeetTime>10:15 AM, in<Room>Room
129 of the Capitol Annex. Representative Jim Thompson,
Chair, called the meeting to order, and the secretary called the roll.

Representative Thompson introduced Senators Blevins, Rhoads,
Representatives Cherry, and Edmonds as new members of the committee.
Representative Siler has requested to be placed on the Postsecondary
Subcommittee and Representative Collins has requested to be placed on this
subcommittee.

Representative Thompson said the committee would begin with
discussion of HB 178 which passed in 2004.† This bill allows students to
complete a GED while they are still enrolled in high school.† In April 2004,
the Kentucky Board of Education approved the creation of a state approved
secondary GED option to align with the provisions of HB 178.† The guidelines
were established with the GED testing service.† Although the state board has
not given final approval to this program, Kevin Noland, Deputy Commissioner and
Starr Lewis, Association Commissioner from the Department of Education gave an
update on the program.† Joining them was B. J. Helton, Kentucky GED
Administrator from the Council on Postsecondary Education.

Mr. Kevin Noland said that Representative Jack Coleman of
this committee sponsored HB 178 in 2004.† Mr. Dick Webb, Superintendent of Burgin
Independent Schools and Mr. H. M. Snodgrass, Superintendent of Harrodsburg
Independent Schools were concerned about students who were a couple of grades
behind their peers. They were giving up and as soon as they turned 16 they were
dropping out of school.† The two superintendents wanted to help these students
in any way possible. This program is not intended to push low performing
students out and is only intended as a last resort for dropouts.† Under the
current law there were no incentives for high schools or districts to continue
to try to reach these students. They were counted as dropouts even if they got
back into a GED program. The bill allows schools to reach a narrow population
of students. If they are able to either complete a program in a school
district, in a district contracted secondary GED program, or if they withdraw
and complete the GED adult program in one year, then they will not be counted
as a dropout against that school.† Also the other provision of HB 178 provides
that a student will be included in the annual average dropout rate of the
school if the student was enrolled for at least thirty days during the school
year prior to the day he or she was recorded as dropping out of school.††

Mr. Noland said that there is a national organization, the
American Council for Education (ACE), that is in charge of GED.† They require
that there be state standards that meet certain criteria in order for this type
of GED program to be offered.† HB 178 does not require school districts to
offer this program.† It is voluntary.†† Mr. Noland said they are trying to get
input as to what those standards should be.† Later this week the Kentucky Board
of Education is meeting at which time they will discuss this program.† At their
meeting in October they will take action.† Mr. Noland said the department
wanted input from subcommittee members and eventually the regulation will come
back to this committee for review and approval. The program was only for those
students who are down to their last option.

Starr Lewis said at this point the department has been
talking to as many stake-holders as possible.† There are pretty strong and
mixed emotions as to whether or not there needs to be such a program in place
for students.† The department has talked with the Association of School
Superintendents, secondary school principals, directors of pupil personnel, and
Kentucky High School Athletics Association.† They all have questions about how
this might work.†

Ms. Lewis said the department has drafted a regulation and they
have looked at the standards of the American Council of Education (ACE).†† The
ACE requires that students receive counseling, have a certain number of hours
of instruction, and also have all sort of supports in place to help them be
successful. They also require that there be some eligibility standards for the
students to try to insure that they are successful.†

Ms. Lewis said the ACE requires that the students be credit
deficient.† The state has to define what that means.† Right now the regulation
states that they have to be two years behind in terms of credits toward
graduation.† Some think there should be a stricter standard yet others feel it
should be more lenient.† The department is holding discussions right now on
this issue.† The two elements that they have heard the most discussion is about
athletes and special education students.† None of these students would be
eligible for sports activities if they meet the criteria of being credit
deficient. Special education students would have to meet the same eligibility
requirements of any other student.† Also their admission and release committee
would have to agree that this was an appropriate placement for this particular
student.†

Ms. Lewis said they were trying to get as much input as
possible in the drafting of the regulation and making the determination about
what the program will finally look like.† They also have a draft application to
the American Council for Education, laying out what the department is
considering to be the standards for Kentucky.†

Representative Collins asked what the present requirements
were for getting into the GED program.† Ms. B. J. Helton said right now the
requirement is that they have to be at least 17 years of age, and have been
withdrawn for one year from school, or their last class has to have
graduated.†† Mr. Noland said that there is another exception and that is if the
superintendent will give an exception signed indicating exigent circumstances.†

Representative Collins asked if a student dropping out at 16
needed the signature of a parent.† Ms. Helton said a signature of the parent
was not required but they would need an exigent waiver by the school
superintendent.† Mr. Noland said that under the statute that talks about
compulsory school attendance age they are allowed to drop out.† They are
counseled on the risk of leaving school and the pros and cons of dropping out
to persuade them against doing so.† Representative Collins said it would seem
that if 18 is legal age for making most decisions as an adult, why then could
they make this decision without the signature of their parents.† Mr. Noland
said that a bill could be enacted to improve on this policy.† Representative
Collins said a lot of students want to drop out and this may give them an
incentive to do so and get a GED.† Ms. Lewis said that in the application it
insures that the students that enter into this program have consultation with
their parent or guardian.†

Representative Thompson said he also has concerns that this
doesnít become the holding tank for students that are not being successful. He
asked if the department considered this as stage three since as of now there is
regular high school and alternative programs which are considered stage one and
stage two.† Ms. Lewis said yes and it is also considered as the last resort
option as well.† Representative Thompson said that obviously there will be far
less students in this programs than in the alternative school programs.† Ms.
Lewis said that the ACE describes it as a niche program for a very small number
of students.† They do not see this as an appropriate option for large numbers
of students.† The roll of the stateís Department of Education would be to
monitor the students that are in the program.† In fact, they would have to send
to ACE data about how many students are in the program and the demographic make
up of those students.

Representative Thompson asked what scenario does the
department visualize that a special education student would become involved in
this program.† Ms. Lewis said the special education student would have to have
strong enough skills to meet the minimum cut off for entry into the program.†
There would have to be strong indication of being successful in the program.†
Mr. Noland said that it would also have to be reflected in the studentís
individual education plan that this would be the appropriate avenue for the
education for this student.†† Parents and other teachers would have a roll in
deciding whether this is the best course of action.† Ms. Helton said there is
also a provision for them to receive accommodations on the GED.†

Representative Thompson asked if the department had any
qualms, as far as the federal guidelines are concerned,† about getting approval
for this program.†† Mr. Noland said they have had conversations and they are
coming up with criteria to meet the national organizationís standards and they
didnít expect any problems.† The federal government is not involved.

†

Representative Siler asked if the mandatory instruction
would be during the school day, in the evening, or at the pleasure of the
student.† Mr. Noland said that the minimum is 15 hours per week and that was
something the local school districts would decide.† Representative Siler said
this might lead some to go ahead and drop out instead of staying in the
mandatory instruction time frame if it was more convenient for their
circumstances.† Ms. Helton said they currently have the option of doing that
but they have to meet a waiting requirement if they are not 17.† If they drop
out currently and they donít meet the eligibility requirements, they can enroll
in the adult education programs which is separately funded. The requirement is
that they be officially withdrawn and be at least 16. They canít take the test
until they meet the eligibility requirement.†

Representative Collins asked if the diplomas are the same.†
Mr. Noland said the student would still have to have the cognitive ability to
meet the standards and the diplomas are the same.† Another option that local
school boards issue is a certificate of completion† that is given when the
student, because of the disability, is not able to complete the normal high
school education requirements.† Representative Collins said the business
community complains that the graduates coming into the workforce with a regular
diploma cannot always perform and maybe the diplomas needed to be different to
distinguish that these are not graduating seniors.† Ms. Helton said because of
the ADA requirements, GED gives the same diploma.† It cannot be distinguished between
those that have accommodation testing from those that do not.†

Representative Thompson asked what was their sense of
commitment and what base of support they have for this program.† Ms. Lewis said
their responses have been very positive.† The superintendents say that it is a
program that they need and they will make sure that it is not abused.† That
doesnít mean they have one hundred percent positive response but to date it has
been very positive.† Representative Thompson asked if they generally feel it
will be accepted and if most school systems will offer some part of this
program.† Ms. Lewis said they had no indication how many districts have
intentions of putting the program in place.† The reservations are around the
notion of this being considered and kept for a niche program for a very few
students.† Everyone wants to make sure it remains that type of program rather
than a broad base program.† Representative Thompson said that they need to go
into the program with the idea that it will be closely monitored and
requirements will be rigid and uniform, yet realistic enough to allow it to
function for this small number of students.† Mr. Noland said that after the
school districts have had time to implement this program the department will
collect data on how well they are doing and will report back to the committee
on which school districts are participating, how many students are in it, and
how well it is being administered.†† He said improvements could be made in the
statute if needed.†

Representative Thompson asked what time frame they
envision.† Ms. Lewis said their intent was to send in their application to the
ACE soon.† She said they were under the impression that it needed to be in
place during this up coming school year.†† ACE said they donít see a problem
with getting the application approved to do so.†

Representative Moberly asked if it was anticipated if these
programs would be for students that come in with regular time as other
students. Would they function with the general population of the school in
extracurricular activities?† Ms. Lewis said that depended on how the district
set up the program.† They might set it up during the regular school time.†
These students would not be eligible to participate in school athletics but
they could participate in other activities at the school.† Mr. Noland said the
athletics is an issue of† KHSAA bylaws that say you have to be academically on
grade level to participate in athletics.† These have to be students that are
operating behind grade level.† They will be kids that have dropped out, or are
on the verge and guidance counselors and teachers have tried every other option
with them.† That is why the ACE requires the department to have these state
standards to make sure this is not a way to funnel out of the school system the
poor performing or discipline problem students but rather is a narrow niche for
only those students who have this option or drop out.† It is also an incentive
to the school and district to keep trying with that student.† The bill provides
that the student will not be counted as a dropout if they are able to save the
student in this way.

Representative Moberly asked if the legislation requires
them to take the assessment.† Mr. Noland said that was a provision to ensure
that this was not a way to take a low performing student so they would not have
to take CATS and score against the school.† Representative Moberly wanted to
know how they were going to figure what their grade level was for the purpose
of taking the assessment if they are in the GED program.† Ms. Lewis said by the
number of credits they have.† Mr. Noland said this would typically be a high
school student and you would look at the number of credits they have and that
is what grade you would place them on.† Representative Moberly said he had a
concern that somebody could be interpreted as never being at a grade level
where they would have to take the assessment.† Mr. Noland said that regardless
at what level they test on the fact that they are enrolled in that school shows
they exist and they are counted as a part of that schoolís participation rate
and are required to test that student or they get a zero for that student.†
Representative Moberly said he wanted more information as to how the school is
going to determine at what grade level that student is when they get into the
GED program just to make sure there is not a loophole.

Representative Moberly asked if they could participate in
all other activities except athletics because of the KHSAA rules.† Mr. Noland
said there would no reason why they couldn't participate in the others because
they would officially be enrolled in the high school.† If that student meets
the school council policy on participation they could participate.†
Representative Moberly said that theoretically they could come in every day and
be in band and other clubs but not in the regular academic program.††
Representative Thompson thanked the presenters for their participation.

Representative Thompson said the Education Professional
Standards Board (EPSB) is in its second year of a pilot project that allows a
select group of new teachers to participate in a two year teacher intern
program. The project has given the Professional Standards Board a means to
experiment with the way teacher interns are supported.† He introduced Dr.
Phillip Rogers who is the Division Director.†

Dr. Rogers said that in the meeting folders there was a
handout that has the three priorities of the grant and the progress they are
making. He highlighted the three priorities of the program.† They were:† a) to
improve teacher performance relative to EPSB standards and P-12 student
achievement; b) to ensure that teacher preparation programs are preparing new
teachers with content knowledge that aligns with Kentuckyís Core Content for
Assessment; and c) to collect and use performance accountability data.†

Dr.† Rogers highlighted the progress of the data collecting
and sharing.† He also explained the progress of performance accountability. He
said the focus of this grant was to look at KTIP and teacher preparation in
light of student learning.† He noted that the 11.4 million dollar three-year
grant was delayed four months because they didnít know they couldnít hire
people as temporary federal grant employees.† The four persons that are
employed on the Teacher Quality Enhancement Grant are employed by the Northern
Kentucky Cooperative for Educational Services.† Also, he said the EPSB was
given preliminary notification by USDOE that a no-cost one-year extension will
be approved.† To benefit from the extension, the EPSB will be requesting the
2005 Legislature to extend the Teacher Quality Enhancement Grant for an
additional year.†

Dr. Rogers said in closing that he had included a comment
from the external evaluation team from the University of Tennessee.† He said
the project is very complex and it has a lot of components.† They are very
pleased with the progress they have made.†

Representative Thompson said through the years he had been
skeptical about the amount of time involved in the portfolio process because
universally talking to beginning teachers this is one of the things they feel
is a burden.† He related a story about his daughter-in-law who went for a job
interview in Georgia and how the principal was so impressed with her portfolio
that he asked if he could take it to his county wide administrator meeting that
afternoon.† Shortly thereafter she was offered a job in an adjoining county
which was the county of her choice.† It was almost unheard of new teachers
being employed there.† She felt her portfolio strengthened her case and her
position enough that she was offered a job and she took it.† Representative
Thompson said it strengthens the position of Kentucky teachers.†

Representative Thompson said the last item on the agenda was
HB 402 that required this committee to conduct a study on the effectiveness and
efficiency of the teacher and principal intern programs and to make
recommendations back to LRC.† The study was begun in 2002.† The final chapter
of the report is a part of the record along with a separate page containing the
recommendations of the study.† The committee will answer questions at the
November meeting and take final action.† The staff will provide anyone with a
copy of the full report if needed.†

Representative Collins asked if an intern principal was
required to have had teaching experience.† Dr. Rogers said if they go through
the normal route they do but there are alternative ways for principals. There
is no principal internship program.† Representative Collins asked if this was a
good thing and Dr. Rogers said it was to be seen.† There are people who have a
disposition for being a principal and they do very well.† Others find out it is
not like running a grocery store and they donít do very well.† Most of the
universities do provide mentors for this group.†

Representative Thompson said we face a real challenge in
keeping these programs in tact.† Teacher interns and principal interns have
great merit.

Representative Thompson said the next meeting of the
subcommittee will be a site visit to Oldham County School District on August
25.† He reminded everyone that there was an Education Showcase next door in
Room 149 and he invited everyone to attend.† There were 16 displays that
highlight creative educational programs.† It begins at 11:30.

There being no further business before the subcommittee the
meeting was adjourned at 11:00 a.m.