Post by lilabby on Dec 10, 2007 12:38:19 GMT -5

WOW!! These theorys are cool!I think Azula never was trying or planning to overthrow her father, she seems pretty loyal to him.I do wonder what she'll do if he yells at her and tries to punish her for lying to him about the avatar .......... she doesnt seem like the type who'll just sit there and take it.... maybe she'll get so angry that she might turn on him, ... how? i donk know but i think she will turn on him if he banishes her or something like the sort.

Post by avatar:tla-lover on Dec 10, 2007 12:39:35 GMT -5

Sorry grandmaster, I didn't have any intentions with that line. Actually it was a joke; and I know my jokes don't qualify the level of 'funny', but I put an emoticon behind it... I thought it was clear. -_-''

Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 10, 2007 14:57:19 GMT -5

generalzoisaito said:

The Avatar State: she promised Zuko's safe, honorable return to the Fire Nation. Into the waiting arms of their forgiving father, no less.The Guru / The Crossroads Of Destiny: as a skilled actor, she appears to submit to Long Feng's wishes as an underling... only for the Grand Secretariat to find his own agents simultaneously turned against him by verbal coercion.

No one is safe from her ever-scheming mind.

She definitely fooled Zuko, but she didn't fool Iroh. And Long Feng was an idiot.

Recall The Avatar And The Fire Lord -- the story foretold was that of betrayal for selfish gain. Just as Zuko embodies Great-grandfather Roku, so, too, does Azula embody Great-grandfather Sozin. Sozin's callous abandonment of his friend could be the foreshadowed fate of Mai and Ty Lee, should Azula no longer deem them necessary, or a burden to her progress. She seems to have studied their battle tactics and used them in actual combat. At this point, their value might come into question.

Zuko embodies Roku; makes sense.

Azula embodies Sozin; also making sense.

So Sozin abandoning Roku foreshadows Azula betraying... Ty Lee and Mai? That doesn't quite tie in with your Zuko = Roku comparison. Seems to me like you just want Azula to kill as many people as possible before the season ends. ;p

The number one reason that I see Ozai on the throne at the end of the season is because if Azula were the Fire Lord and Aang were to defeat her, Zuko wouldn't get the opportunity to best his sis, which seems to me like the perfect conclusion to his role as Aang's sidekick. Zuko needs to aid in her defeat in a manner that isn't simply vicarious, or else his character will appear pretty weak in the end.

"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If we take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale."

Post by Fire Lord Azula on Dec 10, 2007 15:21:24 GMT -5

conspiracytheorist said:

So Sozin abandoning Roku foreshadows Azula betraying... Ty Lee and Mai? That doesn't quite tie in with your Zuko = Roku comparison. Seems to me like you just want Azula to kill as many people as possible before the season ends. ;p

Iroh initiated the Zuko = Roku comparison before I did ( finding his true self and restoring balance to the world, in much the way Roku had to choose between national pride and worldly betterment ), in an instance entirely separate from Azula = Sozin, which is derived solely on behavior and not a remark made by a character. I made the comparison to draw conclusions from both characters' personalities, and not on interpersonal interaction between the two. I didn't necessarily intend for Zuko = Roku and Azula = Sozin to forecast the sister betraying the brother. Rather, I meant that Azula, as Sozin's descendant, would turn her back on her "friends", just like her great-grandfather turned his back on his friend. She inherited so much for him -- so, I figured, why not a wavering loyalty to those she claims to care about?

I don't wish for the death of any character, so I'm not sure where the idea that I want Azula to kill a bunch of people came from.

conspiracytheorist said:

The number one reason that I see Ozai on the throne at the end of the season is because if Azula were the Fire Lord and Aang were to defeat her, Zuko wouldn't get the opportunity to best his sis, which seems to me like the perfect conclusion to his role as Aang's sidekick. Zuko needs to aid in her defeat in a manner that isn't simply vicarious, or else his character will appear pretty weak in the end.

I'm not aware of any set law which states that Aang and only Aang must defeat the Fire Lord, whoever that may be. Theoretically, Aang could focus his energies on Sozin's Comet -- because someone needs to destroy that thing, or history will repeat itself yet again in a hundred years... Aang seems like the only one who can do it, with the hopeful re-emergence of the Avatar State -- while Zuko faces and defeats Azula, with or without the Avatar's assistance. I honestly have yet to see a scenario where Azula couldn't possibly be inserted in Ozai's place.

Keeper of Azula's arrogance, brilliant mind, ambitions, and new armor.

Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 10, 2007 16:06:40 GMT -5

generalzoisaito said:

Iroh initiated the Zuko = Roku comparison before I did ( finding his true self and restoring balance to the world, in much the way Roku had to choose between national pride and worldly betterment ), in an instance entirely separate from Azula = Sozin, which is derived solely on behavior and not a remark made by a character. I made the comparison to draw conclusions from both characters' personalities, and not on interpersonal interaction between the two. I didn't necessarily intend for Zuko = Roku and Azula = Sozin to forecast the sister betraying the brother. Rather, I meant that Azula, as Sozin's descendant, would turn her back on her "friends", just like her great-grandfather turned his back on his friend. She inherited so much for him -- so, I figured, why not a wavering loyalty to those she claims to care about?

Yeah, it makes a lot more sense when you isolate it from the Zuko and Roku thing. Still, Azula being an evil genius doesn't indicate to me that she'll betray Mai and Ty Lee. What reason does she have to stop allowing them to tag along with her? She might embody Sozin's ruthlessness, but there needs to be a stimulus other than, "Azula copied their fighting styles, so they're disposable now," to ditch them altogether.

I don't wish for the death of any character, so I'm not sure where the idea that I want Azula to kill a bunch of people came from.

Well, you seem to be pretty set on Azula dethroning her father (by killing him, in several scenarios), and betraying Mai and Ty Lee (this wouldn't require their deaths unless Azula were to have a particularly bad day, or both of them do something extremely stupid). So not a bunch, just one. I guess I should have said, "Seems to me like you just want Azula to kill/dupe/betray as many people as possible before the season ends." Which is reasonable.

I'm not aware of any set law which states that Aang and only Aang must defeat the Fire Lord, whoever that may be. Theoretically, Aang could focus his energies on Sozin's Comet -- because someone needs to destroy that thing, or history will repeat itself yet again in a hundred years... Aang seems like the only one who can do it, with the hopeful re-emergence of the Avatar State -- while Zuko faces and defeats Azula, with or without the Avatar's assistance. I honestly have yet to see a scenario where Azula couldn't possibly be inserted in Ozai's place.

Oh, yes. I firmly believe that Aang needs to stop Sozin's comet indefinitely. If I had my way, I'd have him do it from inside the spirit world - some have theorized that the comet houses an angry fire spirit which Aang could destroy from the "higher plane". It would open the door for more spirit world stuff, which the second season sorely lacked. But I'm getting off topic.

Yeah, there's no law that says that Aang has to beat the Fire Lord. But we all have our opinions (that is not to say that my opinion is law - in fact it's just the opposite). I see him stopping the comet first, and returning to the physical world to defeat a bewildered but still powerful Ozai. Anyway, your point that Azula could be Fire Lord is noted, but the absence of any absolute proof that Aang will face Ozai isn't a case for Azula taking over the throne. What I mean to say is, that's just playing defense, and you've got to play offense to convince me that Azula being Fire Lord is the right play, narratively speaking.

On an unrelated note:

Do you think Azula would be able to control Sozin's comet? Even if she wanted her father out of her way, I'm sure she would want to win the war in the quickest and most efficient way possible. Azula's a sharp girl, so she would probably wait until after Ozai had brought the comet down on the Fire Nation's enemies, right?

The problem here is that Ozai isn't going to get the comet off. Aang IS going to stop it somehow. So if Azula doesn't know how to control the comet, the element of time being of the essence completely disappears. If Azula seizes the throne and just lets the comet pass on by, what does Aang have to worry about? Roku's command that he must, "Defeat the Fire Lord before the comet arrives," becomes, "Whenever you get around to it is okay, you've got 100 years." (Hyperbole, of course.) If this 'race against the clock' aspect is lost, Aang would certainly take the time to brush up on his bending before eventually going after Azula. That isn't to say that he'd laze around one of the air temples all day and ignore the war going on around him, but there wouldn't be that element of eagerness bordering on obsession with learning the elements that we've seen in episodes like "The Waterbending Scroll", "The Deserter", "The Blind Bandit", "Bitter Work", and others.

Talented as Azula is, I don't think she knows how to bring the comet down to win the war. So the only way I see her being Fire Lord is if the following happens:

1) Aang enters the spirit world to destroy the comet.2) Azula eliminates her dad while Aang is in the spirit world.3) Aang destroys the comet without the knowledge that Ozai has been removed from power.4) Aang returns to the physical world to find that Azula is in charge.5) Fighting ensues (my bet's on Aang, who should be a fully realized Avatar by this point).

I can't imagine the timeline holding up without Aang knowing that summer's end is the longest he can go. Take that away, and Book 3 (which is set in the summer) being the final book wouldn't make sense to me, and from there things just get messy.

"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If we take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale."

Post by SpiritBender on Dec 10, 2007 17:02:11 GMT -5

^^I was under the impression that "controlling the comet" is not really the issue. Roku said that the comet enhances the firebenders' power greatly -- not that they have to use the actual comet somehow. In the case of either Ozai or Azula being on the throne, the return of the comet means that ALL the firebenders would be super-powered for however long the comet is near the earth. Given the timespan things have happened in so far, I strongly believe that Aang WON'T win the war before the comet comes. Neither will he be a fully-realized avatar by then; he simply doesn't have enough time. Roku explained that it takes YEARS of study and discipline to become a fully realized Avatar. It's not going to be done within the span of a few months, and Aang will not be able to win the war by himself. That's why he needs the help of Iroh and the White Lotus Society and the rest of the world to fight alongside him. The final showdown seems likely to be Aang and ALL the other nations against an army of super-powered firebenders who may very well be led by Azula...

Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 10, 2007 17:19:42 GMT -5

spiritbender said:

^^I was under the impression that "controlling the comet" is not really the issue. Roku said that the comet enhances the firebenders' power greatly -- not that they have to use the actual comet somehow. In the case of either Ozai or Azula being on the throne, the return of the comet means that ALL the firebenders would be super-powered for however long the comet is near the earth. Given the timespan things have happened in so far, I strongly believe that Aang WON'T win the war before the comet comes. Neither will he be a fully-realized avatar by then; he simply doesn't have enough time. Roku explained that it takes YEARS of study and discipline to become a fully realized Avatar. It's not going to be done within the span of a few months, and Aang will not be able to win the war by himself. That's why he needs the help of Iroh and the White Lotus Society and the rest of the world to fight alongside him. The final showdown seems likely to be Aang and ALL the other nations against an army of super-powered firebenders who may very well be led by Azula...

-- SpiritBender

It would seem that you have blown a hole straight through my argument. ;p

"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If we take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale."

Post by yiceman on Dec 10, 2007 22:12:15 GMT -5

I'm siding with conspiracy on this.

To spiritbender-- There must be SOME form of connection or control that has to be made to the comet. We know it runs on a cycle of 100 years, right? So...is this only the second time it's come and gone? It can't be, otherwise no one would know it's returning.

Which means the comet as been on this cycle for some time. But, somehow, no firebenders knew about it. Sozin discovered it. It's CALLED Sozin's comet, probably because he was the very first to figure out how to use it.

So, yes, there HAS to be some sort of, I dunno, ritual or something. Would Azula know about it? I doubt Ozai's told anyone HOW to do it, but it's apparently written down somewhere. Unless Ozai destroyed the records, I dunno if Azula would need do more but peruse the Fire Lord's personal library.

Now...yes, I think there is some sort of rule that says Aang has to beat the Fire Lord, just like I think there's some sort of rule that says Zuko has to beat Azula. Narrative rules. Just go see any movie ever made and you'll notice what I mean. The good guy always has some sort of one-on-one with the bad guy. His friends will usually take out the minions, especially if said minions gave them personal strife.

Azula is still, to some extent, a minion. A secondary villain. She's more prominent than Ozai, but he's just as evil and an even bigger threat than she is. He's calling the shots, atm. He's the head of the snake.

As such, Aang, the hero, the guy who was given the order to take out the Fire Lord, has to have his personal confrontation. I am strongly, strongly against the idea of the entire gAang in direct combat with Ozai.

As for Zuko, the secondary hero...what better way to finish his story than to beat Azula? Think about it.

He's half Roku half Sozin, and those sides are warring within him. Now he has the chance to finally defeat and subdue the essence of Sozin for good.

And Azula's been "better" than him for all his life. He's got more to prove to himself and to the audience by defeating her. And their relationship is far more personal than hers and Aang's is.

Now...I'm pretty sure I was the first person who really started preaching the "Aang destroys the comet theory" but I need to clarify something.

Aang still has to duel the Fire Lord. It's very important we see that. We need to see him use his bending fully, or else what was the point of the last three seasons?

Now...could Azula really beat a fully realized Avatar on her own? Enough that he would need to change tactics and try to take out the comet, that is. I don't really think so.

Which is why I think that the comet WILL come. The Fire Lord WILL connect with it and we'll see it in action. We'll see the good guys getting crushed. Aang, even with the Avatar State, won't be able to stand against the Fire Lord with that kind of power, which forces him to to take out the comet.

Now...in the meantime, I imagined that, assuming Ozai is still on the throne, Zuko would have already defeated Azula and arrived in time to have the most intense Agni Kai ever (with both fighters juiced up on comet power) against Ozai. Just to distract him from Aang's spirit-less body.

Now...could we have Azula be the Fire Lord the whole time? Doesn't work as well for two big reasons, imo.

1) Aang and Azula have fought 100 times. We're used to her. It's old news to see them fight again. It's just not as intense as Aang going up against the ominous, distant, unknown Fire Lord.

2) Were Azula the Fire Lord, Zuko would not be able to actually beat her! She still needs to be taken out by Aang, if you ask me. Otherwise Zuko would have been the hero the whole time. He could have just killed Azula, taken the throne, and ordered his troops to pull back.

So yeah, I think when he fights Ozai, he'll be loosing. Then Aang blows up the comet. The backlash roasts Ozai, the guy who made the connection. This keeps both Zuko and Aang from actually having to murder anyone directly.

Aang takes out the comet, and thus the Fire Lord.

Zuko defeated Azula, a huge threat and major enemy, and aided Aang by keeping his father distracted long enough for Aang to do his deed.

Post by Alleluia on Dec 10, 2007 22:34:28 GMT -5

Brilliant theory about the final battle, Yiceman. *karma*

^Funniest sig ever, by Bagpipe Turtle. XD

"We were just admiring the mudan tree.The blossoms reach for the sunlight above, yet, unseen, the roots reach for the rainwater below. Sun and rain, so different, yet only by working together do they create hamony... and life."-Mulan II (So Zutara)

Post by avatar:tla-lover on Dec 14, 2007 9:23:39 GMT -5

BTW- A thought occured to me. I stated in a post that I thought Azula wouldn't be punished by her father. Now I've been thinking a lot lately and I think somethings do make sense.

Azula might be in danger... Remember the picture we got at CC? Of Azula? As if she was hurt or extremely mad?

Could it be a possibility that Ozai made her feel this upset... or actually... maybe even punish/hurt her? There's a flashy thingie behind her neck? Is that for the effect or because Azula is in pain? Any thoughts?

Post by zukofan22 on Dec 14, 2007 19:52:36 GMT -5

Why am I getting the feeling that Azula's getting whipped in that picture?

Knowing Ozai, he probably doesn't want to hurt his favorite child, so he'll probably just say something that causes her to launch in an outburst.

Almost like: "You failed to tell me that the Avatar was actually alive. You are almost as careless and foolish as your traitorous brother. Do not make this mistake again, my princess, or your punishment will be...much more steeper..."

Post by Alleluia on Dec 14, 2007 23:20:50 GMT -5

I always thought that "flashy thingy" wasn't a flash at all but an arrow indicating the direction of movement in the pic. In Azula's case, I think it means her head/body moves forward/toward the foreground as she transitions btwn the closed eye look and the eyes open and screaming look.

And, I could see that being used in a scene where Ozai is disciplining/berating her.

^Funniest sig ever, by Bagpipe Turtle. XD

"We were just admiring the mudan tree.The blossoms reach for the sunlight above, yet, unseen, the roots reach for the rainwater below. Sun and rain, so different, yet only by working together do they create hamony... and life."-Mulan II (So Zutara)

Post by akako on Dec 15, 2007 1:07:14 GMT -5

Here's my belief.

I know a lot of people are saying that Ozai will let Azula off the hook- she IS his favorite, after all; always has been. He's let her get away with a lot over the years. This time should be no different.

Actually, if you stop and think about it, it IS different.

Azula has always been the favored child; Zuko was cast off to the side. In the eyes of Ozal, his precious, prodigy daughter could do no wrong.

In DOBS, Zuko revealed that it was Azula, not him, who struck down Aang. Not only that, but that he (Aang) was alive and leading the invasion. In one fell swoop, Ozai learned that Azula, his greatest pride and most talented offspring, had FAILED in killing the Avatar, then LIED TO HIM about it.

Consider this; Ozai views Azula as the most loyal out of his entire family. She was the one who stood by him, declared that he would be a far better Fire Lord than his older, most benevolent brother. She has carried out his bidding; from trailing and capturing her brother and uncle to seizing Ba Sing Se. All was for him and he took all this as a sign of her devotion and loyalty to him and him alone.

Now he finds out that she lied to him. Her father, the Fire Lord. Azula had failed in killing the Avatar, allowed her brother to get back into his 'good graces' (such as they are), only to be betrayed by him later and was, in fact, blasted into a wall by said-son and could have been killed because of it. Even worse; because of Azula, a threat even greater to Ozai exists... Zuko.

In 'The Winter Solstice'; Avatar Roku', Iroh stated that his brother was 'not the understanding type'. I honestly can't see Ozai letting Azula completely off the hook. As it stands now, Azula is his sole remaining heir to the throne, so I doubt he'll dole out the same kind of punishment he did to Zuko. But I think he WILL take the time to remind her who the boss is and that any further deception from her could be viewed as treason. He's not going to tolerate any more failure.

Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 15, 2007 1:22:24 GMT -5

akako said:

In 'The Winter Solstice'; Avatar Roku', Iroh stated that his brother was 'not the understanding type'. I honestly can't see Ozai letting Azula completely off the hook. As it stands now, Azula is his sole remaining heir to the throne, so I doubt he'll dole out the same kind of punishment he did to Zuko. But I think he WILL take the time to remind her who the boss is and that any further deception from her could be viewed as treason. He's not going to tolerate any more failure.

Any insight as to what kind of action he'll take against her? Just a stern talking to seems a bit weak. The only thing I can see fitting is a sort of "silent treatment" - and by that I mean Azula wouldn't be granted private audiences with her father, or be invited to war meetings.

"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If we take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale."