SC2 2017 - Southern California Soaring Clubs' Official Thread

Hello everyone and Happy New Year

Welcome to the official 2017 SC2 thread. I will be using this thread and the email list at sc2soaring@gmail.com to communicate with our members and other interested parties. If you want the latest and most up to date info this is where you will find it.

So far here is the TENTATIVE schedule for 2017. We are taking our time setting up the schedule with the hope of lining up new fields for 2017. My goal is that we don't fly the same field twice.

I've got a question about the 2016 rules. Section 18 has this to say about electric launched sailplanes:

TIMING

17. The clock for winch-launched models starts on exit from the winch line. For electric-launched models the clock starts when the motor stops on launch, either at 150 meters altitude or 30 seconds, which ever [sic] occurs first.

18. Time stops upon contact with a ground based object for either launch type. Additionally for electric-launched models the time stops if the motor is started anytime during the flight.

What does Section 18 mean, about "Additionally for electric-launched models the time stops if the motor is started anytime during the flight."

Does the timer just stop the clock if the pilot restarts his motor in the air? If so, doesn't this mean the pilot can stop/end his clock time exactly at the task time just by restarting his motor? I don't see any penalty for this anywhere else in the rules.

Did you want to say that the timer is reset to 0 and then restarted when the pilot restarts the motor? Alternatively, did you want to say that the pilot gets zero points for restarting the motor in the air?

Since last year was the first we implemented mixed launch in SC2, We tried to make the rules for electric launched planes as equal as possible with the winch launched models. As to your questions...

"Does the timer just stop the clock if the pilot restarts his motor in the air? If so, doesn't this mean the pilot can stop/end his clock time exactly at the task time just by restarting his motor? I don't see any penalty for this anywhere else in the rules."

There is nothing preventing a pilot and his timer from stopping the time at the exact task time now with winch launched models, except if someone like me did that and I started winning contests other pilots would get real suspicious real fast . If a pilot can keep his plane in the air to the task time and then need to stop the timer to lock in the time before touching down, I would say he or she has other problems, like landing. No pilot that I'm aware of who can make their time consistently would do something like that. As far as a penalty for restarting the motor, there is no corresponding penalty for winch launched models. The time on the clock and no landing points is usually penalty enough.

"Did you want to say that the timer is reset to 0 and then restarted when the pilot restarts the motor? Alternatively, did you want to say that the pilot gets zero points for restarting the motor in the air?"

When the motor is turned on the time stops and is not restarted or reset. Since there is no corresponding penalty for winch launched models I don't see why one has to be imposed on electric launch. We are trying to level the playing field as much as possible between the methods.

I have been following the discussion about restarts in F5J. SC2 is not F5J nor is it ALES. I heard several pilots mention during the last season that not having the time start when the model left the hand was not according to ALES rules. SC2 is not ALES it is mixed launch. Again we have tried to make it as equal as possible between the launch methods. We will be working on the 2017 rules shortly. So far there is only one change, requiring landing judges at all competitions. If more clarification is needed regarding motor restarts we can include it.

Interesting. I had not realized that the timing of electrics started at motor shut off. Setting a height limit of 150 meters (492 feet) seems to hobble electric launch relative to winch launch since most of the better winch launches can easily exceed 492 feet. Data from 2008 shows a Supra getting launches of 570 feet. Newer planes are going to get at least that. This places electrics at a 100 foot launch disadvantage right off the bat. Seems this rule really forces electrics to use a below average launch height. Or perhaps it encourages a change in launch strategy from ALES/F5J to reward the electric zooming after motor shutoff. Gaining a bunch of speed just below launch shut off and zooming up.

Interesting. I had not realized that the timing of electrics started at motor shut off. Setting a height limit of 150 meters (492 feet) seems to hobble electric launch relative to winch launch since most of the better winch launches can easily exceed 492 feet. Data from 2008 shows a Supra getting launches of 570 feet. Newer planes are going to get at least that. This places electrics at a 100 foot launch disadvantage right off the bat. Seems this rule really forces electrics to use a below average launch height. Or perhaps it encourages a change in launch strategy from ALES/F5J to reward the electric zooming after motor shutoff. Gaining a bunch of speed just below launch shut off and zooming up.

My list of deficiencies in regards to soaring and competition is pretty long, but I will say that I am a pretty good launcher. I have a variometer in both my Supras which tells me altitude when I nose over after the zoom. On most days at our field which has a 600 foot turnaround I get just over 500 ft. On a GREAT launch with a strong headwind I get 570. I don't think there are a lot of pilots getting higher launches than I am getting.

Some of our sites also have short lines to the turnaround. SWSA is 460 ft.

One advantage that electrics have is that they can range out way past the turnaround if so desired. The winch launched planes are limited to getting that 500 foot altitude almost directly above the turnaround. Another advantage is that an electric can get a good launch every time. A poor winch launch can put you at 350 ft in sink with no place to go, and that happens a LOT. I would love to get a guaranteed 492 ft every time on the winch.

So in the end I would say the advantage is not necessarily to the winch models.

I don't think that an electric launched sailplane should be able to stop the flight time by starting the motor and just give up landing points.
This would be equivalent to a winch plane getting a reflight, in my opinion.
A pure sailplane doesn't have a "get out of jail free card" where it can be boosted to make it back to the field safely, and neither should an electric launched sailplane.

In my opinion, if an electric launched sailplane pilot re-energizes his motor, he should be rewarded with a zero flight score, just as a pure sailplane pilot would receive if he landed off field. Just my opinion, that's how it should be for a level playing field, if that is NOT what you are currently planning.
Maybe I misunderstood the post.
I am all for "mixed launch" if it gives duration soaring a much needed shot in the arm. However, every sailplane should be 100% unpowered between launch and landing, or it's a power plane.

Some of our sites also have short lines to the turnaround. SWSA is 460 ft.

One advantage that electrics have is that they can range out way past the turnaround if so desired. The winch launched planes are limited to getting that 500 foot altitude almost directly above the turnaround. Another advantage is that an electric can get a good launch every time. A poor winch launch can put you at 350 ft in sink with no place to go, and that happens a LOT. I would love to get a guaranteed 492 ft every time on the winch.

So in the end I would say the advantage is not necessarily to the winch models.

I don't think that an electric launched sailplane should be able to stop the flight time by starting the motor and just give up landing points.
This would be equivalent to a winch plane getting a reflight, in my opinion.
A pure sailplane doesn't have a "get out of jail free card" where it can be boosted to make it back to the field safely, and neither should an electric launched sailplane.

I agree, but go take a look at the F5J motor restart thread, we are in the minority!!

Quote:

In my opinion, if an electric launched sailplane pilot re-energizes his motor, he should be rewarded with a zero flight score, just as a pure sailplane pilot would receive if he landed off field. Just my opinion, that's how it should be for a level playing field, if that is NOT what you are currently planning.
Maybe I misunderstood the post.

There is a lot of spirited debate on the subject of restarts on the F5J thread. I hope they work it out.

To me this is a solution in search of a problem. We flew under these rules all last year and there were no issues. If issues present themselves a solution will be put in place. If the rules are not something a pilot agrees with the SC2 end of the year meeting is open to any pilot or interested person. Proposed rules changes are discussed at that time and voted on.

I don't think that an electric launched sailplane should be able to stop the flight time by starting the motor and just give up landing points.
This would be equivalent to a winch plane getting a reflight, in my opinion.
A pure sailplane doesn't have a "get out of jail free card" where it can be boosted to make it back to the field safely, and neither should an electric launched sailplane.

In my opinion, if an electric launched sailplane pilot re-energizes his motor, he should be rewarded with a zero flight score, just as a pure sailplane pilot would receive if he landed off field. Just my opinion, that's how it should be for a level playing field, if that is NOT what you are currently planning.
Maybe I misunderstood the post.
I am all for "mixed launch" if it gives duration soaring a much needed shot in the arm. However, every sailplane should be 100% unpowered between launch and landing, or it's a power plane.

Respectfully,
Target

When I and my little "park flyer" electric sailplanes fly in competition with non-powered sailplanes, it is with the expectation that there are no "free lunches" in the tasks. Simply put: fly the time and hit the landing. No restarts without penalty. The fact that an E-glider can restart the motor to save the model from loss or destruction is nice and I've taken a zero when that happened. Flying a $200 model against advanced aerodynamic models costing $2K or and more is a lot of fun and I'm pretty happy aiming for the "perfect lift and landing" as the point of the whole thing anyway. Ed

"When the motor is turned on the time stops and is not restarted or reset. Since there is no corresponding penalty for winch launched models I don't see why one has to be imposed on electric launch. We are trying to level the playing field as much as possible between the methods."

Tom

Well, since winch models can't restart in flight, E-powered models shouldn't be allowed to do so without penalty. Ed

I wasn't aware of the rule about a restart just stopping the timer, I thought it was a a zero flight. I will wonder how many other people thought this too.

I was going to fly SC2 last year but I don't think I actually made it to any contest for a variety of reasons. I plan to fly some this year with an electric.

I can certainly see an issue. I'm flying an electric, it's a windy day and I'm in a weak thermal. I can max if I stay in it but have no chance of making it back to the field. No problem, I just stick with it, get my time, turn on the motor and fly back.