Thanks much for the input ... it's always reassuring to know that Nisus is listening. While I respectfully disagree with the "solid foundation" gameplan (since it leaves many of us with our ****s in our hands for a full-featured OS X word processor), I must confess that I too am taken in by the interface and the potential for having a full-featured WP. Word is just so awful - and then there's the fact that it comes from Microsoft - so I'm sure I'll be ponying up the dough for NWE when it's released as well.

But thanks for giving us info, and for providing a forum to vent. Just one little thing: before listing "assignable menu keys" as a feature, could someone please get it to work?? This more than anything is driving me absolutely NUTS!

Here are just a few of the things we have added to Nisus Writer since Okito:

* Perl and AppleScript Macro support
* Assignable menu keys
* Autosave, including automatic saving of documents into the document manager so you don't have to interupt your work by trying to figure our where to save your document and what to name it.
* Multiple kinds of tabs, and keyboard controlled tabs. (Try clicking on a tab stop or an indent marker and then using the arrow keys.)
* Ruler editing dialogs. (Try double clicking on a tab marker.)
* Multiple, editable clipboards.
* An enhanced results-based find and replace, including PowerFind and PowerFind Pro (that uses GREP).
* Microsoft Word format support.
* Graphics can be saved directly into RTF
* Automatic page and section numbering
* Palette Groups and the palette library.

When you buy Nisus Writer Express, we want to establish ongoing value to you by adding the features you request and then providing them on a regular basis. That is why every purchase of Express includes a year of free updates.

This actually makes me worry. All the scripting and save \ import \ export options and all the palettes are all extrinsic operations and do not touch the core -- which is word processing options in the document. The core is the same as it was in Okito.
I simply cannot understand the logic behind your order of priorities. Is a frill like palette groups more important than ruler \ paragraph styles or Footnotes?

1) On the positive side: large scale programming projects need a lot of groundwork. For example, Mellel is an interesting program in many ways, but I get the feeling that inclusion of both in-line graphics and a graphics layer may get messy, because it doesn't feel like there is a place in the program's architecture to add them in. Does this mean a re-write for Mellel at some point? Look at their implementation of tables - it looks like the sort of table one inserts now will never be a "pick it up and move it somewhere else" sort of thing, and if it isn't, it will take a major re-write to make the change later (which will no doubt break lots of other features, etc, etc). So... it may be that the Nisus folks, who I'm sure have a list of "I wish we'd done that differently" things from the classic version, are just making sure that all imaginable options *later* will fit into the overall architecture being designed *now*. This is a Good Thing, even though we don't see any current benefits.

2) On the negative side: it may be that Nisus Writer "Lite" (ie, Express) never will have footnotes or all the ruler stuff folks keep mentioning. Perhaps we're seeing the polishing up of the Lite version, which will later be sold alongside the "real" NisusWriter (as is now true with BBedit). In that case, work may be going on now on rulers/styles/graphics that will not be released at all until a version (beta or otherwise) of that "real" NW is released. This seems to have been indicated in some of the comments made in this forum.

My problem with all this: what is the connection between the Lite and Full versions of NW? Will NWE be sold as a $59.95 program alongside a $299.00 NWFull? If so, I don't want to spent the $59.95. Will those who buy now also get the full version? If so, I might buy NWE - but I'm still seeing Appleworks (right now) as a more useful program. Will that still be true in 9 months? If so - if NWE is basically all it's going to be, and NWFull is an unknown products and the connection between the two is "still to be decided", then I'm kind of in a quandry.

thfarrell wrote:Two issues:
1) On the positive side: large scale programming projects need a lot of groundwork. For example, Mellel is an interesting program in many ways, but I get the feeling that inclusion of both in-line graphics and a graphics layer may get messy, because it doesn't feel like there is a place in the program's architecture to add them in. Does this mean a re-write for Mellel at some point?

I had that feeling too about something else with that application. I wrote to the developers and they responded that every new version they have involves medium to major rewriting of some parts of the application.
I don't know if that is bad architecture planning or that they are so good as to streamline the whole application with every release. I don't care really, because the fact remains that they do it fast enough to have a new release every month.

the Nisus folks, who I'm sure have a list of "I wish we'd done that differently" things from the classic version, are just making sure that all imaginable options *later* will fit into the overall architecture being designed *now*. This is a Good Thing, even though we don't see any current benefits.

Planning ahead is always a good thing but you can make plans only so far and no more. The hasty inclusion at the last minute of the .DOC opening option (taken from Abi Source) and all the stuff borrowed from Omni Group doesn't ring like a grand master plan at work.

2) On the negative side: it may be that Nisus Writer "Lite" (ie, Express) never will have footnotes or all the ruler stuff folks keep mentioning. Perhaps we're seeing the polishing up of the Lite version, which will later be sold alongside the "real" NisusWriter (as is now true with BBedit). In that case, work may be going on now on rulers/styles/graphics that will not be released at all until a version (beta or otherwise) of that "real" NW is released. This seems to have been indicated in some of the comments made in this forum.

Renoir wrote:
Planning ahead is always a good thing but you can make plans only so far and no more. The hasty inclusion at the last minute of the .DOC opening option (taken from Abi Source) and all the stuff borrowed from Omni Group doesn't ring like a grand master plan at work.

For what its worth, it is precisely because of our "grand master plan" that we are able to incorporate the work of others so we do not have to spend the time or money to reinvent every wheel ourselves so we can spend it adding other things you care about.

living as i do with all the weirdness that is microsoft, i am happy to steer around the bumps in nwx. i was happy writing with okito. neither have eaten as many files as my fully legal fully licensed microsoft product.

that said, none of that matters as much as the libidinal appeal of this program that makes me want to keep writing. this is why i keep using macs: writing/etc is much more than simply printing mind-dumps. it's the chemistry between what's left of my brain and what i'm looking at. otherwise, we'd still be writing on kaypro buckets trying to trick perfect writer into formatting the way we want it to. footnotes? nwx is lots easier than doing it on a typewriter, which is where i started. so you have to put in a superscript yourself and put the footnote down there at the end of the file. i actually can live with that. it's better than trying to figure out what to do when microsoft decides it doesn't like your paper and rips it in digital two.

so those cool little palettes out there in the drawer: just what i want, pure mindlessness on the technicalities and pure flow of the words.

charles' willingness to get on here and spend time talking with us is an added plus.

I'm sorry, but if NW Express is "feature complete" then you are really missing the boat. So far it is basically a TextEdit app with palettes. Certainly not worth even near $35 because it really doesn't even offer the minimal complement of features to be called a word processor.

Without these, you really are fooling yourself into calling the application a word processor:

1. Styles
2. Basic automatic outlining
3. Footnotes
4. Simple tables

To really step up to the plate I would love to see far more innovative features:

1. How about OpenType automatic ligatures a la InDesign. This is a feature that has never been really implemented in a word processor. Plus support for OpenType to this extent would also assist with foreign languages...

2. Indexing and TOC creation

None of these features would really be considered outside the realm of word-processing and are not really feature-bloat.

I understand that decisions need to be made about what gets worked on and there is pressure to get a product out, but at the same time, I find myself missing good old Microsoft Word 4.0. Applescript support is nice and probably has to be programmed in early but I don't think that it is the most useful of things...

To really step up to the plate I would love to see far more innovative features:

1. How about OpenType automatic ligatures a la InDesign. This is a feature that has never been really implemented in a word processor. Plus support for OpenType to this extent would also assist with foreign languages...

2. Indexing and TOC creation

None of these features would really be considered outside the realm of word-processing and are not really feature-bloat.
(snip!)..[/quote]

Styles, footnotes, tables, indexing & TOC creation were all in NW in classic. I used them all the time and fully hope they will eventually return in NWX. As for OpenType, who cares? What does this have to do with word processing? Sounds like a page layout feature.

We want something that will allow us to munge text like pros while remaining writers, humanists, historians, poets, novelists, educators, journalists, scholars, etc. and without becoming computer experts.

tnagpal wrote:I'm sorry, but if NW Express is "feature complete" then you are really missing the boat. So far it is basically a TextEdit app with palettes. Certainly not worth even near $35 because it really doesn't even offer the minimal complement of features to be called a word processor.

"Feature complete" means we are not adding any more features for version 1.0. We certainly plan to add lots of additonal feature to Express over the coming months and years!

I respectfully disagree, word-processing is about producing documents, generally for other people, and things like automated ligature support which is possible with OpenType allow people to create better documents. The division between word-processing and page layout has always been somewhat artificial and the barriers should erode somewhat.

I fully admit that this is not even close to a necesary option and should be very very low on the priority list, but I just offer it as a suggestion of something to stand out from the crowd (Not that there really is a crowd of decent word processors for the Mac.)

tnagpal wrote:...So far it is basically a TextEdit app with palettes. Certainly not worth even near $35 because it really doesn't even offer the minimal complement of features to be called a word processor.

I disagree - NWX handles columns which TextEdit certainly doesn't. TextEdit also doesn't do headers and footers. NWX has section/page breaks and allows you to see a document in draft or page mode. And the NWX UI is much better then TextEdit (or any other WP program out there)

I agree that these 4 features should be the priority for next implementation(s) [I'll take them as they come out of the oven]. Styles and footnotes probably leading the list. Also better image placement controls in the document is needed for a variety of writing tasks.

[quote="nciancaI disagree - NWX handles columns which TextEdit certainly doesn't. TextEdit also doesn't do headers and footers. NWX has section/page breaks and allows you to see a document in draft or page mode. And the NWX UI is much better then TextEdit (or any other WP program out there)[/quote]

Headers and footers, you really need those for a lot of things besides placing a page number somewhere on the page. Multiple columns is useful. I can page break with the return key for free vs. $35 bucks. Frankly I just can't call NW Express a word processor at this point. Maybe I could call it an enhanced text editor...