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Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

The sternritters were not permitted to destroy SS because the plot demanded them not to (so an excuse was needed to shows us why they didn't destroy SS & that excuse was that they were naive, stupid, inactive, moronic, clueless, arrogant, ignorant, foolish & etc otherwise SS would be in much much worse stated than it is right now).

We don't know if it was just out of naivety or not, at least not yet. There is a possibility that they can't go spamming Vollstandig in every fight, some sort of a limit could possibly exist. And I guess they did what they were demanded to do; creating a total chaos and stalling the other captains while the bosses were to clash. Bach was already on a time limit, so, he probably had too much of an expectation from his subordinates to begin with.
Also, they weren't that much naive, I guess. As Nodt, for instance, didn't say anything like he was going to defeat Bankai Byakuya because he was superior to him and instead, stole his Bankai and used it against Byakuya. They were hardly cautious by any means, though. They lacked observation.

That said, I don't agree with the theory that they are above captain class that easily. They still prevented the captains from using a great share of their power with those medallions. If they were superior in equal conditions, why did they bother to come up with such a trick? Plot armor or not, if you bother leaving your opponent shorthanded through such a way, it means you are probably not superior in terms of power.

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

We don't know if it was just out of naivety or not, at least not yet. There is a possibility that they can't go spamming Vollstandig in every fight, some sort of a limit could possibly exist. And I guess they did what they were demanded to do; creating a total chaos and stalling the other captains while the bosses were to clash. Bach was already on a time limit, so, he probably had too much of an expectation from his subordinates to begin with.
Also, they weren't that much naive, I guess. As Nodt, for instance, didn't say anything like he was going to defeat Bankai Byakuya because he was superior to him and instead, stole his Bankai and used it against Byakuya. They were hardly cautious by any means, though. They lacked observation.

That said, I don't agree with the theory that they are above captain class that easily. They still prevented the captains from using a great share of their power with those medallions. If they were superior in equal conditions, why did they bother to come up with such a trick? Plot armor or not, if you bother leaving your opponent shorthanded through such a way, it means you are probably not superior in terms of power.

The research/science development were responsible for analysing the battlefield situation & in that short period of time, they easily concluded they were above captain class fighters (the fact that techs such as Heilig Pfeil, Sklaverei, Blut (Vene & Arterie), Medallion, Hirenkyaku, Sankt Zwinger are at their disposal makes that statement all the more true). Vollstandig full might should have cleared the doubts easily (if an undeveloped fragile human quincy like Uryu used the incompetent, fragile, discarded verson of this tech to decimate a captain in bankai with ease, what do you imagine an above captain class quincy with developed skills would do with an improved verson of that tech?).

Fact is Bach knew the captains were no match for his sternritter going all out. The captains are outclassed, outmatched & required a reason as to why they weren't all killed (& that was the characteristics of the sternritters).

You you gave the these statements a proper thought (the statements I'm about to show below) you may also understand how highly Bach considers his sternritters. How high a lvl they must be.

"We were never incapable of stealing your Bankai. / However, your power is so great, I suspect none but myself would be capable of controlling it. // For that reason, I instructed Royd not to appropriate it until I returned."

"Juhabach：お前の卍解が奪えぬわけでは無い
It’s not that we are unable to take your Bankai
Juhabach：だが強大なお前の力は私以外には御し切れまい
But anyone other than myself is most likely incapable of controlling your tremendous power
Juhabach：故にロイドには私が戻るまで手を出すなと命じてあった
Which is why I had ordered Royd not to act until I returned"

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Yes, I knew that & I've said it (hence all the manga pages I've posted consist of pretty much all the sternritters).

They are master quincy above captain class fighters & they are no doubt capable of using their powers effectively but those characteristics made them disregard all form of urgency & security http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...6-page-20.html
& as a result of that many of them got killed in the most stupidest way possible.

.Barragan was far superior to Soifon. He would have one-shotted her (unreleased) but his arrogants knew no bounds
.Aizen almost got killed by Gin (even though Aizen is far superior) because Aizen disgarded urgency & security
.Kirge got critically wounded by trash even though he could handle Ichigo GT to the neck & his bankai slash power
.Tousen almost got killed by Zaraki even though he's displayed he can use his powers far more effectively

The sternritters were not permitted to destroy SS because the plot demanded them not to (so an excuse was needed to shows us why they didn't destroy SS & that excuse was that they were naive, stupid, inactive, moronic, clueless, arrogant, ignorant, foolish & etc otherwise SS would be in much much worse stated than it is right now).

The bolded statement is bullshit, just as "captain class" is a bullshit statement, there seems to be a big difference between the weakest and and strongest shinigami captain. They are all mid to high tier characters with different kind of powers and different compatibilities.

Discroll and those other three are "many" now, it's a "few".

Throw some more negative adjectives, it will make your comment look even more reliable. :P Let's go to thesaurus and find some more words with the same or similar meaning. Are you in denial of what they did? They did destroy much of SS because the plot demanded so and it was shown in even shown in the manga. They only went back because their time limit has been reached already.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Fact is Bach knew the captains were no match for his sternritter going all out. The captains are outclassed, outmatched & required a reason as to why they weren't all killed (& that was the characteristics of the sternritters).

Take away the device called bankai stealing medaillon and they are not outclassed. That's a fact too or do will you keep evading talking about it? If you take away the way to enhance their power up to ten fold, than obviously you would be overhelmingly more powerful than that group. So the SR didn't use their full potential and the G13 wasn't allowed to do so without donating it to the enemy.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

What do you imagine an above captain class quincy with developed skills would do with an improved verson of that tech?

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

The bolded statement is bullshit, just as captain class is a bullshit statement, there seems to be a big difference between the weakest and and strongest shinigami captain.

Discroll and those other three are "many" now, it's a "few".

Throw some more negative adjectives, it will make your comment look even more reliable. :P Let's go to thesaurus and find some more words with the same or similar meaning. Are you in denial of what they did? They did destroy much of SS because the plot demanded so and it was shown in even shown in the manga. They only went back because their time limit has been reached already.

7 (apparently) sternritters got killed & look above. They were captain class (you may not want to agree & call it BS but that statement yours has no bearing whatsoever lol while my is backed up by the conclusive manga statement & logic)

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Regarding the issue of who it was that stomped Kenpachi, I see no reason to believe it was Bach himself. As others have said, there was no opportunity for a switch between the two in the time between Kenpachi being defeated and Yamamoto arriving on the scene. Plus, for Bach to set foot on the battlefield before running his 'errands' would risk foiling his whole decoy scheme. It's an unnecessary chance I don't think he would bother taking. Royd possessed his personality and memories and was evidently packing some substantial power; he was perfectly equipped to handle the task of dealing with any Special War Potentials or other issues if he ran into them, in exactly the way Bach himself would have handled them. Royd knew everything Bach knew - effectively he was Bach, so he would have made any decisions using Bach's judgement, exactly as the real thing would have done. Bach didn't need to be overseeing the invasion at all.

Plus, we now know that Muken isn't just a prison, but an endless, empty dimension. That goes to explaining why Bach's dealings with Aizen took so long; it most likely took him some time to even find him in there.

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

7 (apparently) sternritters got killed & look above. They were captain class (you may not want to agree & call it BS but that statement yours has no bearing whatsoever lol while my is backed up by the conclusive manga statement & logic)

Are you in denial that they would have caused far more destruction had gone all out?

Shaz, the Roar, the Question, the Y? Those are four. Add in Discroll, who had no chance against Yamamoto, also Royd, who was shown to be above normal SRs with his ability taking over Bach's memories and techs, that makes six. Those burned by Yamamoto's attack, are not confirmed to be dead, if anything he will be alive like the mohawk guy and As Nodt. And all in all only three shinigami took out those guys, out of those three, one is the main hero another one is the strongest shinigami in the G13 and far above anybody else, while the third wasn't effected by the hax medaillons. Three characters[out of 15-20] who could fight with their Bankai or didn't need to, fair is something else!

Now they are just captain class, not above captain class, so agree your before statement is bullshit. Apparently only you and Torran are backed up by manga statements and logic, funny concept going on here.

Could or should doesn't matter, they did destroy it to a good degree, that's a fact that you can't disagree with.

Don't worry Torran, something is coming your way too, it will take a bit to present your bias in a non overloaded way. Having read the Tousen fight again, your whole argument seems so weak already.

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

The research/science development were responsible for analysing the battlefield situation & in that short period of time, they easily concluded they were above captain class fighters (the fact that techs such as Heilig Pfeil, Sklaverei, Blut (Vene & Arterie), Medallion, Hirenkyaku, Sankt Zwinger are at their disposal makes that statement all the more true). Vollstandig full might should have cleared the doubts easily (if an undeveloped fragile human quincy like Uryu used the incompetent, fragile, discarded verson of this tech to decimate a captain in bankai with ease, what do you imagine an above captain class quincy with developed skills would do with an improved verson of that tech?).

You discard the fact that Mayuri was being naive and carefree at that moment. Also, Kirge has already suggested about Uryuu's potential, so, I tend to think he's not incompetent. Plus, there is no reason to think that Vollstandig's power surpasses the power of Letzt Stil. Kirge drew a comparison about the fragility of the Letzt Stil. We are still yet to get a confirmation for anything beyond that fact.

Anyway, the sentences you provided which I already know of doesn't tell anything about how highly he considers his subordinates. He really doesn't give anything really what happens to his subordinates as shown at the later scenes and that order, to me, is a proof of that. He knew the outcome of that battle exactly. The reason he didn't order Royd to steal it was so that Captain-Commander would fall into trap and use it again facing himself.

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Shaz, the Roar, the Question, the Y? Those are four. Add in Discroll, who had no chance against Yamamoto, also Royd, who was shown to be above normal SRs with his ability taking over Bach's memories and techs, that makes six. Those burned by Yamamoto's attack, are not confirmed to be dead, if anything he will be alive like the mohawk guy and As Nodt. And all in all only three shinigami took out those guys, out of those three, one is the main hero another one is the strongest shinigami in the G13 and far above anybody else, while the third wasn't effected by the hax medaillons.

Now they are just captain class, not above captain class, so agree your before statement is bullshit. Apparently only you and Torran are backed up by manga statements and logic, funny concept going on here.

Could or should doesn't matter, they did destroy it to a good degree, that's a fact that you can't disagree with.

Don't worry Torran, something is coming your way too, it will take a bit to present your bias in a non convulted way.

I wonder if you even know what is being debated. They were killed in a stupid fashion.
.Shaz was trying to introduced himself to an enemy when he should have being on guard
.The Roar became a gaint ape & stated attacking shinigamis in short range
.Loyd copied the characteristic of an individual perfectly but he copied Zaraki (who has the tendency to limit himself for the enjoyment of battle) & thus Zaraki merely had to become stronger than himself.
.The question was ranting on, taking while she should have being focused (she was still in that motion of speaking while her throat was sliced).
. Kirge has proved he is ignorant & oblivious to his environment hence almost killed by Allow & also he observed the enemies that might be on to him thus Grimmjow killed him from behind.
.Discroll exposed himself to Yama in the shortest distance possible & used a bankai he couldn't properly control. After hitting Yama with that bankai he was under the impression that the old man couldn't move at all & thus his stupid assumption caused him his skull.
As Nodt, Mohawk sternritter & NaNaNa all got owned by Yama in a stupid fashion & only Mohawk sternritter was shown alive (Quincies don't use blut at the same percentage. So use blut vene 50 percent & others 30 percent).

My statement is not BS (it's not my statement to begin with, it's the manga's). Your statement exemplifies that very word made up Bullshit. The researched team analysised these individuals & concluded they were above captain class. What right do you have to say otherwise?

Vollstandig should have made that statement even more apparent considering an undeveloped (weaker than vice captain) quincy like Uryu used it (an inferior verson of it) & decimated a captain in bankai mode. A tech that goes beyond the limits (literally).

They destoryed SS by a good amount & they would have done more damage had they being serious (not to mention faster). That is what I'm taking about!!

You discard the fact that Mayuri was being naive and carefree at that moment. Also, Kirge has already suggested about Uryuu's potential, so, I tend to think he's not incompetent. Plus, there is no reason to think that Vollstandig's power surpasses the power of Letzt Stil. Kirge drew a comparison about the fragility of the Letzt Stil. We are still yet to get a confirmation for anything beyond that fact.

Anyway, the sentences you provided which I already know of doesn't tell anything about how highly he considers his subordinates. He really doesn't give anything really what happens to his subordinates as shown at the later scenes and that order, to me, is a proof of that. He knew the outcome of that battle exactly. The reason he didn't order Royd to steal it was so that Captain-Commander would fall into trap and use it again facing himself.

He was decimated. He could hardly conprehend the speed of Uryu & his bankai was SLIP IN HALF!! There was nothing he could have done.

Kirge mentioned Uryu's potential (he thought Uryu should be much stronger) but how is that relevant to that fact that Vollstandig pushes the body beyond it's current limits. It pushed SS Uryu to the max (& beyond) & look at what he did with it.

Kirge is however developed & skilled. He could absorbed not just particles but actually beings themselves & use their power. He even lasted against a current Ichigo to so extent.

I've already mentioned the difference between Letzt Stil & Vollstandig in another thread (which you were aware of). I'm not repeating.

He suspected that likely only him can fully control the power of zanka no tachi (think it though again).

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

I wonder if you even know what is being debated. They were killed in a stupid fashion.
.Shaz was trying to introduced himself to an enemy when he should have being on guard
.The Roar became a gaint ape & stated attacking shinigamis in short range
.Loyd copied the characteristic of an individual perfectly but he copied Zaraki (who has the tendency to limit himself for the enjoyment of battle) & thus Zaraki merely had to become stronger than himself.
.The question was ranting on, taking while she should have being focused (she was still in that motion of speaking while her throat was sliced).
. Kirge has proved he is ignorant & oblivious to his environment hence almost killed by Allow & also he observed the enemies that might be on to him thus Grimmjow killed him from behind.
.Discroll exposed himself to Yama in the shortest distance possible & used a bankai he couldn't properly control. After hitting Yama with that bankai he was under the impression that the old man couldn't move at all & thus his stupid assumption caused him his skull.
As Nodt, Mohawk sternritter & NaNaNa all got owned by Yama in a stupid fashion & only Mohawk sternritter was shown alive (Quincies don't use blut at the same percentage. So use blut vene 50 percent & others 30 percent).

My statement is not BS (it's not my statement to begin with, it's the manga's). Your statement exemplifies that very word made up Bullshit. The researched team analysised these individuals & concluded they were above captain class. What right do you have to say otherwise?

Vollstandig should have made that statement even more apparent considering an undeveloped (weaker than vice captain) quincy like Uryu used it (an inferior verson of it) & decimated a captain in bankai mode. A tech that goes beyond the limits (literally).

They destoryed SS by a good amount & they would have done more damage had they being serious (not to mention faster). That is what I'm taking about!!

Shaz was fodder for plot reason, to show that Ichigo is angry, nothing else.

The Roar used his ability and likely Blut Arterie, how stupid of him to fight the way he usually fights, how incredibly stupid of him using his prefered way of fighting.

We have no information regarding Loyd not being able to use any of his Quincy abilities while copying Zaraki. We don't know if Loyd wasn't capable of growing similar to Kenpachi or not.

The Question asked the wrong questions, bad match-up, a trully idiotic way to die, nothing to argue here.

Quilge had nothing to fear with his experience and knowledge about the strongers arrancar and doing his job as the leader of the scout team for an unknown amount of time, who could have known that someone of Grimmjaws caliber was on to him? It's called suprise attack for a reason.

Those guys were overconfident because they knew they could steal their bankai, it's their own fault for depending on tricks too much. How lame and idiotic this manga would be if none of the heroes or badies had any characteristic flaws.

Vollständig is capable of stealing of others powers and energy, again a hax ability to begin with. I'm not gonna argue about it being strong, that's obvious to anybody reading the manga. We don't know if no one else but the walrus moustache guy used it or not.

About the neck tanking, you do realize that it was shikai Ichigo, that hit him, not bankai. But even Byakuya got through with shikai only Also why does he have to mention Bach about strenghtening Blut?

Re: Bleach 523 Discussion / 524 Predictions

Originally Posted by Torran

I have read the manga over 30 times, individual battles over 70 times and understand it to a point you can't even compare to me. I can pinpoint anything you mention about it, find the exact panel and page I'm looking for and write a 5 page long post about a specific point in a whim with over 800 hours worth of posts across 15 or more websites over the past 6 years. Please don't tell me to read the manga, because it's highly insulting to me.

Reading the manga 500 times doesn't make you an expert on the manga, as people can still miss stuff.

But that aside, you should make fan fictions. I'm sure someone as knowledgeable as you can write Bleach fanfics while being pretty accurate to what Kubo could write. Hell, maybe Kubo will take inspiration from your writing and incorporate it into his own manga. That'd be awesomely sugoi, man. Go for it.

I think Kenpachi got beaten because of the other guy's spirit power being higher. We know it takes certain amount of reiatsu to deal damage, at least back when Ichigo and Kenpachi were actual enemies. I don't see why people are shocked Kenpachi would be injured, especially by a Quincy. The invading Quincies did train to take on shinigami after all, and they kill hollows.

Difference is, I've taken the time to analysis the situations & now I'm explaining that situation so that you may understand it yourself. Those sternritters were arrogant, ignorant, clueless, naive, stupid & as a result of these characteristics, they lost their battle in a stupid fashion. This isn't my assumption, this is a manga given fact.

In a battle where non of that characteristics takes over, against the sternritters, Zaraki will be dead, EVERYTIME. He has no way of defeating a serious minded sternritter who actually uses his or her abilities intelligently & that is fact many (apparently) many ain't able to perceive (or just silence their mind to that point).

wow is someone ever arrogant. if they both can turn into different people doesnt that mean they have the same power? one copies memories and the other copies powers... THEY COPY DIFFERENT THINGS BUT ITS THE SAME FUCKING POWER! two different choocolate bars are at the end of the day still chocolate bars. if they can both transform into people tat means they have the same power just because one has a different variation doesnt mean its a completely different power, thats stupid.

''when they were 12 they realized they can imitate not only themselves but others''

One can copy abilities and the other copies memories but both transform into different people... thats like two sides of a coin lol sooo different , if they were one person they could probably do it all but they are twins for plot device so YOU re-read the manga. your seeing things the way you want and not how they are, your picking at every little thing cause kenpachi got beat.

so the fuck what?

lol it was bound to happen and the thing is we dont even know the sr power levels. as i said royd could be the strongest we dont know but one thing we do know is that he beat kenpachi end of story. he had to be stronger than him to beat him its that simple, kenpachi was steamrolling everyone its no surprise he would get destroyed eventually. just because it wasnt bach doesnt mean someone cant beat him lol

the sr were shown to be on par with captains, so lets say royd is like 3rd strongest under hashwald, that still means in an army that completely wiped out ss in a matter of hours hes still gonna be a monster even is hes 3,4 of 5 in strength, they swept ss no problems. now combine that strength with bachs experience and fighting style theres no doubt he wouldnt win, kenpachi is a simple hack and slash, pit him up against someone with bachs level of fighting and hes bound to lose, even if he was a clone

the thing pissing me off the most about this thread though is that people dont realize that if bach was gonna pick someone to imitate him he had to to strong

lol wtf hes not gonna get the weakest mofo to play him lol youre gonna need someone legit to fool the enemy and apparently royd had the power to do it so get over it, it was kenpachis first loss it was bound to happen.

royd beat kenpachi therefore ryod > kenpachi.

you can be mad all you want it doesnt change it, you can change it in your day dreams of bleach

I think Kenpachi got beaten because of the other guy's spirit power being higher. We know it takes certain amount of reiatsu to deal damage, at least back when Ichigo and Kenpachi were actual enemies. I don't see why people are shocked Kenpachi would be injured, especially by a Quincy. The invading Quincies did train to take on shinigami after all, and they kill hollows.

thats all there is to it, i dont see how people can find so many flaws with one simple thing

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Miyagi

Well, there wasn't a physical impossibility that stopped these SRs from doing what you assume they can do, i.e. fight and defeat Kenpachi as easily as Royd. In that context, your definition of "unfairness" refers to your accusation against the mangaka over giving fodder treatment to the SRs who in turn could give fodder treatment to Kenpachi.

The unfairness comes from them being forced to face a popular character that was about to get some kills effortlessly just to appear cool. The moment it was decided that Kenpachi was going to face Bach/Royd was the moment one or more SR would have to die just so that Kenpachi wouldn't look to bad to the fanbase after such a humiliating defeat.

Originally Posted by Miyagi

I analyze events based on how the mangaka decides to portray them,

Kubo decided to portray them as idiots who didn't put an effort, as shown from Kenpachi's dialogue and their actions with panels to show how they didn't put an effort.

Originally Posted by Miyagi

you analyze events based on how the mangaka, in your opinion, should portray them.

Except this is not what I'm talking about. You said that Kenpachi killing three Stern Ritter was a testament to his strength when in reality it means nothing because those three were created with the sole intention of killing them to inflate a character's feats. "He killed THREE Stern Ritter" sounds nice on paper until you look at the details and it's obvious there died in an idiotic manner.

Originally Posted by Miyagi

I believe this is where we disagree but in any case, this line of thought rather belongs in a "Does Kubo treat his characters fairly" thread, I don't see how it is relevant as a counterargument against my stated reasons.

Your reason is pointless because you are disregarding the details and focusing on the results, and this is relevant because it talks about Kenpachi's strength, not about characters being treated fairly.

The bolded statement is bullshit, just as "captain class" is a bullshit statement, there seems to be a big difference between the weakest and and strongest shinigami captain.

Your claim about there being a big difference between "the weakest and the strongest shinigami captain." is true bullshit.There's such thing as a "Captain class" and that means having high reiatsu and Bankai, and there's no such thing as a "weakest or strongest" captain since all the captains are regarded equal and some better in some areas than others, but all highly capable combatants. What the R&DI meant that the invaders consisted of 16 or 6 high level combatants of captain class or above, which is at the very least true for "Captain class" as almost nobody managed to kill a Stern Ritter, and chances are some of them where "above" (Bach and Haschwald pretty much confirmed).

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Discroll and those other three are "many" now, it's a "few".

Driscoll, those other three, another three, and another one. That's half of those 16.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Throw some more negative adjectives, it will make your comment look even more reliable. :P Let's go to thesaurus and find some more words with the same or similar meaning. Are you in denial of what they did? They did destroy much of SS because the plot demanded so and it was shown in even shown in the manga. They only went back because their time limit has been reached already.

The plot demanded to destroy the Gotei 13, and they did for the most part except for, you know, the captains and vice captains? Those 3k Shinigami they killed will take decades or centuries to recruit but most of the strongest fighters were left alive, including and especially Kenpachi. One second later and he would have been killed if not for Yamamoto.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Take away the device called bankai stealing medaillon and they are not outclassed. That's a fact too or do will you keep evading talking about it? If you take away the way to enhance their power up to ten fold, than obviously you would be overhelmingly more powerful than that group. So the SR didn't use their full potential and the G13 wasn't allowed to do so without donating it to the enemy.

The captains were not allowed to use Bankai and the Stern Ritter didn't use Vollstandig (which is the equivalent of the Final Getsuga Tenshou of a Zanpakutou for a Quincy, not just the equivalent of a mere Bankai) either, so the fact that almost no Stern Ritter fell in battle and most of them were not even scratched talks a lot about them.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

You mean something like the Quilge fight?

Quilgue's fight doesn't count because he had to fight Ichigo. Any other captain class Shinigami would have lost with ease.

What makes you so sure he didn't have a chance against Yamamoto? He didn't even use Blut Vene. If he had, he could have simply tanked every attack with minimal damage and eventually kill Yamamoto with Sasakibe's Bankai. It's still unknown if he could even use Vollstandig.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Now they are just captain class, not above captain class, so agree your before statement is bullshit. Apparently only you and Torran are backed up by manga statements and logic, funny concept going on here.

Only Kay and I are backing our claims with sources and by rereading multiple times while you are trying to argue without evidence and out of memory.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Could or should doesn't matter, they did destroy it to a good degree, that's a fact that you can't disagree with.

They destroyed some buildings and killed some low ranking Shinigami, but what about the captains and vice captains? Most of the strength of the Gotei 13 lies in them.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Don't worry Torran, something is coming your way too, it will take a bit to present your bias in a non overloaded way.

What makes you so sure he didn't have a chance against Yamamoto? He didn't even use Blut Vene. If he had, he could have simply tanked every attack with minimal damage and eventually kill Yamamoto with Sasakibe's Bankai. It's still unknown if he could even use Vollstandig.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Now they are just captain class, not above captain class, so agree your before statement is bullshit. Apparently only you and Torran are backed up by manga statements and logic, funny concept going on here.

Only Kay and I are backing our claims with sources and by rereading multiple times while you are trying to argue without evidence and out of memory.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Could or should doesn't matter, they did destroy it to a good degree, that's a fact that you can't disagree with.

They destroyed some buildings and killed some low ranking Shinigami, but what about the captains and vice captains? Most of the strength of the Gotei 13 lies in them.

Originally Posted by Schabrak

Don't worry Torran, something is coming your way too, it will take a bit to present your bias in a non overloaded way.

Plus, there is no reason to think that Vollstandig's power surpasses the power of Letzt Stil. Kirge drew a comparison about the fragility of the Letzt Stil. We are still yet to get a confirmation for anything beyond that fact.

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Torran

Your reason is pointless because you are disregarding the details and focusing on the results, and this is relevant because it talks about Kenpachi's strength, not about characters being treated fairly.

There're no details, only 3-4 frames where Kenpachi says he fodderized them in his own humorous way. You fill in the blanks with the assumption that Kenpachi has nothing over those guys, I, on the other hand, conclude that if the mangaka deemed it appropriate that Kenpachi could fodderize them, then it means Kenpachi could fodderize them. We don't know how strong these SRs were, so it's totally possible that Kenpachi's strength far outweighed theirs. If it was Yamamoto/Aizen/Isshin who said they fodderized three SRs, I guess we wouldn't be questioning their strength.

Kubo is about to give a power-up to Kenpachi and I guess the next quincy he'll face will be in big trouble. The manga already attributes a certain degree of strength to Kenpachi and his power-up will be even more believable due to his feats. SS fears that Kenpachi will be unstoppable if he gets any stronger, even Haschwald acknowledges that Kenpachi is a monster which earns him a place in war potentials. Once the captains are free to use their bankais, they'll most likely turn the tables on their quincy counterparts, IMHO Kubo is preparing the stage for shinigami's comeback and Kenpachi's onslaught.

Mayuri:This is the end for you!! ...[bankai effect boasting]... Needless to say, I won't be affected, but you will die painfully! Too bad, I didn't actually want to kill you. It is a real pity that I can't use your genius brain for experiments...
Uryu: My Pfeil is faster than yours.[paraphrasing]
Mayuri: Hyahaha!!! Go ahead and try! I can't wait to see you fail!

Yeah he sure wasn't non-focused, but that didn't stop him from thinking that he's above Uryu and capable of handling him. Knowing the enemies potential power and still being confident in oneself aren't two exclusive traits, of course he could have been both.

Vollständig seems to be the stable version, and therefore easier to handle.The fact that it doesn't fuck with the Quincy once used makes it far more usable, doesn't make it stronger overall though, because Letzt Still could potentially be capable of the same, only that Uryu was by far not as good of a Quincy, as his father or Quilge seemed to be, in his that fight.

Re: How did Kenpachi get beat?

Originally Posted by Torran

The unfairness comes from them being forced to face a popular character that was about to get some kills effortlessly just to appear cool. The moment it was decided that Kenpachi was going to face Bach/Royd was the moment one or more SR would have to die just so that Kenpachi wouldn't look to bad to the fanbase after such a humiliating defeat.

Byakuya is a popular character, as well, and he received a humiliating defeat, so, the claim that he won just for the sake of not being humiliated doesn't really make sense.

Originally Posted by Torran

Kubo decided to portray them as idiots who didn't put an effort, as shown from Kenpachi's dialogue and their actions with panels to show how they didn't put an effort.

Analyzing the entirety of the battle from singular panels again? We have already talked about that and there is nothing to suggest it all ended at an instant as it's implied. The Loyd battle wasn't even mentioned.
And if they are portrayed as idiots, well, it's because they are idiots. Kenpachi isn't a genius, either, so, why does that make it unfair?

Originally Posted by Torran

Except this is not what I'm talking about. You said that Kenpachi killing three Stern Ritter was a testament to his strength when in reality it means nothing because those three were created with the sole intention of killing them to inflate a character's feats. "He killed THREE Stern Ritter" sounds nice on paper until you look at the details and it's obvious there died in an idiotic manner.

Not to inflate, but just to make him live up to his war potential title. If the one deemed as war potential was off-paneled, then, it would be the idiotic development on Kubo's side.

Originally Posted by Torran

The captains were not allowed to use Bankai and the Stern Ritter didn't use Vollstandig (which is the equivalent of the Final Getsuga Tenshou of a Zanpakutou for a Quincy, not just the equivalent of a mere Bankai) either, so the fact that almost no Stern Ritter fell in battle and most of them were not even scratched talks a lot about them.

From where you did arrive at this assessment, I wonder. FGT was a transcendental power gained for a temporary duration, while Vollstandig is totally unknown. The almighty Vollstandig so far has about zero feats to back up its feat. Two people used it as far as we know. One absorbed a mindless creature and the other, only used it momentarily on Kyouraku. Certainly, it's not enough to qualify as a feat.

Originally Posted by Torran

Quilgue's fight doesn't count because he had to fight Ichigo. Any other captain class Shinigami would have lost with ease.

That's just your evaluation of the situation. Not a fact by any means.

Originally Posted by Torran

What makes you so sure he didn't have a chance against Yamamoto? He didn't even use Blut Vene. If he had, he could have simply tanked every attack with minimal damage and eventually kill Yamamoto with Sasakibe's Bankai. It's still unknown if he could even use Vollstandig.

Oh? Know, little flies can tank Captain-Commander's attacks and kill him? There is nothing to suggest he didn't use Blut Vene. He wasn't using a Quincy attack, so, he didn't need to use Blut Arterie to be able to command Sasakibe's Bankai. It's only natural to think his Blut Vene was on.
The only reason he was reduced to ashes and the other three that attacked the Captain-Commander weren't was the reasoning point. The Captain-Commander avenged his life-time subordinate, who was like a son to him, going all-out. Others were merely thrown out of the way to the boss fight with Bach.

You don't have to bring pages for everything you are saying. I'm looking back at them while I'm posting, don't you worry about it.
The only problem is I'm talking about how confident he was about his Bankai power overwhelming Ishida's sudden boost, not before he went Bankai.

It's in your first reference that Letzt Stil is said to provide a complete dominance over spiritron.
What does wings have got anything to do with this, anyway? Neither of the Vollstandig performers showed us the same attack power Ishida showcased against Mayuri. As an instance, Grimaniel didn't blow up Kyouraku's head as it should, going by the very same logic.