Tim B

2in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,

3among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,

4and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

6and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

7that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

8for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9not of works, that no one may boast;

10for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Right here Paul is saying first off: we've ALL been children of wrath. Second: God LOVED us EVEN in such a sinful nature. Third: That we were saved BY GRACE and NOT OF OURSELVES. (Also, remember, a man can ONLY come to Christ if God DRAWS the man.)

Hence, it follows that: that even though ALL men were formerly (and many still are) as children of wrath, God STILL and ALWAYS WILL LOVE them, and it will be BY HIS GRACE that ALL MEN, as is ACCORDING TO HIS WILL (1 Timothy 2:4), WILL BE SAVED.

It's inevitable, and ONLY a matter of time (through His LOVE of course).

Does not the word "draw" actually mean "drag"? Jesus said "If I will be lifted up, I will draw/drag ALL MEN unto me." I'd say all men have been drawn already.

Just a curious question . . .

Understanding that we do believe in universal reconciliation, what then is the necessity of getting saved for? If all are going to end up in the same place, with God, then why the importance of salvation? If I don't believe in hell as in the traditional sense, then what is it I'm being saved from?

1st thing we are saved from is unbelief, then we start being saved from all sorts of carnality and fleshly stuff, then finnally we are saved from death.

16) Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".

We are saved from many things, namely sin & death. But also we are saved from: disease, sickness, worry, lying, stealing, wars, famine, cheating, rape, murder, loss, and any other evil thing you can think of.

Think about one of those items: worrying, for example. How often do you worry? Scripture tells us not to worry because God even cares and knows and plans where a sparrow falls. Yet I still worry about all sorts of things. Can you imagine what it would be like to not have to worry about anything? That is being saved.

And Tim, all of Ephesians is great. NOT1LOST on youtube has a good walk-through of it too.

We are saved from many things, namely sin & death. But also we are saved from: disease, sickness, worry, lying, stealing, wars, famine, cheating, rape, murder, loss, and any other evil thing you can think of.

Think about one of those items: worrying, for example. How often do you worry? Scripture tells us not to worry because God even cares and knows and plans where a sparrow falls. Yet I still worry about all sorts of things. Can you imagine what it would be like to not have to worry about anything? That is being saved.

And Tim, all of Ephesians is great. NOT1LOST on youtube has a good walk-through of it too.

We are saved from many things, namely sin & death. But also we are saved from: disease, sickness, worry, lying, stealing, wars, famine, cheating, rape, murder, loss, and any other evil thing you can think of.

Think about one of those items: worrying, for example. How often do you worry? Scripture tells us not to worry because God even cares and knows and plans where a sparrow falls. Yet I still worry about all sorts of things. Can you imagine what it would be like to not have to worry about anything? That is being saved.

And Tim, all of Ephesians is great. NOT1LOST on youtube has a good walk-through of it too.

seriously? You're saying that Jesus gave himself as a human sacrifice so that we will no longer be sick? Then how do you explain it when Christians get sick? You're list seems a bit misleading for me. Jesus tells us we "will" have trials and tribulation but to be of good cheer as he has overcome the world. Paul speaks of having thorns in his side that God won't remove because grace is all that we need.

For me, I like the comments about being saved from death, that was a great insight. I see me also being saved from the power of my "self" as well. But I'm not so sure salvation negates getting sick or never having a bad experience again. I think the things on that list are simply things that living in this realm of the natural exposes our natural bodies to. I'm not saying God won't heal us, but at the same time, I'm also not saying that he always will either.

That would lead into the observation that Jesus didn't heal everyone. There were many at the pool of Bethesda and only one was actually healed that day. If salvation is about not being sick, I would think that everyone would have been immediately healed that Jesus came into contact with.

This particular forum is all about God saving the entire world through the finished work of the cross. So in our eyes, regardless as to whether or not people make a conscious decision to invite Christ into their hearts, their final destination has been taken care of through the cross of salvation. The world "has been" saved from death. But yet, most things on this list that's been posted still seem to be rampant. Which causes me to see that salvation is more about redeeming relationship between God and man, and not so much about eliminating the affects the natural realm has on mortal bodies.

seriously? You're saying that Jesus gave himself as a human sacrifice so that we will no longer be sick? Then how do you explain it when Christians get sick? But yet, most things on this list that's been posted still seem to be rampant. Which causes me to see that salvation is more about redeeming relationship between God and man, and not so much about eliminating the affects the natural realm has on mortal bodies.

hi nathan and blessings.....

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

The sickness isnt physical but spirtual at this time.

being cured of physical sickness does NO good without spiritual healing.

Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick (( kakōs ))

Now that I can see. The list given, for me, is simply the nature of this realm we live in. But in Christ, even though we may be physically sick, we are still spiritually healthy. One shouldn't have any affect on the other.

Now that I can see. The list given, for me, is simply the nature of this realm we live in. But in Christ, even though we may be physically sick, we are still spiritually healthy. One shouldn't have any affect on the other.

Not sure about that, spiritual stress can leed to physical ailments.

never the less, we are still subjected to vanity, and our bodies are dieing.

Now that I can see. The list given, for me, is simply the nature of this realm we live in. But in Christ, even though we may be physically sick, we are still spiritually healthy. One shouldn't have any affect on the other.

Not sure about that, spiritual stress can leed to physical ailments.

never the less, we are still subjected to vanity, and our bodies are dieing.

peacechuckt

But that's just it . . .if there's stress . .it's not all spiritual . . .it's my carnal mind warring with Spiritual truth that causes the stress. And as a result, my body reacts to the power of my mind . . .which is why I believe salvation is saving me from the power of my "self".

Now that I can see. The list given, for me, is simply the nature of this realm we live in. But in Christ, even though we may be physically sick, we are still spiritually healthy. One shouldn't have any affect on the other.

Not sure about that, spiritual stress can leed to physical ailments.

never the less, we are still subjected to vanity, and our bodies are dieing.

peacechuckt

But that's just it . . .if there's stress . .it's not all spiritual . . .it's my carnal mind warring with Spiritual truth that causes the stress. And as a result, my body reacts to the power of my mind . . .which is why I believe salvation is saving me from the power of my "self".

I see us as resurrected "now". But again, like ChuckT we may be saying the same thing, just wording it differently.

For me, I'm not waiting for Christ to return in the flesh, I'm waiting for flesh to be fully transformed into the spirit. There are days when I feel like I'm growing younger, even though my body is getting older. Talk about a conflict within.

I see us as resurrected "now". But again, like ChuckT we may be saying the same thing, just wording it differently.

For me, I'm not waiting for Christ to return in the flesh, I'm waiting for flesh to be fully transformed into the spirit. There are days when I feel like I'm growing younger, even though my body is getting older. Talk about a conflict within.

Amen Nathan.......... Blessings....

Quote

I feel like I'm growing younger, even though my body is getting older

indeed.

2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;

2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

Gilbert

I see us as resurrected "now". But again, like ChuckT we may be saying the same thing, just wording it differently.

For me, I'm not waiting for Christ to return in the flesh, I'm waiting for flesh to be fully transformed into the spirit. There are days when I feel like I'm growing younger, even though my body is getting older. Talk about a conflict within.

Amen Nathan.......... Blessings....

Quote

I feel like I'm growing younger, even though my body is getting older

indeed.

2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;

2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

inlovechuckt

Hi! ChuckT

Jus' sum added comments:

Jesus' resurrection from the dead is not attached to anything of the first creation; it does not fit in with the natural world. It is an event essentially forming part of the new creation. When our Lord emerged from the grave, this ushered in a new era, for He is the first born from the dead. His resurrection holds a promise for a future without death, in which no one will be buried any longer. Death, too, is a conquered enemy who lost his power over all who rose to a new life with Christ.

In the introduction of the epistle to the Romans, Paul writes that according to the flesh Jesus was descended from David, but according to His holy, inner or spiritual man, He was designated Son of God when He was resurrected from the dead by the power of the Father. When He suffered and died on the cross our Lord bore the debt (the treasure of wrath) of the entire universe.

He 'was made sin', but His resurrection showed that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was sufficient to take away the sins of the world. Death, the wages of sin, had no right on Him. In Him death found nothing it could claim, for "it was not possible for Him to be held by it", (Acts 2:24).

The wonderous mystery of Jesus' resurrection is that it contains the secret of our victorious life, for He lives and we live with Him. "For if we have been united with Him in a death like his, we shall (now) certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like his",(Rom 6:5). In his first epistle, Peter unfolds this truth as follows: "By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time".

By the resurrection of our Lord we have been born again to a new life. This completely changed our ways of thinking. We are free from the burden of sin and through faith we live a righteous life. Death has no more rights over us. He may no longer pay us the wages of suffering, sickness and death. He is no longer allowed to oppress us. We are justified through this faith in the resurrection of Jesus. We are sons of God and "we know that we are from God", (1John 5:19).

In a world occupied and steeped in evil there are resistance fighters who have severed all contacts with the occupying army and refuse to believe his words: 'You are evil, you are a sinner and you'll remain a sinner until you die'. The rule of the Kingdom of God is that in the natural world no one will prove righteous unless he has first believed and confessed that he is righteous in the unseen world. So it is that we rejoice; for we are a new creation of God, a new race of kings and priests, God's own people.

Peter not only speaks of a new birth causing a change in thinking, but also of a "living hope". This indicates that we have been brought back to God, allowed to function in spirit, soul and body after His perfect will. We are able to live a life of fellowship with the Lord; and there is nothing more glorious than this, for "the life was the light of man"!.

The power that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us. For us there is a special reason to rejoice, for this salvation is ready to he revealed in the last time. We see and experience things of which our ancestors could not even dream.

The resurrection of Jesus also took away the power of the last enemy: death. Death no longer has dominion over us, for together with Christ we have risen from the dead. We live in the heavenly places, for that is where we walk. When we die we remain where we are in the inner man, that is in Christ. For us there is no death and Hades. "If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death or see death", (John 8:51-52). When we close our eyes there will he no power of death waiting to take us away with him. We fall asleep in the Lord, this means that we function in the unseen world only, just as some one who sleeps. We refuse to be robbed of our glad and victorious Gospel by any spirit of falsehood who may wish to tell the reborn people that they must die.

There is another hope. It says that Jesus loosed the pangs of death, (Acts 2:24). When a woman is in the pangs of birth, the moment has come that she will be separated from her child. When we die, our body is separated from the inner man, and this is a painful matter. At the resurrection, this separation is terminated, and soul and spirit are re-united with a glorified body. This happened to Jesus, but it will also happen to those who fell asleep in Christ. Then together with Him they will rule all the works of God.

Such is the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ! It is a glad tidings of resurrection, hope and glory.

Jesus' resurrection from the dead is not attached to anything of the first creation; it does not fit in with the natural world. It is an event essentially forming part of the new creation. When our Lord emerged from the grave, this ushered in a new era, for He is the first born from the dead. His resurrection holds a promise for a future without death, in which no one will be buried any longer. Death, too, is a conquered enemy who lost his power over all who rose to a new life with Christ.

In the introduction of the epistle to the Romans, Paul writes that according to the flesh Jesus was descended from David, but according to His holy, inner or spiritual man, He was designated Son of God when He was resurrected from the dead by the power of the Father. When He suffered and died on the cross our Lord bore the debt (the treasure of wrath) of the entire universe.

He 'was made sin', but His resurrection showed that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was sufficient to take away the sins of the world. Death, the wages of sin, had no right on Him. In Him death found nothing it could claim, for "it was not possible for Him to be held by it", (Acts 2:24).

The wonderous mystery of Jesus' resurrection is that it contains the secret of our victorious life, for He lives and we live with Him. "For if we have been united with Him in a death like his, we shall (now) certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like his",(Rom 6:5). In his first epistle, Peter unfolds this truth as follows: "By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time".

By the resurrection of our Lord we have been born again to a new life. This completely changed our ways of thinking. We are free from the burden of sin and through faith we live a righteous life. Death has no more rights over us. He may no longer pay us the wages of suffering, sickness and death. He is no longer allowed to oppress us. We are justified through this faith in the resurrection of Jesus. We are sons of God and "we know that we are from God", (1John 5:19).

In a world occupied and steeped in evil there are resistance fighters who have severed all contacts with the occupying army and refuse to believe his words: 'You are evil, you are a sinner and you'll remain a sinner until you die'. The rule of the Kingdom of God is that in the natural world no one will prove righteous unless he has first believed and confessed that he is righteous in the unseen world. So it is that we rejoice; for we are a new creation of God, a new race of kings and priests, God's own people.

Peter not only speaks of a new birth causing a change in thinking, but also of a "living hope". This indicates that we have been brought back to God, allowed to function in spirit, soul and body after His perfect will. We are able to live a life of fellowship with the Lord; and there is nothing more glorious than this, for "the life was the light of man"!.

The power that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us. For us there is a special reason to rejoice, for this salvation is ready to he revealed in the last time. We see and experience things of which our ancestors could not even dream.

The resurrection of Jesus also took away the power of the last enemy: death. Death no longer has dominion over us, for together with Christ we have risen from the dead. We live in the heavenly places, for that is where we walk. When we die we remain where we are in the inner man, that is in Christ. For us there is no death and Hades. "If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death or see death", (John 8:51-52). When we close our eyes there will he no power of death waiting to take us away with him. We fall asleep in the Lord, this means that we function in the unseen world only, just as some one who sleeps. We refuse to be robbed of our glad and victorious Gospel by any spirit of falsehood who may wish to tell the reborn people that they must die.

There is another hope. It says that Jesus loosed the pangs of death, (Acts 2:24). When a woman is in the pangs of birth, the moment has come that she will be separated from her child.

Question: Right here, I was reminded of the "woman" that gave "birth" to the MANchild, her child, and "she" was seperated for a season fromher child, tho she went to the wilderness where she was nourished fromthe face of the serpent. Do you think there are any connections there....?

When we die our body is separated from the inner man, and this is a painful matter. At the resurrection, this separation is terminated, and soul and spirit are re-united with a glorified body. This happened to Jesus, but it will also happen to those who fell asleep in Christ. Then together with Him they will rule all the works of God.

Such is the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ! It is a glad tidings of resurrection, hope and glory.

Hi Gilbert, enjoyed reading that. Just a question or two, one of which Iput within the text. But here's another one. Seems like the "soul" and"spirit" is getting completely saved here, but here we have no "continuing" city, so receiving the "end of your faith, even the salvation of your soul....1st Peter 1:9So it seems that the "body" when "it" is REDEEMED, is the LAST thing?Romans 8 .........we "wait' for the redemption of our body.

So isn't the new "body" put on, the one "reserved" in heaven, for us,when the spirit and soul pass from this OLD body???I mean right then. Why wait any longer? Help me out here with these thoughts.........

Rom 1:16-21 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The rewards of faith in Christ are both immediate and age lasting. We receive "zoe" life from God when we believe and are translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His glorious light. We are delivered from the "domain of darkness" and are no longer "sons of disobedience" under the principalities and powers of this world. We get delivered from the oppression of the fear of death. We are given victory over the world the flesh and the devil. The Joy of the Lord becomes our strength. We receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God so that we might know with all saints what is the hope of our calling, the riches of His inheritance in us, as saints, and we can taste His surpassing power towards us who believe(Eph 1). Free from the debt and dominion of sin and free from the law, having a broken and a contrite heart a love for God. In addition, the punishments of God upon the wicked are real and altho these punishments will eventually produce repentence and every knee will bow, many are "storing up wrath against the day of the righteous judgment of God"- which is a day that is and is to come.They suffer in this life as well as in the resurrection, in the "second death". As Peter said, "Be saved from this wicked and perverse generation". Those of us who are "the first to trust in Him" will be a kingdom of priests in the ages to come "showing forth the glories of His grace", and leading men into His wisdom and love. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? Even as we know God led Israel out of Egypt, setting them free, "but with many of them he was not well pleased, and they fell in the wilderness", we have to remember, "Today, if you hear His voice harden not your heart.....For I said 'They shall not enter my rest'". As there remains a sabbath rest for the believer it is only as we cease from our own works and enter into the "works finished from the foundation of the cosmos" that we will see the full glory without being saved "as passing through fire". So in short, there is much we are saved unto, and much we are saved from, and every benefit for the overcomer who lays down their life in discipleship to Jesus Christ.