Posted - 01/22/2013 : 06:46:24 "Yes - that was me. A goalie is infitely more valuable than the best player in the game WHEN he is healthy, 100% of the time, yes."

Look at the teams who made it to the Finals the last few years and their starting goalies, not many superstar goalies, in fact some were at the time no name goalies. You just need a consistent goalie to go far.

slozo

Posted - 01/22/2013 : 05:40:40

quote:Originally posted by Guest4377

Did someone actually state that if they could have one player for one year, they would pick Ryan Miller (or Carey Price) over Sidney Crosby? Really?

If you were GM for "a day," and picked Miller or Price over Crosby, you would literally be GM for a day!

Yes - that was me. A goalie is infitely more valuable than the best player in the game WHEN he is healthy, 100% of the time, yes.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Guest4377

Posted - 01/21/2013 : 19:22:26 Did someone actually state that if they could have one player for one year, they would pick Ryan Miller (or Carey Price) over Sidney Crosby? Really?

If you were GM for "a day," and picked Miller or Price over Crosby, you would literally be GM for a day!

slozo

Posted - 01/18/2013 : 08:33:37

quote:Originally posted by Alex116

Slozo...is it just me or are you surprised that at this point the Leafs haven't aquired a goalie? I thought, even before Burke's dismissal, that there was no chance the Leafs start the season with the current tandem? With Burke's firing, i assumed even moreso that they were making a move. With norhing happening, the Burke thing looks all that much stranger! Also, i know the Luongo rumours have been front and center but also heard Bernier's name mentioned? Any rumours swirling there on that possibility? IMO, if they are willing to be patient with Nonis and give him a few years, Bernier would be the guy to target although the cost might be too high?

I am surprised - but that is for another topic, my friend.

This here is the TSN Top 50 topic, and includes debate on the top 50 players.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Alex116

Posted - 01/18/2013 : 06:41:43 Slozo...is it just me or are you surprised that at this point the Leafs haven't aquired a goalie? I thought, even before Burke's dismissal, that there was no chance the Leafs start the season with the current tandem? With Burke's firing, i assumed even moreso that they were making a move. With norhing happening, the Burke thing looks all that much stranger! Also, i know the Luongo rumours have been front and center but also heard Bernier's name mentioned? Any rumours swirling there on that possibility? IMO, if they are willing to be patient with Nonis and give him a few years, Bernier would be the guy to target although the cost might be too high?

slozo

Posted - 01/18/2013 : 06:30:47

quote:Originally posted by Alex116

Fair enough Slozo. I actually don't see a ton of Miller out west but seem to recall hearing/reading this long offseason/lockout that there was some concern in Buffalo about his play and whether or not he could regain his form from the year prior and Olympics? His stats don't seem to have strayed so not sure what that was all about?

I still think Kipper's got one more good / above avg year in him, especially if you're looking at the question as i posed it (a one year option). And you make a good point with Rinne and the defensive scheme he plays in. If you were to swap him and MA Fleury, what would each of their numbers look like i wonder? It's also why i'm not big on Smith and why i think Bryz is overrated. I believe "the system" in Phoenix makes / made both of them look much better than they are.

But then again, who am i? Just your avg beer swillin' Canadian hockey fan......

I agree about the defensive systems - the whole is MUCH greater than the sum of the parts.

We saw the real Bryzgalov on a run and gun offensive team in Philly. We saw Mike Smith suddenly look like an amazing top 5 goalie. And Rinne is overrated IMHO, and Fleury underrated somewhat.

Hopefully with a new defensive system in Toronto, Reimer looks like the second coming of Turk Broda and we can argue his greatness next year?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Alex116

Posted - 01/17/2013 : 11:14:37 Fair enough Slozo. I actually don't see a ton of Miller out west but seem to recall hearing/reading this long offseason/lockout that there was some concern in Buffalo about his play and whether or not he could regain his form from the year prior and Olympics? His stats don't seem to have strayed so not sure what that was all about?

I still think Kipper's got one more good / above avg year in him, especially if you're looking at the question as i posed it (a one year option). And you make a good point with Rinne and the defensive scheme he plays in. If you were to swap him and MA Fleury, what would each of their numbers look like i wonder? It's also why i'm not big on Smith and why i think Bryz is overrated. I believe "the system" in Phoenix makes / made both of them look much better than they are.

But then again, who am i? Just your avg beer swillin' Canadian hockey fan......

slozo

Posted - 01/17/2013 : 10:37:39

quote:Originally posted by Alex116

quote:Originally posted by Guest4964

I like Alex's list

Is that the one with Luongo, or Datsyuk?

Slozo, i should have clarified, i was going with forwards for my list. But as for yours.....Miller? Really? That's the only really huge surprise i've seen on here thus far. I'd have though Rinne or Kiprusoff over him and maybe even C. Ward at this point.

Yep, Miller above each of them. Ward would be right behind him IMHO.

I'd love to have Rinne on a loosy-goosy, non-defensive team for once, to see how he performs then . . . and I suppose eventually, maybe very soon, he goes up a notch and passes those guys. But from what I can judge, Miller is more of a game-breaker than them, consistently.

Kipper is getting a bit old - in spots, he can be his old top 3 self; at other times, he's bottom of the pack (like beginning of last year). So he has been downgraded, as obviously the other aging great Brodeur has been as well.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Alex116

Posted - 01/17/2013 : 07:48:35

quote:Originally posted by Guest4964

I like Alex's list

Is that the one with Luongo, or Datsyuk?

Slozo, i should have clarified, i was going with forwards for my list. But as for yours.....Miller? Really? That's the only really huge surprise i've seen on here thus far. I'd have though Rinne or Kiprusoff over him and maybe even C. Ward at this point.

slozo

Posted - 01/17/2013 : 05:46:22 If I am to give my own top 5 for all positions, here is what my list would look like . . . as difficult / impossible as it is to compare defencemen, forwards and goalies:

1) Crosby2) Lundqvist3) Malkin4) Stamkos5) Quick

Of note, my top defenceman would be Weber in the top ten, and I think Chara would probably be out of the top ten now due to age at this point (and declining returns / foot speed).

But honestly, I absolutely hate lumping in all positions together . . . because if, for instance, I am to answer Alex's question:

quote:"If i could pick one player to have on my team (if i were a GM) today, for only one year (this takes away picking a young guy over an old guy ala "keeper" style), who would it be (in this case top 5)?"

Then my top 5 would be almost all goalies:1) Lundqvist2) Quick3) Price4) Miller5) Crosby

See what I'm saying?

So my top 5 forwards - which is probably more the style of what TSN is ACTUALLY trying to say - would be:

1) Crosby2) Malkin3) Stamkos4) Giroux5) Kovalchuk

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Guest4964

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 23:44:20 I like Alex's list

I think that the media tends to overrate points producers, but those of us who think beyong the media tend to overrate "all round" players. Scoring points and game changers are a massive talent. Gretzky (by way of hyperbole) was a one dimensional player, but that dimesion was head and shoulders above other players. Ditto for Mario. You cannot underestimate a 'go-to' guy on a team who the team believes will create a goal in a tough deadlocked game.

Now Datsyuk can do that, but the names mentioned abve him are better at that and thats what leads me to pick them over him.

Thornton in his hey day... yeah I like Datsyuk, but Crosby Malkin, Giroux Stamkos I think have to be considered better assets.

As has been said, its subjective, ... and this doesnt really consider stud defencemen or goalies.

Alex116

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 20:03:05 Beans, i know where you're coming from with Datsyuk. Your quote "but Datsuyk is the only player in the NHL that would be in almost any list of the top 3 defensive forwards in the NHL AND he is a legitimate 90 pt guy when healthy. " is spot on and might be better explained as top 3 defensive and top 10 offensive (though obviously 90pts is usually around the top 10). Question is, are any of the Malkin, Crosby, Giroux, etc group legitimate top 10 defensive guys? Prob not. That's where a guy like Toews comes into play as he's good on both sides, though not top 10 offensively!

Very difficult, but i always look at these questions as "If i could pick one player to have on my team (if i were a GM) today, for only one year (this takes away picking a young guy over an old guy ala "keeper" style), who would it be (in this case top 5)?

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 18:38:39 Beans did i miss something since Ive been gone? Toronto avatar? thought you were all about the oil

Beans15

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 18:34:35 Fair enough Willus. I think most people would have a hard time arguing against Crosby, Malkin, or Giroux being top dog.

That said, I think the Dastuyk has been underappreciated in the media which might sway opinions. I also think he is not unlike a fellow Red Wing in Steve Yzerman. Yzerman played in an era with far flashier players like Roenick, Lindros, Jagr, and Lemiuex. For that, Yzerman is often forgotten for how good of a player he was. I think Datsuyk also suffers from that in an era with guys like Crosby, Malkin, the Sedins, and others who are flashier offensive players.

I can tell you this, of all the game I have watched of Pavel Datsuyk, it is very rare if ever one can say he was not the best player on the ice every night he plays.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!

willus3

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 17:42:21

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

Very subjective to say the least. The definition of 'best player' is not defined. Clearly, TSN's list is heavily weighted towards offense.

Paval Datsuyk is and has been the best complete hockey player in the NHL for the past 3-5 years. Take nothing away from Crosby or Malkin who I would put in my top 5, but Datsuyk is the only player in the NHL that would be in almost any list of the top 3 defensive forwards in the NHL AND he is a legitimate 90 pt guy when healthy.

No contest.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!

While I love how Datsyuk plays the game, he is not the best player in the game. I've always felt he underachieves to be honest. For all of that talent he should be able to produce more offensively. Personally I think Crosby, Malkin and Giroux are all better.

Paval Datsuyk is and has been the best complete hockey player in the NHL for the past 3-5 years. Take nothing away from Crosby or Malkin who I would put in my top 5, but Datsuyk is the only player in the NHL that would be in almost any list of the top 3 defensive forwards in the NHL AND he is a legitimate 90 pt guy when healthy.

No contest.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!

Guest4738

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 15:30:08 I know Canada provides more players to the NHL than any other nation in the world, but it was neat to see that 28 (by my count) out of the top 50 players were from Canada.

FYI - I didn't google backgrounds or birth certificates. I determined the 28 number by just looking at the player's names, and picked out the Canadian-born players by what I believed was their origin.

BTW - I think the three best players in the world are Canadian: Crosby, Stamkos and Giroux.

dgg1412

Posted - 01/16/2013 : 15:14:31 Tough to argue with the top 5 from this season the thing is that TSN changes so much each year. Looks like Crosby, Malkin and noe Stamkos will be there for the forseeable future, but next season who will be the other 2. With a big season Rick Nash could get himself back in the argument, as could Kopitar now that there is more focus on the kings.Look for a big rebound from OV this season as well the top 5 just looks wrong with out him. I love the way Toews plays the game same with Datsyuk but TSN likes the big scores more than the all around players. A player to watch over the next couple of years with a chance to crack the top 5 is Landeskog and 2 years after that Radek Faksa ( dame you Dallas). So here are my top 10 players going into this season