"Teaching in Sidhbari, HP, India from April 4 to 6: His Holiness will confer the Kagyae Initiation on the afternoons of April 4 & 5 at the request of Khamtrul Rinpoche in his monastery Chime Gatsal Ling. On April 6 morning there will be a long life offering ceremony for His Holiness."

In addition, there's a 9th, Chemchok or Mahottara Heruka, who is usually viewed as the combination of the eight....

This is one of the primary Yidam traditions of all the Nyingma lineages. There are Kama and Terma traditions. These days, likely the most practiced "Ka Gye" is the "Kagye Deshek Dupa" which is a terma practice that combines all eight deities into one practice.

Pretty advanced yidam practice.

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

My understanding is that Kagye is the primary yidam practice(s) in the Mahayoga tantras of the nine yanas system. If you mean that one has to have completed Ngondro and perhaps other practices before then I see what you mean but most yidam practices are lik that in the Kagyu and Nyingma aren't they?

I have seen you use this expression (of advanced yidam/dharmapala) a few times for example referring to Nyingshuk Gonpo of the Shangpa Kagyu also as a pretty advanced Dharmapala practice. I have received the wang, lung and Tri for this practice quite some time ago before doing m "Nyen chen"(Karma Kagyu 3 year 3 fortnight retreat). Unfortunately Bokar Rinpoche is not around to consult and I don't have the money to for example visit Khenpo Rinpoche in Mirik at present. So I would be grate ful for any info you may have.

I understand that you will feel uncomfortable in answering this latter question in a forum so please feel free to contact me directly be email Cygnusx09@gmail.com

Well....I think you're more qualified to answer this than I am, but here's what I mean..

In general, the commitments and practice requirements for some of these "advanced" practices would be hard to meet outside of a strict retreat setting. My experience is limited, though, to Kagyu and a bit of Nyingma-related sadhanas. The Sakyapas uphold Hevajra, Vajrayogini, etc., in daily practice, and there is the possibility that the more elaborate Kagyu and Nyingma practices are done this way, as well....so take what I say with a large tumbler of salt, eh?

But normally, the "advanced" practices require more elaborate preparation, take more time (are longer to perform), and/or have certain pre-requisites (like "Gonpo Nyingshuk," for example) that need to be done prior to being engaged. In the latter case, specifically, I believe extensive practice in the "Barchay Kunsel" form, along with "Driptsel," "Lagon Yermay," "NayBab/Khandro Wangdu," and maybe "LhaShi Drildrub" are required first. Therefore, It''s "advanced."

Again, I'm limited to my experience, and I think Nyingma structure their progession differently--but I get the impression that Kagye is not a common daily practice for people outside of retreat. I think there's a short, condensed practice, but the "full-on" Nyenpa/Druppa type of approach is rare. Most of my Nyingma friends view the "Two Stages" somewhat differently than those of us with a Sarma focus do....and they tend to focus on Terma sadhanas that don't require a lot of elaboration--one of the (many) beauties of Terma practices, if I may say so...

Also, there's the argument that the more "advanced" practices are actually shorter, and more condensed--and that the longer sadhanas are for beginners, who benefit from having more elaboration. But, you know, if I were to compare Chogling Drolma with Kamtsang Phagmo (and this is something that perhaps is just silly, in the first place, ultimately)--I'd say that in many ways Phagmo is a more "advanced"practice.....

Would love to hear what others think about this.

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Yes I see the point you are making especially with Gonpo Chagdruk Nying shuk. Although I have received the empowerments I am not very knowledgable on this system. The Nyingma I have exposure to, but I have not been involved with heavilly beyond pointing out instructions etc.

The Kamtsang and Sakya I have a little more experience with.

With Kamtsang Phagmo, the prerequisites are onerous, that is to practice properly the outer inner and secret levels of practice. The teachings are only given in their elaborate form to people who will really practise the yidam properly.

I know at Vajradhatu, even though the Sadhana they do “cuts to the chase” and omits the outer practice, a million recitations and fire puja (Homa, Jinsek) are mandatory to practice Demchog which is the specialty of the Sarma part of Surmang.

Certainly there is no avoidance of Ngondro and at least some Ladrup practice.

For myself, I had to do Ngondro, 5 Ladrups, outer and inner Phagmo etc before being invited to do retreat for 3 years 3 months.

Moreover the instructions on teaching to others are very strict as to the qualifications and pre-requisites of those who can be taught. One is instructed even to deny knowledge of even the existance of certain teachings if there is danger of being pressured.

I suppose all these yidam practices and the Kamtsang Gyal-de-pak sum come into that category of "advanced practices". Then there are the Nyingma practices within the Kamstsang - Vajra Kilaya (Sangtig Purba) Dorje Drolod etc which also have elaborate completion stages that require very pure Samaya. Yet, Vajra Kilaya is done as a prerequisite to clear obstacles for the 3year retreat practices. The Sakya do the same with Vajrapani Bhutadamara. (The Geluk of course would use Vajra Bhairava in the same context)

As for the "short" sadhanas. I have seen many practitioners who have received any of the Gyal-de-pak sum deities for example as a concise empowerment (given in one day instead of two - but yet containing the full empowerment as a blessing) by a lineage holder, then doing these short daily recitations as the sadhana of the deity.

These daily recitations are actually the sort of "spark your memory" and essence daily recitations intended to remind a practitioner who has practiced extensively in retreat of all the essential features of the practice. Yet our Lamas, to be kind, seem to give these as a Sadhana in itself for people who ask for a regular daily practice.

However the person practicing these may not (mostly do not) realize that there is a lot more to the practice and being satisfied, they seek no further. This is a skilful means possibly employed to keep ones interest alive but not break samaya and yet please the people receiving the empowerment.

The Kamtsang is actually very strict in the release of these advanced practices. Whereas in the Sakya tradition you can go and take a whole Lamdre and be geared up for practice for the rest of your life, the Kamtsang has no similar method. The Sakya, especialy with Naro Kacho, set people up where they virtually do not need any further practice beyond vajrayogini and the Lamdu practices.

If one really wants to follow the path of the Kamtsang, there appears to be no short cut.

As I am sure you are aware, Bokar Rinpoche ran a yearly Mahamudra seminar at Mirik each year, which after five years would include Yidam practice. Rinpoche himself found this a beneficial thing to do and I know that Khenchen Bokar Donyo Rinpoche is continuing this tradition. Also Vajradhatu continues with its excellent programme.

I think the truth is we are just scratching the surface. We are ambitious, and as Trungpa Rinpoche has said that is good. All the early lineage holders were ambitious. However, we have to push a little if we are to go forward.

Thanks for that Post. I think the way we practice these things adapts over time...Thrangu Rinpoche, for instance, has been teaching the full Kamtsang yidam practices, Outer/Inner/Secret, in a retreat context that's "in-again, Out-again" which is interesting, and perhaps more workable for some folks. There are also graduated Five Year Programs, or other structured programs, like the one Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche started. But some practices require strict retreat, I think.....

I recall reading somewhere that many Nyingma Three Year Retreats focus on Ngondro, Guru Yogas, and Kilaya, as well as Dzokchen Trekcho and Togal...and that the Mahayoga practices like Kagye and Gongdu may be engaged in as a "second" three year retreat. Can't recall where I read that, but I'd imagine the full Kagye Practice would be quite elaborate, and take time and strict retreat setting.

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Karma Sherab wrote:the contemplative practices of Trekcho and Thodgel are the trolam.

Best of wishesKarma Sherab

if you mean sgrol lam then not really. The drol lam in mahayoga section is in a part similar to the practice of tregcho, but there is no thogal in there. Tregcho and thogal are according to many terma systems basically applied after one has succesfully engaged in the dzogrim with characteristics, whereas drol lam is a path on its own and can be engaged from the very beginning. Actually drol lam is not thaught or practiced in the nyingma tradition these days. They usually practice thab lam as a basis for dzogchen practice. AFAIK only Namkhai Norbu teaches Drol lam according to mahayoga in the West these days and only to students who have taken SMS base exam.It seems to me that Kagyu tradition drol lam and the essence mahamudra are more or less considered to be one thing, although originaly they were two. The essence mahamudra was a pith instruction upadesha teaching of the realised masters and the path of liberation was expounded in different tantras. But if one looks into the texts such as Nedon Gyamtso, they have obviously merged into one system.

Karma Sherab wrote:the contemplative practices of Trekcho and Thodgel are the trolam.

Best of wishesKarma Sherab

if you mean sgrol lam then not really. The drol lam in mahayoga section is in a part similar to the practice of tregcho, but there is no thogal in there. Tregcho and thogal are according to many terma systems basically applied after one has succesfully engaged in the dzogrim with characteristics, whereas drol lam is a path on its own and can be engaged from the very beginning. Actually drol lam is not thaught or practiced in the nyingma tradition these days. They usually practice thab lam as a basis for dzogchen practice. AFAIK only Namkhai Norbu teaches Drol lam according to mahayoga in the West these days and only to students who have taken SMS base exam.It seems to me that Kagyu tradition drol lam and the essence mahamudra are more or less considered to be one thing, although originaly they were two. The essence mahamudra was a pith instruction upadesha teaching of the realised masters and the path of liberation was expounded in different tantras. But if one looks into the texts such as Nedon Gyamtso, they have obviously merged into one system.

Namkhai Norbu teaches "sgrol lam" according to mahayoga?

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

dzoki wrote:if you mean sgrol lam then not really. The drol lam in mahayoga section is in a part similar to the practice of tregcho, but there is no thogal in there. Tregcho and thogal are according to many terma systems basically applied after one has succesfully engaged in the dzogrim with characteristics, whereas drol lam is a path on its own and can be engaged from the very beginning. Actually drol lam is not thaught or practiced in the nyingma tradition these days. They usually practice thab lam as a basis for dzogchen practice. AFAIK only Namkhai Norbu teaches Drol lam according to mahayoga in the West these days and only to students who have taken SMS base exam.It seems to me that Kagyu tradition drol lam and the essence mahamudra are more or less considered to be one thing, although originaly they were two. The essence mahamudra was a pith instruction upadesha teaching of the realised masters and the path of liberation was expounded in different tantras. But if one looks into the texts such as Nedon Gyamtso, they have obviously merged into one system.

According to the Kamtsang tradition, I think this is nearly correct--i.e., the "sgrol lam" these days incorporates some references to the Essence Mahamudra Upadeshas, also the "sgrol lam" (path of liberation) from some Tantric sources....and don't forget Gampopa's so-called "Sutra Mahamudra." In my view, the Chagchen Ngedon Gyamtso, and also Chagchen Dawai Ozer, are a synthesis resulting in an accessible "sgrol lam" largely outside the Thab Lam, though influenced by Tantra. The way "Essence Mahamudra" as a path is explained these days, is that it is for the very rare student who "realizes" at the point of Introduction, and merely carries on the awareness.....all the Lamas I have heard teach on this issue are pretty unanimous that it's for all intents and purposes an Aspirational thing at this point. But Who Knows, really? (Only those who "know"--ha hah!!)

I don't know much about the Nyingma, but I do know the Palyul tradition maintains a path that includes TsaLung, Togal, and Threkcho, which seems to me largely outside elaborate Mahayoga or ThabLam paths (though Tsalung comes first..so, maybe not?) You say there's no Togal in the Mahayoga presentation, but it's included in the Palyul, and BEFORE Threkcho. So, again, a variety of approaches are out there.....

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

dzoki wrote:if you mean sgrol lam then not really. The drol lam in mahayoga section is in a part similar to the practice of tregcho, but there is no thogal in there. Tregcho and thogal are according to many terma systems basically applied after one has succesfully engaged in the dzogrim with characteristics, whereas drol lam is a path on its own and can be engaged from the very beginning. Actually drol lam is not thaught or practiced in the nyingma tradition these days. They usually practice thab lam as a basis for dzogchen practice. AFAIK only Namkhai Norbu teaches Drol lam according to mahayoga in the West these days and only to students who have taken SMS base exam.It seems to me that Kagyu tradition drol lam and the essence mahamudra are more or less considered to be one thing, although originaly they were two. The essence mahamudra was a pith instruction upadesha teaching of the realised masters and the path of liberation was expounded in different tantras. But if one looks into the texts such as Nedon Gyamtso, they have obviously merged into one system.

According to the Kamtsang tradition, I think this is nearly correct--i.e., the "sgrol lam" these days incorporates some references to the Essence Mahamudra Upadeshas, also the "sgrol lam" (path of liberation) from some Tantric sources....and don't forget Gampopa's so-called "Sutra Mahamudra." In my view, the Chagchen Ngedon Gyamtso, and also Chagchen Dawai Ozer, are a synthesis resulting in an accessible "sgrol lam" largely outside the Thab Lam, though influenced by Tantra. The way "Essence Mahamudra" as a path is explained these days, is that it is for the very rare student who "realizes" at the point of Introduction, and merely carries on the awareness.....all the Lamas I have heard teach on this issue are pretty unanimous that it's for all intents and purposes an Aspirational thing at this point. But Who Knows, really? (Only those who "know"--ha hah!!)

I don't know much about the Nyingma, but I do know the Palyul tradition maintains a path that includes TsaLung, Togal, and Threkcho, which seems to me largely outside elaborate Mahayoga or ThabLam paths (though Tsalung comes first..so, maybe not?) You say there's no Togal in the Mahayoga presentation, but it's included in the Palyul, and BEFORE Threkcho. So, again, a variety of approaches are out there.....

Well strictly speaking tregcho and thogal are atiyoga methods, there is no mention of them in mahayoga tantras. Of course in a practice these can be integrated into one session, same way as you can have sadhanas that integrate all sorts of different paths and methods, this is no problem. However if we go into these different characteristics of the teachings and their divisions, then we can conclude that drol lam of mahayoga and the methods of mengagde of atiyoga are two different things. Drol lam has twofold division, there is a direct and a gradual one. Regardless of which capacity one has, the basis is an empowerment into the mandala of the deity. Someone with high capacity can discover the primordial wisdom as their very own state in the course of empowerment - such person can then approach samadhi (here samadhi means remaining in the essential meaning) directly, while the other one must take up a gradual approach. But for both the empowerment is necessary. Atiyoga does not depend upon the empowerment into the mandala of a deity, but on the direct introduction, these two are different. In my opinion direct approach is otherwise same as the practice of tregcho, but the gradual one requires to do shamatha practice. Of course there are also tregcho teachings that contain shamatha as a preparation, however tregcho proper is just the practice of integration in the state of rigpa. Also I don´t know much about Namcho, Namcho practices which are the main thing in Palyul are very unelaborate, I would say that they are in fact anuyoga. Thab lam is not only tsa-lung in mahayoga, though thab lam relies on tsa lung, but the main point is that thab lam is based on thulzhug - the deliberate activity - as a means to lets say have a concrete realization of a pure vision. So for example you have there a tshog offering which should not be just a nice tshog, where we have things we like, but really a tshog without limitations of pure and impure. I heard that Chime Ringdzin Rinpoche would have tshogs with a raw meat, now this is something not everybody likes, but true practitioner of mahayoga should be beyond like and dislike, pure and impure. This is also why thablam is quite dangerous though at the same time very quick. There are also other modes of this deliberate activity such as practicing in scary places etc.Drol lam is more secure, but also slower. Anyway in terma traditions there are many systems which integrate mahayoga and atiyoga into one system, but that does not make atiyoga a drol lam in the sense of mahayoga.

dzoki wrote:Well strictly speaking tregcho and thogal are atiyoga methods, there is no mention of them in mahayoga tantras. Of course in a practice these can be integrated into one session, same way as you can have sadhanas that integrate all sorts of different paths and methods, this is no problem. However if we go into these different characteristics of the teachings and their divisions, then we can conclude that drol lam of mahayoga and the methods of mengagde of atiyoga are two different things. Drol lam has twofold division, there is a direct and a gradual one. Regardless of which capacity one has, the basis is an empowerment into the mandala of the deity. Someone with high capacity can discover the primordial wisdom as their very own state in the course of empowerment - such person can then approach samadhi (here samadhi means remaining in the essential meaning) directly, while the other one must take up a gradual approach. But for both the empowerment is necessary. Atiyoga does not depend upon the empowerment into the mandala of a deity, but on the direct introduction, these two are different. In my opinion direct approach is otherwise same as the practice of tregcho, but the gradual one requires to do shamatha practice. Of course there are also tregcho teachings that contain shamatha as a preparation, however tregcho proper is just the practice of integration in the state of rigpa. Also I don´t know much about Namcho, Namcho practices which are the main thing in Palyul are very unelaborate, I would say that they are in fact anuyoga. Thab lam is not only tsa-lung in mahayoga, though thab lam relies on tsa lung, but the main point is that thab lam is based on thulzhug - the deliberate activity - as a means to lets say have a concrete realization of a pure vision. So for example you have there a tshog offering which should not be just a nice tshog, where we have things we like, but really a tshog without limitations of pure and impure. I heard that Chime Ringdzin Rinpoche would have tshogs with a raw meat, now this is something not everybody likes, but true practitioner of mahayoga should be beyond like and dislike, pure and impure. This is also why thablam is quite dangerous though at the same time very quick. There are also other modes of this deliberate activity such as practicing in scary places etc.Drol lam is more secure, but also slower. Anyway in terma traditions there are many systems which integrate mahayoga and atiyoga into one system, but that does not make atiyoga a drol lam in the sense of mahayoga.

Interesting, I don't want to say that you are wrong, because you are obviously informed, but when I received the empowerment's of Semde, Longde and Mennagde both the Semde and the Longde empowerment included a deity mandala. Kuntzangpo/Kuntuzangmo and the eight female and male bohisattvas for the Semde and Ngondzok Gyalpo for the Longde. The Mennagde empowerment was rather long with its elaborated, simple, very simple and extremely simple empowerment and I am afraid I don't remember all the details. However, in the Nyingthik the empowerment's often include various deity and Guru Yoga empowerment's. But without direct introduction I think it is impossible to practice any kind of Dzogchen anyway.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

heart wrote:Interesting, I don't want to say that you are wrong, because you are obviously informed, but when I received the empowerment's of Semde, Longde and Mennagde both the Semde and the Longde empowerment included a deity mandala. Kuntzangpo/Kuntuzangmo and the eight female and male bohisattvas for the Semde and Ngondzok Gyalpo for the Longde. The Mennagde empowerment was rather long with its elaborated, simple, very simple and extremely simple empowerment and I am afraid I don't remember all the details. However, in the Nyingthik the empowerment's often include various deity and Guru Yoga empowerment's. But without direct introduction I think it is impossible to practice any kind of Dzogchen anyway.

/magnus

Sure, and there is no contradiction. What I said is that the practice of atiyoga is not dependent upon such things as an empowerment into the mandala of the deity, but that does not mean that such empowerment cannot be used as a means to introduce rigpa. Such system is in place because in Tibet practice of the secret mantra was largely prevalent, so under this influence mahayoga was combined with atiyoga. Same way as anuttaratantra practice in Sarma was strongly influenced by yogatantra practice.For example the reason why Longde uses Ngondzog Gyalpo Heruka is that first of all Tonpa Ngondzog Gyalpo, one of the 12 primordial dzogchen masters, thaught Longde Tantras - I don´t think it is the same Ngondzog Gyalpo as in Mamo Botong of Kagye - but the name of this teacher and the deity is same (so maybe there is some deeper connection). The main reason however is that Phang Mipham Gonpo was a practitioner of Mamo, so Vairocana used this mandala to give Mipham introduction and from then on this tradition was kept. Tibetans changed many things so what we receive now is truly a Tibetan tradition of Dharma, although it is certainly rooted in the older tradition of India and Oddiyana. You know, things got ritualized, complicated etc.

heart wrote:Interesting, I don't want to say that you are wrong, because you are obviously informed, but when I received the empowerment's of Semde, Longde and Mennagde both the Semde and the Longde empowerment included a deity mandala. Kuntzangpo/Kuntuzangmo and the eight female and male bohisattvas for the Semde and Ngondzok Gyalpo for the Longde. The Mennagde empowerment was rather long with its elaborated, simple, very simple and extremely simple empowerment and I am afraid I don't remember all the details. However, in the Nyingthik the empowerment's often include various deity and Guru Yoga empowerment's. But without direct introduction I think it is impossible to practice any kind of Dzogchen anyway.

/magnus

Sure, and there is no contradiction. What I said is that the practice of atiyoga is not dependent upon such things as an empowerment into the mandala of the deity, but that does not mean that such empowerment cannot be used as a means to introduce rigpa. Such system is in place because in Tibet practice of the secret mantra was largely prevalent, so under this influence mahayoga was combined with atiyoga. Same way as anuttaratantra practice in Sarma was strongly influenced by yogatantra practice.For example the reason why Longde uses Ngondzog Gyalpo Heruka is that first of all Tonpa Ngondzog Gyalpo, one of the 12 primordial dzogchen masters, thaught Longde Tantras - I don´t think it is the same Ngondzog Gyalpo as in Mamo Botong of Kagye - but the name of this teacher and the deity is same (so maybe there is some deeper connection). The main reason however is that Phang Mipham Gonpo was a practitioner of Mamo, so Vairocana used this mandala to give Mipham introduction and from then on this tradition was kept. Tibetans changed many things so what we receive now is truly a Tibetan tradition of Dharma, although it is certainly rooted in the older tradition of India and Oddiyana. You know, things got ritualized, complicated etc.

These empowerment's I am talking about are from Longchenpa. I received them as a part of the Dam Ngakdzo. They are not like ordinary empowerment's at all, but they got a mandala. I think you will have a very difficult time proving that these empowerment's are a synthesis of Mahayoga and Atiyoga. In that case the ripgpai-tsal-wang that ChNNR gives, at least the few I received, contain more Mahayoga influences. Anyway, it doesn't really matter I think, it is all theory.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

heart wrote:These empowerment's I am talking about are from Longchenpa. I received them as a part of the Dam Ngakdzo. They are not like ordinary empowerment's at all, but they got a mandala. I think you will have a very difficult time proving that these empowerment's are a synthesis of Mahayoga and Atiyoga. In that case the ripgpai-tsal-wang that ChNNR gives, at least the few I received, contain more Mahayoga influences. Anyway, it doesn't really matter I think, it is all theory.

/magnus

Well same goes for Nyingma Kama, except for semde wang which is more in the style of ati than anything else given these days. Longchenpa was also a part of tradition that was being handed down for some centuries already, when he lived. If you received Yeshe Zangthal introduction from NNR, then that is purely atiyoga style.True this is all just a theory, since in practical sense all is applied as you mentioned above. In any case my argument in the beginning was that the path of mahayoga drol lam and atiyoga mengagde are two different things. Looking back at this whole thread, it is indeed a manifestation of namtog (as are most of the other threads, he on dharmawheel ).