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Topic: Talk to me about: the Stooping Hawk (Read 4065 times)

I'm slowly putting together a force of Clan omnis, and I really like the look and general concept of the Stooping Hawk. That said, I've played with a few variants (the Prime and the F, mostly) in MM and have had a hard time figuring out exactly what its niche is. Given the likelihood of the Hawk coming back into rotation at the end of IWM's February poll, I'd like to decide how many to order (for conversion to different variants) ahead of time. As such, I'd really appreciate any perspective more experienced players could offer me on this high-tech 55-tonner and its variant configurations.

Used to be a favourite of mine for a long time, mainly due to the mini and SFE. It stacks up well against the Huntsman and Stormcrow, is clearly superior to the Nova in every role but BA taxi. The Prime s effective, but will depend heavily on the UAC/10 and not all players like that gun. The A is a great mech, jumpy and can fire all day long. A better Nova A. The B is fantastic for the 10-11 rounds it can pump out LRMs. It works for Trials, but if you have the option of dropping the Artemis for ammo/sinks, its worth doing. The C is a lot like the Summoner D, and is a good mech for most occasions. The D isn't bad, its a decent option and one of the better heavy laser configs. The E is alright, depending on your feelings about small ATM racks.

I want to buy one just for the C configuration. 55 tonners moving 5/8/5 are my favorite type mech. If it has a SFE even better. Stuff like the Starslayer. The C with it's all energy plus a targeting computer make it look like a perfect mech to me, at least for fighting other mechs.

The F configuration is just disturbing. Put a good pilot in there and it will tear through enemy 'Mechs like they're made of tissue paper.

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The G is dead cheap and can throw a fair bit of firepower down the 15-hex range.

Besides, the PAC can in fact use flak and tracer ammo. They are marked as IS/Clan and the PAC is marked "DB,S" - "PAC" was simply forgotten off of the "Used By" list. It's been noted and will likely soon appear on errata.

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I've used the Prime to some pretty decent success. You can't use the Autocannon while you're shuffling Battle Armor around, but at the same time, the 4 lasers still pack a pretty decent punch. Jumping for a +3 mod means that at range your opponent isn't likely landing much, and its durability can be a wonder to behold. If I played with custom configs, I'd probably leave the prime pretty much as-is, but move the two ERMLs to the center torso, to really take advantage of it's SFE durability. Having two hand-actuators is really cool too, to help give the full benefit of paying for a Clan Regular pilot.

Its a compitent chassis, but its got some very modern, well thought out configurations that alow it to really shine relititive to a lot of the more popular high end mediums. On the whole, SFEs don't do much for me on Clan mechs, since their XLs aren't the sort of death sentance they are on IS mechs (where I still don't really mind them), but the Stooping Hawk has a nice habbit of mounting a lot of weapons on its centerline, so it does make the most of their resiliance in several configurations.

XLFE Clan Mechs always made me think of 'Oh, I didn't want that arm anyways.' when the side torso blew. On the other hand, the Stooping Hawk's SFE allows to be competitive in price point. I mean, if you can get two Stooping Hawks for the same cost as a Storm Crow, you're coming out ahead.

I've never seen the Clans as having quite the same view of cost as... well, people who are aware of things like math. The Spirits come the closest to being an exception, true, but its still problematic.

That said, I'd argue that only the modern design alows the Stooping Hawk to be a legitimate competitor to XLed mediums. The Stormcrow doesn't jump, the Huntsman fixes the jets and has its share of funky veriants (too many low end ACs!), the Nova has no advanced chassis features, fixed jets, and wild ass veriants, and so on. But when you look at some of the good, modern Huntsmen or some of the hot Periah veriants and really take a look at what can be done with that extra weight from the XL, I think you have to wonder why you'd ever think a standard engine would be a good idea.

I really wish it was more common but it seems pretty much limited to the Dominion these days. I bet they mix well with the Karhu, though. Lots of nasty infighters and the Karhu Prime can even nearly keep up with the Stooping Hawk F. Not a bad fit at all.

I love the Stoopid Hawk. It's a great duelist, even above it's weight class. And the F (as others have stated) is scary. My Stooping Hawk has been the scourge of several games.

Use it a striker, or a hunter mech (it can easily bring down big game in the right terrain). Don't let it be a taxi, that'll only slow it down.

I think in an urban fight, where it can easily move to a position entirely out of LoS, it works well to drop off a point of faster jump suits, like Elementals, but I wouldn't want it to be carrying around the BA for an extended amount of time in the fight.

Also, people keep mentioning the F, but having a long jumper where significant amounts of its firepower is in heavy mediums just doesn't work well. Replace those heavy mediums with ER mediums, and *that* is a scary design.

Up side to the heavies is that it keeps BV down, which is nice. And, what better mech to use HMLs on than one where you can be pretty darn sure of being able to get with in three hexes of your opponent, and that also has the toughness to hang there. I'd love to see a TC, since jumping plus heavy lasers is rough on TNs, but when you've sunk that much weight into your SFE and IJJs, heavies and their high damage to weight represent a good direction to go.

Honestly, in retrospect, if I had to redesign the F I would have used IHL's for the mediums and the small but I wanted to go tournament legal.

Here's how you use the F. The thing is stupidly mobile, and I actually refuse to play it in friendly games because it can be an absolute nightmare to hunt down, being able to get a +4 TMM pretty much whenever the hell it wants to, and be able to throw out 50odd points of damage. Some large thing hiding in the woods? Flushed out. Long duel with things that are hyper accurate? Use the IJJs and keep cover on your side. Seriously, if moved correctly, one of the few reliable ways to put it down is orbital fire. Most other 8 jumpers are on the fairly fraigle side or don't carry a lot of throw weight. Worried about the heat? You can fire two out of three weapon pairs while jumping and be in good shape.

And I love the G. The damned thing drives itself. Perfect heat dissipation, same weapon brackets all the way around. When you're driving a Binary or so and the turns are fast paced, such as at GenCon, a machine like that is a Deitysend.

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(4:37:55 PM) moonsword134: You're a bastard.(4:38:11 PM) moonsword134: And so's the talking whiskey monkey who lives in bottles of tequila to give you ideas.

(4:52:52 PM) ShinjoJinturi: simply by having tag on the field, even in a game that appears to not have any lrms or arrows on the board, you can inspire fear

I also loved the old Pouncer H, and this in its way does remind me of it. Though as I said I'd almost rather see it as H-ier, with four HMLs rather than the miss matched pulse/heavy pairs, a TC and an extra sink. Yes, it would objectively be a lot worse against anything but the slowest, easiest to hit targets, but the disconnect between pulse and heavy lasers, the three TN difrence, always makes me crazy. Do you try to drive the TNs down and maximize the heavies, or drive the TNs up and maximize the pulse lasers (the streak thankfuly works with either, since it won't fire on a miss and all the missiles hit on a hit, so it loves either high or low numbers)? Either go all pulse (given heat issues, you can drop a few sinks and get the fourth pulse laser in there) and be the most hated player in your group since the guy who put stealth armor on his Vapor Eagle, or go all heavies and play for pure power and be respected for being a bit nuts.

I also loved the old Pouncer H, and this in its way does remind me of it. Though as I said I'd almost rather see it as H-ier, with four HMLs rather than the miss matched pulse/heavy pairs, a TC and an extra sink. Yes, it would objectively be a lot worse against anything but the slowest, easiest to hit targets, but the disconnect between pulse and heavy lasers, the three TN difrence, always makes me crazy. Do you try to drive the TNs down and maximize the heavies, or drive the TNs up and maximize the pulse lasers (the streak thankfuly works with either, since it won't fire on a miss and all the missiles hit on a hit, so it loves either high or low numbers)? Either go all pulse (given heat issues, you can drop a few sinks and get the fourth pulse laser in there) and be the most hated player in your group since the guy who put stealth armor on his Vapor Eagle, or go all heavies and play for pure power and be respected for being a bit nuts.

Why would that make you your groups most hated player? There are canon all-pulse long jumpers, so it's nothing new really. Just putting heavy lasers on a mech designed for jumping as a primary mode of movement and defense is stupid. Heavy lasers are best on mechs with good ground speed.

Why would that make you your groups most hated player? There are canon all-pulse long jumpers, so it's nothing new really. Just putting heavy lasers on a mech designed for jumping as a primary mode of movement and defense is stupid. Heavy lasers are best on mechs with good ground speed.

Honestly, my experience is that heavy lasers work best when you do not have the free mass to push past your existing sinks which usually means super fast moving lights or adding a cheap bracketing solution to a primarily long ranged heavy/assault like my Timber Wolf H-2 configuration.

Why would that make you your groups most hated player? There are canon all-pulse long jumpers, so it's nothing new really. Just putting heavy lasers on a mech designed for jumping as a primary mode of movement and defense is stupid. Heavy lasers are best on mechs with good ground speed.

Its certainly true, jumping mechs are much, much more amenable to weapons that lower TNs than to thouse than raise them (though that's true for nearly any mech to a greater or lesser degree). But, the whole point is that simply making a mech that most optimum it can be isn't really what designing a mech and playing a mech is all about. The F's actual designer seems to have wanted the missmatch, which I can respect even if I don't care for it myself. What I want to suggest is that the all heavy design, by being 'worse' than a design that includes pulse lasers, is 1) more elegant, 2) easier to use, 3) better rewards the sort of risks I endorse, and 4) less likely to earn the ire if your opponents.

As for use, a lot of high jump mechs like to use their jump to stay at range to their opponents, which is sensable because getting high jump usually involves being on the smaller side, with relatively less armor and power. Even the Clan mediums that can hit seven jump, however, aren't as tough as the Stooping Hawk. The result is that the Stooping Hawk, either in its canon F variant, or in a proposed all Heavy laser variant, or even in its canon D variant, is right at home three hexes from its opponent, where the high TNs from its lasers and jets mean the least. Yes, you'd be better served to be able to run into that three hex range, or to be able to walk into it, but the sort of mechs that can run and walk that fast yet still serve up thouse sort of high TNs (and that can get there and stay there in the first place) can't hope to take the sort of return fire that a mech with that damage potential at that range draws. IJJs, as much as I don't approve of their growing ubiquitousness, are a blessing for mechs that are big and tough and want to be infighters, but arn't nessissarily quick enough to get to and stay in infighting range. And if you're going to do that, you may as well do it with 40 potental laser damage than 28, TNs or no TNs.

As for why no one would ever want to play with someone who brings a 5/8/8 pulse-based Stooping Hawk to their game... if you have to ask, I can't explain it, I don't think. But unless it was just that sort of game where everyone brough out their crazy stuff, I know I'd be a bit put off by it.

If they don't, well, only good configurations saves it from being stomped on by similar XL equipped clan Mediums/Heavies.

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...As for why no one would ever want to play with someone who brings a 5/8/8 pulse-based Stooping Hawk to their game... if you have to ask, I can't explain it, I don't think. But unless it was just that sort of game where everyone brough out their crazy stuff, I know I'd be a bit put off by it.

He may run better pilots more often than not. For example, I favor an elite (1/2) pilot in a Supernova which lets me laugh at the pulse jumpers because they simply cannot get their TNs high enough to offer real protection. After all, if they are in MPL range the ERLLs are going to be at short or medium range so I get 1(piloting)+2(range)+4(TMM)+0(standing)=7 which is going to result in a very dead pulse jumper because I have a whole lot more armor and firepower.

Well, given that a Supernova can only really use four of thouse ER LLs, its closer to 10:7 for the lasers' damage, not counting any SSRMs left on this hypothetical mech. As I look at your numbers, I see that you've ignored terrain, or the notion that a mech with eight jump could get into a Supernova's rear and force it to move (or force it to move in other ways); I think a clever pilot could keep TNs at 8 or 9 easily enough, perhaps less if you close in past eight hexes (ER LLs are a very good choice to counter MPLs). It would be rough, but I think if there were a bit of terrain and you had a bit of cleverness, you could get it to the point where it would come down to good or bad rolls. Which, against a mech 60% heavier with an elite pilot, is quite high praise. And evidance of why you could really only bring such a mech out in that sort of game.

Well, given that a Supernova can only really use four of thouse ER LLs, its closer to 10:7 for the lasers' damage, not counting any SSRMs left on this hypothetical mech. As I look at your numbers, I see that you've ignored terrain, or the notion that a mech with eight jump could get into a Supernova's rear and force it to move (or force it to move in other ways); I think a clever pilot could keep TNs at 8 or 9 easily enough, perhaps less if you close in past eight hexes (ER LLs are a very good choice to counter MPLs). It would be rough, but I think if there were a bit of terrain and you had a bit of cleverness, you could get it to the point where it would come down to good or bad rolls. Which, against a mech 60% heavier with an elite pilot, is quite high praise. And evidance of why you could really only bring such a mech out in that sort of game.

That is all possible, although the Supernova does have some design issues that cause problems here as you pointed out. You can easily make a variant with a whole lot more armor and DHS to improve the effective firepower and give it a further leg up in survivability over the lighter machine. Also remember that armor can very easily win fights which is the biggest reason I think it would tend to have the advantage here when combined with superior penetration to increase the odds of knocking out something important quickly.

You also get a similar but much more significant advantage with the better designed Hellstar due to its thicker armor and further increased penetrating power.

Well, to actualy talk about the Stooping Hawk for a moment... If the terrain were right and for some reason I just had to take one against some monster of an assualt mech, there are other intresting choices.

In open terrain, especaly against the Hellstar, I'm looking at the C. Yes, its only got a two hex edge, and you need the theroetical infinate map to work it, but its as good a stratigy as any other against that monstrosity. The C's got a monster BV, so this doesn't really exploit that (its only about 360 less than the Supernova, which matchs its range, so its not as good a choice for that)

With a piloting advantage, you can almost do that with the A against the Supernova. Twin PPCs vs quad (usable) ER LLs gives up some power, but if you're hitting more often, both due to your movement edge and the pilot your (less than you'd think) lower BV gets you, its not impossible. I'd definaly be prepaired to try it, even if I didn't like my odds (I almost took a Night Gyr Prime with one once, taking a 2/3 against a 3/4 for skills).

Another I might take is the D. It's ground bound, so you need terrain to close, but not so rough that you can't keep up with the 3/5/3 assualt you're fighting. But, its huge array of heatsinks give it throw weight above the problematicly dissapated Supernova and in the ballpark of the monstrous Hellstar. And, with BV the better part of a thousand points below the large laser machine and just about 60% of Mr PPC's, you really can exploit that in terms of pilot skills or supporting forces (how about a Chaeronea to help even things out? or a Huitzilopochtli? BVs on both look like they fit for the Hellstar fight).

If I'm doing the BV thing, I just might try the even cheaper E. The ATM ER rounds can snipe, and the LB can throw a bunch of dice rolls out there to hope for the golden BB...

Not ideal in any case, but hardly worse than a Stormcrow or Hunstman (the Periah/Septicemia has some nice modern veriants I like, so I might take it if I could in this fight).

For cost, I think Clan 'Mechs use the IS numbers just so they have them, after all Clanners paying by C-bill doesn't actually make a lot of sense and Clan gear is going to be worth more then equivalent IS stuff

Also I think someone needs to do some work on the wiki,the F and G are listed as being JIHAD models, and I doubt the Spirits where involved in that conflict

For cost, I think Clan 'Mechs use the IS numbers just so they have them, after all Clanners paying by C-bill doesn't actually make a lot of sense and Clan gear is going to be worth more then equivalent IS stuff

Also I think someone needs to do some work on the wiki,the F and G are listed as being JIHAD models, and I doubt the Spirits where involved in that conflict

They existed during that era, didn't they?

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(4:37:55 PM) moonsword134: You're a bastard.(4:38:11 PM) moonsword134: And so's the talking whiskey monkey who lives in bottles of tequila to give you ideas.

(4:52:52 PM) ShinjoJinturi: simply by having tag on the field, even in a game that appears to not have any lrms or arrows on the board, you can inspire fear

For cost, I think Clan 'Mechs use the IS numbers just so they have them, after all Clanners paying by C-bill doesn't actually make a lot of sense and Clan gear is going to be worth more then equivalent IS stuff

I am inclined to agree, especially with the way the Clans throw around XLEs without any apparent trouble.