The UK parliament has spent 7 years and over 700 hours arguing over banning hunting with dogs. After a cliff-hanger tussle between the two houses of Parliament the bill has been passed. All supposedly on the basis of members concerns about animal welfare.

Now a ministerial aide reportedly has admitted the main motivation of Tony Blair's backbenchers is classe hatred, i.e. the bill was a vehicle for striking at landowners.

Personally I do not like fox hunting or deer coursing but am not given to wanting to ban everything I disapprove of and/or dislike.

My concern is that this move in England, the Scots have already done it, may be used by others who will use this as the first step in a rolling programme, hunting with dogs today, fishing tomorrow, animal husbandry next and then pet owning. Each time a moral 'logic' for the relevant step.

I saw some of these folks when over there protesting live animal exports. Barracking trucks full of sheep and running up banging on the side panels. And there are concerned about the stress of transportation on sheep? From what I saw I frankly do not believe it. I have seen farmers with more practical and emotional connection and concern with their stock than these peculiar people.........

You know, the PETA HQ is in my hometown of Norfolk, VA., on or near the waterfront. I wonder if these people have a fumigation service or do they work with the ubiquitous southern 'waterbugs' -cockroaches- as protected animals among them, in their desks and fridges? Do they offer themselves up as willing sacrifices to the famous Hampton Roads Asian Tiger mosquitoes?

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

I wonder if these people have a fumigation service or do they work with the ubiquitous southern 'waterbugs' -cockroaches- as protected animals among them, in their desks and fridges? Do they offer themselves up as willing sacrifices to the famous Hampton Roads Asian Tiger mosquitoes?

LOL, good question! Maybe you could give them a ring and find out for us.

Fish actually have much more than a 5 second memory. This may touch a sore point with me; I keep tropical fish and try to keep myself educated about them. The average goldfish or betta can be taught to do tricks. Goldfish themselves are intelligent and will live for 20 years in a healthy environment. The larger a fish is, generally, the more intelligent it is. Oscars, Angelfish, and other larger fish (especially cichlids) recognize their owners and have extremely diverse and complicated behavior. They display tool-using much as some of the ape family do. All in all, it's very easy to believe that the large food-fish are intelligent, and anyone who's ever watched a fish react to pain knows that they have a sophisticated nervous system.

If people want to encourage a vegetarian/non-abusive carnivorous lifestyle, then I'm all for it. PETA might be crazy in a lot of ways, but there's nothing wrong with trying to uphold our roles as caretakers of the earth and all creatures within it better than we currently are, and that includes providing adequate and humane care for the animals that we harvest as food.

Fish actually have much more than a 5 second memory. This may touch a sore point with me; I keep tropical fish and try to keep myself educated about them. The average goldfish or betta can be taught to do tricks. Goldfish themselves are intelligent and will live for 20 years in a healthy environment. The larger a fish is, generally, the more intelligent it is. Oscars, Angelfish, and other larger fish (especially cichlids) recognize their owners and have extremely diverse and complicated behavior. They display tool-using much as some of the ape family do. All in all, it's very easy to believe that the large food-fish are intelligent, and anyone who's ever watched a fish react to pain knows that they have a sophisticated nervous system.

If people want to encourage a vegetarian/non-abusive carnivorous lifestyle, then I'm all for it. PETA might be crazy in a lot of ways, but there's nothing wrong with trying to uphold our roles as caretakers of the earth and all creatures within it better than we currently are, and that includes providing adequate and humane care for the animals that we harvest as food.

Yes goldfish can learn to do tricks. I have an aquarium[with out a cover] with three goldfish. I also have a cat. Since my cat is on the stupid side, he will never drink water out of his bowl. The toilet, the bathtub,and the aquarium are better than the bowl. Well whenever my cat coems to drink of the aquarium, the biggest fish comes up to him and splashes him right in the face lol. Altho, that fish is disobedient and has also done taht to me.

I agree with a lot of things you say in this post. I used to keep large cichlids in aquariums and my interest is piqued strongly whenever I see somebody talking about them. I think, though, that some fish are not all that bright, but are more like automatons, programmed to behave in a certain way. I think that some fish deFINitely are very smart, and able to feel pain. But I think perhaps some don't have a well-enough developed cerebral cortex to do so. The native freshwater basses (centrarchids) seem a lot like cichlids to me: very porpoiseful (sorry) in their movements, and very curious about their surroundings. I've always been fascinated by fish, they live on the same planet but in such a different envvironment.

Once I fed goldfish to my oscars, and I never did it again. I could have sworn that I saw terror in the eyes in one of the goldfish. Perhaps I am anthropomorphising too much here, I don't know.

Maybe the cat drinks out of the aquarium because there's more..."flavour" to the water with the fish.

For information: There are some who maintain that Jesus was a vegetarian and even a "Raw Foodist" (i.e. No cooking) citing the "Essene Gospel of Peace". which is not a true Gospel, nor yet iirc Essene nor ancient.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

There is something wrong when organizations like PETA have the ear of congress and force their "morales" on the rest of us. Remember when PETA was pushing the government to give animals the same rights as humans? PETA does not make any distinction between the animal world and the world of the Human Being. This is their mindset. All creatures are equal to them. Killing an animal for food is just as bad as killing a human being in their eyes. They are very irrational in their thinking at times. PETA doesnt believe in Man having domination over the animals. We do have a responsibility to protect wildlife where it is practical but it must also be understood that the Human Being is part of the Natural Order as well. We are not some Aliens from outer space who landed here to build shopping centers and deny animals from living. The house and the land that it occupies that all of us are living at, was it sometime in the past part of a natural setting? And if so should we not give it back. Hmmm, I dont think so.

Pravo,I know what you mean. I have Endler's Live-Bearers and they have this tendency to overpopulate. I fed some of the fry to my betta and my Paradise Fish, but I felt horrible afterwards. It wasn't fun watching tiny baby fish swimming for their lives or sitting in some crevice waiting to be discovered by the predator. I know and understand how nature works, but I dont think my tanks can replicate nature perfectly. I'm against all death wherever possible, but maybe that's why I'm vegetarian myself. That, and meat is gross.

Yes, PETA doesn't operate with anything near Christian values. But no matter their justification, some of what they work for IS Christian (as is caring for the world.) Wherever our interests cross, it seems to be a good idea to support them.

I ask because sometimes people use one term and they are actually the other.

On a side note, is anyone familiar with the artist Moby? Many years ago he actually used to talk about his faith and veganism in interviews etc. and especially in his album notes. Is he still a religious person or even vegan anymore?

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but it does have something to do with the topic - kinda. Well, that and I am curious....

Peta is just a tad bit insane though. I don't mind them being Vegan, if you can do it then good for you, I can't (other than fasts). What I don't like is them telling me I'm a murderer. And the whole going to fur shops and trowing buckets of red paint on the furs. That is illegal and wrong, it's just plain vandalism.

I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian. I eat no meat. I eat dairy and eggs. To be vegan and use no animal products at all (you mean no honey??) isn't how I'd like to live my life. But I'm for the ethical treatment of animals, especially when it comes to animals that are farmed for food of one sort or another, whether that's chickens for meat or chickens for eggs. Since we depend on those animals for our lives, I think we should make their lives and deaths humane. And I'm for the reduction of meat-consumption overall. It takes a LOT of resources to feed that cow. We only "should" have about 6oz. of meat a day. We're wasteful in the amount we consume, I think. Especially when a lot of the cows we eat are a reason for the destruction of the rainforest (we need more grazing land for all those cows...)

Anyway, you can see I have my soapbox speeches. There are a lot of things that should get fixed in the way people view animals and their use of them.

But I'm vegetarian because eating flesh grosses me out. I find the thought that I'm tearing through something else's body pretty disgusting. I've been one since roughly 5th grade and still going strong.

I have friends that are vegitarian for that same reason. And it's a perfectly valid reason in my opinion. And I agree that we don't treat animals very well. I prefer to get organic foods if I can, becuase I know they are treated somewhat well most of the time. I also like game because at least the animal has a chance to get away from you.

I also have several friends who are for those same reasons. I totally respect that, & when I can I try to buy free range, etc though honestly I am rather lazy most of the time. I understand the idea behind it, and respect it. However if we wanted to be completely unintrusive to animals, we should be living in wigwams & eating nuts & berries... oh wait, those berries need to go to the animals first...

« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 10:54:09 AM by ania »

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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

>>>On a side note, is anyone familiar with the artist Moby? Many years ago he actually used to talk about his faith and veganism in interviews etc. and especially in his album notes. Is he still a religious person or even vegan anymore?

A religious person? Well, he was one of the celebrity lineup for last April 25th's "March for Baby Murder", er, "March for Women's Lives" in DC...

I guess that doesn't answer your question, but that list sure changed *my* mind about a lot of people. You'd probably find a lot of that list are PETA members too. I love animals, and would never wish unnecessary harm to them, but **come ON.** (with apologies to Jimmy on South Park!)

Anybody want to bet what type of media coverage this demonstration of infanticidal proponents will garner? I bet it will far out weight the March for Life we have in February. I guess this is another way of the Hollywood elites to get their faces shown (some need to because of contract inactivity) and gosh all those cocktail parties that will result from all this celebrity get together. They can get together and discuss all the things they have in common "which is everything". How dull this will be. Hey, it gives Hollywood a break since they wont be there for a couple of days.

JoeS

>>>On a side note, is anyone familiar with the artist Moby? Many years ago he actually used to talk about his faith and veganism in interviews etc. and especially in his album notes. Is he still a religious person or even vegan anymore?

A religious person? Well, he was one of the celebrity lineup for last April 25th's "March for Baby Murder", er, "March for Women's Lives" in DC...

I guess that doesn't answer your question, but that list sure changed *my* mind about a lot of people. You'd probably find a lot of that list are PETA members too. I love animals, and would never wish unnecessary harm to them, but **come ON.** (with apologies to Jimmy on South Park!)////

However if we wanted to be completely unintrusive to animals, we should be living in wigwams & eating nuts & berries... oh wait, those berries need to go to the animals first...

:rofl:

Quote

A religious person? Well, he was one of the celebrity lineup for last April 25th's "March for Baby Murder", er, "March for Women's Lives" in DC...

I guess that doesn't answer your question, but that list sure changed *my* mind about a lot of people. You'd probably find a lot of that list are PETA members too. I love animals, and would never wish unnecessary harm to them, but **come ON.** (with apologies to Jimmy on South Park!)

Lemko,

Thank you for posting that link, much appreciated. There were some names on that list that surprised me and it also changed my mind as well.... :-

I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian. I eat no meat. I eat dairy and eggs. To be vegan and use no animal products at all (you mean no honey??) isn't how I'd like to live my life. But I'm for the ethical treatment of animals, especially when it comes to animals that are farmed for food of one sort or another, whether that's chickens for meat or chickens for eggs. Since we depend on those animals for our lives, I think we should make their lives and deaths humane. And I'm for the reduction of meat-consumption overall. It takes a LOT of resources to feed that cow. We only "should" have about 6oz. of meat a day. We're wasteful in the amount we consume, I think. Especially when a lot of the cows we eat are a reason for the destruction of the rainforest (we need more grazing land for all those cows...)

I'm totally with you on the above. I don't find it totally gross to eat flesh, though, just somewhat.

Our Lord and Saviour fed 5000 with loaves and fishes. This was the conscious action of the God-man, Jesus Christ. Accordingly I believe, regardless of what PETA or any other group with a 'bee' in its bonnet thinks, it is fine to eat fish.

There all sorts of odd ball groups out there, why do we entertain their bizarre fantasies? That they presume to know better than Him is offensive.