As for hybrid healing, It is actually lower now. Battle Fatigue was increased to 45% on the Ptr, so along with the PvP power nerf classes like Ret Paladins are healing for less. Even if you Gem strictly for PvP power your healing will be at least a few % less than live.

That's depressing. I was actually hoping for a season where we saw more Enhance/Rets/WW/Ele and such, but maybe not. Though, they are getting some damage buffs. Guess we'll see. I just wish they'd figure out what they want to do with it and be done with it, then work on balancing classes around it.

---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 07:28 PM ----------

The only people using PvE gear in PvP will be tanks, most likely. Healers are probably going to need pvp power to help with the insane amount of battle fatigue now, and it will ust be better than any pve gear (item ceiling.)

The point you're missing is that everyone SHOULD be the same, and gear should never be anything more than cosmetic. If you want any semblance of balance in the pvp game, this is a pretty huge first step towards it.

Where's my ilevel 540 gear when I want to do some raiding? I mean gear shouldn't matter, right?

Originally Posted by Ebonheart

PVP in a game like WoW can never be balanced. It can only be balanced in an organised setting.

WPVP since the dawn of the game was never balanced. Early Vanilla you had Rogues easily killing 3-4 people at once. WPVP has never been organised PVP. You have a ton of random people ganking a lowbie or an undergeared player minding their own business. They only people I've seen bitching about these changes have been the gankers that thought they were so cool killing people geared in PVE.

Can it be balanced? Hardly but to a certain point. The problem here is dedicated PvP gear, gear that solely exists for PvP and is far inferior in PvE being worse for PvP. It's most obvious in World PvP where PvE gear comes out on top by a large margin but even in rated PvP several PvE pieces especially to get some set bonuses will be superior and that absolutely shouldn't be.
As for the whole ganking thing, if you roll on a PvP server you should expect to get killed or at least getting into a PvP situation. The problem with all these changes is that PvE gear in an PvP fight is VASTLY superior to PvP gear and that is an issue no matter how you look at it.

What would you say if PvP gear suddenly was required for raiding? If it was better for PvE and you'd be forced to run Arenas, but here's a catch, they'd also bring rating requirements back. Would you enjoy that?

Where's my ilevel 540 gear when I want to do some raiding? I mean gear shouldn't matter, right?

PvP and PvE = apples and oranges.

As it is now, you have a pvp setup where honor must be acquired much like vp's, and the honor accumulates even if a match is lost. Most players realize that this is the 'leveling' aspect of PvP, which is entirely why you used to see so many folks botting / afking their way into mid-level gear. The entire system needs to be overhauled, and folks should be playing this mode because they find all aspects of it fun.

A rethink of gear and how it works would also probably increase participation. Make it so your random bg loss gives no honor points, which generally eliminates the players who don't actually care about winning the match. New folks would be far more inclined to step into the arena if they knew that skill level was the only thing keeping them from winning. Win trading would become a pointless activity.

Or to frame it differently, if the majority of folks PvP only for the rewards, this game has some very fundamental problems to resolve.

Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

Actually I think Tanks will fade out of PVP with the changes to Flags in Rated BGs. I'd say DPS DK's, Druids and Locks would make better FC's possibly now. They may still have a role in Random BGs but PVP Gear for them will be useless even. Not useful.

Pretty BS change. I assume sooner of later they'll just remove gear from PVP at the way the changes are going, which doesn't make sense in an MMO focused on the gear grind. Or they could up the PVP Gear to be a higher item level. Make Tyrannical 522, Malevolent 496, Crafted Dreadful 483 and Contenders 463. Make it so the gear is the same level as PVE Gear of the same tier. The only reason it's lower was to stop people skipping raids using PVP Gear to up their item level. Shouldn't care about it or just make it so PVP Gear Item Level does not count towards the total.

This way between Crafted and Tyrannical is 24 Item Levels. Not a stupid amount. No upgrades mean no complains about people starting the season with higher gear. So next season (Mystic) will be around the same item level as Siege of Orgrimmar Normal modes. Limit upped in PVP Areas with the patch to just above LFR Siege of Orgrimmar.

Actually I think Tanks will fade out of PVP with the changes to Flags in Rated BGs. I'd say DPS DK's, Druids and Locks would make better FC's possibly now. They may still have a role in Random BGs but PVP Gear for them will be useful.

Pretty BS change. I assume sooner of later they'll just remove gear from PVP at the way the changes are going, which doesn't make sense in an MMO focused on the gear grind. Or they could up the PVP Gear to be a higher item level. Make Tyrannical 522, Malevolent 496, Crafted Dreadful 483 and Contenders 463. Make it so the gear is the same level as PVE Gear of the same tier. The only reason it's lower was to stop people skipping raids using PVP Gear to up their item level. Shouldn't care about it or just make it so PVP Gear Item Level does not count towards the total.

This way between Crafted and Tyrannical is 24 Item Levels. Not a stupid amount. No upgrades mean no complains about people starting the season with higher gear. So next season (Mystic) will be around the same item level as Siege of Orgrimmar Normal modes. Limit upped in PVP Areas with the patch to just above LFR Siege of Orgrimmar.

If change stays as-is, then Demo Dark Apotheosis Locks are the best flag carriers by far. Feral will be alright, not amazing, and DK's aren't that tanky. =/ The focus will be to not even be hit at all, so I'd say 2nd will actually be windwalker monk (roll roll flying kick tigers lust and lock portal) and DA locks have crazy survivability, pretty much on the level of prot classes already almost.

This change is good. Pve gear was only a real concern for tanks, and its not anymore, with Blizzard deciding to just flat out remove tanks from PvP. Now its just set bonuses and procs, which Blizzard has shown can be hotfix nerfed for arena. Hell maybe Holinka will have to put in a half day and give my warrior a better 2 piece then weapon chain.

I am worried about you guys though; you are being more pessimistic then me, that's a dangerous milestone.

"Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams

When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

As it is now, you have a pvp setup where honor must be acquired much like vp's, and the honor accumulates even if a match is lost. Most players realize that this is the 'leveling' aspect of PvP, which is entirely why you used to see so many folks botting / afking their way into mid-level gear. The entire system needs to be overhauled, and folks should be playing this mode because they find all aspects of it fun.

Wont happen, people would bot it regardless as they do with any grind where it's possible. Look at a far more casual game like dungeon defenders, lots of people just go afk/let others do the work because they can despite there not being anything else to do.

A rethink of gear and how it works would also probably increase participation. Make it so your random bg loss gives no honor points, which generally eliminates the players who don't actually care about winning the match. New folks would be far more inclined to step into the arena if they knew that skill level was the only thing keeping them from winning. Win trading would become a pointless activity.

1. Would further demotivate the losing team and punish those who actually tried and wanted to win because of the others.
2. Every single change that was advocated by you guys to "increase the participation" ended up hurting it instead. By the time you guys are done so is rated PvP.
3. Win trading occurs for ratings, not to farm points.

Or to frame it differently, if the majority of folks PvP only for the rewards, this game has some very fundamental problems to resolve.

Vast mayority of people only raid for the rewards, it's just part of an RPG especially one where you keep stuff instead of it resetting over and over again. You see the same thing happening in other games. Altough it's often ranking, bragging rights or other stuff people care about in a competitive game.

This will not really fix burst. The classes that do the highest burst damage (Frost Mages) will still do much more burst than others. And since healing is also lower it doesn't really counter damage being lower.

Try out the PTR. While mage burst is still fairly high, it's not "kill any target in a deep freeze through their defensive cds" high like it is on live. This change is amazing for curbing burst. I haven't died to a single rogue in a cheap shot or a single mage in a deep freeze or a single ret in a hoj or a single warrior in a shockwave.

Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang

"I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"

I see so many people losing their mind over heroic pve gear being about par with conquest gear in world pvp. Here is what comes to my mind:
1) World PvP is already not serious, organized or fair.
2) Me (a PvP player) fighting a random in the world almost always ends in their embarrassing defeat probably because
3) They are not expecting to PvP, or even dont know how, or are mid quest with mobs
4) I would prefer a bit more even playing field, or a disadvantage because
5) a huge percentage of PvE Heros cant PvP worth a damn, gear or not.

I am not going to curl up and quit because someone in full thunderforged heroic gear can do the same damage as me in random world battles, because in my experience its unlikely he even has his CC on his bars, and if he actually does have any skill then congrats, I wouldn't expect him to have two sets of the highest end gear(PvP & PvE) anymore than I would expect myself to.

If the burst is a general problem and fairly consistent across the classes then that is a good fix.
The PvP power was introduced as "another knob to turn" for adjustment purposes and far as one they are choosing to turn now it works pretty well with minimal effect elsewhere.

Different classes, different specs, different gear/talent choices.
True balance will exist only where everything has an equal counter.
And that is easiest in a game where everyone is equal.

The nearest we get to balance in a battleground is due to a controlled environment.
Equal, or at least pretty close to it in numbers.
And an upcoming attempt to roughly equalise healer numbers.

This sounds like a call out for being a ganker but I meant these points more generally. I personally prefer to fight opponents in even numbers, gear, and if possible skill. This is not the norm. Also world PvP frequently pulls in mobs from splash damage or proximity pulls, which obviously messes with the balance. You can be the idealist and pretend everyone waits with their hands folded for the red faction to be done killing 12 out of 12 Saurok, but that doesn't really serve the argument or the design intent of World PvP.

This change is good. Pve gear was only a real concern for tanks, and its not anymore, with Blizzard deciding to just flat out remove tanks from PvP. Now its just set bonuses and procs, which Blizzard has shown can be hotfix nerfed for arena. Hell maybe Holinka will have to put in a half day and give my warrior a better 2 piece then weapon chain.

I am worried about you guys though; you are being more pessimistic then me, that's a dangerous milestone.

Wait, I thought they were? Isn't the 2 set making Defensive Stance back to what it was? Or did that fall through?

I understand the annoyance with PvE gear in world pvp, and I'm not entirely sure how Blizzard could fix it even if they wanted to, other than making PvP gear crappy for instanced PvE(like PvE will be crap for instanced PVP) and buffing PVP gear across the board up to like 512 item level.

Vast mayority of people only raid for the rewards, it's just part of an RPG especially one where you keep stuff instead of it resetting over and over again. You see the same thing happening in other games. Altough it's often ranking, bragging rights or other stuff people care about in a competitive game.

The goal of PvE is to beat continually tougher, relatively static content. That is not specifically the goal of PvP.

Any good PvP game puts players on the most even footing it can, and lets player skill be the determining factor. The way gear is handled in this game flies directly in the face of that. You can still have a rewards treadmill in PvP, titles, vanity gear, mounts, ratings, etc.

Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

I have been playing my warlock with dark apotheosis just to see how it plays out and I can say that I think Blizzard will have to include them in the "tank" classes for the RBG debuff. They are very strong flag carriers and have a lot of tools to help them survive. They can already be used and having them take 30% less damage than otehr tanks would make them too strong.

At the 1600ish bracket a few weeks ago I successfully carried flag as an unholy DK when our tank DCed. It was hectic but unholy can be tanky if played correctly. I think as far as flag carrying goes though you may see some healers carry and have basically 4 healers teams. I mean a MW monk would be a great flag carrier, WW monks would be good for mobility as well. Ferals will be decent and with heart of the wild able to handle one major assault per score.

I think really what that debuff is going to do is just open the way for more creative strategies and comps and that is a good thing. I just wish they could figure out a way to get the wizard dominance taken care of without totally changing the maps.

Give everyone a base resilience: dumb. Take away resilience: fucking dumb. Nerf PVP power on gems: really really really fucking dumb. I cant see how this ridiculous nerf doesn't "greatly" benefit PVE heroes w/top notch raid gear in a PVP scenario. Blizzard is compounding their mistakes with bigger and dumber mistakes. My prediction is PVP will go from a being a borderline joke to completely unplayable. I can't help but think that Blizzard is either utterly fucking clueless about PVP or they want to kill it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-02 at 05:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Deleth

Well according to them it's supposed to help with burst, I'm absolutely not convinced about that. All it does is to be even more beneficial for PvE geared people making the gap even in rated PvP far smaller than before.
I wouldn't say "more than ever before" in all fairness. I still think the 4.2 patch of cata was the worst for PVP with casters using the legendary staff in bgs, arena and rbgs. Otherwise your point is well taken and pretty dead on the money.

In World PvP the 522 (soon 530) PvE gear was already superior, according to them however the "higher dmg" and "higher healing" was supposed to offset that (guess what, it really didn't, the difference is way to massive). So where does that leave us after the most recent change? Afterall PvP geared people just lost about 1/3 of their bonus dmg and healing.
I am a hard PVP'er but I dont care much for World PVP because it's always unfairly slanted one way or another. But, the reality is, I don't see how top notch PVP gear can possibly be competitve with top notch PVE in World enviornment. With all these fucking changes, I can't see how I can possibly defend myself in full conquest gear. And why is this a problem? Dailies, all the fucking dailies I must do.

In Rated PvP this is going to make some PvE pieces especially for classes who go for resilience far more beneficial seeing how they often have more sockets and thus allow for more gems and in some other cases this will make some T-pieces for set bonuses an even better/an alternative.
Fucking awesome right!

All in all MoP PvP is going into a direction I absolutely hate. I'm playing since TBC, I've always been a PvP main/only player and ofc I loathed seeing some PvE pieces in PvP. But making them flat out better for World PvP and a real alternative/often superior in ranked PvP gets me to the point for the first time where I really don't want to play this game anymore.

Wait, I thought they were? Isn't the 2 set making Defensive Stance back to what it was? Or did that fall through?

I understand the annoyance with PvE gear in world pvp, and I'm not entirely sure how Blizzard could fix it even if they wanted to, other than making PvP gear crappy for instanced PvE(like PvE will be crap for instanced PVP) and buffing PVP gear across the board up to like 512 item level.

D Stance is 25% in 5.3. The 2 piece was 10% damage reduction in Battle Stance, but they reverted it back to weapon chain, saying we have D Stance for that. Which is kind of silly because they nerfed D Stance before saying they dont want us in it all the time.

"Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams

When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.