Have you never heard people use terms for female genitalia, or call their male friends "girl" as a way to shame or motivate them? "Don't be a pussy, bro, commit to it! You can do it!" That is an example of sexism.

I actually haven't heard that kind of thing while climbing, but I also tend not to tune into other groups' conversations a lot. Certainly I've never heard that from any guys I've climbed with.

lena_chita wrote:

Making assumption about someone's abilities based on gender-- that is sexism, too. Etc.

Yeah, but of course I would never experience that either because I don't climb hard!

OH my gosh, this thread . . . well, anyway! There's probably sexism everywhere, but I have never personally experienced it in the context of climbing or really any other outdoor activity. Good luck with your project!

I can't say that I experienced MORE sexism in the climbing community, or in an "outdoor activity", than I have experienced it in general life. But I have certainly experienced it in climbing.

Have you never heard people use terms for female genitalia, or call their male friends "girl" as a way to shame or motivate them? "Don't be a pussy, bro, commit to it! You can do it!" That is an example of sexism.

Making assumption about someone's abilities based on gender-- that is sexism, too.

You had an example from this very thread (the assumption that a "pretty girl" would, of course, be seconding:

MikeDierson wrote:

One cannot have claims to not desiered joining "mile high club" on the face. This is not true? Especially with a pretty girl as the second?

Some real-life examples:

Example 1: the crag is empty. I just climbed, and my (male) partner, who is not feeling the best decides to toprope the climb I led. He is having a hard time at the bottom 1/3rd of the climb when another guy walks in. Looks at the guy climbing, looks at me, looks around, finally asks me: who put the rope up? When I tell him that I did, he does a double-take, regroups, and proceeds with "oh, wow, you must be really strong. Wow, good for you! This climb looks amazing! I don't think I could do it, but someday... "

The guy was not rude to me. In fact, he was really complimentary. BUT, if the situation were reversed, a female climber struggling on a toprope, with a male belaying her, and the crag otherwise empty, would the guy have looked beyond the belaying male for SOMEONE who had led this route? Likely not. Hence-- this is an example of a sexist attitude, even though it was not an act of rudeness directed at me, it clearly shows that the guy has underlying assumptions about men and women climbers

Example 2: I just finished climbing. The rope is up. The crag in empty. My female partner and I are having a leisurely morning. This wall has, in order: 5.10b, 5.9, 5.10d, 5.10b, 5.11d, 5.11d. We hear a large group walking in from a long way off, because they are speaking loudly. The guy who must be the most experienced one in the group says something along the lines of: so, there is a 5.9 there, and a 10b, and I bet we can set the toprope up on the 10d that is next to the 5.9 from the anchors of 5.9...

Finally, the group walks in. The guy in front has a guidebook in his hands, but when he sees us, he stops and says, oh, this must be the 5.9! No, I tell him, the 5.9 is over there. Oh, he says, then this is the 5.10b? (pointing at our rope). No, I tell him, the .10b is the first one on the left, and the 4th one. This is .11d. Again, a double-take from the guy: so, uh, did you climb it? Wow!

The climb in question does NOT look anything like a 5.9, In fact, the start of this climb, while not the crux, looks more intimidating than it is. So the only reason the guy assumed this climb was a 5.9 was... what, exactly? The fact that this is the only rope up, and there are two "girls" underneath it, so of course they must be on the easiest climb!

Interesting. While I am not saying these comments are sexist or not, it could be that those people, guys, were just impressed with someone who actually climbs hard by their standards.

I can give an example of one for sure sexist situation.

I was living in CLarksville TN and climbing the local crag, King's Bluff. Some nice limestone routes. Clarksville is also home to Fort Campbell and the 101 Airbone, so the crags often sees young soldiers climbing.

I was climbing with a female partner on the route "Girly Girly Girls 5.12." Another femal partner of mine named it after several of us, including her failed, time and time again and she finally figured out the sequence. Took most of us another six months to repeat it, she could run laps on it.

Anyways, she's leading the route, reaches the belay, clears it, and pulls the draws so we can move on to our next route. The whole time, these young Army guys, six or seven of them, were watching her.

When we pack up, one of them says "let's climb this one, if that woman can do, shouldn't be to hard." My partner and I look at each other and say nothing, but we decide to jump on a route not far so we can entertain ourselves.

All of them tried several time to reach the first bolt but couldn't. When we offered to show them some routes in the area that was more appropriate for their level, they declined. (The area had no guidebook at the time.)

There is always going to be sexism. Your not going to change that and being on guard all the time and provoking confrontation makes everything worse. I find a lot of the time its brought on by individuals with less skill then brains and its best to just do the walking instead of talking. I used to love belaying one of my girl friends on her projects in the red and smith just to hear the comments from passer byes. The crap that comes out of peoples mouths is hilarious. I think its always best to simply ask if they want a try. Then watch as they slink away after they realize its like 5.13+. Lets just face it though people suck equally. And after all its all about just crushing some rock and enjoying some company or solitude.

There is always going to be sexism. Your not going to change that and being on guard all the time and provoking confrontation makes everything worse.

Yes and no. Yes, it can make things worse rather than something positive.

Not going to change? No, it can change through grass roots activism. It should unless one decides "we've arrived."

In my lifetime, I witnessed a woman turned down for a home loan because she was recently divorced, even though she had a steady, full time, dependable job (edit: a job she landed after going back to college post-divorce for a year to complete a teaching program). She ended up having to go to extended family to help with the financing and 15 or so years later sold the home with great return on investment.

Sure - out on the rock, most of the time, sexism can be shrugged off without great impact on the day(s). But a little well-timed push-back might make a difference in how those guys behave back in the office where prejudices can have greater impact.

"Never noticed a female monkey not climbing as well as a male, have you?" - Don Whillans on being asked it if was possible for a woman to be a better rock climber than a man.

"Rocks make no compromise for sex... rock climbing is not like some sports, where it is made easier for women; or sports like, say, softball, which is only baseball for soft people. On a rock, everything is equal." -Beverly Johnson

You should have had your survey monkey on a golfer's forum. And then ask why there is a "ladies tee".

There is always going to be sexism. Your not going to change that and being on guard all the time and provoking confrontation makes everything worse. I find a lot of the time its brought on by individuals with less skill then brains and its best to just do the walking instead of talking. I used to love belaying one of my girl friends on her projects in the red and smith just to hear the comments from passer byes. The crap that comes out of peoples mouths is hilarious. I think its always best to simply ask if they want a try. Then watch as they slink away after they realize its like 5.13+. Lets just face it though people suck equally. And after all its all about just crushing some rock and enjoying some company or solitude.

There is always going to be sexism. Your not going to change that and being on guard all the time and provoking confrontation makes everything worse. I find a lot of the time its brought on by individuals with less skill then brains and its best to just do the walking instead of talking. I used to love belaying one of my girl friends on her projects in the red and smith just to hear the comments from passer byes. The crap that comes out of peoples mouths is hilarious. I think its always best to simply ask if they want a try. Then watch as they slink away after they realize its like 5.13+. Lets just face it though people suck equally. And after all its all about just crushing some rock and enjoying some company or solitude.

Worse for whom? Worse for a guy who is walking around blithely unaware that he is being sexist? Oh well, I'll make it worse for him then, if I can.

Sometimes internet provides an opportunity to explain something that is not easily done IRL. When a guy first looks around for any possible (male) person who might have led the route, and then settles on me and tells me that wow, he is really impressed, I do not tell him, gee, you are a sexist jerk. I tell him thank you.

To the op. I think that rock climbing is one of the least divided sport/activity. I will and know many guys who will not hesitate to climb with a woman if she is safe and can climb at the same level or better. The rock doesn't care who u are. Neither do I. Until I read this thread I thought that sexism in climbing was extremely low. Guess I was wrong lol but on this site people will complain about everything

To the op. I think that rock climbing is one of the least divided sport/activity. I will and know many guys who will not hesitate to climb with a woman if she is safe and can climb at the same level or better. The rock doesn't care who u are. Neither do I.

A great example of true, true, and unrelated.

Yes, climbing is an activity where the difference in male performance and female performance is rather small, compared to a lot of other sports. However, this is neither here, nor there. Running is not sexist because male record speed is different from female record speed. Neither is climbing.

Yes, I too know plenty of climbers of either gender who would climb with climbers of either gender without discrimination, as long as the partner is safe and competent. So what? These people are not the ones who are the problem.

I am also really glad to know that rock doesn't care. Until you pointed it out, I was SURE that it did!

As I said up-thread, there isn't so much climbing-specific sexism, as much as people who are sexist in their everyday life being ALSO sexist when it comes to climbing.

People who are sexist don't drop their sexist attitude at the door to the climbing gym, or at the parking lot to the crag. And people who are conscious about sexism are conscious to it at work, AND while climbing.

one of my female friend just came back from hiking to South pole, some 22 days of hauling 150 lbs of stuff in sub-zero temp. Another best female climber friend of mine who attempt to climb K2 in 2010 was killed on G2 in 2011 for a simple mistake and my closest female friend in Yosemite climbs stuff where none of you would even dream to climb so I been around female climbers to see what their capabilities are but, when we talk about whether men and women are equal in outdoors, the true answer IMO is No, they are not equal. We have to compare them on case by case only.

I honestly don't believe Majid is trying to be a sexist nor a troll on the subject. He's merely giving us his honest response on the subject based on perceptions derived from experiences in his life.

The only way to enlighten him and others is with facts that refute his assessment. I hope.

very, very few people are actually "trolls."

most of the horrible shit on the internet are people's actual opinions that they really believe.

[not that I think what majid said this time is particularly repugnant. just throwin out the reminder that the number of people actually plotting to piss people off is super small. its just that there are a lot of horrible people, and the internet lets those people say what they really think, and also sometimes they are attention-seeking.]

one of my female friend just came back from hiking to South pole, some 22 days of hauling 150 lbs of stuff in sub-zero temp. Another best female climber friend of mine who attempt to climb K2 in 2010 was killed on G2 in 2011 for a simple mistake and my closest female friend in Yosemite climbs stuff where none of you would even dream to climb so I been around female climbers to see what their capabilities are but, when we talk about whether men and women are equal in outdoors, the true answer IMO is No, they are not equal. We have to compare them on case by case only.

I honestly don't believe Majid is trying to be a sexist nor a troll on the subject. He's merely giving us his honest response on the subject based on perceptions derived from experiences in his life.

The only way to enlighten him and others is with facts that refute his assessment. I hope.

very, very few people are actually "trolls."

most of the horrible shit on the internet are people's actual opinions that they really believe.

[not that I think what majid said this time is particularly repugnant. just throwin out the reminder that the number of people actually plotting to piss people off is super small. its just that there are a lot of horrible people, and the internet lets those people say what they really think, and also sometimes they are attention-seeking.]

The best thing about the internet is that anybody can have a voice and post anything about any topic they choose to. The worst thing about the internet is that anybody can have a voice and post anything about any topic they choose to.

In my view, in the first couple of year climbing men tend to be stronger and women tend to have better balance and fluidity. Women tend to be better on slabs and men tend to be best on overhangs. There's always individual differences. As experience builds, differences fade.

one of my female friend just came back from hiking to South pole, some 22 days of hauling 150 lbs of stuff in sub-zero temp. Another best female climber friend of mine who attempt to climb K2 in 2010 was killed on G2 in 2011 for a simple mistake and my closest female friend in Yosemite climbs stuff where none of you would even dream to climb so I been around female climbers to see what their capabilities are but, when we talk about whether men and women are equal in outdoors, the true answer IMO is No, they are not equal. We have to compare them on case by case only.

I honestly don't believe Majid is trying to be a sexist nor a troll on the subject. He's merely giving us his honest response on the subject based on perceptions derived from experiences in his life.

The only way to enlighten him and others is with facts that refute his assessment. I hope.

very, very few people are actually "trolls."

most of the horrible shit on the internet are people's actual opinions that they really believe.

[not that I think what majid said this time is particularly repugnant. just throwin out the reminder that the number of people actually plotting to piss people off is super small. its just that there are a lot of horrible people, and the internet lets those people say what they really think, and also sometimes they are attention-seeking.]

The best thing about the internet is that anybody can have a voice and post anything about any topic they choose to. The worst thing about the internet is that anybody can have a voice and post anything about any topic they choose to.

Curt

The second best thing is that what is typed on the internet stays on the internet, and the second worst is thread resurrection.