While that makes me all kinds of tingly, I'm not sure we can see a lineup including Kane, Dele, Son, Lo Celso, Eriksen, Lucas, with N'Dombele and one of Dier or Winks, if that's what he is trying to say. That would leave us with only 2 in the back?

wants to be caribou ken

I think you're misreading him. When he says this: the slashes as opposed to the commas make me think he's referring to a combo of those--Dele, Son, Kane, and Lucas or Dele, Son, Kane, Lo Celso, etc.....not Lucas, Eriksen, Lo Celso all on the field.

Well-Known Member

I think you guys are nuts about the Sissoko at RB being a good move for the player and his skillset. He may be a good option FOR SPURS, but he is by far the best pivot on the squad and that's where the majority of his PT should be. Aurier should get the first shot to hold it down (if he's still on the squad), KWP should get seconds, and Foyth will get some time there when he returns.

I do agree that Son is the only true backup to Kane at CF. If pushed into the same situation as late last season, I wouldn't mind giving Dele a shot at it, but Lucas as part of a 2-man FWD setup was effective enough to be a viable alternative.

Looking through the squad, this is a crazy deep group. I mean, how many times has Winks been mentioned this summer? I'm still holding out hope that Lamela can become something more than he currently is, although everyone is going to seriously have to earn their minutes this year.

Lastly a question, is N'Koudou still on this squad, and do we care/think he will get any PT?

My guess is that neither will work and that Eriksen will just happily stay then sign a fat pre-contract in January with the club of his choice.

Players are waking up to the absurd amount of money they can make if they just hit Bosman status and cut their current employer out of the picture. The fact that pre-contracts are allowed just makes it all the more attractive. Aaron Ramsey got 400k per week from Juve (and reportedly had offers from numerous other big clubs). Eriksen is a better player who fits more systems and has a less worrisome injury history. He is going to have a huge market on 1/1/2020.

Member

I think you guys are nuts about the Sissoko at RB being a good move for the player and his skillset. He may be a good option FOR SPURS, but he is by far the best pivot on the squad and that's where the majority of his PT should be. Aurier should get the first shot to hold it down (if he's still on the squad), KWP should get seconds, and Foyth will get some time there when he returns.

Wait, what? He's like their 6-7th best central midfielder if you include Alli/Eriksen/Dier. He performed well above what everyone expected last season, but he's not important as a midfielder other than, the "if everyone dies he can hold down the fort" role.

Well-Known Member

Wait, what? He's like their 6-7th best central midfielder if you include Alli/Eriksen/Dier. He performed well above what everyone expected last season, but he's not important as a midfielder other than, the "if everyone dies he can hold down the fort" role.

Alli and Eriksen are not pivots. Pivots are basically DMFs. In an attacking team's system, they can ride higher and also serve CMF roles, but to me the primary responsibility of a pivot is to protect the CBs and secondly, help establish possession to build attacks. Going by that, the pivots in the squad are Sissoko, Dier, and Ndombele (from what I've read and understand, haven't watched enough of him yet). In other words, you can't play a MF of Eriksen, Winks, Dele, and GLC.

On Saturday, the 4-4-2 was more of a 4-2-1-2-1 with Sissoko and Ndombele as double pivots, Winks further ahead of them, Lamela and Moura on the wings, and Arry up top.

Member

They were pretty fluid with the ball, with AV parking the bus after going up one -- but I thought for most of the game Winks was clearly the holding midfielder, with Ndombele and Sissoko playing as 8's with a ton of freedom.

You're definitely right about Eriksen not being a pivot, but Sissoko hasn't ever played as the most defensive midfielder for Spurs that I can remember, whether as a double pivot or a lone defensive mid. If he's a pivot so is Alli, and Lo Celso definitely has that ability.

Also I was too harsh on you and Sissoko. He's a good player, but my point was that he's not *needed* in midfield. He very well might be at right back. His skills seem to be a better fit there, although that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be good at it.

Member

Spurs had to play on the counter a lot last year because their midfield couldn't to win and hold the ball and control games, and in that tactical setup Sissoko's dribbling and running were valuable assets. Plus because of the weak midfield Spurs needed a lot of ball progression and passing from Trippier, and Sissoko was very good at covering for Trippier's lack of pace and weak defensive positioning when Spurs needed Trippier higher up the field. Now that Spurs have an actual midfield again they will be able to control games more, won't have to rely on the right back to work the ball forward, and will have to more frequently create chances against packed defenses, and in those situations Sissoko's weak first touch and lack of creativity on the ball in tight spaces are major liabilities. I think he will be gradually phased out of the first XI as everyone gets healthy and integrated. But with injuries and rotation there's still a place for him in the squad.

Well-Known Member

They were pretty fluid with the ball, with AV parking the bus after going up one -- but I thought for most of the game Winks was clearly the holding midfielder, with Ndombele and Sissoko playing as 8's with a ton of freedom.

You're definitely right about Eriksen not being a pivot, but Sissoko hasn't ever played as the most defensive midfielder for Spurs that I can remember, whether as a double pivot or a lone defensive mid. If he's a pivot so is Alli, and Lo Celso definitely has that ability.

Also I was too harsh on you and Sissoko. He's a good player, but my point was that he's not *needed* in midfield. He very well might be at right back. His skills seem to be a better fit there, although that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be good at it.

I disagree that Sissoko wasn't the deepest MF in last season's late-season injury run. The MF was usually Sissoko-Eriksen-Winks, with Alli-Moura-Son ahead of them with Alli and Moura providing some defensive cover on the wings depending on the opponent. I love Winks, but I think he's expected to play farther upfield since he doesn't have the physicality to play the pivot. As @coremiller writes below, Sissoko also covered for Rose and Trippier a lot.

Spurs had to play on the counter a lot last year because their midfield couldn't to win and hold the ball and control games, and in that tactical setup Sissoko's dribbling and running were valuable assets. Plus because of the weak midfield Spurs needed a lot of ball progression and passing from Trippier, and Sissoko was very good at covering for Trippier's lack of pace and weak defensive positioning when Spurs needed Trippier higher up the field. Now that Spurs have an actual midfield again they will be able to control games more, won't have to rely on the right back to work the ball forward, and will have to more frequently create chances against packed defenses, and in those situations Sissoko's weak first touch and lack of creativity on the ball in tight spaces are major liabilities. I think he will be gradually phased out of the first XI as everyone gets healthy and integrated. But with injuries and rotation there's still a place for him in the squad.

I agree with this, but draw a different conclusion. Unless Dier recovers his form, Sissoko would be the starting DMF IMO. I'd play him with Ndombele and at least one of Eriksen/GLC (since Winks as the third MF didn't work very well against AV). In a single pivot system, Dier can be the backup and if Poch wants to play a "double pivot" and rest Sissoko, he can probably get away with Ndombele and Winks. Poch will probably be spending the rest of the calendar year figuring out these combinations and identifying his best XI, or really his best XIV, because Spurs' biggest advantage vs. the elite ATM is their depth and flexibility (non-MANC division).

Member

I think Spurs' first-choice midfield will eventually be a 3 of Ndombele/Winks/GLC, with Winks as the most central/deepest player. Ndombele and GLC are both excellent tacklers/pressers who can cover lots of ground in addition to their on-ball skills, so you can get away with playing a more possession-oriented deep third mid like Winks rather than a more physical defensive player like Sissoko and Dier. It will depend some on matchups though, and it's a little trickier if Poch wants to play a midfield 2, where I'm not sure there's enough defensive cover for Winks.

The bigger question in that 4-3-3 is how to pick just three attackers. Kane is obviously a shoo-in when fit, but that leaves Eriksen (if he stays), Dele, Son, Lucas, and Lamela competing for just two spots (probably IMO in that order). Plus Sessegnon, although I think he's more of a long-term project and it's unclear if he'll ultimately be used at left back or in a more attacking role. A nice problem to have.

One of the cool things about Spurs' business this summer is the youth. Ndbomele, GLC, Dele, and Winks are all 22/23. If they can keep the band together, that's a damn good midfield set up for the next 5+ years.

Well-Known Member

I think Spurs' first-choice midfield will eventually be a 3 of Ndombele/Winks/GLC, with Winks as the most central/deepest player. Ndombele and GLC are both excellent tacklers/pressers who can cover lots of ground in addition to their on-ball skills, so you can get away with playing a more possession-oriented deep third mid like Winks rather than a more physical defensive player like Sissoko and Dier. It will depend some on matchups though, and it's a little trickier if Poch wants to play a midfield 2, where I'm not sure there's enough defensive cover for Winks.

The bigger question in that 4-3-3 is how to pick just three attackers. Kane is obviously a shoo-in when fit, but that leaves Eriksen (if he stays), Dele, Son, Lucas, and Lamela competing for just two spots (probably IMO in that order). Plus Sessegnon, although I think he's more of a long-term project and it's unclear if he'll ultimately be used at left back or in a more attacking role. A nice problem to have.

One of the cool things about Spurs' business this summer is the youth. Ndbomele, GLC, Dele, and Winks are all 22/23. If they can keep the band together, that's a damn good midfield set up for the next 5+ years.

Starting from the bottom of this post, (1) yes, it wasn't just that they brought in talent but that it was established talent with room to grow. Levy's a goddamn genius (from a logic perspective, trying not to be outcome-determinative here). (2) I think Son established himself as the clear #2 last season, at least until proven otherwise. His ability to play on the wing and ahead of Kane provides more fluidity and dynamism than any other attacker. I'd say Dele on the other side has the first crack at the other wing, but if Poch decides to play the forwards centrally and have the FBs provide the width, then Eriksen and GLC can challenge Dele for the #10 spot. Lucas and Lamela are chasing from behind to start the season IMO. Furthermore, I think Poch and Eriksen prefer to have him considered a MF.

(3) Not every 4-3-3 MF is the same and you alluded to it. If Spurs want to press, your first choice MF is fine, although it's slight with GLC and Winks. It would be very Tiki Taka Barca to start a MF of GLC/Winks/Eriksen at some point, although I think we're more likely to see those 3 simultaneously along with a Dier/Sissoko in 4 MF. I'm a bit scarred from the Barca-Pool UCL semis, where Pool's fit and physical MF overran Barca's skilled but slow outfit.

Or the same with the midfield triangle rotated and Ndombele at the base. And tons of depth with Lucas, Lamela, Winks, Sissoko, Dier, Sanchez, and a bunch of odd fullbacks. And Foyth who is weird but intriguing

I’m really excited for the flexibility that Poch has this season. With the injuries and midfield crisis last season, he didn’t really have any leeway to be proactively creative with his lineups and tactics. He was constantly trying to compensate for Spurs weaknesses instead of attacking other teams’.

Or the same with the midfield triangle rotated and Ndombele at the base. And tons of depth with Lucas, Lamela, Winks, Sissoko, Dier, Sanchez, and a bunch of odd fullbacks. And Foyth who is weird but intriguing

I’m really excited for the flexibility that Poch has this season. With the injuries and midfield crisis last season, he didn’t really have any leeway to be proactively creative with his lineups and tactics. He was constantly trying to compensate for Spurs weaknesses instead of attacking other teams’.

Yes, this will be a big season for Poch as he finally has the squad depth to really pick his tactics carefully. On a slightly unrelated note, does Poch have a "system" in the same vein as Klopp or Pep? Alternatively, is his managerial strength in general knowledge and flexibility? Poch definitely seems to be comfortable with numerous formations like 4-2-3-1, 4-1-3-2, 3-4-2-1, 4-3-3, etc. but that's all very different from Klopp's base 4-3-3 Gegenpress that he basically tinkers with just a bit match-to-match to maximize effectiveness.

Longtime Member

Is Vertonghen hurt, or just in the doghouse? Can’t imagine why Oliver Skipp was the injury time sub, and he promptly led his man get space off the corner. Fortunately just enough space for his arm to touch the ball.

Dope

Dorito Dink

If you're telling me we can be missing a few regulars, have guys like Eriksen play pretty badly, have Poch have a bad game, on the road, at Man City, and come away with a point, then I'm pretty fucking okay with things.

Dope

If you're telling me we can be missing a few regulars, have guys like Eriksen play pretty badly, have Poch have a bad game, on the road, at Man City, and come away with a point, then I'm pretty fucking okay with things.

Member

City played a disrespectfully high line most of the game because none of Kane/Eriksen/Lamela were any sort of threat to run behind the defense. Missing Son is especially problematic when facing pressing teams for this reason. I actually thought Spurs were pretty impressive possessing the ball for stretches of the game, considering how much City compressed the field. But they weren't able to get it out of their own half. I'll gladly take the undeserved point.

Member

City played a disrespectfully high line most of the game because none of Kane/Eriksen/Lamela were any sort of threat to run behind the defense. Missing Son is especially problematic when facing pressing teams for this reason. I actually thought Spurs were pretty impressive possessing the ball for stretches of the game, considering how much City compressed the field. But they weren't able to get it out of their own half. I'll gladly take the undeserved point.

I agree with all of this and I'm an enormous Poch fan, but not having Moura start was a huge miss. There was no speed threat to break that line and as soon as Lucas came on, the created a couple chances (not even counting his actual goal).

I love Son and rate him higher than Lucas, but Lucas would have given Spurs that threat.

Member

I agree with all of this and I'm an enormous Poch fan, but not having Moura start was a huge miss. There was no speed threat to break that line and as soon as Lucas came on, the created a couple chances (not even counting his actual goal).

I love Son and rate him higher than Lucas, but Lucas would have given Spurs that threat.

I agree with this. Moura adds a unique element to Spurs' attack that gives him additional value. Particularly with Son out, teams' can play a high line because Kane isn't going to beat it that often, especially if Eriksen is playing as poorly as he did yesterday. Offensively, Spurs have a lot of physically strong players that can win the ball, but they lack a small, quick attacker that can beat players off the dribble and create chances that way. Moura's traditional samba playing style is different and important to adding variety to Spurs' attacking options. Without a player like Moura, I feel like Spurs are sometimes predictable on offense, and less talented teams can pack players beyond the ball and deflect crosses away from the box. Moura's ability to breakdown defenders and get into the teeth of the opposing defense while maintaining possession is extremely valuable.

I thought during the second half of the game Saturday Spurs played remarkably well on defense, after making some mistakes early. Ndombele was a rock late, Sanchez and Toby did a good job dealing with the various crosses into the box, and KWP did a pretty solid job on Sterling. Lloris was the real hero though, he was so active in the second half; you never want your keeper that involved in the game but he was everywhere late.

The Skipp substitution was a real head-scratcher. When it became clear Spurs were just trying to hang on for the draw after the Moura goal, why would you bring on a 19 year old midfielder instead of your veteran, proven international CB?

Member

I agree with this. Moura adds a unique element to Spurs' attack that gives him additional value. Particularly with Son out, teams' can play a high line because Kane isn't going to beat it that often, especially if Eriksen is playing as poorly as he did yesterday. Offensively, Spurs have a lot of physically strong players that can win the ball, but they lack a small, quick attacker that can beat players off the dribble and create chances that way. Moura's traditional samba playing style is different and important to adding variety to Spurs' attacking options. Without a player like Moura, I feel like Spurs are sometimes predictable on offense, and less talented teams can pack players beyond the ball and deflect crosses away from the box. Moura's ability to breakdown defenders and get into the teeth of the opposing defense while maintaining possession is extremely valuable.

I thought during the second half of the game Saturday Spurs played remarkably well on defense, after making some mistakes early. Ndombele was a rock late, Sanchez and Toby did a good job dealing with the various crosses into the box, and KWP did a pretty solid job on Sterling. Lloris was the real hero though, he was so active in the second half; you never want your keeper that involved in the game but he was everywhere late.

The Skipp substitution was a real head-scratcher. When it became clear Spurs were just trying to hang on for the draw after the Moura goal, why would you bring on a 19 year old midfielder instead of your veteran, proven international CB?

Dorito Dink

I generally agree that I would have wanted Moura's pace in over Lamela at the start, but perhaps Moura didn't have 70 minutes in him and Poch was hoping his pace late in the game might be difference maker.

Dorito Dink

They were talking about Skipp on a podcast today (Last Word on Spurs) on said it's probably simple--Skipp is ahead of Dier. Because if Dier wasn't fit enough to give 4 minutes at the end of the match he wouldn't have been there. Skipp is ahead of him. Ben Davies is going to get lots of run--in the FA Cup and the like, but I don't think he's going to play much against the big 6 type squads this season if folks are healthy.

Well-Known Member

I agree with this. Moura adds a unique element to Spurs' attack that gives him additional value. Particularly with Son out, teams' can play a high line because Kane isn't going to beat it that often, especially if Eriksen is playing as poorly as he did yesterday. Offensively, Spurs have a lot of physically strong players that can win the ball, but they lack a small, quick attacker that can beat players off the dribble and create chances that way. Moura's traditional samba playing style is different and important to adding variety to Spurs' attacking options. Without a player like Moura, I feel like Spurs are sometimes predictable on offense, and less talented teams can pack players beyond the ball and deflect crosses away from the box. Moura's ability to breakdown defenders and get into the teeth of the opposing defense while maintaining possession is extremely valuable.

I thought during the second half of the game Saturday Spurs played remarkably well on defense, after making some mistakes early. Ndombele was a rock late, Sanchez and Toby did a good job dealing with the various crosses into the box, and KWP did a pretty solid job on Sterling. Lloris was the real hero though, he was so active in the second half; you never want your keeper that involved in the game but he was everywhere late.

The Skipp substitution was a real head-scratcher. When it became clear Spurs were just trying to hang on for the draw after the Moura goal, why would you bring on a 19 year old midfielder instead of your veteran, proven international CB?

Great post. I'm not as high on Moura as most (last year's heroics notwithstanding), but without Son and Dele, Moura becomes more important to this squad against a team like Citeh that's going to come after you and leave space at the back. Lamela's off to a good start this season (and as an Argentine not named Higuain I'm obligated to root for him despite any and all logic) but Moura is a better player at the moment.

wants to be caribou ken

I agree with all of this and I'm an enormous Poch fan, but not having Moura start was a huge miss. There was no speed threat to break that line and as soon as Lucas came on, the created a couple chances (not even counting his actual goal).

I love Son and rate him higher than Lucas, but Lucas would have given Spurs that threat.

Deli would have provided this as well. He is not as fast as Son, but he is better at bringing a long ball down and controlling it into a dangerous pass or shot than just about any other player. I really think Poch's game plan would have made a ton of sense if Deli and Son were starting over Lamela and Eriksen with the possibility of pushing Eriksen back into Winks or Sissoko's spot.

It seems like the transfer window really is sowing some chaos. I have to think certain players are still agitating for transfers and/or wages. Poch does not brook these efforts and the result is puzzling lineups.

I hope that once the window closes, the squad comes together and Poch helps everyone find their mojo.

Dorito Dink

Okay, I had us pegged at 6 points after 4 games (possibly 7), with losses at Man City and Arsenal with potentially a draw at Arsenal. We're at 5 points and I think the closing of the window and the break have come at the perfect time.

We have 2 of the hardest away fixtures done with 2 points, not quite but almost offsetting the horrendous Newcastle result.

The next 5 league games set up pretty decently: Crystal Palace, @Leceister, Southampton, @BHA, Watford. Leicester will be tough, but Spurs *should* be able to navigate that stretch with at least 12 points.

Member

I would have liked 7 points from the first four matches, but 5 is not too bad, especially since Spurs have not yet played a game with their first-choice midfield, and Ndbomele/GLC/Eriksen/Dele have combined for only four starts so far. Hopefully the international break allows everyone to get healthy and we get to see those four all play together regularly. I think they'll be a completely different, much better team once that happens, although right back will remain a big problem. But I've had enough of the Winkssoko midfield pair.

I mean, the performances have not been good. Spurs needed a late comeback to beat a promoted side at home, got thoroughly shellacked by City and escaped with a miracle point, lost to a relegation candidate at home, and then got outplayed for long stretches in the derby. And this follows some pretty bad league form in the second half of last season -- Spurs have now taken only 16 points from their last 15 league games. But there are reasons to think they'll get better.

Dorito Dink

I mean, the performances have not been good. Spurs needed a late comeback to beat a promoted side at home, got thoroughly shellacked by City and escaped with a miracle point, lost to a relegation candidate at home, and then got outplayed for long stretches in the derby. And this follows some pretty bad league form in the second half of last season -- Spurs have now taken only 16 points from their last 15 league games. But there are reasons to think they'll get better.

I wasn't saying they were good, and the podcast comment wasn't just in reference to this--it was more a general thing I noticed. But you're 100% right. But because there are reasons to think it can get better, I'll take the 5 points and run.

Re: the podcasts--when Dybala didn't happen, it was the end of the world. With like 5 days left in the window and Lo Celso and Sessegnon hadn't happened yet, it was the end of the world. I want to listen to podcasts, but it's relentlessly negative.

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