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After I posted that I realized - it likely has a lot to do with privilege, therefore not at all a "fair" point of view.
Most people with money and social connections are "better off," race often (but not always) notwithstanding. I should certainly be smart enough to understand that we should not look at this group to identify a norm.

We're the only people I know of that waste so much of our energy supporting and going to bat for criminals, the lazy, and the stupid.

Bravo! Dead on. And don't lump yourself into this by saying We just because you are black. Yourself and millions of other black people don't support this type of behavior. Unfortunately the media tends to give voice to the loudest idiots who do support criminality and low-class activities, especially when such "outrage" is targeted at the police or whites in general.

[quote=nograviti;41470647]While I understand what you are saying, I cannot go down the same route as yourself and condemn them. As I tried to tease out with another poster, that class of so called 'ghetto' people were created. They are a product of a discriminatory system and America has only itself to blame.

Also as another suggested the reactions to black people are different to Caucasians. I remember experiencing this problem, when my son was crying in a store. People were tutting and passively aggressively suggesting that I should have done more to quieten down my son. At the same child, another Caucasian child was crying in the same fashion and no one said a word to the flaxen haired mother. The discrepancy was very obvious to me, so I ignored it and carried on as usual. Were I a so called 'ghetto' father with already internalised feelings of inadequacy, I might have tried harder to make my son be quiet (which would probably have been an overreaction).

People need to understand that they have been primed to see behaviour from different groups in completely different ways. This is societal and in America this is supported by bias in the media and on television. If I say 'who is loud?' and show people a card with an image of a group of black people on it and another with a group of white people on it, people automatically associate loudness with the image of black people. Tests on this are consistent from blacks to whites..

Linked to this is another issue, FEAR. One of the posters genuinely appears to fear working class black people. The simple assertion I would make is, how can you succeed as a people if you are afraid of someone who looks like you? My uncle explained this to me from a young age and believed that the failure of African Americans is because they have been taught to fear each other. Posh as I am, I have rolled through the roughest parts of the US without fear. Why because I have shown respect and genuine love for the people there. In fact some even said "we appreciate you coming down here and seeing our neighbourhood, as we are not animals". Whenever I hear such sentiments I am shocked that a fellow human will accept the mere suggestion from another group that they are animals. If you say that 'ghetto' people are 'barbarians, idiots etc' then by extension so are you, as you are Black as well. I will not attempt to perform some mental gymnastics to justify such a foolish position.

Finally I bring the UK and other places into my discussion for comparison. The language used here to describe working class blacks is no different to what you would hear in Eastern Europe when discussing the Roma. A group that interestingly forms a distinct racial underclass throughout Eastern and Central Europe. They originate from India, but unlike the Indian Diapora they are not successful at all. There is nothing instrincally black about falling into a socio-economic trap of poverty. It is by a mix of design (discriminatory policy) and cultural tendencies which themselves are often a byproduct of policy that results in certain groups consistently falling between the cracks. Hence change must also come from the top down, before the situation for working class blacks will ever change.

As for the other poster. how many posts can you make largely ranting about the UK? It is clear to me you have an axe to grind. I am not biased like yourself as I actually like the US in the main, but I am saddened by its poverty and the fact that it disproportionately affects black people. Racial integration means more than just your crude silly explanation of sexual access, as it means the classes are not divided. This is why poor black people are better off in the UK than in the US. This means that the debate about poverty in the UK is linked to class and not race, which is far better in my book. We can argue back and forth, but I sense emotion rather than logic (due to your ill treatment in the 70s) forms the basis for your arguments. Also other posters have corroborated their families have reported the same benign racial climate in the UK in places like London when compared to the US, so we can't all be wrong.

Sorry but I have seen you argue in other threads with British Caucasians with black partners dismissing their familes, Caucasian women who cherish racial integration in the UK and UK Caribbean Black women who told you were flat out wrong, yet you still drone on? Please take a step back and reflect on your opinions..

I'm British - at least I was - I lived there for the first 25 yrs of my life. Racism in the UK is so awful - becuase it is all subtly done, wink and nod, and the lack of open debate about it (which at least there is in the US) deludes the susceptible (and I have to put you into that category) into thinking its "its fine here - just look at those yanks!" The US has the compounded problem of poverty being concentrated in the same racial group which is the target of the most bigotry and animus, but the UK has nothing to be in a position to look down on the US in that sense. In the UK, even though overall killings are lower, it is still the case that a disproportionate number of those who die in or following police custody following the use of force are from black and minority ethnic communities (see Inquests' studies for a start). If you added the second US problem of gun culture - those figures would be far worse. Plus the immigration detainee deaths continue. But talk about hushed up! Its virtually impossible to find the data in the first place, let alone public outrage.

And those living in poverty? These are the facts for the UK (see Poverty org stats)
20% for White people. (and to be clear, white British is just 10%)
50% for Black Africans.
60% for Pakistanis.
70% for Bangladeshis.

Guess your skin color determines your poverty in the UK huh? So being black in the UK you are more likely to die in police custody than a white guy. And you are more likely to live in poverty if you are black in the UK.

The US is the lightning rod for all these discussions because - it is most open in the US. And that's fine. But it leads to a smugness in countries like the UK which smugness is not qualified by the facts.

Now as for gun culture and gun worship - the Brits can be smug about the American mess there, I'll give you that.

While I understand what you are saying, I cannot go down the same route as yourself and condemn them. As I tried to tease out with another poster, that class of so called 'ghetto' people were created. They are a product of a discriminatory system and America has only itself to blame.

Also as another suggested the reactions to black people are different to Caucasians. I remember experiencing this problem, when my son was crying in a store. People were tutting and passively aggressively suggesting that I should have done more to quieten down my son. At the same child, another Caucasian child was crying in the same fashion and no one said a word to the flaxen haired mother. The discrepancy was very obvious to me, so I ignored it and carried on as usual. Were I a so called 'ghetto' father with already internalised feelings of inadequacy, I might have tried harder to make my son be quiet (which would probably have been an overreaction).

People need to understand that they have been primed to see behaviour from different groups in completely different ways. This is societal and in America this is supported by bias in the media and on television. If I say 'who is loud?' and show people a card with an image of a group of black people on it and another with a group of white people on it, people automatically associate loudness with the image of black people. Tests on this are consistent from blacks to whites..

Linked to this is another issue, FEAR. One of the posters genuinely appears to fear working class black people. The simple assertion I would make is, how can you succeed as a people if you are afraid of someone who looks like you? My uncle explained this to me from a young age and believed that the failure of African Americans is because they have been taught to fear each other. Posh as I am, I have rolled through the roughest parts of the US without fear. Why because I have shown respect and genuine love for the people there. In fact some even said "we appreciate you coming down here and seeing our neighbourhood, as we are not animals". Whenever I hear such sentiments I am shocked that a fellow human will accept the mere suggestion from another group that they are animals. If you say that 'ghetto' people are 'barbarians, idiots etc' then by extension so are you, as you are Black as well. I will not attempt to perform some mental gymnastics to justify such a foolish position.

Finally I bring the UK and other places into my discussion for comparison. The language used here to describe working class blacks is no different to what you would hear in Eastern Europe when discussing the Roma. A group that interestingly forms a distinct racial underclass throughout Eastern and Central Europe. They originate from India, but unlike the Indian Diapora they are not successful at all. There is nothing instrincally black about falling into a socio-economic trap of poverty. It is by a mix of design (discriminatory policy) and cultural tendencies which themselves are often a byproduct of policy that results in certain groups consistently falling between the cracks. Hence change must also come from the top down, before the situation for working class blacks will ever change.

As for the other poster. how many posts can you make largely ranting about the UK? It is clear to me you have an axe to grind. I am not biased like yourself as I actually like the US in the main, but I am saddened by its poverty and the fact that it disproportionately affects black people. Racial integration means more than just your crude silly explanation of sexual access, as it means the classes are not divided. This is why poor black people are better off in the UK than in the US. This means that the debate about poverty in the UK is linked to class and not race, which is far better in my book. We can argue back and forth, but I sense emotion rather than logic (due to your ill treatment in the 70s) forms the basis for your arguments. Also other posters have corroborated their families have reported the same benign racial climate in the UK in places like London when compared to the US, so we can't all be wrong.

Sorry but I have seen you argue in other threads with British Caucasians with black partners dismissing their familes, Caucasian women who cherish racial integration in the UK and UK Caribbean Black women who told you were flat out wrong, yet you still drone on? Please take a step back and reflect on your opinions..

I'm British - at least I was - I lived there for the first 25 yrs of my life. Racism in the UK is so awful - becuase it is all subtly done, wink and nod, and the lack of open debate about it (which at least there is in the US) deludes the susceptible (and I have to put you into that category) into thinking its "its fine here - just look at those yanks!" The US has the compounded problem of poverty being concentrated in the same racial group which is the target of the most bigotry and animus, but the UK has nothing to be in a position to look down on the US in that sense. In the UK, even though overall killings are lower, it is still the case that a disproportionate number of those who die in or following police custody following the use of force are from black and minority ethnic communities (see Inquests' studies for a start). If you added the second US problem of gun culture - those figures would be far worse. Plus the immigration detainee deaths continue. But talk about hushed up! Its virtually impossible to find the data in the first place, let alone public outrage.

And those living in poverty? These are the facts for the UK (see Poverty org stats)
20% for White people. (and to be clear, white British is just 10%)
50% for Black Africans.
60% for Pakistanis.
70% for Bangladeshis.

Guess your skin color determines your poverty in the UK huh? So being black in the UK you are more likely to die in police custody than a white guy. And you are more likely to live in poverty if you are black in the UK.

The US is the lightning rod for all these discussions because - it is most open in the US. And that's fine. But it leads to a smugness in countries like the UK which smugness is not qualified by the facts.

Now as for gun culture and gun worship - the Brits can be smug about the American mess there, I'll give you that.

Hmm just checked the source you cited and the low income stats also show figures for 30% for

Indians and Caribbeans

Thats not far off the White figure of 20%, which includes European Immigrants. Those figures are more indicative of the fact that the figures for Black Africans also includes newly arrived immigrant groups like Somalis.

By contrast all indicators for African Americans against the white population in the US show HUGE disparities

The poverty figures for Caribbeans in the US are not the same as Indians in the US!!

With African Americans more likely to be murdered than folks in Namibia!!! Whereas for Caucasians the figure at levels on a par with European countries with strict gun laws!!

One third of African American men have been in prison..

The median white family in the US in 2013 had net assets of $142,000; the median black family had a paltry $11,000

Some 60% of black students have yet to complete a four-year degree after six years, compared with 37% of whites.

Compare these figures with those in the UK that show poor West African children and Caribbean children outperform poor Caucasian children academcally in the UK.

The UK isn't perfect but on a lot of indicators, but Black folk fare better in the UK than in the US

Also please note that wealthy Black African folk have chosen London as their favoured destination over say New York, the bigger question is why? If money is the great insulator, wouldn't their preferences be equal?

You may had bad experiences in the UK, but please dont try to pass off the US as some better choice in any measurable sense..

Hmm just checked the source you cited and the low income stats also show figures for 30% for

Indians and Caribbeans

Thats not far off the White figure of 20%, which includes European Immigrants. Those figures are more indicative of the fact that the figures for Black Africans also includes newly arrived immigrant groups like Somalis.

By contrast all indicators for African Americans against the white population in the US show HUGE disparities

The poverty figures for Caribbeans in the US are not the same as Indians in the US!!

With African Americans more likely to be murdered than folks in Namibia!!! Whereas for Caucasians the figure at levels on a par with European countries with strict gun laws!!

One third of African American men have been in prison..

The median white family in the US in 2013 had net assets of $142,000; the median black family had a paltry $11,000

Some 60% of black students have yet to complete a four-year degree after six years, compared with 37% of whites.

Compare these figures with those in the UK that show poor West African children and Caribbean children outperform poor Caucasian children academcally in the UK.

The UK isn't perfect but on a lot of indicators, but Black folk fare better in the UK than in the US

Also please note that wealthy Black African folk have chosen London as their favoured destination over say New York, the bigger question is why? If money is the great insulator, wouldn't their preferences be equal?

You may had bad experiences in the UK, but please dont try to pass off the US as some better choice in any measurable sense..

You are in denial, that's fine. I don't expect decades of denial to evaporate with just simple facts.

As for why someone with a boatload of money whose home country is in Africa wanting to buy in a wealthy stable interesting country chooses London over the US. Oh not much reason, apart from about 10 hours flying time back and forth from home and a few thousand miles. Flight time Nairobi to NY - 18hrs. Flight time Nairobi to London - 8 hours. Jeeze the lengths people go to rationalize constructs built on denial.

As for a "better choice" - I don't need to argue that. The immigration figures already show the US is the preferred destination by actual people (not theoreticals). Even the UK itself has sent more than 50,000 immigrants to the US in the last three years.

being in denial and adding to the hush up - you are part of the problem in the UK. No outrage at black deaths in police custody. No outrage at extremely disproportionate poverty levels between minorities and British whites. Easier to distract with "look over there!"

It if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quack likes a duck, it's a duck. Living in the ghetto as a teen is not the problem - as many of us have done that. Acting a fool and behaving like you're demonized is a problem. It all goes back to the duck scenario.

Unless someone is directly threatening someone nobody has the right to be judgmental.

When one compares the rates of arrests of blacks in the UK relative to whites, with that of the USA blacks in the UK are MORE likely to be arrested. Young British blacks have the SAME problems that young American blacks have. I find it funny that a British blacks will engage in chatter that the UK is miles ahead.

A FACT however is the openness of the USA allows immigrants to achieve more upward mobility in the FIRST generation, than is possible in the UK.

The USA has had its tragic history of de jure and de facto Jim Crow, on top of slavery. One can argue that American blacks were oppressed from their arrival as slaves in 1619 until some point in the early 70s, this being 350 years.

Given that this extensive period will have had severe negative impacts on large segments of the US black population, and given that the UK lacks a similar native black population, it becomes fairer to compare Caribbean/African immigrants and their descendants who migrated to the USA with those who migrated to the UK.

Such a comparison indicates that those who migrated to the USA DID MUCH BETTER than did those who migrated to the UK. In fact that Caribbean British population is considered a "problem" population, in a way that the Caribbean American population is not.

Ask a British black why the UK is better and all we hear are how many white friends that they have. They cannot prove that Caribbean/Africans and their descendants are enjoying higher standards of living than they would in the USA.

I sincerely feel for them, because being only 3% of the overall British population, and maybe a mere 1% of the professional/management class, they will be quite lonely if whites didn't feel sorry for them. So they need to say nice things about race relations in the UK to avoid alienating these whites whose company they need.

We do NOT have that problem in the USA, even at the professional/management level. Increasing numbers of US blacks wield significant power, and Americans are increasingly aware of this.

In 2015 I really don't think that either the US or the UK can adopt a level of smugness about racism in comparison with each other. Yes the UK has moved ahead BUT SO HAS the USA. BOTH still have a lot more to do before EITHER can boast that race is no longer a predictor of social status.

If you're going to talk about immigrant Blacks in the US, Obama is the son of a Kenyan Muslim and Colin Powell (secretary of state) is Jamaican. So we definitely have had high profile first or second generation American Blacks and that is an indication of social mobility here. Of course there are high profile "native" Blacks too.

Obviously immigrants of all socioeconomic backgrounds come here. Tourists from around the world come here. You're an Ivy Leaguer yourself, at any top university you will find students from all around the world.

I'm not claiming the US is perfect, but nograviti is talking utter nonsense. Wealthy non whites have no problem investing and COMING to the US to live, study, or visit.

If they got on and act like someone with some sense, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If I saw any other group of teens loudly cursing, yell-talking, scream laughing, and talking sexually explicit, I would have NO problem identifying the culprits. I don't have a problem saying what I believe because I believe that wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing in and right is right even if no one is doing it.

Let's stick to my point, it's abhorrent BEHAVIOR that is the problem. Bad diction and slang are just accessories. My problem is with the BEHAVIOR. The only people being judged are the ones who act like this - not all Black teens, but "ghetto" Black teens. Ghetto describes the behavior. I'm sure you already know that but want to try to justify their behavior simply because they're Black. That is the problem! This low class behavior has been justified and protected too long in the hood. We're the only people I know of that waste so much of our energy supporting and going to bat for criminals, the lazy, and the stupid. It backfires it every time!

New generations coming up think that is the norm of how they should act because hey they grew up seeing people act like fools around them and nary an eye was batted by parents, loved ones, or friends. Consequently, instead of decreasing bad behavior, it's increases because monkey see, monkey do.

If you've experienced White teens acting this way on the train or bus, feel free to share your story.

Exactly!

Just the other day one of those hip hop pole dancers assaulted a man just for video recording the performance. Punched him in the face then spat on him.

I've been riding the train since the early 80's therefore I have first hand experience and am qualified to make a statement on the types of people who cause problems on the train. It has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with those who have and those who lack morals and respect. For the most part, it is young black teens who cause the most chaos on the subways. Sure you'll have isolated incidents of people of other races causing a ruckus, but I would say that 85% of the time its young black teens who are the ones cursing, pushing and stirring up problems in the subway. It is what is is.....

You are in denial, that's fine. I don't expect decades of denial to evaporate with just simple facts.

As for why someone with a boatload of money whose home country is in Africa wanting to buy in a wealthy stable interesting country chooses London over the US. Oh not much reason, apart from about 10 hours flying time back and forth from home and a few thousand miles. Flight time Nairobi to NY - 18hrs. Flight time Nairobi to London - 8 hours. Jeeze the lengths people go to rationalize constructs built on denial.

As for a "better choice" - I don't need to argue that. The immigration figures already show the US is the preferred destination by actual people (not theoreticals). Even the UK itself has sent more than 50,000 immigrants to the US in the last three years.

being in denial and adding to the hush up - you are part of the problem in the UK. No outrage at black deaths in police custody. No outrage at extremely disproportionate poverty levels between minorities and British whites. Easier to distract with "look over there!"

Someone is in denial and it isn't myself. You cited a source omitting data that didn't suit your argument. Then you gloss over that fact along with the other clear facts I cited.

Disproportionate poverty levels? I already showed the data for foreign whites, Indians and Caribbeans is remarkably close. For populations that are non white and foreign in origin I would say that is pretty good. The comparable figures for America make grim reading..

As for your custody data, besides saying the data is hushed up, provide some firm data or it is conjecture.

The figures for wealthy Africans show that they are disproportionately west African in origin.

Lagos to NYC 11 hours

Lagos to London 7 hours

A Kenyan is not a Nigerian and despite what you have heard Africa is not a country, so try again.

Ultimately my efforts to compare US and UK black populations was born out of an effort to suggest what changes could be made to improve the lot of working class African Americans. While the reference to wealthy africans migration choices also reflects the fact that even they have been influenced by bad press and negative experiences when visiting the US.

What is intriguing for me is that you want to argue over who has it better, than ultimately acknowledge structural racism in the US, which results in markedly different social outcomes for black and white populations in the main. Other groups must be tickling themselves with laughter..

As other posters suggested except for rural appalachian populations, find me the Caucasian version of the south side of Chicago? Where are the Caucasian Ghettos and still you defend this aspect of America..

Hipsters indirectly say they don't want their children mixing with predominantly black children as they are 'ghetto' and that isn't a problem for you?? I am truly dumbstruck..

What bursts this guy's bag is that I have relatives who live in the UK. I hear the conflicts that they have. On the one hand claiming that race isn't an issue, yet when a son was arrested by the police (the SAME racial profiling which happens in the USA) they were afraid to go to the police station on their own, and had to bring a white friend with them. They knowing full well that their occupation as a physician would be meaningless to these white police men.

They have a problem that we don't, and that is the black professional/management class is very small, and so they lack the ability to engage in the conversations that we in the USA can, with our increasingly large and empowered professional/management class.

Bottom line is a black person who is educated, has drive and strong interpersonal skills is MUCH, MUCH better off in the USA than they would be in the UK.

I mean what else can this guy chat about other than all of his white friends. He doesn't seem to understand that when we want to get white friends in cities like NYC that is NO problem. We don't have to ingratiate ourselves with them either.

Exactly so there is no need for us to even speak about that. It's no big deal.

The Black political class in the UK also seems to be small in the UK.

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