Idon'tunderstandwhy databook listed him as Kekkei Mōra user, is it because he was a Jinchūriki of Ten-Tails? I thought only Rinne Sharingan fits into this category but it seems that Kaguya's Byakugan can also be said to be a Kekkei Mōra, if it is true then Hagoromo's Rinnegan should be classified as Kekkei Mōra, thoughts?--[[User:Naruto uzu6254|Naruto uzu6254]] ([[User talk:Naruto uzu6254|talk]]) 20:43, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

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:Nope, we can't just assume that. Madara and Hagoromo had the same Rinnegan. Nagato and Obito had Madara's Rinnegan, yet they aren't KKM users, are they? So it's unlikely to be because of the Rinnegan.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 21:21, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

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::I thought it was because of his TSB... but oh well... speculation for now...

:Theproblemis that wedon't have a clear [or complete] definition of the term"kekkei mora" & no one can make one...we just know it's a brand of jutsu unique to kaguya&whoever has her chakra...wedon'twhatitactuallyisordoes...& unfortunately, up until now the manga hasn't given anything concrete about it...hope the mini series does that...btw, when is it coming exactly...also is there gonna be an otsutsuki gaiden before it...U know...like the kakashi one...a lotta things can be explained there...& sry for going off topic :D --'''[[User:DARK ZER06 |DARK ZERO]]'''--''[[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]''22:06, January19, 2015 (UTC)

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:No, but the fact that he created ninjutsu is enough to put it there.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 17:12, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

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::He discovered the mysteries of chakra. Considering that after the Sage, Madara is the earliest known user of the Rinnegan, and that people already fabled the Rinnegan as allowing one to use the five natures, it makes sense for him to be listed as having them. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 17:37, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering that may be KKM actually comes from Ten-Tailsandbecause he wasJinchurikihisRinneganmighthave become superior, we don't know the extent of Hagoromo's Rinnegan so we can't compare Madara and Hagoromo's Rinnegan only because they look same in appearance, so just saying that it could be KKM and the reason behind it is that he was Jinchuriki and he could control Ten-Tails, we also know the third databook listed Rinnegan as Kekkei Genkai but only the fourth DB listed Hagoromo'sRinneganasKekkeiMoramakingit as an exception, does anybody know what the databook is saying about this? may be we can ignore this as it wasn't explained in manga.--[[User:Naruto uzu6254|Naruto uzu6254]] ([[User talk:Naruto uzu6254|talk]]) 13:51, February3, 2015 (UTC)

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== Rinnegan ==

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== Rinnegan Kekkei Genkai ==

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Are we really sure that Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming a host ?

:::Considering other mistakes that made it into the book, for example, Danzo not being marked as having a summon, I believe this is clearly just a mistake. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:42, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

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::::What about Kaguya's Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku? Both are listed as Kekkei Mora, she doesn't have a Kekkei Genkai symbol either.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:45, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

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So when exactly are we gonna just right off that damned book if it's so littered with mistakes?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Eye of Rikudō.svg|30px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:46, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

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:Why do you automatically assume this to be a mistake?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:47, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

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::Kaguya's All Killing Ash Bones is superior and stronger version of Shikotsumyaku and it is already listed as Kekkei Mora so no need to list Shikotsumyaku--[[User:Naruto uzu6254|Naruto uzu6254]] ([[User talk:Naruto uzu6254|talk]]) 16:50, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

::::It's not in her infobox as kekkei mora nor do we have an article for it. Why don't we just add Shikotsumyaku as kekkei mora to her infobox and change her byakugan to kekkei mora as well and call it a day? Same with Hagoromo and his Rinnegan.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:54, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Theveryoppositeofthatactually,itwouldbewritingdowninformationexactlyasprovided.IfthebooksaysKaguyahas Kekkei Mora and no KekkeiGenkai, thenuslistingherByakugan as Kekkei Genkai and her Shikotsumyaku as nothing is us doing it wrong--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup>17:02, February5, 2015 (UTC)

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Areyousure?NarutoandGaaraareaffectedbytheirTailedBeastsandtell this toUchiha.

::Shikotsumyakuisthe name of the kekkei genkai, just like Sharingan.Also,she does not possess the Shikotsumyaku and her Byakugan wasn't called a Kekkei Mora, either. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 17:10, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

:::Considering Jin no Sho lists her as Kekkei Mora user but not Kekkei Genkai, it was indeed. Not to mention her vacuum palm tech is also Kekkei Mora, likely for the same reason [[Lightning Transmission]] is Kekkei Genkai.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup>17:16, February5, 2015 (UTC)

:::::An exclusion that is known to be a mistake is one thing, but assuming something is included by error is speculation. I thought you once said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, now you are backtracking. Look at her techniques:

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* God: Nativity of a World of Trees = Kekkei Mora, most likely because her Mokuton is Kekkei Mora (and don't start again that bullshit about Ten-Tails having Mokuton but not Kaguya please)

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* All-Killing Ash Bones = Kekkei Mora, because her version of Shikotsumyaku is

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* Amenominaka = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one

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* Infinite Tsukuyomi = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one

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* Rabbit Hair Needle = Kekkei Mora, presumably because it's used in conjunction with her Byakugan, pretty much stating it to be one

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* Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack = Kekkei more, hence used with her Byakugan which is one as is obvious to me, just like Hyuga Vacuum Palm attacks are Kekkei Genkai because they are used with their Byakugan which is Kekkei Genkai.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 17:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

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I'mprettysuregiventheinformationwehavecurrently. Naruto and "Gaara" (to someextentthoughhisfatherhasthesameeyes so I can't speak 100% about the rings or even his abilities) gained physical traits from their beasts, not otherwise.There is Rōshibutatthe same time we don't know if he'd be able to use it without the beast. The Sharingan is an"offspring" of the original and apparently only dōjutsu: the Rinnegan. We've even seen where Kabuto has said "what lies beyond the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan..." It seems like somewhere along the line on descendants the eyes changed etc. The Jūbi's eye cab look like all three of the great dōjutsu if you wanted it to.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:HyūgaSymbol.svg|20px]] 19:16, November28, 2011 (UTC)

:Exactly. And this is exactly why I asked Seelentau if he considers himself a hypocrite. On one hand, he makes a forum thread with: "facts guys, we write what's stated" then he goes off to oppose what's stated because he doesn't like it :-/--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 19:20, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

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Weareatleastprettysure(atleastnow) that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, unlessas I said it would mean that Sage had both.

:Err,Imaybesaidthat Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, but that was speculation, not a fact. I can't even remember when I said that, but sorry if that wasn't obvious. • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 13:29, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

:::And what does that have to do with this? • [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]] <sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup>16:53, February7, 2015 (UTC)

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::::Exactly that, listing things as stated? Kaguya and Hagoromo have kekkei mora label and no kekkei genkai one, so it should be reflected as such.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 16:55, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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:::::Databook made A LOT of mistakes, let's not contradict with the manga. Byakugan and Rinnegan were said to be Kekkei Genkai, so they should stay as that.--[[User:Omojuze|Omojuze]] ([[User talk:Omojuze|talk]]) 17:03, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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Iwouldlike to hearmorepeople's opinionsonthis and admin's as well.

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"Notourjob to correctmistakes"you guys said. Also there's adifference between correcting known/obvious mistakes, like omitted users, natures etc. and ASSUMING that something was included by mistake. I wholeheartedly doubt that this is a mistake, since as I said above, Kaguya's palm and hair techniques are listed both as Kekkei Mora and both use Byakugan, not sure what more evidence do you need.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 17:16, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

:Well I believe Seelentau was not the one who stated that her whole body is Kekkei Mora according to [[Talk:Rabbit_Hair_Needle|this]] it was just our assumption, but as our understanding goes there should be a reason to list Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora and also Kaguya's techniques are already listed as Kekkei Mora except the Byakugan but we shouldn't be really adding this as it could be wrong, or it may be added as a trivia point, the manga stated her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball as Kekkei Mora, only the databook lists all of her technique, everything is okay now only Byakugan is the problem.--[[User:Naruto uzu6254|Naruto uzu6254]] ([[User talk:Naruto uzu6254|talk]]) 17:19, February7, 2015 (UTC)

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::Elveonora - Wut? Are you suggesting that a genetic trait can be considered kekkei genkai for one person and kekkei mora for the other, even though the usage, appearance and everything about it known to us is the same? Not only that, Rabbit Hair Needle and Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack only use the Byakugan to ensure that the techniques hit the viral points or something. Byakugan is not needed to perform those techniques, and saying that it is would be speculation. Again, how come a thing that looks the same and has the exact same function be one for one person, and different for the other?--[[User:Omojuze|Omojuze]] ([[User talk:Omojuze|talk]]) 17:26, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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:::I'm not suggesting anything. The databook lists all her techniques as Kekkei Mora, even those listed with Byakugan and she has no Kekkei Genkai user classification, what is here to be argued about exactly?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 17:52, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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::::None of her techniques are listed with Byakugan ([[Rabbit Hair Needle]] is listed, but it shouldn't be because it doesn't require the Byakugan).--[[User:Omojuze|Omojuze]] ([[User talk:Omojuze|talk]]) 18:00, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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:::::None of the Hyuga Gentle Fist techniques "require" the Byakugan, yet they are listed as Kekkei Genkai because they are used in conjunction with it. Same for [[Lightning Transmission]] it doesn't require the Sharingan in order to be cast, it requires it in order to be used effectively. Also just to answer the above, Kaguya's ETSB is Kekkei Mora while the TSB isn't, yet they have the same make-up, so there goes an example.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 18:09, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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::::::Both sides have valid points in this discussion. However, we do need to ensure we're displaying proper information, so if something is missing which should be present, it should be added. --[[User:SuperSajuuk|Sajuuk]] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:SuperSajuuk|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SuperSajuuk|contribs]] | [http://youtube.com/LPSajuuk Channel]</small></sup> 18:38, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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Ithinkthatsayinghegot the Rinnegan because he became a host is highly speculative. We've knownhim as havingthekekkeigenkaiformuchlongerthanhimhavingthebeast.Likeit was said already, therewe'veneverseenhimwithoutthe Rinnegan, or at least awakening it for the first time. Consideringwhatweknowaboutit,Ithinkit'sleastspeculativeto say he had itbefore. Whilesealingthe Ten-Tails is a big feat, heisfirst and foremost known for discovering chakra and creating what came to be calledninjutsu.Tosealsomething,useoffūinjutsuisrequired,ergo,wewouldhave had to discover ninjutsu before sealing the Ten-Tails. TheRinneganwassaidto allow one to use all sorts of ninjutsu. This leads me to him having the Rinnegan before sealing the Ten-Tails. I'm not saying the other way is impossible, but it would require more explanation, so this sounds much more likely to me. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:01, November29, 2011 (UTC)

:so.... what? We just create an article called "Kaguya's Byakugan" and list it as a KKM? Ha. I kid, I kid. Though honestly, Hagoromo listed as a KKM user and not a KKG user complicates things as well... -- [[User:WindStar7125|WindStar7125]] ([[User talk:WindStar7125|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|contribs]]) 19:02, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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::No, we just put Byakugan into "kekkei mora" part of the infobox in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Hagoromo's and mention in Byakugan and Rinnegan articles that theirs are somehow Kekkei Mora, that's all.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 19:04, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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:::Affirming that Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a KKM? Hell, I did the same with his TSB, but that was rejected by Seelentau as well. -- [[User:WindStar7125|WindStar7125]] ([[User talk:WindStar7125|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|contribs]]) 19:07, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

:::::Neither is the Rinnegan nor Byakugan. But their users are. Also, the databook stated that Kaguya doesn't have Shikotsumyaku, but that Shikotsumyaku is a derived technique of her ability to manipulate her bone structure (got that from FF-Suzaku, in case you were wondering). -- [[User:WindStar7125|WindStar7125]] ([[User talk:WindStar7125|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/WindStar7125|contribs]]) 19:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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* And we knowIceRelease,WoodReleasemuchlonger that thembeingaKKG.

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But we shouldcallitsomething.It'sgeneticyet it isn't in her kekkei part of infobox. That's why I proposed listing her as Kekkei Mora Shikotsumyaku user, since that'sbetterthan"Kaguya'sbone powers" or something.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 20:12, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

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* We have not seen Nagato's eyes without the Rinnegan as well

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* We have not seen So6p awakening it, seriously ? We have not yet seen him at all other than the silhouette.

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* Madara can switch between the Rinnegan and EMS ... and turn them on and off.

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* The point being that the Rinnegan and Sharingan are the one and same eyes, meaning that Sharingan has not devolved from Rinnegan nor evolved.

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* Kabuto said it's a natural evolution meaning it's possible to attain the Rinnegan from a Sharingan by normal but unknown means.

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* Taking Hashirama's cells is a forced evolution.

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* When Rinnegan and Sharingan were once basically the same, this mean Sage had a Sharingan as well.

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* This would mean that the Ten-Tail's single unique eye is not unique at all and it was just a result of being under So6p's genjutsu.

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Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers we know of.

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* If Sage was born with the Rinnegan, it must really be just a mutation as Kakashi said.

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That would make it as rare as Wood Release

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* Or Sage was really a demi-God

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* Or the most possible variant is he get that from Ten-Tails.

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Thinking that the 2 most powerful abilities (Sharingan and Rinnegan) in Narutoverse are just a mere mutation is silly.

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So6p being really a demi-God is possible.

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As I said, Uchiha are descended from So6p ... they possess the Sharingan.

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People say that Sage casted a genjutsu on Ten-Tails and thats why its eyes has the Rinnegan like pattern.

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As I said, there are no genjutsu powers of Rinnegan we know of.

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That would still mean that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails and that Tailed Beast powers are hereditary.

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Another but weird possibility is that Sage's original eyes were Sharingan and he get the Rinnegan from Ten-Tails.

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It would be much more believable one of his sons inherited the eyes from him and not from the beast inside of him.

-Ahem-Notaforum.Anyway, theSagedidnothavetheSharingan. I don't have to theorizeoranythingtostatethat. Hissonhad his owndojutsu,whichwasvisuallyverysimilar to theRinnegan. TheSharinganevolvedfrom the ElderSon'sdojutus, ergoitisveryodd to say the Sage hadit.

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Justthrowingthisoutthere, butmaybeKekkeiMoraisjust aninclusive term. It does use inclusive wording. Like, you don't have to say"he'sgotkekkeimoraand kekkei genkai" because just saying "he's got kekkei mora" already tells the whole story. Ormaybe,as suggested elsewhere, his traitsarekekkeimorabecause they're a more "pure" version of whatever waspasseddown to latergenerations. Frankly, I think it would actually probably be easier to just do what the databooksdoandmake the infoboxes ''more''ambigious. Add "Kekkei Genkai,""KekkeiTota,""KekkeiMora,"and "Summoner" to the classification section, like Sage andJinchuriki (which is what the databook does). Then figure out a different way to list their unique genetic mutations. [[User:FF-Suzaku|FF-Suzaku]] ([[User talk:FF-Suzaku|talk]]) 15:00, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

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AndItoo find it veryunlikelyandmuchlessspeculativetosayhehadtheRinneganbeforethe Jubi sealing. Being able to see chakra would definitely be abighelpindiviningthe mysteries of chakra, which he did.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]])22:43, November29, 2011 (UTC)

If Rinnegan is a natural evolution from Sharingan, this would make Sharingan a degradation.

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If Uchiha got the Sharingan from Ten-Tails, this mean it's not related to Rinnegan since you say Sage had it before sealing thus it cant be an degradation nor evolution of it.

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If Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan before sealing, this would make it more believable that one of his son's line inherited the eyes from Sage rather than fron the Ten-Tails ... but this would leave the Ten-Tail's without any kind of unique eye thus the only possible version is Sage getting an eye technique after the sealing.

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And I know its not a forum ... I'm discussing it to improve the page.

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Saying Sage found chakra/jutsu thanks to being born with Rinnegan was not confirmed and it's more of a speculation to what Im saying.

Exceptitisn'tspeculativeand I did read your post properly. Several things are being assumed, such as that the Sage didn't have his sons before he was a jinchuuricki and that the Uchiha's possessionofthe Sharingan is related to the Jubi. I didn't say that the Rinnegan was the sole reason the Sage mastered the use of chakra, andevenif I had, that wouldn't have been nearly as speculative as saying he had the Sharingan orwhatever.Weallknowthatthe3 dojutsu give varying degrees of chakra sight. Also, he learned to make use of chakra through ninjutsu before he sealed the Jubi (duh).

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ItwassaidIndrainherited his father's eyes,buthe didn't inherit the Rinnegan, soHagoromomust have had the Sharingan too?--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']]{{Mod}}<sup><small>[[Usertalk:Elveonora|TalkPage]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup>06:28,July9, 2015 (UTC)

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Also, you're assuming that the evolution of a particular bodily function is automatically better than its previous incarnation, which is incorrect. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 23:31, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

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Sorrythen, butyouseethispoint.

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Itwasn't meant to be taken literal, byeyesitmeanthis dojutsu, the Sharingan, which is a devolved form of Rinnegan. Hagoromo has, in every case, always been depicted with nothing more than Rinnegan, even stated to be born with it I believe. Kaguya's Rinne Sharingan devolved into her son's Rinnegan, which devolved into his son's Sharingan. His Rinnegan is also a Kekkei Mora, not Kekkei Genkai, so I'm sure he always had it. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 06:32, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

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Ten-Tail'seyelook like acombinationofbothSharingan and Rinnegan.

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:Who has ever said Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan? Rinne Sharingan devolved into Rinnegan as you say, hence it doesn'tmakesense. It's more like RinneSharingansplitintoRinnegan and Sharingan, like sibling doujutsu instead of parent-child doujutsu.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 11:12, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

:::Is"eyes"what the manga/databook said or is it just us using "eyes" instead of eyes. So are you saing super powered Sharingan turned into Rinnegan to turn into depowered Sharingan? Makes more sense that Rinne Sharingan split into both. But that again, even if I'm right, that doesn't mean Hagoromo had Sharingan becauseitmight have been recessive genes for him, hmph.--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve''']] {{Mod}} <sup><small>[[User talk:Elveonora|Talk Page]]|[[Special:Contributions/Elveonora|Contribs]]</small></sup> 12:38, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

IfRinnegan is anevolutionfrom Sharingan, and SagegotRinneganbefore... thenTen-Tail'shasnospecialeye and thismeanSage had Sharingan aswell.

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TheRinne Sharingan is theoriginof both of Rinnegan and Sharingan, and issuperiortothemboth. KaguyahadRinneSharingan,herson had Rinnegan, and hergrandsonhad Sharingan. Basically, the "eyes" got weaker with each generation until Indra had a whole clan of Sharingan usingdescendants. Hagoromo has the genes for it, or else he couldn't pass it on, but I highly doubt he had it himself. --[[User:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4]] ([[User talk:Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4|talk]]) 15:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

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But you disagree with Sage having a Sharingan thus my "speculation" being plausible.

IftheSagehadthe Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails had the Sharingan, why would it be "higher" than the Rinnegan? The Sage did seal the Ten-Tails, so wouldn't that put the powers of the Rinnegan above the powers of the Sharingan? [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 23:45, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

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==Incorrectanimeapperiance==

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Guys who did edits on Hago's apperiance, i think you jumping the gun here: If you look at Hagoromo rinnegan tattoo on his forehead and his hairs in flashback from same shippuden episode(the one about Asura and Indra) or flashback where he was born you will see that he has same red hair color and in Naruto subconscious Hagoromo's apperiance is different because of environment light effect(color filter) here (http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150723123439/naruto/images/0/06/Hagoromo_and_his_two_sons.png) and here (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150723122837/naruto/images/8/81/Kaguya_and_her_sons.png) we can see how he really looks like. So this picture that used in Hagoromo's toolbox is incorrect as well as this line '''"He also had a red (purple in the anime) Rinnegan marking in the centre of his forehead"''' from apperiance section. ./ [[User:Rage gtx|Rage gtx]] ([[User talk:Rage gtx|talk]]) 07:24, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

Inthelast,Hagoromo was depicted as he was in the manga, so whats more important, [[:file:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki.png|quality]] or [[:file:Hagoromo Red Dot.png|correct depiction]]? --[[User:Sarutobii2|Sarutobii2]] ([[User talk:Sarutobii2|talk]]) 01:03, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

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EDIT: Unlessyourquestion is ifit'sfrom the samesource,why is RinneganstrongerthanSharingan.

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:Ithinkbothare important, but the difference in "correct depiction" is nothingcomparedto the differenceinquality in regards to those two pics. The current picture is farbetterinmy opinion.--[[User:Minamoto15|Mina]] [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] <small><sup> [[User talk:Minamoto15|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Minamoto15|contribs]]</sup></small> 01:08, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

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Notreally, EMS and Rinneganaremoreorlessequalinpower.

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::Imfine with either. Just noticed in the current image, Hagoromo is missing a neck and hisheadisseamlesslyfloatingXD--[[User:Sarutobii2|Sarutobii2]]([[User talk:Sarutobii2|talk]]) 01:17, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Idon'tmeanto interrupt, but who says the Ten-Tails has to have a special eye? Who says that the Sharingan can't be evolved from the Rinnegan? Some snakes developed gills to leave in the sea, but lost the lungs. What if the Sage's son that inherited his eyes had the Rinnegan, but <i>his</i> children lost the Rinnegan and developed the Sharingan because of the world not <i>needing</i> such power? It is said in a legend that a user with the Rinnegan only comes in times of need, who would destroy the world, or create a better world, for example, Nagato. Nagato was the "god of creation" that the legend talked about, although instead of creating a better world himself, he helped make a huge step in creating a better one. What I'm saying is that you are all speculating that the Ten-Tails needs a special eye.

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==CoffinSeal==

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I do not read much of the manga, but thanks to your wiki and the anime I have been able to conclude all this. Like Nagato, I hope that this helps to create a world of understanding within the wiki. [[User:Max042599|Max042599]] ([[User talk:Max042599|talk]]) 00:50, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

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thanksforbeingpartofthediscussion,butthepointbeingisthatif the Ten-Tailshasnosucheyeand it wasalljustareflectionofSage'seyes,hehadSharinganaswell.

SowiththisI'm going to go with the "this isn't aforum" speech because these theories aren't bettering any articles or getting us any where. We represent information as we see it,notbasedofftheoriesor assumptions.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:HyūgaSymbol.svg|20px]] 01:14, November30, 2011 (UTC)

Beforeendingthisfriendlydiscussion I wouldliketohearoutShounenSuki's opinion as well.

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whetherit'sthecoffinseal or SPS the question remains the same...why does he still have it after loosing the jubi...& 1 more thing I noticedisthatwhenhewas talking about splitting the jubi's chakrathe panel was zoomed on this mark...as the 9 tomoe represents the 9 TBs...but if this is the case then he should have had this mark after the splitting...not after the jubi's sealing...& also 1more thing...if I remember correctly zetsu said that not even hagoromo knew that the jubi was shinju+kaguya, but when hagoromo was talking to naruto after the battle of kaguya Vs team 7, he sounded like he knew it way before all of this...he even said how did naruto feel fighting his mother & shit like that...too much inconsistencies :|... --'''[[User:DARK ZER06 |DARK ZERO]]'''--''[[User talk:DARK ZER06|talk]]'' 21:28, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

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Iwillnolongerreplyuntilfurthermangaevidencethen ...

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:Don'tyouthinkit'splausiblethatHogoromowassimplywearingreal clothing...? Markings don't appear and disappear from real clothing unless the owner is going in and out of chakra modes. Since I don't see the characteristic chakra "flame" coming off Hagoromo's form I don't think he's in one, therein meaning that those markings are a part of his clothing. --[[User:Atrix471|Atrix471]] ([[User talk:Atrix471|talk]]) 21:33, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

:Mygods,this discussion has gotoutofhand…SoifI'mnotmistaken, it's aboutwhether the Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming the Jūbi'sjinchūriki,right?ifso, the answerisreally: wesimplydon'tknow.

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buthestill has theTSBs&theflightability:|....he should'velostall of these when he farted the jubi out of him...whether it's thecoffin seal or the SPS, he should have lost it...why does he still have it...unless he had it/them from the beginning...but we don't have any proof for that matter except that he HAD the TSB before sealing his mother...donno how many though...not to mention the sixpathsyangmarkwhich I god knows where the hellhegot that from or had that two by himself... --'''[[User:DARKZER06|DARKZERO]]'''--''[[Usertalk:DARK ZER06|talk]]'' 21:40, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

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:I could speculate, of course. It is heavily implied that the Sage used his Rinnegan to develop ninjutsu, and he used ninjutsu to seal the Jūbi, hence he should have had the Rinnegan before beciming a jinchūriki. Still, we really won't know for certain until we're shown an image of the sage from before he had become a jinchūriki.

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:The connection between the Sharingan and the Rinnegan is still quite murky as well. We know the Rinnegan can be awakened from the Sharingan, but we don't know if this is entirely natural. Senju genes are most likely involved and who knows what other physical alterations. Still, the Sharingan does have Rinnegan potential, so to speak. However, this doesn't mean that the Sage had the Sharingan as well. It could very well be that the Rinnegan came first, only to slowly 'degrade' into the Sharingan over the centuries, while still carrying the potential to become a Rinnegan, if only when mixed with Senju genes. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 01:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

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Then if Sage had Rinnegan and it degraded into Sharingan generations later, and with Senju genes its possible to awake Rinnegan from Sharingan, then how is it that back then Ten-Tail's eye appeared with Sharingan pattern ?

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Sage would had it before or it was Ten-Tail's natural eye and the Rinnegan patern was because it was under Sage's control.

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Or both Sharingan and Rinnegan is Ten-Tail's original eye.

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Rinnegan could not degrade into Sharingan when it appeared even back then, so Sage had Sharingan/Rinnegan before or it was Ten-Tail's eye and he got that after sealing.

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I don't know if its that hard to understand what Im talking about ... english is not my native language but hopefully now you understand what I mean.

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So:

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* Sage had Rinnegan and Ten-Tails had Sharingan (It appeared with the Rinnegan pattern due to be under Sage's genjutsu) ... then how is it that Sharingan can turn into Rinnegan when the two are not related ? Uchiha possess Sharingan, this would indicate that Tailed Beast powers/features are hereditary and another problem is that Rinnegan has no know genjutsu powers.

I'm sorry, and I realize this isn't supposed to be a forum-esqe thing, but I have to say something.

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Everyone seems to be forgetting some very important facts in regards to the Rin'negan.

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* First: The Rin'negan, unlike most other Doujutsu, affects the whole body. It manifests most visually in the eyes, but it's powers are not limited to the eyes themselves, mental functions, or chakra. The whole body is part of the Rin'negan. Evidence: The Six Paths.

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* Second: The Sharingan is an ability focused almost entirely upon the eyes and chakra - for the sake of this particular issue, we'll say that the Sharingan eyes focus more on the "spiritual" side of nin, gen, and taijutsu. By contrast, the Uzumaki and Senju strengths tend to deal either with the body or the physical side of chakra - in other words, they create solid things with chakra, like wood and chains, and have extended life spans and more robust bodies.

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* Third: Each of the Sage's two sons was said to have inherited a different part (or "half," if you will) of his power. The older son inherited his "eyes," his immense chakra and spiritual energy (see my second point), while the younger inherited his "body," his strong will and physical energy.

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Therefore, neither the older or younger son alone is capable of using the Rin'negan. The same could be said of their descendants. In order to awaken the Rin'negan, a descendant of either son must have spliced or combined his genes or body with a descendant of the other son. In essence, they have to combine the Sage's spiritual energy with his physical energy (which equals - go figure - chakra) - his "eyes" with his "body". We must conclude, then, that the Sharingan as we know it is a mutation of the older son's eyes, and did not, in fact, exist before the Rin'negan. Whether or not the mutation of the Sharingan into its present form is a result of the Sage being a Jinchuuriki is irrelevant, because neither Madara nor Nagato had to become a Jinchuuriki in order to awaken the Rin'negan.

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There is, in fact, evidence that the Rin'negan cannot be unlocked without the genes of both sons - the real Madara admitted that he didn't acheive his until just before his death, and that he had to absorb some of Hashirama's genes/DNA/powers first. Likewise, he also hinted that he had something to do with Nagato unlocking his Rin'negan, though what that might actually be is still a mystery that Kishimoto might never reveal.

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On the issue of the Ten Tails, you're assuming that it had to be related to the Sage in some way or manner, and that its eye was either a reflection of the Sage's eye or his method of gaining the Rin'negan in the first place. You're coming up with a number of convoluted theories to explain the Juubi's eye in relation to the Sage's eyes, when in reality the simplest and least convoluted explanation is that they aren't related at all. I cannot explain how the Juubi has its one "ultimate" eye, but you must keep in mind that the Juubi, like the Bijuu later created from it, is a monstrous construct of chakra. Even with a physical body, that body is not limited in the same manner a human body would be, ergo it's entirely possible that it can have both the Sharingan and the Rin'negan at the same time. Or, far more likely, the only reason we assume that the Sharingan is involved is the comma marks along each of the eye's rings, when it may actually be that the Sharingan is not involved at all. In fact, it's almost certain that the Sharingan wasn't involved because the Sharingan as we know it ''did not exist at that time.'' We assume that the comma markings have some sort of significance, but it may simply be that they have no significance at all beyond something symbolic that we don't actually know.

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Please, for the sake of my sanity, remember Occam's Razor. I really don't like to risk the wrath of the site's authority over some convoluted theories built on half-remembered knowledge.--[[User:James D. Fawkes|James D. Fawkes]] ([[User talk:James D. Fawkes|talk]]) 21:30, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

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I agree with the long post above mine. But there IS simple explanation like “Occam's Razor” about the ten tails having both the Sharingan and Rin'negan. We all see in the “Naruto universe” the concept of mistakes. Example: Sarutobi didn’t kill Orochimaru ; Itachi with Sasuske etc. So we can presume that the Sage is also capable of mistakes. So with his “Creation of All things” technique, it is possible that he unwillingly created the Ten Tails. Or maybe at the beginning when he was still learning, something went wrong and the monster was created, probably from some dark part of his subconscious, or his nightmares. And there is a picture of the Sage where he has a necklace with six red magatama and on the back of his robe there were 9 magatama. So we have the two sides of the Ten Tails eye. And we can assume that the subconscious mimics reality so if it was created from him it would have that two characteristics. But this is thinking WAY outside the box.--[[User:Danchojack|Danchojack]] ([[User talk:Danchojack|talk]]) 00:12, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

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== nickname ==

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Isn't "God" also Sage's nickname ?

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Kabuto said that with Madara he can touch a fragment of this God's power.

:Just because his power was called 'the power of God' or 'the power of the Gods', doesn't mean that 'God' is his nickname. It just means that people considered his power to be like that of a god, which is why he was called the 'God of Shinobi'. The Sage himself was never simply called 'God'. Now the word 'god' looks all weird to me… —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 22:10, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

:I never said it wasn't a reference to the Sage. I just said that calling the power 'the power of (that) god' doesn't mean that the Sage was nicknamed simply 'god'. It just means that he was seen as a kind of god, hence his nickname 'God of Shinobi'.

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:As for the Rinnegan thing, I only have to add that just because the Jūbi had tomoe in his eye doesn't mean he had anything related to the Sharingan. The point of the matter is that we simply do not have enough information to draw any substantial conclusions about how the dōjutsu really relate to one another and what exactly the deal was with the Sage and the Jūbi. —[[User:ShounenSuki|ShounenSuki]] <sup>([[User_talk:ShounenSuki|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/ShounenSuki|contribs]] | [[User:ShounenSuki#Translations|translations]])</sup> 22:37, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Its Rokudo (Roku = six, do = path) not Rikudo (Riku = land/shore or agony of separation). Corrected it in the main article but not sure how to fix it in the side info box. --[[Special:Contributions/65.182.237.52|65.182.237.52]] ([[User talk:65.182.237.52|talk]]) 06:57, December 27, 2011 (UTC) Abe ;)

:Because Hashirama was the first person ever to have Wood Release, much later in history. Just because the Sage originated the line Wood Release appeared into, it doesn't mean he had. Bloodlines change over time. What you're asking is the equivalent of adding Sharingan to Tsunade, because like the Uchiha, she's also a descendent of the Sage. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 16:44, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

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Maybe he had, maybe not ... sorry Omni, I just one comment.

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Kabuto commented on Madara being a fragment of Sage's power, so Sage should have it as well.

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Isn't it possible for something to appear dozen of generations later ?

No. Madara had the Rinnegan. Kabuto's statement was in regards to that, not Wood Release, which Madara didn't even use until after Kabuto made that statement. Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 19:43, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

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"Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release"

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Yeah, until Kishi states otherwise.

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Hashirama is the original source just as Sharingan came from Byakugan and Rinnegan is a mutation.

Your Byakugan point came from Kakashi who himself said it was a rumor. This has been stated by characters in the series as fact. Your Rinnegan point is moot as it also comes from Kakashi, who believed the Sage to be a myth, which we knwo to be false becasuse of the Tailed Beasts referencing him and the fact that they named him (and the existence of the Naka Shrine Tablet.)[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 20:53, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

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That was an example.

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The "fact" stays as long as not proven wrong or otherwise.

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For years Kyubi was some demon fox and as well as other Tailed Beasts evil, now they are just tinny pets.

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I think what OP is asking ... if Uchiha + Senju = So6p power/blood/Rinnegan whatever, that would mean when you take flesh from any random Senju not just Hashirama, you get the Rinnegan (this is not confirmed but likely) or just simply to "mimic" Sage's power/blood ?

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It was always said that sharingan + HASHIRAMA'S power = power of So6p

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This would mean that Madara/Tobi/Sasuke/Any Uchiha taking Tobirama's flesh instead would result in So6p power, but this does not seems to be the case.

OP is saying that Wood Release should be in the Sage's infobox because Hashirama was his blood. Things were explained, and now you're just speculating. Elveonora, more often than not the discussions you take part into turn into forum talk. Please police yourself. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 21:18, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

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(E/C)

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Pretty sure Hashirama is used because he's essentially the best his clan ever had or was said to have. I mean, he defeated Madara and Kurama alone, had the power of Wood Release, and could control several Tailed Beasts by himself. Wh would you choose anyone else? Noting in the series implies that the So6P had anything to do with Wood Release and everything has stated and shown that Hashirama is the original possessor of it.

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Edit: Only the Kyubi and Shukaku were regarded as 'evil' in the series, and that was because of the former attack Konoha and the latter having extreme blood lust.. The other Tailed Beasts didn't get referenced or brought up until much later, and even then the weren't all said to be evil.[[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 21:21, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hashirama was said to be the only possessor of Wood Release (naturally). And no, it wouldn't make ''any'' sense if he had every KKG. KKGs are a result of a certain combination of genes, and obviously the Sage didn't have every combination of genes, much less every KKG. Also, not a forum. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 20:23, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

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The Sage was never said to have given birth to humanity, he just taught them how to use chakra so no it doesn't make any sense.--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 20:29, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

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== Protection ? ==

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This page keeps being vandalised. I think it might be good to protect all the pages with a lot of text on them or the pages concerning very important people in the series. --[[User:Speysider|speysider]] ([[User talk:Speysider|talk]]) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

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== That popular mistranslation again ==

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Could anyone provide me a link where Suki-senpai translated that famous mistranslation about two paths and all? People are still asking about it and I want to check if my own translation is correct. [[User:Seelentau|Seelentau 愛]]<sup>[[User Talk:Seelentau|議]]</sup> 19:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

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:Could you be a little more clear/detailed about the "two paths" thing O.o--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 19:20, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

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::He means that thing Tobi said to Konan about two paths being one, about having Hashirama and Madara's powers. [[User:Omnibender|Omnibender]] - [[User talk:Omnibender|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Omnibender|Contributions]] 19:22, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I totally overlooked Omni's bit about Konan. I must seem knockers =_= Any way I think you'll find what you want [http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:ShounenSuki/Archive_2010_Q3#CHAPTER_510_TRANSLATIONS here]?--[[User talk:Cerez365|Cerez<sub>365</sub>™]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]] 20:01, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

It is said in the article that the [[Rinnegan]] manifested in [[Madara]] who acquired [[Hashirama]]'s DNA. This seems to indicate that [[Senju]] or Senju related DNA is needed for awaken the Rinnegan. As it is not confirmed and just used to denote time, itis better to use [[Valley of the End]].[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 15:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

I was saying that write along the lines of "The Rinnegan had manifested in Madara after the Battle at the Valley of End" and not" after acquiring Hashirama's DNA[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 17:24, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

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:That's incorrect though. Madara obtained the Rinnegan near his death after he had long since acquired Hashirama's DNA. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 17:27, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

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::Apparently it's hard to believe that the two lines that descended from the Sage can merge and recreate the dōjutsu... If there's a way to avoid saying after acquiring Senju DNA then I suppose we should.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 20:54, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

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No replies? I am going to remove the Hashirama reference within two days.[[User:Undominanthybrid|Undominanthybrid]] ([[User talk:Undominanthybrid|talk]]) 13:47, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, what? I'm going to have to undo that edit if what was done what I think was. [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 19:05, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

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:Given that we were under threat Skitts, I took out the bit about Hashirama until we have confirmation since I searched for it and outside of the [[Creation of All Things]] couldn't find anything tangible. Though I don't know what else Madara would be doing with his DNA...--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:13, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

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Hashirama's power is to control Tailed Beasts and strong yang chakra/stamina I guess. Unless Kishi says that Rinnegan is unlocked with Hashi boob then it should not be implied.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 22:24, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yang chakra is physical energy ... yang release is something different and where was it implied ? --[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 23:16, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

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:Yang Chakra is '''not''' Physical energy. Yang Release transforms chakra, giving it life-giving properties, which IS Yang Chakra. I'm not sure where you got it that the Release is not that chakra. Fire Chakra is Fire Release and so on. Physical energy makes up chakra, that's it. ^^ Anywho, I'm getting off topic. As to where it was implied, that's (somewhat) easy. When Kabuto was checking his theory with Edo Madara that he had survived his final confrontation with Hashirama and Madara and Kabuto both said that the entire point of that battle was to "gain access to Hashirama's power" and it was years in excess of him doing so when he awakened it. Of course, it wasn't directly stated, but Madara's acquisition of the Rinnegan was always surrounded by talk of his acquisition of Hashirama's DNA [[User:Skitts|Skitts]] ([[User talk:Skitts|talk]]) 00:07, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

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We have argued about the Yin/Yang chakra (spiritual and physical energies) and Yin-Yang Release before and went nowhere ... Genjutsu = Yin Release (implied by Mizukage and makes sense, was thought before by fans) Uchiha inherited strong spiritual energy/chakra from So6p and are proficient in Genjutsu with Sharingan itself being strong tool of it.

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So6p was "Yin-Yang" and Elder-Younger son/Sasuke-Naruto are Yin-Yang to each other. Yin has a bit of Yang in it just like Yang has a bit of Yin in itself, because one can't exist without other as both make up reality. Yin being the space/time/idea/mind/soul and Yang what we call "real" or interactive stuff. Everyone has both physical and spiritual energies as they make up chakra. Fire natured chakra is not always fire release, for example Naruto has wind affinity but he has to TRANSFORM the chakra into wind (that's why it's called nature transformation, it changes the chakra's properties) so in order to perform Yin Release (genjutsu) one has to use Spiritual energy/Yin chakra and transform it into effect. To topic, I still think Kabuto himself has enhanced Edo Madara with Hashirama's power and that he didn't have it before. He would not be surprised about Hashirama's face on his chest and would not question Kabuto as of what he did to his body, not the mention Madara said "I want to try something out" ... People say: "He must have had the Wood Release before as he is skilled with it" that no argument as Kakashi was able to put Obito's Sharingan in use right after the transplantation and Madara fought Hashirama for YEARS so he has copied and memorized the techniques and has Rinnegan that allows him to easily learn chakra natures, with his powers, experience/skill and knowledge it shouldn't be a problem.--[[User:Elveonora|Elveonora]] ([[User talk:Elveonora|talk]]) 00:34, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

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:You're misunderstanding several concepts in the series:

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*Genjutsu being Yin Release has nothing to do with Hashirama having Yang Release or whatever. That doesn't even make sense outside of Tailed Beasts. Yin-Yang may very well be ''related'' to Physical/Spiritual energy, but they definitely aren't the same.

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*And Yin having a bit of Yang in it??? What? And we're not even sure if all Genjutsu are Yin Release as of yet.

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*An Affinity towards a certain nature is just that, an affinity. The chakra itself has no properties of that Nature. Chakra itself has no inherent Nature. It has to be transformed to obtain those properties. Naruto's chakra is NOT Wind Chakra, it's juust chakra. There is no such thing as "having" Yang Release in the way you're talking about aside from the Tailed Beasts, which were created by Yin-Yang Release anyway.

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*Never once was Madara surprised about his Hashi Boob. Not once. I just went back through the chapter. This is what happened: Kabuto mentions his progressing Madara passed his prime/altering his body, which caused Madara to look at his chest and say "Well, you've certainly prepared well." That's it.

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*Physical and Spiritual Energies make up ALL chakra. Please read the article on Chakra. It explains everything which I'm trying to get across to you.

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* There's a great difference between transplanting something and integrating someone's DNA into your own. Just look what happened to 59 of the 60 babies Orochimaru implanted Hashirama's DNA in to. Madara ''specifically'' noted (as did Kabuto) that the entire reason for their final fight was for Madara to gain Hashirama power.

Excuse me, was it ever stated in the manga/databook that the SO6P is a ninja?--{{unsigned|182.2.63.128}}

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:What do you mean? He created ninjutsu→ ninja techniques. That alone connotes that the man was a shinobi even if not in the sense that it's used for now.--[[User:Cerez365|Cerez<small>365</small><sup>™</sup>]][[File:Hyūga Symbol.svg|20px]][[User talk:Cerez365|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:37, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

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==Abilities==

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How could the Sage seal the Jubi on the moon since he is its jinchuruki, he need to have a stronger force of life (not to sepculate, but a equal force of Uzumaki clan) or is because of his imense power, my question have 2 bases:

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* After divide the power of Jubi in nine, he selaed himself along the biju while transformed, into the moon (what make him and Jubi have a pefect synchronism with each other).

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* He release Jubi from his body (which needs a stronger force of life like I already mentioned), divided its power in nine and sealed its body on moon (the most real evidence).

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So, what of those two options is the correct. [[User:MaskedManMadara|MaskedManMadara]] ([[User talk:MaskedManMadara|talk]]) 16:03, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

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Most probably, the 2nd one.— {{User:UltimateSupreme/SigCode|16:21 UTC|Saturday|3 November 2012}}

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:Or, considering we now know how broken Senju is, it is not beyond the realm of reason the Sage was even more broken, and just did things the way he wanted, what with him creating ninjutsu and all that.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'''TheUltimate3''']] [[File:Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg|20px]][[User Talk:TheUltimate3| <sup>(talk)</sup>]] 18:00, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

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I don't understand why databook listed him as Kekkei Mōra user, is it because he was a Jinchūriki of Ten-Tails? I thought only Rinne Sharingan fits into this category but it seems that Kaguya's Byakugan can also be said to be a Kekkei Mōra, if it is true then Hagoromo's Rinnegan should be classified as Kekkei Mōra, thoughts?--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 20:43, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

Nope, we can't just assume that. Madara and Hagoromo had the same Rinnegan. Nagato and Obito had Madara's Rinnegan, yet they aren't KKM users, are they? So it's unlikely to be because of the Rinnegan.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 21:21, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was because of his TSB... but oh well... speculation for now...

The problem is that we don't have a clear [or complete] definition of the term "kekkei mora" & no one can make one...we just know it's a brand of jutsu unique to kaguya & whoever has her chakra...we don't what it actually is or does...& unfortunately, up until now the manga hasn't given anything concrete about it...hope the mini series does that...btw, when is it coming exactly...also is there gonna be an otsutsuki gaiden before it...U know...like the kakashi one...a lotta things can be explained there...& sry for going off topic :D --DARK ZERO--talk 22:06, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering that may be KKM actually comes from Ten-Tails and because he was Jinchuriki his Rinnegan might have become superior, we don't know the extent of Hagoromo's Rinnegan so we can't compare Madara and Hagoromo's Rinnegan only because they look same in appearance, so just saying that it could be KKM and the reason behind it is that he was Jinchuriki and he could control Ten-Tails, we also know the third databook listed Rinnegan as Kekkei Genkai but only the fourth DB listed Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora making it as an exception, does anybody know what the databook is saying about this? may be we can ignore this as it wasn't explained in manga.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 13:51, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Considering other mistakes that made it into the book, for example, Danzo not being marked as having a summon, I believe this is clearly just a mistake. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

What about Kaguya's Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku? Both are listed as Kekkei Mora, she doesn't have a Kekkei Genkai symbol either.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 16:45, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So when exactly are we gonna just right off that damned book if it's so littered with mistakes?--TheUltimate3(talk) 16:46, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Why do you automatically assume this to be a mistake?--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 16:47, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Kaguya's All Killing Ash Bones is superior and stronger version of Shikotsumyaku and it is already listed as Kekkei Mora so no need to list Shikotsumyaku--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:50, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It's not in her infobox as kekkei mora nor do we have an article for it. Why don't we just add Shikotsumyaku as kekkei mora to her infobox and change her byakugan to kekkei mora as well and call it a day? Same with Hagoromo and his Rinnegan.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 16:54, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Because that would be speculation. • Seelentau 愛議 17:00, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

The very opposite of that actually, it would be writing down information exactly as provided. If the book says Kaguya has Kekkei Mora and no Kekkei Genkai, then us listing her Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai and her Shikotsumyaku as nothing is us doing it wrong--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 17:02, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It was not Shikotsumyaku, she used All Killing Ash Bones so we can't really add this Kekkei Genkai--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:04, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

All killing ash bones is name of a technique not name of the bloodline ability behind it. There's no reason to assume hers isn't called Shikotsumyaku, considering her Byakugan is called just that--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 17:08, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Shikotsumyaku is the name of the kekkei genkai, just like Sharingan. Also, she does not possess the Shikotsumyaku and her Byakugan wasn't called a Kekkei Mora, either. • Seelentau 愛議 17:10, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Considering Jin no Sho lists her as Kekkei Mora user but not Kekkei Genkai, it was indeed. Not to mention her vacuum palm tech is also Kekkei Mora, likely for the same reason Lightning Transmission is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 17:16, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

An exclusion that is known to be a mistake is one thing, but assuming something is included by error is speculation. I thought you once said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, now you are backtracking. Look at her techniques:

God: Nativity of a World of Trees = Kekkei Mora, most likely because her Mokuton is Kekkei Mora (and don't start again that bullshit about Ten-Tails having Mokuton but not Kaguya please)

All-Killing Ash Bones = Kekkei Mora, because her version of Shikotsumyaku is

Amenominaka = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one

Infinite Tsukuyomi = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one

Rabbit Hair Needle = Kekkei Mora, presumably because it's used in conjunction with her Byakugan, pretty much stating it to be one

Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack = Kekkei more, hence used with her Byakugan which is one as is obvious to me, just like Hyuga Vacuum Palm attacks are Kekkei Genkai because they are used with their Byakugan which is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 17:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So everything is right and is it correct to list her Byakugan as Kekkei Mora because her whole body is Kekkei Mora then everything is, including her eyes.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 18:05, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. And this is exactly why I asked Seelentau if he considers himself a hypocrite. On one hand, he makes a forum thread with: "facts guys, we write what's stated" then he goes off to oppose what's stated because he doesn't like it :-/--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 19:20, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Err, I maybe said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, but that was speculation, not a fact. I can't even remember when I said that, but sorry if that wasn't obvious. • Seelentau 愛議 13:29, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well you started this [1] and several editors had their opinion known to be that we should write what's stated and that it's not our job to correct Kishi. Call me crazy, but one of those people was Seelentau.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 16:23, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

And what does that have to do with this? • Seelentau 愛議 16:53, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly that, listing things as stated? Kaguya and Hagoromo have kekkei mora label and no kekkei genkai one, so it should be reflected as such.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 16:55, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Databook made A LOT of mistakes, let's not contradict with the manga. Byakugan and Rinnegan were said to be Kekkei Genkai, so they should stay as that.--Omojuze (talk) 17:03, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

"Not our job to correct mistakes" you guys said. Also there's a difference between correcting known/obvious mistakes, like omitted users, natures etc. and ASSUMING that something was included by mistake. I wholeheartedly doubt that this is a mistake, since as I said above, Kaguya's palm and hair techniques are listed both as Kekkei Mora and both use Byakugan, not sure what more evidence do you need.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 17:16, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well I believe Seelentau was not the one who stated that her whole body is Kekkei Mora according to this it was just our assumption, but as our understanding goes there should be a reason to list Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora and also Kaguya's techniques are already listed as Kekkei Mora except the Byakugan but we shouldn't be really adding this as it could be wrong, or it may be added as a trivia point, the manga stated her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball as Kekkei Mora, only the databook lists all of her technique, everything is okay now only Byakugan is the problem.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:19, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Elveonora - Wut? Are you suggesting that a genetic trait can be considered kekkei genkai for one person and kekkei mora for the other, even though the usage, appearance and everything about it known to us is the same? Not only that, Rabbit Hair Needle and Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack only use the Byakugan to ensure that the techniques hit the viral points or something. Byakugan is not needed to perform those techniques, and saying that it is would be speculation. Again, how come a thing that looks the same and has the exact same function be one for one person, and different for the other?--Omojuze (talk) 17:26, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting anything. The databook lists all her techniques as Kekkei Mora, even those listed with Byakugan and she has no Kekkei Genkai user classification, what is here to be argued about exactly?--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 17:52, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

None of her techniques are listed with Byakugan (Rabbit Hair Needle is listed, but it shouldn't be because it doesn't require the Byakugan).--Omojuze (talk) 18:00, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

None of the Hyuga Gentle Fist techniques "require" the Byakugan, yet they are listed as Kekkei Genkai because they are used in conjunction with it. Same for Lightning Transmission it doesn't require the Sharingan in order to be cast, it requires it in order to be used effectively. Also just to answer the above, Kaguya's ETSB is Kekkei Mora while the TSB isn't, yet they have the same make-up, so there goes an example.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 18:09, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Both sides have valid points in this discussion. However, we do need to ensure we're displaying proper information, so if something is missing which should be present, it should be added. --Sajuuk[Mod]talk | contribs | Channel 18:38, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well, we presently have listed Kaguya's Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai even though Jin no Sho omits her as a Kekkei Genkai user, while lists her as Kekkei Mora user. Her techniques which are used with Byakugan are also listed as Kekkei Mora. Long story short, her Byakugan should be listed as Kekkei Mora even though we may not like it/it doesn't make sense to us. Factual information > subjective feelings.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 18:54, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

so.... what? We just create an article called "Kaguya's Byakugan" and list it as a KKM? Ha. I kid, I kid. Though honestly, Hagoromo listed as a KKM user and not a KKG user complicates things as well... -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:02, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

No, we just put Byakugan into "kekkei mora" part of the infobox in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Hagoromo's and mention in Byakugan and Rinnegan articles that theirs are somehow Kekkei Mora, that's all.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 19:04, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Affirming that Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a KKM? Hell, I did the same with his TSB, but that was rejected by Seelentau as well. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:07, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Neither is the Rinnegan nor Byakugan. But their users are. Also, the databook stated that Kaguya doesn't have Shikotsumyaku, but that Shikotsumyaku is a derived technique of her ability to manipulate her bone structure (got that from FF-Suzaku, in case you were wondering). -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

But we should call it something. It's genetic yet it isn't in her kekkei part of infobox. That's why I proposed listing her as Kekkei Mora Shikotsumyaku user, since that's better than "Kaguya's bone powers" or something.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 20:12, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there, but maybe Kekkei Mora is just an inclusive term. It does use inclusive wording. Like, you don't have to say "he's got kekkei mora and kekkei genkai" because just saying "he's got kekkei mora" already tells the whole story. Or maybe, as suggested elsewhere, his traits are kekkei mora because they're a more "pure" version of whatever was passed down to later generations. Frankly, I think it would actually probably be easier to just do what the databooks do and make the infoboxes more ambigious. Add "Kekkei Genkai," "Kekkei Tota," "Kekkei Mora," and "Summoner" to the classification section, like Sage and Jinchuriki (which is what the databook does). Then figure out a different way to list their unique genetic mutations. FF-Suzaku (talk) 15:00, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

In the end it would achieve the same thing as I propose and they oppose, Kaguya and Hagoromo would be listed only as Kekkei Mora users.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 15:48, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

Done, Elveonora. (At least, his Rinnegan is a KKM now, just as DB4 listed him as a KKM user.)★ WS7125[Mod] 23:13, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

It was said Indra inherited his father's eyes, but he didn't inherit the Rinnegan, so Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan too?--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 06:28, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be taken literal, by eyes it meant his dojutsu, the Sharingan, which is a devolved form of Rinnegan. Hagoromo has, in every case, always been depicted with nothing more than Rinnegan, even stated to be born with it I believe. Kaguya's Rinne Sharingan devolved into her son's Rinnegan, which devolved into his son's Sharingan. His Rinnegan is also a Kekkei Mora, not Kekkei Genkai, so I'm sure he always had it. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 06:32, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

Who has ever said Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan? Rinne Sharingan devolved into Rinnegan as you say, hence it doesn't make sense. It's more like Rinne Sharingan split into Rinnegan and Sharingan, like sibling doujutsu instead of parent-child doujutsu.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 11:12, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

Is "eyes" what the manga/databook said or is it just us using "eyes" instead of eyes. So are you saing super powered Sharingan turned into Rinnegan to turn into depowered Sharingan? Makes more sense that Rinne Sharingan split into both. But that again, even if I'm right, that doesn't mean Hagoromo had Sharingan because it might have been recessive genes for him, hmph.--Elve[Mod]Talk Page|Contribs 12:38, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

"Eyes" is what the manga said. It also said "body" for Asura. Do you really think Asura runs around in Hagoromo's own body? • Seelentau 愛議 13:00, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

The Rinne Sharingan is the origin of both of Rinnegan and Sharingan, and is superior to them both. Kaguya had Rinne Sharingan, her son had Rinnegan, and her grandson had Sharingan. Basically, the "eyes" got weaker with each generation until Indra had a whole clan of Sharingan using descendants. Hagoromo has the genes for it, or else he couldn't pass it on, but I highly doubt he had it himself. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 15:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

I think both are important, but the difference in "correct depiction" is nothing compared to the difference in quality in regards to those two pics. The current picture is far better in my opinion.--Minatalk | contribs 01:08, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Im fine with either. Just noticed in the current image, Hagoromo is missing a neck and his head is seamlessly floating XD --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:17, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

just had this question...if he didn't have it before sealing his mother as shown in chapter 670 page 11 & created it after the sealing, then why does he still have it on his back even though he doesn't have the jubi in him anymore... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:04, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

The magatama/Rinnegan thing isn't that technique's seal. It's a symbol of the Six Paths Senjutsu. • Seelentau 愛議 21:14, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

so then why didn't he have it before sealing his mother? --DARK ZERO--talk 21:17, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

Because he didn't have the Six Paths Senjutsu before. • Seelentau 愛議 21:19, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

whether it's the coffin seal or SPS the question remains the same...why does he still have it after loosing the jubi...& 1 more thing I noticed is that when he was talking about splitting the jubi's chakra the panel was zoomed on this mark...as the 9 tomoe represents the 9 TBs...but if this is the case then he should have had this mark after the splitting...not after the jubi's sealing...& also 1more thing...if I remember correctly zetsu said that not even hagoromo knew that the jubi was shinju+kaguya, but when hagoromo was talking to naruto after the battle of kaguya Vs team 7, he sounded like he knew it way before all of this...he even said how did naruto feel fighting his mother & shit like that...too much inconsistencies :|... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:28, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

Don't you think it's plausible that Hogoromo was simply wearing real clothing...? Markings don't appear and disappear from real clothing unless the owner is going in and out of chakra modes. Since I don't see the characteristic chakra "flame" coming off Hagoromo's form I don't think he's in one, therein meaning that those markings are a part of his clothing. --Atrix471 (talk) 21:33, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

but he still has the TSBs & the flight ability :|....he should've lost all of these when he farted the jubi out of him...whether it's the coffin seal or the SPS, he should have lost it...why does he still have it...unless he had it/them from the beginning...but we don't have any proof for that matter except that he HAD the TSB before sealing his mother...donno how many though...not to mention the six paths yang mark which I god knows where the hell he got that from or had that two by himself... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:40, August 1, 2015 (UTC)