We get wrestlers in judo all the time. I dont get whooped by them and I'm still a noobie to judo. I just use the counters I was taught to most takedowns. I also use a single leg all the time when they stick that butt out to far (although sometimes when they do that I can knee wheel em). I havn't been trained takedown defenses in bjj. But I also dont have much trouble defending there (although most of the guys I fight just want me in their guard anyways). I dont think there is anything wrong with judo's standup game. What I think judo really needs is more time on the mat to work. I dont feel I have enough time to worry about position in judo. I feel that if I dont go for the submission as soon as we hit the mat that they are going to stand us up. And that is why I train bjj with judo. To make sure both ranges are covered.

Yeah Rochester has great Judo. I know a bunch of guys in Rochester and I could probably set you up with a fight that would change your opinion completely. Believe it or not there are plenty of Judo black belts out there that can and do beat BJJ guys. Don't form your opinions from a few on line video clips. It's pretty easy to cut out all the scenes where the BJJ guy gets his ass handed to him. :jerkit2yf

empire judo, i believe, is where wally the weapon trains... hes an MMAist who trains standup at casals in niagara falls. i'd love to train there if i had the time to get out there-its about an hour and a half away.

If every judoka in the world kicked my ass one by one, it wouldnt change the fact that:

If your sport allows something that is simple to defend against yet very effective, you should learn how to defend against it/do it yourself.

im not attacking judo, im saying that a judoka should learn how to defend against all TDs that are legal in judo competition.

im not saying that to be the best judo player you should just wrestle. of course not. my point is that, if it can happen at the tournaments in the clips, it can probably happen elsewhere. and the other video i was talking about wasnt BJ Penn, just some guy, as far as i know.

We get wrestlers in judo all the time. I dont get whooped by them and I'm still a noobie to judo. I just use the counters I was taught to most takedowns. I also use a single leg all the time when they stick that butt out to far (although sometimes when they do that I can knee wheel em). I havn't been trained takedown defenses in bjj. But I also dont have much trouble defending there (although most of the guys I fight just want me in their guard anyways). I dont think there is anything wrong with judo's standup game. What I think judo really needs is more time on the mat to work. I dont feel I have enough time to worry about position in judo. I feel that if I dont go for the submission as soon as we hit the mat that they are going to stand us up. And that is why I train bjj with judo. To make sure both ranges are covered.

Your problem is that you are too reasonable for an internet forum. No drama, no nothing.
:)

I train in Judo and BJJ. BJJ helps improve my newaza, but from a tournament stand point, nothing intimidates your future opponents more than executing a throw for an ippon.

Of the Judo tournaments I've been do, most of what I see is people trying to take the fight to the ground, using single and double leg takedowns. The ground fight is great, but you expend more enegy down there.

Personally, I would rather execute a single throw for an ippon than take it to the ground. Submissions are great, but nothing says "U been Pwned" like slamming your opponent on his back.

what?? wrestlers dont want to land hard? what the hell does that mean?

It means that, over the years, I've invited wrestlers to come try judo, and a good number of them have passed on that invitation, because "you guys just want to throw us around". No more, no less.

Originally Posted by ryanand

i have no objections to slamming someone on their back. and what wrestler cant "defend a slam"? throws are used in wrestling, and people are constantly slammed...

And frequently penalized for the slam. Should I tell you of matches were a wrestler was slammed, couldn't continue, and still won, because of the illegal technique?

Originally Posted by ryanand

this doesnt really make sense to me... ever seen a freestyle or greco match?? not that any of these points really have anything to do with the topic

I've seen plenty freestyle and greco. And of course this doesn't make sense to you, because your original point, about take downs, was asinine; I was only playing off that.

that "one technique geek" comment did nothing for your case, since you're saying that:
since judo doesnt allow leg TDs (which it does) then i will be mad because i cant use them (even though i AM allowed).

No, you're still making the same mistake. See below.

Originally Posted by ryanand

you see, if wrestling allowed armlocks and chokes, then wrestlers should learn to defend them, because it could win or lose a match for them.

by the same logic, if judo allows leg TDs, they should learn to sprawl.

There's a difference between allowing a technique, penalizing a technique and rewarding a technique.

Most wrestling takedowns are only infrequently scoring techniques in judo (and low-scoring techniques at best), while there are submissions that can be set up by allowing yourself to be taken down.

Judo matches are rarely decided by takedowns - they are allowed, but not rewarded, so it's really a moot point.

Originally Posted by ryanand

In both the videos (which i repeatedly said were my sources of information), not one judo person sprawled when shot on.

There you go, focusing on just one technique. The sprawl isn't the only defense to a shot.

Originally Posted by ryanand

you said yourself that judo schools will teach sprawls and such "If a lot of wrestlers start entering judo tournaments and winning with takedowns". Well now you've seen examples, so is it time yet?

I haven't seen examples of wrestlers entering and winning judo tournaments with takedowns - and I've been to a lot more judo tournaments than your two videos. I've even taken wrestlers to judo tournaments, and they haven't won on takedowns.

Originally Posted by ryanand

It's not like these guys were doing some bizzare takedowns that no one knows how to defend. these were single and double leg takedowns. Judo competitors at the black belt level (in these cases) couldn't defend against them, but the TDs were:

1) legal
2) effective
3) incredibly simple to perform/defend against

and to whoever asked me how i judge something as "silly", that is how. a legal, effective, simple move is brought into a tournament and none of the black belts know what to do. its ridiculous.

Before you judge something, you need to understand it. In this case you fail to recognize that a simple takedown is not an effective technique in judo - it results in a score only infrequently, rarely ends a match.

A takedown, by itself in a judo match, is a wasted effort - you still need to work to secure a pin or submission; and if you can't do so quickly, you're back on your feet, no better for the effort.

On the other hand, when you can end a match instantly with a good throw, shooting a takedown is silly.

I'll repeat - a takedown is not an *effective* technique - no score, no effect.

On the other hand, I really don't recommend a sprawl in judo competition - a good thrower can use it against you (drop seoi, maybe, or yoko-tomoe-nage, some tsuri-komi-goshi or kata guruma variations as well).

Originally Posted by ryanand

like i've said before, if i had the option of taking judo, i would. no art is perfect, but i think that this is somewhat of a big flaw in either the rules of competition or the training. its not all cases, but the ones i showed you are a sample of whats out there. and to say i cant critique something because i dont train in it is just stupid-- do i have to dance around to the beat of a brazilian drum to know that capoeira wont help me win many fights? its not like im assuming simple takedowns work in judo, i spoke of widely available video evidence. im done typing.

If you want to make a positive statement like "I think this is somewhat of a big flaw in either the rules of competition or the training", then, yes, you should be training in the art. You first have to demonstrate there is indeed a big flaw - and you obviously don't have enough information at hand to do that, for reasons outline above. You don't have enough experience with judo rules to have realized that your first link is woefully misleading; nor apparently have you trained judo- so how can you distinquish the two cases?

You didn't make a critique of just the two videos, you made a blanket critique of the entire art. You took just a little smidgeon and tried to start something.

You should try to understand the difference between "widely available" and "comprehensive".

By the way, how are you so sure that capoeira won't help you win fights? You've, what, seen some videos?

I dont feel I have enough time to worry about position in judo. I feel that if I dont go for the submission as soon as we hit the mat that they are going to stand us up. And that is why I train bjj with judo. To make sure both ranges are covered.

Don't worry about going for the submission - you should first get your dominant position, that is, osaekomi. Then you've got 25 seconds to work for a submission.

If you want more time, just keep an eye on the scorers table, let him break the hold after yuko and continue.

If a guy just pulls you into guard, make him *earn* the right to keep you on the ground. If he's actively seeking subs, the ref's will let him continue. If he's just stalling in the guard, waiting for you to do something stupid, then you just as well stall yourself.

There is a positional game in judo, but it's different than the BJJ positional game - you want more ne-waza time, you just need to work within the rules.

If your sport allows something that is simple to defend against yet very effective, you should learn how to defend against it/do it yourself.

Wrestling takedowns can be very effective in judo matches. video evidence of this can be found on this site and others, as i have mentioned. Even if they dont result in an ippon, it leads to submission options on the ground, where the person executing the TD is usually in a better position than his opponent.

The fact that it EVER works should be reason enough to train in defending against it. Agreed?

In most US clubs, does jumping guard and getting dumped on your back for it qualify as Ippon?

In tournaments, usually the answer is yes though it can depend on the quality of refereeing. During club randori - who cares - though you'll get the reputation as someone with lousy stand up who doesn't understand judo.

There's a difference between allowing a technique, penalizing a technique and rewarding a technique.

Most wrestling takedowns are only infrequently scoring techniques in judo (and low-scoring techniques at best), while there are submissions that can be set up by allowing yourself to be taken down.

Judo matches are rarely decided by takedowns - they are allowed, but not rewarded, so it's really a moot point.

I’ll say it again: a takedown puts you in a better position for submissions etc.

I haven't seen examples of wrestlers entering and winning judo tournaments with takedowns - and I've been to a lot more judo tournaments than your two videos. I've even taken wrestlers to judo tournaments, and they haven't won on takedowns.

Well, the videos I spoke of show wrestling takedowns being utilized to put the person shooting into position for match winning submissions. They don’t represent all judo, but these situations exist. And besides, how did you convince the wrestlers to go with you when they were deathly afraid of being “thrown around”??

Before you judge something, you need to understand it. In this case you fail to recognize that a simple takedown is not an effective technique in judo - it results in a score only infrequently, rarely ends a match.

A takedown, by itself in a judo match, is a wasted effort - you still need to work to secure a pin or submission; and if you can't do so quickly, you're back on your feet, no better for the effort.

On the other hand, when you can end a match instantly with a good throw, shooting a takedown is silly.

Well, now you've proven my point on your own, but ill say it again. a takedown puts you in a better position for submissions, just like you said. Okay, so a takedown all alone is ineffective. all right, lets not do it, and lets not learn how to submit our opponent after he's taken down.

Thats like saying dont bother setting up your opponent with jabs in a boxing match, because it only takes one punch to knock him out. Just swing off on him.

By the way, how are you so sure that capoeira won't help you win fights? You've, what, seen some videos?

saying "you got served" after a dance off is not the same as winning a fight.