~ Not so daily, but definitely Dahlia.

On Querying and Subbing Simultaneously

*This post also appears as a guest post today on Brenda Drake’s blog. We like to cover our bases pre-Pitch Madness!

Publishing has evolved into a pretty fascinating thing over the past decade—new publishers opening, old publishers folding or merging, the rise of self-publishing… the options seem pretty endless. And the best thing about having so many options is that truly, what’s the best option for one book might not be the best for another, and encompassing different methods in order to optimize your sales is now a very real—and, in my opinion, very freaking awesome—way to build a writing career.

But, notice I said “what’s the best option for one book might not be the best for the other.” As in, each book might have its own best path. What this means is, your contemporary NA might do best self-pubbed, while having an agent sub to big houses might be the best move for your YA psychological thriller, and subbing to a small press might be optimal for your YA fantasy.

What this doesn’t mean is that you should take that contemporary NA, self-pub it, and then query your self-pubbed book to agents for representation. And what this really, really doesn’t mean is that you should query that YA to agents while subbing it to small presses.

Unfortunately, there’s been a really huge rise of simultaneously querying agents and submitting to small publishers, and while I understand the reasons and intentions behind it (and we’ll get to the most understandable ones later), what’s getting lost is that it’s genuinely hurting many authors, agents, and editors.

What’s the big deal? you might think. Because of course you want to get published. Of course you want to see your book become a book. You want to give your book every shot you can. But as with all things, there’s a right way and a wrong way, and after speaking to both agents and editors on the subject, it’s become clear that the wrong way needs to stop.

Because here’s the big deal. It’s an agent’s job to submit your manuscript. It’s an agent’s job to send your manuscript to everywhere (s)he deems a worthy fit, and try to get you the best deal (s)he can. Agents want to do their job, for you and for themselves; 15% of a six-figure deal is a whole lot more than 15% of a three-figure one. The crux of the author-agent partnership is a certain amount of faith that your agent knows what’s best for your work. So what kind of message does it send when you take that element out of the relationship? When you effectively say, “I’ve done the work of finding the best place for my manuscript”?

Now, I’ve made no secret of my feelings on small publishers, but in case it’s not clear by the fact that I’m publishing with one, let me make it clear—I love them. I love the amount of input I get, I love being so in the loop, I love how easy it is to communicate with them, and I love the personal attention. I have no regrets about going with a small publisher, and had no hesitation about doing so. That said, was going with a small publisher my agent’s first choice? Of course not—from a business perspective, as wonderful as they are, it will never be the highest-earning option. It’s an agent’s job to think big, to assume big, to aim for big, and to do so widely. That isn’t to say they shouldn’t sub to small presses too (though some do not, and if it’s something you think you want, that’s definitely something to discuss on The Call), but think about how you’d feel if an agent offered on your manuscript and strictly subbed small. What would you think that said about your agent’s confidence in your manuscript?

So why does this matter? Why should you care what I think? Because this isn’t strictly coming from me; it’s coming from agents, to me and Brenda—agents who no longer want to participate in contests, because they’re tired of having their submission options pulled out from under them. They’re tired of small publishers offering on submissions within a week of requesting and having five authors nudge them all at the same time, creating an impossible situation. And why should you care that they’re tired? Because it makes them say “no” when they might otherwise not have. Because sometimes, it’s just bad timing, and the crunch of only having a week, and the fact that an offer is already on the table, and the fact that they don’t feel it’s their place to tell you to pass on it on the chance they might be interested. And if an agent was what you really wanted in the long term—an agent who was going to widely sub your book—you just lost it for an offer you didn’t really want in the first place.

To quote one agent, “We want to help break authors out—to try to help them get to places they can’t get to by themselves. We want to put them in front of NY. Some books are good for digital and fit there. But the ones that would work well in NY are heartbreaking to pass on.”

And that’s exactly it—that’s what agents are for. So why take that away from them and from yourself?

You know who else it sucks for when you do this? The editors at those small presses. The ones who get really excited about your manuscripts, who get invested, only to get put on hold so you can find an agent. Yeah, they’re not any happier about this. Every editor I spoke to was absolutely on board with their authors using agents to negotiate contracts, just so there’s no confusion about that, but not with their offers being leveraged to secure agents who are then stuck in the position of negotiating a deal that’s already been accepted. As per one small pub editor, “An agent’s job is to get you the best possible deal, and when they are presented with one that is already accepted, their only option is to push back hard, and that will most likely put the editor in an awkward place.

Keep in mind that when a small press makes an offer they are already on your side, and they have likely spent some significant portion of time pitching your MS and being your advocate on the inside. If you are in the midst of talking with agents and have multiple queries out [and] need to use the offer to ask others for a final decision that is one thing. When you receive an offer is not the time to start looking for an agent. And vice versa, if you have an agent don’t sub on your own to publishers with an open call. Let them do that for you.”

In addition to hurting your relationship with your potential editor, doing this might actually be hurting the book itself. Books are scheduled for particular seasons, and there’s a specific amount of editorial time that’s been allotted to your book before it goes to press. The time you spend looking for an agent after getting an offer cuts into that editorial time, or time you could be spending on revisions. And no, you cannot demand an editorial letter before you sign a contract; if you don’t ultimately end up signing with that press after all, such as if you do land an agent and (s)he wants to sub more widely, that’s a ton of time and work spent on you that should’ve been spent on acquisitions and editing existing signed clients.

Now, that said, what happens if you do get an offer from a small press and want to find an agent?

“In pretty much every situation, honesty is always the best policy,” says another editor. “As a publisher, we want our clients to have every comfort in signing with us and usually recommend that if they don’t have an agent, they have a lawyer look at the contract. Depending on the publishing house, a pub offer is usually good anywhere from 30 days to a year, so it is absolutely appropriate to let the house know you’d like to use that time to find an agent to handle negotiations. Again, the biggest thing is just to keep communication open and be honest about your goals and plans.”

And finally, one more biggie from an editor:

“‘DON’T query small presses unless you are INTERESTED in publishing with one.’ It sounds so simple, but it happens all the time.”

Let me explain something about both agents and editors that seems to get lost in the shuffle a lot. It doesn’t matter how much power you’re tired of them having, and it doesn’t matter how curious you are about the strength of your work: Agents and editors are not test subjects. When you use one as “offer bait,” you ruin things for everyone. It means you’ve wasted time they could’ve spent reading subs from people who genuinely want this, or editing client manuscripts they’ve already signed. Seriously, next time you think of using an agent or editor or even a contest as a test subject, think of that writer friend of yours who’d kill for the offer you just used as a “test.” Think of the fact that your actions might be talking agents out of doing contests. Think of the fact that your actions might be the ones to make a publisher decide to stop taking unagented submissions. And stop.

I’m sure not everyone will agree with what I’m saying here, and that’s fine; I’ve had enough frustrating conversations with writers to know that plenty of people out there will do whatever they wanna do. But I’ve also spoken to many I know would never knowingly hurt other writers, and to those, I hope this will help you think twice about the path you’re forging for this manuscript.

To be clear, I genuinely understand the different innocent scenarios in which this happens.

I understand that sometimes you get an offer, genuinely want it, but are scared of negotiating the contract yourself. To that I say, be honest in your query that you are looking for an agent to negotiate this contract. This isn’t a situation where you’re leveraging or nudging to lure an offer. An agent can agree to handle it or not, and you can discuss on the call whether this is a one-time thing or the beginning of a partnership. Some agents are perfectly happy to do this. Alternatively, you can use a lawyer for the contract and just query with the next one; they’re not subbing this ms anyway, so wouldn’t you rather ensure they’re the perfect fit for the next one?

I understand that sometimes, contests have judges that are both agents and editors. To that I say, if you’re in one of these contests, pick one path and stick with it. If you want an agent, and you get requests from both, send to agents only. If an agent offers, you can always state that you had interest from that pub and let the agent choose whether to sub there.If you want a small pub offer, send to editors only, and then see previous paragraph if you receive one and want an agent to negotiate it.

I understand that it’s a really, really freaking tough business. But it’s tough all around, and the best we can do is try to work together so everyone gets a fair shot and awesome manuscripts become books. Seems like a pretty solid goal to me, no?

Interesting. I don’t know ANYONE who submitted their MS as merely a test to waste someone’s time, intending to turn down offers. When I was in the subbing process as a brand new author, I was genuinely interested in EVERY agent & small pub I simultaneously submitted to, and would’ve been overjoyed at any offer. Out of 165 submissions, most of them to agents, I got 164 no’s. I am so incredibly happy that I simultaneously submitted to small pubs along with all these agents, and got that one YES that made my life & career!

Reblogged this on Conservative Daydreams and commented:
The title of this post, by Dahlia Adler, is On Querying and Subbing Simultaneously. While the article gives great advice regarding querying and subbing at the same time, it also gives some great insight into smaller publishers, why they can make great partners, and what mistakes not to make with smaller publishers. It is a worthwhile read.

Hi, Dahlia. Thanks for such an informative post. I’m interested in your thoughts about submitting novellas while shopping for an agent for a full-length MS. Do the same rules apply? My sense is that agents aren’t interested in submitting novellas on your behalf, so shorter works should be treated differently.

I think there’s a difference in general between things you want an agent to handle and things you don’t. If you don’t want an agent for your novella submission (and you are correct that agents will rarely sign an author for a novella), then there isn’t any conflict; you’re not querying and subbing the same project, and your novella was never on offer for agents. I’d say to go right head and sub your novella to publishers, saving your full-length work for querying agents.

Really great post. I’m curious tho… what about inquiring to multiple agents at the same time, as well as inquiring to agents and larger presses at the same time? I’m less interested in the really small presses b/c they don’t have disto agreements… but I am interested in larger presses, and would LOVE to have an agent, but am worried the agents are uninterested in my work (they all seem to be looking for the same things.)

Multiple agents is fine, as long as they’re not at the same agency. As for larger presses, I assume you mean major publishing houses? With extremely rare exceptions at certain imprints, they don’t take unagented submissions, so the question of simultaneity doesn’t arise. In my experience, agents are certainly not all looking for the same things – there are plenty I would never query because they don’t care for my genre, and plenty I make sure to query because they love it – but there are certainly genres that are harder sells with agents right now specifically because they’re harder sells with larger publishing houses; there’s no unlinking the two.

This is really timely, considering #pitmad is coming up (um assuming that’s why you’re writing now). My plan has always been to try small presses if my query list doesn’t work, but I had no idea simultaneous subs were so common–I’d never thought of that as an option, for the reasons you list here.

Food for thought – thanks! I had a successful twitter pitch with a small press the other day and they want to see my MS. I’m hoping for happy PitchWars news but have no idea if that’s going to happen.

So if we sub to a small press and our query says that we’re seeking an agent for representation, does that turn the small press off? Because now that the small press has asked, I want to send it. I’d hate to have them interested and just ignore them or say nevermind.

It’s definitely confusing the way contests integrate agents and small presses (though I do appreciate them).

From the editorial standpoint, as someone whose job is about 90% slush pile management for a publisher that accepts agented and unagented submissions… when I see an author mention in their query letter that their ms is also under consideration with agents, I worry. Even if we are interested in your ms, we already know we’re going to have a bit of a snag down the road before we can move forward in acquisitions. We’ll have to wait for you to contact the agents, and then wait again for you to explain that you have an offer and see if they’re interested. And even if they’re still interested at that point… Will the author have to withdraw their ms from us? Will we see it again later, from the agent? Or will the agent submit it to other publishers instead? I think sometimes authors just assume that they can get an agent at that point to vet their contract and all will be peachy. Not necessarily. And if you’re subbing simultaneously to “save time”, you’re not actually saving anyone’s time. If anything you’re making the process take longer than it would have otherwise because multiple parties are involved and they each have a different type of investment in your book.

My advice, as always, is to have a plan for your publishing path before you submit a query to *anyone*, whether it be an agent or an editor or the decision to self-publish (oh I could go on about the amount of self-published subs we get too that basically just want us to magically make more sales happen because they couldn’t do it on their own–but I won’t). When you say you’re submitting simultaneously to both agents and editors, it gives the impression that you’re not sure which path you want to take yet, and that is unprofessional at best. At worst, it causes a lot of problems down the road that can easily be avoided by approaching your submission process with a clear goal for your writing career.

This helped me not at all. I only feel more lost than before. Agents now want me to respect their efforts, while most don’t even acknowledge submissions. Very few send rejections, instead most just claim they are so busy that ignoring a writer’s submission is considered an acceptable form of saying they are not interested.

Now I feel like I am wrong if I try to create interest in my work in one of the many avenues of publishing available. How long do I wait before I am certain that no reply means rejection and turn my efforts elsewhere?

I second what has been said in the other comments. I don’t have much to add, but that I didn’t previously realise (especially when it comes to agents backing out of contests) how grave/vast the consequences of subbing to both were. In summer, I took part in a contest where small presses only were concerned, and, because I entered on a “I’ve just finished this new version of the query” whim, I think I was guilty there of using them as, in your words, “test subjects”. I got one offer before I realised that, for the particular novel, small press was not the route I wanted to take. I’d queried agents before, but that’d been before the MS was properly polished.
On the other hand, I love that you start the post considering different books rather than different authors. I think some authors think wrongly that they have to pick one path and stick with it. I myself would like to, at some point, take a break from the heavier style of writing, and write a lighter romance book – there, I’d sub to small presses. 😀

Wow, Dahlia! This is incredibly eye-opening. I am absolutely bookmarking this to use as a resource! Thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge on this topic. It helps to answer so many questions I’ve had at the back of my mind and wished I could ask. Thank you, thank you! 😉

I just found this post and have to say, I am guilty of sending to both, but not guilty of trying to use one against the other as leverage. What I wonder is if you have any advice for not burning bridges now that I’ve already made the mistake? I currently have two full manuscripts out with agents and just got a request for a manuscript from a small press. The small press would be a wonderful opportunity that I would definitely go for if the two agents pass. Would you go ahead and send the manuscript to the small press without mentioning the agents (or would you mention them)? Would you tell the small press no? Would you tell them you would like to send the manuscript at a later time if it becomes available? Other ideas? Thank you.

Don’t stress about having already done this; I assure you, most people considering small presses have! I think my answer on this would depend on how badly you want an agent for this ms. Like, say they offer, and those two agents pass. Would you then accept the offer? Or would you keep looking for an agent who might want to take it on sub? (Vs. an agent to handle your negotiations with the small press.) In general, small press editors are in the “honesty is the best policy” camp; keep that in mind, assess how much you want the offer vs. how much you want an agent, and go from there 🙂

From the start, I was interested in signing with an agent. So from the time I queried my very first ms, I’d only queried agents. Then last year I attended a writer’s conference and ended up chatting with an editor of a small publishing house. We seemed to really click, and suddenly my unwavering position on my publishing goals began to waver. When I got an offer from my agent, I was upfront with her, letting her know that at some point, I’d like to work with this particular editor down the road. She seemed to really appreciate my honesty. I think that’s the key, honest intentions. Being shady, and trying to use one party to manipulate the other party isn’t professional.

You’ve stated some good thoughts here. I hope writers take your thoughts and advice. The business is already hard enough and it would suck for it to get even harder because people are ruining it. Specially with the contests. They’re are awesome opportunities and really make you feel like someone is hearing you when you’re pitching. It would suck for those to become less frequent or shut down.

I would say mostly but not all. It’s more that I think the contests that combine both (including Twitter pitch contests) are why there’s been such a huge rise in it. But I know it was also an issue in pitch events – writers pitching small presses at small-press only events and then saying they didn’t want to sub to one.

It’s interesting that you mention contests that include both. I’ve avoided entering contests that have agents and editors for this very reason. I don’t like to disappoint people, so I’d hate for an editor to request and then have to tell them no thanks.

I actually think it would be better for contest organizers stick to one or the other to avoid this type of confusion. Even though I know it’s not their intention, it ends up suggesting to entrants that it’s ok to submit to both at the same time. I’m sure they are just trying to give writers as many options as possible, but it ends up muddying the waters.

I absolutely agree that organizers need to keep those separate, though with things like Twitter pitch contests, it’s impossible to stop it. And yes, for *sure* I think everyone has the best intentions, but it’s become a mess and I’m afraid it’s going to shut down contests, which would be such a shame.

Thanks so much for continuing the dialogue about simultaneous subbing. I am 100% guilty of doing it (if it is considered a crime), and my story is kind of similar to jmbray’s. I had come to the end of my query list and sent 1 submission to a small press that I was very excited about. The small press offered me a contract while I still had a handful of outstanding queries and 5 or 6 full manuscripts with agents including an R&R. I let the agents know, and got some very nice passes, as well as one offer of rep, a weird semi-offer, and a few needing more time. I ended up accepting the first agent’s offer and I’m not a bit sorry about how it happened. No contracts had been signed, no promises were made, and hopefully there were no hard feelings. I would have been happy with either the small press or an agent. In my particular case, I thought both would have been great options.

It feels like the wild, wild west out there right now for authors and as long as everyone is respectful and open, I don’t see why we should feel guilty about trying to get the best deal for ourselves and our work. If the process of getting an agent was more standardized, then I would agree that authors should respect the process. But because agent’s guidelines and response times vary so much, and because small presses are a viable alternative, I think simultaneous subbing will only increase.

Super informative and well written article! Actually read it on Brenda Drake’s blog – getting ready for pitch madness 🙂

Question maybe you can answer: What is the etiquette for if you have two ms’s and have subbed them over time and get two offers from two different agents repping two different genres (this is a scenario that hasn’t happened, but I had a sudden panic if it did.)

Thanks! Honestly, the etiquette is that you shouldn’t be subbing two different mss at once. I know that’s annoying to hear, but that’s really the gist – you should only have one thing out there at a time. That said… for weird reasons that were actually legit, this *did* happen to me, though they were the same genre (I only write contemp). I asked both agents to read both manuscripts and make sure they loved both. But this is so, so ill-advised, it’s not worth it, I promise.

Thanks Dahlia- I’d subbed one ms quite a while ago- and months passed (I didn’t hear back from some agents and know some of them have a no reply policy if they pass…) Ages later, I did get some replies after I’d already been subbing a new ms. Nothing positive, but I figured several months was a decent grace period and I’d always wondered how this might be handled if something came of it- though I suppose that’s just wishful thinking. Anyway, thank you and good to know!

Ah, yeah, it’s tricky when you have that passage of time in between, because how much is really enough? Theoretically I think 6 months is the convention, but that seems like such a long time. Realistically though, the odds of someone making an offer when they’ve taken that long to get to it probably aren’t awesome, but in that rare situation… I’d say I had an offer on another manuscript and ask if they’re interested in reading it. Which again, not so awesome of me to do (and I hate that I’ve done it multiple times) but if I’m being honest, that’s what I’ve done. Or rather than ask them to read it, you can talk about the other ms on each call and see how interested they seem in the ms they’re not offering on.

This is great advice. Through several sets of bizarre circumstances, I got in the situation of having five full requests for my WIP while I was still querying a completed MS. Then I got offers on my completed MS and had the confusion of — what — wait a minute — what do I tell the agents who wanted to see my OTHER project?? Headache inducing…

There’s no reason it would be bad etiquette to query more than one manuscript simultaneously. If you get an offer on one of two circulating manuscripts, you behave just as if you had gotten an offer on one of one. You notify anyone with requested material that you’ve had an offer, and then you give them time to decide.

It’s not as if you’re expecting an agent to represent only the one manuscript. In fact, most agents during the phone call will ask if you have anything else. If you can say, honestly, “I’ve actually got a second one ready to go,” why wouldn’t the agent be happy about it?

It’s not about being bad etiquette, per se, although I’ve seen agents say they’d rather authors didn’t do this – having been in that position, I found I did *myself* a disservice. Getting an offer on one was in no way a guarantee that agent would love the other, and ultimately, I found I had to choose between which manuscript I cared about getting subbed by an agent more.

Yes, agents always want you to have other work, but A) I think a lot of writers don’t realize that an agent doesn’t *have* to rep all your other stuff, and B) it puts you in a funny position to tell an agent you have an offer on another ms, and now how do they want to counter?

As for “If you can say, honestly, ‘I’ve actually got a second one ready to go’,” sure, an agent would be happy to hear you’ve got other things (though because many won’t sub two from the same author at once, especially if they’re the same genre, I don’t think it’s necessarily *more* ecstatic-making than “And I’ve got something great in the works”), but that’s a conversation you have on The Call, not in a query letter.

Great tips! People just don’t understand the process. Of course, it seems like it’s getting more complicated with additional options (some of them bad), and a new author likely will stand at the crossroads of confusion trying to figure out how to get his or her book published. Thanks for putting this good information out there!

I admit, I may have been partially guilty of this… o_< I started seriously querying my novel, Tearing the Shroud, in Feb, 2013. I went about it in a very organized way, submitting only to agents I had carefully researched, using QueryTracker, etc. I even limited myself to twelve. Once I received an rejection from one then I'd send out another, always maintaining that number.

In April I came across a small publisher, that seemed like a fit. Though I had received a couple of MS requests, I had no offers yet, so I submitted to the pub. They also were not interested, but that opened me a bit more to the idea. I kept my twelve balance to agents, and sent inquires to two more publishers over the next couple of months. At the time I didn't' feel there was any harm, because they all were still saying no. (Thus the "may have been guilty")

In late April I submitted to a third publisher, Escape Publishing. They are a branch of Harlequin and though my story had a "love line" in it, I thought of it as more Fantasy. But it seemed to fit what they were calling for and they are a fantastic publisher, so though I didn't have high expectations, I figured I'd give it a try. June 1, I received an offer from them…and here is where my previous actions came to bite me.

Since I still had queries outstanding, I believed (and still do) it to be professional and considerate to let the agents know. They were all very gracious, encouraging, and thankful for my actions. BUT, the process held up my being able to start immediately on the contract review etc. with Escape. Fortunately, they were also very accommodating and agreed it was the correct thing to do.

Though everything worked out, it could have gone south. Submitting to one or the other would have been a better way to go.

Everyone has to screw up a few times to learn; Lord knows I’ve done some things I wish I hadn’t in my time, and I’m still doing them. Glad things ultimately worked out for you, and thanks for sharing your experience in depth!

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