I think that the higher profile that astrology has had over the last year or so may be upsetting some who have real power and this is just a swat of the kinds of things that are done on their level of politics on a regular basis. But the dishonesty shown by these elites (or at the very least the lack of careful investigation) ought to unite the rest of us to set the record straight about the use of this dirty trick that the typical novice would not see past because of the technicalities involved. Good luck explaining ancient ideas about "trepidation of the zodiac" and the basis for the use of the vernal point with Aristotle's observations on the elements ... (right in one ear and out the other).

I remember Robert Schmidt saying a few years ago that based upon the fracturing trend in the different branches of study in this field in recent years, that the subject might evaporate and disappear in a few decades. If the media succeeds at injecting Ophiuchus into this to the point that such sites like astrology.com who cater to the demands of people who generally don't delve deeper than sun sign astrology, start paying for this because of the engineered political will generated by skeptics, well that just makes the field look like BS and not worth another look._________________Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

this one even gives the sidereal Sun sign reading.
does this make pisces the thirteenth sign or ophiucus as the thirteenth sign.This will cause major upset - Winston Churchill will not be Sagittarian but Ophiucusian.

this one even gives the sidereal Sun sign reading.
does this make pisces the thirteenth sign or ophiucus as the thirteenth sign.

this has really gone viral.

a bad 2011 and followed by. ..... 2012.
can we invent year 2010a and skip 2012.

:-)

Notice that astronomers never say that Vedic astrologers "got it right" which would naturally follow by the logic that they are using. Perhaps that's why they threw a wrench into the works in the form of a 13th sign so that all forms of astrology are seen as "incorrect" and "unlucky". The highly prejudicial way in which this story has taken form is naturally inimical to honest investigation and seeks to close minds to rational dissent._________________Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

Back in the 70s due to a split in the Democrat Party, neither the Democrat nor the Republican won the New York seat for the US Senate. James Buckley, brother of William Buckley a prominent conservative pundit, won the US Senate seat on the Conservative Party ticket. This did not sit well with the New York Times.

Buckley was something of an early environmentalist although in the early 70s he would have been called a conservationist. He decided to take a trip to see something or other in that vein during a vacation. It may have been to Alaska. That's not important. A Times reporter wanted to tag along and wanted the government to pick up part of his expenses. Buckley said "No," The trip was a personal vacation. He was paying for it himself, so get lost.

The Times paid the guy's expenses and he followed Buckley everywhere, and filed stories that were dutifully printed on the front page. Then in an editorial the Times criticized Buckley for "publicity seeking." Even without the background, it is pretty obvious that the charge was ludicrous, but I'm sure many nodded their heads sagely, when they read it.

Many problems are due to mutual unfamiliarity of astronomers and astrologers. Many astronomers believe that astrologers never heard of precession but many astrologers believe that astronomers think that all astrology is similar to newspaper sun sign astrology. I can't blame the astronomers though, when every time a new asteroid is discovered and named it's used in charts and every now and then a doomsday prophet tells us about the end of the world after which nothing happens.

Talking about internet memes I remember that in the Netherlands a journalist deliberately had posted a bogus news to test the reactions. Within a few hours every respected newspaper had copied it in their news section without checking its validity.

I remember that in the Netherlands a journalist deliberately had posted a bogus news to test the reactions.

Don't stop there, a long time ago a Massachusetts legislator (or maybe it was a Massachusetts member of the US House) proposed one Albert DeSalvo be honored by the legislative body for his contributions to population control. Albert DeSalvo's other name was "The Boston Strangler." The proposal passed unanimously.

I remember Robert Schmidt saying a few years ago that based upon the fracturing trend in the different branches of study in this field in recent years, that the subject might evaporate and disappear in a few decades. If the media succeeds at injecting Ophiuchus into this to the point that such sites like astrology.com who cater to the demands of people who generally don't delve deeper than sun sign astrology, start paying for this because of the engineered political will generated by skeptics, well that just makes the field look like BS and not worth another look.

I don't really understand Schmidt's point here.

Psychotherapy is similar, you had the more Freudian beginnings and then splitting into 400 or so different approaches. It is just as solid today as in Freud's day. in fact more so, as ideas get refined and discarded along the way and empiricism seperates the wheat from the chaff. (Astrology is not as studied in this respect of course)

With astrology you have celestial omens and then spitting into zodiacs and perspectives based on various metaphysical underpinnings entertained at various times.

Somehow you seem to be linking this fragmentation into a news story that comes around every few years.

Schmdt is a bright chap, so am I missing something ?

Astrology is seem as bullshit by about 98.47% of the Intelligent world, isn't it ? I doubt this story will shift it more than another 0.01%.

Somehow you seem to be linking this fragmentation into a news story that comes around every few years.

Schmdt is a bright chap, so am I missing something ?

Schmidt wasn't thinking anything of the sort along this line of causation and I don't think it can be as simple as that one factor either. But it is just one more hurdle thrown in the way of astrology being taken as an honest form of investigation where prejudice threatens to build up to such a point that no one can think straight about it anymore. I doubt that the field has a chance to gain better acceptance, but if you remember history, it definitely has the chance of becoming illegal again as has been the case in various times and places in the world. If something bad happens because of the social shift in astrological beliefs and it generates something like what happened in Tucson, AZ, the population could turn against astrology again and we could have ourselves a witch hunt. Don't lull yourself to think it can't happen. It already has in the past._________________Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

And worse. Astrologer Luke Broughton, the father of American astrology, was living in Philadelphia when he, more or less predicted the death of Abraham Lincoln. He did not predict that Lincoln would be shot in Ford's Theater, but he did point out a period of grave danger to the President during the time he was assassinated.

His reward was to have his offices ransacked by what was described as "an anti-astrology mob." One might think he pulled the trigger.

Later he would be harassed, arrested, and held in jail* in his new home in New York City to which he fled after his home was attacked in Philadelphia. Broughton never did a damn thing to anyone. He published a magazine, read charts, and gave lessons and lectures. So yes this can happen again.

*Broughton's account of this story is that his student W.H. Chaney was arrested and held in Jail. Chaney says they both were locked up. The arrest may have been due in part to Broughton's refusal to kowtow to NYC politicians and I'm sure Chaney's attitude when confronted by authority didn't help. And if Broughton did omit his own incarceration, it might be due to humiliation. I doubt he forgot about it.

I am also not very knowledgable of the status of Astrology in the USA or the typical man in the streets there view of it.
In the UK it is seen as harmless fun and unless someone does something dangerous or criminal due to the advice of an astrologer I don't think its overall status will change in the immediate future.

I seriously doubt this latest precession story will change anything here.

I was referring to the nut who shot Gabby Giffords and several others in Tucson recently (Obama came to Tucson and made it a national event). Astrologers are just another variation of what the public views as harmless nuts, but if that changes from harmless to harmful, the legality of it could be brought into question again. In Nevada, you have to go into a "booking" process where you are fingerprinted in the same way that criminals are treated after having been arrested for a crime if you want to do readings for people legally as a business, which is why I only sell software in Nevada. It's Nevada's way of saying "we've got our eye on you, so behave and don't cause trouble"._________________Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC

I was referring to the nut who shot Gabby Giffords and several others in Tucson recently (Obama came to Tucson and made it a national event). Astrologers are just another variation of what the public views as harmless nuts, but if that changes from harmless to harmful, the legality of it could be brought into question again.

This is not as far-fetched as it might sound to people unfamiliar with the extreme right wing religious faction in the US. I keep an eye on that segment of the sociopolitical spectrum by monitoring a thriving religious television station based in Midland, Texas: there, the guests continually decry God's wrath against "occultists" who practice astrology and yoga (of all things). The shooter in the recent Arizona event had practiced yoga in the past, and this is being pointed to as the opening the devil needed to possess the young man's soul. According to this mindset, God desires the deaths of people who dabble in such things - astrology is lumped right in along with devil worship and the rest of it. Wrong-headed and insane as this is, those are the facts on the ground. All it would take is an opportunistic politician with an insistent constituency to push through the desired "reforms."

There are always extremists on all sides of the political spectrum. They say extreme things; that's how we know they're extremists. They do not now have the political clout to do anything and in the US not too many people wander about worrying about what astrologers are up to. But it is also true that anything is possible.

Where I live, in order to legitimately open up shop as an astrologer one has to be fingerprinted as well as apply for and pay for all sorts of permits! There aren't too many legitimate businesses where the law requires fingerprinting. A business might require it of employees. This is probably more of a danger, that astrologers would be, if not outright prohibited from practicing, that they will make it difficult to practice with things like this.

Philadelphia outlawed astrologers a few years ago, but they backtracked after a short while.

We have a public relations problem, and I don't see it going away even if misguided religions or even devil worshipers go away first.

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