What I don't understand is WHY we don't unite the two factions and then let the guardian of trisfal rule as the warchief/highking.

people seem to think animosity can't exist if the factions are done away with. I need only ask how many Horde players feel animosity towards blood elves and how many Alliance players feel animosity towards gnomes to say factions don't mean crap. Personally I don't give a crap about humans, probably more so because of their overbearing presence in the lore and playerbase, but they are still faction mates.

No it wouldn't. If the Saudis had no one to buy their oil would they be wealthy? If you had a lot more grain than your people could ever use that half your yearly crop just rotted and was unusable, what good is all the production? You can't sell it in your local market, but maybe a nation next door could use it and will happily give you resources you need for whatever, in exchange for it. Sure, you could take over that country after a costly war, but you will still have a lot of grain rotting in a silo, and even less people to want it. Not to mention the newly occupied "subjects" might still be waging war against you.

Orcs are not even the slightest bit resourceful with how they manage their land, they harvest more lumber than they need, and let it rot in the lumberyard so it cannot even be used. Their solution when they end up needing more, is to keep pillaging. This is how they are written into the game and story. So even if they got Ashenvale, in a few years it'd be a desert like Durotar and then what?

Orcs are not even the slightest bit resourceful with how they manage their land, they harvest more lumber than they need, and let it rot in the lumberyard so it cannot even be used. Their solution when they end up needing more, is to keep pillaging. This is how they are written into the game and story. So even if they got Ashenvale, in a few years it'd be a desert like Durotar and then what?

Orcs are not less resourceful than humans or whatever

And what says one lumber yard is representative of everything everywhere? And who says they do it because they are economically stupid rather than just to smite and piss off the Elves. Or maybe they cant effectivly chop stuff down because half the place is on fire and under Night Elf attack.

Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-05 at 02:32 AM.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Any war is far from pointless, people dont go out to kill for little to no reasons.

War, all too often, is about generally selling propaganda to your own population, which gets them to back the decisions of those in power.

I was late to this game, and never played the prior Warcraft games, but the H vs. A thing has never seemed to have much of a point in this game other than "here's who you pvp against", and as a vehicle for story writing.

"Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB
"I see we have visitors. Two arms!" - Mar'tak

War, all too often, is about generally selling propaganda to your own population, which gets them to back the decisions of those in power..

"What does war matter to the crippled, homeless and orphans if the war is fought in the name of tryanny or the holy name of freedom and democracy"

---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 02:26 AM ----------

Originally Posted by melodramocracy

I was late to this game, and never played the prior Warcraft games, but the H vs. A thing has never seemed to have much of a point in this game other than "here's who you pvp against", and as a vehicle for story writing.

The RTS games are the root of the countless old hatrds and grivences between the factions

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

I think the whole point of 5.4 is to deal with your complaints of the Horde.

Your sentiment towards the lack of unity is really what has shaken the Horde to its core (NPC-wise) and it has made them realized that Garrosh is toxic and needs to be removed.

My guess is that starting with the next expansion, we're going to be seeing a vastly different Horde than what we currently know. Either going back to it's former glory, or transcending it and reaching new heights, we will see a new Horde rising from Garrosh's ashes.

"What does war matter to the crippled, homeless and orphans if the war is fought in the name of tryanny or the holy name of freedom and democracy"

“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

Originally Posted by Dreknar20

The RTS games are the root of the countless old hatrds and grivences between the factions

That's my understanding. Maybe one day I'll go back and play them, (RTS generally aren't my cup of tea however)

"Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB
"I see we have visitors. Two arms!" - Mar'tak

Kinda that look you get when you hear that East and North are playing, or when Kapaun and Bishop Carroll are playing?

--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

hahah, nice Herman Goring quote

But in a way why leaders fight seems somewhat petty. For greed and lust for power and jeously and what not, cept they are playing with the lives of thousands of people, in which ill use another quote

"Emperors and cobblers are of the same mold, the same reasons that make us fight with our neighboors spark wars between princes"

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

Yes, but is it ultimately a good thing when you DON'T win? When whatever short term gain you get through captured resources is outweighed by what you have to spend in the war, the lives lost on both sides, and the fact that in the end you've lost and that new-found power diminished back to below where it started? Even if you go by an 'ends justifies the means' approach, you still have to have the ends turn out well or it doesn't justify anything. In this case, even if you justify Garrosh trying to drive the night elves from their land so his people can prosper, when that attempt fails and the Horde ends up weaker in the end for it, is it still a justified or good thing to have done?

In this case, even if you justify Garrosh trying to drive the night elves from their land so his people can prosper, when that attempt fails and the Horde ends up weaker in the end for it, is it still a justified or good thing to have done?

No war is ever good if you lose.
Even as you said, you end up losing more than what you set out to gain, its still better to lose that much but still win the war, because if you lose the war you will end up losing even more, usually.

Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-05 at 04:14 AM.

We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

I will agree with your points Traask. The Alliance just seems to have less of a story compared to the Horde, but more than that the Horde's "focused story" isn't even that good. The pumping out of new Pandaren themed battlegrounds is actually more depressing because it just goes to show exactly how far both the Alliance and Horde will go in their own desecrations on a land and continent that both factions see as "ripe for the picking." It's not even good story telling when they let us get so attached to the Pandaren and their lore only to see the factions we apparently represent burn, rape and pillage it to the ground over, and I quote Taran zhu here, our filthy race-war.

Granted, without the aid of the Alliance and Horde "heroes" (that's us) the sha would have eventually returned, even without the massive negative emotion influence we brought with us. Also us not coming to Pandaria would have meant the Thunderking would have been able to easily defeat the Shado-pan without the aid of the Kirin-tor and the Sunreavers. But at the end of the day, when looking at the destruction of part of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, the tearing down of the statue in Jade Forest, and the countless careless things we have done in our clumsy, child-like arrival, is it worth it?

Atleast for me, it is not. Infact to me, it would have been a better story if we had another expansion before Pandaria, and went to the misty continent after the Thunderking made his foothold. Atleast then it would make the Alliance and Horde look honorable in saving the innocent race from a dictator.

I'm not saying don't get hyped for Legion. I'm saying expect less communication, more marketing and about the same amount of scrapped features as WoD.

If you don't want fucking spoilers, how about not frequenting a data mining website, ffs.

LFR was and is the only real world solution to make raiding profitable and keep the difficulty settings everyone around here takes for granted.

ANd lets not forget what you and I agreed on a LONG time ago Trassk...

...in the end of the day, the Horde/Alliance conflict will NEVER end as Metzen/Blizz has made this the core base of the game. This is why putting the conflict as the main part of the MMORPG story SUCKS... it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong... in the end we'll still be fighting against each other next expansion and 20 expansions from now.

In WoW, the war between Horde/Alliance ONLY works as a background element with fleeting touches (such as wrathgate). it should NEVER be the focus of an expansion/storyline as, by definition, one side will NEVER truly win.

Garrosh goes, but the horde will be fine. Alliance won't get their territories back, and a new orc or whomever will step in his place. And we start the cycle ALL OVER AGAIN... sigh...

Eff the damn war! Just let us fight over who gets to kill the Titans, Undead, Demons and whatever else they throw at us. THAT is far more fun! Leave the "war" to PVP... leave the story/world development to PVE.

Last edited by mvallas; 2013-05-05 at 05:25 AM.

Isn't it immature that you call him Donald "Dump"?
I agree, it's childish and stupid - and that's my point. it's meant as a deliberate mockery of his blatant disrespect via using "Crooked Hillary", and thus I can call him "Dump" since he dumps his campaign promises, dumps campaign managers, dumps his wives, wants to dump the first amendment, dumps common-sense war ethics and dumps the use of proper English in favor of a mongrel white-trash dialect.

TBH I believe the faction war should be the only major war in the game and the dragons, old gods, etc should be second fiddle

I would love to see the war swing both ways patch to patch never knowing who is winning the war

One patch the horde destroys an alliance town and the next patch the alliance obliterates a horde town in retaliation

All this 'lets be friends' never lasts cause azeroth isnt big enough for there to be coexistence

At the end of the day the cheesy george lucas good guys and bad guys joining together to fight the big bad has been done to death and cant keep being rehashed and with the faction war it keeps the flame wars going on the forums and keeps things fresh just like how your favourite sports team plays there hated local rival each year and you pay cause you want to see them beaten even though you know deep down that cant happen indefinitely

Yus. I've come to the realization that, while theres still that feeling I have about still thinking of the horde as my faction, I've come to realize its based upon what I use to like about the horde, and in a strange way, what I respected about the alliance.
From WC3 to Wrath days, I actually enjoyed the faction conflict, the sense of pride in my own faction, but also that sense of balance with the other. And lets be honest here, i think many of us did as well.

So many threads these days is spoken out from the alliance at the dissatisfaction with the current lore, and losing there own sense of faction identity. Likewise, as horde, I don't feel any sense of pride in my faction anymore given all the current crap its gone though under Garrosh. From wc3 to wrath days, the horde felt like a unified group of misfits finding a common ground, and the odd quirks in there races didn't matter, the real feel of the faction came from its honor to each other.

Nowadays, the horde is split apart and the racial sense of togetherness has eroded, orcs and trolls/tauren are no longer friends but fighting one another. And the alliance keeps wanting to feel any sense of faction pride it once use to feel, but never gets.

And all this steamed from cataclysm, when the world was remade and the fundemental changes made to the horde and alliance caused these changes, you know the ones, those that people thought were so cool because they shook up the status-quo? Its not done you any good now has it?

Infact the only ones who have gotten anything out of any of this are those who just like to see things burn and bad shit happening.

Am I the only one that wishes cataclysm never happened, and all this misplaced storytelling was cast off? I've never felt more detached from the faction i use to love playing as, and I don't see any faction pride left even on the other side of the fence.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 12:00 AM ----------

Edit: Infact the only satisfaction I've had storywise in mists has come from the pandaren, and not the faction based sides, just those in pandaria. I see the new battleground they made set in valley of the four winds, and instead of wooting for faction pride, all I think is 'oh god, what are these dumb fu**s doing now?'

Well man, while have mixed emotions about this, i agree with you and i understand your feeling about it. First, let's say that in some ways i like the current situation because, as you said, helped to develop some good characters, even some that weren't important at all, and give to the Horde storyline that kind of tension and crisis that, while a punch in the face for the pride and "affection" many of us had for the faction, it's escalation brougth to a clash, both physical and ideological, on what is the true meaning of the Horde, something so important that is even worth spilling the blood of the ones that you called brothers, but that now choose a completely different way to use that word. And this is somehow a chance for fight for the lost pride, for regain it and be like a "herald" of the true Horde.

But, in the same time, i cannot deny that i liked the Horde-Alliance war much more as it was before Cata. There was hate, distrust, but still understanding that some threats required a combined force. There was clashes and brawls all around the world, proving that peace was not on the fingertips, still no one wanted to destroy the other faction, no one wanted to waste lives and resources in obliterate the other to death, nor there was a real interest about it.
Both factions had interesting quests all regarding their own matters, others focused on their personal way to conduct the important campaigns against a common enemy (like in Outland and Northrend) still were common big and violent world pvp events, or even occasional face-off.

And these were the times where the Horde was like it used to be, savage and even aggressive, but never brutal or warmongering. There was pride in being a force "united against a world that want to put you down" and the feeling for the Horde player was not of destroying the Alliance, but just defending himself against them, show them that i was holding with nails and tooth my fucking place in the world despite all the hate or the disgust they could have, and in case they would harm or kill my brethren, vengeance would be bloody. While the Alliance of course wasn't hating you all the time, was the right mindset of the Horde character and player when doing pvp, and was great, because brought that strong pride on your faction.

But now how can you have the same feeling, when is YOUR faction that is trying to put down the rest of the world ? You just feel more ashamed than proud, and if not ashamed, not even proud at all. While the tag of "bad guys" was nothing more than the prejudice of the Alliance, now this tag is very hard to drop, in fact, while nearly all the recent Horde actions have some kind justification, nothing can change the fact that we are the outright aggressors, and the Alliance are the ones that try to defend themselves. While i'm not the better person for understand Alliance feelings, i guess that this situation is bad for them too, because as the Horde are ever more the "bad guys", the story is going to place a gigantic tag that say "GOOD GUYS", while they don't even want to be the good guys, they just want to be Alliance, and play their characters for all the ideals, the reasons and the matters they have as Alliance players.

I hope something for the post-5.4 events, but for some reason i fear the worse.

EDIT: one of the best moments of Horde-Alliance joined forces was the Might of Kalimdor, with Saurfang giving THAT speech (was like poetry in a world of wars and blood) and the commander of the 7th legion saying "I am with you until I gasp my last dying breath.", with all the Alliance commanders yelling and cheering...damn, that was powerful.