Someone posted: "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

This may be true, but this is not what American militias today are doing. The militias today are tyrannical themselves, and afraid that America's semi-democratic processes will lead to their enslavement (which is basically nuts). I wonder whether Thomas Jefferson could've imagined a situation where tyrannical militias were using guns to counter democratic governance. Democratic governance was too young at Jefferson's time for him to understand that one day democracy itself might be threatened by terror coming from domestic militias with access to firepower the likes of which Jefferson could never imagine.

The point being that any arguments regarding militias and or gun control that hearken back to the 18th century are themselves pointless. I doubt Jefferson would agree with the modern application of his theories, but we'll never know.

I do think I know something though: all of known human history has pushed the human race towards ever greater integration of societies. This is now occurring at the global level. Internationalism will likely continue to deepen as long as the human race remains an ongoing concern. At some point, our semi-democratic government is going to have to confront these anti-internationalist militias in order to be able to peacefully organize an economic system with more growth potential than the overly nationalized global economic system we see dying currently.

In other words, the world is going to change in ways that lend more force to militia recruitment efforts; the world will become ever more internationalized thus creating ever more confrontation between these groups and our government. I'm not often on the Federal Government's side, but I will be in that case. And it will be serious. As 'neveragainlikesheep' (kinda) posted: 'The militias will bring to life their own nightmare in Quixotic fashion. HOORAY?!?'

Joshua Kane wrote: Someone posted: "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

This may be true, but this is not what American militias today are doing. The militias today are tyrannical themselves, and afraid that America's semi-democratic processes will lead to their enslavement (which is basically nuts). I wonder whether Thomas Jefferson could've imagined a situation where tyrannical militias were using guns to counter democratic governance. Democratic governance was too young at Jefferson's time for him to understand that one day democracy itself might be threatened by terror coming from domestic militias with access to firepower the likes of which Jefferson could never imagine.

The point being that any arguments regarding militias and or gun control that hearken back to the 18th century are themselves pointless. I doubt Jefferson would agree with the modern application of his theories, but we'll never know.

I do think I know something though: all of known human history has pushed the human race towards ever greater integration of societies. This is now occurring at the global level. Internationalism will likely continue to deepen as long as the human race remains an ongoing concern. At some point, our semi-democratic government is going to have to confront these anti-internationalist militias in order to be able to peacefully organize an economic system with more growth potential than the overly nationalized global economic system we see dying currently.

In other words, the world is going to change in ways that lend more force to militia recruitment efforts; the world will become ever more internationalized thus creating ever more confrontation between these groups and our government. I'm not often on the Federal Government's side, but I will be in that case. And it will be serious. As 'neveragainlikesheep' (kinda) posted: 'The militias will bring to life their own nightmare in Quixotic fashion. HOORAY?!?'

I do have to say that your probably right about what Jefferson would have thought about allot of these militias, especially considering that him and most of the founding fathers where firmly anti-religious. He would probably be appalled by allot of things that goes on now a days, the guns, gangs, the number of church's and their influence on the state and fed. I still think the quote applies, and I think he would still stand by it. "The militias will bring to life their own nightmare in Quixotic fashion." This is right, but holds the root of the problem in it at the same time. These people have formed these groups to exercise rights that are being taken away from them, so by being what they are they will eventually be breaking the law as we loose more and more of these paper rights.

As for the militia to government relation, changing do to internationalization, no arguements, simply a fuck the new world order, and fuck their one world government!

"If there be trouble, let it be in my time, so that my children may have peace." - Thomas Paine

Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:11 pm

Joshua Kane

Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 670
Location: Carlsbad, CA

McTools wrote:

I do have to say that your probably right about what Jefferson would have thought about allot of these militias, especially considering that him and most of the founding fathers where firmly anti-religious. He would probably be appalled by allot of things that goes on now a days, the guns, gangs, the number of church's and their influence on the state and fed. I still think the quote applies, and I think he would still stand by it. "The militias will bring to life their own nightmare in Quixotic fashion." This is right, but holds the root of the problem in it at the same time. These people have formed these groups to exercise rights that are being taken away from them, so by being what they are they will eventually be breaking the law as we loose more and more of these paper rights.

As for the militia to government relation, changing do to internationalization, no arguements, simply a fuck the new world order, and fuck their one world government!

"If there be trouble, let it be in my time, so that my children may have peace." - Thomas Paine

Some intriguing points. I have two main questions (for anyone):

1) What 'rights' are being taken away from the militias? Whatever they are, their strategy for protecting them or regaining them is misguided.

2) This question is purely a thought exercise (feel free not to play): What would you prefer - the widespread obliteration of human communities around the globe, or a New World Order (however you may conceptualize that term)?

Ok, if you've made it this far there's a third -

3) If you answered obliteration above, is there any conception of New World Order that would make you choose the New World Order option?

Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:23 pm

McTools

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 181

Joshua Kane wrote:

Some intriguing points. I have two main questions (for anyone):

1) What 'rights' are being taken away from the militias? Whatever they are, their strategy for protecting them or regaining them is misguided.

2) This question is purely a thought exercise (feel free not to play): What would you prefer - the widespread obliteration of human communities around the globe, or a New World Order (however you may conceptualize that term)?

Ok, if you've made it this far there's a third -

3) If you answered obliteration above, is there any conception of New World Order that would make you choose the New World Order option?

Howdy,

1. Not much yet, I don't think I wrote that sentance very well... But then you ansered your own question after asking it so no one's perfect. That was in response to "The militias will bring to life their own nightmare in Quixotic fashion" which is true because if the laws change in the direction that I've heard this cabinet wants to take them in, they can lose rights and be resticted, but they woun't give into any thing like that, so at that point from a sidelines perspective it looks like their restrictions are justified even if they oppose a un-constitutional law. So in that way they can be their own nightmare.

2. I don't understand, obliteration? Do you mean more total control compaired to almost no control? If you think our civilization would be obliterated if we didn't have some thing like the new world order I can safely pass the tin foil cap to you!! Ha! The NWO is not something for me to conceptualize, it is a system that they're setting up right now. My opposition to the NWO is that we already have a problem with the feds and their coruption, greed, and power, the NWO will just be one more level of government higher on the global level. I've seen the super highways with my own eyes, I've seen the prototypes for the Amero online, and we're forming all the unions that are the base plan for syncing the planet together. You know what, fuck it, obliteration!

3. No. Not with these governments, leaders, and military's that we have internationally right now, I don't trust them and I'm pretty damn sure they don't care about me at all. I do not feel comfertable with countrys that can't feed, cloth, or take care of their citizens (especially ours when it claims to be a democracy.) running the whole world. "It's the same we complain about the global war but can't over throw the local joker that we voted for." - Sage. Don't we already have issues with this at a local level? You really want this to affect the planet as a whole? If you think that our system or any other on this planey is capable of the resposibility of the right now planet please let me know your talking points. My brother asked me very close to these same questions last year, and really I don't trust these suits to get a power promotion and do it right.

My girl did a reseach paper in college this last term called, In what ways are the NWO already in effect?. She went of some government sites and found stuff that politicians deny, lie about, and would trip out even some conspiricy theorists. Those gov web sites got more dirt on our country that alex jones's closet! Peep em out if you don't already know about the NWO, it's almost done! Woo Hoo! :)

Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:47 pm

Raoul DeGroot

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest

Are things really so boring as they are, that you kids need to create this mythology? Aren't the ways the world's being systematically fucked over in plain sight enough to worry about without dreaming up some unified theory of black helicopter tomfuckery?

Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:00 pm

McTools

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 181

Raoul DeGroot wrote: Are things really so boring as they are, that you kids need to create this mythology? Aren't the ways the world's being systematically fucked over in plain sight enough to worry about without dreaming up some unified theory of black helicopter tomfuckery?

Did you go to some gov web pages and see what you can find about the NWO? Or are you just talking shit? My girl got a A on that paper, which I assume means that her research was proper and her refferences ligit. I'll get her refference list and post it on here tonight... And I've seen the choppers! :)

Both the choppers and the men where un-marked. No names, no numbers. Not relevent, but kind of ironic!

Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:35 pm

Raoul DeGroot

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2437
Location: Son Quest

Naw, the refferences were not so ligit, dog. Not so ligit.

Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:51 pm

the meanCertified O.G.

Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6500
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio

Shit. Did we just have a serious mention of black helicopters?

Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:52 pm

breakfast

Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 2897

McTools, not to totally draw you off topic, but what is your argument for gun ownership other than as a tool for shooting cans off of things? Don't you think it's a little excessive keeping our current gun ownership laws in place, and pushing for "Safe Gun Use" tutorials if you're just going to pop shots at inanimate objects?

Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:19 pm

Joshua Kane

Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 670
Location: Carlsbad, CA

McTools wrote:

Joshua Kane wrote:

Some intriguing points. I have two main questions (for anyone):

1) What 'rights' are being taken away from the militias? Whatever they are, their strategy for protecting them or regaining them is misguided.

2) This question is purely a thought exercise (feel free not to play): What would you prefer - the widespread obliteration of human communities around the globe, or a New World Order (however you may conceptualize that term)?

Ok, if you've made it this far there's a third -

3) If you answered obliteration above, is there any conception of New World Order that would make you choose the New World Order option?

Howdy,

1. Not much yet, I don't think I wrote that sentance very well... But then you ansered your own question after asking it so no one's perfect. That was in response to "The militias will bring to life their own nightmare in Quixotic fashion" which is true because if the laws change in the direction that I've heard this cabinet wants to take them in, they can lose rights and be resticted, but they woun't give into any thing like that, so at that point from a sidelines perspective it looks like their restrictions are justified even if they oppose a un-constitutional law. So in that way they can be their own nightmare.

True I did answer the question, although, I can't say I'm surprised you couldn't come up with specific rights. That's because the NWO conspiracy is driven by fear rather than reality. During any epoch of great change, uncertainty breeds fear, and that fear breeds misguided political movements. The Luddites would be one example. But most Luddite fears regarding enslavement to machines have not come about. In fact, the machines the Luddites feared sparked democratic movements around the globe. Which brings us to our 2nd question....

McTools wrote:
2. I don't understand, obliteration? Do you mean more total control compaired to almost no control? If you think our civilization would be obliterated if we didn't have some thing like the new world order I can safely pass the tin foil cap to you!! Ha! The NWO is not something for me to conceptualize, it is a system that they're setting up right now. My opposition to the NWO is that we already have a problem with the feds and their coruption, greed, and power, the NWO will just be one more level of government higher on the global level. I've seen the super highways with my own eyes, I've seen the prototypes for the Amero online, and we're forming all the unions that are the base plan for syncing the planet together. You know what, fuck it, obliteration!

As I've said, all of known history has pushed humanity towards ever greater societal integration. By obliteration, then, I mean total societal breakdown, the dark ages. These are the two paths confronting humanity right now, and they are the same two paths that have confronted humanity during every crisis in known history: 1) Societal breakdown and a return to primitivism. Or 2) Inter-societal coordination to overcome crisis.

Do me a favor, in your mind, divorce the words 'new world order' from the concept New World Order. Conceptualize new world order as simply that, a new order of power on the globe - perhaps a non-hegemonic more multi-polar order. Its like this - somekind of new world order is coming. It is coming because it is necessary. It is necessary because the power hierarchies that exist in the world are overly national, and therefore incapable of coordinating to overcome environmental degradation (for one) or the decline of the dollar as reserve currency (for another). If environmental degradation continues, human societies will eventually be obliterated. If the world can't cooperate to find a way out of the dollar bubble, then conflict will follow. Those sorts of conflicts in the past have used every available weapon and then some. Obliteration could come that way then as well. In fact, the only thing that can keep societal breakdown from occurring in the future is greater coordination at the international level, i.e. a new world order. But that new world order need not be the black helicopter New World Order conceived by militias and their ilk. Onto 3...

McTools wrote:
3. No. Not with these governments, leaders, and military's that we have internationally right now, I don't trust them and I'm pretty damn sure they don't care about me at all. I do not feel comfertable with countrys that can't feed, cloth, or take care of their citizens (especially ours when it claims to be a democracy.) running the whole world. "It's the same we complain about the global war but can't over throw the local joker that we voted for." - Sage. Don't we already have issues with this at a local level? You really want this to affect the planet as a whole? If you think that our system or any other on this planey is capable of the resposibility of the right now planet please let me know your talking points. My brother asked me very close to these same questions last year, and really I don't trust these suits to get a power promotion and do it right.

My girl did a reseach paper in college this last term called, In what ways are the NWO already in effect?. She went of some government sites and found stuff that politicians deny, lie about, and would trip out even some conspiricy theorists. Those gov web sites got more dirt on our country that alex jones's closet! Peep em out if you don't already know about the NWO, it's almost done! Woo Hoo! :)

Your answer to this question parallels militia thought in many ways. It is light on specific facts, heavy on fear, with a dose of "I know cuz the Internet told me (or my girlfriend) so." If you fear the New World Order, the solution is not to isolate yourself from it, it is to become a an active part of it before it crystallizes into something that truly should be feared. The election of Obama suggests that this will be the route that the left takes, an inside-outside route; although, it is clearly only an initial step in what is certain to be a long slog to protect our rights as some sort of 'new world order' forms. This, strategically and socially, is a preferable route.

But in the end, there is no reasoning with people who are blinded by fear of change and therefore see conspiracies everywhere. And should people like that continue to take to arms as the rest of us work out how to balance technology and democracy in the emerging global order, well then, they'll have to be dealt with.

Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:33 pm

McTools

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 181

I guess I'm wrong, I was right untill August 10th 2009. The SPP is no longer a active initiative. I've seen them building the NAFTA super highway when I was on tour going Texas, it was the biggest road I've ever seen( http://www.fas.usda.gov/itp/Policy/nafta/nafta.asp ). I still believe that they want to do some thing like this, but most of my refferences are out the window, your right Raoul. You can check out old info on the SPP @ spp.gov, and here's the refferences from my girls paper, worth taking a look at. They're based around bildurberg, the SPP, and the Federal Reserve. If it's not making sense where this went from the NWO to the SPP, the North American Union would be our final step in intergrading into the the global unions and creating the stucture of a world government. I don't endorse these pages, think it might be worth looking at though.

2) This question is purely a thought exercise (feel free not to play): What would you prefer - the widespread obliteration of human communities around the globe, or a New World Order (however you may conceptualize that term)?

I don't like this question because to me, the new world order is the widespread obliteration of communities around the world, not an alternative to it. I understand the new world order not as shaodw governments, secret societies, but the political economic order of neoliberal globalization- what I think you understand as "integration." With economic integration into the so-called free market, there have and continue to be enclosures of commons as everything becomes penetrated by markets- bio-prospecting, dams, land privatization all disrupt the community fabric of people around the world in the name of "development." So understanding this as "the new world order," I would say that the NWO is by definition obliterating communities.

But the resistance is not as the US ultra-right militias understand it. That is to say, you don't resist the NWO by insulating yourselves in a disconnected nationalism. You analyze how this NWO works in your own community, organize alternatives to it that reclaim commons and resist further enclosures, and connect yourselves with other alternative communities around the world in a "globalization of hope."

Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:56 pm

Joshua Kane

Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 670
Location: Carlsbad, CA

Confidential wrote:

Joshua Kane wrote:

2) This question is purely a thought exercise (feel free not to play): What would you prefer - the widespread obliteration of human communities around the globe, or a New World Order (however you may conceptualize that term)?

I don't like this question because to me, the new world order is the widespread obliteration of communities around the world, not an alternative to it. I understand the new world order not as shaodw governments, secret societies, but the political economic order of neoliberal globalization- what I think you understand as "integration." With economic integration into the so-called free market, there have and continue to be enclosures of commons as everything becomes penetrated by markets- bio-prospecting, dams, land privatization all disrupt the community fabric of people around the world in the name of "development." So understanding this as "the new world order," I would say that the NWO is by definition obliterating communities.

But the resistance is not as the US ultra-right militias understand it. That is to say, you don't resist the NWO by insulating yourselves in a disconnected nationalism. You analyze how this NWO works in your own community, organize alternatives to it that reclaim commons and resist further enclosures, and connect yourselves with other alternative communities around the world in a "globalization of hope."

You have misunderstood what I have meant by integration (a minor miscommunication), but other than that I believe we are in complete agreement. Your particular description of a new world order would be an obliteration of communities. We must fight against that by organizing alternative new world orders, through engaging, through community integration (meaning simply deepening diversity and synchronization at the same time).

Man, I'll just come out and say it: I'm for world government, I'm for one world nation yo. I write, see that's how I fight, to make the next world order more humanistic.