Psychology - It would be at some level a good idea think about how to help the theists out of faith! - Atheist Nexus2015-03-03T21:09:14Zhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/psychology-it-would-be-at-some-level-a-good-idea-think-about-how?groupUrl=originsuniverselifehumankindanddarwin&commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A2085678&xg_source=activity&groupId=2182797%3AGroup%3A109911&feed=yes&xn_auth=noIt seems to me that a believe…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-12-14:2182797:Comment:21222182012-12-14T04:21:40.457ZBud the Wondererhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/BudtheWonderer
It seems to me that a believer, if he or she were starting to question their faith, would not think it a psychiatric problem. And to have the forces of psychiatric 'help' forced onto a believer, against his or her will, sounds to me to be very similar to the political abuse of psychiatry that was used in the old Soviet Union.<br />
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There is, however, a junction where religious belief and psychology (not psychiatry) intersect -- and that is in the emerging field of neurotheology. This is from…
It seems to me that a believer, if he or she were starting to question their faith, would not think it a psychiatric problem. And to have the forces of psychiatric 'help' forced onto a believer, against his or her will, sounds to me to be very similar to the political abuse of psychiatry that was used in the old Soviet Union.<br />
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There is, however, a junction where religious belief and psychology (not psychiatry) intersect -- and that is in the emerging field of neurotheology. This is from Wikipedia: "Proponents of neurotheology say there is a neurological and evolutionary basis for subjective experiences traditionally categorized as spiritual or religious." The field is beginning to probe the structures of the human brain that create the subjective feeling of religious feeling or experience. I think one positive way to d…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-25:2182797:Comment:20869192012-10-25T20:00:44.326ZTwo Cult Survivorhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/TwoCultSurvivor
<p>I think one positive way to do this is to pick apart at the little things that will be seen as challenges to their <em>understanding</em> of their faith rather than an attack on the faith itself.</p>
<p>For example, it is very possible to remain a Christian while dropping belief in an inerrant Scripture that has no contradictions. Make the case that a Bible with errors and contradictions reveals the flaws in man. Concede that it proves nothing about flaws in God. It just means man, in…</p>
<p>I think one positive way to do this is to pick apart at the little things that will be seen as challenges to their <em>understanding</em> of their faith rather than an attack on the faith itself.</p>
<p>For example, it is very possible to remain a Christian while dropping belief in an inerrant Scripture that has no contradictions. Make the case that a Bible with errors and contradictions reveals the flaws in man. Concede that it proves nothing about flaws in God. It just means man, in recording "the Word of God," did an imperfect job. Even the most ardent Christian has to admit the possibility. Then show him things that simply can't be explained away no matter how hard you try: The census at the beginning of Luke did not take place during the reign of Herod, for example. That's an indisputable fact that is impossible to reconcile with Scripture. It would be like me saying I was born during the Eisenhower Administration but before the end of World War II. Something MUST have gone wrong when the Bible was being written for that kind of dunderheaded mistake to have been made. It's not God's fault. It's the fault of the men who transcribed it.</p>
<p>Give that time to sink in. As much time as it needs. It will be argued with. It will be resisted. But in the end, it can't be disputed.</p>
<p>And once you have a Bible that CAN have errors and contradictions, then it becomes the responsibility of the reader to examine it a little more critically.</p>
<p>What happened to me was, I turned my attention to the book of Job, and I tried to see it from the perspective of everyone in the story BUT Job. You know, like his kids, who got KILLED because God wanted to win a bet with Satan. Holy Crap! How was that just? And then, in the end, to make it up to Job, got gets him new kids. WHAT?!?!?! That doesn't even work with kids and puppies! But God wants you to think that makes it all better? Only in a fairy tale is such an outcome even remotely "happily ever after." A reasonable person, upon realizing this, will recognize Job as a story, not a history. The implications of Job being an actual history would be distasteful when presented as a real thing that happened to a real human being. At some point, to protect the integrity of God, they HAVE to concede this story cannot be literal history and still be proclaiming a just God.</p>
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<p>Now you have an errant, contradictory Bible that has fables in it.</p>
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<p>Those two steps alone can take days, weeks or even a couple of years. But if they're being honest with themselves, they are inevitable.</p> Speaking of brochures, I've h…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-25:2182797:Comment:20862562012-10-25T04:38:08.854ZGrinning Cathttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/GrinningCat
<p>Speaking of brochures, I've handed out a flier that's specifically a response to anti-gay bible-thumpers showing up at LGBT pride events. Onlookers need to know there's an alternative beyond "God says this!" "No, God says <em>this</em>!" -- that morality is independent of a god premise.…</p>
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<p><a href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/uPp1xVKsh5FTLfEo0imGWm-U2sk7*ANcOoXGKKbzikkKG2NQ3i4m4ylgCoZrund49k5lY-vGTM0mPfHkYzoEnmTwsBu89J3V/1frontsmall.jpg" target="_self"><img alt="Oppressed by OBSOLETE DOGMA from a 2000-year-old book? There is a better way!" class="align-center" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/uPp1xVKsh5FTLfEo0imGWm-U2sk7*ANcOoXGKKbzikkKG2NQ3i4m4ylgCoZrund49k5lY-vGTM0mPfHkYzoEnmTwsBu89J3V/1frontsmall.jpg?width=330" width="330"></img></a></p>
<p>Speaking of brochures, I've handed out a flier that's specifically a response to anti-gay bible-thumpers showing up at LGBT pride events. Onlookers need to know there's an alternative beyond "God says this!" "No, God says <em>this</em>!" -- that morality is independent of a god premise.</p>
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<p><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/uPp1xVKsh5FTLfEo0imGWm-U2sk7*ANcOoXGKKbzikkKG2NQ3i4m4ylgCoZrund49k5lY-vGTM0mPfHkYzoEnmTwsBu89J3V/1frontsmall.jpg"><img class="align-center" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/uPp1xVKsh5FTLfEo0imGWm-U2sk7*ANcOoXGKKbzikkKG2NQ3i4m4ylgCoZrund49k5lY-vGTM0mPfHkYzoEnmTwsBu89J3V/1frontsmall.jpg?width=330" alt="Oppressed by OBSOLETE DOGMA from a 2000-year-old book? There is a better way!" width="330"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/YSEyymloksfvlVZAL3rk9vgl8iCZvuqeuTp*3rjab1yYEI3QUHbNBPIfhkS-bButxfo*ORpu3-GtUiCkutNXCTzwymPncnOI/2insidesmall.jpg"><img class="align-center" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/YSEyymloksfvlVZAL3rk9vgl8iCZvuqeuTp*3rjab1yYEI3QUHbNBPIfhkS-bButxfo*ORpu3-GtUiCkutNXCTzwymPncnOI/2insidesmall.jpg?width=721" alt="Life. / Liberty. / The pursuit of happiness. / True morality based on empathy, reason, compassion, and reality. / Living and loving openly as who you truly are." width="721"/></a><a target="_self" href="http://api.ning.com:80/files/Vr9rWbiAPDxGD*I*mzjceFxUqisSDtSIJJ41su6QNHvhn1C9Yp*uEfHlzxztC8qwNUcuXWmqdVsOuzGf2E8I1doqG8cSFOKC/3backsmall.jpg"><img class="align-center" src="http://api.ning.com:80/files/Vr9rWbiAPDxGD*I*mzjceFxUqisSDtSIJJ41su6QNHvhn1C9Yp*uEfHlzxztC8qwNUcuXWmqdVsOuzGf2E8I1doqG8cSFOKC/3backsmall.jpg?width=330" alt="You only get one life. The choice is yours. / www.jhuger.com / www.skepticsannotatedbible.com / whywontgodhealamputees.com" width="330"/></a></p>
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<p>Feel free to borrow, adapt, and improve!</p>
<p>(I've put higher-quality 300dpi versions in a <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/albums/anti-bible-thumping-flyer" target="_blank">photo album</a>.)</p> I always wrote "Zen Baptist"…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-24:2182797:Comment:20856782012-10-24T17:31:02.685ZJim DePaulohttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/carver
<p lang="en-US" align="left" xml:lang="en-US"><font face="Comic Sans MS, cursive"><font size="4">I always wrote "Zen Baptist" on my applications, however, I was never contacted by the church - small wonder their adherents are so few.</font></font></p>
<p lang="en-US" align="left" xml:lang="en-US"><font face="Comic Sans MS, cursive"><font size="4">I always wrote "Zen Baptist" on my applications, however, I was never contacted by the church - small wonder their adherents are so few.</font></font></p> Chapeau, Jim! ----as they say…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-21:2182797:Comment:20836592012-10-21T17:37:16.982ZDr. Terence Meadenhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/DrTerenceMeaden
<p>Chapeau, Jim! ----as they say in French.</p>
<p>My story from Santa onwards is the same as yours, apart from me not knowing about Robert Ingersoll at the age you did. POV upwards and upwards therefore. </p>
<p>When I applied to take entrance exams for Oxford University, there was a line on the application form asking about religion, so I wrote C of E. </p>
<p>Everyone in Britain, except me, knows that this is short for Church of England.</p>
<p>For me it meant Critic of the…</p>
<p>Chapeau, Jim! ----as they say in French.</p>
<p>My story from Santa onwards is the same as yours, apart from me not knowing about Robert Ingersoll at the age you did. POV upwards and upwards therefore. </p>
<p>When I applied to take entrance exams for Oxford University, there was a line on the application form asking about religion, so I wrote C of E. </p>
<p>Everyone in Britain, except me, knows that this is short for Church of England.</p>
<p>For me it meant Critic of the Establishment. </p>
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<p> </p> It was the Santa Claus myth t…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-21:2182797:Comment:20837582012-10-21T17:23:00.736ZJim DePaulohttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/carver
<p>It was the Santa Claus myth that initially brought me to Atheism – although, at the time I had no idea that I was on the road. I figured out the Santa myth a couple of years before my parents “told me”. I didn't want them to know that I knew – my reasoning being, when they knew I knew the loot would cease to appear under the tree Xmas morning (a sort of metaphor for religion – if you don't believe you get NO rewards.)<br></br> Any hoo, I then just assumed that god/jebus/bible were just stories…</p>
<p>It was the Santa Claus myth that initially brought me to Atheism – although, at the time I had no idea that I was on the road. I figured out the Santa myth a couple of years before my parents “told me”. I didn't want them to know that I knew – my reasoning being, when they knew I knew the loot would cease to appear under the tree Xmas morning (a sort of metaphor for religion – if you don't believe you get NO rewards.)<br/> Any hoo, I then just assumed that god/jebus/bible were just stories like the Santa story, but it was for grown ups. It was down hill or up hill, depending on your POV, from there.<br/> When I was 16, my cousin and I got hold of the complete works of Robert Ingersoll – which we read – his words put all the ducks in a row for me and the complete insanity of religious belief coalesced in my gray matter.</p> Well said! Wish I'd written…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-21:2182797:Comment:20835252012-10-21T02:42:00.389ZAlan Perlmanhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/AlanPerlman
<p>Well said! Wish I'd written that. Or how about (plot for a novel) God's so pissed at what people have done in his name that he starts killing off believers with a mysterious plague (just as in the Bible), leaving only us to enjoy the world without killing each other over sompeting myths?</p>
<p>Well said! Wish I'd written that. Or how about (plot for a novel) God's so pissed at what people have done in his name that he starts killing off believers with a mysterious plague (just as in the Bible), leaving only us to enjoy the world without killing each other over sompeting myths?</p> It would definitely be a good…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-21:2182797:Comment:20835222012-10-21T02:39:13.507ZAlan Perlmanhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/AlanPerlman
<p>It would definitely be a good idea, but I have no idea where to start. It would be great if some world political figures were secular/atheistic, because then people, being generally sheep (see 23rd Psalm), would follow them.</p>
<p>It would definitely be a good idea, but I have no idea where to start. It would be great if some world political figures were secular/atheistic, because then people, being generally sheep (see 23rd Psalm), would follow them.</p> 'Job' arent everything...'job…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-19:2182797:Comment:20819102012-10-19T04:48:53.114ZJim R S Björklundhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/JimRSBjoerklund
<p><strong>'Job' arent everything...'job' isnt the purpose of life. 'Job' are not our saviour...ok?</strong></p>
<p><strong>'Job' arent everything...'job' isnt the purpose of life. 'Job' are not our saviour...ok?</strong></p> Its like with drug addicts. G…tag:www.atheistnexus.org,2012-10-19:2182797:Comment:20821452012-10-19T04:43:35.237ZJim R S Björklundhttp://www.atheistnexus.org/profile/JimRSBjoerklund
<p>Its like with drug addicts. <strong>Genuin love and support.</strong> (seem to be impossible)</p>
<p>Its like with drug addicts. <strong>Genuin love and support.</strong> (seem to be impossible)</p>