Norman B. Ivans might want to think twice before he tries to land another airplane at the North Las Vegas Airport during the first week of January - if the Federal Aviation Administration lets him fly at all. Why? He crashed two of the same model of aircraft at the airport, exactly 363 days apart. (www.lvrj.com) 更多...

Sorry to pollute your personal forum. The post was put in here because it is very unusual for someone to wreck 2 airplanes of the same model, at the same airport, landing, in less than a year. Nothing technical about it (yet). I might add that some of the Flightaware people make spurious comments from time to time too. Maybe you should bust their balls.

Yours was not the issue and if one reads the guy was an accident waiting to happen again it looks like. Some of the other comments that are made I stand behind. Yours again is fine they are an AC that requires one flys it by the book or this is what happens.

You are probably right sir, about the Aerostar being more plane than his skills will handle. My point is that this is a forum, not a club. I read plenty I may disagree with or not like, but I'm not so snobbish as to suggest the writer be banished.

Although interesting, relevant, and completely squawk-worthy, an incident at the same airport is not entirely unbelievable since North Las Vegas could have been his home base and therefore more than half of his flights could very well have that as a destination. And being the same model is also not really so strange since pilots tend to keep flying models that they are already familiar with.

I'm sure there are statistics to support the existence of people that crash their Honda Civic within a mile of their home (1 in 3 car accidents are that close), get a similar replacement for their beloved Honda Civic, and then are unlucky enough to get in another accident similarly close to home soon after.

The license to drive and the license to fly are two different animals. I'll bet most pilots never prong a plane and I have never personally known any to do it twice in a year. I know plenty of people who wreck a car every year. Just my sense that consistent repeat offenders in either category probably have an issue. Lol

Oddly enough a gentleman in El Dorado Arkansas crashed two Aerostars in one year in el Dorado. Both were aborted takeoff attempts as I recall. Aerostars need about 2000 feet of runway before they rotate...makes any takeoff on a short field problematic.

I think it's time to put the aerostar in the hangar and get something a little less touchy. Maybe a baron or something? If you have the money to get an aerostar and crash it twice, then maybe you can afford a simulator for practice. I know sometimes we all do dumb stuff in an airplane and if you are lucky you survive it and get a chance to learn from it. Twice in the same year, same plane, same airport. Something has to change.

It would appear that Peter F. Hartman, Esq. is recommending censorship. Personally, I don't care a whit if you are or are not clear on how the "REAL aviation community, or this form of communication, benefits from the spurious comments of people who clearly are not pilots - simply "wanna-be's" who feel a need to intrude with silly comments into a technical area beyond their comprehension." This is a forum, a place where people are free to state their ideas, their opinions, and their knowledge concerning various issues. Stop being such a snob, Mr. Hartman, Esq. It's people like you who give lawyers a bad rep.

Donna - may I suggest you work on your reading comprehension. At least you are being honest - you admit that you dont care much for what us REAL aviators think.

First, it would be nice if you would demonstrate your ability to understand what you are reading, by spelling my name correctly. No big deal there - just one way to show you actually understand what you are reading.

Secondly, think about the concept of good manners. Yes, good manners could suggest self-censorship, if you want to put it that way.

Let me give you an example to see if that will help you understand the concept of "good manners", or "self-censorship" if that will help you grasp the concept better.

I do not happen to be a homosexual. There are many forums for homosexuals. Not being one, I am not competent to comment on what they do or how they do it. Therefore, should I blunder into one of their forums, good manners would DEMAND that I keep my totally irrelevant opinions to myself.

Here's another example. Not being an A & P or IA for an airline, it would be bad manners for me to barge into one of their forums, and comment on what I am not competent to comment on there, just because I feel like "venting" about some real or imagined grievance or jealousy regarding the airline business.

I think you are confused about the purpose of some forums. Like many younger people today, you may not have been trained in good manners or critical analysis.

I was and I have. Therefore, since I am not checked out in Aerostarts - in fact, have never even ridden in one,I am aware that any comment about them or their flight characteristics by me, would be wasting the time of people with a legit. interest in their operation.

Forums can be used as a garbage dump for people who need attention. Or, others, like this one, inform you when you sign in, should you (1) choose to read their purpose and (2) comprehend its significance, and your own relevance to that).

I would suspect virtually ALL of the LEGITIMATE aviators like me, welcome people who are "aviation enthusiasts" but for some reason or no reason cannot be aviators. You would serve yourselves and us well, if you would remember an old expression "make sure your brain is in gear before engaging your mouth".

I'll make this brief. It is your reading comprehension that is lacking Mr. HartmanN. I said no such thing - I was quoting (as the quotation marks indicate) your comments. I'm afraid your ego is far larger than your good manners or your ability to talk to people rather than down to people. Respond or don't - I'm finished with you.

great ! we are making some progress (well, at least she got my name spelled right ! maybe she has learned something ?). ( why am I suspicious that this lovely lady's world is about as relevant to aviation, as my world is to her...!

I just want to point out that only one of your comments doesn't have negative votes. Maybe this is a good indication that people on this site like it the way it is. As I said before, if you don't like it, you don't have to look at our comments.

Yes, Mister Lillie - i have no doubt that you are correct. No question that the "wanna-be' / "hanger's on" who WISH they could be involved in driving airplanes around, enjoy their brief connection to REAL aviation and REAL aviators.

I can't imagine anyone objecting to the general public coming in here to see what they can learn about REAL aviation.

At the risk of repeating myself, I also cannot imagine how one who is not informed on any given subject matter, dosnt feel embarssement about sticking their nose into an area where they have no competence.

I am not blaming you personally or any other individual personally for turning what is clearly a narrow-interest technical forum into a general garbage dump for all of you with frustrations over the fact that for whatever reason, you could not be a part of the aviator community.

Clearly, "going where you are not wanted" is not an embarssement in today's culture. I was taught that if you "cant say something nice, or relevant, dont say anything".

As I have noted earlier, I have never even RIDDEN in an Aerostar, much less be "signed off" to be aircraft commander in one. So you may have noticed I did not comment on this North Las Vegas Airport incident.

Over the years (in both cases BEFORE the Internet came to be) I have wrecked airplanes. I was judged by my peers and I accept that. Because my peers had RELEVANT info. for me.

Perhaps you can imagine how I would have reacted if someone who was not informed in this narrow technical area we call aviating, had volunteered his ignorance of things aviation by commenting.

Or maybe you cant - because maybe our culture has changed so much, that people these days are so self-centered they simply have no way to be aware of the difference between general chat rooms where the public can shoot its ignorant mouth off, and forums that are created for various narrow technical groups.

Bottom line - hopefully, you and those like you will take a deep breath and realize your opinions, should you wish to offer them, where you are in an area (and a forum) where you have some background and competence, would be welcome.

Having an interest in aviation no more means one wants to be a pilot than having an interest in fish means one wants to go fishing. Your petty, egomaniacal arguments make no sense and have no place in here. Shoo! Scat!

This individual and her "buddies" believe they can barge into what is clearly labled as a AVIATOR's technical forum FOR AVIATORS, and have a right to babble whatever comes into their uninformed minds, not only without being critisized, but tell us AVIATORS that WE should get out of our own chat room.

At least Donna is being honest in that she has no interest in being an AVIATOR, and admits that to her, the discussion by AVIATORS make no sense to her. There are plenty of "general discussion" chat rooms for people who need to "vent". Please use them.

Again, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to restrict your ability to come in here and LEARN.

If and when you feel you can contribute something based on your competency in this particular technical area, I am sure other LEGIT aviators and myself would be delighted to see what we could learn from you.

One thing for certain - this young woman's attitude tells us why the divorce rate has gone up so fast amongst the younger generation - imagine being married to THAT !

I'd dearly love to know where you obtained your crystal ball. You know, the one which allows you to know the ages of people, and the one which allows you to know what people actually "wannabe" in life. And, oh by the way, oooops, you've made that monumental mistake of a misspelled word yet again, oh my, your face must be red! Oh yes, another "by the way" Carnac the Magnificent, I've had a life-long career in aerospace, am properly retired, happily married to a man who adores me and whom I adore, and together we have three lovely grown children and five grandchildren. My "attitude" as you so glibly call it only rears itself when I have the misfortune to stumble across someone like you who insists on displaying grossly poor manners and who resorts to calling people names like a small schoolboy or girl. Your arrogance may work in some places (although I doubt it) but it certainly doesn't work here. Amen and good bye.

Who stated or even implied that flightaware's forum is an " aviator's technical forum for aviators?You show us where the website's mission statement states that..Ya know "Esquare"...(Yes spelling is incorrect to point out my now utter disdain for your pompous arrogance) I believe you are a nobody who discovered this forum and decided to make some posts to see how much of a rise you could get out of people.Until you entered the forum ,this was a peaceful place where people of all levels of interest and expertise in the field of aviation came to exchange ideas and conversation.YOU have made this place somewhat less of what it was.If you think I am wrong, then why is it your posts are getting "ejected" on a frequent basis?And now you will reply with another one of your smug pseudo sophisticated replies while trying to appear as though you are "above the fray"..Don't bother. I have your number.

Still waiting on the clarification I requested.You know, technical forum for aviators and all that good stuff.BTW, "HAZARD: is the correct spelling.An IFR rating requires a high awareness of detail and skill...Know what I mean?Lastly, who is "We"?...

I MAY owe you and your "buddies" an apology - you apparently remain under the impression this is some kind of general meeting place for people to babble out whatever is on their minds.

I am not a computer expert, so I have no way of knowing if it is POSSIBLE for you folks to get into these threads without going thru the "MAIN ENTRANCE" of FLIGHT AWARE.

On the off chance that you are NOT what I think you are, and really dont know - let me explain. FLIGHT AWARE is a service created BY flight crew FOR flight crew. The services it offers relate to the needs and interests of flight crew. I am not clear how fuel prices, FBO facilities, flight planning, are relevant to the needs of the non-flying general public. Nor would the blabbering of the non flying public have relevance to flight crew.

With this exception. Included amongst its many services of interest to flight crew, is their "tracking" program. Yes, if you are a "wanna be" who likes to SAY you "fly" (translation, you share a very human trait down thru the eons, of being fascinated by the concept of flight) but in fact RIDE in BACK of someone ELSE's airplane as a PASSENGER, then that one service out of the many offered here, may be of interest, even of value to you, again, if you are going to RIDE in BACK of someone ELSE's airplane as a passenger.

With this cautionary note - I suppose, but do not know for sure, that the flight tracking service of this "site" may be fairly accurate as to Part 121 (reg. sched. airline ops). I know from personal experience it is not accurate for Part 135 (charter) or Part 91 (general aviation).

For example, most of the time when I can, I will take off VFR to save time, and tell a ATC that I want to go "FLIGHT FOLLOWING", and then need a 'pop up" IFR clearance for the balance of my operation. This rarely shows up on the flight trackers.

Hopefully, this information will educate the "Donna" and the "Ken" types that while nobody would question their right or interest to OBSERVE what people who "drive" airplanes do, their presence would be more pleasant if they'd show a little manners and keep still unless their technical background makes what they want to post relevant.

Ok..This is my final response to you. First, you are arguing just to argue.Now, a little common sense to take along with you on your journey.If this site was a venue dedicated to those only in the aviation business, whether it be flight crew, maintenance, ATC or other aviation specific occupation, the terms and conditions of use for this site would state that very clearly.Such statements in the terms of use are ABSENT. Therefore, your little power play here is all in your mind.I and many other not directly tied to the aviation business will continue to post here as long as we like and as long as the site administrators allow it.If you feel it necessary to find a site( such as the AOPA site) to mingle with "aviators only", please do so..Immediately if not sooner.Quite frankly, I have never seen such arrogance by an individual in a public forum.Until such time as the administrators of this site switch it to a "private" site, your attempts to run off other with whom you feel uncomfortable and may even feel are beneath your station are futile. Oh, learn how to spell and use proper sentence construction. How one writes is an open window to their level of education and intelligence.

Mr Lillie:I am pleased to learn of your efforts and plans to join the aviation community.

Let me give you a note of caution. Aviation is and must be a continual learning experience. In which PRECISION OF SPEECH AND PRECISION OF THOUGHT IS VITAL TO SAVETY.

Thruout your life in aviation, you MUST have the right attitude, which is to try and THINK as clearly as you can, and try and avoid the very human trait of thinking that because you have arrived at any given level, you dont need to continue having an open mind.

We have an expression in aviation " AVIATION IS NOT INHERENTLY DANGEROUS. BUT TO AN EVEN GREATER DEGREE OF THE SEA, IT IS TERRIBLY UNFORGIVING OF ANY CARELESS OR NEGLECT".

Let me give you an example of "precision in thought and speech".

You are working towards a PPL ? I presume that means PRIVATE PILOT LICENSE. You already have a SPL? Suggest you aquaint yourself with 14 CFR Part 61.23.

I hope you dont think you have a Student Pilot LICENSE. There is no such thing. Suggest you buy and study carefully the current FAR'S AIM. In it, aviation regulations are explained - pay particular attention to 14 CFR Part 61.23 before you go telling folks you have a Student Pilot LICENSE.

You may have a Student Pilot CERTIFICATE. It is NOT a license, and the distinction, like so much in aviation, is important. Your CERTIFICATE, again, not a license, enables you to "log" time TOWARDS a pilot's LICENSE.

It is my personal prejudice that amongst aviators, you find a much higher per-centage of folks who recognize the importance of precision-of-thought. And thus a much lower per-centage of people walking around blabbering whatever comes into their heads, regardless of the accuracy or relevance. An example of how vital ? When you are accepting a "clearance".

This particular "thread" was about some kind of misfortune with a Piper Aerostar. If and when you have been signed off to command one, I am sure your fellow aviators will look foward to your input on this subject.

I, in fact, did not comment at all on the technical capabilities/hindrances of this aircraft; I only pointed out that I did not like the appearance of the airplane in reply to someone's comment. Don't worry, I don't plan on getting signed off in an Aerostar, unless I have to. Believe me, I enjoy the continuity of learning in aviation, and know that "a good pilot is always learning." I apologize for the fact that I misrepresented the fact that I have a student pilot CERTIFICATE. Don't fret I own a copy of the 2013 FAR/AIM.

Mr Lillie - sounds to me you have an open mind, and will be a credit to aviation - probably to everything you do in life. We all make misteaks (actually, i love steak....!) When I see an individual willing to admit a mistake, I believe they have a receptive, aware mind, that will do them credit in life.

We do disagree about the Aerostar - I dont think they are ugly - in fact, I think all airplanes have a beauty in their own way.

A suggestion - dont get discouraged if at various points in getting your "ratings", you think " I cant do that ". It is HUMAN as you reach each plateau, to think the next one is out of reach. I will never forget my disappointment in myself when I came to the conclusion I could NEVER EVER learn to land an airplane without "bouncing" it half-way to the moon ! And that IFR check-ride ? I "knew" I couldn't pass it (actually..I didn't - had to get more "dual" and take it again !

Great! Now maybe you can learn about spellcheck. Perhaps in your post to Boyd you can give a gander to how you spelled "nonsense" ... even the great Hartmann Esq. can make a spelling error. Aren't you ashamed of yourself. I'm impressed with myself how much pro bono time you've invested in me, someone who is so irrelevant to your world. Gawd you're a clown.

The operators of this forum may wish to consider some mechanism to limit these comments to legimiate flight crew. I am not clear how either the REAL aviation community, or this form of communication, benefits from the spurious comments of people who clearly are not pilots - simply "wanna-be's" who feel a need to intrude with silly comments into a technical area beyond their comprehension.

I see your point... But what is considered legitimate flight crew... Is that someone who flies the planes... Personally I feel that I have contributed another view to things that a flight crew may not perceive. Working Maintenance Control, I see a lot of different things, and from well over 20 years of airline service has given me many years of experience. By your statement, I could not be here by the new ruling.

By "legitimate flight crew" you must be referring to the Airline Transport rated pilots with thousands of hours of flight time under their belts and are led off a plane in handcuffs for being drunk before their flight.Or the pilots that have an emotional "meltdown" in the cockpit risking passengers lives. Or maybe it's the pilot who just murdered his passenger after flying his KA into a mountain in Montana, at night, in IFR conditions, while possessing only a Student Pilot Certificate. Is this the "legitimate flight crew" you are referring to sir? I am a member here and your post is moronic. I read the NTSB reports daily and it's very apparent there are a lot of "legitimate flight crews" who have no business being in a cockpit.

LOL, I agree with you. Working Maintenance Control, I have on more than one instance had a crew to call in with a problem, and I am like, what is the problem. They explain it, tell them how to do it, and they they say something similar to.. "Oh that is how it works" and these people are carrying passengers.

Oh so suddenly aviation enthusiasts and other interested parties are not permitted in your perceived "little elitist club"..Hey pal, you know what you can do with your exclusionary attitude.Think "where the sun don't shine"..Take that!I am not a pilot but I can give most regular people a run for their money in general aviation knowledge.

Thank you, Ken, for being honest - in admitting you are not flight crew.

You are right - I have an "exclusionary attitude", and the good manners to know when my comments are not competent or relevant in the many "sites" I look at.

In your case, your resentment of REAL aviation is clear - and I am sorry for you.

The fact remains you are clearly NOT qualified to command ANY aircraft, and, like me, not qualified to command an Aerostar.

The difference between us is, I have a 1) legit interest in the technical aspects of REAL aviation,because I am a participant, and 2) The good manners not bo bother my fellow aviators with comments about which I am NOT qualified to comment.

Hopefully, you will reflect on your irrelevance to this particular forum, enjoy it if you wish, but limit your comments to areas where you feel you haver REAL knowledge that is RELEVANT to the issue set forth.

Your gratiuitious comments would be more welcome and appropriate in something like U Tube, or any of the other places where people can happily "vent", without bothering those who have forums set up for a particular purpose.

First off you pompous arrogant pr!ck, I made NO comment beyond my rudimentary knowledge of aviation. Second, this is a public forum, not your little exclusive country club.If you want that type of stimulation( here's your astroglide) I suggest you stick with the AOPA forums..That is if you can stoop to their level.I have no resentment of aviation. What in Sam Hill are you babbling about?Oh yeah. I know REAL aviation. And unlike you, I am not averse to asking those with more knowledge than I, as many questions as it takes to learn. You sir, proclaim to know it all. You are the omnipotent one. I get it.Look pal, if the comments on this forum are so repulsive to you, please,your insignificant presence is required "elsewhere".

This "Ken Young" fellow's post confirms my suspicion - hopefully, the managers of this forum will show some responsibility. Failure to provide discipline will ruin this forum's intended purpose - turn it into just another TWITTER or similar places for the "wanna-be's". I see this particular "wanna-be" dosnt like our AOPA either. Enuff said.

Boyd - let me disagree with you - in your above post you note these 'wanna be's come in here and turn this into a "kid's show". The correction I would make to your post is to add the word "resentful, jealous" to describe some of the "kid's show" posters.

For example. As Furman correctly points out, we in the REAL aviation community are aware we are humans, and that amongst us are (thankfully rare) "major malfunctions". Why he felt it necessary to slam the pilot community, we dont know.

We do not know what level, if any, pilot-in-comand experience he has in Aerostars. Since I have none (although I personally have probably been "punching holes in clouds" since the old "lo-freq/amber airways" days) I felt no desire - meaning, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on an Aerostar or its operator.So I excercised basic good manners by listening to those who do have experience in Aerostars.

We have to face the fact that the younger generations are not trained in manners or logical thinking. They feel no embarssement about blabbering their jealousy and anger in this and other forums.

Unless the moderators of this forum step in and clean out those who have nothing to offer but their emotional issues, I guess we are going to continue to suffer such nonsence.

And your post is not emotional? I do not mean to be impolite, I'm just pointing out the fact that all of us experience emotions. They are occasionally reflected in comments that we make. If you do not like this forum, then you don't have to look at comments posted here. All due respect to your expertise as a pilot. I will admit I don't have near as much experience as you or others, but I and many others on this site are not "wannabes."