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actively yes. But they would have to believe in God to actively reject him. If their were someone who knew nothing of God and did not believe in him but lived a life without sin he would be saved. In practicality I don't think such a thing is possible, but theoretically it is.

actively yes. But they would have to believe in God to actively reject him. If their were someone who knew nothing of God and did not believe in him but lived a life without sin he would be saved. In practicality I don't think such a thing is possible, but theoretically it is.

Well, what if someone knows nothing of god, doesn't believe in a god, but occassionally sinned like everyone else, do they go to hell simply because they neither know of, nor believe in, so don't pray to, said god?

actively yes. But they would have to believe in God to actively reject him.

You appear to be arguing that those who call themselves atheists really do believe in God.

Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

Well, what if someone knows nothing of god, doesn't believe in a god, but occassionally sinned like everyone else, do they go to hell simply because they neither know of, nor believe in, so don't pray to, said god?

You appear to be arguing that those who call themselves atheists really do believe in God.

No. you were. You said "what if they reject God" - how can they reject something they don't believe in? I don't think an atheist will be going to hell because of the sin of rejecting something he doesn't believe in, but for the actual sins he commits.

But that can't be Sparko, that would be unjust. What you're arguing is that your god favors certain peoples over other people for no good reason. Is your god unjust?

He favors those who ask for forgiveness through his Son's sacrifice in their place. I told you that you had to believe in God to be saved but if you don't, you will be damned because of your sins.

Pure Justice would be to make all people regardless to pay for their sins. But God has Mercy on us instead. So in that manner I guess you can say it is "unjust" - I sure don't deserve to be saved. I am no better than you are. I just asked Jesus to forgive and save me.

He favors those who ask for forgiveness through his Son's sacrifice in their place. I told you that you had to believe in God to be saved but if you don't, you will be damned because of your sins.

Pure Justice would be to make all people regardless to pay for their sins. But God has Mercy on us instead. So in that manner I guess you can say it is "unjust" - I sure don't deserve to be saved. I am no better than you are. I just asked Jesus to forgive and save me.

The same unjust offer is open to you too.

You're avoiding the point Sparko. What about all those who have never heard of, therefore have never asked for, forgiveness from your god? They go to hell, right, and that, as you admit, would be unjust, no? So is your god an unjust god?

You're avoiding the point Sparko. What about all those who have never heard of, therefore have never asked for, forgiveness from your god? They go to hell, right, and that, as you admit, would be unjust, no? So is your god an unjust god?

I already answered you on this same question several times, JimL. They go to hell because they are sinners and that is JUST. The 'unjust' part is that God has mercy on those who ask him for salvation and turn their lives over to him based on Jesus' sacrifice. The reason Jesus had to die was to satisfy that justice so that God could extend mercy on to any who ask. So that way God can remain just and the sins are punished but Jesus paid the punishment instead of me. The debt owed was paid. Your debt can be paid too if you just ask. But since you won't you will just pay it yourself and justice is done.

Romans 10 talks about this very question of yours. You might want to read it. Heck read all of Romans. It lays everything out for you: mercy, justification, sanctification. Give it a try.

Romans 10:8
“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

What if an atheist requires a personal appearance? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.*

Many times when I ask someone who is an atheist or an agnostic what it would take to get them to change their mind, they tell me that God would need to appear to them. This sounds like something that makes sense on the face of it. After all, doesn't God want people to come to know Him? Why wouldn't He do this?

Unfortunately, the problems with this are legion. First off, when I encounter someone like this, they are telling me that an argument would not convince them. It would take a personal experience. Therefore, any arguments that I make are ineffective to them. Somehow, these people expect me to be open to argument at the same time, which I am.

Second, God owes us nothing if He is real. It is a presumptuous height to think God owes anyone a personal experience. God could do it, but He could just as easily strike someone with a lightning bolt. That doesn't mean that He would do it or that He should do it.

"But doesn't God want to see me saved?"

Yes. That doesn't mean that God will do anything to cater to you. It doesn't mean that God treats His existence like the answer to a question in Trivial Pursuit. God is not looking for people who will believe that He exists. He is looking for people who are willing to believe the truth about Him and want to know the truth about Him not just to answer an academic question, but because He really matters.*

If you are a wife, imagine a husband who says he loves you, but when he does so, he is just going through the motions. It doesn't really mean something to you. If you are a husband, you want your wife to want to have sex with you, but husbands don't really enjoy duty sex. They'll take it because some sex beats no sex, but what they want the most is to be wanted.

God is looking for disciples. Disciples are people who care about truth claims. They are willing to investigate. If someone is not willing to investigate, then they are not willing to be a disciple.

Also, this would ultimately lead to chaos. For one thing, it would destroy much of free-will en masse. Not only that, imagine any number of people wanting to claim something because God told them in their personal appearance. What would a dictator do with this kind of claim? We have enough denominational differences without these appearances. How many more would we have with? Would we become an even lazier culture?

"But Nick. You believe that in eternity, we will all have a personal appearance of God and this won't go on."

Right. We will also be living in a world where we do not have sinful natures. As long as we have those, we will often twist everything we can to our advantage. This includes the truth of God. We have abundant evidence of people using anything to their own advantage today. How much more so with personal appearances of God being known around the world and the fact of personal appearances not in dispute?

If you want to know if God exists, God could show Himself to you, but it's not to be expected. Granted, it has been happening to Muslims in dreams and to people like Paul, but if God isn't appearing to someone, if He is real, He has a good reason for it. It doesn't invalidate the arguments at all.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

People who “demand” that God appear to them, do not what they are asking for. And what do they think they are, to make such a demand ?