Apologies - Sanding Floorboards Again!

Hello all,
basic question is Do it myself or get in the professionals.
Have done reasearch on the web and friends and family and really get a
mixed response from
'yeah it is easy' to 'no way I tried it once and just can't be
bothered with the hassle get the professionals in mate'
We recently bought a victorian property, want to sand the front room
boards approx 4 meter by 3.2 metre room and dining room approx 4metre
by 3 metre(front room is priority)
Various professionals to do our front room are charging from around
£350 to £450 to sand, varnish and then an extra £50 to £150 to stain.
Live in SW London way (Sunbury) and found a sand hiring company called
Floor Sander Hire . com (website surprisingly is
www.floorsanderhire.com)anyone have experience of using these guys
I reckon to hire the sander and edger plus mask, varnish etc would
cost me around the £200 mark for the weekend (including VAT)
I have to admit I am DIY incompetent, I am not stupid but have a
natural lack of ability at these things.
So given the facts above I wondered if anyone could advise me.
I realise I could potentially sand two rooms in that weekend saving
more money, although things could go wrong and I don't even complete
the first room (remember I am a first timer at this)
We are worried we may muck up the staining bit if we do it ourselves,
so advice round this area would be appreciated as well.
Not asking for instructions (although any are gratefully recieved)
more any useful tips, useful companies, knowledge from experience or
advice really
Thanks in advance
Kieren
PS Sorry should have said that money is an issue for us, many many
projects for the house, very limited cash to do it, hence the dilema.
If it was around £350 for the whole sheebang I probably would go for
professionals but the figures quoted make me think

<snip>
What sort of condition is the floor in?
How uneven is it?
Do you want it absolutely flat, or will the odd bump not be a problem...
At the low end, you could try a drum sander attachment for a drill, with
a few sanding bands.
This worked well for the small bit of floor I needed to do.

Hi Kieren
We have a old Victorian property and recently sandered the kitchen.
We borrowed a hire sander (friend works in the shop!!) only had to pay for
the sandpaper thingies (£45).
To be honest we would never do this again. The dust was unbelievable, masks
on ok but not a nice environment, then some of the old nails must of been
sticking up and it knackered the sandpaper sheets. Also the floorboards
where a little curved so to go across the length was difficult, we ended up
going the wrong way and made the grain look funny.
We plan to cover it with some vinyl as it looks quite poor.
I would pay the extra £200 and get someone in to do it if I was going to do
it again.
Phil

I've done it, it isn't terribly difficult, not in the same league as
plastering or brick-laying. Only you can judge what you're capable of so I
can't promise you can breeze through it or do a good job. It certainly
wasn't at the top of my 'difficult jobs' list, but it was tedious and
finicketty.
I didn't spend £200 on doing my dining room, certainly not on hiring
the belt sander and the disc sander, but the cost varies with how much
sandpaper you use. I think it cost me just over £100 overall.
Anyway, if you do do it allocate the entire weekend, you may be able to pick
the sanders up on the friday evening. It is terribly dusty. You need to have
all preparation done in advance, that is, carpets and underlay up, grippers
up, staples removed, any
protruding or proud nails or tacks either banged in or removed ( they will
chew up your sanding belt if they are proud ), in fact, since you may remove

make sure all nails in these areas are that far down. You may want to fill
the nail holes with filler if you want a really perfect job, but don't worry
too much, a little character is better ( and easier ) than perfection. You
may also need to regap the boards if the gaps are
too large or irregular, if you are bothered. That would involve pulling up
some or all floorboards, not easy and potentially damaging. I pulled up two
and inserted card shims in the gaps and relaid them, the shims forced the
gaps to be fairly regular in width.
So, you've taken care of all this, and removed the furniture and
curtains and put dust covers on anything that's left. You're ready to go.
Get your belt and disc sander and sandpaper sheets ( and probably you'll get
a 110V transformer too ). Start sanding the floor with the belt sander and
the coarse grade paper ( I'm assuming your floor is fairly beaten up, cupped
boards etc, and you want it flat and unmarked - there is no reason you can't
leave it that way if you want, instant character, but I'm taking the worst
case ). Sand at +/- 45 degrees to the boards. Do the corners and edges with
the disc sander: try not to tilt it too far and get crescent shaped grooves
cut in the floor!. If your floor has black gunk on it around the edges, it
will clog up the sandpaper badly, consider removing most of it with
paintstripper ahead of time.
When you're satisfied you've done all you can with the coarse grade, go
to a finer grade. When the floor is level you can sand along the floorboards
instead of at 45 degrees. Keep sanding with finer grades 'til you have your
desired finish. Keep the disc sander away from central heating pipes, it
will slice them. Get in the corners and really awkward bits with a detail
sander.
When you're done and cleaned up properly, varnish as directed or apply
Danish oil or whatever your finish of choice is. I advise using a clear
quick-dry floor varnish ( if you're going down the varnish route ), but if
you want a coloured finish stain the boards first ( practise at getting an
even stain on some scrap wood frst ). Coloured varnish shows up a chip quite
noticeably. Write your weekend off!
Andy

Absolutely. The sand and finish is the easy bit - the real variable
is the condition of the floor beforehand.
Don't quote with the carpets still down, or before assessing rot.
What are the boards made of ? Nice flat softwood is good. Random
garbage isn't. You don't want to start sanding to find out that some
of the floor is chipboard !
Downstairs ? Got any rot problems ? Need to replace any boards ?
Is there a big concrete hearth base poking out ? What are you goig
to do about that ?
'30's house ? Does the lounge have the usual painted bituminous
border around a clear central space where a large non-fitted rug would
be placed ? That gooey stuff is a nightmare to sand !
Are the boards flat and evenly nailed down ?
Any past damage from careless C/H installers or sparkies ?
What are the gaps like ? How are you going to fill those ?
What are the edges like ? Big rooms are OK - sanding the area is
quick, it's doing the edge length that eats up time.
What are the skirting boards like ? Any to be replaced soon ?
What are you finishing it with ? There's only one real answer -
three coats of Rustin's floorcoat. Dead quick, but it stinks when it's
curing (full-face mask and open windows job).
How's your time ? Can you spend time punching the nails down first,
do the sanding (hire clock running) in a hurry, then take your time
over the finishing? Can you _really_ live without walking on that
floor for two days ? If you have a baby, it's time to go visit granny
for a few days.
On the whole though, go for it. It _is_ easy. Just mask up well, ear
defenders (real ones - Peltor fat domes) and inflatable anti-vibration
gloves too (try Arco). Expect for it to go wrong too and suddenly
take two days longer than expected, with or without needing extra
sander hire time.
Friends of mine have just had a £2K quote for sanding....
Mind you, I once did a floor for some other friends. Did two rooms in
a weekend, from estate agent key pick-up on Friday to removal van
appearing on the Monday. Even had to swap out floorboards in a hurry
because of unexpected rot. Took two years (!) before they even paid
me back for the hire charges. 8-(

They're rare, impossible to find and expensive. They're also not very
good. My search continues for anti-vibration gloves that really work.
having suffered RSI problems a couple of years ago, I'm rather
sensitive to this.
Air gloves are 50 quid. Gel gloves are 20. Cycling shops do cheaper
gel gloves that work pretty well (if not better) but only protect
palms, not fingers. Air gloves are better at protecting from
vibration, but you lose most finger control. I've also seen home-made
air gloves from nested vinyl gloves and gaffer tape, but they took an
assistant to put on and inflate.
I'd point you to a web URL, but Arco have switched to using that
BroadVision rubbish, so I can't. Try this - look under "specialist
hand protection"
http://www.arco.co.uk/cgi-bin/arcobvp.dll/Arco/controller?event=hierarchy&BV_SessionID=@@@@0892141888.1101434566@@@@&BV_EngineID Ìccadddehdimiicflgcefkdfggdfoo.0&open=Gloves&reset=on

I found it relatively easy in terms of skill, but hard physical work. I
managed to do almost the entire house before I broke a sheet of the coarse
stuff. The real skill is in moving the machine forward whilst lowering so
that you start sanding near the beginning of the run without leaving an
indent (or even breaking the sheet). Always sand at 45 degrees to the
boards. Get everything flat with the coarsest grain before moving up the
grades. NEVER stop the machine in contact with the boards, especially on
coarse grain. Always still be moving when lowering or raising the machine.
Use the sandpaper until it really stops working, or a large bit of grit is
gauging out the boards. Buy loads of paper on sale or return, the hire shop
will be closed on Sunday.
Also, there is much more work if the house has the Victorian black muck on
it. Boards that are just a bit old, grey and manky are an absolute delight
compared to that black muck, which clogs the paper. However, there are
various tricks to removing it. Firstly, there are ways of unclogging the
paper if it has plenty of abrasive, but is contaminated. Secondly, you can
use the edge rotary sander using a "flicking" action. Rather than have it
flat on the floor, swing it from side to side, only making contact with the
edge at the bottom of your arc. The black filth then picks itself up and
throws itself across the room as dust, rather than liquifying onto the disc.
Don't skimp on the varnish. If using varnish (and I did, as I have
children), use a top quality type with "diamond" in the name. Ronseal
Diamond Hard, or the Dulux equivalent. Close your eyes when looking at the
price tag. I got best results by rollering it on and then brushing it out.
Do loads of coats. The wood absorbs less and less each time. The first coat
will be absolutely drunk silly by the boards and the thought of going back
for more tins to do the required number of coats will make you cry. However,
by the 3rd and 4th coat, it hardly takes any at all. When this happens, this
is the time to finish.
Christian.
P.S.
Don't even think about staining the boards. It looks simply appalling.
Absolutely horrible. The sanded boards will darken with time, which looks
much better than some manky watered down paint with obvious variation and
brush marks. Use only clear satin varnish (or various oils instead if
appearance is more important than protection).

P.S. It is absolutely essential to sand between the 2nd and 3rd coats. Use a
light orbital sander (NOT the hired sander!) with finish paper (i.e. 150+).
Go over the whole lot very quickly. Rub your hand in front of and behind the
sander to feel what a difference it makes.
Christian.

People seem to have different opinions about this. My husband sands
after the first coat, once any remaining fibres are "set" in the
varnish.
You say after the 2nd and the Diamond Coat tin (in this case an old
tin, new ones might be different) says "before the last coat". What
do others do?

150+).
behind the

For floors I have just discovered a really quick and effective method.
We have a sanding pad, the type used for sanding joints when taping and
jointing, the one with the fitting which allows it to tip and turn,
which fits onto a long handle. I sanded the floors along the grain using
a method like sweeping the floor, with fine sandpaper. Much easier than
getting down on hands and knees.
The hand held pad, also meant for plaster joints, has been really useful
on the stairs too.
Holly

This really depends on the quality of the timber. Some need more
sanding than others, and a sealer before that last sanding.
If I were using varnish as a finish, then I'd use a shellac-based
sanding sealer before this last sanding pass. It dries quickly and
produces a final cure much faster than a varnish. Waiting for a
varnish to be truly ready to sand would add another day to the sander
hire, IMHO. Use a blonde shellac, because you don't want a coloured
sealer that's going to be partially sanded through and leave a blotchy
finish.
OTOH, Floorcoat doesn't like being put down over any other coating, so
I don't do this. I might spray the floor with water to raise the
grain before the last sanding, but that's about it.

I'd agree generally, but I did a 90-year old bathroom (small
hand-held belt sander, jesus) and wasn't going to stain until
I got to the part by the WC. 90 years of poor markmanship meant
I had to stain the rest of the floor or it wouldn't have been
er...uniform. And before you ask, I used wood stain...

We did the front room (two rooms knocked through) and the hall. Took
the entire weekend (finished varnishing at midnight on Sunday).
Absolutely knackering (and we're pretty fit), not the perfect finish
but not bad, and dust gets *everywhere*.
It's not desperately difficult to do but it's a long, messy, physical,
noisy, awkward job. Oh, and Ronseal Diamond Hard is a good clear
varnish if you decide to go that way.
Good luck!
Charlie

<snip>
ye gods! I'm sure that I hired a sander, edging sander, transformer and
the sanding sheets for approx £70 from Kougar hire in Isleworth about 2
years ago - that was for the weekend. Give 'em a call - they're not that
far from you.
That'd leave you £130ish to buy a decent mask with (what, £20 for a really
good one?) and get the varnish (can be expensive, around the £50 mark
perhaps).
As for the work, well it's messy and quite hard work, but not too difficult
and very rewarding when it's done.
Start off by working diagonally across the boards (to level) and then work
along them to finish. Watch out for the edger - they're quite agressive ad
if you don't go through the grits strictly then you can end up with rather
bad circular disk marks which helpfully only become really apparent when you
apply the finish! They can also go through heating pipes in a flash.
If they're pine boards and you intend to stain them then be careful - pine
is pretty hard to stain evenly over large areas - it can have a range of
absorbancies. I stained a floor down by mixing stain and danish oil, then
varnishing on top of that, but I wouldn't really recommend that method for
an area of heavy use. You've got to be careful that the stain is compatible
with the finish that you intend to protect it all with as well - best thing
if you do this is to choose your intended products and then ring the
manufacturer's technical department before buying and using them.

Lots of good advice here. Just two tips I would add.
Firstly, remember that is is hideously noisy, and that you will not
endear yourselves to your new neighbours by sanding late into the
evenings. Worth considering when you're planning whether you can
really do two rooms in a weekend. From my experience I would say that
two rooms of the size you're talking about would just about be doable
to a good standard in a weekend, but you would be pushing it a little
(and may need to add bottles of wine/boxes of chocs to the budget to
placate those next door).
Secondly (and as money is at a premium, I guess if it wasn't none of
us would be DIYing), the sale-or-return sanding sheets from the
hireshops is usually pretty expensive. Screwfix do it much cheaper
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts “588&id198
There are three grades which each come in packs of ten. I would say
you could get through ten sheets of each doing both rooms (especially
if you're as bad at spotting protruding tacks as I was). I would buy a
pack of each from Screwfix, and then only use the sale-or-return stuff
if the Screwfix supply runs out. For some reason screwfix don't supply
the discs for the edge sander as far as I know.

I found that my local independent hire shop did better prices, well under a
3rd of those of HSS, but not matching those screwfix ones. I would be
concerned whether they fitted the machine hired, though. Are all machines
the same?
The only thing was that they encouraged me to get lots of each grade, whilst
I found that about half the total that I used were the coarsest grade (24).
However, my boards were completely screwed, having black gunk overpainted by
dark green gloss paint. Don't ask.
The 24 grit got everything off, put the boards looked pretty scratched up.
It only needed a little bit of working up to the 100 grit to remove all
traces.
Christian.

I can't say categorically, but I've hired various types of sanders
from various different hire shops and they have all had 8" (200mm)
drums and have all used the same type of sheets (which I've also
bought on a mix and match basis from all over the place and never had
compatibility problems with, just financial ones ;-)

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