Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:10 amPosts: 38Location: United States of America

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:53 am

I think the documentaries and books debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories were big steps in the fight against this kind of idiocy. Does anyone know any websites, writers, or groups that discredit their ideology completely?

I'm getting real tired of this crap; secret world domination, the evils of internationalism, masonic lodges. The thing is, I can't refute everything they say point by point, but I know that it's bullshit. It's bullshit because form my experience, conspiracy theories bend whichever way you want them to.

Libertarians think globalization will lead to big government and fascism. Militia members fear a secret communist leadership that'll take away their guns. Christians believe the U.N takes orders from Satan. Neo-Nazis talk about a Jewish globalist cabal. Black militants think that Koreans are pawns of the racist American government.

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 1:53 pmPosts: 1967Location: United States of America

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:02 am

Well you never know. There could be some really freaky shit going on in the background. But as far as conspiracy theorists go, most of them are idiotic. They dont care about facts, they just care about being right.

If you want stuff debunking the 9/11 conspiracy theories, head over to James Randi's forum and look for the stickied topics on it. I don't have the url offhand, but it's like a thousand posts worth of evidence spread across three topics refuting pretty much everything the 9/11 For Truth movement spews out everyday.

Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:10 amPosts: 38Location: United States of America

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:32 am

Earthcubed wrote:

If you want stuff debunking the 9/11 conspiracy theories, head over to James Randi's forum and look for the stickied topics on it. I don't have the url offhand, but it's like a thousand posts worth of evidence spread across three topics refuting pretty much everything the 9/11 For Truth movement spews out everyday.

What comes to nine eleven, i have a better thought. Does it matter, at all? If it would so happen that it actually was the US government that did it(which i dont believe in, but dont see as impossible, not knowing anything of the worthless subject), would that be the exact proof we need to say that the US government is being immoral and unfair? No need to go with conspiracy theories for that, but of course a stupid tower is all the tragedy people care about.

_________________Falconsbane wrote:

Quote:

I stuck a penny in my mouth as a child once, I always assumed that's pretty much what a Jew would taste like.

If you want stuff debunking the 9/11 conspiracy theories, head over to James Randi's forum and look for the stickied topics on it. I don't have the url offhand, but it's like a thousand posts worth of evidence spread across three topics refuting pretty much everything the 9/11 For Truth movement spews out everyday.

Someone forwarded me this, and I thought it was good enough to hang on to.

--

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dick, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

Libertarians think globalization will lead to big government and fascism.

Well, being a Libertarian, that certainly is news to me. I think globalization is a pretty good thing, economically speaking. I'm just against world government/organizations (ie UN, EU). So your assumption seems a bit of a stretch.

Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:10 amPosts: 38Location: United States of America

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:37 pm

Darkwalker wrote:

Cosplay2003 wrote:

I

Libertarians think globalization will lead to big government and fascism.

Well, being a Libertarian, that certainly is news to me. I think globalization is a pretty good thing, economically speaking. I'm just against world government/organizations (ie UN, EU). So your assumption seems a bit of a stretch.

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

Paranoia is such a catchy thing. Once you get ahold of it, it's fun for a while trying to figure things out, but after a while one becomes less intrested and you end up not even trusting your own family which is a scary thing. It all comes down to the bomb. Thank-God for it. Maybe if humanity is stupid enough we could possibly drop it before our race just ends up becoming nothing more than a mindless consuming race of braindead idiots. I bet if great minds such as Einstein were around today they would be amazed at how we have ended up with so many little toys, gizmos, gadgets, knick-knacks, and whatnots that can do everything from downloading porn to completely butchering the English language.....oh wait I've gone off topic. Oh well. Misanthropy is much more fun and entertaining than these conspiracy nutcases who are no more than crazier than your averahe paranoid schizophrenics who all "talk to God" and have been on serious medication.

I originally encountered the following on the Bad Astronomy forum (hence the emphasis on space-related stuff), though this looks like a good place to re-post it.

A bautforum.com member, or possibly some other denizen of the Internet wrote:

The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost. For none now live outside of old peoples homes and of those who didn't serve in 'Nam, who remember it.

It began with the forging of the Great Conspiracy Theories. Three million dollars a year was taken from the Chemtrails: simple conspiracists, who imagine aircraft to be dispensing mind control agents. Seven million from the UFOs: powerful conspiracists, who can acquire a huge amount of tenuous evidence. And nine. Nine million dollars a year was taken from the JFKS, who above all seek conspiracy in the government. For within these Conspiracy Theories was bound the paranoia and will to envision a global cabal.

But they were, all of them, deceived. For another Conspiracy Theory was made. In the Land of Idaho, in the fires of a trailer park, the Dark Lord Kaysing forged in secret a Master Conspiracy Theory to control all others. And into this Conspiracy Theory, he poured his ignorance of exposure (the no stars argument), of fluid dynamics (the no crater argument) and his will to call the Apollo program a hoax.

One Conspiracy Theory to rule them all.

One by one, the intelligent lands of Middle America and England and other less important places fell to the power of the Conspiracy Theory. But there were some, who resisted.

A last alliance of astronomers and engineers marched against the armies of Kaysing and on the slopes of the Internet, they fought for the intelligence of Middle America and England and other less important places.

Victory was near. But the power of the Conspiracy Theory could not be undone. It was in this moment, when all hope had faded, that Steve Troy, captain of the UFO conspiracists, accessed the images of LPI (specifically AS16-107-17446 for debunking the C-rock argument). Kaysing, the enemy of the intelligent peoples of Middle America and England and other less important places, was defeated.

The Conspiracy Theory passed to Steve Troy, who had this one chance to destroy evil forever. But the hearts of UFO conspiracists are easily corrupted. And the Conspiracy Theory of the Apollohoax has a will of its own. It betrayed Steve Troy to his discrediting. And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.

History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and half thousand days, the Conspiracy Theory passed out of all knowledge. Until, when chance came, it ensnared a new bearer.

The Conspiracy Theory came to the creature Peterchu, who took it deep into the heart of the Misty Croxley. And there, it consumed him. The Conspiracy Theory brought to Peterchu unnaturally large ignorance. For five hundred days it poisoned his mind. And in the gloom of Peterchu's house, it waited. Darkness crept back into the woods in the back of his garden. Rumour grew of a shadow in the east. Whispers of a nameless fear. And the Conspiracy Theory of the Apollohoax perceived its time had now come. It abandoned Peterchu.

But something happened the Conspiracy Theory did not intend. It was picked up by the most unlikely creature imaginable: an internet surfer. <insert name here> of BABB. For the time will soon come, when internet surfers will shape the IQ of all...

The increased amount of conspiracy theories I believe are mostly due to American paranoia and distrust in their leaders which is partly a result of the losing battles in Iraq and Afghanistan, which have taken up large amounts of tax payer money and put the US in a ridiculous debt.

While some theories, such as a few properly written 9/11 'inside job' articles, make the reader question whether or not it actually was a conspiracy, the large majority of them are easily debunked ramblings of some paranoid dudes in their basement. For example, Nazi UFOs, Reptilian underground races, 9/11 leading to some plan to take out 80% of the population, ultra terrestrial weapons used on the towers and that Zeitgist movie that was posted here a while back.

The NWO and Big Brother theories have popped up due to a series of events, such as the recent string of taser related deaths or injuries, which causes some to believe that a new oppressive order is slowly taking over. Of course, deaths such as these happened all the time in the past, yet thanks to the absence of the internet each and every incident was not reported.

When you add to the fact that there is an increase of wiretapping used, more cameras and surveillance and the new, so called "Thought Crime Law" which has yet to be passed (I think) it is not hard to see why some believe in a New World Order. However, none of the theories I have read are well researched, compelling or even have much evidence to help their case and hence seem to be a series of distant predictions of which the chances of them happening are little.

While I find conspiracy theories interesting and have spent reasonable amounts of time reading them there are very few which actually seem to convey a plausible, second explanation to the events of which they are constructed around.

Actually, I find it rather funny that you mention comspiracy theories. On Monday a friend of mine gave me a copy of loose change 2(which, if you don't know is the conspiracy video on 9/11). I watched it an it had a valid point, but they left quite a bit of information unanswered. Honestly, I find it much easier to belive what I heard in the books and on the news.

"Libertarians think globalization will lead to big government and fascism."

if by globalization you mean reducing countries' sovereignty then they're right. Governments are already big and getting bigger and the EU more powerful year after year. A global government would mean you wouldn't be able to vote with your feet just as a big federal government mean you can't vote with your feet within a country

"Militia members fear a secret communist leadership that'll take away their guns. "

Hilary Clinton isn't secret and she's a gun hater but the best she'll be able to do is another ban on assault weapons.

(offtopic: The funny thing about the second amendment opponents is that they say the constitution reserves the right to bear arms to militias not individuals but you can bet none of them supports militias in any shape or form.)

"Christians believe the U.N takes orders from Satan."

they believe in Satan to begin with so it's not that much of a stretch to believe Satan controls the bad people and causes the bad things.

"Neo-Nazis talk about a Jewish globalist cabal."

jews don't need to be a 'cabal' to push for the similar things wherever they are, i.e. suppression of freedom of speech. The ADL wishes it could destroy the first amendment of the american constitution and I could give you examples of jewish groups all over the world working to make thought crimes out of WW2 revisionism or criticism of jews.

the ability to produce generalizations based on observations isn't as bad as you were told it is

"Black militants think that Koreans are pawns of the racist American government."

you lump all the conspiracies together as if they were all equal. I don'T know how you can honestly put the libertarian opposition to big and international government in the same bag as those who think Satan controls the UN. Sounds like you've got some issues yourself or that the conspiracists annoying you are people close to you

Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 11:10 amPosts: 38Location: United States of America

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:16 pm

Trevor wrote:

if by globalization you mean reducing countries' sovereignty then they're right. Governments are already big and getting bigger and the EU more powerful year after year. A global government would mean you wouldn't be able to vote with your feet just as a big federal government mean you can't vote with your feet within a country

Exactly how they see it. "Neo-liberalism" claims to be the opposite. But I hate libertarians and globalization people anyway

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Hilary Clinton isn't secret and she's a gun hater but the best she'll be able to do is another ban on assault weapons.

(offtopic: The funny thing about the second amendment opponents is that they say the constitution reserves the right to bear arms to militias not individuals but you can bet none of them supports militias in any shape or form.)

Sigh. Socialism means nothing to you people anymore. I'd love to hear how comrade Hillary ranks with up there with Marx and Lenin. "We're going to take things away from you for the common good". Pfft.

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they believe in Satan to begin with so it's not that much of a stretch to believe Satan controls the bad people and causes the bad things.

Like feminists. My bad, should have mentioned they were fundamentalist militant Christians.

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jews don't need to be a 'cabal' to push for the similar things wherever they are, i.e. suppression of freedom of speech. The ADL wishes it could destroy the first amendment of the american constitution and I could give you examples of jewish groups all over the world working to make thought crimes out of WW2 revisionism or criticism of jews.

Making the Holocaust a forbidden topic is counter-productive in my opinion, but that's another story. The rabid Zionism you're talking about is nothing like what comes to a stormfronter's mind.

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you lump all the conspiracies together as if they were all equal. I don'T know how you can honestly put the libertarian opposition to big and international government in the same bag as those who think Satan controls the UN.

It's undeniable they all share similar elements, so much so that it's obvious to me they have a common root. Compare the Prison Planet, Stormfront, and ForbiddenKnowledge web pages.

My personal theory is they originated on the radical racist right-wing, and got modified by various other nutcases along the way. "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" sounds eerily similar to many modern conspiracy theories. But that's just my suspicion. When I've got time one of these days, I'll hit the books to see for sure.

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Sounds like you've got some issues yourself or that the conspiracists annoying you are people close to you

I can't get through a day without someone telling me to watch Zeitgeist or to join the "Ron Paul Revolution". It actually provides some good laughs once in a while, but being exposed to self-righteous 9/11-was-an-inside-job-freemasons-want-to-take-our-tax-dollars-I'm-more-enlightened-than-you crap sooner or later makes you want to go on the offensive for once.