Dustymack wrote:I agree Tebow wasnt all that, but lets not forget some of those passes where catch-able but the team can't catch a ball. The team needs some work, and I for one don't think that Payton is going to be the missing link we needed. He will help but i don't see us making it to the SB. I guess time will tell.

Some were catchable... and were dropped. 6.5% of them were. The league average was at 6%, so MOST of the QBs in this league had the SAME problem... and still got in the mid-50s or 60s. So if you wanted to take it to the league average, it would have amounted to TWO catches during the season. Now maybe one of those might have made a difference, or maybe not.

The lowest percentage of drops came from the Patriots at about 3.5%. So even if I pretended he had the Patriots offense with the fewest dropped passes... that still puts the completion rate at 49%... STILL dead last, and the ONLY one to finish the season under 50%... and I had to spot him 3%.

It's also harder to catch a knuckleball.

There were some issues with the offense, no question. But in my opinion, it wasn't because people couldn't catch.

So yeah, I think we will see the true potential of our WRs when they have a QB that can lead them with passes rather than having to break stride, twist to catch those thrown behind them, or having to catch them off their shoe laces. Shouldn't be any excuses now. If the WRs flop now... THEN the Tebow crowd has a point.

Heard commentary from Decker earlier about Manning throwing. Seemed to like where the balls were hitting him in stride.

are we back to this receivers cant catch baloney again??? is it a coincidence that the Pats had the lowest "drop" percentage or does it maybe have something to do with Brady throwing a clean ball and getting the ball to where his receivers can actually catch the ball cleanly. i'll bet that its more Brady than the receivers making acrobatic catches every single time.

"THE" excuse will go by the wayside once the "REAL" QB starts whipping those bad boys in there

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

Still, it's amazing to think last year we started out 1-4 and seemed to be the worst team in the league. Now, suddenly some folks are saying anything less than a Super Bowl this year is unacceptable. Credit goes to EFX for turning a bottom feeder into a team better than the Pats, Steelers, Ravens, Packers, Giants...

I don't think we're better than those teams yet, but we're not looking at 1-4 around here anymore unless Manning gets injured.

NuggetsWin! wrote:Hmmm, speaking of percentages, Manning BETTER improve on his career .474 winning percentage in the playoffs. He is not here to win regular season games and make the playoffs, that is a given. He is here to take us to, and win the SB. Kind of sad how we say that someone's 46% completion rating sucks, but we are happy with a 47% winning percentage in the playoffs. The stakes have been raised, and Manning/Elway know it. They need to do everything possible to build a team around Manning that will win, because EVERY loss will be scrutinized. Manning is a monstrous upgrade over Tebow, and he will have to PROVE it at every turn. If Manning could have taken last years team to the AFC Title game (and I really believe he could have), then this years improved team needs to get to the SB. Maybe I am alone in my line of thinking, but really, for me it is SUPER BOWL or bust. No excuses!

Of course the stakes have been raised.

...and we all know what Manning's winning percentage in the playoffs are... hence the Broncos are actually looking to do more than just stand pat. (...and why that question on why a hall-of-famer needed RB help was rediculous.)

BTW, over a 10+ year career, what do you think Tim Tebow's or some other QB in the draft's win percentage would be when they have to face Roethlisberger (usually when healthy,) Brady, (both of which had complete teams,) Rivers, (when SD had a pretty good all around team) and Brees... every year. That isn't even counting some of the others on the NFC side he hasn't had to face yet, like Rodgers. ...are you going to take his 1-1 and project them over 10 years and say 50% after 10 seasons with at least 9 appearances?

EVERYONE except one team comes away with a loss. GUARANTEED. He probably would have had more wins if he was only average enough in the regular season NOT to get a bye week more often.

Who would you rather have at QB right now? (Who was available this offseason.)

With the caveat being they spend the salary savings on defense...Matt Flynn, Whoever got cut by the team Manning signed with. (kolb or Hasselbeck) trade Tebow for Blaine Gabbert. again assuming they then use the 10+ million is savings on a DT, WR and ILB

Repeat after me....The much maligned defense did not lose the Super Bowl...The blame goes to the Coaching staff and the High Flying Offense led by #18...

DenverDan wrote:Interesting. While I agree with your assessment about why ALL teams need good RBs, the irony is that all we've heard from a lot of posters over the last year is that if we just get a QB that can pass relentlessly at 60% completion rates and 300+ yard games, then the SuperBowl wins are sure to follow. And if the throwing motion of the QB is really pretty, then no one can beat us. Guess the thinking changes when the QB isn't one you hate.

I'm one of the individuals that has been consistently critical of Tebow's abilities as a passer and repeatedly cited his passing statistics, however, I have never once said that for a team to be successful the only thing that team needs is to have an excellent passer.

Point of fact, I've said balance was absolutely necessary, that while given equal defenses a good passing team will outperform a good running team, a team with good offensive balance will be superior to either.

An above average rushing team with a below average passing offense wins about 46% of the time; a team with an above average passing offense but with a below average rushing offense wins around 58% of the time, and a team with both an above average passing and rushing offense wins around 67% of the time, a la Denver Broncos 1997 and 1998. What's interesting is that these statistics ignored the defense, didn't take them into account at all.

Here are a couple of brief articles, the statistical analyses that I wanted to cite is behind pay walls, but these contain conclusions.

Not sure why Tebow needs to become part of the discussion about Denver needing another running back, two DTs, and an endless parade of other position players to offset the $96 million old guy. Guess it just goes with the territory that those who attack Tebow are the ones that keep bringing him up over and over and over and over and over.....

Still, it's amazing to think last year we started out 1-4 and seemed to be the worst team in the league. Now, suddenly some folks are saying anything less than a Super Bowl this year is unacceptable. Credit goes to EFX for turning a bottom feeder into a team better than the Pats, Steelers, Ravens, Packers, Giants...

I don't think we're better than those teams yet, but we're not looking at 1-4 around here anymore unless Manning gets injured.

5280BroncosFan wrote:I know this is a RB article, but I just read Tampa Bay signed DT Amobi Okoye to a one year deal. I'm kind of angry about not getting him. He is a productive DT. We are now relying on a broken down DT in Ty Warren who hasn't played a down for 2 seasons and whichever rookie is drafted in the first round (a lock at this point). That is very sketchy.

Sorry for the rant. Now onto the RB situation.

I think former GB RB Ryan Grant wouldn't be a bad pick-up. He's at least worth an invitation to camp. I don't think McGahee will have another great season and having another veteran will help spell him. I believe the team will draft a RB, but young RBs success are usually system-based, so I feel they need a reliable veteran if the young guys don't cut it.

Yeah... agreed on Okoye. It will be interesting to see how well that $96 million was spent on a benchwarmer who watches most of the game from the sideline because the opposing team keeps running the ball down through the gigantic holes and subpar defense that Denver is set to field this season.

It will be interesting to see what those saying that we should have saved money by going after Flynn or any of the QB's cut by another team when Seattle, Arizona, or Tennessee come in around 8-8 or worse while Manning leads us deep into the playoffs or further. Have faith This won't be the same team that we've had to watch the last 3 years

This close // to another Lombardi and there are posters who act like we went 3-13 instead if 13-3?

btw my questions are never ever rediculous. They may be sprinkled with sarcasm but never rediculous. Sorry you missed it.

Regarding Tebow my opinion is and will be that the kid will develop into a good NFL QB. May not be in the Tom Brady Class but a good QB. He is off to a good start in his second year dont you think? How many second year QBs get to the second round of the playoff after 16 starts?

Only time will tell whose opinion will be right. Of course I'd like to think that mine will pass the test....

Ice

Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security.

Spider wrote:It will be interesting to see what those saying that we should have saved money by going after Flynn or any of the QB's cut by another team when Seattle, Arizona, or Tennessee come in around 8-8 or worse while Manning leads us deep into the playoffs or further. Have faith This won't be the same team that we've had to watch the last 3 years

It will also be interesting to see what excuses you come up with if Denver doesn't go "deep into the playoffs"..... i.e. does what Manning has done 64% of the time he made it to the playoffs.... one and done.

The Broncos running game, which was pretty good despite opposing defenses not feeling threatened by the pass and putting nine men in the box, will become fantastic when other teams have to defend a passer of Manning's caliber. I think almost any competent running back (not to be confused with Knowshon Moreno) will do GREAT with Manning at the helm.

Spider wrote:It will be interesting to see what those saying that we should have saved money by going after Flynn or any of the QB's cut by another team when Seattle, Arizona, or Tennessee come in around 8-8 or worse while Manning leads us deep into the playoffs or further. Have faith This won't be the same team that we've had to watch the last 3 years

Deep into the playoff can only mean an entry into the AFC championship game. Gutsy call Carl but than again what do we have to lose. May be a used car salesman that got out smarted by a savy QB... 18 mil in the bank baby..

I say AFC championsip game or Bust!!

Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security.

littletonguy wrote:The Broncos running game, which was pretty good despite opposing defenses not feeling threatened by the pass and putting nine men in the box, will become fantastic when other teams have to defend a passer of Manning's caliber. I think almost any competent running back (not to be confused with Knowshon Moreno) will do GREAT with Manning at the helm.

Pretty sure I've already said this but what the heck...the broncos running game was pretty good because of the previous QB. Most RB yardage came out of the option spread and the QB pitched in with 600+. Not any competent RB will thrive under Manning. He wants a certain kind of back and the only one I can think of might be Jeremiah Johnson.

Repeat after me....The much maligned defense did not lose the Super Bowl...The blame goes to the Coaching staff and the High Flying Offense led by #18...

Spider wrote:It will be interesting to see what those saying that we should have saved money by going after Flynn or any of the QB's cut by another team when Seattle, Arizona, or Tennessee come in around 8-8 or worse while Manning leads us deep into the playoffs or further. Have faith This won't be the same team that we've had to watch the last 3 years

It's not about them leading their team to 8-8...it's what could the broncos record had been with one of them and spending money to make their defense better. I'd rather see them emulate Baltimore than Indy.

And if Manning leads them deep..and deep to me is the AFC Championship game, I will come on here and admit that I didn't think it would happen.

Repeat after me....The much maligned defense did not lose the Super Bowl...The blame goes to the Coaching staff and the High Flying Offense led by #18...

I think they will get their RB with the second pick. I was a little disappointed they didn't go after Tolbert in FA. Good hands and very tough to bring down. Can you imagine how valuable he would be as a dump off for Manning in the passing game?

NuggetsWin! wrote:Hmmm, speaking of percentages, Manning BETTER improve on his career .474 winning percentage in the playoffs. He is not here to win regular season games and make the playoffs, that is a given. He is here to take us to, and win the SB. Kind of sad how we say that someone's 46% completion rating sucks, but we are happy with a 47% winning percentage in the playoffs. The stakes have been raised, and Manning/Elway know it. They need to do everything possible to build a team around Manning that will win, because EVERY loss will be scrutinized. Manning is a monstrous upgrade over Tebow, and he will have to PROVE it at every turn. If Manning could have taken last years team to the AFC Title game (and I really believe he could have), then this years improved team needs to get to the SB. Maybe I am alone in my line of thinking, but really, for me it is SUPER BOWL or bust. No excuses!

Of course the stakes have been raised.

...and we all know what Manning's winning percentage in the playoffs are... hence the Broncos are actually looking to do more than just stand pat. (...and why that question on why a hall-of-famer needed RB help was rediculous.)

BTW, over a 10+ year career, what do you think Tim Tebow's or some other QB in the draft's win percentage would be when they have to face Roethlisberger (usually when healthy,) Brady, (both of which had complete teams,) Rivers, (when SD had a pretty good all around team) and Brees... every year. That isn't even counting some of the others on the NFC side he hasn't had to face yet, like Rodgers. ...are you going to take his 1-1 and project them over 10 years and say 50% after 10 seasons with at least 9 appearances?

EVERYONE except one team comes away with a loss. GUARANTEED. He probably would have had more wins if he was only average enough in the regular season NOT to get a bye week more often.

Who would you rather have at QB right now? (Who was available this offseason.)

Thrawn,

Your supposition makes little to no sense. Your projecting out a 2 year QB who would have faced top notch QB? Dont think so. I am not into hypotheticals

Secondly why would you pay a 36 year old QB with serious injuries 18 million in guarantee money the first year if you are not expecting to be in the SB. Not win the SB just play in it. Pat Bowlen didnt get to where he is at by giving money away. He said it dont care about division wins.

I'll go easy on Payton, I expect that we will reach the AFC championship game this year. Not win just get there baby. I would consider it a success. Anything else would be an 18 mil bust. Wouldn't you agree?

At the end of the day, this decision will rest on John Elway and Fox.

Hows that for a troll.

Ice

And yet only 8 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL have more than 9 playoff wins. Add 4 byes to the 9 wins (byes are the same as wins because the Colts advanced automatically to the division playoff round after finishing with one of the 2 best records in the conference). Plus, the Colts won 2 AFC Championships and a Super Bowl Championship with Peyton.

Only Brett Favre guided more teams to the playoffs in his career as a starting QB than Peyton has. He did it 12 times. Peyton has done it 11 times, along with Joe Montana. Marino is the only other NFL QB with double digit playoff appearances as a starting QB with 10.

And yet in some strange bizarre world, it is a big negative that the Colts were consistently very good under Peyton during the regular season, but only played in 2 Super Bowls?

How many teams in the NFL would have been thrilled to have enjoyed as much success as the Colts with Manning?

At the age of 36, John Elway's career playoff record was 7-7.At the age of 36, Peyton Manning's career playoff record is 9-10 (he's won 6 out of his last 10).

There are no guarantees for deep playoff success in any year with any franchise no matter the QB. For example, the Packers and Aaron Rodgers won 15 games during the regular season last year, but were 0-1 in the playoffs. Drew Brees and the 13-3 Saints won one playoff game, but lost during the same division round as the Packers. Neither played in the NFC Championship game.

I have noticed most, if not all, of those posters who are demanding Peyton immediately lead the Broncos to the AFC Championship game or even to the Super Bowl or that the move to sign him will prove to be a bust are the ones who were not surprisingly against the move in the first place. Their logic is to set the bar as high as possible in order to criticize the move at a later date.

The primary goal of any NFL franchise is to win the Super Bowl each year, but expecting automatic deep playoff success and a Super Bowl win in any year is more about wishful thinking among fans rather than a reasonable position, especially in the free agency era.

If healthy, Peyton improves the chances of the Broncos winning games, and competing for deep playoff runs and possible Super Bowls. But there are no guarantees no matter the QB.

Bottom line, the Broncos are a better team with a greater chance of regular season and playoff success than they were before they signed Peyton. In what bizarro world is that a negative?

Last edited by निब्बान on April 10th, 2012, 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well.

btw my questions are never ever rediculous. They may be sprinkled with sarcasm but never rediculous. Sorry you missed it.

Regarding Tebow my opinion is and will be that the kid will develop into a good NFL QB. May not be in the Tom Brady Class but a good QB. He is off to a good start in his second year dont you think? How many second year QBs get to the second round of the playoff after 16 starts?

Only time will tell whose opinion will be right. Of course I'd like to think that mine will pass the test....

Ice

Thats where you're mistaken. Tebow will be the kid that developes into a hall of fameunderwear salesman after being cut by the Jets. Time is already showing. ..Jets don't think much of Tim either. hes a sideshow , just like a monkey riding a dog.

littletonguy wrote:The Broncos running game, which was pretty good despite opposing defenses not feeling threatened by the pass and putting nine men in the box, will become fantastic when other teams have to defend a passer of Manning's caliber. I think almost any competent running back (not to be confused with Knowshon Moreno) will do GREAT with Manning at the helm.

There is a real world way to test your theory that Manning results in running backs performing better.... the results of Colts running backs when playing with Manning vs. the results of the same running backs without Manning. The Colts #1 running back was Brown over the last two seasons. He averaged 3.9 yards per carry when playing with Manning in 2010. And in 2011 without Manning, Brown increased his average yards per carry to 4.8. That is a monumental improvement WITHOUT Manning.

And it wasn't just Brown. The entire Colts team averaged 3.8 yards per rushing carry in 2010, but increased to 4.2 in 2011 without Manning.

The real world proves that your theory of Manning improving the results of running backs is disproven by the real world results proven by Indianapolis over the last two seasons. Manning makes running backs WORSE, not better. Check the results yourself at Pro-Football-Reference.

NuggetsWin! wrote:Hmmm, speaking of percentages, Manning BETTER improve on his career .474 winning percentage in the playoffs. He is not here to win regular season games and make the playoffs, that is a given. He is here to take us to, and win the SB. Kind of sad how we say that someone's 46% completion rating sucks, but we are happy with a 47% winning percentage in the playoffs. The stakes have been raised, and Manning/Elway know it. They need to do everything possible to build a team around Manning that will win, because EVERY loss will be scrutinized. Manning is a monstrous upgrade over Tebow, and he will have to PROVE it at every turn. If Manning could have taken last years team to the AFC Title game (and I really believe he could have), then this years improved team needs to get to the SB. Maybe I am alone in my line of thinking, but really, for me it is SUPER BOWL or bust. No excuses!

Of course the stakes have been raised.

...and we all know what Manning's winning percentage in the playoffs are... hence the Broncos are actually looking to do more than just stand pat. (...and why that question on why a hall-of-famer needed RB help was rediculous.)

BTW, over a 10+ year career, what do you think Tim Tebow's or some other QB in the draft's win percentage would be when they have to face Roethlisberger (usually when healthy,) Brady, (both of which had complete teams,) Rivers, (when SD had a pretty good all around team) and Brees... every year. That isn't even counting some of the others on the NFC side he hasn't had to face yet, like Rodgers. ...are you going to take his 1-1 and project them over 10 years and say 50% after 10 seasons with at least 9 appearances?

EVERYONE except one team comes away with a loss. GUARANTEED. He probably would have had more wins if he was only average enough in the regular season NOT to get a bye week more often.

Who would you rather have at QB right now? (Who was available this offseason.)

Thrawn,

Your supposition makes little to no sense. Your projecting out a 2 year QB who would have faced top notch QB? Dont think so. I am not into hypotheticals

Secondly why would you pay a 36 year old QB with serious injuries 18 million in guarantee money the first year if you are not expecting to be in the SB. Not win the SB just play in it. Pat Bowlen didnt get to where he is at by giving money away. He said it dont care about division wins.

I'll go easy on Payton, I expect that we will reach the AFC championship game this year. Not win just get there baby. I would consider it a success. Anything else would be an 18 mil bust. Wouldn't you agree?

At the end of the day, this decision will rest on John Elway and Fox.

Hows that for a troll.

Ice

And yet only 8 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL have more than 9 playoff wins. Add 4 byes to the 9 wins (byes are the same as wins because the Colts advanced automatically to the division playoff round after finishing with one of the 2 best records in the conference). Plus, the Colts won 2 AFC Championships and a Super Bowl Championship with Peyton.

Only Brett Favre guided more teams to the playoffs in his career as a starting QB than Peyton has. He did it 12 times. Peyton has done it 11 times, along with Joe Montana. Marino is the only other NFL QB with double digit playoff appearances as a starting QB with 10.

And yet in some strange bizarre world, it is a big negative that the Colts were consistently very good under Peyton during the regular season, but only played in 2 Super Bowls?

How many teams in the NFL would have been thrilled to have enjoyed as much success as the Colts with Manning?

At the age of 36, John Elway's career playoff record was 7-7.At the age of 36, Peyton Manning's career playoff record is 9-10 (he's won 6 out of his last 10).

There are no guarantees for deep playoff success in any year with any franchise no matter the QB. For example, the Packers and Aaron Rodgers won 15 games during the regular season last year, but were 0-1 in the playoffs. Drew Brees and the 13-3 Saints won one playoff game, but lost during the same division round as the Packers. Neither played in the NFC Championship game.

I have noticed most, if not all, of those posters who are demanding Peyton immediately lead the Broncos to the AFC Championship game or even to the Super Bowl or that the move to sign him will prove to be a bust are the ones who were not surprisingly against the move in the first place. Their logic is to set the bar as high as possible in order to criticize the move at a later date.

The primary goal of any NFL franchise is to win the Super Bowl each year, but expecting automatic deep playoff success and a Super Bowl win in any year is more about wishful thinking among fans rather than a reasonable position, especially in the free agency era.

If healthy, Peyton improves the chances of the Broncos winning games, and competing for deep playoff runs and possible Super Bowls. But there are no guarantees no matter the QB.

Bottom line, the Broncos are a better team with a greater chance of regular season and playoff success than they were before they signed Peyton. In what bizarro world is that a negative?

Right, after all this gibberish we still have a QB with a 47% success record in playoff games. 2 SB appearance 1 SB win, 7 playoff appearances with (0) wins, 2 AFC championships and 18 mil in the bank. Good QB no doubt. Elite QB, I don't think so. At the end of the day football is not about personal stats, it is about winning the big game. All else means squat. Unless you are selling yourself at the end of your career for the most $$$ you can get. Manning gets an A as an elite businessman..

Give me a Tom Brady who by the way was drafted in the 6th round of the 2000 draft and you have 3 SB wins, 5 SB appearance, 5 AFC championships and I will say that he is worth the 18 mil. A true elite QB and a bargain at 17 million with a straight neck.

Keep in mind that Pat said that he is not interested in division wins. We got that with a young rag tag QB. So minimal bar should be an appearance at the AFC championship game.

Ice

Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security.

btw my questions are never ever rediculous. They may be sprinkled with sarcasm but never rediculous. Sorry you missed it.

Regarding Tebow my opinion is and will be that the kid will develop into a good NFL QB. May not be in the Tom Brady Class but a good QB. He is off to a good start in his second year dont you think? How many second year QBs get to the second round of the playoff after 16 starts?

Only time will tell whose opinion will be right. Of course I'd like to think that mine will pass the test....

Ice

Thats where you're mistaken. Tebow will be the kid that developes into a hall of fameunderwear salesman after being cut by the Jets. Time is already showing. ..Jets don't think much of Tim either. hes a sideshow , just like a monkey riding a dog.

Maybe, but one thing is for sure the Broncos will still be out 18 million.

Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security.