my first 2 years of community college i just let fly by... with a 2.4 ( 1 F in math which i took now and got an A, calculus 1). i didnt know i wanted to become an MD.

when i transferred to a Cal State... my GPA went up to 3.68. And these are in 90% BCPM classes. i only have 2 B's and the rest A's.

my accumulative GPA is 2.799 up to now. i dont want to waste time doin a postbacc / SMP.

my MCAT practice scores are in mid 20's.

so realization = save money, only apply to home schools (CA med schools), lowest tier schools, some D.O. and caribbean.

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Yeah, with below a 3.0 and a mcat not above 30 it will be hard to get into a md program. If you have an upper 20's mcat you might be able to do DO. However, as more qualified applicants apply to do and md programs, the stats are going up, and it is getting harder to get into do programs. I had a 3.6 and a mid 20's mcat, and even though I was accepted to PCOM, they still thought that was too low.

Unless you have above a 30, a GPA of less than a 3.0 would be a hard sell at most US MD schools. DO schools would also be a stretch. I strongly suggest upping your GPA to at least a 3.0. The fact that you have a raising trend, and your BCPM have been mostly A's is great, but the <3.0 GPA is really going to hurt you.

Also, cali schools are really, really hard to get into, even as an instate resident. You have a better shot at getting into a private out of state med school than a Cali med school. How about spending a year and taking more classes? You should also try to retake the MCAT and aim for at least high 20's. Good luck in whatever you decide.

my accumulative GPA is 2.799 up to now. i dont want to waste time doin a postbacc / SMP.

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Why, what's the rush? I hate to be so blunt here, but you pretty much have no shot at a U.S. med school right now, MD or DO. You may not have much of a shot at any of the "good" Caribbean schools either. If you want to go to med school, you need to raise your MCAT score and GPA. That's pretty much all there is to it. It takes time and money (whether saved or loaned -- thanks, Sallie Mae).

So you pretty much have two choices: put in another couple of years of hard work or don't go to med school.

I'd suggest you start by saving the money that you'd be throwing away on this appication cycle and investing it in some post-bacc work. $3000 buys you a lot of university extension classes.

Why, what's the rush? I hate to be so blunt here, but you pretty much have no shot at a U.S. med school right now, MD or DO. You may not have much of a shot at any of the "good" Caribbean schools either. If you want to go to med school, you need to raise your MCAT score and GPA. That's pretty much all there is to it. It takes time and money

so realization = save money, only apply to home schools (CA med schools), lowest tier schools, some D.O. and caribbean.

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I can't speak to the DO or caribbean, but with such a low GPA and low MCAT it probably isn't worth the application money to apply to CA allopathic schools or lowest tier allo schools. Bear in mind that you can right this ship to even have a shot at allo but it is going to be a lengthy process. But a few years tends to be meaningless in a 40+ year career.

Unless you have above a 30, a GPA of less than a 3.0 would be a hard sell at most US MD schools.

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Even with above a 30 it's going to be a "hard sell". A lot of allo places screen out the sub 3.0 folks without looking at MCAT, and most places do not use a sliding scale, at least to the extent that a person with a sub 3.0 GPA can get in with a high MCAT (that is somewhat of an SDN myth). When schools are getting as many as 10,000 applications, you can bet there are many thousands of people who have both high GPA and high MCAT.

so realization = save money, only apply to home schools (CA med schools), lowest tier schools, some D.O. and caribbean.

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Unless you're leaving out a whole bunch of patents or something, with a 2.8 GPA, I wouldn't bother with any of the California schools (maybe LLU, if you have a great history of religious works).

Since you don't seem to have a real game plan for improving your MCAT, applying with a 2.8 and a mid-20's MCAT, I'd rule out allopathic. You can apply DO, but realize that osteopathic is still quite competitive and you'd be well below the average for most (all) DO programs. And from what I understand, it's also below average for the offshore schools with good track records of producing doctors who can get decent US residencies and work in the US.

You still have a shot if you were willing to take a couple of years and do a whole lot of postbac or SMP, but since you view it as a waste of time, you're kinda limiting your options here.

Dude, save your money and start looking into other careers, if you continue to insist on shooting yourself in the foot for medical school. Your current UGPA and practice MCAT scores are considerably below average for allopathic school (particularly your state schools, since you reside in CA), osteopathic schools, and even the better Caribbean medical schools. Thus, since you don't seem to want to actually improve your application, and you view doing so as a "waste" of time, you are effectively screwing yourself out of a chance to get into medical school. You can rush all you want, but you are unlikely to make it into any medical school as is. You could try applying to some of the lesser known Caribbean medical schools, but be keenly aware that their quality is highly questionable, you may not have preset third and fourth year rotations in the US, you may not be able to practice in all 50 states, and it can be an unforgiving environment (you can fail out).

If you actually come to your senses and decide that becoming a physician is what you want to to do, I agree with the advice given in numerous posts above: take the time to improve your MCAT significantly and do a post-bacc/SMP.

Unless you're leaving out a whole bunch of patents or something, with a 2.8 GPA, I wouldn't bother with any of the California schools (maybe LLU, if you have a great history of religious works).

Since you don't seem to have a real game plan for improving your MCAT, applying with a 2.8 and a mid-20's MCAT, I'd rule out allopathic. You can apply DO, but realize that osteopathic is still quite competitive and you'd be well below the average for most (all) DO programs. And from what I understand, it's also below average for the offshore schools with good track records of producing doctors who can get decent US residencies and work in the US.

You still have a shot if you were willing to take a couple of years and do a whole lot of postbac or SMP, but since you view it as a waste of time, you're kinda limiting your options here.

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OP I think you would be below average for most DO programs too. SMP way to go...

Chill out with your so-called righteousness. Are you an URM? It was an obvious joke. Expect to see a running URM punch-line everytime someone posts with low stats. Thin skin, eh?

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Its not about thin skin..but if I were to throw a joke at you about your race..Im pretty sure you or someone else of your race would take offense to it..especially when you busted your a$$ in college just for someone to undermine you..and please dont try to justify this by saying it was a joke...MANY jokes hold someone's true beliefs..

URM jokes are really getting played out..use your creativity and come up with something else..

Its not about thin skin..but if I were to throw a joke at you about your race..Im pretty sure you or someone else of your race would take offense to it..especially when you busted your a$$ in college just for someone to undermine you..and please dont try to justify this by saying it was a joke...MANY jokes hold someone's true beliefs..

URM jokes are really getting played out..use your creativity and come up with something else..

Its not about thin skin..but if I were to throw a joke at you about your race..Im pretty sure you or someone else of your race would take offense to it..especially when you busted your a$$ in college just for someone to undermine you..and please dont try to justify this by saying it was a joke...MANY jokes hold someone's true beliefs..

URM jokes are really getting played out..use your creativity and come up with something else..

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I didn't make that comment, just stating you should get used to it. It will happen frequently on pre-allo, I believe it's a running punch-line that will never die until AA is weaned into non-existence. Apparently, it's ending in Cali and Mich. I personally could care less if someone made a racial comment about me, I believe I've heard everything there is to hear, so it won't ruffle my feathers. As long as it ruffles yours, the lines will likely continue.

Its not about thin skin..but if I were to throw a joke at you about your race..Im pretty sure you or someone else of your race would take offense to it..especially when you busted your a$$ in college just for someone to undermine you..and please dont try to justify this by saying it was a joke...MANY jokes hold someone's true beliefs..

URM jokes are really getting played out..use your creativity and come up with something else..

reason for not "wasting time" is cause i dont want to spend time doing other things to improve my apps if i can just goto the carib and finish earlier.

i'm in my junior year... not senior.. so i still have a year to go before graduating in summer 08 and matriculating fall 08. so GPA will obviously be ABOVE 3.0 at the time of matriculation, but its not at the time of application.

reason for not "wasting time" is cause i dont want to spend time doing other things to improve my apps if i can just goto the carib and finish earlier.

Click to expand...

You may be being short sighted. "Just going to the caribbean" may dramatically impact your career path. Many of those schools have phenomenally high attrition, and don't do as well on boards and in placing folks into competitive residencies. So you may finish earlier but have a significantly different finish line.

Then you'll have a super strong upward trend. Retake MCAT and get a 30+ and you might have a chance. Make sure to get some great clinical experience and volunteer work and you could get in. Don't lose hope!

i'm an er tech now... n i know i can do well in med school... i got 2.4 because i didnt care... not cause i couldnt

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There is an opening at an EZ-mart across town. I can give you their number if you like?

I am sorry. That was mean. But on a more serious note, why are you in a rush to become a doctor? If you are serious about becoming a doctor, spend an extra year or two improving your stats. And to reiterate what people have already said on here, why not consider another profession in healthcare?

(Side comment--I hope your grammar is a lot better than what is presented on this forum.)

i'm an er tech now... n i know i can do well in med school... i got 2.4 because i didnt care... not cause i couldnt

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supernareg-
just curious. how old are you? i ask because i worry that you are being too short-sighted. saying you want to go to the carribean because it'll get you there faster is kind of silly, as others have pointed out. DO is a great option, but it is VERY hard to get into certain specialties from the carribean. you start out at a big disadvantage, and it's a stigma that will stay with you. see the big picture, and take your time. you might enjoy taking a few more years before med school. take some cheap evening classes at the local university (which, if nothing else, is a good way to meet cute pre-meds), get involved in some research (ask around the ER - probably some clinical research that one of the docs wants help with), enjoy not having homework and having your weekends free, and meticulously prepare for the MCAT (i'd suggest using flashcards over a period of many months). if you're as smart as you say you are, your gpa will float up and you'll do great on the mcat. if not, well, the carribean isn't going anywhere.

one last thing - mid-20s is a very respectable place to be on mcat practice tests, particularly if you haven't hit it hard yet.

i'm really thinking now.... i should cancel my MCAT and do something else, post bacc to get my GPA up, also study more for the MCAT so i can get FOR SURE above 30. i'm not confident now, and i feel SUPER HORRIBLE for letting myself down. very disappointed in myself.

what are my options? i'm most probably going to cancel my MCAT, cause i dont want to take it 2 times, it doesnt look as good as taking it once and rocking it. i REALLY dont want to continue school, but i'll do WHAT I HAVE TO. i dont want to continue school because the ONLY thing i want to study for is the MCAT, nothing else. i dont mind doing research, but is a SMP better or research for a year? which will get me in???

I'd second whats said here...try a postbac program to get your chances a bit better. If you really want to be a doctor and dont want to limit your options then an extra year or two shouldn't matter. Going south isn't generally a good idea unless you are willing to fight a very uphill battle come residency match time. And no one will believe (nor should they) that you "can" do medical school unless you get a good MCAT, so focus on doing very well on that bc even with the post bacc its going to be a reach. Look very very hard into the career implications of going outside the US for medical school before you seriously consider that as an option.

MCAT doesnt mean u can do medical school. it means you can LEARN useless things about titrations, electro chemistry, and other non-benefiting things (other than bio) and take a hard test about it.

i dont like to learn about how many moles to add to get a certain pH or how fast an electron accelerator will accelerate an electron if the voltage is 50mV from cathode to anode... i DONT CARE ABOUT USELESS things like that.

but what i DO LOVE to learn about, are hormones, body fxns, etc. things that WILL benefit me in the future.

im sure you ALL can relate, about stuff like this. i mean, who cares if a satellite orbiting earth at rate of etc, etc.... catch my drift?

i know i can do it, cause i WANT to do it. and besides, my 2.4 was in BS classes: art, theatre, philosophy, history. my 3.68 (my last year) was in the biology classes, chem, phsyics, and calc. so i know i can do it, and the MCAT which tests on useless things such as the satellite orbiting earch, is BS. sure, its used to WEED people out, and i understand and AGREE.

my point = just cause u dont do well on the MCAT cause u dont want to learn the worthless (for doctors atleast) things (such as motion, electro stuff, etc), doesnt mean after learning about the sciences (that has to do with the body, and that you WANT to learn) you'll do bad on the USMLEs.

MCAT doesnt mean u can do medical school. it means you can LEARN useless things about titrations, electro chemistry, and other non-benefiting things (other than bio) and take a hard test about it.

i dont like to learn about how many moles to add to get a certain pH or how fast an electron accelerator will accelerate an electron if the voltage is 50mV from cathode to anode... i DONT CARE ABOUT USELESS things like that.

but what i DO LOVE to learn about, are hormones, body fxns, etc. things that WILL benefit me in the future.

im sure you ALL can relate, about stuff like this. i mean, who cares if a satellite orbiting earth at rate of etc, etc.... catch my drift?

i know i can do it, cause i WANT to do it. and besides, my 2.4 was in BS classes: art, theatre, philosophy, history. my 3.68 (my last year) was in the biology classes, chem, phsyics, and calc. so i know i can do it, and the MCAT which tests on useless things such as the satellite orbiting earch, is BS. sure, its used to WEED people out, and i understand and AGREE.

my point = just cause u dont do well on the MCAT cause u dont want to learn the worthless (for doctors atleast) things (such as motion, electro stuff, etc), doesnt mean after learning about the sciences (that has to do with the body, and that you WANT to learn) you'll do bad on the USMLEs.

thats the way I am atleast.

i dont know about the rest.

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Dude, saying that MCAT isn't as important as GPA is moot unless you yourself have a high GPA. Also, you went to CAL STATE, so even getting a 4.0 doesn't look that impressive unless your MCAT is 31+

^^^ thing with that is, the system plays you, and seeing as how most people here are traditionalists as far as their response to the system is considered, they will play whatever games and jump through whatever hoops the system deems necessary. That being said you should see that med schools DEMAND you take a test over things YOU consider useless. So not caring because it didn't necessarily concern your "future" doesn't really pan out as far as excuses go.

IMO, your epiphany is more of an epipha-not. Hahah Anybody? Man, my jokes are lame.

MCAT doesnt mean u can do medical school. it means you can LEARN useless things about titrations, electro chemistry, and other non-benefiting things (other than bio) and take a hard test about it.

i dont like to learn about how many moles to add to get a certain pH or how fast an electron accelerator will accelerate an electron if the voltage is 50mV from cathode to anode... i DONT CARE ABOUT USELESS things like that.

but what i DO LOVE to learn about, are hormones, body fxns, etc. things that WILL benefit me in the future.

im sure you ALL can relate, about stuff like this. i mean, who cares if a satellite orbiting earth at rate of etc, etc.... catch my drift?

i know i can do it, cause i WANT to do it. and besides, my 2.4 was in BS classes: art, theatre, philosophy, history. my 3.68 (my last year) was in the biology classes, chem, phsyics, and calc. so i know i can do it, and the MCAT which tests on useless things such as the satellite orbiting earch, is BS. sure, its used to WEED people out, and i understand and AGREE.

my point = just cause u dont do well on the MCAT cause u dont want to learn the worthless (for doctors atleast) things (such as motion, electro stuff, etc), doesnt mean after learning about the sciences (that has to do with the body, and that you WANT to learn) you'll do bad on the USMLEs.

thats the way I am atleast.

i dont know about the rest.

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Hey Nareg,

The MCAT isn't about knowing that material and regurgitating, it is about seeing how well you can apply that information during a very nerve-wracking 8 hours (well 5 now..pssshht stupid CBT). Anyways, that test is used to see how you can think through a problem, not to determine if you know about the effects of gravity on the moon. Like everybody here said, you should do a post-bacc to get your GPA up. Have you considered taking some more classes...maybe transferring to a UC? I'm not sure if Cal-states have the same selection of upper division biology classes as do the UC's, but maybe you should look into that. Also, you should spend more time studying for the MCAT. I studied my a$$ off for two months straight...literally day and night. Some people need more time, some need less. Anyways, good luck on your decision.

MCAT doesnt mean u can do medical school. it means you can LEARN useless things about titrations, electro chemistry, and other non-benefiting things (other than bio) and take a hard test about it.

i dont like to learn about how many moles to add to get a certain pH or how fast an electron accelerator will accelerate an electron if the voltage is 50mV from cathode to anode... i DONT CARE ABOUT USELESS things like that.

but what i DO LOVE to learn about, are hormones, body fxns, etc. things that WILL benefit me in the future.

im sure you ALL can relate, about stuff like this. i mean, who cares if a satellite orbiting earth at rate of etc, etc.... catch my drift?

i know i can do it, cause i WANT to do it. and besides, my 2.4 was in BS classes: art, theatre, philosophy, history. my 3.68 (my last year) was in the biology classes, chem, phsyics, and calc. so i know i can do it, and the MCAT which tests on useless things such as the satellite orbiting earch, is BS. sure, its used to WEED people out, and i understand and AGREE.

my point = just cause u dont do well on the MCAT cause u dont want to learn the worthless (for doctors atleast) things (such as motion, electro stuff, etc), doesnt mean after learning about the sciences (that has to do with the body, and that you WANT to learn) you'll do bad on the USMLEs.

thats the way I am atleast.

i dont know about the rest.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know, MCAT material sucks. Point is the MCAT serves as a type of IQ test, and IS correlated with how well one does on the USMLE Step 1 (and hence a gauge of med school success). The point of it is everyone hates it, feels like you, yet has to do it and do well on it anyways. Fail to do that they will either question 1) your ability or 2) your motivation; that said since you haven't taken it yet don't worry if your scoring low atm, hit the books as if knowing the gravitational effects from the moon on a an object moving by at a contant velocity will either make or break your chances of getting into that field you want so much to be part of...bc know what, it does!

my point = just cause u dont do well on the MCAT cause u dont want to learn the worthless (for doctors atleast) things (such as motion, electro stuff, etc), doesnt mean after learning about the sciences (that has to do with the body, and that you WANT to learn) you'll do bad on the USMLEs.

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The correlation is not insignificant.

Donnon et al. The predictive validity of the MCAT for medical school performance and medical board licensing examinations: a meta-analysis of the published research. Acad Med. 2007 Jan;82(1):100-6

PURPOSE: To conduct a meta-analysis of published studies to determine the predictive validity of the MCAT on medical school performance and medical board licensing examinations. METHOD: The authors included all peer-reviewed published studies reporting empirical data on the relationship between MCAT scores and medical school performance or medical board licensing exam measures. Moderator variables, participant characteristics, and medical school performance/medical board licensing exam measures were extracted and reviewed separately by three reviewers using a standardized protocol. RESULTS: Medical school performance measures from 11 studies and medical board licensing examinations from 18 studies, for a total of 23 studies, were selected. A random-effects model meta-analysis of weighted effects sizes (r) resulted in (1) a predictive validity coefficient for the MCAT in the preclinical years of r = 0.39 (95% confidence interval [CI], 0.21-0.54) and on the USMLE Step 1 of r = 0.60 (95% CI, 0.50-0.67); and (2) the biological sciences subtest as the best predictor of medical school performance in the preclinical years (r = 0.32 95% CI, 0.21-0.42) and on the USMLE Step 1 (r = 0.48 95% CI, 0.41-0.54). CONCLUSIONS: The predictive validity of the MCAT ranges from small to medium for both medical school performance and medical board licensing exam measures. The medical profession is challenged to develop screening and selection criteria with improved validity that can supplement the MCAT as an important criterion for admission to medical schools.

Yeah, which is why they're looking for a better text/predictor. Still better than nothing from their perspective as grades these days are very inflated (compared to say 30 years ago). If you want to just think of it as an IQ test, well, same thing, just a way to evaluate people besides grades.

Yeah, which is why they're looking for a better text/predictor. Still better than nothing from their perspective as grades these days are very inflated (compared to say 30 years ago). If you want to just think of it as an IQ test, well, same thing, just a way to evaluate people besides grades.

Which is more important? Ask the adcomms. Also, med schools are not the only ones that look on potential and even chracter flaws. Just look at NFL.

Today, that Brady boy dropped like crazy in the draft just like Bush's popularity, sense of dignity, and common sense these days. Oh, and that JArrett guy from SC too. So just because they don't seem to have high potential means that they will necessarily suck in NFL?? Who knows?

By the way, adcomms think the same way as the NFL scouts. They see whether or not your upside, work ethic, past performances can carry you past USMLE I.

True; though I don't think you'd find anyone who could say which is more important, but plenty of adcoms will tell ya that GPA alone doesn't tell them much. But since OP hasn't the GPA, he needs a good MCAT just to get his foot in the door so he can later dazzle them with his charactor at interviews.

True; though I don't think you'd find anyone who could say which is more important, but plenty of adcoms will tell ya that GPA alone doesn't tell them much. But since OP hasn't the GPA, he needs a good MCAT just to get his foot in the door so he can later dazzle them with his charactor at interviews.

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Like I said, he went to CAL STATE;therefore, even if he had 4.0, it wouldn't have helped him that much for med school admissions, especially top 20, unless he has other things going: he is a URM, 31+ MCAT, saved homeless babies,etc

Hey Supernareg, if you get a high MCAT (35+), you could prove us wrong big time. I think many people here don't think you will make it - get a real high MCAT score. The high score on that one test can change your fortune. Think about it.

I hope that you are more motivated than ever now and that you will study your butt off for the MCAT. Please, PROVE US WRONG!

MCAT doesnt mean u can do medical school. it means you can LEARN useless things about titrations, electro chemistry, and other non-benefiting things (other than bio) and take a hard test about it.

i dont like to learn about how many moles to add to get a certain pH or how fast an electron accelerator will accelerate an electron if the voltage is 50mV from cathode to anode... i DONT CARE ABOUT USELESS things like that.

but what i DO LOVE to learn about, are hormones, body fxns, etc. things that WILL benefit me in the future.

im sure you ALL can relate, about stuff like this. i mean, who cares if a satellite orbiting earth at rate of etc, etc.... catch my drift?

i know i can do it, cause i WANT to do it. and besides, my 2.4 was in BS classes: art, theatre, philosophy, history. my 3.68 (my last year) was in the biology classes, chem, phsyics, and calc. so i know i can do it, and the MCAT which tests on useless things such as the satellite orbiting earch, is BS. sure, its used to WEED people out, and i understand and AGREE.

my point = just cause u dont do well on the MCAT cause u dont want to learn the worthless (for doctors atleast) things (such as motion, electro stuff, etc), doesnt mean after learning about the sciences (that has to do with the body, and that you WANT to learn) you'll do bad on the USMLEs.

thats the way I am atleast.

i dont know about the rest.

Click to expand...

Your manifesto for the doltish is inconsequential. You have the option of self-study in the craft of doctoring (good luck convincing your clients to compensate you for your effort--although it is done often enough) or you have the option of changing your perspective to suit the game that is afoot--the one being played not the one in your head.

You have to convince yourself of the beauty of kinetics, of molecules in motion and the like. Imagine yourself in the shoes of the creators of the equations you're using. How in the world did they do it? Not by coldly and inanely commenting on the uselessness of their education. Learn. It is your most singularly amazing opportunity. Whatever may come of it you are not the worse off unless you are delusional to begin with.

Look at the MCAT as your ability to potentially break down an obscured patient history under time pressure into its most essential elements.

Most importantly, you and I are not making the rules. Play hard or go home.

OP - I am not sure how genuine your passion is for studying medicine. I mean, not everyone comes out of college with a 4.0 (me as an example) and a 45 MCAT, so they do what is necessary to become a competitive applicant, be that spending an extra year in undergrad, doing a post-bacc/masters, or traveling with the UN and Angelina Jolie for six months in Ghana. However, you sound like you are overworking yourself by having to know some physics and chemistry. Come on, man. The human body is chemistry's masterpiece. There are a ton of other fields in healthcare that do not require you to know the gravitational pull from the moon to your toilet, so do one of them.

In life you're going to have to do things you hate. In medical school, you're going to do a lot of things you hate. So you better start making love to a graduated cylinder.

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