I had a couple of changes, it went from being a single claim to a joint claim, back to a single claim again. I kept TCO fully up dated with all events. I have 2 children which reside with me. However, as their systems can't cope with life changes, they have terminated me off their system as I still show up as having a joint claim, for which we weren't entitled to any tax credits.!?.

Also, over the past year, I have received so much paper work - which states that I DON'T have children and DIDN'T pay any childcare, so totally wrong.

I have phoned endless times, but because my case is with head office, they can't do anything as I am receiving manual payments. Because of the changes, I have received 4 different Notice to Pay with all different amounts adding up to a total around £13,500. They don't specify the dates which these amounts relate to. I am putting in a dispute and have the form (TC846) ready to send off tomorrow by recorded delivery. I am only at the start of what I can see a very long winded process. It just makes me so angry, I have calculated the figures today that I owe them about £700, not £13,500.

Does any one have any tips which I should be doing, I am now logging all the calls I make - dates & times, getting all copies off all documents that I send to them. It's so annoying that HO don't have a direct telephone number. How long am I expected to wait until this case gets resolved.?. They also say that I am not entitled to tax credits for this period 2009 - 2010, however, they are still sending me out cheques! I know that I am entitled to tax credits, as am on a low income with 2 children, but how do I go about sorting out this years claim as other wise when I get my final reward summary next year for this years claim, I will have overpaid them yet again.... and so it goes on!

Others will be along to advise, but in the meantime yep!, carry on with your dispute just like you're doing. If you haven't found our main site yet, how to dispute can be found at You must be logged in to see this link.. Just follow the dispute steps by using the navigation buttons on the left.

The lady in the story above got nowhere until she involved her MP. It might be something for you to try while HMRC react to your dispute info with the speed of a striking slug! If you do get in touch with your MP, please be sure to let us know how much they helped you (or not) - and don't forget to tell us who they are too!

Each time it changed (single to couple & then back to single) they should have terminated the claim, & issued a new award notice for the new one. If this did not happen they failed to process the change of circumstances properly.

I think the notices saying you had no children and no childcare are probably the result of some daft quirk in their computer system, which seems to do this sometimes after a change of circumstances has been processed. On the ones I've seen it doesn't really matter because the whole award notice is a nonsense and doesn't actually affect payments, but this may not be the case with yours.

Definitely go ahead with the dispute; also do a SARN (see the Disputes section TCC refers to) & ask for all paperwork, screen prints, CMA, NTC and CD of all calls.

They ought to be able to tell you whether you have any current claim. They have told you you are not entitled but they are sending you money. This obviously contradictory. However, there is a difference between not being entitled to money and not having a claim, because you can still have an open claim without having any money entitlement. If you do not have a current claim then you have a right to make a new one BUT if you do that there is some risk that they will pay you under it and go on sending you the giros as well - then you really would be overpaid!

Have they sent an award notice saying there is no entitlement? If so, you are confident it is wrong so should appeal (a different process from disputing, and one which has time limits.) If they have not sent an award notice and just told you on the phone that you have no entitlement, then tell them again what all your circumstances are. They should then be able to agree you do have an entitlement. Whether they do or not, tell them you must have an award notice. When it comes appeal if it is wrong. If they refuse to send one, you must go through the complaints process (again, different from an appeal or a dispute - ask for their leaflet on complaining.)

Thanks for the info so far, the more I look into all this the more my stomach churns.

Web - my MP is Chris Huhne

Samthe - I received a letter with regards to the 2009-2010 period, just advising me that I am no longer entitled to tax credits, this letter was dated 17.06.09. I am so ignorant here as I assumed that this just continued from 2008-2009 claim which is a shambles, as stupidly assumed that as I am still receiving manual payments that they are obviously aware that I have kids and once they rectify the 2008-2009 claim out the rest would sort it's self out.! (how wrong could I have been!)

Can I / Should I still put an appeal in for this, or is it to late, when I phoned the other day the person could see that they have not put down the children. I am so cross with myself as I have done all the changes over the telephone and now in hind sight I wish that I had used pen and paper. Also, I am having great trouble trying to track down the calls that I made to the tax credit's office as had such an awful time with the separation that I moved out for a few months, and have changed telephone companies/numbers etc, but cannot trace my old details.

I am trying to do my case history log at the moment, bit by bit, and am anxious as to what the TCO next step will be, I am so not good under stress and this is totally ruining my children's 6 weeks holiday from school, which I don't want to let it!

At what stage do you get your MP involved ?

Thanks again.

I also sent off today for copies of all my documentation (SARN) by recorded delivery.

Hi Bat2012. You ask when you should get your MP involved? I would suggest doing so from the outset, and then by the time your MP has responded and is ready to get going on your case, you may well have found out more about the causes of the overpayment and be a little clearer about HMRC's part in it and what you want him to do. Sometimes MPs need a little coaxing on this. I wouldn't expect Chris Huhne to drag his heels too much, however. I believe he is a senior Lib Dem who was a strong contender for leadership of the party, and I found this quote for you which suggests that this polician at least is prepared to work hard for you to sort out your tax credit problems:

“The charge sheet against Brown's Chancellorship includes an obsessive attempt to micro-manage, a cowardice about raising tax revenue fairly, and an inability to deliver the quality services that the taxpayer is entitled to expect….There is no better example of the third item on the charge sheet - the woeful inability to deliver - than the mess of the tax credit system. A regular feature of the advice surgeries of members of parliament is the litany of complaints from low paid workers that their tax credits have been inaccurately calculated, and some inadvertent over-payment that has long since been spent is now being clawed back by the tax authorities leaving them much worse off."

I think it's fair to say that the Lib Dems, helped no doubt by having in their ranks David Laws and, more recently, John Hemming, keen to stand up for tax credit victims, have done more than any other party to try to sort this mess out. You have certainly struck lucky there. If you relay this catalogue of disasters to Chris Huhne, tell him you are a member of Tax Credit Casualties at You must be logged in to see this link. who are more than happy to be contacted regarding our observations of how this system is failing honest families, and ask him to bring this to the attention of Stephen Timms as well as calling for an Amnesty of all non-fraudulent overpayments, I am confident he can and will help you.

With your SARN data on its way, my guess is that before long you will have a host of other information on HMRC's major bodges to relay to him.

Good luck!

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.

One thing we can all do when the next election comes is to consider carefully where we place our vote to do the most good, and whilst I would not advocate supporting the BNP or other racist and intolerant parties, voting for the person most likely to take an active role in putting right the tax credit mess could set the scene for some important changes next year. Failing this, tactical voting against the politician with the least impressive record (sorry, New Labour, but that is almost always YOU!!!) also gives a strong message to the powers that be (that hopefully won't be for much longer).

It's important that our members use their MPs not only to get justice for themselves, but to highlight the fact that there are so many of us caught in similar traps. The system has been designed in such a way that the customer is always wrong, and heavy-handed recovery tactics also serve the purpose of demoralising victims so they cannot self-organise and fight back. Ideally, every innocently-indebted family in the land would march on Downing street, tax credit bill in hand, but in George Orwell's Britain - ooops, sorry, Gordon Brown's - that's an impossibility, and let's face it, many of our newer members are wrist-slashingly depressed and hardly in the mood for active campaigning on top of their day job, caring responsibilities and trying to eke out a meagre living. They have got us by the short and curlies.

That's where MPs can come in useful, particularly now that we know that they know that we know that £9000 expenses is there just for the receipt-free taking, on top of their salaries. Fine if they sort out the £9000 or whatever other outlandish figure that we are supposed to owe the taxman - I don't have a problem with a few little perks on their part, provided it isn't one rule for them, another for us. We need to get our MPs working for us. When the miseries of our own cases are reflected again and again in other people's tax credit demands, it really is the time for us to muster up the time and courage for a little chat with our MPs about the unfairness of all this.

BTW, I haven't had a decent answer from my MP in months, but with a loyal, former backbench (when elected) Brownite who is working her way towards Ministerial status, I do have the toughest of jobs with her!

Fortunately she has a pro-TCC rival Parliamentary Candidate tipped by most to take the seat next time out, and actually a really nice person to boot. To boot... my MP out!

It's quite something, isn't it, when lifelong Labour supporters are longing for the day that the Tories get elected!!!

Perhaps a term in the wilderness might re-connect the so-called Labour party with those it purports to represent?

All in a good cause.

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.

1. Appeals have to be in within 30 days of the date on the decision notice. Any decision notice which carries a right of appeal has to state this on it. You say you received a letter. Was this in the form of an award notice? If so it almost certainly did refer to the appeal right. If it was just a letter, I don't know what they are doing - notifying you that you are not entitled is a decision which should be on an award notice. If what you got wasn't an award notice and did not refer to appeal rights then it seems to me it is not a proper decision notification.

2. You should have had a renewal form to provide them with your final details for 08-09 year? Have you had one? If so, did you complete it and return it, or do the renewal on the phone? This had a deadline of 31 July. If you have not had a renewal form you must ring them and tell them straight away. They should then ask you to provide the information they need. If you did receive a form but did not renew then your tax credits for 09-10 would stop - probably some time this month.

3. You cannot just accept you have no entitlement for 09-10. You say you were told they could see the cildren had been omitted. Did they then say they would correct this and send you an award notice with the correct details, because that is what they should have done? If they did not, you need to ring them again and ask how you are to get a correct award - do they want you to submit a new claim or are they going to correct their error and send you an award notice (which is what they should do). If necessary, ask to speak to a manager.

Samthe is right about the fact that appealable decisions should be notified.

However, it is possible they could send a letter that doesn't carry appeal rights for 2009-10 if:

1. You didn't complete your renewal forms, there would be no valid claim for 09-10 so they can stop provisional payments. 2. If 2008-2009 was terminated for some reason, before renewal forms were issued then again, if there is no valid claim for 2009-2010 it was would the decision to terminate 2008-2009 that would be appealable.

Other than that, Sam is right. Take your forms along to advice agency and they can check them for you.

The letter that I refer to advising me that I am no longer entitled to tax credits for 2009-2010 is;

(2 letters both the same 8th June & 17th June)

'Thank you for telling us about your recent change in circumstances. As a result of this change you are no longer entitled to tax credits. We will now stop paying your tax credits. If you are receiving tax credits with your pay, your emplooyer will be told to stop paying you. In the back of this letter you will find a statement of the tax credits we have paid (including any amount your eomployer has been authorised to pay) and any amount overpaid.

Claiming againIf your circumstances change or you think you are entitled to tax credits in the future, please claim again.'

I have phoned them endless times to tell them that this is all wrong. I have not officially had a renewal/award notice for 2009-2010.

I informed them at the beginning of June to tell them that my salary had decreased & that I was no longer using childcare. The above letters are just reflecting a change in these circumstances.

I did all the renewal over the telephone & checked again before the 31.07.09. But have still received nothing. I am now writing a complaint letter as am not happy at all with the service that I have received/still receiving!!

I really don't know what else to do, should I now for future reference put everything in writing rather than using the phone?

My final decision for 08-09 was on 22.06.09, I wrote a letter on 19.06.09 clearly the changes in circumstances - I received a reply back from TCO on 23.07.09 just sending them back to me as they don't normally need to see any additional documents, and that if this has not gone to the relevant department then I need to do this myself. I have only send the appeal off on 03.08.09, and am now worrying that this is too late as over 30 days.

I will try and ring those useless ***!! tomorrow and like you say Samthe speak to a manager, but it just feels that I am hitting my head against a brick wall every time. I am going back to CAB in a week's time to review my paper work, is it worth me finding a local tax office to discuss my case. I will get CAB to put me through to my MP. I have also found the calculations for what I should be entitled to for this year for child tax & for working tax using their figures minus the 39% etc & again I SHOULD be receiving help.

This pains me to going through the past as if my change in personal circumstances haven't been enough am still trying to cope with that and now I have all this to deal with.

Thank you everyone, you are all fantastic and helping me continue this fight.

Just thinking about it, when I advised TCO that I was no longer in a relationship, I never completed any paperwork (from memory), I did this over the telephone. I have just read somewhere that any new claims have to have a claim form completed?

Hi Bat2012. I am no expert, but this is my take on this, using the info contained so far in this thread:

When deciding whether to recover or waive tax credit overpayments, the new COP26 test, for decisions from 1 February 2008, involves seeing if HM Revenue and Customs has complied with its responsibilities and that claimants have complied with their responsibilities.

The main responsibilities for the claimant (from 1 February 2008) are to:o Give accurate, complete and up to date informationo Report changes in circumstances o Use the checklist to check every award noticeo Tell HMRC of errors in an award notice within 1 montho Check that amounts received agree with the award notice

HMRC’s failed responsibilities: Record and use information accuratelyDespite your keeping “TCO fully up dated with all events”, HMRC’s “systems can't cope with life changes, [and] they have terminated [you] off their system.” You are still shown as having a joint claim, despite HMRC saying you were not entitled to any tax credits!

Despite your having 2 children living with you, notices from HMRC state “that I DON'T have children and DIDN'T pay any childcare, so totally wrong.”

To plagiarise Samthe: Each time your award changed (single to couple & then back to single) they should have terminated the claim, & issued a new award notice for the new one. If this did not happen they failed to process the change of circumstances properly, failing in their responsibilities.

Correct errors notified by claimantYou say “I have phoned them endless times to tell them that this [the stopping of tax credit payments, as stated in HMRC’s letters of 8th June & 17th June” ] is all wrong. I have not officially had a renewal/award notice for 2009-2010”. Therefore HMRC has failed in its responsibility to correct any errors it makes.

You also say “I did all the renewal over the telephone & checked again before the 31.07.09. But have still received nothing.” HMRC has clearly not acted on your advice that they have made errors. They have also failed to “Record and use information accurately” if they did not properly record your renewal, and this will show when they send you the data they hold on you (if complete).

Give correct adviceHMRC has not given you any help with your dispute, since they should have pointed out that you could also appeal their decisions on your entitlement. HMRC often mislead the public and tell claimants they can’t “appeal” knowing full well that they can “dispute”, and when claimants do also have an underlying entitlement issue that they could also appeal, HMRC will not point this out to them or spend any time or resources on offering clear definitions – which they often use wrongly themselves!

HMRC seems not to have provided you with “a renewal form to provide them with your final details for 08-09 year?” and if you never received this, you would not have known you had to complete it. You cannot be held responsible for their mistakes and oversights, and they should allow you to do this retrospectively.

You evidently met all your responsibilities:

Report changes in circumstances You “kept TCO fully up dated with all events.” You “have phoned endless times”.

Use the checklist to check every award noticeTell HMRC of errors in an award notice within 1 monthCheck that amounts received agree with the award notice

This responsibilities you fulfilled to the best of your ability, based on your understanding at the time, despite “over the past year….received so much paper work.” You also “had such an awful time with the separation” that you did not need to continually audit HMRC’s shoddy work.

HMRC has also caused you lots of problems in its handling of your case:“Because my case is with head office, they can't do anything as I am receiving manual payments”.

“Because of the changes, I have received 4 different Notice to Pay with all different amounts adding up to a total around £13,500. They don't specify the dates which these amounts relate to…., I have calculated the figures today that I owe them about £700, not £13,500.”

Despite saying that “I am not entitled to tax credits for this period 2009 – 2010… they are still sending me out cheques!” which are compounding the errors.

As Samthe says, HMRC “are telling you that “you are not entitled but they are sending you money [which] is obviously contradictory” and needs to be resolved if you are not to be landed with an overpayment.

HMRC should be employing new rules on notional entitlement, which in my understanding means that they shouldn’t penalize you if their systems have been slow to react and they have had you down as a couple rather than sole claimant, and vice versa. Rather than treat you as entitled to nothing, they should have checked what your entitlement would have been had you been claiming “in the right capacity”, and if they have not done this, then – according to Labour MP Michael Jabez Foster – they are in error. You say, “I have also found the calculations for what I should be entitled to for this year for child tax & for working tax using their figures minus the 39% etc & again I SHOULD be receiving help.” HMRC should be working with you to reduce overpayment/overpayment risk, not increase it!

The stress of this “is totally ruining my children's 6 weeks holiday from school, which I don't want to let it!”

I would recommend writing a stern letter in this vein and not only sending it to HMRC, but copying the letter and sending it with a covering note to your MP, Chris Huhne. The Lib Dems have a good track record for supporting tax credit casualties, and he will surely help you kick HMRC into touch.

I agree that you should “put everything in writing rather than using the phone”. As Alan says, "a phone call isn't worth the paper it's written on"! Plus, they sting us with premium rate lines, and even recorded delivery is cheaper than a call. Keep a record of postage costs, etc. as once you are done you can insist on recouping some of your expenses. Why should we have to pay for their mistakes?

Best of luck - keep us all updated!

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.

<< I agree that you should “put everything in writing rather than using the phone”. As Alan says, "a phone call isn't worth the paper it's written on"! >>

Aye bonny lass, that was the second piece of good advice I was given when I first started in business all those years ago and it's been invaluable.

(The first bit of good advice was "Never use your own money!!")

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptiblereductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."

Ok so I have had a quick look through the mass of papers that I have received today, what a headache.

They have totally messed it up, I informed them that my joint relationship ended 09.06.09 & they should have closed this down and opened up a single claim, but I think from these notes is that they never properly opened up a single claim, therefore payments have been processed against the joint claim causing this huge overpayment which is growing every month as I am not entitled to tax credits with 2 children for this year (09-10)!!! I really can't get my head around these notes. It's really distressing me.

I also went to the CAB on Thursday & they are contacting TCO for me as well - acting as my intermediary.

I guess all I can do for now is go through my notes over and over & await to hear from TCO with regards to my appeal and dispute, or CAB with any news! My file notes don't clearly point out when & who took my children off the system.!

I think the cause of the problem is that I went back into a joint relationship for 3 weeks which I notified them of, however, the date that this was processed on their systems was the date that I notified them that I was now single again. They never ever sent me out a new renewal form/claim form to complete being single again, I completed one for the joint, but did the change to single over the telphone.

I haven't yet informed my MP of this **!! problem as am awaiting further info from TCO, I just can't think about this all the time, going over the past it's really painful, I want to be enjoying my single life with my 2 children but TCO are really stressing me out and bringing me down.

OK so I have received my mass amounts of paper work - I have received my call tapes, and guess what surprise surprise the main call has been lost!

I had to re-submit my appeal again as they lost the original on, even though I send this by recorded delivery.. So everything now is going via special recorded delivery.

I have received a response back from my appeal

'In your letter you stated that you wanted to appeal againse the TC607 notice. Unfortunately, statement of account notices do not carry the right of appeal under regulation 38 of the tax credit act 2002. This means that we will not refer the matter to the tribunal and will close our records accordingly'

Please help..... I have just phoned them again today - I am phoning them now on a weekly basis. Today I have been told that they never received my annual declaration - when I did the renewal over the phone - and even checked before the cut off date 30.07.09 to make sure they everything was ok.

I have been to the CAB today, I am now puting in a complaint & will send a copy to my MB. They are going to send me out another appeal letter, as it shows on the system that I did renew my tax credits, but they aren't taking this into consideration - so therefore END my claim. They are also sending me out another claim form.

To date they still are working on my dispute for 2008-2009!!!! (not looked at it yet)

However, the problem that I have is that I am being chased for money for the 2009-2010 period which is held against the appeal. I have to phone the dept recovery team - different to the payment team, to update them on this, what am I going to say as other wise they are going to start legal proceedings against me....

1. The issue of appeals is very confusing. Some decisions (in particular, one that an overpayment is not recoverable) cannot be appealed. It looks as if the one you submitted was one of those. However, there is a difference between appeals (which are a quasi-legal process) and disputes or complaints. I suspect that what you should have done was to submit a dispute about the decision, but can't say for sure as it is not clear exactly what you were appealing about.

2. There is nothing to stop you submitting a dispute now about the same issue as they refused an appeal on.

3. If it is the issue of paying back the 09-10 alleged overpayment, then submit a dispute and tell the debt management people you have done so. They should then stop any action until the dispute is resolved.

4. I assume your phone call CD shows that you did do the renewal before 31.7.09. If so, tell them in whatever you write (quoting the dates of your phone calls) and inform them you were given incorrect information saying they had not had it, and that it therefore appears it was not correctly recorded.

5. To get some payments back, complete the new claim form as soon as possible. They should process it and start payments without waiting to sort out the mess they have made of things up to now.

I am so stressed with my claim. I put a dispute in which they have rec'd on 11.08.09 - and I still haven't even rec'd acknowledgment of this....

I phone TC every week, 'still no update', I have put in a complaint now which they rec'd on 15.10.09 - I am to hear back about this towards the end of November, but I won't hold my breath!

I have also phoned the dept recovery team who have annoyed me as they want the money, but TC still haven't acknowledged my dispute. What else can I do?

I am waiting to hear back about my complaint & then I am going to make a surgery appt with my MP as I can't take anymore.

Do I need to request another CD of my calls from 01.09.09 - now?

Is there anything that I am NOT doing?

I haven't completed the claim form for this tax year as I have been advised that as I am still receiving giro's then I shouldn't do this, one minute they tell me to the next not, do they know what they are doing?

1. If the dispute &/or complaint have been logged (& it appears they have, as you have been told to expect a reply this month) the debt recovery people should not be chasing you. They do not recover while a dispute is ongoing.

2. By "the claim form for this tax year" do you mean the annual renewal? If so, it should have been completed by the end of July. So far as I know, there are no exceptions to this. Their normal procedure if they don't get it, is to terminate the claim & raise an overpayment. If it is the renewal you have not done, then you need to contact them to see whether it can be done now. You would have to base this on what you say you were told - i.e. that you should not do it. If this is the case, it would be a good idea to do another SARN to get the phone call records from the date your last SARN ended up to now, to give you evidence of who told you this & when.

3. You would be well justified in involving your MP now, without waiting for their response. You have already waited far too long for them.

This morning I have received a letter in relation to my complaint, (6 months later):

'I have now looked at your overpayment & considered the further information that you have now provided. I have decided that the whole amount of the overpayment (which had gone up from £13,500 to £18,000) arose because we failed to meet one or more of our responsibilities. I am sorry about this. As you have met all of your responsibilities, you do not have to pay back this overpayment & I will update our records with this decision'

They had so many technical errors on my claim that they couldn't sort this out. I had to submit a new claim form for 2010 - 2011 tax year, to which I still haven't had a response. They have received my claim form but still cannot process payment & have referred to manual payments AGAIN!!! NO......

So I win one battle and am on to the next! am so pleased that they have admitted that they are at fault.

Keep fighting people, it takes ages, but IT IS worth it. I will still continue to ring them once a week to chase up my next tax credits.

Thanks for all your help TCC I wouldn't have be able to cope without your wonderful advice.. xxx

You're also very welcome to keep popping in here to lend your suppoert to others who are New Members and don't know which way to turn - just as you yourself once were. This is how this happy band of ours grows both in numbers and in strength and it is this way that we'll get the changes made to the Tax Credits "system" that are so long overdue.

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions.

In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."