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Warre question

I know this section of the forum is for TBHs, but I've seen some Warre people lurking around in here, too. I have just finished reading Beekeeping For All and am planning to build two Warre hives for spring. I am building the standard version, not modified.

In the Warre plans, it shows the top bars as 11/32" thick. I plan on using 3/4inch thick lumber for my hive. Can I make my top bars 3/4" thick with no adverse affect? If not, what's the best way to split my 3/4" bars with a table saw? Splitting each one seperately seems like a lot of work, and my blade won't go high enough to do two at once.

I've seen top bars for sale on one of the sites that sells this type hive (you know who you are!) for $1 each. That's an extra $64 that I don't really want to spend.

Any additional advice would be appreciated! I'm buying lumber today and will start with the roof and work down. Thanks.

Re: Warre question

I know this section of the forum is for TBHs, but I've seen some Warre people lurking around in here, too...

Don't Warre hives fall under the top bar hive category? I know they're vertical, but they are a top bar design aren't they?

I'm really interested in them as well. I really like my ktbh's, but I also really like a lot of the principals and logic behind the Warre. I just can't decide if I want to get into another hive type, or to keep learning with the ktbh and get proficient there before doing more experiments with other hives.

Re: Warre question

I rip my boards down to the width and thickness dimensions before I cut them to length. That way I can run long pieces through the table saw and stack and cut them to length a bunch at a time.
If I am using 3/4" pine I rip it to 1 1/8" x 3/4" strips and then rip each of those exactly in half on the 3/4" side which gives me 5/16" x 1 1/8" top bars.

Re: Warre question

3/4" is about twice 11/32". The results will be less attachments between boxes (I would consider that a good thing but it will make less "ladders" between boxes). That's what I'd use (the 3/4").

Michael,

I am curious as to what your reasoning is for drawing that conclusion. Just to ts be sure you're understanding Steve correctly, he is referring to the thickness, or depth of the top bars. Not the width. The bars are about 1 1/8inch wide, just like typical lang fame top bars. You think the thickness of the bars would result in fewer attachments from one box to another? Just wondering if that's what you meant and if so, why? Thanks.

Re: Warre question

It is documented (and it is consistent with my experience) in all of the old bee journals (late 1800s to early 1900s), the old ABC XYZ of beekeeping (late 1800s to mid 1900s) and the old C.C. Miller books (fifty years among the bees etc.) that a thick top bar is what keeps them from connecting between boxes. A thin top bar encourages connections between boxes.

Re: Warre question

Originally Posted by Michael Bush

It is documented (and it is consistent with my experience) in all of the old bee journals (late 1800s to early 1900s), the old ABC XYZ of beekeeping (late 1800s to mid 1900s) and the old C.C. Miller books (fifty years among the bees etc.) that a thick top bar is what keeps them from connecting between boxes. A thin top bar encourages connections between boxes.

Is there a quick explanation why? Or a page number in 50 years among the bees I can look to?

Re: Warre question

I've seen 50 years among the bees as a text PDF. I suppose one could search there. It seems like Miller gave someone credit for the observation. Seems like ABC XYZ just repeated the observation, partly, I'm sure, because they had considered it in their frame design. I did an exact quote on here once, so you might find it searching beesource... I just don't have my library hand nor the time to look it up right now.

Re: Warre question

Another Warre hive question ... If the quilt is sealed in by the roof so that it isn't ventilated what does it do? Attic insulation? Seem to me that it would work more effectively at controlling condensation if it was open to the air.

Re: Warre question

Originally Posted by Zonker

Another Warre hive question ... If the quilt is sealed in by the roof so that it isn't ventilated what does it do? Attic insulation? Seem to me that it would work more effectively at controlling condensation if it was open to the air.

The quilt is covered by the roof but not "sealed in". The bees can't get up there to propolise the seams so the the moisture escapes through the seam but a lot of the heat stays.

Re: Warre question

The purpose of the quilt is both to insulate the hive and to disipate moisture. I understand what you are asking when you say that the roof "seals" the quilt, since the sawdust in the quilt is not open to direct airflow. But what you need to understand is that only a true moisture barrier like heavy paint or plastic will prevent moisture from escaping. Heat carries the moisture up and into the quilt filler, which works best if it is sawdust since sawdust is very hygroscopic (readily absorbs moisture). Once the moisture is there, it travels right through the wood as it cools and out of the hive. I have never found the sawdust in my quilts to be anything more than slightly damp. The only time there's ever any evidence of real dampness (sawdust clumping somewhat) is in the summer during the honey flow, since bees are actively dehydrating lots of nectar and the outside air is more humid. Hope this helps.

Re: Warre question

Yes, lots of people wonder this same thing. As I have stated in my previous post, there is absolutely no need for the sawdust to have direct exposure to the air. Anyone who has ever used a quilt on a beehive knows this to be true. One person on this forum told me that he "knew" that a quilt would turn into a brick of ice in the winter and kill the bees. Interesting what people "know" to be true when they've never even used something. People tell me all the time that they "Know" leaving screened bottom boards open all winter will freeze the bees. Nobody told my bees, apparently, since they've had open screened bottoms for several winters when nightime temps sometimes dip as low as -30F. Don't question it until you try it. Quilts have been used in this way or very similar ways for right around 300 years. They work.

Re: Warre question

i wonder if the quilt works different in different climates, maybe working best in cold wet or dry climates, but not as well in hot humid climates (in case someone is beekeeping in the jungle). I also wonder if you could fiddle with it seasonally to allow more venting in a humid summer. PS - thanks beez for the advise and the links