we have a few around atm with herath, vettori, jadeja, rehman, shakib etc but who is the best of all time? and, has there ever really been a truly great left arm spinner?

some from the uncovered era have quality stats such as Bobby Peel, Claude Carter, James Langridge, johnny wardle and wilfred rhodes. but personally i find it tough to rate and compare spinners who played on uncovered pitches with those who have played on covered pitches because the bowling conditions where so much more in favour for spinners on uncovered pitches.

derek underwood, possibly considered the greatest left arm spinner ever (at least maybe by some) was one of the first left arm spinners to play on covered pitches, and although his average is great (25) his strike rate is far more less impressive (75). bedi was also one of the first left armers to play on uncovered pitches and his record is even worse averaging 28 and striking at over 80.

are we currently watching the best left arm spinners to play the game? sure none are "greats", some have had "great" years but over their entire career they still fall short compared to the warne's, murali's, swann's, ajmal's. of course those just mentioned are amazing bowlers, greats of the game but that's my point, we don't really have a great (on the same level as other types of spin) when it comes to left arm orthodox spin or left arm chinaman.

now admittedly "great" spinners are rare, especially if your talking the quality of warne and murali (low averages, lots of wickets, high wickets per game, and strike rates under 60). but even with warne and murali bettering anyone else past or present statistically even including those who played on uncovered pitches, when great spinners are discussed as all time greats you still get mentions of guys like o'reilly, grimmett etc it's not very often that a left arm spinner comes up in the conversation if at all (other than to say so and so was the best left armer they'd be my pick if i was to pick a left armer but that would never happen because they're nowhere near as good as the great right arm spinners).

at current, with herath improving every year, if he can keep his average under 20 and his strike rate under 65 then he's got a good chance of claiming the title of greatest left arm spinner all time to-date. he's currently 4th all time on the wickets list (surprise surprise vettori is the clear leader in that department), depending on how much longer he plays (as he's already 35) he could pass bedi, and possibly pass underwood (though he'd probably have to play near to 40 to surpass underwood).

i'm guessing someone from the uncovered pitches era was actually the greatest there's been as far as left arm spinners but it's just difficult to know for sure.

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"- O Allah, forgive our sins and have mercy on us ! Help us through worst times and bless us with good ones, you are the ONE the only one to guide us to right path and save us from disasters.."

Originally Posted by Gowza
we have a few around atm with herath, vettori, jadeja, rehman, shakib etc but who is the best of all time? and, has there ever really been a truly great left arm spinner?

at current, with herath improving every year, if he can keep his average under 20 and his strike rate under 65 then he's got a good chance of claiming the title of greatest left arm spinner all time to-date. he's currently 4th all time on the wickets list (surprise surprise vettori is the clear leader in that department), depending on how much longer he plays (as he's already 35) he could pass bedi, and possibly pass underwood (though he'd probably have to play near to 40 to surpass underwood).

I think Razzak deserves a mention too in the list that includes Jadeja and Rehman.

I think Vettori with 360 wickets is the greatest test SLA of all time to date. Its even more fascinating because he played most of his games in fast NZ pitches, unlike slow low subcontinental pitches.

For ODI, I think it will be close between Vettori (283) and Razzak (201). Shakib is catching up (161) while Herath is at 33 wickets, with 42 average.

Finally, Herath is a very good test bowler (200 wickets) but far from being the 'greatest of all time'. Not only him, but anyone who can keep their average under 20 and SR under 65 for a long time will be great. He is 35 and at max will play 2-3 years. With 200 test and 33 ODI wickets now, he won't even to catch Vettori in Test or even Razzak and Shakib in ODIs.

Originally Posted by mufi_02
I think Razzak deserves a mention too in the list that includes Jadeja and Rehman.

I think Vettori with 360 wickets is the greatest test SLA of all time to date. Its even more fascinating because he played most of his games in fast NZ pitches, unlike slow low subcontinental pitches.

For ODI, I think it will be close between Vettori (283) and Razzak (201). Shakib is catching up (161) while Herath is at 33 wickets, with 42 average.

Finally, Herath is a very good test bowler (200 wickets) but far from being the 'greatest of all time'. Not only him, but anyone who can keep their average under 20 and SR under 65 for a long time will be great. He is 35 and at max will play 2-3 years. With 200 test and 33 ODI wickets now, he won't even to catch Vettori in Test or even Razzak and Shakib in ODIs.

typo with the 20 there, actually meant 30. as far as razzak that's a valid point but tbh i was talking tests. test matches are the real test for any player so fair enough razzak can be mentioned for ODIs but his name shouldn't come up ever when it comes to tests and imo to be a true ATG you have to be a great test match bowler.

also if you look up stats not many SLA's have strike rates of under 65, and not many average under 30 (and none to my knowledge who've done that on covered pitches) so to have both of those combined does put herath up there in the top echelon of SLA bowlers who have ever played the game.

Razzak for some reason is not getting the chance in tests. the selectors think that he is not a good spinner of ball and in tests a spinner should spin the ball even if he lacks in the wicket column.
I feel we need to categorize between test and odis for the best left armers. in odis razzak/vetori/shakib is leading and in test herath/vetori is leading to be the best of all times till now

__________________
"- O Allah, forgive our sins and have mercy on us ! Help us through worst times and bless us with good ones, you are the ONE the only one to guide us to right path and save us from disasters.."

As a fellow SLA, I fully believe that we need to separate out the Test SLA vs Limited SLAs.

My criteria for a Test-class SLA
1) Can beat batsman in flight
2) Has the immaculate length to consistently bring batsman forward but hesitantly
3) Turns and bounces the ball enough to bring slips in play
4) Can get a set batsman out even when he's playing risk-free
5) Can bowl long spells to give his fast-bowlers a rest
6) Maintains tight control

For a limited over the attributes change:
1) Maintains tight control
2) Has sufficient variation of flight, turn, etc to keep batsman from all-out attack
3) Bowls at sufficient pace to prevent coming down the wicket
4) Able to adapt on the fly and change point/type of delivery as game changes

Going by these, the best SLA right now is Rangana Herath, and the best of all time Bishan Bedi.
Herath - whether home or abroad - you can see the opposition game planning for him. He's a strike bowler who's constantly probing the batsman. And he's an underrated turner of the ball. As for Bedi, go watch the clips. His loop and dip, the bounce he got - he was well-nigh intimidating on home pitches and fairly effective on foreign pitches.

Limited overs, I'd humbly posit our Abdur Razzak is one of the best. His stats are good enough but his value in a team which is almost always under the cosh cannot be understated. He gets good batsmen out - watch what a high % of his wickets are top order! Vettori and he are prolly my two best all-time Limited over SLAs

Originally Posted by ReZ_1
Razzak for some reason is not getting the chance in tests. the selectors think that he is not a good spinner of ball and in tests a spinner should spin the ball even if he lacks in the wicket column.
I feel we need to categorize between test and odis for the best left armers. in odis razzak/vetori/shakib is leading and in test herath/vetori is leading to be the best of all times till now

well look at how razzak has performed so far when given chances in tests, that's why he's not getting selected, her has thrown his name back up there with the last FC season but we've got others ahead of him in the pecking order to try atm.

yes we need to categorize between ODIs and tests, in that regard razzak has to be right up there (possibly the best ever, hogg is his only competition), in tests though there haven't been that many great left armers and that's why i wanted to discuss it. as far as vettori being up there as the best of all time, i realise he's the leading test wicket taker, but averaging 34 and striking at almost 80 i just can't place him up there, he's a bit like courtney walsh i guess (though i'd consider walsh a better fast bowler than vettori is a spinner).

Originally Posted by RazabQ
As a fellow SLA, I fully believe that we need to separate out the Test SLA vs Limited SLAs.

My criteria for a Test-class SLA
1) Can beat batsman in flight
2) Has the immaculate length to consistently bring batsman forward but hesitantly
3) Turns and bounces the ball enough to bring slips in play
4) Can get a set batsman out even when he's playing risk-free
5) Can bowl long spells to give his fast-bowlers a rest
6) Maintains tight control

For a limited over the attributes change:
1) Maintains tight control
2) Has sufficient variation of flight, turn, etc to keep batsman from all-out attack
3) Bowls at sufficient pace to prevent coming down the wicket
4) Able to adapt on the fly and change point/type of delivery as game changes

Going by these, the best SLA right now is Rangana Herath, and the best of all time Bishan Bedi.
Herath - whether home or abroad - you can see the opposition game planning for him. He's a strike bowler who's constantly probing the batsman. And he's an underrated turner of the ball. As for Bedi, go watch the clips. His loop and dip, the bounce he got - he was well-nigh intimidating on home pitches and fairly effective on foreign pitches.

Limited overs, I'd humbly posit our Abdur Razzak is one of the best. His stats are good enough but his value in a team which is almost always under the cosh cannot be understated. He gets good batsmen out - watch what a high % of his wickets are top order! Vettori and he are prolly my two best all-time Limited over SLAs

How come you don't have a column yet? Why so cruel to us... I want read weekly cricket blogs of you... :]