mozes_kriebel: If it hurts when you walk, and you're down to ~25 mpw, it might be time to bail on your race OR totally abandon a time goal. I actually completed my first marathon under similar circumstances - I had ITBS bad enough that I had to give up on a goal time completely, stop to stretch repeatedly during the race, etc. I ended up at 3:50, which I was thrilled with under the circumstances.

Anyways: you definitely belong here; you're just having crap luck with an injury. Get healthy first, then worry about sub3 later. If you stay healthy, you'll definitely be able to do it.

strugglr: Good luck with the race!

mikkey: Yuck, sorry to hear about the foot injury. Good luck healing up.

swim5599: I can sympathize with 6:00 sounding intimidating, but both your LT runs and your Truth run indicate that you are a clear notch above me right now, and maybe two. As for my plans: I'm going to do 20 tomorrow, which should bring me to 74-75 for the week. Given the lack of quality, it feels like a taper week, though. I'll cut back to ~60 for next week, I think.

Sorry to hear about your struggle mozes. I think I understand your frustration, we all going through that from time to time. A lot depends on what you learn from all that - you can give up and forget about all that running crap and that obviously will be totally fine - there is so much stuff in this life except running. But you can also think about what happened and analyze would you would like to change to prevent something like this in the future. I was told some time ago about a guy who started to run in his 30s and had 8 stress fractures before he started to run more or less injuries free - I guess it took him a lot of experimentation to get where he finally arrived - he was running low 2:40s in his mid fifties. In any case - good luck with healing and stay positive whatever you do next.

Mikkey - Sorry about the foot. My mother always told me that motorcycles are dangerous... Good call on taking it easy and playing it by ear. Also I never thanked you for the kind words on my RR and the vote of confidence a few pages ago...I hope things get better quick for you. I would look at the trigger points map see if anything shows up - it might be areas other than the one that hurt:

Mozes - that's a tough situation. Good luck regardless of what you do.

Swim - awesome run, you nailed it.

So I had 18M with 13@ MP today and took advantage of a local half marathon in Hollywood. I ran 2.6M to the start and then tried to keep it at MP effort during the race. The main issue is that despite the organizer's claim of a "flat and fast" course, the course was never really flat - it was a succession of short climbs/descents and longer more gentle inclines/declines (see below) . The climbs weren't bad but it was enough to make it difficult to get into a rhythm and keep MP and the effort constant.

Also there were a lot of turns and U-turns (11 U-turns total!) on the course (see map) at the end of the short climb/descent to go back, so it made it even harder to keep pace.

Finally between M9 and M12 I had to zig zag around slow 5K/10K runners/walkers. This was a huge race, and unfortunately everbody started at the same time but the 5k/10k runners and half marathoners merged around M9. So it made M9-11.5 a struggle because of all these moving..obstacles! I made a point to elbow a few people including one who stopped right in front of me to take a selfie. Good thing I did not pick that race to try to PR.

Overall based on the HR data I think I was in the right zone at 164 average (forget the maxHR for M2 and M3 as my monitor registered malfunction spikes there), which is around MP HR. I ran the last 2M probably a bit too hard (AHR 167) but ended up in 1:29:48 for 13.1. During the last 3M the legs felt limiting - I was a bit sore in the hamstrings, maybe because of the heavy week of training before and because I lifted pretty heavy on thursday. So overall I am OK with this 'training run', but this is not really the confidence builder, as it felt harder than I wanted and I barely made it in sub-3 pace for a half marathon. I added 2.9M to make it 18.6M.

Swim – My advice regarding your HM is to study the elevation very carefully and set up a pace for every mile with an overall average pace of 6:15, a pace you're comfortable with and that would yield a sub-1:22, a pretty big PR for you. I would tack on 10 seconds to the first mile – I've found that hitting my pace in the first mile can slow me up later; better to ease into it. Stick to your paces through the first half of the race. After that, you can stick to your paces if you're not feeling fast, or if you feel good you can ignore the paces and step it up a notch or two. Unless you really over-accelerate or elevation hampers you, you should be able to hold a pretty nice level of discomfort for the last six miles. It's not like the marathon where you can pay a big penalty in the late miles for earlier mistakes. You may slow down a bit, but it's usually a fair trade-off for any earlier eagerness. My two cents (I've run 20 HMs).

Mikkey - Sorry about the foot. My mother always told me that motorcycles are dangerous... Good call on taking it easy and playing it by ear. Also I never thanked you for the kind words on my RR and the vote of confidence a few pages ago...I hope things get better quick for you. I would look at the trigger points map see if anything shows up - it might be areas other than the one that hurt:

Paul- left knee sore ....same as me. Is it your IT band or runners knee ?

Mikkey- Im in similar shape to my pr- 58mpw average since start of the year and 2x10k tempos in the last 2 weeks in 38.40 and 38.30 although im never sure if I do these at 15k or half pace. First race has about 11 hills no monsters but enough to get out of tempo pace. Second race in may should be about half as hilly.

Just watching Paris on livestream. Bekele will be interesting to watch 25km to go.

Paul- left knee sore ....same as me. Is it your IT band or runners knee ?

Mikkey- Im in similar shape to my pr- 58mpw average since start of the year and 2x10k tempos in the last 2 weeks in 38.40 and 38.30 although im never sure if I do these at 15k or half pace. First race has about 11 hills no monsters but enough toget out of tempo pace. Second race in may should be about half as hilly.

Just watching Paris on livestream. Bekele will be interesting to watch 25km to go.

I'm not sure if they should be at 15k or half pace either, but hopefully Sir Slammin will be able to help with that!

Run2thehills a nice MP run in a tough week even if it felt like crap. I don't think we realize the difference that running a couple days after lower body weights makes, but race day it will pay off.

Paul Nice MP and tempo run. If I ever do this again I might try Daniels.

Here is my week:

m: 5@7:55

t: 7@7:08, 7 strides

w: 12@6:42

tr: 4@8:03

f: 10@7:25

s: 7 w/3.1@5:49 (18:04)

sn: 17@7:24

62 miles

Had a mild head cold this week. Was on pace for a 17:45 5K for the first 2 miles but I couldn't hang on. I'm once again not sure about my goal for Boston. My weeks this year have been 59, 63, 63, 64, 71, 70, 70, 56, 72, 65, 71, 71, 72, 62. I averaged 50.6 MPW over 2013. I feel honestly pretty sick of running at this point, and pretty sure I won't ever do a higher milage plan than 70 MPW. Funny I just got a super intense calf cramp that sent me jumping up screaming from the desk as I wrote the last sentence. Happy to be tapering.

Workouts don't make you faster or stronger. Recovering from workouts makes you faster and stronger.

Here's the play by play on my week Mon 7 easy 8:45Tue 11 with 5k worth of 5:37 interval work. Wed 17 7:29 this run was brutalThurs 7 8:55Fri 8 7:40Sat 22 the truth run huge boost psychologicallySun 8 8:3080 total. Very happy with the last several weeks will be cutting back next week and then tapering about 7 days for my goal half. Thanks for the love guys always nice to read the encouraging words. Will be interested to hear about whatever distance race slammin was running today.

First week of taper, with not much mileage cutback, but no quality. Took it very easy at the beginning of the week in light of the Truth last weekend, and it's good that I did - my HR at easy pace didn't return to normal until Friday morning. Thursday's run was on the Boston course again, and I'm feeling much less intimidated after this second visit. Went up Heartbreak at 6:35 pace (which I obviously won't be doing in the race) to convince myself that it wasn't so terrible.

Friday's run had 3 on the track at GMP. AHRs for those 3 miles were 158, 162, 162. Low 160s is right in line with what I was seeing for MP HR last summer, so I'm taking this as another sign that I should end up somewhere between 6:40 and 6:45 pace in the race.

Did today's 20 with no fuel again - I know you gristly old guys have been doing them this way since your uncle found fire, but it's still a new thing to me, and man are the last 2-3 miles tough. Hopefully I get some fuel adaptation out of them. Probably going to aim for 60 tops next week, which means this was my last LR this cycle.

Run2 - That is a crazy looking HM course, I've never seen anything like that. Nice week!

Dan - Been enjoying your pace advice tread, good stuff! I'm certainly no expert but with your training I think you got 2:55 in you. I did some of my long runs early in the program without fuel to try and adapt a bit but at this point I am more worried about how my stomach is going to take GU so I like to use them to test my threshold. It feels good to get out on the course before the race, I used to run 10+ miles of the NYCM course before the race all the time. Definitely good for building confidence.

My Week:

Mon - 7 mi @ 7:14 w/ 8 x 100m Strides

Tue - SRD

Wed - 12 mi @ 6:55

Thu - 8 mi @ 7:14 w/ 6 x 100m Strides

Fri - 5 mi @ 7:50

Sat- 3 mi WU @ 7:23 / 10k in 35:09 / 2 mi CD @ 7:09

Sun - 17 mi @ 6:46

Total - 61 mi

Ran the Scotland Run in Central Park yesterday and the field was seriously fast. I went out like a high schooler...or Slammin in his last 15K... but I was still able to beat my PR by almost 3 min with a 35:09. I think I could do much better with better pacing and an actual taper.

Wanted to try a shorter taper than three weeks so I added a few miles to the plan to bump up the scheduled mileage. Have Pfitz's 3 x 1,600 this coming Wednesday and then its just easy stuff until Patriots Day. I am moving out of my apartment in NYC next weekend but I sprung for the full service movers package so I can get away with not doing any of heavy lifting. Ideally I would have moved after Boston but I couldn't convince the sellers of the house I am buying to push the closing back two weeks... I guess they didn't think it was a good enough excuse... what do they know. Oh well, I think I will be ok but hopefully it doesn't hurt my taper.

Dan: Nice week. Smart to monitory HR and take it easy on the intensity. I wish I had that kind of discipline. You've had a great cycle. Can't wait to see your performance in Boston.

Swim: Nice job with The Truth Run.

Run2theHills: Between this and SD Half, you're due for a flat course where you can dominate! although given your handle, maybe you don't want that?

4thirty: Maybe it was too large a jump from 2013? You've put in some solid weeks- I wouldn't fret over picking a goal for Boston yet. Let yourself recover from the taper and see how you feel race week. Goal or not, maybe the experience itself will rejuvenate you and lift your spirits. Sounds you're in need of a nice break after Boston. Hopefully the next cycle, whenever that may be, will go a lot better.

Paul: That's a cool weds workout. How were those .66T/.33MP miles? Was that hard to keep track of? How much easier did MP feel?

MEO: Holy crap! Nice PR!!

My Week:

M - 9.3 @ 7:32

T - 10 w/ 10x800@2:38, 300m Recovery +1min rest.

W - 13.2 @ 7:21

Th - 13 @ 6:17, w/10@5:58

F - SRD

S - 22.4 @ 6:46. First 11mi at 7:06, next 10 at 6:19.

Su - 7.8 @ 7:28 w/ hill sprints

Total: 75.8

Strongest week yet. Dropped the mileage a bit and focused on quality. Did a Yasso 800 on Tuesday at 2:38s. MLR with long hills on weds felt good, even (maybe especially?) in heavy rain. Tempo run on Thursday was fastest and longest yet. Gave myself an out to do 8 at LT and then 2 at MP, but felt good after 8, so I just clipped off the last two. Long Run felt fine through the first 17, and then my right shoulder/upper lats starting bugging me. Had to stop a few times to stretch it out. Felt a taaad sluggish fitness-wise, especially through some of the hillier MP miles. Probably some lingering fatigue from hard workouts this week. Next two weeks of tapering should do me good.

Not planning on any more tough workouts from here on out- just a few MP miles here and there and maybe some strides. Focus will be on rest, nutrition and sports therapy.

Felt pretty fresh after recovering last week. Running LT pace intervals felt much better than doing it continuous, like comfortably hard versus going to the well for the Pfitz 12 w/7 run I did 2 weeks ago. If I get the same training effect in intervals as I would continuous(?), I'll keep it like this for future cycles. I was vacillating back and forth on whether to go with The Truth or a long MP run today and looking at my training log, I realized I've done a lot of Canova-type interval workouts around MP but nothing continuous at MP. That, and wanting to recover quickly and knock out another set of LT intervals in a few days, had me lean towards the Hanson Simulator. Their theory is that running 26.2km (62% of race distance) un-tapered is a good tell for 26.2mi tapered. I sure hope it is because it felt great today. I woke up early to watch Bekele run the last 10k of the marathon for some extra motivation. In my last two debacle marathons in the Fall, I started feeling terrible at mile 15-16 and I've never felt as good in a race at 16 as I did today. 5K pace progressions were 6:52, 6:50, 6:50, 6:44, 6:30 and last 1.2k in 6:25. My going-in plan was to treat the KMs today like the miles on race day and run 1-10 at 6:50 pace, 11-20 at 6:45 and pick it up after 20 but back-off if I felt like I was red-lining. I know all-too-well that a lot can change in the final 10 miles, but I felt like I really could have knocked out a sub-3 marathon today. Hopefully not peaking too early, my plan is to stay 75-80 next week and then taper to 60 and 32. cbf, I need to make it official and change my goal to sub-3:00!

Hey guys! I thought I would start post my weeks here as well as in the sub-3:10 thread now that I'm finally getting some consistent training in after my knee problems. Since starting running really easy again in mid-January after two months of on again off again, where the last month was almost completely off, I have gradually increased my mileage: 19, 23, 32, 35, 37, 32, 43, 43, 51, 56, 60, so now I'm finally above peak-mileage from my Pfitz 12-55 cycle from last fall, which gave me my 2:59 time in Lausanne. This time around I use a more Hudson-inspired custom-made training plan, with bits and pieces borrowed from him, Pfitz, Daniels et co. Based on the fact that my goal race is Prague on May 11th, which should be faster than Lausanne, and that I am going to have more weeks of higher mileage than last year, and that I am already performing as well or better in workouts, I should be able to go under 3 hours. One question mark is my endurance in long runs though. I have had to be really careful with my long runs, and have had a really conservative distance progression with them, since my knee issues seem to pop up from time to time if I go for too long (last two weeks have been fine though, so hopefully this careful approach is paying off).

So, here's my 6-weeks out week (at the beginning of the week):

Mo - SRD (originally scheduled for we, but had had some problems with my knee again on Friday through Sunday, so rescheduled

After my Saturday (where I had to keep slowing myself down), I have a weird twinge on my upper right calf. I was limping a bit yesterday and it still feels somewhat significant today. If it doesn't feel much better tomorrow, I might take Monday off.

thomas2507: I'm glad to see that you've moved your goal! Your training has been incredibly strong (special blocks! 26.2 training runs at 6kft! 100mpw weeks!), so it seems more than justified to pick a more ambitious goal. Speaking of which, if you're labeling your training weeks as "6:43 GMP training", you probably want a goal that's a bit more aggressive than a naked sub3

jacob09: I always get weird niggles during my first week of tapering, and generally feel like dog ****. I bet you're just fine.

mkerikss: Glad to see a continued strong upward trend from you. You didn't go much off-plan from 18/55 leading up to Lausanne, right? If so, then I think it makes sense to aim for another sub3 in Prague, given that you're back to similar mileage, and given that you had such a large negative split in Lausanne. You're going to be a monster when you figure out how to run more miles, btw.

terenceL: 10 @ 5:58, yikes. Seeing that is why I don't want to split the thread - it's nice to see the workouts being done by the folks at the next level of fitness. (Yes, I could read two threads, but I'm lazy, and being a lurker is a bad substitute for being in a conversation.) Enjoy the taper! Of all the niggles to carry into a taper, one that doesn't concern your legs has to be one of the best.

meo85: I'm glad you're enjoying the spectacle I share the stomach woes problems during races, and I've been trying to attack it from both ends in this cycle - doing the runs with no fuel to try to get my body to adapt, and doing my MP runs with race-day fueling protocol. I've found that I don't have problems getting fuel in at anything less than MP, anyways. Switching to a gel with some protein in it seems to have helped; we'll see in 15 days!

I hope to someday run a poorly-executed 10K in 35m NIce job!

r2h: Races that merge in participants running different distances make me _crazy_. I first experienced this at the Providence Marathon in 2013 - at mile 24, the FM and HM courses merged. I had the course more or less to myself before that, and was on pace to break 3:10 (my goal at the time). All of a sudden I was sharing the road with hundreds of HM'ers "running" 2:30-3:00. I had to spend the last 2 miles weaving in and out of clumps of people to get under my goal. Since then, I check to see if the race organizers are doing anything this dumb before signing up.

Seems like a decent run given the conditions with the other racers and the stupid amount of turn-arounds; enjoy your taper!

swim5599: Great week. Can wait to see what you do in your half!

430: I think some burnout at this point is normal. I know I was a bit burned out going into my HM in mid-March; it's helped that the weather has turned, it's taper time, etc. You've had an especially tough cycle with the weather in the midwest. On the positive side, you've had some absolutely killer LRs; why does the 5K fizzle affect what you're targeting for the FM? At this point in your cycle, I don't know that it's reasonable to expect a 5K PR, or to use a non-PR there to back off a goal that was informed by months of training results. In any case, good luck resting up.

paul2434: I keep thinking about trying Daniels for some future cycle, but then I remember that I can't even tell what the workouts look like Nice week. Is the achilles blister/cut from your shoes?

11.16 h XT, mostly spinning, with a couple K treadmill, to top it off between 12 and 15 kmh. I really like the feeling of 16 kmh. 15 kmh would be my mp. Built a cool new web app, with running quotes here: http://blog.nilsnaegele.com/spiderman/index.html

dankelley - I also do long runs without fuel. Also, if I eat breakfast, it is just a couple spoonfuls of peanut butter (no carbs). Sometimes, it can definitely make the last couple miles pretty rough! I am trying to be more efficient at burning fat as fuel. Lately, I have been experimenting with UCAN about 30 minutes before a long run. UCAN is supposed to offer sustained energy without spiking blood sugar or insulin like gels or other drinks. Check it out if you are interested. Nice week!

I am happy about this week. Not as much climbing as last week, but more miles, which I think helps me not only for Boston, but an ultra in June. This week was my last tough week before Boston, and now, I'll start to take it easy. I am hoping to have a couple good runs next week, but I'll reduce the mileage and climbing.

Great weeks everyone. MEO you are too damn fast. Jackfrost with the 100 mile week and 9600ft of elevation. Crazy. Swamp glad you checked in.

Dan, thanks for the pep talk. I'm just tired, a little sick, and wishing I was faster than I am. In my gut I feel like 2:52:xx is doable but sub 2:50 is going to be a stretch. Either way, I should stop whining.

Workouts don't make you faster or stronger. Recovering from workouts makes you faster and stronger.

So much to catch up on. RE: sub 2:50 thread - I like the Sub 3:00 (sub 2:50 friendly) thread on the whole, especially since it is a good cross section of people posting. The only reason I would go for a Sub 2:50 thread is just to be able to keep a little closer tabs on things on a daily basis.

r2th - this is a very funny HM racing season for you - one interesting HM after another - I think you do it on purpose - so, Boston would feel like an easy run for you . Congrats on a solid training run!

PiwiKiwi - take it easy for the next few weeks.

paul2432 - really great runs on Sunday and Wednesday. I would also take few days off to make sure the knee is healed more or less - the hay in the barn, so, don't spoil this great cycle now.

4thirty - this "sickness" feeling is totally familiar to me - I had the same experience back in November - December before CIM. In my case it was obviously overtraining, it just became too much, to fix it I just stopped caring about hitting any paces and just run easy and only when I feel like doing it. Then I took two weeks off after the race, forgetting about running at all - enjoyed those two weeks a lot and then started to run every other day, really easy. It kind of healed. I hope it's something like this in your case - you can totally just run easy or recovery runs up until the race and still be 100% ready.

swim - great week! And congrats on The Truth Run again - that should be very encouraging for you.

dankelley - solid "taper" week . Glad you don't feel intimidated with the hills anymore. Re HM-ers withing a marathon race - I ran The Avenue of the Giants marathon twice - first time, when I was not prepared and started to "fight" 3-4 hours "racers" right after mile 14-15, I was in shock, second half of the race was a mental struggle. Next year it was much easier on a mental side, but still, kind of stressful. Though, I would not be honest enough - such a number of "slow" runners motivates you a little bit, a lot of encouragement from many half-ers also helps, makes your legs turn faster . Plus - I just like that race - it's pretty ideal from weather point of view most of the times.

TerenceL - great LR, super speedy, especially the LT section. Try to take it easy for the next few days.

thomas - great week with great quality runs - today's LR is fantastic - going sub 7 for 20 miles - I have never been able to do anything like that until this last cycle. Definitely sub 3 stuff.

mkerikss - great to hear things are going good for you! It seems like you can definitely PR in Prague, tmy only concern would be with the weather - it can be pretty warm in May there.

Jacob - definitely take day off, it just doesn't worth the risks, and then run recovery run next day - not faster - make sure your "problem" is gone - better be on a safe side.

Swampangel - solid running week from you!

Patrick - those Tuesday and Saturday's workouts definitely look impressive! Great week - nobody even says Wow about 80 mi from you - you made it look like a normal week .

Strugglr - congrats on a huge PR! And especially congrats on great attitude and perfect execution! Well done!

fast pug - wow! another half PR in this thread. This is just absolutely amazing time! Congrats!

jackfrost - that's just mind boggling week! Monster 100+ miles with 10000 ft elevation. Plus, definitely added bonus two 20+ miles runs on Saturday and Sunday - is that what you took from Dan's thread with Slammin question re twenty milers on two consecutive days?

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on long downhill runs. Basically in the Vancouver marathon there are a few good downhills and I need to know if I should keep my pace or try and gain some time by hoofing it. Thoughts?

430: Oh no. Don't get down on it. Sometimes it just takes a step back. Give your head some time to heal along with your body. I'm always wishing I was faster. Who doesn't?

Meo: Nice sneaky 10k PR. Man that's fast.

Frost: You mileage and climbing is consistently awesome. I see why you are so fast.

FastPug: Nice PR and 2nd overall. Killed it! Now we need a RR.

CaliB: Aha! Now us east coast guys get some good weather and you start to sweat it out there. Nice job pushing through it. Spring around here usually lasts a few weeks and then it will be 60+ dew point for 4 months.

Solid weeks from so many of you guys. Boston is going to truly a show for us watching at home. Thanks for all the kind words and encouragement on my race. I need to figure out how to translate these shorter race performances into a sub 3.

Strugglr - fantastic race! You were definitely due a good one. Even more impressive being just 3 weeks after your marathon. Punch that into mcmillan and it predicts you are about to smash every one of your PRs.

No desire to break up a happy home. My only reason was just due to volume - 30+ posts/day avg is beyond my ability to stay up with what's going on with what. And other marathon pace threads seem to delineate by 10 min .. but whatever.

Laugh. Go ahead. Got beat by a 10 yo. So I say I still got 1st woman - lol. 14th OA. Windy as a bitch, IMO. supposedly only 20 mph gusts but felt like 30. And rolling hills. Goal for this race was not really time but to beat this one woman who has beat me in every race while I lived in this town .. (the 10 year old's mother). Wasn't sure if she was going to be there today or not but she was .. so I tucked in behind her after the gun, but kept having to alter my stride so before 1/2 mile I said **** it and just ran .. which was a gamble I suppose then picked it up and tried to tuck in with this group of 4-5 guys (the 10 yo stayed back with her mom) but the group didn't run very smart for the conditions and I had to keep altering my stride, and we quickly blew up as a pack (which sucked) and so I ran the rest of the race on my own. 14th overall but I'm frustrated. Got a head cold yesterday with sore throat and feeling weak, but I'm tired of excuses. I did end up achieving my goal of beating the 10 yo's mom -- did so by 35-40 sec. Dad won overall. Quite the running genes! So I guess goal accomplished but still .. I'm really tiring of excuses for slower than desired (or reasonable expected) paces.

Thanks to those who wished me luck on my race - can't remember who that was - probably is 3-4 pages back. I really appreciate the thoughts though! Back to training!!

Redislander: I think downhill runner definitely takes practice and dedicated training depending on how extreme it is. You certainly want to roll with the hill, lean downhill, try to get as perpendicular to the slope as possible, do not try to maintain a steady pace (which would involve leaning back and putting the brakes on, which means hammering the quads). I was on a Hood-to-Coast team long ago and the runner of the first leg (a long steep downhill) destroyed his quads and could barely run subsequent leg, that said he was a guy who was prone to injuried.

This thread got hit with the usual Sunday mayhem. I'm not even going to try to hit everyone, will just stick with a few I remember:

Fast Pug / MEO - Great races. You guys are hella fast.

run2thehills - Why did you do that race again? Sounds pretty Mickey Mouse. Good job sticking with the pace despite the obstacles.

Mikkey - take care of yourself. The goal is the moose mug, not London.

cinnamon - what? A 10 year old?!? That's amazing. You need to buy her an xbox and some video games or move to a different part of the country because you won't be winning races any races around there anymore.