Well it would seem to me that we both have a preconception about the meaning.

Christ came in the flesh as foretold in the Scriptures. He came to save, not to defeat Rome physically in battle.

Anyhow, say what you will about the Greek be it the old vs the new. The MAJORTITY of Greek scholars do NOT consider 'a god' viable. Even so, that is
just one verse. Actually I love it when JW come by my house, they only come once then 'mark' it so no others come.

Why did I bring up Masonry? The head of the JW movement was a mason at one time. He was a crook. He was a False teacher period.

Christ said there is only one way to the Father and it is through Him. You must remember that when the time comes. God came in the Flesh to walk
amongst us. We can not fully comprehend the trinity per se, but the concept is straightforward. I do not follow Rome as I an a protestant, I
understand much about how the Bible came to be and the Trinity was not decided at Nicaea. Nicaea put down a basic Christian belief to deal with the
heresies that were rampant. The cannon was also basically decided BEFORE that meeting just not officially complete, actually it wasn't official until
a short while AFTER Nicaea.

When Christ told us to baptise, he said do it in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit......Strange huh? yet in another verse it says
in the name of Jesus. Again should make you wonder.

Joh 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us
plainly."
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be
God."
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
Joh 10:35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
Joh 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Joh 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I
in the Father."

Note the Jews knew EXACTLY what he was saying, hence they wanted to stone Him.

people usually quote verse 30 without the context because they knew that the context proves them wrong.

first, you have numerous statements that obviously show jesus referring to god as a separate person. VS 25 "the works that I do in My Father's
name," (not "my name") VS 29 " "My Father, who has given them to Me" (why would he give himself something?) VS 36 "the Father sanctified and
sent into the world" (how do you send yourself?) VS 29 "I am the Son of God'" (plainly calling himself the son of god, not god) VS 38 "Father is
in Me, and I in the Father" (not "the father IS me, and I AM the father"). so if you cant read these statements for what they are, then you cant
read.

second is jesus' response.

"Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and
the Scripture cannot be broken),".

jesus was quoting psalms where humans were called "gods". jesus was showing them that god is a title, and that it wasnt the first time humans were
called "gods"

then there is the simple elegant statement "I and the Father are one."

1 cor 3:[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

does this mean that all christians are the same person?

eph 5:[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

does this mean that a married couple are actually one person?

john 10 is good passage to use to prove the trinity, at least until you actually read it.

Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the
Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own
initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Joh 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because
I go to the Father.
Joh 14:13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

seriously do you actually read the passages, or do you just quote them out of some trinity guidebook?

"The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

if god and jesus are the same person, how can this possibly make sense?

Joh 8:53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
Joh 8:55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and
keep His word.
Joh 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Joh 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

Again they pick up stones. why so many doubt this I have no idea, the Jews understood EXACTLY what he was claiming. He was not the Messiah they wanted
or were looking for and yet they wanted to stone him?? Why such a reaction again?

jesus was simply claiming to have been alive before abraham. where was true, in the beginning he was with god. this in no way proves that he was
god.

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He
had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE
SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Heb 1:9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR
COMPANIONS."
Heb 1:10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Note: God is the Creator correct? Whom is identified here as the Creator?

"He again brings the firstborn into the world,"

jesus was god's firstborn. the firstborn of all creation. he was only begotten in that he was the only creation created directly by god.

isaiah calls jesus god's masterworker or masterbuilder depending on the translation. so jesus did have a part in creation. the same way a builder
(jesus) will build with an architect (god)

it isnt a question of whether or not jesus was alive before. he was, but he is not god. they are not the same person.

"His Son" "He appointed heir of all things" "through whom (same way an person builds a home THROUGH a builder) also He made the world." "exact
representation (not same nature) of His nature" "YOU ARE MY SON" "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"

Joh 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
Joh 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was
calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He
sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Joh 5:20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so
that you will marvel.
Joh 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
Joh 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son" how can this statement be true if they are the same person?

Mar 2:1 When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home.
Mar 2:2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.
Mar 2:3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.
Mar 2:4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet
on which the paralytic was lying.
Mar 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mar 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Mar 2:8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these
things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 "Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven'; or to say, 'Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk'?
Mar 2:10 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --He said to the paralytic,
Mar 2:11 "I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home."
Mar 2:12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying
God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this."

Again the Jews knew whom he was claiming to be....no doubt here.

the pharisees assumed that god is the only one to forgive. jesus having authority to forgive ≠ god

Originally posted by edsinger
Anyhow, say what you will about the Greek be it the old vs the new. The MAJORTITY of Greek scholars do NOT consider 'a god' viable.

actually no. they are split.

and the ones who usually support the king james rendering are usually trinitarians themselves.

Even so, that is just one verse.

exactly. one verse against an army of verses that describe jesus as subordinate and separate from god. use logic.

Why did I bring up Masonry? The head of the JW movement was a mason at one time. He was a crook. He was a False teacher period.

yes, and i hear abraham lincoln was a homosexual. it doesnt mean that we have proof

Christ said there is only one way to the Father and it is through Him. You must remember that when the time comes. God came in the Flesh to
walk amongst us. We can not fully comprehend the trinity per se, but the concept is straightforward.

no, its not straightforward. in fact its mindbendingly abstract. it doesnt at all make sense. it even puts into doubt other key doctrine of the bible
like the ransom, and the resurrection.

I do not follow Rome as I an a protestant, I understand much about how the Bible came to be and the Trinity was not decided at Nicaea. Nicaea
put down a basic Christian belief to deal with the heresies that were rampant. The cannon was also basically decided BEFORE that meeting just not
officially complete, actually it wasn't official until a short while AFTER Nicaea.

counsil of nicaea laid the groundwork for the trinity. in fact, in the early proclamations, the holy spirit wasnt mentioned.

When Christ told us to baptise, he said do it in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit......Strange huh? yet in another verse it
says in the name of Jesus. Again should make you wonder.

yea, like when the bible says the "god of abraham, isaac, and jacob" , no wait, they are three separate people, nevermind.

There is a reason that JW's are considered a 'cult'.

yes, because people dont know how to read.

i have great respect for the JW's. they go through great pains to make sure that they are living according to the bible. letting the bible dictate
doctrine, not the other way around. unlike the spiritually dead churches that preach what they want.

the pyramid on Russell's grave was likely because of his fascination with pyramids of Egypt.

I was given a DVD that was actually
critical of the JW's and they went to Russel's grave site and filmed. These movie makers never claimed that the pyramid belonged to Russel or that
he ever ordered it to to be made. They show his grave and it is probably at least 50 ft away from it. They only claim that it seemed a coincidence
that he was buried close to a pyramid.
I think the masonic connection is slightly overblown by the detractors of JW's.

btw: I found a typo on my last post that is too late to edit. I left off the n on what should read men so it makes the sentence
unintelligible. Oops.

the pyramid on Russell's grave was likely because of his fascination with pyramids of Egypt.

I was given a DVD that was actually
critical of the JW's and they went to Russel's grave site and filmed. These movie makers never claimed that the pyramid belonged to Russel or that
he ever ordered it to to be made. They show his grave and it is probably at least 50 ft away from it. They only claim that it seemed a coincidence
that he was buried close to a pyramid.
I think the masonic connection is slightly overblown by the detractors of JW's.

thank you for that information, ive never actually been there so i dont know.

if that true, then that shows just how crazy some of these claims are. most sites i think say that its his tombstone

As I mentioned before there are some very informed people that post on ATS, like you Miriam. And now even a small group of ATS posters have learned
the truth about the conspiracy of the "Council of Nicaea" and it's Trinity, it even made into the top 20 most important conspiracy list that ran on
ATS.

Why do you resort to siding with the traitorous reasoning from the scribes and pharisees?????

They were the ones putting words in Jesus' mouth, to find a reason to trap him.

If you believe IN Jesus, why don't you BELIEVE HIM???????

He came down to earth as God's CHIEF AGENT!!!!!!! Do you not know what being someones AGENT mean??????? An AGENT represents you. You (the
boss) give your AGENT authority to do whatever you please. So why did Jesus have to ability to perform miracles, forgive sins and everything amazing
he did???? Yes, that's right, his father JEHOVAH, GAVE him such authority.

Oh, and after this CHIEF AGENT is done doing all his FATHER (the boss) gave him authority to do, guess what this CHIEF AGENT will do next????

The answer is in: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

Now, if you really want to go in depth about why EXACTLY Jesus while not having yet sacrificed his life, was able to forgive sins, let me know, and I
can show you how the "LIVE GOAT" during the day of atonement in the temple, prefigured Jesus forgiving sins.

It's kind of a mystery and I think it is beyond human comprehension. John says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and was known as Jesus.
Now, to think that we can nail it down and make a dogma out of it, we make ourselves equal to the council members at Nicea. Half of the delegates
walked out before it really got started because they could see where it was headed and wanted no part of it. I side with the ones who walked out.

btw: in response to Blue Jay, you should check out my video at Video & Media. That took a lot more research than you might think from just watching
it. I wanted to find out for myself what was up with the different 9/11 videos and had no fixed objective as far as what my conclusion would be. Now
a year and a half later, you can see what I came up with.
If I can devote so much time on trivialities like that, I should be doing equal work on things concerning the Lord. Well, I think I do.
Thanks for the appreciation.

the pyramid on Russell's grave was likely because of his fascination with pyramids of Egypt.

I was given a DVD that was actually
critical of the JW's and they went to Russel's grave site and filmed. These movie makers never claimed that the pyramid belonged to Russel or that
he ever ordered it to to be made. They show his grave and it is probably at least 50 ft away from it. They only claim that it seemed a coincidence
that he was buried close to a pyramid.
I think the masonic connection is slightly overblown by the detractors of JW's.

[edit on 25-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

During his return from a ministerial tour of the western and southwestern United States, the already-ill Russell died from the result of multiple
ailments on October 31, 1916 in a train car as it approached Pampa, Texas. He was buried in Rosemont United Cemetery, Pittsburgh. The gravesite is
marked by both a headstone and a seven-foot tall pyramid memorial erected by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1921

Many Bible Students were disaffected by Rutherford's rejection of Russell's views regarding his role in the restoration of the "truth"[36] and
support of the Great Pyramid as having been built under God's direction[37].[38]

This must be a conspiracy nut......Once and for all this subject needs to be looked at again.

For those that choose to think of Christ as a Super Angel or such need to read. Its all over the Bible if you LOOK. GOD WITH US, not big time super
angel among us...

For humans sin, the price of sin is death and eternal punishment. The price had to be made. The old testament talked and was a precursor to the coming
of the Messiah. He was that sacrifice, you know the Redeemer that Job spoke of? Anyhow lets look at Nicea in a non conspiracy forum aspect. Heck most
here have probably not read it anyway, the creed that is. the summation of the conference.

(yes some walked out....some argued, eastern Christianity split from Western in some ways)

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very
God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was
crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended
into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have
no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is
worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the
dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

And no Catholic does not mean Roman in this case....

So discuss just what is a false doctrine here...

H20= ICE = STEAM = WATER

Same thing different form, yet the SAME thing.

Christ had a purpose to come live as man, sinless. To be a servant and sacrifice....so that ALL could be saved.

"And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation."

This passage does not teach that Christ was created. The word "firstborn" means that which is "first or chief" in rank. In the Old Testament,
Ephraim (which was a synonym for all Israel) was said to be God's "firstborn."

Jeremiah 31:9 (NASB)

" With weeping they shall come,

And by supplication I will lead them;

I will make them walk by streams of waters,

On a straight path in which they shall not stumble;

For I am a father to Israel,

And Ephraim is My first-born."

The interesting point here is this: Ephraim was Joseph's son, and was younger than Manasseh. "Firstborn" was used in the sense that he was greater
than Manasseh. In Colossians 1:15, Paul is making reference to a messianic prophecy found in Psalm 89:27:

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