That conversation with Marcus in Ceremonies of Light and Dark is interesting. Lennier says he loves Delenn, but not in a romantic way.. he claims his love for her is more noble and more pure. I don't believe him when he says that. But, now that I think about it, I don't know if that is because I know what comes later, or because it just sounds ridiculous. I DID believe that he was accepting the fact they'd never be together, and that his love for her would remain a secret.

I didn't pick up on any bitterness from Lennier in Racing Mars, either. He just dutifully waits outside the bedroom with the other Minbari while Sheridan and Delenn "discover each other's pleasure centers". I didn't see the slightest hint of jealousy there. There's some obvious disapproval at the end there ("Woohoo??"), but that seems to me more about Sheridan not taking the ritual seriously or something like that. And anyway, that whole scene is just there for laughs, right?

I believe you are right about Lennier's inexperience and black/white morality, and that something rather interesting could have happened with that ...

You could argue I spose that potentially ending the series after season 4 ment that JMS reduced any resentment from Lennier in season 4 he might have planned.

In terms of playing off of a moral naivety I think JMS did that well with Ivanova prior to this. Her extreme reaction to the situation with Marcus works because its not just a personal loss but someone with a similar kind of black/white world view judging themselves in a negative manner.

In Ivanova's case we do get some hint to resolution with taking up the Ranger One position, with the lack of follow up to Lennier we don't really get this.

I guess part of my problem is that I do not understand how having a wedding fundamentally alters a relationship. That isn't to say that it doesn't, in general, just that I personally don't get how changing your relationship status in the eyes of the law changes your relationship status in any other way. I have been married, and for me, having a ceremony and signing some papers didn't make the relationship different at all. Except maybe that for several weeks after the wedding I kept laughing at the idea that I was married because it seemed so ridiculous. But, that's just me

So, it's hard for me to grasp why Lennier is so hung up on the marriage thing. He's all "well, now that you're married, I've got to get out of your way". Was he maybe just hopeful that as long as Sheridan and Delenn weren't married, maybe there was still a chance they'd decide they didn't want to be together after all

I think that's exactly it and I'm not sure why you have a hard time grasping that since you are obviously very intelligent and have excellent taste 8-) Maybe you are looking at marriage from the inside, not from the perspective of the shucked oyster shell. I'm certain Lennier thought that eventually she would come around and see him in a different light. From his perspective she slammed the door in his face. She made a forever promise to someone else. Essentially (in Lennier's mind), by getting married Delenn was saying to him, "You will never be any closer to me than this. Stop where you are. There is officially and permanently no hope that I will ever love you."

Marriage is pretty serious, I imagine especially to a Minbari. I would submit that a person who has had a divorce (or even thinks that divorce is an option) could not really appreciate the solidity or finality that an untainted romantic makes it out to be.

I'm with deaded on this, that's exactly how it feels to the person on the outside. In fact, I wonder if JMS was writing from some personal experience about this.

I don't mind Lennier's storyline taking this turn, what I did mind is a) it gave us some missed opportunities for Lennier to go off on some kind of path of self-discovery beyond the Rangers and b) there is no way in hell it would have even crossed his mind to leave Sheridan to die, no matter how jealous he was – that simply was not in his character.

I can see now why Morden came to him in Day of the Dead though. By this stage, I don't think Lennier could tell you who he was, but he could definitely tell you what he wanted.

You could argue I spose that potentially ending the series after season 4 ment that JMS reduced any resentment from Lennier in season 4 he might have planned.

This had never occurred to me ... Interesting suggestion!

Quote:

In terms of playing off of a moral naivety I think JMS did that well with Ivanova prior to this. Her extreme reaction to the situation with Marcus works because its not just a personal loss but someone with a similar kind of black/white world view judging themselves in a negative manner.

In Ivanova's case we do get some hint to resolution with taking up the Ranger One position, with the lack of follow up to Lennier we don't really get this.

I'm not sure if I would agree that Ivanova's reaction is "extreme". That whole situation is sort of "extreme" so I don't know what a "normal" reaction would be ... I do agree that we get some resolution with her character, but not for Lennier. I would have loved to have seen more of him, but you can't resolve every chararcter's storyline, I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded

I think that's exactly it and I'm not sure why you have a hard time grasping that since you are obviously very intelligent and have excellent taste 8-) Maybe you are looking at marriage from the inside, not from the perspective of the shucked oyster shell. I'm certain Lennier thought that eventually she would come around and see him in a different light. From his perspective she slammed the door in his face. She made a forever promise to someone else. Essentially (in Lennier's mind), by getting married Delenn was saying to him, "You will never be any closer to me than this. Stop where you are. There is officially and permanently no hope that I will ever love you."

Marriage is pretty serious, I imagine especially to a Minbari. I would submit that a person who has had a divorce (or even thinks that divorce is an option) could not really appreciate the solidity or finality that an untainted romantic makes it out to be.

I'm totally willing to accept that the problem is with me, and not with the writing here (my obvious excellent taste notwithstanding ). Clearly I have never been an untainted romantic ... Or I can't remember being one, anyway!

Also, excellent point about how marriage ceremonies are probably rather different in Minbari culture. I imagine that marriage means rather more to the average Minbari than it does to me.

What nobody's mentioned yet is that Delenn kind of encouraged him to hope for more even after she was with John. Meeting him in Downbelow and asking him to run a covert operation was one thing but then touching him and wanting to keep him after just to talk. She *knew* that he was in love with her but did nothing at all to discourage him. It was easy for him to convince himself that there might be hope and that if John weren't there, Delenn might well turn to him.

Jan

__________________
"You know, I used to think that life was terribly unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair? If all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." ~~Marcus Cole

What nobody's mentioned yet is that Delenn kind of encouraged him to hope for more even after she was with John. Meeting him in Downbelow and asking him to run a covert operation was one thing but then touching him and wanting to keep him after just to talk. She *knew* that he was in love with her but did nothing at all to discourage him. It was easy for him to convince himself that there might be hope and that if John weren't there, Delenn might well turn to him.

Jan

Wow, what?
Talk about things I don't pick up on!

This honestly would never in a million years have occurred to me! Do you mean she purposefully kept him on the hook for some reason or other, or that maybe she could have had some interest in him, if not for Sheridan? In the way Delenn treats Lennier, I don't see anything but mentor-acolyte relationship .. That is to say, I do see them becoming close, which seems kind of unavoidable under the circumstances, but I don't see her encouraging him in his romantic interest for her, at all.

Next time you watch 'Meditations on the Abyss', watch the scene between Delenn and Lennier when she assigns him his mission. Delenn breaks the finger of they guy threatening her and Lennier finishes the fight. He reminds her that he's sworn to never leave her and he'll be at her side no matter the cost. Then there's the talk about how it was necessary to keep things from Sheridan and Lennier asks Delenn what she wants of him and there's a spark of wild hope there until she tells him it's a mission and he bows his head to get his composure. Delenn strokes his cheek when she asks about the scar on his face. When he wants to go to the White Star, she wants him to stay because she hasn't seen him for so long. and holds his chin when she tells him she could never think of him betraying the Anla'shok.

It's only four episodes later when he declares his love for her in 'The Fall of Centauri Prime' and she says "I know".

No, I really don't think she was trying to keep him on the hook but she was lonely for a friend and knew that she could count on him so she (in my opinion) behaved badly, almost cruelly by behavior like I described above. Far kinder would be for her to have just let him go to the Rangers and try to forget her.

The Lennier you see in this episode isn't the mild-mannered innocent acolyte we'd originally met. He'd talked himself into thinking that his love was 'nobler and purer', probably right up to the point when Delenn married Sheridan. From then on he referred to John as 'your partner' instead of 'your husband'. His expression changed when he looked at the picture of John and Delenn when he came to help them move to Minbar.

I had a feeling something bad was going to happen when I saw Lennier's expression when John came back from Z'ha'dum. He was very much *not* pleased at all. The signs were there - subtle, but there.

Jan.

__________________
"You know, I used to think that life was terribly unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair? If all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." ~~Marcus Cole

[I'm not sure if I would agree that Ivanova's reaction is "extreme". That whole situation is sort of "extreme" so I don't know what a "normal" reaction would be ... I do agree that we get some resolution with her character, but not for Lennier. I would have loved to have seen more of him, but you can't resolve every chararcter's storyline, I suppose.

For Ivanova I would say the emotional breakdown in the short term was extreme but really I ment the whole situation including the self judgement and leaving B5. The latter was forced on JMS but I'm guessing it was considered a potential trap door and it works partly for that reason IMHO.

I'm unsure what JMS's plan was for Lennier in following spin offs originally but whilst coming to terms with your mistakes was a big theme on B5 it seemed generally that the "mistakes" tended to fit into the other characters. That is they were proportional to the morals of those characters and with Lennier I don't think you needed to go this far to setup a similar situation. I would say as well that by having the "mistakes" fit into the characters personality/history they tended to carry more weight since they were much more of a judgement on them and a catalyst for change.