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Dear Jason,
Thanks for your input here,First let me say I meant no disrespect when I asked Mr Streckel about his aikido pedigree.It was simply to find out whether his critique was based on sound foundations.
In my experience the Japanese method of teaching is not exactly in line with what we in the West consider to be 'Good teaching methods'
.People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything.In a word they want Aikido in a plate.People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].Doing was the name of the game .Now people try and analyse things to the nth degree.Whole reams of internet mail are written and theories are expressed .Sometimes I just blank out when I read some stuff on this forum.Do we need to know reasons?Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
Maybe I am being too simplistic here.Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,

I think you've hit the nail on the head with some of the issues with the transmission methods - most of your generation trained directly under the 1st / 2nd generation Japanese teachers and learned the way they themselves were taught but with obvious language barriers - Japanglish if you will. They were possibly telling you how they can do what they can do and how to do the exercises but I'm guessing most of it went over most people's heads... Mind you, don't forget most of the direct students of O Sensei thought the guy was nuts.

If this is a good teaching / learning method then why are so very few people better than their respective teachers or indeed anywhere close? Could it be because they have no idea how to pass this stuff on? Maybe they don't have the skills to pass it on, maybe they're not interested in passing it on either . The answer is probably a little of both.

Yes, you can practice under a competent teacher and find your own way, but I think if you want to be able to do what the founder did and what his teachers did then you need to look outside of most aikido teachers around today. I'm not saying none of them have it, but I am saying very few can teach it. I'm not convinced I'd want to spend my entire life looking for something I might only just get a glimpse of if I'm lucky and only then if I screw my body up from 30 or 40 years of hard physical practice and abuse. Nothing wrong with being ready to drop and be exhausted after a long training session mind you, but not so sure it should be all the time and no need to get damaged.

I've taken ukemi for people (dan grades, at that) who've trained for decades, and felt the tension in their arms as they execute the technique, knowing I could stop them; i've also trained with people (from another dojo/organisation) who haven't trained for even ten years, aren't a dan grade, and are immensely powerful and unstoppable.

I think a teaching method that has the highest success rate is the best one. You can say 'Just train.' - but just train what? If you're never given any actual instruction, why bother with an instructor?
Making sure that you effectively, and quickly, teach aiki is the best route, surely: it ensures the survival of the art; that people keep coming back; and that you have people to practice with.

Didn't you just agree that it should be the goal of a teacher to raise students who are better than they are? What do you think it would look like if aikidokas got better than Tohei or O-Sensei?

To paraphrase somebody-or-other, if we're standing on the shoulders of giants, what's our excuse for NOT seeing further than they?

Hugh. Not quite as you put it. I said I have never met anyone with the aim of making students better than themselves. I hold this not as a fixed aim but more as an infinite ongoing principle. I wish all teachers did have similar views for then they would be very humble and less egotistical.

Standing on the shoulders of Giants type statements shows me where the writer is coming from and once again gives the impression of inspirational but alas egotistical.

As to what a person would look like if they were better than O'Sensei or Tohei? Well let's start with Tohei.

He would be a great admirer of Tohei obviously and vice versa. He would be a Great exponent of Ki Aikido obviously. By this time, he would be teaching under a new banner, a new name with the full respect and agreement of Tohei himself.

In his Aikido it would continuously be stated and written as to the correct source of his style, with reverence and respect.

Being a humble person he would never say his was better than.

I could go on but I think (or rather hope) you get the gist.

Now that is given as an example of someone, man or woman, who had been a student of his. Someone who hadn't been a direct student would however be doing it under his own banner somewhere with exactly the same respect.

Add onto it that someone not better than but with a great understanding of would also be doing the same.

So here's the thing. Due to Toheis Aikido being self developement the person will be very 'takemuso' so to speak. He will hold such things as never to say such things as 'taking it to a new level' and would recognise those who do as where they actually are in respect to developement.

A thorough understanding of Toheis way would lead to a very calm wise spiritual person. The principles involved are there for that reason, for that is his way.

Finally, this person would be able to translate in Aikido terminology what he is doing, openly and honestly. He would be able to relate how such things as univrsal love are part of such and how they fit with Aikido in technique, in movement, in action, in application etc.

Hugh. Not quite as you put it. I said I have never met anyone with the aim of making students better than themselves. I hold this not as a fixed aim but more as an infinite ongoing principle. I wish all teachers did have similar views for then they would be very humble and less egotistical.

Graham, I'm sorry you have not met them, but there are people who encourage their students & peers to become their best and exceed themselves as teachers, and who are happy to see their students make progress, and happier still as they are matched or outdone and then challenged to improve both their teaching skills as well as the skills they teach.

In my limited exposure to IP/aiki, Aikido, and the martial arts, I have met many people who have been selflessly helpful in this way; I don't think I would enjoy training with people who did not share this approach.

If by "real" you mean was I asking the question or was it rhetorical then no it wasn't rhetorical.

When one espouses non-control, non-confrontation, loving compassion, etc as basic tenets of how one behaves both on and off of the mat, which I believe you have but am willing to accept correction, do statements made in the manner above gel with this?

Well said rich. I asked in order find out why you asked.

So you noticed a change in my attitude there, yes indeed.

Most of the answer to your question is in the statement I made. Sadness.

How that relates to the tenets I behold to? Reality.

Sometimes you end up with a negative emotion, be it anger, antagonism sadness or such. Reality. But not the end or to be used as a justification.

Thus it is for me to look inwardly to find the truth of that sadness.

Having done that I can now say exactly the same thing with the same wording for that situation i described is sad but now I'M NOT.

I can 'let it be' more, I can accept it more so I am more centered, I can address people on the subject in a more non-disturbing manner. All in all with more Ki.

As with love it has nothing to do with agreeing or needing to impose will. As with compassion and humility it has nothing to do with being subservient to, sympathetic to or giving in to. As with non-confrontational it has nothing to do with therefore not correcting or challenging in a descent manner.

Graham, I'm sorry you have not met them, but there are people who encourage their students & peers to become their best and exceed themselves as teachers, and who are happy to see their students make progress, and happier still as they are matched or outdone and then challenged to improve both their teaching skills as well as the skills they teach.

In my limited exposure to IP/aiki, Aikido, and the martial arts, I have met many people who have been selflessly helpful in this way; I don't think I would enjoy training with people who did not share this approach.

Tom. All or most teachers are happy to see their students progress, that's obvious and I have met many. All or most teachers share their understandings and abilities with whoever they meet from whichever art, that too is obvious and I have met many. So don't feel sorry for me please.

As to the true understanding of what I said about holding to the principle of making better than self I'm afraid you have missed the point grasshopper.

It's another of my observations which are quite zen. Thus I see by action of rather than what appears to be.

Graham, I'm sorry you have not met them, but there are people who encourage their students & peers to become their best and exceed themselves as teachers, and who are happy to see their students make progress, and happier still as they are matched or outdone and then challenged to improve both their teaching skills as well as the skills they teach.
.

could even name two: Saotome sensei and Ikeda sensei. public knowledge. story of Ikeda sensei taking lesson at Aiki Expo. brought in Ushiro sensei from karate to teach and learn. saw Saotome watched karate stuffs and adopt it to his take from aikido angle. do all kind of bridge and friendship seminars with other teachers so we call can learn from each others. the list goes on and on.

question you should ask: if Ikeda studied under Saotome, who was an uchideshi of O Sensei, what need was he to learn from others? not only Saotome did not forbid it, but encouraged it. what does that shows the characters of the two men?

i have no problem stating that i want to be better. however, do you know how hard it is to catch up with Ikeda sensei? the man is a ferocious learner and practitioner. yup, he's my role model.

I can 'let it be' more, I can accept it more so I am more centered, I can address people on the subject in a more non-disturbing manner. All in all with more Ki.

Reality is a powerful thing and important to remain anchored to; I'm glad you feel more centred now, whilst we may not share opinions on topics I was most impressed by the calm posting manner you displayed previously such as when you came under fire regarding people's views on your videos but remained unruffled.

Dan Harden is planning on visiting Greg sometime this summer. If that is not an open event, Dan will be back at my place 9/9-9/11. Details to follow soon. I strongly urge you to make effort to attend a seminar by someone who can teach IS. My own personal experiences have led me to make a dedicated effort to learn as much as I can from Dan. He has an excellent teaching methodology, combined with a great sense of humor. He is very skilled and has a great attitude toward sharing his experiences with others while supporting their efforts as well.

The differences and similarities that you are trying to process will become a lot clearer after getting some hands-on experience.

Cordially,

Marc Abrams

Abrams sensei,

Thanks very much for your sharing and suggestion. I'm not sure if I can make the seminar at your dojo in Sep, but I will try to attend one as soon as I can.

We are now in the Youtube era, not having a public video out and a basic biography public is just a little weird in todays world.

Hi Jonathan,

A look at the comment section of Youtube will give you an idea of the general level of ignorance when it comes to assessing martial arts videos. This is especially true for "aiki" arts. Most aikido videos are littered with trollish and ignorant comments. The sad part is that these comments are not always from people outside aikido, but by aikidoka who as soon as they see something that externally looks different to what they do, they attack it or dismiss it based on nothing but especulation. As for exponents of aiki/IP training, Akuzawa and Ushiro have videos on Youtube... which are also received by ignorant comments from people without direct experience in what these men do. So these videos are only useful to those who've had direct experience or have a knowledge of what's going on.

As for background checks, if some of these aiki/IP exponents are teaching teachers and high-ranking students in aikido, and are invited over and over to teach at established aikido schools, does it matter who they trained with? I think the sponsorship by teachers (it's not just one, a quick look at seminar announcements will give you a broader idea) and established dojo is more than enough. Who you trained with guarantees nothing about what you can do; experience-based reviews from fellow aikidoka have more weight (at least for me).

Would you mind explaining in simpler terms so we might not miss the point, as I share Tom's misunderstanding on that one...

Hi Rich.
I can but try.

I have said as much in previous posts and it is one of those views that by observation are not widely held in truth and action but believed to be the case.

When thoroughly viewed you see and conceptualize what something thus would look like if it truly was the case.

If a Teacher truly holds to that principle then he would be free of the need to control etc, all the principles as no different to the ones I mention like non-control etc. So the understanding of what I mean doesn't come from how he treats students and whether they are happily progressing, the test comes in WHEN the students are up to such a great or envisioned standard.

Ha, ha, thats why I find it quite amusing to see all the theories about what O'Sensei envisioned for the future of Aikido for mostly I see views based on control, imposing will, must be's etc all in the name of 'keeping it real' or looking after the integrity of the art etc.

Back to the point at hand. I'll use myself as an example here if you don't mind.

I insist, and if I was an organization it would be therefore translated as some kind of policy or part of the structure of teaching and grading, that at a certain point it is the responsibility of the student to start their own 'school' under their own name associated to me only by reference.

Like a tree who's responsibility is looking after and feeding and nurturing it's own 'fruit' until it is ready to leave and become it's own tree.

In my Aikido I thus have told my students if they want to reach such levels I can help them as best I can but part of the structure is that they would then be responsible for teaching under their own banner, calling their Aikido a name that befits their 'way' even though being based on the same principles.

How does this work and why?

Because, as I jokingly say to let's say a lady who teaches ballet who comes to me for Aikido. I tell her that it's interesting that if she ever get's to such a standard and wanted to then she would have to start her own 'school' and maybe she could call it 'balletkido.'

That's good jokes but more importantly is this reason: I tell my son the same and he is a very good musician, his world is music. that's his universe.

Therefore if he was to do the same I would expect him to use the same principles but unlike me he would be able to relate them to, translate them and communicate them in terms of music thus he could reach and help musicians who wanted to do Aikido far better than I could.

That doesn't mean his Aikido would have a musical name for through his experience and realizations he might call in Kannagara Aikido or whatever. The point is in any books he wrote or writings he did he would be very good at musical analogies.

Free, uncontrolled by me, yet teaching the same principles his way. Natural progression.

If someone says they want to do it exactly the same as me and thus call it the same the I would say no. I would say go away and notice the difference between you and me and thus find your true way which will serve the same ends.

The next semi-open event I will have with Dan will be sometime in November or early December - have not set a date yet.

However, with that said, I am having a training session this Saturday at my place in Lancaster county with five of us that has trained with Dan before as well as a couple of newbies. You are only a couple hours away and if you are interested, send me a private email and I will give you more detail.

Greg

Greg,

Thanks for the info and invitation. I'm very interested in practicing with your group, unfortunately I can't make it this time. Do you guys do that regularly? Please keep me in the loop and I will try to pay a visit next time. BTW, I will try to visit Steve Trinkle sensei's dojo some time soon.

Thanks for the info and invitation. I'm very interested in practicing with your group, unfortunately I can't make it this time. Do you guys do that regularly? Please keep me in the loop and I will try to pay a visit next time. BTW, I will try to visit Steve Trinkle sensei's dojo some time soon.

Thanks again!

Ting

Unfortunately, I am in and out of town a lot this summer so I do not have a regular schedule of Training - However, in the fall I will and in the mean time I will put you on my distribution list if you send me your email address in a PM.

I see your are familiar with Steve - I was going to suggest you visit him in the interim - your ki must be strong already to know I was going to do that

Thanks for the info and invitation. I'm very interested in practicing with your group, unfortunately I can't make it this time. Do you guys do that regularly? Please keep me in the loop and I will try to pay a visit next time. BTW, I will try to visit Steve Trinkle sensei's dojo some time soon.

Thanks again!

Ting

Hello Ting,

You are more then welcome to visit us any time. I'm sure we would have fun. Please know that as far as IP/IS stuff goes, I am just at the very beginning of my studies into what Dan is showing and I know that I don't know what I'm doing. In a word, I suck. But I am astounded by what I've felt and seen with Dan and his students and am determined to keep at it and improve. It's like finding something you didn't know you were looking for.

I've taken ukemi for people (dan grades, at that) who've trained for decades, and felt the tension in their arms as they execute the technique, knowing I could stop them; i've also trained with people (from another dojo/organisation) who haven't trained for even ten years, aren't a dan grade, and are immensely powerful and unstoppable.

I think a teaching method that has the highest success rate is the best one. You can say 'Just train.' - but just train what? If you're never given any actual instruction, why bother with an instructor?
Making sure that you effectively, and quickly, teach aiki is the best route, surely: it ensures the survival of the art; that people keep coming back; and that you have people to practice with.

Dear Graham,
Do not get confused with the idea of simply training.Simply training with sensei who do not /are not competent /teach poor skills simply trains you in a manner which is non productive.
To be the a good as you can be you need to select your teachers.If you train with the best available , you should at least in theory become reasonably skilled.You have to use your common sense.No point in wasting valuable time without some sense of reward? for your efforts.
Are you still training with I.G? cheers, Joe.

That's good jokes but more importantly is this reason: I tell my son the same and he is a very good musician, his world is music. that's his universe.

Therefore if he was to do the same I would expect him to use the same principles but unlike me he would be able to relate them to, translate them and communicate them in terms of music thus he could reach and help musicians who wanted to do Aikido far better than I could.

That doesn't mean his Aikido would have a musical name for through his experience and realizations he might call in Kannagara Aikido or whatever. The point is in any books he wrote or writings he did he would be very good at musical analogies.

Free, uncontrolled by me, yet teaching the same principles his way. Natural progression.

Hi Graham,

Good post, I recently read a superb book which combines music with martial arts. Zen Guitar - by Philip Toshio Sudo. A beautiful parallel between the practice of learning the instrument, the practice and philosophy of zen and the levels reached in martial arts. Well worth a read for anyone practicing the guitar, or with a love of music, maybe of less interesting for martial artists. It certainly changed my approach to learning and playing the instrument. I'd be very surprised if both you and your son didn't enjoy it, if you haven't read it already.

Good post, I recently read a superb book which combines music with martial arts. Zen Guitar - by Philip Toshio Sudo. A beautiful parallel between the practice of learning the instrument, the practice and philosophy of zen and the levels reached in martial arts. Well worth a read for anyone practicing the guitar, or with a love of music, maybe of less interesting for martial artists. It certainly changed my approach to learning and playing the instrument. I'd be very surprised if both you and your son didn't enjoy it, if you haven't read it already.

Dear Graham,
Do not get confused with the idea of simply training.Simply training with sensei who do not /are not competent /teach poor skills simply trains you in a manner which is non productive.
To be the a good as you can be you need to select your teachers.If you train with the best available , you should at least in theory become reasonably skilled.You have to use your common sense.No point in wasting valuable time without some sense of reward? for your efforts.
Are you still training with I.G? cheers, Joe.

I know exactly what you mean, yeah.
I've trained in four or five styles, so i'm well-worn...

I haven't been able to train with Ian for about six months now, unfortunately - and just when I started to make some decent progress, too; i've been unable to afford the trip; I make it to train with a great teacher in Congleton - who is heavily influenced by Seishiro Endo sensei, who is probably my favourite aikidoka - occasionally, as the trip is short and cheap.

Hi Greg.
I call my last comment to you ma-ai which may indeed fit with ying and yang in one respect.

Here's another fundamental difference between what I teach and many other ways. You may or may not find this interesting.

In my way of Ki or spiritual Aikido there is a major 'principle' difference. The principle I refer to is non-disturbance.

This in turn means the aim of Aikido the way I do it is not to disturb the opponents centre or disrupt there centre or any of the other disruptions generally held to be the case.

Respectfully.G.

Hi Graham,

Just got back from my beer misogi in the hot tub - I conducted a little training session on IS and its application into a few basic Daito Ryu techniques today - nothing better than beer and hot tub to get the mind and body loosened up and connected into harmony

Quote:

You may or may not find this interesting.

Graham, I always find what you say interesting - however, most of the time I jam lust trying to figure out what you are saying

Quote:

In my way of Ki or spiritual Aikido there is a major 'principle' difference. The principle I refer to is non-disturbance.

This in turn means the aim of Aikido the way I do it is not to disturb the opponents centre or disrupt there centre or any of the other disruptions generally held to be the case.

OK, Graham, that all sounds nice, but it sounds more like a group hug than a martial art defense. If you do not take uke's center by disrupting his balance, just how do you gain control of an attack ?

Just got back from my beer misogi in the hot tub - I conducted a little training session on IS and its application into a few basic Daito Ryu techniques today - nothing better than beer and hot tub to get the mind and body loosened up and connected into harmony

Graham, I always find what you say interesting - however, most of the time I jam lust trying to figure out what you are saying

OK, Graham, that all sounds nice, but it sounds more like a group hug than a martial art defense. If you do not take uke's center by disrupting his balance, just how do you gain control of an attack ?

Your Friend in Dis-harmony
Greg

Dis-harmony? Is that referring to ma-ai? (dis short for distance?)

I'm glad it feels like a group hug, that's how it should feel.

Also along with the principle of non-disturbance is the principle of non-control. (all part of non-resistance) I had a brief tete a tete on precisely this on the 'general' forum earlier today.

There is no 'controlling' Once again a subject addressed on the General forum on a thread by Ron Ragusa.

There is however blending with and following the paths of non-resistance.

Greg, just to inform you the thread I mention above is entitled 'Hard before Soft ???'

My basic tenets I adhere to are from Statements by O'Sensei and indeed Tohei. Not from the view that they are mistranslations but from the view that spiritually they make sense. Statements like 'There is no attacker in Aikido for the moment he attacks he has already lost' (may not be word perfect) If I'm not mistaken Ki Aikido and Tohei prefered to use the term 'partner' instead of opponent. Another thing that physically and analytically don't make sense but spiritually makes perfect sense.