Now, aside from that, destreza has two forms, one of which was a simplified military version.

more than two, depending on the time frame and how you slice it. it's not quite accurate to say that one was a simplified military version. it's more accurate to call it common, as it's the pre-existing one from which the 'verdadera' arose. conceptually, it's much simpler, but technically, the 'verdadera' destreza is simpler.

Originally Posted by Permalost

The thing that immediately stood out to me was the estoca and parada, which are the 2 basic stances in my style of arnis.

does that style have any relation to villabrille? as far as i can tell, the usage of those terms always lead back to him. (btw, it's estocada in the book, and the terms in spanish fencing mean much different things than they do in villabrille's arnis).

Anyway, tim_stl, I wish we COULD meet up and discuss this stuff. While I do have a car, my brother constantly has it and even that won't matter come next month. I'm going back to college in the Chicago Loop, so I won't really even have a need for a car.

i'm no stranger to chicago - i go up there at least twice a year, and have been up there twice in the past three months. i'll be up there again in the spring. in the meantime, stop guessing, stop taking the 'history' that you're fed by fma instructors as gospel, and do some research.

I'm jumping in here as I agree with a lot of what's been said. Speaking from my own experience in teaching and training in numerous Philipino arts. I can say that stick, knife, and empty hand do follow the same basic concepts. However application for each definitely varies. Distance is a key factor. The longer the weapon the more distance you need. Impact vs edged weapon is also a factor with the amount of power needed to do damage. Swinging your empty hand the same way you would swing a weapon only works if for the most part all you're throwing is Hammerfist strikes.

With that in mind I have seen people very skilled at empty hand use weapons very well. Boxers punching with a knife in their hand would do a lot of damage. The only thing is none of them practice it, rightfully so, as it's not what they're training to do.

Footwork was mentioned and for the street application I teach it all the same. As for competition it's different with lead leg and power hand being different than using a weapon. The one benefit to swinging a stick is increased hand speed for empty hand techniques. This could also be accomplished by using a small dumbbell as well though.

I've never heard of Philipino trench warfare but I'd be interested in seeing something about it.

Spanish fencing is a lot more current. xD So called "Broad swords" were used all over Europe prior to the renaissance, and Spain is in Europe.

But when the Spanish became involved in the PI, they weren't carrying broadswords so much as weapons more like this:

And the spear/lance has always been a pretty important weapon too.

Originally Posted by tim_stl

more than two, depending on the time frame and how you slice it. it's not quite accurate to say that one was a simplified military version. it's more accurate to call it common, as it's the pre-existing one from which the 'verdadera' arose. conceptually, it's much simpler, but technically, the 'verdadera' destreza is simpler.

Interesting. Do you recommend any sources on Spanish fighting arts?

does that style have any relation to villabrille? as far as i can tell, the usage of those terms always lead back to him. (btw, it's estocada in the book, and the terms in spanish fencing mean much different things than they do in villabrille's arnis).

tim

Yeah, my teacher was one of Ben Largusa's students in the 70s, became a guro of the system, then became a student of Cacoy Canete in the 80s, so there's a bit of a mishmash.

Yeah, just from the picture, it appears that parada and estoc(ad)a are different from the aris terms; I just thought it was an interesting note. Do you know what the Spanish terms mean? Does estoca have anything to do with estoc (thrusting sword)?

Originally Posted by tim_stl

if we were closer, i could show you. if you get out to the midwest or southern florida, or if i get down to so cal, we can meet up. a wider stance doesn't limit mobility or explosiveness, you just have to change the way you think about it.

tim

I'd like that. I recognize that a low stance can be used quickly and explosively (9 years of CLF and being a fencing enthusiast has shown me lots of examples), but there's a time and a place, and kung fu and TSD taught me that the time and place was all the time and everywhere, and untraining that has proven very useful to me.

It's in their philippines section, but even that doesn't say a terrible lot.

At the onset of war, the Filipino army used the conventional method of trench warfare and open charges. If you’ve seen movies like The Patriot and movies about Napoleon, you would have an idea of how the Filipino army fought foolishly marching head high in open battle fields before they finally resorted to guerilla warfare.

Warfare in which the opposing sides attack, counterattack, and defend from sets of trenches dug into the ground. It was developed by Vauban, Sébastien Le Prestre in the 17th century for laying siege to fortresses. Its defensive use was first institutionalized as a tactic during the American Civil War. It reached its highest development in World War I. Little used in World War II, it reappeared in the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s. A typical construction consisted of two to four parallel trenches, each dug in a zigzag, protected by sandbags, and floored with wooden planks. The parallel trenches were connected by a series of communication trenches dug roughly perpendicular to them. The first row was fronted by barbed wire and contained machine-gun emplacements; the rear trenches housed most of the troops. Increased use of tanks marked the end of trench warfare, since tanks were invulnerable to the machine-gun and rifle fire used by entrenched soldiers.

I was actually looking at this very article when you responded. Where does it say that trenches were used in the Philipines?

But when the Spanish became involved in the PI, they weren't carrying broadswords so much as weapons more like this:

not precisely. the sabre wasn't widely used in western europe until the 18th century. when the spaniards became involved with the philippines in the 16th century, their military and civilian swords looked more like this:

Originally Posted by Permalost

Interesting. Do you recommend any sources on Spanish fighting arts?

not in english, not yet. that should change in the next couple years.

Originally Posted by Permalost

Yeah, just from the picture, it appears that parada and estoc(ad)a are different from the aris terms; I just thought it was an interesting note. Do you know what the Spanish terms mean? Does estoca have anything to do with estoc (thrusting sword)?

kinda. estocada means thrust, parada means parry. the image you posted shows the thrust of second, the parry of sixth, and the three parts of the salute. most likely, that manual is derived from italian sabre methods. do you have a link to the thread on the vikingsword forum where it was discussed?

Originally Posted by Permalost

I'd like that. I recognize that a low stance can be used quickly and explosively (9 years of CLF and being a fencing enthusiast has shown me lots of examples), but there's a time and a place, and kung fu and TSD taught me that the time and place was all the time and everywhere, and untraining that has proven very useful to me.

that's funny - i usually have the opposite problem of getting people to be willing to try to use them at all. :)

how long have you studied fma, and what styles? were any of them from pampanga, or luzon at all? or is all of your knowledge from sinawali from inosanto drills?

I missed out on mentioning this earlier when you posted this, although I've mentioned this much already, I'm going to put more emphasis on it now because it is of special importance to this particular discussion.

Sinawali is not just a drill. It's the entire blue print for how FMA works. It is MY opinion that Sinawali is hands down one of the most important things you can practice in any form of FMA stick/sword/knife fighting simply because each movement means something, as does each chamber of the stick/swords/knife(knives).

Angle 1 is a downward slice from the right shoulder and it is immediately chambered up on the shoulder; protecting the neck. That same movement is your umbrella/roof block which EASILY turns into your Dog Brother's style bolo uppercut. That's just one very short example and I'm sure all of you know how a sinawali drill works, but that's the foundation of this topic, I think.

In empty hand, just as in stick or knife, your attack is automatically supposed to turn into your defense, your second strike can be just as destructive depending on circumstance and in a flash, the first strike you threw automatically becomes your counter attack. It would seem that based on the circumstance, the principle of "block, check, counter" can generate almost any combination of attacks and defenses based on the weapons in play or lack thereof.

This principle is the blue print for how single stick can take on double stick and win, vice versa and how all other weapons have the potential to win or lose against each other. It's not just a series of strikes and chambers.