Hunts gather for last tally-ho - Page 2

I understand where you are coming from, Nightowl. The Kurds and other Iraqis wasn't the reason Bliar gave to Britain for our involvement - instead, he told us that Saddam had WMD which could be deployed against UK assets within 45 minutes. It was a lie, and many people have a problem with that. If humanity was at the bottom of it all, why not just say so? It's hardly as if the US and UK weren't aware of the problems suffered by the Kurds and Iraqis - in 1991 we had the opportunity to help them, but let them down, and Saddam's revenge upon them was merciless. Was anything done about it even then? No. Was it about ridding the world of a dangerous and repressive regime? Possibly, but there are plenty of regimes around the world that continue to repress their people with impunity. We are even friends with some of them - Saudi Arabia, for example. The 'you had an empire so why are you criticising us now' argument is one that many Americans use when Brits are critical. Countries that had empires in the past have generally learnt the lessons; this may be why they are so cautious of expeditionary adventures now. You say that 'we as a country have never invaded and occupied a country and called its borders home.' - the Native Americans might disagree. I do not doubt that the US learned from the past too, and did not hesitate to criticise the Serbs when they killed ethnic Albanians in Kosovo and deprived them of their land. Whatever the rights and wrongs, however, the lack of an exit strategy and failure to properly appreciate local culture has led to the Iraq adventure becoming a mess by any standard - unless you are a shareholder in Halliburton. Even after the introduction of democracy, I dare say that in 20 years time the tribal nature of Arab culture will lead to Iraq being dominated by one side or the other. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to believe that America turns its head to the world's problems in anything other than a (entirely sensible) selective and self-interested way - otherwise it would have signed up to the Kyoto agreement, for example - so it would be unreasonable to expect other countries not to be critical of policy occassionally. Don't get me wrong, my problem is with Bliar, not the US.

Precisely. Â Bliar is so far up the chimp's backside only the soles of his feet show. Â Far from being forthright, he's about as devious as they come (he is a lawyer, after all). Bliar has failed to deliver on most of his pre-election manifesto, with the notable exception of the dismal hunting ban. It doesn't surprise me, and I didn't vote for him, but he has let down the sheep who support Labour just as much as everyone else. Taxes have increased significantly, as has public spending and borrowing. Â He has led us into a war on the basis of a lie. Â He has significantly failed the armed forces. Â He has overseen rises in the rate of violent and other crime. Â His policy on terrorism is entirely duplicitous - he claims to be part of the war on terror whilst shamelessly appeasing terrorists in Northern Ireland. Â He has failed to deal with the problems which resulted from his weak stance on immigration. Â He has failed to deal properly with dishonest Ministers. Â Much of his personal behaviour has been suspect - freeloading holidays, patronage of donors to his party and inappropriate use of military aircraft. Â His wife has inappropriately capitalised on his position, bringing it into disrepute with her association with conmen and profiteering. Â He is about as genuine as a Chinese Rolex. Charlatan? Absolutely. Â And a cheat, conman and other things beginning with c, too. Â

Whatever the rights and wrongs, however, the lack of an exit strategy and failure to properly appreciate local culture has led to the Iraq adventure becoming a mess by any standard - unless you are a shareholder in Halliburton. Â Even after the introduction of democracy, I dare say that in 20 years time the tribal nature of Arab culture will lead to Iraq being dominated by one side or the other.

This I do agree with, the exit stratagey sucks, and in the end it will return to a religious state, but hopefully with more freedoms and less persecutions.

Quote:

You say that 'we as a country have never invaded and occupied a country and called its borders home.' - the Native Americans might disagree.

I dare say chap, remeber now, this was thrust upon the USA originally, by the empires of Spain and Britian, remember this was a settled colony of the British empire, not an invasion by the US, we as a people made natural expansion of the land unsettled, and the Native Americans struggled with the white man, there were no true squatters rights on unclaimed and unlived land of the west, and the indians fought to keep the settlers away...but our history as a nations does not compare to the histories of the old world.

VB, I was glad to read your views, which mirror mine in many ways. I got into such a debate before on the SF, which was ill-advised on my part, just as it is ill-advised for me to get into a political debate with one of my closest friends, who is a Libertarian (I assume you know about that party?). Now, he and I avoid politics, as it leads to too much turmoil, as it leads to nothing.

Absolutely, now back to the fox, should old traditions be ridded itself for politcal correctness....I am so tired of everyone worrying about the dreaded "PC"....smoking, I quit many years ago, but who am I to stop a tradition dating back 1000's of years, for example. Everyone says it effects the air they breath, yet these same people drive the gas guzzling SUV's that put out disturbing and toxic fumes that are killing the world. The world has become an ironic twist of me me me...everyone with their own agendas, hence the fox, we have to save the fox.

Nightowl, good point. I can recall being lectured on the dreadful effects my smoking tobacco has on the populace, especially children, by some 17 year old soap dodging parasitic so called "eco warrior". He was suddenly defensive and unable to provide an answer when I casually inquired if had he ever travelled in a vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine, rather than walk. It takes more than being lazy, smelly and in dire need of a haircut before I will accept someone's "expert" opinion without challenge. He probably went home crying in his mum's Volvo estate, or 4x4.