I have lost all my faith for Holland already. I f he hasn't been able to get a deal done already then why must i wait patiently for a trade today instead of a week or 2 ago?

Think for yourself. Question authority. Throughout human history as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are or where we are going in this ocean of chance, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.

I have lost all my faith for Holland already. If he hasn't been able to get a deal done already then why must i wait patiently for a trade today instead of a week or 2 ago?

Think for yourself. Question authority. Throughout human history as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are or where we are going in this ocean of chance, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.

Well one of them was less than 5 seasons ago, but yeah ten years was a close guess.

If you really honestly think or expect them to win the cup every year you are delusional, no offense meant man. The way pro sports have turned you will be very hard pressed to see teams like the Old School Canadiens or Islanders or Oilers, it just isn't going to happen.Now do I want my teams to win it every year, hell yes!Am I upset when they don't, Hell yeah!But I can look back at the season and say, this year has been a success, Holland has put things in place so that next year I have the ability to hope the team wins it.Where as if I was a fan of say Florida, Tampa, Philly, L.A. Kings, Toronto, Buffalo, etc.... I would look at next season and say "Holy f*** we suck again" which is why fans of most teams think Wings' fans are spoiled. Because for the last 15 years the team has been a top contending team, besides the Devils and Wings name me one team that has been as consistently successful over that time frame.Now name me GM's in that time frame who have held their job as long as Holland, How many teams have made busts of trades in that time frame. ATL last year got hosed for making a big deal at the deadline that screwed their team in the post season to the tune of a sweep by the almighty RAGS!!!!!!Sometimes it is not the move you make, but the move you don't make.

Would I like to see Hossa in the Winged Wheel you bet you socks I do, but I don't know if Holland couldn't work his salary into the wings plans.

And don't give me that crap about you don't care about next year as long as they win it this year. Because next year you will probably be on here saying the same thing.

Edit: I am not sure letting go of Bert was a failing grade, same with Calder, Lang was a good move and regardless of his status on this board was a playoff performer and without him this team probably doesn't leave the SJ series last year.

Wow refreshing. The voice of reason. The expectations among posters here is completely unreasonable. Our front office is the best in hockey. Every year when contenders are discussed it begins with the Detroit Red Wings. They do an amazing job of balancing win now versus the long term health of the franchise. If it wasnt for this philosophy over the past 20 years I am reasonably sure we wouldnt even be here having this discussion.

Cant lose sight of the fact that every year only one team can win the cup and at the level of parity in hockey there are 6 or 8 teams every year with a legitimate shot.

I'd hardly call that the voice of reason. Or refreshing, for that matter.

"Blah blah blah GUYS WE TOTALLY CAN'T WIN EVERY YEAR IT'S OK IF WE DON'T WIN FOR ANOTHER TWENTY YEARS BECAUSE WE WON IN '97, '98 AND '02 AND TORONTO HASN'T WON IN DECADES blah blah blah ALL YOU GUYS DO IS COMPLAIN WELL LET ME TELL YOU ONLY ONE TEAM CAN WIN THE CUP blah blah blah...."

Side note: whiskey or vodka?

Edited by Dabura, 26 February 2008 - 11:53 AM.

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

I'd hardly call that the voice of reason. Or refreshing, for that matter.

"Blah blah blah GUYS WE TOTALLY CAN'T WIN EVERY YEAR IT'S OK IF WE DON'T WIN FOR ANOTHER TWENTY YEARS BECAUSE WE WON IN '97, '98 AND '02 AND TORONTO HASN'T WON IN DECADES blah blah blah ALL YOU GUYS DO IS COMPLAIN WELL LET ME TELL YOU ONLY ONE TEAM CAN WIN THE CUP blah blah blah...."

Side note: whiskey or vodka?

Oh I am sorry, but the constant ranting over this team sucking, players on this team sucking, the GM sucking, the owner sucking, blah blah blah, that is your idea of original.

Look at the number of threads that in the beginning of the season Howard was trade bait, Osgood washed up, Hasek sucks, Flip sucks, Hudler, Lilja, Rafalski, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, so on and so on. Most people on this board over react and then change their opinions. The only person on this team that has not been dogged on is Lids, but that is what you get when you are bar none the best player at your position.

You want a team that does things differently, find another team to root for, this team is a contender every year, plays top notch hockey, and has the same trading and UFA tendencies every year. They play it safe to keep the young talented prospects around so that they don't mortgage the future for a rental player. Their goal is not a shot at the cup this year, but a shot at the cup every year.

You obviously are too young or weren't watching Hockey during the dead things era, it would have taught you something called perspective which based on your posts you have none.

All you want is your team to win every year, you don't care about next year until next year gets here.

Even if the Wings go out and get Ollie from Fla and Hossa from Atl they could lose the cup, then next year you professional second guesser, arm chair GM's, whatever you want to call yourselves would be on this same board next year griping about the fact that Holland traded the future for Hossa who signed with another team. And then we would have to read all of the Fleischman-esque threads about how Holland f***ed up.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too, physically impossible.

I will make you a deal, if the wings make no moves and win the cup you must attach a Ken Holland is a genius and I am an idiot quote to your sig. And if they make no moves and lose in the first round I will attach a Ken Holland is an idiot and so am I quote to my sig.Edit: to stay on your sig for the whole of next season!!!

If they win the cup after making a move well then neither of us is wrong, the move was necessary and Holland did his job!

Oh and BTW: Scotch or Vodka but rarely Whiskey.

Edited by Opie, 26 February 2008 - 12:08 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

If Holland doesn't get a good 2nd line scorer or depth D-Man...I'd be VERY suprised if we even made it to the WCF

We won't make it out of the second round. You would think sirens would be going off that signal a need for change when year after year we have an amazing regular season, and fall apart right around playoff time. This is not a stanley cup winning team.

These were-

1996-97 Season In Review

It was the year the ultimate prize finally came back to Detroit, but it was a season which concluded under tragic circumstances.

Nine Wings – Canada's Steve Yzerman, Paul Coffey and Keith Primeau, Russia's Vyacheslav Kozlov, Igor Larionov, Sergei Fedorov and Viacheslav Fetisov and Sweden's Nicklas Lidstrom and Tomas Holmstrom – participated in the pre-season World Cup, along with Detroit assistant coach Barry Smith, who worked with the Swedes and trainer John Wharton, who served with the Russians.

An October trade brought left-winger Brendan Shanahan to Detroit and hope to Hockeytown. Shanahan led the club with 47 goals and 88 points and was aware of his status. "I'm not saying I'm the missing piece of the (Stanley Cup) puzzle," Shanahan said. "But I definitely think I can be a big piece in that puzzle."

Shanahan, Yzerman and Fetisov played in the NHL All-Star Game and Shanahan tied a club record February 12 with three goals in one period of a 7-1 win against San Jose. Sergei Fedorov scored all five goals December 26 as the Wings edged Washington 5-4. A scoreless tie December 10 with Edmonton was Detroit's first 0-0 game since 1976-77.

Before the playoffs commenced, a score was settled. Colorado came to town March 26 and a brawl saw Detroit's Darren McCarty pummel Colorado's Claude Lemieux, exacting revenge for Lemieux's cheap shot on Kris Draper in the 1996 playoffs. McCarty scored the game-winner after 39 seconds of overtime to give Detroit a 6-5 win and much more.

Officially, the inscriptions on Lord Stanley's mug weren't earned until a sweep of Philadelphia in the final series, following series wins over St. Louis, Anaheim and Colorado en route to Detroit's date with destiny. The party was sweet and sadly, short. Less than a week after their first Cup triumph in 42 seasons, Fetisov, Konstantinov and team masseur Sergei Mnatsakanov were injured in a limousine crash, the latter two suffering career-ending closed-head injuries.

"For a team as close as us, for this to finish it off, it's the worst thing that could ever happen," forward Mathieu Dandenault said.1997-98 Season in Review

The campaign commenced with heavy hearts and a specific goal in mind, a sentiment expressed on the shoulders of every Red Wings jersey.

"Believe," said the crest in Russian and English. While defenseman Vladimir Konstantinov and team masseur Sergei Mnatsakanov fought the battle of their lives to overcome brain injuries suffered in an off-season limousine accident, the Wings set about on their mission to retain Lord Stanley's mug without their fallen comrades.

They'd also have to start the season without center Sergei Fedorov, holding out in a contract dispute with the team.

A 10-1-2 start to the season got the Wings rolling, but there would be periods of struggle - enough to allow Dallas to claim first place in the Central Division, three points ahead of Detroit, which finished 44-23-15.

Captain Steve Yzerman led the club with 69 points, the first time he'd been Detroit's leading scorer since 1992-93. Brendan Shanahan's 28 goals were the lowest total to top the team in 21 seasons. Winger Doug Brown tied two club marks December 19 with three goals and four points in one period of a 5-4 victory over New Jersey.

The return of Fedorov to the lineup came February 3, when he signed a six-year, $38-million deal, which included a $14-million signing bonus and a $12-million bonus if the Wings advanced to the final four.

The NHL went to the Winter Olympics for the first time and the Wings were well represented. Yzerman and Shanahan (Canada), Fedorov (Russia) and defenseman Nicklas Lidstrom (Sweden) all participated. Shanahan, Lidstrom, center Igor Larionov and defenseman Slava Fetisov performed in the NHL All-Star Game.

In the playoffs, winger Slava Kozlov scored a record-tying four game winners, while the club set records with 75 goals and six shorthanded markers. Fedorov's 10 goals during the playoffs and three points May 3 in the second period of a 5-2 series-clinching win over Phoenix tied team marks.

After rallying from a 2-1 series deficit to oust Phoenix in six games, St. Louis won the first game of the second round, but Detroit again came back to win in six. The Wings never trailed the Western Conference final against Dallas, taking another six-game verdict. Only Washington stood in the way of a repeat. The Capitals were swept aside in the minimum four games and Stanley stayed put in Hockeytown.

2001-02 Season in Review

n the spring of 2001, for the first time in seven years, the Stanley Cup had been decided without a single round being decided in Detroit's favor. You didn't need to be a member of the Red Wings organization to know that such failure wouldn't fly. Within days of their first-round upset at the hands of the Los Angeles Kings, the wheels of change were set in motion, with six-time Vezina Trophy-winning goalie Dominik Hasek arriving from Buffalo. Hasek would handle the stopping and free agents Luc Robitaille and Brett Hull were signed to beef up the club's goal-scoring potency. The Wings jumped from the gate like Secretariat in the Belmont, leaving all challengers behind. Rolling to a 28-12-6-3 start, they were the talk of the hockey world, winning the President's Trophy as NHL regular-season champions with 116 points.

As befitting a team of great legends, milestone performances abounded. Reigning Norris Trophy holder Nicklas Lidstrom garnered two assists Oct. 12 in a 4-2 win over Buffalo to surpass Reed Larson (570 points) as Detroit's all-time top-scoring defenseman. Brendan Shanahan beat Colorado's Patrick Roy March 23 to record his 500th NHL goal. He also garnered his 1,000th NHL point. Scotty Bowman coached his NHL-record 1,200th game and joined Jack Adams as the only men to post 400 wins as Wings coach. When Steve Yzerman set up Mathieu Dandenault's overtime winner Jan. 20 against Ottawa, it gave the Detroit captain 1,000 NHL assists. Robitaille joined Yzerman and Hull in the NHL's exclusive 600-goal club Nov. 9 at Anaheim, but didn't' stop there. Jan. 18 against Washington, Robitaille scored his 612th career goal, to surpass Brett's dad Bobby Hull as the all-time leading goal scorer among left wingers in NHL history. Lidstrom won the Norris Trophy as the NHL's top defenseman, but for all the history they made, only one bauble interested this group - Lord Stanley's mug. The Cup would make a comeback to Detroit, but not without first providing a couple of frightening moments. The Wings dropped their first two games of their first-round series on home ice against Vancouver, then rallied to win the set in six. St. Louis fell easily in five games in the second round, leaving Colorado the last team in the way of a return trip to the Stanley Cup Finals.

When the Avalanche grabbed a 3-2 series lead, things looked grim. But Hasek delivered back-to-back shutouts, the second coming in a memorable 7-0 Game 7 rout in which the Wings chased long-time nemesis Roy to the bench. The upstart Carolina Hurricanes upset the applecart with a Game 1 OT win at the JLA, but the Wings prevailed in a five-game final series. This golden team had provided Hockeytown another silver lining.

And until we can put teams together with more scorers, and depth we will remain a regular season champ, and nothing else. I understand the cap, so we will have to work a little differently. Instead of nipple feeding 5-10 "untouchable" prospects we may in fact have to move 1 or 2 to get a guy like Hossa, or anyone along those lines. But nope, people get attached, and say "but what about in 5 years", or some quasi analytical attempt at favoring the insulation of any possible trade bait we have. Until then, get used to watching highlight tapes of the years past, cause there will not be a cup here anytime soon.

"B*tch may be the new black, but black is the new President, b*tch." - Tracey Morgan, Saturday Night Live, March 15, 2008

NO!< not those two why would anyone appreciate them, it is not like they are top 25 in league or anything right now, bunch of bums!!!!!!!

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

Oh I am sorry, but the constant ranting over this team sucking, players on this team sucking, the GM sucking, the owner sucking, blah blah blah, that is your idea of original.

I am sick of people who refuse to acknowledge the fact that we are inept in getting it done in the playoffs. Just because you are happy with a 45 + win regular season and nothing else doesn't mean everyone else is.

"B*tch may be the new black, but black is the new President, b*tch." - Tracey Morgan, Saturday Night Live, March 15, 2008

Opie, that right there is a microcosm of your perspective's shortcomings; you're relying on huge generalizations and assumptions, as well as a general lack of good old-fashioned rationality. That people point out this team's weaknesses and call for them to be addressed is not proof that they're fair-weather fans who are "too young to blah blah blah" and should "find another team because blah blah blah" and want to "have their cake and eat it too blah blah blah."

This team has issues and they need to be addressed. Simple as that. Some people, myself included, simply aren't impressed with regular season success and the fact that the Wings won back-to-back cups a decade ago and bought the Cup in '02.

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

If Holland is telling the truth, and he doesn't make a move for a legit second line player, it's clear he's completely scared based on the Bertuzzi deal last year.

As it is, this team more than likely doesn't win the Stanley Cup. Anaheim is right there with us, Dallas has improved. We'll have a chance, but we clearly won't be the favorite anymore. I understand that you don't want to go Pierre Lacroix and completely sell off every player in your organization, but you have to take a chance when the window is open.

There are very, very few players in our organization that are can't-miss guys. We're not talking about Ovechkins. Howard looks like a player. I didn't see a ton of the last couple games but people seem to think Ericsson looks like a stud, so include him if you want. Apart from that? These aren't guys who we should be above moving in the right deal.

It doesn't make any sense to me to sit by with your thumb up your butt when you're this close to having a phenomenal shot to win the Cup. "We're going to take a half-assed shot at this, but at least we'll have Justin Abdelkader." Come on. You can't puss out on future deadline deals because Shawn Matthias MIGHT turn into a decent hockey player.

Especially since Holland is the OMG BEST GM EVAR. He should be able to replace these prospects in our organization no sweat since ever pick he makes turns to gold.

If he surprises us with a big move, obviously you can ignore the above. I'm going on the assumption that he's telling the truth in that interview, but we all know that GMs lie sometimes.

I am sick of people who refuse to acknowledge the fact that we are inept in getting it done in the playoffs. Just because you are happy with a 45 + win regular season and nothing else doesn't mean everyone else is.

QUOTE (Dabura @ February 26, 2008 - 05:19PM)

Opie, that right there is a microcosm of your perspective's shortcomings; you're relying on huge generalizations and assumptions, as well as a general lack of good old-fashioned rationality. That people point out this team's weaknesses and call for them to be addressed is not proof that they're fair-weather fans who are "too young to blah blah blah" and should "find another team because blah blah blah" and want to "have their cake and eat it too blah blah blah."

This team has issues and they need to be addressed. Simple as that. Some people, myself included, simply aren't impressed with regular season success and the fact that the Wings won back-to-back cups a decade ago and bought the Cup in '02.

I say to both of you, what move that was available at last years deadline that could have been done to help the wings overcome the loss of Kronwall and Schneider. Holland would have to be able to tell the future to predict last year. The team had one of the top 2 d's in the league last year, and then in the playoffs lost 2 of its top 3 d-men.Do tell me if I am so stuck in the past, what would you (I assume do to your vast knowledge you are in line for a gm job somewhere) have done last year.

I have no problem with people saying there are needs that need addressing, as I have said that, when people say "Off with Hollands head" that is not logical and it shows a complete lack of understanding.Some teams won't deal with det, see Carolina, No one in the west is going to help make det any better than it already is. Very few eastern teams that are in the playoffs are going to deal anyone. So those of you that were calling for a Ryder trade, sorry that is not happening unless Dats is going the other way as they only appear willing to give up Ryder for Hossa in return.

Sticknmove I already told you that your credibility in this discussions is gone seeing as in one of your posts on this subject you have the wings not winning the cup since the 90's.

You do realize this is the salary cap era right?

Holland has Cleary and Zetterberg to worry about signing in the near future. Maybe Hossa wants 9 mil a year, you, me, and anyone else on here has a clue what goes on in the war room. However instead of trusting in an org. that has always played the UFA and trading in a way that has not hurt them, instead of freaking out and saying why hasn't he traded x for Hossa.Like it is that easy, like all Holland has to do is walk up to Waddell and say "Hey, Sammy and Meech for Hossa!" and Waddell will go "Sure why not, it isn't like I am going to get better offers."

Then Hossa busts and ankle and is out for the playoffs and then your post would look something like this:OMG Holland sucks he shouldn't have traded away the franchise for an rental player who got hurt.

Do you know how I know this, not because I can see the future but rather I can see the past, I can go back and make inferences from your posts.I could start in the Ozzie/Hasek threads, but I have made this post long enough already!

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard

Very very clever, I now see your point and retract everything I said!!!!

/sarcasm

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.

“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

Very very clever, I now see your point and retract everything I said!!!!

/sarcasm

The subject we're debating transcends how I would have handled the Kronner and Schneider injuries. I've said my piece.

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth and power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible. Pleasure disappoints, possibility never. And what wine is so sparkling, what so fragrant, what so intoxicating, as possibility!" - Kierkegaard