Knife law is varies from jurisdiction to jurisdicition. This thread is to help us know what the laws are, where to find them, to discuss them and so forth. We open with a post from the Kerambit vs. Straight knife thread by James in response to a question from me:============Crafty:

California Penal Code 12020 Street Carry Laws...Fixed blades must be openly carried; note any possible weapon, i.e. a screwdriver carried concealed can be considered a dagger and you could be in violation. Non switchblade pocket knives that are in the closed position can legally be carried concealed or open carry.

California Penal Code 626.10 Basically, don't carry a knife K-12. However on a college campus while you may not carry a fixed blade, you may carry a folder of any length.

Los Angeles City Ordinance I am sorry, I don't know the Ordinance, but I do know that LA prohibits open carry (and remember State Law says no concealed carry for a fixed blade) of ANY knife over 3". This would include folders. However, if you carry your folder 100% concealed, and it is over 3", this would seem to be legal but...

NOTE, nowhere in any CA Law (in contrast to some other states) is INTENT mentioned. Intent is not an issue until you use the knife; but that is a whole other discussion.

Crafty, I hope the above helps.=========

Maybe

I certainly appreciate your giving us the sections of the CA code involved and your summary of them. May I push my luck further and ask for the URLs and/or the actual language of the statutes?

Also, may I suggest what remains open on the question of intent is whether one is allowed to carry ANYTHING with the intent of it being a weapon? A baseball bat is legal , , , for baseball. A bat for the purpose of a weapon may not be. Anyone?

I certainly appreciate your giving us the sections of the CA code involved and your summary of them. May I push my luck further and ask for the URLs and/or the actual language of the statutes?

Also, may I suggest what remains open on the question of intent is whether one is allowed to carry ANYTHING with the intent of it being a weapon? A baseball bat is legal , , , for baseball. A bat for the purpose of a weapon may not be. Anyone?

CD============

Crafty; sorry my computer skills are limited

As for baseball, pipes, etc. the way it was explained to me is that "if you use it inan unlawful manner, there could be a weapon's charge.". But there is no law prohibiting youfrom carrying a baseball bat in your car. Nor do you have to explain why you have it.

In contrast, if you are carrying a screwdriver, knitting needle, etc. in your pants pocket concealed, it might be considered a "dagger" and you could be charged under PC 12020et al even if your "intent" was only to fix your front door.

If a LEO pulls over someone with a baseball bat on his front seat, and conversation reveals no baseball game in the near past or future, and upon query as to the reason for the bat the answer is given "Self Defense", I'm thinking this could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Re Section 12020, I'm thinking the same applies to that screwdriver in your pocket. If frisked per a "Terry stop" (calling all LEOs, am I using the term correctly?) i.e. a pat down search and the screwdriver turns up and your answer is "self-defense", again I am thinking your intent could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

If a LEO pulls over someone with a baseball bat on his front seat, and conversation reveals no baseball game in the near past or future, and upon query as to the reason for the bat the answer is given "Self Defense", I'm thinking this could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Re Section 12020, I'm thinking the same applies to that screwdriver in your pocket. If frisked per a "Terry stop" (calling all LEOs, am I using the term correctly?) i.e. a pat down search and the screwdriver turns up and your answer is "self-defense", again I am thinking your intent could lead to legally unhappy consequences.

Yes?

I think the two items are different. No law that I know of specifically refers to or describes a baseball bat. Of course, if I use the baseball bat, a pipe, golf club, etc. illegally, a weapons charge may result and lead to "unhappy consequences". However, you have no obligation to tell the officer why you have the baseball bat, golf club, etc. nor is there any thing he can charge you with even if you do say "self defense".

In contrast, a screwdriver can legally be interpreted as a sharp pointy thing, i.e. a dagger and therefore by definition illegal (12020) to carry hidden. He pats you down, finds that you are carrying it concealed and therefore it is an illegal weapon, which then probably will lead to your "legally unhappy consequences."

Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do? Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

But the issue still is not "intent". The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not.

"Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do? Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

"But the issue still is not "intent". The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not."

Disagree. By your own words it is precisely the intent that turns it into a dagger.

As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them. Yes?

"Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do? Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

"But the issue still is not "intent". The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not."

Disagree. By your own words it is precisely the intent that turns it into a dagger.

As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them. Yes?

Actually no; it was not my words that turned it into a dagger; it already by definition was a dagger, i.e. a sharp pointy thing; however it is up to the officer's judgment whether he was looking at an illegal weapon; i.e. a dagger longer than 3" in LA jurisdiction. I understand your point, and perhaps I am splitting hairs; BUT if I has said nothing, or if I had said, "I am fixing my front door" he still would have the right to arrest me for having an illegal weapon (dagger longer than 3"). It is the item itself, the dagger, that is illegal, not my intent.

And yes, it is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make negative inferences if I am vague or refuse to answer. So? If I am carrying nothing illegal, i.e. only a baseball bat he can huff and puff, and maybe waste some of my time, but what else can he do?

Let me give you an example. As a hobby/business I really like photography. I usually shoot people; individuals. I was at the Van Nuys Courthouse last week for court business, but I brought my camera; I like watching people outside court. But maybe I should have brought a gun, it would have been easier to explain. As I entered, the rent a cop said, "No cameras allowed" to me. I said, "No, the sign says, "no taking pictures, I don't intend to take a picture inside the Courthouse and the camera/lens cost over 10k so you can't have it." The Sheriff came, we discussed it, and it was agreed I could keep the camera. I testified at a trial, did my job, and went outside the courthouse, had a nice cigar and cup of coffee. I then began shooting (camera, I forget this is a martial art forum) individuals.

Sheriff comes up to me and yells, "Stop". "Why" I say? He said, "it's illegal to take pictures". I said, "No, it's illegal to take pictures inside the courthouse, but outside is fair game.". He huffed and he puffed. We argued, I asked for his supervisor, and the Senior Deputy, while not very happy (we were both polite and courteous) agreed that I have every right to take pictures of people outside the courthouse. My long (sorry) point? The law is the law; obey it, but if you are within your rights and are obeying the law and have nothing to hide, do not fear or be concerned about the erroneous opinion or negative inferences of a police officer.

Virginia, for example, has no length of blade law except for on school grounds (then it is 3").

Maryland, has no length law but it is up to the individual officer to decide whether he/she thinks you are up to no good, at which point you can be arrested. So one cop might not have a problem with you carrying a 6" Bowie on you, and another might lock you up for a 3 1/2" folder. This is one of the reasons I generally recommend people reconsider packing an all black military looking throat slitter.

In NY carrying a screwdriver can also be considered carrying burglar's tools if the overall situation crosses into that articulable threshold. If you are caught by the police peering into the back windows of a house at night, with a screwdriver, that could be enough for possession of burglar's tools.

I think JDN's response to Crafty on a couple of issues is basically a solid one. However...

Quote

Let me give you an example. As a hobby/business I really like photography. I usually shoot people; individuals. I was at the Van Nuys Courthouse last week for court business, but I brought my camera; I like watching people outside court. But maybe I should have brought a gun, it would have been easier to explain. As I entered, the rent a cop said, "No cameras allowed" to me. I said, "No, the sign says, "no taking pictures, I don't intend to take a picture inside the Courthouse and the camera/lens cost over 10k so you can't have it."

Having had to help draft these types of polices, I can attest to the importance of absolute specificity and clarity. I suspect the prevailing courthouse rules are "no taking of pictures", not "no possession of cameras."

Quote

The law is the law; obey it, but if you are within your rights and are obeying the law and have nothing to hide, do not fear or be concerned about the erroneous opinion or negative inferences of a police officer.

Certainly not a personal policy I would encourage but to each his own. There are ways to deal with people who want to get all Donkey Kong. From the moment somebody takes that attitude, they have to be right every time. The cop only has to be right once. I won't go into tactics and techniques, but I have personally dealt with people wanting to show their ass in a most satisfactory and very satisfying manner (as in I left the courthouse that Friday night and had a beer, and they got to go to the Baltimore city Jail).

Logged

"This is a war, and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at any time, in any place." ~ Morpheus

I think JDN's response to Crafty on a couple of issues is basically a solid one. However...

Quote

Let me give you an example. As a hobby/business I really like photography. I usually shoot people; individuals. I was at the Van Nuys Courthouse last week for court business, but I brought my camera; I like watching people outside court. But maybe I should have brought a gun, it would have been easier to explain. As I entered, the rent a cop said, "No cameras allowed" to me. I said, "No, the sign says, "no taking pictures, I don't intend to take a picture inside the Courthouse and the camera/lens cost over 10k so you can't have it."

Having had to help draft these types of polices, I can attest to the importance of absolute specificity and clarity. I suspect the prevailing courthouse rules are "no taking of pictures", not "no possession of cameras."

Quote

The law is the law; obey it, but if you are within your rights and are obeying the law and have nothing to hide, do not fear or be concerned about the erroneous opinion or negative inferences of a police officer.

Certainly not a personal policy I would encourage but to each his own. There are ways to deal with people who want to get all Donkey Kong. From the moment somebody takes that attitude, they have to be right every time. The cop only has to be right once. I won't go into tactics and techniques, but I have personally dealt with people wanting to show their ass in a most satisfactory and very satisfying manner (as in I left the courthouse that Friday night and had a beer, and they got to go to the Baltimore city Jail).[/quote]

Cold War Scout,

Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but..."Donkey Kong"? "show their ass"? hmmmm I think in the above post I mentioned that I was polite as was the Senior Deputy. And I broke no law; I just pointed out my legal rights. Actually, the only "ass" in the story was the initial Sheriff who huffed and puffed but didn't know his own "ass" about the law. I just listened to him and asked for his Supervisor. Maybe that's why he was the Supervisor...

So assuming similar legal circumstances in your example, "they went to Baltimore City Jail" on what bogus fictitious charge??? I don't know Baltimore Laws, but in LA, if you arrested and booked someone (who knows the law and has a few dollars) given the above scenario, before you finished your beers, he would be out of jail, also, most likely your personnel file would be negatively noted and you might even be suspended on Monday, plus the civil suit against the City/County would be for more than an LA Police/Sheriff makes in a year. Not good.

Police/Sheriff's are not above the law; their duty is to know and enforce the law; Police/Sheriff's don't make the Law. And it is the Public's responsibility to obey the law.

Personally I never worried about getting sued. I could articulate and justify every single thing I ever did. And I did the things I thought needed doing without the slightest hesitation.

I did get sued one time (and only once) in the early 80s. For a million dollars! Man that was like badge of honor. The case was thrown out at the first hearing. Because when you bogusly claim you have been beaten to within an inch of your life at the time of arrest, then your booking photos should not show that you did not have a single scratch on you.

I did go major hands on a bandit once. Under your theory I should have been quivering in my shoes from his lawsuit. To him it was a badge of honor. Two days after the event, when he was in a cell in the facility and saw me, he started bragging to the others in the cell about the the ass whooping he got, and asked me to verify it to the others.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 10:24:05 AM by Cold War Scout »

Logged

"This is a war, and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at any time, in any place." ~ Morpheus

Personally I never worried about getting sued. I could articulate and justify every single thing I ever did. And I did the things I thought needed doing without the slightest hesitation.

I did get sued one time (and only once) in the early 80s. For a million dollars! Man that was like badge of honor. The case was thrown out at the first hearing. Because when you bogusly claim you have been beaten to within an inch of your life at the time of arrest, then your booking photos should not show that you did not have a single scratch on you.

I did go major hands on a bandit once. Under your theory I should have been quivering in my shoes from his lawsuit. To him it was a badge of honor. Two days after the event, when he was in a cell in the facility and saw me, he started bragging to the others in the cell about the the ass whooping he got, and asked me to verify it to the others.

Cold War Scout,

Ahhhh actually they (Police/Sheriff) DON'T get to interpret the Law; that's why we have Judges and maybe the DA's Office. But the Police/Sheriff? They simply enforce the law - it is NOT their prerogative to interpret it.

As for the lawsuit, I agree, don't worry, not your problem; here in LA the City pays with taxpayer's money. Frankly, I think the money really should come out of the Officer's personal assets. His mistake, it should be his "ass".

As for the "major hands on a bandit once", don't know about that, but maybe that is why LA Police Department still has the Feds looking over their shoulder and LA is spending millions on Federal Mandated Police Oversight and has awarded millions to citizens falsely manhandled and falsely arrested. Wasted taxpayer's dollars at work all because of a few rogue and publically vilified cops.

Kind of gives Police/Sheriff's a bad name, don't you think? I kind of feel sorry for the many outstanding ones like the Senior Deputy I mentioned.

On Jan. 11, 2009, Hawaii Senator Les Ihara, Jr. introduced Bill 126 that would essentially ban folding knives throughout the state. In a letter to the senator, David Kowalski, of the American Knife & Tool Institute, laid out why the bill is bad for law-abiding knife owners.

Currently, Hawaiian law applies only to possession of switchblades, enforceable at the felony level. Bill 126 would expand the scope of knife regulation to include folders. However, the penalty would be a misdemeanor, not a felony.

What follows is Kowalski's letter.

Dear Senator Ihara:

The bill you introduced last week (HI S 126) would make de facto criminals of tens of thousands of your law-abiding citizens and potentially millions more who visit your beautiful state each year. It reads, in part… A BILL FOR AN ACT RELATING TO DANGEROUS WEAPONS. BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF HAWAII: SECTION 1. Chapter 134, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended by adding a new section to part III to be appropriately designated and to read as follows: "Section 134- Pocket knives; sale prohibited; penalty. Any person who knowingly manufactures, sells, transfers, possesses, or transports a pocket knife in the State shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. As used in this section: "Pocket knife" means a knife with a blade that folds into the handle and which is suitable for carrying in the pocket."

On behalf of the American Knife & Tool Institute (AKTI), which represents the $1 Billion sporting knife industry in the United States, I would ask two things of you.

First, please call me at your earliest convenience to discuss this proposed legislation. I understand you have introduced the bill at the request of a constituent. It would be important to understand your goals and those of your constituent. While passing a knife law might seem a simple issue, there are grave consequences if it is vague, discriminatory, highly discretionary or simply so broad it is unenforceable.

AKTI has worked successfully with lawmakers in several states to make sure their knife laws support the goals of law enforcement, mesh with the needs of a diverse and strong economy, preserve the heritage of men and women who hunt, fish, and enjoy a broad variety of outdoor recreation, allow the construction industry to function at a high level, and preserve the rights of ordinary citizens who may have carried a knife their entire life to open letters and do some pruning in the rose garden.

Secondly, I would ask you to consider just a few issues that might give you some new insight into the issues that your bill raises.

Broadly, AKTI supports rational, equitable knife laws. Simple possession of a knife should not be punished. Knives do no harm unless used by someone who intends to harm. But we do support significant punishment of anyone who uses a knife in the commission of a crime.

Every five years, our U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service documents the impact of hunting and fishing in each of the50 states. Released in the fall of 2007, its 2006 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-AssociatedRecreation documents that, nationally, hunters and fishers spend more than $76 Billion annually (State statistics page attached).

Hawaii benefited from an estimated $163,363,000 spent by hunters and fishers in 2006. Since most hunters and fishers carry knives, we should not subject them to prosecution for knife possession or jeopardize that vital revenue.

Your marine and sport fishing industry is heavily dependent on knife usage. To forbid pocket knives on the docks and marinas of Hawaii would be an economic disaster and an enforcement nightmare.

Speaking further about economics, AKTI published its own report in 2007 entitled The AKTI State of the Sporting Knife Industry. Projections from the AKTI study peg annual sporting knife revenue at the manufacturer/importer level in Hawaii at $41,686,375.

Sales at Hawaii distribution and retail outlets would nearly double that number to some $82 million. That’s alot of jobs, taxes and economic vitality. When you run those dollars through all the local economies affected, the total economic impact of the sporting knife industry in Hawaii approaches $492 million annually.

The construction trades are heavily dependent on workmen using knives. They carry them from homes to job sites and back again daily … millions of times each day. I am not an expert on the Hawaiian construction trades, but ask yourself how many of these people could keep Hawaii building and growing without all their necessary tools.

Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, farm workers, greenhouse staff, lawn care workers, tree trimmers, nursery and garden center staff all use knives daily. Scientific research is significant in Hawaii where pocket knives are commonly used to procure samples. Then there are thousands of gardeners throughout the islands, many of whom carry a knife on their person. To bust every grandmother in her rose garden for carrying and using a pocket knife would be a social disaster beyond measure.

I have been to Hawaii several times. My small folding knife goes into checked baggage when I fly but then I carry it when I go biking or whale watching. Multiply me by millions of visitors who hunt, fish, hike, rock climb, bike, kayak, canoe, deep-sea fish, snorkel or scuba. Do you really want to threaten all those law-abiding visitors with arrest for carrying a small pocket knife? Whether they come from the continental U.S. or the Pacific Rim countries, their tourist dollars are very discretionary dollars and they can take them elsewhere.

Knives are man’s oldest tools. We don’t ban automobiles or cameras or computers because they have become more complex in mechanism and materials, more sophisticated in design, more aesthetically rich, and focused on ever-narrower market niches. We don’t ban baseball bats or golf clubs because they can cause physical injury.

Ideally, AKTI’s position is that knife possession of any sort should be permitted. AKTI’s ideal law would read, "A knife is illegal only if it is carried with the intent to assault or harm another person." However, I recognize that Hawaii already bans switchblades (and I have attached your current knife statute).

AKTI and AKTI members urge you to withdraw your bill since, as it is written, it would be a broad-brush attack on millions of law-abiding Hawaiian citizens and visitors. Its economic impact on several vital industries would be disastrous, especially given our current economic climate.

"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed

Just a heads up.CA permits folding knives to be carried in the folding position above grade 12 (college campus)however a few local College Police/Security take the position that if they offer education for K-12 on their campus and/or even have daycare on campus the laws applicable to K-12 apply, i.e. no folding knives. Bogus perhaps, but be aware you may be stopped and detained and possibly arrested. You are in the "right", but...

Beware! That folding knife in your pocket may turn you into a criminal if the Obama administration gets its way. Although there has been a lot of fear and speculation that the new administration wants to take your guns, the most pressing threat now is actually to your pocket knives. With the changing of the guard at U.S. Customs, that agency has now embarked on redefining "switchblades" under federal law to include a wide variety of one hand opening knives that never were intended to be prohibited. In fact, many of the knives U.S. Customs now seek to prohibit under the Federal Switchblade Law had not even been invented at the time of its enactment! Furthermore, four previous U.S. Customs ruling letters (prior administrations) specifically determined "assisted opening" knives not to be defined as switchblades.

This new proposed U.S. Customs regulation is so broad that thousands of pocket knives will fall under its sweep and millions of knife owners will be affected. The problem is not simply that imports will be banned (which is bad enough), but that the "agency determination" will be used by domestic courts and law enforcement to determine what a "switchblade" is under both federal and state laws. Many states, including New Hampshire, fail to define switchblades and simply rely on the federal definition.

Luckily, the two premiere knife organizations in the US, American Knife and Tool Institute (AKTI) and Kniferights.org, are fighting hard on this issue, but they both need your immediate help. Customs is attempting to jam this new regulation though at record speed.

U.S. Customs has proposed revoking earlier rulings that assisted opening knives are not switchblades. The proposed new rule would not only outlaw assisted opening knives its broad definition could also easily be interpreted to include one-handed opening knives and even most other pocket knives.

Note that customs interpretation of the Federal Switchblade Act forms the basis for national, state and even local law and judicial rulings in many cases. The effect is NOT limited to just imports.

URGENT NEWS - U.S. Customs Proposal would characterize assisted-openers as switchblade knives and jeopardize all pocket knives. On behalf of the entire sporting knife industry and knife owners across the country, AKTI will be filing an official response to U.S. Customs.

This is the biggest threat to American knife owners in U.S. history. AKTI informs us that this "Customs' proposal will make criminal out of 35.6 million Americans."

AKTI further states:

U.S. Customs proposes to bypass Congress and expand the switchblade definition to include all knives that open with one hand. These include multi-tools, traditional pocket knives, one-hand openers, and assisted-openers. More than 35.6 million law-abiding Americans now own one-hand-openingknives in one of the above four categories.

"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed

Beware! That folding knife in your pocket may turn you into a criminal if the Obama administration gets its way. Although there has been a lot of fear and speculation that the new administration wants to take your guns, the most pressing threat now is actually to your pocket knives. With the changing of the guard at U.S. Customs, that agency has now embarked on redefining "switchblades" under federal law to include a wide variety of one hand opening knives that never were intended to be prohibited. In fact, many of the knives U.S. Customs now seek to prohibit under the Federal Switchblade Law had not even been invented at the time of its enactment! Furthermore, four previous U.S. Customs ruling letters (prior administrations) specifically determined "assisted opening" knives not to be defined as switchblades.

This new proposed U.S. Customs regulation is so broad that thousands of pocket knives will fall under its sweep and millions of knife owners will be affected. The problem is not simply that imports will be banned (which is bad enough), but that the "agency determination" will be used by domestic courts and law enforcement to determine what a "switchblade" is under both federal and state laws. Many states, including New Hampshire, fail to define switchblades and simply rely on the federal definition.

Luckily, the two premiere knife organizations in the US, American Knife and Tool Institute (AKTI) and Kniferights.org, are fighting hard on this issue, but they both need your immediate help. Customs is attempting to jam this new regulation though at record speed.

U.S. Customs has proposed revoking earlier rulings that assisted opening knives are not switchblades. The proposed new rule would not only outlaw assisted opening knives its broad definition could also easily be interpreted to include one-handed opening knives and even most other pocket knives. Note that customs interpretation of the Federal Switchblade Act forms the basis for national, state and even local law and judicial rulings in many cases. The effect is NOT limited to just imports. As stated on the www.akti.org website:

URGENT NEWS - U.S. Customs Proposal would characterize assisted-openers as switchblade knives and jeopardize all pocket knives. On behalf of the entire sporting knife industry and knife owners across the country, AKTI will be filing an official response to U.S. Customs. This is the biggest threat to American knife owners in U.S. history. AKTI informs us that this "Customs' proposal will make criminal out of 35.6 million Americans."

AKTI further states:

U.S. Customs proposes to bypass Congress and expand the switchblade definition to include all knives that open with one hand. These include multi-tools, traditional pocket knives, one-hand openers, and assisted-openers.

More than 35.6 million law-abiding Americans now own one-hand-openingknives in one of the above four categories. The U.S. Customs proposed new rule and the four prior letters they want to overturn can be read in their entirety here: http://www.akti.org/PDFS/U.S.CustomsProposedRuling.pdf

AKTI suggests that to register your opposition to the U.S. Customs'plan (19 CFR Part 177) to re-classify assisted openers and all folding knives; address your comments by June 21, 2009, to:

This is sooooooo stupid. Know what edged weapons the average street scrote carries? A box cutter or tile knife bought at the dollar store. Cheap, plausibly deniable and readily disposable after they commit a crime with it.

There was very little linked in the original article- although the writer states that all one-handed folders would be banned, about an hour of tooling around through the Customs pubically available information only yielded to me that

a) spring-assist would be effectedb) this would only effect import and not carry

The writer may have materials I am not privy to, but neither I nor any friends were able to find them.

There was very little linked in the original article- although the writer states that all one-handed folders would be banned, about an hour of tooling around through the Customs pubically available information only yielded to me that

a) spring-assist would be effectedb) this would only effect import and not carry

The writer may have materials I am not privy to, but neither I nor any friends were able to find them.

Yes, spring assist would be affected. Yes, this would only affect importation. There are some other areas where this ruling may have an impact. Customs is saying that "It is now CBP’s position that knives incorporating spring- and release-assisted opening mechanisms are prohibited from entry into the United States pursuant to the Switchblade Knife Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1241–1245" -- page 7 of their statement. Customs then has some letters from 2005 where they said that spring assist was not a switchblade. Fine. Agreed.Problem is with their 2008 letters that retract the earlier view. At this point, they are citing the report of the "Senate Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce" -- ". . . We hold, therefore, that a knife may be found to be a switchblade knife within the meaning of the Switchblade Knife Act if it is found thatit can be made to open automatically by hand pressure, inertia, or gravity after insignificant alterations, and that one of its primary purposes is for use as a weapon" - page 24.Then Customs goes back and gets some rather obscure rulings to further reinforce their view that a switchblade is now [either] a knife that opens by pushing a button or a knife that can be opened with inertia. They cite a dictionary definition of inertia, etc.... and then these past rulings: "In New York Ruling Letter (‘‘NY’’) G83213, dated October 13, 2000, CBP determined that ‘‘a folding knife with a spring-loaded blade [which could] be easily opened by light pressure on a thumb knob located at the base of the blade, or by a flick of the wrist’’ was an ‘‘inertia-operated knife’’ that ‘‘is prohibited under the Switchblade Act and subject to seizure.’’ See 19 C.F.R.§ 12.95 (a)(1). In NY H81084, dated May 23, 2001, CBP determined that 18 models of knives ‘‘may be opened with a simple flick of the wrist, and therefore areprohibited as inertial operated knives.’’ - page 32

OK, so spring assist and, based on their definition, any knife that can be opened with a "flick of the wrist" - and at some other point they discuss any knife that can be opened with one hand (but I'm too lazy to find it in the 63 pages of legalese), let's say all these can no longer be imported. My big Cold Steel knife can be flicked open, I'm sure there are plenty of others. With the thumb-stud types, the makers can leave the thumb stud off and then tack weld the fastener holding the blade so it can't be backed out (and thus it can't be loose enough to be flicked open).

These are the Feds and they work with the Federal definition of a switchblade, of course. That's 15 USC -- 1241-1245.Here's the warped part. Most all state laws that ban switchblades do not define a switchblade. The state law defaults to the Federal definition. So, if the Federal definition would now mean all the knives above, then a lot of regular knives could no longer be carried under state statutes.Has this happened? No. But we haven't heard from Customs yet. They have 30 days from June 21st to make a ruling, which takes effect 90 days from that time. I don't know what the states will do with it. Some will probably ignore it. Others, who knows? Meanwhile, a lot of knife manufacturers are going to have a mess.

I am not an attorney, nor did I sleep in whatever motel last night. But, I do get paid as my full time job to interpret firearms law and when I happened across the Customs bulletin, I thought it wouldn't hurt to take a look. So, my opinion is only worth the two pennies and I am only listing possibilities. Some of those, unfortunately, are just rather disheartening.

Ah, you found some text that I had not. My perception of this is that someone who's not very familiar with knives thinks he(or she or they) are closing a loophole. I believe they're incorrect, of course.

Ah, you found some text that I had not. My perception of this is that someone who's not very familiar with knives thinks he(or she or they) are closing a loophole. I believe they're incorrect, of course.

Exactly! Years ago, when I saw the first assisted-opening knives, I thought that eventually the Feds would walk all over that idea. Unfortunately, the "not very familiar" are running the show (as you very well said), so we may see some things that are just stupid. Agreed, they are attempting to close a loophole, but they are taking the old idea of gravity knives and pushing that into the concept of inertia opening.

You and I need to have the ability to sit down with a beer and write the "switchblade" definition -- which I'd suggest, should really just be trashed. I could care less if somebody is carrying a knife that needs to have a button pushed to open it. While they are doing that, I can pop my knife open faster. Or, I'll just shoot them.

I wouldn't begrudge a law that made it more difficult to carry a knife that is very easily palm-concealed. I just want a safe tool I can open with one hand that sufficiently obvious that I'll have a hard time walking up to someone when it's in my hand. I've never had my hands on an actual switchblade, so I don't know if this is a valid concern.

I wouldn't freak out if they banned the import of those crazy indonesian finger-knives either(where you hold the ball in your palm and the blade traces along your index finger). I could be persuaded otherwise, most likely.

Has anyone here written a letter about this yet? NOW is the time for comments people!

Crafty Dog - the comment period ended June 21st. Customs was asked for an extension but they refused. Meanwhile a couple of Representatives tried to tag a rule onto the Customs appropriations bill to not let Customs have the money needed to enforce the new switchblade ruling (kind of clever, I thought, hit them in the wallet). Of course, the rule got pitched out of committee on some kind of technical error.

So, we wait and see. At least here, a Missouri CCW includes all weapons, so I can always carry my Bowie knife in one of Mike Sastre's sheaths.....!

. I recently purchased a double-edged survival knife. Does Michigan law allow me to carry this in my vehicle?

MCL 750.227 No. A dagger, dirk, stiletto, or double-edged non-folding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, cannot be carried concealed on or about a person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in their own home, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

5. Is it illegal to have a knife with a blade over 3 inches in my possession?

MCL 750.226 No. Michigan law specifies that a person, with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another, shall not go armed with a knife having a blade over 3 inches in length.

Boyo

The real interesting point is the intent question. Does carrying a knife for self defense imply intent.

Now here is my quandry about michigan , we allow peopel to carry firearms for the same purpose they say you cannot carry a knife self defense . Tried to talk to a local prosecuter about it and he really didn't have any answers or didn't want to give any.

Now here is my quandry about michigan , we allow peopel to carry firearms for the same purpose they say you cannot carry a knife self defense . Tried to talk to a local prosecuter about it and he really didn't have any answers or didn't want to give any.

boyo

Some states - maybe most - do have that problem. They'll issue permits to carry firearms rather than weapons (and then one must go to the definition of weapon to see what's allowed). When Missouri did their law, they said "weapons" -- however (aren't those however things great?), brass knuckles and switchblades are not in the list of definitions for weapon, they are listed separately. So, brass knuckles and switchblades are illegal to carry even with a permit to carry weapons. That means perhaps, depending on how Missouri looks at the Customs ruling, my folding knife would be illegal to carry.

Using the wonders of legal logic, I am still able to carry blackjacks, saps, bowie knives, daggers, dirks and firearms. That's if I am tough enough to pack around that much gear.

Late Thursday, the Senate unanimously passed anamendment to the Federal Switchblade Act as part of the Homeland Security appropriations bill. The amendment, authored by Sens. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Mark Pryor (D-Ark.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), changes the federal law under which one agency had tried to redefine many common knives as switchblades.

Friday, July 10, 2009 Late Thursday, the Senate unanimously passed anamendment to the Federal Switchblade Act as part of the Homeland Security appropriations bill. The amendment, authored by Sens. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Mark Pryor (D-Ark.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), changes the federal law under which one agency had tried to redefine many common knives as switchblades.

The measure would exempt assisted-opening knives that can only be opened with "exertion applied to the blade by hand, wrist or arm" from a federal law that criminalizes commerce in switchblades. Assisted opening knives are highly desired by hunters, anglers, farmers, ranchers, firefighters, law enforcement and emergency personnel and others who may need to open a knife with only one hand.

"The Senate sent a strong message and made clear that the 35 million Americans who own pocketknives are free to continue using them without the threat of federal agency intrusion," Sen. Cornyn said in a statement today. "While U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) proposed changing that, my colleagues joined in a unanimous, bipartisan effort to ensure assisted-opening pocketknives are protected by the law. What's more, the CBP reversal would have inflicted serious economic harm to sporting goods manufacturers and retailers."

In the same statement, Sen. Hatch said, "Without this amendment, there is a real danger that 80 percent of the pocketknives sold in the U.S. could be classified as illegal switchblades, which would hurt knife and tool manufacturers across the nation. The unintended consequences of the CBP's definition could be that state and federal criminal courts could construe Leatherman-type multi-tools equipped with one-hand opening features, as well as folding utility knives with studs on the blunt portions of the blade to assist with opening, to be illegal. That is absurd."

Thursday's Senate action puts us one step closer to passing this common-sense measure into law. The measure now heads to a House-Senate Conference Committee.

This is from the NY Times (for which my nickname is Pravda On The Hudson: POTH) so caveat lector:==============

PHOENIX — Arizona used to be a knife carrier’s nightmare, with a patchwork of local laws that forced those inclined to strap Buck knives or other sharp objects to their belts to tread carefully as they moved from Phoenix (no knives except pocketknives) to Tempe (no knives at all) to Tucson (no knives on library grounds).

D’Alton Holder, a longtime knife maker, said, “It’s ridiculous to talk about the size of the knife as if that makes a difference.” But that changed earlier this year when Arizona made its Legislature the sole arbiter of knife regulations. And because of loose restrictions on weapons here, Arizona is now considered a knife carrier’s dream, a place where everything from a samurai sword to a switchblade can be carried without a quibble.

Arizona’s transformation, and the recent lifting of a ban on switchblades, stilettos, dirks and daggers in New Hampshire, has given new life to the knife rights lobby, the little-known cousin of the more politically potent gun rights movement. Its vision is a knife-friendly America, where blades are viewed not as ominous but as tools — the equivalent of sharp-edged screw drivers or hammers — that serve useful purposes and can save lives as well as take them.

Sure, knife fights and knife attacks are a concern. No knife-lover would ever deny that. In fact, Todd Rathner, the lobbyist for Knife Rights Inc., an advocacy group based in Arizona that is now in its third year, was mugged twice in New York City before moving to Tucson, once — “ironically,” he said — at knifepoint.

But the problem is with the knife wielder, not the knife itself, the knife lobby says, sounding very much like those who advocate for gun rights.

In fact, knife advocates contend that the Second Amendment applies to knives as well as guns. They focus their argument elsewhere, though, emphasizing that knives fill so many beneficial roles, from carving Thanksgiving turkeys to whittling, that they do not deserve the bad name they often get.

“People talk about how knives are dangerous, and then they go in the kitchen and they have 50 of them,” said D’Alton Holder, a veteran knife maker who lives in Wickenberg, Ariz. “It’s ridiculous to talk about the size of the knife as if that makes a difference. If you carry a machete that’s three feet long, it’s no more dangerous than any knife. You can do just as much damage with an inch-long blade, even a box cutter.”

As for the pocketknife he carries with him every day, Mr. Holder said: “I use it for everything — to clean my fingernails, to prune a tree or carve, even to eat dinner with. I never think about the knives that I carry or the knives that I make as weapons.”

Jennifer Coffey, the New Hampshire state representative who led the effort to overturn the state’s switchblade ban, is also an emergency medical technician who uses knives to extract people from vehicles after accidents. Even when switchblades were outlawed, there were exceptions for emergency workers and others who might use them on the job, but Ms. Coffey still considered the law outrageous.

“We had certain knives that were illegal, but I could walk down the street with a kitchen knife that I used to carve a turkey and that would be legal,” Ms. Coffey said. “I’d be more scared of a kitchen knife than a switchblade.”

She said switchblade bans were passed in the 1950s because of the menacing use of the knives in movies like “West Side Story” and “Rebel Without a Cause.” Her legislation drew the support of an array of knife-related entities: Knife Rights, a young upstart in knife advocacy; the American Knife and Tool Institute, a group based in Wyoming that represents knife manufacturers, sellers and owners; and publications like Blade, Cutlery News Journal and Knife World.

The effort to lift the ban on switchblades in New Hampshire even won the support of the New Hampshire Association of Chiefs of Police.

==========

In Arizona, however, police groups were more circumspect about lifting all of the local knife laws. The Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police opposed the move, saying local jurisdictions ought to set their own knife restrictions. The Phoenix Law Enforcement Association remained neutral.

In much of the country, especially in urban areas, knives are still viewed as weapons in need of tight control. District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.

“What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.

Mr. Vance’s offensive drew the ire of the American Knife and Tool Institute, which issued an “action alert” and offered to assist New York retailers and individuals charged with knife violations with their legal defenses.

The knife lobby similarly rose up in 2009 when the federal Customs and Border Protection agency issued a proposal that would have reclassified many pocketknives and pocket tools as switchblades and thus made them illegal for import or sale across state lines under the 1958 federal Switchblade Act. In the end, Congress intervened and blocked the change.

A case now unfolding in Seattle shows how volatile knives continue to be. A police officer there fatally shot a man in August after, the officer said, he ordered the man several times to drop a knife that he was carrying. But the legitimacy of the shooting has been questioned by the Police Department, partly because the knife, which had a three-inch blade, was found in a closed position near the body of the dead man, who had been using it to carve a piece of wood.

Knife advocates are hoping that, just as Arizona’s immigration law has led to a national debate on that topic, its move to end knife restrictions will lead more states to take up the cause.

“Arizona is now the model when it comes to knives,” said Mr. Rathner, who was a National Rifle Association lobbyist before he switched to knives. “We’re now going to be moving to other states, probably in the Rocky Mountains and the Southeast. There’s probably half a dozen or more places that are ripe for this.”

Real badguys tend to carry box cutters, utility type knives. Depending on the jurisdiction, they are mostly legal to carry (depending on the jurisdiction), they are inexpensive, they can deliver serious cuts with little effort and can then be quickly disposed of if used in a crime. They don't tend to carry high dollar, quality knives, at least most don't.

When the fathers of the United States framed the Constitution as supreme law of the country in 1787, they granted each American citizen the unalienable right to keep and bear arms. While that clause of the Second Amendment is generally thought of as referring to the legal right to own and carry a firearm, it was originally based on a citizen’s right to defend him or herself. And that includes the right to carry a knife.

The rights of citizens to carry knives hasn’t seen near the level of legal or media attention that firearm restrictions have seen, but that is changing. Knife Rights, founded in 2006, is an organization dedicated to lobbying for changes in legislation that it feels unnecessary, irrelevant or outdated. And to that end, it’s a target-rich environment.

“There are many states with irrational knife laws,” says Knife Rights Chairman Doug Ritter. “Our concentration is on states where we feel like we can make improvements and achieve successes, and as we continue to do this we want to show other states that this is possible with it having a negative effect on crime rate.”

Consider the switchblade. Thanks to Rebel Without a Cause, released in 1955, and West Side Story, produced on Broadway in 1957, the switchblade became a symbol of unruly youth, of warring gangsters—a knife with no practical purposes. A year later, on August 12, 1958, Congress passed a law banning switchblades, defined as any knife that opened automatically.

As the years passed, it became clear that switchblades did have practical applications—such as a first responder needing to a knife that could open quickly with one hand for, say, cutting a seatbelt. Today, switchblades remain illegal in 14 states. But the broad shift toward more pragmatic legislation is an encouraging trend.

This summer, Knife Rights successfully lobbied for the repeal of the law banning switchblades in Missouri. The organization filed for similar legislation in Pennsylvania, though election-centric politics diverted attention from the effort.

“We generally do not comment on pending legislative efforts,” says Ritter, “however, I can say that we will be pursuing the exact same bill next year and that the effort is already well underway.”

There is perhaps no more irrational case of enforcing a knife law than Clayton Baltzer’s arrest this past spring in New York City. Baltzer, 20, is an online student at Baptist Bible College & Seminary in Clarks Summit, Pennsylvania, majoring in camping-ministry. He works full time as the food service manager of a bible camp in Millersburg, Ohio. And he’s carried a pocketknife since his uncle gave him one when he was 11 years old.

In March, his fine arts class took a trip to New York to see the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Ground Zero at the World Trade Center site, Times Square and an opera at Lincoln Center. And as he usually does, Baltzer carried his knife, a small Winchester knife with a pocket clip and blade about an inch and a half long.

While he was standing on a subway platform, two undercover policemen noticed the clip outside Blatzer’s pocket.

“They grabbed me out of nowhere,” Baltzer says. “It ended up with me with my hands on my head. I have definitely never been in trouble like that, so I was pretty scared. I didn’t really know what was going on.”

The cops took Baltzer up to the ticketing platform where they called more cops. The knife Baltzer was carrying is intended to be opened with two hands, but the cops were looking for a knife that could be flicked open with one hand, or a gravity knife. The first cop could not flick the knife open, nor could the second. But the third successfully opened the knife with one hand, and the cops had their man—graivty kniver are illegal in New York.

They handcuffed Baltzer and booked him with disorderly conduct. He spent five hours in jail and they confiscated his knife, the one given to him by his uncle.

In subsequent months, he made several trips to New York to appear in court. He was ordered to pay the court fees and given three days’ worth of community service.

“I definitely do not feel like ever going back to New York,” Baltzer says. “Not any time soon.”

Baltzer has since completed his community service, paid his debt to society. And the city still has possession of his small folding knife. It’s prosecutions like these that Knife Rights stands to correct.

“(Baltzer) is a poster child for the unreasonableness and ridiculousness of the prosecution of honest citizens carrying knives,” Knife Rights’ Ritter told The Columbus Dispatch in June.

In 2011, prior to Baltzer’s absurd arrest, Knife Rights filed a federal civil rights lawsuit to stop New York City from arresting law-abiding citizens carrying common pocketknives and t prevent t persecution of businesses, like Home Depot and Ace Hardware, from selling pocketknives. The city and the District Attorney of New York, Cyrus Vance, Jr., moved to have the case dismissed earlier this year. But a US District Judge denied their motion and the case will proceed.

Much of the road to more practical knife legislation has been paved by the firearms-rights organizations, according to Ritter. In that regard, the knife community is following in the footsteps of the gun community. Every year, there are positive changes to knife regulations that take into consideration not only law-abiding citizens, but also professionals who use and carry knives on a regular basis.

The biggest change to knife laws this year was the knife law preemption bill signed in Georgia. That law effectively eliminated a complex and confusing patchwork of local knife laws in the state. Within the knife community, that’s very good news. Particularly because Atlanta, home to BLADE Show, the largest knife show in the world, it was illegal to carry any automatic knife or knife bigger than three inches “readily available for use.” The new law means that people traveling to or from the show will no longer have to worry about inadvertently violating local laws.

Also this year, Washington Governor Chris Gregoire signed legislation making assisted-opening knives, or switchblades, legal in the state.

Indiana also voted for more relaxed switchblade knife regulations.

In South Carolina, State Representative Mike Pitts introduced HB4609, which would add knives to the state’s existing firearms preemption law.

As said, Knife Rights does not comment on on-going legislative or lobbying efforts. But it’s safe to say that we can count on continued efforts to make knife laws more practical to those who use them. And, most importantly, without detrimental effects on crime rates.

"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed

This is from the NY Times (for which my nickname is Pravda On The Hudson: POTH) so caveat lector:==============

PHOENIX — Arizona used to be a knife carrier’s nightmare, with a patchwork of local laws that forced those inclined to strap Buck knives or other sharp objects to their belts to tread carefully as they moved from Phoenix (no knives except pocketknives) to Tempe (no knives at all) to Tucson (no knives on library grounds).

D’Alton Holder, a longtime knife maker, said, “It’s ridiculous to talk about the size of the knife as if that makes a difference.” But that changed earlier this year when Arizona made its Legislature the sole arbiter of knife regulations. And because of loose restrictions on weapons here, Arizona is now considered a knife carrier’s dream, a place where everything from a samurai sword to a switchblade can be carried without a quibble.

Arizona’s transformation, and the recent lifting of a ban on switchblades, stilettos, dirks and daggers in New Hampshire, has given new life to the knife rights lobby, the little-known cousin of the more politically potent gun rights movement. Its vision is a knife-friendly America, where blades are viewed not as ominous but as tools — the equivalent of sharp-edged screw drivers or hammers — that serve useful purposes and can save lives as well as take them.

Sure, knife fights and knife attacks are a concern. No knife-lover would ever deny that. In fact, Todd Rathner, the lobbyist for Knife Rights Inc., an advocacy group based in Arizona that is now in its third year, was mugged twice in New York City before moving to Tucson, once — “ironically,” he said — at knifepoint.

But the problem is with the knife wielder, not the knife itself, the knife lobby says, sounding very much like those who advocate for gun rights.

In fact, knife advocates contend that the Second Amendment applies to knives as well as guns. They focus their argument elsewhere, though, emphasizing that knives fill so many beneficial roles, from carving Thanksgiving turkeys to whittling, that they do not deserve the bad name they often get.

“People talk about how knives are dangerous, and then they go in the kitchen and they have 50 of them,” said D’Alton Holder, a veteran knife maker who lives in Wickenberg, Ariz. “It’s ridiculous to talk about the size of the knife as if that makes a difference. If you carry a machete that’s three feet long, it’s no more dangerous than any knife. You can do just as much damage with an inch-long blade, even a box cutter.”

As for the pocketknife he carries with him every day, Mr. Holder said: “I use it for everything — to clean my fingernails, to prune a tree or carve, even to eat dinner with. I never think about the knives that I carry or the knives that I make as weapons.”

Jennifer Coffey, the New Hampshire state representative who led the effort to overturn the state’s switchblade ban, is also an emergency medical technician who uses knives to extract people from vehicles after accidents. Even when switchblades were outlawed, there were exceptions for emergency workers and others who might use them on the job, but Ms. Coffey still considered the law outrageous.

“We had certain knives that were illegal, but I could walk down the street with a kitchen knife that I used to carve a turkey and that would be legal,” Ms. Coffey said. “I’d be more scared of a kitchen knife than a switchblade.”

She said switchblade bans were passed in the 1950s because of the menacing use of the knives in movies like “West Side Story” and “Rebel Without a Cause.” Her legislation drew the support of an array of knife-related entities: Knife Rights, a young upstart in knife advocacy; the American Knife and Tool Institute, a group based in Wyoming that represents knife manufacturers, sellers and owners; and publications like Blade, Cutlery News Journal and Knife World.

The effort to lift the ban on switchblades in New Hampshire even won the support of the New Hampshire Association of Chiefs of Police.

==========

In Arizona, however, police groups were more circumspect about lifting all of the local knife laws. The Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police opposed the move, saying local jurisdictions ought to set their own knife restrictions. The Phoenix Law Enforcement Association remained neutral.

In much of the country, especially in urban areas, knives are still viewed as weapons in need of tight control. District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.

“What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.

Mr. Vance’s offensive drew the ire of the American Knife and Tool Institute, which issued an “action alert” and offered to assist New York retailers and individuals charged with knife violations with their legal defenses.

The knife lobby similarly rose up in 2009 when the federal Customs and Border Protection agency issued a proposal that would have reclassified many pocketknives and pocket tools as switchblades and thus made them illegal for import or sale across state lines under the 1958 federal Switchblade Act. In the end, Congress intervened and blocked the change.

A case now unfolding in Seattle shows how volatile knives continue to be. A police officer there fatally shot a man in August after, the officer said, he ordered the man several times to drop a knife that he was carrying. But the legitimacy of the shooting has been questioned by the Police Department, partly because the knife, which had a three-inch blade, was found in a closed position near the body of the dead man, who had been using it to carve a piece of wood.

Knife advocates are hoping that, just as Arizona’s immigration law has led to a national debate on that topic, its move to end knife restrictions will lead more states to take up the cause.

“Arizona is now the model when it comes to knives,” said Mr. Rathner, who was a National Rifle Association lobbyist before he switched to knives. “We’re now going to be moving to other states, probably in the Rocky Mountains and the Southeast. There’s probably half a dozen or more places that are ripe for this.”

Wow......They haven't taken any guns yet, and they're already fantasizing about knife bans.......Hubris in spades. The UK has moved on from banning knives to attempting to ban certain martial arts and martial 'artists' considered 'too dangerous' for it's citizens to possess knowledge of..........All this while the streets of Europe are becoming more dangerous as they flood their countries with alien cultures that are fundamentally antagonistic.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares often find themselves toiling under the yokes of those who kept their swords.

'Cocaine is a helluva drug' -Al Sharpton (said to undercover agents during a sting)

I'm not worried about pocket knives, i'd be more worried about Al calling me an 'interloper' and sending one of his thugs in to burn my store down with me in it........Seems to be the way he does business.

"Another interesting question might have been, if I was stopped by the officer in LA and he noticed my 6" screwdriver on the seat next to me; what would he do? Probably nothing, but IF he asked, "what is the screwdriver for?" and I said, "self defense", he would be entitled to arrest me for having a dagger longer than 3" (LA City Limit).

"But the issue still is not "intent". The issue is whether the instrument is legal to carry or not."

Disagree. By your own words it is precisely the intent that turns it into a dagger.

As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them. Yes?

I hope you don't mind me dropping this in here. I know the conversation was... quite some time ago, but I think this might be relevant. In People v. Fannin it is shown that intent can make a legal tool an illegal weapon. Johnny Fannin was found in possession of a chain with a lock on the end, and though he would later claim to use it as a bike lock, when asked by the officer what it was for he said it was for self-defense. The court ruled that this showed intent to use it as a weapon, and as one which is illegal under CA law. Now I don't have a background in law so I could be missing something, or even what you were saying in your post, but it does seem to me at least that this shows that it can come down to intent.

b) I think if you go back and look at the post to which I was responding and note my use of quotation marks you will see that you are saying the same thing as me

Cool. I thought that was what you were saying, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the treat.

Oh, and also, it can get even worse though than just being something as simple as intent that changes something from a tool to an illegal weapon. I believe it was in People v. Grubb that it was ruled that the people do not even need to be able to show that your intent is to use it in an illegal manner, but that you can defend yourself by being able to demonstrate your ability and intent to use an item in it's intended manner. Sounds a little like guilty until proven innocent to me. But again, I don't have a background in the law.

Your bringing case citations into the conversation is appreciated; it helps the value of this forum as a resource tool.

A friend has sidebarred me as follows:----------------------------------------------------------------

Knife Laws are dear to my heart since I carry a folding blade everywhere I go. Further, on this Forum, I think the discussion of knife laws is particularly important.

You said;"As for the right to not answer, I suppose so-- but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them. Yes?"

And the answer is a resounding "No".

I think it's important to read the entire People v. Fannin decision.

"if the object is not a weapon per se, but an instrument with ordinary innocent uses, the prosecution must prove that the object was possessed as a weapon."

Anotherwords, if the defendant had simply remained silent it would/could not have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be an illegal "weapon". A screwdriver is another example. But if I admit as a defendant I'm carry a hidden long screwdriver or even a 5" sharpened thick pencil for self defense, it may now be considered a concealed illegal dirk or dagger.

Without my admission, the LEO can "negatively infer" all he wants to no avail. Without admission, the issue is not intent, but whether the instrument is an illegal weapon as specifically defined by the legislature.

My folding blade is legal in the state of CA. If I am stopped by a police officer I may clearly say the purpose of this knife is self defense. I have been stopped; no one has questioned my answer because this particular weapon is not on nor can it be inferred to be on the banned list.

" but I submit that an answer the equivalent of "I don't have to tell you" is likely to heighten the LEO's propensity to make all the negative inferences he can and act upon them. Yes?""

It is my belief and philosophy that even if an arrest does not lead to conviction, as a practical matter you are thousands of dollars poorer and emotionally drained by your interaction with the legal system. IMHO it is wise to keep this in mind when conversing with an officer. Playing Perry Mason rarely plays well and even if he does not go after you for the arrest that will not lead to conviction he may decide to write you up for that tail light you did not realize was out, etc. Good manners is good policy.