LeeLee wrote:but what happens when your dead? It cant just be all black, because you will have some sort of idea of whats going on to know 'its all black'. Answers on a postcard please.

I don't think it's just "all black", I just think you're not there anymore. Like someones pushed the off switch, you're just not there. I think there is just nothing when you die. The thought of someone dying and just being dead upsets me I guess, I'd like there to be God and an afterlife, but I can't believe it.

I was brought up in a Catholic household, baptised, communion & confirmation. What turned me at around 14 was the sheer homophobic and backwards attitude of the church. I'm not gay myself but if someone wants to be, I have no problem about that. However my dad and catholic side of my family think this is morally wrong and the person should be persucuted for disobeying "God's natural order". This has lead to many heated debates. I finally stopped going to church (or chapel as its called in Scotland) when I was 15, shortly after the election of Benedict XVI. Was I fuck going to be a follower of a religion with a former member of the hitler youth as its "Representative of God on earth".

So now I have no religion. I believe that all religions cause friction in society. You only have to look at places like Iraq, Northern Ireland, Scotland to see the history of sectarian violence and its brutal consequences. It's an avoidable divider of society and the sooner we scrap a "state" religion and organisations such as the orange order the better.

Something that's confused me is how religious people seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious text they want to believe/abide by. Is that how it works? Or is that believing in a God but choosing not to follow the teachings that aren't convenient to you and in which case is that not as bad as not believing. Where is the cut off point? Always intrigued me.

I've also always been confused about why I should devote my life to a man in the sky who does nothing to assist me in my life and has the ultimate power to stop any bad things from happening across the world though obviously chooses not to.

If god does exist he's a lazy git that's not doing much and should buck his ideas up or at least allow us to have an election for his position. We needed god as an explanation for the unexplainable way back in the days of Romans (like before Giggs even played for United), now we have science that does it all for us without any mention of a vengeful homophobic but also loving sky god.

All that being said, I'd still fight for anyones right to believe any mumbo jumbo they see fit to improve their lives, so long as they don't kill anyone in the name of it.

Elemental wrote:Something that's confused me is how religious people seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious text they want to believe/abide by. Is that how it works? Or is that believing in a God but choosing not to follow the teachings that aren't convenient to you and in which case is that not as bad as not believing. Where is the cut off point? Always intrigued me.

I can never fathom how [modern] Christians, and I guess all followers of Judeo-Christian religions, can simultaneously accept/believe Creationism and Evolution. It's like fucking doublethink.

Elemental wrote:Something that's confused me is how religious people seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious text they want to believe/abide by. Is that how it works? Or is that believing in a God but choosing not to follow the teachings that aren't convenient to you and in which case is that not as bad as not believing. Where is the cut off point? Always intrigued me.

I've also always been confused about why I should devote my life to a man in the sky who does nothing to assist me in my life and has the ultimate power to stop any bad things from happening across the world though obviously chooses not to.

If god does exist he's a lazy git that's not doing much and should buck his ideas up or at least allow us to have an election for his position. We needed god as an explanation for the unexplainable way back in the days of Romans (like before Giggs even played for United), now we have science that does it all for us without any mention of a vengeful homophobic but also loving sky god.

All that being said, I'd still fight for anyones right to believe any mumbo jumbo they see fit to improve their lives, so long as they don't kill anyone in the name of it.

How about we just name you god then yeah?

I just think that sounds arrogant. And that's what rattles me. Sorry if i'm wrong.

Personally, i think this thread is a load of utter shit. It's a topic thats almost UN-debatable... people always have different opinions on this and there's never a real answer. So it's just a bunch of wasted time really.

Elemental wrote:Something that's confused me is how religious people seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious text they want to believe/abide by. Is that how it works? Or is that believing in a God but choosing not to follow the teachings that aren't convenient to you and in which case is that not as bad as not believing. Where is the cut off point? Always intrigued me.

I can never fathom how [modern] Christians, and I guess all followers of Judeo-Christian religions, can simultaneously accept/believe Creationism and Evolution. It's like fucking doublethink.

Can you not? I believe in evolution but also that there is some higher power above that. I think you can definitely believe in both! Especially in my individual case where I do Medical Science, a large proportion of which assumes you to believe in evolution! And I think that to an extent most people pick and choose parts of religion that they believe in, and for me I'd rather interpret it a the way that I can believe in than not have any faith at all. But thats just me. I find this thread very interesting, just seeing different people's points of view.

Jennie wrote:It's a topic thats almost UN-debatable... people always have different opinions on this and there's never a real answer.

My point exactly, and it's the same with politics...Yet imo that's even worse because it's not about proving what is and what isn't, rather what should and what shouldn't...And there's no right or wrong there either because every person will think one way works over another.

Jennie wrote:So it's just a bunch of wasted time really.

I think talking about the environment and economy is more important. Yet it seems there's not much going on there.

Jennie wrote:Personally, i think this thread is a load of utter shit. It's a topic thats almost UN-debatable... people always have different opinions on this and there's never a real answer. So it's just a bunch of wasted time really.

Word up.

Reincarnation please. I want to live again as a bird and be able to fly the skies free.

Elemental wrote:Something that's confused me is how religious people seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious text they want to believe/abide by. Is that how it works? Or is that believing in a God but choosing not to follow the teachings that aren't convenient to you and in which case is that not as bad as not believing. Where is the cut off point? Always intrigued me.

I've also always been confused about why I should devote my life to a man in the sky who does nothing to assist me in my life and has the ultimate power to stop any bad things from happening across the world though obviously chooses not to.

If god does exist he's a lazy git that's not doing much and should buck his ideas up or at least allow us to have an election for his position. We needed god as an explanation for the unexplainable way back in the days of Romans (like before Giggs even played for United), now we have science that does it all for us without any mention of a vengeful homophobic but also loving sky god.

All that being said, I'd still fight for anyones right to believe any mumbo jumbo they see fit to improve their lives, so long as they don't kill anyone in the name of it.

How about we just name you god then yeah?

I just think that sounds arrogant. And that's what rattles me. Sorry if i'm wrong.

Would like to add that wasn't an attack on religious believers, as it says at the bottom I'd fight for your right to believe it but I have as much right to speak what I believe as anyone else does. Just because my views are a little rough around the edges and potentially negative.

I think talking about the environment and economy is more important. Yet it seems there's not much going on there.

I doubt anyone here has the intentions of converting people to their side, we're just discussing our beliefs, so it's not really a waste of time unless having conversations is a waste of time. And it's not like talking about the economy or global warming on the internet is going to accomplish much either so I don't see how that's more important...

Theres no point in it because it just causes conflict... Everything is just an opinion, whats the point in debating something that isn't going to end? There's no evidence to back up anyone's opinion or belief so it's just going to go round in circles... Some people just like the fact they're free to have a nice big negative rant about what ever the subject matter.Because they obviously think its the new in thing to do.

Matt, maybe it came across arrogant because of the "rough edges", the negativity and the choice of words, soz if i offended.

Eh true about proving points. This shouldn't really be a "debate" (despite the name) because it should be more of a respectable conversation where everyone can see everyone else's views if they so choose to post them. And if something is negative it must be positive to something else wouldn't it? Like pro-this and anti-that.

but yeah i understand why religion is hard to discuss for somepeople as it makes them uneasy I guess.

It's ok I wasn't offended, it's understandable for you to respond in that way because I was saying unfavorable things about something you feel passionate about. Having lost a lot of my family to cancer and had so much bad (natural) shit happen across the world in my life time, I can't see me ever saying a gracious word about a god, even more so if he exists.

I have no bad feelings towards you/anyone or the fact you believe, I hope the feeling is mutual!

Slightly going off topic a little here, and I'm not sure if I've understood it wrongly, but a couple of people have said about there being something when you're dead, like an afterlife, and implying that you need believe in God to think there is one?'Cause I'm not very religious, but I don't think we just disappear when we die either. I believe in ghosts and spirits due to knowing people that are 'connected' with them if you get what I mean.

Also, like Niamh said, I do philosophy too and it is pretty difficult to find an explanation for there being a God/Gods. There are some philosophers that say there is a God but they're pretty much from a couple of hundred years ago when Christianity was more followed than it is today.

Elemental wrote:Something that's confused me is how religious people seem to pick and choose which parts of their religious text they want to believe/abide by. Is that how it works? Or is that believing in a God but choosing not to follow the teachings that aren't convenient to you and in which case is that not as bad as not believing. Where is the cut off point? Always intrigued me.

I can never fathom how [modern] Christians, and I guess all followers of Judeo-Christian religions, can simultaneously accept/believe Creationism and Evolution. It's like fucking doublethink.

Can you not? I believe in evolution but also that there is some higher power above that. I think you can definitely believe in both!

Yeah, I'd definitely say that I could probably believe that there's a higher power above all that.

I just meant that I find it weird when they believe that God created man [pretty much] as he is today and at the exact time accept that we evolved over millions of years from primates.I totally get the idea that a god created the world and everything and it evolved from there.

technically, i'm a christian, i was confirmed, but only because my mum fed me through it so i had a chance to get into better high schools, the C of E ones. didn't go either anyway cause i went to a grammar school.i'm gonna put my arguement across, and it might sound harsh to some people, and sorry if it does.

but quite honestly, i think religion pretty much ruins this planet. and i think in say, 50-100 years, they're gonna look back at our generation and think we were a bunch of retards. like what we think about the believers in the world being flat.

why i think it's ruined this planet. there's so many religions out there, with people who have very extreme point of views on their religion, and even die for their religion. Wars can be very religion based, so many people dying over a point of view. i'm pretty sure the gods want this to happen on the sly, betting on it up their in the clouds. all this terrorist stuff is based on religious points of view. it's ridiculous.

but you can tell, even in the past 10-15 years, the numbers of churchgoers has plummeted, and it's now become normal (thank fuck) to not go to church. it's the beginning of a religion wipeout. it can only grow and increase.

thing is, we're an intelligent species, worshipping something that isn't proven at all, a general myth. we have all this scientific evidence that evolution exists and stuff about the big bang theory. i personally think the bible is a story passed down and elaborated on/exaggerated over thousands of generations. there might have been some bloke back then called Jesus who was seen as some sort of celebrity for lack of a better word, or a hero perhaps, who had a following, stories were told about him which got written down eventually and passed down. some elements may be true, but stories about moses splitting the sea in two and jesus coming back to life. come on, if that story was published in the press nowadays, it'd be laughed upon and deemed impossible and someone would be sent to the loony bin.

i also don't like how you're kinda, forcefed the information in primary school, when you're very manipulative and they'll believe anything. well i don't know what it's like now, but when i was there, it was always praying and singing hymns in assembley. shouldn't be like that i don't think.

what else? oh, afterlife and shit. well there's no heaven and hell for starters, lets just demolish that idea. but i dunno what to believe there, cause there's no scientific evidence. your brain dies, so if there is something, how can you think it or "live it" with no brain working. i dunno, i think it's just black really. but how are you to know it's just a black screen with a dead brain. it's weird.

and finally, we are one planet among millions or so in this ridiculously vast universe. there's gotta be life on another planet somewhere, do they also have gods, or do we share with this other lifeform, or are they more intelligent than us and don't worship anything and have a better means of society?

Well there's around 100-500 billion galaxies in the universe each with hundreds of billions of stars, and say each star has at least 5 planets orbiting them (on average perhaps). So let's suppose there's 250 billion galaxies each with 250 billion stars with 5 planets to each star. That's 312,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets. - yeah I'm going to put my money on we're not the only "intelligent" species out there.

(I don't actually know how many planets on average orbit a star so I used 5.)

I agree with Matt and Patrick, although.. about the afterlife thing. I don't think you go anywhere after you die, but I do believe in spirits.. not that I've ever seen one I don't think. But there's "something" not quite sure what it is. I can't say it's ghosts but there is something.