Aside from 2 +20 hate randarts, it looks like +hate egos are relatively rare and low-power. But yeah, there is a risk of someone going crazy and getting 200+ hate so maybe the 2nd option is best - so all effects are 0-100, and the benefit of +max hate is that you can go past 100 to use hate consumers while still retaining 100% rampage.

_________________<Shibari> You're full of shit<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered

I dunno, the idea of a randboss Sawbutcher/Cursed with 2000% movespeed running across the screen, running over the player and then zooming off into the distance is amusing me. But maybe not the best idea.

A vague idea for a generic tree for Cursed/Doomed - this would be if we replaced Ruined Earth in it's existing spot with something else todo with cursed items (despite what I said before, Cursed Sentry definitely fits the tree even I still think it feels more like a Mindslayer talent or something. But won't be changing it!)

So the idea is to focus on creating a killing zone for you to fight in - you can invest a bit into the first talent to get the current benefit, or go heavy to combine with Gloom for an absolute murderpit. This is a v. early draft so there's 5 talents in there till I decide what ones to keep (or if I even want to keep this tree).

Code:

Ruin

Ruined Earth | 30 CooldownCurse the earth around you in a radius of 3-8 for 5-9 turns. Those within are weakened, reducing the damage they inflict by 25-57%.

Killing Field | Killing an enemy or taking damage above x% of maximum life creates a radius 1 patch of ruined earth around them/you. If the earth is already ruined, amplifies it+extends duration?

Epicenter |Reduces CD of Ruined Earth. Activating Ruined Earth creates a more powerful patch of smaller radius that does some stuff - maybe a damage amplification effect that echoes damage taken as a % bonus mind damage.

Call to Harvest | 12 CooldownTeleports enemies adjacent to you if you are within your ruined earth and debuffs them in some way. Pin, confuse...?

Yeah I think either a) the key Cursed debuffs need to become irresistible as it's no fun losing a big portion of damage/effects due to random saves or b) give em something that lets them land all types of effects via increased MP rather than just Gloom. Maybe in the now-empty Surge spot? Rename it and have it be the mental sustain (so we have the offensive cleave, defensive repel, and utility 'surge').

I don't like the idea of irresistible. Let us keep in mind that we are going to have to fight these new Cursed ourselves. I am already finding the new Rogue and the proliferation of Dirty Fighting almost removing my movement infusion to be quite troublesome. Having a mob with really high stats be able to CC you is one thing, having every mob which Cursed talents chain CC just by being in your general vicinity (and having a massive permanent movespeed bonus) could be problematic.

I'm as keen as anyone to give Cursed a bump but let us also keep in mind what it will be like for us to fight these enemies. The 'easier' classes are easy for the AI to play.

Erm, maybe my math is wrong but that looks like five talents* in one category? In any case, I'm not sure I can say much about those Ruined Earth talents as they are presented now. Maybe as an idea though, we could make them interact heavily with the Hate Resource.

-Wastewalker feels like an unnecessary talent sink - maybe we could instead change Ruined Earth so that the Damage Malus scales off of Hate Resource, thus negating a need for it (and adding an interesting situation of what happens when you run up against an Afflicted Rare as a Afflicted?).-Killing Field could maybe give you a massive boost to your Hate Resource when you kill or take a big hit inside Ruined Earth.-I'm not sure I fully understand what you want Epicenter to do? Is it some sort of AoE on top of the existing AoE? Sounds confusing to me.-Aren't enemies already having a hard enough time against you in Ruined Earth? Does we need a talent like Call to Harvest to make life even worse for them? I think it might be more interesting if Call to Harvest instead only targeted enemies 'outside' of your Ruined Earth; maybe Talent Level tiles on top of whatever radius Ruined Earth has, or against any foe that used a Teleport or Phase Door in the previous turn - such as Pyro and Cryo mancers or annoying Imps.

So Housepet is this rework of yours something which is more or less complete or is it a WiP ?

The current form is more of a test bed for some ideas, as all suggestions for fixing Hate tended to be either making Hate ridiculously complicated or similar to other resources, and all talent suggestions were basically about making Rampage/Gloom more powerful and ignoring everything else. So I went with putting something a bit different together to get people to think more broadly about the classes.

The next step was to work out which bits of the original and the reworked classes worked well and then rewrite around them.I'm fairly happy with Gifted, but something seems off with how Cursed came out. Not sure if I'm just being hypercritical of myself though.

_________________My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.

Ruined Earth is the only talent in that category I wouldn't want to heavily do-over. If it were up to me, cut the rest of that category cause it is dumb unbalanced tacky gimmicks, make Ruined Earth capstone talent in Cursed Form, and merge the 3 existing bad talents in Cursed Form into 2 okay ones.

Razakai wrote:

Alright, here's the first draft for Cursed unlocked class trees, and some design thoughts. After I get Archer sorted out and 1.5 is live I might gather some more feedback and consider writing an addon for people to try out.

Mostly sounds great. Obviously in need of number tweaks, but this OP-looking rough draft is a significant improvement on the status quo. Beckon is really awkward, but that's already true and I can't think of any way to make it not awkward and weird.

Aside from 2 +20 hate randarts, it looks like +hate egos are relatively rare and low-power. But yeah, there is a risk of someone going crazy and getting 200+ hate so maybe the 2nd option is best - so all effects are 0-100, and the benefit of +max hate is that you can go past 100 to use hate consumers while still retaining 100% rampage.

Maybe to make a locked tree based on the concept of 100+ hate, while keeping all effects 0-100 for unlocked talents? I kind of like the concept of Cursed going super saiyan when his hate exceeds normal boundary.

This tree could be mainly about active talents, which makes the tree works like super moves in a fighting game. Think this would be a good fit if people want to keep Cursed having less spammable talents. The first talent could be a passive which increases your max hate capacity, giving you extra buffs when your hate is 100+, but with certain consequences?

haha, maybe not that generic tree then. We could merge Seethe and Grim Resolve together and tweak em a bit - a general 'get more stuff on being damaged' with maybe a % chance to clear some type of negative effects based on stats, as the current ones are a bit weak. Ruined Earth doesn't entirely fit thematically could you could fluff it into fitting there and mechanically it'd be fine.

I still think Cursed could do with 1 more generic category to round them out though, especially if Defiling Touch gets tweaked to only need 5 levels (I think 10 is overkill for what it does). Not quite sure what would fit.

To be clear I was hating on the Cursed Aura cat, not your Ruined Earth idea, lol. I'm not big on a whole cat for Ruined Earth either, but i think Sentry is incredibly unthematic and the cursed items thing is just bad.

Yeah I do feel like Cursed Sentry feels like something a Mindslayer should be doing, telekinetically making weapons fight for you is their thing after all. Otoh it is very strong and some people like it so I'm a bit hesitant with regards to removing it. Maybe if Cursed get into a state where they have loads of thematic and powerful talents it could be cut.

Cursed items are pretty gimmicky and weird but I think there's something that could be salvaged there. It'd need a lot of reworking - I'd probably start by making all the cursed effects actually powerful and unique, cut Defiling Touch down to 5 points (and merge with Dark Gifts perhaps so it becomes a one-stop shop for 'curse gear and get buffs') and then do something else with it.

re: cursed items, don't kill cursed sentry it's unique and fun. the curses that aren't nightmares and shrouds should become useful (currently they suffer from both low numbers and weak effects in general, so they'd need reworking from the ground up, and tbh the only good stuff in nightmares is the level 4. shrouds is good tho and should be the general power level all curses are at.) and i'd definitely support the tree being less of a generic sink by merging cursed touch and dark gift

_________________<Shibari> You're full of shit<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered

resist all on movement (and to a lesser extent on kill), yeah. synergises really well with rampage's movespeed too

_________________<Shibari> You're full of shit<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered

Regarding Fears - an idea for how a new version could work. Basically make the separate fear effects more reliable by changing them all to a variation of 'mitigate damage', put some additional effects like debuffing resists in via other talents, add fear resist penetration, and make a 'flashier' capstone that rewards you for sitting there spamming fears. Probably op atm as you can make bosses incapable of doing anything of note! But yeah here's a rough draft - https://hastebin.com/kiyovamuhi.vbs

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