WoW having more subs than SWTOR is the same thing as Justin Bieber having more youtube plays than Tupac. Just because its more popular doesn't mean its good.
Warcraft Lore has gone from one of the most vast and interesting stories in all of gaming to a bad Thrall Fanfic by Chris Metzen.
SWTOR Referral link: http://www.swtor.com/r/2MpjV9 7 free days and other free stuff.

I find it highly amusing reading about all the hype surrounding new MMO's, how they're going to be amazing and kill wow, then a few months down the line reading about how the game went F2P because people stopped playing it, or how it has become a failure etc etc...

Ask yourself: if they had been given a crystal ball to look ahead in time to see what the outcome would have been, do you think they would have developed the game?

(Answer: clearly not.)

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

Doubt they would have to be fair, I just don't see it being profitable enough so far that it was worth the investment and manpower over such a long time, more than likely they would have got better returns from a low risk investment over the same time period without the need to have manpower locked in to a project, over time that might change, or it might not but here and now I'd say the answer would be no.

Depends on whether you are asking Matt, whats-his-name, who is now in charge of Austin or Johnny the one in charge of EA.

I suspect Matt would say "yes" because he wouldn't have a job there otherwise. While I suspect Johnny would say "no" and would probably have gone for Kotor 2012 instead.

Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.

Ask yourself: if they had been given a crystal ball to look ahead in time to see what the outcome would have been, do you think they would have developed the game?

A more fair question would be: If they had known the outcome of the game back when they were still developing it, would they have still had the confidence to continue building an MMO, or would they have completely changed their plan and released a different game?

Personally, I believe they would have had a much better success making Kotor III. They wouldn't have needed EA's help, the fans would have been happy and they wouldn't have tarnished their reputation by trying to take on a project that they clearly weren't ready for. (Unless, of course, it received the same reception as Mass Effect 3...)

I know some of the more die-hard fans have unshakable faith in SWTOR, but even they must admit that, based on what's happened with the game, there will not be another Star Wars MMO for a very long time, if ever. And that's not because the game will still be going strong 10 years from now like Bioware had hoped.

The game's greatest failure, was ensuring that LucasArts would not repeat the same mistake a 3rd time.

Ask yourself: if they had been given a crystal ball to look ahead in time to see what the outcome would have been, do you think they would have developed the game?

(Answer: clearly not.)

Nice take. While your answer is the most likely, I'm still not 100% sure if they had not developed it at all or just developed it differently. Or marketed it differently (no monthly fee, but only one class story comes with the game, every other at a price).

Generally when it comes to anything other than their yearly sports game updates, I feel EA is stumbling in the dark. Badly. A few weeks after Ricitiello tries to sell "digital distribution" and "social games" to the press and his investors, Zynga implodes and drags Facebook fürther down with it.

The game's greatest failure, was ensuring that LucasArts would not repeat the same mistake a 3rd time.

Pretty sure the millions of dollars they paid him to pad his ranch with more stuff ensures that he will keep bastardizing his one good idea as long as possible. This game is still better than the last 3 movies combined.

Pretty sure the millions of dollars they paid him to pad his ranch with more stuff ensures that he will keep bastardizing his one good idea as long as possible. This game is still better than the last 3 movies combined.

Ok. I should have said he will keep bastardizing his only good ideas, to include wha you referenced. So we will also add Kingdom of the Crystal Skull in with how he will do anything terrible for money.

Precisely. RIFT never tried to be the WoW killer, though some fans certainly wanted to paint it in that light early on. RIFT does it's thing. That's why it doesn't feel like such a failure.

Not to take the topic into a different direction, but RIFT was pretty blatant in trying to directly compete with WoW. Remember the "You're not in Azeroth anymore" or whatever advertisements plastered all over the internet?

This was probably already covered as well, but to hell with going through 400 pages.

Not to take the topic into a different direction, but RIFT was pretty blatant in trying to directly compete with WoW. Remember the "You're not in Azeroth anymore" or whatever advertisements plastered all over the internet?

Or it was simply an attempt at some tongue in cheek humor in their advertisement, but hey just because it's a competitor with the almighty WoW it has to be literal and dead serious in attempting to not only be better but also make it die in a blaze...right?

Actually, the industry considers SWToR to be a failure. The worst part of it is, I was still keeping my fingers crossed for Dragon Age 3 to be epic but now that EA has eaten up and destroyed BW (so many major BW people have left), donno if it'll happen.

SWToR deserved to fail because it was one of the worst possible released game, clearly not ready for release. I think if BW had their way, they would have pushed back the release another few months but they had EA breathing down their necks. I have played BW games, it is sorry to see another good bunch of developers destroyed by EA.

The game did not meet the expectations of over 75% of the people who purchased it. I think under 25% is a failure in any walk of life be it school grades or work output. This is a fact and no matter what any SWToR fan says, this fact can not be refuted.

The game did not meet the expectations of over 75% of the people who purchased it. I think under 25% is a failure in any walk of life be it school grades or work output. This is a fact and no matter what any SWToR fan says, this fact can not be refuted.

Actually, it's a twisted fact that makes no sense. If you maintain a higher subscriber base than every other sub-based MMO out there but 1, even after losing 75% of your subscribers, how can that be considered a failure?

Let's put it this way. When WoW came out, had it sold 4 million copies and then lost 3 million of those subs, would it be considered a failure? Keeping in mind that 500k subscribers, at the time, was considered wildly successful in the genre? I think that you need to re-evaluate your criteria for "failure".

In this case, it comes down to cost vs. return. Not some arbitrary belief of what "failure" or "success" is.