I think you are overconfident for nothing, have you ever toughed about why majority of muslims dont share your beliefs? What you have putt forward is very easy to explane. Firstly shia have always the tendency hiding the proper context when they make their clime. If they present the narations in its proper context it would have destroyed their arguments. So you have to take the linguisticall Historical, and textual context in consideration or ells any one can make any thing out of nothing.

Lets as now go through your evidence

Originally posted by Ali Zaki

You have asked my all time favorite question! Thank you!

The First Time

" When the verse: "And warn thy nearest relations (26:214), was revealed, the Prophet ordered 'Ali to prepare food and invite the sons of 'Abdu'l-Muttalib so that he could convey to them the words of Allah. After the feast, the Prophet intended to talk to them, but Abu Lahab interfered by saying:"Verily, your comrade has entranced you". Upon hearing this statement all of them dispersed.

The next day, the Messenger of Allah again called them for a feast. After they had finished with their food, the Prophet addressed them: "O sons of 'Abdul'l-Muttalib, I have brought for you the good of this world and the next, and I have been appointed by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will administer this cause for me and be my brother, my successor and my caliph?" No one responded to the Prophet' s call except 'Ali who was the youngest of the congregation. The Prophet then patted 'Ali's neck and said: "O my people! This 'A1i is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.'' [16] "

They laughed, saying to Abu Talib: He (Muhammad) commanded you to listen to your son(ali) and to obey him."

The Prophet(saw) said "..my successor and my caliph(leader) amongst you". I ask you to whom did he say this too? who was he addressing? it wasn't amongst the muslims if you follow the context, the prophet was inviting sons of Abd Al Muttalib to islam? It was only amongs them he said this.

The Second Time

" Abu Dharr al-Ghifari says that one day he was praying with the Prophet when a beggar came to the Prophet's mosque. No one responded to his pleas. The beggar raised his hands towards heavens and said, "Allah! be a witness that I came to Thy Prophet's mosque and no one gave me anything". 'Ali (as) was bowing in ruku' at that time. He pointed his little finger, on which was a ring, towards the beggar who came forward and took away the ring. This incident occurred in the Prophet's presence who raised his face towards heaven and prayed: "O Lord! my brother Musa had begged of Thee to open his breast and to make his work easy for him, to loose the knot of his tongue so that people might understand him, and to appoint from among his relations his brother, as his vizier, and to strengthen his back with Harun and to make Harun his partner in his work. O Allah! Thou said to Musa, 'We will strengthen thy arm with thy brother. No one will now have an access to either of you!' O Allah! I am Muhammad and Thou hast given me distinction. Open my breast for me, make my work easy for me, and from my family appoint my brother 'Ali as my vizier. Strengthen my back with him". The Prophet had not yet finished his prayers when Jibril brought the above quoted verse. [17] "

This is what i call building a case out of straws. Where douse the prophet say Ali(ra) is my successor? is this what you call clear evidence?

The Third Timesnippet unauthentic version

Ghadeer declaration is the most popular shia arguments to prove Ali(ra) nomination as caliph. But what they fail mention is the background behind this statement. It was when an expedition and led by Ali(ra) return from its mission that some people from the expedition started to complain to the Prophet(saw) that Ali(ra) has done such and such. It was after that the prophet(saw) said this words "man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah". It was not in any way a declaration that Ali(ra) was hes successor. If the prophet(saw) wanted to declare Ali as caliph he could have done that during the Hajj on the day of Arafa and not after.

ALSO:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

Again the shia hide the reason why the prophet said this hadith. The prophet left Ali(ra) to command People while all other men followed, Ali(ra) did not wanted to be left behind. It was after that the prophet used this analogy to Haroon(as) who was left in in charge over his people while Musa(as) went to mount Sani. Even if we putt aside the context answer me this was Haroon(as) successor to Moses(as)?

If, by " it all started with Uthman ibn affans(ra) death and hes killers." you are implying that Imam Ali(A.S.) had something to do with the assasination of Uthman (as Muawiya ibn abu Suffian did) then please present your evidence for this.

Any one who climes Ali(ra) had something to do with Uthamns(ra) dead is not different from shias.

In his famous collection of speechs, "Nagul Balagha", Imam Ali says in sermon 22 about those who accussed him of participating or sactioning the killing of Uthman

sermonis in nahjul-balaghah are pure fabrications it was written many generations after Ali(ra) and the author doesn't give any chain of transmission, which makes the books worthless as historical evidence

With due respect, neither of us are religious scholars (at least I know I am not). In this regard, I would appreciate if you would quote the sources (scholarly sources) of your opinion, as I have done. If we are just going to give our opinions, as the British say, 'higly-piggly', then this discussion will not really go anywhere.

In regards to your comments on the Hadith of Ghadir, I would like to give some further credence to my assertion.

The following Ayat, which was the last Ayat of the Quran was revealed immediately after the decleration of Ghadir.

" Today I have perfected for you your religion, completed for you My bounty, and chosen Islam for you as religion. (5:3)"

As we know, the hadith of Ghadir includes the statement that,

" O you people! Know it well that Jibril came down to me several times bringing me orders from the Lord, the Merciful, that I should halt at this place and inform every man, white and black, that 'Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother and my wasiyy (successor) and my caliph".

Putting aside further academic research, doesn't it seem to be logical that "Today" is refering to the day and the perfection, bounty and completion are the descriptive adjective refering to the important event that occured on the day which is referenced.

Was there anything else that may have occured on that day which would meet all these qualification (i.e., perfection, bounty and completion of the religion)?

If the purpose of the verse was to convey some limited authority given to Imam Ali (a.s), would not the time limit for that authority have been specified?

I don't understand your statement " If the prophet(saw) wanted to declare Ali as caliph he could have done that during the Hajj on the day of Arafa and not after." Why? Are you restricting the authority of the Prophet? Does the Holy Quran not specify that" "The Prophet has a greater claim to the souls of the believers than the believers themselves."(33:6)" Again, this authority is not restricted to any time or place, and extends even to the day of Judgement.

To further support this

Ibn Jarir, on the authority of Qubaysah ibn Abi Dhu'ayb that he said: Ka'b said: "Had this verse been revealed on other than this community, they would have taken the day of its revelation as a feast in which they meet."! Then 'Umar said: O Ka'b, which verse you mean? He replied: "This day have I perfected your religion for you." 'Umar said: I know the day and place in which it was revealed... that was on Friday, on 'Arafat Day, and both of them are celebrated by us as a feast, thanks to Allah.[98]

Sorry, but I am running out of time. Inshahallah, I will complete this later. I look forward to your comments.

With respect and Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Whoever considers me his master, then Ali is his master. (He said it) at the end of the Farewell Pilgrimage, when it was confirmed that Ali would succeed, and many people congratulated him on that, including Abu Bakr and Umar who were among the well-wishers, and who were quoted as having said to the Imam, Well done, Ibn Abi Talib, overnight you have become a master of all the believers." [64]

In regards to your statement" was Haroon(as) successor to Moses(as)?" In the case of most (if not all) prophets, they nominated a succesor. Haroon inherited the authority (Imamate) over the jews whenever Musa was not present, for example, when Moses was receiving the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. Although the question of whether or not Haroon was a rasool, nabi, imam, all of these or some of them is up for debate. What is clear is that he certainly was designated as an Imam over the community in Musa's absence.

We must ask ourselves why the Prophet Muhammad says that "You are like Haroon was to Musa". If it is in regards to some limited, or restricted form of authority then why did he repeat this same hadith at several times and different occassions? The key for a sincere beliver to understand the reason for this repitition is the decleration of Ghaddir, which is why he repeats it again on that day.

In addition, the prophet (a.s.) died approx 70 days after this declaration. During those seventy days, after this statement was made, did he give any additional hadith, or receive any additional revelation which would circumscribe the authority give to Imam Ali (a.s.) at Ghadir?

If this incident was in reference to some past incident, please provide the sources for this so that the credibility may be ascertained.

REGARDING YOUR COMMENT

" The Prophet(saw) said "..my successor and my caliph(leader) amongst you". I ask you to whom did he say this too? who was he addressing? it wasn't amongst the muslims if you follow the context, the prophet was inviting sons of Abd Al Muttalib to islam? It was only amongs them he said this."

Is not a successor the person that will inherit authority, not one who current holds that authority? What does Imam Ali (a.s.) inherit? If it is the authority ( " Listen to him and obey him" ) of only these people after the death of the prophet, then what about people like Abu Talib (and others) who died before the prophet? Also, if it means some type of current authority, then how can this be while the prophet is still alive?

This is an issue of common sense. If someone is designated as the Caliphate after me, it mean the Caliphate of the Muslims. After all, didn't Omar and Abu Bakr refer to themselves as Caliphate Rasool. If the prophet already said that Ali was the Caliphate Rasool (this is the precise meaning of "my Caliphate"), then how can they claim that title for themselves.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Yes Jello, I agree. Please answer these questions so that I may understand your viewpoint better.

1.) What is the explanation of the Sunni scholars as to why, on several occasions the prophet (a.s.) refered to Imam Ali in this way (see page 5)? Could you please quote your sources in your answer.

2.) During the decleration of Ghaddir, why does the prophet (a.s.) say" man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah" before saying that Imam (a.s.) is like Haroon was to Musa..."

3.) Why did the companions, including Omar and Abu Bakr congratulate Imam Ali (a.s.) on being declared, "Amir al Mumminin" or, Master of all the Believers (see page above for sources) if their understanding was something other than the obvious one (i.e., that Imam Ali (a.s. ) had inherited the authority of the prophet (a.s.) as Haroon inherited the authority of Musa)

4.) If this authority given was only valid during the life of the Prophet (a.s.), then does that mean the Imam Ali (a.s.) had authority over the Prophet (a.s.) while he was still alive and among the community? I ask this question because, unlike Musa, the prophet (a.s.) did not leave his community after giving this authority to Imam Ali (a.s.).

Salaam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

We need to see the implications of the phrase " man kuntu mawlah fa Ali mawlah".

For anyone who knows the least of Arabic and would have taken "mawla" to mean "Imaam" (as Shias are pushing for this meaning), then what the Prophet is basically saying is that He himself and Ali are both Imaams at the same time. And there is absolutely no other explanation that can be given to this.

About Haroon, our Shia friends can come up and give us hundreds of similitudes between Haroon and Musa and say that Muhammad and Ali were the same in these hundreds of ways. But there is absolutely no way that this can be taken as Ali is Muhammad's succesor after his death, simply because this never happened,a nd even according to Shias, the inheritor of Musa was another person. Would it not be the most obvious of all things, for Allah to keep Haroon alive after Musa, so that the similitude in this case can be seen?

Personally speaking, I believe that the Shia-Sunni discussion should not pick up here, but at a more conceptual level. Let us see what Ali Zaki says about this. If he objects, I will explain the reasons for me taking this position.

Edited by jello

Great love for Jesus Led Me to Islam (http://www.geocities.com/hosseincaraballo)

I appreciate your feedback, however, you have not answered any of my questions.

If you saw that 'mawla' means something else, then what? If you believe that the prophet was masoom (sinless), then he could not declare something that would only be a source of confusion and discord (namely that both the prophet (a.s.) and Imam Ali (a.s.) were concurrent Imams).

As you know, there have been hundreds of Shia books written about this incident, however, I've asked the questions because I'm interested in a different point of view on this incident (since you don't deny it happened). By the way, if 'mawla' does not mean 'imam', how about 'Amir al Mumminin' (which is what Omar and Abu Bakr called Imam Ali (a.s.) after the decleration).

I am happy to discuss things on any level you would like, however, I would like to stick to the topic and not get too far off track as a coutesy to those who are viewing these threads based on the subject title.

If you would like to start a new thread and call it something else, then myself and others can decide if we would like to participate.

Salam.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

With due respect, neither of us are religious scholars (at least I know I am not). In this regard, I would appreciate if you would quote the sources (scholarly sources) of your opinion, as I have done. If we are just going to give our opinions, as the British say, 'higly-piggly', then this discussion will not really go anywhere.

Merely copying and pasting without veryfing the sources will not help either. I advice you to pick up the sources yourself and read the material you are trying to quote in context to be able at least to understand what you are trying to present here.

According to the following Sunni scholarly works;

al-Suyut.i, al-Durr al-Manthur, Vol. II, p. 256

This is what he said:

" Ibn Mardaveh and Ibn Asakir barrated through a WEAK CHAIN from Abu Saeed Al-Khudri the he said: " When the Messenger of Allah (SAW) made Ali stand on the day of Ghadeer and he called for his Wilayah. Jibreel discended upon him with this verse (Today I have completed for you your religion)

and Ibn Maradaveh and Al-Khateeb and Ibn Asakir narrated through a WEAK CHAIN from Abu Huraira that he said: " When it was the day of Ghadeer Khum, which is 18th of Dhul Hijja, the Prophet (SAW) said: " Whoever I am his mawla , then Ali is his mawla" So Allah revealed (Today I have completed for you your religion)""

You would not know that Al-Suyuti declared these narrations, in his Tafseer as weak, if you had not referred to the book yourself. And you would not know that Al-Suyuti related a dozen other narrations stating that this verse was revealed in another occasion.

If time permits, I will Insha'allah translate for my brothers and sisters what Al-Suyuti reported in his Tafseer. Meanwhile I will just post below a reply for a similar claim made by Shia regarding Tafseer of Al-Razi:

You are here for quite a long time, didnt you know what exactly compelled Nabi make this Khutaba ....

Allah compelled Prophet to make this annoucement.

Imām Rāzī comments on the mode of revelation of this verse:

íóÇÃíøõåóÇ ÇáÑøóÓõæúáõ ÈóáøöÛú ãóÂ ÃäúÒöáó Åáóíúßó ãöäú ÑøóÈøößó.

(O (honoured) Messenger! Whatever has been revealed to you from your Lord, convey (it all to the people).

“This verse has been revealed to stress ‘Alī’s excellence, and when the verse was revealed, the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã) caught hold of ‘Alī’s hand and said: One who has me as his master has ‘Alī as his master. O Allāh! Be his friend who befriends him, and be his enemy who is his enemy. (Soon) after this, ‘Umar (ÑÖí Çááå Úäå) met him (‘Alī (ÑÖí Çááå Úäå)) and said: O Ibn Abī Tālib! I congratulate you, now you are my (master) and the master of every male and female believer.

So, It was Allah the almighty who COMPELLED His Beloved Nabi to make this khuttaba.

Wasalam

Subhanallah, the Rafidites have become so notorious for half-quotes that one cannot depend on almost anything they quote from the books of Sunnah.

Actually in the list of 10 causes of revelation mentioned by Razi in his tafseer as sayings of scholars of tafsir, this particular cause is the 10th and last:

"Scholars of Tafsir have mentioned many causes of revelation. The first is that this verse was revealed in the instance of stoning and retaliation as was previously mentioned in the story of the Jews. The Second cause is that it has been revealed because of the Jews' cristicism and making fun of the religion, and the Prophet [s.a.w.w] remained silent about them, thus this verse was revealed. Third: When the verse of choice was revealed, which is “O Prophet! say to thy wives:" (i.e 33:28), the Prophet [s.a.w.w] did not deliver this verse to them out of fear that they may choose this world, and thus it (i.e 5:67) was revealed. Fourth: It was revealed with regards to Zayd and Zaynab Bint Jahsh. Aisha –Radia Allahu Anha- said: Whoever claims that the Messenger of Allah [s.a.w.w] concealed part of what was revealed to him, then he has committed a great lie against Allah, for Allah has said: " O Apostle (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message)" and was the Messenger of Allah –tala- to conceal part of what was revealed to him he would have concealed His saying: "And you hide in your mind that which Allah was to bring to light" [33:37] Fifth: It was revealed with regards to Jihad, for the hypocrites hated it, so he used to withhold from urging them for Jihad. Sixth: When the saying of Allah has been revealed: "Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance." [6:108], the Messenger withheld from reviling their gods, so this verse was revealed, and He said: "Proclaim" i.e the faults / criticism about their gods and do not hide it, and Allah will protect you against them. Seventh: It was revealed with regards to the rights of Muslims , because in the Last Pilgrimage after he has declared the rulings and rituals of Hajj , he said: Have I not declared (it to you)?, they said: yes. He –peace and blessings be upon him – said: O Allah be my witness. Eighth: It has been narrated that he [s.a.w.w] rested under a tree in one of his journeys and hanged his sword on it, when a Bedouin came while he was sleeping and snatched the sword saying: "O Muhammad! Who will protect you against me!" , he said: " Allah" , so the hand of the Bedouin trembled, the sword fell from his hand, and he banged his head against the tree until his brains burst, so Allah revealed this verse and explained that he will protect him against people. Ninth: He used to fear Quraish , the Jews and the Christians, so Allah removed this fear from his heart with this verse. Tenth: This verse has been revealed to stress ‘Alī’s excellence, and when the verse was revealed, the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã) caught hold of ‘Alī’s hand and said: One who has me as his mawla has ‘Alī as his mawla. O Allāh! Be his friend who befriends him, and be his enemy who is his enemy. (Soon) after this, ‘Umar (ÑÖí Çááå Úäå) met him (‘Alī (ÑÖí Çááå Úäå)) and said: O Ibn Abī Tālib! I congratulate you, now you are my mawla and the mawla of every male and female believer. This is the saying of ‘Abdullāh bin ‘Abbās, Barā’ bin ‘Āzib and Muhammad bin ‘Alī (ÑÖí Çááå Úäåã).

You should know that even with these narrations being numerous, it is more fit to explain the verse as Allah –tala- assuring him of protection against the cunning schemes of the Jews and Christans and ordered him to announce the proclamation without having fear of them, this is because the context before this verse and after this verse is addressing the Jews and Christians, it would not be possible to throw verse in the middle making it foreign to what is before it and after it"

This is what Al-Razi mentioned in his tafseer word for word without deletion and in context. As one can see, that Al-Razi did not endorse the 10th cause of revelation as Smart's quote would make us think he did. Of course the context that the verse has been mentioned in the Quran is always ignored by Rafidites when snatching verses from the Quran to prove their doctrines as they did with verse of purification [33:33] and verse of wilaya [5:55]. To appreciate the point Al-Razi has made, I will include the verse before and after this particular verse we are studying:

" And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do. O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people." [5:66-68]

As one can, see this verse has been revealed amidst verses relating to and addressing the Jews and the Christians, so it would not be befitting His Majesty that Allah most High would be vague in His Book and to jump from one point to the other without any prelude or link, that He would be talking about the Jews and Christians and then he would address the proclamation of Ali's Imamate and then he would come back to the Jews and Christians to tell them to follow that which has been revealed about Ali (r.a.a) and that Ali's Imamate would increase inordinancy and unbelief in the Jews and Christians!! Very confusing indeed.

Also, as is well known, the incident of Ghadeer occurred 3 or 4 months before the Prophet's death when all of Arabia has already subdued itself to the Prophet , even the Christians in Najran and Jews in Yemen. What is there for the Prophet to fear from proclamation when his followers have increased a hundred fold!! Rather this verse was revealed at a much earlier stage of the Prophetic era when Islam was still struggling for its survival, surrounded by many enemies.

Furthermore, Al-Razi does not provide any chain of narration to verify and support the view that the incident of Ghadeer was a cause of revelation for this particular verse.

Al-Fadl Ibn Zeyad: I asked Ahmad Ibn Hanbal about Abu Shihab and Ismail Ibn Zakariya. He said: both of them are trustworthy (thiqqa)

Abu Al-Hassan Al-Maymoni reported from Ahmad: As for the famous hadiths he narrates then his hadiths are close (to truth), good. However, the chest is not open for him, he is not known as such , meaning seeking hadith.

Al-Nasai said: I hope that there is no problem with him.

Abu Yahya narrated from Ahmad Ibn Hanbal: he is weak.

Al-Nasai said in Jarh wa Tadeel: he is not strong

Ali Ibn Abis:

Yahya Ibn Maen said: He is nothing. And such said Ibrahim Ibn Yaqub Al-Jozqani, Al-Nasai, and Abu Al-Fath Al_Azdi

Ibn Hibban said: his mistakes were excessive such that he deserved to be deserted.

Al-Daraqutni said: He can be considered (i.e as a support for other narrations)

Al-Amash:

He is Mudalis and this narration he did not explicitly mention that he heard it from his sheikh.

Atiya Al-Awfi:

Al-Bukhari said: "Ali told me: from Yahya: Atiya and Abu Harun and Bishr Ibn Harb are all of the same status to me."

Ahmad said: " He is weak" and " It reached me that Atiya used to come to Al-Kalbi and ask him about Tafseer, and he used to give him the nickname (Kunya) of Abu Saeed, and then he would relate: Abu Saeed said" and " Abu Ahmad Al-Zubairi told me that he heard Al-Kalbi say: Atiya gave me the kunya of Abu Said."

Al-Nasai said:" He is weak"

Ibn Hiban said:" He heard from Abu Saeed hadiths and when he died he used to sit to Al-Kalbi, so if Al-Kalbi said: The Messenger of Allah –sala Allahu Alyhi Wa Salaam- said such and such he would memorize it and he gave him the kunya of Abu Saeed and narrated from him. So if it is said to him: Who narrated this to you? He would say: Abu Saeed narrated this to me. So they (i.e those who inquired) would think that he meant Abu Saeed Al-Khudri, when in reality he meant Al-Kalbi." And "It is not permissible to write his narrations except for being amazed about it." And then he related from Khaled Al-Ahmar that he said: " Al-Kalbi told me: Atiya told me: I have given you the kunya of Abu Saeed so I say: Abu Saeed narrated to us."

Accordingly Abu Saeed in this narration could be Al-Kalbi and not the companion of the Prophet –pbuh- Abu Saeed Al-Khudri.

Abu Saeed: Muhammad Ibn Al_Sae'b Al-Kalbi:

Al-Suyuti said in AL-Itqan regarding the Tafseer of Ibn Abbas – RA -: "And the weakest of its chains is the way of Al-Kalbi from Abu Saleh from Ibn Abbas. And if the narration of Muhammad Ibn Marwan Al-Sadi, the young, is added then this is the chain of lies, and quite often Al-Thalabi and Al-Wahidi narrate through it. Ibn Adi said in Al-Kamel : Al-Kalbi has some good narrations, especially through Abu Saleh, and he is known for Tafseer, and no one has Tafseer longer than his and more thorough than his, and second to him is Muqatil Ibn Sulayman, but Al-Kalbi is preferred over him for the bad beliefs of Muqatil."

Yaqut Al-Hamawi said in Mu'jam Al-Udaba regarding the Tafseer of Al-Tabari: " And he did not make reference to any untrusted Tafseer, for he did not include in his book anything from the book of Muhammad Ibn Al-Sa'eb Al-Kalbi nor Muqatil ibn Sulayman nor Muhammad ibn Umar Al-Waqidi for they are create suspicion(athina') in his view and Allah knows best."

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