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Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Shouldn't the emergence of Frazier factor into this as well? He's not a part of the Reds' plans at all if Francisco isn't dealt, as the portly 3B blocked his path and cast a large shadow on the future of the position.

Were it not for the deal, Frazier likely would have played 3B in Louisville this year.

If, then, the deal itself is part of a larger set of moves (and you can argue that it most certainly was), Hoover and the major league production of Frazier is a clear win for Cincinnati.

Atlanta won as well, as they now have a future 3B (or at least the LH part of a platoon) that looks to be at or near league average production levels very cheaply. Too, Atlanta's pen hasn't been great this season. They could have used Hoover. Because he wasn't there, the Braves chose to use Livan Hernandez, Anthony Varvaro, and Miguel Batista, among others. Some have done very, very well; others (like the ones mentions above), notsomuch. The balance is probably a league average guy-- and Hoover's much more than that this season.

In short, it's a win-win deal in which the Reds won more than the Bravos.

"You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
-- Christy Matthewson
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
-- Leo Durocher

The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Originally Posted by Scrap Irony

Shouldn't the emergence of Frazier factor into this as well? He's not a part of the Reds' plans at all if Francisco isn't dealt, as the portly 3B blocked his path and cast a large shadow on the future of the position.

Were it not for the deal, Frazier likely would have played 3B in Louisville this year.

If, then, the deal itself is part of a larger set of moves (and you can argue that it most certainly was), Hoover and the major league production of Frazier is a clear win for Cincinnati.

Atlanta won as well, as they now have a future 3B (or at least the LH part of a platoon) that looks to be at or near league average production levels very cheaply. Too, Atlanta's pen hasn't been great this season. They could have used Hoover. Because he wasn't there, the Braves chose to use Livan Hernandez, Anthony Varvaro, and Miguel Batista, among others. Some have done very, very well; others (like the ones mentions above), notsomuch. The balance is probably a league average guy-- and Hoover's much more than that this season.

In short, it's a win-win deal in which the Reds won more than the Bravos.

The Frazier situation is interesting. I don't know if the Reds ever had him penciled in as the heir to Rolen at 3b. Prior to this season I think they viewed him more as a utility player than anything else. He may have been viewed as the heir to Cairo

Did the Braves really get something in return with Francisco? I saw the comparison to Phillips but Francisco never was rated as highly as Phillips was. Francisco never had the defensive skills that BP had in the minors. I think the Reds hung onto Francisco for as long as they did for the what if factor. How good would he have been if he put it all together? I think they finally got to the place where it was time to cut bait and let some other organization be teased by Francisco.

As for Hoover he was given a chance earlier this season and hasn't disappointed. Guy has been very good in the pen. I am glad the Reds have Hoover and the Braves have Francisco.

Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I saw the comparison to Phillips but Francisco never was rated as highly as Phillips was.

The comparison to Phillips was made due to their situation, not skill level.
Phillips was (at one time) considered an elite prospect who still brought back peanuts when he was traded when his options expired.

Yep. This can't be overstated.
I thought for a long time that Jocketty was overrated and Krivsky should get most of the credit for this club. Krivsky should still get a lot of credit, but what Jocketty has done in the last three years has been fantastic, especially this past offseason when he brought in Latos, Marshall, Hoover and Ludwick. He has chosen the right guys to keep (Frazier, Cozart, Cueto) and the right guys to trade (Alonso, Francisco, Sappelt, Stewart, Wood, Volquez). Let's just hope the Mesoraco/Grandal choice plays out that way as well.

Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Back to Hoover.

He seems fearless to me. I'd still like to see him get a shot at starting though. We know he can relieve. That's all he's done as a Red. Before becoming a Red, 50% of his time in the Braves organization was spent successfully starting in their farm system. He never had a minor league season with his e.r.a. higher than around 3.50 (off the top of my head).

"I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Trade winner by a knockout: Reds

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

Back to Hoover.

He seems fearless to me. I'd still like to see him get a shot at starting though. We know he can relieve. That's all he's done as a Red. Before becoming a Red, 50% of his time in the Braves organization was spent successfully starting in their farm system. He never had a minor league season with his e.r.a. higher than around 3.50 (off the top of my head).

Hoover should start. Chapman should start. Cingrani should start. Leake should start. Arroyo should start. Latos should start. Bailey should start. Cueto should start. I've even heard posters say that Lecure should start. Let everybody start.

Simon and Broxton can hold down the bullpen, with Ondrusek.

But Simon is a former starter. Maybe him too. . . . And didn't Ondrusek begin as a starter. Wait, now.

Re: Reds trade Juan Francisco to Braves for RHP J.J. Hoover

Originally Posted by Benihana

Yep. This can't be overstated.
I thought for a long time that Jocketty was overrated and Krivsky should get most of the credit for this club. Krivsky should still get a lot of credit, but what Jocketty has done in the last three years has been fantastic, especially this past offseason when he brought in Latos, Marshall, Hoover and Ludwick. He has chosen the right guys to keep (Frazier, Cozart, Cueto) and the right guys to trade (Alonso, Francisco, Sappelt, Stewart, Wood, Volquez). Let's just hope the Mesoraco/Grandal choice plays out that way as well.

Todd Frazier is hitting .230 and his OPS is trending down toward .700. I'm a big Cozart fan but some folks think he is a poor hitter, a good field no-hit guy. Travis Wood is having a good year with a poor team.

I think we all need to give these players time to determine how great all these moves were. Many of the guys the Reds traded away have some talent. We'll see how it all works out.

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