Native means more than just what Isa is thinking it means--whatever that is, because I'm not quite sure anymore what point he was trying to make or what's going on in this thread . Now...cookies I can relate to .

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na·tiveadjective \ˈnā-tiv\Definition of NATIVE1: inborn, innate <native talents>2: belonging to a particular place by birth3archaic : closely related4: belonging to or associated with one by birth5: natural, normal6a : grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : localb : living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous7: simple, unaffected8a : constituting the original substance or sourceb : found in nature especially in an unadulterated form <mining native silver>9chiefly Australian : having a usually superficial resemblance to a specified English plant or animal10capitalized : of, relating to, or being a member of an aboriginal people of North or South America : native american

native, indigenous, endemic, aboriginal mean belonging to a locality. native implies birth or origin in a place or region and may suggest compatibility with it <native tribal customs>. indigenous applies to species or races and adds to native the implication of not having been introduced from elsewhere <maize is indigenous to America>. endemic implies being peculiar to a region <edelweiss is endemic in the Alps>. aboriginal implies having no known race preceding in occupancy of the region <the aboriginal peoples of Australia>.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/native

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

God bless,GC

Maybe he's using "martyred" in its original sense of "witnessed"?

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Cyrillic,

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?I do not mean to enter into a debate about this, but I believe it's important that if you or anyone else is to make such a claim about a Catholic saint, then there must be some substantial evidence to back it up.

God bless,GC

Maybe he's using "martyred" in its original sense of "witnessed"?

Perhaps the relics of those whom he unsuccessfully attempted to "witness" his faith?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

"Here again we have proof of the existence of Israel and the Throne of David today, for how can Jesus reign from a Throne and over a people if they no longer exist? Having seen then that the Israel people must still be in existence as a people and nation today, separate and distinct from Jewry, let us now note a few of the many prophetic descriptions of what they were to do and become during their long period of exile. These state very plainly that Israel would:

Be a NATION (Jer. 31:35-37)Be a GREAT nation (Gen. 12:2)Have the word GREAT as part of her name (Gen. 12:2)Be a people regathered in a NEW home (Amos 9:9; 2 Sam. 7:10)Become a NATION and COMPANY OF NATIONS (Gen. 35:11)Be a KINGDOM (2 Sam. 7:12-16)Have as emblems a LION and an UNICORN (Num. 24:8-9)

These and many similar descriptions point unmistakably to Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples. Others may answer to one or two of these descriptions but only Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples answer to them all. A few nations can be called great and a few are kingdoms, but only Britain has “Great” as part of her name. Only in the settlement of Britain by many related tribes have we the regathering of a people in a new home, and only they have become “a nation and a company of nations.” Further, Britain does have the lion and the unicorn as its national emblem.

The Church is the New Israel, that is Church teaching.

You want a physical people to put that label on you might as well join the church of John Hagee and friends.'

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?

Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?

Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

No, they just killed him.

That is why we don't feel sorry for you. Any time you want to just up and kill somebody, be ready to take the consequences.

Did they kill him to show that killing was bad?

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He did not come down off the Cross and kill them.

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?

Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

Are you serious?

Kuncewicz' task was to convert the Orthodox faithful to union. He was supported by the state (he had permission by the king to take over Orthodox churches by force, placing the Orthodox in prison and he was allowed to get help from Sapieha's army) - these are facts. Sapieha complained to him he is to violent and his actions discourage the Orthodox - that's the fact. Some szlachta complained to the king that Kuncewicz was desecrating cemeteries and corpses of the Orthodox people - that's the fact.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?

Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

Are you serious?

Kuncewicz' task was to convert the Orthodox faithful to union. He was supported by the state (he had permission by the king to take over Orthodox churches by force, placing the Orthodox in prison and he was allowed to get help from Sapieha's army) - these are facts. Sapieha complained to him he is to violent and his actions discourage the Orthodox - that's the fact. Some szlachta complained to the king that Kuncewicz was desecrating cemeteries and corpses of the Orthodox people - that's the fact.

People complained. Does not mean it he did what they said. People make things up all the time.

Since you made the statement, what historical evidence or primary source do you have to verify this claim?

Kuncewicz was using Lew Sapieha's troops to pacify those Orthodox believers who opposed the union. Sapieha even wrote to him that his violent activities wouldn't persuade the Orthodox. He was also being accused by some Orthodox szlachta of desecrating the cemeteries and feeding dogs with dug up corpses of the Orthodox faithful.

Anecdotes are not proof.

Rumors are not proof.

Gossip and slander are not proof.

Did they give him a trial? Seek for evidence? Give him time to repent?

Are you serious?

Kuncewicz' task was to convert the Orthodox faithful to union. He was supported by the state (he had permission by the king to take over Orthodox churches by force, placing the Orthodox in prison and he was allowed to get help from Sapieha's army) - these are facts. Sapieha complained to him he is to violent and his actions discourage the Orthodox - that's the fact. Some szlachta complained to the king that Kuncewicz was desecrating cemeteries and corpses of the Orthodox people - that's the fact.

People complained. Does not mean it he did what they said. People make things up all the time.

You really know nothing about the situation. Why would he be put on trial since he was supported by the state, he was allowed to use state forces, and the Orthodox church was illegal then?

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Okay, so that makes it okay to kill him? Orthodox can kill people?

Kill a guy to prove that what he *was accused* of doing was wrong?

No. That proves he was persecuting the Orthodox. It does not justify actions of his murderers.

Quote

Do something worse than what he did?

That would be very hard. He was very skilled in persecutions and repercusions.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

So, it's okay to kill somebody if you heard something really bad that was said about him, and you're Orthodox, and he's Roman Catholic.

Now remind me of why you are better, again?

On second thought, don't, I got the point.

Evidently not.

The Orthodox did not hunt Kuntsivych down.

Kuntsivych was hunting them down, and storming a group of Orthodox gathered to celebrate Divine Liturgy. They fought back, and he who lived by the sword was killed by it (really, an ax).

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I was Roman Catholic for 18 years, but I became Eastern Catholic because I found Eastern theology, spirituality, and liturgy more attractive. I suppose finding something attractive is a rather subjective thing.

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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).

I once nearly killed my maths teacher with my homemade cookies and they weren't even poisoned.

Was your math teacher allergic to gluten by any chance? Or were you just allergic to math?

Oh and just to keep on topic, I have to be honest and say that the Roman Catholic Church that I knew and loved as a young person seems to be gone with the wind, and that it's attractive mainly in literature and memory. The Eastern Catholic church I attend is the brightest spot on the map right now and its light is definitely pointing me Eastward, ever eastward ...

« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 04:19:16 PM by theistgal »

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Oh and just to keep on topic, I have to be honest and say that the Roman Catholic Church that I knew and loved as a young person seems to be gone with the wind, and that it's attractive mainly in literature and memory. The Eastern Catholic church I attend is the brightest spot on the map right now and its light is definitely pointing me Eastward, ever eastward ...

I think this a fair appraisal of the situation. It is hard to say that Rome - and by this I mean the vast majority of Roman Catholic liturgies - is liturgically attractive. Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.

Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.

Their values had not been influenced by Christ and His church? (Christ taught us to love and pray for our enemies, but not kill them)The persecutors' value may have not been influenfed by Christ and His church. How about the others in (Orthodox) Church ?

If everyone did what christ wanted, we wouldn't have a church that ruins everyone's lives today. We would have a family instead, that accepts us for what we are not what we could/should be.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I was a Protestant Christian for the first 18 years of my life. I was baptized by a United Methodist minister when I was only 2 hours old, and had experience with various denominations throughout my childhood in addition to being an active member of the United Methodist Church for the first part of my life. I would say what initially drew me to "the RCC" was my becoming disillusioned with Protestant Christianity. It is frustrating when you have multiple denominations fervently claiming to be upholding the beliefs and teachings of the Early Church and backing it up with Scripture...yet all of them teaching vastly different things. My frustration with Protestantism coincided with our cable television service adding EWTN, and me being able to see Catholicism in action for the first time in my life, and not through the bias of a Protestant lens. Is our Church perfect? Of course not. No religion that is made up of sinful human beings is. Is it better and more spiritually nourishing than what I was exposed to in the Protestant world? Definitely.

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).

I once nearly killed my maths teacher with my homemade cookies and they weren't even poisoned.

Was your math teacher allergic to gluten by any chance? Or were you just allergic to math?

Oh and just to keep on topic, I have to be honest and say that the Roman Catholic Church that I knew and loved as a young person seems to be gone with the wind, and that it's attractive mainly in literature and memory. The Eastern Catholic church I attend is the brightest spot on the map right now and its light is definitely pointing me Eastward, ever eastward ...

Does your parish use the new divine liturgy? Moving "Eastward" is like parishes in Stamford Eparchy in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church...... Julian Calender, full liturgies.... Like St. Elias Brampton, ON of youtube fame. I live in Greek Catholic central for the USA..

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

I don't know...I don't feel the need to. My only point was that pointing to a video on YouTube as "proof" that our Church and liturgy is a joke is stupid. There are many parishes that celebrate Mass reverently, including my own. Unfortunately, I don't have a video recording of Mass at my own parish.

As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

I don't know...I don't feel the need to. My only point was that pointing to a video on YouTube as "proof" that our Church and liturgy is a joke is stupid. There are many parishes that celebrate Mass reverently, including my own. Unfortunately, I don't have a video recording of Mass at my own parish.

doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.

What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium. The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video. Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Just do a search of videos on Youtube for examples of comparisons between Catholic and Orthodox liturgy and you will see how deeply rooted the liturgical problems are at the present time in the Roman Church.

Sadly the liturgy depicted in the video posted by Griego is more common than the one you posted. In the Latin diocese in my area there are clown masses and other strange things done during the liturgy. Alas, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is just that, extraordinary, that is, it is rarely celebrated in most parishes in the Latin Church.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:27:08 PM by Apotheoun »

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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

doesn't matter, given the weight you give to your "magisterium," on full display in Los Angeles.

What happened in that video has nothing to do with the Magisterium. The Magisterium does not nor has it ever sanctioned what was in that video. Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Part of the problem with the liturgy in the Roman Church is that the "magisterium" through its enactments has replaced Tradition. Things are no longer done during the liturgy simply because of time immemorial custom; instead, they are to be done because the GIRM says so. Although, as is clear from the Masses I have attended in the Oakland Diocese, along with Masses I have been forced to endure in other states over the course of the last ten years, the GIRM itself is often ignored.

What is the cause of all of this anarchy? As I said above, I attribute this situation to a loss of the sense of Tradition within the Roman Church, which was brought about by the radical liturgical reforms of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Is it any wonder that Catholics (laity and clergy alike) have become theologically confused when time immemorial liturgical practices were simply discarded in a matter of a few years and things that had appeared sacrosanct were suddenly held to be of no importance?

A crisis was inevitable.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:35:11 PM by Apotheoun »

Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

Sadly the liturgy depicted in the video posted by Griego is more common than the one you posted. In the Latin diocese in my area there are clown masses and other strange things done during the liturgy. Alas, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is just that, extraordinary, that is, it is rarely celebrated in most parishes in the Latin Church.

If they're being done in your diocese at parish churches, on a regular basis every Sunday, you ought to notify the bishop, who may not be aware of it. "Clown" is definitely NOT one of the 21 approved rites!!

I haven't seen one myself since the late '70's, then it was at a university youth group Mass, full of all sorts of other abuses which I knew even then weren't approved by the Church - which was what made it so exciting, back then when I was a teenager and thought rebellion against my elders was cool.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:39:02 PM by theistgal »

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Sadly the liturgy depicted in the video posted by Griego is more common than the one you posted. In the Latin diocese in my area there are clown masses and other strange things done during the liturgy. Alas, the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is just that, extraordinary, that is, it is rarely celebrated in most parishes in the Latin Church.

If they're being done in your diocese at parish churches, on a regular basis every Sunday, you ought to notify the bishop, who may not be aware of it. "Clown" is definitely NOT one of the 21 approved rites!!

I haven't seen one myself since the late '70's, then it was at a university youth group Mass, full of all sorts of other abuses which I knew even then weren't approved by the Church - which was what made it so exciting, back then when I was a teenager and thought rebellion against my elders was cool.

I am sure that the Latin bishop already knows, and I gave up fighting for things in the Roman Church when I became Eastern Catholic. To be honest, it had been a fruitless battle anyway during the Bishop Cummins years, which I called "the Babylonian Captivity of the Diocese of Oakland." I realized it was a losing battle when the Diocese adopted its strategic plan entitled "Faith in Service to the World," which spoke about the implementation of "new liturgical rites" that could be celebrated by lay people without the need of priests, and which encouraged acceptance of "different kinds of families." [1] The strategic plan endorsed the so-called "Inclusive Church" model, which was to be followed in all things, and moral judgments about behaviors contrary to the true good of the human person appeared to be anathema, or to put that into plain English, morality was a thing of the past, especially on sexual issues. I am happy that I am no longer a member of the Diocese of Oakland, and other than attending Latin parishes on occasion, that is, when I cannot attend a Byzantine liturgy, I have little to do with the official Roman Church in the East Bay Area.

Notes:

[1] In the Spanish language edition of the strategic plan the English language phrase "different kinds of families" was more clearly defined as "diferentes clases de familias, incluyendo a los homosexuales y lesbianas." Faith in Service to the World, Spanish Edition, page 31.

Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

I know you are not EO, but I can't see what I you cannot comment.

YIM?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth