No one has ever built a fortune all on their own. Total delusion. Only if a person was spawned on a barren planet and single handedly crafted a
civilization out of dirt could they claim this. Never happened. What we have was built on the backs of millions of humans long dead. We all live in
an interdependent web of those around us. Matter of fact, economic models depends on it. The whole concept of wealth as we understand it, requires it.

If you happen to be lucky enough to be born at the right time and right place - with your particular talents deemed valuable to everyone- AND
some hard work and luck, then you stand a chance of being wealthy. Hard work and smarts are part of equation but they cannot stand on their own.

edit on 17-10-2012 by ABNARTY because: sp/gr

That`s truth. Knowing many rich people I can assure you that none of them became rich without luck

Being in the right place at the right time, or having very good contacts is essential.

What is more important to people? To be American and believe in the Bill of Rights and the US as a place of opportunity for work? or for the promise
of capitalist gain? My thinking is we are not honest with ourselves. If it's all about money then screw patriotism, being American, and being
Christian, and just honestly say, it's all about the money, a billion dollar house bought with Chinese labor and production that Americans will never
be able to complete against until we working class work 15 hour days for 10 dollars. Embrace it (and if Romney creates tariffs on Chinese goods like
he stated yesterday, that will happen, and only the wealthy will be able to afford a TV set.) If we are supposed to be a Christian nation.... well...
I ME ME MINE.. enough said. I apologize for the rant, but I used to work 3 jobs and walk though two miles of snow in Flagstaff Arizona to work in an
IHOP kitchen from 10pm till 7am... And two more part time jobs after that. I've seen working class people bust their ass like some wealthy wouldn't
believe. You want what's yours? Fine ... But don't respect people who work in backbreaking labor day to day getting grease burns, overworked,
underpaid and call them lazy and entitled. A business man who is smart deserves some more bread sure, but not 10,000 times more! Especially if they
are not breaking their backs day by day. I have friends that are rich and friends that are poor. My rich friends have no problem stating, it takes
money to make money. Your daddy is rich and you have 10,000 to invest, great.. bust some cat born in a trailer who goes to a bottom of the barrel
school in Mississippi, they can work their butt off and not have enough money to invest to get riches.

Originally posted by AudioOne My rich friends have no problem stating, it takes money to make money. Your daddy is rich and you have
10,000 to invest, great.. bust some cat born in a trailer who goes to a bottom of the barrel school in Mississippi, they can work their butt off and
not have enough money to invest to get riches.

I think that`s the biggest issue. In the past it were much easier too start a successful business from zero.

If the wealthy don't create jobs, I'm guessing that the answer would be government, yes?

Did you forget about small business owners? They are usually not wealthy yet employ many.

The government also does create some jobs, like working at the post office. This is designated in the constitution, along with judges, legislators, on
and on.

Also, without customers or the workers... the rich or small business owners would be nothing. The owners ablity to hire new people is solely based on
the consumer. Everyone is just as important in capitalism, you cannot have one without the other. The relationship is interdependent.

Absolutely! Are you mentally all there? It is not stealing from them it is getting back what was stolen. It is hitting the reset button. You say
"work hard and you can get there too"? BS. Bring everything back to equal and see who "earns" their riches. You say people "earned" the money
they made? When they inherit trust funds they earned nothing. When they are a giant corporation that has been around for a century the current CEOs
did not get the company to that position. If you want to talk about banks, they are just crooks plain and simple. Fractional reserve banking,
Federal Reserve, Income tax, etc. tax loopholes for corporations and wealthy. I am not defending the people taking advantage of the system I am
defending people who bust their butt and work over 50 hours a week and are still living paycheck to paycheck doing the SAME jobs previous generations
were doing but were making enough money to have a single income in the family and still be able to afford vacations, houses, cars, etc. What do you
have to say to that?

Originally posted by beezzer
Why do people feel entitled to anything they didn't earn?

Many "wealthy" people started out working long hours with great risk to their financial security for years.

If the wealthy don't create jobs, I'm guessing that the answer would be government, yes?

If that's the case, then embrace big government. I, for one, will be working to make government accountable AND SMALLER.

Personal responsibility. Embrace it.

I know!!! Mitt Romney just stands there doing nothing and gets taxed less than someone who is busting rock and building something. He didn't earn
that!! Breathing in and breathing out, he feels entitled to breaks the rest of us don't get. The guy busting rocks is the one actually contributing
to the country and yet he pays larger percent of earnings than the measly 14% Mitt Romney gets away with. I am sick of these parasites sucking off
the sweat and blood of the workers. And you can tell Romney feels entitled to the extra money he gets back. I actually heard him in an interview
saying that him, with his big fat tax break, getting money back he isn't really entitled to (because he just scams the system, makes a fool out of the
worker, and takes advantage of loopholes without actually contributing anything) is the way capitalism works best!

I am endlessly amazed by middle class republican's admiration of Reagan. People are always talking about how he turned the economy around, etc.
Truth be told, he borrowed the country into a false sense of prosperity, in doing so he ultimately started what has become a death spiral. He was the
first to really pull demand forward and the country has been paying the debt ever since.

Reagan took office January, 1981, the debt had been in steady decline since the end of WWII but then it began to escalate.

A good portion of this debt was borrowed from private investors who benefit by collecting the interest. Income on which they pay a nominal tax rate
while those of us who "earn" our wages are taxed at 2 to 3 times the rate. I talk to die-hard republican's on a daily basis that have not a dime
in savings that will defend the reduced interest rate tax to the death.

Years ago I too thought that the large corporations were working themselves out of a customer base by outsourcing jobs. It took a while for me to
realize that they weren't... they've been busy growing a newer, larger customer base in the various countries they outsource to. As consumers, we
in the US will never touch China or India.

I personally like the idea of tariffs as a means to somewhat even the playing field since we can't effectively compete against a country where there
are no environmental protections in place and no labor laws. The flip side, it is true that the middle class consumer will be priced out on a good
many items we take for granted. Interestingly enough, in the early days of the US, before they managed to sneak income tax in as an emergency tax to
pay for war, almost the entirety of the Federal Government's income was derived from tariffs.

Sounds contradictory but, I think they should raise the corporate tax rate. Everyone talks about how high the US rate already is but corporate taxes
comprise less than 12% of all receipts.

There are so many expenses and loopholes, very few businesses actually post taxable income. Ask G.E., numerous returns ZERO income tax... google
it.

You would simultaneously have to impose some kind of penalty for outsourcing.

What I think would happen is those companies really interested in doing business in the US would actually spend more on employees and capital
expenditures since it would ultimately help them reduce their tax liability. Obviously both would benefit jobs here at home the first directly, the
second by generating employment in construction and manufacturing as companies upgraded their facilities and equipment.

Originally posted by Mijamija
Sadly, the guy who works the hardest, often dies the poorest, but the guy who works the smartest gets ahead.

Not only smartest, to get on top it really helps to be vicious, greedy, backstabbing, suck up to the right people and other things that go against
mine and many others values.

You don't absolutely need those qualities to be millionaire but you do need most of them to be a billionaire.
We all make our owns goals and rules of life, so I'm not here to play the billionaire.

I just find that it shouldn't be that hard to ask for at least a little social responsibility from corporations. Right now, their game is to the
detriment of the majority and its time we start a new game with new rules, but that could be just my opinion.

Like I said.....I can't stand it. But I am trying not to further derail the op which is about trickle down economic policies, so I will say this to
get back on topic.

Trickle down only works when companies take their profits and invest wisely, by opening up new stores, new factories, innovating their products,
branching out and creating new products, employing new workers for the new stores.

If companies do not do these things, and instead squander the money on bad investments, stick the funds in off shore banks, or give their CEOs lavish
bonuses, then trickle down doesn't work.

Some companies have become over ran by greed and poor business decisions, and we all suffer from it.

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