Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
CIA essentially puts Saddam hussein into power www.google.com...
US arms Hussein en.wikipedia.org...
Hussein goes to war with Iran in 1980: 875,000+ dead

Well, if you want to put it that way then the U.S. is nothing more than an extension of the British, who in turn were established and brought together
by the Romans. Imperialist for sure but Ceaser is to blame for this whole mess. That is if "guilty by association" is allowed when citing death
tolls.

I've seen characters like Newt Gingrich refer to the US as the "New Rome". I really need to start archiving those.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Lets see how many people the Germans have killed. How bout the Chinese, russian? See I can do the same.

Did they do it in your name?

As I've already stated, we're all used to seeing the numbers of the other guys, but never ours. We've been trained (our entire lives) to ignore our
evils while highlighting others. It's called hypocrisy and it's like the official implicit national m.o.. By implicit I mean a norm
that is true but goes without saying; it doesn't even need to be said for it to be learned; people usually don't even realize they learned it
(perhaps because it goes without saying).

US Leaders are guilty by association if they armed, equipped, trained, and funded those regimes with the express purpose of destablizing a region,
stopping a revolution, and protecting the client-state apparatus. If their purpose was to protect the gobal capital accumulation system with total
disregard to the human cost, they are guilty.

Ive noticed alot of people attack IIB's numbers and stats, but not attack the fact that US foreign policy and US leaders have been using
imperialistic tactitics throughout the world.

Thanks to IgnoranceIsntBliss for the initial posting, and the patience to deal with contributors that aren't ready to face up to the truth about the
US's 'foreign policy' over the last however many years.

I live in the UK, and we have a similar 'history denial' situation over here. When I was at school we learnt NOTHING at all about colonialisation
(not to mention 'The British Empire's leading/key role in it!).

The school 'history books' are very happy (i.e. written by the 'right' people), as said in a previous post to focus on 'how heinous Pol Pot
was...' etc, but never prepared to mention Britain's own atrocities.

Personally, I don't feel it matters if the deaths figure is 5 million too little or too much or whatever - it's just the ORDER of the figure that
should be a wake-up call - as if another one should be needed?!

But then again, as some posts in this thread show, the 'education system' and mainstream media in the UK and the US (and in the West in general) are
designed to ensure the indoctrination of these attitudes of Nationalism/Superiority etc - and it has worked on millions of people across many
countries.

Check out Noam Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent' for a superb breakdown of the mainstream's media coverage/attitudes around the East Timor
genocide if you need 'concrete' proof via an excellent tangible example....

Just a quick note about the 'responsibility' thing:

I do not feel personally responsible for the actions of the British Empire - of course not! BUT.... I do feel compelled to take responsibility for
gaining a true awareness of what this country has done in the past, and continues to do, and to absorb this into my everyday life - my attitudes,
behaviour, what I speak about with others etc. The 'It wasn't me' attitude is, IMO, often used as a cop-out to avoid taking on this
responsibility.

Originally posted by awake
But then again, as some posts in this thread show, the 'education system' and mainstream media in the UK and the US (and in the West in general) are
designed to ensure the indoctrination of these attitudes of Nationalism/Superiority etc - and it has worked on millions of people across many
countries.

In my "First Truth" writeup I pointed out that "our" entire concept of
"civilization" is that of empires. All of our examples of civilizations that we're taught in school are "Western" empires. This concept gave me
the feeling that I finally understood what the whole "Western" thing we always hear about actually is. This would apply to most european countries
as well, as most were former empires.

I asked a friend from Nepal if this was the case, after explaining my view to him real well, and showed him school books that highlight all the old
empires as the only examples of civilizations. He was unable to disagree.

Check out Noam Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent' for a superb breakdown of the mainstream's media coverage/attitudes around the East Timor
genocide if you need 'concrete' proof via an excellent tangible example....

In regards to WWII, maybe the US was late to the game (the populance did not wna tot wnter the war) but if it wasn't for the manufacturing
capabilities and material support (as well as bodies) Europe would of stayed conquered and Britian would have fallen. German was developing the V-2
rocket and an atom bomb (where do you think the US got this knowledge)....which would of most likely of been used on England and anyone who didn't
capitulate.

The rest of this thread is a joke and reflects just how much the education system has failed in the US and abroad.

Of course since GOD created the Universe (and man) I guess he is to blame.......if he didn't create us.....we wouldn't kill each other.

Originally posted by jsobecky
So, IgnoranceIsntBlisss, what are you doing to stop American imperialism?

Everything I can think of. Got any ideas?

In other words, you're doing nothing except to post an inflammatory, misleading statement here, and then pretend that by doing so, you're somehow
changing the world for the better.

If you were truly interested in lowering the numbers of people killed world-wide, you would present our involvement only in relation to the
involvement of the rest of the world. And you wouldn't arbitrarily limit deaths to those committed in the name of imperialism; you'd include
genocide and other causes. By all countries, not just the US.

The "doing it in your name" argument doesn't wash, either.

But you don't, because what you are actually doing is experimenting with the pleasure that being able to make such a statement brings to you. It is
similar to a young person who suddenly realizes that he is allowed to use profanity; he is able to shock some decent people by using it, and that
gives him a thrill.

In this case, you are getting off by bashing the US, and the attention that that brings you.

This post is not intended to insult or belittle you. But until you realize why you feel the need to present an incomplete, misleading argument, you
cannot change anything .

I'm shocked that you would not include America's so called genocide against Japanese, Italians and Germans, as well as the Korean War related to so
called "Empire Wars" as you call it. Why exclude them?

In other words, you're doing nothing except to post an inflammatory, misleading statement here, and then pretend that by doing so, you're somehow
changing the world for the better.

He is just woried, he is worried about his own country rulers doing bad stuff, what do you got against that?

If you were truly interested in lowering the numbers of people killed world-wide, you would present our involvement only in relation to the
involvement of the rest of the world. And you wouldn't arbitrarily limit deaths to those committed in the name of imperialism; you'd include
genocide and other causes. By all countries, not just the US.

Does this excuse it all? so what if other countrys have done it, this does not mean that his country has to do it.
Ohh so every thing is normal because others have done it? not just the US, it's normality?

In this case, you are getting off by bashing the US, and the attention that that brings you.

Do you really think he hates his country, his an american just like you, why does it bother you that his posting what he feels.

This post is not intended to insult or belittle you. But until you realize why you feel the need to present an incomplete, misleading argument, you
cannot change anything .

Incomplete because others have done it, so it's really not a big thing right?

This is so bad. This entire thread has done nothing, but once again pit two people's opinions against one anothers.

Ignorance you missed my point where I understand yours. In fine, I really do understand what you're trying to show to us and that is admirable what
your point is. I know that you mean to point out the evils that exist in the American government and that you love your country and want to see all
evil end in it as quickly and efficiently as possible.

You're going about it all wrong.

1)Not a single person in this forum is going to do anything directly to stop the wrong-doing
2)Not a single person in this forum has that power
3)Your best bet is to trust numbers and rally support or get your fingers on some power

The truth of the matter is that not a single country in this world is without corruption and the most patriotic thing any one citizen of those
countries can do is stand up and say "no".

I don't know what your actions are to fight this, but I can tell you what my actions are, I plan on enlisting the military and engaging a life-long
military career. Becoming an officer, I hope to eventually gain enough influence to change small-time military politic and maybe in the future others
will follow in suit.

True revolutions are defined by the changes that occur, rebellions are defined by the spilled blood of the patriots.

I still stand by this quote: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing."

Does this excuse it all? so what if other countrys have done it, this does not mean that his country has to do it.
Ohh so every thing is normal because others have done it? not just the US, it's normality?

What he is doing is trying to paint the US as the cause of all that is wrong with the world. By not including everyone else that does it, it makes it
look like we're the only ones who do it.

It's a very similar mindset to those who refuse to accept a message because of who the messenger is.

1)Not a single person in this forum is going to do anything directly to stop the wrong-doing
2)Not a single person in this forum has that power
3)Your best bet is to trust numbers and rally support or get your fingers on some power

The power is in the people. Not some military officer, it needs to start by people talking about it. A grass-roots movement is what we need and if
everyone that has read this thread talk to friends, neighbors and relatives we can do something. A LOT more than one person in the military!

6 degrees of separation, talk about it and it can spread at an exponential rate. It ALWAYS starts as a grassroots movement and HARDLY ever starts by
some officer in the military. The common man holds the power as long as he is informed.

1)Not a single person in this forum is going to do anything directly to stop the wrong-doing
2)Not a single person in this forum has that power
3)Your best bet is to trust numbers and rally support or get your fingers on some power

Well it's the freedom of speach, to do things is corssing the boundry of your freedoms as you put them in danger, and I'm not talking about picking
up a gun, just things like peaceful meetings, or trying it to get this out to a main streem media that will do a covrege of more then 5 minutes.
Freedom is limited to the power of speaking to one to another as long as we don't cross that line, if we try to change someting and not by violet
ways our freedoms become questionable and not guarantied.
They don't care as long as we keep it a chit chat here on ATS, try to do something and you may find out that you are on the phone tapping list, they
may even pay you a visit.

So you see, our freedoms are guarantied to a point, so what is the point of doing something, it's not like no one wants to do something, it's
fear.

The truth of the matter is that not a single country in this world is without corruption and the most patriotic thing any one citizen of those
countries can do is stand up and say "no".

You are corect on this, but remember the biger the country is the more corpution rules in it, the more power you have the more corupted you become.

I don't know what your actions are to fight this, but I can tell you what my actions are, I plan on enlisting the military and engaging a life-long
military career. Becoming an officer, I hope to eventually gain enough influence to change small-time military politic and maybe in the future others
will follow in suit.

Do your self a favor , learn somethig make a career buid a family, there are alot of things that you can do besides picking up a gun and shooting
it.
The military should not be involved in politics, that happens in china, north corea and other parts of the world, politics should be limited to
civilians.

I disagree whole-heartily. Civilians should not have political power because usually the involves in the use of the military in some form or another.
Someone who has never fought in a war should never have control of soldiers. That is what's todays problem.

I'm doing my bit by influencing as many people as I possible can directly, the people in power.

At least I will be attempting. I don't look forward to creating a family any time soon.

What he is doing is trying to paint the US as the cause of all that is wrong with the world. By not including everyone else that does it, it makes it
look like we're the only ones who do it.

Well, others are others and united states is united states, people had other expectations from united states, in your quoting you try describing that
united states is just a country like the others in your efforts to defend your country.
But what happened to"we are the greatest" you use modesty to deffend america but only when you need to?
Really because you guys promoted united states so much people had other espectations from you, and when things show up as they show up people are
indignated because they thought united states never did those kind of things, they thought that from this planet united states was the special one
that deffended freedom and morality with out wrong doings.
The problem is "we don't do this" but they did, others said, we don't care so no expectations from them.

Does this excuse it all? so what if other countrys have done it, this does not mean that his country has to do it.
Ohh so every thing is normal because others have done it? not just the US, it's normality?

What he is doing is trying to paint the US as the cause of all that is wrong with the world. By not including everyone else that does it, it makes it
look like we're the only ones who do it.

It's a very similar mindset to those who refuse to accept a message because of who the messenger is.

I dont think so at all. All i see him doing is trying to open a discussion into US imperialism and foreign policy in general.

Its obvious to everyone that the US isnt to blame for EVERY problem, but US leaders and policy are certainly to blame for the imperialistic tactics
used in the many wars/conflicts of attrition that have been wage by or for "US interests"

Just because you look at the negative side of a country, does not mean there isnt a positive. looking at one consistently more often than the other
only hurts you and allows negative policies to thrive.

The costs of US global hegemony are paid for by the average citizen (taxes and the loss of lives and jobs) while the benefits are reaped by the
private corporation and its trustee's.

I don't know what your actions are to fight this, but I can tell you what my actions are, I plan on enlisting the military and engaging a life-long
military career. Becoming an officer, I hope to eventually gain enough influence to change small-time military politic and maybe in the future others
will follow in suit.

A quick question, how would you, being an officer of the US military, influence decisions of foreign policy and US intervention? I could see you
influencing the plan of attack (for lack of better words) but the actual decisions of which country will bear the brunt of US intervention forces, i
cant see you having much influence.

I think its noble that your doing what you believe to be the best course of action, but i just dont know how you would impact people that have their
class perogitives as the main motivating factor in their daily actions and decissions.

First of all many of the OP's deaths become kinda indirect, not saying we had no part to play, but your large red letters make it seem as though
Americans are the only people to have ever done such a thing. What about hitler, The spanish wiped out atleast 3 major civilizations. You have
russians and there stalin. The mongols killed those the found no use for. The romans crucified people. You have the Spanish inquisition. YOu have the
christian witch trials. The crusades. COuntless African genocides. The armenian genocide. Bloody Mary in england. Medieval beheadings. The french
revolution beheadings. COunt Dracula ( forgot his real name) but he existed, and is known for impaling people on stakes, including emmissaries from
other cities for not taking off their hats. The Japenses killed something liek 10000 christians. Youve got the IRA and all terrorist orgainzations for
that matter. Youve got the kiling of Kurds, chemicals NOT supplied by America, The chinese genocide in Tibet.

I think we all go the point a while ago. I mean the last goes on forever and who knows how we dont know about or dont have statistics for, i mean a
doubt we have a head count for beheadings in medieval Europe. My point being that point out this group or that group for being especially mean unless
their beliefs specifically state that is utteerly ignorant. The only group you can point a finger at is...

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