About Bégon, comte de Paris, marquis de Septimanie

Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but only one set of descendents (Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna):

Either his wife (and mother of these 3 kids) was Charlemagne’s daughter:

1) Alpaida (by Adaltrude) Sources below, or

2) Amaudra (by Himiltrude) - less convincingly sourced than the other two, at the moment -Reference to her mother on Die Genealogie der Franken und Frankreichs, noted by Wikipedia, says she later married a Count of Paris.

m firstly ---. There is no proof of this possible first marriage of Bego. However, as noted below, if his wife Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, there would have been a considerable age difference between her and Bego, which suggests the possibility of an earlier marriage.]

m [secondly] ([806]) ALPAIS, illegitimate daughter of [Emperor LOUIS I & his mistress ---] ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]). Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[67]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[68]. Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[69]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816.

[Sharon’s Note: Not really – it makes her 23yrs old when he dies. Charlemagne’s wife Hildegard had had 9 children by the time she died at 23 or 24yrs]

However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the ages of these children when their father died. The question of her paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the probable daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of his estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852.

STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin, Pam, Ben, Sharon Jan 2011 The 10th Century chronicler, Flodoard is a primary source, while both Cawley and Settipani are secondary sources - presenting conflicting conclusions. Settipani (arguing for Charlemagne's daughter), contradicts Flodoard (arguing for Louis' daughter), based on consideration of other primary sources (which we haven't found). Cawley appears to be most likely to dominate because, although Settipani's conclusions are possibly more accurate, Cawley is more available to Geni users on the net.

Sharon's STRATEGIC SOLUTION WAS TO INSERT BEGUE in ALL 3 POSITIONS, & TRY TO USE THE CURATOR NOTE TO AVOID MERGES BETWEEN THEM.

STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin, Sharon; George June 2012: Over the past year, despite being locked, the profiles have been merged into each other - suggesting this was not a workable strategy. George IS WORKING ON AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY:

--------------------------------

Wikipedia:

Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

--------------------

Begue was Chamberlain of Louis of Aquitaine in 776. He is also known as Bego II.

References: [RFC],[AR7]

--------------------

Beggan (Bego) Count of Paris1,2

b. between 755 and 760, d. 28 October 816, #29459

Father Girard Count of Paris3 b. before 745, d. circa 755

Mother Rotrude of Austrasia3 b. circa 734

Family 1 Williburga d. before 789

Child 1. Engeltrude or Engeltron+ b. c 78212

Family 2 Alpais b. circa 790, d. 29 May 852

Children 1. Count Eberhard of Paris+ b. c 800, d. b 83217

2. Susanna+ b. b 81618

3. Landrée de Paris+ b. c 8164

Children of this marriage are often given as: Eberhard, Leuthard, Engeltron (F) and Suzanna.

The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that

Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious).

--------------------

Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Beggo of Paris) Jump to: navigation, search Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

Leuthard II, who later ruled Paris

Eberhard

Landrade

Susanna

Engeltrude

--------------------

-------------------- Count Begue de Paris [Parents] was born about 760 in Paris, Île-de-France, France. He died in 816. He married Aupais Caroling about 777 in Paris, Île-de-France, France.

[Notes] Aupais Caroling [Parents] was born about 760 in Paris, Île-de-France, France. She married Count Begue de Paris about 777 in Paris, Île-de-France, France.

Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but only one set of descendents (Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna):

Either his wife (and mother of these 3 kids) was Charlemagne’s daughter:

1) Alpaida (by Adaltrude) Sources below, or

2) Amaudra (by Himiltrude) - less convincingly sourced than the other two, at the moment -Reference to her mother on Die Genealogie der Franken und Frankreichs, noted by Wikipedia, says she later married a Count of Paris.

or she was Charlemagne’s granddaughter:

3) Alpais (through his son, Louis I) Sources Below

Sources: From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands database

BEGO ([755/60]-28 Oct 816).

m firstly ---. There is no proof of this possible first marriage of Bego. However, as noted below, if his wife Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, there would have been a considerable age difference between her and Bego, which suggests the possibility of an earlier marriage.]

m [secondly] ([806]) ALPAIS, illegitimate daughter of [Emperor LOUIS I & his mistress ---] ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]). Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[67]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[68]. Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[69]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816.

[Sharon’s Note: Not really – it makes her 23yrs old when he dies. Charlemagne’s wife Hildegard had had 9 children by the time she died at 23 or 24yrs]

However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the ages of these children when their father died. The question of her paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the probable daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of his estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852.

STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin, Pam, Ben, Sharon Jan 2011 The 10th Century chronicler, Flodoard is a primary source, while both Cawley and Settipani are secondary sources - presenting conflicting conclusions. Settipani (arguing for Charlemagne's daughter), contradicts Flodoard (arguing for Louis' daughter), based on consideration of other primary sources (which we haven't found). Cawley appears to be most likely to dominate because, although Settipani's conclusions are possibly more accurate, Cawley is more available to Geni users on the net.

Sharon's STRATEGIC SOLUTION WAS TO INSERT BEGUE in ALL 3 POSITIONS, & TRY TO USE THE CURATOR NOTE TO AVOID MERGES BETWEEN THEM.

STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin, Sharon; George June 2012: Over the past year, despite being locked, the profiles have been merged into each other - suggesting this was not a workable strategy. George IS WORKING ON AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY:

--------------------------------

Wikipedia:

Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

Begue was Chamberlain of Louis of Aquitaine in 776. He is also known as Bego II.

References: [RFC],[AR7]

--------------------

Beggan (Bego) Count of Paris1,2

b. between 755 and 760, d. 28 October 816, #29459

Father Girard Count of Paris3 b. before 745, d. circa 755

Mother Rotrude of Austrasia3 b. circa 734

Family 1 Williburga d. before 789

Child 1. Engeltrude or Engeltron+ b. c 78212

Family 2 Alpais b. circa 790, d. 29 May 852

Children 1. Count Eberhard of Paris+ b. c 800, d. b 83217

2. Susanna+ b. b 81618 3. Landrée de Paris+ b. c 8164 Children of this marriage are often given as: Eberhard, Leuthard, Engeltron (F) and Suzanna.

The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that

Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious).

--------------------

Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Beggo of Paris) Jump to: navigation, search Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

read more -------------------- The Problem of Count Begue & his 3 possible wives

Discussion

Count Begue/Beggo/ Begon has 2 (or 3) equally likely wives according to original sources – but only one set of descendents (Luithard, Eberhard, Susanna):

Either his wife (and mother of these 3 kids) was Charlemagne’s daughter:

1) Alpaida (by Adaltrude) Sources below, or

2) Amaudra (by Himiltrude) - less convincingly sourced than the other two, at the moment -Reference to her mother on Die Genealogie der Franken und Frankreichs, noted by Wikipedia, says she later married a Count of Paris.

or she was Charlemagne’s granddaughter:

3) Alpais (through his son, Louis I) Sources Below

Sources: From Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands database

BEGO ([755/60]-28 Oct 816).

m firstly ---. There is no proof of this possible first marriage of Bego. However, as noted below, if his wife Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, there would have been a considerable age difference between her and Bego, which suggests the possibility of an earlier marriage.]

m [secondly] ([806]) ALPAIS, illegitimate daughter of [Emperor LOUIS I & his mistress ---] ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]). Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[67]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[68]. Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[69]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816.

[Sharon’s Note: Not really – it makes her 23yrs old when he dies. Charlemagne’s wife Hildegard had had 9 children by the time she died at 23 or 24yrs]

However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the ages of these children when their father died. The question of her paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the probable daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of his estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852.

STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin, Pam, Ben, Sharon Jan 2011 The 10th Century chronicler, Flodoard is a primary source, while both Cawley and Settipani are secondary sources - presenting conflicting conclusions. Settipani (arguing for Charlemagne's daughter), contradicts Flodoard (arguing for Louis' daughter), based on consideration of other primary sources (which we haven't found). Cawley appears to be most likely to dominate because, although Settipani's conclusions are possibly more accurate, Cawley is more available to Geni users on the net.

Sharon's STRATEGIC SOLUTION WAS TO INSERT BEGUE in ALL 3 POSITIONS, & TRY TO USE THE CURATOR NOTE TO AVOID MERGES BETWEEN THEM.

STATUS OF DEBATE by Justin, Sharon; George June 2012: Over the past year, despite being locked, the profiles have been merged into each other - suggesting this was not a workable strategy. George IS WORKING ON AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY:

--------------------------------

Wikipedia:

Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

Begue was Chamberlain of Louis of Aquitaine in 776. He is also known as Bego II.

References: [RFC],[AR7]

--------------------

Beggan (Bego) Count of Paris1,2

b. between 755 and 760, d. 28 October 816, #29459

Father Girard Count of Paris3 b. before 745, d. circa 755

Mother Rotrude of Austrasia3 b. circa 734

Family 1 Williburga d. before 789

Child 1. Engeltrude or Engeltron+ b. c 78212

Family 2 Alpais b. circa 790, d. 29 May 852

Children 1. Count Eberhard of Paris+ b. c 800, d. b 83217

2. Susanna+ b. b 81618 3. Landrée de Paris+ b. c 8164 Children of this marriage are often given as: Eberhard, Leuthard, Engeltron (F) and Suzanna.

The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that

Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious).

--------------------

Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Beggo of Paris) Jump to: navigation, search Beggo (died 816) was the son of Gerard I of Paris and Rotrude, daughter of Carloman, son of Charles Martel. He was appointed Count of Toulouse, Duke of Septimania, Duke of Aquitaine, and Margrave of the Hispanic March in 806 and followed his father as Count of Paris in 815.

In 806, William of Gellone abdicated and Charlemagne appointed Beggo to take his place in Toulouse and Gothia. He did not succeed his father in Paris, but was later placed in the comital office there, but did not live long after that.

He married either Amaudru, illegitimate daughter of Charlemagne or her niece, Alpais, illegitimate daughter of Louis the Pious. They had three children: