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Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by LetalHawk

Tooyama and Akutsu are above him, like Echizen, Yukimura, Sanada and Tezuka. Atobe, from my point of view, can't get any better, I think he'll never be in another tier. What upgrade can you give to him?

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by Airgrimes

We go by facts on the forum. Your being a comedian if part of your argument is a massive chunk of plot power changing the match.
You havent come here to argue REALLY have you? Your being an intense Atobe fan right now lol.

With the current evidence, Sanada > Atobe confidently. But with plot power where Atobe suddenly learns a new technique then sure, anything can happen.
However this makes EVERY discussion on PoT pointless mean nothing.
We could say, Momoshiro/Kaidoh/Kite/Inui/Kirihara/Oshitari. Y gets a new technique that breaks ALL of Fuji's counters suddenly in the match.

We are all well aware of plot power here. Im disappointed that for your argument for Atobe to win, he will require plot power.

Trust me. I am no comedian. Its not 'plot power'. It is the fact that we have simply not seen Atobe get challenged enough or pushed to the brink of losing.

When Atobe gets wiped to the floor (like Sanada did against Yukimaru) we will see what happens. To put it this way:

Sanada lost 7-1 to Yuki in the U17. Is it implausible that Atobe would have taken him to a tiebreak -- somehow? One of Atobe's techniques and characteristics -- not plot power -- is his knack for clawing his way to match equality. That is a fact that has been demonstrated numerous times. Given this knack, I don't see him losing 7-1 to Yuki.

But I'm willing to concede that Atobe and Sanada are roughly similar since tennis is not transitive. Anyone who asserts that one is better than the other and passes this off as fact is a comedian. Simply put, we cannot discount Atobe (as many have done on the forums) and then claim its axiomatic. In reality we are all speculating.

To summarize; I'll take Atobe's knack for tenacity and unwillingness to lie down (a permanent feature) over Rai or Black Aura (techniques that will near obseletion in a few epochs). This line of thinking may deviate from the way the forum does business, but it is no less factual.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by Fayte

Thank you for saying this before I did. The only reason why Sanada's knees were giving out to begin with, was because of the fact he had to use it an abundance of times because of T-Phantom. Atobe has no way of returning Rai if Tezuka couldn't. People always flock to what Yukimura said after Sanada's match with Atobe to make a case for Atobe being better, and they COMPLETELY FORGET what Yukimura said during the match against Tezuka about himself being the ONLY ONE capable of beating Sanada as he is. That includes Atobe.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by Brandnewkid

It's outright stated that they did.

Regardless, Echizen is always the exception to every rule, so you still do not have a point. Yukimura was still right in saying he is the only one capable of beating Sanada, because Echizen will always beat everyone, so he is always the exception. Saying "Well, Echizen did it so _____ can too" does not exist in the realm of actual arguments.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

I'm still not understanding why everyone's sleeping on Atobe just because he's not Rikkai or Yukimura or Echizen or whatever. Do you realize how good of a tennis player Atobe is? Genius be damned, this is the guy who used Muga without using Muga. He's the King of Tennis for a reason.

I'm not saying he's stronger than Sanada, but for him to beat Sanada wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Game done.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

I don't think anybody is saying that Atobe sucks, it's more like that he doesn't appear to be quite on the same level as the top of the top.

Originally Posted by -Ken-

Stamina is one thing, but leg injury looked like me like another matter entirely. His leg is injured, from his own techniques, not by any accident. He might be able to handle more pain, though, due to his mountain training. But how much can someone improve in that, really? Assuming that it's by 50%, rate pretty much impossible for human being, that's 31*1.5=46.5, so let's say 47. That's 5 game into set 2. And the rest will be cakewalk for player of Atobe level.

He'll need Black Aura to beat Atobe.

Niou went from one use of TPhantom to 48 with an additional 7 ZSS thrown in. If they improved at roughly the same rate, Sanada's legs shouldn't give out halfway through the second set. By all means, add BA though.

You are right that we should probably evaluate matches on a three set basis from now on though.

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

Trust me. I am no comedian. Its not 'plot power'. It is the fact that we have simply not seen Atobe get challenged enough or pushed to the brink of losing.

Against Irie he got pushed which resulted in him getting AK (and GIGUE, whatever it does). When Sanada got pushed it resulted in him getting BA.

@The rest
While you can say that Atobe could get a new technique during the match, what's stopping me from saying that Sanada wouldn't get a new one as well, making the gap effectively the same again or possibly even widening it?
When you argue about the outcome of a match and want to take improvements into account, you might as well save yourself the time and effort since that argument can always apply to both sides.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by Kaoz

Against Irie he got pushed which resulted in him getting AK (and GIGUE, whatever it does). When Sanada got pushed it resulted in him getting BA.

@The rest
While you can say that Atobe could get a new technique during the match, what's stopping me from saying that Sanada wouldn't get a new one as well, making the gap effectively the same again or possibly even widening it?
When you argue about the outcome of a match and want to take improvements into account, you might as well save yourself the time and effort since that argument can always apply to both sides.

You are right -- it does apply to both sides. What I'm seeing in this thread is that people hype up Sanada because of Rai or Black Aura...saying that Atobe can't cope with these techniques...

The point is that techniques in general evolve (on both sides). So if Sanada is superior technically right now, it does not mean he is better as both players will evolve technically -- BA will be obselete and so will AK. But in terms of characterization, Atobe has a knack for attaining match equality -- at which point anything can happen (even a draw as in Irie!). So I feel that whoever Atobe plays, he will find some way to get to a tiebreak, and anything can happen from there.

But look, I'm willing to say that Atobe and Sanada are approximately equal (its too close to call). I'm pretty sure if they played each other it would be a close, long drawn out match. I also believe -- and this isn't exactly factual -- that Atobe will end up in a tier similar to Tezuka. If I were to visualize an ending to the franchise, it would consist of Echizen joining the pros along with Tezuka and Atobe.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

Trust me. I am no comedian. Its not 'plot power'. It is the fact that we have simply not seen Atobe get challenged enough or pushed to the brink of losing.

We saw Irie walk all over him for fun. Then at the end, we saw Tanegashima let us know Irie COULD have won anyway. Im sorry but your being an intense fan right now. We DID see Atobe lose to Echizen Ryoma and get smacked by Irie who let it be a draw.

We are now seeing Ochi alone take out Atobe and Niou with Mouri on the side just having fun. We see Atobe get challenged and pushed to the brink of losing in NEARLY EVERY MATCH HE PLAYS.
Injured Tezuka took him to 7-6 FFS.

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

Sanada lost 7-1 to Yuki in the U17. Is it implausible that Atobe would have taken him to a tiebreak -- somehow? One of Atobe's techniques and characteristics -- not plot power -- is his knack for clawing his way to match equality. That is a fact that has been demonstrated numerous times. Given this knack, I don't see him losing 7-1 to Yuki.

Its possible that Yukimura could defeat him without it reaching tie-break.

Sanada's characteristic is ALSO to claw his way through a match. He did so with Yukimura who was crushing him, now Sanada is possibly as strong as Yuki and there is the argument he could be stronger. Sanada survived Yips due to his characteristic while Tooyama and Fuwa could not.
So basically your beloved Atobe isnt the only one with the persistent characteristic. Given them BOTH having this knack, It still boils down to Atobe overcoming Rai. HE CANNOT RIGHT NOW. Sanada > Atobe its as clear as day right now.

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

But I'm willing to concede that Atobe and Sanada are roughly similar since tennis is not transitive. Anyone who asserts that one is better than the other and passes this off as fact is a comedian. Simply put, we cannot discount Atobe (as many have done on the forums) and then claim its axiomatic. In reality we are all speculating.

Can Atobe defeat Rai? YES or NO?
We are NOT discounting Atobe on this forum. I am aware how awesome he is. He is just not as strong as Sanada from what we have been given.
It is NOT speculation if Atobe has no way to defeat Rai as far as we know. Let alone Black Aura which is shown to be possibly comparable to TMnK.

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

To summarize; I'll take Atobe's knack for tenacity and unwillingness to lie down (a permanent feature) over Rai or Black Aura (techniques that will near obseletion in a few epochs). This line of thinking may deviate from the way the forum does business, but it is no less factual.

Sanada willingly lies down then? He persisted despite getting walked over by Yukimura and it paid off as he got a new technique out of it.
Tooyama and Fuwa were destroyed by Yips however Sanada survived Yips. It means that Atobe isnt the only one with persistence.
So I am still dealing with facts. Nothing suggests Atobe is MORE persistent than Sanada. They have equal persistence we could say.
Can Atobe defeat Rai?? HE CANNOT AS FAR AS WE ARE AWARE. Let alone Black Aura.

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

Who is the comedian now?

Its STILL you. How does Atobe defeat Rai? Let alone Black Aura which can take a point of Yukimura which MOST/NearlyALL MSers cannot do.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

You are right -- it does apply to both sides. What I'm seeing in this thread is that people hype up Sanada because of Rai or Black Aura...saying that Atobe can't cope with these techniques...

But you haven't provided anything that actually contradicts that claim except that he might possibly get a power up that allows him to deal with it, which is irrelevant to a discussion we are having now.

Originally Posted by fdsjkl

The point is that techniques in general evolve (on both sides). So if Sanada is superior technically right now, it does not mean he is better as both players will evolve technically -- BA will be obselete and so will AK.

It means he is better at this point in the series, and as we can't know what will happen in the future, that is what matters right now.

Also it's false to say that any aura/technique will become obsolete in the next match, Drive B for example lasted a long time, so did Kisarazu's Sky Inversion Drop Volley or even Tezuka Zone, just to name a few.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

You are right -- it does apply to both sides. What I'm seeing in this thread is that people hype up Sanada because of Rai or Black Aura.

It isn't hype, Sanada really IS that good. It is just the facts.

Quote:

But look, I'm willing to say that Atobe and Sanada are approximately equal (its too close to call).

That's the problem. None of us are willing to say that. All the facts say otherwise.

Quote:

I also believe -- and this isn't exactly factual -- that Atobe will end up in a tier similar to Tezuka. If I were to visualize an ending to the franchise, it would consist of Echizen joining the pros along with Tezuka and Atobe.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Originally Posted by Brandnewkid

I'm still not understanding why everyone's sleeping on Atobe just because he's not Rikkai or Yukimura or Echizen or whatever. Do you realize how good of a tennis player Atobe is? Genius be damned, this is the guy who used Muga without using Muga. He's the King of Tennis for a reason.

I'm not saying he's stronger than Sanada, but for him to beat Sanada wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Game done.

Listen. Nobody is sleeping on him. The nickname King still means nothing to the argument.
As the destined best in the series is only the Prince, and the Pierrot (Irie) walked all over him.

Finally, I am well aware how awesome Atobe is. Its just that Sanada is definetely better as of now.
Atobe is in Akutsu, Shiraishi, Tooyama, Niou, Fuji group. Not Yukimura Sanada group. That's all.

I even mentioned before in my posts that he shut down Ryoma in Muga like youve referred to. But him beating Sanada cant happen with what we have been shown.

That's the problem. None of us are willing to say that. All the facts say otherwise.

@fdsjkl I am willing to say it. Only once Konomi shows us exactly HOW Atobe has a hope of overcoming Sanada. Since we cant see how Atobe takes out Rai and Black Aura then no. Saying they are equal is fiction. Pure fan-fic.

Re: How strong is Atobe ... really?

Look, I understand where you guys are coming from. But, its like someone said,..., Drive B lasted a long time (against fodder opponents mainly) to establish Ryoma's identity. The way the canon goes, techniques are ephemeral.

This is why you cannot only compare characters based on techniques you think are better or worse. So fine, let me concede that perhaps Sanada's techniques counter Atobe's techniques.

I'm not willing to concede that Atobe's knack for clawing his way to match equality isn't stronger than Sanada's knack. Atobe's entire identity -- from when he was in England -- revolves around this knack. So yes, I think its safe to say that in terms of stamina and persistence Atobe is probably better than Sanada. We can debate this point, but I think even you will have to agree that this is likely true. Again, not saying that Sanada will let ppl walk over him...but Atobe losing 7-1 would be extremely extremely out of character. (In fact, you can make the argument that this is why the writers had Irie sandbag against Atobe).

Thus, if Sanada's technique is better right now, but Atobe's knack is better, its kind of a wash. If pressed, I would pick the tenacity over technique.

To put it another way. I could see Atobe beating Sanada 7-0 as a more plausible match than Sanada beating Atobe 7-0. Even if Atobe is outclassed, he will probably take it to a tiebreak,..., where anything can happen.