@alt12 - my comment to Water Dog was in response to their concern that they'd be deemed a scalper because their info wasn't familiar to Burning Man from years past. They absolutely have nothing to worry about in that department, being new doesn't make them a scalper in the ticketing team's eyes. Your having pre-failed the system (several weeks, not just a few days before the drawing) is your choice, sorry I don't subscribe to it. The drawing is designed to address the situation we're in, that more people want tickets than there are tickets to be had. Scalpers are being scrubbed from the list, while I'm sure some opportunists may have gotten through I think the majority are being identified and removed. Not all of the hoarders are panic-driven, some are profiteering (raising money for camps and projects), and some are covering for members of their camp or part of their project. Personally, I think there's a huge contingent of signups that are just plain brand new people. They're a part of the more than 1.1 million views on Teddy's amazing video, and driven by that decided hell yeah they were going to sign up and try and go. Of course, had they not done anything and just put tickets on an open sale like last year (with increased capacity to handle demand), the event would have sold out within hours and there'd be no next step beyond the scalper market (which would have gotten plenty, because you can't stop them in an unrestricted open sale).

@pink - the survey results are absolutely and completely separated from ticket registrations. The survey results will eventually be tabulated by a different department (from the ticketing department) within Burning Man.

@CapnJoe - I don't think name on ticket would work, for a number of reasons. First, if anybody gets to change the names for any reason, it defeats the purpose of the whole system (and if you don't, it screws up gifting and tickets for projects/camps and completely screws over ppl who end up not being able to go), and then second it creates a massive delay at the gate that would probably catastrophically overwhelm the infrastructure (gate crew and local highway system). Yeah, Glastonbury does it, but they have 7 fully staffed gates (and a lot more transportation infrastructure).

trilobyte wrote:@CapnJoe - I don't think name on ticket would work, for a number of reasons. First, if anybody gets to change the names for any reason, it defeats the purpose of the whole system (and if you don't, it screws up gifting and tickets for projects/camps and completely screws over ppl who end up not being able to go), and then second it creates a massive delay at the gate that would probably catastrophically overwhelm the infrastructure (gate crew and local highway system). Yeah, Glastonbury does it, but they have 7 fully staffed gates (and a lot more transportation infrastructure).

Ah, so now I see how Glastonbury does it. 7 gates, multiple entry points. BRC has one paved single lane highway. Therefore one entry point...

I am not saying personalized tickets wont work at all, I only see this scheme increasing the gate wait times. (ie: Dude, my ID is in a bin in the front of my cube van and I have to unload everything to get it.. or better, crap my ID is in San Fran, Chicago, Vegas, etc... Some burners are the least organized people on this earth!!)

I sincerely believe scalpers make up a small percentage of ticket sales. The event size, as dictated by the BLM is limited, and there are more people wanting to go than the permit will allow. Therefore some folks will stay home. (trespassing, aka sneaking into burning man, is on federal land and therefore a federal ticket)

Love Rice

Roach: "I feel like in this day and age, every girl should know how to build a flamethrower."

With another sell out expected, I would have liked to have seen a system where registrations from 2011 were scrubbed for scalpers and scammers, then have the main sale limited to those remaining who had registered last year. I realize when demand for tickets exceeds supply, no system will be perfect for everyone, but those of us who have attended burning man in previous years have often established relationships and traditions with certain camps and other burners and I feel should be given an edge on tickets over someone who has never attended. Just my two cents.

fhaver wrote:With another sell out expected, I would have liked to have seen a system where registrations from 2011 were scrubbed for scalpers and scammers, then have the main sale limited to those remaining who had registered last year. I realize when demand for tickets exceeds supply, no system will be perfect for everyone, but those of us who have attended burning man in previous years have often established relationships and traditions with certain camps and other burners and I feel should be given an edge on tickets over someone who has never attended. Just my two cents.

I disagree! Burning Man is not a exclusive club. Anyone who wishes to attend should have equal opportunity. Unfortunately, there is a population limit. Therefore some virgins and experienced burners alike will stay home.

I am not Burnier than thou....

Love Rice

Roach: "I feel like in this day and age, every girl should know how to build a flamethrower."

Given that the number of tickets is limited by the BLM agreement, at some point the demand for tickets is going to exceed supply. That happened last year (early summer ?), and it looks like it happened this year in January. When this happens, there are not too many ways it can go. Either ticket cost increases, either through primary price increases or via secondary market scalpers, or there is a lottery for tickets priced below their auction value with some kind of individual idenity system on each ticket to prevent sale on the secondary market (ticket holder photo or other personal identifiers). It is true that printing purchaser identity information on each ticket increases cost a bit, and effectively stops ticket gifting, but it does kill scalping and therefore makes it possible to keep down ticket prices.

[quote="trilobyte@pink - the survey results are absolutely and completely separated from ticket registrations. The survey results will eventually be tabulated by a different department (from the ticketing department) within Burning Man.[/quote]

I meant the data could be used for statistical analysis, to see how many people were registering for more (or less) tickets than in earlier years. Just a bit of info to see if it is hoarding, or a huge influx of virgins. Hell, you could even track by date virgins registering after the video went viral if you wanted to see if there was a correlation between the video & virgins.

Or maybe they're doing this already, or have plans to do it already (likely). That info should be used if necessary to tweak the process for next year or determine the best way to run the STEP program.

I've got one of those really analytical minds. One of the things that blows me away is the artistic mind's expression at BM. Since my brain just doesn't go there (although I can be creative with words, just not visually).

Elsewhere was a great idea of keeping the early access to STEP limited to 'lottery losers' for a period of time. This is a similar idea.

A SECOND CHANCE LOTTERY!

* BMorg announces to all lottery winners they have one week to decline/cancel any over-purchased tickets for a full refund so BMorg can return those tickets back to the pool where BMorg can do its best to get them to burners instead of scalpers. (I think one week should be enough for most winners to check how their campmates and burner friends did in the lottery, and hopefully, enough to reconsider the temptations of scalping.)

* BMorg announces to all lottery losers they have two weeks to renew their existing order for a Second Chance Lottery for canceled tickets.

I just hate the notion that the fear of scarcity has driven good burners to, at best hoard, at worst scalp. Here is a chance to correct the error with "no harm, no foul", just a simple re-think/return/refund. I also believe BMorg is better capable of eliminating scalpers than STEP, where scalpers will look to slip in amongst us to buy face value tickets from good burners. And if the tempted can receive some redemption, our whole world just got a little bit better.

fhaver wrote:With another sell out expected, I would have liked to have seen a system where registrations from 2011 were scrubbed for scalpers and scammers, then have the main sale limited to those remaining who had registered last year. I realize when demand for tickets exceeds supply, no system will be perfect for everyone, but those of us who have attended burning man in previous years have often established relationships and traditions with certain camps and other burners and I feel should be given an edge on tickets over someone who has never attended. Just my two cents.

Ah, I started in 2002, and I got my ticket at a retail outlet.

And there will be veterans who end up buying from virgins this year.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Yeah, I started in 2005, walking in and plunking down cash, getting handed a survival guide and a ticket. And thinking, I'm really going this year! Damn, I can't remember how much it was, but I think the walk up tix were $280 or $300 then.

fhaver wrote:With another sell out expected, I would have liked to have seen a system where registrations from 2011 were scrubbed for scalpers and scammers, then have the main sale limited to those remaining who had registered last year. I realize when demand for tickets exceeds supply, no system will be perfect for everyone, but those of us who have attended burning man in previous years have often established relationships and traditions with certain camps and other burners and I feel should be given an edge on tickets over someone who has never attended. Just my two cents.

I disagree! Burning Man is not a exclusive club. Anyone who wishes to attend should have equal opportunity. Unfortunately, there is a population limit. Therefore some virgins and experienced burners alike will stay home.

@fhaver - I disagree with the notion of limiting to only past attendees. While the drawing may be stressful it offers everyone who registers a chance, which seems more radically inclusive than blocking new people from participating. Besides, we were all new once, the event wouldn't be anywhere near what it is if new people weren't allowed in.

@pink - that analysis is largely impossible. Burning Man doesn't keep tabs on who's going out with who, or friends with what people, or who anyone camps with, and even attempting to go down that road would not only require lots of resources but get very 'big brother-y'. Make no mistake though, the ticket team and the org do look at the numbers in many different ways.

@Kranster - stay tuned for details of STEP, to be announced early this week.

What I think we really need is some kind of 'burner pick & shovel summer camp' - we'll widen that road ourselves, dammit! It might take a couple summers, but would be worth the collective effort to be able to change the game so we're not bumping our heads on a BLM cap every year.

alt12 wrote:I think its fairly obvious that there are a shit-ton of scalpers descending on the event due to the sellout last year. I think its a very naive fantasy to assume that the increase in orders is due purely to well-meaning but scared burners who had their aunties buy tickets for them.

I think it's naive fantasy to assume that the boogyman (scalpers) is hiding under every rock.

trilobyte wrote:What I think we really need is some kind of 'burner pick & shovel summer camp' - we'll widen that road ourselves, dammit! It might take a couple summers, but would be worth the collective effort to be able to change the game so we're not bumping our heads on a BLM cap every year.

Not a bad idea. To get left turn lanes put into a highway here in Texas the local businesses can all chip in to help the state with the cost of the work. Perhaps at least some fundraising dedicated to highway assistance would not be out of order.

When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man - Token

Getting overly dramatic about the ticket sale process is so 2012. - Maladroit

trilobyte wrote:What I think we really need is some kind of 'burner pick & shovel summer camp' - we'll widen that road ourselves, dammit! It might take a couple summers, but would be worth the collective effort to be able to change the game so we're not bumping our heads on a BLM cap every year.

Every year I see freight trains go right through Gerlach. The track seems to head West to CA then South along 395 to downtown Reno. Chartered trains to move in and out an extra 10,000 people or so?

Last edited by Kranster on Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Plenty of train service in Reno, as well as working stations (I don't think those freight lines have stops in Gerlach these days, it's just one of those things where they fly on through). I suspect that stations and the necessary rail infrastructure to support some kind of to/from Reno (and SF) service would cost more than 100 miles of road widening, but that sure would be fun.

The trains, at say $100 a roundtrip ticket and $350 for additional BM tickets, a gross revenue for 10,000 people of $4.5 million. That means there could be money to lease land from the RR and build a simple station east of Gerlach as well as running the chartered trains. A parallel "spur" track, fencing, a platform, temp office space, porta-potties and power doesn't really cost that much and a ton of labor would be free (pick me! pick me!). Then run a hefty shuttle service to a "depot" on the playa which acts as a unique gate. We already have a dedicated separate "port", the airport for the 1%. This would be the dedicated depot for the 99%.

Hooking into Amtrak, the Reno airport and the I-80 corridor at one end, and, a dedicated depot/gate at the other, means we do not touch the 2 lane highway or Gerlach at all - if that would allow the BLM to up the ticket cap ... sweet! And if 10,000 worked, could it grow to 25,000 extra tickets? - 75,000+ burners!

As for marketing the train tickets, I know many will still want to use the road for their personal transport, but the reserved train tickets and the speed of the train compared to the all day Exodus traffic jam all the way to I-80? It would sell itself to many people on scheduled and shortened exit time alone, not to mention 200 miles of gasoline savings, and for many, no rental car from Reno. Really want to encourage rail (and raise more money for the project), add a freight pick up/delivery service to and from the playa.

The rail lines are owned by the railroad, who do not want to interfere with the movement of freight. That's one thing that's really messing with Amtrak. It leases lines on the West Coast. The Coast Starlight is chronically late because they have the right to put it on a siding at any time for any time to let a freight go by. I do not see them getting involved with the burning population in any way beyond the way we're all interconnected by commerce.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

[quote="trilobyte"]@fhaver - I disagree with the notion of limiting to only past attendees. While the drawing may be stressful it offers everyone who registers a chance, which seems more radically inclusive than blocking new people from participating. Besides, we were all new once, the event wouldn't be anywhere near what it is if new people weren't allowed in.[/quote]

my post didn't mean to say limiting all of burning man to only past attendees, but rather giving those who attended the previous year some advantage in this year's ticketing in a situation where demand now exceeds availability. If the main sale of 40,000 tickets was limited to last year's attendees, that still leaves 13,000 tickets where everyone has a chance. Not every single burner who attended last year would be attending this year even if they wanted to, so that might open more tickets to new people. I have read though it may be unconfirmed that the limit of attendees is increasing by around a couple thousand or so each year for the next few years; if true, that would open more tickets to new people.

I seem to be in a minority in thinking that burning man doesn't have to keep getting bigger and bigger every year. I have seen burning man grow nearly every year since 1998, when attendance was 15,000. I don't think bigger necessarily translates to better. Just my two cents.

btw, quote from the post card for Burning Man 98: "Purchase your admission ticket to Burning Man 98 before June 30, and receive a 19" X 24" poster of the front of this card. Tickets are $80 per person through August 15, $100 thereafter." Those were the days!

Last edited by fhaver on Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

fhaver wrote:[I have read though it may be unconfirmed that the limit of attendees is increasing by around a couple thousand each year for the next few years; if true, that would open tickets to new people.

It is the consensus around here that there soon may be no more increase in sales, because 447 can only bear so much traffic, and it's obviously close to that limit. However, we're not sure what the BLM is saying about limits.

There is more I'd like to say, but choose not to.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

It seems to me that on the way in, 447 is fine until you reach the dirt. On exodus, traffic crawls at a snail's pace until you reach 447 where there are up to 100+ car lengths between cars going 55 mph.

The camp with a differenceNever mind the weatherWhen you camp with Plug & PlyYour holiday's forever