Isn't it really all about Human Rights?

Brenda - posted on 04/11/2011
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So something Lisa said got me thinking, about the fact that for those like her that being an intactivist is a human rights issue. But I got to thinking even more, isn't that what being a lactivist is as well? And being an no spanking person? And being against sleep training? Isn't it all about treating babies like human beings?

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Minnie - posted on 04/12/2011

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I agree with you Brenda. I see it as realizing that babies are human beings and deserve ethical treatment and respect for who they are. For me that includes being sensitive to their needs of close human attachment, being breastfed, being supported in their capabilities and being accepted for their limitations, not being punished or hit or belittled, and of course, not having parts of their bodies removed without need.

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Welcome back, by the way. :) I love to hear your insight!

Certai issues appear to be given a greater weight- intactivism and lactivism seem to be a couple of those.

BTW, my husband came up with an awesome term for those who are pro-spanking and let everyone know their agenda: smactivists. LOL

Wow deep stuff! All I can say is take a look back to your childhood have you grown up to be a well rounded individual. Did you get a smack when stepping out of line or did you share your parents bed until you were at school and beyond.

Well I had slapped legs when I stepped out of line and I was never aloud to share my parents bed unless I was very scared of thunder and lightening. It never did me any harm. I raise my children to be well rounded individuals and that is all that matters. My boys had slapped legs when they were small 20 years ago but my daughter I have choosen not to smack because she listens to me and intonation in my voice is enough to make her stop. I have never co-slept with my kids and they have not suffered for it. All three of my kids have great sleep patterns and never suffered night terrors or waking in the night.

As for treating babies like human beings of course you do but like any other animal on the planet they need to learn from their parents right and wrong and there are lots of ways to do this without hitting them or screaming at them. If you are to soft on your child and let them run riot you will have major problems when they are older because the foundation of being nice polite human beings is not there.

I have such hard days when I yell and scream and I know I shouldn't but it is so hard right now. My stress level is through the roof, and I'm going through a pretty significant depression right now. (I'm in a class to learn how to give and interpret assessments, and one of those we took is the MMPI (Minnesota Multphasic Personality Inventory) which identifies stuff like anxiety, depression, helps in diagnosis of schizophrenia and a number of mental illnesses. My scores came back so high on the depression scale my proff circled it and asked to talk to me about it because it is "really high" as he put it). I feel so horrible though when I get so upset but it is so hard for me right now, and since I'm not getting any support from my husband....

I just look at the stuff that if I did to someone in a different scenario I'd be put in jail. If I was in a mental health facility and was sterilizing people with mental health problems, or cutting off parts of their bodies to "protect" them, or beating them when they got upset and cried over spilling their food, or yelling at them for not being able to do what I want them to, if I locked them in their rooms and let them scream until they exhausted themselves because they weren't sleeping on the schedule I deemed appropriate, I'd get thrown in jail. Yet, every day in our society people do exactly that to their children.

I think if it is wrong to do the things that are done to children and babies to another adult, it should be wrong to do them to a child

I definitely agree with that. I really like this quote:

Be wary of saying or doing anything to a child that you would not do to another adult whose good opinion and affection you valued.

~ John Holt

Adversarial parenting can affect us so deeply and negatively- and we might not realize it for a really long time- and then it just surfaces so suddenly. My co-Leader is dealing with that right now. She has chosen to end the cycle of adversarial parenting that she experienced with her family and her boys will grow up with an entirely different philosophy than she did.

I'm very thankful that my mother practiced gentle discipline- but all that was instilled in me got utterly destroyed when I went to that church for five years. I fully believe it was brainwashing. How else could a mindset geared toward positive discipline and peaceful living be so turned around backwards to think it was ok and God-sanctioned to whip one's children? It became completely interwoven into how we saw everything- everything was seen in an adversarial light, God, other people, ourselves, our marriage, our children. We haven't been in that church for two years this June and we still are healing from it. I've had to re-learn and re-instill gentle parenting into my mindset. We're supposed to forgive but I have not forgiven that church for stealing what they did from me.

Lol enough about my problems. It's good to think these deep thoughts, Brenda. And you're such a compassionate, dedicated mother. Your boys will have something you didn't.

I think we can all be pro baby. It is like saying that "I got spanked and I'm okay." It should be "I got spanked and I'm okay DESPITE that fact." Some people are resilient and some are not. I was not. And I'm suffering through tough times now that took thirty years to build up. I think of something my Lifespan professor said, that babies and children in our society are often treated in ways an animal trainer won't use. I think if it is wrong to do the things that are done to children and babies to another adult, it should be wrong to do them to a child. Men used to be able to legally beat their wives in the state I live in until 1980. All those men swore they were right to keep their women in line, and also their children.