Idzik's state of the team

SackExchange wrote:Oh, I absolutely agree. He is a SS. I don't like how he is being utilized, necessarily. But if given a shot to play SS, I think he could be very good.

And to be clear, when I say I am not sure this was a good draft pick, it is within the context of our needs and how we utilize him. Pryor has tons of ability, but if we miscast him as a free safety then he was a bad pick, because we could have had a better FS at that point in the draft (Haha Dix).

In other words, whether a guy is a good pick or not isn't purely a function of their skills--its also a function of the fit.

SackExchange wrote:Oh, I absolutely agree. He is a SS. I don't like how he is being utilized, necessarily. But if given a shot to play SS, I think he could be very good.

And to be clear, when I say I am not sure this was a good draft pick, it is within the context of our needs and how we utilize him. Pryor has tons of ability, but if we miscast him as a free safety then he was a bad pick, because we could have had a better FS at that point in the draft (Haha Dix).

In other words, whether a guy is a good pick or not isn't purely a function of their skills--its also a function of the fit.

SackExchange wrote:Oh, I absolutely agree. He is a SS. I don't like how he is being utilized, necessarily. But if given a shot to play SS, I think he could be very good.

And to be clear, when I say I am not sure this was a good draft pick, it is within the context of our needs and how we utilize him. Pryor has tons of ability, but if we miscast him as a free safety then he was a bad pick, because we could have had a better FS at that point in the draft (Haha Dix).

In other words, whether a guy is a good pick or not isn't purely a function of their skills--its also a function of the fit.

True, but is the fault in picking him, or in how he is used?

The two should be closely aligned. If they are not, we are dysfunctional and something has to change.

football51 wrote:We're all Jets fans here. We're all upset. Some are able to contain it better than others . However, I think it's unfair for fans and especially media to constantly use the tired line about 40+ years and not winning. It's like you're so fed up that when someone new comers in, there's very little tolerance. Idzik can only control from 2013-present. It's also a shame that Idzik had to keep Rex instead of hiring his own coach. Over the past two days, I've resigned myself to the belief that everyone is going to get fired. Idzik included. There's blood in the water now and this fanbase and media members like Mehta, Francesa, and Cimini will force total change. Here's the latest......

Manish Mehta @MMehtaNYDN · 18m 18 minutes agoRex Ryan is far from perfect, but it's unfortunate that he's had to deal with such a general manager the past two seasons. #nyj

Whomever we hire as gm is going to need to fit the following criteria to satisfy the masses.

1. strong personnel background

2. competent with the salary cap. if it's not a strength, hire a cap specialist.

5. gives inside information to the beat writers. this is a must or he'll incur their wrath

6. this one I just learned of yesterday. the new gm needs to have the delivery of Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson when speaking publicly. he's needs to be able to entertain the millions.......................... and millions of Jet haters/cynics out there.

7. he needs to spend every cap dollar we have as soon as possible. if that means being unable to then extend one of our own quality, young talents, then so be it. then he also needs to be prepared to be called a fool for allowing that to happen.

I guess Paul Allen didn't mind blowing cash and picks on Tavaris Jackson, Charlie Whitehurst, and Matt Flynn for two years before landing a quality qb in Wilson in year three. i guess Scneider wasn't dubbed "clueless" for throwing things against the wall and hoping that something stuck.

These rosters don't look all that different from what we have right now.

it's a shame we won't be able to see what would've come of year three.

Great post, football51. It seems as though being a GM for this team will not go over well with the fans and media unless all of this criteria is met. In reality, this person doesn't exist anywhere. There are no superhuman GM's running any NFL team. Idzik got 15 mins from this culture of vultures in the media, and this restless and impatient fanbase who are so jaded by years of mediocrity and near-misses that they call for firings at the first sign of trouble.

I'm not saying Idzik hasn't missed on some players, but he's not who needs to go right now. Mehta is "fostering" (to use one of his words) this angry, torches and pitchforks mentality towards Idzik. I'm readingthe comments sections of articles from Jets fans, and they're all parroting the same nonsense that Mehta is. Idzik is incompetent, stupid, awful, dillusional, ect. The front page of the Daily News was pathetic. The Village Idziot? Who's running the show at that rag? A bunch of 15 year old punk kids? It's pathetic.

51 I mentioned 40+ years. And yes you are right is a tired line. It's tired because it has been said for nearly the last 40 years. You want to see a trending upwards, not downwards. I honestly believe that if you give the fans something to be optimistic about, they will exercise patience. I can speak for myself and say I feel that way. And I have not been overly critical of Idzik in my estimation. I have tried to be objective and I think most would agree with that.

My opinion on whether to keep Idzik has very little to do with patience. It is about whether he instills confidence that he can deliver on what he says he can deliver on. My take on Idzik so far has been, he understands the theory, but can't execute the program. That's a problem. The proof is in the record, we are 1-7 and getting worse. Not 1-7 and showing signs of improvement. Not 1-7 with rookies and second year players making progress. It is the exact opposite with the exception maybe being Amaro. I am all for patience and continuity. But as a fan, I want to feel confident that the guy building this team is going to build a winner. Right now, it's really to hard to see that right now. That's all I am saying....

We're 1-7........... and it's my opinion that poor coaching/preparation, playing injured players(Milliner covering Nelson his first game back ), questionable usage of personnel(Harris covering Golden Tate),etc has cost us wins that have nothing to do with a lack of personnel. The Green Bay game, Lions game, Bears game, Pats game, were not lost because we lacked a mystical free agent. Against the best team in the AFC(Denver), it was 24-17 with just under two minutes left in the game. We didn't even bother to show up for the Chargers game. This past sunday, we had 4 turnovers by halftime and the score was 24-17. This team is woefully unprepared. I watch every week and question what was done during OTA's, mini camp, and training camp. Do we need personnel upgrades........ we most certainly do. However, look at the roster we finished the 2012 season with.

This is what Idzik had to work with. I know that I didn't believe he'd have everything fixed by year two. Rex has been a train wreck this year. At cb, put Walls on one side and Adams on the other with Wilson in the slot. Put Pryor where he is comfortable(and where he could positively impact the game like he did in the preseason where he was the #1 overall ranked safety). Put Allen in the deep middle. This can't possibly work out any worse than the garbage Rex is trying with Allen at cb and Pryor playing 30+ yards away from the LOS.

I really see three........ maybe four wins that this coaching staff has cost us.

Also, to show how full of garbage Mehta is, here's a tweet by him after the Jets/Pats game.

Manish Mehta @MMehtaNYDN · Oct 20Despite the records, I still think the Jets are a better team than the Giants through seven weeks. By a smidge. #nyj

Now, WE have the wretched roster? He just waits for something bad to happen to attack Idzik. The real difference between the Jets and Giants is the quality of coaching and preparation. Heck, Demario Davis has said as much about certain players not putting the work in. Where is the HC on this? Manish posts the above tweet despite the Giants having a HOF QB and spending like "drunken sailors"(that's the way the media described us in 2008/2009) this offseason.

football51 wrote:Also, to show how full of garbage Mehta is, here's a tweet by him after the Jets/Pats game.

Manish Mehta @MMehtaNYDN · Oct 20Despite the records, I still think the Jets are a better team than the Giants through seven weeks. By a smidge. #nyj

Now, WE have the wretched roster? He just waits for something bad to happen to attack Idzik. The real difference between the Jets and Giants is the quality of coaching and preparation. Heck, Demario Davis has said as much about certain players not putting the work in. Where is the HC on this? Manish posts the above tweet despite the Giants having a HOF QB and spending like "drunken sailors"(that's the way the media described us in 2008/2009) this offseason.

You can add this Decker quote to what Davis had to say.

“We’re not a bad football team,” Decker said, via NJ.com. “We just do stupid stuff. It’s something that, at this point, it’s frustrating. All you can do is carry on and keep chopping the wood. I think it’s the mistakes — that’s the biggest thing I’m going to take from this game. When you turn the ball over so much, when you have penalties, when you just do stupid stuff, you’re never going to win a football game.”

Thanks for posting. This is why I love that SITE. You don't get in depth articles like this from the regular beat. You get name calling, whining, exaggerations, and out right lies. Also, as noted, Collision Low Crossers is an excellent book that really exposed Ryan as a subpar HC.

If the premise of the article is that Rex is not a developer of talent, I completely agree. Rex is a coach that can coach a veteran team, particularly on defense. He can game plan with the best coaches in the NFL. His game plans in the playoffs were excellent, so he can win in January. But, as the article states, he has not been able to develop offensive talent. The Jets offense was competitive in 2009-2010 because they had a lot of veterans. It was a talented group. Shonn Greene and Brad Smith were really the youngest players, and both are role players (and they were good ones).

Here's the rub though - Rex is a goner anyway. We all know that. That is no longer the issue. The issue is whether the personnel group stays in tact, and whether Idzik stays or goes. It's just my opinion but it makes much more sense to start over completely. Let a respected GM with personnel and talent evaluation experience come in here and build this team. And a respected GM will be able to attract a good coach. I saw the papers calling for Polian and Pioli. Polian might not want the job at his age. But he's a great GM. Pioli would be a very interesting choice. He has credibility around the league. He has a history with the Jets. If he was interested. He is a Belichick guy, so that might be a problem. But, someone like that makes sense to me.

Many of you probably remember when Parcells came to the Jets. He brought instant credibility. We need someone like that to come here. A GM and new coach that brings instant credibility to this franchise. Someone that the fans can believe has the chops to turn this around and build a championship team. Idzik may have a plan, but he hasn't shown that he can actually execute on it, other than fixing the cap. I am not diminishing the importance of freeing up cap space, but that is not enough. That is just one small piece of a much larger puzzle.

Thanks for posting. This is why I love that SITE. You don't get in depth articles like this from the regular beat. You get name calling, whining, exaggerations, and out right lies. Also, as noted, Collision Low Crossers is an excellent book that really exposed Ryan as a subpar HC.

well is that does not convince anyone that he is and never was a HC - see Balt passing on him - then not sure what will.

John Schneider's plan didn't look too good after the 2010/2011 seasons either. He went through 3 JAG Qb's, failed trades, failed picks, failed free agent signings too. He hit on the QB in year three, and some of his picks began to develop.

Polian is older than dirt, and if you look at the last several drafts he had with the Colts, I'd pass. He rode the Manning train as far as it would go. I wonder what his legacy would be if Parcells promised Archie that he'd take Peyton in 1997 and Polian got stuck with Leaf. I also wonder if tom Moore would be a genius with Leaf at qb.

Pioli defied his father in law (Parcells) in 2000 and left the Jets with Belichick. There's bad blood there and Pioli didn't exactly do anything special in KC. He's also part of the Falcons front office now. How's that working out?

Thanks for posting. This is why I love that SITE. You don't get in depth articles like this from the regular beat. You get name calling, whining, exaggerations, and out right lies. Also, as noted, Collision Low Crossers is an excellent book that really exposed Ryan as a subpar HC.

well if that does not convince anyone that he is and never was a HC - think about why Balt passed on him for HC - then not sure what will.

51, I am not saying those are necessarily the right choices, but the fit the criteria of having a personnel track record in the league. I don't think criticizing Polian is good argument. Polian is a potential HOF GM. Long before he went to the Colts, he built the great Bills teams that went to 4 Super Bowls. Then he went to the Colts. You can say he rode the Manning train - but that's not giving him enough credit. He drafted a ton of great players, Marvin Harrison, Edjerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Bob Sanders, Dallas Clark, the offensive line was among the best in the league for years. Not to mention his picks with the Bills, a team loaded with HOF players. I do agree he is older and he may not even be interested in the job at this point in his life. Pioli is interesting because of his pedigree, I am not saying he is the right choice. I only mentioned him because someone in the media suggested him as a candidate. I am sure there are others out there. But the point is, finding a GM that brings instant credibility to the franchise will help attract a good coaching staff too. It all works together.

I get that Schneider's plan took years to work out. Maybe that will happen with Idzik too. But right now, it's hard to see a) exactly what the plan is, and, b) even harder to see exactly how Idzik is executing on "the plan." The only part of the plan he has ever mentioned has been that the draft is the lifeline for the team. So far, he has had 19 picks, with very mixed results. And the media in NY doesn't respect him at all. Don't think for a second that is an unimportant factor. It is huge. Rightly or wrongly it is huge. It is hard to change the culture of a franchise and start a rebuilding effort when the media is going to be on this guy until he is run out of town. There are three ways for that to stop - 1. Winning. Ok, that's not happening any time soon. The Jets could win the rest of their games and it won't matter. (That won't happen, but even if it did, it would make little difference). The second way is to make a move and bring in a GM with credibility. And the third way is to bring in a big name coach. But again, what big name coach like Gruden or Dungy or someone like that is going to come here if Idzik is already on the hot seat, which he is.

Parcells is the example I use. The media in NY didn't love him, but they certainly respected his acumen. He brought instant credibility to the Jets. Tannenbaum was a Parcells disciple, so he had credibility in the eyes of the fans and the media.

Idzik doesn't have that, and he probably lost a fair amount of his credibility the other day in the eyes of the fans and the media. I am not saying it is right, but it is reality.

I don't think we can let the media dictate our moves. We shouldn't give into bully tactics. What if they don't like the next guy? What if he doesn't give out information like Tannenbaum either? Do we fire him then too? Like this thread has shown, Tannenbaum started his second year as gm 1-8. Now, because he fed the media, they let him slide and attacked Mangini because he had the surly personality. Idzik drafted the best player(Richardson) in last years' draft and was ridiculed by the media for the pick when he made it. Richardson won DROY. A strong arguement could be made that Amaro could have an excellent shot at OROY this season with better qb play. It's hard to tell what Geno is or isn't considering offensive talent never develops under Ryan. Personally, I'd like to see Idzik with his coaching choice. It's hard to fully put your plan in place when you're being forced to keep a coach and his staff that you originally wouldn't have wanted. Who knows, maybe some of these picks would be developing better with different coaches. That TOJ link in this thread shows a serious player development problem plus lack of preparation. These players aren't being prepared properly.

Joe Caporoso retweeted Corey Griffin @CoreyGriffinNBC · 3h 3 hours agoI just don't get how you hire a GM based off him selling a long-term plan, force him to keep your coach and then axe him after two years.

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours agoWorking off #LRT - Think of how ludicrous it is to hand a GM the roster and cap situation he received, a mandate to keep the HC and trade...

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours ago...the team's injured best player and then decide to can him after 2 seasons.

Thanks for posting and an excellent read. a lot of good points made. This is the end of the road for Ryan. The problem now is who the Jets can hire if Idzik is still GM. Who will want to come if they think the GM is on a hot seat going forward from this seasons mess.

football51 wrote: Joe Caporoso retweeted Corey Griffin @CoreyGriffinNBC · 3h 3 hours agoI just don't get how you hire a GM based off him selling a long-term plan, force him to keep your coach and then axe him after two years.

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours agoWorking off #LRT - Think of how ludicrous it is to hand a GM the roster and cap situation he received, a mandate to keep the HC and trade...

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours ago...the team's injured best player and then decide to can him after 2 seasons.

Agree with Joe C on all except for his dismissal of the Jalen Saunders fiasco. 4th round picks have real value, especially to teams trying to rebuild like the Jets are. Obviously they have value because it was a 4th that got us Ivory. His argument makes no sense at all.

football51 wrote: Joe Caporoso retweeted Corey Griffin @CoreyGriffinNBC · 3h 3 hours agoI just don't get how you hire a GM based off him selling a long-term plan, force him to keep your coach and then axe him after two years.

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours agoWorking off #LRT - Think of how ludicrous it is to hand a GM the roster and cap situation he received, a mandate to keep the HC and trade...

Joe Caporoso @TurnOnTheJets · 3h 3 hours ago...the team's injured best player and then decide to can him after 2 seasons.

Agree with Joe C on all except for his dismissal of the Jalen Saunders fiasco. 4th round picks have real value, especially to teams trying to rebuild like the Jets are. Obviously they have value because it was a 4th that got us Ivory. His argument makes no sense at all.

A lot of excuses made here.

Jalen Saunders was cut after 5 weeks, that's not enough time to develop a player, which shows how poorly he was scouted. Jalen Saunders isn't the only scouting issues we have under Idzik, it's the biggest one. We could add names like Milliner, Pryor, Geno, and Winters to that list if we wanted right behind Saunders, just Saunders is more impactful because it is so bad.

Also, I keep hearing this stupid argument about a long term plan.

Do we think we're following Idzik's long term plan right now? Yes, I see Joe and the Idzik band wagon feel we're on the same path as Seattle. Okay, which part of the Seattle plan, or the Idzik plan, included a 1-3 win season?

The plan is off the tracks, Idzik never planned for his players to be this bad and coaching direction to be this bad. If the press conference showed anything, by the continuous apologies and back tracking, things have gone way off the tracks for Idzik this year, and he plainly told us so during this press conference. Why make so many excuses for something Idzik himself admitted to?