Effectively Debating the Trinity

If you are a JW going door to door, no doubt you often are drawn into discussions about the Trinity. You may feel pretty set with your debate points on the topic, but it never hurts to get some more help, especially when you occasionally face Christians who have made proving their view of the Trinity a hobby. Here is a book that will help you with more information and arguments to defend the view that Jesus is not part of a Trinity, but instead the created Son of God and the first of Jehovah’s creation, having had a pre-human existence. In the book, “The Doctrine of Christ,” you will find clear and overwhelming evidence from the Bible and history.

29 comments to Effectively Debating the Trinity

Also, no ever thinks to look at Satans work to see hints of the Triune God as well. I think you will find some interesting facts in that alone.

Here is Satan copying God:
Isaiah 14:13-satan will go above God and sit on his throne. This tells me there is and always has been only 1 throne in heaven, not 2.

Rev. 13:3-9
The beast (antichrist) is wounded then miracously healed! Like Jesus

Luke 24:39
“See m.y hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.”

Jesus also was killed and raised in his same flesh body!

Revelation 20:10
The Devil, Beast, and False Prophet all thrown into the lake of fire (hell, gehanna) to be tormented day and night). Notice 3 persons here of Satan. Could it be a copy of Father, Son, Holy Spirit? After all, Satan tries to imitate God.

Think about it, he came to rob, kill, destroy. 3 motives
And we have overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil. 3 items
And Jesus defeated death, hell, and the grave. 3 items

Numbers mean something to God.

We see the number 3 a lot. This number has a sense of divinity

The number 7 is a number of divine fullness or completion. (Seven days a week)

The number 12 has the sense of perfection. 12 apostles, 12 tribes of isreal, 144,000 people is obviously metaphorical because it is 12 x 12 x 1000. Then you see in heaven a multitude that couldn’t be numbered. So this number is not a little flock, but a number of completion. If it is literal than it can’t be JW’s but Jewish virgins! And we are before gods throne in heaven!

One more verse to think about and then I’ll back off of this thread

2 Cor 11:3
But I am afraid that as the serpant decieved Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Alex,
Amazon online and Barnes and Noble online have them used at a good price. Put in eight translation new testament. I like the Tyndale because that is the one I have. New it can be pricey. My JW uncle 95yrs old now, gave me a lot of good books. This one is a hardback 1974.
I agree also that the number 144,000 cannot be literal, yet complete. I might go so far in my understanding to say the Great crowd is yet another way of referring to the same group.
Most humans like surprises, and want some of us be surprised when the Lord begins his reign and all that comes with it, including a full and accurate understanding of the Bible. But isn’t it satisfying to study it now? It gives one a great sense of satisfaction discussing our Father. Take Care, Thanks and Peace.
Jacqueline

Sr. Jacqueline, I appreciate your thoughts. I hope you don’t mind if I offer an alternative thought about the Great Company. Rev 7:9 says that no man could number the Great Crowd, but we do know the number of the 144,000; so to my mind they are different classes.

The Great Crowd comes out of Great Tribulation to wash their robes white (Rev 7:14). Although this probably has an end time application, I think it also ties well with the scriptures I gave to Alex. For example, they are “saved so as by fire” (1 Cor 3:15) even though their inferior work is burned up. The foolish virgins lacked oil (Matt 25:8). These concepts seem to me to relate to the Great Crowd’s robes beings spotted. Those spots are cleaned through great personal tribulation in their life (corresponding to “saved by fire”).

Hi Alex – Numbers in Revelation are literal, even if they have a symbolic meaning as well. There were literally seven churches, seals, trumpets and plagues in Revelation. The 42 months are the same as the 1260 days of Daniel and also the times, times and a half (3 1/2 times). Each time is 360 days, so 3 1/2 times 360 is the 1260 days.

The 144,000 is the literal number of the bride of Christ, earths future priests, kings and judges. However, other Christians will be in heaven as well, they just will not be part of the bride of Christ.

The Anointed can be broken down into two classes after death: 1) the 144,000 and 2) those who fall short of the 144,000, but who are not going into second death.

We believe this second class is the same as the Great Crowd of Rev. 7. Notice the scriptural evidence for this second class.

The Race:

1 Cor 9:24 – “Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it.” NWT
Paul here tells us that not everyone in the race will win the prize. We believe that those who do not win the prize are part of this second class called the Great Crowd in Rev. 7.

A Full Reward:
“Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward.” (2Jo 1:8 NWT)
John implies there is a lesser reward by urging the brethren to receive a full reward. We think that lesser reward is the Great Crowd.

Building on our Foundation:

“11 ¶ For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood materials, hay, stubble, 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is. 14 If anyone’s work that he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward; 15 if anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved; yet, if so, it will be as through fire.” (1Co 3:11-15 NWT_)

This passage describes two classes, both of whom build their foundation in Christ (vs 11). The Little Flock are the ones described as building with gold, silver and precious stones (vs 12). They will be rewarded (vs 14). The second group of the anointed build with wood, hay and stubble (vs 12). They will be saved through fire (trials, great tribulation)(vs 15)

The gold, silver and precious stones are the Christ-like character qualities developed (i.e. the fruits of the spirit). The wood, hay and stubble are the deficient character qualities of this anointed group which disqualify them from the 144,000 office of priests and kings (Rev 20:6). However, these are not going into second death. As verse 15 says, they will be “saved.” This is the Great Crowd of Rev 7. They come out of great tribulation, which for some is that tribulation in coming out of Armageddon and for others the personal tribulation they experience in their life before dying, which Jehovah permits to help them wash the spots (sins) off of their robes (Rev 7:14)

Discreet and Foolish Virgins:

“1 ¶ ”Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet.” (Mt 25:1-2 NWT)

In the New Testament, the word “virgins” applies to Anointed Christians (11 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:3,4) The foolish did not have much oil in their lamps (vs 8 ) and none extra in their receptacles. Both oil and anointing with oil are associated with the holy spirit (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor 1:21, 22; 1 John 2:27). The lesson is that some of the Anointed are not filled with the Holy Spirit. They lack in zeal and the fruits of the spirit. The solution was to have been developing the fruits of the spirit in their lives, depicted by purchasing the oil (acquiring the Christ-like character by suffering for righteousness). The door was shut by the time the foolish virgins arrived (vs. 10), demonstrating that putting off serving the Lord and developing the fruits of the spirit will result in loss of the crown (Rev 3:11), however there is no statement to indicate that the foolish virgins go into second death, but simply that they lose the opportunity to enter the marriage feast.

Called, Chosen and Faithful

“These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.”” (Re 17:14 NWT_)

The called, chosen and faithful represent three progressive conditions. Those that are called are invited to the marriage (Matt 22:3,14). Those that are chosen have accepted the invitation and were chosen to be anointed (1 Peter 1:1,2) with the holy spirit. Those that are faithful unto death will receive the crown of life (Rev 2:10), the divine nature. This final group is the 144,000.

Just as not all who are called are chosen, so also, not all who are chosen to be Anointed, receive the crown of life (the Divine Nature). This group that is not totally faithful unto death are the same as previously mentioned in 1 Cor 3:10-15 who do not receive the reward, but are saved by fire. They are the Great Crowd of Rev 7 who serve before the throne and were pictured by the Levites who served in the tabernacle. They are mentioned in Psa 45:14 as the virgins, the brides companions in the Kings palace. These same bride’s companions are the Great Crowd of Rev 19:6 who in verse 7 are at the marriage supper (in heaven) rejoicing.

Sorry if my messages turned from interesting and encouraging, to just argument.

I can take a hint 🙂

If you don’t mind me waiting until the weekend to write on ‘Ask Jaqueline’, I would love to share on this website.

I like what you said about encouragement and edification, and I believe that your timing was perfect 🙂 its always important to bring the tempo of any (christ centered) discussion back to a loving community.
Once again, sorry if I went to far.

I am really looking forward to being apart of this group on here, and hope that we will continue to challenge eachother while remaining in Love.

Bob did have questions about the Holy Spirit, and I have a feeling Peter K will have a few more comments like he said. If its alright, I would like to just post 1 more thing on the attributes and functions of the holy spirit, and then I’ll call it good 🙂

Alex Hi,
You do have to excuse me I sometimes look deeper into a person that the surface. There is so much unsaid in your comments. What do I mean?
A person that is so driven and defends himself so WELL on scripture has something else to say, generally.
I want to know how you got there! I know others that are just reading the post and answers. They ask who is he??? What else can he impart. We want to hear your story. Then back at the trinity or whatever. We ( a lot of former JWS and other religious persons) are on telephone hook-up, hundreds of us are talking and going to the different websites. They want to know your story. I for one see something deeper to be said. Where did you learn this deep scriptural knowledge? Are you a priest, minister, etc?
We want to have you post, Please continue, but people are focusing on who you are and where is your journey heading in Christ.
This is what 2 of us want to know your take on. What is happening with Paul.
2Cor.12: 1-6 Is this a vision in your opinion?
In Christ and Peace my brother,
Jacqueline

I’ve been interestingly following your discussion. Most scriptures quoted talk about only two people and not three, therefore I can’t understand where the trinity comes in. Is the Holy Spirit dismissed in these scripture as inconsequential? Or is it taken for granted? After all the Holy Spirit is one third of this triune god-head and yet you rarely mentioned it. It seems that you’re discussing whether Jesus is Jehovah, not the trinity doctrine.
I would like to just share an interesting web site with you, (Jacqueline you’re probably familiar with it) it’s http://www.2001translation.com
Go to the Bible book of John 1:1 and click on “powefull one”. It’s an interesting commentary which leads to others.
Gal 1:3-5; 2Cor 1:3; John 20:17

Alex, you stated, “I think you are missing the whole context of that verse.”

I don’t think I did miss the context of this verse at all. In fact, let’s look at the context. Verses 1-4 show that we should also not try to look to exalting ourselves, but to humble ourselves and serve others.
Verse 5 says we should have this same mind in us that Jesus had in him, then he gets into the verses we touched on.

The Greek word for “form” here is Strongs #3444, “morphe”, which according to Professor Strong, means “shape; figuratively, nature”

The Greek says he was in the shape of God…nature fits perfectly here. “God is a spirit” (John 4:24) – Jesus had the spirit nature also, not fleshly human.
🙂

Finally, as promised, let’s look at the context of John 1:1-14, which is why I believe this is not
saying Jesus and God are part of a trinity.

I am putting my comments in with brackets {} so that you can see where I am coming from.

“1 In the beginning was the Word {Jesus}, and the Word was with God {his Father}, and the Word {Jesus} was God {I believe that the translation godlike or divine is more accurate here, for the reasons stated in my earlier post on John 1:1}.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him nothing was made that was made. {This is an important point that John was making here, as he was combating the thoughts of the Gnostics coming in saying that Jesus was a spirit being and only made himself appear to be human, and those who said that Jesus was only a man, and never had a pre-human existence. John is at this point showing that Jesus had a glorious pre-human existence with his Father, and gave it up to become human to die for our sins.}
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. {Jesus was not under the condemnation of death from Adam’s sin. This is how he could be a Ransom for Adam, as no fallen human could be a ransom for another, since they were already condemned – see Psalm 49:7}
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. {The world is in darkness, not understanding God’s love, wisdom, and justice, or the power He uses to implement these things}
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all through him might believe. {John showed Jesus to be the Messiah, the one to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29)}
8 He was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that light.
9 That was the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world. {This would have to be in God’s Kingdom, as not every man has been enlightened with Jesus’ words and example…what a precious promise!}
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him. {Showing that Jesus was the creator of all things…made by God through His son, also stated so beautifully in verse 3. This fits so beautifully with Jesus being called the Word, and in Genesis, God created by speaking…And God said…, so Jesus fulfilled what God said, in creating all things.}
11 He came to his own, and his own did not receive him.
12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name: {Again, what a precious promise. Jesus opened up a “new and living way” (Hebrews 10:20) to become heirs…even joint heirs with him (Romans 8:17)}
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father, full of grace and truth.” {Jesus became human and lived on the earth…not that we beheld his glory as that of the Father…but as the only begotten of the Father}.”
🙂

While your questions are being reviewed by our conscientious contributors, I just wanted to give you the following excerpt from a book on the subject.

“Over the years I have heard many Christians express frank confusion about the nature of the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This state of affairs seems inappropriate for the worshipers of a God who withheld nothing, not even His beloved only-begotten Son, from us.
Jesus prayed: “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3 NIV) Jesus’ statement suggests to me that neither God nor His Son should be mysterious to His children.”

I think that both sides of the discussion will agree that the explanation of that relationship does not come without some confusion. Now, what do we do with this? We may, on one hand, maintain that this is God’s mystery, and that it is ok to leave it at unsearchable. On the other hand, we may desire (humbly) to search the Scriptures and explain the difficult or mysterious expressions.

Even though the Apostle admits that now he sees as through the glass, dimly, he says that eventually, “I will know as I am known” (1 Cor 13) and the prophet promises that at some point the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as water covers the sea (Hab 2:14). One could argue that in the scripture you quoted in Romans 11, though the apostle Paul declares God’s ways unsearchable, he actually explains/unveils a feature of God’s plan regarding Israel (11:25), and he says that he does not want us to be ignorant of that mystery [in this case not the Trinity – but the principle is that though it may have been otherwise unsearchable, he has been given an insight into it and shares it with us]. The Bible Students tend to hope for the latter path. They feel that while there may have been times of ignorance and mystery, there would be an unveiling of biblical truths.

In addition to the book referenced above, I would like to encourage you and others to read the book from which the first sentence of this comment is taken. It is entitled “Father-Son Relationship” and is written by Ron Frye, who is a former JW. I believe that you will find this booklet an honest work of a sincere and open-minded student. Let us know if not. I do feel that it will appeal to your expressed passion for keeping true to the Word of God and good scholarship.
The book is found at http://www.christianrespondent.com/pubs/Father-Son.pdf

With all due respect Joanna, I think you are missing the whole context of that verse.
Jesus existed before his incarnation in the ‘form’ of God. This word word ‘form’ in the greek means by very nature he was God. The very same stuff as his Father.

Now the verse ‘counted equality a thing not to be grasped’, means ‘counted it not a highly prized possesion’. This is what A.T. Robertson says.
So then he emptied himself (Christ willingly emptied himself, he wasn’t commanded to, he had the power to choose to)
Notice the key words, ‘but’, and then ‘humbled’