I'm a Pakistani-Canadian who blogs about sexuality in South Asia, religion & politics.
If you have a story you'd like to share, contact me at:
nicemangosDOTblogATgmailDOTcom
You can support blog via patreon https://www.patreon.com/nicemangos or PayPal

Monday, November 23, 2015

Warning: This post contains conversation that may be upsetting to some readers.

So a few months ago, somehow…I forget the exact conversation. But I was approached on Twitter by some real, actual pedophiles who took objection to me ‘generalizing' pedophiles as bad people, or as molesters. I know, I know…my reaction was WTF, like yours. In my online interactions with people I have also been told not to generalize Nazis or white supremacists as bad people either. But anyway, I digress...

Some pedophiles apparently, despite feeling attraction are 'non-offending'…and do not molest children. Or this is the claim at least. Somehow, despite there being no intent to commit a sexual crime, I am not comforted.

There is some real dark shit on Twitter.

***

When the initial sick feeling that came with seeing (virtually) a person even identify themselves as a pedophile died down….I tried to wrap my head around the logic. And decided to engage in an email conversation with one of the self-identified *non-offending* pedophiles.

As someone who has campaigned long and hard against childhood sexual abuse in Pakistan, as someone who has suffered through some form of it myself…this is not a subject I take lightly. But as a victim, of even mild pedophilia…I felt I owed it to myself to understand the mentality of someone attracted to a child better. To answer my lifelong questions of "why?" And especially if someone says that despite being attracted, they refrain from acting on their sexual desires…what does this mean? How can we trust this to be true? If people like this were provided with more support could we protect our children better? These were questions I needed answered.

As an initial reaction, it hurts me to even think about any sort of support being given to someone that has such a predatory attraction. But treating those that have never acted upon their pedophilic desires as pariahs or human garbage seems to be counterproductive from an intellectual and safety perspective. If they already acknowledge their desires as wrong, shouldn’t we be helping them keep those desires in check, rather than push them further underground where if they feel like they have little support they may give in? I don’t know what the answers to these complicated questions are, and my blood pressure rises just thinking about it.

This has not been an easy post for me to write. I have attempted several times in the past few months, and just been unable to follow through.

Some part of me feels pity for those who recognize it as a horrendous desire, but can’t help having it. A large part of me feels blind rage, and I don’t care that they haven’t willingly chosen this desire. While my mind wants to figure out how to best control this problem or best address it, my heart wants nothing to do with this part of the human population. I face that struggle constantly throughout this interview. The interviewee was cordial and polite, but I had to make a conscious effort to not be rude. I had to keep reminding myself that this person had not committed a crime or harmed any children and did not intend to harm any either (or at least thats what I was told). It was so hard to keep that in mind because once someone admits an attraction to children, they are automatically abhorrent to me. Anyway, here is our conversation:

Jerry, 20, Denmark

(Irrelevant parts of the conversation have been edited out for better flow)

(The writing in grey is my commentary, not part of the interview)

Him: I can understand that it's a bit difficult to talk to pedophiles, but it's

great you are! :-)

Would you like my AoA (Age of Attraction)? Because there's quite a

big difference between being attracted to 12 year olds and 4 year olds for

example

Me: Yes, tell me the AoA, and I cringe, as i write that. But I need to know so I can better understand and formulate questions. Where are you from? How old are you?

Him: I'm from Denmark. My age is around 20, I rather not be too specific about my age.

Hehe, I often get that people feel sick talking to me, and I don't blame

them.

AoA is:

Boys: 4-12(ish) I can be attracted to 3 year olds or 13, but generally 4-12

Girls: 4-10(ish)

At this point I’m ready to punch a wall, and stop communicating with this guy. But I keep reminding myself, that I owe it to myself to try and understand this. So I take a few days, calm myself and continue the conversation.

Me: Hi,

So I have quite a few questions, and don't know where to start really. I am trying to work through conflicted feelings of speaking to you generally. I want to understand, but as you mentioned earlier, you get the sense that people feel sick speaking to you. I am feeling that way myself....especially since hearing the AoA...because that makes it real.

I keep telling myself its important to speak to you, because shutting off a person who recognizes that this desire is unethical, immoral is not productive. Especially if you want to reach out in general, to find support and help for controlling or suppressing your attraction....I feel that society needs to provide that support, so we may protect our children better. We truly could cause further issues by ignoring/shunning the people who want to be helped.

Him:

Hey,

Yeah, I tend to not mention my AoA that quickly, but since you had to

prepare your questions I felt it would be helpful. Normally I would just

hold off telling people, because people don't tend to think that a

pedophile is attracted to 4 year olds, but rather to 12 year olds.

"a person who recognizes that this desire is unethical, immoral"

I wouldn't say that my desire is immoral, but rather "acting" sexually on

my desire is immoral, and incredibly harmful.

Yeah, ignoring pedophiles and just generally making them feel worse about

themselves, does make them more likely to molest children, which is why we

don't ignore this important issue

——

Me: You identify as a 'non-offending pedophile'. And just typing that word gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. But I've also spoken to some people who say there is no such thing as a 'non-offending' pedophile.

What do you say to this? How can people like you ensure the rest of us that you are motivated to stay 'non-offending’?

Him: I think it's obvious that there are "non-offending" pedophiles.

Imagine, if you were unable to have a sexual relationship with anyone

without it hurting that person, would you end up raping people?

Of course you wouldn't, it's the same for me, I believe that children

can't consent, so having a sexual relationship with a child would be

raping the child.

You can also think more mathematically about it I guess: it's estimated

that 1-10% of the population are pedophiles, imagine if everyone of those

offended.

Me:When did you discover or realize you had an attraction to children?

Him: I know I was attracted to children when I was 10, but I didn't realize it

until I was about 13 years old. I believe I was born a pedophile, that my

brain is "hard-wired" to be a pedophile. (James Cantor's research suggests

that the brain is hard-wired to be sexually attracted to children)

Me: Do you remember an event or situation that made you recognize this?

Him: What made me realize that I was a pedophile was that all the other boys I

knew were talking more and more about adult women and their "nice mangos"

but I didn't, and still don't see what's attractive about boobs. So it was

a kinda slow realization, but when I was certain that I was a pedophile, I

didn't feel that great about myself. I searched for help on the internet

but struggled to find any real help.

Me: Have you had an official diagnosis? Have you spoken to a medical professional about this?

Him: I haven't had an official diagnosis, and I haven't talked to a medical

professional about my pedophilia either. This is mostly because of

mandated reporting, basically, if someone comes to a medical professional

and says they are attracted to children, the professional has to report it

to the police. If they don't, they have to hope the pedophile doesn't abuse

a child, or risk losing their job. So I would always advise not to seek any

help until there's actual (safe) help for pedophiles.

Me: Do you live with your parents? Does your family know about this?

Him: I live with my parents most of the time, they do not know I'm a pedophile,

no.

Me: Do you have any non-pedophile friends that you have felt comfortable sharing this information with?

Him: I haven't told any "non-pedophile" friends about my pedophilia, I've only

told people about my pedophilia anonymously, although I would love to

"come out of the closet" or as some say "come out of the toy box”

Again resisting the urge to vomit and stop all communication with this person. These light hearted colloquialisms are the hardest for me to get past.

Me:Is there a community of non-offending pedophiles where you live?

Him: There isn't a community, although I have thought about creating a

online community for non-offending pedophiles in my country.

There are some support groups online.

Me: What methods do you use to keep your desires under check.

Him: I don't have any methods, just because I'm a pedophile doesn't mean I

don't have self control, I have just as much self control as most people.

Me: Do you stay away from children?

Him: I used to stay away from children, but recently I've gotten more confident

in myself, so I don't actively try and stay away from children, and I

don't actively try and be around children.

Me: Do you work? What do you do?

Him: I work in a supermarket.

Me: Are you religious?

Him: I would say I'm an atheist, was however born in a very religious family. I

personally think very negatively of religions (Don't mean religious

people, but religions).

Me: Are you also attracted to adults? Have you been in a relationship with an adult?

Him: I'm not attracted to adults, no. I'm an exclusive pedophile, although many

non-exclusive pedophiles have relationships with adults, and some even

have children (who they never abuse)

I don’t really buy this at all.

Me: How is it to possess a characteristic you recognize is repulsive and immoral? That cannot be easy, to live with that truth every day. Do you have someone to talk to about this? This must cause some kind of depression or self-loathing.

Him: As said earlier I wouldn't say my attractions are immoral, but rather that "acting" sexually on my attractions is. It's quite... hard sometimes, especially if you put yourself in a position that I am, I get many threats, hate etc.

In the beginning it took a while to accept my feelings, but it got easier for me (with help from a few non-offending pedophiles) I still have some bad days, but those are mostly because of how society treats us, not because of my attractions.

I can't change my attractions, and I'm not even sure if I would want to if I could, because... my love for children isn't purely sexual, it's loving and emotional as well a sexual love. I want children to be happy. When I see a child that's crying, I actually feel sad for that child, and the same for when I see a child that's happy, I feel happy for that child.

No…just no.

Me: Do you have an active social life?

Him: I do have a active social life, got a couple of friends, and such, but none of them know that I'm a pedophile.

Me: Do you have a good relationship with your family?

Him: I have quite good relationships with my family, but I generally don't care about them, I often think about what they would think about me if they knew who I was. I am kinda forced to live as someone who I'm not, lying about my opinions and such, because I can't reveal that I'm a pedophile.

Me: Have you ever been a victim of childhood sexual abuse?

Him: Yes, I was a victim of childhood sexual abuse.

I can’t understand how someone could have gone through that themselves and still harbour desires that would put other children in the same position if acted on.

Me:What has motivated you to speak out about your situation on the internet, on Twitter? What is your end goal?

Him: What has motivated me is the hope that change is possible, that mainstream acceptance of pedophilia is possible, and I want to help make that a reality.

If you don't accept me, then at least accept the children who're going through this right now, realizing that they're pedophiles and having no one to turn to, no one to guide them through life as a pedophile. I naturally care very much about children, so please at least accept them.

So my end goal would be that pedophiles can come out as pedophiles and not fearing for their life, that pedophilia doesn't get confused with child molestation and that children don't have to suffer, simply because they were born with a sexual attraction towards children, in short: acceptance.

Me: How can you feel sexual attraction for someone who doesn't even understand what that is, Who doesn't have the maturity to reciprocate?

Him: How I can feel sexual attraction for someone who doesn't understand what it is...that's a hard question.

I think the way to see it is that ones sexuality/orientation/attractions (I frankly don't think it matters what it's called) doesn't have anything to do with if that person is mature, or able to consent.

I'm attracted to their bodies, the way they move, often their voice too. I'm also attracted to their childish personalities. So you could say it's exactly that that's attractive, their immaturity, their childish bodies, voice, personality etc.

If you dress a girl in really sexualized clothes, and lipsticks and just make her look really sexualized, I probably won't find that attractive. I call children cute most of the time, because I don't think sexy fits in with what I find attractive.

Thank you for actually being willing to listen, even though this is a very hard subject.

I can’t deal with this. It’s been one of the hardest posts I’ve ever written.

This description is the kind of thing that is just vile, I don’t even care if he has not offended…because just having these thoughts are possibly dangerous to the most innocent amongst us. I could not ‘accept’ a person that has these types of thoughts. I would want them to have support so they can control or suppress better, but I could never trust them to not offend. I could not socialize with or respect them, and I realize that people are not able to control who or what they are attracted to. But I can’t accept a person who thinks about the defenceless in a sexual manner. Acceptance is not a realistic goal in my opinion, better support may be however.

——

After dealing with the first round of responses, I decided to do a follow up interview, send some comments. Because I simply couldn’t leave it at that.

Me: Hi here are some follow up questions/comments:

"I wouldn't say that my desire is immoral, but rather "acting" sexually on

my desire is immoral, and incredibly harmful." -

I would have to disagree here because its the very thought of sex with someone so young who can't consent that makes it immoral... in my opinion, its like having fantasies about raping, but not actually acting on them. Which is better than acting on them, yes, of course..because no one in the real world is harmed. But the thought itself is incredibly disturbing...if I found out someone constantly fantasized about raping people, but didn't act on it, I would still be repulsed. But yes, it is not comparable to someone who would act on them. The ones who act deserve to be locked away from society where they can no longer cause harm.

"I believe that children can't consent, so having a sexual relationship with a child would be raping the child."

I am relieved to know we agree about this. But what disturbs me immensely, and what I can't get over, is that you basically have a *desire* to rape children, you just hold back on it. Again my heart sinks as I type this.

How are we to trust that non-offending pedophiles will remain non offending? Do you have any ideas or thoughts about this? On how society can not isolate them, and what ways better support could be provided to keep our children safer?

"I can't change my attractions, and I'm not even sure I would want to if I could"

The above statement baffles me, because wouldn't you want to have attractions to people with whom you can have meaningful, legal, reciprocal and moral sexual relationships? Why wouldn't you want to experience that? As it stands right now, you are destined for a sexually unfulfilled life, right? That sounds pretty lonely.

"I searched for help on the internet but struggled to find any real help."

I am sorry that this is the case, and that society has failed in this way. Do you have any recommendations, after having gone through this yourself in how society can provide help to those battling such conflicting feelings ? What can be done?

Do you have any children in your extended family, or friends that you are in regular contact with?

Is it hard to hide this aspect of who you are from your family/friends? Do you think your parents might try to get you help or react negatively?

"I would say I'm an atheist, was however born in a very religious family. I

personally think very negatively of religions (Don't mean religious

people, but religions)."

And because I know what religious apologists would say to this, I'm going to ask, do you think your atheism has influenced you in any way to think about things that are unethical such as being attracted to children? Their argument often is that religion serves as a moral guide, take it away and you're left with immoral beings. I disagree with that, of course. Being an atheist, one obviously does not lose the ability to experience what is moral or ethical and what isn't.

Do you think if you were religious, your behaviour or thoughts might be different?

In Islam, some people justify child marriage because it is said that the age of maturity is when one hits puberty. For some girls this could be as low as 8 - what are your thoughts on this? It is also said that Mohammed married a 6 year old, and consummated marriage at 9. The common excuses for this are that 'it was a different time' - but he was supposed to be a perfect example of morality for all times. - What are your thoughts on this?

Similarly in Catholicism we see that the Vatican tried to excuse away or cover up many incidents of children being molested by priests - Why do you think this happens in religion, time and time again.

What turned you away from religion? Is your family still religious?

"I still have some bad days, but those are mostly because of how society treats us"

But how can you blame people for feeling repulsed at the people who appear to be a threat to their children? You realize that its almost impossible for someone to know you are a non offending pedophile and also feel secure that you will not harm their children?

"I do have a active social life, got a couple of friends, and such, but none of them know that I'm a pedophile."

What happens when everyone talks about dating, sex, crushes etc? Do you avoid such conversations?

Have you been in a situation where someone your own age has flirted with you? If so, how have you responded?

"So my end goal would be that pedophiles can come out as pedophiles and not fearing for their life, that pedophilia doesn't get confused with child molestation and that children don't have to suffer, simply because they were born with a sexual attraction towards children, in short: acceptance."

I can see what you're saying, its important to provide help to those who need it, otherwise we endanger children even more. And certainly, no one should have to live fearing for their life. Justice should be left up to the law and due process, not mobs or civilians. But its so hard for me to be ok with the fact that pedophiles should be 'accepted' for who they are, because the very essence of who they are is a threat to innocent children. So personally, 'acceptance' is a strong word, but openness to helping those who express a desire to not act on this should increase.

I hear some people trying to describe pedophilia as an orientation. And in the past some pedophile organizations have tried to get people to 'accept' this as they now accept homosexuality. That angers me. Tremendously, because there is one major difference. And that is the presence of *consenting* *adults*. Every sexual situation should involve consenting adults. Trying to pass it off as just 'another orientation' does a disservice to those who have been wrongfully oppressed, maligned and misrepresented by society...just because they feel an attraction to the same sex.

Even if I accept that this is how you are wired, through no fault of your own. That this is your 'orientation' of sorts...I cannot accept it as ok. Every sex act you desire requires there to be rape. That's like saying a form of rape is your orientation. And when compared with orientations that cause no harm, it seems like its an inaccurate comparison. Can you see how this comparison if offensive, troubling and problematic?

If you are wired this way, we should get you help. But we can't compare pedophilia to those who were wrongfully treated as immoral in the past for being homosexual, do you agree?

Pedophilia is officially classified as a disorder, if im not mistaken. And I can see that, because it seems maybe somewhere along the line sexual maturity stops. It gets stuck in childhood, and perhaps attraction reflects that. Do you agree that it is a disorder?

If you had to take medication to suppress sexual desire, and had a doctor to help manage your 'pedophilia' to ensure you don't act on it, would you be open to that?

I noticed that you are using a public mail server to cover your internet tracks I presume.

You must have to take a lot of precautions, when discussing what is essentially a large part of who you are....right?

I am sorry you are a victim of childhood sexual abuse.

Was it someone you knew?

How old were you?

Was it one incident or several?

And I don't even want to know the answer to this, I'm shaking as I type it, but it's an important question to ask, and to try and reason with you on. What are your thoughts regarding child pornography? I think anyone consuming such things are complicit in the sexual abuse of children. Do you or have you ever?

If so, can you not see that this exploits children much in the same way you were abused as a child? Does that not make you feel empathy for the children?

Are you aroused by regular pictures of children in bathing suits, etc?

Just the thought of potential material for arousal of pedophiles in our regular every day ads, or packaging terrifies me, nauseates me.

Most importantly, how can you convince me and readers that you are committed to staying a 'non offending' Pedophile?

-----

Him:

Hey, took a while to answer, mainly because Sigaint logged me out without

saving a draft, when I had answered about half...

Also I think it would be good to clarify what a child is, normally when I

mention children I mean someone under 13ish years old.

"I would have to disagree here because its the very thought of sex with

someone so young who can't consent that makes it immoral... in my opinion,

its like having fantasies about raping, but not actually acting on them.

Which is better than acting on them, yes, of course..because no one in the

real world is harmed. But the thought itself is incredibly disturbing...if

I found out someone constantly fantasized about raping people, but didn't

act on it, I would still be repulsed. But yes, it is not comparable to

someone who would act on them. The ones who act deserve to be locked away

from society where they can no longer cause harm."

Fantasies don't have to "follow" the real world, in my fantasies children

can consent without being harmed. While my fantasies might be rape in the

real world, they're not in my fantasy.

It might be disturbing yes, but a lot of things are disturbing to

different people and not to other people.

"How are we to trust that non-offending pedophiles will remain non

offending? Do you have any ideas or thoughts about this? On how society can

not isolate them, and what ways better support could be provided to keep

our children safer?"

You shouldn't trust any stranger to be alone with your child, even if you

somehow knew that that stranger wasn't a pedophile. Most child molesters

aren't pedophiles, they're what they call situational offenders. About 80%

of child molesters are situational offenders (Not pedophiles) if I

remember correctly.

But that doesn't mean that pedophiles aren't more likely to offend.

We should make a distinction between pedophilia and child molesters, and

get more educated about the subject, so that it'll be safer for pedophiles

to come out of the closet (Or "the toybox")

We should provide professional support for those pedophiles who want it,

the law makes it very dangerous to seek professional support. I don't

think that support should only be helping to not offend, because not

everyone needs that, but also help to deal with society.

All this would actually help keep children safer, by having a society

where pedophiles don't have to be so isolated, and by providing

professional support will help keep children safe. Right now we nearly

only provide professional support AFTER someone has been hurt, we should

provide support before someone has been hurt.

"wouldn't you want to have attractions to people with whom you can have meaningful, legal, reciprocal and moral sexual relationships? Why wouldn't you want to experience that?

As it stands right now, you are destined for a sexually unfulfilled life, right? That sounds pretty lonely."

Yes, I'm going to have a sexually unfulfilled life, but life is more than sex ;-)

I wouldn't want to change my attractions because... love. I love children, not just sexually, but also emotional, genuine love. I can love children as a friend, or as a teacher. I can have great loving

friendly relationships with children, just no sex.

"I am sorry that this is the case, and that society has failed in this way.

Do you have any recommendations, after having gone through this yourself in

how society can provide help to those battling such conflicting feelings ?

What can be done?"

Be open, if you're a parent, make sure that your child knows that you'll

love him/her, and make sure your child knows that you as a parent wouldn't

judge them for being a pedophile.

I honestly don't know how a parent would or should handle finding out that their teenager is a self-professed pedophile. They should probably get some help, but would I blame the parents for feeling horrified? How can anyone accept that their child has a predatory sexual desire? How does one cope with finding this out?

I thought everyone would hate me as a pedophile, and I still think that

when it comes to "the real world" I still think all my friends are going

to hate me and judge me. I think the same about my parents.

Also not using pedophilia instead of child molesters on the internet would

make it alot easier to find help. Although I do like to believe that it

has become much easier to find something positive about pedophilia on the

internet today.

Obviously, I would disagree that there is anything 'positive' to be said about it.

"Do you have any children in your extended family, or friends that you are

in regular contact with?"

Yes.

This worries me immensely.

"Is it hard to hide this aspect of who you are from your family/friends? Do

you think your parents might try to get you help or react negatively?"

It's hard having to lie about a pretty big part of your personality, But

"If you had to take medication to suppress sexual desire, and had a doctor

to help manage your 'pedophilia' to ensure you don't act on it, would you

be open to that?"

No, I would not, because why should I? I'm in no way a danger to children.

"I noticed that you are using a public mail server to cover your internet

tracks I presume.You must have to take a lot of precautions, when discussing what is

essentially a large part of who you are....right?"

Yes, I would rather not have a rock thrown through my window, and getting

beaten by some vigilantes. So I do take a lot of precautions.

"I am sorry you are a victim of childhood sexual abuse.

Was it someone you know?

How old were you?

Was it one incident or several?"

It was someone in my near family, I was 10 years old, happened only once.

"What are your thoughts regarding child pornography? I think anyone

consuming such things are complicit in the sexual abuse of children. Do you

or have you ever?"

CP (child pornography) is an incredibly complicated topic.

I often make the mistake that I say that I think CP is wrong.

First, CP can be a 16 year old taking a photo of his genitals and sending it

via Snapchat.

But CP can also be video of a 7 year old getting molested.(Don't know any

as good way to explain this, so please don't throw up!)

I don't think that the 16 year old should be charged with producing CP,

nor should the ones seeing the Snap be charged with watching CP.

But the people involved with recording the video of the 7 year old should

be charged with producing CP, and people who watch that video should be

charged with watching CP.

The 16 year old wasn't harmed in anyway, while the 7 year old was.

So in the case of the 16 year old I don't think it's morally wrong, while

the 7 year old is morally wrong.

I understand the distinction, and I've heard of teenagers getting charged themselves with sharing 'explicit images of underage children', when they were sharing pictures of themselves with their teenage partner. I think that is ridiculous obviously, and all can't be lumped under the same umbrella of Child Porn. Sexting between two teenagers is entirely different from sexual abuse of a child.

But if a 16 year old is lured by a much older person on the internet and then sends a photo of himself, then I think he is harmed, and the person receiving the photo should be charged with taking advantage of a minor, and sexually exploiting him.

"Are you aroused by regular pictures of children in bathing suits, etc?

Yes. While I don't find every single child attractive, I do find

certain regular pictures of children arousing.

"Most importantly, how can you convince me and readers that you are

committed to staying a 'non offending' Pedophile?"

If I ever were to offend, I would tell the parents of the child what I've

done, give them enough money to pay for the help the child would need, and

then either turn my self in or... commit suicide.

But I'll never molest a child, I know that, because I know what damage

it'll do, and I don't want to hurt children, ever.

-------

This entire conversation has left me with a sinking feeling, unresolved questions, and torn feelings of sadness, pity and anger.

I do firmly believe some conversation needs to happen around this, rather than avoiding the subject...so we can protect children in a more effective way.

About Me

I'm a Pakistani-Canadian illustrator/blogger who writes and draws about sexuality in South Asia (mostly Pakistan), religion, politics, feminism, godlessness.
Follow me on twitter @nicemangos
oh and you can find me on facebook now too! :) facebook.com/eiynah.nicemangos
Support my work on Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/nicemangos