ATF Reveals The Number of Registered Machine Guns

Thanks to an addition slipped into to the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, guns with giggle switches are beyond the reach of most civilians. While ostensibly legal to own, thanks to FOPA’s Hughes amendment, there’s been a de facto ban on civilian transfer or ownership of full-auto guns made after 1986. Never mind that they’ve virtually never been used in the commission of a crime. Be that as it may, have you every wondered how many machine guns are in the ATF’s National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record data base? Thanks to Jeff Follodor of the National Firearms Act Trade and Collectors Association we now know . . .

Jeff sent the following email to TTAG Central Command:

Robert,
I see many writers on your site making statements about how many machine guns exist on the NFRTR. To be sure, lots of folks have speculated on the number since NFATCA obtained the transferable number ~10 years ago from then NFA Branch Chief, Ken Houchens, at Knob Creek. Back then, the transferable count was a little over 182,000.

For several years NFATCA has been “battling” DOJ/ATF for release of current numbers. After a rejection and several well-fought appeals we have the numbers. The total number on the books as of February 24, 2016 is just under a half million:

Machine guns in possession by the military and government agencies at all levels aren’t under NFA purview. However, there is the usual litany of paperwork for an agency to get ahold of them. They can’t just plunk down the agency AMEX and order a few new M4A1s and get them a week later. There’s the acquisition process, and for police departments, some other ATF layers in there too. Oddly enough if a PD wants select-fire weapons it takes them about as long as it would you or me to get them when it’s all said and done.

It’s gonna muck up their numbers if the government ever waltzes into having the military take offensive moves on the populous. I have always ventured that event as being the start of the single largest transfer of military grade weapons into the hands of the general population that the planet has ever seen.

He could also encourage a private party to take up a lawsuit against the Fed challenging the constitutionality (or other legal aspect) of the NFA, registry, closure of the registry, etc, then instruct his AG to not oppose the lawsuit. Without opposition the finding must be for the plaintiff, so that could effectively strike down all or part of the law.
This is the same total BS approach taken by the Obama admin regarding DOMA, and probably other laws.

Hey, Obama spent the last 7.5 years creating laws / re-writing existing laws via Imperial Decree. If he can alter the Obamacare legislation on his own, then a pro-gun President has grounds to alter the NFA on his own.

Easy. SAF files a lawsuit in the most gun friendly federa court in tx to over turn law. Cruz administration appoints Wayne Lapiere special counsel to defend the law to the court. :). She and lose just like the environmental groups do with the EPA.

“I wonder if Pres Cruz would open the registration up, even if only for 4 years?”

Question for you NFA folks here: Were the registry re-opened, what’s the quick-n-dirty way to go? File the paperwork and when the stamp comes back get a registered drop-in auto sear? Or buy a select-fire lower? Or?…

I’d probably go all 3 in terms of an AR15; a lightning link, drop in auto sear, and RR. I like options. Best I could figure though, a lightning link would be the easiest way for me to comply with CT law that requires machine gun be full auto only, anything select fire is considered an assault weapon (I know right!) and subject to

For someone who does not understand all the terms used can some one please explain?
I understand the Pre 86 both the others are greek to me.
◾Pre 86 (transferables): 175,977
◾Sales Samples (pre May keepers): 17,020
◾Restricted 922(o) (posties): 297,667

Sales samples are usually called “post samples” when offered up for sale. An SOT can possess these somewhat freely. The final class of Registered 922 (O) can be possessed by an SOT with a demo letter from Uncle Leo. Most of those are owned by various LE agencies.

Pre May sales samples are guns that were imported after the ’68 GCA, but were not registered to civilians before the May ’86 cut off, and imported to dealers as demonstration samples for LE or government agencies . The advantage to these guns is that an FFL can acquire the guns without a LE demo letter, i.e., the ‘love letter’, and also, after the FFL gives up their FFL, the former FFL owner can keep the gun. These Pre May sales samples can not be sold to a non FFL civilian. In general, Pre May sales samples are worth about 50% of a fully transferable.

‘Post Samples’ require an FFL and a LE demo to acquire. Once a dealer gives up their FFL, they must surrender the gun. This means that the ‘owner’ never really owns the gun, rather they are just renting it from the government. Post samples are MGs made after the ’86 cut off. In general, a post sample is worth 10% of a fully transferable, if even that much. Nowadays, unless you know a CLEO, it’s really hard to get a demo letter; and even if you know a CLEO personally, they may be reluctant to issue the demo letter, as ATF is cracking down on the demo ‘abuse’ (one example: Vaughn of autoweapons.com was found guilty recently on this issue). That’s why if you go to GB, you will rarely see a bid on a post sample.

Deal. Maybe it will drive the point home to not get rid of things that are basically irreplaceable. It wasn’t something like a 10/22.
What I sold for 3,500 back in the late ’80’s is now selling for over 20K.

So, seeing as the list is highly classified, and has never once been audited nor even subject to oversight by an impartial third party…why the hell should be believe this new number (different from all the others they’ve supplied Congress in the past) is real, and not merely an ass-pull to satisfy an ambivalent judge?

Sales Samples are MG’s imported after the Gun Control Act of 1968 that banned imported MG’s for civilian sale. All imported guns that were made MG’s after 1968 were done by domestic users not factories overseas. They can be only obtained by FFL Dealers with a Class 3 license. They may keep them even after they choose to give up their FFL but only may sell their gun to other Class 3 FFL’s. A sort of special club/privilege for Class 3 FFL’s so to speak.

Restricted Posties are MG’s made after the 1986 cutoff only obtainable by Class 3 dealers with LE Demo letters. They can only be sold to government agencies. When a Class 3 dealer gives up his license he cannot keep his post sample MG’s. They must be sold to other dealers with the same designation, cut up, or surrendered to the BATFE.

A Congressperson or a Senator would have to introduce a Bill to repeal the Hughes amendment.
It would have to pass committee and the Full House, be sent to the Senate for consideration where it would be assigned to another committee and if passed then go to the Full Senate. If the Senate has a similar Bill, the the two bills would have to be reconciled, differences worked out and go through the whole process again. If it gets approved by both the House and the Senate, then it gets sent to the President to Sign or Veto.

The simpler and better answer IMHO is to appoint more originalists to the SCOTUS. Then order the AG to sue to have the whole shebang removed by the roots. “Shall Not Infringe” should be simple enough to understand even for politicians. It means hands off guns period.

Or, someone could attach it to another bill already under consideration, much the way the Hughes Amendment was originally passed.

The EO idea is poor. Just because one guy we don’t like abused Executive Privilege does not mean someone we do like should do the same. Obamacare was passed through reconciliation, which meant that a 60% majority of the Senate was not necessary to pass it. A contentious issue that squeaked by entirely on the votes of a single party, and only because of some trick intended to make cutting the budget easier.

Be careful what implements you devise, because you never know who will use them.

The Hughes amendment prohibits the sale or transfer of a machine gun to “any person.” All it would take is a reinterpretation to say that that the Hughes amendment only applies to individuals, not trusts or corporations.

Somewhere I ran across all the NFA stuff broken down by type and State.
Silencers, MGs, SBRs, SBSs.
Can’t find it again, but I do remember that we here in SC have 8,000 something registered MGs and over 23,000 suppressors. (I have one.)

Many MGs that were registered after 1934, the date of enactment of the National Firearms Act requiring registration of MGs and various other “dangerous” weapons, are now in limbo because Treasury lost the registrations. Many registered MGs cannot be transferred out of the name of dead registrant’s and remain in limbo. Registration information is confidential due to the transfer tax, and ATF will not reveal the names of registrants except to the current registrant. If he is dead, or he gave his MG away years ago to a friend, relative, etc ATF will not give out the name of the registrant or if it is actually in the NFRTR, the registry, if the MG shows up. The are other missing MGs as well that are eligible to be possessed by private individuals. So, the list of “registered” MGs is not accurate due to many lost registrations. Quite a few MGs are actually LEO/gov’t restricted despite having been transferred to an individual by mistake. You get the idea…….

1. We should cut down the number of Class-3 & 4 Mfrs numbers way down too! Most of are smaller mfrs too! We should allow 5 main Mfrs only to exist in the U.S.A too! Reason is We should have better controls: on the number of Dis-strive Class-3 Licensees Is (09) N.F.A Gun Rules do Apply too!! Retailers Full auto Weapons Medium Size Guns only is Maxi um Limit of the Guns only too! The Class-4,(04) is Master License Military Guns only too! is For large Machine Guns For Military only too! Agree!!! The Import & Export Licenses :Are (08) is N.F.A. Rules ))& (011) is N.F.A. Rules do apply too! Mfrs Licenses is : Ammo Mfrs is (06) F.F.L.s too! The Gun Mfrs is f.F.L.s is (07)Regular Gun Mfrs.And the N.F.A.Gun Rules for Mfrs is (010) only too.P.S.N.F.A Gun Rules Regulations F.F.L.s is (08) (09)(011)(010) & (04) F.F.L.s only too! We need to get S tricked on those Careless Bad Gun Dealers Not Getting those Licensees Too! Let”s Make it Harder to Apply For those Applications to Get it too! To Progresses it is a lot harder to get it too ! Do you Agree? Or Disagree? Sir Or Mam??/ This is complaint Roeg Gun Dealers doing bad Business too! Do you Agree / ? Or Disagree Sir Or Mam?? Thank you!

1. They should issued one permit Application to applicant too. is one application only too! For 6 month period Person is purchase it too. Is Full auto Gun Item only too!. only one Gun item only too! Not 2 Or # too! Just one item Gun Full auto Weapon only with that permit too! Agree! Do you agree!? This safe way of doing the legal way too!