Fate/Apocrypha – 16

Here we go — it’s time for the plot to slow down once again as we build up to the next climax.

General Impressions

I’m not sure how to feel about this week’s episode. Yes, I understand that we once again got another episode devoted to setting things up for the future. But even though I understand what happened, it doesn’t make me any less disappointed. More on that later though, since there was one part of the episode that really piqued my interest.

And that point my friends, was Jack the Ripper herself. Looking back at it, I don’t think I ever took the time to think about just why this little murder child existed. Besides being another rouge servant that didn’t play along with the established Red versus Black paradigm, I figured Jack and her “mother” were playing the chaotic neutral card and just doing whatever they wanted to do. A thought that when I look back was pretty dumb since for the most part, Heroic Spirits or Legends end up participating in the Holy Grail War for the specific purpose of having a wish granted. And when you think about the whole fact that you usually have to defeat all the servants before the Holy Grail will do anything (I’m not sure how it works in Apocrypha since some players have spoken about a second war that would have to be waged after one faction was defeated), Jack’s strategy becomes quite astute. Not necessarily because it’s a simple plan of action that anyone patient enough could execute, but specifically because she and her Master thus far have been able to do it. That and I loved how someone realized that Yggdmillennia was on the ropes and if there was a time to strike, right now would be it.

Glaring praise of Jack aside, let’s go back to the situation between Jeanne and Sieg that the story won’t stop trying to force down our throats (I feel like the comments are slowly beginning to affect me). Now, before anyone accuses me of siding with anyone, I don’t care whether or not the two end up together. This is a Fate show and happy endings are far and few in-between. What irks me the most about all of this is just how empty the relationship between the two are. Or rather, how empty Jeanne’s feelings for Sieg “feels”. I think it’s painfully obvious that Sieg doesn’t see Jeanne in a romantic light and who could blame him? There hasn’t been much going on in the romance department and I’m waiting for the two to share some kind of meaningful conversation.

Anyways, let me close this post out before it gets any longer. With the story building up toward the next big battle with Assassin, I can’t wait for another opportunity for team Yggdmillennia x Mordred x Ruler to do their thing again. Until then I guess I’ll patiently wait and watch as the story does its thing. Catch you guys next week!

P.S. Gotta hand it to the writers for not forgetting about Gordes. I can’t help but love that he’s getting a second chance to redeem himself.

I never understood why they are a thing when they’ve haven’t really done much together. On the other hand, Astolfo and Sieg have built a strong relationship to one another and has one of the best Master and Servant relationship of the franchise.

Jeanne is the cute girl in the next class over that thinks Sieg is cool and hot without knowing him so she forces her way into his life, while Astolfo is the devoted childhood friend that wants Sieg to be happy above all else, even without him/her. Seen it a million times in anime, we all know who always wins, it’s just even more ridiculous than usual because of the whole part where they’re, you know, friggen mythological heroes!

In terms of Sieg and Jeanne, from what I’ve read online, it’s actually more Leticia that’s crushing on Sieg rather than Jeanne herself. It’s just that Leticia’s own emotions and feelings can sometimes end up surfacing through Jeanne given it’s still Leticia’s own body being possessed (with Leticia’s consent) by Jeanne’s spirit. This is why Jeanne can sometimes seem neutral towards Sieg one moment (simply keeping a promise), but then start seeming more schoolgirl-like with a crush in another (and also why we get that inner conversation between them early on).

Dunno if there’s a “feelings start mixing together” thing going or what though.

In terms of Sieg and Jeanne, from what I’ve read online, it’s actually more Leticia that’s crushing on Sieg rather than Jeanne herself.

This occurred only in the first volumes. I only hope you are aware that this is just butthurt/headcanon/fanwank/fanfiction made by delusional fgofags. They just can’t handle the idea that his waifu has been stolen from them and that she can’t pair with his pathetic self-insert male/female protagonists of the cancer mobage about ”Waifu/Yuri pandering” called F/GO, because Sieg and Jeanne are one of the Type-Monn cannon couples like Shirou and Artoria, Shirou, Sakura, Shirou and Rin, and Apocrypha was made before F/GO.

It’s just that Leticia’s own emotions and feelings can sometimes end up surfacing through Jeanne given it’s still Leticia’s own body being possessed (with Leticia’s consent) by Jeanne’s spirit.

Leticia is just a plot device used to develop the Jeanne’s feelings for Sieg.

This is why Jeanne can sometimes seem neutral towards Sieg one moment (simply keeping a promise),

The promises of Jesus to Siegfried doesn’t exist in the light novel, that’s anime-original content. Jeanne was not even present when Siegfried sacrificed Himself to save Sieg or when Sieg takes up the name “Sieg” in honor of his friend (Astolfo was present at the scene, in the anime they have replaced Astolfo with Jeanne). Check the manga (chapters 15 and 16) is faithful to the source material.

but then start seeming more schoolgirl-like with a crush in another (and also why we get that inner conversation between them early on).

Dunno if there’s a “feelings start mixing together” thing going or what though.
Jeanne’s character stereotype is kuudere and she is quite dense and dumb when it comes to relationships.

The sad thing is they really would have been better if they had the guts to have the Astolfo win, their interactions and chemistry with the main character flows naturally. Unlike the whole thing with Jeanne which just feels forced.

I mean people can look however they want and particularly anime characters have always had eccentric costuming, doesn’t mean anything to do with their sexuality. but also, achilles is SUPER gay dude lmao. ever heard of patroclus?

@bonbonsrus You’re wrong. What a heterosexual individual is sexually attracted to are to the chromosomes of the other person, but the looks. If a man looks very feminine it is perfectly normal to pop a boner, just as it is perfectly normal to not be attracted to a very masculine woman.

it wouldn’t be helpful, because Jack did a magical cycle around the city and the Castle so that the Masters couldn’t call his Servents back.
Jack waited until the Servents walked away from the Castle to attack Fiore.
Pay attention when Astolfo, Chiron and Jeanne arrived in the city, the scene was cut for a guy’s scene with a magical cycle on his side, this magical cycle has symbol of Jack’s Command Spells, he warns Jack that the servents were in the city.

The fact that Jack the Ripper is the next target, which signals a death flag, doesn’t surprise me. In many anime/manga, I can see that the “mother and daughter” is a popular trope where tragic death occurs.
Examples with a tragic occurrence that involves a mother and child.Show Spoiler ▼

Tokyo Ghoul and Akame Ga Kiru manga

Enlighten me if anyone knows any more. These are the only examples I know.

Honestly, I think they just put that there because they did it with FSN(MC and blonde girl are shipped together) and I find Astolfo relationship with Sieg actually have something for it rather comradery/friendship/one-sided romance.

I also like the brief “mother/daughter” moments seen with Jack and her master and find it pretty cute despite how insane it is overall.

That’s funny that you mention the F/SN romance; I think you’re absolutely right and (along with most people here) that there’s no chemistry with Jeanne and Sieg, and it’s probably BECAUSE they’re like lesser versions of Shirou and Saber. Sieg has 1/10th the personality and humour (and I’m not saying Shirou is always the greatest lead either lmao) and Jeanne has none of Saber’s struggle and character development.

Astolfo on the other hand has personality enough for everyone („ᵕᴗᵕ„) because Astolfo is perfect and selfless and the best („ᵕᴗᵕ„)

To be honest, Shirou has the worst kinds of tropes and clichés that can be found in virtually every self-insert beta harem MCs that are Gynophobia, blush and multiples love interests wanting your dick (Sakura, Rin, Sabe, Illya and Maeda), Shirou also has a blonde waifu as his Servent.

has 1/10th the personality and humou

I’m sorry, but this type of comparison doesn’t make any sense, because the history of Sieg begun to be counted from the ”Zero” when he was still a new-born homunculus. While the history of Shirou begun to be counted from the point where Shirou was already a high school student full of friends and at this point he had already learned a lot about life, world and people through his friends and Kiritsugu.
If the story of Shirou had begun to be counted from the point where Kiritsugu saved him for the fire, completely empty without any knowledge of why he was alive and he should do with his life, Shirou would have been equal to Sieg.

@sizzlin_chiken, I didn’t mean to imply I don’t like Sieg at all, because I do compared to most people watching the show. And I’m not a fan of the way Shirou is a VN protagonist in that way. But by virtue of less storybuilding around Sieg than Shirou and the homonculus thing (which I don’t blame Sieg for as he IS practically a newborn), he has less complexity and depth in his heroic mission. As does Jeanne. So if we compare to Saber and Shirou and the depth of storybuilding/complexity around their respective and collective narratives, both Jeanne and Sieg are a little shallower (even though I think they’re both fine as characters in their own right) which means their romance feels kind of shallow too. In my opinion!

the worst kinds of tropes and clichés that can be found in virtually every self-insert beta harem MCs that are Gynophobia, blush and multiples love interests wanting your dick

I really don’t like characters with the above mentioned characteristics.

@kyaeos

As does Jeanne.

Apocrypha Jeanne still is character better than FGO Jeanne, because in FGO Jeanne is literally just a yuri/waifu/fanservice pandering character. FGO is assassinating her character with fanservice, yuri and yuri/waifu panderig.
Jesus Christ, a Saint like Jeanne being thrown into fanservice, yuri and yuri/waifu panderig as in F/GO is stupid because it goes entirely against the story the character is supposed to be based on, besides being literally a disrespect of the Catholic Church and God, and clearly demonstrates how much this mobage trash about waifu is cancer.

Jeanne, because in FGO Jeanne is literally just a yuri/waifu/fanservice pandering character. FGO is assassinating her character with fanservice, yuri and yuri/waifu panderig.
Jesus Christ, a Saint like Jeanne being thrown into fanservice, yuri and yuri/waifu panderig as in F/GO is stupid because it goes entirely against the story the character is supposed to be based on, besides being literally a disrespect of the Catholic Church and God, and clearly demonstrates how much this mobage trash about waifu is cancer.

Fate was never good.
It was always a pretentious ero-VN for fedoras who thought they played/watched some deep shit when reality is that it just turned history characters into shit tier waifus and currently into shit tier yuri/CGDCT waifus.

Fate was always the EOP VN equivalent of a typical ecchi battle harem. Decent, but massively and obnoxiously overrated, with an extremely loud and ignorant fanbase that considers it the best thing in the world.

Then FGO came and literally ruined and destroyed the franchise with modern cancer, apart from bringing with him a huge legion of degenerate obnoxious tertiary fans.

Primaries: Let’s learn the secret of magic and get to the Root!Secondaries: Let’s watch a bunch of overly cliched shounen stereotypical heroes fight each other in random pointless battles!
Tertiaries: Let’s summon a bunch of waifus and make a harem or a yuri harem!

I honestly don’t get this whole thread of comments. I’m not one of those people that just say “If you don’t like it don’t comment”, but seriously, it seems like all of you just derive no joy from the Fate series in general (don’t kid yourselves). Like honestly this just seems like petty first-world complaints that are blown out of proportion. Its just amusing that you guys are just throwing around the whole reddit-fedora thing on anyone who doesn’t fall within your qualifications of a fan. But this is exactly the kind of stuff that pretentious fedora-wearing redditers do. IDK, you claim to dislick the franchise but seem to care enough to have all of this internet warrior hate. Honestly, the Type of Fate you all envision would have just gotten stagnant. While things have grown (or in other cases devolved) with this franchise, its all part of growing. Things need to step out of its box and do something new to garner a wider demographic if it hopes surviving.

IDK, lately these Apocrypha comments have been sorted into 2 categories:
People who want to talk about Seig x Astolfo
People who want to shit on the entire fanbase and hold onto a singular title that they revere as the holy grail as everythimg else that came out after that is utter dog crap.

Straight up becoming a chore just to read these things when both sides are being so one-track minded.

The Catholic Saints should not be used as as yuri/waifu pandering characters, masturbation material and fanservice like ”Saint Jeanne d’Arc” and ”Saint Martha of Bethany”, or as relief comic characters like Saint George of Lydda.

When Pope John Paul II calls blasphemy against the Saints t an “eternal sin,” it means a sin that God will not forgive to all eternity.

@WSDFGS Because it’s an extremely rare occurrence.
If my memory serves me right, this is the first time we have had the MC’s servant that is also one of the MC’s love interests of the same sex as the MC for an Type-Moon anime adaptation.

Man, being killed by Jack The Ripper must be the most horrible way to die ever! Just look up what that monster did in White Chapel, no wonder the british police though they were dealing with a monster, they were right on the money.

P.S.: that skill that erases memories of her apearence must be connected to the fact the Reaper was never caught and became the biggest mistery of crime history.

In this timeline the Grail was not contaminated but its system have been clearly modify to a degree, I guess that´s the reason Jack was summoned. Remember the Grail is not perfect for any means, mess with it a little and you get horrible results like the Fuyuki Fire in the Third War and the Corruption, also the fact Amakusa Shiro Tokisada even exist!.

Our chuuni priest touched the Grail in Third War and he has obtained permanently the Ruler’s body which should be used by the Servant summoned as Ruler in the wars following the Third Holy Grail War. That’s why Jeanne had to use Laeticia’s body.

17.Träumerei
Jack the Ripper, the Assassin of Black, assaulted Castle Millennia.
Although she tries to attack Fiore, people like Sieg running to fight against her and she runs away again.
Sieg and Jeanne d’Arc goes to a city, Trifas to lure out of Jack the Ripper as a bait.
Sieg heads down to a city for the first time, and looking at a lot of people lets him be becoming aware of a thought formed in mind.
But a fog is approaching Trifas silently.

When it comes to romance, I don’t think there’s any. The closest potential was between Caules and Fran. The other close relationships seem more like siblings or parent and child. I’d categorize Jeanne and Sieg as siblings, with Jeanne being the over protective older sister.

Jack took the one she was normally using, but from the way it looked, Fiore took one that was hanging on the wall nearby; probably a prototype or earlier model as it only had two legs, but no arms like the one she used before, hence she could only use it to try to escape, but not fight.

Muh literally Hitler is “useful” because writers for this abomination can`t manage believable characterization if their life depended on it. So they had to hitlerize him right to the ridiculous level and play off that to create some form of penance later. Would have been much better if he stayed Hitler and was fixing up homunculi for strictly pragmatic reasons.

When will useless stooge of an mc fuck the blonde bitch already and move on to muh heroic sacrifice in name of some passionately delivered bullshit? I want to see her tears, it`s the only thing that makes my penis bigger these days.

Why is obtaining the physical grail so important again?
Isn’t it just a meaningless artifact until you actually finish the holy grail war?
What benefit does having the grail in your possession bring to you?

I don’t think the Apocrypha Grail is the same as the original Fuyuki Grail anyway.
In the original Fuyuki War the majority of the entrants didn’t even know what the Grail really was or what it was actually for, the whole War was effectively a massive con set up by the three families and Zelretch in order to achieve Heaven’s Feel, the whole wish granting thing was used as a lure to bait in heroic spirits as massive mana batteries and chumps capable of being their temporary tethers.

Same exact Grail relocated in another place, it’s just that a lot of info leaked out to third parties in the process.

Also the Grail can be used as far four or five Servants are killed, it’s just that it works better with more. You have to add that the Grail wasn’t completed in the Third War, so it probably has energy left too.

And the Grail certainly grants wishes because it’s an actual wish granting machine that works like the Einzbern’s magical trait on steroids as explained in HA. It’s a bait to lure sacrifices yeah, but it’s one that works.

I’ve wondered if there’s any real evidence for that. Maybe it works in theory, but whose wish was ever successfully granted? It was botched in the Third, Fourth and Fifth Fuyuki Wars and the First didn’t even run properly.

In theory it works and you can see in Apocrypha it was going to work if not for the hijack that happens at the end. Also what happens in HA is basically a minor Grail wish. In the Third War it was never used, the Lesser Grail was destroyed, and in the Fourth and Fifth it was functioning fine it was just corrupted to result in destructive wishes.

So basically you don’t have to “complete” the ritual and you can just start making low power wishes prematurely if you have the grail?
Does the wish granting miracle require the requester to be physically in close vicinity of the grail?
Wasn’t the grail supposed to have some level of intelligence of its own, given how it chooses the participants, etc.?

Does the wish granting miracle require the requester to be physically in close vicinity of the grail?

You need to touch it. The whole point of the Einzbern’s magical trait is that it can bypass the whole magecraft formula process altogether and recreate miracles if you have enough magical energy.

Wasn’t the grail supposed to have some level of intelligence of its own, given how it chooses the participants, etc.?

There is a Q&A answer for that.

Q: Is the will of the Greater Grail, which selects Masters, the same will of Justeaze who was offered as a sacrifice for the ritual that created it? Or does the Greater Grail lack any kind of volition?A: The Greater Grail does not have a will. Justeaze’s soul was completely sublimated.

So no, it doesn’t have a will or intelligence, it’s just a machine. Once you add Angra it’s when it starts to do weird stuff.

We all know Astolfo is male. It’s just a long-running joke because, with most other traps in anime, there’s usually SOME amount of belief in them being male because there’s usually a balance between the masculinity and femininity with their androgyny. However, Astolfo just looks, sounds, and acts so overall feminine, but with so little to suggest he is otherwise male outside of his official character descriptions specifically saying he is.

So if you showed someone an image of Hideyoshi from Baka to Test (and they never saw it before), that person could mistake him for a girl, but once corrected and given another, closer look, chances are that person would nod and be able to see Hideyoshi as a boy.

But show them an image of Astolfo (and never saw anything involving him before) and not only would that person more than likely mistake him for a girl, but even if you told them that Astolfo was actually male and give them a second look, chances are that person would not believe you.

Wow, so much hate for FGO XD….kind of pathetic in a sense. Because I really don’t get all this “Yuri” pandering some people are throwing out here. There’s “pandering” of course, but I really fail how to see there’s enough yuri stuff to just say fate go is trash all because of something that isn’t there. At most was just the Jeanne Alter x Bry ship that formed during that one event. Plus people tend to forget that a lot of the characters in the Fate Series are bisexual by default. That’s where your “Yuri” comes from. Though its mainstream Japan so they’ll of course only show the female aspect of it rather than the male, which is dumb.

The Catholic Saints should not be used as as yuri/waifu pandering characters, masturbation material and fanservice like ”Saint Jeanne d’Arc” and ”Saint Martha of Bethany”, or as relief comic characters like Saint George of Lydda.

When Pope John Paul II calls blasphemy against the Saints t an “eternal sin,” it means a sin that God will not forgive to all eternity.