I never said I won't taste it, but I won't invest in it. I'll be more than glad to take you up on your offer

Yossie,

Indeed, I was referring to the '05, which was highly touted in its day. The odd thing is that at the time no one openly belittled it, but now everyone says "oh the '05 wasn't all that good, but the '08 is spectacular". I'm convinced that those same people in two years from now will be peddling the '10 and denigrating the '08.

Stacey,

Without putting any winemakers on the spot, let me say that I've spoken to the staff of many wineries including those that produce Pinot and they have admitted to me that it is done as a challenge and not because they think that the Israeli climate is capable of producing excellent Pinot.

Pinches - I wouldn't have thought that you'd be one to "invest" in any wine that you haven't tried first. So there you are in the proverbial "backseat" debating the legitimacy of a wine that you haven't tried, with a bunch of people, even some quite as exacting as you, who have tried this wine and loved it. In this context, I'm not feeling so persuaded by your arguments.

To make this discussion both more interesting and useful, can I invite you to taste this wine with me one day soon? I'll bet that I can arrange to obtain a bottle for some of us? Offer is open to others, too.

I personally tried this wine recently and thought it was pretty ok. It was in the context of a crowded tasting, and i didn't come back to it, so I don't think that I gave it the proper attention. So I'm due to give it some one-on-one time.

I never recommended the 2005 and haven't changed my mind about it and stand by my recommendations. Ping me when the 2010 is released if I change my mind. You haven't tasted the Ella 2008 or the Gvaot 2010 and I am confused by your disappointment in Israeli winemakers continuing to try experiment with all varietals...

Yossie Horwitz wrote:... and I am confused by your disappointment in Israeli winemakers continuing to try experiment with all varietals...

Yossie,

I never said what's included in your quote. What I did say is that Israeli winemakers should spend their time experimenting with varieties that have a good chance of distinguishing themselves in the local terroir, rather than expend their energy on Pinot Noir, a variety on which the consensus is that the Israeli climate is not well suited for it. The effort to produce Pinot Noir in Israel is a herculean challenge not justified by the results. You and the others commenting seem to suggest that based on your estimation of the Gvaot '10, Israeli wineries should continue to produce Pinot Noir, and the heck with conventional wisdom and the accumulated wisdom of so many other winemakers. I strongly disagree, and a single data point won't change that. But hey, so far I've gotten three offers to taste this wine for free. I'll take that.

Adam M wrote:Pinches - I wouldn't have thought that you'd be one to "invest" in any wine that you haven't tried first. So there you are in the proverbial "backseat" debating the legitimacy of a wine that you haven't tried, with a bunch of people, even some quite as exacting as you, who have tried this wine and loved it. In this context, I'm not feeling so persuaded by your arguments.

Adam,

I've been very upfront about the fact that I have not tasted this wine. And when I speak of investment, it is not just monetary, but also the time involved. I focus my expirements and time on those areas in which I intuitively believe will be good, and if they don't work out I turn elsewhere. I've sampled some Israeli Pinot, and I have no plans to keep on sampling them ad infinitum. I've already reached my conclusion, and so far nothing has happenned to make me question it, requiring me to reaffrim that conclusion. If anything, the weather of the last few years, has strengthened my conviction that the Israeli climate cannot grow Pinot Noir successfully.

But when we meet, of course I'd like to taste it. However, after everything I've written, you'd be foolish to expect me to speak honestly.

I do laugh at how hard you are all trying to play nicely, but it still feels a bito heted for me. Personally, if he man does not want to like a wine or varietal based on principal and belief in what can be produced from it, let him have his opinion and move on.

Personally, I liked it and I share your opinion that Israel is not acclimated for Pinot noir, but to be honest, it is a load of crap. Napa valley has much of the same heat and environmental issues that israeli wineries face. Still, napa valley continues to produce world renowned pinots.

Sure, it is easier in a cooler climate, i get that, but hat does not mean, that it should not be sone, if the cimate is tempramental.

Napa works for cab and it's Pinot and so do other warm climate locations. What it mean is that if the potential is there nd the desire to make it work, it can be done. What it takes is the know how and the ability to learn your vineyard.

Of course, Tzora does not think his way. They think, plant what works in the vineyard with as little meddiling as is possible. So, they do not plant Pinot, for a single varietal, I get that. Different strokes for different folks. All I am saying is that if we always stuck with the obvious and easy, we may well be sending this via snail mail by horse

Sorry for joining this discussion so late, becasue I have nothing about Gvaot Pinot. But I do take issue with David's comments about Napa. Napa does both renowned Cab and Pinot only because Napa spans region 1 through region 3, depending upon area. The areas which grow great Pinot typically do not grow great Cab, and vice versa. Carneros, closest to San Pablo Bay, is the coolest area, and the Pinot is typically grown there, one of the cooler wine growing areas of California. To my knowledge, none of the Israeli regions is comparable in heat summation. Although good Pinot can successfully be grown as far north as Yountville, It's still typically too cold there for consistently successful Cab.

Craig Winchell wrote:Sorry for joining this discussion so late, becasue I have nothing about Gvaot Pinot. But I do take issue with David's comments about Napa. Napa does both renowned Cab and Pinot only because Napa spans region 1 through region 3, depending upon area. The areas which grow great Pinot typically do not grow great Cab, and vice versa. Carneros, closest to San Pablo Bay, is the coolest area, and the Pinot is typically grown there, one of the cooler wine growing areas of California. To my knowledge, none of the Israeli regions is comparable in heat summation. Although good Pinot can successfully be grown as far north as Yountville, It's still typically too cold there for consistently successful Cab.

I am not sure where Gvaot grows their grapes, but I lived in the area of northern shomron for 14 monthes, it gets COLD there and snows too From Tura's website (they are near gvaot) http://www.turawinery.com/114632/The-Vinyards

Deeply connected to the roots of the Hebrew nation, Erez and Vered work hard to bring high quality fruit out of the soil.

The first vineyards were planted on Mt. Bracha in 1997. At the first stage, the couple planted some 20 dunams (5 acres) of wine grapes. In 2007, the two planted an additional 30 dunams (7.5 acres), and in the summer of 2009, another 100 dunams (25 acres) were planted. The vineyard now consists of some 150 dunams (37.5 acres) of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Shiraz, Petit Verdot, Pinot Noir and Chardonnay grapes.

The vineyards enjoy a unique / special and rare terroir and optimal growth conditions. These conditions stem from the vineyard's location at an elevation of 850 meters (2790 feet) on a mountainside totally exposed to the westerly winds. In addition, the fog that envelops the vineyard till the late morning hours and the weather there, 16°C during summer nights with 98% humidity, and -4°C and snowy in winter, have come together with the rocky terra rosa soil to give the grapes their exceptional quality which became a byword in the area and throughout Israel.

Elchonon Hellinger wrote:I dont see Tura having made pinot noir ? going to ask them now.. also kinor dovid in hebron makes a cabarnet pinot noir

Indeed, to the best of my knowledge there is and was not a Tura Pinot. They made a Chardonnay which while not as difficult to grow as PN originates also from Burgundy and needs the cool climate to thrive. Yet it was IMHO not their most successful run. I've tasted the Kinor Dovid Cabernet-PN a few months ago and it was a bit strange. It smelled like the port and also tasted like the port but dry! And I loved the port because it was sweet... Livni in Kiryat Arba made one of my favorite wines with their Pinot '09. Truly unique and not to the liking of everybody but such is life. I've recently opened a bottle of the 2010 Pinot but unfortunately it was badly corked and oxidized so I'll have to give it another shot.

Elchonon Hellinger wrote:I dont see Tura having made pinot noir ? going to ask them now.. also kinor dovid in hebron makes a cabarnet pinot noir

Indeed, to the best of my knowledge there is and was not a Tura Pinot. They made a Chardonnay which while not as difficult to grow as PN originates also from Burgundy and needs the cool climate to thrive. Yet it was IMHO not their most successful run. I've tasted the Kinor Dovid Cabernet-PN a few months ago and it was a bit strange. It smelled like the port and also tasted like the port but dry! And I loved the port because it was sweet... Livni in Kiryat Arba made one of my favorite wines with their Pinot '09. Truly unique and not to the liking of everybody but such is life. I've recently opened a bottle of the 2010 Pinot but unfortunately it was badly corked and oxidized so I'll have to give it another shot.

Kinor david port, the stuff of legends... wars have been fought over it.. well close lol I miss David Edri.. his winery is a 2 min walk from my apartment there

If anyone is looking for this incredible wine, I spotted several bottles at Eber's in Crown Heights. I was very tempted to buy them all, but I already have 17 Please someone grab them before my self-restraint falls by the way side!