Something tells me you were beginning to doubt, and now you're trying to shut that out. Don't. If your god is real, then he should be able to stand up to doubt.

No I wasn't. Just not falling for it. And yes, GOD is able to stand up to doubt.

Temptation is not sin. It was their choice to believe the lie and doubt GOD. The serpent twisted the truth. he told them that of which they already knew. That the tree was for the knowledge of good and evil. GOD had already told them this but commanded them not to eat. But they did not know what evil was. The serpent said they would know good and evil if they ate. Becoming like GOD. And they would not die, in which they did. She thought the fruit was pleasing because of the temptation. And likened it to wisdom because she knew GOD. She wanted to become wise like GOD. But wisdom is of GOD. The knowledge of good and evil was not wisdom. They were already living in GODS wisdom. They already had everything they ever needed in GOD.

Not to mention. GOD gave them the choice. Because the tree of life was in the garden. They could have ate of it but they didn't. GOD already said they could have ate of it. He did not keep it from them at first but said they could eat of any tree in the garden but not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I seriously believe though that GOD knew what was going to happen before it ever happened though. In a good way. Meaning He wouldn't have done it or allowed it, if not for a good and greater purpose. GOD is good and I believe all will eventually come to know this.

But nearly all of you have read and believe the lie of the serpent. You think he was telling the truth when having read Genesis. Can any of you recognize this...? Can you really not see this...? Yet you keep falling for it...?

And GOD through His mercy and grace, His love for you has provided Salvation through Jesus Christ.

You reject Him w/o even having ever known Him because of a lie. We came after the fall. And the underlying truth is hidden within the story of Genesis. And if you did, you would know that He is not as you falsely claim him to be. W/o even knowing Him.

No I wasn't. Just not falling for it. And yes, GOD is able to stand up to doubt.

*sign*

Keep telling yourself that... keep telling yourself...

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Temptation is not sin. It was their choice to believe the lie and doubt GOD. The serpent twisted the truth. he told them that of which they already knew. That the tree was for the knowledge of good and evil. GOD had already told them this but commanded them not to eat. But they did not know what evil was. The serpent said they would know good and evil if they ate. Becoming like GOD. And they would not die, in which they did. She thought the fruit was pleasing because of the temptation. And likened it to wisdom because she knew GOD. She wanted to become wise like GOD. But wisdom is of GOD. The knowledge of good and evil was not wisdom. They were already living in GODS wisdom. They already had everything they ever needed in GOD.

This is getting tiring to say, but... the bible states, very plainly, that they were suppose to die on the very day they ate the fruit. The bible also states, very plainly, that Adam lived to be 930 years old (doesn't say how long Eve lived, but it was clearly at least a few years). Either god lied or got the facts wrong.

The bible also states that Adam and Eve DID become like god, and that god was even concerned about them becoming immortal.

Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

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I seriously believe though that GOD knew what was going to happen before it ever happened though. In a good way. Meaning He wouldn't have done it or allowed it, if not for a good and greater purpose. GOD is good and I believe all will eventually come to know this.

6,000 years later, and god still haven't explained anything? You fell for a con game, man...

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But nearly all of you have read and believe the lie of the serpent. You think he was telling the truth when having read Genesis. Can any of you recognize this...? Can you really not see this...? Yet you keep falling for it...?

This is the same as saying "believe the lie of Voldemort" or "believe the lie of Darth Vader". I asked this before, but I'll say it again; do you understand that we see the bible as a work of fiction?

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And GOD through His mercy and grace, His love for you has provided Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Preaching. Nothing to see here.

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You reject Him w/o even having ever known Him because of a lie. We came after the fall. And the underlying truth is hidden within the story of Genesis. And if you did, you would know that He is not as you falsely claim him to be. W/o even knowing Him.

Many of us were christian once. Many of us read the bible. Your statement is invaild.

So, tell us, ILY, when did God come to you and ask you personally if you wanted to bite the fruit or not? Since you "decided not to eat the fruit" I take it you are sinless and as innocent as Adam and Eve were before they ate the fruit. Strangely I was never asked.

You see, the point is that according to your bible mankind as a whole is forever doomed by sin. trillions of people that have lived and trillions of people that have yet to live are damned straight from birth because of the actions of two. And your "good" and "just" God is not only okay with that but was the one who put that kind of system in place.

Tell me, ILY, do you consider it good and just to condemn all for the actions of two? According to your bible even the newborn child is worthy of damnation to everlasting torture in hell, not for the child's own actions but for Adam and Eve's little snack in the Garden Eden.

Would you be ok with being arrested for something your grandfather did? How about being arrested for something one of your ancestors did during the dark ages? Somehow I doubt you'd find kind words for judicial system that would work like that.

I can already guess that your first answer will be that for just this reason God has sent Jesus and how absolutely fantastic that is. But it is not in any way good or just, if you dare to look at it with open eyes, ILY. The injustice of being found guilty for something you did not do yourself still remains. Not to mention that the whole Jesus affair is a case of a thinly veiled extortion racket. According to believers Jesus died on the cross "for our sins" (the sin of Adam and Eve eating the fruit, inherited by every human) and so he paid the price for us. But, and it's a big but here, that's only the case if you believe in him and do all that he wants. If you don't, you'll be tortured for all eternity.

Imagine going to a club but you don't get inside. You're informed that a generous person has already paid your entrance fee for you, so that you can go in.Sounds awesome, doesn't it? That generous person is really wonderful.

But then you are told you may only proceed if you blow the bouncer first. If you refuse, the buddies of the bouncer will drag you off into an alley and beat you senseless for the rest of the night. That doesn't sound as awesome anymore, does it?

That's the kind of "generous offer" you're presented with in the form of Jesus.

Not even a challenge, no, "you're wrong." Just a simple, "I acknowledge there are almost 20 lies in Genesis 1, but I'm going to put my Blind Faith first and believe anyways."

Are you so desperate to believe in Santa Claus[1] that you're going to believe in him no matter how much you must deny reality? My post was made to intentionally show that bronze age goat herders had no idea how the world really works. That they clearly had no insight from an All-Knowing god. If thier inerrant All-Knowing god was wrong on so many counts, it should be obvious that not only did they not know anything about the real world, they knew just as much, ie. nothing, about a spiritual world. It's all imaginary. It's all about power and control. False hope coupled with terrorism. You do know that using fear and terror to control people is terrorism right? What do you think the threat of hell is? Free will? Free choice? One's instincts is to survive, and do what they must to survive. That's why pointing a gun at someone and demanding thier money is called Robbery and not "they gave it of thier freewill!"

What do you think the threat of hell is? Free will? Free choice? One's instincts is to survive, and do what they must to survive. That's why pointing a gun at someone and demanding thier money is called Robbery and not "they gave it of thier freewill!"

That's another of those lovely re-interpretations of believers. God loves us unconditionally...with conditions.

And it's not even a case of having free will. Christians just love to drone on and one about how God has given us free will. But if you just read the bible it's clear that he has not. At the very best you can say that he has given us a choice. And the choice itself is of the same kind as the choice you get if you are robbed by a guy who waves a loaded gun in front of your face. "Believe in me or be tortured in hell for all eternity" is very much the same as "Give me all your money or I'll shoot you." If we really had free will, then the obvious answer to the robbery question would of course be "I want to keep both money and my life" and get away with that.

Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Meaning, they had come to the awarness of good and evil.

Actually, the idea that its the knowledge of 'good' and 'evil' is a poor translation of hebrew text. Many hebrew texts do not translate it so literally, nor is it really relevant in the same theological level as it is claimed in the christian rationale.

Its not the knowledge of good and evil, its just the knowledge of everything.

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Many of us were christian once. Many of us read the bible.

So tell me.... what was it exactly that put doubt in you...?

Christians like you specifically, your reasoning is so far removed intellectually speaking from any kind of rational basis as to put serious question to your mental state. You are condescendingly arrogant and dishonest, not bothering to explain yourself and just mindlessly repeating dogmatic nonsense without a clue as to being capable as to explain why you came to that conclusion.. much less why anyone should believe you.

See, we're not indoctrinated. You are and you make appeals to us as if we are.

Intellectually speaking there is no rational reason to arbitrary interpret Christian dogma by cherry picking random text to confirm to a presupposed theological mythos. The contradictions undermine any capacity for christianity to be taken seriously; jesus doesn't fulfill prophecy, christian claims of myth simply never existed, literally it paints a god that is a moron, and it promotes a level of cultural anti-intellectualism/ignorance/bigotry.

Case in point: You. Thank you for being the example of why one should never believe Christianity.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 11:44:33 PM by Omen »

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

No I wasn't. Just not falling for it. And yes, GOD is able to stand up to doubt.

Temptation is not sin. It was their choice to believe the lie and doubt GOD. The serpent twisted the truth. he told them that of which they already knew. That the tree was for the knowledge of good and evil. GOD had already told them this but commanded them not to eat. But they did not know what evil was. The serpent said they would know good and evil if they ate. Becoming like GOD. And they would not die, in which they did. She thought the fruit was pleasing because of the temptation. And likened it to wisdom because she knew GOD. She wanted to become wise like GOD. But wisdom is of GOD. The knowledge of good and evil was not wisdom. They were already living in GODS wisdom. They already had everything they ever needed in GOD.

Not to mention. GOD gave them the choice. Because the tree of life was in the garden. They could have ate of it but they didn't. GOD already said they could have ate of it. He did not keep it from them at first but said they could eat of any tree in the garden but not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I seriously believe though that GOD knew what was going to happen before it ever happened though. In a good way. Meaning He wouldn't have done it or allowed it, if not for a good and greater purpose. GOD is good and I believe all will eventually come to know this.

But nearly all of you have read and believe the lie of the serpent. You think he was telling the truth when having read Genesis. Can any of you recognize this...? Can you really not see this...? Yet you keep falling for it...?

And GOD through His mercy and grace, His love for you has provided Salvation through Jesus Christ.

You reject Him w/o even having ever known Him because of a lie. We came after the fall. And the underlying truth is hidden within the story of Genesis. And if you did, you would know that He is not as you falsely claim him to be. W/o even knowing Him.

ILY, seriously... This is just a heaping load of nonsense. None of that is true at all. Everyone who has fed you this lie is wrong. Yes, every single person. All this is, is an attempt by ancient desert people to understand how we got here. It is a myth, and all you are doing is applying this myth to your life as if it were true. Seriously, NONE of that is true. You read it in a really old book. That's it. Everyone else that believes this, also read it from a really old book. There is nothing more to it than that.

It doesn't matter if you think the theology behind it is sound. Sometimes we tend to dive into the theological arguments; going back and forth about whether Jesus really was a sacrifice, or whether or not Adam and Eve really knew what they were doing, but lost in all of that is the plain and simple truth that its fucking loony to think any of it took place in the first place.

I just can't believe that rational people still think this stuff is true. The longer I come here, the more idiotic the whole thing seems. I'm sorry, but it's all wrong. All of it. Everything you post is so devoid of rational, evidence based argumentation that the most useful thing I can think of to do is to shake my head and feel sorry for you.

We have evidence now, ILY. Evidence that leads to the conclusion (beyond any reasonable doubt) that God is not necessary in order to understand how this universe came to be. This is not Satan talking, or someone trying to pull a fast one on you... it's just an attempt to show you that maybe this stuff you believe really isn't true. If you could stop with the whole "I have faith" bit and start seeing what the other side of the argument is saying, maybe you could see the whole thing for what it really is.

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

The fact that the world operates exactly as though god does not exists.

Did you operate exactly as though GOD does not exist...? Was your belief in GOD because of religion or was it something personal for you...?

Actually, this is a problem of your own creation ILY. Since you attack knowledge with sophistry and defend your religious claims through equivocating and ambiguity; you leave a situation where the existence of your god claim can't be differentiated from it's non-existence. You also leave a symptomatic problem, due to your blatant arrogance and constant appeals to nonsensical authority, where any person can make a claim like you make just for a completely different religion. I have no more reason to believe your claims, then I do a muslim that makes assertions the exact same way or virtually any religious claim on the planet.

See what happens when you make knowledge meaningless.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

We know there was no tree, or snake, or Adam or Eve, or God. It's just a fairy tale.

Do you know what a parable is...?

That's not really relevant, since there is no reason to interpret it either literally or metaphorically.

if it's 'literal', then it never happened because history contradicts virtually all of the biblical myth claims.

If it's 'metaphorical', then we are condemned for a fantasy and jesus is 'sacrificed' for a metaphor.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Did you operate exactly as though GOD does not exist...? Was your belief in GOD because of religion or was it something personal for you...?

You're religious nuttery is no different from other people's religious nuttery. Your religious ideology and how you portray it to others has more in common with cult like ideological beliefs.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

It's not relevant, you're only inserting this as a red herring, which you will later insert your own nonsensical assertion to whatever you want to claim through a fallacy of an appeal to authority.

It is your job to argue why it is relevant, not expect others to qualify what you frequently go out of your way to avoid arguing for the burden of proof for your own claims.

You have to validate why what you claim of a parable is an answer worth considering using logic and reason. You have no choice BUT to address this:

That's not really relevant, since there is no reason to interpret it either literally or metaphorically.

if it's 'literal', then it never happened because history contradicts virtually all of the biblical myth claims.

If it's 'metaphorical', then we are condemned for a fantasy and jesus is 'sacrificed' for a metaphor.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

It's not relevant, you're only inserting this as a red herring, which you will later insert your own nonsensical assertion to whatever you want to claim through a fallacy of an appeal to authority.

It is your job to argue why it is relevant, not expect others to qualify what you frequently go out of your way to avoid arguing for the burden of proof for your own claims.

You have to validate why what you claim of a parable is an answer worth considering using logic and reason. You have no choice BUT to address this:

That's not really relevant, since there is no reason to interpret it either literally or metaphorically.

if it's 'literal', then it never happened because history contradicts virtually all of the biblical myth claims.

If it's 'metaphorical', then we are condemned for a fantasy and jesus is 'sacrificed' for a metaphor.

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Can you explain why you're so insecure about your religious beliefs as to be threatened by questions and criticisms of your claims and call it hatred?

Can you explain how you can tell the difference between being insane and your personal religious convictions?

Can you do any of this without resorting to fallacies, sophistry, and dishonesty?

Why should we ever take YOU or your religious claims seriously if you can't do any of this?

« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 12:08:19 AM by Omen »

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"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas. Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

ILY, since you are so adamant on having Omen answer your question about what a parable is before you even acknowledge his questions to you, how about you follow your own route and instead of answering my post with a question of your own, you answer my questions in it first?

You see, the point is that according to your bible mankind as a whole is forever doomed by sin. trillions of people that have lived and trillions of people that have yet to live are damned straight from birth because of the actions of two. And your "good" and "just" God is not only okay with that but was the one who put that kind of system in place.

Yes but for a greater purpose.

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Tell me, ILY, do you consider it good and just to condemn all for the actions of two? According to your bible even the newborn child is worthy of damnation to everlasting torture in hell, not for the child's own actions but for Adam and Eve's little snack in the Garden Eden.

This is not what Jesus taught. The Kingdom of GOD was made for children.

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Would you be ok with being arrested for something your grandfather did? How about being arrested for something one of your ancestors did during the dark ages? Somehow I doubt you'd find kind words for judicial system that would work like that.

If by somehow, this worked out for the greater good, yes.

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I can already guess that your first answer will be that for just this reason God has sent Jesus and how absolutely fantastic that is. But it is not in any way good or just, if you dare to look at it with open eyes, ILY. The injustice of being found guilty for something you did not do yourself still remains.

Everyone is guilty. We can't blame anyone for our own actions.

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Not to mention that the whole Jesus affair is a case of a thinly veiled extortion racket. According to believers Jesus died on the cross "for our sins" (the sin of Adam and Eve eating the fruit, inherited by every human) and so he paid the price for us. But, and it's a big but here, that's only the case if you believe in him and do all that he wants. If you don't, you'll be tortured for all eternity.

What He wants is for you to know the truth. This truth will set you free.

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Imagine going to a club but you don't get inside. You're informed that a generous person has already paid your entrance fee for you, so that you can go in.Sounds awesome, doesn't it? That generous person is really wonderful.

But then you are told you may only proceed if you blow the bouncer first. If you refuse, the buddies of the bouncer will drag you off into an alley and beat you senseless for the rest of the night. That doesn't sound as awesome anymore, does it?

That's the kind of "generous offer" you're presented with in the form of Jesus.

I don't think it's quite what you are making it out to be but rather what you "think" it sounds like to you.

We all do. This is an atheist site; of course we know what it is. And if you think you're the first theist who's tried to come in here and play that "it's a parable" bullshit game with us, then you can feel free to move on to the next step where you declare that the Genesis story is only a parable used to teach us lessons. Then our next step would be to show you how if none of it happened, then Jesus sacrifice was useless because there is no actual original sin, and then you will dodge around that, stepping straight into the idea that evil is in man's nature and that we really do need a savior, to which we will reply that the entire premise of human sacrifice is nothing more than ancient superstitious nonsense, and then someone on the atheist side will bring up the notion that if one part of the bible is only parable, then why not the rest of the bible (such as the death and resurrection only being a parable), and you will retreat into yet another emotional argument for which you provide no evidence and we'd be back where we started from.

Can't we just skip all that shit and have you answer Omen's questions now?

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT