I just want to say that I think a lot of you who I usually respect are being really rude, and making a joke out of some serious questions.

I hope you and your family can find a solution. My wife is an Evangelical Protestant and we are having similar difficulties in our family. I know how hard it is to be separated at the Lord's Table and not to share a common cup when your two flesh have become one. But our God is a good God and works all things out in the end. Remember that even if you don't come to a common understanding, that St. Paul says that the prayers of the believing spouse save the "unbelieving" spouse.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

That is, of course, your opinion. Is it not possible (and perhaps likely?) that one could read and research the matter beginning from and in the framework of, a particularly RC pov and understanding? Which would influence or shape the understanding of the differences and similarities?

In any case, I have encountered much more anti-Catholic bias and "hatred" from Protestants than from Orthodox.

But as long as there is an attitude, whether real or perceived, dismissal of very real differences in theology and praxis and accusations that the gulf is due to anti-Latin feeling, even discussions of like this will come to a dead end.

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

That's okay...I wouldn't expect anything less...I just hope it means the proselytizers are firm in their faith and not just overly defensive due to uncertainty and/or insecurity...for that would cause me to loose my sincere respect for the Orthodox faith!

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something!

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

I hope you and your family can find a solution. My wife is an Evangelical Protestant and we are having similar difficulties in our family. I know how hard it is to be separated at the Lord's Table and not to share a common cup when your two flesh have become one. But our God is a good God and works all things out in the end. Remember that even if you don't come to a common understanding, that St. Paul says that the prayers of the believing spouse save the "unbelieving" spouse.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.

I too believe that the through marriage two flesh (two souls) have become one and that the through the "believing spouse", the "unbelieving" spouse can be saved. I guess which one of us (I or my wife) is the "believing" spouse is up to debate.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

Since you claim to know so much about Orthodoxy's modern approach to its theology, I didn't realize that you must have attended say, St. Vladimir's or St. Tikhon's or Holy Cross or Christ the Savior or St. Sophia's Seminaries to form your opinions about Orthodox theology in order for you to make such a statement. Of course I also realize that you might have attended a school from a more 'Traditionalist' Orthodox jurisdiction. Or perhaps have you just been following these types of 'debates' online from various sites of various persuasions or reading polemical publications, like fisheaters and the like?

Try this link from the Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops before you make such a blanket accusation.

I hope you and your family can find a solution. My wife is an Evangelical Protestant and we are having similar difficulties in our family. I know how hard it is to be separated at the Lord's Table and not to share a common cup when your two flesh have become one. But our God is a good God and works all things out in the end. Remember that even if you don't come to a common understanding, that St. Paul says that the prayers of the believing spouse save the "unbelieving" spouse.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.

I too believe that the through marriage two flesh (two souls) have become one and that the through the "believing spouse", the "unbelieving" spouse can be saved. I guess which one of us (I or my wife) is the "believing" spouse is up to debate.

Please, don't do not go down that rabbit hole. I trust the sincerity of each of your beliefs and that is not for us, as strangers on the internet, to debate.

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.

No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.

That is, of course, your opinion. Is it not possible (and perhaps likely?) that one could read and research the matter beginning from and in the framework of, a particularly RC pov and understanding? Which would influence or shape the understanding of the differences and similarities?

In any case, I have encountered much more anti-Catholic bias and "hatred" from Protestants than from Orthodox.

But as long as there is an attitude, whether real or perceived, dismissal of very real differences in theology and praxis and accusations that the gulf is due to anti-Latin feeling, even discussions of like this will come to a dead end.

Oh, I believe that there is a real difference, but not with regard to as many matters as you think.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

yeah your right, i still say russian orthodox though just because the catholics told him to put the pope before his wife

REEEEEEEALLY?

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something!

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something!

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Not only that, this is the Convert sub-forum, where people come to discuss conversion to the Orthodox Church. This is not the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum no matter how much the RCs on here want it to be.

And let me add Orthodoc to the list of people I'm agreeing with; it happens more than stashko, but it's still noteworthy!

Quote from: elijahmaria

Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Perhaps you should examine your own words/rhetoric before you point fingers at other people and whine about them...you just might find a speck or two in there.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 12:59:05 PM by Schultz »

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something!

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Not only that, this is the Convert sub-forum, where people come to discuss conversion to the Orthodox Church. This is not the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum no matter how much the RCs on here want it to be.

And let me add Orthodoc to the list of people I'm agreeing with; it happens more than stashko, but it's still noteworthy!

Quote from: elijahmaria

Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Perhaps you should examine your own words/rhetoric before you point fingers at other people and whine about them...you just might find a speck or two in there.

Speaking of laughable: Any other time a thread starts in ANY venue on this Forum, where the conversation drifts to things Catholic and Orthodox that thread or portions of it are whisked away to the Orthodox versus Catholic section so fast my head spins.

But NOW we have a live rabbit in the trap, eh?

Always the double standard.

For complaining about moderation in the public forum once again you are hereby placed on Post Moderation for the next 30 days. Really, someone of your experience should know by now how to control herself. Please PM Fr. George or FrChris if you find this in error. Do NOT PM me. Thank you. -Schultz.

To the original poster: Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet? Or Father George Maloney?

I have not. Who are they?

I will write to you privately. All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.

Mary simply must know that she's wrong when stashko and I agree on something!

Good thing I don't come here for the snuggle points and good fellowship.

I still think it is out of line to nag somebody who has made their position clear. It is really very painful to look a truth sqare in the eye and choose when all your emotions want something else...and as the original poster noted, he does not want to be tempted to loose respect. Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Mary

Mary:

Sometimes your responses are almost laughable. This is an Orthodox Catholic discussion forum open to all to discuss Orthodoxy or religion in general. If you don't like what we say or how we defend ourselves and or faith, then leave.

You accuse us of proseltyzing. Why are you here? Since the OP mentioned he believes in both Papal Supremacy & Infaalibility I haven't read one response that be considered as proseltyzing. The Orthodox responses (including my own) have been to tell him to stay where he is. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen Mary!

Orthodoc

Not only that, this is the Convert sub-forum, where people come to discuss conversion to the Orthodox Church. This is not the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum no matter how much the RCs on here want it to be.

And let me add Orthodoc to the list of people I'm agreeing with; it happens more than stashko, but it's still noteworthy!

Quote from: elijahmaria

Since I have lost a great deal of respect since coming here, I think you all might reconsider not only your words but the attitudes that feed them.

Perhaps you should examine your own words/rhetoric before you point fingers at other people and whine about them...you just might find a speck or two in there.

Speaking of laughable: Any other time a thread starts in ANY venue on this Forum, where the conversation drifts to things Catholic and Orthodox that thread or portions of it are whisked away to the Orthodox versus Catholic section so fast my head spins.

But NOW we have a live rabbit in the trap, eh?

Always the double standard.

Huh?

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice? (By the way, even the other Byzantine Rites like the Ruthenian parish near me which have been suggested as an option, just don't cut it for those of the Russian Orthodox tradition.) And then there are the children...

I appreciate -all- of the responses and discussions that have resulted from my inquiry...and welcome any more. My wife and I have spoken to the RO priest and thankfully he has been understanding and welcoming to me and my children (less Sacraments of course and I assume with hopes of my conversion) and has provided some good guidance, but is nice to get outside 'anonymous' perspectives as well.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice? (By the way, even the other Byzantine Rites like the Ruthenian parish near me which have been suggested as an option, just don't cut it for those of the Russian Orthodox tradition.) And then there are the children...

I appreciate -all- of the responses and discussions that have resulted from my inquiry...and welcome any more. My wife and I have spoken to the RO priest and thankfully he has been understanding and welcoming to me and my children (less Sacraments of course and I assume with hopes of my conversion) and has provided some good guidance, but is nice to get outside 'anonymous' perspectives as well.

I commend you for attempting to find some compromise, especially as I was raised in home of differing faith traditions. I know what that can be like. But a compromise means that each party has to give something up.

The plain fact, is that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are not the same. No matter how much we might wish it otherwise or construct a fantasy that there are only minor theological quibbles and/or an inexplicable anti-Catholic bias separating us, there are very real substantive differences both in theology and praxis.

Papal infallibility, for example, is not simply an administrative detail, but a theological understanding. The filioque, similarly, is not just a minor misunderstanding of an obscure theological point, but a substantive change in the Nicene Creed, as well as the Church's theological understanding of the Trinity.

No one is saying that you can't attend an Orthodox Church with your family. What we're saying is, I think, that you can't be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic because they are different Churches, and if you think you can, you may be fooling yourself to no purpose.

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

Logged

Quote

But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

"If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. "

I currently do not see a violation of this policy in the clear explaination of the differences between "Russian Byzantine Catholic? Or just Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic?"

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.

Orthodoxy is a living reality, but that living reality is not a romanticized, dying culture but the God-Man Jesus Christ, and that reality is manifested in dogmas as much as in culture and community. Contrasting dogmas with "living reality" nonsensical.

Logged

Quote

But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

I have to agree with Augustin regarding Greek Catholics. Living among them and/or coming from them,(as both he and I can attest) it is really not possible to define them as 'counterfeit'. Living in a sort of 'limbo' maybe, but 'counterfeit' - not really.

Certainly, until the modern era of mass communications, those faithful Greek Catholics in Europe lived their lives as did their ancestors in an 'Orthodox' manner. The 'old-timers' who were betrayed in America and Canada by the Latin hierarchy would simply refer to their church as 'nas Cerkov', or 'our Church.' For the most part they did not view themselves or the practice of their faith in terms of Vatican politics or an Orthodox episcopacy. To many of them Orthodoxy was unfortunately, and erroneously, equated with Russian imperialism.

It was only when they came face to face with the reality of being a sliver of a minority within American Catholicism, a minority group itself, that they began to realize the tenuous nature of their existence. I think that it is fair to say that in the 'diaspora' (to use a term we use frequently to describe Orthodox in non-Orthodox worlds) Greek Catholics have had a much harder path to follow as they attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a Protestant society with a large Latin Catholic minority. It was a 'Sophie's Choice' to many of them as they felt squeezed between two competing monoliths - the religious imperialism of Rome and the cultural imperialism of Moscow.

Hence to some, preserving 'nas Cerkov' meant having to make a difficult, and heart wrenching choice. It has to be noted that when faced with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church by Soviet 'diktat' following the Revolution in Ukraine and the Second World War across the rest of East Europe, most chose to go underground until the lessening of the grip of the Soviet bear. The damage caused by the Soviets to the faith of both the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in those regions is impossible to calculate. Any real hope of a return to Orthodoxy in those regions akin to what happened through the choice and actions of the people in America was likely lost for generations and the ill will that remains there is difficult for us Americans to fathom.

I 'defend' the Greek Catholics not in the sense of defending their existing schism or error, but in the reality of trying to explain to Orthodox who have never had to deal with these complex issues to try to understand them in a kinder, more compassionate manner. Please keep them in your prayers. Thank you.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

I have to agree with Augustin regarding Greek Catholics. Living among them and/or coming from them,(as both he and I can attest) it is really not possible to define them as 'counterfeit'. Living in a sort of 'limbo' maybe, but 'counterfeit' - not really.

Certainly, until the modern era of mass communications, those faithful Greek Catholics in Europe lived their lives as did their ancestors in an 'Orthodox' manner. The 'old-timers' who were betrayed in America and Canada by the Latin hierarchy would simply refer to their church as 'nas Cerkov', or 'our Church.' For the most part they did not view themselves or the practice of their faith in terms of Vatican politics or an Orthodox episcopacy. To many of them Orthodoxy was unfortunately, and erroneously, equated with Russian imperialism.

It was only when they came face to face with the reality of being a sliver of a minority within American Catholicism, a minority group itself, that they began to realize the tenuous nature of their existence. I think that it is fair to say that in the 'diaspora' (to use a term we use frequently to describe Orthodox in non-Orthodox worlds) Greek Catholics have had a much harder path to follow as they attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a Protestant society with a large Latin Catholic minority. It was a 'Sophie's Choice' to many of them as they felt squeezed between two competing monoliths - the religious imperialism of Rome and the cultural imperialism of Moscow.

Hence to some, preserving 'nas Cerkov' meant having to make a difficult, and heart wrenching choice. It has to be noted that when faced with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church by Soviet 'diktat' following the Revolution in Ukraine and the Second World War across the rest of East Europe, most chose to go underground until the lessening of the grip of the Soviet bear. The damage caused by the Soviets to the faith of both the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in those regions is impossible to calculate. Any real hope of a return to Orthodoxy in those regions akin to what happened through the choice and actions of the people in America was likely lost for generations and the ill will that remains there is difficult for us Americans to fathom.

I 'defend' the Greek Catholics not in the sense of defending their existing schism or error, but in the reality of trying to explain to Orthodox who have never had to deal with these complex issues to try to understand them in a kinder, more compassionate manner. Please keep them in your prayers. Thank you.

I think agree with some of what you say but not all. Coming from the same background as you (my grandparents came here as Greek Catholics). I think it depends on the location one ancestors came from. I talked to a lot of older people in my parish (now deceased) that came from various parts of eastern europe. Some, like my grandparents, were aware they weren't Orthodox in europe but longed for the day they were free to return to Orthodoxy which they did in 1910 when they arrived here. But the were many more who told me when they were in europe they had no idea they weren't Orthodox until they came here. They would say that they still identified themselves as "Pravoslanie - Orthodox" in the Liturgy. When I asked my why she returned she replied (in her thick accent - "Cause dos peoples dont know vat dey are or vat dey vant be. Dey no vant be Ortodox but dey no vant be Roamn Catolick either". And, she was right. Most Greek Catholics I know (including family) suffer from an identity crisis. The Unia has been anything but a success. As is anything which is created by force.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.

I am getting this same sense from the people/priest/practices in the Russian Orthodox Church my wife and I sometimes attend, which appear to mirror the Russian Orthodox people/priest/practices of my wife's family and friends in Russia, when comparing them (people/priest/practices) to other Orthodox faithful/churches I have encountered in the U.S. I have a feeling, for example, that a person would have a hard time telling the difference between the people/priest/practices of a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the Ukraine from the people/priest/practices of a Ukrainian Catholic Church in the Ukraine.

This is part of why I think that if any Byzantine Catholic church is a viable option for me in my situation, the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church would be the best (if not only) option short of converting: The few Russian Byzantine Catholic parishes I have read/heard about are as far as I can tell identical to the Russian Orthodox parishes in almost every way. I cannot speak from first hand experience, of course, but this fact corresponds with the reseach I have done on the history and development of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church. In my humble opinion, this 'imitation' does not come accross as 'counterfeit' as suggested before, but simply an authentic Russian Rite in union with Rome.

I accept responsibility for the direction of this thread, as my inquiry is apparently in some minds worthy of discussion, while in others' incomprehensible...I get it.

My intention of posting my inquiry on Orthodox forum under the topic of Convert Issues was simply that: Does my situation boil down to a convert issue? Is being a Russian Byzantine Catholic without a parish a reasonable/viable compromise for a reared Roman Catholic to participate as fully as possible in the faith/spiritual life and practice of a Russian Orthodox spouse without converting to Orthodoxy? Or must I simply remain separated from my wife in spiritual life and practice by sticking with a Roman Catholic faith/spiritual life and practice?

On a certain level, I think you will understand your wife better if you use the same prayers and practice similar devotions. You will probably feel more commonality with each other in that sense- if that's all you're looking for, then that's a good option. On the other hand, from an Orthodox perspective, "Byzantine Catholic" is not a halfway point or a happy medium- it is, in our view, counterfeit. Going "Byzantine Catholic" doesn't bring you any closer to Orthodoxy than visiting Epcot Center in Disney World brings you to France or China.

I disagree with you here. I depends what you mean by "closer to Orthodoxy". I am pretty sure the Greek Catholics of Eastern Europe were and still are, in fewer places nowadays, much closer to real life, lived Orthodoxy (well, sometimes to the point of being quite identical, apart some paper stuff) than any Westerner at the time could have been, even if they became sacramentally Orthodox.But then again I look at Orthodoxy as more of a living reality, a way of life, a concrete thing than a set of dogmas to which intellectual assent is required.We had a minor writer (Ion Agarbiceanu was his pen name) who was also a greek-Catholic priest in a village in Transylvania from well before the the WWI to 1948 when the GCC was abolished. His short stories and memoirs are very beautiful, painting a world that, imo, is orthodox in all its basic co-ordinates, even though I know he was a Greek-catholic priest, and the characters of his stories are, most likely, Greek-Catholic. He never says what Church they belonged too.

I have to agree with Augustin regarding Greek Catholics. Living among them and/or coming from them,(as both he and I can attest) it is really not possible to define them as 'counterfeit'. Living in a sort of 'limbo' maybe, but 'counterfeit' - not really.

Certainly, until the modern era of mass communications, those faithful Greek Catholics in Europe lived their lives as did their ancestors in an 'Orthodox' manner. The 'old-timers' who were betrayed in America and Canada by the Latin hierarchy would simply refer to their church as 'nas Cerkov', or 'our Church.' For the most part they did not view themselves or the practice of their faith in terms of Vatican politics or an Orthodox episcopacy. To many of them Orthodoxy was unfortunately, and erroneously, equated with Russian imperialism.

It was only when they came face to face with the reality of being a sliver of a minority within American Catholicism, a minority group itself, that they began to realize the tenuous nature of their existence. I think that it is fair to say that in the 'diaspora' (to use a term we use frequently to describe Orthodox in non-Orthodox worlds) Greek Catholics have had a much harder path to follow as they attempt to carve out a place for themselves in a Protestant society with a large Latin Catholic minority. It was a 'Sophie's Choice' to many of them as they felt squeezed between two competing monoliths - the religious imperialism of Rome and the cultural imperialism of Moscow.

Hence to some, preserving 'nas Cerkov' meant having to make a difficult, and heart wrenching choice. It has to be noted that when faced with the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church by Soviet 'diktat' following the Revolution in Ukraine and the Second World War across the rest of East Europe, most chose to go underground until the lessening of the grip of the Soviet bear. The damage caused by the Soviets to the faith of both the Orthodox and Greek Catholics in those regions is impossible to calculate. Any real hope of a return to Orthodoxy in those regions akin to what happened through the choice and actions of the people in America was likely lost for generations and the ill will that remains there is difficult for us Americans to fathom.

I 'defend' the Greek Catholics not in the sense of defending their existing schism or error, but in the reality of trying to explain to Orthodox who have never had to deal with these complex issues to try to understand them in a kinder, more compassionate manner. Please keep them in your prayers. Thank you.

I think agree with some of what you say but not all. Coming from the same background as you (my grandparents came here as Greek Catholics). I think it depends on the location one ancestors came from. I talked to a lot of older people in my parish (now deceased) that came from various parts of eastern europe. Some, like my grandparents, were aware they weren't Orthodox in europe but longed for the day they were free to return to Orthodoxy which they did in 1910 when they arrived here. But the were many more who told me when they were in europe they had no idea they weren't Orthodox until they came here. They would say that they still identified themselves as "Pravoslanie - Orthodox" in the Liturgy. When I asked my why she returned she replied (in her thick accent - "Cause dos peoples dont know vat dey are or vat dey vant be. Dey no vant be Ortodox but dey no vant be Roamn Catolick either". And, she was right. Most Greek Catholics I know (including family) suffer from an identity crisis. The Unia has been anything but a success. As is anything which is created by force.

Orthodoc

Your comments mirror my own experiences as well. And I think that in today's American Byzantine Catholic Church that identity crisis is more pronounced than among say, Ukrainian Greek Catholics due to the nationality issue. The only historical thing that I would say is that while the Unia was hardly a success in serving as a means for foster understanding between East and West (that does sound absurd!) it probably allowed the peoples who were forced into it a means to preserve their religious and cultural heritages as best they could under foreign princes who clearly were Latin Catholics. Had it gone the other way, neither you - Orthodoc - not I might be anything other than a Slovak Roman Catholic today. Just a thought, as God does work in strange ways. S'bohom!

I think if you honestly believe in the Papacy, yet want to do something charitable for your wife and show her that you are trying your best to find common ground, attending a Russian Byzantine Catholic parish would be a nice idea. Obviously you would not want to cease being Catholic since you have Catholic beliefs, but you do not necessarily have to continue going to a Latin parish.