Just sounds like you think you're absolutely sure of what the situation is.

And sounds like you're taking offence at me expressing an opinion on god. Why is that?

And why would I want you to confirm or deny anything? Are you his mouthpiece?

And what exactly am I "absolutely sure" of (because I wasn't aware I was absolutely sure of anything, but hey, looks like you know me better than I know myself).

No, I'm not taking offence about it at all. I'm pretty nit picky sometimes, but just excuse me for a minute while I get it out of my system lol

Ok this - "And I think it shows how much god actually cares about all his beloved children" Is your response to what I said and seems to be an assumption about the character of God without me saying anything at all. So it seemed as if you spoke for me and then answered yourself.

This doesn't offend me, but I just notice stuff like this because I also keep in mind other things you guys say.
I guess it's also one of my peeves, if you will, when people make assumptions about things that seem to take a bit more than just a surface observation.
I am a Theist myself, and I don't usually develop any objective opinions until I've went as deep as I could possibly go.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

No offence, but this just a lot of talk about nothing, she said, he said.

And I answered myself, because you didn't/couldn't.

So, we do not know what happens to people who were born before they could be saved through Christ, is this what you are saying?

Let's assume they are automatically damned. Do you think this is fair, esp. of an all-loving father?

Let's say they are automatically saved. How does that work - do only the good ones get saved or everybody? And is it fair for the "bad" ones not to be saved, when they might have just be following the norms of their society, trying their best to be good, but it just didn't coincide with a later god's idea of morality?

You must have heard of the old story of the Eskimo and the Missionary?

Missionary: I am here to tell you about god and how to be saved, blah, blah.
Eskimo: What about all the people before Jesus and the people that have not heard the 'word' yet. Are they going to hell? If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?
Missionary: No, not if you did not know [official catholic policy].
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

(09-01-2013 08:56 AM)Vera Wrote: No offence, but this just a lot of talk about nothing, she said, he said.

And I answered myself, because you didn't/couldn't.

So, we do not know what happens to people who were born before they could be saved through Christ, is this what you are saying?

Let's assume they are automatically damned. Do you think this is fair, esp. of an all-loving father?

Let's say they are automatically saved. How does that work - do only the good ones get saved or everybody? And is it fair for the "bad" ones not to be saved, when they might have just be following the norms of their society, trying their best to be good, but it just didn't coincide with a later god's idea of morality?

I'm not really sure what the condition of humans are when we spawn. It seems to me like it is built in our nature to rebel against God but I'm only semi-certain on that.
It seems to be the case that every human has free will and that our free will is to naturally do whatever we want, and that is to be as selfish as we can be. It also seems like we have this other part of us that knows what we ought to do, and so we sometimes are conflicted in our behavior.

Now, if what I just said is the case, and we are rebellious by choice, then asking if it's fair that we are punished for that is like asking if it's fair to the child that he was grounded for a week because he spit in his sisters cereal for a good laugh.

If you instead ask if it's fair for someone committing finite crimes to suffer an infinite punishment, then that's an entirely different story.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

(09-01-2013 09:08 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote: I'm not really sure what the condition of humans are when we spawn. It seems to me like it is built in our nature to rebel against God but I'm only semi-certain on that.
It seems to be the case that every human has free will and that our free will is to naturally do whatever we want, and that is to be as selfish as we can be. It also seems like we have this other part of us that knows what we ought to do, and so we sometimes are conflicted in our behavior.
...

Reading this, I feel very fortunate not to have to worry about any of it.

We have evolved social morals (reciprocity, empathy, loyalty etc.) so we do not just do whatever we want. Not even namiloveyou does that whatever he/she may claim.
Even if we were naturally rebellious (which we are not or no one would belong to a religion or pay tax etc.) we can't rebel against an authority figure that does not exist.
There is growing evidence that explains the limitations of the 'free will' model.

(09-01-2013 06:32 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote: I'm not really sure what the condition of humans are when we spawn. It seems to me like it is built in our nature to rebel against God but I'm only semi-certain on that.

Well, you yourself that "I think my stance was that we are all born Apatheists which is a type of Atheist. Basically, we are all born without having made a choice - then throughout life we make choices and believe different things."

This sounds pretty sure to me.

Quote:
It seems to be the case that every human has free will and that our free will is to naturally do whatever we want, and that is to be as selfish as we can be. It also seems like we have this other part of us that knows what we ought to do, and so we sometimes are conflicted in our behavior.

Now, if what I just said is the case, and we are rebellious by choice, then asking if it's fair that we are punished for that is like asking if it's fair to the child that he was grounded for a week because he spit in his sisters cereal for a good laugh.
It seems more reasonable to say that He just gave every person the choice to do as theywish

Yeah, but the kid who spit in his sister's cereal knew that was wrong. How do we know what is wrong according to god if he refuses to make himself clear?

Also, if he created us, why would he create us selfish and rebellious? And free will is not a good enough answer. And it does go back to my original question, that you refuse to even tackle. What choice did those before Jesus have?

Or, if this is too difficult (and it is not), how about people born in a devoutly hinduistic family? Is this child equipped to make this choice you insist we have, with the same ease as someone born into a very Xian family? How about people from tribes in the Amazon? Whose cereal did they spit in and whose fault is it that they didn't have the "good luck" to be born in a place that would enable them to make the right choice? Or even know that such a choice exists?

And one final thing, even if he had indeed given everyone the choice to do as they wish, the problem is that he wants everyone to do as he wishes, while at the same time stacking the cards against some of us and dealing others one winning hand after the other. Does this sound fair to you?

(08-01-2013 10:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: Down in the Boxing Ring thread with KC, he said something rather firmly that god knows everything. If that's true, then did god also make atheists? Are we in a spiritual purgatory? Or were we created to test the faith of Christians?

I just find this a bit confusing.

Sometimes you guys aren't very consistent. That or you just aren't specifying.

Many of you have recently said that we are all born Atheists.

I think my stance was that we are all born Apatheists which is a type of Atheist. Basically, we are all born without having made a choice - then throughout life we make choices and believe different things.

So I don't think God creates the person distinctly as an Atheist. It seems more reasonable to say that He just gave every person the choice to do as they wish.

That would be a slight oddity in the argument... but the post is about KC and his ideology. We know he is a Calvinist and in that case the theology takes a different course.. because God in that case, is knowing and essentially controlling all that the person will experience and become. So he knows who is going to grow up/or stay/atheist their entire lives.

Now that I see you are going on about this idea of free will against God we could be born with. I'm curious why you are in the believe in having free will if God is omniscient/omnipotent.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson

(09-01-2013 04:05 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote: Presuppositions:
1. God knows everything
2. "Everything" includes the entire past, present, and future
3. Heaven and hell exist
4. Failure to achieve salvation and remain in a state of grace is cause for going to hell
5. We cannot truly know god because he is supernatural, invisible, and remaining undetectable to us probably because he's giving us freewill

Most Christians believe in most of that. KC might argue the 4th point on the grounds that he believes only 144,000 pre-selected souls go to heaven, which invalidates most of the need for living a "Christian" life - you're either pre-selected or you're not. But that belief doesn't invalidate my argument.

The problem is this. God seems to be hiding; we surely can't find him. There are literally thousands of religions on this planet. Most people in those religions are there by accident of birth - it was mom and dad's religion. Others are there by conversion which usually happens by a) being vulnerable (sad, suffering, lost a loved one, whatever) and b) a chance encounter with someone who spreads word of their favorite religion.

Either way, it's chance.

So some lucky few who were born right or met the right proselytizer at the right time in their life will go to heaven. Everyone else will burn in hell. Based on modern statistics, there are about 2 billion Christians in the world but they're so subdivided into different sects and cults and whatnot that clearly not all of them are going to heaven; even they admit that (usually by telling other Christians that they will go to hell). Even if the largest group is right, that's still less than 1 billion souls saved.

Out of 7 billion people on the planet right now, 1 billion are saved (or significantly less; KC believes that number is about a million times too big).

I didn't know KC was a Jehova's Witness.

By Jehovah, you're right. I seem to have mixed up some JW and Calvinist thought there. I guess Calvinists don't stick a finite number on the elect. My bad.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein