abelcainsbrother wrote:I really don't really have a problem with Seventh Day Adventists from what I know about them but I just don't go to church on Saturday.

Sure, can you see though that if people in the Bible kept the Sabbath and looked for the return of Christ that they could be named SDA's? By definition of the name itself?

I'll agree with that but I think SDA's make too much of a big deal about it.I consider SDA's Christian if they've been born again and even though they have a unique way of preaching I don't think it is bad teaching necessarily but I could not become a member of an SDA church,as it is just not a church home for me.

I prefer a more lively type church that understands that it is OK to get excited about what Jesus and not have people judge you,or look at you funny as David was not ashamed when his clothes came off,he was excited about the ark of the covenant and praised and danced before God,it was his basher that was the wrong one.I'd never be truthfully taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit if I was an SDA.

I prefer churches that allows the Holy Spirit to dictate what to do and even what message to preach,a church that is not boxed in by tradition so much,but is willing to let God direct the worship and even what kind of a service we have,instead of doing the same thing every church service.

This does not mean I'm closed off to SDA teaching but we are a body made up of many members.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Sadly some fall into legalism/works based stay saved mentality while others get into soul sleep and different forms of annihilationism. On the good side many are very sincere in their love for God and for that, they should be respected as they are not legalistic at all but rather choose to express love for God as they feel right. We have had the hard core legalistic SDA types on this forum before but in general most SDA on this forum love God for that - Amen!

When folks come on the forum and speak of the Law and keeping it, we do challenge and test that, not to hurt or malign but rather for the person to see if they do really love God in love or the opposite. So expect a lively discussion...

Yes, this dancing was not exactly conservative, was it?David's attitude before that, was one of dread and removing himself a good distance from the ark.What a contrast, and I'm not sure I can relate to either.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul talks about the falling away from the truth which would take place before the return of Christ.But he does not place this event far into the future, because he mentions that the mystery of iniquity was already at work. verse 7. If the Books of Daniel and Revelation are prophetic, we should expect this concept to be in there.Jesus also mentioned the events that were going to transpire in Jerusalem and its destruction from the book of Daniel, which incidentally, like Revelation, covers thousands of years, and not just a short time before Christ returns as claimed by tribbers and others.

Revelation gives 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets, as an overall picture of the history of the world from John's time to the Advent of Christ.

So we have the spiritual aspect in the 7 churches, the world religious trends in the 7 seals, and the political aspects of religion in the 7 trumpets.

Could it be that these 7's give us a clue about who are God's own people in every era? Many of you already know this, and understand that the church of Laodicea the seventh or last one, is a picture of the condition of God's people now. Who need to be ready for His eminent return.

Could we trace the church of God through history, so to be able to know His true church today?

The dark ages were predicted by Daniel, and Paul, and Christ. where was God's church in this time? Was she in the dragon the Papacy or had she fled into the wilderness for 1260 years? Revelation 12.

Starhunter wrote:In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul talks about the falling away from the truth which would take place before the return of Christ.But he does not place this event far into the future, because he mentions that the mystery of iniquity was already at work. verse 7. If the Books of Daniel and Revelation are prophetic, we should expect this concept to be in there.Jesus also mentioned the events that were going to transpire in Jerusalem and its destruction from the book of Daniel, which incidentally, like Revelation, covers thousands of years, and not just a short time before Christ returns as claimed by tribbers and others.

Revelation gives 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets, as an overall picture of the history of the world from John's time to the Advent of Christ.

So we have the spiritual aspect in the 7 churches, the world religious trends in the 7 seals, and the political aspects of religion in the 7 trumpets.

Could it be that these 7's give us a clue about who are God's own people in every era? Many of you already know this, and understand that the church of Laodicea the seventh or last one, is a picture of the condition of God's people now. Who need to be ready for His eminent return.

Could we trace the church of God through history, so to be able to know His true church today?

The dark ages were predicted by Daniel, and Paul, and Christ. where was God's church in this time? Was she in the dragon the Papacy or had she fled into the wilderness for 1260 years? Revelation 12.

Colossians 2:1-23.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Starhunter wrote:In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul talks about the falling away from the truth which would take place before the return of Christ.But he does not place this event far into the future, because he mentions that the mystery of iniquity was already at work. verse 7. If the Books of Daniel and Revelation are prophetic, we should expect this concept to be in there.Jesus also mentioned the events that were going to transpire in Jerusalem and its destruction from the book of Daniel, which incidentally, like Revelation, covers thousands of years, and not just a short time before Christ returns as claimed by tribbers and others.

Revelation gives 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets, as an overall picture of the history of the world from John's time to the Advent of Christ.

So we have the spiritual aspect in the 7 churches, the world religious trends in the 7 seals, and the political aspects of religion in the 7 trumpets.

Could it be that these 7's give us a clue about who are God's own people in every era? Many of you already know this, and understand that the church of Laodicea the seventh or last one, is a picture of the condition of God's people now. Who need to be ready for His eminent return.

Could we trace the church of God through history, so to be able to know His true church today?

The dark ages were predicted by Daniel, and Paul, and Christ. where was God's church in this time? Was she in the dragon the Papacy or had she fled into the wilderness for 1260 years? Revelation 12.

Hypothesis:

I think folks see and read into the text throughout history, forgetting the basic principle of Hebraic thought regarding uncovering truth through the Letters and number meanings of ancient Hebrew biblical thought. Therefore, the number, 1260, may not be literal years at all but rather a composite of Hebrew Otiot (letter pictograph) which would and must align with the context of the text it is used in in order to glean further details from that specific text alone:

So let's read Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. NASB

...and not years at all but rather that there will be cycles of time in which the Jewish people will nourished to the full knowledge of who Jesus is. Rev 12:5 identifies the woman as the Jewish people and the Heir is.

The Otiot of this variable would reveal this: Whose hand will remain true to the shepherd's staff during all the twists and turns which brings one into full knowledge of the firstborn (heir) of God's completeness?

The context is war against the woman and the Son and during these times of trial to see who is really faithful and who is not as fully revealed although the OT and NT concerning Israel verified by the historical records too. Now jump to this verse Rev 12:14

Rev 12:14 identifies two complete cycles of time (Note Isaiah 11:11 and note what event happened in May 14, 1948) and a divided cycle or time cut short as Jesus mentions in Matt 24:22... or as Amos 9:9-14 mentions - Israel will suffer a severe war and from that look upon whom they pierced (Zec 12:10) that cycle of scattering into the nations is literally cut short (no more scattering) so that they are not scattered again after an invasion as happened twice before: 597 BC and 70 AD time periods.

Now in regards to the for the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets, again too difficult to say what these mean with precision but the meaning of the numbers give insight and add them together to gain further insight if any ... Note: This how the basic ancient Hebrew use of letters and number meanings were used to gain further insight into a text.

7 = biblical number and Otiot means Resting in God's perfection, wholeness, soundness that comes by God's plowing or sword...

So you have the bringing forth God's perfection by His sword and plow, that brings about deliverance/salvation/release from a prison by ransom paid so that the exceeding sinfulness of sin is done away finally and forever. Now, this in complete line with the the theme of the book of Revelation is it not?

There are 7 churches mentioned. Of these 5 God has ought against and seeks repentance from. Two are told they are to hold fast. Of these two, one is the persecuted martyred church and the other is promised an escape. So you have 5 of these churches exploiting, denying, or misusing God's Grace (5 is the number for grace) and 2 that do not. Two in bible numbers means witness of truth verifying unity or division in the house. So you have 2 faithful groups of believers in the end time church who verify truth and with that, I will not say any more.

Next, Rev 11:2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months." NASB

The number 42 in bible numbers means: Israel's oppression by an an anti-God ie anti-God spirit...

With that, pray and ask the Lord what it means...as I do not go further than that.

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." NASB

Two in bible numbers means witness of truth verifying unity or division in the house. These two witnesses are doing the same. Also note hat the same number 1260 is used. Which as stated before but to this context might indicate: Those who hands will remain on the shepherd staff during all the twists and turns who will reveal / bring about the full knowledge God's completeness/plans as the context reveals what these two will be doing.

You must always remain in accord with the context of scripture to understand how the numbers and letters help further insight. If not, roll dice... and second guess.

Again, take with a grain of salt, test, and pray. These things I mentioned are all only hypotheses and nothing more so take them that way---

All these churches were local at the time of John.Colossians 2, shows that Laodecia is a church written to by Paul, and his admonition to remain free of the teachings and doctrines of man.

The 7 churches in Revelation are each given a message, which warns of false doctrines or the teachings of man.

But at the end of chapter 12, we have in contrast the remnant or remaining people of God, which rather keep the commandments of God than earthly religious institutions. Also the same text appears in Revelation 14, when it talks about the mark of the beast.

If these texts in Revelation are just local messages, then they really have no application in the future, let alone at the end time when the mark of the beast is introduced. But Israel in OT times did not need the message about the mark of the beast, because it was not for them, it applies to us.

If we take the seven churches, seals etc in sequence with time, we have the fourth one which mentions Jezebel. Here is a clue which church is ruling - the Papacy. During the time of Jezebel there was a famine for 3 1/2 years. Luke 4:25. Does that sound familiar? Times, time, and half a time (or the dividing of time,) or three and a half years, or 42 months, or 1260 days. These are all talking about the same event and time. When ever you see this time frame in Daniel or Revelation it is talking about the "abomination that makes desolate" the truth, the persecution of the saints for 1260 years under the tyranny of the Papacy.If you place these churches into eras from John to the end of time, you can see how they each describe the plight and obstacles which each church had to face, as well as their victories.

Ephesus - was faced with false apostles and doctrines. The apostolic churchSmyrna - the blood shed of the Roman empire against Christians - the early ChristiansPergamos - the set up of Satan's seat and terrible compromises with truth - Christianity underminedThyatira - the depths of Satan and Jezebel - the Papal ruleSardis - the reformation holding on to the last.Philadelphia - the open and shut doors, coinciding with the end and beginning of the sanctuary services in heaven.Laodicea - the luke warm church, trying to fit in with the world and God at the same time.

Revelation deals with the "remnant" the last people of God on earth, wouldn't you agree?

In the beginning of the book we find admonition to be ready for the what the book offers, and also a blessing to those who read.

Seeing that this last book in the Bible deals with end time events, could this book be God's special way of looking after those who are living in our time, to help them?

If this is the case, we should expect to find some very certain ways of discerning the people of God versus the rest of the world, which will be deceived into having a form of godliness without genuine conversion.

Some have suggested that Christianity itself is enough to decide the difference between believers and unbelievers, which we all agree to, but then we suppose that there could be a lot of nominal Christians who are not converted. At this point we recognize that people of all cultures in the world, even without Christ, will be saved according to whether they have followed the promptings of the Holy Spirit in their consciences, so we cannot discriminate on profession of belief alone.

But the fact that confessing Christ is crucial in full conversion, shows that before Christ returns, the gospel must be preached in all the world, which we expect will happen, as Christ predicted.

So I expect that God will bring forward a way in which true believers can be separated from the pretentious world, who even have miracles on their side. So miracles may not be the seal which defines the church of Christ.

Do you think that Revelation identifies the last church of God or the remnant? And if so, how?

The reason I ask is because many churches hold a profession of being God's church by name alone.For example "Latter Day Saints" "Adventists" "The Church of God" "Jehovah's Witnesses" "Holiness Church"I'm sure you could think of a few others.

There are a few of options - None of the churches or religions are God's people One only is God's church Anyone can be God's church The church is not defined by an organization Selected types of churches are God's

In my opinion, the church of Christ ought to be defined by what is inside the heart, as well as how it manifests itself through an organization - by men led by the Holy Spirit. Like the days of the Apostles.

If so, that's one thing which would qualify a church to be the "remnant." We understand a remnant to be the same as the original.And here we have many claiming that too...

All believers, all that have Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour, that believe He came in the flesh, that He died and was resurrected in the "flesh" (not as an immaterial spirit) and will come again, all those people ARE the Body of Christ, all ARE the Church of Christ.

Starhunter wrote:Revelation deals with the "remnant" the last people of God on earth, wouldn't you agree?

In the beginning of the book we find admonition to be ready for the what the book offers, and also a blessing to those who read.

Seeing that this last book in the Bible deals with end time events, could this book be God's special way of looking after those who are living in our time, to help them?

If this is the case, we should expect to find some very certain ways of discerning the people of God versus the rest of the world, which will be deceived into having a form of godliness without genuine conversion.

Some have suggested that Christianity itself is enough to decide the difference between believers and unbelievers, which we all agree to, but then we suppose that there could be a lot of nominal Christians who are not converted. At this point we recognize that people of all cultures in the world, even without Christ, will be saved according to whether they have followed the promptings of the Holy Spirit in their consciences, so we cannot discriminate on profession of belief alone.

But the fact that confessing Christ is crucial in full conversion, shows that before Christ returns, the gospel must be preached in all the world, which we expect will happen, as Christ predicted.

So I expect that God will bring forward a way in which true believers can be separated from the pretentious world, who even have miracles on their side. So miracles may not be the seal which defines the church of Christ.

Do you think that Revelation identifies the last church of God or the remnant? And if so, how?

The reason I ask is because many churches hold a profession of being God's church by name alone.For example "Latter Day Saints" "Adventists" "The Church of God" "Jehovah's Witnesses" "Holiness Church"I'm sure you could think of a few others.

There are a few of options - None of the churches or religions are God's people One only is God's church Anyone can be God's church The church is not defined by an organization Selected types of churches are God's

In my opinion, the church of Christ ought to be defined by what is inside the heart, as well as how it manifests itself through an organization - by men led by the Holy Spirit. Like the days of the Apostles.

If so, that's one thing which would qualify a church to be the "remnant." We understand a remnant to be the same as the original.And here we have many claiming that too...

Look I respect that you like the Seventh Day Adventists church but I don't see why you are propping it up so much,I mean I believe SDA's teach and preach salvation through Jesus Christ and that is good and I actually like to listen to the way Seventh Day Adventists preach,it is unique how they preach but I do not like it when people prop up churches,for instance I prefer a Pentecostal church because I prefer a more lively church type environment,I persobally prefer it.

I also like the freedom in a Pentecostal church to come forward to neal at the altar to pray if somebody wants to,recieve Jesus Christ as savior and Lord,have hands laid on you,the freedom to not have hands laid on you,to be annointed with oil,to be baptised in water every Sunday and once in a blue moon you have a chance to see the power of Jesus cast out demons and it shows off the power in Jesus's name and it is a more lively church environment that I prefer but I would not prop it up so much like you do SDA.

But more importantly there is no perfect church denomination as everyone of them have doctrines of men in them that are not of God,this does not mean they are bad churches but just that they each have doctrines of man in them that should not be in them.We are a body of many members and we should focus on this more and try to be more united than divided as the body of Christ and propping up a particular denomination makes it more difficult to unite as believers with differences but all united in Jesus.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

I agree, that we can't judge a church by its members alone, even Jesus had a traitor and a thief in His group.

I'm not propping the SDA church as an organization or its people, because I am not familiar with them, but I have looked at their doctrines more closely and found that they are pretty comprehensive and sound, according to scripture.And I expect that the church of God, while it is comprised of all individuals as pointed out by Paul Sacramento, its people would be unified on sound doctrine, which includes those outlined on this forum, as Christian essentials.

I could be wrong, but I don't imagine that the people of God who stand against the devil, will be a multitude of confusion ranging from idolatry to worshiping saints. Some say that all roads lead to God, which we don't believe here, rather we recognize God's calling to every individual, in whatever situation so far as faith goes, and that they are being drawn by God to be united on truth that honors Christ.

So that verifies what you said about many different churches having their faults, but aiming for the one truth to be saved in Christ.

Of course there is the extreme of introducing a universal Christ, where the one Lord accepts all religions.

Many Christians seriously doubt that, because we know that false doctrines interfere with true worship and true faith in God.For example, we don't believe that God is vindictive or two faced as some of the gods are.

Starhunter wrote:I agree, that we can't judge a church by its members alone, even Jesus had a traitor and a thief in His group.

I'm not propping the SDA church as an organization or its people, because I am not familiar with them, but I have looked at their doctrines more closely and found that they are pretty comprehensive and sound, according to scripture.And I expect that the church of God, while it is comprised of all individuals as pointed out by Paul Sacramento, its people would be unified on sound doctrine, which includes those outlined on this forum, as Christian essentials.

I could be wrong, but I don't imagine that the people of God who stand against the devil, will be a multitude of confusion ranging from idolatry to worshiping saints. Some say that all roads lead to God, which we don't believe here, rather we recognize God's calling to every individual, in whatever situation so far as faith goes, and that they are being drawn by God to be united on truth that honors Christ.

So that verifies what you said about many different churches having their faults, but aiming for the one truth to be saved in Christ.

Of course there is the extreme of introducing a universal Christ, where the one Lord accepts all religions.

Many Christians seriously doubt that, because we know that false doctrines interfere with true worship and true faith in God.For example, we don't believe that God is vindictive or two faced as some of the gods are.

I do think SDA has its strengths and there is nothing wrong with you looking into their teachings and learning from it,I think that is good.I agree about this universal Christ doctrine where all religions lead to the same God is dangerous and a false teaching,it is another man-made doctrine that I brought up that is not biblical teaching,the only people going to heaven is those who's names are in the Lamb's book of life.God bless you,brother,perhaps I was too abrasive but I was just trying to make a point.You pointing out SDA teaching does not bother me and it is a good discussion to have,carry on and change our minds.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

Well if there is any change of mind it would have to come from a personal conviction about what the scriptures say.

It's fairly common for people who want to socialize in a church, to find the one they feel most comfortable in. And of course that varies even within a single denomination. I guess what I am looking for, is a field of wheat without tares in it, which probably does not exist, until heaven.

Last night I came across a video by chance, which initially caused me to pray to God for His reputation, as I realized that the issue in these last days is not so much about us, about being saved, but about the honor of Jesus Christ, who's name has been trampled on for thousands of years.

I had to investigate SDA's in order to talk about them, but I am lost for words.

People blame them for sticking to the Sabbath, and the commandments of God, but these doctrines were not discovered by them, but given to them from outsiders like Miller and Bates, people from other churches. In fact all their doctrines were already discovered by the Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists and you name it. They have kept whatever good thing came along and made it part of their beliefs, and they have rejected the garbage, which explains why their doctrines are Biblically sound.

But what startled me, as a people and a church, they have been given one truth that the world has not yet seen or comprehended, and the destiny of the world hangs on it being fulfilled, because it is an experience and not just a doctrine. It is the final experience God has always wanted the world to experience - the mystery of godliness -.

It isn't about self and being saved, but about allowing God to be honored to the world and to all the universe. Rev 14:7 - Give glory to God is the message, not finding the ultimate "save me" religion. It does not matter if the tares and wheat grow together, this truth is about individuals.

The world will have two gospels, two results, one of life the other of death. It is about glorifying God or not, allowing Him to exemplify His righteousness in us or not. Not of works lest any man should boast. It is done by Christ, for all those that enter into this experience and surrender. So it is inclusive for all that want it.

The world does not believe that in Christ we may live without sin, churches don't believe it. Will the world witness the unbelievable? Rev 14:5. Is the devil going to be defeated about his claims against the law of God?

There is a great deception which the world will receive if they miss out on the mystery of godliness, they will have a form of godliness without the power.This false experience is the ultimate religious experience without surrender to the commandments of God. It is antiGod.It offers, great feelings, miracles, appearances of Christ and the apostles, world participation, revival, etc.

The true experience of godliness, will be met by the wrath of the dragon, economic sanctions and the threat of death. But who wins? At this point of crisis, the Lord will return, and end the battle between good and evil.

Well techically they do teach we have to keep the sabbath yet Paul did not repeat the Sabbath as a law and the simple fact that it's been stated that Sabbath law and Mosaic LAw was for the jews. Gentiles did not follow these laws. Gentiles are Christians. SO SDA are Christians too. I mean there are some churches that are sabbath but they say your going to hell.