sniper wrote:That^ is a fair assessment, at least as far as this particular type (homologous) of blood boosting is concerned.

Far from being a specialist on this LA84 thing, my reading of the episode is that people put too much stress on the actual method (autologous vs. homologous). I've heard it claimed for instance that the cyclists of LA84 succumbed to using blood of their relatives because they hadn't enough time to organise the blood removal and storage.

It is claimed that they got the idea from an article by Canadian blood doping specialist Norman H. Gledhill. If you actually read any of Gledhill's papers on blood doping, it is apparent that he is very skeptical about the potency of autotransfusions with refrigerator stored blood. I pretty much agree with him, but he seems to underestimate the material of the data on a few studies and his claims might be tilted towards the efficacy of high-glycerol freezing method as he was one of the coauthors of the first published blood doping study using the method in 1980.

Ed Burkes claim that he found out about blooddoping through a 1983 Gledhill paper is not credible.As you pointed out earlier, he wrote his PhD under the guidance of Costill, who in turn had done an internship in Sweden at Ekblom/Astrands home institute.Furthermore, by 1982 Burke had one publication and a conference paper co-authored with Ekblom.

Burke lying about this was part of the whitewashing operation put into motion by Ed(die) and co. directly after the whole thing leaked into the press, as described by Les Earnest.

sniper wrote:Ed Burkes claim that he found out about blooddoping through a 1983 Gledhill paper is not credible.As you pointed out earlier, he wrote his PhD under the guidance of Costill, who in turn had done an internship in Sweden at Ekblom/Astrands home institute.Furthermore, by 1982 Burke had one publication and a conference paper co-authored with Ekblom.

Burke lying about this was part of the whitewashing operation put into motion by Ed(die) and co. directly after the whole thing leaked into the press, as described by Les Earnest.

Certainly Ed Burke knew about blood doping, I don't think that he has ever claimed that he heard about blood doping first time from the September 1983 issue of The Physician and Sports Medicine (interestingly, Burke had coauthored a research paper with the actual conductor of the 1984 transfusions, cardiologist Herman L. Falsetti in earlier months edition of the same journal).

My reading is that after reading the brilliant literature review by Norman Gledhill, it became apparent for him that the academic debate on the efficacy of blood doping had ended, because Gledhill pinpoints some methodological flaws in the earlier blood doping inquiries and interestingly is quite critical on the 1972 research by none-other-than Ekblom.

For one reason or another, they chose homologous transfusions. Here is quote from a well-known online article about the decision to use homologous blood doping instead of autotransfusions:

The main problem with the blood boosting scheme was that there wasn't enough time to extract blood from each athlete and let them fully replenish it by the time of the Olympics. An alternative scheme was concocted: use transfusions from friends and relatives instead. Aside from the ethical and administrative errors in this decision, it was also medically defective in two ways:

(1) according to prior medical studies, the planned transfusion of one unit of blood per rider was insufficient to improve performance and

If you actually read what Gledhill tells about autotransfusions, he has a very strong opinion that elevation of hematocrit through refrigerated blood is nearly impossible regardless how much one has time to prepare the operation. And because US team most likely had no access to high-glycerol freezing, they chose the "easier" alternative and looked for donors.

Tienus wrote:...In 1985 Joost de Maesenaar was also involved with the preparation of Panasonic team, he is now the Astana team doctor after working for CSC / Riis. While working as a doctor for DAF Trucks Harm Kuipers diagnosed van der Poel with anaemia in 1982 just days before the tour start.

I'll take a look on the paper and review the material as soons as I get a hold of a copy of the article. The earliest instances are from 1972 and the abstract says that "the author had a medical role at each of the Olympics that is discussed", but I wouldn't expect much new and revolutionary information to be revealed, but it is still interesting to read new insights about the matter.

Aragon wrote:It is my impression that the Ekblom-, Åstrand- and Gjermund Eggen - material is on the more trustworthy side of his source material. Eggen is a Norwegian triple-gold medallist cross country skier who - according to the Finnish folklore - was the "first" blood doper in the 1966 Winter Olympics. Vettenniemi claims elsewhere that he has even a contemporary newspaper source from 1966 to back up the claim that an unnamed Norwegian cross-country skier went into a hospital to elevate his blood values in 1966.

That is something I wrote a few months ago with no access to the sources of Mr. Vettenniemi.

Now he has published a brand new and quite an interesting book titled Suomalainen Hiihtodoping: Punssia, Pillereitä ja Punasoluja ("Finnish Ski Doping: Punsch, Pills and Red Blood Cells") released almost exactly a week ago. His blog entry a year ago promised that he had a good source about Eggen:

Reporting from Holmenkollen, a Finnish journalist briefly referred to an unnamed Norwegian whose red blood cell mass had been topped up in a clinic. In today’s parlance, the anonymous athlete had resorted to blood packing, a procedure which, especially in endurance events, gives the recipient an enormous boost.

But now it seems that his source could be just an idiosyncratic reading of one sentence in a 1966 newspaper, because in the recent book he writes the following:

According to an suggestive preliminary article on the 1966 games, one "Norwegian who had acquired/(obtained) red blood cells from Switzerland" was one of the gold candidates at the 30 km race.

The reference is very murky and without going to deeply into how to apply the Finnish-language verb "hankkia" (ie. "acquire/obtain"), the sentence can refer to blood doping or to high altitude training or other methods than physically infusing blood.

- Moser was working with a Polish trainer named Andrzej Żmuda, "he was the precursor to the preparatori like Ferrari and Conconi. He understood how blood values affected performance and in that sense he changed the direction of cycling. It was through him that Moser started to understand the importance of haemoglobin levels in the blood. [...] Żmuda didn't last long but it was the beginning of a big change."

- "Then in Belgium they'd prepare with hormones extracted from a monkey's kidney, and allied to iron injections it gave you an increase in red blood cells. So when I was in Belgium I had to find a way to get hold of that, because you can't just sit back and watch your rider lose."

And this tale:

- "In 1982 I was with Hoonved, and the patron was a guy from Varese named Erminio Dall'Oglio. At the time, Roberto Sassi was their athletics trainer, and they brainwashed me into accepting his brother Aldo to train me. So I followed his training methods, and he arranged for me to meet with Dr Conconi. He's become a sort of scapegoat for blood doping, but for me he was a person worthy of respect. He simply said, 'Look, if you want to transfuse, that's fine, but it's entirely up to you. The only thing is that if you choose not to do it, the others will overtake you.' I chose not to do it because I didn't trust it, and my career suffered as a consequence. Dino Zandegù, my DS, used to say, 'Mario, you can't go to war with rubber bullets!' But it was my choice and I wanted it to be my career.”

- Moser was working with a Polish trainer named Andrzej Żmuda, "he was the precursor to the preparatori like Ferrari and Conconi. He understood how blood values affected performance and in that sense he changed the direction of cycling. It was through him that Moser started to understand the importance of haemoglobin levels in the blood. [...] Żmuda didn't last long but it was the beginning of a big change."

- "Then in Belgium they'd prepare with hormones extracted from a monkey's kidney, and allied to iron injections it gave you an increase in red blood cells. So when I was in Belgium I had to find a way to get hold of that, because you can't just sit back and watch your rider lose."

And this tale:

- "In 1982 I was with Hoonved, and the patron was a guy from Varese named Erminio Dall'Oglio. At the time, Roberto Sassi was their athletics trainer, and they brainwashed me into accepting his brother Aldo to train me. So I followed his training methods, and he arranged for me to meet with Dr Conconi. He's become a sort of scapegoat for blood doping, but for me he was a person worthy of respect. He simply said, 'Look, if you want to transfuse, that's fine, but it's entirely up to you. The only thing is that if you choose not to do it, the others will overtake you.' I chose not to do it because I didn't trust it, and my career suffered as a consequence. Dino Zandegù, my DS, used to say, 'Mario, you can't go to war with rubber bullets!' But it was my choice and I wanted it to be my career.”

Interesting piece. I am guessing the Mario was Mario Beccia who was one of the better Italian riders in the 80s, winner of Fleche Wallone and regular Giro Top 10 finisher. I think there is little doubt there was experimentation with blood doping in Italian cycling, but it didn't seem very effective as Italian cycling was relatively weak on the international stage apart from maybe Moser/Saronni.

I have an interesting quote from Roberto Visentini on blood doping if I can dig it up.

pmcg76 wrote:Interesting piece. I am guessing the Mario was Mario Beccia who was one of the better Italian riders in the 80s, winner of Fleche Wallone and regular Giro Top 10 finisher. I think there is little doubt there was experimentation with blood doping in Italian cycling, but it didn't seem very effective as Italian cycling was relatively weak on the international stage apart from maybe Moser/Saronni.

I have an interesting quote from Roberto Visentini on blood doping if I can dig it up.

Beccia, yes. The date is what is of interest to me. (Maybe also the involvement of the Blessèd Aldo.) The Italians at this stage were past experimentation - this is after Donati first crossed paths with Conconi, don't forget - and the evidence, slight as it still is, increasingly suggests blood doping among road cyclists at this time was much more common than accepted wisdom allows. It not being effective for the Italians: could it be that others were as advanced?

The Visentini quote would be interesting to see: does it suggest the use of transfusions Inoxpran/Carrera?

It has always been my impression that the total picture of blood doping use in the 1970s remains still unwritten. Still, it should be emphasized that the serious and public accusations against Viren began only after the 1976 Summer Olympics and even then the scientific community was very ambivalent on whether it even enhanced performance, so one shouldn't directly jump into the conclusion that everyone started blood doping even in 1976.

After going through the newspaper search engines, historian John Gleaves came to this conclusion in his Manufactured Dope (2015) claiming that "[u]nsubstantiated allegations linked the Finnish runner, Lasse Viren, to blood transfusions at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich, though they did not begin circulating until after his success at the Montreal Olympic Games [of 1976]".

The spirit of the sentence is sound even when there was some gossip about Finns even before that. Track & Field News journalist Cordner Nelson for instance wrote in 1972 right after the Viren's success that there already existed some whispering about Finns having a secret method.

"First Juha, Now Lasse and Friends", Track and Field News, 9/1972The urgent question was: How are they doing it? At first, "blood doping" was suspected. This badly-named procedure had nothing to do with drugs. It consists of removing blood from a runner to stimulate production of oxygen-carrying red blood cells in his bone marrow. Then his own blood cells are returned to the runner and, theoretically, he is able to run better because of this greater oxygen supply. Vaatainen was thought to use this procedure because people at the 1971 European Championships heard stories of blood transfusions. But Vaatainen's success could also be explained by natural speed which made him a 10.9 100 meter sprinter plus long training runs totaling as much as 200 miles a week. And Scandinavians at Munich denied any "blood doping".

While these type of speculations are hard to find from the pre-1976 publications, I find it very interesting that the "stories of blood transfusions" described in this particular article were circulated some two months before it was revealed in newspaper articles in September 1971 that there was blood reinfusion research originating from Sweden.

yaco wrote:Blood doping is known to have been used by Lasse Viren in the 1972 and 1976 Olympic Games - Doubt cycling would be 10 or 15 years behind.

Before throwing in your tuppence worth (and I may be over-valuing your contribution - I'm in a generous mood) do you think you could at least skim some of the early pages of this discussion? I really don't feel like repeats... TIA.

yaco wrote:Blood doping is known to have been used by Lasse Viren in the 1972 and 1976 Olympic Games - Doubt cycling would be 10 or 15 years behind.

Before throwing in your tuppence worth (and I may be over-valuing your contribution - I'm in a generous mood) do you think you could at least skim some of the early pages of this discussion? I really don't feel like repeats... TIA.

My post is discussing whether blood doping in cycling would be years and years behind other endurance sports, like athletics - When you discover that countries both in the eastern bloc and western bloc had systemic doping programs, that covered a variety of sports - Then you consider that countries used leading doctors/researchers for these programs - It's conceivable that cycling would not be too far behind, the cutting edge in blood doping - I thoroughly read every thread before making a contribution.

yaco wrote:Blood doping is known to have been used by Lasse Viren in the 1972 and 1976 Olympic Games - Doubt cycling would be 10 or 15 years behind.

Before throwing in your tuppence worth (and I may be over-valuing your contribution - I'm in a generous mood) do you think you could at least skim some of the early pages of this discussion? I really don't feel like repeats... TIA.

My post is discussing whether blood doping in cycling would be years and years behind other endurance sports, like athletics - When you discover that countries both in the eastern bloc and western bloc had systemic doping programs, that covered a variety of sports - Then you consider that countries used leading doctors/researchers for these programs - It's conceivable that cycling would not be too far behind, the cutting edge in blood doping - I thoroughly read every thread before making a contribution.

We're 14 pages into this. I really do suggest you at least skim, cause so far you've not said nothing new. And what you have said suggests you don't know what's previously been posted. TIA.

pmcg76 wrote:Interesting piece. I am guessing the Mario was Mario Beccia who was one of the better Italian riders in the 80s, winner of Fleche Wallone and regular Giro Top 10 finisher. I think there is little doubt there was experimentation with blood doping in Italian cycling, but it didn't seem very effective as Italian cycling was relatively weak on the international stage apart from maybe Moser/Saronni.

I have an interesting quote from Roberto Visentini on blood doping if I can dig it up.

Beccia, yes. The date is what is of interest to me. (Maybe also the involvement of the Blessèd Aldo.) The Italians at this stage were past experimentation - this is after Donati first crossed paths with Conconi, don't forget - and the evidence, slight as it still is, increasingly suggests blood doping among road cyclists at this time was much more common than accepted wisdom allows. It not being effective for the Italians: could it be that others were as advanced?

The Visentini quote would be interesting to see: does it suggest the use of transfusions Inoxpran/Carrera?

Ok, dug it up with another interesting anecodte, the first is from a book that was published annually in the UK about the Giro and Tour, it was simply titled Tour 86 published by Kennedy Bros. This refers to the success of Guido Bontempi winning 5 stages at the Giro in 86.This was to be Bontempi's best season winning Ghent-Wevelgem and 3 stages at the Tour. Bontempi did test positive at the Tour in 87.

".....but it was again Bontempi who surged over the line for his third victory of the race, paying tribute afterward to the team doctor, transferred from Mosers entourage and the same doctor who advised Moser on the preparation for his hour record preparation"

The Visentini bit is from Winning magazine review of the 86 Giro. i][/i]Visentini rebuffed the cynics who said he owed his Giro victory to the training regime imposed on his squad by a doctor from the team formed by Professor Conconi to help Moser break the World Hour record in 1984.Visentini said at a press conference after receiving his final pink jersey, "I am one of the few riders who doesnt follow all this advice. For one thing, I would never volunteer to undergo a blood transfusion".

Carrera did have a fantastic season in 86, Bontempi, Visentini and Urs Zimmermann all had super years in 86. In neither example does it mention who the doctor was, clearly not Conconi himself, was it Ferrari?? I know Ferrari worked with Mosers team in 87 so did he possibly jumps ship for a season or was it someone else? Roche did have his super season in 87, but then Zimmerman was rubbish that same season whilst Bontempi was nowhere near as good.

pmcg76 wrote:The Visentini bit is from Winning magazine review of the 86 Giro.

Visentini rebuffed the cynics who said he owed his Giro victory to the training regime imposed on his squad by a doctor from the team formed by Professor Conconi to help Moser break the World Hour record in 1984.Visentini said at a press conference after receiving his final pink jersey, "I am one of the few riders who doesnt follow all this advice. For one thing, I would never volunteer to undergo a blood transfusion".

That quote is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for, thanks for digging it out.

pmcg76 wrote:In neither example does it mention who the doctor was, clearly not Conconi himself, was it Ferrari?? I know Ferrari worked with Mosers team in 87 so did he possibly jumps ship for a season or was it someone else? Roche did have his super season in 87, but then Zimmerman was rubbish that same season whilst Bontempi was nowhere near as good.

Aragon wrote:It has always been my impression that the total picture of blood doping use in the 1970s remains still unwritten. Still, it should be emphasized that the serious and public accusations against Viren began only after the 1976 Summer Olympics and even then the scientific community was very ambivalent on whether it even enhanced performance, so one shouldn't directly jump into the conclusion that everyone started blood doping even in 1976.

After going through the newspaper search engines, historian John Gleaves came to this conclusion in his Manufactured Dope (2015) claiming that "[u]nsubstantiated allegations linked the Finnish runner, Lasse Viren, to blood transfusions at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich, though they did not begin circulating until after his success at the Montreal Olympic Games [of 1976]".

The spirit of the sentence is sound even when there was some gossip about Finns even before that. Track & Field News journalist Cordner Nelson for instance wrote in 1972 right after the Viren's success that there already existed some whispering about Finns having a secret method.

"First Juha, Now Lasse and Friends", Track and Field News, 9/1972The urgent question was: How are they doing it? At first, "blood doping" was suspected. This badly-named procedure had nothing to do with drugs. It consists of removing blood from a runner to stimulate production of oxygen-carrying red blood cells in his bone marrow. Then his own blood cells are returned to the runner and, theoretically, he is able to run better because of this greater oxygen supply. Vaatainen was thought to use this procedure because people at the 1971 European Championships heard stories of blood transfusions. But Vaatainen's success could also be explained by natural speed which made him a 10.9 100 meter sprinter plus long training runs totaling as much as 200 miles a week. And Scandinavians at Munich denied any "blood doping".

While these type of speculations are hard to find from the pre-1976 publications, I find it very interesting that the "stories of blood transfusions" described in this particular article were circulated some two months before it was revealed in newspaper articles in September 1971 that there was blood reinfusion research originating from Sweden.

I heard it first hand from an athlete on (or very close to) the athletics national team that there was blood doping offered to him. So in my mind it is a fact, not just smoke without fire. Not sure about Viren, who still denies it. But of course, why would he not take advantage of it since it was not even forbidden at the time!

accushift wrote:I heard it first hand from an athlete on (or very close to) the athletics national team that there was blood doping offered to him. So in my mind it is a fact, not just smoke without fire. Not sure about Viren, who still denies it. But of course, why would he not take advantage of it since it was not even forbidden at the time!

This anecdote dates to ... when? The offer was made when?

As for the leap of logic that the knowledge was out there, others were using it, QED Virén was using it ... that sounds familiar...

accushift wrote:I heard it first hand from an athlete on (or very close to) the athletics national team that there was blood doping offered to him. So in my mind it is a fact, not just smoke without fire. Not sure about Viren, who still denies it. But of course, why would he not take advantage of it since it was not even forbidden at the time!

With the current knowledge on matter, it is now pretty much beyond debate that there was some type of blood transfusion culture in the Finnish sports community starting around the turn of the 1960s and 1970s and going on until at least mid-1980s.

This was confirmed even from pretty early on. When the subject of blood doping issue emerged into the limelight in the fall of 1971 when Swedish researchers published their findings, some Finnish runners, coaches and sports doctors told publicly that they were aware that transfusions had been administered in the sports circles and that there was a lot of gossip about the practice going on.

Since then there have been two public and a few anonymous confessions and some other material and at least one runner (Esa Tikkanen, 3rd Boston Marathon 1978) has claimed that he was offered access to the method during his active career.

That having been written, the material is far from abundant and very contradictory, and many details remain murky. The magnitude of who participated into the program will never be known, but there are still question marks around subjects such as the origins of the blood doping program, whether autotransfusions were used and even whether Finnish sports medicine community really were under the impression that it could be advantageous to elevate hematocrit levels above the "natural" value of 45 %.

If Viren blood doped, I have always found some of the circumstantial evidence not totally convincing. It has been claimed that he peaked during Olympic years, totally true. On the other hand, during those years he performed very well even up to a month or two before the Olympic games.

For instance, here he finishes the 10000m run only some two seconds slower than he did at the 1976 Montreal games a month later. The same pattern held true also before Munich four years earlier when he broke the 2-mile world record and ran some of the fastest times of the season (5000m/13:19.0; 5000m 27:52.4).