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Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

They were 20-18 with an easier schedule the rest of the way. And yes the players gave up on O'Brien. So 20-18 isn't that big of a deal.

I was not a believer in Vogel at all until the 2011 playoff series against the Bulls, that is what changed my mind about him. The February, March and April regular season was not impressive to me really.

The one thing you guys on the "easier schedule" argument will never answer me is how then did we beat the Hawks & the Bucks? You do realize that when O'Brien was our coach we had lost several games in a row to both teams and in fact would lose to the Hawks quit frequently by double digits. Yet since Vogel has taken over we have winning records vs. both of them.

No I'm sorry but we were the weaker schedule prior to O'Brien being fired. In other words when teams looked at the calendar saw our names on it and marked it off as an easy game.

When O'Brien was fired he was 10 games below .500 in fact his tenure in Indiana was below .500% Vogel was not the beneficiary of any type of magic trick or schedule fluke, he changed the entire structure of the team.

From day one he said Danny Granger was going to take better shots, he said we were going to play a smash mouth style of game. In other words were going to take everything that Jim O'Brien did as a coach and throw it out the window and guess what, it worked.

Instead of Roy Hibbert playing 20 min a game in the high post he started running a double low post offense. Instead of James Posey getting the most min. of any of our power forwards he deactivated him & played him one time the rest of the year. Instead of a passing motion offense he put the ball back in our point guards hands & Darren Collison started to play much better.

Why did the players give up on Jim O'Brien? Many coach's are hated by their players as you have said, but they don't as a group collectively give up very often so why now? The answer is simple and not complex at all. You can get by with being a disciplinarian and even somewhat of miserable person if you are a winner, but when your system doesn't win & you can't or won't adapt to any other system then the players you have are going to lose faith in you.

I'll accept a lot of stuff about O’Brien’s time here but I won't EVER accept people saying the team only played better because of an easier schedule and even though you also threw in the caveat that the team had given up on O'Brien I won't accept that either because it implies that the team would have had a winning record the rest of the season under Jim & that was just never going to happen.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Why did the players give up on Jim O'Brien? Many coach's are hated by their players as you have said, but they don't as a group collectively give up very often so why now?

You were OK until here. Teams give up on coaches all the time. Heck, that's one of the reasons for Bird's famous Three Year Limit - in fact, had he FOLLOWED that limit with JOB (though I understand why it made more sense given the upcoming dynamics of the team to try to get just one more season out of him before flipping the switch) we probably wouldn't be having quite this vehement and argument about him even this long after he was gone.

"'Tis the ghost! The ghost! The horrible macabre spectre of Jim O'Brien that haunts these halls..."

BillS

"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Instead of James Posey getting the most min. of any of our power forwards he deactivated him & played him one time the rest of the year.

Not entirely accurate. Posey played 8 games under Vogel. However he only saw 10+ minutes in four of those eight. MUCH better than what we saw earlier that year.

Btw, Posey totaled 17 points and 18 rebounds in those 8 games.

Last edited by Sandman21; 08-21-2012 at 01:27 PM.

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

The one thing you guys on the "easier schedule" argument will never answer me is how then did we beat the Hawks & the Bucks? You do realize that when O'Brien was our coach we had lost several games in a row to both teams and in fact would lose to the Hawks quit frequently by double digits. Yet since Vogel has taken over we have winning records vs. both of them.

I don't see what that has to do with stating a fact that the schedule by record of our opponents was easier from February on than it had been from November through January. I mean that isn't the whole story, but it should be mentioned because it is a fact.

No I'm sorry but we were the weaker schedule prior to O'Brien being fired. In other words when teams looked at the calendar saw our names on it and marked it off as an easy game.

That really doesn't make much sense. So are you saying that the league wide impression of the pacers changed after Jim was fired. And that impression even made it down to the players. I'm not buying that. Record of opponents before vs record of opponents after the firing was quite a difference.

When O'Brien was fired he was 10 games below .500 in fact his tenure in Indiana was below .500% Vogel was not the beneficiary of any type of magic trick or schedule fluke, he changed the entire structure of the team.

That shows how Jim had lost the team completely as they were losing games. I think a 4-13 record in Jim's last 17 games proves that.

From day one he said Danny Granger was going to take better shots, he said we were going to play a smash mouth style of game. In other words were going to take everything that Jim O'Brien did as a coach and throw it out the window and guess what, it worked.

Yes he did say that and it worked OK. I mean 20-18 with an easier schedule and with the natural honeymoon period after an unpopular coach is fired, I mean 20-18 is OK.

Instead of Roy Hibbert playing 20 min a game in the high post he started running a double low post offense. Instead of James Posey getting the most min. of any of our power forwards he deactivated him & played him one time the rest of the year. Instead of a passing motion offense he put the ball back in our point guards hands & Darren Collison started to play much better.

I grant you all that, and I never argued against any of those things.

Why did the players give up on Jim O'Brien? Many coach's are hated by their players as you have said, but they don't as a group collectively give up very often so why now? The answer is simple and not complex at all. You can get by with being a disciplinarian and even somewhat of miserable person if you are a winner, but when your system doesn't win & you can't or won't adapt to any other system then the players you have are going to lose faith in you.

I lot of teams to varying degrees give up on their coach, that is nothing new. As you will recall after Jim's 3rd season I posted that he should not be brought back for a 4th.

I'll accept a lot of stuff about O’Brien’s time here but I won't EVER accept people saying the team only played better because of an easier schedule and even though you also threw in the caveat that the team had given up on O'Brien I won't accept that either because it implies that the team would have had a winning record the rest of the season under Jim & that was just never going to happen.

The schedule was a factor, that is all I ever said. I know I never said the only factor - not even close.

What would they have done the rest of that season? who knows, but if the relationship in that 4th season had been as good (or as bad) as it was towards the end of the 1st or 2nd season - I think 20-18 give or take a few games was likely very reasonable. The nfact is though the relationship had gotten really bad so a change was needed and I am glad it was made , although it should have been made prior to that season.

just an aside - I could if I wanted go back to Jim's last few weeks and find post after post of many on here saying that Jim had so ruined the team and the players that they will never recover - many were ruined for life - or so many suggested in this forum. Well obviously that didn't turn out to be true at all. Even Roy seemed to have recovered - shocking

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Yes he did say that and it worked OK. I mean 20-18 with an easier schedule and with the natural honeymoon period after an unpopular coach is fired, I mean 20-18 is OK.

Its also probably about 12 more games than Jim would have won (for example, I don't think we win against Cleveland in Vogel's second game if JOB was still coaching (CLEVELAND! IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT RIDICULOUS LOSING STREAK!), we wouldn't have beaten Minnesota at home when Dahntay heated up and couldn't miss in the 4th quarter, Charlotte and Detroit at home (both 1 point wins), probably wouldn't have won those. The home and home series with the Knicks after the near meltdown during the Texas trip, definitely wouldn't have won those what with Jim thinking Posey could guard Amare. The OT win against Chicago? Nope. And on and on.

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Its also probably about 12 more games than Jim would have won (for example, I don't think we win against Cleveland in Vogel's second game if JOB was still coaching (CLEVELAND! IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT RIDICULOUS LOSING STREAK!), we wouldn't have beaten Minnesota at home when Dahntay heated up and couldn't miss in the 4th quarter, Charlotte and Detroit at home (both 1 point wins), probably wouldn't have won those. The home and home series with the Knicks after the near meltdown during the Texas trip, definitely wouldn't have won those what with Jim thinking Posey could guard Amare. The OT win against Chicago? Nope. And on and on.

so they would have been 8-30. actually maybe so as he had lost the team.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

You're saying had JOB stayed, it is reasonable to say we would have gone 20-18? Is that what I'm hearing?

No,(you really took that out of context) I said if the player - coach relationship had been the same as it was in Jim's first and second season, then I think yes 20-18 give or take a few games, would be reasonable. I mean maybe they woulkd have been two games less 18-20 - but about the same. I don't know why but they usually played well to end the seasons under Jim. They typically started OK and finished OK.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

so they would have been 8-30. actually maybe so as he had lost the team.

Considering he had quit on them first.....

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

No, I said if the player - coach relationship had been the same as it was in Jim's first and second season, then I think yes 20-18 give or take a few games, would be reasonable. I mean maybe they woulkd have been two games less 18-20 - but about the same. I don't know why but they usually played well to end the seasons under Jim. They typically started OK and finished OK.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

When opposing teams go into the next game, they look at trends. Is the team hot? Is a player hot that they are riding? How can we make them uncomfortable in what they are doing well?

After Vogel took over, they were energized and on the go. When teams adjusted and scouted, the team lost a series of games in a row (I think 6). Many flipped out there, like it was doomsday. Vogel and team made adjustments. And going into the Bulls series he made HUGE adjustments.

At one time the Bucks last year might have been considered a tough game.

Jan 20 they beat the Knicks at the garden by 14
Jan 22 they take their talents to South Beach and win 9 (Holding the Heat to 82 points)
Jan 23 they get beat by home cause Dunleavy throws the ball away and misses a three, forcing them to foul
Jan 25 they go to Houston and win by 5
Jan 27 they get beat by 7 to the Bulls
next night they beat the Lakers by 11 at home
Jan 30 they beat the Pistons
Feb 1 they beat the Heat....again

Feb 3 they played the Pistons. Now do you think the Pistons are thinking, "hey its the Bucks..we should win this". No. Because on fans think wins and loses are givens. The Bucks were the 9th best team in the East by record. Just like we were for 2 years. Even at our worst teams didn't just chalk it up as a win, we got hot.

The only difference is we have a system that is sustainable with the players we currently have.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Why are you comparing a record of 38 total games with records of 12 total games? Expand on those records to make them closer game wise, and I bet you'll start seeing the differences.

I am well aware of the difference. Jim's teams were horrible in the middle part of the seasons.

No, my point is not to compare 20-18 vs Jim's years. but to point out for whatever reason Jim always ended each season strong. So if the player - coach relationsship still would have been as it was in previous seasons I don't think a 20-18 wou;ld have been unreasonable. Or maybe just a good March and April then.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

No, my point is not to compare 20-18 vs Jim's years. but to point out for whatever reason Jim always ended each season strong. So if the player - coach relationsship still would have been as it was in previous seasons I don't think a 20-18 wou;ld have been unreasonable. Or maybe just a good March and April then.

Yeah we always ended strong enough not to get Eric Gordon and not good enough to get playoff experience. What is the W-L under JOB against teams over .500 not resting for the playoffs?

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

You are correct. I think I counted '09 twice. I hate when they don't coinsider the year in which the season ends as the number to use for the season. I always count the 2009-2010 as the 2010 season - I think that was why I counted the same season twice.

But OK, I'll go back and change my prior post. Still not that far off. 17-21 is still only 3 games from 20-18

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

I don't agree with that at all. Remember all the negative comments once Carlisle left and from former Pacer players who were traded. Players critisize their former coach all the time. This is the NBA. It happened after Larry Brown left, happened after Isiah left. Only time I don't remember it happening here is when Bird left, but the team was changed so much that summer and they did just get to the NBA Finals.

what is unusual is for a player to be critical of their current coach. But former coach - it is open sesason

Was it worse with JOB, maybe, but I don't see it that much worse. Seemed pretty typical to me

That may be something you've seen. But I've never seen it that bad. Maybe part of it was the youth, and forgetting they could have to work with him again/forgetting professionalism. I'll give you that. But for the most part, that team was made up of intelligent professional young guys. And I honestly think it pretty well shows how bad of a coach he is..and the level of disdain shows how he likely treated the guys too..

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

The one thing you guys on the "easier schedule" argument will never answer me is how then did we beat the Hawks & the Bucks?

I'm sorry, but this is just inane. You do realize that the one game we won that season against the Hawks was because Josh Smith (who almost always shoots over 500 against us) was out right? The bucks games were we in were always 50/50 games.

I'll accept a lot of stuff about O’Brien’s time here but I won't EVER accept people saying the team only played better because of an easier schedule and even though you also threw in the caveat that the team had given up on O'Brien I won't accept that either because it implies that the team would have had a winning record the rest of the season under Jim & that was just never going to happen.

You can believe what you want, but the numbers don't lie.

Anyway, I am super happy that Jim got hired by Mavs. If any of our players suck this year, we can always threaten to trade them to Mavericks. That should light a fire under them.

Also, I hope this teaches the players that whatever you do to quit on coaches or whatever, it might bite you later. So you shouldn't do that.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Many here forget that the Pacers went into a winning streak and were able to make it to the playoffs after firing the clown because Vogel let Tyler play, Tyler was a huge part at the end of the season destroying teams, I don't think that would have happen with Posey in his place.

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

I really wanted to stay out of this topic, but then you posted. Sorry Peck.

I'm sorry, but this is just inane. You do realize that the one game we won that season against the Hawks was because Josh Smith (who almost always shoots over 500 against us) was out right? The bucks games were we in were always 50/50 games.

You can believe what you want, but the numbers don't lie.

Anyway, I am super happy that Jim got hired by Mavs. If any of our players suck this year, we can always threaten to trade them to Mavericks. That should light a fire under them.

Also, I hope this teaches the players that whatever you do to quit on coaches or whatever, it might bite you later. So you shouldn't do that.

Yes that's it, it was Josh Smith being out because Al Horford, Joe Johnson & Kirk Hinrich never gave us any trouble. It had nothing to do with the fact that James Posey did not play and that Tyler & Josh combined for 21 points & 12 rebounds while actually playing interior defense. It had nothing to do with our team only shooting 13 three point attempts instead of the usual 20+ it had nothing to do with us as a team outrebounding the Hawks 49 to 36.

No it was all because Josh Smith didn't play.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

Many here forget that the Pacers went into a winning streak and were able to make it to the playoffs after firing the clown because Vogel let Tyler play, Tyler was a huge part at the end of the season destroying teams, I don't think that would have happen with Posey in his place.

Actually Tyler had been starting under Jim and Frank moved him to the bench.

Also you do realize that the Pacers longest winning streak was 4 games and that was the first 4 frank coached against easy schedule

Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

I would say it was 5 games. The famous 5 game winning streak when Jim didn't have Troy and was forced to play "the wrong way". We probably had a dozen 10 page threads during that stretch (pardon the pun...).