Rose, Mary Helen

ORAL HISTORY OF MARY HELEN OWEN ROSE
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
October 11, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: Well this is Keith McDaniel and today is October 11, 2012. And I am at the home of Mary Helen Owen Rose here in Oak Ridge. Ms. Rose, thank you for taking time to speak with us.
MS. ROSE: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start at the beginning. Why don't you tell me where you were born and something about your family and where you went to school?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm. Okay. I was born in Cash, Arkansas. And after I was through high school and had actually taught school three years on an emergency certificate, I came to Chattanooga at the urging of my aunt and uncle, who lived there. I went to the University of Chattanooga a year, and I met my husband, John Owen, who was from Cleveland, Tennessee. He was on the GI Bill there. I went to school a year there, and then I started working for TVA.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's get back to your childhood for just a minute.
MS. ROSE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were born in Cash, Arkansas.
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you mind telling me what year you were born?
MS. ROSE: 1928.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1928, right before the Depression.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was Cash a small town? Did you have brothers and sisters?
MS. ROSE: It was a community - a rural community of about 300.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: And yes, I had four brothers and sisters. And we were on a farm, growing cotton and corn and hay. And yes, we worked in the fields. We had no slaves there at all; we did all of our own work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: We worked very hard. I've always heard in more recent years, that somebody that, when you have picked cotton, everything else in life is easy for you. And I've relied on that a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: So that's helped me a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: How old were you when you started picking cotton?
MS. ROSE: Well, just three or four years old I was going to the field. I doubt if I was picking any amount at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Now was that your parents' farm, or were they sharecropping?
MS. ROSE: They were sharecropping then. But we later bought a farm under that FHA program that came in. It was new, for people in the rural area, where they loaned money. They had about four styles of houses and they had barns and outhouses and everything else were all the same.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: So yes, that was a considerable improvement for us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now is that what your parents did full time, the farm?
MS. ROSE: Yes. Well, my father worked at the cotton gin usually through the fall to make money.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: He later drove a school bus some on the side too --
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MS. ROSE: -- when school buses came in. There was a time when we were walking two miles to school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: But school buses did come in.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now so you went to school there. Was it in Cash or was it a nearby town?
MS. ROSE: It was a very, very small school. There were eight of us who graduated in my class. And in the high school there were two high school teachers, and we just took the basic minimum courses to graduate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. And what year did you graduate?
MS. ROSE: 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: So in '46 you left --
MS. ROSE: One of our teachers had gone off to the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: Teachers didn't go to the service, well, they followed their husbands who went off to war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So when you graduated high school you moved to Chattanooga, you said.
MS. ROSE: Well, first I went to Arkansas State a little --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: -- at the urging of the county school superintendent or something. They couldn't find a teacher for one small school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: And I went to Arkansas State College enough to get an emergency certificate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because there weren't enough teachers.
MS. ROSE: That's right. But then after I had taught three years, they were starting to require that teachers had at least two years of college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: The last year I was teaching, I saved all the money I could, even picking cotton on Saturdays when I was off to go back to school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. And you moved to Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What made you choose Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: My aunt and uncle were there. They urged me to come there and live with them and go to the University of Chattanooga, which was a private university then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it?
MS. ROSE: Yeah, that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And it was the University of Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that - did that eventually become part of the UT system?
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: UT Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see. I see. So you went there, and what did you study? And did you graduate?
MS. ROSE: Well, I started taking commercial subjects, mainly because I wanted to get a part-time job and all. And then I was only able to go a year. And so I was in good shape to get a job at TVA, --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: -- which that was the good place to work there, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. So you got a job at TVA at what, about ‘50, late ‘40s?
MS. ROSE: Well, we came here in '53, so I had - it was about '51.
MR. MCDANIEL: '50, '51 or so?
MS. ROSE: Yes because I worked about two years there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? And you met your - you said you met your husband, who was from Cleveland, Tennessee.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was he in school when you met him?
MS. ROSE: Yes, he was in school on a GI Bill.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MS. ROSE: And after a while I moved from my aunt and uncle's house to a dormitory there, right near the university. And he was in a dormitory; the one that's under the football stadiums there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: So we ate at the cafeteria every day, you know, so that's where we met.
MR. MCDANIEL: You met and then you got married?
MS. ROSE: We got married in December of '51, and he graduated in June of '52.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: And so then he took a job here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did he study? What was his--
MS. ROSE: Oh, he studied engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: It was industrial engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And so he got a job here, and at that time that three-plant expansion was going on for Oak Ridge and Paducah and Portsmouth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: And so they did all the engineering here, and the purchasing for that too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Yeah.
MS. ROSE: So he got a job, and all he had to do was apply to get a job. And we came up here actually with Sam and Jimmy Hurt. Sam went to school down there on a football scholarship, and he graduated with John. But we brought them up here with just everything they had was in our car, and John decided to apply here while he was here, and he got a job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And then I came on up here and applied for office work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I went to work in the Central Purchasing Division offices, about where the Hospital is now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: So I worked there about four years. And then - well, I quit once for the birth of my first child, and then I went back and worked a while longer, but then had a second child.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: So after about two or three years, I decided to go back to work. I remember the employment office was there near the Purchasing Division, and --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: -- when I interviewed there they asked whether I wanted to go back to Purchasing. I said, "Not necessarily. I think I've prepared enough purchase orders," and I went out to ORNL and got a job in the Chemistry Division.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: So let's go back to you and your husband; you came up here in '53 --
MS. ROSE: We went to the Brick Apartments. All couples lived in the Brick Apartments then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. So you came up here and he got a job and then you got a job in purchasing, and he was working on the Uranium Enrichment Expansion program.
MS. ROSE: That's right. He was in instrument engineering here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Okay. So you were young, you didn't - and when did you have your first child, what year?
MS. ROSE: Well, 1953. We came here in January, and they used to joke around here that it's in the water.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: Well, all couples came here and they immediately had a pregnancy. And so I wasn't here long until I was expecting.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you didn't have much time to spend as a couple with no kids in Oak Ridge, did you?
MS. ROSE: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, you were --
MS. ROSE: Yeah, that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- you had done that in Chattanooga, so.
MS. ROSE: Well, we hadn't been --
MR. MCDANIEL: Hadn't been married long.
MS. ROSE: That's right; just a year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MS. ROSE: So, yeah, I was 25 when I had my first child, Linda.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. So you had your first child and you stayed home for a while, then you decided you wanted to go back to work.
MS. ROSE: Well, I actually - I thought I was going to stay home endlessly, but when our first daughter was about three months old and my husband became ill --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: -- and I foresaw then that there would be extra expenses, and I went back to work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. I see. So you went back to work and you went to work at the Chemistry Division at ORNL.
MS. ROSE: Well, no, at that time I went back to Purchasing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, went back to Purchasing.
MS. ROSE: So I had two stints at Purchasing that totaled about four years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
MS. ROSE: But then when - I was going to stay home again the second time, but we moved in with - well, out of the Brick Apartments. As soon as you could take a certificate from the doctor that you were expecting, you could get on the list to get a cemesto house, a two bedroom.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: And so we got a “B” house there on Outer Drive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: And we lived there a while. But they came along and sold those cemesto houses to the owner, but we didn't keep ours, because we would have if it had a good lot, but it was right up near the street there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: So, but those East Village houses came in and they were great, you know, they were new.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: So we moved to East Village and we lived there about three years. And those were great when they were new.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where on East Village, where did you live?
MS. ROSE: Well, it was Edison Lane.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MS. ROSE: Going up East Drive it was the last house on the left.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yes. Yes.
MS. ROSE: And so, but that was great because there were young people there with kids, all of them, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But they came along later and sold those, and you had the first priority, and we intended to buy ours, but at first they jacked up the prices a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my.
MS. ROSE: And so we didn't buy ours, but then somebody else did and we had to move out. But they later had to come down on the price.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But anyhow, that's when I said, "I'm just going to go back to work and we can save up money for a down payment and build us a house."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: And that's what we did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: So I worked - I went to work off and on, but if you are a secretary you can pretty well get a job when you want it, most anywhere you go.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. And is that what you did?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: You worked as a secretary?
MS. ROSE: That's right. Well, yes, I took those commercial courses in Chattanooga, and I even studied accounting and all that too. And I later studied to become a certified professional secretary, and I went to the UT evening school some too.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was when you were working at the Lab?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Now you said you went to work for the Chemistry Division. How long were you in the Chemistry Division?
MS. ROSE: About ten years, I believe. And I can almost name any chemist here, I worked for them, because we were assigned certain places. But yes, I worked for about everyone in the Division if they came to me wanting help.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. Was it kind of like a secretarial pool?
MS. ROSE: No, we were assigned certain groups.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: But there were about 100, I guess, chemists then. But yes, if they came to me wanting help, they couldn't get it from the one they were assigned to, I said, "Well, I'll take it and do it while I can." I never turned anybody away, just put it in line.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But then later on they started that bid process, and I bid on a job in the Central Management offices and worked up there the rest of the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was the - tell me about the Chemistry Division. What was that like? I mean --
MS. ROSE: Well, it was certainly different. You certainly learned a lot there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: I was working for a man first, just one person, Dr. Kurt Krauss. And he was a German-born Jewish person, although he wasn't into practicing any religion. But yes, he was very well, I mean accomplished. And yes, he certainly gave as good shorthand practice as you'd ever hoped to get anywhere. But yes, the chemists are a different lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there any that you just didn't get along with at all?
MS. ROSE: No, not --
MR. MCDANIEL: Not that you want to say?
MS. ROSE: Not really, no. Like I said, I would take their work. But one woman we had, she, even with ones in her group, if she had one thing to do and they came with their work she'd say, "I'm busy. Can't do this" and they eventually got rid of her, transferred her out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: And so no, I never turned anybody away or had any trouble with the chemists.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. And this was - so this was in the '50s and '60s, I imagine.
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Late '50s through the '60s.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now you said you bid on a job for the Central Management office, and you got that job.
MS. ROSE: Yes. That was in the office of Environmental Sciences, I believe, up there. And so yes, this man had come here from California, and he was - and in fact Mr. Weinberg had brought him here. He had retired from General Atomic, I believe it was, in California. And yes, he was an older person, but just great to work for. But he just worked here about two years, till he --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: -- decided to go back to California.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: But then I got a job for Bill Harms. He was the Director of Nuclear Reactor Technology programs. It was a Program Director's office, so I worked there the rest of the years that I worked.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: So I heard a whole lot about nuclear power and solar and everything else.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure you did. Now what was his name?
MS. ROSE: -- and that's been a long time ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Bill Harms?
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was his name?
MS. ROSE: But John Jones was there for five years, and he was the Director. So yes, that was good experience. And at that time, let's see, we at first were working with the Clinch River Breeder Reactor program too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure, exactly.
MS. ROSE: And when all those people moved from Westinghouse, moved down here and they opened up that office, it got canceled later.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah. Sure. Of course.
MS. ROSE: So I knew of a lot of things that got canceled over the years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. They just had - you know, they started a program, gave it enough money, and then they just cut it off.
MS. ROSE: Yes. The first one was up at the Central Purchasing Division. We were being pushed to death to get these purchase orders placed for the ANP program, that's Aerial Nuclear Propulsion.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: We were placing emergency orders with all these companies, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: And then one afternoon, just before we were going to be off for the Christmas holiday, they came through there and said, "Send telegrams and cancel all those orders --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MS. ROSE: -- and ask what the cancellation charges are."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: So that was the first project I saw cancelled.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was the nuclear airplane, wasn't it?
MS. ROSE: And I later heard a man that was at ORO that said that's the craziest idea they'd ever had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, there were some issues with that one, I'm sure.
MS. ROSE: But yes, I knew of a lot of programs that were cancelled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. So what was it like working at the Lab in those, you know, those decades of the '60s and '70s?
MS. ROSE: Well, I thought it was nice. I enjoyed it all. There was one person that I worked for that gave me a lot of problems, but I just vowed that I was not going to let any one person run me off for my job that I liked.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: Because you didn't just work for the person out there; they worked for the company as you did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah.
MS. ROSE: I mean we worked for the same company, and they didn't - it wasn’t like if you were working for a lawyer that was paying you, and they have all the say, but out there, that's different.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was that something that was common? I mean or were people generally happy?
MS. ROSE: I think they generally were, but there's always some complainers everywhere you work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And another thing, the cafeteria out there, they used to distribute copies of a menu every day, and they had these sayings on them. One said, "The secret of happiness is not to do what you like, but like what you have to do."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I've always felt that people should take the best job they can find and try to be happy with it in some way.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: I did that pretty well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well good. So did you - while you were there did you work for anybody who had notoriety or did you meet any folks from out of town, visitors that came in that people would recognize their name?
MS. ROSE: Well, no. I well remember the day that President Carter came there to visit.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Okay.
MS. ROSE: And yes, I voted for him to begin with, although he always talked against nuclear power, and I forget - it was a strange way that he said it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Noo-cu-ler.
MS. ROSE: Well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Probably noo-cu-ler, noo-cu-ler power.
MS. ROSE: Well, anyhow, but I thought that when he got in there and saw all the facts that he'd change his mind, because of that old saying, "A wise man changes his mind and a fool never does."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right.
MS. ROSE: My father said that a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MS. ROSE: So, but the fact is he couldn't get the facts, because the day he came here the word out was that nobody could mention nuclear power.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MS. ROSE: And he was in the auditorium there in the 4500 building, and they picked out about four or five research programs, something that I'd never heard of, you know, just specific research programs, and had those people speak a little bit about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But he was - nobody was allowed to mention nuclear power, so he didn't get the facts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Nope.
MS. ROSE: And he cancelled that Breeder Reactor program. We could've had one running already, like in France, if he hadn't done that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Exactly. But did you ever have any association or any run-ins or experiences with Dr. Weinberg or his staff?
MS. ROSE: I was around his office quite a bit and helped some there too. I was just about three or four doors down from him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: And Floyd Culler, I have substituted in his office a lot too, when he was here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And so anyhow, I always took all the initiative I could to learn more, and therefore it made my job a lot more interesting than some secretaries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: They got bored with their jobs, but my feeling was that they should not be making so many mistakes before they got bored.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: If they could do the job better first. Anyhow.
MR. MCDANIEL: And I would imagine that during those decades that you were there that was an interesting place to work. I mean a lot of interesting things --
MS. ROSE: It was. Especially this nuclear power - that Director's office, because my boss there, he got lots of invitations to speak at schools or places about energy. And yes, he had little slides. Yes, so many times I helped him prepare talks there about --
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was that?
MS. ROSE: That was Bill Harms.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, Bill Harms, okay.
MS. ROSE: And he would talk about the different kinds of energy. And it - now I've been retired for 22 years, but it seems like nowadays I hear people going through the same thing we went through there; they act like solar power has never been studied before, or even energy conservation. One year there, why I had to wear my gloves at my desk all day while they turned back our heat so much and all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: Yeah. So yes, we went through a lot of things with energy conservation, solar, wind, and thermal and everything, you know. But when I hear people talk now, they just act like it's never even been thought of.
MR. MCDANIEL: They think it's something new.
MS. ROSE: And I frankly don't have a lot of hope now that we're going to get a whole lot of solar energy; it's very expensive and all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: Of course all those - we've got these little windmills over here in Oliver Springs, but you've probably been through a California area, where there are just fields of hundreds and hundreds of those wind mills.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. So in your lifetime, in your experience there, what do you think the future of energy efficiency should be?
MS. ROSE: Well, I think we're going to have to conserve a whole lot more. I mean there's no way we can keep going. It was 1982 when the World's Fair was in Knoxville, you know?
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: Well, the theme of that was energy, really.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And most people were not very interested in it. They just were bored; they wanted something more like - and in fact some people said, talked about Epcot, it had just opened up, and they were more interested in something to be entertained with.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: But I remember way back there, seeing films; it seems like it was a French Pavilion of how these streets in big cities where there are eight lanes or more across, and there's just cars a thick as they can stick.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: And you see that mostly on highway over there in Knoxville now when you're coming out, meeting them. And people are choosing to commute so many miles. I just don't see any way that we're going to have enough, no matter what we do.
MR. MCDANIEL: No matter what we do.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: What about nuclear?
MS. ROSE: Well, I'm in favor of nuclear. I think people, when they get cold enough in the winter, they will lose a little of their fear of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And my daughter Linda, my oldest daughter Linda is working, and her son also works in the Palo Verdes Nuclear Plant in Arizona. So yes, they're both working right there. But actually I'm - they're commuting about 70 miles to work, although they do have a lot of big vans that they --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But I'm more afraid that they're going to get hurt on the highway than I am at the nuclear plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Well let's go back and talk a little bit about your family, okay?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now you said - you had mentioned that your husband had gotten ill in the - not long after you'd been here.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he get better or what happened?
MS. ROSE: Yes, he had a very severe mental breakdown.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh did he? Okay.
MS. ROSE: And he went over to Nashville to a small private hospital; a lot of the people from here were sent over there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And he had been telling me for a few days that he felt depressed, but, you know, I'd never - I'd hardly heard the word "psychiatrist" mentioned then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: I didn't, you know, there was none in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: And eventually, when he got worse and I had to get him to a doctor - in fact, a doctor came to our apartment; Sam Hurt got him to. He set up an appointment for him to meet this psychiatrist from Knoxville at the emergency room at the Hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But if you - most people have not had much trouble with breakdowns and all like that, but when we took him to the Hospital he was just kind of like in a coma almost; he couldn't even - the doctor couldn't rouse him up enough to even talk to him.
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness.
MS. ROSE: But it took him many weeks; I think it was 22 weeks he was in the hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my goodness.
MS. ROSE: But the coverage of - although he had just been here a short, about a year, not quite a year and a half, they just kept getting extensions of his sick leave.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: And I think he eventually was one month without pay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Without pay.
MS. ROSE: But this is, I could see to begin with, just because he was over in Nashville that there was going to be extra expense for that, so that's why I went to work. So yes, we paid on his bill for many months after that. But yes, he worked here for nearly 25 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: And he did have a lot of shock treatments over there, ECT treatments, and insulin coma treatments. But he did recover and he went on to study for his Master’s degree here at the UT night school and completed that program and got his Masters, and he became a group leader at work and all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: And so one year he was president of the Oak Ridge High School Band Parents Association. But he did get up one morning and he jogged his regular routine he'd been doing for seven years, but when he sat down on the bed, cooling off, (he was a pipe smoker), when he got up to get in the shower he just dropped dead.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he really?
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my goodness.
MS. ROSE: It was right at 25 years. That was in April, and we would've been married for 25 years in December. But anyhow, I was by myself for 9 years after that, and moved from all the way from the west end of town and built this house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: But after 9 years I ran into an old friend from Arkansas.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: And he was - he had worked at Ford Motor Company for 30 years and had retired. But anyhow, I married him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: And he was here for 21 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: And he died nearly seven years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now how many children did you have?
MS. ROSE: Two.
MR. MCDANIEL: Two girls?
MS. ROSE: The girls; Linda was the first one, and she's the one that's working in Arizona at the nuclear power plant. And Nancy was born four years later.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? What was it like raising a family in Oak Ridge in the '50s and '60s?
MS. ROSE: Well, I think it was a great place to live. And we never considered - never seriously considered moving out of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. It was a good job?
MS. ROSE: I think it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Both your jobs were good jobs.
MS. ROSE: That's right. And I do not like that term, the Cold War Patriots. I hate that. I do not like anybody calling us patriots here, because everybody here that I ever knew loved to have their job here, and I never knew anybody to quit their job because they felt it was unsafe either.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: That's right. So yes, everybody - it was the best place to work, except compared with TVA. TVA and the plants here are certainly the best place to work around here as far as pay and all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now tell me about the Cold War Patriots. Tell me, what do they - what do you think they represent?
MS. ROSE: Well, I think they're mainly pushing that sick worker program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: They're getting a lot of money from somewhere, running all those big ads in Oak Ridge. I'm sure you've seen it --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. I have.
MS. ROSE: They had that fair. But they're mostly pushing health services, and they're really urging everybody to apply for that sick worker program too. And that's taxpayers' money that's being given away.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, what else you want to talk about?
MS. ROSE: Well --
MR. MCDANIEL: Were you - you know, let's talk about your, you know, your family life. Were you involved in - there are, you know, lots of organizations in Oak Ridge and lots of things to belong to.
MS. ROSE: Well, my girls were both in the music club, piano. Nancy, the younger one, was in a junior high band and the high school band.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: So we had lots of, you know, that was it. But I didn't get in any organizations then. I'm a mother; I didn't go bowling, because I felt if I was leaving my children during the day, why I --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. You needed to be home.
MS. ROSE: Work should be enough outlet for me, and I was going to spend all the time I could with them in the evenings at home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And I don't think that neither - I think that neither of them feels that they were, you know, neglected.
MR. MCDANIEL: Neglected.
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: But being in Oak Ridge helped, 'cause I would take some of my leave to, you know, if I had to go take them to the doctors or something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And I think it's a big mistake for people to move outside of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: Because a few years ago, many years ago, the Oak Ridger did a series about comparing the cost of living in Oak Ridge as in other communities, and they made a pretty good case that you can't - I mean you can pay city taxes and still come out if you pay it if you consider the cost of commuting and everything. Fire protection and everything like that is extra if you're out in the county.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And so even after my first husband died, and my girls were out of school, I guess I looked a little bit outside Elza Gate, but not very seriously, at moving outside the city limits of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And it's always been great to know that you can have the Police Department here in just a minute or very quickly at all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Oak Ridge has always, and continues to have good services for its residents.
MS. ROSE: That's right. So many people are just commuting such long distances. That's going to ruin us all, I think, at the rate that energy is being used.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. Well --
MS. ROSE: So I don't - that's about the gist of it. I ran for City Council once.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Tell me about that.
MS. ROSE: One time a few years ago. I did not win, but anyhow, I just wasn't too happy right then with council. I've always been pretty interested in city business --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: -- national and state and county, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And so --
MR. MCDANIEL: What year did you run for City Council?
MS. ROSE: Gosh, I'd have to - it's about - it's more than ten years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Okay.
MS. ROSE: Because it's after I was retired.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I wasn't happy with it, and I got to thinking one year, trying to think of somebody I could get to run, and all the people, like these scientific people, and they're not going to, not many of them, though.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But anyhow, I finally decided enough to think about it, and I thought, "Well, I could do this myself as well as they can," and I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: But it's harder when you've got incumbents, when you don't have any openings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure. Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And that first appointed Charter Commission, I was the Recording Secretary for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MS. ROSE: Not a member of it. But then later I was appointed to a Charter Commission; the City Council appointed it. So I served on that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: But that was just a review, just to bring the charter up to date.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. You'd review it and make recommendations for it to be --
MS. ROSE: That's right. And we had a lot of flack in that, though. Some people just insisted we should go to electing council by neighborhood, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But that wasn't part of what we were supposed to be doing. We were to review the charter and bring it into compliance with state laws mainly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, right. Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: And so then when the next Charter Commission came along, I ran for that too, but I was not elected.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I'm not a very aggressive campaigner; I hate campaigning.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: I wouldn't have minded serving on city council or the charter commission either, but I just hated that campaigning, and was not very aggressive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: So that's it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, I understand. So politically, through your whole life - did your parents - it seems like you had some interest in that.
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were your parents politically minded? Or do you remember?
MS. ROSE: No. No. You know, I do not know whether I was born or raised to be a Democrat or a Republican.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And that is to my advantage, I guess, because eventually I - for a long time I didn't pay enough attention in my working years and all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: But later on I decided I matched up more closely with the Democrats.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Well you make your own mind up, you know.
MS. ROSE: That's right. So many people just, if their parents were one, why that's what they're supposed to be.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And we're all entitled to be what we want to, but I have more respect for people who've made a choice than just doing it because their parents were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. It's so funny about that. When my wife and I - my wife and I are celebrating our 20th anniversary next week. Not long after we were married we decided - there was a survey in the Parade magazine and it said, "Where do you fall on the political spectrum?" 'Cause I knew we had some differences of opinion on some political things.
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So we took it, and we both took it individually. I got two newspapers, 'cause I didn't want us to have to mark up the same one. We took it and we compared it, and, you know, you had the extreme left and the extreme right, and then you had right down the middle, and I was just a hair right of the center and she was just a hair left of the center, so.
MS. ROSE: So you were pretty well together.
MR. MCDANIEL: So we were pretty well together, I mean, you know, in what we thought.
MS. ROSE: Well my last husband, Freeman Rose, he was from the same community in Arkansas where I was, but he was four years older than I was, so that makes a difference as what - I mean he remembers the Depression a lot more than I do.
MR. MCDANIEL: He remembers the Depression, yeah, sure.
MS. ROSE: But he says around the community down there, the Republican Party was almost unheard of.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: I just got a lot more interested after I retired, I guess, or I had more time to pay attention to what's going on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly. Exactly. Well is there anything else you want to talk about? We can.
MS. ROSE: I don't think so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Here's your chance.
MS. ROSE: I already told you what I thought of the Cold War Patriots.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's fine. That's fine.
MS. ROSE: And I am a promoter of nuclear power and certainly energy conservation. And I think we're going to - we don't have any easy solution to our energy shortage.
MR. MCDANIEL: You had a good education.
MS. ROSE: And I'm a big pusher of people living in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. You had a good education at the Lab, though. I mean you really did, on kind of big issues, you know, because you were so close to that.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So I think you're kind of uniquely qualified to have opinions about it.
MS. ROSE: Yeah. Well, we were someplace one time when I was talking about my daughter working in the nuclear plant. Actually I suggested that to her. She was a schoolteacher in special education in Chattanooga to begin with, but she - that's rough going, teacher especially.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: And she was looking for something else. She thought maybe she might try to be an electrician or something like that in Chattanooga. And I was driving her around downtown in Chattanooga, and I said, "Why didn't you put down 'reactor operator trainee'?" And she said, "Well, what's that?" and I said, "Well, you train to be a reactor operator." And she said, "Let's go back and I'll do it" and that's how she got into the training program at the Sequoyah Training Center, which has a two-year program --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah. Sure. Right.
MS. ROSE: -- and she got into that. And somebody questioned, you know, weren't we afraid, and I said, "Well, they grew up in Oak Ridge."
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And so, yes, I'm in favor of --
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, you compare the number of people that have been killed in nuclear accidents compared to the number of people that have been killed in the coal mine, it's a huge difference.
MS. ROSE: Yes, isn't that something? Isn't that -- but everything is still, the news, they gripe about - you know, they pick that up. There was one instance, the most ridiculous, one time when the headlines was a man killed at a nuclear plant, and it turned out it was a guard that fell off his stool and his gun went off. But the big headline, "Man Killed in Nuclear Plant".
MR. MCDANIEL: But because it was a nuclear plant.
MS. ROSE: So that's how ridiculous it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now you were working in the mid-'80s when they decided basically to shut everything down and they had the big layoff, weren't you?
MS. ROSE: You mean the Clinch River Breeder, or what are you talking about?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, when K-25, when they basically shut K-25 down.
MS. ROSE: Oh yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was the time of Three Mile Island and the China syndrome and all that.
MS. ROSE: Well, it was 1976 when John Owen died, and sometime before that, yes, they had laid off a lot of K-25 workers. They had transferred a lot of them to ORNL, but he did not - he was not laid off then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: So yeah, there's always been the fear of people being laid off. Wherever you get, there's a possibility your program is going to be cancelled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And it certainly is hard - I remember a big layoff in the Chemistry Division too, and then those Ph.D. chemists, some of them had a really rough time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. Well, I think, you know, you can answer this or not, but I'm going to ask you anyway.
MS. ROSE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Since, you know, since you're an alumnus of the Lab, what were your thoughts on our unwelcome visitors here a month or so ago, a couple months ago?
MS. ROSE: At Y-12?
MR. MCDANIEL: At Y-12.
MS. ROSE: Well, I tend to think that they - that's been blown way out of proportion. And you may have heard - do you watch the 6:00 news?
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes.
MS. ROSE: Well, the night-before-last - or no, it was Monday, 'cause that's when we had our Coalition of Oak Ridge Retirees, that's CORRE.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, right.
MS. ROSE: We had our annual meeting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And Channel 10 was out there. And so they called Charlie Kirkendall, he's the first--
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: Did you see that?
MR. MCDANIEL: No. No, but I know Charlie.
MS. ROSE: They called him out of the - we'd already started our annual meeting; Dub Shults was speaking.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: But they wanted to leave, so they called him out of there to interview him. And so what do you think was on the evening news? It was nothing about what Dub Shults, our speaker, was saying about pensions and benefits.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: They asked him about the Y-12 incident.
MR. MCDANIEL: About the break-in.
MS. ROSE: And that was all. But Charlie wrote a letter to the editor, had written letters to the editor, and that might be one reason. He used to be head of security at ORNL for some time. And he wrote his letter and said that they blew it up way out of proportion, that those people didn't get anywhere near any nuclear materials.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But other people I have heard say that this is a good thing, because it put them on alert security-wise before something much more serious happened. So that's what - so I can't really say. I've heard both cases.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But I believe the press usually will blow everything way out of proportion.
MR. MCDANIEL: They'll sensationalize it, won't they?
MS. ROSE: That's right. That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Exactly. Well, Ms. Rose, I sure do appreciate you taking time to talk with us.
MS. ROSE: Well, it was interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Good. Good. Well thank you so much. Thank you.
MS. ROSE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[***Editor’s Note: At the request of Ms. Rose, several small edits have been made to this transcript. However, the video interview has not been edited.***]

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ORAL HISTORY OF MARY HELEN OWEN ROSE
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
October 11, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: Well this is Keith McDaniel and today is October 11, 2012. And I am at the home of Mary Helen Owen Rose here in Oak Ridge. Ms. Rose, thank you for taking time to speak with us.
MS. ROSE: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start at the beginning. Why don't you tell me where you were born and something about your family and where you went to school?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm. Okay. I was born in Cash, Arkansas. And after I was through high school and had actually taught school three years on an emergency certificate, I came to Chattanooga at the urging of my aunt and uncle, who lived there. I went to the University of Chattanooga a year, and I met my husband, John Owen, who was from Cleveland, Tennessee. He was on the GI Bill there. I went to school a year there, and then I started working for TVA.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's get back to your childhood for just a minute.
MS. ROSE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were born in Cash, Arkansas.
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you mind telling me what year you were born?
MS. ROSE: 1928.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1928, right before the Depression.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was Cash a small town? Did you have brothers and sisters?
MS. ROSE: It was a community - a rural community of about 300.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: And yes, I had four brothers and sisters. And we were on a farm, growing cotton and corn and hay. And yes, we worked in the fields. We had no slaves there at all; we did all of our own work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: We worked very hard. I've always heard in more recent years, that somebody that, when you have picked cotton, everything else in life is easy for you. And I've relied on that a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: So that's helped me a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: How old were you when you started picking cotton?
MS. ROSE: Well, just three or four years old I was going to the field. I doubt if I was picking any amount at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Now was that your parents' farm, or were they sharecropping?
MS. ROSE: They were sharecropping then. But we later bought a farm under that FHA program that came in. It was new, for people in the rural area, where they loaned money. They had about four styles of houses and they had barns and outhouses and everything else were all the same.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: So yes, that was a considerable improvement for us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now is that what your parents did full time, the farm?
MS. ROSE: Yes. Well, my father worked at the cotton gin usually through the fall to make money.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: He later drove a school bus some on the side too --
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MS. ROSE: -- when school buses came in. There was a time when we were walking two miles to school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: But school buses did come in.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now so you went to school there. Was it in Cash or was it a nearby town?
MS. ROSE: It was a very, very small school. There were eight of us who graduated in my class. And in the high school there were two high school teachers, and we just took the basic minimum courses to graduate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. And what year did you graduate?
MS. ROSE: 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: So in '46 you left --
MS. ROSE: One of our teachers had gone off to the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: Teachers didn't go to the service, well, they followed their husbands who went off to war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So when you graduated high school you moved to Chattanooga, you said.
MS. ROSE: Well, first I went to Arkansas State a little --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: -- at the urging of the county school superintendent or something. They couldn't find a teacher for one small school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: And I went to Arkansas State College enough to get an emergency certificate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because there weren't enough teachers.
MS. ROSE: That's right. But then after I had taught three years, they were starting to require that teachers had at least two years of college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: The last year I was teaching, I saved all the money I could, even picking cotton on Saturdays when I was off to go back to school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. And you moved to Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What made you choose Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: My aunt and uncle were there. They urged me to come there and live with them and go to the University of Chattanooga, which was a private university then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it?
MS. ROSE: Yeah, that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And it was the University of Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that - did that eventually become part of the UT system?
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: UT Chattanooga?
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see. I see. So you went there, and what did you study? And did you graduate?
MS. ROSE: Well, I started taking commercial subjects, mainly because I wanted to get a part-time job and all. And then I was only able to go a year. And so I was in good shape to get a job at TVA, --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: -- which that was the good place to work there, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. So you got a job at TVA at what, about ‘50, late ‘40s?
MS. ROSE: Well, we came here in '53, so I had - it was about '51.
MR. MCDANIEL: '50, '51 or so?
MS. ROSE: Yes because I worked about two years there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? And you met your - you said you met your husband, who was from Cleveland, Tennessee.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was he in school when you met him?
MS. ROSE: Yes, he was in school on a GI Bill.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MS. ROSE: And after a while I moved from my aunt and uncle's house to a dormitory there, right near the university. And he was in a dormitory; the one that's under the football stadiums there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: So we ate at the cafeteria every day, you know, so that's where we met.
MR. MCDANIEL: You met and then you got married?
MS. ROSE: We got married in December of '51, and he graduated in June of '52.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: And so then he took a job here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did he study? What was his--
MS. ROSE: Oh, he studied engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: It was industrial engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And so he got a job here, and at that time that three-plant expansion was going on for Oak Ridge and Paducah and Portsmouth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: And so they did all the engineering here, and the purchasing for that too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. Yeah.
MS. ROSE: So he got a job, and all he had to do was apply to get a job. And we came up here actually with Sam and Jimmy Hurt. Sam went to school down there on a football scholarship, and he graduated with John. But we brought them up here with just everything they had was in our car, and John decided to apply here while he was here, and he got a job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And then I came on up here and applied for office work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I went to work in the Central Purchasing Division offices, about where the Hospital is now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: So I worked there about four years. And then - well, I quit once for the birth of my first child, and then I went back and worked a while longer, but then had a second child.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: So after about two or three years, I decided to go back to work. I remember the employment office was there near the Purchasing Division, and --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: -- when I interviewed there they asked whether I wanted to go back to Purchasing. I said, "Not necessarily. I think I've prepared enough purchase orders," and I went out to ORNL and got a job in the Chemistry Division.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: So let's go back to you and your husband; you came up here in '53 --
MS. ROSE: We went to the Brick Apartments. All couples lived in the Brick Apartments then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. So you came up here and he got a job and then you got a job in purchasing, and he was working on the Uranium Enrichment Expansion program.
MS. ROSE: That's right. He was in instrument engineering here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Okay. So you were young, you didn't - and when did you have your first child, what year?
MS. ROSE: Well, 1953. We came here in January, and they used to joke around here that it's in the water.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: Well, all couples came here and they immediately had a pregnancy. And so I wasn't here long until I was expecting.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you didn't have much time to spend as a couple with no kids in Oak Ridge, did you?
MS. ROSE: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, you were --
MS. ROSE: Yeah, that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- you had done that in Chattanooga, so.
MS. ROSE: Well, we hadn't been --
MR. MCDANIEL: Hadn't been married long.
MS. ROSE: That's right; just a year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MS. ROSE: So, yeah, I was 25 when I had my first child, Linda.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. So you had your first child and you stayed home for a while, then you decided you wanted to go back to work.
MS. ROSE: Well, I actually - I thought I was going to stay home endlessly, but when our first daughter was about three months old and my husband became ill --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: -- and I foresaw then that there would be extra expenses, and I went back to work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. I see. So you went back to work and you went to work at the Chemistry Division at ORNL.
MS. ROSE: Well, no, at that time I went back to Purchasing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, went back to Purchasing.
MS. ROSE: So I had two stints at Purchasing that totaled about four years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
MS. ROSE: But then when - I was going to stay home again the second time, but we moved in with - well, out of the Brick Apartments. As soon as you could take a certificate from the doctor that you were expecting, you could get on the list to get a cemesto house, a two bedroom.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: And so we got a “B” house there on Outer Drive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: And we lived there a while. But they came along and sold those cemesto houses to the owner, but we didn't keep ours, because we would have if it had a good lot, but it was right up near the street there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: So, but those East Village houses came in and they were great, you know, they were new.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: So we moved to East Village and we lived there about three years. And those were great when they were new.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where on East Village, where did you live?
MS. ROSE: Well, it was Edison Lane.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MS. ROSE: Going up East Drive it was the last house on the left.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yes. Yes.
MS. ROSE: And so, but that was great because there were young people there with kids, all of them, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But they came along later and sold those, and you had the first priority, and we intended to buy ours, but at first they jacked up the prices a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my.
MS. ROSE: And so we didn't buy ours, but then somebody else did and we had to move out. But they later had to come down on the price.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But anyhow, that's when I said, "I'm just going to go back to work and we can save up money for a down payment and build us a house."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: And that's what we did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: So I worked - I went to work off and on, but if you are a secretary you can pretty well get a job when you want it, most anywhere you go.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. And is that what you did?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: You worked as a secretary?
MS. ROSE: That's right. Well, yes, I took those commercial courses in Chattanooga, and I even studied accounting and all that too. And I later studied to become a certified professional secretary, and I went to the UT evening school some too.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was when you were working at the Lab?
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Now you said you went to work for the Chemistry Division. How long were you in the Chemistry Division?
MS. ROSE: About ten years, I believe. And I can almost name any chemist here, I worked for them, because we were assigned certain places. But yes, I worked for about everyone in the Division if they came to me wanting help.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. Was it kind of like a secretarial pool?
MS. ROSE: No, we were assigned certain groups.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MS. ROSE: But there were about 100, I guess, chemists then. But yes, if they came to me wanting help, they couldn't get it from the one they were assigned to, I said, "Well, I'll take it and do it while I can." I never turned anybody away, just put it in line.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But then later on they started that bid process, and I bid on a job in the Central Management offices and worked up there the rest of the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was the - tell me about the Chemistry Division. What was that like? I mean --
MS. ROSE: Well, it was certainly different. You certainly learned a lot there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: I was working for a man first, just one person, Dr. Kurt Krauss. And he was a German-born Jewish person, although he wasn't into practicing any religion. But yes, he was very well, I mean accomplished. And yes, he certainly gave as good shorthand practice as you'd ever hoped to get anywhere. But yes, the chemists are a different lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there any that you just didn't get along with at all?
MS. ROSE: No, not --
MR. MCDANIEL: Not that you want to say?
MS. ROSE: Not really, no. Like I said, I would take their work. But one woman we had, she, even with ones in her group, if she had one thing to do and they came with their work she'd say, "I'm busy. Can't do this" and they eventually got rid of her, transferred her out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: And so no, I never turned anybody away or had any trouble with the chemists.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. And this was - so this was in the '50s and '60s, I imagine.
MS. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Late '50s through the '60s.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now you said you bid on a job for the Central Management office, and you got that job.
MS. ROSE: Yes. That was in the office of Environmental Sciences, I believe, up there. And so yes, this man had come here from California, and he was - and in fact Mr. Weinberg had brought him here. He had retired from General Atomic, I believe it was, in California. And yes, he was an older person, but just great to work for. But he just worked here about two years, till he --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: -- decided to go back to California.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: But then I got a job for Bill Harms. He was the Director of Nuclear Reactor Technology programs. It was a Program Director's office, so I worked there the rest of the years that I worked.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: So I heard a whole lot about nuclear power and solar and everything else.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure you did. Now what was his name?
MS. ROSE: -- and that's been a long time ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Bill Harms?
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was his name?
MS. ROSE: But John Jones was there for five years, and he was the Director. So yes, that was good experience. And at that time, let's see, we at first were working with the Clinch River Breeder Reactor program too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure, exactly.
MS. ROSE: And when all those people moved from Westinghouse, moved down here and they opened up that office, it got canceled later.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah. Sure. Of course.
MS. ROSE: So I knew of a lot of things that got canceled over the years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. They just had - you know, they started a program, gave it enough money, and then they just cut it off.
MS. ROSE: Yes. The first one was up at the Central Purchasing Division. We were being pushed to death to get these purchase orders placed for the ANP program, that's Aerial Nuclear Propulsion.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: We were placing emergency orders with all these companies, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: And then one afternoon, just before we were going to be off for the Christmas holiday, they came through there and said, "Send telegrams and cancel all those orders --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MS. ROSE: -- and ask what the cancellation charges are."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: So that was the first project I saw cancelled.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was the nuclear airplane, wasn't it?
MS. ROSE: And I later heard a man that was at ORO that said that's the craziest idea they'd ever had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, there were some issues with that one, I'm sure.
MS. ROSE: But yes, I knew of a lot of programs that were cancelled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. So what was it like working at the Lab in those, you know, those decades of the '60s and '70s?
MS. ROSE: Well, I thought it was nice. I enjoyed it all. There was one person that I worked for that gave me a lot of problems, but I just vowed that I was not going to let any one person run me off for my job that I liked.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: Because you didn't just work for the person out there; they worked for the company as you did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah.
MS. ROSE: I mean we worked for the same company, and they didn't - it wasn’t like if you were working for a lawyer that was paying you, and they have all the say, but out there, that's different.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was that something that was common? I mean or were people generally happy?
MS. ROSE: I think they generally were, but there's always some complainers everywhere you work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And another thing, the cafeteria out there, they used to distribute copies of a menu every day, and they had these sayings on them. One said, "The secret of happiness is not to do what you like, but like what you have to do."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I've always felt that people should take the best job they can find and try to be happy with it in some way.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: I did that pretty well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well good. So did you - while you were there did you work for anybody who had notoriety or did you meet any folks from out of town, visitors that came in that people would recognize their name?
MS. ROSE: Well, no. I well remember the day that President Carter came there to visit.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Okay.
MS. ROSE: And yes, I voted for him to begin with, although he always talked against nuclear power, and I forget - it was a strange way that he said it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Noo-cu-ler.
MS. ROSE: Well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Probably noo-cu-ler, noo-cu-ler power.
MS. ROSE: Well, anyhow, but I thought that when he got in there and saw all the facts that he'd change his mind, because of that old saying, "A wise man changes his mind and a fool never does."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right.
MS. ROSE: My father said that a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MS. ROSE: So, but the fact is he couldn't get the facts, because the day he came here the word out was that nobody could mention nuclear power.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MS. ROSE: And he was in the auditorium there in the 4500 building, and they picked out about four or five research programs, something that I'd never heard of, you know, just specific research programs, and had those people speak a little bit about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But he was - nobody was allowed to mention nuclear power, so he didn't get the facts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Nope.
MS. ROSE: And he cancelled that Breeder Reactor program. We could've had one running already, like in France, if he hadn't done that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Exactly. But did you ever have any association or any run-ins or experiences with Dr. Weinberg or his staff?
MS. ROSE: I was around his office quite a bit and helped some there too. I was just about three or four doors down from him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: And Floyd Culler, I have substituted in his office a lot too, when he was here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And so anyhow, I always took all the initiative I could to learn more, and therefore it made my job a lot more interesting than some secretaries.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: They got bored with their jobs, but my feeling was that they should not be making so many mistakes before they got bored.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: If they could do the job better first. Anyhow.
MR. MCDANIEL: And I would imagine that during those decades that you were there that was an interesting place to work. I mean a lot of interesting things --
MS. ROSE: It was. Especially this nuclear power - that Director's office, because my boss there, he got lots of invitations to speak at schools or places about energy. And yes, he had little slides. Yes, so many times I helped him prepare talks there about --
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was that?
MS. ROSE: That was Bill Harms.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, Bill Harms, okay.
MS. ROSE: And he would talk about the different kinds of energy. And it - now I've been retired for 22 years, but it seems like nowadays I hear people going through the same thing we went through there; they act like solar power has never been studied before, or even energy conservation. One year there, why I had to wear my gloves at my desk all day while they turned back our heat so much and all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: Yeah. So yes, we went through a lot of things with energy conservation, solar, wind, and thermal and everything, you know. But when I hear people talk now, they just act like it's never even been thought of.
MR. MCDANIEL: They think it's something new.
MS. ROSE: And I frankly don't have a lot of hope now that we're going to get a whole lot of solar energy; it's very expensive and all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: Of course all those - we've got these little windmills over here in Oliver Springs, but you've probably been through a California area, where there are just fields of hundreds and hundreds of those wind mills.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. So in your lifetime, in your experience there, what do you think the future of energy efficiency should be?
MS. ROSE: Well, I think we're going to have to conserve a whole lot more. I mean there's no way we can keep going. It was 1982 when the World's Fair was in Knoxville, you know?
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: Well, the theme of that was energy, really.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And most people were not very interested in it. They just were bored; they wanted something more like - and in fact some people said, talked about Epcot, it had just opened up, and they were more interested in something to be entertained with.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: But I remember way back there, seeing films; it seems like it was a French Pavilion of how these streets in big cities where there are eight lanes or more across, and there's just cars a thick as they can stick.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: And you see that mostly on highway over there in Knoxville now when you're coming out, meeting them. And people are choosing to commute so many miles. I just don't see any way that we're going to have enough, no matter what we do.
MR. MCDANIEL: No matter what we do.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: What about nuclear?
MS. ROSE: Well, I'm in favor of nuclear. I think people, when they get cold enough in the winter, they will lose a little of their fear of it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And my daughter Linda, my oldest daughter Linda is working, and her son also works in the Palo Verdes Nuclear Plant in Arizona. So yes, they're both working right there. But actually I'm - they're commuting about 70 miles to work, although they do have a lot of big vans that they --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But I'm more afraid that they're going to get hurt on the highway than I am at the nuclear plant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Well let's go back and talk a little bit about your family, okay?
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now you said - you had mentioned that your husband had gotten ill in the - not long after you'd been here.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he get better or what happened?
MS. ROSE: Yes, he had a very severe mental breakdown.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh did he? Okay.
MS. ROSE: And he went over to Nashville to a small private hospital; a lot of the people from here were sent over there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And he had been telling me for a few days that he felt depressed, but, you know, I'd never - I'd hardly heard the word "psychiatrist" mentioned then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: I didn't, you know, there was none in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: And eventually, when he got worse and I had to get him to a doctor - in fact, a doctor came to our apartment; Sam Hurt got him to. He set up an appointment for him to meet this psychiatrist from Knoxville at the emergency room at the Hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But if you - most people have not had much trouble with breakdowns and all like that, but when we took him to the Hospital he was just kind of like in a coma almost; he couldn't even - the doctor couldn't rouse him up enough to even talk to him.
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness.
MS. ROSE: But it took him many weeks; I think it was 22 weeks he was in the hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my goodness.
MS. ROSE: But the coverage of - although he had just been here a short, about a year, not quite a year and a half, they just kept getting extensions of his sick leave.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: And I think he eventually was one month without pay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Without pay.
MS. ROSE: But this is, I could see to begin with, just because he was over in Nashville that there was going to be extra expense for that, so that's why I went to work. So yes, we paid on his bill for many months after that. But yes, he worked here for nearly 25 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: And he did have a lot of shock treatments over there, ECT treatments, and insulin coma treatments. But he did recover and he went on to study for his Master’s degree here at the UT night school and completed that program and got his Masters, and he became a group leader at work and all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MS. ROSE: And so one year he was president of the Oak Ridge High School Band Parents Association. But he did get up one morning and he jogged his regular routine he'd been doing for seven years, but when he sat down on the bed, cooling off, (he was a pipe smoker), when he got up to get in the shower he just dropped dead.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he really?
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my goodness.
MS. ROSE: It was right at 25 years. That was in April, and we would've been married for 25 years in December. But anyhow, I was by myself for 9 years after that, and moved from all the way from the west end of town and built this house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: But after 9 years I ran into an old friend from Arkansas.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: And he was - he had worked at Ford Motor Company for 30 years and had retired. But anyhow, I married him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MS. ROSE: And he was here for 21 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: And he died nearly seven years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now how many children did you have?
MS. ROSE: Two.
MR. MCDANIEL: Two girls?
MS. ROSE: The girls; Linda was the first one, and she's the one that's working in Arizona at the nuclear power plant. And Nancy was born four years later.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? What was it like raising a family in Oak Ridge in the '50s and '60s?
MS. ROSE: Well, I think it was a great place to live. And we never considered - never seriously considered moving out of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. It was a good job?
MS. ROSE: I think it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Both your jobs were good jobs.
MS. ROSE: That's right. And I do not like that term, the Cold War Patriots. I hate that. I do not like anybody calling us patriots here, because everybody here that I ever knew loved to have their job here, and I never knew anybody to quit their job because they felt it was unsafe either.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: That's right. So yes, everybody - it was the best place to work, except compared with TVA. TVA and the plants here are certainly the best place to work around here as far as pay and all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now tell me about the Cold War Patriots. Tell me, what do they - what do you think they represent?
MS. ROSE: Well, I think they're mainly pushing that sick worker program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MS. ROSE: They're getting a lot of money from somewhere, running all those big ads in Oak Ridge. I'm sure you've seen it --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. I have.
MS. ROSE: They had that fair. But they're mostly pushing health services, and they're really urging everybody to apply for that sick worker program too. And that's taxpayers' money that's being given away.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, what else you want to talk about?
MS. ROSE: Well --
MR. MCDANIEL: Were you - you know, let's talk about your, you know, your family life. Were you involved in - there are, you know, lots of organizations in Oak Ridge and lots of things to belong to.
MS. ROSE: Well, my girls were both in the music club, piano. Nancy, the younger one, was in a junior high band and the high school band.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: So we had lots of, you know, that was it. But I didn't get in any organizations then. I'm a mother; I didn't go bowling, because I felt if I was leaving my children during the day, why I --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. You needed to be home.
MS. ROSE: Work should be enough outlet for me, and I was going to spend all the time I could with them in the evenings at home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And I don't think that neither - I think that neither of them feels that they were, you know, neglected.
MR. MCDANIEL: Neglected.
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: But being in Oak Ridge helped, 'cause I would take some of my leave to, you know, if I had to go take them to the doctors or something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And I think it's a big mistake for people to move outside of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MS. ROSE: Because a few years ago, many years ago, the Oak Ridger did a series about comparing the cost of living in Oak Ridge as in other communities, and they made a pretty good case that you can't - I mean you can pay city taxes and still come out if you pay it if you consider the cost of commuting and everything. Fire protection and everything like that is extra if you're out in the county.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And so even after my first husband died, and my girls were out of school, I guess I looked a little bit outside Elza Gate, but not very seriously, at moving outside the city limits of Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And it's always been great to know that you can have the Police Department here in just a minute or very quickly at all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Oak Ridge has always, and continues to have good services for its residents.
MS. ROSE: That's right. So many people are just commuting such long distances. That's going to ruin us all, I think, at the rate that energy is being used.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. Well --
MS. ROSE: So I don't - that's about the gist of it. I ran for City Council once.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Tell me about that.
MS. ROSE: One time a few years ago. I did not win, but anyhow, I just wasn't too happy right then with council. I've always been pretty interested in city business --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: -- national and state and county, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And so --
MR. MCDANIEL: What year did you run for City Council?
MS. ROSE: Gosh, I'd have to - it's about - it's more than ten years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Okay.
MS. ROSE: Because it's after I was retired.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I wasn't happy with it, and I got to thinking one year, trying to think of somebody I could get to run, and all the people, like these scientific people, and they're not going to, not many of them, though.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But anyhow, I finally decided enough to think about it, and I thought, "Well, I could do this myself as well as they can," and I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: But it's harder when you've got incumbents, when you don't have any openings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure. Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And that first appointed Charter Commission, I was the Recording Secretary for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you?
MS. ROSE: Not a member of it. But then later I was appointed to a Charter Commission; the City Council appointed it. So I served on that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: But that was just a review, just to bring the charter up to date.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. You'd review it and make recommendations for it to be --
MS. ROSE: That's right. And we had a lot of flack in that, though. Some people just insisted we should go to electing council by neighborhood, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: But that wasn't part of what we were supposed to be doing. We were to review the charter and bring it into compliance with state laws mainly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, right. Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: And so then when the next Charter Commission came along, I ran for that too, but I was not elected.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: I'm not a very aggressive campaigner; I hate campaigning.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: I wouldn't have minded serving on city council or the charter commission either, but I just hated that campaigning, and was not very aggressive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right. Right.
MS. ROSE: So that's it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, I understand. So politically, through your whole life - did your parents - it seems like you had some interest in that.
MS. ROSE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were your parents politically minded? Or do you remember?
MS. ROSE: No. No. You know, I do not know whether I was born or raised to be a Democrat or a Republican.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And that is to my advantage, I guess, because eventually I - for a long time I didn't pay enough attention in my working years and all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: But later on I decided I matched up more closely with the Democrats.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Well you make your own mind up, you know.
MS. ROSE: That's right. So many people just, if their parents were one, why that's what they're supposed to be.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And we're all entitled to be what we want to, but I have more respect for people who've made a choice than just doing it because their parents were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. It's so funny about that. When my wife and I - my wife and I are celebrating our 20th anniversary next week. Not long after we were married we decided - there was a survey in the Parade magazine and it said, "Where do you fall on the political spectrum?" 'Cause I knew we had some differences of opinion on some political things.
MS. ROSE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So we took it, and we both took it individually. I got two newspapers, 'cause I didn't want us to have to mark up the same one. We took it and we compared it, and, you know, you had the extreme left and the extreme right, and then you had right down the middle, and I was just a hair right of the center and she was just a hair left of the center, so.
MS. ROSE: So you were pretty well together.
MR. MCDANIEL: So we were pretty well together, I mean, you know, in what we thought.
MS. ROSE: Well my last husband, Freeman Rose, he was from the same community in Arkansas where I was, but he was four years older than I was, so that makes a difference as what - I mean he remembers the Depression a lot more than I do.
MR. MCDANIEL: He remembers the Depression, yeah, sure.
MS. ROSE: But he says around the community down there, the Republican Party was almost unheard of.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: I just got a lot more interested after I retired, I guess, or I had more time to pay attention to what's going on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Exactly. Exactly. Well is there anything else you want to talk about? We can.
MS. ROSE: I don't think so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Here's your chance.
MS. ROSE: I already told you what I thought of the Cold War Patriots.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's fine. That's fine.
MS. ROSE: And I am a promoter of nuclear power and certainly energy conservation. And I think we're going to - we don't have any easy solution to our energy shortage.
MR. MCDANIEL: You had a good education.
MS. ROSE: And I'm a big pusher of people living in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. You had a good education at the Lab, though. I mean you really did, on kind of big issues, you know, because you were so close to that.
MS. ROSE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So I think you're kind of uniquely qualified to have opinions about it.
MS. ROSE: Yeah. Well, we were someplace one time when I was talking about my daughter working in the nuclear plant. Actually I suggested that to her. She was a schoolteacher in special education in Chattanooga to begin with, but she - that's rough going, teacher especially.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MS. ROSE: And she was looking for something else. She thought maybe she might try to be an electrician or something like that in Chattanooga. And I was driving her around downtown in Chattanooga, and I said, "Why didn't you put down 'reactor operator trainee'?" And she said, "Well, what's that?" and I said, "Well, you train to be a reactor operator." And she said, "Let's go back and I'll do it" and that's how she got into the training program at the Sequoyah Training Center, which has a two-year program --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah. Sure. Right.
MS. ROSE: -- and she got into that. And somebody questioned, you know, weren't we afraid, and I said, "Well, they grew up in Oak Ridge."
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And so, yes, I'm in favor of --
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, you compare the number of people that have been killed in nuclear accidents compared to the number of people that have been killed in the coal mine, it's a huge difference.
MS. ROSE: Yes, isn't that something? Isn't that -- but everything is still, the news, they gripe about - you know, they pick that up. There was one instance, the most ridiculous, one time when the headlines was a man killed at a nuclear plant, and it turned out it was a guard that fell off his stool and his gun went off. But the big headline, "Man Killed in Nuclear Plant".
MR. MCDANIEL: But because it was a nuclear plant.
MS. ROSE: So that's how ridiculous it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now you were working in the mid-'80s when they decided basically to shut everything down and they had the big layoff, weren't you?
MS. ROSE: You mean the Clinch River Breeder, or what are you talking about?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, when K-25, when they basically shut K-25 down.
MS. ROSE: Oh yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that was the time of Three Mile Island and the China syndrome and all that.
MS. ROSE: Well, it was 1976 when John Owen died, and sometime before that, yes, they had laid off a lot of K-25 workers. They had transferred a lot of them to ORNL, but he did not - he was not laid off then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MS. ROSE: So yeah, there's always been the fear of people being laid off. Wherever you get, there's a possibility your program is going to be cancelled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: And it certainly is hard - I remember a big layoff in the Chemistry Division too, and then those Ph.D. chemists, some of them had a really rough time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. Well, I think, you know, you can answer this or not, but I'm going to ask you anyway.
MS. ROSE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: Since, you know, since you're an alumnus of the Lab, what were your thoughts on our unwelcome visitors here a month or so ago, a couple months ago?
MS. ROSE: At Y-12?
MR. MCDANIEL: At Y-12.
MS. ROSE: Well, I tend to think that they - that's been blown way out of proportion. And you may have heard - do you watch the 6:00 news?
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes.
MS. ROSE: Well, the night-before-last - or no, it was Monday, 'cause that's when we had our Coalition of Oak Ridge Retirees, that's CORRE.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, right.
MS. ROSE: We had our annual meeting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: And Channel 10 was out there. And so they called Charlie Kirkendall, he's the first--
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MS. ROSE: Did you see that?
MR. MCDANIEL: No. No, but I know Charlie.
MS. ROSE: They called him out of the - we'd already started our annual meeting; Dub Shults was speaking.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: But they wanted to leave, so they called him out of there to interview him. And so what do you think was on the evening news? It was nothing about what Dub Shults, our speaker, was saying about pensions and benefits.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MS. ROSE: They asked him about the Y-12 incident.
MR. MCDANIEL: About the break-in.
MS. ROSE: And that was all. But Charlie wrote a letter to the editor, had written letters to the editor, and that might be one reason. He used to be head of security at ORNL for some time. And he wrote his letter and said that they blew it up way out of proportion, that those people didn't get anywhere near any nuclear materials.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But other people I have heard say that this is a good thing, because it put them on alert security-wise before something much more serious happened. So that's what - so I can't really say. I've heard both cases.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MS. ROSE: But I believe the press usually will blow everything way out of proportion.
MR. MCDANIEL: They'll sensationalize it, won't they?
MS. ROSE: That's right. That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. Exactly. Well, Ms. Rose, I sure do appreciate you taking time to talk with us.
MS. ROSE: Well, it was interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Good. Good. Well thank you so much. Thank you.
MS. ROSE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[***Editor’s Note: At the request of Ms. Rose, several small edits have been made to this transcript. However, the video interview has not been edited.***]