to me maybe the most important thing is to have a vision. if you don't know what you are trying to create does it even matter what you shoot? just shoot something.

what's your style? what do you like? what do you want to say?

there are so many styles and genres and ways to do it.

and at some point you figure out how to read your camera manual and then it's all about your vision (which in turn will affect your choice of llamas, locations, post-processing, etc.)

for some i think it gets to be about their team. they are the leader and have MUAs, stylists, etc. onboard to help execute the vision (or even determine it).

for me it's easier to work from a client brief rather than just randomly figuring out something to shoot. for llama shoots i get ideas from the llamas.

for weddings you shoot like 10 of them (assuming you get past the first one) and you start to figure some things out.

but for some types of photography maybe the most important thing is to have an idea. to have something to say. what do you have to say to the world that's different from what the photographer next door has to say?

if i were teaching photography school i would focus on how to be creative, how to have/get a vision, how to light well. the camera part is the easy part that most anyone can learn (it gets more complex when you add flash).

i'd say look for people who are doing something interesting, something unique, something unusual. and some of it is now in the realm of digital art (just like with the movies).

Both of the above posts hit the nail on the head. I say, shoot, shoot, shoot. Especially things that you know are going to be uninteresting. Take a day, and shoot only pictures of one specific color. Then, shoot another day, just vertical lines. The next day, shoot horizontal lines. Then, find a coffee cup. Put it on a table or pedestal of some sort, and shoot it from above, below, the left, the right, etc. Shoot only textures, bricks, walls, sidewalks, anything with a texture. If you can make the uninteresting, interesting, you will begin to see what's going on. This is one of the things that I am working on as we speak.

ChiMo wrote: I went to school for it. San Diego City College.
Then I interned and assisted. I still assist/intern whenever possible.
Best way to learn for me.

"Shoot all the time" or anything along those lines have never worked for me as making shitty photos with no idea how to correct them simply resulted in more shitty photos.

Practice everything all the time. Not just shooting. I think too many people over simplify it as just shoot. No - shoot, edit, correct and do it again. You can't master anything you don't practice and correct.

ChiMo wrote: "Shoot all the time" or anything along those lines have never worked for me as making shitty photos with no idea how to correct them simply resulted in more shitty photos.

Exactly. As a teacher of mine used to say, practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

To the OP, if you're interested in art, as you say, then I would focus on what you want to say as an artist. What story are you trying to tell? What is your narrative?

Almost every great artist you can think of is simply telling the same core story over and over, from different angles, in different ways. I spent 40 years figuring this out. lol, hope you get there more quickly.

In any case, find out what you are actually exploring in your work and your art. Then figure out how you want to tell your story. Imagine the images in your head. Once you've done that, then focus on mastering the techniques needed to achieve your vision.

i used to practice golf all the time (including some instruction) and only broke 80 once. i think for some things either you have "it" or you don't. something about the way your body and mind work. or maybe the key is finding the right instructor/mentor who can bring it out of you. or learning what is really good and always striving to get better. some people some to reach a certain point and are happy with that.

but the thing about learning to love practice sounds on track. you have to eventually love doing it in order to put in all those hours. but if you aren't improving then you're just pounding sand basically. i bet you can find people who've put in a lot of hours on something and still suck (depending on your definition of suck of course).

for my part i think i have more technical control now but some of my early work may have been better because i had no fear (partly because i was hiring models and didn't need to please them, just myself).

but if what you want is to create art (stuff that gets people talking) will 10,000 hours of shooting models make any difference if you don't have weird, interesting, unique ideas to go along with that? just seems like some artists have tortured souls and through expressing that inner turmoil create something noteworthy. there's just something about the way that person sees the world that is interesting. it's about their vision, not their camera settings (although you can certainly be creative with the camera settings). of course some people are basically just really good copyists and have never had an original idea (i'd put my photography in that category).

A person with the attitude, "I want to be an artist" has less chance of becoming any type of artist, than the one with the attitude, "I want to be an artist doing story boards for Pixar within the next four years," or "I want to be an artist painting chidren's portrait in oils in the methods of the Flemish masters."

The point is you have to get specific with your goals. Random and generic aiming does not result in anything worthwhile. That's why, "keep shooting," or "shooot a lot" will never be a good advice to become a good photographer - whatever that good means.

In your OP request, two words are crucial: the GOOD in good photographer, and BEAUTIFUL in beautiful photographs. Because both these terms are too generic and too subjective in that generality.

To make any worthwhile improvement in yourself, you have to set yourself tangible, achievable goals that are specifically subjective to your self, your apptitude, your tendencies and your resources.

As a good example of achieving good and beautiful by being specific, study the life and works of Wayne Thiebaud. He is a painter, but the exmaple still holds.

Repetition makes you better. But not mere random repetitiveness. Instead, targeted and systematic repetition of result-oriented practices surely will take you better at whatever you do.

My suggestion is, get sepcific (for yourself, not to prove to anyone else) about what are the qualities of a good photographer and what makes a photograph beautiful. Once you have those understandings clear, then it is a matter of seeking means and methods to get there.

Because there are NO GENERIC rules, methods and path ways to take to become a good photographer or to make beautiful photographs.

I'm not talking about the business side of photography, right now I don't care about money. I want to make art, I want to make something beautiful.

I want to know what things you did to learn how to make beautiful images. I will not accept the answer to "shoot more", this is obvious as all skills require practice.

Please impart your wisdom.

but it's true. practice practice practice.

and try new things in order to find the things you truly like....

"I've worked out of a series of no's. No to exquisite light, no to apparent compositions, no to the seduction of poses or narrative. And all these no's force me to the "yes." I have a white background. I have the person I'm interested in and the thing that happens between us." - Richard Avedon

When I was in college, I took a basic photography class. That was the first time in my life I'd held a camera. We were given several assignments throughout the semester; one of which involved taking a portrait of someone. I was taking Aikido at the time as well and took a photo of my instructor, an older Japanese man who I respected deeply.

After I printed the photo, I thought it looked good and hoped it would convey the sense of wisdom and focus this man had. I showed it to another guy in my photography class, who had already been shooting for a while and was really good at it. He looked at it and bluntly said, "I wouldn't sign my name to it."

It was disheartening, but it also set the standard for every image I shot afterward. If the photo isn't good enough for me to not only hang on my wall, but to also sign my name to it, then I have to do better the next time. It's taken my a lot of years to get to where I'm at now, but I still push myself to do better work with every shoot. Some people like my work, but that's not good enough for me. I want A LOT of people to like my work.

So I'd say to master what you do; you have to constantly push yourself to perfect your art. "Good enough" isn't good enough. You have to find every flaw in your work and try not to repeat it. It takes time, patience, frustration, energy, money and dedication. There's simply no easy way to master this craft.

But, I do feel natural talent helps a lot as well and adds that extra life to an image that changes it from becoming a "technically perfect" image to a work of art.

there's this idea of Begin with the End in Mind. maybe you first have to learn/decide what makes a good photo before you can start making them yourself?

you can learn how to make technically sound photos but will they have any soul? will anyone get excited about them? or angry? or ready to call the cops?

maybe some people just have a unique vision but for me it has been a matter of stumbling upon photographers who do work that moves me, that is like peering into someone's soul (like the brothel photographer i mentioned).

but also i some people are more intuitive and just play and see what happens. they don't rigorously plan anything out. they just let inspiration strike and see where it takes them until they find their "style". but for me i don't want to be someone who does the same thing over and over (like being in a time loop) even if that is one road to success. look at that "painting with light" guy. after you see several of his paintings you've got the general idea and from then on it's just more of the same. and i think he eventually had a workshop full of other people executing his style?

Ezhini wrote: My suggestion is, get sepcific (for yourself, not to prove to anyone else) about what are the qualities of a good photographer and what makes a photograph beautiful. Once you have those understandings clear, then it is a matter of seeking means and methods to get there.

the 10,000 hours thing is fine but really if someone has an interesting way of seeing the world i think you will see that straight away. they don't need to shoot for 10,000 hours for their to be something interesting about their work.

i remember one guy who created these images with the most whacked colors (but very interesting). turns out he had some weird color issue with his eyes and thought they were normal! maybe the most important thing about a photographer is what makes them unique, what makes them interesting, what makes them any different from the ten thousand other photographers all trying to get good. they talk about people buying people and maybe that applies to art as well (people are basically buying a reflection of the mind of the artist).

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote: But, I do feel natural talent helps a lot as well and adds that extra life to an image that changes it from becoming a "technically perfect" image to a work of art.

But, I do feel natural talent helps a lot as well and adds that extra life to an image that changes it from becoming a "technically perfect" image to a work of art.

The psychologists found a direct statistical relationship between hours of practice and achievement. No shortcuts. No naturals.

The book also has Michael Jordan and they added up all the hours of practice from his college to his professional career...guess what the number was? 10,000 hrs. His career took off in his tenth year of playing ball. He had 4yrs in college + pro play. Not natural ability - Practice!

How you practice is very important though. Just shooting isn't practice by itself.

A person with the attitude, "I want to be an artist" has less chance of becoming any type of artist, than the one with the attitude, "I want to be an artist doing story boards for Pixar within the next four years," or "I want to be an artist painting chidren's portrait in oils in the methods of the Flemish masters."

The point is you have to get specific with your goals. Random and generic aiming does not result in anything worthwhile. That's why, "keep shooting," or "shooot a lot" will never be a good advice to become a good photographer - whatever that good means.

In your OP request, two words are crucial: the GOOD in good photographer, and BEAUTIFUL in beautiful photographs. Because both these terms are too generic and too subjective in that generality.

To make any worthwhile improvement in yourself, you have to set yourself tangible, achievable goals that are specifically subjective to your self, your apptitude, your tendencies and your resources.

As a good example of achieving good and beautiful by being specific, study the life and works of Wayne Thiebaud. He is a painter, but the exmaple still holds.

Repetition makes you better. But not mere random repetitiveness. Instead, targeted and systematic repetition of result-oriented practices surely will take you better at whatever you do.

My suggestion is, get sepcific (for yourself, not to prove to anyone else) about what are the qualities of a good photographer and what makes a photograph beautiful. Once you have those understandings clear, then it is a matter of seeking means and methods to get there.

Because there are NO GENERIC rules, methods and path ways to take to become a good photographer or to make beautiful photographs.

I personally know what I want my photographs to look like, but I ask a more generic question to find out how others found their skill or inspiration so as to possibly glean something from their responses that can make me better.

I know you don't really want to hear it, but every time I got out and shoot. I think I get better results than the time before.

Now the problem lies with making myself shoot more than just llamas. As I'm still not able to get them to book with me more than about 10 times a year. An I've got to say at that rate of practice, I'll be good in 100 years or so. But I still think if I can get myself to shoot every day. I'll learn to become "Good" a whole lot faster!

I appreciate all the replies so far. I feel the need to clarify that the reason I didn't want the "shoot more" response was that I already know it and I am already attempting to shoot more often.

I'm really looking for how others have come into their own so that maybe it can help me to find a path to being a better photographer. I realize that I'm not bad at it (not saying I'm good at it either) but I look at some others and think I wish I had their mastery of it. So I continue to work on it and will until I die. So I guess what I'm really asking is what was your path to becoming a good photographer?

Erik Ballew wrote: I know you don't really want to hear it, but every time I got out and shoot. I think I get better results than the time before.

Now the problem lies with making myself shoot more than just llamas. As I'm still not able to get them to book with me more than about 10 times a year. An I've got to say at that rate of practice, I'll be good in 100 years or so. But I still think if I can get myself to shoot every day. I'll learn to become "Good" a whole lot faster!

I certainly struggle with the llama thing too. I shot landscape almost exclusively for years, it wasn't until a few years ago that I really started shooting people, I figured I really like fashion and I really like photography so I would try to combine them. In my experience all those years of landscapes haven't helped me in fashion photography other than understand how my camera works. Maybe it helps others, but I don't think it has me.

masterful use of light including natural light is by far the largest factor in the creation of the image - the word "photography" means to create an image with light - light is the medium in which you are working

learn composition including perspective - the classic golden ratios. Study art. The same llama concept styling and pose can be "meh" or smashing depending on the perspective and composition.

Not more.... better. Shoot, have someone who knows what they are doing critique. And I don't mean, "gee, that's nice", I mean they tell you everything you did wrong and not so much on what you did right. Find someone that will kick your ass, not someone that will kiss it.

I'm not talking about the business side of photography, right now I don't care about money. I want to make art, I want to make something beautiful.

I want to know what things you did to learn how to make beautiful images. I will not accept the answer to "shoot more", this is obvious as all skills require practice.

Please impart your wisdom.

As with anything in life that you want to get better and proficient at it..

1. Find photographers you admire and research what they do (books, web, etc.)
2. Meet other photographers and learn from what they do.
3. Ask lots of questions. Be open to all responses and then decide, what might work for you and what will not..
4. And most Important.......
PRACTICE! PRACTICE! PRACTICE!

Timothy Bell wrote: ... but I look at some others and think I wish I had their mastery of it. ...

So that is the key. Ask yourself what is in the way to keep you from taking a shot like that. Try to imitate it to see how close you come, then ask around in critique forums if you are not able to figure out the difference in outcomes.

By the way, have you visited the Critique section? Send me a note when you do.

The vision is yours. Then figure out how to properly execute it. Learning light is key! Both natural and strobe. This is what separates a professional vs. an amateur. Be on a never ending quest to learn. Watch YouTube ...heck creativeLIVE.com gives free workshops on something about everyday. Even if not your type of photography you always pick up something to add to your arsenal. Good luck.

Look at work you like. Try and figure out how they did it. Try to copy it. Just don't lose yourself an become a clone of someone else like so many do. Read books. Read on line. If there are seminars and workshops (Ones that really teach NOT the gan bang shoots so prolifically advertised here on MM) try a couple of those. Talking to a good photographer and picking their brain is #1 on my list. See if you can 'Assist" for a good shooter. Learn Photoshop. NEVER buy Portrait Pro.

You mentioned "Art". Do you have aspirations towards 'real" art photography like Weston, Bullock and Adams? Or more like fashion shooters shooting "fashion nudes" or the T&A shooters who call their work 'art"? THe term IS very subjective. One person's art is another person's porn or crap.

And back to not losing yourself. If you get a good handle on the technical side. If you have or develop a good eye, you STILL have to develop a style. Best way to do that is only shoot what you love, what moves you and hopefully those emotions will add power to your images.

Not more.... better. Shoot, have someone who knows what they are doing critique. And I don't mean, "gee, that's nice", I mean they tell you everything you did wrong and not so much on what you did right. Find someone that will kick your ass, not someone that will kiss it.

I'm not sure I'm good enough to get the ass kissers yet. That aside I don't personally know any photographers that I think do the kind of work that I want to do and I'm fairly certain that If I ask Walter Iooss (my personal inspiration to photograph people) or anyone of his caliber to critique my work I'd be wasting my time. So I turn to the internet who seem to find my work too boring to critique thoroughly.

Conduct 100's of groupshoot events over a few decades... invite 1000's of amazing photographers far better than you to all your events. Watch what equipment they use... how they light, pose and direct their models... duplicate or even improve on their actions... and beat them at their own game... ...

R Michael Walker wrote: Look at work you like. Try and figure out how they did it. Try to copy it. Just don't lose yourself an become a clone of someone else like so many do. Read books. Read on line. If there are seminars and workshops (Ones that really teach NOT the gan bang shoots so prolifically advertised here on MM) try a couple of those. Talking to a good photographer and picking their brain is #1 on my list. See if you can 'Assist" for a good shooter. Learn Photoshop. NEVER buy Portrait Pro.

You mentioned "Art". Do you have aspirations towards 'real" art photography like Weston, Bullock and Adams? Or more like fashion shooters shooting "fashion nudes" or the T&A shooters who call their work 'art"? THe term IS very subjective. One person's art is another person's porn or crap.

And back to not losing yourself. If you get a good handle on the technical side. If you have or develop a good eye, you STILL have to develop a style. Best way to do that is only shoot what you love, what moves you and hopefully those emotions will add power to your images.

My vision is to do fashion photography that you would find on the covers of fashion magazines. Nudes aren't really my thing, I think they can be beautiful if done tastefully, but it isn't what I want to do. I do use Photoshop, have been using it since 6.0...not CS6...6.0. I'm still trying to find "my style" something that can been seen in my images and recognized even when the images have nothing to do with each other. Hopefully I'll find that one day.

I'm not talking about the business side of photography, right now I don't care about money. I want to make art, I want to make something beautiful.

I want to know what things you did to learn how to make beautiful images. I will not accept the answer to "shoot more", this is obvious as all skills require practice.

Please impart your wisdom.

--I'm not at the level to impart wisdom-- but I will say that aside from Practice, the great secret is : "Study the Masters." -- That was historical tradition in painting, music. Look at the work of those considered "Great" photographers---if you see something you like, copy it.
Until you know what a "Great" photo looks like, it'll be tough to create one yourself. All Art is a conversation with the work that has come before you.