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Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

Uh, not agreeing with you on most points, Tyme. I do think we have enough talent to do better than we have. I do think O'Brien's coaching isn't being effective for this current team. That's not FO kool-aid, that's me observing and formulating my own opinion. We have talent on this team. Not championship-caliber talent, but certainly better than 20-win talent. I watched Rick Carlisle make the playoffs with a patchwork, 8-man line-up.

And Nazr Mohammed is hardly going to come in here and improve us. The proposed trade personally didn't do much for me.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-11-2010 at 03:48 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

Uh, not agreeing with you on most points, Tyme. I do think we have enough talent to do better than we have. I do think O'Brien's coaching isn't being effective for this current team. That's not FO kool-aid, that's me observing and formulating my own opinion. We have talent on this team. Not championship-caliber talent, but certainly better than 20-win talent. I watched Rick Carlisle make the playoffs with a patchwork, 8-man line-up.

And Nazr Mohammed is hardly going to come in here and improve us. The proposed trade personally didn't do much for me.

Kid:

Just have to say this.... Nazr will help the Pacers more than Foster being out not playing. Ok, I said it.

2/3 of the Pacers roster is nothing more than rotational to benchwarmers at best. Could the team have a better record, sure, but how much better? I never saw it as talented enough to make the playoffs. I was generous in the thread on how many wins the Pacers would achieve this year by saying 37 or 38. What was your guess?

I'm going to upset some people when I say I thought McKey was a major underachiever as a player. Yes, he could play "D", but he never took advantage of his ability to be better. It just use to infuriate me to no end. I see this in Rush. IMO, if Rush is not traded this year, he had best be bringing his game together next year or a 4th year as a Pacer shouldn't be in his future.

I'm not sure the FO hadn't become frustrated enough with Rush's inconsistancy to the point of deciding to go another direction at SG, thus the offering him in the Charlotte trade. Maybe/hopefully, he gets the message and puts his whole game together on a consistant game to game basis. If not, then Rush can send me a card when he gets to his next home/team as far as I'm concerned.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

And for the record, if we got the #2 pick I'd absolutely take Turner with the idea of moving Rush to the bench.

I'd be absolutely THRILLED with a 3-wing rotation of Danny-Turner-Rush. No qualms about that at all.

If Turner lives up to his expectations that would have to be one of the best 3 wing rotations in the league a year or two down the line.

"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

Just have to say this.... Nazr will help the Pacers more than Foster being out not playing. Ok, I said it.

2/3 of the Pacers roster is nothing more than rotational to benchwarmers at best. Could the team have a better record, sure, but how much better? I never saw it as talented enough to make the playoffs. I was generous in the thread on how many wins the Pacers would achieve this year by saying 37 or 38. What was your guess?

I'm going to upset some people when I say I thought McKey was a major underachiever as a player. Yes, he could play "D", but he never took advantage of his ability to be better. It just use to infuriate me to no end. I see this in Rush. IMO, if Rush is not traded this year, he had best be bringing his game together next year or a 4th year as a Pacer shouldn't be in his future.

I'm not sure the FO hadn't become frustrated enough with Rush's inconsistancy to the point of deciding to go another direction at SG, thus the offering him in the Charlotte trade. Maybe/hopefully, he gets the message and puts his whole game together on a consistant game to game basis. If not, then Rush can send me a card when he gets to his next home/team as far as I'm concerned.

Tyme, let me just put it this way, and be truthful with your response, give it some honest thought:

Do you believe this team would have 20-21 wins right now if Rick Carlisle was here instead of JOB?

I can't. When I think about it, I just can't see that being the case. With Carlisle and this collection of players, we'd be vying for a playoff seed right now. Deep down, you know this. That indicates right there a coaching problem, not a personnel problem. Ya, the personnel could be improved, we are not the most talented team in the league, but a coaches job is to *maximize* the production with the players he has and do you honestly feel that this team currently has maximized production? The talent of this team has not decreased THAT much from last year. You could argue that it hasn't gone down at all. Was Jarrett Jack really worth 10-15 wins all by himself? Really? Maceo Baston and Rasho that much better than the two Jones? I'm not thinking so. There is a *clear*, visible, on-the-court difference in production and effectiveness across the board for this team from last year to this year.

----------------
As for Rush/McKey, they're only under-achievers when over-expectations are applied to them. Both of those guys were key contributors to very strong teams, and that's what you have to realize. Not everyone is built to be showcased --- and that's fine! I completely understand and appreciate their type of play as I've watched more and more basketball over the years, and played basketball myself. Those guys might not fill up the scoreboard, but they do *everything* else that puts your team in position to win, and on occasion they might even light it up. But they're not Danny Granger, and Danny Granger is not Brandon Rush, and trust me, there are things that Rush does a lot better than Granger. You have to realize that not everyone is going to develop into Scottie Pippen or whoever. Every player has their strengths and weaknesses, some more than others.

Rush is almost on par to Foster in terms of overall defensive contribution and rebounding at their respective positions, and yet I can guarantee you don't hold both guys to the same offensive expectations, and that right there is not reasonable. You expect Rush to be what, a 20ppg scorer for $2mil a year and he hasn't even finished his second season? He's already at 10ppg. This last month, he's at 13ppg and 6rpg, on top of defending the opponent's top offensive wing player. He obviously has things to improve, but.... duh, lol. He's in his 2nd season. He will do that. There's a perspective thing here, hand in hand with expectations. He'll get there eventually, just gotta be realistic and patient.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-11-2010 at 10:48 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

If we drafted Turner Rush would make an ideal sixth man who can play the 2 or the 3. I wouldn't trade him at all.

I'd be very tempted to keep both Rush and Turner. Turner is an atypical perimeter in that he is capable of doing a lot of things that make Brandon Roy so valuable for Portland. The position isn't as important with players like Brandon Roy or Evan Turner because they are so versatile. For example, they could make an impact with their passing and helping facilitate the offense even if they are at 2 or 3. Rush would probably love to play on the floor with somebody like Turner, who would help Rush with his current limitations with ball handling and shot creation (not an attack on Rush; just saying these aren't his strong points). Turner wouldn't have a problem setting up his teammates and making them better, and Rush would be happy to let other players handle the ball. Add a PF to Granger, Hibbert, Turner, Rush, and Price (maybe Tyler as well if he heals up) and you have a great core of players.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

Is it impossible for people around here to stay on topic and not let every single thread deteriorate into the exact same arguments in every thread?

That's EASY!

Yes.

You wouldn't ask this question if Jim O'Brien could coach his way into tanking because Troy Murphy stole rebounds from Tyler Hansbrough's Post-Concussion Syndrome diagnosis that was delivered on the draft selection of DeJuan Blair torn up by Larry Bird.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

You wouldn't ask this question if Jim O'Brien could coach his way into tanking because Troy Murphy stole rebounds from Tyler Hansbrough's Post-Concussion Syndrome diagnosis that was delivered on the draft selection of DeJuan Blair torn up by Larry Bird causing McRoberts to be irrelevant.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

Tyme, let me just put it this way, and be truthful with your response, give it some honest thought:

Do you believe this team would have 20-21 wins right now if Rick Carlisle was here instead of JOB?

I can't. When I think about it, I just can't see that being the case. With Carlisle and this collection of players, we'd be vying for a playoff seed right now. Deep down, you know this. That indicates right there a coaching problem, not a personnel problem. Ya, the personnel could be improved, we are not the most talented team in the league, but a coaches job is to *maximize* the production with the players he has and do you honestly feel that this team currently has maximized production? The talent of this team has not decreased THAT much from last year. You could argue that it hasn't gone down at all. Was Jarrett Jack really worth 10-15 wins all by himself? Really? Maceo Baston and Rasho that much better than the two Jones? I'm not thinking so. There is a *clear*, visible, on-the-court difference in production and effectiveness across the board for this team from last year to this year.

----------------
As for Rush/McKey, they're only under-achievers when over-expectations are applied to them. Both of those guys were key contributors to very strong teams, and that's what you have to realize. Not everyone is built to be showcased --- and that's fine! I completely understand and appreciate their type of play as I've watched more and more basketball over the years, and played basketball myself. Those guys might not fill up the scoreboard, but they do *everything* else that puts your team in position to win, and on occasion they might even light it up. But they're not Danny Granger, and Danny Granger is not Brandon Rush, and trust me, there are things that Rush does a lot better than Granger. You have to realize that not everyone is going to develop into Scottie Pippen or whoever. Every player has their strengths and weaknesses, some more than others.

Rush is almost on par to Foster in terms of overall defensive contribution and rebounding at their respective positions, and yet I can guarantee you don't hold both guys to the same offensive expectations, and that right there is not reasonable. You expect Rush to be what, a 20ppg scorer for $2mil a year and he hasn't even finished his second season? He's already at 10ppg. This last month, he's at 13ppg and 6rpg, on top of defending the opponent's top offensive wing player. He obviously has things to improve, but.... duh, lol. He's in his 2nd season. He will do that. There's a perspective thing here, hand in hand with expectations. He'll get there eventually, just gotta be realistic and patient.

In answer to your question, I'm not a RC proponent, I believe the current team would have a better record than current record with RC coaching. How much? Not that much to be in the 7-8 spot of the playoffs. What you apparently have forgotten is Carlisle was like Jimmy in he relied on and played his vets over youth. I'd like to have a dollar for every time a post complaining about that exact samething was posted. I'd have enough $$ to go on a cruise.

This deal of RC guiding the team after the brawl as if it was his coaching doesn't hold that much water with me. You and others are saying it was Carlisle's coaching that accomplished that. Refresh my memory, how many points, rebs, asts, steals, etc per game did Carlisle average that year? He didn't! It was the players. They were playing with PRIDE and an agenda to win over adversity and Carlisle happen to be the coach that helped guide the team. You need to go back to the archives and revisit how fans viewed Carlisle and his coaching for your memory is waning on what others were posting in regards to Carlisle's coaching. Now, b4 you ask, do I feel RC was a better coach than Jimmy? In some aspects, such as "D", but similiar in others such as relying on playing vets. I'm not sure if Carlisle would have given any of the young'ns the PT they have gotten under Jimmy. ("Yes UB, I said it.") I could say the same about Brown not playing youth that much as well.

For some reason, you and others feel I only see "O" #'s and am evaluating Rush by this. Please go back to any of my posts and point out I ever said that! READ one more time folks, I have a problem with Rush's inconsistant play. He's not making the best use of his GOD given talent to be the best player he can be. I'll concede he's in his 2nd year, but I don't like seeing the tendancy of waiting until the last 20 games to start playing a TOTAL game. It just plain and simple upsets me.

AND to whoever said Bayless was a bust your credibility took a big time nose dive, and I'm not even a Bayless supporter. Bayless IS NOT a bust by any stretch of the imagination. He's a 2nd year player just like the anointed Rush. Let's talk about whether he was a bust in his 5th year.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

So, I'll take the high road, refrain from childish stuff and simply ask you where you feel that JOB was instrumental in Rush going from bad to decent ??

Doubt that some here can grasp actual coaching tactics, but sitting a player when they don't do the things you want them to is an actual method used by coaches to get the players to come around to the coaches way of thinking.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

In answer to your question, I'm not a RC proponent, I believe the current team would have a better record than current record with RC coaching. How much? Not that much to be in the 7-8 spot of the playoffs. What you apparently have forgotten is Carlisle was like Jimmy in he relied on and played his vets over youth. I'd like to have a dollar for every time a post complaining about that exact samething was posted. I'd have enough $$ to go on a cruise.

This deal of RC guiding the team after the brawl as if it was his coaching doesn't hold that much water with me. You and others are saying it was Carlisle's coaching that accomplished that. Refresh my memory, how many points, rebs, asts, steals, etc per game did Carlisle average that year? He didn't! It was the players. They were playing with PRIDE and an agenda to win over adversity and Carlisle happen to be the coach that helped guide the team. You need to go back to the archives and revisit how fans viewed Carlisle and his coaching for your memory is waning on what others were posting in regards to Carlisle's coaching. Now, b4 you ask, do I feel RC was a better coach than Jimmy? In some aspects, such as "D", but similiar in others such as relying on playing vets. I'm not sure if Carlisle would have given any of the young'ns the PT they have gotten under Jimmy. ("Yes UB, I said it.") I could say the same about Brown not playing youth that much as well.

For some reason, you and others feel I only see "O" #'s and am evaluating Rush by this. Please go back to any of my posts and point out I ever said that! READ one more time folks, I have a problem with Rush's inconsistant play. He's not making the best use of his GOD given talent to be the best player he can be. I'll concede he's in his 2nd year, but I don't like seeing the tendancy of waiting until the last 20 games to start playing a TOTAL game. It just plain and simple upsets me.

AND to whoever said Bayless was a bust your credibility took a big time nose dive, and I'm not even a Bayless supporter. Bayless IS NOT a bust by any stretch of the imagination. He's a 2nd year player just like the anointed Rush. Let's talk about whether he was a bust in his 5th year.

So, the Pacers get to the playoffs following the worst incident in NBA history with a rag-tag bunch and most of our top players suspended or injured most of the year, and you give no credit to the coach...

But when we have most of our core players this year and we underperform, you lay no blame on the coach.

Got it.

Btw, the mentality around Pacerland when Carlisle directed us to the playoffs that year was pretty damn good in favor of Carlisle... there were some saying he deserved CotY consideration. It was a helluva job.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-12-2010 at 02:03 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

But when we have most of our core players this year and we underperform, you lay no blame on the coach.

Wow, there you go again saying things I supposedly said. I have never not put blame on Jimmy for his coaching. You know the system I constantly refer to as "helter skelter run n gun with little "D". You remind me of kids who only remember what benefits them or what is convenient for them to remember. I refer to that as "selective memory" and some seem to have a bad case of it.

PLEASE, don't act like the Pacers only achieved what they did b/c of Carlisle! You act like Carlisle did all by himself. I guess the players contributions and achievements under adverse circumstances didn't count, just Carlisle's coaching.

AGAIN, Rush is underachieving being the total player he could be by his own inconsistancy. He needs to bring his total game each and every time not the last 20 games of each season. If he wants to be a starter and play starter minutes, he needs to bring consistancy each game, or he needs to be a rotional bench player getting less PT. Either or! Personally, I hope he gets it together, but if he doesn't/can't I have no problem seeing him traded.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

Doubt that some here can grasp actual coaching tactics, but sitting a player when they don't do the things you want them to is an actual method used by coaches to get the players to come around to the coaches way of thinking.

And there's the concept of giving a player an opportunity to do what you want him to do.

We can (but won't) argue this forever and I still won't give JOB any credit for the way Rush has changed his game in the 2nd half of the season.

I'm just trying to reconcile with the informed opinion JOB gave of Brandon just about 5 weeks ago.

I'm really getting sick of the puff piece cover stories that act surprised every time Rush has a high scoring game. The angle is tired, and kinda stupid when you see 15 articles or post-game comments like it in one season. How can a guy always be breaking out, showing up, finally playing well?

Does the 20 point game this week make the 20 point game 2 weeks ago disappear or something?

I'm not trying to be Rush-defensive as much as to me this angle has just become silly. There's almost no actual data to back it, the guy has been having a very solid, steady progress the entire time he's been here, and the ONLY reason he has "lapses" is because the coach benches him and then tells everyone that Rush is struggling.

I could pull a game from DEC and FEB and you couldn't tell the difference in Brandon's game, just some slight improvements perhaps but hardly something remarkable or noteworthy.

What this article is to me is "JOB made a jacka** out of himself when he trashed out Brandon (again), and now we have to PR spin all the great numbers Brandon just put up (again)."

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

TWENTY GAMES AGO, Rush went on a streak of 8 straight double figure games, and 10 of 12 games total. There were games of 17, 19, 16 and 16 points.

He's been over 40% from 3 for 3 straight months, 38% or better for 4 straight months. He had a 21 point game 3 weeks ago.

He went 5-8 from 3 back on Jan 22nd. Heck, he went 16/4/3 vs CLE back in mid-November.

Pre-AS he was 8.7 and 4.1 reb with about .8 blks and steals per game
Post-AS he's at 10.6 and 5.2 reb, roughly similar stl and blk numbers
1.3 apg pre and post
But his MPG in the post-AS are up from 28.9 to 31.5 as well.

Not really some major shocking change. The team's main FGA guy was out and they were playing a team that is 23-40 themselves. Wow, just how did the coach "flip his switch" that night?

McKey's BEST year with the Pacers, 94-95
13.3 in 34 mpg
4.9 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.5 stl, 0.6 blk, 36% from the shorter 3pt line
7th pick in his draft class. 2.1 stl+blk from the team's defensive ace, number Rush is close to matching. More rebounds from the shorter SG Rush, clearly an advantage as a 3pt threat.

If only Brandon Rush would "live up to his potential" and stop underachieving.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

If only Brandon Rush would "live up to his potential" and stop underachieving.

Well done as usual when it comes to being a voice of balance and sanity re: Brandon Rush.

Although in fairness the board in general is a lot less hostile toward him than it was in the first two months of the season. There were at least half a dozen folks running around screaming "Bust!" and "Garbage!" and "Trade for a bag of chips!" then. Strangely silent now, for the most part.

"Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

"Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire"Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Teammates revel in Rush's improvement

So, the Pacers get to the playoffs following the worst incident in NBA history with a rag-tag bunch and most of our top players suspended or injured most of the year, and you give no credit to the coach...

But when we have most of our core players this year and we underperform, you lay no blame on the coach.

Got it.

Btw, the mentality around Pacerland when Carlisle directed us to the playoffs that year was pretty damn good in favor of Carlisle... there were some saying he deserved CotY consideration. It was a helluva job.

Carlisle, plus adding the toughness of Dale Davis inside helped Reggie reach the second round that year with a team that had more issues than this one with respect to player availability. Carlisle's impact was very evident to all who watched because of how he changed the rotations to match his own available players' strengths instead of changing lineups due to the strengths of the opposition. That instilled confidence in the players, especially with the added boost of Dale Davis.