The no-casual sex challenge: would you do it?

This week, Time Out New York magazine featured a brilliant stand-off between two women on a subject that is close to many a serial-dating-female's heart: their stance on casual sex. To do it, or not to do it? Now that is still the question, even despite the fact that Helen Gurley Brown (the '60s editor of Cosmo and author of Sex and the Single Girl) famously intoned that yes, a woman can indeed have sex like a man. Sex-loving Germaine Greer jumped on the sexual bang wagon, enthusing that yes, sex should be about the "physical" not the emotional, and that women shouldn't be possessive about their conquests.

Yet despite how much feminism hoopla exists around the subject, and no matter how many times we are told that women needn't be afraid of putting themselves out there if the chemistry is right, the lighting is good and he paid for her dinner (even if it is the first date, the first encounter or with a complete stranger), there are unfortunately some grave emotional consequences ...

This is all thanks to a magical (yet detrimental) little hormone that gets released into our bodies when women do indeed do the dirty with a bloke that she mightn't even have feelings for until the fateful night. It's called oxytocin - otherwise known as "the cuddle hormone". The way it works is this: even if she's not that into him to begin with, she'll inevitably start to have strong sentimental feelings towards the bloke she's just bonked thanks to the surge of hormones racing in her blood and affecting her brain.

As former groupie Dawn Eden wrote in the Times Online while expounding on the subject: "Women are built for bonding. We are vessels and we seek to be filled. For that reason, however much we try and convince ourselves that it isn't so, sex will always leave us feeling empty unless we are certain that we are loved, that the act is part of a bigger picture that we are loved for our whole selves not just our bodies."

Sadly for women, men have caught onto their little act of pretending like they never usually "sleep with a man on the first date", that this "one time" is "special" and she's different to every other girl he's ever been with.

This is the view of my newly single male friend Daniel says, who says his last relationship taught him an invaluable lesson: "No matter what a woman says - never, ever date a chick that sleeps with you on the first date. Ever."

Daniel kindly explained to me (despite his vitriolic break-up which turned him into a nervous wreck around women that came across as too easy) that when a woman sleeps with a man on the first date, and the beginning of the relationship is subsequently often filled with sparks, chemistry and a load of sexy time in the bedroom, after the initial horizontal high wears off, the relationship quickly goes south. "There is no foundation to lean on when the fantasy wears off," he tells me. "Which is never a healthy or fun situation to find yourself in. Even if you're a guy."

Now considering we're all modern femmes who don't adhere to such rules any longer, I felt the need to ask him to elaborate so I could share his sentiment with women across the country who aren't exactly sure about what stance to take on the matter.

Because as the girls in Time Out so articulately argued, what's to say that not sleeping with him would prove that he might treat you a little differently? What's to say that not sleeping with him means he's a different sort of bloke who doesn't actually only want a bonk from her?

"I don't really know," he answered. "Something is just different when you know she's probably done it with dozens of guys before you."

"How about a self-imposed no-casual sex challenge just for fun?" my colleague Donna suggested, in an attempt to help women ascertain the answers to the sexual conundrum.

She might just have a point. What if, like a month of no alcohol, women decided there'd be a month of no casual sex (or any sex for that matter), and hence would give any dude who came her way a full 30 days to prove to her he just wasn't in it for the horizontal hanky panky. Now wouldn't that be a challenge.

Or perhaps, we've simply got it all wrong. As Ella Good wrote in the Time Out story, "the bottom line is, good things don't necessarily come to those who wait".

LATEST COMMENTS

Well, I have succeeded in the 30 day no to casual sex challenge 12 times in a row...

Maybe I need a 30 day yes to casual sex challenge and just sleep with any old option?

Posted by: MJC on March 24, 2009 5:56 PM

I think that a lot of the negative behaviour which men inflict on us women is because of all the girls out there who will sleep with them on a first date. If he can get sex after only a couple of hours, of meeting a woman why should he even try with me if I decide to hold off for a few dates/weeks?

Posted by: caz on March 24, 2009 6:34 PM

As a guy I can honestly say that sex on a first date has ZERO bearing on whether I have a relationship or not with the woman. I make that decision based on how well I get along with her. Had plenty of casual sex relationships that did not last because in the end we just did not click.

Guys can distinguish between sex and a relationship easily.

Posted by: dean on March 24, 2009 6:34 PM

Why sign up? Been living like this for 5 months already, not for lack of chance, but only for lack of meaningful relationship, which only now seems to be a real valid chance on the horizon. So seems like its a winner of a plan.. no really.

Posted by: OS&YepAlreadyDoingThat on March 24, 2009 6:39 PM

i don't bother to get to know girls i just use for sex. why would i ever care about her beyond what she has in her pants. i'm outta there when the deed is done. if she's a keeper, no way i'd treat her with disrespect. you'll find most guys to be like this.

Posted by: r0y on March 24, 2009 7:07 PM

Men will never change...they are basically still cave men. Why are women trying so hard to be like men in regards to sex? It's a waste of time and effort. Even 500 years from now, men will still be men. Which man would want to date an alpha female anyway trying so hard to be like a man? It's a BIG. TURN. OFF.

That said, yes, women are regarded as cheap when they have sex on the first date. The longer you let him wait, the more chances he'll stay.

Posted by: Vic on March 24, 2009 7:24 PM

I think women shouldn't have sex on the first date because a date is not about sex per se. A date is about romance. Sex is sex and although all you people in your 20's think it's the holy grail, you are wrong. Your hormones are talking but you do have a mind... listen to it. If you have a very thick skin and are wanting sex after a great time on the first date fine ... but IT DOESN'T MEAN A THING...you don't KNOW each other!!

Posted by: jane doe on March 24, 2009 7:29 PM

Hey gals, the most important 'rule is:

DON'T LOSE YOUR MYSTERY. Why??

1. It ends the chase and turns a guy off (though he will NEVER admit it, he's probably fantasising about another woman now as a result)

2. According to the latest research, so many chemicals are sprayed around the female brain when you make love with a man, you become attached to him. And that's why women get stuck with LOSERS. They don't even like the guy, but they are attached.

3.The BEST tactic is to wear his nerves to shreds with suspense. The longer the male beast is made to cool his heels, the harder he will fall.

Posted by: Dangerous dame. on March 24, 2009 7:30 PM

Good topic,

Ultimately comes down to what you're intentions are. This is make take from a male's (my) perspective.

If you're not pursuing a serious relationship, you must be honest first - before you sleep with her. Simply say "I'm not looking for a relationship at this time, but really enjoy being with you". Know most women take this as a challenge and try to 'convince' him he should be with her, most times failing, but at least they were warned. This is important because it shows you are mature and sets the tone. You will lose 25% of potential first-date-shag's this way, but the remaining 75% will be easier to deal with after the deed is done because it will get weird in some way or another, always does but at least you can rest knowing you were upfront before.

If you are looking for a relationship, DO NOT SLEEP WITH HER ON THE FIRST DATE!!

I don't care who she is or whatever the circumstances, do not do it. And more importantly, do it for you. Reason being, sex can complicate things. Just as Oxytocin is released for women, there is a bond created in men's minds as well. Make sure you enjoy being around her despite a sexual relationship. Believe me, it doesn't matter how beautiful she is, or what she can do in bed, that stuff never is enough to sustain a relationship in the long run. Make sure she's worth it.

Yes, I just said it. Guys, don't give it up just because you can, have class and dignity. She should be honoured you will sleep with her (and you will be honoured you can sleep with her). I know most women simply think they hold the keys to the dirty, but showing her you're not just about that and you don't just sleep with anyone shows her you have respect for yourself, control, and are deeper than that. That also being said it drives them crazy...

So if you want sort-term quantity with no quality and most likely no relationship - sleep with her.

If you want sort-term frustration followed by long-term quantity and quality with a solid canvas for a relationship - wait it out, at least 1 month.

Worked for me.

My two 'cents.

Steve-O

Posted by: Steve-O on March 24, 2009 7:32 PM

Amy..... your prayers have been answered. A blog that has been specifically chosen for you. Now... deep breaths..... gather yourself... and let fly.

I hope everyone is ready for what could potentially be the longest and most draining post in history.

Going back to the subject... if a woman is single and is feeling horny or sexually attracted to someone... go for it. Who are we to tell them what's right and what's wrong?

Be an adult and make your own decision.

Posted by: qualityoverquantity on March 24, 2009 7:33 PM

Why aren't guys able to grow some brains and realise that when they tell all and sundry that they'd "never date a girl who sleeps with a guy on the first date because she has probably done it before", that they are ruining the chances of every bloke (including themselves) in getting a first night bonk in the future!

And why do men insist on trying to sleep with any woman on the first date, yet try to convince themself that they dont want a relationship with a woman who sleeps with a guy on the first date?!?! And after a first night conquest they'll tell their female friends that they cant take the woman seriously because she gave in the first night - yet the same guy will gladly attempt to bed the very next woman on the first date. Its like we think the number of men a woman has slept with (on the first date or otherwise) is inversely proportional to the woman's ability as a wife!!??

And men wonder why women don't put out so easily, or feel liberated and secure enough to explore their sexual fantasies with their partner!!

If men could stop being so precious about other guys getting into women's nether regions before them we'd all be much happier and saner.

Posted by: Brian on March 24, 2009 7:39 PM

Chicks that put out on a first date are nothing more prostitutes. And will get treated as such.

Posted by: Chris on March 24, 2009 7:44 PM

Heh! Story of my life. I'm not really the casual sex type. It takes me time to build some rapport with a woman, before I feel like making advances.

By then, of course, I'm usually firmly planted in the friends zone...

good things don't necessarily come to those who wait indeed!

Posted by: Markus on March 24, 2009 7:55 PM

30 says no casual sex, not going to happen. Women are addicted to male attention and the best way to get male attention is to give it up.

If you don't give it up there is a girl around the corner and up the road who will. And you dear and with your 30 day rule will be left with no male eyes on you.

Posted by: Dan on March 24, 2009 8:19 PM

Oh, and if you really like to challenge me, what about a 30-day CASUAL Sex challenge? ;)

Posted by: Markus on March 24, 2009 8:20 PM

I dont see what the big deal is.

I dated my girlfriend for over 2 months before we had sex. At least 15 'dates'(many full day) and she slept over probably about 5 times beforehand.

I wasn't ready, and I wanted to be sure that she didn't just want to sleep with me either. If she had asked to stay over within the first month I wouldn't have been very impressed.

She said she was happy to wait as long as I wanted.

Posted by: Thomas on March 24, 2009 8:46 PM

This topic seems to cross over from straight casual sex relationships to not sleeping with someone on the first date, which are surely two different topics?

Poor Daniel has had a bad experience and is now trying to pin it on what happened on the first night, rather than anything else within it. And seems to be making it about the woman instead of about anything else. If he wants to say that HE doesn't want to sleep with a girl on the first date because HE wants to find out what's there without the sex, fine... but making it "no matter what she says" is a bit of a cop out.

"Something is just different when you know she's probably done it with dozens of guys before you."

Right... but if you do it with her, she's not expected to think the same of you? Or even if she does, she's not to think badly of you?

Maybe - and it might be a crazy idea - people (male or female) are people, and each person has their right to choose when to have sex and has to deal with the consequences accordingly. That can include not being the kind of person who can detach sex from emotion, and being adult enough to recognise that and do what is right for YOU.

I think post-coital feelings of attachment can happen with both sexes. I have had casual 'relations' (both short and long term) with men and I have had enough instances where I was really happy to keep it that way and they started to get emotionally involved.

Yes there are differences between the sexes but nothing is absolute and everyone needs to take responsibility for their own choices and actions!

Posted by: melissakp on March 24, 2009 8:53 PM

I am not interested in contrived rules or games or tests for relationships (in the hypothetical situation that I was interested in one right now).

Putting up walls and games and tests only get in the way of that and turns me off almost instantly.

Holding out to test a guy will only bring in the spineless, nutless and gutless tools who can't get any anywhere else and will cling on in the blind hope they might eventually get somewhere. Any normal guy will get sick of a large part of a relationship being absent and look elsewhere thinking you're probably not that interested and only want him for company on a night out (where he pays . . .).

Trying to manipulate things through your pu55y like it is some sort of magical prize to gain the upper hand won't get you anywhere.

30 days is a tough challenge, best of luck to anyone who attempts it. I failed a similar challenge earlier this year...

Posted by: JamesHK on March 24, 2009 9:07 PM

I made a big mistake a week or so ago. I slept with a guy who I've known for years and dated several times over the years but never slept with.
In recent months the chemistry between us has been mounting. So when he asked me over to watch a dvd I rationalised that it wasn't the firt date at all. I also thought it was just going to be a bit of a fun so I showed up late after a few drinks with the girls... But... HORROR! It was so so so great. The happy hormones kicked in... And he never called. I guess he thinks I'm a player.

Darn those mooshy feelings that appear after great sex!

Posted by: Anna on March 24, 2009 9:12 PM

Posted by: MJC on March 24, 2009 5:56 PM

*meet*

Posted by: Markus on March 24, 2009 8:20 PM

Now the pair of you, go get cracking on that 30-day casual sex challenge!! Good luck, and remember, if it's not on, it's not on. Please report your findings upon completion of the 30 days

Posted by: melissakp on March 24, 2009 8:53 PM

Why, hello there! :) A pleasant surprise to see your name around here :).

Are you back from the land of leprechauns? Are you well? Are you happy?? Are you still lusting after that footballer type person whose name escapes me at this present time? Are you sick of my Qs yet? :)

Posted by: anechka-jane on March 24, 2009 9:21 PM

I am not interested in contrived rules or games or tests for relationships (in the hypothetical situation that I was interested in one right now).

Putting up walls and games and tests only get in the way of that and turns me off almost instantly.

Holding out to test a guy will only bring in the spineless, nutless and gutless tools who can't get any anywhere else and will cling on in the blind hope they might eventually get somewhere. Any normal guy will get sick of a large part of a relationship being absent and look elsewhere thinking you're probably not that interested and only want him for company on a night out (where he pays . . .).

Trying to manipulate things through your pu55y like it is some sort of magical prize to gain the upper hand won't get you anywhere.

Whe it comes to casual sex everyone is different. I find sex is a great bonding activity between friends and I never have any problem treating it as such.

"Something is just different when you know she's probably done it with dozens of guys before you."

Most of us have, so get over it. Male insecurity is a stupid reason for celibacy.

Posted by: Mmouse on March 24, 2009 9:43 PM

Now the pair of you, go get cracking on that 30-day casual sex challenge!! Good luck, and remember, if it's not on, it's not on. Please report your findings upon completion of the 30 daysPosted by: anechka-jane on March 24, 2009 9:21 PM
Heh! My location (central Europe) might be a slight obstacle...

Posted by: Markus on March 24, 2009 9:48 PM

I avoid casual sex at all costs!

It has emotionally devastating consequences for me.

I don't want to be used and tossed out by some asshole.

If a girl is going to let herself be exploited like that then she would be better off to become a prostitute and then she would at least get paid!

I say not to sex for at least 1-2 months of dating a guy. period. I think all girls should. It's in their best interest.

If girls participate in the hookup culture then they perpetuate it and this discourages dating and romance.

Girls dont benefit from casual sex like men. They never get as much out of it as guys.

The best it can be is cold and empty, but most often, it is emotionally devastating.

Posted by: amy on March 24, 2009 9:49 PM

Posted by: melissakp on March 24, 2009 8:53 PM

Ahh, it's good to have you back! Be careful though, they're not used to sanity and reason around these parts no more.. ;-)

What do you think

Personally, I think the "challenge" has been left open to misinterpretation.. Is it 30 days of "No casual sex"? Or, waiting for 30 days after you've met someone before you have sex with them?

Meh, I guess I'll just sit back and gleefully study the rabid masses in their predisposed habitats..

30 days of no casual sex? Pfft! A walk in the park. 30 days of not having sex with someone that you've met, and are involved with?

Well, they'll just have to forgive the hard, throbbing, intrusion.... of the headaches of frustration that I get.. when I'm pressed against their side... but aside from that, I've always been fine with waiting.. :-P

Posted by: mattrim on March 24, 2009 9:49 PM

hah!!

30 days? You're joking.

That's a walk in the park.

Try 7 months :)

Posted by: Me on March 24, 2009 9:52 PM

I have been with my husband nearly twenty years and I slept with him on the first date. I just thought I had a healthy libido but in some mens eyes (fortunately not my husband's) I'm clearly a slut. I wasn't really looking for a long term relationship at the time but obviously we hit it off.

We have three children now but can still sit in a restaurant and happily talk to each other all evening. We have probably the happiest marriage of any couple I know. Largely that is due to him being a great guy but I think the fact that I STILL like having sex with him is also a factor.

All you guys who make value judgements about women's sexuality
and seek out women who ration out sex after a 'suitable' number of dates, will probably be the same ones complaining about wives who never want to have sex with them a few years after marriage - see Sam de Brito's blog today.

Posted by: Happily married on March 24, 2009 10:08 PM

Girls dont benefit from casual sex like men. They never get as much out of it as guys.

The best it can be is cold and empty, but most often, it is emotionally devastating.

Posted by: amy on March 24, 2009 9:49 PM

You disappoint me Amy. I tried talking you up and this is the best you can come up with!

Posted by: qualityoverquantity on March 24, 2009 10:11 PM

I've had sex on a first date and still been seeing her 2yrs later... infact we're still together. If you like her you like her. 1st, 3rd or 5th date makes no difference but an enforced 30 days?? You must be joking. That's more than a month if you count Feb! If she won't sleep with you after 2-3wks then I'd think something was wrong and no amount of 'honest' reasons would work.

Posted by: Horatio on March 24, 2009 10:11 PM

My location (central Europe) might be a slight obstacle...

Posted by: Markus on March 24, 2009 9:48 PM

oh
yeah, that *does* make it a bit tricky..

Posted by: anechka-jane on March 24, 2009 10:17 PM

Posted by: Bender on March 24, 2009 9:27 PM

Tch, tch...such aggression you have there. Sounds like you end up waiting around too much - probably because your ladies are bailing before they even get into bed.

Posted by: DD on March 24, 2009 10:32 PM

This is ridiculous. Especially quoting the likes of Germaine Greer who paved the way for women to know themselves! Why is it ok for men to sleep around and we women are STILL stuck with the old ¨she's probably done it with dozens of guys before you¨? Give me a break.

If I sleep with a guy on the ¨first date¨ it´s because I find him attractive. If I don´t it´s because the chemsitry is just working differently or not at all and only time will tell. Everyone is different.

This is just silly.

Posted by: TG on March 24, 2009 10:59 PM

No what; it is a simple thing to overcome. Don't have sex before you get married. that way you are already commited to the relationship. Same goes for blokes.

Posted by: Sir Sam on March 24, 2009 11:01 PM

Hi everyone,
I am a young women who has recently decided that I'm just going to have one year of celibacy. It's not overly about the sex or meeting or not meeting the right man. It's just a self respect thing. Time to cleanse and give myself a time when sex is just not important. It seems to me... there is always someone somewhere you can be with, relationship or otherwise. Some guy (often way below your standards) who you end up with because he's there. Why do it just because? So now when I meet a guy out and he starts the your so beautiful routine, and the Im not usually affectionate but I really like you talk, I just smile and think thats nice, but prove it! Invite me out to dinner and call, show up when you say you will and if Im watching a movie with you it doesnt give you automatic license to start mauling me! Thy womb is sacred and I'm raising the bar. If more women did this then cheap talk and hurt and the used feeling that is so common after a one night stand (even if you initiated and enjoyed it!!) wouldn't happen. The attachment comes and women lose a little part of themselves. When I next meet a nice guy who I like I want to be able to hold off until it feels so right that it's not something I question. But I also want to be able to offer him a whole person. An intelligent, beautiful women who hasn't let any guy (because I was lonely etc.) into my pants! So for your own sake, I ask focus on your lives and careers and self respect and you will attract a man that meets you head on with integrity... not the guy who "when I first met I didn't like thaaat much, but then we hung out and some stuff happened and now I really like him... but he won't pick up the phone?" Sorry babe, but you gave it away too easily and it doesn't matter what you do, even if he quite likes you he is never going to really settle with you! Good luck, women of the world. Hold your head high and ask yourself when you next meet a guy, is this guy really worthy of my love, my body and the investment of a small part of my soul. If you have doubts, walk away. When you wake up the next moring you will feel ten thousand times higher than if you wake up next to him and you are shown the door (or dropped at your house) with a I'll call you and a kiss on the forehead.

Posted by: Catherine on March 24, 2009 11:19 PM

I know someone that doesn't 'like' women he has sex with on the first date. But then why does he accept their advances and have sex with them?

Personally, I have not had sex on the first date. Came very close to it but didn't do it.

Being divorced, I am a firm believer in chemistry. (Something I didn't have with my ex.) I think if chemistry is good then communication is good. However, we all have short attention spans.

Posted by: watching life pass by on March 25, 2009 12:06 AM

Wow!
These comment are seriously starting to resemble the old slut-vs-stud debate: i.e. it's less acceptable for women to have many sexual partners than it is for men; men only want sex and women only want relationships; women who just want sex are somehow "trying too hard to be like men" or are less interesting for their personalities.

Wow!
Is Australian society still so rooted in such black-and-white, sexist notions of sexuality and intimacy? In that simplistic old chestnut of sex vs romance/love? I thought we'd moved on from either/or debates and learned to recognise that there are myriad ways that people form meaningful connections with one another and they are not all based on whether we choose to have sex early or later in the formation of a relationship.

Making rules for yourself - especially these fellas who've clearly based a whole bunch of assumptions about women's characters and their own ability to form meaningful bonds with women on whether or not a woman wants casual sex, wants sex full stop or sees delaying sex as some kind of prize or tool of psycho-romantic manipulation is a sad self-imposed limitation. I mean, come on, fellas, by writing off the women who choose to indulge in the same sexual pleasure that you do, you're disregarding quite a lot of people who have something crucial in common with you!

Or do you just want to live in this hypocritical fantasy that your life partner should be everything that you're not?

This whole thing is about intentions, isn't it? A mate of mine dated a girl for 2 months and then after they had sex he called it off having "achieved" his goal. Another mate of mine is married to a woman he slept with after first-date sex.

If you're so limited that can't get past the woman-for-sex or woman-for-relationship dichotomy, you should just bloody acknowledge it from the get-go... you might just find that suits your date just fine!

Posted by: jo on March 25, 2009 12:09 AM

Girls dont benefit from casual sex like men. They never get as much out of it as guys.

The best it can be is cold and empty, but most often, it is emotionally devastating.

Posted by: amy on March 24, 2009 9:49 PM

You disappoint me Amy. I tried talking you up and this is the best you can come up with!

It's a good thing amy is a girl because she patently can't rise to the occassion. :{

I would have thought that amy may have at least broached the issue of casual sex participants placing so much trust in someone - on both the bloke's part as well as the woman's, within a period of time that couldn't possibly indicate anything deeper or personally and bodily safer than face value.

Not sure about everyone else, but placing that kinda level of trust in an almost total stranger isn't my idea of "rational" or "self-presevatory" behaviour.

For a gambling minded person, the "Casual Sex" path would represent poor odds - certainly in the "long term relationship" stakes. It's like taking a punt without prior knowledge of a filly's form or true state of health!

I don't think I can honestly say that I've ever had sex with a woman that I didn't know in some capacity for at least a few months before making love - not that that necessarily prevented little Miss Herpes from managing to make a mockery of not screwing someone until you've known them long enough to at least judge their character.

No system is infallible. Bummer that... :{

My friend at college; on the other hand, had casual sex with many a woman he'd met only a matter of minutes before.

Not all of these women were left feeling cold, empty and emotionally scarred - in fact the vast majority expressed how their lives would have felt empty knowing they had the chance to screw this guy and they hadn't...

I kinda got to see how thoroughly 'whacked' some chicks' head spaces can be, with the way these women behaved around my friend and the risk they took in entrusting the knowledge of what they'd done in people like myself.

I could have been a right crim - and truly screwed them over, yet that thought never ever entered their heads; as fortunately for them it never entered mine as an alternative. Lust was the only thing that mattered to them. They wanted to experience it more than the fear of negative repercussions for doing so could ever dissuade them.

That's the nature of temptation.

To this day, I carry the secret of many a woman who didn't want it known that they'd had wanton, mindlessly animalistic carnal enjoyment of the basest kind with my friend.

I wish I could feel animosity or resentment towards these women for placing so many things in jeopardy just to "scratch an itch that wouldn't ever go unless it was scratched" - but I can only see them as human beings who's resolve crumbled in the face of the choice to live life wondering about something or dieing happy that they'd found out, regardless of whether it was worth it or not in other people's eyes.

Oh to be able to condemn people for being human, or making mistakes throughout their lives... :{

Why is it impossible for some people to see the benefit of making mistakes and surviving them?!

Fortunately nature "sees" it, even if some people just won't.

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 1:01 AM

For me I find women fall into one of four categories:

1 - the women I really don't find myself wanting to know in any way.

2 - The women I like but am not sexually attracted to. These are potential friends.

3 - The women I am into enough to want to shag, but not into enough to actually want a relationship with.

4 - The women I am REALLY into.

I think a lot of guys are also like this. All girls assume they deserve to be Cat 4 (a keeper), when often they are only Cat 3 (a diversion) to the guy.

Basically a Cat 4 girl is the one a guy will swim through broken glass to be with and will wait quite happily for sex to take place. When we are really into a girl, they will KNOW. Men aren't good at subtle.

Hence if a girl wants to know if she is a "keeper" (Cat 4) or a "diversion" (Cat 3) then hold off on sex for a bit. We'll wait for the right girl quite happily.

As far as casual sex, if you know you are Cat 3, and are happy with it, then go for it. Just don't try and change the rules the next morning.

And if you know deep down you aren't going to be happy with it, then don't do it. Sleeping with a guy won't make him any more into you. Girls don't EVER move from Cat 3 to Cat 4 (they CAN however, move the other way).

Posted by: Manning on March 25, 2009 1:28 AM

My two longest relationships started with sex on the night we met. The second of these lasted over eight years.

I didn't think for a second that she was easy. I just thoght I was too charming to be resisted.

Posted by: Brando on March 25, 2009 1:56 AM

I would just have to echo what a couple of others have said - do what feels right/comes naturally. I'm sure many women can have casual sex and feel good about it and not get attached. I am not and never was that woman, and always had to get to know the bloke for a while first and LIKE him. The one time I slept with a guy that I didn't know too well and wasn't sure if I clicked with him on a mental/emotional level, the sex just wasn't any good and I wanted out of the "relationship" pretty quick. You just have to do what feel right and comfortable for you.

Posted by: Pomegranate on March 25, 2009 3:52 AM

I haven't had sex in over 4 years, so this challenge is easy. I've succeeded 48 times already. In fact, I've never been with a woman who wanted sex with me on a first date. The earliest for me is 4 months into the dating. I think it comes down to a woman with an attractive man. When she's with someone like me, who is not attractive, it's an easy choice for her. Unfortunately. :-(

Posted by: Sam Gunderson on March 25, 2009 4:32 AM

another outstanding mindless idiot column that perpetuates teh natuaral differences in the human species. Why cant you accept that not all people are the same and that they don't all desire the shallow physical cravings that you so ignorantly promote.Get a life idiot.

Posted by: Alba Tross on March 25, 2009 4:49 AM

I recently experienced post-first shag rejection for the first time.

I have often slept with men on the first date and aside from this occasion, they have always followed up. On occasion the follow-up has presented a situation in which one of us seeks something more serious, and the other no, but on the whole I have fortunately sidestepped uncomfortable or painful experiences.

As I was unaccustomed to post-coital rejection, the recent experience was unnerving and reminded me that I ought be more careful in choosing casual relations. Out of character, I went home with someone I had never met before. I was newly single and he was there... It was fine but I never heard from him again.

I think that it was obvious that he was not going to call and I also think that I can normally recognise the type. In fact it is probably for this reason that I have avoided the situation in the past (and not because I am stunningly beautiful or incredible in the sack!). I wish I could be helpful and explain the exact characteristics of this type of guy, but I think it is just something you notice when they first put on the charms.

With regard to whether or not to wait... I personally find it difficult to wait. If I like him, I want to know whether it is going to work physically.

I also would never wait for fear of what he will think of me. If he is the type that will reject me because I "put out" too quickly, then we are probably not compatible anyway. Who knows what other sexist ideas he has?

Posted by: Chiquilla on March 25, 2009 5:38 AM

Chicks that put out on a first date are nothing more prostitutes. And will get treated as such.

Posted by: Chris on March 24, 2009 7:44 PM

You're right Chris, and don't even get me started on GUYS who want to have sex on the first date. SHEESH! What a bunch of dirty little manwhores they must be, poking their tool into any orifices they can find.

If this kind of behaviour keeps up, one day people will be having sex with each other after meeting randomly at a pub or club, instead of after a romantic date.

Posted by: Miss Dynamite on March 25, 2009 6:18 AM

I'm thoroughly confused by this blog. Surely casual sex, and waiting 30 days to have sex with someone you're interested in are two different topics altogether?

30 days of no sex is one thing, but going 30 days without sex with someone you're involved with just for the sake of making him "prove to her he just wasn't in it for the horizontal hanky panky" seems absolutely ridiculous. If you genuinely aren't comfortable having sex with the person in that timeframe, fair enough, but holding out for an arbitrary number of days as some kind of test is yet another immature and stupid game there's no reason to play.

Posted by: sens on March 25, 2009 6:24 AM

I met a fantastic woman and slept with her on our first date. A few years later I married her. 9 Years on and we have children and are still madly in love.

Go ahead and try your no sex challange. I still think you're better off giving any bloke who thinks what's good for the goose isn't acceptable for the gander a wide berth.

Just be yourself.

Posted by: Guido Pestoni on March 25, 2009 7:04 AM

Here we go again.
Most women enjoy casual sex while waiting for ‘the one,’ & some women will never have a relationship & despite the claim of a man drought will always find a willing casual sex partner. (This column continually proves it.)
Some women are just like the stereo typical men they used to complain about, enjoy casual sex yet complain about it.

Some women can have casual sex with one (or more) guy(s) & need male friends to compete the while package. I got over women’s attitudes.
I’m a compete package & that’s what a relationship is.
Issue became the FWnoB wanted to know why men used them! WTF, they were telling me I wasn’t good enough but the guys they ‘dated’ & thought were, used them!

That’s when I woke up. My summation is, some men (players) do use lies to get what they want, casual sex but most women use sex & lies to get what they want, which is a better lifestyle. Women use sex as bargaining power (move from casual sex to a relationship) or loss of sex to get what they want, when in a relationship!

If they can’t move from casual to perm, women will always claim he was using her but who was using who?

Females can tell me I’m wrong but experience & blog posts are enough proof. How many times do you read about love, it’s mostly about sex!

No casual sex, yeh I’ve done it but in most cases, the women just f**** around while I waited like the gentlemen I was. A few FWB / FB set me straight (the 1st was the source of advice about my no sex with me but sex with nearly everybody else date! Funny thing was dating the women I was, convinced her friend I was a player for her to play with me! That’s how I got my education & experience on women.

No casual sex, that would be a novel experience for some, I've already been there.

Agree with Qlty over Qunty, Amy's post will be worth reading.

Posted by: MrNoLongerConfused. on March 25, 2009 7:10 AM

I think the main reason society views sex on the first date differently for men vs. women is simply a reaction to how much easier it is for women to come by sex.

Let's face it, the overwhelming majority of women between the age of 18 and 70 (regardless of looks, race, career, marital status or personality) could find a sexual partner any time of day or night by simply walking down the street and asking men, one after the other, if they'd like to go home and do her. Within ten minutes flat, she'd be on her way home with someone. Men are generally just way less particular about who, where or why they're getting it, just so long as they have a willing partner giving to them.

Take men though. Unless you're a movie star, stark staring filthy rich or one a select few born with looks, charm, luck and all the rest, in order to find a partner you're expected to a. find a girl, b. ask her out, c. pay a bundle for dinner, movies, etc., d. at least feign an interest in every minute detail of her very ordinary, boring life, laugh at her inane jokes, etc., etc., etc. until, if you're lucky, she'll find you worthy of sleeping with her.

Now ask yourself, which of these two you would think was special for going to bed with someone on the first date? Which would you think was a loser for doing the same?

AJ

Posted by: AJ on March 25, 2009 7:12 AM

I'm with your friend, Sam.
If a woman is interested in sex on the first date, I'm not interested in taking the relationship any further. Something about it just doesn't sit right with me...
Each to their own, I guess.

Posted by: Me on March 25, 2009 7:13 AM

Call it what you want.
Make it sound interesting and challenging.

It's still a fucking sex strike!

Just do it, enjoy it and get on with life....

Posted by: Far Ken R Soul on March 25, 2009 7:46 AM

"even if she's not that into him to begin with, she'll inevitably start to have strong sentimental feelings towards the bloke she's just bonked thanks to the surge of hormones racing in her blood and affecting her brain"

This happened for me in my last relationship. I didn't particularly fancy my friend or find him sexy or "boyfriend material". But after one drunken tryst and a few more shags the next day [and the best spooning I've ever known], I was hooked. I couldn't keep my hands off him. I think he found it rather strange and so did I. I was in rather weird territory and think that my lust for him overtook a lot of other things [like common sense - haha!]. And yes, I wrongly began viewing him as "mine". Lots learnt from that relationship indeed.

As far as sleeping with someone on the first date... DO WHATEVER YOU WANT GIRLS! There are no rules! And as such, there shouldn't be any rules about a guy needing to call you back the next day. If you have an honest and true connection with a guy, then sleeping with him isn't going to change that in a bad way. People are so hung up on sex and we're brainwashed to believe that there needs to be a powerplay involved. ["I'm not sleeping with him until the 4th date... because those are the rules!"] What a load of bulls---. If you don't want to sleep with someone because you want to get to know them better, then fine - that's the ONLY reason you need to give TO YOURSELF. Don't sprout around all this unnecessary drama in your head about it. It just feeds the beast of confusion.

In all my major relationships, I slept with them before we were even IN a relationship. And with any of the casual encounters, I knew what they were and what they stood for and walked away with my head held high after enjoying myself! No guilt!

So, it's really up to the individual and how you're feeling in the moment - and taking responsibility for your actions, even if you are drunk. Next relationship I have, I'm going to try things differently. Not because I value withholding sex "because of the rules" but purely because I want more of a build up. I want to see more sparks fly and yes, get to know the person better and for them to know me.

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 8:35 AM

30 days without sex. Is that really hard?

I'm pretty sure (especially on this blog) that only about 10% of the single readership actually has a challenge going for 30 days without sex. I'd say that 30 days and over is pretty much the norm unless you have an established FB.

I'm with whoever said that there's a different between not having casual sex and not having sex when you meet someone you like. Don't know who, can't be bothered to look, but they're spot on.

With someone you like, go for it. Even if the guy/gal is a player/fickle s--- and will let you go and drop off the planet, then in my opinion if it doesn't work out then at least you got some good lovin' out of it.

Played both the nice guy card and resisted having sex with someone, and played the get-in-their-knickers card too. Neither guarantees a relationship or even anything remotely serious, but at least you get some sex out of it if you opt for the latter.

I wish the oxytocin effect had happened a couple of times in my life, but it never did when it counted. And I can remember one particular time of acting the gentleman for two dates (because she was a MAJOR keeper) and it not getting past the third date. I kicked myself and swore i'd never turn it down again.

As someone probably only as wise as me once said "Every lay you turn down in one you'll never ever have"

Do I still sound bitter?

Posted by: Mr Roker on March 25, 2009 8:39 AM

God says "No sex before marriage"
FINK says "No marriage before sex"

Now pick your religion.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 8:44 AM

oxcytoxin isnt just a female hormone. men produce it too when they cum. so techincally the more you make a guy cum with you, the more he'll want to cuddle you.

kinda ruins the idea of 30days without sex now doesnt it.

There is a much better description of the effect of this (and other similar hormones) in 'The female Brain' by Dr. Louann Brizendine. Great read!

Posted by: Aims on March 25, 2009 8:44 AM

Just do it, enjoy it and get on with life... Posted by: Far Ken R Soul on March 25, 2009 7:46 AM

Word, Far Ken, WORD.

People are so hung up about the very thing that got us to be human in the first place! Without sex, we wouldn't be here. It feels so good to do it because we are designed to procreate. That's the first and foremost reason for sex to be as enjoyable as it is.

Man made restrictions and taboos on the subject [NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE! NO HOMOSEXUALITY! NO SEX FOR FUN! NO SEX ON THE FIRST DATE! NO! NO! NO!] are just boring and tiresome.

Get a grip people. We're in an age of being free to choose and if that means you choose not to have sex on the first date, FINE. But to judge other people when they do is completely ridiculous.

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 8:45 AM

Funnily enough I don't think I would Hit on or ask out a chick I didn't admire, she must have done something to pyke my interest in her, and i must have been in a situation where i had made some sort of contact with her through friends or through work because i don't hit on random chicks.

So having said that I am more than happy to "spend the night" on the first date, it makes sense that if your enjoying each others company and are naturally attracted to each other and accepted a date with a view to a relationship that you will experiment with the sexual side of your attraction.

Basically you would have to bne a pretty crap root to not get a phone call in the next few days after a date.

Posted by: 1st Base, I mean Date on March 25, 2009 8:50 AM

If this kind of behaviour keeps up, one day people will be having sex with each other after meeting randomly at a pub or club, instead of after a romantic date. Posted by: Miss Dynamite on March 25, 2009 6:18 AM

hehehe - you're funny! :)

Chris: WOW... just... WOW. Your views on women are just so sad. "Women who sleep with me on the first date are nothing but prostitutes and will be treated as such"...

Are you willing to spend more than $1000 on a first date honey?

I didn't think so.

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 8:52 AM

Like everything in live to wait or not to wait is a choice. The choice will have consequences, many of which can not be known until after the choice is made.

Whether it be a missed chance at happiness because you were unwilling to take a leap of faith, a disappointingly bland life of risk aversion, a great experience shared or a comfortable life of stability. The correct choice is up to the individual - their goals, dreams and ideals.

I personally think the idea that withholding sex works if you are upfront about your decision. If you have decided on day one that there will be no sex for at least a month - you need to be honest with the person so that they don't waste their time or your time if that's all they wanted (or if they feel its important for the sexual relationship to grow hand in hand with the emotional relationship). Chances of that happening are about the same as a guy admitting to a girl he has just met that he is only interested in a one night stand.

I'm cynical, if the "no casual sex month" (read: "sex strike"/"taking control"/"empowerment" whatever you want to call it) were well advertised and well supported, male patronage of the venues supporting the program would be substantially reduced. Many guys just wouldn't bother going out when there was no change of a "happy ending to the evening", and as such their mates (that may be interested in long term relationships) would refrain from going out as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I avoid casual sex at all costs!

It has emotionally devastating consequences for me.

I don't want to be used and tossed out by some a--hole.
....

Girls dont benefit from casual sex like men. They never get as much out of it as guys.

The best it can be is cold and empty, but most often, it is emotionally devastating.

Posted by: amy on March 24, 2009 9:49 PM

You were doing so well at the start of that post. Explaining how you felt about it, how it affected you. But then you jumped right back into old habits and assumed that because it has "emotionally devastating consequences" for you that "Girls dont benefit from casual sex" and that "The best it can be is cold and empty, but most often, it is emotionally devastating." is true for all women.

The reality is that it is not true For all women. Many enjoy casual sex, some do it because they feel compelled to to keep a guy (still their choice), others remain chaste until marriage. It's a choice that will affect different individuals differently.

This was a great chance for you to talk about your experience, your feelings your decision on your life and your philosophy rather than a general rant about boys being the root of all evil & women being the victims.

Posted by: Lostie on March 25, 2009 8:55 AM

am i the only woman who is missing the oxytocin gene? sex is physical for me, no attachment issues at all.

However, i have been celibate by choice for over 3 years , purely because i got very very bored with casual sex. These days i hardly ever meet anyone who i am attracted to so it's not difficult.

In my opinion , take a break if you think you need it, but otherwise just do what feels right for you and forget the rules.

Posted by: moet blue on March 25, 2009 8:59 AM

Posted by: moet blue on March 25, 2009 8:59 AM

nup, i've missed out on it too Moet.

Which is kinda funny because instead of men saying the stereotypical 'she's so clingy', i used to get told i was too cold.

which is ironic now that i've ended up with the biggest cuddler out there. but i guess thats where compromise comes into play.

Posted by: Aims on March 25, 2009 9:15 AM

To the hypocritical guys out there who will sleep with a girl on the first date but discard her as non relationship material, "good" girls don't want your used and abused fifth hand d---- either.

You attract what you put out. So when you do think you've finally scored someone who doesn't put out at the drop of a hat, you're probably wrong. She just held out to nail you into submission, but STILL screwed dozens of guys before. Quite comparable to what you preached but didn't practice.

What makes for a keeper (for you)? Are there some tangible qualities in an 'other' that you recognise? Or is it more abstract and undefinable? How do you know?

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 9:21 AM

Noting all of the above - don't forget that there is a certain amount of quality in quantity.

Seriously, after 30 years in the game I can honestly say that it all depends on the person you are dating. I just made it a rule not to sleep with anyone I found to be annoying no matter what they looked like. There is an old saying that behind every super model is a man who is sick of their c---. If it takes weeks or hours it depends on the person.

Posted by: Tiger S on March 25, 2009 9:23 AM

Get a grip people. We're in an age of being free to choose and if that means you choose not to have sex on the first date, FINE. But to judge other people when they do is completely ridiculous.

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 8:45 AM

Agreed, and you infantile guys - it's not ok to judge women for the very thing that you are doing yourselves. Are we really back to the point of women as s---- and men as studs? Grow up

Posted by: optimiss on March 25, 2009 9:23 AM

If women are anything like the girls at the 3 Weeds Rozelle Wednesday night Trivia, it will be really hard to maintain the Challenge. Especially if it's that table of 6 hot 30somethings at the bench by the window.

Posted by: Louie on March 25, 2009 9:25 AM

I really don't think it's all that complicated.

I slept with my now boyfriend on the first date and it didn't lead to anything negative.

The only thing it did lead to is two people having copious amounts of amazing sex earlier than we would have if I had have waited. I'm glad I didn't.

If he did end up being old fashioned enough to judge me on us both making that choice he wouldn't be someone I'd want to be with any way. It's just sex after all.

No sex strike for me.

Posted by: Lula L on March 25, 2009 9:27 AM

That was not the 'c' word in my previous post but a word meaning 'stuff' that begins with 'c' and rhymes with 'rap'.

Posted by: Tiger S on March 25, 2009 9:29 AM

Personal Reminder:

If I date any female bloggers I wouldn't expect a phone call for atleast 30 days.

Unless Caperz Gives it up, then I will call, text, send flowers, hell i'll even write thank you in the sky ;)

Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 9:32 AM

Which is kinda funny because instead of men saying the stereotypical 'she's so clingy', i used to get told i was too cold

Aims on March 25, 2009 9:15 AM

Coming from a generation of divorced parents some of us were brought up with only a single mother and simply enjoy affection.

Posted by: Somebodies Kid on March 25, 2009 9:38 AM

Posted by: Aims on March 25, 2009 9:15 AM

yes i seem to attract the emotional romantic guys too! i often feel like i am emotionaly the man in the relationship!

I would just like to meet a guy i am physically attracted to and who thinks like i do! Impossible it seems!

Posted by: moet blue on March 25, 2009 9:38 AM

Will you break the 30 day challenge if you masturbate?

oh yeah, 9's

Posted by: critter on March 25, 2009 9:41 AM

What makes for a keeper (for you)? Are there some tangible qualities in an 'other' that you recognise? Or is it more abstract and undefinable? How do you know?

I'll assume you're hoping guys who'll respond seriously, rather than with the superficial, sexist stereotypical qualities they find attractive enough in women to want to "keep"...

For me, it's always been the combining of a woman's physical bearing - i.e. how she stands and presents herself; with the tone and timbre of her voice and laugh as well as her ability to show with words and body stance and subtle gesture, that she's feeling for me like I'm feeling for her.

Summed up best as: A "keeper" for me is a woman with "Class" who lets you know with every glimpse you have of her that she's your one and only piece of arse. :{

If I was Richie Benaud, a "keeper" for me would be a woman who loved wearing gloves... She'd have to be able to take his wide balls behind his off stump. A cricketers' dream come true! :]

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 9:45 AM

You attract what you put out. So when you do think you've finally scored someone who doesn't put out at the drop of a hat, you're probably wrong. She just held out to nail you into submission, but STILL screwed dozens of guys before. Quite comparable to what you preached but didn't practice.

Posted by: Hate hypocrites on March 25, 2009 9:15 AM

Well said, and then they will use sex as a bargaining tool for the rest of your miserable relationships - its known as just desserts

Posted by: optimiss on March 25, 2009 9:47 AM

Manning, your post was actually really helpful...

Thanks!! And good luck :)

Posted by: L on March 25, 2009 9:48 AM

Have a think about it, what sort of girl would sleep with someone she has just met?

It is of course different if they have a prior relationship i.e. work, social etc But any woman who randomly picks up a dude and sleeps with him that night is just trash. Good fun mind you, but still trash that you wouldn't want anything long term with.

I'd expect a longer term prospect to have a little more self control than that.

Posted by: James on March 25, 2009 9:52 AM

What exactly is the challenge here? Go 30 days sans casual sex? Go 30 days with no sex full stop? Men or women? Either way, easy peasy. I only know a couple of people that would fail the challenge, and that's not including david duchovny.

Most of the time I think you already know whether you want further contact with someone before you get in the sack with them, first date or not. For some people, sex is everything since if the sex isn't what they want they are convinced the relationship isn't worth the condom they used.

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 9:57 AM

Each to their own, but one thing is for certain:
- Reputations are like hard thing to maintain.
- The smaller the community you live in, the more important this is.
- If you live in a big city, there is more than sufficient gals that will do the casual sex on a first date etc.
- If a gal in a city wants a good guy, be more rational than emotional.

======
Whe it comes to casual sex everyone is different. I find sex is a great bonding activity between friends and I never have any problem treating it as such.
* Posted by: Mmouse on March 24, 2009 9:43 PM

Totally agree there.

Posted by: TMontana on March 25, 2009 9:59 AM

Caperz that is the point. If a chick just wants sex call a bordello and get $1000 out of it. Much better offer than dinner and a taxi. You know men would do it if we could.

Posted by: Chris on March 25, 2009 10:02 AM

Agreed, and you infantile guys - it's not ok to judge women for the very thing that you are doing yourselves. Are we really back to the point of women as s---- and men as studs? Grow up

* Posted by: optimiss on March 25, 2009 9:23 AM

I am assuming that you mean this in respect of settling down rather than more social context. Simply because most guys I know don't care if a girl has 5 conquests or 500 conquests in a social context, its other girls that care about that. In terms of settling down...

There are plenty of people out there that don't want to marry people that have had the same life experiences as them be it a track record of sex on the first date, a drug habits, messy family life, criminal record, whatever.

Is it really judgmental to say: I don't want to be with someone that has made the same mistakes that I have all of my life, I would rather a partner that is my counter balance that holds my wild tendencies in check?
Isn't that what a hypothetical guy is saying when he wants leave the wild life behind and settle down with someone that doesn't put out on the first date?

Personally, as a younger guy I had huge issues with the idea of being in a relationship with a girl that had ever had sex with another guy. I didn't dislike those people or draw away from them, tell them or even feel that they were doing the wrong thing or anything like that, I just couldn't think of them as potential partners. As I think back, I feel that that was completely judgmental despite the fact that it didn't worry me that that was what they wanted from their life (but I suppose that is hardly hypocritical as I advocate waiting until marriage & the only person I have ever had sex with [or even kissed for that matter] is Mrs Lostie).

Posted by: Lostie on March 25, 2009 10:02 AM

Posted by: Louie on March 25, 2009 9:25 AM

mate, there's loads of hot women in sydney. as much as i would like to try 'em all out, i really just want one to share life's adventures with.

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 10:05 AM

my girl made me wait about 6 weeks

it helped fuel the fire

girls i have slept with on the first date i certainly dont view as sluts (cmon its 2009) but something in the magic does get lost a little

suspense is great i was like a red hot poker by the end of that 6 weeks

and our sex life is ridculously good these days (bout 10 months on)

:)

Posted by: toby on March 25, 2009 10:05 AM

Ha! I'm WAY ahead of the curve! I've not had sex in any fashion for 28 months now. I certainly never thought I would be able to crow about that *lol*

Seriously though, I don't sleep with a guy on the first date. The one and only time I did, when I was in my early 20s, it turned into a hot torrid passionate love affair that lasted 4 glorious months. Then he went back to his girlfriend and I never saw him again. I was heartbroken for about a year, but it taught me a valuable lesson. Always be true to yourself, no matter what. Since then I've stuck to my moral guns and haven't wavered since.

I'd always wondered why I found myself emotionally attached so quickly to any guy I've slept with. Now I know it's oxytocin's fault, I feel much better. At least I know I'm not desperate and clingy like I feared I might be.

Posted by: Killer Bees on March 25, 2009 10:06 AM

Wait a second -- all the females you quote are talking about casual sex, and Daniel is talking about dating...

Posted by: JEQP on March 25, 2009 10:07 AM

if she's a keeper, no way i'd treat her with disrespect. you'll find most guys to be like this.
Posted by: r0y on March 24, 2009 7:07 PM

Talk for yourself mate, not for the rest of us.

Posted by: JEQP on March 25, 2009 10:10 AM

Unless Caperz Gives it up, then I will call, text, send flowers, hell i'll even write thank you in the sky ;) Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 9:32 AM

*blushes and waves "hi" affectionately*

Thanks "someone" - whoever you are! :)

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 10:27 AM

The term 'casual' sex makes me think of dress codes, and two people turning up in shorts and thongs.

How about 'Lounge-suit' sex?

...'formal' sex?

.....'Black tie' sex? (oooh, that sounds quite good actually).

Back to reality, to me there are two types of casual sex.

Sad Casual Sex: Participants are drunk, not thinking, and only mildly attracted to each other. 45 minutes of clumsy vodka-fuelled fumbling, a killer hangover and an awkward coversation the next day... rinse and repeat. Avoid at all costs unless you are under the age of 22.

Happy Casual Sex: An unavoidable, unquestionable, magnetic 'mind and body' chemistry which - even if it is just for one night - will always be fondly remembered & highly regarded by both.

x

Posted by: Rosie on March 25, 2009 10:28 AM

What makes for a keeper (for you)? Are there some tangible qualities in an 'other' that you recognise? Or is it more abstract and undefinable? How do you know?

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 9:21 AM

The million dollar question! I can't give a precise answer.

It's a combination (for me) of trustworthiness (numero uno priority and the hardest to tell), mutual attraction, independance, and the ability to spend hours in their company without getting bored or struggling.

Similar sense of humour and a cynical understanding of the way the world and other people work (which in my case go hand in hand!!)

And for it to work between us, they also need to not have these stupid "dating rulez" or play the game, which simply means they know what they want.

Unfortunately for me, most of the handful of girls i've met that meet the earlier criteria usually fall down, as "knowing what they want" doesn't include "me". Dammit!

I must also note, that not a single australian girl i've met has come close. (Mental note: must get out of Sydney sometime)

Posted by: Mr Roker on March 25, 2009 10:28 AM

That was not the 'c' word in my previous post but a word meaning 'stuff' that begins with 'c' and rhymes with 'rap'.

So you're meaning the abbreviation that's derived from the less commonly used root word "cr-pulence"... :{

We used to use the abbreviated form to describe our physical state after over imbibing - which is nothing like the more modern connotation of excremental that the word is associated with in the minds of many, including the censors of words proscribed by our US Christian Right led masters.

If only I could feel gay about how American morality and values are infecting the use of the English language in every facet, and the ensuing censorship of "English" words on the internet by those who acquiesce to America's Christian Right.

Happiness isn't something that I'm actually feeling though when I watch freedom going down the gurgler...

Are you trying to make it hard for me to moderate?! :-) Moderator. xx

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 10:32 AM

mate, there's loads of hot women in sydney.

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 10:05 AM

I wholeheartedly agree with you Link-age.

Unfortunately, in my experience 95% of them are either have extremely warped life values, are untrustworthy, or are just plain dumb.

I'd love to have that percentage decrease, but it's been a while and I'm losing hope. Somehow I always gravitate towards English and European chicks. Probably because they banter rather than screech and/or do the bitchy "I'm too good for you" act.

A big problem i find, is that they love the going out "scene to be seen" thang.

Posted by: Mr Roker on March 25, 2009 10:41 AM

I don't get the amount of comments about 'holding off' to build anticipation and sparks. If you haven't already got that in your general non-sexual interactions with a person, then imposing a timeline and waiting for sex isn't going to miraculously bring it. When you get around to it, it might be ok - it might even seem more than ok because, basically, you're frustrated! But waiting for the sake of waiting - ludicrous.

Posted by: CarltonJenny on March 25, 2009 10:51 AM

All you guys who make value judgements about women's sexuality
and seek out women who ration out sex after a 'suitable' number of dates, will probably be the same ones complaining about wives who never want to have sex with them a few years after marriage - see Sam de Brito's blog today.

Posted by: Happily married on March 24, 2009 10:08 PM

-It's all summed up nicely here. Well said, Happily married woman. Who said we never get what we want? We almost always do, thats why you should be careful what you wish for!

If this kind of behaviour keeps up, one day people will be having sex with each other after meeting randomly at a pub or club, instead of after a romantic date.

Posted by: Miss Dynamite on March 25, 2009 6:18 AM

It's as if you're saying it isn't the case now? Take a closer look...

Posted by: Scurvy Dog on March 25, 2009 10:52 AM

Sex on 1st date? Never, mind you when I'm out smashed on whatever and I meet a guy who is just OMG, we click like we have known eachother for ages, yes I would love to go home with him. But I still don't. Just can't do it.

Posted by: CJ on March 25, 2009 10:52 AM

Just goes to show what i always though
All women are liars , what ever they tell you about their sexual experiences just double it or triple it.
They lie about everything and then blame the man for the way they feel.
personally in this modern world I believe you wreap what you sow and for women that means a downgrading in thier role as the fairer sex, now they have become nothing more than a sexual toy for men created by themselves and their own lack of really understanding the truth about real men.

Posted by: johno on March 25, 2009 10:52 AM

I did wait about 30 days with the last guy I was seeing - and although I must admit to having done the deed on the first date a couple of times it was hardly a regular occurrence! - and I agree that it does make you feel better about yourself, and about the guy if he's not putting the moves on every 5 minutes.

Unfortunately he just wan't a nice guy in the end and after over a month of dating (and having done the deed), he suddenly just stopped calling. Which I think is just rude, and no one can convice me that by the age of 34 its not obvious to everyone that after a certain period of time people deserve a phone call telling them they're not interested. He ended up calling nearly 3 months later to apologise, and that really is only because one of his best friends is marrying my brother on Friday. And before anyone can comment on my sexual prowess or lack thereof, believe me the deed wasn't long enough for him to know if I was rubbish in bed or not ;)

I do agree with waiting. My rushing into things days were left behind with my very early twenties. the disappointment of never hearing from the guy again is so much less if you haven't been physically involved.

Posted by: Nic on March 25, 2009 10:55 AM

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 10:32 AM

did you know that the latin word for hangover is cr-pula?

Posted by: Rosie on March 25, 2009 10:28 AM
that's got me wondering about FWB sex- i think we need a graph or a spreadsheet here!

and on topic - never sleep with anyone you are serious about until you at least know their last name!

Posted by: corgette on March 25, 2009 10:57 AM

"there are unfortunately some grave emotional consequences ... "

Who cares about emotionally consequences? I'd be waaay more concerned with the physical ones. Herpes does NOT sound fun (and thats probably one of the least serious things you can catch).

Casual sex with someone you know is one thing, but how anyone can have sex with a total stranger that they've know for less than 24 hours in beyond me

Posted by: Rayne on March 25, 2009 11:00 AM

Personally i've never had sex on a first date, was offered many times in my young days but wasn't interested.
there needs to be a physical and emotional attraction for good sex, and yes i'm a guy.

Posted by: Victorious Painter on March 25, 2009 11:03 AM

Catherine on March 24, 2009 11:19 PM

Catherine, I agree with your post, very well written. What you say is spot on.

I am going to hold out on sex untill a guy proves that he really cares about me. It's so difficult when guys lie and manipulate but I see through it now. Having sex on the 3rd, 4th or 5th date is way too early if you are looking for a committed romantic relationship because there is a good chance he'll never call again.

Easy come, easy go - that's the way guys see women - like a piece of meat, a disposable sex object. It's a shame and it's difficult for women to comprehend, but it's true.

You have to wait at least 6 weeks before sleeping with a guy, otherwise you can't expect to get a call back...

Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:04 AM

"Posted by: qualityoverquantity on March 24, 2009 7:33 PM
Going back to the subject... if a woman is single and is feeling horny or sexually attracted to someone... go for it. Who are we to tell them what's right and what's wrong?"

Yes...let us never tell the 'sacred woman' what is right and what is wrong...if she's horny...let her do as she pleases..;-)

Here is what an 'empowered feminist woman' looks like...though I do have my own doubts about her choice of casual sex partners...LOL!! But hey, who am I to say this is in any way 'wrong'...that would be being 'judgemental' and that is very non-PC now.

But waiting for the sake of waiting - ludicrous. Posted by: CarltonJenny on March 25, 2009 10:51 AM

Ever heard of delayed gratification? Just because I'd like to wait, doesn't mean I'm waiting for more of a connection or that the sparks aren't already there. It just means that I'd like to see whether or not we could build it up so that the first time was something special and earth moving for the both of us.

And saying that I'd like to wait doesn't mean I'd necessarily be able to! haha! I'm only human! [go with the flow and all of that]

If the sparks aren't there from the beginning, I wouldn't go on a date with a guy in the first place.

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 11:19 AM

Christ, kids, STOP ANALYSING EVERY DAMN THING PEOPLE DO otherwise you're either going to go completely crazy, or end up taking a trip to the cemetery earlier than you planned.

This is your life and it's getting shorter every day. Just do what you want to do and be happy.

Posted by: Sane on March 25, 2009 11:24 AM

Posted by: DD on March 24, 2009 10:32 PM

Fine by me.

If you think that's aggressive I bet you're one of those meek passive-aggressive types too afraid to say what you actually think and demand what you really want but want someone to read your mind and pick up on your "cues"

Even when I'm in a good mood I can make Spartan soldiers cower in fear!

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 8:44 AM

All hail FINK!

Posted by: moet blue on March 25, 2009 8:59 AM

I think you got some very speshal moet genes ;-)

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 9:45 AM

"superficial, sexist stereotypical qualities"

Nice to see you've judged someone else's standards and deemed them not worthy . . .

Posted by: Bender on March 25, 2009 11:26 AM

Posted by: Brian on March 24, 2009 7:39 PM

Damn straight.
Why are guys still insisting that their potential wives be virgins?

Apart from the fact that they won't be able to compare their lack lustre performance to any of their previous partners.

Years ago, on I think it was the Springer show, he had a whole show devoted to guys who sleep around but want virgins for wives.
This one guy's recently-made-former fiance was on the show with him. She was a virgin, she wanted to be a virgin until she was married. But he pressured and pressured her until she finally agreed to sleep with him. Then he dumped her. Why? Because she obviously couldn't keep her legs together before she was married and was therefore a slut.

All the a-holes out there create this situation and then complain about it.

If a girl doesn't want to fk you within 3 hours of meeting you, then leave her the hell alone and find a girl who will. Oh, and turning you down doesn't make us a slut. So quit with the moronic insults too. And the stalking and the threats of violence. It won't suddently make us want to shag you either.

Quit the acting, don't lay on the sob story, the puppy dog face, the guilt trips, or the criticisms, just tell her you only want to "have fun" right from the start, and surely enough you will find a girl who also just wants a shag.

There are plenty who used to post on here. Surely you can hook up with one of them, if they still post, or you figure out what their new aliases are.

Posted by: CBD Sonja on March 25, 2009 11:28 AM

Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:04 AM

To be as bitter as you seem, this must have happened to you lots Amy.

And if you can't tell by four dates after all this experience you have being cast out, then you have something wrong with your character judgement.

Something tells me you are attracted to cads. And false charm is pretty easy to spot or call out.

I think it was Albert Einstein that said "doing something identically a million times and expecting a different result is madness."

I would suggest you give your usual guys a miss and go for the Amy-judged "sad loosers" (sic) you've dismissed in previous posts.

Y'know, the ones you say are all that's left when you take away the Amy-judged "players"

Simply put Amy - the good-looking, suave, charming guys you meet quite clearly have the gifts to get multiple women, and will.

Look for something a bit deeper and you probably won't be as disappointed. There are guys who aren't cads, but from your posts, you dismiss them before they can say "Hi, Would you like a drink?"

P.S. Moderator, i think i'm missing a post. This is happening a lot to me these days!

Posted by: Mr Roker on March 25, 2009 11:29 AM

Men are very one track minded, it's all about sex, at least initially.

It is very hard for me to comprehend what men are all about. But when they say "I think you're very attractive", what they really mean is "I would like to sleep with you, as I would almost every girl on the planet". And if you did sleep with them, too early i.e. on one of the first few dates, he probably won't call you again. Just how it is. Mostly, women are the ones that want to bond with their partner, men want to root and shoot through.

Very sad and emotionally devastating for a lot of girls (me included), but when some women say they can enjoy casual sex, it's only because some women are more like men in their sexuality.

If a girl has higher than average levels of testosterone, then her sexuality and interest in casual sex will be shifted toward the male norm.

Testoserone inhibits bonding and increases interest in casual sex. Testosterone varies widely from one individual to the next, in both men and women, but men generally have at least 10 times more of it.

In contrast, estrogen fascilitates a desire for bonding and attatchment and creates the feelings of regret and hurt when a woman sleeps with someone unwilling to invest in a relationship.

The only girls I have ever known that have been interested in casual sex and enjoy it a lot, have higher than average levels of testosterone, and it shows in their physique and their appearance - they look more boyish/manly and less womanly - that's the testosterone playing it's part.

Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:38 AM

did you know that the latin word for hangover is cr-pula?

and on topic - never sleep with anyone you are serious about until you at least know their last name!

Yep... but, I didn't want to seem like a know-it-all by mentioning it. :{

BTW; is it really such a bad thing to sleep with someone who you know the first name of, if you know you'd like to find out what their surname is down the track?

Surely you don't want to know everything there is to know about someone before getting it on with them?!

Where's the "mystery" in that? :{

Mind you; if it's a work colleague you're getting it on with, and you don't know their surname - there'd be some cause for being a little upset: but, if the sex is excellent and more servings are required it'd surely be something one could come to grips with. :]

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 11:39 AM

I am going to hold out on sex untill a guy proves that he really cares about me.

Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:04 AM

Fair enough, if thats how you feel, but as it is a two way street; what do you do to prove yourself to him?

Posted by: Far Ken R Soul on March 25, 2009 11:42 AM

***I posted something along these lines earlier but it vanished. Here's the second attempt. Sorry if the first subsequently appears***

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Agreed, and you infantile guys - it's not ok to judge women for the very thing that you are doing yourselves. Are we really back to the point of women as s---- and men as studs? Grow up

* Posted by: optimiss on March 25, 2009 9:23 AM

Is it judgmental to want settle down with someone that hasn't made the same mistakes that you have whether it be random sexual encounters, drug problems, criminal history, family issues, whatever?

If a hypothetical guy doesn't want to settle down with someone that puts out on the first date, even though that is something that he has done in the past, I would hardly say that is hypocritical. It is simply a recognition of wanting to move on from that part of their life.

And if you are talking about a social context, I have never heard a male friend complain about a female friends promiscuity whether they had 5 or 500 conquests under their belt, women on the other hand....

So I don't think that it is fair to say that it is hypocritical. It is simply a recognition of what they want for the future, not a criticism of your past.

And before you complain that it is unfair to be judged on your behaviour and choices in life - on what basis can one determine if they want to be with some one if not by their past behaviour and choices, and their promises for the future?

Meanwhile, when I was a young guy I found that the idea of having a relationship with someone that had had sex with someone else made me incredibly uncomfortable. It wasn't that I disapproved of their choice or that I thought they had done the wrong thing, it was simply that I didn't want to be with a partner that had ever had sex with someone. Does that make me judgmental? Does it make any difference if I was waiting till marriage?

Admittedly, I advocate in favour waiting until marriage, and one partner for life, so it is hardly hypocritical [Mrs Lostie is the only woman I have ever even kissed, and it is my present intention that I shall go to the grave that way]. But as I look back still feel that it was judgmental (read:unfair) that I wouldn't consider dating people that had elected to have sex.

I admit that this is slightly different to the hypocrisy point but it leads into it.

If a hypothetical person has done something in their past, it does not mean that they should be bound to keep making that same decision/mistake. They should be in a position that they can still freely choose who they want to be with based on that other persons past. Of course, that other person is entitled to decide that they do not wish to settle down with the background of that hypothetical person, regardless of their own back ground.

Posted by: Lostie on March 25, 2009 11:45 AM

"superficial, sexist stereotypical qualities"

Nice to see you've judged someone else's standards and deemed them not worthy . . .

Ah... it's my mind that deems them less worthy than my male member does.

It still seems to find the "superficial, sexist stereotypical qualities" uplifting for some reason or other. :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 11:46 AM

There is almost no such thing as casual sex for women - most "modern" women won't admit it, but even a guy we think is ugly, annoying and stupid, once we shag him, we start feeling bonded. Casual sex is very destructive to women. I used to thing I was liberated by being promiscuous, but all I got was hurt - and and STD.

Posted by: missm on March 25, 2009 11:47 AM

Posted by: Somebodies Kid on March 25, 2009 9:38 AM

my parents are divorced also. a very acrimonious divorce.

i just prefer to do other things to make me happy within myself rather than rely on someone else's touch.

Posted by: Aims on March 25, 2009 11:47 AM

All I know about abstinence is that the only way to have safe sex is to abstain from drinking.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 11:53 AM

It all comes down to personal preference. If you want to sleep with someone after a first date, then GO FOR IT.

BUT

If you want a relationship DONT sleep with that person on the first date- it will lead to heartache .

Posted by: Muso on March 25, 2009 11:58 AM

Posted by: CarltonJenny on March 25, 2009 10:51 AM

good point, i know not many people want to admit to having bad sex, because shock horror it could be their fault..

but WHAT do you do, after having dated someone for a few months, developping strong feels, you finally sleep with them, and oh my god its absolutely awful... the relationship is pretty much doomed there anyway. especially if your partner happened to think it was great.

how do you hide the disapointment, how do you give up on someone just because after months of antcipation the sexis consistently bad.

so in some cases, it is really helpful to find this out before you get too involved.

Posted by: Aims on March 25, 2009 11:59 AM

Testoserone inhibits bonding and increases interest in casual sex. Testosterone varies widely from one individual to the next, in both men and women, but men generally have at least 10 times more of it.

In contrast, estrogen fascilitates a desire for bonding and attatchment and creates the feelings of regret and hurt when a woman sleeps with someone unwilling to invest in a relationship.

* Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:38 AM
------------------------

So amy... why aren't you having your levels of estrogen/testosterone adjusted as an example for the rest of us to follow?

It seems you could singlehandedly balance the imbalances in the rest of us by having some of your patent overabundance of estrogen extracted and given to estrogen starved individuals like me.

Not interested?

Don't be a woman of all words and no action... :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 11:59 AM

Has anyone ever noticed that women who enjoy casual sex have higher than average levels of testosterone for a female - and it shows in their physique/appearance?!

I was once reading a sex blog that a woman wrote about her many many casual encounters, and I thought... hmm this has to have been written by a man! No girl could enjoy being used and discarded so much!

But then I found a pic of the woman who wrote it on the internet and she looks just like a male to female transexual. She looks like a man! (no offense to her). But it explains her interest in casual sex!

Casual sex is not down to personal taste - ok it may be 5% personal taste. But it's mainly just biology, and specifically Testosterone. It is not hard to pick the females that have high testosterone - they have a boyish/manly physique, and on average, high cheekbones, big jaw etc.

Amy - I have a serious proposition for you - as you seem to have had no luck with men in the past, howsabout you hook up with the "one good man" left - PeterSMH? I can see a beautiful relationship....

Posted by: J9 on March 25, 2009 12:13 PM

anechka-jane on March 24, 2009 9:21 PM

I am back from Leprechaunia, though only temporarily! I am well, even though I look ghastly pale, and I am very happy.

Footballer... hmm you probably mean Matt Giteau and I'm sure he will always have a swoon factor for me, but I'm a bit preoccupied with my own cheeky Irish chappie and the moment so Mr Giteau has taken a definitive back seat.

How bout you? How's life? How's the Mr AJ?

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 12:20 PM

Posted by: Aims on March 25, 2009 11:59 AM

Tell them the truth, maybe? Communicate some ideas across to make him suck less in bed?

Or if it's physical, advise him to get some help? I see a lot of adverts for nasal remedies.

Keeping schtum and blaming him for your rising frustration without informing him is akin to pretending to have an orgasm and helps neither you nor him.

Personally, i can tell how bad a girl will be in bed from how selfish or self-absorbed they are in social situations. Scarily accurate to me, but I don't have the numbers to make this anything other than anecdotal.

Haha... from memory I think I can be the voice of unreason when I get on a rant as well, so don't expect me to be bringing any class to the joint.

Good to see you're still kicking around on here...

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 12:24 PM

Seeing as i haven't had casual sex or any sex for that matter for around 7 years, could do your 30 days standing on my head. I have to admit though i have much more respect for a women if she made me wait a while before doing the deed. There's something about if she gives it up easy for me maybe she will give it up easy for someone else??

It's difficult, isn't it? :)... I too have been trying to define what my version/idea of a 'keeper' is [I actually can't though, even though I married him! :P].

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer my Qs... good luck finding your classy, cricket loving, looks at you the right way, smokin' hot* Keeper SteveC. And best wishes finding your trustworthy, non precocious, Keeper who knows they want you Mr Rocker :).

*[Bender’s right about that ;)]

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 12:28 PM

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 12:06 PM

friend with benefits

fb/fwb- whatever

further thoughts...
personally i think you have to make it very clear that you either are or are not interested in a one night stand

or if i just wanted a one nighter then i probably wound;t say anything
if i wanted more than a one nighter then i would make sure i knew how the other person felt about that before i slept with them.

you can't sleep your way into a relationship or use sex in order to wake up in an instant relationship

Posted by: corgette on March 25, 2009 12:30 PM

Oh, i'm feeding the trolls today!

Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:38 AM

Can I see evidence of your Bio-chemistry Phd Amy, or is this "pop" biology? Have you published human behavioural papers that we're unaware of?

You seem to be a case of blaming all your woes's on men and their thoughts and now hormones, and taking no responsibilty for it. Now you're going one step further and pulling some false psuedo-science theory to back up your claims.

That's delusion, bordering on bat-sh*t crazy!

Of course, if you are a stupidly attractive, socially-experienced biology major, then you have my full apology. You'd just be merely bitter.

Posted by: Mr Roker on March 25, 2009 12:34 PM

Posted by: CBD Sonja on March 25, 2009 11:28 AM

I'm seeing a common theme towards the "violent/threatening guys when rejected" in your posts, Sonja.

This happen often? Is there a common pattern to these guys at all?

Posted by: Mr Roker on March 25, 2009 12:39 PM

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 12:20 PM

Oh my gosh! You caught a Leprechaun of your very own!!! How great {and very fitting ;)}. Yes, that Matt boy is the footballer I couldn't recall.

I am very pleased to hear that you are very happy! That's lovely Mel. How long are you here for?

I am great, thank you :). Life is good [especially for Mr AJ - very busy with work {no word of a recession for him yet!}] and I have a smile on my face most of the time. So no complaints from me :)

I can bet the guy has no sooner rolled off you that you start asking him "What are you thinking?" before charging in with what you're thinking.

No wonder he's not interested in a second shag.

In any case, it sounds like you don't have the emotional maturity and self-esteem to deal with casual sex without hating yourself afterwards. It's probably a good idea you're celibate. It's much cheaper than therapy.

Posted by: mint on March 25, 2009 12:40 PM

I'm always amused by people that try to rationalise base instincts as something unworthy in the attraction game.

It's surprising that humanity has made it this far given that that's been the case from the very beginning... :{

Not everyone feels the rising heart rate and heightened sensibilities that animal attraction bring as something to look forward to - maybe because the body's physical responses faced with animalistic attraction are so similar to the fear response we also feel as animals... who knows for absolute certain?!

When all is said and done: some people get "it" and others just never will.

Shouldn't mean those that do get "it", stop trying to help them that don't, because empathy and the desire to make the pleasures of life more accessible to those that reckon they don't have them is also a part of who we are as animals - on the most part. :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 12:40 PM

just prefer to do other things to make me happy within myself rather than rely on someone else's touch

Aims on March 25, 2009 11:47 AM

I don't mean sit there and pine for affection or get upset when i don't receive any, i like to show and receive affection alot and not just sexual manner, I really like to be touched ;)

Posted by: The Kid on March 25, 2009 12:42 PM

ANNOYED on March 25, 2009 12:11 PM

Estrogen does not make a woman more likely to take part in promiscuous sex. That is very INCORRECT.

It is testosterone that increases a person's desire for casual sex and sex with a variety of partners and it inhibits bonding.

Take a look at this site to see what constitutes a feminine/womanly female.

God what has happened to this generation. A pack of boring wowsers from the 1950's. Lighten up. Sex is fun if you don't overload it with moral and psychological BS.

I have been with the same man for 12 years and we had sex on the first date. So what. In the end, it actually was a meeting of the minds and intellect, a healthy shared sense of humour and a love of the absurd that got us over the line. And our physical relationship is just as good today.

I've also had boyfriends where we waited around and god, that was dull. They proved to be even duller. And the ones who were the moralizing "women are either sluts or wife material" usually proved to be unbearable both in bed and across the dinner table.

And i admit it there were men I had flings with because I purely wanted a bit of fun and companionship. There was no way I'd consider them as a life long partner.

I guess that everyone is different.

Posted by: zanna on March 25, 2009 12:45 PM

All I know about abstinence is that the only way to have safe sex is to abstain from drinking.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 12:59 PM

Posted by: corgette on March 25, 2009 12:30 PM

ah pardon my acronym ignorance! I don't think i could ever get that lucky to find a girl that just wants friendship and sex. sounds like a plan if both people agree on it but i can see complications if one person wants more and the other person doesn't. but if both people are in the same mind set it would work okay, I think. You get to do all the things that friends do, plus additional fun activities!

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 1:01 PM

It's fairly obvious that people are different, and act differently and we have different sex drives within genders.

But it looks clear that our emotional type affects our reactions according to our experiences and then shapes our views accordingly.

Amy speaks from her experiences as her emotional type did not match the men she was with. However, if say her experiences had been with say a Markus who more matched her type, her views may well have been positive.

Similarly your Steve C. who is all rationale and no emotional tap or understanding, his relationships would be disastrous with anyone else but a female with not much of an emotional tap either.

We all need different types, guys and girls. If we had no sensitive souls where would we get the art and music from..

If the Steve Cs and their genetic makeup become the Alpha male, my desire will be out the window.

Stop the Press. People without the feelings gene do not make the world a better place. Unfortunately they're desensitive and immune and although they don't really cause obvious harm they gradually erode our lives to one of pavements and walls.

Humans are like penguins - we're all the same; except for the one's that aren't.

One size fits all, as equally as one potion and solution works for everyone - except those nasty exceptions to the rule, who just won't lie down and die like good dignified people would or should do... :{

It's a good thing you're in a long term relationship with a guy, because if you're low on testosterone, you could suck any extra he's got out of him and into yourself to redress any imbalance - and he could correspondingly provide a similar servicing for you if his oestrogen levels need a little boost.

Just remember not to enjoy it - or else you'll have to beat yourself up over your enjoyment of such base behaviour, like the rest of us conforming individual clones do... :)

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 1:10 PM

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 12:39 PM

I'm not 100% sure how long I'll be back for but the rough plan is kinda 6-8 months at the moment... then it'll be back over yonder, hopefully for a few years to get properly settled with the man.

Good to hear Mr AJ is busy, it's the better way to be at the moment!

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 1:12 PM

You can thank me later ;)
Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 11:15 AM

Intriguing... you have my undivided attention... ;)

In reference to something Amy said about women looking more masculine who have higher sex drives... I don't know that to be true at all. I am a voluptuous woman and I love sex. End of story. It's all individual and you can never tell just by looking at someone how much nookie they're likely to get/require. Amy: you sound quite bitter as a person and you know what? I hope you rise above it, strive to believe that there are really great people out there who would LOVE to prove you wrong! The more you seek to prove your theory of life and love as "right", the more likely it is that you will keep attracting and exacerbating negative behaviour. Believe in good and it will come to you. And if it takes time, so be it. Have faith.

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 1:16 PM

"The only girls I have ever known that have been interested in casual sex and enjoy it a lot, have higher than average levels of testosterone, and it shows in their physique and their appearance - they look more boyish/manly and less womanly - that's the testosterone playing it's part."

* Posted by: amy on March 25, 2009 11:38 AM

I have, in the past, enjoyed 'casual sex' and there's nothing manly about the way I look, and I think a few on here could vouch for that.

I'm still not convinced you're not a blog character though... you combine all this high morality with words like 'root' in your posts. I'm suss!

I checked out the linked site, but couldn't find any National Socialist references, logos or "top website" links - apart from the mentions to the porn sites (which added a real sense of scientific relevance - like Not!) that the majority of the example images were culled from.

Strange, given the message I got was not that different from the message that Nazi research claimed to prove regarding links between physical traits and behavioural manifestations.

Hitler would be proud to see the work of his "scientists" being replicated in ways that make the message even more subversive than even he could have ever imagined.

Was nice seeing porn pics minimally adjusted so they could masquerade as serious scientific images though!

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 1:29 PM

Don't you think we should be valuing choice?

I really think that if you judge others for what they have done (or do) then that is an invite to be judged yourself. If someone is good enough to allow you to be intimate with them, then you should treat them with the respect they deserve. Its just courtesy, and that should be the minimum standard of behaviuor, whether its the first date or the 50th.

However, in my experience, I have found that a little abstinence in the beginning has its rewards, just don't make an issue out of it.

Posted by: Tiger S on March 25, 2009 1:34 PM

Happy Casual Sex: An unavoidable, unquestionable, magnetic 'mind and body' chemistry which - even if it is just for one night - will always be fondly remembered & highly regarded by both.

x

Posted by: Rosie on March 25, 2009 10:28 AM

Sign me up Rosie. Also demonstrates the state of copulating on the first formal meeting leading to further encounters which would be classed a relationship.

I think I'd rute on the first date..

Posted by: Scurvy Dog on March 25, 2009 1:36 PM

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 1:21 PM

She's not applying any morality per se. She's saying (rightly or wrongly) that much as a kick in the groin hurts men and women differently, so casual sex has a different effect on each.

I suspect it has more to do with the way people like to have sex than anything. If you like to be the driver, you're probably going to be cool with casual sex. If you like to be a passenger on the other hand, it's going to be a lot harder to find someone as trust and understanding become so much more crucial to your enjoyment.

Posted by: marsu on March 25, 2009 1:45 PM

I suspect that if you are seriously connecting with someone, there is not much you could do (or not do) that would influence their opinion of you and if you are only vaguely connecting or just playing, then these things would matter but in the long run it wouldn't matter as you are not meant to be...

I think I have said before, limit your concept of who your audience is- ie. you aren't going to win over everyone, so if you didn't win them over, they are not your target (so to speak...).

Posted by: tuibird on March 25, 2009 1:49 PM

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 1:12 PM

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 12:39 PM

Thanks for reminding me why this blog gets so boring.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 1:51 PM

Hmm..or is it a case of "my own business always bores me to death. I prefer other people's".

* Posted by: J9 on March 25, 2009 1:04 PM

ha that's so funny. This while blog is for people bored to death, and who can't mind their own business.

Sorry for that Finky. I got a bit excited. I'll stop being boringly friendly now :)

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 2:06 PM

If he has money and OK of course I have sex with him when he initiates! What a loser I'd be if I didn't.

Posted by: Alex on March 25, 2009 2:19 PM

Sex after marriage is the only acceptable form of proper relationship. There is very rare exceptions, who had sex at their first date (not saying bad at all) and made it at the end of having a proper meaningful relationship! Trying out so many girls and guys, i would rather suggest, considering taking up prostitution as a side profession and where you making money and having mind blowing shags! Life is not smooth as silk, most hallucinated people think it is and if you beleive not everyone is perfect and neither of you then stop blaming each other! Girls who shagged multiple blokes, doesnt matter first date or after a year, still havent found the right one and still keep shagging what does it say about her? Blokes we love sex, and we having sex in a non commital relationship and having multiple partners, makes us look charming, hot, bad boys!! Hey girls fall for bad boys lolz Thumbs Up :)

Posted by: Blue Train on March 25, 2009 2:21 PM

I am so tired of the sexist double standard and stereotype presented as social commentary on this blog. It undermines the intelligence of both blogger and contributor. It's eye-opening, at least, to realise people actually buy into this nonsense and interpret themselves and their relationships through it. We are humans and individuals, not just a one-dimensional gender stereotype, despite what Sam seems to believe.

Posted by: Al on March 25, 2009 2:22 PM

Great post Al! Well said.

Posted by: Blue eyes on March 25, 2009 2:26 PM

Link-age: x.

Speaking of the x, what about the simple but delicious act of 'just' kissing? Call me old-fashioned, but...

I don't go around locking lips with strangers at every available opportunity... but personally I find kissing (GOOD kissing) can be just as tantalising, revealing and sexy (if not more).

I'd much prefer an amazing kiss to ho-hum sex.

*eyes glaze over*... thinking back to last year when I was lucky enough to be on the receiving end of a particularly incredible kiss which literally made my knees go weak to the point where I needed to steady myself aganist a wall, my head was spinning, my body was on fire (not literally but it felt like it!)...

It was so innocent but I've never forgotten it.

Can we please bring this back into fashion again?!!

*X*

Posted by: Rosie on March 25, 2009 2:29 PM

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 1:51 PM

Haha... your comment, on the other hand, was much more interesting. Sorry, I'll go back to being all opinion and no person.

Posted by: zanna on March 25, 2009 12:45 PM

Bingo. Great post.

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 2:31 PM

Posted by: anechka on March 25, 2009 2:06 PM
Right on! Now I don't mind you getting a bit excited with melissakp but enough with the triviality already, ramp up your excitement with some good old sl-tly girl on girl action chat instead. That woman Amy sounds like she would like and need some of the action as well.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 2:34 PM

This topic is exactly the situation im in at the moment.

I saw him lastnight, and as ileft his apartment i decided that i cant do it anymore.

I was all fine for it being casual, but as time has gone by, i have found myself looking for more from him.
And im afraid to say, that he just isnt that into me.

so out with the old and in with the new i say.

Posted by: Julesy on March 25, 2009 2:37 PM

Its just courtesy, and that should be the minimum standard of behaviuor, whether its the first date or the 50th.

So would it be courteous to ask whether you're seeing anyone right now? :]

If courtesy is something you value that much, then it'd only be common courtesy on my part, to inform you that I find such a value in another - especially a woman, something I find hard to resist! :)

As a sign of my integrity and sense of honour in dealing with matters of courtesy, I shall avoid any temptation I may feel in correcting your spelling of the word "behaviour"... and I hope you take the above comment in the spirit of lightheartedness in which it's intended. :]

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 2:38 PM

Can we please bring this back into fashion again?!!

*X*

* Posted by: Rosie on March 25, 2009 2:29 PM

I agree entirely.

Now how does one get to kiss ones wife without her turning the other cheek?

Posted by: Lostie on March 25, 2009 2:39 PM

no sex b4 marriage is the only way true love can be found..
otherwise you are using the other person.. if that's what both ppl want to do then go for it..
although.. if you are not prepared to have a baby and a lifelong commitment with someone, you should not be having sex!
Women should be women, and not act like men.. and same the otherway.
When women act like men, we loose respect for them.

Trust the FINK to so eloquently put into words what so many may think, but never find a way to say... :{ :]

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 2:44 PM

People Please

Amy has obviously had some really bad experiences with men and as i see it used this blog to vent and now seems to be (i'm sure what we are doing) but it's not nice.

Amy I hope you can understand that people on these kinds of sites have all had a bad experience or two and find it easier to disagree with someone they have a different opinion too rather than see it from their point of view.

Not everyone will use you, but there are alot of people that will, keep your guard up.

Best of luck with whatever it is you are looking for.

Intriguing... you have my undivided attention... ;)

I am a voluptuous woman and I love sex.

Caperz on March 25, 2009 1:16 PM

We really should "do" lunch sometime ;)

Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 2:52 PM

Posted by: melissakp on March 25, 2009 2:31 PM
My comment like your opinion is worthless. You're a woman, so when I want your opinion I shall give it you.
However I'd like to leave you with one thought! unfortunately I am not sure you have anywhere to put it.

she plagiarises alot! - lifts entire paragraphs from websites. last few times i have tried to post this, i have been censored. lets see if it gets through this time. ( oh dear now i sound paranoid like someone else who cries 'censorship' alot)

Posted by: corgette on March 25, 2009 3:23 PM

Wrong.

Slept with a woman on the first date.

Married her.

7 years later still going.

Posted by: Smacky McTavish on March 25, 2009 3:23 PM

It's not just the x though if it were coming from someone else other than you it just wouldn't be the same!

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 3:16 PM

(_x_)

Just for you.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 3:24 PM

Now how does one get to kiss ones wife without her turning the other cheek?

Over time I think kissing runs the risk of becoming something you 'do to each other quickly' as you run out the door on your way to work. It's a shame but understandable when you're in a long-term relationship and all the pressures of daily life. I've always thought/hoped there's magic and mystery in kissing.

Obviously kissing essentials are of course fresh bresh, the removal of any major facial-hair situation such as Boonie-style moustache...and no massive slobbering.

Just to me, kissing bonuses are an intuitive approach (ie: quick/fun, slow/sexy, raw/dirty, tender/loving etc)...the slow-sexy build-up.... 'the tease' (not many men seem know this little manouvre but it's a really good one)...

I'm not speaking for all women but I personally love it if a guy plays with my hair or holds it back from my face when we kiss....

(I read somewhere that women have thousands of nerve endings in their hair follicles (?), hence why playing with our hair sends us a bit crazy)

I'm sure FINK will have a field-day with some of this post - so I acknowledge and salute you in advance, oh filthy one.

Happy x-ing Lostie.

xx

Posted by: Rosie on March 25, 2009 3:25 PM

Caperz on March 25, 2009 3:13 PM

I am pretty we have never met or i would have called, text, bought you flowers and wrote you something in the sky hehe ;)

Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 3:28 PM

When women act like men, we loose respect for them.

* Posted by: robin on March 25, 2009 2:43 PM

So - are you saying you have no respect for "loose" men?

Posted by: J9 on March 25, 2009 3:29 PM

So much "loose respect" on this blog... :)

Rosie- I am with you- fabulous knee-melting kissing is soooo hot!!! Last guy who was a FABULOUS kisser turned out to be a tad over-zealous however :(. So sad!

Like so many others, my 30 days is going on a year now, so all very hypothetical!

Posted by: tuibird on March 25, 2009 3:32 PM

Posted by: Bender on March 25, 2009 11:26 AM
Welcome to the...
Church of ScienceFINKtion.
And please only women need to appear on their knees before me.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 3:35 PM

Posted by: corgette on March 25, 2009 3:23 PM
and miss your captivating assumptions, I couldn't bring myself to do it.
Don't you FINK this would be an excellent time for you to become a missing person.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 3:44 PM

Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 3:28 PM

hehehe - all that for me? A girl you've never even met?!

Cliche questions for you but why not!? [and besides... they're fun!]

Gender? [assuming male]
Starsign?
Age?
Best night out this year so far?
Fave muso/band/singer?
Locale?

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 3:46 PM

so, how does this challenge work? we sign up, and have as much casual sex as possible for thirty days? at the end we write down the No. of people who say 'no'...

i'm in... who wants to get the ball rolling (so to speak)?

Posted by: the anvil drops on March 25, 2009 3:59 PM

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 3:24 PM

It looks like you have something stuck up your ars3.

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 4:01 PM

Welcome to the...
Church of ScienceFINKtion.
And please only women need to appear on their knees before me.
Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 3:35 PM

hehehehe - loves it!

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 4:03 PM

Caperz on March 25, 2009 3:46 PM

Gender? Boy

Starsign? Sexy

Age? early 30's

Best night out this year so far? NYE

Fave muso/band/singer? Foo Fighters

Locale? Sydney

Same Questions reversed except

Favorite Flower?

Favorite Food?

E-mail address?

These two are optional-

Real name?

and your

Phone Number?

Hehe ;)

Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 4:03 PM

aahhhh.... woke up this morning to the wonderful world of Amy.

I spoke too soon in my earlier post.

You have certainly done yourself proud. And to think that I doubted you.

I'm still curiously waiting for your reply to Far Ken's question though. Please tell us what you have to offer a genuine (farking patient!) guy?

"Fair enough, if thats how you feel, but as it is a two way street; what do you do to prove yourself to him?"

Posted by: Far Ken R Soul on March 25, 2009 11:42 AM

Posted by: qualityoverquantity on March 25, 2009 4:09 PM

Tuibird...

I have a solution for your long 30 days...

Are we on track for tonight?

mesmer

Posted by: mesmer on March 25, 2009 4:09 PM

The vast majority of people need rules to govern their lives, particularly in the most ungovernable situations which are also the ones where there is the most at stake. This is because humans are weak and afraid.

Who you sleep will eventually affect who you spend a significant proportion of your life with, if you are lucky, the rest of your life with a compatible love interest mutually enhancing each other's happiness.

The problem is that if you start off with different rule sets then one or other will be unsettled and uncomfortable and will run. In the past the rules were rarely spoken but were universally understood; now every aspect of human sexuality is openly discussed yet more and more people are confused.

Now, the rules do not apply to me due to the extraordinary quality of my insight into the human condition, they are merely guidelines, I tend to feel the same way about most rules and structures, (with the exception of certain absolutes), and quite often wind up in a degree of trouble (traffic offences, bits of legal nonsense, non-compliance, reckless something or other blah blah blah) but it is all secular law of the land stuff and hence irrelevant.

Anyway, for the rest of you non-Nietzschian supermen or women there are plenty of locations to find the rules:

So, if you all rebel against the strictures of society in exactly the same way then apparently you can have romantic and sexual happiness with the feeling that you have sold your soul –you all need to become sexual non-conformists, but in a way which structured and understood by all parties.

People are so annoying, as soon as you get want what you want you realise it is not what you need and become more dissatisfied than when you started.

Ta

D.

Posted by: Dion on March 25, 2009 4:16 PM

It looks like you have something stuck up your ars3.
Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 4:01 PM
Yep! your lips.

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 4:16 PM

Anyhow, what's wrong with a woman who's had more pricks than a secondhand dartboard?

Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 4:23 PM

If this kind of behaviour keeps up, one day people will be having sex with each other after meeting randomly at a pub or club, instead of after a romantic date.

Posted by: Miss Dynamite on March 25, 2009 6:18 AM

Holy s---, welcome to 2009! How was it back in '57?

BTW, what the hell is this "9's" thing that keeps popping up on various SMH blogs?

Posted by: rob__ on March 25, 2009 4:27 PM

It looks like you have something stuck up your ars3.
Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 4:01 PM

Yep! your lips.

* Posted by: FINK on March 25, 2009 4:16 PM
------------------------

You mean it's not someone's nose?! :{

Yeah... I guess if you were a senior Public Servant or a high ranking politician it'd be more likely to be a nose. :]

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 4:29 PM

Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 4:03 PM

Hilarious! :) hehehe

Gender? Female

Starsign? Sagittarius

Age? early 30's

Best night out this year so far? NYE/NY DAY

Fave muso/band/singer? k-os and roisin murphy - anything to do with Hed Kandi/MOS/dance/pop. All music really also includes elevator muzak... hehe

Favorite Food? Greek/Italian/Australiana [footy franks included]/anything really. The list of what I don't like is easier...

E-mail address? Is it possible for the moderator to swap these details privately...? MODERATOR are you there? Should I swear? D---! S---! hahaha

These two are optional-

Real name? Um... not on this blog.

and your

Phone Number? Again... not on this blog...

I've finished for the day, so must fly... it's been an interesting day, Mr Someone... :) Hope to read some more from you tomorrow.

Caperz:Yes, this blog is being moderated. Thus, you cannot swear! :-) I will let you know of your request and someone will get back to you by tomorrow! We do have control of what is published and whatnot - Moderator. xx

Posted by: Caperz on March 25, 2009 4:32 PM

Anyhow, what's wrong with a woman who's had more pricks than a secondhand dartboard?

sex on the first date has given me a 4 year relationship (so far).
Personally, i don't want to have anything to do with a man who thinks less of a woman for having sex on a first date, but then high-fives his mates when they score a hot one night stand.
That would make him a bit of a misogynist, and really, who wants to be dating a bloke who thinks that way?

Posted by: Maxie on March 25, 2009 7:18 PM

Oh come now, if you want to forgo all that is surplus to requirements for 30 days, why stop at just sex?

Why not give up the following for a month at a time, over the course of a year and see how you go then?

Some months would be easier than others - what informs us is our attitude to eliminating something that we have grown dependent on.

Try it sometime. There's more to be gained in this exercise than you may first appreciate.

Posted by: Moongirl on March 25, 2009 8:30 PM

All I have to say is "Good Luck" ....

Posted by: Juicymymy on March 25, 2009 9:10 PM

IF it's great sex and you click with the person it can definitely lead to a relationship.

My current relationship started with sex the night we met (shock horror!). We were just amazingly attracted to each other which is why it happened, woke up in the morning and talked all the next day. We've been in a great relationship for nearly 3 years now.
I think it's partly just luck though, could have woken up next to each other and completely regretted it.

Posted by: shocking behaviour on March 25, 2009 9:37 PM

"30-day no-casual sex challenge"?

Get married and you'll have 12 of those (+5 bonus days) every year.

EVERY freakin' year.........

(Just got the 9s too)

Posted by: CB on March 25, 2009 9:46 PM

Posted by: Lostie on March 25, 2009 2:39 PM

Reading these posts breaks my heart. You two are on a slippery slope there, and I think that you should seriously consider marriage conseling.

Coming from a guy who woke up too late.

Posted by: Markus on March 25, 2009 11:12 PM

Catherine on March 24, 2009 11:19 PM

And most of Amys posts...

I have to say I agree with Catherines sentiment. I understand -through experience- where shes coming from, and I am going on 4 years celibate (and only regretting it if I have a crush on a guy who I cant get, which is only about once a year.

For all the naysayers who think women like us are just bitter, please understand that Catherines post tells a story that a lot of women can relate to.

YES, some women dont bond when they have sex - they can have casual sex and really be absolutely fine with it. But a lot of women kid themselves that they can, and end up feeling used, empty and like a little part of them has changed for the worse. I experienced this - 3 times! (wanted to give myself a chance at getting over this whole bonding with sex thing. I had mistakenly - for me- bought into the whole idea of casual sex being empowering for women. I know with 100% certainty that it isn't- for me- and my feeling is that there are a helluva lot of women out there who feel the same way but won't admit it for fear of being labled prodes, or being thought of as uncool.

In the end, I had to recognise my own nature, that I was a person for whom sex would always be meaningful, and a bonding experience.

My experiences taught me to understand and respect who I am, and to raise my standards in terms of the behaviour I will tolerate from guys, and the sort of investment guys will have to make in me (personally, time, energy, emotionally-wise -NOT money) before I will consider sleeping with them. If there's no sacredness, no genuine, strong emotional bond between a guy and myself, then sex is never going to be on the cards. Unless you have that, it is impossible to trust a guys intentions. (and even then, not all guys will be faithful).

I say to the Samantha_jones-from-SATC women, I envy you, but I am not one of you. I have accepted myself for who I am. I do not look down on these women, or on the men who sleep with them becuase they require no investment (emotional), but I am simply not part of that world, nor part of that culture.

You, like Amy state certain expectations from men before you would consider having sex, yet both of you do not state anything about what you have to offer.

What do you have to offer?

(refer to my post to Amy at 11:42 AM - to which she has not responded, and most likley wont because women like this tend to want a relationship that is all about them....)

Posted by: Far Ken R Soul on March 26, 2009 7:50 AM

12. TV

Posted by: Moongirl on March 25, 2009 8:30 PM
I would give up half an hour of Home and Away for a blow job.

Posted by: FINK on March 26, 2009 8:35 AM

judging from that X, it looks more like someone tried to do you with a rusty concrete nail.

Posted by: Link-age on March 25, 2009 4:44 PM
Well that's what can happen to your lips Linky when you've had them around too many small studs.

Posted by: FINK on March 26, 2009 8:39 AM

Moderator: THANKS! :) Sorry for the swearing *hugs*

Let me know what needs to be done. I give permission for my email to be forwarded to "SOMEONE".

CAPERZ: Post your contact details to "Someone" as you would normally post any other post. Your post will not be published, I promise! I will look out for your post and pass this on to Sam who will then pass on your details. Best wishes!!! - Moderator. xx

Posted by: Caperz on March 26, 2009 8:42 AM

Posted by: Moongirl on March 25, 2009 8:30 PM

noooooooo! i can't give up TV! not Foxtel anyway! NEVER! the other stuff yes easy!

Posted by: moet blue on March 26, 2009 8:48 AM

The darts have a tendency to slip right on out of the board no matter how well embedded the tips might be.

No sticka ina da board - No a score! :[

Posted by: Steve C on March 25, 2009 4:34 PM
I can count on you as the only semi intelligent blogger to understand my reasoning behind that crucial question. Which begs a further question would women prefer 50 highly forgettable pin pricks or one highly memorable missile that leaves their six inch stilettos a metre apart for a week?

Posted by: FINK on March 26, 2009 8:48 AM

* Posted by: Markus on March 25, 2009 11:12 PM

I agree with you entirely.

But if ones partner does not see a problem, refuses to consider counselling, refuses to talk about the who area and generally says "get over it"-what choices do you have?

A small part of me wishes that I didn't have such a determined code of honour-that I could just walk away from the promise I made to be married to one person for life. But what I really want is for Mrs Lostie to be true to the promises that she made.

------------------

*Unless you have that, it is
*impossible to trust a guys
*intentions. (and even then, not
*all guys will be faithful).

So what you are saying is that it is really all about trust. You don't trust guys. That's understandable, there are plenty of guys out there that are not worthy of your trust. But Don't doubt for a minute that a guy that is seriously interested will feel like you don't trust him, will know that you don't think that he is special or different. And as such is just as likely to walk away after a week or 2 of being shown that you don't think he is worth it. Of course others may appreciate the challenge (it doesn't mean they will be loyal they just like the challenge).

It's a catch 22, a genuinely interested guy will be sent running if you demonstrate that you don't trust them (or think that they are only interested in one thing). You immediately begin by showing that you think the worst of them - in that case why would they stick around?

You are still talking about sex as a return on their "investment". It is still "trade". It still doesn't appear to be about trust and mutual respect, simply that they have invested enough that you are willing to put out. Do you really want a partner that considers the time they spend with you as an investment towards in getting laid? Or would you rather they did that things because you had shown them that they were special to you, and they feel that they wanted you to know that you were special to them?

Celibacy is all well and good, but unless you are completely up front about your motives it appears that you don't trust them. As soon as you do disclose the truth they know how many hours they have to put in to get laid. A fine line to walk.

*If there's no sacredness, no
*genuine, strong emotional bond
*between a guy and myself, then
*sex is never going to be on the
*cards. Unless you have that, it *is impossible to trust a guys
*intentions.

That bond could be formed or felt in a day. I knew from day 1 that I was going to marry Mrs Lostie - would you fight that feeling just because it didn't fit with your timeline? If so are you prepared for the damage that may be done if the feeling is there and you demonstrate your distrust for the guy?

I agree with you Markus. Lostie you obviously love Mrs L (judging from your posts) and that makes her a very lucky woman, but she obviously doesn't feel so lucky right now. I hope you two can change this - it can so suddenly be too late.

Posted by: optimiss on March 26, 2009 9:31 AM

Celibate until love enters my life on March 25, 2009 11:31 PM

Good luck with finding the right man.

I think many of the people on here who criticise women and say they are bitter for hating the casual sex culture or blame it on the women saying they "allow" it, are actually the ones who have never had casual sex or have had limited casual sex, or they are men, or women who have higher than normal testosterone levels (which promotes casual sex and inhibits bonding).

Many people, (some women included) do not understand how damaging casual sex can be! Even teachers and uni lecturers don't understand much of the time....

By the way, I am really sick of people saying that it is the girls fault if they are upset by casual sex, because they "allowed" it. That is a disgusting attitude and it will not be tolerated!

I am also really sick of people saying, if you don't like casual sex then don't do it. Get a life idiots!

Don't you understand that I don't want to, my problem is that many other women do participate in hooking up and it perpetuates the hookup culture and discourages dating and romance. But in general these girls are still getting less out of it than the guys, they are probably acting under a false sense of "liberation". There are way too much misleading messages about casual sex that are sent out to young people.

The hookup culture needs to be stamped out!

Posted by: amy on March 26, 2009 9:42 AM

"Posted by: Someone on March 25, 2009 2:52 PM
Amy has obviously had some really bad experiences with men and as i see it used this blog to vent and now seems to be...but it's not nice."

Someone, how patronising. Why is it what Amy writes is 'venting' and not 'her opinion to which she is entitled'? It has to be 'venting'? Who are you to judge her? How arrogant. You people who say you are so 'non-judgemental' are the first to cast aspersions upon any person who disagrees with you.

What Amy is pointing to is extremely important. They are the same issues I am pointing to in reverse. The inability of people to maintain long term relationships. She is repeating her experiences. I welcome what Amy says. As well as the other women who have been very vocal about their feelings that it seems so difficult to have a decent relationship today. ('Belinda' et al.) Amy and others are a warning to all women that this is what is coming your way if you do not stop waging your "war of the sexes" and endlessly spewing hatred out against men or supporting women who do.

"Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write."
Voltaire, letter to M. le Riche, February 6, 1770
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)

I think it is high time people here started showing a bit of maturity and presented argument rather than the endless stream of put downs and shaming tactics intended to promote group think. How about a few facts for a start?

Posted by: petersmh on March 26, 2009 10:30 AM

I think it is high time people here started showing a bit of maturity and presented argument rather than the endless stream of put downs and shaming tactics intended to promote group think. How about a few facts for a start?
Posted by: petersmh on March 26, 2009 10:30 AM

OK Peter, you first!

Posted by: Weeze on March 26, 2009 1:57 PM

Posted by: amy on March 26, 2009 9:42 AM

I'm beginning to side with MelissaKp on this one - I think you may just be a wind up. But I'll give it one more go, even though you've chosen to ignore all posts made to you so far...

Amy - I'm not an idiot, nor do I need to "get a life". I have one, a rich, fulfilling life with a beautiful partner. All this, despite the fact I think that sex is not a bargaining chip that you need to "withhold" till you meet someone worthy. Either I'm incredibly lucky, or it really is simply about meeting someone you trust and respect, and they do the same for you.

Yep, I had my share of partners with no idea how to be part of a relationship..but they all taught me more about people, and more about what I wanted..and the issues with my own personality that needed change.

There are good people out there..you just have to find them, if you are perpetually meeting the wrong ones, then maybe you are looking in the wrong places or choosing the wrong type of people, but I doubt it has anything to do with the "hookup" culture.

If you don't like the culture, find another tribe.

Posted by: petersmh on March 26, 2009 10:30 AM

I'm sure you have all the facts at your fingertips just itching to be posted..go on, you know you wanna.

I'm absolutely gobsmacked that you can accuse others of "put downs and shaming", immtaurity.. when you rarely manage one post without some rant about all women being liars etc etc. I have no idea which world you live in, but it must involve some fancy pills.

Posted by: J9 on March 26, 2009 2:07 PM

Don't you understand that I don't want to, my problem is that many other women do participate in hooking up and it perpetuates the hookup culture and discourages dating and romance. But in general these girls are still getting less out of it than the guys, they are probably acting under a false sense of "liberation". There are way too much misleading messages about casual sex that are sent out to young people.

The hookup culture needs to be stamped out!

* Posted by: amy on March 26, 2009 9:42 AM

Are you saying that we should take away women's right to say yes? Take away their freedoms? Prohibit casual sex? make people live to some "Play-by-play" guide prepared by the Government?

I'm neither for nor against casual sex. It's not what I want in my life, but I respect the right of others to live the life they wish. if they wish to share experiences with other consenting adults, that's their choice.

At the same time I expect adults to live with the consequences of their choices. You are advocating a world in which there is no responsibility or accountability- a world free of choices and opportunities. And existence that is limited to following the steps in a pre-programmed life.

I agree that the casual sex culture made it harder for me to find the person I wanted to share my life with. But I do not blame that culture, I respect the choices of others. I appreciate that my world view is no more valid than theirs and, as such, my views should not be forced upon them.

Having said that I want to live in a world of choice and free-will, not a protectionist state in which some people determine the things that I can consent to participate in with other consenting adults. I agree that one should be protected from being FORCED to participate in something against their will, but should have the freedom to opt in.

We should not protect people from their own decisions and more than we should protect people who elect to gamble away their life's savings, those who elect to gamble on the stock market, those who drink themselves to death, jump from a perfectly good plane, BASE jump or cross the road when unsafe to do so (the last is perhaps a grey area for the risk it poses to others).

Casual sex is not something that is forced upon any one. It is a choice that people have. Both men and women participate, many go on to have happy lives, others are scarred by the experience (both genders). The point is that each party should be left to live with the consequences of their choices.

I appreciate that you may advocate that people are doing unknown harm to themselves. I agree. That is a risk they take, that is life. Just as they take the risk of an unwanted pregnancy, risk of an STD and the risk that the sexual activity could cause a heart attack.

We as a society have elected to allow people to take risks with their own lives (see smoking for example), women and men should have that same freedom when choosing whether to have sex with another consenting individual.

As for your point "I am also really sick of people saying, if you don't like casual sex then don't do it. Get a life idiots!" I am completely disappointed - you had the opportunity to stand up and say something constructive but you elected to lower yourself to abusive, pointless, insult. Perhaps you should have considered responding to the comments with debate rather than needlessly aggravating those who have different views.

Posted by: Lostie on March 26, 2009 2:07 PM

A date is about romance. Sex is sex and although all you people in your 20's think it's the holy grail, you are wrong. Your hormones are talking but you do have a mind... listen to it. If you have a very thick skin and are wanting sex after a great time on the first date fine ... but IT DOESN'T MEAN A THING...you don't KNOW each other!!

Posted by: jane doe on March 24, 2009 7:29 PM

romance is just a way of getting s3x, and is driven by womens hormones as much as sex is driven by mens (women need a reason to shag, men just need a place). After many years with my partner, I am still getting to know her. If you wait until you truly know someone before you shag them, it will be a looooooong wait.

Posted by: Bollo on March 26, 2009 2:32 PM

Amy,

Honestly, I feel for the hurt you've obviously experienced. You've placed trust and expectation in men and you've been, in your eyes, used.
But what you're arguing just doesn't stack up. The reason people are getting frustrated and irate with you is because you're petulantly crying "it's damaging and I don't agree, and it has to be stamped out".

It's like an argument coming from someone who has been hurt badly in a motorbike accident who then insists on browbeating everyone who will listen that it's dangerous, and it can't continue, and must be outlawed. You just can't take that simplistic view of the world - it will get you nowhere. People are going to engage in activities you might not agree with. It doesn't make those activities wrong simply because you disagree. You can only take care of yourself, and set your life on your own principles and values. I think this is about more than casual sex for you. You sound completely lost. Why are you looking so closely at the sexual aspect of relationships? You've surely got more to offer than that.

Some men will use you. Some women will use men. People will do the wrong thing by you. You will get disappointed in life. What says more about you is the way you deal with what's thrown at you.

Posted by: CarltonJenny on March 26, 2009 3:01 PM

Personally I don't think it matters if you sleep together on the first date or not. However what does matter is if your expectations are mismatched.

For example say I a sex fiend and I date a girl who wants to wait say 1-2 months. From this I can gather she is not exactly very casual about sex and views it in a very serious and old fashioned manner therefore she probably is not right for me.
Opposite goes if you are quite shy in regards to sex and a girl jumps me after 2 drinks and 1/2 a date I will probably be uncomfortable.

Is it is like the how often shoul you have sex debate as often or as little as you like it is only a problem if you two are mismatched.

I think part of the problem is that girls know 99.9% of guys lurrrvvveee sex and want a girl who does too, so if she sleeps with him on the first date he will know she likes sex and therefore is more likely to want to be with her.

Posted by: HIM on March 26, 2009 3:13 PM

thank you for quoting me.

i believe sex can be had within minutes of meeting someone...if it's right, it's right.

respect is the only mutual thing needed.

good luck to your readers.

Posted by: ellagood on March 26, 2009 3:44 PM

thank you for quoting me.

i believe sex can be had within minutes of meeting someone...if it's right, it's right.

respect is the only mutual thing needed.

good luck to your readers.

Posted by: ellagood on March 26, 2009 3:44 PM

Posted by: Lostie on March 26, 2009 9:26 AM

I appreciate your intentions. But every time I read your posts, I think you're on the brink of disaster.

Even if you want to obey your "code of honour", if things keep going the way they do...do you think she's going to stick around and let you follow your code of honour? What are you going to do if she hands you divorce papers next week??

Do something about it now - tell her that you don't want to the point where you have to think about leaving. Maybe that gives her a wake up call?

Posted by: The Observer on March 26, 2009 4:20 PM

The hookup culture needs to be stamped out!

Posted by: amy on March 26, 2009 9:42 AM

What a boring existence for the 18-25 age group if Amy was to have her way.

Why don't we take away all things that gives us pleasure.... just to make sure.

Posted by: qualityoverquantity on March 26, 2009 4:59 PM

women get the type of men they condition. so, if you want romance and true devotion, cut all the 'hooking' up. They will then treat you better than a warm place to masturbate

But if ones partner does not see a problem, refuses to consider counselling, refuses to talk about the who area and generally says "get over it"-what choices do you have?

Posted by: Lostie on March 26, 2009 9:26 AM

Then, as hard as this is, you need to have a good hard think what you can influence in that situation and what you can't. What is important to you, and what is not. And if you want to bear the risk of being handed the papers even in spite of your devotion. Because that risk is there and very real from everything you write.

Gratitude is not a common thing between have-been lovers. And few experiences are as embittering as the one outlined here. I'd hate for you to turn into the next you-know-who.

Posted by: Markus on March 26, 2009 7:10 PM

Posted by: Catherine on March 24, 2009 11:19 PM

Catherine I have to say firstly thanks for sharing your thoughts and plans regarding celibacy and I have to say I find it inpsirational and a breath of fresh air in this blog. I'm not interested in the men vs women debate on having sex when and where, I'm more interested preserving my heart and ensuring I don't give soemthing up to someone who doesnt deserve it. I have had my heart trodden on more than once and even when I have waited to have sex with someone, most recently 4 weeks (about 9 dates) it still didn't result in the level of respect I deserved from the man invovled and in hindsight I probably shouldnt have slept with him at all. I think sometimes we fall into the trap of, well its easier once you have sex because you are more comortable together and with each other and I dont think thats fair. If you aren't comfortable before then, then you shouldnt be going down that road at all. Of course there is always the risk of building up sex to be more than what it is.

but I think I am seriously considering being celbibate for longer than 30 days, at least 6 months, because there are a lot of men out there who are just after one thing, some obviously are not, but whats the harm in holding back, what will you lose? the odd shag and bit of action? and what will you gain? a sense of self respect and self belief that you deserve more than that. If you don't hold back and just give it up there certainly is a lot to gain but I dare say the loss is far greater, the loss of self respect. I dont care what men think about me if and when i choose to have sex, I care about how I feel about myself and my choices and if I can live with them and they dont keep me awake at night. I think more women should think about that then worrying when they should or shouldnt sleep with soemoen. Is it something you can live with and be emotionally secure and happy with? if not, then dont and dont do it for any reason other than for yourself.

thanks catherine once again I've been thinking about this for quite a while and its good to hear someone else who has strength and determination to put their own emotions first in their decisions in regards to sex and relationships.
cheers
bellamia

Posted by: bellamia on March 26, 2009 9:23 PM

Posted by: bellamia on March 26, 2009 9:23 PM

You women sure no how to complicate and take the fun out of sex by analysing every detail and scenario that it mat produce.

If you are looking for Mr. Right / Life Partner...... then sure.... your comments are valid to a certain extent.

But if you are not ready for the life partner commitment just yet (which many women are not).... then please do not deny yourselves the pure pleasure and innocent fun that sex with a new partner so often provides.

Just remeber to practice safe sex and enjoy yourselves. Your only on this earth once..... some people seem to overlook this fact.

Posted by: bill on March 26, 2009 10:07 PM

Posted by: bellamia on March 26, 2009 9:23 PM

You women sure no how to complicate and take the fun out of sex by analysing every detail and scenario that it may produce.

If you are looking for Mr. Right / Life Partner...... then sure.... your comments are valid to a certain extent.

But if you are not ready for the life partner commitment just yet (which many women are not).... then please do not deny yourselves the pure pleasure and innocent fun that sex with a new partner so often provides.

Just remeber to practice safe sex and enjoy yourselves. Your only on this earth once..... some people seem to overlook this fact.

Posted by: bill on March 26, 2009 10:07 PM

sex is really about sharing love with God. The God qualities or Goddess qualities within another.

God did not give us this ability to disect but to respect.

I think during lent its 40 days and a valid way to show God you love him more than the physical aspect of getting fulfilled by the self or through someone else.

with age this understanding gets easier as its more about the companionship than the physical. This is how love was devised. Can you love without sex. Ask this to the older generations and they will tell you. It doesn't hold the same value it once did when you where younger.

Posted by: Rev Belanger on March 27, 2009 3:16 AM

sex is really about sharing love with God. The God qualities or Goddess qualities within another.

God did not give us this ability to disect but to respect.

I think during lent its 40 days and a valid way to show God you love him more than the physical aspect of getting fulfilled by the self or through someone else.

with age this understanding gets easier as its more about the companionship than the physical. This is how love was devised. Can you love without sex. Ask this to the older generations and they will tell you. It doesn't hold the same value it once did when you where younger.

Posted by: Rev Belanger on March 27, 2009 3:16 AM

Posted by: Markus on March 26, 2009 7:10 PM

With some regret, I must say that I am not the hold a grudge, hate the world, kind of guy - so it is unlikely that I would follow in his footsteps. Sure I may be angry and resentful but as I have mentioned in other posts, I believe in treating people the way that they deserve to be treated not based on my mood or a whim.

AS for whats important Mrs Lostie is important to me, and being true to my word is important to me. I will be respectful and true to both for the rest of my life no matter what happens.

If she hands me the papers that's her choice. I'll feel hurt and rejected, but that's life. I'll remain true to my word regardless (one person for life). I know that I have done everything I can - I work to provide everything (she is unemployed), I cook at least 3 days a week, I wash up every day, tend the yard and gardens & motor vehicles, look after the pets, ask her about her day and try to communicate with her every day. I am not sure what more I can do , there are only so many hours in a day.

C'est la vie.

*Do something about it now - tell
*her that you don't want to the
*point where you have to think
*about leaving. Maybe that gives
*her a wake up call?

* Posted by: The Observer on March 26, 2009 4:20 PM

That would probably work if she didn't know me or know the things that I believe in. She knows I wont leave because I will stay true to my promise to her that I will be there for her for life.

I have long had an issue with the reality that integrity, honesty and loyalty have no guarantee that they will be repaid, as they say "no good deed goes unpunished". Still I'll stay true to my word and go through life as best I can with the choices I have made.

Posted by: Lostie on March 27, 2009 6:50 AM

30 days? No "casual" sex? Is this to do with media attention span or because you people are all sex addicts?

Come on no wonder people are always miserable. They:

1. Fall into bed with a stranger.
2. Decide said stranger is the love of their life.
3. End up in tears either because they're too different for it to work out, or because the other person has decided they're not the one.

My record during my adult sexually active life (after my first serious relationship) was over 5 YEARS. I'm not saying I was happy with that situation but even so my big regret was that I didn't wait for my next long term relationship.

I'm a bloke by the way. Not that it should matter. A "s--t" is a "s--t", regardless of their sex. If you're only after casual sex, that's fine it's your life. If you're after a long term relationship and you're still playing musical beds, you're an idiot.

Posted by: Sammy01 on March 27, 2009 9:41 AM

Sam,

I just saw you on The Morning Show talking about your 30 Day No-Sex Challenge and, while I respect you as a writer, blogger and public personality, I felt as though I needed to let everyone know that?

This is such nauseating, archaic, stereotypical, manipulative C--P ? and it doesn?t work!

You either like each other or you don?t.

Holding out?s not going to make someone like you. Sleeping with them?s not gong to turn someone off you (and if it did, would you really want to be with someone who upholds such a misogynistic double standard?). The circumstances surrounding when you first do the deed has little impact on whether or not the association is going to develop into a relationship. It?s all about chemistry,compatibility, timing and respect (for both yourself and the other person).

Yes, yes, I know? you?ve heard the stories where a couple gets together and, later, the guy says, ?I really liked that she didn?t sleep with me on the first date? (or within the first week/month/year). The truth is, he really liked her anyway!

If you?re not capable of separating sex from love (or you?re going through a phase where you?re feeling a bit delicate and would like to take a little extra care with your emotional wellbeing), that?s ok. Don't do 'it'.

But don?t play games with your sex life thinking it?s going to win someone?s heart or protect you from getting rejected. It won?t.

Posted by: PCV on March 27, 2009 10:11 AM

Is it just me or are more posts vanishing into the ether?

Or Perhaps I am just getting to the stage where my posts are as bad as certain others and are screened out, I would hope that I would be told by my fellow posters if that were the case.

Your post is up now! Sorry it ended up in the junk. - Moderator. x

Posted by: Lostie on March 27, 2009 10:57 AM

That would be right, just as I post it appears. I was, perhaps, too hasty.

I apologise unreservedly to the Mods.

Posted by: Lostie on March 27, 2009 11:00 AM

Posted by: Lostie on March 27, 2009 6:50 AM

You sound like an extremely naive person who has no respect or acknowledgement for your own self-worth. If YOU don't have respect for it, it's no surprise that your wife doesn't either.

I wish you the very best and send my prayers your way, because it sounds like you need it.

Posted by: The Observer on March 27, 2009 11:24 AM

Hmmm. Re. my comment a few comments ago:

All those question marks where apostrophes and dot-dot-dots where meant to go totally changed the meaning of some of the things I was trying to say (not to mention made me look like I can't write).

Oh well.

Posted by: PCV on March 27, 2009 11:47 AM

I would like to point out that a very good friend of mine slept with a guy within 24 hours of meeting him. That was 4 years ago. They are happily married. So, I do not agree with your mate Daniel.

Posted by: aussie chick on March 27, 2009 1:06 PM

You sound like an extremely naive person who has no respect or acknowledgement for your own self-worth. If YOU don't have respect for it, it's no surprise that your wife doesn't either.

* Posted by: The Observer on March 27, 2009 11:24 AM

While I disagree that I am naïve. I think that you are right about the absence of self-respect.

While courting Mrs Lostie we both demonstrated a willingness to do whatever it took to make things work. We respected each others needs (even when it was difficult, such as finding a compromise between my wish to remain a virgin until we were married, and her wish to start a physical relationship) Since the wedding however, this has changed entirely, there is no longer a willingness to compromise, to put in effort or to even consider my needs.

I know I deserve better and, had Mrs Lostie admitted this is what she had in mind, we probably would never have gotten married. We probably would never have even gotten together.

But after fighting this from shortly after our wedding until now, I am getting to the point that I have to admit that I feel that I have no power or rights and the she no longer cares for me, nor shows me any respect or consideration.

I believe I would be a bad person if I were to withhold my love and affection to blackmail her to stay true to her promises.

I believe that I've made my bed and I must live with my choices. Do I see myself as a victim? Not really, I made my choices and thinking back to what I knew when I made those choices, I would do the same things again. Sure, I feel betrayed and deceived but that that doesn't mean that I have given up trying to repair things with my wife. but I do find that it is increasingly futile.

Naïve? I think not. Accepting of my fate? I have not yet rolled over, I intend to fight until my last breath. But I intend to do so with honour and integrity. Not out of belief that I should be entitled to things as a husband, but from a belief that I, Lostie, Deserve to be treated with respect by a person that promised to do what ever it takes to keep out marriage alive.

None the less I find myself madly in love with Mrs Lostie. Her smile, her eyes, he hair, her determination and self assured manner, her laugh, her devotion to things that she considers important. Seeing her every day lifts me up, knowing that I am with the person that I want to share my life with is a constant source of joy and relief. However, the realisation that these feelings are not mutual as I was lead to believe is the cause of much angst.

Perhaps the fact that I still love and respect her is naïve. But, that I stay true to my word is not naïve, or from a lack of self worth but is instead a demonstration of my self respect. That I am not breaking promises in the face of adversity, that I do not flee from difficulties, that I stand my ground and do what I can are at least some source of some self respect. It is something of which I can be proud, confident I am doing the right thing.

Posted by: Lostie on March 27, 2009 3:55 PM

Posted by: bellamia on March 26, 2009 9:23 PM

Good for you bellamia- you stick to your guns!!!

All these men that say you're depriving yourself of some harmless fun and pleasure - they don't -and will never- understand what it is like for some of us girls, who cannot, no matter how hard we try, separate love and sex.

Alot of men dont like women like because it reduces the pool of available casual sex partners for them to use and discard. But F*ck them I say (but alas for them, only figuratively!).

The only time men even get close to the feeling of nbeing used and abused is when they get screwed over royally by their ex wives who divorced them and took them to the cleaners. If men can understand that this is what it is like for girls who get used for sex, then maybe they will have a new appreciation of what they are doing, and perhaps, why so many women DO screw their husbands post-divorce. Too many encounters with users and abusers leaches respects for men from womens hearts, and I believe it is part of the reason women treat men like walking wallets later in life, and have that implicit disrespect for men that so many men pick up on. Its the casual sex culture which tells women that men only see us as sex objects, and inherently discardable. It is no wonder women then look at men for what they're worth, and consider them inherently discardable after the marriage has served its purpose. I believe its two sides of the same coin....

I think you are misunderstanding my point. My point is that unless I feel a strong emotional bond then I'm not going to *want* to sleep with a guy. Maybe some people feel that bond straight away. I hear it does happen. It hasn for me, - the only thing which happens fast -i.e. within a few days, is LUST, and lust is not to be trusted - it is a fools gold (unless you only want sex, and are confident that you wont bond and therefore get hurt).

Personally, I dont act on lust, as I have done so in the past, and been caught by the bonding hormones, when the guy was not. When the lust wore off, I was bonded, he wasn't. Lust is NOT the same as a strong emotional connection, which takes time to establish, as does trust.

I only post what might seem to some my old fashioned views, because I know there are girls out there who have experienced the same thing, and are in the same boat. We may or may not- be a minority, but I would hope the girls who do feel the same way as me are not afraid to own up to their true natures, rather than trying to imitate the ideal promiscuous woman that the raunch culture promotes. Promiscuous people aren't bad, if their promiscuity truly makes them happy. But naturally non-promiscuous people who try to ape the promiscuos people, are setting themselves on a path towards despair, deep sorrow, anger and bitterness.

I think Amy is right, the rooters make life much more difficult for long term relationship types (to find each other without going through a pile of losers and rooters). I don't know what the answer is... maybe dating website set up for relationship-type people, who are screened by psychological testing or interviews? You'd need an army of Lie-to-me type experts to weed out all the players and committment phobes though.

...maybe dating website set up for relationship-type people, who are screened by psychological testing or interviews? You'd need an army of Lie-to-me type experts to weed out all the players and committment phobes though.

We can't even identify bikers who've been continually argueing for long enough to alert those people who are supposed to be trained to identify these exact situations in the real world environment of an airport terminal as "risks"...

What chance has any "truth" expert got of sorting the jewels from the chaff in the cyber world? :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 28, 2009 11:22 PM

Lust is NOT the same as a strong emotional connection, which takes time to establish, as does trust.

I would have thought you'd need to have plenty of trust to share lust with a person who's had less time to have "established" any 'trust' at all.

Sure it might be seen as naively misplaced trust - to put oneself in the way of misadventure that has the potential for far greater trauma than a mere emotional let-down when there's no follow-up phone call; but it'd need to be close to total and uncompromising trust, for someone to put themselves into harms way with such unreserved gusto.

Only people who put up pre-determined barriers formed out of fear, require the development of trust over an extended period of time... but, how long a period of time?

What if the trust is built up over such a long period of time, that any lust to do anything about any remnant of lust just fades as the time draws out? Or, if all the trust is undone by some laughably minute misunderstanding by either party?

All that trust and associated "brownie points" down the gurgler...

There's actually something those who trust they know a bit about trust comprehend about the nature of trust - and that's the fact that without trust you'll never trust.

Better to trust right from the beginning, than to trust in trust growing, just in case it doesn't... :{

Trust really should be like innocence is to the accused - granted until proof indicates otherwise.

I thought our culture believed in the principle of "the benefit of the doubt".

Seems I was wrong. :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 28, 2009 11:55 PM

Better to trust right from the beginning, than to trust in trust growing, just in case it doesn't... :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 28, 2009 11:55 PM

Yeah, but how many times can you do this - give the guy the benefit of the doubt, trust him from the outset, only to have your heart stomped on, and your trust betrayed?

Only an insane person keeps doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I've tried it your way for many years. it doesn't work for me. I have found that many men will take advantage of you if you let them. This has been my experience many times.

So I think I'll try it my way for the next decade. Being single is far preferable to having your heart broken!

Not all of us have thick skins SteveC. Some people are just more sensitive to others, and get hurt more easily. So they have to protect themselves more.

I wouldn't sleep with a girl within the first few weeks if i really liked her, i would pefer to get to know her a bit better first before jumping in the sack with them, Sometimes if it's there for the takings i don't look a gift horse in the mouth

Posted by: Kez on March 30, 2009 5:52 PM

Better to trust right from the beginning, than to trust in trust growing, just in case it doesn't... :{

Trust really should be like innocence is to the accused - granted until proof indicates otherwise.

I thought our culture believed in the principle of "the benefit of the doubt".

Seems I was wrong. :{

Posted by: Steve C on March 28, 2009 11:55 PM

Steve, personally, that's one the bests posts this year.

I am 100% in agreeance with you.

If you trust in someone right from the start and they are not a trustworthy person, then 99% of the time you will find this out well before any significant feelings have been established.

People are so quick to set boudaries and structures that they may be missing out on someone or something amazing because of their efforts to criteriarize (new word, not yet in the dictionary but I am working on having it recognised)every person that comes into their lives.

Posted by: qualityoverquantity on March 30, 2009 6:21 PM

People are so quick to set boudaries and structures that they may be missing out on someone or something amazing because of their efforts to criteriarize (new word, not yet in the dictionary but I am working on having it recognised)every person that comes into their lives.

Sorry guys, but it sounds like you have no idea just how self centred and manipulative some guys can be. If you let them into your life they'll shoot you down! Many men have absolutely no morals, no sense of right or wrong when it comes to the pursuit of casual sex. They will do and say anything to get what they want. They will pretend to be an entirely different person, and some of them are really good actors.

Agreed, not all guys are like this, but a few bad apples gives all men a bad name. How are women supposed to sort out who's who if we don't have some pretty strict boundaries? Yes I agree that that might mean that women miss out on having some great guys in their lives, but its a small price to pay for not being heartbroken TRUST me.

Does make it much harder for genuine guys, but you can thank the culture for that - a culture which tells guys that they are not real men unless they go out and have meaningless sex with as many women as possible. Women who dont want to be caught up in this culture have to have defences for this sort of thing (unless of course they want casual sex, in which case hooray for them).

A lot of guys I meet are the same, they are *pure evil*, the only difference is the way they disguise it. I am so Fed Up!!

I am sick of getting heartbroken. I try to make guys wait for sex but they never do, after a few weeks they just go to the next girl!! Some guys do wait, but they are normally the ugly unnattractive losers which have *no* sex appeal at all.

It has gotten so bad that a large slab of the male population continuously use women, they go from one woman to the next and *never* have a relationship for years and years on end...

It makes me so angry. We live in such a shallow male dominated sex culture, which never allows for love!!

It is good to see that unlike Amy you accept that it is your decision not to trust men that makes it harder for you to meet Mr Right. My only advice in that regard is to stop "searching for Mr right" and think about the places that you hang out. The guys that are virtually invisible to you because you see them every day. Now ask your self if they are the kind of guy that would do these manipulative things.

When you realise that he is not ask yourself this: "When this guy seems to hold the values that I am looking for in a partner, why do I not find him attractive?"

When you can answer that question honestly for all of the guys that you see every single day (but never seem to notice), perhaps you'll see why you have had such bad luck.

Relationships grow from a bed of trust, respect and friendship - not from speculation and distrust.

However I disagree that men say that guys are 'not real men' for keeping it in their pants, it was usually the ladies that said that.

______________________________

Posted by: amy on March 31, 2009 4:05 PM

Your anger will drive any half decent man a mile. You do not trust men that are "trying" yet you are searching for that guy that is different. I would ask you to consider the same thing that I suggested above but I can see from your post what your issue is. If you can't see it in the words that you have written, you will never see it in the mirror.

You are unwilling to offer trust, yet you demand respect.

You are unwilling to offer compromise yet you demand sacrifice.

You are unwilling to offer intimacy, yet demand loyalty.

You are unwilling to offer an open heart, but demand commitment.

You talk about a woman's entitlements, but grant none to men.

When you can see in yourself that your demands match your offers, you will find that you are more at peace with yourself and your chance at happiness will come.

The things that you are looking for begin in friendship and grow from there. They are not found by making demands of others, but seeing what grows from the offer you have made to another.

Posted by: Lostie on March 31, 2009 6:41 PM

For me casual sex is just for fun. After all the pleasures, nothing happens productive.