‘Game Of Thrones’ Discussion: ‘The Lion And The Rose’

(Note: to help clear up the discussion thread congestion, we’re publishing two Game of Thrones recaps this season, one for book readers and one for non-book readers. Doing it this way means those who have read A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows don’t have to begin every conversation with “SPOILER,” or those who haven’t won’t need to worry about learning something they shouldn’t.)

If Game of Thrones has taught us anything, it’s that you should never, ever, ever, ever get married/go to a wedding. Also, pie is superior to cake (COME AT ME), but mostly the marriage thing. First, there was the Red Wedding, and now, there’s the Purple Wedding, in which, if you’ll allow me to put my fancy critic hat on: sh*t. went. down. The king is dead, boys, and while I probably should feel bad about rooting for the death of a 19-year-old kid, I don’t, because I don’t think we’re supposed to.

“The Lion and the Rose,” written by George R.R. Martin, was like the Nickelback’s Greatest Hits of everything that made Joffrey a terrible ruler and an even worse human: laughing at little people, throwing money around like it’s confetti, wasting good wine, taunting his uncle, chopping a book in half with a sword, failing to praise Margaery’s nine-mile-high hair. The episode is practically begging us to admit, Joffrey’s a rotten snake with a belly full of poison, and he deserved what he got.

Let’s go through how Joffrey’s death will affect some key characters:

Sansa: Ser Dontos whisked Sansa away before Joffrey took his final breathe so she could continue breathing. Like Brienne when Renly hit the floor, Sansa’s in an unenviable position — if she stays in King’s Landing, everyone will think she did it. If she flees King’s Landing, everyone will still think she did it, but at least she won’t be around by the time anyone notices she’s gone. I imagine later that evening, Sansa subtweeted, “Ugh can’t believe I used to date him.” (Find her at @JoanOfStark.)

Cersei: While Joffrey’s having the time of his life laughing at the little people and their recreation of the War of the Five Kings, the long, lingering shots of the Purple Wedding guests tell a different story. There’s disgust on their faces, fear even, that this petulant monster is their ruler, and there’s nothing they can do about it. Even Cersei looks disappointed at the actions of this monster, but Joffrey’s HER monster, so while he’s desperately choking on the poison, she’s one of only two people who rushes over to help him, the other being Jaime. But while Cersei’s unable to save him, she is able to swing her dick around and offend everyone at the wedding, including Lady Brienne, Grandmaester Pycelle, and Ellaria Sand. She’s a woman gone mad without power, and she’s going to channel it all at her brother, Tyrion.

Margaery: She’s a tall-haired queen without a smug-faced king. Or at least a king who’s old enough to shoot a whore with a crossbow WITHOUT his mother’s help. With Joffrey gone, Margaery will presumably be forced to marry the next Baratheon in line, which happens to be…

Tommen: ALL HAIL KING…Tommen? That’s like Nazi Germany going from Hitler to some guy named Frank. Maybe he’ll defy Cersei and Tywin’s wishes and be a kindly, gracious ruler who, nope, can’t even finish that. He’s only 12 years old, or thereabouts, and whatever his mom says, goes.

Tyrion: I know Gump Week is over on AMC, but RUN TYRION RUN. No amount of wise-cracking sellswords can help you now, especially when the mother of the king, who also happens to be your sister, accuses you of being the one who poisoned her son while you’re literally holding the evidence. (Not that he’d be stupid enough to commit murder in front of hundreds of people.) The only Lannister who looks worse? Jaime, for rushing to Joffrey’s corpse a split-second too late. Also, Joffrey’s corpse.

Elsewhere in the episode:

-Ramsay Snow is like a free-range version of Joffrey.

-Theon/Reek has never been, and will never be, a favorite character of mine, but Alfie Allen gave one hell of a tortured, bug-eyed performance, toeing the line between savagery and beaten-down passivity.

-Bronn sounds like the kind of teacher who’d grab a beer with his students after class.

-Never drink poisoned wine, never eat symbolic sausages.

-“I SAID I WANTED THE HUNGER GAMES.”

-Melismiledre

-“There is only one Hell, princess. The one we live in now.” Melisandre would be a bad mom.

I thought it was obvious that it was the Tyrell’s. Ever since they showed up they’ve had an agenda, n they knew exactly what kind of person Joffrey was cuz they got Sansa’s confirmation that “he’s a monster.” Plus, Cersei passively acknowledged n threatened Margaery when she told her the story of The Rains of Castamere, how the Rains were the 2nd richest family in the world and were thus destroyed by the Lannisters; the Tyrell’s are now the 2nd richest family in the world…
So I always figured they had secret n devious plans for the throne. And in the latest episode, I came up w a theory that convinces me even more it was the Tyrell’s: when Tywin n old lady Tyrell are walking n talking to each other, Tywin is speaking about how this lavish wedding has pushed them even further into debt. I think that was the plan behind all of the extravagance because the Lannister’s massive debt will greatly deteriorate the strength of their army.

I’m not sure where the Mountain would even be about now, I’ve had about as much luck following where he’s been each season as I have following what he looks like. All I know is he tends to act as Tywin’s personal one man army sooo…
Option a) In The North rooting out and fucking shit some shit up for the remaining Stark supporters.
Option b) At Pike fucking some shit up for the now kinda unprotected Balon Greyjoy. (I assume Stannis is “safe” in that it seems he’s being starved out rather than attacked)
Option c) At Kings Landing to protect the new king now that Jaime has shown himself useless and the Hound has long since buggered off. (Fucking some shit up optional, but likely, particularly with the presence of an angry vengeance hungry Dornish Prince).

Why is there no mention of the dead doves in the pie? I never saw the stone being taken from the necklace, even after watching the feast a second time… I think Sansa just feels bad for Tyrion because hes being treated like shit and hes been nice to her. Completely plausible the jester had something to do with it, but at the same time he could just be being a good guy because she saved him. I’m sticking with dead pigeons.

One of my biggest issues with the death was he puked. Poison he would have puked up and if he choked he couldn’t have puked. But on that account Cersei Killed him by turning him on his back so whatever he was trying to puke up stayed in his throat.

A great bit of camera-work during the royal wedding that displayed Breaking Bad-esque foreshadowing. When the priest who marries Joffrey and Margaery says “Cursed be who would seek to tear them asunder,” the camera shows Oberyn on the left and old lady Tyrell (name?) on the right in the background, while Margaery is in between them in the center foreground.

So, I rewatched this 3 times now to see what the hell happened. That old lady when she was talking to Sansa took one of the jewels off her necklace that the Fool gave her. Right before Tyron gives the goblet for the last time to Joffrey, he takes it from the old lady’s table, and they focus on her face. Right after Joffrey goes to the ground, the Fool tells Sansa if you want to leave you must come now. The Fool and the old lady FTK.

@MissingLink If such a thing were possible (that is, actually being able to edit posts in any fashion here) I’d vote you in as spoiler moderator for the GoT posts (…fuck that recasting article commenting bastard).

@JJ Jr. Yup, I was waaaaay off base, I was trying to go a certain direction with a point, but, I got lost and ended up in Dumbassville (and recently voted Mayor there) * I don’t hang around the non-book reader section to drop subliminals or vague spoilers. I enjoy it here, hearing fresh takes and others thoughts..I also find it much funnier and laid back. I LOATHE SPOILERS, and try to separate the books from the show.

@MissingLink One’s level of investment does nothing to justify one’s hanging around the non-book-readers thread distributing spoilers. And I think you’re making a big assumption in terms of the investment disparity. I’m super-invested; I spend tons of time in these discussion threads, I read wikis, I devour the special features on the blu-rays. I just happen to be an obscenely slow reader (< 10 pages/hr, usually), and reading a book tends to feel like a waste of time for how long it takes me to do.

@procrasty 100% agree, that really came out wrong….Just trying to say….idk, that, maybe book readers are more invested? Rohboy , seems hard to get my point across without giving off a hint of what could be perceived as smugness…yeah, I’ll just stop now, hopefully you know where I’m coming from…..*And my Black Keys analogy looks like a gotdamn hipster wrote it, ugh, I’m just horrible at making a valid point when stoned

@MissingLink Argh, you were so close and then: “Just try and understand, the book readers just have a little more pride in this series”
C’mon, some people just like see the story play out in a different medium, it doesn’t mean they like or respect the series less than people who want to read it first. I’m gradually reading but keeping behind the show, but I don’t like it more than people who want to just watch it play out on TV.
Although obviously the real monsters are people who do neither and just wiki for spoilers, they are the Joffrey’s of the internet.

If you like the show, just read the books, it’s not fucking homework or a punishment. And if you would rather kick it on the couch, and wait for a decade old story to be told, that’s also cool.

Just try and understand, the book readers just have a little more pride in this series, either if they started before or after HBO. I think smugness and passion for the story get confused .

It’s like discovering ‘The Black Keys’ from the jump, and then ‘El Camino’ comes out, and everyone talks about how great they are, but, you already knew that, but want to talk about badass music…… *Probably a shitty analogy,but , I’m high, so , no fucks…..we all just need to agree GoTs owns …and spoilers causes aids, don’t get aids

I think there are some book readers pretending they aren’t and making “guesses”. That probably as bad but honestly you are coming off like a dick. Just try asking nicely maybe.

Then again people are dicks and like to try to spoil other in places no one would want spoilers. This isn’t new. At least Game of Thrones gives you a chance to get ahead of that noise by, you know, actually reading the books. Not being smug but after Ned Stark was spoiled for me in season one the week before that episode aired I just decided it was best to go ahead and read so it didn’t happen again.

Your love of wedding pie has blinded you all to the threat, wedding pie did it! Wine is innocent!

And I’m going with oh I don’t know, Ser Dontas? The Tyrell’s seem unlikely, they had a lot to gain from the union, ‘cept maybe Loras. Lannisers, I could see Jamie botching an attempt to kill of Maegery but that’s it. Can’t see the Dornish pair aiming for the most useless Lannister, think it’s Tywin or bust for them.

If next week opened with a shot of Sansa riding a coach north with a smile like Norman Bates I’d been greatly satisfied, but I’m not sure she’s at Arya level murderous psychosis yet. Yet.

@MissingLink All Jaime’s scenes between him and the other Lannisters have been gold so far. They’ve really well illustrated how he’s gone from being their favoured son/lover/hero to basically rejected by them all, except Tyrion, who’s now accused of a murder, under Jaime’s watch…guess that decency or closure is going to have to wait a bit longer.

Aside: I knew about Joff’s upcoming off from last year via a troll post here, but not when or how. My guess (based on what I thought was foreshadowing last season…and personal hopes and dreams) was a crossbow bolt to the face. Possibly accidental and self inflicted, I liked the idea of him going out via unceremonious blithering stupidity. This way is good to though.

Jaime’s scene with the Kings Guard book of history was very well done. Just not seeing him flipping from evil to good to evil tho, he seems like a man who wants some decency or closure. He is a Lannister, so, yeah, very, very possible….Feels like the Lannisters need Tyrells more than Tys need Lannisters, but it’s a pairing that both parties should be fully on board with.

Clearly Olenna took a stone off of Sansa’s necklace so I would think she used the stone to poison Joffrey. But why did they need to use Sansa to smuggle it in? Does security search you before you gain entrance to the wedding? Or is it just a gem that will be planted to make Sansa the scapegoat? Either way, Olenna seems like a safe choice.

It’s too bad Joff chopped up Uncle Tyrion’s gift… it would have made some nice Book Soup!

To all the haters out there celebrating Joff’s death: I hope someone captures you, changes your name to Reek, and cuts your dick off!

There is NO character on this show that fans “loved to hate” more then King J. When he was on screen, everybody was on the edge of their seat to see what he would do or say next. And so, his smug presence will be missed sorely and you will realize this is a dark day when you have to sit thru boring old Littlefinger, lame ass Roose Bolton, etc. (aka characters you just hate/hate).

I get the feeling Ser Dontas did the poisoning off camera. After Joffrey kicked the goblet under the table, it would have been possible for him to grab and then coat the inside of it before handing it to Sansa (who oddly showed some sympathy for Tyrion). This would also explain why Ser Dontas seemingly came out of nowhere to rescue Sansa.

Or Lady Olenna did it after she took that stone from Sansa’s necklace. It’s plausible, but I don’t buy it since Margaery was so close to elevating House Tyrell’s status and power within the kingdom.

Seeing as the marriage was hours old and not yet consummated i don’t think it gives the Tyrells dick, other than perhaps first dibs on marrying Margaery to Tommen when he’s old enough (and he’s what…11 now?). Arguably still a better position to be in than having her wed to a barely contained psychopath, but they’re not getting that much power out of it.

I’m curious about that. It’s possible she got on and we never see her again. Maybe Bronn lied or maybe Varys knew of the ship and had it stopped. He did say he wouldn’t lie for Tyrion so it wouldn’t be a shock. I’ve read the book and I honestly have no idea if she will be gone or not.

Haven’t read the books because I’m lazy and they’re long, but somehow Mayor Carcetti (Little Finger) has to be behind this. That fucker seems to have his hands in every bad thing that happens in this show.

@procrasty Good point, although I’ve always had my doubts as to what his “feelings” for Cat really constituted. In his sexposition scene in season one, he said something about her being not particularly beautiful, but having “impeccable bloodlines.” And I sorta think he wrote her off entirely after he tried to make a play for her in season 2 and she… reacted poorly; and from then on, he set his sights on Sansa.

Littlefinger does have a reason to get back at the Lannisters, and the Freys, and the Boltons (basically anyone involved in the red wedding and by extension Cat Stark’s death), but I don’t think Joffrey (utter shit though he was) would be his starting point.

He doesn’t see to do the dirty work himself, so my guess is it would be more from the planning aspect. I could just be pulling this out of my ass, but he’s a manipulative, cunning, sneaky prick so why not…..

I like to think Sansa would tweet “REVENGE FOR LADY B*TCH!! #WHERESMYDIREWOLF” but then I remember there’s no twitter in Westeros, which is a shame because I’d subscribe to Bronn and The Hound in a heartbeat.

Tywin and Queen of Thorns conversations are nothing but boss talk, soooo good, they should just fuck already……You know the saying “The older the berry, the sweeter the juice”……That’s how it goes, right?

Am I crazy to think Cersei poisoned Joffrey? It seemed like the shots of all the people who hated Joffrey’s antics at the wedding stood in contrast to Cersei smiling at everything, even though she has never been shown to enjoy his cruelty before. Why set up such a contrast except to point the finger at everyone else? Cersei, who we know hates the Grand Maester Pycelle, never bothered to engage with him in other episodes and yet she made a point to make sure he was no where near the wedding. Pycelle also provided Cersei the nightshade in a previous season that was never used. Might Pycelle have been able to quickly identify the reason for Joffrey’s poisoning and point the finger at Cersei? In another scene, Jaime tells Sir Loras that Cersei will make sure their wedding never happens. Now that Joffrey is dead, Tywin won’t command that Cersei marry a Tyrell and leave King’s Landing. Plus, there was a lot of conversation about how Cersei was no longer the queen and no longer possessed the power she once had. I realize that Cersei has always shouted about her devotion to her children, but she did say recently that even adult-Joffrey cannot kill her memories of her time with infant-Joffrey. Maybe she saw killing him as a solution? I don’t know. Probably just a silly theory. Discuss.

Hah! I love it. I can’t imagine it’s actually the case, but I really wish that you were right. I’d gain so much respect for Cersei if that were the case. But I think she was smirking because that’s just her default expression in public. And he was picking on Tyrion a lot, so she was probably deriving some legit enjoyment from that. As for the bottle Pycelle gave her before the Battle of the Blackwater, she dropped that when Tywin arrived afterward and it shattered. And I don’t see why Joffrey’s death would affect Tywin’s plan to marry-off Cersei.

I think Olenna is a more likely culprit, since (1) the goblet was set down next to her before Joffrey died, (2) she’s never made much of a secret of her displeasure with the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, and (3) she brought up the Iron Bank of Braavos in her conversation with Tywin, after Tyrion mentioned last season that they could be a big threat.

Julius, fair point but when the theory starts with “Am I crazy” I take that as a question and I’ll throw out an answer if it can be done without spoling anything. As for your point that making up theories is half the fun I utterly reject that but only because Dustin Rowles has ruined that for everyone.

Sansa is not independent/righteous enough to conceive a murder plot, at least not by herself…she may have had a hand in the delivery, but I would think someone else was behind it.
I agree not Cersei. She would become VISIBLY shaken/upset in previous seasons whenever Joffrey’s safety was at risk, i.e. during the siege.
Not Tyrion either, unless he put on a spectacular performance at the end there (totally possible). I would guess Tyrells and/or Littlefinger.

The Pycelle part of your theory is interesting. Other than spite (which I’m not ruling out), why send him to deliver the orders about the leftovers? Seems like an odd interaction to include as a throwaway.

It seems to me like so many people had reason and/or motive to want to kill or see Joffrey dead, but Cersei was not one of them. As terrible as Joffrey was, she loved him unconditionally.

By: armyofbastards

04.14.2014 @ 12:52 PM

That’s a take that did not occur to me. Very interesting. I haven’t read far enough down the comments section to see if I’m stating an obviously held belief, but as soon as Cock-boy started choking, I immediately thought that Sansa handed Tyrion a poisoned goblet, planted by the Jester, and that she was getting revenge for all of the dead Starks

I had the same thought, specifically since she secretly told Pycelle to make sure the dogs get the leftovers and not the people. Not sure if that was specifically about the pie, but it seems the pie was the most likely vehicle for the poison. Plus, she remains Queen Regent now so she had the most to gain/lose with the wedding taking place. Plus, she was mighty quick to point the finger so it was almost as if she orchestrated it all as a means of getting Tyrion out of her way.

Cersei has always seemed to hold her children dear, though, so not sure she would go through with it.

Oh another reason Tywin wanted to kill Joffrey: Margaery had too much influence on him. If consumated, Margaery knows how to play to his arrogance and manipulate him to do certain things, plus she would be queen. I don’t think Tywin particularly cares for Olenna since she MIGHT have more wealth than Tywin, he’s not going to let her daughter be Queen. He can’t kill the Queen because Joffrey would eventually find out that it was him and order his execution, since he’s an impulsive asswipe, but…he can kill Joffrey and get a better puppet.

I can see Tywin being behind it, but I don’t think the Tyrells need to be part of the motivation. Joffrey has already proven his ability to be a colossal fuck up when given even the slightest bit of freedom, and Tywin is aware he’s not going to be around forever. Killing Joff now would significantly lessen the chances of Westeros going the shit within days of his death. However, I don’t see such a public murder as Tywin’s thing, if Cercie can pull off the murder of both a Hand and a King without suspicion you’d be sure Tywin could.

I havent read the books, but someone mentioned in another post that the “purple wedding” title was given by fans of the book because of all the purple decorations. Only Joffreys stupid face was purple in the end, which is fine by me. I only hoped that his death would have been more violent, like a neck stab at least! Great episode.

I guessed that it was because Joffrey’s face was purple. Now I haven’t read the books, either, so I would need to look at it and see if Martin uses the word purple in describing how Joffrey looks after being poisoned and that that is why it is called the Purple Wedding.

Melisandre is terrifying in her own right, but Stannis wife the zealot – and the actress’ portrayal of the character are terrifying in a different way. The way she communicates that character’s insanity with her eyes is very impressive.

The scene where they burned the heretics at the stake was oddly beautiful. The cinematography, production design on this show are wonderful as well – better than alot of movies I’ve seen recently. In fact I’d go a step farther and say over the last few years I’ve become more excited to watch television shows than I do to go movies: “Breaking Bad”, “Hannibal”, “Game of Thrones”, “True Detective”.

Absolutely same here, regarding TV vs. movies. And I think Selyse might be #1 on my list of characters I wish would die. She has just as few redeeming qualities as any of the big bads, and she’s also less fun to watch than any of them.

I would let Ms. Melly Mel Melisandre terrifying the everliving shit out of me & I’d love ever second of it. As a wise man on these forums once said, I am going to make the next woman I bed say “come conquer death with me” as we get down to business.

When he thanked Tyrion for the book, I (briefly) wondered if it was gonna be like the Sopranos where Ralphie’s kid was in the hospital, then you actually start to feel sympathy for his character before he was brutally snuffed out.

Ok, here’s how i believe it played out. Olenna did it with while they were distracted – she used the necklace from Sansa’s neck. the one Sir Chubby guy who i dont remember his name, gave to her. Hence all the obvious camera shots to her chest back and forth and her exchange with Sansa, and Twyin.

questions: I wonder whether Jamie knows that Joffrey is his? and would he react as a grieving father? How old is Brann now, and where is he meant to be heading? how many brothers does Joffrey have and is that weird- looking man child meant to be king or is the New queen the Queen?

Also, Oleena implied that the Lannisters were broke and that she paid for the wedding – I’m not sure how big the Tyrrells are in the westeros Game, as they seemed to be cashed up. Cashed up people have big armies, Renly’s Baratheon.

Also whatever happened to the other Bastard…the one that was a slave. This seems to be the series of the bastards…

I’m pretty sure Jaime knows Joffrey’s his. The way he ran to Joffrey’s aid, calling him “Joffrey,” definitely seemed more like familial concern than a guard helping his king. I guess an uncle might act that way with his nephew, too; but additionally, we know he was privy to the plot to kill Jon Arryn, and since that whole thing was about the kids’ parentage, Jaime likely knew that was the reason they killed him.

The war has cost a lot to the Lannisters, and they’ve loaned a ton of money to the throne through the years of Robert’s reign. The throne itself owns massive amounts of money to the Iron Bank of Bravos, and the books are a total mess that only Littlefinger can figure out, he basically is the Bernie Madoff of Westeros. So yeah, the Lannister are not in an ideal financial situation, but they have gold mines back home, that helps.

The Tyrells are pretty rich too and probably don’t have any debt, so you could say they’re “richer” than the Lannister at this point.

I’m 99.9% sure that it’s been stated that Jamie knows he’s Joffrey’s father. First season I think there’s a discussion about it and even last episode it’s implied in the conversation he has with Tywin.

I don’t think the Lannister’s are actually broke. Way back when Tyrion became master of coin Tywin makes it very clear that Casterly Rock will not pay for all the debit that King Robert racked up with tournaments and booze. That leaves Kings Landing on it’s own and in massive amounts of debt.

@warrenbishop Shae, Bronn, and Jaime break him out. He goes to either Castle Black with Jon Snow or he goes to meet with Oberyn. Either that or Cersei goes to taunt him and she realizes that he’s not the real killer and she breaks him out.

I think that’s a given. I really like Tyrion, but he just never catches a break. How is he going to get out of this though? He’ll have to get out of the city and somehow find out how the real murderer is (which he’s smart enough to do).

Yes. I think Tywin’s given up on both Jamie and Tyrion. He needs a successor, someone to rule Casterly Rock (sp?) – so maybe he’s hoping the grandchildren from Margery and Tommen’s marriage will rule the seven kingdoms and Casterly Rock.