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By Any Means Necessary…

I’m just doing a little housekeeping, updating the local blogroll due to some recent changes in the Bermudian blogosphere.

Firstly, the blog formerly known as ‘A Radical in Bermuda’ has decided to change its official name to ‘By Any Means Necessary’ and provides his reasonings for doing so here. In accordance with this decision I have changed the name of his blog on my blogroll. His other post ‘Bermudian Politics and this Blog’ raises some interesting questions though about the level of discourse and the importance of the new technologies, that blogs are one representation of, in the shaping of political discourse and thought.

In his post he writes about his disgust with the ‘…absolute pettiness of Bermudian politics and the general inability (with the exception of a few people) to see beyond the imposed artificial dichotomy of green & white and green, gold & blue.’

There is alot of truth to this statement. Anyone who has ever bothered to attend a sitting of the House of Assembly would be aware of some of the truly schoolboy antics that pass for our representatives allegedly attending to ‘the people’s business.’ It truly is beyond banal at times. And the level of discourse is often dragged down by the most vulgar of comments and arguments that seem to distract from any serious thorough-going analysis and argument. Perhaps this isn’t too suprising, after all, its always fun to have a good passionate row even if its over something totally irrelevant.

All the same I remain committed to the idea that with patience and persistence it is possible to advance political discourse and develop class consciousness. There will always be those who will seek to divert such attempts, be it because they simply enjoy wreaking havoc or because they are afraid of the consequences of such discussion. Often times I feel the diversions stem more from miscommunications and different life experiences and approaches than any committment to distraction. In these cases it is important for both sides to do their best to understand where the other is coming from and not react to percieved attacks.

It is my firm belief that more people are willing to engage in rational discussion than there are those who would seek to prevent doing so. It’s hard, and I know many get frustrated dealing with the pettiness, but I believe it is worthwhile.

There are also issues with anomynity. I generally have a greater respect for someone and their argument if they are willing to sign their real name to it, to have the courage of their convictions. But one cannot simply dismiss an argument because the presenter chooses to use a false name. It may reduce the credibility, but one must still deal with the argument presented all the same. There are many reasons why people choose to use these false names. For some it is simply a fun alias, and these people are not afraid to sign their real names also, and most people familiar with Bermudian blogging know who these people are already.

Others choose to use these false names out of fear of reprisals. On a small island such as our own it is a very real potential to be ostracised or otherwise harrassed if you choose to stand up for what you believe in, especially when this conflicts with the status quo or established power and tradition. Our history is full of examples of such reprisals, be it from the mutinies and strikes that accompanied the wreck of the Sea Venture, the slave rebellions, or more recent threats to oligarchic hegemony (from Monk to Mazumbo and beyond). As such these false names, and the features of the blogs, are important in that they allow discourse that would otherwise be silenced, either by fact or by perception of repercussions.

The problem with them is that it is very easy to abuse the sense of liberation that they provide. I call this a ‘Lord of the Flies’ phenomenon, where the ‘hunters’ hidden behind the mask of their warpaint are liberated from the social conventions they normally would have been bound by. Some users of false names exploit their ‘warpaint’ to launch unnecessary personal attacks on others, detracting from discourse. Others use multiple aliases to manipulate or derail discussion. Others are just generally annoying, revelling in the distractions they can make hidden behind their aliases.

I am not opposed to people using their aliases, as I feel the benefits of allowing discussion that may not occur due to real or percieved repercussions should their identities be known far outwieghs the cons that are the flies in our midst. I expect that posters will do their utmost to avoid being distracted or reacting to the antics of those who would exploit the liberatory powers that aliases and blogs provide.

With that said, I look forward to continuing discourse on this site and working to develop revolutionary consciousness by any means necessary, this site being one of those means.

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114 thoughts on “By Any Means Necessary…”

My main reason for changing the name and direction of the blog is twofold: one, I felt that there are many other blogs which do a much better job commenting on local issues that an I ever do, and two, in my opinion, local politics has descended to simply pissing on Brown and the PLP for their faults all the while providing little to zero alternative solutions.

Bravo to you Rowland Keshena. You are right on the money when you say “issues has descended to simply pissing on Brown and the PLP….”, but I would also include those of us who publicly support the PLP, and hence the leadership. If “they” only pissed on him and the PLP, it wouldn’t be too bad, but some have visions of dropping a plane-load of excretment on the Premier.

Still continuing to perpetuate that lie, eh, Laverene? Just like the PLP blog continuing to perpetuate the lies that the PLP’s free daycare is for all Bermudians (after passing a bill that establishes an upper threshold), or that there are 8,000 long term residents that would have been given the vote under the UBP’s plans (after Derrick Burgess has admitted that the number of PRCs issued is considerably less)?

I honestly don’t understand why you and the party do it. It’s just so unnecessary. It doesn’t make your arguments any more compelling; if anything, it detracts from them, and from your credibility generally.

“. . . an airline pilot who was to joke about ejecting his aircraft’s bathroom waste over the Premier’s residence”. Somebody had to have that vision to put it into thought and then write it. It would never cross my mind to think of making such a “joke”. But we need not rehash this subject.

Although I don’t qualify for daycare anymore, I’m just happy that some Bermudians will benefit from the PLP’s initiative.

I don’t think that anyone would be surprised that Philip Wells understand me or the PLP. I think it was Bob Marley who said “He who knows it feels it”.

You know how to shut critics of the PLP up? Construct a logical argument that eschews lying, distortion and evasion. It would be much harder to rebut.

And that’s what’s so perplexing about the whole daycare thing. It *is* a great initiative. I’m happy that the PLP have passed it. And having an upper cap on salary to qualify makes perfect sense. So why does the party need to lie about it? To try to make out that it’s benefiting even more people than it actually is?

Any why make such a big deal about excluding non-Bermudians, as if including them would somehow mean Bermudians were being put second? If the number of non-Bermudians with children earning under the cap is so small, it would cost the Government next to nothing to extend the benefits to them, yet give them massive kudos for looking out for *all* of the Island’s poor.

Rummy, I never mentioned colour, I said, he who knows it feels it. Of course I know that some white people have suffered since 1609, however I do believe that the majority of people who have suffered are black.

Limey, it was not the PLP who made a big deal about the daycare initiative only benefiting Bermudians, it was the UBP. Remember, it’s John Barritt who says it’s a human rights issue because it doesn’t benefit all Bermuda residents. In my opinion, the PLP is doing the right thing by taking care of Bermudian families.

By the way, if you want me to put in the whole quote I can do that as well. The whole thing was nasty!!!

No need for you to put in the whole quote Laverne. I did that on this site several weeks ago, here, along with an explanation of why you are simply wrong to keep representing it as an attack on Ewart Brown. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you didn’t see it.

On daycare. Of course the PLP should take care of Bermudian families. But that does not preclude them from taking care of non-Bermudian families too. Does it?

On reflection, I think you’re right that it was the UBP who initially made a “big fuss” about the exclusion of non-Bermudians. But since Bermuda’s Human Rights Act forbids less favourable treatment on the grounds of “national origins” that seems an entirely reasonable objection to raise. But the PLP’s response, instead of calmly explaining their rationale for this, and why it does not breach the Human Rights Act, has simply been to shrilly denounce the UBP as “pro-guest worker”, as if that was a bad thing. This is easy to attack as xenophobic. Surely it would have been in the party’s interest to instead calmly explain why the UBP’s concerns were unfounded?

Now Dale Butler did say that the UBP had not raised any objections during consultation on the Bill, and I would like to hear John Barritt’s response to that. But he still did not explain why the PLP made the decision to exclude non-Bermudians in the first place.

Laverne, you don’t have to mention ” colour” , it’s implied. Marley was a Jamaican, most are of a mix or black. Whatever. Now, if you would have brought up the names ‘Chin, Yang, Foo, I might have been able to understand since these names are associated with China and have been since the begining of time.

The last thing you should try and do is read my mind and tell me what I imply. I certainly wouldn’t try and read your mind. As difficult as it might be for you, try to have an intelligetn debate. And please don’t respond about what my son does. We’re two separate people.

See, this is exactly what Johnny is talking about. In less than twenty posts to get back to the picking at each other, instead of acting like adults and discussing the issue for betterment of ALL bermudian residents.

First the PLP should be commended for instituting a free day care program, even if it is the UBP’s program as opposed to the one the PLP promised before the election.

On the question of granting status to long term residents, if I remember correctly when the PLP introduced the concept of PRC they indicated that there were only a couple of thousand potential candidates. [The number 1,920 sticks in my head but I could be wrong.] There was a post on http://www.politics.bm on this topic but I’m too lazy to find it.

Of course, if Bermuda were to go independent all of those PRC’s and their children (including those that don’t qualify as PRC’s in their own right) would become citizens. But we won’t mention that. And of course we won’t mention the other residents who don’t qualify for PRC and wouldn’t qualify for status under the UBP’s proposal who would be granted citizenship as condition to the UK telling Bermuda to go it’s own way.

Take some time out of your busy schedule, go back and read the posts on this site and then tell me what you come up wtih. Tell me who is picking at each other. I think even my 11 year-old grand-daughter can see what’s going on here.

Blankman, the PLP never promised to grant status to long term residents. But, if you want to take your information from Politics.bm, then you will have a convoluted ecplanation of the reality. Just as a point of information, Christian Dunleavy is not an experty, on anything!!!

You are such sick people. Who’s your Cup Match team? I’m for Somerset, but I’m excited that Charlie Marshall has made the team again this year.

By the way, “The Truth”, yes, the same granddaugther that I had on the stage at the PLP rally. Did I call Shawn Crockwell a confused negro? Is he? In my opinion his political commentary during the lead-up to the election showed me that he was confused, and he is a negro, isn’t he?

Poor girl. I feel for her. I can’t imagine having to endure indoctrination at such a tender age on a stage in front of a few hundred juiced up zealots in deck chairs. Tragically it will live on thanks to the internet.

Surely you had the decency to send her home before the real meat of the race baiting began? Mercifully only exposing her fragile ears to the rambling recounts of a senile talk show addict.

“Blankman, the PLP never promised to grant status to long term residents.”

LaVerne,

You might want to read what I actually wrote. Before the election the UBP said PRC’s should get status. The PLP responded with the nonsensical statement that this would create 8,000 more Bermudians – the number is nonsensical in itself since it’s a multiple of the one quoted by the PLP when they created the concept of PRC.

And that statement ignores the fact that if Bermuda were to go independent the UK would require that all PRC’s get status together with their children. In the past as a condition of independence the UK has REQUIRED that anyone that’s lived in a country more than six years be granted citizenship (another discussion but that’s the real motivator behind the six year term limit).

Yeah you did MS. Furbert. You claim to know/speak the truth, but you blatantly lie and say “i don’t use that term” when it is on the internet for everyone to see. If that’s how you are going to bring up your children/grand children then this isalnd will always remain divided.

Nice thought Alsys, but I don’t see that happening. Every comment is translated into a black/white issue, rather than being seen on it’s own merits. It’s a sign of an immature democracy I’m afraid.

LF comes at it with her personal history shaping her thoughts (understandable in part) plus her selectivity in responding, and others do the same thing. The funny thing is that many can’t see that “cherrypicking” speaks volumes about one’s answers.

Phil Wells got it right when he said:

“You know how to shut critics of the PLP up? Construct a logical argument that eschews lying, distortion and evasion. It would be much harder to rebut”.

I don’t see that happening. Rationale debate cannot exist this situation.

I know and see that, Mike but we have to start somewhere. Responses are just as important. If certain posters respond illogically that shouldn’t mean we then have to response to said “attacks” with one of our own. Contrary to what some believe, people do pay attention to this and other blogs and constructive dialogue is possible provided we don’t sink to their levels. It’s like when someone shouts at you, if you shout back nothing is solved but if you simply talk and reiterate your point of view, they may still not hear you but “I” just might.

I agree with you totally – no argument. I try and behave as we are discussing, but then I too screw it up and drop to the lower level when I am attacked, or when the language in a response is provocative – presumably deliberately so.

I can cope with illogical and also factually ignorant responses. But when certain people on here – (or BDSux) – set out to deceive, to lie, to twist the truth, to mislead, then it not only becomes pointless but brings the overall level of debate down to the “attackers” level.

Going back to what Phil Wells said, i.e. logical argument, really is an inappropriate approach for some people on here. And the problem with that is that if you don’t argue from “first principles”, then you are in difficulty because like a lie, it becomes difficult to keep it going. It gets messy.

Add to that, that some on here are – well frankly – scary, if you get my drift?

mike, the truth 9p – lets do it ur way – i will not assume that everything u say is racist – we’ll start from scratch.

what exactly did u mean by juiced up zealots?

i think what u don’t get is that the history of politics in bda is racial – so when u refer to phillip wells (ie white englishman) as being logical but the pro plp supporters as being “juiced up zealots” – those statements are too loaded for u to claim no racial intention – ur either naive or disingenuous

if every attack that comes from u is directed at a blk person what should we take from that? even starling who is a plp supporter escapes ur name calling – one wonders why.

re; real debate – the real fact that the bda blogs are populated almost exclusively by white men makes that impossible – sadly many whites in bda seem to feel marginalised in the real world and thus have to resort to expressing their frustration online – cuz they can’t do it in church or social clubs or social settings (or political rallies) the way that blk bda (and unions) do –

because of that – whether u realize it or not – ur tone on these sites does not invite debate – one need only glance at the posters n this site – though it’s a pro labour site and nominally a pro plp site – the bulk of the regular posters are white and anti plp who have an axe to grind – not exactly an ideal set up for debate

“You know how to shut critics of the PLP up? Construct a logical argument that eschews lying, distortion and evasion. It would be much harder to rebut”.

Phil Wells gives his opinion and I give mine. He has the right to criticise the PLP and I have the right to support the PLP. If Phil Wells, or anyone else posts incorrect information, I see nothing wrong with me or anyone else correcting that.

Mike, we all come with our personal history which shapes our responses to any and all situations. If you want to think that I “cherry pick” so be it, but if I am asked a questions I respond to the best of my ability and knowledge.

However, I, like you, accept that rational debate cannot exist on this site, especially when it is the intention os so many posters to constantly criticise the PLP and then to not expect people to rebut that criticism.

“However, I, like you, accept that rational debate cannot exist on this site, especially when it is the intention os so many posters to constantly criticise the PLP and then to not expect people to rebut that criticism.”

Ms. Furbert,

We live in a democracy. Thus there will always be oppostion to the party in power. And in a democracy we (the people, yes even the opposition)are afforded the right of free speech. So we exercise that right on blogs such as these and the so called “rebuttal” offered by individuals such as your hateful son is that we are “haterz, crackers, and racists…” He has no merit in any of his accusations, except for what his hate filled mindset allows him to think. Maybe that was due in part of his upbringing as you stated in your earlier post in this thread.

So basically you would like to see a site that argues strictly for the PLP with no criticisms (or censorship of these accusations) of any of their actions, because in your mind they shouldn’t be held accountable, especially by the opposition who has a different skin color. Seems fair to me and certainly conducive to a healthy democracy (note sarcasm).

I read in one your letters to the editor that you are taking courses up at the college now and how proud you were of yourself. That is very commendable. While there try a political science course that focuses on the rights and functions of a democracy and skip the totalitarian/authoritarian courses offered, you have a good idea of thos apparently already.

Tactic A for you is to ascribe meanings to words that simply aren’t there and then attack your new definition.

Tactic B is to piece together various people’s comments as if they were from the same individual on the same topic and then claim a conclusion that simply does not exist:

“so when u refer to phillip wells (ie white englishman) as being logical but the pro plp supporters as being “juiced up zealots” – those statements are too loaded for u to claim no racial intention – ur either naive or disingenuous”

The Phil Wells comment and zealot comment were two different people on two different topics. This isn’t about naivete or being disingenous, it’s about you fabricating things to make a racial comeback to. You are not naive, but you are the definition of disingenuous.

Your game is obvious. That notwithstanding, you still disgrace yourself, your family, your party and this country which you abandoned yet routinely defame.

alsys, as i said in my post some of “those statements are too loaded…” – obviously not all attack are racial – but as a poster recently said to me on bda sux (we seem to attack blks so much on this because the “whole team” is blk)

that maybe so but it doesn’t mean that people aren’t using that fact as cover to spew racist sentiments.

i’m a barack supporter – recently a commentator on the Mclaughlin Group said that obama was too “exotic” for some voters – is that racist in itself – no – but does it have a negative racial undertone – hell yes – again it’s either naive or disingenuous

when some on the US media talked about Hilary clinton’s “shrill” voice and her “cackle” – were they being sexists?i think so.

if the bdan (bda based) white men (mostly) on these sites constantly use words like zealot and illogical etc. to describe the average plp supporter (who is blk) – what are we to take from that?

No. That’s not the way it works. This isn’t semantics. It’s definitions. You completely fabricated a racial connotation as you always do and then want to walk away from something minutes later with ‘agree to disagree’.

You are full of it and you know it. You got called on your deliberate racial incitement but can’t deal with it because you’re a complete and utter fraud. So you want to run away like the racist coward you really are.

Well done. I expected no less of you.

Here’s some free advice.

Pack it up. Live the life in Canada you chose but leave the rest of us alone, those of us who actually want to live here and get along with all of our fellow Bermudians. It’s much harder with you spreading such vile hate from afar.

again – i’m trying to move on and have a debate – if u disagree with my assertion that some of the plp bashing on this site is race cased then so be it – we’ll have to agree to disagree.

i don’t know if u’ll answer but u didn’t comment on this:

i’m a barack supporter – recently a commentator on the Mclaughlin Group said that obama was too “exotic” for some voters – is that racist in itself – no – but does it have a negative racial undertone – hell yes – again it’s either naive or disingenuous

when some on the US media talked about Hilary clinton’s “shrill” voice and her “cackle” – were they being sexists?i think so.

Why do any of you respond to Vanz? He’s not here for debate, he’s here for entertainment. He loves nothing more that lobbing an outrageous statement into the conversation, then sitting back and laughing at how worked up all us white boys get about it. I doubt he means half of what he says. Ignore him, or join in and have some fun by lobbing a few ironic “nigger”s or “confused negro”s back at him. But for God’s sake, don’t take him seriously.

Well, that’s where I think the problem is. I’m a black PLP supporter. I don’t get any of the directed insults that you do. I don’t get called a zealot yet my belief in my party and my support of it is no less than yours. Admittedly mine is anonymous on here and Sux but it isn’t on facebook or any of the other places I post. The difference between you and I is that I don’t boil everything down to the lowest racial denominator, I realize and accept criticism without adding my opinion of bias to it. And I would never use the language you do on a daily basis as a method of winning an argument, without addressing the argument at all.

r u saying that one of the only few blk male posters on this site should not be engaged – rather let’s just have this site be a discussion between “us white boys”?

“The election demonstrated that criticism does not hurt the PLP. On the contrary, it makes it stronger. Any external criticism validates widespread feelings of victimhood within the party and helps unite its various factions.”

this is ur last post – the PLP and it’s forerunners have been around since at least the 20s – u’ve been here a matter of years – yet u suppose to tell us – the sons and daughters of those early civil rights activist that our 80 year history of struggle is nothing more than “victimhood”

pray tell – can we also sum up the struggle against apartheid as simply as well?

“The difference between you and I is that I don’t boil everything down to the lowest racial denominator, I realize and accept criticism without adding my opinion of bias to it. And I would never use the language you do on a daily basis as a method of winning an argument, without addressing the argument at all.”

that’s fine – we’re too different people – a political party works because it has members who choose to be diplomatic – but it also has to have members who are combative.

for all of the diplomacy that the ant apartheid movement engaged in (and understand that as early as 1903 south african blks went to the UK to try and diplomatically deal with the worsening situation w/ the dutch) it wasn’t until the anc told it’s supporters ” to render south africa ungovernabe” that apartheid finally fell.

i don’t know where u went to school but i went o howard and hampton – both which inform the way that i view race – most importantly it’s informed me that u can be pro blk and still go to harvard and work on wall street as some of my friends from college do.

this is ur last post – the PLP and it’s forerunners have been around since at least the 20s – u’ve been here a matter of years – yet u suppose to tell us – the sons and daughters of those early civil rights activist that our 80 year history of struggle is nothing more than “victimhood””

First of all you are not “here.” You don’t live in Bermuda and have chosen to become a full time Canadian citizen instead.

Why should we engage you when the depth of your rebuttals are “cyber kkk, crackers, rednecks, haterz, racists….etc.” You add nothing to debate except the hate that you spew on a daily basis. You attack any poster that tries and debate a topic, but only do it to one’s that hold a different view than you.

Weren’t you banned from the PLP Youth blog for that type of nonsense anyways? If it is true then doesn’t having your OWN party take those actions show that you have a major problem with hate and racism?

If you are trying to change then prove it. One post with two lines claiming that you are is not enough to erase the nasty and unfounded claims you have made and continue to make towards people whose opiions differ from yours.

First of all, thanks for your response Ms Furbert. I hear what you say.

Second, whilst I will stop posting here (for the 2nd time Vanz as you may recall!), I just want to ask one question.

“Why is it, that we appear to be moving (indeed have moved) to a situation where something cannot be said without it being determined as racist? I am getting to the stage where the number of words I can use is down to about 5 or 6, and two of those are not “Good morning” since that appears to be loaded too!

“for all of the diplomacy that the ant apartheid movement engaged in (and understand that as early as 1903 south african blks went to the UK to try and diplomatically deal with the worsening situation w/ the dutch) it wasn’t until the anc told it’s supporters ” to render south africa ungovernabe” that apartheid finally fell.”

No-one is questioning your right to support the PLP, or to rebut criticism of the party, or to correct anyone who posts information that’s wrong. Where has anyone here said that? Your weakness is the speed with which you reach for distortions like these, instead of rebutting the arguments on their own terms.

Ultimately you may have no more success in persuading us of your point of view by debating like this, but at least you’ll be in with a chance.

alsys, also re; “a daily basis as a method of winning an argument” – u do understand that there’s no winning of arguments in re; to politics in bda – there is a reason why in the 40 year history of the plp that no matter what their platform was or who their leader was – white bda refused to vote for the plp in any real numbers – as matter of fact – blk voters are the only swing voters in bda who vote on issues other than race and will shift support in an election by election basis – i’ve seen the responses to ur posts on bda sux – in spite of ur well intentioned well thought out posts – the responses by the regulars there are still downright disrespectful and rude –

and pls don’t mistake what i say as anti white – the bulk of my social and professional network in toronto where i live is white – but there is a nastiness that white people in bda have adopted that even my white friends in toronto who have gone to school w/ some whites in canada have observed.

tonight i’m having dinner with a group of friends from several races – i bet most of the white posters on this site can’t claim the same – yet i’m the racist right

Granted, vanz. This is one of those situations in which I defer to you, in that this is the manner in which you choose to respond. I would just say that you reap what you sow and if you view everything in an attacking manner then it shouldn’t be any surprise when that’s all you get back.

Everytime you refer to me as LaVerne I cringe. Let me tell you why. Years ago my father worked in a grocery store and part of his job was to deliver groceries. I recall so vividly how the children would refer to him by his first name, although he always referred to their parents who were much younger than him as Mr. or Mrs. I don’t recall us being on first name basis. I wouldn’t expect you to understand how that makes me feel.

9ps,you do not have to tell me that we live in a democracy. I’m pretty sure I’ve lived on planet earth a little bit longer than you. Also, I spent 11 years of my life working for the Opposition Leader when the PLP was fighting for a more democratic country than we had at that time. No, I would not like to see a site that argues stricktly for the PLP, and I have never said that. All I ask is that my opinions be respected, not agreed to.

With regard to the Bermuda College, what you read was that at the age of 50, after both of my sons had graduated from college, I enrolled at the Bermuda College and later graduated with an Associate of Arts degree. Yes, I am very proud of that accomplishment. I knew about the rights and functions of a democracy prior to studying at the College.

Alsys, all I will say to you that I understand why the people on Bermuda Sux treat you as they do. But, as I said before to you, go back and reread your posts and the responses when you’ve tried hard to get your point across in support of the PLP. They’re fine with you when you go along with them, but when you disagree, read what they say.

Indeed it does. There are many posters I can name that have this issue (myself included at times). But I directed my comments at you because Jonathan says you are a very intelligent man and I’d love for all the people that believe that PLP supporters are loud, use racial arguments when they don’t have any other leg to stand on and are ignorant, to be proven wrong.

vanz – when you’re having your glorious supper of diversity tonight (that as a Black Jewish working class kid from sarf london I can only dream of) you might want to ponder the two immutable truths that discourse has thrown up.

Firstly – there were a number of anachronistic bigots in Bermuda in the 1970s that made life unpleasant for a lot of blk ppl (to use your attempts at txt spk).

Secondly – you are an unapologetic self confessed bigot (not racist as I think that would give too much nuance to your knee jerk responses.)

The two are not mutually exclusive, although I think the thought that they are, is what fuels a lot of your animus.

Oh I know. I refuse to let some silly people make me any less than what I am. I believe in what I say and do. I get angry and frustrated just as much as anyone else but my dignity is worth more to me than sinking to others levels. Sometimes an eloquent whisper resounds louder than a shout.

“No, I would not like to see a site that argues stricktly for the PLP, and I have never said that. All I ask is that my opinions be respected, not agreed to.”

Ms. Furbert,

Fair enough and I will take your word for it. But there is opposition and there will always will be, no matter who is in power. And when this opposition states their protests against certain governmental actions and is responded to by wild allegations of racism, namely by your son on a daily basis, the thread is inevitably giong to get derailed. I bite everytime, because I find it very offensive, not just as a Bermudian but as a human being to be accused of such things with no merit or justification behind his comments.

Unfortunately I am not the only one that falls for your son’s ignorant comments everytime and, ultimately he is the main reason (not the whole) that sites liek this do not does contain constructive debate.

For a debate to exist there must be two OPPOSING views. When individuals post their opposing views, Vanz in all his tolerance (for white Canadians only it seems) goes on a racist tirade and offers nothing to back his claims up or provide evidence as to how the opposition is incorrect in their statements regarding the actions of PLP MP’s/Senators. That is not debate, that is hate.

And Ms. Furbert, I mean what I said about commending you to continue your education, I was being rude or sarcastic.

If you want to think that I “cherry pick” so be it, but if I am asked a questions I respond to the best of my ability and knowledge.

Ok, Mrs. Furbert. Notwithstanding the 7 other unanswered questions I posed on another thread; I’ve asked the following question a number of times but am still waiting for a direct answer.

Taking into consideration the housing shortages currently in place and the PLP’s policy to restrict Bermudians from selling their homes to non-Bermudians (regardless of ARV threshold) is it acceptable for the Bermuda government to sell Bermudian land to foreigners?

If you want people to treat you with respect then you have to treat them with respect. Respect is earned, not taken, or given for free. Treat your fellow man with respect and he will do the same for you. In short R-E-S-P-E-C-T, find out what it means to me.
As a side note, don’t be a grocery bagger, who the fuck is going to respect you if you do the jobs reserved for tards or kids??

“I can’t imagine having to endure indoctrination at such a tender age on a stage in front of a few hundred juiced up “niggers” in deck chairs.”

“I look forward to continuing discourse on this site and working to develop revolutionary consciousness by any means necessary, this site being one of those means.”

Jonnystar,

If you really want to go forward and develop the revolutionary consciousness by any mean necessary you have to transend the PC gods. When a person of science put forth a theory that questioned the religous teachings of the time, in order to hold on to their power the church would label the seeker of truth a heretic. What better way to silence ones critics, then by calling them a heretic and thier questions or statments heresy?

Here we are these many years later and reasoned debate is being thrown aside by calling each other racist! bigot! tards!! etc… Lets take away the backward superstition, FUCK is just a four letter word, SHIT isn’t going to condem your soul to hell, ASSHOLE isn’t anymore or any less disgusting than APPLE, NIGGER is just another word, CRACKER, WHITEY, JEW, MO, RACIST!!!!!!!!!!

So what if Vanz used the word NIGGER, its just a word, Who Cares if F Spencer used the work TARDS, lets look past that, even past who is saying it, and lets look at what they are saying NIGGER this and NIGGER that its just noise WHITEBOY!!!

Join with us, liberate yourselves take back reasoned debate, show your support, post a comment with the words NIGGER, ASSHOLE WHITEBREAD CHICKEN SHIT any other “forbbiden words” people don’t want you to speak, lets put it all out there so we can see how silly we are to get emotional over silly little words,

TAKE BACK REASONED DEBATE BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, YOU CRACKER, NIGGER, BITCHES!!!!!!! JOIN US!!!!!!

I think I already answered you question, but let me try again. I don’t think we have a housing shortage in Bermuda, I think we have a lack of affordable housing for some people. For example, when I was a younger, if I or my peers were single mothers, which I was, rather than move into our own apartments, we stayed with our parents in the family home. Today, that rarely happens. One of the reasons that we stayed in the family home was because we could not afford to live in our own apartments. Today, everyone wants to have their own apartment, even if they cannot afford the rents.

Another thing, back in my day, when people got married, they lived with their family until they saved up enough money to buy their own home, or in some instances they would be building their homes while still living with family members. Most of my peers did this, hence they are now home-owners, and in many cases home-owners without mortages.

If you travel around Bermuda you will see hundreds of empty condominiums, so as I said, we don’t have a shortage of housing, we have a lack of affordable housing.

Do I think the government should be selling property to non-Bermudians? I think what you want me to say is no. However, I do not consider give long-term leases to non-Bermudian entities as selling property. I also do not consider tourists buying fractional ownership into those properties which have been leased by the Bermuda government as “selling property” to foreigners.

Maybe you want to cite a specific example of the Government selling property to non-Bermudians, other than the lease at the Club Med site.

If you travel around Bermuda you will see hundreds of empty condominiums, so as I said, we don’t have a shortage of housing, we have a lack of affordable housing.

I agree completely which is why it causes me great concern that the government is taking the people’s land and selling to to foreigners, regardless of the location.

I also do not consider tourists buying fractional ownership into those properties which have been leased by the Bermuda government as “selling property” to foreigners

That’s the key point Mrs. Furbert, it is an outright sale. Government can’t lease land to developers who will in turn develop same to sell as fractional ownerships. You can’t sell what you don’t own and a leasehold is not outright ownership so government must, in fact, transfer title in order for fractional ownerships to be sold.

Once sold, this land is permanently removed from the public land stock. Big difference (from even a 200+ year lease).

Martin & 32n64w, please don’t take my comments out of context. But tell me, do you see a lot of empty condos around Bermuda? Who built them? Certainly not the Government? Who were the intended occupants? Certainly not 30% poor or near poor that the Leader of the Opposition continues to talk about, although that figure is now changed.

32n64w, you keep talking about the land that the government is taking and selling to foreigners. You must be living in a time warp – that happened long ago when they took that property from people who owned property in Tuckers Town. Did you see the front page of today’s Royal Gazette?

“That’s the key point Mrs. Furbert, it is an outright sale. Government can’t lease land to developers who will in turn develop same to sell as fractional ownerships. You can’t sell what you don’t own and a leasehold is not outright ownership so government must, in fact, transfer title in order for fractional ownerships to be sold.” – That’s all semantics. Are you trying to say that the PLP should undo all of the wrong that the UBP did. Why is fractional ownership such a problem for you? Do you have a company that is interested in developing Tuckers Point, Club Med, Newstead, etc. etc.? Or better still, did you have a plan to develop those properties for poor Bermudians?

I’m not a lawyer, but as I see it, a lease is a lease. No, you and I won’t be around to see the property returned to Bermudians, but neither were you around when the property at Tuckers Point was taken from Bermudians. If you’re so concerned about that, why weren’t you at the event yesterday?

32n64w, you keep talking about the land that the government is taking and selling to foreigners. You must be living in a time warp – that happened long ago when they took that property from people who owned property in Tuckers Town.

– And it’s happening again in the 21st century, this time under the PLP’s watch. It’s starting with Club Med and continuing with Coco Reef and eventually Morgan’s Point will be the next victim. If it was wrong then it’s wrong now.

Are you trying to say that the PLP should undo all of the wrong that the UBP did

– What wrong “that the UBP did” are you referring to? If you’re attempting to draw a parallel between the UBP and the picture on the front page of today’s paper your analogy is both disingenuous and misleading. The UBP had as much to do with the land grab in Tucker’s Town as the PLP did. I appreciate you’re a believer in facts, not innuendo, so with that in mind I invite you to explain how a party that wasn’t formed until decades after can take the blame for the mistakes of others.

That’s all semantics. Why is fractional ownership such a problem for you?

– No, it’s not. Because, in this circumstance, it’s the wholesale and outright disposition of the people’s land. Our land. Yours, mine and every other Bermudian. Once it’s gone it’s gone.

Do you have a company that is interested in developing Tuckers Point, Club Med, Newstead, etc. etc.?

– No. Those properties have nothing to do with this as my concerns rest entirely with this government’s decision to put politics ahead of the people by selling the people’s land for short term political gain to the detriment of our collective, long term benefits (i.e. to preserve as much land as possible for the people of Bermuda).

Or better still, did you have a plan to develop those properties for poor Bermudians?

– Yes I do, however, this government has chosen to super cede the interests of poor Bermudians with those of wealthy foreigners – who will almost certainly already have a home elsewhere. This is the hypocrisy of it all; another example of why regular Bermudian folk consider the PLP to have adopted an elitist attitude.

I’m not a lawyer, but as I see it, a lease is a lease.

– Well, I’m sure you know a couple of lawyers and can ask them to explain this matter to you better than I can. However, it doesn’t take a legal degree to understand that if you rent an apartment from your landlord you have no legal right to sell that apartment to a 3rd party. That can only be done by the owner via a sale and the Park Hyatt Act doesn’t mention fractional rentals.

No, you and I won’t be around to see the property returned to Bermudians, but neither were you around when the property at Tuckers Point was taken from Bermudians.

– You still seem to be of the opinion that ALL of the land will be returned to Bermudians. It won’t. Those parts which are reserved for fractional ownerships will NEVER return as they will be SOLD.

If you’re so concerned about that, why weren’t you at the event yesterday?

– Because I’m here today and I’m talking about what can be done NOW to avoid a repeat of the past.

You’re right, and nothing can put that sordid episode in Bermuda’s history right. Today’s ‘whites’ (believe it or not) are painfully aware of how many of our race have behaved historically, and we ain’t proud of it, believe me.

No apology can put it behind us.

You often hear white people (and some blacks) using the phrase, “we need to move on”. The phrase suggests that “we should forget”; in fact it doesn’t mean that at all. All that the phrase means is that we are where we are, we can’t change history even though we might like to, but at the same time we can’t stand still.

We have two choices in life as I see it, whether as individuals or as a society. We can ‘go forward’ or we can ‘go backwards’. Standing still is not an option, because if we try to do that, the rest of the world overtakes us and passes us by, and that – I would suggest – is a recipe for disaster – economically, socially et al.

So somehow, we need to find a dialogue that allows us to move forward, without this constant pain, recrimination, racist attacks from all sides and all the other destructive aspects we see daily.

I can understand ‘it’s our turn now’. The problem is that as we are seeing, ‘what goes around really does come around’, and the problem with that is that if we are not careful, it will come around again with yet further bitterness and recrimination.

Can somebody please tell me about the land acquisitions that took place in the Tuckers Town area? To the best of my knowledge the owners of the former land/houses were paid at (and in some cases above) market prices for their properties but that’s all I really know. I seem to remember watching something on TV about this but can’t really remember the nitty gritty about the show. So can somebody tell me when this happened, if it happened anywhere else in Bermuda (I heard the land the old Sonesta hotel is on was ‘taken’ in much the same way), the reasons given at the time of the ‘takings’ and what reasons you think were really behind these moves (from a today point of view). Sorry for so many questions, but you have to ask them if you want to learn!

Hi Guys,
I don’t yet know enough Bermudian history so the following posts may completely trash what I say, but I still want to make a wild guess…
Maybe, as Iceman says, folks were offered good money for their houses. That’s never the point, though… These were people’s homes, and may have been for several generations, and that sense of home and community doesn’t have a price tag on it.
This is my guess at what happened because it STILL happens here in the UK when someone wants to build a new football stadium – the Big Man says “here’s a pile of money, now SHIFT!”.

Dealing with what’s happening now, however… If what 32n64w argues is true, Ms. Furbert has made a very good point – “tell me what we, the people, can do to change this”…
What do you think? Get organised? Get someone to create a legal document showing how this land IS actually being sold permanently? No one is going to want to see that happen regardless of party/people affiliation…

A major issue for this government is both their perceived and actual unwillingness to engage stakeholders to participate in the government decision making process. The Ministry of Finance usually does a good job of circulating draft legislation and policy pronouncements for comment well in advance, however, other ministries/departments (Immigration and the Park Hyatt Act are both good recent examples) routinely ignore opportunities for public/industry consultation.

If the government really wants to engage the island in the democratic process they should, at a minimum, establish a bi-partisan committee to review pending legislation as well as publish same on the gov.bm web portal. That way non one can be wrongly blamed/accused for pushing legislation through the House without sufficient consultation.

Why don’t you make those suggestions yourself to the Tourism Minister. He is very approachable. You can either make an appointment with him by calling the Cabinet Office (292-5501)or you can e-mail him at ebrown@gov.bm. Because I don’t have a problem with fractional ownership, I won’t push for its elimination. However, if it was something that I believed needed to be changed, I would certainly advocate on your behalf. As I understand it, fractional ownership is the way tourism is going these days.

This is a tricky one. Tourism developments worldwide are going the way of fractional for financing because hotels have become so costly to construct and finance. 32n64w is absolutely right that the sales are freehold not leasehold though, which creates a dilemma.

Ultimately I think we should support this model to a reasonable extent for land already zoned as tourism. That is why I am in favour with the old Club Med re-development (but I don’t like the Golf Course giveaway), The Reefs, Newstead etc. but not particularly with Southlands/Morgans Point as those are being rezoned to tourism.

These issues aren’t so simple and I think the question is whether government is striking the right balance versus an outright rejection of fractionals. The fractional owners are tourists after all, potentially better ones as they are wealthy and would be repeat visitors.

Regarding the Tuckers Town “land grab”, and the myths associated with it.

Not everyone who was dispossessed was black.
Not everyone was paid for their property, either at all or fairly.
Not everyone had their property taken from them either. Most were paid fairly, though.
Not everyone ended up worse off.

And yes, my family lost property too. No, we didn’t get a penny for it either. You can see the ruin at the entrance to the staff dormitories at Shark Hole Hill. Unless you have this in your family history, you’re not qualified to talk about it. But, do I want money now? NO! Better to prevent injustices now than seek to redress injustices of the past. All the people involved are long dead, no point in rehashing things.

Fractionals aren’t the problem. Multi-million dollar corporations getting huge tax breaks to build these fractionals to sell to the already wealthy is the problem. Where’s the tax break for us small business owners?

We the grass roots peoples of Bermuda have been taken advantage of for long enuff. One thing is clear, the 2 party system has failed its people. And the so called labor party has failed to clean up the system. They have been seduced by it….absolute power corrupts absolutly.
The options are now to Get rid of the westminster system and introduce a peoples government of elected parish reps elected by the people of each parish..no political parties..(This is for the people who claim to be looking for solutions) or watch as the country very slowly crumbles into crime poverty and lawlessness. The writing has been on the wall for 40plus yrs now, GREED, CORRUPTION, ELETISIM, and CLASS DISTINCTION.
It is time for the working class to stand up and by any means nessicary bring a wake up call to ALL of bdas out of touch politicians.
If not… fine…..OUR WARRIOR YOUTH WILL EVENTUALLY STEP UP TO TAKE OUT ALL OF THE ELDERS WHO HAVE SOLD US OUT FOR SOMETHING AS FLEETING AS MONEY. MY granny used to say …If u cant hear u will feel….and u will feel the bullets!

If there had been computers around 40 years ago I would have been willing to bet my bottom dollar that “The Son of Obatala” copied and pasted that statement and is using it today. Maybe he just photocopied and is retyping it.

Whats ya fucking point old woman (LFurbert)?
History will look back at you and your peers as traitors to the cause of forward progression of the working classs in Bermuda.
Your current stance to protect ya precious party reputation, and spin every blaitant action of corruption spits in the faces of all who were marchin for de back movement in de 70s. and helped form what you poorly claim to represent and hold dead.
Tell me this Ms Mouth all mighty….when u take the black power adjenda back from when u lot were marchin, and apply that to what has been accomplished by the plp to bring fourth political, economic, n social changes, the job we votes ya asses in to do in the first place, how many things have been done? What have u lot accomplished to usher in from that list from ya marching days? Whats stopping you from doing what u said u was gonna do? Certainly not we the people.
The problem is old people like you….u lot made a buncha noise bout what u would do if elected to change bermuda, and todate your fuck ups outweight your accomplishments. And I mean the real accomplishments connected to the adjenda of creating political, economic, and social change, not the bullshit list of mere house keeping chores that u lot call accomplishments. YOu lot the civil rights marchers who now happen to be in positions and now ya not the hungery any more are u? Lifes ok now that u makin what u think is big bucks, ya atitude now is… fuck the struggle now… ive got mines now… type of people. Well Fuck all of you who have that mindset and are in power. We male and female warriors of Bermuda will have our way because we are the majority…ya days are numbered, n you lot know it…thats why so much of our money is disapearing from the public purse….its a snatch all u can while u can.
We see ya husstle from a mile away….n its not even good game. When all the poor old folks who you have used, die off…..then all ull have left is us to deal with, and we aint forgiving or forgetting shit! Ya time is comming.
If I did copy it the source was from one of ya many peers who are disgusted by you, and people like you in your party….the spineless yes men… glory hounds and the like who have their own hidden person economic adjenda.
You ALL will be dealt with. Anything else u gotta say is fallin on deaf ears….fuck de bullshit!

Damm typos…..lol…that was hold “dear” not hold dead…..and further more

Our westminster system is a flop….people older than I have been sayin it for over 40yrs….we voted plp in…they got rich n switched…the system still remains the same except run by former labour people who happen to be black. And they all claiming the whites still have all the economic controls…but yet they still havent done anything really meaningful to force real change via legislation.
WE dont really give a crap bout brown. plp or ubp. We want a system of government that will be made up and run by the people, so that the peoples interests are handled, not the interests of a party and its suckups.
So the big question…what do Bermudians who see through all the bullshit do to change this system from the Westminster to a government of the people without having to go indipendent, under an out dated, corrupt system that we have now.
Other nations have made the move…western european..etc etc..they have gone back to no political parties and a government made of up elected persons from each district parish or whatever. These indipendents do the bidding of the people in each parish, and follow a national adjenda set out by the people.

BERMUDIANS……I dont know about u all but from what I can see the world is changing rapdily, we have much much bigger fish to fry then to be dealing with all this internal political fuckery. There are Nationalistic issues that need to be delt with that will effect our nations very existance soon, and we here wasting time dealing with all this crap? Are we a mature enuff nation to step up and demand a system change for our governance, and disban political party system. That is the main root of all our problems.

I have been enjoying the illustration of many of the points that my original post was written to address. I’m not sure whether or not to be amused by much of the irony.

I have no intentions of editing arguments, but I would once again like to state that outright personal attacks are not welcome here and if they continue I will have to take actions I have so far been avoiding (such as comment moderation).