I don't remember reading or hearing that his body was leaning or sat up. Maybe I just assumed it was laying on the garage floor with towels around the head area. ???

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YEah i think it had been or possibly early on according to SS, they moved him off the car maybe? That was the few feet?

Since SD hair (as far as we know) was in RD's hand, do we think maybe the perp had him in a choke hold with cord or wire and he was trying to get to SD from that position and they knocked her out?

I dont know how an autopsy can indicate a strangulation, I know about drowning, now we know about GS or Bludeoning clues

I can see that playing out though, otherwise one trying to wrangle him and other taking her would be a struggle and no struggle occurred in garage, maybe that's why we can't decide or figure out if it was a Gunshot, it was neither that or bludgeoning but strangulation by cord or wire........leaving the line where to cut just below the cord mark which happens to be along the collar of the shirt

If so, that would indicate for SURE that this was intended for shock factor or even bludgeoning but according to the reports, no blood was in the trachea or lungs which indicates usually either of these

SO one son was on drugs like some of you said before, maybe another had issues too.... one son has been spokesperson who refused to go on tv or be recorded......made his brother do the televised interview ....maybe it was drugs and cartel and laundering by one.....and everyone knows and keeping mouth shut...........maybe the CHILDREN are the PRIVATE ONES instead of parents.......or maybe ALL of them cuz no one likes their dirty laundry aired

I"ve had it for a year almost! LOL
been meaning to post it.........tweek it Stele.......see if I got it right

YW!

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Well in my fuzzy mind I pictured him longways between the cars, but maybe that was related to Foxfire, et. al. and the east-west orientation. Maybe related to the cult discussion from way back?
So long ago. What a shame.

OK, well it's been a while since I did it but they placed the head where that is on the drawing IIRC, behind the cars so his head was facing out or sidways I imagine> I got the info from teh podcast and I dont think they were exact specific....You could be right and there was talk about east west facing but I think IIRC he was not (IIRC SS was also or someone was wondering about an easterly cult placement of the body)

OK, well it's been a while since I did it but they placed the head where that is on the drawing IIRC, behind the cars so his head was facing out or sidways I imagine> I got the info from teh podcast and I dont think they were exact specific....You could be right and there was talk about east west facing but I think IIRC he was not (IIRC SS was also or someone was wondering about an easterly cult placement of the body)

SO to find the easterly direction on their house on maps

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Looks like the house was facing northerly, maybe NNW.....if his head was pointing towards garage doors or to the left as I have it on the maps, then its not easterly so could be either way but and placing the head behind the cars kind of indicates the head was either of the two directions NNW or WEST as shown and head could be behind either car....I dont think it specified........I was trying to figure out how they moved him and got blood drag marks from his foot adn WHY they moved him, so it appears was moved AFTER the beheading in order to get blood on his foot enough to drag it.........but wondering how much blood was near the feet area anyway..........maybe its unimportant but bugging mehttps://www.google.com/maps/place/147+Carolyn+Dr/@33.3979119,-83.2365137,94m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x88f6ed24ef737ccb:0x56318eac8c11e1ec!4b1!8m2!3d33.3979619!4d-83.2364855

OK, well it's been a while since I did it but they placed the head where that is on the drawing IIRC, behind the cars so his head was facing out or sidways I imagine> I got the info from teh podcast and I dont think they were exact specific....You could be right and there was talk about east west facing but I think IIRC he was not (IIRC SS was also or someone was wondering about an easterly cult placement of the body)

Then I think about the way SD was found and her being under the water seemed such an amateur job. Unless they intended for her to be found eventually. Seemed like an afterthought and not enough weight, poorly secured, etc.
With that and the clean removal of RD's head it said more hunter/ farmer / outdoors-man than medical/ or professional hitman to me.
But JMO

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And if one of the killers had a medical background and planned this... Wouldn't he bring the necessary tools? Or maybe decapitation wasn't planned? I'm obviously wishy-washy. Lol

I've always believed disposal of SDs body was just quickest/deepest way to dispose.... The killer spent too much time on decapitation and clean-up , and so they had to hussle away. Weighting the body and heaving it into deep water was easy and quick. The killers were (by this point) in quiet, get-away mode.

And if one of the killers had a medical background and planned this... Wouldn't he bring the necessary tools? Or maybe decapitation wasn't planned? I'm obviously wishy-washy. Lol

I've always believed disposal of SDs body was just quickest/deepest way to dispose.... The killer spent too much time on decapitation and clean-up , and so they had to hussle away. Weighting the body and heaving it into deep water was easy and quick. The killers were (by this point) in quiet, get-away mode.

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I would believe they would have brought tools, probably did anyway

Dont know if a knife was missing from house in a butcher block knife holder or scabbard......

But I have to disagree, quickest and easiest was to leave her there too but that might implicate the family but her being gone slowed things down in finding a motive along with the decapitation

Beheading him was also not easiest......so who wanted him to be found and by whom?

Here's a thought I just had. There's been mention of garage doors and I just thought about how easy it is to open someones garage door those codes aren't tough to program into another remote.. JUST A THOUGHT

Here's a thought I just had. There's been mention of garage doors and I just thought about how easy it is to open someones garage door those codes aren't tough to program into another remote.. JUST A THOUGHT

Here's a thought I just had. There's been mention of garage doors and I just thought about how easy it is to open someones garage door those codes aren't tough to program into another remote.. JUST A THOUGHT

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OMG true that, I havent had a garage in 23 years! LOL.........country house in the sticks..............but my aunt had a coded opener and she gave the code to way too many. I worried she was gonna get murdered in her bed one day...........

Yes I've heard of people driving down roads using a garage door opener and opening peoples garages too

For some reason, the screened porch door to kitchen ( i think the door) was unlocked........that is how the friend/neighbors got in

Thinking on the comments about him being staged, maybe garage was just the best hidden location on the property to do this (why, still dont know) but if he was just lying down between the cars, how is that staged?

If no friends and family was out of state (if not involved) then the ony way to be discovered was to come in screen porch door to kitchen

I still just think it was all created for confusion so the killer isnt caught

WHo is so intent and creative and so masterly planned this to go undetected ??

OR DO we think it was NOT master planned and they got lucky?

Do we think their friends or family would want to be detected??? Dont think so

ANd, the mob isnt going to carry her away, so there goes my cartel family involved drugs and message theory LOL

I jsut keep going back to ONE thing

Unless it's a friend who wanted them dead and wanted desperately not to be caught because of their status in life, couldnt afford to be

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results..............Insanity............we need more info

Back door unlocked might be because 1 went through the garage and opened the back door for the other(s) this does explain why it costs more for insurance when you have a garage i'm sure housing a vehicle in there is part but I know when my parents added a garage onto their house I asked why there wasn't a door to the house and my father said it would cost more on insurance

Back door unlocked might be because 1 went through the garage and opened the back door for the other(s) this does explain why it costs more for insurance when you have a garage i'm sure housing a vehicle in there is part but I know when my parents added a garage onto their house I asked why there wasn't a door to the house and my father said it would cost more on insurance

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I know the doors and closets (hence closet door) makes insurance go up, didnt know that about the garage and garage door and insurance or maybe it just makes the house have more under roof sq footage...it's not going outside really, IDK, interesting tho

At any rate, when we say the perps didnt go in the house............I guess that doesnt mean AT ALL ......we just know htere was no tussle in the house but there was not one in garage either..

I know there was no apparent tussle in the house but they were older so maybe both came through the kitchen, not just one, there would have been some sort of skirmish atleast, had to be both

She or they may have been on the porch having coffee (was the coffee on?) or whatever

OMG you know what.........that garage door is RIGHT beside that screened porch.........geeesh! In my mind I keep picturing the interior of the house, the kitchen and back deck and I keep thinking the garage is on the other side of the house

ITS NOT, the garage door leads right into the kitchen next to the pantry

If you stand in the driveway as you know, you can almost touch the screen door to the porch and garage door at the same time

OK, so maybe only ONE DID go into the house from screen porch to garage

How was one person going to keep both of them under control, we dont know if RD was in bed or if he was up at the time

NO< they both came in and the D's KNEW whoever came up , they knew them well.

THere was NO SKIRMISH in the house OR even inside the garage!

THey knew them WELL!

And unless someone had the code to the garage, no one came in the garage from outside and if so knew the D's well but, the D's surely knew them and they let them in and they came in the house very briefly, accosting one of both soon thereafter and leading them from kitchen porch door to garage door not 20' away and they did NOT open the garage door to let anyone else in IN CASE someone tried to make a run for it

but the only skirmish is likely when they nabbed SD and it all came to a head and they realized what was happening, wrapping the cord or wire around RD's throat to keep him in line so he couldnt fight back

WHY were his hands bloodied and bruised? Was it the BACKS of the hands? If so he was probalby grabbing for her first, the reason for the hair in his hand and someone was hitting hard at his hands to get him away........or even he grabbing at a cord around his throat

Yeah I'd like to hear a coroner or pathologist give s us the tale tale signs on strangulation with cord/wire and how you might know (without a head or line to see that it happened).......like with bludgeoning there are tale tale signs of blood in trachea, which there was not on RD............I dont think a gun would have stopped him from helping SHirley and getting in a skirmish with the perps and due to the noise, not wanting anyone to hear, CLEARLY he tried to get her from the perp but a cord around the throat, that'll slow you done or cut your throat.......AND I had mentioned WAAYY back in the threads that maybe he was strangled so hard it did or almost did decapitate and so could that be the reason for the whole decapitation? Get the cord untangled? IDK

I dont remember if the autopsy said that the back of hands or palms were bloodied and bruised, but the same tire tool or hammer that killed SD is probalby what was used to beat his hands to the condition they were in when he was trying to save SD............Going to look up coroners reports on strangulation and signs besides the obvious.......

WHy would they take his head if they strangled him? He BIT them and their DNA was in his mouth?

And so they just got "lucky" for lack of a better term, that this beheading loooked so much more like something it was not and confused the investigation further

Still doesnt explain why they took her away

YES IT DOES, becuase if both had been in the garage it would have loooked like family staged it

I know the doors and closets (hence closet door) makes insurance go up, didnt know that about the garage and garage door and insurance or maybe it just makes the house have more under roof sq footage...it's not going outside really, IDK, interesting tho

At any rate, when we say the perps didnt go in the house............I guess that doesnt mean AT ALL ......we just know htere was no tussle in the house but there was not one in garage either..

I know there was no apparent tussle in the house but they were older so maybe both came through the kitchen, not just one, there would have been some sort of skirmish atleast, had to be both

She or they may have been on the porch having coffee (was the coffee on?) or whatever

OMG you know what.........that garage door is RIGHT beside that screened porch.........geeesh! In my mind I keep picturing the interior of the house, the kitchen and back deck and I keep thinking the garage is on the other side of the house

ITS NOT, the garage door leads right into the kitchen next to the pantry

If you stand in the driveway as you know, you can almost touch the screen door to the porch and garage door at the same time

OK, so maybe only ONE DID go into the house from screen porch to garage

How was one person going to keep both of them under control, we dont know if RD was in bed or if he was up at the time

NO< they both came in and the D's KNEW whoever came up , they knew them well.

THere was NO SKIRMISH in the house OR even inside the garage!

THey knew them WELL!

And unless someone had the code to the garage, no one came in the garage from outside and if so knew the D's well but, the D's surely knew them and they let them in and they came in the house very briefly, accosting one of both soon thereafter and leading them from kitchen porch door to garage door not 20' away and they did NOT open the garage door to let anyone else in IN CASE someone tried to make a run for it

but the only skirmish is likely when they nabbed SD and it all came to a head and they realized what was happening, wrapping the cord or wire around RD's throat to keep him in line so he couldnt fight back

WHY were his hands bloodied and bruised? Was it the BACKS of the hands? If so he was probalby grabbing for her first, the reason for the hair in his hand and someone was hitting hard at his hands to get him away........or even he grabbing at a cord around his throat

Yeah I'd like to hear a coroner or pathologist give s us the tale tale signs on strangulation with cord/wire and how you might know (without a head or line to see that it happened).......like with bludgeoning there are tale tale signs of blood in trachea, which there was not on RD............I dont think a gun would have stopped him from helping SHirley and getting in a skirmish with the perps and due to the noise, not wanting anyone to hear, CLEARLY he tried to get her from the perp but a cord around the throat, that'll slow you done or cut your throat.......AND I had mentioned WAAYY back in the threads that maybe he was strangled so hard it did or almost did decapitate and so could that be the reason for the whole decapitation? Get the cord untangled? IDK

If the force were applied over a very narrow surface area -- a clothesline ligature as opposed to a broad belt for example -- then much less force would be necessary

The U.S. Army trains “close-range combatives” to use strangulation as a mechanism of lethal force.[32] Medical resuscitation, and organ procurement procedures, work against the pathologist’s ability to detect fatal homicidal neck injury

A dissection for heart donation can totally obliterate all evidence of injury by manual strangulation. Donation of corneas will obscure observation of petechia in the eyes. The prosecutor is then dependent on the organ procurement team to recognize subtle injuries before they are obscured by the procedure. Few organ procurement technicians or physicians will have any experience whatsoever testifying in murder trials.

So basically if he was strangled the pathologist/coroner and SS MISSED it if RD was an organ donor

AND.......without the head it's impossible to know but says every bruise and scrape on the body would help to indicate a strangulation

Im sure they checked under his fingernails????

His hands were bloody and bruised.........was it from being hit or was it from some Petacheia I read about too from strangulation but doenst alway occur except around the eyes, those red dot marks kids get when having temper trantrums is what came to mind LOL

I dont remember if the autopsy said that the back of hands or palms were bloodied and bruised, but the same tire tool or hammer that killed SD is probalby what was used to beat his hands to the condition they were in when he was trying to save SD............Going to look up coroners reports on strangulation and signs besides the obvious.......

WHy would they take his head if they strangled him? He BIT them and their DNA was in his mouth?

And so they just got "lucky" for lack of a better term, that this beheading loooked so much more like something it was not and confused the investigation further

Still doesnt explain why they took her away

YES IT DOES, becuase if both had been in the garage it would have loooked like family staged it