Is it possible that the AntiChrist could be a leader in Israel? Did you know that Israel elected their 10th President in 2014, and it is a 7 year term?

If you think about it, the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, and the Anti Christ is going to claim to be Messiah.... (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) Wouldn't he then need to be a Jew? Who is the most powerful Jew in the World? Who has the power and ability to even sign a peace covenant? Is it Netanyahu?

Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it,and it had ten horns.8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Could the little horn be the Prime Minister? Since, technically the President has more power.

I looked it up and wouldn't you know... Israel elected their 10th President in 2014.

The President of the State of Israel is the head of state of Israel. The position is largely a ceremonial figurehead role, with executive power effectively being exercised by the prime minister. The current president is Reuven Rivlin, who took office on 24 July 2014. Presidents are elected by the Knesset for a seven-year term and are limited to a single term.

Notice that it's a 7 year term. Could that be the 7 year covenant? Could we be in the midst of it right now?I'm pretty sure that the Prime Minister position is also a 7 year term.

Zechariah 11:15 calls him the "Worthless Shepherd"He can't be their shepherd if he's not a Jew.

15 And the Lord said to me, “Next, take for yourself the implements of a foolish shepherd. 16 For indeed I will raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for those who are cut off, nor seek the young, nor heal those that are broken, nor feed those that still stand. But he will eat the flesh of the fat and tear their hooves in pieces.

17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,Who leaves the flock!A sword shall be against his armAnd against his right eye;His arm shall completely wither,And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

I watched his speech at the UN the other day, I was glad to hear him speak so boldly but at the same time I wondered, did he seem a little overly confident? here's some quotes from his speech:

The UN, begun as a moral force, has become a moral farce. So when it comes to Israel at the UN, you’d probably think nothing will ever change, right? Well think again. You see, everything will change and a lot sooner than you think. The change will happen in this hall, because back home, your governments are rapidly changing their attitudes towards Israel. And sooner or later, that’s going to change the way you vote on Israel at the UN....

I believe the day is not far off when Israel will be able to rely on many, many countries to stand with us at the UN. Slowly but surely, the days when UN ambassadors reflexively condemn Israel, those days are coming to an end....

I have one message for you today: Lay down your arms. The war against Israel at the UN is over. Perhaps some of you don’t know it yet, but I am confident that one day in the not too distant future you will also get the message from your president or from your prime minister informing you that the war against Israel at the United Nations has ended. Yes, I know, there might be a storm before the calm. I know there is talk about ganging up on Israel at the UN later this year. Given its history of hostility towards Israel, does anyone really believe that Israel will let the UN determine our security and our vital national interests?...

Are the gays hanging from cranes in Iran helped by your denigration of Israel? That same Israel where gays march proudly in our streets and serve in our parliament, including I’m proud to say in my own Likud party....

The sooner the UN’s obsession with Israel ends, the better. The better for Israel, the better for your countries, the better for the UN itself.

Reuven Rivlin comes across as more focused on Israel at this time than the world...Im just not sure I can get on this page with you, EC. ....I have a friend who has done all this research on the theory that the a/c hails from Israel....she talked about people in Israel who have 6 fingers and toes and some other stuff....but I never was compelled enough by her conversations to ever look into this.....I'm still not really compelled. fwiw.

Love you sis, and I SINCERELY appreciate your efforts and thinking out loud....we all do it....and I am certainly not posting a good discussion or talking points response to your post.....because I am unable at this time and like I said, the theory hasn't really settled well with me from the beginning (all scriptures considered, as he would certainly have a long list of criteria to meet to fulfill scriptural admonitions....and I don't think I see it).....

8 In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. 2 In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, andin its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

The Interpretation of the Vision

15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”

17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The [b]shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nationbut will not have the same power.

23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

27 I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.................

Daniel 11New International Version (NIV)

11 1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.)

The Kings of the South and the North

2 “Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. 4 After he has arisen, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others.

SKIP

21 “He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. 22 Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed. 23 After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power. 24 When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time.

25 “With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South. The king of the South will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to stand because of the plots devised against him. 26 Those who eat from the king’s provisions will try to destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall in battle. 27 The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time. 28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his own country.

29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.[d]

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

............

Daniel 8 and 11 go hand in hand and even though many have read these two chapters over and over, most fail to put the two together. Here is what is being shown to Daniel in both these visions:

1. Rise of Persia then Greece2. Greece overtakes Persia and its 1st king dies3. Greek kingdom is split into 4 pieces4. From one of the 4 comes the final Anti-Christ5. He starts small and grows in power6. He acts deceitfully7. He attacks and invades when people feel secure8. He is from the north kingdom of Greece.9. He will abolish daily sacrifice and bring down the temple10. He will come to an end

Israel was part of the southern Greek kingdom of Ptolomy. So no, the AC cannot come from Israel or be a Israeli leader. The AC comes from one of the 3 kingdoms that were to the north of Israel. Seleucid, Lysimachus, Cassander. A simple opening of the history books tells us that it was the Seleucid kingdom that generationally warred against the southern Ptolomy (as indicated by the entirety of Daniel 11). So the AC comes from the Seleucid kingdom. Most specifically (as stated in Daniel 8) from the Northwest of Israel. That would put the AC in Turkey.

Many think Daniel 8 refers to Antiochus, but (as stated in Daniel 8) were the starry host of heaven cast down during his time? No. The only casting down to earth of satan and his demons occurs during the final tribulation. The Antichrist is Ancient Greek. Today we would call him a Turk.

Many also think Daniel 21-35 refers to Antiochus and is fulfilled while 36+ is about the AC. But as I underlined in vs21, Daniel 11:21 is the FINAL mention of succession. No more handing down or transfer of power after vs 21. The man who begins 21 is the same man of 35 and comes to his end at 45. There should NOT be a chapter separation between 35 and 36 as it causes confusion.

Ancestrally could he be a jew? maybe. Daniel 11 states he does not worship the God (capitalized in the KJV meaning the Judeo-Christian God) of his fathers. So ancestrally he is most likely Christian rather than Jew, since Christians dominated Asia minor and areas north of Israel, while the jews were mainly concentrated between the nile and Euphrates.

"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins

extravagantchristian wrote:Zechariah 11:15 calls him the "Worthless Shepherd"He can't be their shepherd if he's not a Jew.

Hi EC,Why do you feel that Zech 11:15 is speaking specifically of , or only an End of Days Antichrist?

The use of "A" foolish Shepard can be a reference to other than one single specific person I think.

And even if it did refer to One specific person, that person could better be described as "A Foolish Shepard" if he fulfills the prophetic role as the "False Prophet" rather than the Antichrist.

What I've just explained is a scenario where the antichrist himself need Not be a Jew, based on the requirement of the text in Zech 11:15.

The idea that the AC MUST be a Jew is based on texts such as you've mentioned...but they do not prove so.It would be wise to consider that the AC is not required by scripture to be Jewish, and leave open other ideas.

When it comes to shorttrib/prewrath, it doesn't rely or depend on if AC will be Jewish or not. The idea that he will come from among Muslims is more in keeping with scripture though I think.

As far as the 7 year deal...you know where I stand on that, but as I've said before...there could, and probably will be a decoy 7 year deal.....just to suit "ole slew foot's" agenda of deception.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

You may be right that the worthless Shepard scripture has nothing to do with the Antichrist. For me, the most convincing reason why he might be a Jew is because the Jews are still waiting for their messiah, and the Antichrist will claim to be messiah. I could be wrong but, it doesn't seem any more likely that he would would be Muslim.

The idea that he will come from among Muslims is more in keeping with scripture though I think.

I could be wrong but, it doesn't seem any more likely that he would would be Muslim.

This:

in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

and this:

four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation

We are talking about the old Greek empire here that split into four. There is only one nation to the Northwest of Israel which one moves Southeast to reach Israel that came from the Northern Kingdom mentioned in Chapter 11.

Turkey. And Turks are....

"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins

Well here's the thing, 1. Israel isn't going to be fooled by some Muslim messiah. 2. The leader of turkey has very little power in the grand scope of things, He's not going to have the power to confirm a major peace deal with Israel, or 2 state solution. He not going to have the power to control all the money in the world either. I would think the Antichrist would be someone more influential.

extravagantchristian wrote:Well here's the thing, 1. Israel isn't going to be fooled by some Muslim messiah. 2. The leader of turkey has very little power in the grand scope of things, He's not going to have the power to confirm a major peace deal with Israel, or 2 state solution. He not going to have the power to control all the money in the world either. I would think the Antichrist would be someone more influential.

1. The current leader of turkey just forced Israel into... how does Trump put it???... "A bad deal" in order to "normalize" relations after the flotilla incident.If the current leader of turkey can get Israel to take blame for things and accept bad deals, then why not a future Turkish leader?

2. Look at Turkey. It is located at the crossroads of the World. Africa, Asia and Europe all cross at turkey. If one read the geopolitics of that tri-continent they will tell you that the Turkish nation is instrumental in bridging the gap between Europe and Asia. I would say, that puts any leader of Turkey in a great position to bargain and hold power. Speaking of having power...

3. Did not the current leader of turkey have ALL of EUROPE BEGGING him and groveling at his feet to stop the flood of immigrants pouring into Europe from his nation. Did they not weep and whimper when he made a list of demands they had to meet if they wanted him to stop the flow? Btw he got 2billion euros for threatening them so...

If the current leader of turkey can have Europe shaking, then why not a future leader?

4. Point out where in the bible the AC controls the worlds money supply.

5. The mark for buying and selling is for conquered lands only. The left behind books had it kinda right, it will start in his immediate empire first, then move outward as his hordes rampage across nation after nation, city after city, town after town. The mark will come, after they have conquered your neighborhood not before.

6. The bible does not say that the covenant with many is specifically a peace deal nor is Israel directly named as part of it.

7. If memory serves correct, the bible does not state that the AC will claim to be the messiah of the jews, but rather provocatively places himself above all other gods and calls himself the messiah of his god. The bible also does not state the jews will worship him. His claim to messiah-ship does not take place (According to Daniel 11) until just before/during the event of the AoD. So how would the Jews know he is their long awaited messiah beforehand?

8. your right. They won't be fooled by a muslim messiah, which is why the bible states the jews will fight him till the very end, holding out in Jerusalem till Jesus rescues them.

Remember Daniel 11. He comes in the name of HIS god. Not... he comes in the name of God and then reveals his true god later. It will be heir apparent from the very beginning what religion this man is.............

Last but not least, it is not me you are doubting. It is Daniel 8 and 11 you are doubting. Read them. They go hand in hand. You may have all sorts of reason to believe the AC can't be muslim, but the Daniel clearly is pointing to Turkey. Daniel points to a middle eastern kingdom in Daniel 2 (statue) and Daniel 7 (4 beasts). John confirms in Revelation with the final beast consisting of the previous 3 beasts in Daniel 7.

"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins

kirthril wrote:5. The mark for buying and selling is for conquered lands only.

I'd like to see this proven with Scripture.

Daniel 11:22-45 paints us a picture of a world fighting against the AC almost from even before he commits the AoD. The west, is already fighting against him during his 2nd attempt at invading Egypt. The north and east come against him after his 3rd try and conquers Egypt. Other parts of Isaiah and Ezekiel also show that there are nations that fight against him.

Question: How can the AC implement the mark all over, if the nations are fighting him and wont adhere to him and his religion?

Answer is history.

1. Nazism and the Jews: Under the Nazis, Jews were forced to wear a yellow star. A type of "mark" or "Charagma" that Revelation refers to "imprint, stamp, seal, logo, branding".

Did Jews all over Europe just willfully put yellow stars on themselves? No, it was only after the Nazis conquered their nations, cities and towns, that they were forced.

2. More recent ISIS: Isis has demanded all muslims adhere to its brand of Islam or die. Isis, declaring its caliphate has also demanded all show bow down to allah and submit to him or die.

Did Shiites, Christians, yazidis, alawites and other sects cave in to ISIS and bow down to their demands? No, only once ISIS stormed in and took over their towns and cities did they become subject to the mandate.

3. Every empire and conquered lands: All across history people ONLY submit to the demands of outside empires AFTER being conquered or while under immediate threat of imminent attack. Not before. Even today, as America looses its grip, nations are no longer starting to cave to America's demands.

Revelation states, the AC goes forth conquering and to conquer, the fact that war immediately follows shows that nation all over refuse to submit to him even if he came in peace.

So how can he force his mark on everyone?

He must conquer them first. And that involves his teeming religious masses pouring out of that quadrant of the world to trample down and crush the nation of the earth.

As I stated, the left behind books had the right idea as well. In Left Behind, the AC began implementing his mark first in his own kingdom/region then spread it out to the others.

This is just logically how it works. You can't force someone to do something if they are fighting against you. You must first conquer and beat them into submission be for they acquiesce to your demand.......

Am I saying that America will be safe from the mark? No. south Africa? Far asia? Australia? Chile? Brazil? Canada? No. What I am saying is that, in this final World War, which will be a religious war, in which civil war will rage in every nation, there will be conquered areas "no-go zones" if you will upon which the people inside will be subject to the authority of the AC.......

Let me quote the current president of Turkey to show you how this trampling of the world will occur quickly and like a flood. How the mark will come eventually to all territories:

"The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..."

This is the civil war. Cities, towns with large muslim populations will be the first to be subjected to the mark. They will conquer spreading outward. Thus eventually the whole world will be forced to take the mark.......

There is nothing wrong with my statement in that the mark will be in conquered lands only. That is just logically how things work. You can't force people not under your control/authority to do what you want. And because Daniel 11 shows a world in which nations all over are fighting against him, this means that not everywhere will have the mark initially. He will have to take them by force.

"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins

kirthril wrote:There is nothing wrong with my statement in that the mark will be in conquered lands only. That is just logically how things work. You can't force people not under your control/authority to do what you want. And because Daniel 11 shows a world in which nations all over are fighting against him, this means that not everywhere will have the mark initially. He will have to take them by force.

Kirthril, you have become an excellent advocate for the islamic paradigm, importantly your understanding of Scripture and how you are able to interpret into today's language and meanings what is happening, and how it is happening. I really enjoy reading your thoughts.

I would like to add a few that I have been contemplating over some time recently. We heard for quite a while about islam being the religion of peace, but where is that being heard now ? Not so much anymore, as we are beginning to see the true nature of that religion/theocracy. On it's surface it resembles Judaism, but when you get into the meat of it, it becomes the opposite. We have been seeing this for some time in the manifestation of daesh in Syria and it's subsequent spread into other areas of the world. They are brutal, wild beasts of the Earth types, they care not about peace in their religion or lands, only control of the peoples they conquer. And yes, they have instituted the mark in their lands, and people can pay a tax to not convert, written in the Scriptures as to how that works. Yet the world does not accept for this version of islam to take over any part of the world, especially Syria, Israels next door neighbor. And we find ourselves in this present conflagration, with not much mention of the religion of peace any longer. So at this time it appears the fight is on, suggesting to me we have entered the present manifestation of the Second Rider of the Apocalypse, who with his great sword takes peace from the Earth. How long this goes on is impossible to say, yet we find we tired tired of it already. And when this becomes more wide spread we will enter the period of the Third rider, most definitely a sorrowful time for humanity.

Now consider the muslim immigration problem, and who it is that appears to be controlling it. Turkey's leader are, the EU is slow to pay to keep it under control, so we may expect this to come to a head, and see the release of the hordes once again, and with winter approaching the suffering will be horrible. Not to mention the existing immigration issues the EU faces for the people already there. This is a war, there is a muslim policy for forced emigration to conquer lands, and it is becoming a financial issue, heralding the approach of that particular Third rider. Something to think about, as time moves along.

While I am here I want to mention Turkeys deal with Israel to re establish relations. Turkey gets a humanitarian presence in Gaza out of this, and that my friends is the foot in the door Turkey has been seeking all along, with Jerusalem as it's final goal of conquest after much prinking of the present situation. How long before Jerusalem becomes a stumbling block for the world is yet to be seen, but this is the start of the issue. We will see more and more issues surrounding Turkeys presence there, and what a thorn in Israel's side this will become.

God Bless you

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

kirthril wrote:Question: How can the AC implement the mark all over, if the nations are fighting him and wont adhere to him and his religion?

kirthril wrote:Answer is history.

Great History lesson and analogy - however, how do you apply your "Theoretic History Lesson" - and attempt to incorporate Bible Prophecy into it and make it reconcile together?

I don't think that dog will hunt.......

As this is what you mentioned earlier:

kirthril wrote:5. The mark for buying and selling is for conquered lands only.

Let's take a look at what Scripture has to say about the "Mark":

Revelation 13:16-17 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) And he causesALL , the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17) and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

"According to History" mentioned or not - The Mark certainly doesn't appear to be "limited" to "Conquered Lands Only" according to the aforementioned passage of Scripture.

Mr Baldy wrote:16) And he causes ALL , the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17) and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Hi Mr. B.,Please consider this matter though. In the text you have quoted, it does not indicate How Long the Process will take to receive That Mark.The space of time is not mentioned..it may take only a matter of Days for some to receive it, and yet nearly all the way to the end of the 3.5 years for ALL the Others to receive it.

See my point?...both opinions could be true.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

shorttribber wrote:Hi Mr. B.,Please consider this matter though. In the text you have quoted, it does not indicate How Long the Process will take to receive That Mark.The space of time is not mentioned..it may take only a matter of Days for some to receive it, and yet nearly all the way to the end of the 3.5 years for ALL the Others to receive it.See my point?...both opinions could be true.

Yes, I see your point..............

However, the way that this message has been conveyed, it appears to support a certain "Theory" instead of properly applying the correct Biblical hermeneutics to the passages of Scripture. In other words, the timespan in which this particular application is applied is irrelevant.

To give you an example: As I've viewed the entire Islamic Paradigm as it relates to the coming Antichrist - it would "appear" as if the entire chapter of Daniel 11 is used when the verses prior to verse 36 have already been fulfilled by none other than Antiochus Epiphanes. Verses 36-45 relate to the coming Antichrist.

Guys like Walid Shoebat really scare me. They sell their masses of books in order to make money, and deceive - it's not to edify the Body of Christ. They tickle the ears of well meaning Christians with one hand, as they take their money with the other. Christians need to be careful. We need to have the ability to spot those who Deceive.

It never ceases to amaze me about people in general.

To give you an example: Shorty you and I can get up on a stage in a public arena having thousands of people and speak on a topic that is pure utter nonsense. Do you know that there will be a certain proportion of those who will believe the nonsense we spew our of our mouths? It's incredible! When people are gathered together they have a tendency to feed into the atmosphere, and other people around them. It relates to mind control - this was one of the ways Hitler was able to get folk to initially buy into his speeches, no matter what lies he told. And he understood it. People while in groups will laugh at things together that are not even funny. Or they will buy into the nonsense that Public Speakers say, because they are either too ignorant to do their own homework; too stubborn to think outside of the box; or just flat out looking for someone to control and manage every aspect of their entire lives, because they have no hope. This is the mind set of folk in the current World we live in today. How very UNFORTUNATE.

However, the way that this message has been conveyed, it appears to support a certain "Theory" instead of properly applying the correct Biblical hermeneutics to the passages of Scripture. In other words, the timespan in which this particular application is applied is irrelevant.

Mr B, show a little respect Brother. You don't have the answers either, no one does. And before you discount the islamic paradigm consider a thorough study, and not a flipping through the pages with your mind already made up. If we really get going here, considering the MoB, I will show you it may be possible to take ' the number of his name ', Revelation 13:17, and not lose our Salvation. Now I know that will get you going, so I will let it set for a while so you can try to figure out why it isn't possible. Your answer is already concrete in your mind, but you haven't considered the possibility of the real world and it's history, including today's events and how this might possibly be explained by the Scriptures.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Exit40 wrote:Mr B, show a little respect Brother. You don't have the answers either, no one does. And before you discount the islamic paradigm consider a thorough study, and not a flipping through the pages with your mind already made up. If we really get going here, considering the MoB, I will show you it may be possible to take ' the number of his name ', Revelation 13:17, and not lose our Salvation. Now I know that will get you going, so I will let it set for a while so you can try to figure out why it isn't possible. Your answer is already concrete in your mind, but you haven't considered the possibility of the real world and it's history, including today's events and how this might possibly be explained by the Scriptures.

Hey David,

May God bless you brother!

You are correct "no one has the answers" - at least not yet.

Speaking of "knowing the answers" I want you to know that it's very refreshing to learn that you have me all figured out, and through some sort of unknown osmosis type anomaly you have the presence of mind to understand what is "concrete" in my mind. Absolutely AMAZING

You both subscribe to a paradigm that is not far removed from each other in that you both are looking for a people group to call the fourth beast.

If however the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are fallen wicked heavenly hosts who can exercise dominion over the peoples of the earth who inhabit their respective dominions, then we will see the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 manifest themselves in the seas of people and rise up as it were from the sea of the people.

Now Alexandra the Great does not herald the beginning of the third beast nor does he begin the trampling of the sanctuary by the Gentiles as these two events happen after his death, around some 60 to 70 years later.

By having wicked heavenly hosts/fallen angels exercising their respective dominions over the peoples of the earth, it is possible to have visible the respective beasts in view since they first were observed by Daniel in his night vision right up and until this very time, today. Jeremiah 50 speaks of "two apparent Kings" of the North invading Babylon, i.e. the Land of the Chaldeans, in excess of 2,000 years apart.

By our "human logic" the two invasions of Babylon had to be led by two different apparent "earthly" kings from the north, however there is only one king of the north that instigated these two invasions of Babylon as both were led by the same fallen wicked heavenly host/angel manifesting in different people groups from different parts of the earth at the times of the respective invasions. Our logic demands that we identify key leaders over time who may be under the influence of the respective beast/wicked fallen heavenly host/angel and ascribe to that human leader all the attributes of that particular beast such that the respective beasts are locked to our historical past and are not therefore active, as such, today.

The fourth wicked beast has been continuously observable since around the 600 - 700 AD mark, within the people groups that have chosen to become adherents of the Islamic religion. A characteristic of this beasts is that there has been no dominate human identity who has exercised "kingship" over this beasts dominion since it became manifested/visible within the various people groups up and until this present time.

However, it is possible to see the ebb and flow of the exercised dominions of the four fallen wicked heavenly hosts/angels over time as different people groups chose to inhabit, for distinct periods of time, the respective dominions of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12.

In Daniel 7:11-12 we are told that one of the beasts is slain and the other three beasts lose their respective dominions and that they are given over for a season and a time to await their final punishment.

Yes we can look for the manifestations of the ten horns of Daniel 7, but unless you are looking for the "spiritual" manifestations of the beasts, we will be clutching at straws hoping that the people that we identify are the "bad" guys we are warned about within Biblical prophecy.

Somehow I thing our tradition of understanding who we believe the beasts of Daniel 7 are, is missleading and has led us down so many rabbit holes that we all must look rather silly to the four actual beasts of Daniel 7.

We should be thankful that God deals with these wicked fallen heavenly hosts/angels in heaven and imprisons them to await their final punishment at the end of the ages.

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:Hi Mr. B.,Please consider this matter though. In the text you have quoted, it does not indicate How Long the Process will take to receive That Mark.The space of time is not mentioned..it may take only a matter of Days for some to receive it, and yet nearly all the way to the end of the 3.5 years for ALL the Others to receive it.See my point?...both opinions could be true.Mr. B wrote: Yes, I see your point..............However, the way that this message has been conveyed, it appears to support a certain "Theory" instead of properly applying the correct Biblical hermeneutics to the passages of Scripture. In other words, the timespan in which this particular application is applied is irrelevant.

It shouldn't matter in the least if a certain idea or theory is being discussed or promoted though Mr. B.What matters is that the scripture says what it says...there is no timeframe spoken of regarding the IPLEMENTATION of the mark.

We know that you do not agree with the Islamic AC idea, but it should not be any reason at all for contention. We must Stand Together and encourage respect of brothers and sisters who simply hold differing opinions regarding Bible prophecy.That's all it is Mr. B., a different opinion.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

shorttribber wrote:We know that you do not agree with the Islamic AC idea, but it should not be any reason at all for contention.

You know what amazes me even more Shorty?

What amazes me even more is that you can have those who have their opinions - which by the way I wholeheartedly respect. But where the absolutely amazing part comes in at - is if I have a different view, or take and express my opinion, and furthermore support it with Scripture - then it's considered "contention". ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!

You know......I once heard a wise man say: "Opinions are like derriere's, we all have em and they ALL STINK". So one should not have a hissy fit because someone disagrees with your opinion.

I never said the ENPI theory was right - but by far it has been the only one that has survived all these years - and yet still remains as a very viable possibility. I've never called anyone "contentious" for rejecting my opinion. The contrast with the ENPI theory, and this Islamic Paradigm (what I believe is pure nonsense) is that the ENPI Theory can be supported with Scripture, the Islamic Paradigm is supported and pushed by those who have been proven to push a false doctrine. I never directed my comments towards you, or anyone else in particular concerning "my opinion".

So to anyone who has ready any of my comments, please don't take it personal, and get all up in an uproar; having tight jaws because you have perhaps bought those worthless books that they sell which perhaps would be better suited as kindle for a fire place instead of taking that same money and placing it into an offering plate.

In closing, I guess an apology may be in order for anyone who has taken my "opinion" to heart - perhaps because it may have actually hit home. I sincerely apologize to those who have bought into any FALSE doctrine. Like: The Gazing at the Blood Moons Theory; Harold Camping I got it ALL wrong, but I KNOW the Future follower; Robert Tilton I want your money lover; Creflo Dollar buy me a leer jet supporter; Benny Hinn, can't keep my hands to myself, reach out and touch me guy; Marshall Applewhite meet me at the stars admirer; Jack Van Impe reverse hair flip I've aged Apostate; Sobbing Jimmy Swaggart I need a tissue dude; Johnathan Cahn let me sell you a book so I can buy another cheap suit Solicitor; Waild Shoebat & Joel Richardson let's tag team em with NONSENSE and get rich Pimps; Soothe Sayer Joel Osteen, the bible is too heavy for me, I need a new hairdo because I don't know how to get out of the 80's guy; Kenneth Copeland, look at me, I wanna be a Billionaire - or even a survivor of the Jim Jones episode because you only sipped but didn't drink the Kool-Aide - then I apologize because I should have prayed harder so that my fellow believers in Christ wouldn't get caught up in this nonsense. However, I will continue to the best of my ability to expose anyone who attempts to DECEIVE.

Mr. B.,I haven't read your entire post, only a part.Got to go quickly to work. It is only the tone and the choice of words used that often allow contention Mr. B., that's all, not the disagreement itself.

Bless you, will add more later k?

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Mr Baldy wrote:Speaking of "knowing the answers" I want you to know that it's very refreshing to learn that you have me all figured out, and through some sort of unknown osmosis type anomaly you have the presence of mind to understand what is "concrete" in my mind. Absolutely AMAZING

Can you provide me the numbers to the lottery -

First of all, I do not play the lottery. I believe it is gambling and I will not participate. That means of course I will not provide you with any numbers so you can gamble.

Mr B. I am sorry if my statement offended you, I thought you had thicker skin as you have previously stated. To say I have you all figured out is a gross exaggeration of what I do know about you. Sometimes you are hard to figure, like this time. Other times you are generally consistent in your writings, therefore the 'concrete' mention. So I apologize for my error in judgment on this particular occasion. I was merely trying to point out there can be multiple ways to regard a Scripture, within a paradigm if you will, that backs up the paradigm's premise. This is not being deceptive, for the point of selling books or whatever. It is exploring the different possibilities of interpretations. That is all.

God Bless You Too Brother

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

kirthril wrote:Question: How can the AC implement the mark all over, if the nations are fighting him and wont adhere to him and his religion?

kirthril wrote:Answer is history.

Great History lesson and analogy - however, how do you apply your "Theoretic History Lesson" - and attempt to incorporate Bible Prophecy into it and make it reconcile together?

I don't think that dog will hunt.......

I just did incorporate the "how" though...

As this is what you mentioned earlier:

kirthril wrote:5. The mark for buying and selling is for conquered lands only.

Let's take a look at what Scripture has to say about the "Mark":

Revelation 13:16-17 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) And he causesALL , the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17) and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

"According to History" mentioned or not - The Mark certainly doesn't appear to be "limited" to "Conquered Lands Only" according to the aforementioned passage of Scripture.

I also stated that that it eventually spreads all over. Once again, I also stated the "how".

From Shorttribber:Hi Mr. B.,Please consider this matter though. In the text you have quoted, it does not indicate How Long the Process will take to receive That Mark.The space of time is not mentioned..it may take only a matter of Days for some to receive it, and yet nearly all the way to the end of the 3.5 years for ALL the Others to receive it.

See my point?...both opinions could be true.

This is exactly my line of thinking.

So to anyone who has ready any of my comments, please don't take it personal,

and

I guess an apology may be in order for anyone who has taken my "opinion" to heart

None needed.

"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins

Mr Baldy wrote:The contrast with the ENPI theory, and this Islamic Paradigm (what I believe is pure nonsense) is that the ENPI Theory can be supported with Scripture, the Islamic Paradigm is supported and pushed by those who have been proven to push a false doctrine.

The ENPI does have scriptural support, and the Islamic AC idea does also.There are plenty who attempt to gain financially who support both ideas. There should not be automatic "guilt by association" Mr. B.We are discussing the Evidence of varying opinions, that's all. We are not attempting to support those who have dishonored God by their selfishness.

Here's my opinion.......and its just an opinion, I can change this opinion at any time.

I see some validity to the Islamic theory...........but my current opinion is that the Islamic theory has a big problem. The number 1 reason why I do not believe that Islam will take over the world by force with an Islamic Anti-Christ as its leader is due to the incompatibility of Islam with Western Sinfulness - Babylon sinfulness. This is the big problem I have with the Islam theory that I can't ignore.........if I could see a way for the Homosexuals, lesbians and transgenders to get along with the ISIS group then yes I could see the islamic theory working. But right now I see Babylon (America) being too powerful and too present all over the globe pushing and promoting the LGBTQ agenda. Its mostly the islamic nations that remain opposed to the LGBTQ agenda, along with Russia/China. In fact if you look at a map about the laws against Gay Rights in different nations, you will see that its Russia/china/Islamic nations and some african nations that still maintain laws against homosexuality. While all the Western nations are Gay friendly, homosexuality no longer being against the law in those nations.

The wicked world that is described in Revelations, to me is a PERVERTED world. I see the leaders of islam being tougher on LGBTQ perversions than any other leaders so I find it hard seeing a day when Islam will be LGBTQ friendly. Islam certainly provides the world with deception and blood thirsty violence - so those sins are in islam - plus the fact its a completely false religion - but I don't see islam embracing the Gay movement, nor ever being in agreement with the sexual perversions of the LGBTQ movement.

But who knows what the future holds, perhaps we'll see islam embrace the Gay community......stranger things have happened.

My vision of the future world described in Revelations has the wickedness mainly coming from the LGBTQ community, hence I see the USA (Babylon) as the dominant corrupting force and the United Nations as the Beast Empire.

I think the Popes role is currently to CREATE a new religion for the Beast empire - United Nations. A false religion that can be as broad and accepting as possible, accepting of false teachings, accepting of sexual perversion, accepting of all different views and beliefs. Basically I see them trying to water down islam and promote it as a "peace-loving" religion. Kinda an anti-terrorist form of islam to serve the United Nations purposes. I see terrorists as one of the biggest PUBLIC enemies of the Beast Empire because they are basically non-conformers to the Beasts agenda. I see them as being promoted as bad by the Beast Empire, they serve as propaganda tools.

So I don't see how ISIS, or a violent form of Islam could rise up as the Anti-Christ's empire. In my opinion the Anti-Christ is going to use deception and convince the world he is a good guy, he is not going to use fear (like violent islamic fear) to persuade the masses, he is instead going to appeal to peoples sinful natures, and permit sin and please as many people as possible. That's how I see deception as working, appearing as a sheep outwardly (as a good guy) but being a wolf internally (having evil intentions - though hidden).

I believe through his deception he will convince the world to persecute Christians, we will end up with a media propaganda war attacking Christians because they preach HATE. That's what I think is coming...........the Anti-Christ may indeed be muslim, but I don't think its going to be a pure violent Islam that takes over the world by force, I think its going to be a mixture of religions with a watered down islam as only a part of that group. I see the Pope as the leader and this global religion will primary fight against Truthful speech - causing Christians to be called people who promote HATE and who are guilty of HATE SPEECH. Basically when you have a world full of very sinful people all united together you can't have a religion that corrects that sin, instead you need a religion that protects the right to sin. Pure Christianity is a threat to those who want to keep on sinning, because it contains the Truth about sin and its consequences. All the social justice movements we see today, especially the LGBTQ movement, are basically movements protecting sinners from the Truth, and these movements stand as defenders and promoters of peoples right to sin and keep on sinning - regardless of immediate and eternal consequences.

Note I do agree that islam will be a powerful force against Christians..........its just the ISIS style of Islam that I don't see succeeding.........its too unpopular with sinful perverted people and the Anti-Christ will be worshipped as a popular leader IMHO.

So I tend to agree with Mr Badly that the Mark of the Beast would be mandated globally in a reasonably speedy manner, well at least the Anti-Christ will control GLOBAL COMMERCE and use technology fiercely, like we see the USA doing today. The way I see it happening is there will be a global World War (WW3) as described in Revelations (4 horsemen of the apocalypse). I believe the war will be Russia/China + allies against USA + western allies. I think China will end up betraying Russia because it will suffer too much from trade losses with the USA (Babylon). So I think as the War progresses and China suffers it will do a deal with the USA and Russia will fail. Hence I see globalist western powers winning WW3 and that it will be achieved under the banner of the United Nations. Look who doesn't like the United Nations rise to power right now, Russia doesn't like it, China doesn't like it (South China Sea dispute). This war is going to be about these big nations grab for global power, china/russia on one side and western nations under the United Nations on the other side. So IMHO it will be the United Nations with the Anti-Christ as its leader fighting this War and winning this war (western globalists, incl EU). After winning the biggest battles and victory is declared I believe the Anti-Christ will mandate the Mark of the Beast as leader of the United Nations. Once the Law is mandated then getting it enforced will be the next step......hence why the Anti-Christ will need control of global commerce. That will be how he globally enforces this MOTB law in a speedy manner, by denying opponents the ability to buy or sell, use the global commerce system.

So for nations that comply with the Anti-Christ - they will probably seek and kill Christians, for other nations that are still resisting the Mark of the Beast (if there are any) they will not be able to trade, buy or sell, and residents will starve.

As I said at the very start.....my opinion can change and may indeed change as time goes on.....but this is my current view.

.

KJV ONLY !The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ."The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7

Great post brett, I can see those ideas as a real possibility too. It's a Blend of the many ideas that I think will occur.The AC Originates though, I think, as an Apostate, so to speak, Muslim.Was that too many commas? Probably, not too good at that stuff.Anyway, I think the "Religious Guide" aspect will indeed be the Roman Papacy. He will lead the Apostates into "UNITY", While the AC will be the Enforcer OF That "Unity".

The AC will have Real Spiritual Experience WITH, and have become very Familiar with That spirit, the "god of Forces" spirit.

There is a joining of antichristian powers that is coming to a Head, in the antichristian realm, That Head IS the CAPSTONE of the Pyramid represented in occult and secret societies.

That is why the Islamic idea has Strong Evidence as does the Revived Roman Empire. They are only Two corners of the Pyramid though. The other two Corners seem to be, the New Age Universalist antichrist idea and the Atheist Secular Humanist antichrist idea.

These Will Be One AC and False Religious idea Under satan's power. Please note the lower case "s".

We are going to defeat That Loser Rev 1210 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

That's my basic take on this so far...and the truth will be known.....very soon I think too.

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Like I said my views are not set in stone, I am probably mistaken in some aspects. In fact when I think about it.......the 10 Kings will hate Babylon and destroy Babylon........that gives support for the 10 Kings being more Islamic type Kings, since they hate the woman. So that does support the idea of an Islamic Beast Empire & Islamic Anti-Christ.

My only issue is with the global dominance of America and its constant agenda to force its "way of life", its "system of government", and its "beliefs" on all the other nations. If there is any nation on this planet that has global power right now its America. And its America that pushes the LGBTQ issue on all the other nations, and all other nations are mostly caving into this American influence. Although Babylon isn't the Beast Empire is it? Babylon is the Woman who rides the Beast............

I may well be coming around to sharing the view of the Islamic Beast Empire, HOWEVER I believe the mere presence and existence of Babylon, the woman, will not permit global worship of Allah, I just cannot see the LGBTQ community (and rebellious sexual sinners in general) bowing down to islam, these are unruly sinners who would not bow down to anything. And Babylon won't be destroyed until the very end...........so how would Babylon (the land that loves sinful perversions) allow the Beast Empire to force Islam upon it? I just can't see Babylon embracing islam.............so I think that's gonna be the Pope's job, to create a mixed false religion. So I don't think they will be trying to force us to worship Allah, but to worship the Pope's god

Anyway time will tell......I gotta go now.....interesting topic......

KJV ONLY !The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ."The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7

extravagantchristian wrote:Is it possible that the AntiChrist could be a leader in Israel? Did you know that Israel elected their 10th President in 2014, and it is a 7 year term?

If you think about it, the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, and the Anti Christ is going to claim to be Messiah.... (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) Wouldn't he then need to be a Jew? Who is the most powerful Jew in the World? Who has the power and ability to even sign a peace covenant? Is it Netanyahu?

ec, the person who becomes the Antichrist will be a Jew yes. And will be anointed the King of Israel. But he must originate from the people who destroyed the city and temple - the Romans. He will come from the EU.

He will confirmthe covenant for 7 years, not a 7 year covenant. Which is in the bible as the 7 year cycle that Moses established in Deuteronomy 31:-9-13, which the law of Moses (the Mt Sinai covenant because God gave the law through Moses - it is called the law of Moses) is to be read to assembly of the nation of Israel - as a remembrance that God gave them the land forever, and that He would be their God, and they his people.

He first appears as the little horn, when the ten leaders come to power (the transgressors come to the full, Daniel 8:23).

In Daniel 8, he waxes (imagine wax running down a candle onto a plate) strong from one of the breakup kingdom of the Greek empire, north and west of Israel. Following Gog/Magog, he moves into the middle east with his EU army to secure all of the oil for the EU. The prince who shall come.

Israel, in post Gog/Magog euphoria, will think he is their messiah, and he will be anointed the King of Israel. That's what makes him the Antichrist. He is in the role of the Antichrist, until he violates the covenant, by the transgression of desolation, going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. The Jews will reject him as continuing as their King - ending his role as the Antichrist.

For a short time, he is then simply the revealed man of sin, until God has him killed and in disdain for him resurrects him to be shortly cast into the lake of fire. When he is brought back to life, it is then he becomes the beast of Revelation 13.

So the elected president of Israel- is not the Antichrist person.

The little horn will be a Jew and also of Roman descent, of the Julio Claudian family. He will be the 7th king of the Roman empire of that family lineage. After he goes through his time as the Antichrist (basically the first half of the 70th week), and is killed and bought back to life, he will be possessed by the spirit of the beast in bottomless pit, to become the 8th king of the Roman Empire. Which the EU is the kingdom of the beast.

In Revelation 13, the beast and the kingdom of the beast. The kingdom of the beast is composite of the other three empires, to show that with 42 months in the 70th week left, the EU will have gained control of the territories of the other three former kingdoms of Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylonian.

You are thinking good - the person will be Jew - and leader of Israel. But only by the path of being the little horn, then the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog.

Last edited by Douggg on Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

David, the Antichrist will be a muslim, when the bible says that Jesus was a muslim.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

The person is the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 - who is given a crown - anointed the King of Israel, making him the Antichrist. At the beginning of the 70th week. I am making a thread on the structure of Revelation 6-20. I think it will be quiet revealing to you.

The person is the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 - who is given a crown - anointed the King of Israel, making him the Antichrist. At the beginning of the 70th week. I am making a thread on the structure of Revelation 6-20. I think it will be quiet revealing to you.[/quote]

Hi Doug. Great to hear from you again. I see the thread, haven't read it yet, but I will check it,out.

I don't agree with your interpretation of who the Rider of the First Horse is. Maybe your new thread will help to explain your reasoning better on this.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Mr Baldy wrote:Amazing - some these responses, and how things are "read into"......

I think it's just time to humbly move on.

Peace to you all.

Mr B, frankly, at times there is not a lot of humility in your posts. Sorry some here don't see you in that light, sometimes, as your presentation is not quite the way you think it is. Perhaps just a misunderstanding, and a miscommunication. Please forgive us for that. Nevertheless, it would be sad for you to leave. Many here enjoy your writing, as do I.

God Bless You'

'David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

I must admit that at times I have wondered if the AC will be a Jewish leader. One scripture has raised real doubts in my mind about the people living in Israel today, who call themselves Jews.

Luke 2120 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Note this scripture is talking about the inhabitants of Judea & Jerusalem. So this scripture clearly states that there is Wrath upon the inhabitants (the people) living in Judea and Jerusalem (southern half of modern day Israel). So why does the bible say the people living here are under Gods Wrath? That scripture has always bothered me........because its basically saying these people living in this area are not under God's protection, indeed they are under Gods Wrath. The people living in this region are modern day Jews........think about that. They are therefore not under Gods blessing as we have been told. Then you've gotta ask yourself, why are so many Christians supporting these modern day Jews - if they are under Gods Wrath? This one scripture has raised a lot of doubts in my mind concerning modern day Israel.........and allowed me to contemplate the possibility of a Jewish Anti-Christ. But overall it has cast a big shadow over the whole supporting Israel thing......these days I'm a little more cautious about supporting Israel as I'm not 100% sure its really the right thing to do. I know Islam is far worse, but the question still has to be asked, who really are the people living in Israel today? Why am I supporting them when they openly reject Christ? And another thing - why does modern day Israel so proudly support the LGBTQ community, having the Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade etc?

Something is clearly not fully right here and I now have some doubts about supporting modern day Israel. I have always been a supporter, I've always loved Netanyahu........but now I've become a little more cautious. As an example in the past I used to strongly defend them when talking to people who were against the Jews. Now I will hold my tongue a bit more and just ponder rather than automatically speak out to defend Israel.......just not quite sure.....

.

KJV ONLY !The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ."The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7

brett wrote:I may well be coming around to sharing the view of the Islamic Beast Empire, HOWEVER I believe the mere presence and existence of Babylon, the woman, will not permit global worship of Allah, I just cannot see the LGBTQ community (and rebellious sexual sinners in general) bowing down to islam, these are unruly sinners who would not bow down to anything.

Brett, consider what will happen, ' IF ', the lgbt community as a general whole converts to islam. And consider there is a strong presence of that group, males in particular, who are already in the muslim countries. They don't like to talk about it, but they do make fatwa's, edicts from their imams, explaining what is acceptable for their men in regards to sexual conduct and relations. I can give a couple for instances, but I refrain here at this time, they are quite gross in every respect. The concept being, islam is very carnal, and directed towards men and their being in charge of everything, women and children are lesser beings, property really, non muslims are even lesser. Islam states one thing but allows another, homosexuality, bestiality, are explained and accepted, excused away, not by all, but many. This is not so openly spoken of, but it has a strong presence, as I said. Consider 'IF' islam decides to accept the western gay community, even as a ploy, what will happen then ? Can you see a very militant form of islam in the West coming from this ? I hate to even think of it. Islam accepting and condoning western behaviors as natural in the muslim world ? This will be real challenge for the Church, and the rest of society. These sins are mostly hidden in muslim countries today, maybe one day they will not be as much. These sexual sinners as you describe them, not bowing down to anything, will not be bothered with that, as long as they get to take charge of the persecution of others, and the forcing of acceptance of their lifestyle, at the insistence and blessing of a foreign god. What a tool they would be for the god of forces. For an example I give you the ' nation of islam ' in the black community. While they are not particularly strong here in the US, they are a force to reckon with for some. Just something to think about Brett.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

brett wrote:Note this scripture is talking about the inhabitants of Judea & Jerusalem. So this scripture clearly states that there is Wrath upon the inhabitants (the people) living in Judea and Jerusalem (southern half of modern day Israel). So why does the bible say the people living here are under Gods Wrath?

I don't believe this is God's wrath Brett, but rather satans wrath against Gods chosen people. Judea is essentially the West Bank today, the area under contention for a two state solution. When the people are to flee there that is because the invasion of Ezekiel 38 has begun. There will be an occupation, to include a large presence in Jerusalem, and many from Judea will be living in tents temporarily, and they will be the first saved according to Scripture as their abode is very close to Jerusalem.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

brett wrote: I don't believe this is God's wrath Brett, but rather satans wrath against Gods chosen people. Judea is essentially the West Bank today, the area under contention for a two state solution. When the people are to flee there that is because the invasion of Ezekiel 38 has begun. There will be an occupation, to include a large presence in Jerusalem, and many from Judea will be living in tents temporarily, and they will be the first saved according to Scripture as their abode is very close to Jerusalem.

God Bless You

David

David, is that what Matthew 24:15 says? They flee when the AOD is setup to be worshiped. On day 1185 (2520-1335) of the 70th week, 75 days before the end of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony. During the 75 days the two witnessses battle the beast as the Jews flee.

The basic construct of the 70th week timeline is

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (containing within, the time, times, half times of Satan's wrath) = the 70th week.

Ezekiel 38 (a non-AOD event) will take place before the 70th week and has no bearing of the Jews fleeing Jerusalem.

This is the big problem I have with the Islam theory that I can't ignore.........if I could see a way for the Homosexuals, lesbians and transgenders to get along with the ISIS group

I see the leaders of islam being tougher on LGBTQ perversions than any other leaders so I find it hard seeing a day when Islam will be LGBTQ friendly.

So I don't see how ISIS, or a violent form of Islam could rise up as the Anti-Christ's empire

Ok so let me explain. The mistake you are making Brett is you are assuming ISIS style Islam is the style of the AC. When I use scripture to back up my assertion of a Muslim AC, which nation do I point to?

The second mistake you make is not understanding that Islam is the exact opposite of Christianity. And what I mean is that homosexuality and transgenderism IS ACCEPTABLE in Islam. But since Islam is the opposite of Christianity, it also is the ultimate do as I say not as I do religion. You can look at the history of Islam since its foundation and throughout the caliphates that homosexuality and transgenderism was a mainstay in Islamic hierarchy. For the rich and powerful, for the imams and sultans, for the ones at the top, passing around young boys was preferred over women. Exotic male dancers with mascara was normal at dinner parties.

Islam is the ultimate hypocritical religion. Yes they kill homosexuals and call it evil, but they make no apologies when they partake in it themselves:

Douggg wrote:On day 1185 (2520-1335) of the 70th week, 75 days before the end of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony. During the 75 days the two witnessses battle the beast as the Jews flee.

Mostly I'm familiar with your position, but would like to hear again why you feel the 75 day period is more or less set aside as part of the ministry of the two witnesses.

It is apparent that you understand the 75 days as Beginning Before the AOD. Is that related to an idea of the "War in Heaven" mentioned in Rev12? Is that the primary reason you have for placing the 75 days Before the AOD?

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

kirthril wrote:Shorttribber writes:This is the big problem I have with the Islam theory that I can't ignore.........if I could see a way for the Homosexuals, lesbians and transgenders to get along with the ISIS group I see the leaders of islam being tougher on LGBTQ perversions than any other leaders so I find it hard seeing a day when Islam will be LGBTQ friendly.So I don't see how ISIS, or a violent form of Islam could rise up as the Anti-Christ's empire

Oops Kirthril, ya got me mixed up with brett

That's ok..... anyway, things like that happen

But I do agree with you where you say this...

"Ok so let me explain. The mistake you are making ST******** (brett) is you are assuming ISIS style Islam is the style of the AC. When I use scripture to back up my assertion of a Muslim AC, which nation do I point to?Turkey. Is Turkey Isis style islam? No. Isis is Wahabbism. Turkey is Sufi. Arabia is Wahabbist. Iran is Shitte. Others are Sunni."

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

shorttribber wrote:Hello Douggg,Welcome back to commenting again brother

Douggg wrote:On day 1185 (2520-1335) of the 70th week, 75 days before the end of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony. During the 75 days the two witnessses battle the beast as the Jews flee.

Mostly I'm familiar with your position, but would like to hear again why you feel the 75 day period is more or less set aside as part of the ministry of the two witnesses.

It is apparent that you understand the 75 days as Beginning Before the AOD. Is that related to an idea of the "War in Heaven" mentioned in Rev12? Is that the primary reason you have for placing the 75 days Before the AOD?

Thanks for the very kind welcome. I have been busy at other sites.

You misunderstand me. I don't put the 75 days before the AOD (maybe you are saying that the AOD is on the exact midpooint). The 75 days is from when the AOD is setup to be worshiped to the exact midpoint.

In Revelation 12:6 the woman is being fed by the word of God by the two witnesses 1260 days. day 1 through day 1260 on the 70th week 7 year timeline.

On day 1185, the AOD image of the beast will be setup to be worship. So the woman begins fleeing into the wilderness, the place prepared for her. That would be near the end of the 1260 days. The 75 days are within the 1260 days, but at the end of it.

day 1...............day 1185 Aod setup........the woman is fleeing into the wilderness for 75 days..............day 1260.

The two witnesses will be battling the beast as the Jews flee for 75 days until the beast overcomes then and essentially closes the door to escape. Them who don't make out are the remnant in Revelation 12:17. They will be rescued in Zechariah 14 , when Jesus returns.

So to look at how things line up with Revelation 12 and the timeline....

Revelation 12:6, is the 1260 days first half. Near the end of the 1260 days, the Jews flee into the wilderness, as the AOD has been setup on day 1185. The two witnesses are killed by the beast on day 1260. They lay dead in the streets 3 1/2 days - leaving 1256:5 days in the 70th week. The bible rounds this time off as saying 42 months.

In Revelation 13:5, the beast rules those 42 months with the two witnesses gone. So he is unhampered during that time.

Revealing of the seven years relevant to Israel chapter 12

Revealing of the second half of the seven years after the two witnesses are gone chapter 13, chapter 14

Back to Revelation 12, after the 1260 days, and the 3 1/2 days (not given in the text of Revelation 12) there is the war in heaven. We don't know how much earth time takes place while that war goes on. Probably just a day or two.

Anyway that war in heaven time leaves a fewer days left in the 42 months, which itself is really 1256:5 days rounded off. So when Satan is cast down it says for a time, times, half times.

kirthril wrote:Shorttribber writes:This is the big problem I have with the Islam theory that I can't ignore.........if I could see a way for the Homosexuals, lesbians and transgenders to get along with the ISIS group I see the leaders of islam being tougher on LGBTQ perversions than any other leaders so I find it hard seeing a day when Islam will be LGBTQ friendly.So I don't see how ISIS, or a violent form of Islam could rise up as the Anti-Christ's empire

Oops Kirthril, ya got me mixed up with brett

That's ok..... anyway, things like that happen

But I do agree with you where you say this...

"Ok so let me explain. The mistake you are making ST******** (brett) is you are assuming ISIS style Islam is the style of the AC. When I use scripture to back up my assertion of a Muslim AC, which nation do I point to?Turkey. Is Turkey Isis style islam? No. Isis is Wahabbism. Turkey is Sufi. Arabia is Wahabbist. Iran is Shitte. Others are Sunni."

will correct.

"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins

Douggg wrote:On day 1185, the AOD image of the beast will be setup to be worship. So the woman begins fleeing into the wilderness, the place prepared for her. That would be near the end of the 1260 days. The 75 days are within the 1260 days, but at the end of it.day 1...............day 1185 Aod setup........the woman is fleeing into the wilderness for 75 days..............day 1260. The two witnesses will be battling the beast as the Jews flee for 75 days until the beast overcomes then and essentially closes the door to escape.

Douggg wrote:David, is that what Matthew 24:15 says? They flee when the AOD is setup to be worshiped. On day 1185 (2520-1335) of the 70th week, 75 days before the end of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony. During the 75 days the two witnessses battle the beast as the Jews flee.

The basic construct of the 70th week timeline is

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (containing within, the time, times, half times of Satan's wrath) = the 70th week.

Ezekiel 38 (a non-AOD event) will take place before the 70th week and has no bearing of the Jews fleeing Jerusalem.

Hi Doug. I know that is your position, I believe differently. At the AoD it causes such an uproar in the lands the people all are ready to fight. Imagine muslims seeing and believing their god has become incarnate, the mahdi, present and talking control of the world, for them. I believe the AoD comes with instructions to take over the land of Israel, in part anyway, that being lands of pre 67 Israel. That is the West Bank, Gaza has already been given up. Yes there will be a terrible tribulation, but it will be cut short. There is much to accomplish after that. Since I am a believer in the only part of the 70th Week that is left is the last half, the first half was accomplished by Christ and His Ministry, it's the AoD that I am waiting for. I believe the Ezekiel invasion to be part and parcel to Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83, culminating in Armageddon. Three and a half very long years, of islamic intrusion into every aspect of our lives. God help us all. Especially Israel.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God