Not to derail the original thread here but since we already are.....where does the EVO fit in the convection vs. conduction vs. hybrid debate. I am sure the EVO is a "mostly convection" vape but there are other properties involved which is why loading an ELB, setting to max and then lowering to noon after the max temp is reached produces more on the first pull. Wouldn't the EVO then qualify as a unicorn ... hybrid?

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Beats me, never even seen one. But the rules are still the same. Do you need to pull hot air through to get to vapor after idle? Does it exhibit 'heat soak' benefits between hits? That should confirm it. I still maintain there are no 'hybrids' possible, you're (predominantly) one or the other?

For the OP's original concern F2 is a conduction vape (luckily what he wanted the answer to be).

Beats me, never even seen one. But the rules are still the same. Do you need to pull hot air through to get to vapor after idle? Does it exhibit 'heat soak' benefits between hits? That should confirm it. I still maintain there are no 'hybrids' possible, you're (predominantly) one or the other?
OF

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I guess we're talking semantics then? To me a hybrid isn't classified as "predominately" anything. A hybrid carries the characteristics of more than one property regardless of the percentage of the properties.

I still maintain there are no 'hybrids' possible, you're (predominantly) one or the other?
OF

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You of all people I would hardly if ever disagree. I respect most if not all of what you've opined herein and on other threads. However, based on my basic understanding and differences between convection and conduction, is anything truly convection? Material must sit somewhere in contact with something, thus being exposed to a minimal amout of conduction and depending on the holding material some conduction heat will be transfered. Thus I contend and my personal belief is that everything has at least a minor conduction element to it.

I will however demure and categorize vapes largely in either camp, conduction or convection or perhaps a more or less balanced combination for a third group, for the sake of agreement and community. Not trying to be argumentative at all. And I would categories the Fury/2 and their clones as convection. I'll leave it that.

Just passed certification #1 of 3 I've embarked on related to work. I'm going to celebrate the best way I know how - with my Snap.

I guess we're talking semantics then? To me a hybrid isn't classified as "predominately" anything. A hybrid carries the characteristics of more than one property regardless of the percentage of the properties.

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Could be we're looking at it from 'different ends', in fact almost surely? But that doesn't change the issue IMO. It's one or the other, based on design and how the heat flows. When you take a hit after a long rest the load has either cooled off and there's no immediate vapor (convection) or it's had time to recover the heat lost in the former hit, 'build up vapor' which is immediately available (conduction).

I'm not sure about a conduction vape that identifies with convection more....... Are there 'trans vapes'?

There is no difference in the vapor itself? How the heat got there doesn't matter.

I think convection has an advantage in keeping the system clean perhaps?

You of all people I would hardly if ever disagree. I respect most if not all of what you've opined herein and on other threads. However, based on my basic understanding and differences between convection and conduction, is anything truly convection?

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Excellent point! In the end, convection is a special case of conduction where a 'working fluid' is mechanically moved carrying heat with it. But heat gets into and out of the fluid by conduction. A Physics Professor I had in the last century joked, 'we just call convection special to keep the Engineers happy'.

You're exactly right in the end the heat gets into the load because heated walls conduct it in or because heated air conducts it in. It's still calories (or better still, BTUs). Hot air that doesn't contact the load and give up heat has no effect on it's own except to annoy the user.......

Could be we're looking at it from 'different ends', in fact almost surely? But that doesn't change the issue IMO. It's one or the other, based on design and how the heat flows.

Anyway, F2 is a conduction vape I'm quite sure.

OF

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IMO ... The F2 uses convection and conduction and qualifies as a hybrid. As has been the case almost every time the topic of convection vs conduction comes up around here the parties involved in the debate....eventually have to agree to disagree. It usually takes pages upon pages of debate that includes observations, testing approaches, testing tools, etc. to reach the "agree to disagree" end. I'm going to cut to the chase for myself and move right to the agree to disagree. You folks feel free to carry-on

A Physics Professor I had in the last century joked, 'we just call convection special to keep the Engineers happy'.

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If I may draw an apropos analogy: Calculus was invented to describe Physics. Nuff said. We can call agree to disagree per @His_Highness and my difference of opinion is not vehement enough to warrant further debate herein.

But OF, the F2 heating element is underneath the chamber. So the walls are not a uniform temp. If it were 100% conduction, then it would be like my Alfa where the chamber wall IS the heating element and youre roasting 100% of the load when turning it to max temp for 4-8 minutes. Thats not what happens with the F2 though. On the F2 only a partial (50%-75%?) roast occurs when doing this. That right there ends the debate. To roast the F2 load 100% you have to draw with your mouth and get hot air movement through the load. Its a hybrid and its not up for debate (why would it be up for debate when anyone can test this and see for themselves)?

If I may draw an apropos analogy: Calculus was invented to describe Physics. Nuff said.

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I tend to agree, Calculus is an expansion of Algebra. "Math is the language of Science". But I don't follow the analogy?

I think I've stated my POV, and the reasoning behind it. If I've made an error there, I hope someone can/will point it out. Otherwise I'm happy to stand by it, no need to question it further unless someone has that 'evidence'?

But OF, the F2 heating element is underneath the chamber. So the walls are not a uniform temp. If it were 100% conduction, then it would be like my Alfa where the chamber wall IS the heating element and youre roasting 100% of the load when turning it to max temp for 4-8 minutes. Thats not what happens with the F2 though. On the F2 only a partial (50%-75%?) roast occurs when doing this. To roast the F2 load 100% you have to draw with your mouth and get hot air movement through the load. Its a hybrid and its not up for debate (why would it be up for debate when anyone can test this and see for themselves)?

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I don't think it matters where the heater is, heat is conducted through the heavy metal walls and is pretty uniform around the load sides and bottom. Heat does escape up so the upper part, near the center is cooler than the rest at idle. Hitting it does change this by convection, by distributing heat already there by conduction? The same would happen with cold air, like that which leaks down and under Solo stems. Even that effect is minor.

Herb doesn't 'roast' to the expense of THC in such cases, the THC simply evaporates then condenses again. Like water in a covered pot. We experimented with this with Purple Days. Some of us drifted off with a loaded stem in the heater only to find it the next day, quite dark but still potent.

My point is that even if you manage to heat the incoming air to the full 400F of the heater (not really possible since only a tiny fraction of the air actually contacts the walls on the way through, most never touches), 400F air alone won't make useful vapor. Heating the air will increase vapor since the energy to heat it no longer comes from the load (robbing it of vapor production), but it cannot really make vapor by itself.

What happens if you pull a glass stem up so it gets 100% of this convection heating but no conduction? Even easier to test on FIERCE since the seal to the stem is better. I've done this test on several popular vapes that claim to be (at least partially) convection in nature. Give it a try?

Again, I agree, it's getting to Angels dancing on pins. But still think there's no declarable difference between a bag of vapor from conduction and one from convection under similar conditions. Neither is superior to the other.

I think I've stated my POV, and the reasoning behind it. If I've made an error there, I hope someone can/will point it out. Otherwise I'm happy to stand by it, no need to question it further unless someone has that 'evidence'?

I don't think it matters where the heater is, heat is conducted through the heavy metal walls and is pretty uniform around the load sides and bottom. Heat does escape up so the upper part, near the center is cooler than the rest at idle.
OF

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Didnt someone post a pic awhile back of a loaded F2 glass stem that sat through a heating cycle untouched and 1/3 of the load was brown and a smallish portion at the top was still green? I think one thing we can all agree on is that its not 50/50, its more like 80/20 or something..

Hmmm. I was under the impression that the reason a carb cap works to make the vapor production ramp up when you place your cap on and inhale to take a dab hit is because the inhaling lowers the pressure in the banger, which causes the oil to vaporize as if the temps were instantly raised a bit because of the lowered pressure.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that the reason a carb cap works to make the vapor production ramp up when you place your cap on and inhale to take a dab hit is because the inhaling lowers the pressure in the banger, which causes the oil to vaporize as if the temps were instantly raised a bit because of the lowered pressure.

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While I don't use such things (don't do dabs....)I think you're on the right course but missed the cause? It's not pressure (indeed there can be very very little pressure change in such an open area from your draw (even if you're known as 'leather lungs'). I think it's because it introduces COLD air into the bowl directed at the bottom. Cooling the heated vapor/hot air there forms a FOG as the air is rapidly cooled (and can therefore hold less vapor), just like cooling moist air brings us fog locally.

The hot air become saturated with vapor, you can see it (vapor) condense out on the walls above (where it's cooler) to return. Introducing a blast of cool air upsets this equilibrium both by blowing the hot stuff up and cooling it. There is a class of high vacuum pumps that work on this called 'diffusion pumps'. Heated oil vapor rises up onto the water cooled walls where it returns. Looking down the throat you can see a 'cloud bank' over the pot. As it condenses it traps random residual gas molecules and drags them down. They escape but are concentrated above the oil where they can be 'pulled off' by a mechanical pump (which alone is hopeless against such low pressures).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_pumphttps://diffusionpumpoil.com/pages/diffusion-pump-working-principle

We're doing something like this I think, but sucking the 'backstreaming' oil instead.

Not sure what to say about what others might have said/believed, but I've never held it, or similar vapes, to be anything but conduction. Since before I knew about vapes. Since school and all that Thermodynamics stuff. Made a living following those rules, I believe in them.

OF

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Everything you said is true, assuming you made valid assumptions to being with. That being said, I don't know what the actual temp of the "heating element" is at the time of use. What exactly are you measuring when you assume the F2 is only generating 400 degrees at its "central core"?

I seem to remember a similar discussion about the now-defunct Haze Square (which I also own). It was a "true convection" vape that heats by air passing over a super-heated exposed coil. My main reason for buying one was so I could just take a hit or two and leave the rest for later - an "on demand" vape with a 3 sec heat up time. But the question of "what temp is it at" was one hashed out a few times. The conclusion was that the "temp setting" was really an estimated vape temp because the coil was generating MUCH higher temps (like 900+ degrees). This is consistent with your thermo analysis.

So the real question is - how high is the actual core heat temp when you set the (estimated) vaping temp on the F2? It probably is similar to the Haze - MUCH higher than 400 degrees. When you set your F2 at 400 degrees, you are not setting the heater to 400 degrees. You are setting the heater to a temp that produces 400 degrees of hot air. For all we know, the F2's core is heating to twice that.

This would explain why the F2 functions as a true convection vape, although NOT an "on demand" convection vape since it needs to heat up for 20 secs. (What is the limit on using the "on demand" term anyway? 2 seconds? 10 seconds? zero seconds?)

The F2 vaping experience and ABV also acts like convection and not conduction. I've own a few portable conduction vapes, and my current goto is a Haze Dual. Conduction vapes all seem to product a much darker ABV, and although some are more consistent than others, ABV has a few darker areas where the material makes direct contact with the metal bowl. However, all of the ABV I've observed from the F2 has been lightly brown and very consistent. In fact, the ABV is identical to every other convection vape I've used, including the Square and Ghost.

The vapor itself is like a convection vape as well. It's lighter, tastier, but mostly, you have to work a bit to get vapor. My Haze will start and finish a bowl without me ever taking a draw because the material is in a hot oven. It doesn't need a draw to work. The F2, however, does seem to need a draw. In fact, just like the Square, it needs a good healthy draw to work at all because it's not being heated by an oven, but by the air you draw over it. At least that's how it appears to me.

So I just did a pod test. Put in a freshly filled pod, turned it on to 420 degrees, and let it timeout without a draw. Looking at the material, it's a bit tanner looking, but not dried. So I then attempted to vape that same pod, and it vaped great! I got the same hits as normal (about 4-5 good ones) and it tasted right too. If I did that in any my Haze Dual, there would be nothing left to vape.

So call it whatever you want, convection or hybrid, the metal bowl is certainly not heating to 420 degrees. If it did , it would vape all on it's own. It needs the hot air to work - like a convection vape.

The tear down on puff it up suggests that "the heated coil controls the temperature of both the loading chamber and the air passing through it for a combination of conduction and convection extraction, the best of both worlds for flavor and vapor output."

The coil can't control two different temps (loading chamber at around 400, air at around 3x that temp) at the same time. It can only control one (in this case, the oven), while influencing the other (the air around it). If the heater is regulated to heat the oven to temps of around 400, the air temp around the coil is hot, yes, but as OF suggests not hot enough vaporize our material, least of all when one sets to the task of pulling cool air across it. By all appearances, the vaporizer is producing vapor by conduction (contact of the material with the ss oven).

although NOT an "on demand" convection vape since it needs to heat up for 20 secs

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'On-demand' vaporizers also require time to heat up. Mine take close to 20 seconds minimum on a fresh cell and 30+ seconds from that point on, as the cell drains. When I take my finger off the button, the temp falls to room temp fairly quickly. If I were to keep my finger on the button to keep the heater at temps capable of vaporizing my material, the battery would be unable to produce temps high enough to vaporize within 5 minutes. Yet the F2 holds temps in the oven at 400+ for 3x that amount of time, at least . This would be because it's only needing to heat the ss oven to temps of 400. It's engineered to hold that temp for several minutes at a time before cutting off. Being that it requires less energy to heat to 400 than to @1200, the cells are able to provide more sessions than one of my on-demand convection vaporizers, which drain quickly due to the need to heat the coil to such high temps.

Convection vaporizers tend to have small ovens made of materials that rob little heat from the hot air and the load in the oven. An oven made of ss is clearly made with an eye toward heat retention, and that would mean conduction is designed in as a significant player in teh F2.

Convection vaporizers tend to have small ovens made of materials that rob little heat from the hot air and the load in the oven. An oven made of ss is clearly made with an eye toward heat retention, and that would mean conduction is designed in as a significant player in teh F2.

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Excellent points. An important factor is where exactly the heat sensor is. Once the heat flow changes (like you take a hit) there will be temperature drops due to that flow different from the static state. This can be very important in say furnaces where fresh melt is added calling for a burst of heat to melt it. If the sensor is 'wrong' (say too close to the heat source) it can become unstable. Ideally we'd like to control the temperature of the load, but largely settle for something close to the wall temperature?

I like the point that practical convection vapes typically feature small (less to heat) well insulated (less loss) bowls. Solid design goal. What led TV to an all Zirconia design for their second attempt (Ni plated Aluminum with Delrin jacket), a significant improvement in the pretty modest battery life. Doubled it for practical purposes IIRC. You work very hard (expend a lot of energy) to heat, not wasting heat becomes more important?

There is, I think a difference between true on demand and 'really fast to make vapor'. Not sure what that is right now. I'm thinking it's something like 'turn it on, wait a bit until it's ready if necessary (not disqualifying), leisurely hit it as you want, when you want, without impacting performance (every hit solid and 'fresh'). I think that means a convection system that cools off between hits but is heated to deliver lots of hot air when demanded so the hit can be fast to deliver and not sag if you hit too long. That's going to be mighty rough on batteries to deliver.

For now I agree F2 comes pretty close to that goal, even if it doesn't feature the 'cool fully between hits' part. Good compromises made for this excellent little vape.

Ooo, fun idea! I doubt Bernoulli has much to offer pressure wise, the effect is pretty small in things like perfume atomizers where the flow is intentionally restricted and the 'vent' is in the narrowed part. Plane wings a huge (large surface area) and need a lot of speed (over 100 fps?) while we can only offer a very small fraction of that with even the stoutest honk? Even pulling hard against heavy restriction (what I suspect is the biggest drop possible?

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I agree with the probability the pressure drop is not going to be enough to really change things to a huge degree. But, while related to Bernoulli, I believe it is the Venturi effect a perfume atomizer uses.

Indeed!
I enjoyed the discussion a lot yesterday. Thank you FC members on this thread for that!
Enjoyed it so much that the VAS monkey on my back is telling me to order the F2 + extras! But why? IDK. VAS!
I have an Argo from Arizer. Is the F2 that kind of different? Or is it more of the same? Is it a nice addition to my vape collection? Yes, it is?
So now. Monkey says. Just order. Fury 2!

Enjoyed it so much that the VAS monkey on my back is telling me to order the F2 + extras! But why? IDK. VAS!
I have an Argo from Arizer. Is the F2 that kind of different? Or is it more of the same? Is it a nice addition to my vape collection? Yes, it is?
So now. Monkey says. Just order. Fury 2!

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Understood. Thinking about it makes it seem more and more like a good idea. Which is the risk you run when you start reading longer threads on vapes you don't know.......they got long for one of two reasons and this one ain't no turkey.........

F2 is, I think, a more personal vape. Maybe 2 in a pinch? It's power is more limited between charges since you can't swap in a new battery like ArGo. That said, F2 is better 'hands down' for pull it out of the pocket and go for it duty IMO. More compact, easier to 'palm' if that's important. Fits better in the pocket (less hard edges) and the cap works very well and is easy to use.

My ArGo is around somewhere, I just don't recall where. I went looking for it a few days back, but stumbled to a different vape that needed some use.....

Indeed!
I enjoyed the discussion a lot yesterday. Thank you FC members on this thread for that!
Enjoyed it so much that the VAS monkey on my back is telling me to order the F2 + extras! But why? IDK. VAS!
I have an Argo from Arizer. Is the F2 that kind of different? Or is it more of the same? Is it a nice addition to my vape collection? Yes, it is?
So now. Monkey says. Just order. Fury 2!

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Monkey 2 in agreement! F2 still gets a lot of out and about work no matter my other options.

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced a temp regulator malfunction with their Fury 2 as of late.
Mine worked perfectly for 10 or so loads, then started taking forever to heat to barely a vaping temp. The readout still shows temps increasing and holding as normal, but the oven is clearly much cooler than the screen meter indicates.

Wondering if this can somehow be remedied with a "factory reset", before I give up and contact HR.

I did indeed purchase a lightly used F2 from HR the other day. To boot and for $10 more, if I chose, they let me choose the bundle glass pieces as well, which I did. It was a no-brainer decision. I opted for the WPA and Bubbler 2.0. I figure I'll relegate the Snap to home use and use it with either of the glass pieces. It should be here in a couple of days. I'll be happy with a more secure standard MP since I enjoy that a lot. Of course the mini glass forthcoming will be my first in the vaping realm (I've used glass before with friends who have) so I'm a bit excited to have a couple new drawing methods too.

And I know the unit needs to be heated up before inserting any glass. HR and my buddy who has one reminded me. That will be different but a welcomed new experience.

The glass doesn't even fit into the bowl until it's heated up, so that's easy to remember. Just don't forget to remove it after a session. It can get stuck if it cools down in there.

I usually just use the standard mp for convenience but I had to get my glass pieces out after reading your post. I like the WPA the best. It's nice and sturdy, easy to use and works well. I've never used it with water, though. I should probably try that sometime.

Don't put too much water in the bubbler or you'll get some in your mouth. Tiny little amount. I usually put too much in. It works dry, too, but since it's the bubbler I figure I should put some water in it.

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced a temp regulator malfunction with their Fury 2 as of late.
Mine worked perfectly for 10 or so loads, then started taking forever to heat to barely a vaping temp. The readout still shows temps increasing and holding as normal, but the oven is clearly much cooler than the screen meter indicates.

Wondering if this can somehow be remedied with a "factory reset", before I give up and contact HR.

Thanks.

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That sounds like a defective device (bolded text above).
Reach out to @HealthyRips.com and they will make things right ASAP.

Sorry, but I just can’t let the Fury thread languish on the second page! For anyone on the fence you should buy one! I’m a VapCap guy mostly, but who could want a better electric vape than this? The small/efficient bowl size, the big clouds, the quick heat up, the tiny size, the great dosing capsules and glass attachments, the lovely taste and easy of use. It’s got stealthy e-cig looks, comes from a reliable company and is Great value!

Sorry, but I just can’t let the Fury thread languish on the second page! For anyone on the fence you should buy one! I’m a VapCap guy mostly, but who could want a better electric vape than this? The small/efficient bowl size, the big clouds, the quick heat up, the tiny size, the great dosing capsules and glass attachments, the lovely taste and easy of use. It’s got stealthy e-cig looks, comes from a reliable company and is Great value!

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Maybe it's because too many of us are enjoying them too much and there's no real problems to hash out? Still you raise a good point, being near the top helps folks wondering by get on board...... Keeping the pump primed as it were?

Maybe we should work this in shifts? Some fraction of us put the F2 down for each day and post? It's my idea so I don't have to do it..........