At this point I scaled, balled, and packaged dough balls for refrigeration. Reinhart says to refrigerate at least 12 hours. The following pie was refrigerated 24 hours, reballed 4 hours prior to bake, and then taken out to warm at room temp 90 minutes prior to bake. Extremely easy, strong dough to work with...loaded with bubbles. One of the better pizzas I've eaten after 1 day of refrigeration, I will try one dough ball a day for the next 5 days...beautiful color, nice crispness on bottom, very tasty. As per recipe this 12 ounce dough ball is stretched to 12 inches.

I went back to American Pie and compared the recipe given there (at page 114) with the one at the Pizza Quest website and there are some differences. However, it is hard to say whether the current version of the recipe reflects things that he learned from users of the original recipe in his book. For example, Peter does not any longer call for the dough (in his latest NY style dough recipe) to pass the windowpane test. Another difference is that he specifies a weight of dough for a particular pizza size (12 ounces for a 12" pizza and 18 ounces for a 15"-16" size). In his original recipe, he said to divide the finished dough into three equal dough balls (for 12" pizzas). If you add up the weights of ingredients for the latest version, you will notice that the final weight is 39.68 ounces, which is not much different than I originally calculated. That means that there is likely to be some dough left over, minus any bowl residue. But using 12 ounces of dough for a 12" pizza or 18 ounces of dough for a 15"-16" pizza gets one closer to the thickness of a typical NY style pizza. Before, the thickness would have been closer to an American style pizza. To me, now the Reinhart NY style dough formulation looks more like a thinner, more hydrated version of a Papa John's emergency dough formulation, such as described, for example, at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. I had experimented with a more highly hydrated version of a PJ clone pizza, but the finished crust was more breadlike than what I experienced with real PJ crusts.

There are other differences between the two recipes but I do not deem them to materially affect the results that one is likely to get using either recipe.

I like the reinhart NY recipe and a few others also. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.0.html Did you use Bread flour? Looking at my notes this was the American pie book recipe from a while back. (yikes 09! some pics gottta go) Please post your daily findings with each dough Not sure how your pizza can get much better but lets see? Pie looks fantastic!John

I went back to American Pie and compared the recipe given there (at page 114) with the one at the Pizza Quest website and there are some differences. However, it is hard to say whether the current version of the recipe reflects things that he learned from users of the original recipe in his book. For example, Peter does not any longer call for the dough (in his latest NY style dough recipe) to pass the windowpane test. Another difference is that he specifies a weight of dough for a particular pizza size (12 ounces for a 12" pizza and 18 ounces for a 15"-16" size). In his original recipe, he said to divide the finished dough into three equal dough balls (for 12" pizzas). If you add up the weights of ingredients for the latest version, you will notice that the final weight is 39.68 ounces, which is not much different than I originally calculated. That means that there is likely to be some dough left over, minus any bowl residue. But using 12 ounces of dough for a 12" pizza or 18 ounces of dough for a 15"-16" pizza gets one closer to the thickness of a typical NY style pizza. Before, the thickness would have been closer to an American style pizza. To me, now the Reinhart NY style dough formulation looks more like a thinner, more hydrated version of a Papa John's emergency dough formulation, such as described, for example, at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. I had experimented with a more highly hydrated version of a PJ clone pizza, but the finished crust was more breadlike than what I experienced with real PJ crusts.

There are other differences between the two recipes but I do not deem them to materially affect the results that one is likely to get using either recipe.

Peter

Thanks for the info PeterPlease understand that I'm flying blind here...I'm from a little town in Washington State and have never tasted nor seen alot of these pizzas before...so I don't have a preconceived notion of what they should look or taste like...but I'm an expert on what I like to eat...this is good eatin!!

I'll let you all know how this dough progresses throughout the week.By then Dave I will know which dough is better for your oven...but I'm guessing the classic dough is going to be the one.

This dough was refrigerated about 48 hours...it was reballed 5 hours prior to baking, and was taken out of refrigeration to warm up 90 minutes prior to bake. We had some tender asparagus spears available so it was time for a breakfast pizza! The pizza was simply amazing! It was a little less crisp, a little more bready, alot more tender, and was very tasty!!!

This dough was refrigerated about 48 hours...it was reballed 5 hours prior to baking, and was taken out of refrigeration to warm up 90 minutes prior to bake. We had some tender asparagus spears available so it was time for a breakfast pizza! The pizza was simply amazing! It was a little less crisp, a little more bready, alot more tender, and was very tasty!!!

John

John,

Your same dough different day breakfast pizza with asparagus spears looks delicious! How do you think the Reinhart NY style compares to the Reinhart classic style so far? Will be interested in seeing how your other NY style doughs work out in terms of the taste of the crust, crispness and crumb structure.

John,Those look fantastic!Great work and I look forward to your pies on here!

I wanted to share with you,For NY style,keep the slices thin.I dont mean paper thin,but thin enough so if you can fold a slice in half,it all comes together.Being from NY and eating pizzas there my whole life,keeping it thin was key.If I make my pies and slices a little thicker,say kinda like Dominos or Papa Johns thickness,it doesn't taste the same.Sorry to use a chain for an example,but its all I could think of.

Some time ago, I conducted Google searches to see if I could identify the typical or most common sizes of NY style pizzas. I did this mainly through searches of menus of NYC pizza operators located in NYC. I intentionally excluded places outside of NYC. Since you have had so much experience eating NY style pizzas, can you tell me the most common sizes used for such pizzas? Also, is there a particular size pizza that is used for slices? And are there size differences between the street NY style and the elite NY style?

I don't want to interrupt, but I did similar research when I had a 4 month job in NY a few years ago and lots of time to kill. It seems as if most slice joints are cutting up a 20 inch pizza, quite a few were even larger at 22in. Interestingly many pizzerias gave you an 18 inch pizza when you order a "large", which I though was kind of sneaky since you are looking at all these giant slice pies in the plastic/glass case. Elite pizzerias tended to be smaller with 16 -18 being pretty common for the largest pizza. Sound right Bill?

NormaI'm going to have to experiment a bunch more, but for just this batch of dough...I will go with this recipe over the classic dough...simply for simplicity reasons. Mix 4 rest 5, mix 3 ...scale, ball, clean up and your done. The quality of these are also primo. As good as the pizza was on day 1, the difference between that one and the ones on the following two day was monumental.

BillOne day I'll make a trip to New York to do nothing but eat...until then...?

The following pie was refrigerated for 3 days...it was reballed 6 hours prior to baking, and was taken out for 2 hours to set at room temp. This one was amazing!!!

I live in NYC. I am pretty sure that the typical diameter of the large-size pie, from which (eight) slices are taken, is 18". I would estimate crust thickness at 1bout 1/4". Here are a couple of photos of typical New York style pizzas.

NormaI'm going to have to experiment a bunch more, but for just this batch of dough...I will go with this recipe over the classic dough...simply for simplicity reasons. Mix 4 rest 5, mix 3 ...scale, ball, clean up and your done. The quality of these are also primo. As good as the pizza was on day 1, the difference between that one and the ones on the following two day was monumental.

Some time ago, I conducted Google searches to see if I could identify the typical or most common sizes of NY style pizzas. I did this mainly through searches of menus of NYC pizza operators located in NYC. I intentionally excluded places outside of NYC. Since you have had so much experience eating NY style pizzas, can you tell me the most common sizes used for such pizzas? Also, is there a particular size pizza that is used for slices? And are there size differences between the street NY style and the elite NY style?

Peter

Peter,

The best knowledge I have from NY slices,most of them were about 18 inch pies.It depended on where you went.A lot of NY street places,will make a bunch of different topped pizzas and put them on display,so you can choose which ones you wanted a slice from,to reheat again.My favorite places had 18 inch pies ready to reheat as slices.Some had 16 inches,but most of the time it was 18 inches around.

I cannot recall anyone having it smaller than 16 for slice sales for street slices.

As far as the thickness goes,I have no idea what is the ballpark right now.I'm kicking myself because today,I went to Harbor Freight tool store,to check out some sales.I was planning on getting a hand held digital caliper,to take thickness sizes for my favorite pizzas I make at home,that are the clones of my favorite NY places.

While I was there at HF stores,it was so crowded,because of a sale going,I forgot to look for it and I ended up leaving without buying anything else.

Even if I use a Lehmann's formula of a thickness factor of .10 or something,I honestly do not know if I'm thicker or thinner when stretching the dough.I'm still hit and miss at times.

Gschwim took some nice pics of a NY style slice.Those looks about typical right there.We need to keep in mind though,not all places are the same or consistent every time.It sometimes depend on the person making the pies for that work shift.There are sometimes a few workers that make them a little smaller,dont stretch them out as large,affecting how thick the slices are going to be.

As far as more elite NY style pies go,The few I can recall,were always a bit thicker than the NY street style pies.

Of course they did not always advertise themselves as Neo or elite or anything other than their store name,"Blank-Pizza".I actually never heard of the term until I joined the PM forum.

There was a place I really liked,They DID made/advertised their pizzas as Neapolitan style pies.The pies were smaller and a little thicker than the NY street slices you can get anywhere.Their largest was 15 inches or less.I cannot recall,but it was not as big.Slices were thicker but still fantastic.

Terry Deane, one of our members who lived in NYC for seven years and later opened up his own pizzeria in Canada specializing in the NY style, once reported at Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg64050/topicseen.html#msg64050 that he had never had or seen a 16" pizza. He also noted the 14" size. As you will see from my post (Reply 44) that followed, it seemed like the 14" and 18" sizes were pretty much standard although I did find examples of 16" sizes. Later, I saw that 20", 22" and sometimes larger sizes were used but these appeared to be outliers. The 18" size seemed to be pretty standard for slices only.

I raised the above matter since it would be easy to modify the Reinhart NY style dough formulation to be usable for the traditional NY size pizzas, and crust thickness as well. I would perhaps use a thickness factor of about 0.085 for the street style and something less for the elite style. It would be interesting to see if the finished pizzas would have a smaller rim and "look" more like traditional NY style pizzas. That is something that even John could do without having to go all the way to NYC to find out .

Terry Deane, one of our members who lived in NYC for seven years and later opened up his own pizzeria in Canada specializing in the NY style, once reported at Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg64050/topicseen.html#msg64050 that he had never had or seen a 16" pizza. He also noted the 14" size. As you will see from my post (Reply 44) that followed, it seemed like the 14" and 18" sizes were pretty much standard although I did find examples of 16" sizes. Later, I saw that 20", 22" and sometimes larger sizes were used but these appeared to be outliers. The 18" size seemed to be pretty standard for slices only.

I raised the above matter since it would be easy to modify the Reinhart NY style dough formulation to be usable for the traditional NY size pizzas, and crust thickness as well. I would perhaps use a thickness factor of about 0.085 for the street style and something less for the elite style. It would be interesting to see if the finished pizzas would have a smaller rim and "look" more like traditional NY style pizzas. That is something that even John could do without having to go all the way to NYC to find out .

Peter

Peter if it's all the same to you...I'd still like to check it out in person...I'm just sayin!!! The pizzas I'm getting with this recipe definitely don't resemble the pictures above...so, I'm thinking maybe we should simply change the name of the pizza....cuz, these are sincerely good pies. The first thing I notice is that the bottoms brown evenly all the way across with no blotches. These doughs were made with ADM high gluten flour...this week I'll try a batch with bread flour.So, here is a 4 day old dough, reballed 6 hours prior to bake, and brought out the fridge 2 hours prior to bake. Also, all of these were baked at 540 to 550 degrees...my ovens are a little cooler than normal.John

Your pizza tonight looks great as usual. I bet it even tasted better tonight from the longer ferment. I have some of that ADM high-gluten flour. I might have to give it a try in the formula you are using in the next few weeks.

You know NormaI've been having so much fun with the neo neapolitan and then the classic dough, that I hoped this current recipe wouldn't turn out to be much. I mean there is something comforting or sexy or something about having hands on contact with your dough (stretch and folds). So, I admit, I secretly hoped this recipe would be a one time try and out....but no such luck. After 24 hours in the fridge, the pizza is amazing!!! I'll see what my last dough of the batch gives me tomorrow....I already know it will be killer!!!!! And then I'll see if I can get as good a result with bread flour this week. Best wishes in all your trials Norma!! Best of eating to you!!

You know NormaI've been having so much fun with the neo neapolitan and then the classic dough, that I hoped this current recipe wouldn't turn out to be much. I mean there is something comforting or sexy or something about having hands on contact with your dough (stretch and folds). So, I admit, I secretly hoped this recipe would be a one time try and out....but no such luck. After 24 hours in the fridge, the pizza is amazing!!! I'll see what my last dough of the batch gives me tomorrow....I already know it will be killer!!!!! And then I'll see if I can get as good a result with bread flour this week. Best wishes in all your trials Norma!! Best of eating to you!!

John

John,

I am glad you found all of Peter Reinhartís doughs and really like them. I wondered when you said you tried out Reinhartís NY style dough how you would like it. I was then amazed at the results. Since you posted you like the stretch and folds, did you see the new article on the Pizza Quest website about Peter Reinhart explaining about the stretch and folds and what they do? I will be waiting to see your results with bread flour.

scott123

Terry Deane, one of our members who lived in NYC for seven years and later opened up his own pizzeria in Canada specializing in the NY style, once reported at Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg64050/topicseen.html#msg64050 that he had never had or seen a 16" pizza. He also noted the 14" size. As you will see from my post (Reply 44) that followed, it seemed like the 14" and 18" sizes were pretty much standard although I did find examples of 16" sizes. Later, I saw that 20", 22" and sometimes larger sizes were used but these appeared to be outliers. The 18" size seemed to be pretty standard for slices only.

The territory for NY style pizza is basically a doughnut. Manhattan may have a few Neapolitan places and a handful of coal joints but for NY style slices, it's pretty much a wasteland. Manhattan, with their higher overheads and wealthier clientele is going to put out a different product. No offense to Terry, but his perspective is more of a Manhattan one. The 18" standard for both slices and whole pies is more of a Manhattan thing and not really representative of the style. As you move outwards from Manhattan, slice pies get larger. Since it isn't feasible for these pizzerias to sell 20"-22" slice pies as large whole pies, they're going to have smaller dough balls for large pies. Large pies can be 18" or they can be 16". 18" may have a slight edge, but I don't think it's enough to make 16" an outlier.

John,Practically speaking, a 12 hour dough wouldn't spend more than about 9.5 - 10 hours in the fridge since it would take a bit less than an hour to measure, mix, fold, scale and ball plus a couple of hours coming to room temp before baking. Prrobably even less since I don't accomplish much before 8am but rarely eat after 8pm. Still, it's worth a shot and bound to be better than our local delivery dreck.Dave