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What's bigger than the Trump?

Thread Started January 10 at 12:27PM

What's BIGGER than the Trump?

Nope Sorry, it's NOT Oprah. Though, I seem to remember some crazy, out of touch with "reality" , delusional follower of "fake news", positing the very idea of a President Oprah to y'all, what was it ? About a year ago? Maybe we should revive that thread. ( P.s. Will Oprah disavow Harvey Weinstein?)

Rather than arguing what you or I, or anybody else might think that Trump is. Or what Trump isn't, or even , for right now, what he even REALLY is. It doesn't really seem all that important compared to other things. I think we might all be better served if we were to take a step back and look at the bigger issues. After all, many things in this GLORIOUS universe are much, much bigger than any one mortal man.

What could be looked at with much more scrutiny is : " What is the reality that is undeniably being manifest for all to see?"

For starters, we seem to not even be able to discern what TRUTH is anymore. Especially in regards to what we would call our news. This, apparent confusion juxtaposed over us STILL being quite aware of, and able to discern good from evil... Especially when we see it, or experience it first hand. Yet,. we hate the idea of there being absolutes.... And many, certainly hate the idea of there being an absolute authority on what we would call good and what we would call evil.
There is also an undeniable split among the people. I can only speak from my Americentric viewpoint, but this split occurs most definitely down a most decisive line on whether or not they believe in the Biblical God.

Now, enter that old Manual, the Bible. Despite what one would think of this book or even what one would want to think about this book, their IS also in our world a most decisive manifestation of a two way split of what the Bible would call believers, or the faithful followers of the God of the Bible, and then what the Bible would tell us , to put it most simply, followers of something else. It is though, only a coincidence that what the Bible tells us is good, and what it tells us is evil, with only a few , most notable and well known exceptions, STILL in line with the average man's sensibilities.

But to leave that old Manual behind...
This split amongst people ....Is it becoming so manifest and so decisive, that it almost seems like it could very easily grow into a larger split or fracture , maybe one with much more dramatic and consequential implications? What if, say a worldview shattering revelation were to suddenly beset humanity? Ore maybe even beyond TBTB's usual and beloved tool of War, and even Nuclear bombs and or EMPs One like say .... Aliens. Aliens reportedly from outer space somewhere. Aliens from another galaxy. What would this suddenly do to many- a -worldview? Bible believing, or not. ( Does the Bible predict AND even explain this?) Would this shatter THAT two way splinter so much that suddenly a world wide "coming together" would seem the most productive and "prudent" thing for ALL of humanity to embrace?

Would there then?, become such a state to humanity that anyone who would refuse this new globalized worldview will suddenly find themselves lodged up against, or in opposition to those who wish to operate in this system? What belief system will the one side embrace? What belief system will the other side embrace? Which side's world view is right? Which side's is crazy? How will they be able to function together? Will one side have to be eliminated?
Will one side need to be marked with something? Something that tells everyone something like : "Yes. Yes, I embrace this....What's a good term? This anti - Bible, or anti manual, or anti "The Word" worldview, or system. Yes, yes I love it!".
" We HAVE NO KING BUT ... CAESAR!"

This possibility might give heed to some.

In this light here are some excerpts from the old Manual , well worth pondering:

Then he said to them: ?Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. ?But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. And so you will bear testimony to me. But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Everyone will hate you because of me. Stand firm, and you will win life.
Luke 21:10‭-‬17‭, ‬19 NIV

I'd be remiss without including one of my favorites:

?I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
John 16:33 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/jhn.16.33.NIV

Bonus : ( I know y'all missed me .Lol)

The Jesus hunt for perspective-

I have had several discussion/arguments with several atheistic/agnostic types online over the years. In these, I often try to make the point to them that usually, the reason that they can't , or won't see the presence of God around them, in their world or in their lives, is because they can't, or won't see the possibility of God to even exist. In short, it is a matter of their perspective, or Worldview.

In the spirit of the old adage, "The more things change, the more they stay the same", or the famous verse from King Solomon that says that there is nothing new under the sun, I will make the point that even Jesus himself talked about this very worldview/perspective idea quite a bit. How many times did He ask His Disciples "What about you, who do YOU say that I am?". He asked this of His Disciples, the ones who, you would think, would have had their own perspectives and worldviews greatly rocked, shaped or shaken. This, by them personally having witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of miraculous things performed right there, in front of their eyes, by Jesus. The fact that Jesus still had to ask them something like, " Who do you say that I am?", What might this be telling us? Is it speaking VOLUMES to us? Could it be telling us much about the nature of God? And the nature of man? And even what Jesus knew then, and still knows today about how very fickle our own human perspectives can be. Perhaps this fickleness can also be illustrated by the Israelites of the Exodus, who personally witnessed the miracles of their God when HE led then out of Egypt, and how quickly it was that their perspective of disbelief in HIM set upon them.

When the chief priests asked Jesus "Tell us by what authority You are doing these things. Or, who is the one who gave You this authority?"*
What did Jesus counter their question with?
He wanted to know what exactly their perspective was in regards to their beliefs on WHERE exactly John the Baptist's authority came from. He KNEW that THIS very thing would dictate whether he was wasting His own breath or not. Again, this, he asked to some people who I am quite sure, ALSO personally witnessed many of the miraculous things that Jesus did. Jesus' reply was doing so much more than just rebelliously sticking it to the scribes by not giving an answer to them about His authority. He was exposing that universal Truth in regards to the importance of our perspective. And, putting it into the "record" for all of His future disciples.

*
On one of the days while He was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted Him, and they spoke, saying to Him, "Tell us by what authority You are doing these things, or who is the one who gave You this authority?" Jesus answered and said to them, "I will also ask you a question, and you tell Me: Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?" They reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say, 'Why did you not believe him?' But if we say, 'From men,' all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet." So they answered that they did not know where it came from. And Jesus said to them, "Nor will I tell you by what authority I do these things."
Luke 20:1-8 NASB

Another interesting aspect of this "non answer" to Jesus and from Jesus, to the scribes and high priests , is that their own perspective was that they were too afraid to answer the question because of a fear of the people around them (as opposed to a fear of the God before them) or by their own preconceived notions about God, and the coming Messiah ( that they were expecting to show up) , and their own attempts to deceive Jesus and themselves.

This idea that our belief and hope in Him begins with our own perspectives is even solidified with the following verse, where Jesus tells us that the Kingdom of God starts right here, right now and through us and out of us through our faith in HIM.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17-21 KJV

Of course, the great "perspective adjuster" and trainer is known to us as The Bible. But, I can just hear it now....many agnostic/atheistic types saying something like "Well Doug, you are just using some kind of empty circular reasoning, or even some self fulfilling prophecy to make your point about believing in your god.". It may very well be a sort of circular reasoning, but it most assuredly is not "empty". Anyone who says this, has quite simply NOT studied the Bible very much.
It IS also, God's very own "Self fulfilling prophecy". We, being created in God's image, are served quite well by imitating this kind of self fulfilling prophecy that God's manual for us has modeled to us over and over through the centuries, with the foreshadowing and continual playing out of His redemptive power "pattern" being woven in it throughout the ages. The fact of His People living it and writing it all down throughout the centuries is breathtakingly unfathomable and undeniable. This repeating redemptive pattern most importantly being played out , ultimately in the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, as put forth in the Gospels. The redemption of mankind, for example is foreshadowed by Psalm 22, some thousand plus years earlier, to name just ONE of the thousands of remarkable, recurring patterns in the great "perspective adjuster". The Lord stands at our door and knocks. Will we let him in? To begin in us this great perspective adjustment.

In this light, here's a visual exercise for an atheist to try out:. First, visualize that circle of this alleged circular reasoning and insert your whole being right in the center of it. Now, visualize juxtaposing over that circle, God's self-fulfilling prophecy of the cross. Now, from THAT perspective, if you look up just a little bit, you just might find yourself right in the cross hairs of the Lord.

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 10, 2018 02:53 PM
Doug, as I said before, if he actually, really knocked at my door, in front of a million witnesses, yes I would let him in. I'm not letting anyone in who's only got a book the same length as Arthur Conan Doyle's Complete collection of Sherlock Homes, and tells me he is an agent of said lord of all creation.

In short, I'm really not going to believe the evidence of someone else's perception over that of my own any more than you would. And you really, really need to stop telling people who have simply reached a different conclusion about this book that they haven't really read it. It's patronising and over-simplistic to say the least, apart from being, in many cases, including my own, dead wrong.

Yes, I've read it. From cover to cover. And I've acknowledged its value as a historical document, but it is based on perception. Nothing within it leads me to believe it was not, and could not have been written by man. Several member, perhaps, but men, nevertheless.

You believe differently. That's fine. You will not change my mind, as I will not change yours. I've said many times what it would take. What would it take for you to see the truth as I see it. Nothing I suspect. So, whilst interesting, this becomes a circular conversation, and if I stand in the middle of it and look up, I still see only the beautiful stars, millions of them. I am not in anyone's crosshairs, I am only in the light of the fascinating and endless space, of which there is still so much to explore.

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 10, 2018 03:20 PM
<< Modifed January 10 at 3:25PM >>What's BIGGER than the Trump?

His ego?

What is the reality that is undeniably being manifest for all to see?

Religion still has no viable answers?

And many, certainly hate the idea of there being an absolute authority on what we would call good and what we would call evil.

Correct. Lots of people hate ideas that aren't true.

It is though, only a coincidence that what the Bible tells us is good, and what it tells us is evil, with only a few , most notable and well known exceptions, STILL in line with the average man's sensibilities.

A few?

Stoning people to death for working on the Sabbath is GOOD.

Ditto for arguing with parents.

Same for falling in love with someone of the same sex.

And let's not forget refusing to marry your rapist.

Slavery is GOOD.

War is GOOD.

Kidnapping women and forcing them into sexual slavery is GOOD.

How many more would you like? I think we have differing ideas on the "average man's sensibilities."

Aliens. Aliens reportedly from outer space somewhere. Aliens from another galaxy. What would this suddenly do to many- a -worldview? Bible believing, or not. ( Does the Bible predict AND even explain this?)

Erich Von Daniken is SO 1970s.

Would this shatter THAT two way splinter so much that suddenly a world wide "coming together" would seem the most productive and "prudent" thing for ALL of humanity to embrace?

Ignoring the obvious - without religion there would be no splinter.

Would there then, become such a state to humanity that anyone who would refuse this new globalized worldview will suddenly find themselves lodged up against, or in opposition to those who wish to operate in this system? What belief system will the one side embrace? What belief system will the other side embrace? Which side's world view is right? Which side's is crazy? How will they be able to function together? Will one side have to be eliminated?
Will one side need to be marked with something? Something that tells everyone something like : "Yes. Yes, I embrace this....What's a good term? This anti - Bible, or anti manual, or anti "The Word" worldview, or system. Yes, yes I love it!".
" We HAVE NO KING BUT ... CAESAR!"

Why is religion so "us and them"?

In this light, here's a visual exercise for an atheist to try out:. First, visualize that circle of this alleged circular reasoning and insert your whole being right in the center of it. Now, visualize juxtaposing over that circle, God's self-fulfilling prophecy of the cross. Now, from THAT perspective, if you look up just a little bit, you just might find yourself right in the cross hairs of the Lord.

BANG! (LOL)

So this is what it boils down to? God is like one of those psychopathic accountants that gets their jollies from dressing up in camo gear and running around taking pot-shots at creatures that are no match for them? Great analogy there, DJ!

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 10, 2018 04:09 PM
I wouldn't say I'm 'anti' the bible. Not believing a book is the word of a deity isn't the same as being 'anti' it. I'm not against its existence, despite what it may sometimes look like. But you, DJ, seem to be very 'anti' the existence of anyone who does not see this book as a 'manual' for existence, the answer to life, the universe and everything.

And I wonder why? Why do you think peace can ONLY be achieved if we all see things as you do? Why couldn't peace be achieved by us all simply not killing other people who don't share the same world view? Couldn't peace be achieved if we all said, 'you do you'?

Of course, that includes us atheists. Should we really take so much interest in disputing your god, or should we just leave you to it? I guess maybe we would if you weren't so inclined to have your religion ruling us all. Our lack of religion doesn't insist you live your lives any other way than how you currently do. You are absolutely free to not get married to someone of the same sex, go to your church, not get divorced, live your life like Christ. We aren't trying to stop you. All we are trying to do is grant others the permission to marry whomsoever they wish (as long as it is a consenting adult), not go to church, live their lives like Buddha, or according to the rules of Vishnu, or even as a Jedi.

What makes the division is not what you believe or what I believe. It's the encroachment of what you or I believe into one or another's lives to the point of denying you the right to believe as you see fit. And from what I can see, the existence of atheism in your country is not, in any way, preventing you from believing as you do, and acting accordingly. And nor should it. But your Christianity should not affect the lives of those who do not share your beliefs to the extent that they are not free to marry as they choose, or do what they choose with their own body.

If we can reach that happy conclusion, then we will have peace. But while we are still wanting the 'other side' to believe as we do, and do as we do, or they are not welcome, then there will be division, and there will be war, and there will be death. The answer is not to bring us all, whether we want it or not, to your religion, or to my lack of it. The answer is to live together with our separate ideas, under general laws for our mutual benefit, surely?

Though I do consider myself a Christian, and one that follows, as much as humanly possible, what we are told to do in scripture...and most certainly not perfect..I find there is a difference of opinion, even for those that also consider themselves to be Christian...For that reason, its not right for anyone to try and force their understanding of scripture on anyone else.

Yes I will answer every question asked, but I'm not here to teach anyone, anything...that's not my place..

No one here, wants to be taught, no one wants to be made to feel they must follow the way of life of someone else.

The main thing in life is to be a decent human being...if I'm doing that because of my faith...that's good for me, and if someone else is doing that for no reason other than they are just decent people, that's fine too.

The Bible is the book of life for me, its God's word told to us through the work of one of His disciples, if its different for you...I see nothing at all wrong with that...when I write a poem based on my faith, in the author's notes I try not to forget to let the reader know that I respect that they may believe differently than I do...sometimes I even add a little note saying "but we can still be friends"...lol

People don't have to dislike each other because of their differences...my sister is not a JW, yet we also get alone...its the same with some of the other people I know...personally I'm not here to be taught, simply to discuss...and there is a difference...

Who the heck is Von Daniken? ( Name sounds familiar, I'll have to look into him)
Yes he is very 70s I'm sure. I hope your Alien perspective isn't from the 70' s as well.

Craig, I know that you have told me that you are morally superior to God, based upon nothing but the moral good sense that is in your brain. But this is were I think you stand:

You stand in the wilderness, in a beautiful forest of trees with your nose lodged right up next to two or three , huge immoveable trees ( your moral good sense) , you stand at the tree and knock... Maybe getting hit in the head by a few acorns?. Here, you never will meet or see ANYTHING , except perhaps the god of the druids. Lol. If you do the hard work of chopping down the trees, and seeing the whole glorious forrest, then perhaps you could be enticed into shaping the tree into a door that can be answered.

And then you ask "why does religion need to be so "us and them?". That's a great question. Perhaps my response to Emma may shed a little light on that. Pink Floyd is so 70's .lol

Hey Emma,

You said:
"Doug, as I said before, if he actually, really knocked at my door, in front of a million witnesses, yes I would let him in. I'm not letting anyone in who's only got a book the same length as Arthur Conan Doyle's Complete collection of Sherlock Homes, and tells me he is an agent of said lord of all creation. "

Why do you need a million witnesses? Although that day is coming, do you really believe THAT is How the Lord would work?

It really doesn't matter what I, or anyone else says about the Bible. It really does stand as it's very own witness. Anyone who doesn't see this , sorry to say, just hasn't REALLY studied it. You say you appreciate it for its historical documentation. But also included in it is the most undeniable prophetic documentation... That if you truly studied is more than just some inkblot test.

You also say:

"Of course, that includes us atheists. Should we really take so much interest in disputing your god, or should we just leave you to it? I guess maybe we would if you weren't so inclined to have your religion ruling us all.
Our lack of religion doesn't insist you live your lives any other way than how you currently do. You are absolutely free to not get married to someone of the same sex, go to your church, not get divorced, live your life like Christ. We aren't trying to stop you. All we are trying to do is grant others the permission to marry whomsoever they wish (as long as it is a consenting adult), "

That is a fair thing to say, on its face and in a perfect world, I agree fully. but unfortunately the great kind of world that you site and the real world are two different things. Yes, it's true that probably at least 90 percent ...Well unfortunately now a days..... More like 85 percent of the people in the world are perfectly content to live in such a world.
But....Here we go again. Lol. The problem comes from the ones who have ascended to the top of the power of the world. ( The ones, and their ancestors, who met Lucifer on the mountaintop and took his deal). THEY are the ones forcing their religion onto the unsuspecting masses. THEY are the ones manipulating and deceiving. THEY are the ones that deceive, kill and destroy. THEY are the ones manipulating the American economy into a place where ALL OF THE FINANCIAL power is located in and held by the Communist Chinese. ( Or that was their plan) THEY are the ones programming the masses into hating on, and attacking in a myriad of ways, Christians and basic Christian values. THEY are the ones trying to force America into a technological technocracy overlayed upon a godless communism , manipulating and programming us through pop culture, media, "medicine" and our "education" system. It would be interesting to get a Chinese, Christian in this modern era's perspective on all of that... But we probably can't..... Oh if their organs could only speak.
I was going to go on. You know I can. Lol. But here is some good advice for both you and Craig. This is the path that I took anyways. Stop studying the Bible. Don't even care about what it says. Instead, start studying WHAT EXACTLY it is that the True powers that be in the world believe. What they , and their ancestors have written about, said and practiced) Start studying the TRUTH behind the American Money ( banking) system, and the Federal reserve system. ( Andy Gause...A non- Christian , is a great resource). Start studying the TRUTH behind medicine , or what more specifically would be called Western allopathic medicine. I could give you umpteen sources on this. You start with these Truths it will change your life. I know it did for me. The number one thing being a peace that passes understanding. Something seemingly lacking these days. Hey, maybe God also hates this "us and them" even much more than you guys do. Maybe the Manual is His way of telling us how He is going about eliminating it.
Prayers and Blessings!

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 11, 2018 12:27 PM
Victoria, those are some good points. I really AM NOT teaching anyone, nor am I forcing my beliefs onto anyone. I am discussing the world from my perspective... ( Admittedly in hopes of an awakening to some things ....To even you my dear), but everyone here is free to think and say anything that they feel lead to think and say. Praise the Lord.

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 11, 2018 01:11 PM
DJ, the problem is that there isn't any point in discussing with you what I have read and studied, because if I haven't come to the exact same conclusion as you about it, and it hasn't changed my life, you'll just tell me I haven't really read and studied it. If we're going to go on like that, it's really a bit pointless.

Unlike you, I don't think communism is an awful thing. Because I've studied it. A lot. I'm not referring to communist dictatorships, I'm referring to collective communism. Do I think that is what is happening in China, or what did happen in Russia, or Cuba? No. But communism isn't really about the one-party rule those places made it into.

I do not deny what you think about those who rule the country, but I don't think it has anything to do with godless luciferians. I think it is just people being people. Scum rises as much as cream. And it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if they were with your god, or anyone else's, they'd still do what they do, because that's what they do. It's people that screw it up every time, no matter what you believe. And if there really were a god, he wouldn't have designed us to be such idiots.

Yes, I would need 'millions of people', and a lot more besides, because I can't just write off centuries of study that tells me there's other explanations as some sort of evil plot.

But again, there's not much point, because I could point you to all this, indeed I have before. All the studies, all the logic, all the reasons behind my reasons, but you aren't going to look at it, are you? Because what YOU'VE studied and what you've looked at is right, and it doesn't lead you to the same conclusions as me, so it must be right and you must be right, and me and all the scientists, doctors, nurses and all the rest of it are wrong.

You are asking me to look into things I've already looked into many times, with a view to changing my life. What if I said to you, 'read this, that or the other, it will change your life'. Would it? No. Why? Because I'm sure you have done, and you've found it wanting. That's why you have taken the path you have. And that's fair enough.

I could tell you to look at the TRUTH about vaccines, medicine, Christianity. You wouldn't. Or you would but you wouldn't believe it. Because the truth to you is very different from the truth to me, and who you think is telling this truth is very different to who I think is telling it.

This is why I won't be coming around to your truth any time soon, nor you to mine. Because 'truth' is as much a matter of perception as anything else. It's like the 'truth' about global warming, the 'truth' about Trump, the 'truth' about just about anything. It depends who you talk to, and what you really trust.

So don't give me 'truth' as though that makes it so. It makes it so for you. And that's fine and dandy.

If you really want the 'truth', I'll give you a least of books to read, articles to view, videos to watch. But you won't find it there, because it won't agree with your truth. So it's pointless sharing it.

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 11, 2018 04:01 PM
<< Modifed January 11 at 8:47PM >>Sarkems,

I have to agree with you...again...it may not be that dj wants to teach...(which I seriously think he does)...but when nothing anyone else says is even considered, and there is always his alternative, then its teaching...and personally that doesn't make for a pleasing conversation...

We can learn from each other, simply because I think each of us has something to offer, we are all intelligent people, that's clear by the conversation...so this can easily be a conversation that can be enjoyed by all of us...

And not a constant effort to prove how wrong we are...actually I'm guilty sometimes, of having to make comments, because I want him to know what he says is just his opinion, not fact or truth as he sees it, but not as each of us see it...Faith is personal and we have to accept that...Like I've said continuously I will answer any questions asked, but I surely don't expect everyone here to believe in the way I live my life...

Now, if you get to personal like calling me ignorant and delusional, well, that's quite a different story and I'm going to say something, that may not be appreciated...

I find your comments interesting, you have thoughts that may not come to my mind, that's what makes it worth while even reading the posts here...although CD, has his own way of discussing things, I even agree with some of what he says...(not often)...lol...but he certainly does have a right to his own way of thinking...and when I agree with him, I'll certainly say so...

Not one of us knows everything there is to know...but...where my Faith is concerned nothing will change that..just as you prefer to live your life as an Atheist, and yet we can still be friends.. as an old lady and a young one..to me you're still a teenager...LOL...

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 11, 2018 07:04 PM
<< Modifed January 11 at 7:38PM >>...although CD, has his own way of discussing things

Really, Mrs Major? Do tell lol

I don't know what you mean by that, but if it's meant to imply I've ever called anyone here ignorant or delusional, or any other pejorative, I'd challenge you to find that post :)

DJ:

Of course I'm morally superior to God. I'm a long way behind many humans, but streets ahead of any deity you can probably think of. I can think of few less difficult goals one could set oneself. I'll not run through the list of things exhaustively yet again. I gave a few reasons just a couple of posts ago :)

RE: What's bigger than the Trump? Reply on January 11, 2018 09:06 PM
<< Modifed January 11 at 11:13PM >>CD, if it was you that had called me those names, I would have said so...it was DJ, that said exactly those words, about me...some time ago, and although I made myself quite clear as to what I thought of those comments, to him at the time..I do remember it...yes you do speak for yourself, clearly, and I have no problem with that, none at all, but there are times when I agree wholeheartedly with your words, and I will say that...(not that you need me to do so)..I do not believe all people have to be the same...all I would like for the world, is that people be left alone to serve whatever God they wish, and those that do not serve any also be left alone.

No I wasn't taking about you, it was DJ, who made that comment, concerning my beliefs, that's why I say even those that call themselves Christian can differ in their understanding of scripture...

The words live and let live really apply in my way of thinking...where religion is concerned...we'd all be happier...