Okay, so in the phone call that Phoenix made in the beginning of the game, he says, "Your target finally made a move." I'm guessing he was referring to the Phantom bombing the HAT-2 and whatnot?

Also, I know that Edgeworth told Phoenix to "keep an eye" on Blackquill after allowing him to prosecute cases, and I know that this was done so that they could - somehow? - work to prove his innocence. However, as the game shows, they were pretty much at the end of the line before anything was actually done. That is, if Aura hadn't taken hostages and demanded a retrial, Blackquill would have just been executed the next day without anything being done about UR-1.

I'm willing to accept that as just a contrivance of the plot - a way to make it AS TENSE AS POSSIBLE by having Blackquill acquitted the day before he's to be executed and all that - but I guess what I'm asking is: was there any semblance of a plan to fix the whole mess of Blackquill's conviction before the deus ex machina hostage situation? Haha.

Okay, so in the phone call that Phoenix made in the beginning of the game, he says, "Your target finally made a move." I'm guessing he was referring to the Phantom bombing the HAT-2 and whatnot?

Also, I know that Edgeworth told Phoenix to "keep an eye" on Blackquill after allowing him to prosecute cases, and I know that this was done so that they could - somehow? - work to prove his innocence. However, as the game shows, they were pretty much at the end of the line before anything was actually done. That is, if Aura hadn't taken hostages and demanded a retrial, Blackquill would have just been executed the next day without anything being done about UR-1.

I'm willing to accept that as just a contrivance of the plot - a way to make it AS TENSE AS POSSIBLE by having Blackquill acquitted the day before he's to be executed and all that - but I guess what I'm asking is: was there any semblance of a plan to fix the whole mess of Blackquill's conviction before the deus ex machina hostage situation? Haha.

I don't think so.

Sooo most likely a plot contrivance. I can live with that haha.

Another question (or just a topic for discussion, however you want to slice it):

Spoiler:

Maybe I missed something, but why exactly would Phantom!Fulbright implicate Athena with the lighter? He could just not have presented anything and let Starbuck take the fall. It seemed a bit risky - or just pointless - to drag out the investigation after that.

My thinking is that he was afraid that if he didn't present really conclusive evidence of someone's guilt, suspicion would eventually fall on him. At that point Cosmos' testimony was making it pretty clear that Starbuck wasn't the only possible suspect, and that at the very least further investigation would be required. Phantom obviously didn't want that, so he decided to pin the blame on Athena.

My second, more trivial idea is that it was also just simple revenge - Phantom wanted to get back at the kid who stabbed him and who had seen him at the crime scene all those years ago.

Maybe I missed something, but why exactly would Phantom!Fulbright implicate Athena with the lighter? He could just not have presented anything and let Starbuck take the fall. It seemed a bit risky - or just pointless - to drag out the investigation after that.

The reason was for the sake of the plot.

Duh.

Quote:

Spoiler:

My thinking is that he was afraid that if he didn't present really conclusive evidence of someone's guilt, suspicion would eventually fall on him. At that point Cosmos' testimony was making it pretty clear that Starbuck wasn't the only possible suspect, and that at the very least further investigation would be required. Phantom obviously didn't want that, so he decided to pin the blame on Athena.

My second, more trivial idea is that it was also just simple revenge - Phantom wanted to get back at the kid who stabbed him and who had seen him at the crime scene all those years ago.

Spoiler:

These sound nice in theory, but then you have to remember that the whole point of Phantom's character is that he has no emotions.

But yeah, I agree. Presenting the lighter was idiotic and OOC for him. He should've just said that they couldn't be identified, or not presented the lighter at all, and let everything end with 5-4.

Maybe I missed something, but why exactly would Phantom!Fulbright implicate Athena with the lighter? He could just not have presented anything and let Starbuck take the fall. It seemed a bit risky - or just pointless - to drag out the investigation after that.

The reason was for the sake of the plot.

Duh.

Quote:

Spoiler:

My thinking is that he was afraid that if he didn't present really conclusive evidence of someone's guilt, suspicion would eventually fall on him. At that point Cosmos' testimony was making it pretty clear that Starbuck wasn't the only possible suspect, and that at the very least further investigation would be required. Phantom obviously didn't want that, so he decided to pin the blame on Athena.

My second, more trivial idea is that it was also just simple revenge - Phantom wanted to get back at the kid who stabbed him and who had seen him at the crime scene all those years ago.

Spoiler:

These sound nice in theory, but then you have to remember that the whole point of Phantom's character is that he has no emotions.

But yeah, I agree. Presenting the lighter was idiotic and OOC for him. He should've just said that they couldn't be identified, or not presented the lighter at all, and let everything end with 5-4.

So I literally just finished the case then and there. Thoughts of the murderer are in the spoilers below

Spoiler:

I actually DID suspect Fulbright. However, I then thought Aura may have been behind it, but I know I was thinking 'I reckon Bobby's behind this.' I didn't like the fact we didn't get to see who he was at the end. I feel like making your villain the 'Big Bad' isn't exactly the best way to go about things. Still, it was interesting to see how they dealt with it.

So I literally just finished the case then and there. Thoughts of the murderer are in the spoilers below

Spoiler:

I actually DID suspect Fulbright. However, I then thought Aura may have been behind it, but I know I was thinking 'I reckon Bobby's behind this.' I didn't like the fact we didn't get to see who he was at the end. I feel like making your villain the 'Big Bad' isn't exactly the best way to go about things. Still, it was interesting to see how they dealt with it.

Spoiler:

I think that's the point. Not knowing who the murderer is does make it a lot darker and more interesting. Revealing someone you don't know is kind of lame if you ask me. (Unless he has an interesting backstory.)

"Oh holy father, holy Brother, holy master... My sacred mission is at last complete. With these two hands, mankind is saved. I am your will made flesh. In your name, I give thanks."

Everyone says that the Phantom's motive to kill Metis Cykes doesn't have any sense, because Metis had already done the research about him. But did Phantom know that? If he didn't know, I would understand why he killed her.

Everyone says that the Phantom's motive to kill Metis Cykes doesn't have any sense, because Metis had already done the research about him. But did Phantom know that? If he didn't know, I would understand why he killed her.

Spoiler:

The Phantom's motive was to retrieve the research that was done on him to keep his identity hidden. However, after reaching the scene he stumbled upon Athena, she grabbed the knife (Or she took the knife from him, I'm not sure.) then she stabbed him. Unfortunately for the phantom, his blood got on the moon rock. He killed Metis after knocking Athena unconscious and left. After that, the blackmailed happened, HAT-1 launch, etc etc.

"Oh holy father, holy Brother, holy master... My sacred mission is at last complete. With these two hands, mankind is saved. I am your will made flesh. In your name, I give thanks."

Everyone says that the Phantom's motive to kill Metis Cykes doesn't have any sense, because Metis had already done the research about him. But did Phantom know that? If he didn't know, I would understand why he killed her.

Spoiler:

The Phantom's motive was to retrieve the research that was done on him to keep his identity hidden. However, after reaching the scene he stumbled upon Athena, she grabbed the knife (Or she took the knife from him, I'm not sure.) then she stabbed him. Unfortunately for the phantom, his blood got on the moon rock. He killed Metis after knocking Athena unconscious and left. After that, the blackmailed happened, HAT-1 launch, etc etc.

I'm 3/4ths of the way through a replay of Case 5, and I can confirm it was this.

I actually complained a fair amount about his motive never being explained. That was a mistake on my part, though, as Blackquill explains it (and the theory I came up earlier with was actually pretty spot on)

Here's the entire motivation behind the Case 5 crime

Spoiler: Case 5 dialogue

Blackquill...but he (The Phantom) was no ordinary spy. We knew naught about him -- his background, appearance...We came to refer to him as "the phantom." At the time, I was working with the police to hunt him down. And then one day, a miracle occurred, and I obtained a lead on him.Judge: Oh, how exciting! What was the lead!Blackquill: A recording of the phantom's voice. But the quality was too poor for proper voice analysis. Yet, I had hope. Aura's co-worker was a scientist who could analyze human emotions...so I asked her to evaluate the recording using analytical psychology.Phoenix: And that scientist was...Dr. Cykes!Blackquill: Yes. A spy's greatest fear is to have his true identity recovered. In addition to HAT-1, Dr. Cykes' results and the recordings were surely among his targets. But his search of the Space Center bore no fruit, so he must have started to panic.Judge: He couldn't find them? But where could they have been?!Blackquill: Hmph. Who is to say? (holds up the psychology profile of the Phantom)Phoenix: (Wow. I bet he's never let that out of his sight all these years)Edgeworth: How in the world did you smuggle them into prison?Blackquill: Oh, I have my ways. What's more, my partner (Taka) is especially talented at that sort of thing. I worked to lure the phantom in by spread rumors through the underworld. I was even granted permission to prosecute cases to attract the phantom's attention. "Just TRY to retrieve your identity, you bloody butcher!" became my taunt.

So yeah. There was one thing that was off base in my theory.

Spoiler: Theory incorrectness

I had originally thought that the Federal government was the one who requested the profile, but that was Blackquill instead. Metis probably gave the profile to Blackquill at some point before she was killed, and Blackquill's trip to the Space Center may very well have been to ask a few questions about the profile.

Also, in regards to part of the dialogue from earlier...

Spoiler:

This dialogue was all before anyone figured out that the motive behind the HAT-1 bombing was the blood on the moon rock. Since the case later reveals that the entire HAT-1 bombing was to destroy the moon rock, we can safely assume that the only real motivation behind Metis' murder was the psych profile...

Idk, with the control over his voice and emotions that he's demonstrated to have, the analysis of the recording just doesn't seem like that compelling of a motive

Spoiler:

On the surface, no. I was more trying to just establish why the Phantom did what he did, since it's been somewhat unclear in this thread (people have suggested everything from wanting to blow up the spaceship to stealing the moon rock as motives)

However...it can be made to be a strong motive pretty easily, so long as we assume that the Phantom didn't know what kind of research was being performed (and there's no reason to think he would have). Like I said before, he probably got tipped off on Blackquill's request for Metis to analyze something. For all the Phantom knew, it could have been something much more dangerous. And for someone as highly trained as him, infiltrating a research center, retrieving a document, and exiting unnoticed would have been a walk in the park.

...only Metis had already shipped it away, and the Phantom didn't count on an eight year old being able to stab him.

Somehow, I can't but feel that committing a murder, getting seen and attacked by a child, and getting recorded on a security camera isn't exactly "exiting unnoticed."

Idk, the possibility of it being something worse just doesn't seem like that compelling of a motive, especially with the hindsight of how minor the record/results actually was. I mean, I guess it works better than I initially thought it did, but it still doesn't seem that compelling.

So far, all I can say is:1. Damn, this case is intense. It might even be in the top 5 best cases.2. Edgeworth and Apollo in the same courtroom! Yes! And doing a combined WHAAAAAT?! YES!3. Apollo's rebellion... love it. Harsh but beautiful. He's always had a healthy amount of suspicion towards people, and he deserves a lot of respect for not going with the usual "But X would never do something like that!". "(Apollo, how can you say such a thing?") Uh, well, because his investigation led him to that conclusion? He wanted to believe in her, but his trust is something you have to earn. And that, my friends, is justice (And you know what they say about justice).

So far, all I can say is:1. Damn, this case is intense. It might even be in the top 5 best cases.2. Edgeworth and Apollo in the same courtroom! Yes! And doing a combined WHAAAAAT?! YES!3. Apollo's rebellion... love it. Harsh but beautiful. He's always had a healthy amount of suspicion towards people, and he deserves a lot of respect for not going with the usual "But X would never do something like that!". "(Apollo, how can you say such a thing?") Uh, well, because his investigation led him to that conclusion? He wanted to believe in her, but his trust is something you have to earn. And that, my friends, is justice (And you know what they say about justice).

Ha ha ha! You know what they say "In justice we trusted!" and "Injustice we trust!"

"Oh holy father, holy Brother, holy master... My sacred mission is at last complete. With these two hands, mankind is saved. I am your will made flesh. In your name, I give thanks."

Just got around to finishing the game! Question, regarding the ending...

Spoiler: Ending!

So, the person impersonating "Bobby Fulbright" wasn't actually the phantom, and he was telling the truth about being a "secret agent" or whatever? Or if he was the phantom all along, what was up with him getting shot by a sniper at the end? Who was the sniper?

And my final thoughts on the game overall, with a few spoilers...

Spoiler: Thoughts!

Overall, very enjoyable. Pretty easy. A few surprising moments, and emotionally-drawing game, especially when Apollo tried to get Athena indicted for murder. I wasn't overly surprised by any of the real murders... even the Bobby Fulbright ordeal. Not that I expecting him from the start, but once the game let you pick who you thought the phantom was from the list of profiles, Fulbright was pretty much the only one that made sense.

So, the person impersonating "Bobby Fulbright" wasn't actually the phantom, and he was telling the truth about being a "secret agent" or whatever? Or if he was the phantom all along, what was up with him getting shot by a sniper at the end? Who was the sniper?

Spoiler:

It was Phantom. He's a secret agent.

As a secret agent, he knew various secrets and stuff that random organizations/governments/whatever didn't want anyone to know, so he was a wanted man. Consequently, as soon as Phoenix proved that he was indeed Phantom, he was shot by a sniper from one of those random organizations/governments/whatever.

So, is Fulbright's death connected on why Gumshoe wasn't in the game? Because people would sue CAPCOM if they found out Gumshoe was the Phantom all along.

Spoiler: big bad

I don't think it was that per se, but rather that the detective was the big bad. There's no reason Gumshoe or Ema couldn't have been a detective for one of the cases (likely 2 or 3), but that would cut down on our time with who would end up being the big bad, which is why I think Gumshoe and Ema didn't make any appearances in the game.

It just says "Athena left the office" but...that wouldn't happen if that bad ending took place.

All Blackquill was on the stand for was the retrial of the UR-1 Incident but after that there was STILL the murder of Clay Terran, the murder which Athena was charged with in the previous case.

So if Blackquill's verdict remains unchanged, then they don't have the opportunity to identify the Phantom (as the possibility of a third party's presence only start to emerge as a result of breaking Blackquill's testimony and then the Thought Route that follows) and thus can't indict him for either murder (since the motive for killing Clay is directly linked to the murder of Metis).

Blackquill would be executed as planned but then Athena would end up being found guilty of murdering Clay, get put in prison, and probably sentenced to death herself. Aura would probably still vanish with the hostages too because, despite Athena being found guilty of murdering Clay, her brother still died so she had no reason to follow through with releasing the hostages.

Am I right on this or did I miss something? Please be nice if I missed a detail.

Yyyep, that's pretty much what happens. I thought that was a given.Maybe it's just me...

Spoiler:

I admit I was more emotionally invested into this ending than the good one. This is what a bad ending in JFA should have been like, but you know... stuff happen.

...I just imagined, what if all the bad endings throughout the games converged to the same picture of Phoenix donning a coat and leaving the office permanently? It'd be the best example of reusability ever, as long as Phoenix doesn't ever change the back of his hair.

It just says "Athena left the office" but...that wouldn't happen if that bad ending took place.

All Blackquill was on the stand for was the retrial of the UR-1 Incident but after that there was STILL the murder of Clay Terran, the murder which Athena was charged with in the previous case.

So if Blackquill's verdict remains unchanged, then they don't have the opportunity to identify the Phantom (as the possibility of a third party's presence only start to emerge as a result of breaking Blackquill's testimony and then the Thought Route that follows) and thus can't indict him for either murder (since the motive for killing Clay is directly linked to the murder of Metis).

Blackquill would be executed as planned but then Athena would end up being found guilty of murdering Clay, get put in prison, and probably sentenced to death herself. Aura would probably still vanish with the hostages too because, despite Athena being found guilty of murdering Clay, her brother still died so she had no reason to follow through with releasing the hostages.

Am I right on this or did I miss something? Please be nice if I missed a detail.

It just says "Athena left the office" but...that wouldn't happen if that bad ending took place.

All Blackquill was on the stand for was the retrial of the UR-1 Incident but after that there was STILL the murder of Clay Terran, the murder which Athena was charged with in the previous case.

So if Blackquill's verdict remains unchanged, then they don't have the opportunity to identify the Phantom (as the possibility of a third party's presence only start to emerge as a result of breaking Blackquill's testimony and then the Thought Route that follows) and thus can't indict him for either murder (since the motive for killing Clay is directly linked to the murder of Metis).

Blackquill would be executed as planned but then Athena would end up being found guilty of murdering Clay, get put in prison, and probably sentenced to death herself. Aura would probably still vanish with the hostages too because, despite Athena being found guilty of murdering Clay, her brother still died so she had no reason to follow through with releasing the hostages.

Am I right on this or did I miss something? Please be nice if I missed a detail.

It was a good case! Quite intense, although I thought the whole "holding Trucy hostage"-thingie was unnecessary. We already had the kidnapping-aspect before, and things were already suspenseful - having to prove Athena not guilty, breaking her psyche-locks (ouch) as well as Simon's upcoming execution.It was wonderful to see Miles and Phoenix in the same courtoom again! I really missed the guy. Also: Nngoooh!

I really took a liking to Aura. She did really bad things, obviously, but I pitied her (even though her ends didn't really justify the means, but things turned out well after all, and she'll get her legal punishment) and she was a good character. I also liked that she seemed to have been in love with Metis, I liked it very much. The game needs more queer characters in my opinion (even though it wasn't explicitly stated - and she was not an annoying "comic relief"-character like Armstrong, who's apparent queerness and stereotypical behaviour is just for poking fun at him).

Apollo's "rebellion" as someone called it. Yes. One of my favourite aspects. I loved how he wanted to trust Athena but couldn't really do it, not until proven wrong. What I didn't like, though, was Phoenix's reaction to it (BUT SHE'D NEEEVER DO SUCH A THING, APOOOLLOOO, HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT - I understand, but Phoenix, please, the "evidence" that Apollo collected pointed to her, and it's good and healthy not to trust everyone completely all the damn time. It's impressive that Phoenix does it, but he can be a tad bit naïve to say the least) and how quickly Apollo "Apollogized" and how ashamed he was, oh, Athena, can you ever forgive me, etc. She ought to understand why he suspected her, that he had all reason to do so, despite them being coworkers and friends.

The Phantom was very interesting and it was amusing when he tried to prove that he was capable of having emotions as well. The lecture about feelings and identity, followed by his breakdown, though... That was just... really obnoxious. "AAA WHO AM I WHO AM I WÖWÖWÖWÖWÖ". Then: BANG. Ugh. I really liked when he wore the Phoenix-mask, though, how his facial expressions differed from the ones of Phoenix himself. And his pocerface, still wearing the Fulbright-mask, was amusing, especially when he picked up that spy-gadget and was about to hoist himself up in the air. Hehe.

I hope we get some closure regarding Phantom and the sniper in the next title.

Gimme a "P"! Gimme an "I"! Give me a "P" and an "E"! What's that spell?! Pipe!

I think it would've been better if during the Courtroom Lobby scene near the end (the one where Simon is freed of his shackles and before the Phantom is confronted) if Phoenix gave the case to Apollo. Out of the defense trio, it was the least personal for Phoenix to take down the Phantom. The only reason it was him was because it was his destiny along with Blackquill to end the Dark Age of the Law (their dual destinies. *gasp*)

I liked Kristoph more than the Phantom, but Kristoph was less formidable in the end. Apollo confronting the Phantom and getting vengeance for Clay's murderer would've worked nicer

Of course, the Phantom could still appear in the next title, but if he does, I'm betting that he'll be a sniveling wreck

Spoiler:

I mentioned before how the game basically fed you the answer on who the final boss is, but I did like the villain. When it was revealed, I actually got shivers. It was late at night so I turned off the game and wanted to play it fresh in the morning to take the fucker down

But imagine how great it would've been if the game didn't feed you the answer on who the Phantom was? The only hint they gave you was, "The Phantom had to know the emergency ladder would be in use. Who could it be?"

I would've been like:"Okay. Of course it has to be Yuri Cosmos. Wait? That's wrong? Oh! Aura! She's the one who lowered it! No? Clay? No?" *flip through to Fulbright profile* "No...it can't..." *select the profile and get dialogue that's different from the failure dialogue* "Damn..."

I initially also labeled Apollo "Not Phoenix" which he honestly is despite the difference in characterization. but over several playthroughs of AJAA I grew very fond of his sarcastic and snarky attitude and I also thought of all the Takumi-written characters the new guy handled Apollo the best in DD over Phoenix and the other returning fellas, like Trucy, Pearl etc. ...heck even Maya's letter made me go "naaaaahh... I dunno if that's my Maya there" and Phoenix was way too slap-stick-y in DD compared to how his gags usually were.

Overall I was pretty darn dissapointed with this and case 4 (which are the same), mostly just because it had robots (I know it's 2027... but please, keep that futuristic BS out of AA plz) and the whole concept of the final villain was just... kinda disjointed and I didn't really get if there was any actual message to it. seemed like good ol 2deep4u to me.

But even so, the moment when Apollo slams

Spoiler:

the witness table and shouts "clear this doubt within me!"

still makes my heart skip a beat. I just thought there was something really unique about it, even though I didn't really care for Athena's back-plot and the fact that Apollo's development kinda didn't go where I had hoped. It's still a memorable moment IMO. Of all the things I don't like about AA5 so much, I'll still remember it as the game that made me think Apollo was cool.

I think what made that moment so cool was the way Apollo's theme jumped in right as he slammed the desk. I wasn't fond of it before, but "I'm Fine!" is one of my favorite themes in all of AA now

I do really like this case and I thought they did some clever stuff with it. The final villain confrontation was weak but I chalked that up to the game being really easy. I did like the villain but I thought the twists like how the moon rock disappeared and how the killer escaped launch pad 1 were very well done

I know people are upset that Athena stole the show and I do wish she was in the game less, but at least they gave her a backstory in her intro. Yeah, we've seen it before, but every assistant in AA has a tragic past. It's just become the norm (is it bad that I felt more sorry for Rhoda and her suitcases that wouldn't sell than Athena?)

Pearl was fine to me. I wish she had a bigger role but at least we got to see her older, I guess. Trucy was useless which was very disappointing. I wish I could give credit to the poster but they basically said, "Present everything to Trucy at every opportunity and talk to her about everything. All she talks about are panties. It's the only character trait they bothered to leave with her." Edgeworth was cool. I heard at one point he'd be in the game but then I kinda forgot so his reappearance was pretty awesome. There was nothing that contradicted what we know about him before and it's cool to see him as a Chief Prosecutor

I don't really get the complaints about Phoenix. I felt like a legendary attorney while playing as him but people were complaining that he felt the same as in Case 5 of T&T and his personality was different from his Hobo self. I thought he was handled fine. The only thing I didn't like was the fact that the reason he, "came back" was to take down the Phantom. I miss when Phoenix would just stick up for those who didn't have anybody else to help them

I've said before that I don't like Maya that much, but that's not the reason I don't like her that much. I think the new team is better with making new characters than recycling old ones. I DON'T want to see Maggey ever again. In AAI-1, there was ONE new character and he was the villain -__- But, in general, I do think the new team does a good job at making memorable characters. In that AA Character Sorter Thread, a lot of my favorites were from the new games: Kay Faraday, Yumihiko Ichiyanagi, Shi-Long Lang, Simon Blackquill, Tyrell Badd, Calisto Yew, Manosuke Naitou, Yuri Cosmos, Yutaka Kazami, Bobby Fulbright, Shimon Aizawa, and Bansai Ichiyangi (the list isn't 100% accurate, though)

The game that has the worst characters is Apollo Justice. Apollo, Trucy, Valant, and Kristoph were the only good new characters in that one

I think what made the final encounter weak though, was that - in a sense - it was yet another hamfisted villain we hadn't really encountered before that they decided to shove in at the last part of the case.It takesaway a lot of the initial impact you feel when you think you've found out who he is.

Really don't like his theme either. I thought it was enervating.

But the worst part though is that the motive can be boiled down to "I wanted to do my job. - No personal feelings attached". In general thebig negative I took away upon beating Dual Destinies was that none of the motives really did it for me. They all seemed like afterthoughts, when in all of my favorite cases of the series, the motives were maybe 40% of the reason I ended up liking those cases.

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