First I'd like to thank everyone contributing to this topic (Voltronic 5kW/48V inverters), I've learned so much here!

I've been running one for 2 years now (12kWh batt, 3kWp monocrystalline panels mounted at 70° for optimal winter performance) at my stable which is 300m out of town and has no power, and my main problem is the fact that charging from generator is a big hassle. I have 2 gensets, one 6KVA diesel (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... L1500_.jpg) with ATS, meaning it can start and stop automatically when line powercomes and goes, I don't use that feature but it comes with a simple switch "on or off" that any girl can operate, and I've wired that switch to the relay output of the inverter. Result is almost perfect operation, just need to keep the tank full and I always have power, the generator runs a couple hours every 2 days if it's constantly very cloudy. And as backup I have a cheap 2kVA gasoline generator with manual start.

Now when I first set things up, the inverter would not charge from either generator. I concentrate here only on the big one since thats the one I want to use. The inverter saw the AC input fine and activated the bypass, but as soon as it wanted to start charging, it would click-click and lose the bypass, after about 5sec go back to bypass, after another 5sec try charging again with the same result. Measuriung the voltage I saw that when the charger starts it would spike from 240v to 280v or so, apparently causing the inverter to drop off. After some calls with the generator supplier and the inverter supplier (I bought the inverter for 1100€ from a German electrician instead of 600€ on Aliexpress because I wanted full 2y warranty and support), where each put the blame on the other, I tweaked the rpm regulation from 52 Hz (no-load) down to 49 Hz and then it started to work. But I could only use 20A charging current, as soon as it reached about 25A the generator would drop below 48Hz and again the charger would drop off, and the whole cycle would restart. I understand that because the generator was really turned down too far and the motor was running too slowly for good operation. Another solution (which since the big one is broken and I have to use the small one, I'm using every week now) is to start the generator and run an AC motor off it, I tried 3 different ones (air compressor, deepwell pump, suction pump, all between 400-800W and any one works), while the motor runs it seems to smooth the waveform (havent compared with oscilloscope yet) and the inverterstarts to charge just fine. After about a minute I turn the motor off and it keeps charging for hours. I tried adding a "line filter" (like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 080%29.jpg) but it didnt help. I might add that there is 50m of 2.5mm2 cable between the genset and the inverter, I dont susprect thats a problem though.
Anyway I ran that setup with the slowed-down generator and only charging at 20A (1kW) for about 1.5 years until the generator broke (open circuit in the alternator), possibly due to overloading by the slow speed. Now I'll have to send it in to be fixed, but in that course I'd really like to fix the charging problem, here I have a 5kW generator chugging away diesel and only using 20% of its capacity.

I got all excited yesterday reading that there were new firmware updates improving the generator charge behaviour, but after checking I see I already have version 72.60 (for some reason I only have a U1 version display, no U2 version display). Will an upgrade to a newer version help, what do you think? Parameter 3 is already set to Appliance.

Another question: Why are you guys using LiFePO4 instead of AGM? Seems to me they cost 3 times as much per kWh and the only real advantage is size & weight, which of course is important in vehicles, but not stationary?

regards,
Ethan

P.S. I'm also working on an ESP8266 solution to query the QPIGS data periodically (down to 1 Hz possible) over the serial interface, and upload the data in realtime to a cloud server (i.e. thingspeak.com or basically any other solution possible) which can then in turn be queried by any device (smartphone, pc, etc.) to see stats and current status. The ESP8266 costs only 3€ and basically connects directly to the PCB connector on the serial comm board in the inverter, hardly any other parts are needed. It would also be possible without too much effort to add a 100A current sensor like the ACS773 (about 5€) to measure battery current more precisely. One of the advantages I'm hoping to achieve would be a summarizing SOC calculation, since the stock SOC estimation is pretty useless. Somehow I have the feeling my batteries are not charging/discharging as much as they should be, of the exprected 10kWh I feel like I'm only getting 2-3 kWh and I hope to gain a better insight that way. Finally it could send messages i.e. via Telegram to smartphones for alerting to interesting comditions, or simply daily status report.

Measuring the voltage I saw that when the charger starts it would spike from 240v to 280v or so, apparently causing the inverter to drop off.

Yikes. 280 V will definitely drop off the inverter.

... where each put the blame on the other,

I don't believe it! Oh wait, the other thing

I tweaked the rpm regulation from 52 Hz (no-load) down to 49 Hz and then it started to work. But I could only use 20A charging current, as soon as it reached about 25A the generator would drop below 48Hz and again the charger would drop off, and the whole cycle would restart.

I think you really need a generator with a good electronic regulator. I thought that the larger diesel generators would have this, but spiking to 280 V suggests otherwise.

I tried 3 different ones (air compressor, deepwell pump, suction pump, all between 400-800W and any one works), while the motor runs it seems to smooth the waveform (havent compared with oscilloscope yet) and the inverterstarts to charge just fine.

Interesting. I think others have reported this as well.

I might add that there is 50m of 2.5mm2 cable between the genset and the inverter, I dont susprect thats a problem though.

50 metres? I think that could be a large part of your problem. I'd go for at least 4 mm²; 2.5 mm² is too small for 5 kVA (even though the PIP can't use all of it, charging plus loads conceivably might). Perhaps if you could adjust the generator output to 230 V (without reducing the frequency) it might help also.

Will an upgrade to a newer version help, what do you think? Parameter 3 is already set to Appliance.

I haven't been following the generator saga, but my impression is that no, a firmware update is unlikely to fix the generator issue. However, it's a pretty easy thing to try.

Another question: Why are you guys using LiFePO4 instead of AGM?

Basically because they last a lot longer, and can safely be discharged 4-5x deeper and end up being cheaper in the long term. They usually also have less voltage sag under load, unless you have amazing and expensive lead acid.

Somehow I have the feeling my batteries are not charging/discharging as much as they should be, of the expected 10kWh I feel like I'm only getting 2-3 kWh ...

Well, you can't get nominal capacity from your AGMs, if you want to get any sort of decent life from them. But even if you have 50 kWh (1000 Ah) of nominal capacity, from which you can expect to use 10 kWh routinely, you might be running into one of the factory firmware charge bugs. The charge bug (there are two, but you only experience one depending on a setting) will chronically undercharge your battery, which won't do it any favours. It could be causing your AGMs to have low capacity. Or of course, they might be ready for replacement; two years is about all you can expect from AGM, depending on many factors.

I think you really need a generator with a good electronic regulator. I thought that the larger diesel generators would have this, but spiking to 280 V suggests otherwise.

Yes, maybe I should try a different one... This is the one thats built in:

50 metres? I think that could be a large part of your problem. I'd go for at least 4 mm²; 2.5 mm² is too small for 5 kVA

I'm not really worried about voltage sag and the most I'd ever use would be about 3kW. Might the long cable increase harmonics or other irregularities? I could try a shorter one (10m) when the big genset is back from repair...

Basically because they last a lot longer, and can safely be discharged 4-5x deeper and end up being cheaper in the long term. They usually also have less voltage sag under load, unless you have amazing and expensive lead acid.

And whats wrong with voltage sag? I dont really mind my AGMs moving between 44 and 55v... My usage averages 100-200W 99% of the time (lights, heating, Wifi and cameras), about 10 times a day a 600W pump runs for a few minutes, 2-3 times a day a 1800W water heater, and every few weeks I use power tools (upto 2500W) for an hour or so. According to the battery lifetime diagram I would expect 700-800 cycles at 50% DOD and 1300-1400 cycles at 30% DOD, I try my best to stay above 50% DOD most of the time. So I would expect at least 3-4 years lifetime.

you might be running into one of the factory firmware charge bugs. The charge bug (there are two, but you only experience one depending on a setting) will chronically undercharge your battery, which won't do it any favours.

Would your patched firmware 73.00d fix that problem? Then I would try it.

Another reason I'd like some long term monitoring without a PC running 24/7 is to have a protocol to enforce warranty claims if the battery ages permaturely...

I was thinking something much bigger than that. I'm thinking of a 300 x 400 mm PCB and a throttle actuator you'd never win an arm wrestle with. Granted, that was an 18 kW model.

Coulomb wrote:50 metres? I think that could be a large part of your problem. I'd go for at least 4 mm²; 2.5 mm² is too small for 5 kVA

Oh. I was thinking fixed wiring; I don't think you can get thicker than 2.5 mm² in an extension cord.

I'm not really worried about voltage sag and the most I'd ever use would be about 3kW. Might the long cable increase harmonics or other irregularities?

I think it could affect the stability of the combined system. The generator is attempting to regulate the output voltage, and the inverter is attempting to regulate the battery charge current, and they can interact in strange ways.

I could try a shorter one (10m) when the big genset is back from repair...

I think that would be an excellent thing to try, if it's convenient.

According to the battery lifetime diagram I would expect 700-800 cycles at 50% DOD and 1300-1400 cycles at 30% DOD, I try my best to stay above 50% DOD most of the time. So I would expect at least 3-4 years lifetime.

I think that's somewhat optimistic. You could expect 8-10 years (with reduced capacity at the end) from a lithium battery.

I was thinking something much bigger than that. I'm thinking of a 300 x 400 mm PCB and a throttle actuator you'd never win an arm wrestle with. Granted, that was an 18 kW model.

Well, thats whats included in 6KVA china consumer generators... I guess as long as it suits 90% of people, it's good enough for the vendors.

Coulomb wrote:I don't think you can get thicker than 2.5 mm² in an extension cord.

Think again Here is 400V/64A/5x10mm2 - usually only seen at construction sites and events.
But for testing I'd probably use fixed wiring first.

Coulomb wrote:I think that's somewhat optimistic. You could expect 8-10 years (with reduced capacity at the end) from a lithium battery.

Mmmh... that sure would explain things... I'll have to run a decent capacity test these days, I'd really be disappointed if my 2000€ batteries were shot already... then I'll treally kick my ass for not having upgraded the PV a lot earlier (I only just upgraded from 1.5kWp to 3kWp)

I might add that for the first 1.5 years I had the float and bulk charge voltages both set to 58.4v (the maximum)... I wonder how much damage that did... about 2 months ago I then changed the lower one to 55.2v or something like that.

[Moderator note: The part of this discussion that relates to AGM batteries is continued here. -- Weber]

I just tried flashing the upgrade (dsp_BC1_73.00d), followed the instructions here in this thread exactly, used a Win7 PC with a PL2303 USB-to-Serial adapter, tested it beforehand with Watchpower and it worked, exited watchpower completely (in taskbar), started the upgrade program, and it found the COM port (5), I clicked on update now, it asked "this will update, are you sure?" and I confirmed, then the process went to "not responding", after about 5 seconds the inverter clicked once, output seems to go off although it still displays 230V output, and stopped blinking green (I had also disconnected solar and removed the output load, but left the inverter power switch on), then after another 20 seconds or so the updater says "cannot connect to COM port!", and the inverter is stuck then and will not react to powering off, I had to disconnect the battery to get it back to running. Thank god it started up again normally. I tried the whole procedure twice.

After the first time I hadnt realized the inverter was frozen and I hooked up a terminal to the serial port and started receiving a crazy character (looks like a cursor-sized checkerboard pattern) about every second (possibly wrong baudrate, although terminal was set to 2400). No reaction to any keyboard input.

Any ideas? My current firmware U1 is 72.60 and interestingly now I also get a U2=04.10 (didnt get that when I tried last week).
My label says Effekta, AX-M 5000-48
Solar Charge 80A, Max open circuit 145V

I just tried flashing the upgrade (dsp_BC1_73.00d) ... used a Win7 PC with a PL2303 USB-to-Serial adapter

That could be the problem. Perhaps try another; the one from Jaycar (Australia and New Zealand) is known to work. [ Edit: It's since been established that the known-good Jaycar adapter also uses a PL2303 chip, so it's likely NOT to be the problem. ]

after about 5 seconds the inverter clicked once, output seems to go off although it still displays 230V output, and stopped blinking green (I had also disconnected solar and removed the output load, but left the inverter power switch on),

So far everything is perfectly normal. After that click, the normal software isn't running, so the LCD doesn't update at all. It will just freeze with whatever it was displaying before. The bootstrap loader has taken control.

then after another 20 seconds or so the updater says "cannot connect to COM port!", and the inverter is stuck then and will not react to powering off, I had to disconnect the battery to get it back to running.

So something seems to be going wrong after the initial handshake.

After the first time I hadnt realized the inverter was frozen and I hooked up a terminal to the serial port and started receiving a crazy character (looks like a cursor-sized checkerboard pattern) about every second (possibly wrong baudrate, although terminal was set to 2400). No reaction to any keyboard input.

The command to initiate firmware updating is at 2400 bps, as are all commands and responses. However, the flash updating takes place at 9600 bps. It looks like your communications is marginal somehow, and fails at 9600 bps when it works fine at 2400 bps. After the PC program aborted the firmware update, the inverter must have been still attempting to communicate at 9600 bps. Hence the checkerboard pattern and lack of response. I think it would revert to normal operation, perhaps after a long timeout, but I'm not sure about this.

Any ideas? My current firmware U1 is 72.60 and interestingly now I also get a U2=04.10 (didnt get that when I tried last week).

You will only get a U2 (SCC firmware version number) display if PV is connected and panels are producing power. So perhaps last week was at night, or the solar panels were isolated.

My first suggestion is trying another USB to serial adapter. Id' say there is a 90% certainty that this will be the problem.

If that doesn't work, there is a chance that your communications board performing well enough for firmware updating. Some boards do seem to be better than others at 9600 bps, taking longer to complete firmware updates due to resending of bad packets. Assuming you don't have another machine to swap communications boards with, you'd have to order one from your supplier. If you're keen, you could attempt to replace the opto isolators on the communications board, though there is no guarantee that this would fix the problem.

Thank you so much! It sure sounds plausible that the speed change is causing an interruption.

My USB adapter is one of the better ones known to work with Linux (even Android OTG which is why I got it in the frist place, meaning to write an Android app to constantly display COMPLETE status of the inverter, mounted on the wall). Unfortunately the Jaycar site doesnt tell which chip it uses (there are a few very common ones like PL2102 or CH340, and a few ones with less support) and I'd like to avoid ordering one from Australia to Europe just on a hunch, do you happen to know which chip it uses so I can look for a European supplier?

I have this PIP2424MXSE, it was working good the last year, and then a strike blow it up.
First I got the 09 code fault, "Bus soft start failed". After open the case I found four X2 capacitors, one MOV, and three transistors GW45HF60WDA blowed up.

I have changed this components, there are five GW45HF60WDA, and only three of them blowed, but I changed them all.
Afer this, I don't have anymore the 09 fault code, now I have a 07 "overload time out" error when I turn on the switch of the MPP and disconnect it from the grid. In adittion, without anything connected to the output, I read always around 350-500 VA, only reactive power, 0 W active power.
With the switched turned off, the inverter charges the batteries just as normal. When turn it on, it shows a 11-13% load (with no load connected) and no errors. If I connect something, like a 42W iron in the output, it measures more than 3KVA and 07 fault code again.

I didn't use the service manual because I didn't know about it at that time. Sorry for my poor english.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.

But it seems more likely to me, realising that the same chip is involved, that your RS232 to serial adapter is not the problem. Unless it is a fake one, and you're using a special driver; see my discussion about this.

Edit: for completeness, I fired up my old XP machine and did the same test with the older prolific unit, which looks identical from the outside. It said "No PL2303 chip".[ Edit: "PL2302 as well" -> "PL2303 as well" ]

I have this PIP2424MXSE, it was working good the last year, and then a strike blow it up.
First I got the 09 code fault, "Bus soft start failed".

That's usually a tough one to recover from.

After open the case I found four X2 capacitors, one MOV, and three transistors GW45HF60WDA blowed up.

It's not clear whether you replaced all the MOVs. It would seem a good idea to replace all MOVs after a lightning event.

Afer this, I don't have anymore the 09 fault code, now I have a 07 "overload time out" error ... If I connect something, like a 42W iron in the output, it measures more than 3KVA and 07 fault code again.

I don't know your firmware at all, but it seems that the error (fault) codes are consistent across the 1-5 kVA off-grid models. So this is referring to load power, presumably measured via the current transformer on the AC output. I'm not sure, but I think it's this one from your photo (outlined in red):

PIP-2424MSXE probable CT location.jpg (93.29 KiB) Viewed 2992 times

If the current transformer is blown, then I don't see how you could obtain a replacement. But it may be the burden resistor (a low valued resistor on the output of the current transformer), or the op-amp that it connects to, or associated parts. That op-amp may be on the control board (the daughter board with the processor on it), at the bottom of the photo). I'm not ware of any schematics or even partial schematic traces for that part of the circuit. The op-amps seem to be 8-pin or 14-pin SOIC types.

Thank you, I just tested with that program and it reports the exact same thing as your screenshot.

Before I modify the comm board or order another one (which might not work either), do you think it would be worth a try connecting the TTL side of the USB adapter (after checking that it's 5V and not 3.3V) directly to the TTL serial lines on the inverter (6-pin connector on the left edge of the comms board)?

I just tested with that program and it reports the exact same thing as your screenshot.

Ok, so that pretty much rules out the USB to serial interface as being the problem, unless there are some peripheral parts not up to standard, and that seems unlikely.

Before I modify the comm board or order another one (which might not work either), do you think it would be worth a try connecting the TTL side of the USB adapter (after checking that it's 5V and not 3.3V) directly to the TTL serial lines on the inverter (6-pin connector on the left edge of the comms board)?

Perhaps, if you have access to the TTL side of the USB adapter. It looks like the inverter connections would be 5 V TTL high=idle, see the partial schematic trace of the communications board. Be very careful with isolation, as you are bypassing the isolation of the opto-couplers. A laptop not plugged in for charging should be OK.

The other thing would be to vary the resistances associated with the RC networks on the communications board: R15 for the RS232 to inverter direction, and I don't see one for the other direction (more tracing may be required).

It's not clear whether you replaced all the MOVs. It would seem a good idea to replace all MOVs after a lightning event.

I didn't , I just replace the blowed one, because I couldn't find a good MOV like the original here in Argentina neither in Brasil, so I replace it with a cheaper one. I have readed your post about what happen with MOVs after lightning events, so in the first place I though that some of the output MOVs were damaged and acting as a load when more than 220V is apllied on them. To disregard, I cut all the MOVs out of the board
Nothing changes, the display shows the same gost load (~400 VA pure reactive). I put them in again.

If the current transformer is blown, then I don't see how you could obtain a replacement. But it may be the burden resistor (a low valued resistor on the output of the current transformer), or the op-amp that it connects to, or associated parts. That op-amp may be on the control board (the daughter board with the processor on it), at the bottom of the photo). I'm not ware of any schematics or even partial schematic traces for that part of the circuit. The op-amps seem to be 8-pin SOIC types.

You were completely right . That transformer is labeled "CT1", I didn't know about it.
Found that burden resistor on the output of the current transformer.
The resistor was completely open. After replaced it with a new one, the inverter is working without errors. Now I just need to connect it to the solar panels to be sure it will work with them.

There are those op-amps you mentioned. Connected to the pin 4 of the control board, there is a TL074I associated to the current transformer.

So far, I'm very grateful for your help, thank you very much!

Last edited by weber on Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 07:25, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Reduced page area occupied by broken image links

Release Version of Patched Firmware 73.00e for some PF0.8 models (introducing KettleKomp™)

[Edit: On 4-Jan-2019 we replaced beta 73.00e here, with release 73.00e. The only change was the first letter of the version number (from B to L). This was after 1 month and 26 downloads of the LFP version and 30 downloads of the Lead aCid/Lithium Cobalt version, with zero bug reports.]

This is the fifth version of our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 73.00 for the PIP-4048MS and equivalents. This patched firmware has all the same patches as 73.00d and earlier patched firmwares, including Dynamic Charge and Load Control and AussieView™. This includes fixing the infamous premature float bugs.

In addition, 73.00e adds kettle compensation, or KettleKomp™ for short. This prevents a heavy load like a kettle from causing the inverter to cut off, or switch back to the grid prematurely, due to momentary low battery voltage, when the battery state of charge is not low. It also improves the crude state-of-charge reading provided by the inverter. The following photos will make more sense after you read the Kettle Compensation section of the AussieView and KettleKomp manual.

The following image shows both true and compensated battery voltage (with the flashing "k"), while boiling the kettle.

The following image shows how we﻿ piggy-backed the setting of compensation st﻿rength on the cut-off volta﻿ge setting﻿.

Note: This firmware is only compatible with the 48 V models that have a single low-voltage MPPT and a power factor of 0.8 (4 kW / 5 kVA). i.e. the older PIP-4048MS or Axpert MKS 5K-48 that is no longer manufactured, or their equivalent. It is not compatible with those having dual or triple MPPTs or a power factor of 1.0 (5 kW / 5 kVA), or a maximum PV array open circuit voltage greater than 145 V DC. It is not compatible with those having a 64 V maximum charge voltage option. It is not compatible with grid-feed or hybrid models such as EnerSolar or InfiniSolar. Parallel or phased machines must all run the same patched firmware version.

WARNING!!

Flashing this firmware to an incompatible machine (especially one that comes with main firmware version 71.XX) will likely brick the inverter!

For some combinations of firmware, the reflash tool will not prevent this.

Hi mates . My first post here, but long time reader. I must thank the topic participants for the excellent info found on it!

I to have a PIP-5048MSP for about 4.5 years. All been working fine, except 3 fan faults. Today a new problem arouse. It started to trip the mains differential when the inverter switches to Line bypass. Sometimes it holds, but i get tension on the earth lead. I'm thinking there must be some short on the line to battery switch (relays with contacts glued maybe). On battery, no problem. Only on line bypass.

What do you think? Is there any schematic of this part of the circuit? I searched but couldn't find anything.

Hi mates . My first post here, but long time reader. I must thank the topic participants for the excellent info found on it!

I to have a PIP-5048MSP for about 4.5 years. All been working fine, except 3 fan faults. Today a new problem arouse. It started to trip the mains differential when the inverter switches to Line bypass. Sometimes it holds, but i get tension on the earth lead. I'm thinking there must be some short on the line to battery switch (relays with contacts glued maybe). On battery, no problem. Only on line bypass.

What do you think? Is there any schematic of this part of the circuit? I searched but couldn't find anything.

Welcome @CrOhN, and thanks for the kind words.

I have never heard of a PIP-5048MSP, and I don't think any kind of 5048 existed 4.5 years ago. Decoding that part number in the manner I describe here, would give it continuous output power of 5000 W / 6250 VA. What are the continuous W and VA specs in its manual? I'm guessing they will be 4000 W / 5000 VA which would make it a PIP-4048MS (assuming its SCC is an MPPT type with a max open circuit voltage of 145 V). Can you tell us what main (U1) firmware version it came with?

In the PIP-4048MS, we think the arrangement of those relays has changed twice since they were first sold. We have a manufacturer's schematic for what we think is the first configuration, which is most likely what you have, and we have a guess at the third configuration. [@coulomb perhaps update the index page to make these findable with the word "relay".]

It's a long-shot, but I note that there is a small circuit board raised on standoffs that parallels some of these relays with triacs. We think this is for fast changeover, although it may also reduce arcing of the relay contacts. Maybe something on this triac board has gone leaky. So, if replacing relays doesn't fix it, you might try removing this board temporarily to see if the fault goes away, but don't run any inductive loads during the test, just in case. We have not tried operating without this board, so this would be at your own risk.

[Edit: It might instead be a leaky MOV or capacitor.]

One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

Hello CrOhN
Is there an earth on the neutral at the output of the inverter if not it will go to about 90 volts and can case
it to trip the mains differential.
There needs to be a mains differential safety relay on the output of the inverter
There needs to be a relay that puts an earth on the neutral when the inverter is running
but removes it when connected to the mains as this should then be replaced by the MEN link
this also means it may not be possible to have one on the input of the inverter
due to leakage from slow relay not removing the earth fast enough.
So measure neutral to ground when the inverter is on.

There needs to be a mains differential safety relay on the output of the inverter
There needs to be a relay that puts an earth on the neutral when the inverter is running
but removes it when connected to the mains as this should then be replaced by the MEN link
this also means it may not be possible to have one on the input of the inverter
due to leakage from slow relay not removing the earth fast enough.

I haven't fitted any diferential on the output, as i haven't shunt the earth and neutral on the output. As i said, almost 5 years like this, with no problem.

It is around 120V. The problem doesn't happen when on batteries. Only when inverter switches to line bypass. What puzzles me is that i get voltage across earth lead and the earth itself (~120V). But no voltage when i bypass the inverter with the external bypass switch. All earths are common.