I'm not sure the country is going over the cliff, but DU sure as hell has.

This place has gone crazy.

The Senate deal has tax hikes wrested free from spending cuts and people here still find something to complain about.

"B-b-b-but he said $250,000!"

First of all, it's called negotiation. What DU considers a cave, most Americans see as true compromise and sacrifice. The political fallout from the cliff now falls squarely on House Republicans. This weakens the entire party.

Secondly, the $400,000 cap is not the end of the world. Yes, it's going to reduce some revenue. But this is not the Swiss bank account class. When these people have extra money, they tend to spend it. Thus much of the revenue will come back.

It's strange that, for the amount of interest in politics on this board, how many don't seem to understand how they work. At least not in a realistic sense.

136. Oh, and to DUers who don't know what victory looks like...

"Under the agreement, tax rates would jump to 39.6 percent from 35 percent for individual incomes over $400,000 and couples over $450,000, while tax deductions and credits would start phasing out on incomes as low as $250,000, a clear victory for President Obama, who ran for re-election vowing to impose taxes on the wealthy."

139. Yes ...

I do characterize those claiming to give a damn about the "safety net", but only the SS part of it that they will receive, while ignoring the millions that would/will be affected, today, by us not reaching a deal, as it may as imperfect as it may be ... Yes,I characterize each and every one of you as self-serving.

133. No one has to apologize to you for more than hand to mouth thinking.

I've been homeless. I've been an unemployment check from homeless and hungry.

Keep the guilt trips for someone who gives a fuck. The can gets ever bigger as it is kicked down the road so let's not feign too much nobility for engaging in punting the downside down the road so you don't have to deal with it.

42. You beat me to that

76. So you consider FDR an extremist? How do you feel

about Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter? I think DU would like to know.

Is it just old people you don't support, or do you want to throw disabled and minorities under the bus too? After you get rid of Social Security you can start working on the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Civil rights legislation. And if you didn't know that is your agenda, you better get up to speed.

97. Actually anything anyone does.

100. And just voted him back into office!

Just tell me we wouldn't be saying "President-elect Romney" now if it weren't for the "extremists." No matter what our size is, we have a right to get pissed off when too much is offered for too little. Especially when the Republicans were clearly beaten in the last election, yet they get to act like they're in the majority.

Personally, I think President Obama could have gotten a better deal if he had walked and let the Repubs drive over the cliff. The Repubs were certainly going to get the blame for it, and the consequences of this cliff would be easily reversible.

No matter what you say, is that a bad POV? It looks like it's going to happen anyway, now, no fault of President Obama's. If the House kills this, and I think it will, President Obama is cleared of it.

278. That's the role of those outside the center.

Resign yourself to the fact that you will never get 100% of what you want. What you can do, however, is try to pull the center in your direction at election time. That's the fringe's time to shine. Outside of that though... yes, your analysis is correct. But if you want to encourage the rise of Tea Party 2: Electric Boogaloo in order to soothe your battered ego, that's your business.

229. Hmm

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: DINO is a political not personal attack.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Juvenile spat. Meh.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

273. it is a very, very small group here....

...that opposes EVERYTHING obama does. and you and your ilk are purposely exaggerating that number to make anyone with principled to ANY obama policy seem like an "extreme far leftist." trust me, you haven't seen extreme far leftism here, but your attitude is mccarthy-esque.

327. Really????

You know - one could REALLY help all of us ignorant types if they'd compile a book of definitions for us to refer to. Seriously - WHEN is a proclamation or a promise just a phony (and forgiveable) enticement???
Make's me think of angler fish and the little deceptive lures they flaunt to attract prey close enough so's they can fleece them for campaign money.... oops, I got two types of predators confused there. See - THAT'S why us lesser sorts need a "playbook" to understand all this complicated lie..... er, persuasion tactics.

BTW, one example on the horizon is the secretive TPP trade agreement that's being hammered out. An agreement that looks like it might shake the very foundations of American ideals in the interests of serving the super-wealthy (yes, yet another instant replay). I'll be anxious to see how RIGHTCENTER UNDERGROUND crows about the outcome of that when it emerges from its cocoon.

56. He's not bashing the majority because most of us are in agreement with him

DUers who fucking scream about how Obama caves when he's actually negotiating and getting the foot in the door are no different that the teabaggers who want to destroy the government. If you don't give a little and take a little no one ends up getting anything. This country needs to have our politicians agreeing to concede and negotiate. That's the very heart of politics.

Never giving an inch and demanding no concessions also never gets anything done.

189. You, and others from your side of the debate, keep using that

term "majority" when referring to yourselves. By my count, the President Obama-bashers on DU are in the distinct minority, but have a tendency to attempt to out-shout everyone else. Hence the term: vocal minority. This also applies to the pro-gun crowd on DU, who tend to use the same tactics: loud talk, and skewed statistics to prove a flawed opinion.

According to the anti-President Obama minority, anyone who disagrees with venom-laced criticism and outright disrespect of the President instantly becomes an unpatriotic, DLC-loving, "cheerleader," and an Obamatron.

Constructive criticism is fine. Hate speech based on assumptions and half-truths are not criticism, but attacks. There is a difference.

241. Explain which issues you disagree with the left.

The left is fighting for jobs, freedom from domestic spying and the Patriot Act. The left is fighting to feed the 50 million Americans living in poverty. Tell me which of these issues you think are annoying.

293. I don't disagree with any of these issues.

I do disagree with the far left's refusal to compromise when compromise is essential to moving forward on any of these issues.

It's easy to say that principles should not be compromised, but in a 2-party system, the refusal to compromise simply does not work. We must compromise to make progress on any of these issues.

If Obama had not compromised, we'd have nothing. A worse stalemate in Congress, and many millions of people stuck with higher taxes that they cannot afford in this still-struggling economy.

Obama might well have been in a stronger political position if he'd held his ground, but that advantage would have come with a considerable and unacceptable price. Just ask the millions who would have lost their unemployment benefits.

The tension between the far left and more mainstream liberals in the DU community has existed for years (I've been a member since 2000). It will always exist here. The tension's core is not a disagreement on the issues, it's about compromise - how much is each member willing to compromise in the interest of these issues? The mainstream liberals become exasperated with the far left because most believe that the far left sacrifices progress because of their refusal to compromise; the far left becomes exasperated because they believe that the mainstream liberals are compromising principles which, as principles, should never be compromised.

I'm a pragmatist - I'll gladly take 5 steps forward, not 10 or 20, when 5 steps are very achievable and 10-20 are not.

299. Ahh yes pragmatism, the reason we been getting our asses kicked for the last 30 years.

The repukes demand a mile and we compromise and only give them half a mile. Under Bush we lost 10 miles and under Pres Obama we've been gaining it back only a foot at a time. Forgive me for not being thrilled.

Pragmatism works if you are dealing with reasonable people not terrorists. And todays republicans meet the definition of terrorists.

I understand compromise but I also understand that at some point you have to draw the line and fight. Thank Dog that our founders werent pragmatist or we would still be a British colony.

Today we have millions of children living in poverty and going to bed hungry. That is not something I will compromise on.

332. The Republicans compromised away their sacred principle.

Minimizing taxes is the bedrock of the Repub party's principles and they've maintained this principle, untouched, for decades.

They compromised away this principle yesterday. They lost in a very big way.

I don't believe that Boehner is a terrorist. He's just stuck in a very bad place. His extremists remain a minority in the caucus. I don't believe they're terrorists either. They are absolutists who refuse to compromise. And really Rick, in this respect, don't you and they share a similarity?

334. Bear with me. I still have a point or two to make.

You are giving the Republicans way too much credit. "Minimizing taxes" sounds admirable. But the fact is they only want to lower taxes on the uber wealthy. They make no bones about wanting to cut services for the middle class, working class and poor.

My definition of terrorism: The use of fear against persons to intimidate them in furtherance of political or social objectives. This fiscal cliff bullcrap is a good example of them trying to scare the population into giving the wealthy bigger tax breaks and cutting social services for the lower 80%.

148. I call l it a holdover from the 'tough guy' chickenhawk GOP presidencies.

Obama saved lives the only way he could. The lives of those that most people don't know, don't wanna know, and never will. Tough talk is false bravado and Obama has never indulged himself in that luxury. When lives are at stake, you have to bend and he's done a great job of protecting more people than any president since Carter.

22. I guess some DUers figure the GOP for terrorists, LOL.

Or they have watched "Speed" ("shoot the hostage" aka "Boehner") a few times. If Boehner didn't have Cantor on his ass, pretty much breathing down his neck, ready to pull a Tonya Harding in order to get ahead, the man might be semi-reasonable. As it stands, the GOP have f*cked themselves and that herd is ready to stampede over the cliff rather than give our President an inch. Which brings me back to the subject of terrorists...

14. Not a koolaid drinker. Just old.

Sure, I was disappointed that we liberals didn't get every single thing we wanted in this deal. But I fully support this President, and am happy with what he's managed. That being said, the fuckwads in the House will likely not pass it, so I hope DU is fully prepared to take their outrage to the phones this week to back up the deal we want by letting the 'pubs know that we support Obama and we WILL make sure their asses are on the line when every single one of these pieces of shit runs for re-election. WE need to back up our President with action, not sit on our asses criticizing him when he is out there, pretty much alone, trying to negotiate for US.

153. Damn! That was well said!

Stop talking about the Outrage! Conspiracy theories are taking over here.Take it to Congress, they need to hear from us. NOW! This President can not do this alone. Some here talk the talk. Our President walks the walk! It is time for all of us to stand up and take this mans back!

91. Extreme left?

I'm playing poker. I don't know what game you are playing. Politics isn't kindergarten where everything is laid out for everyone to see.

This could be a boon to the next set of debt ceiling debates in that he has Republicans so far over a barrel that they are going over Niagra Falls without the ability to do anything but watch themselves plummet.

182. A perusal of my posts on the subject of the defense budget from 2003 (when I joined DU) until

the present will reveal that I have continually advocated for cuts to the defense budget akin to the cuts that occurred after World War II. I have also jokingly referred to the defense budget as the largest Keynsian program in the history of the known universe but not one whose results merit continuing (losing 2 wars in 10 years has to be some kind of record, I would say).

More to the point, I've been demonstrating in person and in public against our imperial state since, oh, about 1983 (when Reagan was President), as review of my posts will also indicate.

What are your progressive credentials? Or am I 'crazy' to ask?

A $250K limit does not in and of itself cure childhood poverty. But it certainly makes a fuck of a lot more revenue available to begin the process. The plain fact is that Social Security has been one of the most successful anti-poverty programs in the history of the known universe. We now need to focus on the other side of the age spectrum, i.e., those too weak to advocate for their own interests.

I frankly find all the sturm und drang over the so-called fiscal cliff obscene given the massive social dysfunctions that beset this society. But, hey, that's me. Jesus H. Christ, 1% controls 40% of the wealth. Why isn't anyone in power talking about that little fact????

158. +1

18. Compromise is not a problem

*However*

How "entitlements" are defined could become a huge issue. President Obama seems willing to define any of the big 3 as an entitlement, rather than a separate insurance program bought and paid for by the citizens using it.

That doesn't seem like compromise to me. That seems like a false definition based on political expediency that could lead to reduced benefits to people who have paid for benefits for several/many decades.

NOW that it's time to pay up, the gov. wants to go to some kind of "austerity" program...

20. Agree. Sooooo many on this board have little or no understanding of how politics work.

36. No the whining DU members understand, but they are as fucked up as House republicans.

The whining DU members are the reason why President Obama has to deal with a huge deficit, wars and the Fiscal Cliff to begin with, all because the whining, vote their "principles" fucking Left elected GW Bush be being idiot enough to waste their votes on Nader in 2000. If they hadn't wasted those vote, there wouldn't have been a President GW Bush, 9/11 likely wouldn't have happened, we would not have had an Afghan and Iraq war paid for with a credit card and no tax cuts that were not paid for. The people that are whining now should shut the fuck up, they are responsible for the problems that the President, Vice President, House and Senate Democrats are working their asses off to solve.

25. Our president has a mandate from voters

Our Senate has a mandate from voters. If they think they won't be held accountable because they have a majority, both them, and yourself are dreaming. Republicans lost. Deal with it, and it's time to run roughshod over them like they ran roughshod over Democrats all of these years.

46. You didn't answer the question. How in the fuck is the President supposed to work past a

branch of government that the Constitution has given the power of spending and taxation to? If you think the President can use the 14th Amendment to bypass the House, then maybe you should look up the 14th and it's sections and educate yourself. We are fucked unless the republican pigs in the House relent and allow the will of the majority of americans to be realized.

50. I AM the American Middle Class.

And a baby boomer.

I need a job as badly as anyone. I have a stake in what's happening. But I also know that there are realities in the makeup of Congress and the attitudes of some of its members that are not going to disappear so that everyone will magically sign onto progressively ideal legislation.

DU will think what it thinks. I have the right to opine that some people are dead wrong in their assumptions and conclusions.

I think some here are more offended by the fact that others dare to disagree with them. Ironically. Minds are not likely to be changed about who's failing whom in these dealings.

But we all have the right to advance our opinions, even if they aren't in lockstep. Isn't that a dirty word around here?

24. Just a word of advice.

29. I will be satisfied

When Republicans get painted into a corner, forced to compromise, and pretty much have their faces buried in the dirt like Democrats have since 1980. Not because I hate them. But because their policies are so destructive that over the last 32 years they have nearly decimated the nation. Their party has a lot to answer for, and those of us in the white, middle aged, upper middle class regions? We know who is to blame.

You're welcome, I knew you wondered what the true goal was of the younger members of the party were. It's to make certain that trickle-down, supply side economics never, ever get a hold on our nation, and that we return to a more fair and prosperous tax rate that taxes those that make the most the highest, and those that make the least the lesser.

53. KRUGMAN SAYS IT BEST

So why the bad taste in progressives’ mouths? It has less to do with where Obama ended up than with how he got there. He kept drawing lines in the sand, then erasing them and retreating to a new position. And his evident desire to have a deal before hitting the essentially innocuous fiscal cliff bodes very badly for the confrontation looming in a few weeks over the debt ceiling.

64. Thank you!!

Well said, especially your last point. Lots of bitching, no solutions. Personally, I'm as happy as can be that Obama is our president. Imagine if McCain had won in 08; the board would have self destructed by now.

59. No flame here either.

The Republicans are so glued to their ideology that it doesn't even concern them if they drive this country over a cliff. I can't even imagine what the Democrats have to deal with then they try to negotiate with a group of people that are just a bunch of whiny crybabies. I know that I could not do it because I just don't have the patience. It is obvious that for any progress to be made there has to be compromise and I figure if both sides find something to dislike about it then that will be about the best we can do.

I refuse to put any energy into the idea of complaining about the Democrats because it is the Republicans that are the problem. All I can think about is shoving responsibility for the failure of Congress to act at the feet of the Congressional Republicans. I think that the Democrats should be working on their mid-term election game plan to pound the crap out of the House Republicans. Get the people riled up and keep them that way.

62. I'm in full agreement with you

A well run government has differences and it has negotiations and it has concessions and all of that is done through politics. When you have a one party government you get Bush and what we have now. A disproportionate amount of the advantages go to the one party, and the other party is left to flounder because no one is able to representing them.

63. The President has a tea party infested House to deal with

I expected some compromise from the $250K figure. In the biggest cities of more than a couple of states, a husband and wife can have joint earnings that easily exceed that, and after paying for state and local taxes, high mortgage payments, and maybe a couple of college educations, they sure don't feel hyper-rich. Sen. Schumer knows what I'm talking about, he's made the same case for quite some time now.

Here's what I don't understand: $450K for a married couple, but $400K for a single individual? Isn't that oddly disproportionate? I can see all kinds of well-off people getting a paper divorce, then living together to have income under the cutoff, whatever it comes out to be. It would just be viewed as the kind of tax planning that they pay CPAs and tax attorneys to advise them on.

154. Yeah. If only people would stop getting shot by them so much, your life would be peachy.

66. You know,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this and any other issue. They are also entitled to express that opinion, just as you are doing. I believe this post to be dancing on the line of a call out of DU members who may just have a different opinion than the OP.

95. Actually here at DU...

Sometimes different opinions will get you canned. I have seen it time and time again. That's why I usually just read through instead of post how I really feel. I see myself as a Constitutional Democrat and feel that many views here are way extreme. So the OP isn't that far off IMO.

109. We will have to agree

to disagree. Opinions stated in a civil manner to my knowledge have never caused anyone to be canned, but I may be wrong. I do find the sweeping generalizations of the OP to be beyond absurd. I wasn't aware that we only had to have the opinions that are approved by certain individuals.

192. Well,

I differ with the President on many things and I feel very comfortable. One must remember that the posts on this board are nothing more than the opinion of the poster (that and two bucks will get you a cup of coffee) . They can have their say, post as they like, but it still comes down to just an opinion. Their opinion is no more valid than yours or mine (and frankly, folks can agree with me if they like and if they don't I still sleep very well at night). Then of course there are those handy trash thread and ignore options available. Life is too short to allow rude people to get you down.

184. Actually, the post I was responding

to dealt with being banned for "differing opinions." That is not true, as evidenced by the fact that you, and the poster, are still here.

Disagreeing with "criticism" is a different matter, and it would do us all well to remember that criticism works both ways. If it seems to you like there is "no room for any criticism at all," perhaps the arguments that you use to support your criticism are not all that convincing. It is not against the TOS to disagree with and counter-criticize, those who criticize President Obama or the Democratic Party.

I know for a fact that there are still remnants of vitriol and anger left over from the 2008 Primaries, which I suspect is a part of the "criticism" antagonism from both sides of that unfortunate episode.

What I was actually responding to, however, has to do with the influx of right-wings trolls (as identified by MIRT) which have attacked DU in recent weeks. Their RNC, NRA, and Tea Party "talking points" have been extremely transparent, and it's likely that they are appearing in so many numbers due to a concentrated effort by other right-wing web sites which monitor DU 24/7.

187. I supported Obama in 2008, strongly.

I don't think that has anything to do with it. In the 10 plus years I have been at DU I have never been so uncomfortable posting anything. If it is trolls people are speaking of, they need to say so clearly. We "Deaniacs" were blasted for our adoration in 2003/2004. (rightly so as I look back)....and I see the same type of thing here now.

190. Somehow I believe that

both DU and the Democratic Party will survive, and become even stronger in the future. The Republicans have overstayed their welcome with the American people, and once again we Democrats have stepped up to the plate and cleaned up their mess.

Have we managed to undo eight long years of mismanagement and corruption? No, not even close, but we are making progress (as in Progressive).

I don't care if you don't praise President Obama (seems your side has trouble attaching his title to his name, and prefer to call him "Obama" like our opponents), but I will counter any unfair and disrespectful bashing for bashing's sake when I see it.

193. What is "my side"?

"I don't care if you don't praise President Obama (seems your side has trouble attaching his title to his name, and prefer to call him "Obama" like our opponents), but I will counter your unfair and disrespectful bashing for bashing's sake when I see it."

I don't bash him, never have. Not everything in this world is about him. Teachers are hurting under his policies, and that is not going away.

There needs to be some way here to separate those of us who are NOT trolls...(how can I be a troll with 76 thousand plus posts) with those who really may be?

196. I didn't call you

a troll, and I don't believe that you are. I answered your response to a reply I posted to someone else, and explained the reasoning behind my post. You can take it anyway you want, but you seem a little too overly sensitive to any criticism of your views in my opinion.

Chill out, and have a Happy New Year...

PS I changed the wording in my previous post to read "any" instead of "your," which was what I meant to say.

243. How did you get 77,000 posts

257. They are from the other DU.

Oh, I can share opinions. Everyone can. But there is much use of ugly rhetoric toward those of us who seriously question his policies like education. I just came back to DU after almost a year. Trust me it's very very different.

I can share, I can post. But is it worth it to keep having to say I am "not an Obama-hater"?

318. no,saying Naderite is my favorite (used as a negative to 3rd party ites)

282. If you have a side... i'm on it.

You are one of the few balanced voices left here at DU. This place has MORPHED again. I stopped coming here for awhile during the DU3 transition, but some of the old posters and their insights drew me back in. I remember when DU actually had people who researched issues, brought serious discussions into the mix, charts and data, y'know with links. This used to be the first place i went to to get News.

I usually go to the Greatest Page and for the past few months there have been so many repeat threads, meaningless callouts, outright blather, etc. What happened to the News? What happened to the Dialogue? What happened to the Insight? GD has become an echo chamber.

My Dad, Brother, Sister-in-Law and Uncle are teachers. For years i have been hearing the same frustrated concerns you have been voicing about our Education policy and the deterioration of our schools from them and reading your posts in tandem. Thank YOU Mad, for being there for teachers when TOO MANY people here at DU aren't. I appreciate you, as i know so many other here do too.

Happy New Year! Don't take this online shit too seriously... there's Life to live!

205. I don't think I've EVER seen Madfloridian

do any unfair or disrespectful bashing of OBama. Yes, I call him OBama, just like I called Bush, Bush and Clinton, Clinton. I see no need to to say "President." I know he's the president, you know he's the president.

And what's this "your side" BS? Since I'm a progressive Democrat... that would make "your side" conservative Republican. If you are conservative Republican, what are you doing here?

Seems to me liberals get unfairly and disrespectfully bashed here constantly, and in the administration, too... OBama's former right-hand man called us all "fucking retarded." The ones who are always stomping around and shouting the loudest are the neo-libs who chide any who dare criticise the President.

OBama called himself a moderate Republican. There's video of him saying that...you can look it up if you'd like. If that's what you wanted, then you must be a very happy person, because we sure got us a moderate Republican.

I didn't vote for Nader, and I haven't sat out an election since I turned 18. So the person who wrote that us liberals voted for Nader and sat out 2010 is full of crap. Even though, most of the time, I have to hold my nose when I vote, I still vote Democratic. I find it amusing that liberals are now being called RW trolls.

90. Tell me more about Bernie Sanders being a filthy capitalist.

You are aware that he voted for this?

The only card Republicans had to play was the thousands of Americans who suddenly find themselves stripped of unemployment benefits. They played that card to the tune of raising the tax cuts to $400K. I'll accept that, as Bernie did.

If you're suggesting that these folks should go without their benefits for the sake of a line in the sand and liberal purism, then I don't have much else to say to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

131. Whew.

At least you let us all know how little you know about politics and how Washington works. Citing Bernie's vote is so clueless. Can you show me where Bernie says that this was a good idea?

So you wanna flame me because of Bernie's vote? Is the fact that you champion a bill that mitch mcconnel voted for mean that you support his ideas?

Now. As for the rest of your uninformed blather. Try reading any of the hundreds of articles and posts by progressive and even the moderately left that point out how the "cliff" was a shibboleth that meant nothing. If the idiot republicans in the house don't pass the bill, we will get a better one in the next week. There was not any chance of unemployment benefits being cut by Dems or a majority of the pubs. Try to keep up with what is going on if you want to comment.

174. ?? Unemployment benefits for thousands of Americans are currently EXPIRED.

They were part of the cliff and they ain't coming back until the House votes to extend them.

Bernie has been very vocal about what he would and would not vote for during this process. This passed muster for him.

And yes, we will get a better bill if House Republicans don't vote for it. It's entirely likely they won't. And it's entirely likely the administration knew that when negotiating this bill. That's how badly the Republicans have fucked up with this.

75. Thats no cave it's a sp... ahem

No I don't see any cave in site. Not if the majority (massive majority as in all..) conservatives are bitching. At least on the left it's not quite as bad. I didn't expect the $250,000 min to pass. I'm surprised a $400,000 mark actually did. If Obama caved that would be maybe $900,000. So we care complaining about the up on limit by $150,000?? bonk , this is called a panic where people yell at other Dems etc. hey the Republicans are in a civil war not us.

78. K&R

86. I am not going to Flame

I am okay with this deal for now, if it passes. The only thing that bothers me about it, is we have to go through all this again in March. I wish they could have given us at least a year's break from all this "drama."

120. 1. I believe that much of the lost revenue in the 250K-400K bracket...

...will be recouped in increased spending (yes, I'll admit, a bit of trickle-down)

2. I think we all know the real battle is defense spending. Having given up a bit in revenue, Dems are better poised to make a dent here, IMO. Republicans are certainly more poorly poised to defend it given their current performance ratings.

159. Silly....

The President is not a true Defense cutter, he is trying to help stave off sequestration ffs...and the Democrats in congress don't ever try and force him to do things he doesn't want to....

He fiddles around the edges with some weapons systems and trvial cuts, but he is the CIC and has never given me reason to believe that he will lower the deficit with cuts to the military....

Nope he is the one bought in on SS cuts we will get chained CPI on SS and probably worse before all is said and done.

He just squandered an aboslute wonderful opportunity to really soak the rich... He could have allowed the thugs to take us over the cliff assigning all political blame to them.... then he could have had Democrats draft and push a tax cut for those making 200K and below and a tax increase for those making above (pick your defined rich man amount) and increased them to 45 percent or more... He could have then dared Repubs not to support the tax cut and the net would have gotten him a serious chunk out of the deficit and better negotiating position for the debt ceiling i.e., he could simply say that deficit reduction can be accomplished by cutting deductions in the tax code and that combined with the big tax increases would have netted him enough to have his cake and eat it too...

but you dreamers keep talking about cutting defense, won't, can't happen both sides poltiiticans are beholden to the MIC...

114. Rome all over again,

115. I Agree Fully With Your Sentiments About DU of Late

Yes we are the Left but sometimes we sound like the loony Left the Right talks about. Some feel that we should have not compromised one damn inch to get a deal. I for one am not sure how to accomplish that but perhaps those who complain about any compromises made by the Dems know. If not they should rethink their position that this is a "cave in".

118. Speaking of not understanding how politics work...

The deal isn't a temporary extension of the Bush tax cuts for those making under $450k, but a permanent one. Which means to undo it, you're going to have to get politicians to agree to raise taxes on people making $450k and below. This is going to cost us ~$2.8 trillion in the next ten years, and you better believe that the increases to the debt that it causes are going to have the right-wing coming with knives for any social program they can. Perhaps we can make up for some of that through closing loopholes or raising taxes on the rich. But if you don't think that the right are going to demand some social spending cuts to pay for this deal, you haven't been paying attention.

Oh, and don't forget that the Republicans may gain power again in the next few years. Bush was able to use surpluses to push massive tax cuts; the next Republican president very well may use deficits to push massive spending cuts.

122. That's a six hundred billion dollar difference and with the

400,000 dollar level cast in stone, there is no latitude on revenue when the February real cliff comes up and suddenly we're talking chained CPI and "means testing". That's what's going to happen. That's what the Republicans meant this morning when they said they now have greater leverage. I've been doing politics for 48 years now. The deal we got was marginal at best. When you win a presidency by as much we did with a president winning by over 51 per cent for only the second consecutive run times in history since Eisenhower, you don't have to pussyfoot around. And that's politics 101 Johnson style. Come February let's see what happens next.

260. Obama never was a "liberal".

Obama has always been a doll that everyone painted the face they wanted on. He is a politician and thank God/ess for that! He is the man we force him to be. I find that many on the left are just either lazy or ignorant of the political process, and the squeaky wheel gets grease. Call the white house, call representatives, write write write. It works.

And join the Democratic party locally if you can, to do something. it is how the Republicans in their Southern Strategy stole the south, and how the Tea Party took over the Republicans, we should do no less.

134. NO CUTS FOR BIG WAR. Bad idea.

146. That's the big one for me. The neglect to cut military spending is

tacit approval for starting endless wars. I don't know whether we are ancient Rome or the late great British Empire, but with this endless military spending we are headed for destruction. And that won't matter if we have a drone watching every crosswalk. Russia and/or China will finally say Enough and they'll be an ICBM headed for DC. And that particular cliff once breached will never be mounted again. I know there is a hidden text here, and I am fairly confident I know what it is. But this is not place to discuss it.

179. I have not seen that, do you have a link?

138. i usually pore over DU and read so much every day

but lately with the fiscal cliff i've just backed off. thank you for validating my decision. the whole issue is so frustrating anyway. i do believe for what it's worth that the president and the vice president have worked hard for the american people. republicans particularly those in the house drive me apeshit. they so clearly do not give a rat's ass about the country. it's so damn clear.

141. You are so spot on

I'm glad to see someone spell it out. It's called negotiation, not a cave. You start at one figure but are willing to give a little to get to a larger goal. I too am tired of the teabagger-like inflexibility around here.

151. Same Shit, Different Day

I simply must remind myself that we FDR Democrats must share the same space as the New Dems (Blue Dogs) on this board.

After reviewing the responses here, I cannot believe how the "New Dems" are treating the traditional Dems in this thread. The name calling reveals exactly what they are about. Disgusting! FDR Dems seem to be the only ones holding the banner of true Dem principles while beIng called out as the "looney left" and being on the fringe. Someone here even stated that some on the left are jealous of other Dems that have money. Sound familiar?

Yes...this place has changed. I really miss the days when I was just considered a Democrat and not someone on the looney left.

168. + a million

There are plenty of real progressives still here, fortunately, and you are right about the nauseating tone of many responses on this thread. Lots of liberal/progressive bashing, and I don't think most of these posters even realize a lot of them are sounding like freepers/right wingers.

326. +1000000000000

156. It's not what I would have wanted either.

However, as the Rolling Stones said so many years ago, "you can't always get what you want."

I will give Mr. Obama credit for at least trying. That's a hell of a lot more than we would have got from Romney, who would have had the Bush tax cuts enshrined in Holy Writ, not to mention doing his hardest to undo the ACA (he promised to do that, remember?).

Yes, on a lot of things Mr. Obama has tacked too far to the centre-right for me. I would have liked to have seen him go for single-payer health care (he tried to build on the existing non-system partly to try to get Republicans on board, which was never going to happen) or at least buck Max Baucus on the public option. I am disappointed that Guantanamo Bay is still open, and that the USA Patriot Act still exists.

However, I was even more disappointed in Bill Clinton when the Republicans wouldn't even let his health care reform bill be voted on...he just turned over and let them (and Rush Limbaugh) kick him. He tried as hard as he could to be "Republican-lite" for his second term, even when they tried to BBQ him over Monica Lewinsky.

Mr. Obama has not been perfect, but I never expected perfection from him.

Remember too that the GOP has let Grover Norquist grab them by their collective short-and-curlies. He, Wayne LaPierre and Rush Limbaugh are their ideological overlords.

I consider myself left-of-centre (if not socialist) on most things. However, I served in the military and am proud of it, and I am a Christian and refuse to be shamed because of that, neither of which go down well with some members of DU. Live with it.

Like my dad used to say, "opinions are like assholes...everybody's got one and they all stink, but some more than others."

157. + 1 billion - no flame from me!

We have to start somewhere and there's no way perfection was going to be achieved. I'm not 100% happy with the whole thing but it's better than nothing and it's making the Rs barking mad and they're going to drown themselves in their own bath tub and that makes me happiest of all.

I'm so sick of the hystrionics and BS being spread by the nervous nellies who would rather bitch than put actual skin in the game by getting their asses out there to run for office.

166. Yes.

171. my my, another "lefty fringe", blah blah,blah post

no doubt based on the comments from a few/small percentage of posters.

The only question that remains is whether or not it is motivated by the same desire to silence any and all criticism that has grown so prevalent around here. We can never ever tell because there is never any evidence/examples provided, making them pretty much hollow and useless claims.

What's particularly amusing is the implicit, and in some cases, explicit claim of many in that obscenely intolerant crowd that they have superior if not a monopoly on political acumen. The reality is, while this "deal", should it go through, may be tolerable and acceptable in some ways, it is objectively unreasonable in others.

This is really nothing more than the late middle/early end game, and the outcome of "the game" is still in doubt, as is the wisdom of these moves already made. I'm surprised that those so full of themselves and political acumen either didn't know or have forgotten that.

“While some appear to think his team folded in the cliff debate, I don’t see it that way,” Mr. Bernstein said. “They saw a plausible path forward, and they took it. My point is it’s only plausible if they really don’t get derailed on the debt ceiling debate.”

Should BHO be willing to "negotiate" over the debt ceiling with wood like chained-cpi, etc, after drawing a line in the sand over that like most presumed the 250K figure to be, can we expect another "lefty fringe doesn't know how politics work" post from you should criticism follow another "change" some have come to expect and believe in?

197. It's really kind of amusing, I'm one of the harsher Obama critics here although I don't do OPs much

I personally like Obama in many ways but I have learned from painful experience not to trust anyone at all completely and I have no idea what he is actually trying to accomplish so it makes it difficult for me to support him when he may or may not be playing 11 dimensional chess.

180. COMPROMISE

Sometimes it's hard to let go of party loyalty and look at the whole picture. And sometimes drawing a line in the sand and demonstrating leadership when core values are at stake is also how politics work. We compromised with the war hawks in Afghanistan. We compromised with the Wall Street banksters. We compromised our civil liberties. We compromised with the drug companies and health insurance companies. We compromised our values ignoring the previous administration's use of torture and manufacturing war . We compromised our integrity by appointing the VP of Monsanto as a senior adviser to the FDA. We continue to compromise the planet allowing the oil and "clean" coal companies to write our energy polices. Next up, cutting the public safety net defended by two generations of Democratic leaders. And that too will be rationalized as a necessary compromise. After all, only the vast majority of democrats and the majority of the public are against the cuts to Medicare and Social Security as they were against raising the cap for the Bush tax cuts. But you see, we have these irrational extreme RW Republicans who must be continually appeased and apparently for some that's how politics work.

185. I agree that DU has gone over a cliff...

...and it's maddening. I hate to see everyone at each others throats. We're all Democrats, are we not?

Koch Brother Teabaggers grew from the fact that PO was elected in 2008, the country was left with GWBs big financial mess, the stupid electorate gave the Teabaggers the House in 2010, and now the "Republican Party" is supposedly entangled in a civil war (which is a good thing.)

And what are we doing??? Tearing each other limb form limb! Look it...I dream of another FDR almost every day. But for some ungodly reason, they must have broken the mold, because an old-fashioned FDR type is nowhere to be found. The year is now 2013, not the 1930s, and Barack Obama is our President. GWB's style for 8 long effing years was "my-way-or-the-highway." Do we think PO should do the same thing? I say, no. It was wrong when GWB did it and it would be wrong now if PO did it.

So, here we are and we must work with what we've got. PO is NOT a total failure because he's not a GWB or an FDR. Yes, I wish he would go further. Sometimes I feel like pulling my hair out. The world's going to hell in a hand-basket. We come to DU for some sanity and some kind of solace and meeting of the minds and what do we find? A great big war of words. Sometimes I think we even have some serious trolling going on.

I hope in the new year we can be a little more tolerant of each others differing views of what it means to be a Democrat.

186. +1

254. "We're all Democrats, are we not?"

You can never be too sure about that. Wingnut trolls have been known to want to infiltrate left-leaning sites in attempt to start some shit on the forums, whether it's posting some RW talking points or pretending to be hardcore libs and attacking various Dems from the left.

317. I know...

...I think trolls are a big problem, but I am speaking to the nontrolls. I'd probably get allerted on if I said what needs to be done to them SOBs, so I won't. Just let your imagination go wild about what we need to do to those trolls...

191. People are mostly going to focus on the payroll tax hike.

The payroll tax holiday (which should never have existed in the first place) will end and people will see a large decrease in their take home pay, unless taxes are cut somewhere else.

I personally will take a hit of about 50 dollars, not a lot in the scheme of things but enough to make me worried about money in the coming months. People do not understand that this was a tax cut that shouldn't have happened in the first place, but they are dependent on the money now. And it will also give the Republicans ammunition for the next election.

Hair on fire threads every 14 damn seconds. Constant screaming about everything, facts be damned. Folks who just absolutely HAVE to post threads "reminding" all of us (as if we are ever, EVER given the opportunity to forget) how much they dislike/distrust this president even as negotiations were still happening.

It's a sad situation but I knew 2 things would happen re: the fiscal cliff: 1) no matter WHAT the president did, GD would scream about it. 2) the main people that would be the most up in arms would be the denizens of GD and the Republicans -- oh, what strange bedfellows! And damn if I wasn't right on both counts.

It's strange that, for the amount of interest in politics on this board, how many don't seem to understand how they work.

228. Actually, it sounds to me that there are plenty of people on this board who fit the profile

that the OP mentioned to a T -- for all of their "knowledge" of politics, they don't have the first damn clue how to actually APPLY that knowledge in any meaningful way besides screaming their heads off.

You may consider that "carrying the Democratic banner" but I and a whoooole bunch of others call it counter-productive stupidity. And damn, it's annoying.

233. I Wish I could Buy In Like That

Obama is another "he's not as bad as the other guy" guy to so many of us. So quite a few of us are weary of it and would like to see a real liberal.

One thing he just said made me scream at my TV. It was when he said he agreed that Medicare was the biggest drain on the budget or something like that. It's just not true, it's the defense budget but nobody outside Kucinich and a few others both see that and have the spine to mouth it.

All of our infrastructure is crumbling and the longer we let it go to build more planes and tanks and let billionaires skate on taxes the more unreliable it will become.

236. DU is doing just fine, most of the time

Budget negotiations are a complex process, true. Washington is full of rumors that get reported as news. It's no wonder that people don't always have the right facts. But when the president backs away from a campaign promise, even if you thinks it's for the greater good, DU'ers have a right to protest it.

What this place needs is more civility and empathy. And patience. People really need to try harder to be more non-judgmental.

251. Many here agree with you!

Unfortunately, the complainers are the noisier of the bunch.

There was a time when you could post here without receiving ugly replies from other Dems, but civility went out the window when GWB and his ilk were in power. Now, we are left with many bullies here at DU.

I used to embrace the fact that Dems did not walk in lockstep like the Right Wingers. But, it has become a badge of honor around here to complain, criticize and. Just find fault with everything President Obama does.

252. I'm tired of posts like this

Everybody and their brother seems to be making posts about "how politics works" on this site, but I see precious little evidence that those who use the phrase understand politics outside of watching CNN. I see the magic words "compromise" and "negotiation" thrown about, but, honestly, I often get the feeling that they're used for their talismanic quality, as opposed to actual description. It sounds like sports fans talking about their team trying to pick up a new player as opposed to informed citizens watching their government like hawks (necessary no matter who's in office). It has the feel of the self-appointed "enlightened" deigning to lecture the poor, unwashed proles on "reality." The worst part is that I suspect it's almost always ignorant condescension, which just makes it more insulting. It's an annoying trait on this board and I'd prefer to see it gone.

258. After four years of total, intransigent obstruction by the GOP

We should be enjoying this moment -- when our president and
vice president deftly steered the country farther to "the left".

It may not be as ideal as I/we would have it, but it's a big gain
in the direction we desire. Finally, after four years of stonewalling,
a big chunk of legislation is passed in favor of the Blue Team (who
have held the Senate and Executive Office for four years!)

Aside from the Affordable Care Act, this is a huge accomplishment.
The GOP may be waking from their delusions a little bit. Democrats
won the last election; the GOP lost. The majority of Americans don't
buy their talking points and bullshit anymore. The greed-heads who
broke the country with their fascist policies are now being held to
account and to pay for the damage they wreaked.

Yup, it's not $250,000; it's only $400,000. BUT the rate is 39.6%
rather than some lesser rate the republicans were pushing to get.

Appreciate that the inertia has changed. Congress is no longer a
"body at rest" (i.e. doing nothing just to spite President Obama)

259. That clique would express only tepid support of the President if he...

Personally dawned a black hoodie and tossed molotov cocktails into a Starbucks, Toyota dealership and Apple Store before pissing on the sidewalk at an Occupy rally and then lighting up a dutch master while officiating a wiccan same-sex wedding before admonishing the witch couple for the made in China witch figurines on their cake.

275. FDR and the New Deal are the touch point of the Democratic party. If you cannot own that you

are not a democrat QED. The Civil Rights Act, the Great Society initiatives were all about taking care of the whole of America.

Those of us who have fought the long battle against the creep to the right were not extreme in 1964, 1968 or 1972. We did not cave over the Contra wars or the Gulf wars. We are tired of those who don't really care what that history is, who cannot see the past as reference to the future.

How the goals are reached can have as much impact as getting there does. Deal with it!

280. And President Obama is about taking care of the whole of America

1968,1980,2000 showed what 3rd parties and fractures can do

10% forward is a helleva lot better than 100% of nothing or going backward

those Naderites and 3rd party ites and the RonPaulites should go to those sites and post there and btw, Ron Paul makes now $50,000 a speech of less than an hour. Talk about the 1%.
Wish I could make $50,000 for speaking gibberish and then flying off in a private jet and doing it 4 times a day. Hell in 5 days I could make a million off the very people he bilked being congress getting nothing accomplished

and I see Bernie Sanders voted FOR the bill.
Takes the wind out of those who said Bernie was the only one they trusted
Seems Bernie trusts Obama, so those that love Bernie should love Obama.
(same thing with Kucinich the last 4 years, when his vote was needed, he voted with Obama every single time).

people seem not to realize the Al Frankens, the Bernies, the Kucinich's are ALL team players
(which thankfully the other side doesn't adhere too, hence their civil war which is better for us in the long term)

I really think lots of people do not realize how the US works and has worked since the declaration of independence.(which was trash anyhow in that all men are created equal did not mean women or anyone that didn't look like Thomas Jefferson or act like he personally did).
Glad Jefferson is finally getting a re-look at and more and more finding he was a disgusting human being and an A#1 hypocrite.

303. +1

281. I've realized that Democrats need both

fiery ideologues and the negotiators. The former without the latter scares the tepid public, and the latter without the former looks toothless to our opponents. Friction between these halves is normal, but sometimes we need to get a grip and drop the pitchforks.

284. Compromise

I,too, think compromise is essential to any democracy. If we expect republicans to compromise, then Democrats should too and model acceptable was to govern instead of saying NO to everything.
If we want republicans to work with us, then we need to stand true to democratic principles.

286. I just joined this site a few days ago

But I have to agree with you.

If I didn't know that there will ALWAYS be a split between people who are politically invested in politics and people who are emotionally invested in politics, regardless of party affiliation, I would have been sorely disappointed by many of the comments that I saw regarding the fiscal cliff compromise.

292. Not a flame (hopefully)

I guess I would be considered "far left" in today's political climate: I would love a social-welfare democracy like Sweden, Norway, even Germany. However, I understand what is and isn't possible in America.

But I am concerned about this deal. I want Obama to be successful and I want to avoid financial pain for the most vulnerable in America. But I also know that part of the calculus is leverage and many liberal economists I trust (Krugman, Reich, etc.) felt that Obama could have used the leverage of the cliff (even if we went over it) to get more with giving less. And there are still more hostage situations coming up (i.e., the debt ceiling) where strong backbone will be needed.

I'm reserving judgment on this until I read and know more. But from those who think we should "stop whining," I'd rather hear them address in a concrete way the concerns that: (1) we've lost the leverage against a debt ceiling confrontation, (2) we may not be able to trust Obama to hold out against social program cuts when dealing with the sequester given that he uses the rhetoric of belt-tightening, etc.

By all means, let's disagree - that's what makes this site interesting and not an echo chamber. But let's not attack each other. There's enough of that going on.

294. K & R

296. No flames from me. I am SICK of the whining

from people who are supposedly dems. People woked damn hard getting him re-elected, and now they turn into crybabies at the first thing. He isn't Santa Claus, people. The ones screaming are as bad as repukes frankly.

305. Okay.

When the Republican/right agenda is allowed at the table, and the agenda of the American left is not, you don't get honest, authentic compromise.

This deal could have been worse, to be sure. It could have been a hell of a lot better, too, and would have been if agenda items from the American left were ever allowed on the table to begin with.

One way to raise revenues is to increase taxes; that was on the table. We might have made better gains here if the other way to raise revenues was allowed.

Another way to raise revenues is to increase spending. That was not on the table.

Was strengthening SS on the table? Lowering the retirement age, increasing the benefits? SS does not add to the deficit, but it does add to the economy, since those dollars tend to be SPENT, not saved. If cutting SS can be on the table, then strengthening should damned well have been there, too.

Was stimulating the economy through domestic government spending on the table? Austerity is a terrible drag on economic growth. Or did we just accept that the only spending allowed would be military spending, and that austere domestic cuts would somehow help?

Was supporting American workers and their rights on the table? Higher earnings = more taxes paid, more spending.

These are just 3 of many items that could have been on the table, could have been considered, but weren't.

I don't think this place has gone crazy, unless you think the only reason this place exists is to be an echo chamber applauding the "Baracking" of America every time the left gets left off the table.

307. Don't be so hard own your DU sisters and brothers

it is in our nature to be critical, many of us aren't so easily pleased. I think skeptics and naysayers play a crucial role, it is their words and work, that don't let the powers that be, basked in self-congratulatory when there is much work to be done.

309. Those Outraged Have Almost Certainly Never Negotiated Anything of Significance in Their Entire Lives

Otherwise they would realize that $250k was the opening bid. That's how negotiations work. It was positioning, Obama went in with $250, knowing he'd move on it. Just like Repubs went in with $1m. The fact that we didn't split the difference, but came EVEN LOWER than half what the GOP's opening gambit was, means Obama got the best of them on AT LEAST that point.

310. Excellent, excellent, excellent...sorry I read this after so many responses...

...you are entirely correct. If the average DUer doesn't get 110% of what THEY want (forget the others) they bitch and moan and whine.

Except for the fact that the cost cuts have to be revisited within the next two months I think this deal is GREAT, much more than any rational, practical Democrat/liberal/progressive could have hoped for. McConnell is the one who caved, and he's going to be eating a lot of crow for several months.

Glad I'm not the only one around here who is getting sick of all the bitching...........it's getting really out of hand.

323. Excellent post

For me, it's the "if you don't agree with me, that makes you a; DINO, DLC, Third Way, New Democrat, Conservative, Cheerleader."

The saints of self-proclaimed leftier than thou chorus have attempted to affix labels up one side of this site and down the other, and as the response to your OP reflects, many of us have had our fill of being grossly mis characterized by a group of people who are blinded by their self-righteous cynicism and contempt for those who don't march in the lockstep of their choosing.

They have officially achieved caricature status in my book. People who use these labels in their posts as a matter of course, have systematically diminished their credibility as good faith contributors on this board.

331. You are a stronger person then me.

I had to take time off from DU - still donate, but can no longer tolerate the shrill, discordant voices from the 'my way or the highway' crowd. Only check back occasionally and today your post caught my eye.

You make perfect sense, but I'm sure you'll be raked over the coals by the 'purists' who think any form of negotiation is tantamount to surrender.

333. Its not a tax hike, its a massive tax cut...

A $4 trillion tax cut, to be precise. That is the amount of money that would have been raised had taxes been allowed to the Clinton-era rates. Instead, most of the Bush tax cuts are to be made permanent. That's a very significant win for the Republicans, especially when their bargaining position was so difficult. All the Democrats had to do to get their tax hikes was to sit there.

The issues relating to spending have not been resolved. Indeed they have been magnified given that the tax "hike" has been confined to those earning $450k+. The revenues from this will work out to about $70-80 billion a year. That leaves a massive budget deficit that someone with more fortitude than our current leaders is going to have to resolve.

The CBO says that under the Biden-McConnell compromise, the deficit for Fiscal Year 2013 will be $971 billion, vs $1040 billion if the Bush tax cuts were extended. It is true that 3 months of the fiscal year have gone already so the true increase will be perhaps around the $80 billion mark or so.

But in its analysis of the Senate-passed plan, the CBO said fiscal 2013 revenues would be $280 billion lower and spending $50 billion higher, resulting in a $330 billion deficit increase, for a total deficit of around $971 billion.

Under the CBO's keep-taxes-unchanged scenario, the deficit would be $1.04 trillion for fiscal 2013.

But a $970 billion deficit vs a $1040 billion deficit is not much of a difference in the scheme of things. The problem is that there are many more people earning $250k to $450k than those earning above those levels. It might not seem like a caving but in terms of revenues raised, it pretty much is. Personally I would have allowed the tax rates to increase back to Clinton era levels. By international standards the Clinton era tax rates were not very large.

But the fact remains that no nation can sustain trillion dollar deficits for very long. Either taxes will need to rise, or the government will need to find massive spending cuts, and not just to defence.