Team competition at Sochi

Sorry if this is "old news," but there doesn't seem to be a search function on this forum...
Anyway, buried in the figure skating qualifying procedures for Sochi (the short version: 75% of the spots filled through the 2013 Worlds, and the remaining 25% through the 2013 Nebelhorn Trophy), are the instructions for the "team competition" for Sochi.

According to the document, there will be 10 countries (which will qualify based on the 2013-14 ISU Grand Prix events and the 2013 Worlds / Europeans / Four Continents), which enter one man, one woman, one pair, and one dance couple, each of which skate a short program (presumably separately from the non-team competitions for those disciplines); the top five teams (based on 10 for first, 9 for second, and so on) then skate a free skate/dance, and the placing points are added to the short program placing points to determine the final results.

The qualifying documents (for speed skating as well as figure skating) are available in a ZIP file here. (The details on the team competition are in an appendix near the end.)

Glad to find out more detail. I was guessing they would just use the results of selected skaters during their normal competition. For example, if the U.S. selected Wagner, Abbott, D/W and E/L then just use their placements (or points totals) and after the last event (ladies) you can name the medalists. It might seem pointless but this would appeal to people who think figure skaters are so fragile that they can't possible skate another program or two while in Russia. I like this more, though, a separate competition. I do wonder how they will squeeze it in. Before or after individual events?

Thanks for the update! I'm curious as to how this is going to work out in reality. It'll be cut from 10 nations to five to the top three? Not a fan of the idea at all, since I think the Olympic medals should go to the best individual figure skaters only, but we'll see what this is like!

FYI - I don't know if you can search through the entire FSU forum, but in Great Skate Debate (and presumably any other section), there's a search function in the upper right corner ("Search This Forum").

I wonder how they're going to find time to do it. Right now, the Sochi 2014 schedule has the figure skating/short track speed skating venue having events every day.

I was going to say that they would probably change the rules and just use the "individual" event performances towards the team event, but they can't, as all of the short programs have to be done before any of the free skates (since the short programs determine which five teams advance to the free skate portion).

I think it might backfire to have skaters reuse their programs. A lot of casual fans don't realize that you keep the same program for multiple competitions. The ones I know who don't realize this are always disappointed when they find it out, too!

Are there even 10 countries that compete in all four disciplines at this level? (I know it's lazy to ask, but I am betting someone on this board knows the answer and can point to stats, ha ha ha.)

I wonder how they're going to find time to do it. Right now, the Sochi 2014 schedule has the figure skating/short track speed skating venue having events every day.

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My understanding is that the team event takes place before the other disciplines.
You are right about the venue of Short track and FIGS being close to full ( I believe there is only 1 dark day).
They may have to resort to skating the team event before the opening ceremonies..like some of the team events in the Summer Olympics.

The team competition seems to me to be joke. Can you imagine someone like Rachael Flatt winning a gold medal if she's on the US team? She will have as many Olympic Gold medals as someone like Yuna Kim.

Well, then what would stop countries from having all men, then? Someone like Kevin Reynolds would still get a way higher score in his LP than, say, Virtue/Moir.

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Each team is allowed only one skater/pair per discipline. The team cannot have, say, four men and no one in the other three disciplines.

A team can leave one discipline out for whatever reason, although if a country that qualifies for the team competition does not qualify in each of the four "individual" disciplines (although the way the qualifying system works, this seems unlikely), the country can include a skater/pair in those disciplines just for the team competition.

The team competition seems to me to be joke. Can you imagine someone like Rachael Flatt winning a gold medal if she's on the US team? She will have as many Olympic Gold medals as someone like Yuna Kim.

The team competition seems to me to be joke. Can you imagine someone like Rachael Flatt winning a gold medal if she's on the US team? She will have as many Olympic Gold medals as someone like Yuna Kim.

There are already skaters not as good as Kwan (or Kim) who have OGMs, so I don't see what the big deal is.

Several sports have the equivalent of a team competition, which means weaker athletes can win medals they likely wouldn't win competing individually: track, swimming, artistic and rhythmic gymnastics. I have no problem with skaters getting the same opportunity. While it's nice to have a gala, I think it's actually easier to justify the inclusion of a team event in the Olympics than a gala held outside the competition.

Spain now has a junior pair, so they might have a shot at fielding a team, too.

There are already skaters not as good as Kwan (or Kim) who have OGMs, so I don't see what the big deal is.

Several sports have the equivalent of a team competition, which means weaker athletes can win medals they likely wouldn't win competing individually: track, swimming, artistic and rhythmic gymnastics. I have no problem with skaters getting the same opportunity. While it's nice to have a gala, I think it's actually easier to justify the inclusion of a team event in the Olympics than a gala held outside the competition.

Spain now has a junior pair, so they might have a shot at fielding a team, too.

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I agree, i have no idea my every post end up being about Kwan. As for Kim, she can always chose compete again, no body is stopping her from competing again. IOC is introducing few team sports, so this is not a surprise. They also bringing Luge team event, a new event more along the lines time trial relay. Bobsleigh and Alpine skiing also tried to have a team event but failed. If i was skater i would be glad that i have ore chance to win a medal.

Each Team must participate in at least 3 disciplines Ladies/Men/Pair Skating/Ice Dance) of the Figure Skating Team Event. NOCs/ISU Members who according to the procedure as per paragraph 2 above would have qualified for the Figure Skating Team Event but who are unable or unwilling to compose a Team with Skaters/Couples competing in at least 3 disciplines will not be allowed to compete in the Figure Skating Team Event.

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Is that the "Japan" rule? Not sure if they'd still want to enter a Team with only 3 entries. Would they be forced to?

The IOC Executive Board accepted the inclusion of the Figure Skating (Single & Pair Skating, Ice Dance) Team Event at the 2014 Olympic Winter Games (OWG) in Sochi based on the notion that only athletes that are already qualified for the individual events will participate in the team event. For exceptions please refer to point 3.2.1 below.

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NOCs/ISU Members who do not have qualified Skaters/Couples in an individual OWG competition/discipline (Single Lady, Single Man, Pair Skating, Ice Dance), may enter into the Figure Skating Team Event 1 Skater/Couple per competition/discipline plus one Stand-by Skater/Couple per discipline. The Stand-by Skaters/Couples will remain on stand-by and will not be accredited/allowed into the Olympic Village unless the initially entered Skater/Couple has been confirmed as withdrawn due to injury, illness or other serious reasons as accepted by the IOC/ISU.

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I'm confused. Does this mean that a country that qualified a Team according to the rules but only have one pair (for example) qualified for the Olympics would still be able to send the Team with an extra man, extra lady and extra dance team?

Well, then what would stop countries from having all men, then? Someone like Kevin Reynolds would still get a way higher score in his LP than, say, Virtue/Moir.

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Not only is it forbidden to enter more than 1 skater/team per discipline, but it's not the scores that matter anyway, it's the placements (1st = 10 points, 2nd = 9 points, 3rd = 8 points, etc. and then all points are added). So V/M would very likely fare much better than Reynolds.

I am not quite sure I understand it, if the team is chosen by scores from the previous competitions are they qualifying the skaters who scored, or just a spot for their country? IIRC they said it would be the same skaters as were in the individual event (which seems a shame, expecially if some of the top skaters don't actually want to do the team event.)

I am really confused actually - using GB as an example, if they qualified a team but didn't qualify spots for the individual events (last time we had a lady, pair and 2 in dance but no man) what would happen? Bringing in an extra man and his coaches would mean more rooms are needd in the village, etc.

I am really confused actually - using GB as an example, if they qualified a team but didn't qualify spots for the individual events (last time we had a lady, pair and 2 in dance but no man) what would happen? Bringing in an extra man and his coaches would mean more rooms are needd in the village, etc.

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It says they can only have one competitor per discipline, so I guess they would just compete three events and forfeit the spot in men.

Theoretically a country with 3 competitors could qualify above a country with 4 based on the rules posted upthread. Say that in the team event Japan wins ladies and men, places last in dance, and has no pair. That would be 21 points (10 each for the singles and 1 point for the dancers). Then say Czech Republic qualifies a team and places 9th in pairs, 9th in dance, 9th in ladies, and 4th in men. That would be 13 points so they would finish behind Japan.

It says they can only have one competitor per discipline, so I guess they would just compete three events and forfeit the spot in men.

Theoretically a country with 3 competitors could qualify above a country with 4 based on the rules posted upthread. Say that in the team event Japan wins ladies and men, places last in dance, and has no pair. That would be 21 points (10 each for the singles and 1 point for the dancers). Then say Czech Republic qualifies a team and places 9th in pairs, 9th in dance, 9th in ladies, and 4th in men. That would be 13 points so they would finish behind Japan.

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No, they are allowed to enter an additional team in the event they have not qualified but the team can compete only in the team event and not in the individual event.

NOCs/ISU Members who do not have qualified Skaters/Couples in an individual OWG
competition/discipline (Single Lady, Single Man, Pair Skating, Ice Dance), may enter into
the Figure Skating Team Event 1 Skater/Couple per competition/discipline plus one Stand-by
Skater/Couple per discipline. The Stand-by Skaters/Couples will remain on stand-by and will
not be accredited/allowed into the Olympic Village unless the initially entered Skater/Couple
has been confirmed as withdrawn due to injury, illness or other serious reasons as accepted
by the IOC/ISU.The Skaters/Couples entered and competing in the Figure Skating Team Event based on this
&#8220;incomplete Team&#8221; provision will receive a &#8220;P&#8221; accreditation allowing access to the training
venue, the competition venue, the right to enter the Olympic Village and access to the Athlete
Transportation System.
If a NOC/ISU Member has 2 or 3 entries in an individual OWG competition/discipline then
the NOC/ISU Member must declare the Skaters/Couples to compete in the Short
Program/Short Dance of the Team Event latest at 10.00 hrs (a.m.), local time on site of the
OWG, the day before the beginning of the first Short Program/Short Dance of the Figure
Skating Team Event. For the 5 Teams qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance of the Figure
Skating Team Event the NOC/ISU Member must declare the Skater/Couple competing for
the Free Skating/Free Dance immediately (latest about 10 minutes) after the conclusion of the
last Short Program/Short Dance of the Team Event in order to ensure that the Team
composition of all Teams are known before the beginning of the Free Skating/Free Dance.
QUALIFICATION SYSTEM FOR XXII OLYMPIC WINTER GAMES, SOCHI 2014
Original version: English ISU/FS/December 2011/ page 8/11
The Skaters/Couples competing in the Free Skating must be the same as those having
competed in the Short Program/Short Dance, however each Team has the option to replace up
to two (2) entries (two Single Skaters or one Single Skater (Lady or Man) plus one couple
(Pair Skating or Ice Dance) or both the Pair Skating and Ice Dance Couples) between the
Short Program/Short Dance and the Fee Skating/Free Dance provided such Skaters/Couple is
part of the accredited delegation on site of the OWG.

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Rules are very clear on this, the team is also allowed to bring an additional team, but they cannot be staying at the village.

So according to the idiotic system ISU has devised a team that wins Short program has a better chance winning the whole thing since number of teams in the Free skate section reduces to 5 teams as supposed to 10 in the short P/D section.

So Apart from the tie breaker thing coming into play, a skater can make a complete mess in the FD/ FS and still get 6 points by finishing bottom of the pile, say 60 points behind the leader in the section, the difference between the first and last is 4 points. This could still be enough for them to win the title. Whole thing looks like a Short Dance/ program competition. It is tilted towards the results of that section, if an athlete make a mess and finishes last the difference here is 9 points. So for the SP it is all about staking team in between you and your major competitor, and once FS starts some of these teams may disappear altogether.

ISU is inviting trouble with this format, especially since we get the score of these teams and anyone can total the whole segments score displayed and come up an aggregate score of all 8 sections of the team. Then again, when did weightage of both SP and LP become equal in terms of points. Even during the 6.0 era there was difference in weightage of these sectionals. So if a team wins, say ladies section in total points that does not count towards the total score. So final placement in ladies, Mens, Dance and pairs is of little importance.

I think either ISU should allow all the teams to compete in the free dance/ Free skate of the team championships or use cumulative scoring system, count all the sectional scores like did in Japan Open. So add all the SD and SP scores, then find the best 5 teams and then reduce the size of teams to 5 for the LP. Then add the total LP scores to the SP scores.

So- a country could have one of thier qualified pair teams skate the short, and another team skate the free? As long as they were identified after the short?

It doesn't make sense to have the team competition first. It would seenm to give unfair advantage/disadvantage to those participating in the team event.

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As long as this team is also qualified to the Olympics games by normal qualification mechanism. A team can make two substitution for the FS/FD, they can change both singles skaters, both couples (Ice dance and pair) or a couple and single's skater.

As for sec on point i think they are getting an additional chance of winning a medal, which is huge. Even though now skating fans are not taking team title with huge importance. However the medal won is still an Olympic medal. Which could make your life is most countries.

Just wait for some favorite, or favorites, to skate brilliantly in the team event but then blow it when it comes time for the solo OGM.

The whole team event will either be moved back or completely scrapped when, not if, that happens.

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Actually, the team event will provide skaters with an opportunity to compete on the Olympic ice surface, without the pressure of it being their individual event. These skaters could have the advantage, to be honest!

I wish that the skaters in this event could not compete in other divisions (IE; Patrick Chan would not enter the team event because he'd be in the singles event, Canada would send a different male skater to represent them in the team event). This would make it so that countries with deeper fields of skaters get rewarded more and hopefully make it so that countries like Japan spend more time developing dance and pairs skaters. I also feel that this would allow more skaters to become involved and become a part of the Olympic experience.

I wish that the skaters in this event could not compete in other divisions (IE; Patrick Chan would not enter the team event because he'd be in the singles event, Canada would send a different male skater to represent them in the team event).

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So, the 4th ranked Russian pair or the 4th ranked Japanese male would be in the team event? So, the 4th ranked Russian pair can win a gold medal, but not Kavaguti/Smirnov? Fantastic! What a fun event!

Actually, the team event will provide skaters with an opportunity to compete on the Olympic ice surface, without the pressure of it being their individual event. These skaters could have the advantage, to be honest!

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No pressure? Someone like Phaneuf or Czisny (assuming they make the team) would have a lot more pressure in the team event than the individual event.