DHodges wrote:This seems like a variation on an old theme: there was a Golden Age in the past where everything was perfect, but we've screwed it up and need to REPENT! to return to Eden

I really dont think its as foolish as you think it is.

Sure there are really cartoony, maigical and immature notions of the garden of eden story - but there is also a realistic interpretations that are profound.

European explorers were notorious for going on big expeditions looking for the garden of eden, only to stumble upon natives who were puzzlingly healthy, generous and non-exploitative of each other. White man would slowly take control of the natives and abruptly turn what was the closest thing he'd ever find to garden of eden into hell on earth.

And give the native gals STDs.

The explorers weren't looking for Eden. They were looking for gold, or anything else they could take back to where they came from and make them wealthy and powerful there.

The "Noble Savage" is a myth. "Return to Nature" is a pipe dream. Eden existed - there were actually two of them when the first was overrun by jealous neighboring warrior tribes. Eden was never meant to be eternal, but rather a beginning and a mentoring presence for mankind. We have always been destined to evolve, and our technology along with us. There will be as there have been been growing pains. But we are inexorably progressing toward an age of Light and Life where there is universal peace, one language, one race. Not in our lifetimes, however.

DHodges wrote:This seems like a variation on an old theme: there was a Golden Age in the past where everything was perfect, but we've screwed it up and need to REPENT! to return to Eden

I really dont think its as foolish as you think it is.

Sure there are really cartoony, maigical and immature notions of the garden of eden story - but there is also a realistic interpretations that are profound.

European explorers were notorious for going on big expeditions looking for the garden of eden, only to stumble upon natives who were puzzlingly healthy, generous and non-exploitative of each other. White man would slowly take control of the natives and abruptly turn what was the closest thing he'd ever find to garden of eden into hell on earth.

And give the native gals STDs.

The explorers weren't looking for Eden.

Well, this is not something we can be certain about one way or the other. Some explorers might have been looking for such a thing. But we can't know.

Eden existed - there were actually two of them when the first was overrun by jealous neighboring warrior tribes.

There were two Eden's? How do you figure?

Eden was never meant to be eternal, but rather a beginning and a mentoring presence for mankind.

So you actually believe there was an Eden, yet you eschew the view that indigenous people were more in harmony with nature and more peaceful to each other?

brokenhead wrote:We have always been destined to evolve, and our technology along with us. There will be as there have been been growing pains. But we are inexorably progressing toward an age of Light and Life where there is universal peace, one language, one race. Not in our lifetimes, however.

In the context of "environmental crisis" and technology I would like to give an example.

A person is being stabbed repeatedly at regular intervals - every hour.

Some people are trying to save the victim.

The sane way to save is - you first stop the attack – you prevent the attack.

What these insane people do - they allow the attack to be continued. They don’t stop it -- they don’t prevent it.

Instead, what they do - They say we are going to save the victim by using technology - the best technology - the best medical care.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.

They give the victim the best technology - the best medical care.

In the meantime the stabbing continues – every hour – even while the best medical care is being given.

One can imagine the fate of the victim.

Ecosystems are getting destroyed due to production of consumer goods.

Every consumer good is made by killing animals, trees, air, water and land - directly or indirectly. [ more killing of nature takes place when consumer goods are used and discarded]

Industrial society is destroying necessary things - animals, trees, air, water and land for making unnecessary things - consumer goods.

The sane way of saving ecosystems is - you stop production of consumer goods - you reduce production of consumer goods to the minimum level.

But the insane Industrial Society continues producing consumer goods [ in fact production is being increased every day]

The insane response of Industrial Society is - We will save the environment with technology - the best technology.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.

Bring this technology - Bring that technology.

In the meantime production of consumer goods continues - 3 billion people living in cities are continuously engaged in - making , buying and selling of consumer goods - killing the ecosystems moment by moment.

One can imagine the fate of environment.

Height of Insanity.......Height of Abnormality.

Destroy Industrial Society.....before it is too late.Destroy consumerism..... before it is too late.

For several decades environmentalists have been warning modern society that ecosystems are getting destroyed - that consumerist lifestyle is not sustainable.

But modern society which was busy chasing progress, growth and development did not listen. It refused to believe there was any environmental crisis or problem. It said science and technology will always find a solution - if earth gets destroyed we will move on to another planet.

Impossible dreams were sold to people in the name of science and technology.

Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.

One space shuttle exploded during take off - another exploded on the return journey.

So far man has not been able to go beyond the moon. There is no other life sustaining ecosystem/ planet within the solar system. Outside the solar system planets and galaxies are millions of light years away - billions of light years away.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted. Industry kills Water.

Industries/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel - and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.

We have limited resources/ ecosystems on earth which is just 40,000 km in circumference.

If we destroy ecosystems for fewer things [food, clothing, shelter] the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for more things [consumer goods] the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

The fewer things we make the more sustainable we are.

This is common sense - plain common sense - which the so called smart, intelligent, advanced, civilized and developed Industrial Society does not possess.

We are alive because of ecosystems - we owe our very existence to ecosystems.

Industrial Society has destroyed most ecosystems within a span of 250 years after Industrial Revolution.

sushil_yadav wrote:The collapse has already happened for millions of other species. Most of them have been decimated.

Very soon it will be the turn of man to go.

Species have come and went. Ecosystems always have been destroyed and arisen again in different forms. It has going on for a while with or without industrialization or even human beings around. Some would suggest: if we are doomed anyway, isn't the mass-industrialization stage a remote chance to stumble on something that can make us less dependent on various natural fluctuations and disasters? And if not, how does our assumed self-destruction differ from the cycle of the ice-ages, meteor impacts, alien invasions and all else that could wipe us all out in a cosmic blink, no matter what kind of society we have dreamed up. Not to mention wars and diseases that tend to be just as lethal pre-industral as post-industrial, percentage wise.

That said, there might be a natural stage after mass-industrialization, a kind of crystallization, a re-formation of methods and minds that could occur. Or else just acceptance that this was it, the flowering. And that producing fewer things, without that insane consumption as driving force will just be a symptom of old age?

The question is : did you love the ride? Would you like to go again? Or would you rather be devoured by spite, anger and disappointment, barely holding your contempt and nausea for the pits of mankind? God knows how hard this question is.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote: how does our assumed self-destruction differ from the cycle of the ice-ages, meteor impacts, alien invasions and all else that could wipe us all out in a cosmic blink,

We have little control over natural disasters. The present environmental crisis is man-made. Human overactivity has destroyed the ecosystems - which could have lasted much longer if we had reduced our overactivity [overconsumerism].

If we destroy ecosystems for fewer things [food, clothing, shelter] the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for more things [consumer goods] the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

The fewer things we make the more sustainable we are.

This crazy society did not anticipate "Financial Collapse" until it actually happened.

This crazy society is not going to anticipate "Ecosystem Collapse" until it actually happens.

The way this insane, abnormal and criminal society is running is like :

A car running in a closed garage.

Adding extra floors to a building by removing bricks from the lower floors.

The stress of impending disaster will turn out to be the stimulus that causes man to genetically and physiologically re-engineer himself. In the grand scheme of cosmological ages, Nature cares not a whit for our predicament since, it would seem, She is the author of it. This genetic re-engineering must make man a much smaller creature with all the brain-power but 1/1000 of the body mass. I envision an internal structure the size of a walnut with a larger super-hard casing---like a coconut. Life will become a completely internal affair, a virtual affair, and somehow, 'inscribed' on the inside of the 'shell', or part of the casing that surrounds the 'walnut', there will be recorded the nearly infinite memories of all human creations and all human thought. The coconut-creature can float about on the seas, absorbing nutrients from the water, or simply sit there on the ground anywhere, and it won't really matter. Man will be completely self-absorbed and will be able to sift endlessly through the total human memory---from the deepest philosophy to the most erotic Sasha Gray vids. He will be in complete control of his brain chemistry and so will produce the juices that 'is the stuff that happiness is made of'. True, this is only a working model and needs improvement. Somehow, this creature must have a way to interface with the environment, and I suggest some kind of technology that can be controlled strictly through mental means, which is sort of the way it is anyway. I suppose man, before his transformation into a hard'-shelled coconut with an internal, walnut-sized brain, will have to construct a technological system that can replicate and maintain itself while he, internalized coconut, muses eternally on his internal content. So, in this case, the technological platform---very simple and non-invasive (and eternal)---will provide the nutrients for the coconut-man, but he will need so little that millions of us can be maintained without affecting ecosystem. Sadly---or happily---depending on your stance on the matter, men and women will exist no more. In that sense we will be hermaphrodites. Male and female will be contained in one, and this little being will enjoy an eternity of blissful union of the male and female 'energies' within himself.

Now, to make matters more interesting and to add cosmic drama, which the also eternal structure of creation demands, hard-shelled, brilliant coconut-encased man must be sent out into the universe. Shot out like dandelion putting out seed. Billions of coconut men will be broadcast through the whole universe, or perhaps they will be sent out on spacecraft which when they near a suitable planet, will explode like cluster-bombs, and rain down intelligent beings into the new environment. It only takes one, people! So, that creature lands with all this intelligence and memory encased within itself, and somehow (haven't worked out the details) he can interact with biological entities in the new environment, and be the causal factor for new evolutionary adventures. This process of biological, evolutionary and consciousness adventure, the evolution of biological entities that, at the end of their evolution shrink themselves, encase themselves, and broadcast themselves, has all the potential for going on forever. Think of this next time you listen to your ipod. You would have thought it was a pleasure device, a diversion, but in fact it is a model of our future! We shall soon convert ourselves into a hard-shelled structure whose memory power will be 500 trillion times that of the largest memory device on the planet today, approximately the size of a damned walnut!

Don't worry, people! Don't fret Sushil! In the cosmic drama all apparent suffering and all apparent struggle is taking place in a mere wink of a cosmic eye. We had to go through all that to get to this awesome step that stands before us. How appropriate then that we are at the 40 year milestone of the lunar landing, and those famous, prophetic words: 'One small step for man, but a giant leap for mankind'.

In the future, man will be able to instantaneously publish giant monolithic blocks of text without saying much of anything. Whoa, the future is now. How trippy.

Bust seriously, folks, the question is, do the pressures of a disintegrating civilization awaken humans, or are humans like the proverbial frog in the pot of water, oblivious to progressive heating until too late? Many claim we are waking up now. The evidence seems to point otherwise.

Carl G wrote: Many claim we are waking up now. The evidence seems to point otherwise.

It's all part and parcel of the death throes of the world ego. It's not pretty, my friend.

So you're saying there is a general awakening underway (in the wake of the death of the "world ego")?

The charting of human developmental phases show us how such processes play out.

It's our natural human evolution. There are varying levels of waking up going on at all times.

And some of the larger, more powerful "groups" of individuals in varying stages of development are moving towards the cusp between lliving from ego, and living from Spirit. As anyone who has personally experienced this can attest to, it gets a lot worse before it gets better. We must overcome duality, and the idea of good/bad, never knowing if "bad" might ultimately win out. It's par for the course...

Keep in mind, though, that this is a linear, time-based perspective, and outside the acceptance of Infinite Being in the moment.

Carl G wrote:So you're saying there is a general awakening underway (in the wake of the death of the "world ego")?

The charting of human developmental phases show us how such processes play out.

I would like to see such charting.

It's our natural human evolution. There are varying levels of waking up going on at all times.

I'm not sure I believe in the concept of natural human evolution. Especially in a spiritual sense. If anything, there have been historical risings and fallings, making the process more cyclical than evolutionary.

And some of the larger, more powerful "groups" of individuals in varying stages of development are moving towards the cusp between lliving from ego, and living from Spirit.

To what "groups" do you refer? Can you give an example or two?

As anyone who has personally experienced this, it gets a lot worse before it gets better.

Granted, but we are not talking about individuals, per se. The subject is humanity as a whole.

syzygy wrote:It's our natural human evolution. There are varying levels of waking up going on at all times.

I'm not sure I believe in the concept of natural human evolution. Especially in a spiritual sense. If anything, there have been historical risings and fallings, making the process more cyclical than evolutionary.

Carl G wrote:

syzygy wrote:And some of the larger, more powerful "groups" of individuals in varying stages of development are moving towards the cusp between lliving from ego, and living from Spirit.

To what "groups" do you refer? Can you give an example or two?

Carl G wrote:

syzygy wrote:As anyone who has personally experienced this, it gets a lot worse before it gets better.

Granted, but we are not talking about individuals, per se. The subject is humanity as a whole.

Humanity is comprised of individuals.

As within, so without. When one understands the process experientially, one can observe such dynamics play out around one's self.

Besides the fact that the percentages of all categories add up to 111.2% of all adults, I don't find the premise particularly convincing or useful. Nor am I impressed with Hawken's model, by the way, or with Hawken himself.

Perhaps you would find another perspective interesting, along similar lines but with a different outcome.

syzygy wrote:Humanity is comprised of individuals. As within, so without. When one understands the process experientially, one can observe such dynamics play out around one's self.

This is a little too cryptic for me. For the record I have been through plenty but I'm still not sure of what you are speaking. Maybe I'm just not evolved enough. Maybe a couple more lifetimes are needed.

I thought we were talking about whether or not humanity is evolving. I said that it appears it is not, spiritually, anyway. Mind you, I'd love to think it is, however, I see little evidence of it.

In the future, man will be able to instantaneously publish giant monolithic blocks of text without saying much of anything. Whoa, the future is now.

I think it goes over your head, Carl, but there is such a thing as multiplicity of purpose in writing and in communication. Also, humor and irony have a unique function, as does fantasy or fiction (for example, science-fiction). And, one can communicate 'truthful things' through pure, invented fiction, and as well through humor and irony. You may or not be aware that Terrence McKenna (among numerous others but I am a little familiar with Terrence McKenna's writing, kind of far out) believes (believed since he's dead) that humanity IS arriving at that moment in evolution when it WILL re-engineer itself. True, it is doubtful 'it' will re-engineer itself into a walnut-sized brain enclosed in a coconut-like shell, but it really does seen both possible and likely that some modification will occur, and it may be pretty radical.

(It was Terrence McKenna's opinion that human consciousness and consciousness throughout the gallaxy was jump-started by the psilosybe mushroom spore. He sees this 'being' as an Extraterrestrial, a visitor from a long way off. The spore is so light and yet so resistant that it could make its way to the upper atmosphere and then, through some accident, get released from the Earth's gravitation and 'wander' in space. Then, after a long voyage, find its way to another terrestrial home. True, the idea is far-fetched, but it does conform to a model that already exists: the mushroom spore can and does travel all the world over as it is. The mushroom and other hallucinogens have been used by many different cultures and could have been the causal factor for certain new vistas in human awareness. It leads of course to many questions. Can you see now how the 'monolithic block' I wrote reflects some of those ideas, asshole?. I'm certainly not claiming perfection but I have my own way of working with ideas).

About humor. Will you permit me to say that I think your attempts at 'humor' completely fail? Take for example your Bozo thread. It is not at all humor because it is so heavy-handed, it actually communicates a kind of under-the-surface 'violence', a mean-spiritedness. It is like the 'violence' of your point is placed before any lightness of humor. No part of it is really to be laughed at, it is a blunt and didactic display. There is no grace in it.

Do you think, Carl, you are an emulatable writer on this forum? What sort of a view do you have of yourself? What is the purpose, really, of your hounding of people whose posts you don't like, a common tendency of yours? It is a question I have had for some time, and one worthy of consideration. You have often said that you have a 'purpose', and your purpose and chosen is to show people things you want them to see, and I admit that from time to time you succeed in this. But I only suggest to you that it is almost always with this 'heavy hand', a kind of mean-spiritedness. Why is your writing inflected with such a 'vibe'? What I get from 95% of what you write is the residue of bad feeling, anger, frustration and other unpleasant residues.

In addition to that, you rarely if ever originate ideas or even topics. (The wretched Bozo topic notwithstanding). I never feel I receive ideas from you. Mostly what I get from your writing is bitterness and strange anger.

So listen, you frustrated jerk-off. Will you do me a wee favor? If you don't like my posts, pass them by. Do not pay attention to them. I am not at all interested in your commentary about them that reflect and express your fucked-up psychology. It is not as though I am influenced by what you write. What you write, and the way you communicate it, for me represents failure.

You get those feelings about me from yourself. You project them. Tomas does the same thing. You attribute all sorts of things to me and my writing that you could only have gotten from your own inner depths. I am an artist like yourself, but in fact, much less heavy. Look at your hair trigger. One comment is what I have made about your writing since your took on the donkey persona, one comment and you come down on me like a load of bricks.

Carl G wrote:Besides the fact that the percentages of all categories add up to 111.2% of all adults, I don't find the premise particularly convincing or useful. Nor am I impressed with Hawken's model, by the way, or with Hawken himself.

Perhaps you would find another perspective interesting, along similar lines but with a different outcome.

Thanks for sharing. I am actually very aware of this other perspective. Note that the author is unaware of the 'levels' just prior to and knowing God. And that the author is well aware of the 'us vs them' levels. Like in the link The Amazing Spiral, once one removes veils at the higher levels, one sees the unity and integration of what seemed fragmented when at 'lower levels' when one saw one's self as being 'right' and the other guy as being 'wrong'. These models fit easily together.

In all of the self-vs-other levels, one cannot conceive of the higher harmonious levels, which are potential that exists all around every one of us in each moment, to tap into at any time. Those entranced by the veils will continue to evolve unconsciously, in the sense that as life forces them through learning experiences, one sees it all as random and difficult, since one is not yet conscious of the connectors spiritually, or 'behind the scenes'. Also, since one is unconscious of their own processes, they must attribute their learning experiences to hardship 'out there' brought on by difficulties inherent to the world, rather than stemming from within one's self.

Once one removes the veils at the 'higher' levels, one re-cognizes the fear and the separation as an illusion that drives one at the 'lower' levels. Maslow talked about our more base or fundamental levels of functioning, and how we are motivated away from things--ie: to move away from starvation, pain, fear etc. Whereas at higher levels, we are motivated towards something. ie: peace, joy, satisfaction, awakening.

As for secret societies controlling people through arcane knowledge, this very arcane knowledge is out there and available for all of us, should we seek it. Knowledge of the natural universal laws is everywhere, should any one of us choose to tap into it. The thing is, people are so willful, and caught up in their scripts and illusions. They want to live the experiences they do.

Although the maps show differences, which reflect the map-maker, as Spiral dynamics of my link says, the basic themes and similarities point to basic themes recognized in human development.

In the future, man will be able to instantaneously publish giant monolithic blocks of text without saying much of anything. Whoa, the future is now.

I think it goes over your head, Carl, but there is such a thing as multiplicity of purpose in writing and in communication. Also, humor and irony have a unique function, as does fantasy or fiction (for example, science-fiction). And, one can communicate 'truthful things' through pure, invented fiction, and as well through humor and irony. You may or not be aware that Terrence McKenna (among numerous others but I am a little familiar with Terrence McKenna's writing, kind of far out) believes (believed since he's dead) that humanity IS arriving at that moment in evolution when it WILL re-engineer itself. True, it is doubtful 'it' will re-engineer itself into a walnut-sized brain enclosed in a coconut-like shell, but it really does seen both possible and likely that some modification will occur, and it may be pretty radical.

(It was Terrence McKenna's opinion that human consciousness and consciousness throughout the gallaxy was jump-started by the psilosybe mushroom spore. He sees this 'being' as an Extraterrestrial, a visitor from a long way off. The spore is so light and yet so resistant that it could make its way to the upper atmosphere and then, through some accident, get released from the Earth's gravitation and 'wander' in space. Then, after a long voyage, find its way to another terrestrial home. True, the idea is far-fetched, but it does conform to a model that already exists: the mushroom spore can and does travel all the world over as it is. The mushroom and other hallucinogens have been used by many different cultures and could have been the causal factor for certain new vistas in human awareness. It leads of course to many questions. Can you see now how the 'monolithic block' I wrote reflects some of those ideas, asshole?. I'm certainly not claiming perfection but I have my own way of working with ideas).

About humor. Will you permit me to say that I think your attempts at 'humor' completely fail? Take for example your Bozo thread. It is not at all humor because it is so heavy-handed, it actually communicates a kind of under-the-surface 'violence', a mean-spiritedness. It is like the 'violence' of your point is placed before any lightness of humor. No part of it is really to be laughed at, it is a blunt and didactic display. There is no grace in it.

Do you think, Carl, you are an emulatable writer on this forum? What sort of a view do you have of yourself? What is the purpose, really, of your hounding of people whose posts you don't like, a common tendency of yours? It is a question I have had for some time, and one worthy of consideration. You have often said that you have a 'purpose', and your purpose and chosen is to show people things you want them to see, and I admit that from time to time you succeed in this. But I only suggest to you that it is almost always with this 'heavy hand', a kind of mean-spiritedness. Why is your writing inflected with such a 'vibe'? What I get from 95% of what you write is the residue of bad feeling, anger, frustration and other unpleasant residues.

In addition to that, you rarely if ever originate ideas or even topics. (The wretched Bozo topic notwithstanding). I never feel I receive ideas from you. Mostly what I get from your writing is bitterness and strange anger.

So listen, you frustrated jerk-off. Will you do me a wee favor? If you don't like my posts, pass them by. Do not pay attention to them. I am not at all interested in your commentary about them that reflect and express your fucked-up psychology. It is not as though I am influenced by what you write. What you write, and the way you communicate it, for me represents failure.

Do you understand where I am coming from?

I found your 'monolithic block of text' to be quite funny and ironic. Mostly because it seemed intuitively dead on. The walnut/coconut deal and life being an internal affair is pretty true on some level. as we evolve, we find it all IS quite an internal thing...

did you ever see that 50's horror movie, where a woman was hit by a car, and her husband--a mad scientist of sorts--saved her still-living head/brain rigged up in the basement? It was so hysterical when the husband, upon seeking a new body for her, began frequenting the local strip clubs.....

I find it humbling to see the underlying workings of evolution beyond what is commonly appreciated.

For example, personality typing shows that we have visionary, idealist types, who have a natural aptitude which takes them into the arts realms. Since these individuals are naturally focused on evolving our humanitarian systems, they are the authors of our fiction, of our big screen movies, TV shows, etc. They write the lyrics to what become the universally and commercially appealing songs, played over and over on the radio. They are our motivational and self-help authors and speakers.

The masses may be half asleep, and yet they continually open themselves up to such forces, and are perpetually bombarded with such idealist, humanitarian views, through such media.

I have a friend, who is an associate conductor for a major world renowned musical--he conducts/plays on Broadway in NYC. I met him due to the fact that he used to be in two different famous Canadian bands years ago. He is at a very high developmental stage, as per the Spiral Dynamics.

On Facebook, he has about 700 friends. Many are major musicians from across North America. He constantly makes enlightening commentary--on facebook, no less--influencing many people, who understand little what he's doing. And he influences his fellow creators, who also have a natural aptitude towards such awareness, and who are just at lower levels of perception.

many artists/creators are at fairly high levels of perception, but not near enlightened, so to see my friend in action, sharing his wisdom each and every day, inspiring fellow creators to amazing levels, which will go on and affect millions of others, is humbling to see. Even more humbling, is how this man treats his "fans" the same way--which is how I met him. He treats all people the same. He invited me to meet him in NYC, got me a ticket to see his show, hung out with me on a few occasions while I was there, including spending hours a day talking to me on the phone. Since I've been home, we've spent many more hours on the phone talking about such dynamics, and how, like it's always been, it really only takes a few dedicated people to change with world at any given time.

The Amazing Spiral is rather nifty, no big disagreement here about most of its essentials although I see it through a bit more cynical yet evenhanded, compassionate eye.

With this spiral the abstraction level appears to increase with every level: what if this "second-tier consciousness" is nothing but simulacrum? Inherently powerless, being it merely descriptive, belonging to the end of a development age but not announcing any new one at all?

I can only agree with Carl: there's not much evidence about development of the human species and its thinking. An increase in models, theories, rhetoric, yes, but actual progress in terms of fundamental change in our violence, conspiracy, lying, pollution?

In my view the amazing spiral ends in some endless provisional self-referential, iterative description of the whole, like old retired folks recounting their life story over and over again. Actual change seems illusive. Actually every advancement named by proponents of "change in consciousness" I could counter by demonstrating how it contains nothing new under the sun, contains huge amounts of self-referential hot air and even would melt if it would be put in the scrutiny of actual sunlight for too long.

I can only agree with Carl: there's not much evidence about development of the human species and its thinking. An increase in models, theories, rhetoric, yes, but actual progress in terms of fundamental change in our violence, conspiracy, lying, pollution?

Who knows if it is 'true' or not---we know that it is very hard, outside of the material sciences, to posit 'truth'---but some schools of Eastern Mysticism (Yogananda and others) say that when a culture gets to the point that it begins to unravel the material facts of existence (electricity, chemistry, genetics, the facts of evolutionary biology, etc.), that culture stands right on the threshold of a greater 'awakening' on all levels. We are only about 300 maybe 400 years into the scientific revolution and this revolution in the way knowledge is handled and applied, so it is not unlikely that 'we' are still in very early stages. We have a great deal of intelligence and craft, but still are dragging around our bodies (so to speak): our physiological heritage, our animal-ape biology, so many phsiological and behaviorial patterns that are outmoded.

There seems to be 2 distinct trends, and I wonder sometimes if they will function together or apart, in harmony or at odds: a technological totalitarianism and an enlightened utopia. These 2 mythologies exist at the same time.

(Corrected typo).

Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Talking Ass wrote:... some schools of Eastern Mysticism (Yogananda and others) say that when a culture gets to the point that it begins to unravel the material facts of existence (electricity, chemistry, genetics, the facts of evolutionary biology, etc.), that culture stands right on the threshold of a greater 'awakening' on all levels.

Do you think this might be based on knowledge of ancient great cultures that went before us? In that case the question rises: what happened with them in terms of physical presence, the earth connection, their 'complete' being as you'd say? Did they just abandon accomplishment, or retired to the active side of infinity? Are they still around us, like whispers in the wind?

Awakening to what? The realization that everything that begins will have an ending?