Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1A.
[Mr Irving]
German SZ, things like that. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have read it now, have you? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I read it and I disapprove of the translation, but we will 4reach that moment. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We will come to that because that is over the page, but -- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a tendentious translation. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: But nothing wrong with the German? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
-- nothing wrong with German -- 9MR RAMPTON: I will come back, because the translation will be 10important many times during in the course of the case. 11Dr Longerich translates it at the top page 62. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
-- he is, of course, German translating into English. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I know he is, but it may be, I know not, you can ask him 14when he comes to court. He had some help. His English is 15pretty good, but not perfect: "As concerns the Jewish 16question the Fuhrer is determined to make a clean sweep"; 17what I suggest we do, Mr Irving, is to take out page 61 18and fortunately the German text is on a separate page. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Right. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As we go through the English you can tell me in answer to 21my questions where you think Dr Longerich has gone wrong 22in his translation. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"As concerns the Jewish question the Fuhrer is determined 25to make a clean sweep" (German spoken)? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Tabula rasa they say in Latin.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Maybe, but this is fortunately in these courts we do not 2speak much Latin any more. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but it is closer actually, the Latin than 4the English. 5MR RAMPTON: Probably. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the point are you making. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8MR RAMPTON: Yes, a tabular rasa is a blank surface. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
So I am more accurate than yourself -- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no distinction in terms of the sense 11of it, is there. 12MR RAMPTON: I do not know. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
-- does the word tabula rasa exist in English? 14MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is frequently used by people who do not 15know what it means, as so much Latin is. But if you wish 16tabula rasa is rather a perhaps stronger word than "clean 17sweep". 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Cleansing. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you dispute clean sweep gives sense? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Not at all, perfectly good line. 21MR RAMPTON: "He had prophesied to the Jews that if they once 22again brought about a world war they would experience 23their own extermination." The words in German are (German 24spoken); what do those words mean? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, of course, to translate "vernichtung" as 26extermination is highly tendentious.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
If you look in your yellow dictionary, see what 3"vernichtung" says. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I think I will. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I have no idea. I am prepared to say meaning No. one is 6extermination. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not have to say that, Mr Irving. The root of the 8word is "making to nothing" annihilating, is it not? Let 9us see what that says. I have very little knowledge of 10German, but it seems to me obvious, but it means, 11according to Langscheidt, annihilate, destroy, 12exterminate, eradicate-shatter. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the third possible meaning and he has chosen the 14third meaning rather than the first. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Did you see a distinction -- 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes -- 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In this context -- weight between annihilate and 18exterminate? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
-- I am not going to put the words on the gold balance 20because this is not Hitler speaking, this is Goebbels 21reporting, am I correct? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. 23MR RAMPTON: Apparently -- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
On the following day. 25MR RAMPTON: Unless it come from Goebbels diary? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
-- this is Goebbels diary. This is a third person report

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1by Goebbels of what Hitler said the previous day. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is reporting what he recalls him having 3said. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, so it is rather meaningless to attach too much 5importance to the actual words contained in the diary. 6MR RAMPTON: On the contrary, Mr Irving, often enough in the 7course of your books you attach a kind of uncritical 8credulity to the utterances of Dr Goebbels. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Notwithstanding he is merely reporting what somebody else 11has said. Furthermore why should -- Dr Goebbels in 12December 1941 misreport what his leader had said? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Because if you had read my book with the assiduity that 14I am sure you have you will remember that Dr Goebbels is 15an evil little genius who is capable of lying in the most 16malicious and perverse verse way and he will translate 17every single statement through his own distorted brain. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: In his own diaries? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20MR RAMPTON: Why? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
This is the way people do things. They have a tendency to 22write down things they wished they had heard. If he 23wished to heard Hitler talking about the extermination of 24the Jews, then he would prefer to use that word when for 25all we know Hitler may have used a different one. I have 26no objection at all, Mr Rampton, when you bring to me the

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1verbatim transcripts of which there are any number of 2Hitler actually said when he says things that are very 3similar. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We do not have -- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
We should not rely on this kind of second order evidence 6on matter of this importance. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
-- you do it repeatedly when it suits your book, 8Mr Irving. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
You are accusing me of double standards. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, I am most roundly. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I disagree. I am very careful with the criteria I apply. 12In a matter like this of such importance I look at the 13actual translations with greatest detail and if they are, 14I mean in law too you have to give somebody the benefit of 15the doubt when they are ambiguities. You certainly do not 16go for the third meaning of the word rather than first 17meaning. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You see, you continually assume that I am using one 19document, one utterance, to prove the guilt of Adolf 20Hitler. In fact I am trying to do neither, Mr Irving. 21What I am trying to do is to suggest to you that the 22convergence of the evidence of which this is just one 23small example. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that on the balance of probabilities, as though it were 26a civil case at court, the reasonable historian would say: