A girl has asked about her estranged father. They haven't spoken for a long time, but she is worried that he is ill, and may even die. She wants to know what's the matter with him, specifically if he's going to die so that she can take steps to become reconciled with him if he is.
"What's the matter with my father, will he die"? 10th. September 2004, 5:34 pm, Worcester UK. 24 Capricorn rising.

She's Saturn, her father is Venus, ruler of the 4th house. Venus is a cold, moist planet in a hot dry sign, Leo, so he's clearly not well; the daughter's concerns are confirmed. Sun as ruler of Leo signifies the illness. Ruler of the father's eighth house is Jupiter, but the absence of an applying aspect between Venus and Jupiter suggests he wont die. There is a separating sextile between Venus and Jupiter, perhaps this suggests the danger is past? However I was worried about the possibility of translation of light by the Moon from Venus to Jupiter... any comments?

Lilly says that if the significators do not presage death, then he may live so many years as there are degrees between the Lord of the Ascendant and the Lord of the eighth. Here there are 52-53 degrees between Venus and Jupiter: as the father is already in his fifties, this seems absurd. Have I missed something here...?!
Thanks for your input!
H.

When I looked at this chart, I interpreted the separating aspect between Venus, (the father) and Jupiter (Lord to mean the danger of death was past. However, I noticed that the Moon was separating from a sextile aspect to Jupiter and then applying to conjunct Venus, which I interpreted as the Moon translating light from Jupiter to Venus, thus bringing about death. I didn't understand the contradiction, which is why I posted the chart here, but no-one seemed able or willing to shed any light on it!
I'm happy to say the father is still alive, but I still don't understand this chart!
best wishes,
H.

For what it's worth, here is my tuppence worth - just a few points that I was taught (which does not of course say it's 'correct' any more or less than how anyone else was taught).

Firstly, sometimes you do not turn the houses. If something is 'too big' to belong to a person then it just gets left. Whilst there is no hard and fast rule, generally, some say they would not turn the 8th house, so that the radical 8th house, ruled by Mercury, shows death in general.

Also, what is afflicting the querent? Saturn, in detriment, exactly opposing the ascendant. This is the querent's ruler, so there is a strong indication that the querent is engaging in a little mental self-harm here (possibly justified under the circumstances).

The other thing I would like to say is that I wouldn't take the Moon as being in a position to translate light anywhere because she has not separated from any other planet, whilst in the sign she is currently in.

Having said all this, there seems to be mixed messages here, because the ruler of death is so strong in this chart. The 6th from the 4th showing the father's illness is about to enter into the 8th house.

I wonder if the Moon about to aspect Venus, just shows the querent approaching him. By antiscion the Moon is close to being on the 4th cusp, so there may be an unvoiced strong desire for reconcilliation.

The Sun about to conjoin with Mars and the Jupiter about to trine the 4th cusp may be relevant - I would see the Jupiter as fairly malefic here as it is in a bad way, being in detriment, in the 8th house and reasonably close to Mars.

Anyone any comments on the latter two points - especially the Sun to Mars?_________________Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk

thanks for your "tuppence worth!" Much more valuable than that I'd say, at least a few "boabies" worth!
Seems I've not understood translation of light correctly... so in this chart the Moon isn't translating light from Jupiter to Venus because it's left the sign it was in while sextiling Jupiter and is now applying to conjunct Venus in a different sign? Is that correct?
H.

Yes, I'm sure that's the way with the ToL - although a concensus might be in order here!

It can be reeeeeaaalllly difficult to get your head round Translation and Collection but if you get the hang of the PURPOSE of them then it can sink in okay.

So this is for anyone who's interested and baffled:

You are basically trying to make an aspect form that otherwise couldn't (e.g. planets are in the 'wrong' signs (not beholding), or the planets have separated), or with Translation, the aspect may or may not be perfecting of its own according but the Translating planet is simply faster moving than the applying planet(s) and is speeding the matter up._________________Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk

Venus is a cold, moist planet in a hot dry sign, Leo, so he's clearly not well; the daughter's concerns are confirmed. Sun as ruler of Leo signifies the illness

Well, I believe this only means the planet is weak in dignities... I wouldnt consider it so fast as a sign of disease ! For example, he is in the 7th, so he has accidental dignitiy...

Quote:

Firstly, sometimes you do not turn the houses. If something is 'too big' to belong to a person then it just gets left

I couldnt agree more... I believe we are all addicted in turning charts, which is in my opinion is 1 - a secondary tool for getting more information about what you have already conclude, or 2 - a way of choosing a significator which is not very clear.... for example a question about my brotherīs wife, my first AND second son.

Lilly says some place that you have to look, for an absent person ( the question "is he death ?") both the 8th and the turned 8th for aspects between the lords of the houses... that really worries me, because my impression is that, even if I ask this question for an healthy person, the answer will alway be yes ! Let me explain...

The father in your question is L4 (lord of 4th), if he makes aspect with the L8 (mercury) he is going to die. With L11 (Jupiter = 8th from 4th) death. And how about L7 (moon = 4th from 4th) meaning ending ? Death for sure ! And of course an aspect with the L12(Saturn) or Mars (6th from 4th) is always baaaaad.... How many planet have I counted already ? Almost all of them...Thatīs why I think "astrologers discretion is advised".

I would look mainly for mercury, who is conjunct Regulus (victory but also sudden death) and Vertex (fate). I would also notice that cusp of 4th in Regiomontanus is very close Caput Algol and Venus is antiscia Algol. MC is conjuct Arabic Part of Surgery and Accident. Part of Fortune is conjunct both Antares and the "part of bondage".

Quote:

there seems to be mixed messages here, because the ruler of death is so strong in this chart.(...)I wonder if the Moon about to aspect Venus, just shows the querent approaching him. By antiscion the Moon is close to being on the 4th cusp, so there may be an unvoiced strong desire for reconcilliation.

I agree and I have an hypothesis... if what harlequim told is accurate, this woman is kinda of hoping that if his father is sick, than she will be able to reconect with him and overcome her own feelings... do you think that is a possibility ? That would explain why "death" is yelling so loud in this chart, but none of the main significators look really in danger (and of course, could explain why the father hasn`t died yet... her real question was if she was going to reconciliate with her father)

One possible indication of that is in the Considerations before Judgment...
Saturn is in the 7th house, in exile, and Saturn is Lord of AC. The Ruler of 7th aspects a malefic and 7th house cusp aspects a malefic, and according to Gadbury these elements can induce astrologer to error. Dont know what to tell more than this.
Hope everything gets ok
Yuzuru

I was thinking about this a few days after the original discussion and then completely forgot all about it, so forgive me for the delay!

I was just sitting doing something completely different when it flashed into my head with such clarity and inspiration. The Moon's next aspect was to the ruler of the father's ascendant - the ascendant shows the person, the body, THE LIFE of the person, so hey, how much more do we want from our cosmos? He's going to live!!

A few comments: the classical definition of the translation of light requires that the significator from which the faster planet separates must receive the translating planet in one of its essential dignities. (source: Anthony Louis) The modern authors do not require this, though.
I think this might be the explanation. The Moon is not received by Jupiter in any of its essential dignities.
I'm not sure if the Moon changing signs in order to translate the light could interfere with the translation. I've seen on Maurice McCann's site that he allows over the border translations (see http://www.tara-astrology.com/index.php?id=214). In the same time, there is no reception in Maurice McCann's example either, so he doesn't care about that.
I'm trying to explain why this translation didn't work. This (the classical definition) is the best explanation I can come up with.

Other comments: Venus' antiscion is indeed conjunct with Algol, but as Venus is moving, the antiscion-Algol conjunction is separating, which is good.

The Almuten of the 4th house is the Moon, who holds both the exaltation and the triplicity of the IC's degree. So the Moon co-signifies the father. And the Moon is separating from an aspect with Jupiter the turned 8th house ruler.
Also, as the Moon (father) separates from Jupiter and applies to Venus, the two benefics, this is a "positive beseigement" as named by Anthony Louis. This too, might have contributed to the father's condition not worsening.

One question: I know that traditionally the 4th house represents the father, yet the modern astrologers assign the 4th house to the same sex parent. In this case, as the querent is a woman, the moderns would assign the 10th to the father. What do you say?

One question: I know that traditionally the 4th house represents the father, yet the modern astrologers assign the 4th house to the same sex parent. In this case, as the querent is a woman, the moderns would assign the 10th to the father. What do you say?

Thanks you explain it to me! I did not know this rule and always wonder how my father is descript with Leo on my 4cups of natal horoscope because it best fits to my mother(even she has Leo ASC!). But know, thanks to you I discover that it is infact my mother (I am female) and so all came to its place!

One question: I know that traditionally the 4th house represents the father, yet the modern astrologers assign the 4th house to the same sex parent. In this case, as the querent is a woman, the moderns would assign the 10th to the father. What do you say?

This is a problem for me too; I know that traditionally the 10th house represents mother and the 4th house father, but I'm female and my IC is in Virgo - it's ruler Mercury is in the 9th house conjunct Venus. My mother is a Libra with Virgo rising and she works as a professor in a university.

My MC is in Pisces - it's ruler Jupiter is in Leo in the 3th house and my father is a Leo with Sagittarius rising. In the past years he used to sell used cars (cars - 3th house!), now he's retired and is a man who loves to chat with shop assistants and other daily encounters, there really is emphasis with the neighbourhood.

So I just cannot see MC representing my mother and IC representing my father.

Yes, in natal astrology, the same sex parent is in the 4th house, while the opposite sex parent is shown in the 10th. Your examples prove it very well.
There is a an example I could bring also: my girlfriends' chart. She has MC in Libra with Venus in Taurus in the 4th house. Her father is a Taurus and is not working, just stays home and takes care of their little farm. The IC is in Aries with Mars in Virgo and the 8th house, and her mother is a maths teacher who brings the money in the house.

I wonder if this couldn't be applied also in horary. In Lilly's times, I suppose that 99% of the querents were men, while the women were staying home and looking after the children, therefore the 4th house always represented the father. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Could this be the reason why the traditional astrology always assigned the 4th house to the father and the 10th house to the mother ?

Yes, in natal astrology, the same sex parent is in the 4th house, while the opposite sex parent is shown in the 10th.

This is one opinion but it is not one I agree with. In natal astrology I always give the 4th house to the father and 10th to the mother. In traditional astrology, the 4th house was considered to be the house of the parents in general and the father specifically. It seems that modern astrologers began to give the mother the 4th house because of the supposed association between Cancer and the 4th house in the natural zodiac (which I don't use). I am not sure where this idea of giving the 4th house to the same sex parent came from. I can't see any sense in it.

Quote:

In Lilly's times, I suppose that 99% of the querents were men, while the women were staying home and looking after the children, therefore the 4th house always represented the father.

I doubt very much that 99% of querents were men. You only have to see the example charts from Lilly to see that women made up a large part of his clientele. And if we followed this reasoning to its logical conclusion then we would have to give the 4th to the mother since it is the home. The 4th house is the house of ancestory or our roots. Because our society is patrilineal, we are generally traced from our father. Hence, the father is the 4th and the mother is the 10th (partner of our father). It is also traditionally the house of our grandparents.

Lilly says of the fourth/tenth house, not just your own father/mother but 'fathers in general' and 'mothers' respectively.

In addition, as Sue says the modern association of First house = Aries = Mars; Second house = Taurus = Venus, etc. seems to have brought rise to a variety of associations which were never part of the tradition.

However, looking at the traditional rulerships of the houses, we start at the ascendant with Saturn, then go to the second house with Jupiter and so on with Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury and Moon. This gives us the Sun ruling 4th house, not Moon/Cancer.

Another example of this is Venus is often associated with money in modern astrology, but traditionally it was Jupiter, ruler of 2nd._________________Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk

Ok, I will not argue anymore. I just asked "what if...?". Thanks for the explanations! I'll keep in mind that traditional astrology assigns the 4th house to the father, no matter what.

Btw, just in case someone might find this interesting, I found this text while surfing: The 4th and 10th house meridian axis has historically experienced some serious "difficulties." The ancient Greeks associated the 4th house with both "parents." At some point in time astrologers replaced "parents" with the Father in the 4th house and shifted Mother to the 10th house. Many modern astrologers have now placed Mother into the 4th and Father into the 10th. If you noticed, I placed the different sex parent in the 4th house and the same sex parent in 10th house. To make matters even more confusing, I'm told that Vedic astrology places Mother in the 4th house and Father in the 9th house. When I get really cornered, I simply call the 4th and 10th house meridian axis the "parental axis. ( Anthony Peņa, astrology.about.com)

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