Ben Hogan foot placement

So I am new to these boards, but looking through I eventually came across the thread with the guy trying to mimic Ben Hogan's swing (very entertaining btw). In the thread I found this diagram that I have never seen before:

Some people use closed or open stances, but based on this diagram it recommends a closed stance with the longer clubs and open with short irons. Does anyone do this, or would this lead to a lot of bad habits creeping in?

Interesting topic - I have a video from a Luther Blacklock on what he coined "Radial Ball Positioning". The video is called "The Lost Fundamentals Of Ben Hogan". Google and you find a few interesting threads on his view of Hogan ball positioning.

I watched the SITD videos early in the spring and they screwed me up so badly, I stopped. Had to...

Not surprising, given your anti-Hogan, anti-Haney, anti-Hardy sentiments. They advocate(d) swinging the club in a way that you didn't agree with, or couldn't do. No harm in that, but it doesn't mean that their ideas won't work great for others.

So I am new to these boards, but looking through I eventually came across the thread with the guy trying to mimic Ben Hogan's swing (very entertaining btw). In the thread I found this diagram that I have never seen before:

Some people use closed or open stances, but based on this diagram it recommends a closed stance with the longer clubs and open with short irons. Does anyone do this, or would this lead to a lot of bad habits creeping in?

I try to do it most of the time. The idea of "helping" your swing find the correct arc, based on which club you are using, is certainly interesting, and probably a little controversial. Some say Hogan discovered the "D plane" decades before high-speed videos confirmed its existence. Or maybe he just found he hit better shots when he set up the way he did.

I try to do it most of the time. The idea of "helping" your swing find the correct arc, based on which club you are using, is certainly interesting, and probably a little controversial. Some say Hogan discovered the "D plane" decades before high-speed videos confirmed its existence. Or maybe he just found he hit better shots when he set up the way he did.

Right. I think it's a lot more of the latter. The D-Plane could retroactively help explain why he possibly chose to set up that way, but for example, with the driver, it's unlikely he hit up 10°, which he'd need to get a reliable little baby fade with the setup that closed. More than likely the slightly closed setup with his lower body helped counter that he set up a little open with his upper body (ball forward will tend to open up your shoulders).

As H said, he just hit better shots. That's why 5 Lessons and most of what Hogan wrote is not really instruction per se, it's really much more about "here's how I, Ben Hogan, swing the golf club."

Not surprising, given your anti-Hogan, anti-Haney, anti-Hardy sentiments. They advocate(d) swinging the club in a way that you didn't agree with, or couldn't do. No harm in that, but it doesn't mean that their ideas won't work great for others.

Oh, I don't mind parts of Hogan, love to watch him on video.

Haney? A semi-method of teaching that pushes and pulls students into a position without conversation and then they ask you to feel as if the left wrist is to the ground -- not much for that. They (at least the head instructors who taught me) weren't much for the basics of the arm-body connection. I'm not much for too shallow, over-rotating and rolling wrists. Swinging to right field? Good advice.

But I'm not the only one who is a Haney critic. Everytime I ran into a golf shop and mentioned I was seeing a Haney instructor, I'd get crap. Having time to look back, I agree with the critics. But Haney instructors made a lot of money. So it was good for them.

Hardy? He kept his "secrets" under lock and key unless you kept buying more "secrets." That's okay - it's the American way. But the way it was taught? Get your right hand as far away from you on the backswing, then rotate your right arm like you're throwing a screwball and swing to the left as hard as you can?

It may work for some ... good luck to them. But both methods had one thing in common - poor attention to the basics and the little things, and more interest in their method.

I learned a lot, but I just don't use it. Lots of slightly different ways to swing a golf club. Some people want it simple. I don't. I like to understand and I like a solid foundation, so when the swing goes wrong and it always does, I can correct it.

So enough of the threadjack. I was merely warning others that SITD can also screw you up, although parts of it are educational. You've just got to know enough to take the good and throw out what doesn't work.

And admittedly, I like to question authority and old ways of doing things. Shaking things up can challenge people, or it can cause them to go bitter and on the attack... oh, well... back to golf.

Ah, well - that is why I chose to name it "entertaining" video. The dirters (SITD) are fun to watch - Elk makes Golf look like an epic quest. (Were ten words could say it all.)

The Blacklock video has more on Hogan's swing, but IMHO it is not really worth watching it. I got it for free from the Hogan Club. I remember a McLean video on Hogans swing, which was as interesting as Hogans book.

Just stumbled across this sorry if it's old and no one cares to check it...

The foot position Hogan used, as I've found, is really more appropriately described as a "closed to the body" stance with every club, just adjusted as the clubs get longer. And, yes, I mean this even when the stance is open. Just keep reading it'll make sense... kind of.

If you watch in his pre shot routines, he starts with the feet close together, parallel to each other, but at about a 45ish degree slant to the left of the desired stance (in the case of wedges, slightly open... etc.). You'll see, if you stand closer or "hugged up" to the ball, as I like to say, as he did in his pre shot, you can do this while keeping the toes on the same line your actual stance will be on. From there, move the left foot out and back from the target line, maintaining the angle of that foot, then, move the right foot back and out slightly. At this point, the right toes are pointed inward. Now, this is important. DON'T FLARE THE RIGHT TOES OUT, but instead, pull the right heel inward. This will allow you to maintain the leg/knee position, with the knee inward. It ultimately feels like the leg is twisted inward, which is awesome because it makes you JUST uncomfortable enough that you want to release the leg, and when you do, VOILA the rest follows perfectly with basically no effort. Unless you decide to interrupt. I recommend not interrupting. If you set up right, the first move is done for you.

You'll see that the toes end up on a line parallel to the one they were on when you had your feet close together, but now they're both pointing outward. So, as long as you adjust the RIGHT HEAL to cause the toes flare out to the right, and keep the left foot the same, it'll give you the feeling of lining up with a fairly drastic closed stance, but everything will be as it should be relative to the target line. The knees and the posture allow you to feel the power that we feel when lining up for a draw, while conveniently having your shoulders, hips, and "feet" on the actual target line.. Done properly, all of a sudden that ball position he claimed to be off his left heel suspiciously looks and feels A LOT more like it's off the right heal, at least relative to where you are holding your "pent up energy" or "load". No one else will know if they're watching, but you will absolutely feel it if you do it right.

It's kind of a mind f**k, trust me I know...I'm the one who had to figure it out... but try it. The key is doing this little pre shot gimick, and keeping the body/knees in the orientation they are in when your feet are close together and parallel to each other, and your body is hunkered down... what I call the "mini hook stance". That's how he did it, I'm 100% convinced. Because, well... you can watch him do it in any video of him getting ready to hit a shot. Tough to argue that logic.. (In summary, line up with your feet together in a ultra narrow hook stance toes pointed 45 degrees left, then just adjust the feet back and out, keeping the toes on a line parallel to the one they start on. Do this WITHOUT changing the angle of the left foot, but by pulling the right heel inward so that, visually, the right toes are flared out, but the right knee/leg orientation remains the same as when the toes are pointed in).

Ya, it's a mouth full. Sue me.

After all, his problem, as he said, was he had such a bad book he couldn't aim far enough right to play a dog leg left to right or he'd hit the trees. When you do this correctly, you'll see it's basically like aiming out to the left 45 degrees like you're going to hit a hook 45 degrees left of THAT (90 degrees left of your target), then, keeping everything the same, just shuffling your feet back to the actual target. Like I said, it's a mind ****, which in my opinion is the very reason no one ever figured it out.. but you'll see how everything ends up working out. Just mess with it, trust me. Did wonders for me. And I was a hooker, a bad one. No, not like Red Light District shit. Worse.

Oh and Hogan said "Reverse every natural instinct you have and do the opposite of what you're inclined to do, and you'll probably be close to having the perfect golf swing."

Just stumbled across this sorry if it's old and no one cares to check it...

The foot position Hogan used, as I've found, is really more appropriately described as a "closed to the body" stance with every club, just adjusted as the clubs get longer. And, yes, I mean this even when the stance is open. Just keep reading it'll make sense... kind of.

If you watch in his pre shot routines, he starts with the feet close together, parallel to each other, but at about a 45ish degree slant to the left of the desired stance (in the case of wedges, slightly open... etc.). You'll see, if you stand closer or "hugged up" to the ball, as I like to say, as he did in his pre shot, you can do this while keeping the toes on the same line your actual stance will be on. From there, move the left foot out and back from the target line, maintaining the angle of that foot, then, move the right foot back and out slightly. At this point, the right toes are pointed inward. Now, this is important. DON'T FLARE THE RIGHT TOES OUT, but instead, pull the right heel inward. This will allow you to maintain the leg/knee position, with the knee inward. It ultimately feels like the leg is twisted inward, which is awesome because it makes you JUST uncomfortable enough that you want to release the leg, and when you do, VOILA the rest follows perfectly with basically no effort. Unless you decide to interrupt. I recommend not interrupting. If you set up right, the first move is done for you.

You'll see that the toes end up on a line parallel to the one they were on when you had your feet close together, but now they're both pointing outward. So, as long as you adjust the RIGHT HEAL to cause the toes flare out to the right, and keep the left foot the same, it'll give you the feeling of lining up with a fairly drastic closed stance, but everything will be as it should be relative to the target line. The knees and the posture allow you to feel the power that we feel when lining up for a draw, while conveniently having your shoulders, hips, and "feet" on the actual target line.. Done properly, all of a sudden that ball position he claimed to be off his left heel suspiciously looks and feels A LOT more like it's off the right heal, at least relative to where you are holding your "pent up energy" or "load". No one else will know if they're watching, but you will absolutely feel it if you do it right.

It's kind of a mind f**k, trust me I know...I'm the one who had to figure it out... but try it. The key is doing this little pre shot gimick, and keeping the body/knees in the orientation they are in when your feet are close together and parallel to each other, and your body is hunkered down... what I call the "mini hook stance". That's how he did it, I'm 100% convinced. Because, well... you can watch him do it in any video of him getting ready to hit a shot. Tough to argue that logic.. (In summary, line up with your feet together in a ultra narrow hook stance toes pointed 45 degrees left, then just adjust the feet back and out, keeping the toes on a line parallel to the one they start on. Do this WITHOUT changing the angle of the left foot, but by pulling the right heel inward so that, visually, the right toes are flared out, but the right knee/leg orientation remains the same as when the toes are pointed in).

Ya, it's a mouth full. Sue me.

After all, his problem, as he said, was he had such a bad book he couldn't aim far enough right to play a dog leg left to right or he'd hit the trees. When you do this correctly, you'll see it's basically like aiming out to the left 45 degrees like you're going to hit a hook 45 degrees left of THAT (90 degrees left of your target), then, keeping everything the same, just shuffling your feet back to the actual target. Like I said, it's a mind ****, which in my opinion is the very reason no one ever figured it out.. but you'll see how everything ends up working out. Just mess with it, trust me. Did wonders for me. And I was a hooker, a bad one. No, not like Red Light District shit. Worse.

Oh and Hogan said "Reverse every natural instinct you have and do the opposite of what you're inclined to do, and you'll probably be close to having the perfect golf swing."

Just saying...

J

I'm sorry, but I read this three times and I still have no idea what you're trying to say. Do you have pictures? That might help.

Haha... I just read through it myself and before I realized you had commented on it I thought, "Now this is a perfect example of why man invented video recording devices.."

To anyone who reads this and is as confused as they should be, rest assured It's actually quite simple. I'm going to put together a little clip of me doing/explaining the process, and post it up on my youtube channel. The link will be up here by Jan 31 if anyone is interested in checking it out. What's more interesting is, when I really got the hang of it, I started noticing that on video my hands LOOK like they're slightly forward pressed, but in reality it's the reverse. This position is nice because, while it feels like you're "under" the initial plane, it makes it a very smooth transition in to the back swing because the club basically falls in to place as it should. The best way to put it in short is, it's like I'm setting up half way in to the back swing, which has taken me from having a super long, past parallel, loose back swing.. to a short, compact back swing without feeling any loss of power. We all know the feeling of trying to shorten our back swing, and just not being able to feel like we're even CLOSE to creating the energy we need to get the ball going with any sort of UMPH.

For me, it's made the first half of the swing nearly automatic, and any mistakes I make are a result of miscues in the set up rather than active swing flaws. Even when I do hit errant shots, I'm still getting the nice full HoganISH (let's not get too carried away) release and follow through - hands come all the way around and over the left shoulder - carry me up to the finish involuntarily. It's made it extremely comfortable for me to swing as hard as I can without ever feeling out of balance. Which, at least for this guy, was a huge issue. Always hanging back on my right side no matter how hard I tried and no matter what advice any teaching pros or range heroes gave me. Once I found that this completely remedied that, I figured I had at least some obligation to share it with the fellow inquiring minded golfer.

Either way, bad shots are going to happen. Not saying I have figured it all out by any means..... everyone has a different opinion on how to swing the club. For me, if I could have some doctor mechanize my body so that I could click a button and have a solid swing every time I'd be all about it. If that's not you, then my advice probably isn't worth the paper it ISN'T printed on (worthless). I'm a big believer that you put the thought in ahead of time, to avoid any thought at all during the swing, other than - of course - where you want it to end up. In a sense, Hyper analysis can be productive, but only if it's in an attempt to eliminate it when it's time to go play for real.

Anyway, video to come... unless you can REALLY digest words and follow confusing instruction, scrap the first post.

Haha... I just read through it myself and before I realized you had commented on it I thought, "Now this is a perfect example of why man invented video recording devices.."

To anyone who reads this and is as confused as they should be, rest assured It's actually quite simple. I'm going to put together a little clip of me doing/explaining the process, and post it up on my youtube channel. The link will be up here by Jan 31 if anyone is interested in checking it out. What's more interesting is, when I really got the hang of it, I started noticing that on video my hands LOOK like they're slightly forward pressed, but in reality it's the reverse. This position is nice because, while it feels like you're "under" the initial plane, it makes it a very smooth transition in to the back swing because the club basically falls in to place as it should. The best way to put it in short is, it's like I'm setting up half way in to the back swing, which has taken me from having a super long, past parallel, loose back swing.. to a short, compact back swing without feeling any loss of power. We all know the feeling of trying to shorten our back swing, and just not being able to feel like we're even CLOSE to creating the energy we need to get the ball going with any sort of UMPH.

For me, it's made the first half of the swing nearly automatic, and any mistakes I make are a result of miscues in the set up rather than active swing flaws. Even when I do hit errant shots, I'm still getting the nice full HoganISH (let's not get too carried away) release and follow through - hands come all the way around and over the left shoulder - carry me up to the finish involuntarily. It's made it extremely comfortable for me to swing as hard as I can without ever feeling out of balance. Which, at least for this guy, was a huge issue. Always hanging back on my right side no matter how hard I tried and no matter what advice any teaching pros or range heroes gave me. Once I found that this completely remedied that, I figured I had at least some obligation to share it with the fellow inquiring minded golfer.

Either way, bad shots are going to happen. Not saying I have figured it all out by any means..... everyone has a different opinion on how to swing the club. For me, if I could have some doctor mechanize my body so that I could click a button and have a solid swing every time I'd be all about it. If that's not you, then my advice probably isn't worth the paper it ISN'T printed on (worthless). I'm a big believer that you put the thought in ahead of time, to avoid any thought at all during the swing, other than - of course - where you want it to end up. In a sense, Hyper analysis can be productive, but only if it's in an attempt to eliminate it when it's time to go play for real.

Anyway, video to come... unless you can REALLY digest words and follow confusing instruction, scrap the first post.

J

Can we just scratch both posts and start over, I just didn't have the capacity to read either of the posts..

Please rephrase again, but with more paragraphs completing specific thoughts you may have.. Again, sorry for not being able to understand!

Haha okay as concise as possible without picture and/or video. The read the first few paragraphs again.. maybe the wording is better. In caps at the bottom is the absolute simplest way I can explain it, and the video that first made me realize what he was doing.

The idea is this... take your stance square to the target you want to hit at. Now, imagine the ball is off your left toe, and you're actually aiming 45 degrees to the left, and trying to hook the shit out of it. So your shoulders would be open 45 degrees, and your legs/hips would be twisted to the left, right knee trailing the left knee. Now, just keep everything the same but square your shoulders back up to your target line. Basically, the set up you'll be in will be a static position that, if you were to swing BACK from the follow through, would be the half way point.

This is how we should all picture it, really. Because almost EVERYONE who plays golf neglects the fact that, when we HIT the ball for real our hips, shoulders, body, legs EVERYTHING opens well to the left, and our hands lag behind. The club reaches it's maximum speed at about parallel to the ground AFTER impact. So why not utilize that space in the set up? Honestly it's a fundamental thing but it's worthless if you don't understand why you're doing it. As you start the swing, picture yourself as coming BACK to where you are from the follow through. A lot of good players do this, I just think Hogans foot and entire set up position represents the most efficient, fundamental approach to maximizing the effect of it. You're NOT trying to get back to where you were at address when you hit the ball, so it's flawed to approach it as if you're "starting" your coil from there. The coil should start from the position your body will be in just after impact, when you're fully released - Legs, knees, shoulders are open to the target and you're standing more upright than crouched over. If you were a wind up golf toy, the person winding you up would wind you from the released position, not from square to the target. Done correctly, you already feel a ton of power when you're set up. You don't feel like you have to really create power at all, you just have to take the club back to create the speed. The hips turn a little bit but only to facilitate a level shoulder turn.

The part that has to be learned is exactly how you do it without feeling all tangled up. In Hogan's theory, as far as I'm concerned, that means keeping everything below the hips the same as it is after release, and just pulling the right shoulder back to square. The left shoulder comes up slightly, and gets closer in to the ball. This is why his arms, especially the left one, were so close in to his body. The FIRST thing he does is straighten the left arm out and get it away from his body... which is exactly how it would look if he were to set up with his hips and shoulders wide open to the target. Also, it's why the back swing looks so abbreviated. All he's doing is taking the club back.. the lower body is already good to go. It gets pulled a little bit tighter but only as a result of the shoulder turn.

OK HERE'S the absolute simplest way I can explain it...

GO TO YOUR FOLLOW THROUGH POSITION AND LET YOURSELF GO COMPLETELY LIMP, FALLING BACK ON TO YOUR RIGHT FOOT.

Now, in the fewest moves possible, put the club face behind the ball and get comfortable. Legs stay where they are.

***Last thing is to remember, mentally, when you start the take away you should be imagining it as a continuation of a turn started from the fully released position.

---- Best I can word it my friend. If you still have no clue what I'm talking about, look at the first couple minutes of this video. Hit mute cause dude's a dumbass and could destroy anyone's swing in a matter of minutes. Just think about what I'm saying and watch what Hogan does to get set up to the ball, then pause it right after impact and think about how he'd get from that position BACK to his set up.

Keep the faith man. I'm not crazy.. the video I'll post up tomorrow will make it WAYYYY easier, I assure you. And I'll show you some full swings so you know I'm not just another nut job who claims to understand Hogan. My swing went from shit to very, very similar to his in a matter of one range session, and it ALL stemmed from this. I don't do this for a living so I can't explain it perfectly on a blog, but I promise you any one can understand it. You're welcome to send me videos back of you trying it and I can give you some pointers. Everyone thinks differently, I know, but the fundamentals are the same regardless of how you go about learning them.

Haha okay as concise as possible without picture and/or video. The read the first few paragraphs again.. maybe the wording is better. In caps at the bottom is the absolute simplest way I can explain it, and the video that first made me realize what he was doing.

The idea is this... take your stance square to the target you want to hit at. Now, imagine the ball is off your left toe, and you're actually aiming 45 degrees to the left, and trying to hook the shit out of it. So your shoulders would be open 45 degrees, and your legs/hips would be twisted to the left, right knee trailing the left knee. Now, just keep everything the same but square your shoulders back up to your target line. Basically, the set up you'll be in will be a static position that, if you were to swing BACK from the follow through, would be the half way point.

This is how we should all picture it, really. Because almost EVERYONE who plays golf neglects the fact that, when we HIT the ball for real our hips, shoulders, body, legs EVERYTHING opens well to the left, and our hands lag behind. The club reaches it's maximum speed at about parallel to the ground AFTER impact. So why not utilize that space in the set up? Honestly it's a fundamental thing but it's worthless if you don't understand why you're doing it. As you start the swing, picture yourself as coming BACK to where you are from the follow through. A lot of good players do this, I just think Hogans foot and entire set up position represents the most efficient, fundamental approach to maximizing the effect of it. You're NOT trying to get back to where you were at address when you hit the ball, so it's flawed to approach it as if you're "starting" your coil from there. The coil should start from the position your body will be in just after impact, when you're fully released - Legs, knees, shoulders are open to the target and you're standing more upright than crouched over. If you were a wind up golf toy, the person winding you up would wind you from the released position, not from square to the target. Done correctly, you already feel a ton of power when you're set up. You don't feel like you have to really create power at all, you just have to take the club back to create the speed. The hips turn a little bit but only to facilitate a level shoulder turn.

The part that has to be learned is exactly how you do it without feeling all tangled up. In Hogan's theory, as far as I'm concerned, that means keeping everything below the hips the same as it is after release, and just pulling the right shoulder back to square. The left shoulder comes up slightly, and gets closer in to the ball. This is why his arms, especially the left one, were so close in to his body. The FIRST thing he does is straighten the left arm out and get it away from his body... which is exactly how it would look if he were to set up with his hips and shoulders wide open to the target. Also, it's why the back swing looks so abbreviated. All he's doing is taking the club back.. the lower body is already good to go. It gets pulled a little bit tighter but only as a result of the shoulder turn.

OK HERE'S the absolute simplest way I can explain it...

GO TO YOUR FOLLOW THROUGH POSITION AND LET YOURSELF GO COMPLETELY LIMP, FALLING BACK ON TO YOUR RIGHT FOOT.

Now, in the fewest moves possible, put the club face behind the ball and get comfortable. Legs stay where they are.

***Last thing is to remember, mentally, when you start the take away you should be imagining it as a continuation of a turn started from the fully released position.

---- Best I can word it my friend. If you still have no clue what I'm talking about, look at the first couple minutes of this video. Hit mute cause dude's a dumbass and could destroy anyone's swing in a matter of minutes. Just think about what I'm saying and watch what Hogan does to get set up to the ball, then pause it right after impact and think about how he'd get from that position BACK to his set up.

Keep the faith man. I'm not crazy.. the video I'll post up tomorrow will make it WAYYYY easier, I assure you. And I'll show you some full swings so you know I'm not just another nut job who claims to understand Hogan. My swing went from shit to very, very similar to his in a matter of one range session, and it ALL stemmed from this. I don't do this for a living so I can't explain it perfectly on a blog, but I promise you any one can understand it. You're welcome to send me videos back of you trying it and I can give you some pointers. Everyone thinks differently, I know, but the fundamentals are the same regardless of how you go about learning them.

Great.. Thanks bro.. I mean what you are saying makes total sense.. I mean why would the admin let you keep writing if you were a nut job.. That's an accomplishment in my book.. S, I'm sold man.. Can you just take a look at my swing thread and see if i can physically make the change to be more like the great Ben hogan? Again thanks for helping me out..

Absolutely... so here's some generational irony - not sure how I go about looking at your swing thread? Haha. I'm new to this particular forum so I'm sure that's something most users on here understand but I'm a newby so help me out..

Whoops... I thought you said "I'm old" haha. Never mind I figured it out and yeah you can absolutely do it. First I'll send you a tutorial on exactly how to grip the club. That's the first step. Your club face is closed looks like due to a combination of standing too close and over top of the ball and the grip itself not allowing for natural rotation. When you grip it right the rotation happens very easily. The problem is, most of the information on the grip goes something like this "In the general orientation the club will be in at address, set the grip like this.." Which is useless. First you have to determine the lie angle for the particular person, then you have to consider their size/hand type. It's not complex, that'll be easy.

So ya before we get too deep in to anything else as far as stance and posture, let's get your spacing from the ball settled and get that grip dialed in. You'll be amazed at how much the grip can do for you. One of my favorite things is revealing that to high handicappers... love the look on people's faces when they finally get it and say "Oh my god REALLY!!?!"