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If you don't have a problem with the death penalty, I think stories like these should give you pause. It seems like I hear of prisoners being found innocent on a monthly basis after serving many years in prison. Unfortunately for some in this story, the facts came too late as some were already put to death. The North Carolina crime lab is accused of hiding evidence to come to the conclusion they and prosecutors wanted. Michael Jordan's father is involved in this story as he was murdered. I wonder just how many innocent people are in prison or have been put to death.

Most people I know who support the death penalty are okay with "mistakes". I abhor the death penalty, but I'm also anti abortion (except in rare cases). My politics are convoluted and complicated to say the least.

Most people I know who support the death penalty are okay with "mistakes". I abhor the death penalty, but I'm also anti abortion (except in rare cases). My politics are convoluted and complicated to say the least.

You're anti abortion? What the fuck does a woman's right to choose have to do with the likes of you? There's an old feminist saying:

If men could fall pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.

With reference to the OP, Matty the Damned is fanatically anti death penalty.

You're anti abortion? What the fuck does a woman's right to choose have to do with the likes of you? There's an old feminist saying:

If men could fall pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.

With reference to the OP, Matty the Damned is fanatically anti death penalty.

MtD

I'm anti abortion as birth control. Of course I'm not huge on reproductive rights in general. I think most people should be fixed at birth and then when they prove they aren't complete fuck ups they should have the process reversed when they are able to provide for their spawn.

I'm anti abortion as birth control. Of course I'm not huge on reproductive rights in general. I think most people should be fixed at birth and then when they prove they aren't complete fuck ups they should have the process reversed when they are able to provide for their spawn.

All of sudden I'm wondering if post natal abortion might be appropriate in certain cases.

This is so true, my Dear Damned One. Hellraiser, don't you dare think about putting your hands all over my rights. Until you've been through the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, keep your laws to yourself.

As for the death penalty, I am totally against it. There are mistakes every day, judges falling asleep, yet letting the gaval fall too quickly etc. Maybe someday, it'll be a distant memory.

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

please provide statistics on the amount of women who utilize abortions as birth control, in a manner as cavalier as slapping on a condom

I personally know a girl who has had at a minimum 3 abortions. Unlike her, I hope that most women who have abortions view them as a last ditch effort and take them incredibly seriously. I know some do not however. As for any abortion statistics I'm sure there are none about the state of mind prior to the conception.

If it came down to banning all abortions outright, or keeping the right to abortion intact then I would side with most socially liberal and progressive people to retain the right. However, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of abortion and feel it should be restricted to specific circumstances. Since navigating the circumstances and reasons for an abortion is murky at best the only real option is to keep them available to everyone. Luckily this is not an issue I personally will ever have to deal with.

I personally know a girl who has had at a minimum 3 abortions. Unlike her, I hope that most women who have abortions view them as a last ditch effort and take them incredibly seriously. I know some do not however. As for any abortion statistics I'm sure there are none about the state of mind prior to the conception.

If it came down to banning all abortions outright, or keeping the right to abortion intact then I would side with most socially liberal and progressive people to retain the right. However, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of abortion and feel it should be restricted to specific circumstances. Since navigating the circumstances and reasons for an abortion is murky at best the only real option is to keep them available to everyone. Luckily this is not an issue I personally will ever have to deal with.

That's like an HIV- person saying that since they know one HIV+ that has intentionally infected someone else we should lock up all of the pozzies... or something, rather than looking at the larger picture and data set which would clearly lead one to have a more rationale, less emotionally led opinion.

That's like an HIV- person saying that since they know one HIV+ that has intentionally infected someone else we should lock up all of the pozzies... or something, rather than looking at the larger picture and data set which would clearly lead one to have a more rationale, less emotionally led opinion.

Desperately trying not to derail Ted's thread, but no I see the reasoning for things necessitating the way they are implemented, but I just can't agree with it. No one actually likes abortion it's just a necessary evil.

Oh Oh Oh the endless and paradoxical discussions/arguments that can, have and will continue to be made around topics such as the death penalty and abortion - definitely always evoke strong emotions - I remember in college we were told to avoid these areas when selecting term paper subjects. As cut and dry as they may seem in regards to forming an opinion and then using opinion as a basis for action, there are so many factors that play into formation of defined thought outcome for each - if one were to really look at each of the arguments/justifications/explanations for each - both pro and con, for and against the paradoxes would be readily identifiable - much like the staircase that leads nowhere. Truly subjects that can form the basis of eternal, infinite arguments among those with opposing views.

Not arguing one way or the other and not reflecting my view on either here - just thoughts to further discussion:- Does it seem that most who are pro choice (not necessarily pro abortion) are also anti-death penalty?- Does it seem that most who are pro death penalty are also anti abortion against choice?- Does it seem that most who are pro death penalty and anti abortion/ against choice (and many times against gay rights) are also most against government interference in personal matters and matters tied to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?- Does it make more sense to abolish death penalty and instead incarcerate for life (at the expense of taxpayers) those found guilty of capital crimes? Particularly when we aren't always sure the guilty are actually guilty. Particularly when the cost of imprisonment comes at the expense of adequately being able to fund other needed services (i.e. HIV treatment). Knowing that the criminal justice system as a product of society has institutionalized injustices built in (talk about a concept - the very system that is supposed to measure and balance justice is by its very creation out of balance and unjust) - those with $$$ are able to afford better defense; those with property and money are able to bail/bond out and help with their defense; there is a certain predisposition to perceiving someone as guilty who is sitting in jail, as opposed to finding guilt in someone who is able to bond out and be on the streets before the trial begins.

I used to teach diversity in jails and we would discuss the stereotype about one race committing more crime then another - a lot of this was perception based on conviction rates - didn't take into account that one race might not be able to bond out based on discrimination against tied to getting a mortgage (with said mortgage a/k/a property ownership making it easier to obtain bond/bail) - and factor, after factor, after factor....

So why the above dissertation (if that is loosely what one would call it)? Because, for some issues there really is no way to come to a resolution or standard of agreement other than to agree to disagree). Also, many of these very same issues create conflict in the morals, values, understanding and actions of individuals themselves.

I am pro death penalty, with certain caveats. *ducks as tomatoes are thrown my way*.

But I'm not "OK" with mistakes. I think a moratorium should be enacted for anyone who has received the death penalty based on blood evidence alone, there is too much room for mistakes or intentional tampering with the blood evidence, as indicated in the OP's link. I believe states such as Texas are too cavalier in doling out the death penalty in "blood only" cases.

I wholeheartedly and unequivocally support the death penalty when there is irrefutable eyewitness evidence the the crime (a capital offense) was committed by the defendant...

Example, irrefutable eyewitness evidence could be caught on a camera as in the case of Tx. Trooper Vetter shot in the head by an individual he stopped for a seatbelt violation:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFPDeiQFfZs

Irrefutable evidence could be in the form of overwhelming personal eyewitness situations, Such as Major Hasan in the Ft. Hood massacre, The Lubys massacre where George Hannard murdered 23 people (had he lived and been found competent), The Virginia Tech massacre (had he lived)...to name a few.

Where there is not irrefutable eyewitness evidence I believe the death penal;ty should be off the table, such as only a single eyewitness, or multiple eyewitnesses who are associated with each other or are of questionable character or have questionable motives

I also believe in the Death penalty where a person is in prison and has established a history of violence in prison and then kills more than one fellow inmates or guards and there exists overwhelming witness evidence such as cameras, or fellow inmates or guards.

I could go on for 80 pages regarding what I believe should be done with the Death Penalty and why I support it in certain circumstances, but the above hi lites the major points (but there are others).

Regarding abortion, I agree with Heckraisers comments and his concern for it being used as birth control. Ive known 2 separate women who have had 2 and 3 abortions respectively as birth control (I'm not referring to rape), and in my mind if only one instance of using abortion as birth control occurred, it is one too many. That's what condoms are for. If you are a woman and you agree to have have unprotected sex you are agreeing to the possibility of bearing a child, the ramifications of which I do not believe should be eliminated by abortion.

I actually did a major paper, for my law class, on the Death Penalty. It was incredibly difficult but very enlightening. The conclusion of my paper was the premise that the Death Penalty is wrong, because you cannot be absolutely sure you are executing the right person. And that the state has no inherent right to execute an innocent person.

As to abortion, that's always been easy for me. Nobody has the right to tell another person, what to do with their body, period. You may notice I did not say women, because when you get the right to control female reproduction, then you can get the right to do just about anything, to anyone, for any reason. I believe the choice of abortion, is between the parents and their beliefs.

Edited to add: About the death penalty... some of you argue for its use, while opposing abortion, but in reality, isn't the death penalty equal to abortion, in that they both end a human life? I'll concede there are vast differences between the two, however their end result remains the same.

I am opposed to the death penalty . I have a huge problem with the system in place where career politicians , meaning district attorneys advocate for the death penalty . How is it possible an elected official can remain impartial and leave politics aside when he or she is doing what politicians do , trying to pander to constituents to save a job for themselves . I also think its just wrong .

Look at the case where the FBI lab had been relying on bullet analysis for years , it was excepted science that they could match bullets back to a box or batch of bullets . They were wrong and folks are still setting in prison based on that evidence to this day . There is no automatic appeal for these imprisoned people convicted on this bad science or evidence . I wonder how many are on death row and cant afford an attorney .

Edited to add: About the death penalty... some of you argue for its use, while opposing abortion, but in reality, isn't the death penalty equal to abortion, in that they both end a human life? I'll concede there are vast differences between the two, however their end result remains the same.

ahhh, yes, the timeless paradox. a philosophy that can be used by either side. The other side being... If a person is against the death penalty but advocates abortion, isn't abortion then equal to the death penalty? Don't they both end a human life? but of course then we get into the sticky arena of "when does life begin?"

I think the answer lies in the "vast differences between the two" that you alluded too.

ahhh, yes, the timeless paradox. a philosophy that can be used by either side. The other side being... If a person is against the death penalty but advocates abortion, isn't abortion then equal to the death penalty? Don't they both end a human life? but of course then we get into the sticky arena of "when does life begin?"

I think the answer lies in the "vast differences between the two" that you alluded too.

-W

and adding more to the timeless paradox is...."abortion is the taking of an innocent life; death penalty is the taking of a guilty life" Adding further would be being that a pro choice/anti-death penalty supporter would be seen by the opposing side as being okay with the taking of an innocent life) while at the same time being against the taking of a guilty life. --- The paradoxes of the critically thinking are many.

Edited to add: I choose to remain neutral so as not to ruin my chances of Senate confirmation for future Supreme Court Justice.

My opposition to the death penalty rests with the fact and we all know, it is wrong, to intentionally kill another human being. When you cross that line, you are playing god and no matter how heinous the crime, we have no inherent right to kill someone, if we are to be true to human nature. Yes it costs more to incarcerate them, but given the decades of appeals involved with the death penalty, we are going to spend the money, one way or another.

I cannot offer an opinion, on abortion, because it does not involve my body. I believe we have an unalienable right, to control what happens to our bodies. Again, you start dictating who lives and who dies and you are right back to playing god. Abortion involves an incredibly complex set of emotions and since I am not a female, my opinion means nothing. I believe that many pregnancies could be prevented, if religious dogma was removed from sexual education. Tell people the truth, get both sides involved in prevention and give them the tools that they need. It saddens me that so many folks look down on human sexuality, as something dirty or perverted. I just do not understand. You want to limit abortions?, then change the system so we can avoid as many unwanted pregnancies, without the need for abortion.

Instead, government and other groups, muddy the waters with incomplete and sometimes outright lies, as if you can scare someone into doing something, that goes against all human instincts. I believe that if the opponents to abortion, spent half of their time and money on prevention, the issue of abortion would become less serious. Maybe one answer is to build into insurance, a form of prevention services, that would cover prevention services which are scientifically sound. But all of that leads to further discussion of American culture, because even though our founding documents, provide for separation of church and state, the reality is so very different.

One thing I have noticed, since moving to Canada, is Canadians seem to be very good at separating what are religious vs. secular issues and to address them accordingly. It's very different here and when Stephen Harper was reelected, after Canada extended marriage to all citizens, he started a campaign to reopen that issue. Canadians, in their own modest way, essentially told him to STFU, that issue had already been decided. For me, it is always easier to separate the real questions and then try to answer them in the most humane way possible.

If you are a woman and you agree to have have unprotected sex you are agreeing to the possibility of bearing a child, the ramifications of which I do not believe should be eliminated by abortion.

-Will[/quote]

Do you volunteer your time as a mentor? Would you be willing to support all the unwanted children that would be a result of unwanted pregnancies? I doubt you do, or would want to (or be able to). So, just chalk up more drug addicted babies, abused kids who weren't wanted in the first place etc. There are circumstances, where a woman (or a man, for that matter) isn't necessarily thinking about birth control. I don't believe any person should force a woman into going to term with a pregnancy, and keeping a child that wasn't wanted in the first place. Too many desperate, and unpleasant things can result.

Edited to add: sorry, I messed up the quote function somehow. I was quoting Willywump.

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I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

If you are a woman and you agree to have have unprotected sex you are agreeing to the possibility of bearing a child, the ramifications of which I do not believe should be eliminated by abortion.

-Will

Do you volunteer your time as a mentor? Would you be willing to support all the unwanted children that would be a result of unwanted pregnancies? I doubt you do, or would want to (or be able to). So, just chalk up more drug addicted babies, abused kids who weren't wanted in the first place etc. There are circumstances, where a woman (or a man, for that matter) isn't necessarily thinking about birth control. I don't believe any person should force a woman into going to term with a pregnancy, and keeping a child that wasn't wanted in the first place. Too many desperate, and unpleasant things can result.

Edited to add: sorry, I messed up the quote function somehow. I was quoting Willywump.

Just making sure we keep the conversation equal here and look at all parts - so in the instances you are talking about - adoption wouldn't be an option?? Better to kill the child and avoid the abuse or drug addiction that might end in his/her death or other harsh consequences -- Just saying - something to think about when looking at both sides of the discussion. Good thing MLK's parents didn't think about abortion and of course Mary was an unmarried mom.... Just generating discussion - not taking any sides here.

My opposition to the death penalty rests with the fact and we all know, it is wrong, to intentionally kill another human being. When you cross that line, you are playing god and no matter how heinous the crime, we have no inherent right to kill someone, if we are to be true to human nature.

If "we all knows it is wrong to intentionally kill another human being" why have human beings been killing each other, by the millions, throughout human history? If you look at the human race objectively "human nature" clearly demonstrates that humans kill other humans under certain circumstances. If you want to say God, or a divine being, doesn't want us to kill people that is an entirely different argument.

If you are a woman and you agree to have have unprotected sex you are agreeing to the possibility of bearing a child, the ramifications of which I do not believe should be eliminated by abortion.

-Will

Do you volunteer your time as a mentor? Would you be willing to support all the unwanted children that would be a result of unwanted pregnancies? I doubt you do, or would want to (or be able to). So, just chalk up more drug addicted babies, abused kids who weren't wanted in the first place etc. There are circumstances, where a woman (or a man, for that matter) isn't necessarily thinking about birth control. I don't believe any person should force a woman into going to term with a pregnancy, and keeping a child that wasn't wanted in the first place. Too many desperate, and unpleasant things can result.

Edited to add: sorry, I messed up the quote function somehow. I was quoting Willywump.

I'll refrain from commenting directly to your post, as it would serve no purpose. Although I am curious about what me mentoring has to do about my beliefs on abortion.This debate has been occuring for decades, and as we know is one of the most volatile issues there is. I try not to judge you or anyone else who is pro-abortion, you are no better than I , and I am no better than you.

I make no apologies to anyone and stand behind my quote,as it is what I believe. However the quote should read "If you are a woman OR A MAN and you agree to have have unprotected sex you are agreeing to the possibility of bearing a child, the ramifications of which I do not believe should be eliminated by abortion"

I will however offer you the reason for my anit-abortion stance, and it's from personal, painful experiece (yes, even men are affected by abortion)

When a fertilized egg attaches to the uterine wall, nothing (with a few exceptions of nature) will prevent it from becoming a human being who can think, speak, live and love. Nothing that is except abortion. When we abort a fetus we are removing the possibility that the fetus will grown into a loving human being and have a positive effect on the world and those around him/her...AND to love and be a lifelong positive experience with the person who gave birth to them.

We always talk about a person's legacy. We describe people who ahve passed in terms of what they did for the fellow human being, how they changed the world, and how much love they had in their heart, how much they loved us, etc...We've all gone through that recently right here on the Forums. We also describe the living in similair terms...They're an amazing person, they are so caring, they ahve changed my life, I am a better person for knowing them, I dont know what I would do without them, etc...

How many people do not get the chance to be spoke of like this because of abortion. I personally KNOW of at least 2 of them

One of the girls I referred to in my previous post who used abortion as birth control was my high school sweetheart. "We" had 2 abortions (possibly 3, I cannot remember and that pains me), we both agreed on it, there was never any talk otherwise. We were using it as birth control. We were careless and wreckless in our actions, and we were unaware how these abortions would effect us in the future, and how much pain it would bring. Soon after these abortions she became pregnant again, there was some pushback from her regarding having an abortion again. Ultimately we were in the waiting room of the doctor mere minutes away from ending yet another "legacy" or life, when she was seen by the doctor she was told it was too late to have a legal abortion, too late by a few days..

A few months later my son was born. My son was the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me in my life, ever. He is a spitting image of me, we look like twins, he is my best friend (Im not jsut saying that), we talk daily. We love each other unbelievably. He is a professional firefighter/paramedic. As a rookie has already been commended on saving his captain in a working fire. On his days off he is a Vol. Firefighter, and as such he single handedly saved a person who had a self inflicted gunshot wound to the throat, today that person is happy to be alive. My son has impacted my life immensley, as well as those of the poeple around him. I never thought a man could be so proud as I am of my son. I already have a lifetime of wonderful memories with him. I Dont know what I would do without him

Why am i telling you this?

Because when I look in his eyes I remember how we were within days of "ending" the life he now has. It is an unimaginable pain today when I think about that he almost "wasnt". By aborting him then, I would ahve "killed" him today, for me it is no different than holding a gun to his head and pulling the trigger today.. There would be no legacy to look forward to, I would not have this joy I now ahve in my life, and a couple people may potentilally have lost their lives if my son had been aborted all those years back.

But what's even more unbearable for me is the souls we aborted before him. What about them? Who might they ahve been? How much more joy would be in my life today had we not aborted them? What different memories would I now have? What would they look like? Sometimes I see their faces (as I imagine they might look)The questions are endless... God how I wished they were here now. Just a few years back my ex and I got into a discussion about it, the first time we have ever talked about it, she broke down uncontrollably, she says she thinks about it often and cannot get over the pain....I myself still more than 20 years later still regret the decision we made, sometimes I still lay may head down at night and sometimes cry over it, I'm in pain right now as I type this. It's horrible, it makes me feel like a terrible person.. I know I will never get over it. Sometimes I feel like Im no better than Susan Smith who murdered her 2 boys (yes, rationally I know its different, but emotionally sometimes it's not)

The biggest regret of my life, that pains me often, all because we made a careless wreckless decision to abort them because we didnt use a condom. God forgive me....2 or 3 lost lives, lost legacies because we simply didnt use a condom...It just is not right, and frankly no one can tell me otherwise.

That's why I stand against abortion when used as birth control, the lost lives, the lost potential, the lost love, and the pain of those who chose to abort them. I am aware not everyone who goes through abortion has the same reaction I have, some can just go on and never think about the possibility that was there, some forget about the incident altogether, but I couldnt, my ex couldnt, and Im sure there are others out there who have the same burden over them and live with regret just as I do.

So there it is, that is my personal reason for being against abortion, and again, no one can tell me what I did was OK, or right. I know in my heart it was not.

I've never been an advocate of the death penalty because of the possibility of taking a single innocent life either accidently or as a result of the corruption that the OP alludes to.

However, I've also never understood the concepts of rehabilitation, prisoners' rights, continuing education and the like. When it costs more to house a single prisoner than many teachers and prison guards and other civil servants make in a single year, something is wrong with the system.

I believe that the risk of going to prison should be a deterrant and that the math related to sentencing should be made less complicated. If someone is sentenced to 10 years in prison, they should expect to be gone for somewhere around 3,650 days; a twenty year sentence should be roughly twice that. Time off for good behaviour?? That doesn't make sense. If the convicted had demonstrated good behaviour to begin with, they would have all the time in the world. Life is filled with decisions and people need to make a decision as to whether they want to be sent off to a work farm for 15 solid years or try to rob a filling station.

If we wrongly convict someone and they lose a portion of their life, I'm not sure how we, as a society, can adequately compensate them for that lost time. However, at least they are still alive and some type of an attempt can be made to overcome the mistake.

Good thing MLK's parents didn't think about abortion and of course Mary was an unmarried mom

Maybe Hitler's parents, and Stalin's should have thought about abortion.

Willywump, I understand why you feel bad about what happened with you and your ex. I myself have been through an abortion. Do I pain over it? Not really. At the time, it was the best decision I could have made. But either way, I don't feel that any government has the right to step in and start demanding to tell women what to do with their bodies. I could probably say more, but being that you kind of bared your soul, I won't. I respect your feelings. I believe we all have the right to our feelings, which means pro-choice as well. Sorry for your pain.

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I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

So there it is, that is my personal reason for being against abortion, and again, no one can tell me what I did was OK, or right. I know in my heart it was not.

-W

Will,

I'm so sorry for the pain you feel. Your story brought tears to my eyes. What struck me most though -- is that it appears that you haven't found a way to forgive yourself for what happened. While you may make a different decision today if faced with the same circumstance -- I'm sure that you made the best decision that you could at the time. It's in the past now and can't be undone. Much like many of us needed to find a way to forgive ourselves for our infection -- you need to find a way to forgive yourself, so that you can find peace.

Right now, in my mind, this has nothing to do with the politics of abortion -- it is about your pain and guilt. Personally, I find guilt to be a useless emotion, but one that is so difficult to get past. I really hope you can find someway to let this go and give yourself the chance to not live in the past.

Yikes, well this is a bit awkward, my intention was not to garner pity or compassion (or to bring this thread down in one fell swoop), I realize my post was abit of a Buzz kill. But my intent was to give some insight into what is behind my strong belief, and possibly others, that Abortion for birth control is abhorant. I'm aware that there are just as stong beliefs on the Pro-abortion side. Hence, the wider philosophical deadlock on the issue. At least we are agreeing on something, even if it is to disagree.

Although, there is definately something that I think we ALL can agree on and that is that Condoms are an amazing thing (for so many reasons)

I try to stay out of discussions on this topic, because they can be so polarizing. However, I completely agree with you, Will, and have been saying that for years. I can understand when "mistakes" are made or things don't work out, but when no attempts are made to preclude a pregnancy because "the doctor can always fix it", it makes me shudder a bit. Twenty three years ago, I was faced with making that decision and I'm elated everyday that we opted to have the child; despite all of the challenges it created. Everyone has to make their own decisions though...

No crickets sweetpea, I'm just still laying on the floor with my smelling salts that your gay ass produced three chilluns. And no, I didn't even know you had one that was allowed to mature.

What else are you hiding from me?

ps: while I appreciate your tidy anecdotes explaining your personal views towards the subject of abortion, I think it should be emphasized that what is one's opinion of what one would do if they could do things over should be separated from what one advocates as a public policy via the whims of the government. I don't want the government legislating where I can stick my dick, so it would seem to follow that I also don't think it's the place of government to tell a woman what to do with her own body.

I have to head out to the hustings shortly to hand out How To Vote cards on this Federal Election Day.

But before I do, I have to say that Wumpy's story, whilst touching and rather cleverly crafted, is not a particularly compelling argument on the abortion question. The point that Wump either misses or glosses over is that in his case, there was a right to choose. Just because it caused him pain doesn't mean it should be denied to others.

A woman should be entitled to accessible and safe abortions for whatever reason she chooses. Those reasons should be a matter for her and those she chooses to share them with.

That includes choosing to use abortion as a form of contraception. Her body, her choice.

No ifs, no buts. With the exception of affirming that right to choose any other views of men (even fags who've managed sire a couple of crotch trophies) should be viewed as irrelevant.

A woman should be entitled to accessible and safe abortions for whatever reason she chooses. Those reasons should be a matter for her and those she chooses to share them with.

That includes choosing to use abortion as a form of contraception. Her body, her choice.

No ifs, no buts. With the exception of affirming that right to choose any other views of men (even fags who've managed sire a couple of crotch trophies) should be viewed as irrelevant.

Amen. Thank you for phrasing this exactly the way that I feel about it.

Have fun with them elections.

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"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

But before I do, I have to say that Wumpy's story, whilst touching and rather cleverly crafted, is not a particularly compelling argument on the abortion question. The point that Wump either misses or glosses over is that in his case, there was a right to choose. Just because it caused him pain doesn't mean it should be denied to others.MtD

I agree, Matty. I don't believe, because of possible later regrets, that women should be forced to carry a child to term.

A woman should be entitled to accessible and safe abortions for whatever reason she chooses. Those reasons should be a matter for her and those she chooses to share them with.MtD

I totally agree with this also. Had I not had that option, it would have been a disaster. Every woman's case is individualized; therefore, no generalizations should be made (e.g. "a woman who got pregnant by choice should have to have the baby). No one knows exactly how that woman feels except, well, that woman.

No ifs, no buts. With the exception of affirming that right to choose any other views of men (even fags who've managed sire a couple of crotch trophies) should be viewed as irrelevant.

In agreement again. The woman is the one who is ultimately saddled with the 9 (or however long) month waiting period, etc. No man, or anyone else for that matter, can possibly know what exactly the pregnancy is doing to/for the woman emotionally, physically etc. I don't know if that makes sense.

I've had more than one abortion, and I can honestly say that none were done by haste. And living with that decision prior to and after the procedure can extremely uproot the emotions. The procedure itself is not pleasant, at all. Do I regret it? Hell no. Had I chose to go through with the pregnancies, well, it would not have been good.

Should I have thought about using condoms? Well, I suppose everyone on this forum should have thought about that, aye?

Better get the smelling salts out again P, ...as I have 2 boys, the second quite a bit younger (and from a different mother) than the one I depicted above. They are both AMAZING!

-Will

Lak omg... Mah boo is a breeder.

::faints::

Logged

"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

So why haven't you ever talked about them? I'm gonna have to require PIX-OR-IT-DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Oh, wait -- so it's more than one girl too? You heteroslut. Too bad you're not still a top with the boypussi.

It's a long line of girls, i dont know they just throw theirselves at me for some reason. But in the interest of full disclosure i havent been with a woman in over a decade, and even then Mr. Wee Willy had no intentions of "rising to the occasion" it was a rather "limpy" event. However to this day I'm hit on by mostly women *sigh*....I guess I need to queen it up a little more.

And, of course, I am going to have to defer from posting pics to protect the innocent.

Two, but that's ancient history (that I believe only you and Matty knew about; so thanks for outing me, byotch And we didn't procreate. Neither one of them liked chirrens and I only find the little critters to be cute from afar.

Logged

"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Two, but that's ancient history (that I believe only you and Matty knew about; so thanks for outing me, byotch And we didn't procreate. Neither one of them liked chirrens and I only find the little critters to be cute from afar.

One of the girls I referred to in my previous post who used abortion as birth control was my high school sweetheart. "We" had 2 abortions (possibly 3, I cannot remember and that pains me), we both agreed on it, there was never any talk otherwise. We were using it as birth control. We were careless and wreckless in our actions, and we were unaware how these abortions would effect us in the future, and how much pain it would bring. Soon after these abortions she became pregnant again, there was some pushback from her regarding having an abortion again. Ultimately we were in the waiting room of the doctor mere minutes away from ending yet another "legacy" or life, when she was seen by the doctor she was told it was too late to have a legal abortion, too late by a few days..

How do you not remember whether you had 2 or 3 abortions? Not being smartass, but just curious.

I completely understand where you are coming from on this. Well, not exactly. I had unprotected sex with girls and actually had to do a paternity test. The child wasn't mine. However, my partner's sister offered us her unborn baby when I was about 21. We spent sleepless nights thinking about it. We came to the decision that we just weren't ready. We also saw problems down the road with her possibly asking for the child back. We really didn't think she'd go through with the abortion. But, she did. That has haughted us ever since. That child would be about 13 now. And, we would actually like a child now.

Having said that, I would never try to make decisions for others just because it caused us grief and sorrow.

How do you not remember whether you had 2 or 3 abortions? Not being smartass, but just curious.

Not sure it's a valid question Tedders given the bigger scheme of things. What does the number of abortions I had have to do with the the argument as a whole? But since I posted it I'll answer it the best way I can.

They all happened in a short period of time, it was a blur, we were 2 young, careless, dumb kids. Also it was quite easy to get an abortion, looking back it was way too easy. You merely made an appt and got together a couple hundred dollars went in and after an hour or so you walked out the other side. There was no counseling, there were no lines of protesters to walk through. It was TOO easy. We had other things to worry about than to keep track of the abortions we had, there were the parties on saturday night, etc.. We were hell unleashed, and we should have been stopped HELLO CONDOMS), but we werent. We were merely 2 ignorant kids. So I guess the best answer I ahve to your questions is the ease of it all made it a non-issue for us, and as a non-issue we didnt keep track or dwell on it....until later.

Had there been some obstacles in place, had it not been quite so easy, then perhaps we would have had no abortions (and had Abortions not been available then we definately would have not had any abortions).

We used the argument "having an abortion was the right thing for us at the time", we were young, I had college ahead of me, "we shouldnt be burdened with a child in our situation", etc.. All these reasonings were valid to us at the time, however they were proved wrong as my son was born within a year of these abortions. When he was born we were still young (I was 18), still had college ahead, etc...Yeah it was hard, I was terrified, I couldnt party with my friends anymore because I was woking 2 jobs and going to college, she had to take a job at a daycare so she could watch my son and bring in some much needed money. It was anything but easy, but we did it, I made it through college and all that. I think it was during this time that it dawned on us that we were terribly wrong in my flippant attitude that we couldnt be burdened with bringing a human being into the world at such a young age, when in fact having a child (even though it was tough) would turn out to be the most amazing time of our lives that we are still living today.

The majority of us on these forums will not have unprotected sex with neggies because we know the ramifications of spreading HIV. The populace as a whole needs to understand the ramifications of having unprotected sex (wow I could have a baby) and use some sort of protection on the front end, not use abortion as birth control on the back end.

Look, I know Im in the minority here in my views, and I more than realize that my argument doesnt apply across the board. I get the "Keep the govt out of my body", But why do we even have to get to the point of keeping the govt out of our bodies? We can keep the government out of our bodies by using condoms, the pill, etc...We need to understand that having unprotected sex MAY resort in an unwanted child! and a 99cent condom or the pill can prevent the need to have an abortion.