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OK Marty, let's go over this one more time, because you always insist on replying with the same defense of your original comments. The specific comment that you made, which is TOTALLY inaccurate, is:

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Your Kawai RX has a composite action. The Kawai piano actions are known for being unaffected by humidity changes. "Sticky keys" generally are not a problem due to changes in RH with Kawai pianos

Now, from a technical standpoint, let's analyze why I have a problem with this SPECIFIC part of your response. You state that the Kawai RX has a composite action. True enough, BUT, they still use felt bushings in the composite wippens, AND they still use wooden hammer shanks with felt bushings, all of which are just as susceptible to RH changes as traditional action parts. Secondly, Kawai actions DO NOT have composite keys.....they are WOOD, with felt balance rail and front rail bushings, which are most often the source of STICKY KEYS....which was what was being addressed in the original thread. So, I did not take you "out of context", I simply focused on the specific inaccuracies and faulty information you were conveying to the original poster. Lastly, no where on the Kawai website page where they describe the benefits of the Millenium action do they claim anything about the parts being "unaffected by humidity changes", as YOU claim. Do you know something Kawai doesn't about their product?

The hammer will probably have some play in the glue joint and can often be pulled apart with just the fingers. If it doesn't come apart easily, special tools may be needed.

If it is the pinning, (the sounds are remarkably similar) there may be no other symptoms but the hammer assembly may have some play side to side. If the centre pin is actually coming out, you will see the pin shining between the flanges.

Thanks rxd. I pulled back the action (without taking it out of the piano) and could gain access to the hammer butt and flange easily enough. The flange screw is tight, as are the others around it. The hammer shank doesn't appear loose either (at either end), or at least there is no more 'play' in it than in those around it. As for the centre pin, I couldn't get near enough to it even see if it might be loose. The tech is scheduled to visit Friday evening, so perhaps he will see something I can't.

First; the unison is out. Second; before you do anything, re-glue the hammer head to the shank. It can be tight on the shank and still click. This slight movement throws off the hammer head alignment. Third; check that the strings are level and then that the hammer is mated to the to the leveled strings.

Thanks Dave B. There are limits to what I am prepared (=able competently and with confidence) to do to the piano, and re-glueing a hammer head is one of these. (See also above regarding the centre-pin.) I have a concert and recording tech booked in for January and I'll leave these kind of things to him. Given that he has been specifically identified for doing a full toning, I'd be surprised if he doesn't pay attention to such matters. Of course, if you are right, I'll be stuck with the 'smacking' until then, or until the head does become very loose from additional playing.

To add another perspective to what's already been written: if this were my situation, I'd consider changing to another tuner. In my opinion, given that the tuning is only a few days old, the quality of all those unisons (with the possible exception of the fourth one, A5) leaves something to be desired, especially G#5 and A#5.

Thanks Mark. Unfortunately I have become used to the piano going out of tune rapidly, hence 5 tunings in 5 months--('new strings' and all that ...)-- so I'm not inclined to criticise the tuner, at least for now. Yes, the recording is a mere 72 hours after the tuning was finished, and the original post on the 'metallic' resonance was taken perhaps 5 days (max) after its previous tuning. A different tuner was involved in each case, and there was very little playing done in the intervening period, perhaps a couple of hours in total at most. In each case the humidity levels have been very constant (fluctuating between 39 and 44%RH over the period in question), so I am stuck with the (seemingly forever) 'stretching strings' hypothesis for now ... :-(

Shouldn't "technical theory and pop-quiz" questions be in the Tuner/Tech Forum? There is plenty of bickering over there and we don't need it in Piano Forum.

You're right Marty. There is ample bickering already in the Piano Forum, to which you yourself are not an insignificant contributor. Yet, threads have a life of their own, and I'm actually finding the ensuing discussion to be fascinating and enlightening. Certainly much more so than a dreary debate over who can say what (and how) in which forum. And to judge by Rick's contributions, even a PW moderator appears to be taking an interest in the topic, rather than taking a swipe at somebody.

The new symptom is a 'smacking" sound.It started AFTER his tuner-tech "...did some surface filing of the hammers...".Of course I can't state with certainty that this is the case, but there might well be a link between that recent hammer filing and the new noises.

Thanks Andrew. I think you may well be on to something here. My first suspicion was bad/mis filing, but your suggestion that the act of filing may have loosened the hammer sounds very plausible. It would certainly help explain the timing of the problem, even if there was a couple of hours of (smack-free) playing before the problem arose.

Originally Posted by Seeker

Regarding the wobbly unisons -- they wobbled after this latest tuning; they wobbled on the original recordings posted by PNO40. In both cases (as I recall, and I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong), the recordings were made within a few days to a few weeks after the tuning. Unless the pins are loose on this piano, OR there were significant temperature and humidity swings, OR a lot of heavy playing done, I would expect the piano to be better in tune than it sounded in the recordings.

Not to offend, but, at this point, if it were my call, it would be to the local PTG chapter looking for another technician.

Thanks again Andrew. I noted above that the tuning stability is p155 poor, and that I am left clinging to the 'still stretching strings' explanation. The original recording was taken 3-5 days after tuning No.4, the second recording was take 73 hours after tuning No. 5. Each was by a different tuner. Temperature and humidity have been pretty constant, with RH swings of no more than 5% and temperature swings of 3-4 degrees in any 24 hour period and typically only 1 or 2 degrees different between what are my 'playing windows' on any give day. As for for frequent hard playing, since the arrival of my family of 'zings', the playing and practice repertoire has been kept to the extremely gentle end of the spectrum. Finally, as for the pins, the first tech's first visit involved him complimenting the torque on the pins: he was surprised to find them so snug given the age of the pin block.

Well, I was hoping that on a forum such as this, there would be an opportunity to comment on the quality (or possible shortage thereof) of a tuning that is only a few days old - in the interest of striving for the best possible service to the OP. But if I offended anyone or confused the issue by commenting on something that was not asked for by the OP, I apologise for my part in any "red herring".

Mark,

Many thanks for your observations. To have somebody critique a tuning is, I think, always of benefit to the recipient (even if it can be somewhat disheartening). An extra set of ears is not to be sniffed at, and even if it doesn't imply switching tech-tuner, it can help the client to get the best out of him/her by enabling the client to give critical feedback. For what it is worth, I don't actually think this tuning was as thorough as the previous tunings--I noticed it myself in some lower tenor chords--but given the state of the piano before his work, I was thankful to have something playable once more, even if there was/is room for improvement.

As for rxd's 'preach at your peril' maxim, I think this is highly laudable, and would love for it to be observed more thoroughly on PW--not least for the fact that it might actually reduce the volume of sermons some contributors seem to have a weakness for giving ...

The new symptom is a 'smacking" sound.It started AFTER his tuner-tech "...did some surface filing of the hammers...".Of course I can't state with certainty that this is the case, but there might well be a link between that recent hammer filing and the new noises.

Thanks Andrew. I think you may well be on to something here. My first suspicion was bad/mis filing, but your suggestion that the act of filing may have loosened the hammer sounds very plausible. It would certainly help explain the timing of the problem, even if there was a couple of hours of (smack-free) playing before the problem arose.

It's going from bad to worse, folks ... :-(

Soon after posting the above, I sat down to try to play the piano (as opposed to opening it up to diagnose another problem) and within a few minutes discovered another 'smacking' note, this time in the mid tenor range and amongst those notes that the tech-tuner worked on with some surface filing. (Fsharp above middle C) "Andrew may well be right", I thought, "the tech may well have loosened the hammers in the course of pulling the back and filing them. I'll mention this to him when I see him tomorrow".

Yet brave soul that I am, I nevertheless carried on playing regardless, trying to ignore my latest percussive accompaniment. After about 10 minutes, the bass section apparently felt left out and decided to join in the act, as Efalt20 began to join in with its own miniature snare drum effect. However, to my knowledge, the tuner did not go near the bass section when filing, which makes me think I am looking at a more systematic (and serious) problem. The words 'lemon', 'warranty' and 'refund' are now beginning to knock round my head. What fun!! (At this point, I can only laugh as it is hard to weep when things start getting this absurd.)

To my best recollection, this is the first time you've mentioned this, and I think it is something that none of us (including rxd, with all due respect to an old hand) could have anticipated - given that you spoke of "the tuner" each time, and of having "him" come back. To me, this new bit of information certainly places your previous postings in a different light.

Be that as it may, I'm not putting my upbringing, education or (alleged lack of) principles up for a second public flogging, so I'll be bowing out of this thread while I still have legs to run with.

I wish you all the best with your Blüthner. (Have you spoken to the rebuilder about these things?)

To my best recollection, this is the first time you've mentioned this, and I think it is something that none of us (including rxd, with all due respect to an old hand) could have anticipated - given that you spoke of "the tuner" each time, and of having "him" come back. To me, this new bit of information certainly places your previous postings in a different light.

Hi Mark: The story of tuner no.1 and the arrival of the new tuner (no.2) was told in the original post, but for clarification in this post the situation is as follows: The first four tunings were all by the same tech-tuner, who proved unresponsive to my queries after the metallic 'zingy' sounds subsequent to his (fourth) tuning and began to intimate that it was all in my head when I eventually chased him down and solicited his opinion. This was what prompted the change of tech-tuner who undertook the 5th tuning which preceded the 'smacking' problem.

Originally Posted by Mark R.

I wish you all the best with your Blüthner. (Have you spoken to the rebuilder about these things?)

The rebuilder has so far been trying to downplay the problems ("No piano is perfect. Can't hear anything wrong with the (metallic) sound. If you look for an imperfection, you will find it" etc, etc), but I have recently assembled the catalogue of problems that have surfaced in a mere 5 months to remind him that I am spending as much time trouble-shooting the piano as actually playing it. It's on the verge of becoming a less than pleasant relationship, though.

Either way, thanks for your contributions and good wishes. The latter I will need if this to have a half-way happy ending.

I was responding to a few consecutive posts in general that seemed to me to be jumping to premature conclusions. Nothing Personal was intended. Thank you for pointing out the backstory. I had stopped reading that one for the same reasons I responded to this one. My apologies. I enjoy your well informed posts.

Thank you for the link to your original statement about Kawai actions.

While not directly concerned with this thread, it is a matter arising.

The millennium 3 action, at least the recent ones I have seen have cloth bushings in all the same places as its wooden counterpart and is subject to all the same humidity caused problems.

I have recently been called to two of them that have action bushings that have slowed down enough to create both non playing notes (slow jack bushings) and sticking keys (tight key bushings). I recommended a whole house control system as a very cost effective option.

I am surprised at the number of people who casually accepted what you said as gospel. This is a testament to believable advertising.

There is a lot of confusion with the other currently produced action that is made from similar materials but has important differences. Ed Foote has started a recent excellent thread on this very subject that will help clear up some of the understandable uncertainty.

I understand that there are many points of friction within a piano action which can cause sluggishness or even sticking of various keys. My answer was a general response to a member who was interested in using a Dampp Chaser, referenced by her tech, to solve the problem. When read in its entirety, my answer indicated that the D-C system was not necessarily the solution and the problem needed to be investigated further. My suggestion was to contact a qualified technician to carefully examine the action, after three years of use on a new instrument, and that it might be time for a full regulation. That way, all of the issues would be addressed.

As far as the composit action is concerned, I stand by my statement. With a wood action, all of the components are affected by humidity changes and this can put additional pressure on all of the bushings. This exacerbates the apparent problems. I never stated that the Kawai actions were immune to the problem, only that the chances of humidity being the sole source of the problem was lessened and further analysis was needed.

I live in a climate with four distinct seasons and wide differences in climatic dewpoint. In Nov-Dec, and then again in May-June, the effects of the climate have a great effect on pianos. Guess which pianos have the least ammount of problems with the action? Yep, the Kawais and Shigerus. This is not just my observation, but is also shared by other teachers in this area.

Of course those instruments are subject to the same mechanical problems as any other. I am well aware of it. Remember, this whole discussion occured in a different thread and the use of a Dampp Chaser is not even in consideration within the topic of this thread. It is important to read the question of the OP and then read my reply within the context of what was being asked. I was using very general terms to respond to someone who wanted to hear the experience of others. That is how I responded, with my own experience.

To suddenly incur the caustic and derogatory wrath from you, and others, concerning my opinion and experience is beyond my comprehension. Can you, or anyone, flatly state that I gave bad or injurious advice to the OP in that thread? Would a D-C system solve the problem that was expressed?

I never stated that the Kawai actions were immune to the problem, only that the chances of humidity being the sole source of the problem was lessened and further analysis was needed

Really?

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The Kawai piano actions are known for being unaffected by humidity changes. "Sticky keys" generally are not a problem due to changes in RH with Kawai pianos

Again, please show us where on the Kawai website are any of these claims being made?

As far as "bickering", let's just say I have less tolerance for people who profess to know what they are talking about and offer advice that will only mislead others. You have no right to make claims that even the manufacturer is not comfortable with making. Finally, you had no basis for calling rxd and myself out with this snide retort:

Quote

Shouldn't "technical theory and pop-quiz" questions be in the Tuner/Tech Forum? There is plenty of bickering over there and we don't need it in Piano Forum

I went north yesterday and so did this topic along with the piano. The traffic was awful and there were endless "Don't drink and drive" signs along the motorway in the hope everyone will have a happy Christmas. All of which made me think of a pink gin or two.

We digress.

In summary the OP wants his piano to sound like a Bluthner but after its restoration, five tunings, two tuners, umpteen posts and some red herrings is that goal any closer?

Stating the obvious, solutions become clear when problems are clearly identified. Sometimes a problem turns out to be something no one thought of, such as some loose pressure bar screws, the ones you should never touch.

Often the best way to find such a problem is have a good furkle around. The Bluthner expert appears to be the best person to do that when he comes next month to voice the piano.

Meanwhile the question at the back of my mind is what would cause a piano to go out of tune immediately after every tuning when the pins are OK and the plate bolts and screws are tight?

A freshly restrung piano can be a monster to tune with any degree of finesse, particularly if the tuning pins are extremely tight and the coils, beckets, seating, etc are not dealt with effectively. This newness eventually settles down but, until that happens, the tuner not experienced with these particular circumstances will have a tough time of it.

It makes matters much easier if the piano is tuned higher than normal and allowed to lose some of its pitch with each tuning as all factories do. To keep on having to restore pitch with each tuning compounds all the problems. A tuner only experienced in older pianos, as the vast majority are, is not necessarily going to understand this. Sometimes the top 2 sections of a concert piano are restrung while it is on service. It takes a lot of skill to keep these pianos in tune even when it is done by a full time stringer, the results stabilise quickly.

It is a learning curve with each tuner. We will note that the last tuning we heard was done by another tuner and it wasn't as tight as the tuning on the video before it To bring in another tuner just when the piano is getting settled and the tuner is learning the ways of this particular restringing did not appear to help.

Years ago, pianos spent months in the factory in store rooms during this settling period before they were offered for sale. You could stand in the store room and hear them going out of tune. Very few tuners have much experience of absolutely freshly strung pianos unless they do a lot of rebuilding. Even then, it is not the same as the experience of a tuner who has spent time in a factory tuning hundreds of newly strung pianos.

Judging by what we eventually learned, the piano was not tuned higher than normal to start with and it was probably released to the customer prematurely. I'm not sure whether the first tuner is one and the same as the person who did the restringing.

I have a lot of experience with these old Blüthners as a staff tuner and later, technician. There was a way of regulating the tone that takes some skill but is very much misunderstood these days. It produces a roundness and tone colour that is very beautiful and long lasting but not fashionable today.

There were some anomalies in the narrative. First we were told the hammers were recovered then we were told they were replaced. This can be put down to misunderstanding of terminology but it helps destroy my faith in understanding exactly the situation here. There are examples of poor string spacing in the photographs but this might be to compensate for possible unequal split wedge dampers that couldn't be seen in the photo. Uneven split wedges are common, particularly when parts come by mail order and are not selected so it isn't possible to point to this as evidence of sloppy work. I have my suspicions but, as we all point out on this forum, it's impossible to know unless we are in the presence of the piano. We don't know the local economics and the local value of a used upright and whether it is worth putting much into them.

It is surprising to find many tuners at all on an island in the North Atlantic. / ( ('U') I ; I\Γ U U

UPDATE: Thanks to all those who diagnosed looseness in the hammer butt flange as the source of the 'smack' sound. My tech (No. 2) came two days ago and loosened and retightened the hammer butt flange screw on the problematic hammers and the problem was resolved.

However, the following day, similar sounds appeared on other hammers and following his lead (and the suggestion of Dave B if I remember correctly) I went to loosen and retighten the appropriate screw only to find many of the flanges themselves to be loose on the action rail. I don't have the tools to re-secure these, but am I right in thinking that if the hammer butt flanges are loose on the rail, and even if not quite loose enough to generate the 'smacking' sound, that they could be in part responsible for tonal problems, particularly at mezzoforte and above when the hammer travels faster and hits the strings harder, thus placing more strain on the flange and allowing the hammer to 'shift' and wobble both en route to the strings and upon contact with the strings?

As you might guess, I'm looking for the silver linings in the various clouds generated by my piano ...

A freshly restrung piano can be a monster to tune with any degree of finesse, particularly if the tuning pins are extremely tight and the coils, beckets, seating, etc are not dealt with effectively. This newness eventually settles down but, until that happens, the tuner not experienced with these particular circumstances will have a tough time of it.

rxd: What do you recommend in these circumstances?

Originally Posted by rxd

I have a lot of experience with these old Blüthners as a staff tuner and later, technician. There was a way of regulating the tone that takes some skill but is very much misunderstood these days. It produces a roundness and tone colour that is very beautiful and long lasting but not fashionable today.

Could you drop me a PM in connection with this, please?

Originally Posted by rxd

It is surprising to find many tuners at all on an island in the North Atlantic.

I guess that depends on the island. I'll admit though, that there are more on yours than on mine ...

PNO40,At this stage, I would take the piano up to 442 and have it tuned as often as it seems to need using the tuner who does the concert work who will most likely be familiar with tight pins. With these pianos there is good string 'follow' because there is no pressure bar so good pin setting is essential.

Many are afraid of 442 and some give 'artistic' reasons. All professional musicians know how to handle 442-3, particularly international musicians. By that reasoning, so should an amateur with any aspirations. I say thi in case the instrument is to be used in ensemble. I have not known one of these Blüthner frames that have been unable to take the tension. Anybody out there has??

The advanced voicing techniques I only teach hands on to people whose skills I know. Your Blüthner expert, depending on when their Blüthner training was, will b familiar with what I'm talking about.

I never think of my country as an island in the Norh Atlantic but, of course, you are right, it is. The notion of lonely and windswept is mostly a poetic one.

Sorry for chiming in late, it seems like some have correctly diagnosed your problem. My pianos have suffered similar problems, due to continual dry/humid/dry/humid transitions. The hammer head comes loose from the shank. It doesn't feel this way, but you have to remove the assembly and really work to get the hammer off of the shank (there are specific tools a good technician will have for this) and then reglue the hammer to the shank. It won't seem obviously loose but you will find you can work the hammer to and from the 90 degree position back and forth a bit to verify. This is what is causing the click sound. Has happened on my old upright, my newly restored Ibach and my almost 10 year old Grotrian.