Schubert, Gott ist mein Hirt

What an amazing resource is Choralist, and what generous people you areto share your thoughts! Forgive this compilations length, but I wantedto do justice to each persons responses.

--------------------QUESTION: should one adhere strictly to the dotted rhythms throughoutSchuberts Gott ist mein Hirt, or should one allow the singers toalign with the triplets in the accompaniment?--------------------

More than half the responses said stick with the rhythms exactly asnotated. The other 40% suggested various sources calling for softeninginto the triplet feel. Several people indicated their own feelingabout how they might interpret something, but then sometimes were quitefirm about the Schubert. My own feeling is that there are some placeswhere the text is simply too pastoral to need the pull of tripletsagainst dotted rhythms, or even to allow it, and the singers willcommunicate the spirit of the Psalm more profoundly by a triplet feel.Perhaps the variety of responses have given me the courage to experiment more.

There were more responses than I have listed below, but many said simplyGood question. I have no idea. Let me know the responses.

I feel personally that making a musically satisfying performance comesfirst, while still trying to honor the composer's intent - so I thinkyou should try to get them to stick to the dotted rhythm, and perhapsback the accompaniment off so it's not competing with the singers I reject No. 2 one way or the other, since I don't think it makes muchof a difference what somebody did historically. If you are intoauthentic or period performance practice, you would certainly disagreewith me My ten cents

John Helgen Minneapolis --------------------- Do not allow them to alter the rhythm; the richness of the threeagainst four is a key component of the texture. It's your job to teachit. A Patrick Gardner technique which works beautifully is this: havesingers tap the pulse of the dotted rhythm on their collarbones as theysing. Be sure you have taught them on which pulse to move. You may needto drill it this way minus accompaniment at first. When they're solid,add accompaniment, but keep them tapping until it's locked. Use thistechnique to refresh anytime it needs to be cleaned up. Years ago Iqueried a fine conductor with whom I did a practicum, "Do you thinkthey'll be ready to perform this?" His response, "Can you teach it tothem?"

Constance Chase Director, Cadet Glee Club US Military Academy West Point, NY 10996 --------------------- When I accompanied it as a high school student, my director (himself agood pianist) insisted that I play the dotted rhythms distinctly apartfrom the triplets. And the first couple of times I conducted it as anadult, I made sure my accompanist did the same.

I no longer feel that way. It sounds much less stilted if the dotted rhythms are done like secondary forms of the triplet--like "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" in the G. Schirmer edition.

This question was posed last year on this list. As I recall, the end result was that it was left "up in the air" as a matter of opinion.

I HAVE heard world-reknowned lieder singers say that the triplet version should be used--that microscopically accurate dotted rhythms sound "silly." I now agree. The piece flows so much more smoothly that way.

So, I would say, do it the way it sounds best to YOU.

David Tovey Associate Professor School of Music Ohio State University ------------------------I think you've asked a great question. Why would someone in Schubert'stime go to the trouble of writing it different ways, yet at the sametime, why would he want to hear it distinctly dif ferently?

I'd love to hear what you find out.

Micki Gonzalezmickimg(a)aol.com---------------------- There is no reason for not following the path of least resistance inthis case. Schubert often used this method of notation (as Bach did) tonotate triplet rhythms. I did some research into this a number of yearsago (I can't remember what sources I used for the life of me) as I wasrunning into problems with the Schubert Fantasia for piano duet...whatdo you do with the notation??

In other words, I believe your singers are on the right track. Inother words, capitulate and use the K.I.S.S. principle.

Norman I.Reintamm Dirigent Estonian National Opera Chairman, Dante Alighieri Society in Estonia norman(a)teleport.ee ------------------ I have had the same concern for years, everytime we have done this. Itry valiantly to separate the two as in Schubert's day, those kinds ofcross rhythms were common. Look at Brahms, for example, although more"Romantic," it has many examples. Some of the Schubert and Schumann artsongs do as well.

What your singers are doing is natural but I am always resistant to"give in" - eventually mine have mostly succeeded by singing what theysee instead of resorting to singing by ear.

{my reaction: That's a good question, but jazz musicians do too, yetthey save time and ink by writing 2 eights when they mean atriplet/swing feel. With all the discussion about "swinging" the dottedrhythms in some baroque music, I wonder if it is as clear as justreading the ink on the page.}

Dougs response: Schubert knew nothing of Jazz. Furthermore, why would he writetriplets in one part and dotted rhythms in another voice? Bach has thesame problem. I think he knew the difference..... It is like takingfast 4/4 in two. Composers know the difference. ------------------ My Women's Choir learned this piece this semester and, like you, Istayed with the dotted rhythm as opposed to relaxing into triplets. I'm afraid I can offer no answer to your very good question, other thanthat's the way Schubert wrote it. To me, maintaining the dotted rhythmoffers a certain accent to the vocal text at that point when setagainst the constant triplet accompaniment.

(too humble to let me use her name, but I quoted her anyway) --------------------- If you look at the accompaniment, there are many spots where one handplays 8th-note rhythms against the other hand's triplets, which seems tocarry over between piano/vocal. Piano literature from this period alsohas triplet vs. 8th-note patterns, Brahms in particular.

Vicki Wilson ------------------------ This is a question I've warred with for several years - however, lastyear when I conducted the work with the ACDA's Women's Honour Choir inChicago (200 women all trying to match 16th notes?), I knew I had tohave a definitive answer. I conferred with my trusted universitySchubert scholar, vocal coach and accompanying expert in lieder - shesaid to go with what would be the most musical solution....hence I toldthe women to use the triplet. It worked beautifully and I don't thinkSchubert would have minded at all. There were a few spots that Iinsisted on rhythm as written - eighth note pick-ups, etc. where themusical sense or text dictated it - otherwise we 'went with the flow'and it sang most convincingly. I also had to defend this same decisionlast year at the IFCM World Symposium on Choral Music in Rotterdam. Noone huffed and puffed their way out of the room when I startedexplaining ...in fact, there seemed to be a real sigh of relief andaccord about the 'more musical' decision and I think most of thescholarly types who were there agreed that my solution was acceptable.

Hope that helps. Not that I knew him, but I think Schubert would wantyou to do what's most musical, too...:)

Diane Loomer ------------------------ This is a topic for which I have considerable interest. I have collected some information that I feel would prove to be a fruitful opportunity for an "internet seminar." What I would like to do is postthe question, supply some copies of some source material on a web siteand then announce a time for people to share thoughts over a 24-48 hour period.

Some of the pertinent information - in the Peters edition of "Winterreise" edited by Fischer-Dieskau and musicologist Elmar Budde talks specifically about songs No. 5, 6 and 9 which have the same triplet accomodation problem, i.e., "Wasserflut" where the voice singstriplet 1/8ths against a dotted 1/8th and 1/16th in the piano. Buddesuggests that these should be rhythmically aligned.

While this makes for a simple and easy solution - to consider that this should become some universal rule in the early Romantic period would mean that we must then accept the triplet vs. dotted figure at the opening of the "Moonlight" sonata of Beethoven would then need to be assimilated. This is something which I do not advocate. While Ithink that the musical context should have a great deal to do in makingthis as a judgement call...I, too would like more specific and reasonedopinions from the musicologists before I go much further.

Evidently there was some discussion in Early Music or another journal a couple of years ago regarding the new complete works of Schubert which centered on this very topic. ... I will see if I can locate the citation.

David Otis Castonguay Director of Choral Activities Radford University ---------------- As I understand it (from a class with Erich Leinsdorf): 1. Change the dotted notes to triplets in a folk idiom 2. Change the dotted notes to triplets at any time instead of wastinghours of reahearsal time on getting it right -- boy, have I mellowed in my old age! Ron Kean ---------------------- My understanding, for which I have no actual authority, is that thedotted rhythms in the voice parts are supposed to accommadatethemselves to the triplets, not "fight" them. I have performed thepiece this way, and it works well, although it's difficult for me as asinger to read the "intent" of the rhythms instead of their reality onthe page. It seems to me that John Rutter, in his "European SacredMusic" collection, has given some guidance on this piece, but my copyof it is at school, not home.

Ann Foster -----------------------I'm not familiar with the Schubert piece but I would think that as aclassical composer Schubert intended that it be 3 against 4. I justrehearsed the second word of "Seven Last Words of Christ" by Dubois andall through that movement the pianist is playing 2 against 3. In thefirst measure of that movement on the 3rd beat there are triplets in theleft hand and a dotted eighth-sixteenth in the right hand. The effectwould be lost if the pianist changed that rhythm to triplets, especiallysince the tenor solo echos that rhythm in measure 18.

Maybe it's because I am primarily an instrumentalist, but I expect myaccompanist to play that rhythm accurately. Yes it is harder but theeffect is terrific when done accurately. Any conductor of a group ofclassically trained instrumentalists would expect them to play thatrhythm accurately. Why do we expect less from our singers?

The dotted-eighth is probably the most difficult rhythm to teach and.spend a good bit of time teaching my flute students how to subdivideand think sixteenth notes so that they can play it accurately inclassical music. However, I also teach them that in jazz and pop stylesthe rhythm is played like three triplets with the first two tied. Whycan't we do the same for our singers?

Debbie GilbertMusic DirectorManassas St. Thomas UMC ----------------------- I'd be interested in your responses, because I have fought the sametendency myself. I have never heard a performance of the piece in whichthe choir did not sing the triplets with the piano, including the ACDANational Children's Honor Chorus directed by Anton Armstrong. Ifpossible could you compile the responses and post to the list? THanks.

Cheryl Dupont, Artistic Director NEw Orleans CHildren's CHorus and Youth Chorale Interim Director of Choirs, University of New Orleans -----------------------If you were talking about 18th century music, I'd say that rhythmsweren't wrtitten as performed but I doubt very much that if Schubertwanted triplets, he would have writtendotted rhythms. Could be that it's the original German language itselfthat sounded good ti Schubert in the dotted rhythms. I wouldn't change them.Maybe you have the pianist play for a few rehearsals in the dottedrhythms to match the singers, and then once the singers have caught on,the pianist could revert to the triplets.

Joan YakkeyFlorence, Italy-------------------------I've sung under a number of choral conductors, including Robert Shaw,who drilled interminably and insisted that we sing the 4 against 3 withmathematical precision. I could never see why it was so important. Itdrives the singers cross-eyed and doesn't impress anyone in theaudience, other than the occasional incognito choral conductor.

Did the composers really expect the singers to render these complexcross rhythms with conscientious accuracy, or were they just taking anotational shortcut and assuming the performers would know to smooththings out?

Jazz singers know better than to adhere slavishly to what's printed onthe page in front of them. Why must classical singers be so anally precise?

With sincere curiosity,Nick JonesProgram AnnotatorAtlanta Symphony Orchestra----------------------I'm working on this piece right now with a group and I am having themwork on the 2 against 3. I know that there is controversy about it, butI believe Schubert, unlike Bach and Baroque practice, really meant whathe wrote. Brahms writes this situation many times and we wouldn't meshthem together. In the Schubert, I believe it creates a certain tensionthat maybe Schubert intended to express the tension between life anddeath, between the "valley of death" and "fear no evil", between painand comfort. Just some thoughts.

Dr. Carroll J. LehmanDirector of Choral/Vocal ActivitiesKeene State College----------------------I feel the comparison of jazz to "classical" music in a discussion ofwritten notation and performance practice to be somewhat weak. I am apractitioner of both forms of music. Jazz is at its essenceimprovisatory, the other tradition, with notable exceptions (continuowork, cadenzas and ornamentation) is not. The battle rages on inbaroque music over double dots and triple meter short hand in thechorus. I just conducted Israel in Egypt and made the chorus parts"agree" with the orchestral triplets under them. I also double dottedthe chorus in similar situations, against the opinion of greatmusicologists like Alfred Mann--my own teacher. However, in Schubert, I think we should execute the rhythm as notated. His piano literatureis filled with 2 against 3 as is his song literature. I'm sure thereis a dissertation out there which explores this phenomenon and its use.In jazz compositions these days, I'm seeing more exact notation of the composer's precise intentions. I think the same evolution which tookplace in "classical" music is taking place in jazz as the repertoireand language of jazz continues to expand; there are too many options ofinterpretation to leave it open to "tradition". Two of my favoritebalancing quotes; "The sin against the spirit of the work always beginswith a sin against its letter" Igor Stravinsky "It would be anillusion to think that one can set down on paper the things thatconstitute the beauty of the performance." Liszt

A "precise" 2 against 3 is not so difficult as to dismiss it as unplayable/singable. The Schubert Psalm 23 has two characters theflowing water (triples in the piano) and the sheep and shepherd walkingbeside the stream. Teach the chorus the larger rhythmic pulse and makesure the piano in "flowing" not beating out the pattern. Rehearse thechorus unaccompanied (and without text, as text will finitely alter therhythm) so they can be in their rhythm. Then put it all together. Solong as the conductor indicates the beat and not subdivisions of thebeat, it should be an enjoyable walk beside a stream. I don't thinkthe listener will be impressed, just affected by the mysteriousemotional response to the genius of Schubert's gift.

Don RichardsonWashington, DC----------------------Agreed completely, Gott is mein Hirt is a wonderful piece. I wouldavoid both battles fighting with the singers for a 1-e-+-a exactitude,OR letting them iron out the dotted patterns into triplets. Instead, asI consider the score, Schubert clearly wants a 2 vs 3 effect at times. I see the dotted patterns as either an "ornamentation/intensification"of the eighth motion, or as a very gentle passing-tone motion. So Itell the singers to go for the long note of the dotted pattern, and topass quickly and lightly over the short note. That way, they don'tthump the short note, or do it in an exaggerated "double-dot" fashion. The tempo is marked adagio, but I usually go for a kind of "andante nontroppo" -- keeping it moving, so that it sounds like lines, not likeblock chords. There seems to be a "groove" where the piano tripletmotion complements rther than fights with the vocal dotted patterns. Maybe I do it too fast, but if so, only a little. Anyway, give thisapproach a try.

Brooks Grantier, The Battle Creek Boychoir, Battle Creek, MI

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