Philbb:Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.

Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone 'by accident' you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can call for help.

Don't forget: Honesty is the best policy. If you have every intention of having sex later on with the woman you're dating regardless of how she feels about it, tell her directly that there is every chance that you will rape her.

If you don't communicate your intentions, she may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her and inadvertently feel safe. Don't rape.

feckingmorons:That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.

Yup. Just like that old joke about Sam, the construction company owner, giving a speech at a party:"You know," he laments to his friends, "over the years I have constructed dozens of enormous projects in and around this city, but am I known as Sam the Builder? No. "And over the years I have contributed literally millions of dollars to charitable causes of one sort or another, but am I called Sam the Philanthropist? No, sir. "But suck one little cock..."

Popcorn Johnny:I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.

From the CNN article Genevieve Marie linked to;

The teen also told the court Mays later attempted to have the girl perform a sex act on him in the basement of a home, where they ended up after the initial alleged incident in the car. "She didn't really respond to it," he said

A second witness, 18-year-old Evan Westlake, told the judge he saw Richmond digitally penetrate the girl in the basement of the home where they ended up after the parties.

A third witness, 18-year-old Anthony Craig, testified he saw Richmond digitally penetrate the girl in the basement."She wasn't moving. She wasn't talking. She wasn't participating," he told the court. Craig was identified in as a Steubenville High School wrestler and friend of Mays and Richmond.

So we have 3 witnesses, friends of the defendants, testifying that they saw them commit acts that constitute rape under Ohio law, after the parties where there is photographic evidence and a ton of witness testimony and tweets from third parties that she was incapacitated. You planning to change your stance now as promised, or will you just move the goalposts some more?

Do everyone (including yourself) a favour, and stop posting in this thread. Afterwards, you'll probably want to abandon this handle and start up a new account, since this something like this is going to be hard to shake off - especially considering how long you've dragged it on for.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Yeah, it's not like her entire job is based on her ability to communicate or anything.

ginandbacon:I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

WhippingBoy:tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety. I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.Do you see the difference?

I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.

/dude, you are either seriously paranoid and should probably seek help, or are involved in some dangerous criminal enterprise if you chances of getting killed are greater than a woman's chances of getting raped.

tlars699:Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

What's fun is that the men who will say women are paranoid for always being aware of any situation in which rape might be possible are always the SAME men who look at a rape case and say "Well yea, but the victim had the responsibility to watch out for herself."

So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.

Genevieve Marie:rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

We also need to teach them not to steal, lie, be dis-honorable and dress themselves, but despite the massive effect this stuff has on society, no one except 'feminists' are talking about re-education. I find that interesting. On the one hand, it clearly shows your extreme nature. On the other hand, it shows just how farked up our society is, and that only 'feminists' seem to have any farking clue what to do about it.

I'm not really ok with either of those options, do you think we could come up with something else?

(I was raised by my mom, she was a rape victim counselor, believe me, I was raised with firm sexual boundaries. I tried my hand at helping victims when I got old enough. Not a good fit for me, as my reaction after seeing most of the victims is to go looking for the guy, which it turns out the police don't appreciate)

tlars699:Carth: WhippingBoy: Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else should be immediately deleted from your phone after you see it. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

FTFY

That's true. With the popularity of snapchat I think that goes without saying but a very good point.

WhippingBoy:RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.

Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment: I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

You don't seem to get it at all.I had no concern over being jumped and mugged by a roving gang of hoodlums on this otherwise safe trail (as I stated in my original post). I am not paranoid. This isn't the 'hood at dark. This isn't a shady unsafe place. This isn't any place that any reasonable person would be concerned about getting mugged or randomly jumped (and because, runners aren't usually carrying anything valuable), I guess a mentally disturbed person off their meds might be out there, but that isn't my concern.

But like, well pretty much any dark sparsely populated place anywhere a gal goes, she DOES have to be concerned about being raped and to the male population (even you) concern over being a victim of rape is never a blip on your radar (and I'm not saying a man has never been raped, but very few men are ever concerned that they will be raped). of all the things you are allegedly afraid of when you run in a park at night, all of the women in that very same park ALSO have to be aware of the potential for rape and this is not because it is uncommon.

Women are taught to ALWAYS be aware of that potential, because the potential is always there. And yes, I am going to make the logical presumption that YOU as a man have no farking clue.

TheotherMIguy:As a Steubenville native, I want to apologize for my hometown.

Really, really apologize.

Though, honestly, I can see the cultural split that's causing this particular mentality in the area. Steubenville's a steel town, used to even be divided by ethnic lines. The places of worship in the lower city are most telling. The Irish Catholic Church (St. Peter's), the now closed Polish Catholic Church (St Stanislaus'), the Greek orthodox church that I can never remember the name of, the Jewish synagogue. And then there's the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a hub of the charismatic Catholic Church. All of these religious organizations lead to the older generations being fire and brimstone, the middle generation being divided three ways: between hyper religious zealots connected in some way to the University and thus either home schooled or attending the catholic high school (CCHS) with the more moderate families, the moderate families sending their children to either SHS or CCHS, and the rest of the city which contains working families, religious rejectionists, meth heads, drug dealers, and folks who could give a shiat about their kids.

In that mix comes SHS football. The town's only distraction from the downward spiral the region is in at the moment. They're going to protect it, idiotically, since other sports *cough*Swimming*cough* have a better overall record in the past decade or so.

I have a pretty good idea for punishment of rapists. They have those chastity belt things with a key, basically handcuffs for the offenders genetailia where if he were to become aroused without removing it it would be very painful, plus he woudl not be able to have intercourse with it on. Convicted of rape, in addition to standard prison time you get one of those, your parole officer gets the key. You keep it until you are deemed worthy of not being a threat. Should you encounter a lady/or man that consents to sex, the offender has to call his parole officer to come and verify consent and then remove chastity belt. Sexual training wheels/ penis house arrest for those who lack the empathy involved in having truly meaningful sex.

Popcorn Johnny:Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.

According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?

Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

Popcorn Johnny:So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!

Any woman can claim rape at any time. She can claim rape on a man who she's never even been in the same room with and wreck his year faster than a cancer diagnosis. The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.

Popcorn Johnny:Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.

You seem to have some knowledge that no one outside that courtroom has. When did the "fingerbanging" in your terms (that wasn't penetration per one of your earlier comments) occur relative to the incapacitation?

Assuming that you are trying to equate what we know publicly with what was presented as evidence in the courtroom, then you clearly understand that we might not know the entire story. We do know it comes down to consent. And in the pictures and video we have, she clearly is beyond consent. I assume you agree with that, right?

So, your entire case, now in this thread, has been whittled down to when the penetration occurred relative to the incapacitation. An absolutely relevant issue. So, what information do you have?

I admit, I don't have any specific info on timing. But I'm not willing to believe these boys who took these pics, posted them online, and took her drunk and passed out (to the point they refer to her as "dead"), and whom refer to themselves as some sort of Rape Gang, are somehow innocent by timing. What they participated in that we can see on video is reprehensible, and consistent with the behavior to which they are accused.

Furthermore, at no time have I hear them argue that timing was key...only that she consented. So, it may be possible that you are creating a defense that the accused (now convicted) aren't even relying upon. Or did I miss that specific defense that she consented early on in the evening and the sex happened then, then she got so drunk that they had to Weekend at Bernie's her to the other parties where they thought pictures and video was a good idea to top off the romantic evening?

Your looking for any excuse here for their innocence strains credulity. Unless you are privy to anything other than "just asking questions".

Popcorn Johnny:Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.

Popcorn Johnny:seadoo2006: YOU CANNOT GIVE LEGAL CONSENT IN OHIO IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SOBER.

So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!

Yes, under the law, you abstain from sex if you're not absolutely sure she's given you legal consent and yes, under the law in almost every state, you CANNOT give legal consent if you've been drinking.

Popcorn Johnny:Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.

LOL Holy shiat. It's like half my ignore list has found this thread. The trolls must be out in force today.

The bonus of the ignore list is that it saves a lot of time. So, if I haven't and don't reply then you can probably guess why. It's probably because you're not smart enough to bother with. My policy is to only ignore stupid people and to never ignore people I simply disagree with. (Otherwise, well, how would I learn?)

Anyhow, hopefully there will be some additional charges. Whoever provided the alcohol and place to party needs to see the inside of a jail cell. Any adults who were aware of or helped this, in any way, needs to answer some questions at the very least.

Someone posted a link in here that indicated additional charges may be forthcoming and I'm curious about that. An adult charged with being an accessory to rape is going to do more time than both of these kids do. Given the publicity of this event, I'd not be the least bit surprised to see that levied against the adult who supplied the residence or the alcohol.

Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent.

UnspokenVoice:LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim? Really??!! I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given. And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves. Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them. Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives

Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.

"There's always that moment of just, lives are destroyed," Callan lamented. "But in terms of what happens now, the most severe thing with these young men is being labeled as registered sex offenders. That label is now placed on them by Ohio law. That will haunt them for the rest of their lives."

Popcorn Johnny:I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.

Your stance is slightly less important than that of the judge who saw all the evidence. Being a juvenile case (inexplicably), getting you that evidence will prove difficult. So, I guess go on with whatever opinion you feel is warranted.

Genevieve Marie:rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

cman:kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.

INeedAName:They may be on the right side of things, but Fox's story is just as much BS as the others. If it hadn't been two young black men, and was instead two young, promising white conservatives who had just gotten into Liberty Univ. I guarantee Fox would be playing an entirely different side.

Yes, Fox is racist.

The way they just have preconceptions of folks and judge them not by their actions but by the conceptions that they hold.... those bastards.

rynthetyn:I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.

God bless Judy Blume. She saved a generation of women from growing up with weird ideas about sex.

That's actually what feminists mean when we say purity culture is rape culture. Sex is something humans are always going to desire, and when we turn it into this forbidden, dirty thing- really bad dynamics emerge.

If you listen to the justifications a lot of people from this town made, they centered around the idea that this girl was a whore. That she was dirty and therefore brought this on herself.

That's rape culture. That's how it works. It's the idea that a woman who has consented to sex a few times has therefore consented to sex all of the time. It's the idea that a girl who wears something too revealing (And those standards are totally arbitrary) is asking to be raped. It's all the messed up ideas that surround this dynamic where men are supposed to want sex all the time and women are supposed to acknowledge that and fend it off at all times.

Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent. We teach teenagers that sex isn't something that makes a boy a man and makes a woman a whore- we teach them that sex is something positive when both parties want it and it's gone into willingly and responsibly.

GAT_00:bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change. Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

GAT_00:bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change. Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.

cman:kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.

I guess if it were legal to NOT fill 24 hours of news with schlock they might have been able to stop the story at the verdict itself.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.

Apologist?

Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.