(17-12-2016 05:04 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote: I love that! To "...build up the wall and stand in the gap". How Shakespearean!

I also rather think of this passage when I think of what we have done, selling our nation to capitalists while our preachers lead the Religious Right in cheering-on the hyper-wealthy elites who profane everything that it might mean to be decent human beings-- hells, we even elect such men!

Our priests promote "princes" of capitalism, people who wrong the poor and needy, oppress the soujourner without justice and invade other countries in our corporate interest to "shed blood and destroy lives in order to get dishonest gain" (not just Iraq, etc... we've been doing it for half a century and more) while our preachers whitewash it and keep the masses distracted and even cheering them on!

I wish more Christians actually did read the Bible honestly, instead of just repeating what their programmed culture taught them to say about it.

And I stand up as best I can for what I believe. What is too often derided as a "social justice warrior", because now we've even learned to slander and smear those who try to have a sense of righteousness other than what's "permitted" by the princes and their pet priests. (Sorry for alliteration.)

This. This is fucking IT motherfuckers. This is the fucking business. DLJ where's your purple quote cards? This needs to be shared.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

I'm serious RS. That quote of yours expresses very beautifully a feeling that I have also shared, that the Christians have lost their way utterly. With your permission I would like to make it into a quote card with attribution and share it over FB, over everywhere. Fuck. I love you OP. You managed to get RS to make a golden post here, the kind that only comes once in a little while.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

(17-12-2016 04:30 PM)Aliza Wrote: Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism. Christianity's message didn't come from Judaism at all, but rather, it seems to have come from pagan religions in Roman Empire. These pagan ideas were superimposed onto Judaism from religiously uneducated people (probably Jews) and the discrepancies are as obvious to a Jewish audience as the discrepancies of Mormonism are obvious to a (traditionally) Christian audience.

Are all the Messianic Jews crazy? Where is your Messiah Daniel prophesied about? What was Isaiah 53 talking about? Why did so many Jews accept Jesus? Why did the cloth on the scapegoat stop turning white?

The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the [high priest’s] right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white…
(Talmud, Tractate Yoma 39b)

I can address Isaiah 53 right now because I happen to have made previous posts about it. The other points you made will have to wait until probably tomorrow. I'm about to go out for the night.

The Servant Songs begins in chapter 40 and concludes with the last chapter of Isaiah. The Jewish people are directly identified as the “servant” some ten times prior to 53, and the actual language in 53 was changed from the original Hebrew to push a Christian agenda. The evidence that Christians put forth is simply insufficient to persuade a Jewish audience because the argument they're making is based on a mistranslation and a misunderstanding of our text.

Christians often forget that these are actually our stories, not theirs. We get to say what our stories mean to us, and just as the Mormons have appropriated Christian ideas into their religion, the Mormon explanation of Christian concepts is about as "authorized" to the Christians as the Christian explanation of Jewish stories is authorized to the Jews.

Isaiah identifying the Jews as the servant:

41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 41:9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you

43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose, " in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be. (speaking of Israel in context) Note: This line is referring to the servant in the plural. The servant is a group of people.

44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob , and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.

45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob , and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me.

48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."

49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Comparison of Jewish and Christian versions of Isaiah.

1 “Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (NASB)1 Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? (Judaica Press)

2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no form or majesty that we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. (NASB)2 And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? (Judaica Press)

3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (NASB)3 Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. (Judaica Press)

Capital H doesn’t belong here. This isn’t just a grammatical mistake; it’s an effort to cause the reader to assume that the servant being described in this chapter is G-d himself.

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. (NASB)4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.(Judaica Press)

Again with the capital H; it doesn’t belong here. Why must Christians try to force an image onto their reader?

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.(NASB)5 But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.(Judaica Press)

Noticed the words “pierced through” are used to replace “pained.” –Clever word alteration there to paint an image in the reader’s mind that isn’t supported in the text. It doesn’t say that the servant was hurt for the speaker’s transgressions. It says he was hurt because of (or as a result of) the speaker’s transgressions. If I run a red light and hit another car, the person in that car is directly affected by my having transgressed the law.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.” (NASB)6 We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. (Judaica Press)

This passage doesn’t say that the iniquity of everyone has to fall on the servant, as though the servant exists to absorb other people’s sins. It just says that the servant prayed for everyone and his prayers were accepted. The capitalization here again puts an image in the reader’s mind that isn’t supported in the text. It’s just that the Christians are trying to turn the servant into their messiah, so they have to change a few things in order to bring this story in-line with their Jesus story. That’s scripture twisting, and if you believe that the Hebrew Scriptures are the word of G-d, then it follows that you’re changing the word of G-d.

(17-12-2016 05:31 PM)morondog Wrote: Love it Aliza. Plus our boy has already claimed that *he* has special knowledge of the scriptures and where they have been mistranslated, so this should be interesting.

Well then I hope he also has Hebrew skills because I'm more than happy to post scripture in the original language.

(17-12-2016 04:42 PM)Bzltyr Wrote: How can you be an atheist? You cannot know that there is no God without knowing everything that exist everywhere and throughout time and if you knew that then you would be God.

I don't have to know that your god is fictional, Bzltyr, and I don't even have to leave My comfy desk chair to disbelieve in it.