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Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

>In particular I found your claim that a particular person hopes it all goes bad for you, to be a false assumption / accusation, confrontational, and obnoxious.

I do believe I cast a pretty big net when I made that statement but that is besides the point.
The thread title was in question of the complaint some conventional beekeepers make about other beekeepers not using insecticide to control mite loads. I have seen several people try to whitewash the subject stating they do not believe such a feeling exist among conventional beekeepers. Being a new beekeeper I have witnessed this false theory first hand and have been warned of the dangers I would cause by not using insecticide in my hives so I find it hard to believe that propaganda is not being preached.

The commercial beekeeper should be worried about the general public finding out that honey has traces of insecticide in it and not about how I treat my bees.

Maybe the true fear is of the general public finding out? Especially if people are using the word "treatment free" on their label. An educated consumer can be dangerous to industry.

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

It would be foolish to assume that Commercial Beekeepers, especially the Commercial Beekeepers I know personally and have heard speak here through beesource.com, don't desire to be free of the need to use treatments against varroa. Also especially those who recall what it was like before 1984, before mites. Economically speaking one could save so much in Labor and Cost of Treatment Materials.

Do folks starting out have any idea what it takes to change combs in even only 500 hives? It is not as simple as shaking all of ones colonies onto foundation and poof you have bees on new comb. Even were it that simple, do TF beginners know how much honey production would be lost and how much syrup would have to be fed to get foundation drawn. What the labor would be?

It could be done, but it would take years and it would take dicipline to keep equipment segregated and one would still have environmental contamination.

At what point would one start? What would there have to be before one started going TF on a large scale? Because once one goes down that road there is no other way to go or all that time work, and investment would be for naught.

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

I get tired of these discussions by folks that have no clue. Do you all think that beekeepers with 10,000 colonies feel any differently that beekeepers with 10 colonies? We're all in this together folks and as usual this has taken the usual turn.

No one wants to dump chemicals in their colonies, but for some it's the only way to proceed until the bees are ready. Do you think there aren't folks trying their very best to develop bees that need less help?

So to the original post. You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers. Well, I guess you would have had to be there to understand. A beekeepers who treats responsibly does so, for instance, in the Fall. This allows a reduction in the mite load and a long period between treatment and supering in the spring. So, there's a treatment free beekeeper in the neighborhood with a small, untreated apiary. That apiary sheds mites which wind up in the apiary of the treatment beekeeper. So, by the time Fall treatment time arrives, the colonies already have a big mite load because they were re-infested from other colonies in the neighborhood.

Do you think I'm full of hot air? Then you haven't had bees long enough.

When all of my 40 apiaries winter wonderfully, and one doesn't, I begin to question myself...what did I do or not do differently. I certainly consider operator error. Then a neighbor drives into my apiary wagging his finger at me and telling me I made his bees crash by being in the neighborhood. But, I never moved my nucs there until July, and he says his bees never built up since he installed his packages. I check my bees and find a huge nosema load. Just where do you think the nosema came from. The nucs were made with brood from the same source, and daughter queens from the same breeders, and made at the same time as the other apiaries and are totally sick and greasy and shivery bees.

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Thanks Michael Palmer for that good explanation, you have expressed what longer time large beekeepers have gradually learned from real life as it is.

I think the way the thread was set up was dividing people into two camps and bound to cause division, best not to even play that game.

The inflammatory comments generally come from very new beekeepers who are sincere in their beliefs but just haven't been around long enough. Hard to judge them as they haven't seen all sides of a picture yet, but when they are deliberately confrontational then actually ask to be banned, go figure...

People who have been around more than a year or two seem to mellow, and that's because they find that things do not always go according to their textbook, so they become more tolerant of the views of others. The longer we keep bees, the less we know LOL

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Originally Posted by Michael Palmer

So to the original post. You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers. Well, I guess you would have had to be there to understand. A beekeepers who treats responsibly does so, for instance, in the Fall. This allows a reduction in the mite load and a long period between treatment and supering in the spring. So, there's a treatment free beekeeper in the neighborhood with a small, untreated apiary. That apiary sheds mites which wind up in the apiary of the treatment beekeeper. So, by the time Fall treatment time arrives, the colonies already have a big mite load because they were re-infested from other colonies in the neighborhood.

Do you think I'm full of hot air? Then you haven't had bees long enough.

.

That is exactly what happened to me a few years ago, with my neighbouring beekeeper who just bought a retiring beekeeper out and bought into this "natural" survivor beekeeping practice. Problem was he bought 1200 hives and naturally he lost 1000 of them within a couple of years. I was never able to control the mite loads in the yards around his, and only figured out why after this guy went broke. Now my treatment results are more predictable.
Just my experience

maybe those hives that survived in the end could of been built back up to what he had tried to do, but in the end it did not matter as he went broke,

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Being profitable, is a different matter.

I see D. Semple already beat me to it, but I think this is the big difference. Of course we can debate what "profitable" is, but I have yet to see a TF beekeeper make their sole living from their bees.

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Amazing how strong his convictions must have been to stick to them, not treat, and suffer all that. Admire the guy, and also feel sorry for him, must have been a nightmare.

But there is something in this for all those people who have had one hive for 3 months and start lecturing commercial beekeepers about what they should be doing. Learn from what happened to that guy. A small timers situation mostly does not apply to a big guy.

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

I think the way the thread was set up was dividing people into two camps and bound to cause division, best not to even play that game.

The OP was about a specific case originally voiced by wildbranch I believe. I hope I'm not throwing him under the bus, so to speak. Just thought folks should be reminded of the origin of the reference.

Been a while since anyone was banned Barry? He must have been the first to demand it?

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Originally Posted by Michael Palmer

I get tired of these discussions by folks that have no clue. Do you all think that beekeepers with 10,000 colonies feel any differently that beekeepers with 10 colonies? We're all in this together folks and as usual this has taken the usual turn.

No one wants to dump chemicals in their colonies, but for some it's the only way to proceed until the bees are ready. Do you think there aren't folks trying their very best to develop bees that need less help?

So to the original post. You don't understand the complaint about treatment free beekeepers. Well, I guess you would have had to be there to understand. A beekeepers who treats responsibly does so, for instance, in the Fall. This allows a reduction in the mite load and a long period between treatment and supering in the spring. So, there's a treatment free beekeeper in the neighborhood with a small, untreated apiary. That apiary sheds mites which wind up in the apiary of the treatment beekeeper. So, by the time Fall treatment time arrives, the colonies already have a big mite load because they were re-infested from other colonies in the neighborhood.

Do you think I'm full of hot air? Then you haven't had bees long enough.

When all of my 40 apiaries winter wonderfully, and one doesn't, I begin to question myself...what did I do or not do differently. I certainly consider operator error. Then a neighbor drives into my apiary wagging his finger at me and telling me I made his bees crash by being in the neighborhood. But, I never moved my nucs there until July, and he says his bees never built up since he installed his packages. I check my bees and find a huge nosema load. Just where do you think the nosema came from. The nucs were made with brood from the same source, and daughter queens from the same breeders, and made at the same time as the other apiaries and are totally sick and greasy and shivery bees.

Re: I don't understand this complaint about treatment free beekeepers

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Wow. Lost nearly all 1200 hives in 2 years then went broke!

I would also chalk a lot of those losses to in experience, as if he had any experience with beekeeping other than working for one for a few years, he would of understood the importance of maintaining healthy hives