Both are issues that aren't just "We will do this", but allows for dialog and discussion. Spend your time in Iceland focused on that. You have 4 months after that to bring up "Please implement x and y, fix z and k".

Originally by:TeaDazeDo you have examples of posts that were not just deleted for spamming stuff like "Free Abathur" etc?

There is a difference between censoring items you disagree with and enforcing the forum rules that everybody signed up to when they logged in.

If people really are being censored then I want to see it stopped as much as the next person, but comparing post counts between the forum and eve search doesn't give an accurate picture.

I read that thread on Eve Search, because the modhammer was dropping way too hard on the main thread, but I don't think it archived all that much extra. It was only about three pages longer, I think, whereas from the way people were talking, a lot more than 3 pages got deleted. People mentioned multiple times that serious, well-considered posts of theirs got deleted, not just "Free Abathur! (angry little man)" posts. I can't tell you whether they had legit posts got killed intentionally, killed accidentally, or whether they're just lying, but from the best archiving we have, I'd say that there was a serious problem with mod overreaction on that thread.

Also, surprised nobody has put the docking games fix thread on the agenda yet.

Posted - 2009.12.09 06:31:00 -
[14]
1 & 3 were raised by CSM1 I believe, and as such, we couldn't put them in the wiki as CSM1 didn't use it. You'll notice most of CSM1's issues aren't on there.

For some reason that I can't explain, it is never publicised that CSM and CCP review all previous CSM issues with the current CSM when they meet in Iceland. It tends to be on the last day of the meetings and CCP/CSM go through the list and get an update on what is happening. Either the issues are in development, in the backlog, or implemented (in one way or another), so re-raising issues is imho, pointless unless you really want to stress that that issue is way more important than anything else and should get a higher priority in the backlog.----------------------

Posted - 2009.12.11 05:48:00 -
[15]
#3 was also brought up by CSM3 as part of our number 1 priority issue: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Corporation_and_Alliance_tool_overhaul#Corporate_chat_.2F_Alliance_chat_MotD

Posted - 2009.12.15 16:55:00 -
[19]Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 15/12/2009 16:58:24I also believe forum censorship should be topic, but perhaps broadened into the category: poor communication by CCP with player base, or simply "CCP communication".

To censor a post that simply states "Free Abernathy" I find disturbing. I might understand extreme foul language or threats etc. being removed, but innocuous protest statements by players being removed?

I also believe a number of players stated major well considered posts were removed entirely.

I think communication should be a primary subject especially for CSM representing the player base. Why? Because if one party can simply decide what to listen to and not listen to - or even if truthfulness of statements being made by CCP cannot be challenged - then there really is no point at all in having player representation or the CSM itself - or even forums where supposed communication between CCP and player base take place.

Communication has to be present and valid. It shouldn't be just be some kind of water faucet CCP decides to turn on and off at will. There is not much to gain from that type of communication - if that's what CCP wants, then they might as well just talk to themselves and forget the player base or CSM.

Here are a few points about CCP communication:

1. What happened to promised QA between CSM & CCP over last months? This has been a serious communication breakdown.

2. Statements made in the Mother Ship DEV BLOG that created such a furor by the player base were outright incorrect. Such as the use of Target Painters by CAP ships, and the assumption of there not being in general close quarter cap ship engagements.

3. The follow-up statements by DEVs in a feedback forum such as the Mother Ship debacle did not improve communication at all - and in fact because of a bit of flippancy and lack of actually responding to key points brought up by players - made the communication even worse - with more players upset and less information being brought forth.

4. Another aspect I consider poor CCP communication is player expectations. I think many players having participated on the test server cap ship testing and providing feedback etc. to CCP had some reasonable expectations that dramatic changes wouldn't be done 1 week prior to Dominion deployment. That sudden changes were made with apparently again not a whole lot of communication such as "Mother ships" suddenly being able to dock at stations etc. which shocked many in the player base, then suddenly Mother ships being pulled completely while all other CAP changes were to remain in effect - I think left the players in the state of WTF?

So here are some recommendations I would make to "improve" CCP communication.

1. DEV Blog statements need to be carefully checked for truthfulness by other parties. And more importantly, if there is an error in the statements they need to be acknowledged and corrected immediately on a follow up.

2. 1 or 2 follow-up statements (one being flippant) toward an outraged player base does not help anyone and just adds fuel to the fire. There needs to be more commitment by CCP to respond to issues - maybe an extra staff member just to handle communication. If a DEV makes a BLOG post she should be committed to address valid issues being brought up in response to what he/she has posted.

3. Heavy use of censorship does not help anyone and creates a terrible atmosphere between the player base and CCP. Whether justified or not, there really is not much of a need for it - other than extreme language or death threats type of stuff. OTW - this is an MMO forum, we all know threads can get hairy. So what. Eve Online is not a disneyland game and the player base in fact prides itself on being an HTFU crowd. By using heavy censorship CCP just worsens the sense by the player base that they are getting honest communication.

4. QA sessions between CCP and CSM need to be done and not simply disappear into the void.

Originally by:Dante EdmundoTo censor a post that simply states "Free Abernathy" I find disturbing. I might understand extreme foul language or threats etc. being removed, but innocuous protest statements by players being removed?

Originally by:Forum RulesSpamming, bumping and pyramid quoting are prohibited.

Posts Spamming "Free Abernathy" etc can be removed under the rules people have agreed to when they login to the forum (alternatively they could be classed as trolling and removed under section 7 and some were personal attacks on the dev in question which is against section 6).

Removing Spam posts does not count as censorship!

It might blur the line sometimes but you can't be outraged about posts being removed that breach the forum rules.

Originally by:Dante EdmundoI also believe a number of players stated major well considered posts were removed entirely.

I have yet to see evidence of this from eve search or any other mirror taken.

If this was the case then it needs to be addressed as a matter of priority.

I agree that communication needs to be improved and hopefully we can lead by example.

Originally by:Forum RulesSpamming, bumping and pyramid quoting are prohibited.

Posts Spamming "Free Abernathy" etc can be removed under the rules people have agreed to when they login to the forum (alternatively they could be classed as trolling and removed under section 7 and some were personal attacks on the dev in question which is against section 6).

Removing Spam posts does not count as censorship!

It might blur the line sometimes but you can't be outraged about posts being removed that breach the forum rules.

Hey TeaDaze. Thx for response. I supported you in the election and glad you're on a seat now. Gratz.

In my mind - the problem is not really whether CCP has the right to do what they are doing - i.e. the rules (rules they themselves created). In fact, throughout history, those who have censored or burned books - created "rules" in order to perform the censorship acts (which in the censor's mind is usually justified) - that IMO boils down to: controlling the communication of others - for whatever reasons.

Won't get into a philosophical debate over censorship as I've already blogged my position (I abhor it) - but rules not really problem here. It's the "heavy" use of censorship and needless overuse that created a huge negative impact IMO on communication, and further distrust from the players posting.

>> It might blur the line sometimes

I think this is the crux of the problem. Where do you draw the line and who draws it? "Free Abernathy" - frankly IMO I don't see any kind of direct personal attack - only a very common protest statement - and too the point in fact. Apparently Abernathy was taken off the Mothership CAP development and a new dev (or team) replaced him and huge changes took place afterward and some gross misstatements were made by the new dev (Nozh). The question by the way of why Abernathy was no longer part of the dev team was never addressed.

Players asking that Abernathy be put back on the dev team via a common protest slogan "Free Abernathy" - is considered a direct attack? I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Originally by:TeaDaze

Originally by:Dante EdmundoI also believe a number of players stated major well considered posts were removed entirely.

I have yet to see evidence of this from eve search or any other mirror taken.

If this was the case then it needs to be addressed as a matter of priority.

I was careful in regards to phrasing my statement - other players stated their posts were removed entirely - so you may well be right that this was not the case. But this goes to the point - perceived perception of the player base became very negative - as the heavy use of censorship caused much greater distrust and the perception that CCP was not listening, and instead of an HTFU up attitude was taking a STFU attitude with communication.

Originally by:TeaDazeI agree that communication needs to be improved and hopefully we can lead by example.

We are agreed. Perhaps as I suggest CSM should broaden the question - and instead of limiting the talking point to "Forum Censorship" - discuss how to improve communication overall. As I pointed out, there were a number of communication failures IMO that could be improved that will help both CCP and the player base (and CSM in the long run) to make the efforts to improve Eve ONline (a goal we all agree upon) better.

Cheers to you TeaDaze and rest of CSM board. Wish you guys best of luck and glad you're going to bat for the players.

Originally by:Dante EdmundoIn my mind - the problem is not really whether CCP has the right to do what they are doing - i.e. the rules (rules they themselves created). In fact, throughout history, those who have censored or burned books - created "rules" in order to perform the censorship acts (which in the censor's mind is usually justified) - that IMO boils down to: controlling the communication of others - for whatever reasons.

It is tricky because CCP have the right to do whatever they like on their own site and people have to abide by their rules. In practice I see far less moderation here than in other games. Also posts critical of CCP are frequently left untouched.

But whilst people have the right to free speech I don't believe CCP have to provide them the service or the audience to do so.

Originally by:Dante EdmundoWon't get into a philosophical debate over censorship as I've already blogged my position (I abhor it) - but rules not really problem here. It's the "heavy" use of censorship and needless overuse that created a huge negative impact IMO on communication, and further distrust from the players posting.

I agree here. I hate censorship and have been actively fighting against censorship software being installed at the local internet providers for a number of years. I don't see enforcing the forum rules on one site when you are still free to discuss the issues as you like elsewhere as censorship in the truest sense.

Originally by:Dante Edmundo>> It might blur the line sometimes

I think this is the crux of the problem. Where do you draw the line and who draws it? "Free Abernathy" - frankly IMO I don't see any kind of direct personal attack - only a very common protest statement - and too the point in fact. Apparently Abernathy was taken off the Mothership CAP development and a new dev (or team) replaced him and huge changes took place afterward and some gross misstatements were made by the new dev (Nozh). The question by the way of why Abernathy was no longer part of the dev team was never addressed.

Players asking that Abernathy be put back on the dev team via a common protest slogan "Free Abernathy" - is considered a direct attack? I think that's a bit of a stretch.

I don't think it was addressed no, but here is where I draw the line.

People just posting the same slogan "Free Abathur" and nothing else breaches a couple of the forum rules, the no spamming one being the most applicable. There were also people wanting Nozh fired, people being very nasty and generally bordering on real life threats (diaf etc).

Then people started comparing post counts between the official forum and eve search and claiming heavy CCP censorship. This was a totally failed argument but some people went with it because they love a dramabomb.

I don't know if Abathur was taken off the team or what the reasons were for the changes being backed out, but the fact so many people had their expectations neutered was obviously going to end badly and I can't believe CCP did it lightly. I hope we will get an answer when we visit CCP if not before.

Originally by:Dante EdmundoI was careful in regards to phrasing my statement - other players stated their posts were removed entirely - so you may well be right that this was not the case. But this goes to the point - perceived perception of the player base became very negative - as the heavy use of censorship caused much greater distrust and the perception that CCP was not listening, and instead of an HTFU up attitude was taking a STFU attitude with communication.

Things have got to the stage where I can claim CCP deleted my post and have people foaming at the mouth over censorship regardless of the actual reason.

This is not a good state and needs looking into. I hope to talk with people at CCP about this issue in Feb.

COPYRIGHT NOTICEEVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.