Jim Betts - Questions & Answers about Victorias regional

Why people travels from Geelong to Melbourne have to pay near twice as much as person travels from Lara to Melbourne?
Distance from Lara to Melbourne is around 57km
Distance from Geelong to Melbourne is around 72km
The question is why person Geelong has to pay 8.80 to travel 15km on V/Line?

In real terms travelling public is over paying for Public transport needs when travelling to Geelong on V/Line.
Next year when smart cards come in, Geelong should be in Zone 4 not Zone 5.
Zone 1+2+3 4 Daily Price should be around
Full fare: 16.00
Concession Fare: 7.30

Contact melbtrip

Simply because they have no intention of re-introducing passenger trains on either of those lines.Chris Brownbill

Thats a very long bow to draw regarding Mildura, Chris

Perhaps you could have given Jim the opportunity to post a response regarding Mildura, instead of posting a silly comment without factoring in the PN equation first

The Vinelander.The Vinelander

Well Mike, I'd LOVE to be wrong, and if I am I'll be the very first to admit it, but its not a silly response at all - it is a logical explanation for the omissions from the press releases. Indeed so far as Leongatha is concerned you have said basically the same yourself. This is however an opportunity for Jim to set me straight if I've got it wrong. However in truth this is a political issue which Jim may not be able to answer because I suspect the promise to return pass trains to Mildura and 'gatha is a delicate issue in the corridors of Spring Street at the moment.Chris Brownbill

Calm down, boys, we're all friends here. This is an issue on which I'm just going to sit it out and let the Government's public pronouncements speak for themselves without any further commentary. Sorry to be a boring bureaucrat.

Posted: 03 Jul 2006 17:58

Contact Jim Betts

Calm down, boys, we're all friends here. This is an issue on which I'm just going to sit it out and let the Government's public pronouncements speak for themselves without any further commentary. Sorry to be a boring bureaucrat.Jim Betts

Thanks Jim, yes it pays to remember that we're all on the same side of the debate here.

I understand implicitly that this is a (very) political issue.

Posted: 03 Jul 2006 18:08

Contact Chris Brownbill

I hear the following will happen next year when new ticketing system comes in to place (smart card), there be new zones and they will be based on V/line zones.
Zone B = Zone 2
Zone C = Zone 3
Zone D = Zone 4
Zone E = Zone 5
Zone F = Zone 6
Zone G = Zone 7
And so on?
For Geelong Line the following:
Geelong Zones
Zone 3 Little River to Lara
Zone 4/5 Lara to North Geelong
Zone 5 North Geelong to Marshall
Melbourne to Geelong will be a Zones 1 to 5 fares

Is this information correct? If not can you please put up correct information.

How much extra will zones 1+2+3+4 cost compare to Zone 1+2+3 ticket?A user

My colleague Adrian Webb ("revenue") will be happy to answer this one. AW - get to work!A user

Thanks Jim. 8)

In summary, we have been aligning V/Line and Metcard for some time so that we can have one ticketing system when smartcards are introduced in 2007. Alignment was required in four areas: concessions, fares, zones and products.

Concessions: Concessions between all operators will be fully aligned from 27 August when Seniors will get concessions on V/Line at all times. This means that after three years of progressive changes we now have one set of concessions that apply to Metcard, V/Line and regional buses. This is a significant achievement. In practical terms this means that when we implement the new ticketing solution and you have a concession smartcard, you will be getting concessions on all operators (and not trying to do what some other cities have done which is to program concessions on an operator by operator basis). This has been hard work, but much easier than a similar alignment I did in Brisbane, where there was pretty much no alignment. It may interest you to know that prior to my integrated ticketing system being introduced in South East Queensland there were some people who were entitled to free travel on some operators, half price travel on others, and full fares on the rest. We weren't that bad in Victoria, but there were some strange things we have gotten rid of.

Zones: We are going to implement a statewide zone fare structure for Victoria. This doesn't mean that we will call Ballarat Zone 9, it just means that we will calculate fares on that basis. eg. someone will still buy a fare from Zone 1 to Ballarat. We've pretty much achieved this already. The zones to Melbourne can be seen in the Victorian Fares and Ticketing Manual which can be downloaded from the Metlink website. The manual does NOT show the new zone overlaps which won't be promoted until the new system is introduced.

Fares: With common zones, we need common fares. On 1 January we aligned fares from certain V/Line stations to match their future zone. For example Lara will be in Zone 3 (so the fare from Lara to Melbourne is now the same as the Zone 3 fare).

Products: We've aligned the products of V/Line with Metcard. eg. they both have weekly tickets valid for seven days (remember, the Metcard weekly used to be valid for eight days if first validated after 3pm), they both have monthly tickets, V/Line has a Day Return and Metcard has a Daily with the same rules, etc. In other words, when the new system comes in, we will have common ticket types on all operators.

So what does all this mean?

Well it means that when the new ticketing system is implemented, it will be easier for customers and staff to understand as there will be one set of zones, one set of ticket types, one fares table and one set of concessions.

Pretty simple huh?

It means if you understand how ticketing works on your local bus down to the shops, it means you also understand ticketing on V/Line, on the Geelong Transit System, on trams, on trains, etc.

For the next twelve months it is a little difficult to understand as we have to run them as separate ticketing systems due to technical system limitations of the current hardware. But all this goes when the new ticketing solution is implemented.

We implemented as much as we could within the current systems (eg. integration of V/Line tickets from 22 April 06), but more integration benefits will occur in 2007 with the new technology.

In relation to Geelong fare levels, we regularly review fare levels but our research indicates that they are broadly cost competitive with driving. Exact boundaries are still yet to be determined for some areas. So you'll have to wait and see for some things.

The other thing you have to consider for V/Line is the difference between cash fares and periodicals. V/Line's cash fares are relatively high, but their periodicals are very heavily discounted in some cases. So when you compare fares look at those as well. The weekly fare to Geelong is at about the right level (eg. $71.30 per week for Zone 5/E, vs. $62.40 for Zone 4/D or $52.20 for Zone 3).

Regards

Adrian Webb
Victorian Fare Policy Manager

Posted: 03 Jul 2006 18:18

Contact Revenue

I travel to Gold Coast every year because there fare system is so easy to understand, more easy to understand then current Victorian fares system.
In South East Queensland a person can travel from Gympie North (zone23) to Coolangatta (zone 19) and still only pay ticket from Gympie North to Brisbane, which works out to be a Zones 1 to 23 fare.
Gympie North is on the Sunshine coast.
Coolangatta is on the Gold Coast.

Will it be case here?
For Example can a person travel from Geelong (zone E) to Garfield (zone E) and still only pay Geelong to Melbourne fare, when new ticket system come in to place?

Contact Nexas

In South East Queensland a person can travel from Gympie North (zone23) to Coolangatta (zone 19) and still only pay ticket from Gympie North to Brisbane, which works out to be a Zones 1 to 23 fare.
Gympie North is on the Sunshine coast.
Coolangatta is on the Gold Coast.

Will it be case here?
For Example can a person travel from Geelong (zone E) to Garfield (zone E) and still only pay Geelong to Melbourne fare, when new ticket solution comes in to place? A user

Yes, this will be the case here. We are bringing V/Line into line with Metcard. eg. you can travel from Werribee to Eltham on a Zone 1+2 ticket at the moment. Under the new ticketing solution you will be able to travel from Geelong to Garfield on a Zone 1-5 ticket.

Thanks for the compliment about the SEQ ticketing system, I'm very proud of that system. For those of you who are interested, integrated fares in SEQ boosted patronage by about 11% in the first quarter of operation.

Victoria's will be as simple as Translink - AFTER the new ticketing solution is implemented.

The changes we are doing now mean that we can have a simple system after the new technology is installed. If we hadn't made these changes now then we wouldn't have been able to program in a new simple system.

What does this mean to all the rail fans? You'll be able to purchase a Day Return ticket to Bendigo (Zones 1- 14) and travel to Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Moe, etc. Go nuts.

Q3 Any reason why Echuca service once return, will stay at twice weekly rather than extend some Bendigo services to Echuca?

Q4, The former Westcoast rail did manage to bring tourists to the South West and West coast, as well as economic contribution to region around Warrnambool. Despite number of critisms and doubts, their steam haul services was the main reason brought in that many tourists, as crazy as it seem, is there anyway DOI might consider boost tourists on regioanl routes by some innovation idea like what WCR used to have?
(or what Toll Rail is doing now with Tranz-Scenic trains, ironically it was influenced by Westcoast railway)

Posted: 03 Jul 2006 21:33

Contact standard_gauge

It good news to have the state public transport to have a zones fares, it will make people life easy when travelling on public transport, when I travel to Gold Coast, most people I talk to are happy with the ticket system they got couple years ago.

When does country Victoria public transport system get zones fares?
What is happing with off-peak tickets next year when smartcard comes in?
Is there any change the State government change the off peak ticket rule, so Concession card holders on a weekend or public holiday can buy a off-peak ticket?
And also any change allow people holding a Yearly, Date-to-Date, Monthly and Weekly ticket holders to buy a off peak or a Sunday Saver for their Extension ticket?
I got question from my friend
If a person has a weekly Geelong to Melbourne ticket, can they travel all zones 1+2+3 on the weekend?

Contact GeoffreyHansen

Revenue, may I say that the Translink system is excellent, I just need to ask when are you going to introduce a similar system to Sydney? A user

When they pay me a large amount of money to move to Sydney. Feel free to recommend me. After the introduction of the new ticketing solution next year, around a third of all public transport trips in Australia will be undertaken on a ticketing system that I either designed or significantly reworked. So I have a record of delivery.

It is worth pointing out that Brisbane was in the same situation as Sydney when I moved up there in 1998. Sydney decided to try and replicate their current rules on smartcard. We decided to simplify the existing system first, and then go smartcard. Sydney now understands the logic of the Brisbane approach.

When does country Victoria public transport system get zones fares? A user

They almost have them now. If someone is travelling from Geelong to Melbourne they get free travel in Geelong (Zone 5) and Zone 1. So for most common journeys they already have most of the benefits of integration. Full zone integration will be delivered with the new smartcard ticketing solution - which will be in 2007 (but obviously not everywhere at the same time as equipment can't be installed everywhere on day one).

What is happing with off-peak tickets next year when smartcard comes in? A user

We're looking at it. No decision at this time.

Is there any change the State government change the off peak ticket rule, so Concession card holders on a weekend or public holiday can buy a off-peak ticket? A user

No change proposed at this time. Off-peak discounts on V/Line are presently designed to encourage people to avoid peaks on weekdays.

And also any change allow people holding a Yearly, Date-to-Date, Monthly and Weekly ticket holders to buy a off peak or a Sunday Saver for their Extension ticket? A user

No, periodical ticket holders may only purchase extension tickets that are 2hr, Daily, Single or Day Return.

If a person has a weekly Geelong to Melbourne ticket, can they travel all zones 1+2+3 on the weekend?A user

No. As described previously, when the new system comes in they will have a Zone 1-5 ticket. It is not worth complicating the existing system when this will be fixed next year.

Contact Jim Betts

I travel Glen Waverley to Footscray and return each day. This involves 737 bus, train GW to Parliament, train Parliament to Footscray. The reverse is, well, the same in reverse.

I've noticed that Ventura, on some routes, have a PID at some bus stops which I think should be mandatory for all bus services (at least at heavily used routes). Is there any plan to install these widely? The most frustrating thing about waiting for a bus in wondering if the damn thing ran early or isn't running at all (Melbourne BusLink 220 service is notorious for this)

Oh, another one, what (if any) penalties do bus companies suffer for not runnig scheduled services? i.e. the above idiots at Melb BusLink

Posted: 04 Jul 2006 16:04

Contact ParkesHub

Being a timetable afficionado I have a question about the upcoming recast statewide timetables. Whilst I realise they're still under wraps, can you let us know to what extent local and regional (non-V/Line) bus services will be co-ordinated with train times? Further, to what extent will connecting services be advertised and publicised in passenger information (printed timetables, on-board announcements, platform PIDS etc). Finally, can we expect to see 'memory' timetables which are essentially a repeating pattern of services - meaning its easier for everyone because they dont have to crack the DaVinci code hidden in the timetable every time they travel?

By the way Jim and Revenue, really appreciate the time and energy you guys are spending talking with us here. If you think there's any way we can help you - be sure to ask - just dont ask me to meet you Pentridge mates

Posted: 04 Jul 2006 16:22

Contact Chris Brownbill

By the way Jim and Revenue, really appreciate the time and energy you guys are spending talking with us here. If you think there's any way we can help you - be sure to ask - just dont ask me to meet you Pentridge mates Chris Brownbill

I'd like to second this, I think many of us really appreciate your contribution to Railpage.

Contact GeoffreyHansen

Revenue: I bring to your attention two bus routes:1. Route 788 Franston-Portsea[Metcards do not apply at all].

2. Route 683 Chirnside Park-Lilydale-Warburton[Route 683 lies half in the zone syetm, and half out of the zone system.....Metcard-zone 3 tickets are valid only until Woori Yallock, then a country fare applies beyond Woori Yallock to Warburton]

AFAIK Martyrs, the operator of route 683, have been arguing for years to integrate the route, in its entirity, into the Metcard based zone 1-2-3 system.

Revenue: are there any plans to integrate either or both of these routes into the metcard ticket system?

Contact xxxxlbear

What does this mean to all the rail fans? You'll be able to purchase a Day Return ticket to Bendigo (Zones 1- 14) and travel to Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Moe, etc. Go nuts.

Just do us a favour and try to travel off-peak, ok? Revenue

At first I found that hard to belive, but I guess it is true. And Melbtrip appeared to be the first to work it out a few months ago!

Products: We've aligned the products of V/Line with Metcard. In other words, when the new system comes in, we will have common ticket types on all operators.Revenue

Will this mean the other non-Metcard V/line periodicals (date-to-date tickets, sold by customer-defined number of weeks) will cease to exist at some point in the next year or two? Also, how will V/line tickets be implemented as smartcards - card reader for conductors seem to have been mentioed previously. Or is it still to be finalised?

And finally, with the door modifications to N sets, increased DMU usage, and new ticketing (that might not be easily visually inspected, instead needing a card reader) will there be a move towards the elimination of V/line conductors?

(Perhaps on some interurban services run with DMUs it could happen - for example on the Melton / Sunbury services it almost happens today with Metcards)

Posted: 04 Jul 2006 17:11

Contact wongm

And finally, with the door modifications to N sets, increased DMU usage, and new ticketing (that might not be easily visually inspected, instead needing a card reader) will there be a move towards the elimination of V/line conductors?wongm

No, there will not!!!

V/Line are presently training a new batch of conductors - more are required to ensure each service in the new service plan has one on board, so most definitely, no! Conductors are here to stay.

Revenue: are there any plans to integrate either or both of these routes into the metcard ticket system?A user

Yes, these routes will be included in the standard ticketing system. No decision has been made on where the zone boundaries will be for these routes, or indeed the other routes that are outside the current Metcard boundaries. Detailed analysis is required.

Will this mean the other non-Metcard V/line periodicals (date-to-date tickets, sold by customer-defined number of weeks) will cease to exist at some point in the next year or two? Also, how will V/line tickets be implemented as smartcards - card reader for conductors seem to have been mentioed previously. Or is it still to be finalised?A user

In regard to Date-to-Date tickets, this functionality is proposed to be provided for all customers (remember its one ticketing system).

V/Line tickets will be just the same as metropolitan. Disposable smartcards for short term tickets, and long life smartcards for stored value and periodicals.

Conductors will use hand held ticket readers. The contractor for the new ticketing system will develop software that can be loaded onto any standard PDA which will then have a smartcard reader fitted. So it will be a very small, light device for conductors. They will use this device to both check smartcards and sell them.

And finally, with the door modifications to N sets, increased DMU usage, and new ticketing (that might not be easily visually inspected, instead needing a card reader) will there be a move towards the elimination of V/line conductors?A user

There are no plans to get rid of V/Line conductors. The growth in V/Line patronage actually means that if the new ticketing solution can reduce the workload for conductors then this will just balance the additional patronage. For example, some V/Line trains have so many passengers that often the conductor can't get through them fast enough - the smartcard system will make this more efficient.

Anyway, with the Stony Point line to become Sprinter operated, Metcards being the tickets, and driver operated doors, I don't see much difference between it and any electrified suburban line with DOO (bar the motive power, and tradition)

Contact wongm

Revenue: I bring to your attention two bus routes:1. Route 788 Franston-Portsea[Metcards do not apply at all].

2. Route 683 Chirnside Park-Lilydale-Warburton[Route 683 lies half in the zone syetm, and half out of the zone system.....Metcard-zone 3 tickets are valid only until Woori Yallock, then a country fare applies beyond Woori Yallock to Warburton]

AFAIK Martyrs, the operator of route 683, have been arguing for years to integrate the route, in its entirity, into the Metcard based zone 1-2-3 system.

Revenue: are there any plans to integrate either or both of these routes into the metcard ticket system?xxxxlbear

562 Humervale to Greensborough SC
From Humervale to Kinglake West is likely to become zone 3

782 Frankston Stn to Flinders
From Balnarring Village Shopping Centre to Flinders is likely to become Zone 4.

Healesville at the current moment is in zone 3, but with V/line it is in zone D which will become Zone 4; may be an overlap zone 3 and 4 in 2007.

Stony Point at the current moment is in zone 3, will it be the same for the new ticketing system? Same, May be a Zone 3 and 4 overlap for some stations at end of the line.

683 Chirnside Park SC to Warburton
Woori Yallock to Warburton is likely to become Zone 4.

Route 788 Franston-Portsea
The 788 Franston-Portsea is likey become a Zone 3 to 5 bus route.

Posted: 04 Jul 2006 18:22

Contact melbtrip

Nice guesses Melbtrip, but no decisions have been made. We can all guess (even I can), but until we have collected and looked at all the patronage and revenue data and likely development in those areas we can't make any decisions.

Contact Revenue

Why are we having two systems, Metlink and Viclink, why not have them both in the one same system? Or am I getting confused?

This has always been a good idea, and why did they not bring it in back
in 1983, to cover all V/Line as well?

What about the Victoria Pass, back when I could get them, I had to get one of them, as well as a zone 1+2+3 The met card so as I can make use of the Victoria pass to the full. Will there be a new, all over ticket that will cover all Suburban, Country, and Regional services. Like travel all over Victoria as much as you want, (seat reservations would be required when required) on all Melbourne, Victorian, Geelong, Ballarat and etc services.

When I travel from a Suburban location, to a country location, such as Narre Warren to Tallarook, I hate the idea that I have already paid for Southern Cross to Craigiburn, but I have no choice but to pay for it again in the V/Line ticket. Will this change under the new plans?

This gets worse with the new system as I understand it. My Vline ticket also includes a Zone 1 travel. Why can I not get just a zone 2+3 metcard, and a Southern Cross to Tallarook v/line ticket of which includes Met zone 1, say from Dandenong or Narre Warren?

I understand that we may still be living with the legacy of when the Anyware Concession daily ticket (now a zone 1+2+3 daily) had to be worth a Neighbourhood plus one ticket, because there was no concession form of the Neighbourhood plus one ticket - was it some other ticket of which they did not have the concession version of. Whilst the gap may have closed a bit since the current three zone system came in. I have not noticed the current fares, but are we now exactly half for this ticket? or will this gap close soon?

All metcard and vlinecard outlets should be the same? will this happen?

Will it be possible for me to pre purchase V/Line tickets like I can with Metcards?

I bet I shall have more questions later, but this will do for now.

Posted: 05 Jul 2006 13:27

Contact tranzitjim

No decision has been made yet. It is possible that we won't call it Zone 4 (eg. you'd still buy a ticket from Zone 1 to North Shore to avoid customer confusion - it would just be priced and programmed as a Zone 1-4 ticket). Many systems around the world do this (use zones that aren't obvious).

You can have have either 'implicit' or 'explicit' zones and no decision has been made on which way we should go with this. The end decision will be based on what is best for the customer.

Why are we having two systems, Metlink and Viclink, why not have them both in the one same system? Or am I getting confused? A user

They are two sides of the same coin - and are essentially about branding. It might interest you to know that the V/Line and Metlink call centres are run by the same company, so they really aren't that different.

What about the Victoria Pass, back when I could get them, I had to get one of them, as well as a zone 1+2+3 The met card so as I can make use of the Victoria pass to the full. Will there be a new, all over ticket that will cover all Suburban, Country, and Regional services. Like travel all over Victoria as much as you want, (seat reservations would be required when required) on all Melbourne, Victorian, Geelong, Ballarat and etc services.A user

Victoria Pass has been phased out as we only sold about one a month. Because the new solution will be integrated just purchase a weekly for the zones you require. Because it is one system (that covers regional buses, Metlink and V/Line) it will cover all operators covered by the new ticketing solution.

When I travel from a Suburban location, to a country location, such as Narre Warren to Tallarook, I hate the idea that I have already paid for Southern Cross to Craigiburn, but I have no choice but to pay for it again in the V/Line ticket. Will this change under the new plans? A user

Yes, it will be based on zones.

This gets worse with the new system as I understand it. My Vline ticket also includes a Zone 1 travel. Why can I not get just a zone 2+3 metcard, and a Southern Cross to Tallarook v/line ticket of which includes Met zone 1, say from Dandenong or Narre Warren? A user

These are limitations of the current ticketing equipment. The problem disappears when the new system comes in and the same zones apply to all operators.

I understand that we may still be living with the legacy of when the Anyware Concession daily ticket (now a zone 1+2+3 daily) had to be worth a Neighbourhood plus one ticket, because there was no concession form of the Neighbourhood plus one ticket - was it some other ticket of which they did not have the concession version of. Whilst the gap may have closed a bit since the current three zone system came in. I have not noticed the current fares, but are we now exactly half for this ticket? or will this gap close soon? A user

Umm..not exactly sure what you mean, but the concession fares for all 10x2hr, 5xDaily and Weekly tickets have been aligned at half of the adult price. Price alignment of 'cash' tickets is not proposed.

All metcard and vlinecard outlets should be the same? will this happen? A user

Once again, it will be one system, so yes the outlets will be the same.

Will it be possible for me to pre purchase V/Line tickets like I can with Metcards?A user

There will be no V/Line tickets, there will be no Metcards, there will be one new system that covers both. The same rules will apply to V/Line and Metcard. Prepurchase will be based on stored value (eg. just load up your smartcard and use it whenever you want). If you want a reservation, that will be treated slightly differently.

In summary: one set of concessions, one set of ticket types, one set of zones & fares. In otherwords, an integrated solution for Victoria.

Regards

Adrian Webb
Victorian Fare Policy Manager

Posted: 05 Jul 2006 14:44

Contact Revenue

When I travel from a Suburban location, to a country location, such as Narre Warren to Tallarook, I hate the idea that I have already paid for Southern Cross to Craigiburn, but I have no choice but to pay for it again in the V/Line ticket. Will this change under the new plans?

This gets worse with the new system as I understand it. My Vline ticket also includes a Zone 1 travel. Why can I not get just a zone 2+3 metcard, and a Southern Cross to Tallarook v/line ticket of which includes Met zone 1, say from Dandenong or Narre Warren?

tranzitjim

Just get a ticket that says the following:
Met Zone 2+3
To Melbourne SC Z1
To Tallarook.

here is a example of my freinds ticket, when he comes to Melbournes and wants to travel in to Zone 2.