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I don't think bids like this do have any hope of winning. It's all about profile raising, changing perceptions and promoting themselves as a destination.

And I think such a perception of things is highly condescending. It's your right to think Lviv's chances are slim, it's unworthy and beneath to say the 2nd part of the sentence. I m not backing anyone but I think Lviv sincerely and truly bids because they want to host the Games. It's not like their bid was eccentric and zany. Questioning this is an attack of quite a low level. I know your city is considering bidding, but that doesn't mean you shouldn"t have the respect that all opponents owe each other.

Such poor statements will not make your cause progress in any way. No offense.

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They might want to but I don't think they seriously believe they can win. That isn't a criticism it's just what I think is true. In the same way for example that I don't think Manchester ever thought they could realistically beat the likes of Sydney and Beijing. It doesn't make their endeavours any less worthy and I wish them well in it.

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And I think such a perception of things is highly condescending. It's your right to think Lviv's chances are slim, it's unworthy and beneath to say the 2nd part of the sentence. I m not backing anyone but I think Lviv sincerely and truly bids because they want to host the Games. It's not like their bid was eccentric and zany. Questioning this is an attack of quite a low level. I know your city is considering bidding, but that doesn't mean you shouldn"t have the respect that all opponents owe each other.

Such poor statements will not make your cause progress in any way. No offense.

I don't think what he wrote was an attack or a negative. I truly believe that any city bidding has to really believe it could win and want to host a games, but raising profile is often brought up as a justification for a city to bid as well - and there's nothing wrong with that!

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And I think such a perception of things is highly condescending. It's your right to think Lviv's chances are slim, it's unworthy and beneath to say the 2nd part of the sentence. I m not backing anyone but I think Lviv sincerely and truly bids because they want to host the Games. It's not like their bid was eccentric and zany. Questioning this is an attack of quite a low level. I know your city is considering bidding, but that doesn't mean you shouldn"t have the respect that all opponents owe each other.

Such poor statements will not make your cause progress in any way. No offense.

I don't think Markus criticism is unfair of negative. Sure, all the cities CAN participate in the game, but like a game NOT ALL are capable to play. Fair or unfair, these are the rules. Like you said, they had reasons, but also the reasons can be questionable in the respectul opinion of others.

And I agree in that sentence: Lviv bid is all about profile raising, changing perceptions and promoting themselves as a destination. Nothing bad with that, but not pretend being prudish in the sense of "poor" countries looking for an Olympic dream. It's not condescending.

Also, reading the oher comments for Lviv are right: The bid is also a political measure to keep things calm with the clear division between Western and Eastern Ukraine. Using the bid -Even unsuccesful- can bring some element of consideration by national pride.

I think Lviv sincerely and truly bids because they want to host the Games

Well, with many aspects in consideration, especially in a country with a clear political and social division like Ukraine, it would be so naive to think about that.

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I don't think what he wrote was an attack or a negative. I truly believe that any city bidding has to really believe it could win and want to host a games, but raising profile is often brought up as a justification for a city to bid as well - and there's nothing wrong with that!

I know SirRols, but there's a difference between saying a city doesn't believe 100% in its chance to win, and completely discredit an opponent bid saying they're bidding just to "promote themselves as a destination". Once more, I'm neutral, but this is very unfair to the Ukrainians, and I honestly think it's not true. "They" aren't a real bid, and "we" are. This is what is implied in such a comment.

That's just my opinion and I think there are better ways to promote your own bid. I'm from the so-called Western world too, but I think a lot of westerners (for some reason, lots of them coming from northern Europe, not just on GB) should be careful of this outdated and backward feeling of superiority that sparks in their statements. Especially towards Eastern Europe, Africa, South America or Asia. Western cities who've made that mistake in the past regretted it very soon after, anyway.

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Probably the best example is Baku. They've put in a number of Olympic bids, but were never taken seriously by many people here and such attitudes indeed proved correct when they failed to make any short lists of the races they entered. But there's no doubt their profile has benefitted tremendously from their bidding to the point where they now have been trusted with the first Euro games.

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Also, reading the oher comments for Lviv are right: The bid is also a political measure to keep things calm with the clear division between Western and Eastern Ukraine. Using the bid -Even unsuccesful- can bring some element of consideration by national pride.

Hmmm...Let's imagine we're Ukrainian. How can we solve our biggest political problems, and the division between the East & West of the country? Hell, of course ! Let's bid for the 2022 Olympics !

Are you serious ?

Even if that was a tiny bit true, having a political goal in bidding doesn't mean you don't want the Games too. I guess you could say the same when Ukraine co-hosted the last Euro and they did a briliant job, where we saw a population that also was seemingly glad to host it. And you could say ANY country has a political goal behind a bid then? Maybe scandiavians want their people to forget about the huge public debt growing? Maybe they want to make them forget about the raising social issues, immigration debates, and surging far-right movements? Every country has its political problems. So the point is invalid, and to be honest I'm not here to discuss politics.

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I know SirRols, but there's a difference between saying a city doesn't believe 100% in its chance to win, and completely discredit an opponent bid saying they're bidding just to "promote themselves as a destination". Once more, I'm neutral, but this is very unfair to the Ukrainians, and I honestly think it's not true. "They" aren't a real bid, and "we" are. This is what is implied in such a comment.

Well, if we considerate the aspects of "poor countries" yes is unfair. But if we considerate this as a race with clear political, economical and technical values, the subjective aspect isn't relevant. Again all the cities CAN participate in the game, but like a game NOT ALL are capable to play.

Probably the best example is Baku. They've put in a number of Olympic bids, but were never taken seriously by many people here and such attitudes indeed proved correct when they failed to make any short lists of the races they entered. But there's no doubt their profile has benefitted tremendously from their bidding to the point where they now have been trusted with the first Euro games.

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Probably the best example is Baku. They've put in a number of Olympic bids, but were never taken seriously by many people here and such attitudes indeed proved correct when they failed to make any short lists of the races they entered. But there's no doubt their profile has benefitted tremendously from their bidding to the point where they now have been trusted with the first Euro games.

Well there you go. I agree with that, but the fact that they didn't make the short list didn't, in any way, proved the superior and idiotic comments right. I'm happy to see you too though, think this kind of comment doesn't honour those who made them at all.

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Hmmm...Let's imagine we're Ukrainian. How can we solve our biggest political problems, and the division between the East & West of the country? Hell, of course ! Let's bid for the 2022 Olympics !

Are you serious ?

Even if that was a tiny bit true, having a political goal in bidding doesn't mean you don't want the Games too. I guess you could say the same when Ukraine co-hosted the last Euro and they did a briliant job, where we saw a population that also was seemingly glad to host it. And you could say ANY country has a political goal behind a bid then? Maybe scandiavians want their people to forget about the huge public debt growing? Maybe they want to make them forget about the raising social issues, immigration debates, and surging far-right movements? Every country has its political problems. So the point is invalid, and to be honest I'm not here to discuss politics.

No, because MOST of the motivations for an Olympic Games have political undertones. Rome 1960, Tokyo 1964, Munich 1972, Seoul 1988. Denying the political undertones is living in a naive world.

Maybe scandiavians want their people to forget about the huge public debt growing? Maybe they want to make them forget about the raising social issues, immigration debates, and surging far-right movements? Every country has its political problems. So the point is invalid, and to be honest I'm not here to discuss politics.

When Ukraine has the same levels of human development, macroeconomics and welfare state as Scandinavia, we can compare equally both countries. Scandinavia, even with their issues, has the proper experience, infrastructure and economic resources to pull off.

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No, because MOST of the motivations for an Olympic Games have political undertones. Rome 1960, Tokyo 1964, Munich 1972, Seoul 1988. Denying the political undertones is living in a naive world.

You're too political. We should keep politics in mind, not be obsessed by it. Maybe you're on the wrong forum ?

When Ukraine has the same levels of human development, macroeconomics and welfare state as Scandinavia, we can compare equally both countries. Scandinavia, even with their issues, has the proper experience, infrastructure and economic resources to pull off.

Yes....So ? You said political problems could be the real hidden reasons for a bid. I'm saying everyone does have political problems, including Scandinavia. I see no relation with human developement and so on.

And once more, I see no relation with my comment. I don't care how developed a country is. I'm talking respect, and play fair with your opponents.

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You're too political. We should keep politics in mind, not be obsessed by it. Maybe you're on the wrong forum ?

Yes....So ? You said political problems could be the real hidden reasons for a bid. I'm saying everyone does have political problems, including Scandinavia. I see no relation with human developement and so on.

And once more, I see no relation with my comment. I don't care how developed a country is. I'm talking respect, and play fair with your opponents.

The matter's closed to me.

First yes, all countries have problems, but even so, you CAN'T compare the problems between Scandinavia and Ukraine, that was my point. Scandinavia have problems like Germany, but these problems aren't comparable to Ukraine.

Second We should keep politics in mind, not be obsessed by it. Maybe you're on the wrong forum ?

Pixie, I recomend you read example of articles and studies about the political aspects in these type of events. Denying for yourself is living in a naive state. It's not obsession, it's rational thinking and I count examples with these principal variables (Since Berlin 1936 until Rio 2016). But anyway, you seem as an emotive person who believe we're in a fantasy world Maybe you're wrong in this forum and should compete for the "poor countries" like Mother Theresa.

And third - About fair play. I agree, but even with that, the truth hurts...

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And I think such a perception of things is highly condescending. It's your right to think Lviv's chances are slim, it's unworthy and beneath to say the 2nd part of the sentence. I m not backing anyone but I think Lviv sincerely and truly bids because they want to host the Games. It's not like their bid was eccentric and zany. Questioning this is an attack of quite a low level. I know your city is considering bidding, but that doesn't mean you shouldn"t have the respect that all opponents owe each other.

Such poor statements will not make your cause progress in any way. No offense.

How could his statement be critical?

That's just my opinion and I think there are better ways to promote your own bid. I'm from the so-called Western world too, but I think a lot of westerners (for some reason, lots of them coming from northern Europe, not just on GB) should be careful of this outdated and backward feeling of superiority that sparks in their statements. Especially towards Eastern Europe, Africa, South America or Asia. Western cities who've made that mistake in the past regretted it very soon after, anyway.

I am from Japan and as far as I experienced I have never felt westerners here are having any superiority.

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I am from Japan and as far as I experienced I have never felt westerners here are having any superiority.

First yes, all countries have problems, but even so, you CAN'T compare the problems between Scandinavia and Ukraine, that was my point. Scandinavia have problems like Germany, but these problems aren't comparable to Ukraine.

Second We should keep politics in mind, not be obsessed by it. Maybe you're on the wrong forum ?

Pixie, I recomend you read example of articles and studies about the political aspects in these type of events. Denying for yourself is living in a naive state. It's not obsession, it's rational thinking and I count examples with these principal variables (Since Berlin 1936 until Rio 2016). But anyway, you seem as an emotive person who believe we're in a fantasy world Maybe you're wrong in this forum and should compete for the "poor countries" like Mother Theresa.

And third - About fair play. I agree, but even with that, the truth hurts...

Anyway case closed.

Haha...Vaya hombre !

I happen to be in my last year of studies in political science, so I m not sure I need any additional reading than those I choose for myself. But thanks anyway . When I'm here I like to think about something else, give my mind some air. But some people seem to just be addicted.

Thanks for comparing me to Mother Theresa too. It's a very dignifying comparison to me (i'm younger n sexier, but still). I just don't think I deserve this comparison? I just like respect in a race and reject superior attitudes. Maybe you enjoy it and grovel in front of it, and like dirty competition. To each their own values and I respect it. I have nothing against 'poor' countries, as you say, but I don't systematically defend them either. Nowhere you've seen me defend Mexico, as an example.

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Just because Markus is from Stockholm (or me from Munich), he's not allowed to have an opinion on other bids' intentions?

Besides, I highly doubt any statement here in this forum would have any influence on the vote in 2015, unless it came from a bid official.

Especially, for a political sciences student, it should be obvious that many - if not all - Olympic bids have a political backstory, some more hidden than others, but that doesn't make it less true and denying this is indeed naive in my very humble opinion.

Back to facts about Lviv: They've never hosted anything major in Winter Sports so far, if anything they're at the stage where Pyeongchang was 15 years ago when they started their plans, but minus the economic strength of South Korea to back this all up. I completely agree with Markus' assessment of the reasoning behind their bid.

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Just because Markus is from Stockholm (or me from Munich), he's not allowed to have an opinion on other bids' intentions?

Besides, I highly doubt any statement here in this forum would have any influence on the vote in 2015, unless it came from a bid official.

Especially, for a political sciences student, it should be obvious that many - if not all - Olympic bids have a political backstory, some more hidden than others, but that doesn't make it less true and denying this is indeed naive in my very humble opinion.

Back to facts about Lviv: They've never hosted anything major in Winter Sports so far, if anything they're at the stage where Pyeongchang was 15 years ago when they started their plans, but minus the economic strength of South Korea to back this all up. I completely agree with Markus' assessment of the reasoning behind their bid.

Returning of that, 100% agreed with you. I still perplexed by Pixie being a political sciences student I mean, she should be more "realistic" (My bachelor degree is in International Relations) but anyway, some people lives under the bubble of Miss Universe -I want the World peace- I guess . I knew some girls like that.

BTW - Mother Theresa wasn't exactly a nice person according to many witnesses and she's not exactly loved by many people from the slums in India. Calling her "elitist", "manipulative" and "despicable person" who doesn't help people... But being sexy could help a lot

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Especially, for a political sciences student, it should be obvious that many - if not all - Olympic bids have a political backstory, some more hidden than others, but that doesn't make it less true and denying this is indeed naive in my very humble opinion.

Why do you pretend not to understand what I'm saying? Did you read the "initial" post ?? It's frustrating.

First of all, I think I'm respecting everybody here - i'm just giving my opinion - I don't call anyone anything and I do not allow you to call me "naive". I'm not naive, but I try not to be excessive and one-sided either, like saying a city bids just to "promote themselves as a destination".

Had you read well, you would know I never denied the political motivations behind Lviv's decision to bid. My post had absolutely nothing to do with it. Saying there are political motivations; fine. Saying that a city doesn't actually want to bid and call it a fake bid, is a lack of respect. Just because there are political motivations, doesn't mean there's no will to have the Games. And doesn't mean the Ukrainian people do not want the Games. You can't just discredit it. It shouldn't be too hard to understand.

But you seem to think it's ok to act like that and make such comments, then great, I totally respect it , we just have different visions and we're just not behaving according to the same system of values. To each their own.

Tschüss !

(or me from Munich)

I completely agree with Markus' assessment of the reasoning behind their bid.

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I don't doubt the Ukrainians DO want the games. And I'd accept that even if there's people on the bid team that recognise their chances aren't the strongest, they deep down hope that fortune will shine on them.

But I don't think bidders ever go into it totally, or even mainly, altruistically. At the end of the day, the games really are a big vanity project, and I'm sure most bidders and bid supporters are motivated by pride and nationalistic fervour – or just because they have heard what a great exhilarating party they are – than any burning desire to give something back to the youth of the world.

And even if a bid couches its motivations in altruistic terms – “we want to spread the spirit of Olympism”, “we want to inspire the next generation of youth” etc, etc – in these days and times when ever more people are sceptical of the costs and benefits of the games, bid committees have to be far more hard-nosed in the reasons they justify their bids to their home audiences. Things like bringing in more tourism and investment, regenerating run-down city precincts, raising the city's international profile, uniting the country etc are the far more pragmatic justifications they have to pitch to their public at home rather than “we owe it to the world to do our part to foster peace and togetherness”.

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I don't doubt the Ukrainians DO want the games. And I'd accept that even if there's people on the bid team that recognise their chances aren't the strongest, they deep down hope that fortune will shine on them.

But I don't think bidders ever go into it totally, or even mainly, altruistically. At the end of the day, the games really are a big vanity project, and I'm sure most bidders and bid supporters are motivated by pride and nationalistic fervour – or just because they have heard what a great exhilarating party they are – than any burning desire to give something back to the youth of the world.

And even if a bid couches its motivations in altruistic terms – “we want to spread the spirit of Olympism”, “we want to inspire the next generation of youth” etc, etc – in these days and times when ever more people are sceptical of the costs and benefits of the games, bid committees have to be far more hard-nosed in the reasons they justify their bids to their home audiences. Things like bringing in more tourism and investment, regenerating run-down city precincts, raising the city's international profile, uniting the country etc are the far more pragmatic justifications they have to pitch to their public at home rather than “we owe it to the world to do our part to foster peace and togetherness”.

Well that's what I call a more moderate, centered position, with definitely more nuance than what was said about Lviv by its direct opponents.