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Graded means that their is a slight difference in the weight of the hammers depending of the pitch (lower pitch = heavier hammer, higher pitch = lighter). It is an attempt at replicating the fact that, on a real piano, the hammers (and more so the dampers) are of different weight and size depending on their location. On a good acoustic piano everything is done to minimize the difference in pressure needed to play a low A or a high C but you can still feel it. That's what the "graded" part attempt to replicate.

Graded (or progressive) means that, like on a real piano, the lower notes are slightly heavier to play whilst the treble end gets lighter and lighter. But as members of piano forums have said many times, this is a very small feature of authenticity compared with the fuss that is made about it by the marketing departments of these DPs.

Much more important is how the main hammer action feels and responds. However, most DPs have 'graded' action, probably because its easy to implement and it sounds impressive in the sales brochures. The feature is minimal in practice and most people say they hardly notice it.

Also, ironically, some makers of fine grand acoustic pianos try to eliminate this 'graded' effect because it is regarded as a fault, not an advantage.

Graded means that their is a slight difference in the weight of the hammers depending of the pitch (lower pitch = heavier hammer, higher pitch = lighter). It is an attempt at replicating the fact that, on a real piano, the hammers (and more so the dampers) are of different weight and size depending on their location. On a good acoustic piano everything is done to minimize the difference in pressure needed to play a low A or a high C but you can still feel it. That's what the "graded" part attempt to replicate.

How would you rate the Graded Hammer (GH) action as well as the Graded Hammer Standard (GHS) action which is used on the less expensive Arius models?

I'm not a big fan of GH action. I feel it unnatural, but this is just an opinion, I know people who like it. I like way more GHS as it is very responsive. The down side of GHS is that it is very lightweight so when you switch to an acoustic piano (or a heavier digital) you may find it tiring as you got accustomed to a very light action. Anyway we must have in account that the same action may feel different depending on factors like amplification, speakers, sound engine, dynamic layers...

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Is the Graded Hammer (GH) action closely modeled after the action of a real piano (upright, grand or both) or is it completely different?

It tries to mimic the gravity drop of grand actions but using some workarounds such as being the hammer under the key. A real piano key is a long fulcrum. Yamaha GH, Roland PHA, Kawai RH and the like are different. This is a GH action picture:

An this one is a real action:

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Would I have difficulty adapting to the action of a real piano after practicing for a long time on my Yamaha YDP-S51 or would it immediately feel natural to play a real piano?

It's hard to tell as every acoustic piano, even same make, model and year, feels different. Also a perfectly maintained and tuned piano feels different than the same out of tuned and not regulated. There are infinite variables. Anyway I think that for a person who only plays on a digital piano it's at least disconcerting as you get a lot of resonance and harmonics that no digital piano (even the best ones) can imitate. Also the touch makes a difference.

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Can I hope to acquire solid piano technique (touch, tone, velocity, trills, ...) by practicing on my Yamaha YDP-S51 or should I consider switching to an upright acoustic piano?

I think that if one wants to become a serious player, sooner or later must have an acoustic piano. The ideal is owning a grand piano but a tall upright can also do a good job. You can keep your digital piano as it is a wonderful tool.

I think that if one wants to become a serious player, sooner or later must have an acoustic piano. The ideal is owning a grand piano but a tall upright can also do a good job. You can keep your digital piano as it is a wonderful tool.

In my opinion as a 'serious player', most acoustic upright actions are inferior to high end digital pianos such as the Kawai CA95, which, crucially, are simulating the action of a grand, not an upright.

I think that if one wants to become a serious player, sooner or later must have an acoustic piano. The ideal is owning a grand piano but a tall upright can also do a good job. You can keep your digital piano as it is a wonderful tool.

In my opinion as a 'serious player', most acoustic upright actions are inferior to high end digital pianos such as the Kawai CA95, which, crucially, are simulating the action of a grand, not an upright.

That is both right and wrongRight in terms of "easiness" to play: high end DP are much closer in that way to grand pianoRight in terms of controls alsoWrong in terms of "feeling" the actionsAnd also you have to take in account other points: if you have to practice or take lessons on an upright, you will have hard time coming from "High end DP"..the action is far "too easy"Everything depends on what you are looking for, or on what you get used to play

I spent most of the day yesterday in a big piano showroom and ended up playing all the pianos there - including the 20 or so uprights (some new, some reconditioned, but all regulated and tuned) as well as the several grands ranging from baby grands to concert grands, plus a couple of old reconditioned Steinways with ivory key tops. I normally stay away from verticals these days, but I had a lot of time to kill between a masterclass and a concert...

And the exercise (a rather pleasant one, I should add ) brought home to me again what a huge range of actions there are among acoustic pianos. And the heaviest weren't the grands but the uprights. The grading also varied enormously. But the easiest to play on were the big new grands, with very swift action, minimal friction, and fairly low inertia. And unobtrusive grading.

But common to all is the 'notchy' feel (to a greater or lesser extent) to the key action, which (as I've mentioned before in other threads) is unavoidable because of the escapement action, but which Yamaha has seen fit to ignore in their current DP lineup, reserving it for their AvantGrands and NU1.

As to whether it would be easy to play on an acoustic after practising exclusively on the Arius, I think it depends on whether you have had prior experience of acoustics, and how long for; maybe also on how good a pianist you already are (i.e. how developed is your current technique). Personally, if I was in the OP's shoes, I'd try to play on acoustics as often as possible - and as many different pianos as possible, if you want to be able to adapt easily to playing on different acoustic pianos.

"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I think that if one wants to become a serious player, sooner or later must have an acoustic piano. The ideal is owning a grand piano but a tall upright can also do a good job. You can keep your digital piano as it is a wonderful tool.

In my opinion as a 'serious player', most acoustic upright actions are inferior to high end digital pianos such as the Kawai CA95, which, crucially, are simulating the action of a grand, not an upright.

That is both right and wrongRight in terms of "easiness" to play: high end DP are much closer in that way to grand pianoRight in terms of controls alsoWrong in terms of "feeling" the actionsAnd also you have to take in account other points: if you have to practice or take lessons on an upright, you will have hard time coming from "High end DP"..the action is far "too easy"Everything depends on what you are looking for, or on what you get used to play

Well if you take this to the logical extreme, you may as well by the worst piano you can find, so that it's not too easy for you to play.

if you have to practice or take lessons on an upright, you will have hard time coming from "High end DP"..the action is far "too easy"

Seems a bit perverse to actually avoid a piano/DP action because it's too easy, though. As Bennevis says above, high end grand pianos are relatively light and easy to control compared to a cheap upright piano. So if you followed the above reasoning, you would never buy a concert Steinway, for example, because it's 'too easy', and you'd not be able to play on another piano if you had to.

It is true that this is a problem for working pianists and for piano pupils taking exams and so on. But I doubt any of these people would buy themselves a poor piano because they might, one day, have to play on one elsewhere...

In terms of action, we all have our preferences, and they matter because if you buy a digital, you will spend nearly all your playing time on it for a long time. Most of us spend very little time performing outside our homes.

In terms of whether you can acquire good technique on one action vs another, there is a ton of variety in both acoustic and (to a lesser extent) digital actions. As long as the keyboard is fully weighted and reasonably responsive you can acquire the techniques you need for all but the most advanced piano playing. If you are looking to hone your techniques for giving a serious concert, you will want to play high quality acoustic grands, which are what you will perform on.

As a pianist, you have to adjust from one action to another. It's just a fact of life. As long as the action you are practicing on is not an outlier (super light, super heavy, super shallow, etc.) the adjustment to a new piano is no big deal. Most digitals are not outliers in this respect.

Anyway, get the action that most pleases you because you will be playing on it a lot, not because you believe that it's necessary to use a particular action in order to improve as a pianist. Concentration, time spent practicing, techniques practiced, lessons taken, and many other things are more important than the particular variety of action you practice on.

I agree with enzo and bennevis. That notch, engagement and disengagement of the hammer, on an acoustic is currently not replicated on high end DP's, even those claiming to have 'escapement', and this makes those DP's easier to play. IMHO. Whether you as a player like that or not is your own choice. I also agree with Dave Horne's philosophy of practising on an action slightly heavy, or clunky, as after that it's all downhill when you encounter a piano or DP not your own. Until pianos become redundant, or replaced by DP's, or I have no desire to play piano and just my own DP, my preference is for an action that is similar to a piano, and DP's currently don't give you that (except for hybrids). This in not an argument for one or the other, you as player make the choice, and no doubt the more experienced you are the easier it is to adapt.

In my opinion as a 'serious player', most acoustic upright actions are inferior to high end digital pianos such as the Kawai CA95, which, crucially, are simulating the action of a grand, not an upright.

While I do think that action is very important, I also think the sonic response to that pressure over the action also it is. I think that upright actions are been discredited in some circles, sometimes unjustifiably. While it is true that real grand actions are the best ones and the gravity drop is important for the piano technique, there are very good upright actions that can be perfectly playable.

I don't think a fake digital grand action substitute is superior to a nice upright action placed, for instance, on a Yamaha U1. Of course, if we take into account other factors such as resonance, "authenticy of touch", etc, the digital pianos only "win" when compared to the lousiest acoustic uprights.

This is my personal list of preferences about pianos ordered from best to worst (sorry for stating the obvious):

In my opinion as a 'serious player', most acoustic upright actions are inferior to high end digital pianos such as the Kawai CA95, which, crucially, are simulating the action of a grand, not an upright.

I don't think a fake digital grand action substitute is superior to a nice upright action placed, for instance, on a Yamaha U1. Of course, if we take into account other factors such as resonance, "authenticy of touch", etc, the digital pianos only "win" when compared to the lousiest acoustic uprights.

I totally agree, Carlo. Of all the DPs I've played, I still find that my Yamaha U3 has a better touch than any of the "miniaturised" hammer action keyboards. Now perhaps some of that is my vast preference to hearing real strings on a real soundboard, but I find my U3 more real and more responsive to my input.

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This is my personal list of preferences about pianos ordered from best to worst (sorry for stating the obvious):

- Concert grands- Grand pianos (170 cm minimum)- Tall uprights (Yamaha B1 as a minimum)- High end digital pianos- Baby grands (most of what I played are awaful, a wannabe instrument)- Cheap digital pianos / short uprights such as B1- Awful uprights

I think that if one wants to become a serious player, sooner or later must have an acoustic piano. The ideal is owning a grand piano but a tall upright can also do a good job. You can keep your digital piano as it is a wonderful tool.

In my opinion as a 'serious player', most acoustic upright actions are inferior to high end digital pianos such as the Kawai CA95, which, crucially, are simulating the action of a grand, not an upright.

A good upright piano still beats even high-end digitals in terms of dynamics and responsiveness. Digital action can be faster though.I do not like the action of many entry- to mid-level uprights, but a fine upright gives much better experience.To play some advanced repertoire, I struggle to get the dynamics I want but easily get it from a fine acoustic.Well, I can beautifully play Tchaikovsky 'Autumn Song' on my digital, but it is easier to do on a good acoustic (and I had an upright piano before).I would say you can learn on a digital, but closer to mid-high intermediate level you need to practice from time to time on acoustic if the goal is to play acoustic.

A good upright costs more than a high end digital. I would much rather practice on a CA65 than an upright piano of the same price. Of course a 'fake' digital action is not as good as a 'fine' acoustic action, but it doesn't make sense to compare things which are so different in cost. Also, yes responsiveness is as important as touch, but on a cheap upright piano, poor action = poor responsiveness anyway. I find I can get more colour and character out of a good digital.

The GH action on the S51 is realistic enough for practising on, learning the notes etc. The only problem I find is that the plastic key caps are a bit slippery when doing fast runs. Maybe it's just my technique!

The action is reasonably good at trills, fast repeated notes, etc. Better than you'd expect. The half pedalling is very good too.

As far as touch & tone go, that's where the big differences lie. The touch sensitivity of the S51 doesn't really match the real piano. Not nearly the same dynamic range, and it's hard to play pianissimo. Plus also I tend to play the S51 with the volume turned down quite low, so when I play the real piano it's, like, 'what's this enormous sound??!'

Of course if you only ever play the digital one, then its great. You can play nice, musical performances to your family etc. But if you ever wanted to show off your skills on a real piano make sure you can spend lots of time practising on one first.

A good upright costs more than a high end digital. I would much rather practice on a CA65 than an upright piano of the same price. Of course a 'fake' digital action is not as good as a 'fine' acoustic action, but it doesn't make sense to compare things which are so different in cost. Also, yes responsiveness is as important as touch, but on a cheap upright piano, poor action = poor responsiveness anyway. I find I can get more colour and character out of a good digital.

You don't have to buy a new acoustic though. I bought a 45 year old Yamaha U3 in good condition for cheaper than a CA65. I'd wager that even at 45 years old, this thing will outlast a new CA65. It's as solid as a rock - and it's a vastly superior playing experience for me. The only thing it doesn't do it rapid repetition.

Not necessarily. I play Ondine on it with no troubles. It's not so much that uprights won't play repeated notes quickly, more that they do it in a different way. Certainly you can't get them repeating as fast as a grand, but you can't necessarily get a DP to repeat as fast as a grand either. The AvantGrand is an example of this - they are not even as good as my U3 for rapid repeats.

Practicing tremolo on a good upright like a U3 can actually build your technique. Because it's harder to do, when I played Ondine on a grand, it was so much easier. The difference is that on an upright, you have to release the key a bit higher (about 3/4 of its travel), and the damper will come down in between each note. On a grand, if you release the key halfway, then press again, the note will sound but the damper doesn't activate. If the rapid notes are to be played with the pedal down, the dampers aren't relevant, then it's just about how far you have to release the key. I don't have any trouble with the rapid chord motif at that runs through Ondine on my upright - it's just more effort, but I believe it is helping my technique rather than hurting it. I'm sure Scarbo would be a different story - but I'm not up to that standard yet anyway. The thing is, the tone for Ravel is so much better with a big upright. I've played Ravel on a DP and it leaves me cold. My U3 doesn't. Being a Yamaha, it has a bright clarity that really works for Ravel.

The right hand motif in Ondine doesn't need to be perfectly clean and even, that's sort of the point of it. Youre right that Scarbo however, or Alborada del Gracioso, or the toccata from Tombeau, are different, and I've practiced all of these on many grands, many uprights and digital pianos so I am aware of the practicalities.

The right hand motif in Ondine doesn't need to be perfectly clean and even, that's sort of the point of it. Youre right that Scarbo however, or Alborada del Gracioso, or the toccata from Tombeau, are different, and I've practiced all of these on many grands, many uprights and digital pianos so I am aware of the practicalities.

I practise Ondine exclusively on my digital at home, and played it at the weekend on the Yamaha CFX (and CF6), with absolutely no problems. (I didn't try it on the uprights there.)

But I remember attempting to play it on an AvantGrand some weeks ago - and finding it extremely difficult. And Scarlatti's K141 was next to impossible at high speed on the AG. There's something odd about the AG's key action - maybe the friction - which isn't there on the well-prepped acoustic grands.

"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Some acoustic grands are just hard to play. The action tends to be a lot heavier on some larger grands. I played K141 on a Bosendorfer imperial and found it much harder than on some of the smaller practice grands I frequent. But it was hard in a good way.

The right hand motif in Ondine doesn't need to be perfectly clean and even, that's sort of the point of it. Youre right that Scarbo however, or Alborada del Gracioso, or the toccata from Tombeau, are different, and I've practiced all of these on many grands, many uprights and digital pianos so I am aware of the practicalities.

I practise Ondine exclusively on my digital at home, and played it at the weekend on the Yamaha CFX (and CF6), with absolutely no problems. (I didn't try it on the uprights there.)

But I remember attempting to play it on an AvantGrand some weeks ago - and finding it extremely difficult. And Scarlatti's K141 was next to impossible at high speed on the AG. There's something odd about the AG's key action - maybe the friction - which isn't there on the well-prepped acoustic grands.

I think there is something wrong with the sensor placement on the AGs. Perhaps they don't even use 3-sensors? For all the talk of sensors in DPs, if you don't get them in exactly the right place, the thing will never play naturally and the repeats will always be terrible. Watching Cyprien Katsaris absolutely butchering some tremolo on an AG was enough to convince me that the AG is not for me.