"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Dan74 wrote:In the sense of "bare awareness" this not knowing is indeed it. Letting go of all clinging, including clinging to khandas, what is there to know?

Yes, probably this inner compulsion, this strong need that we have to "know" and build a mental construct that explains everything is evidence that deep down inside we know it's all empty and it scares us.

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,' then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is, 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.'"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,' then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is, 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.'"

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Ayojjhans on the banks of the Ganges River. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?

"Now suppose that in the autumn — when it's raining in fat, heavy drops — a water bubble were to appear & disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?

TMingyur wrote:Exactly because everything is a dependent arising, i.e. "void of own-being" we are able know. We know through validating experience.

Kind regards

So am i correct in gleaning from this that you are suggesting something like the metaphor of two mirrors facing each other?A dynamic relationship of subject and object exchanging themselves for each other? Knowingness arising from that ?

Imo ts the best thing anybody has said so far on the subject, either at dharmawheel or here. At least the best thing im able to understand That is if im getting your meaning.

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

TMingyur wrote:Exactly because everything is a dependent arising, i.e. "void of own-being" we are able know. We know through validating experience.

Kind regards

So am i correct in gleaning from this that you are suggesting something like the metaphor of two mirrors facing each other?A dynamic relationship of subject and object exchanging themselves for each other? Knowingness arising from that ?

If you can find some "truth" in this then fine. However I do not feel being able to say "Yes the metaphor you are suggesting is what I wanted to express." simply because I used different expressions and I did not have such a metaphor in mind when I wrote this.I would however concede that "dependent arising" implies "dynamics" and that it implies some sort of "interdepence" in the context of talking about the "knowing subject" and the "object known". This interdependence may also be likened to an iterative process which does not necessarily have to cover "longer" periods of time but may be completed "instantaneously" too, depending on circumstances.Caution: At first glance it may appear as if "ultimately" "knowing subject" and "object known" are no different. But this is an invalid conclusion. However the conclusion that "ultimately" they are different is invalid too.

TMingyur wrote: ... At first glance it may appear as if "ultimately" "knowing subject" and "object known" are no different. But this is an invalid conclusion. However the conclusion that "ultimately" they are different is invalid too.Kind regards

Yeah that sounds right

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig