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True, but it's no starship either. Plus it was launched on a rocket through airspace that was cleared for miles in each direction, and landed under tight radar controlled conditions at Florida or California.

Had there been fifty shuttles flying in conditions where half of them were in orbit at the same time working together they probably would have running lights...or not, I don't know how much running lights weigh, or what kind of housing they'd need to survive re-entry, or how much that housing would weigh...

That's why UFO's are easier to talk about, you can make it up as you go because ALIENS!

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,984

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

I don't think we're at the stage yet where you can declare victory and walk away. I, for one, am still far from convinced by what you allege about Roswell.
I looked at your 'exotic materials' link, and two things struck me.
Firstly, I could not find anything in there that showed that the materials were of extra-terrestrial origin. The fact that the various witnesses did not know what they were looking at in no way supports the idea that this was alien technology. Moreover, at the bottom of each page is what seems to me to be a perfectly good explanation as to what the materials actually were. I'm thinking specifically of the wire and of the tape here.
Secondly, the reaction of the witnesses to their discovery seem rather strange. There is mention of the wood being uncuttable and unburnable; the wire was extremely difficult to snap, and the metal wouldn't bend even if someone was jumping up and down on it.
So what this is basically saying is that all these people found what they thought was a crashed UFO, and immediately set about trying to break, damage or destroy the debris. Why? Surely, if this was the discovery of the century, you would be doing everything in your power to preserve it? The military witnesses quoted there seem unperturbed by the fact that what they eventually saw was what was left after the determined attempts of a posse of ranchers to wreak as much damage as they could.
I can also find no mention, in this or in any of the many, many things you have linked to, that describes exactly what tests were carried out on the debris to determine that it was of extra-terrestrial origin. Your links say that it was delivered to the office of such-and-such an officer, who pronounced it as being alien. How? How was that conclusion formed?
Finally, you have made repeated challenges to skeptics to prove the Project Mogul explanation valid. As has been explained before, it's your claim and thus your burden of proof. All you have given us so far is your assertion that it wasn't Project Mogul. What you are so far lacking is any positive evidence for your case. If you want to say that the Roswell wreckage was extra-terrestrial, then prove it. Link us to the studies that prove this, or, even better, is there any of this debris left in the public domain, or available through FOI, that you can produce? You are presenting a false dichotomy here, by stating that, if it isn't military, it must be alien, without showing any proof of alien origins, and discounting the possibility of other options.

I'm guessing that skyeagle409 has run away from this thread, much as he did from the previous two UFO threads I linked to upthread. Once the scrutiny of his claims becomes a bit too close for his comfort- i.e. when his claims begin to fall apart- he disappears, only to return a little while later with a fringe reset.
On the off chance that this is not the case, I'm bumping this.
Any time you have positive evidence of aliens, I'll be ready and waiting, old bean.

I'm guessing that skyeagle409 has run away from this thread, much as he did from the previous two UFO threads I linked to upthread. Once the scrutiny of his claims becomes a bit too close for his comfort- i.e. when his claims begin to fall apart- he disappears, only to return a little while later with a fringe reset.
On the off chance that this is not the case, I'm bumping this.
Any time you have positive evidence of aliens, I'll be ready and waiting, old bean.

I recently checked back on the history of the Roswell event, and was impressed by the videoed witness accounts of the debris material, particularly the film that was uncrushable and "spread out like water" on the table. The weather balloon explanation was a cover up supposedly for Project Mogul, and the paper lined foil in those photoshots was certainly very creased and crumpled, so did not fit the witness properties described. I simply ask, has anyone seen at close quarters material from a Mogul balloon that was a closer match in property terms to the witness description? The balloon envelope for example. Is the envelope material not crushable? Would samples of the material from Mogul, presented to the witnesses at the time helped them in the identification process and put the whole mystery to bed, earlier on?

I recently checked back on the history of the Roswell event, and was impressed by the videoed witness accounts of the debris material, particularly the film that was uncrushable and "spread out like water" on the table. The weather balloon explanation was a cover up supposedly for Project Mogul, and the paper lined foil in those photoshots was certainly very creased and crumpled, so did not fit the witness properties described. I simply ask, has anyone seen at close quarters material from a Mogul balloon that was a closer match in property terms to the witness description? The balloon envelope for example. Is the envelope material not crushable? Would samples of the material from Mogul, presented to the witnesses at the time helped them in the identification process and put the whole mystery to bed, earlier on?

If the balloon material or a reflective portion of the payload were some variety of aluminized plastic film (perhaps some early military-secret version of mylar, which was invented a few years later), that would likely crush a lot less and crease a lot less readily than the tin or aluminum foils, familiar at the time, that it would be mistaken for or compared to.

If the balloon material or a reflective portion of the payload were some variety of aluminized plastic film (perhaps some early military-secret version of mylar, which was invented a few years later), that would likely crush a lot less and crease a lot less readily than the tin or aluminum foils, familiar at the time, that it would be mistaken for or compared to.

That seems entirely plausible to me. If you've got used to aluminium foil which scrunches up into a ball and stays that way, an aluminised plastic film which scrunches but springs back would seem pretty weird and exotic.

That seems entirely plausible to me. If you've got used to aluminium foil which scrunches up into a ball and stays that way, an aluminised plastic film which scrunches but springs back would seem pretty weird and exotic.

Plausible to me too, so why was a sample not shown to the witnesses for comparison, to kill the speculation. The military would only have to say it is a terrestrial sample of a recently developed film, and no more. It just seems odd to me that there was no follow up in this respect, either for the witnesses or the media in general.

Plausible to me too, so why was a sample not shown to the witnesses for comparison, to kill the speculation. The military would only have to say it is a terrestrial sample of a recently developed film, and no more. It just seems odd to me that there was no follow up in this respect, either for the witnesses or the media in general.

There are several problems with this, especially in regards to the Roswell incident...

1. The Roswell Incident happened in 1947, but other than the initial "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer" report, and then the retraction of that story, the incident completely fell off the public radar for 30 years until some UFO buffs began promoting a range of conspiracy theories, claiming that alien spacecraft had crash-landed, and the bodies of the occupants had been recovered by the military, who then covered it up.

2. Many years had passed since the witnesses saw what they saw. It is common for eye-witness accounts to change over many years, often times becoming more elaborate and complex and with added detail on each retelling. Sometimes this can be genuinely recalled detail... "Oh, I just remembered......" , sometime it can be imagined, or mis-remembered, and sometimes it can be deliberately added by a less than honest witness.

3. The eye-witnesses still alive now, were at the time, young children, who do not make reliable witnesses anyway. If you are around, say, 50 or over, how many things from your childhood can you accurately recall, in detail now, 40+ years later?

4. Even worse, children are really open to the power of suggestion. When interviewing a child the interviewer has to be very, very careful not to "lead" the child into saying things the child thinks the interviewer wants to hear. This was not well understood back then, and many a travesty of justice has had its roots in poor technique interviewing child witnesses.

__________________► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

I'm guessing that skyeagle409 has run away from this thread, much as he did from the previous two UFO threads.

He also ran away from a similar thread he started on the Skeptic Society forum

The recent Tom Delonge publicity stunt (The UFO video) caused a range of woo fans to initially join in the forum conversation. A couple hard questions caused most of them to go away. The stunt worked. Tom Delonge raised 2.3 million dollars. We may win future forum debates but Tom Delonge gets to keep the 2.3 million.

Plausible to me too, so why was a sample not shown to the witnesses for comparison, to kill the speculation. The military would only have to say it is a terrestrial sample of a recently developed film, and no more. It just seems odd to me that there was no follow up in this respect, either for the witnesses or the media in general.

First, the silver material from Mogul was recovered by the military, and there aren't many civilians who saw or handled it. Mogul was a secret operation, and once a project gets that stamp those not cleared get zero information.

Bringing a sample of the material ran the risk of exposing technology to the Soviets.

Honestly, most folks forgot about it within a year.

The press never followed up because in 1947 everyone trusted the USAAF thanks to WWII. Roswell, NM., is in the middle of nowhere, and there was plenty of real news to cover back then, so a follow up would have been a waste of time.

He also ran away from a similar thread he started on the Skeptic Society forum

The recent Tom Delonge publicity stunt (The UFO video) caused a range of woo fans to initially join in the forum conversation. A couple hard questions caused most of them to go away. The stunt worked. Tom Delonge raised 2.3 million dollars. We may win future forum debates but Tom Delonge gets to keep the 2.3 million.

He also ran away from a similar thread he started on the Skeptic Society forum

The recent Tom Delonge publicity stunt (The UFO video) caused a range of woo fans to initially join in the forum conversation. A couple hard questions caused most of them to go away. The stunt worked. Tom Delonge raised 2.3 million dollars. We may win future forum debates but Tom Delonge gets to keep the 2.3 million.

Aubrey also ran away from the Roswell debates on CNN's fora 20 years ago.

I recall reading the Skeptical Inquirer’s report on the Roswell thing years ago, after Mogul had been declassified.
At the time (if I’m recalling correctly) they said that the Mylar material had been obtained from a firm that was using it for helium balloons.... And much of it was indeed printed with “symbols”..... Appropriate to party balloons.

I recall reading the Skeptical Inquirer’s report on the Roswell thing years ago, after Mogul had been declassified.
At the time (if I’m recalling correctly) they said that the Mylar material had been obtained from a firm that was using it for helium balloons.... And much of it was indeed printed with “symbols”..... Appropriate to party balloons.

I've always thought they were describing something like Mylar. I argued this for years with Aubrey/Skyeagle209, but he kept changing his description

First, the silver material from Mogul was recovered by the military, and there aren't many civilians who saw or handled it. Mogul was a secret operation, and once a project gets that stamp those not cleared get zero information.

Bringing a sample of the material ran the risk of exposing technology to the Soviets.

Honestly, most folks forgot about it within a year.

The press never followed up because in 1947 everyone trusted the USAAF thanks to WWII. Roswell, NM., is in the middle of nowhere, and there was plenty of real news to cover back then, so a follow up would have been a waste of time.

Much of that I can accept, barring that in my scenario, the "mylar" sample would be shown and retained by the military afterwards with no technical information about it provided to risk any security issues. Which also begs the question as to why the witnesses families did not retain a small sample of the recovered material themselves for a keepsake. It was certainly something, as a collector of curios, I would have done back then.

I recall reading the Skeptical Inquirer’s report on the Roswell thing years ago, after Mogul had been declassified.
At the time (if I’m recalling correctly) they said that the Mylar material had been obtained from a firm that was using it for helium balloons.... And much of it was indeed printed with “symbols”..... Appropriate to party balloons.

Those symbols were also on the strips of balsa-like wood, and it is thought that these symbols were originally on metallic tape that held the radar targets together and that the dyes migrated through the tape into the strips of wood.

I have seen this same effect with sticky labels. If you write on a sticky label and then stick it to some surfaces, if the label is there for a long time, when you remove the label, the writing can sometimes transfer through the label onto the surface.

In one of my conversations with Newton, quite by chance, a new and important revelation came to light. He was describing the color of the symbols on one of the balsa sticks and mentioned how it was faint and had somewhat of a mottled appearance because of the way that the dye had bled through onto the surface of the stick. This was a very important piece of information. The symbols that Newton saw on the debris in Ramey's office were on the surface of the stick, not on tape! The tape had apparently peeled away, probably because of several weeks' exposure to sunlight while it lay out in the desert. This serendipitous revelation immediately cleared up one of the biggest questions in my mind about the Roswell case -- how could Jesse Marcel, Sr., or Jesse Marcel, Jr., for that matter, not have recognized flower patterns on tape? The answer is now crystal clear. The symbols they saw were not on tape. What they saw were images of the original symbols from the dye that had bled through before the tape had peeled away. Jesse, Jr.'s testimony about the symbols definitely not being on tape was absolutely correct.

__________________► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,984

Originally Posted by Explorer

Much of that I can accept, barring that in my scenario, the "mylar" sample would be shown and retained by the military afterwards with no technical information about it provided to risk any security issues. Which also begs the question as to why the witnesses families did not retain a small sample of the recovered material themselves for a keepsake. It was certainly something, as a collector of curios, I would have done back then.

As I pointed out upthread, many of the witnesses spent much of their time trying to destroy the materials, by attempting to burn, cut, snap, tear and dent everything they could lay their hands on.
As with not keeping any, a rather curious reaction to what could have been the find of the century.

__________________spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously in past, present and future.(Einstein) Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time.

__________________► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.