Yeah, I won't let it keep me from enjoying the TOR era. _________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:53 am

Message

Rouge77Master

Joined: 22 Mar 2008Posts: 599

Reepicheep wrote:

That's a valid point. I would like to see more originality though- there's really nothing we haven't seen before and some of the implications are questionable (i.e. the Republic basing designs on the Sith Empire).

It's more like the Sith Empire basing their designs on the Republic.

People complained about this Sith Empire using the title of Moff and then Essential Atlas made it an old Republic title from it's earliest days that survived until the end of the New Sith Wars in Republic. It's a good retcon._________________Against apartheid, against racism, against Israel.

Last edited by Rouge77 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:57 am

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7814Location: Sailing into the unknown

I didn't know that. That's interesting.

It still doesn't explain the uniforms and heraldry though._________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Hold on a second. Uniforms? Just the uniforms, or are you including armour in that, too? The uniforms I don't have a problem with, because who, exactly, remembers a uniform for non frontline officers (ie, not in the public eye) 3,000 years ago?

And, let me just point out, the armour. The Sith armour is completely different. Taking a closer look at the Hope trailer, the Sith trooper armour is some weird black Mando/underwater suit amalgamation. It's the republic that has armour reminiscent of the Clone armour of the Clone War era._________________I am a Star Wars fan. That doesn't mean that I hate or love Jar Jar. That doesn't mean I hate or love Lucas, or agree or disagree 100% with him. That doesn't mean I prefer the PT over the OT, or vice versa. That doesn't mean I hate the EU, or even love all of it (or even read all of it). These are not prerequisites. Being a man is not a prerequisite. Being a geek is not a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is that I love something about Star Wars. I am a Star Wars fan.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:49 pm

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Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 577Location: Canada

To speak to the question of people embracing a 'new' sith empire 1000 years later, its quite possible that the vast majority of the population has no idea about what the similarities were.

Please, ask the average person on the street what the big deal was about The Battle of Agincourt, Siege of Harfleur or Battle of Patay was.

Blank stares? Ok, lets try this again. Lets ask them what the Hundred Years War was. Or who was involved?

Still nothing? Ask them what the French Flag looked like. Any of them draw this?

Didn't think so.

Try this. That was about 600 years ago.

But that wasn't my country you say? All right, for you Americans, how many of you could remember what a Red Coat wore during the War for Independence. And you need to be more specific than 'a red jacket'.

How many of you could describe it without looking it up?

I'm going to go with not very many.

Now, add 1000 years, multiply by thousands of species with hundreds of different languages, their own petty wars and squabbles to worry about, the fact that most of them probably didn't know what government they had even been under 1000 years ago, and you're left with the point that probably less than 1/100,000 (or fewer) individuals had any idea that there was a connection.

Palpatine, being who he was, would have just carefully...removed...anyone who tried to speak out publically about the similarities, and destroy all mention of it. It wouldn't be that hard at all to obscure the similarities.

ESPECIALLY since the perverted Imperial symbol was similar to one of the GAR that had just spent the last 3 years saving everyone's lives.

Deception and no one noticing similarities would actually be a really easy thing to accomplish. [/img]

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:56 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6922Location: Missouri

Brilliant examples, Henning. That really puts things in perspective. Althought I must admit my own historical interests are in Germany or ancient medieval societies. But even then, I don't think I could point out a Spartan helmet from a Greek helmet. I just know what the Corinthian and Thracian styles look like _________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:06 pm

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Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 577Location: Canada

Darth Skuldren wrote:

But even then, I don't think I could point out a Spartan helmet from a Greek helmet. I just know what the Corinthian and Thracian styles look like

This still puts you ahead of...everyone I know. Except my Greek and Roman Studies professer.

Its a sad fact that even though a lot of people study 'history' it doesn't really stretch back that far for most people. Not even as far as writing does. Not even as far as public English records do.

Pretty much everyone has read/heard at least a couple of Shakespere's plays. And despite the fact he's one of the most famous people from his era, we don't even know if he was literate or wrote ANY of them. Just like 1000 years from now, no one will have any idea what the big deal was with Pitt/Jolie (I hope).

Government's fare no better.

Another case in point (because it came to mind and I love this example). You know those great blank white alabaster/marble statues that the Greeks and Romans loved? Everyone knows what they looked like. Must have looked amazing having all those solid white buildings and statues everywhere back in the day. So clean, so orderly.

Guess what? The one on the left is what you think of. The one on the right is what it would actually have looked like at the time:

That's how our collective memories work on most of history.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:55 pm

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7814Location: Sailing into the unknown

Good points, Henning! (Welcome by the way)

A couple things to consider though...

There are such things as historians. Even if the masses weren't familiar with ancient Sith symbols, the historians would be. And I'm sure they would've brought it to attention. And honestly, it wouyldn't even take historians. You said to dscribe a redcoats uniform without looking it up, but the thing is people in the GFFA can look it up.

With your French flag you used, I'll admit I had no idea that was what their flag looked like. However the fleur-de-lis, a commonly known French symbol, is prominently featured on it. I expect the ancient Sith logo (is that what you would call it?) would be much the same. The exact flag? No. The symbols? Yes.

Palpatine removing the opposition makes it slightly more credible, but I'm still not buying it. Imagine trying to eliminate the memory of a well-known culture. Think about all the sources (books, newspapers, magazines, movies, documentaries, encyclopedias, databases etc) that have information about this culture. And in Star Wars, we're not just dealing with one world, but an entire galaxy._________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:13 pm

Message

Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 577Location: Canada

Reepicheep wrote:

Good points, Henning! (Welcome by the way)

Thank you. And Thank you.

Reepicheep wrote:

And honestly, it wouyldn't even take historians. You said to dscribe a redcoats uniform without looking it up, but the thing is people in the GFFA can look it up.

This is where we enter the wonderful world of censorship. Also, you have to have them make the connection first and then know WHAT to look for.

Keep in mind that Palps has also had the last 30+ years to scrub this from the holonet (where most people would do their research). While it can probably still be accessed elsewhere its not as easy. If you couldn't google it, would you really take the trouble to?

But the key thing here is in order for them to look it up, they have to make the connection first, and know what to look for. Not just - this looks familiar...what does it remind me of?

Reepicheep wrote:

With your French flag you used, I'll admit I had no idea that was what their flag looked like. However the fleur-de-lis, a commonly known French symbol, is prominently featured on it. I expect the ancient Sith logo (is that what you would call it?) would be much the same. The exact flag? No. The symbols? Yes.

Ask any New Orleans Saints fan what the symbol on the helmet is (I'm actually tempted to try this if I ever visit), and I would bet half or less recognize it, and its one of the world's most famous emblems.

Also, you mention that the fleur-de-lis is French. Well at the same time (100 years war) look what appears on the British coat of arms:

Who were at war with the French. The populace (to my limited historical knowledge) didn't overly panic over that, even though England did not possess any territorial holdings in France (possibly Gibralter, not sure). But certainly not enough to justify half the shield.

This isn't to even start on the whole Swastika thing.

Besides, who knows what other corporate symbols may also have had similar designs.

Reepicheep wrote:

A couple things to consider though...

There are such things as historians. Even if the masses weren't familiar with ancient Sith symbols, the historians would be. And I'm sure they would've brought it to attention.

As for the historian thing , that's where the real sticking point comes in. And other than forcible removal, I can't really explain that one away. Other than that perhaps that symbol was forgotten over the next 2000 years of warfare and supplanted with another...

Perhaps the one they always use for the 'sith era' became the most common? Yeah. this is where even I run into justification problems.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:45 pm

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ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7814Location: Sailing into the unknown

For your first point, I refer you to what I said about historians and just how hard it would be to erase information about a particular culture.

And for the second point, I think I'll have to say point taken. It always struck me as a French symbol, but that might not be the case for everyone.

As for the third: gotcha! _________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Last edited by Reepicheep on Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:46 pm

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Old Master BenAdministrator

Joined: 10 Nov 2007Posts: 2259Location: Georgia

Reepicheep wrote:

For your first point, I refer you to what I said about historians and just how hard it would be to erase information about a particular culture.

And for the second point, I think I'll have to say point taken. It always struck me as a French symbol, but that might not be the case for everyone.

Point taken? What does this mean? I've never seen such a response on the interwebs before in my life! There must be a counterpoint, or some sort of debate! You're doing it wrong, Reep.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:49 pm

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Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 577Location: Canada

Reepicheep wrote:

For your first point, I refer you to what I said about historians and just how hard it would be to erase information about a particular culture.

Yeah, the historian thing is a toe-stubber. I don't really have a workable answer to that one.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:49 pm

Message

ReepicheepMaster

Joined: 05 Feb 2008Posts: 7814Location: Sailing into the unknown

Oh am I?

Well you know what I mean. I can't argue further on that particular point because Henning has pretty much shot my argument to pieces (in a gracious way I might add!).

EDIT: This was meant to be a response to OMB...^^_________________
Where sky and water meet,
Where the waves grow sweet,
Doubt not, Reepicheep,
To find all you seek,
There is the utter east.

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:27 pm

Message

Darth_HenningMaster

Joined: 12 Apr 2011Posts: 577Location: Canada

Reepicheep wrote:

Oh am I?

Well you know what I mean. I can't argue further on that particular point because Henning has pretty much shot my argument to pieces (in a gracious way I might add!).

No point in being mean about it, its just a friendly logical debate. (now, if you start arguing with me about my taste in women we have trouble ) You hamstrung me on the historians so I think we're even.