"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Even though I am still Catholic, I will certainly not back such false notions or anti-Orthodox sentimates--especially as I seek to be more like an Orthodox under Rome and maybe someday soon (still praying while I study), fully Orthodox

May you be blessed with divine wisdom. I must say, however, that the first bolded statement and the second bolded statement are conflicting, at least in spirit.

Is there something wrong with a person saying "I'm not sure whether I sure stay Catholic or convert to Orthodoxy; therefore, I'm going to remain Catholic until I figure it out"?

I forgot where the quote comes from (Ven. Cardinal Newman? Chesterton?), but it has been said that when you are seriously considering leaving the Catholic Church, you have already left Her in spirit. For a Catholic, the Church is all there is. There is nowhere else to go. She is everything. For a Catholic, leaving the Church is like leaving yourself. I think there is a lot of truth to this.

Marriage ("the two shall become one flesh") is a decent parallel. When you seriously consider divorce, you have already divorced in spirit. It's something irrevocable.

Marriage ("the two shall become one flesh") is a decent parallel. When you seriously consider divorce, you have already divorced in spirit. It's something irrevocable.

The unity of a couple that is considering divorce just isn't there, even if it is not (yet) a full break. The unity can be restored, of course. Same would go with communion with the Church. Note, however, my caveat about about it being a decent parallel. It's not one-to-one. So if you differ from my opinion, try to differ with the main issue, not the imperfect parallel.

It would work the same for an EO, would it not? Imagine an EO flirting with the idea of joining another "church." For an EO, EO is the Church. It is all there is. Leaving EO would be like cutting out your heart.

Uh-oh. It looks like I'm the one in the doghouse, then, buried in deep s***!

Don't worry bro, I believe in Purgatory.

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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Good man. You need not believe in Dante's conception of Purgatory, colorful as it is .

All I know is, God will complete my theosis before my ascent to heaven (God willing!) if left incomplete during my earthly life. Praise him for that, or I would probably get myself tossed out soon after my arrival!

In the case of someone converting to Catholicism (resp. Orthodoxy), then yes I think he/she should intend to remain Catholic forever (resp. Orthodox) -- as opposed to saying "I'll join the Catholic (resp. Orthodox) Church now and just see if it works out."

This cannot, however, be generalized to everybody who is Catholic (resp. Orthodox) already. What right do you have to look down on someone because he/she is considering converting?

I forgot where the quote comes from (Ven. Cardinal Newman? Chesterton?), but it has been said that when you are seriously considering leaving the Catholic Church, you have already left Her in spirit. For a Catholic, the Church is all there is. There is nowhere else to go. She is everything. For a Catholic, leaving the Church is like leaving yourself. I think there is a lot of truth to this.

I don't really have a problem with the concept as you present it. I feel this way about Holy Orthodoxy, very strongly.

It would work the same for an EO, would it not? Imagine an EO flirting with the idea of joining another "church." For an EO, EO is the Church. It is all there is. Leaving EO would be like cutting out your heart.

I have thought of it and it did feel that way.

If I mentally "left" Orthodoxy, I would have literally nothing left. It's like looking through a doorway and seeing nothing there in any direction, a complete blank. I can imagine some non-Orthodox Christians will feel that way, based upon whatever assumptions they themselves have embraced.

I suppose that...ultimately...this is why there are so many unchurched, although many of these will identify in some way vaguely with Christianity. When they have lost a sense of trust in "whatever" they had placed their trust in, they are drifting.

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"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living" Jaroslav Pelikan

The unity of a couple that is considering divorce just isn't there, even if it is not (yet) a full break. The unity can be restored, of course. Same would go with communion with the Church. Note, however, my caveat about about it being a decent parallel. It's not one-to-one. So if you differ from my opinion, try to differ with the main issue, not the imperfect parallel.

It would work the same for an EO, would it not? Imagine an EO flirting with the idea of joining another "church." For an EO, EO is the Church. It is all there is. Leaving EO would be like cutting out your heart.

I have no quarrel with the underlying principle (apostasy is a serious sin for both RC and EO); just the example.

I suppose that...ultimately...this is why there are so many unchurched, although many of these will identify in some way vaguely with Christianity. When they have lost a sense of trust in "whatever" they had placed their trust in, they are drifting.

Indeed. That's why we do not call the Protestant/Evangelical communities "churches" in the proper sense, because they do not have that understanding of church as one and catholic, which both of our communions consider as essential marks of the Church.

Here's my issue with the model - it's not in the details, it's in the early judgment. Whether one is considering leaving their Church or their spouse, I think there is always a chance to turn back without utterly betraying oneself. Even if one is very serious about leaving - i.e. taking catechism classes in another faith, talking about re-baptism, etc. - I still think they can avoid leaving and not be judged as apostates. Heck, I think they can not only avoid leaving but also be more committed than they were before considering leaving.

I don't know - most of the time I'm a hopeless idealist when it comes to people.

At some point yesterday during my regular trawl for amusement I found a post asking about Italo Greek Catholic Churches in Italy.

After about 3 posts which did mention Grottoferrata there was a post bewailing the lack of a past member who had knowledge of these things and posted with humour etc etc

Today that post has vanished into cyberspace

Now I wonder 1) who dun it ?2) why was it dun ?

Suspect we don't need to ask 'cos we know the answers

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"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

I know I am not allowed to name the names of other Forums, but on a well known Orthodox e-mail list on Yahoo a Latin priest has asked about the events of the bannings of the Orthodox from CAF last November onwards. If anybody wants to contribute and help his understanding of those events, please PM me for the name of the Yahoo list.

With the comments from the Mod on mgy's Orthodox banishment thread, I think there is no way they will address any of the complaints.

It's a pity - the old Forum was good - the info was accurate and questions were answered correctly.

There is a lot of rubbish that gets posted there at present - very sad

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"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

There is a lot of rubbish that gets posted there at present - very sad

I agree.

I was saddened to see that a thread I recently posted in, entitled: "Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin theology?", has simply disappeared altogether.

In my final post in that thread I gave the following in response to Hesychios (I have also included his comment in italics):

Quote from: Apotheoun

Quote from: Hesychios

I simply have no way of addressing this without offending someone.

I would call it the Papal Communion if I had my way, but that's sure to tick off somebody.

If I call it the Roman Communion and I offend others, like yourself, whom I respect greatly.

If I call it the Catholic Communion still others object, myself included. I have to respect myself too.

I cannot find a compromise term everyone will agree on.

Sorry to have offended you.

Michael

Michael,

Thank you for responding to my post, and rest assured that I am not offended by your comments.

I would never ask you to compromise your beliefs, but I would explain my own ecclesiological viewpoint in this way: I am not in the "Roman Communion"; instead, I am a Ruthenian Catholic, i.e., an Orthodox Christian, in communion with Rome.

As I see it, the Catholic Church includes the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, which are all presently in full communion with each other, but also includes the Orthodox Churches not yet in full communion with the bishop of Rome, ". . . for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present" [CDF Communionis Notio, no. 17]. In other words, as true particular Churches the Orthodox are Catholic, and hopefully through ecumenical dialogue full ecclesial communion will be restored between the whole of the East and the Western Church. Sadly, at least for the present, both East and West are wounded, because the lack of full ecclesial communion ". . . hinders the complete fulfillment of [the Church's] universality in history" [CDF Communionis Notio, no. 17].

God bless,Todd

« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 01:46:24 PM by Apotheoun »

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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

Just signed up to CAF and appealed, again, for honesty about the status of the bannees. I imagine that my post will be removed very quickly

Here is is...

Thread Topic: The Banned Orthodox who are still shown as CAF Members

The Banned Orthodox.

I am one of the Banned Orthodox. There were about 17 of us banned in The Great Orthodox Purge of November last year.

The staff at CAFcontinue to conceal these secret bannings by lying about our status. Under my name of "Fr Ambrose" you will still see me listed as a Senior Member. I am not. The CAF staff removed me, and many other members, 4 months ago but they do not want you to know that.

Catherine Grant wrote today:

Quote:"The reality is that they were all banned for their refusal to follow the forum rules, and their religion never was an issue in that decision" /unquote

That also is untrue.

Here is the reason given for my banning by the CAF staff:

Quote:Your account has been locked for the following reason:Excess mod/admin resources required to monitor acct.This change will be lifted: Never /unquote

As before I and the other bannees appeal to CAF to act with integrity and honesty and show our correct status. I strongly object that the lie is being promulgated here that I am still a member of this Forum.

------------------------------------From a CAF post : "I think you need glasses. I just checked the Member List and it shows he is not banned as you say he was.___________________________

This shows that Catherine Grant's policy of "trying to protect our dignity" by not showing us as banned is having the opposite effect.

Our reputation is being damaged by her concealment of our true status.

Because we are still shown as active members, other members do not know we are banned and I have seen messages on CAF accusing us of

1. lying about our status2. "punishing" other members by refusing to participate3. sulking4. trying to make CAF look bad.

An honest and open "Banned" under our names would do more to restore our dignity than Catherine Grant's present policy of concealment which is having the opposite effect.

Let the members see the truth about my status, Catherine, and that of the other bannees. Shame the devil.

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

I am not surprised concerning mgy100's banishment. If some one wants to sent abusive messages to moderators, they should expect to be banned.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

If some one wants to sent abusive messages to moderators, they should expect to be banned.

I agree.

I'm not questioning mgy100's banishment from CAF. My question, Papist, is why the secrecy about who's been banished and who hasn't? Under mgy100's name it clearly say "Banned", but under Irish Melkite's name it says "Senior Member". Does this mean that Irish Melkite is still permitted to post, and has just been choosing not too? That's what the casual observer would assume.

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."- St. John Maximovitch

Here you all are. I finally found you. I was a ghost obsever in that forum for along time. You guys were really good. So much so I was missing Fr Ambrose today. I was a secret fan, so I decided to hunt him down and I found this place because of Micheals post today with Orthodox/Roman converts thread at CAF. I don't know if it as exciting over here as it was there, but Hello All. Keep up the quality you had at CAF and I might join the EO someday. Also if what you say in this forum is true wow I am naive, I sent an email ForumAdmin at CAF innocently looking for Fr Ambrose...........I'm so going to get banned and not for what I thought I would get banned for. hehehe

Here you all are. I finally found you. I was a ghost obsever in that forum for along time. You guys were really good. So much so I was missing Fr Ambrose today. I was a secret fan, so I decided to hunt him down and I found this place because of Micheals post today with Orthodox/Roman converts thread at CAF. I don't know if it as exciting over here as it was there, but Hello All. Keep up the quality you had at CAF and I might join the EO someday. Also if what you say in this forum is true wow I am naive, I sent an email ForumAdmin at CAF innocently looking for Fr Ambrose...........I'm so going to get banned and not for what I thought I would get banned for. hehehe

Well, welcome to OC.net! I hope you find your stay here to be enjoyable, enlightening, edifying, etc! If you have any specific questions about Orthodoxy, feel free to make use of the Convert Issues forum or the Faith forum.

I'm not questioning mgy100's banishment from CAF. My question, Papist, is why the secrecy about who's been banished and who hasn't? Under mgy100's name it clearly say "Banned", but under Irish Melkite's name it says "Senior Member". Does this mean that Irish Melkite is still permitted to post, and has just been choosing not too? That's what the casual observer would assume.

-Peter.

Possibly because everyone who wants to take the details of ever banishment public as if they were appropriate topics of discussion in the general forums.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

HAHAH you only wish you KNEW both sides to the story. Too bad that poster is gone and can't fully explain the other side of the story.

That's not exactly the way being banned from a forum, any forum works. You don't get to present your case to the rest of the forum members in the general forum. You are just banned. That's how it works.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I received a warning from someone in the Administration over there at CAF recently. I definitely felt like I was being baited. Although I would like to believe that had not been the case. Once again, I offered my resignation. In fact it is a standing offer, they can take it up anytime no questions asked.

I hope I am wrong about this, but the person seemed to have a way of communicating in a hostile and degrading manner. Hopefully it was just a case of a stressed individual communicating poorly in Ariel font. We all know how that can happen.

Michael

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"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living" Jaroslav Pelikan

That's not exactly the way being banned from a forum, any forum works. You don't get to present your case to the rest of the forum members in the general forum. You are just banned. That's how it works.

BTW, a simple way for people to determine if someone really is banned is to view their profile and see if there is the option to send them a PM. If not, they can then assume they have been stealth banned. It is of course possible to disable PM's in your profile, but I don't think I have ever come across anyone who had voluntarily done so.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I certainly think so. If everyone would stop behaving like children over there, there would be no reason for this.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.