Is there is a proper place to raise children? Chris Selley, Matt Gurney, and Jonathan Goldsbie beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies: This is the dawning of the rest of our lives, Doug Holyday.

Selley: At Council last week, Deputy Mayor Doug Holyday gave us a great political lesson on how not to make a point — namely, that it shouldn’t be up to Council to dictate whether condominium developers must include three-bedroom units in a new buildings. I tend to agree. Central Toronto does not want for spacious family accommodations, and while those accommodations are fantastically expensive, so too are three-bedroom condos — try $875,900, plus $611 in monthly fees, for one in the Bohemian Embassy. I suspect condo developers know what sorts of people want to live in their buildings. But Holyday then blew his point to smithereens by suggesting that downtown condo-dwelling children might actually be in danger. “’Where’s little Ginny? Well, she’s downstairs playing in the traffic on her way to the park,’” he sneered. “You’d have to be very careful.” Do either of you have strong opinions about the topic at hand? If not, we could follow Holyday’s lead and defend the One Ideal Lifestyle. I suggest that the best place to raise kids is clearly in a cozy semi-detached house in Moore Park with an ample back yard — just far enough from St. Clair and Mount Pleasant so as to be quiet, but a quick walk to the subway. Mind you, nice as my childhood was, I have no idea how I’d afford to provide it to any kids of my own!

[np-related]

Gurney: I’d counter that the ideal place would be some combination of Leaside and Richmond Hill, then. Just ’cause. But I actually did kick this idea around with some Post colleagues, and it was interesting how quickly what originally looked like disagreement evaporated. “Downtown” vs. “the suburbs” didn’t really work as an argument because there are plenty of suburbish areas well within the city and reasonably close to downtown. Moore Park is one of them, Leaside is another, and the list goes on. Heed much north of those areas and you’re talking generally similar neighbourhoods — subdivisions that suit driving around in a car to school and the grocery store and bla bla bla. The further you go, the newer and cheaper the homes get, and the longer it takes to get to the CN Tower. What interested me was how quick people are to insist that kids are better off living downtown, so long as they’re actually living in a neighbourhood functionally identical to the 905, except with taller trees and lower land values. Doug Holyday could have spared himself a huge amount of grief by saying, “Kids don’t want to grow up in condo towers” instead of tapping into some weird tribal vibe by going after downtown itself.

Goldsbie: Doug Holyday — and many of those responding to his remarks — could just as easily be speaking about dogs. I know virtually nothing about child-rearing, but I do suspect there’s more to it than providing ample green space in which to run around. I grew up in the Yonge and Eglinton area, (and perhaps did take the parks and upper-middle-class tree canopy for granted), but I don’t think I’m necessarily a better person for it. I’m rather ashamed, for example, that I never set foot in Kensington Market until the age of 18: My conception of Toronto had largely been limited to my own broader neighbourhood, and to wherever key downtown movie theatres happened to be. I did, however, spend a great deal of time at Canada’s Wonderland, to which I attribute my passion for pedestrian-scale urbanism; Wonderland’s a private realm designed to mimic an ideal public realm, and it does so superbly. The opportunity to explore and experience, to wander and discover, to take ownership of a place — that strikes me as far more integral to pre-adolescent enrichment than the specific characteristics of any given area. So buy your child a Metropass, as soon as you feel comfortable doing so, and let them treat the city as their own personal amusement park.

Selley: I would echo that suggestion. The fact that Toronto is so fantastically safe and livable is what makes Holyday’s comments so disappointing — and worrying, if they really are indicative of how some in the suburbs see downtown. (How do they think New York City even functions?) We all have our lifestyle preferences, but when people run their mouths — which Holyday usually doesn’t, at least not in an inciting way — it invites feelings of superiority and rivalry on either side. Encouraging Torontonians to explore the entirety of the city is one solution to that. Better connecting us all through public transit is another. We are, after all, one city. Hey, that’s kind of catchy…

Gurney: Don’t give anyone any ideas, Chris. I echo the call for families to explore Toronto and the whole region around it. I was absolutely fascinated by the CN Tower growing up, which is half the reason I mentioned it in my first point. Kids will latch onto things and the only way to do justice to their natural curiosity is to show them as much as possible. And you’re right. Street proofing your kids — don’t talk to strangers, don’t run into traffic, memorize their name and phone number — is good advice whether they live in the 905 or the 416 (any part of it). My kids will grow up in a similar environment to the one I grew up in, but I’ll be sure they get to experience the joys and mysteries of downtown, too.

Goldsbie: As Chris alluded to earlier, it’s difficult to have a discussion of Toronto real estate without considering the cataclysmic impact that rising property values have on our psychogeography of the city. I’m not sure I can even conceive of what housing options might be available to any given person one decade from now — and that mystery drives home our greater obligation to ensure that every part of Toronto becomes (or remains) pleasant, safe, and accessible by transit. It’s like the philosophical concept of the “veil of ignorance”: that the most moral social arrangement would be one determined by a hypothetical person with no knowledge of their own characteristics or the place in the system that they themselves would occupy. All of Toronto deserves to be equally habitable; the diversity of landscapes is not especially relevant.

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