“I don’t get it why would we want to make the house so tight that you would need ventilation?” - Home Energy Pros2016-12-09T14:09:56Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/i-don-t-get-it-why-would-we-want-to-make-the-house-so-tight-that?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A91496&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYou are absolutely correct a…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-08:6069565:Comment:934502012-09-08T17:24:04.075ZJim Shanklehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JimShankle
<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimshankle" id="webProfileURL" name="webProfileURL" title="View public profile"></a></p>
<p><strong>You are absolutely correct about the difficulty of getting this point across to consumers - <span style="text-decoration: underline;">and</span> the importance of your advice. </strong></p>
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<p>We were fortunate at an early…</p>
<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimshankle" title="View public profile" name="webProfileURL" id="webProfileURL"></a></p>
<p><strong>You are absolutely correct about the difficulty of getting this point across to consumers - <span style="text-decoration: underline;">and</span> the importance of your advice. </strong></p>
<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimshankle" title="View public profile" name="webProfileURL" id="webProfileURL"></a></p>
<p>We were fortunate at an early stage (2005) of our business to have had an important experience that taught us why ventilation requires modification after sealing a building. Maybe our somewhat funny (and fortunately non-costly) experience will be helpful whenever you need an analogy to make this critical point regarding the "seal it tight AND ventilate it right" ditty.</p>
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<p>SealantTech (using our initial Ag-Tite brand) pioneered the application of spray foam in poultry houses and through the years have sprayed thousands of these large buildings to improve static pressure. Farmers have been pleased with the resulting, substantial savings in energy and better breeding environment. Among the many, many "lessons learned" (the most important being that 2lb foam does <span>not</span> hold up because of darkling beetles) was that ventilation must be modified after we spray. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimshankle" title="View public profile" name="webProfileURL" id="webProfileURL"></a></p>
<p>As an example, in one early application, our customer was very happy that the static pressure in his 15 year old leaky house easily exceeded the minimum level required by his poultry integrator. Before our work, the grower was in danger of losing his contract to grow chickens and, of course, had no alternative use for 4 buildings (350' x 60') in the middle of nowhere Arkansas.</p>
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<p>However, 6 months later the grower called us back (after two flocks of 20,000 birds each) to say that while the static pressure was fine, he had lost productivity. Neither he nor his integrator could figure out what was wrong so they wanted our opinion. After looking at a variety of their processes (we were neophytes in the poultry business then), we identified why they were achieving lower average broiler weights than were expected at 45 days. As a result, an inadequate number of birds were achieving the spec required for higher-value chicken breasts. That was a <span>big</span> number when you consider the wholesale price spread paid by KFC and McDonald's between breasts vs. other chicken parts times 40,000 birds raised since we sprayed.</p>
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<p><span><b>Important lesson learned: </b></span></p>
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<p>After we sprayed, the farmer did not increase the flow of air ventilated through the house. The results was that his birds became oxygen-deprived and did not grow at the rate normally expected or achieve a consistent finished weight. As can easily be seen in retrospect, this was because air that had previously been coming through cracks and joints in the leaky house was no longer available because of our sealant work. After the "aha" hit everyone and additional air was provided to the next flock (at no additional cost), the farmer's results jumped off the page. In one flock he went from worst to best grower for this integrator in his Complex.</p>
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<p>Hopefully the world will learn the wisdom of your recommendation - to "Seal it tight" <span>AND</span> "Ventilate it right". If they do, they will live a healthier life…not an option, of course, for chickens and turkeys - at least not beyond their 45 days in a well sealed and ventilated poultry house!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimshankle" title="View public profile" name="webProfileURL" id="webProfileURL"> </a></p> Nice to know there's at least…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:931902012-09-07T14:20:38.510ZRobert Riversonghttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/RobertRiversong
<p>Nice to know there's at least one level-headed person here who doesn't resort to knee-jerk reactions.</p>
<p>Sixty years on the earth and 30 years in the field gives me a right to a hard head.</p>
<p>Nice to know there's at least one level-headed person here who doesn't resort to knee-jerk reactions.</p>
<p>Sixty years on the earth and 30 years in the field gives me a right to a hard head.</p> To label a rational discussio…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:934132012-09-07T14:16:22.632ZRobert Riversonghttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/RobertRiversong
<p>To label a rational discussion a "rant" and to call the commenter "selfish" is exactly the kind of disrespectful (and intellectually dishonest) comment you claim to be inappropriate.</p>
<p>To label a rational discussion a "rant" and to call the commenter "selfish" is exactly the kind of disrespectful (and intellectually dishonest) comment you claim to be inappropriate.</p> I know about the breakup (and…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:933122012-09-07T12:35:06.716ZSean Lintow Srhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/sls
<p>I know about the breakup (and it's not limited to just one take), and where PHIUS wants to head &amp; super-insulation, etc... The point is Passiv Haus standard is the standard &amp; if someone wants to modify it they do so through channels or create their own - just because we are the US doesn't mean we always get our way</p>
<p>My .02 - I also agree with you on Ted &amp; locking horns for the most part but you definitely come off as hard headed and the catch is not crossing the line from…</p>
<p>I know about the breakup (and it's not limited to just one take), and where PHIUS wants to head &amp; super-insulation, etc... The point is Passiv Haus standard is the standard &amp; if someone wants to modify it they do so through channels or create their own - just because we are the US doesn't mean we always get our way</p>
<p>My .02 - I also agree with you on Ted &amp; locking horns for the most part but you definitely come off as hard headed and the catch is not crossing the line from friendly discussions to completely adversarial (&amp; no I am not saying Ted, me or anyone is perfect but this isn't the GBA and there are slightly diffrent rules) and I know you have a lot to offer this board &amp; people on it</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> Robert,
I'm sorry that Mr. Fe…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:933112012-09-07T11:41:41.179ZJohn Nicholashttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JohnNicholas
<p>Robert,</p>
<p>I'm sorry that Mr. Feist posted information in another forum, (your links), that disagrees with the position you have chosen. That is a selfish and consuming reason to release your rant here. It is in fact a rant because none of the rest of us knew where you were coming from. When you were challenged you then posted the links. It would not be a rant if you had shared everything with the discussion.</p>
<p>Your comments on this topic, as stated above, disagree with everything I…</p>
<p>Robert,</p>
<p>I'm sorry that Mr. Feist posted information in another forum, (your links), that disagrees with the position you have chosen. That is a selfish and consuming reason to release your rant here. It is in fact a rant because none of the rest of us knew where you were coming from. When you were challenged you then posted the links. It would not be a rant if you had shared everything with the discussion.</p>
<p>Your comments on this topic, as stated above, disagree with everything I have learned from Day 1 in training. And they reinforce my 40 years of experience with people. Usually people that have to state they don't suffer fools are themselves _________ .</p>
<p>Since you have made your position clear, the rest of us can now discuss the issues we are concerned about.</p> Yes, I'm still awake. I don't…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:931832012-09-07T06:24:13.565ZRobert Riversonghttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/RobertRiversong
<p>Yes, I'm still awake. I don't go to parties. I don't engage in small talk. I am bluntly honest and forthright, and I don't suffer fools gladly.</p>
<p>Yes, I'm still awake. I don't go to parties. I don't engage in small talk. I am bluntly honest and forthright, and I don't suffer fools gladly.</p> You are still awake? I am on…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:932232012-09-07T05:55:08.808ZGlen Gallohttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/GlenGallo
<p>You are still awake? I am on the west coast and will be in bed as soon as I hit send</p>
<p></p>
<p>my only opinion was that you are competent yet rude. I would also add I would most likely avoid conversation with you at a party. It is too bad as you indicate a real passion and wealth of knowledge for the industry. However you cannot convey that wealth of knowledge in meaningful discourse with respect for others.</p>
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<p>You are still awake? I am on the west coast and will be in bed as soon as I hit send</p>
<p></p>
<p>my only opinion was that you are competent yet rude. I would also add I would most likely avoid conversation with you at a party. It is too bad as you indicate a real passion and wealth of knowledge for the industry. However you cannot convey that wealth of knowledge in meaningful discourse with respect for others.</p>
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<p></p> On the contrary. I let the fa…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:933102012-09-07T05:38:40.226ZRobert Riversonghttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/RobertRiversong
<p>On the contrary. I let the facts and evidence lead me to appropriate conclusions. It is you who seems unwilling to consider the facts if they interfere with your opinion.</p>
<p>On the contrary. I let the facts and evidence lead me to appropriate conclusions. It is you who seems unwilling to consider the facts if they interfere with your opinion.</p> Robert,
Wow
I would agree it…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:933092012-09-07T05:32:38.369ZGlen Gallohttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/GlenGallo
<p>Robert,</p>
<p>Wow</p>
<p>I would agree it is my loss. I do not have the internet stamina to exhaust such points. I choose not to play the game called the point is moot.</p>
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<p>You have quite obviously made up your mind and are on your own path to<em> </em>righteousness. Good luck with your journey, I choose not to follow </p>
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<p>I will simply agree to disagree</p>
<p>Robert,</p>
<p>Wow</p>
<p>I would agree it is my loss. I do not have the internet stamina to exhaust such points. I choose not to play the game called the point is moot.</p>
<p></p>
<p>You have quite obviously made up your mind and are on your own path to<em> </em>righteousness. Good luck with your journey, I choose not to follow </p>
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<p>I will simply agree to disagree</p> John, great post. I love real…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-09-07:6069565:Comment:932202012-09-07T05:23:19.323Ztedkiddhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/tedkidd
John, great post. I love real world examples that illustrate experiences that took people to new understandings. I recently realized how critically connected iaq is to comfort, and energy intensive behaviors in effort to attain comfort. A stale house is uncomfortable. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.<br />
<br />
Some people are resistant to having perspective change or grow, and some simply aren't capable.
John, great post. I love real world examples that illustrate experiences that took people to new understandings. I recently realized how critically connected iaq is to comfort, and energy intensive behaviors in effort to attain comfort. A stale house is uncomfortable. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.<br />
<br />
Some people are resistant to having perspective change or grow, and some simply aren't capable.