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00:16:16 karlw: its a start eh!
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00:30:36 sladegen: I dunno, there sure are a lot of names listed in the bible. You sure it isn't a phone book?
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00:43:14 incubot: We hope to announce the details in the coming weeks...
00:43:17 Where else can I announce it ?
00:43:47 incubot: http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2009-May/004454.html
00:43:50 this email might be relevant: http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2003-December/004035.html
00:44:50 incubot: What makes you believe this email might be relevant?
00:44:53 For the purposes of the proposal, specifying the English alphabet within ASCII is a convenient way to specify it portably. Authors of internationalized systems can extend R5RS Scheme _and_ this proposal as they desire, but it's not relevant to the mechanism of #ci/#cs.
00:45:56 incubot: what would we do without you?
00:45:59 at least on linux, creating threads are almost free. if you are using some piece of shit like darwin/mac os x, then any operation on threads can be slow without any good reason
00:46:12 *mejja* is bored
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00:53:23 *mejja* feels sorry for renee fleming
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01:11:42 Riastradh: Line 280 in fasl.c is fishy! I don't get how it could ever work.
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01:33:51 incubot: Mi lusinga il dolce affetto
01:34:20 ruggiero!
01:35:55 Yes!
01:36:05 surely you mean sė!
01:36:44 rudybot: give pumpkin "a bottle of champagne"
01:36:44 mejja: your sandbox is ready
01:36:44 pumpkin: mejja has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive)
01:36:59 rudybot: eval (GRAB)
01:37:00 pumpkin: your sandbox is ready
01:37:00 pumpkin: ; Value: "a bottle of champagne"
01:37:03 yay
01:37:04 thanks
01:37:22 rudybot: give mejja "una bottiglia di spumante"
01:37:22 mejja: pumpkin has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)"
01:37:35 rudybot: eval (GRAB)
01:37:35 mejja: ; Value: "una bottiglia di spumante"
01:39:27 grazie
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01:53:48 rudybot: eval (GRAB)
01:53:49 X-Scale: your sandbox is ready
01:53:52 rudybot: eval (GRAB)
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01:54:11 rudybot: give X-Scale 'a-lollipop
01:54:11 X-Scale: mejja has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive)
01:54:19 X-Scale: retry!
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02:13:46 mejja pasted "for Riastradh: OBJECT_NEW_ADDRESS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81471
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02:28:42 *mejja* recommends http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004NK26
02:29:54 Please make this Grant Rettke guy stop flooding Planet Scheme with off topic posts :(
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02:45:07 mbishop: as little as those posts are to my taste, I think the fault lies with planet.dk rather than the poster in question.
02:45:31 or scheme.dk. or whatever.
02:46:12 wow, he's a really prolific blogger
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02:46:59 mejja: baroque opera is a connoisseur's taste
02:47:34 and the nasty-assed Brussels sprouts I cooked tonight are to nobody's taste. I wouldn't have fed them to a dog.
02:51:40 Daemmerung: Ha! I'm voting tomorrow. (fuck brussel)
02:52:15 you mean you are not voting...
02:52:41 klutometis: Thanks, I'll fix it.
02:52:47 *mejja* ..ok it's today
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02:56:32 Daemmerung: I blame you
02:56:36 *mbishop* huffs
02:57:22 klutometis: the order looks fine to me
02:57:30 From srfi-13.txt:
02:57:34 string-filter s char/char-set/pred [start end] -> string
02:57:51 From utf8-srfi-13.txt:
02:57:53 (define (string-filter s filt . opt)
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03:15:38 foof: is that the bizarro-world srfi-13?
03:15:55 string-filter char/char-set/pred s [start end] -> string
03:16:01 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-13/srfi-13.html#string-filter
03:16:08 and Chicken 3 srfi-13.scm
03:17:28 and Chicken 4 srfi-13.scm
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03:26:02 foof: i'm not sure what the pedigree of srfi-13.txt is; i'm going by schemers.org
03:27:26 *offby1* throws his Adult Assurance Personal Hygiene Product at mbishop
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03:28:21 *mbishop* washes it and reuses
03:28:55 incubot: Superman! Can you hear me? Superman! Where are you...
03:30:15 ... Supes?
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03:40:46 Scooby Doo... where are you...
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03:43:07 incubot: superman?
03:43:10 superman
03:43:19 incubot: that was helpful
03:43:25 yes, i noticed that.. i just didn't use it for too long :(
03:43:31 :(
03:44:56 incubot: am I on your ignore list?
03:44:59 If a UTF-8 decoder encounters an initial octet for a multioctet sequence, followed by an octet that is not formed like a continuation octet, when it substitutes a replacement character, should it consume or ignore the malformed continuation octet?
03:47:58 incubot: It should just raise an error.
03:48:02 eval (raise 123)
03:48:30 zbigniew, klutometis: ah... it seems srfi-13.txt != srfi-13.html
03:49:06 This is disturbing... I have a mirror of srfi.schemers.org and it's faster to look up the text file than the html - I wonder what else is different?
03:49:29 yep, you are absolutely correct -- what are they thinking?
03:50:17 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale
03:50:33 The final versions are all in HTML. This is described in the SRFI process document.
03:50:53 Any text files are there only for historical amusement.
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03:51:24 I know that, but I figured they'd either revise, or make a note of, or not provide the .txt file if it changed.
03:51:51 aha!
03:52:07 the wrong order is also documented for gauche at http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/man/gauche-refe_108.html#SEC319
03:53:12 for f in ~/doc/srfi.schemers.org/srfi-*/srfi-*.html; do lynx -dump $f > ${f%%.html}.txt; done
03:55:03 .html has no wildcards, so shortest match is no different from longest match. :-P (Sorry, I usually get too lazy to use %% most of the time, so it looks funny to me. :-P)
03:55:58 here we are, folks: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.srfi.srfi-13/156
03:56:41 SRFI-13 html copy was stealth updated in 2005 without a revision note in the document
03:56:50 incubot: sperber
03:56:53 the release announcement of r6rs will actually contain an attachment called 'sperber_nude.vbs' which, when opened, will delete any r5rs implementation it finds on your drive or the N:, X:, L: or Z: drives
03:57:40 That's pretty disturbing.
03:57:59 How odd is it that that is my quote...
03:58:09 Eh, who uses SRFI 13 anyway?
03:58:32 the next line was 'do not open this attachment no matter how tempting'
04:02:34 *Daemmerung* reaches for the brain-bleach
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04:22:01 klutometis: utf8 has been updated
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05:16:03 What does an apply that gets 3 arguments do? (apply func1 func2 list1)
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05:18:58 That is no different from (apply func1 (cons func2 list1)).
05:19:36 > (apply + 10 '(2 3 4 5))
05:19:36 24
05:20:03 it seems it uses 10 as first parameter to +, then all the list as rest of parameters
05:20:19 well, what Riastradh said
05:22:04 (apply f e1 e2 ... en) => (apply f (cons* e1 e2 ... en))
05:22:50 ahh nice thanks
05:25:37 how is cons* different from list?
05:25:44 Try it, Elly.
05:27:33 well, cons* is unbound in PLT scheme
05:27:36 foof, you have a fancy-dancy arithmetic expression simplifier, right? It's past my bedtime, and I'd like to simplify -2 + (2^(floor (k / 2)) * (2 + (k & 1))), or in the S-expression that I'm really dealing with, (- (* (arithmetic-shift 1 (arithmetic-shift k -1)) (+ 2 (bitwise-and k 2))) 2).
05:27:37 I guess that's a difference :P
05:27:53 Elly, load the SRFI 1 module.
05:28:12 remind me how to do that? oO
05:28:19 Read the manual.
05:28:21 I was trying (load (srfi 1)), but that is not right
05:28:24 ah, or I could do that :P
05:29:09 oh, I see
05:29:14 cons* doesn't produce a list
05:29:43 Riastradh: It actually doesn't know any simplifications involving exponents... so you can do low-power polynomials expanding out the multiplications, but it will just leave 2^k as-is.
05:30:46 It was a special-purpose program - it still has a ways to go before becoming a general-purpose symbolic math library.
05:31:17 ooh, I should write an expression simplifier
05:32:46 CONS* does produce a list sometimes, Elly.
05:34:42 hey. is there a paper somewhere that explains how R6RS libraries work especially wrt those "phases" things? the R6RS is really dense about it..
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05:35:54 Riastradh: well, if there's a null in the tail position
05:36:29 Mostly they don't work very well, sphex.
05:38:01 oh hey Riastradh. dunno if you remember but I was writing a macro expander and you helped me. sorta gave up on using syntactic closures to support syntax-case. now using the mark/substitution thing from the syntax-case papers and I'm not changing a damn thing until I understand them better. this is just too complicated. heh.. :p
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05:39:28 but at least I managed to get the destructuring/restructuring code out of the main expander and implement them as macros. the core expander has the API from R4RS's appendix.
05:40:12 I still dont realy understand why would (apply map + '((1 2) (3 4))) gives me (4 6)
05:40:42 Tankado: ((+ 1 3) (+ 2 4))
05:40:42 Write the application of MAP without APPLY, Tankado.
05:41:02 anyway. phases. is there a simpler way to be R6RS compliant than.. whatever those phases thing are?
05:41:29 Isn't that one thing R6RS was pretty lax about?
05:41:36 Sort of.
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05:43:01 I am disappointed that I still don't Actually Know scheme
05:43:30 foof: well, I really can't make sense of it :/
05:43:59 Riastradh : i know that map takes a function and apply it on any element of the list
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05:44:39 and i do understand X-Scale its doing ((+ 1 3) (+ 2 4)) i just dont see why
05:45:05 How long have you been learning Scheme, Elly ?
05:45:22 I haven't been learning it, really
05:45:35 I know SML pretty well, but I haven't actually tried to pick up scheme :(
05:46:33 Tankado: (apply proc arg1 arg2 ... args) is the same as (proc (append (list arg1 arg2 ...) args))
05:46:57 No, it's not.
05:47:02 the elements of the list, rather
05:47:07 I kow, Riastradh
05:47:09 know*
05:47:52 Tankado: R5RS page 32
05:48:17 ok i will go read
05:50:48 yeah it makes more sense i forgot the way map realy works on few lists, thanks
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05:51:17 hm
05:51:59 Riastradh: right now my expander is initialized with a make-macro-transformer hook that takes the rhs of define-syntax and returns a transformer. and right now this procedure always make a new expander (with a fresh environment) to expand and evaluate the code. am I on the right track? can I do R6RS with that?
05:52:21 I have free time this summer... I could work through SICP or something. Is SICP good for learning scheme if one already understands functional programming, or is there something better?
05:54:20 sphex, yes, I think so, approximately (modulo for-syntax imports). That's what Scheme48 does, for example.
05:55:09 Elly: I didn't know functional programming, and SICP only introduces mutations in later chapters.. so I found it a bit hard to learn with it. might be easy for you though. :p
05:55:21 Elly: I really enjoyed it. Conceptual and full of insights. There is a nice PDF made out of neilv texinfo version at http://www.scribd.com/doc/15556326/Structure-and-Interpretation-of-Computer-Programs-SICP
05:55:23 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/qsrube
05:55:24 I think it is quite absurd that so much of other R6RS macro expanders waste so much time bookkeeping with phases during the interesting parts of macro expansion.
05:56:20 does someone have the PDF around? scribd wants me to sign up to download it
05:56:38 I have it
05:57:01 care to make it appear somewhere? :P
05:59:14 Sure...let me find it.
06:01:32 Riastradh: ok. looks like a lot of them use the same "expander" and have it deal with multiple phases.. and then have to track the "phases" of identifiers. and that looks like a lot of extra work. but I'm wondering if there isn't a much simpler way (that can still support for-syntax imports) but with "separate" expanders for the different phases.
06:01:48 Yes. Refer to Scheme48.
06:02:30 (If you want to implement the broken semantics that the Indiana camp call `implicit phasing' or something, you'll need to messily associate phases with names, but you don't want to do this anyway.)
06:03:18 Here it goes, Elly.
06:05:38 Riastradh: ok. implicit phasing bad. but can you support R6RS without it? I don't care that much about it being fully compliant.. but I'd hate having to make big changes everywhere later just because of some.. silly design detail I should've done differently.
06:05:43 X-Scale: thanks!
06:05:45 Yes, of course you can.
06:06:03 oh good
06:06:03 Some of the R6RS is broken, but not that part of it.
06:06:25 Well, to be precise: some of the R6RS *mandates* broken behaviour; what it says about phasing, however, merely admits broken behaviour without mandating it.
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06:10:57 R6RS sure doesn't get much love. maybe there should be a community RR6RS project.
06:11:36 Like ERR5RS?
06:12:40 eh. seems pretty nice.
06:13:12 Imma read that.
06:14:58 seems pretty much WIP
06:15:40 I wonder if R6RS mantained that famouse R5RS intro quote: "Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary." :)
06:15:45 famous*
06:15:48 Riastradh: what do you think of ERR5RS?
06:16:04 I wasn't impressed when I last looked at it, but I didn't have the energy to do anything about it.
06:16:25 So I don't think much about it, in the sense that I have little opinion on it.
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06:17:39 R6RS makes me remeber C99 on how to butcher a language in 21 easy lessons.
06:18:16 Riastradh: oh.. shame. I wish you did meth. :p
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06:20:26 X-Scale: but but but.. in-place definitions!
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06:22:46 I'm not into the whole R6RS approval scheme...but my feeling is that a lot of "know all be all" kind of guys have invaded the decision process....without a small core of hardcore schemers (like in the past), R6RS seems like a natural consequence.
06:27:43 mehh.. I wish they would have taken R5RS and added first-class environments. and let people build whatever module systems using that.
06:31:24 I might be the only one thinking that though eh.
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06:45:36 incubot: coming back from buca di beppo, i noticed that my dogs had frozen emacs by commanding it to insert 71469937 effs into the buffer
06:45:39 Scheme's concept of `type' is not isomorphic to ML's or Haskell's. I am not sure why you are commanding me not to use tools that I am perfectly comfortable using and have been for years, but it seems to bear little relevance to the subject at hand.
06:47:51 foof: thanks;
06:52:06 does anyone know offhand how i could get apache to filter all .shtml files through, say, an shtml -> html script?
06:52:39 i have a feeling there's a mod; but i don't feel like messing with buckets and filters
06:54:14 i suppose i could do it with mod rewrite, such that path/document.html gets rewritten to path/converter.scm?doc=document.html
06:55:21 http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_ext_filter.html
06:55:24 beautiful
06:56:01 klutometis: mod_include's pretty quick to setup
06:57:11 sphex: doesn't that have to do with SSI?
06:57:25 how would i do a shtml -> html conversion?
06:59:09 interestingly, apache does have an AddOutputFilter; if one felt like doing shtml -> html in c
06:59:27 alternatively, i wonder if an apache filter could be linked against an .so i had created with chicken, for instance
06:59:27 I thought you wanted SSI. nvm.
07:00:00 sphex: oh, sorry; i meant shtml as in sxml: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/SXML.html
07:00:08 i now see that SSI has usurped shtml
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08:34:23 X-Scale: That almost sounds like "a bunch of python kind of guys" have invaded the process somehow.
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13:02:24 Hi all. I have three sources of inputs to a stateful computation, and each source has its own state. How do I best express this in scheme?
13:02:56 My thinking: write a function which takes the input and a one-element list (the state); then it can read and update the state as it pleases, and the states can be independent...
13:03:16 in C I'd use a pointer---is there a canonical "pointer knockoff" in scheme?
13:04:27 you could use an object like (define (new-state state) (lambda (message) (case (car message) ((get) state) ((set) (set! state (cadr message]
13:04:52 If the pointer is just an index into the list, you could probably best use a vector in Scheme
13:05:00 You can update those in-place just as easily, too
13:05:41 It's a little difficult to tell without more details
13:06:02 which details?
13:06:39 All of them? :-)
13:07:09 details *about what*?
13:07:16 ;)
13:07:18 To answer your question about a "pointer knockoff", you might want to read about "locatives", which encapsulate a closed-over variable into an object.
13:07:38 does it help to know that the inputs are wiimote/nunchuk/classic-controller button states?
13:07:56 It does
13:08:03 I want figure out what's _just_ been pressed/released, then look up in an alist and run a bunch of hooks...
13:08:20 You could just store their state in a variable per button, or use a vector like I said before
13:08:23 which (assuming "normal" user configuration) will then call xtest functions to fake x events...
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13:09:47 Or, I could store them in an integer and do whole-vector operations easily (and, or, flip, ...)
13:10:52 I'm not quite following the discsussion. Can you explain what you're having difficulty doing in a functional style?
13:11:55 passing a [writeable reference to a variable] to a function
13:12:09 Oh, you want to do it in a functional style?
13:12:09 but http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SinisterSchemeSamplePerplexesPythonPorter will probably do the trick
13:12:22 it doesn't feel functional to me...
13:12:50 Why doesn't it? That's what I'm trying to get at.
13:13:23 I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to write, so I'm not following why it can't be done in functional style.
13:13:45 I'm not sure why it doesn't feel functional to me
13:13:51 perhaps we're using different dictionaries? :)
13:14:01 While Scheme certainly allows you to use imperative style if you wish, generally things are done functionally unless there's a reason not to.
13:14:05 Hm?
13:15:04 I have a Wii, so I got the bit about Wiimote button states. Beyond that, I couldn't tell where you needed to use mutation to do what you're trying to do.
13:16:30 Here's the C'esque pseudo-code: pressed = now & ~last; released = last & ~now; last = now; go_have_fun_with(pressed, released);
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13:16:48 it's the "last = now;" step that was bugging me
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13:17:35 OK. I'm starting to understand a bit better. "last" is the previous button-pressed bitmap.
13:17:42 "now" is the new one.
13:17:42 yep
13:17:44 yep
13:18:17 If this is in a loop, you probably just want to make the previous state an argument to the loop entry
13:18:51 it isn't, I have a bunch of hooks that are called whenever a wiimote event happens
13:18:52 (let loop ((last last-state)) (let ((now (calculate-new-state))) ... (loop now))
13:19:15 ic
13:19:28 but otherwise a good idea :)
13:19:44 Can you give me an idea of how those hooks are called?
13:20:50 Captain Hook and Peter Hook his evil nephew.
13:20:56 :D
13:20:59 Naievely, I'd assume that I have a hash of Wiimote id to current button state; when I receive a button changed event, I'd get the previous value from the hash table, then update the table when I'm done.
13:21:25 there's a C thread calling the C wiimote callback function, which then enter guile. The scheme hook functions are added in a startup script that's loaded pre-wiimote-connection
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13:29:08 jonaskoelker: As an alternative, you could consider writing your Guile code as a coroutine to your C, using continuations.
13:31:15 interesting idea...
13:31:24 I can see how it makes sense
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13:37:01 Yay, I got it to work the way I want :)
13:37:33 thanks for the help, everyone (chandler, sjamaan, sladegen, soupdragon)
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15:17:25 I have a very noob question: why are (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) and (cons 1 (list 2 3)) different? (I am using plt-r5rs)
15:17:52 I thought consing elements together was the way to build a list
15:18:13 it is, but ...
15:18:17 rudybot: eval (cons 1 2)
15:18:18 *offby1: your sandbox is ready
15:18:18 *offby1: ; Value: (1 . 2)
15:18:21 rudybot: eval (list 1 2)
15:18:21 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2)
15:18:34 rudybot: eval (cons 1 (cons 2 ' ()))
15:18:34 *offby1: ; Value: (1 2)
15:18:49 aha
15:18:53 (list a b c ...) is shorthand for (cons a (cons b (cons c ... ' ())))
15:19:35