FTA: "Opposition to the vaccination programme has been driven by conservative clerics who claim it is a plot to sterilise Muslim children, and Taliban commanders who fear it is being used to gather intelligence in their strongholds. "

WippitGuud:Whiskey Pete: Any idea why they were against it in the first place?

FTA: "Opposition to the vaccination programme has been driven by conservative clerics who claim it is a plot to sterilise Muslim children, and Taliban commanders who fear it is being used to gather intelligence in their strongholds. "

abb3w:So, they've been dragged kicking and screaming all the way to the 19th century? That seems considerable progress.

To be fair, the polio vaccine was found in the 1950s and became readily available in the late 1950s/early 1960s. So, at least on this matter, they are a mere half century behind.

One of my favorite cousins (on just about any other matter) is also an anti-vaxer. I am not sure why because, on there matters, she is not a stupid woman. I have sent her articles on other reasons, more logical reasons, for the rise in autism diagnoses, but she remains staunch in her belief that vaccines are the key. It makes me very sad.

We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother.

Whiskey Pete:WippitGuud: Whiskey Pete: Any idea why they were against it in the first place?

FTA: "Opposition to the vaccination programme has been driven by conservative clerics who claim it is a plot to sterilise Muslim children, and Taliban commanders who fear it is being used to gather intelligence in their strongholds. "

Thanks..guess i should have read the whole article..

It pretty much the same reasoning as over in some parts of the US and UK. It rather sad we are getting outbreaks of diseases thought to have been eradicated decades ago.

I was talking with my neighbor on Sunday evening. We talked some about homeschooling, which led to the subject of that 4th grade "science quiz". Our conversation rapidly descended to ridiculous levels. He's a young earth creationist messianic Jew but is also a pretty good guy, in general. I should have really known better, but the cheap white wine kept it going long after there was no real reason to do so. But we all had fun and no hard feelings.

/the scientific method is bunk//controlled experiments in a lab are not science

DeaH:One of my favorite cousins (on just about any other matter) is also an anti-vaxer. I am not sure why because, on there matters, she is not a stupid woman. I have sent her articles on other reasons, more logical reasons, for the rise in autism diagnoses, but she remains staunch in her belief that vaccines are the key. It makes me very sad.

People have a hard time disassociating cause and effect from statistical correlation, and there are convincing articles that claim a correlation between vaccines and autism. I don't know if those claims are correct, but even if they are, that wouldn't prove causation.

The most interesting thing I've read suggested that what might be happening is that fevers (a common side effect of vaccination) might trigger the onset of autism in children who have the genes for it. If that is true (and it's a big "if" in my opinion) then the questions are -- is there a time window in which fevers can trigger autism, or is it inevitable at the first fever?

Anyone else seen anything like this before, especially info from scientific studies of this question?

sxacho:/the scientific method is bunk//controlled experiments in a lab are not science

And yet the computer you're currently using, the medications you have in your bathroom, the propulsion system in your preferred method of travel, hell even your microwave are ALL a result of the scientific method and controlled experiments in a lab of some sort. ALL of them.

DeaH:To be fair, the polio vaccine was found in the 1950s and became readily available in the late 1950s/early 1960s. So, at least on this matter, they are a mere half century behind.

Yeah, but the basic technology of vaccination is older than that.

Zasteva:Anyone else seen anything like this before, especially info from scientific studies of this question?

This would seem to suggest that autism involves something in pre-natal development, rather than any post-natal environmental factors; relatedly, the journal article (doi:10.1016/j.molmed.2011.03.001) suggests that it may be in part from immune reactions in the mother during pregnancy. In other words, the big factor may not be the kid having a fever, but the mother having one during critical points in development. (Contrariwise, it may be that later fevers are a function of the kid having an underlying autoimmune hypersensitivity.)

There also may be connections to maternal celiac disease and other family history of autoimmune conditions. Interestingly, celiac conditions have increased in recent decades; it's been conjectured to be a result of wheat strains introduced in the "Green Revolution" being more irritating to celiac conditions and/or changes in the amount of wheat in the western diet that increased production from the "Green Revolution" allowed.

Zasteva:DeaH: One of my favorite cousins (on just about any other matter) is also an anti-vaxer. I am not sure why because, on there matters, she is not a stupid woman. I have sent her articles on other reasons, more logical reasons, for the rise in autism diagnoses, but she remains staunch in her belief that vaccines are the key. It makes me very sad.

People have a hard time disassociating cause and effect from statistical correlation, and there are convincing articles that claim a correlation between vaccines and autism. I don't know if those claims are correct, but even if they are, that wouldn't prove causation.

The most interesting thing I've read suggested that what might be happening is that fevers (a common side effect of vaccination) might trigger the onset of autism in children who have the genes for it. If that is true (and it's a big "if" in my opinion) then the questions are -- is there a time window in which fevers can trigger autism, or is it inevitable at the first fever?

Anyone else seen anything like this before, especially info from scientific studies of this question?

Could be total BS for all I know.

The more interesting articles I've seen seem to indicate three main things:

1) A rise in the age of fathers (sperm has better genes when men are under 30)2) Tech culture is bringing together parents who have have more of a predisposition (mom and dad are both tech workers, and. though both mom and dad are normal, they each have certain traits that indicate they carry genes that may cause autism).3) In utero factors.

None of these have anything to do with vaccines, and I haven;t found anything that really points to vaccines. What I do know is that the dangers of not vaccinating a significant portion of children is going to cause problems. Actually, it already is, as evidenced by the whooping cough epidemics. My grandmother lost her first husband (my biological grand-dad), her youngest son, and an infant daughter to a whooping cough epidemic in the late 1920s. And now it's back.

One of the oldest speculations on autism I ever saw--this was way back in my psychobiology class in 1982--noted without much explanation that autistic kids in institutions had a habit of huddling around the radiators in their rooms, even on warm days; and there was a theory floating around then that autistic brain chemistry was somehow very sensitive to temperature. I was never able to find out more about it than that, though.

abb3w:DeaH: To be fair, the polio vaccine was found in the 1950s and became readily available in the late 1950s/early 1960s. So, at least on this matter, they are a mere half century behind.

Yeah, but the basic technology of vaccination is older than that.

Zasteva: Anyone else seen anything like this before, especially info from scientific studies of this question?

This would seem to suggest that autism involves something in pre-natal development, rather than any post-natal environmental factors; relatedly, the journal article (doi:10.1016/j.molmed.2011.03.001) suggests that it may be in part from immune reactions in the mother during pregnancy. In other words, the big factor may not be the kid having a fever, but the mother having one during critical points in development. (Contrariwise, it may be that later fevers are a function of the kid having an underlying autoimmune hypersensitivity.)

There also may be connections to maternal celiac disease and other family history of autoimmune conditions. Interestingly, celiac conditions have increased in recent decades; it's been conjectured to be a result of wheat strains introduced in the "Green Revolution" being more irritating to celiac conditions and/or changes in the amount of wheat in the western diet that increased production from the "Green Revolution" allowed.

DeaH:The more interesting articles I've seen seem to indicate three main things:

1) A rise in the age of fathers (sperm has better genes when men are under 30)2) Tech culture is bringing together parents who have have more of a predisposition (mom and dad are both tech workers, and. though both mom and dad are normal, they each have certain traits that indicate they carry genes that may cause autism).3) In utero factors.

None of these have anything to do with vaccines, and I haven;t found anything that really points to vaccines. What I do know is that the dangers of not vaccinating a significant portion of children is going to cause problems. Actually, it already is, as evidenced by the whooping cough epidemics. My grandmother lost her first husband (my biological grand-dad), her youngest son, and an infant daughter to a whooping cough epidemic in the late 1920s. And now it's back.

Yeah, I'm definitely not in favor of avoid vaccines. I vaccinated my son. Even if vaccines were causing them (which I don't see any evidence for), the risk is extremely low, and the harm from contracting the diseases is pretty serious.

friday13:sxacho:/the scientific method is bunk//controlled experiments in a lab are not science

And yet the computer you're currently using, the medications you have in your bathroom, the propulsion system in your preferred method of travel, hell even your microwave are ALL a result of the scientific method and controlled experiments in a lab of some sort. ALL of them.

No. I didn't mean me. These are some of the things I was trying to argue with my neighbor about. I realized I should have made that clearer after I posted.