Sociologist Dr. Josh Packard along with pastor and philosopher Jeff Cook join the show to discuss why spiritual people are leaving the church, the Dones, Shadow Missions, the recent Pew Study, and Church Refugees. Luke also defends Josh’s brutal attack on preaching.

For more on Josh Packard’s ongoing work understanding the current trend in the religious landscape and finding a way to provide more religious spaces for people who feel that traditional religion has cast them aside check out dechurched.net.

Nadia Bolz-Weber returns to the show to discuss Luke’s visit to House for All Sinners and Saints, Nadia’s re-connection with the churches of Christ, twelve minute sermons, church plants as a birthday party you throw for yourself, well-differentiated leaders, democratizing church and of course, CrossFit.

In the second part of the conversation with Fr. Richard Rohr we discuss the Enneagram including N.T. Wright’s number, why religion makes the best of people and the worst of people, the need for change, the Cosmic Christ and more.