Readers' comments

The public is against the coups in Turkey. Thus, there will be no more.

The Balyoz case decisions in special courts may be the first time in history for the Turkish democracy and civil law due to the 12 september referendum in 2010. If people are against the 'heavy' 18-20 year imprisonment decisions, they should look at the tortures (see the links) of the coups in history, especially towards the Turkish Kurds.

The hard-liner ex-president Evren and Sahinkaya are on trial on the coup. But they do not attend the court and quickly move their finances prior to the investigation, while the ethnic Kurds go out for day nicking for a living in the East.

Apparently, the other hard-liner ex-president Demirel, who is behind the 28 February coup attempt, had his own special intelligence team according to Mehmet Eymur, the main Ergenekon terror organisation suspect. Demirel's reply was 'I don't take him as a person to communicate!'

Gulen is a tool used by CIA or old CIA neocons who want to control Turkey or Turkish army. simple math logic adds up. Gulen is a ethnic Kurdish and he has elementary education, yes only 5 years old education(not that that excludes him being an intellectual but he cannot even speak properly or logically when you hear him) He get a green card for being "special" why? answer that simple question, why Ex Cia people support his visa? they want another "gREEN BELT" even when they support SAUDIS who are the most extremist of all, wahabis! for OIL and Empire, these Neocons are betraying USA, its people and world in general. Make no mistake they are using EARDOGAN, when his usefulness stops, they will dump him just like Saddam.

You, and that "film-maker" in LA, and the Islamophobe Geller in NCY, and a few others... I strongly suspect you're all serving the same masters.

Week after week, you show up here with the same hate-filled message. What could be your goal other than to demonize muslims and denigrate their religion. Who would gain from this hate campaign other than your paymasters?

You represent the worst the humanity can offer. I said before, this hate will devour you folks from the inside out, and you will fail miserably in your goals.

There he is again our little smiley Gulen boy serving his master and defending him with nonsensical cheap attacks and no logical examples. As their op manual states and since their brains are limited in capacity from daily brainwash, just pull out the usual Islamaphobe attack and pile on whatever cheap crap they can read on the web to tackle the facts.

Thank you though, as I said before you are essential on this website for comedic factor especially when, sadly, Turkey is being taken over by your primitive-minded masters. Keep it up.

Now go run and send a message to all other Gulen boys to jump in and recommend your cheap crap, which they already get fed daily during your brainwashing process.

You Gulen boys remind me of fat and obese rich guys eating at fancy restaurants day in and day out yet complaining about world hunger!

If you boys have a peaceful message about Islam why don't you go ahead and spread your messages in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc etc and not in the comforts of Ohio, Texas, California etc etc.

Let’s start with the Turkish Imam, Fethullah Gulen, the savy Islamist who he is reported to have said that “in order to reach the ideal Muslim society 'every method and path is acceptable, including lying to people.”
Gulen may be the real puppet master of the AKP government or works in conjunction with the AKP for the same goal.

The Gulen organization is thought to practice fear in Turkey and deception outside Turkey. This method of deception to advance Islam is an accepted and encouraged Islamic tactic based in Quran and is known as taqiyya.

Interestingly but not surprisingly Fethullah Gulen is firmly established in Pennsylvania and his permanent residency in United States was granted as an “extraordinarily talented academic” although it’s not clear if Gulen even has any kind of formal education.

Maybe this “prestigious” title enabled many to provide references to support his residency application (including government or ex-government members) and even ex-CIA directors. Ironically because of all the hatred and violence being perpetuated by Imams out there, an Islamist leader who does not openly preach violence it may automatically deem him a scholar or an extraordinary academic.

Gulen and his Islamist movement has a significant network here in the US including over 100 charter schools in 20 or more states.

Following 9/11 in a desperate attempt to eliminate radical Islam, US may be looking at a “moderate Islam” model and obviously using Turkey to create such a country makes sense. What is more disheartening is that United States unwittingly supports this change in the fabric of Turkish nation to one of “moderate” Islamic and is sacrificing the secular Republic of Turkey in doing so.

Anyone who thinks this is a far-fetched idea should read a 2004 article entitled “Turkey’s Strategic Model: Myths and Realities” by Graham Fuller who was the former vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council at CIA and also happens to be one of the supporters of Gulen in his US residency application. In a nutshell, Fuller suggests that the Western version of Turkey (so-called secularism or the French version of secularism; Fuller’s own words) is a myth and that Turkey can be more useful to the West as an Eastern power with political integration of Islam.

It is sadly unfortunate that the incompetency and mismanagement by the secularist parties facilitated the election of Islamist party, AKP led by Mr Erdogan.

No surprise that in the Islamist Turkey if you oppose the government you get slammed with forged evidence that not only Turkish but US and European forensic experts agree it’s forged. If the prosecutor hesitates, Islamci judiciary simply replaces him.

Again no surprise. All in the name of Islamism in Turkey and desperate support by US which started during Bush and continues full force with Obama is the support of AKP government for a simple reason that Erdogan/AKP is the one –eyed king in the land of the blind (Islamist nations, Iran, Afghanistan, Arab countries etc).

What a disgrace for the nation of Turkey under the Islamists. But they’ll do what they have to for the Islamization of Turkey and eliminating the guardians of secularism, the military, has been a top priority for them.

Turkey created Fethullah Gulen and Turkish sympathisers maintain Fethullah Gulen - he does not need the CIA - but you can be damn sure they are using him and his schools network in an effort to combat wahabbists in Turkic Asia (smiles) and sub Saharan Africa.

I love Turks and Turkey. I have a lot of respect for Ataturk for the way he got Anatolia cleared of its enemies. However, the behavious of the army generals over the past few decades has been anti-democratic and they were quitely egged-on by the West when they hanged one elected prime minister and sent another one to prison. These generals do not represent good, honest and pious Turkish people. I think Turkey will benefit if it has an army whose generals are not subservient to the West. At the same time I would also like to see the AK government show some magnanimity and stop persecuting army officers except the few top ones who hatched the plot. It is your army which is the envy of many. Long Live Turkey and its Army and its People - from a Pakistani brother.

Sledgehammer was more about having a Turkish military that serves the US ambitions as part of the 'Greater Middle East Project'. The power of the Turkish military had to be curbed after the refusal of the Turkish forces to enter Iraq in the war against Saddam. The end game after the pruning of Iran is the creation of a US backed 'istan' - Kurdistan in exchange for drilling rights in the oil rich region.

more and more I think Gulen is supported by neocons and CIA, He got a green card so easily without even knowing english!! how did he get it? and how come he would not visit turkey last 10-15 years?
He is ethnically Kurdish and he pretends that he supports the republic but I think he is hidding his intentions of destroying the republic. and creating Kurdish homeland. Most of AKP's top people are Kurdish origin also, see CELIK, ARINC etc, they are from east and they always divide the country by agitating during speeches. Erdogan himself is not ethnically Turk, his wife is an arab origin. So you see all these people have a grunge against the republic, they clearly do not like it the way it was, and it is.

Also WIKILEAKS(most fantastic document ever got out) you can clearly see, date june 6 2003, US ambassador says we need to support AKP against secular generals, and create our own media (which they did by "taraf") and Most likely CIA with Gulen created the fake documents against the generals. (generals were also stupid enough to give them opportunity for this by talking)
Chomsky was right, CIA is against American people, they are out for their egos and for EMPIRE, not what the ORIGINAL forefathers like Jefferson, Washington thought US to be. Free, democratic country with no foreign interventions, living by itself peacefully.

It is historic but not righteous act. They try to show it as a part of democratic movement in general. The other acts stayed as a show, but this was the real target :
No country has never lost too much generals in a time, but Turkey, with this act.

During 90 years of "Kemalism" (which may have served a purpose in 1930) Turkey has accomplished absolutely ZERO. In 90 years of Kamalism Turk's the world over we're jokes.
Compare that to 10 years of less-kemalism.

Where do you get your education? helloo! if AKP did not have educated people who got their education last 80-90 years, AKP could not have created this economy! Ataturk and our grandfathers created this republic through a miracle against all odds, against British, French, Italians, Greeks etc! with no money, no land, with few resources. They have created an educated masses by the millions, you could not write here in english if it was not for Ataturk and the republic, what are you talking about "joke" yes there were mistakes, coups etc. but you cannot paint the whole republic as a joke.
There is always a threshold of educated people where a country get more power and rises up, that was the luck of AKP, Ozal, ANAP helped this more than AKP. AKP followed Dervish's policy, period, they deserve credit for that.
As for the economic miracle, yes, it is nice but Look at Turk telecom, owned by Arabs, Turkcell, russians and Fins, other cell phone companies sold to foreigners, Even USA, Most capitalist country in the world would not sell its private TELECOM company ATT to china becasue of stragetic reasons! or Petro-chemical refinary to china!(google it)
Even the gum you chew is not made by a turkish company any more, I suggest you check it next time you chew a piece of gum. Cheers.

This is nonsense
Kemalism achieved a great deal in 90 years including periods of strong economic growth, the building of a strong and independent Turkey with a western vocation, the liberation (at least in law) of women, universal suffrage, universal education, a good industrial foundation and I could keep going..
AKP got lucky in coming to power after the Kemalists had put in place the infrastructure to allow Turkey to benefit from globalisation and claim the last ten years of economic growth as their own.
Which does not mean the Kemalists made no mistakes.. they made plenty but so did the proto Islamists

Why does everyone, when speaking about Turkey's modernization, point to women as a "symbol" of success? True liberation would not put up on a pedestal the dress, manners, religion, culture etc. of women as a "success story" for all to see; rather you would see them free to do their own bidding instead of being symbolized as a measure of progress. Where have all of my feminists gone?

Telephone tapes, if they are real, seem to show that generals discussed a coup but decided against one.

The incriminating evidence was on anonymously delivered documents. Key documents dated 2003 have been proven to be manufactured: They name streets, which did not have the given name before 2007, a ship which was first commissioned in 2005, state institutions and companies which did not exist under the given names before 2008 / 2009.

The court made no effort to sort out real and manufactured documents much less try to find out who was doing the manufacturing.
People were convicted as if all documents were real, including people, who were in foreign countries, thousands of miles away from the key planning exercise, which was the reason for convicting them.

They were convicted for a crime, a coup, which “was prevented as it was happening”. This is the legals basis of the court decision. No coup was attempted nor prevented.

The Guardian called this trial a Turkish version of Stalin’s 1936/37 Moscow show trials.

Next, the people who have been in jail since 2007 for allegedly being members of an Ergenekon terror organisation will be convicted, although such an organization does not exist.

The reason why such a sham trial leads to such euphoria lies in the fact that it is thought to be breaking the Turkish army. To understand the reasons, let us look at the Turkish army.

This is an ancient organization. It commemorates its 2212th anniversary this year. The date is founded on Chinese reports of a reorganization of the army of the neighboring Turkish empire. The army is much older, losing its origins at the dawn of history.
There has always been a Turkish army.

In the 14th century the army of the Ottoman principality, which was later to become one of the largest and longest lasting Empires of all time, was reorganized on the Roman model. Turkey was born through the Islamisation of Rome, much of her culture is of Roman origin.

In the 18th century, when Turkey started losing wars, the Ottoman Empire responded with a modernization of military education. Key dates are 1776, the foundation of the Imperial Naval House of Engineering and 1795 Imperial Army House of Engineering. These institutions of higher education assured that the Ottoman Officers Corps became a highly educated elite. Although the secular Republic has created an education boom, especially in the last decades, the officers’ schools are still some of the best in the country.

In the second half of the 19th century colonialist powers with their modern weapons and nationalist movements were shaking the foundations of the Ottoman State. The Churches were the basic organisation of the nationalism of the Christian groups. The higher levels of the Islamic organization were under tight control of the Imperial government which would not allow nationalist activities. The lower levels, the village imams, were (and are) concerned with Islamic rituals and did not, and do not have any intellectual abilities beyond that. The Arabic word “imam” means someone who stands in front of the others. That is what they do.

Under these circumstances, the Turkish Army became the organization of the nationalism of the Moslem ethnicities, who later called themselves Turks. The modern concept includes not only ethnic Turks, but also Greek, Armenian, Bosnian, Cherkess (Caucasus) etc. speaking Moslem groups.

Without getting lost in details, this is what the Ottoman/Turkish army did.

1908 the re-introduction of democracy, which was interrupted by the Tsarist Russian war in 1877-78

1912 the realization in the first Balkan war, when European Turkey was partitioned among Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, and Moslem majority subjected to genocide, that Anatolia, the still remaining region, would be next. Partition plan being discussed in the colonialists’ press saw a partitioning among Greece, Armenia, Russia, France and Italy coming.

1914 Turkey enters WW 1 which knocked out her worst enemy, Tsarist Russia. After that the aspirations of the others were frustrated by the Turkish army.

1923 democracy becomes a casualty of the wars Turkey was having to fight

1924-1938 secularisation and modernization of the Turkish state under military leadership.

1943 Chief of Staff Field Marshal Chakmak gets the Jews out of the Ashkale concentration camp and sets them free, after the government had put them under Nazi pressure

1945 Chief of Staff Field Marshal Chakmak tells President Inonu, time had come to reintroduce democracy.

1946 democracy is reintroduced, 1950 the opposition replaces the Inonu government

1960 A coup overthrows elected Prime Minister Menderes, who realizing he would be losing the elections had started installing a dictatorship. Banning newspapers, jailing opponents.

1961 Army introduces the most liberal constitution Turkey ever had. The 1960ies and the 1970ies see a flowering of civil society.

1970 - 1980 Leninists fight a bloody insurgency to bring Turkey the bliss of a Marxist Leninist regime. 5000 people get killed. Parliament is paralysed, in 9 months no president can be elected. The economy is in crisis, no oil, cigarettes, sugar is available. Turkey is bankrupt

1980 the military defeat the insurgency. The economy recovers with a boom. A new constitution ends the chaos of the 70ies.

1990 The army refuses to invade Iraq in the Gulf war, rejecting an order by President Ozal who had agreed with Bush I that he would help the American invasion.

1990ies Kurdish Leninists fight a blood insurgency to bring a separate Kurdistan the bliss of Stalinist rule and are defeated.

1997 – 2002 a first attempt to stem a rising Islamist tide fails, when elected incompetent politicians who rule the country after Islamists are helped out of government, bankrupt the economy.

2002 the AKP is elected.

2003 The army refuses to put the AKP under pressure to invade Iraq in the second Gulf war, as the Americans were asking them.

The Islamists want to live according to Gods orders. These are given in the Quran, word by word written by God and the Islamic tradition. This is not Christianity invented and continuously modified by the Church. Man can not change God’s Word. This is why any Islamic group, moderate or not, will in the end obey God’s orders and kill homosexuals, stone adulterers and chop off thieves’ hands. Seems we also have a duty to murder any Jews we see.

Moslems can ignore God’s word and hope He will forgive them, this is what secularism is all about. Civilization in a Moslem country is only possible in a secular country.

Islamists do not understand why Turkey had to become secular and claim without secularism Turkey would be as advanced as Japan. In reality, Japan was an industrial power in 1900 when the Ottoman Empire was exporting wheat and importing flour because it did not even have windmills. It was the secular Republic which has been developing continuously since 1924 and is by no coincidence the most advanced Islamic country.

It is also no coincidence that September 2012 has seen: the Sledgehammer imprisoning of the Generals and the start of the abolishment of secular education. In this single most important act of the Islamist counterrevolution, physics and mathematics lessons are being replaced by Mohammed’s life and Quran lessons.
Those of us, who read the Economist, will remember an analysis of Saudi Arabia, which so the Economist said, was not industrializing, because it has only people educated in religion, who were worthless in the real world. That is where Turkey also is now heading.

A lot of noise is made in Turkey by a group of Leninists, whose revolution was frustrated in 1980 and who are now revenging this frustration of their youthful dreams by calling themselves liberals and fighting the army in their daily newspaper Taraf, partisan.

The Europeans, whose attempt to partition Turkey in 1920 failed and who would love Turkey to give up land to Kurds, Armenians and Greeks also understand that this will only be possible if the army is broken.

The USA would like a subordinate Turkish army which will obey political “masters” and fight the wars they are asking for. Unlike the Europeans and the AKP they need a Turkish army, so that what is happening now is not really in their interest. Unfortunately this is not a very competent generation of American politicians.

"This is why any Islamic group, moderate or not, will in the end obey God’s orders and kill homosexuals, stone adulterers and chop off thieves’ hands. Seems we also have a duty to murder any Jews we see."

Although I respect your opinions, and enjoy reading your contribution to these discussions, THIS TIME, you've really gone OVERBOARD.

I realize you have it in for Erdogan, but please, restrain yourself.
You're beginning to sound like an intolerant Islamophobe.

and then you got Crazy..
a few more facts Part 1
“It commemorates its 2212th anniversary this year. The date is founded on Chinese reports of a reorganization of the army of the neighboring Turkish empire. The army is much older, losing its origins at the dawn of history. There has always been a Turkish army.”
Turkey is not a country with an army but an army with a country? 2212 years? Impressive. Smacks of the 3000 year Reich…. There is a mural on the stairs at the entrance to the General staff HQ in Ankara which depicts this little bit of creation mythology and a little park in Istanbul with mostly and necessarily fictional depictions of the founders of the 16 Turkic Empires. This is the real historical fact: Some 200 years before the Common Era a group called the Xiongnu, meaning fierce slaves and in modern Chinese nomads, came into the consciousness of the Chinese Empire because of raids along their Northern border. Who exactly these people were is unknown – for Turkish nationalists they were Hunnish but this is hotly disputed. We only know about them from Chinese sources. They, the Xiongnu wrote neither in Uncial Amharic nor Mongolian Aramaic. Of course they spoke modern Turkish.
“In the 14th century the army of the Ottoman principality, which was later to become one of the largest and longest lasting Empires of all time, was reorganized on the Roman model. Turkey was born through the Islamisation of Rome, much of her culture is of Roman origin.”
The notion that the lisping Osman or his daddy organised or reorganised their Beylik on the Roman model is laughable. What happened is that the 11th of the Ottoman dynasty conquered the rump Eastern Empire in 1453 and inherited a relatively functional form of Government that had evolved from the Roman model (spot the nuanced differences). While it is true that much of Turkish culture derives from Eastern Rome, it should not be thought that the Latin “Romans” had so much in common with the Greek “Romans” culturally philosophically or otherwise – this is at least part of the reason the first Great Schism happened in the catholic Church, creating the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic branches. Effectively what Mr Tahir is saying is that much of Turkish culture is Greek in origin.
“In the 18th century, when Turkey started losing wars, the Ottoman Empire responded with a modernization of military education. Key dates are 1776, the foundation of the Imperial Naval House of Engineering and 1795 Imperial Army House of Engineering. These institutions of higher education assured that the Ottoman Officers Corps became a highly educated elite. Although the secular Republic has created an education boom, especially in the last decades, the officers’ schools are still some of the best in the country.”
This is broadly true and Turkish military officers are among the best in the world (although their grasp of economics is a bit shaky to say the least); what it neglects to mention is that the Empire started to lose because the armed forces refused to use modern weapons, that the reform efforts were stymied by mutinies and coups and that the reform efforts were largely led by foreigners, in particular by French officers.
“In the second half of the 19th century colonialist powers with their modern weapons and nationalist movements were shaking the foundations of the Ottoman State.”
As noted above the brilliant Ottoman Army had access to modern weapons but chose not to use them.
“The Churches were the basic organisation of the nationalism of the Christian groups.”
This was a choice of the Ottoman Empire; the State was divided on religious lines with the various “nations” within it having considerable autonomy under their religious leaders. The efforts at reform of this system in the 19th century came too late and too ineffectually to make a difference. Much is made by Turkish nationalists of Ottoman religious tolerance but make no mistake, this was not the religious tolerance we talk of today – non-muslim subjects were forbidden from wearing certain clothes, were required to wear black shoes and yellow sashes, had significant restrictions on the ways in which they could make a living etc etc; they were dhimmi.

a few more facts Part 2
“The higher levels of the Islamic organization were under tight control of the Imperial government which would not allow nationalist activities. The lower levels, the village imams, were (and are) concerned with Islamic rituals and did not, and do not have any intellectual abilities beyond that. The Arabic word “imam” means someone who stands in front of the others. That is what they do.”
I am not sure what Mr Tahir’s point is here – I think what he is trying to say is that an expression of Muslim nationalism or Turkish nationalism was prevented by central control of the clever people and the basic stupidity of rural people.
“Under these circumstances, the Turkish Army became the organization of the nationalism of the Moslem ethnicities, who later called themselves Turks. The modern concept includes not only ethnic Turks, but also Greek, Armenian, Bosnian, Cherkess (Caucasus) etc. speaking Moslem groups.”
He forgot the Kurds.
“Without getting lost in details, this is what the Ottoman/Turkish army did.”
To get lost in details would mean having to abandon some of this nonsense so we will ignore that.
“1908 the re-introduction of democracy, which was interrupted by the Tsarist Russian war in 1877-78”
The Ottoman Army did not re-introduce democracy in 1908. You cannot re-introduce what was never there. The reforms of the Tanzimat era went some way to making the Empire less autocratic but to describe them as democracy… well… Remember their main aim was to replace the Millet system with a sense of Ottoman Nationalism, hence the “concessions” to the non-Muslim Millets, and a remarkably long sighted view of what we now call universal rights inspired by the ideals of the French revolution. The proclamation of the constitution and establishment of a nascent parliament by a new Emperor in 1876 can be interpreted as an effort to demonstrate to the other Great Powers that the Ottoman Empire would not allow the recent atrocities in the Balkans to be repeated and the suspension of that Parliament can be regarded as the weakness of the Emperor responding to Turkish military advisers views that the Parliament weakened the Empire’s ability to wage war against Russia. The 1908 restoration of the Constitution was in effect a coup by the Army.
“1912 the realization in the first Balkan war, when European Turkey was partitioned among Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, and Moslem majority subjected to genocide, that Anatolia, the still remaining region, would be next. Partition plan being discussed in the colonialists’ press saw a partitioning among Greece, Armenia, Russia, France and Italy coming.”
By now the Ottoman Empire was in terminal decline. The failures of governance from the beginning of the 19th century, the gross indebtedness of the State, the pitiful condition of the Ottoman Army’s troops, neglected while their officers played politics, all meant that the Empire could not resist disintegration.
“1914 Turkey enters WW 1 which knocked out her worst enemy, Tsarist Russia. After that the aspirations of the others were frustrated by the Turkish army.”
1914 The Empire entered WWI at the behest of Germany. German Officers sent to assist the training and arming of the Imperial army believe their uniforms, weapons and tactics are 2114 years old. In the same month that Liman Von Sanders puts into operation his plan for the defence of the Dardanelles and promotes Mustafa Kemal to the rank of Colonel, Mehmet Talaat Pasha issues a circular which is interpreted by some Army Officers as a license to kill Armenian citizens. Despite the valiant resistance at Gallipoli it is clear that the Ottoman Empire will not survive the war and plans are drawn up for the administration of the conquered territories – the US not at this point being involved in the war is not included in these discussions. The Empire is defeated and its legitimate representatives accept a peace treaty which broadly follows those plans.

a few more facts Part 3
“1923 democracy becomes a casualty of the wars Turkey was having to fight”
Something can only become a casualty if it exists. Following the signing of the Treaty of Sevres, Mustafa Kemal mutinied against the legitimate Government and led a coup to fight the legitimate (under the Terms of the Treaty agreed by the Ottoman Government) Greek occupation forces. Those forces made two fatal mistakes – they overestimated their capabilities and the willingness of the UK to support one of the several contradictory promises it had made to persuade various States to enter the war and they underestimated Mustafa Kemal’s brilliant leadership. This led them to try and expand their mandate beyond what had been agreed. They were defeated, Smyrna got the Dresden treatment (albeit without aircraft) and everybody else got a new Treaty. Muslim Cretans were expelled to Germany.
“1924-1938 secularisation and modernization of the Turkish state under military leadership.”
Creation of the Turkish State as a secular republic – Turkish language cleansed and westernised, Turkish dress replaced by western dress, Sultanate and Caliphate abolished, schools of Islamic learning abolished, Tekkes closed down; Tarikats criminalised; Statist economic model introduced; MK becomes MKA (and a lot of cruel Muhtars give the descendants of illiterate men embarrassing family names). MKA dies in the Palace of the Hunkar he overthrew, of alcohol related liver disease.
“1943 Chief of Staff Field Marshal Chakmak gets the Jews out of the Ashkale concentration camp and sets them free, after the government had put them under Nazi pressure”
1942 the Government imposes a draconian Capital Tax on the religious minorities (Jews, Armenians, Orthodox), impoverishing them and forcing many to sell family businesses, pay the tax and leave Turkey, denuding the country of many of its best entrepreneurs.
“1945 Chief of Staff Field Marshal Chakmak tells President Inonu, time had come to reintroduce democracy.”
You cannot reintroduce what has never existed. Fevzi Cakmak retired from the Army in 1944. Turkey became a founding member of the United Nations and many in CHP felt that the principles espoused in the UN Charter should apply also in Turkey. Inonu finally caved to the internal and external pressure to conform with what Turkey had agreed, at least in appearance: there was not a universal secret vote in the 1946 election and CHP won an overwhelming majority.
“1946 democracy is reintroduced, 1950 the opposition replaces the Inonu government”
You cannot reintroduce what has never existed. The 1950 election was Turkey’s first democratic one.
“1960 A coup overthrows elected Prime Minister Menderes, who realizing he would be losing the elections had started installing a dictatorship. Banning newspapers, jailing opponents.”
1954 – 1957: Menderes’s Parliamentary majority allowed him to introduce wide ranging reforms to make Turkey more democratic and less secular, causing great upset to CHP and the Military who together incited violent demonstrations against the Governement creating instability; the Government responded by imposing martial law, restricting press freedoms and jailing terrorists.
1960: The Army Cadets mutinied when students became the target of these restrictive measures and their commanders decided the only way to restore order was to overthrow the democratically elected Government. Some scholars believe that the Army feared DP would further increase its share of the vote and reverse the remaining secularisation measures introduced by Ataturk.

A few more facts part 4
“1961 Army introduces the most liberal constitution Turkey ever had. The 1960ies and the 1970ies see a flowering of civil society.”
1962: Army officers mutiny at what they see as the betrayal of the 1960 Coup; they are purged, but later pardoned by Inonu.
1961: A constituent assembly, established under the Committee of National Unity government installed by the military regime, passed a draft constitution which was approved 60% - 40% in a referendum of the Turkish people. The strong opposition to the constitution worried the Army.
1961: Following show trials of some 600 DP leaders, activists and supporters, the former Prime Minister (Menderes) is executed having been found guilty of trumped up charges.
The flowering of civil society through the 1960s includes the emergence of left and right wing groups and political parties with very different visions of Turkey’s future. One of these groups in particular has a profound impact on Turkish political life. Alparslan Turkes’s neo-fascist Grey Wolves begin to attack left wingers and left wing meetings. They are backed by the Army (and the US who approve of their anti-communist work). At the same time left wingers are running a bombing and assassination campaign. Ultimately, as much in fear of the National Order Party as the Communists the Military High Command pre-empt a coup by Grey Wolf sympathiser junior officers and bring about a temporary lull in the conflicts with a paper coup.
“1970 - 1980 Leninists fight a bloody insurgency to bring Turkey the bliss of a Marxist Leninist regime. 5000 people get killed. Parliament is paralysed, in 9 months no president can be elected. The economy is in crisis, no oil, cigarettes, sugar is available. Turkey is bankrupt”
1974: In a classic case of distracting the populace from the real problems facing Turkey with national imperatives the terminally weak Ecevit sends a little girl on holidays in Cyprus.
“1980 the military defeat the insurgency. The economy recovers with a boom. A new constitution ends the chaos of the 70ies.”
To prevent the outbreak of civil war the military stage a real coup and install a military junta which imposes a military dictatorship on Turkey. The economy goes into a downward spiral under the gross economic mismanagement of the Army. In 1983 the military dictate a deeply flawed constitution which severely limits basic rights and hinders Turkey’s development.
1983: Quasi-democracy is restored and an economic reforming Prime Minister, the half-Kurdish Turgut Ozal, comes to power; he corrects the military idiocies and the Turkish economy booms.
1984: The half-Kurdish Abdullah Ocalan, a some-time left wing student from the 1970s who fought the Grey Wolves, orders his PKK to start a terrorist campaign in Turkey. Ocalan is backed by the Soviet Union, which even then supported Syria (where he is based)
“1990 The army refuses to invade Iraq in the Gulf war, rejecting an order by President Ozal who had agreed with Bush I that he would help the American invasion.”
1990: In spite of incredible pressure from the US Ozal refuses to order the Army to invade Iraq, opting instead to deploy units in invasion posture on the Iraqi border, forcing the Iraqi high command to deploy units in defensive posture and diverting them from the South, allowing the US to come to the aid of its ally Kuwait which had been invaded by Iraq. Ozal also shuts down the pipelines from Northern Iraq and allows the US to operate out of Incirlik Airbase in its bombing campaign against Iraq. The Turkish airforce provides the US with full logistics support.
“1990ies Kurdish Leninists fight a blood insurgency to bring a separate Kurdistan the bliss of Stalinist rule and are defeated.”
Which is why they are unable now to kill 10 -20 Turkish soldiers everyday.
“1997 – 2002 a first attempt to stem a rising Islamist tide fails, when elected incompetent politicians who rule the country after Islamists are helped out of government, bankrupt the economy.”
1997: After the horribly corrupt Prime Minister is thrown out of office an Islamist led Government comes to power. The first time it shows its Islamist credentials the Army sends tanks onto the streets for a little drive around: the spineless Government folds.
“2003 The army refuses to put the AKP under pressure to invade Iraq in the second Gulf war, as the Americans were asking them.”
2003: In spite of incredible pressure from the US, Prime Minister Erdogan refuses to order the Army to invade Iraq and annoys them by not allowing them to deploy on the Iraqi border in spite of Iraqi attempts to draw them in by firing missiles at civilian targets. The army is also prevented from discussing logistics support to the US invasion and other than the UN approved no-fly zone missions US aircraft are not allowed to use Incirlik airbase for attacks on Iraq.

a few more facts Part 5
“The events above define the enemies of the Turkish army.”
The enemies of the Turkish army I assume are the same as the enemies of Turkey. Or are they?
“This is not Christianity invented and continuously modified by the Church.”
This is an interesting concept – Christianity invented and continuously modified.. I think most Christians would disagree with you, indeed most Christians disagree with each other. And the reason is simple – Christianity has one commandment – Love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself – this is the eternal and unchanging message delivered by God and never changed. Where there are differences they are in how we achieve those goals, what is acceptable and what is not. Christianity recognises human failings and says that because we know God loves us as a father he will forgive us a father forgives his children. It acknowledges difference and division and seeks unity through peace. Which is not to say, so called Christian rulers have not failed. They have in their thousands.
“Man can not change God’s Word. This is why any Islamic group, moderate or not, will in the end obey God’s orders and kill homosexuals, stone adulterers and chop off thieves’ hands. Seems we also have a duty to murder any Jews we see.”
So what are the Muslim interests you care about so much?
“Moslems can ignore God’s word and hope He will forgive them, this is what secularism is all about. Civilization in a Moslem country is only possible in a secular country.”
“Islamists do not understand why Turkey had to become secular and claim without secularism Turkey would be as advanced as Japan. In reality, Japan was an industrial power in 1900 when the Ottoman Empire was exporting wheat and importing flour because it did not even have windmills. It was the secular Republic which has been developing continuously since 1924 and is by no coincidence the most advanced Islamic country.”
There is no doubt that the tension between the elitist secularist tradition imposed by Ataturk and the populist Islamist tradition which has existed since the foundation of the republic has continuously interrupted and delayed Turkey’s development. The disastrous Statism, modelled on that of the USSR, in the early years of the Republic definitely did Turkey no favours and the essential economic illiteracy of so many who ran Turkey ensured far too much volatility. But you are right, the refusal of the elite to adopt modern technology in the 19th Century held back Turkey’s economic development. Of course you don’t count Malaysia or Indonesia as Islamic countries.
“The Europeans, whose attempt to partition Turkey in 1920 failed and who would love Turkey to give up land to Kurds, Armenians and Greeks also understand that this will only be possible if the army is broken.”
What most European Governments really want is a Turkey which gets its act together. An unstable, underdeveloped Turkey is bad for Europe. A Turkey that is at war with itself is bad for Europe. A Turkey that has bad relations with all its neighbours is bad for Europe. No European country wants Turkey to be broken up, but they do want Turkey to fulfil its European vocation, and that means respecting basic rights of all citizens, having an independent judiciary, having the army under civil control, having full democracy – as is the case in all EU member States.
“The USA would like a subordinate Turkish army which will obey political “masters” and fight the wars they are asking for. Unlike the Europeans and the AKP they need a Turkish army, so that what is happening now is not really in their interest. Unfortunately this is not a very competent generation of American politicians.”
The USA does not need a subordinate Turkish army – it needs reliable allies. Turkey has been the USs most reliable ally since it joined NATO and remains one of the most reliable. It is very nervous about the volatility of the current Turkish Prime Minister who it sees as jeopardising its alliance.

Fahrettin Bey
I am sure a man of your obvious intelliegence will forgive my long response to your long submission but I could not allow you to reduce the great complexity, richness and subtlety of the Turkish historical experience to a few nationalist slogans some of which are clear distortions of the facts.

History is a funny thing because wherever you sit it looks different and history without context is not history, just opinion and of course we all know the old adage that history is written by the winners - I wonder how it would look if say it had been enver Pasha who led the war of independence, or if the Russians had defeated Turkey and overrun Eastern Anatolia - The Turkish SSR... and the realisation of the Pan Turkic Dream, or if the Orthodox population of Istanbul had not been ethnically cleansed in the 1950s or indeed if the Muslim population of the Balkans had not been forced out... But we have to deal with the hear and now....

Mr Gugan says "but make no mistake, this was not the religious tolerance we talk of today" Of course NOT! Who in their logical mind would compare today's rights to 100-200 years ago! (Women could not vote in Europe or USA those times!) it was much better than European way of tolerance of different religious group. Where Europe was burning people on stake or Jews were killed every year or thought to be child killers, Ottomans gave them refuge and a life with opportunities(check 1492 spain deportation, killings of Jews, Muslims), check Dresfus affair, Nazis all over Europe, not just Germans(just 70 years ago)

Just 60 years ago, BLACKs in USA (which we all know though "marketing, sales, propaganda" thinks it is great at EQUALITY)could not drink from the same fountain or eat at the same restaurant! Jews were not allowed at Harvard or other Ivy schools! So make no mistake, this fantasy of great democracy, equal rights of West is just a fantasy (for 19th, early, mid 20th century). Yes it was for Protestants or whover group was in charge of the government.

Well, I had some conversations with mr "Tahir" before, I think he is israeli origin,(most likely Turkish immigrant there)
or works for Israeli propaganda office in USA.which they do have media offices in large cosmoplitan cities to monitor media and post comments in favor of Israel.
Not that I do not agree with some of his comments, some of them are correct, some are totally out there, The reason I posted above, if you look at old comments, He could not even critize Netanyahu, an extremist war monger. That kind of gave away his true identity. When he tried to defend Netanyahu. No one in their logical mind will defend netanyahu, even Logical israelis do not like that lad. So Just like Sherlock says, process of deduction leads you to the truth.

Fahrettin bey, You really have to get away from believing that because somebody presents a fact, that they approve of or endorse or support that fact. A fact is a fact. I have never criticised Turkish indepenence or stated that Turkey should have accepted being partitioned and colonised. You are a liar when you say this. Unlike you I don’t say things like “There was a war, you lost, the winners got the territory”. As a nationalist I support the right of nations to self determination. Too many Turks want to believe that somehow Sevres was imposed on Turkey without Turkey’s consent. The fact is the legitimate Government of Turkey accepted Sevres. It is also a fact that Mustafa Kemal disobeyed his chain of command. In any military doctrine that is mutiny. Would Ataturk be revered today if his mutiny had gone wrong? If, for example, the Greeks had reached Ankara? Or would he be regarded as the Devil who lost the rest of Anatolia in spite of the victors being generous and allowing an independent rump Ottoman State to exist? If you are not capable of asking that question you are not capable of historical analysis. But he did not lose. He won, and went on to create the modern secular Turkey. Yes, I think he made some mistakes, but he was (sometimes) prepared to correct them – dumping Inonu when he realised that the Statist industrial policy was going the wrong way as one example. Those who followed him made even more mistakes. But on the whole the Turkey of Ataturk has been and is a great State. If you are the rational secularist that you claim to be you have to stop believing in conspiracy theories and start taking some responsibility for yourself and your country. You have stop playing the victim and talking like the 17 year old boy in the school playground who complains that nobody likes him and thinks it’s because the boy in the striped shirt has organised everybody to gang up on him. Or the girl in red blue and yellow dress he used to date is talking about him behind his back. Or the guy wearing the skirt and the funny shoes is trying tokill him.

On the contrary Mr Tahir is an ultra Nationalist Turk who while claiming not to support MHP displays many of the characteristics of a Grey Wolf. He is afraid to criticize Israel because he does not want to betray his imagined heritage of tolerance.

Well actually quite a lot of my Turkish friends do, including Mr Tahir. And that is exactly my point...the suggestion that the Ottoman Empire was a haven of tolerance is based on the Iberian expulsion and admission to the Empire by a a particularly enlightened Sultan, who still required that it be possible to identify them on the street. And Turkish law still requires that your ID card shows your religious identity? Why?
Jews and those of other faiths were generally tolerated throughout Europe from very early times and Jews in particular provided important services, like early forms of Banking. As Islam advanced, as rulers became threatened, anti- Jewish and anti-foreigner sentiment rose. With the reformation this reached fever pitch and Jews in partuclar suffered terrible persecution. This waned as the enlightenment dawned but increased again when nationalism reached a peak in the 1900s. I need no lessons about Dreyfus or the Protocols (which many, including in Turkey, believe to be genuine) or the Shoah and the role played across Europe by Nazi sympathisers. And I know well the discrimination that existed, even still exists, in the US towards Blacks, hispanics, Catholics, Irish, Jews etc etc.
While the threat of persecution was always present, most Jews enjoyed a life with opportunities.
Tell me in all honesty that no Jew or Christian was killed for being a Jew or a Christian in the Ottoman empire; tell me in all honesty that there was never a pogrom in the Empire.
Tell me in all honesty that juews and Christians could drink from the same fountains as Muslims.

Not really, you have not read his writing I see. It is a fact, I was thinking similar lines, till it came time to criticize Netanyahu, crazy extremist, racist person, he could not even criticize him, he turned against Turks actually at that time. It was kind of funny to see. I still believe he works for Israel propaganda office in USA somewhere. they(israel) do have media offices in big cities in USA and work 24 hours to respond to any negative or positive media reports. Which is good for them, not that anything wrong. but once it becomes playing fake roles, games, then it is sick.

there is NO religious identity cards in Turkey now, get your fact right. Are you a Greek-Cyrpirot with hate again? I think instead of your hate, concentrate on your Economy and treat immigrants with human rights and respect, instead of beating them up in camps.
There were no Polgrams like the ones that happened in the middle of "civilized Europe" yes NOne in Ottomans for being a Jew.

Just 60 years ago, you could not drink from the same fountain in USA, blacks could not sit at the same restaurant!! this is 20TH century!! not 19TH OR 18TH century! Are you kdding me? Middle of 20th centruty, there were linching of blacks in the middle of some town on a tree! Japanese were in camps during ww2! Jews could not attend any good school. till later half of 20th century. or get regular jobs.

In Europe every year there were killings of Jews, Roma etc. are you kidding me? from the start. there was no tolerance. even today, Just 3-5 days ago, ROMA camps were burned in FRANCE(it might be some other European, my memory failing me), just google it! they are still treated like animal, actually animals are treated better in Europe than Roma people. Greece just put all the immigrants in Concetration camps. beat them and let them die in the sea while trying to cross. So please do not talk about Ottomans that was 200 years ago.
In Afganistan, how many innnocent civilians are killed every day? It is called "collarateral damage" When it is you, then you are human, when it is some afgani or iraqi, does not matter, does it? Just a week or 2 weeks ago, 8-10 women are killed by a NATO, how does that fits in your human rights conscious? It does not enter it since no one speaks about them, it is like they are not humans.

Europeans are the original exterminators, killers. let's face it, Whole population of Aztecs, Americas are exterminated totally by the europeans without even a tear in their eyes, Do you hear about them? it was probably 10-50million people who got killed.
How about CONGO? 10million africans killed late 19th century by Belgium king Leopold. 10 MILLION!! So before you give ottoman empire talk, Read your own history and then compare, nothing compares to the savage, uncivilized killings of Europeans around the world. Even between themselves, just WW2, 100 million people got killed!
Dont forget Israel killing women and children in 2006, and previous ones.
How about JAPAN, hirosima? babies, women got killed by a single weapon. Do you remember the innocent babies? I bet not.

My Turkish Identity card (Kimlik) has my religion on it...
Was Baghdad part of the ottoman Empire in the 17th Century?
Was Al Quds part of the empire in the 18th Century?
What happened in Istanbul in 1956?
What happened in Van in 1915?
What happened in Damascus in 1852?

"Mustafa Kemal mutinied against the legitimate Government and led a coup to fight the legitimate (under the Terms of the Treaty agreed by the Ottoman Government) Greek occupation forces." what are you talking about? a government not elected by the people is NOT legitimate and a government who agrees to foreign occupation and selling out its own country to foreigners is NOT LEGITIMATE!
NAZI Germany was not legitimate.
What did the Greek occupying army did in Turkey? Raped and killed and burned villages by the hundreds! killed innocent women and children, raped them. that is the reason Turks said Enough is enough. and rose up and started to fight against British and its proxy killers Greek army. You would not hear about the killings in western media much, since it is British dominated of course (just like what they did in India) but if you read a little history by objective historians (europeans or non europeans) you will see the real truth. they tried to destroy the Turkish nation as a whole, and Ottoman government agreed on this to save their own skin.

On contrary, he is israeli who pretends to be turkish nationalist with the aim of defaming this government, believe me. He made a mistake last time commenting on Netanyahu, even attack Turkey siding with Netanyahu. this gave him away, I guess he got emotional when I told the truth that Netanyahu is a racist, extremist religious crazy person with the aim of killing people.
Period.

What you write reflects a tiny portion of opinion in modern Turkey and the paranoia of the permanent victim - this is a psychosis that can be treated. If you spoke to the Turks you despise, if you spoke to the young kids who want a propserous secular Turkey you would know this. Instead you sit at the hearth and tell old war stories.

is that the logic you have? He found it all over Europe of course, every nation in Europe sent their own Jews to be killed by the nazis! hellooo!
Why there are millions of African Americans in USA, even though they were slaves, killed by the thousands through centuries. Just because there are people in a nation that does not mean they are tolerated. Look at ROMA people all over europe, they live like animals, treated like animal all over Europe, they cannot get educations, rights, etc. Just 3 days ago, their CAMP was burned down in France! middle of 21st century, you got racists burning down people's homes for what?? being a different race!

I do not deny any bad things Ottomans did at all, they were an empire, just like any empire they did bad things, killed innocent people. But comparing to European killings, it is nothing, Europeans perfected the killing, mainly in AMERICAS then adopted to Europe itself.
Just with one ATOMIC weapon, you killed 100thousand people without discriminting against women or children, what is that called? Genocide? or WAR CRIME? or Dresden bombing by British. another war crime. Bush should be tried in a court and put in Guantonamo as a war criminal and Blair also. but since they are the Rich and powerful, people do not touch them. any logical and if there is a god, would see them as evil people who killed thousands of innocent people because someone killed 3000 people. why not go after the killers? instead of mass killing of Afganis or iraqis? which Iraq was not even involved. Punish the real killers, not children and women.

what happened in 1912 Balkans wars? what happened in 1963 Cyprus?
what happened in Palestine 1780s Napoleon killed unarmed 3000 ottomans? 1805 by Russians? Crimea by Russians? in Georgia by Russians and Armenians? IN ADANA, Cicilia by Armenians and French in 1919-1921?
Balkan wars 1912, 500 thousand Turks?
Bosnia in 1996?
Crete by Greek in 1881? massacred the whole population of Turks from the island, not a single Turk left on that island now, go visit now and find out.
Armenians in Azerbeycan Nagornokaradag Hojali massacre in 1992
see photos of your friends Armenians as recent as 1992 what they did to babies, kind of ironic again.http://www.azerbaijan.az/_GeneralInfo/_Events/events_03_e.html

What you have just said is that the Ottoman empire was not legitimate from beginning to end? No Ottoman Government was elected.

That said, the notion of an autocratic monarch was not entirely extinct in 1920 and the Government was recognised in international law... that makes it legitimate.

And if your test of legitimacy is election then, sorry to break this news to you, but Hitler was elected.

Of course the Greek slaughter in Anatolia was reported - it is one of the reasons the Greeks lost support. But you know, uncomfortable as it is to accept what the Turkish Army did in Izmir was every bit as barbaric. But hey, that is war and after what they had seen marching towards Izmir it is entirely understandable that rage was let loose.

What was the Jewish population of the ottoman empire in 1600? What was it in 1900?
What was the Jewish population of Europe in 1600?
What was the Jewish population of Europe in 1900?
When you have those figures come back and tell me where Jews prospered most, as meaured by the percentage growth in their population.

Roma face terrible discrimination (in Turkey too by the way) but one incident of burning does not make it State policy or institutionalised racism.

There was an Alevi family forced out of their home by Turkish neighbours a few weeks ago - does this make all Turks racists and say that there is institutional discrimnation against Alevis?

Perhaps your understanding of the word tolerated is different from mine; blacks make up 14% of the population of the US and the US has a black President - when will Turkey have a Jewish President?

Your friend Fahrettin Bey says there 5 Million killed in 1912 wars..
Yes all these things happened and you and I can trade questions about incidents and wars going through centuries but that gets away rather skilfully on your part from the original question which was that the ottoman empire was not whiter than white in its treatmnent of religious minorities including Jews

I take it fromn your lack of response that you accept that there were massacres of Jews and Armenians in the Ottoman Empire?

Excuse me - I did not kill anybody and I have never used an atomic weapon. How many Afghanis were killed by the invading force? And how many were killed by the Taliban before the invasion? And how many Hazara were killed by Pashtun and Uzbek killed by Tajik? And in Iraq how many Shia were killed by Sunni and vice versa, and how many were killed by thre invading force?
I agree, the invasion of Iraq was illegal and immoral, but don't blame Americans for sectarian murders. I have no problem with the military overthrow of the Taliban in Afghnaistan - they were and are scum who would return the whole world to the stone age, who brought shame on Islam, and who sheltered the Saudi dissident who bears responsibility for one of the worst acts of mass murder by a private citizen that the world has ever seen. Their treatment of women, of Shia and of kafir was and is totally unacceptable. even now they are forcing schools to close determined to keep Afghanistan in the dark ages.

Lad, no one blaming sectarian fighting on anyone, I am blaming Bush for killing more than 100000 civilians, read my lips "women, children" civilians. Isn't that enough? you need more humans to die to take responsibility? take responsibility.
as for the Saudis, who protects them? US Government! Bush flew laden family after 911! who supplies logistics, soldiers to protect the fake royals in Sauidis? have you heard about the GREEN BELT AGAINST soviets? who created these monsters? CIA! who trained them? gave them weapons. Open your eyes. read Noam Chomsky for a change and learn something other than CNN, FOX or BBC.
not: read news, every week, there are women, children being killed by drones! is that normal you think? is that acceptable in your conscious?

there were no massacres of Jews in Ottoman times. Armenians I can accept, there were some (in response to Dashnak organizations killing of civlians also)
Ottomans were a lot better than Europeans towards Jews, ask any Turkish Jews about this, You might be German Jew so you might not know it.
As for that Israel kills women and children (1500 of them during 2006) just recently, discriminates against Arabs lving there as second class or non human beings. Tortures them, so I guess it is really ironic that they do the same treatment that the europeans did to them for so long. Too bad.
For me, Arabs rose up and joined the British against the Ottomans, so It is their fault for this also. So they should deal with it.
Armenians also killing azeris as recent as 1992, women, children. So they have not learnt anything also. Same as ever.

Since the invasion of Iraq somewhere between 115000 and 130000 civilians have been killed in Iraq. Of these some 14000 to 16000 were killed by coalition troops excluding Iraqi troops allied with the invading coalition

You see Olc.er there were massacres of Jews in the Ottoman empire in Baghdad, in Damascus and in Jerusalem to name three particular examples- that is what I am talking about and various European writers talk with astonishment about Jews beinh stoned and spat upon in the Empire. In your current bombast you ignore my point, which you originally conceded in saying the tolerance of today is not the same as ther tolerance of 100 or 200 years ago, in that greatly proclaimed (by Turkish nationalists) tolerance of Jews in the Ottoman empire is exaggerated.

Israel is only responding to Palestinian terrorism; if the Palestinians stopped bombing buses and firing rockets into civilian areas the Israelis would not have todefend themselves; just like if the Kurds stopped killing Turkish soldiers, the Turkish soldiers would stop killing them.

Actually the Lancet studies estimate, using statistical sampling methods, that some 800000 more people died in Iraq than would have died if no war had taken place, which is a long way removed from them being murdered by the invasion army. As you know the quality of the Lancet studies is hotly disputed and is in conflict with similar studies by the Iraqi government and the UN which estimate between 100.000 and 150.000. Part of the reason that the Lancet study is disputed is that it significantly underestimates pre-war mortality in Iraq, giving Iraq developed world mortality rates.

The initial American counterclaim was 30.000 dead (not 300.000).

My figures refer to verified civilian deaths, with a potential variation of about 13000.

Since the invasion of Iraq somewhere between 115000 and 130000 civilians have been killed in Iraq - in fact we could say 118,999 +- 13000. Of these some 14000 to 16000 were killed by the US led invasion force (ie excluding Iraqi Governmnet troops).

In 2006 US led forces were killing an average of 56 people per day when using only their favoured car and suicide bomb tactics. Hard to count those bodies of course, as there are sometimes only a few charred fragments of bone and splatters of brain to work on.

If you truly valued the lives that have been lost you would take the trouble not to devalue them by exaggerating the numbers.

if you really value human life, everyone counts. US and NEOCONs are after EMPIRE. they are attacking everyone who challenge their power. Ideals are founding fathers are stolen or hijacks by these blood thirsty neocons. By the way, Israel killed 1600 civilians incvluding women and children, Turkish army do not kill children or women like them, Check the news last one year, Show me from say BBC, Cnn or any propaganda sites that tells you otherwise. in those huge numbers like 1600!

So it is ok to go kill women and children if it is only 15000?? you really value humans I see. And let me add, that war was on FAKE evidence of Saddam has WMD! we are still waiting those WMDs to show up. Bush and Blair should be in Hague to be tried for war crimes. but Hye they got money so no one will touch them.

are you accusing me of being antisemite? your command not clear. By the way, on the contrary, I am pro Jewish. I respect Jews, Israel as a state is not 100%Jews nor it represents every Jewish people on this earth. If you do not believe this, i suggest talk to some Jews in USA or maybe to me.
Israel has every right to exist and live in peace, but if it does bad things, we all need to admit it, stand against it. Netanyahu is a bad person who is a war monger, he will use every attempt to make war with Iran, simple fact, not that I like Iran, they can go to hell with their opporession of women and rest of young people. If I remember you could not even critizice Netanyahu, I suggest you read and open your mind, By the way, Arabs are semitic too, so that means Netanyahu is an anti-semite himself?? Or Israeli policises against ARABs, discrimination is ANTISEMITIC also. Do you agree? :)

I mention Israel or neocons in this case, since they want Turkey to get involved against IRAN or Syria, why Turks should fight a war against iran or syria? why young people has to die? if USA or Israel wants to fight, let them go ahead and do it. Gulen is a CIA tool, you know it too, you have been writing it here. I support you on this, but it is clear that US neocons are supporting GUlen for their own sick empire aims. I suggest you read JSTREET and support that group.

you are extra little chap aren't you? :))
writing here propaganda, I wonder whose paying you? I suggest you read the one on Latin America and how manupilation was used for control during soviet times, for drugs money, control.

you must be Ashenizi Jews, ask any spehardic Jew and they will tell you if Turks were bad towards Jews, or if they prefer to live under/in France, Germany or east Europeans during 1200-1945. We all know the answer, they will say Ottomans, Turks. Every year Jews were killed by Europeans through cneturies. even Greeks in 1912, in Salonica (selanic) killed and massacred Jews to get rid of them, after the balkan wars, to clear them. Just check it. Check how French sent its own Jews to gas chambers willingly to Germans. Compare to Europe, no one can beat them in massacres or killings. No one. Maybe Chinese or Soviets under Stalin might come close.
I suggest,when you put "facts" give us links or proofs.

Roma are burned every year through out europe, check Czech republic, Slovania, France, Greece. I do not hear burning of houses every month or year in Turkey for roma or alevis for that matter. Alevis are highly educated and they are elected to become ministers, even 30% parlement most likely Alevi. what are you talking about? Kurds are 20-30% of Parliament also. Ozal was Kurdish and he was the prime minister, president, Do you have a jewish president in US or UK? OR Europe?

Really disappointed in you Tahir, I respect your writings but don't use antisemitic so easily, Jews under Ottomans were always loyal unlike Arabs. They were true Turks, true ottomans, who felt it deeply, My history knows this, my relatives knows this also. So before accusing someone with this, open your mind and think first, that person you are talking to might be different or who you think is not to be.

"3. Political Developments
Romani groups in Turkey continue to experience exclusion from key human rights including housing, education, employment and health care.
In 2010, the Government recognised Roma as a group deserving attention, with the Prime Minister meeting civil society representatives and announcing a Roma “initiative.” However, since that time no comprehensive Governmental programmes addressing the situation of Roma have been developed.
The ERRC and its partners have advocated that Turkey join the Decade of Roma Inclusion, arranging for Turkish representatives to attend a meeting of the International Steering Committee, but Turkey has not yet made a decision to join. Membership in the Decade would require Turkey to produce a concrete action plan to address exclusion in the areas of health, housing, employment and education.
Similarly, the EU Framework for National Roma Integration Strategies5 encourages non-EU countries including Turkey to develop a similar strategy and action plan with concrete targets.
The Ministry of Education organised a workshop with the participation of several stakeholders in February 2011 to discuss the problems of Romani children in accessing quality education. The Ministry then announced that it would develop a strategy and action plan for inclusive education for Romani children. However, at the time of writing this submission, no progress had been reported in this work."http://www.errc.org/cms/upload/file/ecprogress-turkey-2012.pdf

"The main reason for the discrimination and mistreatment of Alevis, according to Nergis Canefe Günlük, a researcher affiliated with the Centre for Refugee Studies at York University in North York, is their religious dissidence from the dominate Sunni sect (Günlük Mar. 1994, 2); "the Alevi beliefs and religious ceremonies are claimed to be acts of heretic sects, who are allegedly engaged in defamatory religious ceremonies, who consume alcohol and do not fast or clean" (ibid.).

Alevis have reportedly grown increasingly uneasy with the recent rise of political Islam in Turkey (MEI 17 Mar. 1995, 15; McDowall May 1994, 5-6). Günlük contends that the rise in Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey has encouraged extremist right-wing movements who believe that religion and blood are sufficient cause for "ethno-religious cleansing in the form of organised political violence" (Günlük Mar. 1994, 3, 5).

On 12 March 1995 anonymous gunmen killed two or three Alevis and injured fifteen others during a shooting spree at four Alevi-owned coffee and bakery shops in Istanbul (Keesing's Mar. 1995, 40474; MEI 17 Mar. 1995, 15;. The following day as many as twenty people were killed when police opened fire on Alevi demonstrators protesting the previous day's events (ibid.; MEI 17 Mar. 1995, 15; Keesing's Mar. 1995, 40474). Several days of riots ensued as the Alevis protested poor living standards and "the exclusion of most Alevis from public life". Turkish authorities charged the fundamentalist group The Great Eastern Islamic Raiders Front with the "coffee house murders", although some Alevis claimed that elements of the Turkish security forces were responsible for the killings.

According to one source, in order to succeed in Turkish urban centres and escape discrimination, Alevis are forced to suppress their religious identity, a practice known as taqiya (Günlük Mar. 1994, 1, 3). Citing a 1992 document by David McDowall, Günlük notes that "taqiya is an accepted practice among Shi'i and heterodox Muslim sects as a mode of survival in an hostile religious environment" (ibid.). Günlük writes that Taqiya is more easily practised by Turkish Alevi than Kurdish Alevi, as Turkish Alevi often speak Anatolian Turkish dialects, thus making it less difficult for them to blend in with Turkish society (ibid.). Due to growing unemployment coupled with the prevailing harsh economic conditions in Turkey, McDowall has stated that Alevis are "likely to be discriminated against, or even targeted where they hold jobs wanted by unemployed Sunnis" (McDowall May 1994, 7).

Günlük maintains that "regardless of the ethnic component of the Alevi communities, that is to say, whether the communities identify themselves as Turkish or Kurdish Alevis, they have been subjected to pre-planned instances of organised political violence" (Günlük Mar. 1994, 4).

McDowall states that to be a Kurdish Alevi is to be a member of "a disparaged minority of a disparaged minority" (McDowall 3 Oct. 1995). Most Kurdish Alevis live around the Tunceli region, which McDowall indicates is a very mixed area with large Turkish and Kurdish Sunni populations (ibid.). As a result, many Kurdish Alevis live in areas where inter-communal tension is high, and at times explosive and "relations ... are undoubtedly worse where the Alevis are Kurds" (ibid., May 1994, 4-5; ibid. 3 Oct. 1995). In addition, most Kurdish Alevi speak Zaza, as opposed to Kurmanji, spoken by most Turkish Kurds, further differentiating the Alevi Kurds from the bulk of Turkey's Kurdish population (ibid.)."http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/3ae6ac0040.html

Benjamin Disraeli
Leon Blum
Pierre Mendes France
Walter Rathenau
Aleksander Kwaśniewski
And was Sarkozy not of Jewish origin?
are a few who come immediately to mind, but truth is most Europeans are not bothered about where or if their political leaders pray.

And that is not to metion the large numbers of Ministers and other elected politicians

Ah! you got me..
I am an employee of the Trilateral Commission and I am determined to bring about a New World Order My real name is Bill De Berg and I work with my friend Al-Uman-ata to make sure noconspiracy theory finger is pointed at our Glorious Mother See-eye-Ah.

You should maybe read Robert Cooper The Breaking of Nations to understand the depth of this conspiracy

people living in Turkey do not understand this, but the AKP has made anti-Semitizm the dominating view towards the Jews. Even people who were friends of Jews nowadays will add "but..."

Ataturk said, war is murder unless it is to defend your home. On that what the Americans did in Iraq was murder. The Israelis are defending their country and their people.

It is true that Palestine belonged to the Palestinians. Large parts of Greece and Bulgaria had majority Moslem/Turkish populations before they were invaded, the Moslems mass murdeed and deported.

We recognized realities, made peace and concentrated our energies on developing the rest we kept. People who had lost their homes were given new ones.

The Arabs keep the Palestinians in concentration camps, so that they continue to suffer and fight. Saudi Arabia for one will not give citizenship to Palestinian refugees. Palestinian suffering is a consequence of Arab policies.

The Palestinian will mount suicide attacks, and fire rockets at Israel. Whe the Isarelis defend thems elves the anti-Semitic press will report that evil Jews are murdering Palestinian children. This is onyl becaus the terrorists use their children as shields, to get them killed to make propaganda.

I live in Europe, where the press will report that warmongering lunatic Turks are attacking Kurds when the Turkish security forces fight the PKK. Then then report that the PKK is only defending the oppressed Kurds. This is an exact replica of the reporting about Iasrel you get to hear in Turkey.

Nowadays of course the Turkish security forces do not fight the PKK. The government is busy fighting the Turkish army. This si what the Economist is praising and what this article is all about

Why? Because you are able to read conspiracy and determination in everything to damage the Turks and Turkey - and your definition of who are Turks is also amusing - I wonder if you are one of those who believes that the mixed race population of the Appalachian mountains is of Turkish origin.

I was talking recently to a Burmese friend who is very annoyed that China is accusing his Government of being in allaince with the US in an effort to encircle China and he recalled that he was told at one point that the CIA had deliberately collapsed the Twin Towers so that the US could invade Afghanistan so they could have bases close to China's western border and launch a two pronged attcak when the time came. Maybe you believe this is plausible. I don't, and I put this scheme in the same basket of conspiracies as the US establishing an independent Kurdistan as a base from which to wage war on Muslim countries.

I understand your anger, your pain and your need to make sense of it all... but there is a lot less to international politics than conspiracy and lot more of simple cock-up.

I am not superior to you; I simply ask you to go to primary sources or quote them to me. I am asked for primary sources and I offer them to you. I ask you for primary sources and you have none. I do not accept uncritically everything you say and as you want me to, just as I do not accept uncritically anything that is said to me.

And finally: You are quite deft with insults yourself.

One (non rhetorical) question in closing - these cultural Turks you refer to. How culturally Turkish do they feel themselves? I know you claim them, but how do they describe themselves?

Thorughout the Bosnian war, the Serbs referred to the Bosnian Moslems as Turks. That is how the Serbs see them.

Turk for me is any member of the coalition of ethnicties which are the modern, politically defined Turkish nation. These are the people who are my relatives and friends.

As a foriegner you will not realize the poly ethniocity of the people around you because we almost never talk to foreigners about our ethnic origins. This because they will use the opportunity for propaganda.

After all the insults you have formulated I have little desire to discuss much with you.

Ratko Mladic following the events that culminated in the Srebrenica Massacre: "...I dedicate this victory against the TURKS to the Serbian People..."
That is how the Bosnians were known and referred to by their adversaries.
I served with the OSCE in Kosovo (2001-2003) and have chanced first hand knowledge of the group of Slavic-speaking Muslims locally called Torbesh voluntarily identify themselves as (and behave like) Turks. Especially those who have moved/established residence in the historically Turkish-speaking city of Prizren have by choice become Turks, despite the fact that the Turkish Army (i.e. The Ottoman Empire) had to leave the region 90 years ago, hence no official (i.e. state-run) Turkifying (for want of a better word) agent being present, and the Torbesh had all to gain if they had confessed Serbian roots as the Belgrade henchmen so desired...

My question was how do they refer to themselves. We all know that in the Serbian extreme nationalist consciousness any Balkan Muslim is a Turk to be slaughtered and the war criminals had to demonise those they murdered in the only way they knew how.

I'm not sure what you mean "behave like"...

But thanks for the response. From what I have read Bosnian Muslims have struggled with defining their identity and especially since their slaughter in the 1990s.

I thought my explanation was quite straightforward but let me venture another re-explanation. There are several cultural attributes that shape one's behaviour either in public life, or in peer society or in private life. Some of those attributes are common to members of ethnic groups as distinct from other ethnicities in close proximity. Both the Torbesh People and, to a lesser extent their linguistic cousins and co-religionists to the south, the Gorani People behave in public and private domains in such a way that is indistinguishable from the ethnic Turks in the Prizren area.
As for the Bosnians' identity; the Bosnian Chief Mufti had once said to the visiting Turkish Premier Demirel in the late sixties during a state dinner given by none other than Marshall Tito, "You gave us a religion and hence freed us from oppression and persecution (in the 15th Century by both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches for belonging to the 'blasphemous' Bogomil sect, which incidentally was quite common among pre-Islamic Turks), but you have failed to provide us with a language that would have been our final emancipation". I think that symbolises their frustration of having been (again) relegated to second-class status...

"No your commentary does not annoy me, it amuses me" You are amusing us also, and entertaining with your fake propaganda and hate towards the Turks, I assume you are either Greek, Cypriot? I understand your pain, it must be hard to lose the war in 1974 when you tried to ethnic cleanse the whole island from the Turks but killing the Turks. Just like Greeks did in in CRETE in 1850s! there is not a single Turk left on that island, they were either killed or ethnic cleansed, just like French tried to do in Cicilia region in southern Turkey with the help of Armenians.
Europeans always were impreriialist, they always try to go to other countries and attack them. Even in this age, who is attacking who? Look around, Iraq, Libya, Afganistan, Yemen, Next will be IRAN, who is the aggresor in these? with all the propaganda, you think the victims are the attackers, which we all know is a lie. Yes these countries might have bad people or dictators, but it is none of your business to go and kill civilians by the thousands by bringing fake democracy. Look at Saudis, who is the biggest suppporters of them? UK, US, EUROPE. they help them stay in power so they can abuse and steal their oil. Who was helping and hugging Kaddafi in Libya just 3-4 years ago? SARKOZY! famously was hugging and kissing Kaddafi for money and oil, kissing this behind! he even let him put his tents in the middle of paris, what a clown! and shameless money hungry war criminal! You see you do all these dirty things then go around pretend to be for freedom and democracy, that is why wikileaks were so much upsetting, you can see the real acts, and deals West does behind the screens their real intentions, empire scams come up. really disgusting indeed, it is time for you my amusing friend to admit you are a war criminal and you need to stop attacking other countries. Enough of your mendling of other countries.
Killing civilians will not bring you friends, it will only create enemies in the long run, but of course state departments and army people do not care about that, they care about money and how their defense firms will make money, just like French and US, UK defense companies sell these billions of dollars of useless weapons to LIBYA, SAUDIS, and rest of garbage dictators. Get into real world my amusing friend GUGAN.

What are you talking about? are you working for the cia disinformation office? :)))
CIA is involved in every dirty trick in the world, they did things that are against US constitution! torture, killing of Americans, wire taps inside US! and helping dictators, for what? So US can help SAUDIS stay in power and Bush and CHeney can make money from them? Defense companies can make billions on the blood of Decent middle, poor class Americans boys! Why you never see Rich top elite US government people's sons and daugthers go to war? and killed? why? Bush's daughters never join the army? Or bush himself never served in the army? avoided the army? because he DOES NOT care about USA! He is out for himself, make money, live a nice live and send other people's kids to war. and play power games with these dictators. Who supports the dictator in Uzbeskistan? who supported Latin american dictators? who helped the coup in Chile? who helped the coup in Iran in 1952? who is the top weapons sellers in the world? Research these, find out where the money goes, then you will find the real war criminals. Your fake propaganda will not work here. you can babble as much as you can, No one will believe you. I end this by this.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

"US establishing an independent Kurdistan" are you joking? another disinformation by you, you need to read more. US helped Kurdish and armed them, created a no fly zone(by turkish help which was wrong!) Now we do have a defacto independent Kurdish country north of IRAQ. USA is using the old divide and rule tactic, simple fact. Funny thing is, Shias are in power now in Iraq and not listening to USA anymore. closer to Iran. So USA is upset, only way to change the game is to attack Syria.
In Iraq, by embargo, more than million people died, civilians.
For what? what was the reason for that war?? WMD, where are these famous WMD? are you still looking for it?? I would like to know, where? you cannot answer it my amusing funny friend gugan. show me one WMD and then i will admit my mistake. This war was criminal. you know it well deep down inside but will not admit it, you are in denial, I am sorry for that :) , that is why I am helping you realize that you can be helped :) . there is help to correct your mind set. your mind is brain washed by Propaganda of FOX tv and Bush neocon people. Cheers.

What I was asking was what are those behaviours "in public and private domains in such a way that is indistinguishable from the ethnic Turks in the Prizren area."? I understand that you think the Torbesh and the Gorani behave in the same way as the Prizren ethnic Turks, what I want to know is waht those behaviours are.

well I seem to be an ashkenazi jew, a cia agent, an ethnic Cypriot or Greek, make up your mind man...
Let us not forget that the people you mention also allow their arms companies to sell weapons to the Turkish army, that until recently the Turkish army was doing joint exercises with the Israeli defence forces, that Turkey gave logistical support to the US invasion of Iraq in the first gulf war and to the no fly zone.
I have already said in this thread and in many previous threads that the invasion of Iraq was illegal and immoral. I have also said on many occasions that US foreign policy has caused huge problems in Latin America, Africa and Asia in all of the places you mention and some more you don't.
I am glad that I have amused you but I am worried that you are so amused that your blood pressure is getting too high - you shoul dhave a glass of water and take a walk, maybe chat to some friends and tell them about the the strange beast you have uncovered on the Economist website.

I am terribly sorry that you feel insulted by what I have said.
You are wrong about the ethnicities and their discussion. In the yeras i have been coming to and living in Turkey I have seen subtle shifts in this. When I first visited in the 1970s people were terrified to say aloud that they were anything other than Turks. There was almost no dicsussion in public of Turkey's multiple ethnicities. But that changed in the 1990s and there is now a lot more discussion of this. I know quite a few whose family origins are in the Balkans, many Georgians and Laz, a couple of Armenians, some Circasians, a lot of Kurds, the odd Arab.. So don't lecture me about what I know or don't know about the people around me. Not all Turks are as xenophobic as you.

And the thing is I live here. You don't. You have no idea what young Turkish people think. You have no idea how terrified some of them are by political developments here.

I know the Serbs call all Balkan Muslims Turks, but as ever you fail to address the question.. what do they call themselves. Is it not a form of Imperialist colonialism to insist that the former subjects of an empire are part of that empire. By your logic Egyptians are Turks, Libyans are Turks, Palestinians are Turks. From my knowledge of Bosnia, the Bosnian Muslims are still trying to define their identity, in a region where identity and religion are comingled, and are most comfortable for now to describe themselves as Bosniac. If they are truly heirs to the Bogomil sect it seems appropriate that they define themselves in relation to their geography. It is not for me to tell them what they are.

haha, Are you kdding me? I am drinking coffee while talking to you :) and doing other multitask things :) reading your fantastic outlandish, brainwashed one sided stories make me relax and get my mind off :) I thank you for that.
Do not sell weapons to Greece, Turkey, dictators of Middle east especially Saudis (which helped the attack on USA by the way! so isnt that betrayal of US and American people? Bush and his friends betraying USA! and its constitution by supporting it)
While Greece is bankrupt, it is still byuing weapons from FRANCE and Germany! They are selling it, it is like a drug addic who cannot quit and them are the drug dealers, in this case to kill people, kill its own peoples, especially Saudis, Syria etc.

are you joking? :))) again :)) Bosnian etnicities who live in Turkey feel Turkish, they have intermarried and they are turkish! it is not for you preach us here who is a turk or not, who the heck are you? some foreign agent who lived in turkey for 2-3 years who thinks he knows turks, turkey and its people. Turks are not like Germans. Turks are a mix of different ethnicities who feel they are turks and they are really turks who lived in this land for centruries and 1000s together! Original Turks who came to Anatolia was maybe around 50000-100000, what happpened to the other milions who were living in Turkey then? disappeared? learn some real facts and preach us, you should preach your own history first then preach us here :)))
I am glad you accepted some CIA dirty tricks in Latin America.same things are happening currently in MI and it is against the constitition. they are treators to USA! simple.
Obama terrorizes innocent Pakistanis on an almost daily basis. The drone war he is waging in North Waziristan isn't "precise" or "surgical" as he would have Americans believe. It kills hundreds of innocents, including children. And for thousands of more innocents who live in the targeted communities, the drone war makes their lives into a nightmare worthy of dystopian novels. People are always afraid. Women cower in their homes. Children are kept out of school. The stress they endure gives them psychiatric disorders. Men are driven crazy by an inability to sleep as drones buzz overhead 24 hours a day, a deadly strike possible at any moment. At worst, this policy creates more terrorists than it kills; at best, America is ruining the lives of thousands of innocent people and killing hundreds of innocents for a small increase in safety from terrorists. It is a cowardly, immoral, and illegal policy, deliberately cloaked in opportunistic secrecy. And Democrats who believe that it is the most moral of all responsible policy alternatives are as misinformed and blinded by partisanship as any conservative ideologue.
read thishttp://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/why-i-refuse-to-vote...

You are very excited for someone who is so relaxed....
If you read carefully you will realise I was not talking about the very beautiful slavic origin Turks I meet every day but about the Bosnians who live now in Bosnia and what they call themselves... perhaps you should multitask less and focus more.

You speak with great authority on drones - I suppose you have seen and witnessed them yourself - or are you perhaps a victim of propaganda? Do you really believe everything you read in the newspaper?

I'm a bit shocked by your condescending attitude towards the Arabs. For someone of your intellectual caliber, it's totally unacceptable.
It's borderline racism, and a bit hypocritical, considering you're quick to accuse most Turks of Anti-Semitism.
Arabs, just like Turkish and Turkic peoples are not a monolith.
How can you expect all the Arab countries to somehow be accountable for the Palestinians' misfortunes?
Just because they speak the same language, or a similar dialects?
What does a Saudi have to do with the Palestinian dispossession?
And why should an Algerian be accountable for the Palestinians' fate?
It was the UN (with Western hegemony) which legalized the Palestinian dispossession, by creating Israel, on Palestinian land.
Let the UN, Israel, and their Western sponsors,
find a legal solution to the Palestinian problems and endless exile.
Why should the Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, or Saudis, have to accept Palestinian refugees?
Because some Argentinian or American Jews want to move to the Holy Land?
Why should Turkey be responsible for Xinkiang Uygurs?
Bulgarian Turks, Bosniaks, Azeris, Tatars?
Or even Palestinians?
These peoples have their homelands, and every right to live where their ancestors have lived for centuries and millennia.
As far as the Zionists, when they embarked on their grandiose project, they should have picked a more sparsely populated corner of the world.
It's only logical, that native peoples will fight back, against their invaders.
The Zionists knew what they were doing, and they ALSO should expect to suffer the consequences.
You only expect of the Palestinians and Arabs "to be reasonable, and logical". It's a bit of a double standard, on your part.
The Germans may owe the Jews something, but the entire world should not be held hostage by Zionist megalomania, and endless propaganda.

When they live in Bosnia, Bosniaks identify as Bosnians and Hercegovinians.
Even the ones that have Turkish-Anatolian ancestry.
Some famous Bosniak nationalists have Turkish ancestry ie Izetbegovic, Zulfikarpasic.

They love their homeland, and although they share a common culture with most Balkan and Anatolian Moslems, the Turkish nationalist movement of the Ottoman Empire bypassed them,
as they were already under Austro-Hungarian occupation.

When they move to Turkey, they're fully Turks,
whose roots happen to be in Bosnia.
Just like millions of other Turks, who happen to have Balkan roots.
ps. I was recently reading about the history of Turkish immigration in the US, and there was a story about a Bosnian immigrant from Chicago (or Detroit?), who dropped everything, and went to defend the Ottoman Empire during the First Balkan War.

Not many move permanently. But a few, come and go. Mostly students, business people, and some families that have homes in both countries.
I know of a few who are fluent in both languages, and are perfectly "chez soi" in both countries.

There is an increase in contacts, travel, educational and cultural exchanges, investments. Some Bosnians are buying real estate in Turkey as it's often cheaper than in Bosnia, which always perplexes them, as Turkey's economy is much stronger.

Some fled to Turkey as refugees, and remained there, others moved on, as the Turkish economy at the time wasn't in great shape.
Getting to Turkey as a refugee was quite difficult, as Serb-Montenegrin nationalists were often kidnapping Bosniak refugees in the border region, and murdering them in Serbia and Montengro, as they attempted to escape through Serbia and Montenegro.

Getting out through Croatia was usually easier, and safer, but then, once you're in Croatia it was easier to flee to EU (closer) or seek asylum overseas, than to attempt to get to Turkey, and risk being kidnapped by the Serbs.

Between 1918-1992 Turkophobia was a given, institutionalized, and cultural, economic contacts with Turkey were minimal.
Thus, after generations of minimal contacts with modern Turkey, or even Bosnians in Turkey, a lot of Bosnians were quite ignorant about anything regarding the country.

There was a sudden discontinuum between Bosnia and Anatolia-Thrace, and only now are they getting to know each other again.

Meanwhile, Bosnians went through Austro-Hungarian, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Fascism and WW2, Communism, and the war in 1992.

Turkey's been quite coddled since the 1920's, considering all the atrocities Balkan Moslems have collectively endured since the end of the Ottoman Empire. The latest being the Serbs' attempted ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.

I do know that whoever chose to move to Turkey would be given Turkish citizenship. That's alwasy been a given. And some families that fled across the Iron Curtain after 1945, vis Italy, Austria, chose to be re-settled in Turkey, instead of moving to Australia, US, Brazil, Canada, Sweden.

Also, after the communists got into power, there was a push by Serb-commuist nationalists to ethnically cleanse as many Turks, Bosniaks and Albanians from Serbia proper, and even Macedonia.
They didn't have as much power in Bosnia, as the Bosniaks there are very indigenous, old stock, and there is very little historical evidence of Bosnia being Serbia and Bosniaks from Bosnia collectively being of Serb origin. If anything, they usually feel slightly closer to ethnic Croats.

Thus, a lot of Moslems would formally declare themselves ethnic Turks, and get on a waiting list which would enable them to leave communist Yuguoslavia, when no one else could leave the country.
Ethnic Germans were ethnically cleansed right after 1945, but a slow ethnic cleansing of Moslems, Albanians and Turks, from Serbia and Macedonia continued indefinitely.

ps. what's really funny, and that I've noticed, is that even though Bosniaks had minimal contacts with the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey over the last 100+ years, how similar in outlook and lifestyle their peoples are. From the top down.
Even the atheists think alike, present similar arguments...he...he..he...
The one big difference, is that they never experienced the nationalist indoctrination which is a necessary part and parcel of modern Turkish citizenship and education.

Croats and especially Serbs, (including the Communits) made sure, that the "Turks" (synonym for Ottomans) were blamed for everything that's wrong with the Balkan peninsula.

Perhaps, your lower class Bosnian is a lot less orthodox in his approach to Islam, but except for the language difference, Aegean Turkey and Thrace could be classified as part of the Balkans, or vice versa. It's one ethno-cultural-genetic pool.

In fact, I'm close to a girl whose clan held very, very high positions in both the Ottoman and Kemalist regimes, and although they could have found refuge in the US, Australia, or EU, her father chose Turkey, ignoring its terrible economy at the time.

They've since returned to Bosnia, but are always travelling back and forth, as there are many daily flights from Sarajevo to Istanbul. More than to anywhere else.

My mom's 15 year-old rebelious cousin ran away with a rich Gypsy, an only son,
moved into a Romany neighbourhood,
learned the language, and gave birth to a few light-skinned kids, who can perfectly pass for "Gaji".
She essentially became a Gypsy, and lived as such until her death.
As far as I could see, this family could have chosen to become the local Romany bourgoisie, ie. educated, integrated, related to the majority, yet a bit different, "special".
As such, no one would have snubbed them, or discriminated them.
What happened with these relatives of mine?
Descendants of mom's cousin?
Well, they became your average under-educated Roms, who live itinerant lives, dispersed throughout Western Europe.
They aren't beggers, but they aren't working the assembly lines at Volkwagen, like the rest of European guest workers.
It's a subculture that's historically survived "on the edge" and thus needs that outsider status in order to survive as it is, as it knows itself.
They can also be extremely xenophobic, closed to outsiders.
Sometimes I wonder how they'd treat the Gaji, if they ruled the world?
I've known an old Gypsy woman who was constantly on the hunt for a Gypsy daughter-in-law, even though her only son was happily married to a Gaji, and had two teenage daughters with the woman.
She considered Whites to be a filthy race of people, and whenever I helped her with her dishes, she'd re-wash every single dish, after me. As far as most traditional Gypsies are concerned, we, Gaji, are dirty, filthy.
Gypsies aka Romany, are a bit like Jews
who seem to have needed a bit of anti-Semitism, exclusion, in order to survive.
I know it sounds cruel, but a friend's Jewish mother once said to me: "It's hard being Jewish here. They don't hate us enough."
She was an Auschwitz survivor who re-settled in South America.
I don't know if you can always blame the "host" societies' for all the minorities' woes. A lot of time, minorities accentuate their difference and intentionally create distinct lifestyles as a means of "group survival", thus avoiding assimilation.
After all, no one wants to "mix" with you, if you're starkly different.
Kind of reminds me of the appearance of Hassidim, and other similar Jewish groups in Eastern Europe, right at the point when Jews were becoming quite integrated and accepted throughout throughout the continent.
What I'm trying to say here, is that I'm not sure that Roma really know how much they want to be included in mainstream society. Inclusion means a high probability of assimilation.
Also, there is the issue of "value systems".
Traditionally, Gypsies live by very different social codes.
Our conservative, puritan, work hard-save your money-study hard system, makes no sense to a lot of Romani.
This inclusion you're talking about is a two-way dance. They've gotta find the right point where they can find a common ground with modern host societies, without fearing total assimilation.
When societies see that they're sharing more common values with the mainstream, they'll accept them more easily.
It's a real push-and-pull, between acceptance, integration and fear of total assimilation.
It's hard to tell how much this discrimination against the Romani is racial-cultural is a result of societies' lack of acceptance of their lifestyle, which often forces them to resort to some shady dealings in order to be able to survive.

This is interesting and intriguing because among the 15-20 distinct families I know of Bosnian origin (or at least who claim it) none has any known existing family connection, none has visited or has to my knowledge expressed any interest in visiting (and this is something I have discussed with several of them. In th ecourse of the Bosnian war none had any additional anger associated with this place or that being their place of origin. It may reflect where I live and the length of their establishment in Turkey but it is very different to your experience and knowledge. I have doubts about your claim regarding the number of flights - With THY alone London has at least seven daily and Franfurt at least 5 daily.

Again thanks for the the reflection.
However:It was not me who talked about inclusion - a previous commenter asked for proof od discrimination and I picked up one such, a submission by a Roma group to the European Commission and quoted from it.
Personally I am quite happy to let every ethnic group have its sepaarte existence, as long as each obeys the law of whatever land they live in and does not regard itself as above the law.

I have no strong views on assimilation - forced assimilation has generally failed with ethnic division re-emerging as soon as teh pressure is taken off. RTE has of course made clear (in a specch in Cologne I think) that assimilation is a crime against humanity and that Turks in Germany should not allow themselves to be forced to learn German or adopt German ways. Integration is far more important and too often politically correct European Governments have provided too many services supposedly to assist in integration while avoiding assimilation and ultimately simply create immigrant ghettoes by yielding to misplaced notions of cultural sensitivity and
cultural exceptionalism. Ultimately this is always an excuse for discrimination. So I am sorry but when you talk of groups needing an outsider status to survive, what ypu are effectively saying is institutionalised racism is acceptable. When you say Gypsies live by different social codes, what you are saying is that all social codes must be respected even if they involve killing daughters in utero because they are a burden on the family or burying 15 year old girls alive under the henhouse because they smiled at a boy walking down the street. And I am sorry I cannot accept that a social code which includes an acceptability of that kind of behaviour is tolerable, particularly when such codes are used to conceal murder, theft, drug dealing, human trafficking etc etc.