Tuesday, 27 May 2014

This post is going to come off shady as f**k but bear with me- it's genuinely not my intent.

Now despite knowing Mariah Carey is a songwriter (honestly, anyone who doesn't know this by now clearly hasn't been paying attention!), I did wonder if recently she had gone down the lazy route of securing songwriting credits by only changing a few words on a submitted track. These thoughts first darkened my thoughts when listening to album Memoirs Of An Imperfect Angel. With an obvious change in writing style, I couldnt help but question how much involvement she had in the formulation of the lyrics. Well shame on me for doubting the Queen!

YouTube has revealed, via demos from that very LP, just how much the diva adds and personalises the bare bones she is presented with. Take the glorious ballad H.A.T.E U. All that was kept from that demo was the chorus- everything else got a rewrite.

Betcha Gon' Know (The Prologue) is a little more suspect- if the demo is to be believed. Here it sounds like Mariah just changed the last part of the song, where she tells us how 'real' the situation really is by using pop culture references. However with the song mentioning Mariah's friends Jasmine and Rae Rae, I do wonder if this demo was recorded after they'd already written the first draft of the song, as Wiki states it was recorded in more than one location. Even if this didn't happen, at least we can hear a change to the words.

H.A.T.E U

Betcha Gon' Know (The Prologue),

Now let's take a look at Beyoncé and how she earns her writing credit. First we have Halo. No lyrical change here, yet the diva is credited. This demo was also one sent to other singers, so there's no way Bey could have had a role in its creation, yet the credit is there.

Next up is 1+1. Once again no change lyrically between the demo and the version Beyoncé recorded (bar the odd pronunciation of "algebra"). To those who say the vocal arrangement is enough to earn the singer a credit, I say "nein!" If no lyrics have been changed, no credit should be given! Now, earning a production credit for vocal arrangement would be a different story, and would definitely be more agreeable to me.

Finally we have the controversial Irreplaceable which Beyoncé claimed she co-wrote, but actual writer Ne-Yo publicly quashed that by saying he wrote the song, alone. Saying that, she's still credited as a writer, along with five other people, so Lord knows how Ne-Yo can claim he wrote it alone.

Halo

1+1

Irreplaceable

So what do you guys think of this practice of nabbing writing credits (and royalties) without contributing to the lyrics: is it fair, or shady?

Some would argue that the exposure a writer gains from being featured on a big artist's album is a worthwhile trade-off for a dent to their publishing royalties. Just take a look at Sia. This is one Diva who is a hell of a lot richer, and well known, because of her writing for other, bigger stars.

Counter to this, there are artists like Rihanna and Britney Spears that don't ask for credit, despite being big sellers with enough clout to do so. It's obviously an issue writers are aware of. Check out what Heather Bright, someone this actually affects, had to add to the debate:

I would just like to address one thing! The media is talking trash about how Britney didn’t write any of the songs on her album … HELLO! Wake up everybody! NONE OF THESE ARTISTS WRITE THEIR OWN SONGS!!!!!! (there are a few exceptions … lady gaga, will.i.am/BEP, chris brown is starting to write a lot of his own stuff … ummmm … and now I’m running out of artists). Anyway … here’s my thing … and I feel VERY passionate about this issue. Britney could have come to me, like all these other A-list artists, and said …

Hey, you wanna be on my album? I’m gonna need writing credit for that song AND part of your publishing even though I didn’t write anything! And then I’m gonna go on tour and gross $150 million in ticket sales and not give you any of that, even though I’m performing your song!”

I could rattle off a laundry list of artists who I’ve had that conversation with! And I’m on the other end like … “Oh okay … so you wanna rape me, but just with the tip?!” *Prince side eye* Britney’s one of the few artists I’ve worked with who didn’t try to take something that wasn’t hers. In my experience, from a business standpoint, her entire team is nothing less than a bonafide class act!

231 comments:

No! Taking credits for something you didn't take the time and effort to write or create is just as worse, if not more than plagiarism. There's a difference between reworking and recreating a song and taking credits for the final product but in no way, shape or form should artists who lack the knack for writing a song should take the credit! The relevence of songwriters in the business is scary. Few names bear the title, "Lyricist" these days and it's something the industry needs to change.

Exploitation is such a dirty word, isn't it? Why not call it "pay to play" or even better why not just acknowledge it for what it really is: a "tip" The singer is tipping the writer for the song and some people are big tippers and other people are little tippers, such as Kristin Gore. Who is zooming who here? Isn't it true that without the singer the songwriter would be nothing? If it weren't for Taylor Swift, Liz Rose would still be selling vacuums at Sears (well, ok. given how Sears is doing economically maybe not there but I'm sure she'd still be in retail, maybe Starbucks.) Liz Rose has a Grammy now and thanks to who? Taylor that's who. Let's take another example--Joy Williams. Where would she be without the John Paul White? She has four Grammys and it's all thanks to HIM. She says they met at a songwriter camp and that they both deserve equal credit but come on peeps, how likely is that? I am sure it makes a great story--two songwriters met at bandcamp, the sparks fly, and the rest is history but this aint no Hollywood, this aint no LA, this is Nashville, TEN-O-SEE and things like that just don't happen in Hillbillyville. Before she met him she was shilling Christian slop on gospel radio and cranking out jingles for Disney just to make a few coins. If John Paul White hadn't been Johnny Deps brother all her songwriter abilities would have gone to the crapola.

So if we are going to use big ole fancy words like exploitation it's the songwriters who are exploiting the singers. The singers have the beauty, the voice, and the dance moves while the songwriter--let's be honest--could not get a date for the crocodile prom. Songwriters are mostly the basement dweller types who come to message boards, insist that the only thing that makes a good voice is good technique, opine without evidence, and generally make a big mess of the profession. Envy. That's what I think. I think its envy that leads the songwriter to cry "EXPLOITATION'. Well, you know, what why don't you go sing your own goddam songs mister and ms songwriter. You know what's going happen? You'll sound just like all the other crappy artists that write their own songs: Bob Dylan, Of Monsters and Men, Joni Mitchell, Carole King. Do you really want to be associated with THAT crowd? You don't and you know you don't. What you really want--if you were honest--is the fame and the glory and the red carpet and the Grammy award and you know that the only way that is EVER going to happen is to hitch your ride to the star of a famous person, who can shake their ass and strip for the crowd while soaring through the air on construction equipment.

Exploitation? Cry me a river. It is a TIP just the same way the maid and the doorman get tipped, and every songwriter should be damn lucky to get one.

And I meant what I said; I think I'm just giving cursory overviews. I didn't take it as a slur. I know you like to argue and are good at it, so I don't want to give you some B- grade arguments.

What's more disconcerting is that I thought he had NPD for awhile. My mother acts in similar fashions. In fact, right now, she's trying to normalize all of her rediculously manipulative behavior. She wouldn't visit me in hospitals just because her weave wasn't on. She didn't leave a burning building while pregnant with me because her makup wasn't on.

And she never admits wrong....

It's odd because I've been doing research on this disorder for awhile. I had a very strong hunch that it could be NPD (due to correlates with my own family), but I am not a Psy D. What's also interesting is that people that grow up with NPD'ers can "forfeit" their positions for the NPD. hmm. I was hoping it was a joke....

White isn't Depp's brother lol. Anyway, I agree with most of your argument, before it became a horrible mess in the end. If you think that association is better than actually having control as an artist, then that's misguided opinion, methinks. Many don't make it because they lack the adequate 'image', much like how many directors used to be actors.

Thanks for the compliment.I don't think I am the one owed any apologies though. It was Alaneasable's words which were misunderstood.

Though I do feel you also misunderstand mine. Though I initially tried to clarify by highlighting the word "if" through use of capitals.I most certainly do not agree with Abramovic's views ( I am presuming you meant the "performance artist"?)

I do hold technical ability as important btw. Because it broadens the range of expression. But like I said, that is because I see it as a tool. If the artist can express what he/she wants to express with a limited technical skill, that seems fine to me too.A lot of genres of singing actually do not require for instance a wide range but non technical attributes all the more.On the other hand, I enjoy Bluegrass because one cannot make it in that genre without serious instrumental technical chops.

But I do believe art is about expression of emotion. Craftsmanship is about expression of technical skill. And each has it's place and each has it's priorities. I happen to not hold the same priorities in Art as you and primo do.I think it is an opinion which can be discussed, challenged and argued but it doesn't do to dismiss it ,or the holder of a different priority, as "trash" etc etc etc

I hate it! Wrecking Ball won Best Lyrics for iHeart Radio Music Awards and Miley Cyrus got the award. WHY?! She's not even credited at all for Wrecking Ball. They have to feel embarrassed when they get these awards.

I like to argue. I also think it is important to challenge ideas. I also enjoy it when someone in argument forces me to really focus and be on my toes.It sharpens the mind and crystallizes ideas and views as well as the way one expresses those

ADD: I know many people feel argument is about convincing the other to "your" side. But I do not.I am therefor perfectly fine, once each party is satisfied the other truly understood their view, to agree to disagree. :-)

Yes, once you have experienced first hand someone with the disorder, you become pretty good at recognizing it quite quickly.Now, in real life, if I see one coming I run...fast!It's very hard to deal with. Even more so when it's a close and loved relative. Almost impossible to guard yourself from the hurt their behavior brings in that case.You have my sincerest sympathy.It's an interesting disorder because it can be argued that todays society actually greatly favors it. Yet, it is also one not really "gotten" if you haven't experienced it up close.Many people confuse it with being selfish or selfcentered.

I also think they should distinguish between songwriters and editors just as they do with books. Book editors can make huge edits but they aren't listed as a the author. Idk if NeYo wrote the song or not, but I can see a scenario where he could be telling the truth, ie. he wrote the song and then people edited it. If that the case, they really should not be listed in the same degree as NeYo.

Well, as I said, I deal with people who never admit wrong on a regular basis, so it's something I aspire not to do. I'll have a re-read when things are clearer. I'm actually in the midst of dealing with a very possibly NPD individual and am kind of shocked at this lipton you just threw in my face (NPD stuff)

And you're right about sharpening the mind. Just right now mine is like JHFSJFHLKHFJH. If you want, come to the chat sometime else! We have some friendly debates there.

It explains a lot. From experience, criticism and sharing of feelings or thoughts get minimized by NPD people. And unlike the unaffected, they can be wrong and feel just fine without admitting it.

I'm never sees to amaze me in your logic or lack there off about singing. particularly regarding Christina Aguilera's vocal ability. You must be another pathetic Beyhive member. Dilusional in all. Christina can sing circles around Bey. Beyoncé wuld not even be heard if she was singing on the same stage with Christina. She is called "The Voice of Our Generation" for a reason. Her voice is supported throughout ALL 4 OCTIVES. Something Beyonce never has and never will have.

I actually idealized it myself. I used to tell everyone, "OMG guys like I'm a mathematician" as if it mattered. I make it a point to never list resumes now... I was trying to have that "self-esteem".

Trust me, it's NOT like what you see on TV with women that just look in the mirror.

She's never had a relationship with anyone aside from a friend who took care of her children for her. All her other ones resulted in her being targeted for violence (even the most docile of people)

And to this day, she will blame it on the other party. She can't be alone or she has mini psychological breaks ("I talk to you when you're not here for longer than 2 weeks"). They are truly upset people at the core but cannot rationalize why.

It goes way beyond the surface of conceit. I'm in 20k of debt just trying to "repay her" because "you're never done owing your mother; I gave up all my relationships for you!". I gave up scholarships to big name Unis etc; I finished my math degree in 2.5 years but was still doing her and my sister's writing...

And you believe what they say because society says family is family, and they "train" you early on to be easily manipulated. Some get help, but unfortunately, NPD is one of the cluster B disorders that don't seek help because doing so will ruin the ideal self. The ideal self is the one they project.

I won't make this about me, but I just wanted to give people an idea of how destructive it is, even for the person suffering. I just got off the phone with the guy who raised us. What does he get for it? He's in a shelter for the homeless. My mom still asks him for money (from his SSI check), and he still gives it to her.......if any sympathy need be had it's for him. He has no relation to us at all...

Sorry for making this a diary; I just am shocked at how I just "knew".

I can't really say with op. RN, I'm in the process of trying to sever a relationship with one who is not ambiguous. For the sake of remaining objective, I will post the DSM traits here (5 are needed for a disorder):(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

This can include vocal talent, argument ability, intelligence, looks, or all or in some combo.

but be careful labeling people with "seeming traits" A lot of people love their singing voices and like to argue. NPD is really something you have to have a long, long history of noting. If arguments were it, it'd be half the internet. You think this is bad? go to a philosophy forum ha. Anyway, back to music before DD gets annoyed tbh.

I always thought a backing track for singers was the album or pre recorded vocals over a live performance to make up for a singers live voice. I heard some people after watching this performance said they heard "two" voices when she sang this.

If that op is referring to me, no actually. I do not suffer from that disorder. And that is 'official" LOLPlenty of mental issues but nope. No personality disorders.As should be clear from the DSM traits.

I am not going to defend myself more than state the basic fact here but Jules, you need to grow up and stop posting your personal hate comments disguised ever so thinly as "being rational" comments.

The reason I stated this assessment of primo is not some willy nilly hatred inspired "diagnoses" intended as insult. And as I mentioned, it is something he himself also stated to have been his diagnoses by professionals rather than say people who hate him. Your "diagnoses" and assessments of me however clearly are.I suggest, if you are this deeply bothered by my posts, either deal with your own inner demon or stop reading them.

I can assure you, I am not. I am however childish enough to enjoy needling people who incorrectly label my intentions or motivations by exaggerating what they think they are seeing and feel entitles them to post personal insults. I prefer that over simply throw some similar name calling back.

Don't forget it takes five or more traits to likely have the disorder but "healthy" people all will comply with at least two or three traits of each disorder as well.The latter is something to be noted I feel.

What you said made absolutely no sense and is a complete miss usage of the word "vocalist". What makes a vocalist is SKILL not conveying a MESSAGE.

Stop misappropriating musical terminology for your own agenda.

If Beyonce is never credited for her vocal prowess, then it wouldn't matter. There are dozens of skilled, talented singers who will never get the recognition they deserve. It doesn't make them inferior, just criminally overlooked.

There are a lot of 4-chord songwriters that have made pop music incredibly boring. It's not to say that you can't have a great 4-chord pop song, but there's a glaringly obvious formula that they all adhere to that is downright depressing. That aside, I genuinely believe that Mariah has a heavy creative hand in her material. I feel her personality in a lot of her songs. As for Beyonce -- Meh, I think she's after the writing credits for the royalties for the most part. I do hear when her personality is injected on specific songs. I actually feel like she contributed the most she's ever done on her latest album. It feels more personal.

I don't give a single shit what you "like", all I care about is the facts. The facts stand that Christina screams like a donkey having a heart attack in order to reach notes that are truly not very challenging. And no. You can't distinguish between objective or subjective because you assume your opinion to be representative of the truth. It is YOUR truth, but it is not THE truth. "Hating" on me won't heal Christina's decayed voice :)

Please dismiss that person, she doesn't know what she is talking about. I have not been diagnosed as a narcissist. I consider myself a narcissist, but i have never been diagnosed as such. I have been diagnosed in the spectrum of sociopathy though, but in that spectrum I've been diagnosed as "high functioning".

Narcissist personality disorder falls under the header "sociopath".The rating 'high functioning" refers to in how much or rather how little your disorder influences your functioning in society.Narcissists generally function on "high functioning level" in our western society.And get this!!! It is a a highly subjective rating! LOL

Please, disregard the obsessed person. I have not been diagnosed as a narcissist. I consider myself narcissistic or perhaps simply quite vain (I even joke with friends, who call me "Evil Queen", like Queen Ravenna), that coming from the fact that I recognize good looks to be a kind of advantage in life. I am, however, a high functioning sociopath. Meaning I lack empathy. That doesn't meant I enjoy hurting people, it simply means my feelings are my own. If I love it is not because I can't see their flaws, but instead I see their flaw clearly and I still love them. If anything, the maladaptive side of lacking empathy is that weakness disgusts me and I admire courage and self-reliance. Again, that doesn't mean I don't help people who are less fortunate. It means that, for example, if someone commits suicide instead of mourning them I think of them as weak because they rejected the gift of life (unless they were terminally ill and in pain). Actually, many people in high stress positions such as CEO's, politicians and even presidents are believed to be within the sociopathic spectrum. That's how they can succeed in them while others crumble.

This is the last time I will ask you politely. Please don't talk to me, don't talk about me, ignore me completely. I am not interested in having conversations with you or anything that has anything to do with you. If you cannot stick to music, I am not interested. If anyone is a narcissist here it is you, requesting people to call you "God" amongst other disturbing behavior that go far beyond me being aggressive and "mean". Have some self respect and don't engage with people who simply don't desire to engage with you. If this were the "Real world" you would be getting a restraining order.

Dear, I was in conversation with TheItFactor actually.I understand why you are upset but you are not doing yourself any favors here by these responses. You just admitted you consider yourself "narcissistic" and admit you have been diagnosed with a general term under which that particular personality disorder falls.So why argue the facts?

As for your "request"..this is an open forum. If you don't want to read my comments, you are free to not do so. If you do not want to respond to me, you are free to not do so.What I talk about or respond to however, that does not lie withing the scope of your decision making.

And you just added no 5 "5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations "

I am not sure under which no it falls, the way you insist on making a fool of yourself by using such an obvious joke as an "argument".But it is probably all of them, this inability to understand that it was a joke and in what sense it was a joke. It is definitely no 7 why you didn't understand what point I was making with that joke at the time though.

And that believe that "if this was the real world" I would be getting a "restraining order"..that again is a very clear demo of no"s 1 and 2.

So, what are you going to do Primo? Ask me impolitely to not say anything to anybody on this blog which may tempt you to engage with me??? Wonder how that looks if you consider your responses thus far "polite"?

And if you want there to be even a remote chance of my complying with your "request" dude, you better first stop posting outright lies and trashing me to others here.Then maybe I will consider your "request"

Oh you can pray about me to your Unicorn to your hearts delight. Could not think of a more harmless way for you to waste your time on. But maybe you ought to apply one of your judicial edits at this point? Fact that you keep me in your prayers would indicate you are more obsessed with me than I am with you. Just saying hon! :-)

Okay. I am not a psy D. This I stated already. To be DX'ed with the disorder is different than having traits. You can have 2 traits and not be a clinical case. Sociopathy, from my reading, more correlates to antisocial PD, which at the core has a lack of empathy.

I don't know either of you to make an accurate DX nor do I posess the qualifications to do so., which is why I left it at listing the traits. Again, you need 5/9.

I don't know what tests you guys are taking or who is administering them. Cluster B disorders (the dramatic PDs) are normally hard to treat and people who have them normally do not report much dysfunction (perhaps with the exclusion of borderlines).

These are not kind labels, and a good deal of them will get you on the "no" list for many psychologists. However, this has turned into a mess. Let's get back to the music before the site owner bans us all.

I am not sure why you keep suggesting DD's possible responses but l think generally your expectations are not in line with DD's "moderating" during the time I have been on this blog.

As for functioning ratings..."

91 - 100 No symptoms. Superior functioning in a wide range of activities, life's problems never seem to get out of hand, is sought out by others because of his or her many positive qualities.

81 - 90 Absent or minimal symptoms (e.g., mild anxiety before an exam), good functioning in all areas, interested and involved in a wide range of activities, socially effective, generally satisfied with life, no more than everyday problems or concerns.

71 - 80 If symptoms are present, they are transient and expectable reactions to psychosocial stressors (e.g., difficulty concentrating after family argument); no more than slight impairment in social, occupational, or school functioning (e.g., temporarily falling behind in schoolwork).

61 - 70 Some mild symptoms (e.g., depressed mood and mild insomnia) or some difficulty in social, occupational, or school functioning (e.g., occasional truancy, or theft within the household), but generally functioning pretty well, has some meaningful interpersonal relationships.

31 - 40 Some impairment in reality testing or communication (e.g., speech is at times illogical, obscure, or irrelevant) or major impairment in several areas, such as work or school, family relations, judgment, thinking, or mood (e.g., depressed adult avoids friends, neglects family, and is unable to work; child frequently beats up younger children, is defiant at home, and is failing at school).

21 - 30 Behavior is considerably influenced by delusions or hallucinations or serious impairment, in communication or judgment (e.g., sometimes incoherent, acts grossly inappropriately, suicidal preoccupation) or inability to function in almost all areas (e.g., stays in bed all day, no job, home, or friends)

I thought Mariah and Beyonce were composers not just lyrically, I thought songwriters included melody writing and if Beyonce changed and wrote melodies for these songs, she's still a songwriter even if not a lyricist herself. I thought they literally came up with melodies and lyrics.. Regardless that's a bit part of this industry in the USA anyway and it happens... Idk.... I'm just saying I didnt know bout this

Im going to be a bit out of topic but not so much. SInce DD brought the demo tapes, i would just like to know whether you guys think this is really Mariah singing a last or Christina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qANWQ6dwBtQ

I compared it to her another demo tape that was released after 3 years of her alleged demo. I hear huge similarities. But im still not sure since the "at last" demo just lasts for few secondshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3sbf0X7Liw

I just think that the guy has asked us on the side to be less contentious. Everytime we post, we are using his bandwidth. I'm not even that worried about being banned because IP changes (or simply not caring) is easy. But I don't like being disrespectful to the owner.

This is the Global Assessment Functioning. I'm not too sure how it plays into Cluster Bs. I think a lot of NPD people live pretty "sucessful" lives. The most "damaging " cluster Bs tend to be Borderline and Antisocials. But all Cluster Bs tend to be on "blacklist."

I recently heard "Dangerously in Love" and "Irreplacable" on the radio, so I wouldn't say that. Different radio stations will play different tunes. I don't think I've heard a Christina song that isn't "Beautiful" in about 3 years, but that doesn't mean she isn't played. So I think it's really the stations you listen to (and not to mention, the times).

It will NEVER be okay to take someone else's material as your own. Anyways, while I always knew that Mariah was a decent songwriter herself, it is probably because of her talent as a singer that has caused the overshadowing of her songwriting. I am also guilty of this because I would credit her more of a singer/vocalist more than her as a singer-songwriter.

The testing relating to personality I did was done at 26 and the only thing outside of the "healthy" norm was that I identify more strongly with men than the average woman does.Which seemed to me rather logical if you are a lesbian in a straight world and also grew up with two males as most important figures from 10 years on up.

I did one, too. I came up Schizotypal/Schizoid, but I think that's because of my science bent. I'm still able to socialize etc, but I need more time to recoup from people. I come up INFJ on most "MBTI" tests, but those are B.S. a lot of the times as well. Introvert definitely. The rest ? dunno.

Bey has always been a great performer/singer but something that bothers me about her is she tries to be "too authentic" i always see videos from her concerts where she starts off a song by saying "I wrote this song blah blah blah" we all know bey doesn't create these radio tunes and this post proves it

mariah has always written or contributed to the songs chosen for her album which really amazes me - not only does she have impeccable technique and range but also good songwriting skills

bey should really stop trying to steal credit from these songwriters - being exposed like this is embarrasing especially when the girl claims to write these songs by herself.

ALSO i guess its just how the business works which is sad because it shows how shady the business is bey should just give up writing credits because its obvious she contributes little to none on the songsand no changing the gender orientation of Irreplaceable doesn't mean you wrote the songi think Ne-yo did write a majority of the song and beyonce just brought in 5 other writers to tweak it to make it fit her persona and singing style

i know gaga works in the opposite way - she writes all the material or co-writes it and brings in people to fix or tweak the lyrics to make it perfect and sometimes melodies are changed which is why she gives credit to these other songwriters

I do hate that Beyoncé is ripping off these songwriters and putting her name on their work. It shouldn't be like that, but a lot of these would accept it to get the recognition from being on an album of a singer of beyonce's caliber.

Btw, Mariah changed up some of the lyrics of chorus of Betcha Gon Know, changed the bridge, added the little "betcha gon knowwwwww" after the chorus and the "to be continued" part. It should suffice for a writing credit.

Beyoncé on the other hand changed "what's up with me?" to "what's up with B?" on resentment (check the previous versions by Jazmine Sullivan and victoria beckham) and still snatched a writing credit.

I hear mezzo soprano for both. Jade's probably a lyric mezzo, definitely not dramatic. Not sure about Perrie though. Her voice is always fluctuating. I have to admit , sometimes she sounds soprano but I'm guessing she'll eventually become mezzo.

All of what you said is true and fundamentally, in my opinion, it comes down to the integrity of the artist as an individual. Although I admire Beyonce as vocalist & performer, her songwriting [artistic] credibility has been highly questioned since circa. Destiny's Child - 2000/2001 when she claimed to have "written" 'Survivor & Bootylicious'.

On one hand you have Beyoncé who changes one word in the song title, sings the song with a different melody to the demo and yet claims she wrote the song. On the other hand you have artists who arrange their own vocals from scratch, change the melody, perhaps a word here or there and yet do NOT get a song-writing credit because they themselves did not contribute to writing the actual song. For example: Whitney Houston contributed to the makings of many songs on her 'Whitney', 'I'm Your Baby Tonight' & 'My Love Is Your Love' albums, according to Clive Davis & Babyface, yet she never claimed songwriting credits. Rodney Jerkins aka. "Darkchild" said that she actually wrote the intermediate to 'It's Not Right But It's Okay' and helped alter certain chord/vocal arrangements throughout but, because she never wrote the song as a whole, she refused acknowledgment.

It all comes down to honesty and how much respect you have for the craft of others. Regardless of what is deemed as an industry standard, what Beyoncé and many other Mainstream- artists have done on numerous occasions and continues to do is dishonest and disingenuous to those who actually wrote the songs.

There is no smoke without fire. Many of these "artists" have made a name for themselves for taking credit for other people's work and in some cases using it without referencing it.

Mariah Carey has never been sued for "stealing" songwriting credits. Notwithstanding, her overuse of sampling, in some cases, has put into question in the past but not infinitely so as the American music industry in particular, post- 1975, has been built on loops & samples [ever since electronic synthesizers were first discovered] but that is a different context altogether.

The infamous lawsuit she received in 1994 & 1996 from the apparent 'original' writer of her song "Hero" has been defused on multiple occasions based on the fact that Mariah actually noted ideas she had to the song as early as 1992.

Mariah keeps notes of all the lyrical/melody concepts she has ever created; no songwriter who has worked with her has ever dismissed her songwriting ability.

In some ways I agree. I'd argue that Mariah has digressed as a lyricist, the past decade, so to speak. Her writings on her 'Mariah Carey, Emotions & Music Box' albums, when she was 18 - 23 years old - easily surpass the writings on her new album at 44 though this may be subjective.

However, I believe that for the style of music in which Mariah makes, her songwriting ability is impressive and her compositions are what solidify that for me. She has formulated some of the most outstanding melodies in Mainstream- Contemporary R&B music, especially in her early-to-late- 90's output. Yes, she isn't a songwriter to the degree of 'Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Bob Marley, Carole King or Carly Simon' but she [mostly] writes mature love/heartbreak songs for the masses to enjoy/contemplate over and she writes them well..

Look I can totally see Rihanna Rollin up a blunt and swinging on a chair behind the recording booth...just sittin there while the producers do all the work (apparently she's an "executive producer" on her albums) but as with Mariah she's a perfectionist so I would be honoured if I had to go in song writing session but scared AT the same time you can see a lot of personality in her songs!! I love bey but there's an interview where she talked about bringing in songwriters to the Hamptons (its on her vevo) I feel she's does input but its very little

I don't think I have enough evidence to claim anything, really. Anyone who takes what I say, or what most people anonymously say on the webs, seriously and without a grain of salt are gullible beyond belief. And I didn't say you were, I used a simile. Besides, the notion of intellect isn't really about intelligence, but rather the cognitive abilities to discern what's real and not, what's logical or otherwise. Pretty relevant to the nature of this whole thread, actually.

well i think it would have been awkward for the people there if the songwriter received the actual award. People(teenagers/brats) there be like http://thoughtcatalog.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/22-accidentally-spilled-drink.gif?w=584

I don't get it either… And there are so many lyrically and musically basic songs out there that have a whole team of writers "contributing" to it and you just think "what? how? why?" A prime Beyonce example would be Run The World - not the most groundbreaking of songs in terms of lyrics or music but SIX writers and FOUR producers are credited on it. If the artist didn't contribute to the lyrics or the score at all by adding or changing anything (and no, a few words or notes here and there or even a slight change in melody or a key change shouldn't count), then no they should definitely not get any credit. Of course, it is sometimes hard to tell from our perspective who contributed to what part of a song but there are a vast number of suspicious songs out there that make you wonder. I personally commend artists who write or co-write practically all of their own material - and by co-write I mean with less than 3 other people.

Also, slightly off the main topic but am I correct in thinking Mariah can play the piano?

Yes, let's hope they are. And let's hope some of them realize that happens to be how it works but will do the right thing outside of the public eye?I would be very curious for instance to know, seeing as I like Miley AND that song, whether she passed that award on to the actual writers and with what kind of words and show of respect or not, she did.I think that would be very telling.I would like to think, Miley coming from Nashville people, she would do the right thing and show the right respect.It is pretty standard in Country scene for singers to state the name of the person who wrote the song before they start singing (much like it is also custom for Country singers to acknowledge/thank the band when they are done singing. Something ,I noticed, also rarely done in pop music)

You haven't? I think he is simply a troll trying to entice as many different people as he possibly can in one comment, into responding.It seems he foolishly thinks that will result in his comment "jumping to the top".

I love beyonce's vocal prowess. She's no doubt technically better and sounds better live whilst I have yet to hear a decent live version of I turn to you. However.... i just love christina's songs more... nevermind if she can't sing it live, I wouldn't expect, nor would I want, her to anyway.

I, too, believe that Beyonce' does try to hard to pronounce her "authenticity" thus it comes across as extremely mendacious at times.

In my opinion, she is the only current "Mainstream act" whose musical output is the least engaging and I say that as a fan who is moreso an admirer of her voice & performance abilities specifically. Also, it has nothing to do with the fact that she's an Urban- R&B/Soul artist because Keyshia Cole wins in that respect and though generic, especially as of late, I believe the masses would agree that Rihanna's discography is far more interesting.

However, to an extent, there is nothing wrong with that: Tina Turner is moreso known for her voice & performance abilities rather than her "songs" and the same goes for Prince who is moreso known for his virtuoso musicianship/instrumental skills & stage persona than his "songs" though both have never, truly, been completely commercial.

Fun Mariah fact: At the WMAs last night Mariah opened the show with her new song Meteorite which is you listen closely, she's insulting the rest of her competition.

It begins with her saying "Andy Warhol said in the future everybody will be famous, no everybody will be famous for 15 minutes"

Then in the verses she sings:

"Cause you've got the night, to light up the skyMeteorite, in front of every eyeA shooting starYour fame is the flameThey watch you burn up, turn up, turnt up all the way"

She is opening up the world music awards with a song that insults all of her competition because they probably wont have a career that matches her longevity (They got nothing on her christmas songs that will play every year). LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. She's also getting the Icon award there to add insult to injury and was responsible for delaying the entire show for 4 hours because she wasn't read apparently.

She is the Supreme Diva, I don't think anyone comes close to her in that regard. I probably should be mad at her, but it's just to funny LOL.

Didn't Beyoncé also change one word in If I Were A Boy and credited herself as the first writer? The original writer kicked off about it, as her songwriting partner sold the song to Beyoncé without asking.

I believe that there is a certain stigma that comes along with being an entertainer. When most people think of artists who 'entertain,' they think of the Britneys and Madonnas whose shows are more about the dancing and theatrics than the singing; and then you have the Katy Perrys and the Rhiannas who seem to rely on gimmicks to cover up for a lack of singing ability. Due to these associations, anytime an artist is branded as an entertainer, vocal talent is automatically overlooked.

The general public tends to think that less props, customers, dancers, or effects immediately correlates with greater singing ability. I am sure a great deal of people assume that Adele is a better singer than Beyoncé simply because she just 'stands there and sings.' Whenever you watch those singing talent shows, it is always the Adele songs that are placed as part of the 'do not cover because you will never compare to the original artist' category more so than the Beyoncé songs. This is because Beyoncé is known mostly for being an entertainer, which is why the vocal difficulty of some of her work gets undermined. Plus, look at Mojo's list of top ten female vocalists. Both Adele and Christina are listed, but Beyoncé does not even get an honorable mention.

Her net worth is of over/around 500million, she has a song (the only one so far) that had spent 16 weeks atop the Billboard Hot 100, the only artist to have 18 #1 singles, sold over 220million records worldwide and is one of the best-selling female artists of all-time.. I'm sorry; what do you have again? http://24.media.tumblr.com/83ae4bd0c45c14bedac258a313a9fd15/tumblr_mvvrpfE4zV1qd8zg3o1_r1_500.gif

lolok. i didn't know that what's considered to be cum laude in most uni standards--oxford and cambrige--is average to you. i also didn't know that what's considered to be a statistical average--mathematically a fact--doesn't count as good to you.

what do you use for your calculations? a potato with a brain larger than yours? :D

I don't know for sure because the sound quality is so muffled that at times it sounds like Mimi, other times like Xtina but not exactly like either of them and whoever is singing is a bit pitchy (unless that is to do with the sound). The arrangement however does lean more towards Christina's version but the tone is more reminiscent of Mariah's.

Also, what is that woman talking about in regards to Britney? Britney is credited for co-writing a few songs on her album so she didn't ask for the credit but was just given it anyway, because isn't she basically saying "no, she didn't actually write them"? But then again, it'd be hard to believe that Britney did have a hand in writing much of her new material, if at all.

Wait, what? I'm trying to decipher what you just typed, but the woman stated that Britney is satisfied in not having a writing credit, whereas others force themselves into being credited even when they haven't even changed any part of the song.

Britney's quite a capable writer, though, so I think that she does appreciate the craft of song-writing and lyricism :)

Whitney Houston was the 1st black female popstar of the modern era. She and Michael Jackson opened doors for many black artists, because together they broke the color barrier on MTV allowing more black acts to be showcased on MTV. Her success led to breakout acts like Anita Baker, Karen White, Janet Jackson, and Toni Braxton. Oh and let's not forget Mariah Carey. (who started as a Whitney clone)

The Bodyguard, her 1st film, is ICONIC (mainly for the soundtrack) and spawned the best selling female single of all time. She also starred in other classics like Waiting to Exhale and The Preacher's Wife.

Her voice was golden and considered by many to be the best voice is ever created. Her singing style revolutionized the landscape of pop music. That blend of pop-gosple styles has become the standard for what we expect in a pop ballad.

This is why Whitney Houston is legendary, this is why she topples Mariah.

Yeah I didn't quite understand what she meant because Britney is credited on her latest album and she's saying critics are saying Britney didn't write anything but is that because they're refusing to believe she really did? Either way, some songs Britney has had a hand in writing have been ok imo (I don't really like a lot or listen to much of her stuff) but like many others, she is one of at least 4 or 5 others who also co-write some songs so it makes me wonder how much input she actually has/had. Same with Rihanna.

yah, my bad, i forgot to take into account the massive grade inflations there, in america. but worldwide, in which grade inflations in unis aren't much of a thing--prolly because they cost a tenth of the fee in america--stats indicate otherwise. eh, my last bit was uncalled for. but stan-hating is never really good.

Darling, and yet there so many stans out there that worship their own favorite artists. Again, you can give all the claims in the world, but not everyone will like her; nor is Mariah for everyone's taste.

Whitney has been boo-ed in several occasions because her music was "too white". Remember the old Soul Train Awards in 1989?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure while Mariah did draw inspiration from Whitney; she was most famous during her debut days for her usage of her whistle register; not her belts.

Btw, I am an equal fan of both Mariah & Whitney. For me both of them are legends in their own category.

This interview was about Britney's Femme Fatale album where she received no songwriting credits except on a bonus track for the Japenese edition of the album. She was addressing the fact that people were criticizing Britney for not having co-written any song on Femme Fatale.

Beyonce is extremely shady LOL and the worst part is she tries to hide it. She shouldn't get credit, and it sorta irks me that she proclaims herself to be a writer when she obviously isn't. Unless the meaning of the song completely makes a 180, changing a few words here and there doesn't deserve writing credit...and thus, Bey shouldn't get any credit. She's doing too much.

You don't have to like Whitney. It's not about liking dear, its about respect and knowing your history. Whitney Houston had a lot of impact on the music industry and even Mariah said it herself, "None of us would sound the same if Aretha Franklin hadn't ever put out a record, or Whitney Houston hadn't".

And legends in their own category? Please, Last time I checked Whitney and Mariah were mainstream pop musicians, who rose to fame on their voices and ballads. They're in the same category I'm afraid, and Whitney is by far the superior one in nearly every way.

No, she can't. She once said she had tried to learn how to play and had had her mother trying to get her to learn, but never succeeded and all that technical details never get to fit into her head. Because of that Mariah always needs to work with a good pianist, who plays dome chords for her - then she picks and chooses the right ones, sings another ones and keeps working that way until she's got whole song.

No. If you actually taken the time to research about Mariah's glorious abilities as a lyricist (glorious was exaggerated), you will find that many other singers AND lyricists have credited her writing ability. For me, I think that in this moment in her career, she wants to be recognized more as a lyricist than a singer. She already placed herself as a monumental vocalist, now is her chance to be recognized as a great lyricist.

I was just bout to say, if we base everything on classical technique... Then Nicole is a better vocalist than Xtina or Beyonce...

Pop singing does not translate the same way.... So if singing abilities is based on proper classical techniques then by argument Nicole trumps them vocally and many here would disagree since Beyonce does NOT and has not been Classically trained. Having a voice coach just does not make you a classical singer, Nicole actually went trough it since she was a little child.

Not saying that music is about money or fame, but at this point with almost 100 million dollars I really don't think she cares. And why would she take advice from her haters? I certainly would not take advice from the opposition... lol

Uhmmm"Billie Jean" was not added to MTV's "medium rotation" playlist (two to three airings per day) until after it had already reached #1 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. A month later, it was bumped up into "heavy rotation," one week before the MTV debut of Jackson's "Beat It" video. Both videos were played several times a day for the next two months; by early summer, the channel had ceased playing either song. But the impact was permanent as by that point the videos by other black artists such as "Little Red Corvette" and "1999" by Prince and "She Works Hard For The Money" by Donna Summer were in healthy rotation on the channel . When Jackson's elaborate video for "Thriller" was released late in the year, the network's support for it was total, leading to a lengthy partnership with Jackson that helped other black music artists, including Prince, Whitney Houston, and Jackson's younger sister Janet Jackson"

So , no..it was Jackson, Prince and Donna Summer videos who did the ceiling breaking. Whitney was one of the singers benefiting.

"That blend of pop-gosple styles has become the standard for what we expect in a pop ballad."To many actually a negative.

And btw sadly, while you are defending Whitney's "legendary" status, the woman without whom probably Aretha and Whitney wouldn't have made the records /style they made..that blend of popular music-gospel..is all but forgotten. Is in fact more remembered by American/Country female singers than by "R&B" singers today.

Just wondering, without looking it up first, do you know who I am talking about?

And in the meantime, after a few days, this is the voting result. If the first difference is because of Christina fans "rigging votes", then why is the second number so much closer to each other yet Christina still wins?I remain in the believe in spite of what the Christina haters in the thread try to make out, the numbers show different and the lack of vocal support for Christina's vocals in the comment section might be skewered for already mentioned reason. :-)

Making me wonder if Christina fans are really as ridiculously fanatic as a certain someone here is making out? Or is it more that Christina haters are more fanatic than haters of other singers? ;-)

No, that spelling correction wasn't my post. I guess that means I am managing to "look" as intelligent as I am all by myself? ;-DAnd for those foolish enough to read DSM traits in that..it was a joke dears! Based upon the words of the poster.

Really dude? You just used my "LGBT" sexuality as a slur?Not only a stupid thing to do a site frequented by as many gays as this one, but also a nice demonstration of how out of your depth you are arguing with me. :-)

This just shows shows how you cherry-pick the statements claimed by those you are arguing with and backhandedly use them to dismiss their claims, while you disregard other claims that invalidate your own brand of logic. It is in itself a form of bullying that you won't even dare to recognise as such, and I can't even joke about your hypocrisy in here.

If a person tells you to stop even acknowledging their posts, then fucking respect that and don't be passive aggressive about it. It doesn't make anyone look good and, under this context, trivialises the notion of psychiatric conditions through anecdotes.

On the Internet, based on your typed diagnosis, everyone has NPD :P, or rather everyone has inherently narcissistic traits. What I'm trying to say is to have a laugh about discussions like this because taking something like this seriously in a blog like this is insulting to those who actually have it and actively seek forums in an attempts to understand their illnesses.

I'm not just talking about NPD, but also about other mental disorders.

I think at some point she needs to get over it. She said she still suffers from chronic depression due to her childhood, but other artists like Monica Naranjo had similarly difficult childhoods and still she hasn't do so many songs about self pity or feeling paranoid as many of the songs in "Lotus".

" don't give a single shit what you "like", all I care about is the facts."

Then why did you bring it up in your posts? If it doesn't matter to you, why mention it and waste everyone's time? Proof that you just post inflammatory comments for trolling.

"And no. You can't distinguish between objective or subjective because you assume your opinion to be representative of the truth. It is YOUR truth, but it is not THE truth."

I can. As I made very clear in my opening post on this thread. YOU can't. And you have made it apparent on several occasions and continue to do so.

Christina's fierce popularity and success goes against everything that you have studied, worked and perhaps paid tens of thousands of dollars for (or maybe your parents paid it all), so the denial is completely understandable. And you are quite hypocritical as well, praising the likes of Lana Del Ray, Ellie Goulding and Anastacia, at least 2 of whom can't sing live to save their lives (Anastacia too has plenty of poor live performances) and have bigger problems singing outside the studio than Christina does.

Anyway, arguing with you is like arguing with a stubborn child. I was hoping that being into music, you would understand and appreciate where different people are coming from. After All, music is, was and will always be a subjective thing.

Lucky you! Obviously you know nothing about NPD. Or about DSM or psychology really.You also make no sense. You want to respond to people sharing actual experience of having loved ones with this disorder by making it a "laugh" but at the same time YOU are trying to shame these two people and accusing them of "insulting" those who "seek forums in an attempt to understand their illness"?

" i thought that was opie's comment. disqus is bugging haaard. sorry. but, really, not sorry when you make stupid remarks like that. lesbian, really?"

I am presuming Mr English scholarship, that the period in between "that" and "lesbian" was another "typo" but nevertheless, to anybody who actually understands the language, that sentence reads like you used "lesbian" in a derogatory manner.Maybe now that you have that "scholarship", you will have an opportunity to ask your teacher to explain it to you. :-)

But I do love how you try to drag an accusation about bullying into my dismissing the request of a genuine bully to stop posting things in conversation with others which might entice him to respond. Because that is what he essentially requested.

It implies he doesn't only choose to read comments I make in response to him but also those I post in response to others.As already is obvious, of course, from the way he, after the previous time he declared not to want to engage with me anymore, kept leaping into conversations between me and other people. In order to post a response misreading and insulting and lying about me and my words.

When it comes to hypocrisy ...no worries! You and Primo got me beat effortlessly. Relax!!! :-)

"Lucky you! Obviously you know nothing about NPD. Or about DSM or psychology really."

Not even part of my argument , which was about mental illnesses in general. You're misappropriating the actual crux of my statements.

"You also make no sense. You want to respond to people sharing actual experience of having loved ones with this disorder by making it a "laugh" but at the same time YOU are trying to shame these two people and accusing them of "insulting" those who "seek forums in an attempt to understand their illness"?"

Again, you cherry-pick and misquote my statements. I specifically said that they actively seek 'forums'--specialised discussion boards specifically catering for the said disorder. You're fucking irresponsible with your claimed arguments when you try to validate yourself. The 'having a laugh' statement was fucking meant for those who joke about it, whilst knowing the grave implications when people actually have the said disorder. Don't fucking misquote my statements to emphasise certain claims of yours.

And also when you tell me 'you make no sense', support it with a fucking rhetoric, not just use it as a statement; that's not an argument; that's an ascribed description not supported with anything.

'but at the same time YOU are trying to shame these two people and accusing them of "insulting"'

Just fucking stop. You're not giving anyone any favours. If you've looked throughout this post, I'm posting in neutrality. Even when I'm defending Primo against your bullying, I'm not defending all his stances. I'm not 'shaming' anyone, as much as I'm stating how obnoxious it can be to trivialise a mental disorder. You're fucking trivialising a disorder by trying to align his 'personality' with his stated disorder; who are you to fucking tell people that he has it even when he told it to you? It's a moral thing not to do those kind of things, as much as you don't tell to the world that X person is gay even when they tell you that they are. It's fucking pathetic.

And you keep telling how hypocrite I am without actually backing it up. So much for logic.

I can't be bothered with someone who takes advantage of the Internet's anonymousness to try to rationalise their irrationality and blame everyone and anyone on their own lapse of knowledge. I just hope that you're not as hard-pressed to deny reality in real life.

And before I become misquoted, again: in no way am I comparing sexuality to mental illness; rather, I'm comparing how they are still frowned upon and the repercussions of stating it ordinarily without the other person's consent.

Well, if she really suffers from chronical depression then it's not just about "getting over it". Chronical depression, as the name indicates, is a desease that's gonna last for the rest of your life, much as Demi's bipolarism, and, unfortunately, there's little you can do about it. Anyway, it's not like all those songs are about self-pitty: Oh Mother is actually a thank you song, and the lyrics are about how they both are gonna get through that; while I'm OK, although the lrocs are about how painful, then she talks about the strengh her mother gave her and that, in the end, she's grown up and she's OK. Then Fighter is not actually meant for her father, but to her old manager who tried to scam her (I always wonder if that's what made her renegate from technique as well lol)

I don't know which Lotus songs you refer to because, TBH, I only listened to half of the album because I completely hated how it sounded.

"Reworking and recreating a song and taking credits for the final product"

I find it funny how this is okay to do if you're taking an unknown song by an unknown writer and using it on your album but unacceptable if you're covering a song that's already popular. For example, Madonna's songs "Ray of Light," "Don't Tell Me" and "Jump" were all originally composed by obscure, relatively unknown artists (one of them her own brother-in-law) but she reworked all of them to an almost unrecognizable degree from the original and earned herself a writing credit on each one. (And turned them all into hits, so yeah, she pretty much justified her writing credit.)

On the other hand, a singer could release a cover of any song from the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Michael Jackson or (harhar) Madonna and there would be no way in hell they could sneak in a writing credit, no matter how wildly different their version is.

I thnk Beyonce is overrated when it comes down to her voice. GIRL CAN PERFORM AND SHE CAN SING. But Christina wins this one.Okay Im gunna tell u why.Beyonce's Positives: Has Control, Killer Vibrato, Gorgeous Timbre, POWERHOUSE, Great TechniqueBeyonce's Negative: Not So Soulful(all technical singer), Too Seductive Not All VersatileChristina's Positives: Has a soulful Coloring, Raspyness, Great Vibrato, POWERHOUSE, Emotional,Versatile, Whistle Register, Riffs and Runs, MelismaChristina's Negatives: Screams, Lacks Control , Lacks TechniquePoint is her voice is more emotional. Bey's is more Technical. Bey aint a bad singer. Chrissy jus needs a better technical skill. I think Bey could top her if she wanted to.

So we have something in common. Aguilera started training with Seth Riggs in 2010 or so (I don't quite remember, but it was stated even on this site) and I am mad at her she didn't advance much. I've once had an opportunity to have a 30 minutes training session with Riggs - and back then I had trouble with getting vibrato. He thought for a while, tried a few exercises and told me to pant and then to try another exercise - and it worked instantly. Ironically - I sang Aguilera's song. Getting to the point - I know he can teach well, I daresay he's an amazing teacher, so I'm almost 100% sure if she didn't grasp basics of proper singing - it's all her fault. Wasted money and time. :/

That would still indicate they might not be fanatic enough to go for vote rigging. I mean, if you are that fanatic, you will want Christina to win in every thing you can vote for and you surely then would not click on just the one when the other is right there under it? ;-)

LOL give it up hon.You are still all over the place.That first quote, obviously to those who comprehend English, refers to your "diagnoses of me, your calling TheItFactors posting of the DSM traits his "typed diagnoses" and your lack of understanding the trait under which he posted the line you quote regarding "hard to see on the internet".And the fact that you interpret those DSM traits as "by those traits everybody on the internet suffers from NPD".

"cherry-picking" another English phrase you don't fully comprehend it's definition and especially it's use of. "irresponsible" is another one.

I did support my "you make no sense" statement. Fact that you didn't recognize this supports my ongoing claim, you should stop responding to comments in languages you don't comprehend well enough to correctly interpret them.However even if I hadn't, your desire for me to not use it as "just a statement"..is just that! Merely your desire. There is no "rule" which says one cannot simply post a conclusion drawn. That one HAS to reiterate the reason for that conclusion. Especially when that reason is the post one replied to in and by itself.That would be superfluous.

Just like I don't really have to substantiate the conclusion that you are not very bright. Because you provide the proof with your every post! I really can't be bothered in that case to repost your every post in between quotes.

The expression btw is "doing favours".

And I am not trivialising anything. But you truly demonstrate yourself as a price idiot with that statement " by trying to align his 'personality' with his stated disorder;"Yes hon, that is how it works! An individual's personality is aligned with his PERSONALITY disorder.

As for primo. NPD falls under the header sociopath. His personality matches ALL of the DSM traits, he himself considers, and those were his own words "a narcissist" and the reason why he was not at 12 officially diagnosed as such is because the diagnoses for which specific personality disorder a person suffers from is not done at that age. That is because the diagnoses requires the traits to be persistent over many years. Twelve is too young.There really is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Primo suffers from NPD. I at no point trivialised it because unlike you, I know very well how much this hurts the people who love him and care for him.I simply pointed out that a lot of his obsession with certain aspects and fierce rejection of other aspects of singing as well as his aggression at specific times are a result of him suffering from a disorder.A fact he himself brought up. And as an excuse for some of his behavior in fact.

The fact that he uses it as an excuse doesn't wash with me because it so happens one of the traits of this particular disorder is extremely manipulative behavior. That means he is not only likely trying to manipulate how people will respond to his behavior but also means he has a measure of control which makes it very possible for him to argue his likes and dislikes without the kind of bullying he standard behaves in.

If you want "backing up" of your hypocrisy, I suggest reading over your own comments (if you understand those even) but from just your last comment this one will do " throughout this post, I'm posting in neutrality"Or is that simply you again not understanding the definition and use of the word "neutrality"?Hard to say as you have demonstrated a pattern in both.

ROFL They only ones who who would that wildly misinterpret that sentence are people like you and primo. And worse, you would then keep endlessly repeating your misinterpretation months later as "proof" of the other's "hypocrisy" or something.

I certainly would not. In spite of you again making mistakes in your phrasing which are demonstrating, like primo, you are really not in the position to asses logic. You lack the capacity. Read your own sentence again (seeing as you want me to reiterate that which substantiates my claim) "as much as you don't tell to the world that X person is gay even when they tell you that they are"

And also even in spite of the fact that primo brought his own diagnoses into the blog himself. Thus making your comparison illogical either way.Most of your comparisons , now that we are on the subject and you want me to substantiate my conclusions on you, are lacking for much the same reason. They lack actual resemblance.

The reason you were diagnosed with the general term sociopath rather than the specific disorder is because psychologists don't diagnose specific disorders at that age. The diagnoses for personality disorders requires the traits to have been persistent over the course of years. Twelve is simply too young to do so. But you are not twelve anymore dude.Where you fit a few but not all traits of other personality disorders, you clearly fit ALL of those for NPD. And it's also from partly your own statements, partly from statements made about your behavior by others as well as comments on sites you yourself linked to very clear that these traits have been demonstrated by you for several years.

And another judicious edit took place. That "or perhaps simply quite vain" was added later.

And no, lacking empathy doe not mean your "feelings are your own".Nor actually the other things you claim.

And there you go again, brandishing your disorder as some kind of badge of honor or "achievement" which sets you on par with "CEO's, politicians and even presidents".That is a prime example not of "vanity" but of one of the traits of NPD.

Well, that F from INFJ I think does fit the way you argued, the kind of thinking you presented 9 the dicussion where auto tune and the business were mentioned)

As for the Schizotypal...not something i can judge but going by the description I found, I don't think that diagnose would be BECAUSE of a scientific bent. But I would consider whether, if you feel it is not correct, the diagnose might not be a result of growing up with a mother with NPD. A lot of those traits mentioned in the schizotypal disorder would be rather logical ,almost necessary adaptive, responses to being raised by someone with NPD traits.

I don't think DD asked us to be less contentious. Rather to be more civil about it and also to take it less seriously.After all, we are discussing this under a blog entry meant to instigate a "stan war" . Being contentious would be the very idea. ;-);-)

Btw if you COULD have been "bothered" you could have responded to the implied question, that the "period" was supposed to be there but that you did not capitalize the start of the next sentence. Which would explain why that sentence read differently than intended.

On the other hand. If you were simply asking that Anon 5783 to conform a fact mentioned by anon_7, THAT would demonstrate hypocrisy next to your " It's a moral thing not to do those kind of things, as much as you don't tell to the world that X person is gay even when they tell you that they are. It's fucking pathetic."

Either way, I stand corrected. You did not use "lesbian" as a slur. You simply did not display any issue whatsoever with someone else doing so and instead expressed surprise about it in response to a third poster.

Vocalists ARE interpreters... they use their talent to tell a story: that is what sets vocalists apart from singers who lack in the interpretation spectrum. The difference can be seen as a tangible form in Fantasia. Always worrying about hitting the right notes, using the correct intonation, and other technical factors will always have major impacts on your performance because you will lack in the interpretation spectrum. Looking at the 1960's - 2000's singers, you find that most of them care little for the technicalities (apart from Mariah and a few others) and go straight to the soul! The history of singing is quite an elaborate one but, you will always find that from the earliest singers to the singers today, they used/use their voices to interpret songs. Vocalists and interpreters are one entity in my book.

Then you don't know what a vocalist is. Take for example Ella Fitzgerald, that's a vocalist, she was able to use her voice with virtuosity like an instrumentalist could play his instrument, same for someone like Caterina Valente, Mina, Maureen McGovern, etc. Then there are the interpreters who are not necessarily great singers but can tell a story or deliver the message. In it you have people like Bob Dylan, Kurt Cobain, Sia, Billie Holiday, etc. David Bowie said it better "I'm an alright singer, but truly I'm more of an interpreter, I can tell a story, and that's my thing".