apologies brother i do not want to sound condescending, but this is a major shortcoming affecting our community as a whole and particularly sunnis. we are content with summary judgements and are unwilling to think nor adapt to our times. nor are we interested in examining the hadith that are cited as proof.

as for rational inquiry and reasoning - most have either abandoned it altogether or do not give it sufficient importance. what else explains poor reasoning that is rife in intellectual discourse?

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"level of iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die"

sounds very noble and pious. but remember that ulama who were far more pious and righteous than we can hope to be and had better understanding of the shariah listed out cases that merit exemption from jama'ah. let's take bahar e shariat, for example:

- fear that one's food or property could be damaged, stolen, hurt etc.

- a poor man in debt who cannot repay his debt and fears that the lender will accost him

- fear of a tyrant (or in general someone who can hurt him - say a mafioso or a local goon)

- fear that the caravan will leave (in our times, that one may miss their flight or train)

​

of course, this is for the individuals and does not mean shut down mosques. i understand that. my point is that in the present circumstance it is not wise to go to gatherings. as for shutting down mosques completely that is a different issue/argument. perhaps we could have a functional jama'at of few people who take precautions and maintain the jama'at while the rest pray at homes.

of course, this is for the individuals and does not mean shut down mosques. i understand that. my point is that in the present circumstance it is not wise to go to gatherings. as for shutting down mosques completely that is a different issue/argument. perhaps we could have a functional jama'at of few people who take precautions and maintain the jama'at while the rest pray at homes.

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Salaam. There are among us some who are not displaying symptoms and are probably infecting people, some of who may die because of it (pretty remote but possible nonetheless). fyi

the concept of 'adwaa' or 'udh kar lagna' or disease being transmitted from one to another up until alahazrat's time is NOT the same as bacterial/viral infection that WE NOW KNOW. hence it would be unfair to judge the opinions of ulama who did not have access to this information and at the same time, negligence on our part to continue to look the other way and refuse to harmonise the information

here is a short vid on the bubonic plague. notice a passing mention of the belief that disease 'jumped' from person to person. THAT is adwa. no one gets a headache by sitting next to a person with a headache. or a diabetic or a heart patient.

me too. the usual suspects who stand to gain from any such machinations are losing badly. markets are down, every sector is losing money big time. only big-pharma MAY make some money if there is a vaccination/medicine developed, but that won't explain the current mess.

as you have noted, gates has been warning since 2010. it is not surprising because his foundation has invested in it and obviously will have access to cutting-edge research.

But I think the panic, lockdowns, mass quarantine etc. are not proportionate to the risk posed by Covid-19.

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it is moot point.

personally, i think that the threat is real going by what's happening in italy, germany and france. and iran. the US and the UK. china. south korea. hey, wait. what about russia. why are there very few cases? my point is that if only a few thousands would die or if it were not that contagious, countries would not lockdown at a war footing. nor would countries like US allow losses of billions.

all theories of how bad it is (or perhaps not) will be tested in the coming weeks - when large, diverse populations like US and india (incidentally both led by megalomaniacal morons who wasted valuable time) will enter the (forecasted) critical phase. hear an expert predict a tsunami for india.

Unfortunately many started attacking our scholars and giving ammunition to other groups.

for example

this guy Dar al-hadith
supposedly barelwi who runs the website dar al-hadith mocks by his post on facebook

Yesterday at 1:36 AM
Interesting times:

*Ramadan*
Barelvis: the science is clear! The moon could not have been sighted. We cannot follow your sighting.
Salafis: science can be wrong, Allah is Powerful over all things.

*Covid19*
Barelvis: forget science! where is your Tawhid and reliance in God? We will keep the mosques open.
Salafis: the science is clear about the dangers of the virus, we trust these scientists and will be closing mosqueshttps://www.facebook.com/edits/?cid=10216206879301468

another guy who posts by the name of Qalandar Tabrizi - Hatem Awni Sect
has been posting crazy things and someone sidi Aqdas posts are being shared everywhere on the groups.

- this crisis may be natural or a part of covert or overt bio warfare (man made)

- reasons for considering conspiracies - timing is major - see the oil prices and markets, international military exercises in wuhan a mere few weeks before this, almost looks like the economical giants (countries and corporations) are working in unison to control and exploit this situation to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, to destroy small business as best as possible, leverage the situation for political gain and control, the world is in no mood for actual war right now, so the powers that be need another control mechanism at this point in time

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I don't buy any conspiracy theory angle (even though US & China have been openly pointing fingers at each other); notwithstanding Dean Koontz's "The Eyes of Darkness" shot in dark. It's pandemic that was waiting to happen.

Bill Gates had been warning about it for long (and some conspiracy theorists have unfairly blamed Gates foundation for this outbreak). I would highly recommend everyone here to watch Gates' 2015 TED talk (if you haven't already).

- are things blown out of proportion in regards to quarantine and safety measures and flattening the curve? next 8-10 weeks and the data available then will make it clear. it will also make it clear in hindsight if the decisions taken now on many Islamic matters were right or not

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A timely article in BBC on whether experts are over-estimating the threat (and over-counting Covid-19 related deaths) to the elderly who are anyway susceptible to seasonal spikes in mortality rate. As mentioned in my earlier post, pandemic deaths are being conflated with deaths that would have occurred any way during the normal course of event.

- either way, we as Muslims and common folk need to deal with it in terms of precautions and treatments

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I am not downplaying the risk to the elderly and the vulnerable (including the health workers). If I had someone vulnerable/at-risk in family, my precautions would be more heightened.

But I think the panic, lockdowns, mass quarantine etc. are not proportionate to the risk posed by Covid-19. As it happens, this is the first pandemic with real-time update, round-the-clock flash news, fueled by genie out of social media bottle. If mass hysteria is not contained, then similar pandemics in near future will lead people to edge and cause an anthropological shift of seismic proportions.

A place where people would congregrate in the past whenever such outbreaks and plagues would occur, and plead to Allah for His mercy and forgiveness. If one has examples of Masajid being vacated to due outbreaks/plagues, in the past, please share.

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same argument of mufti nizamuddin sahib. the point is if this has not happened before - does not mean we cannot examine if it cannot be done at all.

So if many of the elderly and (young) firmly believe in "La Adwa" and they act upon it, would they be considered unintelligent? They may or may not get the disease. But are they to blame for firmly believing in this hadith?

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firstly, to assure you: i have read alahazrat's risalah once again and the latest was a few days ago. i have been looking up all the instances and dozens of commentaries related to this hadith - the many routes, the various wordings etc.

is it qaT'yi? alahazrat's risalah itself starts with the acknowledgement that there are conflicting reports in this matter (albeit according to alahazrat, the conflict is superficial) and proceeds to prove the position he prefers. in fact, in the risalah (al-Haqq al-mujtala) alahazrat himself cites hadith commentators like ali al-qari who prefers the position that some diseases are infectious and proximity causes spread of disease (this is a summarisation - not verbatim. please note)

the hadith is clearly open for interpretation and imam ibn hajar cites six different opinions on this issue. among which is spread of disease is possible.

when this be the case, and the issue at hand is of serious disease and even death, one should take a position even if one has to err on the side of caution. particularly when giants among hadith scholars have differed upon it.

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aside: toorpushti is allamah abu abdullah faDlullah ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Husayn al-turpushti al-Hanafi. (d.661 AH) a contemporary of imam nawawi (d.676 AH). turpusht was in the province of shiraz. (is it turan-posht?). zabidi says that it is turbisht (with kasrah on baa. توربشت). author of the commentary on masabih al-sunnah of imam baghawi named "al-muyassar".

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mirqat al-mafatih:

the second opinion is that there is no evidence in this hadith to comprehensively reject that contagion is possible. toor-pushti said: " in my opinion the second opinion is a better explanation of the two (awla al-tawilayn) because it seeks to reconcile the hadith, whereas the first one suspends the principles of medicine. and the shariah does not negate it, rather it has been narrated that the shariah attests medical advice and rely upon (medicine) in the manner we have mentioned. [approximate translation]

for those who wish to read turpushti's comments, see hadith #3542 (p.1010 in the available PDF editions).

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of course, alahazrat refutes this based on the knowledge available in his time. in sha'Allah wa bi tawfiqihi we will see more details in the paper i am working on.

Perhaps some of the elderly are at the level of Iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die because of such an attendance rather than stay home due to a virus

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apologies brother i do not want to sound condescending, but this is a major shortcoming affecting our community as a whole and particularly sunnis. we are content with summary judgements and are unwilling to think nor adapt to our times. nor are we interested in examining the hadith that are cited as proof.

as for rational inquiry and reasoning - most have either abandoned it altogether or do not give it sufficient importance. what else explains poor reasoning that is rife in intellectual discourse?

---
"level of iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die"

sounds very noble and pious. but remember that ulama who were far more pious and righteous than we can hope to be and had better understanding of the shariah listed out cases that merit exemption from jama'ah. let's take bahar e shariat, for example:

extreme cold, storm, torrential rain, mud, slush or sleet etc.

ALSO:

- fear that one's food or property could be damaged, stolen, hurt etc.

- a poor man in debt who cannot repay his debt and fears that the lender will accost him

- fear of a tyrant (or in general someone who can hurt him - say a mafioso or a local goon)

- fear that the caravan will leave (in our times, that one may miss their flight or train)

​

of course, this is for the individuals and does not mean shut down mosques. i understand that. my point is that in the present circumstance it is not wise to go to gatherings. as for shutting down mosques completely that is a different issue/argument. perhaps we could have a functional jama'at of few people who take precautions and maintain the jama'at while the rest pray at homes.

shaykh asrar rashid drank rat poison if we were to take asbab why did shaykh asrar drink rat poison?

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imho shaykh asrar's bravado was uncalled for and very unwise. particularly for a scholar and an otherwise sensible person like him. one does not have to justify or satisfy every challenge. personally, i do not like getting into such arguments/derring-do.

just because the woman said "drink poison and eat a date", shaykh asrar just got up and drank it. for what? in fact, his argument that "x thing in the bible says 1,2,3" then do believe in it LITERALLY is a non-starter. the same can be demanded of us - and we point to many things that are figurative. regardless, it was a weak argument.

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one should always be mindful of the Power and Plan of Allah. people may say that it is about faith. but are you sure that it is the correct interpretation? that is what the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam intended?

take this 'hadith' oft-quoted by people:

The Prophet (Salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam) also mentioned that the saliva of a believer is Shifaa' for his brother.

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at best it is a rewording and understood by implication.

imam sakhawi says in al-maqasid al-hasanah:

summary: "reeq al-mu'min shifa" or "su'ur al-mum'n shifa" can be understood in the light of the authentic hadith in sahihayn: "bismillahi turbatu arDina bi riqati ba'Dina yushfa saqimuna bi idhni rabbina" / in the name of Allah, the dust of our earth and the saliva of one amongst us, the sick among us will be cured by the permission of Allah.

hadith #5745 of bukhari. imam ibn hajar mentions that imam nawawi said that 'turbatu arDina' means the dust of madinah. and the saliva of one amongst us means "the saliva of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam" which is special unlike any of us. though ibn hajar reserved his judgement on this opinion.

the point is: it is NOT absolute. and the claim that 'saliva of mu'min is cure' is at best a weak narration and cited in faDa'il. you cannot discard sensible advice based on 'faith' upon this statement.

the result of our "educational" culture of not focusing on the main priorities of the Shariah and its various branches of knowledge and fiqh, but rather the desi Sunni culture of living in a world full of emotional speeches, fazail, naatkhwani and karaamaat

So if many of the elderly and (young) firmly believe in "La Adwa" and they act upon it, would they be considered unintelligent? They may or may not get the disease. But are they to blame for firmly believing in this hadith?

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I think they should consider the fiqh not act on a single Hadith without considering all the evidence

the one day lockdown modi has announced for tomorrow, 22nd is widely believed to be a dry run for an impending two-month lockdown. these beasts have no humanity and don't care if people die - they actually take satisfaction in killing people.

He then went on to mention a story about a man in egypt who had diabetes and upon hearing that honey had shifaa as per the ahadith, he drank/ate a whole bowl of honey, and he ended up getting cured.

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anecdotal evidence or an exception is not enough to build a theory nor prove your point.

imam muslim is supposed to have died because of eating a big bowl of dates while researching a hadith - perhaps he had diabetes and dates aggravated his condition. will that lead us to a generalisation: "eating dates will kill you"?

Obviously, i dont mean jump in front of a speeding car, relying on divine will to save one.

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you are arguing for and against.

every muslim should have firm faith in the qur'anic injunction:

nothing will befall us except that which Allah ta'ala has ordained for us. yet at the same time, we must not present ourselves to danger claiming trust (tawakkul) (baqarah, 2:195):

do not put your lives in danger by your own doing.

alahazrat explains: [FR v24/p308]

"important note: just as it is impermissible to flee from a plague-hit town/city, it is also impermissible and a sin to enter such a place. there are hadith which explicitly forbid both actions. because in the first one is attempting to flee from the Divine Decree and in the second, one wants to (deliberately) fight (or face) an affliction, a trial imposed by Divine Decree.

and to present the excuse of 'exhibiting trust' [in Allah] is utter stupidity. Trust in Providence [tawakkul] is not the name of abandoning means"​

My points are specifically regarding congregating in the Masajid. The houses of Allah. A place where people would congregrate in the past whenever such outbreaks and plagues would occur, and plead to Allah for His mercy and forgiveness. If one has examples of Masajid being vacated to due outbreaks/plagues, in the past, please share.

On the other hand, I have heard numerous accounts of people running to Allah in such times rather then hiding themselves in their houses.
Once again, just my personal opinion, and I could possibly be 100% misunderstanding the whole scenario.