"Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire."

"Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire."

"What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire."

Seems kind of clear to me. I'd really appreciate some comments from Robert and Dhamma_follower on the entire sutta which appears to me to be the mainstream Theravada position that Khun Sujin disagrees with.

Dear Dan74, Kirk, Sam SR, all,

First of all, I want to make it clear that in this thread, we are discussing about the vipassana kind of wisdom, and therefore of vipassana bhavana.

Both RobertK and me, we have said somewhere earlier in the 48 pages of this thread that samatha bhavana is another development, which requires another set of conditions, such as a quiet environment and a stable, not too loose not too tight posture. However, the key for the development of samatha is also a clear understanding of the dhamma presently arisen as wholesome or unwholesome, and of the way to cultivate wholesomeness, as it is clearly stated in one sutta I have quoted, that I will quote again here:

"It wasn't the case, brahman, that the Blessed One praised mental absorption of every sort, nor did he criticize mental absorption of every sort. And what sort of mental absorption did he not praise? There is the case where a certain person dwells with his awareness overcome by sensual passion, seized with sensual passion. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen. Making that sensual passion the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it.

.....

"And what sort of mental absorption did he praise? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the sort of mental absorption that the Blessed One praised.

So, even for samatha bhavana, although postures and environment are the aiding conditions, the key is understanding too, both of the diffence between wholesome and unwholesome states as to cultivate the wholesome ones, and of how the objects can arouse wholesome states of mind to the degree of jhana as described above. All those conditions make up samatha practice. It doesn't happen by mere wishing or wanting, or just sitting.

However, with vipassana bhavana, it is difference. The only obstacle for it is wrong view, not unwholesome mind states (see satipatthana sutta), nor a noisy or disturbing environment. So right view, or right understanding which is conditioned by hearing the Dhamma and wise considering of what has been heard is essentiel. the right view here, of vipassana type has to do with the characteristics of realities, both individual and general. So to clearly understand that dhammas arise by conditions is of most importance, in order to understand any reality which arises as anatta. Without realizing that dhammas are just dhammas, not a person, is indispensible before any higher insight can occur about the Tilakkhana, as we have learnt about the 16 stages of insight: only after one stage can the next stage unfolds.

So if there is clear understanding of what are the conditions for each kind of development, there can be more reflection on what one has been taking to be "practice".

We don't deny practice, we just don't take it to really mean someone doing something, because wanting or wishing can not do proper practice. Practice has has its own conditions that we can all explore further for our selves.

Another thing is: while many people consider the sutta to be prescriptive, AS and followers consider them to be rather descriptive. If you try to read them under that light, I think you will have a very different conclusions. Above all, the Buddha's teaching should be about the Truth, so there should be a conformity in the Tipitaka. So what is the understanding which can make the whole Tipitaka in conformity with each other?

“The words ‘insight alone’ are meant to exclude not virtue, etc., but serenity (i.e.jhána), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is foremphasis. But the word ‘alone’ actually excludes only that concentration with distinction[of jhána]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see IV.32). Taking this stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence,pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone” (Vism-mhþ 9–10).

And, as I've quoted before:

"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

This is what Dan, and other's, are getting at. Sati and samadhi are necessary conditions for vipassana.

[Both, of course, as everyone here has stated many times, arise with right view as a condition.]

and For the dry insight worker only khanika Samadhi is required. Khanki Samadhi- momentary concentration - can be either kusala or akusala. This khanika Samadhi - ekaggata cetasika- can be weak to strong. At the brief moments of vipassana nana it is strong because it is focusses so clearly, as the difference between mind door and sense door is revealed. And at the moment of penetrating Nibbana it is very strong indeed, and is even given the name 'jhana' because of its strength. it happens in a brief flash..

without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.

However, with vipassana bhavana, it is difference. The only obstacle for it is wrong view, not unwholesome mind states (see satipatthana sutta), nor a noisy or disturbing environment. So right view, or right understanding which is conditioned by hearing the Dhamma and wise considering of what has been heard is essentiel. the right view here, of vipassana type has to do with the characteristics of realities, both individual and general. So to clearly understand that dhammas arise by conditions is of most importance, in order to understand any reality which arises as anatta. Without realizing that dhammas are just dhammas, not a person, is indispensible before any higher insight can occur about the Tilakkhana, as we have learnt about the 16 stages of insight: only after one stage can the next stage unfolds.

A couple things that have been mentioned before, Right View does not require talking about Dhamma practice and the experience that arises from it in abhidhamma terms, using abhidhamma catergories. The Buddha clearly did not teach in the suttas such ideas as "ultimate realities," which is an abhidhamma notion that is not necessary. Right view has a role to play, but right view is also cultivated by the meditation practice and the insights that arise from it.

So if there is clear understanding of what are the conditions for each kind of development, there can be more reflection on what one has been taking to be "practice".

And even more importantly is the cultivation of concentration and awareness of the rise and fall of the mind/body process.

We don't deny practice, we just don't take it to really mean someone doing something, because wanting or wishing can not do proper practice. Practice has has its own conditions that we can all explore further for our selves.

Wanting and wishing can be positive factors in that they can lead one to cultivate one's understanding of the Dhamma. Your notion of "proper practice" is not supported by the suttas.

Another thing is: while many people consider the sutta to be prescriptive, AS and followers consider them to be rather descriptive.

But, of course, that has already been dealt with at length here, and as we have seen, as the commentary I quoted several times here shows us, Sujin is very wrong in that, but the suttas themselves are clearly both descriptive and perscriptive, as a careful reading of them shows. Again, the Abhidhamma, particularly the much later Abhidhamma, is not at all necessary for Dhamma practice.

If you try to read them under that light, I think you will have a very different conclusions. Above all, the Buddha's teaching should be about the Truth, so there should be a conformity in the Tipitaka. So what is the understanding which can make the whole Tipitaka in conformity with each other?

You have shown absolutely no conformity. Your above comment makes that quite clear.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

and For the dry insight worker only khanika Samadhi is required. Khanki Samadhi- momentary concentration - can be either kusala or akusala. This khanika Samadhi - ekaggata cetasika- can be weak to strong. At the brief moments of vipassana nana it is strong because it is focusses so clearly, as the difference between mind door and sense door is revealed. And at the moment of penetrating Nibbana it is very strong indeed, and is even given the name 'jhana' because of its strength. it happens in a brief flash..

It this a text or an interpretation? Either way it talks about strong samadhi.

robertk wrote:without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.

Obviously your opinion is different from my interpretation of the text. I think that what I quoted, the rest of the Visuddhimagga, the Suttas, and other Theravada literature, make it clear that what is required is considerably more than what is required for reading a book.

I'm sure this can go back and forth indefinitely. I guess we all have to be our own judge of the efficaciousness of any particular path of practice and use the points of reference + guidance to the best of our own ability. In my experience what is seen as beneficial changes over time. Is "Dhamma" static or fluid?

Mr Man wrote:I'm sure this can go back and forth indefinitely. I guess we all have to be our own judge of the efficaciousness of any particular path of practice and use the points of reference + guidance to the best of our own ability. In my experience what is seen as beneficial changes over time. Is "Dhamma" static or fluid?

Fluid.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

It this a text or an interpretation? Either way it talks about strong samadhi.

robertk wrote:without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.

Obviously your opinion is different from my interpretation of the text. I think that what I quoted, the rest of the Visuddhimagga, the Suttas, and other Theravada literature, make it clear that what is required is considerably more than what is required for reading a book.

Mike

Khanika has the meaning of momentary. Eggakata cetasika (concentration) arises with practically all cittas, kusala or akusala. From Bodhi's tranlsation of the Abhidhammathasangaha

The life-span of a citta is termed, in theAbhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is atemporal unit of such brief duration that, accordingto the commentators, in the time that it takes forlightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions ofmind-moments can elapse. ....Within thebreadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs itsmomentary function, and then dissolves, conditioningthe next citta in immediate succession. Thus, throughthe sequence of mind-moments, the flow ofconsciousness continues uninterrupted like the watersin a stream.” [page 156 of CMA]

“The cetasikas are mental phenomena that occur inimmediate conjunction with citta or consciousness, andassist citta by performing more specific tasks in thetotal act of cognition. The mental factors cannotarise without citta, nor can citta arise completelysegregated from the mental factors.

[page 76 of CMA]

The four characteristics that delineate therelationship between the citta and its concomitantcetasikas are as follows:(1) arising together with consciousness (ekuppaada),(2) ceasing together with consciousness (ekanirodha),(3) having the same object as consciousness(ekaalambana),(4) having the same base as consciousness(ekavatthuka).[page 77 of CMA]

Thus i think we agree that khanika samadhi is brief and it can arise with either kusala or akusala- it can be right or wrong concentration.Even in wrong concentration it can be quite strong- like a safe cracker picking a lock say.

And of course the suttas are clear that one can attain while listining to Dhamma, or speaking about Dhamma, or thinking about Dhamma. On emoment can be citta with lust or anger, the next could be satipatthana with deep understanding of that moment of lust or anger.Does samadhi strengthen at the moments there is listening and considering with right view? Yes it does, but the key point is in my opinion right view.

robertk wrote:Khanika has the meaning of momentary. Eggakata cetasika (concentration) arises with practically all cittas, kusala or akusala.

If all cittas already have concentration cetasika, then why did the Buddha talk about developing concentration? What is the difference between Jhāna and restless state of mind? How can you develop that which already is? You can't make water any more wet than it is.

If every second it is a new object, then how can we talk about "focusing on one object" if it is different object every second?

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

dhamma follower wrote:No iddhi is needed. When the question is WHY, each one can give his/her own answer and examine for him/her-self.

Sure, I'll tell you my answer. To settle and steady the mind to allow for clear seeing

.

Dear Kirk,

Are you refering here to samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana?

I am referring to this:

"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present?

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"...

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

Alex123 wrote:If all cittas already have concentration cetasika, then why did the Buddha talk about developing concentration? What is the difference between Jhāna and restless state of mind?

Because that is the development of samatha, not satipatthana. Samatha jhana is very high kusala, and the jhana=labhi can use it for satipatthana when he has mastery of jhana, but most people cannot attain mastery of jhana, it was mostly only Buddha's disciples. How many true jhana masters do you see walking around nowadays?

Alex123 wrote:If all cittas already have concentration cetasika, then why did the Buddha talk about developing concentration? What is the difference between Jhāna and restless state of mind?

Because that is the development of samatha, not satipatthana.

What the Satipatthana sutta actually says is:

[4] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening? There is the case where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining factors for Awakening: analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration, & equanimity.)

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Virgo wrote:Because that is the development of samatha, not satipatthana.

Noble Eightfold path includes both sati and samādhi.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

“The words ‘insight alone’ are meant to exclude not virtue, etc., but serenity (i.e.jhána), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is foremphasis. But the word ‘alone’ actually excludes only that concentration with distinction[of jhána]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see IV.32). Taking this stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence,pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone” (Vism-mhþ 9–10).

Mike

Dear Mike,

That "concentration is classed as access and absorption" is taken from the chapter of Concentration development, in other words, samatha bhavana. So i don't think we should take it to apply to sukkha vipassana- dry insight workers. In the suttas there are so many examples of householder, having obviously no previous jhanna nor access concentration as result of samatha bhavana (at least in that life), yet upon hearing the Buddha' exposition of the Dhamma, they attained enlightenment to different degrees.

Like RobertK, I am of the opinion that what "no insight comes about without momentary concentration" refers actually to right concentration, as ekkagata (the mental factor of concentration) arises with all citta. And they can be of different degrees, up to the level of jhanna when path consciousness occurs.

"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

To me, the above actually supports the view that right concentration arises together with right view. As right view is of different degrees, from intellectual levels up to direct levels, the right concentration also is of different degrees. When the lokuttara citta arises, the 8 cetasikas arise all together at the same time, making right view, right concentration supermundane and thus right knowledge.

That being said, as it has been said many times, we do believe we are still at very low levels of understanding, so it s not to say " we just listen to the Dhamma then lokkutara citta will arise soon". It is indeed a long process. As Robert has pointed out, at the moment of insight where the mind door appears, at that moment, there's no other object appearing though only in a flash moment, it is a lone world at that moment. And the degree of concentration at that moment is very strong, and can be said to be of the degree of access concentration. So any little right understanding now, even intellectually, has right concentration accompanied which can be gradually buit up to the degree of access concentration when insight arises, and to aborption level when Nibbana is experienced.

I also noticed that very often, we mix up "understanding of the meaning of the words", and 'understanding intellectually". There can be listening many times with understanding of the meaning of the words, but there's no understanding intellectually. But if there is a moment of real understanding, even intellectually, it can be known that the quality of the mind at that moment is different, and it can become clearer and clearer. Thanks to what has been heard about the characteristics of the mental factors which arise with any wholesome citta, there can be a gradual investigation of the characteristics of the mental factors that arise at those moments (including sati, viriya, ekkagata, panna) for them to appear better and better as only elements. But only slowly and by conditions, totally.

Do you have any idea why "the four elements" are classified under samatha bhavana?

"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

To me, the above actually supports the view that right concentration arises together with right view. As right view is of different degrees, from intellectual levels up to direct levels, the right concentration also is of different degrees. When the lokuttara citta arises, the 8 cetasikas arise all together at the same time, making right view, right concentration supermundane and thus right knowledge.

Except it is not saying that "right concentration arises together with right view."

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12

"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present?

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"...

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

To me, the above actually supports the view that right concentration arises together with right view. As right view is of different degrees, from intellectual levels up to direct levels, the right concentration also is of different degrees. When the lokuttara citta arises, the 8 cetasikas arise all together at the same time, making right view, right concentration supermundane and thus right knowledge.

Except it is not saying that "right concentration arises together with right view."