The first two steps of breath meditation [§151] involve simple tasks of directed thought and evaluation: directing one's thoughts and attention to the breath in and of itself, in the present, at the same time evaluating it as one begins to discern variations in the length of the breath. Some modern teachers maintain that the factor of evaluation here also includes taking one's observations of short and long breathing as a basis for adjusting the rhythm of the breath to make it as comfortable as possible. Because the first level of jhāna must be based on a sense of pleasure [§238], this advice is very practical.

The remaining steps are willed or determined: One "trains oneself," first by manipulating one's sense of conscious awareness, making it sensitive to the body as a whole.Then one can begin manipulating the bodily sensations of which one is aware, reducing them to a single sensation of calm by letting "bodily fabrication" — the breath — grow calm so as to create an easeful sense of rapture and pleasure.[i] A comparison between the stages of breath meditation and the graphic analogies for jhāna[/i]

retrofuturist wrote:Thanks for sharing the quotes. I have a couple of quick questions with reference to what you've highlighted...

With regards to the first red highlighted quote, I've heard about some insight practitioners (I forget their lineage) who deliberately cultivate physical pain in order to give them physical sensations to work with. Have you heard of this practice, and if so, do you know of any quotes/texts etc. from the vipassana traditions that explain that practice of deliberately cultivating physical pain, juxtaposed against the need to make sure our body is at peace? I'm curious as to how the two things might be resolved.

No. What you may be referring to is the usual statements from just about any Dhamma teacher you could name that whatever arises is an opportunity to learn, and expecting to only ever have pleasant experiences isn't helpful. You could probably pull like "pain is an opportunity to learn" from some Dhamma talk, remove the context ( such as: "it's inevitable, so when it arises look at it as an opportunity, not a threat"), and misinterpret it.

retrofuturist wrote:With regards to the second highlight, I was just curious as to your logic behind choosing only to highlight number five? You introduce the full quote by saying it's regarding "fabrication of one's meditation practice", but to me, point 1-9 all pertain to fabrication of one's meditation practice. Did you call out #5 because it seems to correlate with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "learn what works for you" mode of teaching, or is it something else?

Only because it was the one that most explicitly said "fabrication" ("recreate those conditions"). But of course, I agree. There's nothing particularly special about a Dhamma teacher talking about fabricating the path to liberation, since that's just what the Buddha said...

mikenz66 wrote:What you may be referring to is the usual statements from just about any Dhamma teacher you could name that whatever arises is an opportunity to learn, and expecting to only ever have pleasant experiences isn't helpful. You could probably pull like "pain is an opportunity to learn" from some Dhamma talk, remove the context ( such as: "it's inevitable, so when it arises look at it as an opportunity, not a threat"), and misinterpret it.

No... in whatever context I heard it from, it was definitely intentionally cultivated unpleasant vedana. I think it was by "crushing" (not literally) the legs, for the purpose of giving rise to stronger vedana which could be experienced and observed more vividly. Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything. Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.

mikenz66 wrote:What you may be referring to is the usual statements from just about any Dhamma teacher you could name that whatever arises is an opportunity to learn, and expecting to only ever have pleasant experiences isn't helpful. You could probably pull like "pain is an opportunity to learn" from some Dhamma talk, remove the context ( such as: "it's inevitable, so when it arises look at it as an opportunity, not a threat"), and misinterpret it.

No... in whatever context I heard it from, it was definitely intentionally cultivated unpleasant vedana. I think it was by "crushing" (not literally) the legs, for the purpose of giving rise to stronger vedana which could be experienced and observed more vividly. Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything. Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.

Thanks for the clarification on the other point.

Metta,Retro.

I have heard this also, but I think it was to do with misguided students rather than an actual practice recommended by the teacher.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

Mindfulness and Concentration Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, together with Right Effort, form the concentration-aggregate of the noble eightfold path. Although these factors are often discussed separately, the Pali discourses show that the Buddha meant for them to form a unified practice. This course through talks, readings, discussions, and meditation explored what these factors means and how they can be brought together in a mutually supportive and nourishing way.

You might like to work through the 30 minute guided meditation at the start if you want to see how his approach is implemented.

In talking about concentration he mentions that in the end one has to realise that even the most pleasant, concentrated, state is impermanent and should not be clung to (as mentioned in various suttas). His particular spin is that it is very powerful to realise that something that one is so attached to is impermanent and ultimately unsatisfactory. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.

In this way, the pursuit of happiness through developing strong concentration for the pursuit of total freedom is not a selfish thing. As long as your concentration is imbued with the other factors of the path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness — it's perfectly safe. They sometimes talk about getting stuck on concentration or becoming a concentration junkie, but those are cases where the concentration lacks the other elements of the path. Your understanding of why there's suffering in the world is skewed, or your understanding of why you're suffering is skewed. You spend all your time just focusing on your breath and not wanting to do anything for anyone else anywhere, not wanting to be bothered by the world.

This is especially important when really strong experiences come in the meditation. You don't jump to any conclusions. Again, you lift the mind above them and watch. Hopefully by that time the habit has become built-in enough so that you realize you can't allow yourself to get attached to anything, even the really amazing experiences. Lift yourself up rung by rung by rung along the ladder. You go from one attachment to a higher one to a higher one. Finally, though, there comes a point where you have to let go and just watch what happens. Only when you've developed this habit of lifting the mind up can you get through some of these experiences that waylay everyone else along the meditation path.

If you have extraordinary experiences, please make it a point to note and label them. Be clearly aware that rapture, faith, tranquility and so forth are no more than mental states. If, while noting them, you realize that you are attached to them, cut the attachment immediately and return your attention to the primary object at the abdomen. Only then will your progress continue, and it will bring you even sweeter fruit.

Meditation teachers have to be tactful in dealing with students who are in this stage of practice. The students are so excited by their experiences that they tend to rebel if the teacher is too deflating. Instead, one might gently say, “Your practice is not bad. These are natural things which arise in practice, but there are many other experiences which are much better than what you have now. So why don’t you note all these things so you can experience the better ones?”

Paying heed to these instructions, the yogi returns to sitting and carefully notes the lights, faith, rapture, happiness, tranquility and comfort. It dawns on him or her that this simple noting actually is the correct path of practice. Thus oriented, he or she can proceed with great confidence.

retrofuturist wrote: Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything.

It will be interesting to see the actuial statement and the actual context.

Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.

One does not need to deliberately manufacture pain to watch. The mind/body process does that all by itself without any need to add to it. Just sit unmoving for even a few minutes to see what arises.

Is it possible that it is Sunlun Sayadaw to whom Retro is referring to as regards cultivating painful sensations.As you say, you do not have to physically manufacture pain, one can manufacture pain with inappropriate attention & view.

Ven Thanissaro has some very useful ways of viewing these topics and I got some good reminders of various things that are always good to have reminders about...

The way he describes meditation seems to me pretty much the same idea as the "primary object" concept that the Mahasi approach, and most "vipassana" teachers, use:

There’s no one-size-fits-all kind of meditation. Breath meditationcomes the closest to a universal object because, after all, we all have abreath, and for all of us it’s an important part of our lives. Ajaan Leerecommends taking it as your home base. It’s the safest of allmeditation objects. But there are times when you need to foragearound in other areas. You may find yourself way off in left field andhave to find your way back to home base.

One thing I've not heard Ven Thanissaro discuss in detail is walking meditation. Are there any talks/writings where he discusses that? I mention this because I find that walking is excellent for discerning intention, which is a key component of the "fashioning" that he emphasises in many places.

As he says in the talk, with walking it's easier to see certain types of movements of the mind because you are making grosser decisions than when sitting:

The other reason why it's important to develop this ability to stay centered in the midst of activity, is that while you're doing walking meditation, you begin to observe how the mind slips out. It's often the case that you gain insight into the movements of the mind a lot more easily while you're walking than while you're sitting, because when you're sitting, everything is supposed to be totally still. You don't have to pay attention to anything else at all. You can clamp down on everything and get very, very centered, very, very still. But while you're walking, you still have to watch; you still have to move; there are decisions to be made even in the simple matter of walking. Where you're going to place your eyes, where you're going to step, noticing how close you are to the end of the path: simple things, but they're movements of the mind. And when the mind moves that way, it's easy for other intentions to sneak into the movement to divert it to their own ends. If you're not careful, they'll pull you away. But if you get used to looking for them, you gain a sense of how the mind tends to flow out.

I found this essay helpfull, i also find it relevent to the aim of the OP.

De-perception "After all, you're not meditating to get to the breath. You're meditating to understand the processes leading to suffering so that you can put an end to them. The way you relate to your perceptions is part of these processes, so that's what you want to see. You have to treat your experience of the breath, not as an end in itself, but as a tool for understanding the role of perception in creating suffering and stress."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/deperception.html

Thanks everyone for this thread, i found it very helpfull.

sp

"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reapMaranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"

Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.

Re: ENERGY. The notion of the breath as energy is extremely optimistic. When scientists started thinking in terms of energy and not just "matter", the scientific world bloomed with new discoveries. As with the breath. When we think of it as energy, we are adopting a realistic attitude about breathing, and the discoveries start to blossom. GoodwillDaniel

danieLion wrote:Thanissaro has also noted that although we think of breathing as involuntary, under analysis, we come to see it as all voluntary. He also claimes that the cessation of breathing is the hallmark of fourth jhana.

So, if I hold my breath I have attained 4th jhana? Is breath voluntary? Well, yes and no, but I would suggest if one thinks the answer is only yes, then spend a few minutes under water without any breathing apparatus.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<-- Proverbs 26:12