Anderzander,I don't know that there is too much actual, real, meaningful debate as to the skill level of Yang Cheng Fu. There are those who like to denigrate people who will always say that "so and so's skill level was not up to that of his brother/father/uncle fred/aunt mildred/cousin zeke/various and assorted monkeys, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. However Yang Cheng Fu's bonafides have been established beyond anyone who is reasonables doubts. I could carry on about his accomplishments, but we've listed them here over and over again on this forum so if you're really interested fish around a bit and look 'em up.

If YCF watered down, filtered out or lost any skills, I'd be greatly amazed. The training given via his son and great-grandson, that we are receiving today, is the first indication that someone out there is most definitely NOT hiding anything from us and is genuinely teaching, in a very quiet, purposeful manner, what I've heard referred to as the "real deal".I think those of us fortunate enough to be training with the certified Yang Cheng Fu Centers under the guidance of Grand Master Yang Zhen Duo and Master Yang Jun are the luckiest Tai Chi Chuan practicioners in the world. These guys don't blow sunshine up your wazoo and tell tall tales of daring do by some Master of the past or great uncle of renown to beguile all of us into complacency, they are instead moving forward and teaching at a consistent, even pace in the best possible way they know how.Yang Cheng Fu did something that no other past Master had yet done. He standardized the system of teaching that had been handed down to him piecemeal by his predecessors. He took the teachings of his family, that I'm sure came down to him one bit at a time, a piece here, a bit there, and he put it all together into what he, with his many years of training and hands on experience, felt was the best possible way for future generations of students to learn the art he was the lineage holder of. He taught this method to so many people, so well, that his name is still spoken of to this day in the martial circles world wide. His students and sons have gone on to continue training their students and sons in this same manner. Selflessly and with great patience for the snarky masses who find it necessary to denigrate what they cannot understand, these sons of YCF have been doing this for longer than I've been alive and they have passed that attitude, skill and transmission style on down to the current lineage holder of the Yang family name. He, in turn, has gone on to establish the Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Centers, mandated levels of training to teach at these Centers, and is still moving forward with the plan his great-grandfather came up with long before he was born.It's working.

Does one need push hands to learn martial apps? Absolutely not. Does one need push hands to learn the real meaning of Tai Chi Chuan, martial, health, all of it? Absolutely. One can be an excellent martial artist, and still have no idea what push hands even is. So "necessary". No. An excellent training tool to help you learn the real meaning of TCC?Without a doubt.How do I know this? Because Yang Cheng Fu, Yang Sau Chung, Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo, Yang Zhen Guo and Yang Jun all have said, and continue to say, it is.That's good enough for me. One day, I may understand why. Right now though, all I need to know is that the guys who already know why say it's so.Again, that's good enough for me and it should be good enough for anyone with common sense.How many of these guys who go around saying snarky things about Yang Cheng Fu's skill level have ever squared off with the man? That's about how many I thought. None. So until they can put someone in front of me who has crossed hands with Yang Cheng Fu and beaten him, with documentation to prove it, I'm not too interested in what their assessment of his skill level might be.I'll just keep doing as our Grand Master and Master Yang Jun tell me to do. And I will continue to do so even if, by some miracle, someone with the authority to do so puts the word "Master" in front of my name. Because these guys were Masters of TCC LONG before I was a gleam in my daddies eye, or anyone else alive in this world today for that matter. Their families made sure they got the whole transmission, and now they are being kind enough to teach that to the rest of us.Let the nay sayers say what they will. Who cares? For my part, I will listen to the guys whose lives have been dedicated to passing on this art to the rest of us.

Certainly there are a few people who have come from his line who have reached very high levels.

Anderzander (edited 10-06-2005).][/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This proves YCF was a good teacher.His ways of teaching make me one of the beneficiaries. His slow, soft, subtle, and empty...teaching takes learners' patience, enthusiam, respect, perseverance. good judgemetn and clear mind. But the market is caotic. It really needs a good judgement to choose a qualified teacher. Then we work hard on our own.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:<B>Anderzander,I don't know that there is too much actual, real, meaningful debate as to the skill level of Yang Cheng Fu. There are those who like to denigrate people who will always say that "so and so's skill level was not up to that of his brother/father/uncle fred/aunt mildred/cousin zeke/various and assorted monkeys, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. However Yang Cheng Fu's bonafides have been established beyond anyone who is reasonables doubts.

Bob</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with 99% of what you say Bob, but Cousin Zeke IS better than YCF...

;> )

My own 2 cents worth on the original topic is that one does need push hands to learn the martial applications of Tai Chi if you wish to use them in a Tai Chi fashion, rather than in an external way. Before I started training in Tai Chi I fancied myself as a reasonably competent external stylist; after pushing hands with a Tai Chi instructor I realised I couldn't even stand on my own two feet properly. If it does absolutely nothing else for me in the future, push hands has made me see that rooting and centering are very real skills and that I haven't got them...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Wandering Brit:<B> I agree with 99% of what you say Bob, but Cousin Zeke IS better than YCF...

;> )

My own 2 cents worth on the original topic is that one does need push hands to learn the martial applications of Tai Chi if you wish to use them in a Tai Chi fashion, rather than in an external way. Before I started training in Tai Chi I fancied myself as a reasonably competent external stylist; after pushing hands with a Tai Chi instructor I realised I couldn't even stand on my own two feet properly. If it does absolutely nothing else for me in the future, push hands has made me see that rooting and centering are very real skills and that I haven't got them...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by artyeo:<B> you have to down load it use freshdownload, flesh get,ants or any otherright click save target as</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but I still dont have feed backIs this true or bull shit?can a good master do thisthrowing somebody without touching themIf body contect I agree....but....?????

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by artyeo:<B> yes but I still dont have feed backIs this true or bull shit?can a good master do thisthrowing somebody without touching them</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

mmm, think about what is evolved and then think what really needs to happen before answering. The correct answer should have been that no there are only a few that ever reach this level. Some examples are on the net. there really is no real explanation that will explain it or how it works, that would come across well in written word. Its only though direct contact with people either working towards this level or with someone who has reached it before the explanations would really make any sense.

(Does one need push hands to learn martial apps.?)

no, but if one wishes to understand what is meant by taiji and how it is applied to a group of arts that come to embody this idea and are called taiji you can not understand it with out it.

I wonder what he would say of other masters from different lines of the yang family who can do this?

Or of the stories told about things that are representative of this type of skill with out showing the actual skill used.

its just a higher level of skill very uncommon even in china. i have felt this and know of people that can do it. for me its not a question of weather its real or not.nor is it a question of weather it was used in the yang line or not. i think there are many examples of sticking and following that show this type of skill being used in the yang family.

maybe as you say its not a traditionl skill but something that differnt people have come across at differnt times.