Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 16, 2018 19:32:44 GMT -6

Angel-Corlux great stuff man, though what I worry is that Iga is too humble to proudly move forward with this like he deserves to. The separation of Igavania from Metroidvania shouldn't just be because of a licensing thing or because he's "not worthy to be associated with a legendary game like that", which is something I recall hearing him say. This is his thing.

IGA's CV games are more about being open, exploring and collecting things. Almost what you'd say is a 2D side-scrolling RPG collect-a-thon.

I wouldn't go so far as to place collecting as one of the most important aspects of an IGAvania. Collecting all the items/armor/weapons etc. is more of an afterthought to me--

Heh, well if it was just items/armor/weapons then maybe, but you've played Aria/Dawn right? Those games especially, and this one too, focus on collecting things as a core mechanic, souls and shards. It's a huge system. What's more on top of that, we're gathering crafting materials too which means even more categories of stuff than we're used to.

Not only are these gameplay mechanics tied explicitly to "collecting stuff", but it's a large part of its enjoyment too. The games are all about finding new things: what does this shard do? What does shard #192 do? I have to find out! get get get get

So I mean, it might not be one of the most important aspects to you as a player, but in design and in general, it definitely is. We're going to have a bunch of collectible wearables that we can actually see on Miriam this time around, too, and best believe that's going to be a huge draw for most people to grab up those. I mean darn, collecting just straight up "map percentage" is a thing for these games - partially because you want to get and see all the stuff.

Pure Miriam I'd say that's really close yeah. I would just not downplay the difficulty -that- much, it still takes some game skill to deal with things. You might have to acquire it only just within Bloodstained, but it's not a casual "hold right and mash" by any means and I wouldn't want to give that impression. Also, "gameplay and overall experience" are just as important for Igavania, too. Plot is a bonus, and it sounds like we've got a great one this time around, but gameplay and very much "overall experience" is big - the atmosphere and memories of discovery are big. Many things could be under the umbrella of "fun", though.

Post by Redogan on Jan 16, 2018 20:40:38 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard I wasn't thinking of the shards. Yeah, I can see people collecting those for sure (even if it is just to see what each shard does--useful or otherwise). Same goes for the crafting materials.

Me personally...I'm not into collecting the fashion wearable stuff. I mean, I want it to look cool and all, but I'm not going to spend hours hunting down a rare drop for the looks.

I have Aria and Dawn in my collection. I did collect all of the souls in Aria, but it wasn't for the sake of collecting stuff. I collected them only because of the Chaos Ring for NG+ (dat Red Minotaur spam). If that item wasn't there, I definitely wouldn't have hunted down all of those souls. And if I hadn't collected all those souls, it would have still been a great IGAvania game. And that is my point. IGAvania games do not require collection quests to be in IGA's genre.

I also did not collect all of the furniture in Harmony of Dissonance. Great side quest for those who love to collect, but far from a requirement to be an IGAvania.

My wife is all about the collection quests. She maxed out the clock in SotN getting every familiar up to max level and getting every drop from every enemy. It's just a personal preference I suppose. As always, I'll leave it to IGA to decide on what goes into the game.

It's interesting to see all of the different aspects of IGA's games that people are so passionate about. Most interesting topic I've read in a while for sure.

Post by cecil-kain on Jan 16, 2018 21:13:36 GMT -6

IGAVANIA (n): A gothic, exploration-focused action platformer, designed by one of the godfathers of the genre!

The term "IGAvania" was created to help Igarashi establish and build his brand.

While it's true the "Metroidvania" genre has evolved under a variety of indie developers,Bloodstained is a Metroidvania game as the fanbase has always defined it.

Personally, I like the term "IGAvania" because it helps make a clear distinction between the classic and the modern Metroidvanias.Bloodstained and Mirror of Fate are both Metroidvanias, but Bloodstained is an IGAvania and Mirror of Fate is NOT.

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 16, 2018 22:31:38 GMT -6

I have Aria and Dawn in my collection. I did collect all of the souls in Aria, but it wasn't for the sake of collecting stuff. I collected them only because of the Chaos Ring for NG+ (dat Red Minotaur spam). If that item wasn't there, I definitely wouldn't have hunted down all of those souls. And if I hadn't collected all those souls, it would have still been a great IGAvania game. And that is my point. IGAvania games do not require collection quests to be in IGA's genre.

It's not so much a matter of it being required or something you should/have to do for the sake of "beacuse you like collecting", I mean it's built into what you're already doing. Whether you collected all of those for the Chaos Ring or just because you felt like it, it means that the gameplay regardless revolved around collecting things despite what your reasons may/may not have been.

That's what I'm saying - it's not that "makes you want to collect a lot of stuff" is the inherent feature of the Igavania games because that's indeed subjective, but rather "you have to collect a lot of stuff" as just a byproduct of getting everything else done. The collection of souls/shards is integral to the design not just because of compulsively gathering them, but just a component of normal progression. "Getting a lot of stuff" is a feature that plays into the overall gameplay of it.

Post by Pure Miriam on Jan 17, 2018 0:24:36 GMT -6

I believe the main difference between Metroidvania and Igavania would be the necessary player's skills. IGA said countless times that for him, a game must be fun and enjoyable to beat and that meant making it "light" and "slow-paced". I'm not saying Igavanias are easy, i'm saying they are crafted around the idea where a casual player can beat them. IGA said once, in a interview, that one of the best moments of his life in Symphony of the Night was when he got a message of a married woman that never played games before, had a system just for the hell of it, saw SOTN being sold and bought it because she thought the artwork was beautiful. She tried to play it and after some tries, she was able to beat the game and loved it.That's one of the main reasons of why he does those games. He said it before, that he wants anyone capable of playing a game, to be able to beat his games with some effort. So, maybe, it's not that IGA games are easier to beat. They are easy to learn.

I consider Igavania and Metroidvania the same genre, but i call" IGAVANIA" if the game was created, directed or with some involvement of Koji Igarashi OR the game closely follows his path on "Metroidvania Gothic game" style.

Post by Overlord on Jan 17, 2018 1:42:48 GMT -6

I've seen quite a few games called a "Metroidvania" without blocking or combos, so I don't think those aspects are part of the equation. I definitely agree that none of them are like the Castlevania games though. Once I noticed that games were starting to get labeled as "Metroidvanias", I was very interested, since I obviously like Castlevania, and by that time it had been too long since Order of Ecclesia had been released. I've liked basically all of the games I've tried, with Guacamelee probably being my favorite, but none of them really felt like Castlevania. Quite a few of them feel like Metroid, however. I'd say a large part of that is down to the weapon system. In Castlevania, you have so many different weapons, you have different types of weapons, and you can find them through different methods, like synthesizing or as a drop from an enemy. For me, that adds a huge amount of value to the game. So I still hope that we see some games that have more "vania" than "Metroid".

Post by PCTrax on Jan 17, 2018 4:32:26 GMT -6

I would define Metroidvania as a genre of game; the requirements being:

1. Being a platformer.2. Large, interconnected map.3. Backtracking.4. Progression system of some sort. (Levels/Item Upgrades/Unlocks)5. Bosses.6. Secrets. (Anything not mandatory to complete the game)7. Two-dimensional side scroller.8. A term often used by the Darksouls community (Shortcut Porn). A way to quickly travel around the map.

Beyond that this genre could be sub-divided.

Pretty much what I would list as well. Also I would like to add -> 9. Has a great soundtrack.IGAvania: All of what's listed, but made by Koji Igarashi.

Post by gemebisu on Jan 17, 2018 8:47:43 GMT -6

Jan 15, 2018 21:09:07 GMT -6 purifyweirdsoul said: a combo system, blocking, etc. That's not what it is. However, that is certainly what "Metroidvania" has mostly become in the indie space, which is all more very Metroid to me.

Hi guys, husband showed me this thread and I just had to jump in because I feel you're missing something very important in your discussion about "Metroidvania" games, and that is that Metroid does not meet your own criteria for what makes a "Metroidvania" game! I recently played Metroid: Samus Returns to 100%, and am a long-term fan of pretty much all Metroid games, including the Prime series. These games do not feature combo systems, blocking, EXP-based progression, or branching skill trees with non-linear character progression. Metroid games have large worlds to explore with plenty of back-tracking and freedom to approach things however you like, but the player character unlocks new abilities in a strictly linear path - you can attempt various things BEFORE you have the upgrades, but you can't survive in a lava filled room without the Varia suit upgrade etc. Doors are sealed with force fields that need the appropriate weapon, and you cannot progress without that weapon.

Another point I feel has been missed is that defining "Metroidvanias" as being 2D platformers completely excludes the Metroid: Prime series from being classed as a "Metroidvania" game, and I would argue that all 3 of those games are more "Metroidvania" than FPS. And what about Metroid: Other M? I couldn't stand the narrative but I enjoyed the game, and that was a 2.5D platformer.

Finally, the thing I really want to say is, when you said that "Metroidvania has mostly become...very Metroid" you are wrong. What I believe you meant to say, is that it is not so much like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night LIKE YOU WANT IT TO BE and is instead playing with other tropes within the genre that you do not like so much. These elements are not from Metroid. I'm not really acquainted with Castlevania tbh, my husband is a backer and a long-term fan (which is why he showed me this!), so I can't speak as to whether these elements are from other Castlevania games or from different places entirely.

Oh, and I also don't think that "IGAvania" is a different genre. Your basic argument for that seems to be that the difficulty curve is different, and it's a more relaxing experience in general. Personally, I find the Metroid games relaxing, and I don't see anything to exclude Metroid from your list of what makes a game an IGAvania over a Metroidvania. I understand this is a place for fans of IGA, and you want to celebrate his work because you love it, but that doesn't mean it deserves its own genre! I think what should define a game as being an IGAvania over being a Metroidvania, is that it is made by IGA. I understand that you want to be able to point to bits of your favourite games and say that they must be down to IGA's design, but these elements exist in other games as well, and you cannot retroactively take credit for these elements being in other games on his behalf.

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 17, 2018 9:36:58 GMT -6

A Metroid game is a Metroid game and not a Metroidvania to me, and I was operating under that understanding. The term only came to exist with Symphony and lies with RPG type system games. When I used the line "all more very Metroid to me", that was fairly vague/off and I was keeping things short, sorry about that.. What I mean to say is that the inclusion of those elements is more suited to the speed and pacing of something closer to Metroid than something closer to RPG side-scroller Castlevania. Something such as Samus Returns having the parry mechanic. It fits there, it could fit in a Metroidvania, but I think it would ill suit an Igavania game.

I'm sorry you took this as a negative towards Metroid. I think that mostly covers it, but I'll probably respond to more of your points later, I'm not in a good spot right now.

Also, we have a first post approval process and that's the only reason why your guest posts didn't show up earlier. We do allow guest posting, the mods just have to approve the first ones because of spam problems.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 17, 2018 10:41:43 GMT -6

gemebisu I think Angel-Corlux said it best with "ultimately in the realm of subjective opinion". I agree with all of your points. My stance remains unchanged: "They went with "IGAvania" to show it's a Metroidvania by IGA. It's Metroidvania without the Metroid part... so it's Castlevania as defined by the SotN style, which IGA helped create."

Super Metroid did it first. IGA claims that the changes to the Castlevania play style was not influenced by Metroid, but Zelda! Hard to believe, but hey he was part of it. I'm not sure when people started using the word Metroidvania, but it's certainly subjective.

I hope you decide to give Bloodstained a play. Local co-op will be a feature. I hope you and your husband can enjoy it together. Do we know him? Welcome to the forum and we hope you stick around.

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 17, 2018 14:39:13 GMT -6

Jan 15, 2018 21:09:07 GMT -6 purifyweirdsoul said: a combo system, blocking, etc. That's not what it is. However, that is certainly what "Metroidvania" has mostly become in the indie space, which is all more very Metroid to me.

Finally, the thing I really want to say is, when you said that "Metroidvania has mostly become...very Metroid" you are wrong. What I believe you meant to say, is that it is not so much like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night LIKE YOU WANT IT TO BE and is instead playing with other tropes within the genre that you do not like so much. These elements are not from Metroid. I'm not really acquainted with Castlevania tbh, my husband is a backer and a long-term fan (which is why he showed me this!), so I can't speak as to whether these elements are from other Castlevania games or from different places entirely.

Oh, and I also don't think that "IGAvania" is a different genre. Your basic argument for that seems to be that the difficulty curve is different, and it's a more relaxing experience in general. Personally, I find the Metroid games relaxing, and I don't see anything to exclude Metroid from your list of what makes a game an IGAvania over a Metroidvania. I understand this is a place for fans of IGA, and you want to celebrate his work because you love it, but that doesn't mean it deserves its own genre! I think what should define a game as being an IGAvania over being a Metroidvania, is that it is made by IGA. I understand that you want to be able to point to bits of your favourite games and say that they must be down to IGA's design, but these elements exist in other games as well, and you cannot retroactively take credit for these elements being in other games on his behalf.

Okay, so to add or to emphasize, I'm not retroactively talking about Metroid games and this affecting them in any way. Conversely, and this might help me illustrate, we haven't gone back and call old Castlevania games "Metroidvanias" because they're definitely not. I'm focusing only specifically on what "Metroidvania" has come to mean in the indie space and how separate/apart they have drifted from what we now can look at and say is "Igavania". This is the timeline of progression to me:

Metroid 1, 2, Super, etc: Metroid gamesCastlevania 1, 3, 4, Rondo, etc: Castlevania games (later coming to be known as Classicvania)Castlevania 2: A weird and obtuse game that most people didn't like, we called it "Castlevania" but knew it wasn't really the smae thing as the others. We most certainly did not call it "Metroidvania" by any memory that I have or heardMSX Vampire Killer: Most people scarcely know this game exists, so the establishment and fame of the genre wasn't really here. I think I showed it to Mike last year

Then moving on to more current times:

Symphony of the Night: A game that seems to mix what we'd come to know as Castlevania with Metroid, hence...okay, Metroidvania!IGA makes a bunch of games after this: Still MetroidvaniasMetroid Prime, Fusion, etc: Still Metroid gamesCastlevania Chronicles, The Adventure ReBirth, DXC: Still just Castlevania (Classicvanias)

Now, jumping ahead a bit and to where things got confusing for me and necessitated this discussion for me:

Guacamelee, Rogue Legacy, Ori, even Indivisible, Strider 2014, Dead Cells, Slain!, Dust, Dark Souls apparently, Valdis Story, and on and on, anything that has a few elements or wants to be associated with this boom, or has at least been associated with the genre by its fans from recognition of said elements: "Metroidvanias" (Imagine the "aliens" guy holding up his hands here)

It's come to mean less and less as time goes on, I'm feeling, to where it's a catch-all malleable trend for indie games. The problem for me is that none of them are all much anything like -vania at all while many of them do have several of the Metroid aspects, some of which you gave and I too pointed out as differences (more linear progression, hard locks vs soft locks, fewer weapons but with emphasized combat).

So, I really didn't want this to be about me me me and what I want. I can see how it comes off that way and how I'm a deluded fan and too deep into what I'm looking for, but I hope you can understand more of what I mean now. This shouldn't be taken as an affront to Metroid games. And I think there may be some perceived undertones of me being bad at games because I like the "easiness" and "relaxing" of Iga games, but rest assured that's not the story. The only games I really devote myself to lately are Souls and competitive fighting games. And Igavania, once it finally exists again.

Post by Time 4 Tea on Jan 17, 2018 15:17:35 GMT -6

What a great thread! If I could "thumb up" an entire thread, I would do so.

As for the topic itself: exploration, action platforming and collecting are all key parts of the formula. That said I like it when the item I collect has a visible purpose. Although I love Metroid/Igavania games as a genre, I'm less into collect-a-thon type of games such as Yooka-Laylee where you are collecting for the sake of collecting (I'm not putting the genre down, it's just not my cup of tea). There is a fair bit of overlap between the two genres but most people know very quickly what separates one from the other.

Post by Cale on Jan 17, 2018 16:11:36 GMT -6

I love Metroid games! I still think Super Metroid is in the top 10 games of all time. I agree with purifyweirdshard , I think of Metroid games as just that, and not Metroidvania. The same can be said for classic Castlevania games. I see them as more of an action platformer. Both styles have aspects I love, so thats why I love Metroidvanias. As for being an IGAvania, the only thing separating it from Metroidvania, to me, is the creator. No matter the genre, they all have amazing music, fantastic gameplay, and tons of replay value.

Edit: Also, gemebisu, welcome to the Army of the Night! Nice to have you, love your enthusiasm and insight!

Post by gemebisu on Jan 17, 2018 17:32:15 GMT -6

OK, sorry I've not replied yet, life is kinda busy...btw XombieMike my husband is m0nkf15h, he is reading this thread but decided he didn't want to open this can of worms, he just kinda pointed me towards it and has been laughing at my reactions...

I honestly don't understand. I'm trying really hard, but I don't get why you are saying that Metroid games, even Super Metroid, one of the games that defined the genre of "metroidvania" isn't a metroidvania. I get the feeling you aren't looking at Metroid games objectively, because as I said before, they meet your criteria to be classed as such, you just seem to think they don't. From this viewpoint, it looks like you are essentially redefining the genre to mean "games that look and feel like SotN". I mean, purifyweirdshard, you explicitly mention Rogue: Legacy as being a modern day Metroidvania... That game has procedural generation of the environments, it cannot meet your own criteria for what makes a Metroidvania, because apparently that has all kinds of beautiful design touches, but a game that uses procedural generation in the map design cannot have that level of care in the design. There are massive inconsistencies in how you are applying your defining criteria, frankly, it seems really arbitrary. Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, and you are free to define the games however you like, but your "timeline of progression" - I disagree strongly. I do feel that maybe you are rather set in your ways of thinking, perhaps you should give Metroid: Zero Missions a try?

It strikes me that following what you say purifyweirdshard, only Castlevania games fall under Metroidvania, but not Metroid games. I think you could benefit from reconsidering how you think about this.

Post by XombieMike on Jan 17, 2018 18:10:09 GMT -6

gemebisu I'm not sure if you read my response in the intended tone of me agreeing with you and reinforcing your points.

As for those like my good friend purify, I can understand the differences that make IGA's games in particular have a certain feel, but I don't think mixing a certain set of game mechanics together can really carve out yet another niche genre. IGA's games feel different for sure, but if Axiom Verge made 10 games, I'm sure they would have their feel down. If Guacamelee made 10 games, same thing. Creators just have a certain way of staying within what makes them unique while still innovating. By definition I think a genre would encompass all Metroidvanias together, including IGAvanias.

Post by purifyweirdshard on Jan 17, 2018 18:11:04 GMT -6

gemebisu woah you're still misunderstanding me here. That huge list of games I gave was an illustration of the problem of how the gaming community at large defines "Metroidvania" and not me, how it's come to mean like anything and at the same time nothing. That's the opposite of what I'm about here. It's one of the main reasons I made the thread, to point this out as an issue. I use words like "apparently" and "even" there to drive that point some more.

Let me put this a different way, soLonger ago, Metroid is a thing. Castlevania is a thing. In 1997, SotN put them together and now we have Metroid-vania.SotN existing doesn't make Super Metroid a Metroidvania from my viewpoint here, it remains a Metroid game like it always was.

I'm actually more giving Metroid its due and raising it up than putting it down. A Castlevania game came later that seemingly borrowed (some would say stole) its ideas and progression, so I would think it's not even attractive to the purist to add a -vania to its classification. It's pre-combination of the two franchises. It stands on its own. It is one half (actually more like 3/4s or so) the originator of the combination, not the combination itself.

XombieMike I don't know if you really get what I'm going at either here heh

Post by XombieMike on Jan 17, 2018 18:17:59 GMT -6

I guess not, lol. I thought you were trying to point out that IGAvania is it's own separate genre. I can appreciate the term IGAvania as I described in my first response, but to say an IGAvania isn't a Metroidvania just goes against the common language of the masses.

Aztec: I don’t visit the Discord but I want to ask if we have any confirmation about the Ayami Kojima box art and the backer exclusive slip cover coming with my physical game day and date or is that coming also later? I realize the design is secret but when?May 24, 2019 17:34:35 GMT -6

Aztec: Also we’re supposed to get another update next Thursday, yes?May 24, 2019 17:35:04 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: The Discord has been a mad house since yesterday, with random folks giving incorrect answers to things, so I'll just tell you here: the slipcase yes, but the Kojima stuff no.May 24, 2019 17:48:12 GMT -6

purifyweirdshard: It's been a while since I heard that specifically asked about and its answer so I'm not 100% sure on the slipcase, but definitely the Kojima art is in a later shipment with the other rewards.May 24, 2019 17:48:38 GMT -6

Galamoth: Though we are still getting another update next Thursday, right?May 24, 2019 19:32:12 GMT -6

Arsenical: *drinks * the game i have been waiting for such a long time is only a few weeks away from me. i am so excited. im sure other peoples here share that excitement so lets read the new threads. . . . . . . oh.May 24, 2019 21:14:53 GMT -6

Arsenical: meh! who cares! i will still enjoy the shiz out of this game and my name will be on the credits. not only that but now i will be able to enjoy full content even if i lose my backer edition so yeah either way i win. *drinks more *May 24, 2019 21:19:43 GMT -6

Arsenical: but am i the only one who thinks that the idea of the steelcases was terrible? why get 3rd party items involved in your project? people is greedy and will whine about it if they dont get it for free! or did i miss something here?May 24, 2019 21:22:37 GMT -6

roguedragon05: Does anyone know if Bloodstained will be at E3 at all this year?May 24, 2019 21:58:44 GMT -6

Aztec: Thanks @purifyweirdshard for the answers. I’m bummed about no Kojima art. That would’ve made for some excellent PR before the game came out. I wish they could show it off even if they physical prints were shipping later but oh wellMay 24, 2019 23:57:01 GMT -6