I really feel like this project was rushed and the final product could have been delayed while putting in a little extra effort to make the game have more depth and features. If I were to invest in a contract build I would make sure it was not a dud. I am not saying I am an expert in pinball manufacturing and yes I do not have a clue of how difficult the process is, but at the same time I am detail oriented and this machine simply would not be high enough quality for me to be affiliated with or invest in. I know the Pinball Company stated that they tried to get the price down to a more reasonable price (pricing that would justify the simple featureless layout) but were unable to because of licensing fees, etc. Sorry but I am calling bs on this one. Here is my guesstimate on Pinball Companies new contract build investment...

Cost to build and develop 300 units from Spooky=$1,000,000 or $ 3333.00 per unit
Licensing fee for Jetsons (thirty year old franchise with little relevance in today's society) $50,000-$70,000K-Mabye
Now let's do the math on sales pricing:
First 100 at $5900=$590,000
Second 100 at $6499=$649,900
Third 100 at $6999=$699,900
For a grand total of $1,939,800
less cost of build=$1,070,000
Total estimated profit for Pinball Company=$869,800 not too shabby

I understand this is another greedy money grab situation and it reminds me of Stern selling a $5200 Batman66 for $15,000. Yes this machine is not for pinsiders but it is for a greedy pinball distributor to take advantage of noobies and weak minded homeowners who don't know what they are actually buying. I feel like this is taking advantage of specific cliental(new pinball machine owners) and yes it may help get more people into the hobby, but at what cost? Do you need to bend people over just because they are ignorant or new to the hobby? Sorry if I offended anyone, but to me this is just another greedy attempt to capitalize on the resurgence of pinball. Stay classy

I really feel like this project was rushed and the final product could have been delayed while putting in a little extra effort to make the game have more depth and features. If I were to invest in a contract build I would make sure it was not a dud. I am not saying I am an expert in pinball manufacturing and yes I do not have a clue of how difficult the process is, but at the same time I am detail oriented and this machine simply would not be high enough quality for me to be affiliated with or invest in. I know the Pinball Company stated that they tried to get the price down to a more reasonable price (pricing that would justify the simple featureless layout) but were unable to because of licensing fees, etc. Sorry but I am calling bs on this one. Here is my guesstimate on Pinball Companies new contract build investment...
Cost to build and develop 300 units from Spooky=$1,000,000 or $ 3333.00 per unit
Licensing fee for Jetsons (thirty year old franchise with little relevance in today's society) $50,000-$70,000K-Mabye
Now let's do the math on sales pricing:
First 100 at $5900=$590,000
Second 100 at $6499=$649,900
Third 100 at $6999=$699,900
For a grand total of $1,939,800
less cost of build=$1,070,000
Total estimated profit for Pinball Company=$869,800 not too shabby
I understand this is another greedy money grab situation and it reminds me of Stern selling a $5200 Batman66 for $15,000. Yes this machine is not for pinsiders but it is for a greedy pinball distributor to take advantage of noobies and weak minded homeowners who don't know what they are actually buying. I feel like this is taking advantage of specific cliental(new pinball machine owners) and yes it may help get more people into the hobby, but at what cost? Do you need to bend people over just because they are ignorant or new to the hobby? Sorry if I offended anyone, but to me this is just another greedy attempt to capitalize on the resurgence of pinball. Stay classy

If they sell out, I'm not sure you can say they were "greedy". So you expect a business, especially one that isn't a pinball manufacturer and is doing this for the first time, to voluntarily take less profit "for the good of the hobby"? If your numbers are off, and they can't sell 100 machines - there's something to also be said of the risk factor that a business takes. And this would be a big risk on something like this - I don't hear anyone saying this is a slam dunk. Business is business for one reason - to make money. I seriously doubt you would walk into your employer's office and voluntarily say you don't want to make as much money because you feel it's too much.

Take more time to develop and add features that justify the pricing while still maintaining a healthy profit margin. I never said they should volunteer or do it for free, it is an investment. The question is what is an acceptable price for what you are actually getting and what is an acceptable profit margin to manufacture and invest?

And yes they will sell out because they are only making 300, and pricing structure is what I consider to be "greedy". Again sorry if I offended anyone.

Yes exactly
Take more time to develop and add features that justify the pricing while still maintaining a healthy profit margin. I never said they should volunteer or do it for free, it is an investment. The question is what is an acceptable price for what you are actually getting and what is an acceptable profit margin to manufacture and invest?
And yes they will sell out because they are only making 300, and pricing structure is what I consider to be "greedy". Again sorry if offended anyone.

I don't think it's greed. The pin will either sell or it won't. My personal thoughts are that I think it may be tough to sell 100 games at the $7K price point but I don't know TPC's customer base. If the game doesn't sell well they can always drop the price later on down the line.

You don't know the Pinball Company. As stated several times in this thread their cliental is mainly homeowners and new hobbyist and their pricing structure is typically bordering on high retail pricing. They will sell all of them with little effort. I estimate 100 pinsiders (not noobies) will buy one just for the theme, etc. or just to have one. I commend the Pinball Company on a good investment with a good rate of return.

On another note it is interesting that they are still trying to find toys or something to add onto the machine. Even if it is a prototype, why announce or show pictures of a sparse machine?

I really respect that Pinball Company has chosen Back Alley Creations to work with.

Sorry but I am calling bs on this one. Here is my guesstimate on Pinball Companies new contract build investment...
Cost to build and develop 300 units from Spooky=$1,000,000 or $ 3333.00 per unit
Licensing fee for Jetsons (thirty year old franchise with little relevance in today's society) $50,000-$70,000K-Mabye
Now let's do the math on sales pricing:
First 100 at $5900=$590,000
Second 100 at $6499=$649,900
Third 100 at $6999=$699,900
For a grand total of $1,939,800
less cost of build=$1,070,000
Total estimated profit for Pinball Company=$869,800 not too shabby

These completely made-up and based upon absolutely nothing numbers are SHOCKING to me!!!!

Unless someone else can come up with their own made up numbers based upon nothing, I'm taking this dude's side here. Without another imaginary bill of materials to refute this one, IT'S GREED PEOPLE!!! Just look at the numbers!!!

When is the unveiling of this game? Will it be unveiled at The Pinball Company or at a pinball show in the near future?

They'd have to be idiots to reveal this game at a pinball show. Why in God's name would they do that, given the expected and inevitable response from a bunch of people they aren't trying to sell this to anyway?

These completely made-up and based upon absolutely nothing numbers are SHOCKING to me!!!!
Unless someone else can come up with their own made up numbers based upon nothing, I'm taking this dude's side here. Without another imaginary bill of materials to refute this one, IT'S GREED PEOPLE!!! Just look at the numbers!!!

Here is my guesstimate on Pinball Companies new contract build investment...
Cost to build and develop 300 units from Spooky=$1,000,000 or $ 3333.00 per unit
Licensing fee for Jetsons (thirty year old franchise with little relevance in today's society) $50,000-$70,000K-Mabye

You are not far off. Let me help you...

Cost to build is actually going to be close to $3800 per machine after adding toys and finishing touches. The license cost for 300 machines is in your range (good guess). Assuming an average selling price (1/2 at wholesale and 1/2 at retail) of $5875 and that 1/2 of the customers will pay by credit card, that takes another $27,000 in credit card fees. We also have advertising costs and warranty costs. The total return of the project is a roughly $400,000 over 4 years if it is successful. Keep in mind, we have been paying out money for R&D and license fees for 2 years already.

If you want to put up $500,000 of your money to build a pinball machine and sell it with no profit, that's your choice.
If you want to buy the machine but think the price is too high, call us to work out a trade or cash price like many other Pinsiders do.

As for why 300 machines? It is all that we can reasonably get built before the license expires. By then, they will all be sold to happy buyers.

Calling someone greedy suggests they are being selfish with their choices and that's just rude. I have a tough skin and like who I am as a person, so it really doesn't bother me that you think I'm greedy. I did this project for all the families that call me wanting something for the kids to play and their feedback means the most to me. I would love to sell the machine for much less, but it wasn't in the cards.

Props to you for not pushing the credit card fees to the customers. I just had to eat a 3% fee tacked onto a NIB game. I don't blame the company for adding that fee because their margins are tiny as it is, but as a customer it still feels crappy.

I would love to see this game do well and the professionalism shown in your responses in top notch.

I keep seeing a spaceship (on a spring mechanism) above the pop bumpers that jiggles when you are in there. My idea of a toy worthy of a wow factor when playing.

That small type of interactivity, even it only moved when you nudged the game (no coil) , would bring the perceived value of this game in line with the price. There are many other possibilities, this is my thought , as an example.

Does that type of mechanism (or other basic interactive toy) break the budget , so to speak.?

Can you elaborate on what we will see in regards to toys on the playfield?

These completely made-up and based upon absolutely nothing numbers are SHOCKING to me!!!!
Unless someone else can come up with their own made up numbers based upon nothing, I'm taking this dude's side here. Without another imaginary bill of materials to refute this one, IT'S GREED PEOPLE!!! Just look at the numbers!!!

And those shocking numbers show a potential for loss greater than the potential for gain.

People who complain that PBC/Stern/JJP/whoever are greedy clearly have no clue. It's the right of the person taking the risk to charge whatever they want. And your right as a consumer to buy or not buy. It's almost like many of you feel pinball is a "public service". Are you aware that a great percentage of business ventures fail with the risk taker losing their money, their investtment, often their house or marriages. Go build and sell your own pinball machine. I can't wait to sit on the sidelines and chastise your "greeeeeeeed"

You are not far off. Let me help you...
Cost to build is actually going to be close to $3800 per machine after adding toys and finishing touches. The license cost for 300 machines is in your range (good guess). Assuming an average selling price (1/2 at wholesale and 1/2 at retail) of $5875 and that 1/2 of the customers will pay by credit card, that takes another $27,000 in credit card fees. We also have advertising costs and warranty costs. The total return of the project is a roughly $400,000 over 4 years if it is successful. Keep in mind, we have been paying out money for R&D and license fees for 2 years already.
If you want to put up $500,000 of your money to build a pinball machine and sell it with no profit, that's your choice.
If you want to buy the machine but think the price is too high, call us to work out a trade or cash price like many other Pinsiders do.
As for why 300 machines? It is all that we can reasonably get built before the license expires. By then, they will all be sold to happy buyers.
Calling someone greedy suggests they are being selfish with their choices and that's just rude. I have a tough skin and like who I am as a person, so it really doesn't bother me that you think I'm greedy. I did this project for all the families that call me wanting something for the kids to play and their feedback means the most to me. I would love to sell the machine for much less, but it wasn't in the cards.
NIC

Thank you Nic for posting this. and Thnnk you for all you are doing for pinball.

Yes hence my term guesstimate.
I don't know shit nor do I say I do. It is all speculation and good for conversation. It can't all be about unicorns and rainbows on pinside all day, that would be boring.

You are not far off. Let me help you...
Cost to build is actually going to be close to $3800 per machine after adding toys and finishing touches. The license cost for 300 machines is in your range (good guess). Assuming an average selling price (1/2 at wholesale and 1/2 at retail) of $5875 and that 1/2 of the customers will pay by credit card, that takes another $27,000 in credit card fees. We also have advertising costs and warranty costs. The total return of the project is a roughly $400,000 over 4 years if it is successful. Keep in mind, we have been paying out money for R&D and license fees for 2 years already.
If you want to put up $500,000 of your money to build a pinball machine and sell it with no profit, that's your choice.
If you want to buy the machine but think the price is too high, call us to work out a trade or cash price like many other Pinsiders do.
As for why 300 machines? It is all that we can reasonably get built before the license expires. By then, they will all be sold to happy buyers.
Calling someone greedy suggests they are being selfish with their choices and that's just rude. I have a tough skin and like who I am as a person, so it really doesn't bother me that you think I'm greedy. I did this project for all the families that call me wanting something for the kids to play and their feedback means the most to me. I would love to sell the machine for much less, but it wasn't in the cards.
NIC

thanks for sharing some real numbers. Rare that we get to hear stuff like this. Good luck in your venture and I hope it works out well for you! We need more people with the capital willing to take the risk while also supporting spooky. I admire your desire to do what you love and put your money behind it to try and grow your business.

Thanks for posting here Nic.
I would love to see this game do well and the professionalism shown in your responses in top notch.
I keep seeing a spaceship (on a spring mechanism) above the pop bumpers that jiggles when you are in there. My idea of a toy worthy of a wow factor when playing.
That small type of interactivity, even it only moved when you nudged the game (no coil) , would bring the perceived value of this game in line with the price. There are many other possibilities, this is my thought , as an example.
Does that type of mechanism (or other basic interactive toy) break the budget , so to speak.?
Can you elaborate on what we will see in regards to toys on the playfield?

Yes, the toys will impress you. I'm just hoping WB approves them and then we can show them off!

Thank you Nic. Awesome work.
The nay Sayers should go away and not buy it then. 300 will go fast.
This game screams for side blades in cabinet. Would love for that to be secured before license expires. I gladly pay more for them.
Shaker motor? Would also be simple improvement.

Thank you Nic. Awesome work.
The nay Sayers should go away and not buy it then. 300 will go fast.
This game screams for side blades in cabinet. Would love for that to be secured before license expires. I gladly pay more for them.
Shaker motor? Would also be simple improvement.

Awesome!
I've already emailed. I was in before side bladz and toys. In fact, my email was sent 30 min after facebook post Sunday.
Very stoked and Happy to buy one. What's really awesome at this household my wife is on board. Made my week!

You are not far off. Let me help you...
Cost to build is actually going to be close to $3800 per machine after adding toys and finishing touches. The license cost for 300 machines is in your range (good guess). Assuming an average selling price (1/2 at wholesale and 1/2 at retail) of $5875 and that 1/2 of the customers will pay by credit card, that takes another $27,000 in credit card fees. We also have advertising costs and warranty costs. The total return of the project is a roughly $400,000 over 4 years if it is successful. Keep in mind, we have been paying out money for R&D and license fees for 2 years already.
If you want to put up $500,000 of your money to build a pinball machine and sell it with no profit, that's your choice.
If you want to buy the machine but think the price is too high, call us to work out a trade or cash price like many other Pinsiders do.
As for why 300 machines? It is all that we can reasonably get built before the license expires. By then, they will all be sold to happy buyers.
Calling someone greedy suggests they are being selfish with their choices and that's just rude. I have a tough skin and like who I am as a person, so it really doesn't bother me that you think I'm greedy. I did this project for all the families that call me wanting something for the kids to play and their feedback means the most to me. I would love to sell the machine for much less, but it wasn't in the cards.
NIC

thanks for your openness and I think you are doing a good job at helping us to understand.

I am may or may not be a potential buyer. My question is, what type of rules will be involved? Is there a framework such that a skilled player can still be challenged at the same time having enough front end fun for lower level players?

I'd give PotC as an example where there are maybe 4 tasks to complete (aside from ancillary tasks like x many pop bumper hits, or hit the stand up targets one time each.). But aside from 4 tasks, being able to stack modes of multiply jackpots (such as combo rewards) that would bring an advanced player higher points.

So it's easy to get started, but to get all the real tasks completed takes a bit of skill and would be rewarded with a full blown wizard mode that would be rewarding to a skilled player.

I am not against the layout (maybe similar to Avatar without the toys) but if the rules are good, and considering a game like WNJM sells for $5k, I think this would have some good value as a novelty and rare machine so long as it's got acceptable rules for a more advanced player.

You are not far off. Let me help you...
Cost to build is actually going to be close to $3800 per machine after adding toys and finishing touches. The license cost for 300 machines is in your range (good guess). Assuming an average selling price (1/2 at wholesale and 1/2 at retail) of $5875 and that 1/2 of the customers will pay by credit card, that takes another $27,000 in credit card fees. We also have advertising costs and warranty costs. The total return of the project is a roughly $400,000 over 4 years if it is successful. Keep in mind, we have been paying out money for R&D and license fees for 2 years already.

Awesome post again Nic. As Whysnow said, it's not everyday that a company/manufacturer jumps on here with transparency and shares actual figures.

And offering trades or a "cash price" for those who want one and don't agree with the actual price is just another cork for the few "endless mouths" on here. It's not a theme I'm interested in, but I'm considering getting one now for my four year old who already loves pinball or to put at my store, just to support your company.

just a further point (IMO) to me having one of 300 pins (total) is more valuable than having a SLE or LE version of BM66 which is just about meh to me, since if successful I'd just as soon have a pro/premium.

I realize that 60 SLE and 240 LE are the same as 300 Jetsons but then you factor in an unlimited pro versions.

My question is, what type of rules will be involved? Is there a framework such that a skilled player can still be challenged at the same time having enough front end fun for lower level players?

I wanted the rules and layout to be simple, but by all accounts it is super fast and will keep you wanting more. I think it will be enough game for most pinball players. I can't wait for more and more people to play it and give their feedback!

I wanted the rules and layout to be simple, but by all accounts it is super fast and will keep you wanting more. I think it will be enough game for most pinball players. I can't wait for more and more people to play it and give their feedback!

thanks,

I am trying to understand. Example, PotC is very simple, I could explain it on the back of a napkin (if I wrote small) IM also quite simple but there is extra nuances if you want to play more smartly than simply just lighting all the inserts..

Do you know for example will it have Wizard modes, multi balls, and maybe feature adjustments like a real pinball machine which can be tweaked as needed?

This Nic guy is amazingly professional. That's a breath of fresh air in this industry. He is winning my respect. While the game is too simplistic for me at that price, the rules may just make this game if done correctly. IM is simple, but it's tough as nails and really fights you with the magnets, kickback, and greedy outlanes. I don't think we have that here...and that game was $4k when released, but I guess you never know.

Do you know for example will it have Wizard modes, multi balls, and maybe feature adjustments like a real pinball machine which can be tweaked as needed?
also, is the price including shipping?

Yes, it has multiball modes and a wizard mode. I'm not sure what adjustments can be made to the features as I do not have a game here to play with yet. Shipping is not included in the price, but it can be picked up at Spooky or The Pinball Company.

I wanted the rules and layout to be simple, but by all accounts it is super fast and will keep you wanting more. I think it will be enough game for most pinball players. I can't wait for more and more people to play it and give their feedback!

Rules work for what the lay out is. BUT, if people truly hate them, I have no problem rewriting the rules.

Collecting all characters starts orbit city MB. Rinse repeat by collecting the characters while in multiball, using the newton ball to collect jackpots.

Lanes above pops grant a mystery award, and multiply end of ball bonus.

Left scoop 3 times to "lock" balls, then shoot spacely captive to start cogs vs spacely. Shoot left scoop a couple time to release the captive ball. shoot captive to activate jackpots, collected from newton ball.

Right spinner will be a super spinner type scoring .. spinning it up to advance the points. Score may be related to how many characters are collected.

eep opp ork activates when you beat cogs and orbit city. This will be a take on collecting XX about of switch hits.

Then there's Jet Screamer.. Activates, when eep op ork, orbit city and cogs have all been beaten. Rules not fleshed out yet, but you may be force to collect X amount of random characters, locking them in the captive, then releasing with jackpots shots.

Another take on jet screamer would be to collect 2 or more characters again.. using left scoop or right captive(most likely) to start mode. Depending on how many characters you collected before starting, determines your jackpot amounts.

Rules work for what the lay out is. BUT, if people truly hate them, I have no problem rewriting the rules.
Rules are as follows
You have to collect all the characters. Outer orbit (orbitty), targets(george), pops(rosi), loop back(elroy), spinner (left astro), ramp(judy), Jane(lower lanes)
Collecting all characters starts orbit city MB. Rinse repeat by collecting the characters while in multiball, using the newton ball to collect jackpots.
Lanes above pops grant a mystery award, and multiply end of ball bonus.
Left scoop 3 times to "lock" balls, then shoot spacely captive to start cogs vs spacely. Shoot left scoop a couple time to release the captive ball. shoot captive to activate jackpots, collected from newton ball.
Right spinner will be a super spinner type scoring .. spinning it up to advance the points. Score may be related to how many characters are collected.
eep opp ork activates when you beat cogs and orbit city. This will be a take on collecting XX about of switch hits.
Then there's Jet Screamer.. Activates, when eep op ork, orbit city and cogs have all been beaten. Rules not fleshed out yet, but you may be force to collect X amount of random characters, locking them in the captive, then releasing with jackpots shots.
Another take on jet screamer would be to collect 2 or more characters again.. using left scoop or right captive(most likely) to start mode. Depending on how many characters you collected before starting, determines your jackpot amounts.

I really feel like this project was rushed and the final product could have been delayed while putting in a little extra effort to make the game have more depth and features. If I were to invest in a contract build I would make sure it was not a dud. I am not saying I am an expert in pinball manufacturing and yes I do not have a clue of how difficult the process is, but at the same time I am detail oriented and this machine simply would not be high enough quality for me to be affiliated with or invest in. I know the Pinball Company stated that they tried to get the price down to a more reasonable price (pricing that would justify the simple featureless layout) but were unable to because of licensing fees, etc. Sorry but I am calling bs on this one. Here is my guesstimate on Pinball Companies new contract build investment...
Cost to build and develop 300 units from Spooky=$1,000,000 or $ 3333.00 per unit
Licensing fee for Jetsons (thirty year old franchise with little relevance in today's society) $50,000-$70,000K-Mabye
Now let's do the math on sales pricing:
First 100 at $5900=$590,000
Second 100 at $6499=$649,900
Third 100 at $6999=$699,900
For a grand total of $1,939,800
less cost of build=$1,070,000
Total estimated profit for Pinball Company=$869,800 not too shabby
I understand this is another greedy money grab situation and it reminds me of Stern selling a $5200 Batman66 for $15,000. Yes this machine is not for pinsiders but it is for a greedy pinball distributor to take advantage of noobies and weak minded homeowners who don't know what they are actually buying. I feel like this is taking advantage of specific cliental(new pinball machine owners) and yes it may help get more people into the hobby, but at what cost? Do you need to bend people over just because they are ignorant or new to the hobby? Sorry if I offended anyone, but to me this is just another greedy attempt to capitalize on the resurgence of pinball. Stay classy

This seems pretty typical of the complainers here on pinside. Nic did a good job of adding in some of the other costs that were so blatantly left out in your analysis that effect the bottom-line. I just hope that a higher average of people with some intelligence can figure out that some numbers posted by a keyboard commando are not the be all, end all. Anyone that's been in this hobby if they spend a half second thinking about it can figure out there are a TON more costs that go into not only building a game but the entire product lifecycle. All of these costs eat away at that "not too shabby" BS number you through up there. Just think how much money is lost every time there is a quality issue, or something damaged in transit, or some moron that fries a board installing a mod and the pinball company pays for it to keep a good reputation. This doesn't even pull into the equation the legal fees associated with the license and their company in general, salaries for customer support and the other many functions required to run a company - - all overhead, all of which adds up very, very fast.

With that said, I'm sure a lot of us think the game is priced a little high. So be it. If that's what The Pinball Company thinks they need to be successful, let them charge it. It's their business after all and they will either succeed or fail.

For all the other haters out there pointing out what STERN pro's go for and what they offer up (as well as the home edition models) keep in mind the massive pricing breaks on volume - - 1000's of games vs. 100's of games has an exponential factor on BOM costs.

Surprised they are listening to Pinside and the complaints and adding some little things. It was stated that this pin was being made for the pinball company and its retail customers that really dont care about toys, rules and price as much? Its great they are adding some things but will it really make a big enough difference to change the type of buyers? I guess will see but my guess is the changes wont be big enough for most of the people on here to be buyers unless your adding deep rules, another ramp and at least 1 interactive toy. That's what the majority on here seem to want and i doubt that kind of stuff will be added. Cant wait to see the finished product and gameplay and thax for more pins spooky and pinball company.

What's that matter ?why try to please people on here as we apparently weren't the type of buyers they were going after or at least that what was stated..... ? People on here wont ever be happy lol no matter what you do so they sld just stick to what they were originally going for....

NOTE:
This game isn't for pinside. This is for a market The Pinball Company feels they have a need for. Family friendly simple games for rec-room buyers with kids. This is NOT meant to be an "A" title.
ALSO NOTE:
Also this is not Spooky #3 -- this is a contract game for The Pinball Company.
You can now proceed to do what pinside does.

If this is the case why change things bc people on here didnt like it?

If this is the case why change things bc people on here didnt like it?

I get your point, but since everyone on here is a total pinball genius (don't ya know), it is a good place to bounce ideas around. if you can filter out 97% of everything said...which is why other companies don't hang out around here.

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