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Starting a measure on the root is not a bad thing, but for more variety you can try mixing it up a little and use a chord tone other than the root. For example start measure 2 on the G which is a chord tone in CMaj7 as I did above.

... for walking bass lines, the feel is really soooooo (and most) important! which is to say, you can get by with very very simple lines (roots and fifths only) *IF* they have a good feel to them. so, for a c major 7 chord, it's sufficient to play (as quarter notes) C G C G (and focus on the feel).

as you get comfortable with roots and fifths they can be connected with scale tones. so with 1 bar of C major 7 and another bar of G7, (as quarter notes) something like | C D E F | G F E D | will get you a lot of mileage especially and particularly if played with a really good feel.

another easy device is keep roots and fifths on beats 1 and 3 and approach them on beats 2 and 4 from a half-step above or below). walking bass lines USUALLY (but not always - it depends on your taste) sound best when they're very low - the bottom end of the piano - and very soft.

my opinion is dave mckenna is the absolute apex of walking bass line technique at the piano.

depending on your taste you might prefer him to mckenna. either way, they're both great.

listening to bassists and emulating their feel can be really helpful. israel crosby (with ahmad jamal) and wilbur ware (w/thelonious monk or sonny rollins) are great models as are paul chambers and ron carter and ray brown. but there are a million other great out there as well! (if you like someone's feel or overall approach, well, that's the one to learn from).

listening to organists and the feel they get is another great source. my preference is larry young. the FEEL of his softly as a morning sunrise

maybe the best way to learn how to play walking bass lines is, well, don't hire a bassist for the gig!. or convince whoever is doing the hiring that a bass player isn't needed!) ... that may or may not be true .... but it's the experience of walking bass lines and doing it to support a vocalist or a tenor player or guitar that builds ability.

Your left hand becomes a simple melody that you improvise. It's very difficult improvising both hands at the same time, so focusing solely on the LH for a few months or so will be helpful.

Compose, write down basslines on paper. Do 1/2 a dozen or so. That will free the way you think about bass line.

After you've composed a few, start improvising on 2-5-1 in all keys if possible. If time is limited, then focus on the more common keys. All 12 major keys, but maybe only 6 minor keys.

Dave Frank breaks it down into steps towards the end of the lesson. How to practice. Follow those steps.

When you get to improvising both lines at the same time, start really really slow, around 72 or whatever is comfortable, and for a little while, just start introducing 1/2 notes, 1/4 notes and finally short 8th notes lines.

Playing with your own bass line is extremely liberating because you are no longer at the mercy of a drummer or a bass player who does not play the feel you want. You become in complete control.

knotty and i are talking a bout the exact same thing. and that's a great video he's posted. so i'll just amplify that FEEL is the essence. once you have the feel, all else will follow. it's easy to get caught up in "gotta have a good melody" and "need variety" and "there's gotta be more than roots and fifths! .. but in the end, if you're playing swinging bass lines that have a great feel that's what your listener and the other musicians with whom you're playing will hear.. i don't tend to extremes, at least i hope i don't. but in this particular case, well, i am being extreme! get the feel and all else will follow!

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Nice posts people @ Dave Frank walking bassline clinic, seen it twice, was very useful (like all Dave Frank's stuff). I really like his walking bass playing. As I remember Dave had lessons from Tristano and btw I like Tristano's style a lot. But at the point where I'm at, Tristano's solo's and chords are still magic for me.. don't know exactly what he's doing lol but sounds awesome.. many block chords and chromatic chord going on as far as I can hear.

About the feel. Feel is something really hard to practice. I have to say, when I have more "walking bass" options I swing a lot more.. but maybe it's just more the enjoyment of variation. I like the prof players a lot but it seems I don't know how to put the feeling into my walking bass lines.

Another thing:This is what frustrates me a lot since I started with Jazz (and please mind I'm still a beginner):Let's say I can play walking bassline, I can play chords in original position (with bass) or rootless, I can jump from bass to rootless chords, I can do some arpeggio, block chords, tritone sub... but somehow I don't know what to do with a standard exactly. When I watch or hear others play it's all flowing nice, but sometimes hard to follow what they are doing exactly.

Do you guys just pick a standard and experiment and than "remember" how you like to play it? Or is there a certain pattern that will always work. When you have a total new standard how to approach it to make it work as solo piano.

Do you guys just pick a standard and experiment and than "remember" how you like to play it? Or is there a certain pattern that will always work. When you have a total new standard how to approach it to make it work as solo piano.

Hi Lost WoodsIt's great that you are wanting to learn how to improvise over standards. As you correctly imply, improvising is actually a lot of hard practice and work. Even though I am sharing my approach, I don't think it will work for everyone as it is torturous and obsessive-compulsive. But it does ensure you know a new standard intimately.

1. Sing along phrase by phrase of a professional recording you like. If you like, you can transpose certain phrases into other keys.2. Analyse the standard globally e.g. determine the key(s) for each section3. Analyse the standard locally e.g. determine the scales and arps for each bar4. Learn the roots by making a melody of the roots.5. Learn the head in another 3 keys.6. Do a composition.7. Improvise* using small chunks and then larger and larger chunks.8. Learn how to solo over another key9. Sing along phrase by phrase of a professional recording which you don't particularly like, one which will stretch you and challenge you towards another direction. Transpose a section into another key.

* What strikes you about this standard ? e.g. the downward arps, the ascending chromatics, the jaggedness.Use this shape as the basis for your whole improv. Develop this theme across the different keys of the standard.

It is a problem when we watch great players like Tristano or Oscar Peterson and feel discouraged. That's why we need the help of a teacher. And that's why we need to practice very small things that get us towards that goal. A good teacher can tell you what you need to practice first.

The feel is something you will develop over time if you organize your practice around several areal including technique, ear and just plain shedding.

Keep in mind that walking bass lines are not a beginner thing. It's an advanced topic. Unless your right hand is already quite free to play with great feel, I would not add a bass line, I would stick to block chords in the LH played as whole notes on beat 1. I would avoid the so called "Charleston Rhythm" in the LH altogether unless, again, your RH is free to swing and flow. At that point, the LH can act as support to the right.

Alternatively, you can practice the LH alone, so you can totally focus on it.

You watch the great players and think they naturally have total independent control of both hands, but it's something that they worked very hard at. So go easy on yourself.

When you say that you have the arpeggios, you need to have them in a Jazz context, not so much a classical one.

Again, it is really hard to give advice without hearing where you are. Then you just get a bunch of nonsense from me and others, stuff that doesn't really apply.

There are many very talented teachers who will teach you over Skype. Several people have dedicated their lives to the development of a jazz curriculum. These are the teachers I would recommend. Ornette Coleman might be a great player, but I would not choose him as a teacher, if you see what I mean.

Thank you printer.I'm pleased you told me to study Lennie Tristano, Paul Bley, and Herbie Hancock. I didn't like them initially but now after studying them, I've totally changed my mind.That's why I will now always include Step 9 in my routine.Are there any other players that you recommend for me ?

CA .. your step 9 - the way you're going about that and sticking with it is basically amazing. other pianists to listen to .... well, there are all the "usual" suspects .... but two who maybe don't get as much notice as they should are herbie nichols and phineas newborn. larry young (organ) is another great player. but, really, there are SO many fabulous pianists! george shearing for the absolutely gorgeous unworldly tone he created at the piano. cecil taylor as a pianist/percussionist! who's the first pianist who captured your attention? who do you recommend as someone not to miss?

CA .. your step 9 - the way you're going about that and sticking with it is basically amazing. other pianists to listen to .... well, there are all the "usual" suspects .... but two who maybe don't get as much notice as they should are herbie nichols and phineas newborn. larry young (organ) is another great player. but, really, there are SO many fabulous pianists! george shearing for the absolutely gorgeous unworldly tone he created at the piano. cecil taylor as a pianist/percussionist! who's the first pianist who captured your attention? who do you recommend as someone not to miss?

Hey PrintsThanks for your encouragement and the Phineas Newborn suggestion. I look forward to starting Daahoud next week - amazing intro, head, solo - I will have Transcribe on 15% speed.

The first pianist suspects hehe to capture my attention were KJ then Bill. Then soon after Jacky Terrasson - in particular I like his early improvs on standards e.g. Nardis and his recent originals e.g. Gaux Girl, My Church.

One of my favorite soloists is Sonny Rollins. What do you think of his improv on the bridge of God Bless The Child ? I am literally decades away from playing anywhere like this, especially:- his use of thematic improv, imperfect imitation, rhythmic displacement- his tone; how do you emulate that on an instrument with a decaying tone ?

>>One of my favorite soloists is Sonny Rollins. What do you think of his improv on the bridge of God Bless The Child ? I am literally decades away from playing anywhere like this, especially:Well no worries, he is a few decades older than you are Cus!

Hey PrintsThanks for your encouragement and the Phineas Newborn suggestion. I look forward to starting Daahoud next week - amazing intro, head, solo - I will have Transcribe on 15% speed.

i forgot about his daahuod. 15% sounds about right! ... and something else great to do with transcribe is use it as a play along tool ... you're probably doing that already. my guess is phrasing w/ PN at 15% ... and slowly speeding up as you would be reeeaaaallly interesting.

Originally Posted By: custard apple

The first pianist suspects hehe to capture my attention were KJ then Bill. Then soon after Jacky Terrasson - in particular I like his early improvs on standards e.g. Nardis and his recent originals e.g. Gaux Girl, My Church.

... there are a trio recording of BE with Philly Joe Jones in I think late 1959. The interplay between them == pretty much beyond words ... i have a feeling you know that recording . i need to check out JT. I'm bugged because KJ was just in London and tix sold about in about 10 minutes or so!

Originally Posted By: custard apple

One of my favorite soloists is Sonny Rollins. What do you think of his improv on the bridge of God Bless The Child ? I am literally decades away from playing anywhere like this, especially:- his use of thematic improv, imperfect imitation, rhythmic displacement- his tone; how do you emulate that on an instrument with a decaying tone ?

i never listened much to that particular track ... (so back to spotify i go ...:)

many consider his "live at the vanguard" (with elvin jones and wilbur ware) as a definition of jazz for exactly what you've said (thematic improv, imperfect imitation, rhythmic displacement.) ... fred hersch has a great softly as a morning sunrise where he quotes from sonny rollins' vanguard recording.

emulating rollins' tone at the piano. one approach is play very softly. because that'll give you a greater dynamic range within which to work. so in relation to everything else louder notes will seem to last longer.

you can probably conjure magic playing along with rollins (with transcribe at a slow tempo) and in doing that just capture as much nuance as you can from his phrasing. the thing is, there's A LOT of nuance in his phrasing - it's possible you'll find that getting rhythms and attacks and imitating slides into notes really accurately will take away the need to imitate sustained tone.

... you might check out Ran Blake who's a really different (seriously different) jazz pianist than just about everyone else. his strength is playing with amazing dynamics and with unworldly pedal technique to shade what he's playing. you might find it interesting to see if there's something in his approach you can apply ....

of course, bach and chopin (and really any great keyboard composer) has music that's worth playing as a way to develop your own approach to phrasing and shading melodies. but if you had to go to a desert island w/ONLY two composers those two are probably worth considering as the "suspects."

Hey PrintsThanks for your encouragement and the Phineas Newborn suggestion. I look forward to starting Daahoud next week - amazing intro, head, solo - I will have Transcribe on 15% speed.

i forgot about his daahuod. 15% sounds about right! ... and something else great to do with transcribe is use it as a play along tool ... you're probably doing that already. my guess is phrasing w/ PN at 15% ... and slowly speeding up as you would be reeeaaaallly interesting.

Originally Posted By: custard apple

The first pianist suspects hehe to capture my attention were KJ then Bill. Then soon after Jacky Terrasson - in particular I like his early improvs on standards e.g. Nardis and his recent originals e.g. Gaux Girl, My Church.

... there are a trio recording of BE with Philly Joe Jones in I think late 1959. The interplay between them == pretty much beyond words ... i have a feeling you know that recording . i need to check out JT. I'm bugged because KJ was just in London and tix sold about in about 10 minutes or so!

Originally Posted By: custard apple

One of my favorite soloists is Sonny Rollins. What do you think of his improv on the bridge of God Bless The Child ? I am literally decades away from playing anywhere like this, especially:- his use of thematic improv, imperfect imitation, rhythmic displacement- his tone; how do you emulate that on an instrument with a decaying tone ?

i never listened much to that particular track ... (so back to spotify i go ...:)

many consider his "live at the vanguard" (with elvin jones and wilbur ware) as a definition of jazz for exactly what you've said (thematic improv, imperfect imitation, rhythmic displacement.) ... fred hersch has a great softly as a morning sunrise where he quotes from sonny rollins' vanguard recording.

emulating rollins' tone at the piano. one approach is play very softly. because that'll give you a greater dynamic range within which to work. so in relation to everything else louder notes will seem to last longer.

you can probably conjure magic playing along with rollins (with transcribe at a slow tempo) and in doing that just capture as much nuance as you can from his phrasing. the thing is, there's A LOT of nuance in his phrasing - it's possible you'll find that getting rhythms and attacks and imitating slides into notes really accurately will take away the need to imitate sustained tone.

... you might check out Ran Blake who's a really different (seriously different) jazz pianist than just about everyone else. his strength is playing with amazing dynamics and with unworldly pedal technique to shade what he's playing. you might find it interesting to see if there's something in his approach you can apply ....

of course, bach and chopin (and really any great keyboard composer) has music that's worth playing as a way to develop your own approach to phrasing and shading melodies. but if you had to go to a desert island w/ONLY two composers those two are probably worth considering as the "suspects."

hope this helps ...

Thanks Prints for visiting this Beginners forum to help people like myself with your great insight.

Phineas' Daahoud: Actually I hadn't thought of using Transcribe as a play-along. But from today I will incorporate it at the end of my singing routine, it should really test out my rhythm. Rhythm is my weakness and I am keen to improve it.Also it will test out my transposing into another key.

BE trio: You're right about Bill Evans, Philly Joe and Paul Chambers. I do know Green Dolphin St but not nearly as well as I should. As you say, the interplay is just too awesome.

Fred HerschI will put Softly on my list for next week when I'm moving onto new songs.

Sonny RollinsI really am looking forward to applying your suggestions when I eventually solo on a ballad.I think that soloing on ballads is currently out of my reach. It's so much more difficult than soloing on a mid-tempo or up-tempo tune, do you agree ?

Ran BlakeWoo! I just listened to his Ruby and it's exactly as you said about his dynamics, attack and pedal.

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Originally Posted By: custard apple

Hi Lost WoodsIt's great that you are wanting to learn how to improvise over standards. As you correctly imply, improvising is actually a lot of hard practice and work. Even though I am sharing my approach, I don't think it will work for everyone as it is torturous and obsessive-compulsive. But it does ensure you know a new standard intimately.

1. Sing along phrase by phrase of a professional recording you like. If you like, you can transpose certain phrases into other keys.2. Analyse the standard globally e.g. determine the key(s) for each section3. Analyse the standard locally e.g. determine the scales and arps for each bar4. Learn the roots by making a melody of the roots.5. Learn the head in another 3 keys.6. Do a composition.7. Improvise* using small chunks and then larger and larger chunks.8. Learn how to solo over another key9. Sing along phrase by phrase of a professional recording which you don't particularly like, one which will stretch you and challenge you towards another direction. Transpose a section into another key.

* What strikes you about this standard ? e.g. the downward arps, the ascending chromatics, the jaggedness.Use this shape as the basis for your whole improv. Develop this theme across the different keys of the standard.

Hey Custard Apple! Thx man really nice approach too really like it.

Now comes to mind... I had some thinking going on this other day about improvising. When you learn jazz, on yt/teacher etc. they teach you what you can use for improvising. Scales, chord tones, strong chord tones, upbeat/downbeat playing etcetera. But the essence of improv is playing the melody you come up with at the moment isn't it? I mean.. what is the use of knowing I can play an "a dorian" scale of an Amin7 chord and the important chord tones are C and G for example while in your head you don't think about chord tones or scales but just come up with a melody.

Is it purely to train your ear so you can hear new melody's in your head?

I find it very hard to improv with these sort of guidelines while my mind wants to create other melodys. You have these excersises like "use only 1,3,5 and 7 of the chord and improv over these". It feels like it doesn't "fit" my ear and mind.So isn't it much more important to do "ear-excersises" than basing on the scales/chordtones.. cause I struggle to play the melody in my head.. and I think that's because of I'm bad at "playing a melody by ear". And well, in the end the melody in your head is made up by chordtones and scales.

Nice question Lost Woods.I like the way Walt Weiskopf the saxophonist and jazz educator puts it. He says we should call it jazz playing rather than jazz improvisation as we spend so much time practising.

Yes you are right, you need a two-stream approach.

(i) Train your ear to hear great lines by studying many, many, many master recordings. This is called studying the language of jazz.

(ii) Know arps and scales back to front.

(iii) Eventually through a combination of (i) and (ii), you will have the confidence to play lines which you feel like playing because you hear the lines in your head. This might take a few to several years to achieve.Did you have a classical background ? You need to be patient in jazz, I believe it will take much longer than in classical to sound sensible.

So in other words:(i) Absorbing the language does take time.(ii) Keep on learning the theory (iii) As you play more and more, I suspect you will be less guided by theory and more guided by what is inside you. How long have you been learning jazz for ?

Thank you Knots. I've done it in really faint pencil and will scan it for you today.I can do these arrangements quite quickly as I've studied Andy LaVerne's chord substitutions book.But reharms still take me literally months.

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Originally Posted By: custard apple

(iii) As you play more and more, I suspect you will be less guided by theory and more guided by what is inside you. How long have you been learning jazz for ?

Thanks again for the reply!To answer the question: I started with pianolessons 2 years ago at age of 22 never had any in the past.. these lessons where a mix of classical, jazz an basic stuff you can think of. So although I have had lessons for two years I don't really have the feeling I've been learning jazz for two years.. (btw before that I knew nothing, - totally nothing - about jazz..) I just bassicaly got a bit of all kind of music and piano basics.

(iii) As you play more and more, I suspect you will be less guided by theory and more guided by what is inside you. How long have you been learning jazz for ?

Thanks again for the reply!To answer the question: I started with pianolessons 2 years ago at age of 22 never had any in the past.. these lessons where a mix of classical, jazz an basic stuff you can think of. So although I have had lessons for two years I don't really have the feeling I've been learning jazz for two years.. (btw before that I knew nothing, - totally nothing - about jazz..) I just bassicaly got a bit of all kind of music and piano basics.

Really like it, but if I'm right in the end it is really about arranging the standard yourself isn't it? Trying over and over again what to do in LH and RH. Actually it's sort of like composing.

EDIT: custard apple do you have a recording how you play autumn leaves?:D

Hey Lost WoodsI'm similar to you in that three years ago, I really didn't know anything about jazz.Is your goal to arrange or to improvise ?

If it is to arrange, you could try a ballad that you know really, really, really well.Yes you're right, you could say the Dave Frank video is about arranging, it's about composing RH and LH lines and making them blend into each other as voices.

If it is to improvise, I suggest you start off with an easy C major standard such as Take the A Train.ATTYA is difficult as the changes move quickly.Autumn Leaves is difficult in that it is in a minor key.

I haven't learnt Autumn Leaves. This is because I want to approach this one from the perspective of modes, I'm now learning some minor modes such as dorian.

However Knotty has a cool bop version of Autumn Leaves. Maybe you could ask him to share it with you ?

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Well Knotty... Do you happen to have an autumn leaves record online?About my goal: Well someway or the other I only like to listen to (mostly) jazz trio's. Jazz with a steady beat, bass. I don't really "dig" the ballad thing.. Of course the example from Dave Frank like "Bill Evans - A time for Love" sounds really great, but I listen lot more to bill evans trio.

What I do like is a ballad turning in to a walking bass piece and I think that's my "approach" for solo jazz piano. Intro the melody in ballad and go into walking bass. If you don't know what I mean this is a good example:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3yzH861MDY from 13:50.

I think it's just a preference of mine. This means that I'm not motivated (at all) to sit down and work out the ballad part. What I do like to do is work out walking bass lines, block chords etc.

You'd be foolish to listen to me. If you're looking for feel on how to play the melody to Autumn Leaves, check out these versions:

When you say Block Chords, you mean a la George Shearing? People will hate me for it, but I was never a big fan of Shearing. That said, he has an interesting Vid with Mary McPartland and Billy Taylor where he explains some of his approach. I personally do not like the style very much. Erroll Garner's block chords, however, this I dig of him ;-)

Shearing's technique however is absolutely spectacular, some of the very best.

If you can read decently, and have decent technique, there are books of just about anyone in just about any style. I still think that playing that from sheet will help you get the sound in your ear and in your fingers.

As far as improv, I am a big believer in the Dave Frank school. But if you have access to anyone who'd have studied with Charlie Banacos for a few years, he is likely to be a killer teacher.

If you cannot afford a teacher or do not want one, then you will need a lot of discipline and be able to not go from one topic to another too fast. Walking bass lines will take at least a couple of year of daily work to get halfway right. Besides jams and gigs, I generally play a single tune for about 6 weeks in a row. That's my way of digesting it. It's always tempting to read someone say "Learn countdown in 12 keys". But you just started A Train 3 weeks ago.

Resist!!

If you want to post something you played for feedback or ask specific questions about how to approach something, this is the right place.Often people give criticism in private messages.

Lost Woods
Full Member
Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 105
Loc: The Netherlands

Originally Posted By: knotty

Hey LW,

You'd be foolish to listen to me.

Well, actually I'm not really sure about that. I can for exmaple listen to Bill Evans, Keith Jarret play autumn leaves.. but sometimes I think it is better to listen to amateur players (I hope that doens't offend )too cause you can know exactly what's going on without having to analyse and transcribe for hours and hours (which I don't have time for).

Btw thanks. I knew the first one never heard the second. That's what I gotta work on too. I almost play the melody as it is in the real book. Adding a few notes and a different rythm but never like those profs can change the melody but it still is the melody if you know what I mean.

Quote:

When you say Block Chords, you mean a la George Shearing? People will hate me for it, but I was never a big fan of Shearing. That said, he has an interesting Vid with Mary McPartland and Billy Taylor where he explains some of his approach. I personally do not like the style very much. Erroll Garner's block chords, however, this I dig of him ;-)

Shearing's technique however is absolutely spectacular, some of the very best.

Yes I like the way Shearing uses his block chords Examples I like (same standard):

Quote:

If you can read decently, and have decent technique, there are books of just about anyone in just about any style. I still think that playing that from sheet will help you get the sound in your ear and in your fingers.

I have tried this but I'm not a good reader yet.. but did it with Misty (memorizing).. felt like I was studying a classical piece. In other words, wasn't really awear of the chord progressions etc. But that was in my first half year of piano lessons so maybe it's different now lol. Good tip thought gotta try some of those jazz-sheet stuff.

Quote:

As far as improv, I am a big believer in the Dave Frank school. But if you have access to anyone who'd have studied with Charlie Banacos for a few years, he is likely to be a killer teacher.

May I ask what the dave frank school approach is and how it differs from others?

Quote:

If you want to post something you played for feedback or ask specific questions about how to approach something, this is the right place.Often people give criticism in private messages.

Thanks maybe I'll post something this week if I can overcome my beginnersfright cause I've seen some nice things in these 100+ pages already

>>Well, actually I'm not really sure about that. I can for exmaple listen to Bill Evans, Keith Jarret play autumn leaves.. but sometimes I think it is better to listen to amateur players (I hope that doens't offend wink )too cause you can know exactly what's going on without having to analyse and transcribe for hours and hours (which I don't have time for).

If you try to transcribe and play what the masters do, then yes, it will take you forever. What you want to do is go for the feel. If Autumn Leaves is in the real book, it's probably written as 3 1/4 notes for the first 3 notes. But in my view, that would sound really lame. So you're better off getting the feel of the melody from these records. The melody is generally the same, and you can forget the embellishments, so one way, you learn it right, the other you learn it wrong. And when it comes down to feel and swing, it doesn't get a whole lot better than Wynton Kelly...

I don't really know of too many other methods.Classical teachers got it down because teaching has been fundamental since forever. Teachers vary but almost all classical teachers follow some sort of organized method and curriculum. Very few jazz teachers do, and in a way, that's too bad.

If you are pretty new to Jazz and want to jump into improv right away, then this might be a good class for you. It requires little investment :-)