Oh look. This tired and overused argument. Sure...so many people 'choose' PvP servers considering that the game is almost a decade old and people didn't even know what PvP was back then. Not to mention that many people simply want to play with their friends, which they had no options to do prior to the cross-realm features added in this expansion. Add to that the fact that it costs money to change servers annnd...yeah...your cliché is invalid. Just like it has been for about 7 years now.

i still think it's valid. People choose to play on the servers they want and accept the consequences of that decision. If the game has changed over 7 years you always have the option, the choice, to move or learn to adapt to fit with the server and choice you made.

i still think it's valid. People choose to play on the servers they want and accept the consequences of that decision. If the game has changed over 7 years you always have the option, the choice, to move or learn to adapt to fit with the server and choice you made.

Nothing in your statement validates the cliché. What it does show is a complete lack of understanding of possibilities in the situations, a reduction of the 'choice' into something binary, and that your bias affects how you see the situation. I mean..more power to that, but it's wrong. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Nothing in your statement validates the cliché. What it does show is a complete lack of understanding of possibilities in the situations, a reduction of the 'choice' into something binary, and that your bias affects how you see the situation. I mean..more power to that, but it's wrong. I don't really know what else to tell you.

well actually, its true. regardless of the situation a person was in, they chose to play on a PvP server. if they don't like it they have the option to transfer to a different server.

well actually, its true. regardless of the situation a person was in, they chose to play on a PvP server. if they don't like it they have the option to transfer to a different server.

That's not what is being challenged. No one is challenging the fact that you selected PvP when you created a character. I understand it's convenient to be patronizing to suit your view, but it's much more valuable to go beyond that.

Oh look. This tired and overused argument. Sure...so many people 'choose' PvP servers considering that the game is almost a decade old and people didn't even know what PvP was back then. Not to mention that many people simply want to play with their friends, which they had no options to do prior to the cross-realm features added in this expansion. Add to that the fact that it costs money to change servers annnd...yeah...your cliché is invalid. Just like it has been for about 7 years now.

Tired and overused due to it still making sense. Do they have a choice? Yes. They can either A) Accept that PvP happens on a PvP realm or they can B) transfer off.

Complaining about PvP happening on a PvP realm is like going into Burger King and complaining that they sell burgers.

Originally Posted by Kelimbror

the game is almost a decade old and people didn't even know what PvP was back then.

Tired and overused due to it still making sense. Do they have a choice? Yes. They can either A) Accept that PvP happens on a PvP realm or they can B) transfer off.

The choice isn't binary. Try to understand that before responding again. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Lime

Complaining about PvP happening on a PvP realm is like going into Burger King and complaining that they sell burgers.

Metaphor isn't remotely accurate, but you knew that when you typed it.

Originally Posted by Lime

Also, what are you even going on about?

You do realize many people had never played MMOs when WoW came out right? You also realize that many people got pulled in by their friends and just did whatever they told them so they could play together. Like...you do realize that there is more to this than on/off? No...you don't do you?

That's not what is being challenged. No one is challenging the fact that you selected PvP when you created a character. I understand it's convenient to be patronizing to suit your view, but it's much more valuable to go beyond that.

actually you are, you're saying that the argument of people saying "well you chose to play on a PvP" to people crying about being killed, is invalid, when its not.

actually you are, you're saying that the argument of people saying "well you chose to play on a PvP" to people crying about being killed, is invalid, when its not.

Nope. You are now ignoring the implications of the pro stance while continuing to reduce an argument to suit your view. That's a very simple and non engaging way to have discussion. Let me know when you'd like to actually discuss it. It doesn't look like we'll be crossing that bridge any time soon though, so good day.

Nope. You are now ignoring the implications of the pro stance while continuing to reduce an argument to suit your view. That's a very simple and non engaging way to have discussion. Let me know when you'd like to actually discuss it. It doesn't look like we'll be crossing that bridge any time soon though, so good day.

you're the one not discussing everything my friend, instead you keep saying everyone else is ignoring the argument when in fact it is you. you can't understand the fact that people chose to play on a PvP server and they can either:

A) accept the fact they could possibly be attacked in the world.
B) change to a PvE server.

The choice isn't binary. Try to understand that before responding again. Thanks.

Actually, it is as simple as that. You should adapt to the realm, not the other way around. I don't care if people are playing on them just so they can play with their friends, they should know what they're signing themselves up for. Ignorance is no excuse.

Originally Posted by Kelimbror

Metaphor isn't remotely accurate, but you knew that when you typed it.

Sure it is. People are complaining about what they've always complained about: dying by other players. People are just trying to dress it up to hind behind it. When you use the item, you temporary join another faction (even the item description will tell you that much). Blizzard has stated that the purpose of PvP realms is faction vs faction which is what this still is.

Originally Posted by Kelimbror

You do realize many people had never played MMOs when WoW came out right? You also realize that many people got pulled in by their friends and just did whatever they told them so they could play together. Like...you do realize that there is more to this than on/off? No...you don't do you?

PvP isn't exclusive to MMOs. I'm pretty sure a toddler could figure out what Player versus Player means.

Oh, they're playing with their friends? Who cares? They need to accept the consequence of their actions. Is your next move going to be against any form of wPvP in general? Because I'm sure there are players who play on PvP realms who don't like wPvP, you know those players who play just to be with their friends.

They make PvE realms for a reason. As I said, if someone has an issue with PvP realms working as intended, they need to transfer off.

Here, let me do everyone a favor so that they can potentially step out of their own shoes and understand what the actual choices (plural) are for what is reduced to a simple dismissal. Disclaimer: I have no problems with PvP on a PvP server because I understand the design intentions. When it happens I either engage or shrug it off. Just so no one confuses this with someone complaining it is happening to them...which will probably happen any ways.

Here's a potential situation: A person joins World of Warcraft because their friends has been playing it for a month or so. This could be a new friend you meet and any time period really. It's actually worse the longer into WoW the original player was. They happen to play on a PvP server maybe because they like it, maybe because they didn't know any better.

You play for months/years, make friends, join a guild, etc. You build relationships because this is an MMO. You level more characters. You become invested on that server. The PvP aspects don't matter too much because it never happens. There's no real incentive for it. Suddenly an item is created which heavily incentivizes PvP and allows your own faction to kill you. You are thoroughly displeased as the newest PvE content, which you have always enjoyed in relative peace, is forced into PvP content. Here are the actual choices, potentially 9 years after your one binary choice:

In order to leave the server for a PvE server you must potentially leave your guild and your real life friends. You then have to pay money for each one of your characters, potentially $150 to move to a different server. You have to choose to start from scratch as far as server rep, looking for a guild, making friends. The alternative is convincing everyone you know to spend the same $15-$150 to come join you. All of this because of an item that took 9 years to be created.

Now. Let's all step out of our own shoes and realize that those choices are a failure of Blizzard to properly support their product. Everyone deserves the play experience they want and no one, not PvE focused players or PvP focused players should have to pay extra or make sacrifices because of it. I'm going to go a step further and tell PvP players that they have not been properly supported for years until this new zone that will be coming in WoD. That's something else that should have existed.

Now. By this point, which most pro PvP people arguing with me won't have even reached, I'm going to give a concession...an olive branch to your views if you will...so that you can hopefully renounce the bias you have and understand the bigger picture. Let's just assume that the choice was as simple as you say. "well you chose a pvp server, so you have to deal with it". This choice was predicated on the concept that there were two factions at war. PvP meant you would be teaming up with your faction against another at any moment in the world. Fair enough. The Censer now completely goes back on that understanding and allows every single person in the world to kill you. That was not a part of the choice you made when choosing PvP. It's completely against the framework the game established for these encounters when you made the choice. As such, it's invalid to say that this is what people signed up for.

I don't plan on checking responses to this thread, because they will likely serve to increase my blood pressure, hurt my brain, and generally reinforce the negative view of strangers on the internet. However, I hope this PSA expands your mental horizons and enable a more understanding nature. I won't hold my breath on that last one.

Here, let me do everyone a favor so that they can potentially step out of their own shoes and understand what the actual choices (plural) are for what is reduced to a simple dismissal. Disclaimer: I have no problems with PvP on a PvP server because I understand the design intentions. When it happens I either engage or shrug it off. Just so no one confuses this with someone complaining it is happening to them...which will probably happen any ways.

Here's a potential situation: A person joins World of Warcraft because their friends has been playing it for a month or so. This could be a new friend you meet and any time period really. It's actually worse the longer into WoW the original player was. They happen to play on a PvP server maybe because they like it, maybe because they didn't know any better.

You play for months/years, make friends, join a guild, etc. You build relationships because this is an MMO. You level more characters. You become invested on that server. The PvP aspects don't matter too much because it never happens. There's no real incentive for it. Suddenly an item is created which heavily incentivizes PvP and allows your own faction to kill you. You are thoroughly displeased as the newest PvE content, which you have always enjoyed in relative peace, is forced into PvP content. Here are the actual choices, potentially 9 years after your one binary choice:

In order to leave the server for a PvE server you must potentially leave your guild and your real life friends. You then have to pay money for each one of your characters, potentially $150 to move to a different server. You have to choose to start from scratch as far as server rep, looking for a guild, making friends. The alternative is convincing everyone you know to spend the same $15-$150 to come join you. All of this because of an item that took 9 years to be created.

Now. Let's all step out of our own shoes and realize that those choices are a failure of Blizzard to properly support their product. Everyone deserves the play experience they want and no one, not PvE focused players or PvP focused players should have to pay extra or make sacrifices because of it. I'm going to go a step further and tell PvP players that they have not been properly supported for years until this new zone that will be coming in WoD. That's something else that should have existed.

Now. By this point, which most pro PvP people arguing with me won't have even reached, I'm going to give a concession...an olive branch to your views if you will...so that you can hopefully renounce the bias you have and understand the bigger picture. Let's just assume that the choice was as simple as you say. "well you chose a pvp server, so you have to deal with it". This choice was predicated on the concept that there were two factions at war. PvP meant you would be teaming up with your faction against another at any moment in the world. Fair enough. The Censer now completely goes back on that understanding and allows every single person in the world to kill you. That was not a part of the choice you made when choosing PvP. It's completely against the framework the game established for these encounters when you made the choice. As such, it's invalid to say that this is what people signed up for.

I don't plan on checking responses to this thread, because they will likely serve to increase my blood pressure, hurt my brain, and generally reinforce the negative view of strangers on the internet. However, I hope this PSA expands your mental horizons and enable a more understanding nature. I won't hold my breath on that last one.

no matter how patronising you be to try and seem smarter then everyone here, it doesn't make you right. we do understand both sides of the story, but the fact still remains you are on a PvP server. and the whole "but you shouldn't be attacked by your own faction", well technically the item creates a third faction, so you aren't being attacked by your own faction.

now, if you are incapable of having an argument or discussion in the future without being patronising and insulting, whilst saying stuff like "I will not check further responses" just because they don't agree with you, i would suggest you do not visit forums in the future.

Here's the thing, this isn't the first time PvP has been forced onto PvP. It's been there forever. Leveling is PvE and wPvP has always been an obstacle for PvE'ers to overcome while leveling, especially when a new expansion is launched. Players on PvP realms which have made all of those deep connections (to guilds and such) should be used to it by now. Timeless Isle is just as optional as those zones are. The gear isn't great and it's only purpose is to boost your ilvl.

And yes, this may be different from what you originally signed up for, but it really hasn't changed that much. Instead of fighting one faction, you're fighting two. That's really all that has changed.

Now I want you to try to look at this from the other angle. Think about these big PvP realms with massive faction imbalances. Not all of them started off with those imbalances. Some of those imbalances took years to take effect, years in which people were making friends and bonding with their guild. And now they finally get their wPvP again that they longed for, if only just for one patch of this expansion.

So I ask you, how would you fix their problem without adding this item? The only thing I could assume for you to think of would be for them to transfer off, the very idea you are so against. Honestly, should Blizzard cater to the people who signed up for the intended reasons of the realm or the people who disregarded those reasons and just wanted to play with their friends?

As a balance druid, popping starfall, then hitting lunar eclipse and starfalling again, whilst censur is active on Chi-ji.

Starfall proceeds to tag a lot of hostile ally/horde players, then when chi-ji pops his 500k/2 sec aoe, i simply TYPHOON to knock everyone out of the safe zone, followed by ursol's vortex to keep them out.

Someone told me to read your response, so I came back for it. I appreciate engaging in the conversation, seriously(not sarcasm). So here's the thing... This is the first time it's been 'forced' meaning that everyone was given a reason to be on the isle and then there was an extra incentive added to gank/pvp however you see it. Do you know what happens to similar zones when you remove the item and the rewards associated with it? People ignore other players so that they can complete their PvE objectives. That's because the rewards are what matters, not the content. That leads me to believe that 'real' world PvP isn't majorly desired. At least, not in this framework.

I'm hoping that the new entire zone devoted to PvP will actually bring something good to the table instead of feeling like Wintergrasp or Tol Barad. This is ideally what they should have been doing all along. Regardless of server, they need to develop for both content types. There should be quests and ways to farm for gear, achievements, pets, etc but in two segregated zones. Where you actually opt in to the system instead of it being a default from your server selection.

I find it odd you think having an entire faction, that are supposed to be your friends/allies, now being able to attack you is something so trivial you consider it hasn't 'really changed much'. That's like a complete design shift in the entire core of the game. Alliance vs. Horde. It's even more strange when you consider that you brought up faction imbalances. Don't you agree that those same problems are present with the censer? Whether it's because you were already outnumbered and now it's extra hopeless or because you were on the winning team and now it has been reversed, like a rug pulled from under you. Either case it's not fun for people who don't want to participate.

And then to your last point...no, your assumption that I think people need to just server change because their factions were imbalanced is not accurate. I also think that world PvP has been a myth since Tarren Mill, which any logical person and even Blizzard agrees with, but that is beside the point. It's one of the many reasons why I say Blizzard has failed to properly support the game for both content avenues. It took far too long to arrive at the virtual realm mergers, but before that there wasn't a solution. Tbh I would have recommended quitting the game and voting with your wallet, potentially lobbying blizzard for a change, but we know that wouldn't have helped much. So in reality, both situations are similar in regards to having no viable choices to make their game better.

This item didn't revolutionize or somehow alter that problem though. At best it is a band aid and at worst it's a pendulum swing wildly in the other direction to placate a probably minority of people. So I completely recognize that being on an unbalanced (outnumbered) server, but wanting actual world PvP would be disappointing with no viable solution. That's the same understanding people should have with the censer and to a larger extent the 'choice' of pvp vs pve in the first place.

There are so many scenarios where people would like a change, but Blizzard doesn't enable any of them to be rectified. I mean we could put aside the issue of PvP on a PvP server completely and still have tons of them. If all your friends leave, the server dies, etc. They are all related. The best thing Blizzard could have done so far is to allow limited, free transfers, but that will never happen. Combined with cross realm technology it would be the best solution for the players, but Blizzard wants to control things very tightly it seems.

I'm just tired of seeing the argument you 'chose' pvp, deal with it, when that's just not accurate nor a very good way to approach the game. The reality is a large portion of players, people wanting off a pvp server included, that could use some better service from their $15 in regards to their choice in gameplay.

I thought it was incredibly stupid. On my server, before I quit, there were about 10 of my faction just ganking all players for hours. It has nothing to do with a PVP realm. It invites pure griefing. Very hard to understand why Blizzard would implement this other than accepting that people are bored out of their minds playing this game, the game that has completely lost touch with its roots.