tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4964643185935723416..comments2016-03-09T11:32:05.283-05:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: DCS Art in HolmesJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3478580543878133592010-08-28T19:53:45.334-04:002010-08-28T19:53:45.334-04:00Many of my fondest memories from TSR are of the co...Many of my fondest memories from TSR are of the conversations I had with Dave over miniatures painting, arms and armor, ancient and medieval combat, and EPT. He was very knowledgeable and passionate about all four. <br /><br />He drew weapons and armor with a historical look not strictly because that&#39;s how they were but because that&#39;s how they were <i>for a reason</i>. Armor wasn&#39;t covered with spikes because spikes would prevent enemy weapons from glancing off, meaning more of the blow&#39;s energy would be transmitted into the guy who just got hit--and that&#39;s exactly what armor is supposed to prevent. Swords weren&#39;t made with all sorts of spikes and notches and serrations because those would create weak points in the steel, making the blade more likely to break. If it didn&#39;t break, a notch would catch on your enemy&#39;s armor or a spike would get irretrievably stuck in your enemy&#39;s body. Either way, you&#39;re suddenly without a weapon and in a nasty pickle. Those things were true in the real world and they&#39;d be just as true in a fantasy world, so Dave incorporated that into his illustrations.<br /><br />SteveStevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677895164302972957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15573008512013484312010-07-04T15:49:52.814-04:002010-07-04T15:49:52.814-04:00@Matthew
True that, man! Sutherland kobolds are t...@Matthew <br />True that, man! Sutherland kobolds are the only kobolds!Duglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04952607750940479779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44379843993684265822010-07-04T14:40:51.508-04:002010-07-04T14:40:51.508-04:00I don&#39;t usually care about historical arms or ...I don&#39;t usually care about historical arms or armor. I find that if I get into that mode, I start expecting the kind of realism that James rightly declares &quot;not the point.&quot;<br /><br />On the other hand, that first picture is one of my very favorites. To me, it shows the game being played. The action there is something right out of, well, a basic D&amp;D game. <i>That&#39;s</i> cool.Russell Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16201318275929153053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52272063651814772282010-07-04T12:04:36.157-04:002010-07-04T12:04:36.157-04:00Count me in the DCS III appreciation camp.
Thanks...Count me in the DCS III appreciation camp.<br /><br />Thanks to his work on the 1977 Monster Manual, Sutherland&#39;s ideas about what monsters look like have informed our collective visions of those creatures.<br /><br />The way he drew dragons, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, kobolds, etc, still influence the &quot;look&quot; of these mosnters, even today, even with 4th edition.<br /><br />For example, D&amp;D black dragons still have those forward-facing horns...a pure Sutherland touch from 1977.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10566780759389822915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23692042491228075902010-07-04T09:25:32.741-04:002010-07-04T09:25:32.741-04:00Having been reading James stuff for awhile, I am f...Having been reading James stuff for awhile, I am fascinated by his categorization of D&amp;D into Gold, Silver, Bronze, etc., ages. There&#39;s lots there he discusses that I see as being the hallmarks of the versions. <br /><br />But I think that on an intuitive level for me, what defines the transition between early 1st edition (and Greyhawk&#39;s beginnings) and the full commercialization of 1st/transition to 2nd edition (and the rise of Forgotten Realms) is the artwork. <br /><br />Trampier, Sutherland, Willingham, Roslov, Otis, et. al, works were generally a black and white style that had several impacts to me. As he says there was a groundness there - there&#39;s a truly medieval quality to these works - simplistically realistic, brutal, and somewhat disturbing at times. I think it captures 1st edition&#39;s tendency for the fantasical and the nastiness of the game. Rarely do you see the triumphant heroes just standing about posing. I think that&#39;s why Kenzer&#39;s Hackmaster books also evoke that 1st edition feel (even if the rules don&#39;t) - they&#39;ve homaged many of the illustrations (and often more brutally) to capture that feel. <br /><br />It&#39;s when you get to the work of guys like Elmore and Caldwell, you feel something&#39;s changed. Their works are often amazing, in color, and they evoke a more heroic fantasy style of D&amp;D. And that&#39;s what I most associate with 2nd edition - a change in style and mindset. If 1st edition is the medieval era, then 2nd edition seems more high-medieval/Renaissance type world. Notice that more rarely are the pictures about a struggling adventurer. It&#39;s almost always victorius hero or dashing character portrait. There&#39;s a great picture of Elmore&#39;s in the 2nd edition player&#39;s handbook (front page, I think) that shows a party posing with with a small dragon hung up like a fish they caught and a small chest of treasure at their feet. It&#39;s a great, detailed image; beautiful but with the static quality that gets Elmore criticism. I could never imagine so blatant a &quot;PCs win!&quot; quality in any 1st edition image.<br /><br />So, yea, I can see where James is coming from when he talks about them (Sutherland&#39;s work) being the &quot;foundations on which my conception of D&amp;D is built.&quot;Servohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16722280935789817607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62108084895592267692010-07-04T04:52:13.613-04:002010-07-04T04:52:13.613-04:00I love the artwork....it&#39;s good, yet at the sa...I love the artwork....it&#39;s good, yet at the same time it&#39;s simple enough that it makes your imagination fill in the blanks; it reflects the simplicity and flexibility of the rules. When I was 11 I had a brilliant imagination, and Holmes was truly evocative to me. It hinted at, and showed glimpses of, this mediaeval fantasy world, which I could envision in my mind. The artwork that came later was too complete; it left nothing to the imagination.sjanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05722064514085502251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24489211929328083772010-07-04T00:48:04.991-04:002010-07-04T00:48:04.991-04:00Great post, James.
My favorite D&amp;D Sutherland...Great post, James.<br /><br />My favorite D&amp;D Sutherland art is his stuff in B1: In Search of the Unknown. Nothing looks more D&amp;D to me than that. Oddly enough, his humble drawing of the wilderness on the back of the original pastel cover of B1 deeply moves my imagination.<br /><br />My favorite Sutherland art of anything he ever did was his work in Legions of the Petal Throne.Geoffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16161800901863646891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25978470329821561792010-07-04T00:46:58.034-04:002010-07-04T00:46:58.034-04:00http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php...<a href="http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20070304" rel="nofollow">http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20070304</a>Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85947055506623040402010-07-04T00:46:51.972-04:002010-07-04T00:46:51.972-04:00Great pics! I agree. The Holmes book was my firs...Great pics! I agree. The Holmes book was my first peek at D&amp;D and it stuck. My favorite is the wizard/web pic from your previous post. That picture speaks to me as an iconic representation of dungeoneering!Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158916950442942918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90945505559342355522010-07-04T00:43:24.097-04:002010-07-04T00:43:24.097-04:00My opinion of Sutherland has softened a bit in rec...My opinion of Sutherland has softened a bit in recent years. Partly it&#39;s &#39;cos I don&#39;t like to speak ill of the dead, but also it&#39;s &#39;cos his work is competent enough, and fits nicely with the raw, naive era of gaming before everything got all glossy. Those days of hoary yore when you bought yer D&amp;D books in a hobby store with shelves stacked with models, not in a Waldenbooks. (Although that, truly, was the era I popped up in...)<br /><br />Still and all, of the original TSR artists from the early days, Trampier is by far the most talented to my eye. I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if his influence pulled Sutherland&#39;s development of his skills on a higher trajectory, as time went on.<br /><br />@ Anthony<br />I hear ya. When 3rd. Edition came out, WotC&#39;s art and design dept was flooded with Seattle goths and alterna-kids, so it&#39;s no coincidence that dungeon delvers in the pages of the books started sporting piercings, facial tattoos, funky goatees, black lipstick, and more buckles and straps than a tack and harness shop crossed with a Hot Topic...<br /><br />Gimme Sutherland or Trampier any day. Am I being a cranky old man? <br /><br />Feh!BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10241997013520824842010-07-04T00:33:08.491-04:002010-07-04T00:33:08.491-04:00I strongly prefer &quot;verisimilitude&quot; in my...I strongly prefer &quot;verisimilitude&quot; in my art as well. About as &quot;mod&quot; as I like is some Elmore art, its a bit Romantic Fantasy meets Models but I can live it that.<br /><br />Now some of the new art is very good but it didn&#39;t feel like a &quot;place&quot; to me more like a dream or something made to be &quot;cool&quot;<br /><br />Thats fine but its not my D&amp;D5stonegameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10694550968360550229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32755717864779473982010-07-03T23:44:13.131-04:002010-07-03T23:44:13.131-04:00These illustrations have a bit of an engraving fee...These illustrations have a bit of an engraving feel to them too.<br /><br />Did you notice the guy under the hydra? :) Screw fantastical punk heroes. Fight a hydra in the dark with a standard issue long sword, you wimp.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40687074221420653962010-07-03T23:04:55.491-04:002010-07-03T23:04:55.491-04:00Those are some sweet Sutherland drawings... the pe...Those are some sweet Sutherland drawings... the perfect example of what makes him cool. He is sort of the epitome of old-school art for me. Even though I may enjoy Trampier and Otus more, I don&#39;t think I could enjoy them as much without the &quot;realistic&quot; and grounded counterpoint of Sutherland&#39;s so-called naive style. His demons in the MM really set the tone as well!Duglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04952607750940479779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8837459670968114472010-07-03T22:13:40.071-04:002010-07-03T22:13:40.071-04:00This little musing struck a chord with me, mate, a...This little musing struck a chord with me, mate, and I kind of agree with you. I find fantasy scenes by, say, Larry Elmore - as awesome as they are - to be tinged with a hint of &quot;this is too perfect&quot;. The stuff in the old rulebooks had a dark, sketchy appeal - torchlight visions that drew you into the dungeon.Addsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17593951673449684432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30727334221587503772010-07-03T22:06:39.624-04:002010-07-03T22:06:39.624-04:00Note that the fighter in the top illustration is w...Note that the fighter in the top illustration is wearing a backpack. I think that is neater than the armor itself, which is neat.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83984089174902412862010-07-03T21:42:22.154-04:002010-07-03T21:42:22.154-04:00Oh, I don&#39;t know. Considering how many things ...Oh, I don&#39;t know. Considering how many things in D&amp;D try to swallow you whole, slap you around with large paws, or wrap you up in tentacles, a few spikes or sharp edges on the armor seems kind of smart to me. ;)Cusickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698562397742719005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-221132967918233142010-07-03T21:13:04.252-04:002010-07-03T21:13:04.252-04:00I wouldn&#39;t call them &quot;great artists&quot;...I wouldn&#39;t call them &quot;great artists&quot; (though they&#39;re better than I, who can&#39;t draw a straight line), but I much prefer it to the art that became popular with 3E and later games, with pointed, punkish-looking characters who looked like they were drawn as a fantasy version of &quot;urban cool.&quot; And the clothing? I&#39;ve never understood the fascination with costumes that looked like they were made from multiple (and oddly place) belts.<br /><br />Pardon me. My grumpy old man was coming out. :)<br /><br />Like I said, I&#39;ll take the pseudo-historical, any day.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19110775756386342432010-07-03T21:08:30.566-04:002010-07-03T21:08:30.566-04:00Same here, I&#39;ve always been a fan of his work ...Same here, I&#39;ve always been a fan of his work and feel Sutherland never got the respect he deserved. Plus, he drew the scariest looking Harpies!crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.com