Saturday, December 02, 2006

CFB Saturday Live-Comment TailgateFINAL UPDATE: Ohio State vs...?!?!

UPDATE 2!: Before this game, if you told me that USC would lose, I would have had a hard time deciding between Michigan and Florida. But based on Florida's performance in the SEC title game win over Arkansas -- combined with Michigan's previous opportunity to beat Ohio State -- I couldn't argue more strenuously for Florida to play Ohio State in the BCS title game.

Here's what it's going to come down to: How many human voters -- Harris poll and Coaches' poll -- will vault Florida over Michigan based on the SEC championship? (And what will the computers do with the new data? Isn't it worth pointing out that if UCLA beat USC and USC beat Notre Dame that Michigan's single high-quality win of the season -- over Notre Dame -- continues to look less and less impressive?)

All records being equal:1a. Florida won the SEC title.1b. Michigan didn't win the Big Ten.2. Florida played a tougher schedule.3. Florida had more quality wins.4. Michigan had their shot vs. Ohio St.

You don't have to be a Florida fan -- just someone who loves college football -- to understand that the only title game that makes sense, justifies the bodies of work and upholds the fairest sense of competition in an otherwise murky process is to pit Ohio State versus...Florida. Let the debate begin.

(PS: The real winners in all this are all all the folks who want to see a playoff system. No matter who gets picked -- Michigan or Florida -- it should help accelerate and facilitate the creation of a playoff... which, as all of you know, I have yet to hear of a system that doesn't create as many problems as it purports to solve. But that's a debate for another day, because we've got a hell of a debate going right now...)

UPDATE!: I don't care if USC wins -- the way they've played today, they don't deserve to play in the national title game. Let's hope they lose and make it a non-issue. If voters/ESPN hold "style points" against Florida recently, they sure as hell better hold it against USC right now. Meanwhile, Florida is playing their best game of the season, TD notwithstanding. I hope voters are paying attention -- I can imagine they're a little focused on USC-UCLA right now... -- D.S.

Our last regular-season CFB Saturday Live-Comment Tailgate of the year. I'd be all nostalgic if it wasn't for the compelling game storylines: Rutgers to BCS? Wake Forest to BCS? USC to title game? Florida BCS controversy? Michigan scoreboard-watching? And, of course, Army-Navy.

Have your say in the Comments section all day long. (Oh, and since there's no real Quickie-style wrap-up today of the biggest storylines -- CFB and otherwise -- coming out of last night and this morning, please feel free to drop in your own news items, complete with your own spin. The rest of us will pile on.)

Now, after Ohio State absolutely makes a mockery of USC in the BCS Championship game, I can write a longwinded comment on how Michigan should have been in the game for a rematch. This is a joke, USC will get pummeled by the evil Buckeyes.

The de facto playoff, you already had your shot argument is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I you are basing it on the best team left, it should be Michigan...and if not Michigan, it should be Florida (assuming they beat Arkansas today, which is no gimme) who marched through the SEC, a much tougher conference then the joke-of-a-Pac10 (Oregon and Cal turned out to be busts). Florida's one loss was to a really good Auburn team, and USC lost to an UNRANKED team -- no excuse for that...but all that being said, it should be Big Big Blue...

Oh yea, and Florida is a joke too, and they also would get destroed by OSU...'nough said!

yo sf, just curious, what did you predict would happen in the world series? I know, man, OSU is better on paper, but there is always the chance of an upset. Michigan had their chance at an upset, came close and caught some breaks, but couldn't pull it off. I say, give someone else the chance at an upset. The system sucks, and you may be right, given a playoff we might end up with UM/OSU again; but without the playoffs, a UM/OSU rematch is simply unfair to the other teams out there. Line 'em up, play the game, and see which way the ball bounces. With some luck, USC (or UF) could beat OSU (hell, with some luck, so could louisville, Boise, or Oklahoma, but noone is even including these rightful suitors for the crown in the conversation)...

I have a sneaking suspicion that enough voters will vote for Florida ahead of Michigan because of the unwritten "no rematch" rule, and that the BCS will be incredibly tight - I wouldn't be shocked if it were within .002 points. The voters have the power here. It'll be interesting.

An unconvincing win by Florida (if they can come back, down 21-17 now) will make it tougher for voters to rank them #2. So, Michigan would play OSU again, but then you once again have a team who didn't win their own conference playing for the national title. That'll be a big blow to the BCS.

Florida loses. Michigan gets the invite. BC$ suits PRAY that OSU wins, because if Michigan wins (my greatest hope), then the BC$ will have most likely result in a split poll, and the whole thing will be in shambles. A national champion who has been beaten by the #2 team... I love it. Please, bring on the 16-team playoff and everybody will have to finally prove it on the field, period.

Worldwide Reader said... What's the analyst's name on CBS? Danielson? He is good.

Oh my God. I can't stand Gary Danielson. He couldn't tell you the difference between an end around, a reverse, and a double reverse if you spotted him 2 of the 3. That really really really bugs me. If you can't tell the difference between the 3 you aren't qualified to tell me anything about the game being played.

There was a great Musberger line in the game today. There was a run that came up about 4 yards shy of the 1st on 1st down. Musberger was ADDing and said: "Looks like third down and a short.... So first down and 10." It was 2nd and 4.

It has to do more with the fact that it does not end with a CLEAR championship. OSU can argue they are 1-1 against Michigan, and should get a best-out-of-three, and XX% of the nation would agree with them.

TMQ is a tool. I could live with some of his comments if he wasn't so blatantly wrong about SO many things. As an alum of the small school that he says has no class, ability, heart, etc, he can rot for all I care. He is a moron that is only marginally better than his brother.

I am a proud Gorilla. But we didnt run up the score in a single game that he has gone off on. We have pulled out our starters and Backups in the first half. What are we supposed to do when I am in there and I suck, but we still score. Plus, he complains about our scheduling bad opponents, but the two games this year he has complained about were conference games! Like I said, he is blatantly wrong about so many things that it is laughable if he wasnt misinforming so many people.

In a nutshell, Pittsburg State of Kansas set the all-time scoring record in 2004. TMQ claimed that we ran up the score, passed in the 4th, faked punts, and basically any other unsportmanlike thing that is possible when he was with NFL.com. This year he has brought it back and said that we ran up the score on opponents that we hand-picked. Problem was they were conference games and they are not picked at all. In short, TMQ = moron about CFB.

Also, I love the Mastadon name. Did you guys have someone dressed up as one. If so, do you know where I can see pics of that?

Why does USC get a BCS anyway huh??? There two losses Oregon State, and UCLA, powerhouses this is not. PUNISH THEM!!! Make them play in the Capital One Bowl or the Insight.Com Festivus Bowl or something...

Man, I WAS GONNA GO TO PASADENA!!! I WAS GONNA SEE THE ROSES!! THE ROSES!!! I hate USC!!!

jeff is right. Ohio St.-Michigan would set it up for Florida-ND in the sugar and LSU-USC in the rose. Then all your frustrations would be alleviated Horatio as LSU would no doubt pound USC into oblivion.

All I can say is Florida deserves a chance to play for the National Championship. The de facto playoff system that we have... USC lost to UCLA, OSU beat Michigan. Florida beat Arkansas. Michigan had there chance and blew it.

So we'd have Rutgers-Boise St. (if the knights beat WV). Two obscure powerhouses ignored because of some arbitrary ideas about style points and "winning tradition" and skepticism about fan turnout at the bowl games. They'd get their own trophy...maybe some roses or something...we could get Dick Butkus to present it...they'd play it in the meadowlands...really drive home the point that this is not the glamour game in nice weather with palm trees. No, this is what you get when you try to crash the club. You get the room off to the side next to the bathrooms.

I don't understand your point. What is significant about UCLA and Arkansas in the "playoff" that you're talking about?

Was there some sort of playoffs that I didn't hear about, featuring UM, OSU, USC, UCLA, Arkansas, and UF? Are UCLA, UF, and OSU going to the next round? Wasn't Auburn invited? Oregon State? What the fuck?

Flordia has every right to be in the National Championship game. As a Michigan fan, if they do go I will have no problems with the choice. We didn't win the Big 10 and we did "have our chance."

However! In our defense if we do get a shot to go to the national championship game remember our 1 loss is the best 1 loss in the entire country.

What do I mean? We lost to the #1 team in the country, the only undefeated team in the country by 3 points AT their field.

I'm still sick of Wisconsin getting no respect. Any team that comes from a big conference with just 1 loss is a damn good team and counts as a "significant" win. If you ever give a team it's only loss of the season it is a big win. I don't really care if that team is from the Big 10, Big East, SEC or even the MAC. It counts as a significant win. The only reason why Wisconsin is getting no respect is because they didn't play OSU and they are named wisconsin.

It is extremely sad that the final choice is going to come down to style points. Hopefully it will just aid into a playoff system. I don't care if it is a +1, 8 team, or 16 team playoff... just something.

I feel most for Michigan. Someone had to lose that came, and they may be the second best team in college football.

But then, SEC just won the champions of what I think is the toughest conference in college football.

Would a Playoff solve this? Who would be the 4th team? No way should it be USC, LSU couldn't even win its half of the conference, the Big East is just a tease? Only fair thing would be let Ohio play Boise and if Boise pulls off the miracle they get the Mich v. Fla winner for the title.

If College Football ever goes to playoff, it need be only be 4 teams,. I can't recall a #5 team ever being worthy of even a consideration for national title

First, delete the post above this one; I can't believe these people exist. Second, whaaaaat? Remember most of this game, when we were all saying... what was it...

Unbelievable. Does anyone wanna play OSU? (thanks, Mike)

because Florida was playing like butt. Or don't you remember the 6 points your guaranteed winner Leak shoveled into Arkansas's mitt? Or the fact that Arkansas sucked bigtime? I know we don't believe in style points or whatever, but since you seem to be suggesting that we do today, I don't think that game was the place to find them.

Here's the thing, though - I really wouldn't mind UF in the NC Game so much (certainly not as much as I would have minded USC), but all these Gatorites I know (of) are being totally ass-y about all this.

Also, weren't you one of the guys who gave up on UF 2 months ago because they kept being terrible? Whatevs.

Your updated posting is correct, but give credit where credit is due. Yes, Florida played a tougher schedule. They played the TOUGHEST schedule (ie #1) in the country. But Michigan was #3, and they lost at #1 OSU by 3, whereas Florida lost at Auburn by 10 (and got lucky to beat Tennessee). Doesn't that count for anything?

Due to your personal circumstances, you have to pull for Florida. You also choose to defend the "season-long playoff" system. But let's be serious here.... Florida will get their asses handed to them by OSU. Michigan at least has a chance, especially on a neutral field.

It seems like under most people's logic, had Michigan had OSU as their "bye" team this year and instead lost their one game, by 3, on the road, to say, Purdue, this would somehow mean they were a better team. WTF?

All records being equal:1a. Each team lost one regular season game... One by 3 pts, to the #1 team in the country. The other by 10 pts to the #11 team in the country.

1b. The Big Ten doesn't have a 13th Game. So Michigan didn't have a 'Second Chance'.

2. #1 Tiebreaker should be common opponent. Vanderbilt is the only team that they both played. UF won by 6. Michigan won by 20.

"You don't have to be a Florida fan -- just someone who loves college football -- to understand that the only title game that makes sense, justifies the bodies of work and upholds the fairest sense of competition in an otherwise murky process is to pit Ohio State versus...Florida."

Huh, what? Am I dumb for being smart? By the rules that have been defined for 2006... Michigan is the only choice for OSU's opponent in Glendale.

If the rules were different... Well if If's and But's Were Candy And Nuts We'd All Have a Merry Christmas.

A 4 team playoff? Give me a break. So you would include Boise State who is ranked #12? Come on. Teams #4-11 would complain, and if you didn't include a BSU, it still wouldn't be fair. You have to have a 16-team playoff, that way there will be NO excuse for a conference to feel slighted, etc. Seeding will be the only "controversy" a la the NCAA BB tourney, but if you're still the best, you're the best, so it really doesn't matter.

A 4-team or 8-team playoff reeks of exclusionism and not wanting to share the chance with other supposed "lower-tier" teams. You think you're the best? Open it up to everybody, then we will all be able to acknowledge that the winner of the tourney truly is the national championship. This is how every other sport does it. This is how football does it in the FCS (Div AA). Let's play it out on the field. Period.

I have a radical idea for OSU. Turn down the BCS offer and declare yourself the BCS champ. They ended the season at 1.000 with no losses. Why even chance tarnishing their undefeated season with another game? Any thoughts? (besides your dumb)

I love the ridiculous arguments that are spawned with this BC$ "Who's #2?" argument. Comparing who beat who by how much? Style points? Who lost to who and what are they currently ranked?

Can you imagine trying to identify the top two teams in NCAA basketball this way? Only those top two could have the chance at the championship? Brother. The BC$ is just plain dumb. People are finally starting to see it.

Reason I say four team is because truely, each year I only see 3 teams as truly worthy of consideration. figure you through in the Mid-Major school who qualifies for BCS because, hey who knows. But teams 4-11, I could care less what they think. This year, none of the 5-11 teams have any decent arguments for why they under ANY circumstance should they be considered the National Champ. Seems to me, thats how it always is.

Theres always 3 teams that could be #1 (or 1 clear #1 and 2 teams that could be #2, and that really it.)

Lets face it, USC, LSU, Norte Dame, Arkansas, Louisville and Auburn each had a chance to earn thier way in and failed. I could care less about thier whining, they should only care about which Bowl they get to play in (LSU FOR ROSE BOWL!!! COMON!!! Ill bring gumbo!!!) but to even open thier mouths and suggest they are best team is a waste of time

Boise wasn't given the chance, yet earned thier way to the highest point they could strive for. So, they get a shot, I expect them to be destoryed against Ohio, but isnt that for the best? You justify not ranking mid-majors high by having them steamrolled by the #1 team every new years. Then, you get the National Championshiop

I see your point, but I think there are plenty of teams out there who would disagree based on who they played, when they played them, what conference they were in (other strong teams in their conference), etc.

A 16-team playoff would take four weeks, and can you imagine how COOL it would be? I honestly watch maybe 3-4 bowl games a year. Most don't mean a darn thing. A 16-team playoff equals 15 games where most people would watch at least half of them.

There would be the Cinderella factor as well.

Anyways, tell me what would be negative about it? Every conference would send their conference champ, and you would have a few at-large bids.

The regular season would focus more on winning your conference. OOC games would give you a chance to face true competition without being AS worried about a possible loss. You would want your team to peak at the end of the season and play their best ball then.

It would be like any other sport. Why make college football so different?

#1 - I like the small schools having the month of December where they get Primetime billing.

You run a National Championship Playoff during this time and you will never see some teams.

#2 - More games played, more likely for injury. Some schools are 1 to 2 man teams. Lose them, and they are done for. How many times truly could Vince Young have taken off last year before a junior with nothing to lose and everything to gain just takes a cheap shot?

#3 - Its the Holidays!!! Maybe I'm a softie, but these guys are just kids, they arent pros, letem have some time to do thier school work and bond with family. Theres enough games.

#4 - alot of teams just don't deserve a second chance. You have a playoff now, theres a, I think 35% chance USC, LSU, Notre Dame, Wisconsin could win it. They are good teams that play up to competition. But frankly, they haven't earned it. I don't follow College Basketball two closely till January, and don't even consider the NBA to have begun until xmas because the nature of thier playoffs, a full regular season doesnt truly matter. It should matter dammit!!! It should matter ALOT!!! We have a short window for football, ever week counts so every game should. I can't tell you how sick I feel when LSU plays ULL or Tulane or Southern, a waste of a weekend where I could truly have something to watch with all the joys of sport. Sure, I can go party, but I live in New Orleans, Ive never needed a reason to party.

Just to me, 4 team playoff is all you need. Heck, I feel same way about NASCAR's Chase for the Cup, 10+ drivers is over kill, shorten it to like 6 and restart all points I say.

I'm also not a fan of expanding the NFL's playoffs to include more teams, and think the NBA's 1st round is a joke. Playoffs should be exclusive, not inclusive. College Basketball's Round of 64 (don't need that play-in game, its a waste) is good only because it force's teams to go on a run, and frankly many years the only thing that can seperate college basketball teams is who can go on a 6 game winning streak when the pressure is on

mike -- [insert some arguement about strength of schedule here, followed by a comprehensive list of different teams and their respective records. followed then by someone bringing it all back to notre dame.]

Hey, it has to be said, especially since it puts even more pressure on the Pac-10 to improve their joke officiating (Did anyone else see that false start penalty that they waved off late in the UCLA-USC game? Have you ever seen anything like that, let alone during a last-gasp drive?)

#1 - I never watch any of the 1-AA schools. I don't think many people do, but I could be wrong.

#2 - Injuries are just part of the game. 8 teams play 1 extra game, 4 teams play 2 extra games, 2 teams play 3 extra games, and 2 teams play 4. Yes, it's possible.. but it's always a threat.

#3 - Players going to a bowl have limited holidays as it is. I'm pretty sure they don't mind. Going to a bowl game is a big deal and there will be other Christmases...

#4 - Some teams never have gotten a first chance. That's my big issue. Teams from the WAC, the MWC, and other non-BC$ conferences who win their conference should get a chance at the national championship EVERY year. As it is now, they have to have back-to-back stellar seasons in order to get high enough in the polls to actually have a shot.

Anyways, I think we'll agree to disagree, but I think a 16-team playoff would be the ultimate solution... not to mention a much better revenue generator for the NCAA, the conferences, etc. than the current bowl situation.

Not that I am serious about refusing, but YOU have to be joking about the getting kicked out part.And on the PI at the end, does anyone else wonder why the announcers always say they won't call that here. If it is a penaly, or a foul in bball, then aren't you basically not doing your job by not calling it?

Review rules always drive me crazy. If there is a system set up for reviewing anything, ever, the person reviewing ought to be able to fix ANY calls that were obviously, obviously wrong. Always. I'm sorry if it breaks your rules, it should just be that way. I remember the first year of the tryout of review in the Big Ten, when the announcers said "...they aren't even allowed to review that!" at least once per game; almost every time, it fixed an incorrect call, and I thought it was great.

You know what's right, replay-watching-man; if they gave you the wrong video feed to begin with, why don't you do something that's technically "wrong," but ends up making things right?

But let's just ignore that whole thing BCS-wise, considering the fact that we all know OU's not really that great anyway (right?).

Ehhh. I think the question of "whose is more ridiculous" might be appropriate here. I nominate yours; your suggestion was instigating the whole situation; mine was reacting to the excessively ridiculous scenario you had provided.

What would the Big Ten do, if Ohio State really, actually refused to attend the BCS National Championship game?

I agree they are both ridiculous, but as Biff said, the BCS has us arguing over who is NUMBER 2. We arent even arguing over who is number 1 anymore, and I pray, for the end of the BCS, that OSU loses to whomever they play and we can argue over who is number 1 with all the teams with 1 loss, excluding incorrectly in my opinion Boise State and the possiblity they could be undefeated. I was merely positing that OSU is the consensus number one team in the land and playing another game to prove it, where all that can can only stay the same and could possibly get worse is an idea they could want to avoid. In all sersiousness, I know if would never happen, but as I said above, and others have as well, we are discussing who the second best team is, not the best and that to me is wrong.

Yeah, Florida and Michigan both deserve a shot at OSU more then OU, but I think they deserve to at least be mentioned given how everyone basically wrote them off this season, and the only play they've really gotten was during that whole big blown call mess.

Isn't it worth pointing out that if UCLA beat USC and USC beat Notre Dame that Michigan's single high-quality win of the season -- over Notre Dame -- continues to look less and less impressive?)

All records being equal:1a. Florida won the SEC title.1b. Michigan didn't win the Big Ten.2. Florida played a tougher schedule.3. Florida had more quality wins.4. Michigan had their shot vs. Ohio St.

You don't have to be a Florida fan -- just someone who loves college football -- to understand that the only title game that makes sense, justifies the bodies of work and upholds the fairest sense of competition in an otherwise murky process is to pit Ohio State versus...Florida. Let the debate begin.

Shanoff:

1) Its hard to take you seriously when just a few posts ago you said you basically throw shit against the wall to see what will stick.

3) FLA won the SEC title in a conference title game. There is no Bit 10(11) title game nimwhit. If there was and UM/OSU played in the title game who knows who would win on a neutral field.

4) Florida had more quality wins and played a tougher schedule? Really? How good was the SEC? GA? Tenn? Kentucky? Bitch please. They shoulda lost to South Caro. Good of you not to mention FLA was up and down all year.

5) "Mich had their shot" - ahhh yes, the argument of the ignorant. If the Gators are selected are they going to play AT Ohio State? No.

You really can't take this guy serious. He's already admitted that he "tests" out claims just to see what shit sounds like. AND Florida isn't even Dan's "team". IT'S HIS WIFES TEAM! Man up and stick to the Wildcats.

Dan,I have no dog in this fight (as a Penn State grad) and would be glad to watch the Gators play Ohio State. However, be careful what you wish for Gator lover because they will get demolished by Ohio State. I mean throttled. To the tune of something like 35-17. Yeah, that offense is going to score on OSU when they had to block 2 kicks to beat South Carolina. The cha,mp of the SEC vs. the champ of the Big Ten? Okay, sure, I'm in. And when Tressel gets finished slapping around Florida maybe all the SEC apologists will shut the hell up when the realize their best got handled by the Big Ten's best. It'll be sweet to watch and then come on here are read you try to rationalize it away.

Of course, then you can try and jock the Gator hoops team and the "greatest college frontline of the past 25 years" as you called it. That one is almost as absurd as Reggie Nelson being the best defensive player you've ever seen. Seriously, Dan, your lack of objectivity about anything Florida ( a school you didn't even attend) is an absolute joke.

guy... you're right, but while i'm waiting for him to score, i might as well get to see other fun things. besides the hawai'i coach wearing a hawaiian shirt. (see how i put the ' in there, i've been paying attention)

and its pretty cool that their "green out" involves very large leaves.

anyway.... what was the question? heisman? yeah, disappointing, but not surprising. which, incidentally, is a phrase i use a lot in regards to college football.

Its amusing to see all that junk blowing across the field, but this game is killing me after the slugfests that were the SEC Championship Game and WVU-Rutgers. Plus, with all that wind, I don't think he's going to be able to get the record with the wind blowing that hard.

scar tissue, play nice. i get your premise that perhaps Hawaii isn't the in most competive conference around. however, you're acting like you yourself could play QB for HI and do similarly. part of being a great player is doing what you can with what your dealt.

It's what the people want -right now, ESPN shows that 54% want Michigan to play -I'll admit that that poll is unscientific, but assuming what everyone wants based on what YOU want is extremely unscientific

Strength of schedule -you can't choose to play different teams halfway through the season -schedule rankings are not directly analogous to how good a team is; how WELL they played those teams, now that is -this would be a valid point if one team played a horrendous schedule, but neither did -logically, if you're #2 or #whatever, you should beat any team below you, no excuses

Michigan had their shot -honestly, I hope I'd feel the same way if the roles were reversed, but I can't say for sure; it's so easy to be biased here -BUT, if there's one thing I think we should be able to agree, it's that you shouldn't be penalized for losing to a better team than another team lost to

This team beat that team which beat that other team, so this other team is the best -I'll leave it as an exercise as to why this logic doesn't work and needs to stop

This doesn't mean that you can't argue Florida into the nat'l championship game, you just aren't moving their case forward using these points.

The one and only question is, who is the best team right now? Not who deserves to go in, but who is the best? The best team, by rule, will be most deserving to go in.

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DanShanoff.com is a sports-blog spin-off of my long-time ESPN.com column, "The Daily Quickie." Anchored by an early-morning post of must-know topics, the blog is updated frequently throughout the day with new posts and user comments.