I've seen and met and rolled with hundreds of Wing Chun people in the 4 years I trained. In all that time, only 3 people could actually do what they said they could do. Everyone else is just playing patty cake.

Its not just WC though, and I know you'll agree with me.
The vast majority of NON-combat sport systems are like this.

On the other hand, sport systems like judo are also guilty of narrow minded sparring practices.

Indeed. You will find that most wing chun schools including reputable ones will produce good and not so good students. You have to realise that people are different. Some people take to wing chun easily. Others find it hard learning a new art.

I know in my class there are a couple of individuals who train hard and work to become good students. There are others who do it as a hobby (something to do on a Saturday) and don't ever want to be anything more than students.

I do find that wing chun schools vary in what they teach. I have looked at Sifu Grados in New York and he looks really good, but his students didn't seem as hot.

It is frustrating because it gives wing chun a bad name. I was told by a Leung Ting/WT student, Peter Masters that their style tends to hand pick the best of the best and train them up to be really really good, while the others are left behind a little bit.

Certainly under Kamon we have sometimes been listed under the McDojo category, but I would say that I would gladly have any of the instructors on my side in a fight. We might teach slightly differently (some focus primarily on forms, others focus on fighting, etc)from each other, but I enjoy it as it gives you options (don't want to train forms, don't go to that class etc)

Kevin Chan is into BJJ, and competes in sub grappling.
Do people from Kamon ever use your Wing Chun in full contact standup competition against other styles ? If so, what kind of results have you had ?

Kevin Chan is into BJJ, and competes in sub grappling.
Do people from Kamon ever use your Wing Chun in full contact standup competition against other styles ? If so, what kind of results have you had ?

It's funny you say that. Sifu was telling me about Dino Meringo who has just been signed up to UFC. Sifu used to train with him at the Gracie Barra gym. It was scary to watch!! Sometimes Sifu would win, other times Dino would win.

As for students, we already have some guys who fight in cages or in boxing rings etc and have taken up Kamon for a few years. They say that the wing chun allows them to last in fights.

Master Chan gets us boxing (we did some last night) and using our arrow walk to add power to the punches (rather than keep on our toes).

Where did you get your appreciation of SLT from? -I haven't really heard that from any non-wc practitioners before.

Originally Posted by Omar

All in all I didn't see what the big deal was. The only WC form I have ever been really keen on learning was just plain old Siu Lum Tao. That's the one I think that really builds the most gongfu. The others just give a wider array of techniques to choose from. I guess I didn't quite see how Chum Kiu was supposed to do what it claims either. I got more from the two man Hung Gar sets and from sticky hands type drills than I ever did from Chum Kiu. But then again, that is a really hard concept for most people to grasp well. I take it for granted and already did when I was shown Chum Kiu but when I have tried to teach those kinds of ideas to others I haven't had much luck. Maybe if I didn't already have a solid grasp of centerline theory and bridge arm technique I would have found Chum Kiu more interesting.

Siu Lum Tao is the real gem as far as I am concerned. It's often like that though. The most basic form is the most important. The problem is, most people don't understand about building gongfu. They just want to learn techniques. Siu Lum Tao presents some real basic, core even, concepts of southern shaolin and it presents them in an exceptionally clear and almost platonic way. But then it also builds gongfu. That's such a hard concept to explain.

"It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm

Siu Nim Tao is great in the sense that it sort of uncomplicates the system. It largely trains reflexes and automatic reactions as well as the basic concepts. Indeed, it really is the most important form because without it, the whole system falls apart. In fact, while it looks pretty simple, there's much more to it than meets the eye. Actually, we had about a 1 and half hour mini-seminar on the form just last night. Very insightful, some things are so subtle you just don't realise they are in there without thinking about it a bit.