Captain's log, stardate 4657.5. Work is proceeding on the Enterprise as my crew is forced to make the required changes in the ship for intergalactic travel. I can't forget the picture of Yeoman Thompson crushed to a handful of dust.

So we should recognize that there are inconsistencies and mixed messages within it, rather than cherrypicking something from one episode and elevating it with language like "the original idea."

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Silly me, I thought the title of the thread was "Star Trek ConceptsOriginating in TAS". My point remains valid.

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You've lost track of what we were discussing. I was referring to the claim that "Turnabout Intruder"'s last-minute assertion about female starship captains was "the original idea." I wasn't addressing anything to do with TAS at all.

This was a far cry from the original idea that women could not become starship captains.

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I don't know if "original idea" is the right description for that considering that it only showed up in the very last episode of the series -- and the very first episode, "The Cage," had shown a female Number One commanding the ship in the captain's absence. I'd call it more of an unfortunate afterthought that mercifully came too late to do any damage.

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While I like "The Cage", it was an unsuccessful pilot for the series. In all of actual TOS, a woman never commanded a starship... even briefly.

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I humbly disagree - besides the Romulan Commander which was quite correctly sited in another post - but sticking to Starfleet vessels. If I'm remembering correctly, the portion of The Cage footage which shows Number One being left in command is encorporated into The Menagerie - thus including it in TOS.

This was a far cry from the original idea that women could not become starship captains.

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I don't know if "original idea" is the right description for that considering that it only showed up in the very last episode of the series -- and the very first episode, "The Cage," had shown a female Number One commanding the ship in the captain's absence. I'd call it more of an unfortunate afterthought that mercifully came too late to do any damage.

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While I like "The Cage", it was an unsuccessful pilot for the series. In all of actual TOS, a woman never commanded a starship... even briefly.

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Wrong. The events from "The Cage" are presented as historical fact in the two-part "The Menagerie." And since the vast majority of "The Cage" footage is shown in the two-parter those events establish a fact in the TOS universe.

But not a squadron of Starfleet starships. And she not Human. As you noted, we never saw a human woman in command of a starship, it's possible that females of other species with memberships in the Federation did have their females in command of ships.

If I'm remembering correctly, the portion of The Cage footage which shows Number One being left in command is encorporated into The Menagerie - thus including it in TOS.

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A parallel might be this as far as Number One being in a position where circumstances might place her in command of the ship.

Historically, American military policy was that women not be placed in combat assignments, however in their support roles women would occasionally find themselves in combat. They would travel into the wrong area, or events would overtake them. They would be removed from the combat situation as soon as possible, they would not be simply allowed to stay in combat.

As second in command Number One could find herself in command if something happen to Pike, but would she be allowed by Starfleet Command to retain that command? Or would a new commanding officer (male) have been assigned to the ship as soon as possible?

Again: the only hint of women not being allowed to command was in the very last episode of the show, which was a crappy episode that deserves to be ignored -- and the line was spoken by a lunatic. So why even take it seriously? Just write it off as one more of TOS's many continuity glitches and ignore the damn thing.

But not a squadron of Starfleet starships. And she not Human. As you noted, we never saw a human woman in command of a starship, it's possible that females of other species with memberships in the Federation did have their females in command of ships.

If I'm remembering correctly, the portion of The Cage footage which shows Number One being left in command is encorporated into The Menagerie - thus including it in TOS.

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A parallel might be this as far as Number One being in a position where circumstances might place her in command of the ship.

Historically, American military policy was that women not be placed in combat assignments, however in their support roles women would occasionally find themselves in combat. They would travel into the wrong area, or events would overtake them. They would be removed from the combat situation as soon as possible, they would not be simply allowed to stay in combat.

As second in command Number One could find herself in command if something happen to Pike, but would she be allowed by Starfleet Command to retain that command? Or would a new commanding officer (male) have been assigned to the ship as soon as possible?

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Why would Number One be an XO if she's not going to command one day? She's not a doctor, a therapist or the phone operator.

The Franz Joseph and Michael McMaster blueprints incorporated the second bridge door from TAS, and portrayed it as leading to a service corridor around the bridge. And yes, the corridor did allow access to a head, as well as to a gangway down to deck 2.

On this page of screencaps from Beyond the Farthest Star, there is this shot, which gives about the best look there is inside the second door that I recall. As one of Filmation's infamous errors, the shot evidently lacks the door elements themselves, thus revealing what's back there.

A comparison of the backgrounds, in particular the colors and noting the presence of the silver stripe almost shoulder high, convinces me, at least, that the intent was for there to be a turbolift at the second exit, as established in the behind the scenes material that's out there.

That character was indeed insane, so I think it likely there only were no female captains of starships at that time--more specifically no captains of Constitution-class ships. But by STIV we definitely saw a female captain of a Miranda-class.

That character was indeed insane, so I think it likely there only were no female captains of starships at that time--more specifically no captains of Constitution-class ships.

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We don't even need to assume that much. Janet Lester's exact words were, "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women." That could be taken to mean that his duties as a captain left him no room for a woman in his life. Or maybe it was just a paranoid delusion she constructed to avoid admitting her own lack of qualifications. It makes no sense to assume that an assertion by an insane person is true on any level at all.

In the Pocket novels, there is indeed at least one female captain of a Constitution-class ship contemporaneous with TOS, Captain Atish Khatami of the Endeavour. John Byrne's IDW comics have Pike's Number One as a commodore commanding the Yorktown during or shortly after the events of TOS.

Not to repeat myself, though apparently it's necessary: Kirk agreed with Janice. We know good and well that Janice didn't just want to be Kirk's lover, she wanted to be a starship captain. The episode doesn't make sense, unless it's about the glass ceiling.

Not to repeat myself, though apparently it's necessary: Kirk agreed with Janice. We know good and well that Janice didn't just want to be Kirk's lover, she wanted to be a starship captain. The episode doesn't make sense, unless it's about the glass ceiling.

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Or he felt it pointless to argue with someone who is known to be nuts and also apparently very ill. It's safe to assume this isn't the first time the subject was discussed and probably argued. After a while you're tired of the subject and just shrug it off with, "Fine, whatever."

If you take Lester's comment at full face value, then yes there is some contradictory information in TOS about whether women can command a starship. So which do you give greater weight? The episode (Cage/Menagerie) where a woman was actually shown in command of a starship, or one line of dialogue by a character who was quite obviously erratic and unreliable? To me there's no question: Being female did not disqualify one from starship command.