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Mass Street Shooting

One man was killed and another man was seriously wounded when gunfire erupted overnight outside a downtown Lawrence night club, Lawrence Police announced this morning.

Robert Earl Williams, 46, was pronounced dead on arrival at Lawrence Memorial Hospital, where he was taken after being shot shortly after 2 a.m. in the street outside of the Granada, 1020 Mass. St., Police Capt. David L. Cobb said in a written statement released to the media.

Another victim, a 22-year-old man who has not yet been identified, was found inside the Granada, where he had run after being shot, Cobb said. That man, who had "serious wounds" was transported by helicopter ambulance to a Kansas City Hospital, where he was in surgery this morning, Cobb said.

Neither of the victims were Lawrence residents, Cobb said.

Police said witnesses have identified the man who fired the gun as being a 6-foot-tall African American who was wearing a "puffy-style" jacket. That man left the scene in a tan 1990s GM vehicle, Cobb said.

Officers and detectives were interviewing witnesses this morning and have cordoned off the area in front of the Granada with police tape as they search for evidence, Cobb said.

Anyone with information about the shooting and about the man who fired the gun are encouraged to contact the Lawrence Police Department Detective Division at 785-830-7430, or, to remain anonymous, call the TIPS HOTLINE at 785-843-TIPS(8477), Cobb said.

He said police will not release any further information about the shootings until 11 a.m. Monday.

Place

A witness at the scene early this morning, Steven Bowen, said he was standing by a car across the street from the Granada talking with two women when he heard three shots fired. Bowen said he saw an African American man fall face down to the ground.

Bowen said he rushed over, along with a Lawrence police officer, and they proceeded to turn the victim over and begin issuing CPR.

"I pushed down on his chest to get him breathing," said Bowen, who still had dried blood on his hands. "When an ambulance arrived the man had a slight pulse and was breathing better than he first was when I rushed over to him in the middle of the street."

Police, who responded to a call about the shootings at 2:12 a.m., also took dogs inside the Granada to investigate.

Comments

Man what is this town coming too. Sometimes i wonder this town is getting has bad and Kansas City. Thank god there was some one standing right across the street that seen one person fall so hopefully his life will be saved but it does not sound good. They need to do away with either all the bars or half the bars in Lawrence. They get rid of half of the bars and put something in this town for the kids to do that does not include drinking alcohol then maybe there might be as many crimes committed in this town. Please take away the BARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The bars aren't the problem...it's the people that go there. If you're over 21, you can drink! Last time I checked there was something in the Constitution relating to these topics. Don't like it? Don't go there! Don't like Lawrence? Leave...please!

While profiling may provide a simple answer, don't be so quick to judge.

The gun may not have even been in the bar...when that bar and others spill into the street at the same time...lots of parked cars around...who knows who has what in their car...remember the guns found recently in cars in the lot across from Borders?

conservativeman: it's nice to see that you have an interest in protecting people's civil liberties...

We live in an ultra-violent society now. Perhaps people will start appreciating the job that police deal with and start paying them accordingly (seriously, most departments pay around $35k/yr. starting - is that any kind of salary for putting your life on the line??). Honestly, I'm not surprised at the shooting. I'm just surprised that it didn't happen at Last Call for a change.

I am ready for Last Call and the Granada to have their alochol license in jeopardy. It does seem like both require too much LPD time. What is it about these two locations?

The LPD cannot be downtown and monitoring the college house parties at the same time and also be expected in the neighborhoods for whatever reason not to mention managing drunk drivers which require an extraordinary amount of time.

More crime and rowdy behavior are the hidden costs of growth. More cops equal higher payrolls and these individuals deserve to be paid well. Not only could they be putting their lives on the line but their work schedules can really suck not to mention having to be in court on their off time.

I'm just wondering what led you to believe this story had anything at all to do with "rap music." I don't see anything in the story that says there was "rap music" playing at the scene. Did you just go from "african-american victim" to "rap music?"

To paraphrase a well-known rap artist: music may be able to alter moods and talk to you, but it can't load a gun up and cock it too.

Well, once this concealed weapons bill passes, we'll all be able to pack heat. That should eliminate all the crime and violence.

And at least if the victim had been packing, he might have been able to pump a few bullets into his attacker...that would at least make him feel better about the whole thing--knowing he got a couple shots off.

And, if we were all allowed to carry concealed weapons, perhaps Mr. Bowen, rather than administering CPR could have attempted to shoot the perpetrator with his weapon.

Ahh. Well, then I see how the connection was made. Still, it's a bit presumptious to even assume that the people involved in the shooting (both shooters and vctims) were even at The Granada. According to the article, the shooting hapened outside the Granada -- not inside it.

It could have just as easily said that it took place outside Urban Outfitters, right?

I grew up in Lawrence and now live in Washington DC. I brought my girlfriend home, she is black and I am white, several months ago and she was terrified. Can't say I blame her when people make comments like the ones I have read in this blog. Race and Rap music had nothing to do with what happened early this morning. It had to do with an idiot with a gun who wasn't afraid to pull the trigger.

Lawrence, and Kansas needs to wake up and get with the program and stop blaming problems with violence on music and race. I listen to rap and hip-hop all the time and it doesn't make me want to commit acts of violence. Sometimes I even drink when I listen to it.

Oh, and by the way Coach and Conservativeman, race, music and drugs aren't the problem, but your ignorance is. Sometimes I'm embarassed to say I am from Kansas.

Sometimes, when you have even an optimal environment, you will discover that violent crime such as this is still prevalent. I used to live in a small area populated by about 350 people. Interestingly enough, the murder rate there was about 2 a year. And this was a community that all went to the same church. Sometimes things happen, and we don't know why.

Rap music incites violence like no other genre of music. Plain and simple. Anyone who tries to deny that knows they are lying to themselves. If a bar decides to have a rap concert , they better pay the money for extra security and stop wasting the time of the LPD!

irnmadn88, where do you think the people who owned those cars parked at Borders were? Inside the bookstore drinking a latte and reading the paper? Doesnt matter if they had the guns with them inside the Granada or they were within easy reach once they got outside, there are too many guns out on the street. Guns and alchohol are a very dangerous combination.

No music genre is responsible for anyone purchasing a weapon, loading it, and committing aggrevated assault on anyone. Not even Ice Cube's infamous 'Cop Killer' song was responsible.

People are responsible for their choices, and allowing them to cop out by saying a song told them to do it, or the dog, or a parking meter is a massive slap in the face to free will.

I have listened to a fair amount of rap/hip hop, and have never felt the urge to implement any of the lyrics into my life. My pants stay at my waist line, usually use the English language properly, so on and so forth.

I have listened to quite a bit f heavy metal and a fair amount of death metal. Never had a desire to do any violence because of those songs, except in a mosh pit, but it is condoned, if not expected, in there.

Bars don't kill people.

Guns don't kill people.

People with no respect for life, either their own or others, kill people. The problem is NOT gun proliferation, or any type of music. The problem is societal attitudes and the fact that there is no way to legislate it, or even attempt to force it to change. It has to change on it's own, or it is no longer a choice of free will, but instead forced indoctrination, which is an even bigger tragedy.

Life is choice, pure and simple. We don't always have the best available choices, and some leave quite a nasty taste in our mouths. It is a conscious choice to reach or the firearm. It is a conscious choice to pull the trigger. If it wasn't a conscious choice, people would not shoot then run, or commit drive-by shootings.

If everyone was protecting themselves the way they should be, (according to the 2nd amendment) the shooter would have to think real hard whether he/she wanted to start anything because there would be a price to pay by not being peaceful.

The population of Lawrence has allowed themselves to be disarmed and is now paying the price for this unintelligent move. An unarmed populace is an easy target for criminals.

"Police said witnesses have identified the man who fired the gun as being a 6-foot-tall African American who was wearing a "puffy-style" jacket. That man left the scene in a tan 1990s GM vehicle, Cobb said." Imagine that.........

YWN, if you will read the Capital Journal this morning, you will learn that the gang problem in Topeka involves all races. What the gangsters have in common is a culture of crime, violence and illegal drug use.

One of the only intelligent comment I have read on this blog so far is from Ember. Rap does not equal violence and Ice-T's song, cop-killer, wasn't even a rap song. It was a song his band Body Count, which is a Hardcore Metal Band, sang. People can hide behind music and claim that the song provoked them to do it but the real catalyst for their actions is a much deeper. People can also claim the one type of music, such as rap, is worse than the other but this is just a way of ignoring that we still live in a segrated society where it is easier to place blame on a skin color or a person's appearance as opposed to looking inward and admitting to ourselves that we are all part of the problem.

Those who are suggesting that rap, which is clearly a racial inference, or thugs or gansters, or whatever epithet they chose to use, are disgracing not only themselves but society as a whole.

Hmm... I think one of the top selling rap artists is white. So when I talk about "thugs" I mean people who dress the part and then cry when they are judged on it, regardless of their color. Ember-your view sounds great on paper but it just doesn't translate in real life. Saying rap music has no impact on violence is like saying the internet has no influence on child molesters. It makes a lot of people who are on the edge of making very bad decisions feel like their actions are normal.

Gangsta culture is not segregated - plenty of whites aspire to membership. And it's true that the basis of that culture is guns, violence, drugs, and degradation of women.

You don't have to live in the big city to be an entrepreneur who caters to the wannabes with venues where small-town people can rub elbows with the big city crowd and enact all of the trendy gansta behavior they see on MTV and hear on the Ipods that grow out of their ears.

Face it: There's money in it. Until the profit motive is hobbled somehow, the venues will continue to cater to this demographic and there will continue to be violence and blood in the streets ... even in lovely Lawrence.

I don't recall suggesting that gang culture is not associated with guns, killing, violence and drug use so I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Also, rap is a reflection of many different things as is every type of music. Additionally, what I am suggesting is that a rap concert isn't the root cause of violence in our culture, neither is gang activity.

Additionally, what many people on the blog are failing to recognize is that music, including rap, is a form of self expression, and self expression is art. Should we repress self expression in our society? Taking away ones right to express themselves, regardless of the consequences, has great implications.

Rap music didn't cause this nor did rock music cause that one kid to kill himself along time ago. Remember when that happened? That kid killed himself or possibly others and they tried to blame Ozzy or Manson for it.

I don't think its the type of music in this case. Rap music doesn't cause death. This guy had it out for the other guy and knew where he would be. I'm pretty sure he waited in his car until closing, saw his target and shot him. Who knows if it was gang related, or simply a jealous boyfriend thing. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Liberty--My earlier post about the benefits of concealed weaponry was DRIPPING in sarcasm. To say that an armed citizenry makes for a safer citizenry is RIDICULOUS! The people who are advocating weapons for all in America, are the same people who are sending sons and daughters off to die to take nukes away from countries that can't be trusted with them. More hypocricy from the RIGHT.

A lot of different comments. But until there is an investigation to find why this shooting took place, all anyone can do is guess why it happened. Maybe it was related to drugs somehow, maybe it was a revenge shooting over something, since it seems the shooter came in and did his deed and then left. I do know, from having owned one in the past, that a bar with a lot people drinking and some that get drunk can become a battleground when those people decide to go out of control. And the police get pretty tired of having to respond to those kinds of calls. And I don't blame them. Who doesn't get tired of trying to deal with stupid drunks? If everyone that drinks and gets drunk could stay in a decent frame of mind, I suppose police would not have to run to these bars all the time. I agree with the person who said that people make their own choices. But when under the influence of alcohol, those choices are not always good ones. Still, no one knows what happened in this case. I just hope it will be solved. And hope that downtown Lawrence doesn't suffer permanently for this.

The bottom line here is the trouble bars have the most problems on the nights that Hip Hop and Rap play. Last Call does not have a big gun problem in Border's Parking lot on the Alternative Lifestyle techno dance night. The Thugs White or black do not go to Last Call on Alternative Lifestyle night or Rock Night at All Stars.

If anyone remembered this from way back when. Rap was considered the "newspaper" for the street culture. They talked about what was going on in their streets. Well now they are bringing it to our streets.

I have presented this before...How many shootings, stabbings, fights etc take place at the Academy Awards, Golden Globes, American Music Awards, American Country Awards...How many have occured over the past five years at the Source Hip Hop Awards and other related Hip Hop/Rap awards ceremonies.

Although there is some criminal elements in all music industries how many of the big names and the genre they come from boast of being former drug dealers (Snoop...Biggie...), bank robbers "who can now talk about it because the statute of limitations is up" (Ice T on Tonight Show). There is a strong association with guns, drugs, violence, male super ego.

Everyone wants to be like their favorite musician in the 80's metal for example lots of mullets and big hair ripped jeans, Maybe you dressed in all leather like Rob Halford in Judas Priest (He was bad man you know he is getting the chicks-LOL)...not a big threat.

Rap moved from RUNDMC Sugarhill gang, LL Cool J to NWA, ICE T...what did the people try and be...

One cannot deny that the undertones of most genres of rap are of hate and violence. But there IS a strong correlation between rap culture, gangs, shootings and the incitation of violence. Most rap lyrics exemplify the life of a thug, the subjection of women and the overall glorification of rage. There is a scientific way the music we listen to can amplify the violence and emotion innate within our minds: mix that will alcohol, a gun and you have the perfect receipe for a killing. It is NOT just as simple as "guns don't kill people...," it is a number of complex factors. Just look at the statistics. This is not a RACE issue; this is a culture issue. Lawrence, if wanting to cater and subscribe to this 'gangsta' culture in our downtown bars and avenues should be lawfully mandated to uptold tighter security. ALL the bigger cities do it. There are all types of thugs on the streets, but if we choose to play their favorite music--I would have to suspect something might occur if one didn't have a tighter control then say, the Grenada was playing washed-out 80's music during Thursday night.

Forgive me for being semantic and pedantic, but let's not forget that "rap" is a vocal style, not a genre of music or a lifestyle. "Hip-hop" is the genre of music that most often incorporates rap vocals, but rapping can also be heard in pop, rock, and even country songs (hello Big and Rich).

I realize this doesn't seem particularly relevant, but those of you that are trying to blame "rap music" (which isn't even a real genre) for this are not properly articulating your own (ridiculous) point. You're blaming it on "rappers," when in fact "rappers" encompasses people like Justin Timberlake and Cowboy Troy. What you really mean to say is that you don't like violent thugs and you don't like their message of violence being propogated through music. But, the reality is that plenty of hip-hop lyrics are entirely non-violent and plenty of other musical genres regularly portray violence in their songs.

If you're the type of person that believes in censorship and doesn't believe in the first ammendment, then focus your commentary on the violence in lyrics, not the genre or musician's color of skin.

First off if guns were made illegal, people would be lobbing pipe bombs at each other causing a hell of a lot more casulties to innocent bystanders....and there is allways your trusty blade.
Second, when people say "gangs" they mean gangs....if you automatically assume they mean "black" you are the one being racist....
Thirdly, most people with any common sense knows it a very small % of the people coming to the last call and granada that are causing these problems....But the problems are still being caused....and empirical evidence states that they are caused because there are these venues at the granada and last call.....You can argue semantics and lawyer up as much as you would like, but it is a pretty glaring fact.....Rival groups or people getting together in a neutral territory where it is much harder to be identified by the bystanders makes this a vendetta rich envirement.
It is not being racist or facist for the cops to target these establishments and make their prescence known and to crack down harshly until the time that there is some actual reduction of the idiocy that is going on now.
If some fratbar or the replay was having these problems I would say the same thing.....this isnt the usual one on one drunk fight shi!t, this is becoming escalating violence that no one wants or needs.....Most thugs and drug dealers want this either(it is bad for business)

the First Amendment is great and I was against the PMRC (Why anyone in 2000 wanted Gore in office knowing his why was into labeling and restricting music is beyond me) in the 80s when they were focused on Ozzy, Priest, Maiden, Twisted Sister, Alice Cooper, WASP, DIO, KISS...

The difference today is there was a big line drawn between fantasy and reality. They always had people saying that is what I do on stage and is fantasy...now the person has to "live the life"...how many video games were there back then that had "thug life" glamorized.

Lot's a negativity today. Let me try to be honest. When the 2005 crime stats are released nationally soon, violent crime will be up big time compaired to 2004. Murder rates in many major cities are way up. Why? Black on black crime should not be tolerated by black leaders. And when one of the top selling DVD's is Stop Snitchin/Stop Lyin by The Game, this only hurts the cause. Rambling, I know.

well maybe all the complainers of lack of front page news will be happy now. a murder wow! at least were not being bothered or harassed about the waving crossing gaurd grouch butts. and we are nowhere close to kansas city or topeka when it comes to crimes. get a reality check people. Lawrence is a great town, those who copare to topeka or KC need to move there for awhile. bet they'll wanta come back to lawrence. lets all pray they catch this killer.

What a sad day to see my hometown with another murder on its hands. But let's face it folks Lawrence has been in a steady decline for awhile now and it's only going to get worse as the town continues to grow more. But that's life I guess.

screw that , this living in fear b.s. has been forced down our throats long enough.... i for one fully support the "no retreat" defense laws some states have passed, but then I believe in legalized dueling and that it is a citizens responsibility to be able to defend themselves(so cops can get back to the business of being constables of peace, not enforcers of law)

American society as a whole is reaping what it has sowed when it comes to gun violence and alcohol abuse.

The thug lifestyle popularized in "gangsta rap" music and videos the last twenty or so years has become a part of mainstream popular culture. You need look no further than several channels of programming available on Sunflower Broadband. Alcohol use and the club lifestyle are sold to us by everybody from Universal Televison to Anheuser-Busch.

A drunk with a gun is a terrible thing, and this society does very little to promote positive images in its' popular culture. "If it Bleeds, It leads" is a good working motto for most local newscasts.

You said: "Every Saturday night set up 'check-points' for guns, drugs, etc... on I-70 West and East, K-10 etc...stop the gangsta's (veiled racism) before they even enter Lawrence. A couple of months of this and maybe these gangsta's will get the picture!v"

A couple of questions:
1) Will everyone be stopped, or just black people and young people dressed like gangstas?

2) Will guns be taken from law-abiding white citizens or only young, black gangstas?

I'm still a bit confused as to the reasons for the discussion of violence in music as it relates to this story. We still have no idea whether the shooter and victims were even AT the so-called "rap concert." Right? Anyone who blames the "rap concert" at this point is doing so on the basis of skin color -- you're assuming that since the shooter was black, he must have been at the "rap concert."

It's pretty ignorant to blame the bars for what happened.. or the music.. Everyone can't live in their perfect utopian world,,.. impossible,.. if there are evil people out there,.. and there will always be some bad apples of the bunch. Ever heard of the trickle down effect... starting with our government?

I don't think people are being rascist. Do you guys watch the KC news? What color are 90% of crime suspects they show?
I agree with Liberty. If everyone could pack heat, you would be less likely to be attacked. The perp would have to wonder if you or someone else would have the ability to shoot back. There is a liquor store owner in Topeka who keeps a loaded gun on his counter, he has never been robbed. When you see that gun, a robber would already know the odds are against him.

After reading the comments I had to respond, I saw one person that might have a clue as to what to do about this growing problem...PRAY...There is so much hate and blame on all the comments and it is so easy to jump on that band-wagon, we can either do the easy things or we can stand out from the crowd and do what is needed, and that is ...Repent from our own personal wrong-doing and turn our lives over to Jesus Christ and let Him direct our paths.... Several people commented on choice... love or hate ...it's ALL a choice. I am sorry a precious soul had to lose his life in our town like he did....but let's not let it happen in vain. There are only two commandments now-a-days...Love the Lord God... and Love thy neighbor as thyself.... can WE do that? I know we can... if we can just say NO to sin! I challenge everyone in Lawrence to LOVE what is good and walk away from sin...... and try really hard not run and jump on that band-wagon of hate....!

LEts back up. The shooting took place outside the Granada whic had a hip hop night. The suspect is a black male and the victim who got cpr was a black male.

Now I was at the Anthrax show on Jan 15th at the Granada and the folks standing outside of that show were not picking fights, waving guns or having a problem. They were high fiving and had a bunch of grins on their faces. I will concede it was rough to be in the mosh pit and if you watch the Turnike on channel 6 it will verify the crowd reaction...but their was no fighting, stabbings or shootings inside or outside after ward.

Like you I own a couple of guns but it did not cross my mind to take it to the Anthrax show that night either.

I agree there are many hip hop artists who do not advocate violence or rap about guns...but unfortunately there are a lot who do. I used to dress like my metal heros and not once did I carry a piece (Like Ted Nugent) or broad sword (If you were really into Maiden Dio or couple others) or act out some of of the lyrics. The closest I came was You Shook Me All night Long whic was not really that bad for either party.

Music brings certain crowds and activites into the area around those shows. If you read the paper the guns are in the cars which obviously are not parked inside the clubs and kept there until they leave the bars (who are patting down and wanding prior to entering). The fights occur outside when they have access to their firearms and want to carry on the "eye balling" in the parking lots and street they started inside the club. If you do not admit that goes on in the clubs...then I got some swamp land I want to sell you.

If you have crafts show you would see a large number of 60-90 year olds... you fill in the blanks

Unfortunately it's just the world that we live in. Look at the brutal attack in a bar in Massachusetts, it was a 17 to 18 year old white boy who worships nazi beliefs and loved ICP. Some people let outside things influence the way they think and the way that they act. We are a media driven world and most of what people consider real is what they listen to or what they see in the movies are on tv. Unfortunately when you shoot someone in real life, you don't see them walking on the red carpet the next week.

This set of posts has triggered two great outsiders' tunes to start running through my mind, kind of like a call and response:

"What's so bad about peace, love, and understanding?"

countered by

"Lawyers, guns, and money..."

Talk won't cook the rice, so what's to be done about the decadence that has crept into the back yard of lovely Lawrence? Probably nothing short of martial law sooner or later.

The huge number of comments relative to this event simply reflect that there are a couple of great big hot-buttons polarizing us and this event is simply a chance to vent our various positions. Talk won't fix anything here, but it is likely to make the divide wider.

How about that man who died and anyone who might have loved him? He's a non-entity in this enlightened discussion.

I don't deny that music influences people. My point is simply that we can't blame the music for that -- we should be blaming those who are influenced to that degree (and probably their parents, too).

Yes, that boy in Massachusetts loced ICP and obviously wasnt able to separate entertainment from reality. Howerver, the vast, vast majaority of music fans -- even fans of violent acts like ICP -- understand that music is entertainment and fantasy, not reality.

I'm a 29 year old white guy from Johnson County who grew up on N.W.A. Most of my childhood was spent listening to some really violent stuff. And yet, I'm about as non-confrontational as they come. And the vast majority of us are. Why? Because we are in the right frame of mind and we had good parenting.

How many of you saw the movie Pulp Fiction? All of you, right? How many of you killed someone as a result? None? And yet, somewhere, some kid probably did shoot someone because he was influenced by that flick. Do we blame Tarrantino? The MPAA? Sam Jackson?

I used to think like you. Ban guns, legalize and tax drugs, regulate this, regulate that. Luckily, despite years of public education, I'm still able to think for myself. I did a lot of thinking and the conclusions to which I arrived challenged many of my beliefs. You claim that my right to own a firearm should be impinged because you think the streets would be safer. Yet, you ignore the fact that places with fewer gun restrictions like New Hampshire have MUCH lower crime rates compared to other states. Restricting gun ownership only hurts honest people and gives criminals one less thing to worry about. Do you think the man that allegedly shot these two people would've left his gun at home if we posted "No Guns Allowed" signs at the city limits? Give me a break. The criminals will always find a way to subvert the law. Why take away my ability to defend my home because you don't like guns?

Furthermore, you claim that violent overthrow of the US government isn't a valid reason to own firearms because the military is too strong. You mustn't have heard about how much trouble our military is having in Iraq. The goal shouldn't be complete domination of the US military, just to make them think twice before they relieve us or our rights, liberty or property. True freedom REQUIRES the ability to protect and defend yourself and others. You may enjoy being a slave, but I enjoy my freedom and I don't intend to sit by passively while it is taken from me.

As to your thoughts on drugs, your closer, but still a little off the mark. Regulation almost never prevents prices from rising; it almost always prevents prices from dropping, however. Furthermore, add oppressive taxes to stringent regulation of drugs and your prices are all the sudden HIGHER than on the black market. Regulation and taxation is NOT the answer. Liberty and a free market are the answer.

Are we really going to re-hash the whole life-imitates-art or art-imitates-life argument all over again here Lawrencechick?
("Rap music incites violence like no other genre of music.")

Why don't you do a little research to see how many times this argument has been leveled at rap artists and heavy metal musicians in court over the past two decades (when blamed for suicides, etc.) and see just how successful that has been?

The thing I find most noteworthy about many of the postings here today is the fact that nobody is saying how sad it is that one man was killed and one injured.

I don't see anyone saying Gee, how tragic that a man has died. I'd be really curious to see how people would have been reacting here had the victim been white. Instead of anger and fear about "outsiders" (read: blacks) coming to Lawrence, how about a little sadness over the life lost.

Nobody really knows what happened or even what caused it so it is stupid and racist and ignorant to assume rap had anything to do with it. If you want to argue about hip hop culture, go call Bill Cosby. Or better yet, move away.

Many of the absurd posts on here make me ashamed to be a Kansan today. I'm disgusted and dismayed to think white people are so honestly afraid when they see "a ton of black people and 'thuggish' looking characters..."

"I'm disgusted and dismayed to think white people are so honestly afraid when they see "a ton of black people and 'thuggish' looking characters..."

Uhh, clearly you didn't actually READ my post that you quoted from. I've been on your side of this argument thought the entire thread. The line that you've taken out of context was clearly a bit of sarcasam. I was pointing out that at last weekend's show of a hardcore hip-hop artist (Tech N9ne), where many black folks (and white folks) were present, there wasn't a single iota of violence. So, clearly, the problem is not "the black people and 'thuggish looking' characters."

THAT was my point, and I think it was pretty clear. You took it out of context and made me look like a racist hick. Not appreciated.

Does the music inspire the violence, or does the violence inspire the music?

Elvis shook his hips and hte world didn't end.

Kiss took the stage and yet 'Satan' never claimed our souls.

It's music. Every generation has a genre that was embraced as a way of being different from our parents. First it was rock-n-roll. Then it was counter-culture. Then it was hair metal. Next came heavy metal. Now it's rap.

It's just music.

And violence is NOT limited to rap. Reba McEntire sang about killing her brother's cheating wife. Garth Brooks sang about a wife shooting and killing her cheating husband. Aerosmith wrote about a daughter killing her sexually abusive father.

Sorry about that jcroft. Obviously anyone who was at a technine concert would have to be fairly open-minded on the topics of race and culture!

It is kind of funny tho. b/c I have read a few posts on here recently about people feeling sure they're coming across as "sarcastic" and message boards are not the most nuanced forms of communication so in a hurry one tends to gloss over the subtleties, as I clearly did...

So again, sorry about that.

One other thing I wonder if anyone thought about: in a big city newspaper the witness would NEVER be named like this just out of fear of possible retribution and their overall safety. The shooter here could easily assume this well-meaning person also saw him and try to locate him. Not so crafty there, LJW. "Unidentified witness" is usually the way to go.

My thoughts go out to the family of the young man who was killed, and to the man still in the hospital and his family.

I hope that the person who did it is swiftly brought to justice, and that the injured man is able to recover.

Also, I'd like to say that Bowen, who ran towards a situation he knew involved gunfire, to try and help save the life of someone it doesn't sound like he even knew, displayed remarkable courage and selflessness that not many people would have shown in the same circumstances.

I'm guessing the shooting occured because Chuck Norris wasn't there to save the day.

I imagine just like all the KC and Topeka shootings it probably went down for something like somebody stepping on anothers shoe, or not showing respect for anothers gold teeth. I'm sure this killing is about something so trivial like that. We will see.

Musicians typically sing about what they have been through. Many rap artists have grown up with violence and express their experiences throught their music. That is why it attracts people who have been through the same experiences. A lot of people who listen to it can really feel it, they can relate. Violence, drugs, gangs have inspired rap music. Not the other way around.

The problem is that these kids grow up in poverty, around family who follow in their parents foot steps of retreating to illegal activity (selling drugs, stealing) in order to survive. This of course causes violence. Education is the answer. Teaching these kids from the ghetto self-worth, respect for life, and that education can help them avoid a life full of crime can help. If the ways can be changed then rap music would then change as well.

Does the gun discharge a round into you simply because rap is being played?

Now pick up the gun.

Point it at the wall.

Does a bullet race out of the muzzle before YOU pull the trigger, or after?

Citing that child molestors are using the Internet is at best a farcical comparisson. The Internet, just like every single firearm in the world, simply is. It is neither good nor evil. The use it is put towards is what dictates it's nature at that time, for that person. Period.

Hundreds of people every year are assaulted with baseball bats. Should we ban the sport, or just prosecute those that intentionally cause harm with an inanimate object?

Same thing could be said about cars, hammers, pipes, and even construction materials from time to time. DO we ban those things, or do we prosecute those that commit the assault?

Rap music is as much a primary cause of gang violence as Judas Priest is the leading cause of teen suicides.

Topeka's gang problem is discussed in today's Cap-Journal. These gangsta types go out at night and own the streets if they aren't in jail where they belong. Do liberal judges and the aclu make it easier for the bad guys roaming among us? Guess we should just stay home after dark and give the thugs the streets until sunrise. Sounds like another one of those good Hollywood movies.

Oh holy hannah now here we go with the ACLU. It was only a matter of time, I guess. "Gangsta types" - Love it. And yes the Capitol Journal just always gets it so RIGHT after all. Brilliant piece of journalism over there at the TCJ, I'm betting.

Look: crime stems from social problems, folks. Since all the whites are so scared, how about a little fear factor then to spur some action: if schools, healthcare, police budgets and drug rehab programs don't get better funding, all these so-called "gangstas" aren't going anywhere. Ready to vote for change?

It's interesting to hear people say that race is not an issue in this crime and many others like it in the KC area... If you think it's not an issue, you are blind. It doesn't take a genius to look at how many murders have been committed around this part of the country lately and see how many were young minority males commiting the crimes and were also victims! The urban sprawl has entered Lawrence and even more so in Topeka and KC. The fact is that some, and not all, minority males seem to think they are above the law and living the "gangsta" lifestyle. The strong black and other minority leaders in this area need to do something about this problem, because it is their problem... Someone needs to put a stop to this! Doesn't black America know that they are slowly killing off their next generation of young males? And yes, rap music does contribute to this type of violence. It promotes a lifestyle of crime and irresponsibility. I enjoy rap music but I don't take it seriously, it is music, NOT A LIFESTYLE CHOICE.

I am an avid hunter and believe in gun ownership, however, I think that everyone should be required to take a gun safety course prior to owning any gun, especially a handgun. These gangsta-types have no business owning a gun, and would probably carry one even without being "certified". However, the average law-abiding citizen is defenseless against such thugs. I'm in support of conceal/carry to help protect the law-abiding citizens but not everyone should qualify for this privilege, it should require a long process and be limited to those with firearms experience.

This is a wonderful city and if you are into the gangsta, shoot em' up crap, PLEASE GO BACK TO KC, or better yet go to LA. I hate to see this happening to the midwest. We live here to avoid this type of senseless crime that is so prevalent on the coasts. And remember we are fighting a bigger enemy right now, terrorism, so maybe we should all take the time to get along and support our country's cause rather than killing/thinning out the minority youth population. Just a thought...

I have lived in Lawrence 25 years and have seen it grow from a small town into a large city that retains a small town naivite. I love the values of the people of Lawrence, but we must face the reality of the growth imposed upon us over the last few years. Until we make a concerted effort to reform the structure of our city government, we cannot effectively face the problems that this growth has brought us.

I don't say the rap song killed this man. I say people who like this kind of music killed this man. ben_ness if you are trying to say there is no correlation between violence and the people who listen to rap music, then you are the one who is an embarrassment to Kansas. Look at the number of Rap artist who are killed violently in this country. I don't think the songs kill them I think people involed in the industry did it. Face it Rap comes from a violent portion of our society. If you can't see that you are incapable of being truthful to yourself. By the way I have been to Washington and I have been to Lawrence. Washington is a much more frightening place to be. Compare the murder rates and I think you will find it is a logical conclusion.

Doesn't anyone remember a few months ago when one of the officers was hanging around last call at closing time? The owner called and complained to the department because this officer was making his patrons uncomfortable? End result..even when officers try to help to avoid just this type of incident when confronted..sheriffs department and LPD will back down. Why is it that when monitoring needs to happen at these places people complain that they are being harassed but they are the first to whine asking where are the police when they know there is a problem.

jannie..you are so far off base with this post as you normally are with others. Too bad the people that try to speak louder and longer than others are really the ones that need to get their info straight.

I actually think you have some mad ego issues and it makes you feel better to belittle others. They offer help for that now you know. Try to get some then spout your crap in somewhere else in lawrence. Better yet..use your full name and we can see how well the cops work around here. You are a joke and so are your posts. I would rather listen to Mation at least he backs all his statement with some website or other..not that I agree with him but at least he is trying to enlighten and not belittle..go save your animals and leave the people to those that do make a difference not just noise. Loud, screeching noise.

Evidently, you have been abscent from society for the last 15 years... prison perhaps. Before racial profiling became the political hot potato, all major US police departments published racially sourced crime statistics. Afro-Americans make up less than 25% of the US population, but are resposnsible for over 70% of the crime in the US. Facts are facts.

BTW sassy blacks, make up about 13% of the population and commit about 50% of the crime. with such a small percentage of the population being black lets just lock them all up. perhaps that is too extreme lets just have the police stop every auto that has a black man in it esp if he is driving and is not dressed like joe college. we can search them (to hell with their rights i want to feel safe) and harrass them and if they are from out of town we will make it clear that we don't want "their" kind around these parts. That would make evryone feel safe

jannie,
have you ever been the victim of a crime? if you have, I cant believe you think lawrence doesnt need more police. LPD is understaffed, underequipped, and underfunded. most of the police cars dont even have radar. heck, I have two open cases that I'm pretty sure will go nowhere, a criminal damage to property and a robbery. why? because there is so much other crap they have to deal with. you might want to actually see how many officers are on patrol every night, it is startlingly less than one might expect, especially in a college town. I will leave you wondering about this: if something went down in those nice new houses northwest of 6th and wakarusa, how long do you think it would take an officer to get there?

as the link above did not link to the picture the humor is lost. just so you know it was the famous picture of an alabama police dog ripping the pant leg of a black protestor in the 1960's. You may all be appropriately amused now.

I don't mind if the POLICE and other law enforcement agents use race as a point of investigation. but YOU are not the law enforcement. You say "facts are facts," but you 'facts" are clearly wrong.

I trust (perhaps naively) that our law enforcement will consider all possibilities. They may use race as part of their algorithm for determining the most likely possibilities, but I trust they won't accuse someone based on race alone -- like you are.

Daddax98..I truly hope you are being sarcastic.. I hppen to know a lot of people that don't feel that way. Unfortunately, we seem to end up always hearing from the loudmouths who are just ignorant. Please just remember that the majority of posters wouldn't dare publicly outcry against anyone if others actually got to meet them face to face. They rely on being a written nobody.

Lock up down town at dark . And if anyone is downtown after dark than lock them up for two or three weeks . And maybe that will help clean up down town . And maybe thay will stay in kansas city and topeka and than thay can shot themselfs in there own citys.

It bad when you can't go out and have a good time without having to watch out for thugs with guns and drugs. What is it going to come to. the bussiness checking guns in at the door or medal detectors at the door to make us feel save. Have the bouncer walk you to the cars. It's bad when your home town is getting as bad as the big citys. Know one cares about the person next door anymore.

Janniebullinlawrence. I hope you never need assitance from the police. Your facts are so far off. There wasn't an officer in the block and a witness is the one that gave the police the description. If you think this PD can't solve crimes then you can't be pleased. This PD has the highest solvability rate than any other department in this state, and probably several more. Those officers are also the most competent around. It's too bad you have a chip on your should for them. Your probably had a bad experience with one and you judge all others by that one bad guy.

Godot (Doesn't Compton own the Granada now? Or won't he soon? He needs to change the venue at that building.) Look up venue. How can you change a venue at a building? The building IS the venue. However, the legal definition of venue would be the locality where a crime was committed. Interesting faux paw.

hip hop music brings out the bad element of society. if you pay any attention to what happens in kansas city, they have problems at the clubs where hip hop music is played. the hip hop crowd spends a lot of money, a lot more than your typical college crowd, and they buy a lot $$$$ of expensive liquor.

the real blame is the owner of the club knowingly (or unknowingly?) going after that all mighty dollar by catering to the hip hop crowd -most coming from kansas city or topeka, taking that chance nothing serious happens.

i am an american who happens to be black so don't throw any stuff my way regarding racism. it's the truth.

It's so depressing how everything on here always devolves into name-calling lunacy and negativity. Isn't there a way we could all be more productive, somehow?

Obviously all of us care about making this city a better place (or we wouldn't be spending time talking about it - right?) so why don't we work together to fix all the things that are wrong without allowing things to break down along racial and political lines?

On a practical level, what can each of us do--today--to make this a better place to live? Am I hopelessly naive?

I have been reading these comments for the past 20 minutes and all I can say it that I am embarrassed to be from Kansas and have spent over four years of my life in Lawrence. Some of you need to remember that Lawrence is the town it is because it is so ethnically and racially diverse. Blaming a certain type of person does not solve the problem at hand, it only creates more of a barrier. You do not have to be a certain "color" to shoot a person, you don't have to listen to a certain type of music, you don't have to be a drinker, and you don't have to enjoy going to bars. All it takes is an uneducated person with a gun that snaps. Wake up.

I am laughing at all this racial slinging going on. How insane that those of you from Lawrence are going to make comments like that?! We have a campus, a university, tons of venues to relax and have fun at; therefore we have a diverse crowd of people. It's great that out-of-towners come to Lawrence and bring the revenue. Really, how do you know the shooter wasn't from Lawrence? I've lived in Lawrence for quite a few years now and I club; I enjoy going to Last Call and Club 815 until the violence erupts. It's not because of race, believe you me, I'm one of a few white females that go to Last Call and I haven't been singled out because of my race in a violent manner. People are the one's breeding violence. If everyone possessed the same morals and religious beliefs, we'd be great! (Said with sarcasm) No two people are exactly the same and you can't force people to not be unique. Don't talk about chasing people away because of their color or getting rid of this music and that music in lieu of what? Who can classify what music is acceptable? Even in opera/jazz/classical there is some type of crescendo! I'm sure that raises one's blood pressure one iota. This is ridiculous. Stop it already. Step back and look at what you're saying before you say it. Show some intelligence.

I know for a fact it's not race. Ignorance and violence comes in all colors. It's part drug culture, part gang related. Mostly crack and meth as I see it. Pot smokers are too slow to find their guns. And it's seems to be non-locals for the most part. Why, they've been trashing quick shops and shooting at each other driving down K-10 for months now as they leave town.

And it's not the music. Everyone knows Rap and Hip Hop tunes are full of reverance for peace and love. The lyrics are full of goodwill toward one's fellow man. The peaceful souls who attend these musical events are always full of love, peace, and benevolence. Odd though that most of the guns are found in cars outside these venues.

Point of fact, a man was shot dead on our main street today. God bless his soul and may he rest in peace. And may the coward who killed him and bloodied our streets be found and dealt with as suits his crime.

All I can say is that I'm glad I no longer go out to the clubs. I stopped about five years ago, and I remember the occassional brawl, but nothing as serious as this. Many of the clubs I went to played hip hop and rap, so I don't think I can vouch for the music causing the violence theory.

Many of the black people I met while clubbing were pretty laid back, it was usually the white guys that got into the fights, so I can't say that I agree with some of the racial stereo-typing going on here.

I don't know what the cause is for the recent violence going on downtown...perhaps people are getting dumber?

You know...I never really used to consider downtown Lawrence a dangerous place...but it's beginning to make me want to high-tail it to my car after I close down the shop at night. Anyone know where can I hire a bodyguard?

wow,
didn't know we had an opera-related violence problem...must be Wagner?

sheesh!

who is attracted for the thug-lifestyle shows? do we really want to attract them to our downtown?

some blacks are shocked at the dominence of thug cultural icons in their subculture and media and decry the violence promoted by it.

sure you can list anecdotes without violence, but overall...yeah, shootings at a jazz concert? or God forbid, after "Queen of the Night?" omg!

noticed the guy shot dead was 46, if he's in the thug/crack culture, awefully old for that?
hope they catch the shooter and I hope he gets the death penalty for the message it would send to others tempted to follow his example!
being 46, I wonder if he had a family he left behind; the paper gives us no info on this.

Okay, this whole discussion is horribly funny. I would bet a majority of the persons posting to this blog are at least middle class with a/some college education. I doubt that any of us(myslef included) understand the social problems related to this shooting. I believe the true solution here lies in building our community with education and not bombs/guns. In the last six years, our society of fear/violence has solved zero problems. Yet, our spending on guns increases while spending on education and society decreases. Let's do something about the true source of the problem.

OK, coach. You're not only an idiot you're a bigoted idiot. What the hell does this mean? "I imagine just like all the KC and Topeka shootings it probably went down for something like somebody stepping on anothers shoe, or not showing respect for anothers gold teeth. I'm sure this killing is about something so trivial like that. We will see." I'm sorry, but isn't the majority of killing for trivial reasons? What makes you think that either of these people has gold teeth? Oh...hmm let me see it's because the victim and the shooter were black males. If that's not a racist comment, then I don't know what the hell one is. Do us all a favor and don't post anymore comments unless they add value to the discussion.

Kingman091 your post was very elegantly put. Thank you for being a light in the dark of this forum.