Friday, June 20, 2008

The redress of grievances...

On the issue of the Second Amendment, Illinois has become a blight on the Heartland; a state in the Midwest with worse CCW laws than California, New York, or Massachusetts. At least the latter three states have "may-issue" concealed carry, whereby a friendly local government can issue a toter's permit, even if denizens of the major cities are Sierra Oscar Lima.

Illinois, however, has "no-way-issue" CCW, whereby you have to be a corrupt politician to carry a gun. Sorry, did I say "corrupt" out loud? I meant "elected official".

The gun owners of Illinois, having watched the rest of the nation adopt more sensible carry laws, are becoming ever more frustrated. This July 11th, they're organizing a rally in Chicago, Mordor itself, to protest at the real seat of power in the politics of their state. Among the guest speakers will be former Texas Representative Dr. Suzanna Hupp, a hero of the CCW rights movement.

Wellll . . . . in very small ways. I'm not doing any of the heavy lifting. I'm more of a gofer, but in the words of Bart Simpson when he was forced to work in the burlesque house, I'm just happy to be on the team.

Yeh but - "elected officials" from Illinois are well known to have a vote-deciding contingent of the deceased in their districts.I believe that "Clout" as a Chicago unit of political will is measured as: BBB/KC - BaseBallBats/KneeCap.

remember morton grove, illinois? that's the city that banned handguns completely in 1991 in the hoplophobic (hate that word, it doesn't sound nearly dumb enough) belief that their innert existence was causing a high crime rate...

outraged by such ignorance, a north georgia town decided in 1992 to pass it's own law; that the head of every household should possess a gun and ammunition...later amended for the usual conscientious objectors, it was nevertheless not challenged, and in the 25 years until 2007 remained in effect.

in the interceding years, the violent crime rate in morton grove, ill. soared while in kennesaw, ga. it plunged...and while the passage of the gun requirement in kennesaw earned a lot of derisive coverage and the nickname "gun town usa", little mention has been made on the results and the unscientific but obvious implications...

but i doubt real-world evidence like this or that regarding concealed carry will have much effect on the politics of the antigunners who run illinois...that place is just ill...jtc

In California, we are very democratic, not to mention Democratic. Sean Penn, or I can both get a concealed licence, and all it takes is a 5,000 dollar contribution to the Sheriff Baca's reelection campaign.

Corruption? Oh no, you don't understand! This is just an opportunity to exercise good citizenship and free political speech.

On the Morton Grove knife ban thing, the only even vaguely related mention I can find reference for can be read here. It's buried in the 7th Circuit's ruling affirming the constitutionality of the original handgun ban also extending to include switchblade knives.

Pending a more specific cite, I think the good folks of Morton Grove have been - however deservingly - made the scapegoats in an urban legend.

Alternatively, where can I buy one of these Swiss Army Switchblade Knives?

Further on the knife thing; the specific passage can be found in the court's ruling under: Footnotes1.(B)(1). The pertinent passage reads "... any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by band (sic) pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife ...".

Hope this saves you some time/effort searching on the topic; you seemed above-average nonplussed by the idea. :)

The silly people who run the site I linked to above actually seem to think this whole issue is somehow a good idea. The thought of a whole bunch of links/refer's to them from pro-gun sites amuses me.

I never knew about that switchblade ban in Morton Grove, but that's the same description the state uses, and it's a total ban in state law, so I don't suppose it had much effect. I don't know what they were thinking--were they afraid Illinois was about to legalize switchblades in 1991?I was 13 years old in 1991, so although I knew Illinois had annoying laws, I didn't really know what was up.

I didn't notice if you posted John Kass's column of this week titled " Of course it's fair that they have guns and you don't" A brilliant look into how the politicians are exempt from the laws they created.

”in the interceding years, the violent crime rate in morton grove, ill. soared while in kennesaw, ga. it plunged...and while the passage of the gun requirement in kennesaw earned a lot of derisive coverage and the nickname "gun town usa", little mention has been made on the results and the unscientific but obvious implications...”

Real world evidence is actually a bit different.

Morton Grove, IL is not exactly a place that I think of when someone says "soaring violent crime". That is one of the safest and most boring towns I have ever been to. The handgun ban was purely symbolic, just like Kennesaw’s purely symbolic firearm ordinance.

Also, as of 2003, Kennesaw has a higher crime index than Morton Grove. Between 1999 and 2005, Kennesaw has had 4 murders, Morton Grove: zero.

As for the Swiss Army knife ban, I doubted that was true so I just called up a friend of mine on MGPD and he had never heard of it either.

I think their local laws are ridiculous, but I don’t like hyperbolic rumor repeated as fact.

Morton Grove’s ordinances can be found at: http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Morton%20Grove/index.htm

When the VFW donated the building to the city, it had an indoor firing range in the basement. Part of the donation process was a charter to keep the range open for the next 100 years. Since it is defined as a "sanctioned shooting establishment", you're allowed to transport your unloaded, encased, disassembled, locked weapon to the range and unlock, assemble, un-encase, load and fire!

The Arlington Heights Rifle and Pistol Club has dibs on the range most nights!

It's even better when the Moron, err, "Morton Grove" Womens Club has their monthly time, err, bitch-fest, err, "meetings" upstairs.

You can see 'em wince from the staccatoBANG! in the basement!

BTW, guess where most of the members are from? If you guessed Moron, err, "Morton Grove", pat yourself on the back.

"The handgun ban was purely symbolic, just like Kennesaw’s purely symbolic firearm ordinance."

symbolic? it's the fucking law!

here's one of the articles i read recently; is it wrong?

.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

if you feel comfortable being "symbolically" stripped defenseless by amazingly ignorant and borderline socialist local pols passing bans of your constitutional rights, then certainly you know your abilities best...me, if i was in morton grove, i'd be checking out the house ads around kennesaw; i like their symbolism a hell of a lot better...

"The handgun ban was purely symbolic, just like Kennesaw’s purely symbolic firearm ordinance."

symbolic? it's the fucking law!

Sure, but what did it accomplish? Like a lot of laws, not a whole fucking lot. Crime was not a huge fucking problem in Morton fucking Grove then or now. Handgun ownership was perfectly fucking legal in fucking Kennesaw before their fucking ordinance was passed. It was purely a fucking political stunt.

here's one of the articles i read recently; is it wrong?

Yeah, it’s wrong. Pro-gunners like to pride themselves on having command of the facts and avoiding disingenuous arguments, so when I see this stupid comparison resurrected over and over, it just irks me. It’s kind of pathetic that so many pro-gun people think (hope?) that Morton Grove must be a crime ridden cesspool since the town banned handguns, but the truth is that it never had much crime to begin with and there isn’t much now. When I read stuff like violent crime in Morton Grove “SOARED”, I have to raise the bullshit flag. Soared? What, they apprehended four angry shoplifters this year instead of the usual two? If you are pro-gun and you are trying to show that more guns equals less crime, then for pity’s sake, at least pick an anti-gun town that actually has more violent crime than Kennesaw. Try Evanston, Illinois, instead.

Overall, I think that if we want to advance a pro-gun agenda, then appealing to fear isn’t going to be nearly as effective in the long run as appealing to principle, since the gun issue is just one facet of a much larger struggle that cannot be overcome by simply appealing to people’s base emotions.

wt, the article i referenced contains a fair amount of specific information; rather than your own (flawed) opinion and reasoning you have referenced nothing to counter...post a link to your sources and references if you would like to be taken seriously.

and no number of fucks can ever explain how you can take the passing of fucking laws curtailing your constitutional rights...sheep are led to slaughter gently and in stages.

if the kennesaw law was political posturing then thank God that there are some who are so outraged by the blind idiocy of some local politicians and their constituency that they simply had to publicly rebuke it and condemn it...and those folks did it quite well.

wt, the article i referenced contains a fair amount of specific information; rather than your own (flawed) opinion and reasoning you have referenced nothing to counter...post a link to your sources and references if you would like to be taken seriously.

Taken seriously? Let’s see, the article you linked not only had no author attributed to it, but also no source for the statistics they quote in the article. It took me all of 30 seconds to do a quick search and find stats at city-data.com. Where did WND get these numbers?

Exaggeration, distortion and blatantly disingenuous nonsense are things I normally associate with the anti-gun side. The pro-gun side doesn’t need to do these things, or so I thought.

Although both towns are below the national average, crime, particularly violent crime, (which is what you specified) was still worse in Kennesaw than Morton Grove in 2005 (the last available year for Kennesaw data). If you look at the stats you will notice that as of early 2007, Kennesaw has 200% more sex offenders than Morton Grove! Aren’t statistics fun? And not misleading at all!

In case you missed it, JTC, these numbers are pretty much meaningless, which was my point. Frequency and severity of crime has more complex causes than simple rates of handgun ownership. Don’t believe the hype.

Something else I bet you don’t know is that there is no law preventing any law abiding head of household in Morton Grove from running out to the store and purchasing a 12 gauge and ammunition, thereby being perfectly compliant with the Kennesaw ordinance. Isn’t that funny? So, you see, I can’t really take your (flawed) opinions very seriously.

...and no number of fucks...

I tried to provide an example though overkill, to show that I thought your use of profanity was inappropriate, given that I was perfectly civil up to that point. I guess you missed that point, too. Was it too subtle?

...can ever explain how you can take the passing of fucking laws curtailing your constitutional rights

Don’t change the subject. I stand by my statements. You have no idea what you are talking about. Have a nice day.

"...no amount of "fucks" can ever explain how you can take the passing of fucking laws curtailing your constitutional rights"

and wt's response:

"Don’t change the subject. I stand by my statements."

change the subject? that is the one and only subject...and i note that you have no response...

and further you have still failed to provide any link to any source supporting your protective kneejerk response to humorous critical attack on your cowed provincial brethren, who are after all responsible for and subject to the edicts of the little marxists running that pathetic place...

”in the interceding years, the violent crime rate in morton grove, ill. soared while in kennesaw, ga. it plunged... little mention has been made on the results and the unscientific but obvious implications...”

This is what I was objecting to. You wanted to change the subject to... I’m not sure what.

and further you have still failed to provide any link to any source...

I did, actually, more than one. Now you are just being intentionally obtuse.

...your protective kneejerk response...

You really have no idea what I am talking about or where I am coming from, do you?

This post was about people in Illinois trying to make their state a better place. You’re not contributing anything to that, you’re perfectly content to sit in Florida or Georgia, pat yourself on the back, and tell everyone how superior you are. Good for you. Do you think that any fence sitter in Morton Grove would be convinced of the error of their ways by anything you have said here?

Go ahead, keep on regurgitating nonsense. I’m sure nothing will help you understand.

wt, you have taken personal offense when none was intended...and your vitriole is misplaced.

my original post quoted one of the many articles regarding the morton grove/kennesaw saga, and i editorialized with caustic humor...if mg never had a crime problem then the elected individuals who chose to without any reason restrict your rights then your beef is with them...but you are okay with it as evidenced in your protestation that at least they didn't ban long guns...fortunately for those residents who are more outraged than you, the SC (in something of milquetoast fashion) has now said that gungrabbers such as those in mg cannot usurp the constitution.

your reference to the city profiles at citydata does not mention that the population in mg has been stagnant...no growth at all...for all these years while in the ga town growth has been huge, with the crime rate growing almost not at all (and for several years after the passing of the law did drop significantly). the real point (mine as well as the enlightened pols in kennesaw), was that possession and ownership of handguns by free Americans does not hinder but rather enhances the safety and defense of themselves and their families and does not adversely affect the rate of crime...do you disagree with that?

so again, that you took personal insult from criticism of the reprehensible radicals who run mg is regrettable...but that you defend and refuse to address the real issue; that the dearest of freedoms and constitutional protections are subject to the whims of pathetic patrons of socialism, is the saddest aspect of your correspondence.

tam's original post was in reference to concealed carry; maybe at some point enlightenment on this issue will come for the good citizens of illinois; i do hope so.

in respect of tam's blog and bandwidth, this will be my last word on this, and i think other readers will agree that my points were clearly made.

“if mg never had a crime problem then the elected individuals who chose to without any reason restrict your rights then your beef is with them...but you are okay with it...”

No, I am far from OK with it and I said so at the very beginning, which you continue to conveniently ignore.

And while we are on the subject of rights, what sort of rights were the elected officials of Kennesaw defending when they decreed that every eligible head of household is required, by law, to own a firearm and ammunition? Presumably they could arrest someone for non-compliance, could they not? That would mean that the government can use force or the threat of force to mandate that someone exercise their rights. How does that make any sense, JTC? What would you think of a law that forced everyone in your town to purchase a computer and start blogging, in order to show their steadfast commitment to the First Amendment?

“...as evidenced in your protestation that at least they didn't ban long guns...”

Wrong. I used that to show that your comment that the citizens of Morton Grove were “defenseless”, was an exaggeration. I also pointed out that even as the laws stand right now, a citizen in Morton Grove can be in perfect compliance with the Kennesaw ordinance. Can’t you see how this makes your whole argument seem a bit silly? If you are going to criticize their laws and their crime rates, then it would behoove you to actually know what the laws and crime rates really are.

“...fortunately for those residents who are more outraged than you...”

You’ll have to let me borrow that Outrage-O-Meter of yours, so I can get accurate readings. How much outrage should I be generating?

"...in the ga town growth has been huge, with the crime rate growing almost not at all (and for several years after the passing of the law did drop significantly)"

So? Look, you are the one that wanted to compare the two and now you are whining about town growth? The per capita numbers still support my point, regardless.

"The real point..."

You’re changing the subject again but I’ll humor you.

"... that possession and ownership of handguns by free Americans does not hinder but rather enhances the safety and defense of themselves and their families and does not adversely affect the rate of crime..."

Generally speaking, I would agree. But, despite your best efforts, that was never the point of disagreement. My disagreement with you is that if you want to make that point, the MG vs Kennesaw comparison is a piss poor way of doing it and I am tired of seeing it. It’s simply a very bad example. In this particular case, the lack of handgun ownership or carry in Morton Grove seems to have little or no effect on crime, so it seems very strange and counter-productive for you and others to insist on making this comparison.

To you, places like Morton Grove are mythical, faraway lands full of violent crime and commies. But those people look at claims like yours and dismiss them right off the bat because they have no resemblance to the reality that they know. When they hear people like you tell them that their violence is “soaring” because they are “defenseless”, they laugh.

"...that you took personal insult from criticism of the reprehensible radicals who run mg is regrettable..."

No, JTC, I find it irritating when random people spew profanity at me while making no sense whatsoever.

"...but that you defend and refuse to address the real issue; that the dearest of freedoms and constitutional protections are subject to the whims of pathetic patrons of socialism, is the saddest aspect of your correspondence."

Wrong, again. Although you would like me to, I am not defending that. You keep switching the subject, probably because even you can see that your original position is untenable. None of your arguments are very convincing if they can’t even persuade someone like me, a person who is already staunchly anti-communist and pro-gun. And now you are trying to portray me as some kind of socialist sympathizer. Truly, your grasp of the issues is amazing.

"...maybe at some point enlightenment on this issue will come for the good citizens of illinois; i do hope so."

Really? Because it didn’t sound that way. It sounded like you were basically saying, “That place is hopeless” and urging them to move to Georgia. There are times when I would agree with that sentiment, but it certainly doesn’t do any good to the people of Illinois who are organizing this rally. Is that your idea of helping them make their voices heard?

"in respect of tam's blog and bandwidth, this will be my last word on this, and i think other readers will agree that my points were clearly made."

Personally, I think your points clearly suck, which is what inspired me to write. I think that if anyone else is even reading this sorry exchange, they must be bored to tears. I know I am.