...started to feel more and more like the show claiming a moral superiority that preemptively absolved it from any criticism.

They were getting to be masters of relinquishing any responsibility for the show at all. Armin Tamzarian is evidence enough.

I get why people hate the Armin Tamzarian episode, but there's such a joyous fucked-uppery to it, complete with a moronic status quo ante conclusion, that I love it. It also had echoes of Spider-man's second clone saga to it, reinforcing how messed up that was.

...started to feel more and more like the show claiming a moral superiority that preemptively absolved it from any criticism.

They were getting to be masters of relinquishing any responsibility for the show at all. Armin Tamzarian is evidence enough.

I get why people hate the Armin Tamzarian episode, but there's such a joyous fucked-uppery to it, complete with a moronic status quo ante conclusion, that I love it. It also had echoes of Spider-man's second clone saga to it, reinforcing how messed up that was.

I don't hate the Tamzarian episode, mainly for the same reasons as you—but I DID hate the clone saga. Fuck that shit.

...started to feel more and more like the show claiming a moral superiority that preemptively absolved it from any criticism.

They were getting to be masters of relinquishing any responsibility for the show at all. Armin Tamzarian is evidence enough.

I get why people hate the Armin Tamzarian episode, but there's such a joyous fucked-uppery to it, complete with a moronic status quo ante conclusion, that I love it. It also had echoes of Spider-man's second clone saga to it, reinforcing how messed up that was.

I don't hate the Tamzarian episode, mainly for the same reasons as you—but I DID hate the clone saga. Fuck that shit.

I grew to like the Ben Reilly character, but that was in spite of the editorially cintrived narrative. (He's back, btw, but on the villainish side.)

...started to feel more and more like the show claiming a moral superiority that preemptively absolved it from any criticism.

They were getting to be masters of relinquishing any responsibility for the show at all. Armin Tamzarian is evidence enough.

I get why people hate the Armin Tamzarian episode, but there's such a joyous fucked-uppery to it, complete with a moronic status quo ante conclusion, that I love it. It also had echoes of Spider-man's second clone saga to it, reinforcing how messed up that was.

I don't hate the Tamzarian episode, mainly for the same reasons as you—but I DID hate the clone saga. Fuck that shit.

I grew to like the Ben Reilly character, but that was in spite of the editorially cintrived narrative. (He's back, btw, but on the villainish side.)

Yeah Ben was ok. He played a role in the New Warriors for a while, so I got to read him outside the context of SM. But fuck that fucking piece of shit storyline. It made my heart Marvel's plaything and turned me off spandex comics for 20 years.

They were getting to be masters of relinquishing any responsibility for the show at all. Armin Tamzarian is evidence enough.

I get why people hate the Armin Tamzarian episode, but there's such a joyous fucked-uppery to it, complete with a moronic status quo ante conclusion, that I love it. It also had echoes of Spider-man's second clone saga to it, reinforcing how messed up that was.

I don't hate the Tamzarian episode, mainly for the same reasons as you—but I DID hate the clone saga. Fuck that shit.

I grew to like the Ben Reilly character, but that was in spite of the editorially cintrived narrative. (He's back, btw, but on the villainish side.)

Yeah Ben was ok. He played a role in the New Warriors for a while, so I got to read him outside the context of SM. But fuck that fucking piece of shit storyline. It made my heart Marvel's plaything and turned me off spandex comics for 20 years.

Weirdly, it brought me back. I had quit comics in the mid 80s—pretty much when I found punk—and was in grad school when I heard about this huge controversial story, so I checked it out and ended up getting hooked in spite of it all.

I get why people hate the Armin Tamzarian episode, but there's such a joyous fucked-uppery to it, complete with a moronic status quo ante conclusion, that I love it. It also had echoes of Spider-man's second clone saga to it, reinforcing how messed up that was.

I don't hate the Tamzarian episode, mainly for the same reasons as you—but I DID hate the clone saga. Fuck that shit.

I grew to like the Ben Reilly character, but that was in spite of the editorially cintrived narrative. (He's back, btw, but on the villainish side.)

Yeah Ben was ok. He played a role in the New Warriors for a while, so I got to read him outside the context of SM. But fuck that fucking piece of shit storyline. It made my heart Marvel's plaything and turned me off spandex comics for 20 years.

Weirdly, it brought me back. I had quit comics in the mid 80s—pretty much when I found punk—and was in grad school when I heard about this huge controversial story, so I checked it out and ended up getting hooked in spite of it all.

I was 11 at the time so I felt manipulated—my little boy emotions were fragile. It was at the tail-end of a lot of stories that I thought showed they were really running out ideas already. Plus I thought the writing itself was corny. I was into Cerebus by this time, so was getting a taste of writing that reflected how people actually talk to one another.

I was 11 at the time so I felt manipulated—my little boy emotions were fragile. It was at the tail-end of a lot of stories that I thought showed they were really running out ideas already. Plus I thought the writing itself was corny. I was into Cerebus by this time, so was getting a taste of writing that reflected how people actually talk to one another.

Having the clone survive and return was a neat idea, but, holy macaroni, how it was stretched, distorted, and allowed to rot was a wonderful case study of how awful Marvel was. There was a long blog series shortly after it was done by one of the assistant editors that provided an insider account of how fucked up a simple and fairly short story was turned into something pretty much everyone hated.

I was 11 at the time so I felt manipulated—my little boy emotions were fragile. It was at the tail-end of a lot of stories that I thought showed they were really running out ideas already. Plus I thought the writing itself was corny. I was into Cerebus by this time, so was getting a taste of writing that reflected how people actually talk to one another.

Having the clone survive and return was a neat idea, but, holy macaroni, how it was stretched, distorted, and allowed to rot was a wonderful case study of how awful Marvel was. There was a long blog series shortly after it was done by one of the assistant editors that provided an insider account of how fucked up a simple and fairly short story was turned into something pretty much everyone hated.

Yeah, it lasted like two years or something, right? Storytelling by committee.

I was 11 at the time so I felt manipulated—my little boy emotions were fragile. It was at the tail-end of a lot of stories that I thought showed they were really running out ideas already. Plus I thought the writing itself was corny. I was into Cerebus by this time, so was getting a taste of writing that reflected how people actually talk to one another.

Having the clone survive and return was a neat idea, but, holy macaroni, how it was stretched, distorted, and allowed to rot was a wonderful case study of how awful Marvel was. There was a long blog series shortly after it was done by one of the assistant editors that provided an insider account of how fucked up a simple and fairly short story was turned into something pretty much everyone hated.

Yeah, it lasted like two years or something, right? Storytelling by committee.

I heard about that a few days ago and will certainly check it out. I've wondered from time to time whether The Simpsons got away with a lot of that because it was, on the whole, so damned funny and sharp. We tend to make exceptions for those whose work we adore when, in other people it would be quick condemnation.