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Developer: Heavenly Sword Just Didn't Make Enough Money

The reasons behind making a game multiplatform are obvious, especially these days. With around 73 million total PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 units out there, why limit yourself to only about half?

Eliminating around 50% of the overall sales potential for a product is rarely a good idea, which is exactly what Ninja Theory co-founder Tameem Antoniades told CVG. We know the Heavenly Sword developer is working on Enslaved with Namco Bandai, and they've also got a "top secret project" as well. However, while we're all hoping for a HS sequel, don't expect the mystery title to be exclusive to the PlayStation 3. Said Antoniades:

"It's difficult. Heavenly Sword came out pretty early on the PS3, and we sold, I think, a million and a half copies, and that's still not enough as an independent studio to break even. The publisher potentially breaks even at that point, but the developers don't.

It's just that when so many people have Xbox - I mean over half the market or more has Xbox 360s - why limit yourself to one platform?"

That's about as straightforward of an explanation as one can expect, and we're not about to argue with the logic. As we just said, it makes perfect sense. But there's something...off about his statements, don't you think? When HS launched in 2007, there weren't very many PS3's out there; it would likely be accurate to say there are three times as many now (around 34 million). And if they sold a million and a half with such a low user base installed, would it not be safe to assume they could sell three or four million with a quality sequel? Or even if that's overshooting, what's this about 1.5 million not allowing an independent studio to "break even?" If you make a game that absolutely must sell 2 or 3 million to turn a profit on a system that barely has maybe 7 or 8 million consoles in the world...isn't that, like, really bad business reasoning?

It's more than likely you'll make a lot more money with a multiplatform title. But the reasons stated here arouse some suspicion, I think. And besides, the PS3 exclusives are the elite in the industry today; one would think Ninja Theory would simply want the prestige. Just a thought.

Comments (91 posts)

Maybe their just messing with 360 owner's heads. It's too bad so many great series are selling out the PS3 exclusives. Final Fantasy, MGS, and now Heavenly Sword. I would say that Sony should try to bribe this studio into an exclusivity agreement but I really didn't like the first Heavenly Sword.

Kojima didn't sell out Metal Gear. They get a Raiden spin off we get a real MGS entry on our PSP. Besides MGS2 was ported to the Xbox. It's almost like Koji just throws MS a bone every few games to get them to shut up and go away.

If you watched the E309 MS press conference,it didn't seem like HIdeo was too happy about the game. His speaking sounded quite forced and the smile looked kind of fake imo. The higher ups at Konami probably wanted a multi platform game.

Yea, many developers back in PS2 days claims they have pride in them when developing exclusively for one platform. It's sad to see the next generation, that their pride is sold and worth only the price of 1.5 million copies of a game.

Well i liked the first heavenly sword and i think they accomplished a lot as a developer considering it was their first time working on the ps3... Anyhow, It did sell a lot at the time considering their wasn't a lot of PS3s out there... They'd definitly sell a good 3 million atleast if they were to make a sequel

Making it for both platform will cost like 1.5 as much and if the ps3 version wasn't considered that great then many xbox 360 people will stay away from some cheap port of a ps3 games.Anyway I was thinking about buying it, but now I probably won't. The fact that it might no longer be exclusive, and it probably didn't sell well for a reason lead me to believe I should ignore any game from Ninja Theory, Ltd.I hope they know they just lost a sale

if they put halo in the title, then it might...no it will draw in the xbox crowd no matter how crappy it is. i just hope ninja theory games dont loose their AAA status. but thats the price they pay for greed by going multiplatform. they just dropped from my must buy list to wait and see list.

agreed, its very daft that is you need to sell 2 million copies of a game to break even, why bring out a game on a console when theres only 7 or 8 million around, as i actually think 1.5million copies is good going for a game which was almost a launch game.
The interesting thing is tho if they did a heavenly sword 2 exclusive for the ps3, alot of ppl who missed out on the first heavenly sword would pick the game up as its quite cheap now, so not only would they sell 4 or 5 million copies of heavenly sword 2, they would probally sell a few hundred thousand extra of the first game.

I really enjoyed Heavenly Sword, and honestly, I'm glad I bought it. I can almost firmly say, however, that whatever 'top secret' project they have going, if it's not PS3 exclusive, I probably won't be getting. PS3 exclusives and PC games only for me.

They can keep their 9 GB secret project but in their defense;when you see recycled code (like call of duty)selling an insane amount of copies you follow suit. Maybe its just so they can get money to make a good exclusive...you know, like a stripping to pay for college.

I do agree with you but when we compare the exclusives, most PS3 exclusives make MS's look like multiplats. Most MS exclusives people throw praise on are games made with Unreal and can be done on the PS3 but not the other way around. I bought my 360 and after 2 months I couldn't stop asking myself why. Good thing it RROD before my library grew to big. not that it really would have anyway when the only exclusives are Halo, Gears, and Mass Effect, which are all essentially the same game anyways. Martian Shooters.

To look at 73 million consoles sold and start drooling over the potential profits is childish. You can't look at the total number of consoles sold. You have to look at the number of households that have gamers. Those are your customers. It's a much lower number. A lot of gamers, if not the majority, have both HD consoles or have bought both at some point.

Anyways, I think this guy's lost it and I'm not buying what he's selling.

this reaching out to more users point for profit kindda seems stupid to me, well not really i guess.. profit. then instead of going to 360 also, why not go the wii route too. if they're really after profit then just crank out a bunch of wii games since they apparently dont want to make the best game that they can.

Another good point johnld. The people who are out there for profits are in fact pumping out Wii games. I don't know if it's working for them, but they're trying. Antoniades' reasoning is faulty on many levels.

The reason you limit yourself to one console is because you want to create a title that is of the best quality possible. The question is, would you rather make a title that goes down as epic or would you rather make a title that sells allot. I know what Kojima would choose and has chosen.

Yeah that's true, i do make it seem like that. Sometimes quality and profit are mutually exclusive,thank god they haven't been lately (e.g. Heavy Rain). However in my opinion, if trying to get more sales means going multiplatform then the quality is in jeopardy. Granted, i don't want to make it seem like it's a rule and always the case, there are great multiplats out there but exclusives on either console have a higher chance of being epic.Last edited by Ergi on 3/29/2010 3:34:11 PM

they hollywood video near my house is closing down and they still have new copies of heavenly sword at 40 bucks. but as they get ready to close, they're discounting them. right now i think its 30% but i still wont bite. if it goes to 20 then i'll get it. anything above that is just too high of a price for a game that came out that early in the ps3 cycle, not to mention i already beaten it and just want it in my collection and not really play it.

I'm in the same boat. I've always wanted to pick it up but felt it was far to short of a game without much replay value for me to justify paying full price for it. I've been waiting for it to come down in price or go greatest hits, but even the used copies at EB Games are still selling for close to top dollar.

I know the game was good, but I've bought better, newer games for way less then what they are still asking for Heavenly Sword. (Not used versions either)

Slash the price in half, and sell a million or more copies and make a new one for the PS3 that now has a much larger group of users.

1.5 million x average retail of $50 = $75 million. How much of that ends up with the developer? How much with the publisher, and how much with the retailer?

If a game takes $25 million to develop, the developer needs a minimum of $25 million simply to pay for the development. To show a profit, pay bonuses for good work, and attract the best talent, you really need the developer to be getting 20% or more over and above the actual dev costs. Remember that the publisher is paying for all the manufacture, distribution and marketing of the game, so they'll want a decent number of millions from the game just to break even as well.

If the game was expensive to develop, 1.5 million copies isn't enough. But then again, games that have cost far less than a million to develop have sold millions of copies through PSN. I think that Ninja Theory, and other developers need to carefully consider how much time, effort and money to throw at a game. By all means make a great game, but don't bankrupt yourselves doing it.

"Well, we sold 1.5 million units into a tiny market, and 1.5 million wasn't enough to break even. Because of this we don't think that exclusivity to one platform works and are considering multi-platform."

Yeah, we get that there are a lot of Xbox360s in the US, but you know, globally, it's a wash, anyone who says otherwise simply isn't paying any attention to reality. In fact Globally, the PS3 is pulling away from the 360, but the 'dead weight' of the American 360 market is slowing the pace at which the PS3 can dominate But, hey, who's looking at reality these days?

No, but seriously, we get that when Heavenly Sword came out there were comparatively few PS3s. Actually, the installed base now is something like 6 times what it was when Heavenly Sword launched. Seems like the PS3 in it's own right is now a 6 times bigger market place, and while a developer might not sell 6x1.5 million copies of a game, the odds are that if the game is 'that good' it will sell past 3 million and probably past 4 million too.

Now, that sounds like it would make exclusivity a viable thing - even for an independent studio. Sure bringing in a second team to work on 360 and making a multi-platform game potentially doubles the market. However what is the market for the genre of game? Is is dominated by 360 or PS type gamers? How many compromises in the quality, scope and performance of the game have to be made because it's multi-platform?

At the end of the day I see the financial arguments, as well as the technical ones, and to be honest I think it's pretty much a wash in the sense that bringing in an additional team for the 360 version of a game, along with any compromises on the way, potentially doubles the development cost, and potentially costs some sales due to missed opportunities. Perhaps in pure sales numbers of $$, the numbers look good, but when broken down to actual profit, and when considering the quality of the product, I don't believe that multi-platform is the best choice for a smaller developer. If a studio is big enough that it can absorb some of the additional costs within the existing team, then multi-platform is an easy choice.

Ninja Theory sounds like they are trying to justify going multi-platform, perhaps they already regret the move? It's not like they are the biggest game studio on the block after all.

well, if they tanked, i think sony would buy them anyway. they did make a great game and i dont think sony would let one of those developers bite the dust. kinda makes me wonder why they didnt buy ninja theory. they bought media molecule quick enough.

I don't know johnld. It wouldn't be a wise investment if the perception of the company was that they tanked. Little Big Planet was easily a bigger success then Heavenly Sword. Made sense for Sony to buy Media Molecule. No so much with NT.

Maybe you guys are on to something. Perhaps NT's idea was to make a PS3 exclusive early in it's life in hopes of being bought by Sony. Sony spotted the bad attitude and simply thanked them for the exclusive. Now NT is bitter and wants to go multiplat blaming the PS3 for it's own shortcomings along the way.

Heavenly sword was a great game at the time it came out, the six axis arrow flight control was a lot of fun. Its to bad this game didn't sell more but given that there were so few PS3s available when this game came out that seems like great sales. Now I am sure that development for the PS3 wasn't cheap back in the early stages while they were making HS, I don't remember if they built their own engine or not. So that is probably where most of their cost came from. So now that they have it though, how much would it cost to go back and optimize it to make it better and then do a sequal ... not nearly as much I am guessing. So how's about doing that and giving us a second HS that for sure would make you back the cost of development probably for both games and then some. The number of PS3s has quadrupalled since '07 and the second game could only be exclusive because XBOX doesn't have a six axis controller to do the flight controls.

I loved Heavenly Sword. It was one of the very first games I played when I got my PS3 and it's a shame we may not see a sequel. BUT if they do get around to a sequel, and it goes multiplatform I will buy the PS3 version (unless it gets bayonetta'd).

Not buying a PS3 game that you would otherwise purchase, solely because you're all pissy about it being multiplatform makes no sense. This is counterproductive if you want more PS3 exclusivity. This just sends a message to the devs that 360 owners are more interested in their product. Numbers drive an industry, and if the 360 version of a game sells better, guess where the devs are going to shift their foucs... I don't want this.

I love a good exclusive, and we've had several in the last little while to demonstrate just what our PS3 is capable of. (I'm GOW'ing right now and freakin loving it!) But if a developer needs the safety net of multiple platforms to make the money they need to stay in business and keep pumping out great games for us, then by all means do it!

There have been some stellar multiplatform games in this past year. Maybe Ninja Theory will give us another one. I'd hate to see a good developer suffer or die over brand loyalty.

The Ps3's user base has doubled, maybe even tripled since 2007; so why are they still reluctant to create another game? If I was Sony, I would shell out as much cash needed to keep the game exclusive. Exclusivity is imperative because, in my opinion, what they did in Heavenly Sword can only be done on the PS3. Heavenly Sword has a lot of potential and should not be dropped or downgraded due to money issues.

Screw Ninja Theory and their run of the mill post-apocalyptic Enslaved game. Sony owns the Heavenly Sword IP and should just hand it off too a more capable developer. The Heavenly Sword IP was Ninja Theory's shot at being an elite developer, but now their just going to fade into mediocrity.Last edited by Evil Incarnate on 3/29/2010 2:35:46 PM

Just because Ninja Theory has gone bananas doesn't mean HS is bad (and I recommend any good friend to get this game)

It's sad that Ninja Theory is thinking less about quality and more about money...

Oh well, their games will probably and justly be overshadowed by ps3's AND 360's exclusives*

But hey, it's their choice-----

It's good to know they're not making HS2 since now we can out reach out to Santa Monica and ask them to give a beautiful and DISTINCTIVE Heavenly Sword sequel. Specially since they said they don't know which project to tackle next.

As much as I respect NT for supporting the PS3 early on, I have to say that Ben is right, their logic makes no sense at all. I will not be supporting Enslaved. We shall see about this new super secret game, but Enslaved looks lame. They will be lucky to sell 1.5 million of it by going multiplat.

Meh, I call BULLSPIT! There are what, triple the PS3 owners since then. Not only that but the game and devs have a good rep now. They just want a bigger(HUGE) piecec of the pie. That's fine. JUST BE HONEST ABOUT IT!

It's all relative. I'm sure that ND are quite happy with the 4-ish million units of Uncharted 2. Just as Konami were quite please with about that number of MGS4 sales despite a much smaller install based when the game landed.

I guess it depends whether your aim as a development studio is solely to make lots of money, or to make the best game you can no matter what, or perhaps to balance the two extremes and make a bloody good game that makes a healthy profit. Sony owned first parties have the luxury of leaning more towards making the best game no matter what, and third parties (notably Activision) lean more towards the making money. I think that smaller independent devs need to stick the the middle course and balance the two goals. The better their game is the better it's sales will be, but chasing perfection costs money you can never get back.

Heavenly Sword was a game I wanted, but being a relatively short and shallow game I wasn't going to pay $60 for it. Yet ever since it came out, whenever I check the price it never seems to go down to a more budget friendly price. What gives with that?

Anyways, for a company like Ninja Theory, going multi-platform just makes sense on its face. I hope it turns out well for them.

@Scarecrow: Shallow in the relative sense. I mean let me qualify that by saying I haven't played the game in full, just the demo, with the rest of what I know coming from reviews and other folks who bought/played the game (thus educating my decision to not buy it immediately myself). Compared to the combat in a game like DMC or Ninja Gaiden, or even God of War, the Heavenly Sword demo made the combat feel a lot more basic. By the sounds of things, with the game being short, the archery parts thrown in, and the later stages putting you up against Dynasty-Warriors like numbers, that depth of combat never really develops, and that would have been a reason for me to buy it. I love DMC and Ninja Gaiden.

@brigera: Seems to me that games usually go down in price because there isn't a big demand for the stock that's out there. It may be oversimplifying things, but if a game isn't getting very many sales at its current price point, that's typically when it drops, regardless of whether or not the game has recouped its budget. Shenmue was infamously expensive to create, but it didn't take long for the price of the original game to plummet after the game flopped commercially. I can get a copy of Lair for $18 new. I can pretty much promise you that game didn't do half as well as Heavenly Sword.

Bottom line is that any game that is three years old probably shouldn't still have its original MSRP unless it's some extremely rare hard to find thing. I shouldn't have to wait for a sale. Heavenly Sword is seriously the only game I've ever waited so long for a price drop for.

(Course as I was checking prices while typing this I noticed that Gamestop is having a pretty decent sale and among the discounted items is Heavenly Sword at $30.00 with an extra 10% off available. So I did just buy it. =) )Last edited by AirplanePeanuts on 3/29/2010 7:03:38 PM

"Shallow in the relative sense. I mean let me qualify that by saying I haven't played the game in full, just the demo, with the rest of what I know coming from reviews and other folks who bought/played the game (thus educating my decision to not buy it immediately myself). Compared to the combat in a game like DMC or Ninja Gaiden, or even God of War, the Heavenly Sword demo made the combat feel a lot more basic. By the sounds of things, with the game being short, the archery parts thrown in, and the later stages putting you up against Dynasty-Warriors like numbers, that depth of combat never really develops, and that would have been a reason for me to buy it. I love DMC and Ninja Gaiden."

I never questioned your reason for not getting the game. So reviews or what you have heard of the game don't help you here.

As far as gameplay goes, the game is actually just as complex as God of War/Prince of Persia. There's 3 kinds of attacks, and not all of them work the same against all enemies. Furthermore the more combos you learn the more damage you will deal, thus easier battles (though, pulling off these combos are not always easy. What truly adds even more depth to the gameplay is the aerial combos which if pulled off correctly are your deadliest techniques, since they take you up and away from getting ganged up as you try to pull off combos. The crossbow sections of the game aren't as "generic" as you're trying to portray them. ALL crossbow situations in this game are completely unique and all bring their own challenges. The "dynasty warriors" segment of the game is only at the end of the game, so it's a non-factor in the overallness of the game. I do understand that the game's reviews prompted you not to get the game, which is fine. But you're stating things about that game which are just not true. Shallow? far from it.

Well I'll find out for myself when I get to play it. But even if what you're saying is true, it still doesn't sound like something I'd spend 60 bucks on. Even if the action is as deep as God of War, it's still not as deep as DMC or its ilk, and that's where I start to geek out. A comparison to fighting in Prince of Persia doesn't bode as well to me, since outside of soome boss fights the fighting in those games struck me more as ways to break up platforming sections, not something that would stand on its own.

Of course I've played plenty of action games without the combat of a Devil May Cry and still enjoyed them plenty, but in Heavenly Sword's case it sounded like not only was that level of play not present, but that it was a pretty short experience on top of that. I still wanted to play it, just didn't want to $60 play it, y'know.

But if the combat ends up surprising me by being better than expected, believe me, I'll sing the praises to whoever will hear it.

Ninja Theory is not cool for going multiplat, they think they will sell a relatively small number again when they bring out another PS3 exclusive game, even though the Playstation user base has grown several times over.

So what NT should do is stop the multiplatform crap, even though they think it will earn them a lot of money, the chances are not that big, which means they might as well bet on a Playstation exclusive with the chance of it selling better than the multiplatform.

I still need to play through Heavenly Sword sometime, especially after all the praise I've heard here, makes me think it's a shame that a talented team goes to waste...

Hahaha, oooh the IRONY of it all. You know, yesterday I spent my day rummaging GameStop looking for something new to try out. So I grabbed Heavy Rain... Annnd my eyes caught a glimpse at Heavenly Sword and I decided to pick up a new copy of it, instead of saving an additional $5 on a used 3 year old game that could have tons of damage to it.

I've done my share. I feel better. I really wonder how many people were running this indie studio because 1.5mil doesn't exactly sound like they're going for broke on that figure! 500,000 copies, fine that's absolutely hurtful. 1.5mil?! Didn't break even on that?! Where are their headquarters? Sounds like these guys and gals get paid Topper than Top dollar! :D

If they would make a sequel it would sell like hot cakes now days they are blinded by possibilities and not probabilities. Multi platform, yes possible new potential sales but not too likely if its a good game its a good game and will sell reasonably not major but will make money,a bad game will still get some sales not make all money back but some and the ones who have to justify their purchase and spam about how good it was.

If they were to make it PS3 exclusive they would have more support by SCEA and have padded wallets like wise with MS but the Future is much brighter for PS3 look at the outstanding exclusive titles that have released within the past 2 years majority are terrific and sell well and quality is through the roof.

Maybe it was MS who convinced NT to make Multi platform because look at the line up this year for 360 exclusives sure a handful are looking amazing but that is a handful and just that, seems to me they are focusing too much on XBL arcade more that retail releases, I'm not saying arcade games are not bad I love them, just seems like they are taking the easy way out too much of the time.

With PS3 they can see the growth and full potential of what the game can be.

With 360 you will not see anything you have not already seen before, A few new modes and such but its already been done, and the awe factor is not anywhere around these days for the console.

and 1.5 Million copies sold they should be patting them selfs on the back with only releasing Kung fu Chaos with their old name before Heavenly Sword. With heavenly sword they won a few honors nominated for five Develop Industry Excellence Awards for the game including best new IP, visual arts, audio accomplishment, technical innovation, and best independent developer. lol sorry for rambling on

wait so they sold 1.5 million units at 60 bucks each (use 60 as its the cheapest other countries pay much more than that but im sure its safe to say most copies would of been from the US.)so 1.5M * 60 bucks would give them 90M.im sure its safe to say it did not cost them 90M to make the game, cover costs and publishing costs.

this is really whats irking me about the industry today, publishers are getting so fu**ing greedy its not funny!now making enough cash for a Bentley is not enough they need 4!like ubisoft with their BS DRM, or EAs pathetic attempt to get their customers to pay for demos.everythings about money, money, money these days.i know customer satisfaction wont pay the bills, but heres a little proposition for ya.

a korean company made a online MMO RPG 2 years ago, it released mid last year and playing the game is free, but there are certain upgrades you must pay for if you want them.now they have made more money than allot of games sold at the same time last year.goes to prove you dont have to charge a arm and a leg for something to make money.a free game can net you more cash than a expensive one.

this is why ps1 games will ALWAYS! be better than ps3 games.because developers back then had a passion and made a game because they wanted to, they would do anything to make their dream come true.now games are being made just as a cash cow!no passion or effort is going into their making.

The studio does not get the 100% of the sales, it is a far lower percentage than that.

Have to say it is a lame and weak excuse by them, the PS3 market is a totally different beast now to when Heavenly Sword was released, this game should remain exclusive. It could easily sell enough to make a healthy profit, boosting sale's of the first one in the process.