Notes (2018)

I am in the process of trying to map out some of the Mains within Charted Space, and I have several questions...Bear with me….

I might point out, Steve, that there is a lot of overlap in routes. That's ok. Just be aware that some routes might have multiple different names to different cultures and races. Just the usual Trav chaos.

Yes, I have noted that already. Having said that and looking at the great amount of data that has already been generated within published data and my own efforts there will certainly be a great amount of overlap. 09:02, 2 February 2018 (EST)

A search for the Greater Annililik Run gives you Trojan Reach, Reft, Deneb, Corridor, Vland, Lishun as well as Core sectors. Since this is a “Run”, I suppose it wouldn’t be a J-1 Main, but rather a J-2 route (run). Does anyone have a published reference to this term?

A search for the Annililik Triangle gives you, Vland, Lishun as well as Core sectors, with no relevant Main that hits those sectors. Could we suggests that this is a combination of j-1 mains? Does anyone have a published reference to this term?

I am aware of Annililik Run, the book, but I can’t seem to locate my copy right now. So any help would be appreciated.

My primary reason to post this in the forum, rather than on the Lishun Sector page is because I anticipate further questions as I work way way through Charted Space.

I just did a search through the Annililik Run book, but it contains no other references. The book title really refers to the main ship (The Annililik: 600 Tons, J4, M2) and it's travels from Vland to Core. The book itself contains no astrographic data, just a collection of worlds to visit and have adventures on. It makes exactly one reference to "Annililik Run", with the implication it is the trip between Vland and Core.

Every 4 years a competition, synonymous with the Run, is held in which competing teams have to travel as quickly and profitably as they can from Vland to Capital. Played either as a competition between PCs, or as PCs against referee run adversaries ( Wacky Races in space? ) the PCs keep those deals and jumps coming fast.

Ships have been disappearing for years, but recently so may have gone that traders are afraid to complete the Run. The PCs are recruited by a world desperate to see trade restored to find out just what is going on.

Thinking about the "tail end" of the run as the point of the triangle, widening to about 6 hexes in width at the border between Core and Lishun.; at the rimward end of the Vilani main.

Hinterworlds is done; 9000+ plus systems; updated the spreadsheet with the "current" names for clusters; posted to G-drive.

Set up arbitrary size parameters with matching map colorization and updated all sector maps completed:

Large Main = 250+

Medium Main = 100-250

Small Main = 45-100

Large Cluster = 25-45

Medium Cluster = 10-25

Small Cluster = 5-10

14 sectors to go, if I want to include the Solomani Rim into the Second Survey Atlas; planning on printing a couple of coffee-table sized (11x17) limited editions and planning for legal sized (8.5x14) final product at about 90 pages.

Thomas put the kibosh on it at the time and I acceded, later updating all sectors except those on the fringes of Charted Space.

I think a system of trade route differentiation is important and I like your work. It's something that needs to be done, but it will require being ready to defy the grognard naysayers.

It's important to differentiate the astronomic (naturally occurring scientific groupings) systems and the socionomic (sophont-derived trade routes) groupings. There is overlap and that's hard for some to grasp.

Tjoneslo, there is overlap in the two measurements, the economic and the astrographic. They overlap. They are not mutually exclusive.

I've spoken with most of the Inner Circle about this and you are one of the only folks, a distinct minority, who finds it confusing.

And Steve has come across a very similar grouping on his own. So have dozens of other fans. It makes sense to a majority of the demographic.

Of course, Clusters and Mains do not determine trade flow, but they are almost a precondition for strong economics since the cost of constructing Jump Bridges is quite high. A bigger connected network makes it possible for greater, more prosperous interstellar economy. And what isn't settled will be filled in by explorers. The Terran-Vilani Wars are a vibrant example of that. Sophonts fill in habitable space. And even uninhabitable space if there is a draw, especially a nexus world (crossroads) draw.

This is agreeable with AOTI, the novel, and multiple conversations with MWM.

While clusters preexist sophonts, familial names often come from sophonts. There is a relationship that overlaps the astrographic and the socioeconomic. It's just not absolute or well-defined like most of Traveller.

Now Ssteve's definitions of mains and clusters is awesome and I heartily endorse the incorporation of them into the wiki.

Finally if you have any insight into how Mains and clusters influence trade and economics I would be really interested. The only discussions I've ever seen describing the link does so in most vague handwaviest terms.

There is a subtle but important difference between your description and Steve's.

The Trade map key, as I stated above, describes in detail the economic relationships between worlds. It defines terms (like "Cyan Line Main Route"), and and map icons for these details. By linking to the trade map key page and using terms from that page (like "Blue & Cyan Lines") you are proposing, or at least strongly implying, a discussion about the economics, and relations between worlds.

Conversely, if you were linking to a page like Main, and using terms like main or cluster, you are proposing, or implying, a discussion about the physical relationship of the system in an area.

Since these two things are orthogonal concepts, that is related in only the loosest terms if at all, combining the two into one place causes confusion. Adding to the confusion would be your use of the "Blue & Cyan Lines" to describe a "Greater Main". The only map on the Wiki which uses blue and/or cyan lines are the trade maps. Indeed, none of the available Traveller maps use blue and/or cyan line to show mains or clusters. The trade maps used lines of those colors to indicate specific volumes of trade between specific worlds. So using one thing (trade map line colors) for another (mains and clusters) makes people confused.

You understand the differences because you came up with it. But you should take a minute to approach this from the idea of someone who has never see this before.

Finally, the canon definitions of the Mains only make reference to the abilty to travel along them with Jump-1 ships. There are no references, in any version of Traveller rules, in any of the extended published canon, or in the real world economics, that the mains serve as trade routes, and that trade routes follow the mains. If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd really like to see that quoted chapter and verse.

You are reading a lot into this. I am starting to understand why some of the older contributors told me the stories that they did.

Yes, tl;dr -> Trade routes != mains

However, there is overlap between them. The color coding is not the entire line, but it does represent significant portions of it.

Ever heard of triangular trade?

I recommend not making assumptions about implications, propositions, guesses, or other things that haven't been said. You are reading a lot into this that hasn't been said. It's the same with your interpretations of T5 that aren't set in stone one way or another. What confuses you does not confuse all or even significant numbers of others.

Yes, the canon definitions of the Mains only make reference to the ability to travel along them with Jump-1 ships.

Yes, we are tasked to explore what J-2 mains are called or even J-6's...

At J-1, a main or cluster basically is a trade route. It changes after J-1...

TJL: I'd really like to see that quoted chapter and verse.

Of course, there is very little, in the big picture, that we can quote chapter and verse. Traveller is often veneer when it comes to the nuts and bolts of worldbuilding.

MWM has tasked us to experiment with these things. He even appointed someone to work on these things and changed out leadership in connection with it.

TJL: But you should take a minute to approach this from the idea of someone who has never see this before.

MS: I've learned that I simply don't have the ability to explain things to someone in a heavy-duty engineering or computer programming mindset. They have to be able to redefine their constants to see new code. Otherwise, it's all wasted effort. C+ avails me not at all explaining matters to older PASCAL and BASIC programmers. New ideas necessitate open-minded approaches to changes. Insisting on defining all concepts of Russian into English doesn't work. Some things don't translate.

Thomas, when you really want to understand instead of your current state of perennial confusion, break down and call me. We will speak voice to voice as two people making a connection, not two faceless and voiceless beings, trying to make an impossible connection, that necessitates a different communications medium. I'll even meet you one of these days and buy your a beer. Your call.

Hello everyone! And hello to you Ssteve! My name is Ensign Phillips (if you have a military background please feel free to refer to me as the FNG :-)). Maksim-Smelchak and Tjoneslo warmly welcomed me to the Wiki a few days ago and, once I expressed an interest in Mains, Traces and Clusters, pointed me in this direction. I wanted to jump in and let you all see an example of what I have started (using Word because so far I am hopeless at modifying the Wiki) in the Daibei and (in a few cases) Reaver's Deep Sectors.

My goal when I started this was to catalogue the various groupings in the Sector at a VERY high level (using only the information provided by the Traveller Map and the Wiki) and not doing anything that might be construed as a violation of canon. The only exception to this is; I took the liberty of naming the Mains or Clusters/Traces (you will see an example of this in my provided example below). I am now also interested in taking the next step and adding these entries to the Wiki entries for both the Sectors and Sub Sectors. Ok, enough talking, below is what I have started, and btw, I am completely receptive to criticism on this as well as modifying/adding to what I am already putting together. Just want to pitch in and help add information to a Wiki about a subject I have dearly loved over the years.

The Gerim Trace: A cluster of twelve worlds, five of which lie in the Nightrim Subsector (Kaagin, Saint George, Scapa, Sheffield and Shetland). The remaining seven worlds lie in the Caledon Subsector (Bryn, Doom, Gerim, Kolath, Kurat, Mer and Rock). Four of the worlds belonging to the trace lie outside Imperial borders (Doom, Kolath, Kurat and Rock). The cluster is named for the world Gerim (Caledon, 2416). This planet was annexed in the year 658 from the Kolan Hegemony for a sizable cash grant to the Hegemonic government as well as completion of an X-Boat route to the world.

The highest population world in the cluster is Saint George with approximately thirty billion inhabitants. The lowest population world in the cluster is Arthur with approximately one hundred inhabitants.

Hello again everyone! Ok, so I couldn't wait! Patience has never been my strong suit. I added The Petzina Cluster to the wiki. I used the Tukera Cluster as a template and tried to stick as closely as I could to it's formatting. Take a look and let me know how it looks and what else I need to do to make it work.

I sure don't, I apologize. I also included the word "The" when entering my data. I will go back and rectify that immediately. I think I got the formatting right. I don't see any red words in all that I have checked. No rush on this Sir, I understand you have a life too. I am just excited to be helping with the Wiki! I'll be logging off for the night after making the corrections so you have a great evening and I will look for your messages tomorrow.

Well, if "The" is really part of the name it is fine to include. For example The Barrens (Al I) Subsector is valid. But otherwise, yes please don't add the article to titles. Otherwise everything looks great. I look forward to more of your additions to the Wiki. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:12, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

I logged off planning to correct the "The" error on all the relevant pages tomorrow. But it nagged at me like a sore tooth, so I went ahead and took care of the correction just now. I think the Petzina Cluster is now complete. I have a cluster entry and the cluster is now linked to all affected Sectors, Subsectors and Worlds. You may wish to delete the page "The Petzina Cluster" as it is now redundant. Thanks for the kind words Tjoneslo and I am looking forward to fleshing out the Mains et al in Daibei over the next few weeks. Ok, now I am REALLY hitting the sack! Have a great night all. Oh, PS, if you see anything I need to correct or have any ideas on things you would like to add, please let me know.

Maksim is usually the one who does the article reformatting. He as a whole set of templates for each article which he can show to you, and update the articles as needed. Maksim, and some other contributors have a title or two for adding to Template:Sources for the articles they worked on. Think about what yours should be. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:04, 31 August 2018 (EDT)

Your title can be a nobility card or one of your own choosing. Marquis is usually the most that we allot to a noble unless they have a card otherwise.

My pleasure! Nan, no nobility for me, I work for a living :-)! Thank you so much for uploading my Gerim Trace data. I was going to tackle entering that this morning when I logged in.

I did take the liberty to edit both the Gerim Trace and Petzina Cluster data so that they closely match each other appearance wise. I also updated all of the mainworlds of both clusters to reflect that they were part of their respective clusters.

If, after giving these revisions a once over, you approve of the formatting then I will plan on using this format for all future entries on the Wiki.

Thank you both for your kind words and encouragement. I'll quit bombarding you both with chatter from this point forward as I move forward to getting all the various Mains in Daibei set up. If you see something I need to address of course drop me a line. Take care of yourselves.

Khakhan Track (2018)

Good afternoon My Lord. First things first. I completed the addition of a new cluster, the Khakhan Track and its one branch, the Diablo Passage. One note:

I did not create a separate entry for the Diablo Passage. Where necessary I just added a line saying the Passage was a branch of the Track. You can take a look at the Reaver's Deep Sector entry, the Drexilthar Subsector entry and the planet Diablo entry to see examples of this. I just did not think we needed a confusing separate entry when every note about it is linked to it's detailed description under the main Track entry. Let me know if that works.

All Sectors. Subsectors and Worlds have been updated with the necessary Cluster information.

I do not know what CotI is so I do not know how to set up and account. Do you happen to have a link or have any guidance on how I set such a thing up?

As far as a rank, Let's go with the Rank Structure for Scouts in GURPS Traveller: First In (p.26). I would be honored to hold a rank of Junior Administrator attached to Imperial Grand Survey Office. That corresponds roughly to the Naval rank of Ensign and is more than sufficient a title for the likes of me. After all, don't want to sully the honor of the Scouts by promoting someone of my questionable character to any exalted rank :-)!!! I think my fingers are done for the day so best to you and yours My Lord and have a wonderful holiday weekend (if you hail from a land where it is one of course)!

Notes (2018-09)

Good afternoon Maksim.

I created a build out of the Diablo's Passage and updated all affected Sectors, Subsectors and Worlds. I added the "'s" to the arm's name because the "Devil's" Passage was a temptation I just could not resist :-)! The Khakhan Track should be complete at this point.

I also edited an existing entry for the Ashima Cluster in the Urlaqqash and Zhemi Subsectors. So that cluster of six Worlds and the affected Sectors and Subsectors are updated as well.

Please take a look at Sineli (world). The link redirects to a Wiki page called Lopadusa. Just wanted to make sure that was correct since this is a variance from the Traveller Map.

Thank you for the information concerning CotI. I will get that set up ASAP and let you know when I have done so.

That's it for now. Hope you and yours are well and take care of yourself.

Sorry for the silence over the last few days. I have completed all data entry for the Daibei Rimward Corridor. I will in the next 24-48 hours wrap up the one arm and two clusters associated with the Corridor.

Welcome back Ssteve! The Reaver's Deep entries are looking good! I am done with the Reaver's Deep Sector (I was only working on those clusters/traces that bordered or were in Imperial Space and I wrapped them a few days ago). Hopefully that will reduce or eliminate any overlap issues. Let me know if you need me to help with anything.

I will get off my butt later today and get my CotI account set up Maksim-Smelchak. I won't fib, it's pure procrastination on my part. Thanks, btw, for setting up the Zhemi Arm entry as well as the Kuguuri and Dudin Clusters. As mentioned before, I will be fleshing them out shortly.

That's it for now. Hope all is well with everyone and again, welcome back Ssteve!

Imili Trace (2018)

-Good evening Maksim.

I had a little burst of energy so I went ahead and created the Imili Trace in the Edge and Alun Subsectors. All affected Sectors, Subsectors and Worlds should be updated.

I also edited my original entry (Petzina Cluster)to tweek it's appearance and make it look more like the later entries. I think I now have the uniformity in formatting/appearance I need to really begin cranking these out.

I ran out of steam today and only got a small cluster and a equally small rift catalogued.

I am looking forward to the template you described for the astrographic feature. I entered the data in the world entries for the Bridge but I am still missing something in the creation of categories that prevent the world articles to populate the Bridge entry. I see you did so so again thank you for your help. I will get this eventually. I am slow, but then again I am predictably slow... :-).

We need to set up a separate world entry for Tremor, Daibei Sector, Outback Subsector, 1616. That will allow me to knock out the 6 world cluster located on the trailing edge of the Outback Subsector.

I know, all I am good for, complain, complain, complain and oh yeah, more work for you!
Thanks as always and have a fantastic evening Sir!

It appears I am moving into sections of the Sector with higher star density so I expect to be dealing with groupings that contain more stars. I'm looking forward to it! Nothing else at this point so let me know if you need me to do anything else otherwise I shall keep buggering on as the British say. Take care of yourself!

Will do on the buggering on bit! I am trying to knock out one or two mains et al a day until I get Daibei done. Can't promise to hold that pace everyday but it is what I am striving for.

FYI I am now copying the entirety of a previous entry and then editing it as necessary for a new main or trace. That way I am starting to get some uniformity to the entry. I have two questions about my entries but I will text those separately.

Erin's Star (2018)

Looks like we have a bit of a snafu involving Erin's Star (Standish/Daibei, 1901 on the Rimward Link/Zazish Expanse) and Mater (Amdani/Daibei, 1819 in the (just created) Udo Tract)).

When I went to enter the standard "== Description (Astrography & Planetology) == The world is part of the Udo Tract." line on Mater's world information screen it redirected me to the Erin's Star world information screen showing the world was on the Rimward Main/Zazish Expanse.

I think we need to have two Erin's Star world entries, one for the Standish/Daibei, 1901 mainworld and one (an AKA entry) for the Mater mainworld located in Amdani/Daibei, 1819. Is that possible?

In any case I hope all is well and I will look for your response. Take care of yourself.

Notes (2018-Sept-22)

Busy day today! I got a lot accomplished. Only one more cluster/trace to go and Daibei is completely catalogued! It's a big one though (some 37 systems) so I may tackle that later tonight or tomorrow.

Ssteve: It was great to talk with you. In reference to your request to provide the names for those mains/traces/clusters that you have separately named. Be advised I have completely cross referenced all of my entries at the Sector, Subsector and World Level. So if you have a Daibei main et al in your system that is named for any of those three things, you can just click on the relevant entry in the wiki and see the name I assigned the main/trace/cluster too.

Nothing more from my end. Once I am done I will be going back to each entry and making sure to correct any typos or omissions on my part. I will keep you all posted. Hope everyone is doing well and best to you and yours!

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 174:49, 21 September 2018 (EDT)

Every grouping of 5 or more mainworlds that lay in full or in part in the Daibei Sector are now named and cross referenced at the Sector, Subsector and World level. 2 mains, 35 clusters/traces and one rift. Put a fork in me I am done! Hope all is well with everyone and talk soon.