Quote:
Originally Posted by 3cuties
Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

almadianna:
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.

I think the problem lies in the fact that "well-informed" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Some women read the What to Expect series and consider themselves "well-informed". Some simply just don't KNOW to question what their docs tell them. Some are so busy struggling to survive that sitting down to Google something or going to a public library is simply out of the question. And then there's us MDC mamas who question everyone and everything

Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.

And some people just simply don't WANT to know. They'd prefer to continue on living in their little epidurals-are-safe-lah-lah-lah world and they get really angry if you disrupt that bubble, even if it isn't THEIR bubble you're disrupting. I was accused of fear-mongering just yesterday on another (non MDC) board because I gave a mother a few facts about c-section risks. I find this a lot on mainstream boards with similar topics: breastfeeding, induction, caesarean, parenting, etc. You name it, there's a controversy. And if you have FACTS to support your statements, you are dismissed as using "fear techniques" or "scare tactics" or compared to a certain group of WW II soldiers.

I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.

We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.

We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.

So how is that productive? To blame women who get caught up in it? Instead of critiquing what is the cause? How does that win women over or convince them? It doesn't.

Pushed, Business of Being Born, A Thinking Women's Guide -- all approach it in a way that looks at the systems and critques the system. It does not lay blame on the individual -- why? Because the problem is bigger than the individual. No one is going around "blaming" society as you say. Your argument that there are options and information and libraries does not get past my argument and others -- what about women who don't even know to look for the information? Who do not know to question? They won't go there b/c it doesn't occur to them.

But I just do not see it being productive to vent about women who get epidurals. If a woman who was considering questioning the system ventured onto MDC and saw this thread? How would she feel?

Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.

Jen

this is why i wouldnt even want them giving out information about choices to women, i dont trust them.

So how is that productive? To blame women who get caught up in it? Instead of critiquing what is the cause? How does that win women over or convince them? It doesn't.

Pushed, Business of Being Born, A Thinking Women's Guide -- all approach it in a way that looks at the systems and critques the system. It does not lay blame on the individual -- why? Because the problem is bigger than the individual. No one is going around "blaming" society as you say. Your argument that there are options and information and libraries does not get past my argument and others -- what about women who don't even know to look for the information? Who do not know to question? They won't go there b/c it doesn't occur to them.

But I just do not see it being productive to vent about women who get epidurals. If a woman who was considering questioning the system ventured onto MDC and saw this thread? How would she feel?

I dont think anyone is NOT critiquing it, but it is also being said that we should take control. Take it back.

I dont understand how someone would NOT question it, it is something that is a reflex in human beings... this making sure that we survive. It is instinctual. Isnt it?

If a women who was thinking about questioning the system saw this she would feel validated, that she is right in her decision to not just let people tell her what to do.

Not one who has perhaps had an elective induction or epidural gone bad. Your posts already feel attacking to me in that respect.

If she had a bad experience and is looking for a different experience (which is what I think you mean) I dont see how she would feel attacked at all. She probably is here because she is looking for something better and more information... my posts have done nothing more than applaud this.

If she had a bad experience and is looking for a different experience (which is what I think you mean) I dont see how she would feel attacked at all. She probably is here because she is looking for something better and more information... my posts have done nothing more than applaud this.

you dont think that someone who didnt know any better would admit that their experience could have been avoided if they did know better?

Most of my friends who had bad experience and have now turned to the dark side (lol) readily admit that it was all based on their choices. Hell the things that went wrong in my case I readily admit that it was all me not finding information about it (mostly about jaundice in newborns and how to handle it). I dont see why this taking responsibility thing is a bad word.

you dont think that someone who didnt know any better would admit that their experience could have been avoided if they did know better?

Most of my friends who had bad experience and have now turned to the dark side (lol) readily admit that it was all based on their choices. Hell the things that went wrong in my case I readily admit that it was all me not finding information about it (mostly about jaundice in newborns and how to handle it). I dont see why this taking responsibility thing is a bad word.

Maybe it could have been avoided, it is not a definite nothing is. But that is not the point, the blame and critique does not belong on them.

In 1999 when I hired a midwife and told him I wanted a natural birth, all he had to do (because he had all the experience and knowledge) was to ask me -- great, how do you plan to do this? How are you preparing? But he didn't -- so I assumed that was a validation of my choice. I told him I was taking the class at the hospital and they taught Lamazae breathing -- he said great. He could of said/done more. He could have offered me more information. Because his office that I saw him at was an outpost at the Planned Parenthood (where I received my prenatal care) there were no posters or information on preparing for natural birth that one often sees in a midwife's office. He knew it was my first birth. So yes, I do hold him responsible for not giving me the necessary education. Ultimately, the epidural was the only intervention (including IV of course) that I had in a very long difficult posterior labor, for which I am so thankful to him. But he had all the power and info and he did not share it. Could I have done research? I don't know if it existed in 1999 on the internet, maybe. I know the Bradley book was written decades ago, but my husband and I were separated at the time so I do not know if that would have appealed to me. Anyway, perhaps I could have avoided it, perhaps. But most women go to a careprovider for a reason -- for their knowledge and education -- and in my scenario he just did not share it.

I did my first time around. Where did it come from? The idea of squeezing a watermelon out my bottom! PAIN! I was intensely afraid of the pain. Even the idea of the pain. Is that really so hard to understand???

To be honest, it wasn't until after I had DS and met some really cool moms in my neighborhood that were pretty crunchy . . . . had homebirthed . . .etc. . . . . that I could even conceive of NOT wanting one?

Really, I am still amazed at women who go in to childbirth more motivated by not having pain relief than by avoiding the pain?

I ended up with three epidurals - one for each birth. The first one I wanted from thetime I got pregnant. while I was crunchy in many ways, at that time I was of the "I wouldn't get dental work without pain relief, why the the hell would I push something that big out of my yoni without something to take the edge off?" school of thought. I figured I'd play it by ear, but didn't really do any research on med free birth until the very end. When labor hit me, it hit me hard and I got one soon after checking in.

With DD, I planned a natural birth but between the back labor and the hospitals monitoring rule about being on the monitor 20 minutes of every hour and the anisthesiologist who stopped by "to say hi" while I was in transition, I ended up getting one.

With DS2, I planned a medfree birth center birth. He came early and I was totally unprepared. My then 27 month old (and then 4 yo) were at the hospital with dh and I (too early for the birth center) and we couldn't get in touch with my mom to get them. Everytime I moaned through a cxn, dd would cry, the cxn would hurt more, dh couldn't figure out whether to comfort her or me, and it was a big clusterf*ck. I decided on an epi and a bout 5 minutes after it took affect, my mom came to ake the kids and about 10 minuites later, DS2 was crowning. It's sort of annoying how close I got to a med free birth.

I did my first time around. Where did it come from? The idea of squeezing a watermelon out my bottom! PAIN! I was intensely afraid of the pain. Even the idea of the pain. Is that really so hard to understand???

To be honest, it wasn't until after I had DS and met some really cool moms in my neighborhood that were pretty crunchy . . . . had homebirthed . . .etc. . . . . that I could even conceive of NOT wanting one?

Really, I am still amazed at women who go in to childbirth more motivated by not having pain relief than by avoiding the pain?

As the original poster, I wanted to chime in to let everyone know that I'm still reading everyone's replies and to clarify my original question.

What was my intent? Really, to understand someone else's perspective. I know where I'm coming from (pro med-free birth), and I was looking for first-hand experiences to better understand other moms' experiences.

When my husband's friend got pregnant, I sent her a lovingly written letter (no scary, fear-inducing stuff, just the positives that people rarely disclose about labor and birth), as well as Ina May's Guide to Childbirth and Birthing From Within. I shared portions of our personal story and provided information.

Why did I reach out to her and her husband? There are hardly adequate analogies to make between birth and any other life event. But...if I had just hiked an amazing trail (both unexpectedly treacherous and unexpectedly awe-inspiring at the same time) and passed another group on the way back down the trail, my conscience would at least urge me to pass the information along to the other group of hikers. I would feel negligent otherwise.

With my first I was young, uneducated, and very fearful. It was a 36 hour labor and at some point I was exhausted and scared, so I got the epidural for the last 4 hours of labor. It was my intent to go without, not because I believed in the benefits and that it was healthier, but I felt I was supposed to prove I could handle it. I was disappointed I "gave in."

With my 2nd I took the approach that I was going to get the epidural as soon as I was the least bit uncomfortable because afterall "you don't get a medal." Only that was the birth that taught me so much!

Because of my previous experience I wanted to stay home as long as possible with my 2nd. It turned out to be a quick labor and we almost didn't get to the hospital in time, leaving me without my epidural.

After the birth I felt fantastic, my baby was alert and latched on easily, I was able to bond with her....all the things I struggled with after my first. I also learned that birth is not scary and terribly painful. It is painful, but I was strong enough, I could cope, and it was not unbearable. I felt empowered!

I finally sought the information I needed, learned that the medical community had not told me the whole story. I have read and read and finally feel like I can make an educated decision about my 3rd birth.

I'm looking forward to my next birth! It will be our first attempted homebirth.

I prepared for a natural childbirth and after 16 hours of labor with absolutely no progression downward from the baby and incredible AMAZING pain, I had my first epidural of the labor.

What we didn't know was that I had a nerve tumor the size of a grapefruit growing off my S2 nerve (benign). Talk about being on my last nerve- I was in a WORLD of hurt. No one knew that's what was going on and that's why the baby never dropped.

The epi failed after just 4 hours, then I had a spinal which didn't "take" and then another epi that lasted just 45 minutes. I felt all of the pushing stage, and the stitches afterwards.

As for next time... they've fully removed my tumor now via full abdominal incision. I debate whether or not I want to do it medicated next time. There's never a guarantee the epidural is going to work (as in my case).

I didn't "sign up" for an epidural. I went into dd's birth wanting to be unmedicated. However, I started having contractions and either they came on very fast or I didn't notice the earlier stages. We were out to dinner and by the time I got home, passed my plug and had "show" I was completely freaked out (10pm). I remember clearly begging dh to get me to the hospital in time for an epidural.

Now, in retrospect, it would have been nice for him to try and calm me down and work through the labor, but I understand that he got just as freaked out as me and we wound up at the hospital (too early, 1cm dilated). My water broke when they checked me, I had an epi at 2am....at 7am they started pit telling me I wasn't contracting (which I insisted I was) and dd was born at 9:16 after 10m of pushing.

I am entering this birth with resolve NOT to have an epidural.....but I can understand being taking by suprise during a first labor, and hearing horror stories from others with the only "nice" outcome being an epidural may be enough to sway some people.

Happy Mommy to one amazing girl (11y) and one sweet boy (7y), and wife to DH since 7/03 : :