Alternate self defense weapons ?

I recently came far closer to having to draw my .45 than i liked.
Even tho my potential assailant was within inches of my face and aggressively threatening to take my life, i was cool headed enough to see him as a blowhard with anger issues. I calmly called his bluff and he crawled away like the coward he was/is.
Anyhow, it got me to thinking about alternate, non-lethal self defense. Not only on the street but in my home as well.
I'm thinking of four avenues.
Tactical flashlights, fire extinguishers, tazers and pepper sprays.
Anyone have tactical knowledge and or experience in the capabilities and or use of these items ?

Not sure about fire extiguishers unless you intend to bludgeon your opponent with one. Certainly does not appear to lend itself to "carry".

The tac flashlight is probably the most flexible and easiest to justify, but IMO does require some basic hand-to-hand skills to use effectivly. Another "impact" option that has come up here before is a cane or walking stick. The ADA makes it almost impossible to deny anyone the right to carry one, and if you know what you are doing with them they offer a lot of options for both offense and defense.

Be sure to check your local and state laws regarding tazers and pepper spray, as they are somethimes as strictly regulates as actual firearms. Also, even though "non-leathal" use of either would legally be considered at least assault, so you would need to clearly justify their use if it ever came to it.

Jim, West PA

February 6, 2013, 12:46 PM

I should have been more specific Mike in that a fire extinguisher is for in home use only. I've read that they can imobilize an attacker in a closed environment because they remove all usable oxygen from the area.

mdauben

February 6, 2013, 12:56 PM

I've read that they can imobilize an attacker in a closed environment because they remove all usable oxygen from the area.

Not sure if that would actually work, and if it did wouldn't you be effected, too? In any case, I think with an "in home" scenario where you don't need to justify to an LEO why you are carrying something, that "expedient" weapons such as that would not be my first choice. You would not have to worry about any "carry" restrictions on the tazer or pepper spray in that case.

Having someone break into your home, however, seems to me to up the game to "fear for my life" which would justify lethal force. Certainly its always good to have a range of options to chose from, but be sure don't endanger your own life by being hesitant to employ lethal force when it is justified.

Just my 2¢ ;)

NG VI

February 6, 2013, 01:37 PM

Spray.

I don't know about the fire extinguisher as anything but a bludgeoning weapon.

If you can easily carry a nice flashlight you might as well, it's like a small or medium sized knife in that there are no shortage of daily occurrences where you would be much better off with one handy. Not sure I'd want to carry around a flashlight large enough to be a 'good' weapon either though.

I think spray is great because it is a pretty ideal and limited level of violence, that is generally used by police or victims of assaults without any malice, so if there are onlookers who see the other guy's poor behavior, they will know exactly why you sprayed him and it's unlikely you'll be strung up over it, legally or socially.

9mmepiphany

February 6, 2013, 02:07 PM

I've read that they can imobilize an attacker in a closed environment because they remove all usable oxygen from the area.
While this statement is true, there are a few things to be aware of that should be considered before you go this route...if at all.

1. Closed - also implies small, because you have to replace almost all the oxygen in the room with gas.
2. If you are in the room, you will also be immobilized.
3. The immobilization isn't immediate, the attacker will still be able to act with the amount of oxygen in their lungs.

The only way this would be effective is if the attacker were trapped in an enclosed vestibule as you replaced the oxygen with the fire retardant...but if they were trapped, where your immediate threat come from?

kBob

February 6, 2013, 03:49 PM

I know of an instance where a fire extenguiser was successful at thwarting an attack. When first out of the service I found employment as the graveyard shift guy at a 24 hour convenience store.

If my spelling and typing and grammer is even worse than ever.....had minor surgury this morning and am still wonky BTW.

This young lady, a sudent< took my shift on weekends. Sh was robbed at gun point and then told to empty the timeed drop safe. The safe will drop only$20 every two minutes. The bad guy announced that during the wait he planned to enjoy himself at her expense and so came behind the counter while commanding her to strip.

Once the bad guy was in amongst the sluchy machines, hot dog griller, ect. ect. this 2nd Dan Black Belt of a girl seized a CO2 type extenguisher by the bell and whaled away at her attacker so that he required imediate hospitalization.

The company fired her BTW for resisisting which was against store policy.

By taser do you mean an actual taser brand gun or one of the many hand held mini cattle prods?

I would feel better armed with a three C cell maglite than any of the electric doo hickies, even with age bad knees ect. I would prefer the C cell over the D because it si easier to grip securely.

I always loved that Archie Cambell routine.....

"Doctor Doctor I broke my arm in two places! What should I do?"

"Stay out of them places!"

-kBob

Deen Macheen

February 6, 2013, 04:16 PM

I recently came far closer to having to draw my .45 than i liked.
Even tho my potential assailant was within inches of my face and aggressively threatening to take my life, i was cool headed enough to see him as a blowhard with anger issues. I calmly called his bluff and he crawled away like the coward he was/is.
Anyhow, it got me to thinking about alternate, non-lethal self defense. Not only on the street but in my home as well.
I'm thinking of four avenues.
Tactical flashlights, fire extinguishers, tazers and pepper sprays.
Anyone have tactical knowledge and or experience in the capabilities and or use of these items ?
I had to be certified in pepper spray, ASP baton and TASER while doing bail bond recovery. There are advantages/disadvantages of both.

ASP baton: close contact only. Can be lethal if used incorrectly. Banned in some states. Overall excellent choice.

Pepper: small percentage of people unaffected. Wind could cause problems. Able to be used on multiple attackers. Excellent 15' range choice.

TASER: Superb non lethal weapon. Only can be used on one attacker. 15' range. Cartridges expensive at $20 per shot.

If I had to pick between the 3 and that was all I had I would go: TASER, baton, pepper in that order.

Jim, West PA

February 6, 2013, 05:23 PM

Thanx for the responses. I can clearly see now that a fire extinguisher, although potetnialy effective, would be a last ditch item.
As for fashlights. I wasn't clear in saying that i was thinking of a small one as a blinding or disorienting item. Not a 'club'.

I think that maybe i refered to a tazer wrong. i was asking about a hand held. I never even gave any thot of a 'gun' style. I don't even know if they are legal to own in Pa outside of LE. I would prefer something small enough to pocket and or fit into a side pocket of my wife's purse. If they exist.
As for a baton. They are an offensive weapon in Pa and illegal to own.

So, all that being said.
What taser is reccomendable?
What kind of pepper spray ,
and what kind of tactical flashlight ?

Zardaia

February 6, 2013, 05:35 PM

I'll second the taser. Between regular quals at home station and training for detainee ops I've had quite a bit of ltl training. Taser, x26 is the most effective i've seen. Both baton and peper spray are just pain conpliance/irratent which can be fought through but a solid hit with a taser (dart firing not stun drive) will put somone down on the spot till the juice stops flowing. As far as knives go...idk. Devile's advocate that could be taken as escalating a non leathal fight by pulling a deadly weapon. If you're justified in a knife you're probably justified with a gun. Not a lawyer.
Edit to add- not sure of you're budget for flashlight but surefire makes high output models with a built in strobe function. Expensive but they really mess with the decision making process at night.

Bobson

February 6, 2013, 05:58 PM

I think that maybe i refered to a tazer wrong. i was asking about a hand held. I never even gave any thot of a 'gun' style.

What taser is reccomendable?
This is a Taser (http://www.taser.com/). There is only one Taser, and only one tool designed like a Taser (though TASER now makes more than one model of the Taser). It fires a projectile which delivers electric current to the target.

This (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Sabre-Security-Stun-Gun/1254559.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dstun%2Bgun%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=stun+gun&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products) and this (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Zaplight8482-Stun-Gun/708697.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dstun%2Bgun%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=stun+gun&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products) are examples of stun guns. This is counter-intuitive because stun guns don't fire any sort of projectile. They are direct-contact tools, like a knife. Like the Taser, they deliver electric current to the target.

You should realize that stun guns are not as effective as the Taser, because constant contact is required to continue the shock. With the Taser, a barb (kinda like a small fish-hook) on the end of the projectile secures it to the target, and a shock continues to transfer for a length of several seconds (length of shock varies with the Taser). A stun gun, while extremely painful, is not incapacitating unless the user maintains that contact. With a stun gun, there is also a chance (however slight) that clothing will prevent the shock from passing to the target. This is significantly less common with a Taser, because of the barbs.

As a side note, I'm almost certain you can't carry a Taser unless you're certified to do so. If you're not a sworn LEO or something in a legitimate security field, you may not even be eligible to receive the training. I've never known a civilian who carried one. As far as stun guns though, anyone can carry one. My brother in law did for a short while. He stopped carrying it after I used it on him (at his request), and he saw how ineffective it was.

JShirley

February 6, 2013, 07:33 PM

I'm almost certain you can't carry a Taser unless you're certified to do so. If you're not a sworn LEO or something in a legitimate security field, you may not even be eligible to receive the training

In your home you should assume someone who enters your home uninvited that you feel threatened by is too dangerous to concern yourself with less lethal approaches. Since a firearm is the most effective means of stopping an attacker in your home it is your primary defensive tool in the home, but there are many options that are less expensive that you can have at hand readily in the home.

Fire extinguishers do not perform as you think. They "smother" the fire, but they won't remove oxygen such that an attacker would be immobilized by the lack of oxygen. It is the chemical in dry chemical extinguishers that the person inhales that produces damage.

You're better off with a foam or stream type pepper spray inside, but you can apply a spray if you plan to withdraw behind the cloud of pepper spray.

There's no reason for you not to have a baseball/cricket bat in your own home nor for you to use it in defense of self and family (or any impact or hacking/slashing weapon).

gearjammer-2000

February 6, 2013, 10:02 PM

as a trucker and all the crappy laws and regulations we have to contend with I have found the best non-lethal protection is the foaming type of wasp spray, it has a good 20 ft reach won't take a chance of affecting you like pepper spray, and if you hit someone in the face trust my it is going to stop them cold, I have had to use it a few times on dogs one a big assed junkyard pit bull and it sent him running for home in agony

OptimusPrime

February 6, 2013, 10:27 PM

I'm a huge fan of keeping it simple. If I can't disarm/de-escalate a situation with my voice and manner, then it's going straight to ugly. So far I've done a good job of de-escalating via words and I hope that continues forever, but I'm not going to carry 3 or 4 other less lethal options just for someone else's edification.

Deen Macheen

February 7, 2013, 02:41 AM

The TASER is a specific weapon and not a stun gun, but that doesn't keep the media mush heads from calling them a TASER, just like they call a semi-auto AR15 and assault weapon. I worked in print news as well as radio news and the amount of stupid people pretending to know what they talk about is astounding. That being said, TASER requirements are different state to state. Check you local laws. Here is Washington, you do not have to have certs or training to carry as a civillian for defense, but you do have to have training and certs if you carry as BEA, security guard, LE, etc.

A contact stun gun is useful in some circumstances. I had to ward off a dog and used a 300k stun baton. Rover didnt like it much. But you can't conceal carry that. If state retrictions are really odious, stick with a 2 oz can of pepper foam (shave cream consistancy) or pepper gel. Easy to carry, 15' effective range and not as easy to be blown away by the wind.

Deen Macheen

February 7, 2013, 03:42 AM

as a trucker and all the crappy laws and regulations we have to contend with I have found the best non-lethal protection is the foaming type of wasp spray, it has a good 20 ft reach won't take a chance of affecting you like pepper spray, and if you hit someone in the face trust my it is going to stop them cold, I have had to use it a few times on dogs one a big assed junkyard pit bull and it sent him running for home in agony
A quick thinking option if ever there was one. And I agree that people need to use whatever they can to protect themselves. I would be careful however of insinuating that you placed the can of wasp spray in your truck with forethought. All you need is one of these "hotshot lawyer" types trying to make a name for himself by trying tp prove that you intended to place the can in your truck and use the "poisonous" contents on another human being, an WHAM! lawsuit city. I would just play it off like, uh it was the closest thing I could grab when I thought my safety was in danger officer. :)
Just sayin.

hso

February 7, 2013, 08:57 AM

found the best non-lethal protection is the foaming type of wasp spray

This is very bad advice. There are pepper stream/foam sprays out there that won't permanently harm someone/thing, but pesticides are not safe to use on people or animals.

heron

February 7, 2013, 09:29 PM

I have found the best non-lethal protection is the foaming type of wasp sprayRead the label. It states that it is illegal to use this product for anything other than what it's sold for. Use it to defend yourself against a human attacker and you could wind up in jail. Even worse, a civil suit which could end up with your attacker moving into your house.

Tirod

February 8, 2013, 09:48 AM

I might be reading way too much into all this.

Looking back over the OP's presentation of his incident, red flags pop up all over. As said, maybe dialing it back would be the better answer. What I interpret from the language was more a story of being victorious in a monkey dance, I won He lost. I smell a lot of testosterone in it.

Just maybe some research and thought into how that came about would be in order.

As for wasp spray, who's going to carry a can of that daily? And even in the event it was handy a minute before a beat down, would I care what the label said? It's legal weasel wording to keep the makers from being sued. Ruger does as much with all their roll marks on guns.

What we have are participants getting puffed up like blowfish in a contest of machismo, and why that was felt to be so necessary. It is the primary indicator when you think you are absolutely right and the other guy is being an idiot - it's a measuring contest of masculinity. How it jumps from there to Lethal Force is a stretch, but on the rare instance, someone who does know the social rules of chest thumping can move straight to the double dog dare and mess up.

It might be better to handle the situation out front while it's escalating, rather than bluff the wrong coward into backing down. There's always one who won't, the paper is full of them getting convicted and going to jail. People will only put up with being put down so many times. You cannot know or tell when.

No sense creating a hostile atmosphere when it can turn on you. If that's the plan, it really sounds like someone who's an adrenaline junkie and needs help. I have to ask, why is it so necessary to push people to the edge? The more it's done, the more step over the line, and we continue in a downward spiral.

lobo9er

February 8, 2013, 10:39 AM

Buy some bear spray or pepper spray, if you want to spray something.

Bikewer

February 8, 2013, 11:29 AM

From my standpoint as a police officer...

I've had uniformly good results over the years with pepper spray. The stuff is effective, usually legal, and has minimum legal consequences for the user.
Some will say that you can "fight through" the effects, but that's not a concern for most civilians; all you want is for the bad guy to be subdued or disabled long enough to get away.
It's we police that have to continue to 'rassle with the guy and get him cuffed and all.

Impact weapons... Legally you had better be justified. Introducing a weapon into an altercation raises the legal stakes. Hitting in the head, breaking bones...These things can be legally considered to be "lethal force".
"lethal force" is a legal term; it refers to force "likely to cause death or serious injury". "Serious injury" includes things like broken bones, concussions, etc.

So... Unless lethal force is justified, whacking someone with a big heavy flashlight could get you into serious trouble. Same with nearly any impact weapon.
The controlled used of an impact weapon, directed to areas likely to cause non-disabling effects (like those listed in the popular-with-police PPCT system) would likely carry less liability... But you had best be able to articulate your training and level of expertise.

Stun guns? Pain-compliance device that only works while it's in contact with the individual. It hurts. No knockout, no disabling effect. Likely to seriously annoy a more serious attacker.

Taser? The civilian version may or may not be legal depending on your location.
They are a one-shot weapon. Also very expensive.....
If it works, you're good. Bad guy falls down and twitches helplessly for 30 seconds or so, allowing you to get away.
However... If one dart misses, or there's two attackers, or it's Winter and he has a heavy coat.... Not so much. Our department has had a spotty record with the things. Malfunctions, darts fell out when the BG fell down, missed with one dart....
I wouldn't buy one.

Jim, West PA

February 8, 2013, 06:15 PM

Looking back over the OP's presentation of his incident, red flags pop up all over. As said, maybe dialing it back would be the better answer. What I interpret from the language was more a story of being victorious in a monkey dance, I won He lost. I smell a lot of testosterone in it.

You couldn't be more wrong Tirod.
Let me 1st say that this incident occurd because in a busy gas station, this fella attempted to come into the pumps from the wrong direction and 'jump' in without getting in line and waiting his turn. I was more than 95% into place taking my turn and he thot that he could bully his way in and expected me to cowar and allow him to do so.All i did was ignore him and take my turn. He imediately when BALISTIC on me.
ALL i did was calmly go about my business and continue to ignore him. I fed into nothing he did or said.( i did briefly concider soaking him in gas but very quickly equated that to be a foolish idea ). I also prayed that using my gun would not have to take place.
He had me boxed completely in between my car, my wife's open car door and the gas pump. I had no where ot retreat to.
When i finished and hung the gas nozzel back up he was still inches from my face SCREAMING .." i am going to kill you ". But he had not once raised a hand.
Finaly, since i was boxed in i very calmly looked him in the eyes and said..." ok, here i am, what are you gonna do ? "
He imediately cowered away.

i was cool headed enough to see him as a blowhard with anger issues. I calmly called his bluff and he crawled away like the coward he was/is. What part of this decribes a " monkey dance " ? And, exactly what is a "monkey dance" ?

With all due respect Tirod. If you are smellin testosterone. It's your own.
I simply attempted to describe my incident as simply as i could without going into great detail. And, ask about alternative means of self defense that do not result in major injury to an assailant. I am very good at keeping my head and reading peoples' actions and manerisms and i assure you that very last thing that i want to ever do is take someones life or do them serious bodliy harm.
There are fellas out there that just wanna give someone a good ole punch and maybe go fist to cuffs with ya and leave it at that. Too many folks now adays think that everyone wants to kill 'em just because they wanna fight ya.
I'm not strong enough to go a fist fight but i won't allow myself to be beaten nor am i gonna wanna kill someone just for hitting me no matter who is at fault.
Hope i've made myself clear to you.

JShirley

February 8, 2013, 07:13 PM

Some will say that you can "fight through" the effects

Well, almost anything's possible. The first time I took a shot of OC, I could have put up a good fight for maybe 30 seconds. The second time...it was bad. I did in fact fight, but could not see at all. And the effects lasted for over 12 hours. I had agreed to do some volunteer work in DC the next day, and was on the verge of throwing up for the first few hours.

Jim, you're the only one that was there. While I do understand the desirability of de-escalating whenever reasonably possible, it is also true that someone who "boxes you in" has automatically upped the ante by denying you the ability to retreat.

John

Deltaboy

February 8, 2013, 08:50 PM

Cane ,pepper spray, c-cell mag lite, good lock back knife.

Sol

February 8, 2013, 09:31 PM

True story; one time I was eating raw habaneros (I like the rush) and one of my "friends" knocked on the door. I answer the door and my "friend" was drunk, delusional drunk to be exact. So this drunken oaf, wavering at my doorstep slurring about some sort of hallucination of me wronging him or something. Whatever I pay no mind and tell the guy go home and sleep it off. Well, telling a drunk "what to do" is a no no I guess, and the guy starts yelling at me in my doorway. At this point I have a sweaty, stinking drunk screaming in my face, well into my personal bubble. Seeing as I don't like the presence of law enforcement I figured I had to get this guy to leave. I had a bottle of water with me so I took a nice swig and swishes in my mouth. I spat it right in his eyes and face. It took a second or two, but the pepper saliva water kicked in and all of a sudden this guy is screaming in pain and ran off. The cops found him rolling around in someones lawn a few blocks away and into the drunk tank with him.

That was low road but a lesson in alternative weaponry.

plateshooter

February 9, 2013, 11:38 AM

In days gone by, I was working as a service tech and had to go into some pretty nasty areas. Carrying a gun was forbidden a knife would get you arrested if caught, and either would get you fired at the least.

I found a 6 or 8oz ball peen hammer to be my friend. Fits easily tucked in the belt. The ball end works great as a muscle dysfunction tool, the side of the head is a great slapper on pressure points, and the face is good for breaking toes or ankles should you end up on the ground.

I have taken several styles of martial arts in my younger years and the hammer can be adapted in any one of them from my experience.

If you can't carry anything else, it is a pretty good option IMO.

JimStC

February 9, 2013, 02:26 PM

Today my Escrima teacher introduced me to palm sticks. These are 12" versions of the traditional fighting sticks. We used them to defend against knife attacks, fist blows and stick attacks. I was very comfortable with the palm sticks since I have been training with the traditional weapons (sticks, knives and hands) for six months. The appealing characteristic of the palm sticks is that you are able to limit the injury to the attacker by the placement of the blows (forehead vs bicep, temple vs hand). Obviously training and proficiency are critical since the blocking, trapping and offensive techniques are not immediately obvious.
We also used the palm sticks to effectuate arm locks, shoulder locks and take downs. It is a very effective tool with proper training.
Just thought I'd share this since it seemed somewhat coincidental that I was introduced to this small weapon that could be carried in my coat pocket or back pants pocket today.

Jim

bikerdoc

February 9, 2013, 04:06 PM

^ A rolled up magazine is a good innocent looking alternative, with proper training, of course. :)

JimStC

February 9, 2013, 04:12 PM

Doc,
Rolled up tightly, absolutely right! What a great idea. Thanks.

Jim

9mmepiphany

February 9, 2013, 05:10 PM

^ A rolled up magazine is a good innocent looking alternative, with proper training, of course. :)
Good point

I don't often mention this because it just doesn't come to mind

Take a look at this video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ4dFcm4ML0) at the 3:10 point

...or a more practical explanation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc-p22QPA3k) of Honda Korosu

Sam Cade

February 9, 2013, 05:55 PM

It states that it is illegal to use this product for anything other than what it's sold for. Use it to defend yourself against a human attacker and you could wind up in jail.

Do you have an example of this happening? :scrutiny:

conw

February 9, 2013, 06:00 PM

I have to say I found the second video ridiculous, at least the demonstrations.

9mmepiphany

February 9, 2013, 07:37 PM

I have to say I found the second video ridiculous, at least the demonstrations.
If you are talking about the Ron Duncan video, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but Ron is the real deal. He was a US Marine and held Black Belts (before you just bought them) in Hakko Ryu Jujitsu, Dai-nippon Jujitsu Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, Kin Dai Gakko Ryu, Aikido, Aiki-Jujitsu, Kempo, Kobujitsu and Shinobino-jitsu. He is also known as the Father of American Ninjitsu

He was a recognized master of martial arts weapon and I've known about him since the 70s. He was once on television's Thrill Seekers and the Wide World of Sports catching live arrows in flight

Jim, West PA

February 9, 2013, 07:41 PM

Jim, you're the only one that was there. While I do understand the desirability of de-escalating whenever reasonably possible, it is also true that someone who "boxes you in" has automatically upped the ante by denying you the ability to retreat.

Thanx John. I never, until now, gave any thot to how you describe being boxed in as minimizing an escape route. Good point.
I did initialy give thot to stepping out to the rear of my car when i saw him approach,but imediately thot to myself that if i do i will automaticaly escalate his already evident rage.
He could have read that , as i think a poster here called, "chest thumping", and therefore put him on the spot as being challenged.

This doesn't change the effectiveness of a rolled paper or magazine, but Duncan was a fraud- at least, when he claimed to be teaching one of Japan's oldest martial arts. I'lll give an example of a real kobudo teacher with a real heritage demonstrating a genuine historical art:

I defer to your expertise..I didn't realize he'd been exposed as a fraud

Just as well that I didn't follow my first impulse and refer to Daniel Trevanian's Nicholas Hel from Shibumi ;) (like the book, this is satire)

lobo9er

February 10, 2013, 12:42 AM

in my early 20's i sprayed my friend in the face with pepper spray. I wouldn't trust it. It may help you escape. Thats the best review on pepper spray I can give.

USAF_Vet

February 10, 2013, 02:04 AM

When I can't carry a knife, which is about never, I have a 9/32" t-handle Allen wrench cut back to about 3". The handle fills my grip perfectly, and 3" of hardened steel protruding from between my knuckles would hurt considerably if directed into soft tissue.

As a mechanic, I have all sorts of tools around me that could serve as weapons. The Allen wrench is something strong, lightweight, and fits nicely into my back pocket.

RetiredUSNChief

February 10, 2013, 04:26 AM

An interesting question.

First of all, circumstances dictate both the optimum choice in weapons, both from an ideal perspective and from a practical perspective.

The "ideal" weapon, of any type, is usually hypothetical, however. Practically speaking, whatever you have at hand is the reality you have to deal with.

You don't give us the details necessary to fully evaluate your circumstance. And, before you may post in response to this, I'm not asking for those details. I'm just posting this to clarify.

For example, "my potential assailant was within inches of my face and aggressively threatening to take my life" would not indicate to me that pepper spray would be your best option. It's difficult to maintain control of a situation if you unload a stream of pepper spray into your assailant's face when it's only a couple inches away from your own. Arms length or better, under ventilation conditions which minimize your own changes of getting a face full are optimal for this.

If what you are truely looking for is "non-lethal self defense", I would seriously recommend training in some form of martial arts. Martial arts focuses on many aspects that armed self-defense does...starting with situational awareness. It also teaches you both unarmed and armed forms, depending on your level of training and the types of martial arts you choose to pursue.

The advantage of martial arts training is that it's ALWAYS with you, no matter where you go and no matter what you have on hand. Such training allows you a great variety of options with respect to weapons of opportunity, too.

You do not have to be a total bad*ss in martial arts to make it count. Simply deflecting an attack, increasing the distance between you and an assailant, or executing a simple block, hold, throw, or other form of physical defense can give you an opening you need to either leave or incapacitate your attacker...with or without the use of deadly force as required.

Human interactions in conflict are a balance of four instinctive behavioral patterns: fight, flight, posture, and submission. How you interpret these behavioral patterns (for both yourself and your attacker) determines the weight you give to each. The ultimate resulting in the application of deadly force.

I applaud you for a variety of reasons...

1. You do not wish to use deadly force unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

2. You wish to increase your non-lethal options.

3. You have the brains to look back on your encounter with an analytical mindset and an eye to improve your options for possible future encounters.

Whatever you choose to do, choose wisely. And, God willing, I pray you never find yourself in such a situation again.

Ole Coot

February 18, 2013, 10:50 AM

Inches from your face? Should never let anyone hostile get that close. A good cane is a great weapon IF you learn a few simple moves with one and can be carried anywhere and provides all important distance. IF a man is way inside my comfort zone I am personally fond of a palm strike to the chin, thumb under his chin & fingers of the same hand in his eye or if you have a cane use it as an impact weapon straight up to the chin, neck & stomp his instep. Works for me.

Gordon

February 18, 2013, 12:18 PM

Wait till you get old ! Suddenly instead of the big lunking bad boy you are a tired , worn out white hair target! I let people posture and vent but will back pedal as far as possible. If 6 feet is closed I scream loud warnings to keep back as I am calling the police, keep coming and I yell STOP and go into lethal mode which WILL occur right at physical contact. I'll let the legal chips fall as I feel I am justified.No more less than lethal on humans from this senior citizen, sorry.

leadcounsel

February 18, 2013, 01:56 PM

Watch some Youtube videos about how fast a fightfight can occur, and how quickly it can go badly for the loser.

Knockout punches and kicks can and do occur, in an instant, with no warning. Once you're knocked out, it's game over for you. You may never wake up.

It's often said that an attacker can close 21 feet distance in 1-2 seconds.

I feel that nearly any serious attack by an adult male is deadly force if using fists or feet, and clearly if there are weapons. Stats show that more people are killed annually with feet and fists and clubs than with 'assault rifles.'

My advice is to train how you fight, and stick to simple tools and know your own Escalation of Force contingency. Flashlights may diffuse a situation, or temporarily blind someone or give you better visibility whether they have a weapon, so they are good to carry. Pepper spray has it's place, and I carry it on occassion where I'm concerned about wild animals or stray dogs. But the handgun is for serious situations; if I feel that I'm in imminent fear of death or serious bodily harm, I go for the handgun.

In my home? If you're there committing a serious felony and I fear for my safety, you'll wish you weren't. Fire extinquisher? Uh, no... 12 gauge.

JShirley

February 18, 2013, 02:53 PM

I'm a big fan of the "M4gery" for HD. The Army gave me thousands of rounds to practice with one...so I've now practiced with one more than anything else. And it can handle multiple targets with minimal recoil, high effectiveness, and little chance of overpenetration. :)

bikerdoc

February 18, 2013, 02:55 PM

I have gotten pretty good with my cane in the last 5 years, but it will not replace my side arm

JimStC

February 18, 2013, 03:06 PM

Ditto on the M4. 10" barrel, YHM Ti suppressor, illuminated CQB glass, mounted light, laser. Sure can solve a lot of problems.......
I have a couple of 12 ga too. Just like the M4 better.
Jim

JShirley

February 19, 2013, 01:32 PM

Oh, very nice. You running varmint bullets to ensure expansion from that barrel?

JimStC

February 19, 2013, 01:45 PM

55 gr V Max over 24.0 gr H-322, 2.210 OAL.

Edit to add: Also Hornady 55 gr fmj, rest of the specs are the same

Jim

robinkevin

February 26, 2013, 09:02 AM

I like to carry a cane if going some place that I feel conflict is more likely than normal. I have trained in everything from Traditional Shotokan Karate, to Aikido, with that being said I suggest people that care about self defense learn first how to box. Boxing will teach you basic punches simple footwork and blocking. Then Jujitsu or Judo is prefer for close quarters. With Jujitsu I can disarm, and control an attacker rather quickly. In most cases a good wrist or arm lock is the fastest way to end an conflict and get control of the situation.

JimStC

February 26, 2013, 03:54 PM

^^^^^
Excellent advice! Why didn't I think of that myself? Wait, I did and this is very coincidental. My Escrima instructor also teaches traditional boxing. He was the CA state kickboxing champion back in the '80's and his brother was #2 in the world in his boxing weight class during that time too.
After 6 months or so of Escrima training I asked him to also train me in traditional boxing. I bought gloves, heavy bag and double end bag and set up a "gym" at my home so I can train on my off days. We have added boxing to our training. Seems like a good way to round out my program.

Jim

USAF_Vet

February 26, 2013, 07:46 PM

Don't know where you live, but all but the two folders on top would get you a stay in the grey bar hotel where I live.

CA Raider

February 26, 2013, 10:51 PM

in your situation ... what you need is something that will make him back off. if you hit somebody who's angry with a tactical flashlight - that could drive him into the FIGHT part of Fight-or-Flight. How about a Barracuda stun gun? I would probably think twice before I had one of those things jammed into my ribs.

CA R

DNS

February 27, 2013, 05:03 PM

I don't carry a maglite 24-7.
I don't carry a fire extinguisher either.
My wasp sprays at the house for wasps.

Pepper spray gives me a small package to carry on my key ring which means its always with me. It also allows me some distance against BGs, dogs, etc.

JShirley

February 27, 2013, 09:20 PM

It's true that a small flashlight is a contact distance weapon, just as pens are (though I prefer flashlights). If I am truly in fear for my life, though, and he's in range, I'm striking for the temple.

If I'm not in fear for my life yet, and/or the attacker isn't in range, I'm really, really good at nailing attacker's fists and forearms. If you do that while holding a small flashlight, there's a darn good chance his arms will be numb. Hard to attack with arms that don't work. :D I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't pay to make assumption about how others are going to use a defensive article.

John

wep45

February 27, 2013, 11:43 PM

(A) super soaker water cannon filled with bleach or ammonia and (B) a baseball bat.

(A) aim for the head and eyes and then (B) smash em inna groin.

JShirley

February 28, 2013, 12:02 AM

Neither of those things is a good choice to carry around. Unlike something you can easily put on your belt or in your pocket.

leadcounsel

February 28, 2013, 02:04 AM

Regarding wasp sprays, bleach sprays, etc....

"It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling." 40 CFR 156.10(i)(2)(ii).

Not a good idea to go using bleach or wasp sprays at people, unless you want a Federal conviction, find and jail.

Why the effort to find some less effective unconventional weapon when handguns are affordable, compact, effective, and legal?

RetiredUSNChief

February 28, 2013, 03:04 AM

Regarding wasp sprays, bleach sprays, etc....

Not a good idea to go using bleach or wasp sprays at people, unless you want a Federal conviction, find and jail.

Why the effort to find some less effective unconventional weapon when handguns are affordable, compact, effective, and legal?

Good points.

However, I think some people (not everybody) on both sides of this equation are missing a very important point.

The point being that you should defend yourself to the maximum extent possible with whatever weapon(s) of opportunity you have at hand.

To intentionally make a weapon out of wasp spray before hand may indeed be in violation of the law. However, grabbing a can of wasp spray to defend yourself in the heat of battle is using a weapon of opportunity. Big difference.

It's the same difference between carrying a baseball bat you've driven gutter spikes through as a deadly weapon and grabbing you son's baseball bat in the den to defend yourself. Both are potential deadly weapons, not intended for that purpose; the difference being in the approach to how they were brought into play.

I don't think there are very many, if any, legal cases where a person defended themselves in a matter of serious assault with such a weapon of opportunity where they were prosecuted for "weaponizing" such items.

:)

TAKtical

February 28, 2013, 03:59 AM

Fox labs. A buddy of mine works for the local PD swears by the foam.

Kleanbore

March 1, 2013, 04:47 PM

Posted by RetiredUSNChief: To intentionally make a weapon out of wasp spray before hand may indeed be in violation of the law. However, grabbing a can of wasp spray to defend yourself in the heat of battle is using a weapon of opportunity. Big difference.

It's the same difference between carrying a baseball bat you've driven gutter spikes through as a deadly weapon and grabbing you son's baseball bat in the den to defend yourself. Both are potential deadly weapons, not intended for that purpose; the difference being in the approach to how they were brought into play.

I don't think there are very many, if any, legal cases where a person defended themselves in a matter of serious assault with such a weapon of opportunity where they were prosecuted for "weaponizing" such items.That addresses the state use of force laws and the state laws pertaining to the possession of weapons.

But that's not the issue regarding wasp spray.

There is a Federal law that covers the use of wasp spray for uses other that killing wasps and hornets. USC Section 18, Part 1, Chapter 11B, Chemical Weapons makes it unlawful for anyone to knowingly receive, stockpile, retain, own, possess, or use, or threaten to use, any chemical which, through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals, except for "any peaceful purpose related to an industrial, agricultural, research, medical, or pharmaceutical activity or other activity."

Criminal penalties include fines, imprisonment (up to life) and even the death penalty, if death results. There is also a provision for hefty civil penalties, which of course do not require the Government to prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is important to realize that this is entirely separate from state use of force laws; there is no provision for a defense of justification, and the case would be prosecuted by an Assistant US Attorney in a Federal court, presided over by a Federal District Judge. It is very possible that facts concerning the reason for the unlawful use would not be admitted into evidence.

Pepper spray and chemical mace are specifically exempted from the law.

One could hope that the Assistant United States Attorney would use his or her discretion to not prosecute someone for using wasp spray for self defense unter extreme circumstances, but when one considers the number of people who have ended up with federal criminal convictions under what anyone in his right mind would judge to be entirely innocent circumstances, that would not be a prudent gamble at all.

In cases involving a whole raft of Federal laws, "innocent" means that one did not do it.

One would be better off using pepper spray if deadly force is not justified. If deadly force is justified, one would be better off using a firearm.

RetiredUSNChief

March 1, 2013, 07:38 PM

That addresses the state use of force laws and the state laws pertaining to the possession of weapons.

But that's not the issue regarding wasp spray.

There is a Federal law that covers the use of wasp spray for uses other that killing wasps and hornets. USC Section 18, Part 1, Chapter 11B, Chemical Weapons makes it unlawful for anyone to knowingly receive, stockpile, retain, own, possess, or use, or threaten to use, any chemical which, through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals, except for "any peaceful purpose related to an industrial, agricultural, research, medical, or pharmaceutical activity or other activity."

Thanks.

Being the good little boy that I am, I looked this up (thanks for the reference).

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C11B.txt

I'm not so sure that this actually covers what we're talking about.

Chapter 11B is specifically titled "Chemical Weapons". And, as it appears to be defined in 229F, wasp spray doesn't seem to fall into that category:

A- It is a toxic chemical, but it's intended for a purpose not prohibited under that chapter in the type and quantity intended for its use.

B- It is not a munition or device, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in the paragraph above.

C- It is not specifically designed for use directly in connection with the employment of munitions or devices specified in paragraph B above.

Purposes not prohibited by this chapter includes "Peaceful purposes. - Any peaceful purpose related to an industrial, agricultural, research, medical, or pharmaceutical activity or other activity."

Killing wasps is a peaceful purpose (well...not for the wasps, anyway) which can fall under agricultural or "other activity".

It seems that the entire context of this chapter deals specifically with chemicals and precursors designed or directly related to military chemical warfare use.

I don't see wasp spray as falling under any of those definitions. And, if it does, then there are a great many household chemicals which may also fall under this prohibition you speak of, such as ammonia, bleach, and lye.

That they may be lethal when used in self-defense doesn't matter in my opinion. (Of course, my opinion isn't "law", either.) The guns we profess to be ready and willing to use in self-defense are lethal weapons. The kitchen knife I may grab is a lethal weapon. The baseball bat or crowbar I grab is a lethal weapon.

The kitchen knife is designed for a peaceful purpose...as is the baseball bat and the crowbar.

Now, I'm not an attorney and I may, indeed, be 100% wrong in my opinion. I am open to that option and will gladly eat crow if someone can make me see the light. Certainly, if I AM wrong, I would not wish to advocate such actions.

I did some more research and there may be laws specifically dealing with intentionally poisoning someone...and wasp spray IS a poison. This is, of course, a felony.

It also turns out that wasp spray is a really poor defensive weapon...it's not a very powerful skin or eye irritant, so it really sucks compared to the pepper sprays available. And pepper sprays can, indeed, have similar ranges to wasp spray. So one would be stupid to advocate going through the trouble to buy a can of wasp spray specifically for self defense when he could spend the SAME amount of money on a much more effective can of pepper spray.

To that end, I will NOT advocate deliberately staging wasp spray for defensive purposes.

I guess the main problem I have is the issue that there may be no provision for an exemption for self-defense...where it's a "him or me" situation and a person will literally grab anything they can reach in an effor to stay alive.

jauguston

March 1, 2013, 08:04 PM

Take a look at the Kimber Pepper Blaster II. I carry one as well as my Sig P238. My wife and daughter also carry one. There are some Utube videos that give a good idea how they work. I took the recommendation of buying two for each of the ladies. The first one (They are 2 shot) was used to ally their fears of it and show them what it did and shoot at a target The second one to carry. A very good non-lethal option.

Jim

Kleanbore

March 1, 2013, 08:15 PM

Posted by RetiredUSNChief: I'm not so sure that this actually covers what we're talking about.It does.

Killing wasps is a peaceful purpose (well...not for the wasps, anyway) which can fall under agricultural or "other activity".Of course. That is why it is sold.

But spraying it on a person is not lawful.

It seems that the entire context of this chapter deals specifically with chemicals and precursors designed or directly related to military chemical warfare use.Among the operative words, however, are "precursor" which means any chemical reactant which takes part at any stage in the production by whatever method of a toxic chemical. A toxic chemical is defined any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals.

I don't see wasp spray as falling under any of those definitions. How so?

And, if it does, then there are a great many household chemicals which may also fall under this prohibition you speak of, such as ammonia, bleach, and lye.You are right on the money.

As a matter of fact, one person of whom we know has been prosecuted under the act in Federal court, convicted, and imprisoned for having knowingly exposed someone to contact with household lye.

The guns we profess to be ready and willing to use in self-defense are lethal weapons. The kitchen knife I may grab is a lethal weapon. The baseball bat or crowbar I grab is a lethal weapon.

The kitchen knife is designed for a peaceful purpose...as is the baseball bat and the crowbar.All of that falls under state laws, and under those, there are provisions for defense of justification.

RetiredUSNChief

March 2, 2013, 01:03 AM

@ Kleanbore:

How 'bout this:

I'll take the high road on this one and defer to your judgement. This is, by far, the most conservative route to take on the subject. And I doubt that I'll find any firm support of my previously stated views by trying to interpret these things on my own. As I said, I'm not an attorney, and I do know that my opinion does not necessarily constitute reality with respect to the law.

I'll leave off on further discussions here about the legality of this and just bring it up in private conversations with some friends/family who are attorneys and see what all I can learn on the subject. Right or wrong, I'm always willing to learn.

As I said in my last post, it does seem to me to be a stupid thing to deliberately plan on staging wasp spray as a potential self-defense weapon in the first place, after what I found out about it's effectiveness.

- It's not really any cheaper than a quality pepper spray or mace.
- It's not nearly as effective an irritant to skin and eyes as pepper sprays or mace.
- It has no better effective range than a quality pepper spray or mace.
- It's not nearly as small and convenient to carry as pepper spray or mace.

As one site I researched said, it's stupid to count on the comparatively feeble effectiveness of wasp spray as a reliable defensive weapon, especially since its lack of effectiveness may only serve to enrage your attacker and increase the danger to your own life as a result.

Thanks for taking the time to point all this out to me.

:):)

Kleanbore

March 2, 2013, 08:15 AM

Posted by RetiredUSNChief: As one site I researched said, it's stupid to count on the comparatively feeble effectiveness of wasp spray as a reliable defensive weapon, especially since its lack of effectiveness may only serve to enrage your attacker and increase the danger to your own life as a result.That's a good point. Also, although it may appear inconsistent with that, there is the issue that the use of wasp spray on a person would likely be judged as constituting use of deadly force, because it can be reasonably expected to cause permanent blindness. And there's the Federal law.

All in all, the use of wasp spray on humans is a very poor idea.

Thanks for taking the time to point all this out to me.That's what we are here for.

Tirod

March 4, 2013, 11:35 AM

I appreciate the expanded explanation. I've had similar instances, too.

Of course, when the story is expanded to explain all the actions and circumstances, it's pretty easy to say "can't be more wrong." If information is withheld and the wrong interpretation of a sparse story given, I don't think that's the fault of the reader.

It does point out that there's no give or take in this presentation, which IMHO only underlines my point. Otherwise, why post up at all?

Given that the long version makes it apparent neither one of us is posting from the high school library, I'd like to say I appreciate your actions at the pump. Obviously somebody else was having a bad day and took it out on you. It's apparent they weren't thinking about it, and were engaged in the "dance" completely.