KysenMurrin wrote: They also said they were trying to avoid the extra-long wait between the last tier and next expansion. But the timing of Blizzcon so late in the year doesn't seem well placed for an announcement unless the gap is gonna be just as big as normal.

halabar wrote:I don't think that was the point we were making.. the issue is still the work involved in catchup, assuming you don't have a already well geared group to drag you through. As I mentioned before, my raid team is going to need to do a lot before they are ready for N T15.

Nooska brought up recruitment and making the step up to proper raiding so I addressed that specifically. I appreciate LFR would help your guild but isn't there a bunch of new rep and badge gear too? I can't pretend to know what it's like for your guild but overall I think LFR is harmful enough for normal guilds in terms of player pool for recruitment, having it super early like with Dragon Soul (*spit*) would hurt guilds like yours even more.

Teranoid wrote:It's almost cringeworthy reading the R&D forums with people claiming Blizzard is treating them like "second class citizens" because they're not unleashing the entire raid in LFR today.

The ignorance of this playerbase never ceases to amaze me. This really IS the entitlement generation.

I see nothing has changed.

If they unlocked LFR today these same people would be making topics next month complaining about having seen all the content and being bored already. If they want to see the thunder king raid nothing is stopping them doing it on normal but if they just want to do LFR then that's their problem.

Also unless something has changed since I last played, ANYONE can make the step up to real raiding if they can demonstrate that they have made the most of the gear available to them, can write a decent application (this is still shockingly rare) and semi-decent conversational skills when an officer asks questions. They are deluding themselves if they think day one LFR is a ticket to easy catchup epics and a good guild. If a guild wants you they will gear you up on farm epics within a few resets anyway; my friend's guild is 16/16 heroic (I think I have that number right) and they recruited someone in mediocre gear a few weeks ago because he knew how to write an app, had good experience and was the right class/spec. If you can sell yourself properly it doesn't matter if you still have a few blues or whatever, it really isn't that important.

Of course the other side of the coin is that the upper-tier raiders feel entitled to see the content before everyone else for some reason known only to them.

What is the compelling reason that only the top tier should have access to the new raid for any length of time? From my perspective, I say they are the ones feeling entitlement.

I gave up top-tier raiding because I got tired of dealing with the asshats, loot whores, and drama queens. I can keep up with the work at that level, but the people were crap. I'm in a better place now, but the down side is we're stuck in Heart of Fear because some people can't handle certain mechanics. The only way I get to see Terrace is LFR. I'd like to see the new raid instance, but I understand the Entitled Ones get first dibs on it before we mere rank-and-file should be allowed.

halabar wrote:I don't think that was the point we were making.. the issue is still the work involved in catchup, assuming you don't have a already well geared group to drag you through. As I mentioned before, my raid team is going to need to do a lot before they are ready for N T15.

Nooska brought up recruitment and making the step up to proper raiding so I addressed that specifically. I appreciate LFR would help your guild but isn't there a bunch of new rep and badge gear too? I can't pretend to know what it's like for your guild but overall I think LFR is harmful enough for normal guilds in terms of player pool for recruitment, having it super early like with Dragon Soul (*spit*) would hurt guilds like yours even more.

I can't speak for Nooska, but the rep and badge gear is for the people who enjoy the endless dailies it takes to get it. I don't have the time during the weekdays because I work and have a family. If I could grind the rep on weekends I would be a lot further along gear-wise than I am, but I can only run the allotted number of dailies each weekend day and I really don't enjoy the boring repetition that they represent.

I would much rather have some variety in my WoW experience by playing an alt than to do the same things over and over every day like a carnival chicken plucking corn off a keyboard.

halabar wrote:I don't think that was the point we were making.. the issue is still the work involved in catchup, assuming you don't have a already well geared group to drag you through. As I mentioned before, my raid team is going to need to do a lot before they are ready for N T15.

Nooska brought up recruitment and making the step up to proper raiding so I addressed that specifically. I appreciate LFR would help your guild but isn't there a bunch of new rep and badge gear too? I can't pretend to know what it's like for your guild but overall I think LFR is harmful enough for normal guilds in terms of player pool for recruitment, having it super early like with Dragon Soul (*spit*) would hurt guilds like yours even more.

I can't speak for Nooska, but the rep and badge gear is for the people who enjoy the endless dailies it takes to get it. I don't have the time during the weekdays because I work and have a family. If I could grind the rep on weekends I would be a lot further along gear-wise than I am, but I can only run the allotted number of dailies each weekend day and I really don't enjoy the boring repetition that they represent.

I would much rather have some variety in my WoW experience by playing an alt than to do the same things over and over every day like a carnival chicken plucking corn off a keyboard.

I totally respect that, I feel the same way and it's one of the reasons why if I do raid again, it won't be in a hardcore min/maxer group. I love the tanking-healing-DPS gameplay of raids and dungeons and that's ALL I want to do in WoW. Tedious farming of consumables and the constant treadmill of boring easy dailies is not my idea of fun. Some weeks I only have time to (or only want to) login for raids. That was possible in Cata but min/max MOP raiding requires too much upkeep that I simply do not want to do.

I disagree with you on the whole entitlement thing but that argument has been done to death so I won't rehash it.

halabar wrote:I don't think that was the point we were making.. the issue is still the work involved in catchup, assuming you don't have a already well geared group to drag you through. As I mentioned before, my raid team is going to need to do a lot before they are ready for N T15.

Nooska brought up recruitment and making the step up to proper raiding so I addressed that specifically. I appreciate LFR would help your guild but isn't there a bunch of new rep and badge gear too? I can't pretend to know what it's like for your guild but overall I think LFR is harmful enough for normal guilds in terms of player pool for recruitment, having it super early like with Dragon Soul (*spit*) would hurt guilds like yours even more.

Part of the new valor gear is blocked behind the raid rep, which is the biggest thing. Those who can hit those raids will get the raid rep fast, and quickly get into that gear. Those who are going to rely on LFR to get that raid rep to start will fall behind for a while.

The LFR gear itself isn't as much as help, since it's 502 vs 522 for the raid rep. The faction rep gear is only 496, so that's still on 5.1 level.

So for a raid team to get to a ilvl 500ish across the board is going to be a real challenge in some cases.

However...

I do also agree releasing it too fast is a problem as well, as people will burn out on LFR long before they actually see the normal raids. So it's a Catch-22. Do you risk boredom/burnout, or do you stretch out the community too far, and risk the BC-era guild/raid-team jumping as the better players who can put in more time start hopping up the guild ladder?

Note: I do actually prefer this method of stretching things out a bit. But I also see the potential consequences.

It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

As I mentioned, within my own raid team, which is part of a massive guild (3000+ toons), I imagine we'll loose some that want to hit the new content (but likely aren't ready for it), especially among the newer players. But time will tell...

Key thing probably will be just how much the "improved drop rates" will help.

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

Of course the other side of the coin is that the upper-tier raiders feel entitled to see the content before everyone else for some reason known only to them.

What is the compelling reason that only the top tier should have access to the new raid for any length of time? From my perspective, I say they are the ones feeling entitlement.

Uh.

The reason Blizzard feel the "need" to do the gating is that with LFR off the bat, they still haven't successfully been able to make it so that "upper-tier raiders" are not incentivised to go into LFR as well.

The exact reason they cited for why Ra'den LFR will be "later than usual" is because they expect Ra'Den Normal to take a while, and they don't want that to be diminished by people having already farmed Ra'Den for weeks when they actually get to him and kill him.

Of course the other side of the coin is that the upper-tier raiders feel entitled to see the content before everyone else for some reason known only to them.

What is the compelling reason that only the top tier should have access to the new raid for any length of time? From my perspective, I say they are the ones feeling entitlement.

Uh.

The reason Blizzard feel the "need" to do the gating is that with LFR off the bat, they still haven't successfully been able to make it so that "upper-tier raiders" are not incentivised to go into LFR as well.

The exact reason they cited for why Ra'den LFR will be "later than usual" is because they expect Ra'Den Normal to take a while, and they don't want that to be diminished by people having already farmed Ra'Den for weeks when they actually get to him and kill him.

They don't "have to" farm LFR any more than casuals "have to" to the rep grinds and dailies. People have been telling me all along how if I didn't like dailies and rep grinds I don't have to do them. Well, if people want their kill to be fresh, they don't have to do LFR and burn themselves out on it, do they?

The fact that doing LFR is practically mandatory if you want to progress is irrelevant, because the rep/badge gear is practically mandatory if casuals want to progress. In both cases people are incentivised to do things they don't want to do, so I reckon the same advice applies to both cases. Don't like it? Just don't do it. Problem solved - or at least that's what I've been told.

halabar wrote:It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

I for one welcome this return to TBC style. I always found... weird that the old tier basically got demoted even below PuG interest when a new tier came out since heroics / pvp would grant gear that was same or higher ilvl than the previous normal tier.

I also like the new way of helping people gear up through LFR, aka pumping the loot chance to a very high level (and with the new system, no loot drama!), will mean that if you newly ding 90 on a char, maybe you won't be "last tier ready" within 1 day of dinging, but will actually have to run heroics -> previous LFR / reps -> current LFR / reps in order to access the last tier, making it still possible to reroll or gear up an alt, but not as dull and boring as it was in Wotlk/Cata, aka just spamming heroics for 7-8 hours and be done with it.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

halabar wrote:It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

I for one welcome this return to TBC style. I always found... weird that the old tier basically got demoted even below PuG interest when a new tier came out since heroics / pvp would grant gear that was same or higher ilvl than the previous normal tier.

I also like the new way of helping people gear up through LFR, aka pumping the loot chance to a very high level (and with the new system, no loot drama!), will mean that if you newly ding 90 on a char, maybe you won't be "last tier ready" within 1 day of dinging, but will actually have to run heroics -> previous LFR / reps -> current LFR / reps in order to access the last tier, making it still possible to reroll or gear up an alt, but not as dull and boring as it was in Wotlk/Cata, aka just spamming heroics for 7-8 hours and be done with it.

I also like the TBC model where the prior tier is still the current tier for many people. My arguments were largely a devil's advocate response to the egotistical crap about "entitlement" if we lowbies want to play with their bosses in LFR mode. We're not defective mouth-breathing morons, or at least not all of us. Some of us are just semi-retired from the hardcore life because it's largely full of drama and crap that we got tired of after years of doing it.

halabar wrote:It will be interesting to see the impact on the overall community as some guilds are clearing heroic T15 while others are still working on N T14. It's been a while since we had that kind of spread (really, not since BC, with Kara/Trolls/BT). Ever since then, everyone was pushed into the new tier. In the past we also had new heroics (such as the redone Trolls) to help bridge the gap for the undergeared, but we don't have that this time.

I for one welcome this return to TBC style. I always found... weird that the old tier basically got demoted even below PuG interest when a new tier came out since heroics / pvp would grant gear that was same or higher ilvl than the previous normal tier.

I also like the new way of helping people gear up through LFR, aka pumping the loot chance to a very high level (and with the new system, no loot drama!), will mean that if you newly ding 90 on a char, maybe you won't be "last tier ready" within 1 day of dinging, but will actually have to run heroics -> previous LFR / reps -> current LFR / reps in order to access the last tier, making it still possible to reroll or gear up an alt, but not as dull and boring as it was in Wotlk/Cata, aka just spamming heroics for 7-8 hours and be done with it.

And I don't really mind it at all, but there is probably a gap going from dinging 90 and hitting 5.0 LFRs that's still a bit rough. Would be better if that didn't require endless heroics, allthough the discounted valor gear will help.

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

Worldie wrote:With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

460 is a piece of cake. 470 is more difficult - you pretty much need the crafted items plus heroic gear in every slot. My druid had crafted hands and chest, 476 inscription weapon, and darkmoon trink and it still took a bit of grinding to hit 470. I could have bought some BoEs to make it easier, but 476 in a couple of slots really doesn't do much for the average when you're trying to hit 470. You're better off running heroics for the drops and JPs for upgrading your blues.

Worldie wrote:With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

460 is a piece of cake. 470 is more difficult - you pretty much need the crafted items plus heroic gear in every slot. My druid had crafted hands and chest, 476 inscription weapon, and darkmoon trink and it still took a bit of grinding to hit 470. I could have bought some BoEs to make it easier, but 476 in a couple of slots really doesn't do much for the average when you're trying to hit 470. You're better off running heroics for the drops and JPs for upgrading your blues.

Except no more JP upgrades...

Adding the new 522 valor neck will make a bigger difference. But if you can't get in LFR yet, that's still painful heroics to get the valor to start with.

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.

I think they should improve Scenario droprate of 463 blues. I think right now with just "a small chance" of getting a loot which you might not even need isn't enough to justify doing Scenarios for anything else than some quick Valors.

theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.

Worldie wrote:With 476 gear being very cheap, it doesnt take much to get 460 ilvl. At least I could get it easily in 1 day on my last 3 alts.

460 is a piece of cake. 470 is more difficult - you pretty much need the crafted items plus heroic gear in every slot. My druid had crafted hands and chest, 476 inscription weapon, and darkmoon trink and it still took a bit of grinding to hit 470. I could have bought some BoEs to make it easier, but 476 in a couple of slots really doesn't do much for the average when you're trying to hit 470. You're better off running heroics for the drops and JPs for upgrading your blues.

Except no more JP upgrades...

Adding the new 522 valor neck will make a bigger difference. But if you can't get in LFR yet, that's still painful heroics to get the valor to start with.

True about the lack of upgrades. That would make 470 a real pain. Not only is that two weeks of grinding valor because of the weekly cap, but it's also 250 daily quests' worth of valor to buy the piece. That's a mountain of work for an alt. I should have leveled my shaman, but I was prepping my drood for Mu-shu-pork-palace with some cross-server friends. Damn.

They don't "have to" farm LFR any more than casuals "have to" to the rep grinds and dailies. People have been telling me all along how if I didn't like dailies and rep grinds I don't have to do them. Well, if people want their kill to be fresh, they don't have to do LFR and burn themselves out on it, do they?

That would be why I used the word "incentivized" and not "have to".Blizzard isn't so stupid that they can't understand that players will do actions that their system incentivizes, so they delay the incentive.

The designer of a system cannot design a system that promotes doing X and then sit back and expect people to be too stupid to calculate that. As such, since Blizzard wants system X is place, but doesn't want to incentivize it as hard on a temporary basis, their chosen option is .... gating. For the intended audience for system X, the new content is somewhat accessible early and then takes longer to open fully (as they said, getting the first wings quick and then a longer delay to the final one with Lei Shen).

Since this ties in nicely with their gating plan as well as prolonging the patch, for Blizzard, it's a win-win. As far as they're concerned, it's a win for Raiders and since the target audience for LFR is getting the new content and then having it unlocked, it's "win" for them in that they're getting their new content (the only complaint being from rabid people on forums about "LFR is treated like second-class citizens". THESE are the people being referred to by others when it comes to entitlement).

This can't possibly work the other way however (all you're doing in reverse is creating the ICC/ToC era system which was universally terrible).

The fact that doing LFR is practically mandatory if you want to progress is irrelevant, because the rep/badge gear is practically mandatory if casuals want to progress. In both cases people are incentivised to do things they don't want to do, so I reckon the same advice applies to both cases.

One bad system doesn't really mean that Blizzard should hold thier hands in the air and do nothing. At the very least, this is something that they've finally acknowledged as an issue that existed since Dragon Soul LFR (the first version of LFR). They're adamant to pretend that dailies are optional, or that the inability to cap Valor while doing raiding for the week is bad design. That'll probably take another year or so for them to clue in.

This is their first version (and overall, it's not a great solution) of their solution at actually attempting to see the issue. The more important thing is that they understand that the issue exists.

True about the lack of upgrades. That would make 470 a real pain. Not only is that two weeks of grinding valor because of the weekly cap, but it's also 250 daily quests' worth of valor to buy the piece. That's a mountain of work for an alt. I should have leveled my shaman, but I was prepping my drood for Mu-shu-pork-palace with some cross-server friends. Damn.

If you're not at 470, your alt will presumably still be doing the old LFR for the upgrades you don't have yet, not doing 250 dailies, so phrasing it as "250 daily quests' worth of valor" is .... a bit misleading.Assuming you're not going into this patch with either exactly the amount required to buy the piece, or with capped Valor anyway.

That's true - I would still be getting valor from the 2 460 raids and from the instances I'd chain-run to get whatever blues I could. Still, without the JP upgrades, it will be more difficult to reach 470 unless the drop rate in 460 LFRs has been significantly improved.

My druid had 3 LFR drops that did not coincide with slots where she already had epics, which I would consider to be a lucky week for the 460 raids. Topped up with crafted chest and hands, inscription staff, DMC trink, and Sha boots she still needed upgrades to reach 470. Without upgrades, she'd pretty much be stuffed unless I dropped 30k on one of the high level BoE pieces or was content to let her sit and rot for another week's chances to get LFR pieces.

I wouldn't mind that as much if LFR loot wasn't so damn stupid. If you have a better piece in a 25-man raid, you don't roll on inferior items that drop. Why do they award inferior and duplicate items when others in the LFR could use those items? Seems to me that if they fixed that one aspect of LFR loot rewarding, people who need gear would see more of it. Having run LFR on my main since it was available in order to get an epic weapon, it really annoys me when DPS warriors say "great, the stupid 1-hand weapon again" while I get (if lucky) my 5th head token.

I wouldn't mind that as much if LFR loot wasn't so damn stupid. If you have a better piece in a 25-man raid, you don't roll on inferior items that drop. Why do they award inferior and duplicate items when others in the LFR could use those items?

Cause your roll doesn't affect theirs. Theoretically, all 25 people could get their items off the boss at the same time.If they said you can't get duplicate items, you'd have more complex logic for actual duplicate-necessary items (like 1h's but also for specs that use the same loot configured differently for different specs, not to mention multiple tokens actually allow for offspec gearing anyway).

The catchup isn't really invalidated if you "rot for a week" though. And if anything, the initial week means you're not compelled as hard on that front (getting Valor next week early on means you can happily do week 1 LFR with that 522 Neck just fine).

Darielle wrote:The catchup isn't really invalidated if you "rot for a week" though. And if anything, the initial week means you're not compelled as hard on that front (getting Valor next week early on means you can happily do week 1 LFR with that 522 Neck just fine).

Well, it does put you a week behind the 470 instance drops that you need to catch up to current gear levels. Yeah, it's only a week, I know.