I only saw the first 15 minutes and the last 15 minutes and it was the greatest Raw ever! Sounds like the worst Raw ever was in between. I guess the reason Swagger gets to keep his spot is that he is losing at WM anyway.

Punk has been bitching for weeks that he deserves to be in the main event at WM. I assume that leads to him saying he can still do that if he challenges the Undertaker?

Originally posted by F4Wonline.com Vince McMahon reportedly “blew a gasket” backstage at RAW last night during the CM Punk vs. John Cena main event. Word is that Vince got upset when Punk hit Cena with a piledriver, which is a banned move when done the way Punk did it. Vince was upset with Cena and Punk but because it was them, there will likely be no serious punishment.

I was expecting the Undertaker to come out and distract Punk, but I'll take the fantastic match that took place. I don't mind Cena kicking out of the piledriver, because Punk paused for several seconds after it was delivered before pinning.

Originally posted by Matt TrackerFor crying out loud, Jack, Antonio Cesaro is RIGHT THERE. With the US TITLE. And he's a furiner!

I don't know if it's the direction I want to see, but it was a bit surreal to see 'American who hates foreigners' character followed directly by 'foreigner who hates Americans (but likes America)' without any picking up on it.

Also, I was dying to know how Mexico's Alberto Del Rio proclamation of 'America is the best country in the world!' got translated for the Mexican audience.

Originally posted by thecubsfanI don't know if it's the direction I want to see, but it was a bit surreal to see 'American who hates foreigners' character followed directly by 'foreigner who hates Americans (but likes America)' without any picking up on it.

I'd like Zeb to offer a quick heel explanation as to why they don't object to Antonio. Maybe something as simple as "we want the WORLD title." Just so this angle doesn't devolve into We The People racism. Regardless of how Vince or others see the Tea Party rhetoric or how easy that suggestion gooses the audience heat, this angle doesn't need that tinge.

Originally posted by thecubsfanI don't know if it's the direction I want to see, but it was a bit surreal to see 'American who hates foreigners' character followed directly by 'foreigner who hates Americans (but likes America)' without any picking up on it.

I'd like Zeb to offer a quick heel explanation as to why they don't object to Antonio. Maybe something as simple as "we want the WORLD title." Just so this angle doesn't devolve into We The People racism. Regardless of how Vince or others see the Tea Party rhetoric or how easy that suggestion gooses the audience heat, this angle doesn't need that tinge.

He spoke a little bit about it -- that ADR is a hero and inspiration to millions of Mexicans and shows them "Yeah, you should come to America too and succeed like me!" It's not like we're being overrun by Swedes (or whatever Cesaro is, I can't recall) in his POV, so there's no need to object to him being an example to his countrymen.

I'm still going back and forth on what I think about this angle. I find the "they took our jobs" complaint to be utterly ludicrous, at least in the way they're using it with immigrants coming and taking jobs from Americans in America. Not to inject too much politics into things, but most of the people he's complaining about are taking jobs that Americans just won't do or don't want to do. And Swagger's comment about his dad losing his factory job, IMHO, is off target -- most of the time in those situations it's due to the company moving the factory to another country, not workers being replaced by immigrants. And while that's a legit issue and concern, it doesn't mesh at all with their stated "stay out of our country" mantra.

Originally posted by thecubsfanI don't know if it's the direction I want to see, but it was a bit surreal to see 'American who hates foreigners' character followed directly by 'foreigner who hates Americans (but likes America)' without any picking up on it.

I'd like Zeb to offer a quick heel explanation as to why they don't object to Antonio. Maybe something as simple as "we want the WORLD title." Just so this angle doesn't devolve into We The People racism. Regardless of how Vince or others see the Tea Party rhetoric or how easy that suggestion gooses the audience heat, this angle doesn't need that tinge.

Zeb and Swagger told Wade Barrett to his face on Smackdown they don't like him and he's no different from Alberto Del Rio.

The list of people in WWE they don't like, face or heel, is pretty long. Del Rio and Ricardo, Cesaro, Sheamus, Barrett, Rosa Mendes, Layla, Carlito and Primo, Rey Mysterio, Sin Cara, Natalya, Aksana, Tamina (was she born in America?), Chris Jericho (even though he was born in New York), Great Khali, Justin Gabriel, Tyson Kidd, Christian if he ever returns, etc. Who else?

ETA: Carlito isn't with the company any more to boot, and I have no idea where Epico is from.

(edited by Mike Zeidler on 26.2.13 1057)"Tattoos are the mullets of the aughts." - Mike Naimark

"Don't stop after beating the swords into ploughshares, don't stop! Go on beating and make musical instruments out of them. Whoever wants to make war again will have to turn them into ploughshares first" - Yehuda Amichai

Originally posted by Tenken347I don't have much to add beyond what everybody else has already said; blood in the opener and a piledriver in the closer, and a bunch of crap in between. The booking of last night's show was a complete mess, with half the roster getting absolutely buried in clean losses. Ziggler and Cesaro's losses were especially jarring. But the thing that bothers me the most is this weird feud between Sheamus and Barrett. So they're feuding over Barrett being in a movie opposite Colin Farrel (because he's Irish see!), which by itself is incredibly stupid. But Wade Barrett is the Intercontinental Champion! Why not have them feud over the Intercontinental Championship? Wade spent like ten minutes last night talking about how Sheamus is jealous, and did not once mention that he is a champion. It's incredibly frustrating to me.

I don't see what is weird about this at all. Instead of a movie starring a C-level WWE "Superstar" the WWE has a film starring Colin Farrell with the Director and star of "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" and Oscar Nominee Terrence Howard. This has the potential to be 100 times better than any WWE film so they want to promote it. Naturally they promote it with A) the guy who is in the movie and B) the guy who is Irish like Farrell. Admittedly that's not a great reason to include Sheamus but he is a big WWE Star and it would help to include somebody bigger than Barrett in the promotion and The Rock, Cena, Lesnar, HHH, Punk all have better things to do.

I'd love to see the Intercontinental Title get pushed because most of the WWE's biggest stars (Hart, HBK, Stone Cold, The Rock, Triple H, etc) I liked more as IC champions than World Champions but when given the choice of promoting the WWE's biggest foray into the movie business or a title nobody has cared about in 10 years I don't think there is much of a discussion. It might be the BEST way to book Sheamus or Barrett but it's not weird at all to want to promote a big movie.

Forgot to mention the audience and Lawler reaction to Orton's RKO. With no foreshadowing and while reversing a turnbuckle move, it went over like crazy. That's how you do it. DDP proved this works more than 10 years ago.

Originally posted by BigDaddyLocoThe problem I have with the We The People segment, other than it is trying too hard, is it just isn't interesting television.

Speaking of which the whole middle part of this show just seemed to go on forever.

Originally posted by Hogan's My DadSo Zeb's a great talker. Del Rio...was in a border state. So that kinda worked.

Ok, considering this just started it's getting fair reactions. Nothing overwhelming & it are a bit grinding depending on where it is in the three hour show. Yet, story & characters with this is so extremists that it is laughable but in those wonderful ways. As in Glenn Beck prides himself on being outspoken should have accept the invitation but they went with the next best thing advancing what they have. Which is Alberto Del Rio who's been transitioned from an snob Mexican aristocrat into a hero for the country. Swagger is with Zeb is being turned into the WWE's Constitutionlists which without having to post this in the current events topic is what I can identify with in this story. So can my father who's approaching 69 years old this year & his quote from this past Friday morning at breakfast is... "that is great!" He loves this "we the people." So topical facts piss off people, joy isn't this what Punk has done except mainly inside the "WWE Universe" & wrestling business where these stories and characters are based with more issue that have the real world reality involved. Which illicitness emotional responses and exactly why the WWE doing it!

Rest of the show, that was the hottest open in a while.

Liked Sheamus goofing around with Wade about him being in the background of the movie.

I agree with most everyone that said it felt like filler but still I enjoyed it for the most part. Especially that piece I typed for "we the people." above.

Alright, take us home guy who's using wrestling to keep up with current events...

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the piledriver was yet another clever troll of the smarks - first, to get them really excited about seeing it as it happens...and then, later, to jump on the Internet to talk about how it didn't end the match and how Super Cena won despite being piledriven.

Somebody finally told the commentators to stop saying "controversial" but it seems like they beat on THAT adjective about a ZILLION times during the first hour or so.

The replay of the WM21 "A Few Good Men" sketch with John Cena and JBL was one of the most baffling re-airs I've ever experienced on this show. Did somebody lose a bet?

Besides AJ and Vickie, were there any other women on tonight's show?

One thing you'll never see on WWE television is gun violence! (except in this trailer for The Marine 3: Homefront, STARRING THE MIZ)

I completely missed out on "The Call" being a WWE Films production - maybe they should have kept that a secret and seen if it helped the results at the box office. (Not that I'm really paying attention - I also didn't catch on right away that that was Halle Berry with a really, really bad hairdo.)

As much as I enjoy live tweeting the show, I inevitably just kinda give up about halfway through - and practically all of the "wrestling" folks I'm following stop tweeting even earlier than I do. Surely WWE gets numbers on social activity during their show...do you suppose there's anybody there who can actually ACT on those numbers? Given their insistence on staying with a 3:05+ show, there's got to be a way to come up with a middle two and a half hours that is actually watchable, that flows better, that keeps me from hopping onto Facebook instead of watching it. Hell, they could air "The Main Event."

Actually, that's not a bad idea - why not rerun the big match of "The Main Event" as part of "RAW?" While that's going on, you could simultaneously tape a match in the arena for future use to keep the live audience occupied.

As much as I enjoy live tweeting the show, I inevitably just kinda give up about halfway through - and practically all of the "wrestling" folks I'm following stop tweeting even earlier than I do. Surely WWE gets numbers on social activity during their show...do you suppose there's anybody there who can actually ACT on those numbers?

Depends if WWE can see the different between actual human beings tweeting and spam Twitter bots latching onto hashtags after the fact.

As much as I enjoy live tweeting the show, I inevitably just kinda give up about halfway through - and practically all of the "wrestling" folks I'm following stop tweeting even earlier than I do. Surely WWE gets numbers on social activity during their show...do you suppose there's anybody there who can actually ACT on those numbers?

Depends if WWE can see the different between actual human beings tweeting and spam Twitter bots latching onto hashtags after the fact.

They love to spout Trendrr numbers during their "Did You Know?" bits, so one would think (or hope) that they are partnered with a company/several companies who is/are able to do just that.

Like everyone else, I had pretty much no time for anything that happened between Heyman spearing Vince and the first commercial break in the main event match. Swagger vs. Del Rio is a weird mess and what they're doing with Ziggler and Cesaro is...well, I wanted to say baffling, but that's not true. I've been watching this stuff for too long to not know what they think they're doing.

But it's still kind of astounding that they can't see what they're doing wrong on a company-wide level when they take a guy like Cesaro and kick his legs out from under him right as he's establishing himself as the best act on TV. It's even worse than talented guys like Rhodes and Sandow getting steamrolled because Wrestlemania needs building, because Cesaro himself is presumably going to be asked to carry a segment of Wrestlemania ('s pre-show).

"So, uh, did you hear about the Undertaker randomly appearing at a live event this weekend, King?" "Yeah." "OK."

I will admit that HHH arriving for the kickoff to his $5 Million Moment Of Triumph and having a huge, unmissable wet spot all over his crotch from fear, ecstasy, sweat or some combination of all three was incredibly rewarding. Variations of "Did HHH just piss his pants? #Raw" had to be dominating their twitter trending views for a while there, which is nice.

Loved the final match, especially once they got back from the last commercial break, where I assumed they got the high sign to go all out. Punk avoiding the second flying shoulderblock (and his look to the hard camera after he did it) was a great spot by the two of them. That had to be the best top rope legdrop Cena's thrown to date. Cena's sitout powerbomb was a great spot - especially when he started it and I was trying to decide if he'd ever done one before. And it perfectly set-up Punk starting to cradle Cena later, where I assumed he had to be trying to powerbomb Cena as payback, because there's no way he'd be allowed to piledrive him...and then he did it and I was floored.

I give them both a ton of credit there. That was the first time where Punk was treated like a true equal all the way through the match, even in the loss. The Vice and the STFU were treated as equally as deadly, as were the GTS and the AA. I don't know if that was Cena deciding to pay Punk back or the two of them figuring this was the last big match they'll have for a long time, but again, Punk losing there, in that way, felt bigger than the "wins" over Cena, and it's a testament to the two of them working so well together and knowing how to build on the previous matches.

Where does that rank on the all-time great Raw matches? Is it possible Dallas gets the #1 and #2 spots with that and the famous 10 Man match?

Originally posted by CRZThe more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the piledriver was yet another clever troll of the smarks - first, to get them really excited about seeing it as it happens...and then, later, to jump on the Internet to talk about how it didn't end the match and how Super Cena won despite being piledriven.

I agree, at least in the sense that I'm not going to believe any "Vince is furious at them!" stuff. Punk and Cena are peerless as internet trolls, so I have zero doubt the two of them worked the spot in knowing the reaction it'd get from everyone and possibly even figuring they could amuse themselves by leaving "huge heat for Cena and Punk!" bait afterwards. I wouldn't even be surprised if they went all out like that to intentionally leave the bar too high for Rock-Cena II as some kind of passive agressive pact on their parts.

But anyway, regardless of the intent, the way they worked into the match coming after Cena's powerbomb really was kind of perfect to get that reaction in the moment.

The only downside of that match, in retrospect, is that it served as a reminder that we'll probably never get the big Punk-Cena Wrestlemania match that the last two or so years has begged for. It feels like there's some better world where that match happens at Wrestlemania, while the ideal WWE Title Match is Rock vs. Brock, with Brock having beaten Cena and HHH and now coming for the belt and Rock having to beat the man who effectively retired him, the one man he could never beat to save This Business at Wrestlemania.

Originally posted by CRZSomebody finally told the commentators to stop saying "controversial" but it seems like they beat on THAT adjective about a ZILLION times during the first hour or so.

I noticed in the last two matches Cole talking about one of the wrestlers "rallying" to come back during the match, so I'm sure that's now on the list of words to say run into the ground until it loses all meaning. That, and Josh Mathews on Smackdown Friday night saying practically EVERYTHING has Wrestlemania "implications" or World Title "implications."

@gregmparks - live Tweeting of Raw and Impact, wrestling thoughts and other slices of life.

Originally posted by Dr UnlikelyThe only downside of that match, in retrospect, is that it served as a reminder that we'll probably never get the big Punk-Cena Wrestlemania match that the last two or so years has begged for.

If you could retrofit everything, it would've been pretty cool and symmetric if the Wrestlemania 27 main event had been Cena vs. Punk (WWE champion and leader of Nexus) with Rock as ... host, enforcer, whatever he was. Then it's this three-year interwoven saga between those three guys. It fits, since history has born out that Miz was masquerading in Punk's rightful #1 heel spot, but main eventing Wrestlemania would've sort of changed Punk's indignant tune when the big promo in July rolled around.

Originally posted by Dr UnlikelyI don't know if that was Cena deciding to pay Punk back or the two of them figuring this was the last big match they'll have for a long time

Your instincts are sound -- from the Observer: "While some think going back to Cena vs. Punk after Mania is the natural direction, Vince McMahon has made it clear he’s tired of that program for now." So it seems like they elected to treat this as the 2-years-in-the-making blowoff match they didn't expect to be having anytime soon.

But I suspect that like Cena/Edge and Cena/Orton and Cody/Kaitlyn, they'll find their way back to each other again.

Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID

Originally posted by Dr UnlikelyWhere does that rank on the all-time great Raw matches? Is it possible Dallas gets the #1 and #2 spots with that and the famous 10 Man match?

Only time will tell, but last night's match had a "This should be the WrestleMania main event" feel that I don't think I've ever gotten from a match on RAW, which has to put it up there.

Other great matches have to be Cena/HBK from 2007, Austin/HHH-Benoit/Jericho.

Yeah, it shoots past all but the very best if only because "30 minute PPV main events with finisher kickouts and a clean finish" are pretty much never on Raw, just because Raw's not the place you would do that.

I've been thinking for a good long time now that Jericho should be using his Kawada-ish jumping enziguiri as a finisher. It's fast, it looks great, it's easy for the opponent to sell (fall down! Play dead!)