Are we setting ourselves up for a huge liability? - Home Energy Pros2015-03-31T20:59:32Zhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/forum/topics/are-we-setting-ourselves-up-for-a-huge-liability?commentId=6069565%3AComment%3A89170&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGood day John:
As a similarly…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-26:6069565:Comment:898632012-07-26T16:05:55.116ZMichael Matthewshttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/MichaelMatthews
<p>Good day John:</p>
<p>As a similarly minded person, so it would seem, I have similar concerns. The program which I work for has a policy of installing an ASHRAE 62.2 (modified) compliant fan in every house we retrofit. This method is to address the issues of excess mold and moisture once the home is air sealed and tightened. My issue, we work on homes built in the early 1900s sometimes that we have no relevant history about. We install the fan regardless of the initial BD readings. Retrofit…</p>
<p>Good day John:</p>
<p>As a similarly minded person, so it would seem, I have similar concerns. The program which I work for has a policy of installing an ASHRAE 62.2 (modified) compliant fan in every house we retrofit. This method is to address the issues of excess mold and moisture once the home is air sealed and tightened. My issue, we work on homes built in the early 1900s sometimes that we have no relevant history about. We install the fan regardless of the initial BD readings. Retrofit is performed and the fan is designed to ventilate mechanically. The air is introduced from 100 plus year-old crawlspaces, attics and walls, and flows into the home as "fresh air". I realize that this is on the other end of the spectrum from your problem but I guess my point is that the solution to go as you said "Hellbent" the other direction without yield, is not the answer either. Maybe if enough people offer ideas then it will get the attention of those who should be paying attention. Thanks for voicing your opinion.</p> With such a low bill ti sound…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-22:6069565:Comment:893952012-07-22T11:56:47.713ZBob Blanchettehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BobBlanchette
<p>With such a low bill ti sounds like the HO lives alone. Maybe a water heater timer if they are all-electric?</p>
<p>With such a low bill ti sounds like the HO lives alone. Maybe a water heater timer if they are all-electric?</p> You hit the nail on the head,…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-22:6069565:Comment:894872012-07-22T04:05:36.596ZJohn Redmondhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JohnRedmond
<p>You hit the nail on the head, Bob. But as you have already alluded to, these federal programs are not energy-efficiency programs...they are pseudo-job programs. If they were the former, they would be targeting homes on the high square footage scale that have much higher energy usage.</p>
<p><br></br>Technically speaking, on the home I cited in my originally post, we found her water heater was set at 140 degrees. We moved it to 120, and, in a perfect world, that probably would have come close to…</p>
<p>You hit the nail on the head, Bob. But as you have already alluded to, these federal programs are not energy-efficiency programs...they are pseudo-job programs. If they were the former, they would be targeting homes on the high square footage scale that have much higher energy usage.</p>
<p><br/>Technically speaking, on the home I cited in my originally post, we found her water heater was set at 140 degrees. We moved it to 120, and, in a perfect world, that probably would have come close to doing the trick by itself without spending a penny, but we are required to partake in the other three measures regardless of health, safety, or durability.</p> The problem is the funds aren…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-21:6069565:Comment:892882012-07-21T17:15:33.572ZBob Blanchettehttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/BobBlanchette
<p>The problem is the funds aren't being targeted properly. Funds should be targeted to those with large utility bills, not trying to squeeze even lower bills out of an already efficient home. Instead of a 15% reduction, they should ask for a DOLLAR reduction in annual bills. $400 annually anticipated reduction for the $2,000 spent on energy savings. Spending $2,000 to save $100/yr in energy bills only makes sense when the government gets involved...</p>
<p>The problem is the funds aren't being targeted properly. Funds should be targeted to those with large utility bills, not trying to squeeze even lower bills out of an already efficient home. Instead of a 15% reduction, they should ask for a DOLLAR reduction in annual bills. $400 annually anticipated reduction for the $2,000 spent on energy savings. Spending $2,000 to save $100/yr in energy bills only makes sense when the government gets involved...</p> One obvious risk in emphasizi…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-20:6069565:Comment:895142012-07-20T19:45:08.046ZJoseph Lamyhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JosephLamy
<p>One obvious risk in emphasizing air-sealing the envelope primarily is the CAZ problem that could be exacerbated by supply duct leaks to the outside or return leaks in the CAZ going untouched while air-sealing the envelope. The pressure on the CAZ will of course increase back-drafting likelihood, and do so in a house where outside air has just been all but eliminated with your 'killer' air-sealing job.</p>
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<p>Bottom line: Seal air ducts first. Seal envelope second. Check your BAS and…</p>
<p>One obvious risk in emphasizing air-sealing the envelope primarily is the CAZ problem that could be exacerbated by supply duct leaks to the outside or return leaks in the CAZ going untouched while air-sealing the envelope. The pressure on the CAZ will of course increase back-drafting likelihood, and do so in a house where outside air has just been all but eliminated with your 'killer' air-sealing job.</p>
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<p>Bottom line: Seal air ducts first. Seal envelope second. Check your BAS and your CAZ. Pay your liability insurance premiums on time. Calibrate equipment regularly. Buy your Louis Vittones on ebay.</p> One thing that I believe coul…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-20:6069565:Comment:894712012-07-20T13:10:21.757ZGeorge W. Reynoldshttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/GeorgeWReynolds
<p>One thing that I believe could become an issue is that the tighter the house, the quicker it will become toxic without electricity. The problem goes beyond mold. It is aerosols from high velocity efficient toilets, active radon mitigation systems, emissions from building materials (that pass in test chambers using ventilation rates greater than a house without power ).</p>
<p>All of the .gov programs assume that electricity can be restored in some brief period of time. Witness the recent…</p>
<p>One thing that I believe could become an issue is that the tighter the house, the quicker it will become toxic without electricity. The problem goes beyond mold. It is aerosols from high velocity efficient toilets, active radon mitigation systems, emissions from building materials (that pass in test chambers using ventilation rates greater than a house without power ).</p>
<p>All of the .gov programs assume that electricity can be restored in some brief period of time. Witness the recent thunderstorms that shutdown large areas of the northeast and was followed by a heat wave that is still ongoing. Witness the complete shutdown of the nuclear utilities in Japan and some of our own systems (coal and nuclear) trying to deal with a dwindling supply of cold water from rivers and lakes.</p>
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<p>Yes, everybody should cut waste whenever possible, so long as it poses no health risk to the occupants. Ultimately, houses should be sustainable without the dependence of non-renewable energy. I would doubt the lobbyist will ever let this come about. As for government funding, forget it. This money is coming from your grand kids to pay for somebody's entertainment center or walk-in wine cooler. </p>
<p>There should be rebates from utilities for real upgrades such as efficient lighting, recycled insulation, HVAC that use the new inverter condenser, hot water heat pumps and solar hot water. All of this could be done without federal oversight and taxpayers expense. </p>
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<p></p> I suppose the potential is th…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-20:6069565:Comment:895062012-07-20T12:19:50.974ZEd Minchhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/EdMinch
<p>I suppose the potential is there, but after many thousands of retrofits over 32 years we have not seen this. We are in the mid-Atlantic.</p>
<p>I suppose the potential is there, but after many thousands of retrofits over 32 years we have not seen this. We are in the mid-Atlantic.</p> Very easy, Ed. Anytime you ha…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-20:6069565:Comment:892002012-07-20T02:39:07.591ZJohn Redmondhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/JohnRedmond
<p>Very easy, Ed. Anytime you have an already over-sized system, and you accentuate it by sealing up the envelope, it breeds the possibility of mold due to short cycling.</p>
<p>Very easy, Ed. Anytime you have an already over-sized system, and you accentuate it by sealing up the envelope, it breeds the possibility of mold due to short cycling.</p> John
I am a little confused.…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-19:6069565:Comment:893512012-07-19T15:03:28.859ZEd Minchhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/EdMinch
<p>John</p>
<p>I am a little confused. How will oversizing her heater be a health and safety issue (unless you are talking about a potential CAZ problem which is easily solvable)? If you do what the program tells you to do, even if you were able to convince them to change their stance, you should not be in trouble. If you are working to industry standards under the auspices of an official program and you keep your emails, I don't see a problem.</p>
<p>i just looked at water dripping off of…</p>
<p>John</p>
<p>I am a little confused. How will oversizing her heater be a health and safety issue (unless you are talking about a potential CAZ problem which is easily solvable)? If you do what the program tells you to do, even if you were able to convince them to change their stance, you should not be in trouble. If you are working to industry standards under the auspices of an official program and you keep your emails, I don't see a problem.</p>
<p>i just looked at water dripping off of ductwork in the basement on these hot days in a house we retrofitted, and we found a fix that won't cost anything and a homeowner who sees us diligently trying to help. Most problems are easliy fixable.</p>
<p>Of course anybody can sue you for anything, but after many thousands of retrofits, the only lawsuit we have been threatened with is over foam on a Louis Vittone (sp?) handbag that was on the closet shelf below the hatch. It had a broken strap and missing clasp and we found a better one on eBay for $200, but the guy wanted $2500.</p> Great example Randy and good…tag:homeenergypros.lbl.gov,2012-07-18:6069565:Comment:891702012-07-18T20:29:37.573ZBud Pollhttp://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profile/EverettPoll
<p>Great example Randy and good that it was your house. </p>
<p>When I started in this business one of the first decisions I made was to walk away when there were concerns that would not be addressed for one reason or another. But, I have the advantage of having been in my own business for over 35 years and my insurance agent is a friend/relative. Staying out of trouble is difficult enough without knowingly doing things you know are wrong.</p>
<p>Today I put all of this under the heading of…</p>
<p>Great example Randy and good that it was your house. </p>
<p>When I started in this business one of the first decisions I made was to walk away when there were concerns that would not be addressed for one reason or another. But, I have the advantage of having been in my own business for over 35 years and my insurance agent is a friend/relative. Staying out of trouble is difficult enough without knowingly doing things you know are wrong.</p>
<p>Today I put all of this under the heading of education and if they don't want to listen and follow my advice, that's the end of my involvement.</p>
<p>As for your dilemma with a government program you should consult your insurance agent, since they are the ones who will be on the hook. If s/he cannot come up with a workable solution, then your decision has already been made. You could also ask that the program provide insurance coverage, but that would be just for laughs.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Bud</p>