Nikon has posted teaser number five for its full-frame mirrorless system that will be announced in just three days. In this one, early users of the camera share their first impressions, and there's also a quick glimpse of an F-mount adapter.

Nikon will do some marketing research and if they find that most customers want big and heavy, they will make big and heavy cameras. If they find more people like small, you will see more small cameras.

Mirrorless AF has already surpassed DSLR (Sony A9) and will only get better. Chances for a really big MILC are slim to none, I would say.

Why do you have to put up with so much abuse? Get the damn camera, and just stay quiet. She will eventually taper down the bitching after 6 months, with sporadic episodes every now and then. In order to deal with it, make sure you take a lot more photos just to be out of the house.

This camera does not look small at all. Looks bigger than my D3200. This F adapter may cause AF problems and why should I buy a camera that does not support my expensive Nikon lenses? I dont think AF will satisfy sports and bird pros. Wedding pros will certainly like it bec of weight. Instead of heavy neck-breaker D850, this small guy with a small 50 mm will conquer the hearts of fashion pros.

Royal Majesty: I would prefer D850 rather than Sony or Nikon mirrorless FF. However there are people who cannot use tripod all the time esp wedding pros with 2 huge bodies and heavy lenses, one in the shoulder and one on the neck. Weight is an important issue for a little lady wedding pro. For a photojournalist D850 on a monopod is much better with better AF performance than mirrorless. Everybody has his own priorities depending on what you do. But DSLR wont be over soon bec of better AF and stronger, more reliable body.

I compared cams with similar price tags. D5 is better and built for action however its DR is very poor at base ISO. I know a photojournalist who has neck disk heria bec of biggest Nikon cams. They are human too they break their necks to get paid in football competions.

Specifically regarding the D5's sensor, true, dynamic range is poor and it is far from ISO-invariant. However, it is exceptional when shooting at high ISO. Which is how action shooters shoot. Fast shutter speeds are necessary, not lifting shadows in post. Which makes its sensor even more beneficial.

But clearly, the D5 is not the camera for landscape or portrait photographers. That's what the D8xx series is for. If your friend can't handle shooting a D4/D5 or 1DX, she'll be missing the shots other photojournalists will be getting. So she's at a clear competitive disadvantage. Not that she can't get great shots, it's just likely that the D5 shooter will get more and better ones.

Every camera has its own purpose and target different consumer. Nikon failed in its first mirrorless attempt with 1 inch sensor. I think this time they will succeed but it needs perfection with 2nd, 3rd versions. I dont think pros will jump on the first version with an expensive price tag and you cant use your expensive lens collection. Adapters cause more problems than solutions and AF may not work properly.

Oh, these cameras are better than the Sony 7RM3 and 7M3 that they are targeting. Pretty low bar to step over, and Nikon did step over it.

The adapter supposedly offers pretty seamless use of F-mount lenses and i believe that'll prove true. Arguably providing even better image stabilization as get lens VR and IBIS. But it'll burn batteries down since it will be holding spring apertures open via electromagnet unless your F-mount lens is an E lens.

Frankly, i think this camera+adapter would serve your purpose almost perfectly and make you very happy. Based on what you're saying you want, this is your camera. But carry 2 extra batteries even if you don't shoot a lot. Seriously, that adapter is going to eat batteries just like the FT1 did.

Thx for the link. The Z's seem to be as small as Sony Alpha or Fuji XT series. So ergonomically the Z's won't be that much different, unfortunately. Apart from that they don't look like 'pro' tools (dials and button design) compared to Nikons higher-end gear. So pricewise I'd value it between A6500 and A7x3. I personally think Z6 should not be offered for more than 1.6k to 1.8 (with Adapter).

P.S.: Am I the only one who wants a bigger fullframe milc with Canikons dslr-like ergonomics? I don't care that much about 300g.

No, lichtfresser,you are not alone! I'm so upset with Nikon for making an a9 clone, don't get me started!

I want a mirrorless with IDENTICAL ergonomics to the D850 or D750.

My take is that since Nikon knows its AF won't compete with DSLRs that they're not going to attract pros or serious amateurs that don't whine about a few ounces and 1/4" here and 1/4" there, and instead are just going after the poser Sony market that only cares about whether their $5,000 camera will fit comfortably in their purses...

After seeing the actual reveal, it looks and is laid out a lot like a Sony a9, but it performs oh so so much like a 7RM3 for the Z7 and like a 7M3 for the Z6. Except better than the Sonys. Gotta see how the AF performs, but this looks to hands-down be a Sony-killer. But STILL not as good as a DSLR!

"There is also no film mode on the dial. I'd prefer a camera that moves to video adapted menus when in movie mode, but maybe that's not how it is done."There's a photo/video toggle. just to the right of the viewfinder hump.

@Eleson-There are no Scene modes, but there are 3 programmable Mode Settings: U1, U2, U3. You can setup the camera the way you'd like to shoot for 3 different scenes, then save those preferences to the 3 dial spots.

"if you zoom in it is still super sharp" what kind of photographer are you? Lenses are what determines sharpness more than anything, and zooming in is relevant to your displays resolution, and technology. If Sarah moon was to zoom in and it wasn't super sharp it would be a good thing. Glad Nikon is getting into the game, but seriously need to control their message delivered.

Very disappointed at the screen. I really don't understand why camera makers don't care about screen which is important for digital imaging. Nowadays even a 150usd chinese phone has good screen (brightness, color accuracy and difinition), these camera makers are still using screens from 10 years ago and even getting worse in assembly.

That F adapter leaked pic looks good.Anything is better than the God awful LAEA4 Sony tried to push on A mount users. Fixed f3.5, a mediocre AF system from 2012, etc.My A mount lenses have lost half their value again in the last year or so.A mount lenses have lost more value than Samsung lenses!!!

Sonys lose value fast because they are iterated quickly. Nikon's depreciation rate will be based on how quickly the iterate the next body update. If they follow Fuji's model and push useful updates via software, instead of updates being tied to new hardware, the bodies will hold their value longer.

@OldSonyGuy I don't care about the value of my A-Mount lenses. I've got some wonderful Minolta lenses which I use regularly and which I am not going to sell. Their value could drop to $0 and it wouldn't make a difference to me.

He is only talking about his opinion of what he considers Nikon professional cameras. That is why he is not taking into account the A7iii. Nor should he if does not like it, I doubt he cares if it is sold out or not, if that is what you base your choice on that is up to you. Me personally I would also base it on whether I like a camera or not and not whether it is in stock or not. Seems a ridiculous way of thinking...or non thinking idk.

"T3 One aspect of "professional choice" is a choice of lenses, which these Nikon mirrorless cameras will be sparse on for a while."

Do you REALLY think the Nikon mirrorless camera will not work as well as the Nikon 1 mirrorless cameras with the full range of Nikon lenses, using the adapter? No, Nikon won't have a full set of native lenses for their new, full-frame mirrorless cameras for a few years, but since we can use the lenses that are already on the market, the transition will be fine. Sure, D lenses might not auto-focus, but depending on the adapter maybe they WILL work on the new, full-frame, mirrorless cameras.

@Scottelly - Sony, Canon, Olympus have been through this "adapt our DSLR lenses" path already. Adapting DSLR lenses to mirrorless bodies is not as popular or as widely done as some people expect it to be. What really happens is that mirrorless buyers complain that their aren't enough mirrorless lenses, or people with DSLR lenses just stick to using DSLRs, or (more recently) people switch to a mirrorless system that has a better lens selection. It's only a minority of people who really end up adapting DSLR lenses to a significant degree. For diehard Nikon users who have no interest in switching brands, I think most will just hold off until Nikon builds out their mirrorless lens selection and wait for 2nd or 3rd generation bodies.

Wedding/portrait photographers sure would like FULL-compatibility with their 135mm F2D DC lens though. Kinda don't see that with the adapter. But it would be easy for Nikon to put a screw-driven motor in the adapter. I just don't see them doing it. Hope I'm wrong!

I've always said adopters are a very powerful and useful option, But I've also always said that people prefer native mirrorless lenses. Native lenses are the overwhelming preference. And very soon, Nikon users will find that for themselves, because we Canon and Sony mirrorless users have already been this route. But the big difference is that if you wanted FF mirrorless, you didn't have any other option other than Sony, and since their system was not as deep as it is today you could opt for adapting lenses. That's not the situation anymore. There are going to be a lot more options for FF mirrorless now, and adapting lenses is not quite going to be as attractive as it once was. And for many people, adapting lenses was *never* a good option!

So basicly a bunch of no name photographers or as they said "social media creators" *shivers in cringe* Are reading what Nikon told them to read: "It feels like a DSLR but its different" Wow what an amazing comment that has ZERO value just like the peoples credibility in this video.

Look at his photos and how much he produces and tell me if it even matters whether his followers are bought or not. He's got the chops to test some cameras and show them off, I'm fairly confident of that.

"its just like another brick in the Wall" ? Light weight its already on the right path but it will be expected small as well, if is FX it has to match A7 in size at least and if is DX it has to match X-T100...For bulky stuff we have already plenty.

Who told you it must match A7 in size? Most users think A7 is too small. Buy a small camera and then buy accessaries to improve ergonomics. What a joke! Look at phone, especially those in girls' hands. How big they are! Size doesn't matter as long as it is not too chunky.

Sony doesn't overheat? Lol on that one. A Sony owner was telling me last week about recent shutdown hassles due to overheating and the things he is going to try to reduce the problem. Really, running a sensor all the time is going to make a mirrorless camera more likely to overheat (and eat batteries). Just part of the game.

Sony's had overheat issues in the past, not sure if they do for their latest generation. But I remember when they starting rolling out 4K that they had a 30 minute time limit, and even then when using in high ambient temps outdoors or in direct sunlight, they would overheat and shut off while filming.

Also FYI, all my stuff is sony now. I'm a full convert, but I don't do much video, so the overheating time limits don't bother me.

Zerblatt and flatpicknut: what camera models are those? The new models don't have that problem, and for the older ones the overheating was fixed by firmware update.

OK, if you take continuous 30min 4k video in the desert heat, maybe the camera will protect itself, but in real life it is not a problem. (And for those kinds of video, you are better of with a dedicated video camera perhaps).

Neez: the 30min time limit is only because of EU tax laws. Without that limit, they would be taxed higher in EU and be more expensive. For the mark ii models, there is an OPEN MEMORY TWEAK that can be installed to disable that limit and record unlimited 4k. (Well, limited by your SD card capacity).

I just hope the 4k video does not squeeze the image like the Sony at 24p. The Sony image makes everything more slender, it is not very accurate. It is subtle and I bet most people don't even know it but, I want accurate.

I have both the A7RIII and AIII. So far shot in monsoon conditions as well as 120°F all day long. This current generation doesn’t overheat (and water resistance is pretty good, too.) Previous generations had issues with overheating. Not this one.

"It's just like a DSLR but physically it's totally different because it's so light weight."

How light weight is it when I add the same heavy lenses to the body? The whole idea of M4/3 was smaller lenses and they delivered on that. With the lens flange to sensor being shorter, by getting rid of the mirror box, does this allow for smaller/lighter lenses? I would think that the same size glass would be needed to cover the same size image circle of the sensor.

To take advantage of this smaller, lighter new body, you'll need new lenses but the most enthusiastic Nikon users have lots of old lenses and have just bought a D850 so there has to be a trouble-free adapter. Presumably, Nikon didn't see any big limitations to SLRs, so they've been working on a solution without a problem and that's why this has taken so long.

In fact, this new solution is the problem. How do you create a camera that does things a D850 cannot do, yet is in some way inferior, so you need both types?

Nikon IMHO is a Day Late and a Dollar short... They are milking this release like I have never seen, and the latest videos are simply dreaded awful.. Nothing against the photographers, Im sure they do great work, but All this hype is going to be an announcement for an announcement..

On Aug23, Nikon is going to make an announcement, about another announcement...

Its crazy that they are doing this... They really are losing market share to the A7iii release, and they are trying to stop the bleeding it seems...

And I dont know if anyone knows this, but Nikon Rumors and Other sites said that Nikon was going to announce their mirrorless at CP + a few months ago..This was stated and it was going to happen, however, they never announced, which is interesting b/c that is when Sony announced the A7iii..

Coincidence, maybe? But It could have caused Nikon to re-assess..

What I dont get, is where is the press event where phtographers get tot est the gear and give impressions? seriously?

No need to hate on Nikon, late to the game blabla.. I am happy that we get more competition, it is actually GOOD for us consumers.I actually shoot Fuji and don't intend to change, however, I also tried 4 Sony cams and sold all of them, so competition is welcome..

I'm fully invested in Sony so I don't have a vested interest in what Nikon does - but it seems naive to think this won't be a success if for no other reason, because there are plenty of dedicated Nikon users that will want to stay within the Nikon ecosystem.

It would only fail if it were a complete disaster and I can't imagine that happening. Even with the Sony LEA adapter and the third party adapters the performance isn't the same as native mount lenses. If they get better performance out of their adapter they can claim success.

"...and the thousands of comments show great interest." half of these being ridicule. Will see how that ridicule translates into sales and how many Nikon users will make the switch form Nikon DSLR to Nikon mirrorless.

I think it's funny. It's not as if Canon, Pentax, or any other DSLR manufacturer made cameras that splattered the sensor with oil. Nikon was the only one, as far as I am aware, and I see a lot of camera news. It's pretty sad what happened, and Nikon deserves ridicule for it. Hopefully there will be no oil spots on their new mirrorless camera sensors, from the focal plane shutter.

@Zerblatt - a little sensitive are we? It's just a joke man - I had the oil spitting D600 and I also had to do a lot of calibration with it and it was never really great at ttl focusing. I'd buy this mirrorless camera of theirs in a flash if it has everything I want.

The problem with this campaign is that people are expecting the impossible. In a comment here someone was saying the f4 lens with this mount will be like a f2.8, and that’s impossible! Someone was asking about the glowing mount...

Even if the camera is amazing, some people will feel frustrated because they created crazy expectations with the tease campaign.

Pan tunes - there may be one or two who ‘expect the impossible’, in which I would contend that they don’t fully understand any cameras. As for the glowing mount..........well!

And Sony didn’t really have a sense of urgency with their mirrorless introductions - virtually no competition that they were losing business to. Not the case with Nikon of course, and I agree with others that one key objective was to make a few people hang on before jumping - and I’ve already seen the effect at my local camera store - Nikon users are waiting (not the case with Canon users!).

Nikon have done a great job with this campaign, makes no difference whether people liked it or not.

But, as always, it all depends on the product delivering - if not Nikon will have flak of their own making, and even though this is Nikon we’re talking about I think they realise that. Sales will be the arbiter of course.

NOt a word on in body lens stabilization though. Without this introduction I shall stay with my D800, since the sole advantage the Sonys has is to stabilize ANY lens you put on them.

If, as seems likely Nikon make the fatal error of having no in-body Image stabilization, they will simply lose sales from everyone who has non-stabilized Nikon lenses.

If you have AF-D and AF-S and Ai-S lens types you use on D bodies with no stabilization on Nikon mirrorless, there is NO point switching to mirrorless Nikon, since they are all stabilized on other bodies with adaptors, (and not only mirrorless E mount Sonys either.

@ovrebekk - miggylicious may be correct. Look at 3rd-party AF lens support for Canon's EOS M system. For the Sony E-mount system, these are the manufacturers and numbers of AF lenses they make for Sony mirrorless:

And yet, not one of these manufacturers makes a single AF lens for EOS M, a system that has been around since 2012. For example, Sigma makes five APS-C mirrorless lenses (their DN series): 16/1.4 DN, 30/1.4 DN 19/2.8 DN, 30/2.8 DN, 60/2.8 DN, but these lenses are only available for Sony E-mount and m4/3 mount. No Canon EF-M compatibility. That's actually one reason why I stopped using EOS M: total lack of third-party AF lens support!

@T3 - I was mainly thinking about IBIS, which the Nikon mirrorless will have according to the rumors.

As for the Canon M mount I can only speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised if the market for this is too small for the third party lens manufacturers to bother. Nikon is happy to let others make Nikon F lenses, and I don't see why they would change that with their mirrorless offering?

Well the Sony A7RIII can now be had brand new for under £2300, so the advent of the Nikon via these teasers is certainly having an effect!

This will be because we can all use our Nikkors better on a mirrorless Nikon than a mirrorless Sony and because it is likely that ergonomics, weather-sealing and battery life will simply outclass the Sony alternatives (nothing new here...)

If the adaptor is as FAST in use as the F mount alternative, I might be interested, one day, maybe. But my a6000 lovely toy though it is sits unused , with several native lenses, Sigma lenses and F and Olympus adaptors, because it just cannot be trusted!!

Sony has years of refining battery life and creating low power electronic systems from its pro video camera business. The Nikon milc will have inferior battery life to Sony - that's not even in the balance.

"Sony spoke truly. Except for the bottom this camera has thorough and extensive weather sealing, as good as any camera I’ve seen. (...) That being said, the bottom of the camera is not protected worth a damn.

The bottom of the camera is a weak spot. The next Sony camera will eliminate this problem and you'll have to find something else to moan about. In the meantime you can solve the issue by attaching the grip.

Regarding ergonomics - the word is simply abused in these forums. Sony cameras don't have poor ergonomics in any way. The cameras are just smaller and not what you're used to. No-one criticises A-mount cameras for their ergonomics - they're also made by Sony.

RD- Ergonomics, you cannot speak for others here. You just can't. People have their preferences and you can't tell them what they prefer. I've seen quite a lot of opinion about the ergonomics being substandard even from those that like the cameras, are you kidding? Whether they do, or do not, you can't tell them what to think.

I'm not telling anyone what to think. I said the term ergonomics is abused on here and it is. I'm a designer for a living and I do some prototyping and one of the biggest obstacles is prior learning, as well as discoverability and feedback of function.

People bring prior learning to a new device and if it behaves in a different or unexpected way people often dismiss it. Cameras are designed by the same people across the board. Exactly the same designers work at Sony as at Nikon and elsewhere. There isn't any difference between how they work. Design protocols are also broadly similar across all camera brands. Where there is difference in design it is usually through iteration. the A6000 series for example evolved as a body design from an earlier. simpler camera. That's why it doesn't have a front control wheel, which makes it ergonomically poorer than say an M5.

When it comes to a camera like the A7III, a complaint you often hear is - 'my pinky has nowhere to go.' Exactly the same thing happens when you use a Canon 80D but you never hear this complaint. Why? Because people don't expect their pinky to have anywhere to go on that camera. Expectation is driving that criticism. People expect the body to be bigger because it's what they're used to on their DSLRs.

There's actually no reason why your pinky should fit on the grip. It's not a requirement of using the device. Some cameras are not even designed to be hand held. When we design something we make choices. The designers of the FF Sony milcs have prioritised smaller size over a longer grip and produced an add-on grip for those who want it.

Much of the criticism of Sony ergonomics is based on the notion held by many Canon and Nikon users that Sony is an upstart company and has no expertise making cameras. This leads to confirmation bias in their mind every time they encounter a different design protocol to one they're used to.

The truth as I say is that Sony employs exactly the same kind of designers as any other company and their prototyping process will not be different. The first thing I think when I lift up a D500 is that it is too heavy. The next thing is that the D-pad on the back feels plasticky and flimsy. This is because it is different to what I'm used to.

The criticism of Sony's ergonomics only arose when they moved to a smaller body size. If you give an A77 or A99 to a Canikon user they will not complain about the ergonomics. Well, these cameras were also designed by Sony - but they are larger and more DSLR-like, so provide less of a challenge to prior learning or expectation.

Lens rentals has good photos of returned Sony cameras that were completely ruined because saltwater seeps up through their unsealed bottoms.Since the bottom is the part that comes in contact with other things the most and the part most likely to be hit by splashing water and the part we are least likely to cover...this is the WORST part for Sony to neglect.

Basically since Sony leaves some pretty wide open holes and gaps in the bottom and battery compartment, their weather resistance is near useless.

@Rubberdials... "..I am a designer..." followed by again one of your oh so lengthy rants... which makes it very clear...you are not! Certainly nothing having to do with camera design.

Do us all a favor, hold an A7..any model (which you do not actually own any of).. post a video of yourself:

1. Adjusting the front dial (while only holding the camera with one hand)

2. Please share with us your index finger lying on the shutter release..in what looks like an "ergonomic" fashion.

3. Followed by your thumb resting on the back of the camera... in an apparently secure way of holding the camera.

The list goes on.. but I am 100% certain you are already 0 for 3.And spare us all please, sharing your thoughts (for the 100th time) that the power on switch with Canon one needs 2 hands since it is on the left side.

Rubber Dials . . . "Regarding ergonomics - the word is simply abused in these forums. Sony cameras don't have poor ergonomics in any way. The cameras are just smaller and not what you're used to. No-one criticises A-mount cameras for their ergonomics - they're also made by Sony."

The A-mount cameras, like my A65, DO have good ergonomics. You're right about that. I had an A55 and an A77, and both of those had good ergonomics too. I still prefer the ergonomics of my Sigma SD1 Merrill though. Unfortunately the SD Quattro H doesn't have ergonomics that are as good, and neither camera has fold-out screens like the Sony cameras. The Sigmas lack a lot features too, so I have a Sony A7 and A65 to fill in where the Sigmas are missing things.

I am looking forward to seeing what this new Nikon line of mirrorless cameras is like. If they offer the same dynamic range as other Nikons, I might get one.

Its one thing to say that *you* think Sony doesn't have bad ergonomics, its completely different and false to say "... Sony cameras don't have poor ergonomics in any way. The cameras are just smaller and not what you're used to. No-one criticises A-mount cameras for their ergonomics - they're also made by Sony." The first is acceptable completely, the second is complete bullstein.

Carl it looks like a G9 - don't you have one - you must be able to see the resemblance. If you say it looks like a Sony milc you might as well say it looks like all cameras, because there really aren't any similarities beyond a hot shoe and strap lugs.

The Nikon has a longer body, less space proportionally on the left side of the mount, a dial on the left instead of the right, softer corners, and a grip that ascends above the body in height whereas the sony grip is slightly below the top-plate in height. In design terms they look about as dissimilar as cameras get.

Sold my last piece of Sony Equipment today i am ready to push the Order Button.Will be a nice addition to my D500.Since a lot of people already know that the camera is crap the waiting list should not be that long 😀

Looks like Nikon is really good when it comes to marketing. Their mirrorless teasers campaign was hands-down successful and generated massive excitement and noise (and suprisingly A LOT of sony haters). Nikon now has to release a very good camera as the expectations are sky-high. Im doubtful Nikon can get it right on their first try. We'll see on Aug 23. Its definitely gonna be a day of reckoning.

In light of Nikon's 1-series-esque ergonomics and pricing blunders on this not-even-released-yet camera, do you think Canon will carry their DSLR ergonomics over to their FF MILC? And if so, will there be a really good full-function Nikon F-mount adapter made for it by Metabones or someone else?

No. Watch the latest video again. At 0:31 it's clear there are no buttons to the left of the flip-out screen. Vs a D500 that's 6 buttons missing. 8 if Play and Delete are also not on that side (and it appears that is the case), assuming this camera ALSO has ALL the other controls of the D500.

Even a D90, seriously, has better ergonomics. For $3,000 or $4,000 this camera is a joke. Semi-pros like myself, serious amateurs, and pros will dismiss this thing on first glance as it is clearly not an efficient high-performance tool simply by lack of controls. Yes, it's dead before it's even born.

I'm not ridiculing you, just your opinion that since the ergonomics on small N1 camera bodies wasn't as good, their larger mirrorless camera won't have good DSLR-quality ergonomics.

Here is a mockup of the back based on a leaked image. The majority of the controls are there; the misisng ones may be integrated in anotehr way. I like the controls on the right side of the screen, its easier to use one handed and I don't need to move my left hand from where it supports the lens. Mirrorless has different priorities as far as physical controls are concerned; for example, since you can see exposure in the viewfinder, you don't need to chimp with the playback button nearly as frequently. it can therefore be deprioritized in relation to more frequently needed controls.

I'm not stereotyping Nikon based on their 1-series. My statements are based on what is based in their latest video. Fact-based.

And as you state, the "mirrorless expectation" is substantially lower than DSLR expectations. As if mirrorless is the redheaded stepchild to DSLRs. And that certainly has been the case! But i have a $3,000 redheaded stepchild and i can't stand it. I'm interested in a true DSLR-equivalent MILC regarding ergonomics, and this is definitely not it.

But in light of Nikon's grave 1-series mistakes it very disheartening to see them repeat them here, clearly adopting the redheaded stepchild mentality. They're totally obviously going for Sony MILC-shooters. The redheaded stepchildren of photography. Oh! Lol, jk. :D

I didn't say the expectations were lower, just different. My example was that since you can see exposure in the viewfinder you don't need to access the playback button as frequently so it doesn't need to have as high a priority location as it would on a DSLR where you need it to check exposure. Nikon's camera is larger than the A7 and A9 so its obvious they are going for better ergos than Sony.

Lots of buttons ALWAYS matters. Look at all the comments.Nearly all the complaints are that it's still too big. That simply is not a complaint serious photographers make, certainly not of a FF camera that's likely smaller than a D7500. Anyone saying the D850 is too big and heavy would be laughed out of the room, and this camera is smaller and lighter. Yes, I'm holding this camera's ergonomics to the same standard as the D850 because that's the only caliber I'm interested in. Not interested in a slight upgrade to the 7RM2. I'm interested in a "mirrorless D850."

Yup, i fear you're right. Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if, ironically, Sony beats Nikon to the punch on that one, if it ever happens.

My take on this is that since mirrorless AF truly won't pose any kind of threat at all to pro DSLRs for at least 3-5 years that Nikon and Sony KNOW that they're not going to attract pros or genuinely serious photographers until that time. Plus, not nearly enough native mirrorless lenses yet for pros to adopt the format either. So, they're specifically targeting the "enthusiast compact" tech-geek-with-money-to-burn segment that simply has to have the hottest gadget. To them small and light, and good online reviews is all that matters. They just shoot it as if it was a $4,000ish point-and-shoot not knowing it sucks because DPR gave it a good review. They're the guinea pigs paying for the R&D to improve MILC AF to DSLR standards.

Case in point my 7RM2: aside from superb IQ and ISO-invariance, it is an awful pain to shoot with and it can't AF to save its life unless there is an abundance of light, and even then your AF point had better have the kind of contrast it wants to see or it'll still be hunting. No real photographer is going to endure such torture in their primary system. But the 7RM2 sold for over $3,000 and was sold-out everywhere for a long time. Ridiculous.

Well, little piggies, buy tons of these up so some company can come up with DSLR-caliber MILC AF so that pro ergonomics can finally make their way into a MILC body! Thanks! :D

"I guess you missed the whole point i was trying to make about people clamoring over such a crappy camera even though it cost over $3,000."

At the time, this and the A7ii were the only FF camera on the market with IBIS. To some photographers, this is worth the money. I agree, they were hard to use (I had them both). Image quality of the A7rii is still unbeaten. A7riii is much easier to handle, and gives the same great image quality.

Let's not forget that the first A7 came on the market in early 2014. So in about 4 years we got nine (!) full frame camera models from Sony to choose from and a plethora of lenses. With such a rapid development, it is very easy to say how "crappy" the old models are, forgetting that many still use the original A7 and A7s and A7r cameras satisfying their needs at a great price point.

Will there ever be the pro MILC ergonomics you want? Even in 5 years? Who knows.... I bet Nikon did some marketing research when they decided to make their first MILC camera look and feel pretty much like the Sony ones. From the comparison pictures, size etc. appears almost the same.

That's my point, BBQ. Because Sony set such a low bar and defined the MILC genre thusly, many MILC photographers likely don't have DSLR experience, or found DSLRs too complicated. As you state, many are happy with their original version a7. Nice image quality, but aside from that, what a truly terrible camera. Again, very low standards. I'm a very demanding semi-pro. When i pay $3,000+ for a body, i know what else is out there and i know what is fair to expect. This camera at $4,000ish is WAY overpriced for what it fails to deliver.

But, Nikon will probably sell plenty of these because they will appeal to the same people Sony FF MILCs do; money-burning posers. But at least with this system you'll get F-mount lens accessibility and that is a giant advantage over Sony and inherently makes this system more valuable than Sony's.

I can only speak for myself. The A7 already gave me great pictures and each generation of Sony FF cams only got better, IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. With my A7riii I finally think I AM HERE. NO MORE NEED FOR FUTURE UPGRADES. to me this is it.

If you think it is overpriced, and search for something cheaper, yet at the same time with the big size and ergonomics of the old DSLRs, you may be in for a big disappointment.

To call photographers who have different preferences and priorities than yourself "money burning posers" is silly, but you know that yourself.

How well that F- to Z-mount adapter really works remains to be seen. Hopefully better than the already available F- to Sony E-mount ones. It is interesting, that you put all your hope in that adapter piece now.... hope for you that Nikon delivers, but I would not be that optimistic.

I'm already not going to own a Z6 or Z7 due to inadequate ergonomics. I may pick one up used on Craigslist a year after it's released for much less expensive than new and dump my 7RM2,just for the upgrade in ergonomics. I'm only going to pre-order a Z, probably the "Z8" or "Z9" when it has true D750ish or D850ish ergonomics.

Sony's image quality has been excellent for a long time, that's never in question. I'm saying that those who are satisfied with any Sony Alpha simply do not not find need to change a lot of settings quickly regularly. As I've said many times, they simply are not demanding. I am. To me ergonomics are everything (because IQ and exceptional AF (in DSLRs) are already givens), and this Nikon's ergonomics aren't good enough.

On mark iii bodies you can make your own custom menu and can arrange and populate it any way you want. Plus you have three instead two Memory settings. Plus all buttons are now programmable for still / video / playback separately. For someone who needs to change settings frequently, how could that be any better?

As for ergonomics/size - I guess all you can do is hope that someone will make big cameras again. Canon perhaps? Good luck!

It is crystal clear - all I am saying is you may have to wait a long time, maybe forever. I am pretty sure Sony/Nikon/Canon do some marketing research to figure out what will sell and what will not, no matter how much a handful of photographers "scream from the beginning".

Got a question for you guys currently discussing/arguing about ergonomics.

Not considering the amount of buttons available, what do you guys think of the ergonomics on the the entry level DSLRs (SL2 for example). And what do you think about the mid-level DSLRs? Are they ergonomically far worse than that of the 5DIII/D750, D850, 6D, 1DXII, D5 etc??

I mean ergonomics is all about fitting to human use. You all haven't even touched the camera, yet there seems to be an insistence that it sucks ergonomically.

To me there are 4 factors that go into body ergonomics. Grip size + weight, hand position, ease of use relating to controls.

The lighter the body the smaller the grip can be, until it gets to a point that the position/form my hand takes becomes uncomfortable for held for extended periods.

I have an A7III. And ergonomically it isn't as comfortable as when I was on canon. The A7 series are small and lighter, but they are denser. The grip is closer to the controls than for example with the Z cameras, with means that the manner in which I have to move my hand to use the controls is "tedious". Not to mention your pinky hangs off the bottom.

Seems like nikon has tried to address these observations. The body is slightly wider allowing for bigger buttons and probably a more comfortable operation of them. The grip is taller and deeper for a more comfortable form, and your pink has support. The camera is far lighter than the D850 which should compensate for the smaller form.

If programmed right (if possible) those function keys might compensate for some of the buttons removed from the left.

However, by the removal of those buttons they should have allowed for a flip screen.

In terms of AF, unless you are doing spots, I doubt it is limiting to most. Lack of 2 slots :-(

I have a feeling the Z actually is a tweaked rebranded Sony and that it's an experiment to see if Nikon's base will accept Sony product. If so, the merger/acquisition of Nikon and Sony will be announced.

Haha.. how much different do you actually expect them to be? Most DSLRs look fairly similar to me. At least in the way you are implying. Cause botton layout is not the same. Mount is not the same. Full weather sealed, apparently potentially better evf optics (at least z6 vs A7III) Nikon has the dial on the other size and a top panel which Sony doesn’t have. Did you want them to put glitters on the thing or something?

Looks to me like they just made a smaller Nikon grip, added a squares body (to maximize internal space), a hump for the evf, and then botton layout. And twin dails, bit not an exposure comp (not that I have seen),

@lawny13-I have a D3100 and love it... for what it is and what I use it for. It's feather-light and TINY. As I typically shoot in center point AF-S, my D3100 is a great casual "fun camera." It's basically my snapshooter. And my D5300 also is great and I'll take it out instead of my D3100 if I'm anticipating need of HDR , exposure bracketing or shooting selfies, and also because that candy red is so gorgeous to look at! But I haven't used either in 2ish years. Both have great IQ and are tiny and light (much like a Sony) but I guess in the last couple of years I haven't had the patience for losing shots due to ergonomics or lack of features even when just out shooting for fun, and both the D3100 and D5300 are lacking in ergonomics vs. high-end Nikons (much like a Sony). A D7200 isn't much bigger or heavier than a D5300 and I just don't care about that small size/weight difference anymore. I would never take one of them out on an action, demanding, or important shoot (much like a Sony).

I'm also kinda interested if Nikon's vaunted 3D AF tracking and RGB color metering translate into the mirrorless arena. Instead of a dedicated AF/metering module, they now have an all-in-one CMOS imaging sensor. This will be, IMO, a make or break capability.

This is a very good question. DPR considers Nikon's 3D tracking to be the gold standard, better even than the A9. (excluding eye AF - which is also a form of tracking).

I assume the better performance of 3D tracking over Sony's Lock-On AF is related to the multicam 20K rather than the processing or software - namely larger focus points as well as cross type points - which don't exist on on-sensor systems.

Since the A9 has a stacked sensor and the fastest OSPDAF of any mirrorless I would expect the advantage of 3D tracking to be gone.

Why would you assume that the A9's OSPDAF tracking would bean 3D tracking? You mention a reason why it might not yourself. Larger pixels from the nikon's tracking system certainly gives it an advantage. You should also not forget that nikons and canons focus wide open. So stopped down focus on the A9 automatically depletes the focus points of light.

"Why would you assume that the A9's OSPDAF tracking would bean 3D tracking?"

No, 3D tracking beats the OSPDAF of Sony's 'Lock-on tracking' according to DPR. I'm saying that the A9 will beat Nikon's mirrorless AF because their advantage of 3D tracking will be gone and the A9 sensor has it's own advantages - essentially a faster scanning and readout speed.

Nikon could have easily slammed a base-clearing home run with this camera. But they've already struck out! I'm here to scold Nikon for repeating the 1-series blunders. Poor ergonomics and overpricing doomed Nikon 1. This new Nikon MILC has poor ergonomics and is overpriced. The poor ergonomics have got to indicate that Nikon knows the AF is not up to the task of rivaling pro DSLRs, and therefore not targeted at pros. So why price it like a D850? Or higher!? And history repeats.

What Nikon-shooting pro or serious amateur is going to give up DSLR ergonomics and AF so they can say they have a Nikon MILC that's a bit smaller and a few ounces lighter? None.

Lots of wishful thinking in there, and you sound stressed, panicky about something. Personally I think Nikon will steamroll with this new camera and I think Sony will be the first one to get flattened.

Yep, I'm way upset about this! I can't stand shooting my 7RM2 but i need the magnifying EVF for the adapted manual-focus lenses i put on it. I was just dying for this camera to replace it. But it's ergonomics are very Sony-like, not D850-like. So it's of no use to me, and I'm stuck with my dreaded 7RM2 for at least another generation, or until Sony beats Nikon to putting D850-like ergonomics on a FF MILC.

Even more upset because the stupid teasers got my hopes up, only to crush them. Lol, venting. I really am flat-out mad at Nikon though.

No, that's not it. I must have 15 or so Nikon DSLRs already. I need a FF MILC for my manual-focus lenses. That's the only thing i use my 7RM2 for. But its ergonomics are horrible compared to pro Nikon DSLRs. Seriously, even a D90 has better ergonomics, SERIOUSLY!

"Poor ergonomics and overpricing doomed Nikon 1. This new Nikon MILC has poor ergonomics and is overpriced. The poor ergonomics have got to indicate that Nikon knows the AF is not up to the task of rivaling pro DSLRs, and therefore not targeted at pros. So why price it like a D850? Or higher!? And history repeats."

Well - you could be right.

"Personally I think Nikon will steamroll with this new camera and I think Sony will be the first one to get flattened."

Well - you could be right too.

To me, fullframe mirrorless does seem to contradict the hole idea with mirrorless cameras. They will sell well for a while, but the quality of the smaller sensors and very high prices of fullframe will limit the success.

I believe the future of mirrorless is small sensors and implementation of functionality similar to those seen on smartphones.

All due respect, LFPCPH, but i do believe MILC is the future of photography. But at present even the a9's touted "best" mirrorless AF is no threat at all to DSLRs shot by seasoned action photographers. Once that AF gap closes, it's lights-out for DSLRs. That leap could happen within 5 years. The ergonomics are already there. D5, D850, D500, D7500, but not even Nikon will put those ergonomics on a MILC. Yet.

Watch the latest teaser again. When they're reviewing photos on the LCD, there are no buttons to the left of the screen. That's as many as 6 lost buttons compared to a D500, assuming that this new camera will have ALL the other controls that a D500 has. That is prohibitively too many lost buttons and amounts to a borderline unusable camera for me, just like my 7RM2 is.

How can you judge the ergonomics before the camera has even been released? Maybe you are just judging on size - so if by poor ergonomics you mean it is small, not so well suited to your hands maybe, that for me is good ergonomics as my hands will match it nicely, and they will likely have a vertical grip available for those preferring a larger grip.

No, a lot can be told by the latest teaser. There are no buttons to the left of the flip-out screen. That's a lot of missing important buttons. Plus, it's a substantial departure from the pretty standard high-end Nikon layout. It's like a fusion of a D5300's and a D850's ergonomics. Not even as good as a D7200's ergonomics. But at about 4x the price...

I'll just stick with my crappy 7RM2 until Nikon pulls their head out of their derriere and gives their FX MILC true DSLR ergonomics. That is, if this gigantic blunder doesn't spell the unnecessary end of this format a la 1-series. It just blows me away how Nikon keeps on doing totally stupid things like this when they've been sitting on the perfect answer for so long.

The iphone had lots of missing buttons, and was so doomed to ergonomic failure... Really I would not trust anyone criticising the ergonomics of this body or any other, until they have had hands on experience using it for a shoot or 2 at least, and so I think I will await Joe Mcnally's verdict here.

Nah, not interested in SLT. Plus, the a99 also has no buttons to the left of the screen, so it suffers from the same ergonomics complaint i have about this Nikon. Thank you for the suggestion but it's not quite what I'm looking for.

Interesting ad because we see more of the camera. That back LCD screen looks amazing, and it doesn't appear that the adapter adds that much thickness to the system, as we see the 180-400 lens attached with it.

BTW, that 180-400 lens is an optical masterpiece and a significant achievement for Nikon. This shows Nikon's engineering talent and expertise.

You are right about the adapter.That may be the key to all existing Nikon owners with plenty of Nikon glass & with the upcoming 500 mm 5.6 f it would be a win win for the existing Nikon action shooters(Sports & Wild life) .New buyers may see the camera in a different light .As a bird shooter i plan to buy the 500 mm & then see how the MILC shapes up & then go for it after an year or so.

"it doesn't appear that the adapter adds that much thickness to the system, as we see the 180-400 lens attached with it."

What does that even mean? We know exactly how much thickness the adapter should add: the distance between the Z-mount flange distance (supposedly 15mm from the focal plane) and the F-mount flange distance (46.5mm from the focal plane). So assuming the Z-mount flange distance is really 15mm, than the thickness of the adapter should be 31.5mm.

The real question is if the adapter has a pellicle mirror and dedicated PDAF module inside it, as Nikon's patent indicates.

@Thoughts...Surely you meant to say that the 180-400 is an excellent homage to the Canon 200-400 which has been available for years (and is still maybe a bit better - particularly with the built in converters - than the Nikkor....)😊

Unless the SIZE of these, is AT LEAST the size of consumer grade d-SLR, count me out. I guess I'm odd...I LIKE larger cameras. These mirrorless things just look to "breakable" to me, especially when you hang a 500mm lens, or a 150-600 lens etc on them. I prefer the larger camera size.Everyone is different I guess.

D7200 with 16-80mm F2.8-4E or 18-200mm VR is what I'll take hiking if I'm not trail-running. Very easily carried in a backpack or even in your hand ready to shoot. If trail-running, then AW130 in my pocket.

Sony RX100 series is also a really small alternative but i question their durability.

Actually, for hiking maybe the D7500 as It’s lighter due to less magnesium and more plastic. But! Beware the horrible slippery plastic-rubber grip on the D7500. Big downgrade from the D7200's rubber. Make sure you have a strap on your D7500 when hiking.

Dude, i gotta tell you! It floored me! Tack sharp, awesome color and very nice bokeh. Totally pro optics. Build quality is very nice but for true working pros it may fall a little short on durability. If you genuinely don't need 24-70mm F2.8 tank-like build, it is a truly awesome lens! So is the 24-120mm F4 VR FX lens! I like the 24-120mm even better.

Fujii is pretty sweet too. Exceptional glass even on their kit lenses.

Frankly, i like the 24-120mm F4G ED VR BETTER than the 24-70mm F2.8. The 24-70mm is the only 1 of the "Holy Trinity" that i don't have because of its tendency to create sort of halo bokeh similar to mirror lens donuts when light comes through trees, etc. The 24-120mm just makes better images. It's truly a hidden gem. Because they're kitted with a lot of bodies, they occasionally wind up on Craigslist like-new for $500ish. That's an insult but it's what i bought mine for. It's one of my favorite lenses!

In the future, the next generation of photographers will look back at DSLR's and say, "Wow, were cameras really that big, thick and heavy?" It's like when we look back at how big, thick, and heavy old laptops were. Yes, I remember the days when I carried around a big, heavy Windows laptop. And I'll tell these new kids, "Yeah, back then some people thought it was cool to use big, heavy, chunky cameras. It made some people feel more masculine, hahaha."

A camera's size does affect it's functionality. There's a reason the D5 and 1DX are as big as they are. Big buttons everywhere. Important. And it's partly why Sonys are criticized for horrible ergonomics.

Oh, and i hope Fuji's 16-80mm is as good as Nikon's, but i gotta tell you, Nikon poured the secret sauce on that one. Its images look like they were shot with really good fixed focal length lenses. Even more so the 24-120mm. But it's a treat i hope you get to enjoy with Fuji, Nikon, or whoever.

@Royal Majesty - I think the days of having big cameras with "big buttons everywhere" are steadily coming to a close. Those cameras will still exist, but as a niche product, much like shoulder-mounted video cameras. Yes, shoulder-mounted video cameras still exist, but when was the last time you saw a consumer or non-professional using one?

I tried handling Sony's but didn't like them at all, like they weren't designed by photographers. Fuji manage small and usable the best I think. I always hated the untraditional dials of Nikon/Canon but I was brought up on a manual-shift Pentax so maybe that explains it?

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