1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

i think it is a small problem for universalism: the concept of eternity exists in the mind of every humanmaybe if the concept doesn't exist in the literal vocabulary people use a word which exists and transform the meaning

I think not only UR has that problem. ET even more.UR defines 'age' as 'age'.ET defines 'age' as 'everlasting' because a concept without a proper word exists.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 09:12:24 AM by WhiteWings »

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

jaareshiah

Yes, there is a Greek word for eternity - aionion. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible gives it meaning as "perpetual"(G166). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says of aionion, "without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be" in reference to Romans 16:26, whereby the apostle Paul speaks of the "everlasting God" as well "without end, never to cease, everlasting"(pg 20), pointing to 2 Corinthians 4:18, in which Paul says that "the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting". This Greek word is used at such places as Matthew 19:16, 29; 25:46, Mark 10:17; 10:30; Luke 10:25; 18:18; 2 Pet 1:11; Jude 1:21.

The Greek word aion (G165), meaning "age", may also refer to a period of time in man's history, whether having or not having datable bounds. Greek lexicographers show the word to mean "space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age," and also "lifetime, life," or "age, generation." Since an epoch, or age, can begin and end or it can go on forever, it follows that ai·onī could refer to a period of time that is endless, though having a beginning.

Thus, as recorded at Mark 3:29, Jesus said that the blasphemer against the holy spirit was guilty of "everlasting [agelong, perpetual, eternal] sin," or a sin never to be canceled out at any future time. A similar expression was used with regard to the fruitless fig tree, where "forever" in the Greek is literally "to [for] the age." (Matt 21:19) At Jesus' birth the angelic promise was that "he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever [literally, into the ages]."(Luke 1:33)

However, ai·onī can also refer more particularly to the consistent state of things or the current state of affairs or features that distinguish a certain period of time, epoch, or age rather than to the matter of time itself. As R. C. Trench states in Synonyms of the New Testament (London, 1961, p. 203): "Thus signifying time, it comes presently to signify all which exists in the world under conditions of time; . . . and then, more ethically, the course and current of this world's affairs" and has therefore been rendered as "system of things" (or "of the order of things") at Matthew 24:3 in the New World Translation.

Ervan - I know you said the concept of eternity exists in the mind of every human.IMO - We may know the word but frankly only being able to see the temporary and see death all around,I personally can't understand the full meaning of eternity any more than I can understand the meaning of infinite.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Thus, as recorded at Mark 3:29, Jesus said that the blasphemer against the holy spirit was guilty of "everlasting [agelong, perpetual, eternal] sin," or a sin never to be canceled out at any future time. A similar expression was used with regard to the fruitless fig tree, where "forever" in the Greek is literally "to [for] the age." (Matt 21:19) At Jesus' birth the angelic promise was that "he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever [literally, into the ages]."(Luke 1:33)

I have heard other explanations for this section. I think further discussion by those more educated in than Greek than myself should enter here.

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jaareshiah

At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

Ervan - I know you said the concept of eternity exists in the mind of every human.IMO - We may know the word but frankly only being able to see the temporary and see death all around,I personally can't understand the full meaning of eternity any more than I can understand the meaning of infinite.

It is infinitely more laborious to understand eternity.Since we have all of eternity to divine the infinite.That which ends has never begun.

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jaareshiah

Not long after having a lengthy discussion with both the Pharisees and Jews, Jesus met up with a "man blind from birth".(John 9:1) After healing him, giving him sight (John 9:6, 7), the Pharisees thrice questioned the "man blind from birth", but never accepting his answer, though they saw the miracle for themselves.(John 9:15, 24, 26) They obstinately refused to accept the fact of the miraculous giving of sight by means of holy spirit through the hand of Jesus. They then threw the man out ! (John 9:34)

Jesus later meets up with the Pharisees who had saw and questioned the blind man, with these telling Jesus: "We are not blind also, are we?" (John 9:40) Jesus now says to them: "If you were blind (physically as the man born blind), you would have no sin. But now you say, 'We see.' Your sin remains."(John 9:41) Jesus says that these are not forgiven of their sins, for by their unreasonable and arrogant attitude, unwilling to allow the evidence that they saw ("we see") to show that Jesus, by means of holy spirit, healed the "man blind from birth", an act that only our Creator, Jehovah God can perform. These will never be forgiven, "guilty of everlasting sin".(Mark 3:29)

At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

So, I assume you do not believe in UR...but some form of annihilation?

At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

(Matt. 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, {age} neither in the world {age} to come.

Notice: it says neither in this age, or the age to come. Jesus was speaking of the age he lived in and the age we live in now, not the next age when Christ returns and everyone will be resurrected. The reason he said not in this age or the age to come is, all of these blasphemers he speaks of will remain dead until Christ returns and resurrects them, then they will be forgiven.

Quote from: jaareshiah

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

No, he said only in the age that thay were living in and the age we are living in. When Christ returns and everyone is resurrected and is taught of God, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and God will eventually be all in all.

One thing was, Jesus had not been crucified at that time and that is why he told them they would die in their sins because there was no sacrifice for sins till after Jesus was crucified.

CHB

« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 08:25:04 PM by CHB »

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jaareshiah

At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

So, I assume you do not believe in UR...but some form of annihilation?

The Bible does not teach universal salvation, for that would mean even Satan and his demons would have opportunity to continue living. Yet their judgment has long been reserved.(Gen 3:15; Matt 25:41; Rev 20:10) God's love is conditional, having limitations, for those before the global flood were given warning through Noah that God was to bring that "generation" to ruin because of its wickedness and violence (Gen 6:7, 13), with the wicked angelic "sons of God" and their offspring, the Nephilim, greatly adding to the violent behavior that existed then.(Gen 6:4)

The apostle Peter wrote: "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tarīta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people; and by reducing the cities Sodīom and Go·morīrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come."(2 Pet 2:4-6)

Jesus also says: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14) As only eight persons survived the global flood, likewise only a "few" will survive the "conclusion of the system of things".(Matt 13:39) Only a "few" are willing to measure up to Jehovah God's holy requirements.

Jesus, in answering the question "are those being saved few", responds: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)

Many will feel that they are pleasing to Jesus, saying: "We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways." (Luke 13:26), but in the illustration, Jesus says, as the "householder": "But he will speak and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness! ' There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside."(Luke 13:27, 28)

Many, though professing to be Christian, are told by Jesus to "Get away from me", because these have disregarded Jesus words, making them "invalid", with Jesus saying: "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'"(Matt 15:9)

At Revelation 19, there is an invitation "to all the birds that fly in midheaven: "Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great."(Rev 19:17, 18) This "feast" of the "fleshy parts" by "birds that fly in midheaven" is the result of all the deaths of those who have died during the "war of the great day of God the Almighty" called Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16)

Believe or not there is much I would agree with you on. I suppose where we diverge from common thought is the purpose of judgment. You see it as punitive and final in nature. I see it as corrective and consistent with Gods will ( all men be saved ) and his very nature which is agapao.

One must not look as the ultimate reconciliation of all men with whatever God plans for the devil and his angels. They are 2 different things.The Bible is clear that hell was created for the devil and his angels and that Jesus is the saviour of mankind.God's angels are curious about human salvation and it's OK to be curious about the fate of the angels that rebelled, but how God deals with the fallen angels is HIS business. Just like how God blesses or not another person and the relationship he has with that person is none of your business. God works and deals with all in an individual relationship which is the only true relationship.

"God, who would have ALL men to be saved" doesn't include anything about the devil or his angels.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Aionion does not mean eternal. Your concordances are flat out wrong. They have bought into the 1000+ year hoax of Hell as a place where the person who does not believe in Christ is burned alive forever and ever.

There is a great explanation of aion, aionios, aionion at the Evangelical Univeralist forum.

Your argument is based on the false premise that we are inconsistent with our definition of aionios. Some may be, of course, but not all are. For instance, I don't ever translate it "eternal." But if you really want an essay on it, first, like all words, it has a lexical range. It can pertain to a period of time ("lasting for an age" or "characteristic of an age" or "befitting an age"). That's the primary definition we use in Scripture. Zoen aionion is "life befitting the Age to Come[/i] and kolasin aionion is "correction befitting the Age to Come" and pyros aioniou is "fire befitting the Age to Come." None of those, of course, means "eternal" in itself, not because such a thing cannot be eternal, but precisely because no length of time is in view at all. Of particular interest is Jude's reference to Sodom; the fire that burned it up is definitely not still burning!

Now, on the other hand, aionios can refer to things that are more or less permanent. It's used numerous times in the Septuagint of the OT to describe things like "mountains" and "hills" that aren't going anywhere for a while. Obviously, in these circumstances it's not a proper "eternity" in view, either, but in this case, it does pertain to length of time, whereas in the previous circumstance, it doesn't. Once again, the word does not actually preclude complete permanence/eternality; it simply doesn't require it.

Aionios can, in some literature, refer to the idea of being "properly" eternal. In classical Greek it held this meaning. Plato used it to describe a timeless reality, without future or past, but among Koine speakers, that understanding is exceedingly rare, and for first-century Semitic Koine speakers, that idea would have bordered on nonsense unless applied directly to God Himself (on the other hand, for a classically trained, Gentile Church Father some centuries later, such as Jerome or Augustine, that idea would have appeared quite sensible).

To boil it all down, there is a qualitative sense of aionios that we find in most of its usages in the New Testament. Clearly zoen aionion is not about the length of life, but about the kind or quality of it--the kind of life that can only come from God, that characterizes the Age to Come, etc. On the other hand, kolasin or olethron aionion ought to be taken the same way: not about the length of time that the correction or destruction will last, but the sort of thing it is. It's the kind of correction or destruction that can only come from God, that will mark out the Age to Come. It is the Correction of the Age.

Now, earlier you cited John 6:47, asking if it meant "everlasting life" or "life of God" or what. Let me suggest N. T. Wright's rendering, noting also that he is not only a passive non-Universalist but has actually written against UR:

"I'm telling you the solemn truth," Jesus went on. "Anyone who believes in me has the life of God's coming age."

Why did he render it like that? Because, obviously, the point isn't how long the life lasts; it's the kind of life it is. There are other words to suggest that it lasts forever, such as "immortal"--words never applied to punishment in the New Testament (although, curiously, applied to punishment by Jews that believed in eternal torment outside of the New Testament). Scholarship is only beginning to shake centuries of tradition here. There's a reason why Clement of Alexandria, a Koine Greek-speaking Christian of the second century, did not hear "eternal" in aionios while Jerome, a classically-educated Christian of the fourth century, did.

We ought to be grateful that none of the words that always properly means "lasting forever" is ever applied to eschatological punishment; if it were, we would have a clear-cut contradiction between the Old Testament Prophets who say in no uncertain terms that God does not punish forever and other (hypothetical) passages that say He does. As it is, we don't have such a contradiction because none of the passages regarding eschatological punishment are required to be understood in terms of it actually persisting forever.

snitzelhoff

Posts: 205 Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:22 am

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jaareshiah

At Matthew 12, Jesus says: "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."(Matt 12:31, 32) Thus, as recorded by Mark, that "whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin."(Mark 3:29)

(Matt. 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, {age} neither in the world {age} to come.

Notice: it says neither in this age, or the age to come. Jesus was speaking of the age he lived in and the age we live in now, not the next age when Christ returns and everyone will be resurrected. The reason he said not in this age or the age to come is, all of these blasphemers he speaks of will remain dead until Christ returns and resurrects them, then they will be forgiven.

Quote from: jaareshiah

Because the Jewish religious leaders saw the outworking of God's holy spirit by the miracles that Jesus performed, and yet denied this, Jesus said that these had ' blasphemed against the holy spirit ', resulting in their never being forgiven. At John 8, because of their being obstinate, unyielding, though massive evidence is before them that he is the promised Messiah, Jesus tells the Pharisees: "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins."(John 8:23, 24)

Many of the Jewish religious leaders saw firsthand many of the miracles that Jesus carried out by means of the holy spirit (Mark 2:1-12), but stubbornly refused to accept this as convincing evidence of his being the Christ. As a result, Jesus said that their sins would never be forgiven, so that when they died, these would have no hope a resurrection from the dead, or they would remain dead forever, being cast into symbolic Gehenna or everlasting destruction.(Matt 23:15, 33)

No, he said only in the age that thay were living in and the age we are living in. When Christ returns and everyone is resurrected and is taught of God, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess and God will eventually be all in all.

One thing was, Jesus had not been crucified at that time and that is why he told them they would die in their sins because there was no sacrifice for sins till after Jesus was crucified.

CHB

The Greek word aion means "age" but also has further connotations, for as R. C. Trench states in Synonyms of the New Testament (London, 1961, p. 203): "Thus signifying time, it comes presently to signify all which exists in the world under conditions of time; . . . and then, more ethically, the course and current of this world's affairs."

Hence the Greek word aion has a broader meaning than just "age", but can refer more particularly to the consistent state of things or the current state of affairs or features that distinguish a certain period of time, epoch, or age rather than to the matter of time itself, and can therefore be rendered as "system of things", involving an epoch of time.

Hence, at Matthew 12:31, 32, Jesus contrasts those who are "forgiven", such as 'speaking a word against the son of man" with those who "speaks against the holy spirit" and are not forgiven, "no, not in this system of things ("system of things", Greek aion), nor in that to come." Their "sin remains".(John 9:41)

Once dead, those who sin against the holy spirit, never receive a resurrection, for just as "the unforgiving slave" was thrown into prison until he could off his massive debt to the king (and in prison he could not, thus remaining there forever, Matt 18:34, with him owing the king [at today's silver value, 10/27/12], $238 million dollars), so Jesus stated: "In like manner my heavenly Father will also deal with you if you do not forgive each one his brother from your hearts."(Matt 18:35)

jaareshiah

Aionion does not mean eternal. Your concordances are flat out wrong. They have bought into the 1000+ year hoax of Hell as a place where the person who does not believe in Christ is burned alive forever and ever.

There is a great explanation of aion, aionios, aionion at the Evangelical Univeralist forum.

Your argument is based on the false premise that we are inconsistent with our definition of aionios. Some may be, of course, but not all are. For instance, I don't ever translate it "eternal." But if you really want an essay on it, first, like all words, it has a lexical range. It can pertain to a period of time ("lasting for an age" or "characteristic of an age" or "befitting an age"). That's the primary definition we use in Scripture. Zoen aionion is "life befitting the Age to Come[/i] and kolasin aionion is "correction befitting the Age to Come" and pyros aioniou is "fire befitting the Age to Come." None of those, of course, means "eternal" in itself, not because such a thing cannot be eternal, but precisely because no length of time is in view at all. Of particular interest is Jude's reference to Sodom; the fire that burned it up is definitely not still burning!

Now, on the other hand, aionios can refer to things that are more or less permanent. It's used numerous times in the Septuagint of the OT to describe things like "mountains" and "hills" that aren't going anywhere for a while. Obviously, in these circumstances it's not a proper "eternity" in view, either, but in this case, it does pertain to length of time, whereas in the previous circumstance, it doesn't. Once again, the word does not actually preclude complete permanence/eternality; it simply doesn't require it.

Aionios can, in some literature, refer to the idea of being "properly" eternal. In classical Greek it held this meaning. Plato used it to describe a timeless reality, without future or past, but among Koine speakers, that understanding is exceedingly rare, and for first-century Semitic Koine speakers, that idea would have bordered on nonsense unless applied directly to God Himself (on the other hand, for a classically trained, Gentile Church Father some centuries later, such as Jerome or Augustine, that idea would have appeared quite sensible).

To boil it all down, there is a qualitative sense of aionios that we find in most of its usages in the New Testament. Clearly zoen aionion is not about the length of life, but about the kind or quality of it--the kind of life that can only come from God, that characterizes the Age to Come, etc. On the other hand, kolasin or olethron aionion ought to be taken the same way: not about the length of time that the correction or destruction will last, but the sort of thing it is. It's the kind of correction or destruction that can only come from God, that will mark out the Age to Come. It is the Correction of the Age.

Now, earlier you cited John 6:47, asking if it meant "everlasting life" or "life of God" or what. Let me suggest N. T. Wright's rendering, noting also that he is not only a passive non-Universalist but has actually written against UR:

"I'm telling you the solemn truth," Jesus went on. "Anyone who believes in me has the life of God's coming age."

Why did he render it like that? Because, obviously, the point isn't how long the life lasts; it's the kind of life it is. There are other words to suggest that it lasts forever, such as "immortal"--words never applied to punishment in the New Testament (although, curiously, applied to punishment by Jews that believed in eternal torment outside of the New Testament). Scholarship is only beginning to shake centuries of tradition here. There's a reason why Clement of Alexandria, a Koine Greek-speaking Christian of the second century, did not hear "eternal" in aionios while Jerome, a classically-educated Christian of the fourth century, did.

We ought to be grateful that none of the words that always properly means "lasting forever" is ever applied to eschatological punishment; if it were, we would have a clear-cut contradiction between the Old Testament Prophets who say in no uncertain terms that God does not punish forever and other (hypothetical) passages that say He does. As it is, we don't have such a contradiction because none of the passages regarding eschatological punishment are required to be understood in terms of it actually persisting forever.

snitzelhoff

Posts: 205 Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:22 am

What "our definition of aionios" is of no concern, but what the Bible has accurately established. At Matthew 25, Jesus said concerning those who did not assist his "brothers": "'Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.' And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off ("everlasting cutting-off ", Greek kolasin aionion), but the righteous ones into everlasting life."("everlasting life", Greek zoe aionion, Matt 25:45, 46)

Jesus contrasts those who failed in their assisting Jesus "brothers" ( those chosen by Jehovah God (2 Thess 2:13) who, along with him, make up the "kingdom of God"), with "the righteous ones" who are granted "everlasting life", those who assisted Jesus "brothers" at Matthew 25:40. Just as life contrasts with death, light with dark, so both receive something that is "everlasting", a permanent "cutting-off " from life for both "the Devil and his angels" and those who lifted no hand of help towards Jesus "brothers" and those who provided both material and spiritual help to Jesus "brothers", giving them "everlasting life".

The Greek interlinear, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, reads at Matthew 25:46: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off (koīla·sin) agelasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." Thus, those that God deems as unworthy of life everlasting, are then "cut-off " from life, receiving everlasting death.

The Emphatic Diaglott footnote for this verse reads: "That is, in the fire mentioned in verse 41. The Common Version (King James Bible), and in many modern ones, render kolasin aionioon, everlasting punishment, conveying the idea, as generally interpreted, of basimos, torment. Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the New Testament - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9; 1 John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1.To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2.To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write - "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds". 3.To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment; - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word....The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death."(italics theirs)

Looking at that link...a poster said eternal means without beginning or end. That isn't always true. It can mean without beginning or end...or merely mean endless. It does UR a great injustice when some posters stretch things to fit a belief system.

Right Shawn. The word "eternal" is only correvtly applied to God since He had no beginning and will have no end. In fact, God brought everything into existence so everything else has a beginning and everything else will have an end. That's why Jesus is the alpha and the Omega, the first and the last.Cause and effect. Everything is the effect, God was the first cause.

Logged

"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"