Given how the drafts are handled, it is hard to disentangle what is coaching, what is GMing.

I do not buy that this is a team that is chalk full of talent. I wouldn't want to be mandated to play a noob UDFA behind a inconsistent line, no healthy TEs/RBs.

Though the pick 6 fest was likely not predictable, the other roster composition/question mark issues were:

*right side of line
*RB health, and future of RB with Tate leaving
*Thin at TE for a team that uses 2 TE a lot, particularly with concerns on offensive line.
*a quarterback that had been in significant decline end of 2012, with no real plan of future replacement.
*hardly any NFL catches for any WRs not named Andre Johnson, and the route errors that come from that.
*no production from d linemen not named JJ Watt and Antonio Smith. Hoping to see something from Earl Mitchell that had never been seen from him.
*linebacker group was so thin, injured, inexperienced, that they tried out Brooks Reed at ILB during camp.
*safety. I don't want to even talk about it because it makes me stabby.
*corner. I don't crush JJo/KJ as much as some because they are asked to play man a ton without the pass rush, safeties that would help. But not their finest year, and all the other corners are a testament that you don't want Smith picking corners. (BTW, Frank Bush was a huge KJ supporter in that draft given his relationship with Saban).
*unproven kicker with no competition.
*little team speed in general, very little for special teams.

In an AFC that is wide open for those teams who didn't quit, Texans had a tough early schedule, had everything break bad, missed their high expectations and gave up the season by going all in on Keenum.

The case for Rick Smith is summed up by Jerome Solomon. The short version implies that McNair knows whose decisions were whose, and that Rick Smith wanted to (mortgage the cap) to get Peyton Manning, and coaches were um no.

I've talked to NFL folks outside the Texans who knew the relative cap situations of Denver, Titans, Texans, 49ers, and believe that there was no way that the Texans could have realistically been in running for teh Peyton. That Texans being floated as a name was all about negotiation leverage.

But theoretically, the reason why Rick Smith stays is because of deals he didn't do. Because he was so damn ineffectual and non-persuasive at his job, he wants credit for alternative histories that did not happen. And take zero responsibility for stupid stuff like having a team full of needs but getting old, broken, forever rabble rousing Ed Reed as the big off-season acquisition without bringing Wade Phillips as part of the decision making process. (An adult supervision GM woulda gone nah).

Oh goody! So we get to see what Rick Smith looks like when he gets the training wheels kicked off. Nothing. I mean nothing in his background makes you go, "Whew, it is a good thing Rick Smith is handling this draft."

The process is set up for failure. Who wants to work for a "front office" who complains to people in the media as their head coach is recovering from stroking out? Personally, I like the clean house model where you pick the GM, let the GM pick the coach. How is it that the Texans want an experienced HC, but don't impose that same criteria to Rick Smith?

Some of this can be blamed on the so called system . Running back by committee , small TEs , QB guru as a coach , and systems win games .

Part 2 is , who in this type of leadership position is a yes man ? It's your fault one way or the other .

They had Foster and drafted Tate in the 2nd round . Have they drafted one since ?

How is that RBBC? Unless you mean something other than Running Back By Committee when you say RBBC?

Normally, in a RBBC system, you've got 3-5 guys all getting approximately the same number of carries. You don't have 1 guy who is THE guy.

In our situation, Arian Foster has been THE Guy ever since his second year. This year, Arian was the Guy until he went down and then Tate became The Guy and Kubiak stuck with him even when it looked like Johnson should have been The Guy.

Prior to Foster, Kubiak expected Lundy to be the Guy but Dayne ended up being The Guy for a couple of years. They brought Green in to be the Guy but never got started. Slaton took over The Guy spot for a couple of years but then Arian came along.

Running Back by committee would be like the Pats. They shuttle Ridley and Blount in and out of the backfield every game. They can't seem to decide on one and change up the rotation every week. Vereen plays RB and spends a lot of time in the slot. Bolden comes in and gets touches every game. They have 4 RB's who touch the ball a lot.

The Texans are the opposite. Foster has been the workhorse and Tate spells him from time to time. They don't split time. When Foster went down, Tate became the workhorse. Johnson spells him from time to time.

How is that RBBC? Unless you mean something other than Running Back By Committee when you say RBBC?

Normally, in a RBBC system, you've got 3-5 guys all getting approximately the same number of carries. You don't have 1 guy who is THE guy.

In our situation, Arian Foster has been THE Guy ever since his second year. This year, Arian was the Guy until he went down and then Tate became The Guy and Kubiak stuck with him even when it looked like Johnson should have been The Guy.

Prior to Foster, Kubiak expected Lundy to be the Guy but Dayne ended up being The Guy for a couple of years. They brought Green in to be the Guy but never got started. Slaton took over The Guy spot for a couple of years but then Arian came along.

We haven't ever really been an RBBC type of team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Not sure where this mythology started even around the league as a whole. It is generally only found when a team doesn't have A guy - it's a reaction to circumstances rather than a design.

WRT to the Texans it is almost laughable paired with the allegations of over using Foster.

I guess my point was it was supposed to be RBBC . When they gave Foster the farm , it upset the pay scale . That's not how the Kubiak scheme was supposed to go . You pay a RB and a QB , you cut elsewhere .

I guess my point was it was supposed to be RBBC . When they gave Foster the farm , it upset the pay scale . That's not how the Kubiak scheme was supposed to go . You pay a RB and a QB , you cut elsewhere .

Ah.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that, either. But I see your point.

You're saying that in a Shanahan/Kubiak system, we're supposed to be finding cheap RBs later in the draft and letting them go when they get too costly. So we should have let Foster walk instead of giving him a lot of money to keep him.

Given how the drafts are handled, it is hard to disentangle what is coaching, what is GMing.

I do not buy that this is a team that is chalk full of talent. I wouldn't want to be mandated to play a noob UDFA behind a inconsistent line, no healthy TEs/RBs.

Though the pick 6 fest was likely not predictable, the other roster composition/question mark issues were:

*right side of line
*RB health, and future of RB with Tate leaving
*Thin at TE for a team that uses 2 TE a lot, particularly with concerns on offensive line.
*a quarterback that had been in significant decline end of 2012, with no real plan of future replacement.
*hardly any NFL catches for any WRs not named Andre Johnson, and the route errors that come from that.
*no production from d linemen not named JJ Watt and Antonio Smith. Hoping to see something from Earl Mitchell that had never been seen from him.
*linebacker group was so thin, injured, inexperienced, that they tried out Brooks Reed at ILB during camp.
*safety. I don't want to even talk about it because it makes me stabby.
*corner. I don't crush JJo/KJ as much as some because they are asked to play man a ton without the pass rush, safeties that would help. But not their finest year, and all the other corners are a testament that you don't want Smith picking corners. (BTW, Frank Bush was a huge KJ supporter in that draft given his relationship with Saban).
*unproven kicker with no competition.
*little team speed in general, very little for special teams.

In an AFC that is wide open for those teams who didn't quit, Texans had a tough early schedule, had everything break bad, missed their high expectations and gave up the season by going all in on Keenum.

The case for Rick Smith is summed up by Jerome Solomon. The short version implies that McNair knows whose decisions were whose, and that Rick Smith wanted to (mortgage the cap) to get Peyton Manning, and coaches were um no.

I've talked to NFL folks outside the Texans who knew the relative cap situations of Denver, Titans, Texans, 49ers, and believe that there was no way that the Texans could have realistically been in running for teh Peyton. That Texans being floated as a name was all about negotiation leverage.

But theoretically, the reason why Rick Smith stays is because of deals he didn't do. Because he was so damn ineffectual and non-persuasive at his job, he wants credit for alternative histories that did not happen. And take zero responsibility for stupid stuff like having a team full of needs but getting old, broken, forever rabble rousing Ed Reed as the big off-season acquisition without bringing Wade Phillips as part of the decision making process. (An adult supervision GM woulda gone nah).

Oh goody! So we get to see what Rick Smith looks like when he gets the training wheels kicked off. Nothing. I mean nothing in his background makes you go, "Whew, it is a good thing Rick Smith is handling this draft."

The process is set up for failure. Who wants to work for a "front office" who complains to people in the media as their head coach is recovering from stroking out? Personally, I like the clean house model where you pick the GM, let the GM pick the coach. How is it that the Texans want an experienced HC, but don't impose that same criteria to Rick Smith?

This about sums it up. I would add that when hired Smith was ass't GM who was least knowledgeable, least experienced GM in the league. Smith has only been trained in the Mike Shanahan way of doing business. McNair is ignoring the Commitment to Excellence, the part of bringing in the Best and Brightest. Smith is left over good old boy business plan. Smith does curry favor with NFLN and SI Peter King. Both are effusive in their praise of Smith and protect their source with a lot of media hype. Some of it were the talking points at McNair's last PC. Other teams in division have $30-40 mil in salary cap while Texans virtually have none. Until the Texans can become competitive in the salary cap arena the cellar will be home. Being salary cap competitive is not in the Rick Smith playbook.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that, either. But I see your point.

You're saying that in a Shanahan/Kubiak system, we're supposed to be finding cheap RBs later in the draft and letting them go when they get too costly. So we should have let Foster walk instead of giving him a lot of money to keep him.

Given how the drafts are handled, it is hard to disentangle what is coaching, what is GMing.

I do not buy that this is a team that is chalk full of talent. I wouldn't want to be mandated to play a noob UDFA behind a inconsistent line, no healthy TEs/RBs.

Though the pick 6 fest was likely not predictable, the other roster composition/question mark issues were:

*right side of line
*RB health, and future of RB with Tate leaving
*Thin at TE for a team that uses 2 TE a lot, particularly with concerns on offensive line.
*a quarterback that had been in significant decline end of 2012, with no real plan of future replacement.
*hardly any NFL catches for any WRs not named Andre Johnson, and the route errors that come from that.
*no production from d linemen not named JJ Watt and Antonio Smith. Hoping to see something from Earl Mitchell that had never been seen from him.
*linebacker group was so thin, injured, inexperienced, that they tried out Brooks Reed at ILB during camp.
*safety. I don't want to even talk about it because it makes me stabby.
*corner. I don't crush JJo/KJ as much as some because they are asked to play man a ton without the pass rush, safeties that would help. But not their finest year, and all the other corners are a testament that you don't want Smith picking corners. (BTW, Frank Bush was a huge KJ supporter in that draft given his relationship with Saban).
*unproven kicker with no competition.
*little team speed in general, very little for special teams.

In an AFC that is wide open for those teams who didn't quit, Texans had a tough early schedule, had everything break bad, missed their high expectations and gave up the season by going all in on Keenum.

The case for Rick Smith is summed up by Jerome Solomon. The short version implies that McNair knows whose decisions were whose, and that Rick Smith wanted to (mortgage the cap) to get Peyton Manning, and coaches were um no.

I've talked to NFL folks outside the Texans who knew the relative cap situations of Denver, Titans, Texans, 49ers, and believe that there was no way that the Texans could have realistically been in running for teh Peyton. That Texans being floated as a name was all about negotiation leverage.

But theoretically, the reason why Rick Smith stays is because of deals he didn't do. Because he was so damn ineffectual and non-persuasive at his job, he wants credit for alternative histories that did not happen. And take zero responsibility for stupid stuff like having a team full of needs but getting old, broken, forever rabble rousing Ed Reed as the big off-season acquisition without bringing Wade Phillips as part of the decision making process. (An adult supervision GM woulda gone nah).

Oh goody! So we get to see what Rick Smith looks like when he gets the training wheels kicked off. Nothing. I mean nothing in his background makes you go, "Whew, it is a good thing Rick Smith is handling this draft."

The process is set up for failure. Who wants to work for a "front office" who complains to people in the media as their head coach is recovering from stroking out? Personally, I like the clean house model where you pick the GM, let the GM pick the coach. How is it that the Texans want an experienced HC, but don't impose that same criteria to Rick Smith?

Your hatred of Rick Smith is a little intense and disturbing. You take his actions far too personally. You may want to consider not renewing your season tickets. I think going to Reliant might be a bit much for you. I'm serious.

And, just for the record: While I think most of this team's problems has been coaching, Rick Smith should also be held accountable for a chunk of this mess. He is in no way blameless.

I guess my point was it was supposed to be RBBC . When they gave Foster the farm , it upset the pay scale . That's not how the Kubiak scheme was supposed to go . You pay a RB and a QB , you cut elsewhere .

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck

Ah.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that, either. But I see your point.

You're saying that in a Shanahan/Kubiak system, we're supposed to be finding cheap RBs later in the draft and letting them go when they get too costly. So we should have let Foster walk instead of giving him a lot of money to keep him.

The Shanahan/Kubiak scheme is acquiring RBs cheaply in terms of draft picks, roll through them until getting a hit and then ride that back out including giving them a contract or valuing them very highly.

Terrell Davis - given a big contract way before necessary in his 2nd season of his rookie contract.
Portis - traded for a top 3 CB plus the 2nd round pick spent to get him.
Foster - gave him his market value.
Morris - again not sharing the load 335 att. next most 23 att. in his rookie year ending 2nd in yds to AP and 2nd in TDs to Foster - you can guarantee the Skins will pay him.

Running Back by committee would be like the Pats. They shuttle Ridley and Blount in and out of the backfield every game. They can't seem to decide on one and change up the rotation every week. Vereen plays RB and spends a lot of time in the slot. Bolden comes in and gets touches every game. They have 4 RB's who touch the ball a lot.

Close. They've got two guys they think can be THE guy, but they continue to disappoint. Neither is particularly good at any one thing, but they're fairly good at everything.

New Orleans has a RBBC. They've got their usual guy, the third down guy, the goal line guy, the change of pace guy, the pass pro guy, & the guy who's going to take a lick.

Arian is THE guy. Whatever the situation calls for, he's the best we've got & one of the best in the league. If he were healthy, Kubiak would have run him in the dirt, to try to protect Case. Ben Tate isn't that guy & never was. He was the dog-house, but I ain't got anyone better guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34

I guess my point was it was supposed to be RBBC . When they gave Foster the farm , it upset the pay scale . That's not how the Kubiak scheme was supposed to go . You pay a RB and a QB , you cut elsewhere .

I don't get that either. In Denver, they always had THE guy until they didn't. Clinton Portis was traded for Champ Bailey because they kept striking out finding their own. Mike Anderson was hurt all the time & they had nothing but fodder. Orlandis Gary priced himself out of a good career with Denver, because he wasn't as good as he thought he was. They're not going to pay a guy because he broke 1000 yards one year. (More than likely I've got Anderson & Gary mixed up).

But Denver was more or less always looking for the guy after TD. Had they not traded Clinton Portis, he'd have been THE guy. Had the other guy not got the big head, he'd have been THE guy because he was good enough, not "special" like TD, Portis, or Foster.

You put a "special" guy in this "simple" system & you've got a Super Bowl contender.

Ben Tate's got some ability & he may very well be "special" but can't read the blocks & adjust on the fly like Arian can.

The Shanahan/Kubiak scheme is acquiring RBs cheaply in terms of draft picks, roll through them until getting a hit and then ride that back out including giving them a contract or valuing them very highly.

Terrell Davis - given a big contract way before necessary in his 2nd season of his rookie contract.
Portis - traded for a top 3 CB plus the 2nd round pick spent to get him.
Foster - gave him his market value.
Morris - again not sharing the load 335 att. next most 23 att. in his rookie year ending 2nd in yds to AP and 2nd in TDs to Foster - you can guarantee the Skins will pay him.

Who are the good RBs they have let go to avoid paying?

Portis was the only high pick , same round as Tate . I think the Texans would have let Foster walk if they thought they thought the fans wouldn't blow up .

The point is they believe the system makes the player . TD was a late pick , Morris a late pick , Foster UFA , WR Rod Smith UFA , Shannon Sharpe 6th , MCaffery in a trade , and Walter for a 6th . The OL and DL had some high picks .

That was before hard caps and rule changes . Ground and pound is gone the way of the dodo bird .

Portis was the only high pick , same round as Tate . I think the Texans would have let Foster walk if they thought they thought the fans wouldn't blow up .

The point is they believe the system makes the player . TD was a late pick , Morris a late pick , Foster UFA , WR Rod Smith UFA , Shannon Sharpe 6th , MCaffery in a trade , and Walter for a 6th . The OL and DL had some high picks .

That was before hard caps and rule changes . Ground and pound is gone the way of the dodo bird .

The point keeps shifting.

They do not believe the system makes the player. They run quite a few RBs through until they find the one who fits to exploit the system. The fact a team has had success with lower round picks doesn't mean they think all the players are fungible.

It is ludicrous to think they would have let Foster go but for fan reaction Name the RBs they have let go who were league leaders over money? For that matter, name when ANY team does that?

They do not believe the system makes the player. They run quite a few RBs through until they find the one who fits to exploit the system. The fact a team has had success with lower round picks doesn't mean they think all the players are fungible.

It is ludicrous to think they would have let Foster go but for fan reaction Name the RBs they have let go who were league leaders over money? For that matter, name when ANY team does that?

I know he was longer into his career but the Texans got Ahmad Green and he was already done . Roger Craig left the 9ers , Eric Dickerson was traded , players leave .

Given how the drafts are handled, it is hard to disentangle what is coaching, what is GMing.

I do not buy that this is a team that is chalk full of talent. I wouldn't want to be mandated to play a noob UDFA behind a inconsistent line, no healthy TEs/RBs.

Though the pick 6 fest was likely not predictable, the other roster composition/question mark issues were:

*right side of line
*RB health, and future of RB with Tate leaving
*Thin at TE for a team that uses 2 TE a lot, particularly with concerns on offensive line.
*a quarterback that had been in significant decline end of 2012, with no real plan of future replacement.
*hardly any NFL catches for any WRs not named Andre Johnson, and the route errors that come from that.
*no production from d linemen not named JJ Watt and Antonio Smith. Hoping to see something from Earl Mitchell that had never been seen from him.
*linebacker group was so thin, injured, inexperienced, that they tried out Brooks Reed at ILB during camp.
*safety. I don't want to even talk about it because it makes me stabby.
*corner. I don't crush JJo/KJ as much as some because they are asked to play man a ton without the pass rush, safeties that would help. But not their finest year, and all the other corners are a testament that you don't want Smith picking corners. (BTW, Frank Bush was a huge KJ supporter in that draft given his relationship with Saban).
*unproven kicker with no competition.
*little team speed in general, very little for special teams.

In an AFC that is wide open for those teams who didn't quit, Texans had a tough early schedule, had everything break bad, missed their high expectations and gave up the season by going all in on Keenum.

The case for Rick Smith is summed up by Jerome Solomon. The short version implies that McNair knows whose decisions were whose, and that Rick Smith wanted to (mortgage the cap) to get Peyton Manning, and coaches were um no.

I've talked to NFL folks outside the Texans who knew the relative cap situations of Denver, Titans, Texans, 49ers, and believe that there was no way that the Texans could have realistically been in running for teh Peyton. That Texans being floated as a name was all about negotiation leverage.

But theoretically, the reason why Rick Smith stays is because of deals he didn't do. Because he was so damn ineffectual and non-persuasive at his job, he wants credit for alternative histories that did not happen. And take zero responsibility for stupid stuff like having a team full of needs but getting old, broken, forever rabble rousing Ed Reed as the big off-season acquisition without bringing Wade Phillips as part of the decision making process. (An adult supervision GM woulda gone nah).

Oh goody! So we get to see what Rick Smith looks like when he gets the training wheels kicked off. Nothing. I mean nothing in his background makes you go, "Whew, it is a good thing Rick Smith is handling this draft."

The process is set up for failure. Who wants to work for a "front office" who complains to people in the media as their head coach is recovering from stroking out? Personally, I like the clean house model where you pick the GM, let the GM pick the coach. How is it that the Texans want an experienced HC, but don't impose that same criteria to Rick Smith?

I don't know of another NFL franchise more tight lipped than the Texans. This organization has had very few leaks, leaving those of us very focused on following them to make another of guesses and assumptions based on very, very little information. All that is to say that I doubt outsiders considering working for the Texans will avoid the situation because it appears more dysfunctional than most- Well, usually when a coach has quit or been fired there is some dysfunction that is evident.. but those are the only opportunities available in the NFL... Consider other NFL jobs likely to be available and how those organizations would appear regarding issues like integrity: Washington Redskins (umm, no), Dallas Cowboys (umm, no), Detroit Lions, Oakland Raiders?, NYJets... not exactly the picture of healthy and happy workplaces.

Also, I think it is important to consider Rick Smith's situation. His role, certainly until 2011, was designed so that his only recourse to protect himself and aid the organization when he saw errant decisions being made would be to say, "Bob, this is an issue. I think we need to do "A" and Gary is going to do "B"... As a Kubiak supporter, I can forgive Rick for that "betrayal". As a Texan fan, I'm thankful for it and for the role that played (I believe) in arresting control of the defense from Kubiak so we could get a competent defensive coordinator in Houston.

All in all, I'm not sold of Rick Smith but am hopeful and interested to see how the organization looks with his leadership. I have significant trust in his ability to acquire and assess personnel and ability to make the tough decision... I do worry about his ability to lead- hire and articulate direction and a vision to coaches... We will see.