LOL VB, that's getting a bit too technical. Especially since most who were born when it was legal to snag are probably long since dead (unless they grew up on the Great Lakes). Difference is, most can pickup a spinning rod and at least get the rig out there. Some can never pickup how to cast a fly rod, even with teaching (know a few guys who gave it completely up even after lessons at shops). What I'm getting at is it shouldn't be what rod you have in your hand, it should be what you're using on the other end. Bait /scent restrictions are great. Lots of other things can be used in their place.

And, my Granddad wouldn't been royally ticked if he was alive today and wasn't a flyfisherman (luckily, when he died at 98 a couple years ago he was an avid fly and gear fisherman). He grew up fishing the Hoh and OP from the 1910's to his death. I know if he didn't fish flies, he'd probably been tiffed a bit. But there are others not in that boat. Under your premise, chances are those guys will STILL be fishing that way. If they're snagging, they'll STILL be snagging. But bait/livebait to "selective gear" is a whole different ball of wax. Most people can easily adjust. I know my Dad and I have on alot of rivers we've fished for years that have went to selective rules. That's just a change up of what is on the end of your line.

'69 is absolutely right. You can do just about anything with a flyrod that you can with other gear. I have a spool filled with 15# mono that I use on my downrigger in the salt. I use a tube-fly tied with dyed polar-bear that is incredibly effective for salmon(kings/cohos). And what a thrill to play the fish on the flyrod once it comes off the downrigger. Kind of like the Canadian mooching rig(which I also use). And yes, one of the most effective ways to "nymph" for steelhead is with an indicator and weighted fly or egg pattern(kind of like the single pin rigs also seen in Canada).Just to correct, the Hoko is fly-only above the upper bridge, below is free to all. Personally I like fly only water, as it gives me more water to fish, but of course, that is selfish Here is a question for those who do both gear and fly. How do you see fishing ettiquette compare between fly and gear fishermen? What is the basic difference in personality between fly and gear fishermen? I have friends that fish both ways, and often go fish with them while they fish gear. As long as we give each other some room, it's all good.

Cry fisherman??? Wow, if that's not an inflammatory mark. With the 'vibes' I am picking up from your post, do you often run into problems on the stream with flyfisherman?

As a 'cryfisherman' there are three things that irk me on the river. 1) Getting low holed by any angler whether on foot or by boat. 2) Any angler that sticks to one spot and does not rotate through the run to give everybody a fair chance to fish. 3) Any boat that intentionally floats over the shallow flyfishing flats that drive the fish into deeper water. Basically a lack of respect for other anglers. If you regularly cross these boundaries, you are regularly going to have streamside conflicts.

"have you guys ever noticed that the best fly guys ive seen use large strike indicators with split shot and an egg shaped fly or bead or a weighted fly and indicator just like Float fishing?????? or is it just me???"

Not too start another war from another point, but you are right- just like float fishing. Not 'really' flyfishing at all. And this simple point is a huge wedge driven between the fly community about what constitutes 'flyfishing'. And you think WSR is a hot topic...

And I agree- there does not need to be more 'flyfishing' only waters. Washington State's 'selective gear' rules are more than enough to protect the fish though lowering incidental mortality.

I won't weigh in on whether there should be more fly fishing only waters. What is clear from the posts here, however, if there is a lot of ignorance, and I'll say selfishness, on the part of the anti's.

If you want to catch steelhead on a fly, you either need room, or a group of people fishing the same way. If there are guys standing 10 feet away on each side of you, you can't fly fish. If there is a gear chucker standing 20 feet below you, and not moving, you can't fly fish. Oh, sure, you can cast, but you can't fish. If you are going to try and tell a flyfisher that Blue Creek is available, well, pardon me while I roll my eyes and proceed to ignore the rest of what you have to say on the subject, because you clearly aren't interested in reason.

I fish both ways, and can see both sides. Given that flyfishermen comprise about 10 percent of the anglers, y'all should be grateful that there are only 3 out of the 200 steelhead streams in this state that have gear restrictions.

Not that it matters at all, but I'll add a little bit. I like to fly fish, but have given up on it for rivers.....just too much water that cannot be covered by fly fishing. In my book, if you are adding weight and strike indicators, you aren't fly fishing......any more than using a spin bobber and fly.....if the presentation can't be cast back and forth, it's just a fly fishing cheat. Legal, but so what? My experience is that late in the season fly fishing can produce a lot of fish...right off their redds....sorry, not interested in that, either.

This doesn't mean at all, that I don't enjoy fishing next to or with a fly fisherman. Most I have met are rather nice. There are a few whose fashion statement is more show than go, but as long as their ego is not condiscending, I enjoy the effort and beauty of a well executed double haul and the mindful mending of fly line.

To be fair, we need a few waters designated fly only with no retention, a few single barbless hook one fish a day retention, and a select few managed as fish any way you want, kill your limit, no effete fly fishers allowed, unless they can chew tobacco, cuss like a logger, and promise not to be releasing any fish.

That way each group could experience whatever particular ambiance they like best in a fishing situation. Of course the first two groups would have consistently better fishing, as the latter group would soon wipe out most of the fish, but they would have the philosophical joy of knowing that their rights were protected. And each group could have roughly the same amount of water to fish. Seems too fair to me.

Ok I do both grear and fly. read the hole thing before you fire your guns

the snobish of the snobs that you ever meet on the river are usualy A FEW fly fishermen Im willing to bet that avid fly fishing commissioner R.P. Van geekensmeck has other ideas that are to follow. BUT AT THE SAME TIME especially for example king fishing on the samish (meat rivers) you can meet ALOT of unsavory fishermen that really dont give 2 cents weather they are rude or not....Ive SEEN AND HEARD some terrible stuff and sometimes near kids and didnt like it. I dont see why someone would have special rites to fish water that should belong to everyone. as a management tool is a pretty lame stand to take, if the run is that low then the river in question sholud be closed to every one

...But for some unknown reason the fly snobs believe that is there are no other people with the same passion as they have and might perfer to chuck spoons, pink worms, jigs etc.

deciding on how other people fish or release fish is snobish dont ya think....DJ

3. Flyfishermen fishing for chums or pinks on the Skagit. I've seen the L.L. Bean catalog models slide out of their Mercedes SUV's, saunter on down to the river, and proceed to foul hook fish after fish, right of their redds if it's chum season. Not only that, they manage to look down their noses at the "gear guys", even the ones that are actually fishing moving water and legally hooking fresh fish.

6. Any fishermen, fly or gear, who stand on the same rock for four hours. At least move around a little bit.

7. Float fishermen at Reiter. Doesn't anyone remember when that hole was the most classic drifting hole in the entire steelheading world? Can't drift worth a crap in there anymore with the flotilla.

To me, the idea of dumping all fly fishers, especially in WA, into a single attitude shows total ignorance. I've fished bait and gear for 30 years and now fish exclusively fly. Why? I find it more challenging- more physical and athletic, more thinking with the flies I've learned to tie (poorly and yes less effective- but way more fun for me. I've yet to meet anyone who has given fly fishing a try who doesn't still participate even if they gear fish a bit here and there. So I would say I've never met a great fisherman who hasn't tried fly fishing, who doesn't still do it. I've met many, most, fly fishers who grew up bait and gear fishing and choose not to fish that style now. I've never met an anti-fly guy who's actually tried fly fishing. As for Fly only water- the only exclusion is talent. If you can't cast a fly line, you can't catch fish. No big deal... so much the better.

Very interesting (Arte Johnson would love this) Etiquette is lacking on everyone not just the fly guys!Reading all the post makes you think a little?Every one has problems with cracker?Fly or Gear guys.Maybe better education?

I agree that they release fish but I also think soft fly rods and the drag of the heavy fly line along with the slow fight due to a small leader test also kill more fish due to exhaustion...DJ

You would be hard pressed to find an angler out there with soft fly rods and small leaders catching steelhead. It takes just as long to land a steelhead on a flyrod as it does a run of the mill drift rod.

There are also many anglers who fish terminal tackle with too light of rods and too light of leaders that play steelhead to death.

Whether you are a flyfishermean or a gear fisherman, it is your responsibility to use the apporiate gear for the situation. And each user group can very easily show up to the river 'under gunned.'

And as I said in an earlier thread, you will not find me advocating for new fly-only waters for steelhead as I think Selective Fisheries serve the same purpose. And I will be honest, I have no problem with Selective Fisheries and I believe that the WDFW needs to utilize Selective Fishery regulations more often to help protect our juvenille steelhead, salmon and resident trout. Selective Fisheries do NOT exclude a single user group!

DJ-Your arguement may seem a little more valid to the rest of us, if you provided basis for your constant use of the word 'snob' and your name calling towards Pete V.G.

Remember, this is NOT an issue of fly vs. gear. It never has been, it never will be.

InlandI agree cry fisherman is harsh and uncalled for. sorry. It really pushes my buttons though when An area that i have fished for 30 years, and caught my first fish in is all of the sudden closed to me cause fly fishing is better than a barbless hook on a spinner. Recently i got into jig fishing on the hoh in the park in the summer but now i cant while some guy with a fly rod can through a jig and indicator in the same spot. Just cause we used different reels we cant fish the same spot?????? That is why i have a problem with fly fishing in general. I moved to this state to fish areas like this. And cause i dont ff i cant fish them all????? Again Inland Im sorry I shouldnt have said that and im sure there are alot of good guys that ff.Kris

Oh yeah if it makes any diff. i met a fly guy on the hoh one time and he was a great guy. I was fighting a nice steelie and he came down and video taped it for me. We ended up fishing for the rest of the day together and he hooked and lost a nice fish along the way. Like i said he was a great guy and i still have the flashy jig/flies he gave me. I just have a problem with fly only waters and im sorry to say this but that rule about holding fish out of water is bs!!!!!!! i think that has been covered enough already though. Im sorry if this pissed anyone off but its how i feel.KrisBob if you read this do you know if anything is or has been done on the hoh. Would there be a way to do something cause ff only in the park is bs. In all the years i was up ther i saw MAYBEE 2 other people so i know killing fish wasnt a problem. And im all for going out and taking action on this one. Thanks kris.

deciding on how other people fish or release fish is snobish dont ya think....DJ [/QB]

DJ: Not at all. Your argument could just as well be made by snaggers, gillnetters, dynamiters and any one else whose "rights" are restricted by the rules. That's what sport fishing rules do.

I have actually met a few snobbish fly fishers, maybe even a slightly higher percentage of them than gear guys. But gear guys can be snobs too. I know one who thinks downriggers are the same as commercial fishing and will not set foot on a boat that has a down rigger. I know one who thinks side drifting is for imbeciles and those who have absolutely no talent as steelheaders. But, I, like so may fly flingers do both, enjoy both, and do not believe one manner of fishing is somehow more holy than another. Yet the fly guys have a hard time enjoying their sport when crowded in with gear guys and I think they should be able to enjoy the fruits of the better fishing that results from their generally strong C&R ethic. Note that the vast majority of all selective gear waters do allow spinners, spoons, flatfish, as long as they have a single barbless hook. But I seldom see any gear guys on the Yakima or other selective gear waters. I wonder why? Don't want to rub elbows with the snobs or only want to fish with bait?

Intresting topic. I spent some time looking it up and Idaho has no "fly fishing only waters".. there are bait restictions in several places and single barbless hook restrictions in some places, but no "fly fishing only water"... I used to be a fly fishing only guy, until I realized that there was a lot more out there. I would think it would un-constitutional to impose a fly fishing only rule on public water ?? However, WSR is not about fly fishing... lots of people think its a good idea who don't even own a fly rod