sure he murders half of New York and destroys entire buildings but he is still a good guy.

Max Payne was crafted as the ultimate Anti-Hero. The characters he destroys are clearly evil, but for every boss he dispatches in graphic slow motion the pangs of regret fall upon his consciousness like the empty shells he leaves in his wake.

"Nothing livens up a robotic hymn of doom more than an amazing pair of jugs." - Brak

Johnny, 13, goes and buys a game that is rated MA. Assuming a law is passed that makes it illegal for anyone under 17 to buy this game, his mom/dad finds out and gets very upset. 30 min later mom/dad comes storming into the video game store and demands to know why they sold their kid a MA rated video game. After venting for a few min they leave and go to a lawyer and demand the store be fined for breaking the law, same process a store would get for selling alcohol to minors.

So is this law, if enforced, going to make children less violent or protect them in some way? Can you also argue that keeping kids from seeing R rated movies makes them less violent and protects them? We already restrict access to movies and we have violence in schools that is appauling.

Those aren't the kind of games they're bitching about though. They are making a fuss about games like Grand Theft Auto 3 and True Crime. I'm sure they'd have a field day with Mafia if it were more popular. Max Payne probably wouldn't go down too well either. These are all games in which you play the bad guy.

Actually in Max Payne you play the good guy, sure he murders half of New York and destroys entire buildings but he is still a good guy. He is just going to Hell … twice.

O, yeah I loved playing a 2 yr old console game that made my $3,500, top of the line, I-don't-have-a-girlfriend PC almost melt. --Zepher (referencing Halo)

I forgot about this, I've been paraphrasing it for about ten years now.

Somebody mentioned something about TBS. Well that station seems to rip out all references to sexuality and even bleeps out swear words, but intense graphical violence is okay.

Jack Nicholson said something like this many years ago "In american TV, lick a tit and it's rated X, hack off a tit with a chain-saw and it's PG-13."

Get your values straight. I can watch an old Chuck Norris film on TBS where he brutally murders thirtey-two different people in a violent way with blood and guns and everything, but they cut out nudity and and bleep out the 'cuss words'. Bizarre, dude. Very weird. Great exploding graphic chest holes, but no bad words or tits.

TBS, the graphically violent action station for men that like blood, without tits and bad words. Strange culture that one.

It's not weird. It's pure and simple escapism. To be able to experience things you could never experience in reality. Without fear of consequence in an imaginary world. Humans have been doing this since time immemorial. Besides, one could argue that the "ultimate good" in most games can never justify the violent means used.

It's not a question of good or bad, it's how well a person can prevent the more negative aspects of gaming from influencing his preception of reality.

"Nothing livens up a robotic hymn of doom more than an amazing pair of jugs." - Brak

If you want to make some things more difficult to get for minors, go ahead. We do it for booze, smokes, porn and violent movies, but kids will get to it eventually if they really want to. Heck I was masturbating to Playboy of all things when I was eleven, smoking pot and even played a game called 'Schoolyard Shootout' on the Atari ST what twenty years ago? The graphics sucked so you had to use your imagination. Who cares.

My friends daughter (eleven) comes over and I let her play Quake 3, she's well adjusted and knows it's just over the top, exagerrated fun. In fact she first started playing at nine, which might sound young, but she has a brain, and it wasn't 'disturbing' her. She's top of her class and very intelligent. She certainly isn't a 'killing machine' in the making.

Her mom thinks these games are 'stupid' and doesn't see the point, but doesn't forbid her from playing when she comes over. And if she did, I would respect that and put in Kings Quest VI, which we also play.

If she was a maladjusted kid and was always getting into fights at school and failing class and being an ass, maybe I wouldn't let her play, but then again, maybe if she was a kid like that this would be just the sort of aggresive outlet a person needs, who knows.

As for making violent games R-rated for minors, go for it. It won't affect me, and it probably won't do much in the grand scheme of things either.

I only read the first half of all the posts in this thread, but I bet that I could go through this thread and pick out with 90% accuracy the people that have kids, and the ones that don't. In GENERAL, The ones that don't say anyone should have access to any game. Generally, people with kids want a more moderated environment.

I also bet that many of the people who have kids were one like the ones that don't, and once thought universal access was the desirable alternative. Life changes when you have kids, perspectives change. I am of the persuasion that there should be restrictions in place, but, more importantly, parents should play an active role in filtering media, based on the maturity level and personality of each kid. It takes work, yes, but anyone who thinks raising kids is easy or takes no work probably isn't a very attentive parent, and it will be a miracle if their kids wind up well-adjusted.

g Giant Talking Cat murdering Tank piloting nuke dropping Alien Genocide technician who is also an expert at the use of Handguns, Knives, Crowbars, Bats, Shotguns, Submachineguns, machineguns, rocket launchers, alien-insect guns, gauss rifles, mechanical humanoid super weapons, grenades, dynamites, mortars, flamethrowers, plasma guns, rail guns (both handheld and mech-mounted), BFGs and am well versed in Karate, Kung-Fu, Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, Kick Boxing, Samurai-sword fighting, Fencing, Medical Aid, helicopter flying, carjacking, space-buffoonery, magic, police tactics, antiterrorist tactics, and communications from the year 1900 onwards. I can command entire armies across the entire world, and takeover entire civilizations easily. This is the power of someone who has played video games since they were young and impressionable. If you are a: Zombie, Kilrathi, Friendly Human, a Cop, a Firefighter, a Paramedic, a Nazi, an American, British, a Terrorist, a Dog, a Shambler, from the planet Xen, or in any of the gangs : Yakuza, Daibatsu, or the Scientists, I will fuck your ass up without flinching. Do not fuck with the video gamers Mr. Yee. We are well trained assassins, medics, murderers, psychos, pilots, torturers, tunnelers, Generals, Antiterrist super agents, criminal masterminds, Martial arts experts, swordmasters, witches, sorcerers and warlocks. You have no chance to survive.Also realize, I will eat the red mushroom and grow to massive proportions. The leaf can and does imbue me with the power to fly over you with a wag of my raccoon tail. Eating flowers results in fire-balls of your demise. I can Stack things with stalkingly-torturesome efficiency. I will construct complex structures with only a set of pliers. There is no stopping the violent young video gamers.

This comment was edited on Dec 1, 11:39.

STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU

STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE, GET OUT OF THAT BED AND GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR, GET OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE: GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DONT CARE IF YOU'RE NUDE, GET DOWN ON THE CEMENT, I DON'T CARE IF ITS FREEZING! WHERES THE DRUGS, WE KNOW YOU GOT THE DRU

As has been said earlier, games don't teach you anything of value in real word use. Shooting a gun in a game is nothing like shooting a gun in real life. The idea itself is just hilarious to be honest.

Actually, from my years playing Team Fortress I've learned teamwork, loyalty, sportsmanship, and honor.

I still haven't quite gotten the killing, stalking and maiming part down, but I'm working on it.

Yeah, problems that for a large part stem from bad parenting. How does a kid know that it's wrong to kill if they are never taught it? When you're young violence is a very viable option when it comes to getting your way, and if you never learn otherwise...

Hey, anyone think I've got an axe to grind here?

I'm with you entirely Von, though I'm not sure an axe to grind is entirely the appropriate metaphor

I know where you are coming from, but the point is that these kinds of games where you are playing the anti-hero don't cause people to go out and kill and there is little empirical evidence to say that it does.

Whilst I do think violent gaming in general would be an influence, there are deeper and harder to answer issues with the twisted people who actually do go out and murder others and then blame it on a third party (the devil, that film, that book, that game)

Modern (western) society is pretty screwed up on this front.

===B: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?

P: I think so, Brain, but where are we going to find a duck and a hose at this hour?

The government should not be able to decide for us what the children in our society what they can or cannot play. I personaly dont see anything wrong with FPS's and the such. Sure they all involve killing various types of enemies, but just look at the type they kill. That is where people are blind. They see violence in killing someone, but games like Rainbow six, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor and even Jedi Academy... What do all these games have in common other than enemies being killed? The battle between GOOD and EVIL. I myself am 27 and an avid gamer and have been since before i could comprehend what it was all about and I havent played many games where I was the bad guy., The games that let you take out terrorists, Nazis, demons, I say we need more games like these. Screw what any government official says.

Those aren't the kind of games they're bitching about though. They are making a fuss about games like Grand Theft Auto 3 and True Crime. I'm sure they'd have a field day with Mafia if it were more popular. Max Payne probably wouldn't go down too well either. These are all games in which you play the bad guy.

Actually, I do find something morally questionable in playing those kind of games, especially the more anarchic ones like the GTA series. In most violent games the cause is for the greater good - the violence leads to some kind of improvement (no matter how outlandish, be it alien invasions or saving the world from terrorism) which in utilitarian terms is a good thing. Games like GTA have you as the bad guy... which is kinda weird.