I agree with : one doesn't need to the Internet or an expert standing by to get good results from bespoke, and that perhaps trying to digest 3 different tailors in 1 year might have been too much. And we have to remember that these are 2D photographs, so the result IRL may be quite different.

I agree that there may be more here than meets the internet eye.
To me, it's a sad state of affairs when the client needs to have enough experience/knowledge that he is expected to hold a competent tailor accountable to deliver a proper fit. That just seems wrong. I like an educated client but to a different end. The more he knows the better he can comprehend the results of the custom clothing process and appreciate the difference but not to direct a tailor at what he should be proficient.
Montesquieu,
Try Caraceni Milan and start a new thread.

Now, I'm curious. What does one need for bespoke success? Obviously it's not guaranteed given the countless bespoke (alleged) tragedies on this forum.

Some thoughts: 1. Get your expectations straight. Know the tailor's house style. Know the pitfalls of bespoke. Don't expect perfection immediately. 2. Pick the best tailor you can afford. Unless the difference is extreme, I'd go so far as to pick the better tailor than the one whose house style is closer to what I like. 3. Be clear about the garment you want, but don't bring a spec sheet. "I want a tweed odd jacket with patch pockets that buttons three-roll-two" is good. "Here is my CAD drawing of the lapel shape I'd like you to implement with millimeter precision" is not. Maybe the greatest lesson one can learn on StyleForum is how to describe a jacket by its basic components. 4. Take your time: order one garment before ordering more. Kinks will inevitably show up that neither you nor your tailor noticed before. 5. Manage the relationship, not the tailoring. Enthusiastically engage by asking questions and pointing things out, but don't instruct. The tailor has his way of doing things that he is comfortable with and proud of. Cross his ego and experience at your own hazard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despos

I agree that there may be more here than meets the internet eye. To me, it's a sad state of affairs when the client needs to have enough experience/knowledge that he is expected to hold a competent tailor accountable to deliver a proper fit. That just seems wrong. I like an educated client but to a different end. The more he knows the better he can comprehend the results of the custom clothing process and appreciate the difference but not to direct a tailor at what he should be proficient. Montesquieu, Try Caraceni Milan and start a new thread.

But hasn't he already tried a few very good tailors? With results like these, isn't the clear implication that it's not the tailors completely to blame? Moreover, it seems like none of the apparent problems are so bad they cannot at least be corrected on future orders. Montesquieu's error, in my book, was ordering so many garments in serial so quickly. Why not pick one of the three he's already used, and have them tweak a bit? Adding another world-renouned tailor to the mix will just force him to go through the same startup pains he's already gone through with the others.

We spent quite a bit of time discussing how to make the jacket for me. On areas where we agree for example, both Antonio and I wanted to cut the lapels wider, but for different reasons. He thinks the wide lapel helps to balance the wider chest, while for me, I wanted wide lapels to balance my wider face. We both wanted to have front and back drape for movement. We also had ideas the other did not think of, for example I made very specific requests to have no padding for the shoulders at all, and Antonio was very specific on where the button point should be, despite my initial doubt.

I think the input from both the customer and the tailor was able to make this a very personal commission. I still look like me in this jacket, and there is no mistake, from the details and execution, that this is a Liverano jacket as well.

Do you see a marked difference between Attolini MTM and bespoke, or am the only one? The MTM has no shaping in the chest. It looks like they just took a RTW jacket and cut at the sides.

I realize that you love the 'pectoral bowl', but could this impression also not be caused (in part) by different fabrics/canvas in the different commissions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

There is nothing controversial about how exceedingly fantastic I look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Well, nothing looks uncorrectable to me and I stand by my opinion that you don't need to be an expert to get good results from a good tailor. I knew as little as you did when I first started with Rubinacci.

Just stepping up for Monte (since you're making the direct comparison): while I will refrain from commenting on the former quote, I am not sure that (at least a number of) Monte's commissions came out worse than your Rubinacci commissions.

Was this meant condescendingly? I was and am still learning, and I trusted that tailors' fit judgment over my own. Given my three days experience in bespoke relative to their decades, this seemed prudent to me.

I doubt that I'm the only bespoke client who doesn't micromanage fit, especially when working with tailors in another language.

As a client of the great Neapolitan tailors, and a native Italian speaker, I can tell you going to get fitted by yourself (as I assume you did), not speaking Italian (as you note), and most likely giving off the impression you were a neophyte was probably not advantageous. With Italians (even famous bespoke tailors) giving them the impression that you know what you are talking about is KEY to getting proper service--it's their cultural mentality, and though they will not admit it, it runs too deep to be ignored. This is not so much the case in the UK. But it is a definite factor in Italy, unfortunately.

2. Pick the best tailor you can afford. Unless the difference is extreme, I'd go so far as to pick the better tailor than the one whose house style is closer to what I like.

3. Be clear about the garment you want, but don't bring a spec sheet. "I want a tweed odd jacket with patch pockets that buttons three-roll-two" is good. "Here is my CAD drawing of the lapel shape I'd like you to implement with millimeter precision" is not. Maybe the greatest lesson one can learn on StyleForum is how to describe a jacket by its basic components.

4. Take your time: order one garment before ordering more. Kinks will inevitably show up that neither you nor your tailor noticed before.

5. Manage the relationship, not the tailoring. Enthusiastically engage by asking questions and pointing things out, but don't instruct. The tailor has his way of doing things that he is comfortable with and proud of. Cross his ego and experience at your own hazard.

Great advice. I'm satisfied with how I followed #1-#3.

With respect to #4, I very consciously chose not to do this. Folks on SF have consistently said that it takes three or more progressive commissions to perfect a fit and pattern. I ordered all three Rubinaccis in one visit. I placed Attolini and Steed orders over a variety of visits, but oftentimes I'd order one while doing a first or second fitting of another; they weren't progressive. Why? I was caught up in the adventure of experimentation, enjoying the diversity of styles, in love with the fabrics, appreciating the experts with whom I interacted, and running short of time to replace everything before returning to the US, where nothing has ever fit me. So I'm left with kinks that, relative to what I had RTW, seem lovable in comparison. I'm sufficiently happy with all but one order. They express me well. Perfection may not yet have been reached, but it's proximity is close enough for happiness and far enough for motivation.

My regret is #5. As others have noted, there's a level of knowledge required to bring out the best in a tailor, and that is part of graduating from client to valued relationship. At work, I stretch and coach my team to achieve greatness. I didn't do that with my tailors, and they probably regard me as an enthusiastic but interchangeable client. Two years into this, I have a ways to go. I'm inspired by those who have achieved better fits from my same tailors, thanks to their personal expertise and cultivated relationships. Style is fun. I'd love to improve my partnerships another two notches.

[quote=EBugatti;3118139]As a client of the great Neapolitan tailors, and a native Italian speaker, I can tell you going to get fitted by yourself (as I assume you did), not speaking Italian (as you note), and most likely giving off the impression you were a neophyte was probably not advantageous. With Italians (even famous bespoke tailors) giving them the impression that you know what you are talking about is KEY to getting proper service--it's their cultural mentality, and though they will not admit it, it runs too deep to be ignored. This is not so much the case in the UK. But it is a definite factor in Italy, unfortunately.[/QUOTE

It is very very true...

If you speak Italian and show them you do know your tailoring basics ,they will have more respect for you and do a better job..

It is the same all around Italy..They think if you want an Italian look ,anything close to it will be sufficient for a non-connoisseur...

I always remember catching certain comments made by Rubinacci's staff in Italian about certain customers and it was quite revealing of a certain attitude...