Title of sound recording: Oral History Interview with David Pryor, June
13, 1974. Interview A-0038. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007)

Title of series: Series A. Southern Politics. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (A-0038)

Author: Walter DeVries and Jack Bass

Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with David Pryor, June 13,
1974. Interview A-0038. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)

Title of series: Series A. Southern Politics. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (A-0038)

Author: David Pryor

Description: 110 Mb

Description: 26 p.

Note:
Interview conducted on June 13, 1974, by Walter DeVries
and Jack Bass; recorded in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Note:
Transcribed by Linda Killen.

Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series A. Southern Politics, Manuscripts Department, University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.

Editorial practicesAn audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines.Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
references.All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "All em dashes are encoded as —

Interview with David Pryor, June 13, 1974. Interview A-0038. Southern
Oral History Program Collection (#4007)

[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

Page 1

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

JACK BASS:

What is the state of Arkansas politics, right now?

DAVID PRYOR:

What is it? It's neither fish nor fowl. It's almost like it was in 1968
when we voted for Rockefeller, Wallace, and Fulbright. It is ferociously
independent and very proud of its independence. It's very proud of its
new independence. As a state and as a voting population. It's very
proud. It's kind of like shackles have been taken off of it, us in the
last decade. It's almost like we're voting for the first time.

WALTER DEVRIES:

[unclear]

DAVID PRYOR:

I would say it's basically moderate. It's possibly populistic. It's
neither liberal nor conservative, but I would say moderate with a lot of
populism. But no big transitions in the last three or four or five
years.

JACK BASS:

Well, assuming you become governor, and I think that's a safe assumption,
do you plan—

DAVID PRYOR:

Remember, our voters are very independent. They may decide they want a
Republican governor.

JACK BASS:

We'll assume, for the sake of questioning . . . do you plan to take an
active role as head of the Democratic Party?

DAVID PRYOR:

In the state of Arkansas?

JACK BASS:

Right.

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, of course, to be very factual, and this is being published in 1976
[unclear] to be very honest with you,
I've never known quite what the state Democratic Party was or is

Page 2

in this state. It's only in the last four or five
years that we've even had an office or a filing cabinet. For years we
never had even a telephone or a secretary. It was run by whoever the
governor said is state Democratic secretary. And we just kept it, it was
just there. I mean, when I say it was there, it was . . . every two
years we held a state convention. We had no political party. We have
developed, to a degree, a political party and a structure since
Rockefeller. But it's not a political party per se as you would think of
in any other state.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Was the Democratic Party essentially a Faubus party until 1966?

DAVID PRYOR:

Right. And the Republican Party came about because of an anti-Faubus
sentiment.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Right. And our reading of the Republican Party was that it was a
Rockefeller party. Been out for four years. It literally died when he
died. It went because of lack of money and name and so on. The principal
impact of it was the reform of the Democratic party in the sense that it
started to elect moderate candidates or, maybe in a sense, that it
started to elect anti-Faubus candidates. Is that a pretty fair reading
of what's happened here?

DAVID PRYOR:

In other words, the Democratic Party finally emerged as a party during
the Rockefeller years.

WALTER DEVRIES:

It was reformed or [unclear].

DAVID PRYOR:

It was not quite reformed because it was nothing to reform. It, I would
say, was born during the Rockefeller years. And it's going to be very
hard . . . just as the Republican Party has died, it's going to be very
hard to keep the Democratic Party alive. Because to remain alive and
viable you've got to have a good opponent. You've got to have something
to be against. And right now we talk about the Republicans being a great
menace or something like that, and really they're not a

Page 3

great menace. We might can run against Richard Nixon this fall or
talk about how bad Watergate is, but that's the only real thing we have
going for us. Now you can't talk about Rockefeller because he's dead now
and he's gone and he's respected. As goes the way with most politicians,
you die, you come off at a good perspective. We don't have an enemy to
keep us alive and going. We don't have a battleground.

WALTER DEVRIES:

But the moderate wing of the Democratic Party, if you want to call it
that, has been strengthened at least by two victories in 1970 and '74
over Faubus. Is that right?

DAVID PRYOR:

That's absolutely true.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Okay. So in a sense it is stronger, in the last four years, than it was
in the period before that.

DAVID PRYOR:

Absolutely. As a party. With party machinery and with county conventions,
elected delegates to the state convention and this sort of thing.
Yes.

JACK BASS:

Would you like to see any change in the status of the Democratic Party?
Would you like to see it become stronger as a political party?

DAVID PRYOR:

In Arkansas?

JACK BASS:

In Arkansas.

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, to be honest with you, I would like to see the Arkansas Democratic
Party become more active on the national level, in national politics. It
has been a separate, independent entity. Kind of divorced, basically,
from the national party or any national problems or whatever. I think we
could do a lot more about making our state party more nationally
oriented. And the people say, "Well, the Democratic Party nationally is
too liberal. And they've got the Humphreys and a few of those guys up
there running the thing." The reason they have is the state parties have
not activated themselves, you know, enough in the national

Page 4

party structure. I think we've moved to that degree in some
way. We've moved that way to some extent, but I think we can do
more.

WALTER DEVRIES:

You want to get more of a presidential party, or at least more in tune
with the national Democratic presidential party.

DAVID PRYOR:

I want it to have more input in national Democratic politics as far as
platform, as far as chosing a candidate for president, as far as making
the real, concerted, concentrated effort to become an advocate for
middle America and what you might call the New South and all like this,
which would be, I think, a voice of neither conservatism or liberalism.
A voice of moderation. Down the middle. That's where the votes are and
that's where the people are and where the problems are. And I think the
state Democratic Party, not only here but all across the South, will do
this. I think we've got to if we're going to elect a Democratic
president even in 1976. A lot of people say, "Oh man, we've got it made
in '76," but I don't know who we have it made with. We can't sell Ted
Kennedy here at this stage. Oh, I better not . . . but it will be very
hard to sell a Kennedy here in this state.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Do you think with your congressional background you can do more of this
as governor than some of the other people have in the past?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, I would say that I'm more comfortable in working in that
environment than someone else who may not have been there. But as far as
me having a great deal more input there because I was a congressman,
other than just personal relationships with people that I know across
the country or in Washington or whatever, I don't know. But I think,
frankly, I think the people are . . . I think our people are going to
look away from Washington for leadership. I think they'll look to guys
like, well, now he's going to be a part of Washington . . . I think
they'll look to guys like Bumpers for national leadership. I talked to
Dale Bumpers for about an hour before he announced and I thought that
what he should

Page 5

—he was just getting ready to go to a
governors' conference. [Discussion of which governors' conference.] In
March. I said, "You ought to go up there and ask for thirty minutes'
time. Get NBC, ABC, CBS up there. Say 'my fellow governors, and ladies
and gentlemen, I hereby announce my candidacy for president of the
United States. And I'm not going to run from Washington or from the
United States Senate or from a governor's office. I'm going to run from
Charleston, Arkansas, over the Dairy Queen store, and I'm going to run
it on $100 contributions and $10 contributions. I'm going on a lecture
circuit to support my family for the next two years. And if this
country's in the state where we have to go to the Senate or the Congress
or governor's office to chose a man to lead this country, and we can't
elect someone from grassroots America, then we're in bad shape.'" I
think, knowing him, knowing his abilities to get on that tube and
communicate, and knowing how totally hungry the Dan Rathers and Eric
Sevareids and all those people in Washington are for something fresh,
something new, and for a proven leader without scars, who had done a lot
for the state, totally clean, articulate, and young. I think he could
have been elected president of the United States. I think he could have
gotten the nomination at the Democratic convention this way. I was the
only one who seemed to feel like this but I wish . . . I thought he
could have done it. I think America is ready for that type of
candidate.

WALTER DEVRIES:

[unclear] argued that in a piece that he
wrote from Seattle.

DAVID PRYOR:

About Bumpers?

WALTER DEVRIES:

No, about the leadership will be coming not from Washington but from the
state capitals. The increasing prestige and stature of state governors
as compared to the last couple of years.

Let me get back to the reform of the state Democratic Party.

Page 6

DAVID PRYOR:

Sure.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Some of the people we've talked to have argued that they don't want it
any stronger. They don't want it any more organized into something that
has the aspects of a machine. What more could you do? You've only got
one senator and one representative in the general assembly that are
Republican.

JACK BASS:

That the Republican Party is so weak in this state that for the
Democratic Party to become stronger would put it in a position of sort
of strangling any sort of two-party system.

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, I think when they're talking about getting too strong they may be
talking about too much executive control over it. Do you think?

JACK BASS:

Talking about another Faubus kind of machine.

DAVID PRYOR:

Yeah. Frankly, internally, for the state of Arkansas for state politics,
I can't get overexhilarated about trying to make the state party . . . I
want it good. I want they should hold clean elections. We should keep
moving in the area of certain reforms and so forth. But so far as making
it stronger, it's pretty strong right now. And I don't know how much
more strength we should have or how much more organization we should
have. It's so much more operational and functional and organized now
than it was seven or eight years ago, it's unbelievable. Like I say, we
have nothing to relate it to because we had nothing to begin with. I
said we didn't have a file cabinet.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Did you get involved in elected politics in 1960 for the legislature? Was
that the first time that you ran? Say from 1960 on, what are the basic
changes you've seen, political changes.

DAVID PRYOR:

From '60?

WALTER DEVRIES:

Well, whenever you got actively involved in politics. Our book covers the
period from 1948 through 1974. I don't think you're old enough to go way
back to 1948 . . .

Page 7

DAVID PRYOR:

Let's see. I was running for class president probably along about that
time. What changes?

Well, the University of Arkansas board of trustees is a possible example.
Today the board of trustees at the University of Arkansas is made up of
extremely capable and intelligent men. And college boards all around the
state would be. There's a great movement, in this area. I've seen great
change here because in past years we would see on many many boards and
commissions nothing more than a raw political reward for employment. To
something like the University of Arkansas board of trustees or to a
highway commission job, or whatever. But now there is, not only in
practice but also by public demand . . . they demand a higher quality
individual to serve in these capacities. I've seen a remarkable and
drastic change in the state legislature itself in the past fourteen
years, since the time I went there. It's frankly not the same place.

JACK BASS:

Is that the result of reapportionment?

DAVID PRYOR:

It's the result of time and it's the result of people . . . I think it's
the result of people wanting to be a part of the system. For some reason
or another it is attracting better people. Maybe because its affluence
or something. Many young people now are getting to the stage where they
can afford to accept a hundred dollars a month and go to the state
legislature. Maybe it's because the people are demanding better
representation. Reapportionment evidently certainly has something to do
with this. There's just a higher standard in the state legislature.
There's just a higher standard. I think people who, fourteen years ago,
would introduce what we'd call a revenue bill . . . and when I'm talking
about revenue bill, I'm talking about a bill that would bring some
special interest to make them kill the bill or not bring it up or to
bring it up or whatever. I think people who would do that now would be
totally

Page 8

ostracized from the state legislature.
Fourteen years ago it was kind of the accepted thing. Everybody kind of
laughed about it and went on about their business. But now I think there
would be a total ostracizing of that legislator.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Any other changes?

DAVID PRYOR:

Better staff for the legislative council. More strength in the joint
budget committee and in the legislative council. They meet kind of
constantly throughout the year where they used to meet right before the
state legislature went into session. There's more money in the state and
as a result, I think, they've upgraded the departments and have been
able to attract better people into real positions of influence within
the state government. We're going to have to address ourselves to that
soon. In special session. Going to have to raise the salaries for some
people. University of Arkansas today I think to their president pays
$35,000. Maybe $35,700 or something. And I'm sure we're going to have to
update that in order to get, to attract the right kind of president
here. Football coach is paid $35,000. At one time he made more than the
president. But now the president makes more than he does. Everybody
makes more than the governor. That poor guy makes ten grand and that's
kind of a bad situation.

JACK BASS:

How important do you view the need for a new constitution?

DAVID PRYOR:

I worked a lot for a new constitution in the early '60s. Travelled around
the state and I think the Gazette one time referred to
me as a wandering political evangelist on this issue. I just spoke all
around the state on behalf of a new constitution. There are two
amendments on the ballot this fall. Amendment 55 and 56 which will
reform, to a degree, county government to allow better salaries and . .
. in this particular area. These would help out a great deal, but
generally speaking I would

Page 9

support another movement
for a new constitution. I would support another movement.

JACK BASS:

[unclear] to the extent of initiating
one?

DAVID PRYOR:

Possibly. Possibly. I would have no hesitancy about initiating one if we
had not concluded a convention so recently, which was 1970. It was
defeated on the ballot in 1970. I just don't know timing-wise whether it
is right or not. It may be that we can do it without a convention. It
may be that by legislative act and by referendum—referral to the people,
we call it—by the legislature's enactment and by referring it to the
people in a special election we might be able to circumvent a
convention. We might do it by governor's commission or something of this
sort. There's a possibility. The legalism I'm not quite certain on, nor
the timing.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Let's suppose you follow the Arkansas tradition and serve two terms. Our
book is trying to look into the future, too. Now you're looking back
over your two terms. What would you want to be able to say you had
accomplished in those four years as governor?

DAVID PRYOR:

I would like to be able to say that I was the catalyst between divergent
groups—black and white, labor and management, rural and city—that I
could make these people come together to realize how many things they
have in common rather than to exploit the differences that they have.
And I hope that's the type of administration that I will have. I'm
hoping that I can bring these people together before a confrontation.
Before a crisis. Before we go to war, for example, on the hot, involved
issues that divide [unclear]. I hope that I
can bring them together or help to bring them together. To set the
machinery in motion for them to more or less get to know each other,
because I believe through communication that we can accomplish these
things.

Page 10

I would also like to say, looking back, I would like to have done a great
deal for education within the state. I'm not just talking about
teachers' salaries, because I don't equate teachers' salaries with good
education. But generally the quality of education, improving our
educational system, is something I hope I might be able to bring about
somewhere down the trail. Let's see. . . that's kind of a hard question.
These are general thoughts. I'm not much of a concrete and mortar man. I
don't care about having any building. I'm not much on buildings and
bridges and this sort of thing. They're necessary, but they're not my
ideal or gauge, I guess, of progress. I don't equate concrete and bricks
and mortar with progress.

WALTER DEVRIES:

How would you bring these people together? By appointing more people from
the small minority groups or . . .? Do you have a plan?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, I think that . . . we are lagging right now in appointments of
minorities to boards and commissions and I think we could increase this
and I plan to do so. When I'm talking about minorities I'm not just
talking about blacks. I'm talking about women, also. But basically, by
forcing, if necessary, these folks to sit down and talk to each other.
And I think through the governor's office I can do this. I see so many
businesspeople talk about how bad labor is and they've never met anyone
or really talked to anyone about labor, about their problems. I mean,
labor people talk about business folks. And there's not any
communication. I hope we can do it. I hope, too, that industrially I can
look back and say that at least I had a part in leading our state, in
being very selective as to the type of industry, the type of business
that we brought into the state. Because we're at the stage now where we
can be very selective.

Just a few weeks ago there was a plant in Pine Bluff which announced that
it was not going to come. It was a smelter

Page 11

plant.
They announced that they were not going to locate in Pine Bluff,
Arkansas, Well, a lot of people, gloom and doom and all like that. Well,
frankly, it upset me none. One, I thought it was going to be a very
serious problem of pollution on the Arkansas River. It was going to be a
serious problem, eventually, of air pollution. I've never seen or heard
of a smelter plant that did not have some pollution problem along with
it. And frankly, I say, well, if they don't want to come that's fine. We
can afford to be very, very selective about it. And there'll be someone
else and I think there'll be someone else down the track that will
recognize the responsibilities of citizenship in this state. These are
just wild thoughts that seem to me . . .

JACK BASS:

What type of industry are you looking for?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, we need primarily . . . well, I don't know what . . . you mean
whether we need steel mills or this sort of thing or garment factories
or what?

WALTER DEVRIES:

But you're going to get away from the position of this state will take
any industry at all . . .

DAVID PRYOR:

That's right.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Okay, so you're going to kind of go on a selective growth pattern?

DAVID PRYOR:

Selective growth.

WALTER DEVRIES:

High pay industries.

DAVID PRYOR:

High pay industries. Many industries that have come into the state of
Arkansas in the past ten years . . . well, let me say in the past twenty
years, have come in only if we would waive property taxes. Have come in
only if the city in which they were coming in would build them a
building. They would come in only if they felt, I thought on many
occasions, if they thought they could take something from the
community

Page 12

or something from the state and
without any idea or real thought of ever putting anything back into the
state. Too many garment factories and too many shirt factories. Too many
groups such as this that came in and exploited our wage scale and our
people and kept their money in Chicago or Newark, New Jersey, or
somewhere like this and packed up and left. I think we can be very
selective about the type of industry that we bring in.

JACK BASS:

Being selective, what specifically would you like? What kind of industry?
Do you plan to take, play an active role in recruiting industry? Selling
the state to industrial prospects?

DAVID PRYOR:

I've only had about two weeks to really think about this since the
election and how active a role, I don't know. I will be a very
cooperative governor and I will appoint people who I think will attract
the right type of industry. When I say the right type of industry, I say
one that will pay good wages and, two, that will accept their
responsibilities of citizenship in the state. And they will not balk on
paying a few dollars taxes in the school system. Appointments to
Arkansas Industrial Development Commission, for example . . . I'll be
very careful to try to choose those people who, you know, are really
going to have the state at heart. As to whether or not they're going to
try to get General Motors to locate down here or Kelloggs or something
like that, I don't have any thoughts there. Any specific thoughts.

JACK BASS:

How about industry that's heavily unionized?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, we're eventually . . . I think everyone in this state realizes that
we are eventually . . . that our economy in this country is going to be,
to a great degree . . . most workers are going to belong to some type of
organization or association or labor union. And I think it is a fact of
life and I think we've got to realize this and I think we've

Page 13

got to make ready for it and I think we've got to, again,
we've got to open up channels of communication where we can talk. One of
the highest per capita income counties in this state is Saline County,
Benton. They have two steel mills, Alcoa and Reynolds, highly unionized.
Some of the labor union officers are on the board of directors of the
chamber of commerce. There's a great feeling and spirit of cooperation
there, and I think we can build this all over this state. I haven't seen
any detriment or anything bad happening in Benton, Arkansas, or Saline
County that I could have a fear of. They're clean unions, they're steel
workers, they're good citizens. Pay taxes. The school districts are
extremely well off financially, in fact, some of the richest in the
state. It's one of the what we call "hot towns" of this state because
it's growing, it's healthy. They have a good relationship. And I think
if labor is going to fight business and business is going to fight labor
there's no way to build that good relationship. I think we've got to
prepare to build that relationship, statewide.

JACK BASS:

Do you have any blacks on your staff when you were in Congress?

DAVID PRYOR:

Yes.

JACK BASS:

What do you plan to do in that regard as governor?

DAVID PRYOR:

I have no plans for a staff, at this time, except one person, who would
be my executive . . . whatever, administrative assistant or something
like that. I have no commitments for a staff; I have no plans. I don't
even know how many I can have. My assumption is that I'm going to have
someone black on my staff—not just because they're black but because
whoever I hire I think they're going to have capabilities of performing
whatever task they're given. I assume I'm going to have someone black on
my staff. Maybe several.

JACK BASS:

In a major position?

Page 14

DAVID PRYOR:

I would assume in a major position.

JACK BASS:

If you were hiring someone black, even though you say you want someone
capable, not just because they're black, since they are going to be
black, what sort of person would you like to have?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, I think the same person I would want to have if I hired someone
white who was capable. You know, someone . . . first, I want them loyal
to me. I want them to be honest with me. I don't want someone to tell me
that I'm doing everything right because I know that I won't be. Want
them to level with me. I want them to have a knowledge of government and
a knowledge of politics. Some degree, at least, of ability to
communicate with people. I don't know, look for the same qualities in a
black person or a white person.

JACK BASS:

Do you think the state needs a human relations board or commission?

DAVID PRYOR:

We do. Well, let's see, what was the proposal sponsored in '71? Was it .
. .

WALTER DEVRIES:

The human resources committee?

DAVID PRYOR:

It was not exactly named that but it was similar to it. It was kind of an
equal opportunity commission so to speak. They got hung up, as I
understand it, on whether or not they should have subpoena power.
Finally, the bill went down the drain on that point. I would have no
hesitation about not only helping such a commission be created, but also
sponsoring such a commission if I thought, you know, it would be
meaningful. I don't want to do it and just have another commission out
there that doesn't meet or doesn't function. If it's going to be
functional, if it will do some good, I would be for it. But I don't want
just another commission for a commission's sake. [unclear].

WALTER DEVRIES:

Do you have any plans for a statewide, comprehensive land and water
management kind of policy?

Page 15

DAVID PRYOR:

I don't have any kind of plans in that area. Not because I'm not
interested in it. It's just because I haven't made any plans of this
nature. I've let it rest since the campaign. That's my problem, I'm
still kind of . . . going to South Carolina for a few days, Hilton Head.
Never been there before and I'm looking forward to it. [Brief discussion
of North Carolina coast.] We used to go to Nags Head a lot and I always
liked Nags Head.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Yeah, we're south of that about seventy miles. Can I lay one on you?

DAVID PRYOR:

Yeah.

WALTER DEVRIES:

We hear that your nomination, or the fact that certain people supported
you, represented a power elite of the brokers of the state. They made a
decision. Had a meeting, which was reported by the newspapers. [unclear]. You would be the candidate and the
others would not be. Someone charged that was undemocratic. That you
would receive, then, the full benefit of some of the same power brokers
that supported Faubus.

JACK BASS:

Some have even gone so far as to say [unclear] return the old days. Just interested in how you
respond to that.

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, one, I think it's not true. The so-called vote meeting, unquote,
Faubus kept talking about. Was there himself trying to get their
support. He didn't get their support. As a result he lambasted them. I
think out of that meeting . . . there were probably five or six people .
. . I think I probably netted from that meeting $3,000. I sent back
$1,000 or that $3,000 because it was a corporate check. And he never
gave it back. He never found ways and means to give us the money back.
We gave his money back and said we'd like to have it as an individual,
and he never gave it to us as an individual. Anyone who was thrown off
balance or who went to that group and did not get their support

Page 16

and failed to file for governor because they did
not have their support didn't have the guts to run for governor anyway.
They can't elect you and they can't defeat you. They're basically people
who did support Orval Faubus who realized that his day was over. And
they know themselves that their day is about over.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Well, we hear particularly about Bill Thompson. Who, allegedly, was
forced out of the race because if he decided he was going to go his
business would have been hurt.

DAVID PRYOR:

Oh, that's [unclear, suggesting the idea is not
true].

JACK BASS:

No, that it dried up his money supply.

DAVID PRYOR:

That's ridiculous. If Bill was bluffed out by those guys, I can't believe
it. I know Bill and I just don't believe that. It's a little bit comical
for me to hear that Bill Thompson didn't run because of these people. I
would sure hope to believe that I had a much broader base of support
than the few men in that room that particular day. If that was all I was
relying on, I'd be in pretty bad shape. I'd come in with about 1/2% of
the vote.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Well, the argument then goes that because they had, in effect, put you
into office, along with organized labor . . . but these two forces will
be fighting for [unclear] which will put you
in a very untenable position.

DAVID PRYOR:

They're not going to be fighting. They're going to be getting to know
each other. And they're going to be developing an understanding for each
other, I hope. I firmly believe it. We're going to see, I hope,
harmonious relationships being built.

JACK BASS:

Do you have any feelings so far as state financing of public education?
Have you given any thought to that?

DAVID PRYOR:

State financing of public education.

Page 17

JACK BASS:

Rather than have rich school districts and poor school districts . .
.

DAVID PRYOR:

Oh, yeah. I probably will by January but now, frankly, I don't have
enough facts to assess it.

WALTER DEVRIES:

How do you see, if you do see, your style of governing any different from
Bumpers'? Every place we go, you know, we hear he's Mr. Superpolitician.
We won't see him until Monday, which will be our last day here. But that
. . .

DAVID PRYOR:

He is super, he is super. He's been a super governor.

WALTER DEVRIES:

But you see yourself in a moderate tradition? You say you're trying to
bring groups together, working on education. If you have any other goals
or what you'd like to look back on at, accomplished in these four years.
Do you have a certain style of governing?

DAVID PRYOR:

No, I've never been a governor before, so I can't have one. Voted on a
lot of bills and all that business. Twelve years in the legislative end
of it. I don't know how it will be. I imagine each day will be a little
bit different. [unclear]. I'm probably more
prone than Dale Bumpers . . . I'm probably more prone to be a little
more erratic than he is. He was relatively predictable. In many
instances, he was relatively predictable.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Well, let me give you an example. I'm sorry I was so imprecise. But, you
could run an administration very openly with weekly press conferences.
You can go for the kind of freedom of information or sunshine laws like
they have in Florida or so on. But where the administration is much more
open than say a previous administration. Do you understand what I'm
saying?

DAVID PRYOR:

I think it will be a very open, a very, very open administration as far
as the press is concerned. If for no other reason, I know the press guys
pretty well. I used to be one myself. I had a little paper

Page 18

and through that I got to know a lot of them. And through
the legislative work. I've known them and I kind of know them on a
personal basis. That's not to say that they don't jump me from time to
time and I certainly deserve it. But I basically have what I would say
an easy or comfortable relationship with at least most of them. And I
think I know what they're about. I know what they need to do. And I
think as a result I think they will feel free and I will feel free. Now
I don't go around saying now this is off the record, however, so and so
. . . I think when I say something they'll know whether I'm speaking off
or on the record. I'm not guarded, but I think it will be open and
honest. I'm hoping that will happen. Might turn out to be the worse
relationship that ever occurred, but I don't anticipate it. And I'm sure
they will continue, from time to time, to slap my wrist or whatever is
necessary as they must and as they should.

JACK BASS:

One distinct difference between you and Dale Bumpers is that you have
prior governmental experience and legislative experience, both at the
state and federal level. Do you have any strong feeling about the need
for legislative pay increases here?

DAVID PRYOR:

Legislative pay increases, yes I do.

JACK BASS:

And constitutional officials.

DAVID PRYOR:

County officials and constitutional officials. I'm going to support those
increases.

JACK BASS:

Do you see a trend toward more governors coming out of the Congress?
You've got Edwards of Louisiana, Bryan Dorn running in South
Carolina.

DAVID PRYOR:

I knew Edwards real well. Who's running in South Carolina?

JACK BASS:

Bryan Dorn.

DAVID PRYOR:

Yeah, William Jennings Bryan Dorn, sure. I got a telegram from

Page 19

Bryan. Let's see, no, they haven't had the
Democratic nomination yet. That's July, isn't it? And then Westmoreland.
Whoever wins that will have to face Westmoreland.

JACK BASS:

If Westmoreland wins the Republican . . .

DAVID PRYOR:

If he wins the Republican . . . is that a question?

WALTER DEVRIES:

Apparently.

DAVID PRYOR:

Really?

JACK BASS:

Some question. It's not locked up.

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, I think for example Edwin had the same problem I did in the U.S.
Congress. Several of us have. And that is the frustration of not being
able to . . . there's 435 people there and it's just a terribly
frustrating experience. It would have been the year 2003, so said the
computer, when I would have been chairman of the appropriations
committee. And unless you are chairman, or chairman of a subcommittee at
least, you have very little voice in really shaping legislation. And I
think it's just a very frustrating experience for the impatient. And I'm
impatient, Edwin was impatient. The only thing that got John Tunney out
of the House of Representatives was not his great desire to be U.S.
senator but I think his great desire to remove and extricate himself
from the House of Representatives. Because it requires a special type of
person who has great, long-suffering perserverance to withstand what you
go through there in the House. But Bryan Dorn, I don't know exactly his
motives for running because he was, seniority-wise, much higher up the
ladder than any of us. Who else is governor? Let's see. Meskill. He
became governor of Connecticut didn't he? Tom Meskill. Isn't that
right?

WALTER DEVRIES:

Arch Moore.

DAVID PRYOR:

Arch Moore, West Virginia. And I think a lot of things are happening

Page 20

on the state level. We have more money. And I
think you can really feel your input, so to speak, a lot quicker or
easier. You can shape things. The position of being a chief executive. I
don't know why anyone runs for any office. I've always tried to figure
that out.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Yeah, how come you ran—

DAVID PRYOR:

Yeah, we all say . . . you know, we all want to serve the public and all
like this. Well, we all do. We all want to serve the public. I'm not
certain . . . real reason, real motivation is, though. It's the desire
to compete. It's like this man right here, he has a great desire to get
ahead in business. He takes great risks and he's a plunger. But every
now and then he does something that's very satisfying to him. I think
you've got to do what is most personally satisfying to you and politics
is . . .

WALTER DEVRIES:

Can I ask you a 20/20 hindsight question? You've had two years to think
about it, almost. Why did you lose in '72?

DAVID PRYOR:

I could talk on into the night on this. One, I was not supposed to win
it. Everybody asked me why I lost the race. I always asked myself how I
got 49% of the vote. I think we ran a magnifi—well, we ran a
much better race than everyone expected us to run. No one gave me a
chance. No one gave me the remotest hope of winning. I felt I could
win.

[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]

WALTER DEVRIES:

Looking at one point.

DAVID PRYOR:

Looking at one point.

WALTER DEVRIES:

[unclear]

DAVID PRYOR:

A lot of people say that the debate lost the race. This is one thing. I
can't point it to one particular instance. One thing I think caused me
to lose the race is that I don't think that they ever realized

Page 21

that they were in trouble. I don't think the
Senator ever realized he was in trouble. I think the night of the first
primary, when he was in a runoff and I got 42% and he got 46% or
something like that, whatever that was. I think they were in a state of
shock, and I think that because most of the other races were over in the
state, it freed the so-called politicians in the courthouses and
everyone else. And I think they just flat outworked us and outorganized
us. I think the issue of amnesty probably cut off several thousands
votes. I think the prayer issue cut off another several thousand. It was
just one of those strange situations where it just didn't quite all mesh
together. They had a tremendous organization. It was operated from a
position of leverage in four congressional districts where I was
operating from a position of leverage, so to speak, in one congressional
district. He had three-fourths of the state; I had one-fourth of the
state. I didn't even have name recognition in West Memphis. They don't
know who David Pryor was. They don't get Little Rock television. They
don't get the Gazette or Democrat.
They're on Memphis. They didn't know who or what I was. Never heard of
me. In the northern counties I was in the same situation. I thought we
ran a very good race, to be honest with you. But lost. You can always
say, and defeated politicians always say, "Well, they had more money
than we did, they outspent us ten times, and they did this and the
other." Although they did outspend us, that was not the real reason.
They just had organization and people and they knew how to put it
together and I didn't. Had I known how to put it together, I don't know
if I could have. I'm not an organization person to begin with. That's
one of my drawbacks.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Did you have the courthouse support this time?

DAVID PRYOR:

In some courthouses. It would be a good study. I could take a

Page 22

map of the seventy-five counties and pretty well pinpoint
where we had the support and didn't have it. I'd say probably half the
courthouses. Courthouses have always been very suspicious of me because,
you know, the piece of legislation I finally passed in '65 requiring the
county judges to take competitive bids on their purchases. And I always
had a running battle with them on that particular piece of legislation.
It finally passed and they've always been very suspect of me. But I had
the support of some courthouses. In fact, I had the support of some of
the people that I fought hardest in those courthouses. President of the
county judges' association, for example. We were archrivals. Never
enemies, but archrivals during that period of time. And fought each
other like cats and dogs. But remained good friends throughout these
years of fighting. Very close personal friends. And he even had to go
for John McClellan two years ago. But he says, "I hope I have the
opportunity to be for you two years from now." And he did. His
commitment was there and he was there.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Why do you think they voted for you this time?

DAVID PRYOR:

Why? One, I think they thought I could win. That's probably the real
reason.

WALTER DEVRIES:

No, I'm talking about the general voters.

DAVID PRYOR:

Oh, the general voters.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Not the courthouse. I know why they voted for you.

DAVID PRYOR:

And then, two, I think like they feel that I'm accessible.

WALTER DEVRIES:

If you asked the average Democratic voter who voted for you why he did,
what do you think he'd say?

DAVID PRYOR:

Gosh, I don't know.

WALTER DEVRIES:

What do you think he'd say?

DAVID PRYOR:

I would hope that he would say, "He's a good guy and I trust him."

Page 23

That's what I hope they would say. I don't know
whether they'd say that. They may not be that complimentary.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Were there any issues involved you think?

DAVID PRYOR:

Any issues?

WALTER DEVRIES:

Because of your identification with any issues?

DAVID PRYOR:

Not really. Not the average voter.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Was it an anti-Faubus sort of thing? Or anti-old guard organization
vote?

DAVID PRYOR:

Some of it. There was some of everything you're talking about. But
general opinion of the average John Doe, I don't know what he would say.
Some poll or something someone took . . . I never saw it and I don't
believe the voters who don't like him said this . . . they believed me.
I don't know if that's what most of them would say or not. That seemed
to be believability. Seemed to be the strongest of what few
characteristics . . .

WALTER DEVRIES:

That's become the most important characteristics in polling when
measuring politicians today is comparative [unclear]. The three basic things that you can measure on a
politician: integrity, dynamism, and confidence. Integrity now, of the
three clusters, has become most important. Digression.

JACK BASS:

Do you plan to use polling as governor?

DAVID PRYOR:

Nope. I have no plans for it. I'm not saying I won't do it, but I don't
have any plans for it. I've never used it in a campaign.

WALTER DEVRIES:

I think you ought to spell out what you mean by polling. Polling on
issues. An in-depth kind of a feeling as to how people react to certain
kinds of issues. I'm not talking about head-to-head polling for
candidates.

DAVID PRYOR:

I have no plans for it. I think that I'll be able to get a

Page 24

feeling about what people are thinking about it. It's small
state. You can get a . . . it doesn't take you long to get a feeling
about things if you work at it. You know, if you sit up there in the
governor's mansion and the state capital all the time and never leave
it, you're going to be insulated or isolated by your staff and all like
that. If you read the Gazette you're not going to get
a real feeling for what the people are thinking about, I'm sure. Due
respect to the Gazette. It's been one of the . . . I
don't know where this state would be without the Gazette today. But I think I'll be able to get a pretty good idea
of what people are thinking about. I don't plan to use them.

WALTER DEVRIES:

Let me ask you one more thing about Rockefeller. What do you think his
impact was on the state's politics and government?

DAVID PRYOR:

Tremendous. He basically ushered in what you might call the new day. Dale
Bumpers continued that and I hope to continue that. Rockefeller
basically was the beginning of the new Arkansas, politically speaking.
He was responsible for a great deal of change in this state. Not only
change in what you might call legislation or programs or revamping of
the state government. Change in thinking. He was not a good
administrator, so to speak, but his presence was felt. He tried to hire
very competent people. It was a very unselfish type of government that
he sponsored.

JACK BASS:

What difference do you think it's going to make in your own
administration, your having spent that time in Washington, as opposed,
say, if you'd stayed in the legislature, gone to the senate, gone to
become lieutenant governor and then governor. Any?

DAVID PRYOR:

In other words, I'm one of these Washington guys down here trying to run
the state of Arkansas so to speak. That sort of . . .

JACK BASS:

No. Could you do more for Arkansas because of that congressional

Page 25

experience? Than somebody who had just stayed here
in the general assembly and gone up the traditional route, never gone
out of the state?

JACK BASS:

Does it give you a different perspective? That's what I'm really trying
to say.

DAVID PRYOR:

Yes, yes, it does give you a different perspective. It does give you a
different perspective. And I think stamped on the legislative mind of
135 guys out there in the house and senate . . . they will probably be a
little more aware of this than, say, the average voter or the average
citizen. I think, too, I will be more aware of it and I will be more
comfortable because of the experience I've had. One, I know and know
full well that all the answers are not in Washington. I know that as a
fact. I know that just because it comes out of Washington, it does not
make it that knowledgeable or does not make it . . . I don't know . . .
I have a sense of what they're doing when they're doing stuff up there.
I think I know how to put it in its proper perspective or some degree of
knowledge of this.

JACK BASS:

Do you think it will give you a different perspective on the state and
its problems, having been outside?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, the experiences I've had will. Mere travel around the country and
around the world and things like that always give us a little better
perspective. The whole thing is part of a whole educational experience.
We're all learning something about it every day. And I've just tried to
take advantage of those opportunities that I've had. Hopefully I can
translate it into something good.

JACK BASS:

How about implementation of federal programs on the state level? Will it
make any difference, having been in Washington? Or do you think you'd
have done the same thing if you'd just stayed here?

DAVID PRYOR:

Well, I think that . . . I think just from being there, just by

Page 26

osmosis I have a little better understanding of
how it works. But also maybe how you could expedite . . . and through
personal contacts, hopefully, I could take advantage of those
contacts—