So I got the mrs deadlifting yesterday, and it seemed to go ok. She has good flexibility so there wasn't an issue with back rounding, her technique actually seemed pretty solid. She made a few classic newb mistakes like bending her arms on the light sets, but she did pretty good I thought. Worked up to a hard, but not too ugly set of 5 at 50k.

The only thing I'm unsure of is how high she has her hips. She starts the rep with her hips VERY high, and it puts her back almost parallel to the floor. I dunno, I've seen a lot of big strong dudes deadlift this way, so maybe it's fine. I'm just not too sure. I assume she's doing it because it's the most natural way for her to do it, so I don't want to try and mess with it if I don't need to.

So is the hips really high thing a problem or is it fine as long as she keeps her back arched?

But generally if her shoulders are over the bar, with her back in the right position (arched, not flexing under the load), and the weight comes up with hip drive and not back flexion, I'd say it's fine. Does she pull from that position or drop her hips first? If it's the latter, then she'll want to drop them in the first place. If not, it's probably fine. Differently proportioned people will look different on the initial setup.

It definitely looks like she's pulling with her hips, which is why I wasn't keen to try and correct it without knowing for sure it was definitely a problem. Form didn't really change too much as she got to her top set either so I dunno, she's probably fine.

Mark is a smart, personable individual. I use to lift and referee with Mark. And now the butt...

However, some of the information on deadlift Mark provides is incorrect.

Mark continues to perpetuate the myth that deadlift is broken off the floor in a Conventional Deadlift with leg drive. This is simply not true unless you are a Sumo Deadlifter.

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But generally if her shoulders are over the bar, with her back in the right position (arched, not flexing under the load), and the weight comes up with hip drive and not back flexion,

Let me once more reiterate that in a Conventional Deadlift the back breaks the weight off the floor.

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Does she pull from that position or drop her hips first? If it's the latter, then she'll want to drop them in the first place. If not, it's probably fine. Differently proportioned people will look different on the initial setup.

Many lifters bob up and down with their hips prior to pulling the weight off the floor. However, once the high hip position is reached, the lower back and hamstrings break the weight off the floor.

Pushing The Bar

The myth that the pushing the legs into the platform breaks the weight off the floor in the deadlift is one that continues to be kept alive.

McLaughlin

Here again is what McLaughin research found.

"Now, although most people probably think the initial drive off the floor is all legs, it is clearly done primarily by the back."

"Kuc, Kazmaier, and Anello use the back first..."

"I was talking to Lamar Gant this week here at Auburn, and he said that he felt years ago his leg drive was strong off the floor, but in recent years he felt his back pulling more at the start."

"This is probably a reason for the recent craze over stiff-leg deadlifts. They simply develop more back strength for the starting position." ("Biomechancis Of Powerlifting--The Deadlift," Dr Tom McLaughlin-Director/Biomechanics Labratory/Auburn University/PLUSA 7/81)

But generally if her shoulders are over the bar, with her back in the right position (arched, not flexing under the load), and the weight comes up with hip drive and not back flexion,

Let me once more reiterate that in a Conventional Deadlift the back breaks the weight off the floor.

. . . via back flexion?

I'm saying, don't do that. Are you say, yes, you should?

It sounds more like you're using my comment as a springboard to argue that Mark Rippotoe is incorrect about which muscle is involved in the initial part of the pull, that it's hamstrings and back. But I'm saying, don't flex the spine - don't move it at all, just lock it into place and keep it there - and you are okay. If I'm wrong, and you should flex the spine, I'd really like to know why.

I think you lose your glutes (and quads) when this happens. If the spine is in neutral, then it's not dangerous but I don't think it's efficient.

I think the hips should be below the shoulders, how much below the shoulders is individual, though.

Also, if you think about it, if someone starts with lower hips, and when the pull starts the hips shoot before anything else, this is commonly considered a problem. I don't see how starting in this position makes it any more acceptable.

This problem is a lot more common with women than men, due to them having a lot more flexibility.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with Kenny. Cueing someone to push the floor way isn't necessarily going to change the order in which muscles fire. Some people are just "too much" back. You still need "some" leg drive. If you don't have enough, you'll need to think about leg drive more than others who don't have this problem.

I see pushing the floor as a coaching cue and I don't think coaching cues relate accurately to what muscles are working and when. They're just a way to keep your technique sweet. I often use the cue, "tickle monster" with 2 girls I train on a saturday, for example (cues them to fire up the lats during the set up of a deadlift). Whatever gets the job done, ya know.

Anyway, when she is set up, where is the bar in relation to her shins? Generally when people with this issue set up, the bar is an inch or 2 away from the shins. This is perfect, because all you need to do is tell them to squeeze the bar, pull the chest up, and pull the shins into contact with the bar. This will simultaneously take some slack out the bar, making her less likely to jerk the weight off the floor. It will also make her "fall back" on the bar, getting the shoulders more behind/over the bar rather than in front. Oh, and it'll bring the hips below the shoulders. From what I remember, she has quite long legs and is most likely going to have a naturally higher hip position than a lot of people. High hips are ok, just get them below the shoulders.

Now the issue is once she starts pulling, her hips will shoot back into that high position anyway, and this is where the right coaching cue is going to help her maintain that position.

Teach her to brace and take her air, because this is important for allowing your legs and back to work in unison. You need a solid core/torse. If it's soft things will break down.

I like to take time teaching people in front of a mirror how to brace and a take a "belly breath". And I just say that's what "big air/belly" means.

So, she's set up, you've got her to pull herself into the bar, you tell her to get a big belly. Then I would definitely cue to "push the floor away". She' still going to drive the chest back just as much, because she obviously naturally does this anyway. But pushing the floor away is going to maintain that stronger position, bring the quads in and allow the hips to move forward/extend in unison with the chest moving back and up (back extension).

Ideally in a deadlift the back will extend WITH the hips extending. I'm sure the back does work more at the start but you still need to ensure the legs/hips are working as much they should.

Coaching is quite individual. For example, some people want to squat the deadlift up, and asking them to push the floor away can make things worse (so i this case I would agree with Kenny), so i'm also not saying everyone should focus on pushing the floor. With these people you just get them closer to bar, actually cue them to get higher hips, and focus more on pulling the chest up/back. It always "depends".

I usually go for an elevated deadlift at first. As I think you know I start people on RDL's to teach the deadlift. I do this until they can RDL a big plate each side. At this point, they actually have the ability to get into the ideal starting position and all you're missing is, "the set up".

The set up is why you get people who can smash RDL's perfectly but, ask them to start on the floor and it's horrible.

So, I elevate the bar on 4-5 inch steps purely for simplicity. It's just easier to learn the set up from here. Might make life easier for you.

The mindset needed for ripping a dead weight off the floor can be tough for people, too, and throw them off. Especially women*. Elevating the bar makes life easier for this, too.

*I sound like i'm giving women a hard time but I actually find women easier to coach than men.

This overload the hamstrings and glutes, taking the lower back out of the equation.

You don't need a machine. You need a loading pin, belt and boxes to stand on.

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I see pushing the floor as a coaching cue and I don't think coaching cues relate accurately to what muscles are working and when.

Politically Incorrect

I will surely burn in hell for this.

Cueing someone with the wrong information amount to telling someone NO but when you mean YES.

Movie Example

In the movie, "What Planet Are You From?" Garry Schandling is an alien. Annette Bening is a regular woman. They become girl friend and boy friend.

After a fight, Annette tell Garry to leave the room. Garry start to walk out.

Annette want to know what he doing. He say that he is leaving.

She then tell him, "Leave the room mean come hold me"!!!

You push the floor away cueing is no different.

Information OVERLOAD

Research back up common sense on this. Overloading individuals with too much information/too much cueing decrease performance.

Research shows learning is more effective when you ONLY give them ONE cue to think about.

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So, she's set up, you've got her to pull herself into the bar, you tell her to get a big belly. Then I would definitely cue to "push the floor away". She' still going to drive the chest back just as much, because she obviously naturally does this anyway. But pushing the floor away is going to maintain that stronger position, bring the quads in and allow the hips to move forward/extend in unison with the chest moving back and up (back extension).

Cueing an individual with the incorrect information is counter productive.

What you want is a boxing "One-Two" combination. The back and hamstring fire, then the hip drive with the legs kick in.

Your "push the floor away" is programming them to think leg first then..., which make it confusining for the lifter.

It like the scene from the movie. I want you to focus on "pushing the floor away" but in reality, you really need to start the movemeent with the lower back and hamstrings.

What I just wrote confused me. So, how sane does that sound to the lifter you are working with?

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Coaching is quite individual. For example, some people want to squat the deadlift up, and asking them to push the floor away can make things worse (so i this case I would agree with Kenny), so i'm also not saying everyone should focus on pushing the floor.

I apperciate that.

However, NO one should be programmed think "push the floor away" in a deadlift.

The most effective method of insuring "too much" back is not used is very simple.

Strength the leg/hip drive and it will happen.

However, the do to improper technique they will probably re-learn how to deadlift.

Start with Contreras' article. Read them a few times and think about it.

Kenny Croxdale[/color]

Yeah, read in the past and re-read it just now. I stand corrected, some people do want to flex their spine under a load. I should have been more specific, because I'm talking solely about lumbar flexion - I don't care if the upper back flexes under a load. From here on, I'm talking primarily about lumbar flexion.

This is where I get hung up:

"As mentioned, the safest spinal posture is a neutral position, with no incidents of flexion or hyperextension in any segments. However, studies show that powerlifters flex their spines considerably, but they avoid injury simply because they avoid end-ranges of lumbar flexion."

so, the safest position is neutral, but some people avoid injury by flexing in a safe zone.

and

"Of course, it's nearly impossible to consciously control the spine at the segmental level during heavy deadlifting, but just ensure that you "lock up" your lumbar spine plenty shy of full flexion."

and

"Furthermore, if you examine where most of the rounding occurs in powerlifters, a vast majority takes place in the upper back (the thoracic spine), and this strategy is safer compared to the other way around (mostly lumbar rounding)."

So the safest way to do it is not the flex the spine under a load. It's possible to hurt yourself if you do it wrong. You have to learn to do it right, while under a load. And you really want to avoid full flexion of your lumbar spine. Knowing where to stop takes practice and experience, according to the article.

I'm not a powerlifting coach, Kenny, but I coach a lot of older lifters who just want to get in shape. It sounds like the OP's wife is in that camp. If she wants to compete, then whatever gets the heaviest bar up off the floor in a legal fashion is okay, even if there might be a potential injury tradeoff now or later and a learning curve to the lifts. If she doesn't, why use rounded-back lifting? Why teach anything except a neutral spine and use sub-maximal loads on the deadlift, and train upper back flexion in exercises that don't potentially get unwanted limbar flexion?

They are going to try to initial the drive with their leg because that is what you've told them to do.

That makes no sense.[/color]

I want them to drive more with their legs because in that situation, they don't drive enough with their legs.

I would rather they used "too much legs" with a good back position than "driving with the back like they're supposed to according to mclaughin" and a poor back position.

As you've quoted many times yourself, "perfect practice makes perfect".

I don't coach a rounded back lift.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

The reason someone uses "too much" back is because have super strong lower back and weak legs.

No matter how much they think or try to employ more leg drive it's NOT going to happen with weak legs.

You can perform "Leg Drive" Deadlifts all day long with light to modereate loads. However, in due or die deadlifts you survival mechanism kicks in to insure success at all cost.

I don't have clients perform "do or die" deadlifts, apart from the one who done the competition with me, who I made a training partner rather than a client. This is her, actually - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtuK08FQTsI I think that's her 140kg. Easy. When she started with me she could pull a messy 60KG. Pushing the floor doesn't seem to have done much harm, but it was one of the initial technique issues we worked on.

Even then, her do or die lift wasn't in the gym, it was in competition (even then we played it safe - that pull was a scottish a record). Outside of powerlifting, I don't see any value in testing your true 1RM.

Bare in mind Bobs g/f is not a powerlifter.

Again, "perfect practice makes perfect". If technique breaks down at 100KG, but they can lift 130KG with horrible form, then I won't let them go over 100KG. In my opinion, by doing this, you are targeting your weak links by limiting load to what you lift with good technique. This, along with good assistance exercises do build your weak links - in this case the legs and hips - is the approach I prefer to take.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Prescribed Leg ONLY Movements

1) Leg Press. I am not a fan of the Leg Press one of it greatest beneifts is that has been shown increase the deadlift by strengthening the legs.

Contreras goes into this in his "Deadlift 5 Plate Like Champion" article.

Perform a Quater Leg Press.

Gene Bell (a great deadlifter) in an Powerlifting USA interview, over 20 yeara ago, was ask how much the Leg Press helped his Squat. Bell replied it increased my deadlift but not my squat.

How can you possibly utilise your new found leg pressing strength if you pull with hiked up hips and a rounded back? There's no available leg drive. You've basically skipped that part of the ROM.

Then you recommend the leg press, which is exactly the action I want people to do to get more leg drive...

I still want them to be "all back", I just don't want them to be "no legs". I want them to be "all back and legs". If there's no legs i'll encourage more legs until it's fixed. They don't focus on it forever.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

2) Quarter Squats. This movement emulates the quater squat starting drive position in a deadlift, breaking it off the floor.

3) Belt Squats. This movement allows you take the lower back out of the equation and completely overload the legs. Perform them from a quarter squat "Deadlift" position.

4) Quarter Step Ups. This is just another variation of Quater Squats, Quater Belt Squats and the Leg Press.

This overload the hamstrings and glutes, taking the lower back out of the equation.

You don't need a machine. You need a loading pin, belt and boxes to stand on. [/color]

On top of these recommendations, would you just allow the lifter to pull with crap technique when they were actually deadlifting? Or would they stop deadlifting until they strengthened the weak link? Or are you saying, as I think Peter was trying to ask, that you encourage people to lift with a rounded back?

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Cueing someone with the wrong information amount to telling someone NO but when you mean YES.

I disagree with this. If you seen someone deadlift - lets say me and the client are in mute and you can't hear us - and, when it gets heavy the client hikes the hips up (before anything else), rounds the back and pulls that way. Then, I give them a few coaching cues and you see them lift the same weight with perfect form and make it look lighter. Wouldn't you assume I told the correct thing?

I have this specific cue on video, before (showing technique break down), during (me filming and coaching) and will have the "after" video soon. In the "during" video you blatantly see the weight look easier with better form when the changes are made. In the after video you're going to see around 50lbs more get lifted with better form (he's already doubles 20lbs more with perfect form). The technique issues we have been working on are starting with the hips lower, pushing the floor away, and "dragging the bar up the legs". Push the floor away was the initial focus.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Research shows learning is more effective when you ONLY give them ONE cue to think about.[/color]

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So, she's set up, you've got her to pull herself into the bar, you tell her to get a big belly. Then I would definitely cue to "push the floor away". She' still going to drive the chest back just as much, because she obviously naturally does this anyway. But pushing the floor away is going to maintain that stronger position, bring the quads in and allow the hips to move forward/extend in unison with the chest moving back and up (back extension).

I'm assuming this isn't clear. There's only one coaching cue in this paragraph - "push the floor away".

That's one coaching cue during the rep. I teach the set up before I coach the lift which is part of what I was recommending. Makes life easier/simpler. When I coach the lift it's one cue at a time.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

[color=#000080]Cueing an individual with the incorrect information is counter productive.

What you want is a boxing "One-Two" combination. The back and hamstring fire, then the hip drive with the legs kick in.

How do you tell a client to fire the back and hamstrings then bring the hips and legs in?

Why not just cue them in whatever way makes them lift with good technique? Won't good technique give us the correct muscle-firing-sequence? If it doesn't, does it even matter? Isn't the end goal in a coaching session to achieve good or better technique? If not, then what's the point in the coach? Personally I don't have an EMG machine to hook up to clients, and I don't put all my trust in EMG data anyway. I just want a good, strong, and especially safe lift.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Your "push the floor away" is programming them to think leg first then..., which make it confusining for the lifter.

Most people I deal with have no idea about muscle-firing-sequencing. I would probably pass it out in shock if a client retorted my cue with, "but, isn't that incorrect muscle-firing sequence? Aren't the back and hamstrings supposed to kick in first, THEN the hips?". If the client knows this, they probably don't need me...

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

However, NO one should be programmed think "push the floor away" in a deadlift.

The most effective method of insuring "too much" back is not used is very simple.

Strength the leg/hip drive and it will happen.

We'll most likely need to agree to disagree. When I have that video made i'll be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts, though.

Also, research done on powerlifters is not necessarily representative of anyone else who should deadlift.

For powerlifters the priority is weight on the bar. Sacrifices are made purely for numbers.

For anyone else, they're just trying to improve performance in a sport, life, just get a training effect or a combination of all. Really, they're training and strengthening their ability to "hip-hinge" rather than deadlift as much as possible. When the hips stop hinging and the back starts hinging instead, we lose the benefit and increase the risk.

Also, I had read about it before but never realised just how true it is - competition deadlifts are generally NOT good examples of deadlifting. It's at the end of a long day, after 3 hard squat attemps (and warm ups), trying to arch in the bench and maxing the bench, too, then you need to deadlift.

I'm as much as a technique nazi as they come and even I thought, "i don't care, i'm just going to grab the bar and pull!" when it came to deadlifting. Also, I couldn't even get into a propper arch at the bottom of my deadlift because my hip flexors would cramp up.

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