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They've been very busy releasing new hardware over that time period, so I expect samples have taken a back seat - and they're not exactly a direct contributor to the bottom line.

However, a lot of people have been clamoring for new Rhodes samples as competitors have edged ahead with the detail and size of their EP offerings. And although there is a good selection of acoustic grands and uprights, it would be nice to have some that address perceptions of "thinness" and limited timbre variation.

I suspect that the frustration of owners who bought on the basis of the "ever-expanding" library is beginning to bleed over into the minds of potential purchasers, who may think twice before paying a premium price if they believe that the Nord model is shifting towards that of the standard "big three."

Having previously owned the NP (v1) and the Electro 3, I recently reverted to the old Nord Electro 2 rather than invest in the new Electro 4 or Piano 2, because I felt that too little had changed in the Nord camp - no new piano or EP samples and no improved action.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

A little OT, but I'm beginning to wonder whether, with the NP2 at $3k, it wouldn't be better to buy the little 25lbs Yamaha P-105 (at$600) for its new CF samples, and use it for a couple of years - then swap it for whatever new flavor appears on the shelves at that time. If the action's halfway decent, it might do the job just as well.

Of course, it's not red.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

They've been very busy releasing new hardware over that time period, so I expect samples have taken a back seat

I don't know about that correlation... I doubt the people who do instrument sampling are the same people who design the hardware or OS, so I would be surprised if it's the same people who are just too busy on other things. Though also, I think some (all?) of the actual instrument sampling is done in cooperation with outside vendors, so it could also have to do with those companies' schedules or their own decisions about what to produce, or I guess to get back to your point, how much money Nord wants to throw that direction while they may also be investing in tooling for new models. So... maybe. ;-)

Originally Posted By: voxpops

Having previously owned the NP (v1) and the Electro 3, I recently reverted to the old Nord Electro 2 rather than invest in the new Electro 4 or Piano 2, because I felt that too little had changed in the Nord camp - no new piano or EP samples and no improved action.

To me, the huge advantage of the E3 over the E2 is access to the sample library, though I also think the organ sound is notably improved. Why did you switch from an E3 to an E2? I understand, E3 had no better pianos, but what advantage would the E2 have, if the E3 has the same pianos plus samples and better organ? Was it a cost decision or something else?

A little OT, but I'm beginning to wonder whether, with the NP2 at $3k, it wouldn't be better to buy the little 25lbs Yamaha P-105 (at$600) for its new CF samples, and use it for a couple of years - then swap it for whatever new flavor appears on the shelves at that time. If the action's halfway decent, it might do the job just as well.

Of course, it's not red.

completely buy this idea. much more exciting stuff going on in the low end vs the high and at the moment. you are almost being paid to wait. Maybe NAMM brings out an upgraded Yamaha P-155 with the CF samples and the somewhat heavier action

I thought it was interesting in another thread PianoworksATL called the PX-350 a category killer. Since he's a dealer he ought to know.

To me, the huge advantage of the E3 over the E2 is access to the sample library, though I also think the organ sound is notably improved. Why did you switch from an E3 to an E2? I understand, E3 had no better pianos, but what advantage would the E2 have, if the E3 has the same pianos plus samples and better organ? Was it a cost decision or something else?

When I had the E3, I was never really wowed by it. Sure, the sample library was interesting, but I had little use for it, particularly given the extremely limited filter controls. Yes, the organ sound was better, and the pianos (both EP and AP) had more variety and detail, but the sound was somehow more "plasticky" to me. But the big downer was the interface. The E2 is a joy to use live. I have all my basic presets stored on A1 to A7 - right there in front of me - with A8 set up to control Minimax on my Plugiator via MIDI. I just love the fact there's a proper depth control for the effects, and the sweepable presence control is very useful.

With regard to the organ sound, the Numa Organ has a more authentic, though more muted/mellow, B3 sound; the E2 is much more in-yer-face. The percussion is lacking and the CV is a little over-baked, but for rock contexts it works well, and it makes me smile! I never really warmed to the E3's "improved" organ/rotary with adjustable leakage, as it was more polite without really feeling that much more authentic IMO. The E2's Wurli and Clav are as good as those in the E3, and the Rhodes samples are a little more grungy. Generally, the APs are very poor, although the number 5 Yamaha Grand and number 6 Steinway are usable at a pinch - but I would never play AP from any Electro unless it had the hammer action keyboard. And talking of action, I find the E2's much more playable than the E3's for some reason.

Price was a consideration. I picked up the NE2 73 for $750 (with gig bag) - that's a lot of fun for a relatively low outlay. For me to buy an E4 73, I'd have to spend $2.5k, and then pay another $300 for drawbars on top of that, as I can't cope with those buttons. And I certainly couldn't justify keeping the Numa as well, which is still a better organ IMO. And, unless Nord released new EP samples, I'd still not have a Rhodes which could challenge the latest Korg offerings, or even be any better than those in the MP6 or Numa Piano (though the Electro's do have more variety).

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

Oh of course, the E3 does have better pianos than the E2 as well, how could I forget?? ;-) But yes, I can see where the E2 had some interface/ergonomic advantages.

Yeah, the percussion is one of the ways the E2 organ bugged me, that I thought was really improved on the E3. Though unlike you, I found the Leslie sim to be an improvement on the E3 as well.

You're not the first to mention the E2 action being better than the E3, I forgot about that. I never played them side by side, but I'm actually not surprised, as I was never really bothered by the E2 action, but I find the E3 action decidedly too springy. I thought maybe I had just gotten fussier in my old age, but maybe not!

Since the Nord doesn't have additional HEAVY settings, I find that the Velocity curve on all is a little the high side except for Studio Grand 2. When I comp on Studio Grand 2 it feels closer to the weight of my grand. I have to be super super light on Grand Lady D since it can get harsh very quickly.

The problem is that no one sample does the job. Grand Lady D has the thickest tone and most sustain but over sensitive velocity.

The rest is too thin in the C6 and up range.

Studio Grand 2 has probably the least issues but I end up switching between this and Grand Lady D. The for single line solos and then Studio 2 for anything with dense harmonies.

So given that these are my faves, I concur with Dave that these would be the best to have XL samples.

I just loaded the Bright XL to see if it makes a difference but I don't like the velocity response of this too. I suppose all of these could be fixed with a programmed offset to the velocity level. I wonder why that's such a difficult thing to implement. It could be made global. I never use the other touch sensitivity levels. Always at heaviest.

As a Nord Piano owner I agree entirely with jazzwee. The sounds are just too "hot" at low velocities. Grand Lady is particularly bad in this respect and I there's something about the tonality of that piano that doesn't do it for me (upper mids are very thin sounding).

The Bosendorfer has a really unpleasant whining nasal quality in the mids/upper mids.

Studio Grand 2 is by far my favourite but there's a couple of really twangy notes at higher velocities in the octave above middle C.

The Bright Grand I find genuinely much much too bold and it is unusable for me.

The original Steinway pianos (close and ambient) are all but useless and have a very odd midrange, particularly the close-mic'd version.

Studio Grand 1 I think is a good alternative to using one of the (overly characterful) uprights. It has the bass of a grand but lots of quirks (that of course make it unsuitable for most work).

The uprights are all too boxy and lack dynamic/timbral change. They are emulating crappy, beaten-up uprights, not good ones!

And almost all the voices completely run out of puff in the top two octaves - very feeble and weak sounding.

Other than all that it is perfect!

All that said I still find it is an engaging piece of kit due to the real variety on offer. But there really NEEDS to be a heavier velocity curve and the samples at low velocities need some serious refinement on a couple of the pianos. I've just put the Nord away and retrieved the Kawai MP10 from the cupboard. It reminded me just how crappy the Nord's action is in comparison. I think there'd be a market for a deluxe Nord Piano with a really decent action and some improvements/additions to the piano samples and some bigger EPs. Scrap the harpsichords, Clavinets and electric grands!

Yes I know. It is a winning combination but you have to use the Nord pedal connected directly to it. There's some problem using the MP10's pedal through it to Nord via MIDI (although I can't remember what it is!).

It's just the mess/hassle. I could get an upper tier addition for the Roland KS-G8 stand I use I suppose for the Nord. But I don't like that multi-tier look in the home.

But I'm also waiting for NAMM.....be interesting to see what turns up. A soundless decent controller from Kawai perhaps? And maybe Yamaha will actually produce something new, i.e., using NEW technology.

I'm also waiting for some decent user feedback about Physis Piano.

Ideally I'd keep the Kawai action and mate it to something nice sound-wise. There's the new Roland module with SN pianos onboard (but whilst I acknowledge their technical superiority I just don't like them very much). Could use a Kronos rack right now!

Well, the main advantage of the Nord is the weight for giggers. No alternative yet at this level.

I certainly still prefer Nord to Roland/Yamaha choices but when there are specific things we know can be improved and it's only software, one can assume it's doable. One of the reasons we buy a Nord is that it can be updated through software.

For example, on the Piano samples, there's a consistent thinness on the top on most samples. I'm going to guess that that's a mic positioning issue? But maybe some re-processing might resolve it.

Adjusting velocity curves (so samples are consistent) seem also to be just moving samples around. Or as I've mentioned, just a global offset setting to velocity.

So there's a consistency in everyone's story. Are we that unusual? Surely Clavia has heard this right? I'm just surprised we got to the NP2 and no change in the velocity story.

I'm not holding my breath. The trend has been to create flagships that practically no working keyboard player can haul on a regular basis, and dumbed down lighter models that leave you feeling, if not cheated, at least slightly disappointed.

Is there no manufacturer prepared to marry their best technology with a lightweight chassis, intuitive interface and well-designed action? Kawai shields their top samples like Gollum with his "precious;" Roland makes their slabs with EPs that leave you cringing, just so that you'll shell out for their stage models and give them free advertising when the joystick pokes out of the back of your car or gives the drummer complimentary earwax removal. And Yamaha dribbles out their 1990s technology drip by minuscule drip, and laughs like a mad scientist while you try to penetrate their arcane architecture. Lord! I can understand why people end up with IKEA, sorry, Nord.

_________________________"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

Yeah all their piano samples thin out in the higher registers...even the XL.

I loaded the Bright XL yesterday hoping the thinness wasn't there (actually because of your comments, Dave). But NOW you tell me. LOL. I'm still going to stick with Studio 2.

I was playing blues one time and I didn't realize I was on the Bose patch. Then I did some Trills and such in the high registers and the sound is practically FADED. No matter how hard I hit, it just ran out of spunk. And I'm competing with a guitar here. So I'm forced to huddle in the middle registers.

I should have had the presence of mind to switch the patch to Lady D but it was in the middle of the solo when I noticed it.

Sigh--every DP has a problem.

One other thing on the Nord. Obviously I bought this understanding that the Fatar keyboard isn't going to be the best in class. But I've been irked by too much springy upweight. Even if it's light, a real piano always has a little friction going up so you don't feel as much of a push back on the return (from felt bushings).

So these DP's are like constantly relearning on a different instrument. Just so frustrating.

Just no alternative though. I have enough problems lugging 40lbs+bag. No heavier than this.

I'm not holding my breath. The trend has been to create flagships that practically no working keyboard player can haul on a regular basis, and dumbed down lighter models that leave you feeling, if not cheated, at least slightly disappointed.

Is there no manufacturer prepared to marry their best technology with a lightweight chassis, intuitive interface and well-designed action? Kawai shields their top samples like Gollum with his "precious;" Roland makes their slabs with EPs that leave you cringing, just so that you'll shell out for their stage models and give them free advertising when the joystick pokes out of the back of your car or gives the drummer complimentary earwax removal. And Yamaha dribbles out their 1990s technology drip by minuscule drip, and laughs like a mad scientist while you try to penetrate their arcane architecture. Lord! I can understand why people end up with IKEA, sorry, Nord.

I'm pretty much at peace with it overall though. After a while you just have to resign yourself to--DPs are what they are. Just get something that will work for you, put your energy into practicing and try not to stress over which *non-piano* is the best.

Wise words - I need to try and feel the same. It's hard though. My modest little upright shows me every day how far even the best digitals still have to go.

I'm not holding my breath. The trend has been to create flagships that practically no working keyboard player can haul on a regular basis, and dumbed down lighter models that leave you feeling, if not cheated, at least slightly disappointed.

Is there no manufacturer prepared to marry their best technology with a lightweight chassis, intuitive interface and well-designed action? Kawai shields their top samples like Gollum with his "precious;" Roland makes their slabs with EPs that leave you cringing, just so that you'll shell out for their stage models and give them free advertising when the joystick pokes out of the back of your car or gives the drummer complimentary earwax removal. And Yamaha dribbles out their 1990s technology drip by minuscule drip, and laughs like a mad scientist while you try to penetrate their arcane architecture. Lord! I can understand why people end up with IKEA, sorry, Nord.