I just wanted to re-quote this because it still makes me smile. "Chaxers" or whatever would be way better than "Breastrigger" (I think it's supposed to be one silly compound word, based on the katakana).

Also, DUKE ASS TIGER is my favorite too. There was a sweet-ass vinyl or statue or something of him a few years ago.

Furthermore, the Maz SKL opening had better feature the word "SKULL!!!" loudly and frequently. There's a high bar set for them by "Fire Wars" and this would be a great place to start.

That doublas and Garada sort of remind me of the Fewtures steampunk designs...somewhat. I'll wait til I see the show before I totally crush it. I dont mind a "skulled" up tough guy Maz. Its different in some ways that I at least
want to watch the anime. The toys will be another story unless they stop right at mazinkaiser. I kinda like those "Main bad guys" giant horns and all.

Ooff, and the goon's guts go a splashing all over the Syaka-type fembot pilot..Yikes, NOT a kiddie robot show!

OK, so there's TWO of the pilot guys in the skull pilder driving Mazinkaiser?
And they have a rotating pilot seat dealie, to switch between the controls, doing their special attack moves at different times? Weird, but I guess they gotta do something different. Kabuto doesn't get all the fun to himself now.

I've never been a big fan of robots piloted by multiple people...with few exceptions like Getter, Dairugger, and some sentai. I guess this show could be interesting if the two pilots are fleshed-out and have well-developed personalities (I'm thinking, like, Starsky & Hutch piloting a super robot). But as it stands now, they both seem like friggin' clones of each other. Generic "Japan cool" psychopath badasses. How dull.

As far as things like characterization, my standards for super-robot/action-driven anime are so low that as long as these two yahoos aren't serial rapists or 14-year-old emo boys or underaged big-titted chicks, I'm fine. Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust was awesome, and there wasn't a single fleshed-out or non-stereotypical character in that film.

Psychopathic badasses ain't nothing new, but the idea of the two of them jostling for control in that big engine of destruction might be interesting. If they actually do turn out to be worse than the bad guys, that would be interesting, but they'll probably be given multiple heroic opportunities.

I guess my standards are higher. HA! I never get to say that! :P Nah, but I think it's from becoming jaded as fuck...certainly not because I prefer Grey Poupon to French's Mustard.

Cartoon action/violence has gotten kinda uninteresting to me (simply because I've seen it all...a hundred times). I mean, I can dig it...but I need more. Insipid characters and hyper-recycled plot are plenty to kill a show for me...even if it IS giant robots bashing the shit outta each other.

Perfect counterpoint: that Shooboomagoo Titan Tartakovsky show. Just caught the first ep (I think) last night. Action was aiight, I guess. Characters were lukewarm. Plot...who knows. But the thing is, it was different. Sure, I have no clue if it will pan out into a solid offering...or wither into banality...but part of me is genuinely *interested* to see.

Like, with Shin Mazinger, I coulda written the plot after the 3rd episode. I expect nothing different from SKL. Thus...I'm far more apt to check out another episode of Titan than I am to bother downloading SKL.

As one of the mindless cretins entertained by Gurren Lagann, I have to say that the preview for SKL pretty much left me with the same impression as Sanjeev.

As a barbaric minion of evil bears down on her mecha what is the pilot's response?

"Eyaaaaa"!!!

Really?

It's bad enough you got the barely effective girl squad dressed like they should be in a production of Caligula but they are rape fodder while piloting giant robots and get splattered with gore for being in the way while real men pose and grimace menacingly.

I just looked at that preview again, where those strippers and pole dancers in the beginning flashes?

Hmmmm... watched the trailer. I love the designs, and having an army real tech-ey Garadas and Doublases is great, since those are the only two bad guys we want to see anyway. The action had some heft, and the uncalled for gunplay was fun. Shit just got real weird when the broad-bots showed up tho.

Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perfect counterpoint: that Shooboomagoo Titan
> Tartakovsky show. Just caught the first ep (I
> think) last night. Action was aiight, I guess.
> Characters were lukewarm. Plot...who knows. But
> the thing is, it was different. Sure, I have no
> clue if it will pan out into a solid offering...or
> wither into banality...but part of me is genuinely
> *interested* to see.
>
I was with you up until about here. I mean, even though all we've seen so far is a trailer, which especially for this genre is by nature not designed to really reveal anything other than wham-bam-explosions, I'm totally on board with the presumption that SKL will likely feature a really generic story with very generic characters.

But I just checked out the first ep of Shooboomagoo Titan, and honestly I was pretty bored. There was not a single feature in that show that was not derivative--intentional or otherwise. Even the humor was pretty flat. Let's see:

--Royalty in exile and on the run; parent monarch betrayed
--Kids with secret powers in high school
--Giant Robots (the worst part is they even cribbed some of the transformation features from that dreaded Godannar show)
--Bushy-bearded general in pursuit (Is it General Ross?)
--Monster of the week

So I guess I'm just surprised at why this show would get a free pass for the cliched qualities that are critiqued in anime super robot shows (and I'm by no means defending generic storylines and characters). The appeal of Shooboomagoo is purely nostalgic as well, in that it tickles those old familiar feelings in the same way that Mazinkaiser is doing. The difference is that Shooboomagoo does it in a more innocent, less stylized, less hyperbolized and more direct way, which may be why it's easier to accept and why it feels "better," because everything these days is exaggerated and hyper-violent and it's the retro sensibility that feels more "unique." (Though apparently, the way to my heart is cheaply bought--just give me smooth, detailed animation and stylized mecha violence.) But really, it's all about finding ways to access the feelings evoked by that initial period of seeing Tetsujin 28 or Giant Robo or whatever it was that was your introduction, and if there happens to be a smidge of humor or self-awareness in the recreation, then that's just gravy.

I think ultimately what we're discussing is the limitations of this genre in general. I should have mentioned that my standards for super robot anime are low in part because this genre, like the American superhero genre (from which Shooboomagoo also heavily borrows), was self-constrained to begin with, the two of them birthed as childish wish fulfillment/war propaganda and evolving into childish wish fulfillment/fan wanking. So really, it's not like there's a choice involved on my part, as far as what to expect.

I mean, if we're going to talk about originality in this genre, can anyone name a single super robot anime that has had any lasting artistic value as far as story, emotions, character?

The only one I can think of that managed to do anything original, as opposed to simply stretching and playing with preexisting conditions, was Evangelion, for which I have incredibly mixed feelings. Otherwise, I'm stumped. I think when we do talk about a super-robot show doing something new, it's usually some idiosyncratic element we fancy that's subservient to a more traditional and rigid form/structure.

Anyway, there was a really thoughtful article about the repetitive, dessicated quality of American superhero films as a genre that I think is totally appropriate here: [www.salon.com]

gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I guess I'm just surprised at why this show
> would get a free pass for the cliched qualities
> that are critiqued in anime super robot shows (and
> I'm by no means defending generic storylines and
> characters). The appeal of Shooboomagoo is purely
> nostalgic as well, in that it tickles those old
> familiar feelings in the same way that Mazinkaiser
> is doing. The difference is that Shooboomagoo does
> it in a more innocent, less stylized, less
> hyperbolized and more direct way, which may be why
> it's easier to accept and why it feels "better,"
> because everything these days is exaggerated and
> hyper-violent and it's the retro sensibility that
> feels more "unique."

I think you accurately addressed your own surprise. But you also left out the role of aesthetics, though to some degree that falls under the hyperbole banner. Shomobogan and Gothzinger are both exceptionally stylized, though in vastly different directions.

The color palate, line weight, backdrops, and perspectives in Shumoboigadon are pushing the visual presentation in a way that is rarely seen. Or maybe has never been seen before in that combination. Taken individually certain elements purposefully hearken the 1970s Super Robot aesthetics (which were themselves drawn from 1940/50s animation in general) while also calling in some of the 1980s as well. So the pieces with which they start are not unique. But the toolkit they use to assemble them is. The synthesis is more refined and sophisticated while the final product is elegantly uncluttered and far more cinematic than anything yet. Skazinger is the opposite. The color palate, lines, and camera angles are well worn. The action and character tropes are upped by making them visually busier. It's typically cluttered and feels like the usual made-for-the-small-screen gunk that's been coming down the pipe for years. Take whatever you've been doing and then just do it more/harder/faster/eXtrEme!

Put another way, Slambugalan is what a late 70s or early 80s super robot show would look like if it were produced today under a cinematic vision working with the constraints of an episodic medium. Darkzinger is what a 2010 super robot show would look like if it were produced using the same design aesthetics of the last decade with an eye towards marketing product to an established, insular fan base. SNL has a narrow range of innovation and the changes which are presented have simply been passed through the eXtrEme filter.

I'm with you there. But the gun-fu in that preview was awful. Does anyone find that shit interesting anymore? I thought the overabundance of John Woo and Matrix nonsense was too played out to be entertaining...

> I mean, if we're going to talk about originality
> in this genre, can anyone name a single super
> robot anime that has had any lasting artistic
> value as far as story, emotions, character?

You won't buy it, but I think the 08th MS Team does that. It's deeply flawed because of the usual Gundam nonsense, but it explored a lot of ground in the ambiguity of conflict using an intimate setting. It was also a peer of Evangelion, so maybe that has something to do with the similarities in exploring themes like identity, authority, conformity, reluctance, and insubordination. I think it's the most well-round "real robot" series I've seen yet. It doesn't have the metaphysical layer of stuff that Evangelion did, though that's not necessarily a disadvantage. In fact, it brings a lot of the existential themes closer to home because of the relative banality of its setting. Shiro had at least as much character development, if not more, than Shinji by the end of the series. And the 08th delivered an awesome heaping of robot violence without getting grossly political, too.

> The only one I can think of that managed to do
> anything original, as opposed to simply stretching
> and playing with preexisting conditions, was
> Evangelion, for which I have incredibly mixed
> feelings. Otherwise, I'm stumped. I think when we
> do talk about a super-robot show doing something
> new, it's usually some idiosyncratic element we
> fancy that's subservient to a more traditional and
> rigid form/structure.

I'm going to tack on a bit about wish fulfillment via robot avatars here because it goes back to one of the important differences between Evangelion and 08th MS Team. In the 08th, none of the characters are "chosen" in the sense that the EVA kids are. It's the opposite. They're all interchangeable in terms of the conflict in which they are engaged. That's a point regularly brought up by their superiors. So those pilots are products of a system which seeks uniformity as the basis of its operations, but ultimately collapses under the moral bankruptcy of its endeavors. Their character development is driven by this. They individuate and self-actualize under ambiguous circustances. In this case the ultimate goal is to put aside not just the avatars of wish fulfillment (the robots), but to defuse the need for such avatars in the first place (end the conflict amicably).

In Evangelion, the EVA kids are unique, divinely chosen pilots fighting over the ultimate stakes of existence. They cannot be replaced (or even interchanged) and if they fail all human life is wiped out. Again, all points spelled out for the audience using the leadership in the series. The theme here is that while Shinji might want to be normal, he can't escape the pressing specialness of his destiny. But, you know, none of the supporting characters are as essential or quite as predestined as him. By the end of the series he has almost no more character growth than when he started - he's still the ultimate passive-aggressive escapist asshole. So he spends time rejecting his avatar (EVA) because he wants to avoid conflict, until he has the vague realization that he can achieve that end by using the EVA to erase all individual life on Earth. His solution to the tension in the story is to end the conflict not by resolving it but by wiping out all sides.

I should point out that these differences do not simply reflect the constraints of real vs. super robot genres. Aside from stripping out the oddly literal existential elements of Evangelion, there's no other limitation imposed. The characters in the 08th still face the same issues as the EVA kids, they just do it without the benefit of gloriously huge city-eating metaphors for social ills. That is, Shiro (and the audience) can't literally "see" his fate the same way Shinji can within the constraints of the story. That alone almost makes it more elegant. Anyway. There are plenty of other "real robot" shows in which the central cast is as divinely gifted and unique as in Evangelion (Gundam Wing) as well as "super robot" shows in which the cast is hardly unique (Ideon, Zambot).

To reach this around to SNLzinger, it seems like it has more in common with Evangelion than 08th or Slumbudigan. But imagine if the show came from the perspective of a team of Garada pilots who, over the course of the conflict with Skullzinger, explored an ambiguous moral field of conflict and their CO decided the best way to exercise his will was to highjack the SKL super robot and detonate it at the factory where all the Garadas are built - thus erasing the means (and source?) of their enlarged conflict. Also, the CO becomes crippled in the process, marries, and ends up a school teacher in a bucolic setting of post-war reconstruction.

That shit would be awesome. But it would in no way please Mazinger fans and nobody would watch it. Worse yet, it might aggressively alienate future efforts in the same franchise. So, yeah. That's why we keep seeing the same shit over and over again. And this will continue so long as established audience tastes are commingled with bottom line earnings.

Yeah, for the record, I have no clue if I'm going to enjoy or detest Squidlypuff Titan. I saw about 3/4 of that first episode (I think)...it started with the male and female leads shopping for furniture in a mall. The scene made me wanna kill myself. And it seemed to last forever.

But I'm still far more willing to give this show a chance than Mazinator FEMA.

Not to rehash everything Gcrush just said, but Sapsuckafrog Titan just looks more visually interesting--if for no other reason than that it's different, while Macfarlankaizer is the slightly more eXtrEme version of what was on last week.

And even if this is entirely untrue, Laxativelog Titan doesn't have that same feel of having been conceived and produced in an otaku-focus group-driven corporate board room.

[Though--again, for the record--I had a totally different take on the ending of Evangelion that Gcrush did...]

Pretty interesting dissection of 08th MS Team and Evangelion, but I think this ignores that a lot of 08th MS Team was about the Romeo and Juliet thing. Individualism in that show is pretty heavily tied into love/sex/romance. Shiro can't be with Aina because they are soldiers on opposing sides, Michel can't be with Bibi because he's a soldier stationed in another country, et cetera. There's also a lot of crap about how war and fighting are useless as is par the course for Gundam and its peers like Macross. (We see the uselessness of revenge when Kiki and her guerrilla pals trying to get revenge for her father's death get their entire town destroyed and everyone killed except Kiki herself and so on.)

Ultimately, it's a little early to make a call on this new Mazinkaiser since all we've seen is a trailer, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. I loved the original Mazinkaiser OAV series, but the Mazinkaiser vs. The Grand General of Darkness sequel movie was terrible in my opinion. Sucked out all the fun and humor of the OAV and went around killing characters just to be omgz extreme, but if it was gleefully blowing people up in bloodsplosions like an episode of Superjail from day one (and not an annoying tonal shift after 8 episodes) it could be fun on that level, even if it is nothing like the original Mazinkaiser OAV. The Grand General movie just made it joyless and "dark" and boring.

Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The color palate, line weight, backdrops, and
> perspectives in Shumoboigadon are pushing the
> visual presentation in a way that is rarely seen.
> Or maybe has never been seen before in that
> combination. Taken individually certain elements
> purposefully hearken the 1970s Super Robot
> aesthetics (which were themselves drawn from
> 1940/50s animation in general) while also calling
> in some of the 1980s as well. So the pieces with
> which they start are not unique. But the toolkit
> they use to assemble them is. The synthesis is
> more refined and sophisticated while the final
> product is elegantly uncluttered and far more
> cinematic than anything yet. Skazinger is the
> opposite. The color palate, lines, and camera
> angles are well worn. The action and character
> tropes are upped by making them visually busier.
> It's typically cluttered and feels like the usual
> made-for-the-small-screen gunk that's been coming
> down the pipe for years. Take whatever you've
> been doing and then just do it
> more/harder/faster/eXtrEme!
>
Granted, while cartoons like Smorgasbord Titan show up far less often than things like SKL, which is why we feel saturated by the latter, this method of fusing and refining nostalgic design and line work with modern tech and cinematic sensibilities (sweeping shots, orchestral score, noir lighting) is the very quality that defined the Batman Animated series back in '92, so I guess as a fan of American toons, too, I'm feeling just as wearied by this faux-simplified style and wish shows like Teen Titans or Justice League had pulled back away from iconic abstraction, to borrow from and paraphrase badly Scott McCloud's terms. It seems to me like American cartoons since the 90s have been mired in their own aesthetic trends as well (and you're right that the meat of what we're discussing is aesthetics). I guess personally, I would just like a movement back toward the left:

I mean, let's have some circa-1980s, Tokyo Movie Shinsha-styled, hand-drawn stuff. That would be boss.

As far as the cluttered/clean stylistic differences, I get that, though I would ask also what you mean by Smorgasbord being more cinematic.

> Put another way, Slambugalan is what a late 70s or
> early 80s super robot show would look like if it
> were produced today under a cinematic vision
> working with the constraints of an episodic
> medium. Darkzinger is what a 2010 super robot
> show would look like if it were produced using the
> same design aesthetics of the last decade with an
> eye towards marketing product to an established,
> insular fan base.
>
Again, there may be less examples of the Smorgasbord aesthetic, but I do think there's a similar trending happening here. The more insular fanbase is right on though--there's a (typical) misogynistic taint in SKL that may keep me from watching it at all. The story line with something like Smorgasbord does have more possibility, but I doubt the possibilities will be exploited to much interesting effect.
>
> > (Though apparently, the way
> > to my heart is cheaply bought--just give me
> > smooth, detailed animation and stylized mecha
> > violence.)
>
> I'm with you there. But the gun-fu in that
> preview was awful. Does anyone find that shit
> interesting anymore? I thought the overabundance
> of John Woo and Matrix nonsense was too played out
> to be entertaining...
>
I guess the mecha porn, as played out as it indeed is, just seemed more palatable to me than the action in Smorgasbord. I'd have to rewatch Smorgasbord to explain why in clearer terms, though. It just struck me as bland.
>
> You won't buy it, but I think the 08th MS Team
> does that. Shiro had at
> least as much character development, if not more,
> than Shinji by the end of the series. And the
> 08th delivered an awesome heaping of robot
> violence without getting grossly political, too.
>
I actually have the box set of 08th. In my mind, though, there's a distinction between the super robot and real robot genres, for very much the same reasons you're praising 08th--that one of the underlying implications running through a lot of real robot toons is humans being treated as the very interchangeable machines they operate. The ability of real robot anime to actually produce profound emotional stakes and effects is what super robot toons will never have because there are no real characters in super robot toons. In fact, one of the most striking moments in a real robot toon was the postscript attached to the end of Gundam 0083, when we find out that Captain Synapse, one of the show's main characters, was executed for no good reason (or rather purely political reasons) by the very Federation he was serving.
>
> In Evangelion, the EVA kids are unique, divinely
> chosen pilots fighting over the ultimate stakes of
> existence.
>
This is the Star Wars/Star Trek debate, isn't it?

> By the end of the series he
> has almost no more character growth than when he
> started - he's still the ultimate
> passive-aggressive escapist asshole. So he spends
> time rejecting his avatar (EVA) because he wants
> to avoid conflict, until he has the vague
> realization that he can achieve that end by using
> the EVA to erase all individual life on Earth.
> His solution to the tension in the story is to end
> the conflict not by resolving it but by wiping out
> all sides.
>
Yeah, the characterizations and subsequent endings are god-awful, but what was interesting about the TV ending, as much as I hated it at the time and hate it still, was that it provided some commentary on of the self-obsessed myopic nature of super-robot fandom, drawing a parallel between Shinji's outlook and the outlook of an otaku trapped in a bubble of fantasized self-empowerment. But it's all done in an off-putting, self-indulgent manner.
>
> I should point out that these differences do not
> simply reflect the constraints of real vs. super
> robot genres. Aside from stripping out the oddly
> literal existential elements of Evangelion,
> there's no other limitation imposed. The
> characters in the 08th still face the same issues
> as the EVA kids, they just do it without the
> benefit of gloriously huge city-eating metaphors
> for social ills. That is, Shiro (and the
> audience) can't literally "see" his fate the same
> way Shinji can within the constraints of the
> story. That alone almost makes it more elegant.
> Anyway. There are plenty of other "real robot"
> shows in which the central cast is as divinely
> gifted and unique as in Evangelion (Gundam Wing)
> as well as "super robot" shows in which the cast
> is hardly unique (Ideon, Zambot).
>
The real/super robot distinction is really one about sensibility rather than name-branding or mecha. To me, Gundam Wing is a super robot show (sentai, too, in fact) as much as the original Gundam, which required the presence of divine Newtypes to drive the plot. It's not until the OAVs (0080, 0083, 08th) that there was more mature development of characters--you still have the super-Zeon-ace pilot in 0083, but the running joke is that Kou Uraki is continually busting up his Gundam(s) because he's *not* special--though this is a commercial ploy, too, to sell idiots like me Fix figures.
>
> To reach this around to SNLzinger, it seems like
> it has more in common with Evangelion than 08th or
> Slumbudigan. But imagine if the show came from
> the perspective of a team of Garada pilots who,
> over the course of the conflict with Skullzinger,
> explored an ambiguous moral field of conflict and
> their CO decided the best way to exercise his will
> was to highjack the SKL super robot and detonate
> it at the factory where all the Garadas are built
> - thus erasing the means (and source?) of their
> enlarged conflict. Also, the CO becomes crippled
> in the process, marries, and ends up a school
> teacher in a bucolic setting of post-war
> reconstruction.
>
Ha. Hell, a show focusing on any cannon fodder pilot in any genre would be great. There was this nice episode of Justice League Unlimited focused on Booster Gold, some scrub DC hero. Of course the ending screwed things up by allowing him to actually be heroic, but for most of the episode, it was fun watching this scrub kicking around on the periphery while Superman, Batman and the others were doing the heavy lifting and telling him what to do.

Ginrai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pretty interesting dissection of 08th MS Team and
> Evangelion, but I think this ignores that a lot of
> 08th MS Team was about the Romeo and Juliet thing.
>
Yeah, the superimposition of the Romeo/Juliet storyline was totally lame and clumsily done (and taints any anti-war commentary it may have), but to me it doesn't invalidate the fact that there was at least a move toward something other than "Gattai! Power up! Blow shit up!"

It's the least impressive of the real-styled Gundam OAVs (0083, 0080) on the level of story and character, but it had its moments--the duel with the Gouf Custom was fantastic.

I need some time to digestipate all that, but one thing stuck out at me immediately.

> The ability of real robot anime to actually produce profound emotional stakes and effects is what super robot toons will never have because there are no real characters in super robot toons.

This distinction between real and super robot genres inherently precludes any type of meaningful development in the latter. So, isn't criticizing that lack of development the same as criticizing your construction? As in, super robot shows can't go anywhere because they're super robot shows?

I didn't want to go that far because it's kind of depressing. Sure, super robot shows thus far have been primarily about villainous forces slamming themselves into oblivion against a hero's omnipotent avatar. Which is almost certainly what SNL Slathzinger will be. But... There's Ideon, right? And Zambot 3. Super robot shows could create tension if they treated their cast as vulnerable or made the operation of the titular mecha so incredibly complex that piloting one was a team effort of nearly divine proportions though said persons could still be replaced or rotated out as needed. Then you could have a situation about replaceable (i.e. mechanistic) persons operating an irreplaceable (i.e. god-like) avatar.

But if that were the case they would no longer be super robot shows the way you've set it up... Or am I missing something?

Ginrai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pretty interesting dissection of 08th MS Team and
> Evangelion, but I think this ignores that a lot of
> 08th MS Team was about the Romeo and Juliet thing.

Yeah, that's one of the deeply flawed parts I was thinking of. There was nothing about the 08th that really necessitated the awkward shoehorning of the love story into the plot. But it's par for the course within the Gundamverse. Ugh.

gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's the least impressive of the real-styled
> Gundam OAVs (0083, 0080) on the level of story and
> character, but it had its moments--the duel with
> the Gouf Custom was fantastic.

The Norris sequence is the reason I pin all my hopes and dreams on the awesomeness of the 08th to conquer anything in the entire Gundamverse. I have yet to see anything come close to it. But I am open to suggestions.

>Granted, while cartoons like Smorgasbord Titan show up far less often than things >like SKL, which is why we feel saturated by the latter, this method of fusing and >refining nostalgic design and line work with modern tech and cinematic >sensibilities (sweeping shots, orchestral score, noir lighting) is the very quality >that defined the Batman Animated series back in '92, so I guess as a fan of >American toons, too, I'm feeling just as wearied by this faux-simplified style and >wish shows like Teen Titans or Justice League had pulled back away from iconic >abstraction, to borrow from and paraphrase badly Scott McCloud's terms. It seems to >me like American cartoons since the 90s have been mired in their own aesthetic >trends as well (and you're right that the meat of what we're discussing is >aesthetics). I guess personally, I would just like a movement back toward the left:

EXACTLY! That's what I've been trying to say all along the the Symbiotic Titan thread.. Granted, too realist can become boring (my main problem with nearly all the videogames that come out today is there's no stylization in the character designs and instead focuses on how "real" the graphics can be).

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".

> The ability of real robot anime to actually produce profound emotional stakes
>and effects is what super robot toons will never have because there are no real
>characters in super robot toons.

"This distinction between real and super robot genres inherently precludes any type of meaningful development in the latter. So, isn't criticizing that lack of development the same as criticizing your construction? As in, super robot shows can't go anywhere because they're super robot shows?"

Sloppy phrasing on my part. I think that what you're describing--the ability of characters to be vulnerable, to demonstrate weakness--is what we both would agree on as a vital component of a "good" robot show, and certainly I've overlooked "super" robot shows that have exceeded their generic prescriptions.

What I was trying to get at was that in my highly personalized, ad hoc classification system, it's no so much the avatar or generic attributes that determines whether something is real/super as the human characters, or rather the sensibility driving the characters/story/writing.

E.g., Escaflowne, despite having all the trappings of a super-robot show, including a supernatural robot powered by the blood of royalty, had characters and a storyline that possessed a greater degree of complexity than what one would normally expect from the genre. I tend to think of it as an adventure show that happens to have a robot rather than a robot show.

Patlabor is generally considered a "real" robot show, but the characters are so well-drawn and the stories so well written that to me, it's a character drama that happens to have a giant bipedal robotic device.

Or the Giant Robo OVA, which despite being cast in the mold of the giant robot show, feels way more "real" than a Shin Getter Robo or Mazinkaiser.

I haven't seen Ideon or Zambot, but I imagine, based on what you've said, that my reaction to them would not be dissimilar from my reaction to the above.

So if I were to revise, it wouldn't be that super robot shows can't have real characters, but that I tend to dismiss as "super" robot shows that feature only a super-powered robot with no developed characters and/or plot.

Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Norris sequence is the reason I pin all my
> hopes and dreams on the awesomeness of the 08th to
> conquer anything in the entire Gundamverse. I
> have yet to see anything come close to it. But I
> am open to suggestions.
>
There is something unutterably cool about that sequence, given the context and the character.

But the most emotionally riveting scene in any Gundam show for me was the final duel in 0080. It was also highly manipulative and contrived, but what's unique about that scene is that Christine (the Gundam pilot) has no idea whom she's killed in the climactic moment of the entire show, and likely will never find out, leaving the viewer (and Al, the kid protagonist) in an extremely privileged yet necessarily tragic position. I've not seen anything like this staged in Gundam/anime before.

edit: Just refreshed my memory and remembered that the ending was even more tragic than I'd thought, given a couple of other circumstances. Definitely one of the saddest, most meaningful endings in a Gundamverse of shows rife with operatic pathos.

Also, throw in the fact that all three main characters are completely against type: The Gundam pilot is a shy young lady, her Zeon rival is an inept rookie who's the scrub of his elite unit, and the show's main character is a little boy who, thank god, never pilots a mobile suit or joins the battle. There's really no other Gundam show like this one.

gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sloppy phrasing on my part. I think that what
> you're describing--the ability of characters to be
> vulnerable, to demonstrate weakness--is what we
> both would agree on as a vital component of a
> "good" robot show, and certainly I've overlooked
> "super" robot shows that have exceeded their
> generic prescriptions.
>
> What I was trying to get at was that in my highly
> personalized, ad hoc classification system, it's
> no so much the avatar or generic attributes that
> determines whether something is real/super as the
> human characters, or rather the sensibility
> driving the characters/story/writing.

I got it now.

> I haven't seen Ideon or Zambot, but I imagine,
> based on what you've said, that my reaction to
> them would not be dissimilar from my reaction to
> the above.

I haven't watched Ideon in ages, but I remember it being wildly against type. The details are lost to me now, but the tone and conclusion to the story are... Nihilistic for a super robot show. Based on the near omnipotent scope of the Ideon's power and the way the cast was utilized I think it qualifies as a pleasing contribution to the SR genre. But maybe that's because it relies upon RR characters to some extent.

> So if I were to revise, it wouldn't be that super
> robot shows can't have real characters, but that I
> tend to dismiss as "super" robot shows that
> feature only a super-powered robot with no
> developed characters and/or plot.

Yeah, I still can't figure out why Mazinger needed a pilot. Or the RX-78. And so on. Don't they all essentially treat the pilots as MacGuffins as opposed to the mecha? Just skip that crap and make the robots sentient. It would save us a lot of needless screaming...

> But the most emotionally riveting scene in any
> Gundam show for me was the final duel in 0080. It
> was also highly manipulative and contrived, but
> what's unique about that scene is that Christine
> (the Gundam pilot) has no idea whom she's killed
> in the climactic moment of the entire show, and
> likely will never find out, leaving the viewer
> (and Al, the kid protagonist) in an extremely
> privileged yet necessarily tragic position. I've
> not seen anything like this staged in Gundam/anime
> before.

I had completely forgotten about that. Yes, yes, yes. War in the Pocket was one of the most compelling stories in the Gundamverse.

Kwesi K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would also say that while their time is brief,
> 0080 gives you the grunts just trying to survive a
> job with the Zeon Strike team who are assigned to
> infiltrate the colony and destroy the new Gundam.

Yeah, the scope was so narrow that it was glorious. The Gundamverse from the insurgent's perspective. Good stuff.

I don't see how SNLslinger can compete with any of this in terms of story. And the little bit of action they showed was weak. Looks like Shin Mazinger crossed with Mazinkaiser. Not really a compelling formula. Meh.

Vincent Z. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EXACTLY! That's what I've been trying to say all
> along the the Symbiotic Titan thread.. Granted,
> too realist can become boring (my main problem
> with nearly all the videogames that come out today
> is there's no stylization in the character designs
> and instead focuses on how "real" the graphics can
> be).

Man, that makes no sense. "I don't like stylized visuals except for when I do like them." I think you're responding to more than just the aesthetics...

Also, it seems like you're confusing "realistic" with "detailed". For example, do any of these men seem realistic to you?

I've seen brick school houses that are narrower and less square than their jaws. Must be why they don't need to wear helmets in a gun fight. The bullets just bounce right off of their noggins.

Yeah, gotta say 0080 was dope...except for one thing: the musical score. Every time I used to watch it, the horrifically-inappropriate music would nearly kill the experience for me. The plot, characters, and action are SO good...but the music is SO bad--I'd love to slap the idiot who chose that horrendous crap... If only they could just re-score it...BEST GUNDUM EVAR!

God I have 0080. Most boring fucking mini series in the history of ever.

Patlabor is totally a character-driven show. Alphonse just happens to be a mechanical character, but otherwise, the robots are almost irrelevant. The fact that they kick ass probably has something to do with Patlabor's success and staying power, though.