One thing people forget about Schumacher is that he made generally one big unforced error per season (outside of the years he was cruising to the title) even when he was quite experienced.

1994. Hit the wall and DNF'd his car before he took Hill out1995. San Marino, spun out.1996. Monaco into the wall1997. He had 3 race ending collisions 1998. Lost his wing twice at Monaco. Rear ended DC at Spa (arguably not his fault)1999. Went into the wall of champions2000. No individual error but went out at turn 1 twice in collisions.2001.2002.2003. Spun out of Brazil. Lost his wing at Malaysia and Japan.2004. Monaco tunnel incident. Spun out in China/Monza.2005. Collided/Spun to 4 DNFs2006. Spun out in Australia. Lost his wing in Hungary

2010-2012 isn't the same Schumacher so no need to bring that in.

What kind of argument is this? Which driver doesn't spin or lose the car? Senna did, Fangio did, Clark did and paid with his life. They ALL make mistakes.

Also, you should have left out a few of them. The DC incident was DC's fault. In 2000 you mention yourself that there was no individual error, so why include that?

Finally, shouldn't you do the same list for Lewis if you wanted to compare them?

Hamilton 2018? That was the point, hard to beat somebody who makes no errors. Alonso made no errros in 2006 too.

2000, I couldn’t remember if Schumacher was at fault for either of the two turn 1 crashes to DNF. What I meant was, no individual unforced error (I.e. on his own on track, like the majority of them).

It could be in part down to track design, but the last time Hamilton retired with an individual error was China 2007?

Not just for 2018, Hamilton in general, as you compiled the list for Schumacher. Why isolating 2018 alone when listing Schumacher's whole career?

And Hamilton has had incidents with other cars, offs and spins just like any other driver. But anyway, I'm not going to make a list for Hamilton, just pointing out that your post seemed one sided when you try to compare the two.

Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

Maybe for the first 1/4 of the season, Vettel did seem to be driving better than Hamilton, but Lewis's performances after that changed that narrative by the summer break.

Yes I wouldn't disagree with that and you could say it was a repeat of the 2017 season, Hamilton himself has said that he gets stronger through the season as he gets more on top of the car and tyres.

Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

Yeah I'm lost with Zoue's whole narrative here. After Vettel's mistakes in Baku, France and Germany I can't recall anyone talking about him as the best performer of the first half.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I'm not defining it as up to the summer break and I'm telling you categorically that I'm not defining it. It's clear that he came in for a lot of flack after Germany.

I think I know what I'm defining better than you do and it's unclear to me why you would try to make such an issue of it when I've taken pains to explain it. Good grief

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

Yeah I'm lost with Zoue's whole narrative here. After Vettel's mistakes in Baku, France and Germany I can't recall anyone talking about him as the best performer of the first half.

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

No you actually mentioned the summer break.

Quote:

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I'm not defining it as up to the summer break and I'm telling you categorically that I'm not defining it. It's clear that he came in for a lot of flack after Germany.

I think I know what I'm defining better than you do and it's unclear to me why you would try to make such an issue of it when I've taken pains to explain it. Good grief

This is what you posted

Quote:

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I'm not defining it as up to the summer break and I'm telling you categorically that I'm not defining it. It's clear that he came in for a lot of flack after Germany.

I think I know what I'm defining better than you do and it's unclear to me why you would try to make such an issue of it when I've taken pains to explain it. Good grief

This is what you posted

Quote:

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

He clearly said before the Summer.

The fact he later used the words "summer break" in his post while making a separate point is irrelevant. You can't chop 2 halves of sentences in different paragraphs together and argue that's what the person said.

I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season.

He has been alternating good and less good years recently from 2013 onwards, it seems. I doubt Vettel's general level is what has been seen this year and he'd only need to bring back the aggression a single peg to more or less be the same driver but have an excellent season. Looking past the mistakes, he still has considerable pace in qualifying and the race.

I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season..

I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season..

Baku? Singapore? Mexico?

Well, not as much as in 2018, that much is true.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Well I didn't say he matched Hamilton's performance last season if you're referring to me. Interesting interpretation of the English if that's the case, sandman.

Paolo, yes Baku was a mad error and Singapore can be argued to be another big error or a racing incident. By Mexico it was done basically so for the period the race was realistically alive there were far less errors from Vettel last season as compared to 2018.

I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season..

Baku? Singapore? Mexico?

Well, not as much as in 2018, that much is true.

Post-race Malaysia?

_________________You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do. Lewis Hamilton

I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season..

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

Indeed more often that not Hamilton does not get DoTD when he wins from pole, Japan would be the latest example.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

yeah but OTOH how many heroics are involved in leading from the front? Verstappen said after his Mexican win last year that it was the easiest race he'd ever had. How does that really compare with someone who has to try and fight his way past others?

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

yeah but OTOH how many heroics are involved in leading from the front? Verstappen said after his Mexican win last year that it was the easiest race he'd ever had. How does that really compare with someone who has to try and fight his way past others?

This is why I said that it sometimes doesn't say the whole story. I personally think that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you'd see Senna or Schumacher blast to a lead and then just cruise to victory. They were not challenged in the race, they were that good. It doesn't mean that they were not the top driver that day though, does it? Maybe it is that the driver fighting from the back gets more camera time than the leader, which is understandable. It is difficult to assess this, in my opinion at least.

But I do get your point that (at least I think I do!) if a driver doesn't have to do anything but cruise to victory, then he probably doesn't (have to) put his best performance on show that day. It probably makes him less deserving the DOTD, but equally it wouldn't be his fault.

pokerman wrote:

Indeed more often that not Hamilton does not get DoTD when he wins from pole, Japan would be the latest example.

Agreed, but see above. The driver in the lead normally has one difficult task (the clean getaway) and then just to regulate his pace. He is not doing the "heroics" that would earn him the DOTD title. It is not his fault obviously, but equally he maybe didn't have to produce his best racecraft ever.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

yeah but OTOH how many heroics are involved in leading from the front? Verstappen said after his Mexican win last year that it was the easiest race he'd ever had. How does that really compare with someone who has to try and fight his way past others?

This is why I said that it sometimes doesn't say the whole story. I personally think that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Sometimes you'd see Senna or Schumacher blast to a lead and then just cruise to victory. They were not challenged in the race, they were that good. It doesn't mean that they were not the top driver that day though, does it? Maybe it is that the driver fighting from the back gets more camera time than the leader, which is understandable. It is difficult to assess this, in my opinion at least.

But I do get your point that (at least I think I do!) if a driver doesn't have to do anything but cruise to victory, then he probably doesn't (have to) put his best performance on show that day. It probably makes him less deserving the DOTD, but equally it wouldn't be his fault.

pokerman wrote:

Indeed more often that not Hamilton does not get DoTD when he wins from pole, Japan would be the latest example.

Agreed, but see above. The driver in the lead normally has one difficult task (the clean getaway) and then just to regulate his pace. He is not doing the "heroics" that would earn him the DOTD title. It is not his fault obviously, but equally he maybe didn't have to produce his best racecraft ever.

yep that's pretty much my point. Leading from the front tends to make a lot fewer demands of a driver than having to battle through the field. The heroics come from overcoming the odds

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

Since we all like to play the what if game; in your opinion do you think that Michael Schumacher at 31 years of age would have won while driving this years Ferrari?

Depends how dominant Merc are for the remaining races.

Yeah, agreed. Peak Schumacher would have been leading the title going into Russia. Whether he'd be able to win it or not depends on what happens for the rest of the year. Merc's form post-Belgium is very strong, and I no longer consider Ferrari to have the better car.

One thing you must ALWAYS when considering ANYTHING Shumeister!!!…

However fast the guy in his sister car, a 31 year old Michael is going to be a tad we bit faster AND will not make stupid mistakes, and he will be in the first 2 spots to begin with so all he has to do is chase and pressure the guy in front until he either makes a mistake or cooks his tires, at which time Michael would Zip on by and proceed to open up a gap just as fast as he would have at the opening of the race.

The ONLY thing that we need to keep in mind that Hamilton is eerily close to the same type of performance and if he's ultra-focused might not crack under pressure from Michael, but then again, knowing that it's Michael, whatever amount of pressure he's applying is automatically magnified a bit, so that might result in a mistake just the same.

Of all the drivers I've seen in F1, no one was as consistently better than his compatriots throughout their career the way Michael was.This season is quite similar to 05 & 06 and if you look back to those seasons, you will see that under immense pressure the drivers in contention for the title made very few to no mistakes. All of them were so tough under pressure and the way they dealt with it was to apply more pressure on one another. To boot, Alonso only won the 06 title due to an extremely rare failure of a Ferrari engine that happened to be the one bolted onto Michael's car. To this day the most painful moment I've ever experienced watching F1. (outside of deaths of course)

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

There is a very logical explanation for this, offered just in the posts above. Does that sound absurd to you? It is perfectly normal to think that a driver coming from behind has his work cut out for him and has to show his racecraft, while a driver at the front is pretty much cruising. It doesn't make him a bad driver, to the contrary, he has done very well to be there.

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

There is a very logical explanation for this, offered just in the posts above. Does that sound absurd to you? It is perfectly normal to think that a driver coming from behind has his work cut out for him and has to show his racecraft, while a driver at the front is pretty much cruising. It doesn't make him a bad driver, to the contrary, he has done very well to be there.

I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.

Since we all like to play the what if game; in your opinion do you think that Michael Schumacher at 31 years of age would have won while driving this years Ferrari?

Depends how dominant Merc are for the remaining races.

Yeah, agreed. Peak Schumacher would have been leading the title going into Russia. Whether he'd be able to win it or not depends on what happens for the rest of the year. Merc's form post-Belgium is very strong, and I no longer consider Ferrari to have the better car.

One thing you must ALWAYS when considering ANYTHING Shumeister!!!…

However fast the guy in his sister car, a 31 year old Michael is going to be a tad we bit faster AND will not make stupid mistakes, and he will be in the first 2 spots to begin with so all he has to do is chase and pressure the guy in front until he either makes a mistake or cooks his tires, at which time Michael would Zip on by and proceed to open up a gap just as fast as he would have at the opening of the race.

The ONLY thing that we need to keep in mind that Hamilton is eerily close to the same type of performance and if he's ultra-focused might not crack under pressure from Michael, but then again, knowing that it's Michael, whatever amount of pressure he's applying is automatically magnified a bit, so that might result in a mistake just the same.

Of all the drivers I've seen in F1, no one was as consistently better than his compatriots throughout their career the way Michael was.This season is quite similar to 05 & 06 and if you look back to those seasons, you will see that under immense pressure the drivers in contention for the title made very few to no mistakes. All of them were so tough under pressure and the way they dealt with it was to apply more pressure on one another. To boot, Alonso only won the 06 title due to an extremely rare failure of a Ferrari engine that happened to be the one bolted onto Michael's car. To this day the most painful moment I've ever experienced watching F1. (outside of deaths of course)

Did not Alonso have a wheel fall of his car whilst leading the Hungarian GP?

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

There is a very logical explanation for this, offered just in the posts above. Does that sound absurd to you? It is perfectly normal to think that a driver coming from behind has his work cut out for him and has to show his racecraft, while a driver at the front is pretty much cruising. It doesn't make him a bad driver, to the contrary, he has done very well to be there.

I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.