arakor has a small point here in that unskilled labor is paid thus. However, raising minimum wage wouldn't cause unskilled labor to be paid the same as skilled; it would just increase the minimum.

This. I hate the argument that, because unskilled labor doesn't require specialized education, that it's worthless and you can basically pay slave wages for it. If it's so worthless, and anyone can do it, why don't the company CEOs or managers go out and do all the labor? Why pay someone at all?

Oh, right, because somebody has to do it. They can whine about how "worthless" the labor is all they want, but it's extremely valuable to the company, because without a menial labor force, they wouldn't be able to make any money at all. The menial workers and salespeople are the face of the company that the public sees. The labor itself may be unskilled, but that's not all you're paying them for --- you're paying them for doing work that you can't do because you have other jobs to attend to, like running the company. If it weren't for those workers, your company would only exist on paper and you wouldn't have a workable business model.

Quote:

Basic necessities meaning what? Most people feel this means a 1500 sq' apartment, cel phones, a land line, internet, 50" flat screen, video games, dvd's, netflix, a new car, going out whenever they want etc. These have become bullshit necessities in the minds of insane people. So unless they have them, they feel slighted.

There you go making assumptions again. Let me break it down for you: if I buy ONLY food, shelter, and enough gas to travel straight to and from work and nowhere else, I will spend $700/month on rent, $40-50 a week on gas = $160-200/month, and between $50-100/week on groceries, depending on whether I'm buying just for myself or for the whole family. And that's if I buy shit food, like canned meat and Totino's pizzas and Kraft easy-mac. That's not even the cost of eating food that's actually good for you (with the possible exception of fruit, which is fairly cheap, and rice, which is *really* cheap and easy to make).

That means that, if I calculate the conservative estimate of the cost of my OWN living, it's around 700 + 160 + 50 = $910/month. That's the bare minimum; I have no children, and I'm not married. Assuming I were to sever all ties to my family and neither help them nor receive help from them financially, that's how much it would cost to live with the bare essentials. And do you know how much I made, working 35-40 hours a week at a local cafe for 5 years at above minimum wage? I made around $800 a month. I got two raises while I worked there, but because I had to pick up the cost of insurance, my actual take-home pay per month was closer to $760 on average by the time I left.

tl;dr = the barest essential cost of living, was more than what I made. And I made more than minimum wage. If I had made minimum wage, there wouldn't even be a question of whether or not I could be self-sufficient. You keep going on about how fast food jobs are for kids, but that's oversimplifying the economy --- fast-food jobs are generally last-resort jobs that people can take during desperate times, where more lucrative jobs are not available. Most people only work fast food jobs for a year or two tops, usually to make a stepping stone between better jobs. But they still have to survive off of that income for the duration of their employment there.

With that said, I'm also not aware of any evidence that fast food jobs were created with the sole intent of hiring young people to work there; far as I know, that's just an excuse that people use to justify paying slavery wages. Fast food companies are there to make money, and they will hire anyone who will take the job and do a halfway decent job of it. Go into any McDonald's or Burger King, and you're bound to see at least one or two employees (more, depending on where you go) who are not teenagers. There's no rule that you have to be a cheeky young kid to get a job in fast-food.

01-11-2013

XYlophonetreeZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llamas

arakor has a small point here in that unskilled labor is paid thus. However, raising minimum wage wouldn't cause unskilled labor to be paid the same as skilled; it would just increase the minimum.

Well, not directly, but I think what he meant is that with new minimum wage laws, the only employers that would be obligated to raise workers' wages are those already paying the current minimum wage. So it will bring the unskilled workers closer to skilled ones in terms of pay. With that said, I'm still for increasing the minimum. Too much income disparity as it is.

I do think it's a shame that the value of a college education has decreased so much. It's becoming pretty rare to find a job opening that requires "a bachelor's degree" or even "a bachelor's degree + X years experience." The vast majority of them either require just a high school diploma or an advanced degree. I'm not really sure what the best solution would be for this, or if people just need to suck it up and accept things have changed.

01-11-2013

_Lost_

My house is owned by a family friend, thus my rent is low at only $450 a month. Then I have gas, electricity, and water, which averages between $160 - 250 depending on the time of year and weather. Note: my heat is usually set between 60 and 65 degrees in the winter and 75 to 80 in the summer and in the spring and fall, I turn it off completely and open the windows. I spend $40 to $50 a week on gas to get to work because my job is outside of the city and the public transit system here is useless anyway. Plus, there is car insurance which runs me $40 a month. And my monthly phone bill is $35 a month. I don't have a land-line and my phone is prepaid with the minimum allowed phone plan. Groceries for me alone run around $30 a week. And still, none of this takes into account things like work clothes, toiletries, cleaning necessities, detergent, etc.

Assuming I cut off my internet, never used extra gas to visit anyone, didn't buy health insurance or anything like that, in a full-time, minimum wage job, I could just barely squeeze by. Problem is, nearly every low paying job is part-time. 40 hours a week simply does not happen, because large companies then have to provide you with insurance, so you end up working a max of 35 hours a week, but usually not even that. The grocery company I work for just cut the part-time 'maximum hours a week' to 25.

01-11-2013

MOTO13

Minimum wage jobs are what they are...low paying, unskilled, high turnover, menial positions that will always be paid less than what may actually be needed to have a good life. Get used to it, get educated or get into communal living. These positions are not meant to be careers (at least not to me). If they are a career choice, it's a poor one. No doubt that if you live alone and make minimum wage, you are going to have a very tough time of it. The fact is, if you own a business where positions require little or no skill, you will NEVER pay a high wage. Why? The people pool for the position is way to big. Young kids not needing to make an actual living will take the job and push others out. They need stereo and girlfriend money and that's about it.

01-11-2013

Llamas

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOTO13

Fast food jobs and those similar deserve minimum wage. They DESERVE a low minimum wage. Why? Simple. It is a job that requires damn near zero training or skill. You can take anyone off the street and in 5 minutes, their working fairly effectively at that job and the job is very safe. By safe I mean their is no personal safety risks or anything that defines that position as even remotely hazardess. This means anyone can do it and the people market for doing a no skill job is pretty large. It's basically everyone. If you want to position yourself where anyone can take your job, have at it. You deserve a low wage. If you want to make more dinero, get a skill or education and invest in yourself to better yourself. Thinking that every job, no matter what it is, deserves to afford that person a good living is ridiculous.

Boy, is this ever a terribly wrong generalization. I was paid $2.33/hour working in a restaurant; our boss told us that to get a raise, we needed to "smile more". In those two years, I injured myself twice. In other minimum-wage jobs I've held, I was burnt and cut several times. I also suffered back injury. I'm not blaming the company at all, but the work I (and my coworkers did) was not safe. Several of my coworkers had to go to the hospital for serious 3rd degree burns and deep cuts (requiring stiches). I now make ~$30 per hour to privately train professionals (doctors, salesmen, directors, etc) in English, for Cambridge exams, business English, etc. I have been doing this work for over three years now, and have never once hurt myself. Yes, it's easier to find people who are able to serve in a restaurant than to do what I do now, but to say that unskilled labor is safer than skilled labor is absurd. It's actually usually the minimum-wage jobs that are more likely to be risky.

And you didn't answer my question: "what do you do for work? What's your career path? And have you ever worked for minimum wage? In what context?"

01-11-2013

_Lost_

Wishomie always skirts around such questions. He'd hate to admit he works at McD's or something.

01-11-2013

MOTO13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llamas

Boy, is this ever a terribly wrong generalization. I was paid $2.33/hour working in a restaurant; our boss told us that to get a raise, we needed to "smile more". In those two years, I injured myself twice. In other minimum-wage jobs I've held, I was burnt and cut several times. I also suffered back injury. I'm not blaming the company at all, but the work I (and my coworkers did) was not safe. Several of my coworkers had to go to the hospital for serious 3rd degree burns and deep cuts (requiring stiches). I now make ~$30 per hour to privately train professionals (doctors, salesmen, directors, etc) in English, for Cambridge exams, business English, etc. I have been doing this work for over three years now, and have never once hurt myself. Yes, it's easier to find people who are able to serve in a restaurant than to do what I do now, but to say that unskilled labor is safer than skilled labor is absurd. It's actually usually the minimum-wage jobs that are more likely to be risky.

And you didn't answer my question: "what do you do for work? What's your career path? And have you ever worked for minimum wage? In what context?"

As a general rule, minimum wage jobs are not dangerous positions worthy of extra pay. Sometimes, now just sometimes, minimum wage employees ain't the brightest bulbs either. They may get hurt from time to time. It's OK...they are replaceable. You can get hurt making mud pies or using a curling iron.

What do I do? I train fast food workers.

01-11-2013

Static_Martyr

Quote:

As a general rule, minimum wage jobs are not dangerous positions worthy of extra pay. Sometimes, now just sometimes, minimum wage employees ain't the brightest bulbs either. They may get hurt from time to time. It's OK...they are replaceable. You can get hurt making mud pies or using a curling iron.

If danger = extra pay, then fast food jobs qualify. Working with hot grease that can splatter, wide grills and cooking surfaces that you can burn yourself badly on if you make the slightest slip or mistake, and sharp meat cutters/cutting tools are all very dangerous, and I've also had a few co-workers over the years who had to be rushed to the ER for cutting themselves on a brand-new blade or getting a serious burn when they slipped while cooking on a 450+ degree grill surface.

And I hate to break it to ya, Mr. "Only Poor People Are Stupid," but clumsy people come in all types. You can be smart and skilled, and still be clumsy. You can be a doctor or lawyer and still make mistakes sometimes. Nobody's perfect. It's misleading to talk as if only fast-food workers are "dumb enough" to be injured on the job. Construction workers get injured all the time, and they pay very well and most offer benefits. ALL unsafe jobs carry a risk of serious injury. Clumsiness is part of it, but a work day is never certain; mistakes can always be made and accidents can always happen. Safety and precaution just minimizes that risk.

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What do I do? I train fast food workers.

Oh, okay. So since you're such a success story yourself, I guess you would know all about how to run a business, eh? ;:rolleyes:

01-11-2013

MOTO13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Static_Martyr

If danger = extra pay, then fast food jobs qualify. Working with hot grease that can splatter, wide grills and cooking surfaces that you can burn yourself badly on if you make the slightest slip or mistake, and sharp meat cutters/cutting tools are all very dangerous, and I've also had a few co-workers over the years who had to be rushed to the ER for cutting themselves on a brand-new blade or getting a serious burn when they slipped while cooking on a 450+ degree grill surface.

And I hate to break it to ya, Mr. "Only Poor People Are Stupid," but clumsy people come in all types. You can be smart and skilled, and still be clumsy. You can be a doctor or lawyer and still make mistakes sometimes. Nobody's perfect. It's misleading to talk as if only fast-food workers are "dumb enough" to be injured on the job. Construction workers get injured all the time, and they pay very well and most offer benefits. ALL unsafe jobs carry a risk of serious injury. Clumsiness is part of it, but a work day is never certain; mistakes can always be made and accidents can always happen. Safety and precaution just minimizes that risk.

Oh, okay. So since you're such a success story yourself, I guess you would know all about how to run a business, eh? ;:rolleyes:

I was trying to interject a bit of humor. I know people can get hurt. The work is not haz-pay work. That's my point. Doctor's make mistakes, they get sued. Don't act like the fast food area is one giant mine field either. I worked fast food as a bus boy and grill cook. Never got hurt once. People get hurt all the time doing stupid shit. You cannot stop that. Doesn't mean you deserve friggin bonus pay for doing something. People get hurt walking out a friggin door. Shit happens...so what? My memories of fast food are as follows...food was great, pay sucked, hours were horrible, people were awsome, job was mind numbingly stupid, I hated it and did not make that my life's choice. Shit...someone just jammed a pickle in the slurpy machine...be right back.

01-11-2013

Llamas

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Lost_

Wishomie always skirts around such questions. He'd hate to admit he works at McD's or something.

Lolz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOTO13

What do I do? I train fast food workers.

Wait... you're joking, right?

I didn't say they deserve bonus pay, nor that it's a mine field. I said you were wrong when you said min-wage work is ultra safe, and safer than most higher-paid jobs (which include a LOT of desk/office jobs... ultra safe).

It's funny that you constantly tell people to get educated and get better jobs... you write like you have a high school diploma, maybe tech school? Associate's degree at best. And you train fast food workers. Man, that's real hard work... really giving back to the people, huh?? You talk like you run a business and know how to make shitloads of money, but what do you make? A whopping $12/hour? God, I hope you were joking...