Moonage Daydream 3 years ago on 12/18/11Equipped: Link's Boomerang named "I wish I knew how to quit you"

John Booty said:So I don't know.

Spoken like a true agnostic!

John Booty said:But I do know we've never found one shred of good evidence for the existence of anything you could reasonably call a god.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Also, we have never found one shred of good evidence to explain why anything exists at all.

John Booty said: There are still unexplored parts of the Amazon, but I think it's reasonable to say there are no unicorns there. It's not a leap of faith; we've never seen one single thing to suggest that unicorns exist.

It is more reasonable to draw conclusions about the Amazon than to draw conclusions about that which is outside of space and time as we know them. We've seen "some" Amazon but we've never seen, like, other universes or anything from before the Big Bang (if time has any meaning in that context)

PS: I'm not saying that "God made it" is a reasonable theory for the existence of the universe, mind you, I'm just saying we can't say with certainty that there is nothing that could be described as a God.

I mean, like, man, what if we're all in the Matrix? What if the universe is a big computer simulation being run by beings we can't even conceive?

It'd be pretty hard to know if we've seen evidence of God or not since we do not really know what constitutes evidence of God or even a god. We could be staring such evidence in the face every day.

John Booty 3 years ago on 12/19/11Equipped: Sparkledonkey's Gallbladder

Moonage said:Also, we have never found one shred of good evidence to explain why anything exists at all.

Really? I feel like we've answered an astonishing number of why's. We have a pretty good model that explains a significant amount of shit back to 13.7 billion years ago.

A lot of what we think we know now is absolutely going to change in the coming decades and centuries, but geez, I think we've been on a pretty good pace for the last few hundred years.

How much of "we have never found one shred of..." comes from the fact that we admittedly haven't got the faintest idea what existed before the Big Bang?

Moonage Daydream 3 years ago on 12/19/11Equipped: Link's Boomerang named "I wish I knew how to quit you"

John Booty said:How much of "we have never found one shred of..." comes from the fact that we admittedly haven't got the faintest idea what existed before the Big Bang?

All of it. I mean, that's Question Number One, isn't it? Why is there something instead of nothing? Even figuring out 13.7 billion years of expanding universe and higher mass elements forged in nuclear furnaces leading to sentient life investigating the whole affair pales next to that question.

PS:

Matthew said: It'd be pretty hard to know if we've seen evidence of God or not since we do not really know what constitutes evidence of God or even a god. We could be staring such evidence in the face every day.

That's a good point.

Like, what if we made contact with intelligent life from another planet, and found out that they had also, at some point, created "All Along The Watchtower"? WHAT THEN, HUH?

Amanda 3 years ago on 12/19/11Equipped: Flux Capacitor named "THE FALLOPIAN TUBES OF TIME TRAVEL"

John, your logic train seems to lead to the conclusion that the existence of a higher power is irrelevant, not that it's conclusively false.

We have, as a reasoning, functioning, scientific community, never done a single experiment with the hypothesis "God does not exist" because we do not know what exact quality or event to test for existence of a God-being. Even our incredible scientific advances in the last century don't mean dick because it's not like the Bible says "THOU SHALT BE UNABLE TO FIND THE HIGGS-BOSON DESPITE SOUND THEORY AND SCIENTIFIC RIGOR"

Developing sound scientific theories about how the universe works has never disproven shit about a God because 100% of the disproven "truths" about the universe were erroneous conclusions drawn by the results of bad science.

John Booty 3 years ago on 12/19/11Equipped: Sparkledonkey's Gallbladder

All of it. I mean, that's Question Number One, isn't it? Why is there something instead of nothing? Even figuring out 13.7 billion years of expanding universe and higher mass elements forged in nuclear furnaces leading to sentient life investigating the whole affair pales next to that question.

It's not much different than lightning being completely beyond the scope of anything humans understood until the 16th century or so!

You and me probably won't know and neither will our grandkids (and just to be clear, I'm saying that you and I will make children with eachother, and hopefully they will have kids of their own) but I think we're on a really good pace and this seems like a weird point in history to say, "Wait - maybe it issssssss alllll magic!"

I know none of that rules something God-like out 100.00%. But I mean really. Centuries of learning and discovery. Billions of people. No evidence at all. At what point do we move on?

Amanda said:John, your logic train seems to lead to the conclusion that the existence of a higher power is irrelevant, not that it's conclusively false.

The existence of a higher power would matter a whole lot!

To condense everything I said:

1) Religious people are frequently awesome, and atheism is frequently obnoxious, and that obnoxiousness is counterproductive to (what ought to be, in my opinion) the goals of those who are atheist.

2) No kind of real evidence has ever pointed to some kind of God existing, so at what point do we move on?

3) The question's a bit irrelevant since few are willing to even propose a definition for what God would be like, and a civilization just slightly more advanced than us might be indistinguishable from gods by some definitions.

4) I'm gonna have babies by Moonage Daydream.

Moonage Daydream 3 years ago on 12/19/11Equipped: Link's Boomerang named "I wish I knew how to quit you"

John Booty said:

It's not much different than lightning being completely beyond the scope of anything humans understood until the 16th century or so!

You and me probably won't know and neither will our grandkids (and just to be clear, I'm saying that yo...

I pretty much agree with what you say, but I guess I would just sum it up as "there is no reason for science to look for evidence of God" instead of "there is no God."

But that may be my overreaction to dealing with a constant barrage of false claims of ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY on EVERY TOPIC IMAGINABLE by MOST PEOPLE ON EARTH. I refuse to be certain about anything until after it happens and I can remember it, and even then I constantly doubt my own recollections because what if we're in Dark City and the Strangers are constantly editing us?

"Moonage Daydream" said:I guess I would just sum it up as "there is no reason for science to look for evidence of God" instead of "there is no God."

I disagree. I would say that the way that many (most? [globally speaking]) people use religion as a means to oppress minorities within their power structures and stifle innovations that threaten the majority agenda. That is as good a reason as any to try to undermine their fundamental assumptions (i.e., that a god exists and it is a supreme moral arbiter). Admittedly, this is due to my belief that science can, in fact, tell us what is moral and my life-long desire to say "fuck you guys" to those that hold power in the most philosophically rigorous way I can.

What I'm trying to get across (drunkenly) is that if God (or any supernatural entity) does not exist, we have a moral responsibility to disabuse ourselves and everyone else we can of that fantasy and ground our existences in what is real--for the sake of everyone's long-run happiness going forward on a multi-generational scale. If a supernatural thing does exist, then we ought to treat it the same as anything else and study the phenomenon scientifically to the best of our increasingly competent ability.

Moonage Daydream 3 years ago on 12/19/11Equipped: Link's Boomerang named "I wish I knew how to quit you"

Okay, but remember that every scientist who is looking for evidence of God is NOT trying to invent personal jetpacks or sexbots

Really, though, I can't imagine what sort of evidence there could be for a god. It seems contrary to the very concept of what a god is (as opposed to just a very powerful non-supernatural being) to find evidence of it. If something is not falsifiable, it ought to be irrelevant, but the fact that the majority of the people on this planet seem to think there is some supernatural force that defies reason makes disproving it worthwhile.

Only that's not possible. Which is infuriating because damn if religion isn't being used to hold back progress all over the place.

Lord_BullGod 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Triforce named "ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL!!!!!!!!"

My mom's church is already gathering food and clothes immediately to be shipped to Cagayan de Oro, a city in the Philippines where I have family that just got kinda jacked up. I really don't like to think that religion is such an awful concept that, as you say, holds back progress all over the place.

Moderator John Booty Says:

Fflewddur Fflam 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Tentacle named "Like I could... Take On The World!"

Lord_BullGod said:My mom's church is already gathering food and clothes immediately to be shipped to Cagayan de Oro, a city in the Philippines where I have family that just got kinda jacked up. I really don't like to think that religion is such an awful concept that...

Are you suggesting that people need religion to be charitable and compassionate?

If this is Andrew's drunk posting, I have to make sure I never get smashed alone with him lest we wake up with matching HAIL SAGAN ab tattoos

Moderator John Booty Says:

John Booty 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Sparkledonkey's Gallbladder

I disagree. I would say that the way that many (most? [globally speaking]) people use religion as a means to oppress minorities within their power structures and stifle innovations that threaten the majority agenda.

I know you're drunk but is this really what you want to say?

I'd agree that most religious organizations over a certain size have some problems.

But many or most individuals using religion like that? Man, this really just does not match up with my thirty-five years of experience on this planet at all.

That's at least as bad as saying that atheists are nihilists that don't believe in anything and hate everybody and whatever other cartoonish things are said about atheists.

PS: Also, I flagged Bullgod's post since it was like an actual factual thing that is happening, not because... oh, nevermind, I realized it's the grownup posting all-stars here and I don't have to explain because nobody is a crybaby. Whew.

John Booty 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Sparkledonkey's Gallbladder

Fflewddur Fflam said:

Are you suggesting that people need religion to be charitable and compassionate?

I just typed out something really long and intentionally deleted it. I'll keep it really short and sweet.

He wasn't remotely suggesting that; it was a reply to Andrew's assertion that many/most people involved with religion are rotten.

Also, the number of people that Bullgod has helped through OB (not a religious institution last I checked) is pretty insane. Including people he's helped in little secret ways that he probably doesn't even think I know about.

Don't say that here, I've been listing us as one to exploit a tax loophole for the last three years

I have to apologize for being even a little "man why do you gotta do that here" because it's ended up a lot more interesting than what this would've been otherwise - three posts from people who've read Hitchens, two obligatory RIP posts from people who haven't and a quick trip to page two. Well, I guess it's the news tab, so it'd be the bottom half of page one.

Lord_BullGod 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Triforce named "ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL!!!!!!!!"

Fflewddur Fflam said:

Are you suggesting that people need religion to be charitable and compassionate?

Absolutely, and judging by your race you probably practice one of those nonsense religions that worship 6 armed elephants or samurai in the sky dumb shit. You ought to turn to your lord and savior, Jesus Christ.

Fflewddur Fflam 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Tentacle named "Like I could... Take On The World!"

John Booty said:

He wasn't remotely suggesting that; it was a reply to Andrew's assertion that many/most people involved with religion are rotten.

Of course he wasn't, which was the point I was making. Simply that a positive aspect of something which is not exclusive to it is hardly a defense of it. There are great things that religion can do which are exclusive to it. That doesn't mean it can't also hold back progress, which was the non sequitur being connected to the charity work.

John Booty said:

Also, the number of people that Bullgod has helped through OB (not a religious institution last I checked) is pretty insane. Including people he's helped in little secret ways that he probably doesn't even think I know about.

I don't understand the relevance of Bullgod's contributions to society in the discussion going on here. Did someone claim he was not a wonderful person and you felt the need to defend him? I'm sure he's awesome.

Lord_BullGod 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Triforce named "ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL!!!!!!!!"

How about you suck my fucking dick

John Booty 3 years ago on 12/20/11Equipped: Sparkledonkey's Gallbladder

Fflewddur Fflam said: things

I PM'd you about this, but I would really like to hear more about what you think. You can do better than just sniping and poking holes in things others have said.

(Years of me pseudo-running this place have hopefully demonstrated that I'm not shy about telling people when they're idiots whose opinions I don't welcome, so I hope it comes across as authentic when I say the opposite to you)

Currently, we have:

25,942 Total Members16,924,954 member profile views248,453 Total Friendships Made4480 people browsing the site right now491,266 forum posts lately11 forum posts in the last week70 Logged-in Members4480 people browsing

Not A Member?

OtakuBooty is open to everybody. Anybody can browse the profiles, and find out about other smart, funny, sexy nerds who are looking for friends, love, or both.

Registered members get extra benefits like being able to post their own profiles for the world to see. Becoming a member is cheap and easy.