skatingtripods wrote: 10 cent head or not, guy has the upside to help us later in the year if he can get his command back.

Haha I think that phrase was first used here, on Sam McDowell... Perfect.

I really like Carrasco. A young, post TJ starter who hits upper 90s, hates to lose... Immature, but that's the coaches' problem. Work it out. I'd love to find a clone of him somewhere and trade for him.

Anyone on the ledge after eight games, well, I'd prefer they stay out there. And preferably dance drunkenly at the very edge.

As to those expecting different things from guys with an established track record, they might want to join the ledgers.

This team is going to strike out a ton and have stretches where they get shut out or score next to nothing because of the nature of the lineup. The leadoff hitter strikes out, the 4th hitter strikes out a lot, Reynolds strikes out a lot and the 9th hitter strikes out a lot. Nearly every damn one of them has that propensity. It's the way the roster and the team is composed. If you're looking (or expecting) something different than that then follow the Gladiators.

If you're expecting Brett Myers to be younger or dominant, Carlos Carrasco to not be an asshole, Bauer to not be inexperienced, Jimenez to not be walking around dead and Masterson not to be inconsistent then, again, that's really on whomever is thinking they're not going to be who are they are a large percentage of the time.

They're not going to beat up David Price every night and they're not going to get run by the Yankees 14-1 every night.

Are they better than last year? I think so. Substantially better? I don't think so.

Not sure what people are looking for. Everything this team is and can be you've pretty much seen in 8 games. The day to game results will vary but who they are will not when all is said and done in October.

Through eight games, the Indians have faced RA Dickey, Brandon Morrow, Mark Buehrle, Matt Moore, Alex Cobb, David Price, Hiroki Kuroda, and Andy Pettitte. In 2012, those eight guys combined for 106 wins, a 3.23 ERA, 1,185 strikeouts and 387 walks in 1,379.1 innings pitched. That’s a 3.06 K/BB ratio. The league average K/BB ratio over the last five seasons is 2.196.

They've faced some excellent pitching. They have good hitters and a lot of talent, but, that's no easy task in the first week and a half of the season.

Let's see what they do with Nova tonight, a guy they can handle.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Not sure why all the haters are out so early(thats not true, i do) I have not seen anything that said the Indians were World Series Contenders, so I really dont see a need to start tearing them down. There is much more excitement and positive feelings this year which to everybody outside of the casual fan is all that is just excitement.

Nobody anointed them anything serious to my knowledge. The best I ever saw was saying theyMIGHT compete for a wild card spot. Which they possibly realistically actually could this year as opposed to years past because they are improved(Just Improved) from a year ago and have some young players with a ton of legit upside such as Bauer, Chisenhall, Santanna, and Kipnis, and some other like Materson and Carrasco who have the ability to be high quality contributers, plus a much better mix of actual major league players.

Again we are only 9 games in. Look, realistically they are a .500 team, but at least this year as a team they have a higher upside.

Anyone on the ledge after eight games, well, I'd prefer they stay out there. And preferably dance drunkenly at the very edge.

As to those expecting different things from guys with an established track record, they might want to join the ledgers.

This team is going to strike out a ton and have stretches where they get shut out or score next to nothing because of the nature of the lineup. The leadoff hitter strikes out, the 4th hitter strikes out a lot, Reynolds strikes out a lot and the 9th hitter strikes out a lot. Nearly every damn one of them has that propensity. It's the way the roster and the team is composed. If you're looking (or expecting) something different than that then follow the Gladiators.

If you're expecting Brett Myers to be younger or dominant, Carlos Carrasco to not be an asshole, Bauer to not be inexperienced, Jimenez to not be walking around dead and Masterson not to be inconsistent then, again, that's really on whomever is thinking they're not going to be who are they are a large percentage of the time.

They're not going to beat up David Price every night and they're not going to get run by the Yankees 14-1 every night.

Are they better than last year? I think so. Substantially better? I don't think so.

Not sure what people are looking for. Everything this team is and can be you've pretty much seen in 8 games. The day to game results will vary but who they are will not when all is said and done in October.

I am an excellent drunk dancer.....in fact, I kind of get paid for it every weekend

I don't want to ledge...I don't. Somewhere deep inside me where you will find puppies playing and rainbows sparkling I want to believe that it will get better.....shouldn't we demand this?

I'm a bit taken aback that, for the Tribe, some folks are ok with "they are what we thought they were" but wouldn't even THINK of giving the Browns the same sort of pass.

I'm just tired of the vortex of suck.......it would be nice to spend a summer looking forward to the Tribe games again.

comish wrote:I'm a bit taken aback that, for the Tribe, some folks are ok with "they are what we thought they were" but wouldn't even THINK of giving the Browns the same sort of pass.

Up until very recently, the Browns continuously got a pass for about 12 years worth of shitty football since the team came back.

I'm not "ok with 'they are what we thought they were'". It's eight games into the fucking season. There's still over 95% of the season left.

Yeah, there are problems. The same ones we knew were there. These aren't surprising developments. The magnitude of the blowout losses is a little bit shocking.

I've said all along that I just want a rotation around league average and let the offense and back end of the pen do its thing. League average starter ERA was 4.39 last season and league average FIP was 4.32. I can't see this rotation being much worse than Baltimore's last season, and they posted a 4.42 (4.50 FIP) and won the wild card.

Hit, win close games, and have a rotation that at least keeps you in the game. That gives them a chance.

Christ, they haven't even played a single division game yet.

If after 40 games, they're 16-24, I'll start to get concerned.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

That being said, this team (And Front office) should know what digging deep holes in April does for the rest of the season. They need to show some signs of life tonight, or it won't matter if they start winning games on the road and stay around .500, this fan base will write off the team under current ownership.

And, as we all know, the Dolans take every opportunity to dump salary.

Perez blew the opening day save last year, and despite saving the next couple dozen opportunities, it didn't matter, all people talked about was Perez blowing the save on opening day. (of course, foot-in-mouth syndrome did not help his cause, either)

Carrasco needs innings, preaching to the choir there. The team needs to quit getting blown out at home in front of a fan base ready for a fresh start, or it truly won't matter how long Carrasco's suspension is, because he'll be traded our let go when the inevitable happens.

skatingtripods wrote:Christ, they haven't even played a single division game yet.

If after 40 games, they're 16-24, I'll start to get concerned.

And I heard all of this during the Wedge years........ledging early then proved to be quite accurate if memory serves.

I'm just salty cuz on a beautiful Tuesday evening I settled in on the porch, tv at the ready, beverage in hand, and kids sedated by technology, only to be back in the house less than 30 minutes later watching Lawn and Order SVU re-runs.

Here's hoping that Colonel Klink or whomever the hell they are trotting out there tonight stems the tide of this ominous Yankee lineup onslaught.

justmebd wrote:My comment was meant in jest, since yesterday's start was so awful.

That being said, this team (And Front office) should know what digging deep holes in April does for the rest of the season. They need to show some signs of life tonight, or it won't matter if they start winning games on the road and stay around .500, this fan base will write off the team under current ownership.

And, as we all know, the Dolans take every opportunity to dump salary.

Perez blew the opening day save last year, and despite saving the next couple dozen opportunities, it didn't matter, all people talked about was Perez blowing the save on opening day. (of course, foot-in-mouth syndrome did not help his cause, either)

Carrasco needs innings, preaching to the choir there. The team needs to quit getting blown out at home in front of a fan base ready for a fresh start, or it truly won't matter how long Carrasco's suspension is, because he'll be traded our let go when the inevitable happens.

googleeph2 wrote:But in each of the last 2 yrs, they got out to a fast start.

True dat, but I'm not sure the general public bought into any of those teams...despite some blathering on this site to the contrary...the realist in all of us just kind of new it wouldn't hold up unless they made a move....which they didn't.

THIS year there seemed to be some honest steam and excitement heading into the season by more than just the die hards.....all of that cache is about to dry up right quick

These discussions always devolve to FOX News/MSNBC-style polarizations, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I think the Dolans and the front office deserve praise for their proactivity this offseason, but I also think it's fair to think that their efforts are a little misguided as far as actual contention goes. And 8 games is nothing but you can't help but be a little worried when the anticipated weak spot of the team has thrown batting practice in several games so far.

"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor

Kingpin74 wrote:These discussions always devolve to FOX News/MSNBC-style polarizations, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I think the Dolans and the front office deserve praise for their proactivity this offseason, but I also think it's fair to think that their efforts are a little misguided as far as actual contention goes. And 8 games is nothing but you can't help but be a little worried when the anticipated weak spot of the team has thrown batting practice in several games so far.

comish wrote:I'm a bit taken aback that, for the Tribe, some folks are ok with "they are what we thought they were" but wouldn't even THINK of giving the Browns the same sort of pass.

Up until very recently, the Browns continuously got a pass for about 12 years worth of shitty football since the team came back.

I'm not "ok with 'they are what we thought they were'". It's eight games into the fucking season. There's still over 95% of the season left.

Yeah, there are problems. The same ones we knew were there. These aren't surprising developments. The magnitude of the blowout losses is a little bit shocking.

I've said all along that I just want a rotation around league average and let the offense and back end of the pen do its thing. League average starter ERA was 4.39 last season and league average FIP was 4.32. I can't see this rotation being much worse than Baltimore's last season, and they posted a 4.42 (4.50 FIP) and won the wild card.

Hit, win close games, and have a rotation that at least keeps you in the game. That gives them a chance.

Christ, they haven't even played a single division game yet.

If after 40 games, they're 16-24, I'll start to get concerned.

But winning close games isn't a skill. Akin to "clutch" hitting.

And if their pitching staff winds up league average it'd be a GD miracle.

I HOPE they win. The reality looks much different.

And note the word "reality," or realist. Cause people want to throw the "hater" word around if you aren't passing out hand jobs. Not sure if I'm supposed to make shit up, but really, ANY team that has about the worst, if not the worst starting pitching in the league - has no real 3-4-5 hitter that's a stud, (save for maybe Santana should he wise up) and will accumulate AS A TEAM a ton of strikeouts.......this is big f'ing trouble. Unless I'm missing all the playoff teams in history that resemble this make-up I'd prefer to be referred to as someone making a cognizant evaluation rather than a hater.

Bottom line - as I mention every spring, if every teams "If's" came through you'd need to win 130 to make the post season. The Tribe has more if's than most, and history shows that teams usually line-up pretty much in an order from fewest ifs, to most ifs.

As someone mentioned above - unrealistic optimism or hater....you can fall somewhere in between - except of these board apparently.

leadpipe wrote:As an Indians fan I could wish the starting pitching was halfway decent. Or I could call it like I see it. Don't see how in any way that's a product of "only being happy when I'm bitching."

You could. And nobody would dispute you. I've given a best-case scenario, and, you're right, league average is not likely, though I'm sure I could give a statistical case where it's possible.

My overall point was that some people (FWIW, my comment wasn't directed at you, LP, just happened to be after your post when I got home) seem overly miserable watching and following the Indians. In general, life's hard enough without adding a disappointing baseball team to it. Do you get enjoyment out of watching the Indians in spite of your preconceived notions? If you do, then carry on.

One of the draws of sports for me is the unknown. I don't put my head in the sand regarding the Indians, but I sure as shit try to look at the bright side and the what ifs. If that makes me delusional, so be it.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

skatingtripods wrote:I just don't understand why most of you follow this team.

Because some people are only happy when complaining about something?!

I guess. I mean, if my car is hanging over the 480 bridge and I think it's going to fall, crash, and burn, I'm not going to stay in it and see what happens. I don't think I'd get anything out of it.

Fans shouldn't comment unless it's something positive?

I don't know what Tripods meant with his comment and my reply was nothing more than a tongue in cheek reply.

But, I think the general point that Tripods was trying to make was, this early in the season we know we're flawed, but the team's full of new faces that ownership has spent money on so why not not just watch the games and see what happens for a while before jumping off a cliff.

People talking about blowing it all up, ownership dumping salary, the casual fan giving up on the team etc is just madness for 8 games into a season..... at least that's my take.

skatingtripods wrote:I just don't understand why most of you follow this team.

Because some people are only happy when complaining about something?!

I guess. I mean, if my car is hanging over the 480 bridge and I think it's going to fall, crash, and burn, I'm not going to stay in it and see what happens. I don't think I'd get anything out of it.

Fans shouldn't comment unless it's something positive?

I don't know what Tripods meant with his comment and my reply was nothing more than a tongue in cheek reply.

But, I think the general point that Tripods was trying to make was, this early in the season we know we're flawed, but the team's full of new faces that ownership has spent money on so why not not just watch the games and see what happens for a while before jumping off a cliff.

People talking about blowing it all up, ownership dumping salary, the casual fan giving up on the team etc is just madness for 8 games into a season..... at least that's my take.

daz nailed it.

Obviously, I'm a diehard. I go to a lot of games, watch every game I'm not at, continually look at the statistics throughout the season. Like I said above, life's hard enough. The Indians are an escape for me, shitty or not. I love the game of baseball. I enjoy watching the Indians and I have optimism about their chances. To paraphrase what Kingpin said, there's no in-between. I'm guilty of that. I'm optimistic, so I'm delusional. Yet, I'll go after people giving up on the season after eight games. So, I'm guilty of it, too.

But, isn't it ironic how some people (not just here at TCF) conveniently wait until they've lost two straight and allowed a ton of runs to come out and call the season over? Two days ago, when they were 3-3 and beat David Price and R.A. Dickey on that road trip, most of those people were nowhere to be found.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I don't know what Tripods meant with his comment and my reply was nothing more than a tongue in cheek reply.

But, I think the general point that Tripods was trying to make was, this early in the season we know we're flawed, but the team's full of new faces that ownership has spent money on so why not not just watch the games and see what happens for a while before jumping off a cliff.

People talking about blowing it all up, ownership dumping salary, the casual fan giving up on the team etc is just madness for 8 games into a season..... at least that's my take.

I will note something I have noted for years. The team needs the casual fans as much if not more than most teams.

As I said above, it will be entertaining either way. Do I want them to blow it up? No. I'm eager to see what kind of moves Francona makes. I'm eager to see whether he can figure out the problems Kipnis has or if he's just a lost cause.

It is tough sitting beside the guy at work that is a Red's fan. He keeps on reminding me that they got Choo and we got Stubbs.

1Perry wrote: It is tough sitting beside the guy at work that is a Red's fan. He keeps on reminding me that they got Choo and we got Stubbs.

If he is a Reds fan, by definition he is extremely baseball-smart. It's in their blood, don't you know?

So, of course he:1) Knew Choo could hit, before last month (sure he did)2) Understands that Choo is going to want $48mil over 4 yrs after this season3) Knows that Choo will likely walk, due to payroll the Reds have tied up4) Realizes that Stubbs was a throw-in5) 'Gets it' that the real trade the Indians made was one yr of Choo for several yrs of a FOR prospect.

leadpipe wrote:As an Indians fan I could wish the starting pitching was halfway decent. Or I could call it like I see it. Don't see how in any way that's a product of "only being happy when I'm bitching."

You could. And nobody would dispute you. I've given a best-case scenario, and, you're right, league average is not likely, though I'm sure I could give a statistical case where it's possible.

My overall point was that some people (FWIW, my comment wasn't directed at you, LP, just happened to be after your post when I got home) seem overly miserable watching and following the Indians. In general, life's hard enough without adding a disappointing baseball team to it. Do you get enjoyment out of watching the Indians in spite of your preconceived notions? If you do, then carry on.

One of the draws of sports for me is the unknown. I don't put my head in the sand regarding the Indians, but I sure as shit try to look at the bright side and the what ifs. If that makes me delusional, so be it.

Pretty sure it's my fault that this thread degenerated into what it did, sorry for giving offense....

Sort of

Isn't that what a game thread is for? To be a bit irrational (which I know I can be), to REACT irrationally and emotionally during a game? (Which I know I do)

I feel like we've covered this territiory before

You won't catch me dropping "they blow" posts on any of the other analytical threads that happen here.....but in a game thread...YES...which, IMO, is what game threads are for.....reactionary posts.

I will be just as reactionary and irrational during a game on the positive side as well.....I just didn't happen to have opportunity during the Price game.

Check my born on date if you think I "came out of the woodwork" I've been around awhile.

Since I can't legally take out my frustrations on my wife, kids, the cat, my neighbors, or Peeker...what's a long suffering fan to do?

leadpipe wrote:As an Indians fan I could wish the starting pitching was halfway decent. Or I could call it like I see it. Don't see how in any way that's a product of "only being happy when I'm bitching."

You could. And nobody would dispute you. I've given a best-case scenario, and, you're right, league average is not likely, though I'm sure I could give a statistical case where it's possible.

My overall point was that some people (FWIW, my comment wasn't directed at you, LP, just happened to be after your post when I got home) seem overly miserable watching and following the Indians. In general, life's hard enough without adding a disappointing baseball team to it. Do you get enjoyment out of watching the Indians in spite of your preconceived notions? If you do, then carry on.

One of the draws of sports for me is the unknown. I don't put my head in the sand regarding the Indians, but I sure as shit try to look at the bright side and the what ifs. If that makes me delusional, so be it.

Pretty sure it's my fault that this thread degenerated into what it did, sorry for giving offense....

Sort of

Isn't that what a game thread is for? To be a bit irrational (which I know I can be), to REACT irrationally and emotionally during a game? (Which I know I do)

I feel like we've covered this territiory before

You won't catch me dropping "they blow" posts on any of the other analytical threads that happen here.....but in a game thread...YES...which, IMO, is what game threads are for.....reactionary posts.

I will be just as reactionary and irrational during a game on the positive side as well.....I just didn't happen to have opportunity during the Price game.

Check my born on date if you think I "came out of the woodwork" I've been around awhile.

Since I can't legally take out my frustrations on my wife, kids, the cat, my neighbors, or Peeker...what's a long suffering fan to do?

skatingtripods wrote:All it took was one condescending post by me to wake this forum up again. Mission accomplished.

There's also nothing wrong in analyzing a moment (or many moments ) in a game thread. I'd just suggest that it's about as valuable in a given game as making a general statement about a team or player or result over the same slice of the season.

Point being (and I'm certainly not excluding myself from the critique) is that game threads are many things to many people. None of them wrong or out of bounds as long as it's taken in context.

I get as frustrated, emotional, prone to rant as anyone. Probably more so. I need to do a better job myself of going with a live and let live approach on them. We all want and hope for the same thing.

1Perry wrote: It is tough sitting beside the guy at work that is a Red's fan. He keeps on reminding me that they got Choo and we got Stubbs.

If he is a Reds fan, by definition he is extremely baseball-smart. It's in their blood, don't you know?

So, of course he:1) Knew Choo could hit, before last month (sure he did)2) Understands that Choo is going to want $48mil over 4 yrs after this season3) Knows that Choo will likely walk, due to payroll the Reds have tied up4) Realizes that Stubbs was a throw-in5) 'Gets it' that the real trade the Indians made was one yr of Choo for several yrs of a FOR prospect.

Serious? You understand that not everyone takes their ribbing of fans of other teams not quite this seriously right?