66 posts in this topic

Frank Merton 14,858

Oh I suspect its all very complicated, but Roman slavery as an institution disappeared about the same time Christianity became dominant and was replaced by serfdom, a completely different thing. The later abolishments of slavery had to do with places where it had been reintroduced. I think the lack of a need to develop labor-saving institutions and devices was the main reason.

Of course a number of inventions, such as the stirrup, the printing press, compasses, and who knows what may also have been necessary precursors.

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Everdred 132

The "ancients", especially the Romans and the Greeks left us lots of self adulation on how and what they did, I fail to see astronomy among them. But astrology was very common in Greece, where the exact hour is less relevant than the exact day. The ascendent theory was not introduced to astrology until the 17-18th century. And only there you need to know the hour. And as we see by the known machines, that is what they were used for: astrology, not astronomy.

The Ancient Greeks and Romans were quite advanced astronomers. They made precise observations and developed astronomical models to explain observed phenomena, including models that dealt with complex problems like retrograde motion. Of course they didn't quite get everything right, but they did remarkable work.

And note that water clocks were widespread in antiquity for use with astronomy and other applications.

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questionmark 11,343

The Ancient Greeks and Romans were quite advanced astronomers. They made precise observations and developed astronomical models to explain observed phenomena, including models that dealt with complex problems like retrograde motion. Of course they didn't quite get everything right, but they did remarkable work.

And note that water clocks were widespread in antiquity for use with astronomy and other applications.

Water clocks were not really precise enough, their dials were adequate to show 20 minutes time lapses and were not as common as you want to make us believe. In all of Greece there was demonstrably one. And there was a whole new law created for its use and the rights citizens had to inform themselves about the time.

After the Greek, the Alexandrian had a water clock 100 years before the first one came to Rome, in 10 AD erected by Augustus in the Campus Martius. Not until Trajan's reign (~100 AD) did it become fashionable to own a clock at all (no matter if sundial or water clock).

And the Roman time pieces were hardly precise, as they tried to divide the day (no matter if Summer or Winter) in 12 equal parts, something that never quite worked. By the time it occurred to somebody that day and night might have different hours the Roman empire was on a very steep decline.

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questionmark 11,343

Oh I suspect its all very complicated, but Roman slavery as an institution disappeared about the same time Christianity became dominant and was replaced by serfdom, a completely different thing. The later abolishments of slavery had to do with places where it had been reintroduced. I think the lack of a need to develop labor-saving institutions and devices was the main reason.

Of course a number of inventions, such as the stirrup, the printing press, compasses, and who knows what may also have been necessary precursors.

Not really, all you have to do to understand history is to follow the money. Things are seldom implemented "for the hell of it". They are to achieve a gain.

Could it be that we re construct antikythera mechanism wrongly, could it be that also have had time keeping and with it help sailors to know longitude?

Its more logic to have watch on ship then astronomical model.

yes, could be, and as soon as you have some evidence that it is so please wake me up. But the people working on these things generally are not idiots, and there is nothing to gain by identifying a clock as an astronomical computer.

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,338

yes, could be, and as soon as you have some evidence that it is so please wake me up. But the people working on these things generally are not idiots, and there is nothing to gain by identifying a clock as an astronomical computer.

Because of founded parts they constructed astronomic model doesnt mean that someone couldnt construct a watch.

What do you think, what would you bring on the sea, watch or model for study?

I dont called those guys idiots. Just that there might be another story.

Maps could be evidence. Artifacts. Its strech but still.

But I found logic as starting point of my working hypothesis.

Edited February 16, 2013 by the L

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Everdred 132

Water clocks were not really precise enough, their dials were adequate to show 20 minutes time lapses and were not as common as you want to make us believe. In all of Greece there was demonstrably one. And there was a whole new law created for its use and the rights citizens had to inform themselves about the time.

After the Greek, the Alexandrian had a water clock 100 years before the first one came to Rome, in 10 AD erected by Augustus in the Campus Martius. Not until Trajan's reign (~100 AD) did it become fashionable to own a clock at all (no matter if sundial or water clock).

And the Roman time pieces were hardly precise, as they tried to divide the day (no matter if Summer or Winter) in 12 equal parts, something that never quite worked. By the time it occurred to somebody that day and night might have different hours the Roman empire was on a very steep decline.

Simple water clocks were perfectly common (a pot with a hole, or two pots of which one had a hole), though obviously the larger more advanced types were rarer and restricted to the upper class. But they were accurate enough for much of the astronomy done in the period, which wasn't really surpassed until Galileo (and he himself used water clocks in his own laboratory, in fact using them to measure the timing of pendulums).

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questionmark 11,343

Simple water clocks were perfectly common (a pot with a hole, or two pots of which one had a hole), though obviously the larger more advanced types were rarer and restricted to the upper class. But they were accurate enough for much of the astronomy done in the period, which wasn't really surpassed until Galileo (and he himself used water clocks in his own laboratory, in fact using them to measure the timing of pendulums).

Now you surely can quote a classic work about astronomy that required a clock too, can't you?

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TheSearcher 312

Because of founded parts they constructed astronomic model doesnt mean that someone couldnt construct a watch.

What do you think, what would you bring on the sea, watch or model for study?

I dont called those guys idiots. Just that there might be another story.

Maps could be evidence. Artifacts. Its strech but still.

But I found logic as starting point of my working hypothesis.

But people DID construct time pieces in those days, however the mechanism this thread is about is not one of them. This was clearly an astrological mechanism or something that might be used for navigation. The latter being a tad more important on a ship than a time piece, to be honest.

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,338

But people DID construct time pieces in those days, however the mechanism this thread is about is not one of them. This was clearly an astrological mechanism or something that might be used for navigation. The latter being a tad more important on a ship than a time piece, to be honest.

Searcher, time keeping IS most important thing for navigation. If you want I can explain it to you. I also recently just found out that.