Move over Reg: DUP marching to UVF and UDA tune

The DUP’s South Down loyalist band have been accused of participating in a sectarian parade aimed at exacerbating tensions in Ballymena, only a matter of weeks after loyalists killed young catholic Michael McIlveen in the town. Marching with bands carrying UVF flags and to pro-UDA chants, the South Down DUPers deliberately stopped outside All Saints catholic church to bang out some loyalist tunes.

Update: A number of contributors have rightly pointed out that the Kilcluney Volunteers are a separate entity from the South Down DUP flute band- my sincerest to the Vols of Kilcluney.

The DUP band, however, continues to be in the spotlight, with the Irish News (subs reqd) carrying a photograph of the band on parade in the controversial Ballymena parade, which included a band named after a UVF man killed during the 1970s.

Whilst not responsible for organising the Rathfriland parade at the weekend- as I earlier indicated- the decision by the South Down DUP band to stop outside a catholic church and play ‘No Pope in Rome’ has caused something of a stir locally.

About Chris Donnelly

Yeah, yeah. I live the hypothetical street. You live somewhere on the other side of town.

“Me being me doesn’t me that I triumph over you, hate you or disrespect you.”

But joining an anti-Catholic organisation, and then insisting on your right to an offensive march down my street without even meeting me to discuss my objections, sometimes carrying paramilitary falgs and singing inappropriate songs might. And then we also put it i the context of history where it certainly was a reminder to the Catholic population of their place, and thinjgs begin to add up.

Prince Eoghan

Kensei.

Give up, he get’s it. Won’t admit it, it all boils down to common decency. You banging your head against a brick wall, won’t make any difference.

darth rumsfeld

“Darth reveals himself as a secret Mary Whitehouse Experience fan. Perhaps he watches South Park too”

..that’s all a bunch of tree-hugging crap

kensei

“Give up, he get’s it. Won’t admit it, it all boils down to common decency. You banging your head against a brick wall, won’t make any difference.”

I am happy to provide as many oppurtunities as needed for loyalists to show themselves up.

Prince Eoghan

I got seriously bored with the spin-doktoring. I think this may be appropriate.

The Orange voices may be getting shriller but they are also becoming noticably fewer which can only be an improvement.

Only a few years ago the beginnng of the marching season meant that we were buried under posts telling us how well the ‘worldwide’ Orange Order was doing. Northern Ireland’s equivalent of the first cuckoo.

Now that pretence is virtually abandoned. Luv Ulster was a last desperate attempt to march the troops up and down the same old hills. It’s over, for Orangies even more than for republicans.

Garibaldy

I thought Love Ulster was designed to keep the UDA occupied and help it ease at last out of violence, hence Jackie Mc Donald’s prominent role.

Darth,

the important question is do you know watch American Dad.

darth rumsfeld

“The Orange voices may be getting shriller but they are also becoming noticably fewer which can only be an improvement.”

Ah, how warm the glow of being cherished as a child of the Irish nation. Why not just spit it out and tell us all to go back where we came from?

lib2016

darth,

No, just modernise your ideas to become more inclusive, treat people with a little integrity rather than concentrating on pointscoring and put your feet up.

Republicans have had to do it, none more so than those with a Catholic nationalist background, and it is happening to unionists as well.

The Defenders may have had a case in their day but that day is long over. The same goes for Orange supporters.

Prince Eoghan

Republicans have had to do it, none more so than those with a Catholic nationalist background, and it is happening to unionists as well.

Totally disagree with you, as far as sectarianism goes there is no comparison. In a league of their own, anyone reading this thread would bear out the reluctance to engage at a substantive level on the issue. If Norn Iron ever enter a nit-picking comp or most definately a fan-dancing soiree, I know who my money is on. A bit more honesty, less whataboutery is required.

From reading this thread, it’s pretty clear that paramilitary-linked bands are more than welcome at Orange parades, and that such bands often carry banners or flags or whatever, honoring various loyalist “heroes”. And it seems that both you and FD think that objecting to such displays is somehow an attack on British or Protestant “culture”.

Have I got that right?

If so, then I suggest that both darth and fd need a full-blown reality check. Loyalist paramilitaries killed 686 Catholic [b]civilians[/b] And you really believe that it approbriate to parade emblems glorifying such killers through Catholic communities. Or, worse, parading UDA, UVF flags through Catholic communities?

Darth, are you telling us that Catholics are wrong to be offended at such behavior. FD, are you saying the same?

And, Sutton has identified 715 or so killings by unionist paramilitaries as “sectarian”. And some 155 or so by republicans as “sectarian”.

Case closed, sez I. Drop the pedantry, FD, and open your eyes. Stop the point scoring, darth, and face reality.

darth rumsfeld

“Have I got that right?” Not even remotely, but I don’t suspect you could be accused of trying too hard.

“From reading this thread, it’s pretty clear that paramilitary-linked bands are more than welcome at Orange parades, and that such bands often carry banners or flags or whatever, honoring various loyalist “heroes”.”

no they’re not- in fact they are specifically banned. I was at a meeting only last night when the guidelines on bands and flags were repeated, and in my part of NI there have been no breaches.Noone denies that there are some paramilitary connected bands, but they are not connected to orange lodges, and should not be regarded as part of the orange order, any more than -say the Wolfe Tones singing IRA ditties at celtic FC would mean the club supported paramilitaries. But unless you’ve only found slugger this week you’ll know this already.

“And, Sutton has identified 715 or so killings by unionist paramilitaries as “sectarian”. And some 155 or so by republicans as “sectarian”. ”

And the point is? If you’re trying to accuse loyalist paramilitaries of sectarianism, it’s not exactly a controversial idea. The fact that you throw in this set of statistics in attempting to prove the orange is anti-catholic is very insightful. Any mud you can throw at themmuns is ok. It’s like me trying to attack the IRA and throwing in half a page of examples of paedophile priests-sure they’re all “that lot” aren’t they?-type of argument.

We have no links with loyalist paramilitaries- and if there are individual members who are/were that’s only a ground for valid criticism when you apply a uniform standard to all organisations- so I’ll take that criticism seriously when republicans condemn organisations with IRA past and present members-you know- like Sinn Fein. I’m all for rounding up all IRA/UVF/UDA/LVF/INLA members and putting them in a compound in Maghaberry. I don’t know Eddie mcIlwaine but frankly I don’t like him and would much prefer him to occupy himself somewhere else, but I won’t be lectured by people who have the temerity to put forward a convicted bomber as a suitable First Citizen for the city that suffered Abercorn and Oxford Street.

“Darth, are you telling us that Catholics are wrong to be offended at such behavior.” catholics, protestants, orangemen-should all be offended by paramilitaries. I certainly am. That’s why I wouldn’t be part of an organisation that parades UDA flags through catholic communities- and none of the organisations i belong to, for all their shortcomings,does.

Interseting that only bob has tried to define our anti-catholicism. Where are the rest of the Shinners this week? Out in the back garden witha tin of Harp?

[i]”no they’re not- in fact they are specifically banned. I was at a meeting only last night when the guidelines on bands and flags were repeated, and in my part of NI there have been no breaches.”[/i]

So, you are telling me that in your “part of Northern Ireland” there are no bands cvonnected to loyalist paramilitary groups and no UDA, UVF, UFF, etc. flags carried in any parades in your part. That never happens. So, what part of NI is that, darth? Just so we can hear from Catholics who live there and hear if they agree with you. I wonder if they will agree with your observations.

Or are they the supporters who join your parade? But, darth, if an OO parade calls them out and the OO does not protest that they are breaking the Order’s rules and does not protest their presence in the OO’s oarade, then the OO can hardly object if it gets the blame, too, When all is said and done, if they march in an OO parade, the OO is responsible for their behavior if it does not protest their presence,

[i]”they are not connected to orange lodges, and should not be regarded as part of the orange order.”[/i]

Wrong. If they march in an OO parade and the Order allows them, then the lodges have made them a part of the OO. Simple as that. If the lodges protested their presence, you might have a case for this little bit of illogic, but I have yet to hear of any lodges protesting the presence of paramilitaries among the supporters.

Bottom line: it’s an OO parade, the OO is responsible for the behavior or misbehavior of everybody who marches,

[i]”And the point is? If you’re trying to accuse loyalist paramilitaries of sectarianism, it’s not exactly a controversial idea.”[/i]

And the point is very simple, i.e. Cathopics just might not like the idea of the OO dragging such killers into their communities. Not too difficult to grasp, is it? By the way, I’m not demonizing those thugs as you seem to think — they’ve done that all by themselves. Just pointing out that the people they targetted just might have a legitimate complaint if the OO marches the thugs through thier community.

[i]”We have no links with loyalist paramilitaries- and if there are individual members who are/were that’s only a ground for valid criticism when you apply a uniform standard to all organisations- so I’ll take that criticism seriously when republicans condemn organisations with IRA past and present members-you know- like Sinn Fein.”[/i]

But, you create a link when you allow such organizations to join your parade without protest. Sorry, darth, if you don’t object to the presence of such organizations in your parade, then you have given them your blessing and linked yourself to the organization.

As individuals, anyone can march with whatever organization is willing to accept them and no one should care at all. But, the subject of this discussion is organizations marching. Please address the issue.

[i]”I won’t be lectured by people who have the temerity to put forward a convicted bomber as a suitable First Citizen for the city that suffered Abercorn and Oxford Street.”[/i]

But, darth, you seem to have no problem with a First Minister who has preached hatred for some 50 years and is reponsible for far more violence and death than said First Citizen. Secondly, if the law permits such a man to run for and hold office, then I’m afraid your tender feelings really don’t matter too much as long as he gets the votes in a fair and open election, Vote against him! Be my guest! But, don’t tell your fellow citizens who are Catholic that they must accept the thugs marching past their front doors. They should have the same chance to vote against the thugs parading in their communities as you have to vote aginst the convicted terrorist.

[i]”catholics, protestants, orangemen-should all be offended by paramilitaries.”[/i]

Fair enough, but, darth, you don’t really seem to be too offended by the loyalist paramilitaries. Nor does the Orange Order which has yet to protest their presence in OO marches. Sorry, darth, but the actions of the Order don’t seem to match your words.

It all sounds good, but the actions needed to do the job are lacking. Actions DO speak louder than words, darth.

Harry

It’s very simple; nationalists, whatever their shortcomings in the eyes of some, do not parade through unionist residential areas. Unionists do. Unionists even do so in a town where a child was killed in a sectarian attack just a few weeks ago. This is not the action of reasonable people; these people are nutters and there’s a lot of them.

There is no justification for this behaviour, no justification for parading through a residential area year after after and intimidating the people who live there. Nationalists do not engage in this kind of barbarity. That is why at some point in the not too distant future it is inevitable that if the OO do not stop this behaviour the guns are going to come out and they’ll be blown out of it.

Prince Eoghan

Harry.

You always have to go one better, don’t you.

Just stick to the eggs pal.

Harry

What else do you suggest? Accept it year after year without change?

I am aware that unionism has few strategies available to it in the coming years vis a vis the constitutional situation. Such options as they are seem to me to be:

1/ Do nothing a la DUP 2/ Come to an historic settlement with nationalism that will inevitably mean the dismantling of a large part of the northern state and much closer constitutional links with the south 3/ Provoke civl war in the hope of a bringing about repartition.

Which do you think they’re going to choose? In the meantime do you think a community should allow itself to be subjected to annual invasion and intimidation? That’s downright unamerican.

Prince Eoghan

Harry.

Notice that there is no plan for the future. A promise of stagnation seems to enthrall Unionists. I wait with baited breath for Hain’s plan B, as has been exhibited on here someone needs to give the haters’ a shove. A hard one at that, unfortunately I too share your frustration but there is not yet the universal desire to hit the fascists where it hurts.

Funny the things that amuses people isn’t it. Did the village idiot not used to get it when dolts like this were bored, sure this was before nigrahs’ and Taigs’ became fair game.

johnny jump up

listening to some of the defence of the oo here (darths in particular) struck me with a thought…

is it possible that young people are joining the oo today not as an expression of their sectarianism, but rather that they feel under threat (seeing the rise of the nationalists), and TRULY see the oo as an expression of ulster protestantism?

this would mean a difference between the older generation and the new … not an unusual phenomenon.

Nevin

Millie, do you imagine IPEC to be an independent human rights organisation or fellow-travellers of militant Irish republicanism?