We have that now. If you stop in say, NYC/IAD and then change in AMS/DXB/LHR, etc. to your destination (if a major city)---that's two stops.

The benefit (whether KL/DL or an ME3) would be the non-stop to the European port of entry. However, If it is an ME3 carrier, then flying into AMS is easy, but then getting to another European city (by plane) would require a trip to DOH/AUH/DXB first before flying back to Europe.... If going to say India or Japan, one could fly KL CLE-AMS-destination. But if an ME3, it would be CLE-Europe-DXB/AUH/DOH-India/Japan. So my hope is its still KL/DL, but I'd still happily take QR or an UAE carrier over nothing at all. Ironically, it wouldn't be a non-stop to the airline's home base and, though "Europe" is a bigger destination for CLE than Qatar or the UAE, the right city must be chosen as connections between European cities won't be easy unless partners are used.

^If it did happen, it'd be because they could capture a currently untapped market with great demand. DTW has great European service. CLE is a 4-5MM person market, the largest city in the US without non-stop service to the European mainland. They would be filling a market that UA and others have failed to do so thus far.

We have that now. If you stop in say, NYC/IAD and then change in AMS/DXB/LHR, etc. to your destination (if a major city)---that's two stops.

The benefit (whether KL/DL or an ME3) would be the non-stop to the European port of entry. However, If it is an ME3 carrier, then flying into AMS is easy, but then getting to another European city (by plane) would require a trip to DOH/AUH/DXB first before flying back to Europe.... If going to say India or Japan, one could fly KL CLE-AMS-destination. But if an ME3, it would be CLE-Europe-DXB/AUH/DOH-India/Japan. So my hope is its still KL/DL, but I'd still happily take QR or an UAE carrier over nothing at all. Ironically, it wouldn't be a non-stop to the airline's home base and, though "Europe" is a bigger destination for CLE than Qatar or the UAE, the right city must be chosen as connections between European cities won't be easy unless partners are used.

flymco753 wrote:

^On top of that, why would an ME3 start CLE before DTW? Unless they’re trying to capture Detroit traffic to use CLE. Sorry if I’m “hijacking” this thread but that’s my two-cents.

I'll save you the trouble, it isn't one of the US3. There about 10 different reasons I can think of right off the top of my head, as to why it wouldn't be. EI to DUB, DE to FRA, or DL to AMS/CDG(KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route) are the most likely, if the prediction he made is true.

I'll save you the trouble, it isn't one of the US3. There about 10 different reasons I can think of right off the top of my head, as to why it wouldn't be. EI to DUB, DE to FRA, or DL to AMS/CDG(KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route) are the most likely, if the prediction he made is true.

Aer Lingus is an intriguing suggestion. They already serve a secondary market in the US, BDL, and are starting PHL in March 2018. They also serve over an additional 100 destinations across the world through codeshare and interline agreements with Air Canada, British Airways, Etihad Airways, Flybe, JetBlue and United Airlines.

Aer Lingus is an intriguing suggestion. They already serve a secondary market in the US, BDL, and are starting PHL in March 2018. They also serve over an additional 100 destinations across the world through codeshare and interline agreements with Air Canada, British Airways, Etihad Airways, Flybe, JetBlue and United Airlines.

Is it clear that IAG will survive Brexit intact? Except for that cloud over the deal, EI would be a nice add for CLE.

DL to AMS is the only possibility that makes sense IMO. The others lack a suitable aircraft for the mission. While In would love to see a Lufty or KLM 330 in here, I don't see it happening, at least to start. A DL 752 to AMS is the answer and I would be shocked if it was anyone else.

Aer Lingus is an intriguing suggestion. They already serve a secondary market in the US, BDL, and are starting PHL in March 2018. They also serve over an additional 100 destinations across the world through codeshare and interline agreements with Air Canada, British Airways, Etihad Airways, Flybe, JetBlue and United Airlines.

PHL is a OW Hub. Further, EI has stated they are attempting to join the BA/AA Trans-Atlantic Joint Venture, which would likely lead them to eventually join OW (again). So any implication that since EI serves PHL, they should also serve CLE is a bit far reaching, ignoring the even large disparity in PHL-CLE Irish American population numbers (absolute).

I’m sure this has been written about on an LH thread— anyone know if they intend to operate the 321 NEO on translatlantic? And when do they come on line? I agree with the comments that it’s hard to find an airline with a suitable aircraft for something new. Looks like the 320neo, already in the Luft-Hansa fleet, is a tad out of range to fly to Frankfurt.

Aer Lingus is an intriguing suggestion. They already serve a secondary market in the US, BDL, and are starting PHL in March 2018. They also serve over an additional 100 destinations across the world through codeshare and interline agreements with Air Canada, British Airways, Etihad Airways, Flybe, JetBlue and United Airlines.

PHL is a OW Hub. Further, EI has stated they are attempting to join the BA/AA Trans-Atlantic Joint Venture, which would likely lead them to eventually join OW (again). So any implication that since EI serves PHL, they should also serve CLE is a bit far reaching, ignoring the even large disparity in PHL-CLE Irish American population numbers (absolute).

Pretty sure the reference to EI serving "a secondary market in the US, BDL" was not an implication that since EI serves PHL, they should also serve CLE. However, EI is an interesting but unlikely candidate in my opinion.

We have that now. If you stop in say, NYC/IAD and then change in AMS/DXB/LHR, etc. to your destination (if a major city)---that's two stops.

The benefit (whether KL/DL or an ME3) would be the non-stop to the European port of entry. However, If it is an ME3 carrier, then flying into AMS is easy, but then getting to another European city (by plane) would require a trip to DOH/AUH/DXB first before flying back to Europe.... If going to say India or Japan, one could fly KL CLE-AMS-destination. But if an ME3, it would be CLE-Europe-DXB/AUH/DOH-India/Japan. So my hope is its still KL/DL, but I'd still happily take QR or an UAE carrier over nothing at all. Ironically, it wouldn't be a non-stop to the airline's home base and, though "Europe" is a bigger destination for CLE than Qatar or the UAE, the right city must be chosen as connections between European cities won't be easy unless partners are used.

flymco753 wrote:

^On top of that, why would an ME3 start CLE before DTW? Unless they’re trying to capture Detroit traffic to use CLE. Sorry if I’m “hijacking” this thread but that’s my two-cents.

I'll save you the trouble, it isn't one of the US3. There about 10 different reasons I can think of right off the top of my head, as to why it wouldn't be. EI to DUB, DE to FRA, or DL to AMS/CDG(KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route) are the most likely, if the prediction he made is true.

We have that now. If you stop in say, NYC/IAD and then change in AMS/DXB/LHR, etc. to your destination (if a major city)---that's two stops.

The benefit (whether KL/DL or an ME3) would be the non-stop to the European port of entry. However, If it is an ME3 carrier, then flying into AMS is easy, but then getting to another European city (by plane) would require a trip to DOH/AUH/DXB first before flying back to Europe.... If going to say India or Japan, one could fly KL CLE-AMS-destination. But if an ME3, it would be CLE-Europe-DXB/AUH/DOH-India/Japan. So my hope is its still KL/DL, but I'd still happily take QR or an UAE carrier over nothing at all. Ironically, it wouldn't be a non-stop to the airline's home base and, though "Europe" is a bigger destination for CLE than Qatar or the UAE, the right city must be chosen as connections between European cities won't be easy unless partners are used.

flymco753 wrote:

^On top of that, why would an ME3 start CLE before DTW? Unless they’re trying to capture Detroit traffic to use CLE. Sorry if I’m “hijacking” this thread but that’s my two-cents.

I'll save you the trouble, it isn't one of the US3. There about 10 different reasons I can think of right off the top of my head, as to why it wouldn't be. EI to DUB, DE to FRA, or DL to AMS/CDG(KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route) are the most likely, if the prediction he made is true.

We have that now. If you stop in say, NYC/IAD and then change in AMS/DXB/LHR, etc. to your destination (if a major city)---that's two stops.

The benefit (whether KL/DL or an ME3) would be the non-stop to the European port of entry. However, If it is an ME3 carrier, then flying into AMS is easy, but then getting to another European city (by plane) would require a trip to DOH/AUH/DXB first before flying back to Europe.... If going to say India or Japan, one could fly KL CLE-AMS-destination. But if an ME3, it would be CLE-Europe-DXB/AUH/DOH-India/Japan. So my hope is its still KL/DL, but I'd still happily take QR or an UAE carrier over nothing at all. Ironically, it wouldn't be a non-stop to the airline's home base and, though "Europe" is a bigger destination for CLE than Qatar or the UAE, the right city must be chosen as connections between European cities won't be easy unless partners are used.

flymco753 wrote:

^On top of that, why would an ME3 start CLE before DTW? Unless they’re trying to capture Detroit traffic to use CLE. Sorry if I’m “hijacking” this thread but that’s my two-cents.

I'll save you the trouble, it isn't one of the US3. There about 10 different reasons I can think of right off the top of my head, as to why it wouldn't be. EI to DUB, DE to FRA, or DL to AMS/CDG(KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route) are the most likely, if the prediction he made is true.

I'll save you the trouble, it isn't one of the US3. There about 10 different reasons I can think of right off the top of my head, as to why it wouldn't be. EI to DUB, DE to FRA, or DL to AMS/CDG(KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route) are the most likely, if the prediction he made is true.

Aer Lingus is an intriguing suggestion. They already serve a secondary market in the US, BDL, and are starting PHL in March 2018. They also serve over an additional 100 destinations across the world through codeshare and interline agreements with Air Canada, British Airways, Etihad Airways, Flybe, JetBlue and United Airlines.

PHL is a OW Hub. Further, EI has stated they are attempting to join the BA/AA Trans-Atlantic Joint Venture, which would likely lead them to eventually join OW (again). So any implication that since EI serves PHL, they should also serve CLE is a bit far reaching, ignoring the even large disparity in PHL-CLE Irish American population numbers (absolute).

Pretty sure the reference to EI serving "a secondary market in the US, BDL" was not an implication that since EI serves PHL, they should also serve CLE. However, EI is an interesting but unlikely candidate in my opinion.

UA has reduced CLE-BOS to two flights on weekdays through May, although June and out still shows three. Dummy booking or real schedule? I suspect they are fine tuning the hubs and will address things like CLE-BOS with whatever crew time and equipment is left. MKE is still listed also; I figured that would be gone by now.

1. Both WOW and FI do well on their KEF routes2. DL begins SLC3. WN begins MCI4. UA holds on to all of its existing cities5. DL (or KL) adds AMS for fall 20186. F9 SEA becomes year-round OR AS announces CLE-SEA7. WN announces SAN for 2019

UA has reduced CLE-BOS to two flights on weekdays through May, although June and out still shows three. Dummy booking or real schedule? I suspect they are fine tuning the hubs and will address things like CLE-BOS with whatever crew time and equipment is left. MKE is still listed also; I figured that would be gone by now.

What makes you think United will be the first to leave the market? From all accounts I’ve heard, the Southwest flights have had low load factors while the UA flights seem to be about where they were before WN came in the market.

Having already released October numbers, CLE updated their "Facts and Figures" website page to show traffic through September. The last update was June, so maybe they plan to do it quarterly. Extrapolating from Sept-Oct numbers based on prior years' data, it does appear that CLE will break 9 million passengers for 2017 with some room to spare. (Hope we don't have to wait until April to find out.)

1. Both WOW and FI do well on their KEF routes2. DL begins SLC3. WN begins MCI4. UA holds on to all of its existing cities5. DL (or KL) adds AMS for fall 20186. F9 SEA becomes year-round OR AS announces CLE-SEA7. WN announces SAN for 2019

Those are some optimistic predictions. My thoughts1. ok2. Seems possible, but hasn't this route been talked about forever?3. ok4. I'm doubtful5. If another transatlantic route get added to CLE, I doubt it is going to start in the fall6. F9 going year round I highly doubt. AS maybe7. I would be shocked.

Having already released October numbers, CLE updated their "Facts and Figures" website page to show traffic through September. The last update was June, so maybe they plan to do it quarterly. Extrapolating from Sept-Oct numbers based on prior years' data, it does appear that CLE will break 9 million passengers for 2017 with some room to spare. (Hope we don't have to wait until April to find out.)

Even if CLE saw zero growth in November and December, 2017 would have finished with about 9 million passengers. I'm guessing it will probably finish around 9.05 million (which would be more than in 2012 with the United hub).

Given how cold it's been, I'm guessing bookings to Florida are much higher than last winter, which I believe was one of the warmest on record for Cleveland. That should hopefully continue the growth through Spring, but it's going to be hard to make a dent in Frontier's large year over year capacity cuts beginning in May.

I don't have any bold predictions for 2018. I'm betting Frontier will continue to add/delete routes from CLE. Perhaps WN and DL will each add a new destination.

My prediction is it will be an exceptionally boring year. Seems like NEO is at an equilibrium for air service. Great to be back to where we were but we don’t have a focus city big brother like RDU or STL or IND to get the airport to the next level. As I said earlier I can’t put much stock in a Crains prediction issue even if Joe Roman is a good source. It was thoroughly depressing to read NYT article a few days back on all this airport modernization going on around the country and seeing posts here about cle whoop-dee-doo in-line luggage system! So my hope is Kennedy will have wherewithal to announce master facility planning process to include what to do with D. If that happens it will be a good year for me.

Looks like the Facts & Figures section of CLE's website got an overhaul. October figures are posted, as are links to monthly spreadsheets with "Passenger Volume Month over Month" listed for 2017. Wonder why international traffic is down -7.49% YTD. I'm sure there will be a significant uptick in 2018 with FL and WW starting service to KEF.

Looks like the Facts & Figures section of CLE's website got an overhaul. October figures are posted, as are links to monthly spreadsheets with "Passenger Volume Month over Month" listed for 2017. Wonder why international traffic is down -7.49% YTD. I'm sure there will be a significant uptick in 2018 with FL and WW starting service to KEF.

There are few international flights at CLE which make the passenger numbers highly variable. For example, Frontier may have flown CLE-CUN 4x weekly one year and then 3x weekly the next year. That would equate to a sizeable drop in international traffic because the only flights that can offset that are the CRJs to Toronto and United’s Saturday only CUN service. The vast majority of passengers whose final destination is international from CLE aren’t actually boarding an international flight from CLE.

OK, so what are our predictions for CLE for 2018? Food for thought:3. WN begins MCI7. WN announces SAN for 2019

Southwest could add nonstop service to DAL from CLE since DAL is Southwest's home base, since Dallas is one of the top destinations from CLE, since CLE is one of the top destinations from Dallas without nonstop service out of DAL, and since AA is currently the only airline to have year-round nonstop service to DFW from CLE. Southwest had also recently stated that it wants to expand its dominance at Dallas Love Field.

In addition, Southwest had also recently stated that it is already considering serving HOU and FLL nonstop from CLE. Southwest would be able to connect passengers going to international destinations from CLE through HOU and FLL if Southwest adds nonstop service to HOU and FLL from CLE, and Southwest actually wants to expand internationally.

DL to AMS is the only possibility that makes sense IMO. The others lack a suitable aircraft for the mission. While In would love to see a Lufty or KLM 330 in here, I don't see it happening, at least to start. A DL 752 to AMS is the answer and I would be shocked if it was anyone else.

With the statements made by Roman about onward 1 stop connections, I really has to be a European Mainland legacy carrier so your note on AMS, FRA, MUC is probably correct. I don't see a OW Hub outside of LHR that makes sense and "Mainland" kills that one. My money would have been on DUB on EI, but "Mainland" kills that one also.

Way back in the CO days in the CLE forum, there was a lot of chatter on adding CLE>AMS on a 757 and there were a few companies listed as "sponsors" as to why this would happen, approximately 1 year after CLE>CDG. One of the majors was Phillips who has a good size operation in CLE. It's probably the most accurate guess.

Any idea when we'll hear from CLE on this? I can't find a link to the Roman article in Crain's to see if there were more details listed.

Regarding CAK>IAH, I wonder what is prompting this? The CLE>IAH capacity has shrunk greatly in the past few years. On Feb 28 for example: CLE>IAH 4x ERJ and 1x73G. And no 6AM flight either. That's a huge decrease. Maybe siphon a few people from CAK they can't get to CLE?

DoT has released Oct, 17 data. Total 2017YTD domestic CLE traffic 7,339.4K at a load factor of 85.35%. This matches up well with the city's release, missing about 150K international and 100K charter pax which the city included..

I wonder if AF would consider CLE-CDG. It is barely in range of an A320neo (by about 200 km/100 nmi), AF could experiment with it using their Joon brand (although I think AF is convinced that they can make the Ted/Song model work in Europe).

So for 2018 what new routes will F9 add out of CLE?I noticed CLE-MIA was at 54.9%, and MIA-CLE was at 49.7%, will that route stick around? Or will a few of the ATL/IAH/SAN/SFO/LAX be added back?

I think CLE-SAT could work for one...

F9 started a bunch of new MIA routes in October after the hurricane and most new routes had low loads. I’m sure they’ve improved quite a bit since then now that peak season is approaching.

I don’t see F9 adding much at CLE this year. The difficulty with having high density 230 seat aircraft is that’s a lot of seats to fill if it’s not a major destination. I think this is why F9 is now offering connections.

I think CLE’s best chance for stable growth is Southwest. It seems they are comfortable adding a few new routes each year.

Lotta snow outside right now with blowing snow. But, per the FAA, CLE is on normal arrivals and normal departures (with exceptions for certain departures based on their current weather conditions at the arrival airport, such as BOS, YYZ, DCA, JFK, etc.) Looks like the operations folks at Hopkins are doing a great job!