[OKW][ALL] Is late game OKW OP? How should OKW change?

Comments

3 pages discussing about gcs and factions performances, claiming that 1vs1 gcs is influenced by too much factors to be a good example.
Than you come with teamgames that are unbalanced since 2013, what kind of stupid evasive manuver is that.

And yet the topic overall is volks and how they are at the centre of OKW's current balance issues. You first brought into the argument about their performance in relation to rifles, then you were using the GCS as an example of OKW being UP, then you were asking for data showing OKW is OP.

I patiently followed each and every topic.

Volks aren't designed to match rifles in terms of performance, primarily they are too cap and later on screen your more elite units and tanks.

A cash-prize tournament will never be a good source of balance statistics, as players will exploit whatever strategies they can to give them the greatest chance of winning. The Call-in meta was the main example of this.

If OKW are scoring a significantly larger amount of win-streaks across all gamemodes than the other factions when in the hands of the best players (individuals playing a faction to their fullest potential) on the official leaderboards, that correlation of data suggests quite strongly the faction as a whole is overperforming.

It wasn't a "stupid evasive maneuver", it was just doing what you requested.

Each faction need to be able to stand on it's own, and okw, whatever is the reason (call ins/cheese or not) showed to be unable to do that in gcs, and among the players with best performance and most experience in competitive scene that's empyrical data.

Or it could be as explained, the call-in system circumvents the main balance problem with OKW.

That being the fact that OKW can apply huge pressure through remaining agressive and still having the resources to tech, as they have such cost efficient units (volks) performing beyond their price, forcing their opponents to divert resources from their own teching to be able to match them each engagement.

Without call-ins, OKW pulls ahead and then snowballs unstoppably due to access to higher tier units than their opponent, who's own resources are choked by failing to be able to trade as efficiently.

With call-ins, the allied players aren't forced to rely on tech, enabling them match OKW in terms of aggression, putting them on an even footing, or in the case of lend lease or USF armour, overwhelming them through sheer exploitation of resource advantages that call-in meta allows.

Simply put, if you nerf both to appropriate levels, OKW won't dominate the allied stock rosters and current non-call-in reliant commanders, while at the same time putting an end to abuse of the call-in system once and for all.

Which is why as I have explained repeatedly, if you nerf volks performance to match their cost, you must allow Obers to hit the field earlier, as the community; myself included, has repeatedly advocated . That way you are forced to use both units of which have two different dedicated roles, volks for screening and capping, Obers for going to toe with the allied mainlines as your MP based AI damage dealers.

3 pages discussing about gcs and factions performances, claiming that 1vs1 gcs is influenced by too much factors to be a good example.
Than you come with teamgames that are unbalanced since 2013, what kind of stupid evasive manuver is that.

And yet the topic overall is volks and how they are at the centre of OKW's current balance issues. You first brought into the argument about their performance in relation to rifles, then you were using the GCS as an example of OKW being UP, then you were asking for data showing OKW is OP.

I patiently followed each and every topic.

Volks aren't designed to match rifles in terms of performance, primarily they are too cap and later on screen your more elite units and tanks.

A cash-prize tournament will never be a good source of balance statistics, as players will exploit whatever strategies they can to give them the greatest chance of winning. The Call-in meta was the main example of this.

If OKW are scoring a significantly larger amount of win-streaks across all gamemodes than the other factions when in the hands of the best players (individuals playing a faction to their fullest potential) on the official leaderboards, that correlation of data suggests quite strongly the faction as a whole is overperforming.

It wasn't a "stupid evasive maneuver", it was just doing what you requested.

Each faction need to be able to stand on it's own, and okw, whatever is the reason (call ins/cheese or not) showed to be unable to do that in gcs, and among the players with best performance and most experience in competitive scene that's empyrical data.

Or it could be as explained, the call-in system circumvents the main balance problem with OKW.

That being the fact that OKW can apply huge pressure through remaining agressive and still having the resources to tech, as they have such cost efficient units (volks) performing beyond their price, forcing their opponents to divert resources from their own teching to be able to match them each engagement.

Without call-ins, OKW pulls ahead and then snowballs unstoppably due to access to higher tier units than their opponent, who's own resources are choked by failing to be able to trade as efficiently.

With call-ins, the allied players aren't forced to rely on tech, enabling them match OKW in terms of aggression, putting them on an even footing, or in the case of lend lease or USF armour, overwhelming them through sheer exploitation of resource advantages that call-in meta allows.

Simply put, if you nerf both to appropriate levels, OKW won't dominate the allied stock rosters and current non-call-in reliant commanders, while at the same time putting an end to abuse of the call-in system once and for all.

Which is why as I have explained repeatedly, if you nerf volks performance to match their cost, you must allow Obers to hit the field earlier, as the community; myself included, has repeatedly advocated . That way you are forced to use both units of which have two different dedicated roles, volks for screening and capping, Obers for going to toe with the allied mainlines as your MP based AI damage dealers.

And again, if competitive playing isn't a factor of balance, teamgames shouldn't nontheless"
First of all, the performances and balance of a faction can only be measured in 1vs1, where there are less factors influencing the scene.

"Volks aren't designed to match rifles in terms of performance, primarily they are too cap and later on screen your more elite units and tanks.

And who said that.
From what i knwo volks were designed to carry shreck, they don't...so ?

"Or it could be as explained, the call-in system circumvents the main balance problem with OKW. "
The problem doesn't exist in the first place because simply no empirical data says that okw can steamroll enemies without call in.

The only empirical data is that in gcs performed poorly and apparently can't counter cheese with the same efficiency as OST do, so far from being OP, thing you claim with no evidence but teamgames that somehow entered in this discussion.
Teamgames will always be unbalanced and favor axis..

"who's own resources are choked by failing to be able to trade as efficiently"
This is why okw needs a less spammable and more expensive mainline, not a weaker mainline.
The problem is not dropping models, nor late game volks that get melted by wfa mainlines, the problem is how efficiently they trade IF USED RIGHT.

"if you nerf both to appropriate levels, OKW won't dominate the allied stock rosters"
This is outright wrong, volks have no advantage in terms of dps or raw performances at any moment of the match.
They don't win anything without numerical advantage in equal conditions, but the resource war.
If you nerf them they will lose and lose resource war, and cheese or not next gcs okw will get 0 victories.

"Which is why as I have explained repeatedly, if you nerf volks performance to match their cost, you must allow Obers to hit the field earlier, as the community; myself included, has repeatedly advocated . That way you are forced to use both units of which have two different dedicated roles, volks for screening and capping, Obers for going to toe with the allied mainlines as your MP based AI damage dealers."
I said they come late, i never said that anyway they would become viable.
Obers are too much expensive mp wise to be fielded in.
Obers overall are simply not designed to carry okw, because okw will never float on mp if it wasn't for actual volks, and...

"Obers for going to toe with the allied mainlines"

This means nerfing obers to make them viable mp wise, making obers lose their "elite" status, all because of "the original design" you claim to be right one, that was broken in first place and made everyone complain about.

So volks can't have a fighting chance (that they never have right now) with a 30 mp difference of cost, but a 400 mp unit has to go toe to toe with a 280 mp unit.....

Regardless of what happens to volks i feel obers need to come earlier, might even be worth suggesting putting the IR HT or flak trak back in mech, putting the JP4 into med and the walking stuka (current form over nerfed form) into a cheaper schwere that has the stuka ,p4 and obers availible and a side tech for the panther and KT as well as the 37mm (cumulative cost remains more or less the same, but obers and p4 come earlier, both early tiers have fuel AT and the stuka comes a bit later)

@thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
Regardless of what happens to volks i feel obers need to come earlier, might even be worth suggesting putting the IR HT or flak trak back in mech, putting the JP4 into med and the walking stuka (current form over nerfed form) into a cheaper schwere that has the stuka ,p4 and obers availible and a side tech for the panther and KT as well as the 37mm (cumulative cost remains more or less the same, but obers and p4 come earlier, both early tiers have fuel AT and the stuka comes a bit later)

As Obers don't lose their elite role as dedicated anti cqb squad to be watered down to a on steroid mainline aka gren 2.0, i'm happy if they get a better timing.

> @SAY_MY_NAME said:
> @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
> Regardless of what happens to volks i feel obers need to come earlier, might even be worth suggesting putting the IR HT or flak trak back in mech, putting the JP4 into med and the walking stuka (current form over nerfed form) into a cheaper schwere that has the stuka ,p4 and obers availible and a side tech for the panther and KT as well as the 37mm (cumulative cost remains more or less the same, but obers and p4 come earlier, both early tiers have fuel AT and the stuka comes a bit later)
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> As Obers don't lose their elite role as dedicated anti cqb squad to be watered down to a on steroid mainline aka gren 2.0, i'm happy if they get a better timing.

Only thing that i think would be required would be delaying the lmg upgrade until the heavy armour upgrade so they dont start bursting down models too quickly, plus puts more weight on teching.

OKW is most certainly not OP in 4v4 or 3v3. They get hammered by arti and buildings.
They cannot deal well with camping brits,not with penal spam, only halfway decent with rifles.

Their current mechanics make them strange to play and have ripped their flavour by putting units into the wrong buildings, they cannot switch their ressources anymore, cannot make an good AT-blob anymore, have the worst MG,
many overspecialized units and their elite infantry dies in an matter of seconds in active combat, if they get not hit by arti before.

@Nassir_Amit ha detto:
OKW is most certainly not OP in 4v4 or 3v3. They get hammered by arti and buildings.
They cannot deal well with camping brits,not with penal spam, only halfway decent with rifles.

Their current mechanics make them strange to play and have ripped their flavour by putting units into the wrong buildings, they cannot switch their ressources anymore, cannot make an good AT-blob anymore, have the worst MG,
many overspecialized units and their elite infantry dies in an matter of seconds in active combat, if they get not hit by arti before.

We all know how okw recently performed.
Salt apart, the volks and raketen itself hold barely the whole mess togheter and the faction is actually in a bad spot if it can't perform more than 33% win ratio even if we look only at the matches where the top 4 COH2 players played as okw

"WIth the upcoming maxim changes, I do think we will see OKW likely ruling the upcoming GCS, but I guess it is wait and see."

Prophet XD lol

Jokes aside I'm not against giving volks less roles aka less cost efficiency and removing the flame nades, but would require proper adjustments as the faction in the whole is actually UP and perform horribad.

1) Flamethrower for sturmpioneers non-doc.
2) Proper grenades to volks (not broken model 24)...maybe rifle grenade ?
3) Panther not being a piece of trash (that is actually another thread topic)
4) Smoke for stumpios at vet 1 rather than concussion grenade (that nobody ever used XD) and isg as normal vet 0 obiviously.
5) An halftrack to reinforce as the FRP gets eliminated/nerfed with cooldown and stuff, like the sfk250, so is not the same OST gets...

The moment bren is wouldn't be able to gun down mg's crews frontally and double bar rifle wouldn't mop the floor with anything that isn't obers or vet 3 close range panzergrens in equal fighting conditions allies mainline would be able to be less expensive.

That double brens can force off a mg team frontaly is more about the mg then about the expensive to get doulbe bren upgraded is. Simaler with volks forcing off a maxim frontaly. The only thing is volks are a lot cheaper then sections and the maxim is more expensive then the mg34.

Volks can charge and crawl, and throw a flame grenade to maxim (and force retreat/reposition, not kill) because of the suppression, surely not volks.
Is brens can outright kill all mg crew before receiving any suppression, slaughtering any model that switch to gunner.
That's a lot different.
A cheaper IS would have to be toned down, and in general wfa allies are nowhere near being overpriced, with that incredible amount of raw dps and those powerful upgrades that only takes one slot and are nowhere as potent as 2 stg's, or can be double equipped unlike mg42.
Complaining about axis mainline being cheaper is just like complaining that axis armor costs more....you get what you pay for.

@SAY_MY_NAME said:
36:20, a single is frontally murdering a stolen vickers.

Sorry, but that's complete bs, we did not see what happened there, we don't know if MG was deployed or not, we only see a single frame when it just died, we don't know if it even shot a single burst.

And yes, volks are perfectly capable of crawling up to maxim and throwing a nade, there is a reason no one uses maxims after their uber nerfs to the point where even modders admitted they overdid it, leaving conscripts forever with penals as the only viable non doctrinal infantry since the patch and all after it was scrapped.

Volks can charge and crawl, and throw a flame grenade to maxim (and force retreat/reposition, not kill) because of the suppression, surely not volks.
Is brens can outright kill all mg crew before receiving any suppression, slaughtering any model that switch to gunner.
That's a lot different.

My point whas that the maxim should have the staying power with its terrible suppresion against a single volks squad. The flame nade tips it in their favor imidiatly. The mg 34 does not supress the sections fast enough to tip it in its favor. Both need to supress faster.

A cheaper IS would have to be toned down, and in general wfa allies are nowhere near being overpriced, with that incredible amount of raw dps and those powerful upgrades that only takes one slot and are nowhere as potent as 2 stg's, or can be double equipped unlike mg42.
Complaining about axis mainline being cheaper is just like complaining that axis armor costs more....you get what you pay for.

Very true.
However the fact that the maxim and mg42 cost the same but one is miles ahead of the other baffels me. The 2 models do not compensate for this at all. Same with the ost and soviet mortars.

@SAY_MY_NAME said:
36:20, a single is frontally murdering a stolen vickers.

Sorry, but that's complete bs, we did not see what happened there, we don't know if MG was deployed or not, we only see a single frame when it just died, we don't know if it even shot a single burst.

And yes, volks are perfectly capable of crawling up to maxim and throwing a nade, there is a reason no one uses maxims after their uber nerfs to the point where even modders admitted they overdid it, leaving conscripts forever with penals as the only viable non doctrinal infantry since the patch and all after it was scrapped.

And how is that gonna contribute to a discussion about the current state of IS and their price ?
Maxim had to be buffed, we all know that.
Regardless of being caught by surprise, double bren is dps allows them to do that normally even to deployed mg's, and this amount of dps and RA can't be priced less than that.

@SAY_MY_NAME said:
A cheaper IS would have to be toned down, and in general wfa allies are nowhere near being overpriced, with that incredible amount of raw dps and those powerful upgrades that only takes one slot and are nowhere as potent as 2 stg's, or can be double equipped unlike mg42.
Complaining about axis mainline being cheaper is just like complaining that axis armor costs more....you get what you pay for.

Very true.
However the fact that the maxim and mg42 cost the same but one is miles ahead of the other baffels me. The 2 models do not compensate for this at all. Same with the ost and soviet mortars.

It has to be buffed.
Soviet mortar is problematic itself, an eventual overbuff would break the balance easily.
I'm more oriented to a cheaper price tag.

@SAY_MY_NAME said:
36:20, a single is frontally murdering a stolen vickers.

Sorry, but that's complete bs, we did not see what happened there, we don't know if MG was deployed or not, we only see a single frame when it just died, we don't know if it even shot a single burst.

And yes, volks are perfectly capable of crawling up to maxim and throwing a nade, there is a reason no one uses maxims after their uber nerfs to the point where even modders admitted they overdid it, leaving conscripts forever with penals as the only viable non doctrinal infantry since the patch and all after it was scrapped.

And how is that gonna contribute to a discussion about the current state of IS and their price ?
Maxim had to be buffed, we all know that.
Regardless of being caught by surprise, double bren is dps allows them to do that normally even to deployed mg's, and this amount of dps and RA can't be priced less than that.

You do realize that brens do less DPS then LMG42 but cost just as much?
2 brens are barely more effective then single LMG42 and they cost twice as much.

On top of that, since you're talking about scaling, tommies get only 20% of accuracy with vet compared to 40% of grens, which makes brens not only worse from get go, but also scale worse.

Single LMG42 adds ~7 long range DPS to the squad, almost doubling it.
Single Bren adds ~5 long range DPS, two add ~10.
LMG42 will scale to add ~9.8 DPS.
Dual bren will scale to add ~12 DPS.

Barely any DPS difference for twice as much the cost.

If there was ANYTHING wrong with brens, they would be nerfed months ago and since they wasn't, it means they are fine.

And since you claim bren IS can do that to deployed HMG, please go and cement that claim with a replay.
We'll wait.

"If there was ANYTHING wrong with brens, they would be nerfed months ago and since they wasn't, it means they are fine."

I can definetly tell the same for heavy td, duska, sturmtiger......
So panzerfusiliers are fine ?
This means nothing at all lol.

"And since you claim bren IS can do that to deployed HMG, please go and cement that claim with a replay."
That's very possible and happens if the hmg has no cover and is has double bren, dps shows that too.
You can test it in worldbuilder meanwhile..

"If there was ANYTHING wrong with brens, they would be nerfed months ago and since they wasn't, it means they are fine."

I can definetly tell the same for heavy td, duska, sturmtiger......
So panzerfusiliers are fine ?
This means nothing at all lol.

"And since you claim bren IS can do that to deployed HMG, please go and cement that claim with a replay."
That's very possible and happens if the hmg has no cover and is has double bren, dps shows that too.
You can test it in worldbuilder meanwhile..

I will let you on a little secret. If you upgrade a weapon, it does NOT add 100% of its DPS to the squad, it replaces the weapon one of squad members were using previously, therefore a DPS increase = new DPS - old DPS for the model. Its not rocket science.

Tommies have high DPS to begin with, bren have lower DPS then LMG, that means DPS increase from bren is much, much lower then DPS increase from LMG.

@Lazarus and you remember how REs have very low long range DPS and how bren added a LOT of ranged dps for them? Not the same case with tommies because of the above, that is the very reason why only REs were restricted and not tommies.
Please people if you talk about something, make sure you have a clue about it.

@Lazarus and you remember how REs have very low long range DPS and how bren added a LOT of ranged dps for them? Not the same case with tommies because of the above, that is the very reason why only REs were restricted and not tommies.

Actually Tommies weren't restricted because their vet 3 was seen more as a hindrance then a help - turning them in to weapon piñatas. This was not the case with REs. The Bren itself does plenty DPS wise, certainly enough that doubling up and blobbing them was viable. If they were so weak and pathetic, surely Grens with their uber lmg would have cut through them like operation Barbarossa through butter. Yet - twas not to be. It's as if the Bren actually had respectable enough DPS that it didn't matter?

This is completely ignoring the bigger picture, in that Brits are literally just Ost but better, the LMG42 being the one area where Ost actually has any kind of advantage.

@Katitof said:
Please people if you talk about something, make sure you have a clue about it.

How much does a SU-76 barrage cost maybe take the snark and sit on it before you say something silly again.