New York - Conservative Jews Approve Gay Wedding Guidelines

New York - The Conservative branch of American Judaism has formally approved same-sex marriage ceremonies, nearly six years after lifting a ban on ordaining gays and lesbians.

The Committee on Jewish Law and Standards issued the ruling Thursday on a 13-0 vote with one abstention, said Rabbi Elliot Dorff, the committee chairman. The panel of scholars approved two model wedding ceremonies and guidelines for a same-sex divorce. Rabbis can adapt the marriage ceremonies for the couples.

“We acknowledge that these partnerships are distinct from those discussed in the Talmud as ‘according to the law of Moses and Israel,’ but we celebrate them with the same sense of holiness and joy as that expressed in heterosexual marriages,” the legal opinion states.

Conservative Judaism is the second-largest Jewish movement in North America and holds a middle ground between liberal and traditional groups. The Reform and Reconstructionist branches accept gay relationships, while the stricter Orthodox Jewish movement does not. The Conservative law committee lifted the ban on gay ordination in December 2006.

Called the “Covenant of Loving Partners,” the Conservative same-sex marriage document bases the ceremonies on Jewish partnership law. In the covenant, the couple pledges to be faithful. A ring ceremony binds the pair.

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However, the ceremonies do not include kiddushin, or sanctification, in which a groom “acquires” a bride by giving her a ring, which is considered the core of a traditional Jewish wedding. In recent decades, many rabbis have already been altering that part of the ceremony for heterosexual couples by having the bride and groom exchange rings, to signal equality in the marriage.

“The result is still a Jewish marriage,” the legal opinion on gay marriage states.

Dorff, an author of the ruling, said the committee’s discussions with gays and lesbians as the ceremonies were developed found a split in opinion that led the two templates for same-sex marriage. One adheres more closely to the traditional Jewish ceremony, while the other doesn’t.

The divorce includes a “writ of dissolution” — similar to what is known in traditional Jewish marriage as a “get” — that either partner in the same-sex marriage can request.

Dorff said he did not know how many members of the movement’s Rabbinical Assembly perform same-sex marriages. However, many rabbis had already been conducting ceremonies for gays and lesbians that they had developed on their own. Keshet, which advocates for gay and lesbian Jews, has started a public database of rabbis who would perform the ceremony called The Equality Guide.

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:05 PMrebbe123 Says:

2

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:06 PMUpset Says:

"Gay Avek!" this ruling further demonstrates that Conservative Judaism has nothing to do with Hashem or His Torah which openly forbids this sort of activity. Conservative Judaism has long ago been rendered an irrelivent man-made religion and this ruling proves it.

3

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:20 PMgreenstein Says:

4

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:20 PMRangers Goalie Says:

As the great gaon and Tzadik Harav Avigdor Miller Zt"L said when asked about what he thought about the fact the the conservative Jewry movement (at that time) had decided to ordain female rabbis, (he actually said in his quote "female shmahttes") "They are sliding to 7734 (that's hell backwards) already, this just helps grease the pole". This latest move makes sure they stay there!.

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:21 PMqazxc Says:

7

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:35 PMyidelle Says:

8

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:37 PMBoruchN Says:

“We acknowledge that these partnerships are distinct from those discussed in the Talmud as ‘according to the law of Moses and Israel." NEWS FLASH!...BREAKING NEWS! The Committee on Jewish Law and Standards Has Just Admitted That They are Wiser and Smarter Than 'Moshe Rabbeinu! "It is with great temerity, humility and penitence, and after careful analysis, contemplation, and deliberation, that we announce, that we are smarter and wiser than HaShem and 'Moshe Rabbeinu.'"

9

Jun 01, 2012 at 04:48 PMAnonymous Says:

Even without formally including kiddushin, most frum rabbonim would not approve of this "ceremony". However, its probably better that they have clearly defined rules so that everyone knows what to expect if their little Avromole comes home and says he met his beschert, Duvidl.

10

Jun 01, 2012 at 05:00 PMAnonymous Says:

desperate act on their part. they are a dying movement /. all the movements reform, conservative ,Conservative Traditional Judaism , Progressive, Reconstruction, would do anything to attract a crowd...

12

Jun 01, 2012 at 05:23 PMMOSHGIACH Says:

13

Jun 01, 2012 at 05:27 PMDrZ Says:

This article, from the Associated Press, is indicative of the moral depravity that has gripped our society. "Conservative" Jewish "scholars" are now leading the charge down the slippery slope to moral depravity. Maybe this will convince rational people that there is absolutely no validity to this movement, but rather kefirah.Will there be a public statement from any orthodox Jewish organizations (besides Agudah)? Why not contact the O.U. and National Council of Young Israel and similar organizations to insist that they come out publicly against recognition of what the Torah calls a toey-va

14

Jun 01, 2012 at 05:49 PMhey_you_never_know Says:

I guess being conservative Jew now reached a new low...lets face it, as a Jew you either grow religiously or importunately fall...the beauty of being religious is that although you fall you can still hang in and bounce back at some point. A conservative Jew which has no boundaries when it comes to Torah and being a true Jew will never bounce back and will only fall lower until reached the lowest point possible...

16

Jun 01, 2012 at 05:55 PMAvrumele Says:

Conservatism is not a branch of Judaism, it is a version, and an adulterated one as such. They are Jews, of course, if they are burn into Judaism, but their religion as far a Jewish religion, is not more Jewish than Jews for J.

17

Jun 01, 2012 at 06:17 PMbigwheeel Says:

This (The official sanctioning of the performance of gay wedding ceremonies.) is just another stop on the way to becoming equal with the Reform movement. It is truly heartbreaking. Because the Conservative movement started in Europe, in the mid-to-late Nineteenth Century essentially as a traditional movement. The early founders (In both, the US and Europe.) intended to introduce slight modifications to the observance and practice of the Laws of the Torah, as prescribed in the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch, which they considered to be "Archaic".As late as the early l960s, women were not (Yet) being called to the Torah, and Sabbath observance was still essentially intact. But they went on a "Slippery Slope" and abandoned more and more of Halacha.This should be an abject lesson for some segments in the "Modern Orthodox" movement, (Note. the emphasis is on "Some".) --who shall remain unidentified--who are "Pushing the envelope" in abandoning tradition, always coming up with new ideas, that might bring them (As a movement) to the brink of diluting Orthodox, Halachic observance altogether.

18

Jun 01, 2012 at 06:18 PMInsider Says:

Big Joke. Grand Rabbi Solomon B. Freehof, the Reform Posek, ruled that if a man and woman marry, divorce, marry others, divorce their second spouses, they may again marry their first spouses. He ruled that since the Orthodox do not recognize Reform marriages, therefore it is as though they were never married and, suprize, they may marry!!!! If a witch-doctor performs a Jewish wedding ceremony, is that also acceptable. How about polygamy ??? or incestual relationships. Are they then not a loving couple??? As predicted by our Gedolim at the inception of Reform and Conservative (so-called) Judaism (sic), the abomination reveals itself.

19

Jun 01, 2012 at 06:37 PMWise-Guy Says:

Worst news in a long time!Those traitorous arrogant SOB's lending a "Jewish" stamp of approval on what the written Torah clearly states is an abomination!Their recognition and validation of this deed is worse than the deed itself (according to Chazal) .Their insolent and contemptuous behaviour is Nebich going to cost them dearly.I hope it won't cost me and my peers dearly. We cast them out of Klal Yisroel!

And I fully expect to get "earful" for stating the above, but honestly, it's not my personal opinion. I'm basing it on what was clearly established and written by our creator quite a bit before any of us arrived on the scene. (Including the nauseating practitioners and supporters of same-gender-marriage.)And need I remind anybody that he (The Creator/Boss/Commander) is always right?

25

Jun 02, 2012 at 11:03 PMyaakov doe Says:

“
I am waiting for them to OK marriage between man and his dog, after all isn't man's best friend his dog? ”

Don't be surprised when they do, because it's a very flexable faith. Who would have ever guessed that they would stray this far in their attempt to modernize our religion? They started with English sermons, next mixed pews, goyshe choirs, women clargy and toieva committment ceremonies?

26

Jun 02, 2012 at 11:16 PMRobertS Says:

And they drive to wedding receptions on shabbos to make brachot for shellfish and pork. Seriously, though, they make chillul Hashem by mocking Jewish practice. At least the reform movement doesn't make a pretense of keeping Halacha, even if its rabbis might not be Jewish.

27

Jun 02, 2012 at 11:20 PMchayala Says:

This is ridiculous, Jewish weddings r about kedisha ,they aren't sanctifying anything except they're animalistc need to sin. Judiasim? I don't think so there is one and only ONE Torah, along with ONE set of rules. If u have the need to live in any other way then the Torah said. GO FOR HELP!!!

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Jun 03, 2012 at 03:29 AMShlomo Lewinowicz Says:

I am a gay man and I most definitely DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT approve of the very idea of gay - so-called - marriages. The very idea is an abomination.

In many countries (including my own) "civil partnerships" exist to protect property and inheritance rights. That concept makes sense, but there is absolutely no point whatsoever in "marriages" for same sex couples. Marriage is defined by HaShem for the principal purpose of procreation, so no further comment on my part on that issue is necessary.

I really hope that VIN will publish this opinion as it is necessary that other people know and realize that not all gay people think alike.

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Jun 03, 2012 at 08:30 AMAnonymous Says:

“
It's nice to read that toevah "marriage" is the biggest problem in life of some bourgeoisie Yidden. ”

What's that supposed to mean?

“We acknowledge that these partnerships are distinct from those discussed in the Talmud as ‘according to the law of Moses and Israel,’ but we celebrate them with the same sense of holiness and joy as that expressed in heterosexual marriages.”

Beliefs and actions which are anti-Torah and which call themselves some type of twisted "Judaism" must be protested,

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Jun 03, 2012 at 08:47 AMmarcia Says:

“
And they drive to wedding receptions on shabbos to make brachot for shellfish and pork. Seriously, though, they make chillul Hashem by mocking Jewish practice. At least the reform movement doesn't make a pretense of keeping Halacha, even if its rabbis might not be Jewish. ”

Look, I have no right to pass judgement on another Jew...I am not Hashem. BUT in your heart YOU know YOU can be a better person in the Lord's eyes too! You make assumptions about other Jews when you have absolutely NO idea about what you are saying. I work with Cons. & Reform Jews, many of whom are children of Holocaust survivors. They speak Yiddish, keep kosher, attend shul on Shabbos, go to Israel to work the land, give tzidukah and teach their children the importance of Judaism and the need to fight for Israel. American Jews will sooner sign up to join IDF then orthodox American Jews! We have enough people that want to see us blown off the map...splintered, we don't stand a chance.

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Jun 03, 2012 at 08:48 AMSherryTheNoahide Says:

Wow. This is totally disheartening to me. Our local Conservative Shul was the ONLY place our gentile family could find any community of Torah-abiding people. Even if where we lived had an orthodox Shul... we'd never be able to attend! And so it was nice to be so welcomed to the Conservative one.

But eventually, we stopped going (mostly this year), and a lot of that has to do w\my learning about the differences between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc. When we visited for Rosh Hashanah for example, I almost fell out of my pew when they had flown in a FEMALE Rabbi from New York to conduct the ceremony, etc!

But now this?!?! Even a gentile such as myself who isn't near as capable of understanding Jewish Law, etc. knows this is going off the derech! Now my "feelings" about my family maybe not worshipping there anymore, make a lot of sense!

Wow, wow, wow.... my husband isn't awake yet: but wait until I tell him THIS news! This is but another nail in our coffin, as far as looking for a "community" for our family to belong to. :-(

We truly have no place to go now...

Thank G-d for the internet, or I'd never hear TRUE Jewish teachings ever!

42

Jun 03, 2012 at 11:14 AMAnonymous Says:

“
And they drive to wedding receptions on shabbos to make brachot for shellfish and pork. Seriously, though, they make chillul Hashem by mocking Jewish practice. At least the reform movement doesn't make a pretense of keeping Halacha, even if its rabbis might not be Jewish. ”

I guess you've never attended a Conservative wedding. They do not hold weddings on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or during Sefirah or the 3 weeks. They do not condone the eating of shellfish or pork, and they certainly would not make a brocho over treif. Perhaps they are not machmir on yoshon or cholov yisroel or bugs in everything, but neither was my Orthodox synagogue until a few years ago.

43

Jun 03, 2012 at 11:17 AMnot_suprised Says:

“
Wow. This is totally disheartening to me. Our local Conservative Shul was the ONLY place our gentile family could find any community of Torah-abiding people. Even if where we lived had an orthodox Shul... we'd never be able to attend! And so it was nice to be so welcomed to the Conservative one.

But eventually, we stopped going (mostly this year), and a lot of that has to do w\my learning about the differences between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc. When we visited for Rosh Hashanah for example, I almost fell out of my pew when they had flown in a FEMALE Rabbi from New York to conduct the ceremony, etc!

But now this?!?! Even a gentile such as myself who isn't near as capable of understanding Jewish Law, etc. knows this is going off the derech! Now my "feelings" about my family maybe not worshipping there anymore, make a lot of sense!

Wow, wow, wow.... my husband isn't awake yet: but wait until I tell him THIS news! This is but another nail in our coffin, as far as looking for a "community" for our family to belong to. :-(

We truly have no place to go now...

Thank G-d for the internet, or I'd never hear TRUE Jewish teachings ever!

This is a sad day. ”

If you are serious about becoming a Jewish family, you will have to move to a frum community.

44

Jun 03, 2012 at 12:05 PMMentsh Says:

“
I guess you've never attended a Conservative wedding. They do not hold weddings on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or during Sefirah or the 3 weeks. They do not condone the eating of shellfish or pork, and they certainly would not make a brocho over treif. Perhaps they are not machmir on yoshon or cholov yisroel or bugs in everything, but neither was my Orthodox synagogue until a few years ago. ”

Thank you. I thought I would have to be the first person to say this.

Let me add that not all Conservative synagogues are alike -- just as not all Orthodox synagogues are alike. My Conservative shul is "traditional". Women do not have aliyas or count in a minyan. Like other Conservative shuls I know, our kitchen is GLATT KOSHER and would never be otherwise. No simchas would ever take place on Shabbos or Yom Tov, etc. People walk to shul; the parking lot is closed on Shabbos and Yom Tov. We use Birnbaum and Artscroll; services are exactly the same as Orthodox, but the men and women are comfortable sitting with each other.

My rabbi would certainly make gay people feel welcomed at services but would not officiate at a "marriage" ceremony. Clearly, if you read the whole article, it does not say that Conservative shuls are marrying two men or two women -- just providing a way for them to still feel comfortable as Jews. I actually know a few openly gay Orthodox men who want to live as Orthodox Jews (except for one thing, of course!). Shouldn't we let them practice Judaism?

45

Jun 03, 2012 at 12:47 PMRobertS Says:

“
Look, I have no right to pass judgement on another Jew...I am not Hashem. BUT in your heart YOU know YOU can be a better person in the Lord's eyes too! You make assumptions about other Jews when you have absolutely NO idea about what you are saying. I work with Cons. & Reform Jews, many of whom are children of Holocaust survivors. They speak Yiddish, keep kosher, attend shul on Shabbos, go to Israel to work the land, give tzidukah and teach their children the importance of Judaism and the need to fight for Israel. American Jews will sooner sign up to join IDF then orthodox American Jews! We have enough people that want to see us blown off the map...splintered, we don't stand a chance. ”

And what about commitment to Torah? Torah is the sine qua non of Judaism. Keeping few mitzvot, like Bnai Noach do, does not make for Judaism. And Judaism and Torah pre-date medinat Yisroel; support of Israel is not required of Jews (e.g. Non zionist charedim). Your logic is pathetic; these people might be Jews ( or not, given lax conversion standards... Not all conservative rabbis insist on mikvah for conversion, which illustrates how little sway of RA's responsa and guidelines on "Halacha" hold) but they are not practicing Judaism. They practice inversion of Judaism by putting their personal secular political beliefs above G-d and Torah. My heart aches for both gays who struggle with Judaism and for Jews who are kept ignorant of Torah by "rabbis" who reject the Torah from which the honorific "rabbi" is derived. But not for the willfully ignorant.

47

Jun 03, 2012 at 12:31 PMRobertS Says:

“
I guess you've never attended a Conservative wedding. They do not hold weddings on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or during Sefirah or the 3 weeks. They do not condone the eating of shellfish or pork, and they certainly would not make a brocho over treif. Perhaps they are not machmir on yoshon or cholov yisroel or bugs in everything, but neither was my Orthodox synagogue until a few years ago. ”

Your failure to detect my obvious sarcasm betrays your feeble intellect. My point was that a rabbi participating in a same sex wedding ceremony is like making a bracha over trayf. You support that simile when you note that Conservative "Halacha" does not permit trayf.

48

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:25 PMAnonymous Says:

“
"Gay Avek!" this ruling further demonstrates that Conservative Judaism has nothing to do with Hashem or His Torah which openly forbids this sort of activity. Conservative Judaism has long ago been rendered an irrelivent man-made religion and this ruling proves it. ”

Sorry, the Torah doesn't "openly forbid" this sort of activity.

The Torah forbids Homosexual physical relations, and says nothing about same-sex marriage. I don't believe that you are naive enough to think that gay sex does not go on before a same-sex wedding.

Actually, a relationship between two people of the same sex is not even forbidden, so long as no physical relationship is consummated, as far-fetched as that may be.

You obviously can not tell the difference between a same-sex marriage, and same-sex sex

49

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:27 PMAnonymous Says:

“
As the great gaon and Tzadik Harav Avigdor Miller Zt"L said when asked about what he thought about the fact the the conservative Jewry movement (at that time) had decided to ordain female rabbis, (he actually said in his quote "female shmahttes") "They are sliding to 7734 (that's hell backwards) already, this just helps grease the pole". This latest move makes sure they stay there!. ”

I highly doubt that you are correctly quoting Rav Miller.

It does not sound like him to say "they are sliding to 7734", and you are factually incorrect in saying that 7734 is Hell backwards.

50

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:31 PMAnonymous Says:

“
desperate act on their part. they are a dying movement /. all the movements reform, conservative ,Conservative Traditional Judaism , Progressive, Reconstruction, would do anything to attract a crowd... ”

wishful thinking on your part.

actual facts show that OVER 50% of American Jews intermarry into other faiths. Does that sound like Orthodoxy is growing?

52

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:34 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Conservatism is not a branch of Judaism, it is a version, and an adulterated one as such. They are Jews, of course, if they are burn into Judaism, but their religion as far a Jewish religion, is not more Jewish than Jews for J. ”

53

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:37 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Worst news in a long time!Those traitorous arrogant SOB's lending a "Jewish" stamp of approval on what the written Torah clearly states is an abomination!Their recognition and validation of this deed is worse than the deed itself (according to Chazal) .Their insolent and contemptuous behaviour is Nebich going to cost them dearly.I hope it won't cost me and my peers dearly. We cast them out of Klal Yisroel!

And I fully expect to get "earful" for stating the above, but honestly, it's not my personal opinion. I'm basing it on what was clearly established and written by our creator quite a bit before any of us arrived on the scene. (Including the nauseating practitioners and supporters of same-gender-marriage.)And need I remind anybody that he (The Creator/Boss/Commander) is always right? ”

your ignorant opinion confuses two different "deeds", as you call them.

One is forbidden by the Torah, the other is a ridiculous joke. the two are not connected or related, although you seem to think so.

55

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:45 PMAnonymous Says:

“
I am a gay man and I most definitely DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT approve of the very idea of gay - so-called - marriages. The very idea is an abomination.

In many countries (including my own) "civil partnerships" exist to protect property and inheritance rights. That concept makes sense, but there is absolutely no point whatsoever in "marriages" for same sex couples. Marriage is defined by HaShem for the principal purpose of procreation, so no further comment on my part on that issue is necessary.

I really hope that VIN will publish this opinion as it is necessary that other people know and realize that not all gay people think alike.

Thank you. ”

Thank YOU for your comment, which is more accurate and certainly MUCH more civil than the other comments posted here.

58

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:51 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Wow. This is totally disheartening to me. Our local Conservative Shul was the ONLY place our gentile family could find any community of Torah-abiding people. Even if where we lived had an orthodox Shul... we'd never be able to attend! And so it was nice to be so welcomed to the Conservative one.

But eventually, we stopped going (mostly this year), and a lot of that has to do w\my learning about the differences between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc. When we visited for Rosh Hashanah for example, I almost fell out of my pew when they had flown in a FEMALE Rabbi from New York to conduct the ceremony, etc!

But now this?!?! Even a gentile such as myself who isn't near as capable of understanding Jewish Law, etc. knows this is going off the derech! Now my "feelings" about my family maybe not worshipping there anymore, make a lot of sense!

Wow, wow, wow.... my husband isn't awake yet: but wait until I tell him THIS news! This is but another nail in our coffin, as far as looking for a "community" for our family to belong to. :-(

We truly have no place to go now...

Thank G-d for the internet, or I'd never hear TRUE Jewish teachings ever!

This is a sad day. ”

what is it exactly that you are having a problem with? Despite all the self-righteous stupidity being posted here, what exactly is the problem halachically about a same-sex marriage? it is a meaningless non-event. and there is nothing forbidden about it in the Torah. If you think there is, you really should look up exactly what is forbidden in the Torah. I can assure you that it is NOT a meaningless ceremony.

59

Jun 03, 2012 at 01:52 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Thank you. I thought I would have to be the first person to say this.

Let me add that not all Conservative synagogues are alike -- just as not all Orthodox synagogues are alike. My Conservative shul is "traditional". Women do not have aliyas or count in a minyan. Like other Conservative shuls I know, our kitchen is GLATT KOSHER and would never be otherwise. No simchas would ever take place on Shabbos or Yom Tov, etc. People walk to shul; the parking lot is closed on Shabbos and Yom Tov. We use Birnbaum and Artscroll; services are exactly the same as Orthodox, but the men and women are comfortable sitting with each other.

My rabbi would certainly make gay people feel welcomed at services but would not officiate at a "marriage" ceremony. Clearly, if you read the whole article, it does not say that Conservative shuls are marrying two men or two women -- just providing a way for them to still feel comfortable as Jews. I actually know a few openly gay Orthodox men who want to live as Orthodox Jews (except for one thing, of course!). Shouldn't we let them practice Judaism? ”

60

Jun 03, 2012 at 02:24 PMAvreich1 Says:

“
Wow. This is totally disheartening to me. Our local Conservative Shul was the ONLY place our gentile family could find any community of Torah-abiding people. Even if where we lived had an orthodox Shul... we'd never be able to attend! And so it was nice to be so welcomed to the Conservative one.

But eventually, we stopped going (mostly this year), and a lot of that has to do w\my learning about the differences between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc. When we visited for Rosh Hashanah for example, I almost fell out of my pew when they had flown in a FEMALE Rabbi from New York to conduct the ceremony, etc!

But now this?!?! Even a gentile such as myself who isn't near as capable of understanding Jewish Law, etc. knows this is going off the derech! Now my "feelings" about my family maybe not worshipping there anymore, make a lot of sense!

Wow, wow, wow.... my husband isn't awake yet: but wait until I tell him THIS news! This is but another nail in our coffin, as far as looking for a "community" for our family to belong to. :-(

We truly have no place to go now...

Thank G-d for the internet, or I'd never hear TRUE Jewish teachings ever!

61

Jun 03, 2012 at 02:59 PMMarriage? Says:

The Torah forbids Homosexual physical relations, and says nothing about same-sex marriage. I don't believe that you are naive enough to think that gay sex does not go on before a same-sex wedding.

Actually, a relationship between two people of the same sex is not even forbidden, so long as no physical relationship is consummated, as far-fetched as that may be.

You obviously can not tell the difference between a same-sex marriage, and same-sex sex ”

I would like to ask you - what do you think they are planning to do when they get "married"? You got it, this is pretty far-fetched. so let's support same sex-sex by calling it marriage. We can also support the freedom fighters of al-quaida because we call them freedom fighters, and we can sprinkle some water on bacon and pronounce it kosher. Where does it say in their marriage contract, "This marriage is valid, so long as the partners do not have relations"? Talk about leading a blind man into a sewer hole.FYI, according to halacha, gay men may not even touch each other. But, you , know, you can get married and never touch your partner, so the rabbis should ok marriage.

62

Jun 03, 2012 at 03:34 PMOscarMadison Says:

It would seem that the Conservative movement has been hijacked by popular globalist trash. These are the same people that brought us that nonsense green hechtsher which included mandated rules for green energy conservation.

63

Jun 03, 2012 at 04:23 PMRobertS Says:

“
what is it exactly that you are having a problem with? Despite all the self-righteous stupidity being posted here, what exactly is the problem halachically about a same-sex marriage? it is a meaningless non-event. and there is nothing forbidden about it in the Torah. If you think there is, you really should look up exactly what is forbidden in the Torah. I can assure you that it is NOT a meaningless ceremony. ”

The problem is that is mocks halakhic practice, and condones an aveyrah, just like making a bracha over trayf. What 2 people of the same sex do in their own home is their business. But this is making it public and saying that G-d sanctions the consummation of this "marriage". Which Torah clearly says is not the case.

64

Jun 03, 2012 at 04:27 PMesther Says:

“
what is it exactly that you are having a problem with? Despite all the self-righteous stupidity being posted here, what exactly is the problem halachically about a same-sex marriage? it is a meaningless non-event. and there is nothing forbidden about it in the Torah. If you think there is, you really should look up exactly what is forbidden in the Torah. I can assure you that it is NOT a meaningless ceremony. ”

is it a meaningless non event or is it not a meaningless ceromony? are you arguing just to argue?

65

Jun 03, 2012 at 04:30 PMAnonymous Says:

The Torah forbids Homosexual physical relations, and says nothing about same-sex marriage. I don't believe that you are naive enough to think that gay sex does not go on before a same-sex wedding.

Actually, a relationship between two people of the same sex is not even forbidden, so long as no physical relationship is consummated, as far-fetched as that may be.

You obviously can not tell the difference between a same-sex marriage, and same-sex sex ”

Literal translation of Torah is not the same thing as peshat, simple meaning. Societies that sanctioned same-sex relationships have always collapsed, yet Judaism, which does not sanction them, has survived. Beyond the prohibited sexual contact, the rabbinic sages prohibited such relationships, however emotionally gratifying they may be to the actors, because they correlate strongly with undermining Torah-based community. But we know that the Conservative movement doesn't have a halakhic leg to stand on after it cut off it's own legs with the responsa on driving on Shabbos; call it whatever you want, but it's not Judaism, because it's not based on Torah. It's based on gods of political correctness and self-esteem. In other words: avodah zara.

66

Jun 03, 2012 at 04:38 PMAnonymous Says:

actual facts show that OVER 50% of American Jews intermarry into other faiths. Does that sound like Orthodoxy is growing? ”

Given that rates of intermarriage of Orthodox Jews are almost negligible and given the Orthodox birth rate, that means that the aggregate rate of intermarriage of non-Orthodox Jews is substantially higher than 50% and growing substantially faster than for Orthodox Jews. If the non-Orthodox make no practical distinction between being Jewish and being non-Jewish, why do they care to call themselves Jews? Those who reject Torah have no standing to criticize it or change it.

68

Jun 03, 2012 at 04:54 PMRangers Goalie Says:

“
what is it exactly that you are having a problem with? Despite all the self-righteous stupidity being posted here, what exactly is the problem halachically about a same-sex marriage? it is a meaningless non-event. and there is nothing forbidden about it in the Torah. If you think there is, you really should look up exactly what is forbidden in the Torah. I can assure you that it is NOT a meaningless ceremony. ”

Instead of opening your big mouth, why don't you ask a "godol hador" if what you are saying is true, then post his answer here!

Jun 03, 2012 at 07:57 PMSherryTheNoahide Says:

70

Jun 03, 2012 at 08:07 PMSherryTheNoahide Says:

“
what is it exactly that you are having a problem with? Despite all the self-righteous stupidity being posted here, what exactly is the problem halachically about a same-sex marriage? it is a meaningless non-event. and there is nothing forbidden about it in the Torah. If you think there is, you really should look up exactly what is forbidden in the Torah. I can assure you that it is NOT a meaningless ceremony. ”

My friend, you misunderstood where I was coming from. I made no mention of my *personal* feelings regarding homosexuals. In this regard, I have no beef! What they do in their bedrooms, in their private lives, or if they want to enter into LEGAL (secular) relationships bound by a contract.... doesn't affect my life! It's between them & G-d & this is a free country!

You assume that because I am against RELIGIOUS institutions performing same-sex marriage, that I hate gays & are self-righteous about them! Sorry, but not this Liberal!

I have zero problems with the gay community because I believe there are far worse people in our society that we need to obsess & "worry" about than they! (lol) Gays pay their taxes, abide by the secular courts, contribute to society in their careers & in some cases, even make loving parents!

But there's a H-U-G-E difference, between what I believe *secularly* should be a tax-payers RIGHT to do, (even if they're gay)... verses a religious institution that is supposed to be following Torah, actually *sanctioning* these relationships by still considering their marriages valid or "Jewish".

71

Jun 03, 2012 at 08:28 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Your failure to detect my obvious sarcasm betrays your feeble intellect. My point was that a rabbi participating in a same sex wedding ceremony is like making a bracha over trayf. You support that simile when you note that Conservative "Halacha" does not permit trayf. ”

I highly doubt that anyone could detect any sarcasm in your feeble attempt at it.

72

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:11 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Your failure to detect my obvious sarcasm betrays your feeble intellect. My point was that a rabbi participating in a same sex wedding ceremony is like making a bracha over trayf. You support that simile when you note that Conservative "Halacha" does not permit trayf. ”

I think it is more a case of your "obvious sarcasm" betraying your OWN feeble intellect. I didn't find your sarcasm obvious, or even to be sarcasm, simply ignorance, and I'm not the one who called you out on it.

73

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:17 PMAnonymous Says:

“
I would like to ask you - what do you think they are planning to do when they get "married"? You got it, this is pretty far-fetched. so let's support same sex-sex by calling it marriage. We can also support the freedom fighters of al-quaida because we call them freedom fighters, and we can sprinkle some water on bacon and pronounce it kosher. Where does it say in their marriage contract, "This marriage is valid, so long as the partners do not have relations"? Talk about leading a blind man into a sewer hole.FYI, according to halacha, gay men may not even touch each other. But, you , know, you can get married and never touch your partner, so the rabbis should ok marriage. ”

Marriage? Says: “ I would like to ask you - what do you think they are planning to do when they get "married"?

I would like to ask you, exactly how ignorant are you? Do you seriously think there is any increase in sex in a gay relationship after a marriage ceremony? Your comment leads us to believe you believe gay men are celibate until their marriage ceremonies, which is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid on your part to believe.

And your unintentionally funny claim that halachically gay men cannot even touch each other comes from where? the Rov of your hometown, Chelm?

74

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:25 PMAnonymous Says:

“
The problem is that is mocks halakhic practice, and condones an aveyrah, just like making a bracha over trayf. What 2 people of the same sex do in their own home is their business. But this is making it public and saying that G-d sanctions the consummation of this "marriage". Which Torah clearly says is not the case. ”

You are assuming facts that are not in evidence, as the legal argument goes.

nobody said Gd is sanctioning any consummation of a gay marriage, and it does not mock any halachic practice, unless you are referring to Kedushin, in which case I guess every marriage in the world other than frum weddings would be doing the same mocking you claim.

The only sanctioning being claimed is that of New York State (other states) sanctioning same-sex marriage.

How you think two men living together make their relationship any more public than it already is is ridiculous. How would you even know about a same-sex wedding? What would be obvious would be ANY cohabitation of two men, married or not.

I will point out to you that you do not know for a fact that the orthodox couples in your neighborhood are married, you just assume they are (unless you happened to be personally informed of the wedding). Why would you be any more aware that a same-sex couple is getting married?

75

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:31 PMAnonymous Says:

“
is it a meaningless non event or is it not a meaningless ceromony? are you arguing just to argue? ”

I don't understand your question. A same-sex wedding is as meaningful to me and, I assume, you as a Hindu, Russian Orthodox or Scientology wedding.

There is nothing Halachically wrong with making a wedding party, and it is certainly NOT the forbidden act everyone is mistaking it for. Only the physical relationship is forbidden, not any meaningless ceremony.

So I guess no, I am arguing to set straight all the ignorant people on this site who claim that a same-sex wedding is forbidden by the Torah. it is not. A same-sex sexual relationship IS forbidden. I can assure you that the wedding ceremony does not change the frequency of gay sex in a gay relationship.

76

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:33 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Literal translation of Torah is not the same thing as peshat, simple meaning. Societies that sanctioned same-sex relationships have always collapsed, yet Judaism, which does not sanction them, has survived. Beyond the prohibited sexual contact, the rabbinic sages prohibited such relationships, however emotionally gratifying they may be to the actors, because they correlate strongly with undermining Torah-based community. But we know that the Conservative movement doesn't have a halakhic leg to stand on after it cut off it's own legs with the responsa on driving on Shabbos; call it whatever you want, but it's not Judaism, because it's not based on Torah. It's based on gods of political correctness and self-esteem. In other words: avodah zara. ”

you are certainly entitled to your opinions on religion and history, as naive, inaccurate and uneducated as they may be.

77

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:35 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Given that rates of intermarriage of Orthodox Jews are almost negligible and given the Orthodox birth rate, that means that the aggregate rate of intermarriage of non-Orthodox Jews is substantially higher than 50% and growing substantially faster than for Orthodox Jews. If the non-Orthodox make no practical distinction between being Jewish and being non-Jewish, why do they care to call themselves Jews? Those who reject Torah have no standing to criticize it or change it. ”

They call themselves Jews because they are Jews, and no level of non-observance or even conversion to another religion can take away their status as Jews, as you would like to think.

78

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:37 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Given that rates of intermarriage of Orthodox Jews are almost negligible and given the Orthodox birth rate, that means that the aggregate rate of intermarriage of non-Orthodox Jews is substantially higher than 50% and growing substantially faster than for Orthodox Jews. If the non-Orthodox make no practical distinction between being Jewish and being non-Jewish, why do they care to call themselves Jews? Those who reject Torah have no standing to criticize it or change it. ”

"Those who reject Torah have no standing to criticize it "

It is amazing how people like you invent "facts" that don't even make sense. What makes you think that those who reject Torah have no standing to criticize it? Who takes away their standing to criticize whatever they like? you?

81

Jun 03, 2012 at 09:52 PMAnonymous Says:

“
My friend, you misunderstood where I was coming from. I made no mention of my *personal* feelings regarding homosexuals. In this regard, I have no beef! What they do in their bedrooms, in their private lives, or if they want to enter into LEGAL (secular) relationships bound by a contract.... doesn't affect my life! It's between them & G-d & this is a free country!

You assume that because I am against RELIGIOUS institutions performing same-sex marriage, that I hate gays & are self-righteous about them! Sorry, but not this Liberal!

I have zero problems with the gay community because I believe there are far worse people in our society that we need to obsess & "worry" about than they! (lol) Gays pay their taxes, abide by the secular courts, contribute to society in their careers & in some cases, even make loving parents!

But there's a H-U-G-E difference, between what I believe *secularly* should be a tax-payers RIGHT to do, (even if they're gay)... verses a religious institution that is supposed to be following Torah, actually *sanctioning* these relationships by still considering their marriages valid or "Jewish".

I may be Liberal... but I can still read the Bible! ;-) ”

Why is it that you believe this is the first infraction against the Torah that the Conservative movement has committed?

Why is it okay for you to attend a synagogue that allows (in SOME Conservative sysnagogues, I should admit) woman Rabbis, or women to touch a torah at any time of the month, or any of dozens of other halachically prohibited actions, including officiating at mixed marriages, but you draw the line at the entire movement saying that Rabbis who want to can perform these meaningless ceremonies? Are they halachically binding? NO! And if the Rabbi of your Conservative Synagogue chooses NOT to participate in same-sex ceremonies, do you still have your problem attending the Conservative congregation?

You are unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) misstating the gist of my reply to your comment. I in no way accused you of being anti-gay, and, contrary to what you write, I don't believe the Conservatives said they consider those marriages valid and Jewish, in fact, quite the opposite. The article states that it is NOT considered kiddushin or a (Jewish) religious marriage, only that there is a legal (read: secular law) ruling that considers it a marriage.

82

Jun 03, 2012 at 10:37 PMRobertS Says:

“
I highly doubt that anyone could detect any sarcasm in your feeble attempt at it. ”

What part of "Seriously, though..." failed to indicate to you that the preceding sentence was sarcastic? You seem so blinded by apoplectic self-righteousness that you overlook obvious indicators of rhetorical intent.

83

Jun 03, 2012 at 11:03 PMRobertS Says:

It is amazing how people like you invent "facts" that don't even make sense. What makes you think that those who reject Torah have no standing to criticize it? Who takes away their standing to criticize whatever they like? you? ”

It's my opinion. Didn't my lack of source citation clue you into that? If they don't accept Torah, their criticism of it is rendered moot. Why be Jewish if they don't accept the sine qua non of Judaism? Somebody who accepts Torah, even grudgingly has a right to question and criticize it. Just like those leftist Jews who don't move their sorry tuchises to Israel have no right to use "we" in "We should not defend ourselves against terrorists like that"

84

Jun 03, 2012 at 11:04 PMAnonymous Says:

“
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews, and no level of non-observance or even conversion to another religion can take away their status as Jews, as you would like to think. ”

A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live.

86

Jun 04, 2012 at 08:01 AMAnonymous Says:

“
What part of "Seriously, though..." failed to indicate to you that the preceding sentence was sarcastic? You seem so blinded by apoplectic self-righteousness that you overlook obvious indicators of rhetorical intent. ”

Please stop continuing to prove your ignorance: let this go.

Oh, and rhetorical and sarcastic do not mean the same thing. If you want to use big-boy words, learn what they mean first.

87

Jun 04, 2012 at 08:03 AMSherryTheNoahide Says:

“
Why is it that you believe this is the first infraction against the Torah that the Conservative movement has committed?

Why is it okay for you to attend a synagogue that allows (in SOME Conservative sysnagogues, I should admit) woman Rabbis, or women to touch a torah at any time of the month, or any of dozens of other halachically prohibited actions, including officiating at mixed marriages, but you draw the line at the entire movement saying that Rabbis who want to can perform these meaningless ceremonies? Are they halachically binding? NO! And if the Rabbi of your Conservative Synagogue chooses NOT to participate in same-sex ceremonies, do you still have your problem attending the Conservative congregation?

You are unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) misstating the gist of my reply to your comment. I in no way accused you of being anti-gay, and, contrary to what you write, I don't believe the Conservatives said they consider those marriages valid and Jewish, in fact, quite the opposite. The article states that it is NOT considered kiddushin or a (Jewish) religious marriage, only that there is a legal (read: secular law) ruling that considers it a marriage. ”

"Why is it okay for you to attend a synagogue that allows (in SOME Conservative sysnagogues, I should admit) woman Rabbis...?"

I don't. (lol) That's why I said I almost fell out of my pew when I saw our local Conservative Shul had flown in a female Rabbi from New York, to officiate!

"...or women to touch a torah at any time of the month...?"

I'm somewhat familiar w\the laws of Nidah (sp?), but honestly, I'm not really sure how a Shul could KEEP a woman from touching the Torah when it comes around, if she wants to touch it! How could the person passing it around KNOW who's "ritually pure" enough to touch it, and who's not? It's it up the women to decide if they should touch it, for themselves?! (lol) But perhaps women aren't even allowed to touch the Torah in an orthodox shul. What do I know?! But at the Conservative one, it was no big deal.

"...or any of dozens of other halachically prohibited actions...?"

You expect any average gentile walking into a synagogue to listen to a sermon, to ALREADY know if that place keeps to the Torah 100%, if they're even allowed to visit at all, or what ALL the laws that *could* be broken, even are?! (lol)

88

Jun 04, 2012 at 08:07 AMAnonymous Says:

“
It's my opinion. Didn't my lack of source citation clue you into that? If they don't accept Torah, their criticism of it is rendered moot. Why be Jewish if they don't accept the sine qua non of Judaism? Somebody who accepts Torah, even grudgingly has a right to question and criticize it. Just like those leftist Jews who don't move their sorry tuchises to Israel have no right to use "we" in "We should not defend ourselves against terrorists like that" ”

then don't pass off your sorry opinion as a statement of fact, which you seem to do again in this comment.

wow! "didn't my lack of source citation clue you in to that?" and "what part of Seriously, though, didn't you understand"? Your comments are stupid enough on their face, we don't have to look to decode them as if you were writing Kaballah.

And as to your question of "Why be Jewish if..."? Because they have no choice. You cannot choose to become "un-Jewish". A born (or converted) Jew is a Jew forever, no matter what they do or believe. There is no choice involved.

And again, YOU decide who has a right criticize, use the "we", etc., etc.? You learn absolutely NOTHING from your own sad mistakes.

89

Jun 04, 2012 at 08:08 AMAnonymous Says:

“
A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live. ”

“ A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live. ”

Reply to #84 Hide QuoteAnonymous Says: Says:

“ A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live. ”Anonymous Says: Says:

“ A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a JReply to #84 Hide QuoteAnonymous Says: Says:

“ A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live. ”

Reply to #84 Hide QuoteAnonymous Says: Says:

“ A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live. ”

90

Jun 04, 2012 at 08:10 AMAnonymous Says:

“
A difference which makes no difference IS no difference. If they have Jewish status, but don't live a Jewish life, then there is no point to their being Jewish. Let them be goyim, if that's how they prefer to live. ”

let them be goyim? how? YOU can't let them be goyim, they can't let themselves be goyim even if they want to.

91

Jun 04, 2012 at 08:11 AMSherryTheNoahide Says:

“
Why is it that you believe this is the first infraction against the Torah that the Conservative movement has committed?

Why is it okay for you to attend a synagogue that allows (in SOME Conservative sysnagogues, I should admit) woman Rabbis, or women to touch a torah at any time of the month, or any of dozens of other halachically prohibited actions, including officiating at mixed marriages, but you draw the line at the entire movement saying that Rabbis who want to can perform these meaningless ceremonies? Are they halachically binding? NO! And if the Rabbi of your Conservative Synagogue chooses NOT to participate in same-sex ceremonies, do you still have your problem attending the Conservative congregation?

You are unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) misstating the gist of my reply to your comment. I in no way accused you of being anti-gay, and, contrary to what you write, I don't believe the Conservatives said they consider those marriages valid and Jewish, in fact, quite the opposite. The article states that it is NOT considered kiddushin or a (Jewish) religious marriage, only that there is a legal (read: secular law) ruling that considers it a marriage. ”

(con't)

For heaven's sakes, I didn't even realize there was an "issue" with husbands & wives sitting together in a synagogue, until many months after we had already been visiting there. And even then, we couldn't find one law this would have violated in Torah. I'm assuming you're already well aware of past statutes & decrees given by Rabbis & Sages long ago, who warned about the dangers of a "mixed" synagogue, "mixed" wedding ceremonies, etc. But again, you would expect a gentile family, newly out of Christianity, to know such things?!

You probably cannot relate to my "spiritual walk", because quite frankly... you've never had to go on the same walk as I have. You've been blessed to have already been raised a Jew, correct? To attend a Yeshiva perhaps, or to have had a close, tight-knit relationship with a loving Jewish community, who were able to teach you everything you know now.

Sorry my friend... most of us walking this earth, haven't been as blessed.

And as far as the article stating the Conservative's new position on gay marriage, THIS is what was said: "The Conservative branch of American Judaism has formally approved same-sex marriage ceremonies..."

93

Jun 04, 2012 at 10:20 AMAnonymous Says:

For heaven's sakes, I didn't even realize there was an "issue" with husbands & wives sitting together in a synagogue, until many months after we had already been visiting there. And even then, we couldn't find one law this would have violated in Torah. I'm assuming you're already well aware of past statutes & decrees given by Rabbis & Sages long ago, who warned about the dangers of a "mixed" synagogue, "mixed" wedding ceremonies, etc. But again, you would expect a gentile family, newly out of Christianity, to know such things?!

You probably cannot relate to my "spiritual walk", because quite frankly... you've never had to go on the same walk as I have. You've been blessed to have already been raised a Jew, correct? To attend a Yeshiva perhaps, or to have had a close, tight-knit relationship with a loving Jewish community, who were able to teach you everything you know now.

Sorry my friend... most of us walking this earth, haven't been as blessed.

And as far as the article stating the Conservative's new position on gay marriage, THIS is what was said: "The Conservative branch of American Judaism has formally approved same-sex marriage ceremonies..."

Nuff said! ”

"nuff said"?

those little dots after your quote are much more important than you let on. please reread what came after the part you quoted.

As to what goes on in any shul, your explanation is weak. There is a whole range of Orthodox shuls I may go to, from chassidishe to moderen Orthodox (or even "Conservadox") and the only thing they have in common is that they all think every other shul is too strict or too lenient.

You cannot know what any particular shul does without either watching, or asking. that goes for Orthodox, and goes for Conservative as well.

Yes, I went to Yeshiva, and still very frum, but your idealized idea of a loving Jewish community is a fairy tale, and I can tell you from over sixty years of personal experience, it makes the arguments here on VIN seem tame.

I spent almost all of my life in Boro Park or close by, and if I had to judge the religion by the people I would run like Hell from it. I will tell you that Conservative Jews who do go to Shul and practice on the whole turn out to be more civil and more decent than to frum community, which is incredibly concerned with looking religious and less so with acting religiously.

94

Jun 04, 2012 at 10:28 AMAnonymous Says:

For heaven's sakes, I didn't even realize there was an "issue" with husbands & wives sitting together in a synagogue, until many months after we had already been visiting there. And even then, we couldn't find one law this would have violated in Torah. I'm assuming you're already well aware of past statutes & decrees given by Rabbis & Sages long ago, who warned about the dangers of a "mixed" synagogue, "mixed" wedding ceremonies, etc. But again, you would expect a gentile family, newly out of Christianity, to know such things?!

You probably cannot relate to my "spiritual walk", because quite frankly... you've never had to go on the same walk as I have. You've been blessed to have already been raised a Jew, correct? To attend a Yeshiva perhaps, or to have had a close, tight-knit relationship with a loving Jewish community, who were able to teach you everything you know now.

Sorry my friend... most of us walking this earth, haven't been as blessed.

And as far as the article stating the Conservative's new position on gay marriage, THIS is what was said: "The Conservative branch of American Judaism has formally approved same-sex marriage ceremonies..."

Nuff said! ”

as for your posts, you write long ones, makes numerous points, and when challenged, choose and pick which ones you'd like to respond to, and change the focus of the question as you do here.

You run into the very same problems as any Born Jew in finding the right synagogue for you. the difference is there is a difference range and level of observance from one end of the specttrum to the other in Orthodox Shuls and Conservative ones.

As to who would let you in, your claim is not true. I have never walked into an Orthodox shul where they questioned my Jewishness or level of observance. And even if you looked or dressed diferently, you would be taken for a Ba'al Teshuva, welcomed in some shuls, despised and mocked in others. That is the reality, like it or not.

And for the record, you never responded to my questions of why you found this particular issue a deal-breaker in attending your synagogue, and how a gay wedding is the violation of the Torah, rather than actual gay sex, which goes on before and after any gay (and most straight) weddings, and is the actual forbidden act in the Torah.

These important questions you avoided, answering trivialities instead.

95

Jun 04, 2012 at 10:35 AMAnonymous Says:

For heaven's sakes, I didn't even realize there was an "issue" with husbands & wives sitting together in a synagogue, until many months after we had already been visiting there. And even then, we couldn't find one law this would have violated in Torah. I'm assuming you're already well aware of past statutes & decrees given by Rabbis & Sages long ago, who warned about the dangers of a "mixed" synagogue, "mixed" wedding ceremonies, etc. But again, you would expect a gentile family, newly out of Christianity, to know such things?!

You probably cannot relate to my "spiritual walk", because quite frankly... you've never had to go on the same walk as I have. You've been blessed to have already been raised a Jew, correct? To attend a Yeshiva perhaps, or to have had a close, tight-knit relationship with a loving Jewish community, who were able to teach you everything you know now.

Sorry my friend... most of us walking this earth, haven't been as blessed.

And as far as the article stating the Conservative's new position on gay marriage, THIS is what was said: "The Conservative branch of American Judaism has formally approved same-sex marriage ceremonies..."

Nuff said! ”

Sherry,

everyone's spiritual walk is different and uniques, and yours is not so different and hard to understand as you might think.

I would question why you chose to attend a Conservative Synagogue based on your concerns, as opposed to a conservadox or even Orthodox one.

I will also point out that there is a wealth of information that you said you couldn't find not only in books, but available in the privacy of the internet on sites like aish.com and chabad. the information you seek is no differnet from that of any returnee or Ba'al Teshuvah who is trying to reconnect with his religion, and there are live and internet classes on these subjects that are ubiquitous.

You seem very sincere, but somewhat hopeless and pessimistic in your ability to find the information you seek. I assure you that it is easier to find than you imagine, and I hope you find that out for yourself.

Good luck on your path, I realize it is a difficult one, but I wish you much success and happiness from continuing to follow it.

97

Jun 05, 2012 at 03:06 AMSherryTheNoahide Says:

There is NO Orthodox shul where I live for the nearest 3 hours drive, for anybody asking why I'd walk in a Conservative shul in the 1st place. Most people on here know that about me by now... that I have virtually ZERO access to a tight-knit, orthodox synagogue, or any orthodox Jewish families.

98

Jun 05, 2012 at 08:47 AMSherryTheNoahide Says:

“
as for your posts, you write long ones, makes numerous points, and when challenged, choose and pick which ones you'd like to respond to, and change the focus of the question as you do here.

You run into the very same problems as any Born Jew in finding the right synagogue for you. the difference is there is a difference range and level of observance from one end of the specttrum to the other in Orthodox Shuls and Conservative ones.

As to who would let you in, your claim is not true. I have never walked into an Orthodox shul where they questioned my Jewishness or level of observance. And even if you looked or dressed diferently, you would be taken for a Ba'al Teshuva, welcomed in some shuls, despised and mocked in others. That is the reality, like it or not.

And for the record, you never responded to my questions of why you found this particular issue a deal-breaker in attending your synagogue, and how a gay wedding is the violation of the Torah, rather than actual gay sex, which goes on before and after any gay (and most straight) weddings, and is the actual forbidden act in the Torah.

These important questions you avoided, answering trivialities instead.

'nuff said! ”

"...as for your posts, you write long ones, makes numerous points, and when challenged, choose and pick which ones you'd like to respond to, and change the focus of the question as you do here."

I love it! You write me a TWO POST REPLY, telling me I write too much. (lol) But I'll try to stay on topic...

"As to what goes on in any shul, your explanation is weak. There is a whole range of Orthodox shuls I may go to, from chassidishe to moderen Orthodox...."

YEAH! Good for you! (lol) Um, I live in a community where there is ONE Conservative Shul & not an orthodox one (that means, no modern-orthodox or any other branch, etc.) for a 3 HOUR'S drive from our home. I'd LOVE to see you walk on foot to Shabbat services that far away! :-D

And finally:

"...when challenged, choose and pick which ones you'd like to respond to, and change the focus of the question."

Ok, here's enough proof from the article ITSELF, stating the Conservative's position on gay marriage:

"The panel of scholars approved two model wedding ceremonies and guidelines for a same-sex divorce. Rabbis can adapt the marriage ceremonies for the couples." & "We celebrate them with the same sense of holiness"

99

Jun 05, 2012 at 08:57 AMSherryTheNoahide Says:

those little dots after your quote are much more important than you let on. please reread what came after the part you quoted.

As to what goes on in any shul, your explanation is weak. There is a whole range of Orthodox shuls I may go to, from chassidishe to moderen Orthodox (or even "Conservadox") and the only thing they have in common is that they all think every other shul is too strict or too lenient.

You cannot know what any particular shul does without either watching, or asking. that goes for Orthodox, and goes for Conservative as well.

Yes, I went to Yeshiva, and still very frum, but your idealized idea of a loving Jewish community is a fairy tale, and I can tell you from over sixty years of personal experience, it makes the arguments here on VIN seem tame.

I spent almost all of my life in Boro Park or close by, and if I had to judge the religion by the people I would run like Hell from it. I will tell you that Conservative Jews who do go to Shul and practice on the whole turn out to be more civil and more decent than to frum community, which is incredibly concerned with looking religious and less so with acting religiously.

(cont'd)... ”

(con't)

"However, many rabbis had already been conducting ceremonies for gays and lesbians that they had developed on their own..." and finally, last but not least...

"Called the “Covenant of Loving Partners,” the Conservative same-sex marriage document bases the ceremonies on Jewish partnership law." ("However, the ceremonies do not include kiddushin, or sanctification, in which a groom 'acquires' a bride by giving her a ring... 'The result is still a Jewish marriage,' the legal opinion on gay marriage states.")

WOW! How much proof does one NEED in one measly article to see that the Conservative movement might just be going off the derech in a LOT of instances! In some cases, very small ones... in other cases, very LARGE ones!

And for a family newly out of paganism (aka: x-tianity), the thought of clinging to yet ANOTHER false religion, doesn't exactly jive w\me!

And from what I've learned in the past 6-8 mos alone,concerning the Conservative movement, our family has a LOT of praying & soul-searching to do, about whether or not we even *could* truly convert in an institution like this!

100

Jun 05, 2012 at 09:02 PMAnonymous Says:

“
Thank you. I thought I would have to be the first person to say this.

Let me add that not all Conservative synagogues are alike -- just as not all Orthodox synagogues are alike. My Conservative shul is "traditional". Women do not have aliyas or count in a minyan. Like other Conservative shuls I know, our kitchen is GLATT KOSHER and would never be otherwise. No simchas would ever take place on Shabbos or Yom Tov, etc. People walk to shul; the parking lot is closed on Shabbos and Yom Tov. We use Birnbaum and Artscroll; services are exactly the same as Orthodox, but the men and women are comfortable sitting with each other.

My rabbi would certainly make gay people feel welcomed at services but would not officiate at a "marriage" ceremony. Clearly, if you read the whole article, it does not say that Conservative shuls are marrying two men or two women -- just providing a way for them to still feel comfortable as Jews. I actually know a few openly gay Orthodox men who want to live as Orthodox Jews (except for one thing, of course!). Shouldn't we let them practice Judaism? ”

rav Solavitich paskened it's better not to hear Shofer on RH then to go to a temple with mixed seating.

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Jun 05, 2012 at 09:04 PMAnonymous Says:

“
what is it exactly that you are having a problem with? Despite all the self-righteous stupidity being posted here, what exactly is the problem halachically about a same-sex marriage? it is a meaningless non-event. and there is nothing forbidden about it in the Torah. If you think there is, you really should look up exactly what is forbidden in the Torah. I can assure you that it is NOT a meaningless ceremony. ”

which is assured by the sefrah and quoted by the Rambam in hilchos isurai beiah

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Jun 08, 2012 at 02:45 PMpalmtights Says:

“
As the great gaon and Tzadik Harav Avigdor Miller Zt"L said when asked about what he thought about the fact the the conservative Jewry movement (at that time) had decided to ordain female rabbis, (he actually said in his quote "female shmahttes") "They are sliding to 7734 (that's hell backwards) already, this just helps grease the pole". This latest move makes sure they stay there!. ”