Comments on: Possible Religious Link Seen in Mystery of Runaway Goatshttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/
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By: cbkhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-555925
Sat, 31 Oct 2009 02:08:52 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-555925I am a current graduate student enrolled in an anthropology class called Humans and Animals. I found this to be a very interesting article; I can see how some may feel that ritual sacrifices to be cruel. People have a picture of savage people sadistically killing a helpless animal, and tossing it away when their “cause for sacrifice” is achieved. In cases where the animal is killed and then cooked and served to the community or family members, I see no real issue. When used as a feast, all of the animal is used and is not discarded into public areas. Take Luau’s for example, people go to Luau’s formally called ‘aha‘aina, which originally celebrated victories in war, heroes, good harvest and births. You can even do your own Luau by purchasing a whole pig at the store. How is purchasing a gutted pig any different than purchasing a live pig? Sure here in America for most people, to hear of an animal being slaughtered outside of a slaughterhouse or meat-packing facility it is generally looked at as inhumane or barbaric. But to most farmers or ranchers the slaughter of an animal for their own consumption is a common occurrence. It seems to be an out of sight out of mind mentality, “I know I bought this dead pig but I’m not going to think about how it came to be deceased”. As far as these goats being run a ways from a religious group I tend to believe otherwise. Since these animals are usually consumed afterwards it seems unlikely they would use sick infested animals.
]]>By: Marinahttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-545151
Sun, 18 Oct 2009 05:46:03 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-545151The Farm Sanctuary appears to have it’s own agenda by stating that this is a “neighborhood where these goats are being found, there are a lot of Santeria, people who practice Santeria,” said Susie Coston, the national shelter director for Farm Sanctuary. “They’ve seen skulls and obvious sacrificed animals before.”
People who practice Santeria are not in hiding, but there are also other religions that practice animal sacrifice such as voodoo.
It seems more likely that these goats are being raised as farm animals for their meat, milk and byproducts like cheese. The question raised that if the goats were for sacrifice, why are they alive and wandering around sick, most likely indicates they are not for Santeria. Having a society that is economically strapped raises a larger concern about people living with or off of these animals that are unhealthy. I personally saw a goat with a lame foot with a rope tied around his neck in the same area and called the police but before we could figure out our exact location, the goat headed right back into the thicket and we could not spot him again. He seemed to know exactly where to go and the bush looked well traveled even though no one would want to venture in because it was so thick.
My concern then was that someone is probably living behind the bushes and raising these animals in a very poor manner. It is all speculation, but Santeria would leave dead, not live goats, and live goats are easily available for sale in a healthy state for such rituals from various outlets including halal meat sources. The killing described is also the halal and kosher method of slaughtering animals for both consumption and some religious rituals. Let’s hope NYPD resolves this mystery and ends this practice that most likely falls under the animal neglect and abuse statutes.
]]>By: Free the Seeing-Eye Dogs!http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-544959
Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:25:49 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-544959Yes, the Supreme Court should reverse its decision to allow Santeria to practice animal sacrifice.

And while they’re at it, they should remove that bit about the government not making laws concerning the establishment of religion from the first amendment to the Constitution, ban the ceremonial transubstantiation of the Holy Communion as cannibalism, and require all residents of and visitors to the U.S. to eschew the consumption of meat or any product derived in whole or in part from animals.

But really, how can we pretend compassion for animals while being so bigoted that we can’t allow others to pursue their religion in peace when that pursuit has no appreciable impact on our lives?

]]>By: Kammihttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-544461
Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:49:46 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-544461How is this different from what goes on in slaughterhouses? The fact that they’re not hopped up on antibiotics?
]]>By: Ochani Lelehttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-543321
Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:40:45 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-543321Interesting article, and there are some very interesting opinions here.

Of all those opposed to animal sacrifice, I have one question for you: How many are vinyl wearing, modern medicine abstaining vegans? Because unless you abstain from all animal meats, animal byproducts, and animal tested products, you life feeds on animal life, and that’s just the way it is.

Life is sacrifice. At least we hallow that fact, and make it holy. Who but us can say the same?

Ochani

]]>By: rhphttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542571
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:45:20 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542571Elizabeth, your argument might have some logic if it were otherwise lawful to slaughter human beings, e.g., in a slaughterhouse. Since it’s never legal to kill human beings, it can never be a legal aspect of any religious ritual.

By contrast, animals can be legally killed in this country, whether you like it or not. To say that it’s ok to kill this animal by smashing its brains in so some rich person can enjoy a juicy steak, but to not allow a poor person to slaughter an animal in a more reverent and humane fashion as the part of a religious ritual seems intellectually inconsistent, bordering on classist or racist. We live in a country where a wealthy man can go gun down wild animals for sport and leave the carcass to rot, a cruel and senseless waste of life. After the poor man’s religious ritual (which didn’t involve cruelly hunting down the animal as it runs for it’s life) at least the chicken or goat is being eaten to sustain life. Are they keeping the animals in a safe and lawful manner? Clearly not, and that needs to be addressed. The law enforcement aspect can be addressed without attacking someone’s religion.

]]>By: rachttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542567
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:35:20 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542567@DanielPJS (#10). You ask “Exactly how is this “animal cruelty” any different than slaughtering an animal for food.”

I am glad that you ask, because you are giving some thought to what the issue of opposing the killing of non-human animals is about. You also ask “Where exactly do you think the steaks, buffalo wings, eggs, milk, cheese, whipped cream and all those other assorted goodies you eat come from????” But, it is you who may not have the answer to that question. I know very well that it mostly comes from cruel agri-business industries that have no concern for the LIVES of those that it raises for profit. Many of us have visions of cute farms, cute animals in farm-yards, and other images that still show up in children’s books. For many years, I was well aware of the cruelty in the treatment of animals raised for food, yet could not bear to look at the images in animal welfare magazines. It is terribly painful to view these pictures. And, if you do want to know more, please visit the PETA website — there it is in living color for you to see. If you still feel like downing a burger after looking into the eyes of the cows/cattle slaughtered for your enjoyment, then that is your right, and I have no wish to argue with you. However, starting to look and learn about what is really going on will turn the stomachs of most people. Beyond the the sheer horror of the sight of the way animals are treated and slaughtered, there are environmental reasons – you need to research this yourself.

But, to answer why I personally oppose the raising and slaughter of animals for my benefit — it is simply that I choose not to benefit from the suffering of others. FYI, you might wonder ‘What is wrong with eating eggs and cheese; the animals are not killed for that?’ The answer is that there are no crueller industries thatn poultry and dairy. I could go on to explain how I know that to be true, but you won’t benefit from my stories, you need to investigate this yourself.

@Bernardette – My religion or lack of it has nothing to do with my revulsion at torture, cruelty and abuse. You may praise people for such activities and revere their religious devotion. I am merely saddened and sickened. I hope you equally admire the cultures that cut women due to their long-held cultural traditions; I condemn them. How about a little metaphor instead of concretizing every concept that religions tout- like the blood part?

There are religions all over the world that oppress and subjugate women, too. If you choose to admire or condone them for their right to religious expression, you condemn a great percentage of the world to lives of misery and subjugation. Each to his/her own ethical positions on these questions.

]]>By: rachelhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542561
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:13:51 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542561I have to agree with Jack. Most cities have ordinances which prohibit the keeping of farm animals (and wild animals) within city limits, mostly because there is a lack of safe and healthy facilities for keeping such animals.

Unless of course you are a rich WASP; then you can keep a large horse crammed in a tiny dark stall right near Central Park so you can enjoy an early morning ride. Same goes for horse carriage/taxi’s, mounted police horses, etc. So some large “farm animals” are being kept within the city, mostly for the amusement of the wealthy.

There must be a way these smaller ritual animals can be made available for religious practices without letting them roam the city in an unhealthy and dangerous manner. If large animals can be kept in the city for the enjoyment of the upper classes, then there must be a lawful avenue for these ritual animals to be kept, as well. Without a doubt, we’d all be complaining if the horses were left to run free on the city streets and parkways. These smaller animals have the capacity to create danger and pose public health problems, as well.

It’s a law enforcement issue. If animals are kept within the city, they must be kept in a safe and lawful manner. Whether the animal is being kept to amuse the wealthy, or for a poor person to perform what he sincerely believes are necessary religious rituals should not come into question. Outlawing someone’s religious practice seems heavy-handed and overreaching; laws should be narrowly tailored to protect the public without unduly infringing upon traditional religious practices.

]]>By: Adamhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542545
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:54:09 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542545Really? I don’t think the Italian Catholics of Pelham Bay and Pelham Gardens are Santeria practitioners. Not really sure which community Susie Colton is referring to. Also, if such practitioners in the area did exist, they’d be much more likely to take the animals and/or their other sacrifices to the Long Island Sound as many communities in Queens take similar sacrifices to Jamaica Bay.
]]>By: Elizabethhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542541
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:47:24 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542541“While I am a proponet of animal rights, and a vegetarian, my personal beliefs have no place interfering with the religious rights of another person.”

JLU, you’re a hypocritical vegetarian then.

Perhaps someone should start a religion that allows us to eat Christians. Not to step on our spiritually delicate sensibilities, the law will then allow us to practice religious freedom. Haha.

]]>By: Elizabethhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542535
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:41:32 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542535LOL at the idiot who thinks veganism is a cult. Do you tell yourself that so you can sleep better at night, so your subliminal guilt doesn’t suffocate you in your sleep?

Many people become vegan (as opposed to just vegetarian) because of the cruelty of factory farming. If you have a chicken in your back yard, or know someone with a cow who doesn’t force it to become pregnant over and over, and who doesn’t send its male offspring to the slaughter – eat dairy and eggs.

Plus most people who are horrified at this story would be vegetarian or vegan – so those of you who are pointing out that it’s no worse than the meat industry are trying to argue with the wrong people.

]]>By: Jackhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542523
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:31:58 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542523Of course this is outrageous. There is no excuse for a practice, religious or not, that does not take into consideration the welfare of its surrounding community and, in my opinion, the well being of the animal. Having goats, sheep, or chickens running loose on the Parkway in one of the most populated metropolitan areas SHOULD raise your eyebrows whether you are interested in the animal or not! You people defending this are NUTS. As mentioned in the article, some of these animals were not taken care of meaning who knows what disease they could be carrying and clearly they were NOT in the hands of a responsible custodian if they are running around on a major parkway! Ask yourself, is this fair to the community because it is in the name of religious freedom? Just think, if you are defending this, how would you feel if the person practicing this ritual lived in your neighborhood or was your next door neighbor? Would you still say they have a right to religious freedom? Get real ~ this is wrong on so many levels. AND, BIG THANKS to Farm Sanctuary for actually stepping up for animals in this situation who otherwise would be euthanized by Animal Control of no fault of their own.
]]>By: Johnnyhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542517
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:22:07 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542517Take a moment to think. Millions of animals are slaughtered every day in corporate factory farming, mostly in horrible conditions. This part of Santoria sounds similar to Native American spirituality’s reverence for the animals that we share this Earth with, and yet also eat as part of our food-chain. To kill an animal in a conscious and aware way, honoring it’s life as well as the life it gives you does not sound “stupid.” Nor does it sound like animal cruelty, or an ugly, bloody ritual – Unless you would describe the activities of fisherman or hunters the same way. It is a much more sane, informed, and compassionate way than the ignorant denial of meat-eaters who buy plastic wrapped meals at the supermarket and then condemn those who do the slaughtering. Wake up! Vegetarians have an argument – meat eaters have none.
]]>By: rachelhttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/comment-page-1/#comment-542515
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:12:58 +0000http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/possible-religious-link-seen-in-mystery-of-runaway-goats/#comment-542515It’s not just the meat eaters who are in no position to protest, Eric. Every New Yorker who lives in a building where rats and mice are brutally poisoned or trapped is also in no position to protest. Everyone who wears polyester, the byproducts of which pollute the air and water and cause cancers in people (and animals) living near the plants, also are in no position to protest. Everyone who wears leather jackets, shoes, belts, purses, backpacks, etc. is also in no position to protest.

I had to start thinking about my own hypocracy when my beloved little dog was dying of congestive heart failure. I was paying thousands of dollars for medical care to try to keep her comfortable when I realized how I was making judgments in an arbitrary fashion. Because my dog was part of my life, I made her non-suffering a priority. But how was her suffering any different than that of the calf who is literally boxed in, unable to move, while he is fattened to make someone’s veal? How was her suffering any different than that of a chicken that is crammed into a tiny, filthy cage and forced to produce eggs around the clock until her life is extinguished? Part of the outcry from New Yorkers is because they are so completely divorced from the realities of food production in the United States that they can maintain hypocritical attitudes. I grew up in a rural area and I know how animals are treated in order to bring food to your table. If you saw the sore, infected udders of the cows, the mere sight of a glass of milk would make you want to vomit. But ignorance is bliss, I guess.