331 comments on “2012-13 Game Thread: Knicks @ Heat”

Yup… just hope he isn’t out too long. San Antonio’s backups kept it close with the Heat…maybe we can too w/o Melo? Are we can just have the best player on our team – Chandler – just shoot more and take over =)

johnlocke:
Yup… just hope he isn’t out too long. San Antonio’s backups kept it close with the Heat…maybe we can too w/o Melo? Are we can just have the best player on our team – Chandler – just shoot more and take over =)

Have a feeling Heat are out to make a statement tonight. All their players who were questionable for tonight (Battier/Chalmers/Haslem/Cole) are all playing from what Ive read. Game might get ugly for the Knicks.

I have a clear understanding of why Stern was so pissed now. This is a letdown. Even though it’s obviously legit. To have a team purposefully take the air out of what should be a marquee mid season game was definitely a “disservice to the fans”. Period.

Barkley is not going to say anything good about the Knicks until they win a game against the Heat to tie the series 1-1 in the ECF. I, for one, can’t wait for the day that he and Reggie Miller have to talk about how good the Knicks are.

Some players would play tonight. That’s a bit of a disappointment on Melo.

cgreene:
I have a clear understanding of why Stern was so pissed now.This is a letdown.Even though it’s obviously legit.To have a team purposefully take the air out of what should be a marquee mid season game was definitely a “disservice to the fans”.Period.

Barkley is not going to say anything good about the Knicks until they win a game against the Heat to tie the series 1-1 in the ECF.I, for one, can’t wait for the day that he and Reggie Miller have to talk about how good the Knicks are.

Some players would play tonight.That’s a bit of a disappointment on Melo.

You can’t compare this to the Spurs situation, Popovich just sent those guys home even though they were fine to play

Barkley has a very, very clear agenda on the Knicks, but in general he’s a pretty smart analyst. He talked about a player increasing his points per game without actually getting better and everything haha

d-mar: You can’t compare this to the Spurs situation, Popovich just sent those guys home even though they were fine to play

That’s exactly what I mean. I am disappointed and this is a completely legitimate reason for Melo to miss the game. Not blaming him or Knicks (although, as I said, some players would play. But that’s on him not a disservice to the league). What this did for me as a fan who was excited to see this game was draw a contrast for just how egregious it was what Pop did.

Juany8:
Barkley has a very, very clear agenda on the Knicks, but in general he’s a pretty smart analyst. He talked about a player increasing his points per game without actually getting better and everything haha

Chuck loves trolling Knicks fans. He’s probably still sore from the time Oakman slapped him in the mouth.

Would be so nice to win tonight. I think Woodson should just try to inspire the shit out of Sheed and try to bring back a vintage, 2004 performance out of him. If that happens, Sheed should get an hour alone for a news conference

im not just basing this on tonight, but sometimes i think we might be better to give it to felton on last shot situations, with everyone spotting up and melo ready to catch in score. hes a better decision maker in these situtions

Felt that way in Dallas, given that we were dominating them in the PnR all game.

maxwell_3g:
im not just basing this on tonight, but sometimes i think we might be better to give it to felton on last shot situations, with everyone spotting up and melo ready to catch in score.hes a better decision maker in these situtions

Lebron is nasty and definitely the BPITW, but the more I watch Miami I think this team can be got if you have the correct personnel. The Knicks and Memphis have demonstrated that if you can pound it inside on them effectively they really can’t stop you. The amount of dribble penetration they give up is really wild.

True. But I’d expect half time adjustments. They”ll trap the PnR more aggressively and not allow Felton to go off for 18 in the 2nd half for sure. They’ll should also just leave JR wide open as I doubt it would make a difference…so hot and cold.

lavor postell:
Lebron is nasty and definitely the BPITW, but the more I watch Miami I think this team can be got if you have the correct personnel.The Knicks and Memphis have demonstrated that if you can pound it inside on them effectively they really can’t stop you.The amount of dribble penetration they give up is really wild.

The Heat do have a lot of guys that seem kind of redundant. There’s only so many one-dimensional, no-defense playing perimeter shooters you can carry on the roster without it hurting your defense. The Heat were a nasty defensive team last year; this year they’re pretty pedestrian on that end.

How long can this last though? We’re already seeing JR’s 3 point shooting regress to the mean. Kidd, Felton, and Melo have all been shooting well above their career norms. The offense won’t look so rosy without all the long range shots falling.

How long can this last though? We’re already seeing JR’s 3 point shooting regress to the mean. Kidd, Felton, and Melo have all been shooting well above their career norms. The offense won’t look so rosy without all the long range shots falling.

One other thing about the Heat’s D. This is obviously some level of wishful thinking but defense is not something that you just turn on and become a great defensive team in the playoffs after playing 82 games of mediocre D. Defense is an identity that takes root throughout the season.

credit grunfield. our offensive strategy and personnel aimed at running that offense is making up for a ton of athletic deficiency(see prigs laying one up from his ankles while all help defenders are afraid to leave their men at the 3 point line)

The Heat gave up 90 points through 3 quarters to a team that does not have it’s #1 scoring option. I don’t care for the “Miami doesn’t care enough to play defense” argument anymore; I think they just plain old suck on that end now.

LBJ must be having Cleveland flashbacks- it was like he was by himself out there. What was amazing is that besides Felton (and White in limited minutes) nobody played out of their minds offensively- JR, Sheed, and Kidd all shot poorly and while Chandler was solid he wasn’t quite up to his usual standard (a TS of just .60). Almost everyone played really well on defense- JR’s best defensive game in weeks. Great, great win.

Jon Abbey, thank you very much for wishing me happy belated birthday. Did you say this was your birthday today? If so, wow, you lucky m’f’er. I was at three separate political events tonight and my wife was supposed to record the game (don’t forget to vote for daJudge 2013). Unfortunately, she could not find it and felt like shit when I got home. She’s a huge Knick fan and still loves me after 35+/- years. Part of me was happy since I could be psychologically absolved from watching and stressing through the game (all of you know what I mean). Anyway, I got home and we still caught the whole fourth quarter. After the game we looked at each other and thought this was a pretty damn good game. All we wanted to see was Woodson bite Lebron in the leg to bring it full circle. Ball don’t lie. Go Knicks. This year is really special—savor it.

Wow. That was really something to watch. You keep waiting for the house of cards to come down, but maybe it just won’t.

Woodson = 32-10 with this team. This is outrageous.

Not to take anything away from this win, but there is something seriously wrong with Dwyane Wade. Maybe this is just the aging process, but he was basically a scrub out there today. He was a -33 in 32 minutes (compared with J Kidd who was a +31 in 32 minutes). And is it just me or does Chalmers look pretty heavy and slow out there? Battier was a total non-factor.

Just amazing. I am sure this win will spawn 49285 posts about whether Carmelo is a good player or not, but I don’t care – just going to enjoy this one tonight.

Tommy Beer from Hoopsworld just tweeted something I wholly agree with — the foundation of this team is a very stingy defense and an unbelievable ability to avoid turning the ball over (all while turning the other team over a lot). Only 7 TOs again tonight. in 9 out of our 18 games we’ve had single-digit turnovers. Just amazing.

Again – hats off to Grunwald for building this team. We had the same limitations as the Lakers and Heat, and look at how freaking deep this team is. Prigioni, White, Rasheed, Novak, and Brewer were all signed to minimum contracts. JR was gotten for just the room exception. Kidd gets the mini-MLE. And we just beat the defending champs in their building by 20 without 4 of our projected top 10 guys (Melo, Amare, Shumpert, Camby). Just fantastic.

Just finished watching on DVR, sat there with my mouth open for 48 minutes. What an absolute beatdown, and whoever said every player on the Knicks gets an A+ was dead on – that was the definition of a team effort.

One thing I don’t get about LeBron – after the blowout in NY and tonight’s game, he’s got a smile on his face and is kind of yukking it up with Knicks players. I know he proved himself last year, but I can’t imagine Jordan or Kobe not being incredibly pissed about being smoked on your home court.

DRed:
Where’s ruru tonight?No hockey assists, no Kobeassists from Melo, no shot creators, and we fucking crushed a 12-4 defending champion on the road.How did that happen?

Felton played the best game of his life (probably, I didn’t check), and Kidd was a ridiculous +31 in 33 minutes.

I lost a long post when the site crashed, but you can’t get a much bigger statement win in early December than that. the playoffs are still light years away and anyone who thinks how Miami is playing now will matter at all in May and June is crazy, but this season so far has been even beyond ruru’s rosiest projections, and who saw that coming?

Yeah, but if Ray Felton has an average game we still win by 10, without any shot creators. I keep reading that Melo is they lynchpin of our offense. He makes everything go. If you don’t have him shooting a high volume at average efficiency, we’re screwed because he’s the only one who can create those shots.

Kidd was ridiculous, but he’s the best point guard not named Magic Johnson to play in the NBA in 40 years. Jason Kidd at 39 is a better player than Carmelo Anthony has ever been. Melo can’t touch J. Kidd.

DRed:
Yeah, but if Ray Felton has an average game we still win by 10, without any shot creators.I keep reading that Melo is they lynchpin of our offense.He makes everything go.If you don’t have him shooting a high volume at average efficiency, we’re screwed because he’s the only one who can create those shots.

Kidd was ridiculous, but he’s the best point guard not named Magic Johnson to play in the NBA in 40 years. Jason Kidd at 39 is a better player than Carmelo Anthony has ever been. Melo can’t touch J. Kidd.

Nice birthday present tonight, Jon.Hope you got to catch some of it.

You’re a god damned moron if you think Felton’s impact on the ame were just his 27 points.

Kidd is amazing, a great complement to Felton, but he is not the engine of the offense. he makes everything better, but he simply cannot come close to impacting the high pnr like Felton does, which kys the Knicks impossible to defend half court offense.

jon abbey: Felton played the best game of his life (probably, I didn’t check), and Kidd was a ridiculous +31 in 33 minutes.

I lost a long post when the site crashed, but you can’t get a much bigger statement win in early December than that. the playoffs are still light years away and anyone who thinks how Miami is playing now will matter at all in May and June is crazy, but this season so far has been even beyond ruru’s rosiest projections, and who saw that coming?

of course the Heat will be better.

But the basic mechanics of the Knicks offense goes right to the heart of the Heat’s defensive weaknesses.

I don’t know if anyone listens to anything Albert and Kerr said tonight regarding Spoelstra’s comment on vertical spacing in the high pnr, or if people are interested in talking about the game and not turning this grat victory into some kind of gotcha thing (which is insane btw), but the Heat will not to make major adjutments to defend the high pnr.

No team can stop it!! Felton is an elite pnr point guard, and with Chandler’s screening, finishing ability and mobility — that is the key– and the shooters around him, there just isn’t anything teams can do.

You don’t see any teams that start the high pnr as far out as the Knicks do, but they can because of Chandler’s screening and speed towards the rim.

He beats average rotations to the basket.

That’s what Spoelstra was talking about re: vertical spacing.

You know what I think is going to eventually happen, they are going to put Lebron on Felton, while jeeping Bosh on Chandler.

Eventually, that will turn the high pnr into a decoy, but it will open up the middle of the defense where Amar’e and Melo can eat all game long.

ruruland: You’re a god damned moron if you think Felton’s impact on the ame were just his 27 points.

Kidd is amazing, a great complement to Felton, but he is not the engine of the offense. he makes everything better, but he simply cannot come close to impacting the high pnr like Felton does, which kys the Knicks impossible to defend half court offense.

Are you fucking drunk dude?

Get the fuck out, ruru. You talk so much shit, so grow a thicker skin and take a little teasing like a man. Are you even a fucking Knicks fan? Ray Felton was absolutely amazing tonight-did I say he wasn’t? Felton’s a good PG, and a really nice fit for this particular team. He destroyed the Heat. But that’s not the point. How did we play so well without Carmelo? Seriously, asshole, got to Meloblogger.com if you’re going to be such a prickly bitch.

was I the only one who saw a little of Tim Hardaway in Felton for the first time tonight? that had to have been the best game of his life considering the competition and Melo being out, they even had LeBron on him at stretches.

DRed: Get the fuck out, ruru.You talk so much shit, so grow a thicker skin and take a little teasing like a man.Are you even a fucking Knicks fan?Ray Felton was absolutely amazing tonight-did I say he wasn’t?Felton’s a good PG, and a really nice fit for this particular team.He destroyed the Heat.But that’s not the point.How did we play so well without Carmelo?Seriously, asshole, got to Meloblogger.com if you’re going to be such a prickly bitch.

all ruru talked about all summer was how the Knicks had a chance at being a 60 win team and the main reason was because of how much they would cut down on turnovers given the new acquisitions. he couldn’t have been more right and one game without Melo doesn’t show much except how hard this team has come to play virtually every game so far (one dud effort in almost 1/4 of a season, in HOU, that is remarkable for the NBA).

jon abbey:
was I the only one who saw a little of Tim Hardaway in Felton for the first time tonight? that had to have been the best game of his life considering the competition and Melo being out, they even had LeBron on him at stretches.

Yeah, you definitely cannot expect shot-making like that but a handful of times throughout the year, though it was a perfect night for it clearly and I think it really kept the Knicks confidence high.

So many of those makes came in late shot clock situations, or when everything else had been shut down.

But honestly, I think he can penetrate like that most games. There are situations when I think he gets gassed at times, and you don’t want to wear down Chandler by running it every play, but shit, you can’t defend it. Early in the year he was only able to go downhill like that for a quarter or half a quarter per half. But that’s increased quite a bit. And when teams switch on it, he can beat any big man off the dribble (he needs to do it more instead of settling for jumpers. That’s the one time he settles too much.)

I honestly think it’s the best offensive play in basketball right now (aside from Durant or Lebron in transition or semi-transition) and most of that credit goes to Felton. He’s really a great pnr point guard. Sadly, he’ll never credit for it statistically. I honestly think it’s a lot more effective on a per possession basis than Paul/Griffin pnr.

Felton goes so hard straight downhill. Paul kind of mills around in the paint waiting for an opening.

IDK, I knew Felton’s pnr and penetration were great fits (remember the talk this off-season was how he wasn’t a great penetrator) but he’s better than I remember seeing.

jon abbey:
all ruru talked about all summer was how the Knicks had a chance at being a 60 win team and the main reason was because of how much they would cut down on turnovers given the new acquisitions. he couldn’t have been more right and one game without Melo doesn’t show much except how hard this team has come to play virtually every game so far (one dud effort in almost 1/4 of a season, in HOU, that is remarkable for the NBA).

The turnovers are big, and anyone who simply looked at career turnover rates for the incoming players vs the outgoing players could have easily concluded the same.

The prediction that I was much more excited about this off-season was the penetration element Felton provided, and how it would fundamentally change the kinds of shots all of these really good shot-makers would get.

I don’t know how much time we talked about how the inability to get guard penetration played perfectly into the Heat’s hands on defense last year, but I think it was the most important conversation on the board relating to the Knicks potential with this core.

I thought the team would run a little bit more, but when you get a great shot almost every half-court trip, there is no reason to run when it’s not there.

jon abbey:
was I the only one who saw a little of Tim Hardaway in Felton for the first time tonight? that had to have been the best game of his life considering the competition and Melo being out, they even had LeBron on him at stretches.

DRed: Get the fuck out, ruru.You talk so much shit, so grow a thicker skin and take a little teasing like a man.Are you even a fucking Knicks fan?Ray Felton was absolutely amazing tonight-did I say he wasn’t?Felton’s a good PG, and a really nice fit for this particular team.He destroyed the Heat.But that’s not the point.How did we play so well without Carmelo?Seriously, asshole, got to Meloblogger.com if you’re going to be such a prickly bitch.

Not now, dude. You know exactly what you were trying to do. there was nothing good-natured about it.

Guys…. We blew out the Heat WITH Melo too…. Seriously? The Spurs threw away a lot more than just Carmelo Anthony and almost won too. The Wizards DID win, despite being the worst team in the NBA. If you can’t sell yourself on the fact that the Heat don’t give a shit, then they’ve proven pretty conclusively that they’re not a very good team unless they’re playing Brooklyn or Phoenix. Know how the Knicks had 5 double digit wins to start the season? The Heat have 5 double digit wins ALL SEASON, and 4 are against Phoenix and Brooklyn. They’re barely scraping by the other teams, and this is the 3rd time this year they lose by 20, 2nd time to the Knicks of course. First game doesn’t look like as much of a fluke now does it?

By the way, the shot creation argument says the team is screwed without a creator that can play like a star. Felton doesn’t have to be a star the rest of the season, but he played fucking amazing tonight, quite simply there’s your shot creator. By the way, nobody is arguing you need to be all that good at shot creation to beat a defense that’s recently given up a 100 to teams like Cleveland, Washington, and the Spurs scrubs. If they can’t guard a simple pick and roll then why are we pretending it means anything that it means anything if they won a championship last year?

Barkley just said on Inside the NBA he doesnt believe in the Knicks because they shoot too many 3pters and dont rebound. Shocking. He is announcing the game next week vs the Lakers, hope fans at MSG heckle the shit out of him.

Did Patrick Ewing take a shit in Chuck’s luggage or something? WTF is his problem? It’s like he hates NY for no reason at all. If you add LeBron and Durant to the Knicks, he’ll still probably hate the team.

Oh and just to be a dick: Tyson Chandler’s TS% this season when Melo plays: 75%

Chandler’s TS%: when Melo doesn’t play: 60%

When you factor in the 2 turnovers (out of the Knicks 7 total) it seems it wasn’t our offensive superstar that filled up the void left up Melo but the mediocre chucker that nobody wanted on this team

The Knicks actually didn’t shoot as well as you’d think, they shot under 50% on 2’s (23/47) 40% on 3’s, which is good but below our season average, and much lower than the last game against the Heat, and they shot a laughably bad 69% from the line. Jason Kidd has actually had a BETTER TS% than Chandler this year, and he had 11 points on 12 shots tonight. The Knicks didn’t shoot well with Melo out, they just managed to avoid turnovers equally well, mostly because Felton was handling everything that Melo usually would and the rest of the team is awesome at making smart plays. But this isn’t much better than the Knicks season average for offensive efficiency, and it’s lower than what the Knicks are averaging on offense when Melo is in the game (a video game like 118 points per 100 possessions)

This loss says just as much about what the Heat look like now than it does about how good our bench is. Again, in extremely similar conditions last week, the Spurs almost won despite benching EVERYONE. Even the biggest Melo nut-hugger would have to admit that losing Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, and Green is a bit more severe than just losing Melo. If you think that this team without Melo is better than San Antonio’s scrubs and Washington’s best players (which I absolutely do) then this result isn’t very surprising.

I have been “elevated” since the Tyson dunk to make it 109-88. Take elevated as you would if you were watching Half Baked.

This is the most impressive Knicks win I can remember in my lifetime. Ball movement and assisted 3’s with a sprinkinling of hero shots. That is a recipe for success and they didn’t even have to respect our significant mid-range threats in Melo who has been a beast this season and STAT who is still rehabbing.

I know STAT’s reinvolvement with the team will affect minutes, rotations, starting lineups, etc. If he can fit his game into the system and show the growth defensively he showed last year under Woodson this team can be deadly.

Spoelstra talked about the vertical threat Tyson provides before the game. He is an absolutely integral part of our offense and one that adds a certain cutting edge to the offense in terms of how decisive his actions are.

Felton is just a pitbull. Always probing and attacking and today he just had it going from outside. He really seems to relish the New York across his chest.

Can’t wait to see how good our defense can be once Shumpert is back and if STAT can get it going…

Everyone will play harder in the playoffs. There are structural flaws to their team that are exposed every game.

Still the favorites to win the East? You have to give that to them and they have the best player of all-time who can go 40-10-10 in a series.

Is Wade fading? hard to argue no. Everyone knew it would catch up to him, a guy so reliant on his amazing explosion. I don’t know the last time I’ve seen his patented two-step finish from a screen and roll.

Every once in a while he’ll show flashes.

Also, the Heat’s wing defenders are older than the Knicks. So, we all should laugh when people talk about age issues. Allen, Miller, Battier, Lewis… these guys are old and the Heat rely on perimeter rotations more than any team in the league.

I said the Knicks would make it a long series with Miami in the ECF. I think that these two blowouts are the most important thing to happen all year. Psychologically, it imprints something in the collective minds of both squads that will always be returned to in another game situation.

I think the intimidation and fear is totally gone. Frankly, that was what the Heat relied on last year. They were incredible when they sensed weakness and those runs were pretty much incomparable.

But you give the Knicks 4 chances at MSG, if they can steal one one the road. with that crowd and with core guys hungry for a ring, man, that could be really incredible.

We played good defense (which we’ve been doing with and without Melo) and we hit 18 three pointers — 18. Look at the video –fourteen of them were contested threes. You don’t make fourteen contested threes in a game. If you look at the Melo game where we also crushed them by 20, we got many more open looks from three. Just watch the three point attempts from both games.. I posted a link earlier in this post. That win was no indictment on Melo or ruru.

DRed:
Where’s ruru tonight?No hockey assists, no Kobeassists from Melo, no shot creators, and we fucking crushed a 12-4 defending champion on the road.How did that happen?