Wiki-Index

Please note: While we still welcome comments regarding Wiki-Index, we will no longer be maintaining the index.

Wiki-Index: ExP’s mission is not to tear down, but to defend the Truth of God’s Word and protect the sheep from being deceived. We expose lies and error of all teacher, preachers and organizations, some of whom shamefully and falsely fly under the umbrella of Free Grace.

We will post quotes from and links to ministries, Pastors and teachers who, in our opinion, are teaching and preaching a false message of “works based” Lordship “Salvation” (LS) or Calvinism, which teachings are contrary to the clear, sound Biblical message of God’s Salvation by Grace alone through Faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, without any requirement for “works” before or after salvation is freely granted by God through our Faith in Jesus Christ.

How: Hover your cursor over the name of choice and read the balloon quote. Some links are click-able by which you may read the actual Statement of Faith or articles from which we quote, most of which are from ExP. Warning: Links with a ≠ sign preceding the name will take you to the actual document or site, which will either have or explain the doctrinal error. Beware.

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486 responses to “Wiki-Index”

Chas – since I was both commenters, I thought I’d clarify. The Randy White married (ex) to Paula White is who that guy was, and yes, flamboyant 🙂

The second Randy White is a grace teacher who goes into the hyper mode on division. The odd thing is I notice often they divide in the epistles while not dividing in other Scriptures. He was in one of our groups on Facebook. When the admins disagreed with him on hyperdispensationalism, he did not take it well. Jim Floyd also did a warning at that time. So while I can’t remember specifically what we were speaking of, the Jewish believers and Gentile believers were being divided, exactly opposite of what God intended for us at the cross, one new man.

Thanks for the links, johninnc. The first link having to do with hyper-dispensationalism strikes a chord with me. I noticed that Randy White tends in that direction as I went through his series on dispensationalism. He did a pretty good job of laying out what various dispensationalists teach, but as he went on he expressed some hyper-D views.

As to the thread mentioning RW in the context of flamboyant TV preachers like Benny Hinn, I dunno what that’s about. Watching RW on his website, preaching from his small church in New Mexico, “flamboyant” isn’t a word I’d apply to him. With his shaved head, he certainly isn’t likely to use hair spray excessively. Maybe a different Randy White was in view on that thread.

I notice Randy White is on the list. What’s his specific error? I’ve heard him make the claim to believe in Free Grace, but stopped listening to him during his study on 1st Corinthians after he kept insisting that the Corinthian church was “mostly Jewish”, and that the word “saint” applied only to Jewish Christians. His logic on that point fell apart at 1st Cor. 12:2, which he tried to explain away by saying, “Well ‘Gentiles’ doesn’t actually mean Gentiles…” I got tired of cutting him slack.

Johninnc – I remember Jack warning me years ago. I think I used his Bible verses on discipleship vs. believers. There are so many but it was helpful. Jack told me so I specifically went looking on articles and the first thing I noticed is he didn’t refute the P in Tulip, since he believes the same way the Calvinists do. And like JMac says and evidently Zeller agrees, the ‘P’ in TULIP is synonymous with loadship salvation.

Middletown Bible Church – George Zeller
Had to add, he uses the 2 Cor 13:5 ploy also (examine yourselves to see if you are saved) and also does the 2 Pet 1:10 (make your calling and election sure) as if to say you have to work to see if you are really saved.

To add to Middletown Bible Church’s errors for searching purposes (aka George Zeller).

I was doing some research on Pink for a potential article, and this came up.

Middletown:

In this chapter Pink belabors the point that it is possible for a person to believe in Christ and not really be saved. Such “belief” falls short of true saving faith. As Pink says, “There is a ‘believing’ in Christ which does not save.” This point is well made and can certainly be demonstrated in the Scriptures. The Bible does speak of a kind of faith which is not saving faith. Pink gives some excellent examples of this. In Luke 8:13 we have a description of those who BELIEVE for a while (for a time) but then fall away, having no root. In 1 Corinthians 15:2 the implication is made that it is possible for a person to believe in vain, and those who believe in vain are not saved. In John 3:2 we see that Nicodemus believed in Christ in the same sense that many others did (see John 2:23), but he needed to be born again. In John 8:31 the Lord Jesus spoke to those Jews who believed on Him, but as you read the verses which follow it seems clear that these Jews were unregenerate (see verses 33,37,44). Other examples could be cited and Pink touches on many of them.

I didn’t think they could get 100% wrong.Wrong on Luke 8:13 They believed, didn’t mean they lost their salvation.Wrong on 1 Cor 15:2, the ‘implication’ is answered in the way it is asked. If Christ is not risen (He is) then we have believed in vain.Wrong on John 3:2 – Nicodemus didn’t ‘believe in Christ’. He knew he was a ‘teacher’ who ‘God was with’. Won’t even go into John 2:23 which has nothing to do with the quality of faithWrong on John 8:31-32 Those Jews Jesus tells what to do now that they have believed. And Zeller judges them to be unregenerate trying to lump in the believers with the entire crowd of Pharisees later?

Anyways, I’m sure if I had continued reading past the first paragraph there would have been far more, but I had to come and add this in.

It is 100% prophetically accurate that there are many false teachers and only few sound ones. When Jesus said prophetically that many would go to Hell and only few would go to Heaven. Don’t look at the large amount of falsehoods and lies out there and get discouraged, rather see it as a simple confirmation of what God said would happen, also as an opportunity to win souls of course,

Truth is always found amogst the last places you look. I sought truth for many years before even considering the Bible as the only authority on it. Just like all those big official easy-to-find “Christian” websites and other sources, they are usually wrong because why would Satan let truth become popular under his world system? Then came along a website with a kind of odd name and not as well known as gotquestions.org or catholic.com, but lightyears more honest and truthful.

“expreacherman.com”. Quality > Quantity. What good is being popular, if you are wrong? I’d rather be unpopular, for being correct.

On one hand Packer tries to defend Calvin by saying, ‘the council and others agreed to it’, but he conveniently leaves out the fact that this same council in November 1552, declared Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a “holy doctrine which no man might speak against.”

The anti-Trinitarian campaigner Servetus was burned at Geneva in 1553, and this is often seen as a blot on Calvin’s reputation. But weigh these facts:

1. The belief that denial of the Trinity and/or Incarnation should be viewed as a capital crime in a Christian state was part of Calvin’s and Geneva’s medieval inheritance; Calvin did not invent it.

2. Anti-Trinitarian heretics were burned in other places beside Geneva in Calvin’s time, and indeed later — two in England, for instance, as late as 1612.

3. The Roman Inquisition had already set a price on Servetus’ head.

4. The decision to burn Servetus as a heretic was taken not only by Calvin personally but by Geneva’s Little Council of twenty-five, acting on unanimous advice from the pastors of several neighboring Reformed churches whom they had consulted.

5. Calvin, whose role in Servetus’ trial had been that of expert witness managing the prosecution, wanted Servetus not to die but to recant, and spent hours with him during and after the trial seeking to change his views.

6. When Servetus was sentenced to be burned alive, Calvin asked for beheading as a less painful alternative, but his request was denied.

7. The chief Reformers outside Geneva, including Bucer and the gentle Melanchthon, fully approved the execution.

The burning should thus be seen as the fault of a culture and an age rather than of one particular child of that culture and age. Calvin, for the record, showed more pastoral concern for Servetus than anyone else connected with the episode. As regards the rights and wrongs of what was done, the root question concerns the propriety of political paternalism in Christianity (that is, whether the Christian state, as distinct from the Christian church, should outlaw heresy or tolerate it), and it was Calvin’s insistence that God alone is Lord of the conscience that was to begin displacing the medieval by the modern mind-set on this question soon after Servetus’ death.

Johninnc, I missed your last comment about the parlay card, and becoming pretty daunting. I see this every day with the confusion that is out there. The fear, the division, the poor people being mislead by these haughty men. I thought I’d come and add another comment for interest on one of the false teachers here. I’ll separate it.

John, I appreciate you, and also your comment which I re-read on the burial which I don’t always remember to mention. We have the obvious fact that throughout the examples of the gospel being preached after the crucifixion, we see various things that are just implicit in the message without being mentioned.

I.E. repentance is never used once in the book of John, but none of us deny a change of mind/thinking about something in our background happens when we believe upon Christ as our Savior. So, it’s good to give someone the facts, but to keep the simplicity that is in Christ, so we don’t somehow cause confusion, and may we all continue to grow in the Word of His grace.

Within that system, I don’t even see the point of trying. My only hope is if I am elect. If I am elect, God will automatically make me godly, so why stress myself out? If I am not automatically godly, then I am unelect, and as the fools say, John 3:16 does not apply to me. For Biblically, once I am saved, there is a possibility of being fruitful or fruitless, so there is a point in trying, but not according to the flesh.

Tozer… What a wicked statement truly — another that the Pharisees love.

“Oh God, I thank You that I am not a vile sinner like those others. Before I was ‘regenerated’ I did all these WONDERFUL WORKS (Matt 7), promised to do better, and became reformed in a S.A. (Sinner’s anonymous program) in which we studied Calvin’s institutes, C.H. Spurgeon, and others who understand what our part is in salvation.

P.S., I was at the top of my reformed class (if I do say so myself). Why don’t the other’s sinners strengthen up, and see that they need to be godly before they can be born again?”

My friend Luke was invited to a “Bible Study” by a neighbor, in which they will be studying a book by A.W.Tozer. I gave Luke the following Tozer quote and told him that it was LS. Please pray for Luke to stand strong and to put on God’s full armor. Please also pray that the host of this “Bible Study,” and any other deceived participants, would turn away from the wicked, heretical doctrine of A.W. Tozer.

Tozer quote:

In the Bible the offer of pardon on the part of God is conditioned upon intention to reform on the part of man. There can be no spiritual regeneration till there has been a moral reformation. That this statement requires defense only proves how far from the truth we’ve strayed.

My comment: Eternal life is a gift, not a trade for our agreement to moral reform.

Mary, I see some problems with participating in a church that has a false gospel:

1. You are indicating to others that you think the church is doctrinally sound. If it’s not, you are really going to confuse the people to whom you are trying to be a light.

2. You will likely be subjecting yourself to a steady diet of spiritual poison, which could lead to compromise on the gospel.

3. If you support the church financially, you are aiding and abetting its evil deeds.

4. By attending, you are tacitly agreeing with their false version of the gospel.

If a church wants to hear the truth, and invites you in to teach them, that’s another matter. But, even in that situation you need to know when to “cut bait.” If the church remains in a compromised position with respect to the gospel, or maintains association with any organization that corrupts the gospel, I would stop working with it

Hi Guys,
What I would like to know if Lordship Salvation/Arminianism and Calvanism is false, which is pretty much what the whole church is made up of, there is probably a minority of churches out there that preach grace, I live in Australia can’t find any, there is one but too far to travel, and I don’t attend a church, I fellowship in a small group, is it not biblical if we attend these churches out there, that are mainly Baptist that are not clear on the gospel.

Could we not go to the Lordship churches and be a light or attend their bible studies to allow them to hear the gospel. We would not attend a Calvanist church or a Pentecostal church, is it the subtletly of Lordship that would make us think that its okay.

My question is how can we really stand on Romans 16.17 Mark those that cause division, we would really have to be pretty much alone, if we want to be obedient to the word of god. Is it that we don’t really want to pay the price of being the remnant and alone, I know that no church is perfect but for me I can’t have anything to do with these churches.

The small groups are under attack to, so I think if we even can’t agree on things in the small groups will we be expected to just stand alone or with maybe one or 2 other christians.. Sometimes in the groups it may not necessarily be a doctrinal issue, sometimes it can be a personality clash, i guess where there are people there are challenges.

Very sad and difficult times we are living in….Lots of christians are losing their churches, I hope this article will help others out there who maybe are becoming disillusioned with the apostasy out there, I’m sure most of the ex-preacherman bloggers out there are facing this difficulty out there, some have been doing it alone for years.

Holly, according to this guy’s false teaching, you must determine whether you have “received it into your heart” and “acted on it” to determine whether or not you have eternal life. To what extent does he think you need to have acted in it?

According to this false teaching, your assurance would have to come from assessing your “change in attitude” toward sin, yourself, and the world.

Pastor Charles Lawson Temple Baptist church, from his sermon on ‘True Repentance’.“If repentance is not part of the Gospel, why did the Jews say, ‘That God hath now to the Gentiles granted repentance?’ If repentance is not part of the Gospel, then you’re just believing some facts, and nothing goes on inside you to change who you are. The change is when you’ve received it into your heart and acted upon it. And once you received it into your heart and act upon it, a profound change is going to take place. Your attitude towards sin is going to change. Your attitude towards your self’s going to change. Your attitude towards the world is going to change. You’re going to change. That is repentance, not just changing your mind.”

Here we see Charles Lawson’s definition of repent/repentance.

His sermon ‘Repentance’

“You’ve heard it defined, repentance, Bible repentance as simply meaning a change of mind. See, a change of mind. They limit it to mean that—a change of mind, you’ve changed your mind. Bible repentance is FAR MORE than simply ‘a change of mind.’
Is it simply belief or is there more to it?”
He uses the demon believing and trembling in James 2:19 as his example for those who ‘simply believe’ and he goes on to explain why ‘they are not saved’.
He goes on to quote the ‘granddaddy’ of ‘our type’. They say, ‘repenting is not about repenting of a bunch of sins’.
He quotes another to refute them for saying we don’t have to repent of our sins to be saved, that we teach it’s just a change of mind. In one of the videos he flip-flops to say you don’t have to say every last sin but to be like the humble publican who was sorry for his sins.

I know the veracity of current events is hard to determine, so it follows that trying to separate truth from fiction in old documents must also have its challenges. So, it is hard to know what parts of “church history” are actual “church history” and what parts are only “churchianity history.”

Having said that, I have always found it hard to believe that the false religion of Roman Catholicism could somehow have been “reformed.”

What I do know, from scripture, is that works for salvation is nothing new.

hollysgarcia wrote: “Luther’s grace was an infused grace, his faith – one that came to the elect alone as a gift. His sola scriptura included the Apocrypha.”

It is a well-known fact that Luther rejected the book of James. Luther’s “sola scripture” had less than 66 books, not more.

The reason for objecting to James is because James appeared to Luther to be teaching salvation by works. Luther objected to lots of other books of the Bible because he did not find enough of the gospel mentioned. Nevertheless, Luther went through with translating and publishing the entire Catholic bible, apocrypha and all. He did not want to impose his opinion about the true canon of scripture on the rest of his movement.

Now, if Luther believes in infused grace, why would he reject the epistle of James? That makes no sense. Loadshippers always love the book of James.

I have heard it said that Luther could contradict himself. When I used to study his writings, I came across places where Luther agreed with James and places where he rejected it.

Luther once made this statement for shock value: “sin boldly”. Sounds like something only either a free gracer (for shock value) or an antinomian (meant literally) would say. Yet when Johannes Agricola expressed the view that the moral law of Moses does not apply to Christians, Luther attacked him. And yet again, I recall reading the identical proposition in Luther’s own commentary on Galatians.

I am not saying this to defend or promote Luther on this site. I am saying this to correct statements about church history that to my knowledge are patently false.

Ever since coming to this site, I have wondered if free grace teaching disappeared with the apostle John and was only recovered in the 21st century. I know Lordship can’t be right, and I am one of the ones who hate it.

Another person who should be on the list is Richard Wurmbrand, who blatantly trampled the blood of Jesus under foot in his book “100 Prison Meditations”. People don’t know that, and they promote him as a great martyr.

Thank you for your kind words John and William. And William, I too have encountered the same difficulties that you have described when trying to reason with Lordship Salvationists. They are usually very hostile and aggressive toward me, but this man was graceful in his receptive response. I feel much compassion for him and the rest of my church and I think they may have previously taught that stuff in ignorance. I hope that as they are delivered from it, that they will grow in grace. I will stay there. I also prayed that when given the opportunity, I could try to reason with people caught up in Lordship Salvation (although I know not all of them will listen).

Ben, Glad to hear that your pastor responded and listened. Most of the Lordship Salvation people that I usually debate will NEVER listen, but will always insist that they’re Biblically correct and that I’m wrong. They will accuse me of being an “Arminian”, “antinomianist”,etc. Sometimes it may take years or even decades for Lordship people to come out of their heresy. I will also pray for your pastor and his church.

William. I never thought of the Parable of the Virgins and the Parable of the Talents the way that you described it, but your view does seem very plausible. I’m not sure I agree with it at this point but I definitely will consider it. Sometimes I just need time to process these things. Thank you so much for your insights though. It really means a lot.

Hey everyone, good news! My pastor responded to my email regarding his Lordship Salvation teachings, and he actually listened! He was so graceful in his response too. It was such a pleasant surprise for me because I really didn’t think he would listen, but he did. I am praying for him and everyone else at my church that they will be freed from any guilt, doubt, and fear that Lordship Salvation has caused them and that they will grow in the grace of God. Can you pray for them as well?

Ben,
When I think of these parables of servants being excluded into the “outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” this scenario comes to mind:

A parent has children that are obedient and well behaved, but at the same time have other children in the family that are disobedient, ill behaved and defiant. An upcoming celebration party that the parent is throwing is coming up where his obedient and well behaved children will be awarded with expensive toys and games.

However, the disobedient, ill behaved, defiant children will be EXCLUDED from this party celebration and will be banished down into the DARK BASEMENT where they can hear the party celebration going on upstairs where their obedient siblings are jumping for joy when they are given toys and games for their obedience. You can just imagine the response of the disobedient children at being excluded from this celebration. The disobedient children are still the parent’s children and they are in the same building, but they are excluded from this celebration.﻿

Ben,
I also wanted to add that many perceive “outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” as inconceivable for saved Christians. At the Rapture when Jesus returns we as saved Christians will be transformed into eternal bodies of flesh and bone just like Jesus body in Luke 24:39.
However, our transformed bodies will not be devoid of feelings and emotions. Did you know that Jesus newly transformed body of flesh and bone was capable of feelings and emotions?
Remember how Jesus rebuked doubting Thomas?

John 20:27 – Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe!”

Then in Luke 24:25 Jesus expresses indignant anger at Cleopas and another disciple in His newly transformed body.

Luke 24:25 – He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Also, weeping and gnashing of teeth is only a temporary emotion for the saved Christian at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but for the unsaved it will be an eternal non stop emotion at the Great White Throne Judgment. There is a difference.

I am sure that unfaithful saved Christians will experience temporary weeping and emotion at the Judgment Seat of Christ when they are denied eternal rewards and the privilege of reigning with Christ that they otherwise could have been entitled to had they lived wisely and faithfully in this life, but they are still eternally saved and in the Kingdom – 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, 2 Timothy 2:13. ﻿

The crying that saved Christians will experience is just temporary and like the Bible says, God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. Like I mentioned earlier Scripture indicates that Jesus in his newly transformed body was capable of emotion and feelings. The new bodies will experience love, joy, peace, praise, temporary sadness and regret at the Judgment Seat of Christ and indignant anger at evil in all fullness, BUT we will be unable to experience negative emotions/feelings like jealousy, envy, hate, arrogance, pride, greed, lust, etc, and all the other negatives that were once present when we were in our mortal bodies with the inborn sin nature.

Yes, I think saved Christians will weep over the fact that some of their loved ones will not believe and be in hell. God gave all men free will to choose to accept or reject the free gift of eternal life. Man decides his eternal destiny.

Ben, In regards to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30, the one verse that is very easily abused and eisegeted by Calvinist/Lordship Salvationists and Arminian/Lordship Salvationists is verse 30.

Matthew 25:30 – 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1) Matthew 8:12 – But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “Children of the Kingdom” in this context refers to saved believers of Israel who lost their opportunity and blessings. Jesus contrasted the centurion’s great faith with the faith of the Israelites in Matthew 8:10.

2) Matthew 13:42 – And they will throw them into the FIERY FURNACE, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

3) Matthew 13:50 – and throw them into the FIERY FURNACE, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

4) Matthew 22:13 – Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

5) Matthew 24:51 – Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

6) Matthew 25:30 – And throw that worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

7) Luke 13:28 – There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out.

In the instances in #2 Matthew 13:42 and #3 Matthew 13:50, those are referring to the UNSAVED being cast into the Lake of Fire as indicated in Revelation 20:11-15. Their weeping and gnashing of teeth is a PERMANENT state.

The other 5 instances refer to saved Christians TEMPORARY response at having been excluded from special joys and privileges, reigning with Christ, that they otherwise could have been entitled to had they lived faithfully and obediently in this life.﻿

There is a world of difference in the expressions “FIERY FURNACE” and “OUTER DARKNESS” that gives the context of whether weeping and gnashing of teeth is a PERMANENT or TEMPORARY expression. It also
describes what types of people are in view.

Ben, Regarding the parable of the 10 Virgins, the 5 wise virgins represent Jewish Christians in the first half of the Tribulational period who developed sufficient spiritual strength through God’s Word and through prayer. They were ready and their readiness sustained them through the tribulation. The foolish virgins represent Jewish Christians who failed to develop the spiritual strength that would enable them to live through the last three and a half years.

The 5 foolish virgins last minute rush to prepare proved to be a failure. Their lack of preparation resulted in a LOSS OF OPPORTUNITY to participate in the blessings and rewards of the kingdom. Because of their failure to prepare, the Jewish Christians also lost out on the opportunity to REIGN with Christ in His kingdom. So the door gets shut in their faces at the very last minute and they are denied by Jesus. It is important to note that Jesus response in this context is “I don’t know you”, which is much different from “I NEVER knew you” as recorded in Matthew 7:23. “I don’t know you” is a denial of privileges and opportunity from Jesus because of their failure to prepare, but “I NEVER KNEW YOU” is a denial of KINGDOM ENTRANCE from Jesus because of their failure to BELIEVE in His finished work – John 6:40.

The parable of the 10 Virgins needs to be read in light of 2 Timothy 2:12-13.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 – 12 If we suffer, we shall also REIGN WITH HIM: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL: he cannot deny himself.

I certainly have had trouble with that one too William. I tend to think there is a book of the living, or book of life in the Old Testament that seems to most often (not always) refer to those physically alive (according to Constable notes – but of course we know how commentaries can be). I also believe it refers to the book of life in the OT. Here are some of the OT references, and some seem to be (as John mentioned) a call (in the imprecatory Psalms) to end someone’s life early. Here are the references: Exod. 32:32-33; Deut. 29:20; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 12:1; cf. Exod. 17:14; Deut. 25:19; Isa. 4:3.

That comment about not blotting their name in Revelation 3 is a figure of speech I had to go look up the name, I can never remember it. It is litotes which is emphasizing the negative to emphasize the positive. I.E., it will never happen, not that it is possible to happen but never will happen. Not sure if I left you with any more help, but I’ve gone round and round on that one. The one thing I know, is one verse that seems difficult to understand doesn’t trouble me any longer when there are 100’s that say differently that the Loadship types try to make it.

So, is there a “Book of Life,” separate and distinct from “The Lamb’s Book of Life”?

I don’t think there are two “books of life.” The term “book of life” only occurs in the New Testament – once in Philippians and seven times in Revelation.

Philippians 4:3 seems to indicate that there is something unique about believers, in that they are in the book of life.

Some construe Revelation 3:5 to mean that since God will not blot out an overcomer’s name, then He will blot out someone’s name who is not an overcomer. This would lend credence to all people being in the Book of Life until they die in unbelief. I don’t ascribe to this interpretation, because it adds to scripture. This verse does not say that God will remove anyone’s name.

Revelation 13:8 affirms that Jesus was ordained to be slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 seems to affirm God’s foreknowledge, but does not suggest that God chooses those who will believe. If it did, then there would be no way to explain anyone being “in Christ” before anyone else.

Romans 16:7: Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Regarding Exodus 32:31-33, I can’t see this pertaining to the Book of Life, because everyone has sinned against God. I would think this would refer to physical life.

Regarding Psalm 69:27-28 – I think this may be an imprecatory prayer, which God would not necessarily honor.

I think you might find the comment, linked below, to be helpful on Revelation 3:5:

Ben, I have prayed that you would not be moved from the truth. I have also prayed that love and gratitude for the free gift of eternal life through Christ Jesus will motivate you in your walk with Him.

Thank you for your prayers John. I sent the email to my pastor a few minutes ago, and I prayed myself before I sent it. I am extremely nervous, so can you please pray for my spiritual and emotional stability. Whenever I try to reason with LS proponents, I am very gentle and polite, but they are usually very hostile and aggressive towards me (which sometimes causes fears and doubts). Can you also pray for my walk with the Lord, that I will continue to walk with Him simply because I want to. Not to maintain my salvation or prove that I have it, but because I love God for his kindness and mercy toward Him and I want to have a relationship with Him based on the fact that I already am saved.

John, There are 4 passages of Scripture that is causing me much confusion in my mind right now and I am hoping that you and anyone else’s insight will help clarify. According to Scripture are there actually 2 “Books of Life”??

Someone mentioned on YouTube that there is the “Regular Book of Life” which lists every human being on the face of this earth that has ever lived and then there is the “Lambs Book of Life” which lists the names of ONLY those who are eternally saved.

According to this person, names can be BLOTTED OUT from the “Regular Book of Life”, but not from the Lamb’s Book of Life.

1) Exodus 32:31-33 – 31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK.

2) Psalm 69:27-28 – 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LIVING, and not be written with the righteous.

3) Revelation 13:8 – 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB slain from the foundation of the world.

4) Revelation 17:8 – 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names WERE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Calvinist/Lordship Salvationists and Arminian Lordship Salvationists will no doubt use these 4 passages to their advantage to falsely teach that Christians can “lose” their salvation, that is, be blotted out of these books.

Ben, I have prayed for you, and for your pastor. For you, to be gentle, wise, and courageous. And for your pastor, if he has believed in Jesus as his Savior, that he will grow in grace and in knowledge of Jesus. And, if not, that he will open his mind to the truth, that he will hear the gospel in its clarity, and understand, that he might believe and be saved.

Thank you John. That makes a lot of sense. I will finish up my letter to my pastor (I have most of it written out) and send it tonight. He probably won’t listen but I’ve got to at least try. If he does not listen (and it is highly likely that he won’t) then I will find another church.

Ben, I don’t necessarily ascribe to every single thing in a parable symbolizing something. I think the parables are each designed to teach a primary point.

That said, following is an excerpt from a comment that Holly made a while back:

…my understanding on the Olivet discourses (which would include Matt 24 & 25) are spoken regarding a time, a place, and a people.

It is to finish a transgression (the last 7 years spoken to Israel in Daniel). Jesus brings up the temple falling, they ask about when shall these things be, and the sign of His coming and the end of the age. Now if the temple fell, there still has to be another temple. And they understand the abomination of desolation, and that will happen in the middle of the 7 years. Doesn’t work for AD 70, nor the Millennial kingdom didn’t happen, so it’s yet to come. At the 3-1/2 year point, when the AC sets himself up as God, that’s when they’ve (Israel) been warned to flee, who will, and who won’t, just don’t know.

I believe it’s also the same with the virgins and the oil. The oil is representative of the Holy Spirit in my understanding, some will believe, some won’t both in Israel and the Gentiles left on earth at these times (the time of the Gentiles is not over).

I have over time learned to understand that Israel are the servants spoken of in these passages. I could certainly be wrong, but this is my understanding these days. And that the hypocrites were pretenders. Not that other people won’t be involved at this time, because this time will affect all the inhabitants of the earth. But that the fullness of the Gentiles is over and Jesus has turned his attention back on Israel. They are all His elect, all are His servants, but not all will turn back to Him in belief. Those I believe are the ones who are sent to where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. (In fact we see 1/3 at the very end. (Zech 13)

For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. Lev 25:55

Regarding the parable of the talents, following is an excerpt from a comment that I made on this topic a while back:

Romans 3:1-3 may hold some clue to the meaning of these parables.

What advantage is there to being a Jew? Unto them were committed (they were entrusted with) the oracles of God (the prophets). Yet, some did not believe.

This establishes that non-believers may be given a stewardship.

Luke 12:45 says they beat the servants. Does this mean they persecuted the prophets?

Matthew 23:29-31 says the scribes and Pharisees are the children of them which killed the prophets.

If this line of interpretation is correct, then the wicked servants could represent unbelieving Jews, who despite having been given illumination, did not respond in faith – buried the illumination.

This would make these references to the wicked servant have nothing to do with his lack of works, but instead would have to do with him being denied entrance to the Milllenial kingdom, due to unbelief.

Thanks John. Although what I’m trying to figure out is, what do the symbols in these parables represent. I also do not believe that they can be teaching a hyper-dispensationalist form of works salvation during the tribulation that those of us in this dispensation are exempt from. Regarding the Parable of the Ten Virgins, I believe it could have something to do with the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses preaching the Gospel during the tribulation. The wise virgins were those who believed the Gospel and the foolish virgins were those who did not. I believe that the lamps could have been the word preached to them, and the oil could have been imputed righteousness, but I’m not entirely sure. I’m still confused on the Parable of the Servants though.

Hey guys! Could I have some help with the Parable of the Ten Virgins and the Parable of the Talents? My pastor has used those two parables to teach Lordship Salvation, and I intend to email him about it (although I know he probably won’t listen). Having read the context of the two parables, I believe that they both apply to Israel during the tribulation, but I am not entirely sure what they mean. I know for a fact that they cannot be teaching Lordship Salvation, but can you guys help?

William, concerning this comment (which I don’t know whether it was you or the commentator).

I believe that because of the Latin Vulgate’s influence that we now have a translation error carried over into the KJV version of Luke 12:46 which will no doubt will be used by Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists to falsely teach that unfaithful Christians prior to the Lord’s return will be assigned a place with “unbelievers” which in their minds would be hell and that such people were “never saved to begin with”.

Luke 12 does not speak to Christians at all.

Peter asks Jesus if He is speaking that parable to all or to them, (since He had warned of the leaven of the Pharisees, and also speaks to the crowd, The Lord answers with who He is speaking about:

>> Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Jesus said; I am not sent >>>but unto the >>lost sheep of the house of Israel.

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt 10:5-6

Which house is spoken of? I believe this addresses Israel as a whole, and they were to give the Gentiles their meat in due season, but they did not.
To Israel was promised, a house, a throne and a kingdom.

They were to rule over His household. He talks about ‘they’ (the Pharisees), the ‘nations of the world’ are addressed in vs. 30. He speaks of the synagogues they will be tried in, and He speaks of the return from the wedding (That addresses the marriage between the Lamb and the church). The servant that is appointed a portion with the unbelievers, I see only as an unbelieving Israelite. Israel is His servant, over, and over and over again, they are addressed as His servant. They were to be the light to the Gentiles, they were to give the people the meat in due season, they were to rule well over the household. Verse 40 addresses the second coming, so who is it that Jesus could possibly be addressing? His servant after the second coming. That will be Israel, both believers and unbelievers.

Mary – reading more now. Ron Shea told me when he did his translations, he would translate back, like English to Italian and Italian to English and change some words if necessary to see it come back better. A little more work but worth it. I’d pray about it and first worry about your dad understanding the gospel. I wouldn’t talk to him of things of Calvinism etc., just tell him you’ll do your best to find him the best literal translation once you do a little research. I believe the Lord can preserve His Word for us in all languages. Why do men see it differently? I think it’s because they are not in the strong meat of His Word and cannot discern between good and evil. Knowing the whole counsel of His Word makes us better able to answer questions.

The Geneva Bible’s issues were mainly with the notes in the side, even Calvin had enough fear to be concerned about that. I have a friend who has done a lot of research in these areas, Angela, I’ll see if she can come and address some of these concerns regarding the KJV or other literal translations.

Mary, the original languages were perfect, I believe God has given us some reliable translations and we are fortunate enough to have the lexicons and ways to check, there has never really been disputes on doctrine until men started making glaringly obvious changes in preferences of leaning (like the ESV I believe has too many issues). You can always study side by side, but KJV is not perfect. I did my own research, I think the literal translations are the only ones I’ll use, side by side, then if it is a matter of going further, I go to what the manuscripts say, but I still trust the Lord can show us in context and light of other Scripture. I believe Phil Stringer tries to make a case for the KJV being inspired, I sure hope not, but please proceed with caution.

I too am KJV preferred, but not legalistic about it, and if someone is, I don’t tend to argue with them either. I hope you can find some peace in it being a very good translation. I looked to find where the inconsistencies were in KJV and found that none were terribly troublesome if you knew why. Like Jesus being in place of Joshua in the KJV, not really an error in that the names are the same, but we don’t see them the same and since the two were being contrasted, it was an error to put Jesus in place of Joshua. Jesus does give us rest. When we know these things it helps. In some of the literal translations it says ‘being saved’ and in KJV it says ‘are saved’, but really the original just says Saved and the tense is in question. So good to know that it really shouldn’t be there if one had a NKJV. I like Tom Cucuzza’s Statement of Faith regarding the Scriptures, it fits how I believe also.

The Bible, in its original documents, is the inspired Word of God, the written record of His supernatural revelation of Himself to man, absolute in its authority, complete in its revelation, final in its content and without any errors in its statements. 2 Tim 2:15, Exo 24:12, Exo 32:16, Exo 34:27, Prov 30:5-6, Jer 30:1-2, Mat 5:18, Luke 1:68-70, Luke 24:25-27, John 10:35.

Yes have all ready done, waiting for a reply……thanks William I was trying to translate in the on line bibles sites, but I was wondering if there was some other app, thanks for that, just what I needed. Yes the italian bible Giovanni Diodati was translated in 1649. I just wonder like Alice said, is our KJV corrupted in someway as it was translated by Calvanists to give us the pure English, some say King James was a homosexual, i struggle with that, Free gracer Phil Stringer, said where is the evidence, I struggle to believe god would use a homosexual to translate his word and then condemn that sin. I think the enemy will do whatever he can to discredit, gods word.

What is the proof this bible we are reading is 100% correct, some say it has some errors, some say its perfect, its hard to get a reliable source on understanding how it was translated, its a real dilemma for some people in what version to trust, everyone has differing opinions on this, if mens souls rest on gods word, we would want to be making sure its gods pure unadulterated word. God promised he would preserve his word for all the generations. There is much confusion with which bible to read for some, for me I wouldn’t use the new versions (perversions) especially the NIV, it has some 64,000 errors in it, it completely changes the meaning and is used as a non-offensive bible to cater for the masses and different denominations, it is the main bible used in all of the BSF bible studies, which is a huge world wide woman and mens bible study.

The King James controversy is a big one, it can take weeks to search it all out. Listening to Phil Stringers teaching to see what he has to say on the matter in a little more depth than others……

If the KJV translators of 1611 were influenced by the Geneva Bible and Bishop’s Bible which were translated by Calvinists from Geneva, how can we be sure that the KJV Bible we are using is not corrupted in some way leaning towards Calvinism? I thought William Tyndale is responsible for almost 80% of the KJV Bible which we use today. Wasn’t he the guy who was burnt at the stake for daring to translate the Bible into English so that the English-speaking people can have a Bible to read in their own language?
I am quite sure he pre-existed the Geneva Bible and was not influenced by it.
I do know that KJV is a word-for-word translation rather than a para-phrase like NIV, RSV which also derived from the corrupt Westcott and Hort’s Alexandrian Codex Vaticanus and Sinaticus manuscripts.

I agree with John’s recommendation of “The Gospel” booklet, by Ron Shea. You can use GoogleTranslate which would be a good way to translate from English into Italian. You can take Bible verses and type it in GoogleTranslate under the Italian option. I love GoogleTranslate!

Here’s Romans 4:2-6 in the KJV in Italian for example from GoogleTranlsate:

Regarding the KJV of the Bible I recently found out the following information which is shocking to me.

The Latin Vulgate Bible which was the official Bible of Roman Catholics, molded Calvin’s theology as expressed in his “institutes of the christian religion” and because Calvin was fluent in Latin he used that corrupt translation. It was composed by Jerome at the beginning of the 5th century. The council of Trent in 1546 declared it to be an official Bible.

The influence of the Latin Vulgate eventually spread into the Protestant movement and for 1000 years this corrupt translation was the ONLY Bible known and read in Western Europe. All bible commentaries were based on the Vulgate text and preachers based their sermons on it.

The Vulgate was saturated with Augustinian views on predestination and the rejection of free will. The Vulgate had many inaccuracies, inconsistencies and arbitrary dealing in particulars. Samuel Berger who in the “Cambridge History of the English Bible, vol. 3 (S.L. Greenslade, ed., Cambridge, England: University Press, 1963, 414) said that the Latin Vulgate is “the most vulgarized and bastardized text imaginable.”

Unger’s Bible Dictionary comments, “For many centuries it (Vulgate) was the only Bible generally used….In the age of the Reformation the Vulgate influenced popular versions. That of Luther (N.T. in 1523) was the most important and in this the Vulgate had great weight. From Luther the influence of the Latin passed to our own Authorized Version (KJV)….

This corrupt translation had a strong influence upon the Protestant churches in Europe, England, and America. That influence carried over into the Geneva Bible as well as other versions of the English Bible, and even into the KING JAMES BIBLE of today. I have reason to believe that the “GIOVANNI DIODATI’ is affected because of the strong influence of the Latin Vulgate.

Also, the widespread influence of the Geneva Bible which was published in 1560 that dominated the English speaking world for a hundred years and because the Pilgrims and Puritans brought the Geneva Bible to the shores of the New World, many American colonists were brought up on the Geneva Bible.

The purpose of the Geneva Bible was to indoctrinate readers into Calvinism and was inaccurately marketed as “Reformation truth” as if Calvinism and Protestantism are the same.

I hear and can understand your frustration. I believe that because of the Latin Vulgate’s influence that we now have a translation error carried over into the KJV version of Luke 12:46 which will no doubt will be used by Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists to falsely teach that unfaithful Christians prior to the Lord’s return will be assigned a place with “unbelievers” which in their minds would be hell and that such people were “never saved to begin with”. Then we have Armininianists who will of course falsely teach that unfaithful Christians prior to the Lord’s return will be assigned a place with the “unbelievers” meaning that such people will “lose” their salvation.

Now, you asked how people can use the same Bible and come up with something different?

It is because some people bring preconceived beliefs into their understanding of scripture. This is the essence of “leaning on one’s own understanding.” Ron Shea puts it like this:

Rather than coming to scripture to learn the mind of God, some unregenerate men approach scripture determined to justify the beliefs they already hold…

Not surprisingly therefore, those who believe that they, rather than Jesus Christ, are the Savior of their own souls, have, for centuries, sought from Scripture proof-texts to justify this conclusion.

Mary, you are wise to be concerned about Roman Catholics being highly susceptible to other false religions, such as JW, Pentecostalism, Arminianism, And Calvinism/LS. Satan is delighted by people trading one false religion for another.

Without knowing a good Italian Bible translation personally, I would invite others to comment.

In the meantime, I would heartily recommend that you give your father the Italian translation of “The Gospel” booklet, by Ron Shea. The booklet emphasizes how we can know we have eternal life, based on God’s promise alone (using John 5:24). Please find the booklet linked below:

Hi Guys,
Really need everyones help here. I have been witnessing to my italian parents especially my dad, who attends a catholic church, I bought him a bible at a pentecostal church 5 years ago not knowing it was an NIV bible as it was in italian. Since then I now understand the grace gospel, and that the charasmatics, Calvanists and Catholics all have a works salvation gospel.

The other night my father spent 3 hours discussing things in the bible which is good, but he cannot accept that we can know we have eternal life in the bible. I took him to ephesians 2. 8 9 and he read 10 as well and said we have to have faith plus works. Showed him 1 John 5. 13 as well.

I encountered an atheist too the other week, and he said he went to bible studies and said the bible can’t be trusted, that all the churches should be burnt down and that there is no god, heaven, hell or a devil. That encounter with me really shook me up.I didn’t believe him, but it was a really big attack…

So in the course of trying to bring my dad to faith, he told me if the NIV version can’t be trusted, buy me a king james, I did not realise how hard it would be to get an italian bible in king james, I have a real concern for italian people in the catholic church, as most of them end up in the Jehovah witnesses church or the pentecostal/charasmatic church, so i rang up a depot, and in my findings I was told that the “GIOVANNI DIODATI’ which is the KJV in italian was written by Calvanists and was shocked, so i thought what hope has an italian in finding truth, because when they come out of catholicism, there is no real church, in italian to attend. The only one we have here in Australia is pentecostal who are Arminian and lordship.

When the elderly gentleman just rang me today, i told him that the italian bible was Calvanistic, he said to me, all king james bibles are translated by Calvanists, this truly shocked me, as I detest the doctrine of Calvanism.

So now I am at a loss, the question I have for you. How can a free gracer and a Calvanist use the same bible and come up with something different.
Please help this is really troubling to me. I wonder how did people get saved before King James was translated. I am having such an onslaught of doubts please help…….

If we are to live by every word of god, I want to know that the bible I am reading is god speaking to me…. I will now do a study of how the bible came into being to satisfy myself and that can the KJV can really be trusted.

The Law is as much an enemy to Grace as the sin nature
because I can use the law to produce human good in the energy of the flesh and become just as immoral as someone one not even making an effort

“The old sin nature includes your area of weakness, which produces sin, your area of strength which produces human good, and there’s a lust pattern in your area of weakness. When you’re out of fellowship
in your area of weakness you produce sins and in your area of strength you produce human good.”

how do we maintain fellowship with God ?
Confess sin admit failure to God as the private royal priest in Christ Jesus you are

These are great comments. I wish I had heard them when I was consistently rejected for asking the questions you all posed. Because I realized I was not ‘super spiritual’, I always figured I was the one who had it wrong (until I started to just pray and read His Word). It took awhile, but things started to become clearer. Then I started to search His Word for answers, and pray when I didn’t understand. I didn’t (mostly) look for men’s interpretation on it because I was afraid. Still, it took some years. Now I am thankful for the multitude of counsellors (who go to His Word for the answers).

Ben Wrote
“Did anyone else ever notice that common trait among Lordship Salvationists?”

No and Yes
while saved and under the influence of a works orientation another gospel. No i did not notice the smell when i was in the barn.
Yes once im out in the fresh air of the clear clean pure air of the Gospel of Grace. i stank bad and didn’t know it.
Yes i do see it as a common trait. most times i can now pick up the smell of a works gospel in the pressured speach of teachers and pastor’s.

I know this is a late response, but thank you Johnninc, Curtis, and Angela for your encouraging and helpful words in reply to my last comment, Now regarding Kay Arthur, I will not dare look at her teachings. But what Shane said about her arrogance, and her disciples’ arrogance, makes me think of many other Lordship Salvationists. When writing articles or posting comments on social media, Lordship Salvationists tend to have this aggressive, argumentative, condemning, condescending, harsh, sanctimonious tone. Did anyone else ever notice that common trait among Lordship Salvationists?

Hello all,
The Kay Arthur quote floors me. If I had read that just a year prior from today it would have caused serious confusion and fear.
It is unattainable to achieve what they (works-based salvationists) claim is required to be saved without Christ.
This “gospel” that Kay Arthur preaches turns people away. I have seen it happen over and over again, and in an up close and personal way.

I am also glad to see Steve Anderson mentioned. That guy…smh.
I ran across him last fall. He made claim that a man isn’t a man if he sits when he uses the restroom. I shook my head, added him to “Um, No!” list. One of my sons has a medical issue and cannot stand “like a real man” when he uses the lavatory. The guy is wacky and cultish. His wife’s blog is also to be avoided.

Yes, Kay Arthur. So lordship. Ran into her on the mission field years ago. Some arrogance there, and her disciples were extremely arrogant, treating her like she can do no wrong.

There is another teacher that might be in the “up and coming” category, maybe he’ll be “big”, maybe not, I don’t know. All I know is, he keeps appearing on my facebook wall, shared by friends that say things like “YOU HAVE TO HEAR THIS MAN!!”, with that level of enthusiasm. His name is Greg Locke, and I’d never heard of him. But I always investigate everybody, so here we go. He’s the leader of a fellowship in Tennessee, and here’s some details about his beliefs on salvation:

“…repentance of the heart and confession of the mouth men are born again”…

and

“…those who have trusted Christ are His and will obey Him and His Word. We do not believe a person can live any way they so desire and be saved. The Bible dogmatically declares that a person will be a new creature in Christ…”

So that takes care of that guy. Why do people love lordship teachers so much? Is there a built-in masochism in the flesh? Anyway, I’ve tossed him on the pile of lordship false teachers, a growing pile that I will have to build an add-on to accommodate.

Thanks for the quote Holly— Kay Arthur—I had heard the name but never bothered with her. She means business I tell ya. I hope her plans, her walk, her obedience, her Christianity saves her. I’ll stick with what Christ did for me and when He saved me-He changed my citizenship instantly.

Kay Arthur is Precept Ministries – this is loadship at it’s finest, just shaking my head.

“If you do not plan to live the Christian life totally committed to knowing your God and to walking in obedience to Him, then don’t begin, for this is what Christianity is all about. It is a change of citizenship, a change of governments, a change of allegiance. If you have no intention of letting Christ rule your life, then forget Christianity; it is not for you.”

I too have come to find that many Calvinistic Lordship Salvation people are arrogant, belligerent, rude, and self-righteous. I think it’s not only because of the predestination/election teachings, but because they are miserable people who have no assurance of God’s love and acceptance of them (because of their failures at turning from all sin and persevering to prove that they are “really saved”). So I think they want to pass off onto everyone else what they’re feeling in themselves (i.e. doubt, fear, insecurity, etc.). Yep, misery loves company.

Combative arrogance is a common trait among many “rock star” Calvy apologist. I could be off base but I suspect that Presuppositionalism plays a major role in this. Nothing against Presuppositionalism but I often get the feeling that for many of these people, Calvinism, not Christian faith, is the only basis for rational thought. So if your thoughts are not Calvinist, you’re off base. I also believe that it plays a large role their eisegesis—their logic trumping plain reading of text.

Yea I stopped using CARM for research and no longer use them for quotes . They do have some good articles , however they should know better when it comes to the Clear Gospel of Grace . But also a warning to me how one can go astray on the Gospel of Grace
Like Peter getting up from the table when he saw the Law keepers coming

As I said, I was able to correspond with a rep of GFM concerning this. We also discussed Schimmel’s claim that pre-trib was satanic in origin. Here’s a quote from them—[Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [“it” being the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him] will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed]. Notice how he /she purposely switched antecedents — our gathering together to Him in place of the Day of the Lord. Being purposely deceptive is how they gain a following. Listen to the Jude sermon it is horribly deceptive.

As you know, condition security and anti rapture usually go hand in hand.

RAS, anyone that says “no fruit, no root,” and those other kinds of fruit inspector things is leading people away from Christ. They are inviting the listener/reader to introspection regarding their works. If the works are lacking, perhaps the person could do more works to try to gain assurance of eternal life, or, they could try and believe again and see if it “worked” this time.

I have often been directed to CARM as an authoritative resource when engaged with certain LS types. —[After all, 1 John 2:4 says that if we say we are Christians and then go out and sin willfully, that we are not really saved to begin with] this exemplifies the eisegesis of reformed LS.

1 John 2:4 is about KNOWING our (believers) Advocate with the Father. It is not a call to sinless perfection or a test of justification but rather an exhortation to abide by keeping the commandments of Christ. Think back to the passage in John’s Gospel about abiding and the Helper (Jn 13-16). Jesus washes the feet of the disciples telling them that they were already bathed and are completely clean (except Judas). Jesus explains that washing of the feet (confession of sins) was necessary in order to maintain “part” (close, communal fellowship) with HIm. Completely clean Peter is told that he will willfully deny Christ 3 times before the next morning. Completely clean Phillip ask Christ to show him the Father and completely clean Phillip is reprimanded for not KNOWING Christ. There is nothing to suggest that that 1 John 2:4 says what CARM claims but over whelming evidence to the contrary.

Todd Friel of Wretched Radio is also often cited as authority (YouTube- Duggar Disaster II: is Josh a false convert?) and his take is the same as CARM i.e. no fruit no root.

Also Joe Schimmel of Good Fight Ministries could be added to the list but he is of the other LS stripe. He gave a sermon where he twisted Jude’s epistle in to a polemic against eternal security and those that teach it.

I know that John. Self-examination is an impossible foundation for assurance. For that reason, I will stand with a historical dispensationalist and say, “Were I to examine self for a thousand years, I should never find it to be anything else than a worthless, ruined, vile thing — a thing which God has set aside and which I am called to reckon as “dead.” How could I ever expect to get any comforting evidences by such an examination? Impossible. The Christian’s evidences are not to be found in his ruined self, but in God’s risen Christ. The more he can get done with the former and occupied with the latter, the happier and holier he will be.”

Well said John. I personally could never have assurance of salvation by looking at my own works, conduct, etc., etc. I’ve also found that in context of 1 John 2:4, the commandments are not the 10 Commandments but Jesus’ New Testament commandments, referenced in 1 John 3:23, to believe on Him as Savior and love one another. I don’t have a complete understanding of 1 John, but I do know that at the time, John wrote that epistle to protect the body of Christ from infiltrating Gnostics who were spiritually damaging them. I will also add that from what I read, and with references such as “little children,” John had absolutely no doubt that his readers were saved.

After all, 1 John 2:4 says that if we say we are Christians and then go out and sin willfully, that we are not really saved to begin with.

My comment: No, it doesn’t. Our conduct, including the motive for our conduct, can never be a test of our salvation. If it were, then eternal life could not be by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If we have to look to our conduct, we can never have assurance.

a. Repentance is a ‘full turning to God’
b. Repentance is ‘willing to turn from sin albeit imperfectly’
c. Repentance is a ‘forsaking of sins’
d. Repentance ‘presents the body, soul, and spirit as a living sacrifice
e. Repentance is ‘surrender to God and turning from sin’
f. Not repenting (turning from sin) is ‘wanting salvation without the Lord’
g. Not repenting (turning from sin) is one who wouldn’t ‘embrace the truth’
h. Not repenting (turning from sin) is one who ‘wouldn’t suffer persecution for it’
i. Not repenting (turning from sin) is one who ‘wouldn’t turn away from the world’
j. Not repenting (turning from sin) is one who wants to live their own lives rather than ‘live for God’.

This is another great example of those who say one thing and mean another. Brenda Nickel supposedly preaches against lordship but demonstrates a clear lack of understanding with her above definition of repentance. Now notice how she continues after wrongly defining repentance.

(John, I felt you would like to see how she defines the soils).

Her definition is turning from sin, surrendering to God, fully turning to God, dropping your sin, desiring not to sin, forsaking your sin, presenting your body a living sacrifice, etc.

What’s the Danger in not Repenting?

It demonstrates wanting salvation without the Lord! It’s quite possible to know facts about salvation, even pray a prayer for salvation, yet have no desire for God to be part of your life!

Notice the first parable of Jesus; the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13). All the soils heard truth. The first wouldn’t embrace it, the second wouldn’t suffer persecution for it, and the third wouldn’t turn away from the world for it. While the first three soils recognized truth, they turned aside from it and in doing so turn away from the Lord. They wanted to live their own lives rather than live for God. The fourth not only hears and understands truth, by implication this soil embraces truth, suffers for truth and shuns the world for truth. Therefore, its growth is not stunted because it overcomes to replicate itself in producing a crop. How do Christians reproduce? Through evangelism that gives out truth, suffers persecution for witnessing and gives up self for the advancement of the gospel!

Mary, there are a couple comments here on Brenda Nickel who is one who speaks out about Calvinism, but defends both front and back door loadship/lordship. She says out of one side of her mouth she believes in salvation by faith in Christ alone (as does MacArthur) but her words say otherwise.

A commenter named Eddy went to her regarding Mark Cahill and his book “One thing you can’t do in Heaven”.

Here are some of her comments.

….it is true that real faith >FULLY turns to God and >yearns to please Him by obeying,

Brenda Nickel evidently agrees with Cahill on the ‘Biblical definition’ of repentance.

According to the Bible, which Mark Cahill takes his teachings from, repentance is surrender to God and turning from sin,

Repentance is a forsaking of sin to >present the body, soul and spirit as a living sacrifice to Christ for the furtherance of His kingdom (Citing Rom 12:1 as evidence).

She SAYS that Mark Cahill >>teaches salvation rests fully on the sacrifice of Jesus for sins, not the works of men (Eph 2:8-9). However, directly thereafter, take a look at the contradiction from their own mouths, look carefully to see the many conditions…

Fully surrendering to God and turning away from sin doesn’t guarantee a person won’t sin, but reveals a deep desire not to sin and to be united with the Lord (2 Cor 5:9).

Those who willingly drop the sin in their hands to please God with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength show they want God to be their very life

socal we appreciate your Zeal.
i was going to suggest closeing this thread but saw the beginning post .
for me personally for what it is worth that has been helpful to this day . before i listen to any teacher or teaching i first look up their website and look for doctrinal statement then go right to salvation if pass there then i look for a gospel presentation if clear there then will give a listen always on guard.
i really dont like listening to youtube vids unless they have a church and pastor has elder board.
first things first is i adopted my own personal doctrinal statement as a private priest before the Lord of glory Jesus Christ
the doctrinal statement on expreacherman is a good one and the gospel presentation.
for me comming out of fundelmentilsm of the bill gothard calvanism kind . i am very analitical sensitive
to doctrine. bad doctrine angers me quickly and best for me to avoid .
there is a price for turning from truth and not loving truth , practicing truth . You loose Grace and get blinded by religion.
i said all this for others comming out of bad doctrine is take time to take care of yourself as a private preist before the Lord. false religious doctrine has been around since cane killed able . the reigious will turn on a grace believer with a smile and a handshake .
to defend the Gospel . Proclaim the Gospel

SoCal – Jacob Prasch is a false teacher for many reasons. He teaches midrash along with one rapture video he says that in the rapture Christ comes in the ‘character of Satan’. He is an Arminian, and they are loadship along with the error of losing your salvation.

You need to add Steven Anderson to this list. He is a Holocaust denying Jew hater, and open advocate of replacement theology. He also teaches a false gospel that Jesus had to burn in Hell as payment for sins.

JR, without going to that site to read it, I know of people who say they don’t believe in Lordship “salvation”, but they don’t seem to believe in grace either. This usually manifests itself in “backdoor” Lordship “salvation,” and the insistence that good works are either automatic in the lives of believers, or even that there will be some fruit required to get into heaven.

Google “Fundamental Baptist Christian Blog” , the blogger seems to defend some LS preachers (JMac, Washer, Comfort) as if they are grace preachers. He even has articles against “Antinomianism” and “Hyper Lordship” w/c has both straw man arguments.

We have a duel nature as believers: the Spirit and flesh, and we can walk by the Spirit according to God’s will, or after the old man– the flesh and sin. We do both in this world. But this does not determine whether we are saved or not, only our acceptance of Christ’s finished work does. Christ in us is our final, perfect and saving testimony and this is the only plea. This should lead us, not the fear of the law or whether we are saved or not.

Curtis M, I couldn’t agree more. Throughout history, even today, many professing Christians have wanted to contribute something to their salvation, or done so out of pressure by works-righteous cults. The Lordship Salvationists call us apostates and say our position is more popular, although quite frankly, I see their notion of “turn from sin to be saved” to be MUCH more popular, even among ecumenical/WOF preachers like Rick Warren, Billy Graham, Greg Laurie, Mike Bickle, and the list goes on. A GREAT majority of Gospel pages I read online contained “turn from sin to be saved.” Recently while I was surfing the internet, I saw Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Catholics define repentance the same way the Lordship crowd does, as “turning from sin.” Although Lordship Salvationists are much more subtle in their works-righteous teachings, they are really no different than the Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I spoke with a friend about Lordship Salvation a few weeks ago and she even said that the Lordship Salvationists sound much like the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I ventured back into the realm of online “Christianity” (away from this site, that is) last night and it was so discouraging. I saw plenty of lies, and even a commenter abuse an atheist in the name of Christ. Another, perhaps the same one, just commanded everyone to repent (of sins) but not once preached the good news. They are indeed cruel, religious people, many of whom will be shocked when they hear the worst words a person can hear “I never knew you”.

I don’t deserve to be known by Him but I believe, through the Gospel of His grace, that He knows me.

I couldn’t agree more. Thank you John. I am actually rereading the Gospel of John and taking notes on it. It’s been a major blessing to me so far. Yes, salvation does not hinge upon our promises or good intentions. But when we fix our eyes on Jesus, understanding that He loves us paid for our sins in full, it should make us want to love Him back and serve Him more. When we abide with Christ in close fellowship based on those truths, we intimately feel His presence and our Christian life is full of peace and joy.

Ben, you are wise to disregard what early church fathers, reformers, are any other modern or historic preacher says. If it doesn’t line up with the word of God, it’s not true, no matter who says it.

God is so gracious,that even when we were without strength, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He is so gracious. He didn’t even require that we want to have a relationship with Him in order to be saved. But, like you said, once we believe that He paid the full price for our sins, our relationship is restored.

John 1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And, when we focus on His love for us, it should engender our love for Him.

I think works “salvation” has been predominant for most of recorded history.

Amen John, amen. We love Him because He first loved us. We trusted Him as our Savior. And He is also our Lord, not in the sense that we surrendered everything to Him, but that we are now eternally reconciled to Him in a fully restored relationship, and to us He is like a parent to a child or a king to a citizen. Lordship Salvationists malign us, say our position is more popular and that we have departed from historical authentic faith, although quite frankly, I am seeing a LOT more of Lordship Salvation today than I am free grace. I trust Jesus alone for my salvation and I do not care what the Early Church Fathers, Reformers, or any other modern or historic “preacher” says.

I know John. I have seen the fruits of Lordship Salvation, and it’s not good fruit. Many hearts and lives have been damaged by this teaching- including me to some extent. I have been a Christian for about 2 and a half years, and I have been wrestling with Lordship Salvation ever since the beginning. Thankfully, the Lord has put a lot of faithful brothers and sisters in my life to help me recover. I am still recovering, struggling along the way but making good progress.

Macarthur, Washer, Piper, Chan, Platt, Comfort, and all the other Lordship Salvationists will have much to answer to God for, saved or unsaved. Knowing that is a great comfort to me.

These men have undermined God’s love for us. We can never turn from enough sin, surrender our lives enough, or do enough good works for God to accept us. Sin is not just an issue of what we DO, it’s a matter of what we ARE, and the actions flow from that. But God still loved us enough to give His only begotten Son for us. When we look to Jesus and Jesus alone for our salvation, it gives us peace passing all understanding.

I remember times in my past as Christian while communing with God in prayer, I could feel Him look at me as though I’ve never sinned. Sometimes His Spirit compassionately gives me comfort when I struggle with works salvation doctrines and the assurance of my salvation. There were even times when I could feel an overpowering sense of God’s love for me. The Lordship crowd does not seem to understand God’s love for us.

Personally, everyday I am sorry toward God for who I am (a sinner), I know I can’t earn His love and grace, but I am thankful that He extends it to me anyway, and I look to Jesus alone for my salvation. Anything we do after we are saved should be done freely and voluntarily out of love and gratitude toward Jesus for saving us, not out of fear of going to Hell if we don’t.

I think one of the reasons for rampant carnality among Christendom is because people have grown weary from preachers who overcomplicate the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

I know I have pretty much poured my heart out, but I really feel the need to express this all. Any additional thoughts?

He is. He really is. I never had a good feeling about this man from the start. He sounds very cruel, like a lot of the Lordship Salvationists. Robert Morris is also endorsed by Mark Driscoll, another abusive church leader with X-rated content in his sermons. Robert Morris and a great majority of the Lordship crowd are truly wicked people. By the way, I found a page on testimonies on former associates of John Macarthur, whose faith was damaged by him. Here is the link

One more person I would like to add is Robert Morris of Gateway Church in Texas. I think Morris is on TV and his church is reportedly the third largest church in America. He teaches a hardcore plan of Lordship Salvation and that Christians can be possessed by demons when they sin. This man sends shivers down my spine.

I don’t know whether Tozer is a Calvinist, but he would fit my definition of a Lordship “Salvationist.”

Following is a telling quote from “The Root of the Righteous,” by A.W. Tozer:

In the Bible the offer of pardon on the part of God is conditioned upon intention to reform on the part of man. There can be no spiritual regeneration till there has been a moral reformation. That this statement requires defense only proves how far from the truth we’ve strayed.

My comment: Eternal life is a gift, not a trade for our agreement to moral reform.

Thank you John. What a shame for Joel Osteen. I could really relate to what Michael Bowen said about him. I mean Joel is very good at encouraging people but I doubt his sincerity because he literally feeds off his congregation with his health and wealth teachings (we are warned about this in 2 Peter 2:1-3) and is living in luxury. And he also preaches a false gospel. If he were sincere, preached more biblically based messages but kept his talents of encouragement, showed people their sinfulness and need of God’s mercy, preached the true gospel of faith alone, and did not deny Christ as the only way to Heaven on Larry King, he’d be one of my favorite preachers. But unfortunately that is not the case. Joel Osteen is a false teacher, and a very dangerous one.

Lol you forgot Joel Osteen. He not only preaches word of faith/prosperity gospel but also teaches a form of Lordship Salvation. Here is the sinner’s prayer he provides, “Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins, come into my heart, I make you my Lord and Savior.” What are your thoughts on this guy?

They may say grace grace unfortunately there days further definition is required there are souls who proclaim grace BUT when the rubber hits the road its works. Just like when Peter got up from the table when he saw the religious coming and Paul got in his face over it.
Myself am bent towards legalism that’s why I /we need to hold in our thoughts what the gospel is and what it is not . getting over ourselves in spite of ourselves knowing our position in Christ for Justification
Heaven is a gift to the guilty not a reward for the righteous .
Short definition of legalism is self righteousness

Phil, I’m sure you are right that Liberty sometimes has people who are clear on grace. The problem I have is if those who are truly grace and faith alone cooperate and consort with those who are not, it can leave people very confused.

I think I am clear on grace, but if I were to attend a Southern Baptist Church (that adheres to the Baptist faith and message, which is not clear on grace), I feel that I would be sending mixed signals at best. I would be telling people, by association, that grace plus works for eternal life is OK. If not, why would I be associating with them? Another problem with these kinds of associations is that those who are clear on grace may start to become “tone deaf” to distortions of the gospel over time, and even start to incorporate some of the concepts into their explanations of the gospel.

Grace is not just the preferred approach to getting to heaven. It is the only way.

I know that Liberty University is mentioned as LS here, but it brings in different teachers and students from different beliefs–and some who are truly grace and faith alone.
I just recorded the most moving Chris Tomlin concert where he sang of nothing but God amazing free grace, mercy, and being set free in joy thanks to Christ.

Curtis – I do agree with you, some may most definitely be the weaker brother, and we should always give that benefit of the doubt, it’s quite a blessing to see people come out of loadship teachings. I was reflecting on one who is actively accuse others from the pulpit. Those people are basically the ones I’m addressing, those out there actively preaching or teaching it and making people either go into bondage, or with their changed gospel deceive others.

It’s odd, like the sermon John shared by Tom Cucuzza yesterday. They are so much like the Judaizers of old.

“THEY are the very ones that set out to create doubt, and unsettle minds, shipwreck faith, lead people astray. Deceiving and being deceived, mini accusers of the brethren.”

I have not thought about it this way. the gospel is an offence to the religious to those who do not obey the gospel. they think it is to easy to just simply relive. I also may count them as the weaker brother doctrinaly still seeking truth in the light of the truth shining back at them.
Those closest tot he truth of the Gospel and not see the truth are the hardest to reach

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The them that belive not Gospel is an offence to
a rock of offence
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

I knew he was Calvinist, but he wasn’t blatant a few years ago, the statement was obviously in your face out there, so he’s no longer covert as many are.

They never simply go over God’s testimony of His Son and tell the person if they have believed they can KNOW (the Lord knows and they know whether they believe it).

But more proof that they are not lining up with the Word, instead of telling people THAT is how they can know, THEY are the very ones that set out to create doubt, and unsettle minds, shipwreck faith, lead people astray. Deceiving and being deceived, mini accusers of the brethren.

From Village Church’s website on their featured series on the book of James:

“James is clear that salvation doesn’t come from good works but that true faith produces good works. We’ll always fall short, but that’s OK, because righteousness and perfection have been given to us in Christ.”

My comment: How many good works, and what kind of good works does “true faith” produce?

How will someone know when his good works prove that he has true faith?

If we don’t produce good works, does that mean we haven’t received Christ’s righteousness?

Do I have to have good works to prove that I have received Christ’s righteousness?

If I’m not producing good works, should I start doing them to prove that I have true faith?

Or, if I’m not producing good works, should I try believing in Jesus again, and wait to see if it works this time?

If I’m producing good works, should I assume that I’ll continue to? What if I stop producing good works? Was I simply deceiving myself that I had eternal life?

holly and john, what you say also reminds me of my ex IFCA Bible church. We would sing hymns like “Calvary Covers It all” and “Nothing but the blood of Jesus”, But then they also sang, “Victory in Jesus” which says, “and I repented of my sins and won the victory.” I think they leaned more towards the last one from my experience.

Holly, this reminds me of hearing a young man on a street corner singing “Nothing But the Blood of Jesus,” while his colleague was passing out tracts that said to forsake all your known sin in order to be saved.

Also want to add Kerrigan Skelly. Big load-shipper/Arminian. Pinpoint gospel tracts, he also has multiple sites and debates others. My friend just saw his group out ‘street preaching’ in the fair this weekend, I think we’ll write an article regarding it, she approached them and asked about their STOP SINNING.

Here was one of their ‘good news’ signs.

REPENT
Turn to Jesus or
BURN (huge fiery letters)
One way to forgiveness of sins and a restored relationship with Christ.
Make a U-turn in your life, FORSAKE YOUR SINS & follow Jesus.

Spiritual Research Network – names tied to it, Sandy Simpson (deception in the church ministry) Jacob Prasch – Arminian – Moriel, John MacArthur, Chris Lawson (Calvary Chapel), and on their ‘five basic doctrines of Christianity’ you will find their loadship doctrine spelled out.

Here are some new ones for you maybe…Sandy Simpson says this is the ‘order of salvation’

1.”… Since our sin separates us from God, we must first repent of our sin. Repentance means not only feeling sorry for our sin, but also humbling ourselves before God and then turning from our sin.”
2.”Then we must confess all our sins to God and ask Him to forgive them. Only God can forgive sins against Him.”
3. ” Next we need to have faith. Faith is believing that God hears my prayer and forgives all my sins; that when I ask Jesus to come into my life as Lord and Savior, that He does; that when God says He will make me His child, He really does.”
4. ” We need to turn our whole lives over to Christ, making a complete commitment to Him and asking Him to be our Lord and Savior.
>>>At the same time, we need to renounce any connection from the past with evil spirits, magic, and witchcraft, claiming the cleansing and protecting power of Jesus’ blood.”

Curtis, I know what you mean, seams like no matter what, Satan is going to have a hey day, so I get I just typically stick with something like, “I am a Christian, a believer who knows His grace is free, and am so appreciative”.

Johninnc — I agree. And I think he’s a good mini-accuser of the brethren. He also mars the name of those who teach the grace of God is free, by feigning to be one of the same type preachers, he draws in those who are looking for truth… Praying for those he deceives.

More on “pastor” Steven L. Anderson from “Faithful Word Baptist Church”. He is the guy who call those who believe in a pre-trib rapture ‘heretics’. Same guy who called for his congregation to pray for the death of Obama.

Worse? He proclaims to be ‘free grace’, one of the biggest blights on the name of Christ.

According to a recent article, he often preaches about the evil of the Jews. Calls them children of the Devil, antichrists, bigots, completely anti-semitic.

He is co-producing the film March­ing to Zion with Paul Wit­ten­berger, a conspiracy-oriented film­maker from Los Angeles, and the ADL says the film will cover ‘scriptural evidence’ that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people. He will also include Texe Marrs (Texas pastor), also an anti-semite and conspiracy theorist.

In addition to “confess and repent your sins”, the Jesus film invitation included the concept that salvation was allowing Jesus to change one’s life. This makes salvation seem like a process, rather than an instant and immediate possession of a believer in Christ as Savior.

Johninnc – since Jesus Film Project boasts of being the most widely viewed movie in the whole world, originally distributed by Warner brothers, and their gospel is definitely tainted with ‘confess and repent of your sins’, (along with a bunch of other things not found in the gospel), thought you might like to add them.

These fantastic testimonies have to include the clear gospel, and that’s the problem with a lot of them, is that they don’t quite glorify God so much, but the man/woman who pulled themselves up out of the mire by giving their life to God and working it.

We need to believe on Him to save us, realizing He is the only way to the Father, the only way to be forgiven of all our sins, the only way to heaven. Jesus died on the cross for our sins (He did it, He laid His life down willingly), He was buried and rose again in three days (He took His life back up as He said He would in John 10, and as the Scriptures foretold, proving He is God). And it was witnessed by many. That is the gospel that Paul declared they BELIEVED… And because of that, they received, were saved by and stood in that same gospel, just as the apostles all preached it (1 Cor 15).

God bless you Serena, and keep being a good Berean (Acts 17:11; 1 Thess 5:21; 1 John 4:1-4). In Him, Holly

giveing your life to God is impossible… because you dont have a life to give..
giving God reguard moment by moment is the hard part.
also Jesus came to give us life so how do you surender what Jesus is trying to give ?
we yeild ourselves to Jesus so that He lives His life through us ..
the world system of religion has it upside down and backwards.
the key to the horizonal walk of faith is in the verticle relatioship.

I am not familiar with Jaeson Ma, but perhaps some of our readers will be.

I read his testimony, “Redemption of a Wild Child”, and could not find a clear testimony. I am a little troubled by his references to “receiving a calling from God in his dreams” and to “prophetic utterances.”

Following are excerpts (from “The 700 Club” website):

Jaeson got his heart right with god.

“I say, ‘Mom, even if I go to jail, I’m gonna turn my life back to God right now. I’m gonna get my life right. I’m gonna do what God wants me to do even if it means I gotta face the consequence of what I’ve done wrong.’ Right then and there I repented. I just said, ‘God, I’m sorry. Mom, I’m sorry. I’m gonna turn myself into the police.’”

Not only did Jaeson turn himself in that day, he also came clean of all his wrongdoing. He loaded up trash bags with all the suits he had left and took them to the police.

Over the next six months, after several court appearances, the judge was amazed at his honesty and evident change of heart. Jaeson was set free.

As a free man he was determined to seek and know God.

“I just kept on saying, ‘God, Hebrews 11:6 says that You’re a rewarder of those who diligently seek You. God, I’m gonna seek You until I find You — until I get You, until I capture Your presence and Your heart in my life.” And I did. I was 19 years old.

And, here are excerpts from his Facebook page:

At the age of 16, Jaeson experienced a radical encounter with God, which directed his path towards building a “Hip Hop Church” a year later. With his spirituality maturing and his undeniable talent with music, Jaeson began working in the Bay Area as MC Hammer’s right hand man in media, film, and music production. After gaining a few years of experience with one of Hip Hop’s legends, Jaeson felt a clear call to surrender his dreams in the entertainment industry to follow a path towards and become a pastor.

Jaeson pursued his mission with genuine fervor, starting by building churches on University campuses. Presently he has planted over 200 churches worldwide. Jaeson ventured passed the comforts of the U.S. and began traveling to every corner of the world, preaching to and inspiring thousands with a message of hope and passion for Jesus. After building a strong foundation for his ministry, Jaeson again received a calling from God in his dreams. This time he was summoned to reach out to the entertainment industry as a messenger of the gospel. With his great oratory skills and keen sense of connection to people, the recording booth would become his new pulpit and his music would serve as a new vehicle for preaching the truth.

Jaeson’s music has been inspired by an eclectic variety of inspirations, but there is no genre that can particularly define the sound and message of his music. His music is a mixture of spoken word, preaching on beats, and prophetic utterances of a melodic tune. Most of his lyrics are inspired through his spirituality and there is nothing that compares to its power in today’s popular music.

As an artist, Jaeson Ma’s passion has always been to craft music that is inspired from the heart. He grew up in the Bay Area, CA listening to all genres of music, specifically hip hop, rock and gospel. Some of his musical influences have been Run DMC, Will Smith, MC Hammer, 2Pac, Nas, Notorious B.I.G., Wu Tang Clan, Hieroglyphics, Living Legends, Pharcyde, U2, Nirvana, Lifehouse, Switchfoot, Coldplay, Delirious, Jason Upton, P.O.D., KRS-One, and many others.

Jaeson currently resides in Hollywood, CA where he pursues his passions of knowing God and living life everyday with divine joy. His mission in life is “to know love and make love known.” His journey is just beginning and his hope is that his music will bring heaven closer to Earth, and his words will help hearts be awakened to truth and love. His favorite quote is – “If you don’t have a passion worthy dying for, you have nothing worth living for”.

Don’t waste your life, but live for a purpose that is bigger than yourself. -Jaeson Ma

I guy at our church got into reformed theology and he nearly destroyed the church. Thankfully the pastor saw the light and the danger and now the guy is gone. He couldn’t handle dealing with people who disagreed with him.

Sometimes if you have changed from your original template, and the other page was made on that, I have the same issue. What I do sometimes is copy paste into an email and then change it to ‘plain text’ and then copy back into the page. You can also make a duplicate page somewhere, and maybe delete the old one once you got it fixed?

John, there are pages and posts. Likely wiki index is a page. It took me awhile to figure out out to edit my static pages, but usually by roaming your mouse over to the left top drop down menu (when you are on the actual page), the drop down menu should have an edit. But you may already know these things.

Some one just recently recommended Dallas Willard to me, I see that his name is on the list but I don’t know why. Is there any specific issues concerning him that should cause me to stay away from his teaching? I did see that he passed away in 2013.

JR – Eric Ludy is a more polished Paul Washer and Tim Conway cross in my humble estimation. He appeals to those who desire to grow in their walk, but like all the back door and top loading load-shippers, he chokes people with the bondage he has placed them back under. They never seem to point them to the Lord or His Word.

Jesus gave us a couple commandments and they’re all about loving Him and others. If we love God, we are more able to love others as ourselves, but when we are in bondage, it’s not as easy to love in fear. Doesn’t perfect love cast out all fear? I see so many in bondage, and feel so sorry, and these teachers sell new books the next time so that they will ‘really’ be disciples…

John, In my previous comments at this thread i did “expose” Eric Ludy as teaching that since Jesus shed His blood for us we must surrender our life completely to be saved.

Now, given his usage of the phrase “You’ve submitted your life to him” and how he preaches his “gospel” , I assumed that he means that they have done that (giving their life to Christ) to be saved.

Since i only saw this quoted on Facebook, i am not sure of the real context and motivation behind it, and doesn’t submitting your life to Christ involves obedience (definitely not “limited obedience”)?

“You’ve submitted your life to him” – isn’t this the notion that Ludy is challenging? Isn’t this what he is admonishing the reader to do? If so, why would he say that you have already done that?

“SO who are you to give your life to JESUS CHRIST and then define the terms of how HE will use your life?” – We aren’t saved by giving our lives to JESUS CHRIST. We were saved by JESUS CHRIST giving His life for us. Again,Ludy is challenging the reader to do something that he says the reader has already done.

“Do you have a limit to your obedience?
It’s like, i will follow GOD to this point,
But…anything beyond to this point is extreme.
Who came up with that?
Doesn’t GOD own you?
Don’t you realize that HE purchased your body?
You BELONG to JESUS CHRIST..
You’ve submitted your life to HIM;
HE can do with you what HE wishes..SO who are you to give your life to JESUS CHRIST and then define the terms of how HE will use your life?
DO YOU HAVE A LIMIT TO YOUR OBEDIENCE?…(ERIC LUDY”

Of course i want to obey Christ, but i do so out of gratitude for His grace to me , for saving me , for accepting me as a son, not simply because he’s the boss and i can’t do anything about it. Your thoughts?

Dealing with errant doctrine is something we are told to do. The whole church is beseeched regarding marking and avoiding it (Rom 16:17-18).

Franklin and Billy both seem to have no problem with Catholics and even priests opening up in prayer. As we know, Billy made agreements with false and apostate churches, including even sending Jews back to their temples… for what? Instruction in how Jesus is a false God? Or to Roman Catholics so they can learn what they must do all their lives in order to spend less time in purgatory? John MacArthur’s ‘gospel according to Jesus’…. that’s a lie in the first sentence.

But, he sells books and lots of his people idolize John too. So, it’s like brick walls sometimes. I’ve taken that tactic too, by using Anonymous says, you must do this, and that, and that to be saved. People weren’t real pleased when I revealed ‘anonymous’….

Holly, I am sure you did the right thing. I have never had anyone that I talked to outright agree that there is a problem with Billy Graham’s doctrine.

If I were to show Billy Graham’s quotes that distort the gospel to discerning people, without attributing the quotes to Billy Graham, I think I would get different responses. In other words, people associate Billy Graham with the gospel, so they cannot clearly process information to the contrary.

Most people make excuses for what he must really mean. For example, I showed Billy Graham’s quotes from our recent article to a couple of different people.

The first said something like: When he says “count the cost”, he probably means that all Christians will be persecuted.

The second said something like: He could mean by “count the cost” that there was a cost to Jesus.

One of our friends from ExPreacherMan wrote and told me that someone with whom he shared one of our recent articles told him the following: We must be careful b/c your not just speaking against them (Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Ryrie) but you could be speaking against what the Holy Spirit has done thru them. That is scary position to take.

My comments regarding each of the above:

First, Billy Graham has been anything but persecuted. Second, “count the cost” clearly refers to discipleship, not the cost to Jesus. Third, making an insinuation that criticizing men’s teaching “could be speaking against what the Holy Spirit has done thru them” is preposterous. This is nothing other than trying to cow us from taking a stand for the gospel out of fear that we might inadvertently commit the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

In addition to Billy Graham’s direct assaults on the gospel, there is also peripheral evidence of his organization’s association with Lordship “salvation.” Most notable is the fact that the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association released an updated version of John MacArthur’s “The Gospel According to Jesus” in 2008. The introductory tribute to the book and it’s author was written by Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham.

Johninnc, I relate to the steadfast part 🙂 In a Bible study several years back, there were a lot of older people than I who attended. I believe, likely I was the youngest in the group. I can’t think of but one who may have been near my age. I had friends in from town, and they both went with me, that night was a Q & A, and one man brought up Billy Graham. Not his gospel, but his association with Masons and other things, and one of my friends said something, and the next I knew someone from across the room asked me what I thought and I told them, I didn’t go so much for what might be true or might not, but I looked at the gospel, and the Lord knew the other things whether they were true or not, but I could see his gospel was not good.

I got a call that many wouldn’t be attending anymore because of me if I ever spoke out again. But, what do you do? I answered the question and I’d do it again.

Phil R., I know what you mean about throwing it back on the man, vs.the gospel, and boy have I seen that in just talking about error of men, Rick Warren comes to mind, and the pastor who was defending to me, a close friend he said, was mad, and said because of him, thousands or more were saved. I caught him on that and said, “because of him”?

But it is what people think and they forget if they were saved there, it was because they heard certain things and believed those. I am just thankful, so thankful to God, to His Word, to faith teachers and defenders of His gospel, and other brethren to fellowship with.

Phil, we are very focused on keeping the gospel clear at ExPreacherMan. While we welcome honest questions, and even dissent, we will always provide proper, Biblical truth in response. And, we don’t go on and on with people who are not open to the truth. We will never give false doctrine the last word.

Perhaps the following excerpts from Tom Cucuzza’s sermon “It’s All of Christ” best reflect our philosophy. See excerpts below:

Minutes 3:35-3:52

We must protect the gospel. Now, what is the gospel? It’s the good news that God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die on the cross to pay for all of our sins and that He came back from the dead to prove it was done, and that all who would simply put their faith in Christ and Christ alone receive eternal life.
Minutes 4:07-4:35

Now, if there is only one plan of salvation, which the Bible says that is true, if there is only one gospel, which the Bible says that is true, then the truth needs to be protected.

We cannot give false teachers a place – and you’ll notice what he said – not even for an hour. Now, that’s not being mean-spirited, that’s just standing our ground. That’s having the courage to say: “Excuse me, not here. That message is not welcome here.”

Minutes 4:49-5:34
There are those who are saved and yet are confused about this issue. And they are -many times – just because they haven’t learned, they haven’t been taught better – they are saying things that aren’t true, but it hasn’t occurred to them that what they are saying is not true. What do we do with them? We teach them. We kindly teach them. We take them alongside and we show them the way of God more perfectly. Alright? There is that ministry. Every man is a ministry. We need to see that.

However, there are those, though, who are fixed on preaching error and teaching error. And when they are approached with the truth – and we try to make that clear – they say: “That’s not true! I don’t believe that. I believe you’re the one who’s teaching falsehood.”

Hi, I would like to say that from what I have seen with this site and forum, ExPreacherman is unique and is truly an oasis and refuge of God’s grace!
I have searched for other grace alone forums on the net and the best I could find were forums with threads that would have a mix of beliefs; some posters were grace alone like us, but others would bring in the need for discipleship, commitment, turning from sins, changed living…….. It sadly seems that the majority of those who profess Christianity are sold on “faith+works=salvation” in one form or another.
And although I attend a church that so far appears to be grace alone, I may never become a member of another church because of bad experiences in two past churches.

holly, this kind of reminds me of another who seems to want turn salvation from Christ and throw it back on people, namely Billy Graham. I remember him waving his Bible around while preaching at crusades and quoting Romans 3 and saying, the Bible says, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23) But I don’t recall him then quoting the next verse 24 and telling us “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”
I think I remember him also saying, “The wages of sin is death”, but I don’t remember him also saying “but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23) I wonder why he just emphasized the sin parts? Maybe he thinks that the wages of repenting of sin and righteous living are eternal life.

Phil, Dave H. either compromised or didn’t have time to research everything as he often called them our Calvinist brethren — that’s an assumption I’d rather not make for people preaching another gospel (see his video on ‘What love is this’).

Luther’s grace was an infused grace, his faith – one that came to the elect alone as a gift. His sola scriptura included the Apocrypha. The glory of God is summed up in God performing all aspects of being saved, including our being born again before we are given the ability to believe. It’s really twisted, because what they say, and what they mean (the reformers) are two different things. I find all sorts of compromise with people who may understand the gospel, but don’t quite understand the problem with favorably quoting Luther and the other past and current reformed teachers/leaders.

I wasn’t sure where to put this, but it concerns the late David Hunt. I have read two of his books: How Close are We? and A Woman Rides the Beast. First off, I have nothing against DH. As far as I can tell he was a salvation by grace thru faith alone plus nothing else teacher.
But what confused me was his treatment of the Protestant Reformers particularly Luther and Calvin and the Protestant movement back then in his book A Woman Rides the Beast. In showing the unscriptural justification teachings of Catholicism (which seems to be the purpose of this book) Hunt emphasizes that the Reformers taught that we are justified by grace thru faith alone,period without works. I don’t know about Luther for sure, but Calvin certainly does add works: the works of perseverance. Did Hunt just loose sight of the fact that Calvin taught that a person who is saved by grace thru faith must follow thru with a life of perseverance?

1 Corinthians 4:6
“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”

I myself fell into the trap of just believing anything I heard from preachers/teachers in the past. That has now all changed and it was not an easy change. I had to rid myself of the “hero” mentality for those I thought could or would do no wrong. I don’t care how nice or authentic a person may seem. This also includes for me any close friends and even what I could conjure up in my own flesh in deceiving myself.

I have since repented of these things and now prove ALL things according to scripture. Not everything is always what it seems, especially when being transferred from the mouths of men or women. This even includes any Bible study helps produced by “Biblical Scholars.” I have been duped many times and I have learned the hard way. Believers should be taught to prove all things and not blindly accept everything that they hear outside of Holy Scripture.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

I even prove ALL things written here on this website!

Thankfully the Bereans were written about in Acts as a model for me.
Acts 17:11
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

Also, I know that the Word of God written in the Holy Bible is the absolute and only truth being completely accurate because Jesus Christ Himself personally chose each of the Apostles to convey His message of salvation. It starts with His Word and ends with His Word alone! I will not deviate from it from now on.

The simple message I see is………
John 11:25
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that BELIEVETH in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live”

Thanks for responding. You do know once something is in public, you do not need to contact the person, in fact we have a precedent set in Galatians 2, along with Romans 16:17-18, we are to mark and avoid them, and publicly. Error in public is to be dealt with in public. We are absolutely to take heed to the doctrine (1 Tim 4:16). Many who get some things right, when they are in error, need to correct their error publicly. So, if you want to contact Mr. Cloud, I’d be interested to see how he might respond. His doctrine is perfect, and we are to take heed to it. We are to mark and avoid any not lining up with it. I hope you will consider proving all things by God’s Word (1 Thess 5:21). Don’t think of any man beyond what is written (1 Cor 4:6).

Today I made an interesting observation about many folks who call themselves “Grace” teachers, evangelists and preachers.

Being on mailing lists (paper and email) of several “Grace” folks, I’ve noticed a disturbing trend — or maybe it is more like an established fact than a recent trend.

Each of these ministry newsletters detail their successful jaunts to places all over the world, or they build missionary boats on the Amazon, radio stations in South America, they dig water wells in Africa, they preach to the masses in India and most ask, in some way, for financial support.

All of this may be well and good — but the disturbing thing to me is that most newsletters have a total lack of EXCITEMENT for the Good News, the Gospel of our salvation in Jesus Christ.

The newsletter becomes perfunctory dry and lifeless report on business.

These teachers apparently assume everyone who reads their letter is already saved – they assume readers are doctrinally clear on Grace.

I believe many have lost their First Love. They have become too busy with the busy-ness of business so they forget the reason for their very existence — to share the Grace Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ alone.

Such a shame and a waste of an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ!!

Romans 1:16“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

Patrick, we would like to kindly address some of the points from your last (unpublished) comments.

We are not Calvinists. We reject all five tenets commonly associated with Calvinism.

We believe in:

Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. We believe that eternal life, not faith, is the gift of God. In other words, each person has a choice of whether or not to believe in Christ as Savior. Salvation is a gift to us, without cost or obligation.

Eternal security of the believer. Once a person exercises faith in Christ (a moment in time), he has eternal life that can never be lost or forfeited.

Assurance of eternal life for the believer. Since eternal life is a gift, one can know from the moment he first believes that he has eternal life. A person’s assurance can only come from God’s promise of eternal life and cannot be confirmed by life changes, good works, etc.

We would like to invite you to read the attached articles to provide you a good overview of our beliefs. These are short articles that are intended to clearly articulate what the gospel is, and in some cases, what the gospel isn’t.

I pray for you Pattrick that you stick around and learn from one another and be teachable .
below is a scripture passage to consider. I would also suggest reading the statement of faith at expreacherman and about us tab. most importantly The Gospel Link that you may know you have eternal life

God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Invite Mr Cloud here to expreacherman would love to see him here to chime in.
for the record from Mr Clouds website under salvation
to me this is classic back door and front door lordship salvation 101 , even though the gentleman says by grace through faith prior

He also resists people who make a cottage industry out of criticizing others too. David Cloud is basically the person who, due to his exhaustive research on the Pentecostal movement, caused me to leave it for good in 2004.

Instead of criticizing him, how about contacting him to clarify his stance on lordship salvation?

Curtis, that’s great advice. A lot of people are teaching/believing works for salvation either overtly, or implicitly, because they are passing along the doctrines of men as if they were from scripture.

it has been my experience that preachers or teachers and or believer people who are admittedly opposed to lordship salvation , Calvinism or any other ist ism or ite will still hold to some king of works as evidence of salvation.
got to study the Truth of the Gospel for yourself and Pray for the Truth of the Gospel and to continue in it to spot the error

We have discussed Cloud and do not recommend him. He may say that he does not believe in Lordship “salvation”, but all he has done is to change the definition. See links to our previous discussions, below:

Thanks for that accurate report. It is amazing that anyone buys into Joyce’s accursed message.

Like so many of her ilk, as you recognize, she is dangerous for many reasons. Because she is an attractive lady with a nice smile, a kind voice, a big budget advertising operation and — with Satan on her side, her message of “faith” plus, plus, plus, plus — seems to resonate with the uninformed folks who are looking for any hint from Joyce to find a way to prove or justify themselves worthy before God. Galatians 1:8 – She is accursed and her message is false.

Joyce Meyers, who draws whole arenas full of people looking for answers and who spend all that money buying her books, tonight heard her message of her “simple” plan of accepting Christ and “getting born again.”

Here what Joyce, in to many words, told her audience about being saved.

You must first truly repent of your sins, and then confess your sins and ask God for forgiveness of your sins and commit to lead a Spirit filled life, and accept Jesus into your heart.
She said that this accepting Christ is easy compared to sinning.

Curtis, I understand feeling the checks when people use certain terminology. Jesus is Lord, the word (as a title as pertaining to Jesus), means ‘God, the Messiah; (kyrios, some spell kurios). People certainly need to know He is God, not just a man, or they do not know the real Jesus. His name Jesus means Jehovah saves, or Jehovah is salvation.

What I think they forget, is He is Lord of all already. We don’t make Him Lord, we believe He is Lord, as do the demons, because it is truth. Demons however, do not have the offer of salvation, we do, so He is both our Lord and He is our Saviour.

Picture you are the manager of a plant, and a friend. I know your name, and know you very well, and I come in to have lunch with you, and I ask for Curtis Martinson (don’t know your last name, just going with the M). Some have a relationship with you there, some do not, you are still Manager. You have called me friend. I do not need to make you ‘Manager’ Curtis Martinson, you just are. (Probably a poor job of sharing how I see it).

Jesus IS my Lord, He IS my God, and He IS my Savior — most importantly, they can call Him and identify Him as Lord, but they haven’t believed upon Him as their Savior.

It angers me that these lordship (loadship) false teachers have knowingly or otherwise, denigrated His free gift, and elevated themselves by ‘making Him Lord’ and suggesting that it means we have totally submitted, completely surrendered, abandoned all, etc. This is a devilish work, and it renders many ineffective.

One of the biggest drains in my life is going down theological rabbit holes trying to answer questions about ministry x, y, or z, or scriptural references that draw a lot of doctrinal error.

In researching these things, I expose myself to lots of error – sometimes new twists, which Satan uses to try to attack me. I’ve been OD’ing on theology for the last few days.

Not only that, but sometimes, just introducing conversation about some “iffy” ministries into the mix at ExPreacherMan has had some disastrous outcomes. This has usually been in the form of losing some of our more vulnerable readers, who get led astray by the subtle deceit that has been introduced.

There are very few out there who don’t introduce serious doctrinal error that cuts right to the heart of the gospel.

These often come from the most scholarly of people who try to come up with new definitions for words that are at the heart of the gospel (repentance, faith, grace, etc.). Some introduce gospel-perverting error very subtly.

Some recent examples that I’ve seen (I’ll paraphrase):

People who truly understand grace will necessarily live less sinful lives.

My comment: Perseverance of the saints error.

Those who believe in free grace WILL respond out of love and gratitude.

My comment: Implies that works will, by necessity, follow faith in Christ. Perseverance of the saints error.

True repentance is a change of mind that will lead to a change of action.

My comment: Implies that works will, by necessity, follow faith in Christ. Perseverance of the saints error.

Good works are not necessary for assurance, but they can provide secondary affirmation, or corroboration of assurance.

My comment: Assurance doesn’t need secondary affirmation, or corroboration. If someone is looking for secondary affirmation, or corroboration, they are not looking to God’s promises. If someone’s assurance is bolstered by secondary affirmation, or corroboration, will their assurance be undermined when confidence in their good works starts to wane?

Our brother in Christ, (insert favorite LSer), is in error when he says that good works are necessary to get into heaven.

My comment: Equates faith in Christ with faith in Christ plus works. Presumption that people promoting faith plus works have eternal life suggests that there is a way to heaven other than by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

For me personally coming out of my own indoctrination I spent way to much time comparing what others had to say about The Gospel instead of studying The Gospel and owning it for myself . However I do know I can even deceive myself and need to continue to seek the Truth of the Gospel. So I have very little patience when I seek for another to produce the clarity of the Gospel .

LS declares for salvation for eternal life you must declare “Jesus as Lord and Savior” and or “Repent of sins” so when Mr George declares “he has came to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ” its the same as LS to me .
it should be Savoir first then Lord , to me it is the simplest of details were false doctrine starts .

I do know my way around the internet and am very obsessive to the point I need to back away for a time. Sadly I have found very very few places or teachers on the internet that promote The Clarity of the Gospel . Most of the time it is what they DO NOT say that gives them away.
The few places I have found that promote the clear gospel are on the blog roll here at expreacherman and apart from studying and owning the Gospel for your self, be very very careful out there , They desire to make merchandise of you !

they with feigned words make merchandise of you
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

A frequently asked question is, “Will some believers take the message of grace as a license to sin?” I answer it the same way: “If their understanding of the gospel goes no farther than the forgiveness of sins – probably yes. But when you understand that Christ not only died for the forgiveness of your sins, but also rose again to come and live in you – absolutely not!”

My comment: That would preclude anyone who understands that they have the life of Christ from using liberty as an occasion to the flesh. If this were “absolutely not” possible, I don’t think it would have been addressed it in the Epistles. Are we to assume that none of the people Paul addressed as “brethren” in the Epistles understood that Christ rose again to live in them?

Galatians 5:13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

And, Peter might not have felt led to mention it.

1 Peter 2:11: Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

And, James might have left it out.

James 4:1-3:
[1] From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
[2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
[3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

The problem I have with guys like Bob George, is they quote little gems that simply cannot be backed up by scripture.

Thanks john for your testimony, And I emphatically agree with you; we are saved by grace alone through faith alone and I think I too was moved to saving faith mostly by the promise of eternal life as God’s free gift to me.

Again, what troubles me about Bob George is that he sometimes seemed to separate the gospel and say that everyone is already forgiven, believer or not, by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. That we come to Christ for life, the resurrected life. That sounds fine, except the word of God says in Paul’s epistles that we are saved by believing the gospel which includes Christ’s death for our sins, his burial, and resurrection. Bob George seems to treat the cross and forgiveness as sort of a foregone conclusion and instead directing the believer to focus just on the resurrected life for salvation. Like I say, maybe I am just misunderstanding him?

Thanks — You have just posted about Bob George to Wiki Index as well as Hank Hannegraff — both having earned the negative comments.

I had intended to keep it up to date — but it was too difficult to manage and update plus there are just too many false teachers. Some of our other friends have entered their choices of bad apples. We try to verify and filter responses.

Hi Curtis, Simply because Bob George said he came to know “Christ as his Lord and Savior” doesn’t make someone LS. Didn’t Thomas exclaim “My Lord and My God” after seeing the risen Christ in the flesh?

Phil, I came to Christ because I wanted to go to heaven instead of hell. I had pretty much always known I was a sinner, that Jesus was the Son of God, and that he was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead.

But, it wasn’t until about four years ago that I understood and believed that eternal life was a gift, and I didn’t need to promise or produce anything in order to receive it.

Thanks john and Jack, I used to listen to Bob George’s show for a few years from about 2000 to 2006. He would take calls on his show. I even asked him a question or two on air on a couple of different occasions. He was very opposed to those who teach that the believer is somehow out of God’s love when he sins. One thing i liked is he very much spoke against the Calvinist, LS, position of the legalistic Hank Henegraaf the so called “Bible answer man.” In fact, Bob openly challenged Hank to a debate, but Hank either refused him or just ignored him.

I think if you look on line and google “People to People” you can listen to some archived past program hosted either by Bob George or one of his staff hosts. George had some health problems and is in his early 80’s and he there may be other like minded staff hosts doing the show for him.

Bob George was evangelical, dispensational, pre trib. and faith-grace only. I never heard him specifically mention LS, but he very much opposed Calvinism and all forms of legalism. He said that the underlying error of Calvinism was that they believed that Christ’s death surely was not meant to cover everyone; that it was only meant for some, the God’s elect, IOW, the false teaching of “limited atonement”. Bob George would regularly refute Calvinism with Galatians chaps.1 thru 3.

Bob’s salvation presentation seemed to present preconditions that concerned me like, you must see yourself a “lost” and humble yourself, things the Bible never requires. Now he may have just used these things to tug at the unbeliever’s heart. But what really concerned me is he would say something like, “we don’t come to Christ for forgiveness, that was already taken care of for everyone at the cross: we instead must come to him for life in order to receive salvation.”
For this reason I stopped listening to Bob George in 2006 for that and other reasons.

I am also surprised you don’t have Hank Henegraaf the “Bible Answer Man” on the Wiki Index. He is very much “soft” Calvinist, faith plus repent of sins to be saved. And I think I heard him praise JM. I used to listen to Hank sometimes on radio until I got so angry I had to turn the station.

I’ve heard Bob George on the radio. My recollection is that his ministry emphasis is on grace-based Christian living. In an article online, a quote was found from his book, Classical Christianity, which states that:
“A frequently asked question is, “Will some believers take the message of grace as a license to sin?” I answer it the same way: “If their understanding of the gospel goes no farther than the forgiveness of sins – probably yes. But when you understand that Christ not only died for the forgiveness of your sins, but also rose again to come and live in you – absolutely not!”” (page 175)

I checked Bob George and could not find a Statement of Faith but he has lots of audio lessons — which he sells. I could not find any way to to know what he believes without a purchase. There may be a place but I could not find it.

One might be wary if a preacher is indeed making merchandise of the Gospel.

I looked through the above index and I was wondering if anyone has heard Bob George and what they thought of his teachings. I used to listen to his radio program called “People to People” He used to hold “Grace conferences” several times a year in different parts of the US. He seemed pretty grace only. Bill Bright was kind of a mentor of his. But as I listened over time he seemed to be putting out the message that the cross has already taken away the sins of the world and that’s already taken care of for everyone, But he said it’s Christ’s resurrection that gives us life. It sounded like he was dividing the cross and resurrection in the gospel and focusing the believer primarily on the resurrection. Or maybe I misunderstood what he was saying. But here’s what I know the word of God says and the bedrock of our eternal salvation: We believe the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ-This IS our salvation, plus NOTHING else: it’s a done deal and it’s as good as we are already there in eternity.
Are you listening all you Calvinists and JM Lordship Salvation fans? Which is it going to be that makes a person eternally secure: “The Gospel according to Jesus” that JM insists on? Or the gospel that Paul calls “my gospel”, which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ that Paul insists is our salvation in 1 Cor 15?

John – that’s not a surprise with Jim Bakker. It’s a blatant attempt to scare the sheep and make money while he’s doing it. A real life example of those selling sacrifices in the Gentile court, and the moneychangers… See opportunity, make merchandise of God’s people, and those who are not… very tragic.

Something else to watch out for; that your church may invite to come to your church is a church mission/revival organization called “Life Action Ministries”. This legalistic LS church that I left had them come for about 5 or 6 nightly services. Wow! were they ever legalistic. They tried to get us to look up and find everyone we had ever offended, or were offended by in our lives and personally ask their forgiveness, or that we must personally tell them we forgive them even if it meant disrupting our lives and chasing all over the country trying to find these people. The speaker said, “that is the only way we can have a good conscience.”
Life Action Ministries was another reason I left that legalistic church.

I saw Dr. David Jeremiah in a TBN Telethon. I have never been sure where he stood on free grace? He got up and spoke urging viewers to respond to the TBN telethon to help spread the gospel around the world. Since when does TBN spread the gospel that is genuinely by grace alone through faith alone?

Gail Riplinger (the author of “New Age Bible versions”) I believe is one to be marked and avoided based on many of her teachings and false representations. Gail Riplinger’s gospel is on her website, which I did double duty on by sending you the link and I have screen shots as people are known to ‘quickly change’.

After using some verses, Riplinger’s site says,If you want to know how to go to heaven, simply read these verses(Rom 3:23, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9) and sincerely ‘pray the prayer’. And below: If you have prayed the prayer, Lord Jesus Christ be merciful to me a sinner. I do now receive you as my personal Lord and Savior. If you sincerely PRAYED the above PRAYER you are now born again.”

Jan – I usually hate to mention the KJVOnlyists cult as people get them mixed up with people who only use the King James or Authorized King James to preach or read. And it affects the Word of God. They claim that only the Authorized version is inspired and not the Greek and Hebrew, and that you ‘don’t even need the Greek or the Hebrew’. Well, no, we might not ‘need’ it if we didn’t have access to it, but that sounds suspect to make comments like that. With that, I am going to add someone.

Oh, and then I see I forgot to mention that Fred Carter, who draws many Chick tracts as well as the Crusader comics, has a weird habit of drawing some visibly open hands in a way that all fingers, except for the middle and ring fingers, are loose from each other.
That is a hand sign that began to pop up in some paintings and drawings from around the 15th century onward, pops up in most comics and cartoons (even japanese ones) and is seemingly associated with so called Marrano jews or the Jesuits.

I have some more info on Chick, he also believes that the KJV is perfect, thus is a staunch KJVOnlyist and has some deeper ties with the KJVOnlyist Peter Ruckman and with KJVOnlyist Gail Riplinger, who have ties with each other as well.

Another thing is that on page 20 of his Crusader Comic #5 Chaos, it is proposed that in the rapture of the church we might go through Orion, which is the supposed gate to heaven.
Thing is, this is nowhere taught in the bible and only occultists in the past, going all back to ancient Egypt and maybe further, proposed that Orion is a gateway to higher dimensions/the spirit world/heaven/etc. and Ellen G. White of the 7th Adventist Church had a vision involving Orion as a gateway to heaven.
Weird and very suspicious indeed.

Curtis M., thank you for taking a look at their website and for the encouragement. I probably should have done more searching before buying their products. I just refused to embrace LS to try to overcome an addiction.
Jack, so glad to hear that Yankee’s group does not use Curington’s books. That’s very good news!

Curtis, I agree that many popular programs may be harmful. For example, an LS addiction program would likely leave an unbeliever with short odds of a lasting recovery from addiction and may prevent them from understanding the gospel.

That said, I would prefer to keep our focus on Biblical issues, so that we don’t get over our heads in providing counseling for which we are not qualified.

on the Reformers Unanimous website if you click around on one of the links you are led to a LS gospel.

Jon Welcome , and good for you to do your home work

I myself made a personal promise I would not pick up any book or sit under a teacher/leader unless I am sure they are clear on the gospel. Also a lack of a gospel presentation on a website is usually LS more than not.

I have not searched every article on this website don’t know if moderators will allow this link.

(Moderator’s note: we would prefer to not publish the link)

One should be well aware of the spiritual manipulation that Could happen joining up with groups.

I was a chain smoker , heavy drinker , I am currently very overweight .
I thought I knew what addiction was . Until Doctor prescribed prescription drugs . I am free from them over 3 years now and my heart goes out to those who are caught up in an addiction some don’t even know it.

focus on who you are in Christ Jesus , Not that you are a sinner. That is a given. No such thing as reformation God deals with the New Man 2 cor 5:17

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

don’t let someone steal the power of Gods word from you by not fully expounding fully on the verse.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

“We don’t use any of his [Curington’s] books. When Jon died, Ben Burt took his place. I taught him the [Gospel] hand jesture which he now uses. He now teaches this to the national leaders. Contact him and see if he knows yankee”.

Thanks for sharing Jon, I think it’s why it’s harder to recommend the good teachers, vs. marking and avoiding the false teachings. One might be a good teacher, but still get into the trap of either not ‘proving all things’ (as we all have failed – me, multiple times), or worse, some feel like it’s no big deal to spit out the bones, they feel like something is good and helpful so they have deaf ears. Hopefully Pastor Scudder will not be, and I do also hope Yankee will be open to hearing. (I like that sermon from 1 John 3 too) 🙂

Preston, so glad to hear your story about Yankee’s sermon. My wife and I have watched a few of his sermons with our small Bible study group. We’ve all been encouraged by the Difficult Passages sermons. We are big fans of Yankee’s clear Grace teaching.

Jack, this is the quote on the back of the book by Scudder: “All Bible college students and pastors read Nevertheless I Live to help them as they work with the addicted. This book is essential to preparing our students for full-time ministry that will really count for the Lord.”
I don’t think the book is sold on their website but it is sold as part of a package for ‘Reformers Unanimous’, a group designed to help people with addictions. I ordered the kit several months ago thinking it would be Free Grace friendly, but was very discouraged when I read from that book. Yankee Arnold also has a link on his site for Reformers Unanimous on his site: http://www.calvaryoftampa.com/downloads/ReformersUnaimousFlier.pdf I don’t imagine Yankee is aware of the contents of the book.

Thanks John, I agree with your assessment of the quotes and that terrible heading. I got about 20 pages or so into the book and when reading that section red flags just went up for me and I couldn’t continue reading it.
On a positive note, I recently watched Yankee Arnold’s sermon on Difficult Passages-1John 3:9, and found it very helpful.

Jon, thanks for clarifying. I don’t know much about Scudder, but I’ve seen lots of otherwise sound teachers compromise their witnesses by endorsing, favorably quoting, or fraternizing with false teachers.

People seem to have a particularly tough time letting go of revered names like Spurgeon, Ryrie, and Billy Graham.

Thanks for your answer John. I was not suggesting that the verses themselves were LS but Curington’s interpretation as you said. He also goes on to say: “When we gain victory, we experience spiritual growth. That is how we can be sure the Truth (Jesus) is in us.” Again suggesting we look to ourselves for assurance of salvation. I find it a bit puzzling that this book is endorsed by Dr. James A. Scudder, who is supposed to be Free Grace if I’m not mistaken.

1 John is a not a test to determine if one has eternal life. The only “test” that determines whether or not one has eternal life is if he has believed on Jesus as his Savior.

You asked: Is this not LS/Calvinist? Am I missing something here?

My comment: The Bible passages are not LS/Calvinism. Steve Curginton’s interpretation of those passages as tests of eternal life is LS/Calvinism.

There is no assurance of salvation that can be based on how we are living our lives. This is subjective, and is based on our works. We are saved by grace, through faith. Not by works. Works have no place in how one determines whether or not he is saved.

I have a couple of quotes from Steve Curington’s book ‘Nevertheless I Live’ I would like to share. These are found in a section about “lies of society”, under the heading ‘Some Can Claim To Be Christian, But Yet Their Lifestyle Will Show Otherwise’.
“According to this verse(1John 2:4),if you say you know Jesus Christ, but yet you don’t obey his commandments, you are a liar and the truth(Jesus) is not in you.”
“If we never grow in our Christian life, or never experience any God-given victory over sin, or if we are unable or unwilling to obey Biblical commandments that especially deal with our wrong doings, it could be that the Truth is not in us!”
Is this not LS/Calvinist? Am I missing something here?

However, positive reports on ministries would have to be monitored daily to be sure they were still clearly hewing the line of — Salvation only By Grace, through Faith in Jesus Christ alone. We see cases where the “solid doctrine” folks are uncompromising today but slip tomorrow.

Then, one cursory glance at the compromising, downright awful doctrine taught from “religious” TV, radio and Internet offerings simply boggles the mind. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

Jack, it would take less work to do a reverse Wiki (those who don’t teach or promote false gospels – either directly, or by careless/callous references to others who do). But, we would have to update it frequently, because the temptation is to go along to get along.

David Jeremiah from Shadow Mountain Community church. Here is his gospel from his page.

Would you like to receive the gift of eternal life? Because this is is such an important manner, let’s clarify just what it involves.
Transfer your trust from what you have been doing to what Christ has done for you on the cross. Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. Repent and be willing to turn from anything that is not pleasing to Him (Hint that would be everything). He will reveal His will to you as you grow in your relationship with Him.

You can go to God in prayer right now where you are. You can receive His gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ right now (Romans 10:10,13).
Here’s a suggested prayer:
“Lord Jesus Christ, I know I am a sinner and do not deserve eternal life. I believe you died and rose from the grave to purchase a place in heaven for me. Lord Jesus, come into my life; take control of my life; forgive my sins and save me. I repent of my sins and now place my trust in You for my salvation. I accept the free gift of eternal life.”

Good observation. I thought surely I had included James Dobson and Focus on the Family (FoF) as false teachers. Many years ago I contacted FoF questioning their teaching and doctrine.

I was told that Dobson is a devout and faithful member of the Nazarene Church (works for salvation doctrine).

Seems like I discussed that with a commenter who disagreed with me.

There are lots of “Grace” churches who ignorantly use their teaching CDs on family life. That is a tragedy because, regardless of how “good” it may have, such encourages church members to investigate, invest in and study false teachings from the liars at FoF. Discernment is REALLY needed.

Today I found the following at their website under an article entitled “Don’t All Good People Go to Heaven?” (by Robert Vellarde)

We can’t work our way to heaven or claim to be without sin (1 John 1:8). Instead, we must humbly submit to God, turn from our wrong behavior, and turn to Christ for salvation.

The above statement is utterly and completely contradictory and unbiblical. Salvation is a gift. Turning from our wrong behavior is a work. The false gospel espoused by Focus on the Family will help consign the families of unbelievers to Hell.

He denies Lordship, and the initial statement of beliefs sounds o.k. on the gospel, until this part.

We believe that God commands that all men everywhere repent, not only of sin, but of every false way, turning from every false god, toward the only true God by faith in His glorious Son, Jesus Christ. We believe that there is salvation in no other, for there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved, than the Name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God (Acts 4:12).

My apologies 🙂 Whether he considers himself an ‘apologist’ regarding Lordship and Calvinism, he is basically teaching the same.

FyingPan9, No I am in agreement, I know Pinto is off, I just was mentioning about him denying Lordship and Calvinism. I’m just not sure about his presentation of the gospel, some deny the doctrine while teaching it. Let me go take a peek on the exact reason he is off. Some of my friends have warned me of him, but not exactly sure why, thought it was only his KJVO extremism.

Well, all I can tell you (from memory off the top of my head–just some thoughts here as well) is that when I went to Pinto’s web site he spoke a lot about “repenting of sin” and Jack’s impression that he was very “slick” and unmistakably LS, hence his inclusion of Pinto on this page. If he’s not LS I’m sure Jack and everyone who supports this blog would expect Mr. Pinto to be removed from the Wiki-Index, with a nice disclaimer and apology to follow. But your insights and feedback are helpful. All questions lead to the truth (or should).

I don’t think Pinto is Lordship as he actually has ‘debated’ James White over both things (which he denies believing). I believe he is KJV Extremism, or onlyist, which leads to another form of legalism, and certain groups which deny they are Lordship in that group are extremely legalistic and do judge their own conscience. Supposedly James White mocked him over being the KJVO cult as well as a conspiracy theorist, as he put it, something like, ‘seeing a Jesuit behind every bush’. Pinto allegedly came back and told him Calvin did the same thing and gave him examples.

But when people like Pinto are making money doing what they are doing, I think it’s very easy to compromise and do things to earn money, justifying it’s business vs. beliefs. Just some thoughts, not sure I am correct or not.

If anyone needs further evidence that Christian Pinto of Adullam Films fame is a LSer, consider the following:

Recently when I opened YouTube to watch a Hank Lindstrom video, there was a long documentary about exposing the ecumenical movement at the top of my recommendations. So against my better judgement I clicked on it. I’m not going to give its name for what are probably obvious reasons. Within the first couple of seconds I recognized Christian Pinto’s voice as the narrator. In less than a couple of minutes the film featured photos with voice over by John MacArthur, and then (GASP!) Paul Washer. Obviously I shut it at that point and will have nothing to do with it.

Need I say more? Seriously . . . Obviously I shut it at that point and will have nothing to do with it.

But it’s such a shame because a LOT of what folks like Pinto expose really NEEDS to be exposed. And so much of what some of these folks have to say is true. But “so much” of what’s in rat poison is nutritious . . .

You might like to add Henry M. Morris Jr., “Institute for Creation Research (ICR) commentator of “The Defender’s Study Bible” along with “The Revelation Record”. Anyways, here was a recent email a friend Kay shared with me regarding his teaching on election:

It’s right out of his daily devotional booklet or email called Days of Praise.

January 27, 2014 – by Henry MorrisHe Hath Chosen Us
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.” (Ephesians 1:4)

Although we cannot really understand how God could choose us (same Greek word as “elected”) before the creation of the world, we can rejoice in the fact and praise Him for “his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9). The preceding verse (Ephesians 1:3) testifies we have received “all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,” all “according to the good pleasure of his will” (v. 5), “according to the riches of his grace” (v. 7), and “according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself” (v. 9). It must thus all be “to the praise of the glory of his grace” (v. 6).

It is clear from this passage that God’s choice of us was not simply a matter of His foreseeing our choice of Him, but was a choice solely by His own will and grace: “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit” (John 15:16). This in no wise lessens our own responsibility to trust in Christ and to believe “the gospel of your salvation” (Ephesians 1:12-13), even though in our finite minds we cannot understand how to correlate these two concepts. Both are true, because both are taught in His Word, and both are occasions for rejoicing because they reflect both His love and His omnipotence.

God told Jeremiah: “Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee” (Jeremiah 31:3). Before the world began, God knew each of us and loved us, and prepared to die to save us from our sins and then to draw us to Himself. “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it” (Psalm 139:6). We can only thank and praise Him, and then seek earnestly to live fully for Him all our days. HMM”

JR – Excellent additions on Eric Ludy and Steve Lawson. I saw Ludy’s video awhile back, slick… and like you say, missing the gospel. I don’t know Lawson, but appreciate you watching out and letting the body know.

John… That MacArthurism “intellectual assent”, is a smoke screen they use to suggest we are only accepting historical facts vs. receiving the truth, believing upon Him as our Savior. Knowing what He has done for us. Are we to be guided by our feelings, emotions, and experiences, or are we to believe based on truth, using our minds? My feelings and emotions came after believing, as my knowledge and understanding of Him grew. The enormity of His love for me, and what He did for me. I cannot yet fully grasp it and won’t until that day, but each day, I am thankful for His love for me, and what He has done.

Glad you got out of that Bible study, truthfully John, I am so sickened by compromise of men/women who excuse their lack of standing firm for the truth for various reasons, but it’s not their truth to compromise.

Steve Lawson (from his video: It Will Cost You Everything) – Confuses Salvation with Discipleship:

“If you want to receive this gift it will cost you the total commitment of all that you are to the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many here who think they are saved, but are not; they have never really done business with God.”

“I want to single you out in the midst of this crowd. Have you taken up a cross in order to follow after Christ? Have you recognized your own sinfulness, acknowledged that God’s judgment is true, have you acknowledged Christ’s right to rule your life? Have you submitted to the Lordship of Christ? Have you really come to the end of self? Because Jesus does not begin until you end.”

“You need to make terms of peace with this king or you will be subjected in damnation forever. Christ has made terms of peace and you need to settle out-of-court with him. You do not want to go into that final day of conflict with Christ, for He will be ruthless in the execution of justice. He offers mercy today. He will agree to terms of peace and surrender, but they are His terms of peace, not ours. His terms are this: you must love Him more than anything. If you cannot do this, you will meet Him in the final judgment and glorify God in your destruction.”

Eric Ludy:

“Eric Ludy serves as the President of Ellerslie Mission Society. He is also the teaching pastor at the Church at Ellerslie and the lead instructor in the Ellerslie Leadership Training. Eric is a best-selling author of more than a dozen books and a highly respected voice in the Church today, especially on issues of Biblical sexuality, manhood, prayer, and the deeper Christian life. When asked about his denominational leanings, Eric very simply says, “Just stick Leonard Ravenhill, C.T. Studd, Hudson Taylor, Rees Howells, and Charles Spurgeon into a blender, and that’s pretty close to what I believe.” For the past sixteen years, Eric has been a popular speaker at colleges, conferences and events, and has been a guest on nearly every major Christian radio platform.”

SOURCE: Eric Ludy’s Official Bio Page

He has a video titled “The Gospel”, If one would watch the video, one would actually notice that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is not mentioned even once throughout the said 11:27 minute film. The film teaches that since Jesus shed His blood for us that we must surrender our life completely or not be saved. This is what they define as “THE GOSPEL.”

At 7:59 in the video, the viewer is asked “Will you allow Me to overtake your life?” The film says that this is the most important part of the gospel, saying that you must surrender your will, heart, mind and body to do the total and complete will of God.

Holly, I had the following exchange with a guy in a “Bible study” that I was briefly in a couple of years ago:

His comments:

“Last week we had a very good discussion about faith and works and the relationship between the two. I would like to start at the end of James 2 and pick up on that discussion again to make sure we have had an opportunity to fully discuss.

Consider: Faith without action is dead.
Genuine faith results in change in behavior
Works don’t determine faith, they demonstrate it.”

My response:

“If one were to agree with your second item for consideration (which I don’t) – that “genuine faith results in change in behavior”, what do you think the desired result of belief in that assertion would be?

1. Would it be for one to do more good works and change his behavior to prove (or corroborate) that he was saved (that is, work for salvation)?
2. Would it be for one to identify (judge) a fellow believer by his works and/or changed life?
3. Would it be for one to evaluate his faith based on his works?
4. If yes to any of the above, what quantification standards would you use? How many works? How much changed behavior?

This is a dead end.”

When I talked with this individual about the gospel, his response was:
“That’s just intellectual assent. You have to want to have a relationship with Jesus in order to be saved.”

I just got back from a 15 day mission trip to a 99% muslim country &
we were privileged to encourage believers on this same point:

I’m convinced the reason many look at believers’ lives & question their salvation is because their gospel is is something like this………

-1. APOLOGIZE SINCERELY for lack of performance in the past
-2. MAKE A PROMISE TO GOD that you will turn & follow Him wherever He goes (in the future)
-3. GIVE / DEDICATE /COMMIT your life/ heart /self to Him
-4. Coupled with DAILY REPENTANCE in order to remain clean for heaven
– So if your future actions don’t back that up, then you were not genuine/ insincere in your “commitment” / promise to God (“repentance”) and you don’t have salvation!
(What grace-less bondage!!!)

The muslims were enthralled with the message of pure grace, we told them the Bible is “dripping with grace” & that this gospel is the ONLY & the BEST divine offer they’d ever get and all they had to do was believe on Him. One guy received Christ and many got our contact info and had many many questions, inviting us back.
Free Grace is absurdly antithetical to the natural religious mind of man (Is55). Interestingly enough.. the thing they were most interested in was… “And after you believe….? Is that enough???”…. the VERY THING LS/ legalistic Christians are totally consumed with!
My reply…. Jn19.30 IT IS FINISHED – IT’S ENOUGH!!! Only believe!

Johninnc. I feel the same. When I actually come across those who question people’s salvation, I ask them point blank, “What is the remedy”?

“Is it accusation? Telling them they were never saved, and are going to be the one crying Lord, Lord?”

Isn’t the ONLY remedy the preaching of the gospel? When we see the response of those accusers is not to turn and preach the gospel, or to question whether someone believed the gospel, not question whether their behavior is up to par. For if they have believed and their behavior is not up to par, then what is the remedy?

Fryingpan, is it that little book, like maybe 40-50 pages and little in size? I think I have it too, but looking and my bookshelves in here and laughing about the needle in the haystack.

They question someone’s sincerity? Well, I suppose I have wondered, but what I do if I question it (quietly in myself hopefully) is run the gospel by them and make sure they have believed the gospel, for that is the only way to know. Drives me crazy to see the hyper-loadship people who say, “If you haven’t done THIS” or “if you never did THAT” you are probably a false convert.

I’d love to be there and say, tell me what you did to be saved… Because likely they’d talk about how they turned from their sin, and stopped sinning and made Him Lord of their life, giving their life to Him, committing themselves fully, abandoning themselves (etc.)

So sad, why don’t they stop, think and pray? Look into His Word carefully, combing it for the truth? Is their trust in Him, or their 150 books they’ve written? Are they secure because they are pastors? Authors? Or their proselytes? Or when they are alone, I wonder, are they afraid?

I would be if I had to rely on anything I had done… Or was doing… Or was going to do. Thank the Lord He forgave me for my future sins, paid for them. I don’t know what I might do in my future, how awful to live with that uncertainty. But, they are…

Fryingpan, interesting quote – “Well, I’d question someone’s sincerity at the time of their conversion if they were living in open rebellion towards God.”

This is classic Calvinist/LS dogma. If one questions the “sincerity at the time of their conversion”, based on someone’s behavior, it strongly implies that the person making that assessment believes in “turn from sin for salvation.” Otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense.

There are some other comments on this TBC thing on the other post about them promoting Ray Comfort (the one w/ the video of the trailer for GENIUS at the top of the thread) pertaining to this topic.

I shared one of Dave’s answers to a Q & A about LS on that thread and basically he was a big believer in the whole, “Well, I’d questions someone’s sincerity at the time of their conversion if they were living in open rebellion towards God.”

I fell for that confusing false believe for YEARS and never second guessed it for quite some time.

I have a copy of Dave’s THE NON-NEGOTIABLE GOSPEL somewhere in my house but that’s like saying I have needle somewhere in my haystack . . . But if I ever find it I’ll read it again and report back here on this blog just how clear Dave’s presentation of the gospel really is in that booklet.

Frying pan, I kind of caught that was what you were saying, but was just letting you know that I’m not really clear on what their gospel is truthfully, but that says a lot, and I’m glad to know that. If people don’t understand the clear gospel and are unable to elaborate on it, then wherever they are receiving their feeding from, they probably need to flee.

Abe, I remember when Berean Call did the Ray Comfort thing, I don’t remember if Dave was still active. I also remember the recent things about the Geneva Bible and Kirk Cameron. Ray Comfort associates with WOF heretic Joyce Meyer and sells books with her, so perhaps they feel a degree of cooperation is needed in order to sell their books? 😦

I heartily agree, associations matter, and when someone else doesn’t abide in the doctrine of Christ, we are not to ‘accept an invitation to the Vatican’ as Berean Call FB said Dave previously had said he would do in order to preach the gospel.

Yes, Dave Hunt is one of the people that confused me in the past. I’d hear what I thought was kind of a free grace Gospel, but then, he’d go and endorse someone openly hostile to the free grace Gospel.

Who we associate with, matters. It makes a difference. It ends up being an endorsement of wrong doctrine to the hungry soul that is seeking more Food. Dave Hunt said good things, but then led people to Ray Comfort, who is always preaching a false gospel.

Thanks, Holly. I guess all I was really trying to say is it might be fair to wonder if TBC has never really been as clear on the gospel as they could have been. Not as clear as Clear Gospel Campaign, anyway . . . to give one example.

Fryingpan… that must be heartbreaking, I honestly cannot speak from enough experience about their teaching. I have read parts of his books, and I have that book somewhere, I’ve seen video tapes, and had some issues with his capitulation about certain things back then. I don’t know how much error, but I sure pray the Lord will bring the error to light in these ministries, and that men of God will be held accountable to the truth because we all can be wrong, that is for sure. I shudder to think who I have recommended without ‘proving all things’….

Jan, I do it with trepidation in some respects. It’s hard to speak, I’m not really cut out for it 🙂 But on the other hand, I cannot stand seeing His truth compromised, and people misled. We need to watch out for the body and for others who don’t know Him yet.
Yes, the Berean Call had some good things that I sure appreciated too, and I thank the Lord for His truth. But compromise starts with posting errant authors and teachers favorably, which they’ve been doing for awhile sadly.

Holly, thank you for posting that, the brethren need to be warned that TBC onder the leadership of McMahon has become an entitiy to separate from.
Though TBC was already in a miry situation while Hunt was still alive.

1 Timothy 3:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

To some extent TBC was quite some blessing to me as well, I thank the Lord for that.

I haven’t really been prepared to “say all there is to say” about The Berean Call, but this is as appropriate a place as any to say what I’m about to say.

My intent here is to be thought provoking and rhetorical more than to make any kind of “statement.” It’s not some “final word” or anything like that. And it’s strictly based on my own experience so feel free to contextualize the obvious subjective nature of it . . .

I discovered The Berean Call in 1992, approximately 6 months after putting my faith in Jesus Christ for my salvation. I made this discovery after being led to Dave and Tom’s book, THE SEDUCTION OF CHRISTIANITY. I didn’t just read it. I read it several times. At least 6 if not 7 times over the next 5 years or so. I started subscribing to their newsletter in April or May of 1996 and ordered their entire back log of newsletters which I read through in a timely manner. I’ve read the vast majority of Dave and Tom’s books, sometimes more than once. I listened to many hours of their radio show, Search the Scriptures Daily. I own at least 11 hours of TBC-produced videos, and I once saw Dave speak live. When I discovered Youtube, I’d look for videos of Dave there as well and watched many of his lectures and even some old “lost” favorites.

Dave was by far my favorite writer/lecturer and I ate up a LOT of what he and TBC produced over a time period spanning around 18 and a half years.

But during the VAST majority of this time period I was totally misinformed and confused about the gospel.

What I’m getting at is that it might be fair to consider that, my own blindness and lack of understanding notwithstanding, perhaps TBC was a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution, at least in terms of not steering me away from the lies of Lordship “Salvation” (probation). I’ve documented several times on this blog how deeply mired I was in the confusion, frustration and despair that comes from this false doctrine.

Since discovering this blog I’ve long since unsubscribed from TBC newsletter (and many months later they still send it to me anyway). If it weren’t for this blog there’s a good chance I wouldn’t have unsubscribed or seen any problems with their ministry.

Just something to think about.

So I’m really not surprised that Holly finds it necessary to write the above mentioned blog entry.

I noticed another guy floating around Facebook that people seem to ‘love’. His name is Shane Idleman, don’t know if he is related to Kyle, maybe one of you will know. Idleman says, “”Have you repented from your sin, confessed Christ as Lord and Savior and embraced His perfect sacrifice? ”

I go to his site, and I guess the same Lordship message.
He says: “We believe that all people are sinners by nature and, therefore, are under condemnation; that God saves and regenerates based upon faith by the Holy Spirit, those who repent of their sins and confess Jesus Christ as Lord. (Acts 8:15-17; Ephesians 2:1-3 and 8-9; Romans 3:23 and 5:8; Titus 3:5).

FryingPan9, I know how you feel. The passing of Chuck Smith shouldn’t change the examination of beliefs, even if a person might perceive such examination as being bad timing in light of his passing. Even today someone was showing me how Chuck Smith’s view on salvation, funneled down to Greg Laurie, Bob Coy, Jon Courson, and Raul Ries, all guys that have influence, and all who believe LS and potential loss of salvation.

The other things they all have in common is, a very strong support for Billy Graham. Despite the fact that Graham directs people into catholicism, has made many semi-universalistic statements, and is very LS, yet Calvary Chapel bows at the altar of Graham very strong.

Thanks, Abe. That really helps put some things in perspective. I’d say a lot more but I’m hard pressed to know how to do so without just sounding like I’m bashing Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel in general, and the Calvary Chapel l broke away from earlier this year in particular. Can I help it if their founder recently died? I’m sorry for the unfortunate timing, and it might be seen as “poor form” by some, but the more I learn the more I look back and realize the error was much more serious and deeper than anything I’d previously imagined.

Didn’t at all know that Abe. I had heard the Mormon thing vaguely, but someone explained that he had said likened them to each of the 7 churches in Revelation would be saved, having been overcomers in true belief. I never listened to him, so didn’t know which was the case. I knew that I had other issues just from knowing his beginnings, and wondering why he hadn’t refuted them, so it was just an avoid situation for me. Didn’t realize in the beginning that he was behind blueletterbible either…

Holly, Chuck Smith always held those views. There are sites that post his sermons from many years ago, where he says that catholicism is Christian. And on a radio show from a year or two ago, he told a girl that some mormons will be in heaven.

Abe – wow, didn’t follow the Calvary Chapels much, so I did not know that about Chuck Smith and his gospel. I sadly saw at the end some of his very bad advice about certain things like marrying a Catholic or having an abortion, just didn’t know his background very well, except to know I never saw him refute his beginnings with Lonnie Frisbee that I could see.

Jack, don’t spend any time on searching out stuff before you email me, you have enough on your plate, and at least some of those guys, we have a group of people willing to do the work to research it if you would like. In His love to you.

FryingPan9, the Calvary Chapels might have the most difficult to discern and most undefined “salvation presentations” of all the churches. From Greg Laurie’s “don’t be almost a Christian and then almost miss heaven” to Bob Coy’s “knowing God”, all of the confusion in Calvary Chapels comes from their mentor, Chuck Smith, who taught them that salvation is based on abiding in Christ. If you cease to abide in Christ, then you are lost. How to abide, Chuck Smith never defined with any tangible, rubber-hits-the-road application, and it degenerates into works for salvation.

11/5/13 New Names added and published today — Mark Cahill, Eugene Peterson (The Message), David Wilkerson, Jim Wallis, David Reagan.

If I have missed someone or some organization, please drop a note to our “Email Us” link upper right column.

The Evangelical Free Church (EFCA) was suggested but I could not find anything but a weak, watered down Statement of Faith, (Bad enough) but we need more than that. Each EFCA church seems to “do their own thing” doctrinally.

It was at this blog (Expreacherman.com) where I first learned that Bob Coy is a LS teacher.

Jack, I will in-box you with information about Bob Coy and Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale, but because what I found is in video form only, it may prove problematic to archive any useful “evidence”.

That said, I’ll share what I found with everyone here:

I didn’t have to search out any blatant LS leanings on the CC Ft. L website before I found their “Knowing God” section of their website to be INCREDIBLY confusing. You click on the link for “Receiving Christ” and are “treated” to a video of Bob Coy explaining how one supposedly . . . well, I’m not going to say, “gets saved” or “becomes a Christian” because it’s all too vague and that’s never mentioned, at least not in the sense of how any discerning soul who frequents this blog would understand it.

I sat their in shock thinking, “Wow, this is SO bad” as I watched Bob Coy give a friendly introduction for viewers to recite (yet another totally unbiblical) “sinner’s prayer” and noticed that none of the following words were uttered even once:

GOSPEL
SALVATION
HEAVEN
HELL

The word “saved” was used before reciting the prayer, but only to describe how the viewer is now saved, not from hell, but from “all the stupidity that will naturally happen in your life if you don’t let God guide where you go.”

Bob Coy was my first introduction to Calvary Chapel, when I first noticed him on Christian TV around 2001 or so. He’s very influential and was a HUGE influence on the folks who founded the Calvary Chapel I left earlier this year. In other words, people need to be warned about him.

Not to confuse things with bringing up another “Dave” but now I’m less surprised (than I used to be) to (in retrospect) find aspects of Dave Hunt being a bit confused about certain aspects of the gospel. I’ve known Dave Hunt to favorably quote Dave Wilkerson at least 2 times, specifically in his video series based on his 1987 book BEYOND SEDUCTION.

Holly, the last part of Wilkerson’s quote is errant doctrine, fed by a subtle change to scripture. The subtle change is that people take the phrase “fruits meet for repentance” (from Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8 – “fruits worthy of repentance”) and change it to “fruits of repentance.”

In so doing, they change the meaning of scripture so that the so-called “fruits of repentance” are seen as synonymous with “fruits of the Spirit” and are viewed as a natural, organic – perhaps even automatic – result of someone repenting unto salvation.

We never see the phrase “fruits meet for the Spirit” in scripture. Nor do we see the phrase “fruits of repentance.” Anyone who shortens “fruits meet for repentance” or “fruits worthy of repentance” into “fruits of repentance” is changing scripture.

“Outside you appear clean and holy. But inside, you’re full of dead men’s bones! You’re a generation of vipers, snakes, with absolutely no fear of God. Yet you have no concept that you’re even sinners. I warn you — you must deal with your sin before you can believe on the savior and follow him. So, repent, turn from your sin — and live in a way that reflects genuine change!”

It would help expedite entering these false teachers if you (or anyone) know their web site (for these teachers) to which you could refer me — where they condemn themselves with their own false words.. Put it in an email to me at the “Email us” link under our picture up in the right sidebar.

That goes for any and all new entries — links help — As many of you know, we will not generally post links on ExP to false teachers.

I hadn’t thought of Dave Wilkerson. I’ve read his book, HAVE YOU FELT LIKE GIVING UP LATELY? a couple of times, but that was years ago, long before I found this blog. I didn’t know he taught a loss of salvation message. If it’s in that book I read I obviously wasn’t trained to be on the lookout for it back then.

The person who gave me that book gave me a bunch of other books, many of which were really wacky and turned out to be 7th Day Adventist and REALLY out there in terms of their point of view on things like last days events and the Anti-Christ. So I am not surprised Dave’s a candidate for the Wiki-Index.

We will pray for you and your separation decision — and likewise your Pastor to be convicted by the Word of God you spoke to him. He seems firmly set but confused in his teaching — but you have sowed the seeds of Biblical Truth and we can pray they will take root and bear the intended fruit, a Biblical message and a strong stand for the Truth of Grace. Thanks for doing so.

It would be great and encouraging to hear of more folks taking such a clear stand for God’s Gospel of free Grace.

Okay everyone, I said I will post on how my meeting went with my pastor. The meeting with my Pastor was this past Tuesday with some questions answered to my satisfaction and other questions…not so much. I made a clear salvation presentation of Grace and telling him that an unsaved person to “turn from your sins”, “commit your life”, or “surrender” are false. In which he agreed, also I expressed my deep concern that this past August our church had a men’s bible study of “Not a Fan” and how it mixed discipleship and salvation together and he also agreed with me as well. So I was somewhat surprised on how many points we on the same page…so that was the good

Now for the bad part, I don’t feel he sees the urgency of of keeping the pure gospel message preached at our church. We have pamphlets, tracks, and literature in our church that have a works salvation message. When I told him about this material he was unaware of it. Unfortunately I didn’t get the impression of he had any plans of removing theses items. The biggest issue I have is that he always use the phrase “you must make Jesus your Lord and Savior.” I told him by claiming that a lost person must make Jesus savior AND Lord implies commitment or surrendering as a requirement for salvation, but he didn’t see it that way he said that Jesus can’t be your Savior without being their Lord.

This was somewhat confusing based on the fact that he agreed on my salvation of by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. With this all said, I feel God is leading me to look elsewhere. This move will not be easy, my wife is the nursery director and assistant Sunday school teacher. For nine years we have poured ourselves into this Church, but thank God for sites like this that have helped me open my eyes to sound biblical doctrine. Pray that we can find a church that preaches the Free Grace message, not having much luck here in North Georgia.

Thanks Jim, there is a guy here in town who teaches newly married class. He lists it as graduating I “think” 12 years ago. An Elder at a church around the corner. Maybe I’ll email you. Was kind of vetting it for my daughter and her new husband. Thanks.

Northland Baptist Bible College, where I got my Biblical Counseling degree, is no longer a solid school in my estimation. They have since changed their name to Northland International University. They were fundamental Baptist. They have now gone toward a more new evangelical approach and students will more likely come out of there full fledged Calvinists than not. The free grace type voices that may have been there in the past have gone. Sad.

No they weren’t tied to Northland Bible Baptist Church. One is in Wisconsin and the other is in Minnesota. I wish there were more good schools out there for free grace minded students who don’t want the typical Calvinist brainwashing. I’m hoping places like Dayspring College do well

I have some post on it at my blog and Lou Martuneac has score of articles on it.

Bryan, I have been to a few pastors, and youth pastors, it’s never been easy and I have no idea if I made any difference at all, I am afraid they get caught up in compromise, and if they ever tried to stand up for the truth, they are overwhelmed by the numbers that stand against them.

Just as a thought. Agree to use only the old, reliable standard KJV Bible. If he mentions the phrase “repent of sins” to be or stay saved, kindly ask him to show you that exact phrase in scripture. It is not in the KJV — but in many of the newer false versions.

As has been said, stick with the Gospel of God’s Grace — IT is the power of God unto salvation.The Gospel: 1 Corinthians 15:3-5Why the Gospel: The Power of God; Romans 1:16What to do with the Gospel – Believe it; John 3:16Why we cannot mix Grace with perseverance and “repentance” works – they are not comparable; Romans 11:6

Bryan stick with the Gospel of John if he can not accept that one only needs to share the facts in the Gospel of John to any person who is an unbeliever then ask him why and also make sure he keeps verses in context if he insist in using verses out side of John. here are a few verses from John that may help John 20: 30,31 John 6: 28,29 John 6:47 if he says confession is needed John 12: 42,43

Bryan, I have prayed for you to speak to your pastor with courage, love, and humility. I have prayed that he will be receptive.

Bear in mind, that even if he was ever a believer, if he currently believes in perseverance of the saints or turning from sin for salvation, he does not currently believe the gospel. As you know, both of these beliefs contradict God’s gospel of grace.

Not meaning to change the subject but for those who remember several months back I gave my pastor a copy of Ray Stanford’s book Handbook of Personal Evangelism along with a letter stating my concerns of LS. Well I have been patient during this time, but never heard a response. So I finally took the next step and set up a meeting tomorrow (Tues 10/22). I don’t know how it will go, I can’t help to feel a little timid given the fact that he has decades of preaching under his belt and I’m just someone who just has a couple years of Sunday school teaching. But I feel strong in what God has revealed to me over the last year. I have deep respect for my Pastor, pray however that I will be confident, humble, and firm on the word of God. I believe the two biggest issues that will be discuss is that he believes that a true Christian will preserve to the end and the meaning of repentance, in which he has stated numerous times is to turn from sins.

You know Caryl had written a letter to Mike Gendron asking him about his Calvinistic teachings. But evidently Brenda doesn’t have a full understanding of what Lordship teaching is, and is butchering the gospel of grace in the process. I pray she will come to see…

Thanks for the terrible quotes from Cahill and Brenda Nickel.. two peas in a pod.

We have over 175 individual folks who are subscribers to ExP articles and posts. They may not all read WiKi or comment here, so I think I will endeavor to write an article exposing Nickel, Matrisciana (for accepting and supporting Nickel), Cahill and Berean Call (Tom McMahon) for once again promoting Lordship “salvation.” What a shame there are so few who stand for Truth and so many who cave to the masters of the dark side.

Nickel’s quote: “We need to get our terms straight. Repentance is a full turning to God by faith that is willing to turn from sin, albeit imperfectly. Lordship salvation insinuates a person can’t know they’re saved until they provide a lifetime of proof through obedience.”

My comment: Willingness to turn from sin, albeit imperfectly, is not a requirement for salvation. This is bi-lateral contract salvation all the way.

Nickel’s quote: “‘Free grace’ requires no repentance for salvation and in some cases, no concrete information about the gospel for salvation.”

My comment: Wrong. Free grace requires repentance – often, a change of mind FROM thinking that one must “turn from sin” or “be willing to turn from sin” for salvation. It also requires an understanding of the gospel.

I’ll send you the link, where Cahill is defended for his teaching of ‘turn from sin’ definition of repentance.

According to the Bible, which Mark Cahill takes his teachings from, repentance is surrender to God and turning from sin (here she uses portion of 1 Thess 1:6,9).

Repentance is a forsaking of sin to present the body, soul and spirit as a living sacrifice to Christ for the furtherance of His kingdom2 (Ro 12:1).

She continues: Mark is very serious about reading and obeying the Word, yet teaches salvation rests fully on the sacrifice of Jesus for sins, not the works of men (Eph 2:8-9). Trusting in the blood of Christ for salvation is quite different than trusting in works for salvation, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood” (Ro 3:25). Fully surrendering to God and turning away from sin doesn’t guarantee a person won’t sin, but reveals a deep desire not to sin and to be united with the Lord (2 Cor 5:9).

Those who willingly drop the sin in their hands to please God with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength show they want God to be their very life, (HAVE ANY OF YOU DONE THIS ALL THE WAY?)
(USES (Col 3:4).

SHE CONTINUES…Cahill preaches against sin, but never promotes a works/salvation gospel….

Mark Cahill’s defender, Brenda Nickels says this, “We need to get our terms straight. Repentance is a full turning to God by faith that is willing to turn from sin, albeit imperfectly. Lordship salvation insinuates a person can’t know they’re saved until they provide a lifetime of proof through obedience.
She demonstrates either her lack of understanding or just bears false witness here….“Free grace” requires no repentance for salvation and in some cases, no concrete information about the gospel for salvation. “

Thanks — Good try — but like so many LS folks — Cahill must not be willing to acknowledge his error. I notice that Cahill and Tom McMahon, (The Berean Call) have cooperated on radio broadcasts.

I could not find a link that quoted Cahill telling folks to “repent of their sins” to be saved. If you have a link handy please send it to me by the email link on the side-bar. We need it for our archives.

I did find that Cahill recommends a tract company which advertises that a person must “repent of their sins” to be saved. So he is certainly advocating a false message there.

I suppose you can add Mark Cahill, I follow him on Facebook and I he posted that salvation involves “repent of your sins”. Which I replied back with the true meanig of repentance that I copied and paste from Northland Bible Baptist Church. And 30 minutes later my post was erased. The biggest problem I have with him is that he seems to be at a point that he feels that he knows the Bible just fine and refuses to listen to anyone who questions his beliefs. Set in his ways I suppose.

There is a mega-church in Charlotte, NC called Forest Hills Church. It has several campuses and I know quite a few people who attend there. I have never been comfortable with it, because the people I know who are long-time members seemed confused about some things related to the gospel (such as “there is head faith and heart faith” and “a true Christian will always come back to God”). In addition, they use the ESV translation as their preferred Bible.

That said, I found the following at the church website:

From pastor David Chadwick’s blog of October 4, 2013:

“Why is this work of the Holy Spirit important? It’s because no one will ever come to faith in me unless they are convicted of their sin and eternal separation from my Father. No one will ever feel a need for a Savior unless they fall under the conviction that they are a gross sinner!

Is this you? Do you know you are a sinner in need of my saving grace? I pray so! When people realize their sin, they seek a Savior. They come to me. They confess their sins and I am faithful and just. I forgive them of all unrighteousness. I enter their hearts. They become my servants, wherever they may live around the globe.”

My comment: This is not how one becomes saved. One comes to Jesus by believing in Him for eternal life. It is not about confessing sin. Sometimes they become His servants, sometimes not. This has Calvinist overtones to it, in my opinion.

Also, I found the following under the “Intercede” section of their website:

“Pray for an opportunity to share “His Story” of love and sacrifice and “Your Story” of how Jesus has impacted Your life.”

My comment: This type of “testimony” implies that believing in Christ is “allowing Christ to change your life.”

Clear Gospel Campaign puts it this way:

“We note that nowhere in any of the five times that Paul gave his ‘testimony’ did he ever discuss how ‘Jesus Christ changed his life.’

In contrast to the testimony of Paul, we note that the predominant ‘testimony’ in the church today is that ‘Jesus Christ changed my life.’ We acknowledge that there are many truths of the Christian faith to which a believer can bear witness, including the deliverance from trials, temptations, sin and despair, and the deliverance unto hope, meaning, and purpose.

However, we believe that, when these matters become the focus of a ‘conversion’ testimony, such a testimony is misleading, and therefore counter productive in pointing men and women to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. It implies that salvation is allowing Jesus to change one’s life, with the consequence of observing a change. We believe that this teaches, by implication, the doctrines of Lordship salvation and justification by works, wherein justification is a process by which our lives are transformed. This is, by definition, the doctrine of Justification by works. We believe that such ‘testimonies’ have become a cancer on the church.”

You said: “It seems that you can preach against Calvinism and yet preach works.”

My comment: You are correct, without a doubt.

Anyone who believes in the Calvinist tenet of “perseverance of the saints” is teaching works. They are also Calvinists, without realizing it. They may believe that man has free will, but they think his free will stops once he becomes a believer. People who hold onto this perversion of the gospel seem to have no ready answer for why the Epistles were penned. These folks tend to be fruit inspectors (of themselves and others) to see if salvation really “took” or not. What they fail to understand is that God does not promise, unconditionally, to “make us good” in this life if we trust in Christ. He promises us eternal life.

Anyone who believes that one must “turn from his sins” or “submit to Christ’s Lordship” or “become a follower of Christ” in order to be saved is teaching works. This includes Billy Graham, the Southern Baptist Convention, etc.

Calvinists and Lordship “salvationists” are kindred spirits. Both groups pose as believers (meaning if they ever believed the gospel, they do not believe it now) and preach a counterfeit gospel. They are aided and abetted by believers who “just want somewhere to go to church” or who just can’t seem to come to grips with the fact that many, if not most, professing Christians – even evangelicals – are lost.

I don’t know anything about Justin Peters, but hanging out with Paul Washer is not a good thing, in my opinion. Perhaps some of our other contributors will be able to comment.

Thank you for info I have used David Clouds site often a lot of his writings are spot on example his articles on Calvinism Roman Catholicism and he is heavily criticized on his stance against CCM, It seems that you do not have to be a Calvinist or a Reformer to be influenced by LS. Not so long ago I listened to Adrian Rogers preaching on Calvinism his sermons entitled whosoever wills and predestined for hell absolutely not, refuted Calvinism then I listened to his sermon birthmarks of a believer and it was LS. It seems that you can preach against Calvinism and yet preach works. I would also like to know if you have any info on Justin Peters who has a DVD on signs and wonders movement he puts his point over well but lost points with me when I saw he had been one of the speakers with Paul Washer. One for your Wiki Index is the Irish Presbyterian Preacher Ian Paisley very popular with young Calvinists.

THANK YOU. That was great info and I cannot tell you how helpful that was. I suppose you will have a hard time recommending the church? A church that is characterized by a set of rules, and not led by the Holy Spirit, seems to be more common throughout the emergent churches. Everything is choreographed to maximize attendance, profit, you name it (timing/transition, dress, even interior building design). What a strange way to run the church by Jack Trieber when he is not fraught with false teaching!

what is interesting i was thinking today about the saying (that is sometimes in a sinners prayer) turn from sin and self. This really contradicts its self when looked at . what they(people who use turn from sin and self) are saying when they say this, is turn from sin and trying to do good works for salvation (self)
but when actually looked at turning from sin is work and involves self so actually when they are telling you to turn from self then they turn around and tell people to turn form sin which when doing that involves self does it not. a really confusing message (turn from sin and self)
i hope this makes sense i am a poor communicator in writing.

Trieber is a leading figure in the Independent Baptist Churches Movement. I find it ironic that they go by the moniker “Independent,” when, in reality, they are really very much run like a denomination. And they wear that title of “Independent Baptist” as a badge of honor. Trieber was the mentor of a pastor in my area, Paul Chappell, who pastors and oversees Lancaster Baptist Church and West Coast Baptist College. They don’t seem to support Lordship “salvation” teaching, but the local church in my area is pretty legalistic in operation, in my opinion—strict enforcement of King James only, unwritten dress code (suits, dresses), calling each other “brother this” or “sister that,” rebaptism required for any individuals not baptized within their system or other “approved” Baptist church, no mixing of sexes for any athletic activities or youth programs, mandatory attendance for all services—Sunday morning, evening, Wed. night—for participants in music program and other ministries, required verifiable service for all members (only members can participate in any kind of ministry roles)—could be driving bus, ringing doorbells on Saturdays, etc. As the college is not accredited by standard accreditation organizations, graduates of the college headed for pastoral roles probably have to stay within the “Independent” Baptist churches. One other thing that I heard recently was that, upon graduatation, students have to take a strong oath that they will never use any other translation of the Bible than the King James Version.

Thanks for exposing different dangerous false teachers. Any word about Jack Trieber from North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, CA? He founded Golden Gate Baptist College, which the church supports.

Chrissy, the problem I found with Cloud is that his message is most definitely Lordship “gospel” which is another “gospel”.

If Cloud recommends Taylor I would assume he preaches the same message so I’d stay away. Trouble is the majority of “discernment” sites are Calvinists, some under the guise of “Baptist” theology, some are Arminian but Lordship message still. We have to prove the Provers. Much deception out there…

Hope that helped but if you would like more info I will do that when I am home on Tuesday afternoon.

I am guessing Rogers was a sinners prayer person being that he was southern Baptist and the sinners prayer i am guessing (i have not seen all sinners prayers) always list turn from sin.
Also the person who took his place(bellevue baptist memphis tn) steve gaines believes a person can not be saved unless they say a prayer. i heard that on vimo with a person interviewing him he made that statement.

Hi please can you tell me if you have ever listened to David Cloud of way of life.org he also publishes O Timothy and the other person I am interested in is the late Adrian Rogers of the Love worth finding ministries thanks would appreciate your imput.

Here is one quote by Moore: To be liberated in Christ, we’ve got some sacrifices to make. Make sure He’s the one asking for it, but if He is, any sacrifice you make will be wholly consumed by Him as such a sweet sacrifice. He will bless. (“Breaking Free,” pg. 5)

Frying Pan9, regarding Beth Moore. A friend from one Bible study asked me to come to a conference to help take notes, to go to the elders as to ‘why’ this church should not have Beth Moore teaching. Beth Moore was on the contemplative “Be Still” video along with Piper and other mystical people, she also did the contemplative prayer recently with Giglio and Piper. She does do the ‘accepting Jesus into your heart” and at the end of her program, every single woman (except my friend and I) spoke “words of affirmation over each other” (repeating after Beth Moore of course). She also used the “Mess-Age” new age counterfeit bible to teach from. Southern Baptist, known as one of the biggest “Bible teachers”, her gospel message is called “watered down” by some, but not sure you could even call it that, just in error.

Sadly, she is a greatly likable woman, yet she should be marked and avoided.

Thank you for sharing John from cleargospel, and frying pan too, it is making me want to do a Children’s Bible story book more and more. Some people were over today with their children, they were helping me with some things around the house and yard and asked if they could bring their children. So they wanted me to tell them stories, and I told them about Zacchaeus and Lazarus, and Jesus (she said someone told her he had been dead 2000 years) so I straightened her out on that 🙂 – she was 7 years old. I was just thinking of how much error I have found over the years in “Children’s Bible story books” and my friend recently mentioned some error she found in one, and so I thought that I might attempt one smaller one, maybe like tract style. Also want to print my own gospel of John/Romans maybe with a good clear gospel insert in the back.

I have the idea for a great documentary but ideas are a dime a dozen. But if I met the right people and the circumstances felt right (and we were confident we could get the needed funding–at least to activate the launch sequence, so to speak) we could launch a film that’s more or less an AV equivalent to this blog. Maybe an entire series could emerge. Who knows?

I agree about how so many who seem to be in the Free Grace camp are nevertheless not clear on the gospel or at least adhere to or recommend ideas and resources contrary to what the collective opinion here at Expreacherman.com believe to be “getting it right.”

For example, I’ve stated on this blog in the past that I found one blog about Ray Comfort and the heresy of Lordship Salvation before discovering Expreacherman.com. But that other blog I found endorses Charles H. Spurgeon. So obviously one needs to be careful. (I’ve also stated in the past that I didn’t remember what that other site was, but I stumbled upon it last week but didn’t stick around–I was just curious to see how “alone” we all are out here in Cyberspace.)

I use Clear Gospel Campaign as well though you seem to have more experience navigating the site so I appreciate when you share their info here. It helps me cut through the clutter. But I will read all that you’ve shared above.

FryingPan, I wish there were too. Many of those who denounce LS seem to adhere to perseverance of the saints (“a true Christian will…”).

The best written explanation I have found that denounces LS in any form is in the Clear Gospel Ministries doctrinal statement. Please find lengthy excerpts and a link, below:

“d) Regarding the Denial of the Doctrine of Grace

We believe that the requirement of works to attain eternal life is incompatible with the belief that Salvation is a gift of God (John 4:10; Romans 4:4; 11:6; Galatians 2:21; 3:10-14; 5:1-4; Ephesians 2:8-9), including:

i) the belief that the performance of specific works or actions, such as circumcision, baptism in water, public confession of Christ, or speaking in tongues, is required in order to secure eternal life;

ii) the belief that a promise of future works of the law must be offered in exchange for God’s offer of eternal life, such as “repenting of one’s sins,” or “making Christ the Lord of one’s life;”

iii) the belief that obedience to God’s laws are necessary to maintain one’s salvation, and that salvation can therefore be lost through disobedience to the laws of God;

iv) the belief that one must persevere in good works and obedience to the Ten Commandments to confirm that they are saved, thereby requiring that works are ultimately necessary to secure salvation, and that the sure and final declaration of salvation is only offered in conjunction with the works of the law.

We believe that the aforementioned works-based doctrines contravene the very meaning of the word “grace,” insulting the gracious nature of God Himself as the giver of eternal life, thereby constituting a rejection of his offer of eternal life (Romans 11:6-7; Ephesians 2:8-9). We find no evidence of saving faith in a profession of faith tainted by any of these heresies.

We acknowledge that believers may fall into error or confusion regarding salvation and works after their conversion, as happened to the church of Galatia (Galatians 1:6-7. 3:1). We further acknowledge that the believers of Galatia were regarded as “brethren,” (Galatians 1:3), having fallen into this grievous error subsequent to their coming to an authentic faith in Christ (Galatians 3:1-3). We note, however, that the authors of this grievous error, who had never believed on Christ alone, having simply added Jesus Christ to a pre-existing confession of salvation by works (Acts 15:1) were regarded as “false brethren.” (Galatians 2:4). To this end, we affirm that a lost sinner must, at some time in his life, believe on Christ alone, apart from the works of the law, for his salvation, and that apart from such an authentic moment of saving faith, there is no hope of salvation.

We believe that the more ardently and regularly a pastor or teacher holds forth any of the above perversions of the gospel of grace as a necessity for salvation, the more firmly a pre-existing grid of salvation-by-works is fabricated in the hearts and minds of the congregants, progressively shackling the lost sinner more hopelessly behind a veil of deception, making it less and less likely that any forthcoming profession of faith has meaningfully grasped the message of salvation.”

Thank you for sharing that Abe – haven’t been ‘up’ on Laurie and should have been, as many people who are posting his crusade, and he evidently would like to be known as the next Billy Graham, albeit a little less conservative. I am going to share that info on FB if that is o.k. with you.

Yes, that was a pretty sad reality of what people were exposed to through Laurie. It’s nothing new for him. He also exposes people to contemplative meditation via David Crowder and Gungor, the latter being semi-universalist. The Bible means nothing to these people.

You know, the reason Greg Laurie came up in the first place, was a friend posted his new group for this year, NeedtoBreathe, and their cross dressing act on Conan O’Brien. I almost think that he likes these controversies, and seems no matter what he does, his fan base seems to approve…

Thank you all for sharing, I did forget about Driscoll and Billy Graham Abe. I have never followed Laurie, but truly, I’m skeptical about any one with a big following, because even if their doctrine started sound, to keep the numbers, I see them start to compromise in associations and then doctrine…

Yes, Greg Laurie who once taught a summary of 1 John that was so LS, I thought I was listening to Paul Washer. Laurie works with Mark Driscoll, Billy Graham, Rick Warren, and really anyone that will invite him to speak. He has been extreme LS for years, teaching that following Jesus by works throughout your life, is the only way to heaven.

I wish I had the exact quote but not long after learning here at this blog that Greg Laurie was LS (and admittedly still somewhat skeptical) I saw a clip of his show where he said, (and believe me, this is close enough for quotation marks) “If you don’t walk with Jesus on earth, you’re not going to walk with Him in heaven.”

GREG LAURIE where in
(“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).)
do you see
( turn away from our sins and turn to Him, accepting His Son, Jesus Christ, as our Savior and Lord.)

Since Greg Laurie seems to be very ecumenical, and does preach a ‘turn from sin’ message (along with kibbitzing with other ministries like Rick Warren, Billy Graham and Catholic priests) I thought you might like to see a direct quote (although praise God he included John 3:16 at least)…

GREG LAURIE SAYS:
The gospel is the message that God will give us pardon from our sins and eternal life with Him in heaven, if we will turn away from our sins and turn to Him, accepting His Son, Jesus Christ, as our Savior and Lord. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). This simple message is for all the world.

The false definition of repentance that you mentioned is one of Satan’s greatest tools in blinding people to the truth of the gospel.

By defining repentance as “turning from sin”, the Gospel is no longer being proclaimed, but is replaced by a false gospel of works. This is done by insinuating that eternal life is received as a trade, rather than as God’s gift through Jesus Christ.

Clear Gospel Campaign puts it this way:

“Most frequently, however, the phrase ‘repent of your sins’ is understood to mean that a lost sinner resolve (determine, internally promise, commit) to ‘turn from his sins’ in order to be saved from hell…

In this view, eternal salvation is not dependent on the performance of a work, but only the promise of future works. In the minds of those determined to adhere to salvation by works, this distinction supposedly allows the works of the law to be somehow added to the equation of salvation without annulling the doctrine of grace. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans would disagree. ‘For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is of none effect.'”

Thank you, John. I actually was thinking about the road to Rome connection when making that comment. It was on my mind mostly because I just this evening watched the documentary THE SIGNS AND WONDERS MOVEMENT EXPOSED and they mention the connection to Rome.

I think I refrained from adding that though because it wasn’t until I discovered this blog in February where I began to see the LS of the RCC is a “connecting factor” to so many protestant churches vis a vis their tendency towards LS as well. I used to see the Roman road connection re things like contemplative prayer and compromise over other doctrines, but now that you mention it, all of the LS of the SBC and others like it reminds me of “Mother Rome’s” desire for power and control.

Fryingpan, I really do believe it all goes back to Roman Catholicism and the Reformed/Calvinist tradition in Protestantism.

In the case of First Baptist Indian Trail, their association with the apostate Southern Baptist Convention is the tell-tale sign. So, as you said, “it really was only a matter of time.”

Following is a quote from Clear Gospel Campaign that explains the connection of Lordship “salvation” and Calvinism:

Bilateral contract salvation” and the “Perseverance of the Saints” are two separate but interrelated doctrines within a complex theological system of salvation by works, which relies, at its core, on redefining the word “grace” as some sort of mystical empowering substance. This theological system is set forth in Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, Part 1 of the Second Part, Questions 109-114, “Treatise of Grace,” a 12th century manifesto of Roman Catholic Theology. In Protestantism, it is known as “Reformed Theology” or “Calvinism.

I’m not going to be sanctimonious and say, “I hate to say it, but” because I know I don’t hate it when the truth is revealed. But considering what we’re dealing with here, johninnc, I’m glad you were able to expose the inevitable re Metrolina Christian Academy (and First Baptist Indian Trail by proxy). It really was only a matter of time.

Are we really to believe all of this “inability” to understand that the true meaning of the word “repent” comes from the Greek word to have a change of mind and not turning from something is all a coincidence? Mm . . . no. There HAS to be willful ignorance going on, in pockets if not across the board. The motive? Dare I say, “control?”

So many denominations are “in on” this seeming refusal to accept the truth about the English use of the word repent as it was poorly used to translate the Greek into English that I can only conclude that there IS some sort of conspiracy going on. At least on some level. Either that, or most churches are just so lame that they all copy one another. Or both.

I’m reminded of when as a child I started to outgrow watching Saturday morning cartoons. I noticed that not only were they all alike, but they were all terrible.

I did a little more research on First Baptist Indian Trail. They sponsor a school called “Metrolina Christian Academy.” The “Eternal Life” section on Metrolina Christian Academy’s website has the following:

Available

Forgiveness is available for all.

“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

But God’s forgiveness is not automatic.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven.”(Matthew 7:21)

Impossible

It is impossible for God to allow sin into heaven.
God is loving and just. His judgment is against sin.

“For judgment is without mercy.” (James 2:13)

Every person is a sinner.

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)

But how can a sinful person enter heaven, when God allows no sin?

Turn

Turn, or repent, from sin and self.

“But unless you repent, you will all perish.” (Luke 13:3)

Turn to Christ; trust Him only.

“If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

Checking the Southern Evangelical Seminary (SES) I see Richard Land is President — He is a Southern Baptist and was one of the head honchos at the SBC and I suspect still is — yet surprisingly, the SES statement of Faith has no repentance – turn from sin for salvation error. But Land has been there only 3-4 months since July 2013 — so that SoF could change any day now.

But to invite Ravi Zacharias to hold a conference under their auspices is telling. Zacharias was Anglican (American Episcopal) and praised false Word of Faith teacher Joyce Meyer as a “Great Bible teacher.”

I could not get to the SoF of the First Baptist, Indian Trail, NC, but I suspect it is an SBC church.

For them to be advertised on an ecumenical “Christian” radio station seems fitting – they all think alike..

I noticed today that the “National Conference on Christian Apologetics” Presented by Southern Evangelical Seminary & Ravi Zacharias International Ministries is taking place in my community this month (First Baptist Indian Trail, NC).

I didn’t recognize any of the names other than Zacharias. The event is being advertised on a local ecumenical Christian radio station in Charlotte.

There are so many faulty “bible” paraphrases, translations and transmogrifications (hundreds) that unless there is a big push by the religious community for one particular version (like the Calvinists have pushed for the ESV), maybe not.

However, we could have one category called “Bibles, faulty” and list as many as possible in one Wiki row. But that may be unfair unless we illustrate and itemize at least some of the errors. That would require a separate article, maybe several.

It was that they were amazed that I would speak against Jimmy Swaggart, they felt he was restored and a godly man. He has way more followers than I ever had an inkling. I on the other hand was shocked anyone I knew would defend him (even if it was FB).

I always felt it was pretty obvious what the problems were with him, but I’ve learned to never assume that, and always assume that you will get kickback if you touch people’s anointed.

Holly, could you elaborate on the context of your last comment? I’m a bit confused. Were they amazed because they assumed Swaggart’s seen by many to be irrelevant these days or because he’s considered untouchable in certain circles, none of the above, etc.?

John, I had a couple friends that were amazed that I dared say anything about this man… His ‘gospel’ is definitely way off, and I used to assume most knew, I had absolutely no idea the following this ‘ministry’ has, including the music and television network. Sure is a lot of self promotion regarding the preachers, Jimmy, Donnie and grandson Gabriel, Wife France’s top-rated television talk show, his music, and how many grammys (or whatever) he has been nominated for.

I don’t know….I sure like how you put it though… Well I don’t really like it, since it is so true what they are teaching, “I guess he thinks Jesus rents, not saves”…

Jimmy Swaggart is lordship of course, Arminian and teaches (as all AOG) that Baptism of the Holy Spirit is apart from being saved. Not sure how that doesn’t cause them conflict considering Rom 8:9 or 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 4:5-6. But they believe being born of the Spirit and being Baptized by Him are two different things and follows being saved sometime after. Of course they teach speaking in tongues is the initial evidence that you have been baptized by the Spirit.

Yep, CARM and Matt Slick. He and I tangled early on and was unmoved. Matt is a terrible, doctrinaire Calvinist and was recommended to me many years ago by a young (then) man, Greg, who trusted Christ at our church youth ministry. Greg attended Florida Bible College for one year then left to team up with a charismatic Presbyterian minister whose church is only about 3 miles from my home. Greg was sent to a Calvinist seminary, came back to be pastor of that large church. Greg then founded Miami International Theological Seminary (MINTS), a hard core Calvinist operation where he is now President. His friend Matt Slick and CARM are still recommended as a “theological” resource.

Thanks for that suggestion. BTW, I will remove from your comments the links to those error-meisters.

The doctrine of unconditional eternal security accepts the Calvinist perspective and states that once a person has been saved and accepts the atoning Blood of Jesus Christ, he can never be lost afterward, no matter what he might do.

The question to ask is whether a Born-Again Christian can cease being a Born-Again Christian. The answer to this question is, yes, a Believer can stop believing, a Christian can stop being a Christian, and the Born-Again can turn his back on Salvation and become lost-again. Even superficial reading of the Bible will reveal any number of personalities who were at one time within the Grace of God, but who subsequently fell from Grace. After their fall from Grace, these individuals became lost (Ezek. 28:12-19; Mat. 25:41; Gen. 1:26-31; Lk. 3:38; Lev. 10:1-2).

The Bible clearly states that we are saved by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8). We are further told that the just shall live by Faith (Heb. 10:38). Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works or by acts of righteousness, but as a gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.”

Louie Giglio – Calvinist, also, repent from sins gospel. Pastor of Passion City church, (Atlanta). Does the Laminin and Creation series. Known for resigning from the Presidential Inauguration speech, Passion Movement and Passion Youth, Jesus Culture, Lectio Divina with Piper and Beth Moore. Ecumenical, Associates with NAR, Seeker Friendly and Contemplative and Emergent teachers as well as Calvinists.

Also Brannon Howse is big with Worldview Weekend, he defends reformed theology and is sort of a radio “discernment ministry” with “Vic” (forget his last name, but was the same radio station where Ingrid Schleuter his daughter was forced out.

Another big one to add might be Matt Slick, since he is CARM – the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. A lot of people follow his page, just like apprising ministries , or gotquestions which is also predominantly reformed in its answers.

Looks like I forgot to give you anything on Chuck Colson, here is a little something.

Chuck Colson was very ecumenical, quoting people like Calvin, Luther, Popes…praised Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Priests, etc. He said he was a Baptist (he was a neo-Calvinist).

Known for Breakpoint.org, ECT (Evangelicals & Catholics Together), Prison Fellowship and his leadership in the Manhattan Declaration. Endorsed across the board by several various factions; Catholics and Calvinists such as J.I. Packer, Jerry Falwell, Bill Hybels, Jack Hayford, and Pat Robertson.

Yes, such statements of faith are as tricky as their proponents. And, as a detriment to the Truth of God’s salvation in Jesus Christ alone, it seems such folks are spreading like fresh, fetid fleas on a mangy mongrel; an ugly sight and unhealthy.

Jack, very interesting information regarding Pinto. I have seen this type of thing in quite a few statements of faith. The church/ministry professes belief in salvation by Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and then belies it with a statement to the effect of “the Holy Spirit indwells anyone who accepts Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior” (implies obedience is required to receive eternal life).

Our friend John questioned and brought to my attention whether the burial of Christ is an “essential” belief for salvation.

I agree that the burial of Christ, being an historical fact, is not an essential to believe for one’s salvation. However, we must be careful to express the essentials.. That is, Jesus is God in the Flesh Who died on the cross for our sins and arose alive from death.

John’s excellent explanation (with which I agree) is:

Christ’s burial is not mentioned in Romans until chapter 6 (in connection with baptism), and the term “burial” is not used in Acts at all (the term “sepulchre” is used in Acts 13:29 with respect to Jesus).

When Peter preaches the gospel to Cornelius, as depicted in Acts 10:39-44, he makes no mention of the burial of Christ. And yet, those who believed the spoken word immediately received the Holy Ghost.

The reality of the resurrection is vigorously defended in 1 Corinthians 15, and we see why in verse 12:
[12] Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Then, we see in verses 13-17 why it is of such central importance:
[13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:[14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
[16] For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
[17] And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Verse 17 takes us back to verse 2:
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
So, if Christ is not risen, all of us have believed in vain. Since He is risen, we have not. Christ could not have risen from the dead, and could not have defeated death, if He had not died. Verses 25-26 make it clear that Christ could not have put everything under His subjection, unless He had defeated death:
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
We see numerous times, in other scripture, references to the death and resurrection. For example, Romans 5:10:
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
We also see that it is the message of the cross that is rejected as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and is a stumbling block (1 Corinthians 1:23).
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
So, scripture would tell me that the crucifixion and resurrection are the central message, and cannot be dispensed with.
Some will say that since the burial of Christ was prophesied, it is indispensable to the Gospel. I would argue that there are many other prophesies that Christ fulfilled (for example, where He was born, riding a colt) that are not central elements to saving faith.
The burial is proof of His death. The sightings are proof of His resurrection. Some people need a lot of proof. Some people need none.

It is obvious that we must understand what God in the Flesh, Jesus’ propitiation really means. Propitiate is to expiate or atone for our sins. What specifically did Jesus do for us? And what was witnessed about what He did?

We all are sinners and in God’s Justice, sin must be paid for, otherwise there is no remission of sin:

“The wages of sin is death…” Romans 6:23” … and without shedding of blood is no remission.” Hebrews 9:22b

So the Perfect, Sinless, Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, shed His Blood on the Cross of Calvary and met those essential criteria.

Jesus was buried, proving to the Jews then and the world later that He had indeed died (for our sins).

Jesus arose from the grave, proving He is God.

” And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” 1 Corinthians 15:17

Christ made the full payment for our sins by His death, burial and resurrection. These are the essentials we need to believe for eternal life.

Now, the witnesses mentioned had nothing to do with Christ’s propitiation for our sins. But, as was the custom in those days, two, three or more witnesses would establish an event as fact. Therefore, as recorded in Scripture, the witnesses confirm Jesus’ resurrection and His own prophecy of it.

I pray this is clear.Addendum:{Please see the explanation below clarifying the burial of Christ as being proof but not an essential belief in Jesus for salvation.}

Rick Joyner is with Mike Bickle too… heads up the Oak Initiative as well. Large following, involved with that one General who has gone to also speak at Calvary Chapel, with both Chuck Smith and I ‘believe’ Rick Warren.

I’m wondering what you all’s thoughts were on the so called groundless gospel in the free grace movement. It seems to me people say one must believe that Jesus was seen of The Twelve and all the other appearances in order to be saved. 1 Cor 15:1-5 is used as a reference.

Jack, I wondered the same about the IHOP people. I remember several years ago before I knew much about these people, I became aware of their internship program which teaches them to separate from their families if they have any problems with the teaching there. Very cult-like. Very similar ideas as the Purpose Driven Church model.

Abe and FryingPan
“Francis Chan will be speaking at the IHOP-KC Onething Conference, alongside a plethora of false teachers.”

Hmmm… you know that they are associated with also the Oak Initiative? The political power base of the dominionists? Interesting enough, if you all go see the tree they use, most people might think it was the “Purpose Driven tree” as their logo. Many of these people have new-age symbols in their logos, and I think this tree they are all using reminds me of this Psalms…their time is not long.

I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. Ps 37:35-36

Blab it and grab it — too funny, Abe. But maybe I shouldn’t be laughing. I had a feeling that the IHOP thing was bad news. I checked the web site out about a month ago but couldn’t find anything conclusive. Then again, I was investigating someone’s claims that it’s a CULT as opposed to seeing if it was LS, so I may have been viewing it w/ the wrong “glasses” on.

It did occur to me that yes, this list is indeed unending, but if people are going to seek supplemental teaching (against the wishes of say, George Mueller–I’ll forgo pointing out the obvious irony there) there will be a need for a reference guide such as this.

Thanks — it is sort of a “corporate” effort.. we appreciate our readers help by filling in the blanks — adding new perps with proof of their error. We also appreciate your prayers that we will not be weary in well doing. (Galatians 6:9)

The problem we face is that such a list is unending thus we must be selective. There are so many who are opposed to the Gospel of God’s free Grace — that if all were included, we’d run out of World Wide Web internet space. We’d need the NSA facility to store it all. 😎

On Bill Johnson, Jack, I am finding many of these signs and wonders are elitists, similarly to the Load-ship teachers, and pious and busy patting themselves on the back about how much they tithed, how many times they fasted, and how they’re not like the sinners out there… (sound familiar anyone?) 🙂

Bill Johnson posted on his FB page August 11th this quote: “It’s harder to fake repentance with tears than without.”

Joyce Meyer, WOF female pastor, author, has her own ‘Bible’. She teaches Lordship, and repent from sins, and sinless perfection. She has done shows with Ray Comfort and sold books in packages together.

I need to figure out if you want people like Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Redding, CA, those are the people who are the Signs and Wonders crowd, but rapidly moving into mainstream with the neo-Calvinists, not so much the older reformed crowd, but the reformed and restless I think they call them.

Thanks Abe. I believe he is a false teacher also. He also says there will be no rapture and eternity will be spent on a renewed earth. Also that Plato has negatively influenced the Bible etc. I guess he’s saying stuff some people like to hear though.

NT Wright is a false teacher. He denies the substitutionary atonement, and instead, talks about how Jesus died so that we could be a member of the “covenant family”, whatever he means by that. He’s Anglican, which doesn’t bode well in terms of his affiliation, he will add works as the means of “proving” you’re in that “covenant family”, and he denies aspects of eternal torment. He’s way off the track, and isn’t good for doctrine at all. I pray your family members get away from that place.

Thanks for the info Jack and Bruce. I was also wondering if anyone is familiar with N.T. Wright? I bring him up because he seems to be a major influence on the local mega-church in my area. Unfortunately many family members on my wife’s side attend there regularly.

Tchividjian is a son-in-law or grandson-in-law of Billy Graham. Last I heard he was Pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Ft. Lauderdale. He took over the Coral Ridge Ministries when Dr. James Kennedy died in 2007. Tchividjian is a dedicated Calvinist and their Evangelism Explosion program teaches “repent = turn from sin for salvation.” One of the guys who used to work for me took the EE course when Kennedy was around — and Kennedy personally convinced my friend that the turn from sin for salvation teaching was scriptural. Very sad story. Very dangerous ministry.

Will try to add Tchividjian to the Wiki-Heresies list unless my computer rejects the spelling of his name. 😎

Good to hear from you! Good call on Piper; will try to add him in soon. Re. Tchividjian, you are correct about the Graham connection. He was connected with a conference that had LS speakers. I heard through the grapevine that he has made some efforts to distance himself from LS. Don’t know much more but will try to keep an eye on that.

Thanks. Those are important ideas about verification. As a principle, in a situation with a sourceless tract, it may be best to relegate it to our archives and not mentioned publicly. Our goal at this particular page, Wiki-Heresies is to , identify and verify and concentrate on the more well known errorists.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, its Purity and simplicity is our main concern at ExP.

Thanks for the confirmation link on Laurie.. As you may see, I have removed the link so we do not advertise Laurie.. but the link will be kept in archive for future reference. (Confusing teaching but an even more confusing web page)!!!

We may need a 3rd way to verify incoming claims of false teachers and false doctrine. Obviously the first two ways are links to other posts on this blog and, when necessary, links to source documents or other media. I’m not sure what the 3rd way should be, I just have the general idea. For example, say one of us stumbles upon say, a “gospel” tract that’s clearly heretical but the evidence contained within the tract is the only source. How would we bridge the gap between hearsay and proof? Maybe the more technically savvy can come up with something?

Holly,
Thanks, I assume you mean Idleman? If you will identify the culprit in the comment, it will help us compile an accurate list.

Abe,
Thanks — do you have a source for that quote? I know there are hundreds more from him that would qualify as well. Almost sounds like that old “false evangelism salvation” plea, “Don’t miss Heaven by 12″ inches, the distance between your head and your heart.” Wrong — Bad teaching – head faith vs heart faith!

Jack, check some of the 1 and 2 star reviews on his book on Amazon. Very sad what it did to some looking to grow in His grace. Similar to Chan’s book. He distinguishes between fan and of course disciple, and basically that is his saved/lost list. Again by things like tithing, and works, etc. Similar to Chan and Warren and those who forget and let the whole world know what works they are doing vs. not even letting their right hand know…

Good addition to Jack’s list of LSers. Interesting comment re. “ill-informed free grace advocates.” Similarly, a few other free gracers believe that even Calvin himself taught free grace theology because a few very isolated comments of Calvin have led them to that conclusion. By the way, Calvin’s m.o. was to start a paragraph in a biblical-sounding way and then, sifting the Bible through skewed interpretive lenses, to quickly negate the supposed “grace” statement with Calvinist propaganda.

Spurgeon, Charles Haddon – 19th century Calvinist/Lordship “salvationist” extraordinaire. Vacillated between teaching salvation by grace and by works, so that adherents of both Lordship “salvation” and some ill-informed free grace advocates each claim that he promoted their respective positions.

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