Thanks for your input. I agree wholeheartedly. Its not that easy to provide evidence one way or the other. Guess I just got carried away by those that repeat old, allready debunct misunderstandings that doesnt help anyone in the right direction. I also challendeg the O.P´s level of knowledge when he asked if Ishitani even had existed. Seems a bit strange to suggest he didnt. There are sources, totally unrelated to the Bujinkan / Takamastu-den that cite both Ishitani Takeo and Ishitani Matsutaro, like this one for example: http://ikkansai.kakurezato.com/takagiryu.htm

Its in japanese but if you scroll down towards the end there is a list of soke that includes both gentlement.

Tha case of Toda sensei is the most difficult no doubt but still there are a lot of starting points for anyone seriously interested in researching. I know Dr Zougari has done so and found much interesting information. For different reasons he has not released his information and I suspect it would in the end be a matter for the current soke to decide (whether to publish or not).

In the end, evidence can be falsified, even documents can be forged. You either believe or you dont. The amount of information you need to be a believer will vary from person to person Im sure. For me, I once was doubting quite a lot of it(like many others it seems) but changed my mind when I got more information. Looking in the mirror I see many even left the Bujinkan completely over bad information (I tend to believe they would have left sooner or later anyway).

Regards / Skuggvarg

Hi, skuggvarg.

Taht is Hontai Yoshin-ryu matters. That is the kind of outside Takamatsuden information it can be found. Good stuff but that does no make Takamatsuden legit. Not in the way that Hatsumi says. Mizuta and Ishitani are cool stuff. More Mizuta than Ishitani because Ishitani have lack of proves.

The case of Toda and the rest of the Takamatsuden is that japanese martial arts community needs facts and not legends to do their historical establishments.

I remember that some years ago that Dr. Zoughari (who was an officer in the administration department of Bujinkan) said that he found the grave of Toda, but did not tell were. How that can be? If that had been true the net will be saturated with photos of that grave.

You tell that the evidence can be falsified and I can agree with you about this. But, that its not that easy anymore. Maybe in the 60s you could tell anyone that you are a super hero but now people claim proves.

By the other side, you told me to investigate the Bogei Ryuha Daijiten because you believe that that is the true thing; well, I did my job and got nothing in favor. Sorry... Is is now the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten not good enough anymore? Just let me know...

You can check on this by your own. The link is in this thread. Please, read it all.

You talk about believing, well, I believe that Takamatsu have done his thing and everything was good for him until he dies. Then Hatsumi created the propaganda that all we know now because he needed too. I am not saying that Hatsumi did not inhered from Takamatsu, what I am trying to say is that Hatsumi use his name for propaganda.

I played in the ground that you said: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. That is the information I got. You can check it by your own.

This are my conclusions about the Takamatsuden:

Togakure-ryu Ninpo:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- The current Soke is Hatsumi Masaaki.

Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- The current Soke is Hatsumi Masaaki.

Koto-ryu Koppojutsu:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- There are other Menkyo Kaiden gaven by Takamatsu. Exp: Sato Kimbei.
- The current Soke is Ueno Takashi.

Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu:
- I do not have a conclusion yet.
- I need to do my work on this.
- It could be a Takamatsu creation.
- The current Soke is Tanemura Shoto.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anymore.

Kukishinden-ryu:
- Koryu
- It came from Ishitani from Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu / Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu.
- Takamatsu was Menkyo Kaiden and Shihan-ke by the Kuki family.
- Takamatsu gave several Menkyo Kaiden of this Ryu-ha.
- Each Menkyo Kaiden become to new branches with their own Soke.
- Hatsumi's branch is Kukishinden Happo Biken.

Takagi Yoshin Ryu:
- Koryu
- It came from Mizuta from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu / Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu.
- Takamatsu was Menkyo Kaiden.
- Takamatsu gave several Menkyo Kaiden of this Ryu-ha.
- Each Menkyo Kaiden become to new brances with their own Soke.
- Hatsumi's branch is Ju-taijutsu.

Shinden Fudo Ryu:
- Koryu
- It came form Ueno from Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo/Taijutsu.
- The head line become from Mabuni-Ueno to Hatsumi via Menkyo Kaiden.
- It could have an other source from Takamatsu by Menkyo Kaiden from Ueno.
- The current Soke of the head line is Kaminaga Shigemi.
- Hatsumi create his own branch and name it Dakentaijutsu.

Gyokushin-ryu Ninpo:
- Fake.
- The real thing is Gyokushin-ryu Jujutsu.
- Tanemura Shoto (Menkyo Kaiden) declared in public that this are dead Ryu-ha.
- Maybe is Hatsumi made up stuff.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anyway.

Kumoakure-ryu Ninpo:
- Fake.
- The real thing is unknown.
- Tanemura Shoto (Menkyo Kaiden) declared in public that this are dead Ryu-ha.
- Maybe is Hatusmi made up stuff.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anyway.

Some facts:
- Shoto Tanemura sue Hatsumi for the legal inheriting of Gikan-ryu and won.
- Hatsumi does not tach Gikan-ryu, nor Gyokushin-ryu, nor Kumogakure-ryu.
- Hatsumi lacks support for his claims.
- Hatsumi was rejected three times from the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai because lack of credentials.

Well, I do my job and I got my conclusions. They can change, of course. I do not care about that. But it have to be true evidences.

You have to stop being a believer and start to do your own investigations. I shared mine... People like you are making Bujinkan less as a dojo more like a chuch.

I use the book that you told me to. This are not rumors, is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. So... Do the same. And let see what conclusions you get.

I find the examples of Takamatsu, Hatsumi, and Ueno to be a more than a little odd, in that each person is alleged to not only be fully licensed in multitudinous schools, but have multiple soke positions as well.

To draw an easy comparison, it would be in some respects similar to an individual claiming mastery of classical piano, violin, guitar, and so on. This is not impossible per se, but nigh impossible for the investment of time and effort and other resources that mastery demands. Additionally, this style of classical training behooves one to assume the identity of the school's founder in the process. Practicioners liken it to marriage. One would be hard-pressed to do that for one school, a second is simply arduous, and a third ridiculous.

Granted, these men may not have exactly lead balanced lifestyles, but there's no way they were truly custodians, and soke at that, to so many different traditions. Rather, I would submit that their wives had different outfits, so to speak. Fuzoku ryu-ha or heiden bujutsu such as the arts within Shinto Muso Ryu are schools with their own names, yet they are subsumed within the main school. In some instances, these ryu-ha were originally independant and later integrated (e.g. Ikkaku Ryu), but others are created to augment the main school (e.g. Uchida Ryu).

As it was mentioned that Togakure Ryu shares densho with Gyokko Ryu and the latter is related to Koto Ryu, one could imagine:

a) there was a super-school these got extracted from that is not apparent and/or longer extant

b) one of these is the super-school and the others sub-schools

Another thing is that despite a phenomenon of bugei ryu-ha beginning around the 1400s, it's not as though every practice was immediately codified (e.g. Higo Koryu) and other unique traditions branched off of schools only to be codified generations later (e.g. Toda-ha Buko Ryu). Perhaps some of these ryu-ha existed informally for generations before being formalized only recently.

I find the examples of Takamatsu, Hatsumi, and Ueno to be a more than a little odd, in that each person is alleged to not only be fully licensed in multitudinous schools, but have multiple soke positions as well.

To draw an easy comparison, it would be in some respects similar to an individual claiming mastery of classical piano, violin, guitar, and so on. This is not impossible per se, but nigh impossible for the investment of time and effort and other resources that mastery demands. Additionally, this style of classical training behooves one to assume the identity of the school's founder in the process. Practicioners liken it to marriage. One would be hard-pressed to do that for one school, a second is simply arduous, and a third ridiculous.

Granted, these men may not have exactly lead balanced lifestyles, but there's no way they were truly custodians, and soke at that, to so many different traditions. Rather, I would submit that their wives had different outfits, so to speak. Fuzoku ryu-ha or heiden bujutsu such as the arts within Shinto Muso Ryu are schools with their own names, yet they are subsumed within the main school. In some instances, these ryu-ha were originally independant and later integrated (e.g. Ikkaku Ryu), but others are created to augment the main school (e.g. Uchida Ryu).

As it was mentioned that Togakure Ryu shares densho with Gyokko Ryu and the latter is related to Koto Ryu, one could imagine:

a) there was a super-school these got extracted from that is not apparent and/or longer extant

b) one of these is the super-school and the others sub-schools

Another thing is that despite a phenomenon of bugei ryu-ha beginning around the 1400s, it's not as though every practice was immediately codified (e.g. Higo Koryu) and other unique traditions branched off of schools only to be codified generations later (e.g. Toda-ha Buko Ryu). Perhaps some of these ryu-ha existed informally for generations before being formalized only recently.

Apologies for A.) being late to the party, and B.) not really advancing the discussion, but I wanted to quickly chime in on a particular administrative matter.

The BR(D)JT scans linked earlier are not "Harvard links" in any meaningful or scholarly sense. The images are hosted on a Harvard server because I am a staff employee at the university; I am not a Harvard-affiliated scholar.

I intend to move the images to a private server soon, to avoid any potential confusion.

Apologies for A.) being late to the party, and B.) not really advancing the discussion, but I wanted to quickly chime in on a particular administrative matter.

The BR(D)JT scans linked earlier are not "Harvard links" in any meaningful or scholarly sense. The images are hosted on a Harvard server because I am a staff employee at the university; I am not a Harvard-affiliated scholar.

I intend to move the images to a private server soon, to avoid any potential confusion.

Taht is Hontai Yoshin-ryu matters. That is the kind of outside Takamatsuden information it can be found. Good stuff but that does no make Takamatsuden legit. Not in the way that Hatsumi says. Mizuta and Ishitani are cool stuff. More Mizuta than Ishitani because Ishitani have lack of proves.

The case of Toda and the rest of the Takamatsuden is that japanese martial arts community needs facts and not legends to do their historical establishments.

I remember that some years ago that Dr. Zoughari (who was an officer in the administration department of Bujinkan) said that he found the grave of Toda, but did not tell were. How that can be? If that had been true the net will be saturated with photos of that grave.

You tell that the evidence can be falsified and I can agree with you about this. But, that its not that easy anymore. Maybe in the 60s you could tell anyone that you are a super hero but now people claim proves.

By the other side, you told me to investigate the Bogei Ryuha Daijiten because you believe that that is the true thing; well, I did my job and got nothing in favor. Sorry... Is is now the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten not good enough anymore? Just let me know...

You can check on this by your own. The link is in this thread. Please, read it all.

You talk about believing, well, I believe that Takamatsu have done his thing and everything was good for him until he dies. Then Hatsumi created the propaganda that all we know now because he needed too. I am not saying that Hatsumi did not inhered from Takamatsu, what I am trying to say is that Hatsumi use his name for propaganda.

I played in the ground that you said: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. That is the information I got. You can check it by your own.

This are my conclusions about the Takamatsuden:

Togakure-ryu Ninpo:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- The current Soke is Hatsumi Masaaki.

Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- The current Soke is Hatsumi Masaaki.

Koto-ryu Koppojutsu:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- There are other Menkyo Kaiden gaven by Takamatsu. Exp: Sato Kimbei.
- The current Soke is Ueno Takashi.

Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu:
- I do not have a conclusion yet.
- I need to do my work on this.
- It could be a Takamatsu creation.
- The current Soke is Tanemura Shoto.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anymore.

Kukishinden-ryu:
- Koryu
- It came from Ishitani from Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu / Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu.
- Takamatsu was Menkyo Kaiden and Shihan-ke by the Kuki family.
- Takamatsu gave several Menkyo Kaiden of this Ryu-ha.
- Each Menkyo Kaiden become to new branches with their own Soke.
- Hatsumi's branch is Kukishinden Happo Biken.

Takagi Yoshin Ryu:
- Koryu
- It came from Mizuta from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu / Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu.
- Takamatsu was Menkyo Kaiden.
- Takamatsu gave several Menkyo Kaiden of this Ryu-ha.
- Each Menkyo Kaiden become to new brances with their own Soke.
- Hatsumi's branch is Ju-taijutsu.

Shinden Fudo Ryu:
- Koryu
- It came form Ueno from Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo/Taijutsu.
- The head line become from Mabuni-Ueno to Hatsumi via Menkyo Kaiden.
- It could have an other source from Takamatsu by Menkyo Kaiden from Ueno.
- The current Soke of the head line is Kaminaga Shigemi.
- Hatsumi create his own branch and name it Dakentaijutsu.

Gyokushin-ryu Ninpo:
- Fake.
- The real thing is Gyokushin-ryu Jujutsu.
- Tanemura Shoto (Menkyo Kaiden) declared in public that this are dead Ryu-ha.
- Maybe is Hatsumi made up stuff.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anyway.

Kumoakure-ryu Ninpo:
- Fake.
- The real thing is unknown.
- Tanemura Shoto (Menkyo Kaiden) declared in public that this are dead Ryu-ha.
- Maybe is Hatusmi made up stuff.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anyway.

Some facts:
- Shoto Tanemura sue Hatsumi for the legal inheriting of Gikan-ryu and won.
- Hatsumi does not tach Gikan-ryu, nor Gyokushin-ryu, nor Kumogakure-ryu.
- Hatsumi lacks support for his claims.
- Hatsumi was rejected three times from the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai because lack of credentials.

Well, I do my job and I got my conclusions. They can change, of course. I do not care about that. But it have to be true evidences.

You have to stop being a believer and start to do your own investigations. I shared mine... People like you are making Bujinkan less as a dojo more like a chuch.

I use the book that you told me to. This are not rumors, is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. So... Do the same. And let see what conclusions you get.

Best regards.

Sorry for the late reply but I didnt see that this thread had moved until now. Im glad you are using the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten I mentioned. May I ask why you seem to put more emphasis on the older editions than on the later one/s? Areyou doubting the correctness or are you somehow trying to extrapolate information from all editions? The reason I ask is that you would imagine later editions had corrected errenous parts. This at least is what I have heard. Im trying to verify something I heard about the author Koyama Ryutaro who according to what was said investigated the Takamatsu ryuha and found evidence that supported the lineage. This it seems he somehow presented to the author of BRHDJ who then corrected the information for the 1978 edition. There is a 2003 edition and I think it still has the 1978 info in it.

Anyhow, its at least a bit reassuring you are trying to research into it. What im wondering about though is your motives behind. Do you have any axe to grind, are you in the Bujinkan or do you have some sort of historical interest? Much of what you write above might be true but some things surely arent.

Your comment about japanese martial arts community is quite shady and shows you either have an agenda or just dont know how this community works.

Your comment about Mr Zoughari being some sort of Bujinkan administrative guy is totally wrong. He has no formal position and hasnt had one in the past either. That he used to visit Hatsumi sensei and often were in his house has nothing to do with that.

Your assumption that Everything was well until Takamatsu died and that Hatsumi sensei then went ahead and made things up are totally up the wall. Proove it! On the contrary, Hatsumi sensei has prooved in the past all relevant documents as well as photos, even films of his training with Takamatsu. He still has everything, every little letter, densho, makimono, paintings, pictures, everything in his possession. It matters little of course to this discussion if you dont have access to it.

Taht is Hontai Yoshin-ryu matters. That is the kind of outside Takamatsuden information it can be found. Good stuff but that does no make Takamatsuden legit. Not in the way that Hatsumi says. Mizuta and Ishitani are cool stuff. More Mizuta than Ishitani because Ishitani have lack of proves.

The case of Toda and the rest of the Takamatsuden is that japanese martial arts community needs facts and not legends to do their historical establishments.

I remember that some years ago that Dr. Zoughari (who was an officer in the administration department of Bujinkan) said that he found the grave of Toda, but did not tell were. How that can be? If that had been true the net will be saturated with photos of that grave.

You tell that the evidence can be falsified and I can agree with you about this. But, that its not that easy anymore. Maybe in the 60s you could tell anyone that you are a super hero but now people claim proves.

By the other side, you told me to investigate the Bogei Ryuha Daijiten because you believe that that is the true thing; well, I did my job and got nothing in favor. Sorry... Is is now the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten not good enough anymore? Just let me know...

You can check on this by your own. The link is in this thread. Please, read it all.

You talk about believing, well, I believe that Takamatsu have done his thing and everything was good for him until he dies. Then Hatsumi created the propaganda that all we know now because he needed too. I am not saying that Hatsumi did not inhered from Takamatsu, what I am trying to say is that Hatsumi use his name for propaganda.

I played in the ground that you said: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. That is the information I got. You can check it by your own.

This are my conclusions about the Takamatsuden:

Togakure-ryu Ninpo:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- The current Soke is Hatsumi Masaaki.

Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- The current Soke is Hatsumi Masaaki.

Koto-ryu Koppojutsu:
- Gendai Budo.
- Made up by Takamatsu by old Densho and his genius.
- There are other Menkyo Kaiden gaven by Takamatsu. Exp: Sato Kimbei.
- The current Soke is Ueno Takashi.

Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu:
- I do not have a conclusion yet.
- I need to do my work on this.
- It could be a Takamatsu creation.
- The current Soke is Tanemura Shoto.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anymore.

Kukishinden-ryu:
- Koryu
- It came from Ishitani from Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu / Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu.
- Takamatsu was Menkyo Kaiden and Shihan-ke by the Kuki family.
- Takamatsu gave several Menkyo Kaiden of this Ryu-ha.
- Each Menkyo Kaiden become to new branches with their own Soke.
- Hatsumi's branch is Kukishinden Happo Biken.

Takagi Yoshin Ryu:
- Koryu
- It came from Mizuta from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu / Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu.
- Takamatsu was Menkyo Kaiden.
- Takamatsu gave several Menkyo Kaiden of this Ryu-ha.
- Each Menkyo Kaiden become to new brances with their own Soke.
- Hatsumi's branch is Ju-taijutsu.

Shinden Fudo Ryu:
- Koryu
- It came form Ueno from Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo/Taijutsu.
- The head line become from Mabuni-Ueno to Hatsumi via Menkyo Kaiden.
- It could have an other source from Takamatsu by Menkyo Kaiden from Ueno.
- The current Soke of the head line is Kaminaga Shigemi.
- Hatsumi create his own branch and name it Dakentaijutsu.

Gyokushin-ryu Ninpo:
- Fake.
- The real thing is Gyokushin-ryu Jujutsu.
- Tanemura Shoto (Menkyo Kaiden) declared in public that this are dead Ryu-ha.
- Maybe is Hatsumi made up stuff.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anyway.

Kumoakure-ryu Ninpo:
- Fake.
- The real thing is unknown.
- Tanemura Shoto (Menkyo Kaiden) declared in public that this are dead Ryu-ha.
- Maybe is Hatusmi made up stuff.
- Hatsumi do not teach it anyway.

Some facts:
- Shoto Tanemura sue Hatsumi for the legal inheriting of Gikan-ryu and won.
- Hatsumi does not tach Gikan-ryu, nor Gyokushin-ryu, nor Kumogakure-ryu.
- Hatsumi lacks support for his claims.
- Hatsumi was rejected three times from the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai because lack of credentials.

Well, I do my job and I got my conclusions. They can change, of course. I do not care about that. But it have to be true evidences.

You have to stop being a believer and start to do your own investigations. I shared mine... People like you are making Bujinkan less as a dojo more like a chuch.

I use the book that you told me to. This are not rumors, is the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. So... Do the same. And let see what conclusions you get.

Best regards.

Hello Oniwaban,

First off alot of your statements are really not based on fact. I do not need to prove them, you do because you are making the statements. I am just curious where you got your information from. Unless of course you have access to Hatsummi's scrolls some of this information is false. I will give you an example of how just one piece of your information is mixed up.

1. Tanemura sensei do not sue Hatusmmi for the Gikan Ryu sokeship, the court case was for another issue and the scrolls were brought into questions as more of a character assination. Which of course Tanemura Sensei won.

This is just one example of how your information is mixed up. As another member said, what is your motive in this task. What is your connection to any of the organizations. If you are researching this information, did you travel to Japan and speak with these other lines to confirm some of your statements. Did you actually observe the scrolls etc etc. This of course would cost a fortune to do. Typing a few words on the internet, looking at some books is not a thorough investigation of the facts. I gave you one piece of information in another post about Ishitani, I told you the one line had found his grave. So I am assuming you flew to Japan and actually found the grave??? Of did you contact the Soke of the Takagi line and interview him?

So I will end with a question. What length have you gone to research this information. Searching via the internet is not a very valid source.