DropEmJayBird wrote:In all seriousness - Fleury would have been crucified for giving up those two goals last night, especially the overtime one. There would be 10 threads up this morning on his lack of rebound control or some other stupid **** about how he's a headcase in OT.

Vokoun wasn't really tested last night, or for that matter in any of these games. Ottawa hasn't generated all that much offensivly other than getting knocked on their ass in the crease area. He's doing exactly what he should be doing.

Dude, are you Mark Andre's best friend or something? Holy **** I cannot understand your constant adoration of this guy. Vokoun made numerous saves on point blank chances this series. If you honestly think Fleury would have gotten a shutout last night you are absolutely bonkers. Yeah he probably would have made that save on Alfredsson last night. But he also would have given up 4 goals before that.

DropEmJayBird wrote:In all seriousness - Fleury would have been crucified for giving up those two goals last night, especially the overtime one. There would be 10 threads up this morning on his lack of rebound control or some other stupid **** about how he's a headcase in OT.

Vokoun wasn't really tested last night, or for that matter in any of these games. Ottawa hasn't generated all that much offensivly other than getting knocked on their ass in the crease area. He's doing exactly what he should be doing.

Dude, are you Mark Andre's best friend or something? Holy **** I cannot understand your constant adoration of this guy. Vokoun made numerous saves on point blank chances this series. If you honestly think Fleury would have gotten a shutout last night you are absolutely bonkers. Yeah he probably would have made that save on Alfredsson last night. But he also would have given up 4 goals before that.

Please remove your tinfoil hat.

Just keeping it real - The pathetic Fleury hatred is something I have a real problem with. He was great all year, the team fell apart in front of him against the islanders. He faced more quality chances in one islander game than Vokoun has this entire series - and he still made a bunch of good saves. He gets ripped apart for a few bad bounces in games that an islanders deserve a ton of credit for creating those bounces.

I'd give Vokoun a pass too - because I don't put a goalie on a pedestal. I understand the team aspect to the game - and the value of not turning the puck over to 40 some times a game. Vokoun's done exactly what an NHL goalie should do when playing a team has trouble scoring goals - especially when the team in front of him has done a better job of managing the puck. I have no doubt Fleury would do the same. The real value of Vokoun is that he offers an alternative to go to when the team needed a wake up call - he's done that very well.

Fleury had a bad few games, ironically the same time the entire team had a few bad games. People blowing it out of proportion and claiming "OMG HEADCASE FLEURY WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP ELEVENTY GOALS LAST NIGHT" is getting out of hand.

farnham16 wrote:Dude, that is not what I said at all and not the argument I am making.

My opinion is that no player that makes it to the NHL has low hockey IQ. That does not mean at all that NHL players don't do dumb things on the ice sometimes. Of course they do. But that doesn't mean they don't know the game when they make mistakes. Thats what Mr Dump has been trying to say is the case with Malkin and Letang.

Again, not one player in the NHL has low hockey IQ.

But something has to give here. If Malkin has a high hockey IQ, but keeps making a low hockey IQ play, then what do you call that? Is he a dumb hockey genius? Seriously think about this a moment. One person is saying he is dumb, you are saying he can't be because he is in the NHL. Then someone says no NHL player can have a low hockey IQ. But if he is hockey smart why would he make some less than intelligent hockey decisions. So because right after making that ill advised low hockey smarts type of play....he says to himself, Dear Malkin, that was a dumb play, then he really isn't dumb, but just had a bump in the road?

I wouldn't trade Malkin for any player in the NHL but comparing him to other NHLer's in the IQ department only...he is not topping the list. Sorry.

Mistakes are made because he's human. Just like everyone else. Sorry to say, but there's a heck of a lot of great players in the NHL that are trying very hard as well as Malkin. Malkin has the puck on his stick just about more than anyone out there, that means mistakes are going to happen. He's not a robot.

I'm not saying Malkin is the smartest player in the game. But to suggest he has low hockey IQ is a terrible argument. Malkin does things on the ice that maybe only a couple other guys in the world can do. That doesn't just take talent. It takes hockey smarts as well.

DropEmJayBird wrote:In all seriousness - Fleury would have been crucified for giving up those two goals last night, especially the overtime one. There would be 10 threads up this morning on his lack of rebound control or some other stupid **** about how he's a headcase in OT.

Vokoun wasn't really tested last night, or for that matter in any of these games. Ottawa hasn't generated all that much offensivly other than getting knocked on their ass in the crease area. He's doing exactly what he should be doing.

Dude, are you Mark Andre's best friend or something? Holy **** I cannot understand your constant adoration of this guy. Vokoun made numerous saves on point blank chances this series. If you honestly think Fleury would have gotten a shutout last night you are absolutely bonkers. Yeah he probably would have made that save on Alfredsson last night. But he also would have given up 4 goals before that.

Please remove your tinfoil hat.

Game 3 wouldn't have gotten to overtime because Vokoun made 4 saves that MAF would have given up.

DropEmJayBird wrote:In all seriousness - Fleury would have been crucified for giving up those two goals last night, especially the overtime one. There would be 10 threads up this morning on his lack of rebound control or some other stupid **** about how he's a headcase in OT.

Vokoun wasn't really tested last night, or for that matter in any of these games. Ottawa hasn't generated all that much offensivly other than getting knocked on their ass in the crease area. He's doing exactly what he should be doing.

Dude, are you Mark Andre's best friend or something? Holy **** I cannot understand your constant adoration of this guy. Vokoun made numerous saves on point blank chances this series. If you honestly think Fleury would have gotten a shutout last night you are absolutely bonkers. Yeah he probably would have made that save on Alfredsson last night. But he also would have given up 4 goals before that.

Please remove your tinfoil hat.

Just keeping it real - The pathetic Fleury hatred is something I have a real problem with. He was great all year, the team fell apart in front of him against the islanders. He faced more quality chances in one islander game than Vokoun has this entire series - and he still made a bunch of good saves. He gets ripped apart for a few bad bounces in games that an islanders deserve a ton of credit for creating those bounces.

I'd give Vokoun a pass too - because I don't put a goalie on a pedestal. I understand the team aspect to the game - and the value of not turning the puck over to 40 some times a game. Vokoun's done exactly what an NHL goalie should do when playing a team has trouble scoring goals - especially when the team in front of him has done a better job of managing the puck. I have no doubt Fleury would do the same. The real value of Vokoun is that he offers an alternative to go to when the team needed a wake up call - he's done that very well.

Fleury had a bad few games, ironically the same time the entire team had a few bad games. People blowing it out of proportion and claiming "OMG HEADCASE FLEURY WOULD HAVE GIVEN UP ELEVENTY GOALS LAST NIGHT" is getting out of hand.

He wasn't "great"; he was decent. Nothing spectacular, but he wasn't an issue at any point, which is what this team needs from a goalie: consistent competence. His team didn't "fall apart" and its not "a few bad bounces." He's been alternating between below average and dumpster fire for four consecutive playoffs. I don't "hate" MAF; why would I "hate" someone I don't know? But what I can see is that come playoff time, for whatever reason, he is a poor performer. This is just reality.

He wasn't "great"; he was decent. Nothing spectacular, but he wasn't an issue at any point, which is what this team needs from a goalie: consistent competence. His team didn't "fall apart" and its not "a few bad bounces." He's been alternating between below average and dumpster fire for four consecutive playoffs. I don't "hate" MAF; why would I "hate" someone I don't know? But what I can see is that come playoff time, for whatever reason, he is a poor performer. This is just reality.

Your defense of him is honorable, but you've lost touch with reality.

His team didn't fall apart? that might have been the worse 3 game stretch the penguins played this season. They gave up numerous quality scoring chances, numerous odd man breaks, turned the puck over constantly. Everyone agrees the islanders severly outplayed the penguins in all zones of the ice - but somehow there is a disconnect of that fact when it comes to Fleury.

It's a wonder they didnt win games 2 through 4 by 4 or 5 goals each game.

The recent Vokoun games have resembled game 1 of the islander series. A dominating Penguins performance that literally shuts down the opponent's offense - keeping them outside and clearing rebounds. Koun's done exactly what he should do, and that's all the reason to keep him in net, but there is no doubt in my mind Fleury would have done the same if not better, just as he did in game 1 vs the islanders.

Vokoun is facing 35 shots per game versus 32/game that Fleury faced. The Senators had 48 shots in game 3. You are the only person on here who thinks that Fleury would have matched Vokoun's performance in that game or overall since Vokoun got in the game. What about Fleury tells you that he would be putting up a .949 against even more shots per game like Vokoun has in the playoffs so far? The idea that he'd actually "do better" given what happened in the Islanders series and over the last 4 playoffs is so hilarious I actually laughed out loud.

Jay, I don't understand you. You made your case and now you keep posting these comments out of the blue to prove your point, even though you must be outvoted by 90% or more people here. So, like, opinions are welcomed, but it's not good to be so stubborn.

Or are you trying to say that because the Pens are facing more shots that they're playing worse? There's a lot more to hockey than stats.

Of course not. I agree that the team is playing better. I just disagree that we "fell apart" in the prior series, and noting that the suggestion that Vokoun doesn't have much to do back there is belied by at least one important metric as it relates to goalies, shots/against. On your last point, I certainly didn't say there wasn't, so save the condescension. Citing one metric isn't to the exclusion of any other form of review/analysis, statistical or otherwise.

farnham16 wrote:Dude, that is not what I said at all and not the argument I am making.

My opinion is that no player that makes it to the NHL has low hockey IQ. That does not mean at all that NHL players don't do dumb things on the ice sometimes. Of course they do. But that doesn't mean they don't know the game when they make mistakes. Thats what Mr Dump has been trying to say is the case with Malkin and Letang.

Again, not one player in the NHL has low hockey IQ.

But something has to give here. If Malkin has a high hockey IQ, but keeps making a low hockey IQ play, then what do you call that? Is he a dumb hockey genius? Seriously think about this a moment. One person is saying he is dumb, you are saying he can't be because he is in the NHL. Then someone says no NHL player can have a low hockey IQ. But if he is hockey smart why would he make some less than intelligent hockey decisions. So because right after making that ill advised low hockey smarts type of play....he says to himself, Dear Malkin, that was a dumb play, then he really isn't dumb, but just had a bump in the road?

I wouldn't trade Malkin for any player in the NHL but comparing him to other NHLer's in the IQ department only...he is not topping the list. Sorry.

Mistakes are made because he's human. Just like everyone else. Sorry to say, but there's a heck of a lot of great players in the NHL that are trying very hard as well as Malkin. Malkin has the puck on his stick just about more than anyone out there, that means mistakes are going to happen. He's not a robot.

I'm not saying Malkin is the smartest player in the game. But to suggest he has low hockey IQ is a terrible argument. Malkin does things on the ice that maybe only a couple other guys in the world can do. That doesn't just take talent. It takes hockey smarts as well.

Malkin makes dumb plays with and without the puck. See the final minute of game 3 for evidence. To say he makes mistakes only because he has the puck so much isn't true.

The guy gets by with talent, a ton of it. Of course he has some hockey smarts, everyone in the league does, but when you compare his hockey IQ to the other elite players in the league, Geno falls behind. His IQ does not match his talent and has a long way to go to do so.

Well, I was about to havea minor stroke. All day, I was convinced the game was tonight. the fact that there were no game day threads or lineup threads didn't click. I was frantically going through the guide and cursing Armstrong Cables owners with plague, hanta virus, herpes and any other thing I could think of. Now I find myself with a giant hole in the evening....