I never said we were did I. It was you who proclaimed that China always got the upper hand.

....and it does have the upper hand. The USA is challenging that and the final outcome of that is not determined. Even if the USA comes out on top, doesn't mean that size matters when economies go head to head.

Using that logic, China have the upper hand regardless who they are dealing with.

Canada has a relatively small market, do you think they let themselves get bullied around ? You want the U.K. to fail don’t you, just admit it.

Of course the sad coont does just like the rest of the remoaners ,they will hate it if the UK is a success in the next 20 years when we are out.

The way Catalus destroyed him yesterday with him then throwing his toys out of the pram with his "I am not talking to you anymore" since you've destroyed me tells us everything we need to know about what type of person he is.

The bottom line is they are all free to leave if they want to but of course they won't.it tells us exactly what we and they already know.Hopefully that will change when we are out and the remoaners leave in large numbers backing up their project fear opinions, but I would not hold your breath,can you imagine Southern Ireland if they all went back home the place would fecking sink.

Anyway the start of another great weekend,getting the train up to London for a freebie at Arsenal on Sunday courtesy of Emirates I may forget to update the countdown but hopefully I'll find a minute.

Of course the sad coont does just like the rest of the remoaners ,they will hate it if the UK is a success in the next 20 years when we are out.

The way Catalus destroyed him yesterday with him then throwing his toys out of the pram with his "I am not talking to you anymore" since you've destroyed me tells us everything we need to know about what type of person he is.

The bottom line is they are all free to leave if they want to but of course they won't.it tells us exactly what we and they already know.Hopefully that will change when we are out and the remoaners leave in large numbers backing up their project fear opinions, but I would not hold your breath,can you imagine Southern Ireland if they all went back home the place would fecking sink.

Anyway the start of another great weekend,getting the train up to London for a freebie at Arsenal on Sunday courtesy of Emirates I may forget to update the countdown but hopefully I'll find a minute.

189 AFLI

SIUYRL

[Post edited 21 Sep 2018 12:49]

Well said, Paul. They just haven’t got the balls to admit it. Enjoy your weekend.

No substance in that post again. They're not demanding anything, we're the ones demanding special access to their single market and they're standing firm and saying no.

Of course there’s substance and you know it. They still want access to our market and we want to keep access to the single market. You can bring deals with other countries outside of the EU into all you want but the fact is none of them have the current deal that the the U.K. has with the EU and no country has ever left the EU. It’s new territory and the EU have a lot to lose. Barnier has already stated that they are prepared to give a deal like nothing before so comparing it other deals is utterly pointless. there’s still a lot of bargaining to do and you remainers have no clue whatsoever what deal the EU will eventually agree to.

Have a look at this interactive map - with recent data from 2016, and ask yourself how is pretty much all of Western Europe richer than West Wales and the Valleys (2016 GDP per person in purchasing power standard as % of EU average: 68%) ? You have to go to regions in Portugal and the southernmost parts of Spain and Italy to find poorer regions outside of the old Warsaw Pact countries. In fact, there are a fair few countries (Estonia and Lithuania) and regions in eastern Europe that are now wealthier than West Wales and the Valleys.

How on earth has this come to pass? A total lack of investment in the industrialised areas of the UK - and no regional policy worthy of the name. Yet the first million pound cheque was signed in the Coal Exchange in Cardiff in 1904. So much for a "Coal fund". I see no talk whatsover amongst Brexiteers at reversing this shameful record. God there are mugs out there.

The Gini coefficient, yes I read about it, I also read other reports that would indicate Gini isn't accurate. There are 45 families in Germany who have 50% of the wealth, that coefficient may be as much use as the Barnett formula. Wales (in 2016) made a net gain of 245 million from the EU, not so very much really compared to what Westminster subsidises us by. That being another point that you've raised that I don't disagree with, Wales should get more money from Westminster. That you see no talk from Brexiteers about that doesn't mean we don't, just that you don't see or hear it. Those Eastern European countries get significantly more money than Wales, Lithuania secured 8.39 billion for the current period but has been told it's not likely to get any more after 2020 http://m.en.delfi.lt/european-union/article.php?id=72825880&categoryID=65091413

Wales was given 5.3 billion over 17 years 2000-2017, Estonia is getting over 4 billion just in the current period (2014-2020). Maybe the question should be, when wales is so much worse off than other EU areas, why are we getting so little from them? Is it because we are in the UK too? In which case we are screwed over whichever way you go because Independence from England is hardly feasible. Is it because we are mugs or, much like voting for Theresa May, people made the best of a very bad choice and not slap away the hand that feeds us the most. Or will you say the EU would fill the English void?

The Gini coefficient, yes I read about it, I also read other reports that would indicate Gini isn't accurate. There are 45 families in Germany who have 50% of the wealth, that coefficient may be as much use as the Barnett formula. Wales (in 2016) made a net gain of 245 million from the EU, not so very much really compared to what Westminster subsidises us by. That being another point that you've raised that I don't disagree with, Wales should get more money from Westminster. That you see no talk from Brexiteers about that doesn't mean we don't, just that you don't see or hear it. Those Eastern European countries get significantly more money than Wales, Lithuania secured 8.39 billion for the current period but has been told it's not likely to get any more after 2020 http://m.en.delfi.lt/european-union/article.php?id=72825880&categoryID=65091413

Wales was given 5.3 billion over 17 years 2000-2017, Estonia is getting over 4 billion just in the current period (2014-2020). Maybe the question should be, when wales is so much worse off than other EU areas, why are we getting so little from them? Is it because we are in the UK too? In which case we are screwed over whichever way you go because Independence from England is hardly feasible. Is it because we are mugs or, much like voting for Theresa May, people made the best of a very bad choice and not slap away the hand that feeds us the most. Or will you say the EU would fill the English void?

I think you've answered your own question. Wales gets a relatively poor deal from the EU because it's a part of the UK. This is reflected across EU institutions. For instance ROI has 12 members of the European Parliament for a 4.8 million population - Wales has just 4 for its 3 million population. Ireland get's it's share of the EU presidency and Wales doesn't. And so on. Hardly surprising Ireland have done very well out of Europe and built a prosperous nation state on the back of it, whereas Wales has lagged behind. That's hardly Europe's fault though - but simply reflects the refusal of the centralist UK state to properly support prosperity throughout its constituent parts.

The idea that Westminster subsidises us is a fallacy when you look at the bigger picture. England provides similar funding to support public services in its poorer regions to that supplied to Wales (some have argued Wales does less well). This reflects the fact that the legacy of our industrial past and current poverty results in greater demand on health and social care - as it does in the North East, and similar regions of England. But when it comes to investment in infrastructure - and transport in particular Wales does very badly. Transport is only partially devolved to Wales - and we don't get funding based on the Barnett formula. This explains why we end up with piss-poor investment in rail and roads. London gets Crossrail and Crossrail 2 (and Corbyn's just re-iterated plans for a Crossrail of the North) and Swansea doesn't even get an electrified railway. Why is the Welsh government expected to fund M4 improvements from borrowing - is the M4 not a key component of Uk infrastructure?

The UK government - by investing pretty much exclusively in London has created a vortex of opportunity that sucks in the youngest Welsh talent (and therefore the healthiest - making fewer demands on the health and social care systems) and gives out the old and frail to retire to Wales, which we are expected to care for from our meagre funds. So, who's subsidising who? The simple truth of the matter is that the UK government has systematically failed to invest in infrastructure at a comparable level to the rest of the UK - a key ingredient for growth and prosperity.

I see nothing whatsoever to suggest that the UKs failure over many decades to invest in Wales will change post-Brexit. In fact, in all probability things will get worse - because we won't even be able to call on the modest funds that have previously been available from the EU.

The Gini coefficient, yes I read about it, I also read other reports that would indicate Gini isn't accurate. There are 45 families in Germany who have 50% of the wealth, that coefficient may be as much use as the Barnett formula. Wales (in 2016) made a net gain of 245 million from the EU, not so very much really compared to what Westminster subsidises us by. That being another point that you've raised that I don't disagree with, Wales should get more money from Westminster. That you see no talk from Brexiteers about that doesn't mean we don't, just that you don't see or hear it. Those Eastern European countries get significantly more money than Wales, Lithuania secured 8.39 billion for the current period but has been told it's not likely to get any more after 2020 http://m.en.delfi.lt/european-union/article.php?id=72825880&categoryID=65091413

Wales was given 5.3 billion over 17 years 2000-2017, Estonia is getting over 4 billion just in the current period (2014-2020). Maybe the question should be, when wales is so much worse off than other EU areas, why are we getting so little from them? Is it because we are in the UK too? In which case we are screwed over whichever way you go because Independence from England is hardly feasible. Is it because we are mugs or, much like voting for Theresa May, people made the best of a very bad choice and not slap away the hand that feeds us the most. Or will you say the EU would fill the English void?

I think you've answered your own question. Wales gets a relatively poor deal from the EU because it's a part of the UK. This is reflected across EU institutions. For instance ROI has 12 members of the European Parliament for a 4.8 million population - Wales has just 4 for its 3 million population. Ireland get's it's share of the EU presidency and Wales doesn't. And so on. Hardly surprising Ireland have done very well out of Europe and built a prosperous nation state on the back of it, whereas Wales has lagged behind. That's hardly Europe's fault though - but simply reflects the refusal of the centralist UK state to properly support prosperity throughout its constituent parts.

The idea that Westminster subsidises us is a fallacy when you look at the bigger picture. England provides similar funding to support public services in its poorer regions to that supplied to Wales (some have argued Wales does less well). This reflects the fact that the legacy of our industrial past and current poverty results in greater demand on health and social care - as it does in the North East, and similar regions of England. But when it comes to investment in infrastructure - and transport in particular Wales does very badly. Transport is only partially devolved to Wales - and we don't get funding based on the Barnett formula. This explains why we end up with piss-poor investment in rail and roads. London gets Crossrail and Crossrail 2 (and Corbyn's just re-iterated plans for a Crossrail of the North) and Swansea doesn't even get an electrified railway. Why is the Welsh government expected to fund M4 improvements from borrowing - is the M4 not a key component of Uk infrastructure?

The UK government - by investing pretty much exclusively in London has created a vortex of opportunity that sucks in the youngest Welsh talent (and therefore the healthiest - making fewer demands on the health and social care systems) and gives out the old and frail to retire to Wales, which we are expected to care for from our meagre funds. So, who's subsidising who? The simple truth of the matter is that the UK government has systematically failed to invest in infrastructure at a comparable level to the rest of the UK - a key ingredient for growth and prosperity.

I see nothing whatsoever to suggest that the UKs failure over many decades to invest in Wales will change post-Brexit. In fact, in all probability things will get worse - because we won't even be able to call on the modest funds that have previously been available from the EU.

I’ve changed my mind on this. I was very critical of Corbyn’s position. I thought he was dithering and sniping from the sidelines. Maybe,just maybe, he’s played a blinder. Let the Tories fight like cats in a sack as they discover that it’s not possible to get a cherry picked Brexit. I may well be overestimating him though. He could well be stuck in a 70ies time warp and genuinely believe that the EU threatens the welfare of the people. I hope not.

I’ve changed my mind on this. I was very critical of Corbyn’s position. I thought he was dithering and sniping from the sidelines. Maybe,just maybe, he’s played a blinder. Let the Tories fight like cats in a sack as they discover that it’s not possible to get a cherry picked Brexit. I may well be overestimating him though. He could well be stuck in a 70ies time warp and genuinely believe that the EU threatens the welfare of the people. I hope not.

The irony is if it were not for the position he’s inexplicably found himself in, he and McDonnell would no doubt have been at the forefront of the leave campaign having voted against and strongly spoken out about every European treaty in the last thirty odd years. Along with skinner, hoey, fielding, Mann and all the other far right bastards who face deselection for “propping up the government”.

We have a passionate neoliberal europhile remainer as prime minister pretending to want to leave on one side and a lifelong brexiteer pretending to be a remainer on the other.

It’s madness

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

The irony is if it were not for the position he’s inexplicably found himself in, he and McDonnell would no doubt have been at the forefront of the leave campaign having voted against and strongly spoken out about every European treaty in the last thirty odd years. Along with skinner, hoey, fielding, Mann and all the other far right bastards who face deselection for “propping up the government”.

We have a passionate neoliberal europhile remainer as prime minister pretending to want to leave on one side and a lifelong brexiteer pretending to be a remainer on the other.

I’ve changed my mind on this. I was very critical of Corbyn’s position. I thought he was dithering and sniping from the sidelines. Maybe,just maybe, he’s played a blinder. Let the Tories fight like cats in a sack as they discover that it’s not possible to get a cherry picked Brexit. I may well be overestimating him though. He could well be stuck in a 70ies time warp and genuinely believe that the EU threatens the welfare of the people. I hope not.

You are overestimating him. He views the EU as an impediment to true socialism.