Thursday, December 27, 2007

Akash Squadron Ready!!

Ok, while everyone's still fuming about what Praful Bidwai had to say about DRDO, some shining news for the organisation itself! Chief of Air Staff Fali Major said last afternoon that the IAF now on course to induct its first ever squadron of the Akash surface-to-air missile. According to the couple of reports that appeared today, the air defence exercise report will be reviewed once, after which the squadron will be raised somewhere in either Rajasthan or Punjab. Each squadron will have sixteen launcher batteries.

But everything else aside, and counting the still lumbering tracks of the Trishul and Nag, a big, big congratulations to the Akash team. I don't know if the extra heat of the last two years helped push them to the finish line -- some people argue that it is certainly a factor in things looking up so suddenly and in unanimously. Let's not carried away though -- there's much work ahead for the rest of the IGMDP, and it would be a waste if DRDO just rested on its Akash laurels and danced the afternoon away -- something it has done in the past, with disastrous effects. It should now quickly rescue the Nag and Trishul (the latter is already on the path to being bailed out with foreign help) from oblivion.

In the course of the DRDO series which I did for the Express almost exactly a year ago, I remember how ferociously people in the IAF would react when they were asked about the Akash. This programme's delay was singularly responsible for huge planning delays, massive imports, and critical gaps in air defence cover as a result of inadequate sanction for imports. I spoke to those same people this morning, to ask them how things had changed so suddenly for the programme. They said that both sides decided to cut their losses and focus on trouble-shooting the system, instead of playing the blame game. They took a lot of stuff back to the drawing board, and came back with a clear mind. The problems that they finally sorted out were pretty darn fundamental in the event, which is why solving those with a clean mind helped speed the programme along immeasurably.

There will be teething troubles, but I think the worst is over. Again, a big congratulations! Now for the Akash's first export!

Idiots....Shiv and the guy above....I was there yesterday when Major made that statement....he was crest-fallen, sad, lacked enthusiasm and spirit when he said that, and appeared as if Akash is being thrust upon the IAF, like Arjun is being thrust on the army....poor IAF, they don know what to do...when asked how mny sqaudrons, Major diplomatically said that 'one to begin with'...listen guys dont go overboard praising and congratulating the Akash team, as they are dopes and will remain so

Hmm.. Shiv Aroor..So those tiny sprouts of brain in the upper stories now are blossoming?

Now that it has finally dawned on you that what the DRDO is doing is actually ab-initio development and that user has to remain in the loop and work with the developer iteratively for the product to mature; will this simple fact get seared into your head ?..

Wonder if you have actually realized that this development is very different from shopping around in the global arms bazaar, doing some brochure reading, features comparison, price negotiations, the geo politics and making a buy!..

The defense forces actually have to do some hard work in terms of requirements analysis, scenario planning and atleast have a smattering of product lifecycle knowledge.

None of your articles when you went on the quixotic DRDO bashing had any of those insights (which were available in BRF, which you read I am sure and where you get bashed), nothing at all how the MoD is broke and needs to fixed and what kind of capabilities the army and airforce need to develop to succesfully help incubate and develop products.

Oh, all that would have required serious thought and analysis and biting the hand that feeds you, doesn't it. Far easier to bash the hapless DRDO.Now do you have the cojones to write anything at all on what the Air Force and Army need to develop and something on how with their farce of brochure reading and totally unhelpful attitdue and lack of partnership put big roadblocks in the IGMDP?

Mr. Aroor, a similar series of tests stretching over many days must be done on the Nag missile by the Indian Army. I think it can easily be done, given that Army is not in war-time or state of high alert in years together and given that at any point of time, some tests are always taking place like those of helicopters, Bofors, and Arjun tanks.

Buraidiah, the Trishul system has been declared as being completed by the DRDO and the Ministry of Defence, over a year ago. Since that announcement, no development work has taken place on the Trishul.

It may be noted that Mr. Antony had said that IAF is in a dialogue with DRDO to arive on set testing parameters for the Trishul. Despite that, till now, no dates for user-trials of Trishul have been finalized by the IAF.

i spoke to my cousin in the af who witnessed the trials and he is happy with the akash. theres a way to go before production meets the air force requirements, but it will be done..lets see. but its by no means an insignificat achievement. The iaf wants some 7-8 squadrons over the next few years but they are waiting for the mod budgeting over the proportion of m-sams to others.

so second comment, please go and get some knowledge and information. idiot journos like you are the bane of india. no matter what india does, fools like you will look at majors complexion, his eyelashes and assume things.

i think if you journalists were put through some basic education classes on common sense and logic india would benefit.

the akash team are far better than you fools and good job iaf for not compromising on your requirements, despite these idiot journalists.

there is no "usual suspect" in trishul, i repeat. and the iaf doesnt want the trishul, they want something fancy and autonomous not tied to a radar vehicle, but they might buy a few trishuls if MOD insists coz spyder is delayed.

This mechanism converges the missile towards the target. Spyder is given instructions on the general location and gradient of the target after which it is launched. The in-flight Spyder missile seeks for the target in that direction, predicts its future location and once it comes in its seeker's range, it homes to it.

Trishul's guidance is very jam-proof as the last beam used is a range of 20-40 Ghz. In comparison the seeker head's emissions of the Spyder can be jammed, as besides being of lower strength, it operates at lower frequency.

Buraidiah, the Trishul's 3-beam system is a unique one. No other passively-guided quick reaction SAM has such a system including Russian, US, Chinese or French SAMs.

when a long range SAM becomes sucessfull with its closed radar gudance with the ground radars being in the loop,why cant they implement the same technique for short range SAM trishul? instead of flycatcher ground radar,they can use trishul rajendra radar....may have to start the entire onboard avionics of trishl love all! is the akash tested against a manuevering target? or a slow moving metal drum hung from a parachute? which UAV they might have used? i hope it has not shot down lakshya itself? Any its good news, if AKASH is really a sucess!Kudos to Mr .Prahlada and his team.Its damn pretty hard work!

Anyway big congrats to DRDO, without getting into how, where they got the secrets of "success".

11:37 AM

Anon Mofo,

my entire family is in the services, we have spent more blood for this country then worthless retards like you have done sitting in front of ur call center computers and talking about defence.

get it?

there are 3 direct relations in service rite now, with one just hvaing retired from IAF a year ago. dont fck around with me son, about defence issues, i knw more than u ever will. i have been brought up in an environment which you frauds want to write about, talk about but will never understand.

i was selected for nda as well and broke a leg because of which i myself didnt go into a permanent commission in the army. it required 4 yrs of treatment but i moved on.

dont talk to me about drdo. i know all about how good and how bad they can be.

but when they do good, mofo support them. when they do bad, criticizze them.

you journalists though are the true parasites fo india, you do nothing for anyone and can only make a living by cooking up stories and looking down on others.

even now, i work in sectors which help india via projects in several industrial areas.

we build, we create. fools like you do nothing.

about arjun and lca, even they are attempts to make things, i at least respect for them even as i laigh t how stupid mistakes were made.

but at the end of the day, they have my respect, you journalist bastards dont. got that clear, son?and that is because those fckers at least admit their mistakes, u buggers think ur above the rest of india and better than everyone else.

abt neighbours go there and live there parasite, dont pretend to be an indian coz anyway ur absolutely worthless. all u do is live through others and their achievements.

and ya, about secrets of success, you journalist dont have anything do you? get an education man..i know what went on in test, u dont, its that simple, including new raj 3 radar and the reliability test personally overseen by IAFF.u wuldnt know what all that is if it came and kicked you in ur butt.

u fcks only dream of israel and russia and france. but if u were there theyd kick u out cauze u contribute nothing to te economy.

The slightest of contra opinion than the Ultra Nationalist(yeah they are super patriots), make them so much agitated. Are these DRDO employees? the same conmen who promise MBT(or any systems for that matter) can be built so Cheaply, Indigenously and shortest possible time and then cry of same things money is less raise it X5, critical items are imported, and not to mention development is never ending process stretching into couple of decades to feed themselves to retirement.

Jeet, anger therapy will help you. Not all journalists are worthless, and not all graduates of JNU are likewise, though many of both are.Similarly, if Anon made a snide comment about your cousin remark then you could have been polite and replied back. Why lose your temper? It serves you no well. Your name calling is unecessary and offensive.

Burudiah,

Equally, your comments also deserve censure. In your first statement you claimed that DRDO begged borrow and stole from Akash, anyone who has followed that projects tortured development knows that what you have said is false, unless you know something far more than us, in which case please enlighten us? I have gone through all the comments and Shivs article above. People working together to solve a project does not mean they begged, borrowed or stole anything. The last time I personally saw the Akash project, it had already reached a high level of maturity and what remained to be fixed were integration and production quality issues with the missiles.

Similarly, you accused DRDO of being conmen who have done nothing of worth and who have done nothing about the MBT? Unless you were unaware, perhaps you missed the news about the Arjun having come of age by commentators such as Ajai Shukla, no friend of DRDO or even the MOD referring to it as a BMW vs the T-90. Now, you even accused commentators in this blog of being from DRDO or DRDO employees? Are you one, to insult and accuse an entire organization as you have done, especially when you yourself have zero status details about the system being discussed? In 1998 and in 2002 I was involved with a peer review committee that went over several parts of the project. I found the DRDO people I worked with to be as widely diverse as some of the folks from a US MNC which does DSP chip level work in India for mobile applications, who were also working at my lab with a new system. I didnt find them to be conmen, or that DRDO begged, borrowed or stole anything. The committee was tapped by DRDO to work on the BCC which links the Battery radar to the Group control center. I found the approach to be methodical, and while not overwhelmingly difficult, quite competent in terms of problem definition and what they did to solve it. Two gentlmen from the Army were also visiting at the time. I was however impressed at how they had maintained frequency diversity for each missile so that multiple rounds could be launched while complicating ECM against the launchers. Another gentlemen called the Akash team dopes, an anonymous journalist- I hope he visits DRDL and spends time with the dopes he mentioned to understand that technology is not developed on the spur of the movement. My institution was asked to develop a complete flow diagram for the rear portion of the ramjet while it banks in turbulent flow. We thought it would take 3 months, it took us a year because we were doing it for the first time, and yes, we had to code the relevant CFD codes by ourselves since off the shelf programs wouldnt do. If that makes us dopes, so be it. But I would love to see how anon would handle the issue.

So guys stop fighting amongst yourself and contribute productively. I am sure as Indians we can hope for more from DRDO as we can also recognise that this is a positive step since this a good defensive system for our AF.But theres no need to pass the credit over to some unnamed people because of a misplaced inferiority complex. If anything the credit belongs to the IAF which refused to accept anything less than the functional system and of course the developers for doing a decent job.

Jeet,You showed where you are coming from, by getting personal and name calling. Do I have to reply to you? Live in your fantasy world and suck more of the my Tax money.

VK Subbu,

You brought some insight to the Akash or for that matter DRDO. I more than agree with you about the scientific and engineering talent as am product of the same.

Why did I used "conmen" in describing DRDO is every project launced by DRDO, be it MBT, LCA, Nag etc, is done without proper evaluation of necessry capability, timeline or budject. Take any of the above mentioned project, after 10 years or so we hear the whining #The budjet is inadequate.......you are the one who agreed to complete the said project in that budject. #This is complex project and we are doing for the first time .....who told you it is simple one and stick to the timeline you provided.#the lack of necessary technical knowhow/industrial base... for God sake that is the reason the R&D is there in DRDO..........is it not?

If they had completed even a single "noticible" "indigenous" project without cots and heavy consultancy, I would never had used conmen.

Agree subbu, even though we have demonstrated engineering talent world over we field to demostrate the same through DRDO. Conmen is not necessarily the every p[erson working .....but more to the project managers of the said project, who don't know their own limitations and promise moon with every project.

>>Unless you were unaware, perhaps you missed the news about the Arjun having come of age by commentators such as Ajai Shukla.

Perhaps you missed Ajay shukla clarification here:

#The driver says it's a world class tank. (NOTE: the driver says it... that's a viewpoint. Nitwits who don't understand reportage perhaps have a problem understanding the difference between what a reporter says and a view expressed by someone else).

#The officer in charge of the project says (NOTE: I don't say it... he does) that he thinks the Arjun is better and he hope for a level playing field in the trials.

>>The last time I personally saw the Akash project, it had already reached a high level of maturity and what remained to be fixed were integration and production quality issues with the missiles.

Subbu, All DRDO project are mere integration of mature technologies, which DRDO failing miserably again and again. Arjun and LCA being prime example.

Arjun-->Powerpack-MTU Mature form 1960.TrackS again--- German. FCS--_France again mature technologies. Army want these mature technologies integrated and productionise with quality control. Is it asking too much of our DRDO to indiginse????

Buraidiah, tracks for Arjun and the gunner's main sight are being developed indigenously for that batch of tanks, that shall be ordered after the 124 have been delivered.

Also, as we have discussed before in the context of a "scathing" news report by Mr. Rahul Bedi, the T-90S tanks also have problems in targetting, laser ranging, overheating and improper shells. Thus, its preference over the Arjun is unclear.

Regarding the Tejas, BAE exited the program sometime in 1985 itself. Dassault did not design the Tejas in the actual sense of the term, but gave the Problem Definition (PD) document only (somewhat similar to a 'problem statement'). The later detailed design was done by ADA only. The ejection seat for Tejas has been developed by ARDE), Pune, which has only been certified by Martin-Baker. It is the first of its kind globally and can be 'operated from outside the aircraft, an important consideration when the pilot is trapped or unconscious.'

Only the prototypes developed till date are equipped with Martin-Baker seats. The production variants shall be equipped with indigenous ADRE seats.

Initially, the composite wings were imported from Italy, as India did not have the technology to manufacture the same. But presently, India has mastered all the technologies for composite airframe so much so that it has the highest percentage of composites by weight and surface area. It is greater than even Eurofighter Typhoon as per the data available on the official websites of Typhoon and Tejas respectively.

The software for layout design of aircraft was sold by ADA to Airbus Industrie (marketed by Infosys) which used the software to design the layout of the latest A-380. The Autolay software beat contenders from other 'top' composite manufacturers globally. It may also be remembered that Tejas' Mission Computers, Radar & Display Processors, Avionics LRU's, databus associated control equipment has been developed by ADA only.

As regards the digital FBW for the Tejas, the software developed by the CLAW team taking into account the mathematical laws is entirely Indian. However, USA's Lockheed Martin was chosen as a partner because it had the necessary advanced equipment like real-time ground simulators and advanced rigs. The software for Tejas' flight-control laws were developed by the Indian CLAW team and was integrated and tested on the F-16 Vista simulator.

It may be worthwhile to note that after the Indian team was expelled from Lockheed Martin's facilities after the 1998 nuclear tests, the remaining development, integration, testing and deployment of the FBW software was done in India under the leadership of Dr. Kalam in record time. Presently, all the necessary equipment like advanced simulators and ground rigs is available with ADA also.

As regards the engine and radar, the imported GE and Elta substitutes are temporary only. In the meantime, the Kaveri engine and indigenous MMR are also being developed in parallel.

Thank you.

References :-

1) ARDE developes hi-tech system for LCA (The Indian Express)http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19980918/26150254.html

2) Infosys ties up with ADA for defence software: Exclusive team to market Autolay (The Hindu Bussiness Line)http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2002/06/15/stories/2002061500480700.htm

3)Interview with Mr. Shyam Shetty, head of the National Control Law team. "NAL and LCA-1: Flight Control Laws". National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) Information Pasteboard (25 June – 1 July 2001).http://www.cmmacs.ernet.in/nal/pages/ipjun01.htm

To my previous post I may add the following reference from the Times of India, titled, "Autolay software makes ADA a global leader". It highlights the names of top US companies which ADA beat in the Airbus tender for composite software.

Subbu, All DRDO project are mere integration of mature technologies, which DRDO failing miserably again and again. Arjun and LCA being prime example.

I dont know where you get your information from son, but you need to start working in the industry before coming up with such nonsense! I worked on Akash and if it was mature, please pass me whatever you were smoking?! it was nothing like mature, we did everything in india from the command guidance to warhead design. In fact, the one core technology apart from layout that we borrowed from the sa-6 went so wrong and such a miserable failure that we decided that we better rework it! We had a years delay in just getting the codes working

Arjun-->Powerpack-MTU Mature form 1960.TrackS again--- German. FCS--_France again mature technologies. Army want these mature technologies integrated and productionise with quality control. Is it asking too much of our DRDO to indiginse????

I think Abhiman has already answered you, but seriously, how many years do you have in r&d and systems development? Why would drdo work on making an engine when its not their job? Even the israelis and chinese use imported german engines. I am browsing through my company copy of Defense tech right now and it says that PT-91 made by Malaysia has french FCS, Slovakian gun barrel, imported engine and transmission and tracks and has been sold to Malaysia.

Once again, i ask you do you have any idea of what you are talking about? Do you think these things are lego pieces which you buy off the market and integrate? First, even your list is wrong since you have mixed up development with purchase of matured technologies!Who is Martin? If you mean Martin Marietta, that contract was cancelled, and the team was sent packing. But never mind, I can see you are ranting and your mind is made up.

#The driver says it's a world class tank. (NOTE: the driver says it... that's a viewpoint. Nitwits who don't understand reportage perhaps have a problem understanding the difference between what a reporter says and a view expressed by someone else).

#The officer in charge of the project says (NOTE: I don't say it... he does) that he thinks the Arjun is better and he hope for a level playing field in the trials.

No I didnt miss it. Perhaps you missed Ajai Shuklas article following the above in which he states that the MOD has admitted that the Arjun is a superior tank to the T-90 and that comparative trials between the T-90 and Arjun were called off because the latter tank was superior?

And though I promised myself that I wouldnt reply further, here is one last statement:

If they had completed even a single "noticible" "indigenous" project without cots and heavy consultancy, I would never had used conmen.

I severely doubt you have the professional experience to understand R&d, Buradiah. The company I presently work for has spent 1.2 crores over the past two years reengineering one of our flagship products to use COTS and we have asked and got every consultant we could afford to vet our redesign. If DRDO uses COTS and consultancy, finally someone got brains rather than reinventing the wheel and doing everything inhouse. A year back, Atlas Elektronik almost lost out on a sonar deal for its range of sonar arrays because the customer wanted COTS assemblies which could be quickly upgraded as compared to purpose built ASICS alone. Please understand the subject we are discussing before making such profoundly illogical statements.

Buraidiah, tracks for Arjun and the gunner's main sight are being developed indigenously for that batch of tanks, that shall be ordered after the 124 have been delivered,

Abhiman, I appreciate your patiance and hope even after 30 years of launcing the Arjun project. But, seriously if they have unable to come up with tracks in the last 30 years, what are the chances of coming in few years? Remember that 124 tank order was placed in 2000 and till now only 14 tanks are manufactured... so how long do you think the remaining tanks will be produced...if ever!!

Regarding the Tejas, BAE exited the program sometime in 1985 itself. Dassault did not design the Tejas in the actual sense of the term, but gave the Problem Definition (PD) document only

Yes BAE exited the program in 1985 after providing the P.106 design , from which LCA emerged. Dassault provide the consultancy to finalise the design, based on its extensive experiance with delta design. Have you wondered why the canard delata design (p.106)transfored to pure delta? The P.106 was designed around 404 engine.

The inclinations to shout down ANY semblence of criticism, particularly to the holy cow of DRDO is now legendary. I always wonder, how come Anti- Tank missile is not developed(SINCE 1960!!!) but BMD is succeffly developed in record time by DRDO!!!

Subbu,

You gave very interesting example of PT-91. Belive me I was also thinking of the same.......India licence produced T-72 like poland but never built on it like the polish did. Shame on DRDO that to upgrade our T-72, we have to fall back on the poland, not to mention import of ARV vehicle based on T-72!!!

What is the purpose of ToT that we talk about(SU-30, MIG 21, T-72, T-90 and now MRCA), when we are unable to built upon the technology??

MOD has admitted that the Arjun is a superior tank to the T-90

Yes, the same MOD ordered 1600 T-90 tanks, with Transfer of technology. What do you make out of the above statement. Russia coming up with T-95, don't be surprised there is another round of ToT.Once again, i ask you do you have any idea of what you are talking about? Do you think these things are lego pieces which you buy off the market and integrate?

Agree, Certainly not the logo stuff, But that is the least we expect from DRDO after so many years to properly integrate the f@#king things to work. Is it too much to expect from DRDO after two decades?

Arjun design consultant were Kruss from Germany, heavily based on initial leopard design. Most of the critical system is imported and DRDO was tasked with integration. About productionising the same the less said the better, 14 tanks built in 7 years!!!!

Buradiah, the main sight and tracks project for the Arjun tank were launched in the last 7-8 years ago only, and not 30 years ago since the project's inception. The Arjun tank that was envisaged 30 years ago (110 mm gun with no GPS, no computers and no Laser or thermal imaging), was completely different from the Arjun of today. In my view, it is in its 3rd generation now.DRDO indigenized its technologies gradually over 30 years.

As we discussed earlier, as per a report by Rahul Bedi for CNN-IBN and posted on the comments' section of Mr. Aroor's blog earlier, the T-90S had ALL problems that were "alleged" on the Arjun, namely, overheating, faulty targeting, malfunctioning thermal imagery and gunner's sight, improper shells, etc. Yet, it was procured in many batches since 2000.

DRDO handed 14 tanks to the Army as the army would not accept any more until more confirmatory tests. It was thus not due to any lapse in mass production.As Mr. Aroor's TV special report on the Arjun showed, its mass production unit was already manufacturing the next units of Arjuns demanded by the Army.

Regarding the Tejas, the speculations of P.106 design by BAe are presently unconfirmed rumours. It has been discussed unconclusively on other discussion fora like above-top-secret, bharat-rakshak etc. This may be very similar to the rumours about Pakistan's JF-17 being based on the Soviet cancelled MiG-33 project.

As we discussed before, Dassault specifically only gave the Problem-Definition i.e PD (ref. as per Air Marshall (retd) M D Wollen). It was similar to a "mission statement" only and not the final design as is the case in software projects.As listing each indigenous component of the Tejas and its details are tedious, however the consolidated source for all of them is wikipedia. Some examples are indigenous unique ejection seat (certified by Martin Baker), HUD developed by CSIO, gold-tinted canopy coating (that is available only on USAF F-16's) to provide stealth against IRST, Mission computers, radar controllers, ECM suite, titanium casings, composites etc.

See, even if the speculations about P.106 are true, it does not invalidate its indigenuity, because Dassult provided conceptual studies/proposals only, i.e by way of Problem Definition. The detailed design was done by ADA, starting with 1/16th scale model tested in a wind tunnel in 1990.

It is confirmed that Arjun is a direct variant of Germany's leopard. However, that is limited to the external design only. The Kanchan armour, which is one of the strongest amongst all tanks globally (even the Army has never complained about its strength) has been developed indigenously, as have the turret, suspension, and now most of the internal electronics.

the main sight and tracks project for the Arjun tank were launched in the last 7-8 years ago only, and not 30 years ago since the project's inception.

I did not noticed this gem, In 2000 Army ordered 124 ArjunMBT, Am i to belive that Tracks and Sights R&D started during that time?? What were they smoking all those 30 years.

Oh, there is more to chew,

The Arjun tank that was envisaged 30 years ago (110 mm gun with no GPS, no computers and no Laser or thermal imaging), was completely different from the Arjun of today. In my view, it is in its 3rd generation now

Oh what a co-incidence Leoperd also designed with 105mm gun, but they did not needed 30 years to realise that.

No doubt whether, In your view or DRDO view that arjun is 3rd generation, it may even completes its 7th gen in DRDO lab, Does it matter???

DRDO handed 14 tanks to the Army as the army would not accept any more until more confirmatory testsWonder why all over the world army's are falling over used leoperd 2, basically same design as Arjun.