It's as if each time INDY gets on this track, he conveniently forgets that the US has the ability to print its own money.

Actually you will find me mentioning the federal government's ability to print money on the previous page of this very thread. short attention spans.

Unfortunately, that "flexibility" or ability to print money -- unavailable to state or local governments here or the E.U. nations -- is being misused to buy political time only delaying the inevitable while insuring an all-the-more spectacular and destructive collapse.

The GDP of the entire world couldn't bail us out if we defaulted tomorrow, and it grows larger every day. And yet it isn't enough is it? It's never enough.

No. Greece has suffered from endemic, systematic problems with collecting tax revenue from its citizens for decades (ironic considering your political viewpoint and how you spin the problems with what's going on in that country.) America is not Greece; the IRS is fairly adept at squeezing the working man.

You think Greece's problems are revenue related rather than spending? WOW.
The Greek's may have "endemic, systematic problems with collecting tax revenues from its citizens" but they're rather adroit at collecting tax revenues from German and English citizens now aren't they?

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As far as your US Dollar / Euro comparison, I am not going to bother listing the differences between a vast land of states that has had a shared currency and cultural progression since its inception (gee golly, only one internal war wus a bargain, partner!) and a vast land that has bundled together a variety of states with vastly different systems of governance and fiscal responsibility only recently. Giving up the ability to regulate one's national currency vs. the crazy neighbours' via national-level central bank is a huge issue.

The point was not an exact comparison but the commonality of denial. "I'll quit smoking when things settle down at work." "I'll go on a diet after the holidays." "We'll rein in government spending when the economy is 'better.'"
Democrats and some Republicans are in deep need of a spending intervention.

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Obviously it is the state, or the federal government.

And where do they get it? Barack Obama's Money Tree?

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If you want my honest opinion, we need stereotypically Democratic fiscal policies during the bust and stereotypically Republican fiscal policies during the boom.

Well that's classical Keynesian economics but the spending cutbacks in good times never seem to happen do they?

Well that's classical Keynesian economics but the spending cutbacks in good times never seem to happen do they?

Yeah, that may be the single biggest problem with Keynesianism. It's really tough to implement. On the surface, we can thank decades worth of Democrats and Republicans for being Keynesian during recession and very pro-cyclical during normal times, but it goes beyond that. People don't like having money taken away from them, and their politicians reflect that. It's not a Democratic or Republican flaw. It's everyone's flaw.

Unfortunately, that doesn't take away from the fact that spending cuts now will cause what you call the real economy to shrink and make even servicing that debt, much less addressing it in the long term, much more difficult. We could very quickly go down the route of Spain.

So why should the middle class and poor bear responsibility for this debt crisis?

Is it me or do believe the economy revolves around government spending? More of it benefits the middle class and "stimulates" the economy while less of it is "austerity" and harms the middle class.

I share your concern for the middle class and poor but my prescription isn't "trickle down government." What's my right-wing extremist answer?, well I have a feeling you won't care for it.

Do you share your concern about the middle class and poor when it comes to this president's harmful energy policies? Putting his environmental campaign donors ahead of cheaper energy by delaying the Keystone Pipeline and his EPA's attacks on the coal industry. Yeah, middle class coal workers in Kentucky and W Virginia are quite enamored with this president aren't they? If only they understood how much better they are receiving a check from Obama rather than some coal company right? One of the few economic bright spots during this recession (other than the housing industry around Washington D.C. ) has been the natural gas industry via fracking. Guess what the EPA has in its sights next? Guess what the cumulative effect of all this is on the energy bills of the middle class and poor?

Do you share that concern for the middle class and poor when Republicans are said by this president to "want dirtier air and dirtier water" for simply telling the truth that excessive government regulations are choking small businesses and driving manufacturing from this country? The same goes for promoting a business tax code that would lower rates for businesses and incentivize the return of off-shore profits and capital formation. Just more "tax breaks for the rich" right?

Finally, how do you rectify your concern for the middle class and poor while supporting a president that wants to grant amnesty to illegal aliens and whose Justice Dept actively sues states trying to rein in illegal immigration. Do you not understand that an unchecked flow of unskilled labor depresses wages in those industries and costs Americans jobs? That an unchecked flow of poor illegal immigrants floods the basic government and private services most utilized by the middle class and poor?

What's the best thing that could happen for the middle class and poor in this country? Barack Obama losses his job this year.
And I bet I'm right about you not caring for my answer.

We might as well just name the upper class "The Job Creators," since you don't have to create any jobs to be called a job creator. You just have to have a lot of money sitting in a bank.

A lesson on banking for Philly courtesy of George Bailey in It's A Wonderful Life.

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"No, but you're thinking of this place all wrong, as if I have the money back in a safe. The money's not here. Well, your money's in Joe's house, that's right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Makelin's house, and a hundred others. You're lending them the money to build, and then they're going to pay it back to you as best they can. Now, what're you going to do, foreclose on them?"

Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...

Posts: 19,402

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it fracking that's leading to people's water in their sinks catching on fire? Or something related to the natural gas stuff is doing that? I fail to see exactly how that benefits anyone.

Also, what exactly do the business people who complain about the government regulations consider "excessive" about said regulation?

And in the towns I've lived in, any immigrant populations who live there tend to work in the service industry at fast food places or your local department stores or something. Lower-paying jobs, jobs that aren't exactly "Ooh! Aah!" types of work. It often either seems to be immigrants, or older people, or high school/college kids looking for part-time work doing those jobs. Most people who aren't in one of those three groups aren't working those jobs because they're shooting for something "better". But if they spend all that time looking for that perfect job instead of just bucking up and taking the low-paying, not so glamorous job, then they can't really complain if, while they're looking elsewhere, someone else comes in and takes the job they're not interested in until the time comes when they have no other choice BUT to look into that kind of work.

Is it me or do believe the economy revolves around government spending? More of it benefits the middle class and "stimulates" the economy while less of it is "austerity" and harms the middle class.

I share your concern for the middle class and poor but my prescription isn't "trickle down government." What's my right-wing extremist answer?, well I have a feeling you won't care for it.

Do you share your concern about the middle class and poor when it comes to this president's harmful energy policies? Putting his environmental campaign donors ahead of cheaper energy by delaying the Keystone Pipeline and his EPA's attacks on the coal industry. Yeah, middle class coal workers in Kentucky and W Virginia are quite enamored with this president aren't they? If only they understood how much better they are receiving a check from Obama rather than some coal company right? One of the few economic bright spots during this recession (other than the housing industry around Washington D.C. ) has been the natural gas industry via fracking. Guess what the EPA has in its sights next? Guess what the cumulative effect of all this is on the energy bills of the middle class and poor?

Do you share that concern for the middle class and poor when Republicans are said by this president to "want dirtier air and dirtier water" for simply telling the truth that excessive government regulations are choking small businesses and driving manufacturing from this country? The same goes for promoting a business tax code that would lower rates for businesses and incentivize the return of off-shore profits and capital formation. Just more "tax breaks for the rich" right?

Finally, how do you rectify your concern for the middle class and poor while supporting a president that wants to grant amnesty to illegal aliens and whose Justice Dept actively sues states trying to rein in illegal immigration. Do you not understand that an unchecked flow of unskilled labor depresses wages in those industries and costs Americans jobs? That an unchecked flow of poor illegal immigrants floods the basic government and private services most utilized by the middle class and poor?

What's the best thing that could happen for the middle class and poor in this country? Barack Obama losses his job this year.
And I bet I'm right about you not caring for my answer.

if you think it's environmental regulations that's causing the shrinking of the middle class, then you've truly got all the wrong enemies.

if you're so concerned about DC housing prices, go talk to your GOP lobbyists who are driving up prices making a $450K 1-bedroom in Logan Circle sound like a bargain.