Unhelpful Dr John Draper

I was appalled to hear Dr John Draper a 'suicide expert' engage in blaming the victim with his statement that more men commit suicide because 'men fail to seek support'.

How about the fact that men are much more likely to be the victims of Parental Alienation Dr Draper? And that is just one issue that needs to be addressed, even accepting that men dont seek help so much perhaps it would be pertinent to ask why? Could it possibly be because there is less help available for men, ie less support, less recourse to solutions and less sympathy for their problems? As a victim of Parental Alienation myself I can tell you there is virtually no meaningful support (very often the existence of the phenomenon is even denied, there is no recourse to a solution and there is precious little sympathy - all the doctors want to do is dope you up so you dont feel the pain anymore - that is not a solution that is just 'putting tape over the warning light').

Also the rubbish about more men die from suicide attempts because men use more effective methods such as firearms, etc. You can check the stats yourself, when it comes to killing partners women use firearms just as much as men do. Women are perfectly capable of using 'effective means' when death is the desired result.

The question you have to ask is whether someone who takes half a bottle of sleeping pills and lies on a bed where they know someone will find them in a few hours and take them to hospital is engaging in exactly the same sort of behavior as someone who pushes the muzzle of a double barreled shotgun into the roof of their mouth and pulls both triggers.

Interestingly they often say that 'attempts at suicide' can be 'cries for help'. 'Self harm events' can be cries for help, genuine attempts at suicide cannot be cries for help because they aim to produce death, one side-effect of which is that no help will ever be possible so it is ludicrous to assert that it is attempt to get help.

it may not be a case of blame, but surely it's got to be true that men seek support less than women, partly because of the fucked up view of society that it's manly and strong to hold your emotions in, and also the reasons you mentioned. It is probably harder for men to find support than it is for women, in general, although obviously there are exception. I for one suspect that depression affects almost as many or just as many men as women, despite what the stats say, and that the stats you don't hear about are the ones who keep depression a secret.

Hmm. To be honest, I think most people who take overdoses are cying out for help. Most people take tablets that wouldn't cause any major harm, let alone kill them and most tell someone as soon as they've swallowed all the pills. Who honestly believes that 15 sedatives will cause death? Someone who uses the more 'violent' means of death know that the chances of survival are low. I've took over 10 overdoses and only ONE was a genuine attempt at taking my own life.

How about the fact that men are much more likely to be the victims of Parental Alienation Dr Draper?

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How about it? This is only relevant to any point you're making if men suffering from this commit suicide at some rate higher than the general population or their gender. So, I'm not sure where you're going with this bit, in the absence of any empirical evidence.

Also the rubbish about more men die from suicide attempts because men use more effective methods such as firearms, etc. You can check the stats yourself, when it comes to killing partners women use firearms just as much as men do. Women are perfectly capable of using 'effective means' when death is the desired result.

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Men murder women (and other men, for that matter) at much higher rates than women murder men (or other women, also for that matter)...

Both male and female offenders are more likely to target male victims than female victims.

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So women can commit murder via deadly force, sure. Who ever claimed otherwise? But it looks like it is two, two and a half times as likely for females to be the victim rather than the offender. So, yup, I checked the stats. And they blow your theory out of the water, assuming you're positing some sort of gender equality vis a vis acts of violence. Men are vastly more the violent gender, if a group that commits 88% of all US murders is meaningful.Nature or nuture? Some combination? Dunno. But that's where things sit at present. Being 75% of the victims is a bit more murky, since we don't know if they were trying to kill each other, but only one party succeeded.

And that is just one issue that needs to be addressed, even accepting that men dont seek help so much perhaps it would be pertinent to ask why? Could it possibly be because there is less help available for men, ie less support, less recourse to solutions and less sympathy for their problems?

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Errm, since you're the one trying to make a case, it is up to you answer these questions, not me. Could also be that men are hard-wired to be less interested in "solutions" of the sort the Psychiatric Industrial Complex pushes. But you're the one making the positive case. So let us know what you find.

The question you have to ask is whether someone who takes half a bottle of sleeping pills and lies on a bed where they know someone will find them in a few hours and take them to hospital is engaging in exactly the same sort of behavior as someone who pushes the muzzle of a double barreled shotgun into the roof of their mouth and pulls both triggers.

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I haven't the foggiest idea how this ties into the rest of it. Presumably you're saying men are more likely to favor shotguns, and women sleeping pills? Well, errm, if so, doesn't that support Draper's claim?

Interestingly they often say that 'attempts at suicide' can be 'cries for help'. 'Self harm events' can be cries for help, genuine attempts at suicide cannot be cries for help because they aim to produce death, one side-effect of which is that no help will ever be possible so it is ludicrous to assert that it is attempt to get help.

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Works for me. But, again, where's the tie-in to the male vs. female business? If you're saying men are more likely to make a "genuine attampt" doesn't this ALSO support Draper's claim?

Perhaps I've misunderstood you? Anyway, further clarification is most welcome.