August 31, 2012

In a New York Times op-ed, "Deportation Nation," law professor Daniel Kanstroom explains the horrors of America deporting aliens who are convicted of subsequent crimes.

To be sure, some deportees have been convicted of serious crimes. But most are guilty of drug offenses, or misdemeanors like petty larceny, simple assault, drunken driving.

Kanstroom explains that we must stop deporting them because they often become victims of discrimination in their home countries:

In a study of Latin American deportees who had lived for long periods in the United States (on average, 14 years), the sociologists M. Kathleen Dingeman and Rubén G. Rumbaut found that deportees who had emigrated as children suffered the most. Deportees to El Salvador (a country many had fled during the civil war of the 1980s) encountered discrimination because of their accents, style of dress and California gang-themed tattoos. [Bolding mine]

84 comments:

Amazing that neither of our political parties will jump on this opportunity. Taking the position that we should deport people who cover themselves in gang tattoos and commit assault and drunk driving would appeal to what, 90% or so of voters?

There is a genuine problem wirh deporting people who have lived in the US since childhood and don't speak the language of the place they're deported to. But it sure seems like the way to avoid that is not to keep known criminal illegal immigrants in the US, but rather to decrease the number of people who manage to live in the US illegally for a couple decades before robbing a liquor store and getting deported back to El Salvador right after their prison sentence is done.

Yeah, well, I gotta say I had trouble sleeping last night after reading about the death of 19 year old Carina Saunders. She was snatched off the streets of Bethaney, OK, by a meth head and turned over to Luis Ruiz, a former elementary school teacher turned white slave trader. Ruiz beat and raped Carina, then tied her down to a table and sawed off her limbs, beginning with her feet. Apparently, this crime was just business as usual. Other abducted white girls were routinely forced to watch tortures/murders to intimidate them into becoming prostitutes/slaves. Prior to her own murder, Carina had been forced to watch another girl get murdered by Luis and some creep named Francisco Gomez, but when she refused to cooperate, she was vivisected and murdered, too. One girl dove out of a second story window to avoid becoming victim #3. The depraved killings were recorded on a cell phone.

This evil is a dark cloud spreading up from Mexico. Human trafficking rings, which are widespread on the Mexican border, are pretty much operating in all US cities. And the remains of butchered human beings seem to be turning up all the time. I have no doubt that animals like Ruiz and Gomez get lynched when chased out into the open in Mexico. Only the NYT progressive hivemind could care about their safety. Of course, Carina's sensational murder has just barely percolated up to the national news, with all mention of her killers' background omitted, of course.

What are the odds that one or more of Ruiz's five children will grow up to commit murder? I'd say pretty goddamed good, and with him in jail, these little vipers (or should I say Dreamers?) are being raised clothed, housed and fed by the Good Government.

So we can't deport them because they are illegals. We can't deport them because they came here young and are "used to" America. Now we can't deport them because their home countries won't treat them nice.

Perhaps we should reword that famous Jewish open borders poem that we all were taught in infancy:

"Deportees to El Salvador (a country many had fled during the civil war of the 1980s) encountered discrimination because of their accents, style of dress and California gang-themed tattoos.

While the SWPLs who look to the NYT for moral guidance might not be savvy enough to make the connection, it seems very likely that the deportees being discussed, or at least some of them, are members of MS-13.

That is, they are surely fine, upstanding citizens, not unlike these young men:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkpd1d81dV1qji2ndo1_500.jpg

Somehow, though, I don't think the terrible injustice of this policy is going to keep me awake at night.

Just last month, in my little town in the upper Midwest, a drunken "undocumented alien" ran a stop sign and plowed into another car driven by a local girl, who was on her way to work. She died at the scene. The perp had a couple of previous DUI's - he got 10-15 years in medium security as a guest of the state taxpayers. Don't know if he'll be deported when he's released. Hope so. But, on the off chance that he might face some slight "discrimination" if he's returned to his native country, some may want to let him stay here. Wouldn't want the little dahlin' to suffer, would we?

I don't know how it works in America, but if these criminals were facing deportation from a European country they'd claim asylum, especially the Haitians mentioned in the article, which says returning criminals face indefinite detention in that country.

American liberals now denounce anyone's reluctance to hang around with dangerous and unsociable criminals as evil "discrimination." We must admire the boldness of this extension of political correctness.

Extending this line, it shall now be politically-correct to invert the rational calculus of who should be welcomed-into or excluded-from the community. To fight so-called "discrimination," Kanstroom tells us to count criminal behavior as a virtue, as a reason we must admit someone to our society. Americans, he says, are duty-bound to invite and support foreign criminals to save them from "discrimination" at home.

"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to."

There is a genuine problem wirh deporting people who have lived in the US since childhood and don't speak the language of the place they're deported to.

I have heard this sentiment expressed often. If it is so bad to deport someone to a strange nation whose language they don't speak, then why isn't bad for the millions and millions of non-English speakers to bring themselves and their kids to the good old USA, a nation they don't know whose language they don't speak? At least in the case of the former, the deportees are being sent to a land where the inhabitants are ethnically closer to them and that should help with assimilation over the long term.

If putting someone into a strange environment is a cruel and unusual form of punishment that needs to be stopped, then I am all for it and we should start by stopping the flood of third worlders into the US.

I wonder if this is a sign that the newcomers are not boy scouts after all. If people are getting worked up over the deportation of criminals, then this must mean a not too insignificant portion of the immigrant population are criminals, and thus subject to deportation.

It is sort of like the issue of felons not being able to vote. To most whites, it is a no brainer that convicted felons lose their right to vote. But to certain communities, this takes away too big of a chunk of the electorate, and thus it is inhumane.

By protesting the deportation of criminals, the open borders side is tacitly acknowledging the social ills, aka vibrancy, the newcomers are bringing us.

I don't know much about El Salvador, but a middle-aged Puerto Rican supervisor I had for one of my jobs in college once complained at length about the returned "Nuyoricans", who are apparently not well-liked by native Puerto Ricans precisely because they cause a disproportionate share of the criminal activity there.

"While the SWPLs who look to the NYT for moral guidance might not be savvy enough to make the connection, it seems very likely that the deportees being discussed, or at least some of them, are members of MS-13."

Our left-lib superiors are like and army of quack proctologists shoving foreigners painfully up our backsides while they preach endlessly to us that we must not worry about the pain this inflicts or about paying the exorbitant bills for their largesse with our money and patrimony (yes, sexist word, I know), as they lecture us endlessly that we simply must love submitting to being forcibly - wait for it! - COLONized.

"Banned cyclist Lance Armstrong built an elaborate doping program within his Tour de France teams and hid his corruption from the adoring public through intimidation, lies and sabotage, according to a forthcoming book by his former teammate, Tyler Hamilton.

The "minders" that Joel Kotkin refers to in his latest make money pretending to actually do something about the criminal class of the Mexodus (and Central Americans); in Europe the Roma, and Africans, and Muslims from places like Turkey and Pakistan and Algeria. Nothing effectively happens save a good, easy, and carefree living for the minder class. Teachers, social workers, professors, media pundits, and the like.

HOWEVER, the money consumption this brings in eats away at those with property and something to lose. Including more thoughtful elites who realize the money for the flood of the welfare dependent, semi-criminal to criminal underclass will wipe away anything for their sinecures: save the Whales, Green fantasies, global warming, etc.

As far as the gruesome murders of sex-traffickers and the Cartels are concerned, this is more evidence of "deep culture" vs. a Deep State.

I know Steve loves the theory of a Deep State, but anyone who's worked in a big company knows that incompetence and mutual back-stabbing are the rule, not the exception. Most organizations are barely competent enough to perform their stated purpose once they get big and old enough: GM, Chrysler, Xerox, Kodak, all come to mind.

Deep Culture on the other hand is pretty evident. Celtic, German, and Scandinavian peoples tend to behave over and over again in very predictable ways, as a group. This is true for the Nahuatl descended Indian/Mestizos of Mexico and Central America who have a pattern of dysfunction, ritualized extreme violence, Big Man-ism, human sacrifice, and cannibalism. You can read Bernal del Castillo's account (the only surviving account first-hand by the Conquistadors) off Project Gutenberg. Or your local library ("the Conquest of Mexico.") Even the Nahuatl allies of Cortez routinely practiced ritualized human sacrifice and cannibalism. The attitudes of the Conquistadors was that the glories (and the cities they saw were amazing, more beautiful and larger than the cities of Milan, Genoa, Madrid, Castille, Rome, Algiers, all of which they had seen personally through warfare in the Med) were matched only by the degradation. The situation in Mexico at the time of the Conquest seemed as if a degraded Greece, corrupted by sadistic cannibalism and innate cruelty ruled every person. You had glorious cities with marvelous aqueduct engineering but no wheels, any domestic animals, metal usage, and extreme personal depravity that was extraordinarily ugly.

This pattern has continued for much of Mexico and Central America's history. The religion, the language, have changed but the food, culture, and general attitudes of the people have not.

While I tend to agree with the sentiment that deporting drug-addled socal gangbangers to El Salvador is perfectly fine and not a problem that needs fixing, I agree with the author's point that deportation shouldn't be a one size fits all policy. It does seem somewhat inhumane to me to deport people that have lived here since childhood for minor, non-violent offenses. That said, the author's piece is so slanted that it's hard to get a real picture of what the majority of cases really are. He's clearly cherry picking to put the deportees in the best light possible. It's actually a bit surprising that he even mentioned the El Salvador cases.

Actually, aliens are not subject to deportation due to a DUI conviction because it is not considered a crime of moral turpitude.

I remember reading once about a woman advocating against deportation of an alien who had been convicted of car theft because it just a minor offense. We are dealing with some seriously stupid people here, whose minds have been destroyed by liberalism.

The dilweeds at the NYT are quite literally insane. The "opinions" expressed are quite simply symptoms of deep mental pathology. I am not kidding. To even have to take this stuff seriously on ANY level is to participate in madness.

The dilweeds at the NYT are quite literally insane. The "opinions" expressed are quite simply symptoms of deep mental pathology. I am not kidding. To even have to take this stuff seriously on ANY level is to participate in madness."

They just want to see how powerful prestige actually is. They float ever more outrageous crap, so that when they float something merely out of line, it seems almost reasonable by comparison. They are the modern equivalent of the Marquis du Sade.

The NYT writer is an idiot, but can we agree that deporting and banning long-term legal immigrants for minor violations is wrong?

Define minor violation.

Also, we don't owe any foreigners entrance or residence. We can set the bar higher for them as a precondition of entrance or residence. We are not obliged to let foreigners come here or stay here. We have the right as citizens to kick them out for any reason or even no reason. This is our place not theirs.

"If putting someone into a strange environment is a cruel and unusual form of punishment that needs to be stopped, then I am all for it and we should start by stopping the flood of third worlders into the US."

The NYT writer is an idiot, but can we agree that deporting and banning long-term legal immigrants for minor violations is wrong?

Depends on how Mexico treats our immigrants to their country (and how many of them are there, relative to how many Mexicans are here; i.e., there are fewer Americans in Mexico and they're wealthier, so they should get the royal treatment), and how Mexico treats their poor immigrants (like shit).

I think not even giving a damn about the answers, or not asking these questions, is wrong.

I'm not sure if many people realize it these days, but in England the death penalty was in effect for everything from murder down to pick pocketing at one time. This may have had a great eugenic effect over time in terms of eliminating the criminal element from the gene pool.

Perhaps that's why hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way, rather than say, forming a flash mob.

It shows how effete our society has become when a law professor can be published in the newspaper of record worrying about the welfare of criminal gang members after they are deported. Really, what ought to happen is something like the following:

1) Illegal alien commits a crime.2) He is given the option of being deported to somewhere.3) The government asks the government of that country if they will take him.4) If they take him, the government pays for deportation. If they don't take him, they execute.

"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small. In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to."

YES!!!!

Exactly!!

Nothing pisses me off more than when someone lies to my face and we both know they are lying. It is like they are daring me to do something about it.

"There is a genuine problem wirh deporting people who have lived in the US since childhood and don't speak the language of the place they're deported to.

Why? Their parents managed either to learn English or to get by without knowing it. Why can't the deported be expected to do same in their legal country of citizenship?

Aside from that, most illegals who have been raised here since childhood were still frequently exposed to their native language in the home. Practically all of them, in fact.

"3) The government asks the government of that country if they will take him. 4) If they take him, the government pays for deportation. If they don't take him, they execute."

What's this shit about the home countries of illegal immigrants not taking them back?

We have these things called "airplanes," invented over 100 years ago. We have these other things called "parachutes," invented not long thereafter.

That's a pretty realistic solution in my book. An even more realistic one is to ban immigrants and visitors from any country that won't take their miscreants back. Trade repercussions are also a possibility.

Perhaps but I was reading about this recently and it seems that while the theoretical max. penalty for many crimes was death...in practice it was rarely carried out.

Maybe not for pickpocketing, but there were certainly a lot of executions. According to wikipedia, 7000 executions were carried out between 1770 and 1830, or 116 per year. The population was about 8 million people during that time, on average. That works out to 14.5 executions per million people per year.

To compare that to the US state with the most executions per capita per year, we would compare with Oklahoma which has had 96 executions in 35 years for a population of 3.75 million, or .73 executions per million people per year.

Thus England used to execute 20 times the number of people than Oklahoma does now, around 1800. Even in the most pro penalty state in the US is soft by the standards of England 200 years ago.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/state-execution-rates

In fact, even the world leader for executions, Equatorial Guinea, does not touch merry old England during that time (6.15 executions per million per year).

"For example, it is perfectly possible for Chinese people in most China towns to get by with little or no English, an English-only Chinese would be in deep shit in China."

So prior to their deportation we stick them in a prison language immersion class for six months, and make it sink or swim.

Again, the vast majority of illegal immigrants brought here as young children have had significant exposure to their native language. Hell, in most homes it's blaring from the television 15 hours a day.

"I suspect the violence and aggression comes more from the Southern Euro and African genes."

Then why are Southern European violent crime rates so low measured in comparison to Central American, North American and indeed global levels? Rape, murder, robbery: the incidence of each is approximately equal in southern Europe to the rest of the continent and indeed noticeably lower in, say, Italy, than Great Britain or the Baltic states (referring to homicide specifically). Spain is exactly equal to the German homicide rate.

Latin Europe isn't the same as the squalid - if rustically charming - Balkans.

Tax evasion, public finances, traffic chaos, and 'corner-cutting' are high when juxtaposed to Germanic efficiency and stiffness yet violent crime is about the same, lower in certain instances. Italy, France and Spain each possess, and manufactured, their own aircraft carrier (which even the Chinese couldn't achieve, hence they bought one decommissioned from the Soviet Union) which testifies to the attainment of sufficient engineering expertise and organisation in the indigenous Southern Euro population. The Spaniards are even contracted - by the former 'conservative' Howard Government - to build the Australian Navy's new fleet of destroyers. Italy, a member of the G8 wealthiest countries on the planet, has the eighth richest economy and Spain the twelfth - a greatly disproportionate rank for both considering their middling populousness and aging native demographics, and that they lost directly or indirectly the last world war (both the high-IQ Germans and high-IQ Italians were allied fascists you surely recall). France, Italy and Spain are the three most visited countries in the world by tourists beside America (paying court to the global hegemon) and China (an Asiatic junk market).

Then again, my correction of your fallacious attribution of ogreish impulses in Central and South Americans to Southern European blood accords with the researches into cognitive capacity conducted by the celebrated scientist Dr Richard Lynn (a Northern Irish Anglo-Saxon I believe) and his equally distinguished Finnish colleague Dr. Tatu Vanhanen (such charming names those Finns have!) which found the national IQ average in Italy to be one of the highest in Europe alongside those of Germany and the Netherlands - the Italian IQ surpassing that of Great Britain, France and several other trans-alpine (from the perspective of eternal Rome naturally) nations. (The IQ statistics in question may be gleaned easily by the curious and unprejudiced student from the eminent Doctors' "IQ and Global Inequality", a tabular summary of which is to be found in the appended link). Spain's IQ, of greater pertinence to Central American faculties, is lower than the extremely high Italian one (contemplate the many and varied engines of automotive and technological excellence in Turin, Milan, Bologna, Parma, Verona, etc - the riches and industry of the Po in Europe are rivalled only by those in the Rhineland and the Low Countries, and all three regions,remarkably, being traditionally and actually majority Roman Catholic), yet Spanish crime rates and industrial production are of average Western European degree, higher with regard to modern naval armaments manufacture and increasingly genetics research (Madrid and Barcelona have eclipsed many more northerly cities in glamour and industry).

I´m half Brazilian, with Italian, and Portuguese blood, no black or anything else. Southern Europeans are indeed more murderous than their Northern cousins. My great-grandpa(portuguese) murdered more people you can count. The amount of murders commited by southern europeans, would probably only be compared to scot-irish, back in the day. They are steadily behaving better. And your more likely to get beat up by a southern european, than by a northern european, in any country...

"The NYT writer is an idiot, but can we agree that deporting and banning long-term legal immigrants for minor violations is wrong?"

Depends what you mean by "minor violations." This NYT writer thinks assault and drunk driving are minor violations. I'd guess that the average American hears "minor violations" and thinks of jaywalking and parking tickets. But who do you think will have more influence on the meaning when it's enshrined into law and enforced?

To take a concrete example: several years ago, when John Derbyshire had been in the USA for years but wasn't a citizen yet, I wouldn't have suggested deporting him for a speeding ticket. But multiple reckless driving arrests? Absolutely. Beating someone up? You betcha. A non-citizen is a GUEST. How long would you let a guest stay in your house if he beat you up or ran over your kid's bike in the driveway because he was trashed? Good grief.

"There is a genuine problem wirh deporting people who have lived in the US since childhood and don't speak the language of the place they're deported to."

Ok, fine, we'll compromise. We'll round up and deport all the illegal aliens except the ones who have lived here from such a young age that they only know English. If their parents are being deported, the parents can choose to take the kids with them and educate them in their native language, or to leave them here in the care of friends or family or put them up for adoption. Entirely up to them. Freedom of choice!

I have a feeling this is a particular empty strawman anyway. Illegals are not known for their quick adoption of English, especially in their own homes where their little kids are. And our schools are so anxious to teach them in their own languages that they're likely to learn their native language there even if they don't get it at home. So we're talking about a kid who came here after birth, but soon enough after that he hadn't started learning his language at home yet. So between the ages of 0-2, basically. Then once he got here, he somehow found himself in a home where the people spoke only English, so he couldn't continue to learn his native language. And when he went to school, they didn't put him on the ESL track. How many people are likely to fit that description? Any at all? And we're going to stall the entire effort to kick out millions of criminals because we just can't figure out how to make an exception for this rare case?

"And the remains of butchered human beings seem to be turning up all the time."

From AP, today:

****A woman's torso found floating near the base of the Niagara Falls was likely in the water for up to 10 days, and the victim was murdered, police said Friday, as the discovery of a homicide victim's remains in a waterway made headlines in Canada for the second time in recent weeks.

****The torso belonged to a 20 -something white female. Business as usual for human traffickers? Like Steve likes to say, nobody notices nothing.

Haha! You know that anytime an immigrant gets reported for a crime or an illegal gets reported directly to immigration, 99.9% of the time the reporting is done by co-ethnic immigrants, right? Trust me. I've seen it many times.

Professor once said "if I dropped you in China tomorrow, in a few days, you would learn enough Chinese to get by. In a month, you could hold a conversation."

My Latin and French teacher said something similar: "If you want to learn a foreign language quickly, go live there for six weeks."

People who haven't gained basic everyday fluency in the language of the land they inhabit within a year are either A) well over on the left-hand side of the bell curve and can't learn *any* language, or B) going out of their way not to do so.

Maya said"You know that anytime an immigrant gets reported for a crime or an illegal gets reported directly to immigration."

I highly doubt ALL are reported.

By "reported" do you mean charged or convicted? The US has thousands of law enforcement agencies; they are not all connected through some huge computer system. IIRC beltway sniper Lee Boyd Malvo left fingerprints at an Alabama murder scene. No one ran the prints through ICE.

I mean: When someone picks up the phone and calls INS, it's usually an immigrant reporting an illegally present co-ethnic. The only time I've ever encountered a scenario where this wasn't the case, it was an Israeli setting immigration loose on a Russian. But it was a Russian-speaking Israeli, so... still counts!

Who do you think alerts the authorities to the fact and whereabouts of the undocumented workers? Surely, not WASPs nor SWPLs. Even your standard issue patriotic, gun loving redneck will toss and turn for 10 sleepless nights and decide against it. Blacks tend to be concerned only with themselves.

I tell you: An immigrant's index finger does not hesitate. Especially when the said immigrant considers himself to be a respectable man, and that much lower class young illegal bastard might or might not have smiled at his daughter.

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