"Leaving her alone on the road is same as murder."

Comments

I didn't say forgive. Reread broski. I said give her a chance for redemption. Like Lee was allowed. She saved Lee from Danny and Andy, shot the bandits to save the others even when she could've escaped herself

Since when does humanity involve forgiving a cruel person for the pain they endured on you and your friends?
Lilly's not a selfish … morecoward? What part made you think she was brave & selfless?
I wouldn't call hiding in the balcony, out of the bandits view risking her life, her life wasn't threatened to begin with.

I personally didn't care for Lilly.
To me she was all about survival of the fittest, with little compassion for others.
And after she murdered Carly, that's when I'd had it with her, and left her on the side of the road.

You're acting like hating someone for the horrible things they did to you and wanting them dead(but you don't kill them) is losing your humanity. Besides, it's not in Lilly's character to say sorry, you've seen how cold & heartless she is. I'm saying Clementine shouldn't forgive that bitch and should just treat her like crap and that makes her lose her humanity???

Since when does humanity involve forgiving a cruel person for the pain they endured on you and your friends?
Since...Jesus? … moreForgiving those who seek penance for their past wrong-doings is pretty commonly associated with having a strong sense of humanity.
That being said, forgiveness for such a betrayal takes time. No one is saying that Lilly should be instantly forgiven the moment she says "sorry." But Clem should give her a chance to show that she's changed for the better, not just execute her on sight.

As I said before, Lee had his reasons, Lilly didn't. Lee killed a person by accident and he saves a little girl, Lilly killed an innocent person and left that little girl to die along with others and she didn't seem sad about it. She saved you from Danny & Andy but that's optional and where could she have escaped to?

I didn't say forgive. Reread broski. I said give her a chance for redemption. Like Lee was allowed. She saved Lee from Danny and Andy, shot the bandits to save the others even when she could've escaped herself

Look man, no point responding if you're going to get annoyed. I'm sorry for the late response but I was busy.

I'm talking about her shouting something like "Walker", "Lee, get your head down so I can get a shot", "Mark, Carley/Doug, help Lee", "Dad stay back" or anything relating to the situation then we as the gamer knows that she was alert and was trying to do something as she is the watchmen.

What would throwing the rifle to Larry & Mark accomplish? Well for one thing they're already on ground so they can run up to the zombie and shoot it, Mark missed that stationary bird but I highly doubt that he would miss a large target up close.

Jesus Christ, man, we're still on this?
We didn't "hear" anything from her? What, is aiming a rifle supposed to make a sound? I'm… more not saying that that's definitely what she was doing, I'm just saying that we can't just dismiss the whole thing as "Lilly didn't do anything" when we didn't see everything.
What the hell would throwing her rifle to Larry or Mark help accomplish? You think Larry or Mark would have had a better shot than she would? I don't know about Larry but Mark missed a stationary bird on a tree after a good while of aiming. Besides, like I said before, that was no place for a long-ranged weapon. If it were, Carley wouldn't have had to walk right up to the walker to shoot it.

I will actually be happy if it is Lily or Kenny because I thought it was brave to kill Carley in front of the whole group but it's a zombie apocalypse, what do I know, Lily would make the most sense...

I will actually be happy if it is Lily or Kenny because I thought it was brave to kill Carley in front of the whole group but it's a zombie apocalypse, what do I know, Lily would make the most sense...

Clearly Lilly thought she could get far or she wouldn't have thought it was a good reason to steal the RV. As far as being on her own, don't make the assumption that she couldn't have found another group just as Clementine did here in the beginning of Season 2 when she was on her own. Lilly or Christa really are the best options at this point, possibly Kenny. But, I doubt it.

Oh no that wasn't annoyance, just an exaggerated observation on how long this has gone on for. This has been one of the more thought-provoking discussions I've had on here. I welcome a continuation. I was just being facetious.

Anyway, they obviously didn't include all of the audio that would have been in that scene. For instance I doubt Kenny and Duck would have been as quiet as they were after seeing Katjaa get attacked. There was not a peep from them at all during the attack. I get why you might think that she wasn't doing anything and that may be the case, but in my opinion, we didn't see enough to draw a conclusion.

Look man, no point responding if you're going to get annoyed. I'm sorry for the late response but I was busy.
I'm talking about h… moreer shouting something like "Walker", "Lee, get your head down so I can get a shot", "Mark, Carley/Doug, help Lee", "Dad stay back" or anything relating to the situation then we as the gamer knows that she was alert and was trying to do something as she is the watchmen.
What would throwing the rifle to Larry & Mark accomplish? Well for one thing they're already on ground so they can run up to the zombie and shoot it, Mark missed that stationary bird but I highly doubt that he would miss a large target up close.

It's fair to treat Lilly with disdain upon being reunited with her and continue to do so until she redeems herself. And your Clem might not have seen as much of her good side, so your Clem might be especially resistant to forgiving Lilly. But she should still leave open the possibility of Lilly redeeming herself instead of outright rejecting it.

Kenny did some fucked up things in my play through but I still wanted to give him the chance to redeem himself, which he eventually did. And given how quickly easily Clem forgave Ben for leaving her for the walkers at the beginning of Episode 4, I think she would be able to forgive Lilly for something she did over a year ago.

You're acting like hating someone for the horrible things they did to you and wanting them dead(but you don't kill them) is losing y… moreour humanity. Besides, it's not in Lilly's character to say sorry, you've seen how cold & heartless she is. I'm saying Clementine shouldn't forgive that bitch and should just treat her like crap and that makes her lose her humanity???

I agree 100% with you.
Lee showed remorse for what happened to the jackass sleeping with his wife.
Kenny showed remorse after killing Larry, and excepts responsibility for it.
If Lee mentions that Kenny feels like he killed Herschel's son, Kenny reveals himself to be heart broken over what happen to the boy, and reveals that it's because of that he believes Duck was bitten.
And if Ben survived Crawford, Kenny goes down to try to save him, even though Ben inadvertently caused the deaths of his wife and child.

Lilly however, showed absolutely no remorse for killing Carly.
Even before that, when Larry wanted to kill a supposedly bitten Duck, Lilly, although she didn't go along with it, she also didn't show any objections either.
And when Lee Kenny and Mark brought Ben and his injured friend back to the mortar inn, Lilly instantly wanted to get rid of them, not caring that one of them was severely injured.

It was for those reasons, I had Lee leave her ass on the side of the road.
That kind of person is dangerous, and if they've killed before, they won't hesitate to kill again.

Lilly's reaction was more like "Shit, I shot the wrong person", regardless she still intended to kill, if she was remorseful she cou… moreld've said something like "I didn't mean to" plus she seemed to change her reaction as if she didn't give a damn what she's done when she pulled a Grand Theft Auto on the RV. Plus, was she remorseful with Carley? Lee killed a guy in a fight by accident and he had a reason to be pissed off plus we got to know him along the way and the way he cared for a little girl that he just met, in the time we got to know Lilly she was nothing but a selfish, unreasonable, angry, lazy, loud mouthed hypocrite that didn't give a damn about anyone but herself and her douche-bag bully of a dad who made a bad decision and then goes onto to murder the sweetest, kindest, useful member of the group that cared about others including her with no reason and if that's not bad enough, she ends up leaving the group for dead w… [view original content]

I for one really hope it's not Kenny. Lee saw him die (at least when he sacrificed himself for Ben), that's why when Christa and Omi… mored ask him about Kenny, he just shakes his head. LEE SAW HIM GET EATEN. So it would be disgusting fan service if they bring him back with some half-assed explanation as an excuse. Maybe there could be a chance of him surviving if you got the scene with him in the hole saving Christa, but then they would have to have different characters appearing for different players according to their past choices in the first game, and I don't think they are going to take the time to create something like that. Lilly is a much more obvious answer, since the outcome for her is the same for all players.

You have no definitive proof Lee ever saw Kenny die, and if I recall correctly there is an option to suggest to Omid and Christa that Kenny may have lived if he tries to save Ben. Telltale never showed him die for a reason.

I agree 100% with you.
Lee showed remorse for what happened to the jackass sleeping with his wife.
Kenny showed remorse after kill… moreing Larry, and excepts responsibility for it.
If Lee mentions that Kenny feels like he killed Herschel's son, Kenny reveals himself to be heart broken over what happen to the boy, and reveals that it's because of that he believes Duck was bitten.
And if Ben survived Crawford, Kenny goes down to try to save him, even though Ben inadvertently caused the deaths of his wife and child.
Lilly however, showed absolutely no remorse for killing Carly.
Even before that, when Larry wanted to kill a supposedly bitten Duck, Lilly, although she didn't go along with it, she also didn't show any objections either.
And when Lee Kenny and Mark brought Ben and his injured friend back to the mortar inn, Lilly instantly wanted to get rid of them, not caring that one of them was severely injured.
It was for t… [view original content]

We don't know if Lee meant to kill the senator. I'm saying just because Lee had his "reasons" it doesn't make murder acceptable. Same with Lilly or anyone. If she truly wanted to, she could've left from the back of the Motor Inn. It didn't seem like the bandits surrounded them. Her saving Lee from Danny and Andy is optional yes, it counts. That's like you're saying no optional behaviour in the story changes a character when it does

As I said before, Lee had his reasons, Lilly didn't. Lee killed a person by accident and he saves a little girl, Lilly killed an inn… moreocent person and left that little girl to die along with others and she didn't seem sad about it. She saved you from Danny & Andy but that's optional and where could she have escaped to?

My Clem?
We weren't controlling Clem at that time so me and you had the same Clem. This is a woman that killed an innocent person and if nice to her, leaves you, your friends and your guardian for dead. I know this is a choice based game but there are some choices that shouldn't be.

Kenny did some messed up stuff but they're nothing compared to what Lilly's done, he redeems himself no matter what and didn't need to be given the option like you're suggesting with Lilly.

Ben is a useless coward, Clem knows that and she also knows that he's not a bad guy and knows that he cares for her, Ben is not an aggressive, cold hearted bully in which Lilly is and acted in Clems eyes, Ben is kind hearted but he's stupid & cowardly, Ben didn't kill someone just for the heck of it, he stuck around to help the group and wasn't horrible to Lee or anyone else for that matter either, and that's why Clem easily forgave him, Lilly's situation is different from his and should not be forgiven, do you see her forgiving the St Johns or The Stranger if they were alive?

It's fair to treat Lilly with disdain upon being reunited with her and continue to do so until she redeems herself. And your Clem mi… moreght not have seen as much of her good side, so your Clem might be especially resistant to forgiving Lilly. But she should still leave open the possibility of Lilly redeeming herself instead of outright rejecting it.
Kenny did some fucked up things in my play through but I still wanted to give him the chance to redeem himself, which he eventually did. And given how quickly easily Clem forgave Ben for leaving her for the walkers at the beginning of Episode 4, I think she would be able to forgive Lilly for something she did over a year ago.

Lee stated that he killed the senator by accident. Lilly could've left but she was determined to stay at the motel no matter what and she needed the group, they were the ones that kept her alive, what are the chances of her finding another group that she can boss to find her food? Besides, it was her arrogance that kept the group at the motel to begin with, she knew the bandits were in the woods and new Macon ran out of supplies but she still stayed. If optional counts then she stood there and was willing to let Andy kill me with Clementine witnessing it. You're right, optional behaviour in the story changes a character but that only works with Kenny, Lilly's the same no matter what whether you're a dick to her or nice, she'll pull the same stunts.

We don't know if Lee meant to kill the senator. I'm saying just because Lee had his "reasons" it doesn't make murder acceptable. Sam… moree with Lilly or anyone. If she truly wanted to, she could've left from the back of the Motor Inn. It didn't seem like the bandits surrounded them. Her saving Lee from Danny and Andy is optional yes, it counts. That's like you're saying no optional behaviour in the story changes a character when it does

I don't know where Kenny or Duck were, Katjaa did run off after she was freed by Lee so she most likely ran to them but Lilly was the watchmen whose role was to protect the camp from danger, she was the leader and was also armed and was closer to the incident than Kenny & Duck and someone like that was absent from a dangerous crisis? we didn't hear any sound from her which leads me to believe that she was daydreaming while all that was happening.

Oh no that wasn't annoyance, just an exaggerated observation on how long this has gone on for. This has been one of the more thought… more-provoking discussions I've had on here. I welcome a continuation. I was just being facetious.
Anyway, they obviously didn't include all of the audio that would have been in that scene. For instance I doubt Kenny and Duck would have been as quiet as they were after seeing Katjaa get attacked. There was not a peep from them at all during the attack. I get why you might think that she wasn't doing anything and that may be the case, but in my opinion, we didn't see enough to draw a conclusion.

I'm betting that your Clem didn't see Lilly save Lee from Andy St. John (my Clem didn't see it either; I'm just saying that some Clems did). Some Clems might not have seen Lilly steal the RV, so as far as those Clem are concerned, Lilly's only act of wrong-doing was killing Carley in a fit of rage/paranoia or accidentally killing Doug. Both are bad, no one is disputing that, but they are forgivable.

Kenny was given the option of redeeming himself, simply by being allowed to stay in the group. Imagine if Kenny had left the group as soon as he refuses to help Lee at the pharmacy or when he refuses to go with Lee to save Clem: he would have had no chance to redeem himself and I bet many people would hate him almost as much as they do Lilly.

Lilly isn't an aggressive cold-hearted bitch in every Clementine's eyes. Seriously, try to look for a pro-Lilly playthrough on Youtube. She treats Lee a lot more softly if you're nice to her, which some people were (in wasn't btw). Lilly didn't kill someone for the heck of it either. She killed because she was consumed by anger. Ben left Clementine because he was consumed by fear.

The Stranger and The St. Johns are very different from Lilly's case since their bad acts were prolonged, calculated moves intended to directly hurt the people Clem cares about. Lilly's situation is more like if the girl who tried to rob her in the beginning of Season 2. And I think if she had survived and met up with Clem later, she would be able to forgive the girl for what she did. Not easily, but I think she would.

My Clem?
We weren't controlling Clem at that time so me and you had the same Clem. This is a woman that killed an innocent person a… morend if nice to her, leaves you, your friends and your guardian for dead. I know this is a choice based game but there are some choices that shouldn't be.
Kenny did some messed up stuff but they're nothing compared to what Lilly's done, he redeems himself no matter what and didn't need to be given the option like you're suggesting with Lilly.
Ben is a useless coward, Clem knows that and she also knows that he's not a bad guy and knows that he cares for her, Ben is not an aggressive, cold hearted bully in which Lilly is and acted in Clems eyes, Ben is kind hearted but he's stupid & cowardly, Ben didn't kill someone just for the heck of it, he stuck around to help the group and wasn't horrible to Lee or anyone else for that matter either, and that's why Clem easily forgave him, Lilly's situa… [view original content]

You're speaking as though Kenny were clear on the other side of the lot. He was sitting right next to the RV Lilly was on. Duck wasn't that far either. If either of them shouted anything, were should have heard them. But we heard nothing. No "KAT!" no "MOM!" no "WALKER!" no "JESUS CHRIST!" Nothing. So either they didn't react to seeing their wife/mom getting attacked and almost eaten by a zombie. Or not all the sounds were there.

I don't know where Kenny or Duck were, Katjaa did run off after she was freed by Lee so she most likely ran to them but Lilly was th… moree watchmen whose role was to protect the camp from danger, she was the leader and was also armed and was closer to the incident than Kenny & Duck and someone like that was absent from a dangerous crisis? we didn't hear any sound from her which leads me to believe that she was daydreaming while all that was happening.

And in some playthroughs, she saw Lilly holding back and let Andy St John kill Lee. She didn't need to see Lilly stealing the RV, she knows it was her. In her eyes, she witnessed a raging lunatic kill a sweet, kind useful member of the group and in another she tried to kill Ben who Clementine is close with, both on purpose and tried justifying it, how can that be forgivable?

There was no option to kick Kenny out. Kenny already did those things but he doesn't run off and leave the group for dead or kill an innocent person, in some gameplays, Kenny just stood there and watch Lee trying to get the door off himself, messed up yes, but not as bad as Lilly's action, Kenny didn't put you in that position. Another messed up thing is that he refused to help Lee search for Clem but that's it, no matter what you did to him he decided to wait until you came back bitten or not unlike Lilly who chose to run out on the group with the only transport vehicle when the chance occurred, in the end Kenny does the right thing in helping put a scared teen out of his misery or save a woman he just met at the risk of him being devoured alive and he didn't need to be given that chance, he does it anyway.

Why is that some people think Lilly's all good to you when you're pro-Lilly?
Even if she was soft, Clem would come up with the same conclusion she has with the St Johns & The Stranger which is a lying manipulator that pretended to care only to show their true colors. She did kill someone for the heck of it, why does she target and harass Carley when she doesn't do so with Doug?

Lilly's case is much worse than the Stranger or the St Johns because she hurt her own group, people she knew that consisted of people Clementine cared for, prolonged or not. Why would Clem forgive the girl that killed Omid? that bitch was taunting and robbing a little girl even going as low to try and take her hat, like Lilly she shouldn't have done something that low to begin with. I doubt she stab someone as kind as Omid in the back by forgiving her.

I'm betting that your Clem didn't see Lilly save Lee from Andy St. John (my Clem didn't see it either; I'm just saying that some Cle… morems did). Some Clems might not have seen Lilly steal the RV, so as far as those Clem are concerned, Lilly's only act of wrong-doing was killing Carley in a fit of rage/paranoia or accidentally killing Doug. Both are bad, no one is disputing that, but they are forgivable.
Kenny was given the option of redeeming himself, simply by being allowed to stay in the group. Imagine if Kenny had left the group as soon as he refuses to help Lee at the pharmacy or when he refuses to go with Lee to save Clem: he would have had no chance to redeem himself and I bet many people would hate him almost as much as they do Lilly.
Lilly isn't an aggressive cold-hearted bitch in every Clementine's eyes. Seriously, try to look for a pro-Lilly playthrough on Youtube. She treats Lee a lot more softly if you're nice to… [view original content]

Why would they shout "KAT" or "MOM" when Katjaa broke away from that Zombie?
What were they supposed to do? Shout anyway to make their presence heard?
Either Lilly was doing nothing or she heard nothing which makes her a bad watch.

You're speaking as though Kenny were clear on the other side of the lot. He was sitting right next to the RV Lilly was on. Duck wasn… more't that far either. If either of them shouted anything, were should have heard them. But we heard nothing. No "KAT!" no "MOM!" no "WALKER!" no "JESUS CHRIST!" Nothing. So either they didn't react to seeing their wife/mom getting attacked and almost eaten by a zombie. Or not all the sounds were there.

No, I meant in some cases, Clem saw Lee leave Lilly on the side of the road and thus never saw Lilly steal the RV.

In her eyes, she witnessed a raging lunatic kill a sweet, kind useful member of the group and in another she tried to kill Ben who Clementine is close with, both on purpose and tried justifying it, how can that be forgivable?

Because Clementine thinks that she killed Lee: a similarly sweet, kind and useful member of the group. In Clem's mind, she committed an irrational act of betrayal by running away from Lee, someone she cared deeply about and he died because of it. And that will make her sympathetic to what Lilly did. (Note: I'm not saying that this is what I believe happened; I'm saying that this is what Clem believes.)

Also, in Ben's case, Clem saw Kenny try to beat the shit out of Ben, demand that we leave him, then brag about Lee dropping Ben right in front of her. If she can forgive Kenny for that as quickly and easily as she seemed to, she can forgive Lilly for what she did.

in the end Kenny does the right thing in helping put a scared teen out of his misery or save a woman he just met at the risk of him being devoured alive and he didn't need to be given that chance, he does it anyway.

So if Lilly were to come back next episode, repentant of what she did, and perform a similar act as Kenny. Say, she risks her life to save Luke or Sarah, would you say that she would be redeemed?

Even if she was soft, Clem would come up with the same conclusion she has with the St Johns & The Stranger which is a lying manipulator that pretended to care only to show their true colors.

Why would she come to have conclusion? The St. Johns and The Stranger had specific plans in mind that forced them to be nice and hospitable to lull others into a false sense of security. What does Lilly have to gain by being nice to Lee? She's already the de facto leader and handles all of the food rations.

She did kill someone for the heck of it, why does she target and harass Carley when she doesn't do so with Doug?

Because she saw Carley and Ben together and because Doug is way too meek to pull something like that off.

Lilly's case is much worse than the Stranger or the St Johns because she hurt her own group, people she knew that consisted of people Clementine cared for, prolonged or not.

The St. Johns were cannibalistic serial-killers and the Stranger tried to kill Lee and take Clem away. You don't think Clem would find those more abhorrent than Lilly killing someone in a fit of rage?

And in some playthroughs, she saw Lilly holding back and let Andy St John kill Lee. She didn't need to see Lilly stealing the RV, sh… moree knows it was her. In her eyes, she witnessed a raging lunatic kill a sweet, kind useful member of the group and in another she tried to kill Ben who Clementine is close with, both on purpose and tried justifying it, how can that be forgivable?
There was no option to kick Kenny out. Kenny already did those things but he doesn't run off and leave the group for dead or kill an innocent person, in some gameplays, Kenny just stood there and watch Lee trying to get the door off himself, messed up yes, but not as bad as Lilly's action, Kenny didn't put you in that position. Another messed up thing is that he refused to help Lee search for Clem but that's it, no matter what you did to him he decided to wait until you came back bitten or not unlike Lilly who chose to run out on the group with the only… [view original content]

Katjaa didn't break away immediately. They would have shouted those things as soon as they heard her scream. Does the fact that they didn't mean that they didn't respond to the threat or weren't concerned about Katjaa? No. Just like the fact that you didn't hear Lilly also does not mean that she did not respond to the threat.

Why would they shout "KAT" or "MOM" when Katjaa broke away from that Zombie?
What were they supposed to do? Shout anyway to make their presence heard?
Either Lilly was doing nothing or she heard nothing which makes her a bad watch.

She broke away after a couple of seconds and Kenny was behind the RV. I don't know what they were doing but I'm sure Katjaa ran to them after breaking free. Regardless, their job did not involve being alert for any danger now did it. She needed to shout to give orders, if others responded to a threat, why didn't the watchmen?

Katjaa didn't break away immediately. They would have shouted those things as soon as they heard her scream. Does the fact that they… more didn't mean that they didn't respond to the threat or weren't concerned about Katjaa? No. Just like the fact that you didn't hear Lilly also does not mean that she did not respond to the threat.

No, I meant in some cases, Clem saw Lee leave Lilly on the side of the road and thus never saw Lilly steal the RV.

And in most cases, Lilly left her for dead as majority of the gamers made the decision to bring that bitch with them.

Because Clementine thinks that she killed Lee: a similarly sweet, kind and useful member of the group. In Clem's mind, she committed an irrational act of betrayal by running away from Lee, someone she cared deeply about and he died because of it. And that will make her sympathetic to what Lilly did. (Note: I'm not saying that this is what I believe happened; I'm saying that this is what Clem believes.)

What?
You think Clem will compare her looking for her parents to Lilly murdering an innocent person?
In Clem's mind the last thing she wanted to do is hurt Lee but in Lilly's mind the first thing she wanted to do is hurt Carley. Clem wanted to find her parents, I don't think she knew she was putting Lee or anyone else in danger, she believed the Stranger was a good man. Lilly pulled out her gun with the intent to kill. How on earth did you get to the idea that is what she believes in?

I'm sure Clem's smart enough to tell the difference between the two. She knows she cared for Lee, does she think Lilly cared for Carley?

Also, in Ben's case, Clem saw Kenny try to beat the shit out of Ben, demand that we leave him, then brag about Lee dropping Ben right in front of her. If she can forgive Kenny for that as quickly and easily as she seemed to, she can forgive Lilly for what she did.

Clem knows that Katjaa & Duck were the world to Kenny and knows why he acted the way he did, he had his reasons but he didn't go through with killing or kicking out Ben. And Kenny was not the one that dropped Ben, I'm sure Lee explained to her why he dropped Ben, why should she forgive Kenny when he never did anything to begin with? And again, a guy happy that a person that caused him pain is dead(which can be changeable) is different from a psycho bitch murdering a person in cold blood(not changeable).

So if Lilly were to come back next episode, repentant of what she did, and perform a similar act as Kenny. Say, she risks her life to save Luke or Sarah, would you say that she would be redeemed?

And she'll be joined by the St Johns and the Stranger and save humanity. Unlikely scenario that she would risk her life for others. If you're talking about a chance at redemption, she already had one, if you take her with you on the RV, she could've redeemed herself somehow but instead, she saw an opportunity to steal and leave them stranded.

Why would she come to have conclusion? The St. Johns and The Stranger had specific plans in mind that forced them to be nice and hospitable to lull others into a false sense of security. What does Lilly have to gain by being nice to Lee? She's already the de facto leader and handles all of the food rations.

Does they need to have plans for them to be bad?

Because she saw Carley and Ben together and because Doug is way too meek to pull something like that off.

Again What?!?!?!?!
We saw both Carley & Doug with Ben together twice in Episode 2 when they went back to the motel with the muffins and when they went back to the farm to rescue the group.
Where did that come from?

The St. Johns were cannibalistic serial-killers and the Stranger tried to kill Lee and take Clem away. You don't think Clem would find those more abhorrent than Lilly killing someone in a fit of rage?

They were strangers that hardly knew you and wanted to hurt you, Lilly was someone you knew. Forget about the style of actions they did, which is bad, a person you don't know tries hurts you or someone you do know and is supposed to have your back but didn't hurts you?

She didn't need to see Lilly stealing the RV, she knows it was her.
No, I meant in some cases, Clem saw Lee leave Lilly on t… morehe side of the road and thus never saw Lilly steal the RV.
In her eyes, she witnessed a raging lunatic kill a sweet, kind useful member of the group and in another she tried to kill Ben who Clementine is close with, both on purpose and tried justifying it, how can that be forgivable?
Because Clementine thinks that she killed Lee: a similarly sweet, kind and useful member of the group. In Clem's mind, she committed an irrational act of betrayal by running away from Lee, someone she cared deeply about and he died because of it. And that will make her sympathetic to what Lilly did. (Note: I'm not saying that this is what I believe happened; I'm saying that this is what Clem believes.)
Also, in Ben's case, Clem saw Kenny try to beat the shit out of Ben, demand that we leave him, then … [view original content]

Weird how you want it to be Lilly with your username. Regardless was this worth ANOTHER thread. Could you not have just added your theory to the millions of other threads about this exact same thing. I could maybe understand more if you had a much larger theory or something that hasn't been said before, but all you presented was one piece of dialogue, saying it MIGHT mean something. Admittedly it did spark a discussion but still there are enough of , "It's this person" threads out there and this one will slowly sink into obscurity in a few days. Then another one will be made, and the cycle will continue.

What orders would Lilly have needed to shout? Mark/Larry were already responding to the threat because Lee immediately calls out for their axe (interesting that he didn't call out for either Lilly's or Carley's guns). There was nothing important for her to say there.

She broke away after a couple of seconds and Kenny was behind the RV. I don't know what they were doing but I'm sure Katjaa ran to t… morehem after breaking free. Regardless, their job did not involve being alert for any danger now did it. She needed to shout to give orders, if others responded to a threat, why didn't the watchmen?

Wrong: She narrowed it down to Ben (which she turns out to be right) and was using rational logic; Kenny and Katjaa wouldn't do it, especially since Kenny argue about moving away and she knows his family isn't one to be negotiating with bandits. Doug wouldn't do such a thing unless a fellow group member was in danger. Ben was the only one who made logical sense. She handled the situation poorly, which ended with Doug dead, but she knew who she was accusing.

You're not really seeing the problem here are you? Legit people are getting thumbs down because they're not kissing Kenny's ass or h… moreaving a different opinion on a totally different character that's not Kenny.
I'm not going into this again. If you wish to continue this convosation, please take it to a PM with me.

Yes, no remorse. After she shot Carley, what was the first thing she did? Say how sorry she was? No, she said that Carley DESERVED it, and that she didn't do anything wrong. At the last second, she betrayed Lee to try and save herself.

I sincerely hope that she died.

That being said, in the matter of choice, you're partially right. Clem should have the choice to forgive Lilly. Personally, I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive her, but it should be an option.

And in most cases, Lilly left her for dead as majority of the gamers made the decision to bring that bitch with them.

IIRC, it was a 45/55 split. Meaning that for a little less than half the gamers out there, Clem never saw Lilly steal the RV. That's a significant portion of people who played the game.

What? You think Clem will compare her looking for her parents to Lilly murdering an innocent person? In Clem's mind the last thing she wanted to do is hurt Lee but in Lilly's mind the first thing she wanted to do is hurt Carley. Clem wanted to find her parents, I don't think she knew she was putting Lee or anyone else in danger, she believed the Stranger was a good man. Lilly pulled out her gun with the intent to kill. How on earth did you get to the idea that is what she believes in?

From her conversation with Luke in the first episode of Season 2. She expresses guilt that her past mistakes have gotten good people killed. If Lilly comes back and expresses a similar sentiment, I think it'll resonate with Clem. Yes, there are differences in the scenarios. I'm not saying that they're exactly the same and I'm not saying that Clem thinks they are exactly the same. All I'm saying is that the amount of guilt that Clem feels for what she did will make her more empathetic to a similarly guilt-ridden Lilly.

Clem knows that Katjaa & Duck were the world to Kenny and knows why he acted the way he did, he had his reasons but he didn't go through with killing or kicking out Ben. And Kenny was not the one that dropped Ben, I'm sure Lee explained to her why he dropped Ben, why should she forgive Kenny when he never did anything to begin with? And again, a guy happy that a person that caused him pain is dead(which can be changeable) is different from a psycho bitch murdering a person in cold blood(not changeable).

You don't think he would have killed Ben or left him behind if he had the chance? Back in the attic, Kenny himself says that he was glad that Lee was the one who made the decision and not him, implying that he would have dropped Ben. And I don't know about you, someone gloating right in front of me about seeing someone I care about die is nearly as despicable to me as someone who caused the death themselves.

And she'll be joined by the St Johns and the Stranger and save humanity. Unlikely scenario that she would risk her life for others. If you're talking about a chance at redemption, she already had one, if you take her with you on the RV, she could've redeemed herself somehow but instead, she saw an opportunity to steal and leave them stranded.

I never said it was likely. But a lot can happen over 16 months. People change. Sure, people who took her along to give her another chance and were again burned by her have reason to not forgive her. But for those who left her on the side of the road, Lilly still hasn't used up her second chance yet.

Does they need to have plans for them to be bad?

They need to have plans for them being bad all along to make sense. There's no reason to think that all of Lilly's previous interactions with Lee was all just her being manipulative if there was no motive to the manipulation. It makes far more sense that she was a sincere but flawed leader, who got crazy and paranoid after people from her group smashed her father's head with a salt-lick while she was trying to save him. Say what you will about how bad her actions were, but even you have to appreciate how traumatic that must have been for her.

Again What?!?!?!?! We saw both Carley & Doug with Ben together twice in Episode 2 when they went back to the motel with the muffins and when they went back to the farm to rescue the group. Where did that come from?

From Lilly. "I've seen you two together," referring to Carley and Ben. She also remarked how Carley seemed oddly eager to see the supplies when they brought them in. Of course, you probably assumed that she was lying.

Forget about the style of actions they did, which is bad, a person you don't know tries hurts you or someone you do know and is supposed to have your back but didn't hurts you?

Why "forget about the style of actions they did"? That's pretty damn important in this case. But fine. Assuming it's the same amount of pain, pain caused by people whom you know and depend on feels worse than pain caused by strangers. But you'd also be more likely to forgive a person who caused you pain if they had looked out for you in the past.

No, I meant in some cases, Clem saw Lee leave Lilly on the side of the road and thus never saw Lilly steal the RV.
And in mo… morest cases, Lilly left her for dead as majority of the gamers made the decision to bring that bitch with them.
Because Clementine thinks that she killed Lee: a similarly sweet, kind and useful member of the group. In Clem's mind, she committed an irrational act of betrayal by running away from Lee, someone she cared deeply about and he died because of it. And that will make her sympathetic to what Lilly did. (Note: I'm not saying that this is what I believe happened; I'm saying that this is what Clem believes.)
What?
You think Clem will compare her looking for her parents to Lilly murdering an innocent person?
In Clem's mind the last thing she wanted to do is hurt Lee but in Lilly's mind the first thing she wanted to do is hurt Carley. Clem wanted to find her parents, I don't think s… [view original content]