Anyway, It's a well known fact that esoteric rites and entheogens always went together. I read the mayas used it, but I can't give you any exact names beyond that. But rest assured, it's true. I'm surprised you didn't know it already.

Although I only found it the other day at the secondhand "The Wondrous Mushroom - Mycolatry in Mesoamerica" by R. Gordon Wasson seems to be one of the most indepth looks into this. After studying mushroom takers in Russia preWWI he became convinced the mushroom began every religion on earth. So began his research with Mazatec Indian shamans.

Besides, does there actually exist some well documented record of hallucigen use in shamanistic or esoteric rites?

Can you mention something more concrete than soma or the apparently dubious mescalin accounts about the indians?

Amazonian use of ayahuasca (DMT) is well documented, as is use of psilocybin and mescaline (the reports of native American use of mescaline are well founded - peyote is still used in traditional settings today). Fire temples in formerly Vedic lands have been found to contain cannabis and ephedra resins at the bases of sacrificial bowls (the basis for the ephedrine/THC model of soma/houma). Viking priestesses were buried with cannabis. The Muslims gave us hashish. The ancient Egyptians used blue lilly/lotus flowers, the Greeks had their Kykeon for thousands of years (as well as psilocybin mushrooms). This is not an exhaustive list; suffice it to say, the weirder of any two cultures is the one which doesn't promote the use of hallucinogens to achieve deeper states of consciousness.

So far this thread has established that hallucinogen use is not isolated to the modern world and that not everyone who uses them is an outright retard. Needless to say the Aldous Huxley types are in the minority here.

In an attempt to recap the original topic:

Consider what exactly is being achieved in a deeper state of consciousness?Is this not possible without hallucinogens?Are successive drug trips necessary to achieve it?Are only drug-users pro-drugs?Are the benefits of abstinence so negligible?

It is possible to achieve a deeper state of consciousness but it is usually harder because our mind are conditioned to stay in the ''normal'' plane in order to survive in everyday life. The mind can be stuck in that plane and sometimes a boast is needed in order to break the bounderies. The drugs can remove the fear of the unknown or freeze our will so we can't stop the mind from wandering off.

But in itself, it is not necessary and in the longrun, it can be bad for the soul. It's like going in a car instead of walking. If you do it all the time, you will soon be out of shape. Odin is a walking wanderer. Not a driving one

How many different kinds of hallucinogen have you tried, in what sets/settings, for what purposes, to what effects? Have you been initiated by anyone trained in the use of such things?

I did psychadelics because they were fun, a good way to meet people, and I believed it would give me insights that I couldn't get otherwise. I did LSD and Mushies a lot up until a little over a year ago, when I was on LSD I'd usually skateboard with my friends and go on pussy patrol at the mall or college campus (LSD acted as sort of a stimulant for me, a lot of my friends said they couldn't get a boner on acid, I couldn't get flaccid). On Mushrooms it was a bit more of a shamanaic type thing, we'd usually try to go out and do it in the wilderness, specifically Red Rock Mountain and Mt. Charleston outside of Las Vegas, look it up, it's beautiful. I had some interesting experiences, it was the catalyst for some good insights. Tried Salvia once via BONG HIT, didn't like it, although it was interesting.

BUT I would have rather done something else with my time. I can't say I'm anti-drugs, but I know that if I wasn't so depressed I would have never done any drugs. I guess all I'm really trying to say here is that the pro-drug statements from some of us Hessians is merely a symptom of our spiritual decay.

Look back on your life, would you have done drugs if you were born into a thriving culture, or at least had some stronger values instilled in you as a child and adolescent? I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say despite our differing cultural and racial backgrounds, our life probably has some parallels. Namely that you probably had (a) parent(s) that thought he/she/they were doing you a favor by letting you figure out things by yourself other than "don't play in traffic" and "don't rape or murder", in effect throwing you out into a broken society to figure everything out on your own. If you had a dad maybe he would drop a nugget of wisdom here or there but probably remained aloof. Am I far off?

If you're curious, aside from psychadelics I've done pretty much every common recreational drug aside from Ecstasy and Cocaine. I used to be a borderline opiate addict, and I did speed a couple times and come to think of it I gained a lot more insights while on those drugs than I did the psychadelics, which just goes to show you because something may lead to an interesting experience/insight doesn't make it a good idea.

Like most things, drug use correlates with intelligence (which is not merely IQ but also character).

After you have gone through your exploratory/experimental phase (33 years old), grade yourself:

A: Does no drugs.B: Smokes a joint about four times a year for added alternative insight.C: Smokes a joint about once a week and is not entirely sure why anymore.D: Does most anything at the party, man!!1F: Sucks penis to get more.

Look back on your life, would you have done drugs if you were born into a thriving culture, or at least had some stronger values instilled in you as a child and adolescent?

Definitely. I might have been lucky enough to have been born into one of those cultures that actually knows how to use these things.

Quote

Am I far off?

Yeah, pretty far off with that. My Dad's consistently awesome, and both of my parents have sought to educate me in ways in which I might best ascertain the nature of the environments I find myself in (rather than just chucking me in the deep end, they teach me how to swim, first - like parents should).

Your description of what you did with the drugs is interesting. Personally, I generally do nothing but experience the effects of the substance (except for weed, which I do like to use while doing other things). Dark room, minimal music, lying down, eyes closed and breathing deeply. The best visions always come in that kind of relaxed state.

Personally, I generally do nothing but experience the effects of the substance (except for weed, which I do like to use while doing other things). Dark room, minimal music, lying down, eyes closed and breathing deeply. The best visions always come in that kind of relaxed state.

That was how I was with mushrooms. On LSD I can't sit still. If there is anything somewhat tangible that psychadelics ever helped me with was skateboarding. On LSD it seemed like practicing was twice as effective as it was normally. The key word there being "seemed", however.

Quote

Yeah, pretty far off with that.

The reason I made that guess I notice a lack of authority figures in childhood and adolescence is very strongly correlated with drug use. Come to think of it though, usually more with the purely pleasurable drugs (alcohol, opiates, stimulants) than psychadelics.

As with most aspects of an individual, one's attitude towards drugs largely depends on the family. While Cargest and I may have been anomalies, having great parents, I'd wager over half of all drug users come from single parent or otherwise dysfunctional families.

My main motivations for drug use were peer-pressure and iconoclasm. My friends who I'd grown up with all started using drugs, so my options were: A. make new friends or B. join them. In my youthful naivety, I hopped on the bandwagon. Also, at the tender age of 15, I was searching for a identity separate from the straight-laced, clean cut, goody two-shoes persona my parents wanted me to assume. Typing this out made me realize my parents did play a role, but it's not that they didn't give me enough love and attention, but that they wanted me to be something I wasn't. That is the downside of 'traditional' parenting -- certain personality types are very resistant to the idea of being 'molded'.

I will never regret using drugs. I'm just glad I went through that phase while I was young; whenever I meet a 21 year-old who is just getting into drugs, all I can do is roll my eyes.

To the folks who still use drugs: When will enough be enough? Surely you don't plan on using drugs for the rest of your life?

Logged

Phoenix

Query: If a drug's positive effects of increasing one's awareness and insight are great, and its negative effects of causing slight blind spots or tiredness or extremely minor hangover effects are very few, what the fuck is wrong with being more intelligent? If you don't think drugs can do this, then that's a separate discussion. But I don't fucking 'trip' on drugs. I don't get disorientated. I don't get 'fucked up'. I don't have trouble speaking, I don't get nervous, I don't get thoughts running through my mind, I don't lose touch with reality, I don't experience illusions of grandeur, etc. I can simply think more effectively. Period. Depending on the drug, of course. But most people aren't ready for this advanced thinking, it would contradict all the scapegoat beliefs they cling to so dearly about their self-identity and the nature of reality. Most people get 'fucked up' on drugs.