Order (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4xDZlk5vthcY2MzMWY2OWEtY2Q2OC00MGEwLWI0Mzc tMWU1YTdhMWU4NDIy&hl=en_US)

Summary of the order, which forgot to mention that I identified my handgun as being a handgun, and that I had showed another ranger 20 minutes earlier my handgun carry permit. Also not mentioned was the fact that both rangers specifically stated I did not threaten them in the depositions.

Here is the Tennessee law that allows the carry of a handgun in a state park.

39-17-1311. Carrying weapons on public parks, playgrounds, civic centers and other public recreational buildings and grounds. —

(a) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any weapon prohibited by § 39-17-1302(a), not used solely for instructional, display or sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in or on the grounds of any public park, playground, civic center or other building facility, area or property owned, used or operated by any municipal, county or state government, or instrumentality thereof, for recreational purposes.

(b) (1) The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to the following persons:

(H) Persons possessing a handgun, who are authorized to carry the handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351, while within or on a public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof, except as otherwise provided in subsection (d);

Given the circumstances here, the Court deems the appropriate inquiry here is
to determine whether the Defendant violated Plaintiff’s rights under the Second and Fourth
Amendments.

Here, prior to Ward’s seizure of Plaintiff, Plaintiff had an altered AK-47 strapped across
his chest and fully loaded with a bullet in the weapon’s chamber. Plaintiff’s AK-47 type weapon
had been modified with an orange barrel tip to resemble a toy. Several park visitors expressed
concern about Plaintiff being armed. Ward used his weapon to order Plaintiff to the ground to
allow Ward to search Plaintiff for any other weapons. After doing so, Ward allowed Plaintiff to
stand up and to use his cell phone until Metro Officers arrived at the scene. Ward never placed
Plaintiff in the ranger’s vehicle or handcuffed him. Plaintiff concedes Defendant and the officers
were calm, courteous, and respectful to him.State law authorized Ward to seize Plaintiff and his
weapon. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(t) provides:

Any law enforcement officer in this state or of any county or municipality
may, within the realm of the officer’s lawful jurisdiction and when the officer
is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s duties, disarm a permit holder
at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the
protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals.
The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging
the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the
permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other
individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated
any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed
any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.
(emphasis added).

Here, Plaintiff’s AK-47 type weapon had been modified with an orange barrel tip to
resemble a toy. Several park visitors expressed concerns about Plaintiff, given his camouflage
dress and the type of weapon he was carrying. Thus, under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(t),
the Court concludes that Ward had a reasonable belief to disarm Plaintiff as “necessary for the
protection of the permit holder, officer or other individuals or individuals” in the park area until
such time as Plaintiff’s weapon was determined to be lawful. Further, Embody’s weapon was
returned to him when the Metro Police investigation concluded that Embody’s weapon was a
legal handgun.

Thus, the Court concludes that the temporary seizure of Plaintiff and his weapon was
objectively reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

As to his Second Amendment claim, Plaintiff contends that on December 20, 2009,
Plaintiff had a legal right to carry his weapon, a Draco AK-47 pistol in a State park because
Plaintiff had a valid permit to carry the weapon that is legal under federal law.
The Second Amendment provides: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
U.S. Const., amend. 2. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Supreme
Court held unconstitutional several District of Columbia statutes prohibiting the possession of
handguns and requiring lawfully owned firearms to be kept inoperable. The Supreme Court
concluded the Second Amendment “confer[s] an individual right to keep and bear arms.” Id. at
595. The Supreme Court’s express holding was as follows:

In sum, we hold that the District's ban on handgun possession in the home
violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any
lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense.
Assuming that Heller is not disqualified from the exercise of Second Amendment
rights, the District must permit him to register his handgun and must issue
him a license to carry it in the home.
Id. at 635 (emphasis added).

The Supreme Court later extended Heller’s holding to the States. McDonald v. City of Chicago,
---U.S. ----, 130 S.Ct. 3020, 3047 (2010) (“We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.”) (plurality
opinion of Alito, J.). In United States v. Masciandaro, 638 F.3d 458 (4th Cir. 2011), the Fourth
Circuit explained these two holdings on the Second Amendment:

The upshot of these landmark decisions is that there now exists a clearly-defined
fundamental right to possess firearms for self-defense within the home. But a
considerable degree of uncertainty remains as to the scope of that right
beyond the home and the standards for determining whether and how the right
can be burdened by governmental regulation.
Id. at 467.

Although Heller recognized a citizen’s personal right under the Second Amendment to
possess a firearm in his name, the Court declined to define the scope of this right, but stated that:

“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From
Blackstone through the 19th century cases that right was not a right to keep and carry a weapon
whatsoever in any manner whatever and for whatever purpose.... [N]othing in our opinion should be
taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms....” 534 U.S. at 626.
For example, “[t]he Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-
abiding citizens for lawful purposes,” id. at 625, that is based upon a “historical tradition of
prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’” Id. at 627. In addition, the Second
Amendment does not preclude laws “on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws
forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or
laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.” Id. at 627 (emphasis added).

Here, Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351(t) governs authorizes temporary seizure of weapons
that raises a threat to public safety Tennessee:4 Plaintiff does not challenge the constitutionality
of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 on his Second Amendment claim. Yet, the site of this seizure
of Plaintiff’s weapon occurred in a state park and this presents a significant fact for Plaintiff’s
Second Amendment claim.

In Nordyke v. King, 563 F.3d 439 (9th Cir. 2009), the Ninth Circuit addressed a
challenge to a gun ban that extended to “open space venues, such as County-owned parks,
recreational areas, historic sites, parking lots of public buildings ... and the County fairgrounds.”

The Ninth Circuit explained that rationale to these restrictions was that such sites are “gathering
places where high numbers of people might congregate.” The Ninth Circuit concluded that” [a]lthough Heller
does not provide much guidance, the open, public spaces the County's Ordinance covers fit comfortably
within the same category as schools and government buildings.” Id. at 459-460. Similarly, in Masciandaro,
the Fourth Circuit concluded that federal regulations barring a citizen’s possession of a loaded weapon on
his person or in his vehicle in a federal park did not violate the Second Amendment because “large numbers
of people, including children congregate for recreation.” 638 F.3d at 472. The Fourth Circuit also
concluded that § 2.4(b)’s narrow prohibition was reasonably adapted to a substantial interest.

Under § 2.4(b), national parks patrons are prohibited from possessing loaded
firearms, and only then within their motor vehicles. 36 C.F.R. § 2.4(b) (“Carrying
or possessing a loaded weapon in a motor vehicle, vessel, or other mode of
transportation is prohibited”). Id. See also United States v. Dorosan, 2009 WL 3294733
(5th Cir. 2009) (“bringing a handgun onto property belonging to the United States Postal
Service,” a parking lot, was not protected by the Second Amendment).

Given that Plaintiff was in personal possession of a loaded weapon5 in a public park, the
Court concludes that the temporary seizure of Plaintiff’s weapon did not violate the Second
Amendment

For these reasons, the Defendant’s motion for summary judgment (Docket Entry No. 21)
should be granted. An appropriate Order is filed herewith.

4 “The citizens of this state have a legal right to keep and bear arms for their common defense;
but the general assembly has the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to
prevent crime.”

5 Whether Plaintiff’s AK-47, Draco pistol model, although legal, is a weapon “typically
possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes,” Heller, 554 U.S. at 625, poses a
significant issue, but the parties did not submit proof on that issue. With the Court’s conclusion
about Plaintiff’s possession of his loaded weapon in a public park, the Court deems resolution of
this issue unnecessary.

Fjold

07-22-2011, 9:56 PM

The Plaintiff was a complete tool.

Plaintiff’s AK-47 type weapon had been modified with an orange barrel tip to resemble a toy.

.

Gray Peterson

07-22-2011, 10:03 PM

Toolshed.

Blackhawk556

07-22-2011, 10:04 PM

Why the hell did he paint the tip in orange??? What a idiot ! Nordyke comes back to bite us, damn it.

Were you really dressed in camouflage? Did you have on one of those bennies with the small orange propellers on top?

This is a joke, right? And his backup gun was a .410 judge with 2in barrel? Right haha!

I hope this is a joke.

G17GUY

07-22-2011, 10:35 PM

Thanks for being counter productive.

ldsnet

07-22-2011, 10:36 PM

Not trying to defend the tool with the orange spray paint in this case;

The Judge didn't do us any favors either - he used a single statement from the 4th circuit to decide a case that fit his way of thinking, yet the Seventh court just slammed Chicago with the exact opposite argument that you can't use a balancing argument to define a protected right. Not to mention he used a appellate ruling that has already been challenged to SCOTUS.

So if SCOTUS overrules the 4th in Masciandaro, what does that do to these ruling that are quoting it?

Personally I can't figure out what he was seeking relief from - he was detained for a few hours while PD determined if he committed any crime (they did NOT over-react and arrest him as many departments would have). Returned his property and sent him on his way. It took a while yes, but he created a situation where there were many questions to figure out what was going on.

hoffmang

07-22-2011, 10:43 PM

Yep. No one wants to listen when we advise wisdom and then crap like this happens...

-Gene

leelaw

07-22-2011, 10:50 PM

Thanks for being the rotten apple that single-handedly set back the real work of people who know what they're doing.

What, exactly, do you expect to accomplish by being here?

mag360

07-22-2011, 10:51 PM

so you single handedly got everyone in tennessee with a carry permit voided from being able to carry in parks??

if you're going to do stuff like this why do it with a damn draco, that just freaks people out. yes it's a pistol but cot darnit man you have to think this through! I'm sure this will eventually get turned over because how the heck can you ban firearms in a public area without presenting a 2A violation? I hope you can get a lawyer now!

This is either the most stupid maneuver I've seen or you are the best Brady shill ever invented.

fiddletown

07-22-2011, 11:09 PM

It appears that the OP, kwikrnu, is one, Leonard Embody (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Gir&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=leonard+embody&revid=1941884998&sa=X&ei=C3AqTtuqPJK2sAPqtMniCg&ved=0CHYQ1QIoAQ).

Mr. Embody is well known for his provocative, ludicrous, ill conceived and damaging Second Amendment idiocy (oops, did I mean "advocacy"?). I've seen him around the "gun boards" for the last several years, and apparently he's managed to get himself banned pretty much everywhere but here.

Uriah02

07-22-2011, 11:15 PM

Are we sure the OP is the Plantiff or that the post was a copy/paste of the events that happened, thus explaining the first person perspective?

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:21 PM

so you single handedly got everyone in tennessee with a carry permit voided from being able to carry in parks??

No, the Tennessee law states it is a defense if you have a handgun carry permit, tca 39-17-1311. The judge said that cops can detain for at least 2 1/2 hours, at gun point, anyone who has a handgun in a state park. That would include people they know who have a handgun carry permit.

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:22 PM

Are we sure the OP is the Plantiff or that the post was a copy/paste of the events that happened, thus explaining the first person perspective?

I am the plaintiff.

fiddletown

07-22-2011, 11:23 PM

Are we sure the OP is the Plantiff or that the post was a copy/paste of the events that happened, thus explaining the first person perspective?Yup.

Google kwikrnu (http://www.google.com/search?q=kwikrnu&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) and kwikrnu draco ak pistol (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=U4r&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=kwikrnu+draco+ak+pistol&revid=1982272258&sa=X&ei=bXUqTpSSI4L2swPEhIDsCg&ved=0CHcQ1QIoAg). And compare those with the Google entry for Leonard Embody (I included the link in my prior post).

ETA: And he's admitted it.

five.five-six

07-22-2011, 11:27 PM

I am the plaintiff.

you weren't in norway today?...... were you?

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:28 PM

Personally I can't figure out what he was seeking relief from - he was detained for a few hours while PD determined if he committed any crime (they did NOT over-react and arrest him as many departments would have). Returned his property and sent him on his way. It took a while yes, but he created a situation where there were many questions to figure out what was going on.

open carry = legal
carry in a state park = legal
painted guns = legal

detained at gun point for completely legal activity = illegal

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:29 PM

Why the hell did he paint the tip in orange??? What a idiot ! Nordyke comes back to bite us, damn it.

Why not? Orange is a valid color to paint a gun and completely legal in Tennessee.

fiddletown

07-22-2011, 11:31 PM

open carry = legal
carry in a state park = legal
painted guns = legal

detained at gun point for completely legal activity = illegalIs that why you lost?

IIRC, you've been through this kind of stuff before and either gotten hammered or at least have gotten nowhere. Have you ever won?

Perhaps, your lack of success should suggest to you that you don't know what you're doing.

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:32 PM

...yes it's a pistol but cot darnit man you have to think this through! I'm sure this will eventually get turned over because how the heck can you ban firearms in a public area without presenting a 2A violation? I hope you can get a lawyer now!

You are correct a draco is a ak-47 pistol and completely legal to carry in Tennessee.

I was represented by an attorney.

The government can't legally ban carry in a state park because it is against the second amendment. It is already legal to carry a gun in Tennessee state parks with a handgun carry permit, tca 39-17-1311.

leelaw

07-22-2011, 11:35 PM

Why not? Orange is a valid color to paint a gun and completely legal in Tennessee.

Because that, plus your costume, shows an intent to antagonize confrontations, and as is the usual case with folks who choose as such (and then ignores advice of those who know better than you, sitting on your hallucinated patriotic/2A supporter high horse, with a naive aire of self-righteous superiority) bad case law follows.

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:38 PM

Is that why you lost?

IIRC, you've been through this kind of stuff before and either gotten hammered or at least have gotten nowhere. Have you ever won?

Perhaps, your lack of success should suggest to you that you don't know what you're doing.

I have one other lawsuit pending in state court. The lawsuit is to have declared unconstitutional the Tennessee law, (tca 39-17-1307(a)(1), which bans the carry of all loaded firearms unless you are; law enforcement, hunting, have a handgun carry permit, or are on private property. This is because Tennessee, which is a shall issue state, permanently suspended my handgun carry permit. The judge found against me in summary judgment, but reversed and vacated. I am pro se in that lawsuit, go figure. Oral arguments are sceduled for mid September.

kwikrnu

07-22-2011, 11:39 PM

Because that, plus your costume, shows an intent to antagonize confrontations, and as is the usual case with folks who choose as such (and then ignores advice of those who know better than you, sitting on your hallucinated patriotic/2A supporter high horse, with a naive aire of self-righteous superiority) bad case law follows.

A camoflauge jacket is hardly a costume, especially in Tennessee, in winter.

leelaw

07-22-2011, 11:42 PM

A camoflauge jacket is hardly a costume, especially in Tennessee, in winter.

It's the totality of your costume, gun painted to mimic a non-firearm, and all...

...but you're probably too blinded by yourself to see this.

Kestryll

07-22-2011, 11:45 PM

Wow, the stupid is strong with this one.

fiddletown

07-22-2011, 11:46 PM

A camoflauge jacket is hardly a costume, especially in Tennessee, in winter.But that together with your other antics shows you to be a buffoon.

You continue to be an embarrassment to all the thoughtful people working so hard to further the RKBA.

Kestryll

07-22-2011, 11:51 PM

You continue to be an embarrassment to all the thoughtful people working so hard to further the RKBA.

If only all we had to worry about was being embarassed!

It's one thing to act the fool and look silly, it's another to do so and nring harm to our cause.

I suspect the Brady Orgs are far more grateful for your efforts than any pro 2A group would be.

L84CABO

07-22-2011, 11:55 PM

:nuts:

GWbiker

07-22-2011, 11:56 PM

OP has done dumb schitt in the past in his home state. Got himself bounced from a few gun forums, one in particular - Open Carry. com.

Now, he's here apparently looking for sympathy.

five.five-six

07-23-2011, 12:01 AM

If only all we had to worry about was being embarrassed!

It's one thing to act the fool and look silly, it's another to do so and bring harm to our cause.

I suspect the Brady Orgs are far more grateful for your efforts than any pro 2A group would be.

that is probably the harshest thing I have ever read from you. I will not be surprised if I get an email from Brady me about real guns in parks being painted to look like toys.

you can't make this stuff up, Brady just has to sit back and wait for one of us to do something stupid. looks like they hit the jackpot here

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 12:13 AM

OP has done dumb schitt in the past in his home state. Got himself bounced from a few gun forums, one in particular - Open Carry. com.

Now, he's here apparently looking for sympathy.

I'm not looking for sympathy, just here to state the facts.

Orange handguns are legal in Tennessee.
The draco ak pistol is a handgun.
State parks are legal carry zones in Tennessee w/ a handgun carry permit.
I was detained 2.5 hours at gunpoint, after I identified myself and my gun.
Neither ranger was threatened according to the depositions.

I have an audio recording of the 1st ranger on youtube.

JETLAG

07-23-2011, 12:16 AM

WOW! :nuts::nuts::nuts:

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 12:17 AM

It's the totality of your costume, gun painted to mimic a non-firearm, and all...

A camoflauge jacket is not a "costume."

Last I checked there was no Federal or Tennessee law which requires airsoft guns have an orange muzzle. There is no Federal or Tennessee law which restricts the painting of handguns.

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 12:23 AM

... just here to state the facts.

Orange handguns are legal in Tennessee.
The draco ak pistol is a handgun.
State parks are legal carry zones in Tennessee w/ a handgun carry permit.
I was detained 2.5 hours at gunpoint, after I identified myself and my gun.
Neither ranger was threatened according to the depositions.....And you managed to make some lousy law for gun owners in the Sixth Circuit.

In the years I've seen you posting on various gun boards about your antics, I don't recall anyone taking your side. If a bunch of gun owners on gun boards aren't receptive to your specious arguments, why would you expect a judge to be?

You really don't have a clue. That is both pathetic and frightening.

leelaw

07-23-2011, 12:32 AM

Last I checked there was no Federal or Tennessee law which requires airsoft guns have an orange muzzle. There is no Federal or Tennessee law which restricts the painting of handguns.

Last I checked there isn't any law to have common sense, either, which is lucky for you because if there was you'd be screwed.

monk

07-23-2011, 12:34 AM

What everyone here keeps saying though, is that while having a painted orange gun is legal, and wearing a camo jacket is fine, and going to a state park with a ccw is also fine, all of that COMBINED came out to a bad judgment call. I can understand that it's legal, but the perception that an orange tipped gun implies is that it's a toy. Plain and simple. Because it most obviously was NOT a toy, that implies you where trying to conceal the fact that you had a gun on your person, or at the very least, attempting to instigate something for reasons no one can fathom.

Hope that makes sense.

Monte

07-23-2011, 12:41 AM

It's like he's our version of Paul Helmke. The pure cluelessness of his actions and words make you wonder if he's working for the other side.

Liberty1

07-23-2011, 1:11 AM

...bounced from a few gun forums, one in particular - Open Carry. com.

Wow, that is hard to do!

Liberty1

07-23-2011, 1:14 AM

OP,

Please, please, please watch this. If you don't understand or don't agree with it let me know so we can chat. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52_27JeI9YY

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 2:19 AM

I can understand that it's legal, but the perception that an orange tipped gun implies is that it's a toy. Plain and simple. Because it most obviously was NOT a toy, that implies you where trying to conceal the fact that you had a gun on your person, or at the very least, attempting to instigate something for reasons no one can fathom.

Hope that makes sense.

A toy handgun is not illegal to carry in a state park.
A real handgun is not illegal to carry in a state park.

I open carried the handgun on a sling in plain sight, and when the ranger stopped me i immediately told him it was a real handgun, it is on an audio recording. So, what was I trying to hide?

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 3:41 AM

A toy handgun is not illegal to carry in a state park.
A real handgun is not illegal to carry in a state park.

I open carried the handgun on a sling in plain sight, and when the ranger stopped me i immediately told him it was a real handgun, it is on an audio recording. So, what was I trying to hide?

OP, without judging you for what could be construed as a really bad idea, I have to take issue with your painting the tip orange:

It really does look like a toy, and even though it is legal under the law of your state, it only alienates the public from the cause. While I am sympathetic to your situation, a normal handgun in a belt holster would have been far more appropriate. If you continue to push the envelope by provoking the police and residents into confronting you with an orange-tipped AK pistol, you're going to further alienate people who may otherwise support the right to carry. And this was in Tennessee. See the sticky thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=338401) here about avoiding the open carrying of evil black rifles. If your state revises its laws over this incident, you will have singlehandedly created negative Second Amendment precedent.

While I admire your restraint in response to the comments on here that say you are "a tool," I think you need to seriously rethink what you are doing. If you create case law that holds that a park is a "sensitive place" within the meaning of the Second Amendment, that would be a complete disaster for us in CA because the 9th Circuit will cite your case to justify upholding the state park bans that are ripe for being challenged here. Please reconsider your "demonstration of your rights."

I also strongly, strongly advise you not to appeal the grant of Summary Judgment in your case. It will be upheld on appeal and will then be cited in every future 2A case. At a minimum, please contact the Second Amendment Foundation and ask for their take on your situation. http://www.saf.org

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 4:43 AM

I also strongly, strongly advise you not to appeal the grant of Summary Judgment in your case. It will be upheld on appeal and will then be cited in every future 2A case.

Which is why I may just pay the $400 filing fee and represent myself. :TFH:

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 4:46 AM

OP,

Please, please, please watch this. If you don't understand or don't agree with it let me know so we can chat. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52_27JeI9YY

I've made several comments on that video months ago. Gura isn't my boss and I won't be told what to do.

Wrangler John

07-23-2011, 4:47 AM

We were warned about provocateurs from the leftist anti-gun side doing exactly these types of things. Things specifically designed to elicit ever more restrictive legislation and court decisions. For example, while open carriers claim they are only exercising their constitutional rights to legally carry a firearm openly (and unloaded as in California) they are subject to exploitation as useful idiots by the leftist opposition. Essentially what we see are well meaning pro-gun zealots being provoked into taking action that will garner publicity, show themselves as sinister, unreasonable and unstable, and result in further restrictions on the 2nd Amendment.

These people, at the direction of their puppet masters, will continue to plow the edges of the Heller and McDonald decisions until they render both meaningless or at least reduced in scope through flaws in both. "Sensitive places," is just such a flaw to be exploited. In my opinion, the OP could be considered to be such a tool or agent, wherein he/she loudly proclaims his/her actions completely legal, with the intent to showcase flaws in the laws that allow his/her conduct, thereby provoking legislation and court decisions unfavorable to our liberty. It's a technique as old as politics and as insidious as dry wood termites.

How should one otherwise characterize dressing up in camouflage (eluding to a radical militia connection) while carrying a loaded "assault weapon" type pistol (a terror weapon) camouflaged to mimic a toy (setting the stage for an act of terror) containing a "high capacity magazine" in the presence of the public recreating in a place normally considered a safe sanctuary? The CCW connection can be seen as an effort to bring discredit on the CCW permit process itself, resulting in further restrictions on concealed carry. The fact that these actions are completely legal, is exactly the point being made to provoke additional restrictions. You be the judge.

Wrangler John

07-23-2011, 4:51 AM

A toy handgun is not illegal to carry in a state park.
A real handgun is not illegal to carry in a state park.

I open carried the handgun on a sling in plain sight, and when the ranger stopped me i immediately told him it was a real handgun, it is on an audio recording. So, what was I trying to hide?

I've made several comments on that video months ago. Gura isn't my boss and I won't be told what to do.

Which is why I may just pay the $400 filing fee and represent myself. :TFH:

Proves the point in my first post, yes? Outrageous but legal conduct designed to provoke negative attitudes in the public mind. Won't listen to advice, does everything to ensure failure and negative result. Classic.

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 5:11 AM

Which is why I may just pay the $400 filing fee and represent myself. :TFH:

You're not hearing us. You will be harming the Second Amendment if you appeal your case. Having a published opinion from any Circuit that a park is a sensitive place akin to a K-12 school or airport would be a total disaster.

Gura is no one's boss, but he is the best legal mind we have on our side. Listen to his opinion; he says that well-intentioned but wrongheaded litigation from our side is the biggest threat to 2A precedents.

NotEnufGarage

07-23-2011, 5:17 AM

I've made several comments on that video months ago. Gura isn't my boss and I won't be told what to do.

You're either an agent provocateur for the anti-gun forces or don't have the common sense God gave a flea. Just because something is legal (or rather isn't illegal) doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Please stop and find another hobby, okay?

SanPedroShooter

07-23-2011, 5:20 AM

Wow, and we thought our local jokers were bad... This guy makes them look like pro's.

Please explain what significance painting the tip of your draco orange has? And I know its not illegal (yet)

Thats the part I cant get over. With the totality of the circumstances, it seems designed to cause a provocation. I wonder if the OP did this in more than a few places untill he finally got what he was obviously looking for.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 5:20 AM

You're not hearing us. You will be harming the Second Amendment if you appeal your case. Having a published opinion from any Circuit that a park is a sensitive place akin to a K-12 school or airport would be a total disaster.

Gura is no one's boss, but he is the best legal mind we have on our side. Listen to his opinion; he says that well-intentioned but wrongheaded litigation from our side is the biggest threat to 2A precedents.

It isn't Gura's decision to make, besides there is no guarantee the opinion would be published.

From reading this thread many are angry that I open carried a handgun in a state park. If parks are sensitive places then I should lose my lawsuit. Arguing against me is arguing that parks are sensitive places.

SanPedroShooter

07-23-2011, 5:23 AM

Do you not see the totality of circumstance in this instance? Really?

Its bigger than "I was just open carrying"

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 5:29 AM

It isn't Gura's decision to make, besides there is no guarantee the opinion would be published.

From reading this thread many are angry that I open carried a handgun in a state park. If parks are sensitive places then I should lose my lawsuit. Arguing against me is arguing that parks are sensitive places.

No one will dispute that it's your decision whether to appeal. We're merely pointing out that it's a really bad case, and I'm drawing your attention to the fact that you have a chance to limit the damage by not appealing your loss at summary judgment. Personally I thought the District judge's decision was remarkably fair to you from the standpoint of its recitation of the facts, considering what it could have said. If its statement of facts was accurate as to the actions of the park rangers and police, it sounds like even the police were fair to you. Please consider the option of not appealing.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 5:30 AM

Do you not see the totality of circumstance in this instance? Really?

Its bigger than "I was just open carrying"

So your point is;

1. That a person with a valid carry permit can't carry a loaded handgun in a state park.
2. That a person with a valid carry permit and a loaded ak handgun can't carry in a state park.
3. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.
4. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun with an orange muzzle, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.

With which "totality" do you draw the line? My opinion is that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 5:31 AM

No one will dispute that it's your decision whether to appeal. We're merely pointing out that it's a really bad case, and I'm drawing your attention to the fact that you have a chance to limit the damage by not appealing your loss at summary judgment. Please consider this option.

Not appealing is not an option.

choprzrul

07-23-2011, 5:31 AM

Treason.

Actively working AGAINST our civil rights.

Most likely on the Brady payroll.

Can Kes ban him from the United States?

Can we send him to Iraq to walk around in their parks instead?

.

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 5:40 AM

Not appealing is not an option.

I understand that you are upset about your loss. However, it's positions like this that cause problems for everyone else. What exactly is your theory going to be on appeal?

It will be a published opinion holding that your 2A rights were not violated because you suffered no damages beyond a couple of hours of your time while the authorities figured out whether your weapon was legal. You weren't even cuffed. Worst case is they hold a park is a sensitive place and that opinion gets cited in the Nordyke case, which is then affirmed by the Supreme Court. Your case could affect the ENTIRE COUNTRY. All I'm asking you to do is please contact the Second Amendment Foundation about this case.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 5:45 AM

I understand that you are upset about your loss. However, it's positions like this that cause problems for everyone else. What exactly is your theory going to be on appeal?

It will be a published opinion holding that your 2A rights were not violated because you suffered no damages beyond a couple of hours of your time while the authorities figured out whether your weapon was legal. You weren't even cuffed.

Shotgun pointed at my face, detained a couple of hours, and I was cuffed. The definition of a handgun in Tennessee is clear, no stock and a barrel less than 12 inches.

I will get a decision that confirms my theory or confirms the judge's theory. That is what my $400 will pay for. I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else. They should welcome the case law.

SanPedroShooter

07-23-2011, 5:46 AM

So your point is;

1. That a person with a valid carry permit can't carry a loaded handgun in a state park.
2. That a person with a valid carry permit and a loaded ak handgun can't carry in a state park.
3. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.
4. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun with an orange muzzle, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.

With which "totality" do you draw the line? My opinion is that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

dont forget the painted orange tip on the gun. This whole thing smells like a setup. Did you purposely go out to "test your theory"

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 5:48 AM

Shotgun pointed at my face, detained a couple of hours, and I was cuffed. The definition of a handgun in Tennessee is clear, no stock and a barrel less than 12 inches.

I will get a decision that confirms my theory or confirms the judge's theory. That is what my $400 will pay for. I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else. They should welcome the case law.

I stand corrected, you were cuffed. Re the shotgun in your face, it sounds like you provoked the encounter and should not have been surprised.

Your $400 could be put to better use donating to the Madison Society or SAF.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 5:53 AM

I stand corrected, you were cuffed. Re the shotgun in your face, it sounds like you provoked the encounter and should not have been surprised.

Your $400 could be put to better use donating to the Madison Society or SAF.

I provoked nothing. I told ranger #1 that my firearm was real and I presented him my handgun carry permit. I was free to continue my walk and twenty uneventful minutes later ranger #2 jumped from a truck, pointed a shotgun at my face, put me on the ground, I was searched, and detained 2.5 hours.

AUDIO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyR-cxfFAcs)

I don't donate to SAF or any gun group.

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 6:00 AM

I don't donate to SAF or any gun group.

It sounds like you are an extreme libertarian. While I commend you for your belief in self-reliance and independence, the legal system is not the right place to be a libertarian. I'm speaking from years of experience in the legal system. A panel of Circuit judges is going to smack you down, guaranteed, and they may do so in a much stronger fashion than the District judge did.

Prevailing in the big picture is going to take teamwork, dedication, and years of hard work. I recently held off on filing my own 2A challenge to a special park district's regulations prohibiting the possession of any weapon. Per Alan Gura:

I don't have an opinion about whether this regulation exceeds the District's authority under California law. However, any Second Amendment litigation over this rule would be, in my opinion, a terrible mistake.

The odds of obtaining a positive opinion on this issue from your local trial courts are slim to none, and the issue is already pending before the Ninth Circuit in a number of cases, some of which are fairly advanced. As a simple matter of the calendar, a new Second Amendment carry case in the 9th Circuit has zero chance---none----of being the case that decides the issue within that circuit, but at least in California, it will likely generate additional adverse precedent that would be cited in those existing Ninth Circuit cases and elsewhere. At a minimum, any additional Second Amendment carry disputes in California should await resolution of the carry issue in the 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court.

I'd urge you to wait and let the process already started work its course. Once there is positive precedent in place, the issue should be re-visited.

Thanks,
Alan GuraI urge you to think carefully about whether you should appeal this case.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 6:07 AM

A panel of Circuit judges is going to smack you down, guaranteed, and they may do so in a much stronger fashion than the District judge did.

Per Alan Gura: blah blah

I urge you to think carefully about whether you should appeal this case.

I'm done thinking and discussing it, mine will be appealed.

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 6:10 AM

I'm done thinking and discussing it, mine will be appealed.

In that case I wish you luck and hope you will post the results in this thread.

Liberty1

07-23-2011, 6:13 AM

There is no honor or victory in kamikaze tactics. You want to win, you should win, but you don't seem to be interested in the tactical manuvering necessary to win. Walking straight into the anti's fortified position pro se yelling bansai doesn't make defeat more honorable.

There is a way to get what you want but it requires stratigic planning and execution. It sounds like you just relish the fight, and not the effort it takes to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible to better insure the chances of a win.

Stop fighting like the empire of Japan and more like Nimitz. You do want to win right?

RobG

07-23-2011, 6:14 AM

If you think anyone is dumb enough to believe you didn't paint the barrel tip orange in an attempt to provoke a situation, you are an idiot. There certainly better ways to get your "15 minutes." You are the plantiff the antis all dream about.

kwikrnu

07-23-2011, 6:18 AM

If you think anyone is dumb enough to believe you didn't paint the barrel tip orange in an attempt to provoke a situation, you are an idiot. There certainly better ways to get your "15 minutes." You are the plantiff the antis all dream about.

Perhaps we report this to Kes and let him do the judge, jury, execution thing here on the forum. Just sayin...:D I think its fair to say that certain animals need to be put out of their misery.

I'd rather he have an open venue. Keep your friends close...

Liberty1

07-23-2011, 6:23 AM

I take it you would not like my other handgun.

That is a matter for personal tastes. What we don't like are your legal tactics or lack there of.

AJAX22

07-23-2011, 6:27 AM

I'm usually not one to ask people to not engage in any form of 2a activism, but I honestly cannot think of a worse way to go about fighting for the 2a.

Your heart may be in the right place and I can sympathize with the stick it to the man sentiment.

But what you are doing is setting very bad case law which will cost thousands of dollars and years of work to undo.

Think of it this way: up untill you took this to court, your actions were legal, protected under the 2A, and had you been arrested or charged with anything those charges would have been summarily dismissed.

You have now taken the first steps to removing the 2a protections for the carrying of firearms in state parks...

So the next person who has a shotgun stuffed in their face at a state park because of their legal open carrying of a handgun will now NOT be able to cite the 2a as a protection.

So when the Sunday school teacher in the nicely pressed suit gets harassed for having a Nickel plated 1911 with ivory grips (that his dad brought home from the war) and the police officer makes him toss the gun to the ground which cracks the irreplaceable ivory grips (with the message from his now deceased father inscribed on the back of them) and they handcuff him in front of his family and force him to leave the park...

When HE sues the police on the grounds of a 2a and 4a violation... All the DA has to say is "your honor, I cite the case of ****tard vs the state of tennesee in which it was determined that the parks are a sensitive place subject to additional regulation"

And now the guy who you would WANT setting precedent gets thrown out of court.

Your motives nay be pure but you need to take a step back and re-evaluate your meathodology.

You managed to get a judge in TENNESEE to give an anti 2a ruling.... Do you know how hard it is to do that? It's not like your in San Francisco... Your in a good old boy state....

RobG

07-23-2011, 6:27 AM

I take it you would not like my other handgun.

Has nothing to do with the weapon itself. Its your use of it to provoke a situation. But hey, you go about doing what you are doing. Just do not think that anyone with any real sense of the legal system is going to back you.

Is there not a TN based forum you should be discussing this on?

d_c_mar

07-23-2011, 6:28 AM

Why are you people interacting with this person? He is clearly:
1) Completely devoid of common sense, or
2) Actively trying to chip away at the 2nd ammendment.

He has shown that he will not listen to reason, he keeps robotically repeating that what he's doing is legal. He has indicated that he does not donate to any meaningful groups that promote legal action (SAF, etc).
Just ignore him and move on. I understand that he may set us back, but no one here will dissuade him as no other message board of reasonable people has been able to do it before, thus the bans.

Kes, bring the hammer and lets all continue on with our work. We'll have more of it to do thanks to Mr. "It's perfectly legal"

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 6:32 AM

I provoked nothing. I told ranger #1 that my firearm was real and I presented him my handgun carry permit. I was free to continue my walk and twenty uneventful minutes later ranger #2 jumped from a truck, pointed a shotgun at my face, put me on the ground, I was searched, and detained 2.5 hours.

Your deposition in the case (http://blog.andrewwatters.com/blog/cg/depo-kwikrnu.pdf) [9 MB PDF] tells a somewhat different story regarding your attempts to provoke law enforcement, at least on other occasions. And I quote:

Q. Okay. And isn't it true that on August the 23rd of 2009 you stated on Glocktalk.com, "I can't wait for a cop to arrest me because I open-carried a handgun and someone called 9-1-1. It almost happened twice, but no cigar yet. Maybe carrying a PLR-16 or AK pistol will change that."

Your deposition, page 52, lines 2-8. You stated in response that you couldn't recall whether those were your words and that the forum edits a lot of your posts. Now we know why.

NotEnufGarage

07-23-2011, 6:42 AM

So your point is;

1. That a person with a valid carry permit can't carry a loaded handgun in a state park.
2. That a person with a valid carry permit and a loaded ak handgun can't carry in a state park.
3. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.
4. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun with an orange muzzle, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.

With which "totality" do you draw the line? My opinion is that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

Why don't you just go to the local zoo and torment the lions a little, then jump over the fence and try to make friends with them?

Do you not get it? These rights do not get upheld by the outliers, rather by the more mainstream cases. Your costume, firearm customizations and general demeanor just muddy the waters. You're obvisouly not carrying a modified AK pistol to protect you from any threat, since it's a crappy weapon for that purpose, so the only reason I can think of for why you're doing it is to push buttons to get some 15 minutes of noteriety. It wouldn't surprise me if you get adjudicated as unfit to own firearms in the very near future, and that would be a good thing for the firearms community as a whole. I'd be happy to testify against you at that proceeding.

Cease and desist or the next police encounter you have might end with a .40 slug lodged in some soft vital tissue.

nodeone

07-23-2011, 6:42 AM

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/demotivators_2164_6512225

PERSEVERANCE: The courage to ignore the obvious wisdom of turning back.

http://despair.com/perseverance.html

BannedinBritain

07-23-2011, 6:47 AM

Is there not a TN based forum you should be discussing this on?

Pretty sure he's probably gotten the boot from it if there is one.

This guy has obviously never gotten the concept of "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should".

I would expect after he has either done serious jail time, and lost any right to own or possess a firearm, he'll someday be holed up in a windowless cabin in Montana somewhere writing letters to Federal judges.

Ding126

07-23-2011, 6:50 AM

Why would anyone paint a firearm to look like a toy..legal or not, someone has a hole in their marble bag and should have their CCW revoked...I'm thinking not of sound mind.

cdtx2001

07-23-2011, 6:56 AM

Nothing personal to the OP but.....

Perhaps we report this to Kes and let him do the judge, jury, execution thing here on the forum. Just sayin...:D I think its fair to say that certain animals need to be put out of their misery.

I'd rather he have an open venue. Keep your friends close...

If that's your opinion then here's mine since we are now all on the jury for this guy...

He's given our enemies a win that is going to be hard to beat.
His antics and general lack of common sense are a disservice to us all.
He just doesn't get it that each of his activities, while legal, looked really bad and provoked a negative response.
He continues to think that he's helping those in the pro2A world, and he's just doing more damage.
He's got a Hello Kitty AR pistol with silencer in TN and we here in CA aren't able own silencers, and he's rubbing our noses in it.
He's pissing us all off the more we try to talk some sense into him.

My verdict, run him out of town on a pole and banish him to the UK.

In other words :ban:

SanPedroShooter

07-23-2011, 7:13 AM

http://blog.andrewwatters.com/blog/cg/depo-kwikrnu.pdf

Read the dep from about page 55 to 87 to get an idea of how this scenerio went down and what kind of person this guy is.

ha ha born and raised in California too. That strikes me as funny for some reason...

lgv800r

07-23-2011, 7:14 AM

He is clearly working for the other side!

Why else would anybody do the crap he's doing?

BAN!!

tygerpaw

07-23-2011, 7:24 AM

Some sick pups could copy this guys idea of dressing like GI Joe and run around with Hello Kitty or Barbi AR & AK pistols, then go and shoot up a mall full of kids & babies. That could be enough emotional trauma for the anti's to propose and possible get passed a constitutional amendment repealing or drastically limiting the Second Amendment.

Just because its legal (for now), does not make it smart or right to do.

Southwest Chuck

07-23-2011, 7:30 AM

Unequivocally, if not knowingly, the pure definition of a Brady Shill.

glbtrottr

07-23-2011, 7:33 AM

Wow - I work with dogs doing bitework in parks all the time, and the "hood" factor shows up all the time to harrass.

Is there a new hater club for me to join? Unreal.

CSACANNONEER

07-23-2011, 7:39 AM

I've made several comments on that video months ago. Gura isn't my boss and I won't be told what to do.

I believe you. I'm pretty sure that no one else in Sara's camp listens to him either.

If you are not really an anti, you might want to think about changing your tactics. While reading this thread, I found myself reaching for my checkbook to send a donation to the Bradys. I have never come so close to doing that before but, your obvious lack of good judgement goes a long way to support their arguement that some people are not mature or responsible enough to own or handle firearms.

Lone_Gunman

07-23-2011, 7:40 AM

This thread boggles my mind. OP- you are extreamly stupid and should not be in the gene pool. Please see if you can rectify that situation immediately.

Mulay El Raisuli

07-23-2011, 7:45 AM

I am the plaintiff.

How nice to see a man just up & admit to such a thing. How very refreshing!

I will get a decision that confirms my theory or confirms the judge's theory. That is what my $400 will pay for. I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else. They should welcome the case law.

Confirming the judge's theory is the part that worries us all the most. Which is why neither Gura nor anyone else won't be welcoming the case law that results from this fiasco.

The part in bold is the clue that explains it all. You really don't care. Which is what makes you so very frightening.

The Raisuli

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 7:46 AM

....From reading this thread many are angry that I open carried a handgun in a state park. If parks are sensitive places then I should lose my lawsuit. Arguing against me is arguing that parks are sensitive places.I don't see how you can get that from this thread, but given your past conduct, it appears that your powers of comprehensions are impaired.

What is being said in this thread is that your tactics are foolish and ill considered and harmful to our efforts to further the RKBA. You should understand that, because that is the response you've gotten on all gun boards.

It's clear that you don't care. As you wrote in post 58 (emphasis added):...I will get a decision that confirms my theory or confirms the judge's theory. That is what my $400 will pay for. I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else. They should welcome the case law.And as to your opinion that supporters of the RKBA should welcome the case law you create, you may believe that; but it must be clear from the response that you've gotten here and on other gun boards that you're wrong about that too.

And as Kestryll wrote, referring to you in post 27:Wow, the stupid is strong with this one.

five.five-six

07-23-2011, 7:54 AM

Can Kes ban him from the United States?

sigworthy

G60

07-23-2011, 8:03 AM

This is exactly what's wrong with the 'shall not be infringed' mentality when put into practice.

cdtx2001

07-23-2011, 8:03 AM

Can we put him on trial for treason yet???

Seriously guys, the more we feed this troll the more pissed off we are going to be. Let's end this now and find some way of stopping this idiot from harming us even more.

Also, haven't any of you learned yet? NEVER argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat the crap out of you with experience.

Kharn

07-23-2011, 8:10 AM

A plan that includes an unpublished Circuit Court opinion is a horrible plan.

Python2

07-23-2011, 8:19 AM

Do you not see the totality of circumstance in this instance? Really?

Its bigger than "I was just open carrying"

As I see it, OP has "tunnel vision"

billgato

07-23-2011, 8:33 AM

Also, haven't any of you learned yet? NEVER argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat the crap out of you.

There is a small portion you left off that's important in this case.

"Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

This Tennessee school bus driver is going to take down major advances in Second Amendment rights.

wazdat

07-23-2011, 8:47 AM

I will get a decision that confirms my theory or confirms the judge's theory. That is what my $400 will pay for. I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else. They should welcome the case law.

And therein lies the reason that so many on the forum are unhappy with your actions to;
a) provoke LE by carrying a firearm made to look like a toy and
b) pursue what will likely turn out to be bad case law.

Oh, and lest I forget, your failure to listen to reason.

:ban:

otteray

07-23-2011, 8:54 AM

Proverbs, Chapter 26:
3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
and a rod for the back of fools.
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
6 Whoever sends a message by the hand of a fool
cuts off his own feet and drinks violence.
7 Like a lame man's legs, which hang useless,
is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
8 Like one who binds the stone in the sling
is one who gives honor to a fool.
9 Like a thorn that goes up into the hand of a drunkard
is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
10 Like an archer who wounds everyone
is one who hires a passing fool or drunkard.
11 Like a dog that returns to his vomit
is a fool who repeats his folly.
12 Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

NotEnufGarage

07-23-2011, 8:57 AM

We should all just chip in and find a pyschiatrist to declare him mentally incompetent, since anyone who would do something like painting the muzzle of a fully functional pistol orange is obviously a danger to himself.

BannedinBritain

07-23-2011, 9:09 AM

There is ONE thing I would like to thank the OP for...any time someone says posting on an "anonymous" forum can't come back to bite you, we can link them to his deposition. :rofl2:

Madpyro

07-23-2011, 9:20 AM

A little bit of chlorine in that end of the gene pool please!!

ScottB

07-23-2011, 9:22 AM

Narcissism and guns: Always a bad combination

Noxx

07-23-2011, 9:33 AM

I've made several comments on that video months ago. Gura isn't my boss

Of course he's not. If he was you'd be fired for being an incompetent boob.

Thank your ego for writing checks we ALL have to cash.

TempleKnight

07-23-2011, 9:42 AM

I'm done thinking and discussing it, mine will be appealed.

Fixed it for you

quick draw mcgraw

07-23-2011, 9:47 AM

Yet again "one of our own", declares by his actions, us all to be crazed toothless machinegun toting hillbillies looking for a group of innocent children to slaughter.

When the general public's overwhelming perception of most, if not all, gun owners and 2nd Amendment supporters is that of the likes of a Jarrod Laughtner or the "Columbine Boys" it would most certainly be prudent for us as a group to work together to dispell that image as false and replace it with the image of gun owners as clean, responsible, and caring human beings.

Yeah it's your right to carry cowboy, but when you carry in public you represent gun owners as a whole and as such you need to be an ambassador for our cause, not a poster child for the Anti's to use against us.

If you don't think you can lose your "Rights" you are sadly mistaken!! Look around you at all those who don't give a damn about any of your constitutional rights and who work tirelessly to strip you of them.

The court of public opinion and an overzealous judge or politician is often all that's needed to circumvent your "Rights" and create Unconstitutional new laws. ...oops, too late! :rolleyes:

You know the saying...."if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....". And if ducks look dangerous, rest assured, they will be outlawed!

hoffmang

07-23-2011, 9:53 AM

This guy is so bad that simply visiting Tennessee and hanging out with actual gun guys will automatically bring his name up in a tone worse than that used in referring to Sara Brady.

It does almost make me happy to deal with Charles Nelson/Jon Birdt/Gary Gorski. Gorski is personally imploding. Karma catches up with people who have no wisdom...

I just have to add, Gura is 2 and 0 in the Supreme Court. All of these guys - are 0 for...

-Gene

Blackhawk556

07-23-2011, 10:26 AM

Wow this guy is a joke. I thought Gorski was the dumbest person to ever join calguns but I was wrong. OP, if so many people are telling you that what you are doing is wrong, shouldn't you step back and rethink what you are doing???

Kestryll

07-23-2011, 10:28 AM

kwikrnu won't be answering.

I tried to leave his account open so he could listen to reason but all he wanted to do is continue to parrot 'I'm legtal, I'm the good guy'.

There are times when you wonder if people like this are not closet anti's who are playing Manchurian Advocate...

yellowfin

07-23-2011, 10:30 AM

At least it's a problem we now know about. Can you imagine the greater damage of it not being brought to our attention?

bussda

07-23-2011, 10:33 AM

A friend can be your worst enemy. Because he is trying to help.

corrupt

07-23-2011, 10:53 AM

Wow, what an idiot. It's already bad and idiotic enough that he's doing what he's doing.. but I'd hate it if that guy was in our state.

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 11:09 AM

kwikrnu won't be answering...So there's one way in which Embody is batting 1000 -- getting banned on gun boards.

... all he wanted to do is continue to parrot 'I'm legtal,...And he was legal, which is why he's not in jail. What he misses is that the ruling in is not about him being legal.

Essentially by his antics, he intentionally made it difficult to determine if he was just a moron playing a stupid prank or a crazy person with a gun. What the court basically said in this case (Embody's civil suit claiming a violation of his civil rights) was that under all the circumstances (including the location of the incident) until the cops were able determine that Embody was just a moron playing a prank (rather than an armed nut case), the police acted reasonably.

... all he wanted to do is continue to parrot ...I'm the good guy'....But he really isn't.

TwitchALot

07-23-2011, 11:24 AM

I will get a decision that confirms my theory or confirms the judge's theory.

It will confirm the judge's theory. And you will have screwed everyone else in the process. Thanks?

That is what my $400 will pay for. I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else. [b]They should welcome the case law.[/b[

NO. We welcome GOOD case law. Not BAD case law. Are you smart enough to see the difference?

Please listen to the people who have a PROVEN record of WINNING. Not yourself, who has a proven record of LOSING - and possibly harming the 2A in the process.

The fact that you don't care if your actions hurt the 2A is a clue - that you are anti-2A and are interested in destroying gun rights. So ask yourself... why are you here (or not, anymore, I guess), and what do you expect to accomplish by talking to us? You don't really think we're going to support an anti-gun, anti-freedom, anti-liberty bigot, do you?

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 11:30 AM

http://blog.andrewwatters.com/blog/cg/depo-kwikrnu.pdf

Read the dep from about page 55 to 87 to get an idea of how this scenerio went down and what kind of person this guy is.

ha ha born and raised in California too. That strikes me as funny for some reason...

For some real fun (in a sick way), check out pages 92-113 for his posts on other message boards:

Off topic, but why do you have an orange tip?Safety. cops don't shoot people with orange tipped handguns. When they do they think
twice about it. Since most people assume it is an airsoft toy I will probably generate fewer
MWAG calls.Cops don't shoot people with orange-tipped handguns. Great. There's probably an interdepartmental memo now saying to assume all orange-tipped handguns are real. Great. BTW this incident happened in 2009 and this guy is still posting his sob story on boards. Here is a list of all the boards he was on at the time of his deposition:

These are all that I can recall. There are probably more. I can't remember.

Walker

07-23-2011, 11:32 AM

Fixed it for you

He was thinking in the first place?

HowardW56

07-23-2011, 11:54 AM

Wow, the stupid is strong with this one.

I am in shock reading this thread...

This fool had raised idiocy to an art form, and mastered it all at once…

HowardW56

07-23-2011, 11:58 AM

Last I checked there isn't any law to have common sense, either, which is lucky for you because if there was you'd be screwed.

:rofl2:

mosinnagantm9130

07-23-2011, 12:00 PM

So how long do you think it will be before he's declared mentally unable to own a firearm?

Any bets?

d_c_mar

07-23-2011, 12:04 PM

The scary part is that this guy has a wife and 2 young children. He doesn't see the danger he puts himself in when he LOC's an AK-47 pistol. Say I'm a CCW holder throwing a BBQ for my kids birthday at this park and I see him walking up to my party that includes 50 kids. Just at that moment, his sling is bothering his neck, so he takes the gun off over his shoulder. At the very least, he'll probably get one or a few guns drawn on him, at worst, he's gonna have more than a few slugs in him. Again, the stupid is strong with this one. Hopefully, he gets some help before he ends up behind bars or on a slab, leaving his wife and kids to fend for themselves.

andytothemax

07-23-2011, 12:22 PM

The scary part is that this guy has a wife and 2 young children. He doesn't see the danger he puts himself in when he LOC's an AK-47 pistol. Say I'm a CCW holder throwing a BBQ for my kids birthday at this park and I see him walking up to my party that includes 50 kids. Just at that moment, his sling is bothering his neck, so he takes the gun off over his shoulder. At the very least, he'll probably get one or a few guns drawn on him, at worst, he's gonna have more than a few slugs in him. Again, the stupid is strong with this one. Hopefully, he gets some help before he ends up behind bars or on a slab, leaving his wife and kids to fend for themselves.

Initially I thought the suppressed Hello Kitty Kel-Tec PLR-16 was kind of cool, but the more I learn about its owner the more concerned I get. I don't know what I would do if I saw someone toting that weapon around, because it does look like a toy.

It turns out his carry permit wa[/URL]s [url=http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/chancellor-dismisses-gun-toting-mans-complaint-against-state]revoked (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1198765) at some point after this incident, which is probably a good thing:

The Tennessee Department of Safety suspended Embody’s handgun carry permit last March, stating he “poses a material likelihood of risk to the public” based on information provided by the Belle Meade Police Department following Embody’s encounter with police in the Belle Meade Boulevard incident.

tyrist

07-23-2011, 12:24 PM

open carry = legal
carry in a state park = legal
painted guns = legal

detained at gun point for completely legal activity = illegal

I am sure you can fix that right up.

proclone1

07-23-2011, 12:39 PM

We should all just chip in and find a pyschiatrist to declare him mentally incompetent, since anyone who would do something like painting the muzzle of a fully functional pistol orange is obviously a danger to himself.

Actually I was thinking the same thing but couldn't articulate it. Honestly, I don't think the guy is stable and would not be surprised to find out he's psychotic and/or a sociopath and perhaps even schizophrenic.

CCWFacts

07-23-2011, 1:13 PM

The Plaintiff was a complete tool.
Plaintiff’s AK-47 type weapon had been modified with an orange barrel tip to resemble a toy.

Yeah, what an idiot. I have no sympathy for him. The officers treated him better than they should have.

Dreaded Claymore

07-23-2011, 1:16 PM

When I heard about the black powder Navy revolver thing, I thought Leonard Embody was just a well-intentioned but misguided advocate for the Second Amendment. Having read all this, I am now convinced that he is on the payroll of the Joyce Foundation and their ilk. His actions appear to be carefully calculated to harm the Second Amendment right.

Agent Orange

07-23-2011, 1:35 PM

The Plaintiff was a complete tool.

He's a power tool. Well known for his foolish exploits.

otteray

07-23-2011, 2:05 PM

Why does he affirm in the questioning that he went to "Cilantro Community College"?
A Google search brings up his father's name in Fairfield and SF.
Maybe Solano Community College?
I'm just curious what havoc he may have been involved in here in California.

kcbrown

07-23-2011, 2:11 PM

I'm usually not one to ask people to not engage in any form of 2a activism, but I honestly cannot think of a worse way to go about fighting for the 2a.

Your heart may be in the right place and I can sympathize with the stick it to the man sentiment.

But what you are doing is setting very bad case law which will cost thousands of dollars and years of work to undo.

Think of it this way: up untill you took this to court, your actions were legal, protected under the 2A, and had you been arrested or charged with anything those charges would have been summarily dismissed.

In a way, I have to slightly disagree with this.

It's not really protected under 2A unless it can survive all manner of court action.

I would say, therefore, that it's partially protected under 2A, but it won't be protected entirely until a lot more of the 2A foundation has been built.

And now, thanks to this guy's actions, it may never be completely protected under 2A anymore.

As for this guy's intentions, I think it's quite clear that he is intentionally harming the fight for 2nd Amendment rights. I can't necessarily fault the guy for painting his firearm in "hello kitty" style (bad taste though it may be), but painting the tip orange takes the whole thing to an entirely different level. One does not do that except to attempt to pass off a real firearm as an airsoft gun. That is especially evident in this case because the orange tip clashes with the rest of the color scheme.

It's difficult to conclude anything other than that this guy, though his actions, wanted people to conclude that he was attempting to hide the fact that he was carrying a real AK pistol. Most people would conclude from such behavior that he is likely to be up to no good, for who would attempt to hide the fact that what they carry is a real firearm except someone with ill intentions on his mind? That is, of course, what drew the attention of the police.

And that can yield only one of two conclusions: either he did have ill intent on his mind (i.e., he was attempting to conceal from the public the fact that he was carrying a real firearm for some other reason), or he was attempting to fool someone into believing that there was a good chance he had ill intent, so as to provoke detainment, etc. I believe the latter to be the case, most especially because he explicitly said that he doesn't care about Gura or anyone else. Someone who is fighting against a fundamental right won't really care about anyone else who is fighting for it.

Peter W Bush

07-23-2011, 2:15 PM

I am sure you can fix that right up.

:mad::mad:

I really don't remember when a thread has pissed me off more than this one. Is the plaintiff a complete moron?! I really hate to say this but I think the Rangers would have done the RKBA a favor by assuming that guy was a deadly threat. I cannot believe hwo ignorant and just plain dumb this OP is. WHY would anyone in their right mind do what he's been doing?! And to think, he has a wife and kids, and another case pending?!?!!! WOW.. Just wow.

Goosebrown

07-23-2011, 2:20 PM

Hate to say it, but your an idiot. You are legally entitled to own guns, but dang I hope you take up croquet instead.

Catechol

07-23-2011, 2:23 PM

This is why I do not support "constitutional carry"

Even though he's technically violated no laws. This joker is now prohibited from carrying a weapon -- AS HE SHOULD BE -- because the state has revoked his permit.

It's would not be violation of the law for me to open-carry every gun I own at once, fully-loaded and round chambered, in full-on desert camouflage, and a black ski mask, through downtown Phoenix, muttering about how I hate everyone (but without actually threatening anyone). Does this mean I should be free to terrorize people?

I think a person should have to undergo the same level of police firearms/use of force training as whatever their state POST mandates in order to carry a firearm, but at the same time they should be granted the ability to carry anywhere that LEO can. I was at the shooting range yesterday when some joker had an AD with his .357 and blew a hole in the bench. Yeah, I want that guy carrying a gun...

The Shadow

07-23-2011, 2:38 PM

kwikrnu won't be answering.

I tried to leave his account open so he could listen to reason but all he wanted to do is continue to parrot 'I'm legtal, I'm the good guy'.

There are times when you wonder if people like this are not closet anti's who are playing Manchurian Advocate...

He may not be able to answer, but he can read.

With freedom comes responsibility. Simple and basic, while what you did may be legal, it was irresponsible. It was irresponsible of you to overtly carry a firearm that is typically associated with terrorism and evil, it was irresponsible of you to paint the tip of said weapon in a manner that is commonly associated with a toy, and lastly, it was irresponsible to carry the weapon in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would be threatened.

As far as I'm concerned, that type of firearm is a novelty that can be shot at a range, and around other gun owners that would appreciate that type of weapon. It has no place in a park around kids. In other words, just like any other tool, you don't use a hammer to tighten a bolt, and you don't use a crescent wrench to hammer in a nail. What you should have done was carry a firearm in a concealed and discrete manner, or at least open carried a firearm in a holster in a non threatening manner.

When people call you a tool, I can't help but agree. Because of your irresponsible actions, you are a tool of the Brady's, LCAV, VPC, and any other antigun group that will use your irresponsible behavior as an example of why more restrictive gun laws should be enacted. Now if that's too difficult for you to understand, let me make it simpler for you. YOU FU:censored:ED UP, AND YOU DID IT AT OUR EXPENSE. STOP ! GOT IT ?

gunsmith

07-23-2011, 2:38 PM

I'm not looking for sympathy, just here to state the facts.

The main fact is you skeeroooed it up for a LOT of people, & IF we can un screw it ( a big freaking IF ) it will be years & thousands of $$ that could have been spent somewhere else.

but its a complete waste of time explaining it to you, you're both arrogant and nucking futts.

Peter W Bush

07-23-2011, 2:49 PM

OH MY GOD

Embody, who declined to talk with The City Paper, is saying on Internet chat rooms that he’ll take his weapon to downtown’s Bicentennial Mall, another state park, next week.

Of note, the guy is a school bus driver. Although he claims in his deposition that he never carried on school property, I seriously hope his employers reconsider his position in light of him being a danger to himself and others.

ScottB

07-23-2011, 4:36 PM

A more recent article says his carry permit was revoked, so any future antics will just get him locked up without a defense or second thought by police - and if its a felony he'll lose his 2nd Amendment rights altogether. Boo hoo.

Wrangler John

07-23-2011, 5:02 PM

Well, by now everybody has had a chance to see the danger in agent provocateurs, which it turns out, are the greatest danger to our 2nd Amendment rights. Kwikrnu is following the plan to a tee, including his seemingly bizzare involvement on numerous Internet boards to spread the message and stir up negative controversy. He is also carefully composing his posts to lead the readers toward a diagnosis of OCD and other more serious mental disorders. His actions imply the desire to discredit those in the self-defense movement particularly. However, thus far he has failed in the firearms community as evidenced by widespread rejection, but probably succeeded with the naive general reader.

In this case, I believe there is no other choice but for our side to push for nationwide legislation to ban the painting of any firearm to disguise it as a toy. Further, this act should be a felony, for obvious reasons. It is simply unreasonable for this ploy to remain legal, and certainly a Hello Kitty motif is, if nothing else, in bad taste. Perhaps the NRA and those interested could draft legislation that would protect legitimate firearms finishes. It would certainly demonstrate that we become proactive when faced with a situation that poses danger to all concerned.

VegasND

07-23-2011, 5:06 PM

The best you can come up with is to add another felony gun control law to the current infringements on the 2nd Amendment. With friends like you ...
Well, by now everybody has had a chance to see the danger in agent provocateurs, which it turns out, are the greatest danger to our 2nd Amendment rights. Kwikrnu is following the plan to a tee, including his seemingly bizzare involvement on numerous Internet boards to spread the message and stir up negative controversy. He is also carefully composing his posts to lead the readers toward a diagnosis of OCD and other more serious mental disorders. His actions imply the desire to discredit those in the self-defense movement particularly. However, thus far he has failed in the firearms community as evidenced by widespread rejection, but probably succeeded with the naive general reader.

In this case, I believe there is no other choice but for our side to push for nationwide legislation to ban the painting of any firearm to disguise it as a toy. Further, this act should be a felony, for obvious reasons. It is simply unreasonable for this ploy to remain legal, and certainly a Hello Kitty motif is, if nothing else, in bad taste. Perhaps the NRA and those interested could draft legislation that would protect legitimate firearms finishes. It would certainly demonstrate that we become proactive when faced with a situation that poses danger to all concerned.

monk

07-23-2011, 5:09 PM

If legislation like that is brought up, it should be very very specific. Last thing we would want is to have our hands tied by our own laws. I can see antigun people saying that changing the color of a slide from stock blued to chrome could be an illegal mod, if it's general enough.

NotEnufGarage

07-23-2011, 5:22 PM

Well, by now everybody has had a chance to see the danger in agent provocateurs, which it turns out, are the greatest danger to our 2nd Amendment rights. Kwikrnu is following the plan to a tee, including his seemingly bizzare involvement on numerous Internet boards to spread the message and stir up negative controversy. He is also carefully composing his posts to lead the readers toward a diagnosis of OCD and other more serious mental disorders. His actions imply the desire to discredit those in the self-defense movement particularly. However, thus far he has failed in the firearms community as evidenced by widespread rejection, but probably succeeded with the naive general reader.

In this case, I believe there is no other choice but for our side to push for nationwide legislation to ban the painting of any firearm to disguise it as a toy. Further, this act should be a felony, for obvious reasons. It is simply unreasonable for this ploy to remain legal, and certainly a Hello Kitty motif is, if nothing else, in bad taste. Perhaps the NRA and those interested could draft legislation that would protect legitimate firearms finishes. It would certainly demonstrate that we become proactive when faced with a situation that poses danger to all concerned.

What? A second agent provocateur in the same thread?

Seriously, dude, you'd want more gun control laws to deal with an outlier like this whackjob? I think the mental competence restrictions are sufficient to deal with him. All it's going to take is for his employer or the courts to force him into an evaluation and he won't be a part of the firearms community any longer.

Peter W Bush

07-23-2011, 5:40 PM

What? A second agent provocateur in the same thread?

Seriously, dude, you'd want more gun control laws to deal with an outlier like this whackjob? I think the mental competence restrictions are sufficient to deal with him. All it's going to take is for his employer or the courts to force him into an evaluation and he won't be a part of the firearms community any longer.

If "our own" are calling for more gun laws, imagine what legislation the Bradys will propose if this guy gets more attention!!!

Pred@tor

07-23-2011, 5:45 PM

This guy is a total rebel lol... the politically incorrect way of doing it. lol... Awesome and yet he stands his ground.

Scott Connors

07-23-2011, 6:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrangler John View Post
[snippage]
In this case, I believe there is no other choice but for our side to push for nationwide legislation to ban the painting of any firearm to disguise it as a toy. Further, this act should be a felony, for obvious reasons. It is simply unreasonable for this ploy to remain legal, and certainly a Hello Kitty motif is, if nothing else, in bad taste. Perhaps the NRA and those interested could draft legislation that would protect legitimate firearms finishes. It would certainly demonstrate that we become proactive when faced with a situation that poses danger to all concerned.

END QUOTE

People who object to Hello Kitty ARs suffer from a severe irony deficiency.

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 6:14 PM

This guy is a total rebel lol... the politically incorrect way of doing it. lol... Awesome and yet he stands his ground.I certainly don't consider it awesome when his buffoonery adversely affects RKBA interests.

....People who object to Hello Kitty ARs suffer from a severe irony deficiency.And that would almost certainly include a great many non-gun friendly voters.

ldsnet

07-23-2011, 6:18 PM

So your point is;

1. That a person with a valid carry permit can't carry a loaded handgun in a state park.
2. That a person with a valid carry permit and a loaded ak handgun can't carry in a state park.
3. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.
4. That a person with a valid carry permit, loaded ak handgun with an orange muzzle, and camoflage jacket can't carry in a state park.

With which "totality" do you draw the line? My opinion is that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

I understand your point, I really do. Being detained for a legal activity sucks.

The problem here is the final outcome. You are seeking redress from the court based on the action of a few individuals that were faced with a very unusual situation (that you created).

They handled it to the best of their experience and training.

If their training is at fault, the SCOTUS is not the answer. No judge is going to say to you " i'm sorry we offended you"

The judge will say YES the park is a sensitive place and the government can place additional restrictions on our liberties.

That is the WORST thing we need. CCW and understanding of the 2nd amendment in this generation is a new thing. It has taken hundreds of activists and MILLIONS of dollars to get to practice the rights we have now. And the fight is NOT OVER YET!

A single bad precedent ruling can DESTROY the practice of this right for the ENTIRE COUNTRY!

It's not about YOU anymore. There are more people in Los Angeles than the entire state of Tennessee. We are still fighting to enjoy the very right you are about to destroy.

Please let this go and try another route to restore your carry rights.

Mesa Tactical

07-23-2011, 6:18 PM

In this case, I believe there is no other choice but for our side to push for nationwide legislation to ban the painting of any firearm to disguise it as a toy. Further, this act should be a felony, for obvious reasons. It is simply unreasonable for this ploy to remain legal, and certainly a Hello Kitty motif is, if nothing else, in bad taste. Perhaps the NRA and those interested could draft legislation that would protect legitimate firearms finishes. It would certainly demonstrate that we become proactive when faced with a situation that poses danger to all concerned.

It would demonstrate we have lost our marbles along with every one else.

I'm at a complete loss for why anyone would want to paint the tip of a functional firearm orange. What possible legitimate reason could there be? It's terribly dangerous and incredibly stupid. It's so stupid we don't even need to count the ways it could be a harm to him or others. Pink may be cute, but orange has very specific meaning when applied to the muzzle of a gun-like object.

In that mdshooters thread, they mention he had a previous run-in with law enforcement where he was carrying a firearm in his hand during a LEO encounter. The guy is nuts and lucky he's still above ground.

This is exactly why The Right People need to establish good case law ASAP. There are obviously morons waiting in the wings ready and willing to screw us all.

Blackhawk556

07-23-2011, 7:21 PM

Is there anyway for us to stop him from appealing??? Our hands are completely tied up??

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 7:24 PM

Is there anyway for us to stop him from appealing???... No. ...Our hands are completely tied up??Yes.

Agent Orange

07-23-2011, 7:40 PM

...In that mdshooters thread, they mention he had a previous run-in with law enforcement where he was carrying a firearm in his hand during a LEO encounter....

Not defending the guy at all but there was a reason for that. He was taking advantage of a carry loophole in that particular jurisdiction.

I'm amazed that even though this guy keeps coming up short (ostracized by the community, banned from forums, permit revoked, etc) he keeps doing the same things. Reminds me of that old quote about insanity.

Alan Block

07-23-2011, 8:23 PM

Darwin will catch up to him sooner than later.

NotEnufGarage

07-23-2011, 8:25 PM

Is there anyway for us to stop him from appealing??? Our hands are completely tied up??

Couldn't someone file an amicus brief basically disassociating the rest of the firearms community from this bozo?

hoffmang

07-23-2011, 8:47 PM

Couldn't someone file an amicus brief basically disassociating the rest of the firearms community from this bozo?

That strategy shouldn't surprise anyone...

-Gene

El Toro

07-23-2011, 8:56 PM

I wonder if NRA-ILA or SAF were aware of this case? Perhaps it would be prudent in the future for us to "buy off" these plaintiffs and get them to drop their case before it creates case-law.

DarthSean

07-23-2011, 9:12 PM

Actually I was thinking the same thing but couldn't articulate it. Honestly, I don't think the guy is stable and would not be surprised to find out he's psychotic and/or a sociopath and perhaps even schizophrenic.
Is there a chance that Leonard Embody might be "Gecko45"?

monk

07-23-2011, 9:22 PM

I wonder if someone could make the case that this person, who is obviously instigating, is actually working for the other side?

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 9:28 PM

I wonder if someone could make the case that this person, who is obviously instigating, is actually working for the other side?Irrelevant. It's not an issue in the case.

RomanDad

07-23-2011, 9:34 PM

Order (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4xDZlk5vthcY2MzMWY2OWEtY2Q2OC00MGEwLWI0Mzc tMWU1YTdhMWU4NDIy&hl=en_US)

How old were you when you were dropped on your head?

dfletcher

07-23-2011, 9:40 PM

This guy is so bad that simply visiting Tennessee and hanging out with actual gun guys will automatically bring his name up in a tone worse than that used in referring to Sara Brady.

It does almost make me happy to deal with Charles Nelson/Jon Birdt/Gary Gorski. Gorski is personally imploding. Karma catches up with people who have no wisdom...

-Gene

Nothing is more dangerous than an ambitious man with no talent .... ;)

Maestro Pistolero

07-23-2011, 10:13 PM

Alright where do we go from here? We know the guy's an ***-hat. It's still a bad ruling, although one can hardly blame the judge for wanting to slap this knucklehead down.

The reasoning the judge used is weak and flawed, but the last thing we want is for this guy to appeal. How do we address the precedent otherwise?

monk

07-23-2011, 10:32 PM

Irrelevant. It's not an issue in the case.

Damn, logic > me.

fiddletown

07-23-2011, 10:38 PM

Alright where do we go from here? We know the guy's an ***-hat. It's still a bad ruling, although one can hardly blame the judge for wanting to slap this knucklehead down.

The reasoning the judge used is weak and flawed, but the last thing we want is for this guy to appeal. How do we address the precedent otherwise?I think Embody will get hammered on appeal. I don't really see the 6th Circuit disturbing the grant of summary judgment.

But I can't help wondering if there would be some way for an amicus to urge that the opinion not be published. I don't know the rules in the 6th Circuit, so I have no idea if that's possible. It might be worth looking into if someone really wants to cancel out Embody.

If the 6th Circuit affirms the summary judgment in an unpublished, Embody loses, but no precedent is created.

HowardW56

07-24-2011, 6:16 AM

Darwin will catch up to him sooner than later.

Hopefully something will sidetrack him before he does any more harm.

Mesa Tactical

07-24-2011, 7:04 AM

I'm at a complete loss for why anyone would want to paint the tip of a functional firearm orange. What possible legitimate reason could there be?

There's no "legitimate" reason, the man is simply trying to make a point. I wish I had that kind of time.

BUT IT'S STILL LEGAL!!!!!1!!

ubet

07-24-2011, 7:22 AM

Whats even scarier, is that this tool has a NFA item (suppressor)! Could you imagine if the draco had been fa?

gunsmith

07-24-2011, 8:19 AM

So, are all Tennessee or 6 Circuit parks now gun free zones?

andytothemax

07-24-2011, 8:30 AM

So, are all Tennessee or 6 Circuit parks now gun free zones?

Not until the Tennessee legislature changes the law. But if the 6th Circuit publishes an opinion holding that parks are sensitive places within the meaning of the Supreme Court's opinion in Heller, that would be a disaster because it would mean that 2A protection doesn't extend to parks. Although the 6th Circuit case would only be precedent in that Circuit, it would be cited by every other 2A case pending in other circuits, especially Nordyke which is pending in our 9th Circuit and presents a similar issue of law. If Nordyke and this guy's case are decided against us and don't make it to the Supreme Court, we're SOL on that issue. In other words, this jackass will have totally screwed us. He's a terrible plaintiff for this issue.

Charlie50

07-24-2011, 8:41 AM

Sheet! Just what we needed another friggen poster boy for irresponsible gun ownership that the anti's can wave in our face.

Maestro Pistolero

07-24-2011, 8:43 AM

This makes me sick. I'm sure the legal minds here are looking at every possibility to exercise damage control but it appears the plaintiff isn't finished wreaking havoc yet.

Wrangler John

07-24-2011, 8:43 AM

The best you can come up with is to add another felony gun control law to the current infringements on the 2nd Amendment. With friends like you ...

Disguising a firearms to appear as something else, especially a harmless toy is not a protection guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. If you believe it is, then I suggest you reconsider your reasoning. Please explain how such a deliberate ruse could serve any legitimate purpose germane to the 2nd Amendment? Kwikrnu already let the cat out of the bag, you can count on calls for such legislation, it is better to be in control of the process than merely reactive. Otherwise you will see restrictions on legitimate firearm finishes before Obama is out of office. There is simply no way to defend disguising a firearm as a toy with universally recognized orange color.

VegasND

07-24-2011, 8:49 AM

You're trying to change the subject. Go start a thread about this topic if you wish. The fact is -- you looked at this situation and proposed another law with felony penalty attached. We have too many gun control laws in this nation and don't need another.
Disguising a firearms to appear as something else, especially a harmless toy is not a protection guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. If you believe it is, then I suggest you reconsider your reasoning. Please explain how such a deliberate ruse could serve any legitimate purpose germane to the 2nd Amendment?

Wrangler John

07-24-2011, 9:07 AM

You're trying to change the subject. Go start a thread about this topic if you wish. The fact is -- you looked at this situation and proposed another law with felony penalty attached. We have too many gun control laws in this nation and don't need another.

The subject is entirely germane to the discussion.

Political naivete and doctrinal purity will get us defeated. SCOTUS decisions so far have pointed out that the 2nd Amendment is not an absolute, that certain restrictions are applicable and constitutional. Had such a law been in effect, Kwikrnu would have been convicted of a felony and barred the possession of firearms. I for one, do not see any benefit in allowing mentally disturbed individuals to legally disguise firearms as toys for any reason. We will see more gun control regulations as the courts define which restrictions pass muster, that is a fact of life.

Maestro Pistolero

07-24-2011, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Wrangler John
Disguising a firearms to appear as something else, especially a harmless toy is not a protection guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. If you believe it is, then I suggest you reconsider your reasoning. Please explain how such a deliberate ruse could serve any legitimate purpose germane to the 2nd Amendment?

Originally Posted by VegasND You're trying to change the subject. Go start a thread about this topic if you wish.
I don't agree that it's off topic, either. But the main point is that we now have emerging bad precedent that must be dealt with and perhaps more to come.

Too bad the OP is unable to comprehend, or simply doesn't seem to care about the damage being done. If he would simply stop now, consult with real 2A expert lawyers, it MAY be possible to have a better outcome. But only if he sets aside his delusions and recalcitrance. At this point, he may not HAVE to go down in history as the one guy who F'd everybody on sensitive places. An immediate course reversal is the only hope. He's either blind to it or a covert anti-gunner.

The OP needs to realize that his actions are having the effect of the worst anti-gun effort, no matter what his intention, no matter how technically legal, and no matter how RIGHT he is.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to have rights? With the right help, you may have both. Without it, you'll have neither in a park.

There may come a time when, after a sufficient basis in case law, there would be a benefit to pushing at the edges of the right to expand it. Doing it now is disastrous.

Maestro Pistolero

07-24-2011, 9:23 AM

I for one, do not see any benefit in allowing mentally disturbed individuals to legally disguise firearms as toys for any reason. We will see more gun control regulations as the courts define which restrictions pass muster, that is a fact of life.Well we know he's more than a little off, but it's doubtful that he meets a legal definition of mentally ill.

I happen to think he's right on the legal points but fatally misguided and completely blind to any concept of strategic litigation.

We indeed should have a right to disguise firearms any way we wish, ultimately. But that is a fight for another decade.

Are we really ready to restrict what color weapons may be painted which are protected items for a potential militia purpose? Camouflage, anybody?

creekside

07-24-2011, 9:48 AM

Legal does not equal smart. This is a propaganda victory for those who seek to ban guns.

I live in San Francisco, CA where there is presently no legal way to walk down the street with a firearm. The "sensitive places" definition could either restore my RKBA rights or damn them. A "parks" definition of sensitive places is a very, very bad precedent.

I doubt that a firearm was pointed at you for the entire two and a half hours.

As someone who has also been jacked up at gunpoint by local police who don't know the law, I have a tiny bit of sympathy. By pursuing this court case in this way at this time, you lose all my sympathy and gain a lot of ire.

Next time, be neatly dressed and carry a revolver. An orange tip AK pistol? Ye gads.

How much does Brady pay you?

I'm not looking for sympathy, just here to state the facts.

Orange handguns are legal in Tennessee.
The draco ak pistol is a handgun.
State parks are legal carry zones in Tennessee w/ a handgun carry permit.
I was detained 2.5 hours at gunpoint, after I identified myself and my gun.
Neither ranger was threatened according to the depositions.

I have an audio recording of the 1st ranger on youtube.

VegasND

07-24-2011, 12:18 PM

If I understand you correctly:
We've got to give up our 2nd Amendment Rights to save them.

No.
The subject is entirely germane to the discussion.

Political naivete and doctrinal purity will get us defeated. SCOTUS decisions so far have pointed out that the 2nd Amendment is not an absolute, that certain restrictions are applicable and constitutional. Had such a law been in effect, Kwikrnu would have been convicted of a felony and barred the possession of firearms. I for one, do not see any benefit in allowing mentally disturbed individuals to legally disguise firearms as toys for any reason. We will see more gun control regulations as the courts define which restrictions pass muster, that is a fact of life.
We may indeed see more restrictions but I fail to see why we should voluntarily give up Rights - especially at a time when we see restrictions decreasing.

Like I said: With friends like you ...

hoffmang

07-24-2011, 12:31 PM

Laws requiring one to not disguise a firearm as a toy are certainly going to be constitutional. Arguments any other way are non-serious. Marzarella (http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=in%20fco%2020100729105.xml&docbase=cslwar3-2007-curr) explained the analysis and those regulatory measures that have no impact on functionality (there "must not obliterate serial numbers") are such slight 2A burdens that they're constitutional.

Requiring toys to have an orange tip that clashes with the rest of the firearm while not allowing real firearms to have the same is going to be upheld under any level of scrutiny as no is saying you can't have the Draco with a non orange tipped barrel.

Manner restrictions are going to be constitutional. The state has real interests in the manner one carries a firearm. It's likely fully constitutional for e.g. a state to require that you use a holster when carrying a handgun in public. Those are the type of "safety" measures that are regulate-able unlike the usual BS "safety" Brady et al are pushing.

-Gene

Maestro Pistolero

07-24-2011, 12:37 PM

We've got to give up our 2nd Amendment Rights to save them.It's not black and white like that. Some of us are talking past each other here. On one hand we have what is technically legal and then there is what's wise and advisable prior to having favorable case law in place.

With the right precedent, I expect in the future that our misguided friend could well carry his AK pistol wearing a moo-moo and a coconut bra and be untouchable.

But now, it just gets us bad precedent that robs us of precious resources to fight a smarter battle of strategic civil rights litigation. Worse, it directly undermines that effort.

All the gains we have had in the last couple of years came from strategic civil rights litigation.

Many the setbacks and unnecessary obstacles come from misguided souls who understand the rights and the legality of things while remaining ignorant of the strategy that is required to get us where we all want to go.

Maestro Pistolero

07-24-2011, 12:54 PM

Laws requiring one to not disguise a firearm as a toy are certainly going to be constitutional.
I offer the following argument, not as a rebuttal, but merely for our consideration.

The reason for camouflage, either on clothing or weapons is to disguise the presence of the weapon and the soldier. The purpose of camouflage is deception.

As dormant as some would argue the militia clause to be, it is still very much the only stated purpose contained in the amendment.

Therefore, standard military practices of deceptively disguising weapons with colors and patterns has a direct correlation to the amendment's only stated purpose, militia use.

hoffmang

07-24-2011, 1:15 PM

The reason for camouflage, either on clothing or weapons is to disguise the presence of the weapon and the soldier. The purpose of camouflage is deception.

As dormant as some would argue the militia clause to be, it is still very much the only stated purpose contained in the amendment.

The people's militia (unorganized) is about the exact opposite of a guerrilla insurgency. The whole point of we the people being armed is to defend against invaders - common crooks and government. This is part of the wisdom I've heard from e.g. Dr. Volokh which is, if you think it's time to take up arms, open the door and look left and right. If both neighbors are peeking out with their rifles, it's time. Otherwise return inside and figure out which box you should really be at - soap, ballot, jury, etc...

Think about it this way. The last time the unorganized militia really took up arms was when African Americans went to the streets of their own neighborhoods in the 1960's to keep the KKK and the sheriff (when he was one and the same) out of their streets at night. Everyone knew who was who...

If things have gone so far that my statements above are no longer true, then laws are the least of the militia's worry and will be ignored. However, the Constitution can't contain a reality that requires a state of affairs after it is no longer in force.

-Gene

Maestro Pistolero

07-24-2011, 1:47 PM

The people's militia (unorganized) is about the exact opposite of a guerrilla insurgency. The whole point of we the people being armed is to defend against invaders - common crooks and government. This is part of the wisdom I've heard from e.g. Dr. Volokh which is, if you think it's time to take up arms, open the door and look left and right. If both neighbors are peeking out with their rifles, it's time. That's a pretty good measurement!

Otherwise return inside and figure out which box you should really be at - soap, ballot, jury, etc...I couldn't agree more. I've said it before: The near enemy of democracy and liberty is not the Brady bunch, but ignorance ands apathy, as long as we can vote the bums out.

Think about it this way. The last time the unorganized militia really took up arms was when African Americans went to the streets of their own neighborhoods in the 1960's to keep the KKK and the sheriff (when he was one and the same) out of their streets at night. Everyone knew who was who...
I would point out that, on a much smaller scale, during the Rodney King riots, the shop owners in LA who defended each others businesses from looting by perching on their rooftops with semi-automatic rifles were functioning as an un-organized militia.

If things have gone so far that my statements above are no longer true, then laws are the least of the militia's worry and will be ignored. However, the Constitution can't contain a reality that requires a state of affairs after it is no longer in force.

Good point. And this is also reassuring in the sense that worrying about NFA capabilities before such firepower is actually needed amounts to useless fretting about chaos we'll never hopefully see. I am confident there would be plenty of patriot/machinists to fill the void in short order.

goodlookin1

07-24-2011, 6:00 PM

Gura isn't my boss and I won't be told what to do.

I don't care if it hurts Gura or anyone else.

My friend just committed suicide this weekend, leaving behind a separated wife and two girls aged 10 and 4, along with numerous other family members. Moreover, his older daughters' birthday is today. Some birthday present. He is the most selfish person I have ever known.

You sir, come in a very close second.

You care nothing for anyone or anything but yourself, and you are hurting yourself at that, even though you dont realize it. You have no tact, no fore-thought out plan, and plainly no intelligence relating to how our court system works. I wish they would slap you with a felony so you are no longer a threat to our rights, and the only thing we have to worry about with is you bringing up some stupid case on lifetime bans.

Just about every one here wants what you allegedly want: To see the 2A respected respected the way it was written and intended. But if you are indeed fighting for our cause, why are you shooting us in the foot? It's so blatant that this will not go your way, that it seems intentional. Why are you bewitched by the delusion that you can win this? Precedent will be set and is near impossible to reverse. All because of you.

So thanks in advance for insisting on your right to be stupid and ruin it for the rest of us.

Wrangler John

07-25-2011, 6:12 AM

It's not black and white like that. Some of us are talking past each other here. On one hand we have what is technically legal and then there is what's wise and advisable prior to having favorable case law in place.

With the right precedent, I expect in the future that our misguided friend could well carry his AK pistol wearing a moo-moo and a coconut bra and be untouchable.

But now, it just gets us bad precedent that robs us of precious resources to fight a smarter battle of strategic civil rights litigation. Worse, it directly undermines that effort.

All the gains we have had in the last couple of years came from strategic civil rights litigation.

Many the setbacks and unnecessary obstacles come from misguided souls who understand the rights and the legality of things while remaining ignorant of the strategy that is required to get us where we all want to go.

Took me a while to get past that bit of imagery, but now that I've controlled my laughter:

My point is that when we, the pro-gun side, see a circumstance that can be detrimental to the cause when abused by zealots and idiots, it may be better to become proactive. Kwikrnu pointed out that every action he took was legal, yet the net effect was to produce a ruling that was detrimental to the cause.

It is the same thing as the Open Carry movement, which calls to the legislative attention a legal, and supposedly constitutional, method of carry in public. It is a flaunting of a right that has not yet been adjudicated as existing with iron clad certainty, or to what extent it exists. The Open Carry movement in California is akin to dragging a brightly painted lure through a lake full of bass - sure to attract some attention.

In becoming proactive, by drafting legislation that recognizes the importance and suitability of certain forms of camouflage, i.e. camouflage clothing and firearm finishes used in legitimate hunting activities, while prohibiting decorating firearms as toys through the use of orange color, and "Super Soaker" color schemes (Hello Kitty), we head off the anti's. We also have an opportunity to protect those brightly decorated benchrest stocks and bright laminate colors. As I stated before, there can be no justification or argument that disguising a firearm as a toy serves any legitimate purpose. However, drafting such a law will require care to avoid vagueness and unintended consequences, as well as careful anticipation of how it may be transformed during the amendment process. Opening a can of worms is a tricky thing. Better we open the can than someone in Sacramento we all love to hate.

Please don't forget that I was a Park Ranger for 32 years, and had no problems with individuals possessing firearms within their domiciles be they tents or RV's, as provided for by state law. Further, I believe this "parks as a sensitive place" ruling to be a travesty.

Jake71

07-25-2011, 6:35 AM

Who the hell walks around with a loaded AK47 "pistol" or otherwise for self defense?

There are no ethnic cleansings going on in the United States at this time. A simple concealed handgun would suffice....

after that... yea the guy's a tool.

stix213

07-25-2011, 7:09 AM

Same OP:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=400741

I knew I recognized this guy. I told him that was a bad idea at the last time, but he went and one upped his idiocy it appears. Fortunately in comment # 50 he says his carry permit is permanently suspended.

From his other thread, tells you all you need to know:

I'm not part of the movement trying to infringe upon Second Amendment rights, that's the NRA. I'm not trying to stop people from defending their civil rights, that's Gura.

Chucktshoes

07-25-2011, 7:27 AM

I popped in from one of those TN gun boards that ol' Lenny has managed to get himself banned from. If it gives you any idea of how sick we are of his antics here, there is another board that I am a member of that banned his username as a preventative measure when it was started. He doesn't just get himself banned from gun boards, he apparently managed to get himself banned from some puppy board as well.

He has been causing trouble here for years. In fact, the manner in which his permit was revoked is viewed as problematic by many here as well. He violated no laws but his actions led to the complaint filed with the Dept. of Safety by the Belle Meade PD. The DOS then revoked his permit because he posed "A material risk". While most would agree with that assessment the fact remains that the DOS revoked his permit without Lenny having broken any laws, not a good precedent for the rest of us. But, that's what ol' Lenny does.

I thought about apologizing on behalf of the state of TN for him, but considering he was born and raised in CA, I was wondering, would y'all take him back. Please?

JB-Norcal

07-25-2011, 7:30 AM

I'd like to propose some kind of organized petition or poll reflecting opposition to this lonewolf nutjob.
"Don't point your weapon at anything you don't want to destroy" get it?

He has been causing trouble here for years. In fact, the manner in which his permit was revoked is viewed as problematic by many here as well. He violated no laws but his actions led to the complaint filed with the Dept. of Safety by the Belle Meade PD. The DOS then revoked his permit because he posed "A material risk". While most would agree with that assessment the fact remains that the DOS revoked his permit without Lenny having broken any laws, not a good precedent for the rest of us. But, that's what ol' Lenny does.

Seems to be a necessary evil for the time being.

gunsmith

07-25-2011, 11:28 AM

but considering he was born and raised in CA, I was wondering, would y'all take him back. Please?

Only if you deliver him hog tied & 5150'd!

OleCuss

07-25-2011, 1:44 PM

.
.
.
I thought about apologizing on behalf of the state of TN for him, but considering he was born and raised in CA, I was wondering, would y'all take him back. Please?

Naw, we've got enough crazies out here. I've lived in TN in the past (Tri-Cities) - there are some interesting folk nearby that he should hang out with. . .

resident-shooter

07-25-2011, 2:36 PM

Has anyone here thought that he might be an anti-gunner who is ruining your work by showing what "might" happen?

otteray

07-25-2011, 8:22 PM

Is there hope that the amicus brief (Masciandaro v. US.) will water down his negative effect downstream?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6839037&postcount=1

Dave A

07-25-2011, 10:00 PM

Has anyone here thought that he might be an anti-gunner who is ruining your work by showing what "might" happen?

This is exactly what I was going to post and question. Is it possible that someone on the anti-gun side of things is actually plotting out ridiculous scenarios to get bad gun law on the books? I certainly would not put it past them, just as we look for favorable fact situations to support cases and situations we want to address in the courts.

hoffmang

07-25-2011, 10:27 PM

Is it possible that someone on the anti-gun side of things is actually plotting out ridiculous scenarios to get bad gun law on the books?

See, that would at least be cool (if despicable.) Sadly the pure #FAIL is strong in this one. Truth remains stranger than fiction.

-Gene

Maestro Pistolero

07-25-2011, 11:02 PM

It seems like Gura was telling the court (in the Masciandaro amicus) to hurry up and get on the record with strong 2A opinions before folks like Embody make their job more difficult.

quick draw mcgraw

07-25-2011, 11:07 PM

It seems like Gura was telling the court (in the Masciandaro amicus) to hurry up and get on the record with strong 2A opinions before folks like Embody make their job more difficult.

Agreed. I think Gura was doing exactly that.

hoffmang

07-26-2011, 4:24 PM

Deleted post edited away.

Even for banned members, personal attacks are out of bounds.

Don't take that as support for his silly behavior.

// Librarian

Here here!

-Gene

gun toting monkeyboy

07-26-2011, 4:48 PM

Oh all right. He probably already read the post, which is good enough for me. I am still ticked at what he did though.

-Mb

p.s. Can I at least sit around and make voodoo dolls of him for my next trip to the range?

hoffmang

07-26-2011, 7:44 PM

I do want to add back one point gtm made. Mr. Embody's behavior is seriously upping the risk of some poor innocent kid with a toy gun and orange tip getting shot by an innocent but worried cop.

That is a win in no one's world.

-Gene

stix213

07-26-2011, 10:53 PM

I do want to add back one point gtm made. Mr. Embody's behavior is seriously upping the risk of some poor innocent kid with a toy gun and orange tip getting shot by an innocent but worried cop.

That is a win in no one's world.

-Gene

I'm sure over the next few years there will be at least a handful of kids who will die, who otherwise would not have if the advisory notifications weren't sent out to LE organizations notifying them of Embody's actions with regard to the orange tip on a real gun. Orange tip means real gun now to anyone who reads the advisory, and kids don't understand what they are doing sometimes.

I believe there is very likely already real blood on Embody's hands over this, but I seriously doubt he cares in the least.

gunsmith

07-27-2011, 11:28 AM

Embody is crazy, plain as day. He can not understand how hurting people is a bad thing because his brain simply doesn't function.

Unfortunately, like Jared Loughner, the system lets crazy people be until they actually commit a crime. He will be responsible for some woman getting raped because she now can not carry in a park, he will be responsible for getting some poor out tourist getting killed because he has to drive through Harlem in NYC to avoid breaking the law & driving thru Central Park.

He also has his sights set on ruining NFA as well as open/concealed carry.
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72743

Stupid people/crazy people are usually the most arrogant.

Stonewalker

07-27-2011, 11:42 AM

The amazing thing to me, is the uncanny resemblance of manner and tone between Gorski, Nichols and this fool.

I really appreciated those quotes from the Bible about fools. The Bible rages on foolishness throughout the entire book. You don't have to be religious to see the wisdom in the Proverbs.

Maestro Pistolero

07-27-2011, 12:20 PM

The amazing thing to me, is the uncanny resemblance of manner and tone between Gorski, Nichols and this fool. Yep.

1. Simplemindedness
2. Inability or unwillingness connect one's actions to obvious and inevitable negative consequences.
3. Subsequent refusal to accept responsibility for those consequences.
4. Over-estimation of abilities; blind to their own incompetence.
5. Arrogance.
6. Vitriol for anyone who offers criticism.
5. Gura is not their boss.

Yep, it's all there.

Funtimes

07-27-2011, 12:27 PM

Orange gun has meant real gun for a long time; there are already LEO advisories out for colored guns, at least there have been on the military bolo board.

Serious. They could not be more foolish if they tried. Textbook definition of a fool.

5. Gura is not their boss.

And this is just EXTRA foolish!

Yep, it's all there.

Don't suffer fools.

AVS

07-27-2011, 4:43 PM

The amazing thing to me, is the uncanny resemblance of manner and tone between Gorski, Nichols and this fool.

I'm unaware of Nichols. Could you recommend a good place to read up on him, or a quintessential post he made?

Oh, and don't forget Birdt. ;)

Stonewalker

07-27-2011, 5:58 PM

I'm unaware of Nichols. Could you recommend a good place to read up on him, or a quintessential post he made?

Oh, and don't forget Birdt. ;)

Birdt is actually Charles Nichols' lawyer in the upcoming lawsuit to strike down 12031. Mr. Nichols writes an Examiner blog and has been a vocal advocate of Open Carry for a few years now. You can read up on Charles Nichols over at the CA open carry forums. There are threads there that read exactly like this one.

shocknm

07-27-2011, 6:57 PM

Embody is crazy, plain as day. ...

He also has his sights set on ruining NFA as well as open/concealed carry.
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72743

Stupid people/crazy people are usually the most arrogant.

That thread is priceless.

Talk about a textbook attention seeker :biggrinjester:

Daddy must've not given him the proper attention during his formative years.

andytothemax

08-19-2011, 11:12 AM

Against everyone's advice, toolshed has appealed the decision dismissing his case. It's case no. 11-5963 (https://ecf.ca6.uscourts.gov/) in the Sixth District Court of Appeal if anyone wants to follow it.

The next event in his case is that his opening brief is due 9/28/2011. He's represented by attorney Phillip Leon Davidson of Nashville, TN.

Peter W Bush

08-19-2011, 11:21 AM

Against everyone's advice, toolshed has appealed the decision dismissing his case. It's case no. 11-5963 (https://ecf.ca6.uscourts.gov/) in the Sixth District Court of Appeal if anyone wants to follow it.

The next event in his case is that his opening brief is due 9/28/2011. He's represented by attorney Phillip Leon Davidson of Nashville, TN.

...Wow. At least he got an attorny this time. This guy is bad bad new. That silencer thread is making my blood boil. Somebody needs to stop this guy.

Dreaded Claymore

08-19-2011, 11:28 AM

Against everyone's advice, toolshed has appealed the decision dismissing his case. It's case no. 11-5963 (https://ecf.ca6.uscourts.gov/) in the Sixth District Court of Appeal if anyone wants to follow it.

The next event in his case is that his opening brief is due 9/28/2011. He's represented by attorney Phillip Leon Davidson of Nashville, TN.

Gene has assured us that this guy isn't a secret anti-gun agent, but this makes it very hard to believe.

stix213

08-19-2011, 11:58 AM

Not this moron again. I wonder how he is going to negatively impact gun rights this time.....

AJAX22

08-19-2011, 1:01 PM

I do want to add back one point gtm made. Mr. Embody's behavior is seriously upping the risk of some poor innocent kid with a toy gun and orange tip getting shot by an innocent but worried cop.

That is a win in no one's world.

-Gene

Many moons ago I had to interact with Suggarman at the VPC in a professional capacity.

He would absolutly count a dead innocent kid as a win.

that guy oozes sleaze.

SwissFluCase

08-19-2011, 7:53 PM

In this case, could we file an amicus brief against him? To me his actions were intended to cause alarm and terror, and the 2nd Amendment does not protect this kind of activity (as affimed by Heller). Most states have a law against going armed to the terror of the public specifically because of nutcases like this. It seems like we could give the courts an easy out by letting them classify his behavior as unacceptable instead of the venue as unnacteptable.

As a gun owner I have no desire to protect this kind of behavior. Legal or not, I want the police stopping idiots like this. If he did this near my family I would have treated him as a lethal threat, and at the very least made a MWAG call.

I don't see why there is any reason why we can't throw this idiot under the bus to save our rights. I'm sure Alan could make a compelling argument that the court can specifically single out this guy's behavior without infringing upon the 2nd. Can we draw a bright line here? If we are going to get boned I'd feel better about setting the parameters ahead of time.

I apologize for the ramble. The fail is strong with this one.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

hoffmang

08-19-2011, 8:01 PM

In this case, could we file an amicus brief against him?

Yes and we kind of already have (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/masciandaro/SAF-Cert-Amicus-2011-07-25.pdf).

-Gene

wildhawker

08-19-2011, 8:17 PM

Yes and we kind of already have (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/masciandaro/SAF-Cert-Amicus-2011-07-25.pdf).

-Gene

Every time I read it I :rofl2:

-Brandon

SwissFluCase

08-19-2011, 8:23 PM

Yes and we kind of already have (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/masciandaro/SAF-Cert-Amicus-2011-07-25.pdf).

-Gene

Excellent!

I am suprised he wasn't charged.

I explained this to my girlfriend, and she made an excellent point. Hey may just be a dick right now, but he seems like the kind that could snap. Seriously, cammies, AK47 painted like a toy, in public, trying to start a conflict, AND an attitude in one convenient package =/= decent citizen.

Give that ranger a medal.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

Patriot Man

08-19-2011, 8:40 PM

so you single handedly got everyone in tennessee with a carry permit voided from being able to carry in parks??

if you're going to do stuff like this why do it with a damn draco, that just freaks people out. yes it's a pistol but cot darnit man you have to think this through! I'm sure this will eventually get turned over because how the heck can you ban firearms in a public area without presenting a 2A violation? I hope you can get a lawyer now!

This is either the most stupid maneuver I've seen or you are the best Brady shill ever invented.

THe last line 1+
Edit-just finished reading most of this thread. No reason to waste time on this guy. I think it's clear what side he works for. Love to see his paystubs each month. I don't think it's "Joe's Construction Company."

Patriot Man

08-19-2011, 8:42 PM

In this case, could we file an amicus brief against him? To me his actions were intended to cause alarm and terror, and the 2nd Amendment does not protect this kind of activity (as affimed by Heller). Most states have a law against going armed to the terror of the public specifically because of nutcases like this. It seems like we could give the courts an easy out by letting them classify his behavior as unacceptable instead of the venue as unnacteptable.

As a gun owner I have no desire to protect this kind of behavior. Legal or not, I want the police stopping idiots like this. If he did this near my family I would have treated him as a lethal threat, and at the very least made a MWAG call.

I don't see why there is any reason why we can't throw this idiot under the bus to save our rights. I'm sure Alan could make a compelling argument that the court can specifically single out this guy's behavior without infringing upon the 2nd. Can we draw a bright line here? If we are going to get boned I'd feel better about setting the parameters ahead of time.

I apologize for the ramble. The fail is strong with this one.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

Well said. :cool2:

gunsmith

08-19-2011, 8:53 PM

he seems only slightly more coherent then the Tuscon shooter, we have to wait until he kills someone before he's stopped?

monk

08-19-2011, 9:19 PM

Excellent!

I am suprised he wasn't charged.

I explained this to my girlfriend, and she made an excellent point. Hey may just be a dick right now, but he seems like the kind that could snap. Seriously, cammies, AK47 painted like a toy, in public, trying to start a conflict, AND an attitude in one convenient package =/= decent citizen.

Give that ranger a medal.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

The only good thing is he was stripped of his LTC. Not sure if they confiscated his firearms but I wouldn't be opposed to be perfectly honest. When pretty much everyone agrees that he's a moron with possible dangerous tendencies, it should be OK to confiscate. It's always a slippery slope though.

SwissFluCase

08-19-2011, 10:26 PM

The only good thing is he was stripped of his LTC. Not sure if they confiscated his firearms but I wouldn't be opposed to be perfectly honest. When pretty much everyone agrees that he's a moron with possible dangerous tendencies, it should be OK to confiscate. It's always a slippery slope though.

I think he really should have been charged with at least disorderly conduct. I think the DA messed up here (unless he knew what they guy was up to). This guy needs a rap sheet.

I wouldn't support confiscation without due process, but he can always be subject to a psych evaluation when he is in jail. He fails, he demands a hearing, he loses, he is disarmed. No due process violation, and it gives him something to occupy his time.

Of course he can still get a gun illegally, be he is also more likely to be incarcerated again (a good thing).

Regards,

SwissFluCase

QQQ

08-20-2011, 10:23 PM

I wouldn't support confiscation without due process, but

Stop right there.

Stonewalker

08-21-2011, 12:06 AM

Stop right there.

Yep

chead

08-21-2011, 3:46 PM

...Wow. At least he got an attorny this time. This guy is bad bad new. That silencer thread is making my blood boil. Somebody needs to stop this guy.

Oh god, I don't know if I can take it, but link please.

Tarn_Helm

08-21-2011, 4:05 PM

Oh god, I don't know if I can take it, but link please.

This :wacko: makes me want to :puke:.

A recognized spokesman for the RKBA community should publish an article to the effect that this guy is rejected by us.

We can all "sign" it by agreeing to allow our CalGuns login names to be cited as evidence of how many hundreds (thousands) of us think his thinking is not representative of ours on the topic of responsible exercise of Second Amendment rights.

Just my 2 cents.
:hammer:

Funtimes

08-21-2011, 6:48 PM

Oh god, I don't know if I can take it, but link please.

What thread?

JohanD

08-21-2011, 8:24 PM

Oy vey! :eek:

mag360

08-22-2011, 11:24 AM

what a nut. he's running around in camo acting like a creep with a video camera open carrying drako's and ak pistols. Not to mention that he now wants to do the same thing with a silencer on.

Wherryj

08-22-2011, 1:22 PM

Against everyone's advice, toolshed has appealed the decision dismissing his case. It's case no. 11-5963 (https://ecf.ca6.uscourts.gov/) in the Sixth District Court of Appeal if anyone wants to follow it.

The next event in his case is that his opening brief is due 9/28/2011. He's represented by attorney Phillip Leon Davidson of Nashville, TN.

"Do you not know the fate of the mantis? It angrily stretches out its arms to arrest the carriage, unconscious of its inability for such a taxk, but showing how much it thinks of its own powers.

Be on your guard; be careful. If you cherish a boastful confidence in your own excellence and place yourself on a collision course, you are likely to incur the fate of the mantis."
Lao-Tzu

Peter W Bush

08-22-2011, 1:28 PM

Oh god, I don't know if I can take it, but link please.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72743

He started a thread asking what holster to use while carrying a silenced handgun. He wants to OC a silenced handgun and get arrested for it so he can sue.