According to the Richmond Times (http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/1/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/), 48yr old Blaine Tyler was open carrying a handgun when he was attacked by two 16yr olds who removed his firearm and shot him with it. The firearm was used in another robbery/fatality a few hours later.

Prosecuting attorney Andy Johnson says that the two teens arrived on a scooter, followed Tyler into the gas station/convenience store at 8:15 p.m., walked in and immediately grabbed his gun and shot him with it.

A different account has Tyler chasing one of the teens inside the store and the teen shooting him during the resulting struggle.

Either way, I thought the story might serve as a good basis for discussion of retention tactics for those who open carry. What might have changed the outcome of this story?

ChrisJ715

December 6, 2011, 03:00 PM

I would think if you are going to carry, open or concealed, you should get some training in weapon retention techniques. Not sure what happened with this guy though, for all I know, the same exact thing could happen to me.

.wheelgunner.

December 6, 2011, 03:03 PM

I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."

The article says, Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing.

If so, re the article, the victim had a concealed carry license, yet was carrying exposed. If he was shot with his own gun, that's a good argument against open carry.

The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White.

To quote Col Jeff Cooper: Condition White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.

BlackFeather

December 6, 2011, 03:14 PM

Without knowing exactly how they went for the gun, it's hard to say. In a struggle, it's difficult to think. Task fixation can get you killed. It's a pity this happened, two lives that did not have to end because of some sociopath teenager.

My personal solution, unsurprisingly, is a knife. Holding your gun in the holster with your right hand, draw a knife in your left hand. "Icepick" grip with the edge towards your wrist. Use it to hook their wrists away before getting some distance and drawing the gun. Yes, it's a perfect scenario, but it's better than panicking. This is a good example of why one should have good open hand skills, or a knife to supplement them.

The teen went straight for the gun. The gun is specifically what they wanted to steal.

A strong argument can be made that if it were concealed, they wouldn't have known he had one.

TailGator

December 6, 2011, 03:31 PM

Perhaps I am reading between the lines too much, but it seems that Mr. Tyler had his sidearm taken and then pursued the person who took it. If that is a correct reading, then Tyler was in those few moments in unarmed man pressing an attack on an armed man. However justifiable that may be, it is a bad tactic. If Tyler had an opportunity to get clear of the situation rather than pursue Smith he should have taken it.

The article is so lacking in details about the fight that is hard to discern anything else. For all we know, Tyler made an admirable attempt at retention but was just physically beaten by a person who was stronger, or quicker, or who had a plan that worked before Tyler could react. We don't like to think so, but sometimes that happens.

C0untZer0

December 6, 2011, 03:43 PM

At the very least his gun was stolen from him, and his gun was the target of the theft.

Whether he was subsequently shot with his own gun - is unclear, but also not that important I don't think. If he had been carrying concealed, he probably wouldn't have been targeted.

MLeake

December 6, 2011, 03:44 PM

TailGator, I expect you are right.

On a side note, next time I am in Gainesville (probably next year, sometime as we still have friends and family in C FL) I can show you some nifty tricks for keeping a younger, stronger guy from taking your weapon.

C0untZer0

December 6, 2011, 03:44 PM

I'm waiting for someone to chime in "that's why it's important to have a back up !"

MLeake

December 6, 2011, 03:47 PM

Loss of the primary weapon is one of the reasons Mas Ayoob gives for why one might carry a BUG.... But Mas also strongly encourages development of SA.

twobit

December 6, 2011, 03:49 PM

On average, (per FBI statistics) 8% of the officers killed on duty by criminals are killed with their own firearm. That is why weapon retention is taught to officers, why their body armor needs to at least be of the protective level of the caliber of their own weapon and why (exposed) duty holsters need to be retention type holsters. Very few CCW holsters have any retention features built in. Not a good idea to wear that type of holster exposed whether you are a civilian or law enforcement.

markj

December 6, 2011, 04:20 PM

A sad situation for sure. I feel it is best concealed so nobody knows you have it till it is needed. is my opinion only, not mesnt to be a guide for others.

Ruark

December 6, 2011, 04:25 PM

I agree - open carry brings with it a high amount of risk. If the grip of your pistol is just sticking out there in the open, it's too easy for somebody to distract you (spill something on you, step on your foot, hand you something and say "you dropped this," etc.) while during that split second his partner grabs your weapon.

Casimer

December 6, 2011, 04:28 PM

Here's a follow-up w/ some more info - http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/01/tdmain01-second-teen-arrested-in-s-richmond-slayin-ar-1505438/

It's not apparent that the first victim was open carrying, though it seems that his gun may have been visible or perhaps he was known to carry.

Bartholomew Roberts

December 6, 2011, 04:34 PM

I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."

The article says,

Quote:
Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing.

Well, given that all the witness accounts indicate he was killed with his own gun, I discounted the lack of results from forensic testing; but I suppose it is possible the two 16yr olds, stole his gun and then shot him with a gun of their own.

Well, if the idea is to avoid being the target of a gun grab, then not letting people know you have a gun is pretty much in line with common wisdom on self-defense to avoid the victim selection process entirely.

The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White.

I think that awareness is important concealed or open carry; but in relation to this incident, it raises some questions:

1. What would have helped Tyler be more aware of his surroundings in this incident. What do you practice on a daily basis to "train" your awareness?

2. Had Tyler suspected he was going to be attacked or even guessed a gun grab might be imminent, what steps could he take before the fight in a public gas station that would have given him an edge?

Here's a follow-up w/ some more info - http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...in-ar-1505438/

It's not apparent that the first victim was open carrying, though it seems that his gun may have been visible or perhaps he was known to carry.

That isn't a follow up story; but an earlier (December 1) story by the same newspaper in the original link. In the more recent (December 3) story, they state he was open carrying.

tackdriver

December 6, 2011, 05:05 PM

I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."

The article says,
Quote:
Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing.

Don't be fooled by bureaucratic copspeak.

This is why open carry is for Texas backyard BBQs.

Double Naught Spy

December 6, 2011, 06:20 PM

If so, re the article, the victim had a concealed carry license, yet was carrying exposed. If he was shot with his own gun, that's a good argument against open carry.

No, but it may be a good argument against open carry in a non-retention holster. Every year there are folks who are disarmed by criminals and shot with their own guns, and yet none of us would suggest that such acts are a good argument for not using a gun for self defense.

On average, (per FBI statistics) 8% of the officers killed on duty by criminals are killed with their own firearm.

If you are referring to officers feloniously killed (versus vehicular wrecks), then your percentage is low. In 2010, 7 of 56 officers feloniously killed were killed with their own guns (12.5%)
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-preliminary-statistics-for-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-2010

If you are talking about just dying in the line of duty, then your number is a bit high. It looks like 160 were killed in the line of duty in 2010 (4.4% with their own guns).
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/1228/Why-police-officer-deaths-rose-37-percent-in-2010

Bamashooter

December 6, 2011, 07:06 PM

I agree that whatever happened its a shame. I also agree that situational awareness would have served Mr. Tyler in this situation. I attribute my situational awareness which borders paranoid to my military experience and the fact that I have been robbed once at gunpoint in Birmingham and attempted robbed two other times. Both times the attacker was not successful. You just never know what these young people and strung out people will do these days. You have to be very dilligent.

secret_agent_man

December 6, 2011, 07:14 PM

Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.

Experienced sociopaths can often approach you totally unawares, and you will never know it until too late. Better in areas with high foot traffic volumes like stores and restaurants that nobody knows you are carrying.

It's somewhat like guerrilla warfare. Blend in with the locals. Don't stand out or draw attention to yourself. Surprise is to your advantage if something starts to go down.

Richmond, Va is one of the most violent crime-ridden cities on the East Coast, a place where you live with thugs. If you live.

A good place to keep in mind the old saying, "Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary..."

More good advice:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/ammunition/2009/02/petzal-rules-gunfighting

old bear

December 6, 2011, 07:37 PM

It's sad that the victim lost his life, but this is another reason I do not support open carry.

MLeake

December 6, 2011, 07:48 PM

I support the right to open carry, but I don't recommend the practice of open carry, and I don't open carry except in a hiking or hunting environment.

pax

December 6, 2011, 07:50 PM

To quote Col Jeff Cooper: Condition White - Unaware and unprepared.

I submit to you that carrying in an open, non-retention holster without some degree of training in weapons retention, while living in denial that these types of attacks do happen, and without a plan to deal with it is in fact the very definition of Condition White.

Having your head on a swivel does no good if it's simultaneously up your nether regions.

pax

federali

December 6, 2011, 08:33 PM

It begins with situational awareness, having the gun totally concealed in a holster that offers some retention value, and then knowing how to defend the gun in the event of an attempted takeaway (gun retention techniques are based upon martial arts skills).

I don't want to step on anybody's rights but the only experience I have with open carry are the employees of a few gun emporiums here in the northeast. They often seemed more interested in strutting around with their fancy handguns than anything else.

As this incident demonstrates, open carry can have some minor drawbacks, such as losing your gun and your life to a determined criminal. I will always carry concealed, even if I move to an open carry state. I'm getting older, can no longer wrestle with men half my age and the element of surprise becomes more important in my bag of defensive tricks as the years tick away. I'm now a bit overweight, have white hair and I may look like an easy mark to a street thug. No point in laying all my cards on the table. They may attack the lamb they perceive but the wolf is wearing a disguise.

1911Jeeper

December 6, 2011, 09:30 PM

It has been said that if there is somewhere you would not go without a gun, you certainly should not go there with one. There are parts of Minneapolis where I am the minority and in particular a gas station that is a known gang hangout. There have been numerous shootings, fights, and one or two deaths there. I purchase my gas and pop elsewhere.

Anytime I stop and plan leave my vehicle, I assess the behavior, demeanor, and clothing styles of the locals. If anyone is behaving badly or giving me the stink eye, I can always go somewhere else to go pee, gas up, or buy a soda pop. If I don't like the looks of anyone present, I simply continue on, and I have done so more than once. Most two legged predators have warning signs that are easily noted if you are paying attention.

If you fail to pay attention (condition white), you risk becoming a victim whether you are armed or not.

.

Tom Servo

December 6, 2011, 10:16 PM

I hate to say "I told you so," but I told you so. This has always been one of my main objections to the practice of open carry: most of the people doing it do not pursue anything beyond the most rudimentary training, and they do not maintain the appropriate equipment or situational awareness.

Not only was Mr. Tyler killed, it appears that his gun was used to kill a second person a couple of hours later.

Hiker 1

December 6, 2011, 11:38 PM

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

Sounds like Mr. Tyler used poor judgement all around. Unfortunately, it cost him his life.

JustThisGuy

December 6, 2011, 11:47 PM

My wife and I both have a Concealed Handgun License but we support Open Carry only so that we are not committing a crime if the handgun is accidentally exposed for a brief moment.

I think it goes without saying that the tiny amount of draw time advantage that open carry provides is far outweighed by the disadvantage of bad guys having immediate access to our weapons.

FireForged

December 7, 2011, 11:48 AM

Just because someone is "paying attention" doesnt mean that they suddenly have jedi precognition or spidey sense. If you are paying attn, you may be able to determine that an attack is underway earlier than someone who is not paying attention but it doesnt mean you will "always" see it comming or always avoid it. I am not trying to turn this into a oc vs cc thread but there is certainly some merit to the debate.

L_Killkenny

December 7, 2011, 12:08 PM

I really don't know what this says because information on this case is incomplete and data considering the pros and cons of open carry are non existent. It definitely appears he was killed with his own gun although the circumstances are a blurry but this is the first and only case I can recall where a civilian has had this happen and I've never seen a case where someone was shot during a robbery off hand because he was open carrying.

The main thing we don't know is what possible effects OC can have in prevention. It's impossible to track. Guys walks into gas station to rob and sees an employee or customer open carrying and walks away. Mugger sees potential victim OC'ing and deside to hunt in greener pastures. How would you track those? Does it happen? I'm sure it could but I'm not sure how often and opponents to open carry don't know that it doesn't.

All I know a person with a gun is less likely to be a victim regardless of his carry preferences.

LK

pax

December 7, 2011, 12:23 PM

LK,

You mean like this? http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/147404-oc-may-have-prevented-crime-leo-encounter.html

Or this? http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Or do you mean, like this story from Massad Ayoob in The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry?

In Arizona, a friend and I were in a convenience store between Prescott and Paulden on the way to Gunsite Training Center. My friend came from a state that then had no provision for private citiens to carry a handgun in any fashion, and was luxuriating in his ability under Arizona law to carry his custom Colt 45 auto in an exposed holster. I was a few steps away when I saw a man walk in, do a double take when he spotted the gun, and deliver a "target stare" to the loaded pistol. Amost in exaggerated pantomime, he mugged an expression of outrage and pointed at the pistol, making eye contact with others in the store that indicated his outrage. And then, that man moved in behind my friend, reaching out for the holstered pistol.

I stepped between them, glaring at the interloper. He stopped, looked at me, obviously decided that whatever was going to happen wasn't worth it, and walked away with an angry look on his face. I don't think he was going to try to shoot anyone with my friend's gun, but he was obviously going to grab it and do some show-off thing, which coulod have led to a struggle for a loaded gun in a crowded convenience store, with an obviously high potential for tragedy.

Ayoob then goes on to relate a personal situation where a "very aggressive panhandler" spotted Ayoob's own weapon. The sight "stopped him in his tracks" and he "turned around and walked away."

My point? This stuff happens. Both sides of this discussion are completely correct:

Open carry does deter a certain number of violent crimes, and

Open carry does provoke a certain number of gun-grabs and stupid or violent behavior from bystanders and criminals.

If you open carry and are not physically equipped to deal with those gun grabs, you're being very foolish.

If you make fun of people who open carry because you think it cannot possibly prevent some crimes, you're also being very foolish.

The guy who open carries without training, without proper equipment, and without admitting that he may someday need his handgun retention skills? That guy is putting himself and everyone around him at risk.

The other guy, the one who just makes fun of open carry, he's wrong -- but his wrongness isn't endangering a soul.

pax

zxcvbob

December 7, 2011, 12:57 PM

OC has both advantages and disadvantages, as Pax has just pointed out.

People constantly talk about the "element of surprise" like it's a defensive advantage. It's not. When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense. The defensive advantage of CC, such as it is, is that you blend in with all the other potential victims.

Carry on! :D

FireForged

December 7, 2011, 01:22 PM

OC has both advantages and disadvantages, as Pax has just pointed out.

People constantly talk about the "element of surprise" like it's a defensive advantage. It's not. When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense. The defensive advantage of CC, such as it is, is that you blend in with all the other potential victims.

Carry on!

:confused:

zxcvbob

December 7, 2011, 01:42 PM

:confused:

The "element of surprise" is highly overrated.

secret_agent_man

December 7, 2011, 01:48 PM

When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense

Insofar as a person is legally defending himself against a threat, one is entitled to pursue that defense until the threat is no longer present. The element of surprise can allow for a more effective defense. It is not necessarily an offensive tactic. In this case, the deceased might not be so if he'd had a second gun unknownst to his attacker.

rex_lee

December 7, 2011, 01:53 PM

The "element of surprise" is highly overrated.
No. It's really not. Google the terms: use of surprise military tactics

BlackFeather

December 7, 2011, 03:30 PM

Insofar as a person is legally defending himself against a threat, one is entitled to pursue that defense until the threat is no longer present. The element of surprise can allow for a more effective defense. It is not necessarily an offensive tactic. In this case, the deceased might not be so if he'd had a second gun unknownst to his attacker.

Surprise seems to me, gone when you have to take the time to reach for the weapon. Whether it's moving clothing, unzipping, or reaching in a pocket. Sure, if they want your wallet and your gun is back there you can go for it, but will two in the chest stop him from pulling the trigger?

I hate to use it, but the OODA loop applies here.

Surprise: I personally believe there's a difference between a "surprise" attack and a "sudden" attack. Does an armed robber or mugger really NOT expect you to want to fight back? Well, if he didn't, he may not be armed. Surprise is what the hunter wants. We as the defenders want a sudden attack. You need not be carrying concealed for this.

Rex_Lee: I have no military experience, so my opinion has little bearing. For military use, a surprise attack is on an unsuspecting enemy. Usually while they are sleeping, regrouping, or on the move. A sudden attack would be against an opponent who is up in arms already, while at any disadvantage, reloading, retreating, or directed elsewhere. Such as by a distraction. I may be splitting hairs, especially as any knowledge I have of warfare is from old Japanese and Chinese texts...

MTT TL

December 7, 2011, 06:46 PM

This is why open carry is for Texas backyard BBQs.

I guess if open carry were legal in Texas it would be. Since it is not.... it would be nice if people knew that.

I think pax pretty much summed it up well as usual. A visible gun may be a deterrent but it is not some kind of force field that prevents people from trying to grab it.

federali

December 8, 2011, 08:02 AM

As is often the case, gun store owners and employees open carry. There was a gunshop in the Bronx, New York, where the store owner was open carrying. This happened perhaps 25 years ago. His store was targeted by robbers in order to obtain handguns for their criminal needs. They entered the store with guns blazing, killing the proprietor before he knew he was in a gunbattle. As the proprietor had instant access to a loaded handgun, the robbers adjusted their tactics accordingly.

Open carry may be practical while hunting but in my opinion, it's a form of exhibitionism when done in public. Try as you might, no one can stay in Condition Yellow, all the time, without interruption. Open carry should only be done by people fortunate enough to have a third eye in the back of their heads. And yes, the street-savvy thugs, with long rap sheets, in the big cities will have you disarmed and begging for your life in short order.

besafe2

December 8, 2011, 11:20 AM

IMHO open carry is stupid.

JerryM

December 8, 2011, 11:26 AM

Since police officers with retention devices and training get their guns taken away and shot with them, I do not think there is any way to insure it will not happen to you no matter the training you have.

Open carry is a bad idea.

Jerry

Double Naught Spy

December 8, 2011, 11:46 AM

The "element of surprise" is highly overrated.

No. It's really not. Google the terms: use of surprise military tactics

No, it really isn't overrated when combined with effective actions. The element of surprise concept is both heralded and maligned depending on who is using it and when. When it is being used for accomplish goals that we perceive as being positive, it is consider to be a shrewd tactic and one that often results in achieving the intended goals with reduced risk. When it is used by our foes, it is considered cowardly and unfair.

Buzzcook

December 8, 2011, 12:42 PM

Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.

That assumes facts not in evidence. I doubt these guys had any special skill at grabbing guns from people. Odds are they weren't very skilled at anything.

JerryM

December 8, 2011, 01:02 PM

I fail to see how the element of surprise is overrated. Surprise prevents you from being immediately prepared.

If you see two or three bad looking people approaching then you can take action to avoid or counter their possible actions. But if suddenly in a parking lot with a crowd one or more is already close and grabs your weapon then you cannot counter it in the same way.

One who OCs is likely to be surprised at any time he is in proximity with other people. I am not sure even the martial arts experts here could retain their weapons if two or more physically strong BGs grabbed you by surprise. But then I never thought I was tough.:D
Jerry

markj

December 8, 2011, 01:32 PM

Its just too bad when anything like this happens. Situational awareness and a good retention holster would be first on my list if I ever open carried in town.

nate45

December 8, 2011, 01:42 PM

I am not sure even the martial arts experts here could retain their weapons if two or more physically strong BGs grabbed you by surprise.

Any credible martial arts system is going to stress avoidance as a key element.

OC, at least in my opinion, is not the most prudent way of practicing avoidance.

Let me use myself as an example. Back in the day I made quite a few 'fighters' hit the puke bucket, just by having them try to go a full 3 min boxing round with me. I didn't lay a glove on them either, other than blocking. All I did was dance around and yell 'Hit me you ____! Hit me!' Granted they were wearing gloves and couldn't gouge my eyes out, or use grappling techniques, nevertheless they weren't in as good a shape as they thought they were. Some of them could hit hard too, ouch.

So as you might surmise, I'm in fairly good shape and reasonably skilled at martial arts.

Now, lets suppose I'm OCing my favorite 1911 while eyeing the dollar menu at McDonalds. Then the man in the following video decides he wants to steal it.

Now what do you suppose I could have done to stop him? Well, short of not being there, nothing.

tl;dr OC is not a prudent way to avoid trouble.

BGutzman

December 8, 2011, 01:57 PM

Martial arts arent magic and they dont create super humans... Martial arts create confidence and skills but anyone can be ambushed or overpowered depending on circumstances.

Dont confuse this to mean martial arts arent worth while but they arent a end all be all to anything.

BlackFeather

December 8, 2011, 02:45 PM

So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

Nate45, what is a credible system?

pax

December 8, 2011, 03:14 PM

So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

If you're doing so in a non-retention holster and you don't have any training in physically retaining the firearm, yes.

It isn't rocket surgery: if you carry a gun in the open, you should be prepared and equipped to defend it.

Prepared = with training
Equipped = with appropriate gear

pax

ChrisJ715

December 8, 2011, 03:25 PM

Martial arts arent magic and they dont create super humans... Martial arts create confidence and skills but anyone can be ambushed or overpowered depending on circumstances.

Dont confuse this to mean martial arts arent worth while but they arent a end all be all to anything.

Good point. I have 25 years experience in the martial arts and it has taught me no one is Superman. Situational awareness is one of the key elements taught in our system.

nate45

December 8, 2011, 03:34 PM

So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

Nate45, what is a credible system?

I was referring to civilians, not LEOs, or others required to openly carry. You take a risk when you put on a uniform and a gun, thats part of the job.

However, be aware there's nothing preventing someone from launching a surprise attack on you, or anyone for that matter.

There are many credible self defense systems. At the core of all of them is the idea that avoidance is your first line of defense. Civilians are under no obligation to enter into dangerous situations, or arrest or detain any individual. They also aren't required to OC.

I have no idea what your duties and obligations as a security guard will entail. If you will be required to defend life and property with deadly force, you better know what you are doing. Weapon retention should be apart of that knowledge, as should situational awareness. When you are going home and stop at the quickie mart, an attempt to take your weapon could happen.

Lost Sheep

December 8, 2011, 03:42 PM

Years ago, I heard about a Texas Ranger who, when working in some situations would open carry a single action 45 Colt, unloaded. His primary piece was concealed in a shoulder holster.

The sight of a Texas Ranger, traditionally armed seemed to help in most situations.

Perhaps a little off-topic or not applicable in all situations, but I was reminded. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Lost Sheep

BlackFeather

December 8, 2011, 04:25 PM

There are many credible self defense systems. At the core of all of them is the idea that avoidance is your first line of defense. Civilians are under no obligation to enter into dangerous situations, or arrest or detain any individual. They also aren't required to OC.

It may be splitting hairs to some people, but Martial Arts and Self Defense systems are indeed different. Your other post mentioned Martial Arts, now you say Self Defense. Avoidance is always the key to self defense, but in Martial Arts you train to fight, defensively and offensively.

You're right, Civilians are under no obligation to enter dangerous situations, or detain anyone. As an armed guard one is really no more than a civilian agent of the property owner. So I have no real obligation, in most cases, to arrest anyone or enter a dangerous situation. The reason one carries is for defense, working a high end casino that could be robbed, I may need to use the gun to defend myself, but why enter a fire fight for money? The Casino likely has a lot of insurance, and will likely have them on camera.

So the reason I'd be carrying is for a higher paying job. Open carry for a higher paying job, is that a poor decision?

I'm not trying to start an argument, and I hope my words don't come across as such. I am really just looking for opinions. Aside from the Martial Arts, I know everything there. :cool:

nate45

December 8, 2011, 05:19 PM

No, I didn't get my terminology mixed up. Avoidance includes not getting jumped by surprise, no matter when.

You say offense, offense against whom? How do you fight offensively when you're unconscious or dead?

I'm not against open carry, or trying to talk anyone out of doing it, or taking a job that requires it. I'm just saying it has the potential to make you a target.

Doublea A

December 8, 2011, 07:35 PM

When you open carry except during hunting, the bad guy or guys have to be right only one time. Nobody is in condition yellow 100% of the time. While it may deter some inexperience criminals it will however inspire some seasoned criminals and situations like this may occur.

We make assumptions that most criminals are very stupid and I bet to differ because the criminal has the upper hand because his intensions are very clear and he has scouted his surrounding and has targeted his prey. By carrying open you have provided the criminal with some options and he has the upper hand again because he has nothing to lose but you do.

Concealment is the way to go because you want to provide the element of surprise should the need arises while maintaining vigilant at all times. Even our well trained and capable Navy Seals go into battle using the element of surprise. They do not advertise themselves to the enemy. Open carry tells the criminal I'm in your way of committing any criminal activity and it makes sense when they want to eliminate the obstacle i.e. you.

federali

December 9, 2011, 11:34 AM

Police officers really have no choice but to open carry. Anyone remember the 1960s and early 70s? Black Liberation Army? At the time, NYPD carried their wheel guns in open top leather Jay Pee holsters, exposed to the elements. The holster came apart during a gun grab and felons refined and practiced their disarming techniques while in prison. Two sets of NYPD officers murdered were Foster and Laurie, then Jones and Piagentini. There were others.

This is the era that led to retention holsters, enhanced materials, steel reinforcement and handgun retention exercises and training. At the time, I knew several officers who carried their wheel guns with empty shell casings in them and a Browning Hi-Power concealed in a shoulder holster. The Hi-Power was the only high capacity auto available.

If young, uniformed police officers working high crime areas can be successfully disarmed, the open carry CCW will fare no better. Incidentally, one major reason for not carrying cross-draw is that the butt and grip face your adversary during a confrontation.

PADefenseTrainer

December 26, 2011, 06:06 AM

I'll have to agree with the general sentiment that, although I support the right to open carry, I don't recommend it.

It also reminds me of the rule "Don't drink while you have a gun on you". Not only is it not safe, if someone in a bar sees your gun, he may try to take it from you (Imagine a firefight in a bar men's room).

Drugs and guns are the only things I know of that have a higher "street value" than "retail value".

Walking around with an exposed firearm may actually attract violence, which is not the goal.

TailGator makes a valid point here "... Mr. Tyler had his sidearm taken and then pursued the person who took it. If that is a correct reading, then Tyler was in those few moments in unarmed man pressing an attack on an armed man. However justifiable that may be, it is a bad tactic. If Tyler had an opportunity to get clear of the situation rather than pursue Smith he should have taken it. "

But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing (while agreeing it's not smart).

I feel that carrying a firearm is a serious responsibility. And if someone takes possession of my gun - it's STILL my responsibility.

excelerater

December 26, 2011, 06:42 AM

I have a hard time beliving the story.....sounds very fishy

Ben Towe

December 26, 2011, 08:27 AM

I believe in the right to open carry. That said, the actual practice is not a great idea without a high level retention holster. You cannot see behind you, even if you are on high alert. Perhaps one day there will be enough carriers that the danger is negated, until then, it's a good idea to be concealed in 90% of cases. You can defend OC in any number of ways, but there is an inherit danger with relatively low numbers of the population carrying firearms. In most instances, statistically, there will be no one to back you up. That's a real problem for me.

Hook686

December 26, 2011, 06:54 PM

I think if some people were as fine and upstanding as some of the folks on this board seem to think some folks are, and other folks are as rotten and untrustworthy as some folks on this board seem to think they are, that it would be no problem if we could quickly identify which is which. If that day ever happens there would be no need for guns would there ?

Fear seems to blind us all. It is easy to identify those that live in fear.

wayneinFL

January 1, 2012, 04:45 PM

I don't think I would ever open carry, but I don't see it as a bad practice. The way I see it there are disadvantages and advantages to both concealed and open carry.

Concealed carry:

Disadvantages:

You need appropriate training to draw a sidearm from concealment.

You need appropriate equipment, such as a smaller gun or a concealment holster.

You have to realize that there is no deterrent effect, because criminals do not know you are armed. You may become a target because the perception is that you don't have a gun.

Advantages:

Element of surprise.

You can carry into places that might hassle an open carrier.

Criminals are less likely to grab your gun before a confrontation starts.

Open carry:

Disadvantages:

You need appropriate training to protect a sidearm from a grab or draw from a retention holster.

You need appropriate equipment, such as a retention holster.

You may become a target because criminals know you have a gun.

Your sidearm is arguably more accessible to criminals.

Advantages:

Some criminals will see you have a gun and avoid you.

Size is less of a factor in selecting a sidearm.

Sidearm is arguably more accessible to you.

Survivor2012

January 23, 2012, 09:04 PM

That incident was very unfortunate; however I don’t want anybody else to get discouraged on open carrying based on that incident. Serpa holster by Black hawk could have avoided this situation.

Glenn E. Meyer

January 26, 2012, 03:41 PM

Serpas need extensive training in use - does the open carry civilian do that? There are very unfortunate accidents with these under stress which may or may not be prevented by training. We've had two shoot themselves with such in local matches.

Thus, strapping on a Serpa without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.

hangglider

January 26, 2012, 03:54 PM

@Lost sheep--that is a great idea! I love the idea of deception. Ironically, I suspect this might result in a trumped up "entrapment" charge if someone actually shot a BG that grabbed a decoy.

Don P

January 26, 2012, 07:03 PM

The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White.

As cold as it sounds the quote is on the money. Just my thought on this along with the above is a way of retention in the holster

Serpas need extensive training in use - does the open carry civilian do that? There are very unfortunate accidents with these under stress which may or may not be prevented by training. We've had two shoot themselves with such in local matches.

3 here in FLA shot themselves and one was a deputy sheriff. No longer allowed Serpas at our matches.

DasGuy

January 27, 2012, 07:30 PM

3 here in FLA shot themselves and one was a deputy sheriff. No longer allowed Serpas at our matches.

Are Glocks banned too? ;)

They should add more materal to the release button. The idea is to keep your finger straight along the side of the holster, but how it is now it's easy to push in on the button and get your finger inside the trigger gaurd when you draw.

Edward429451

January 27, 2012, 08:48 PM

I will agree that situational awareness and avoiding condition White are of utmost importance wile OC. I live in an open carry state, and persevere to open carry as opposed to going down getting my permit, which I'm sure they would give me. A stubborn American thing. I have lived here since '89 and nary a weapons charge ever for me.

You better not be in condition White while carrying a weapon in any mode. Open carry is precarious and has risks. You must pay attention to whats going on around you. The new laws include brandishing and you can't scare grandma or your life is over with Legal troubles now. This may be a bigger risk (statistically) than being attacked violently. All the have to say it was a black gun, and if yours is dark, guess who's going to jail?

So everyday open carry really means that very few ever get to see it. You never can tell who in a crowd may get terrified at the sight of a weapon being carried, so I have deduced that the prudent course of action is to not let the general populace see it at all, but I make sure that any Policeman that I encounter can easily see it if it looks like we are going to be talking. So far, so good. I find that generally, the older officers are more reasonable calmer individuals, and the younger officers usually get hyped up at the sight of a weapon. I get really scared when younger officer pulls me over because when he feels tension at the sight of the weapon, he usually mods his behavior to the more authoritarianism mode which is...discouraging. I really respect the older officers who are more calm and better at reading people and see me and not just the gun. :)

Don P

January 29, 2012, 06:37 PM

Are Glocks banned too?

Not yet, but we're workin on it:eek: Our Range Director/owner feels if a LE officer can do it certainly a civilian is capable. Just one less thing to have to be concerned about owning/running/insuring a private range. After all safety is Job 1 !!:cool:

orionengnr

January 29, 2012, 08:11 PM

I support the right to open carry, but I don't recommend the practice of open carry, and I don't open carry
Bingo. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it a good idea.

Jeff22

January 29, 2012, 09:27 PM

I have always felt that open carry in public is a terrible idea.

If you are in your home, on your property, or in your place of business, that's different.

Just walking around on the street open carrying? Many of the people who do this are attention whores. If you are serious about self defense, get a quality gun, get a good holster, get some quality training, practice frequenty, and carry concealed.

The fact your weapon is concealed is a tactical advantage for you and I believe that it outweighs the potential deterrent effect of open carry.

Nnobby45

January 29, 2012, 09:34 PM

Serpas need extensive training in use - does the open carry civilian do that? There are very unfortunate accidents with these under stress which may or may not be prevented by training. We've had two shoot themselves with such in local matches.

Thus, strapping on a Serpa without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.
__________________

That's not all. John Farnam doesn't allow them in his courses. He cited incidents where the mechanism was jammed up by a twig. I believe they occurred in the more rigorous envirnonment of combat zones.

Nnobby45

January 29, 2012, 09:39 PM

Either way, I thought the story might serve as a good basis for discussion of retention tactics for those who open carry. What might have changed the outcome of this story?

Yes, but that won't persaude the OC advocates to rethink their position.

There are two things that are obvious about OC.

1. Most criminal elements will stear clear of you, and you're safer in that regard.

2. Some won't and they'll have the tactical advantage if they want to take you down, and you may not see it coming. With those individuals, you're in more danger than ever.

The individual who was murdered was not an intended victim until his gun was spotted by a couple of opportunists.

Nnobby45

January 29, 2012, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by BlackFeather
So, if I have my license to carry a firearm on duty as a security guard, I'm doing something stupid?

Nate45, what is a credible system?

NO, some personnel can be assumed to be armed so it may not make much difference if it's CCW or OC. Gun shop owners, Jewelry Store owners, and so on. And, of course, security guards, bank guards, armored car, etc. There are risks associated with the job. People like yourself aren't going to be the victims of some one just passing by where you don't see it coming. And you know that your uniform will attract attention off duty and, I hope, act accordingly.

Info on the Serpa problems. I think that civilians who OC and trust on the Serpa as a means of protection and not are extremely well practiced are at risk. Point I made before.

sigshepardo

January 30, 2012, 03:39 PM

I won't openly carry, simply because things like this can happen. I see it as an invitation to disaster. I believe that if you carry, nobody else should know.

pax

January 31, 2012, 09:56 AM

Let me repeat my first point for those who missed it: if you open carry and have no training in gun retention skills, especially if you carry in a regular, non-retention holster, you are in Condition White.

Having your head on a swivel does no good when it's simultaneously up your nether regions.

pax

Glenn E. Meyer

January 31, 2012, 11:37 AM

I didn't need that image, Pax - yuk!

But it's a good point. I think some folks overestimate their situational awareness and how you can get crowded in real life.

MTT TL

January 31, 2012, 12:56 PM

Lots of Serpa hate. Odd, I carried them for three tours without an issue. I did practice a lot though. I'd never even heard of people shooting themselves with them till now (although you do get the occasional ND). I think blaming the equipment is kind of like blaming a motorcycle for getting into crashes.

Wearing a gun openly is kind of like wearing lots of bling. Someone will see it eventually and want to snatch it. The results unfortunately are much more fatal.

Mike1234

January 31, 2012, 01:07 PM

"Having your head on a swivel does no good when it's simultaneously up your nether regions."

That needs to be a sig. :D

Glenn E. Meyer

January 31, 2012, 02:56 PM

It's easy to say that training trumps bad equipment design but that is a cliche that denies years of human factors work on errors. Bad design facilitates errors.

IrishBluEyes51

January 31, 2012, 03:15 PM

Every possible comment has already been made except the most obvious.

Me thinks too many have gone ahead and secured a concealed carry license for all the wrong reasons. then have further compounded the problem by deciding to open carry. Gun control proponents are always looking for more support for their arguments and those who carry in public either openly or concealed are in the position to supply or deny fuel to those arguments.

Law enforcement officers are required to carry, Private citizens are not. therefore you have moral requirement to be virtually perfect in your approach, training and commitment to guarantee your choice to carry won't be turned into a vote for gun control.

It's very hard to have a constant state of vigilance on all quarters 100% of the time when open carrying and your age can make you a target if you are older and look physically an easy target to strong arm a gun away from you.

A warning story to all of us to stay aware and alert to threats working their way towards us at all times.

Concealed carry,open carry or unarmed too.

dec41971

February 8, 2012, 10:56 PM

Being armed can sometimes give one a false sense of security leading one to relax in a place they'd otherwise be alert.

Nanuk

February 9, 2012, 12:24 PM

Irish, I don't follow your reasoning. What is the right reason?

Please explain your cryptic message.

I am against open carry. That has been beat to death at least twice in this thread.

I will say it;

A back up gun may have afforded the victim some assistance, but considering that his Ooda loop was compromised when he was attacked there was likely nothing aside from outside intervention that could have saved him.

I cannot tell you how many cops I have seen flash their gun around when in plain clothes. Feds seem to be the worse. With the exception of one faux paus 25 years ago, no one has ever made me carrying off duty.

JerryM

February 9, 2012, 01:46 PM

I tend to agree with Irish. It is my opinion that some just want to show that they have and can carry a gun.
Jerry

Double Naught Spy

February 9, 2012, 04:52 PM

Me thinks too many have gone ahead and secured a concealed carry license for all the wrong reasons. then have further compounded the problem by deciding to open carry. Gun control proponents are always looking for more support for their arguments and those who carry in public either openly or concealed are in the position to supply or deny fuel to those arguments.

Law enforcement officers are required to carry, Private citizens are not. therefore you have moral requirement to be virtually perfect in your approach, training and commitment to guarantee your choice to carry won't be turned into a vote for gun control.

No offense taken, but there is no way that I am going to carry a gun based on what somebody else perceives as being right or wrong in regard to the political issue of gun control. That issue could not be further from my mind when it comes to determining what I carry, how, and when. I will carry in whatever manner I see fit that his legal and is salient to my needs.

It is my opinion that some just want to show that they have and can carry a gun.

Interesting. In other threads where folks have open carried as a demonstration of their 2nd Amendment rights, the people are heralded as patriots...carrying a gun just because they can...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371632&highlight=open+carry+obama+speech

markj

February 9, 2012, 05:16 PM

the people are heralded as patriots

Never heard that from me, I say conceal it so no one knows you got it. Take the element of surprise out of the equation and you got nothing on your side.

I too belive a lot of young folk do this to show off or say I am armed and a dangerous person. Until it is taken away and used against them.

I would really worry about that if I opened carried in public.

MLeake

February 9, 2012, 11:58 PM

I can see some, limited, value in open carry just as the exercise of a right. Rights are like muscles, in a way - they tend to atrophy if never exercised.

However, if it's done, it should be done in a discreet, non-threatening, and AWARE manner.

For myself, I only open carry, if at all, in rural/woodland settings, where I'm not concerned about public perceptions but might be concerned about things surprising me. (Then again, if I lived in an area where OC was not only legal, but "normal," I might change my mind in hot weather.)

Open carry allows a faster draw, and more comfortable clothing selection, especially where larger handguns are concerned.

AdamSean

February 15, 2012, 01:38 AM

Having fast access to your weapon is important, but as crowded as this world is, it makes me nervous when people brush up against me in a line. I tend to favor a Blackhawk Serpa holster with the push-button retention. It is less likely someone can take my weapon from me. I also tend to drop an elbow on top of it when close to others. Some practice with a friend can help one learn some retention methods too. Just be sure you weapon is unloaded during practice. I have seen people practice these techniques with an Airsoft BB gun too. That way it is as real as can be and still be safe.

9mm

February 15, 2012, 01:50 AM

and this accounts for like 0.01% of Open carriers, how many cops get their guns taken and how many open carriers get guns taken?

*note bad part of town
*after dark
*bad holster?

Maybe tyler was too young to apply for a ccw permit, I know thats why the younger guys carry in states allow open carry, no permit 21 waitting around.

We could change the topic to, "states need to lower CCW age to 18 so things like this wouldn't happen"

Some people don't get permits also due to the fact "government data base" paranoide.

A few more weeks I can apply for my permit and I know I will be done(for the most part) with open carrying, rarely I will do it.

Bartholomew Roberts

February 15, 2012, 07:48 AM

Maybe tyler was too young to apply for a ccw permit, I know thats why the younger guys carry in states allow open carry, no permit 21 waitting around.

As the first post pointed out, Tyler was 48yrs old - and still apparently lacked the judgment, awareness and skills necessary to open carry.

Daugherty16

February 15, 2012, 11:31 AM

I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.

There are certain potential advantages to OC, but to me they are outweighed by the disadvantages. I only do it around the house or out in the woods - when i am virtually assured of being alone. Everywhere else, it's concealed, and i won't ever trade away that advantage. A gun coming out of nowhere, in the hands of someone previously perceived as a victim, or shots fired from a coat pocket - is EXACTLY what i want to accomplish if i ever have to use lethal force in self-defense. I hope i never do but if so, i want the element of surprise on my side, or if surprise is lost because my SA failed me, i want the potential ability to regain it that OC doesn't offer. Just like a karate master doesn't wear his blackbelt out into the world, my firearm will remain out of sight unless i truly and urgently need it.

Growing up in an era where a fistfight settled even serious disagreements, now it seems inner-city style murder for nothing has invaded every quiet suburban area throughout the country. Today it seems reasonable to me for any law-abiding citizen to carry for self and family defense reasons, but i believe the need is even stronger for women and older citizens, who are logically and statistically more likely to be selected as victims. I still contend CC offers the greater advantages. It could even be argued that an otherwise attractive victim with an openly-carried pistol might be viewed by a thug as an easy source of a free gun.

What we really need are more shall-issue states and national reciprocity. John Lott shows pretty clearly the link between shall-issue laws and a marked decrease in violent crime in More Guns, Less Crime. If criminals can't tell WHO might be carrying, they perceive greater personal risk in attacking anyone. But until violent crime drops to zero, or until all law-abiding citizens carry, I won't be advertising.

kazanski612

February 16, 2012, 01:43 PM

I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.
I totally agree. Nearly every civilian I've met who open carries does so either to make a political point or to draw attention to themselves.

No thanks.

jgcoastie

February 17, 2012, 09:08 AM

Thus, strapping on a Serpa without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.

Thus, strapping on a gun without much, much practice (and does Oscar Open-Carry do that) is a tad risky.

Fixed it for you.

Some equipment can make the act of carrying more risky. However, you imply that the SERPA holster singlehandedly makes carrying a gun risky. Carry was risky before any particular holster design, it still is today, and it will still be a risky act long after certain holsters and other equipment have long faded from our memories.

As long as you have a gun, there's a criminal or politician out there that wants it and will take it given the opportunity.

It's the act of carrying that is risky, though certain practices and equipment choices may compound that risk in certain situations.

There's an active thread on SERPA holsters in T&T.

Glenn E. Meyer

February 17, 2012, 11:15 AM

No, I was making a specific point that Serpas may have an affordance that leads to an ND. It is argued by some that this problem may be solved by practice with where to put your finger.That's a debate from the human factors literature. Practice doesn't solve everything but some gun folks suggest that.

It does go against other literature.

Thus, OC in general has risks - an untrained person with a Serpa adds to that.

If you want my opinion that folks who carry should be trained - of course. Should it be the law - that's another thread.

zincwarrior

February 17, 2012, 12:10 PM

Open carry may be practical while hunting but in my opinion, it's a form of exhibitionism when done in public. Try as you might, no one can stay in Condition Yellow, all the time, without interruption. Open carry should only be done by people fortunate enough to have a third eye in the back of their heads. And yes, the street-savvy thugs, with long rap sheets, in the big cities will have you disarmed and begging for your life in short order.

In a rural environment I have no problem with open carry. Indeed it is (or was) legal to carry long guns in most regions of Texas, and when I grew up, every pickup had a shotgun or rifle in the rack. Its good for snakes and varmints of either the four or two legged variety. In an urban or suburban setting though, to me thats an invitation to trouble.

Jamie B

February 17, 2012, 01:08 PM

I have always seen OC - the optional kind, not LEOs or others required to OC - as making a statement. Maybe it's standing up for 2A or trying to shock people, maybe it's a testosterone thing, maybe it's an old guy advising the world he still should be feared. It could be a lot of things, but if we're talking about optional OC - when concealed carry is also a legal option - I will always believe the OC'er is trying to send a message. To me, advertising that i carry a gun is antithetical to my reasons for carrying.
I completely agree!

MLeake

February 17, 2012, 09:39 PM

On the rare occasions when I've open carried, I've been hunting or hiking. Guess I was making a statement to the wildlife... at the time I just thought I was going for comfort and convenience.

While I am sure many open carriers are "making a statement," I'm equally sure that several of those launching the verbal assault on open carriers and their motives are "projecting."