Malcolm wrote:But if you start insisting people must conform to your limitations, I will point out that this is not so.

M

I have not insisted others to conform to anything. I merely pointed out that (a) most of us have a lot of limitations, (b) we should be honest and aware of it as much as we can, (c) please don't diss the lower yanas, since they are precious in helping us overcome limitations.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

Malcolm wrote:But if you start insisting people must conform to your limitations, I will point out that this is not so.

M

I have not insisted others to conform to anything. I merely pointed out that (a) most of us have a lot of limitations, (b) we should be honest and aware of it as much as we can, (c) please don't diss the lower yanas, since they are precious in helping us overcome limitations.

On the contrary, you have insisted most assidously that people cannot practice Dzogchen even if they have received direct introduction. This is a completely misguided idea. In Dzogchen teachings we discover our limitations so we can go beyond them-- we do not decide to remain in our limitations.

I have not even mentioned other yānas apart from correcting your perception of the purpose of the SMS base level.

Malcolm wrote:But if you start insisting people must conform to your limitations, I will point out that this is not so.

M

I have not insisted others to conform to anything. I merely pointed out that (a) most of us have a lot of limitations, (b) we should be honest and aware of it as much as we can, (c) please don't diss the lower yanas, since they are precious in helping us overcome limitations.

I have not even mentioned other yānas apart from correcting your perception of the purpose of the SMS base level.

No, but I wasn't responding to you initially, so that message wasn't meant for you.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

Malcolm wrote:On the contrary, you have insisted most assidously that people cannot practice Dzogchen even if they have received direct introduction. This is a completely misguided idea. In Dzogchen teachings we discover our limitations so we can go beyond them-- we do not decide to remain in our limitations.

No, I have not said such a thing. What I said was that even if they receive DI, they do not necessarily experience rigpa (in fact, my opinion is that most people don't). This shows they have limitations and have to work on them. How do they work on them? They apply teachings for other yanas. But they have to know about these yanas first before they can apply, hence the teachings of other yanas are important.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

Malcolm wrote:Real Dzogchen, as has been pointed out infinite times, starts with direct introduction, and that is all.

Doesn't Real Dzogchen start with rigpa?

I see it the same way as the Bodhisattva path. Real Bodhisattva path really starts with the 1st Bhumi as an arya - the others are just aspiring Bodhisattvas. Nothing wrong with that - in fact it is commendable. So Real Dzogchen really only starts with 1st flash of rigpa, but there is nothing wrong with continuing practice as an aspiring Dzogchenpa.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

Malcolm wrote:Real Dzogchen, as has been pointed out infinite times, starts with direct introduction, and that is all.

Doesn't Real Dzogchen start with rigpa?

No, it starts with direct introduction. Thus, we have the first of Garab Dorje's threes statements.

If Dzogchen started with rigpa, it would be impossble for people who are ignorant to be introduced to their own nature. But because it is possible to introduce people to that nature, Dzogchen starts with direct introduction.

pueraeternus wrote:Real Bodhisattva path really starts with the 1st Bhumi as an arya - the others are just aspiring Bodhisattvas.

This is also false. The true bodhisattva path starts with the path of accumulation i.e. sambharamarga. This is why it is stated quite clearly that a beginning bodhisattva who has just given rise to supreme bodhicitta on the path of accumulation is much superior to an Arhat.

Basically, every path starts with its mode of entry -- for Hināyāna it is taking a vow. For Mahāyāna it creating bodhicitta. For Vajrayāna it is taking an initiation. For Dzogchen it is receiving direct introduction.

You do not have to receive all these other rites of vows and so on however to enter into Dzogchen teachings. It is completely unnecessary.

Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm wrote:Real Dzogchen, as has been pointed out infinite times, starts with direct introduction, and that is all.

Doesn't Real Dzogchen start with rigpa?

No, it starts with direct introduction. Thus, we have the first of Garab Dorje's threes statements.

If Dzogchen started with rigpa, it would be impossble for people who are ignorant to be introduced to their own nature. But because it is possible to introduce people to that nature, Dzogchen starts with direct introduction.

M

But the student must discover their primordial state upon DI. If not, the introduction failed (or rather, the student failed to see his nature)

If the introduction failed, they can't go on to the 2nd statement "Do not remain in doubt". Hence at this point they have to work with their situation and limitations so that they may be successful the next time.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

heart wrote:I have understood that the qualities of the Dzogchen practitioners are mentioned quite clearly in the Dzogchen Tantra's themselves. Malcolm, perhaps you could sum up the most important points? Personally I think that before meeting Dzogchen my studies of Dharma made less sense. Everything in sutra and tantra make sense in the light of Dzogchen, but this is perhaps not the experience of everyone in this forum.

/magnus

Listen well to my demonstration of the sublime method! There is no increase or decrease in true wisdom. There is no clarity or lack of clarity in the appearances of wisdom. There is no near or far on the path of secret mantra. There is no greater or smaller in the self-appearing. There is no sharp or dull in the capacity of sentient beings.

-- Rig pa rang drol

Nice quote, but that is hardly everything I think.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

pueraeternus wrote:If the introduction failed, they can't go on to the 2nd statement "Do not remain in doubt". Hence at this point they have to work with their situation and limitations so that they may be successful the next time.

No, you have missed a critical point. If they did not recognize their real nature from the direct introduction they must move to the second statement. This is the purpose of the methods of semzin and rushan. See page 29 of the SOV book.

Otherwise, if they definitely recognized their real nature through the direct introduction, then they can skip that and go to the third statement, continue in that state. But such people are very rare. So, the second statement means you confirm the experience of the direct introduction by using many methods, whatever it takes, whatever works for your condition best.

As far as people interested in Dzogchen goes, that passage is cited over and over again by many masters. There is another way to divide up capacities in 21 capacities. Apart from the best, the majority of the other capacities refer to when a person is liberated in the bardo, or if one is very average, in a nirmanakāya pure realm in one's next life.

Vimalamitra states in his commentary on the sgra thal 'rgyur tantra:

"...that person of extraordinary diligence will attain buddhahood in this life with the contaminated body disappearing. Even the average person, after taking spontaneous birth in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield, will find solace from that and attain buddhahood. Therefore, merely by entering into this teaching of the definitive great secret one will not enter into the three realms."

pueraeternus wrote:If the introduction failed, they can't go on to the 2nd statement "Do not remain in doubt". Hence at this point they have to work with their situation and limitations so that they may be successful the next time.

No, you have missed a critical point. If they did not recognize their real nature from the direct introduction they must move to the second statement. This is the purpose of the methods of semzin and rushan. See page 29 of the SOV book.

Otherwise, if they definitely recognized their real nature through the direct introduction, then they can skip that and go to the third statement, continue in that state. But such people are very rare. So, the second statement means you confirm the experience of the direct introduction by using many methods, whatever it takes, whatever works for your condition best.

Not all teachers teach it this way. But yes, ChNN does teach that Semde is for those who didn't get it during DI.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- It is not right to say you have to be drafted in & regimented into years of ngondro etc then experience rigpa, even if qualified "for most". Ngondro became established & widespread since the middle ages. Also Dudjom Rinpoche said in modern times many people do not have so much time so he made a short ngondro and even taught it without completion of it to many. Also in ancient times there was no need to wait years before introduction.

- The inner heart essence of all Buddhist teachings, ultimate nirvana tathagatha buddha-nature etc., is ultimately realized within Dzogchen/Essence Mahamudra. Getting those teachings first and/or a DI or Pointing Out helps immensely prior to undertaking the precious lower yana studies. Not the other way round.

- How many people get what out of sacred DI/PO is only known to a fully enlightened Buddha. Quantifying these precious events' results and fruits by beginners like us is futile and harmful.

- It is best not to get too fixated on conceptualizing Rigpa as a target but just relax and practice and integrate mindfulness presence or instant presence of nature of mind's awareness as often as possible instead.

- Masters say even the few who do not make much progress will have a relaxed life and good connections and much more but the majority will make good progress given other capacity stages: attendance, continuity, diligence, essence integration of state & other methods regularly.

- It is not just one master that does this. Many recent masters gave DI & high teachings to all sorts of people like Dudjom, TUR, Nyuoshol Khen, Adieu Rinpoche, Achuk, etc. Masters still do that like ChNN, Tsokney Rinpoche, etc. As did historic ancient lineage masters prior to ngondro etc.

- Also it is not right to say after filtering numerous people through the years a few get rigpa. This is false. Many masters have said lots of people in the world who never heard of these things amongst billions, some say most, experience rigpa at some times. But they do not know what it is and practitioners who do should nurture it and not abandon it like a baby on the battlefield.

- It is not good to make generalizations and quantification of other people and sanghas if someone does not know the above basics. As mentioned, it can turn into negativeness and obstacles.

- One can a) Go through ngondro, 3 roots, tsa-lung, trekcho, thogal etc. or Thogal then trekcho as in Palyul b) Take Dzogchen as a sole complete path/yana (it'S own prelims, 3 series etc. as was originally). Immediate Dzogchen/Mahamudra teachings and/or DI/PO etc. as did great masters mentioned above or the founding founders of lineage did.c) Do both a & b simultaneouslyThe exception being very few masters who emphasize that once under them you should not take Dzogchen teachings from others. But this is extremely rare and the overwhelming majority of Dzogchenpas are free to do both methods or just the one and have many teachers. Which is the historic norm. So most debates on a) or b) are not only circular but completely useless. Do either or both as you wish.

pueraeternus wrote:Real Bodhisattva path really starts with the 1st Bhumi as an arya - the others are just aspiring Bodhisattvas.

This is also false. The true bodhisattva path starts with the path of accumulation i.e. sambharamarga. This is why it is stated quite clearly that a beginning bodhisattva who has just given rise to supreme bodhicitta on the path of accumulation is much superior to an Arhat.

Basically, every path starts with its mode of entry -- for Hināyāna it is taking a vow. For Mahāyāna it creating bodhicitta. For Vajrayāna it is taking an initiation. For Dzogchen it is receiving direct introduction.

You do not have to receive all these other rites of vows and so on however to enter into Dzogchen teachings. It is completely unnecessary.

I think it depends on which system one is using. Those on the adhimukti stages, prior to generating bodhicittotpada are not usually considered true Bodhisattvas.

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

pueraeternus wrote: What I said was that even if they receive DI, they do not necessarily experience rigpa (in fact, my opinion is that most people don't). This shows they have limitations and have to work on them. How do they work on them? They apply teachings for other yanas. But they have to know about these yanas first before they can apply, hence the teachings of other yanas are important.

Actually, such people would most likely benefit much more by diligently practicing rushen and semdzins...