Yeah, but that rised up a question on the italian fb group: setting aside the fact that technically a specific armor is just as is, no modification (Jacobs said that about them), if a gm want to allow modifications, well what about the mithral? I know the question was highly discussed here, but if I allow the mithral, what modifications should one made? Someone says it just alter the stats like normal mithral, someone says that the mithral totally substitutes the original material so you need to apply the mithral modifications to the base chainmail.

Hmmm. Thank you for the link. But how do you get to say that Celestial Armor is priced as steel?

It's a +3 chainmail with fly 1/day. So it's 9k for +3, 5400 for fly (1800 command word x cl x spell level/5, if I did the right formula). I get 14.4k. Mwk steel chainmail would be 300, so it would be 14.7k. I left out with 7.7k, that I hardly can imagine is all in the good aura. Still, the higly better modifiers to dex, seems to imply some other kind of working and/or magic. I can't see how a suit of steel chainmail could protect as a chainmail but can be as thin as a chain shirt and weight even less. So, from where you deduce that it's priced as mwk steel?

Hmmm. Thank you for the link. But how do you get to say that Celestial Armor is priced as steel?

It's a +3 chainmail with fly 1/day. So it's 9k for +3, 5400 for fly (1800 command word x cl x spell level/5, if I did the right formula). I get 14.4k. Mwk steel chainmail would be 300, so it would be 14.7k. I left out with 7.7k, that I hardly can imagine is all in the good aura. Still, the higly better modifiers to dex, seems to imply some other kind of working and/or magic. I can't see how a suit of steel chainmail could protect as a chainmail but can be as thin as a chain shirt and weight even less. So, from where you deduce that it's priced as mwk steel?

For the same reason you deduce that greatswords and chainmail are made out of steel and a bow is made out of wood. They are, unless told differently.

Hmmm. Thank you for the link. But how do you get to say that Celestial Armor is priced as steel?

It's a +3 chainmail with fly 1/day. So it's 9k for +3, 5400 for fly (1800 command word x cl x spell level/5, if I did the right formula). I get 14.4k. Mwk steel chainmail would be 300, so it would be 14.7k. I left out with 7.7k, that I hardly can imagine is all in the good aura. Still, the higly better modifiers to dex, seems to imply some other kind of working and/or magic. I can't see how a suit of steel chainmail could protect as a chainmail but can be as thin as a chain shirt and weight even less. So, from where you deduce that it's priced as mwk steel?

For the same reason you deduce that greatswords and chainmail are made out of steel and a bow is made out of wood. They are, unless told differently.

In this case, we are told the armor is made of silver and gold, not steel or mithral.

As specific materials are named in the construction, alternate special materials may not be used.

Problem is, silver and gold could just as easily refer to colouration, or more likely, to plating over a steel base
True, it's magical, but making armour out of precious metals is generally not immensely effective

Hmmm. Thank you for the link. But how do you get to say that Celestial Armor is priced as steel?

It's a +3 chainmail with fly 1/day. So it's 9k for +3, 5400 for fly (1800 command word x cl x spell level/5, if I did the right formula). I get 14.4k. Mwk steel chainmail would be 300, so it would be 14.7k. I left out with 7.7k, that I hardly can imagine is all in the good aura. Still, the higly better modifiers to dex, seems to imply some other kind of working and/or magic. I can't see how a suit of steel chainmail could protect as a chainmail but can be as thin as a chain shirt and weight even less. So, from where you deduce that it's priced as mwk steel?

For the same reason you deduce that greatswords and chainmail are made out of steel and a bow is made out of wood. They are, unless told differently.

In this case, we are told the armor is made of silver and gold, not steel or mithral.

As specific materials are named in the construction, alternate special materials may not be used.

It is steel. Here's how I get that:

Price = 22,400 gp
Cost = 11,350 gp
Diff = 11,050 gp

Since cost of Magic items of armor = base armor (masterworked) + [1/2 enhancement], and the price = base armor (masterworked) + [enhancement] cost, that leaves the [1/2 enhancement] as the difference between price and cost.

This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

OK, referred to as bright silver or gold. Not as made of ..., however.

This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Seems the UE version has the same properties without being bright silver or gold.

...Often golden armor is gold-plated rather than constructed entirely from gold.

...Gold items weigh 50% more than typical weapons or armor of their type....Armor: Gold can be fashioned into light or medium metal armor. The softness and the weight of the metal decrease the armor/shield bonus by 2, and increase the armor check penalty by 2. Gold armor has a hardness of 5 and the fragile quality.

If gold plated, then the armor is still steel.

If all gold, then softer, heavier, and fragile.
Celestial chainmail is 50% the weight, not 150%. It is not fragile either.

...A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.

So, alchemical silver is merely plated steel.

There is no PRD listing for plain silver.

Looking back at the link I provided, I showed how Solars have silvery or golden skin, which I don't think anyone thinks is real metal. I feel it is that color since they are good, which is also a tag on the magical characteristic of the celestial armor.

Hmmm. Thank you for the link. But how do you get to say that Celestial Armor is priced as steel?

It's a +3 chainmail with fly 1/day. So it's 9k for +3, 5400 for fly (1800 command word x cl x spell level/5, if I did the right formula). I get 14.4k. Mwk steel chainmail would be 300, so it would be 14.7k. I left out with 7.7k, that I hardly can imagine is all in the good aura. Still, the higly better modifiers to dex, seems to imply some other kind of working and/or magic. I can't see how a suit of steel chainmail could protect as a chainmail but can be as thin as a chain shirt and weight even less. So, from where you deduce that it's priced as mwk steel?

For the same reason you deduce that greatswords and chainmail are made out of steel and a bow is made out of wood. They are, unless told differently.

In this case, we are told the armor is made of silver and gold, not steel or mithral.

As specific materials are named in the construction, alternate special materials may not be used.

It is steel. Here's how I get that:

No, it is silver or gold. Here is how I get that.

Celestial Armor wrote:

This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Emphasis mine.

I have a large number of bright silver and/or gold miniatures on my mantle. I guess I need to have them appraised and add a floater on my homeowner's insurance policy as they're made of silver and gold.

The English language is... imprecise.

When the math breaks down so that a thing is steel, while the language of the description can still make sense, that's pretty obviously what's going on.

This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Were I a gambling person, I would bet money that in the CRB description, "silver or gold" implied a color, not a material, and that indeed, the reason the Ultimate Equipment removed that descriptor was because it was reported as confusing.

Cevah's cost breakdown looks completely correct, at least as far as I can tell at a glance. (I am a freelance editor for Paizo [though I do not speak for them here], and I've competed successfully in the first round of RPG Superstar, so I've had to pay careful attention to how pricing works.)

In any case, Ultimate Equipment came out after the CRB, and newest is to be considered the correct version (just as the Ultimate Equipment changes to other equipment negated earlier descriptions of other things that came out in prior books). They probably never officially errattaed the CRB because it is just flavor text. So no matter whether you think the CRB version says it's made of gold or gold-colored, the UE version is the correct version because it is the newest.

Any other interpretation is up to your GM, and up to your GM only. Further arguments should ergo be taken up with her/him. (If you're the GM, then congratulations! You can interpret it however you like.) Trying to cajole or push people here into agreeing with you or affirming your interpretation will change neither the fact that whatever is in the latest book is the correct rules nor whatever your GM determines.

As an aside, in the English language, at least, "silver" and "gold" can refer either to the metals themselves or the color (and in many other languages as well... i.e., in French, IIRC "argent" or "or" can refer to the metals or coloration). And yes, if I say I painted something gold, it is more likely that I used gold-colored paint than actually gilded it with the metal. Failing to acknowledge that the words can mean either thing is either a genuine misunderstanding of language (in which case, now you know) or a deliberate misinterpretation that hopes to manipulate people into an endless and pointless argument (in which case, others should know better than to respond further). I hope to give the benefit of the doubt that it is a genuine misunderstanding and that the OP now has the information he needs to take back to his table and allow his GM to make the final call on the issue for their game.

This is what I get for seeing what's in the "recently posted" sidebar. Ah well.

In this case, we are told the armor is made of silver and gold, not steel or mithral.

As specific materials are named in the construction, alternate special materials may not be used.

Uh, actually, we are told it is silver or gold, not that the material is silver or gold. The words ambiguously can mean either a material, or a look/color, i.e., words silver and gold are both nouns and adjectives.

EDIT: argh, that's what I get for not fully reading all of the posts. ;)

You just admitted you are unwilling to accept, weight, and adjust your world-view based on evidence.

You and Cevah are also. Because there is evidence that some of the money in the item is unaccounted. There is no way you nor Cevah can know that there isn't some magical properly that makes the item lighter and better in some way. Some way that might interfere if you make the item with Mitril.

So if I'm unwilling, so are you.

Thing is, I'm willing. I don't care if you can or can not mithril it. I just don't think the rules say one way or another. We do have developers on record saying you can't.

You just admitted you are unwilling to accept, weight, and adjust your world-view based on evidence.

You and Cevah are also. Because there is evidence that some of the money in the item is unaccounted. There is no way you nor Cevah can know that there isn't some magical properly that makes the item lighter and better in some way. Some way that might interfere if you make the item with Mitril.

So if I'm unwilling, so are you.

Thing is, I'm willing. I don't care if you can or can not mithril it. I just don't think the rules say one way or another. We do have developers on record saying you can't.

James, my specific issue is the wording you used. I've processed the evidence so far and I have my opinion so far. There's plenty you can show to sway my opinion.

It's just... you said nothing can sway you.

I hadn't really intended to post in this thread because I don't much care about the raw topic, but you're generally a reasonable guy. I had to say something about the phrase I read.

You just admitted you are unwilling to accept, weight, and adjust your world-view based on evidence.

You and Cevah are also. Because there is evidence that some of the money in the item is unaccounted. There is no way you nor Cevah can know that there isn't some magical properly that makes the item lighter and better in some way. Some way that might interfere if you make the item with Mitril.

So if I'm unwilling, so are you.

Thing is, I'm willing. I don't care if you can or can not mithril it. I just don't think the rules say one way or another. We do have developers on record saying you can't.

James, my specific issue is the wording you used. I've processed the evidence so far and I have my opinion so far. There's plenty you can show to sway my opinion.

It's just... you said nothing can sway you.

I hadn't really intended to post in this thread because I don't much care about the raw topic, but you're generally a reasonable guy. I had to say something about the phrase I read.

What he said was that nothing can *prove* it is steel. Which is true, no evidence exists that can prove, for certain, that this armour is made of steel. It would have been presented already if this was the case.

Does this mean that it definitively *is not* made of steel? Nope, there are a lot of ways of reading it.

I stand by my assertation that making armour out of pure gold or silver is silly, even with a bunch of enchantments on it. However, given the properties of the armour in question, it would seem that if it was meant to be compatible with mithril, the armour would default to mithril anyway, like similar "light" metal armours (Full Plate of Speed)

It seems relevant, that there are no rules for making non-celestial armor out of gold or silver (that I know of). It seems like if it was made of gold, that would have an affect on the weight. I wouldn't hang too much on such an ambiguous phrase, that was cut when the item was reprinted. I'm a bit rusty on equipment rules; can unique items like this typically be modified? Could I make a cold iron Holy Avenger, for example?

On the other hand, I could see the material being "Celestial," which wouldn't necessarily mean it's made out of Celestials.

It seems relevant, that there are no rules for making non-celestial armor out of gold or silver (that I know of). It seems like if it was made of gold, that would have an affect on the weight. I wouldn't hang too much on such an ambiguous phrase, that was cut when the item was reprinted. I'm a bit rusty on equipment rules; can unique items like this typically be modified? Could I make a cold iron Holy Avenger, for example?

On the other hand, I could see the material being "Celestial," which wouldn't necessarily mean it's made out of Celestials.

There are general rules for making armor out of gold, but the specific rules for Celestial Armor take precedence.

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.

The PRD states the base price is added to the magic price.

Creating Magic Armor wrote:

To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value.Additional magic supply costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.

Magic cost is half of the magic price.

Armor cost is added to get the final price.

That winds up with 300 gp for the masterwork armor.

Gold and mithral chainmail costs more than this.
Alchemical silver is still steel, but plated. It also is not available for armor.
Silver is not available at all.
UE drops the bright silver or gold in the description.

Masterwork steel chainmail does cost 300 gp.

I think that is pretty convincing that the base for celestial armor is steel chainmail.

If you mean the final price should be something different based on the table of effects, then you need to remember that this not only predates the table, but also* likely has a tweaked price since it has been in the game so long.

/cevah

EDIT: * I thought it was 2nd ed, but I can't find it there. Probably 3.0 instead.

You and Cevah are also. Because there is evidence that some of the money in the item is unaccounted.

Oh?

I'm not sure if you really don't know. So I'll add some info to this you might not be aware.

There are a number of item that simply can't be made by taking a base item and enhancing them. Things like mithril tower shields (which need to be wood), keen longbows (which can't be keen), and if you have read up on gauntlets then +1 gauntlets (because gauntlets may not be a weapon).

So the summary is, if you use the rules as a logic puzzle you are wrong about as often as you are right.

So saying the Celestial Armor is steel because you have to have some armor to make Celestial Armor is false.

If they intended it to stack with Mithril they would have called it out some where.

BTW nothing said in this thread hasn't been said in other threads a hundred times. This is a well discussed issue with tens of thousands of posts.

Help me understand... if I want to make mithral celestial plate out of the celestial plate found in Ultimate Equipment, what hurdles exist to bar that option?

CRB says I can make metal armors out of mithral, check
Celestial Plate is a type of metal armor, check

I'm not asking for PFS.

Nothing, at this point. I throw doubt even on the old description, but if that was the only reason for keeping it from happening (and honestly guys, they took it out so that probably means it was descriptive only, so stop finding rules text where it doesn't exist), then that isn't a hurdle anymore.

I don't mind being restricted by the rules. Working within the (clear or implied) limitations makes me use my imagination and tactics to get the most out of the game.

v

I dislike being restricted by the rules because I want to be able to optimise everything and build the character I want to get the most out of the game. I only want to be limited by my imagination so any limitations in the rules must be clear and irrefutable.

Different styles of play that can make rules discussions quite awkward.
I tend towards the former because I started wargaming playing D&D Basic - just the rulebook not the box, it had 48 pages...

Help me understand... if I want to make mithral celestial plate out of the celestial plate found in Ultimate Equipment, what hurdles exist to bar that option?

CRB says I can make metal armors out of mithral, check
Celestial Plate is a type of metal armor, check

I'm not asking for PFS.

It’s a special named item, and it doesn’t note the material. A number of the names items can’t be made normally such as dark wood buckler (which is a light shield that doesn’t match stats for dark wood light shields.) Force Shiekd is another item that can’t be made directly because you can’t make mithril tower shields.

You and Cevah are also. Because there is evidence that some of the money in the item is unaccounted.

Oh?

I'm not sure if you really don't know. So I'll add some info to this you might not be aware.

I am aware of these things.

James Risner wrote:

So saying the Celestial Armor is steel because you have to have some armor to make Celestial Armor is false.

If not steel, what other material can it be made out of for that price? Steel is the default assumption, and the price works. Silver, gold, and mithral have very different prices, so it cannot be any of them.

James Risner wrote:

If they intended it to stack with Mithril they would have called it out some where.

You mean like in the description of mithral* and how you enchant armor? Looks good to me.

* Mithral wrote:

Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well.

You still have not addressed the 300 gp base cost question. Third time: Do you think that number is incorrect, given how magic items are priced?

You also haven't address the assertion that it is steel with magical enhancement to make it better than steel. Enhancement that doesn't stack with mithril.

You also haven't address that this isn't a +1 full plate. It is a custom item in the named item section and a number of sources say you can't enhance those to be magical. For example to make +1 elven chain in herolab you need the community package because back channel Paizo tells them you can't have a +1 elven chain item, so you can't in Herolab.

Help me understand... if I want to make mithral celestial plate out of the celestial plate found in Ultimate Equipment, what hurdles exist to bar that option?

CRB says I can make metal armors out of mithral, check
Celestial Plate is a type of metal armor, check

I'm not asking for PFS.

It’s a special named item, and it doesn’t note the material. A number of the names items can’t be made normally such as dark wood buckler (which is a light shield that doesn’t match stats for dark wood light shields.) Force Shiekd is another item that can’t be made directly because you can’t make mithril tower shields.

You have no rule for custom named items in the rules.

I'm not using a "rule for custom named items" because the rules outline making a metal armor out of mithral pretty well. If celestial plate armor is made out of metal (and chainmail is) then it can be made out of mithral.

Since making metal armors out of mithral is allowed, a rule would have to exist barring specific metal armors from the rules affecting metal armors.

When the item was first created the idea of updating/improving them was not in place.

Flavortext aside I doubt the intent was to give it mithra-like tendencies and then let it stack with actual mithral. The only way to know if this can be changed into another metal is to get an FAQ response.