I notice that only 12 markers are given for Panayiotis Tsakiris and Aristide Marinopoulos, yet it is still possible to be sure that they are in the “Balkan Cluster”. Is this just because of '11-11' at 385a+b, or is there something more?

I notice that only 12 markers are given for Panayiotis Tsakiris and Aristide Marinopoulos, yet it is still possible to be sure that they are in the “Balkan Cluster”. Is this just because of '11-11' at 385a+b, or is there something more?

Yes, I put them in the Balkan cluster for DYS385=11-11, but it would be interesting to get DYS459a, which has a 8 value in the Balkan cluster.

By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on 'Svombos' ~ our apparently Slavic ancestral surname, please?

This is certainly a Balkan cluster, not only for DYS385=10 (from 11)-11 and DYS459a=8, but also for DYS464=13 (sometimes 14)-16-16-17.These haplotypes descend all from a single person and, as they are found only in the Balkans, I think more ancient than the Slav migration. I said to a Serb who wrote to me that he is linked more to Albanians than to Slavs, who probably brought there their language but perhaps a few of their haplotypes (Balkans have also some ancient R1a, I etc., besides E-V13 etc.).

For this I am interested to know how and when this Balkan cluster is linked to my (Italian) R-L23/L150/Z2105+ but L277- and L584-.

... Balkan cluster ...These haplotypes descend all from a single person and, as they are found only in the Balkans, I think more ancient than the Slav migration. I said to a Serb who wrote to me that he is linked more to Albanians than to Slavs, who probably brought there their language but perhaps a few of their haplotypes (Balkans have also some ancient R1a, I etc., besides E-V13 etc.)....

I just read this, from Diana Farr Louis' book 'Athens and beyond':"Yiannis Rerras, a beekeeper in Gavrion with a keen interest in history, maintains that the tribes who first settled in Illyria, present-day Albania, were in fact Greek. As proof, he points to the existence in the Arvanitika dialect of many words whose roots are identical to those used by Homer. He suggests that the language and identity changed over the centuries with the influx of Slavs."

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

Oh, I see. That's one that makes the difference. Sorry, I saw this and misunderstood.

That member name is Andre Kajtazi hes is Albanian from kosovo, not a slav.

I am very sorry, but I must have been tired and got mixed up with the records. I quoted the wrong details for the wrong person. I shall look through the information again. My sincere apologies! Edit: I have now added the correct info below.

That member name is Andre Kajtazi hes is Albanian from kosovo, not a slav.

I am very sorry, but I must have been tired and got mixed up with the records. I quoted the wrong details for the wrong person. I shall look through the information again. My sincere apologies! Edit: I have now added the correct info below.

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

Gashi has been tested for M269, but not for its subclades (except P312 and U106). We don’t know then if he is R-M269* with DYS426=11 (modal for this haplogroup) or a R-L150* with DYS 426 =11, but he should be tested for this SNP.

E16492 Gashi R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+, P312-, U106-

And why Fregola has been put amongst these Albanians? His surname is Italian and his DYS426=13 seems to demonstrate that he is R-L51*(strengthened also by DYS464d=18), very diffused in Italy (probably born here) and practically at 0% eastward of Italy.

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

Gashi has been tested for M269, but not for its subclades (except P312 and U106). We don’t know then if he is R-M269* with DYS426=11 (modal for this haplogroup) or a R-L150* with DYS 426 =11, but he should be tested for this SNP.

E16492 Gashi R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+, P312-, U106-

And why Fregola has been put amongst these Albanians? His surname is Italian and his DYS426=13 seems to demonstrate that he is R-L51*(strengthened also by DYS464d=18), very diffused in Italy (probably born here) and practically at 0% eastward of Italy.

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

Gashi has been tested for M269, but not for its subclades (except P312 and U106). We don’t know then if he is R-M269* with DYS426=11 (modal for this haplogroup) or a R-L150* with DYS 426 =11, but he should be tested for this SNP.

E16492 Gashi R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+, P312-, U106-

And why Fregola has been put amongst these Albanians? His surname is Italian and his DYS426=13 seems to demonstrate that he is R-L51*(strengthened also by DYS464d=18), very diffused in Italy (probably born here) and practically at 0% eastward of Italy.

I read Gashi comment at Eupedia said that Deep clade is still running, most likely to be L-23. Sub-groups "attached" to western europe are tested negative, that includes celts, italics and germanics. Which left these remaining:

The L23- and L150+ results are under quality control at the moment as this result does not fit the current knowledge of the haplotree.

If this result is confirmed it could either be caused by a back mutation at L23 or it means that L23 is not ancestral to L150 but both are rather on the same level below M269. As this would cause a major change in the R1b-haplotree we will have to have a closer look at this.