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Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

The face of this Ravens defense has as we all known been Ed Reed and Ray Lewis for the last decade, and still pretty much is. But as Reed and Lewis get closer to their retirement, Ngata and Sizzle as we all know have became the new best players on our team.

Sizzle just won his first DPOY award, and Ngata is coming off yet another all pro season. Ngata eats up blockers which allows Suggs to come in unblocked and can wreck havoc. IMO there is not a better front 7 partnership than Ngata and Suggs when it comes to defending the run, or getting to the QB. If you double team Ngata, you are leaving Suggs free, and if you double team Suggs, you give Ngata a chance to create a huge turnover.

Both are among the best players in the league right now without question, and are both arguably the best players in their position. You wont hear too many arguments that Ngata is the best defensive tackle in the league, and Suggs is without question the best hybrid DE/OLB in the league. Suggs is going to miss a lot of 2012, but I expect him to come back from this and make people forget that he was ever injured.

Is all this enough to make the HOF? I think if they continue to do this for another four years or so, you could definitely make a case. They are both missing that SB ring, so maybe a SB ring can decide if they get there or not?

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

The HOF is always difficult to predict unless the player ends up with very high numbers in certain key areas. Just look at the crazy log jam at wide receiver. No one was thinking that Chris Carter and Tim Brown would be passed over when they were playing. The votes are very political and these guys really don't see everyone.

If I had to guess I would say that Ngata has no shot unless he gets a lot more sacks. This has become the pressure era and lineman and outside linebackers are going to be judged based on there sacks no matter how silly that is. Cortez Kennedy had 58 career sacks. Ngata has 17. I think Ngata is going to have to put up Kennedy type numbers to have a shot at getting in and that really isn't his game.

Suggs on the other hand is helped because of the same stat. He's going to be over 100 for his career, unless this injury is a lot worse than we realize. Derrick Thomas had 126 sacks. Chris Doleman had 150. If Suggs gets near there with the Pro Bowls, All Pros and DPOY award I see his chances being pretty good.

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

In my opinion, this past season was huge for Sizz's chances at the Hall of Fame. I think there were other defensive players with good arguments to be DPOY <cough>Jared Allen</cough>.

But once the voters chose Suggs, that changed the conversation about Suggs' career, 10 years or whenever from now. Before the award he was a 5-time Pro Bowler and 2-time All Pro. Now his credentials include a Defensive Player of the Year award; plus there's whatever he does in the future. Another couple good seasons, esp if the Ravens win another Super Bowl and he's a key contributor, I think he becomes a serious conversation in the Hall voting room.

If they both ended their careers tomorrow, then no, they don't get in.

Suggs, with his continued success being assumed, would most likely get in but it's a big "if" when factoring in his injury and how it will effect his future play.

Ngata is very good but I just don't see it.

Last edited by HoustonRaven; 07-06-2012 at 01:42 PM.

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

I think the definition of hall of fame is what a player did in his era, as eras change. I think having won DPOY and being a dominant force yearly puts Suggs in that category, maybe even right now. I love Haloti as a player and he has rare athleticism at his size that weve rarely seen and he completely dominates as a player at his position, pretty much unarguably the #1 DT in the league. I dont know if he gets in either though sadly. By the criteria i feel describes a HOFer, yes, but without distinguishable stats i dont think he gets, as only guys that watch every one of his games would be able to see what he actually provides. and even then opinions differ.

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

The metrics for HOF inclusion are changing thankfully. The impact that us statheads have made on the process has become quite palpable.

Media members nowadays can't ignore the data. They can't rely on the "I know more than the above average fan because I cover sports for a living" premise that has carried them for decades. That premise allowed them to justify illogical selections for years and years. Now, with the average fan having access to piles of stats, data, and every game film of every game, you can argue that most media members actually know less about the players they follow than the savvy fan.

The impact of statistics is taking over the sports media world. If you read the articles on ESPN and Yahoo sports where there various writers dissect the mid-season baseball awards, stats like WAR and OPS+ are now used more readily than the older AVG, HR, RBI lines that we are accustom to seeing. 15 years ago, nobody even knew what WAR and OPS+ were. Now they are being used as a key criteria by baseball writers in justifying their selections. In fact, the AVG/OB%/SLUG line has all but replaced the AVG/HR/RBI line as our primary metric for evaluating a player.

Sports writers are still stubborn creatures stuck in the past in many regards (how else can you justify Jeff Bagwell reaching ballot #3 before induction?), but as every 65,75,80 year old sports writer with a HOF vote dies or retires---and is subsequently replaced by a younger, more stat-centered voter---we should see a more accurate and appropriate HOF. Bert Blyleven getting in two years ago was a great example of progress.

So how does all this baseball-related rambling relate to Ngata and Suggs? I think we are seeing a similar trend developing in football...and it certainly helps both players. In fact, it helps every player who didn't have the good fortune of playing on a Super Bowl Champion. Chris Doleman was voted into the 2012 HOF class while Jerome Bettis even make the last cutdown of finalists. A decade ago, I'm not sure that we would have ever seen it. Doleman, who the vast majority of his career for some less visible franchises, might not have ever been voted in by the writers a decade ago. Meanwhile, Bettis with his bloated, misleading stats, would have been a virtual lock on the first ballot. Bettis probably only had one season, his rookie year, where he was a top 5 NFL back in terms of his overall production. Ray Rice already has had two. Bettis was not a dominant runner at all, but rather one who produced a ton of yards by getting a ridiculous number of carries. Yet, he played in Pittsburgh, was a likeable character, and was on a Super Bowl winner. Using past criteria that would have propelled him ahead of someone like Doleman, a far superior football player, and probably past someone like Curtis Martin, who was considerably better than Bettis as well. Doleman's and Martin's induction ahead of Bettis shows me that the days are changing.

This probably helps Ngata more than Suggs, because I think Suggs' visibility factor---both in terms of his personality as well as the position he plays---is much higher. I would put Suggs' chances at HOF induction at better than 50% right now. He's far from a lock, but he's 3 years further into his career than Ngata, has won a Defensive POY award, and has more of a name recognition than Ngata. Essentially, I think Suggs might very well be a viable HOF candidate in the older name-recognition style of HOF induction and also in the new style where voters are focusing more on rankings/stats/all-pros/pro bowls.

In past years, there was nothing, aside from Pro Bowl votes, to determine how good Ngata is. Now there are NFL top 100 lists (which will certainly be a metric used for HOF evaluation heading forward). Ngata's peers ranked him in the top 20 last year and ranked him #9 in all of football this year. There are game tapes. There are discussions on NFL network over and over about how good he is. These didn't exist 20-30 years ago, when a lot of the HOF voters probably couldn't tell you more than 3-4 defensive starters on a lot of the non-super bowl teams. NFL HOF voters know how good Ngata is.

Let's also not forget that Ngata, even though 28 now, still might have another 9-10 years in the NFL. Interior linemen can play forever. Ngata is only six years into his NFL career. He really is not HOF worthy now. He's been the best interior D-lineman in football over the last four seasons by a wide, wide margin, but that alone won't get him into Canton, nor should it. If Ngata tacks on 3 more pro bowls and a couple more all-pro selections over the next three years, then I think he does become a very strong HOF candidate. Right now, he's not there though. To be a genuine HOF candidate after six NFL years, you have to be the elite of the elite AND play the right position. Ngata's play is in the elite of the elite classification. However, unless you're a RB or QB, six seasons of dominating your position won't get you into Canton. We really need to be having this discussion entering year nine or ten and not entering year seven.

However, on the short term, I will disagree with some people who say that because Ngata is a non-sack, run-stuffing type of player, it excludes him from being a viable HOF candidate. If Ngata secures first team All Pro status over each of the next three seasons and makes the top 20 of the NFL player rankings, he's got a very very good shot at Canton. Just because Ngata isn't a sack machine doesn't mean the voters don't recognize how much of a talent he is. If you are ranked as the top player at your position for 6-7 straight seasons, you are a Hall of Famer. End of Story. If you are ranked as one of the top 20 players in the entire NFL for 5-6 straight seasons, you are a Hall of Famer with little debate. Ngata is 2-3 years away from meeting both criteria.

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

Suggs needs a couple more seasons like last season, and it probably would not hurt to have a huge year after Ray Lewis has retired. There is also a lot of competition in the pass rushing outside linebacker category that could make it difficult to stand out.

Ngata needs time and health and he will be in the Hall. He is dominant in his position and most recognize him as one of the best defensive player in the league even if his position does not allow him to translate that into stats all the time.

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

Originally Posted by somedumbguy

Suggs needs a couple more seasons like last season, and it probably would not hurt to have a huge year after Ray Lewis has retired. There is also a lot of competition in the pass rushing outside linebacker category that could make it difficult to stand out.

Ngata needs time and health and he will be in the Hall. He is dominant in his position and most recognize him as one of the best defensive player in the league even if his position does not allow him to translate that into stats all the time.

A lot more succinct than what I posted, but right on the money. You make a great point about Suggs needing to show what he can do sans Lewis. I do think that would bring final closure in some skeptic's minds about him.

Re: Will Sizzle and Haloti end their careers as HOFers?

Originally Posted by JAB1985

How many NTs and space eaters have made it into the HOF?

Position names sometimes change, but lineman that I can think of include:

Bob Lily, Art Donavan, Joe Green, John Randle, Merlin Olsen, Cortez Kennedy, Alan Page, and Dan Hampton. There is also Reggie White who I am not sure if he should be called a rush end or defensive lineman, but he was big, nasty, and dominant.

If Warren Sapp gets into the Hall, would he make this list or do people think of him as a sack guy?