As I was facebooking and watching TV last sunday a friend of mine that was indoctrinated in the same cult as I, and whos father is a deacon there ambushed me over FB message...

I think he displayed ALL the symptoms... literally all of them.

Sunday

4:27pmXtian:in 2013 you will believe againwatch

4:28pmMe:Nah, Ive done too much research. How do you reconcile your morality with the apparent evilness of YHWH in the bible?

4:29pmXtian:least you got the YHWHi wont debate tho1 because it wont convince you2im not the one that does the convincingand 3there is some evil at work here that prevents you from hearingbut i will say this

4:29pmMe:Its not debates, Its that I read it and I dont need to make excuses for it.

4:29pmXtian:trying to wrap your head around God is a loosing battle for any humanbut whether you agree with God's actions or lack thereof or notits impossible to deny his existencejust look aroundnature reeks of iteven in school you learn every design has a designer

4:30pmMe:No it doesnt.Youre ignoring science

4:31pmXtian:ive known far great athesists than you who have prolly down more researchthan you come aroundi think you have - ive got a degree in sciencescience is not opposed to God

4:31pmMe:Science is opposed to things proclaimed in the bible though

4:31pmXtian:in fact science is what it is today because of Christians in the field (centuries ago) Christianity allowed for science to flourish

4:32pmMe:if you get your god from the bible it is false

4:32pmXtian:science was never meant to be en end all be all thats why its called science - means tentativenaturalistic evolution takes much faith to believe...i know atheists who dont believe in it..its so flawed..nature, science, all points to a creatoryou just dont like Him

4:33pmMe:science explains the world around you. The bible tells you to sprinkle bird blood to kill mold.science gave you lysol

4:33pmXtian:you forget im not one of these "my pastor said Christians" i do researchits my thingthe research is convincing but thats not what convinced meyou will know what I am talking aboutnext yearwait for it

4:34pmMe:Im open for anything you got. As long as it doesnt require me to turn off my brain

4:34pmXtian:until then keep believe the big bang theory until you get stuck at wondering where the ball came from...or things can create themselves...lol its funny when you say it like that out loud

4:34pmMe:But understand faith means there is no evidence

4:34pmXtian:nah man never do thati actually like that you question and research everythingbut there is a difference between not understanding, corruption in the church, and backing anything that disagrees with Christianityfaith doesnt mean thatblind faith is the silliest thing i ever heardmy faith is informed and based on truth and fact

4:36pmMe:I actually hit you when I was doing some of my research cuz I felt you were one I could talk to bout stuff and not worry about all that extra judgemental stuff

4:36pmXtian:logicdid i not respond back?

4:36pmMe:You were goin through stuff and I prolly got busy

4:37pmXtian:the Bible is also progressive revelation - thing you are getting hung up in some OT stuff...but I admit, I dont understand it all, I wont act like I dobut I am still convinced its not the research that has you denying Christianityits another issuetruthfully it is with all atheistsesp those who parents were faith based

4:38pmMe:the reason you dont understand is probably because its not fitting into what we are supposed to believe about it and Christianity.

4:38pmXtian:the same gaps you find in the bible I can find in science - science is always changing always being informed - we have yet to even understand the human body let alone the eye..then you want to talk how the world came about..pleasenothing in there is more convincing than the Bible...its all about control beliefs

4:39pmMe:What I did was stop makin excuses for those passages and accepted what they said. From there I asked why someone would write such evilness and the answer is clear

4:39pmXtian:im not the typical Christian at alli actually dont even believe Christ died for everyoneI dont really believe in free will as most ppl doim differenti also believe in the limitations of my own mind

4:40pmMe:the bible doesnt support free will. Or it suggests that god will take it away at his whim

4:40pmXtian:if i could understand God thats means I am GodGOd created man in his own image and man, being the gentlemen he is, returned the favor

4:41pmMe:If you cant understand then it eliminates you from having an opinion

4:42pmXtian:Christianity, mainstream, is as corrupt as it gets, I know this. Doesn't mean Jesus didnt come in the flesh, die, then rise again. Was seen by 500 witnesses...and why would 12 dudes (disciples) die for something they knew was a lie - no one does thatcant understand fully

4:42pmMe:People die for ALL religions everyday

4:42pmXtian:not everything can be explained - science teaches us that

4:42pmMe:doesnt make them true

4:42pmXtian:not for ones they think is a lie

4:42pmMe:Exactly

4:42pmXtian:so the disciples just thought they saw someone rise from the dead?

4:43pmMe:No. Research what the gospels really say.One hardly mentions jesus at all.

4:43pmXtian:there is more literary proof for the bible than for any other piece of lieterature everyand its by a bunchtextual criticism is a science - most ppl who do it arent chrstian

4:43pmMe:one of them thought the resurrected Jesus was John the Baptist

4:43pmXtian:and you will come away seeing that some verses were added later by scribesbut man...doing that research and seeing how many different manuscript agree from different time periods tracing back to the 2nd century is crazylike it fabricated, it was fabricated in the 1st century

4:45pmMe:look up Bart Erhmn

4:45pmXtian:2 of the gospel were not even written by disciples - they just heard it from themi know all this

4:45pmMe:biblical scholar. For the problems with how the book was compiled

4:46pmXtian:doesnt disprove a thing

4:46pmMe:it proves its a flimsy bookthe bible isnt even meant to be together

4:46pmXtian:nostill has more literary proof than any other book

4:46pmMe:its a collection of books a bunch of guys VOTED on

4:46pmXtian:so if thats flimsy every other book ever is flimsierah the canonyes it is

4:47pmMe:No, other books have primary sources and we know who the writers are

4:47pmXtian:someone I still fail to see how science winsfaith is involved either way

4:47pmMe:No, your computer youre typing on is due to scienceit works.

4:47pmXtian:i know barti also know he is a good debater but look up his debatesd with daniel wallacedan will disprove him on every ptand dan is not even a debater, he is a premier textual critic and greek scholar

4:48pmMe:Not a fan of his debating, but I honor his biblical studies

4:48pmXtian:bart issue isnt with evidence either - its emotional like yourshes smart but misguided and mis represents some things

4:48pmMe:Mine is due to facts.Who wrote Genesis?matter of fact the 1st 5 books?

4:49pmXtian:they say Mosesnot knowing an answer to a question does not presume its falsehoodthats a logical fallacy to assume it doeswe will never even know who wrote hebrews

4:50pmMe:No. You tried to state that the bible is on par with books that we have sources and know the authors of

4:51pmXtian:every book you name has less "proof" then the biblethe next closer is the illiad~closest

4:51pmMe:another book of mythology

4:51pmXtian:if you believe homer wrote that, then the bible is beyoind true

4:51pmMe:I dont take the Oddeyssy or Illiad as truththus it doesnt matter who wrote it

4:52pmXtian:there is also another issue that you must know tooliterary interpreationhermenueticscertain things are made to intrerpret certain waysits not fair to read something from the 2nd century as it was written todayculture matterscontext matters, etc....surrounding content matterstype of literature mattersthats an science within itselditself

4:53pmMe:Think about this though B. If this collection of books was meant to be some sort of instructions for you and I and the world forever then an alll knowing god woulve seen the problemsWhy would he make it in languages that are rare or no longer exist?

4:54pmXtian:i know think its instructions

4:54pmMe:Why wouldnt he protect the original manuscripts?

4:54pmXtian:i think he is revealing himself

4:54pmMe:Why would he give them to a largely illiterate population?

4:54pmXtian:they existed at the time they were writtenthast why he gave us minds

4:54pmMe:and they sdvocated slavery, murder, rape, theivery, etc

4:55pmXtian:why do people lose hair on top of their heads and grow it everywhere else

4:55pmMe:advocated

4:55pmXtian:science doesnt even knowwho is they?progressive revelationslavery back then was not the slavery our ppl enduredour slavery was worseeven still, the revelation is progressive

4:55pmMe:Then why did god help them out of Egypt?

4:55pmXtian:change doesnt happen all at onceoh it was bad

4:56pmMe:it doesnt fit

4:56pmXtian:im not saying it wasntGod put them in Egypt to begin withGod punishes Israel, then He restores them

4:56pmMe:the evidence from the sites shows that it wasnt that bad. Although I qustion it.

4:56pmXtian:dude every single thing in the OT points to the NT and points an arrow to Christ

4:57pmMe:only if you want to ignore all the evidence against it

4:57pmXtian:its beautiful once you get the picturestill, i dont know everything - i havent done research in a whilebut why did God allow Newtown to happeneven connecticut

4:57pmMe:Youre not talking to someone that hasnt been there to learn the same stuff.

4:57pmXtian:what do you think God should have done?remove evil

4:57pmMe:Nothing. He doesnt exist.

4:57pmXtian:how far do you gomass murder, stealing lies, then out minds

4:58pmMe:But the book is full of stories with him intervening

4:58pmXtian:if you rid evil you rid humanity cuz we are evilsin is our fault, not Gods

4:58pmMe:Then we were made that way.Who made us?

4:58pmXtian:God is sovereignHe intervenes with a purpose and a reasonsometimes He doesnt for a reason

4:59pmMe:You just got done telling me you dont understand him, now you do?

4:59pmXtian:He still doesnt get the blame

4:59pmMe:See youre making excuses for the book

4:59pmXtian:He saves us, we all deserve hellwho am i to say its not fair that all dont go to heavenif it was fair, we'd all be in hell

4:59pmMe:No, you dont. I dont. My daughter and nieces dont.

4:59pmXtian:so the fact he says some of usis better than none of usnah i dont fully understand

5:00pmMe:Save us from what?

5:00pmXtian:i never will until that dayim limitedi have a human mindhow can i comprehend God?how can creation question the creator?

5:00pmMe:You are acting as if you do

5:00pmXtian:I know and believe some thingsnot allwe reading the same booki just believe iti cant pick what I dont like and say god wouldnt do thatim not god

5:01pmMe:belief is not knowledge

5:01pmXtian:God doesnt dislike things cuz I donti know i said know and believei know what the bible says and choose to beleive it

5:01pmMe:god was what was used when people didnt have answers

5:01pmXtian:u know what it says and choose not tololwe still dont have the answers

5:02pmMe:it was a very bad answer for lifes questions, but the best middle eastern sheep herders could do

5:02pmXtian:so i guess we better keep using Himwhen u get the answers, let me knowbut a Godless universe is not science

5:02pmMe:I have them

5:02pmXtian:evolution doesnt even meet the criteria of scienceso if you exposuing science, let me know wht you believe

5:02pmMe:Everything works w/o god. God adds nothing.

5:03pmXtian:cuz even the best scientist will tell you macro evolution is not scienceit cant be, its not falsifiable, or prove-ableit will always be a theoryalways

5:08pmXtian:bro seriouslythere are some great scientist who disagree with evolutionwho are not Christianu dont believe IN GodI dont believe in breadstickswe all dont believe in somethingnor do i believe in turkey bacon or boneless wingsthey dont exist

5:11pmXtian:look around youlook outsidego to the mountains i have been

5:11pmMe:thats evidence that stuff exists. nothing more

5:11pmXtian:cats who dont even bleive in God after seeing them told me they know there is a Godsymmetry

5:11pmXtian:The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

5:11pmXtian:just happened by chance?really?

5:13pmMe:Thats a backwards argumentthats like saying theres microwaves because we have TV dinnersThe earth doesnt even remain the same distance from the sun. You got bad science there

5:15pmXtian:lol

5:15pmMe:The entire surface isnt heated and cooled like you say. Think about Antarcticaand other uninhabitable parts of the earth

5:16pmXtian:the earth revolves around the sun the same way

5:16pmMe:then theres the solar system

5:16pmXtian:that oval shapeif it was any different it wouldnt workfor lifescience tells us thati mean that is paraphrasedthe pt is, did that happen by itself

5:17pmMe:Oval means it doesnt stay the same distance from the sun, meaning what you said about being further or closer is nonsense

5:17pmXtian:one planet has life?really?nooclosest than the closest part of the oval and farthest from the fartherits actually circular tho

5:17pmMe:no its not. You got bad science.its eliptical

5:18pmXtian:arguing the fine details doesnt disprove the fact that things like that dont happen by themselveslolokits circular when i made it for science class in the 5th grade

5:19pmMe:Theres already scientific models of how it works. They use those models for space travel. Again that works. While the bible talks about the earth being on a foundation and stars falling to the earth. And making the sun after day and nightmythology.

5:19pmXtian:lolno it was written by ppl who believed thatremember when it was written

5:19pmMe:Not just christianity though. Every religion dreamed up.

5:19pmXtian:the sun rises and fallsu dont use the word sunrise?

5:20pmXtian:“…I am quite conscious that my speculations run beyond the bounds of true science….It is a mere rag of an hypothesis with as many flaw(s) & holes as sound parts.” Charles Darwin to Asa Gray, cited by Adrian Desmond and James Moore, Darwin, (New York: W.W. Norton and Company, 1991) pp. 456, 475.

5:20pmXtian:The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory." - Charles Darwin 1902 edition.

5:21pmMe:You realize its 2013 almost?

5:21pmXtian:

"One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view, was ... it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That's quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. ...so for the last few weeks I've tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, 'I do know one thing -- it ought not to be taught in high school'."Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, New York City

5:22pmMe:Science does challenge itself. Thats why it works. Religion has no answers. Zero. You using lysol or bird blood to kill mold?

5:22pmXtian:The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils.Stephen Jay Gould, Former Professor of Geology and Paleontology at Harvard University

5:23pmXtian:"The Carbon-14 contents of the shells of the snails of Melanoides tuberculatus living today in artesian springs in southern Nevada indicate an apparent age of 27,000 years."Alan C. Riggs, Science, vol 224 (1984) 58-61lololol

"Evolution is unproved and improvable, we believe it because the only alternative is special creation, which is unthinkable."(Sir Arthur Keith, a militant anti-Christian physical anthropologisthat last statement is fact

5:24pmMe:Quote mining?LOL come on man.

5:25pmXtian:wait i got some for your by evolutionistswell u obvious have not done your researchso i wanted to connect u with cats who haveu said every religion is made up right?

5:26pmXtian:Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, as secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint—and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it—the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today”3 (Ruse).

5:28pmXtian:enjoy this too"One is forced to conclude that many scientists and technologists pay lip-service to Darwinian theory only because it supposedly excludes a Creator." (Dr. Michael Walker, Senior Lecturer in Anthropology, Sydney University, quoted in Quadrant, October, 1982.)belief in evolution has never been and will never be about the factsthats was never intended

5:28pmMe:See I cant even take your quotes serious becase they act like Christianity is the only religion in existance

5:28pmXtian:it was intended to be an alternative to God

5:28pmMe:theyre emotional

5:28pmXtian:thats factdo research on itlol

5:29pmMe:Ive done it alreadyBut regardless. None of that helps the atrocity that is biblical scriptureand thus whatever beliefs spawn from itEven NT

5:30pmXtian:i got some scientific articles for yougotta find themthey produce some holesbig oneswell you are rightdoesnt prove that the NT is truebut it does show that its best alternative has serious flawshence the word theory

5:31pmMe:evrything is a theoryYou have bad science man.Gravity is a theory

5:32pmXtian:how do you prove something to be true that isnt testable?when you answer that, we can conclude evolution is trueor even proveablebut u cantno one canare theories theoriesif so thats weirdgravity founded by a believer

5:42pmMe:you mean when the church was killing non believers?my bad FB was acting upWhen the church told Galileo to recant the idea of a heliocentric solar system or die?The idea of being a non believer wasnt even safe until recentlyeveryone acted like they believed... even Mother Theresa

5:50pmXtian:recently?centuries ago

5:53pmMe:Galileo yes in the 1600sYes, christians did fund a lot of science that was the cornerstone for todays science. But thats why the church fears science nowand would rather say things like god planted dino bones to test your faith or the light from the stars is here to trick us

Wow, how do you keep your sanity. I would have told him to , as John Boner says," go fuck yourself" half way thru that. Interesting how he makes religion fit for himself...like the part where he says, "Christ did not die for everyone" and "I does not believe in free will". Which people did he die for?

Also this line was interesting...God created man in his own image and man, being the gentlemen he is, returned the favor. WTF does that mean?

There's not a single person on earth I would have been able to have THAT discussion with, without completely losing patience and getting fed up and unkind about it. He seems to think he knows a lot about atheists (as we're all one big homogenous group who march in lockstep over every issue - I'm sure you've noticed that since you joined our club) and how we became atheists.

And yep, he displayed every known symptom. The only known vaccination is to administer what you gave him and hope that he responds appropriately. Best of luck with that - I realize that this person is your friend and you probably do care about the outcome. Keep saying it, he may surprise you.

Logged

“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

Oh, the god thing. You probably meant this year, right. You said last year. But it didn't happen. So you must have meant this year. Or next. Or the one after that. Well, whatever it take to help you maintain your low level of maturity is fine with me. Good luck with that.

Logged

Anyone can beat around the bush. But unless you have permission from the bush, you probably shouldn't.

Wow, how do you keep your sanity. I would have told him to , as John Boner says," go fuck yourself" half way thru that. Interesting how he makes religion fit for himself...like the part where he says, "Christ did not die for everyone" and "I does not believe in free will". Which people did he die for?

Also this line was interesting...God created man in his own image and man, being the gentlemen he is, returned the favor. WTF does that mean?

He basically admitted god was man made. He was saying that gods description by men makes him like men. I think we all can agree... next time i focus in on that statement.

I wasnt quite ready and my cpu was acting up so i couldnt go to my resources. Since he claims to be a OEC im going with the creation story, god lied in the garden and the serpent told the truth, no original sin, jesus irrelevant. Angle.

Oh, the god thing. You probably meant this year, right. You said last year. But it didn't happen. So you must have meant this year. Or next. Or the one after that. Well, whatever it take to help you maintain your low level of maturity is fine with me. Good luck with that.

what PP said lol

Logged

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Wow, I just watched myself go through a mental gyration over this. Here's more or less what I thought:

"Cool Gawd is going to keep after him. Good! I'm gonna ask him to keep us up to date. Wow, I shouldn't do that, it's not ok to be cheering him on, hoping he "wins". Yes it is, a win means the dude de-converts, and that's a GOOD thing. Oh fer fuck sakes just admit it - I'm nosy."

So, whatever my motivations (which are apparently unclear even to me) please continue to share the story. You did a great job so far, and the crack is there, just begging to be pried open a little further.

Logged

“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

I read about 2/3 of it but I had to stop. It was aggravating that the subject jumped around so much. I wish you hadn't just accepted so much of the stuff he said and pressed him harder on other things. He changed topic so much because I don't think he had an answer... but then again I guess you wouldn't have much of a chance convincing him anyway.

I read about 2/3 of it but I had to stop. It was aggravating that the subject jumped around so much. I wish you hadn't just accepted so much of the stuff he said and pressed him harder on other things. He changed topic so much because I don't think he had an answer... but then again I guess you wouldn't have much of a chance convincing him anyway.

thats a tactic they use... its almost universal. Whenever cornered they change the subject, just like on the boards. And of course not answering anything is another tactic. But next time I see him online Im going to nail him down on some things since he made specific claims. I'll do MY best to keep it on topic for ease of reading...