The NFL has a copy of a "ledger" that was kept detailing weekly earnings for players in the New Orleans Saints bounty system, according to two sources with knowledge of the investigation.

The ledger, which shows both money earned for "cart-offs" and "whacks" and deducted for "mental errors," also points to the fact that players were told on a week-by-week basis of their performance.

Ex-Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is at the center of the bounty scandal investigation. (AP)According to sources, the NFL showed portions of the ledger during meetings with some of those who have been investigated in the scandal.

"The players clearly knew what was going each week with the payments," a source told Yahoo! Sports. In fact, multiple sources admitted that Saints defensive players would regularly encourage teammates to put money earned from the bounty system back into the pool. It's unclear if that was to increase the potential winnings or eventually use the money for some other purpose.

Regardless of whether the money was paid out or not, the mere implication of a cash payment for such plays is considered a violation of league rules.

NFL Players Association spokesman George Atallah said via text message that the league "made mention" of the ledger in a meeting with the union in April, but that the NFLPA had not seen the ledger yet.

As a result, Atallah called into question the use of the ledger as "evidence."

"I guess it either qualifies as evidence, which means fair due process was violated because [the] players didn't get to see it before they were punished or it is not hard evidence because they didn't get to see it and cross examine the validity of that piece of evidence," Atallah wrote.

[Related: Saints' Jonathan Vilma said he didn't get to see evidence]

This news comes in the aftermath of a declaration Friday by filmmaker Sean Pamphilon that he was encouraged by former New Orleans linebacker Scott Fujita to release an audio recording of former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, first obtained by Yahoo! Sports, in which Williams exhorts players to hurt members of the San Francisco 49ers in a playoff game last season.

Implicit within Pamphilon's 10,000-word description of the circumstances is that players such as Fujita and New Orleans quarterback Drew Brees and the NFL Players Association were attempting to push more of the blame for the bounty scandal onto Williams and the coaching staff.

Fujita, who did not immediately return a text seeking comment, is one of four players who has been suspended for his participation in the bounty scandal.

The ledger could prove to be extremely damning to the players' cause. Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma has filed a defamation lawsuit against NFL commissioner Roger Goodell in federal court in Louisiana, claiming he never paid nor received money for bounties.

Vilma's claim may ultimately be a matter of semantics.

While the ledger doesn't necessarily prove that there was an actual transaction, it is potentially strong evidence that such a system existed. In the ledger, payments of $1,000 for cart-offs (a hit that resulted in a player being helped off the field), $400 for whacks (hard hits) and $100 deductions for mental errors were kept track of for each player.

Two specific entries for the 2009 season were shown during one meeting. In a game at Buffalo on Sept. 27, 2009, there were three $1,000 awards. In a game against the New York Giants on Oct. 18, there was a $1,000 bounty awarded for one cart-off.

There was also a notation that after one game an opposing player who had been carted off was placed on injured reserve. The notation of the player on IR included an exclamation mark.

"The players knew what their actions were for," the source said.

In addition, Pamphilon's accusation against Fujita, who is a player representative to the NFLPA, potentially brings up a contradiction over the defense by the players, who have been arguing that the bounty system didn't exist. Aside from the existence of the ledger, the effort by the players to push the blame for the system onto Williams by having Pamphilon release the audio tape is a tacit admission that the bounty system existed.

Or as one source said: "You can't have it both ways. You can't argue it didn't happen and then argue somebody else forced you to do it."

What I think is interesting about this is... I guaranty you these guys didn't pay "taxes" on their "bounties" which was definitely considered "income." I wonder if the Fed. govt. will get involved and audit each and every one of them?

June 1st, 2012, 6:39 pm

regularjoe12

Off. Coordinator – Joe Lombardi

Joined: March 30th, 2006, 12:48 amPosts: 3987Location: Davison Mi

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

Good point wags. The part that confuses me is the part that talks about the players not seeing the ledger, so it shouldn't be included as evidence. I don't understand that. WJB can ya help me out here? The only reason I can think of to that being any kinda sticking point is if they are claiming it to be a fake. Other than that, they all have seen it before and knew what they were doing....why is there any other reaction other than "aw sh@t"?

_________________2013 Lionbacker Fantasy Football Champion

June 2nd, 2012, 9:22 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

The players were never put on trial, so I don't know what the whole "evidence" thing is about. They were suspended by the league. Simple. The players claim that there's no reason for the suspensions because the bounty system never existed. Apparently Goodell has more than enough evidence to support his claim that it did exist, those players took part, and as such acted outside the rules of the LEAGUE. As such, the LEAGUE suspended them.

Seems simple enough.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 4th, 2012, 10:50 am

thelomasbrowns

Pro Bowl Player

Joined: August 24th, 2010, 9:54 pmPosts: 2482

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

m2karateman wrote:

The players were never put on trial, so I don't know what the whole "evidence" thing is about. They were suspended by the league. Simple. The players claim that there's no reason for the suspensions because the bounty system never existed. Apparently Goodell has more than enough evidence to support his claim that it did exist, those players took part, and as such acted outside the rules of the LEAGUE. As such, the LEAGUE suspended them.

Seems simple enough.

I think the problem people have with Goodell is that the NFL under his leadership appears to have little respect for due process and/or union rights. With such a high profile organization, I think more transparency is expected.

It seems like Goodell makes emotional calls about what happens with different people, not applying the same standards to everyone. That might not be the case, but the NFL is so opaque people assume the worst.

_________________Jim Caldwell, on whether Jim Harbaugh is stealing his thunder: "Me? I don't have any thunder."

June 5th, 2012, 8:20 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

thelomasbrowns wrote:

I think the problem people have with Goodell is that the NFL under his leadership appears to have little respect for due process and/or union rights. With such a high profile organization, I think more transparency is expected.

It seems like Goodell makes emotional calls about what happens with different people, not applying the same standards to everyone. That might not be the case, but the NFL is so opaque people assume the worst.

Believe me, I have zero love for Goodell. I think the league should appoint a review committee for those times that his rulings are called into question, and he should not be on that committee. But in this case the NFLPA is acting like the league punished the players in a criminal case, not under their own jurisdiction. As such, "due process" is a matter of what the league set forth as how they would handle these things, and the NFLPA agreed to it in the last CBA. If Goodell acted outside those agreements, then they have a leg to stand on. If not, and it's simply a matter of them not liking the outcome, tough cookies.

What I do know is that several people within the Saints organization have already admitted to the bounty system, and have already acknowledged that it existed. Most of the players have denied it ever existed. Some even had the audacity to say the coaches didn't encourage them to hurt other players....until the audio came out. Then they quickly shut up and crawled into a hole never to be heard from again.

I imagine that releasing the information in any journal or book acknowledging the bounty system and payments made based on cart offs or knock outs can be damaging to more than just the players involved. No different than the former players now who are trying to sue the NFL for concussions suffered in the past, some of the players who got hurt based on those bounties could bring criminal charges to players who hit them, saying that they acted outside the boundaries of the sport, or could sue the NFL for not acting quickly enough. Who knows?

If I were Goodell, and I had good reasons for not showing that journal, I would tell the NFLPA and players the following:

"Fine. You want to see the evidence, I'll show it to you. But, here's the deal. All those whose names are listed in the journal as having taken part in this bounty system will automatically get suspended for the entire year, and their names will be given to the IRS for auditing. Should they be found guilty of tax evasion, they will be suspended for yet another season. Then, all those names will be a matter of public record, and your endorsement deals will dry out like a dead cow carcass in the middle of the Sahara Desert."

What will it be?

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 5th, 2012, 9:16 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

m2karateman wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

I think the problem people have with Goodell is that the NFL under his leadership appears to have little respect for due process and/or union rights. With such a high profile organization, I think more transparency is expected.

It seems like Goodell makes emotional calls about what happens with different people, not applying the same standards to everyone. That might not be the case, but the NFL is so opaque people assume the worst.

Believe me, I have zero love for Goodell. I think the league should appoint a review committee for those times that his rulings are called into question, and he should not be on that committee. But in this case the NFLPA is acting like the league punished the players in a criminal case, not under their own jurisdiction. As such, "due process" is a matter of what the league set forth as how they would handle these things, and the NFLPA agreed to it in the last CBA. If Goodell acted outside those agreements, then they have a leg to stand on. If not, and it's simply a matter of them not liking the outcome, tough cookies.

What I do know is that several people within the Saints organization have already admitted to the bounty system, and have already acknowledged that it existed. Most of the players have denied it ever existed. Some even had the audacity to say the coaches didn't encourage them to hurt other players....until the audio came out. Then they quickly shut up and crawled into a hole never to be heard from again.

I imagine that releasing the information in any journal or book acknowledging the bounty system and payments made based on cart offs or knock outs can be damaging to more than just the players involved. No different than the former players now who are trying to sue the NFL for concussions suffered in the past, some of the players who got hurt based on those bounties could bring criminal charges to players who hit them, saying that they acted outside the boundaries of the sport, or could sue the NFL for not acting quickly enough. Who knows?

If I were Goodell, and I had good reasons for not showing that journal, I would tell the NFLPA and players the following:

"Fine. You want to see the evidence, I'll show it to you. But, here's the deal. All those whose names are listed in the journal as having taken part in this bounty system will automatically get suspended for the entire year, and their names will be given to the IRS for auditing. Should they be found guilty of tax evasion, they will be suspended for yet another season. Then, all those names will be a matter of public record, and your endorsement deals will dry out like a dead cow carcass in the middle of the Sahara Desert."

What will it be?

M2 - there is a certain level of punishment "within their own jurisdiction" that can call the attention of the courts. What I mean by this is, there are fines, penalties, etc. that are virtually the same as firing someone, even if only temporary. For instance, if GM said to one of its employees "we're not going to fire you, we're just going to suspend you for a year without pay," an employee could come back and sue them for unlawful firing. It is effectively a firing for one year.

I really don't know the legal test, but it just makes sense. Anyone that would be illegal for GM to fire, they could just "suspend within their own jurisdiction." Employers aren't allowed to get around union laws and employment law just because they call something a suspension.

Further, what RJ may have been alluding to in regards to the players seeing the ledger and it being admissible as evidence against them - he may have been talking about the pending litigation between some of the players and Goodell, the league, etc. That said, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference if the players have seen the ledger or not. The only meritorious argument is "who wrote it," and whether or not its hearsay, but I doubt it. Just because you've never seen a video tape of you raping or murdering someone, it doesn't mean its inadmissible.

June 5th, 2012, 11:57 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

wjb21ndtown wrote:

M2 - there is a certain level of punishment "within their own jurisdiction" that can call the attention of the courts. What I mean by this is, there are fines, penalties, etc. that are virtually the same as firing someone, even if only temporary. For instance, if GM said to one of its employees "we're not going to fire you, we're just going to suspend you for a year without pay," an employee could come back and sue them for unlawful firing. It is effectively a firing for one year.

I really don't know the legal test, but it just makes sense. Anyone that would be illegal for GM to fire, they could just "suspend within their own jurisdiction." Employers aren't allowed to get around union laws and employment law just because they call something a suspension.

Further, what RJ may have been alluding to in regards to the players seeing the ledger and it being admissible as evidence against them - he may have been talking about the pending litigation between some of the players and Goodell, the league, etc. That said, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference if the players have seen the ledger or not. The only meritorious argument is "who wrote it," and whether or not its hearsay, but I doubt it. Just because you've never seen a video tape of you raping or murdering someone, it doesn't mean its inadmissible.

I guess it comes down to what was agreed upon in the CBA, that's kind of how I'm looking at it. If the NFLPA is saying Goodell is acting outside the boundaries of the agreement, then by all means they should force him to produce that journal. And what you say about the impending civil suit I agree with. That book would certainly serve as some form of evidence, I have to imagine.

Typically in a labor agreement (or employee handbook, in GMs case) they have it spelled out what can get someone fired, suspended, etc., no?

What gets me is that nobody is complaining about the punishments for the coaches and GM anymore, it's about the player suspensions. That's only because of the NFLPA involvement.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 5th, 2012, 3:29 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: NFL has a copy of N.O. Saints "ledger" Bounty Pay-outs

m2karateman wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

M2 - there is a certain level of punishment "within their own jurisdiction" that can call the attention of the courts. What I mean by this is, there are fines, penalties, etc. that are virtually the same as firing someone, even if only temporary. For instance, if GM said to one of its employees "we're not going to fire you, we're just going to suspend you for a year without pay," an employee could come back and sue them for unlawful firing. It is effectively a firing for one year.

I really don't know the legal test, but it just makes sense. Anyone that would be illegal for GM to fire, they could just "suspend within their own jurisdiction." Employers aren't allowed to get around union laws and employment law just because they call something a suspension.

Further, what RJ may have been alluding to in regards to the players seeing the ledger and it being admissible as evidence against them - he may have been talking about the pending litigation between some of the players and Goodell, the league, etc. That said, it doesn't make a hill of beans difference if the players have seen the ledger or not. The only meritorious argument is "who wrote it," and whether or not its hearsay, but I doubt it. Just because you've never seen a video tape of you raping or murdering someone, it doesn't mean its inadmissible.

I guess it comes down to what was agreed upon in the CBA, that's kind of how I'm looking at it. If the NFLPA is saying Goodell is acting outside the boundaries of the agreement, then by all means they should force him to produce that journal. And what you say about the impending civil suit I agree with. That book would certainly serve as some form of evidence, I have to imagine.

Typically in a labor agreement (or employee handbook, in GMs case) they have it spelled out what can get someone fired, suspended, etc., no?

What gets me is that nobody is complaining about the punishments for the coaches and GM anymore, it's about the player suspensions. That's only because of the NFLPA involvement.

It's true that generally speaking, an employee handbook will spell out what can (and will) get someone fired, and what will get you suspended, but a company can't use an "indefinite suspension" to effectively fire someone (but calling it a different name), ergo subverting U.S. Labor Law.