I wasn't sure whether to put in the philosophy or games forum, because I wanted a moral/philosophical discussion as well as a strategic one. I put it here because the games forum is intended for playing games, and not for philosophical discussions.

An interesting situation I've noticed in many mafia games is for people who are playing as mafia/cult to "bus" their teammates. This occurs when said teammate plays badly or makes a blunder that makes him very suspicious. Let's assume a hypothetical scenario in which that teammate does not want to be thrown under the bus and would prefer to continue playing. Is it then justified for the other people that win with the mafia to Vote to Lynch their teammate?

I say that it is not. When playing as part of a team, it is important to protect your teammates and help them when they make mistakes. Pointing out mistakes is the job of the town, not the mafia. It is also likely that the bussed teammate would have hard feelings about being bussed if it was not a two-way agreement. This especially occurs in situations where the last hammer needs to happen from the mafia teammate.

Another overall disadvantage is that it reduces the number of mafia which makes it more difficult to win the game in the end. If the suspicion can be put on a townie, or if the mafia members can convince the town to go for a no lynch, shouldn't they try to do that instead?

Note that I am only talking specifically in cases where the mafia teammate was unwillingly thrown under the bus because of their mistake/blunder and excluding situations where the teammate was willingly bussed. It doesn't include situations where the teammate was in on the bussing.

At 11/8/2011 5:01:35 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:I wasn't sure whether to put in the philosophy or games forum, because I wanted a moral/philosophical discussion as well as a strategic one. I put it here because the games forum is intended for playing games, and not for philosophical discussions.

An interesting situation I've noticed in many mafia games is for people who are playing as mafia/cult to "bus" their teammates. This occurs when said teammate plays badly or makes a blunder that makes him very suspicious. Let's assume a hypothetical scenario in which that teammate does not want to be thrown under the bus and would prefer to continue playing. Is it then justified for the other people that win with the mafia to Vote to Lynch their teammate?

I say that it is not. When playing as part of a team, it is important to protect your teammates and help them when they make mistakes. Pointing out mistakes is the job of the town, not the mafia. It is also likely that the bussed teammate would have hard feelings about being bussed if it was not a two-way agreement. This especially occurs in situations where the last hammer needs to happen from the mafia teammate.

Another overall disadvantage is that it reduces the number of mafia which makes it more difficult to win the game in the end. If the suspicion can be put on a townie, or if the mafia members can convince the town to go for a no lynch, shouldn't they try to do that instead?

Note that I am only talking specifically in cases where the mafia teammate was unwillingly thrown under the bus because of their mistake/blunder and excluding situations where the teammate was willingly bussed. It doesn't include situations where the teammate was in on the bussing.

If there is a need for bussing, such as your teammate is obviously busted, and you can't defend them without outing yourself, then bussing is fine. Sometimes not hammering when you can is an automatic give away that you're mafia. In some cases it must be done for the good of the team. Yes it reduces the number of mafia, but it's better to lose 1 than to lose 2 simply because someone was trying to protect someone who was busted. Also, if your teammate suggests a strategy where he/she is bussed then that is fine as well. But just to start bussing teammates because you think you're better and can make the town believe you're a townie by bussing, no, that is not acceptable and is very assholeish. There is no call for that, it is extremely unsportsmanlike and rude. No one wants to play with that kind of player in the game.

Haha, that definitely makes me an arsehole then. I can't help but play selfishly.

For example...

I'll never forget the mafia fakelore game. I ruined bluesteels plan by not hammering a townie (I argued that the reasoning was stupid and it was; when Denote flipped town, we both would have looked hella suspicious...) We got into an argument in the PM and he called me an idiot, so I claimed day cop and led a lynch on him. Little did I know askbob hadn't even put a cop into the game, so I wasn't even counter-claimed. I was just rereading the end game pm. Fun memories.

I don't care about playing like an arsehole. The best way to win is to be completely ruthless. If it means sacrificing a team mate, so be it. It's not my SOP though; obviously the more mafia that are alive the faster they can win. It just that bussing a team mate can confirm you as town and/or remove even massive amount of suspicion. I'm happy to be bussed as well, as long as it is productive.

"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

I don't know how to play mafia but if its a game than it doesn't fall under the ordinary rules of morality. Insofar as the rules of the game are not violated, and the game itself isn't violating rights or intrinsically immoral then no actions taken within the game are immoral. Games are amoral in the sense that the above conditions are met: The object is purely to win.

At 11/8/2011 7:15:29 PM, tvellalott wrote:Haha, that definitely makes me an arsehole then. I can't help but play selfishly.

For example...

I'll never forget the mafia fakelore game. I ruined bluesteels plan by not hammering a townie (I argued that the reasoning was stupid and it was; when Denote flipped town, we both would have looked hella suspicious...) We got into an argument in the PM and he called me an idiot, so I claimed day cop and led a lynch on him. Little did I know askbob hadn't even put a cop into the game, so I wasn't even counter-claimed. I was just rereading the end game pm. Fun memories.

I don't care about playing like an arsehole. The best way to win is to be completely ruthless. If it means sacrificing a team mate, so be it. It's not my SOP though; obviously the more mafia that are alive the faster they can win. It just that bussing a team mate can confirm you as town and/or remove even massive amount of suspicion. I'm happy to be bussed as well, as long as it is productive.

At 11/8/2011 7:15:29 PM, tvellalott wrote:Haha, that definitely makes me an arsehole then. I can't help but play selfishly.

For example...

I'll never forget the mafia fakelore game. I ruined bluesteels plan by not hammering a townie (I argued that the reasoning was stupid and it was; when Denote flipped town, we both would have looked hella suspicious...) We got into an argument in the PM and he called me an idiot, so I claimed day cop and led a lynch on him. Little did I know askbob hadn't even put a cop into the game, so I wasn't even counter-claimed. I was just rereading the end game pm. Fun memories.

I don't care about playing like an arsehole. The best way to win is to be completely ruthless. If it means sacrificing a team mate, so be it. It's not my SOP though; obviously the more mafia that are alive the faster they can win. It just that bussing a team mate can confirm you as town and/or remove even massive amount of suspicion. I'm happy to be bussed as well, as long as it is productive.

At 11/8/2011 7:15:29 PM, tvellalott wrote:Haha, that definitely makes me an arsehole then. I can't help but play selfishly.

For example...

I'll never forget the mafia fakelore game. I ruined bluesteels plan by not hammering a townie (I argued that the reasoning was stupid and it was; when Denote flipped town, we both would have looked hella suspicious...) We got into an argument in the PM and he called me an idiot, so I claimed day cop and led a lynch on him. Little did I know askbob hadn't even put a cop into the game, so I wasn't even counter-claimed. I was just rereading the end game pm. Fun memories.

I don't care about playing like an arsehole. The best way to win is to be completely ruthless. If it means sacrificing a team mate, so be it. It's not my SOP though; obviously the more mafia that are alive the faster they can win. It just that bussing a team mate can confirm you as town and/or remove even massive amount of suspicion. I'm happy to be bussed as well, as long as it is productive.

In the Drugged out game, I was going to bus LDF as cult recruiter to sell me and BH as townies so we could be on the winning team (I didn't think cult had a chance at that point), because if she died, we went back to being vanilla townies. I couldn't do it though, it was a cheap, sleazy way to win, using my teammate as a stepping stone, after she'd spent the whole game working on setting up a situation where the cult had a shot at winning. I thought she recruited me so she could bus me, because we were both suspicious at that point. But she didn't. We both stuck it out and fought and look what happened, the only cult win I've seen since I've been playing. That was a very gratifying win because I didn't do the wrong thing. If I had done the wrong thing, and bussed her, even if we had won with the town I wouldn't have enjoyed it because it was a sleazy move.

Sure bussing helps sell yourself as town, but why not try doing it some other way??Anybody can look innocent by throwing a teammate under the bus. It's just not fair to the less experienced players when they're just there to be roadkill for more experienced players. Even real mafioso have a code of honor. It's just a game, and everyone should be able to enjoy playing. That's just my personal opinion.

At 11/8/2011 9:23:39 PM, medic0506 wrote:Sure bussing helps sell yourself as town, but why not try doing it some other way??Anybody can look innocent by throwing a teammate under the bus. It's just not fair to the less experienced players when they're just there to be roadkill for more experienced players. Even real mafioso have a code of honor. It's just a game, and everyone should be able to enjoy playing. That's just my personal opinion.

As I said, it's definitely not my SOP but if I feel like it's the right move, I'll do it.

"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

At 11/8/2011 7:19:45 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:I don't know how to play mafia but if its a game than it doesn't fall under the ordinary rules of morality. Insofar as the rules of the game are not violated, and the game itself isn't violating rights or intrinsically immoral then no actions taken within the game are immoral. Games are amoral in the sense that the above conditions are met: The object is purely to win.

How you play games, and how you treat teammates and opponents is very much a moral thing. The rules are just guidelines. I'd rather fight hard yet treat everyone with respect and end up losing, than to be a huge a-hole and win. What good is that win?? Your morals guide you in every thing you do, including how you play games.

At 11/8/2011 7:15:29 PM, tvellalott wrote:Haha, that definitely makes me an arsehole then. I can't help but play selfishly.

For example...

I'll never forget the mafia fakelore game. I ruined bluesteels plan by not hammering a townie (I argued that the reasoning was stupid and it was; when Denote flipped town, we both would have looked hella suspicious...) We got into an argument in the PM and he called me an idiot, so I claimed day cop and led a lynch on him. Little did I know askbob hadn't even put a cop into the game, so I wasn't even counter-claimed. I was just rereading the end game pm. Fun memories.

I don't care about playing like an arsehole. The best way to win is to be completely ruthless. If it means sacrificing a team mate, so be it. It's not my SOP though; obviously the more mafia that are alive the faster they can win. It just that bussing a team mate can confirm you as town and/or remove even massive amount of suspicion. I'm happy to be bussed as well, as long as it is productive.

In the Drugged out game, I was going to bus LDF as cult recruiter to sell me and BH as townies so we could be on the winning team (I didn't think cult had a chance at that point), because if she died, we went back to being vanilla townies. I couldn't do it though, it was a cheap, sleazy way to win, using my teammate as a stepping stone, after she'd spent the whole game working on setting up a situation where the cult had a shot at winning. I thought she recruited me so she could bus me, because we were both suspicious at that point. But she didn't. We both stuck it out and fought and look what happened, the only cult win I've seen since I've been playing. That was a very gratifying win because I didn't do the wrong thing. If I had done the wrong thing, and bussed her, even if we had won with the town I wouldn't have enjoyed it because it was a sleazy move.

Sure bussing helps sell yourself as town, but why not try doing it some other way??Anybody can look innocent by throwing a teammate under the bus. It's just not fair to the less experienced players when they're just there to be roadkill for more experienced players. Even real mafioso have a code of honor. It's just a game, and everyone should be able to enjoy playing. That's just my personal opinion.

This brings back such good memories :)

Yeah, it was truly an awesome game. Even after I joined, some of the cult were sure that we had lost and were not optimistic at all. I am so glad we pulled through and won it. Medic and LDF made all the right decisions, choosing when to protect the cult, who to target next, etc. Good times.

How you play games, and how you treat teammates and opponents is very much a moral thing. The rules are just guidelines. I'd rather fight hard yet treat everyone with respect and end up losing, than to be a huge a-hole and win. What good is that win?? Your morals guide you in every thing you do, including how you play games.

Well said, Medic. Sometimes I get a bit too caught up in the game before realizing that it was just too much. I think the way you play a game and the decisions you make would reflect what you would do in real life.

If the objective of the game is to win, it makes sense to do what you gotta do to win. Kinda like in The Walking Dead, if anyone watches. Shane did something he had to do. I won't elaborate, but it was gruesome.

Anyway, even if the other player is objecting to being bussed, if it's your BEST move, you should do it. Not saying it's your best move to bus a team member who has no suspicion. That's idiotic. It's your best move to bus a team member who isn't helping you guys out as much, and also revealing things prematurely, maybe not playing as a team member. They would do it in a real mafia. We should do it in this mafia.

Like the way spritle was playing in 2.3. He was basically outing himself as mafia. If I were his buddies, I would have gotten all over him in the thread, leading a lynch on him basically. Also, if it comes down to it, say you have two mafia left and like 6 town. It's better at that point to be "confirmed", so you can go ahead and bus/ be bused.

I haven't read all the posts here, but I'll give my two cents. I think it is perfectly acceptable to bus your teammates if that is what is in the best interest of the game (to help your team win). However, I don't agree with doing it just so YOU can stay alive... unless, of course, your role is more important and/or you're a more valuable player than who you're bussing. Again, it depends on what will more likely help your team win. Mafia is a team game, so if you sign up to play, then to not be a douche you should always do what's in the best interest of helping your team win - even if it means sacrificing yourself or putting your own 'life' in danger (which I have actually done many times). Unless you're a third party player with a singular win condition, you should be trying to do what's best for the team, because only a TEAM can win (and you win if your team wins, even if you're dead).