Comments

Athena
4:36pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Our traditional student and starter-jobs have ALL been taken over by Eastern Europeans. Cafes, restaurants and shops are invariably staffed by foreigners, leaving our own young in the cold. Some of those foreigners have now been here so long, they are now managers, in Costa Coffee, Specsavers and other places, denying even that job mobility to our own. I've nothing against foreigners - my father was from Poland - but this lack of jobs for our own young is damaging the country badly.

Our traditional student and starter-jobs have ALL been taken over by Eastern Europeans. Cafes, restaurants and shops are invariably staffed by foreigners, leaving our own young in the cold. Some of those foreigners have now been here so long, they are now managers, in Costa Coffee, Specsavers and other places, denying even that job mobility to our own. I've nothing against foreigners - my father was from Poland - but this lack of jobs for our own young is damaging the country badly.Athena

Our traditional student and starter-jobs have ALL been taken over by Eastern Europeans. Cafes, restaurants and shops are invariably staffed by foreigners, leaving our own young in the cold. Some of those foreigners have now been here so long, they are now managers, in Costa Coffee, Specsavers and other places, denying even that job mobility to our own. I've nothing against foreigners - my father was from Poland - but this lack of jobs for our own young is damaging the country badly.

Score: 0

george smith
4:50pm Thu 3 Jan 13

What is a cultural apprenticeship? Maybe a less trendy Brighton type plumber might have been more fruitful.

What is a cultural apprenticeship? Maybe a less trendy Brighton type plumber might have been more fruitful.george smith

What is a cultural apprenticeship? Maybe a less trendy Brighton type plumber might have been more fruitful.

Score: 0

fredaj
5:30pm Thu 3 Jan 13

One of the reasons Eastern Europeans have all the low paid work is because UK youngsters will not take the jobs. Apparently, if the Poles will take the work it is beneath the dignity of a British born 20 year old, and anyway, they can get by with benefits.

Trouble is, you cannot get better work if you are not prepared to take any work, and as the lad in the article has found, you risk de-motivation and even depression.

Parents? Education? Peer pressure? Dunno, but there must be a solution to this one.

One of the reasons Eastern Europeans have all the low paid work is because UK youngsters will not take the jobs. Apparently, if the Poles will take the work it is beneath the dignity of a British born 20 year old, and anyway, they can get by with benefits.
Trouble is, you cannot get better work if you are not prepared to take any work, and as the lad in the article has found, you risk de-motivation and even depression.
Parents? Education? Peer pressure? Dunno, but there must be a solution to this one.fredaj

One of the reasons Eastern Europeans have all the low paid work is because UK youngsters will not take the jobs. Apparently, if the Poles will take the work it is beneath the dignity of a British born 20 year old, and anyway, they can get by with benefits.

Trouble is, you cannot get better work if you are not prepared to take any work, and as the lad in the article has found, you risk de-motivation and even depression.

Parents? Education? Peer pressure? Dunno, but there must be a solution to this one.

Score: 0

Ballroom Blitz
5:41pm Thu 3 Jan 13

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.Ballroom Blitz

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.

Score: 0

Athena
5:44pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.Athena

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

Score: 0

nocando
7:12pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Hmm, cultural apprenticeship eh? Sounds like he got sold a predictably useless waste of time by some lefty on the public payroll who's main concern was box ticking and trying to look productive while trying to promote dumb and irrelevant courses dreamt up by other lefties on the public payroll also trying to justify their pensions.
Sold out by the so called do gooders who couldn't bear the thought of another soldier or brickie because it clashes with their agenda.
Shame on the people who are paid handsomely to guide youngsters into useful employment but can't come up with anything better than a cultural apprenticeship. How long is this course, what's in the content? Why are people meant to take it seriously? Its a disgrace.

Hmm, cultural apprenticeship eh? Sounds like he got sold a predictably useless waste of time by some lefty on the public payroll who's main concern was box ticking and trying to look productive while trying to promote dumb and irrelevant courses dreamt up by other lefties on the public payroll also trying to justify their pensions.
Sold out by the so called do gooders who couldn't bear the thought of another soldier or brickie because it clashes with their agenda.
Shame on the people who are paid handsomely to guide youngsters into useful employment but can't come up with anything better than a cultural apprenticeship. How long is this course, what's in the content? Why are people meant to take it seriously? Its a disgrace.nocando

Hmm, cultural apprenticeship eh? Sounds like he got sold a predictably useless waste of time by some lefty on the public payroll who's main concern was box ticking and trying to look productive while trying to promote dumb and irrelevant courses dreamt up by other lefties on the public payroll also trying to justify their pensions.
Sold out by the so called do gooders who couldn't bear the thought of another soldier or brickie because it clashes with their agenda.
Shame on the people who are paid handsomely to guide youngsters into useful employment but can't come up with anything better than a cultural apprenticeship. How long is this course, what's in the content? Why are people meant to take it seriously? Its a disgrace.

Can we not deport these lazy, unemployables to Eastern Europe to scratch out a living in the soil? It bloody depresses me being forced to pay for the buggers.

Can we not deport these lazy, unemployables to Eastern Europe to scratch out a living in the soil? It bloody depresses me being forced to pay for the buggers.Straight, white, working and wealthy...oppressed minority.

Can we not deport these lazy, unemployables to Eastern Europe to scratch out a living in the soil? It bloody depresses me being forced to pay for the buggers.

Score: 0

just-a-person
8:09pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Ballroom Blitz wrote…

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.

This is not the case for all youngsters. Alot of them want to work and a lot of them do. My child was looking for part time work when he was at college and he did try but the replies were either you do not have enough experience, you are not old enough to operate machinery and some never even bothered replying.
Fortunately for him he gained the qualifications needed for the job he wanted to do and has been employed ever since. He works six days a week on the minimum wage of £4.98 for his age group and does not complain so do not tar them all with the same brush.

[quote][p][bold]Ballroom Blitz[/bold] wrote:
I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.[/p][/quote]This is not the case for all youngsters. Alot of them want to work and a lot of them do. My child was looking for part time work when he was at college and he did try but the replies were either you do not have enough experience, you are not old enough to operate machinery and some never even bothered replying.
Fortunately for him he gained the qualifications needed for the job he wanted to do and has been employed ever since. He works six days a week on the minimum wage of £4.98 for his age group and does not complain so do not tar them all with the same brush.just-a-person

Ballroom Blitz wrote…

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.

This is not the case for all youngsters. Alot of them want to work and a lot of them do. My child was looking for part time work when he was at college and he did try but the replies were either you do not have enough experience, you are not old enough to operate machinery and some never even bothered replying.
Fortunately for him he gained the qualifications needed for the job he wanted to do and has been employed ever since. He works six days a week on the minimum wage of £4.98 for his age group and does not complain so do not tar them all with the same brush.

Score: 0

bob_from_brighton
8:23pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Of course it's not quite comparing like for like. Young person comes to UK for 5 years to earn wages unheard of at home....and returns with good purchasing power in their home country.... perhaps to buy/deposit on a house - of course they would be motivated. UK locals on the other hand offered the same pay rate BUT with little purchasing power in the UK feel a little unmotivated.

Of course it's not quite comparing like for like. Young person comes to UK for 5 years to earn wages unheard of at home....and returns with good purchasing power in their home country.... perhaps to buy/deposit on a house - of course they would be motivated. UK locals on the other hand offered the same pay rate BUT with little purchasing power in the UK feel a little unmotivated.bob_from_brighton

Of course it's not quite comparing like for like. Young person comes to UK for 5 years to earn wages unheard of at home....and returns with good purchasing power in their home country.... perhaps to buy/deposit on a house - of course they would be motivated. UK locals on the other hand offered the same pay rate BUT with little purchasing power in the UK feel a little unmotivated.

Score: 0

Cave Johnson
9:32pm Thu 3 Jan 13

This will be self-diagnosed depression i assume. Being fed up is not the same as depression. If you aren't diagnosed by a medical professional just stop bleating and get on with your life.

This will be self-diagnosed depression i assume. Being fed up is not the same as depression. If you aren't diagnosed by a medical professional just stop bleating and get on with your life.Cave Johnson

This will be self-diagnosed depression i assume. Being fed up is not the same as depression. If you aren't diagnosed by a medical professional just stop bleating and get on with your life.

Score: 0

Hoarder12345444
9:57pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Athena wrote…

Our traditional student and starter-jobs have ALL been taken over by Eastern Europeans. Cafes, restaurants and shops are invariably staffed by foreigners, leaving our own young in the cold. Some of those foreigners have now been here so long, they are now managers, in Costa Coffee, Specsavers and other places, denying even that job mobility to our own. I've nothing against foreigners - my father was from Poland - but this lack of jobs for our own young is damaging the country badly.

Agreed, far too many. But having said that they do graft and don't moan, something a lot of young brits lack, real guts and willing to graft and sweat. There are jobs out there, cleaners and all those types of jobs are always out there.

[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
Our traditional student and starter-jobs have ALL been taken over by Eastern Europeans. Cafes, restaurants and shops are invariably staffed by foreigners, leaving our own young in the cold. Some of those foreigners have now been here so long, they are now managers, in Costa Coffee, Specsavers and other places, denying even that job mobility to our own. I've nothing against foreigners - my father was from Poland - but this lack of jobs for our own young is damaging the country badly.[/p][/quote]Agreed, far too many. But having said that they do graft and don't moan, something a lot of young brits lack, real guts and willing to graft and sweat. There are jobs out there, cleaners and all those types of jobs are always out there.Hoarder12345444

Athena wrote…

Our traditional student and starter-jobs have ALL been taken over by Eastern Europeans. Cafes, restaurants and shops are invariably staffed by foreigners, leaving our own young in the cold. Some of those foreigners have now been here so long, they are now managers, in Costa Coffee, Specsavers and other places, denying even that job mobility to our own. I've nothing against foreigners - my father was from Poland - but this lack of jobs for our own young is damaging the country badly.

Agreed, far too many. But having said that they do graft and don't moan, something a lot of young brits lack, real guts and willing to graft and sweat. There are jobs out there, cleaners and all those types of jobs are always out there.

Score: 0

funkyyoyo
10:10pm Thu 3 Jan 13

were all depressed

were all depressedfunkyyoyo

were all depressed

Score: 0

Maxwell's Ghost
10:12pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Athena, sadly many of the the British youth have embraced popular culture so much that they cannot compete with the clean, tidy, articulate and pleasant migrant workers from Eastern Europe and other areas of the world.
British teenagers, particularly in trendy B&H, have covered themselves in tattoos, facial piercings, pink/blue Katy Perry hair, hole stretching earings etc so if you were running a service industry trade such as hotels/catering, you would employ the person you would want serving your food etc and the reality of that is, a pretty young lady or clean young man who are more likely to come from Eastern Europe.
While you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, the fact is employers do. British youth also seem to suffer from X Box tiredness, where they come into work after staying up all night playing games, or the great British hangover.
You rarely get that from migrant workers who just don't drink in the way British people do.
I work with young graduates and apprentices and I have to say British young people are often very immature for their age compared to their overseas counterparts who work alongside them and I have to act as a father to them and get them up to speed with some very basic social behaviours expected in the workplace.
Come on mums and dads, give your kids some chores and get them into voluntary work a lot sooner than 18 so they become more confident and articulate and help them compete in the tough jobs market.
Young people have a lot to offer, but its the adults who are letting them down.

Athena, sadly many of the the British youth have embraced popular culture so much that they cannot compete with the clean, tidy, articulate and pleasant migrant workers from Eastern Europe and other areas of the world.
British teenagers, particularly in trendy B&H, have covered themselves in tattoos, facial piercings, pink/blue Katy Perry hair, hole stretching earings etc so if you were running a service industry trade such as hotels/catering, you would employ the person you would want serving your food etc and the reality of that is, a pretty young lady or clean young man who are more likely to come from Eastern Europe.
While you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, the fact is employers do. British youth also seem to suffer from X Box tiredness, where they come into work after staying up all night playing games, or the great British hangover.
You rarely get that from migrant workers who just don't drink in the way British people do.
I work with young graduates and apprentices and I have to say British young people are often very immature for their age compared to their overseas counterparts who work alongside them and I have to act as a father to them and get them up to speed with some very basic social behaviours expected in the workplace.
Come on mums and dads, give your kids some chores and get them into voluntary work a lot sooner than 18 so they become more confident and articulate and help them compete in the tough jobs market.
Young people have a lot to offer, but its the adults who are letting them down.Maxwell's Ghost

Athena, sadly many of the the British youth have embraced popular culture so much that they cannot compete with the clean, tidy, articulate and pleasant migrant workers from Eastern Europe and other areas of the world.
British teenagers, particularly in trendy B&H, have covered themselves in tattoos, facial piercings, pink/blue Katy Perry hair, hole stretching earings etc so if you were running a service industry trade such as hotels/catering, you would employ the person you would want serving your food etc and the reality of that is, a pretty young lady or clean young man who are more likely to come from Eastern Europe.
While you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, the fact is employers do. British youth also seem to suffer from X Box tiredness, where they come into work after staying up all night playing games, or the great British hangover.
You rarely get that from migrant workers who just don't drink in the way British people do.
I work with young graduates and apprentices and I have to say British young people are often very immature for their age compared to their overseas counterparts who work alongside them and I have to act as a father to them and get them up to speed with some very basic social behaviours expected in the workplace.
Come on mums and dads, give your kids some chores and get them into voluntary work a lot sooner than 18 so they become more confident and articulate and help them compete in the tough jobs market.
Young people have a lot to offer, but its the adults who are letting them down.

Score: 0

GardeningMama
10:23pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.GardeningMama

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Score: 0

just-a-person
2:16am Fri 4 Jan 13

GardeningMama wrote…

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?

[quote][p][bold]GardeningMama[/bold] wrote:
Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.[/p][/quote]Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?just-a-person

GardeningMama wrote…

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?

Score: 0

Atticus
8:54am Fri 4 Jan 13

just-a-person wrote…

GardeningMama wrote…

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?

Another vote in agreement. Those who criticize the members of a younger generation forget who raised them.

[quote][p][bold]just-a-person[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]GardeningMama[/bold] wrote:
Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.[/p][/quote]Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?[/p][/quote]Another vote in agreement. Those who criticize the members of a younger generation forget who raised them.Atticus

just-a-person wrote…

GardeningMama wrote…

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?

Another vote in agreement. Those who criticize the members of a younger generation forget who raised them.

Score: 0

Morpheus
9:48am Fri 4 Jan 13

So much for the Olympics which showed us that Britain was better than any other country and gave us a new confidence in ourselves. That idea didn't last long.

So much for the Olympics which showed us that Britain was better than any other country and gave us a new confidence in ourselves. That idea didn't last long.Morpheus

So much for the Olympics which showed us that Britain was better than any other country and gave us a new confidence in ourselves. That idea didn't last long.

Score: 0

Crystal Ball
10:30am Fri 4 Jan 13

They should stop their moaning and man-up to reality.

They should stop their moaning and man-up to reality.Crystal Ball

They should stop their moaning and man-up to reality.

Score: 0

sunnysea
10:40am Fri 4 Jan 13

Morpheus wrote…

So much for the Olympics which showed us that Britain was better than any other country and gave us a new confidence in ourselves. That idea didn't last long.

They are not depressed, they are bored. I'd love to see these teens claiming to be 'depressed' to look into the eyes of an aids infected-ex child soldier and tell him that they're depressed lol

Yes, a chemical imbalance in the brain can be the cause depression, but at the end of the day, it is a state of mind. It just depends on what you think about. Teens have a tendency to think everything shiit and eventually they'll believe they're shiit.

[quote][p][bold]Morpheus[/bold] wrote:
So much for the Olympics which showed us that Britain was better than any other country and gave us a new confidence in ourselves. That idea didn't last long.[/p][/quote]They are not depressed, they are bored. I'd love to see these teens claiming to be 'depressed' to look into the eyes of an aids infected-ex child soldier and tell him that they're depressed lol
Yes, a chemical imbalance in the brain can be the cause depression, but at the end of the day, it is a state of mind. It just depends on what you think about. Teens have a tendency to think everything shiit and eventually they'll believe they're shiit.sunnysea

Morpheus wrote…

So much for the Olympics which showed us that Britain was better than any other country and gave us a new confidence in ourselves. That idea didn't last long.

They are not depressed, they are bored. I'd love to see these teens claiming to be 'depressed' to look into the eyes of an aids infected-ex child soldier and tell him that they're depressed lol

Yes, a chemical imbalance in the brain can be the cause depression, but at the end of the day, it is a state of mind. It just depends on what you think about. Teens have a tendency to think everything shiit and eventually they'll believe they're shiit.

Score: 0

Sussex jim
10:58am Fri 4 Jan 13

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.[/p][/quote]The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?Sussex jim

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

Score: 0

Ballroom Blitz
10:58am Fri 4 Jan 13

just-a-person wrote…

Ballroom Blitz wrote…

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.

This is not the case for all youngsters. Alot of them want to work and a lot of them do. My child was looking for part time work when he was at college and he did try but the replies were either you do not have enough experience, you are not old enough to operate machinery and some never even bothered replying.
Fortunately for him he gained the qualifications needed for the job he wanted to do and has been employed ever since. He works six days a week on the minimum wage of £4.98 for his age group and does not complain so do not tar them all with the same brush.

Of course it's not all youngsters. But it's a trend that we have all seen first hand.

[quote][p][bold]just-a-person[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Ballroom Blitz[/bold] wrote:
I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.[/p][/quote]This is not the case for all youngsters. Alot of them want to work and a lot of them do. My child was looking for part time work when he was at college and he did try but the replies were either you do not have enough experience, you are not old enough to operate machinery and some never even bothered replying.
Fortunately for him he gained the qualifications needed for the job he wanted to do and has been employed ever since. He works six days a week on the minimum wage of £4.98 for his age group and does not complain so do not tar them all with the same brush.[/p][/quote]Of course it's not all youngsters. But it's a trend that we have all seen first hand.Ballroom Blitz

just-a-person wrote…

Ballroom Blitz wrote…

I'm in my 60s and work long hours in a shop for not much above the minimum wage.
These feckless, lazy youngsters need to get real, and realize that if they won't take a low paid job there's always someone from Eastern Europe who will do it, and do it without a surly attitude, which is why they are preferred by many employers.
Stop complaining and feeling sorry for yourselves, and get on with it.
No sympathy here.

This is not the case for all youngsters. Alot of them want to work and a lot of them do. My child was looking for part time work when he was at college and he did try but the replies were either you do not have enough experience, you are not old enough to operate machinery and some never even bothered replying.
Fortunately for him he gained the qualifications needed for the job he wanted to do and has been employed ever since. He works six days a week on the minimum wage of £4.98 for his age group and does not complain so do not tar them all with the same brush.

Of course it's not all youngsters. But it's a trend that we have all seen first hand.

Score: 0

Athena
12:26pm Fri 4 Jan 13

Sussex jim wrote…

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes
s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec
t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.

[quote][p][bold]Sussex jim[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.[/p][/quote]The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?[/p][/quote]I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes
s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec
t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.Athena

Sussex jim wrote…

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes
s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec
t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.

Score: 0

Ballroom Blitz
7:22pm Fri 4 Jan 13

Athena wrote…

Sussex jim wrote…

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes

s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec

t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.

This is quite simply the best post have seen on this forum for years. You are right on every count.
However, the one point you miss is that education has been reduced to an industry. And industry that has to make money. Once that happens you are f***ed.
These days it's all about money.

[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Sussex jim[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.[/p][/quote]The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?[/p][/quote]I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes
s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec
t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.[/p][/quote]This is quite simply the best post have seen on this forum for years. You are right on every count.
However, the one point you miss is that education has been reduced to an industry. And industry that has to make money. Once that happens you are f***ed.
These days it's all about money.Ballroom Blitz

Athena wrote…

Sussex jim wrote…

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes

s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec

t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.

This is quite simply the best post have seen on this forum for years. You are right on every count.
However, the one point you miss is that education has been reduced to an industry. And industry that has to make money. Once that happens you are f***ed.
These days it's all about money.

Score: 0

fredaj
10:02pm Fri 4 Jan 13

Atticus wrote…

just-a-person wrote…

GardeningMama wrote…

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?

Another vote in agreement. Those who criticize the members of a younger generation forget who raised them.

You are all part of the problem.

[quote][p][bold]Atticus[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]just-a-person[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]GardeningMama[/bold] wrote:
Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.[/p][/quote]Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?[/p][/quote]Another vote in agreement. Those who criticize the members of a younger generation forget who raised them.[/p][/quote]You are all part of the problem.fredaj

Atticus wrote…

just-a-person wrote…

GardeningMama wrote…

Often, young people have had a bad experience with education at school, or can't concentrate in a large college environment, where they disappear into the crowd, and their learning needs are not met. Deriding young people will not solve the problem. It is only by engaging them and building their confidence that they can change for the better. I have worked with vulnerable young people for 4 years now on a similar program for NEETS and have seen first hand the progress and change that can happen, enabling them to go on to achieve in their chosen career. Instead of mocking programs like these when you know little about them, come and meet some of the young people. You might just have to change your stereotyped view of them. See the hard work that tutors put in to be the 'responsible adult' in the learners life. Mock all you like, but these courses do a valuable public service, unpicking the damage done by society and parents on some (not all) of these vulnerable young people, who are mostly great to be with by the way, despite the problems they face day to day.

Well said, couldn't agree more. I wonder how many of the above comments are parents or relatives of teenagers today ?

Another vote in agreement. Those who criticize the members of a younger generation forget who raised them.

You are all part of the problem.

Score: 0

trystero
1:14am Sun 6 Jan 13

Athena wrote…

Sussex jim wrote…

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes

s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec

t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.

"Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"

Possibly spelling "where" correctly? Pots and kettles, methinks....

[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Sussex jim[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.[/p][/quote]The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?[/p][/quote]I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes
s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec
t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.[/p][/quote]"Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"
Possibly spelling "where" correctly? Pots and kettles, methinks....trystero

Athena wrote…

Sussex jim wrote…

Athena wrote…

Fair points, fredaj. Perhaps the celeb culture has something to do with it, whereby youngsters just sit around, waiting for their "break", expecting to be catapulted into riches and fame? Even Jordan (KP) had to work at it 20 years ago or so. Or perhaps the education system just doesn't inspire youngsters to learn for their futures, assuming, again, their big break will just fall into their laps. Or perhaps the problems started 40 years ago, when education began to fail, and the grandparents of the present youngsters failed to learn the value of education, being taught only to "express themselves". They never learnt what to teach their kids, who don't know what to teach their kids in turn. Difficult.

The rot in education began in the late sixties, under the Wilson government. The problem of 40 years ago was joining the EU, which has ultimately led to Poles, etc. being allowed to work here.
If we could insist that our own people take priority in filling vacancies, and cut the benefits of those who are not inclined to work, we could take many youngsters off the streets.
And if these fit and healthy youngsters feel down, how do they think those in their early sixties feel who are unemployed yet cannot get their pension until 65?

I don't blame Wilson, The Beatles or The Stones. Like the 2012 Olympics, that all gave us cause to be proud of our nation and what it could produce. But it also made people want to come here and that was made a little easier in 1973, when we joined the Common Market. We weren't asked about the rest - we weren't asked if we wanted to be part of a Federal European State. We were conned into that position. However, Labour brought in the Comprehensive System in 1965 and Thatcher, as Education Secretary, was compelled to continue that process. It has been a disaster. Too many youngsters now go to uni to study useless subjects which will never get them a job with the high earnings they hope for. The Grammar and Secondary Modern system filtered out those more suitable for university and those more suitable for apprenticeships. But even the apprenticeships were tampered with by the introduction of useless NVQs, which are nothing more than a system of learning how to organise material in lever-arch files. By 1974, none of my twenty 14-year-old trainees knew what the capital of England was. A decade later, I saw a class of 15-year-olds spend the second of two double history lessons drawing a Tudor Rose. Another decade later, my son learnt less in 5 years of French than I learnt in 6 months at Grammar School. The unemployed youth of today are the children of those who were taught little at school in the 70s and 80s. Only they don't realise how little they were taught and think they are awfully smart and contemporary with their X-boxes and I-pads. With the internet they, and their children, learn too much about the wider world and remain oblivious to what is happening in their own surroundings but learn little of what is useful in school. A lack of history lessons has resulted in a generation who believe The Queen is a German council house tenant. A generation of political-correctnes

s has turned out a generation who go against the biological reality of needing one parent of each gender where men and women provide a complementary upbringing. No wonder young people are more confused than ever, and confusion leads to depression. Those who don't go to university are made to feel like lesser beings, somehow, as if they have failed. Those who do go to university often do courses which are beyond them, or which are such silly courses they will never lead to a realistic chance of getting a job and just lumber students with massive loans they will never pay off. Some are so uneducated, they have to spend their foundation year almost learning to read and write and do basic numbers. Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer? We have to turn back the clock and revert to a system whereby we realise that not everybody is cut out for higher education and that not everybody is at the same level of intelligence. Unfortunately, those excellent educational skills of 40 and 50 years ago are almost lost and would be seen as politically-incorrec

t today. And we should revert to a system whereby parents take responsibility for their children. Most do, but there are great numbers who do not and who haven't a clue as to what that responsibility should be, because they never learnt it by experience or by being taught it. The post-war period was one of thankfulness that people had survived the war and sadness that others hadn't. It gave impetus to people's lives and a determination to build a better society. Once that better society had been achieved, all the hardships and struggles of the previous centuries had been forgotten in a society which was all-out to enjoy itself and the Blitz spirit was quite forgotten. Now people expect too much and if they can't get it for themselves, the State will give it to them.

"Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"

Possibly spelling "where" correctly? Pots and kettles, methinks....

Score: 0

Athena
1:21am Sun 6 Jan 13

trystero says...
1:14am Sun 6 Jan 13

Athena wrote: "Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"

Thank you for pointing out my typo. You would make an excellent sub-editor at the Argus, only you would have to commute to Southampton.

trystero says...
1:14am Sun 6 Jan 13
Athena wrote: "Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"
trystero says... Possibly spelling "where" correctly? Pots and kettles, methinks....
Thank you for pointing out my typo. You would make an excellent sub-editor at the Argus, only you would have to commute to Southampton.Athena

trystero says...
1:14am Sun 6 Jan 13

Athena wrote: "Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"

Thank you for pointing out my typo. You would make an excellent sub-editor at the Argus, only you would have to commute to Southampton.

Only one spelling error in a 700-word piece, my friend? Keep looking. You may find more, or the odd out-of-place comma or semi-colon.

[quote][p][bold]Athena[/bold] wrote:
trystero says...
1:14am Sun 6 Jan 13
Athena wrote: "Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"
trystero says... Possibly spelling "where" correctly? Pots and kettles, methinks....
Thank you for pointing out my typo. You would make an excellent sub-editor at the Argus, only you would have to commute to Southampton.[/p][/quote]Only one spelling error in a 700-word piece, my friend? Keep looking. You may find more, or the odd out-of-place comma or semi-colon.Athena

Athena wrote…

trystero says...
1:14am Sun 6 Jan 13

Athena wrote: "Twenty years ago (it must be worse today) my next batch of trainees simply could not spell, in a job were spelling was vital. What is the answer?"

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