John the Baptist preached to them in Hades, and Christ freed them when he destroyed the bonds keeping them there.

As to why it took so long, well for one thing, the Roman Empire's worldwide (for the time) system of roads sure made it easier to spread the Gospel than it would have been otherwise. Having a lingua franca in the Greek language helped, too. And the Jewish people needed to grow and be perfected to a point where they produced a woman with the virtue of the Virgin Mary, who would ultimately say 'yes' to God. Religion and philosophy had to develop to a level where people could communicate the concepts of Christianity. Christ came at "the culmination of the ages."

That's what I always figured. It was at the perfect moment, it was an area that cultivated great philosophers who after Christ we have great theologians; the Empire was unified in the Mediterrean Basin so the Gospel could spread rapidly, etc etc.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

I never understood how it took almost 100,000 years until Christ is born, so what about all those people who died? Just all white noise then eh for preparation...

Perhaps to make it clear how badly we needed a savior. But who knows. All we know is St. Paul says that Christ was born of a woman "in the fullness of time". Apparently, it happened when it was supposed to.

Why do you consider 100,000 years a long time? Or a couple million years? Or a billion or two years? When we think in terms of man, yep, this is a long time, as our lives are only a handful of decades. But if you measure it in the face of eternity? It took Him the immediacy of a moment or less. We don't see ourselves, our world, time or reality as we ought. Our 'looker' is broken.

God had to work with what he had. The genealogies are there for a reason. God ain't acting alone, He is working with real humans beings. You can't get from Cain to the Theotokos in lived flesh and blood in one step.

You can jump all over this with the typical attacks if you wish, but the so called "ontological will of God" "versus" the "providential will of God" is too complicated a matter for everyone.

Some of the above answers might fit into some providential apology, but at the source, God ain't moving people around like chess pieces. The Theotokos was the fruit of a long and terrible struggle of particular people working out their relationship with God.

TtC, if you truly are open to conversion, you might find that your questions will be less directed at God (not that this is inappropriate, bad, or shouldn't be, and can often be healthy within a context of faith or true struggle) than at yourself.

To turn your question around, why has it taken me so long to accept the Savior of the world and having accepting Him and ostensibly having the fuller Truth than Adam and Eve, do I reject and disregard Him and His teachings?

Adam and Eve get a bad rap for their sin. Christians according to their faith have the fullness of Truth and sin over and over and over and over again.

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God only chose to reveal himself as Yahweh to only one region. Why I wonder, is it so that in different regions god seems to be completely different? curious.

He had to work with a specific people and within history. All due respect to Papist, but his answer is rather flippant and not in line with even what the RCC would teach. Read St. Paul, especially when he witnesses in Athens to them about their worship. Read what he says. Then read other writings of St. Paul (see the thread by PoorNick on The Law).

No doubt, it seems scandalous. And your questions are tough and realistic ones. If you decide, to read the Hebrew Scriptures with all the genocide, rape, incest, murder, adultery, etc., what I find so remarkable is the honesty of struggle that Israel maintained in their writings. Why keep all those scandalous stories about the Patriarchs and so on in your Holy Scriptures?

Read the Psalms, ain't all just Hallelujah.

And to answer your question more specifically and again in light of what I wrote above: God didn't zap anyone into the Truth. He had work with people who were willing (and most weren't and those who ended up working with God did so with much cajoling).

But to say the all the rest of creation was completely in the "dark" is not Biblical nor Christian.

Knowing the Truth ain't no walk in the park or desert as it were.

The recent Gospel reading on Sunday was the parable of the Last Judgement. Want to know the Truth? Be careful what you ask for, for to the degree we know the Truth and fail to LIVE it is to the degree of own condemnation.

FWIW.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 03:00:44 PM by orthonorm »

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The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can you honestly say why you are here?

That would be a thread you should start and try to work out for yourself. In all seriousness. Why are you here (this forum I mean)?

If you cannot bring yourself to do that, at least work on your reading comprehension.

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If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can one primate even know another primate's mind? What is the point of all this nonsense?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Oh please, no! Stop! There is a God! The only person you are hurting is yourself!........There: I tried.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can one primate even know another primate's mind? What is the point of all this nonsense?

Clearly other primates don't exist.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can you honestly say why you are here?

That would be a thread you should start and try to work out for yourself. In all seriousness. Why are you here (this forum I mean)?

If you cannot bring yourself to do that, at least work on your reading comprehension.

Just seeing if you had any good reasons for being pious.

I'm sorry I require actual reasons to hold a belief, but i can't just bypass reason.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can you honestly say why you are here?

That would be a thread you should start and try to work out for yourself. In all seriousness. Why are you here (this forum I mean)?

If you cannot bring yourself to do that, at least work on your reading comprehension.

Just seeing if you had any good reasons for being pious.

I'm sorry I require actual reasons to hold a belief, but i can't just bypass reason.

You should still work on your reading comprehension.

If you want to know the Truth, then you should try living it for a while. You've blown off praxis suggested here.

If you want to hold a "rational" debate on the "existence" of God. Then you need to stick with Papist.

Maybe you will convert to believing in the unmoved mover. If ain't willing to do, then there is no purpose in discussing anything with you about the Living God of Israel, Father of His Son who became incarnate and who LIVED among us.

I offered my EXPERIENCE here, because I thought you were genuinely struggling with your question. Instead, you become flippant and turn to old, tired, and worn-out "reasoning".

If you want to open another thread which has nothing to do with Christianity and about "truth", I will PWN your "rational" approach, if you are willing to pay me to do it.

Discussing and testifying to the Gospel is one thing. Giving remedial lessons in thought and philosophy is another.

I don't throw pearls before swine, but I am sure willing to take them from them.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 08:10:53 PM by orthonorm »

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I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have started a thread that isn't about the existence of God.

And as I noted in another thread, Orthodoxy only teaches that God exists in a certain sense. In another sense, God doesn't exist, because He is not a creature.

Could you explain this further please? How does he exist in a certain sense in orthodoxy?

(Why am I even answering?)

He "exists" in the sense that He's there, but he "doesn't exist" in the sense that He transcends the ideas and limitations inherent in the word "exist" - i.e. we're acknowledging that the word "exist" is limited and imperfect in the context of describing God's "existence."

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

The world had a Savior from the beginning. The Word of God brought about all things, has sustained all things, gave the commandments and was in the burning bush and the pillar of fire, was the power of the Ark of the Covenant. This same Savior, who was there from the beginning, became incarnate in the fullness of time. Therefore, the world did not need to prepare for the Savior of the world, as it already had Him, without whom they could not live or move or have their being. Rather, it was all part of the process of receiving Him, which the saints did of old, the culmination of which was His becoming what we are, that He might make us what He is.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can you honestly say why you are here?

That would be a thread you should start and try to work out for yourself. In all seriousness. Why are you here (this forum I mean)?

If you cannot bring yourself to do that, at least work on your reading comprehension.

Just seeing if you had any good reasons for being pious.

I'm sorry I require actual reasons to hold a belief, but i can't just bypass reason.

You should still work on your reading comprehension.

If you want to know the Truth, then you should try living it for a while. You've blown off praxis suggested here.

If you want to hold a "rational" debate on the "existence" of God. Then you need to stick with Papist.

Maybe you will convert to believing in the unmoved mover. If ain't willing to do, then there is no purpose in discussing anything with you about the Living God of Israel, Father of His Son who became incarnate and who LIVED among us.

I offered my EXPERIENCE here, because I thought you were genuinely struggling with your question. Instead, you become flippant and turn to old, tired, and worn-out "reasoning".

If you want to open another thread which has nothing to do with Christianity and about "truth", I will PWN your "rational" approach, if you are willing to pay me to do it.

Discussing and testifying to the Gospel is one thing. Giving remedial lessons in thought and philosophy is another.

I don't throw pearls before swine, but I am sure willing to take them from them.

you still haven't answered any of my questions. jesus won't be happy for letting my soul go to hell when you had the EXPERIENCE and "truth" to save me!

"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet." —Jesus (Matthew 10:14)

No, Jesus isn't happy about it, but he recognizes that some people's hearts are so hard that they will not listen. He told the apostles to move on in those cases. Maybe the seeds that were planted will sprout someday, but there comes a time when there is nothing more we can do.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Um, I believe the earth is 6 billion (youre off) and the universe is 14 billion years old, but I DO believe in God. God transcends time and space...

Some of the atheists claim the opposite, that God should have waited and shown up during the modern day when cameras could confirm that He was here. People are going to complain no matter what God decides to do.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Can you honestly say why you are here?

That would be a thread you should start and try to work out for yourself. In all seriousness. Why are you here (this forum I mean)?

If you cannot bring yourself to do that, at least work on your reading comprehension.

Just seeing if you had any good reasons for being pious.

I'm sorry I require actual reasons to hold a belief, but i can't just bypass reason.

You should still work on your reading comprehension.

If you want to know the Truth, then you should try living it for a while. You've blown off praxis suggested here.

If you want to hold a "rational" debate on the "existence" of God. Then you need to stick with Papist.

Maybe you will convert to believing in the unmoved mover. If ain't willing to do, then there is no purpose in discussing anything with you about the Living God of Israel, Father of His Son who became incarnate and who LIVED among us.

I offered my EXPERIENCE here, because I thought you were genuinely struggling with your question. Instead, you become flippant and turn to old, tired, and worn-out "reasoning".

If you want to open another thread which has nothing to do with Christianity and about "truth", I will PWN your "rational" approach, if you are willing to pay me to do it.

Discussing and testifying to the Gospel is one thing. Giving remedial lessons in thought and philosophy is another.

I don't throw pearls before swine, but I am sure willing to take them from them.

you still haven't answered any of my questions. jesus won't be happy for letting my soul go to hell when you had the EXPERIENCE and "truth" to save me!

I wish you were not so flippant. It is such a sad thing to see a grown person thumbing his nose at God.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Um, I believe the earth is 6 billion (youre off) and the universe is 14 billion years old, but I DO believe in God. God transcends time and space...

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is at least 14 billion years old. God's a procrastinator?

I'm not open to conversion unless someone gives me some real evidence that God even exists. and then if they can actually prove to me that which no primate can know, which is the mind of God; then i'll think about it.

Did you just foretell judgment day, and use that to threaten me into believing in your imaginary friend? hahaha

Um, I believe the earth is 6 billion (youre off) and the universe is 14 billion years old, but I DO believe in God. God transcends time and space...

Just because we experience time in a linear fashion does not mean that is the only way to experience it. God and maybe the departed could experience time all at once, like standing inside a circle. Everything that has ever happened and everything that will happen are all contained in a single moment.

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Some of the atheists claim the opposite, that God should have waited and shown up during the modern day when cameras could confirm that He was here. People are going to complain no matter what God decides to do.

Perhaps it doesn't matter in the long-run and the eventual outcome would have been the same (or perhaps somehow even less desirable in God's plan).

« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 05:09:58 PM by deusveritasest »

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I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com