Kareem was athletic in the same way you say Dwight is athletic? That's funny. How often did you see Kareem rock the rim and swat shots into the bleachers the way Howard does? Kareem was an artist, not a power guy, lol.. 2 different players. Your definition of athletic is totally different than mine. I'm not saying you are totally wrong, but the strength and muscle of Howard is completely different than the finesse and footwork of Kareem...

Absolutely not. My one and only argument is that I don't see the huge upgrade as perceived by many. Most thought Drew was the main problem last year and that Howard was so much better and dominant that he would put Drew to shame and was the missing piece. I don't believe it, yet most of you all do. That's my argument.

I said before I Like Howard. I just don't think he's such a huge upgrade, if any, over Bynum that you all say and seem to think. That is my main argument.

Offensively, probably will put up similar or a little better numbers than Bynum did.

But you fail to count the defensive changes Dwight adds to the role. His ability to switch on defense, defend pick and rolls,, alter shots, and athleticism, speed, and ability to run the floor and how much of an upgrade those things are.

You aren't going to try to argue that Dwight isn't the better defender, better switcher, better pick and roll defender, better shadower, better at altering shots, and better at running the floor than Bynum. Because he is.

So don't disallow it into your opinion otherwise you're missing a HUGE chunk of the difference between Dwight and Bynum and miss the point entirely.

Absolutely not. My one and only argument is that I don't see the huge upgrade as perceived by many. Most thought Drew was the main problem last year and that Howard was so much better and dominant that he would put Drew to shame and was the missing piece. I don't believe it, yet most of you all do. That's my argument.

Of course Dwight. My whole thing here is that we had a healthy Bynum last year, and trading for Dwight will not change the outcome this year. If we had a healthy Bynum this year and the trade was never made, nothing would have changed. The Lakers are not a better team this year with Howard than they were last year with a healthy Bynum. That is my take.

Of course Dwight. My whole thing here is that we had a healthy Bynum last year, and trading for Dwight will not change the outcome this year. If we had a healthy Bynum this year and the trade was never made, nothing would have changed. The Lakers are not a better team this year with Howard than they were last year with a healthy Bynum. That is my take.

I think it's too early to make that judgement.

Howard isn't totally there yet, and this team has had not had enough time or enough Nash to be able to gel and form an identity of what type of team they will be.

His defense was great tonight, I dont mind if he scores 4 pts as long as he gets rebounds and defends, because we need as much defense as we can get with this coach.

His defense was "great"? Come on dude... Biased much? If it was Kwame Brown there tonight instead of Howard and had those numbers you'd be asking for his head. Howard was good tonight, maybe, but definitely not great, lol...

His defense was "great"? Come on dude... Biased much? If it was Kwame Brown there tonight instead of Howard and had those numbers you'd be asking for his head. Howard was good tonight, maybe, but definitely not great, lol...

1) If we can't use a percentage based on Howard's health...well, Drew isn't 0% then, and so, he's putting up zeros across the board. I mean...I suppose he's arguably the worst center in the NBA, maybe in NBA history at this point.

It was clear as day, entering the season, that Howard would not be fully prepared to play for at least a month or two. He came off of a major back surgery that should have a lot of 260+ pound men on the shelf for a year.

2) Howard's points are going to be directly related to his shot attempts. Without Nash and the offense being installed correctly, you won't see Dwight taking as many shots as he did in Orlando (and, with Kobe, Gasol and Nash out there...you won't see that anyway, since Howard was really the only true threat on the Magic).

3) You're going to complain about his free throws, but according to last stand...you didn't see Howard play much at all. So, that tells me you didn't see Shaq play much at all, and therefore, you have no idea what the Lakers went through in the early 2000's. The struggle they went through at the free throw line, though...well, it was part of what resulted in three consecutive championships.

If you did see Howard play in the past (specifically in 2009) and you did see Shaq and our dynasty, then you wouldn't bother talking about the free throws.

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Why are people talking about Bynum when you're around? It's because you were highly critical of Dwight last year (for not having a post game, which is false), and then flashing Drew's "healthy stats" in our faces (which couldn't hold a candle to Dwight's best seasons). You also talked about how Drew wasn't 100% in the 2010 NBA Finals (but HOW DO YOU KNOW, RIGHT?) and that he was playing hurt through parts of the last two seasons.

You're basically jumping in here to mouth off about the best center in the NBA for having bad games, yet, he's producing 18 PPG and 11 RPG on 60% FG.

If the free throw shooting is such a big deal, know this: Bynum has never MADE 4+ FT/G in a season. Aside from his rookie year, Howard has never made UNDER 4+ FT/G in a season, and is making over five per game this year.

The most free throws Bynum has ever made in a season (234) would not even beat out Dwight's career low of 277 free throws made (rookie season).

Doesn't matter if Howard is 100%, 70% or 50% right now...he's still better than Drew at his absolute best.

1) If we can't use a percentage based on Howard's health...well, Drew isn't 0% then, and so, he's putting up zeros across the board. I mean...I suppose he's arguably the worst center in the NBA, maybe in NBA history at this point.

It was clear as day, entering the season, that Howard would not be fully prepared to play for at least a month or two. He came off of a major back surgery that should have a lot of 260+ pound men on the shelf for a year.

2) Howard's points are going to be directly related to his shot attempts. Without Nash and the offense being installed correctly, you won't see Dwight taking as many shots as he did in Orlando (and, with Kobe, Gasol and Nash out there...you won't see that anyway, since Howard was really the only true threat on the Magic).

3) You're going to complain about his free throws, but according to last stand...you didn't see Howard play much at all. So, that tells me you didn't see Shaq play much at all, and therefore, you have no idea what the Lakers went through in the early 2000's. The struggle they went through at the free throw line, though...well, it was part of what resulted in three consecutive championships.

If you did see Howard play in the past (specifically in 2009) and you did see Shaq and our dynasty, then you wouldn't bother talking about the free throws.

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Why are people talking about Bynum when you're around? It's because you were highly critical of Dwight last year (for not having a post game, which is false), and then flashing Drew's "healthy stats" in our faces (which couldn't hold a candle to Dwight's best seasons). You also talked about how Drew wasn't 100% in the 2010 NBA Finals (but HOW DO YOU KNOW, RIGHT?) and that he was playing hurt through parts of the last two seasons.

You're basically jumping in here to mouth off about the best center in the NBA for having bad games, yet, he's producing 18 PPG and 11 RPG on 60% FG.

If the free throw shooting is such a big deal, know this: Bynum has never MADE 4+ FT/G in a season. Aside from his rookie year, Howard has never made UNDER 4+ FT/G in a season, and is making over five per game this year.

The most free throws Bynum has ever made in a season (234) would not even beat out Dwight's career low of 277 free throws made (rookie season).

Doesn't matter if Howard is 100%, 70% or 50% right now...he's still better than Drew at his absolute best.

This is where you exit the topic.

Again, and this is the last time, I didn't post on here to talk about Bynum. I know it may seem the same in one to you because I have always favored Drew, it's not the case. This thread was opened to show the flaws Howard has portrayed. If you are happy with his performance thus far and is all you dreamed of when battling and fighting for him all off season, then good for you. I see a 7 and 7 record if we had him or not. To me he is not the savior you have been praising since the trade thread started some months ago. I am not surprised you are sticking to your guns, and no matter how bad he plays he is still "Superman" in your eyes. I have yet to see it and will not be swayed until he is consistent and proves it otherwise. To me he is just an ordinary center that has the Lakers in a .500 record. The record is what I thought it would be with him as our center, average at best..

P.S. The fact that you are comparing Howard to Shaq is enough for me. He will never be the dominant player Shaq was, therefore allowing for his poor free throw percentage is funny at best. Shaq was allowed his bad FT% because he was feared throughout the league and made up for it in more ways than Howard could dream of. The saying that a player couldn't hold another players jock strap fits perfectly when comparing Dwight to Shaq. Howard is not in Shaq's league, and never will be.....

A great defensive center like Howard can make the difference. But he can't solve everything by himself.

We knew when he was traded to LA that he would be a one-on-one upgrade defensively if you compare him to Bynum. But that is not something that is going to translate to wins or keeping leads or coming back from deficits if the rest of the team won't make their part too.

Right now the Lakers are average defensively stats-wise buτ is not Howards fault. Just see the Defensive win share of the team

If we had a collectively good perimeter defence Howard would make the difference already no matter which is his health %. But we are not a great perimeter defensive team. You can't expect players getting beat time after time and Howard blocking every drive in sight.

For a big man to make a difference the other 4 players on the court must be at least adequate on defense. That means ate least when they beaten to keep controling some angles and passing lanes.

We expect Howard to be a great "help defender" not a great "one on two or three defender".

So in some games his good defense will be efficient, in some other it will not. He can get better but is not like his teammates can't and shouldn't if the Lakers are going to have a good year.

The connection between Detroit and the Lakers franchise and the countability of its success on NBA terms

An average center holds opponents to 47.6% oppFG (at the most efficient position in the NBA, most shooting over 50%) with 15.6 oppPER? That's Howard's. Tyson Chandler was the DPOY last year, and his defensive numbers this year are worse than Howard's (Chandler is at 52.9% oppFG and 17.6 oppPER).

Garnett is at 54.7% oppFG% and 16.1 oppPER.

Duncan at 50% and 16.4.

LeBron (at PF, which is his primary position now) is at 48.9% and 19.9.

Howard's defensive numbers (opponent FG% and opponent PER) are better than all of those so far this season.

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So what is your issue with him, again? What makes Dwight Howard average? Who in the NBA, at the center position, is better than Dwight Howard right now? In any NBA frontcourt, who is a better defender?

An average center holds opponents to 47.6% oppFG (at the most efficient position in the NBA, most shooting over 50%) with 15.6 oppPER? That's Howard's. Tyson Chandler was the DPOY last year, and his defensive numbers this year are worse than Howard's (Chandler is at 52.9% oppFG and 17.6 oppPER).

Garnett is at 54.7% oppFG% and 16.1 oppPER.

Duncan at 50% and 16.4.

LeBron (at PF, which is his primary position now) is at 48.9% and 19.9.

Howard's defensive numbers (opponent FG% and opponent PER) are better than all of those so far this season.

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So what is your issue with him, again? What makes Dwight Howard average? Who in the NBA, at the center position, is better than Dwight Howard right now? In any NBA frontcourt, who is a better defender?

Your move. Give me something other than what you THINK.

An average center results in a average record. 7 and 7 is the only numbers I need to see. If he were as great as you say, maybe he needs to be a part of a team over .500 before he gets so much love. 7 and 7 is average, and Dwight is the starting center for a team that has this average record. He needs to be better than average before you put his name in the conversation with Shaq. You can love the dude all you want, but the record is what it is and until it changes, he will just be average to me... Next...