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Monday, November 28, 2005

The Earth goes through one complete precession cycle in a period of approximately 25,800 years, during which the positions of stars as measured in the equatorial coordinate system will slowly change; the change is actually due to the change of the coordinates. Over this cycle the Earth's north axial pole moves from where it is now, within 1° of Polaris, in a circle around the ecliptic pole, with an angular radius of 23 degrees 27 arcminutes [1], or about 23.5 degrees. The shift is 1 degree in 180 years (the angle is taken from the observer, not from the center of the circle).

The explanation of this is: The axis of the Earth undergoes precession due to a combination of the Earth's nonspherical shape (it is an oblate spheroid, bulging outward at the equator) and the gravitational tidal forces of the Moon and Sun applying torque as they attempt to pull the equatorial bulge into the plane of the ecliptic. The portion of the precession due to the combined action of the Sun and the Moon is called lunisolar precession.

A changing north star

Polaris is not particularly well-suited for marking the north celestial pole, as its visual magnitude, which is variable, hovers around 2.1, fairly far down the list of brightest stars in the sky. On the other hand, in 3000 BC the faint star Thuban in the constellationDraco was the pole star; at magnitude 3.67 it is five times fainter than Polaris; today it is all but invisible in light-polluted urban skies. The brightest star known to have been North Star or to be predictable as taking that role in the future is the brilliant Vega in the constellation Lyra, which will be the pole star around the year AD 14,000. When viewed looking down onto the Earth from the north, the direction of precession is clockwise. When standing on Earth looking outward, the axis appears to move counter-clockwise across the sky. This sense of precession, against the sense of Earth's own axial rotation, is opposite to the precession of a top on a table. The reason is that the torques imposed on the Earth by the Sun and Moon act in the sense of trying to align its axis normal to the ecliptic, i.e. to stand up more vertically in regards to the ecliptic plane, while the torque on a top spinning on a hard surface acts in the sense of trying to make the top fall over, rather than to stand up straighter.

Polaris is not exactly at the pole; any long-exposure unguided photo will show it having a short trail. It is close enough for most practical purposes, though. The south celestial pole precesses too, always remaining exactly opposite the north pole. The south pole is in a particularly bland portion of the sky, and the nominal south pole star is Sigma Octantis, which, while fairly close to the pole, is even weaker than Thuban -- magnitude 5.5, which is barely visible even under a properly dark sky. The precession of the Earth is not entirely regular due to the fact that the Sun and Moon are not in the same plane and move relative to each other, causing the torque they apply to Earth to vary. This varying torque produces a slight irregular motion in the poles called nutation.

Precession of the Earth's axis is a very slow effect, but at the level of accuracy at which astronomers work, it does need to be taken into account. Note that precession has no effect on the inclination ("tilt") of the plane of the Earth's equator (and thus its axis of rotation) on its orbital plane. It is 23.5 degrees and precession does not change that. The inclination of the equator on the ecliptic does change due to gravitational torque, but its period is different (main period about 41000 years).

The following figure illustrates the effects of axial precession on the seasons, relative to perihelion and aphelion. The precession of the equinoxes can cause periodic climate change (see Milankovitch cycles), because the hemisphere that experiences summer at perihelion and winter at aphelion (as the southern hemisphere does presently) is in principle prone to more severe seasons than the opposite hemisphere.

Hipparchus first estimated Earth's precession around 130 BC, adding his own observations to those of Babylonian and Chaldean astronomers in the preceding centuries. In particular they measured the distance of the stars like Spica to the Moon and Sun at the time of lunar eclipses, and because he could compute the distance of the Moon and Sun from the equinox at these moments, he noticed that Spica and other stars appeared to have moved over the centuries.

Precession causes the cycle of seasons (tropical year) to be about 20.4 minutes less than the period for the earth to return to the same position with respect to the stars as one year previously (sidereal year). This results in a slow change (one day per 58 calendar years) in the position of the sun with respect to the stars at an equinox. It is significant for calendars and their leap year rules.

Due to the Earth's rotation, there is a slight equatorial bulge (and an offsetting depression at the poles). The maximum deviation from a sphere is only about 15 km, or 0.2% of the spherical radius. Nevertheless, since the axis of rotation of the Earth is inclined (tipped) relative to the plane of the Sun, Moon and planets (the ecliptic), the gravitational effect of the Moon (and to a lesser extent the Sun and planets) on the equatorial bulge causes a torque to be applied to the Earth. This is a rotational force in the direction that would decrease the inclination of the rotation axis.

As it spins, the Earth behaves somewhat like a gyroscope; it wants to maintain it's orientation (it is difficult to change it's direction). A bicycle wheel (particularly one with a loaded rim) is excellent as a demonstration gyroscope, although small toy gyroscopes work also. If we apply a torque to the gyroscope (balance the spinning bicycle wheel on one hand, and pull a string attached to top axle with the other), it's axis of rotation does not move toward you (the direction you are pulling), but perpendicular to that so that the axis traces out a circle. This is called precession. Another simple example of precession is the spinning of a top; because of variations in density of the top, its axis of rotation traces out a circle. [Note: in Physics labs, this demonstration is often done by hanging the bicycle wheel from the string, with its axis horizontal. This works well, but I think keeping the spinning axis vertical helps the students to visualize the Earth's coordinate system.]

We can see that the Earth's axis of rotation precesses, since we know that the North Star (Polaris) was not aligned with the rotational pole in the past (it wasn't the "North Star"), and appears to be moving away from that position, so that it won't be aligned in the future. By observing the apparent movement of the stars with respect to the rotational axis, we can determine that Earth's period of precession is almost 25,735 years (it will take 25,735 years for Polaris to become the North Star once again).

The quantity that relates the rate of precession to the amount of torque applied is the moment of inertia. The moment of inertia is related to the distribution of mass about the axis of rotation. If the mass is concentrated near the axis, the moment of inertia will be small, but if the mass is distributed outward, the moment of inertia will be large. For a constant torque, a small moment of inertia will result in a rapid rate of rotation. Ice skaters make use of this principle in their spins, and you can demonstrate this if you have a turntable that you can stand on. Hold your arms out and begin spinning; if you pull your arms in, you will spin much faster (be careful).

Since we have good estimates of the mass and distance of the Moon, and we can observe the rate of precession of the Earth, we may determine the moment of inertia of the Earth. It is 8.07 x 1037 kg-m2, or 0.33 M R2 (where M and R are the Earth's mass and average radius, respectively). A homogeneous sphere would have a moment of inertia of 0.4 M R2, so this indicates that the mass of the Earth is concentrated toward it's center (density increases inward). More importantly, however, the Earth's moment of inertia puts a very tight constraint on how the density increases inward.

------------------------------------------------------------Positions From StarCalc of

By the standards of modern astrometry, the earth is quite a wobbly platform from which to observe the sky. The earth's rotation rate is not uniform, its axis of rotation is not fixed in space, and even its shape and relative positions of its surface locations are not fixed. For the purposes of pointing a telescope to one-arcsecond accuracy, we need not worry about shape and surface feature changes, but changes in the orientation of the earth's rotation axis are very important.

In a sense, equatorial sky coordinates are a compromise between an earth-based system and one fixed with respect to distant stars. Right ascension and declination are quite analogous to longitude and latitude on the earth's surface. They share the same polar axis and equator, but the sky coordinate grid does not rotate with the earth's daily spin. However, apparent right ascension and declination are not fixed with respect to the stars because their coordinate frame follows the motion the earth's pole and equator. To be able to list star positions in catalogs, we have agreed to use the position of the earth's pole and equator at specified times, essentially snapshots of the RA and Dec coordinates at those times. January 1, 1950 and 2000 are the most common coordinate epochs.

The zero point of right ascension is not assigned to a particular celestial object in the same way that zero longitude is defined to be at Greenwich, England. Zero right ascension is the point where the sun appears to cross the celestial equator on its south to north journey through the sky in the spring. In three dimensions, the vernal equinox is the direction of the line where the plane of the earth's equator intersects the plane of the earth's orbit. Since the earth's orientation is constantly changing with respect to the stars, so does the position of the vernal equinox.

In practice, celestial coordinates are tied to observed objects because the location of the vernal equinox is hard to measure directly. The B1950 coodinate grid location is defined by the publish positions of stars in the fourth Fundamental-Katalog, FK4, and the J2000 system is based on FK5. These catalogs list mostly nearby stars so any definition of coordinates tied to these catalogs is subject to errors due to motions of the stars on the sky. The FK4 equinox is now known to drift with respect to the FK5 equinox by about 0.085 arcseconds per century, quite a bit by VLBI standards.

Currently, the most stable definition of J2000 coordinates is one based on about 400 extragalactic objects in the Radio Optical Reference Frame. This is heavily biased toward VLBI radio sources, but it will soon be tied to many more optical objects by the HIPPARCOS satellite. The RORF is stable to at least 0.020 arcseconds per century, and this is improving with better observations and a longer time base. The positional accuracy of the ensemble of 400 objects is about 0.0005 arcseconds.

For partly historical and partly practical reasons, the time variablity of the direction of the earth's rotation axis and an observatory's relation to it are divided into four components: precession, nutation, celestial pole offset, and polar motion. By definition, precession and nutation are mathematically defined through the adoption of the best available equations. Celestial pole offset and polar motion are observed offsets from the mathematical formulae and are not predictable over long periods of time. All four components are described in more detail below.

Neither the plane of the earth's orbit, the ecliptic, nor the plane of the earth's equator are fixed with respect to distant objects [ref 1]. The dominant motion is the precession of the earth's polar axis around the ecliptic pole, mainly due torques on the earth cause by the moon and sun. The earth's axis sweeps out a cone of 23.5 degrees half angle in 26,000 years.

The ecliptic pole moves more slowly. If we imagine the motion of the two poles with respect to very distant objects, the earth's pole is moving about 20 arcseconds per year, and the ecliptic pole is moving about 0.5 arcseconds per year. The combined motion and its effect on the position of the vernal equinox are called general precession. The predictable short term deviations of the earth's axis from its long term precession are called nutation as explained in the next section.

Equations, accurate to one arcsecond, for computing precession corrections to right ascension and declination for a given date within about 20 years of the year 2000 are

where y is the time from January 1, 2000 in fractional years, and the offsets in RA and Dec are in seconds of time and arcseconds, respectively. Very accurate telescope pointing calculations should use the exact equations given on pages 104 and 105 of ref [1].

Predictable motions of the earth's rotation axis on time scales less than 300 years are combined under nutation. This can be thought of as a first order correction to precession. The currently standard nutation theory is composed of 106 non-harmonically-related sine and cosine components, mainly due to second-order torque effects from the sun and moon, plus 85 planetary correction terms. The four dominant periods of nutation are 18.6 years (precession period of the lunar orbit), 182.6 days (half a year), 13.7 days (half a month), and 9.3 years (rotation period of the moon's perigee).

Normally, the corrections for precession and nutation in right ascension and declination will be handled by the telescope control computer. But, if you are stuck in the wilderness with a hand held calculator, or you want to check a position, the following approximation for nutation are good to about an arcsecond [ref 2].

where delta RA and delta Dec are added to mean coordinates to get apparent coordinates, and the nutations in longitude, dL, and obliquity of the ecliptic, dE, may be found in the Astronomical Almanac, pages B24-B31, or computed from the two largest terms in the general theory with

The celestial pole offset is the unpredictable part of nutation. These offsets are published in IERS Bulletin A as offsets in dL and dE. For telescope pointing they are not important since they are on the order of 0.03 arcseconds.

Because of internal motions and shape deformations of the earth, an axis defined by the locations of a set of observatories on the surface of the earth is not fixed with respect to the rotation axis which defines the celestial pole. The movement of one axis with respect to the other is called polar motion. For a particular observatory, it has the effect of changing the observatory's effective latitude as used in the transformation from terrestrial to celestial coordinates. The International Earth Rotation Service definition of the terrestrial reference frame axis is called the IERS Reference Pole (IRP) as defined by it's observatory ensemble.

The dominant component of polar motion, called Chandler wobble, is a roughly circular motion of the IRP around the celestial pole with an amplitude of about 0.7 arcseconds and a period of roughly 14 months. Shorter and longer time scale irregularities, due to internal motions of the earth, are not predictable and must be monitored by observation. The sum of Chandler wobble and irregular components of polar motion are published weekly in IERS Bulletin A along with predictions for a number of months into the future.

There is quite a variety of local and globle coordinate systems that may be used to describe locations on the surface of the earth. The three of most importance in astronomy, geocentric, geodetic, and astronomical, are briefly described here. See Chapter 4 of the Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac [ref 3] for a more complete discussion of terrestrial coordinates.

Geocentric coordinates are most useful for VLBI and pulsar timing where the observer's three-dimensional location in space is important. The reference planes are the equator, the Greenwich Meridian, and the plane through the earth's axis and perpendicular to the Greenwich Meridian, call it the east-west plane. A telescope's rectangular cordinate components (x,y,z) are

The closest simple approximation to the shape of the surface of the earth is an ellipse rotated around the earth's axis, an ellipsoid. The difference between the long and short axes of this ellipse is about 0.3%. The value of flattening [ref 4], adopted by the IERS in 1989 is [ref 5]

f = ( a - b ) / a = 1.0 / 298.275

where a is the equatorial axis, and b is the polar axis of the ellipsoid.

Geodetic coordinates are a measure of the direction of the line perpendicular to the ideal ellipsoid at the observer's location on the earth. Geodetic longitude is the same as geocentric longitude because they share the same reference meridian and axis. Geodetic and geocentric latitude can differ by as much as 10 arcminutes at mid latitudes. The ellipsoid is mathematical concept so you cannot measure from it directly, but it differs from mean sea level, also called the geoid, by less than 100 meters and more typically by less than 20 or 30 meters [ref 7].

Observatory longitude and latitude given in Section J of the Astronomical Almanac can be considered geodetic to the accuracy of the significant figures listed. Observatory elevation are listed above mean sea level. Until 1984 the Almanac gave the height displacement between the reference ellipsoid and mean sea level for a number observatories. This has been discontinued, and the definition of the reference ellipsoid has been refined in the meantime.

If geocentric coordinates for an observatory are not available directly they may be derived from geodetic coordinates using the equations given in ref [6].

The observatory coordinates that can be measured with only local information are astronomical or geographic longitude and latitude. They are defined by the local gravity vector and the direction of the celestial pole. Since the gravity vector is influenced by the local distribution of mass and density near the observatory, the difference between astronomical and geodetic coordinates can be as much as an arcminute.

For the purpose of pointing a telescope, astronomical coordinates are often sufficient. The conversion from altitude and azimuth to celestial coordinates can be made perfectly accurately using astronomical longitude and latitude and the sidereal time consistent with this longitude.

However, pointing corrections to most telescopes are on the order of minutes of arc and are determined from observations of celestial objects. Hence, there is no particular advantage to using astronomical coordinates. The local vertical and any known corrections are good starting points for determining telescope pointing. Once an altitude/azimuth coordinate system is defined on the basis of celestial measurements, it can be defined to be consistent with coordinates as defined in three dimensions by VLBI or some other technique.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time and energy to engage the supporters of Chandra Hari ayanamsa in a detailed debate. However, after having gone through all the material sent by Chandra Hari and his followers, I have a couple of things to say. Even if my advice helps one person, my purpose will be served. That is why I am speaking out.

Chandra Hari talks of Yogic breathing and what not. All that is fine, but it does not prove his ayanamsa. For example, zodiac has 21,600 minutes irrespective of where the zodiac starts. Thus, a long exposition on the significance of 21,600, breahting and Sun does not prove any ayanamsa.

Though he gives long-winding Yogic/Tantric discourses, a discering reader will find all of them irrelevant, as far as proving his ayanamsa is concerned. Though umpteen arguments are given by him, his proof finally boils down to JUST ONE AXIOM - Mooladhara chakram of Kala Purusha is in Moola nakshatram.

In my view, this crucial axiom of Chandra Hari does not stand a reasonable scrutiny. Mooladhara chakram is in the middle of the body and not in thighs or the 9th house. Kala purusha's lagna is at 0 deg Aries. The 240 deg point is the 9th house point. It is unacceptable to place Mooladhara chakram of Kala Purusha at 240 deg point. I cannot help but think that the fact that the nakshatra starting at that longitude is called Moola, i.e. similarity of names, must have misled Chandra Hari into placing Mooladhara chakram there!

There are fourteen worlds that Vedic scriptures talk about. In advaitic theory, they all exist within us. Normally in tradition, we take 7 upper worlds to be in the invisible half of the zodiac and 7 lower worlds to be in the visible half of the zodiac. The upper 7 worlds correspond to the 7 chakras from Mooladhara to Sahasrara. Mooladhara chakra corresponds to Bhoo Loka and should be in the house of desire, i.e. 7th house. Sahasrara chakra corresponds to Satya Loka and should be in the 1st house. Other chakras are in 1st-7th houses.

In my view, Mooladhara chakram of Kala Purusha is at 180 deg and Sahasrara chakram is at 0 deg. Thus, Lahiri (Chitrapaksha) ayanamsa is the ayanamsa that is based on fixing the Mooladhara chakram and not Chandra Hari's ayanamsa as claimed by him.

Even from the point of view of mapping houses to body parts, the 7th house corresponds to the vasti/basti (the sac that contains intestines and colon) area. That is where Mooladhara chakram is placed. If someone places Mooladhara chakram in the 8th house, I can atleast appreciate it (even though I will still disagree), as the 8th house is supposed to show private parts. Though Mooladhara chakram is not in private parts, it is atleast in their vicinity. But placing Mooladhara chakram in the 9th house is outright rejectable.

I am afraid Chandra Hari is biased because of the name of the nakshatra (Moola), convinced himself that that must be the Mooladhara chakram of Kala Purusha and then built his theory around that wrong assumption. Even the explanations of events given in his examples such as Tagore are totally unconvincing. Though he and his supporters claim that his explanations are simple and those of the Lahiri ayanamsa supporters are convolouted, I see it the other way around. For example, he thinks that lagna lord is a better candidate to take one abroad than the 12th lord, just because of placement in a watery sign. We all know which houses take one abroad and which houses keep one in motherland.

Unfortunately, every intelligent person who comes up with some theory or the other about a fundamental question of astrology, such as ayanamsa, will naturally attract a lot of followers. It is obvious that there are several strong followers of Chandra Hari ayanamsa on this list. They are quite aggressive in dismissing other people and sometimes they even ridicule the views of other schools in various matters. They seem to think that other people are using a wrong ayanamsa and hence whatever they do is based on wrong calculations and hence nonsense. They seem to have quite strong views on divisional charts etc too. We cannot change them.

But, FOR THOSE WHO CARE FOR MY VIEWS, I will give my final judgment after perusing all the material kindly sent to me by Chandra Hari and his followers. My judgment is that one is better off ignoring Chandra Hari ayanamsa. The correct ayanamsa is between Lahiri ayanamsa and Krishnamoorthy ayanamsa. In my judgment, Chandra Hari ayanamsa is way off.

Unfortunately, I do not have the time and energy to engage any supporters of Chandra Hari ayanamsa if they respond to my mail. I will have to ignore. The purpose of this mail is to guide those who want my guidance on this issue. Though I was sent some material by Chandra Hari's followers long back, I have waited till I read the literature and formed the final views.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha

~~ om sadâúiva gurave namah ~~Dear JyotisaPlease peruse this mail of Ch. PVR Narasimha Rao. I fully endorse this view point. I plan to spend time with Narasimha the coming year to work on the Ayanamsa and we will come out with a very fine answer. My findings are very similar that it is near the present Lahiri Ayanamsa.With best wishes & warm regards,Yours trulySanjay Rath

The chart needs to be seen as one whole element, For this the Naabhasa yoga are used. Nabhameans umbilical chord and naabha means the sky. Naabha (Sky/Zodiac) here represents the whole Brahma as he has come from umbilical chord of Vishnu. Hence Naabhasa can also mean the Lotus on which this world (Brahma) is created. The zodiac is like 12 Petal Lotus. And each petals in lotus gets a property due to grahas sitting on them.

Thus the composite chart analysis is done with the help of thumb rules given by Parashara in Naabhasa yoga. (Refer for more information http://srijagannath.org/jyotishdigest/vol-3-1.htm). Note that Parashara gives only basic thumb rules for Pure combinations to explain the general results. The student should try to intelligently gather the clues from the pure combinations and do proper implementation in actual variations. The rahu and ketu are avoided in pure combinations as they can give the results of firstly the dispositor and/or the conjunct graha. Rahu enhances bhoga and Ketu increased the Gyaana aspect of each graha.

The Naabhasa yoga identification is divided into 4 categories for creative purpose.

1) Aashraya yoga: the giver of support and protections, they are like the stalk of the lotus2) Dala Yoga: The 2 petals referring the Angya chakra indicates the path taken by individual in other words the path experienced by the person.3) Aakriti Yoga: Formation/Structure/Shape giver Yoga gives resources for the individual like the 20 Hands of Durga4)Saankhyaa Yoga : The natives creative tendency like the 7 rasa (juice/flavour) and denotes the general flavour of the person.

The Nabhaasa yoga indicate the permanent nature of the individual as Naabhasa form of identification is taking the whole chart into consideration and not individual combinations whose fruits may change with dasa.

The 4 classified yogas are now identified from various 4 quandrants in the chart. The lagna quadrant is important as it indicates the natives direct experience. Pay more attention to quadrants and graha formations seen around the quadrants.

Now if you see the chart in example observing from the quadrants you see 7th to Lagna quadrant is occupied. This gives Chattra yoga or Umbrella combination.

svajanAshrayo dayAvAnnAnAnR^ipavallabhaH prakR^ishhTamatiH | prathame.antye vayasi narAH sukhavAn.h dIrghAyurAtapatrI syAt.h || 38|| [BPHS] Effects: The person born in this yoga will provide protection to his family members and associates, be kind, will be very dear to the influential people in society (i.e. kings, ministers or persons of high statuts), will have excellent intelligence, be happy in the beginning and end of the life and be long lived. As the planets are placed in the visible half of the nativity, such persons will be of great excellence, good fortune in profession, obtaining favors from government and other organizations etc. If the 10 th house is occupied by benefics, they will also enjoy a good life even in their middle age.

So the prime focus of the person becomes 7,10 and 1st. So the persons focus will be much on Relationships, Profession and Name and resources for the same will become the much focus in individual's life as this is an Aakriti yoga identification. Now by the Dala Yoga indentification will give the actual way the experience will be, Here we see only malefics in quadrants. Saturn in 10th, Sun and Rahu in 1st and Ketu in 7th. The whole leads quide Sarpa snake like experience (opposite maalaa where the path is like walking on flowered road). So the person's overall path for fulfilment will be with much troubles. Since the sequence begins from 6th house the person will begin to solve his lives theme from joining a job or doing some service to establish his identity (Lagna).

You have not answered any of the questions in my previous mail, perhaps an oversight. So I will reproduce them again.

Question 1: Why do we need Drishti? And how do we understand the working of Drishti in real life terms.

Question 2: What is the explicit difference between Graha Drishti and Rashi Drishti?

Question 3: Where can the graha NOT have any Drishti what-so-ever?

Question 4: Does Drishti cause sambandha (relationship) and if so how?

Question 5: and for how long shall this sambandha caused by Drishti work? Is this forever right from birth till death or is this temporary over a period of time. If temporary how do we determine the working time?

Comments to other points are given below.

As i am flying to india, tomorrow morning, for a week's vacation,cannot address all your questions in detail.But will try.Please address my 3 queries.Unless we address those three queries,we are never going to reach any conclusion.

Rath: I shall patiently await your return, and when in India, please call me at 98104 49850 It will be a pleasure to meet with you.

Rath: Are there signs in the sky?

I do not have much differences here regarding your understanding.Also to me it is a model representing the link between Yogapurusha and Kalapurusha,as shri Chandrahari has rightly explained.Also Sun the natural atmakaraka or soul is the primary cause.But I have one difference.Kshethra and Rashi does not convey the same meaning ,though they are having similar boundaries.

Rath: I don't think you have read my mail. I will reproduce it again for a quick reference.You can see from the mail that you are saying exactly the same thing that I am saying and this is what the Rishi's have said for ages, so to say Chandrahari, your new guru said this and implying it wa said for the first time is wrong. It is well know to every student of Jyotish that rashi really weans weight and implies the amount of something. One of its sources is Rahu+Sikhi and so on which is besides the point. Kshetra is sphere of influence and has a different connotation altogether.

----------ref: previous mail----------

Rath: Are there signs in the sky? How are they created? from where did the rashi boundaries come? To my knowledge these signs are drawn solely on the basis of the movement of the Sun and the Sun alone is the master of all the rashi's. He then doles out duties to the grahas based on their abilities and nature and this is again based on proximity to power. Those close to him get kshetra (meaning areas of influence or governance or lordship like a feudal lord and not like the king) over signs adjoining his Leo/spouses (Moon) Cancer chamber.

Now coming to harmonics, how does lets say, Mars in Aries have harmonic with Saturn in Capricorn? OR let us say, how does Mars in Aries have harmonic with Venus in Taurus? Pleae explain so that I can understand what you mean by the use of the term harmonic

---------------------

Aspects

A planet has a desire and it can aspect only those Bhavas towards which it is Having a desire.

Rath: Where did you get this explanation from? An astrologer named Sanjay Rath!! has been teaching this and calling it Iccha shakti or desire. Is there a classical reference for this or are you going to follow the teachings of Sanjay Rath? He says that Planets represent animate beings and hence can also show Iccha or desire based on their aspects. So, you agree with me and have accepted this part of my teaching.

This is determined by Lagna.Without rising Lagna there is nothing in Jyotisha.

Rath: Lagna is the head. Now does the head show the desire or does the intelligence of the mind show the desire? A dead man also has a head (you can see this in any dead person as his head is also a part of the body). Does this head have desire? It is not the head that shows intelligence but the Paka Lagna that shows the intelligence - the animate lagna lord shows the human being alive and in action.

It is the HEAD -Limb of Kalapurusha.Lagna Navamsha does not show another HEAD.Why?Libra navamsha in Aries is not same as Libra navamsha in Gemini(I had given Kalyan Varma examples).Libra Navamsha in Aries can rise in the east only if Aries SIGN is rising.Similarly Libra Navamsha in Gemini can rise only if Gemini SIGN is rising.Rising Lagna becomes THE First Bhava.Is it possible otherwise Sanjayji!!!! .Then how can you study Libra navamsha in isolation.

Rath: Wrong. Lagna navamsa can show the head and in fact it can show physical head as well. For example, the following dictum:

1. If the Sun is in navamsa lagna the native shall have a big head

2. If the navamsa lagna is makara, then also the native shall have a big head

3. Ketu/Rahu in navamsa lagna (birth or janma is lagna) shall cause delivery with forceps [or surgery]...and so on

How do you explain all these dictum and so many more if you can't accept a navamsa chart i.e. how will the Sun be in navamsa lagna or svamsa.

What is Svamsa, Lagnamsa and Karakamsa? What are these terms for which complete chapters have been given in all classics?

...for example, look at my chart 7 Aug 1963, 9.15 pm, Sambalpur, India with Jupiter in Pisces in lagna and explain the circumstances of my birth. Can you do that?

Now can your good self think why Kalyan Varma, never explain any navamsha in isolation.

Rath: Kalyana Verma assumed that you have read the previous works of Varahamihira and other classics before you read his work. This is explicitly stated in Saravali. He only gave those portions which were either not there in the classic texts as a clear reference or clarified the position of Jyotish w.r.t Yavana Jataka (European Astrology) which had also arrived at the court at that time.Also a planet is aspecting the 7th from itself due to an Astrological Reason.Seventh bhava shows our interactive environment.

Rath: Where did you get that 'interactive environment'? Can you give me the classical reference? If you cannot then I will give not only the reference but also the exact meaning and it is not 'interactive environment'.

Similar to Man and Woman - they have a desire to unite.

Rath: What about 'Man and Man' or 'Woman and Woman' and 'Man and Child' and 'Father and Son' and so on? How will they interact or unite? Seventh house??

For Poorna Chandra to happen, there is only one and only one physical possibilty.Sun and Moon should be longitudinally opposite.If Sun and Moon are 1/7 in a ''varga chart''(and not in Rashi chakra) it DOES NOT correspond to full moon.They have no mutual sambandha based on navamsha position ALONE.It learly shows Bhavas and Vargas are exclusive concepts.The confusion can be Attributed only to the similarity in span between a Rashi and Kshethra. Rath: May I ask - Why it does not? Where is the classical reference for saying that tithi varga cannot happen? In fact there are clear dicta for 'Tithi Varga'. Are you aware of this term? For example there is the Santana Tithi explained in Prasna Marga and not only the method of calculating this Tithi varga is given but also results and Remedial measures are given for various Tithi Varga like Poorna Tithi and so on. So your information/knowledge in this aspect is lacking. Please read this.

There is a mathematical as well as philosophical(essence and purpose of Jyotish) part involved.Mathematics is not the reason.It is the frame that helps all of us to study Jyotish objectively.

Rath: Did anybody say this before I said this publicly in the lists - yes there were others like Bipin Behari andJagannath Bhasin but who listened to them? It is nice to note that we are on the same table here, as without Philosophy the essence of Jyotish is lost.

Mathematical part is used to understand the latent, astrological purpose.If a rule is set for an aspect it remains the same.It is outside the bracket of Kshethra/Navamsha.We cannot say a planet placed 20 degrees from each other can cast full aspect in Navamsha.

Rath: We can, provided we know what Aspect (assuming you mean Drishti when you use this word, which is a terrible translation really) means. It is the mathematics which is difficult to understand as we are used to elementary geometry in everything and are not prepared to think in abstract terms. Then even the mathematics becomes easy to understand. It is the philosophy which is easier to follow and not the mathematics. Thatswhy the arguments you have been giving against the use of navamsa as a chart are largely simple geometry and not philosphical.

Rath: Planets can conjoin in navamsa only if we are allowed to draw a navamsa chart.

Whether we draw another chart or not planetary inlfuences will remain.What we see in Navamsha is not a placement(Yuti).Rather a different influence.Placement is what we call as Kshethra influence.If two planets are conjoining they are Individually related to that sign.

Rath: Are we saying the same thing?? Can you give an example to show me the difference between what we are saying here?

So When we say Mars is in Aris, then Mars is Yuti Aries and is in Aries Kshetra and Mars in NOT in Aries Rashi!!! Is this what you are saying?? Can you tell me what are the results of Mars in Aries Kshetra and kindly give me the classical reference also for this which is different for Mars in Aries Rashi.

Rath:Mars in Aries have harmonic with Saturn in Capricorn? OR let us say, how does Mars in Aries have harmonic with Venus in Taurus?

Mars in Aries points to a first harmonic relationship of Mars with Aries (Yuti).Saturn in Capricorn too shows similar.Kshethra is first harmonic - showing the first kind of influence a planet is having with a sign.Now suppose the navamsha of Mars too falls in Aries(say Mars is at 3 degrees in Aries) -It means Mars has two kinds of relationship with sign Aries,from the same position in space.The second one being a ninth harmonic.

Any of a series of musical tones whose frequencies are integral multiples of the frequency of a fundamental tone.

A tone produced on a stringed instrument by lightly touching an open or stopped vibrating string at a given fraction of its length so that both segments vibrate. Also called overtone, partial, partial tone.

harmonics(used with a sing. verb) The theory or study of the physical properties and characteristics of musical sound.

Physics. A wave whose frequency is a whole-number multiple of that of another.

Thus when used as an adjective it can mean integrated in nature, but you use the term as a noun when you say first harmonic and then it has to have a reference to a fundamental tone or base frequency or a base chart. Thats precisely what I am trying to say that the Rasi chart or D1 chart is the base or fundamental tone and the vargas are harmonics of this base tone. In Jyotish the mana is at five levels called pancha mana and the base tone has 12 frequencies form D1 to D12 and higher charts are harmonics of these base charts. These base charts from D2 to D12 are also derived from D1 and are, in a sence attached to the parent and in another sence, independant of the parent chart or D1. Just as a child, even when attached to its father is yet free and independant although retaining so many genes and name, so also the D1 chart which is created from the D12 of the conception chart is also free from it to a large extent.

Now let us suppose, if this Mars is at 28 degrees in Aries.Then it is in the Dashamsha of Saturn namely capricorn.This means apart from its placement and Yuti in Aries,Mars is having another relationship with the sign Capricorn.The frequency through which it relates to Capricorn is not similar to as it does with Aries.This is the tenth harmonic influence.

Rath: What is the base tone for the tenth harmonic to occur? How does this harmonic work? Is it the same as what we call Rasi Tulya Dasamsa or Dasamsa Tulya Rashi or is this something else? What is this used for? Parasara says profession. Can you give me an illustration as to what results you would expect from say...Rahu in Gemini in Rasi in Aquarius Dasamsa. Here Rahu is exalted in Rasi and in own dasamsa.

Rath: One more thing - am I supposed to know all the answers?

Pradeep:Sanjay ji,this is the most honest opinion.It is not at all possible that we know all the answers.But why should we prolifereate ideas when we ourselves are not sure.When doubts are arising,(it can be from me or a Guru like you),are we not responsible to take a Relook.

Rath: I teach something ONLY when I am 'bloody sure' of what I am talking (sorry for the adjective, but the extent of the surity had to be conveyed through words in English of which I have a rather limited vocabulary). I am constantly reading, learning and as software chaps say 'upgrading'. So in days to come you will hear a lot more about vargas. In fact I stalled the book only for this reason as I want to include every varga under the Sun in it.

Some of the most important lessons for me from my Guru has been -

'Don't touch the pen if youare not sure of what you are going to write', and later he taught,

You can never be sure of what you are writing if your mana is not convinced, and the mana is only convinced if the mantra is within you.

Rath: Please don't thank me. Thank my Guru Kashinatha who gave me the knowledge and Jagannath who has given me some time in this planet.

My queries have been elementary in nature.Plain basics.Thus i do not feel those having extra ordinary standard.Your kind self may check again.

Rath: What seems basic questions the very foundation and philosophy of creation, and thyen this is no longer basic.>> 1)Graha Drishti - Except for shadbala calculations, we generally go> by house wise aspects(approximation of longitudinal aspect).For> shadbala, we go by exact longitude and quantify.It is a known fact> that for Bhava Phala Niroopana,aspects are used based on houses.>> Rath: Are house wise aspects approximation of longitudinal aspect? In that case we will be going against the various definitions of bhava. What happens if a planet is in one house in the rasi chart and then goes to another house in the bhava chart. What happens to its aspects? For example if Mars is in Lagna in Mesha in Rasi chart and then goes to 12th house in chalit or bhava chakra, will the 'special 8th house aspect in the bhava chart be to the 7th house or will it still be to Scorpio?

Pradeep:A planet has maximum influence (full influence) at 180 degrees from its placement.seven houses is the approximation.Whether it is Bhavachart or rashi chart - 30 degree boundaries forms basis for our approximation.Rath: That is provided we are going into calculation of the strengths of the drishti. And before we can do that let us first have a clarification of the following questions, questions that were raised in the year 1996 and 1997 in a List called Jyotish List in Majordomo when KN Rao went to look for books that he had in a trunk under his bed ... let us start from ground zero as my gurudeva always said.

Question 1: Why do we need Drishti? And how do we understand the working of Drishti in real life terms.

Question 2: What is the explicit difference between Graha Drishti and Rashi Drishti?

Question 3: Where can the graha NOT have any Drishti what-so-ever?

Question 4: Does Drishti cause sambandha (relationship) and if so how?

Question 5: and for how long shall this sambandha caused by Drishti work? Is this forever right from birth till death or is this temporary over a period of time. If temporary how do we determine the working time?

>>> 2)If a planet is aspecting a house without any placement - We can> only find the Drishti Kendra ie the point of maximum influence.Mars> aspecting Libra sign is a perfect example.This aspect of Mars is> based on longitudinal dispositions of the sign in which Mars is> placed as well as the aspected Sign.These are recorded/measured in> terms of degrees - multiples of 30 degree signs.Please do not mix> Navamsha,Dashamsha etc with this.Mars is aspecting the sign Libra> which inturn is assuming roles of Navamsha,Dashamasha,Kshethra etc.>> Rath: I have not readthe previous posts so would not like to comment, but what I am making out of this is that if Mars is aspecting Tula rashi in the rashi chakra, then it aspects Tula rashi in the navamsa, dasamsa and all other divisional charts!!! Wow. I had never heard of this. Is this the suggestion Vijaydas ji.

Pradeep:It is not all other divisional charts.A planet is aspecting a sign.That sign can be a navamsha or dashamsha for a planet.Rath: Why are you limiting it now? If you say that a planet aspecting the sign in the rasi chart will aspect the same sign in all varga. Unless you are taking aspect to mean the exact 180 degree point only and not the whole sign.>[Points 3 to 8 deleted as they seem to be satisfactory so far]

> Rath: Hang on! Harmonic is not the translation for Vargottama. I have heard this word being used too often in the west for almost anything including relationships!!!

Pradeep:In this example vargottama just coincided with and it has nothing to do with harmonics.Pls read the points without Vargottama.

Rath: OK ignoring these points 6, 7 and 8 as they do not seem to be relevant any more.>> 9)Difference between Point 7 and point 8 is - In point 7 it was a 1> to 1 or first harmonic sambandha while in point 8 it is a ninth> harmonic sambandha.This is the very purpose of harmonics.>> Rath: My understanding was that D1 does NOT have a harmonic with D9 instead it has a harmonic with D13 (if there is any D13 chart)...

Pradeep:I have understood D1 as explained by Parashara.Kshethra.Griha of a planet.From this kshethra it has harmonic inlfuences with other signs.

Rath: Are there signs in the sky? How are they created? from where did the rashi boundaries come? To my knowledge these signs are drawn solely on the basis of the movement of the Sun and the Sun alone is the master of all the rashi's. He then doles out duties to the grahas based on their abilities and nature and this is again based on proximity to power. Those close to him get kshetra (meaning areas of influence or governance or lordship like a feudal lord and not like the king) over signs adjoining his Leo/spouses (Moon) Cancer chamber.

Now coming to harmonics, how does lets say, Mars in Aries have harmonic with Saturn in Capricorn? OR let us say, how does Mars in Aries have harmonic with Venus in Taurus? Pleae explain so that I can understand what you mean by the use of the term harmonic.

>> 10)When two planets are conjunct in a sign acting as Navamsha - it> is infact showing the sambandha those planets are having with that> particular sign.To find aspects above that can only be some kind of> poetical imagination and has no rational at all(Cannot be reconciled> with Parasharas aspectual rules).>> Rath: Who says so? How often have you found this to happen?? Is that the meaning of vargottama? The word Vargottama is from Varga and Uttama or the best. Now will Mercury in 27 deg Pices be in the best sign in rasi and navamsa? Is this understanding correct? Or is there another interpretation of this...have you seen my paper on navamsa.

Pradeep:It has nothing to do with Vargottama.As i have said the navamsha which i had chosen was vargottama(coincidence). Kindly explain when do two planets conjunct,astronomically in navamsha.

Rath: Planets can conjoin in navamsa only if we are allowed to draw a navamsa chart. In our discussion of basics have we arrived at that stage? Have we you and Narasimha reached that stage of debate/deliberation where it is convincing enough that a navamsa chart is allowed to be drawn? If you have reached that stage then I would like to ask a few questions. >> 11)If you are trying to bring furhter degrees - It is nothing but> MOVEMENT from one NAVAMSHA to another NAVAMSHA.This has not been> sanctioned by Sage and please don't make any such assumptions.This> will create further problems similar to ''TWO ZODIACS concept''.>> Rath: What further degrees? Not clear about the debate. Can you give me the references or the mail links.

Pradeep:Eg.Gemini Navamsha within Aries rashi is related to Gemini sign.If we find degrees again within Gemini sign to understand the same navamsha - we are talking about further degrees.Or in other words moving from one navamsha to another.Rath: A planet lets say Mars in Gemini navamsa in Aries sign brings the influence of Mars in Gemini in the rasi chart based on "Rasi tulya Navamsa principle".

When we talk of degrees within the Gemini navamsa i.e. within 6.40' to 10.00' of Aries, then we are talking of fines divisions and this will depend on the even finer division talked about. Lets day we break thisinto another nine parts, then this becomes D81 or if this part is broken into 12 parts then we are talking about D108. Degrees within a navamsa do not explain the nature of the navamsa but they do explain even finer things about the bodies contained in these parts.

Thanks a lot again for your time.But my doubts are very simple and will post them as a seperate mail.Just 2 or 3 simple questions.Rath: My pleasure. I will try but it is you who is leading everyone to enlightenment in jyotish. One more thing - am I supposed to know all the answers? Is it also possible that there are things none of us in this list know and perhaps no living human beign today is aware of. If so, how do we propose to deal with that? Can we live with this knowing that we don't know?Kind regdsPradeep

You are among the few who have kept the standards high although this may have caused some heart burn..even in me sending me back to my books. For that I will always give you credit. ...frankly I have been travelling too much , thanks to you and others for the support for all this.

Are these the 11 points?

Summary of my understanding and points discussed so far.

1)Graha Drishti - Except for shadbala calculations, we generally goby house wise aspects(approximation of longitudinal aspect).Forshadbala, we go by exact longitude and quantify.It is a known factthat for Bhava Phala Niroopana,aspects are used based on houses.

Rath: Are house wise aspects approximation of longitudinal aspect? In that case we will be going against the various definitions of bhava. What happens if a planet is in one house in the rasi chart and then goes to another house in the bhava chart. What happens to its aspects? For example if Mars is in Lagna in Mesha in Rasi chart and then goes to 12th house in chalit or bhava chakra, will the 'special 8th house aspect in the bhava chart be to the 7th house or will it still be to Scorpio?

2)If a planet is aspecting a house without any placement - We canonly find the Drishti Kendra ie the point of maximum influence.Marsaspecting Libra sign is a perfect example.This aspect of Mars isbased on longitudinal dispositions of the sign in which Mars isplaced as well as the aspected Sign.These are recorded/measured interms of degrees - multiples of 30 degree signs.Please do not mixNavamsha,Dashamsha etc with this.Mars is aspecting the sign Librawhich inturn is assuming roles of Navamsha,Dashamasha,Kshethra etc.

Rath: I have not readthe previous posts so would not like to comment, but what I am making out of this is that if Mars is aspecting Tula rashi in the rashi chakra, then it aspects Tula rashi in the navamsa, dasamsa and all other divisional charts!!! Wow. I had never heard of this. Is this the suggestion Vijaydas ji.

3)A planet has a single position and hence a single longitude at apoint in time.Based on this position it has numerousinfluences.These infleunces are understood through Vargas.Pls don'tconfuse this with Grahadrishti mentioned above.There isno ''further'' longitude needed to understand this sambandha.

Rath: I agree with this position. The recent trend of taking the proportional longitude in vargas is fascinating. But I am not discouraging that as it has to be studied at some point of time.

4)For example Varga Bala is not calculated based on longitudes.It isbased on Planet/Rashi sambandha.Each harmonic sambandha has aspecific purpose(eg Navamsha for spouse).When we relate this withthe relevant bhava in Rashi chakra,picture becomes clear.I had givenclassical references.

Rath: Agree with this also and this in harmony with the previous statement.

Rath: Desire and Resources are different things altogether. The desire comes form the graha dristi or the drig bala and the resources to achieve this desire comes from the varga or divisional chart (or division...whatever you use).

6)Kshethra placement shows conjunction.This means a planet placed ina sign is conjunct that sign.Navamsha shows ninth harmonicinfluence.It means a particular planet from its place of occupationhas a harmonic relationship with another sign.In both the cases theinfluence is on the sign and not on any specific longitude.Longitudeis a qualification for the planet and not amshas.

7)For example, assume that planet Venus is placed at 27 degrees inPisces.This is the only placement it has in Zodiac.Now sage hasdefined Zodiac as having 12 signs.3 degrees forward from 27 dgreesin Pisces and 27 degrees backward from 27 degrees in Pisces is theKshethra in which Venus is placed.This is the first Varga or firstharmonic influence.In other words Venus is treated as conjunctingthe sign Pisces.The whole 30 degree sector is having 1 to 1relationship with Pisces.In other wordsit is the first division.

8)20 minutes backward from 27 degrees in pisces and 3 degreesforward from 27 degrees in pisces constitutes the navamsha divisionin which Venus is placed.Parashara defined this sector within Piscesas Pisces Navamsha(no further degrees).This 3.2 degree sector isthus having a harmonic influence with Pisces.Vargottama Navamsha.

Rath: Hang on! Harmonic is not the translation for Vargottama. I have heard this word being used too often in the west for almost anything including relationships!!!

9)Difference between Point 7 and point 8 is - In point 7 it was a 1to 1 or first harmonic sambandha while in point 8 it is a ninthharmonic sambandha.This is the very purpose of harmonics.

Rath: My understanding was that D1 does NOT have a harmonic with D9 instead it has a harmonic with D13 (if there is any D13 chart)...

10)When two planets are conjunct in a sign acting as Navamsha - itis infact showing the sambandha those planets are having with thatparticular sign.To find aspects above that can only be some kind ofpoetical imagination and has no rational at all(Cannot be reconciledwith Parasharas aspectual rules).

Rath: Who says so? How often have you found this to happen?? Is that the meaning of vargottama? The word Vargottama is from Varga and Uttama or the best. Now will Mercury in 27 deg Pices be in the best sign in rasi and navamsa? Is this understanding correct? Or is there another interpretation of this...have you seen my paper on navamsa.

11)If you are trying to bring furhter degrees - It is nothing butMOVEMENT from one NAVAMSHA to another NAVAMSHA.This has not beensanctioned by Sage and please don't make any such assumptions.Thiswill create further problems similar to ''TWO ZODIACS concept''.

Rath: What further degrees? Not clear about the debate. Can you give me the references or the mail links.

See how many signs are involved even if we consider Rasi alone. It can be more than 8 if we take AVmax sign of Guru also. Some of these features may coincide in one rasi. Even then Guru's tranist through 5 - 6 signs can give children. Guru in one position aspects 3 signs. So at any time if we consider all signs that is said below 1 to 8 some "Putra_Rasi" will be under the influence of Guru. I think this is something all can understand.

Under this predicament, just imagine someone applies such formulae to Vargas treated as independent. Guru shall cause children in all rasis? Then how shall one predict? Postmortem will be wonderful.

We must do research but research must be methodical and intelligent. I am sorry if I am wrong in the above perception. I have few more doubts -

If someone says that aspects and transits are applicable to Navamsa, then what about Kendra_Trikona positions?

Rajayoga have been predicted in respect of what - Rasi or other Vargas? Or you say everywhere there are Rajayogas and have equal strengths?

A planet is beneficial for the native based on Lagna - is it? Can that change in the case of Varga where Lagna may be different?

See for Kanya Lagna is Mars is dire malefic and so it will be for the native. Now say Kanya has navamsa in Leo. Shall malefics Mars become benevolent for spouse?

4. How the strength is attributed in Varga_Bala calculations – Rasi is more important and contributes more strength than other Vargas? If yes why?

Surya Rao

1) The sign in which the 5th lord is posited.2)The sign in which the Navamsa of 5th lord is posited3) The sign in which the 5th lord from Moon is posited.4) The sign in which the Navamsa of 5th lord from moon is posited.5) The sign in which the 5th lord from Ju is posited.6) The sign in which the Navamsa of 5th lord from Ju is posited.7) The sign in which Mandi is posited.8) The sign in which the Navamsa of Mandi is posited.

Will 'tad-amsa-ke' always be interpreted as navamsa? When will other vargas come into the picture? Incidentally, I agree with your fundamental doubt that if all those rules are applied they cover almost all signs implying that pregnancy can happen anytime and does not depend on transits!!!

To the questions you raise, I have views to offer:

1. Kendra and trikona positions are also applicable. See the dictum of Parasara on the calculation of strength. You will find a clear dictum on the use of kendra in vargas.

2. Awaiting a respose from others on this...very good question/point.

3. Yes. Good and bad happen in every dasa, and it is not always that bad must happen in every field of life. For example if Mars is giving a negative indication in the rasi chart as the 8th lord then it hampers health and energy and indicates a difficult period and if in the navamsa it is a yogakaraka and is well placed then these problems will not be felt in marriage. If it is also 8th lord in say another varga then in that varga the negative effects will be surely felt.

4. Are you sure that the rasi has the most important position or strength in Varga strength (Vimsopaka bala) calculation? I thought it was the shastyamsa D60 chart which has the maximum weightage. Please check and get back. This is really basic.

Will 'tad-amsa-ke' always be interpreted as navamsa? When will other vargas come into the picture? that depends on the context that the author addresses. But general use that is found in texts refer to navamsa by amsa. So unless otherwise stated mostly it is taken as navamsa. If your question is in respect of different meanings possible, the basic meaning of amsa in Jyotihsastra is 'bhaga' or degree.

Rath: That still does not answer the basic question. When will other vargas come into the picture.

Vargas are part of Rasi and not independent and as such the question when will don' arise. "When will?" is not a part of my thinking as I don't treat Varga as separate from Rasi.

Incidentally, I agree with your fundamental doubt that if all those rules are applied they cover almost all signs implying that pregnancy can happen anytime and does not depend on transits!!! When you agree on this aspect, how do you advocate the use of independent Vargas, ATPs, Arudha in varga, Arudha in ATPs, Rajayoga in Vargas etc All this will lead to a situation of chaos in Jyotisha where anything and everything can be justified if not with Rasi with some Varga or ATP or Annual Tajaka or some Dasa, Vimsottari, Kalachakra, Narayana in rasi or if it fails from some Varga. It is in this context I had raised other questions. I must thank you for concurring with my view in this regard.

Rath: There is a huge universe but everything is in perfect order if you havethe vision of Jagannath Vishnu and everything is in chaos if you do not have this vision. To try to explain away this huge gigantic creation, with its multiple subtleties and multiple environments in just one rasi chart is trying to turn a blind eye to the existence of this vast truth. The rasi chart holds it all but it can be seen with the microscope of the vragas, and the events timed with the various dasa tools as they represent different aspects of the universe and its working. I concurred with the questioning and that this view is correct as how can we time the birth of children when Jupiter's transit in any sign is going to give a child! That automatically brings out the need for the Saptamsa chart.You have not answered my point in the context of objectivity of horoscope interpretation. We are not discussing the Universe that is "anantam, ajnatam, avarnaneeyam...". Issue pertains to delineation of a chart and how such proliferation of extrapolated techniques can be tolerated in the name of research?

To the questions you raise, I have views to offer:

1. Kendra and trikona positions are also applicable. See the dictum of Parasara on the calculation of strength. You will find a clear dictum on the use of kendra in vargas.

Irrespective of what Parasara says in some isolated verse of a spurious text like BPH, we must look with objectivity as to the consequences of such conceptions. Question comes only if you uphold that Vargas are independent. I have already refuted the independence of Vargas in my posting and I am awaiting some response.

Rath: BPHS is a compilation of Poorva Khanda and Uttara khanda of the text written by Parasara. If you say this is wrong, then so be it. So what is the source of your Jyotish? Where are you studying Jyotish from? Is it the Puranas or some other texts? Then, according to you, the entire India/world of astrology which practises Parasari Jyotish is wrong...What about Jaimini? Do you agree with this text at least or do you say this is also spurious?

we must look with objectivity as to the consequences of such conceptions. Question comes only if you uphold that Vargas are independent. I have already refuted the independence of Vargas in my posting and I am awaiting some response.

All ancient works except Vedas have evolved over ages and it is possible that errors have kept into them. We need objective study to understand them. An isolated verse or two if it run contrary to fundamentals, must be rejected.

2. Awaiting a respose from others on this...very good question/point.

3. Yes. Good and bad happen in every dasa, and it is not always that bad must happen in every field of life. For example if Mars is giving a negative indication in the rasi chart as the 8th lord then it hampers health and energy and indicates a difficult period and if in the navamsa it is a yogakaraka and is well placed then these problems will not be felt in marriage. If it is also 8th lord in say another varga then in that varga the negative effects will be surely felt.

Here again you are taking Varga as independent. There cannot be any independent Varga characterization for Planets as the benevolence or malevolence the planets derive from the rising point - Lagna of Rasi. I have already explained the irrationality of treating Lagna_Navamsa as Lagna for anything. There is only one Lagna in a Kundali and that is the rising point over East which renders the Karmic qualities to the chart and its associated parameters. If for Aries_Lagna with Navamsa in Libra, there is no Libra rising and any extrapolation of the Rasi concepts to other Vargas is an unscientific step.

Rath: I have wriiten books where I have shown the use of the various Lagna in the divisional charts for children, spouse etc. In this line I am joined by K N Rao and B V Raman. I wrote in the lines of teachings of my grandfather in his book "Shodasa Varga" (Oriya Language).

There is only one Lagna in a Kundali and this is the exact cusp of the ascendant in the eastern horizon in the sidereal zodiac and this ascendant manifests with different natures in different aspects of life. For marriage and dharma it manifests as the Navamsa Lagna, for co-born it manifests as the Parasari Drekkana Lagna, for Karma viveka it manifests as the Jagannatha Drekkana Lagna, For Karma Phala it manifests as the Dasamsa Lagna and so on. That is the nature of Prajapati, for it is Prajapati Who is creating all beings and this is the lagna cusp.

Definitioon of anything as scientific or unscientific depends on the parameters used. I will comment on this when you define what parameters of 'scientific definition' have been overlooked.

You have not answered my point. Do you accept that Vargas are not independent? I have discussed this matter in sufficient details above. You have not answered on the point I have discussed. KN Rao and BV Raman, names add no credibility to any work. BV Raman and KN Rao followed such Varga theory with two ayanamsas differing by 1.5 degree nearly. So we can have a feel of the validity of their claims. You yourself have rejected Raman ayanamsa as wrong. So Sri BV Raman's certificate for any Varga theory has no validity.

As I said above, Varga Lagna is within Rasi _Lagna and has no independent existence with which the Rasi conceptions of aspects, yogas, lordships, dasas, longitudes etc can be extrapolated to Varga charts conceived independently.

4. Are you sure that the rasi has the most important position or strength in Varga strength (Vimsopaka bala) calculation? I thought it was the shastyamsa D60 chart which has the maximum weightage. Please check and get back. This is really basic.

Please check as to how I had raised that point. If I remember correctly, I had raised a question mark as I had a doubt. Anyway I will have a detailed look at the rationale of Vargabala and will give my view. Not only this is basic all the aspects that we have discussed are basic. It is the spurious research that is polluting the basics and confuses the students.

Rath: Awaiting your findings patiently.

You may have a look at the Kunda_kriya as is being shown in some SJC docs.

Rath: Which docs are these? Kindly show them so that we can have them reviewed and altered if necessary.

Those details given below ie Prasna Marga is quoted in "Tattvas and Birth Rectification' by Visti_Larzen.

Prasnamarga is quoted as the source but the method explained is something different. Prasnamarga, Ch. V, verse 8 says that Kundalagam has to be Janmatara or Anujanma tara and as such it must be linked to Moon. But now under research such basic rules have been misinterpreted without giving the rationale of research and verification achieved.

Rath: Thats for Prasna charts. What about Karma Taraa? In Orissa we use this as well. Is the linkage to the Moon because of Manushya Jaataka? I would think so. Which rules have been misinterpreted or misunderstood?

Kunda_kriya as I know links Lagna and Moon. I have not come across any other use except in the above doc where Kunda_Lagna is (Lagnax81) is again equated to Lagna. Can it be possible as a Lagna rectification method? Can Lagna be rectified by multiplying and then equating with itself?

To judge this aspect, do we need to think of Manushyajataka and Prasna etc. Please have some reflections.

I am thankful for your agreement mentioned at the outset and I hope that we will be able to have more fruitful exchange of views in future.

Rath: Of course.

Surya Rao

Dear Surya

Can you give me even one example where you use the saptamsa?With best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay Rath