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That’s what I meant. Dem candidates could use these folks to position themselves in the middle.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

We're going to have a crisis where Trump will be implicated in foreign influence things and the GOP dominated House will refuse to do anything about it, aren't we. The Democrats will scream for impeachment while the GOP screams "fake news".

We're going to have a crisis where Trump will be implicated in foreign influence things and the GOP dominated House will refuse to do anything about it, aren't we. The Democrats will scream for impeachment while the GOP screams "fake news".

It's going to be a mess.

Nah, they're politicians, they'll do whatever is politically expedient, and 'standing by your man' is never politically expedient.

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Wall Street Journal Editorial Board:

*****

The Trump First Doctrine

Putin respects strength but Trump showed weakness.

Donald Trump left for Europe a week ago with his reputation enhanced by a strong Supreme Court nomination. He returned Monday with that reputation diminished after a tumultuous week of indulging what amounts to the Trump First Doctrine.

Mr. Trump marched through Europe with more swagger than strategy. His diplomacy is personal, rooted in instinct and impulse, and he treats other leaders above all on how much they praise Donald J. Trump. He says what pops into his head to shock but then disavows it if there’s a backlash. He criticizes institutions and policies to grab headlines but then claims victory no matter the outcome.

The world hasn’t seen a U.S. President like this in modern times, and as ever in Trump World everyone else will have to adapt. Let’s navigate between the critics who predict the end of world order and the cheerleaders who see only genius, and try to offer a realistic assessment of the fallout from a troubling week.

• NATO. The result here seems better than many feared. Mr. Trump bullied the allies with rhetoric and insulted Germany by claiming it is “totally controlled” by Russia. But his charges about inadequate military spending and Russia’s gas pipeline had the advantage of being true, as most leaders acknowledged.

The 23-page communique that Mr. Trump endorsed is a solid document that improves NATO’s capabilities to deter and resist a threat from Russia. Mr. Trump’s last-minute demand that countries raise military spending to 4% of GDP was weird, but he is right that more countries are likely to meet the 2% target.

One risk is that Mr. Trump’s constant criticism of NATO will undermine public support for it in the U.S.—and, more dangerously, undermine the alliance’s deterrence against Russia. If Vladimir Putin concludes Mr. Trump isn’t willing to protect the Baltic states, he may pull another Crimea.

• The Brits. Mr. Trump turned a friendly visit into a fiasco by criticizing Prime Minister Theresa May’s Brexit strategy in an interview with the Sun newspaper. He backtracked a day later, calling his own comments on tape “fake news,” and Mrs. May was gracious.

But Mr. Trump should encourage a U.S.-British post-Brexit trade deal both in the U.S. interest and to help Britain negotiate the most favorable Brexit terms from the European Union. Other leaders will conclude from his rude treatment of Mrs. May that working with Mr. Trump is more perilous than fighting him.

• The EU. In contrast to NATO, Mr. Trump does seem to want to undermine the European compact. He called it a “foe” on trade, which will make negotiating a better trade deal even less likely. He seems determined to impose a 20% or higher tariff on European autos to strike at Germany, which would also hit France and others.

The U.S. isn’t part of the EU, but American Presidents have found it useful as an ally to leverage sanctions against, say, Russia or Iran. Mr. Trump is stoking European resentments that will bite back sooner or later when he wants Europe’s help.

• Russia. Details from the private Trump-Putin talks in Helsinki will spill out in coming days, but Monday’s joint press conference was a personal and national embarrassment. On stage with the dictator whose election meddling has done so much harm to his Presidency, Mr. Trump couldn’t even bring himself to say he believed his own intelligence advisers like Dan Coats over the Russian strongman.

“I have—I have confidence in both parties,” Mr. Trump said. “So I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.” Denials from liars usually are strong and powerful.

The charitable explanation for this kowtow to the Kremlin is that Mr. Trump can’t get past his fury that critics claim his election was tainted by Russian interference. And so he couldn’t resist, in front of the world, going off on a solipsistic ramble about “ Hillary Clinton’s emails” and Democratic “servers.” He can’t seem to figure out that the more he indulges his ego in this fashion, and the more he seems to indulge Mr. Putin, the more ammunition he gives to his opponents.

For a rare moment in his Presidency, Mr. Trump also projected weakness. He was the one on stage beseeching Mr. Putin for a better relationship, while the Russian played it cool and matter of fact. Mr. Trump touted their personal rapport, saying the bilateral “relationship has never been worse than it is now. However, that changed as of about four hours ago. I really believe that.” In four hours?

Mr. Putin focused on his agenda of consolidating Russian strategic gains in Syria, Ukraine and arms control, and suggesting that the American might help. Mr. Trump even seemed to soften his stance against Russia’s Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Germany.

***
By going soft on Mr. Putin, Mr. Trump will paradoxically find it even harder to make deals with the Russian. Republicans and Democrats will unite in Congress, as they should, to limit his diplomatic running room. Mr. Trump may decide to court Mr. Putin anyway, like Barack Obama did Iran’s mullahs, but political isolation concerning a foreign adversary is a weak and dangerous place to be.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden are among those touted as serious Democratic presidential contenders in 2020, but three-out-of-four Democrats think their party needs to turn to someone new.A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 73% of Likely Democratic Voters believe their party should look for a fresh face to run for president in 2020. Just 16% disagree and think the party should promote a candidate who has already run in the past. Eleven percent (11%) are undecided.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

President Trump said today that he meant the opposite when he said during his summit with Russian leader Vladimir Putin that he doesn't see why Russia would have interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

Speaking at the White House, the president said he meant he doesn't see why Russia “wouldn't” be responsible. He also said he accepts the U.S. intelligence community's assessment that Russia interfered in the election, but he denied that his campaign had colluded in the effort.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I've yet to see an attractive candidate floated by either party. Have you?

Let's agree to push candidates that are not on the fringe of their party, and can we rid ourselves of candidates who have a pattern of being a sexual predator - either an actual predator (Trump, Clinton) or someone who has enabled it (HRC). Finally, someone that has some meaningful experience outside a lifetime of feeding from the public trough would be nice. Maybe a Governor that has met a budget building a business at some point in his life. Anyway.....that's what I'm looking for -- a political Easter Bunny.

I want a Romney do-over.

“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

I'm relieved the debacle with Putin got wide coverage, and that Republicans seemed to find their voices, for a day, at least. For an awakened public, this should give Mueller more room to do his job.

However deep Mueller's trail goes will only be confirmational, and it becomes secondary if the Intel data goes all the way to Trump - he played the role of traitor as well as it could have been done, and the underlying truth is being exposed not by Mueller or Adam Schiff, but by the President himself.

If it's true that John Kelly urged Republicans to speak out, then good on him. Even Orrin Hatch now supports legislation curbing the idiotic tariff games.

I'm relieved the debacle with Putin got wide coverage, and that Republicans seemed to find their voices, for a day, at least. For an awakened public, this should give Mueller more room to do his job.

However deep Mueller's trail goes will only be confirmational, and it becomes secondary if the Intel data goes all the way to Trump - he played the role of traitor as well as it could have been done, and the underlying truth is being exposed not by Mueller or Adam Schiff, but by the President himself.

If it's true that John Kelly urged Republicans to speak out, then good on him. Even Orrin Hatch now supports legislation curbing the idiotic tariff games.

I think we elected a man with a personality disorder as POTUS, but I don't believe he's a traitor. We'll see what the evidence shows. If he is a traitor, then it's the biggest political scandal in U.S. history. If it turns out that he is just a boor who lacks character, and all the efforts to connect him to illegal activity with Russia become the most cynical political sideshow in U.S. history.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I think we elected a man with a personality disorder as POTUS, but I don't believe he's a traitor.

Who cares? He doesn't belong in office. If this helps remove him from office, it's a good thing. For that alone, it's not a cynical sideshow - people working to get him out are doing the nation a favor.

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Originally Posted by sancho

Who cares? He doesn't belong in office. If this helps remove him from office, it's a good thing. For that alone, it's not a cynical sideshow - people working to get him out are doing the nation a favor.

He got elected. Just for purposes of discussion, assume he was elected legitimately. (We can all be dismayed at that fact; I certainly am.) Also assume that despite his irritating admiration of Putin, Trump did nothing wrong. Assume the Steele dossier really is, as all the evidence shows, just opposition research paid for by the Clinton campaign, and is full of false information. Assume that a FEW fools in the FBI thought there was no real chance Trump would win, so they violated FBI rules to tip the scales in Clinton’s favor to make sure. Assume the left-leaning and Trump-hating news media took that narrative and ran with it relentlessly for many months. Finally, assume that Mueller comes up with nothing implicating Trump or his team in any collusion in Russian meddling in the election. (That’s what Mueller is investigating. The indictments and guilty pleas so far have nothing to do with that.)

That’s what I mean by cynical. Painting a guy who won the election, whom you hate, as a Russian tool, when you know the evidence is flimsy. And you’re doing this to invalidate a legitimate presidential election. It’s right out of an Alan Drury novel from the 1950s. Maybe that’s not what happened, we’ll see. If it is, I can’t think of anything more cynical.

Last edited by LA Ute; 07-18-2018 at 09:31 AM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

He got elected. Just for purposes of discussion, assume he was elected legitimately.

Fine. It's true - he was elected. It was a joke taken too far, but he was elected. I suppose using whatever means necessary to get rid of him changes the rules for the future. But it would be so nice not to have him anymore.

Anyway, I imagine the people involved in the investigations believe they have something legitimate. If they don't, it is cynical, as you say. I guess it wouldn't be too surprising - politics runs on cynicism and dishonesty.

Assume the Steele dossier really is, as all the evidence shows, just opposition research paid for by the Clinton campaign, and is full of false information. Assume that a FEW fools in the FBI thought there was no real chance Trump would win, so they violated FBI rules to tip the scales in Clinton’s favor to make sure. Assume the left-leaning and Trump-hating news media took that narrative and ran with it relentlessly for many months. Finally, assume that Mueller comes up with nothing implicating Trump or his team in any collusion in Russian meddling in the election. (That’s what Mueller is investigating. The indictments and guilty pleas so far have nothing to do with that.)

That’s what I mean by cynical. Painting a guy who won the election, whom you hate, as a Russian tool, when you know the evidence is flimsy. And you’re doing this to invalidate a legitimate presidential election. It’s right out of an Alan Drury novel from the 1950s. Maybe that’s not what happened, we’ll see. If it is, I can’t think of anything more cynical.

Just making a point. The possibility that even some of them are true should be disturbing to everyone. And none of the assumptions is outlandish. I am no Trump fan. as you know, but I am a fan of trying to be level-headed about big scandals. I thought the Monica Lewinsky/Whitewater thing was ridiculous, excessive, and hurt the country. That episode, along with the Lawrence Walsh episode, convinced me that the old independent counsel law was a bad idea and was extra-constitutional. Even the new approach (Mueller, e.g.) rubs me the wrong way. My client work has made me pretty wary of federal prosecutors.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I live in the South, in an unincorporated part of the South, 15 minutes from a medium sized city. There are a lot of Trump supporters that are my neighbors, ward members, and many many in the branches and remote wards in our stake. At work, there are maybe 5-ish Trump voters that I work with with any regularity.

I sometimes worry about what would happen if 'their guy' was thrown out of office. They really do tend to see themselves as un-represented. Blue collar, an increasingly automated economy that doesn't bode well for their future, etc, etc. They're are struggling, and all the focus is on the social-justice warrior type things. They LOVE to see CNN/MSNBC, the democrats/etc get flustered when Trump says something. It's like their guy is punching the establishment in the nuts, and they love it. The hoity-toity atheists in Europe freak out, and they love it.

I'm with everyone that he is by far the least qualified person to ever be president. And I wish he'd be removed.
However, I wonder about the backlash if he was removed. It could get ugly.
Part of me wonders if the best solution is to just hold our noses until 2020, and hope turnout is high.

I live in the South, in an unincorporated part of the South, 15 minutes from a medium sized city. There are a lot of Trump supporters that are my neighbors, ward members, and many many in the branches and remote wards in our stake. At work, there are maybe 5-ish Trump voters that I work with with any regularity.

I sometimes worry about what would happen if 'their guy' was thrown out of office. They really do tend to see themselves as un-represented. Blue collar, an increasingly automated economy that doesn't bode well for their future, etc, etc. They're are struggling, and all the focus is on the social-justice warrior type things. They LOVE to see CNN/MSNBC, the democrats/etc get flustered when Trump says something. It's like their guy is punching the establishment in the nuts, and they love it. The hoity-toity atheists in Europe freak out, and they love it.

I'm with everyone that he is by far the least qualified person to ever be president. And I wish he'd be removed.
However, I wonder about the backlash if he was removed. It could get ugly.
Part of me wonders if the best solution is to just hold our noses until 2020, and hope turnout is high.

For the reasons you state, I'm afraid millions of people would see Trump's removal as a coup d'etat. I am not at all sure it would be a bloodless coup.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I live in the South, in an unincorporated part of the South, 15 minutes from a medium sized city. There are a lot of Trump supporters that are my neighbors, ward members, and many many in the branches and remote wards in our stake. At work, there are maybe 5-ish Trump voters that I work with with any regularity.

I sometimes worry about what would happen if 'their guy' was thrown out of office. They really do tend to see themselves as un-represented. Blue collar, an increasingly automated economy that doesn't bode well for their future, etc, etc. They're are struggling, and all the focus is on the social-justice warrior type things. They LOVE to see CNN/MSNBC, the democrats/etc get flustered when Trump says something. It's like their guy is punching the establishment in the nuts, and they love it. The hoity-toity atheists in Europe freak out, and they love it.

I'm with everyone that he is by far the least qualified person to ever be president. And I wish he'd be removed.
However, I wonder about the backlash if he was removed. It could get ugly.
Part of me wonders if the best solution is to just hold our noses until 2020, and hope turnout is high.

This is the real issue - how did we get to the early 2016 GOP primaries with so many who were out for blood? It's a very long, complex story, but regardless of what happens with Trump - whether he somehow takes rationality pills or is impeached or keels over due to a tantrum - we will have this issue to deal with, how to cobble together some shred of common interest to try and keep the nation from erupting.

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

This is the real issue - how did we get to the early 2016 GOP primaries with so many who were out for blood? It's a very long, complex story, but regardless of what happens with Trump - whether he somehow takes rationality pills or is impeached or keels over due to a tantrum - we will have this issue to deal with, how to cobble together some shred of common interest to try and keep the nation from erupting.

A big part of it was that there were 15 other candidates who drew support from mainstream Republicans. Trump drew from some mainstream Repubs but also from people who hadn’t been involved, including but not exclusively the alt-right. The other 15 divided up the normal vote and Trump’s base was remarkably loyal. He kept winning and eventually the opposition wasted away. That’s not the whole story but as a Rubio supporter (and fundraiser) I did watch that part unfold.

Last edited by LA Ute; 07-18-2018 at 11:45 PM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

A big part of it was that there were 15 other candidates who drew support from mainstream Republicans. Trump drew from some mainstream Repubs but also from people who hadn’t been involved, including but not exclusively the alt-right. The other 15 divided up the normal vote and Trump’s base was remarkably loyal. He kept winning and eventually the opposition wasted away. That’s not the whole story but as a Rubio supporter (and fundraiser) I did watch that part unfold.

Good take on what happened. A lot of angry voters comprised (and still comprise) Trump's base. "Drain the swamp", "lock her up!", etc.

Similarly, many young folks - eg, 10,000 showing up to see Bernie at This is the Place State Park - manifesting a similar uprising on the left.

I could list 20 factors I think were ingredients to these separate but similar uprisings, but I think those are what we need to understand and address, or at least try to ameliorate.

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Annnnd...here’s another point of view that I don’t buy, but I must cop to a slight feeling of nervousness. Then again, Trump always makes me nervous. It’s who he is, it’s what he does. There is something real about Trump Derangement Syndrome, but he seems to feed on that. Obama and Bush simply ignored their critics’ respective derangement syndromes. Not Trump. He loves it.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”