Should both stack or do you get bonus twice for the same source - expensive clothes?

So you might get up to +6 on diplomacy with this combination - +3 class, +1trait, +2 MW tools

Feedback to RAW and RAI welcome - but please keep it civil and accept opinions of others even if you disagree.

Extremly fashionable
You really know how to make a good impression when you’re dressed well.
Benefit: Whenever you are wearing clothing and/or jewelry worth at least 150 gp (and not otherwise covered in gore, sewage, or other things that mar your overall look), you gain a +1 trait bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. One of these skills (Diplomacy) is a class skill for you.

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

From a RAW standpoint, they're two different bonuses, so they stack.

From a logic standpoint, it works as well. Say both Schlub the Fighter and Spiffy the Bard get dressed in their best (masterwork) clothes for the Duke's ball. The clothes generate a favorable (+2) impression for both of them. However, Spiffy's sense of style and bearing (Extremely Fashionable) allows him to make an even better (+1)impression. He just wears the clothes better.

I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Look up masterwork tool. Apply that rule to masterwork clothes. Done.

One of my characters is wearing shady sunglasses for a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff. :D

I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Look up masterwork tool. Apply that rule to masterwork clothes. Done.

One of my characters is wearing shady sunglasses for a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff. :D

He's actually a dhampir (I got the boon ages ago), so I reasoned he would want some shades anyway to keep out the bright light. That doesn't actually reduced the dazzled penalty for bright light, but it makes him feel better, and his eyes are hidden so it's easier for him to lie and play poker.

I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Look up masterwork tool. Apply that rule to masterwork clothes. Done.

One of my characters is wearing shady sunglasses for a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff. :D

And as I said, it is a house-rule, because it is not explicit in the rules. There is nothing wrong with house-rules, but in the Rules Questions section of the messageboards it is appropriate to distinguish between house rules and Rules As Written.

Actually, a tool is listed in the "tools and skill sets" section of the equipment chapter. Clothing is listed in its own section, and is thus not a tool. They did not list every possible masterwork tool, but they did define what a tool is.

House rules are anything which is not explicit in the rules, and it is not explicit in the rules that clothing is considered a tool. This does not mean that it is not a cool house rule, but it is a house rule.

A masterwork tool is an "insert fluff here" item. Unless it is one of the clearly defined tools, like thieves tools, it is up to the DM to decide what it is. Saying a masterwork tool(diplomacy) is a set of clothes, is not a houserule. It is just a way to explain the unexplained.

I have a character who's picked up a few different "tools" and I'd hate to think I was cheating the DM.

ex: faceblack for stealth, jewellery for diplomacy, etc..

edit: disregard the above then. >.<

So where is the "tool" definition?

edit2: and would a masterwork surgeon's tool give you a +3 or a +5? (since standard is +3 circumstance bonus)?

You are not "cheating" your GM by using an item which he has ruled can be used in the way you are using it. Rule 0 is that whatever the GM says are the rules are the rules.

The definition is that items which are tools are found in the tools section. Items which are not tools are found in other sections.

I find no entry in any rulebook for "surgeon's tools". Such a tool would also be a house rule. Most tools do not give a bonus if they are not masterwork, they just allow one to use their related skill without a penalty (such as the -2 penalty to disable device for using improvised tools), the two exceptions I see are Alchemist's lab and magnifying glass, both of which don't list a masterwork version. If your GM rules that surgeon's tools exist, and they give you a +3 bonus (I assume on heal checks), and he rules that masterwork would give an additional +2, then that is how it works for his game. All of this is house-rules, as they are not explicit in the rulebook.

Keep in mind that the Extremely Fashionable trait specifies that the clothing must cost 150 gp or more. The generic masterwork tool costs only 50 gp. I suppose you could buy three separate tools (masterwork slacks, masterwork shirt, masterwork cravat?) to get up to the 150 gp mark, but the tool bonuses wouldn't stack. The only clothing worth that much in the rules is the "Royal Outfit" worth 200 gp.

RAW actually no clothes at all classify as MW tools as MW tools have a weight of 1 lb and none of the clothes has the same weight.

You could argue that they are made out of finer cloth - say half weight - that would give you MW Monk's Outfit or MW Peasant Outfit.

I just wanted to throw this in for all who love to argue RAW. If you argue RAW please go all the way. And no - as GM I wouldn't rule out the bonus due to impossible weight but I thought I throw this in here as arguing RAW can be a dangerous beast.

Yes - the bowtie and jewelry probably could be crafted in a way to fulfill RAW.

But more sirious again

That leaves the 'if any' clause. You already get a bonus thanks to your clothes - would you get it a second time under these circumstances or would it fall under 'none in these circumstances' as 'if any' is unfortunately none.

Related to this is - circumstance bonuses are what they are - dependent on circumstances. In which cases do clothes work and when is a GM justified to rule they don't.

Talking to a naked nymph in the woods - I doubt she is impressed by your shiny clothes. Having the latest style Taldoren noble outfit - don't try using this outfit in Cheliax.

If they were made as a masterwork set, the +2 for being *masterwork* and then the +3 for being *surgeon's tools* would then stack as +5 (3 for the type of tools, 2 for being exceptionally well crafted.)

It's NOT a houserule. It's covered in the equipment section. They just didn't add a comprehensive list of every single possible masterwork tool for every skill.

I would think that a rule that is written in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is certainly a 'Rule as Written'.

Clothes are not in the category of skill tools.

Clothes don't add to diplomacy rolls.

They can however SUBTRACT from them, such as the Noble who makes the mistake of going to two consecutive parties in the same. Or the PC who tries to pass himself off as a courtier by wearing the clothes without the expensive jewelry to complement it.

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

From a RAW standpoint, they're two different bonuses, so they stack.

From a logic standpoint, it works as well. Say both Schlub the Fighter and Spiffy the Bard get dressed in their best (masterwork) clothes for the Duke's ball. The clothes generate a favorable (+2) impression for both of them. However, Spiffy's sense of style and bearing (Extremely Fashionable) allows him to make an even better (+1)impression. He just wears the clothes better.

I'd say from a RAW standpoint the added expense to the clothing is a prerequisite to use of the trait.

"Extremly fashionable
You really know how to make a good impression when you’re dressed well.
Benefit: Whenever you are wearing clothing and/or jewelry worth at least 150 gp (and not otherwise covered in gore, sewage, or other things that mar your overall look), you gain a +1 trait bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. One of these skills (Diplomacy) is a class skill for you."

Adding MW Quality to clothing does seem like a way to artificially inflate the cost of clothing, but it is technically equipment and since the optional trait does make clothing a "tool" for use with a skill the MW Tool should apply. So while there is nothing in RAW that specifically says "You can add MW to clothes" I think it fits very well with the spirit of the RAW.

However, I would argue that they should not stack because the cost of the clothes is DIRECTLY the reason how the Trait works. For that reason I would think that since it is the trait that makes use of clothes as a tool, simply MW clothes would have no effect.

(Last edit I swear)
And according to the "Pathfinder Society Feats & Traits List" the Adventurer's Armory Trait "Extremely Fashionable" is an Equipment related trait, so clothes ARE equipment... so sayeth the Decemvirate

They can however SUBTRACT from them, such as the Noble who makes the mistake of going to two consecutive parties in the same. Or the PC who tries to pass himself off as a courtier by wearing the clothes without the expensive jewelry to complement it.

So you can penalize your PCs for not wearing proper attire, but you can't give them an equipment bonus for spending some extra money on the clothes?

It doesn't state what the item isn't, only that it must be "well made," "perfect for the job," and cost 50gp. It could be a hunk of cheese, a potted plant, or a pair of shoes. As long as it fits those three requirements.

There are MW weapons. Table 6-4.
There are MW armors. Table 6-6.
There are MW adventuring gear that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9.
There are MW tools that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9

The Courtier's Outfit: This outfit includes fancy, tailored clothes in whatever fashion happens to be the current style in the courts of the nobles. Anyone trying to influence nobles or courtiers while wearing street dress will have a hard time of it (-2 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals). If you wear this outfit without jewelry (costing an additional 50 gp), you look like an out-of-place commoner. Cost 30 gp, weighs 6 pounds.

All characters begin play with one outfit, valued at 10 gp or less.

So to avoid a -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. You need to get cleaned up, and spend 80 gp on clothes and jewelry, just to make a normal skill check vs anyone in the Upper Class.

Just like normal thieves' tools.

So MW thieves' tools would equal...(they weigh 2 pounds)

A Noble's Outfit, which cost 75 gp plus 100 gp worth of jewelry, that should give you a +2 circumstance bonus on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals.(IMO) Weighs 10 pounds.

These outfits should also be only good for 10 uses. (Must be kept clean & fresh, no stains or tears.)

This would only work on the Upper Class, don't know about Middle Class or Lower Class or other races.

Also Artisan's outfit, Entertainer's outfit, Monk's outfit, and Peasant's outfit all weigh less that 1 pound (for a small character).

I would say not quite RAW, but definately RAI.

For a constant +2 circumstance buff you'd need a complete wardrobe to cover every Circumstance.

So you think a Bower should have multiple MW tools depending on what part or type of bow/arrow he is working on? How about a weaponsmith? shouldn't he have different sized hammers, tongs, etc for different types of weapons? Should your resident arcane knowledge expert be forced to carry an entire library for every different situation/challenge that could possibly come up or be penalized?

If your DM OKs an item for the MW +2 bonus to a skill, it should be generally considered that it will work for that skill. Yes, there are exceptions, but in general, your MW tool gives you a +2 to a skill, period.

Quantum Steve wrote:

The definition of a Masterwork Tool is intentionally extremely broad.

It doesn't state what the item isn't, only that it must be "well made," "perfect for the job," and cost 50gp. It could be a hunk of cheese, a potted plant, or a pair of shoes. As long as it fits those three requirements.

They can however SUBTRACT from them, such as the Noble who makes the mistake of going to two consecutive parties in the same. Or the PC who tries to pass himself off as a courtier by wearing the clothes without the expensive jewelry to complement it.

So you can penalize your PCs for not wearing proper attire, but you can't give them an equipment bonus for spending some extra money on the clothes?

That's not extra money, that's required and basic equipment for the political field. There's also no need for the bonus considering that PC's who get into the social field can get more than the Diplomacy bonus than they need anyway.

There are MW armors. Table 6-6.
There are MW adventuring gear that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9.
There are MW tools that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9

The Courtier's Outfit: This outfit includes fancy, tailored clothes in whatever fashion happens to be the current style in the courts of the nobles. Anyone trying to influence nobles or courtiers while wearing street dress will have a hard time of it (-2 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals). If you wear this outfit without jewelry (costing an additional 50 gp), you look like an out-of-place commoner. Cost 30 gp, weighs 6 pounds.

All characters begin play with one outfit, valued at 10 gp or less.

So to avoid a -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. You need to get cleaned up, and spend 80 gp on clothes and jewelry, just to make a normal skill check vs anyone in the Upper Class.

Just like normal thieves' tools.

So MW thieves' tools would equal...(they weigh 2 pounds)

A Noble's Outfit, which cost 75 gp plus 100 gp worth of jewelry, that should give you a +2 circumstance bonus on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals.(IMO) Weighs 10 pounds.

These outfits should also be only good for 10 uses. (Must be kept clean & fresh, no stains or tears.)

This would only work on the Upper Class, don't know about Middle Class or Lower Class or other races.

Also Artisan's outfit, Entertainer's outfit, Monk's outfit, and Peasant's outfit all weigh less that 1 pound (for a small character).

I would say not quite RAW, but definately RAI.

For a constant +2 circumstance buff you'd need a complete wardrobe to cover every Circumstance.

Actually, you just need to write "mwk tool (Diplomacy): 50gp" on your character sheet.

So, the fluff is the problem, as there is not enough to satisfy everyone. The item is fine, and if you don't like someone else using fluff that you are uncomfortable with, don't use it. There are no rules broken here, it is not houserules, it is just fluff you are uncomfortable with.
OP: Different bonuses, so they stack.

And if it is just the fluff that's bothering people, all you have to do is ignore the fluff and say "Welp, this is indeed the perfect Diplomacy tool. It is indeed the perfect tool for the job of Diplomacy. I can't imagine how I ever successfully Diplomatized without this perfectly made Diplomacy tool."

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

They don't exist because clothes are not tools, weapons, or armor.

There are such things as Expensive clothes but they give no bonuses in high class social settings because they are minimal requirements to operate on par in those environments and provide no bonus otherwise.

Perfume and cologne are common accessories for those who hope to avoid offending through scent. More expensive scents are available in finer quarters of any city. Exotic scents are sold in vials containing 10 applications, with a single dose lasting for 24 hours during which its wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on all Diplomacy checks (save for those against creatures who, at the GM’s discretion, would not be swayed by scent).

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

They don't exist because clothes are not tools, weapons, or armor.

There are such things as Expensive clothes but they give no bonuses in high class social settings because they are minimal requirements to operate on par in those environments and provide no bonus otherwise.