Hmm... super busy here - will try to post that pick soon and highlights of my convo with MaryPat from livefree/curly -

But today I got very uncreative and used Rehab as a LI

I think I'm getting Oc'd - between the smoothing yesterday and the Rehab today as LIs, my hair is starting to get a little "mushy" -

I'm really still afraid to use protein but maybe I should either back off moisture or add protein?

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

I used a protein treatment recommended by Triple_spiral, and used Jas's technique for PT/DT. it worked quite well - (and my hair hates protein on a daily basis...) I used Greek yogourt (about 3 tbs) mixed with honey and mayonnaise, as well as EVOO and coconut oil. I clarified my hair with baking soda followed by an ACV rinse, then put the PT in my hair. I wrapped my hair in a soft cotton dishcloth and then topped that with shower cap. Left in 15 mins, then rinsed it out and followed it up with a coconut oil DT. Then 'poo'ed and condished as usual. Worked a treat - seems my hair personally doesn't mind protein, especially of the milk and egg kind, as long as it is mixed with a hefty dose of oil too it perked my curls up and left my hair soft. Even if your hair is iffy with protein, you do occasionally need some, as I have discovered!

All right, so this is where my hair (OR SOMETHING) starts getting insane - you can see from this thread, I had some really great hair days - then after the smoothing lotion things went down hill - tried the Rehab as a LI and got bad - thought I was OC'd

This is THE FIRST TIME i've used ANY protein in months (Scary) and I tried Nature's Gate Jojoba conditioner that has hydrolized soy and hydrolized vegetable protein but not wheat directly - felt good on my hair - slip, etc. as a condish, and then left it in with AOMM (since I'm doing everything else the same just changing out my LI, and now I have that BRITTLE DRY TANGLE

So is it the TYPE of protein or ... I can't have any protein? this is where I start to get really confused.

Sorry for all the caps, but I'm FRUSTRATED! - too!

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

From what I've seen in various posts, keratin and silk seem to be the two most agreeable proteins for people who tend to be otherwise protein sensitive- you might want to try one of those. It definitely sounds like you do have some protein sensitivity- make sure to use some heavy-duty moisture to help your hair recover.

All right, so this is where my hair (OR SOMETHING) starts getting insane - you can see from this thread, I had some really great hair days - then after the smoothing lotion things went down hill - tried the Rehab as a LI and got bad - thought I was OC'd

This is THE FIRST TIME i've used ANY protein in months (Scary) and I tried Nature's Gate Jojoba conditioner that has hydrolized soy and hydrolized vegetable protein but not wheat directly - felt good on my hair - slip, etc. as a condish, and then left it in with AOMM (since I'm doing everything else the same just changing out my LI, and now I have that BRITTLE DRY TANGLE

So is it the TYPE of protein or ... I can't have any protein? this is where I start to get really confused.

Sorry for all the caps, but I'm FRUSTRATED! - too!

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

I am not a scientist and all I can do is tell you what worked for me, sadly - and I am hoping the *really* experienced curlies will come in here and help you But I remember reading here that those who had problems with protein seemed to react the worst to soy, wheat, oat, with the second round of offenders being aloe, silk protein, jojoba, avocado...and sometimes coconut ;p I am afraid you may have to just keep experimenting...or, follow up on your protein treatments *immediately* with a deep moisture conditioner. That seemed to work well for me after using the yogourt, and I have seen many here advise to ALWAYS follow the protein treatment, whichever one you use, with moisturizing products...maybe you can try reconditioning your hair with a moisture only product? Hth....

From what I've seen in various posts, keratin and silk seem to be the two most agreeable proteins for people who tend to be otherwise protein sensitive- you might want to try one of those. It definitely sounds like you do have some protein sensitivity- make sure to use some heavy-duty moisture to help your hair recover.

Originally Posted by Corrina777

Corrina, the thing that led me to use some protein was that i thought was getting OC'd - so do you still think I need to bring in tons of moisture?

Also, do you happen to know a LI with just keratin or silk?

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

All right, so this is where my hair (OR SOMETHING) starts getting insane - you can see from this thread, I had some really great hair days - then after the smoothing lotion things went down hill - tried the Rehab as a LI and got bad - thought I was OC'd

This is THE FIRST TIME i've used ANY protein in months (Scary) and I tried Nature's Gate Jojoba conditioner that has hydrolized soy and hydrolized vegetable protein but not wheat directly - felt good on my hair - slip, etc. as a condish, and then left it in with AOMM (since I'm doing everything else the same just changing out my LI, and now I have that BRITTLE DRY TANGLE

So is it the TYPE of protein or ... I can't have any protein? this is where I start to get really confused.

Sorry for all the caps, but I'm FRUSTRATED! - too!

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

I am not a scientist and all I can do is tell you what worked for me, sadly - and I am hoping the *really* experienced curlies will come in here and help you But I remember reading here that those who had problems with protein seemed to react the worst to soy, wheat, oat, with the second round of offenders being aloe, silk protein, jojoba, avocado...and sometimes coconut ;p I am afraid you may have to just keep experimenting...or, follow up on your protein treatments *immediately* with a deep moisture conditioner. That seemed to work well for me after using the yogourt, and I have seen many here advise to ALWAYS follow the protein treatment, whichever one you use, with moisturizing products...maybe you can try reconditioning your hair with a moisture only product? Hth....

Originally Posted by Knotty_Maddy

I wanted to try your routine with the yogurt, etc, but I didn't have yogurt and didn't have time today.

So now should I do a curl rehab dt?

And start over? Just avoid protein and maybe do a PT with natural stuff - yogurt, egg, evoo?

Also, I think i am really PT sensitive - to most. Any ideas what protein I can use?

Do you think the homemade stuff won't make me react as bad?

Oh, and last question - what about PT in gels? I hear it doesn't penetrate so maybe it won't be bad? IDK!

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

All right, so this is where my hair (OR SOMETHING) starts getting insane - you can see from this thread, I had some really great hair days - then after the smoothing lotion things went down hill - tried the Rehab as a LI and got bad - thought I was OC'd

This is THE FIRST TIME i've used ANY protein in months (Scary) and I tried Nature's Gate Jojoba conditioner that has hydrolized soy and hydrolized vegetable protein but not wheat directly - felt good on my hair - slip, etc. as a condish, and then left it in with AOMM (since I'm doing everything else the same just changing out my LI, and now I have that BRITTLE DRY TANGLE

So is it the TYPE of protein or ... I can't have any protein? this is where I start to get really confused.

Sorry for all the caps, but I'm FRUSTRATED! - too!

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

I am not a scientist and all I can do is tell you what worked for me, sadly - and I am hoping the *really* experienced curlies will come in here and help you But I remember reading here that those who had problems with protein seemed to react the worst to soy, wheat, oat, with the second round of offenders being aloe, silk protein, jojoba, avocado...and sometimes coconut ;p I am afraid you may have to just keep experimenting...or, follow up on your protein treatments *immediately* with a deep moisture conditioner. That seemed to work well for me after using the yogourt, and I have seen many here advise to ALWAYS follow the protein treatment, whichever one you use, with moisturizing products...maybe you can try reconditioning your hair with a moisture only product? Hth....

Originally Posted by Knotty_Maddy

I wanted to try your routine with the yogurt, etc, but I didn't have yogurt and didn't have time today.

So now should I do a curl rehab dt?

And start over? Just avoid protein and maybe do a PT with natural stuff - yogurt, egg, evoo?

Also, I think i am really PT sensitive - to most. Any ideas what protein I can use?

Do you think the homemade stuff won't make me react as bad?

Oh, and last question - what about PT in gels? I hear it doesn't penetrate so maybe it won't be bad? IDK!

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

Moisture would still be the way to correct protein overload- the balance between the two is a challenge for many of us, even after a year of CG I still struggle with getting the right balance.

Protein sensitivities tend to be very individual. Some people can tolerate certain proteins but not others. Some people tolerate protein only in certain circumstances- some can only do PTs and can't tolerate products, while others can use protein in products but can't tolerate a full DT.

As far as products, I can give some ideas, but you would have to verify the ingredients to see if there are additional proteins listed (I'm not really used to looking at proteins with that much detail because my hair has such a strong like of proteins). Keep in mind that regular conditioners can also be used as leave-ins. Mill Creek Botanicals and Renpure Organics both have Keratin conditioners- I'm not sure if there are additional proteins in them or not. Curly Hair Solutions has a conditioner called Pure Silk Protein, CHI makes LI sprays- there's a keratin spray and the one for curly hair uses silk amino acids. If I think of any others I'll add them.

Last night, I left coconut oil on my ends and then this morning I did the usual co-wash, biolage Condish and RO, and then I did a DT with Rehab and used As I am as a LI, since that was my favorite with AOMM -

I will see what I get today. My hair is feeling better so far, but I'm realizing that I think I can handle PT just not protein in my LI or condish (in condish, it doesn't give me good slip) and in LI (unless there's a certain type I'm okay with - it gets brittle, dry and tangled.

I wonder if when my hair seems to be getting OC'd I try a PT and RO and maybe that would help?

In the past, I've been totally okay with color and that depositing protein - so IDK - in fact, that always seemed to make my hair lovely-

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

Last night, I left coconut oil on my ends and then this morning I did the usual co-wash, biolage Condish and RO, and then I did a DT with Rehab and used As I am as a LI, since that was my favorite with AOMM -

I will see what I get today. My hair is feeling better so far, but I'm realizing that I think I can handle PT just not protein in my LI or condish (in condish, it doesn't give me good slip) and in LI (unless there's a certain type I'm okay with - it gets brittle, dry and tangled.

I wonder if when my hair seems to be getting OC'd I try a PT and RO and maybe that would help?

In the past, I've been totally okay with color and that depositing protein - so IDK - in fact, that always seemed to make my hair lovely-

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

Corrina is giving you really good advice

The thing about using the yogourt for protein is it might not bother your hair as much as the soy, wheat, etc proteins. But everyone is different! I think Corrina was right, just lay off the protein for a while, and condition as much as possible...Maybe give the protein treatment a miss then, and just do a deep treatment...?

what I would do, is after a few weeks, start with one protein at a time, experimenting to see which one it is that makes your hair unhappy...

If you need a gel with no protein, maybe try Aussie Instant Freeze? It's cheap and you can find it on the ground, and it holds incredibly well! Makes a great gel cast too!

BTW, I believe hair changes and does not always require the same thing...I used to colour my hair ages and ages ago and my hair liked it, but I tried colouring it two months ago after all this time, and it wrecked me hair! ;p so what was ok at one time is no longer ok...

Depending on the temps/humidity/dews, you might also want to check your products for glycerin- in lower dew points glycerin can also cause major dryness and tangles. I just thought about this because we were discussing KY jelly on another thread and my hair seemed to tangle a lot when I used it (but I was also overdue for a trim, so it could have just been my scraggly ends).

There are so many variables, I know it can be really overwhelming- trust me, I've been there.

Thanks, Everyone, it's just so disappointing b/c I was doing so well and then all of a sudden one thing throws everything off and now even As I am didn't behave like it did the first time EVEN THOUGH I DID EVERYTHING THE SAME! - it was okay - better than all my other trials this past week - but the very back of my hair was still so fried.

So I put jojoba oil in my hair last night, and I don't even know what to try to today at this point! I will try a no-protein LI and Gel and look out for glycerin. Dew points today are 25.

Wah. I hate the fuzz-ball on my head.

I just can't see my way out of this. It's just trial error/endlessly seemingly.

And even when I try to "start over" (this happened last time) and go back to something that worked like a week ago, it doesn't work anymore!

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

Wow, you guys are good! So I wasn't really using glycerin with the AOMM or the As I am, but there is plenty of aloe and - oh, actually as I am has glycerin - so between the two there is glycerin, aloe, panthenol, and coconut.

Which is it? Hahahaha -

I tried then, same routine, this time used GVP condish balm rather than the brand name that I had been using (prob. same ingredients)?

And went back to KCKT - used lots - this time with a different gel - HE body envy.

So far - AMAZING - no dryness tangle or brittle whatsoever.

So what gives? Is it the humectants in low dues or is it a sensitivity to one of the above listed ingredients?

Thanks you all so much for helping me on this crazy hair journey!

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

Another question I have is how come I used to be fine with Curl Fix and Elucence Extended moisture repair - both super protein rich as PTs, but nothing remotely protein now? Is it b/c I rinsed those out?

Do PT-sensitive curlies have this - I guess I should ask in that forum - they can do PTs, but no LI protein?

3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate (don't ask me to pronounce that!)

Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!

Wow, you guys are good! So I wasn't really using glycerin with the AOMM or the As I am, but there is plenty of aloe and - oh, actually as I am has glycerin - so between the two there is glycerin, aloe, panthenol, and coconut.

Which is it? Hahahaha -

I tried then, same routine, this time used GVP condish balm rather than the brand name that I had been using (prob. same ingredients)?

And went back to KCKT - used lots - this time with a different gel - HE body envy.

So far - AMAZING - no dryness tangle or brittle whatsoever.

So what gives? Is it the humectants in low dues or is it a sensitivity to one of the above listed ingredients?

Thanks you all so much for helping me on this crazy hair journey!

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

GVP balm has no protein in it, and I think all four of the ingredients you mentioned could be the trigger for your issues...only you can determine that, sadly, via experimentation! Aloe has proteins in it and it does give some protein-sensitives a really hard time. Many cannot tolerate certain forms of cococnut - the milk of it has proteins, as does the meat part, but the oil contains NO protein. Some of us can't handle panthenol - it is a form of vitamin B, if I am not mistaken - but my hair doesn't like it, IDK about yours!

I am willing to bet the glycerin and the aloe were the issues ;p You will have to try using either straight glycerin or straight aloe in your hair, to see what happens...you kind of have to take the perspective of a researcher, lol!

In regard to your other question, I can only give you my experience - my hair enjoys protein treatments once a month or every two weeks, depending...so I can tolerate those, but only if they are natural (eggs, yogourt, honey, mayo). I can't tolerate any protein at all in any of my low-poos, condishes, LI's or gels ;p But we are all different, and as Corinna noted, some protein sensitives cannot tolerate it in LI products, and some can't tolerate the PT'S. And some can't handle either of those well.

When I dyed my hair 2 months ago, it was a totally horrid, puffy, frizzy mess :/ it took me weeks of moisturizing without protein to fix my hair. Now all my frizz is gone and my hair is behaving beautifully. Maybe you just aren't giving it enough time to recover! As in, a little patience goes a long way

Another question I have is how come I used to be fine with Curl Fix and Elucence Extended moisture repair - both super protein rich as PTs, but nothing remotely protein now? Is it b/c I rinsed those out?

Do PT-sensitive curlies have this - I guess I should ask in that forum - they can do PTs, but no LI protein?

Originally Posted by LilaGirl

You might just be having glycerin and/or aloe issues. If your hair is already dry from those, the protein will probably make it worse.

for straight aloe vera, you can buy the aloe vera gel at health food stores. Make sure there is only pure aloe vera gel as the only ingredient for trying out glycerin, I believe you can either buy pure vegetable glycerin from the drugstore, or you can try KY jelly (drugstore or Walmart).

When I am trying out new things, I pick one product and try it for a week, without changing anything else. That way I can pin down any issues I am having

I really think so far Corrinna has given you all the best advice - I am learning to just keep experimenting! lol! oh and, yup, my hair only likes the food proteins...whenever I try to use a store-bought PT, it freaks out ;p lol!