My wish: VW2020 to have no new features. Please.

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Originally this thread was titled 'My wish: VW2018 to have no new features. Please.'

Shortly after the release of VW2018 it was changed to: 'My wish: VW2019 to have no new features. Please.'

It is now changed to: 'My wish: VW2020 to have no new features. Please.'

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Instead, all resources should be put into making already-existing features work properly.

Doors, windows, stairs, structural members. I'm sure everyone can add their own things to this list. Anything else in the "known issues" list. Wishlist items that relate to existing features and which obviously are important to many users.

I don't actually care what new features are offered in VW2018. I won't really be interested in paying for them because I won't really trust that they'll work in practice, even in the SP2 and beyond versions. Much more valuable to me would be the ability to reliably use the tools that are supposedly there already, but which I don't use because either a bug or a crucial dysfunctionality means they aren't useful in real practice.

One of the best "features" of 2017 was the revamped resource browser. Something everyone has to use all the time but which was horrible to use. I actively avoided going near it and it discouraged me from trying all sorts of things. It's not now completely perfect but it's loads better and it changes the way I use VW. It wasn't a flashy new toy but its real world benefit is much higher than, say, the Structural Member tool which still doesn't seem to be usable.

I think this is a serious issue with VW. Please vote this up if you agree. I am worried that we'll get left behind as the rest of the world transitions into proper BIM, not because they've got fancier features but because they have software that works properly and reliably in its core functions - something VW does in 2D but not in the context of BIM/3D.

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We will always be working on a mix of improvements to existing features in addition to adding completely new features, there are no plans to move to tick-tock for development any time in the near future.

Some of these reasons are simply managerial policy, but the more technical reason is that it's also not possible for us to spend a version only working on existing features, as it would leave a large chunk of engineering with nothing to work on. Only one or two engineers can work on any given single feature at any given time (and many of those features need to be worked on by one or a specific group of specialized engineers, often large features needing the same specialists so they can't be worked on concurrently) piling more engineers onto the same task becomes too-many-cooks almost immediately and slows progress rather than speeding it up.

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We will always be working on a mix of improvements to existing features in addition to adding completely new features, there are no plans to move to tick-tock for development any time in the near future.

Yes, that's how it has always been since many many years and is quite common in industry.

But as line-weight wrote, note everybody, including me is so happy with VW's current state.

That means the quality, consistency and reliability of long time existing tools as well as

completely new features.

No one really wants to have no new features for real reasons. What many really want is to

get fixed their problems with VW. And obviously that doesn't go as fast as we would like

which makes us uncomfortable that we come to the idea that a feature stop could help.

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In order to fix any issues, we need specific and detailed threads and topics discussing those features. Generic threads like this with a general idea of "Fix Everything That is Broken" even if they are well-meaning are not useful for software development. The sentiment behind them is perfectly sound, but they will not lead to any useful progress.

Please continue to post specific issues in their own bug threads with details on how they do not meet current needs and how they should be improved.

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We will always be working on a mix of improvements to existing features in addition to adding completely new features, there are no plans to move to tick-tock for development any time in the near future.

Some of these reasons are simply managerial policy, but the more technical reason is that it's also not possible for us to spend a version only working on existing features, as it would leave a large chunk of engineering with nothing to work on. Only one or two engineers can work on any given single feature at any given time (and many of those features need to be worked on by one or a specific group of specialized engineers, often large features needing the same specialists so they can't be worked on concurrently) piling more engineers onto the same task becomes too-many-cooks almost immediately and slows progress rather than speeding it up.

Thanks JimW for your response and this is probably a good time to say that your responses on here, and the reassurance that they provide that soemone is listening, are one of the main reasons I haven't given up on Vectorworks so far. I don't know what proportion of users regularly consult the forums but you personally must be responsible for retaining a good chunk of customers who might otherwise have gone elsewhere. If any VW head honchos are reading this - I hope you appreciate how important JimW's role is.

It's not, of course, my place to try and advise any software developer on the details of how they go about their business and allocating tasks. It must be an extraordinarily complex process to keep a grip on and I appreciate that. All I can say is that from a user point of view, it feels like there are too many things pushed out with bugs, and too many things that just don't quite match how people actually need to use them. I think that those of us who regularly contribute here try and give some feedback on that latter point, but perhaps there needs to be a more formalised process within VW that pushes things to a set of people with knowledge of real-world use, for thorough testing, before they are released (in my case I'm talking mainly about architect-specific stuff). Maybe this already happens - all I can say is that from a user point of view it doesn't feel like it happens enough. As far as bugs are concerned: the same applies. I feel like a beta tester sometimes. I've had this thread in mind for a while now but it was prompted by recent experiences with the Structural Member tool. If I find bugs which render it unusable, within just a few hours of starting to use it, has it really been tested properly? I don't think so.

To re-emphasise, (to counter the essentially grumpy nature of this post/thread) everything you do in this forum (and I'm sure lots behind the scenes that we don't see) is hugely appreciated. On that front - please do keep up the good work, and thank you.

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perhaps there needs to be a more formalised process within VW that pushes things to a set of people with knowledge of real-world use, for thorough testing, before they are released (in my case I'm talking mainly about architect-specific stuff). Maybe this already happens - all I can say is that from a user point of view it doesn't feel like it happens enough. As far as bugs are concerned: the same applies. I feel like a beta tester sometimes. I've had this thread in mind for a while now but it was prompted by recent experiences with the Structural Member tool. If I find bugs which render it unusable, within just a few hours of starting to use it, has it really been tested properly?

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Something I've been tempted to do for a while, but haven't been motivate enough to find the time:

I think I could devise a "test" building, a notional building whose design would be calculated to reveal all the bits of VW that I think just don't work. I'd provide a full set of plans and elevations and sections and so on, and then set the people at the beating heart of VW development the challenge of modelling it in 3D and then generating an equivalent set of drawings from that model. Using the current release of VW.

Two things could happen:

- they successfully do it, and prove that it's my lack of knowledge/understanding that prevents me from doing it.

- they can't, or can only do so using workarounds that aren't documented for VW users as methods to achieve what they want. I win, but more constructively, perhaps it would help illustrate where the problems are.

I don't think it would have to be an outlandish design and it could be a very small building. It would simply incorporate some of the complexities of real buildings, and requirements for how they are documented in 2D output, that it feels like the developers don't understand.

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I think I could devise a "test" building, a notional building whose design would be calculated to reveal all the bits of VW that I think just don't work.

This would be incredibly useful and we would absolutely do as you suggest. Highlighting the pain points like those is sometimes hard for me personally as my background is more technical than process oriented.

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Thanks JimW for your response and this is probably a good time to say that your responses on here, and the reassurance that they provide that soemone is listening, are one of the main reasons I haven't given up on Vectorworks so far. I don't know what proportion of users regularly consult the forums but you personally must be responsible for retaining a good chunk of customers who might otherwise have gone elsewhere. If any VW head honchos are reading this - I hope you appreciate how important JimW's role is.

^^^^ This is certainly true for me. ^^^^

I would have considered switching to another software package years ago if it weren't for the increasing levels of candor and honesty from all Vw Employees on the forums, but especially from JimW.

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This would be incredibly useful and we would absolutely do as you suggest. Highlighting the pain points like those is sometimes hard for me personally as my background is more technical than process oriented.

Next time I've got a day with some real work that I *really* want to avoid getting on with, then....

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In order to fix any issues, we need specific and detailed threads and topics discussing those features. Generic threads like this with a general idea of "Fix Everything That is Broken" even if they are well-meaning are not useful for software development. The sentiment behind them is perfectly sound, but they will not lead to any useful progress.

Please continue to post specific issues in their own bug threads with details on how they do not meet current needs and how they should be improved.

I think the Vw wiki that @Christiaanalready has going over at Needle and Mortar is very detailed and specific about what Vw needs to fix / improve / add.

For example, take a look at this page for the 2015 list of enhancement requests for the Door Tool.

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In order to fix any issues, we need specific and detailed threads and topics discussing those features. Generic threads like this with a general idea of "Fix Everything That is Broken" even if they are well-meaning are not useful for software development. The sentiment behind them is perfectly sound, but they will not lead to any useful progress.

Please continue to post specific issues in their own bug threads with details on how they do not meet current needs and how they should be improved.

I am in full agreement of the intent behind this post and hope that all of this massive FORUM index serves as the basis for existing tools to get improved. The frustrating part is that posting specific requests seems to fall on deaf ears depending on when and where items are posted. I have made several posts that have gotten 0 views or minimal response, while others seem to get tons, regardless of subject matter.

As for improving existing tools, I agree that this should be a priority over the development of new tools. For example...text...maybe the most basic feature in the program. I feel like text handling alone is example enough of the frustrations with existing tools. No auto numbering, no auto bulletting, no support of multiple columns, no auto-indent. That is just the start. It seems as if a developer somewhere figured out how to code a text box and then said, done, on to how to draw a line.

I also agree with vetting tools before release. On this point, the irrigation tools. I was thrilled to learn about their release, but after using for one day, realized that I cannot practically make things work to develop a real irrigation plan, simply because you cannot graphically rotate components, tags, etc. To the point mentioned above, I have made several posts about these issues with almost 0 response, mainly because I don't know how interested the community is in irrigation.

Hope to see actual improvements in how development works with the reality of project development and documentation.

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Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that specific issue weren't being posted properly already, Needle and Mortar's list (which has existed and evolved as long as I've been paying attention) is a fantastic example of a community voice that came from the absence of a sense of being heard.

I can't guarantee that posts or topics here will gain traction, but it's still early in the existence of the new forums and the voting system, and new user registration is still strong and on the rise. I suspect a lot of this will be slow to get going but will become incredibly powerful.

Every single item that goes into the wishlist is now seen and reviewed, regardless of how many votes it gets. The tech required to link our internal tracking system and the forums is a large hurdle, so I doubt anything automated will be visible on the public end anytime soon, but the backend items (like a more thorough vetting of new and improved features) are improving rapidly, a large part of which will be announced relatively soon.

I know it can be frustrating, even I have wishlist items that have been on the books for years that haven't been implemented for very legitimate technical reasons. It can be irksome to have an idea for an amazing feature but not have anyone else buy into it for one reason or another, but the longer I keep at and the more specific and detailed I make the requests, the more frequently they are picked up. Huge chunks of Vectorworks 2018s feature list are direct results of conversations I've participated in with users on the board and this kind of improvement in communication shows no signs of slowing down, in fact there are already plans to speed it up.

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it strikes me that we all use VW for extraordinarily different purposes.

from structures to irrigation, floor plans to planting and or lighting and rigging plots.

its high time to give an ovation to the product that we use in our workflow. I don't hang line arrays from trusses, nor do I focus projectors nor worry about cubits of muck to skit away from site.

i do worry about beam lengths, hundredth of a millimetre accuracy, and record formats

on occasion i get jobs which require me to step out of the box, and the tools are awesome in their use.

the tools I use everyday is what I gripe about. Which in the strictest sense makes sense.

i would like to throw the floor open to the so called "power users" and have them display, video or webinar, their personal work flows.

as an individual, the reason I chose vw back in 2006 is because it had a bunch of "catch all" tools which lends themselves towards multiple applications. I got a lot of bang for my buck.

im annoyed that beta tools are rolled out.. but the world has changed into a "now now now" mentality. With me as a culprit also.

the fact which I've never mentioned is... I sit at a machine... I model and draw stuff for people.... I send an invoice... I get paid. Kids and mum are happy... step and repeat.

vectorworks, thank you. You're my medium and I make a living.

sorry I've given you stick, but criticism should be constructive, and I've learned from that.

beta tools need to be kept beta and away from production.

i did have an occasion or two, where it's hurt the pocket from the software failing, but it's only a tool, and It IS improving.

for me the 2017 release has been a turkey. a rotter of a release. But 2018 should be outstanding (remembering past release cycles)

trouble is... and it keeps coming back in my mind... I push VW around for 8 hours a day, and it pays my mortgage and feeds the kids.

although we've got software issues, we've still got a living.

please stop releasing massively overinflated, hyper produced videos of promise, pre release tools that will change the world, and make things solid and water tight. You'll get more clients. I watched solid works take over. (Anyone remember quark dying because indesign came in??)

the client base is extremely broad, so keeping everyone happy is impossible, but they are paying customers, so..... my clients wouldn't wait six months for something that worked....

jim w

is mr client-relation

standing in front of a firing squad just once is generally deadly.

but to turn up every day... is the stuff of legend

i will be renewing my VSS, although I've shouted F C & W very loudly in front of the kids at the screen.

i need to understand that VW doesn't know my personal and private niche. My requirements or desires. And as a one stop, draw all solution, it's pretty bloody good.

i build real buildings with real people in. I can't get away with a collapse and say it was only a beta version. Some of us really rely on VW being solid body armour. I cannot afford a single failure.

SO... out to the people (and if the web forum Devs can make it possible.) I'd like to do a stream, or video function available to everyone, so we can make our workflows public and show how we make a living. Talk through, walkthrough if you like.

the dev team are NOT mind readers. Let's show these folks how we earn a living and I think great things could happen.

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it strikes me that we all use VW for extraordinarily different purposes.

from structures to irrigation, floor plans to planting and or lighting and rigging plots.

its high time to give an ovation to the product that we use in our workflow. I don't hang line arrays from trusses, nor do I focus projectors nor worry about cubits of muck to skit away from site.

i do worry about beam lengths, hundredth of a millimetre accuracy, and record formats

on occasion i get jobs which require me to step out of the box, and the tools are awesome in their use.

the tools I use everyday is what I gripe about. Which in the strictest sense makes sense.

i would like to throw the floor open to the so called "power users" and have them display, video or webinar, their personal work flows.

as an individual, the reason I chose vw back in 2006 is because it had a bunch of "catch all" tools which lends themselves towards multiple applications. I got a lot of bang for my buck.

im annoyed that beta tools are rolled out.. but the world has changed into a "now now now" mentality. With me as a culprit also.

the fact which I've never mentioned is... I sit at a machine... I model and draw stuff for people.... I send an invoice... I get paid. Kids and mum are happy... step and repeat.

vectorworks, thank you. You're my medium and I make a living.

sorry I've given you stick, but criticism should be constructive, and I've learned from that.

beta tools need to be kept beta and away from production.

i did have an occasion or two, where it's hurt the pocket from the software failing, but it's only a tool, and It IS improving.

for me the 2017 release has been a turkey. a rotter of a release. But 2018 should be outstanding (remembering past release cycles)

trouble is... and it keeps coming back in my mind... I push VW around for 8 hours a day, and it pays my mortgage and feeds the kids.

although we've got software issues, we've still got a living.

please stop releasing massively overinflated, hyper produced videos of promise, pre release tools that will change the world, and make things solid and water tight. You'll get more clients. I watched solid works take over. (Anyone remember quark dying because indesign came in??)

the client base is extremely broad, so keeping everyone happy is impossible, but they are paying customers, so..... my clients wouldn't wait six months for something that worked....

jim w

is mr client-relation

standing in front of a firing squad just once is generally deadly.

but to turn up every day... is the stuff of legend

i will be renewing my VSS, although I've shouted F C & W very loudly in front of the kids at the screen.

i need to understand that VW doesn't know my personal and private niche. My requirements or desires. And as a one stop, draw all solution, it's pretty bloody good.

i build real buildings with real people in. I can't get away with a collapse and say it was only a beta version. Some of us really rely on VW being solid body armour. I cannot afford a single failure.

SO... out to the people (and if the web forum Devs can make it possible.) I'd like to do a stream, or video function available to everyone, so we can make our workflows public and show how we make a living. Talk through, walkthrough if you like.

the dev team are NOT mind readers. Let's show these folks how we earn a living and I think great things could happen.

all for, raise your hands....

Here endeth the lesson. (English idiom.)

I can't find much to disagree with here.

I'm not sure I'd call myself a "power user".

But if it was useful and relatively straightforward I would be happy to share my workflow. Perhaps not entirely publicly though, as I'd have to have regard for the confidentiality of my clients.

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Thing one: the comments about JimW are spot on. He is extremely helpful and is a great ambassador for VW.

I have been a user for over twenty years and always found MiniCad and VW to be a rock solid platform. I was very happy with my workflow and the speed at which I could turn out projects. I started noticing comments by friends who were users that led me to stay with VW2010 until I could no longer support it with my OS. So I upgraded to 2015 and the subscription service. It has been a very frustrating three years as I now feel like I spend almost as much time de-bugging the application as I do drawing and spitting out output. Most of the bugs I find I cannot replicate so that is not much help to developers.

The issue with the subscription platform is the developers feel the need to have some seriously shiny new features to make it worthwhile for users to continually shell out money for subscriptions. That is great for new feature additions and a seriously robust solution. It's not so great when said new features don't really work and frankly various features over the past several iterations fare no better.

So, I don't envision a scenario where we will see a cessation of creation of new features in favor of a focus on fixing the existing issues. We just need to keep posting things that are issues and support one another in bringing those issues to light.