Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Not possible.Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Not possible.Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Not possible.Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

Air independent propulsion need a big oxygen tank, and hydrogen tank, or diesel engine with same tricky exhaust condenser system.

Say if you modify the existing kilos then you can`t simply install the oxygen tank onto the place of the batteries, the oxigen tank must be as close as possible to spehrical .

list of problems>-Cetner of gravity will move. Dramaticaly, and to compensate it the internal distribution of masses has to be rearranged dramaticaly.I don`t know how it can be handled in a tightly packed submarine without rebuild the whole thing from small bits.-New section must be welded for LOX tank, hermeticaly separated from all other comparment.-The boat must be cutted into pieces.-New co2/h2o condesner system needs to be installed onto the place of the main generator/motor.

I don!t think that the above can be possible wihtout spending more money and time than to actualy make a new boat.

Actualy, the new ship can be considered as something that contain parts from a kilo submarine.

The above shortcuts can be compensated if say you make an AIP submarine that can last for few days only.But what is the point of the whole story in that case?

AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

GarryB wrote:AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

Having a big hydorgen tank on board is more than Dangerous ... I've seen a video where different AIP systems are showed but I can't found it. Stocking oxygen on board is the simpplest way but it's not an AIP system as it doesn't produce the oxygen. If I'm not wrong that's what chinese did for their subs.

GarryB wrote:AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

The oxider can be oxzgen ,fluor, chloride or hydrogen peroxide.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_agent

The most common is the liquid oxigen, compressed oxzgen or peroxide.

The only that can be considered is the liquid oxygen.

The reducer agent is less demanding if all that you want is to burn the fuel.If you use it in an internal combustion engine then the parameters more demanding, if in fuel cell the only material that you can consider is the hydrogen.

So, the diesel can be considered as fuel, but that burn to CO2 and H2O , and the Co2 has to be compressed to get evacuated from the sub.Not impossible , but increase the cost comlexity mass.

So, it still gives skeleton ratling, unless you use low power and special vibration separation.

The best is the H2, proton tranfer membaranes gives to us fuel cells.

But it needs liquid hydrogen.

So, the sub needs liquid oxygen, unless you are willing to store preoxyde, a lot of peroxyde actually.

Russia will present a submarine with the newest power plant at an exhibition in Brazil

MOSCOW, April 3 (Itar-Tass) - RIA Novosti. The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) at the LAAD-2017 international exhibition in Brazil will present to the delegates from Latin America the Amur-1650 submarine with an air-independent (anaerobic) power plant, the corporation's press service said on Monday.

The international Latin American exhibition of aviation and defense systems LAAD-2017 will be held from 4 to 7 April in Rio de Janeiro.

The main advantage of an air-independent power plant is an increase in the stealth of a submarine. The submarine can be underwater without ascent to recharge batteries for a longer period of time - up to two to three weeks.

"Specialists, experts and visitors of the exhibition can be especially attracted by the projects of the Amur-1650 submarine presented by TsKB MT" Rubin "in the form of mockups with an air-independent power plant and a diesel-electric submarine" Amur-950 ", as well as a lifeboat project For the rescue of crews of emergency submarines of project 21301, presented by "Admiralty Shipyards", "the release says.

As part of the USC delegation, which will be headed by Leonid Strugov, First Vice President of USC at LAAD-2017, specialists of the Admiralty Shipyards and Central Design Bureau of the MT Rubin will work.

"Within the framework of the exhibition, the members of the delegation of the Admiralty Shipyards and CDB MT Rubin plan to present the products of the enterprises to representatives of the national naval forces of the countries of the region and exchange views with potential partners on possible prospects for mutually beneficial cooperation," the press service noted.

The Latin American exhibition and conference on aerospace and defense technologies LAAD-2017 has been held in Rio de Janeiro since 1997, every two years, in close contact with the Ministry of Defense of Brazil. USC will first introduce the indicated naval equipment on a separate stand - two years ago the corporation was represented by delegate participation.

George1 wrote:Russia will present a submarine with the newest power plant at an exhibition in Brazil

MOSCOW, April 3 (Itar-Tass) - RIA Novosti. The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) at the LAAD-2017 international exhibition in Brazil will present to the delegates from Latin America the Amur-1650 submarine with an air-independent (anaerobic) power plant, the corporation's press service said on Monday.

The international Latin American exhibition of aviation and defense systems LAAD-2017 will be held from 4 to 7 April in Rio de Janeiro.

The main advantage of an air-independent power plant is an increase in the stealth of a submarine. The submarine can be underwater without ascent to recharge batteries for a longer period of time - up to two to three weeks.

"Specialists, experts and visitors of the exhibition can be especially attracted by the projects of the Amur-1650 submarine presented by TsKB MT" Rubin "in the form of mockups with an air-independent power plant and a diesel-electric submarine" Amur-950 ", as well as a lifeboat project For the rescue of crews of emergency submarines of project 21301, presented by "Admiralty Shipyards", "the release says.

As part of the USC delegation, which will be headed by Leonid Strugov, First Vice President of USC at LAAD-2017, specialists of the Admiralty Shipyards and Central Design Bureau of the MT Rubin will work.

"Within the framework of the exhibition, the members of the delegation of the Admiralty Shipyards and CDB MT Rubin plan to present the products of the enterprises to representatives of the national naval forces of the countries of the region and exchange views with potential partners on possible prospects for mutually beneficial cooperation," the press service noted.

The Latin American exhibition and conference on aerospace and defense technologies LAAD-2017 has been held in Rio de Janeiro since 1997, every two years, in close contact with the Ministry of Defense of Brazil. USC will first introduce the indicated naval equipment on a separate stand - two years ago the corporation was represented by delegate participation.

Nothing new. It's just a communication/marketing attempt to sell them. But unless russia order some of them or a country invest in their R&D (like for the pantsir) they won't be sold as it's an unproven design which even RuN didn't try.

Amur is the export name for the Lada class... three only of which will be built for the Russian Navy.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

GarryB wrote:Amur is the export name for the Lada class... three only of which will be built for the Russian Navy.

I know. But these three are not equiped with VLS. The first vessel is used for testing new equipements as it was not accepted by the navy because of the failed tests and the two others have been redesigned probably to be simiar to Kilo.

The first boat failed tests and revisions to the design were applied to the other two when they were on the slips.

All three will be taken into service so they must have corrected any problems, but it is pretty clear the new design Kalina sub took into account the design issues and fixes and have these applied organically to the base design.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

Submarines of the Lada project will be able to fire salvo missile fire at sea targets

Deputy Commander of the Russian Navy Viktor Bursuk added that other features of the submarine is the availability of a new sonar complex capable of detecting low-noise targets at long distances

MOSCOW, June 18. / TASS /. The non-nuclear submarines of Project 677 Lada will be able to conduct salvo missile firing at sea targets. This was announced by the Deputy Commander of the Russian Navy for Armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk.

"The distinctive features of the 677 submarine in comparison with the previous generation of submarines are the ability to carry out salvo missile firing at sea targets, improved characteristics of electronic weapons, the availability of an integrated automated control system of the ship, its combat, technical means and weapons," Bursuk said in an interview The newspaper "Red Star", which will be published on Monday.

According to him, other features of the Lada submarines are the availability of a new sonar complex capable of detecting low-noise targets at great distances, as well as the presence of pull-out devices that are not penetrating into the rugged body. In addition, the submarines of Project 677 have an anti-hydro-hull cover of a new generation hull, the Vice Admiral said.

Submarines of the "Lada" type belong to the fourth generation of non-nuclear submarines. The surface displacement of the submarines of this project is about 1.75 thousand tons (against 2.3 thousand tons for the "Varshavianok"), the underwater speed reaches 21 knots. Submarines of the new generation are characterized by a low level of noise and a high degree of automation. Their main armament is the cruise missiles of the complex "Caliber".

The Project 677 Lada-class lead diesel-electric submarine (SSK) B-585 Saint Petersburg has passed all the main types of tests and substantiated its design characteristics. Thus, favorable conditions have been created for the domestic industry to receive additional orders from Russia’s Ministry of Defense for ships of this type and conclude contracts for the export version, Amur 1650, under military-technical cooperation, the Zvezda TV channel reported.

Project 677 was developed under the supervision of Rubin’s General Designer Yuri Kormilitsyn. The primary mission for SSKs of this type is to search and destroy enemy submarines. Having implemented a lot of new technologies and advanced design solutions, the Rubin Central Design Bureau of Marine Engineering developed a unique ship. During its trials in the Baltic Sea and later (from mid-2013 to the present) at the Northern Fleet’s testing ranges, St. Petersburg demonstrated excellent "hunter" capabilities. In dueling situations with surface ships and submarines of other projects, the boat was the first to detect a simulated enemy. This gave its commander an opportunity to occupy an advantageous attack position and unexpectedly conduct a simulated launch.

The Russian Navy is expected to receive four ships in the original diesel-electric version, and then another five boats of an improved project fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.

Igor Vilnit, CEO of Rubin, says that the Project 677 SSK is currently the most advanced non-nuclear submarine capable of successfully competing with all existing German, French and Swedish submarines of this class. In practical terms, this statement refers primarily to the Project 75i international tender for six submarines for the Indian Navy, in which Rosoboronexport is promoting the Amur 1650. "All other tender bids are based on the ships of earlier projects and some of their improvements, whereas we are offering Indian partners to build their indigenous submarine on the basis of ours, which is most advanced today. And this is a very important point," says Vilnit.

The second involves the specific features of the future ship in the light of the Indian Navy’s mandatory requirement for it to be fitted with AIP. The bottom line is this: retrofitting diesel-electric submarines with AIP makes it possible to extend submerged endurance at low speeds (3-5 knots) by two or three times, which increases the stealth of submarines on the enemy’s sea lines of communication and near its coast. St. Petersburg does not have an AIP system, but, beginning with the fifth hull, all of the follow-on Project 677 boats will be equipped with a fuel-cell AIP system based on diesel fuel reforming.

Lada class Diesel Electric Submarine (SSK) Project 677

Rubin has made significant progress over the past few years developing an AIP system for submarines. First a technology demonstrator and then a shore-based test facility were built. The tests on it have been completely completed, and the Russian Navy’s requirements have been met. Preparations are underway for the next stage of tests. Details of the program are not disclosed for reasons of security. At the same time, the developers of the domestic AIP openly state that their installation has a number of significant advantages over its Western counterparts. "The operating principle of our AIP has been recognized the most appropriate across the world, since both our German and French colleagues switched to this type, but our design bureau started this work much earlier. We have an edge here, which will be embodied in an advanced project for the Indian Navy with the help and participation of Indian enterprises," the Rubin CEO said.

The victory in India is very important for bringing the new product to the world market. Foreign contracts, added to State Defense Order, will make it possible to quickly pay back the costs incurred for research and development work, increase the size of the production series and reduce the cost per unit. Many importing countries are interested in AIP submarines, but they want to get a ready-made, proven system. If Rosoboronexport succeeds in persuading our partners in military and technical cooperation in the advantages of domestic shipbuilders’ products, then Rubin, Admiralty Shipyard and its subcontractors can count on numerous contracts. This will allow them to remain in the market and continue developing the national school of underwater shipbuilding.

The Indian military are closely following all the latest achievements of Russian sailors and shipbuilders. They are especially interested in St. Petersburg, as this ship is proposed as a prototype in the tender for Project 75i. Igor Molchanov, Chief Designer of non-nuclear submarines at Rubin, explains: "We say that the Project 677 diesel-electric submarine is a prototype for the Amur 1650. I confirm that all the main tests of the lead ship have been completed. There remained only a small scope of inspections related to the sonar system." As is known, St. Petersburg is equipped with a prototype of the Lira sonar system developed by the Elektropribor Central Research Institute. In terms of performance, it is far superior to the series-built MGK-400 Rubicon-family sonar systems used in SSKs of previous Projects 636 and 877.

"Since a really unique sonar system is installed aboard St. Petersburg, all efforts are focused today on carrying out its comprehensive testing in completely different conditions," continues Molchanov. "The system is operable and has substantiated all its claimed characteristics. However, since hydrology is complex and changing, a large scope of work is done for a variety of hydrological conditions that may be encountered in the Oceans of the World. I emphasize that it’s not about functional demonstration of the sonar - because there is no longer any doubt about it. It’s about a set of certain statistics that will allow using this sonar system with a given effectiveness under completely different conditions."

It is the Lira, together with the small dimensions of the ship and extremely low-noise SED-1 main permanent-magnet motor (such a motor was used for the first time on the Russian submarine), that makes the Project 677 boat a "hunter" for foreign submarines. The 533mm torpedo tubes are adapted for firing the Kalibr strike cruise missiles as well. St. Petersburg conducted its first missile launches in the fall of 2016.

The submarine is capable of firing a salvo from all six tubes, while a quick loader enables the whole available weapon load (18 units) to be fired at the enemy in a matter of minutes. This makes the boat formidable for any enemy, including an aircraft carrier strike group. Among the missile versions, there are also the 3M-14 land-attack missiles, which were already used by the Project 636.3 SSK Rostov-on-Don and Krasnodar to destroy IS ground targets in Syria. Although the tests of the lead boat took a long time, their completion suggests that our Navy has got a lethal combatant unit, fully prepared for batch production, the Zvezda TV channel writes.

These have smaller crew than Kilos and other fancier stuff so it makes sense. I mean, crew size alone is worth it.

Plus they can install AIP during upgrade later unlike Kilos. Those subs are exquisite but they pretty much used up all upgrade potential.

Third Lada is supposed to get AIP if my memory serves me.

Apparently not, 2 current and 2 yet to be signed are to get diesel-electric. And 5th.. far into future might get AIP.

It seems like they are rather pushing Lada so they dont look like they wasted time and money on the project, because to be frank without AIP, it brings nothing thats worth of logistic nightmare it will create.