Civilization would survive a crash. The United States though would be unlikely to recover. The United States as we know it would cease to exist either
collapsing into Tyranny, like the Weimar Republic became the Third Reich or a shadow of its former self dominated and exploited by foreign powers.

If a strong government fails to keep control and the country descends into lawlessness, Europe and Asia will be on North America like ticks going
after the massive shale oil and tar sand deposits located in the US.

Personally I don't think the latter will happen, based on demographics and the tendency of history repeat itself, i.e. humans making the same
mistakes. We'll go for strong government, the kind that puts people on its knees and bullets in the back of their heads. The kind that will blame the
Jews for the financial collapse. The kind that will declare the world anti-christian and kill millions in the name of G-d, becoming the very beast
they thought they were fighting.

There will have to be another system created to take care of them.

What system? There won't be any system to protect the average person 65 or older. Did you see the system in New Orleans after Katrina? That will be
the system. The one where the elderly die off. Meanwhile all of the government dependents loot and vandalize anything they can get their hands on. The
only thing that restored order then was an overwhelming military force. If the system is broke we won't have that. Instead we will have what the
Weimar Republic had, gangs of paramilitary thugs, like the Stormtroopers, posing as saviors of the nation.

And that's what's going to happen. If you think the economy is just going to keep chugging along like it always has without a fundamental change in
practices, you are living in a fantasy world. Yes, it is bad. We have only ourselves to blame. At least I am taking responsibility and looking forward
to the opportunity to fix it.

So you fully expect to destroy the country then? You don't fix something by destroying it.

It would be nice, but unfortunately I think all the stalling for time and trying to offer temporary remedies has only allowed the crooks
perpetuating this whole scheme to take further advantage of it. Just look at the "bail outs" that the banks got. There is not going to be an end to
this until there is a DRAMATIC change, and if we aren't vigilant enough, there may not be any real change from what we have now, even then.

Historically that "dramatic" change has never worked out for the people. It didn't work in the French Revolution. It didn't work in the Bolshevik
Revolution. It didn't work in the Third Reich. It didn't work in the Iranian Revolution.
A new elite, worse than the old, happened each time.

Bankers always bottom out the system and cause depression, which is always disastrous, in order to create a prime opportunity to seize more
assets at ridiculously low prices. This has been going on for hundreds of years.

Hundreds? Try thousands.

Human elite has always exploited the masses for labor, property, and wealth in all of human history. Its human nature. This aspect will never change
as long as we are humans and humans are in charge.

Right now things are still stable. World trade is still flowing. The vast majority of the US debt is money owed to Americans who invested in their
government through pensions, bonds, and mutual funds. Right now the Treasury Department's main objective is paying those back who invested in the US.
You have to realize the US is basically the largest investment bank in the world. This $14 trillion plus in debt is primarily from direct investment.
If we really want to eliminate the debt we have to limit investment. We have to be prepared for a drop in our standard of living and higher taxes if
we do that. If managed properly we can avoid 30% unemployment and still manage to take care of our people. The era of SUVs, excess luxury and waste
will be over, but we will still be the actual United States and not some poor theofascist imitation claiming to be the US.

That's a jaw dropping 630+ billion dollars and probably more. As others have stated they will raise the debt ceiling and long before the Aug 2
deadline, its all political smoke and mirrors.

Here's an article from Peter Schiff outlining the debt ceiling and its brief history:

The ceiling was first imposed in 1917 as part of a deal that passed the Liberty Bond Act that funded America's entry into the First World War.
To make it easy for the Treasury to sell those bonds, Congress also amended the Federal Reserve Act to allow the Fed to hold government bonds as
collateral. But given the potential for unchecked Federal deficits, Congress sought to limit taxpayer exposure to $11.5 billion.

The problem was that Congress never passed a law to prevent future Congresses from raising the ceiling. And even if it had, that law could have been
rewritten by future legislation. Sure enough, when the Second World War rolled around the debt limit was raised frantically, leaving it at $300
billion by 1945. But believe it or not, after the War ended, the limit was actually reduced to $275 billion.

And lastly, the stark reality will force the government to tell the truth to Federal employees whose salaries and benefits are unsupportable given our
fiscal weakness.

But, on the other hand, if we raise the debt ceiling, we can postpone the crisis into an indefinite future. All of these tough choices could be
avoided. Government pay and benefits will flow unabated, and our creditors will continue to get their interest payments now. But in the future, the
value of principal repayments and government benefits and paychecks will lose purchasing power. That's because if we keep raising the ceiling
indefinitely, we risk destroying our currency. But the long slow death of a currency and the ebbing of a nation's economic vitality doesn't make for
huge headlines.

It is for that reason I am 100% confident that Congress will do the wrong thing and raise the debt ceiling for the 75th time in 50 years. In the end
there will be some kind of phony compromise with each side claiming victory. But while the politicians celebrate another dodged bullet, the U.S.
economy will continue to be shot full of holes.

Don't be such an apologist for the sorry state of affairs man.
It's the casino capitalism that's brought this mess about.
The bankers have to carry the can for this one. They've screwed up in 2008 and now they still fail at what they do...

Unfortunately America is screwed! People are too stupid to realize that America is broke and congress is telling people that everything is okay we
just have to raise the debt ceiling.

If I were to borrow money to give to charity, spend on useless things, and to build my firearms would a bank give me another loan? NO! Why the hell
doesn't congress get that through their heads? The simple fact that congress was bought out by corporations, you have banksters in the whitehouse,
and all judges seem to side with corporations is not helping America, at all!

I am sorry but America can't do anything to save itself. It is a sinking ship, if there are proper measure could barely make it back to shore.
However the captains seems to know nothing about sailing or fixing boats so that ship is already halfway under the ocean.

1. eliminate the tax breaks and loopholes that allow companies like Exxon to pay no tax.
2. create a tax on salaries over $10,000,000 and a bonus tax for excessive bonuses.
3. cut spending, specifically, pay cuts for all the (insert expletive) in government that brought about this mess.
4. Start tagging the big banks with fines for the improprieties committed. Goldman Sachs, you're first in line.
5. Give tax breaks to companies who operate entirely within the united states (exporting product is ok). This will create hiring which will result in
more income taxes collected.

I'm impressed that you've decided to put your political opinions out there even though you're a ranking member of the ATS paid staff. I disagree with
four out of five of your points unfortunately:

1. Corporate taxation is a myth. Exxon can't actually pay tax because the laws of risk vs. return require companies to pass all taxes on to the
consumers. Only a capital gains tax on the owners of Exxon would actually result in any money taken from the profits of Exxon. In specific, stocks
have to compete with bonds and other investments, and as a result of that fact if you reduce the return on an investment such as through corporate
taxation, that reduces the risk (ie the amount of money put into Exxon). So, the profit margin ends up the same. Its true you can sucker money out in
the short term but the pendulum then swings and it all averages out into nothing over time.
2. Taxation is already excessive on those earning huge salaries. Therefore its unfair to ask them to pay even more.
3. Agreed! Cut spending!
4. Tagging big banks for fines means for-profit justice. That isn't what justice is about. Justice should never involve punitive fees. And furthermore
fines and fees are something that would be passed on to the victims of banks, again, because of the whole risk-return problem, where reduced return
due to fines and fees means reduced risk (capital investment in banking). It would simply churn around the money in a circle of corruption: corrupt
banks giving their money to corrupt governments, then the corrupt government handing it back to corrupt banks.
5. Controlling who a company hires and fires can only work to hurt economies, because businesses always hire the most fitting person for the job after
all things are considered. Requiring companies hire American workers will only hurt the American economy and American salaries. While salaries may go
up due to higher job demand in the US, prices would go up even more than the salaries.

Here is the solution to fixing the American economy that I would guaranteed to work:
1. Shift government spending from 47% of GDP slowly down to less than 10% of GDP.
2. Tear down the fascist Federal Reserve system and replace it with a system of sound money. Ending government monopolies would also help. No more
government money monopolies. No more government electricity monopolies. No more government broadband monopolies. Sound money alone would go a long way
towards patching things up quickly.
3. Shift contracts from a corporate controlled oligarchy to a consumer controlled network. Why do we (Americans) allow the corporations to dictate our
contracts and dictate all the terms? The power should be in the buyers hands equally as the sellers hands. Consumers need to unite! There is no reason
we can't band together as buyers and demand ethical corporations and two-sided contracts.
4. Return our system of corporatism with a cavernous volume of regulations into a simple system of contract law and simple low-cost civil lawsuits
designed to prevent pollution and do all the things that corporate regulation can't and never will (since corporations are the ones who can control
the regulations when they are put at stake). Basic civil lawsuits always are better than going the complex regulatory route every single
time!

During the end of Greenspan, the economy could not stimulate inflation by lowering interest rates. That condition continues to this day. That is why
the Fed does not raise interest rates. There is no in-country inflation, per se. The inflation is there, but you have to look at the outside: the
price of gold, the price of oil. What that means is the American dollar is not buying the gold and the oil like it used to. Sure, you can still get
a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk for about the same price, which is keeping a revolution at bay. However, if the debt continues, and the money
printing continues, inflation will eventually catch up and destroy the savings of most, while enabling many to pay off their mortgages early. There
is a good side and a bad side to inflation.

The concept that the US will run out of money is unfounded. The effort to balance the budget is primarily pushed during a Democratic POTUS period,
usually as a means of criticizing the Republicans who support the "trickle-down" economics theory. All in all, mismanagement of the money is on
all our heads. We keep electing idiots.

Well, I attended a guest lecture of professor Stiglitz the other week. He made some very interesting points.

He said that trickle-down economics is proven to be a failure, meaning that all money is appropriated for the top in hopes that it would trickle down
to the rest. In the last 12 years, Americans experienced no wealth growth as everything went and remained in the top.

He came up with a number of reasons for the current mess:

-The Iraq/Afghanistan wars: the true cost is around 4-5 trillion, rather than the proclaimed $2 trillion.
-1 out of 2 veterans come back with some disability (physically or mentally), costing more than a $1 trillion
in liability claims and aftercare.
-The health care system has been very inefficient, costing 17% of GDP vs 9% for most developed country at inferior quality and with fewer
doctors, nurses per person.
-Greenspan & Bernanke: they urge for heightening the debt ceiling to pay much more in ten years. He said that central banks are political institutions
and interfere all the time - serving WallSt.
-Hundreds of billions spend on the weapon industry that provides weapons that don't work against enemies that
don't exist.
-Tax provisions that stimulate companies to invest abroad, rather than in the US.

And quite surprisingly, he considered austerity measures to not be the only solution. Politicians with a certain agenda only look at the debt
structure of the balance sheet, but should look at the other side to: Investment is key.

-Underinvestment in education has contributed to weaker economic performance, good education should be available to the masses to increase the overall
level of eduction and hence, economic efficiency and higher output and higher incomes. A country's most important asset: people, requires investment
leads to efficiency (China: investment in people, women - key success factor to economic performance)

-Discouraging banks from speculating. Legislation had been in place successfully for over 35 years but was then abandoned as it was deemed not
necessary any longer due to very strong economic performance. The very same people that said this legislation was not necessary any longer, now
brought this misery upon us by taking irresponsible risks in the name of fulfilling selfinterest.

-Charging companies for public resources (resources such as timber are now given away almost for free to corporations).

I don't have time to post all my notes, but if appreciated I will post them later.

while I don't disagree on the ownership aspect, I also think that they have enough money, and the desire to continue raping the world and, therefore,
a hefty fine, in the billions, might wind up being a fair exchange.

you think it's fair that a guy making $400,000 pays the same tax rate as a guy who makes $20 million?

Edgar Bronfman Jr was recently testifying against the owner of Limewire and he claimed that limewire cost the music industry billions of dollars and
that, without limewire (and others like them), the music industry wouldn't be suffering.

Limewire's lawyers then pointed out Bronfman's 18 million in salary whil cutting 40% of the music roster and laying off employees.

In other words, Bronfman's 18 million resulted in musicians and employees being laid off.

If these executives are going to draw pointlessly large salaries, which hurt employees, shareholders etc, then tax the crap out of them for it. Tag
them with a 50% tax on all salaries and bonuses over 1 million dollars (or some other reasonable cap).

I'm implying penalizing politicians for passing laws that allowed the banks to destroy the global economy. I'm implying that lawmakers who ignored
the warning signs should be penalized. Fine the SEC for not catching Goldman, Madoff etc as they raped and pillaged.

I'm implying that that, by putting the onus on the folks who make the rules, the rules might be adjusted to protect the public, as they were,
originally, intended.

I agree that we spend too much on defense but we do that because of the mess we're in. If we were to find ways to reduce our dependancy on foreign
oil, we'd find that we no longer needed to protect the nations that stab us in the back every time we turn around.

It seems to me one of the major issues going on with the wealthy in the US is hoarding of wealth and even when they do spend it, they keep the cash
flow within a network that only benefits others like them.

To me I think they need to spend more in the US, especially on small business. If they don't spend it maybe then a tax could come into effect. I
don't see any good reason for people to sit on tens or hundreds of millions of dollars and never spend it.

you think it's fair that a guy making $400,000 pays the same tax rate as a guy who makes $20 million?

This is very true and I think something needs to be said about it.

People keep saying "the top 1%" when talking about the problems here in the US.

It's not really the top 1-2%, it's the top .1-.00001%.

The top 1-2%(minus top .1% or so) are just as vulnerable in this economy as most of the rest.

Unless they have inside info on markets, or are wise enough to switch their stock portfolio's into precious metals, rare earth metals, etc.. they are
likely losing home value, and will pay increases in taxes over the next few years as everyone else.

The true criminals are at the top, and that's not merely the top 1-2%. That's still upper middle class.

I don't consider someone rich until they can totally scam the legal system and tax code by simply having too much money.

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