Fat Elvis,You seem to be comparing this year's team and this year's finish with a lot of other recent years in this current playoff drought, including last year's team

What commonalities do they have that make you think next year will, in fact, be the same result (scratching and clawing at the end of the season to make the playoffs)?

Because I really don't remember having a goalie like Reimer last year.I honestly don't recall still being in the playoff hunt with a few games to go.I don't recall us being one of, if not theyoungest team in the league.I don't recall ever being called a "tough team to play against".

I don't remember any of those things . . . so tell me, am I just some la-la-dreamer Leaf fan, or is it plain as day that this team has a much, much brighter future than any Leaf team in the last ten years has had?

Oh no, no comparisons to any previous team, this one is definitely a changed team, especially from the last few years products.

I am only thinking that I have heard this before regardless of team makeup, final standings, etc. Being the victims of media paparazzi, that the Leafs are, which unfortunately, all Canadian hockey fans seem to have to endure, it just seems to be the same ol' , same ol', year after year.

The media is in managements faces, the coaches' faces, the players' faces, and it's always the same rhetoric, "this year we intend to make the playoffs, and compete, anything less would be considered a disappointment", and so on.

It just makes me feel a bit for the loyal Leaf fan, I am simply suggesting to try what this ardent Oiler fan has learned, cautious optimism.

IF the Grabovskis, Kulemins, Reimers, etc can continue to play like they did, and IF Kessel, Phanuef, Komisarek, etc. find their games, as they were towards the end of the season, then yes, by all means, there is something there to get excited about. But until they hit the ice next year and we find out how they look, that's a lot of ifs.

Until they make the playoffs, 20th place or 30th place, it's still on the outside looking in.

Slozo, I agree that this team did end the season in a better place than they have in the season of recent memory. However, they had to be literally brilliant to even make it to that point. Reimer is a light at the end of the tunnel, but as many others have stated, so was Gustovsson that light a few years ago as was Giguere going into this year. If you want to hang you hat on a player with 36 games, good luck. Where is Halak again???? Just an example of how a hot goalie in the short term can cloud the judgement long term.

Also, as FER eluded to, this Leafs team has far more players this season with 'career years' than those on 'less than career' years. Ultimately, the only disappointments on the Leafs roster were the goalies prior to Reimer and Phaneuf for the first 50-60 games.

My point is this, the Leafs had many players with career season and a glimmer in the final 1/2 of the season in goaltending and still did not achieve the playoffs. Even if they did make the playoffs, most of the Leaf Nation realized that any success in the playoffs was on a prayer. So, the optimism is based on all those players having repeat career years (highly unlikely) and a goalie with less than 40 games experience being an elite player (more likely but still a stretch) only to make the playoffs and then do what???

As I have said time and time again, more talent is needed. This team today is simply does not have the chops today or developing to be a real contender.

Now, depending on the actions over the summer, that perception may change. The addition of some talent can really push that team from the 10th range into the 5th or 6th range. But that is yet to be determined. Based on today, the Leafs success is repetitive each year because the talent level is repetitive each year.

Ok, fair response, FatElvis. I still think I have been nothing but realistic and cautiously optimistic . . . what you seem to be describing is cautiously pessimistic, actually. But, I don't want to quibble with a guy like you that is on a roll!

Beans - as easily as you can say "if these Leafs hadn't had career seasons", I can take away ONE player - Gustavsson - and say if it had been Reimer instead of the Monster from the beginning of the year, the Leafs would be in 5th spot.

But that's just really silly, and pointless. In the end, it was a real down and then up season, yeah . . . but the end result is, the guys that brought us to the UP part? They are our core, to begin next season. The down guys? Well, Gustavsson isn't likely to see even one game next year, Giggy - if he stays - might play half the games he did this year, Lebda will be gone, and ok, Komisarek is still there, but playing loads better then in the beginning.

As brought up by another poster . . . as likely as it is that Grabovski might take a dip in production, it is just as likely he continues his upward trend. After all, he only really picked it up a third of the way into the season . . . Kulemin has been a steadily better player throughout his young career - why would you suddenly bet against that happening? etc.

I mean . . . trying to figure out who is going to have a career year is tough . . . but you don't automatically count on a still young, decently skilled player who has gotten better every year to take a dip the next year, do you?

I mean . . . the Oil have a tonne of guys like that - are they all going to take a dip next year? Poppycock!

Sure some leaf players had career years, but these players are still young....whose to say they won`t repeat their season ?? Maybe they will have better season`s again next year !!!

The Grab. Kul. Mc. line has had a full season together, they really picked it up late in the season. Now that they are comfortable with each other going into next season ( providing they all stay ), it won`t take 2 months for them to gel together, this is already accomplished.

Lupul looked great after he got his game back ( this player missed a wholr year ), he and kessel had some chemistry together, if Burke can get a good center for them, this line will be a major threat for the leafs next season.

Line 1 will be set.Line 2 is awesome alreadyLine 3 should finally provide some offense, Kadri looked really good going down the stretch, this guy has tremendous offensive upside, next season he should finally be ready. With the possible addition of a good UFA to play with Kadri....the leafs have 3 lines who can score...major difference.

The leafs have what looks like a real goalie, first time since the lock-out in 2005.

Phaneuf made major strides in the 2nd half, Schenn is another year older and wiser, leafs add a puck moving defenseman and their blue - line is fine.

Bottom line, there is still missing talent. Even though the Leafs picked up the 2nd most points in the NHL since January, they did that with the most OT loses. They were 91 goals for (5th best in that stretch) and 90 goals against (7th worst). They are not a dominating team. They win squeekers more often than not and lose big more often than not. We are still talking about a team that will be, at best, 38-33-11. Regardless of what other people may believe, a loss in OT is still a loss. Someone excited about a team that is (at best) 6 games under .500 is seeing things a little more rosy than most:

This is a team that loses most games against playoff teams in the league and is barely .500 against the non-playoff teams. They played nearly 25% of their games into OT and are 7-11 in OT and SO. This is a team that I believe broke a record for most times shut out in a season and lost far more games by more than 2 goals than winning games by more than 2 goals.

I don't care what anyone says about this or that player having career season or not, this team is not there yet and really not that close. They are not talented enough to play with the big boys over 82 games.

My point is and has been this 1 - The Leafs are still not that good2 - Even if they made the playoffs they are not good enought o beat the best teams in the NHL in a playoff series.

(Slozo, please, every time you want to throw a shot in about the Oilers, don't waste your time. Everyone can clearly see the Oilers suck and are a long way to being even as good as the crappy Leafs. Now that we got that over with........)

"They win squeekers more often than not and lose big more often than not."

No need to make fun of the Oilers when you give out lines like that. [8D

So . . . you are judging the Leafs based on the whole season, taking in all those early season blow-outs, and adding it in with all the close wins we had against many playoff teams late in the year. Fair enough.

Do we need to do the blow-out losses count again, Beans? I mean, compared with other teams?

"They win squeekers more often than not and lose big more often than not."

No need to make fun of the Oilers when you give out lines like that. [8D

So . . . you are judging the Leafs based on the whole season, taking in all those early season blow-outs, and adding it in with all the close wins we had against many playoff teams late in the year. Fair enough.

Do we need to do the blow-out losses count again, Beans? I mean, compared with other teams?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Careful Slozo my friend if you introduce another team in to this thread, it could be construed as a strawman argument, and you of all of us, shouldn't be the one to do that!

I agree somewhat with where Beans is taking this I think, they are better, it would be hard to argue that, but they are still a key player or 2 away from where, he, and I as well, think they need to be. You yourself mentioned it, for certain, a big skilled, bona fide, first line center to play with Kessel. This piece alone, IMO, gives them the credible first line and the success it should bring.

As it is now, they are similar to that 'other' team you were about to introduce, close, but not quite there yet. The biggest difference between the two fan camps, as I have mentioned, is that I, speaking only of myself, have learned to temper my optimism, while still retaining the same loyalty.

If the same question were asked of my team, my answer would most certainly be, same ol', same ol', but looking up. Of course, last place is easy to look up from......I hope.

Again Slozo, this debate isn't the Oilers being worse than the Leafs. It's literally undebatable at this point.

However, if you want to open up the can of worms of what team was beaten by the most we can. Before we do that I would like to hear your actual rebuttle to my last post as you haven't done that yet. Regardless of what you want to think, the success or failure of a team is based on a season, not what ever period of time works best. But let's throw just a couple of points out, for the sake of argument.

1 - What team now holds the record for most times shut out in an NHL season???

2 - In the Leafs valiant run since the All Star break, they went 18 and 14 with 91 GF and 90 GA. (If you add in tonight's loss they were 18-15 with 92 GF and 94 GA.

3 - In those 32 games where the Leafs were shut out twice and lost by more than 2 goals 4 times. So, in 14 losses, nearly 1/2 the time the Leafs were shut out or spanked.

Doesn't matter how you look at it or at what time of year you look at it, the Leafs are what they are. That is a team that is not good enough and is (at their best) barely a .500 team. Start of the year they were far worse than that. However, even in the best times they are still barely .500.

Toronto has lost 45 games this season. Here is the breakdown of those losses by goal differential

2 goals or less = 27 games (60% of all lost games)3 goals or more = 18 games (40% of all lost games)Times Shutout = 11 (25% of all losses were shutouts)Biggest blowout - 7 Goals (7-0 vs Rangers on Jan 19th)

Edmonton lost 57 games this season(depending on tomorrow). Here is the breakdown of those losses by goal differential

2 goals or less = 37 games (65% of all lost games)3 goals or less = 20 games (35% of all lost games)Times Shutout = 7 (13% of all losses were shutouts)Biggest blowout - 6 goals (twice, vs NYR on Nov 14 and CAR on Nov 9)

There you go! Even though the Oilers morbidly lost 12 more games than the mighty Leafs, the Oilers lost only 2 more games by 3 or more goals. They were shutout less often and they did not have as big of a blow out. In the grand scheme of things, the difference between the two teams in goals against is 15 over an 82 games season, or one goal difference between the two teams every 5-6 games.

I can agree with the arguement that the Leafs talent still needs to be added to with a big first line centre. I still think there was considerable improvement in the Leafs this year. I would have been more disappointing to me if the Leafs had not improved the club by 11 points over last season. It would be extremely disappointing as a fan to be in the second year of the BB turnaround, adding some of the young talent that he did and finish last in the conference again with less points than the year previous. So IMO that indeed shows that maybe Burkes plan is working. The Leafs can be compared in many facets with any of the playoff teams this year and anyone can go and pull wins, losses and one goal, two goal, shutouts etc... but really the difference between the Leafs and most teams in the playoffs is the play of the special teams. The Leafs power play had more chances then anyone else in the conference yet scored 24 pp goals less then the conference leaders. So take those 24 goals and add them to the one goal , two goal games and you have a different story. Add that to the 3rd worst penalty kill and it is disaster. 24 fewer goals allowed on the penalty kill and alas you get a different story.To me, the Leafs can add the big talented centerman but if they can't find a way to play special teams then they finish in 9-11 spot again.

Porkchop, its funny thay when i say the leafs have improved and should make the playoffs next season based on the way they played in the 2nd half.....some people kind of take this statement and think leaf fans are saying that they will go to the Stanley Cup finals next season...

Leaf fans DON~T post this nonsense...NON - LEAF fans do !!! I don`t see any leaf fan here saying...we are close to the cup....the leafs are the greatest.....plan the parade route....etc... etc...

Beans you can twist numbers until you turn blue in the face.....

The fact of the matter is....no matter how the leafs won those games since Jan. 29 / 2011....They were 2nd best in the entire NHL ( in collecting points ) in the second half....only SJ had more.

Special teams are killing the leafs..the PP was brutal, even with kaberle there ( i think he had 1 goal with the leafs this season ). Their PK is a stand-still..stay - put system that just doesn`t work.

Ron Wilson is, in my opinion, is the biggest Dummie in the league. The leafs woes on these issues will not change as long as he is there, i think. Did you hear what this guy said to the media when questioned about the play of Reimer ??....something like...well the way we are playing we can win no matter who is in the net....What a Fkin idiot !!! i`m sure leaf players really love this clown.

If not for Reimer...the leafs would definitely be a lottery team again this season.....no doubt about it !!! i watch all the games, this kid gave ALL leaf players a reason to believe again with his super - strong play.

No one is twisting numbers. Numbers can't be twisted. They are what they are. I laugh every time you bring this up. You say 'the fact of the matter' when that is only ONE of many facts represented by the statistical measurement of the Leafs.

Secondly, no one is denying the Leafs performance in the past few months. However, my point from the very first post on this thread has been the same. They MIGHT be good enough to make the playoffs but they are still no where good enough to do anything in the playoffs.

Funny, you prove that point with this comment :

If not for Reimer...the leafs would definitely be a lottery team again this season.....no doubt about it !!!

I can't tell you how heartily I laugh when someone tries to make a point to dispute a point of view and they end up contridicting themselves in their own post.

Duke,Gotta love your passion for the Leafs. I think like most Leaf fans you probably see everthing blue and white. Don't change a thing but here are some thoughts for you.

Remember a couple of things when you post. First: You are always entitled to your own opinion and others will always be entitled to disagree. It doesn't mean your opinion is wrong, it just means others see it differently then you.

Second: Other people are just as big of fan for their team as you are for yours. Same goes for the teams you dislike. Others dislike the Leafs just as much as you may dislike the their fave team. So they think the same of their team as you do of the Leafs. Example - Beans thinks everything Oil is the best way and is less likely to see and accept flaws that others see with the Oil. You and other Leaf fans are the same way about the Leafs.

Lastly: Some people will always disagree just to disagree with a Leaf fan that is as fervent a fan as you are. Some people disagree because they automatically think they know more then most about most things. Just the way it is and ya gotta live with it.

You have to remember that for most Leaf fans they have been mostly able to do the fan bashing of other teams and get away with it. Now the tide has turned and Leaf fans are enduring agruably their worst stretch of seasons in the history of the franchise. The Leaf fans are now on the recieving end of what they gave out for so many years. You gotta take it if you can give it, thats what my grandpappy used to say.

Beans - surely you were not refering to me with the following:

"I was waiting for the unsilent minority to chime in with some crap. "

If so, wow, kind of rude. I don't think I posted anything to deserve that.

Sorry Chop, I assumed people would realize that is directed straight at Duke. My apologies if I offended you.

It appears from your post that you have some of the same issues with Duke as other do. Not only does he jump on and off the bandwagon in regards to one day the Leafs suck and the next day the Leafs rule, but you hit the nail dead on. No one can disagree with Duke, and if they do then you can rest assured that the next post from Duke with be the same as the last only with more words in bold. Oh, and let's not forget that any stat that is not supportive his view is 'bent' but any stat he provides is proven fact. Even when a OT loss not longer is a loss because The Duke said so (insert sly eyebrow raise here.)

And I kind of take offense to the "Beans thinks everything Oil is the the right way," comment. I think of anyone on this site I am one of the most objective. Garbage is garbage and great is great. Do I want my my team to be one of the great ones?? Absolutely. Am I dilussional when my team is garbage and call them great?? Not at all. Do I see the picture of the future differently than a non-fan of the Oilers?? Mostly likely. But is that because it is differernt or because I am more aware of the Oilers than a non-fan??

Beans i`m sure every stat you posted is right....but that still doesn`t change the fact that the leafs were # 2 in points since the all - star break.

Yes, Reimer was the MAIN reason, thats why i posted that comment, not to contradict myself. I made that comment because it is true, I made that comment to let readers see that i`m not looking through blue and white glasses and over estimating this leaf team, like i said if not for Reimer 25 % of those wins would not have happened, i know this.

The leafs have to get a....1st line center.Another top 6 forward.A puck moving defenseman.The rest can be filled in with what they have....they will be just fine next season when this happens. Surely not a stanley cup contender but good enough to make some noise.

But Duke, I never said the Leafs did not produce the 2nd most points since the All Star break. But I did clearly prove that the Leafs did that through sweak wins for the most part. You don't get to say that I bend numbers and then back pedal out of it. I'm calling you on it.

If you call someone on something, you better be able to back it up. If you can't, don't bother posting it.

quote:The leafs have to get a....1st line center.Another top 6 forward.A puck moving defenseman.The rest can be filled in with what they have....they will be just fine next season when this happens. Surely not a stanley cup contender but good enough to make some noise.

You talk as if top-6 forwards and puck moving defensemen are growing on trees, and all you need to do is pick them and insert them into your lineup

From what I can tell, they also have to:- resign Schenn - how much do you think it will take?- resign Gunnarson - he's been a good surprise, how much to resign?- resign Reimer - now thats a hard one to put a price tag on, no doubt Burke and his agent will not be close when they open up that discussion.- resign MacArthur - great pickup by the Leafs last year, and he produced, now they're gonna have to pay him. And if they don't he'll be hard to replace at the same price.

And don't forget Rosehill

Burkie is going to be a busy guy this summer...

Guest4278 ( )

Posted - 04/10/2011 : 20:17:29

quote:Originally posted by The Duke[Yes, Reimer was the MAIN reason, thats why i posted that comment, not to contradict myself. I made that comment because it is true, I made that comment to let readers see that i`m not looking through blue and white glasses and over estimating this leaf team, like i said if not for Reimer 25 % of those wins would not have happened, i know this.

The leafs have to get a....1st line center.Another top 6 forward.A puck moving defenseman.The rest can be filled in with what they have....they will be just fine next season when this happens. Surely not a stanley cup contender but good enough to make some noise.

OK finally we are getting somewhere. Totally agree what you said what the leafs need and that it would probably make them playoffs bound but not a contender.

But look back at some of the old posts especially at the beginning of the season. You thought the leafs would be battling 1st in the division (with pretty much the same roster) and y ou had your puck moving defensemen in Kaberle. I am glad that you are finally toning down your expectations of the leafs to more realistic outcomes.

I hope you remember this post at the beginning of the next season especially if they sign what you think they need.

Sorry Chop, I assumed people would realize that is directed straight at Duke. My apologies if I offended you.

It appears from your post that you have some of the same issues with Duke as other do. Not only does he jump on and off the bandwagon in regards to one day the Leafs suck and the next day the Leafs rule, but you hit the nail dead on. No one can disagree with Duke, and if they do then you can rest assured that the next post from Duke with be the same as the last only with more words in bold. Oh, and let's not forget that any stat that is not supportive his view is 'bent' but any stat he provides is proven fact. Even when a OT loss not longer is a loss because The Duke said so (insert sly eyebrow raise here.)

And I kind of take offense to the "Beans thinks everything Oil is the the right way," comment. I think of anyone on this site I am one of the most objective. Garbage is garbage and great is great. Do I want my my team to be one of the great ones?? Absolutely. Am I dilussional when my team is garbage and call them great?? Not at all. Do I see the picture of the future differently than a non-fan of the Oilers?? Mostly likely. But is that because it is differernt or because I am more aware of the Oilers than a non-fan??

Easy big fella, I was just using you as an example. But if you read your last sentence ( I have put it in bold), you back up my point that I was trying to make to Duke. People are always more "aware" of their favourite team and more readily able to provide ammunition in support of that team. My apologies for kind of offending you, but that last sentence is what made you a good example IMO.

quote:Although the leafs were pretty bad....4 more wins from the monster...........8 points3 more wins from a healthy giguere....6 points

yabbut duke...they didn't get em.

Its easy to postulate on what could have been, the ifs and buts...the leafs had as many good bounces this year as they did bad - for every win that monster or giggy could have had but didn't, remember the ones that the leafs got but could have had go the other way. In the end the team did well but fell short of the playoffs. Stop worrying about it and move on.

The Leafs have every reason to be positive about next year, and assuming Burke can get the bits he needs to get and can resign the players he needs to resign, they should be even better next year. Look forward, not behind.

Hey Slozo what did you think Of Colburn and i forget the name right now but that other kid you guys had in the lineup Saturday against the habs?I really like Colburn the big knock on him from the start was he had all the toools but no guts and for his first game in the NHL he battled hard and showed guts and an obvious Talent i would hold on to him, he is a natural center no? he could make a very good number 2 center one day maybe even a number 1, If the Leafs sign or trade for a big number 1 center they could be looking pretty good down the middle next year providing this kid can play the way he did against the habs,, With Kadri as a number 2 center Colburn and Bozak as 3 and 4,, if you add a true proven top six center to that mix the problems down the middle should be taken care of,,,

I think the leafs will be alright next year,, thwe moves i would make if i was Brian Burke is try and sign Marty Turco as a backup, stand up guy good solid vetran and will be cheap.. (obviously if Giguere would sign for the same contract keep Giguere but i think he will fetch a bit more) move in 1 or 2 core energy players into the bottom 6 chris higgens comes to mind, Again cheap got a lot of upside and is a all ehart all the time type player, and try and snagg that big time center but honestly that would be least important to me if i were the Leafs GM Kadri could be that number 1 center you are looking for as soon as next year he looked strong at the end of the season, and If Colborn pans out he should play in the top 6 aswell. obviously this isn't an answer for next year but i would suck to be paying a player 7 million a yar as your number one center instead of developping to young and potential long term talents that could be doing the same job in a few years