The one person I know who used it has completely and totally regretted it. She said she didn't learn very much and missed out on the "college experience".

That's not what I hear from people I know using it. And you don't miss out on the college experience. It helps you get a fast degree and then you can transfer anywhere you can afford. College-Plus just helps you skip ridiculous gen-ed courses.

People about to take, or in the middle of taking, gen ed courses very often think they're unnecessary and a waste of time. People who don't buckle down and learn what the courses are designed to teach very often find themselves in over their heads in upper division classes. This is especially true when it comes to writing skills. Most arriving college students think they know how to write. Virtually none do.

And what you've been told about professors flunking papers because they're poorly written is not exaggerated in the slightest. I do it all the time. And the folks receiving those grades almost always express the wish that they'd paid closer attention and worked harder in their writing classes.

I echo Dr. Srader. The general education courses I took were some of the most valuable. If you buy into the classical liberal arts model (wise people know LOTS and work to understand widely, rather than always specializing in techne of "what I want to do"), then capitalizing on general education courses are pretty important and soul-developing.

I've seen the difference in people who work REALLY hard to CLEP out of credits or game the Liberty University system. People put so many hours into gaming tests that that's who they become (block checkers).

Not that getting yourself from one thing to another isn't a good thing... all I'm saying is general education is super important. That's probably why colleges have always required it.

It is very hard though for some parents to pay lets guess $8,000 for a semester at either NCU or PHC (for example) for a History 101, Psychology 101, College Algebra and Literature 101 course, now maybe at one of your fine institutions they would actually get a professor who cared but when you examine what you are actually "learning" it is pretty hard to justify. Now lets say you went to state university you might pay half that price to sit in a lecture hall of 100 plus students and be taught by a TA who is just reading off the lesson plan and passing out test graded by a scantron machine again are you really getting what you are paying for? Under college plus you could get credit for those classes for maybe a couple hundred dollars each or attend a community college and pay again a couple hundred dollars for each class, it is hard to justify in my mind unless you are on a full scholarship (or close enough to so cost is a wash) or qualify for grants that will again pay enough to make cost not an issue.

BUT, I would recommend during those years that you work, save money, apply for aid and otherwise prepare yourself to take your final two years at an accredited four year institution in the major of your choice, most of these courses are taught by professor who care and you will prepare yourself to actually work in the field you are majoring in.

Maybe if cost is not an object you could attend a four year institution and enjoy your time there but for many families especially with the sky-rocketing cost of tuition it is simply cost prohibitive, unless you want ten of thousands of dollars in debt to start off your career. Dr Srader or Isaiah, would either of you actually recommend going $80K in debt with student loans to complete a four year degree program at either of your institutions? In know both of your starting arguments will probably be about the enormous opportunities in grants and scholarship programs available but even if a student could get a 50% discount, $40K is still too much in my opinion.

It is very hard though for some parents to pay lets guess $8,000 for a semester at either NCU or PHC (for example) for a History 101, Psychology 101, College Algebra and Literature 101 course, now maybe at one of your fine institutions they would actually get a professor who cared but when you examine what you are actually "learning" it is pretty hard to justify. Now lets say you went to state university you might pay half that price to sit in a lecture hall of 100 plus students and be taught by a TA who is just reading off the lesson plan and passing out test graded by a scantron machine again are you really getting what you are paying for? Under college plus you could get credit for those classes for maybe a couple hundred dollars each or attend a community college and pay again a couple hundred dollars for each class, it is hard to justify in my mind unless you are on a full scholarship (or close enough to so cost is a wash) or qualify for grants that will again pay enough to make cost not an issue.

Are you saying that the professors at NCU and PHC don't really care about teaching their students, or am I misreading? I haven't been to either school, but when I visited Grove City, I was highly impressed with the caliber of the professors teaching introductory classes. All three of the introductory classes I saw (marketing, literature, political science) had professors who clearly cared about their students - they knew most by name, and one even remembered prayer requests from the previous week.

I won't disagree that college professors at many schools won't always care about introductory classes. But, especially at small liberal arts colleges, that's not always the case.

(I also don't disagree there's a very good economic justification for CP. I honestly haven't looked into it very much.)

I believe you misread what he was trying to say. He was trying to say that at a place like NCU or PHC you will most likely get a proffessor that cares, but the cost of a school like that is very expensive. On the other hand, if you don't attend a NCU or PHC kinda school then you are most likely going to get a teacher who doesnt really care, like he said just reading off of the lessons plan and stuff. His point was that if you arent able to pay for a school like NCU or PHC without putting youself 40K in debt, than college plus would allow you to get credit for those courses taught by someone reading off the lesson plan.

If i got it wrong, please correct me.

_________________-Ryan

Bosh Bebb wrote:

What do you guys think about disenfranchising all white people? That could be legit, too. I think there's lots of advocacy for it.

Foxtrot...you read it exactly right, small liberal arts school WILL have teachers that care; but is 40 hours of instruction from someone who really cares teaching you the basics about history or government worth $2000. The answer is yes if that $2000 is disposable income but if it is not then the answer is probably no.

Again I would make the distinction for upper level classes and of course something like biology/chemistry are best taught hands on but if those are not going to be your major it is probably not worth pursuing those classes anyway.

I've lost count of how many students show up in my classes completely thunderstruck that I grade papers both for content mastery and for word-by-word, sentence-by-sentence proofreading. What I've heard over and over again is that in their community college writing classes, the written work comes back with a check, or with about three sentences of global comments, but that no one ever, ever makes them take apart their writing, fix it at the most basic level, and put it back together again. Those students get Cs and Ds in upper division classes, and are refused admission to graduate programs, because, never mind what CollegePlus put on their transcript, they simply don't know how to write. Some of them go back and take the writing classes again on our campus, where the faculty do whatever's necessary to teach mastery, including individualized attention and tutoring, instead of going through the motions for fifteen weeks with a lecture hall full of half-awake faces, or putting self-grading modules up on an LMS.

Years ago, a good friend of mine took a weekend trip to Mexico to get lap band surgery, because it's so cheap there. After nearly dying of internal hemorrhage, spending six weeks in an American hospital piling up bills, and getting fired from her job for the amount of work she missed, she conceded that cheap isn't always cheap. I know the argument "Pseudo-teaching I can afford is better than teaching that'll put me in debt" is appealing, but I've seen how it plays out in the life of too many students to put any stock in it.

Now, I freely admit that there exist a few basic classes that are taught the exact same way in an AP class and at Harvard, and for material in that category, it makes sense to go the cheapest route. But that has a lot to do with the student's major. A math or engineering major might do just fine with a community college freshman history class, but I sure wouldn't recommend shortcut history coursework if they wanted to major in Bible, or in any fine art, or Literature, or Rhetoric and Public Address. It goes without saying that if they want to be a history major, that foundation had better be of the finest quality they can get, but the same is true in all the fields I listed, and several more. If you want a good read on what classes you can get away with picking up in a sub-optimal setting, talk with a faculty member in your area of study. But the notion that "If it's core, then any substitute will do" is very unwise.

Last thought: none of what I'm saying is aimed in a disrespectful fashion at community college teachers. I've taught community college classes before, so I know how hard they work, by and large. Most would agree that in the big crowd-control classes, they're not teaching at all. They're dangling content in front of students, and the ones who didn't need the class in the first place will pick up a tip or two. The rest will get about as much education as the evangelizing an atheist gets driving past a church.

CoachCarter,My post expressed distaste at the immaturity of snubbing general education courses.

I've got some pretty good complaints about some of the ones I received at PHC. The school you go to etc wasn't the point.

General Education is a vital part of training that you want to challenge yourself with as a student. If your attitude is "this stuff I need to get out of the way", then you are exactly the type of person who needs to spend MORE time in general education building wisdom That doesn't even have to happen at college. I'm a big believer in self-feeding. But whatever.

To your point: No, I wouldn't recommend for anyone to spend $80k to get that from PHC. Much less to go in debt for it.

If you have worked hard and get scholarships etc, then yeah, it's worth it to pay for some of that at a good school. If you're not going to pay for it, saying "it's stupid" rather than "it's too expensive" is not the right answer.

...and that is why I never said that gen ed classes you get at a good liberal arts school are "not good" or "silly" my point was simply they are not worth the money if you are strictly performing a cost benefit analysis. As stated your field of endeavor does matter if it is government then taking quality government classes at the 100 and 200 level might make more sense that if you are an engineering student. Under the category of stupid though I would feel pretty comfortable stepping out on a limb and placing gen ed courses at a major state university into that category, assuming a lecture hall and a TA/GA for your teacher. A community college is more of a roll of the dice it's possible to get a great teacher in a small class environment or a carbon copy of what you would get from the large state university.

Dr Srader is absolutely correct as far as writing goes, I'll confess to being one of those students that mastered the content only to get B's and C's with nothing but grammatical corrections from a history or political science professor; while some English major got the same grade and could not differentiate the Declaration of Independence from the Constitution but showed their ignorance with impeccable grammar. Maybe your money is better spent taking "cheaper" gen ed courses but taking a quality writing class or seminar.

Ultimately this is a personal choice but as I stated originally I don't think sitting at a computer and never actually going to class for the complete duration of your bachelor's degree is the same as sitting in a class with a teacher that cares, as most professors teaching upper level courses for students who are going to carry on in the same field seem to genuinely want to produce qualified proteges with the stamp of approval from their institution.

I started doing college plus this year! I am looking at getting a communications degree but i'm not sure yet. College Plus is not for everyone! If you are someone that needs to have that social experience along with college this is not for you. I am liking it so far! It has its ups and downs but I know for sure that this is where God wanted me!

_________________"I don't know the key to sucess, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone."- Bill Cosby

Silveradodream, I appreciate that you feel at peace about your decision. But with all do respect, how do you know what you are missing?

I am a Communications major at my school and with the confusing nature of a lot of Comm theory I find it difficult to understand how you are getting an excellent education without personal access to teachers who you can converse with let alone fellow students surrounding you who force you to practice and think about your communication skills because of the differences you have with them (what is the point of learning how to communicate if you never have to engage with people of a different worldview?)

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