Fresh off his Yahoo victory lap, Dan Loeb has a little fun at Bill Ackman's expense, touting (in a Bloomberg message) a new Herbalife (HLF+0.7%) product: "The Herbal Enema, administered by Uncle Carl." The stock today has risen to its highest level since David Einhorn famously joined a company earnings call in May 2012.

Based on independent research conducted in the U.S. in 2013 by Nielsen Research, 63% of former Herbalife Distributors would recommend the business opportunity to a friend or family member and 87% would recommend the product. That is an impressive show of consumer confidence!

Another dividend payout is due. Shorts do not earn but have to pay. Figure Ackmans 20 million shares X dividend. Ouch! How much longer can he take these losses with his clients money? And then there is the fact that he is deep underwater with his position.

This is simply Enron, Worldcom, and Madoff all over again. It appears those who should have seen that have once again missed a scam or because they believe they will profit in the short have simply ignored the truth.

Ackman need more than just an enema, although he could use on, he is full of you know what! Ackman is like a schoolboy who came to a gun fight with a plastic knife. He had no idea who he was dealing with or how they would fight back and Ackman deservedly and expectedly got his butt whipped.

Just a matter of time before Ackman cries Uncle and completely covers his short position.

Tony Dee: Some of what you write is actually factual. Ackman certainly didn't know HOW he would be dealt with, believing authorities, after all the pain and suffering of investors, not to mention embarrassment from the fallout of Enron, Worldcom, Madoff and all the other scams authority did nothing about, that this time they WOULD get it right before more massive losses, pain and suffering.

His mistake was being right, and trying to do something about it..... and believing in the system of U.S. Law & Justice.

The worst case scenario I see is that people may be overpaying relative to other options to enjoy a healthier life. What is it about this that results in 'massive losses, pain and suffering'? Or maybe I'm missing something?

CrimeBusters, I beg to differ with you. A lot of what I said, in fact everthing I said is factual. Ackman certaintly came to this fight unprepared. However something you forgot to mention is that he (Ackman) lied. There is no basis to his theory, except in Ackmans mind.

To compare Herbalife with Enron, WorldCom etc. is utterly preposterous. I think you have been drinking at the fountain of Billy-Boy Ackman for way too long.

Not only am I happy to see that Ackman has lost his short bet, I sincerely hope the SEC investigates him for market manipulation as well.

Obviously Ackman showed no remorse for the millions of customers who absolutely love and use the Herbalife products, for the 6000+ Herbalife employees who make their living happily working for Herbalife and owned shares of HLF in their retirement accounts, the HLF investors or the 3 million Herbalife distributors who make a living from Herbalife. So I say, why show any remorse on taking Ackman down?

Ackman lied and please do not ever compare Herbalife to Enron again. You are embarrassing yourself.

"jkj858" justifies the $HLF schemes in this quote... "The worst case scenario I see is that people may be overpaying relative to other options to enjoy a healthier life. What is it about this that results in 'massive losses, pain and suffering'? Or maybe I'm missing something?******You certainly are "jkj858.".... "The worst case scenario it was said in the TTI scam was that the unsuccessful would at least be left with a real, albeit over-priced emerald.

Same tired arguments ahead of other pyramid schemes that have collapsed or have been shut down,

Again the product used to mask a pyramid scheme is irrelevant to the scheme. Products or services are the "smoke & mirrors" ……the vehicle that drives the scheme.

The “kit” required to become a “distributor in TTI was $26, but in order to “qualify” in “the dream to wealth and prosperity” particularly the dream of becoming “captain for life," or a “mentoring center” etc, equivalent to $HLF’s Senior Consultant, Herbalife Advantage Plan Distributor (HAP), Success Builder, Supervisor, Active Supervisor, World Team, Active World Team, Global Expansion Team, Millionaire Team, Presidents Team, 20k President, 30k President, and 50k President, required substantial investment in capital, “product” and time.

Many lost their homes, gave up their regular jobs and descended hopelessly into debt to the tune of hundreds of thousands, (“pursuing the dream with the $26 start up kit").

They were encouraged using the old “carrot and stick” trick. Encouraged to spend more with the promise they would earn more, and when it didn't happen, then berated for being lame & lazy and psychologically brainwashed and brow-beaten to “work harder" and “learn more”… “Success was just around the corner.”

Fact is TTI followed by BIM was a vicious pyramid scheme mathematically predesigned so the vast majority of participants fail.

The whole structure of $HLF and MLM based on the Amway model is designed for the “higher-ups” to benefit through the loss of the majority of participants…. same as Madoff or any other pyramid/Ponzi scheme.

The only thing “investors” of $HLF stock, (with this scheme allowed on the Stock Market) are “investing” in, is the gamble that some of them will make “tons of money” before the “day of reckoning.”

Many obviously don’t recognize that is precisely what they are doing through the hype and rising stock price of $HLF shares being in the same boat as *Icahn who actually boasts “his best investments were ones he didn't know anything about,” and of course those who know the masked “pyramid selling” system intimately and “milking” it for all it’s worth, banking on the fact authorities for decades have essentially “closed their eyes” to these predatory practices.

*That is if Icahn is telling the truth about his ignorance and if he has applied it to $HLF or in reality in the category of those who know the masked “pyramid selling” system intimately and “milking” it for all it’s worth, banking on the fact authorities for decades have essentially “closed their eyes” to these predatory practices.

Thank you for your informative response. The one thing I guess I had forgotten was that HLF does not drop ship products leaving distributors to purchase inventory in advance. But like most businesses, some investment in time and capital is necessary to become successful.

One issue I have is with your statement implying HLF is similar to the TTI scam: "Again the product used to mask a pyramid scheme is irrelevant to the scheme". I would suggest that the ultimate buyer of HLF products would not consider the product to be irrelevant. Most people who get involved in HLF are primarily motivated by the desire to become healthier. Whereas most people who invest in emeralds are probably just motivated by return on investment.

I also take exception to your comments "vast majority of participants fail" and " the loss of the majority of participants". How is it a loss or a failure if participants become, or learn to become, healthier? Or in the case of those in search of great profits, learn to spend more time in due diligence before making substantial investments in the future.

David, over the years I have pursued my dreams and made some bad investments resulting in substantial losses and wasted time. Where was the government when I needed them to protect me from myself?

You are right distributor Dan. Herbalife does ship directly to customers. Also I liked the article on yahoo today about the craigslist/ebay test. Where are all the disgruntled distrbutors selling masses of product? Only in Ackmans imagination.

It's the same thing - If the company a drop ship for you, it still accumulates volume in your own account, which counts towards qualifications for a higher level of discount i.e. the 5,000 accumulative volume qualification over 12 months to become a Supervisor, or Sales Leader. (A mere 4/5 customers per month - another reason why 50,000 tonnes of product isn't sitting around in peoples' garages per year).

We also purchase and hold our own inventory for more local customers and this is the dominant way of operating these days, with the growth of the daily consumption model and the use of fixed locations. (Which, by the way, are not sign-written so that an infinite number of Wellness Centres, Nutrition Clubs or Fit Clubs can operate in the same area whilst maintaining the person to person contact approach, which has always been central to the company's philosophy).

"jmj858" ........ You replied in part with these comments....“One issue I have is with your statement implying HLF is similar to the TTI scam: "Again the product used to mask a pyramid scheme is irrelevant to the scheme". I would suggest that the ultimate buyer of HLF products would not consider the product to be irrelevant. Most people who get involved in HLF are primarily motivated by the desire to become healthier. Whereas most people who invest in emeralds are probably just motivated by return on investment” and…..

“David, over the years I have pursued my dreams and made some bad investments resulting in substantial losses and wasted time. Where was the government when I needed them to protect me from myself?”*****You still don’t seem to understand. Your definition of "investment" does not fit the circumstances.... Pyramid/Ponzi schemes are not "investments" they are fraud forbidden in law.

The government is not there to protect you against “bad investments” in a democratic capitalist society. Making "bad investments" is one thing; being ripped off in a pyramid/Ponzi scheme forbidden by law is quite another, particularly the likes of the Madoff scheme and the Canadian schemes, TTI-BIM and Pigeon King International; "hard evidence" continually placed under the collective noses of government authority.

Also within the $HLF scheme there are two separate issues: Product and pyramid fraud: Addressing the legal issue of pyramid schemes: In court, the value of the product (even cold hard hard cash, gold and silver etc.) is totally irrelevant in the perpetrating of a pyramid scheme.

With respect to product: I have made no judgment as to the quality of Herbalife products. I share your opinion they are over-priced, but product, and the arguments with respect to product are the diversion: The “smoke & Mirrors of the pyramid “game,” simply masking the fraud.

According to the SEC: "A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation. The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to keep the scheme going."

I was not aware that HLF 'pays returns to its investors (members) from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors'. I had always thought that HLF pays returns to its investors 'from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation'.

I also was unaware that HLF 'entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments'. I thought HLF entices new investors with the potential for greater health and secondarily, greater wealth.

I will grant you that the HLF model 'requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors' to continue to profitably sell its products while providing sufficient incentives to the high volume distributors to keep them from straying. This is not unlike the large fitness centers who can provide lower cost memberships to more people because of the high dropout rate.

So unless you can provide a better argument for labeling HLF a Ponzi scheme, my definition of 'investment' seems to fit the circumstances better than trying to make an association with HLF into some sort of fraudulent scheme. Just because you see some smoke does not necessarily mean there is a fire.

Herbalife was examined by the FTC years ago and cleared. No pyramid and I doubt if the people shouting pyramid even know what a real pyramid is.

Herbalife does offer a refund on unopened product and makes no inventory requirement. My understanding is that most distributors may buy some products for their own use and to fill orders for customers. Then additional sales are directed to their websites. Wrong again Crime Busters. It looks like you have been busted!

I was an Herbalife 'distributor' back in the late 70s I think. I wanted to get a little healthier and it seemed like the numbers worked out such that I soon will be a very wealthy man! But I came to realize that I could not bring myself to impose on my friends and family and I was not aggressive enough to get the pitch to strangers. So I was out the cost of some health food but with some better insight into myself.

But I think if I were to do it again, I would probably do just what you suggested - buy for my own and my customers use. But I still don't see where those customers are coming from :)

jmj858, JUST WANTED TO MAKE YOU CLEAR ON SOMETHING, Herbalife started in February 1980. Was not operating in the 1970s. My focus is on clearing the b.s. about Herbalife and I am long on HLF stock. I have used the Herbalife products. They are state of the art, high quality. Network marketing is a tough business and not for everyone.

@ Tony and JMJ... I've already tried clearing the BS on this forum ever since this (h)ackman started his market manipulation. With 18 years in Herbalife, I know few things about our business. And I've learned a few things too. Like don't waste your time trying to show Crime, willy, and a few others anything. It is a waste of time. Hopefully, I've told you soon enough before you waste an hour in front of the computer interacting with somebody that has no ears and an agenda....

He has no argument jmj858. He is merely regurgitating the Ackman b.s. Probably a short hoping to create a selloff. Also let's stop referring to Herbalife as HLF. The stock is HLF. The company is Herbalife. In 1985, Herbalife faced it's biggest challenge when it was investigated by the FDA, the FTC and there were senate sub committee hearing ins Washington, DC. The result? Herbalife came out clean.

In 2000, Herbalife faced another major challenge when their founder Mark Hughes passed away. Everyone was saying it's over. The guru is gone. Guess what happened? 99.999% of Herbalifers stayed put despite being solicited by other companies.

What Ackman and the shorts never realized is that Herbalife is more than a business, it is almost like a religion to these people. They are on a mission. And with Michael O. Johnson, they now have a real leader who has made a difference.

Herbalife is a 33 year old, $6 billion $$$ company currently licensed in 88 countries with millions and millions of happy customers who are enjoying life changing benefits.

Ackman is a shyster who needed to pop up his fund from negative to positive last year, instituted buying a ton of December puts by December 2012 and then organized his now famous (or is that infamous) meetinging coincidently just two days before December options expiration and refused to allow any Herbalife officials to attend and offer a point/counterpint argument. I think his intent was pretty clear and it had nothing to do with donating money to charities and being a great humanitarian. He did it to save his own butt and it backfired.

Yeah, I remember how infectious the excitement was in this company. It's almost like the excitement seen among our born again friends except Herbalife actually has a product. And that product can lead to a healthier life. So I just don't see the problem.

Madoff was investigated several times by the SEC. Madoff himself thought he was going to get caught if he ever came to the attention of the SEC. But we all know how that ended.

The SCE "claimed" they could find nothing wrong with Madoff's obvious Ponzi scheme. Were they that blind or was there corruption and/or nepotism or some other motivating factor preventing Madoff from being closed down and prosecuted.

These are facts you Herbalife supporters conveniently ignore as though the authorities would shut down every pyramid/Ponzi scheme BEFORE its demise.

Couple questions - Did the FTC & SEC fail to shut down these and other fraudulent schemes and are they currently, for whatever reasons, refusing to shut down many other obvious frauds and scams?

Tony Dee.... “Ackman is a shyster who needed to pop up his fund from negative to positive last year, instituted buying a ton of December puts by December 2012 …..”*****Ackman is no fool. If Herbalife was legit I'm sure he would know that and his short would have been, as you claim, only to make a profit.

He would also anticipate that a PROPER investigation of the company would show the "company" legit, and particularly with its positive profit picture consequently the shares would rebound. I have a grade ten education, even I can figure that out. It 's simple logic.

Being no fool Ackamn, playing that game would have “cashed in” for a quick and very profitable return. But he didn't because unfortunately he believed, as the Madoff whistle-blower, that the SEC would step in quickly, particularly in view of their past admitted errors and he would have quite legitimately earned his full short at zero and in the bargain have done society a favour.

That is what he got wrong; that and the fact there ARE so many “greater fools” out there apparently willing to bid the stock to oblivion.

Ackman thought his "thesis" and his self perceived clout would take Herbalife down. It did cause some reverberations. Ackman is a fool because he never completely examined Herbalife..

Ackman was engrossed with his self perceived nonsense, that he was certain that Herbalife would collapse. Not so.

Ackman did cash in because it is widely believed that he purchased December puts prior to his meeting which was just 2 days before options expiration in December. I know Ackman denies this. Sorry, I don't believe him.

Do you really think it was a mere coincidence that Ackman had his now infamous meeting hust 2 days before options expiration? And would not let any official Herbalife representative be there to offer a point/counterpoint discussion? Ackman wanted to take the stock down, profit from puts, profit from a paper gain on his short position and he knew Herbalife could not respond quick enough.

Yes there are greater fools out there and the biggest fool(s) is anyone who believes Ackman.

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread, like the guy who says he was in Herbalife in the 1970s. Herbalife started in 1980. Hello???

“amj858”…. “Madoff was cooking the books he submitted to the SEC. Are you suggesting Herbalife is cooking the books?”******No! At the moment that’s what you’re alluding to. But once again you are missing the point to create a diversion.

The fraud in Madoff’s “cooked books” was as easy to detect as a “skunk at a garden party” yet the SEC claimed to have missed the fraud after several investigations. Why is that? And as a result what credibility does the SEC & FTC display that anyone can have confidence in?

And anyone or corporation that would “hide behind” the distorted view that the authorities are on top of fraud therefore we must be legal should be highly suspect.

If you or any corporation would admit “the authorities have done a lousy when it comes to dealing with fraud but that alone can’t simply “paint” every corporation with the same brush”… THAT I would expect from an honest corporation.

But, again to doggedly attempt to hide behind authorities who time and time again refuse to shut down fraud, later admitting it is fraud when the scam comes apart at the seams, to me is a huge “Red Flag.”

So Herbalife 'at the moment' is not cooking the books. Wikipedia showed that Herbalife is not a Ponzi scheme and Tony Dee explained why it is not a pyramid. So it looks like the three of us have given Herbalife's business practices a clean bill of health.

So now the evil resides within the federal bureaucracy. What is the motivation of the SEC & FTC to permit fraud on the citizenry?

jmj858, You are right, Herbalife is not cooking the books. That is for sure. Herbalife has been investigated by the FTC previously and cleared. There is no Ponzi scheme. Herbalife is not a pyramid scheme. Ackman hoped to use that angle because he knows that is the publics perception of network marketing aka MLMs.

Ackman was more than a David vs Goliath. Ackman was a David who came to the fight without his slingshot and only a bagful of lies.

People who compare Herbalife to Enron are obviously showing their lack of intelligence and investment knowledge. But what else would you expect from some one who uses a handle called CrimeBusters and not even his real picture? My real name is Tony and Dee is short for my last name. My picture is shown. I have nothing to hide. What I have said here, I would say publicly, face to face or to anyone on the phone. I don't hide behind a handle.

CrimeBusters is obviously engrossed in Ackmans b.s. and can't sort the facts from the bull. Wait until earnings on Monday!

I wish people would stop comparing Madoff, Enron and WorldCom to Herbalife. Those guys were crooks. They cooked the books for sure. It took time to take them down and here is the kicker, once they were investigated, they went down fast.

Herbalife has been completely investigated as far back as 1985. They were investigated by the FDA, FTC, ATTORNEY GENERALS across multiple states. There was a senate sub committee hearing in Washington,, DC back in 1985. Herbalife was completely dissected by multiple governments and that was nearly 30 years ago! And Herbalife was cleared.

Ackman is merely trying to regurgitate old junk. How many times does Herbalife have to prove that they are legit?

Now take a look at Ackman and his agenda on Herbalife, why he really did this and examine his reputation on Wall Street. I assure you, he is no saint. It is time to move on. Ackman lost this incredible, reckless gamble and is now paying for it.

If Tony Dee is your real name, I appreciate that. I personally do not like exchanging views with individuals who hide behind anonymity particularly when they engage in personal attacks. It is good to hear from anonymous individuals simply relating stories, facts and opinions who otherwise might feel intimidated to speak out publicly, but when it comes to personal condemnation or outright attacks, I agree individuals should not hide behind pseudonyms.

But wow, few corrections here. I sign my name David Thornton; two n’s not Thorton. Although I have misspelled it myself on a couple occasions, but I don’t think so on this forum. On one cheque I am aware of…. And my organization is CrimeBustersNow – not CrimeBusters.

And where, Tony Dee did you get idea that that the picture posted is not a picture of me????

Now, I also wrote “If you or any corporation would admit “the authorities have done a lousy [job] when it comes to dealing with fraud but that alone can’t simply “paint” every corporation with the same brush”… THAT I would expect from an “honest corporation.”

In one of your postings you made the incredible remark…. “The FTC does act quickly on corrupt companies.”

If you believe 10, 20, 30, 40 years is “quick,” such as Madoff, FHTM, etc, etc, we certainly have a massive difference of opinion on the term “QUICK.” Four month as in the U.K. re: TTI is really quick!

In one of your other postings, Tony Dee you wrote: “….Network marketing is a tough business and not for everyone.” That is not what potential victims and those who sign up are led to believe at frenzied, “Christian, religious type, revival meetings.”

In another posting, Tony Dee, you wrote…. “People lost their homes with a $26 starter kit??? The b.s. continues.”

How do you know that’s b.s. I investigated that fraud myself since 2004: Informed Interpol, Scotland Yard, Manchester Police and London U.K. Metropolitan Police. As I say, THEY shut him down in about 4 months.

I personally answered calls and investigated individuals who lost their homes. Many experienced conflicts ending in divorce over this character, including a cop and his wife when she saw through the scam and amid threats of reprisals wanted nothing to do with it.

She informed her cop husband that she had incriminating evidence in a bank safe deposit box if anything should happen to her. And again, there were Indian immigrants who lost their homes and more than $200,000. That’s a provable reality. In fact there is currently a Class Action” in progress, and that is the perpetrator arrested and prosecuted for perpetrating a pyramid scheme having carried on for fifteen years “unmolested” under police protection until we crossed paths.

You also wrote…. “Ackman did cash in because it is widely believed that he purchased December puts prior to his meeting which was just 2 days before options expiration in December. I know Ackman denies this. Sorry, I don't believe him.”*****Ambiguity there, as I read it in your post…. “Ackman did cash in …. Followed by “…it is widely believed” ..... and "I don't believe him" suggesting no proof.

Be that as it may, if it turns out that Ackman did; then I have to admit my assertions as to WHY he did not “grab the big bucks” at the beginning when he would know in the end he would lose, would not necessarily hold up. However… although it would then leave his motives questionable, it would not, necessarily, impugn them simply because he protected and/or profited on his short.

And in conclusion, like some others have noted in their experiences, my investigation and conclusions of Herbalife are my own. I have been chasing and commenting on pyramid/Ponzi schemes for 9 years before I even heard of Bill Ackman!

"And in conclusion, like some others have noted in their experiences, my investigation and conclusions of Herbalife are my own. I have been chasing and commenting on pyramid/Ponzi schemes for 9 years before I even heard of Bill Ackman!

Certainly hope this sets a few things straight."

You've cleared up a few things for me...but one thing is still a little ambiguous. Have you received any payments from Ackman or any of his associates to help drag Herbalife through the mud? Do you hold any position that would benefit from lower prices in HLF stock?

I ask this because you seem business savvy with what appears to be a passionate concern for the financial well-being of trusting investors, and yet you have conducted an unfair witch-hunt against a legitimate, previously exonerated, well-respected company.

I have enjoyed our discussions and look forward to you setting the record straight regarding your motivations for going after Herbalife.

Ok David, I do not deny that pyramids exist. As long as there are greedy people and suckers looking for easy money, there will be pyramids, schemes and scams. My point is that Herbalife is not one of them.

The companies I mentioned were taken down in two years and were uncovered as pyramid schemes. Yes, the FTC works fast.

Herbalife has no inventory requirement. I checked. Herbalife will buy back any unopened inventory that distributors may buy, whether it is a few $$$$, a few hundred or more. I have examined Herbalife's marketing material, they do not front load as other companies do.

Another point, there are top level distributors in Herbalife who have been with Herbalife for over 30 years and were passed over by new distributors joining in the 90's and 2000. If Herbalife were truly a pyramid, this would be impossible. Those at the top would stay at the top.

And once again, Ackman lied. He had and still does not have any basis for his thesis. He is pushing for the FTC to investigate Herbaliefe yet again solely to try to save his short position. But once again, the FTC has already investigated Herbalife. Another investigation is just a waste of time and money and seriously, what knowledgeable individual can believe Ackman?

I appreciate your comments and wish you continued success at the real pyramid and Ponzi schemes out there. However, I suggest you move on from Herbalife.

John Jacobsen: …. “"And in conclusion, like some others have noted in their experiences, my investigation and conclusions of Herbalife are my own. I have been chasing and commenting on pyramid/Ponzi schemes for 9 years before I even heard of Bill Ackman!

Certainly hope this sets a few things straight."

You've cleared up a few things for me...but one thing is still a little ambiguous. Have you received any payments from Ackman or any of his associates to help drag Herbalife through the mud? Do you hold any position that would benefit from lower prices in HLF stock?

I ask this because you seem business savvy with what appears to be a passionate concern for the financial well-being of trusting investors, and yet you have conducted an unfair witch-hunt against a legitimate, previously exonerated, well-respected company.

I have enjoyed our discussions and look forward to you setting the record straight regarding your motivations for going after Herbalife.”*******Thanks for the direct query John. And I appreciate your thoughtful comment when you say….

“I ask this because you seem business savvy with what appears to be a passionate concern for the financial well-being of trusting investors, and yet you have conducted an unfair witch-hunt against a legitimate, previously exonerated, well-respected company.”

I can tell you truthfully I receive nothing from Ackman or anyone for my "attacks" on Herbalife. My own website was maliciously dismantled. I do not have the skills, the time or the money right now to try to repair it. A person with limited time contacted me from the U.S. and bro bono was able to set up a page. That is as far as it has gone.

I solicit donations and been falsely accused of “living off them.” But have received only $1000 in the eight years since my organization was first created, and nothing over the last 4 years or so, or I would disclose that…. in general if I receive a donation for the organization and am attacking many schemes, and if Herbalife is one of them, then it could be truthfully said my organization receives money to "attack" (I call it expose) Herbalife.

But such is not the case. And except for the $1000 the enormous time and money over the last decade to do what I have done I have borne on my own.

And I do not hold any position that I would benefit from personally or otherwise if HLF stocks tank. However, convinced HLF stocks would go up sharply in the short term I was contemplating taking the couple thousand I have left, using my credit card for the rest and buying, at the time, about 400 shares long, to make a profit to continue my work. But I could not come to terms if that would be ethical, certainly wouldn't be illegal particularly if I disclosed how much and why. But I didn't invest. The other thing is, as I have warned others…. If the FTC were to close HLF down I would also lose, but the chances, as you have seen would have be remote in the last few months. But the odds right now I believe are strongly increasing with calls from more politicians and other of credibility, position and power to investigate Herbalife.

I am doing this, John, because I am honestly and absolutely convinced, particularly on my past experiences spotting fraud where authorities, bankers, BBB and others were adamant it did not exist, that I am also right this time.

My dilemma has always been… did these individuals and the likes of whole professionally trained investigative police fraud units, government agencies, including the Ontario SEC etc, private agencies like the BBB and even the media with their resources really miss what I saw so clearly, particularly when I explained it all to them in detail: Or is there something else going on?

As I see it, It can only be arrogance, incompetence, malice, corruption or a combination; How else could these schemes go on for years in the open and be unrecognized; then when explained; ignored? That is mind-boggling.

And I could not, and would not, knowing and deliberately be involved in a “witch hunt.” I have personally been a target of that.

I think I do. Back in the late 70s I think, I was involved in urban renewal efforts trying to arrange financing for labor-intensive companies to relocate into blighted areas. I was somewhat successful at putting deals together but there were a few that took some major arm-twisting to get done. As it turns out, the arm-twisting deals had significantly higher rates of failure than the ones the professional lenders were comfortable with.

So from my personal experience, I tend to give deference to professionals and have confidence that our regulatory agencies are motivated to their best for us. I also learned that my assessment of situations is not always right and learned to just do the best I can but not get too emotionally involved in any one deal.

My involvement with Herbalife back in the 80s ended in a bust. But it was me that was the culprit, not Herbalife. I just wasn't cut out to do well in this type of business. (I still can't believe I was in my 30s before I gained sufficient insight into my abilities, or lack thereof.) But I noticed that your website states: "All MLM is fraud". Considering all the people who benefit from Herbalife's existence, I think you need to re-think that statement.

My only suggestion is that you focus your attention more on the hundreds of small localized Ponzi schemes. Maybe you could provide a resource for investors who may be concerned that they are involved in one. I'm sure you would be able to determine whether it is or not with just a few questions like 'what rate of return are you getting?'. My mother got caught up in one where the scammer was a 'good Christian man'. She might have listened to you instead of her good-for-nothing son :)

But I wish you the best. I do believe that your heart is in the right place. Good luck to you.

Right on John. Isn't it amazing how some people will call quality companies like Herbalife "Get Rich Quick Schemes" and then go out and buy a lottery ticket looking for easy wealth without work? MLM is not for everyone. It is like any other business. It takes work. Those who work, do well. Those who do not, fail. I was talking to some MLMers the other day, some from Herbalife and some from other companies. They all say the same thing, people get in and don't want to work or train. Isn't it funny that no other industry has created as many millionaires as Network Marketing (http://bit.ly/TutGWj) but people think they can succeed without training? The same people go to school, go to college, take training at their companies for years but won't even train for a week or two in MLM! Strange!

Also, I wasn't picking on you when I disclosed the info about Herbalife not starting until February 1980.

I am long on HLF as well as other MLM publicly traded companies. I believe in this industry. Like you John, I tried it too and did not set any records. I do like trading their stocks though and it bothers me to see irresponsible people make wild statements like "all MLMs are fraud" and other such nonsense.

With Herbalife, I have and still do use their products. They are excellent.

Anyway, earnings on Monday, Ackman is deep over his head in debt with this trade and I am sure the facts will come out and expose Ackman as a fraud not to mention a big loser on his reckless short bet on HLF.

I'm not as convinced that Ackman is a fraud...but there is little question in my mind that he will be shown to be a big loser on his HLF bet. And since I'm not unlike most people who enjoy a good train wreck, it's going to be fun watching him squirm as the price continues up.

Tony Dee: Ok David, I do not deny that pyramids exist. As long as there are greedy people and suckers looking for easy money, there will be pyramids, schemes and scams. My point is that Herbalife is not one of them.

The companies I mentioned were taken down in two years and were uncovered as pyramid schemes. Yes, the FTC works fast.

Herbalife has no inventory requirement. I checked. Herbalife will buy back any unopened inventory that distributors may buy, whether it is a few $$$$, a few hundred or more. I have examined Herbalife's marketing material, they do not front load as other companies do.

Another point, there are top level distributors in Herbalife who have been with Herbalife for over 30 years and were passed over by new distributors joining in the 90's and 2000. If Herbalife were truly a pyramid, this would be impossible. Those at the top would stay at the top.

And once again, Ackman lied. He had and still does not have any basis for his thesis. He is pushing for the FTC to investigate Herbaliefe yet again solely to try to save his short position. But once again, the FTC has already investigated Herbalife. Another investigation is just a waste of time and money and seriously, what knowledgeable individual can believe Ackman?

I appreciate your comments and wish you continued success at the real pyramid and Ponzi schemes out there. However, I suggest you move on from Herbalife.*******What I can tell you Tony is what I have already stated to John…. I am “attacking” (exposing) Hebalife because I am honestly and absolutely convinced, particularly on my past experiences spotting fraud where authorities, bankers, BBB and others were adamant it did not exist, that I am also right this time.

And I appreciate from all you have laid out, Tony, your stance in the matter, if that is how you truly perceive the “whole” picture…. I see it differently. So obviously I don’t believe Ackman lied: His thesis in my view; is correct.

Now, I don’t know from your facts when you say “taken down” whether these companies you refer to were prosecuted in two years or it took two years to close their operations. The IMF after the collapse of Albania’s economy from pyramid/Ponzi schemes said this….

“The investigation should be swift. If a company is found to be operating a pyramid scheme, it should be closed immediately. Allowing schemes to continue will result only in more inflows of deposits and greater losses. Governments can close these companies for a variety of legal reasons: the companies may be taking unlicensed deposits or operating businesses without licenses; they may be evading taxes; or they may be liable for prosecution for straightforward fraud. If there is a strong presumption that companies are pyramid schemes, the government should freeze and, if necessary, seize their assets during the investigation. Once an investigation of a pyramid scheme has begun, the operators will try to steal as much of the assets as possible before the truth comes out. This cannot be entirely prevented, but freezing any assets held in the formal financial sector and seizing other assets that can be easily disposed of may save depositors a great deal of money…..Finally, the IMF and the World Bank should be aware of the possibilities of pyramid schemes emerging when the conditions for their growth are present and should be vigilant in warning governments about them. When they can, the IMF and the World Bank should insist on action.Note: This article is based on Christopher Jarvis, 1999, “The Rise and Fall of the Pyramid Schemes in Albania,” IMF Working Paper 99/98 (InternationalMonetary Fund: Washington).http://bit.ly/14fRazr

You see, I am simply following the recommendations in this report and trying to “fill in” since authorities seem to be “tuned out” ignoring the story of Albania and ignoring the recommendations and lessons contained therein.

One more time David, the FTC has already investigated Herbalife. The FDA investigated Herbalife. They found no wrong doing. I am not sure where you find the pyramid in Herbalife. I hope your motivations are honest, they seem to be. And you are not alone. The general consenus of many people regarding network marketing companies is they are pyramids. Unfortunately their concept is false.

Amway was taken apart in t he 1970s and cleared by the FTC in 1979. But talk to most people and all they remember is the allegations that Amway was claimed to be a pyramid. A large part of the fault is with the media. When charges are made, it makes front page news. 60 minutes will spend an entire hour on it. CNN will take 16 weeks covering it. But when charges are dropped, you hear nothing.

Ackman lied to try to save his fund. There is no denying this. A large amount of December puts were being purchased up until early December. As I stated before, Ackman had his now infamous meeting just two days before December options expiration. A little too convenient I think. And all of this took place just before the end of 2012 so Ackman could take his fund from bleeding red to positive to appease investors. I am sure Ackman is very close to covering his short position and his efforts are solely a last ditch effort to try to cash in on his reckless bet.

Ackman also did a horrible job talking about Herbalife nutrition clubs. None of the clubs I attended look even remotely like this.

As for the marketing plan, once again, it has been examined. No pyramid. No inventory requirements.

You are surely making a strong effort, I only wonder that when this is over and Ackman is exposed as a fraud, will you continue or will you apologize to HLF longs and Herbalife people for being sincerely wrong???

Tony Dee: …”You are surely making a strong effort, I only wonder that when this is over and Ackman is exposed as a fraud, will you continue or will you apologize to HLF longs and Herbalife people for being sincerely wrong???”****I see you were at it very early this morning Tony. I appreciate that too.

Interestingly, this same question was put to me in the other schemes I exposed. Now, if I am convinced, through a proper investigation that I am incorrect in my assertions against Herbalife, of course I would apologize: But as the Japanese point out…. “Sorry, No Cure.”

The question I have is this. Are my attacks against Herbalife; my attacks alone, interfering with Herbalife’s operation or costing Herbalife or any of its distributors any financial distress including if you or Herbalife execs, or shareholders believe my writing are influencing others and thereby causing Herbalife or any of its distributors any financial distress or damage to their reputations?

The operators of TTI-BIM and PKI arrested for pyramid/Ponzi fraud complained that I was costing THEM a million dollars a week with my attacks against their “corporations” schemes and their participants complained of massive individual losses in the thousands and even millions. They attributed their difficulties mainly to me; PKI dubbing me the "Ringleader “of the Fear Mongers”. With Herbalife, I think those accolades belong to others, though I would not “duck” the responsibility that goes with the title if anyone were to hang it on me.

But no one, by law, as I understand law, is legally entitled to do that to a legitimate enterprise. That is why I question; with Herbalife being such a massive world enterprise if my attacks against Herbalife are really causing Herbalife and its distributors any financial distress, even in potential losses?

"jmj858": "My only suggestion is that you focus your attention more on the hundreds of small localized Ponzi schemes. Maybe you could provide a resource for investors who may be concerned that they are involved in one. I'm sure you would be able to determine whether it is or not with just a few questions like 'what rate of return are you getting?’ My mother got caught up in one where the scammer was a 'good Christian man'. She might have listened to you instead of her good-for-nothing son :)

But I wish you the best. I do believe that your heart is in the right place. Good luck to you."******Thanks John. Interesting you should mention the Christian connection. There are so many pyramid/Ponzi schemes throughout the Christian community I was absolutely shocked and amazed when I made the discovery. And many, like Wesley Campbell simply don’t give up. The story in the following link includes none other than Christian televangelist Benny Hinn.

I was unaware these schemes existed ten years ago when the WEW pyramid ravished our small town of 6000.In my investigation I found that the TTI-BIM scam was riddled with pastors one of whom is Wesley Campbell already convicted in a Ponzi scheme.

The Canadian media up here refuse to tell the story of these people in relation to the TTI-BIM fraud: Why is anyone’s guess, but the scammer’s father, now retired, was an active police officer when his son started this scam. They recruited retired and active RCMP coast to coast and police on down, government personnel of the CRA (the branch of government charged with investigating pyramid/Ponzi schemes) politicians, accountant’s etc.

Now, I see fraud “written all over” Herbalife’s operation. More than just a “gut instinct,” but if I go with my gut I have never been proven wrong with respect to any scheme I have “called out” as fraudulent.

There are too many victims and potential victims to simply do nothing, besides which consider Albania; the business community banks, police authorities, politicians etc, involved. One third of the population was smart enough to avoid the pyramid schemes or perhaps many simply without the capital to get involved: They nonetheless suffered the consequences of a destroyed economy along with those responsible for the destruction.

Individuals will tell me with a great deal of indignation, I don’t care; I would never get involved in these schemes. Most will say why should I do anything about it?.... If these people are stupid enough to get defrauded that is their own fault (it now includes not only unwitting university, college and high school student, but deplorably, 14 year--olds in elementary school).

I explain that when the economy collapses due to these schemes as in Albania, they will suffer the same consequences along with those responsible for the chaos. The odd person will think about that and change their thinking sometimes adding their support; unfortunately, not many. Most simply cannot “wrap their minds around” the significance. But then neither it seems, can the leaders of our countries who should be a lot smarter.

It could be said “The road to ruin is paved with pyramid/Ponzi schemes!”

"CrimeBustersNow": "There are so many pyramid/Ponzi schemes throughout the Christian community I was absolutely shocked and amazed when I made the discovery."

If I weren't beholden to a conscience and I wanted to put together a good sized bankroll quick, that's where I would go. You've got a captive audience of emotionally gullible people, all you really have to do is add a "Thank you Jesus" after every 5 or 6 comments and they'll beg you to relieve them of their cash.

There is no question that there are small, unethical and illegal companies trying to masquerade themselves as being a legitmate mlm. People need to be made aware of which is good and which is bad. Herbalife has passed the test of time and will be around for a long time to come.

maybe, just maybe :) most of the people underestimate 'distributors' like me.

i am responsible for 2400 volume points (march-july). cca 1200 for me, cca 1200 for my family and friends. zero storage. i repeat, it is not my intention to earn money :) i just spread a word about benefits of using herbalife science to human body.talking about benefits to human body, i am free to repeat a pictures of me with 134 and with 94 kilos http://bit.ly/1dGW5fq

i sent this picture to john hempton, and this is his reply :)"The most convincing distributors I have seen are the ones that have lost 20 plus kilos and kept it of. Religious $HLF zealots."that's the point. i do not force people to eat herbalife, i do not preach, i do not persuade, i do nothing :) but many people asked me what to do...

some days in access point in zagreb, croatia, you must wait 15-30 minutes to get products. some days it is pretty crowded... because people like me, who does not want to sell, but...