Jenson vs Lewis - 2012 Scorecard - Part III

You could be right, we'll never know, but I'm inclined to believe no refuelling flattered Jenson. Because a race back then was basically ~60 quali laps, and we know the scorecard between JB and Lewis in quali this year.

Once again but for another poster explain why trulli couldnt maintain race pace then if it was just quali laps.Being quick in quali does not mean you have the same pace in the race, trulli is a great example of that.

Yep, I noticed during the last GP that both Hamiltons and Vettels laptimes were bouncing up and down by around 5 tenths of a second each lap while Buttons were varying by just a tenth.

The data doesn't support that particular memory I'm afraid. Both McLaren drivers had runs of three laps or so within a few tenths of the same time, which on a long street circuit is excellent driving from both of them. LH didn't "bounce around" by half a second a lap unless you count the last few laps and I don't know for how long he'd had gearbox issues before it blew on him. Monza showed the same pattern - both drivers putting in consistent laps.

But hey, never mind. There's still the "Lewis the gearbox wrecker" thing to go at. I mean, the boxes are electronically controlled by a paddle and it'd be obvious to the team if one driver were shifting too late or early and putting more strain on the things than needed, but let's run with that one.

A lot of people forget one of the reasons why Button hasn't been slaughtered from 2010 on;

the refuelling.

When Heikki was Lewis' teammate, they were still driving qualifying laps, barely looking after their tires at all. Tires were put under much less pressure (less weight), and the Bridgestones had less wear too. Sure.. you could save your tire a bit, but it never gave you such an advantage as now. If Button would have been Hamilton's teammate back then, the 0,4 qualifying difference would be there in every single race lap. The only reason Button can keep Hamilton in his sight more or less now (only when the car is to his liking...), is the current way of Formula 1. Basically, Hamilton is racing Button on his turf now. Funnily enough, he is still beating him.

Regardless of the driver, they should look at the car. It is not conducive for development to have a driver that can 'drive around the issues'.

For how many years did the McLaren take the kerbs on 3 wheels? It used to be all over the place. What did McLaren do about the problem? Lewis mentioned the problem during an interview earlier this year. He thought it was a joke. He would have learned how to drive around the problem, 'cos McLaren were not going to fix it.

Come on now, you can't seriously think Rinehart's original argument is bulletproof?

It was correct in that JB won the last WDC of the refuelling era. It's a fair counter to the position that no refuelling has kept LH and JB close together (and the assumption that tyre management wasn't as essential then can be countered by the struggles Heikki had with tyres).

It's quite frankly laughable that people think Lewis' driving was responsible for his gear box failure. He's one of the most gifted drivers the sport has ever seen, he knows how to look after a gear box...us fans however would wreck one in 10 seconds.

For how many years did the McLaren take the kerbs on 3 wheels? It used to be all over the place. What did McLaren do about the problem? Lewis mentioned the problem during an interview earlier this year. He thought it was a joke. He would have learned how to drive around the problem, 'cos McLaren were not going to fix it.

Not sure what you are meaning here. A car that can take kerbs whilst keeping 3 wheels on the circuit is a good thing.

No. Had DDD been outlawed, Brawn GP would not have been as strong and thus Jenson could not have racked up 6 wins in the first half of the season. And to be honest, Jenson's driving in the second half was very inconsistent and erratic.

He still won, props to him, but IMO, his 2010 and 2011 seasons were as good, if not better. Just like Hamilton, his WDC year was not his finest year.

It's quite frankly laughable that people think Lewis' driving was responsible for his gear box failure. He's one of the most gifted drivers the sport has ever seen, he knows how to look after a gear box...us fans however would wreck one in 10 seconds.

McLaren has said Lewis' driving had nothing to do with it. Unless they were lying...

For how many years did the McLaren take the kerbs on 3 wheels? It used to be all over the place. What did McLaren do about the problem? Lewis mentioned the problem during an interview earlier this year. He thought it was a joke. He would have learned how to drive around the problem, 'cos McLaren were not going to fix it.

Huh ! Do u mean how Mclaren set the cars up stiffly sprung aka suspension.

No. Had DDD been outlawed, Brawn GP would not have been as strong and thus Jenson could not have racked up 6 wins in the first half of the season. And to be honest, Jenson's driving in the second half was very inconsistent and erratic.

He still won, props to him, but IMO, his 2010 and 2011 seasons were as good, if not better. Just like Hamilton, his WDC year was not his finest year.

Well yeah, "just like" i.e not an anomaly. Drivers winning with a car advantage is not any more of an anomaly than a driver winning when the (before and after that year) usually strongest opponents underperform or sit in crap cars. It also doesn't matter from a drivers perspective if a car advantage comes in the form of a trick device or just by having the fastest convetional car. If anything, the stats say Hamilton made harder work of his title than Button of his.

Well considering Hamilton has challenged for the title in 07, 08, 10 and 12, the answer would be; no, 2008 was not an anomaly. How often has Button? Once; 2009. In 2010 and 2012 he had the car to challenge, but never did.

I think the fuel issue is much more of a problem to Jenson than it is to Lewis.

Jenson needs a balanced car more than Lewis seems to, and its obviously much more difficult to get a good balance with different fuel loads. If Jenson has a problem in quali, it's probably because he can't set the car up with a reasonable balance on quali fuel without then having a problem on high fuel.

If there was still refuelling, and quali was on race fuel load as before, I think Jenson would be matching Lewis in quali as well as in the race.

True, Jenson likes a balanced car, but in reality it does not really matter for large stages of the race (unless you get the balance so wrong that you destroy your tires (Jenson in Canada). They are hardly pushing. Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires. Basically, they are not pushing for large parts of the race. They are driving around at 85-90%. It's harder to make a difference this way.

Pre 2010, they were driving Qualifying laps all race long. That's a huge difference in the approach of the race.

Absolute rubbish, please explain how button was quicker than rubens in race pace then. Also explain why heikki was slower in the race than lewis.Being 2 tenths quicker in quali does not mean you are going to be quicker in the race by the same marginUtter rubbishI'll wait for your response, you are going to struggle BTW

Rubens actually got consistently faster than Button in the later stages of 2009. Once he got on top of his braking issues, he was a good match for Button, as well in qualifying as in the race. Button did a very solid job in the first half of the season, when he had a car advantage. As soon as the car became equal to the other cars, like RB en Macca, he couldn't do much more.

Heikki.... well, he was a good match for Lewis in qualifying every now and then, but yes, he didn't have the racepace. Not all good qualifiers have racepace. That's definitely true. But Vettel, Hamilton and also Alonso have a pretty good qualifying pace ánd a racepace that matches it. Button has a decent racepace compared to his Q pace. So perhaps the deficit wouldn't be 0,4, but would be 0,2 on average. Remember, 60 Q laps every race, against a guy with a solid q and racepace. Button who is intrinsically slower than Hamilton, would have been destroyed.

True, Jenson likes a balanced car, but in reality it does not really matter for large stages of the race (unless you get the balance so wrong that you destroy your tires (Jenson in Canada). They are hardly pushing. Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires. Basically, they are not pushing for large parts of the race. They are driving around at 85-90%. It's harder to make a difference this way.

Pre 2010, they were driving Qualifying laps all race long. That's a huge difference in the approach of the race.

All gearbox problems by definition are "technical faults". All gearboxes are designed down to a minimum weight and have a limit life.

If previous identifiable structural or manufacturing problems had been found before like this one then it would not have been repeated.

In the end Jenson managed to get through to the end of the race without with the same problem appears to indicate that driving styles do matter. If they attempt to duplicate the opening scene of the "Dukes of Hazard" or hit the wall its isn't exactly going to help the matter.

not true, especially not in this case... JB's gearbox was new, he didnt finish in Monza so they changed it for Singapore while LH's gearbox had done the Monza weekend.

This is just garbage scraping to try to find some JB advantage...sht we've been dealing with for the past 3 years... no more

In 2010 Lewis and Mark had contact in during the Singapore Grand Prix as was mentioned earlier, McLaren should have had a free gearbox change for Suzuka, but Lewis received a 5 place grid penalty for having to change his gearbox. So either McLaren thought there wasn't a problem with the one used in Singapore, only to discover very late that it needed to be changed or they changed it any as a precaution, yet later discovered the new box was faulty. Then during the race with a new gearbox that had only done half a race distance, it began to fail. So in my opinion that is two gearbox issues that can't be attributed to Hamilton being too aggressive.

True, and he came back really well at the end of the first stint in Singapore. I think he was cleverly staying out of dirty air, protecting his tyres and his pace after 13/14 laps amazed me. If that was the case it was very good race/stint management

Except he could not catch Vettel when needed to, nor could he at the end of the race

Rubens actually got consistently faster than Button in the later stages of 2009. Once he got on top of his braking issues, he was a good match for Button, as well in qualifying as in the race. Button did a very solid job in the first half of the season, when he had a car advantage. As soon as the car became equal to the other cars, like RB en Macca, he couldn't do much more.

Heikki.... well, he was a good match for Lewis in qualifying every now and then, but yes, he didn't have the racepace. Not all good qualifiers have racepace. That's definitely true. But Vettel, Hamilton and also Alonso have a pretty good qualifying pace ánd a racepace that matches it. Button has a decent racepace compared to his Q pace. So perhaps the deficit wouldn't be 0,4, but would be 0,2 on average. Remember, 60 Q laps every race, against a guy with a solid q and racepace. Button who is intrinsically slower than Hamilton, would have been destroyed.

Race pace no he didnt. Buttons strength is his race pace he can put extremely consistent times in and whats this 4 tenths, on a day where he is absolutely happy with the balance the gap is usually 1 or 2 tenths.

I think the fuel issue is much more of a problem to Jenson than it is to Lewis.

Jenson needs a balanced car more than Lewis seems to, and its obviously much more difficult to get a good balance with different fuel loads. If Jenson has a problem in quali, it's probably because he can't set the car up with a reasonable balance on quali fuel without then having a problem on high fuel.

If there was still refuelling, and quali was on race fuel load as before, I think Jenson would be matching Lewis in quali as well as in the race.

haha thats such a good point i remember there being moments in 2009, in q1 and q2 jenson would be struggling but when fuel was put in the car balance would improve.He probably would be closer.

Race pace no he didnt. Buttons strength is his race pace he can put extremely consistent times in and whats this 4 tenths, on a day where he is absolutely happy with the balance the gap is usually 1 or 2 tenths.

But that happens like maybe 3-4x out of 20 odd races.......on the average he never seems to be able to find the balance

Race pace no he didnt. Buttons strength is his race pace he can put extremely consistent times in and whats this 4 tenths, on a day where he is absolutely happy with the balance the gap is usually 1 or 2 tenths.

haha thats such a good point i remember there being moments in 2009, in q1 and q2 jenson would be struggling but when fuel was put in the car balance would improve.He probably would be closer.

that's just a general JB syndrome of putting his best lap together at the last minute.

We've seen the same thing 2010 to 2012, difference is here it only reduces the deficit to LH, not outqualify... e.g. the 1 sec advantage reduced to 6 tenth in the last race.

If races were sprint where you could lean on the tire abit more similar to qualy, I have little doubt LH's qualy advantage would often show up on race day.

Already in close observation of live timing in the past years, you could see that the few times LH was pushing in the race...his strongest sectors in qualy were his strongest sectors in the race (relative to JB).

Nevertheless, JB is a pretty damn strong driver and a hunch is telling me Perez will probably be exposed a few times next year.

that's just a general JB syndrome of putting his best lap together at the last minute.

We've seen the same thing 2010 to 2012, difference is here it only reduces the deficit to LH, not outqualify... e.g. the 1 sec advantage reduced to 6 tenth in the last race.

If races were sprint where you could lean on the tire abit more similar to qualy, I have little doubt LH's qualy advantage would often show up on race day.

Already in close observation of live timing in the past years, you could see that the few times LH was pushing in the race...his strongest sectors in qualy were his strongest sectors in the race (relative to JB).

Nevertheless, JB is a pretty damn strong driver and a hunch is telling me Perez will probably be exposed a few times next year.

No it was the fuel being put in the car creating a better rear balance. Here is an example this is a quote from button st the 2009 spain press conference:Qualifying was a bit of a strange one because in q2 i couldnt get anywhere near ruben's times. My laps werent bad. I had a bit of rear movment which is never my favourite, but when we put fuel on board, the car felt as it had done this morning, so i was much happier with the balance

And your point about the sectors in races, thats not really strong evidence is it, if it even exists.

Early 2010: JB will be destroyedEnd 2010: "JB was destroyed" which is not quite the caseEarly 2011: JB was lucky last year blah blah, LH lost his RE Blah Blah ect ad nausium.End 2011: LH has had his worst season ever, that's the only reason blah blah, Martin Whitmarsh Blah BlahEarly 2012: LH will show him this year.Now: LH would have been much further ahead if it wasn't for all of F1 ganging up on him.

The future...

End 2012

Option one: LH finishes substantially ahead of JB

That showed Em!! Ignoring the same possibility of the "worst season ever" effect.

True, Jenson likes a balanced car, but in reality it does not really matter for large stages of the race (unless you get the balance so wrong that you destroy your tires (Jenson in Canada). They are hardly pushing. Remember MS saying that F1 has become to boring from a drivers perspective. At Mercedes they were driving to a delta timing (much slower than the car can handle) to protect the tires. Basically, they are not pushing for large parts of the race. They are driving around at 85-90%. It's harder to make a difference this way.

Pre 2010, they were driving Qualifying laps all race long. That's a huge difference in the approach of the race.

The reason why they are hardly pushing is to protect the tyres. If the car is balanced, tyre degradation will be less, so the delta can be faster, they can push harder.

The balance is crucial during the race, that's why Jenson can't set the car up with a good balance in quali, because he needs a good balance to protect the tyres during the race.

Jenson never had a problem driving qualifying laps all race long. In late 2009, his only problem was that he couldn't qualify well. Even though he often had a severe tyre warming issue, which saw him weaving on the straights during the race, he was still much faster than Rubens in the race, all the time, except when he was trapped behind KERS-equipped cars.

But that happens like maybe 3-4x out of 20 odd races.......on the average he never seems to be able to find the balance

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.

Everyone, including you, know that the points are a misleading way of judging how good someone is. As shown perfectly by the last race.

How many times has Button challenged for the WDC since at McLaren? Keep in mind they had a car good enough to win a WDC twice, and Hamilton challenged in both those years.

And you would never do that would you!

I look at the bigger picture, not desperately holding on to the scoreboard as the be all and end all. I openly challenge people to look deeper than the surface, something Button never want to do... strange that.

What's the point of this thread then? Why not look at the scoreboard and be done with it?

Thats the thing that annoys me most about certain Button fans; they cherry pick a couple of weekends/events/circumstances that rarely happen and say 'look at what Button can do!', completely ignoring the fact he rarely does it.

They are the outliers, not the norms. Seems everyone but some Button fans understand this.

Wow, a response that consists of more than one line!!

Although, sadly, if Jenson wins are only 'outliers' (is that a word even) then you have to say broadly the same about Hamilton as he hasnt won that many more races during their time together.

You also seem to have completely forgotten the last half of 2011 when Button was the only man on the grid able to hold a candle to Vettel. So to say he rarely does it is a total farbrication and untrue. He may not be as capable of doing it as regularly as Lewis -but to say Button does it rarely while somehow convincing yourself Lewis turns it on every weekend is to kid yourself.