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HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST INFILTRATION AND
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(GARY, IND., AREA)
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
FEBRUARY 10 AND 11, 1958
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
(GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
23178 WASHINGTON : 1958
HARVARD CC LIEGE LISRARY
DEPOSiTED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House op Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
CLYDE DOYLE, California , DONALD L. JACKSON, California
EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
WILLIAM M. TUCK. Virginia ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Michigan
Richard Arens, Staff Director
CONTENTS
Page
Synopsis 1953
February 10, 1958: Testimony of —
John Lautner 1958
Edward Yellin 1974
Afternoon session:
Nicholas M. Busic 1989
Robert W. Kates 1997
Alfred James Samter 2000
Jack (Zack) Kretheotis 2005
Joseph E. LaFleur 2007
February 11, 1958: Testimony of —
Robert Lehrer 2027
Albert "Keg" Malis 2039
John Sargent - 2043
Lazo Rebraca 2048
Joseph W. Norrick 2050
Victor Malis 2056
Afternoon session:
Victor Malis (resumed) 2062
Chris Malis 2063
Walter Malis 2064
Willard Malis 2065
Joseph Gyurko, Jr 2069
Executive Testimony '
February 11, 1958:
Afternoon session:
Joseph Gvurko, Jr 2071
Chris Malis 2075
Walter Malis 2079
Index i
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
ni
i
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is PubHc Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
(ci) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary
remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as ic deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
*******
Rule XII
LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES
Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the jurisdic-
tion of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of
the Government.
V
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January o, 1957
*******
RuLii X
STANDING COMMITTERS
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress,
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
*******
Rule XI
POWEKS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary,
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.
SYNOPSIS
In Gar;^, Indiana, February 10 and 11, 1958, the Committee on
Un-American Activities continued its investigation of Communist
techniques and tactics of infiltration and the extent, character, and
objects of Communist Party propaganda activities in basic industry.
Fourteen witnesses testified in public hearings and three in executive
session.
The committee obtained significant information from John Laut-
ner, an active Communist Party member for more tlian 20 years
before his expulsion from the party in 1950. Mr. Lautner had held
many important positions of leadership, including section organizer
of the Communist Party in NeAv York City for a number of years,
district organizer of the Communist Party in West Virginia for
5 3'ears, member of the Nationality Commission of the Communist
Party, member of the National Review Commission of the Commu-
nist Party, and Cliairman of the Review Commission for the State
of New York. He testified that steel is one of the basic industries
on which the Communist Party must concentrate in its efforts to
win over the decisive section of the working class.
Describing tlie tactical maneuvers of the Communist Party in its
infiltration of labor unions, Mr. Lautner asserted that "colonizers"
were sent to Gary, Indiana, for the purpose of building the party m
the steel industry. He defined "a colonized Communist" as "one who
is a professional revolutionary, who has uprooted himself from his
home environment and carried out a party instruction, one who may
have had personal problems, family problems, but that was secondary.
The first was the problem of the party, and he submitted himself to
become a person who will solve for the party their problems and
became a colonized Communist to cany out Communist work in a
basic industry."
The witness told the committee of classes conducted by J. Peters, a
national functionary for the Communist Party, for colonizing mem-
bers of the Communist Party. They were composed of bright young
men from colleges and universities who were convinced "that a so-
called bourgeois education and diploma have no future; that there
is a better future for a bright and alert and, at the same time, loyal and
devoted young party person to go into basic industry and come up
with the grassroots and, in the course of a few years, become the leader
of a large segment of workers in basic industries." These young
men, he said, had more faith in the ultimate victory of communism
than in the survival of our own way of life.
Referring to his wide experience as a functionary in the Communist
Party and his observations since leaving the party, Mr. Lautner
testified that "the main slogan of the party is to get back into the
mainstream of labor because they are out of the mainstream now, and
the best way to get back into the mainstream of labor would he to
colonize capable Communist organizers in the basic industries and to
1953
1954 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
build fires under tlie existing leadersliip to create dissension in tlie
labor movement, cleavages around leadership, and to enhance the
party position along these lines until they can come back again into
power m segments of the American labor movement."
Following Mr. Lautner's testimony, Edward Yellin was confronted
with his application for employment wdth U. S. Steel, which con-
cealed information that he had attended the City College of New York
and the University of Michigan. When asked w^hether it is not a
fact that when he made application at IJ. S. Steel he was doing it
under the direction of the Communist Party, Yellin refused to answer.
He likewise refused to state whether or not it is true that colonization
by young men is a deep-seated Communist plan in basic industry.
Yellin refused to answer all questions relating to his place of resi-
dence prior to August 1957, his formal educational training, his
record of employment, his membership in the Communist Party at
the time of making his application for employment by U. S. Steel,
and his membersliip in the Communist Party at other times, includ-
ing the time of the taking of his testimony. In refusing to answer,
the witness did not rely on the self-incrimination clause of the fifth
amendment, but asserted a claim that he was not required to answer
by reason of the provisions of the first amendment.
A third witness, Robert Lehrer, a graduate of Rutgers University
and an employee in the steel industry in Gary, refused to answer ques-
tions relating to the colonization of the steel industry in Gary by
bright young men, relaying upon the first amendment as the ground for
liis refusal to answer. He likewise refused to answer any questions re-
lating to his educational training, his record of employment, Commu-
nist Party activities within basic industry at Gary, and his own Com-
munist Party affiliations. He also refused to state whether or not he
had conceiiled facts relating to his educational training in making
application for employment by Carnegie Steel.
Both Yellin and Lehrer w^ere identified as leaders in Communist
Party activities in Gary by Joseph E. LaFleur, who had been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, LaFleur, in the course of his testimony, identified 32
persons as having been known to him as members of the Communist
Party in Gary, 12 of whom were heard as witnesses during the hear-
ings. Of these, 8 refused to answer material questions relating to
Communist Party activities within the steel industry, rehnng upon
either the fifth amendment or the first amendment as grounds foi-
their refusal to answer, and 2 admitted former Communist Party
membership. The witnesses Willard ISIalis and Lazo Rebraca denied
that they had ever been members of the Communist Party.
The testimony disclosed a pattern of colonization of the steel indus-
try by young men with excellent training and education who came
into the area from New York City and elsewhere. It was apparent
that a hard core of the Communist Party is actively engaged in the
rehabilitation of the Commmiist Party in the steel industry in Gary.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST INFILTRATION AND
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(Gary, Iiid., Area)
MONDAY, FEBRUABY 10, 1958
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Gary^ Ind.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in the council chamber, Municipal Build-
ing, Gary, Ind., Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman of the committee)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of
Pennsylvania, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Oliio.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and Ray-
mond T. Collins, investigator.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will come to order.
Let the record show that, pursuant to law and the rules of this com-
mittee, I have appointed a subcommittee for the purpose of conduct-
ing these hearings composed of Representatives William M. Tuck, of
Virginia ; Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio ; and myself as chairman.
The order of appointment of the subcommittee will be set forth in
the record at this point :
January 21, 1958.
To : Mr. Richard Arens
Staff Director
House Committee on Un-American Activities
Pursuant to the provisions of law and the rules of this Committee, I hereby
appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, consisting
of Representatives Gordon H. Scherer and William M. Tuck, associate members,
and myself, Francis E. Walter, as Chairman, to conduct hearings in Gary, Indi-
ana, on Monday and Tuesday, February 10th and 11th, 1958, at 10 : 00 a. m.,
on subjects under investigation by the Committee and take such testimony on
said days or succeeding days, as it may deem necessary.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under by hand this 21st day of January, 1958.
[SJ Francis E. Walter,
Chairman, Conitnittee on Un-American Activities.
The Chairman. The subject and legislative purposes of this hear-
ing are reflected by the following extract taken from the minutes of a
meeting of the committee held on January 15, 1958 :
A motion was made by Mr. Scherer, seconded by Mr. Willis and unanimously
carried, approving and authorizing the holding of hearings in Gary, Indiana,
1955
1956 COMIMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
beginning on the 10th day of February, 1958, or on such other date as the Chair-
man of the Committee may determine, and continuing from day to day, and time
to time, until the hearings are conipleted, and the conduct of investigations
deemed reasonably necessary by the staff in preparation therefor, relating to the
following subjects and having the legislative purposes indicated.
1. The extent, character, and objects of Communist infiltration and Communist
Party propaganda activities in basic industry in the Gary, Indiana, area, the
legislative purpose being to obtain additional information for use by the Commit-
tee in its consideration of Section 16 of H. R. 9352, relating to the proposed
amendment of Section 4 of the Communist Control Act of 1954, prescribing a
penalty for knowingly and willfully becoming or remaining a member of the
Communist Party with knowledge of the purpose or objective thereof, and for
the additional legislative purpose of adding to the Committee's overall knowl-
edge on the subject, so that Congress may be kept informed and thus prepared
to enact remedial legislation in the national defense and for internal security
when and if the exigencies of the situation require it.
2. Execution by administrative agencies concerned of Public Law 637, of the
83d Congress known as the "Communist Control Act of 1954," relating to the
eligibility to exercise the rights and privileges provided under the National Labor
Relations Act of labor organizations determined by the Subversive Activities
Control Board to be Communist-infiltrated organizations. The legislative pur-
pose is to assist Congress in appraising the administration of the Communist
Control Act of 1954 and to enact such amendments thereto as the exigencies of the
situation require.
3. Any other matter within the jurisdiction of the Committee which it or any
subcommittee thereof, appointed to conduct this hearing, may designate.
Under the provisions of Public Law 601, 79tli Congress, the Con-
gress has phiced upon this committee certain legisLative and investiga-
tive duties and, in addition, the duty of exercising continuous watch-
fuhiess over the execution of any laws, the subject matter of which is
within the jurisdiction of this committee. iVccordingly, within the
framework of this broad jurisdiction and objectives, this subcommittee
of the Committee on Un-American Activities is here in Gar}'^ for the
purpose of receiving testimony concerning Communist techniques
and tactics of infiltration and the extent, character, and objects of
Communist Party propaganda activities in basic industries. The im-
portance of this area of inquiry from the standpoint of national secu-
rity, cannot be overemphasized. Without this inJormation, it would
be impossible for the committee to carry out its legislative duties as
required of it by the Congress.
In response to the mandate from the Congress to keep constant
surveillance over existing security legislation, the committee is con-
stantly surveying the operation of the Internal Security Act of 1950,
the Foreign Agents Registration Act, the various espionage statutes,
the Communist Control Act of 1954, and similar laws for the purpose
of keeping Congi'ess informed of the manner in which laws are being
adniinistered and for the purpose of recommending any needed legis-
lative amendments. This mandate will be carried out at this hearing.
The committee recently formulated an Omnibus Security Bill, H. E.
9352, which represents the most comprehensive effort ever made to
deal with all problems in the field of internal security. This bill
combines numerous proposals for empowering the Government to
combat the various aspects of the Communist conspiracy which are
not dealt with adequately in our present laws. It is the hope of the
committee that factual information obtained at this hearing will be
of assistance in the consideration of the numerous provisions of this
bill.
The committee is especially desirious of obtaining additional in-
formation for use in its consideration of Section 16 of H. R. 9352,
(X)MMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1957
relating to the proposed amendment of Section 4 of the Communist
Control Act of 1954, prescribing a penalty for knowingly and willingly
becoming or remaining a member of the Communist Party with
knowledge of the purpose or objective thereof.
T\^ien investigating Communists and Communist activities, this
committee frequently has been met with the false and unfounded
charge that it is merel}' seeking headlines; that we are a gi'oup of
Fascists; that we are engaged in witch-hunting; and the like. Such
charges will not dissuade us from our duty. We seek the facts and
only the facts. In the conduct of this hearing, we are not interested
in any dispute between labor and management, between one union and
another union, or with disputes within a union. We propose to ascer-
tain the facts on Communist activity irrespective of the field in which
it occurs.
In the course of the last several hearings of the Committee on Un-
American Activities, we have discovered a new technique practiced
by Communists for the purpose of disguising their operations. Per-
sons who have been identified by responsible witnesses, under oath,
as Communists have themselves denied present technical membership
in the Communist Party for the period of time beginning with the
announcement of committee hearings. Time and again we have seen
instances in which hard-core leaders of the conspiracy deny, while
they are under oath, that they are present members of the Communist
Party, but refuse to testifj^ respecting past membership as recent as a
week or so prior to the hearings or with respect to their contemplated
future courses of action. This situation, coupled with our other
sources of information, compel us to conclude that they have merely
practiced the ruse of resigning technical membership for the purpose
of deceit. It is hoped tliat this pattern will not develop during the
hearings here in Gary.
It is the standing rule of this committee that any person identified as
a member of the Communist Party during the course of the committee
hearings will be given an early opportunity to appear before this
committee, if he desires, for the purpose of denying or explaining
any testimony adversely affecting him.
I would remind those present that a disturbance of any kind or
audible comment during the testimony, whether favorable or unfavor-
able to any witness or the committee, will not be tolerated. Any
infraction of this rule will result in the offender being ejected from the
hearing room.
I am particularly happ}^ to be able to say that in this eternal struggle
against international communism your own Representative in the Con-
gress, Ray Madden, has made a great contribution in the work that he
did with respect to the Katyn massacres. Tliat was a monumental job,
and placing the blame where it belongs was long overdue. Your
Representative certainly made a very fine contribution by his efforts
in that field.
Mr. Tavenner, will you call your first witness?
Mr. Ta\t:xxer. INIr. John Lautner, will you come forward, please?
The Chairmax. Mr. Lautner, will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do you swear the testimony j^ou are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Lautner. I do.
The Chairman. Take a seat, please.
1958 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BAf^lC INDUSTRY
TESTIMONY OF JOHN lAUTNER
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mr. Lautner. My name is John Lautner.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Where do you live, Mr. Lautner ?
Mr. Lautner. In Youngstown, Ohio.
]\Ir. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Lautner. I was born on the 1st of January, 1902, in Hungary.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr. Lautner. lam.
Mr. TAM2NNER. When and where were you naturalized?
Mr. Lautner. I was naturalized in Youngstown, Ohio, in Judge
Lyons' Common Pleas Court in June 1926.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lautner, have you had experience of any kind
in the Communist Party of the United States ?
Mr. Lautner. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a functionary of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time ?
Mr. Lautner. Over a period of time for about 20 years, from about
1930 to about 1950, and I wouldn't exclude the time I was in the Armed
Forces during the war.
Mr. Tavenner. What period of time was that ?
Mr. Lautner. That was from November 1942 to June 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your prin-
cipal positions have been within the Communist Party ? I want the
committee to have a general background of j^our experience.
Mr. Lautner. Well, I was a section organizer of the Communist
Party in New York City for a number of years. I was a district
organizer of the Communist Party for 5 years in West Virginia. I
was on the Nationality Groups Commission of the Communist Party
1941 and 1942 and then again in 1945.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Let me interrupt you there again a moment. You
say you were on the Nationality Commission
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. — of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that a nationwide organization ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct. It is a subcommittee of the National
Committee of the Communist Party that specializes in carrying out
Communist Party policies in the various nationality groups.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Is that the highest authority within the Communist
Party in that field?
Mr. Lautner. In that field, it is.
Then, I was a member of the National Review Commission of
the Communist Party for a number of years.
Mr. Taatenner. Just a moment. Tell the committee what is meant
by the National Review Commission.
Mr. Lautner. Tlie National Review Commisison is the disciplinary
arm of the Communist Party. Its main function is to instill disci-
pline and vigilance in the ranks of the party membership as to the
carrying out of the party policies.
The Chairiman. Since tliere is difficulty with the public address
system, we will suspend for a few minutes.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1959
(Brief recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr, Lautner, you did not finish. You were
describing the function of the National Review Commission of which
you were a member.
Will you continue ?
Mr. Lautner. That is right. I got as far as guiding the party to
j]istill discipline and vigilance in the ranks of the Communist Party
and to process disciplinary cases that were rendered in the lower
organizations of the party and make disciplinary decisions and recom-
mendations pertaining to these cases.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this the highest authority in the United States
within the Communist Party within this field ?
Mr. Lautner. Subject to approval of our decisions by the National
Secretariat, it was the highest authority on discipline. In addition
to that, I was chairman of this Review Commission in New York
State in 1947, '48 and '49, up to the time I left the Communist Party
in 1950.
In addition to that, also I taught numerous classes in the Communist
Party on Marxism, Leninism, on political economy, on party organiza-
tion and party structure, and in return I was a student in two national
training schools in the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. What were those national training schools?
Mr. Lautner. The national training schools were a selected group
of Communist functionaries, high functionaries who were brought to-
gether and were assigned to study for a number of months Marxism,
Leninism, and all the related problems to Marxism and Leninism.
Mr. Tavenner. You say that you left the Communist Party in
1950?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been connected with it in any way since
that time ?
Mr. Lautner. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I think the committee should understand the cir-
cumstances under which you left the Communist Party.
Mr. Lautner. Well, I left the Communist Party involuntarily on
the ITth of January, 1950. I picked up the Daily Worker and I saw
my picture and an expulsion notice in the Daily Worker at that time.
Prior to that I was subjected to indignities and torture, if you please,
five hundred miles away from where I resided by Communist Party
functionaries.
Mr. Scherer. You were subjected to
Mr. Lautner. Indignities and torture and unfounded accusations.
Mr. Scherer. Will you describe those indignities and tortures and
the circumstances.
Mr. Lautner. Yes. In late December 1949, I was approached to
make an application for a passport that I am invited to Hungary as a
guest of the Hungarian Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. May I interrupt you there ?
Did you hold any position in this country in a language group at that
time ?
Mr. Lautner. At that time, no. I was a member of the National
Review Commission of the Communist Party and chairman of the New
York State Review Commission.
1960 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Needless to say, I didn't get my passport because, the explanation
was by Mrs. Shipley, due to the Vogeler case with Hungary at that
time, there was a strained diplomatic relationship between the two
countries and they did not advise any American citizen to go to
Hungary at that time. So I was turned down.
I reported this to the party. Well, I was told to forget about it. A
few weeks later, I was approached again to go to Cleveland, Ohio, on
an assignment, to meet the person who was in cliarge in the Midwest to
prepare the party to go underground ; and I was going to have some
conferences with him to help him accelerate his work and bring it up to
the same level that we had it in New York at the time.
Instead of meeting that person in Cleveland, Ohio, 1 found myself
in a cellar witli three thugs that I never saw in my life before. They
stripped me naked, completely, even I had to take my socks off, and
they began to— well, they were knocking the wall with rubber hoses,
they had butcher knives, and they had revolvers. As this was going
on, 3 high functionaries of the Communist Party came down in
the cellar, Joe Brandt, Saul Wellman, and Jack Kling, the national
treasurer of the Communist Party; and they rigged up a recording
machine and the}' started to interrogate me about my connections with
the Government, with the FBI, and with the CIA. I didn't even know
at that time vrhat the CIA was. And I protested my innocence, and
the more I protested, the angrier they got. I was interrogated for a
immber of hours and finally, through my own resourcefuhiess, I con-
vinced them that it wouldn't be profitable for them to do away with
me at that time.
I was told to resume the hearing next day — the so-called hearing.
I was given my clothes back. They searclied them thoroughly. I
never saw them after that, and this was on the 14th of January in
Cleveland.
On the 17th of Januaiy I was back in New York. I picked up the
Daily Worker and there I was accused of being an enemy agent of
long standing in the Communist Party. And that was the end of my
membership in the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenxer. Were you at that time a representative of the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation or any other Government agency ?
Mr. Lautxer. No ; I was not.
Mr. Tavexxer. What was tlie basis of this charge that Avas made
against you?
Mr. Lautxer. During the war I was in Psychological Warfare. I
vv-as sent to Camp Ritchie. I went through the Military Intelligence
Training Scliool there, the War Department Military Training School.
After graduation I was assigned, solely on my ability, as a linguist
and knowing journalism and propaganda. I was assigned to Eisen-
hower's headquarters in xVlgiers.
Mr. ScHERER, Were you a member of the Communist Party at that
time?
Mr. Lautxer. Technically I Avas not because there was a party
decision at that time that all those members who are inducted in the
Arrny are automatically released from party membership. The reason
is given that they could not carry out the primary obligations, the
most elementary obligations of a party member, that is, to attend
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1961
meetings and pay dues. So we were released from the party for the
duration.
Mr. ScHERER. You actually were a Communist, though?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. But technically I was not a party member
I was assigned to Eisenhower's headquarters. I was assigned to
establish a monitor team to monitor enemy radio stations in Algiers;
and later on we were transferred to a field unit out in Italy, known as
the Balkan Team of AFHQ, Allied Forces Headquarters, to monitor
all eneni}' stations there and to make daily reports. And in addition to
that I was also assigned to write script, and for over a year I was also
on the radio in Bari, Italy, speaking towards Hungary at that time.
Now, in my unit, there was a person who was a Spanish veteran,
who joined the British Army, and he was assigned to my unit. I was
told to take care of him. In the course of our work I got acquainted
with him, and it was a situation where we at the same time had to
build up a news service and a monitoring system for the Yugoslavs
in 1943 and '44 in Bari, Italy. In the course of our work we got ac-
quainted with a lot of Yugoslavs, too, and everybody was introducing
everybody to everybody.
In 1949, this person appeared in a trial in Hungary. At that trial
a number of high officials of the Communist Government, like Laszlo
Rajk and others were accused of being Tito agents. This fellow was
one of the witnesses against Rajk and the others who were hanged
by the Communist Government and shot by the Communist Gov-
ernment.
My name was mentioned, and he said that I was the one who intro-
duced him to Tito agents during the war in Bari, Italy.
Well, in 1944, '43 and '45 there was no issue of Titoism. It just
didn't exist. However, I was implicated in the Rajk trial in '49 and
the international leadership, whether it was Rakosi or others, in
Moscow, sent instructions to this party to get rid of me and get rid
of me fast.
That is where my predicament started with this party over here,
and I know it was done bj'^ this party reluctantly, because I was in-
volved in very sensitive work in 1948 and 1949 in this country.
Mr. Tavenner. That was Communist Party work ?
Mr. Lautner. Communist Party work. I was in cliarge of building
the horizontal features of the underground in New York State. And
I would not be entrusted by the Communists with that sort of a func-
tion if they had any suspicions about my loyalty to the party.
So that is the situation of my expulsion.
Mr. Tavenner. After that word came down from Moscow to get
rid of you, was it then that you were told to go to Hungary ?
Mr. Lautner. First, to Hungary, and that didn't work out; and
I was told to go to Cleveland, and that didn't work out, because — the
way I reflect today — the person who was in charge of that wrecking
crew, Jack Kling, he got yellow, he was afraid.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Lautner, in view of the splendid work that you
have exhibited in fighting communism since 1950, we are very glad
indeed that your application for a passport to Hungary was denied.
Mr, Lautner, the principal purpose of the hearing in Gary is to
receive testimony relating to the techniques and strategy of the Com-
1962 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
munist Party within basic industry and to ascertain the extent, char-
acter, and objects of Communist Party activities within that field.
The committee would like to hear from you, if you know from your
own experience over a 20-year period in the Conmiunist Party, the
principal purposes of the Communist Party in basic industry.
Mr. Lautner. Yes. Well, first, on the basis of my experiences,
let me say that the Communist Party, in the course of my membership
in it, was interested in all phases of human relationships in this coun-
try. The reason for that was to make headway in every strata of our
society and our population over here. But in this effort, they always
kept in the forefront the fundamental aims and objectives of the
Communist Party in all of their activities in this country; and that
fundamental aim and objective was to brin*^ about a change, a funda-
mental change, in the social relationship of forces in this country, in
society, to bring that fundamental cliange in society, in its political
aspects, in its economic aspects, and in its social aspects; commonly,
it is called bring about socialism in this country.
Now, in the course of years, in classes and in indoctrination courses,
it was made clear that members of a Marxist-Leninist Party cannot
dream or wish to bring about this change peacefully. Those that
speak about peaceful achievement or peaceful transition into social-
ism have nothing in common with Marxism-Leninism. They are
reformists and they are enemies and traitors of the working class. You
can only bring about this change by force, because the United States is
a very powerful monopoly, a capitalistic country who will not readily
hand over their predatory power on a platter to the Communist Party
or to any group in this country.
If that is so, therefore, the Communist Party must win, first of all,
the decisive section of the working class on its side.
Now, where are the decisive sections of the working class ? In the
basic industries, such as mining, steel, metal, auto, packing, railroad,
transportation — these are the industries on which the Communist
Party must concentrate all its efforts, its talent, money, everything, to
win these sections, first of all, over to the cause of Marxism and Lenin-
ism.
And I recall way back in 1932, when a turn was made in that direc-
tion after a long drawn-out factional fight and a relative stabilization
set in, in the party under the leadership of Browder when he came
into power, an open letter was issued to the Communist Party: "Face
to the Shop." "Face to the Shop" ; the slogan at that time was that
we must be^in to concentrate on basic industry, in basic industry, to
basic factories and shops. Each has a reputation in a given commu-
nity as to the way they go. The whole community thinks around
them and revolves around them, and they drag the whole community
around with them. In basic factories, concentration on basic depart-
ments, key departments; in key departments, to concentrate on key
people; and shop units began to be built in many, many industrial
regions in the country.
In steel, three districts were picked out for concentration in the
early days. The Calumet region was one of them. Youngstown,
Ohio, was another one. Pittsburgh and the whole Allegheny-Monon-
^ahela Valley, Susquehanna Valley, and the Allentown region with
its steel industries was another.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1963
So the slogan was practically imprinted on everyone in the Com-
munist Party, particularly functionaries — key industry, key shop,
key department, key people.
Well, that effort revolved around building the so-called revolution-
ary industrial miions in those days.
Mr. TA\rENNER. They were called the Red miions, were they not?
Mr. Lautxer. The Red unions, because they were affiliated with the
Trade Union League, with the Profintern, which had its headquarters
in Moscow. Foster Avas chairman of the Trade Union Unity League
in this country at that time.
A whole crew of so-called skeleton unions were built up in this
country during those days, like the Steel and Metal Workers Indus-
trial Union, the Auto Workers Industrial Union, the Textile Work-
ers Industrial Union, and the Transportation Workers Industrial
Union, and a whole chain of unions like that. They didn't gain
much foothold but had skeleton organizations in every industry in
the country.
Mr. Taat:nner. May I interrupt you there ?
Was one of the reasons, or the greatest reason, for the failure of the
Communists in that undertaking the fact that the Communists found
that they could not sell communism to the rank and file of labor when
they used the Commmiist label to do it ?
Mr. Lautxer. It is correct in a respect. You see at that time we
had the American Federation of Labor, organized labor was about
three and one-half millions; but you had most of the basic industries,
like steel, unorganized yet. The AFL had some segments in it, like
the machinists and what not. But still, with all these subjective pos-
sibilities, the Communist Party could not make much headway in
organizing in these basic industries.
Then a favorable turn came about in 1936. In lOoG, first a Com-
mittee for Industrial Organization was formed that finally held its
first convention in Pittsburgh as the Congress of Industrial Organiza-
tions; and all these sl^eleton organizations in the basic industries
controlled by the Connnunist Party at that time went into the CIO,
hook, line and sinker; and they gained a lot of strength in there, so
that, in the course of j^ears, they built up 13 international unions and
had influence over approximate!}' one-tliird of the CIO movement at
that particular time.
Now, at that time I recall industrial conferences that were held.
Those in the party were called to national committee meetings. I at-
tended national committee meetings in 1036, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940,
and 1941. The key argument was always, "We are topheavy with
Communist functionaries in trade miion leadersliip and there is no
bottom to it. There is no party organization in tlie bottom of these
trade imions in these industries where the so-called party-controlled
unions are operating."
Mr. Tavenner. They did not have a sufficient ground root organiza-
tion?
Mr. Lautner. That is right. The workers were much more prac-
tical. They didn't join.
23178—58 2
1964 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Came the war and the party was still enjoying the support or de-
cisive influence in the 13 unions; and after the war, a change, a switch
took place.
The CIO leadership began to feel that this leadership in these 13
international unions affiliated with the Congress of Iiulustrial Or-
ganizations was much more interested in carrying out and projecting
a foreign policy that was just the opposite of the foreign policy of the
United States, the Marshall Plan, the Truman Doctrine; and there
came a time when the CIO leadership began to expel in toto all these
unions from the Congress of Industrial Organizations. So that by
1947 the chishes began to develop, and by 1949 all these unions were
expelled.
Mr. Tavenner. Give us the names of a few of those unions.
Mr. Lautxer. The United Electrical "Workers Union, the Mine,
Mill and Smelter Workers Union, the United Public Workers Union ;
the West Coast Longshore Union, and the Furriers Union. Thirteen
of these international unions were expelled from the CIO.
So, here was a situation where man}', manj^ trade union leadei-s in
these expelled unions began to take issue with the party leadership
about the type of policies they were forced to pui-sue for the Com-
munist Party in the trade union movements, and began to break away
from the Communist Party and its influence. Mike Quill v.as one of
them in the Transport Workers Union who made that break in the
19-48 Presidential campaign.
Now, it is very interesting to see the practical maneuvering that
went on inside the party projected by the so-called trade union spe-
cialists, Johnny Williamson and the others.
Mr. Tavenner. Johnny Williamson was a defendant in the first
Smith Act case ?
Mr. Lautner. That is right. Johnny Williamson was the Labor
Secretary of the Communist Party in this period.
We were accused at that time by Philip JNIurray that we were inter-
fering in the internal problems*^ of the CIO. Johnny Williamson
called a meeting in New York of all the section organizers of the
Communist Party who were in charge of infiltrating and influencing
policies in the labor unions and projecting Communist policy in the
labor union ; and he came and gave a report to these industrial section
organizers and said: "It is the considered judgment and the decision
of the National Committee that we are not interfering in the internal
problems of the unions."
He is telling that to the leaders of the party who are day to day
interfering in the internal problems of the union. That is the kind
of a tactical maneuvering that was going on at that time.
Now, I want to come up to 1945 when the Communist Party was
reconstituted and Browder's revisionist policies were condemned and
we went back to Marxism, Leninism, to the classics. Browder was
accused that he tried to revise, to subvert, to reform, and to go away
from, the basic principles of ISIarxism and Leninism. He was ex-
pelled. After the reconstitution, the party developed a three-prong
program. First, to re-educate the party membership in ]Marxism and
Leninism. The bulk of the party membership came in under Brow-
der's leadership. Evidently there was a feeling that Browder still
had a lot of influence over the party membership. Therefore, there
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1965
was a need for the re-education in Marxism and Leninism of the party
membership.
The second prong was the reorganization of the Communist Party.
The party was reconstituted in the South. The party established 32
districts, and the party began to streamline its organization on the
basic levels, in the branches and sections, in order to make the party
more mobile, in order to put the party leadership in a position where
they can better supervise and give leadership in the day-to-day activi-
ties to the party membership, so that they can check up on everyone's
activity who is a member of the party.
And the third phase of it was to reestablish again a concentration
policy in basic industries.
Well, I took part as a party functionary in all 3 phases, all 3 aspects
of the work on one level or the other.
But here I would like to point out that in preparation for the 1948
convention the party called industrial conferences; such industrial
conferences were held in the Midwest here. I took part in the Eastern
Seaboard conference in 1947 to make a survey of how far the party
had developed its reorganization and to what extent did the party
already begin to do concentration work. And at this Eastern Sea-
board conference, also plans were laid for further acceleration of this
program so that, by the 1948 convention when the delegates come to
the party convention, they can report some experiences along these
lines and can show some achievements along these lines.
In this period also a policy of colonization began. I want to make
it clear over here that the party always had an eye on all these activ-
ities to bring about the realization of its final objectives, a complete
fundamental change in our society, to gain control and to usher in
socialism in our society.
Mr. Ta\^nner. And how important was basic industry in tlie ac-
complishment of that object ?
Mr. Lautxer. The basic industries contained the decisive sections
of the working class, without which the Communist Party camiot
realize its fundamental objective.
Colonizers even were sent to this region. I know from my own
personal experience two of them who were sent over here in that
IDeriod of time. One was Joe Chandler, who just got back from the
Army and was waiting for a reassignment and was reassigned to
Gary, Ind., as a steel colonizer to build the party in the steel indus-
try over here. Prior to that, his last assignment was that he was a
section organizer in aluminum in the New Kensington Section of the
Pittsburgh District of the Communist Party.
The other person who was reassigned was George Powers. George
Powers was an old-time party functionary. In the 19o0's when the
party forces all went into the CIO, he was on the Steelworkers Or-
ganizing Committee and he worked around Ashland, Ky. There is a
steel mill over there. He was assigned by the Steelworkers Organiz-
ing Committee to work around there. In 1946 and '47 he was the
top party industrial organizer in New York on longshore. He was
the party coordinator of Communist activities in the longshore indus-
try. In 1947 he was sent down to the Calumet region as the party
coordinator in steel, and by the 1948 convention he came to the New
1966 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
York convention as a native Indianian who was working for the
party in the Calumet region at that time,
]\Ir. Tam<:xxer. These were specially trained persons selected for
the particular work to be done in the Gary area '?
Mr. Lautner. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Ta\'EXXEr. Do you know whether or not they used their real
names here in Indiana or whether they operated under assumed
names?
Mr. LAUTXEif. I would not know. I assume that George Powers
wouldn't use liis real name.
Mr. Tam2XNEr. AYould or would not ?
Mr. LatjTxer. Would not.
Mr. Sciierer. For the purpose of the record, we all know Calumet
is part of the Gary area.
^Ir. Lautxer. Yes. Indiana Harbor, Hammond, the South Chi-
cago area, and this steel area.
Mr. ScHERER. How far is Calumet from Gary?
Air. Lautxer. The whole region is called the Calumet region.
Along these lines, other organizers were sent to other parts of the
country to do the same type of party activity, to coordinate party
M'ork in the basic industries.
Xow, in tliis period of time, tlie concentration policy of the party
was in the forefront in all party activities. I know I myself was
assigned in 1947 to go down to the New York waterfront. In New
York there is no steel mill and tliere are no mines, but New York has
also a basic key industry and that is transport.
New York has a shed over there, a teamsters' shed, one of the most
powerful in the comitry. New York has docks. New York has rail-
way centers. Chelsea was the region that was assigned to me to
reorganize ; and I was working for weeks to only make a survey as to
the physical location of places — where are the teamster sheds; where
do the American Railway Express workers hang out; where do the
Pennsylvania Railroad workers hang out; where do the New York
Central West Side Terminal workers hang out; where do the team-
sters hang out; where do the longshoremen hang out? I made a sur-
vey on all these things.
Then we had to organize on the waterfront. We had the industrial
sections already that worked in these specific industries as Commu-
nists, but we had to reassign Communist Party members in the com-
munity branches to implement, to help along those party members
that were in the industry already, for leaflet distributions, 5 o'clock
in the morning at shape-ups on the waterfront, to visit the homes of
longshoremen and seamen, to visit the homes of Yugoslav stevedores,
to visit the homes of railway workers and railway express workers,
and to implement the industrial activities of the Communist Party
industrial Dranches with concentration branches from the outside in
the same direction.
Mr. Tavexxer. In other words, an important part of this plan of
infiltration into basic industry included the organization of the fam-
ilies of the workers.
Mr. Lautxer. That is correct, :-;o that when the worker came home
from his place of work and he will listen to his wife, his wife will
tell him about the high cost of living and bad apartments and raise
issues along these lines, where he heard the same thing on the water-
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1967
front from a different source, so there is a mutual understanding on
problems, where they understand each other and become closer knit,
closer allied with the Communist Party and its campaigns. I mean
it was that type of a concentration activity that was projected along
the waterfront in transportation.
By 1948, when the convention came along, Henry "Winston, the or-
ganizational director of the Communist Party
Mr. Tavenner. He was also convicted in the first Smith Act case,
was he not?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct — gave a report and in his report he
also spoke on the organization of the party and the projection of its
concentration policy ; and in liis report he stated that the reorganiza-
tion already resulted in establishing over 3,000 Communist Party
branches throughout the country, a whole slew of industrial sections,
and between 400 and 500 industrial branches were established by the
1948 convention.
Again here I want to make it clear that the reason for this frantic
effort on the part of the Communist Party after 1945 was to regain
that foothold that it was beginning to lose because of the expulsion
by the CIO of leadership of the Communist activity and disruption
within the ranks of organized labor.
Now, after the 1948 convention, another organized effort was done
in this direction. J. Peters, who was a national functionary at that
time, organized a number of classes for colonizing party members.
Well, the classes were held in the board room of the New York
State organization of the Communist Party, and my office doors were
j ust 2 doors away, and I know Peters very closely, and I had a number
of discussions with him, and I watched him work on his curriculum,
on his material for presentation.
Now, these party members came in the main from colleges and uni-
versities.
Mr. Tavenner. Young men ?
Mr. Lautner. Young men. They were convinced that a so-called
bourgeois education and diploma have no future ; that there is a bet-
ter future for a bright and alert and, at the same time, loyal and
devoted young party person to go into basic industry and come up
with the grassroots and, in the course of a few years, become the
leader of a large segment of workers in basic industries.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, such individuals had to have more
faith in the ultimate victory of communism than in the victory of our
own way of life.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct. And unfortmiately a lot of these
boys fell for this line, and I know of two classes that were held in the
board room in the spring of 1949. These boys, after graduation, up-
rooted themselves, and they became professional revolutionaries. A
professional revolutionary is one who is loyal and devoted to the
Communist cause, to the Communist Party, who goes wherever and
whenever the party sends them to go, to whom
Mr. Scherer. Pardon me just a moment.
They became colonizers in industry, did they not? Many of them?
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Would you tell us, for the purpose of the record, what
is a colonizer ?
1968 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Lautner. A colonized Communist is one who is a professional
revolutionary, who has uprooted himself from his home environment
and carried out a party instruction, one who may have had personal
problems, family problems, but that was secondary. The first was the
problem of the party, and he submitted himself to become a person
who will solve for the party their problems and became a colonized
Communist to carry out Communist work in a basic industry.
Mr. ScHERER. Many times were ihej not individuals who had a col-
lege education, perhaps one or more degrees? They would leave,
say. New York City, and go to Detroit and, in filing an application
for a job with a large industry, thej^ would represent their educa-
tional attainments to be tliat only of a grade school student?
ISIr. Lautxer. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. And thus gain a position on the assembly line?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct. They were following Lenin in " 'Left
Wing' Communism : An Infantile Disorder," in whicli he chides
some of the mistakes of party leadership on the question of trade
union policies. I think in this instance it was the German party.
Lenin said :
It is necessary to be able to withstand all this, to agree to any and every sacri-
fice, and even — if need be — to resort to all sorts of devices, manoeuvres, and ille-
gal methods, to evasion and subterfuge, in order to penetrate into the trade
unions, to remain in them, and to carry on Communist work in them at all costs.
This is the underlying principle on the basis of which these people
will deny their name, will deny their education, will deny everything,
because that denial furthers the aims and objectives of the Commu-
nist Party. It would be a liability for him to be a worker in the mill
if he has a college degree; it wouldn't look good. There would be
immediately a suspicion of an ulterior motive in that, so they are car-
rying out a Leninist policy when they do that.
Mr. Scherer. They did have ulterior motives in concealing their
educational qualifications. They misrepresented their backgrounds
to gain a place on the assembly line, in order to be better able to in-
doctrinate others on that line.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. Was that the purpose ?
Mr. Lautner. That was the purpose. And it doesn't necessarily
involve only college graduates. It involves also long-standing party
leaders, party functionaries who at one point are reassigned. Today
he is an organizer of the Communist Party in the Bronx, and 2 weeks
later, under a different name and with a different social-security card,
he is working in an aircraft plant near Buffalo, near Niagara Falls,
or working in the steel mills or working in an automobile plant up
in Flint, Mich.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Yes. I should remind the subcommittee that we
received a considerable amount of evidence at Flint, Mich., of prob-
ably 8 or 10 instances of colonization of the exact type that you
described.
The Chairman. I think the most dramatic case that I can conceive
of was in North Carolina where college graduates were working in
the fish industry scaling fish.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
The Chahiman. Ph. D.'s and so on.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1969
Mr. Tavenner. And also the incident of Colorado University, where
the Communist Party leaders induced j^oung men to leave in the midst
of their educations and take positions in industry for the same
purposes.
Mr. ScHERER. The tragedy of it is that the men who were working
with them on the assembly line didn't know they had gotten their
position b}^ subterfuge.
Mr. Lautner. Well, the college boys, members of the Communist
Party, were carrying out a Leninist line by denying their identity and
using subterfuge.
Mr. Tavexner. You told us about this class or several classes that
were conducted by J. Peters, training young men in the universities
to go out and engage in colonization in industr}'. I think we ought
to know a little more about J. Peters so that we can better understand
the training that he was giving these young men.
Mr. Lautxer. J. Peters, I first knew him in 1929, at the time I
joined the Communist Part}'. We were in the same unit in New York
at that time. And at that time J. Peters was the business manager
of the Dail}' "Worker that moved from Chicago to New York and
was housed at Union Square in the party building. In the course of
time, J. Peters became the district organizational secretary of the
New York District of the Communist Party. Later on he went to
the Soviet L^nion. He was in the Soviet Union for a number of years.
When he came back, he became a national functionary for the Com-
munist Party. And in the late 19o0's he was in charge of the Com-
munist Party, for the national leadership of the Washington Party.
There were two parties in Washington, D. C. One was the open
party, operating with, I think, Chancey as tlie district organizer
or District of Columbia organizer of the party, and J. Peters was the
organizer of the party within the Government apparatus.
Mr. Ta\^xner. Which obtained secret information from Govern-
ment employees for the benefit of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Lautxer. I read about it in the newspaper. I read a lot about
that. I had no first-hand or personal knowledge of that. All I know
was he was in charge of that.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this is a good place for the morning
recess.
The Chairmax-. The committee will stand in recess for five minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairmax'. The committee will be in order.
Please proceed, Mr. Tavenner,
Mr. Ta^-ex-^x-er. Mr. Lautner, you have told us why basic industry
was of great importance to the Communist Party, and you have told
us of the objectives of the Communist Party within basic industry.
Will you now tell us some of the tactics or methods used by the
Communist Party in strengthening itself within basic industry.
Mr. Lautxer. Well, the tactics varied from time to time. As I
described, in the earlier days building industrial unions, revolutionary
industrial unions; tactics were different in the time when the party
had its so-called honeymoon in the CIO. The tactics varied aromid
1947^8, when these bi^ unions in tlie CIO were being ousted. Here
I would like to just point out one specific tactic that the party em-
-ployed at that time. Thc^e was a law enacted known as the Taft-
tlartley law. Now, when this law was being applied, the Communist
1970 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Party position was not to comply witli the law; but this position was
also the position of a number of other labor leaders who were not
Communists. They had to si^n loyalty forms in order to enable them
to take cases to the National Labor Kelations Board. But this tactic
by the party wasn't fruitful so at one point the party had to change
from noncompliance to compliance.
I personally know that in 1949, for example, there were Communist
Party leaders, even members of the Central Committee who were long
standing in Comnumist Party leadership and at the same time trade
union leaders, and they publicly resigned — I would put this "resign"
in quotation marks — from the Connnunist Party in order to enable
that union to petition the National Labor Relations Board and to
hear cases.
Other less-known Communist Party trade union leaders were told
to send in a registered letter to the Connnunist Party, with a return
address, and get hold of a registration slip that such letter was sent,
to keep that registration coupon, and they should sign Taft-Hartley
affidavits that they are not members of the Communist Party.
Now, with these envelopes when they came in they were instructed
to put a blank sheet of paper in the registered letter, and we can
always have as documentary evidence a registered letter by the United
States postal offices that tliis person, on such-and-such a date, sent a
letter to the Communist Party and you can always put in a letter of
registration which is legally accepted documentary proof that they
resigned from the Communist Party.
That Avas from noncompliance to compliance. These were some
of the tactics which were used in relation to the Taft-Hartley law.
In 1949, the work of the party in carrying out concentration work
in the basic industries was accelerated, and results were shown to the
extent that the Communist Party was in a position to publish or pro-
duce an outline on industrial concentration. That outline already
related some of the basic principles, Leninist principles, the need and
necessity of an industrial concentration.
It also gives in the outline some examples of fruitful work, of posi-
tive achievements along this line ; and this work served as a basis for
further accelerating industrial concentration work in the ranks of
the Communist Party.
I also would like to mention that in 1948 — beginning around Sep-
tember 1948 — the party was making preparations to go underground
to enable the party, in the face of the political climate that existed at
that time, to function as an organized force under any and all
conditions.
Now, on the question of integration into the underground, into
the "three" system, primary consideration was given, first to the
absolute loyalty and devotion of the party member who was to be
integrated into this organization ; secondly, that he works in a trade
union or has influence in the trade union where, as a concealed Corn-
munist, he will have enough elbow room to operate by concealing his
Communist Party membership and, at the same time, do Commu-
nist work.
NoAv, since I left the Communist Party— even in 1949 — there was a
discussion that began, and since I am out of the party I followed
very closely all Communist periodicals: The main slogan of the
party is to get back into the mainstream of labor because they are out
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1971
of the mainstream now, and the best way to get back into the main-
stream of hibor would be to colonize capable Commimist organizers
in the basic industries and to build fires under the existing leadership
to create dissension in the labor movement, cleavages around leader-
ship, and to enhance the party position along these lines until they
can come back again into power in segments of tlie American labor
movement.
Mr. Ta%t:nner. Then, if I understand you correctly, based upon
your vast experience in the party as a functionary and the study that
you have given the problem through Communist periodicals since
you got out of the party, you are prepared to say that today the
Communist Party is making an all-out effort in the field of basic
industry?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct; with their shrunken forces every
effort is turned in that direction, to get back into the mainstream of
labor.
The Chairman. Let me see if I understand you. You said they are
building fires. By that do you mean the discrediting of the present
leaders m labor unions ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct, Congressman. That is correct.
The Chairman. So that it is a Communist tactic to discredit the
present leadership with the hope that dissension will be created and
that more friendly people Avill be selected for leadership positions.
Mr. Lautner. That is right, that will tolerate, under the aegis of
civil liberties and freedom of speech, Communist activities in the labor
movement again.
The Chairman. But all the while the real objective and the identi-
ties of these people are concealed.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
The Chairman. I think it is a great tribute to the patriotism and
loyalty and the appreciation of what our institutions mean to the ordi-
nary common worker that deception has to be practiced in order to get
a foothold.
Mr. Lautner. That is right. But may I say this, Congressman. It
was my experience as a Communist organizer for 20 years, and since
I am out of the part}'- 8 years I begin to see that the American worker
is a worker that has a lot of common sense. He will not swallow a
sugar-coated pill, he will not swallow communism.
The Chairman. I wish all of the workers could have seen the lot of
the workers in Yugoslavia, as I did not too many months ago. I am
sure then that the dwindling membership would become practically
nil overnight.
Excuse me. Go ahead.
Mr. Lautner. May I make just one more comment ?
Even behind the Iron Curtain the workers somehow do not swallow
this pill. Hungarj' somehow is a classic example. The workers
revolted against the tyranny of the Communist Kakosi regime over
there, and they learned one thing. They used against the Communist
hierarchy and the Communist bureaucrats the same tactics that they
learned from the Communists. They established workers' councils
to fight the Communist leadership in Hungary. And wherever there
is a little chance given behind the Iron Curtain for Avorkers to assert
their thinkinf^ and their rights, if that chance is given, well, you see
the results of it.
1972 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
The Chairman. They are seeking the chance only because they per-
mitted infiltration.
Mr. Lautner. That is right.
The Chairman. That is one of the things Congress had in mind
when it imposed upon this committee the very distasteful, very dis-
agreeable task that we have; and it is very significant, I think, that
when we just received our appropriation several weeks ago, despite
what lef twing press segments have reported, there were scattered votes
against the committee, there were 2 votes against the appropriation,
2 in the whole Congi-ess. The vote was twice as strong as it was last
year when there was only 1 vote against it.
Mr. Tavexner. Now, you mentioned the question of bringing pres-
sure to bear on leadership in the union through Communist plans.
Was there a time when anyone from this area at a labor convention
endeavored to speak out in behalf of communism against the leader-
ship in labor ?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. Well, the only incident that I can recall from
this area was at the 1948 convention of the Communist Party, when
one of the local Communists over here was put on the presiding com-
mittee of the 1948 convention. He was highly praised for the bravery
and fortitude and the position that he took in carrying out his party
assignment at the Boston convention of the United Steelworkers of
America. And if I recall, the name of that person was Nick Migas.
The Chairman. How do you spell it ?
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how to spell it ?
Mr. Lautner. M-i-g-a-s, I think. He was from Gary, Ind. He
was a local official. He was a delegate to the Boston convention and
he fought Philip INIurray openly on the floor against the IMarshall
Plan and the Truman Doctrine, carrying out tlie party line at that
convention.
Mr. Tavenner. So he was rewarded for that.
Mr. Lautner. In the 1948 National Convention of the Communist
Party when he was put on the presidiiun and highly praised by
Eugene Dennis, William Z. Foster, and Henry Winston.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at one time assigned to any special work
within a language group?
Mr. Lautner. Yes. I was on the Nationality Groups Commission
of the Communist Party in 1941 and 1942 and also in 1945 and 1946
and, specifically, I was National Secretary of the Plungarian National
Bureau of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, in what way — or let me put it this way — did
the Communist Party consider that foreign-language groups were of
importance in connection with basic industry ?
Mr. Lautner. That is correct. The party paid a lot of attention to
nationalitj-group work because it is a fact that in basic industries
you have a lot of nationality groups. You have Hungarians, Polish,
Ukrainians. Rumanians, and what-have-you, that work in basic in-
dustries. Tliey don't read tlie Daily Worker. Even the party
groups in these nationality groups don't read the Daily Worker be-
cause they have difficulties in reading English. So the language bu-
reaus of the Communist Party have newspapers like the Hungarians
had the Hungarian Daily Journal, and various other nationality-
group papers.
CX)MMUN1ST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1973
Now, these papers get into a lot of places where the Daily Worker
or Sunday Worker could not get in ; and these papers also reflect the
party line, the party tactical line, and the party thinking and help
the party in penetrating these various national groups who are em-
ployed in big industrial areas and basic industries.
Mr. ScHERER. For the record, we all know that the committee's
hearings last year disclosed that at this moment there are 9,000,000
pieces of Communist propaganda«coming into this country each year
through the United States mails, much of it in foreign languages.
Mr. Lautner. From behind the Iron Curtain.
Mr. ScHERER. That is right.
Mr. Lautner. But in addition to that, there are local Communist
language-papers in various languages. I remember in that hearing
one of the Chicago language-papers had a circulation of 20,000. Now
that paper, with a circulation of 20,000, propagating the Communist
Party line gets into a lot of places, in the main, in the Chicago area.
I think it was the Lithuanian paper. I think that is what it was, the
Lithuanian paper in Chicago.
Mr. Scherer. I am talking about propaganda coming in yesterday,
today, and tomorrow.
Mr. Lautner. And every day, that is correct.
Mr. Scherer. Not two years ago or three years ago or five years ago.
Mr. Lautner. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the last national convention of the
Communist Party or were you an observer there?
Mr. Lautner. I was not. I read about it. They had the proceed-
ings out of the Sixteenth National Convention. I followed that pre-
convention discussion in the Daily Worker and in the Worker, but I
was not a member of the Communist Party. The last convention tliat
I attended was in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. Now^, did anything occur at that convention that
you can recall which would demonstrate a special interest of the Com-
munist Party in basic industry ?
Mr. Lautner. You mean at this last convention ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lautner. In 1956 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lautner. Well, the party registered its sectarian policies of the
past and concurred with the slogan raised in the last few years — that
the primary problem of the party is to get back into the mainstream
of labor; in order to accelerate this work to move its headquarters
from New York to Chicago. Whether they move to Chicago I
wouldn't know. I still see that they are hanging around New York.
But that was made a decision to move their national headquarters to
Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. To get closer to the basic industries ?
Mr. Lautner. To the basic industries in the heart of America ; that
is right.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe, Mr. Lautner, that concludes my question-
ing of you.
The Chairman. Mr. Lautner, I express the appreciation not only of
those who were fortunate enough to hear you but our committee and
the membership of the House. You have made a great contribution
in this struggle. For that the American people are indebted to you.
1974 COMJVIUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Lautner. Thank you very much, Congressman.
The CiiAiRjNiAN. AVill you call your next witness 'i
Mr. Tavexxek. ]\Ir. Edward Yellin, will you come forward, please?
The CiiAiRMAX'. Will you raise your right liand ?
Do you solemnly sw^ear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God i
Mr. Yellix^. I do.
The CiiAiRMAx^. All right, Mr. TJiivenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. Have a seat j)lease.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD YELLIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
VICTOR RABINOWITZ
Mr. Tavex'xer. Will you state your name please, sir.
Mr. Yellix. Edward Yellin.
Mr. Tavexx'er. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
lify himself for the record ?
Mr. Rabixowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, New York.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where and when were you born, IMi*. Yellin?
Mr. Yellix. July 2, 1927, Bronx, New York.
]\Ir. Tavexx'Er. '\^'^lere do you now reside ?
Mr. Yellix. Fort Collins, Colorado.
Mr. Scherer. I cannot hear the witness.
The Chairmax'. Where ?
Mr. Yellix'. Fort Collins, Colorado.
Mr. Taa-exxer. How long have you lived at Fort Collins, Colorado ?
Mr. Yellix'. Since just about September of '57.
Mr. Tavexxer. '50 i
Mr. Yellix'. September '57.
Mr. Tavexxer. Where did you reside prior to^
Mr. Rabix'owitz. Mr. Counsel, I wonder whether it would be jdos-
sil)le to i-ead into the record the exchange of telegrams between my-
self and the committee in connection with the witness's testimony. I
would like to have it appear in the record.
The Ciiair3iax. We will decide whether it will be made a part of
the record when the executive session is held. Go ahead.
Mr. IvAiuxowrrz. Mr. Chairman. I sent the telegrams because I
wanted them to a])pear. I do not care whether they appear publicl}'
or not. I do want it to a])pear that th.at exchange of telegrams oc-
curred. I did not do it just to increase the revenue of the telegram
company.
The Chair3[ax. Well, whatever tlie reason Avas, whether it has
been stated or otherwise, it will be considered in executive session.
Mr. Rabixowitz. May I state — —
The CiiAiRMAX'. Do not bother. You know the privileges given you
b}" this committee. You have appeared before it often enough. You
know as well as anybody.
Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Yellin, where did you reside prior to Septem-
ber 1957?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Tavenner, is that right?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1975
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Tavenner, if I may I would like to say just a few
words before I answer that question to state my gi-ounds as to what
my position will be on answering questions.
The Chairman. Just answer this question, not your grounds for
answering questions that have not been asked.
Mr. Yellin". Then let me say that I feel that this question and this
line of questioning will probably lead into certain areas of my free-
dom of beliefs, and I feel that I would like to say just a few words as
to why I would not care to answer this question.
The Chairman. It is not the case of whether you care to answer or
not. It is a question of do you or do you not answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
jMr. Yellin. Mr. Congressman, let me put it this way then : I will
refuse to answer that question, and I would like the privilege
The Chairman. "Wliat is the question, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was where the witness lived prior to
September 1957.
The Chairman. And you feel honestly that if you answer the
question of where you lived before September of last year, you miglil
be confronted with a criminal prosecution, is tliat it?
jNIr. Yellin. No. I didn't say that.
The Chairman. You did not say that, but is that not what you
mean?
Mr. Yellin. May I say what my objections are ? If I can say what
they are
The Chairman. Go ahead
]Mr. Yellin. Then you can question.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Yellin. Since I received the subpena to appear before this
committee, I did the natural thing. I contacted counsel. I wrote to
various sources for whatever legal information I could get, and I
went to the public library to study as much of the law as I could.
Now, just the fact of being called before this committee creates a
certain impression in the public eye which I do not like. I don't like
to have my loyalty questioned or my character questioned. I feel that
I have committed no crime. I have engaged in no acts
The Chairman. Isn't this the best place to clarify the atmosphere?
If you feel as you say you do, and I am sure that you do, is this not a
great opportunity to eliminate whatever question might be in any-
body's mind, particularly mine, about your activities ?
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Walter, I do not feel that this is the place for my-
self, as an individual and as a citizen, to discuss my beliefs, my asso-
ciations, or whatever expressions of opinion I have ever made. I feel
that ideas in the democratic process should be settled, should reach
some kind of an understanding, in the market place of ideas and not
at a congressional investigation. This is a personal opinion of mine.
I believe the entire democratic process revolves around settling things
in a free and open market, and this is not the place for it. This is a
hearing. It is not an expression of public opinion.
Furthermore, after conferring with my counsel
Mr. Scherer. We are not asking you about your ideas or opinions.
We are asking you about your activities within the conspiracy.
The Chairman. We are asldng his address.
1976 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. SciiERER. Tliat is what we are gomg to ask liim.
The Chairman. You don't know.
Mr. ScHERER. His activities with a conspiracy.
Mr. Yellin. After conferring with counsel, 1 can only come to one
conckision, and that is that this line of questioning would infringe
upon my rights under the first amendment to the Constitution. Now
the Supreme Court in its recent decision in the Watkins and Sweezy
cases has specilically stated that a legislative committee can only
investigate the area pertinent to legislation. Now, the Constitution of
the United States and the first amendment
The Chairman. May I interrupt you at that points I notice you
have carefully avoided the Barenblatt case that followed the two cases
that you mentioned, and in that case the Supreme Court held that we
were charged with doing just exactly what we are doing now. That
was U. S. against Barenblatt.
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Congressman, I ani not entirel}' familiar with the
Barenblatt case.
The Chairman. You expressed great familiarity with the Watkins
case.
Mr. Yellin. The Supreme Court referred that case back to the
court of appeals and the Supreme Court did not rule on this. It was
just the court of appeals of some sort which just made this ruling, not
the Supreme Court.
The Chairman. Then as a layman, I will straighten you out. What
the Supreme Court did was to say that the decision of the Circuit
Court of Appeals should stand and they refused to grant a writ of
certiorari to review it.
^[i'. Rabinowitz. As a lawyer, Mr. Chairman, I would like the
opportunity to straighten you out. But I guess this is not the chance.
The Chairman. You kind of lawyers could not straighten me out
on anything. Go ahead, please.
Mr. Yellin. May I continue, Mr. (/"ongressman? I am not a
lawyer.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. Let me interupt you a minute. You constantly
referred to "this line of questioning." The only question I have asked
you is where did you live pi/ior to September 1957.
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Tavenner
The Chairman. Certainly one question could not be construed as
a line of questions. You have been asked only one question.
Mr. Yellin. May I continue ?
The Chairman. Why don't you answer the question ? Where did
you live ? That is all we want to know.
Mr. Yellin. I heard the previous witness. I read proceedings of
this committee in past cases. I read the newspapers concerning the
liistory of this committee. If I say this line of questioning, I should
say this particular question. It is pretty obvious where the ques-
tions will lead from what has gone before. So it is no sense in pinning
it down and waiting to later. It is going to lead to a certain point.
There is no question about that.
Now the grounds on which I object are the following: That the
first amendment to the Constitution specifically says that Congress
shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. Now, therefore.
Congress cannot investigate in that area because they cannot legislate
(
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1977
in that area. Furthermore, nobody can investigate in my conscience,
in my personal beliefs. I have committed no unlawful acts; and,
therefore, any questioning can only lead to opinions, expressions, asso-
ciations, and beliefs and not any unlawful acts. Therefore, under the
first amendment, I think I am fairly reasonable in objecting to any
questions that will lead toward that line, investigating my freedoms.
Secondly, I am informed that the enabling resolution of the Con-
gress of the United States establishing this House Committee on
Un-American Activities is very vague and, theiefore, leads to the
possibility that I could not be accorded my rights under due process
of law, on the basis of the fact that the courts cannot properly judge
what the intent of this committee is due to the fact that it was estab-
lished under a rather vague resolution.
Furthermore, the courts have ruled that the only questions this
committee can ask me as an individual are questions which can be
pertinent to any legislation.
I don't feel this question is pertinent to any legislation the committee
might be investigating and, furthermore, as I said before, the com-
mittee cannot even investigate legislation pertaining to the first
amendment.
Therefore, I will have to respectfully submit that I cannot answer
that question.
The Chairman. You said, "I cannot." Of course, you are not under
any prohibition. You coulcl answer it. You mean, "I will not."
Mr. Yellin. I cannot under my own moral conscience to uphold the
traditions under which I believe.
The Chairmax. Then you do not ansA\er the question for those
reasons, is that it ?
Mr. Yellin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. SciiERER. Now, Mr. Chairman, so that the record is clear, I
ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. Where
did you live prior to September 1957 ?
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Congressman, under the reasons I have submitted,
I cannot answer that question.
The Chairman. You mean you do not answer.
Mr. Yellin. I w^ill not answer that question.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not rely, in your refusal to answer, upon the
self-inci'iminating clause of the fifth amendment. Is that correct?
Mr. Yellin. Yes, sii'. That is correct. T am relying on my first
amendment rights.
Mr. Ta\-enner. You were present when the opening statement was
made by the chairman of this connnittee, were you not?
Mr. Yellin. Yes, sir : I was present at that time.
Mr. Taa'enner. This is a hearing which involves a subject described
by the chairman, and it relates to Communist Party activities within
the area of Gary. As far as pertmency of the question is concerned,
as to which you seem to express some doubt, it would be impossible for
us to learn anything from you regarding Conmiunist Party activities in
this area without ascertaining whether or not you were here for a
period of time.
1978 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Xow, having explained that and given you that reason as a basis for
the committee's asking you that question, I would like to ask the chair-
man to again direct the witness to answer.
The CiiAiR:NrAX. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Yei.lix. Mr. Congressman, I cannot answer that question for
the grounds already submitted.
The Chairman. By tliat you mean that you do not answer. You
refuse to answer.
Mr. Yellix. I will not answer.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Tavexner. Mr. Yellin, will you give the committee, please,
briefly, your formal educational training ?
Mr. Yellin. I believe, and I think the grounds I have already
stated are sufficient, that any investigation into my educational back-
ground can serve no legislative purposes, is a violation of my rights
under the first amendment ; and I will not answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. Would you repeat that please ?
The Chahjman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Eabinow'itz. He asked the c{uestion be repeated.
Mr. Yellin. I asked it be repeated.
The Chairman. "Wliat question ?
Mr. Yellin. The last statement addressed to me.
The Chairman. You declined to answer that. "VYhat did you think
you declined to answer ?
Mr. Yellin. I declined to answer any questions pertaining to my
education.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead.
JNIr. Tavenner. Is it not a fact that you were a student at the College
of the City of Xew York for several years prior to 1948 ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Tavenner, I will refuse to answer that question
under the grounds already stated; but it just occurs to me that if
the committee knows all these things, I can't see the purpose or the
pertinency of asking me what they consider a known fact. Further-
more, it kind of appears to me as if this line of questioning is merely
trjdng to create an impression and expose me for the sake of merely
exposing me and not leading to any valid legislative purpose.
The Chairman. I will assure you that that is farthest from the
intention of anybody on this committee, and this committee has never,
for the mere salve of ex])osing, asked a question.
And now I would like to ask you : What do you mean by exposing
you ? Exposing you to what ?
Mr. Yellin. Well, Mr. Congressman, there has been a great deal
of discussion, public discussion, in the newspapers, especially since
the Supreme Court decision in Watkins and Sweezy ; and pertaining to
education, there has been a great deal of discussion in the newspapers
about certain lagging that we are doing in our educational system.
I should say rather that we have not reached our full potential in our
educational system.
The Chairman. Perhaps too many people have been directing their
a ttention to tlie wrong things.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1979
Mr. Yellin. Well, perhaps. One of the often expressed opinions at
the universities and in the newspapers is that one of the reasons we
have not reached our full potential is due to tlie fact that freedom of
education, freedom of thought, has been, to a large extent, suppressed
by committee investigations specifically of this type and of the type
Senator McCarthy conducted. This is common knowledge at the uni-
versities. People are beginning to feel that freedom of thought and
the expression of ideas — whether they be right or wrong, conform to
what the majority believe or not — should be settled in a market place
of ideas freely without being suppressed.
The CHAiRMAisr, All right now.
Mr. Yellin. Now if I remember
The Chairman. We have heard that speech. Will you answer the
question about your education ?
Mr. Yellin. You haven't heard it from me, sir.
The Chairman. What about the 2 years you were at the New York
University or wherever it was ?
Mr. Tavenner. City College of New York.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Congressman, Mr. Tavenner, I have already stated
sufficient groimd for refusing to answer that kind of question.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to ofi'er in evidence a photo-
static copy of the college record of Edward Yellin, at the University
of Michigan. The first was in the College of Literature, Science and
Arts.
May it be marked "Yellin Exhibit No. 1 V'
Mr. ScHERER. Did you say at the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Let it be received.
(The document referred to was marked "Yellin Exhibit No. 1.")
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr Tavenner. An examination of this exhibit, Mr. Chairman,
reflects that Edward Yellin was transferred from the College of the
City of New York to the University of Michigan.
And in this connection I would like to introduce "Edward Yellin
Exhibit No. 2," an additional official record from the University of
Michigan, which I will ask to be marked No. 2.
The Chairman. All right.
(The document referred to was marked "Yellin Exhibit No. 2.")
Mr. Rabinowitz. May I see that ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
(A document was handed to Mr. Rabinowitz.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I call your attention to the fact
that Exhibit No. 2 shows that Edward Yellin was admitted to the
University of Michigan in February 1948 from the College of the City
of New York and Exhibit No. 1 indicates that he was transferred from
the College of Literature, Science, and Arts at the University of Mich-
igan to the engineering department at that university in September
1048. It reflects his grades, sliovriug a gi'ade of A in many subjects.
^P.ITS— 5S— — 3
1980 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(Yellin Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 follow:)
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COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
1981
]982 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr, Tavenner. Mr. Yellin, I hand you a photostatic copy of appli-
cation for employment at the Carnegie-Illinois Steel Corporation.
You will examine it please and state whether or not that appears to
be a copy of an application filed by j^ou.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Yellin. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds which
I have already stated.
]\Ir. Taa^enxer. Will you examine it j)lease and state whether your
name appears at the foot of that application ?
Mr, Yellin. I will. I cannot and will not answer that question,
Mr. Tavenner, on the gi'ounds already stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Yellin Exhibit
No. 3 the docmnent referred to and ask that it be marked "Yellin
Exhibit No. 3."
The Chairman. For what purpose are you offering it ?
Mr. TA^^NNER. For the purpose of establishing the time that he
came to Gary, Indiana, and the additional purpose of showing what
he represented on his application to his would-be employer with
regard to his education.
The Chairman. Did he represent that he had not been to college?
Mr. TA^■ENNER. His representation was as to his former school work
at Stuyvesant, which I believe is a high school in the State of New
York, with no answer under the word "college," or any other educa-
tion.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Is the document admitted?
The Chair]\ian. The document is admitted.
C50MMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1983
(Document marked "Yellin Exhibit No. 3," follows :)
Yellin Exhibit No. 3
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1984 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
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COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1985
Mr. Tavenner. INIr. Yellin, I read from this document that it is
dated June 23, 1949. Where \yere yon on Jnne 23, 1949 ? Where were
you residing?
Mr, YELLI^^ Mr. Tavenner. I will not ansAver that question on the
grounds I have already stated.
Mr. Taa-enner. Did you live at 400 Jeft'erson Street in Gary, in the
State of Indiana, at that time ?
Mr. Yellin. I Avill not answer that question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I read from Exhibit No. 3, a statement of previous
employment by the applicant: From Steptember 1946 to February
1948 at the Reo Motor Company at Lansing, Michigan. Were you
ever actually employed hy tliat company ?
Mr. Yellin. 1 ref rise to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 show that you were at the
University of Michigan at Ann Arbor between February of 1948 and
at the end of the second semester of the year 1948-49, which meant
approximatel}" in June of 1949. Yet we see as ;in employment given
by you on Exhibit Xo. 3, that you were employed from February 1948
to April 1948 at Modern Distributors, Michigan. Were you so em-
ployed there?
Mr. Yellin. I Avill not answer that question, sir, on the grounds
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Your record of employment shows also employment
in April 1948 to May 1949 at Reo Motor's at Lansing, Michigan.
Wei-e you ever so emj^loj^ed?
Mr. Yellin. I refuse to answer under the grounds already stated,
sir.
Mr. Ta\'enner. '^'V^iy did you give that record of employment and
fail to indicate that you had attended college at the City College of
New York and that you had been in the engineering department and
the academic department of the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Yellin. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
already stated,
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Is it not a fact that at the time you sought that
employment in Gary, Indiana, in steel, you were doing it at the in-
stance or under counseling from the Communist Party or leaders in
the Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. I will have to refuse to answer that question on the
grounds already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
incidents came to your attention of the colonization of the steel unions
in Garv by the Communist Party at any time prior to September
1957? '
Mr. Yellin. Sir, I cannot answer that question on tlie grounds
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. One of the grounds that you stated was that you
did not see the pertinency of what you referred to as "this line of
questioning." Do you mean to reiterate that as a part of your answer
to the question I have just asked you ?
1986 COMMUNIST IM'ILTKATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. Mr. Taveniier, I mean to reiterate all of tlie reasons
1 have given
The Chaiioiajst. Then exphiin, Mr. Tavenner, the reasons-
Mr. Yellin. As grounds. They are all grounds for refusal to
answer.
The Chairman. Explain, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. It lias been testified here that colonization of young
men in the middle of their educational courses in industry was a deep-
seated plan of the Communist Party to strengthen itself within basic
industry. The chairman's opening statement indicated that the acti-
vities of the Communist Party within basic industries was the sub-
ject of inquiry here.
Let me ask you: You were present during the testimony of the
former witness?
Mv. Yellin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Taa^nner. The statement was made here of the practice of the
Communist Party in colonizing industry at Flint, Michigan; at the
University of Colorado, which is at Fort Collins, Colorado, where you
now reside ; and other places.
In order to understand the full tactics of the Communist Party in
its operations here in Gary, it is necessary the committee understand
fully the extent of such practices, the full purposes of it, and the
methods by which it is put into effect. That is the connective reason-
ing of the committee in asking the question. It is certainly apparent
from that explanation.
So with that explanation, Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be
again directed to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Yellin. ]Mr, Congressman, I am fully aware, on the basis of
the previous witness's testimony and on the basis of what committee
counsel has just said, that certain impressions will be created in the
public eyes as regards myself as an individual. However, I cannot,
in good conscience or within legal protection, answer that question
on the grounds I have already stated,
Mr. Scherer. I think a very bad impression will be created in the
public mind because of 3^our making at least 5 misrepresentations on
your application for employment to the Carnegie-Illinois Steel Cor-
poration.
Mr. Yellin. I realize there will be many bad impressions created
but, as I said, I am powerless to straighten out those impressions at
this time.
The Chairman. I could not conceive of a better place to straighten
out all these impressions. All you have to do is answer these questions.
Did you state, or were you asked, where j^ou are now employed?
"\Aniere you are employed at the present time?
INIr. Yellin. I Avill decline to answer that question on the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Scherer, I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.
The Chairman, You are directed to answer the question, where are
you employed ?
Mr. Yellin. I will decline to answer that question, sir, on the
gi'ounds stated.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1987
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Neafus Chib of the
Communist Party at the University of Michigan ?
Mr, Yellin. I will decline to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person at the Univer-
sity of Michigan by the name of Francis X. T. Crowley ?
Mr. Yellin. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
already stated, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Crowley testified before the Committee on Un-
American Activities in June of 1954, at which time he identified you as
a member with him of the Neafus Club of the Communist Party at
Ann Arbor. Was he correct in his identification of you ?
Mr. Yellin. I will decline to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds I have already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
the 23d day of June 1949, which is the date of application filed in your
name for employment in Gary ?
Mr. Yellin. I will decline to answer that question on the grounds
I have already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I have a direction that that
question be answered in light of the explanation already made ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Yellin. I decline to answer, sir.
The Chairman. Do you understand that when Mr. Tavenner asks
you a question about a man who testified that you and he were members
of a Communist group at the University of Michigan, this testimony
was under oath. This man swore that you and he were members of
the Communist Party. Did you understand that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. Do I understand that he was under oath ?
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Yellin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Weie you active in the American Veterans Com-
mittee prior to June 1949 ^
Mr. Yellin. I will have to decline to answer that. I think it is a
violation of my freedom of associations.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name
of Edward Shaffer from Pittsburgh ?
Mr, Yellin, I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr, Ta\t.nner, During the examination of Edward Shaffer before
this committee during the conduct of hearings in 1954, in fact, in JNIay
1954, there was introduced in evidence a photostatic copy of the Detroit
News bearing the date of January 7, 1949, entitled "Three Heed AVC
Ban on Reds," It is Exhibit No, 2 in that hearing. I will read part
of that exhibit :
Three students resigned today from the University of Michigan chapter of the
American Veterans Committee because of a ruling adopted by the national AVC
[meaning American Veterans Committee] convention in November calling for
the ouster of members who belonged to the Communist Party.
They were [that is, the three who resigned] William Carter, 3473 Townsend
Avenue, Detroit; Edward Shaffer, of Pittsburgh; and Edward Yellin, of New
York.
1988 COMMUiSIJ^T INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Was your action at that time correctly reported by the Detroit
News?
Mr. Yellin. I will decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Tantenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not in 1957
there were present in any of the steel unions at Gary, Indiana, persons
who were known to you to have been colonizers of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Yellin. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Taatenner. Mr. Chairman, in light of the explanation made of
the pertinency of this line of questioning, I request the witness be
directed to answer the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mr. Yellin.
Mr. Yellin. On the grounds I have previously stated, I will not
answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Those grounds do not include the invocation of the
fifth amendment against self-incrimination ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Yellin. They do not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
August of 1957?
Mr. Yellin. I will decline to answer that question on the grounds
I have stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee what stand the Com-
munist Party took in Gary in any of its units with regard to the acts
of the Soviet Union in Hungary in 1956 ?
Mr. Yellin. I will decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction that the witness answer
that question ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mr. Wit-
ness.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Yellin. I decline to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. TA^^NNER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you have any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(T^Hiereupon, at 12 : 14 p. m., February 10, 1058, the conmiitteo
recessed, to reconvene at 2 p. m., the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 1958
(Members present at the convening of the afternoon session were :
Congressmen Walter and Scherer.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tamcnner. Mr. Nicholas M. Busic, will you come forward,
please?
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Busic. I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1989
TESTIMONY OF NICHOLAS M. BUSIC, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
VICTOR RABINOWITZ
Mr. Busic. Nicholas M. Busic.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Eabinowitz of New York.
And may I at this time make the same request that I did with respect
to the previous witness, respecting the exchange of telegrams between
myself and the committee ?
The Chairman. Let the record note the request.
Mr, Tavenner. How do you spell your name ?
Mr. Busic. B-u-s-i-c.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Busic ?
Mr. Busic. November 26, 1895.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Busic. At 4681 Massachusetts.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. In Gary ?
Mr. Busic. In Gary.
Mr. TA\rENNER. How long have you lived in Gary ?
Mr. Busic. Since June 1936
Mr. Ta\t3nner. Mr. Busic
Mr. Busic. Pardon me, since May 1936.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Mr. Busic, will j'ou advise the committee, please,
whether or not the Communist Party is engaged in Communist Party
activities at this time within any labor union in the steel industry in
Gary?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I am not a lawyer, and I am not college educated. I
only had three years' school in the old countiy. Therefore, I refuse to
answer on the following grounds :
1. The committee has no right to ask me question about my political
beliefs under the first amendment.
2.
The Chairman. Let me interrupt you there. We are not asking
you about your beliefs at all. We are asking you whether or not the
Communist Party is engaged in activities in Gary.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds as I al-
ready stated.
Mr. Tavenner. AVhat was that ground ?
Mr. Busic. 1. The committee has no right to ask me questions about
my political belief under the first amendment.
2.
Mr. Tavenner. About your what ?
Mr. Rabinowitz. Political beliefs.
Mr. Busic. Political beliefs.
2. The resolution creating the committee is vague and uncertain.
3. The investigation is beyond the power of the committee.
4. The question is not material to any proper subject of investi-
gation.
5. The committee may not ask questions just for the purpose of
exposure.
1990 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you actually understand, do you not, that the
question of Communist Party activities in steel here in Gary is perti-
nent to the subject of the investigation ? Do you not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I can't argue witli you, Mr. Congressman, and therefore
I refuse to answer the question on the grounds as already stated.
Mr. Ta^^nner. If this committee is investigating the extent, char-
acter, and objects of Communist Party propaganda activities within
steel, the question I ask you is certainly pertinent. You agree to that,
do you not, when I ask you the question of whether you have knowledge
of the very thing which this committee is investigating ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I don't think I have to answer that question on advice of
my lawyer.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you present this morning when the chairman
of the committee read liis opening statement ?
Mr. Busic. I was present, but I was way back, and I can't hear very
well.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, then, to be certain that you understand what
the subject is, I will state again what the chairman stated and that
is that the committee is undertaking to receive evidence regarding the
techniques and strategy of the Communist Party in infiltrating unions
within the steel industry and also the extent of Communist Party prop-
aganda within the steel industry. Those are the subjects.
Now the question that I ask you is a very simple one and that is :
Tell this committee what knowledge you have regarding Communist
Party activities that are being engaged in now in the steel industry in
Gary.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer on the same grounds I already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I don't think I can make it any
plainer than that. I, therefore, ask that the chairman direct the
witness to answer.
The Chairman. The witness is directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed as a steelworker
by the U. S. Steel Corporation ?
Mr. Busic. It will be 22 years on 20th of next June.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
at any time within the past 2 or 3 years you have been affiliated with
an organized group of the Communist Party within the steel industry ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I haven't been member of the Communist Party for over
a year.
Mr. Tavenner. For over a year ?
Mr. Busic. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Then when was it that you left the Communist
Party, what time of year ?
Mr. Rabinowitz. I have some difficulty because the witness does not
hear very well, and it is a little hard to communicate in whispers
here.
Mr. Tavenner. Take your time.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1991
The Chairman. We promise not to listen.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not trying to eavesdrop.
Mr. Rabinowitz. No. I know you are not.
Mr. Tavenner. I know what you are telling him.
Mr. Rabinowitz. I don't mind saying it out loud. Then we would
all hear.
The Chairman. We know what you are telling him.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer any questions before a year ago, better
than a year ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I ask you what time in 1957 was it that you
left the Commnunist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I can't exactly remember; therefore, I refuse to answer.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Was it in the early part of the year or the latter part
of the year ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
]\lr. Busic. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first learn an investigation of com-
munism was to be made in this area ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. When I got the subpena.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any dispute within the Communist
Party which led to your withdrawing from it last year ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
I already stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. "Wliat type of Communist Party activities was being
carried on within the steel industry at the time you left the party?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer on the same grounds that I already
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I have a direction that he an-
swer that question ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds
I stated.
The Chairman. As I understand it, the record discloses that up to
about a year ago you were a member of the Communist Party.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Is that correct ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I didn't admit that I ever been member of the Com-
munist Party.
The Chairman. How could you get out of the Communist Party
if you had never been it it ?
Mr. Rabino\vitz. He didn't say that he got out of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness said ho hadn't been a member for the
past year.
Mr. Rabinowitz. That is true.
The Chairman. Well, were you a member before a year ago?
1992 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer on the same grounds that I stated.
The Chairman. But you say tliat you have not been a member
for a year ?
Mr. Busic. That is true.
The Chairmax. Is it logical for me to assume then that before that
year you were a member ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. It is your business to assume whatever you please.
The CuAiRiMAN. I knov^' it is my business to assume anything I like,
Mr. Busic. I can't help what you assume.
The Chairman. You would not like me to tell you what I have as-
sumed, though, would you ?
Go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Busic, what was the membership of the Com-
munist Party within the steel industry at the time you left it about a
year ago?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer on the same grourids.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
about a year ago the Communist Party in this area was making an
effort to reorganize and re-establish itself within the steel industry?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
1 already stated.
Mr. TA^t'ENNER. May I ask a direction, please ?
The ChxVirman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Where are you employed in the steel industry, in
what plant?
Mr. Busic. In 44 blooming mill.
Mr. Tavenner. Where is that located ?
Mr. Busic. It is located right close to the lake, north.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Busic. When I first got hired, I got that job there, and I am
still there on the same line, on the same yard, the same department.
Mr. Tavenner. Has there been an organized group of the Commu-
nist Party within that plant in the past 6 years ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. When I asked you when and where you were born,
you told me the date of your birth; but you did not tell me where
you were born.
Mr. Busic. Yugoslavia.
Mr. Tavenner. Yugoslavia?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1993
Mr. Busic. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. Busic. 1913.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Busic. I am, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you naturalized?
Mr. Busic. 1928 in Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
time you were naturalized as an American citizen ?
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been identified or affiliated in the last few
years, I would say at any time within the last 5 years, with an
organization, a foreign-language group known as Karageorge?
The Chairman. What is it ?
Mr. Tavenner. K-a-r-a-^-e-o-r-g-e.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that a language group in which there were
persons known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?
]Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
as I stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
January 1,1957?
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
I already stated.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
December 28, 1940 ?
Mr, Busic. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds
I already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a certificate bear-
ing date December 28, 19-10 purportedly signed by Nicholas M. Busic.
Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not you sigTied it ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner, I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Busic Exhibit No. 1,"
The Chairman. Mark it and let it be made a part of the record.
1994 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(The document referred to marked "Biisic Exhibit No. 1" follows : )
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COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1995
The Chairman. jSlay I see it, please ?
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
Tlie Chaiemax. Does this Gary Works Maintenance Department
mean Gary ^^"orks, United States Steel i
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Busic. I don't know what it means.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenxek. You say you do not understand what this means?
Did I understand you to say that you do not understand what this
paper means ?
^Ir. RABIX0^^^TZ. Let me see.
(The document was handed to Mr. Rabinowitz.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. Yes, called Gary Works.
Mr. Tavexxek. You do know now ?
Mr. Busic. Yes, I do now.
Mr. Tavexx'er. What does it mean ?
Mr. Busic. Gary Works.
Mr. Tavex'x^er. The place were you work ?
Mr. Busic. Yes, called the Gary Works.
Mr. Taa-exxer. And you were employed there ?
Mr. Busic. Yes.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavexxer. Now it bears the date of December 28, 1940. Were
you a member of the Communist Party at that time?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
I stated already.
Mr. Tavenxer. I will read you a part of this certificate: It says:
I hereby certify that I jun not, and will not become during the course of my
employment, a member of the Communist Party or the German-American Bund.
You remember that, do you not ^
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic, I refuse to answer on the same grounds that I already
stated.
Mr. Ta\^xxer. Were yon telling the truth when you certified to
your employer that you were not a member of the Communist Party
on December 28, 1940 ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Ta^t:xxer. When you signed this certificate on December 28,
1940, were you intending to tell the truth, when you stated, "I will
not become during the course of my employment a member of the Com-
munist Party''?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Tavexxer. In fact, you knew when you signed this document
that you would not abide by what you stated you would abide by,
didn't you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds
that I already stated.
23178—58 4
1996 COMMUNIST INFILTKATION IK BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. SciiERER. AVero you a moinbor of the German-iVmorican Bund?
(The witness conferred with his counseL)
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
that I already stated.
Mr. Tavexner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairiman. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, I have some questions.
You say that you have not been a member of the Communist Party
durino- the last year. Have j^ou been a Communist during the last
year ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Irrespective of party membership, have you been a
Communist during the last year ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I don't understand.
Mr. Scherer. I just asked whether you had been a Communist
during the last year.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ScirERER. You know what a Communist is. You said you had
not been a member of the Communist Party during the last year.
Now, I am asking you whether you had been a Communist, irrespec-
tive of whether you carried party membership or not ?
Mr. Busic. I don't understand the question.
Mr. Scherer. How could you understand the question that was
asked you as to whether you had been a member of the Communist
Party if you cannot understand my question now, or claim not to
understand my question now, as to whether you are presently a
Communist ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. I cannot understand.
Mr. Scherer. Have you been under Communist discipline in the
last year ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. No.
Mr. Scherer. Have you associated with members of the Communist
Party or Conmiunists during the last year ?
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I did not hear your last answer.
Mr. Busic. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
that I already stated.
Mr. Scherer. Have you taken any instructions from members of
the Communist Party or from Communists during the last year?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Busic. No.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tamsnner. Mr. Robert Kates, will you come forward, please?
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kates. I do.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1997
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT (W.) KATES, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ALBERT H. GAVIT
Mr. Tavenner. What is yonr name, please, sir ?
Mr, Kates. Robert Kates.
Mr. Tavexner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Gavit. Yes, sir. My name is Albert H. Gavit, attorney, 504
Broadway, Gary, Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Kates?
Mr. Kates. I was born in Brooklyn, N. Y., on January 31, 1929.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Gary ?
Mr. Kx^TES. I do, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you come to Gary ?
Mr. Kates. I came to Gary roughly 9 years and lli/^ months ago.
Mr. Tavenner. That would be in what year ?
Mr. Kates. 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Kates. My formal education has been that I have been to grade
school, high school, and I have had roughly 2i/^ years of college.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Kates. At New York University, and I am presently enrolled at
Indiana University.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you enrolled in New York University ?
Mr. Kates. Roughly for the years 1947 and '46.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
Mr. IvATES. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your purpose in coming to Gary ?
Mr. Kates. To secure employment.
Mr. Tavenner. What type of employment ?
Mr. Kates. A job tluit would pay me sufficient for my needs and my
wife and I.
Mr. TA^^NNER. I mean employmen.t in what line of work ?
Mr. Kates. I repeat, sir, a job, whatever I could find in the line of
work that it would be sufficient to pay me.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been employed in the steel industry ?
Mr. Ivates. I have, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that your hrst employment in Gary ?
Mr. Kates. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you employed in steel ?
Mr. Kates. At Gary Works, 36-inch slabbing mill, U. S. Steel
Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that known as the Big Mill ?
Mr. Kates. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When you left New York City to take up employ-
ment here at Gary, did you anticipate being employed in the steel
industry ?
Mr. IvATES. I had hopes of it, sir, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you advised or counseled by any member of
the Communist Party in New York to seek employment in Gary <*
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. IvATES. Not as far as I know, sir.
1998 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. TA^^ENNER. What do you mean by tliat — not so far as yon
know?
Mr. Kates. "Well, I discussed my leaving with my wife, relatives,
friends ; and as far as I Imow, I wasn't counseled.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you discuss it with any member of the Com-
munist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. Not as far as I know, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. After obtaining employment in the Big Mill, did
you find that there existed in that mill an organized group of the
Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Kates. I respectfully decline to answer because the information
sought is outside the powers granted this committee in its appoint-
ment, or that could be granted it, and would infringe and deny my
riglits under the first and fourth amendments to the Constitution of
the United States, which rights I here assert and rely on.
Mr. SciiERER. Just a moment. May I ask a question ?
Do I understand you are not relying on the fifth amendment in re-
fusing to answer that question ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I am not relying on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Then, Mr. Chairman, I ask tliat you direct the witness
to answer tlie question whether or not he became acquainted with any
Communist Party activities.
The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Kates. I only repeat that I decline to answer on the grounds I
previously stated.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you stated you are enrolled at the present
time in an Indiana institution ?
Mr. Kates. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavennt;r. Are you still employed in the Big Mill ?
Mr. Kates. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
you have observed Communist Party propaganda activities within the
Big Mill at any time within the past 2 j^ears ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I repeat that I decline to answer on tlie grounds I
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. You understand the pertinency of that question to
the subject of this hearing ; do you not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I repeat that I decline to ansAver on the grounds I pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Wait a minute, I think he should answer whether
he understands the pertinence, because the courts charge us witli the
duty of asking him whether he understands the pertinency of the
question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. He has to answer tliat question yes or no as to i)er-
tinency.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 1999
Mr. Kates. As to pertinency, I repeat my original objections, that
all this questioning is outside the powers granted this committee in
its appointment or could be granted it.
Mr. ScHERER. It wasn't the question asked you by counsel. He asked
you whether you understood the pertinency of the question he asked
you, as to how that question related to the hearing. Do you com-
prehend how that question is related to the purpose of these hearings?
Mr. Kates. I can only repeat that it is not pertinent — that I think
it is not pertinent, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed
to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I can only repeat the objection I raised as previously
stated.
INIr. Ta\-enner. I am not certain that the way in which I asked that
question that the record shows that the direction was made as to the
original question. So I will ask it again : Please tell this committee
what Communist Party propaganda activities have been conducted
at the Big Mill during the past 2 years or at any time during the past
2 years.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I can only repeat that I decline to answer on the grounds
I previously stated, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Kates. I repeat that I decline to answer on the grounds I pre-
viously stated.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. ScHERER. Pardon me, just a minute.
When the chairman directs you to answer the question, you under-
stand that we do not accept the grounds which you give for refusal
to answer the questi on. You understand that, do you not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I understand it, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time during the past 2 years ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kates. I decline to answer on the grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you first took employment with the Big Mill ?
Mr. Kates. I decline to answer on the gi'ounds I previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, again I think there should be a direc-
tion to answer that question, because that is the very heart of the
question.
The Chairman. Yes. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Kates. I can only repeat that I decline to answer on the grounds
I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
1950?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
2000 COMMUNIST IXFILTRATION IX BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Kates. I can only repeat that I decline to answer on the grounds
I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time serve as a member of the Com-
munist Party, Steel Section, or the Steel Section of the Communist
Party in Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kai-es, I can only repeat that I decline to answer on the grounds
I previously stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairmax. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
The Chairmax. No further questions.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Alfred Samter.
The Chairmax. Will you raise you right hand, please? Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Samter. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALFEED JAMES SAMTER, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavexxer. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Samter. My name is Alfred James Samter.
Mr. Scherer. I did not get the last name.
Mr. Samter. Samter.
Mr. Ta\t:xxer. Will you spell your last name, please ?
Mr. Samter. S-a-m-t-e-r.
Mr. Tavexxer. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Meyers. My name is Irving Meyers. I am from Chicago.
At this time I would like to inquire whether you have seen my tele-
gram of last Saturday. If not, I would like to present it now, and I
would like to have a response to it, if I may. It is a telegram request-
ing an executive hearing.
The Chairmax. I would like to see it.
Mr. Tavexxer. I had not seen it because I w^as here Saturday. I
guess your telegram was sent to Washington.
Mr. ]\Ieyers. That is right. On behalf of this client and a number
of others.
The Chairmax. Of course, this request is based on a false premise.
If it is in the nature of a request, we can only do what we have always
done in cases of this kind, and that is refuse to grant the request.
Mr. ISIeyers. May I have the request entered in the record on behalf
of this client and all the other clients I represent ?
The Chairmax. Yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. It may be.
The Chairmax. Yes. Why did you wait until Saturday to send
me the telegram ?
Mr. Meyers. I interviewed my clients on Saturday. A number of
them received subpenas during the week, and it took some time for
us to get together.
Mr. TA^^;xxER. When and where were you born, Mr. Samter ?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2001
The Chairman. Let us oet liis address first. We nej^lected to do
that with tlie last witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Samter. I reside in Gary.
Mr. Tav'enner. Where in Gary ?
Mr. Samter. The address is 501 East 47th Place.
Mr. Taa^nner. When and wliere were you born ?
Mr. Samter. I was born on January 27, 1922, in New York City.
Mr. TA^^NNER. AVhen did you first come to Gary ?
Mr. Samter. Approximately 9 years ago.
Mr. Tavenner. About 1948 or 1949 ?
Mr. Samter. 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. 1949?
Mr. Samter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What time of year?
Mr. Samter. Spring.
Mr. Tam<:nner. Where were you residing immediately prior to your
coming to Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. New York City.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Have you been in Gary since that time, 1949 ?
Mr. Samter. I beg your pardon ?
Mr, TAi^ENNER. Have you lived in Gary continuously since 1949?
Mr. Samter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Taa^nner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training lias been ?
Mr. Samter. I am a high school graduate.
Mr. Ta^^enner. Have you had any other training — educational
training ?
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
Mr. Samter. Are you referring to college training, Mr. Attorney ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. Any school traniing.
(The witness conferrevl with his counsel.)
Mr. Sainiter. I don't believe that this committee is empowered to
inquire into my education under the charter of the committee, which
I don't completely understand. Anyhow, I don't believe that the
qiiestion on my education is pertinent, and I do believe it is an inva-
sion of my civil rights under the first amendment to the Constitutioi^,
so I will decline to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Why did you tell us then, when asked about your
education, that you had a high school education and now decline to go
further ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I repeat the same answer under the same rights that
I previously stated.
Mr. SciiERER. Have you been a student at any Communist Part.y
training school ? Let us get right to it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. Same answer as previously stated.
Mr. SciiERER. I put it to you as a fact that you have been a student
id a Communist Party training school and ask you now, while you are
under oath, either to affirm or deny that fact.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. Same answer as previously stated.
2002 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenxeu. Did you, in your application for emploj^ment, refuse
to tell your employer what your educational training had been?
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. SA:\r r?:R. I am sorry. I don't understand your question.
Mr. Tavexner. Well, you have refused to tell this committee what
educational training you have had. My question was, did you also
refuse to tell your employer when you filed your application for
employment what your educational training had been?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
jSIr. SAiM-raR. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
you have no right to inquire into my personal relationships under the
first amendment and also on the previous grounds that I stated.
Mr. SciiERER. You are not refusing to answer on the basis of any
right you might claim to have under the fifth amendment, are you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I assert my right to due process under the fifth amend-
ment, but as far as any other part of the fifth amendment, I am not
asserting that right.
Mr. SciiERER. You are not refusing to answer on the basis of that
part of the fifth amendment which gives you the right to refuse to
answer on the grounds that to answer might tend to incriminate you.
Is that right?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. That is correct.
Mr. ScuERER. Then I ask, Mr. Chairman, that you direct him to
answer the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Samter. I still refuse to answer under the same basis.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Ta^-enner. Did you attend the American Radio Institute ?
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Sa^iter. I refuse to answer that question under the grounds
previously stated.
;Mr. Tamsnner. Upon your coming to Gary in 1949, did you imme-
diately identify yourself in an active way with the Communist Party?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds as
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a leader in the Communist Party, in
the Big Mill Unit of the Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds as
previously stated.
Mr. Tax-enner. What propaganda activities are being engaged in
now by the Communist Party group within the Big Mill where you
are employed?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Taatenner. Is tliere any question in your mind as to the per-
tinency of that question to the subject under inquiry here?
(The witnessed ronferrerl with his counsel.)
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2003
Mr. Samter. Yes, sir. First of all, I do not understand the per-
tinency. I do not believe it is pertinent to the inquiry. I do not
understand the purposes of the inquir3^ I do not believe it is pertin-
ent to the powers of the committee, and I do not understand com-
pletely what those powers of the committee are. I might add, Mr.
Counselor, that I believe that the courts are finding difficulty in de-
termining just exactly what the j)owers of this committee are, and I
certainly don't understand them.
JNIr. Ta%^xner. Well, the question of the powers of the committee
Avas not involved in my question in any way. It is hard for me to
understand that you, in good faith, do not understand the pertinency
of the question. But inasmuch as you say you do not understand it,
let me repeat again what the chairman stated in his opening state-
ment.
You were present at that time, were you not ?
Mr. Samter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. The chairman stated that the subject of this inquiry
was the receipt of testimony relating to the tactics and techniques
of Communist infiltration in the steel industry and the extent, charac-
ter, and objects of Communist Party propaganda within the steel in-
dustry, that is, within basic industry.
Now, when I ask you the question, or the committee asks the ques-
tion, as to what the Communist Party is doing now in the way of
propaganda within basic industry, that statement answers the perti-
nency raised by you.
So I will have to request that the chairman direct you to answer that
question in view of that explanation.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I refuse to answer on the same basis that I have on the
other question.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Aren't you actually the leader of the Conmiunist
Party in the mill group right now ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I refuse to answer on the basis of the same reasons
given.
Mr. Scherer. What do you actually do in the mill, Witness ? WTiat
is your job?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. Well, I work in a department which manufactures by-
products from the coke-making process in the coke plant.
Mr. ScpiERER. What do you do ? "WHiat is your exact work ?
Mr. Samter. Do you want my exact title, sir ?
Mr. Scherer. No. I want to know what you do. Do you do clerical
work ? Do you work on an assembly line ? Do you work in a foun-
dry, or what?
Mr. Samter. It is a department which is similar to an oil refinery.
Mr. Scherer. I am not asking about the department. I am asking
what you do. Wliat is the nature of your work ?
Mr. Samter. In order to describe what I do, Mr. Congressman, I
have to describe what type of department it is because it is not either
an assembly line or foundry, as you suggested. It is a distillation
unit, very similar to an oil refinery, in which materials, taken as by-
2004 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
products of coke-making process, are passed through steel and by-
product oils are made.
In this process, I turn valves; I direct the flows of these various
pieces of equipment ; I look at them to see that they are in working
order, and see that the pumps are running correctly and various many
duties such as those.
Mr. ScHEREK. All right.
Mr. TA^^3NNER. When you came to Gary to seek employment, did
you confer in New York Avith any member of the Communist Party
with regard to your coming to Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I decline to answer that question on tlie same grounds
as previously' stated.
The Chairjian. You are directed to answer that question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I decline to ansvrer on the same grounds as previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Did you attend any classes or schooling of any kind
in New York City preparing young men to go out in tlie labor field
to become leaders in the field of labor ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously
stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
the City of New York before coming to Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I decline to ansvrer on the grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever served in the Armed Forces of the
United States?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. When was that service ?
Mr. Samter. From 1942 until 1945. I don't recall the exact dates.
Mr. Scherer. In what branch of the service ?
Mr. Samter. Army.
Mr. Scherer. And where were you ? Wliat type of work did you
do in the Army ? '\"\^iat particular assignment did you have ?
Mr. Samter. I was a radio operator in an armored division.
Mr. Scherer. Eadio operator. And did you serve outside the con-
tinental United States ?
Mr. Samter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. "WHiere?
Mr. Samter. In Europe.
Mr. Scherer. And wliere did you live immediately prior to your
service in the Army ? What was your home residence ?
Mr. Samter. New York City.
Mr. Scherer. While you were in the Armed Forces of the United
States serving as a radio operator, were j^ou a member of the Commu-
nist Partj^ ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Samter. I decline to answer that on the same grounds as pre-
viously stated.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2005
Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Zack Kretheotis, will you come forward please?
Will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Mr. Kretheotis. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JACK (ZACK) KRETHEOTIS, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, DAVID P. STANTON
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir i
Mr. Kretheotis. Jack Kretheotis.
Mr. Taa-enner. Will you spell your name I
Mr. Kretheotis. K-r-e-t-h-e-o-t-i-s.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you say "Jack" ? Excuse me, I didn't under-
stand your first name.
Mr. Kretheotis. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Jack?
Mr. Kretheotis. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I pronounced it as Zack. I didn't know whether I
was incorrect.
Mr. Kretheotis. That is a nickname.
Mr. Tavenner. Which is the nickname ? J^ck or Zack ? But your
correct name is Zack ?
Mr. Kktheotis. That is a name that I have used for many, many
years.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your correct name ?
Mr. Kretheotis. At the present time it is Jack Kretheotis.
Mr. Tavenner. What other name have you used?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kretheotis. I used tlie name Zack. In fact, I have used that
name, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What other name have you used ?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kretheotis. Sir, on advice of counsel, I respectfully decline,
first, under the freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and right to
assemble peacefully clauses of the first amendment and Constitution
of the United States.
The Chairman. I direct 3'ou to answer the question as to what your
right name is.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kretheotis. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer, first, under
the freedom of speech, freedom of press, right to assemble peacefully
clauses of the first amendment to the Constitution of the United
States ; second, the question does not appear to me to be pertinent to
any subject tlie investigation of which was authorized by the Act of
Congress creating this committee ; third, the question does not appear
to me to be pertinent to the subject of inquiry as announced prior to
the commencement of this hearing; and fourth, under the self-
incrimination clause of the fifth amendment of the Constitution of the
United States.
The Chairman. Do you think you would be prosecuted criminally
if you told us what your name is ?
2006 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Ml*. Kretiieotts. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated,
sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that your nickname is Jack, that you
sometimes have been known as Zack, and that is an indication that
you are also known by some other name. Now, tell this committee
what that name is. It is a preparatory question. It is a matter of
identification.
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer, sir, for the reasons already
stated.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.
Will counsel please identify himself ?
Mr. Stanton. I wondered if you would get around to me.
Mr. Ta^'enner. If we could find out the name of your witness we
would.
Mr. Stanton. All right. Now you know him.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, if you would give us your name, sir.
The Chairman. Your right name.
Mr. Stanton. My right name. Stanton is my name. David P.
Stanton, a lawyer from Gary.
Mr. Tav-enner. When and where were you born, Mr. Kretheotis ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to ansAver for the reasons already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a citizen ?
Mr. Scherer. Just a moment. I think Ave ought to have a direction
there.
The Chairman. You are directed to ansAver the question.
Mr. Scherer. You understand, Witness, Avhen the chairman directs
you to ansAver the question it means that the committee refuses to
accept the reasons you advance for not answering the question ?
Mr. Kretheotis. Sir, I decline to ansAver for the reasons that I
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you served in the Armed Forces of tlie
United States?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to ansAA-er, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you direct the witness.
The Chairman. You are directed to ansAver the question.
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to ansAver for the reasons already stated,
sir.
Mr. Schekeh. IIoav could it possibly incriminate you to tell us
Avhether you served in the Armed Forces of the United States ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to ansAver for the reasons already stated,
sir.
ISIr. Taa'enner. AVhere do you noAv reside ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to aiiSAver for the reasons already stated,
sir.
Mr. Taatinner. Have you at any time within the past 5 years been
a member of an organized unit or group of the Communist Party
within the steel industry in Gary ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to ansAver, sir, for the reasons already
stated.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2007
Mr. Tavenner. Did you state, as among your reasons for refusing
to answer, that you relied upon the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Kretiieotis. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you honestly believe that to answer that ques-
tion might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now employed as a steel worker by U. S.
Steel?
Mr. Kretheotis. I declirie to answer for the reasons already stated,
sir.
Mr. ScHERER. I request tliat the chairman direct the witness to
answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. How
could that possibly incriminate you?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated.
Mr. Sciierer. Mr. Cliairman, it is obvious the witness is invoking
the fifth amendment improperly to that question, and at least this
member of the committee is of the opinion that he is in contempt.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Have you at any time served as a member of the
Steel Section of the Communist Party in Gary?
]Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated,
sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Coimnunist Party and,
as a Communist Party member, identified with a unit organized within
steel in 1950?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated,
sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Conmiunist Party
at any time within the last 2 years ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated.
Mr. TA\rENNER. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Kretheotis. I decline to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Ha'\^e you any questions, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. No.
The Chairman. There are no further questions. You are excused.
This committee will recess for five minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairman. The conxmittee will be in order.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joseph E. LaFleur, will you come forward,
please ?
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please, Mr.
LaFleur?
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ?
Mr. LaFletjr. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you. Have a seat, Mr. LaFleur.
TESTIMONY Or JOSEPH E. LaELEUR
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. LaFleur. Joseph E. LaFleur.
Mr. Tavenner. Could you spell your last name?
2008 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. LaFleuk. L-a-F-1-e-u-r.
Mi\ Tavenner. Mr. LaFleur, it is the practice of this conunittee to
advise all witnosses that they have a ri^ht to have counsel with them
during tlie course of their testimony, if they so desire. You have
that right the same as any other witness.
iMr. LaFleitr. I need no comisel.
Mr. Ta\^nxei{, When and where were you born, Mr. LaFleur ?
Mr. LaFleue. I was born in the upper peninsula of Michigan in a
town called Scliaffer, Mich.
Mr. TA\-ENXEit. The date of your birth ?
Mr. LaFlel-e. April 1, 1911.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. LaFleur. I reside at TOO Harrison, Gary, Ind.
Mr. Tavexner. How long have you lived in Gary, Ind. ?
Mr. LaFleur. It would be approximately 21 years this year.
Mr. Taat:nner. What has been your educational background ?
Mr. LaFleur. My educational background is grade school, 2 years
of high school, and self education.
Mr. Ta%tenker. You came to Gary in what vear ?
Mr. LaFleur. 1936.
Mr. TA^T.NXER. Wliat has been your principal emploj^ment in Gary
since that time?
Mr. LaFleur. My principal employment has been approximately
a year with IMontgomery Ward and the rest of the time with U. S.
Steel.
Mr. Tavenner. In what plant of U. S. Steel are you employed?
Mr. LaFleur. It is known as the Sheet and Tin Mill.
Mr. Ta^t3Nner. Are you employed there now ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. LaFleur, were you ever a member of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. I was.
Mr. Ta\'enner. When was that, Mr. LaFleur.
Mr. LaFleur. Approximately the better part of 1937.
Mr. Ta%^xner. Was that in Gary, Ind. ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavex^ner. How long were you a member ?
Mr. LaFleui^. As I indicated, approximately a year.
Mr. Tavexxer. Approximately a year ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\t3xxer. So that if you became a member in 1937 you
dropped out either in that year or 1938 ?
]\Ir. LaFleur. The latter part of the year ; yes, sir.
Mr. Taa-exxer. Did you at some later time become affiliated with
the Communist Party itself?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. What were the circumstances under which you
became associated with the Communist Party after having dropped
out of the Young Communist League ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, the circumstances were that the Federal Bu-
reau of Investigation was interested in getting a man that would go
into the Communist Party knowing his way around.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2009
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. There is a little noise in the heating
system. If you will speak a little louder, please, it is a little hard to
hear you.
Mr. LaFleur. Excuse me.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation was interested in getting a
man to go into the Connnunist Party ranks, M'ith which I was familiar,
and to give a factual account of what went on in Communist ranks.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of that, were arrangements made for
you to enter the Communist Party and report to the Federal Bureau
of Investigation?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What year did tliat occur?
Mr. LaFleur. That occurred approximately the spring of '42 or
earlier.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee what gave you an op-
portunity to actually get into the Communist Party ? Not the details
of how it was managed, but what gave you the opportmiity?
Mr. LaFleur. The opportunity, circumstances were such that I
could easily get back in, knowing my way around in Communist
circles, by having belonged to the YCL; there was a recruiting group
going on at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. So you permitted yourself to be recruited?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. TaA'Enner. Do you recall at this time the name of any indi-
vidual who was active in encouraging you to submit to recruitment?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was that?
Mr. LaFleur. Two of the brothers of Malis family and Tony Bur-
gess, now deceased.
Mr. Tavenner. AYliat members of the Malis family are you refer-
ring to?
Mr. LaFleur. I am referring to Cash, Chris Malis, and I am not
certain on the other one, but there was another one.
Mr. TAM3NNER. Casli. Now is Cash his real name or his nickname ?
Mr. LaFleur. Cash is a nickname.
Mr. Tavenner, And his real name is Chris ?
Mr. LaFleur. Chris.
Mr. Tavenner. I^Ialis. How do you spell Malis?
Mr. LaFleur. M-a-1-i-s.
Mr. Ta\tenner. As a result of the talk that you had with those
persons, did you become enrolled hi the Communist Party ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. At that time you were working: with
Mr. LaFleur. I Mas working at the Sheet and Tin Mill.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. What group of the Communist Party were you
assigned to when you first became a member ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, at that time it was just an organizational basis,
like a big community setup ; and I was immediately assigned to liter-
ature director or a^ent.
Mr. Tavenner. You became literature director imriiediately after
becoming a member?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir, almost immediately.
2010 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. What was the general nature of 3'oiir duties as
literature director ?
Mr. LaFleur. The nature of my duties was to distribute literature,
make it available at part}' nieetin<^s — in the main private party meet-
ings — and mass meetmgs and to talk on either
Mr. Tavenner. When you speak of literature, you are speaking of
Communist Party documents and leaflets and pamphlets ?
Mr. LaFleur. Exclusively.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. And books ?
Mr. LaFleur. Exclusively.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to know what other official positions
you had within the Communist Party.
Mr. LaFleur. Shortly after, I was appointed on the sustaining
fund committee.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the sustaining fund committee ?
Mr. LaFleur. The sustaining fund committee is funds collected
from regidar members, Communists, to sustain, in the main, the sec-
tion organizer and the organization branches and so forth.
Mr. Tavenner. To pay the salaries of the functionaries ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you serve on that committee?
Mr. LaFleur. I held that almost till — that is, the sustaining fund
committee job — almost till, oh, I would say, roughly '46.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold anv other positions in the Communist
Party?
Mr. LaFleur. In 1946, that is, the fall of '46, I was elected branch
chairman of the community branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, the community branch.
Mr. LaFleur, Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Well, I will ask you a little more about the organi-
zation setup later.
You were chairman of the community branch about how long ?
Mr. LaFleur. Approximately a year from '46 to the latter part of
'47.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any other positions ?
Mr. LaFleur. No, sir. That was about it, with the exception of
leadership committees, countv board, county council, and stuff like
that.
Mr. Tavenner. I think it might be well for you to describe the
organizational setup of the Comnumist Part}' here, both in the City
of Gary and in Lake County, just what the organizational setup of
the Communist Party was.
Mr. LaFleur. Well, basically, in its simplest form, they had a
County Section, what was known as a County Section, and a Com-
munity Section, and although they made many organizational changes
it remained basically the same. Steel was included in the County Sec-
tion, all the steel mills of the area.
Mr. Tavenner. The steel mills were in the County Section?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. So that the St-eel Section and the County Section
were virtually the same t
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavennek. Known n^; t he sa mo t h ing '.
Mr. LaFleuk. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2011
^Ir. Tavexner. How many different units or groiii)s were there in
the Steel Section of tlie Communist Paity ?
Mr. LaFleur. You mean steel mills, sir ?
Mr. Ta\t:xner. Yes.
Mr. LaFleue. Well, the Big Mill, the Sheet and Tin
Mr. Ta\^nner. Wait a minute. Not so fast. The Big Mill i
Mr. LaFleur. Yes.
Mr. Tavexner. Yes.
Mr. LaFleur. Sheet and Tin.
Mr. Tavexner. That is where you worked.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes. Youngstown, Inland.
Mr. Tavexxer. Inland?
Mr. LaFleur. Inland Steel.
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes.
Mr. LaFleur. And maybe one more. I can't think of it at tlie
moment.
Mr. Tavexxer. Then you spoke of the Gary section, the City Sec-
tion.
Mr. LaFleur. The City Section mainly was other workers that
worked out of steel, waiters, waitresses, business people, and even
outside of Gary, like Griffith, a snuill town outside that was included
in the community setup.
Mr. Tavex^x'er. How long a period of time were you active in the
Communist Party in behalf of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. LaFleur. As near as I can place it, it was 10 years.
yiv. Tavexxer. That would be from 1942 then to approximately
1052.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. I will ask you a little bit later about the circum-
stances which necessitated your getting out of the Conmiunist Party.
Now, we are considering here at this hearing testimony which will
be of some value to the connnittee in determining just what tactics
were used by the Connnunist Party in basic industry. That is the
principal thing that we are interested in. And then the extent and
the character and the objects of the Communist propaganda within
the steel unions. "Wliat can you tell tlie committee from your own
experience in the Communist Party about tlie interests of the Com-
munist Party in the establishment of Communist units witliin steel?
Mr. LaFleur. I understood even during the Avar years when How-
ard Lawrence was section organizer and being the leading figure in
the Communist community, he made it very plain that the concen-
tration sliould be on unions, where there is a large number of mem-
bers and they could gain control of these unions by intensive work.
The main theme was recruitment ; recruit and make these members
Communists, that was basic.
Mr. Tavex^xer. Was that plan carried out here of centering upon
the organization of men within the steel unions ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. It was carried out to a large extent in
the Big Mill and the other mill outside the Gary area. In Sheet and
Tin they were not too successful.
Mr. Tavexxer. Can you recall at this time what tlie usual mem-
l»prship of the Counnunist Party was within the steel unions at any
23178—58 5
2012 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
one time? Necessarily, it would fluctuate, from time to time, with
different members. But what was the normal membership of the
Communist Party in steel while you were in steel?
Mr. LaFleur. That would include just a County Section.
Mr. Tavexxer. That is while you were in the Communist Party ?
Mr. LaFleur. I would place it at 60 members, that is, dedicated
members, that is, I am not including the average rank-and-file in that.
It would have been much higher.
Mr. Tavenxer. Were many of those Communist Party members
in steel active in union affairs ?
JNIr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. At least, by their own word they were. We
had meetings of all sorts. We had to make proposals and perform
certain tasks and follow-up meetings after that. I was quite certain
that these people were Communists. I had seen all the evidence, that
is, mainly, the facts that the FBI was interested in. They were not
interested in my dreaming up anything. I reported what I had seen,
and they were actually Communists, all of them.
Mr. Tavexxer. Now, among this group of Connnunist Party mem-
bers who were employed in the steel industry, were there a number
of young men ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
JNIr. Tavenxer. Do you knovr Avhere those young men came from ?
Mr. LaFleur. I understood some came from New York and other
parts, and they appeared approximately at the same time.
jNIr. Tavex-^xer. t^Hien those young men came, how did it happen
that they became identified with the Communist Party if they came
in here as strangers ?
Mr. LaFleur. They weren't strangers to me. They were Com-
munists when they came here.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did they identify themselves immediately with
Communist Party activities upon arriving here?
Mr. LaFleur. Immediately. There was no need for subterfuge
inside the Communist meetings.
Mr. Tavexxer. One of the witnesses on the stand here a little while
ago was a man by the name of Samter
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta^-exxer. Who came here from New York in 1949. Can you
tell this committee from your own personal knowledge whether he
was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. LaFleur. He certainly was. I reported to the FBI very defi-
nitely that I even seen his party card, and there happened to be a
recruiting drive on at that time, too.
Mr. Tavex^xer. When he came here, how soon after his arrival was
it that he became identified with Communist Party activities ?
Mr. LaFleur. Practically the same week.
Mr. Taa'exxer. What relative position did he have in the Com-
munist Party? I mean was he active or inactive, passive, or how
would you describe his activities ?
Mr. LaFleur. He was soon put in charge of a group and at one
time even trying to lead or incluce the Sheet and Tin Mill group to
become active and function.
Mr. Tavexxer. Were these bright young men, who came from the
colleges in the East to take up more or less menial jobs in labor, active
in the labor organization ?
COMMUNIST INPILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY 2013
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were those activities in the labor organization dis-
cussed and passed on by the Communist Party in its meetings?
Mr. LaFleur. It certainly was. They were instructed upon the
meetings, and I might say at times browbeaten for a little more action.
A lot of things they failed to do.
Mr. Scherer. That they failed to do within the union, do you
mean ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. In carrying out Communist Party policy ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir ; Communist tasks of all sorts.
Mr. Scherer. "Wliat was this man's name you referred to, Samton ?
Mr. LaFleur. Samter.
Mr. Tavenner. Samter.
Mr. Scherer. Was he still a member of the party when you left it ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir ; he was.
Mr. Scherer. In 1952?
Mr. LaFleur. Approximately '52, that is, some part of '52.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, let us go for a moment to the Gary section
or the City Section of the Communist Party. Just for purposes of
general knowledge, how strong was that group in numbers ?
Mr. LaFleur. Being the branch chairman, I could be quite certain
as to how many members they had. These were not people that were
receiving Daily Workers and going out and saying they were Commu-
nists. They were actually dues-paying Communists. I had seen most
of their books, their party books. At one time I held a list with the
party book numbers. It numbered about 30 to 35 as near as I can
remember.
Mr. Tavenner. How is it that you as an employee in the tin and —
what is it ?
Mr. LaFleur. Sheet and tin.
Mr. Ta"\tenner. Sheet and tin plant were selected for the chairman-
ship of the branch in the City of Gary, which was a neighborhood
branch or community branch, as I understand.
Mr. LAFLEnrR. That is right, sir. As I indicated before, the Sheet
and Tin Mill unit was not functioning. They needed somebody to take
over the leadership in the community branch. I was available. The
best description — the excuse I can give for those who refused to func-
tion was they didn't want to stick their necks out, and I was chosen —
elected chairman or president of the Community Branch.
Mr. Tai-enner. Now, you held that position for about a year ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was around 1946 as I understand.
Mr. LaFleur. The latter part of '46 into the latter part of '47, as
near as I can remember.
Mr. Taatsnner. Yes. Now, did any change occur which required
you to go back to units in steel ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. Later on it did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that ?
Mr. LaFleur. The change of organizer, the sharpening of the issues
that they called the class struggle; and they made plans to push people
whether they wanted to or not, push the comrades available.
Mr. Tavenner. The program was being put into effect at that time
of concentrating in industry, was it not ?
2014 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. That is, in the main. That was the main
objective.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that you served in the ca-
pacity of a member of the section.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Just what is that, the section? Isn't that just the
]iext level higher above the cells or groups ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. TxVV^enner. The next level is tlie section level ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the members of the section ?
Mr. LaFleur. Of the Community Section or the County Section ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, of the steef?
Mr. LaFleur. Of steel?
Mr. Tavenner. I am not speaking of names, but how were the
members chosen or selected who were members on the section level?
Mr. LaFleur. Mainly they were steelworkers. They had to be
militant. They belonged to the section.
]\Ir. Tam^nner. Was there a representative from each one of the
units that became a member of the Steel Section ? Was it organized
in that form ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir- There were numerous reorganizations.
It is pretty hard to describe without referring to the basic structure.
Mr .Tavenner. What type of activity did those engage in who were
members on the section level ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, first and foremost, recruiting, jDeddling of
propaganda by their papers, literature, and so forth and, of course,
fighting for the issues on the union floor, such as during the war the
no-strike pledge, and after the war the work stoppages and then strikes,
and some political questions, like the drive for Henry Wallace, the
third-party movement, and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what position was taken with regard
to the Marshall Plan?
Mr. LaFleur, The Marshall Plan was discussed at length and
propagandized all out of proportion. Needless to say tliey did not
like the Marshall Plan-
Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party endeavor to influence
the local unions to take a position against the Marshall Plan ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. I do not know how successful they were.
Tliey talked about it at lengtli. I cannot indicate what their success
was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it part of the program of the Communist
Party, acting through the section members, to advance various pro-
grams of the Commuinst Party in the unions which had to do with
international affairs and which were not related to union affairs at
all?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. That was part of the propaganda plan ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. The outstanding issue during the war
was the no-strike pledge. We were allies of Russia at the time. Their
main loyalty was the Russians. To hear them propagandize at times,
you would think they lived in Russia, not in the United States. They
played that up big.
COIMMUNIST INPILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2015
Mr. TA^^:x^rER. "V\niat sort of an organization was there next above
the section level ?
Mr. LaFleur. The state level.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Was there anything intermediate between the sec-
tion and the state ?
Mr. LaFleur. I don't understand what you mean.
Mr. Tavenxer. Was there a County Committee '.
Mr. LaFleur. Oh, yes; there was a County Committee, yes sir,
County Board, County Committee. They called it by various names.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve on it %
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir, although at times when not serving I was
invited to attend meetings.
Mr. Taa^xxer. How frequently did you attend meetings of the
Steel Section
Mr. LaFleur. How frequently %
Mr. Tavenxer. Of tlie Communist Party.
Mr. LaFleur. How frequently ?
Mr. Tavexx^er. Yes, how frequently. And over what period of
time ?
Mr. LaFleur. Aside from lO-lG, when I served in the community
branch, practically the entire time — I take that back — for the latter
2 years — approximately 7 years I had access to all the committees.
Mr. Tavexxer. That would be up to about 1950.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta-s^xxer. That you had access to the meetings.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir
Mr. Tavexxer. How frequently were these meetings held ?
Mr. LaFleur. They would average once every 2 weeks, I would say.
Mr. Tavexxer. Would you say that those who were members on a
section level were leaders in the Communist Party ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. I would like for you to tell the committee who were
prominent, that is, the names of persons who were prominent on a
section level of the Communist Party during the period from 1946 or
'47 through to 1950, who met with you in those meetings. But before
answering that question, may we have a few minutes recess ?
The CiiAiRMAx. Yes. The committee will stand in recess for 5
minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The CiiAiRMxiX'. The committee will be in order, j)lease.
Mr. Tavex'xer. Mr. LaFleur, do you have in mind the question
that I asked you ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. Now, in answering that question, I would be glad to
know about the activities of the individuals that you mentioned. It
will serve as a means of further identification of the persons whom you
will name.
Mr, LaFleur. Yes, sir. Kretheotis, Jack Kretheotis.
Mr. Ta\'exxer. Jack Kretheotis. The person who would not give
his full name here before the committee a few minutes ago.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. He was known in party circles as Jack
Kreth.
Mr. Tavexxer. What?
Mr. LaFleur. Kreth. K-r-e-t-h.
2016 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner, Jack Kreth.
Mr, LaFleue. Kreth. He just shortened his name.
Mr. Tavenner. He served on the section level ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. He was very articulate at Communist
conventions, at least 2 held here in Gary.
Mr. ScHERER. More articulate than he was here ?
Mr. LaFleur. Sir ?
Mr. Scherer. I say he was more articulate in Communist conven-
tions than he was here.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. Very vocal in private Communist meetings,
and, from all indications, proof positive he carried out the work of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. He was in a position to have given this committee
information if he had desired to do so ?
Mr. LaFleur. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mr. Scherer. I want to ask one question. He was still an active
Communist at the time you left the party in 1952 ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir, undoubtedly. Robert Kates.
Mr. Tavenner. Robert Kates. Did he testify today ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir, he testified today. He was also very vocal.
He was also very vocal; and if you take their word, they succeeded
a lot in their objectives. They worked at the steel mill.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall anything about the circumstances of
his coming here to Gary ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, the time was approximately around 1947, I
would put it, and he came with, as I termed it, the functioning of the
branches, the units, various organizational setups that they had were
weak and they filled in.
Mr. Tavenner. These bright young men strengthened the weak
units of the Communist Party ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir ; with particular emphasis on steel.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know exactly what year it was when he
came here?
Mr. LaFleur. I just surmise it, sir. He probably came before that.
Mr. Tavenner. You don't know the date on which he came ?
Mr. LaFleur. No, I don't sir.
Mr. Scherer. Did you know at the time they came that they had
the educational background that has been developed here this morn-
ing?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. That was very apparent. It was apparent
through the vocability in discussing things and the understanding
they had as Communists.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they exercise leadership in the Communist
Party?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. These young men, these bright young men?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Taa^nner. Like Kates ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And in the union ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. They were told that their main task was
in the mill units.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2017
Mr. ScHERER, Were you aware of the fact that they did not, at the
time they came here, disclose in tlieir applications for employment to
the employer that they had the educational training that they had?
Were you aware of that at the time ?
Mr. LaFleur. No, I was not, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. You learned that subsequently ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, I guessed it at the time. I learned it for sure
subsequently.
Mr. ScHERER. You guessed that a man with the educational quali-
fications that these men apparently had would not be working on an
assembly line?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr, TA^^ENNER. Or, one of them indicated in his application this
morning, an electrician's helper.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. I am quite sure it was right around '47
or '48 that that party came to Gary.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Would you proceed, please.
Mr. LaFleur. Yellin.
Mr. Tavenner. Yellin ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yellin.
Mr. Tavenner. He has also testified here.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. He was very active in the party. I don't
recall any unusual characteristics of his work. He w'as very well
educated. It was apparent, and it bolstered the forces here that were
very weak.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party when
you left it?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Let me refresh my own recollection, Mr. Tavenner.
Wasn't Yellin the man who went to Michigan University?
ISIr. TA^^NNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. He changed from an arts course to an engineering
course at Michigan ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. He is the one that studied calculus.
Mr. Tavenner. And had an "Excellent— A" rating on many diffi-
cult engineering subjects.
Mr. Scherer. And he is the one who came to work as an electrician's
helper. I remember that.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. And he had transferred to Michigan
from the City College of New York.
Mr. LaFleur. William Young was another man that was a
Commie.
Mr. Ta\tenner. William Young?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. He was also — well, he had been an old-
line party member for a long time, for the good part of the war and
up to '50 ; and he was instrumental in reporting at closed Communist
meetings about things that went on in the union, the complete pro-
posals and plans of the union, and so on and so forth, the policy com-
mittee plans, wage committee plans, and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member when you left the party ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well sir,
Mr. LaFleur. Joe Norrick.
2018 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner, Would you spell the last name ?
Mr. LaFleur. N-o-r-r-i-c-k.
Mr. Tavenner. He was a member on the section level ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. All those I am mentioning are on a sec-
tional level. I will indicate otherwise when I come to, or I think of,
any member.
He was veiy vocal at closed party meetings and he carried on the
work of the Communist program very faithfully, and nothing out-
standing.
Joe Gyurko.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell the last name ?
Mr. LaFleur. G-y-u-r-k-o, I think. Comrade Joe, as I analyzed
him, was more or less the rank-and-file type, and he carried on the
usual job that the rank and file has, distribution of leaflets, and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. You would not classify him as one of the leaders
in this work ?
Mr. LaFleur. Xo, sir; not in the section level. John Sargent.
He was very ambitious, a very militant leader, as I remember him.
Mr. Scherer. Did he work in the steel pool ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Scherer. And active in the steel union ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What about his regularity in attendance at these
meetings on a section level that you attended ?
Mr. LaFleur. Quite good regularity, but I did not see him too
often because my work prevented me. It was just incidental that we
didn't run into each other too often. John Gates.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Sargent a member of the Communist Party
when you left it ?
Mr. LaFleur. To rax knowledge, he was. John Gates. He was
quite able. A Negro. He was induced by Howard Lawrence to
join the party, as far as I know, and he carried out quite a bit of
work.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was Howard Lawrence ?
Mr. LaFleur. Howard Lawrence was the section organizer during
the war years up to '47.
Mr. Tavenner. He was a Communist Party functionary?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Devoted his full time to organizational work ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well.
Mr. Scherer. Where is Lawrence today, if you know?
Mr. LaFleur. I last heard he was in California, sir. There was
Nick Migas.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell the last name ?
Mr. LaFleur. M-i-g-a-s.
Mr. Scherer. Going back to Lawrence, do you know what Lawrence
is doing today ?
Mr. LaFleur. He left Gary under a cloud. He disagi'eed with a lot
of the party people, and they didn't expel him, but he left here.
Mr. Scherer. You don't know what his occupation is as of this time ?
Mr. LaFleur. No, sir. Then of course the 5
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. About Nick Migas.
Mr. LaFleur. Oh.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC rNDUSTRY 2019
Mr. Tav^enner. A person by the name of Nick Migas was identified
by
Mr. LaFlettr. Laiitner.
Mr. Tai-enner. John Lautner this morning.
Mr. LaFleuTv. Yes, and he was correct. I was going to say he was
on a higher level, and he went all the way in the Communist infiltra-
tion. He had a lot of trouble with the steel union and he became
under a cloud. Of course, that helped the Communist Party get hold
of him for his full services.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Yes. We already heard from Mr. Lautner that
Nick Migas was sent in here by the Communist Party
Mr.LAFLEUR. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. For defuiite Conmiunist Party purposes.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes. I might mention in tliat connection Joe
Chandler.
Mr. Tavenner. Joe Chandler. How well did you know Joe
Chandler?
Mr. LaFleur. Pretty well, and he stayed here several years, and he,
too, was on a liigher level. I agree with Mr. Lautner because I seen it
first hand. He worked in the union quite at length and he was sent
to Washington at one time on a lobbying job and he had the party
forces under him on that lobbying job, as I understand, on the union
business.
Mr. TA\T:isrNER. Were you acquainted with the wife of Joe Chand-
ler?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was her position in the Communist Party, if
any?
Mr. LaFleur. She was a functionary of the Community Branch
when I was president. I don't recall the position she held, but she
held something like secretary or educational director or something
like that.
Mr. Tavexxer. Very well.
Mr. LaFleur. Nick'Busic.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Busic. He was a witness here.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes.
Mr. Tavexner. This afternoon.
Mr. LaFleur. He was a member in 1950 or maybe further, to my
knowledge, at the time. He was quite faithful at party meetings in
carrying on the work of the Communist Party. No unusual other
characteristics. Lawrence Meskimen. He didn't work in steel.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you spell that name, please.
Mr. LaFleur. M-e-s-k-i-m-e-n.
He was also very articulate at party meetings of every sort and he
worked in oil refineries. Accorcling to his own word, he was quite
successful on all phases of their work, recruiting and so on and so
forth. ^ .
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know where he is today ?
Mr. LaFleur. I understand he is still around. I never heard any-
thing dift'erent, sir. I wouldn't know.
Mr. SciiERER. Do you mean around Gary ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes ,sir. Of course, there were the .5 Malis brothers.
Ml'. ScHERER. Five what brothers?
Mr. LaFleur. Malis brothers, 5 Malis brotliers.
2020 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Taatsnner. Were all 5 at one time or another members of a
section group or on the section level ?
Mr. LaFleur. No. Cash and Keg— that is, Cash, Chris Malis, and
Keg, Albert Malis, were more or less on the section level that we are
talking about. The other 2 and Vic, including Vic, the other two, I
knew them as Sully and Sy, that would be Willard and Walter,
respectively
Mr. Taat^nner. Yes.
Mr. LaFleur. Were on a lower plane.
Mr. Scherer. The Malis brothers. What did they do ? What was
their business ?
Mr. LaFleur. They were steelworkers.
Mr. Scherer. All steelworkers?
Mr. LaFleur. All steelworkers.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with the wife of Vic Malis '^
Mr. LaFleur. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was her name ?
Mr. LaFleur. I think it is Anne, although I have no other
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall her last name ?
Mr. LaFleur. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner, Before marriage ?
Mr. LaFleur. No, sir ; not at tlie moment.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed ?
You have named the 5 Malises. Let me ask you this : Do you recall
whether one of the Malises was involved here in an incident in which
tJie American Flag was torn down and a Russian flag substituted for it?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, I recall it. It came second hand to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Then if it came second hand
Mr. LaFleur. I have no first-hand information, no, sir. But I was
aware of it at the time, though.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Will you proceed, please, with the names
of any others that you can recall who served on the section level witli
you
Mr. LaFleur. I mentioned Joe Chandler.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. LaFleur. Arthur Daronatsy.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that name, please?
Mr. LaFleur. D-a-r-o-ii-a-t-s-y, T lliink. He was, when I first
knew him, in approximaleh' '42, on the CIO County Council; and he
had an interest as a comrade in all things pertaining to the infiltra-
tion of steel, non-strikes, so on and so forth. He attended party
classes, for example, Marxism-Leninism, value of price and profit.
Communist Manifesto. It was proof positive that he was a function-
ing Communist. In fact, he helped with the training and instruc-
tion of lower functioning comrades.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Were there any other functionaries that at-
tended these particular meetings with some regularity?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes. Kafherine Hyndman was one.
Mr. Tavenner. Who?
Mr. LaFleur. Katherine Hyndman.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell the last name ?
Mr. LaFleur. H-y-n-d-m-a-n.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Chairman, our investigation shows that Kath-
erine Hyndman was arrested on a deportation warrant on January 5,
(DOMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2021
1949, and that there was a final order of deportation issued on Jan-
uary 29, 1953, to send her to Yugoslavia, but Yugoslavia refused to
accept her.
I mentioned that because in the bill now presented by you in the
House and which has been referred to this committee, there is a sec-
tion relating to the problem of countries that have refused to admit
these deportees.
This is one of those incidents.
The Chairman, Of course, it might be a simple way to meet the
situation by writing into the Foreign Aid Bill a provision that no
part of the appropriation should be made to any country that fails
to comply with the United States law. That would be a simple way
to meet the problem.
Mr. Tavenner. That would be particularly applicable as to Yugo-
slavia.
The Chairman. That is what I have in mind.
Mr. Ta\"enner. Now, let me ask you this question : Was she actively
engaged in Communist Party activities after her arrest in January
of 1949?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. If I may explain, I don't mean to give the
impression that she gave all of her talent to the steel units. She
aided in that substantially. But she was on a higher plane and she
was practically on a plane with, let us say, the section organizer, the
highest political plane.
Mr. Tavenner. That was even after she was under arrest ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. She was the organizational secretary, I
know, up until '49.
Mr. Ta\t:nxer. Yes. Do you have any personal knowledge of facts
that would indicate that she is now one of the active organizers or
active members of the party here in Gary ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes. When I left the party I had heard state or-
ganizers tell her that she was going to be the organizer when they
had to leave. Wlien the prosecution of the top 12 was taking place,
Jim West left for the national coordinator, I believe you call it, or
Midwest coordinator. I can so-j with positive note that she agreed
to take over as organizer, as section organizer. They may have given
it another name at the time, but it meant the same thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us see if you can recall the names of any other
persons who were on this section level group with you. Do you recall
a person by the name of Lehrer?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Lehrer. How do you spell the name ?
Mr. LaFleur. It is spelled L-e-h-r-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Lehrer.
Mr. LaFleur. I knew him as L-a-i-r, by that name.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. LaFleur. He was the usual pretty conditioned Communist on
a high level, section level.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he one of the older men in the party or was
he one of the young group that came in from the East?
Mr. LaFleur. I think he was one of the new ones that came in from
the East.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he still a member when you left the party ?
2022 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. LaFleur. No. I have to correct that. I am not sure whether
he came from the East, but I am positive that I knew him. I will
correct that statement.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether he was a member when you
left the party ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall a man by the name of Eebraca ?
Mr. LaFleur. He was known to me as Louie or Owl Kebraca. I
think his right name w^as Lazo, L-a-z-o, and he participated, I know,
because I made reports regularly on him up until 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any others that come to 3^our mind at
this time ?
Mr. LaFleur. Not at the moment, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I asked you about the functionaries that at-
tended the meetings with you. Were thereany higher functionaries
from out of the State who attended and imparted the Communist
Party line to your group ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you name some of them ?
Mr. LaFleur. At different times on the national issues, such as the
no-strike pledge during the war, Steve Nelson took a party whip and
came to town and harangued us at least on what to do and what we
should accomplish. And he remarked at one time, I remember viv-
idly, that we should terrorize, if necessary, terrorize by most psycho-
logical effect, and that was done quite at length in Communist circles.
William Patterson.
Mr. Tavenner. William Patterson?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Taatsnner. Was he the chairman of the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. LaFleur. He was at one time, I believe, sir. He told in pri-
vate Communist meetings that we should be militant. I am trying
to strike the exact meaning to bring across. He scolded us for back-
wardness in all tasks, union work and so on and so forth. He gave
reasons why we should be more militant and told the fact that the
Communist Party was the salvation of the United States. He told
why he became a Communist, the main reason being that the two exist-
ing political parties in the United States, the Democrats and the Re-
publicans, had failed to satisfy him, and he turned to communism for
the answer. That is, in essence, the message he brought.
Mr. Tavenner. Recalling very vividly his opposition to this com-
mittee in the course of its meeting in Detroit, back in 1952 or 1953, I
only wish we had had that information at that time.
Are there any others that you can now recall ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, there were the state leaders, George Sandy and
Elmer Johnson. There was — for the moment I can't think of tlie
other person — Gil Green ; Gilbert Green, to my mind, is the personifi-
cation of the underground leader in America today, if we can take
into consideration his record since the top 12 were prosecuted. He
chided and harangued the Communists here for lack of action on all
fronts.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner, Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Wasn't Gil Green one of the many who were recently
released by the Supreme Court rule ?
COMMUNIST mFILTRATIOX IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2023
Mr. Tavexner. I would not like to state positively.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the reason I asked you.
Mr. LaFleur. There were others like Onda, 0-n-d-a. They dealt
in union circles on labor. There was Lightfoot, people like that.
Mr. TA^^:N^rER. From Chicago ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\^xxer. Now, I would like to hear from 3'ou at this time the
circumstances leading up to the termination of your work in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. LaFleur. Well, during the deportation hearings, various peo-
ple here in Gary, namely, Katherine Hyndman, James MacKay,
I was suspected of carrying information to the FBI. By process of
elimination, they established that I could have been the undercover
man for the FBI. I could see a change coming over. They were
going into cells. They were practically underground at the time.
Their whole attitude changed. They split into small circles and into
cells, as low as 3 people, all suspecting one another.
Katherine Hyndman, in the course of her fight against deportation,
helped to organize the CEC.
Mr. Tavenner. Civil Eights Congress ?
Mr. LaFleur. Civil Eights Congress, and we formed a chapter
here. From her attitude and what she said at the time, I took it as
a punishment that I was taken out of the steel miit, which hadn't
functioned — and I might say here that I helped along in that direc-
tion, that it wouldn't function as long as I was in it- — and I was put
in the CEC. I was put back to literature director or secretary at the
time. That is what they called it.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Was she, herself, engaged actively in the work of
the Civil Eights Congress at that time ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. So she kept you under pretty strict surveillance
from then on, didn't she ?
Mr. LaFleur. I was the one being watched.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the membership of the Civil Eights Congress
composed of members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes. There were some. I can recall Pat Taxel,
Lemar Holstead, of course, myself, and j\Irs. Hyndman, were Com-
munists. I didn't deduce that from our work in the CEC. We met
at Communist meetings. There were others that I can't recall at
the moment.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Did the Communist Party direct and control the
activities of that organization ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir, we were ordered what to do.
Mr. Ta\'enner. While we are at this point, let me ask whether or
not members of the Communist Party were assigned to do work in
various front organizations or various organizations that were not
fronts in an effort to infiltrate them, in addition to the labor unions.
ISIr. LaFleur. Yes. One outstanding example that I can think of is
that we were told to go into tins organization to influence the mem-
bers ; and I want to say that they were unaware that this person was
coming in, or persons, comrades. Mary Chandler and Ethel Strangel
went into the League of Women Voters ; and from their own stories,
they influenced the organization to a certain extent. How far, how
deep they went, I don't know.
2024 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
]\Ir. Tavenner. At least they endeavored to do it.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexner. Was an effort made to infiltrate other organiza-
tions in the area ?
JNIr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Of course IWO was practically run by the Communists, the Russian
War Relief was run directly by Communists, the Peace Crusades they
had, and so on. That is about it, sir, that I can recall at the moment.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. After you were placed in the Civil Rights Congress
and taken out of j^our former work — let me ask you first about what
year was that that you were put in the Civil Rights Congress and
taken out of your former work ?
Mr. LaFleur. Approximately 1950, the latter part of 1950 to '51.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. What occurred after that ?
Mr. LaFleur. Well, as they would describe, the class struggle got
tighter and tighter and it didn't exist outside of their OAvn organi-
zation. The class struggle was in the Communist Party, and grad-
ually I had to bow as gracefully as I could. I was no longer of any
use to the Communist Party.
Mr. Taat^nxer. Then you terminated your membership ?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir. I never terminated. I just dropped out.
There is a saying that you never leave the Communist Party. You
are expelled. I never was expelled.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to go back to one of these persons that
you mentioned, Vic Malis.
Mr. LaFleur. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any special activity he engaged
in, in addition to the attendance at party meetings and the work in
the union ?
ISIr. LaFleur. Yes. I couldn't pin it down to the year, but he quit
14 years' seniority in the mill, 14 years' service to take over the Co-
operative Restaurant at 1428 Broadway, and that was on orders of
the Communist Party.
]Mr. Tavenner. Why was the Communist Party interested in hav-
ing this man surrender his seniority in order to run a restaurant?
Mr. LaFleur. They wanted to keep a tight rein on that cooperative
restaurant, and the main objective plainly was to keep that meeting
luill, keep the meeting hall and also to control the workers there.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean the Communist Partv held its meetings
there?
Mr. LaFleur. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party having difficulty in find-
ing a hall in which it could meet with proper secrecy ?
Mr. LaFleuk. I venture to say that they anticipated that, and the
events proved that the}^ had difficulty.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Have you any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
]Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
The Chaerman. Mr. LaFleur, I am sure you do not realize fully how
great has been your contribution to the preservation of those things
that mean so much, not only to us Americans but to the world.
People generally are not aware of the machinations of the Commu-
nists, nor were they aware in many of the countries which, through
infiltration, are now behind the Iron Curtain.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2025
I do not know how to begin to thank j^ou. Your contribution may
be as great as that of a division in the Army.
Mr. LaFleur. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. Who laiows, but you certainly have done a great
service toward the preservation of this Republic that all of us do or
should love.
Mr. LaFleur. Thank you.
The Chairman. And 1 thank you very much.
Mr. LaFleur. Thank you. My pleasure.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until ten tomor-
row morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p. m., February 10, 1958, the subcommittee
recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m., Tuesday, February 11, 1958.)
INVESTIGATION OF C03IMUNIST INFILTRATION AND
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(Gary, Ind., Area)
TUESDAY, FEBRUABY 11, 1958
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Gary, Ind.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met pursuant to recess, at 10 a.m. in the Council Chamber, Municipal
Building, Gary, Ind., Hon. Francis E. "Walter (chairman of the com-
mittee) presiding.
Committee members present : Francis E. "Walter, of Pennsjdvania
(presiding) , and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and Ray-
mond T. Collins, investigator.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will come to order.
The custodian of the building has requested me to announce that
smoking is not permitted. It is impossible to ventilate the room, and
the fire hazard, of course, is considerable. So that I request you to
refrain from smoking at this session.
Call your first witness.
Mr. TA^■EXNER. Mr. Robert Lehrer, will you come forward, please,
sir.
The Chairman. "Will you raise your right hand, please, sir?
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the wdiole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Mr. Lehrer. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT LEHRER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
WILLARD J. LASSERS
Mr. Ta\'^nner. "Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Lehrer. Robert Lehrer.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. "Will you spell your last name ?
Mr. Lehrer. L-e-h-r-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Lehrer. It is noted that you are accompanied by
counsel.
"Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Lassers. Yes, certainly. INIy name is William J. Lassers, 11
South LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois.
2.S178— 58 6 2027
2028 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr, Ta\-enner. Wlien and -where were you born, Mr. Lelirer ?
Mr. Lehrer. November 6, 1925, in New Jersey, Stelton, N. J.
Mr. Tavexner. Excuse me, I didn't understand where.
Mr. Lehrer. Stelton, New Jersey.
Mr. Tavenxer. Stelton, New Jersey ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Taat;nner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Lehrer. 1073 Pierce Street, in Gary.
Mr. Taatsnner. How long have 3'ou lived in Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question and I would like to
state my grounds.
I respectfully refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I
need not do so under the first amendment and the Federal Due Process
clause of the Constitution of the United States that the question under
inquiry has not been properly defined, that the question is not pertinent
to the question under inquiry, that the question is unrelated to any
legislative purpose, that the resolution establishing the Committee on
Un-American Activities is indefinite and vague, that the committee
and this subcommittee are improperly constituted and lack jurisdiction
of the subject matter.
I do not base my refusal to answer upon the privilege against self-
incrimination of the fifth amendment of the Constitution of the L^nited
States, but do reseiwe every other ground, constitutional and otherwise,
available to me.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat other constitutional grounds do you rely on ?
You stated constitutional grounds in general. Let me make it more
specific. Are you relying on the constitutional grounds set forth in
the fifth amendment relating to self-incrimination testimony?
Mr. Lehrer. I tliink that is clear in my statement.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you relying on the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Lehrer. May I read again what I said ?
Mr. Ta\t:nner. No. Just answer the question. Are you refusing
to answer on the ground of the self -incriminatory clause of the fifth
amendment ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lehrer. No. But I am relying on other parts of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it certainly is self-evident, the per-
tinency of the question as far as the period of residence of this witness
in Gary is concerned, when the subject under inquiry relates to Com-
munist Party activities in Gary. I believe it would need no explana-
tion of the pertinency of the statement other than to state that.
So, unless the chairman thinks otherwise, I suggest that he be
directed to answer.
The Chairman. Yes. I think that is correct. You are directed to
answer that question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
OOMMtJNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2029
Mr. Lehrer. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you an employee in the steel industry?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question, too, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Scherer. I ask for a direction.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question as to where
you are employed.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Mr. Lehrer, you have stated that you are a resident
of Gary. Let me ask you whether or not, during the period of time
that you have been a resident of Gary, there has been practiced in the
steel plants in Garj^ a colonization of young Commimists from the
eastern part of the country to this area.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
(The chairman and Mr. Tavenner conferred.)
Mr. TA^^EXNER. Were j^ou present in the hearing room yesterday
when the chairman made his opening statement ?
(The witness conferred w4th his counsel.)
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question, too, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness.
The Chairman. I direct that you answer the question whether or
not you heard my opening statement. Certainly nobody is going to
get in trouble for listening to that statement.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer on the grounds first stated.
Mr. Ta\t:xner. "Were you present in the hearing room during the
testimony of Mr. Lautner and Mr. LaFleur ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question, too, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Lehrer, I think I should advise you that the
committee has received sworn testimony here at this hearing that it
was the practice of the Communist Party, it was a Communist Party
plan, to induce bright young men in various parts of the United
States and in educational institutions, to break off from the comple-
tion of their education and go into basic industry for the purpose of
strengthening the grass roots of the Communist Party in basic indus-
try and to afford strong leadership to Communist Party groups which
for one reason or another had become weakened.
Now, the committee has heard evidence that you came to Gary, Ind.,
and that you became identified with the Communist Party, and it is
our purpose now to inquire from you as to the exact tecluiiques used
2030 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
b}^ the Communist Party in sponsoring and putting into effect this
plan that we call colonization.
Now, -will you tell the comniittoo, please, Avhether such a plan of
colonization came to your attention and became known to you while
you have been in Gary ?
Mr. Lehrek. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHEREK. Now, Mr. Chairman, direct the witness.
The Chairmax. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. I think I should say, Mr. Chairman, to the witness,
that when the chairman directs you to answer the question it means
that this committee does not accept the reasons you give for refusal
to answer the question and that if you persist in refusing to answer
the question you subject yourself to possible contempt proceedings.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your
formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds stated,
and I think my education is my own business.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it not a fact that you hold an AB degree from
Rutgers University in New Brunswick, N. J. ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question. I don't see where
it is pertinent. I refuse to answer on the grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer on the grounds I luive already
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a record in the
name of Robert Lehrer from Rutgers L^niversity and ask you whether
or not that is, as far as you can determine, a correct record of your 3
years' work at Rutgers University.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Lehrer Exhibit No. 1."
The Chairman. Let it be marked and made a part of the record.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
2031
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2032 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lehrer, did you make application for employ-
ment in steel on August 30, 1949 in Gary ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Tavenner, I hand you a photostatic copy of an application
for employment at Carnegie-Illinois Steel Corp. bearing date of
August 30, 1949, at the end of which there is signed in ink the name,
Robert Lehrer.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the signature and state whether
or not that is your signature ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I
have already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. That is your name, is it not, signed at the bottom
of the application?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question also on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Lehrer Exhibit No. 2."
The Chahiman. Mark it and let it be made a part of the record.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2033
Lehbee Exhtbit No. 2
CARNEGiE-lLLSHO 'ATSON
2034 COMMUNIST IIVriLTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2035
Mr. Ta\^nner. Now, if you will hand it to me.
Mr. Lasseks. We haven't finished examining it.
The Chair]man. Take the document, counsel.
(The document was returned to i\Ir. Tavenner.)
Mr. Lassers. We haven't finished examining it. Can we have a
copy?
Mr. Ta\^nner. You have examined that copy. Inasmuch as your
witness refused to identify his signature I don't see why he wants to
see it.
Mr. Lassers. We haven't finished examining the document, Counsel.
The Chairman. The witness declined to answer the question so the
application can be of no interest to you.
Mr. Lassers. We have not finished examining this document.
The Chairman. You already refused to answer questions. All
right. Go ahead.
Mr. Lassers. We have a right to examine the document whether
we refused to answer questions on it or not.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. May I have the other document ?
(Document handed to Mr. Tavenner.)
Mr. Tavenner. Exhibit No. 1 showing your record at Rutgers
University shows
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. Shows that you were in attendance
for your first year at Rutgers for the year 1946-47, the second year
1947-48, the third year 1948-49. During that same period of time
were you employed in any industry ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Leiirer. I would like to see that employment application again.
The Chairman. This isn't relating to that at all. Were you em-
ployed at any place at all while you were at college ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Leiirer. I feel that counsel and I have a right to examine the
original document and it was taken away from counsel.
The Chairman. This question has nothing at all to do with the
original document at all.
If 3^ou will identify your signature on that ap])lication there by
indicating that you have some legitimate interest in it you will cer-
tainly be permitted to identify it. In view of the fact you have not
identified your signature, I don't know what possible interest you
might have in that piece of paper.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lehrer. I believe that is for us to determine.
The Chairman. Yes. All right. Whether or not j^ou see it is for
me to determine, so there we ai'e.
2036 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Lehrer. Would you repeat the question, sir ?
Mr. Tav-enner. The question was whether or not you were employed
in industry at any time during the period between 1946 and 1949.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
I would like to see that employment application again. It was
taken from my counsel's hand.
Mr. Tavenxer. Yes, because you refused to testify as to anything
with regard to the application, either as to the identification of your
signature or as to having even made such an application.
But may I ask you, if I show you this application for the purpose
of refreshing your recollection as to employment in industry, would
you answer the question ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lehrer. I will determine that after I see the document.
The Chairman. Mr. Tavenner, would you suspend a moment ?
(Announcements off the record.)
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Very well.
I will be very glad to show you the document again but before doing
so let me ask you whether this application truthfully stated your edu-
cational background when you submitted it to Carnegie Steel ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lehrer. I insist on seeing the document.
(Document handed to witness.)
^Ir. Tavenner. Will you examine the document and tell us whether
or not you concealed any facts relating to your educational training?
You will find it on the back page — the reverse side.
Mr. SciiERER. You don't expect him to answer that, do you, Mr.
Tavenner ?
The Chairman. I thought you were interested in the statements
with respect to employment.
Mr. Taa^enner. Both statements.
The Chairman. It is quite obvious they are not interested in it
now. Have you an extra copy of that?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Collins. There Avas only one photostat.
Mr. Tamsnner. Will you answer the question ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. You don't have to go to all that trouble. We will
give it to you after we have completed using it.
]Mr. Lassers. May we retain this copy ?
Tlie Chairman. After we have finished with it we will give it to
you because we have the original.
INIr. Lassers. With the understanding we will allow
The Chairiman. We will save you the trouble of copying it.
Mr. Lassers. With that understanding.
Mr. Ta\tenner. I will have a copy made and sent to you.
Mr. Lassers. We will retain this copy.
The Ch-virman. We will give you this copy to expedite the hearing.
Go ahead.
Mr. Lehrer. Will you repeat your question, please, sir ?
COMMUNIST INFrLTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY 2037
Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not at the time that
application was prepared you concealed from your employer your
educational background by not putting anything in your application
regarding it.
Mr. Lehrek. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I want the record to show that the witness
has not looked at this application which he said he had to have before
he answered that question. You knew when you asked me for the
document you weren't going to answer that question, didn't you ?
The Chairman. And were not going to look at it.
Mr. Tavenner. I told you that the information was on the back
of the document. You have not turned it over to look at it, have you?
You are practicing the same kind of deceit with this committee now
that you practiced in your company when you filed that application,
isn't that so?
Mr. Lehrek. I don't see that it is any of the committee's business
what I do on an application.
The Chairman. Well, it is the business of the committee and of the
Congress of the United States to prevent people from practicing de-
ception in order to conceal the real purpose of their seeking employ-
ment in a particular place.
Go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party-
will you let me see the document a minute ?
Mr. Lassers. On the understanding that I will have it back.
Mr. Scherer. Oh, come on.
Tlie Chairman. Stop that.
Mr. Scherer. You know better.
(Document handed to Mr. Tavenner.)
Mr. Tavenner. On August 30, 1949, the date of this application
Mr. Lehrer. Would you restate your question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on
August 30, 1949, the date of this application ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you advised by any member of the Commu-
nist Party to come to Gary for the purpose of filing this application
for employment ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record
the report of school work as required to be filled out on this applica-
tion form.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Under the title of school work it is stated as kinds
of school work, "high school. New Brunswick High, from September
1939 to June 1943." "College" is left entirely in blank.
Wliy did you conceal in this application the fact that you had a
B. A. degree from Rutgers University ?
2038 COMIMUNIST INFILTRATTOX IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Lehrer. I feel that my education is my business and I refuse
to answer that question on the grounds that I have ah'eady stated.
The Chairmax. Don't you think it \v'as the business of the United
States Steel in appraising your suitability for employment to know
that you had been graduated from Rutgers University ?
Mr, Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the gi'ounds I have
already stated.
The Chairman. Or did you forget that you had gone to college 4
years when you filed that application ?
Mr. Lehrer. Is that a question, sir ?
The Chairmax. That is a question.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. Your application shows during the period of time
we have shown by exhibit No. 1 wiien you were attending Rutgers
University, that you were working for the Pennsylvania Railroad Co.
in New Brunswick from May 1948 to October 1948 and that you were
working for the Aaron Plumbing Supply Co. from November 1948
to June 1949. Is that correct ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavexx'er. Were you so employed at those two places ?
Mr. Lehrer. I have already answered that I refuse to answer that
question on the grounds that I have already stated.
Mr. Scherer. Of course he wasn't. It was another fraud per-
I)etrated.
(Document handed to Mr. Lassers.)
Mv. Tavexxer. What was the nature of your employment at the
United States Steel Corp. ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
I have already stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. Didn't you become a third helper in the melting
and pit operations division ?
Mr. Lehrer, I refuse to answer that question on tlie grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. On your arrival in Gary did you immediately iden-
tify yourself with the Commmiist Party by affiliating with it here?
5lr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
I have already stated.
Mr. Ta-\^xxer. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. LaFleur yester-
day in which he testified that you were a member of the section group,
the Steel Section Group of the Communist Party
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavexxer. Up as late as the time that he left tlie Communist
Party ?
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
I have already stated.
Mr. Taa'exxer. Well, were you a member of the section group of
the Communist Party, the Steel Section Group ?
Mv. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
1 have already stated.
Mr. Tavexxer. Will you tell the connnittee whether or not at this
time Communist colonization of the steel industry is being practiced
in Gary ?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATIOX IX BASIC INDUSTRY 2039
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on tlie grounds I have
previously stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. May I have a direction ?
The Chair]man. Yes. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Lehrer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
I have previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I liave no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairmen. Have you any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, this witness is so obviously in con-
tempt of the Congress by his refusal to answer the questions and not
even invoking the fifth amendment, that I move this subcommittee
recommend to the full committee that this witness be cited for con-
tempt of Congress.
The Chairman. I think we ought to wait until our colleague of the
subcommittee, Mr. Tuck, has an opportunity to hear from us. I do
not think there is any question about the action that will be taken,
but I think we ought to let him know what is in the record. We will
defer action on the motion until Governor Tuck sees the record.
The witness is excused.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Ta\^xxer. Mr. Albert ]\lalis, please.
The Chairman. Kaise your right hand, please.
Do 5^ou swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Malis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALBERT "KEG" MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JUSTIN WAITKUS
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Malis. Albert "Keg" Malis.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Would you spell your last name ?
Mr. Malis. M-a-1-i-s.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Waitkus. My name is Justin Waitkus, 589 Broadway, Gary,
Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Malis?
Mr. Malis. January 24, 1914.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere ?
Mr. Malis. In Gary.
Mr. Tavenner. You are a native of Gary ?
]Mr. Malis. Yes, sir,
Mr. Ta^tenner. How are you employed, Mr. Malis? What is the
nature of your employment?
Mr. Malis. I am a steel worker.
Mr. Ta\-enner. A steel worker ?
Mr. Malis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you hold any official position in your union?
Mr. Malis. Yes, I do.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. "^Vliat is that position ?
Mr. Malis. Well, I am a trustee.
Mr. Tavenner. A trustee ?
Mr. Malis. Yes.
2040 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr, Tav^enner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your for-
mal education and training has been ?
Mr. Malis. Well, I have gone through grade school and high
school.
Mr. Tavenner. When did your employment in the steel industry
begin ?
Mr. I^Ialis. It was 1936.
Mr. Ta%tenner. And you have been constantly employed there since
that time ?
Mr. ]\L\Lis. Well, most of the time, yes. I was laid off at one tbiie
in the slack time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Malis. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. So, since 1936 you have been constantly employed
there except for temporary shutdowns or temporary layoffs ?
Mr. Malis. Three sessions, yes, sir.
Mr. Ta^^nner. How long have you been an official of your union ?
Mr. Malis. Well, I have held several elected posts.
Mr. Taat:nner. Tell us first when you became trustee.
Mr. IMalis. I believe I became trustee in — well, we have our elec-
tions in June, and I think we are inaugurated in July, officially put
into office, and I believe it was 1952.
Mr. Tavenner. And you have been trustee since that time ?
Mr. IVIalis. Since that time ; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that what position did you hold in the
union?
Mr. ISIalis. I was a grievance committee man.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period of time ?
Mr. JNIalis. Bear with me. This has been a while.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; I understand.
Mr. Malis. I am trying to think.
Mr. Tavenner. Approximate.
Mr. ISIalis. To the best of my knowledge, I believe it was in the
same thing. We always have our elections in June and inaugurated
in July. I believe it was 1946, that I was
Mr. Ta^^nner. Yes.
Mr. M\lis. To the best of my memory.
Mr. Ta\t}nner. Well, Mr. Malis, the committee has received testi-
mony here from Mr. LaFleur that you were a member of the Com-
munist Party during the period that he was active in Communist
Party work here, at least from 1945 or 1946 up until 1950 or maybe
1951. Was he correct in that identification of you ?
Mr. Malis. Wlio ? On whose testimony did you say ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. LaFleur.
Mr. Malis. Mr. LaFleur ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Malis. And specifically what did he say? I was present, but
I was in the back and I couldn't hear too well.
Mr. Tavenner. He said that you were a member of the Communist
Party up until the period that he himself dropped out from active
participation in Communist Party work, which apparently was in
1950 or 1951.
Mr. Malis. Well, that statement is not correct.
OOMlVrDNIST INFrLTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2041
Mr. Tavenner. Well, were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Malts. Yes ; I was at one time.
Mr. Tavenner. Up until what time ?
Mr. Malis. To the best of my knowledge, and I have been trying
to think back and trying to find out, I always thought that I had
gotten out either in late 1944 or early in 1945. But in thinking back
and everything else, it must have been a little later, because I know
the war was over, and so it must have been sometime late in 1945,
I believe, or even possibly very early in 1946. I don't remember, but
sometime in that area.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you attend any closed sessions of the Com-
munist Party after 1945 ?
Mr. JSIalis. To the best of my knowledge, I don't remember attend-
ing any.
Mr. Tavenner. You say to the best of your knowledge you do not
i-emember. Now, wouldn't you know whether or not you attended
any closed meetings of the Communist Party ? Wouldn't a thing of
that sort be something that you could answer definitely ?
Mr. Malis. Well, as far as I know, there never actually Avas any
closed meetings of the party. I mean in the sense that you had to
show any identification or anything, that you actually were a member
of the party to be in at any time that I was in the party.
The Chairman. Where were the meetings held ?
Mr. Malis. Sir?
The Chairman. Where were the meetings held ?
Mr. Malis. Well, they were lield in various places.
The Chairman. Name some of them.
Mr. jMalis. Well, it has been a long time ago, but they had some
headquarters in various places in Gary.
The Chairman. Where were the headquarters ?
INIr. Malis. Well, it seemed like at some times they were on 18th
somewhere — I forgot whetlier it was Adams or Jefferson — somewhere
in that neigliborhood there was a headquarters.
The Chairman. Was it a hall or an office ?
Mr. Malis. I believe it was a store front of some kind, an abandoned
store front, a store, a building.
The Chairman. IIow many people attended the meetings ?
Mr. Malis. Well, it has been so long ago that I mean
The Chairman. To the best of yoiii- recollection how m;inv people
nttended the meetings ?
Mr. Malis. Well, of course now. like I say, I Mas in it for quite a
while, these conditions varied in difl'ei-ent circumstances.
The Chairman. What was the maximum number of people to ever
attend a meeting that you attended, approximately ?
]Mr. Malis. Well, I Avouldn't know as people who I assumed to be
Communist Party members — I don't know. Maybe sometimes it might
have been 15 or 20 and then it varied all over the map.
The Chairman. Who were they?
Mr. Malis. Sir?
The Chair^ian. Who were they?
Mr. Malis. Wlio are they ?
The Chairman. Yes. Who were the 20 people that you say
attended ?
Mr. Malis. I don't remember.
2042 COMIMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
The CiiAiioiAX. Do you want us to believe that you attended meet-
mgs regularly as a Communist and you don't remember any of the
people who attended the meetings with you? But still you are able
to tell us approximatel}^ how many people attended the meetings.
Mr. ]\Ialis. I said it was a guess on my part. It has been so long ago
tliat I couldn't possibly remember.
The Chairman. Yes, but you belonged for a long period of time.
Mr. Malis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. During that long period of time who were the most
active members of the party with you ?
Mr. ]\Ialis. Well, actually I have no evidence to testify that anyone
was a member of the party, but in my opinion I think there was some
people that probably were.
The Chairman. "Wliy don't you tell us who they were ? IMaybe we
can talk to them and maybe they can help the Congress of the United
States in its struggle in this field.
Mr. Malis. Well, I think that if the committee wants to know about
any people the best I can do is try to recall whoever is concerned.
The Chairman. We are all concerned. Why don't j'ou tell us who
these people were ?
Mr. Malis. I will tell you, it has been so long ago that I
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You said you would try to the best that you can to
recall.
Mr. Chairman, it might be well for us to confer with this witness
before further testimony as to names by him. We would not want
him to make a mistake, of course.
The Chairman. That is what I have in mind. We would not want
him to name names here because he says it is difficult to remember, and
he might make a mistake and name people who were not members of
the party, so I suggest that the witness step aside. The subpena will
remain in effect and then Mr. Collins or one of our investigators will
be in touch with you some day and we will see if you can be of assist-
ance.
Mr. Tavenner. It will give us an opportunity to check on the in-
formation.
The Chairman. That is right. All right. You are still under
subpena, Mr. Malis.
Mr. Malis. I am still under subpena ?
The Chairman. We will let you know when to appear.
Mr. Malis. For these hearings ?
The Chairman. Yes. Not this week. Xot today.
Mr. Waitkus. Not for this hearing ?
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Waitkus. Thank you.
The Chairman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Sargent, will you come forward, please?
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do 3'Ou swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God
INfr. Sargent. T do.
COIVIMXJNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2043
TESTIMONY OE JOHN SARGENT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
WILLARD J. LASSERS
Mr. Ta^t^nner. It is noted for the record that the witness is accom-
panied by ]\Ir. Lassers, the same counsel who accompanied Mr. Lehrer.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Sargent. Sir, I have a statement that was notarized that I
would like to become part of the printed record. Is that possible?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your name, sir ?
Mr. Sargent. JNIy name is John Sargent.
Mr. Ta\tenner. John Sargent?
Mr. Sargent. That is right.
Mr. Lassers. The witness has made a request for the Chairman
about some statement.
The Chairman. We will take it under advisement. I just looked
over it hastily and I don't know the relevancy, but it may be that it is.
Mr, Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Sargent?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Sargent. Sir, would you repeat your answer regarding that
statement ?
The Chairman. I am sure you heard me.
Mr. Sargent. I am sorry.
The Chairman. I said we would take this under advisement.
Mr. Sargent. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I am sui'e that everj^thing that you have stated
there will be gone into at this hearing. You have an opportunity to
answer the questions for the record rather than to submit your answers
in this fashion.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Sargent. I was born in Chicago, 111., July 4, 1912.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere do you now reside ?
Mr. Sargent. I now live in Gary at 283 North Hamilton Street.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Gary ?
Mr. Sargent. I would say since about 1934.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you employed ?
Mr. Sargent. I work for the Inland Steel Co., and I am an elec-
trician in the coal strip department.
Mr. Tavenner. I notice from a copy of the statement which you
submitted, which was passed out to the persons present in the hearing
room here by your counsel prior to the meeting being called to order,
that you say that about 1931 you joined the radical movement. Wliat
radical movement ?
Mr. Sargent. The Young Communist League.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Sargent. I think later, yes. Later I was also a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you think. Well, you know, don't you ?
Mr. Sargent. I said yes, I was a member of the Communist Party
in later years.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say you think. You thought
you were a member. Did you know Mr. LaFleur ?
23178—58 7
2044 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Sargent. To the best of my recollection I have never seen the
man, I don't know liim at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, he identified you as a meniber of the Com-
munist Party. He was correct in that, was he not ?
Mr. Sargent. I was working yesterday. I did not hear the testi-
mony and I would very much like if you could read that testimony
to me.
The Chairman. There is no question about it. He admits he was
a member of the Communist Party so there is no need to show him what
Mr. LaFleur said.
Mr. Sargent. Sir? I did not admit I am a member of the Com-
munist Party.
The Chairman. Were, I said.
Mr. Sargent. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. LaFleur testified that after 1945 and on up
until about the time he left you were a member of the Communist
Party, which would have been somewhere around 1950 or 1951, is that
correct ?
Mr. Sargent. W^ell, I would like to again ask you to read for me,
since I was not present, the testimony of Mr. LaFleur. I would like
to get it in the full context of what he spoke about.
The Chairman. Let's make it very simple. Were you a member
of the Communist Party in 1951 ?
Mr. Sargent. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you in 1950 ?
Mr. Sargent. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
1945?
Mr. Sargent. No, sir.
The Chairman. While you were a member of the Communist Party,
were you aw^are of the influx of bright young men who concealed the
fact that they were college graduates into laboring jobs in the steel
business?
Mr. Sargent. Mr. Chairman, I don't think either I or my associates
were very bright young men in those days. I was completely unaware
of any bright young men w^ho were trying to get jobs in the steel
industry who were Communists.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Were you acquainted with Mr. Lehrer?
Mr. Sargent. I met Mr. Lehrer one day last summer when he took
my kids home from the beach. That was the first time I ever saw him.
Mr. Tavtsnner. When did you leave the Communist Party?
JSIr. Sargent. To the best of my recollection in 1940.
Mr. TAM3NNER. In 1940 ?
Mr. Sargent. Right.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Why did you leave ?
Mr. Sargent. I left the Communist Party because I became dis-
couraged w4th their methods of work. I no longer believed in what
they were trying to do. I felt that the Communist Party had become
an instrument of the foreign policy of the Soviet Union, and I Avas
not willing to go along with that situation.
Mr. Taatsnner. Did you express those views at the Communist
Party meetings?
COMMUNIST rNTFILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRr 2045
Mr. Sargent. I attended very, very few meetings of the Commnnist
Party, as I remember. I expressed those views to whoever would
listen to them, because they were my views.
Mr. TA\'E>rxER. Can 5^ou advise the committee of any of the activi-
ties of the Communist Party within the steel industry during the
course of the past 5 years ?
Mr. Sargent. No, sir. I was not a member of the Communist
Party in tlie past 5 years and know very little if anything about their
activities.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you continue to associate with those who had
been members of tlie Communist Party with you ?
Mr. Sargent. Well, I have no knowledge that anybody was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party. I associated with people who were in
my local union as local union members.
Mr. Tavenner. As what ?
Mr. Sargent. Local union members and members of the same local
union.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, the names of
any of the members in your local union who were memberc of the
Communist Party with you? That is, persons who are now there.
Mr. Sargent. I can't — yes, as far as I know, and I am trying to
remember back, I don't know of anybody who was a member of the
Communist Party with me. At least I don't remember. I don't
know that they remained members of the Communist Party. That
is for sure.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand that. If you have not been connected
you would not know whether they are presently active in the Com-
munist Party or not, but my question is whetlier there are persons
there now who were members of the Communist Party with you while
you were a member.
Mr. Sargent. Well, I am sorry, sir. I don't know that I can ac-
tually truthfully answer that question. I think you ought to under-
stand this : I was active in the Young Communist League. My asso-
ciation with the Communist Party was very small. The Young Com-
munist League in those days was a rather broad organization of young
fellows and girls who got together in socials, sports, got together in
bull sessions as young people do, I gue=^s, today.
There was no discipline of any kind that required a person to join
the organization. Anybody who came around and wanted to sit
around and participate did. For that reason there are numerous
people, I presume, who were in and out of the thing, and I would
scarcely be able to point my finger at any of those. I mean that is
I don't know whether they were members and I don't think that is
particularly important. The important thing at the time was to get
these young people together and get them to associate together and
discuss things together and participate in various sports and social
activities.
Mr. Tavenner. That was in the Young Communist League group
that you are speaking of ?
Mr. Sargent. Yes, that was in 1940, 1939 and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. T^Hien did you leave the Young Communist League
and become a member of the Communist Party ?
2046 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Sakgext. I don't believe I ever left the Young Communist
League and became a member of tlie Communist Party. I think I
was both, concurrent, at the same time.
Mr. Tavenner. I see. During the whole period of your member-
ship ?
Mr. Sargent. Oh, no. I think during the latter part of the period
I was responsible and in charge of the Young Communist League
and because of that I had to consult with Communist Party members,
and that was my association with the Communist Party, largely on
the basis of what was happening in the Young Communists.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the Comnumist organizer in 1940, at about
the period that you say you dropped out ?
Mr. Sargent. You know, I can't remember. I have actually tried
to think. There have been so many people in and out of this thing,
and I don't know. And I would certainly dislike to name some-
body
Mr. Scherer. Did I understand you. Witness, to say that you were
in charge of the Young Communist League ?
Mr. Sargent. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. Scherer. What was your title? Were you director of the
Young Communist League in this area ?
Mr. Sargent. No, I think I was called an organizer of the Young
Communist League.
Mr. Scherer. And as such, as an organizer for the Young Com-
munist League, you had contact with Communist Party functionaries
in the area, did you not '?
Mr. Sargent. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. How long did you retain the position as organizer of
the Young Communist League ?
Mr. Sargent. Well, I can't even answer that accurately. I disas-
sociated myself entirely from the whole outfit in 1940.
Mr. Scherer. I understand that.
Mr. Sargent. And I would say some years prior to that I became
very inactive, both in the Young Communist League and in the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Scherer. Did you receive compensation as an organizer?
Mr. Sargent. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\tenner. I got the impression from your statement that you
left the Communist Party because you were convinced that the Com-
munist Party Avas being used as the tool or instrument of a foreign
power. That is about the impression that I got from your statement.
Mr. Sargent. Well, used, as I put it, as a spokesman of a foreign
policy of the Soviet Union in this country.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party endeavoring to spread
that type of propaganda among the various organized groups of
labor?
Mr. Sargent. I don't know. I presume that they were trying to
do that. This was their policy. I mean I can't — unless you ask me
a specific question it would be hard to answer it.
Mr. Tavenner. I am trying to find out at even as early a date as
1940 the extent to which the Communist Party was using its propa-
ganda within the labor unions. .
Mr. Sargent. Well, I think at that time, around that time we had
the Hitler-Eussian Pact, which might have been perfectly justifiable
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2047
SO far as the Soviet Union was concerned for their own particuhir
benefit, but I certainly didn't think we ought to get excited about the
pact that Stalin made with Hitler. Around that time you had the
mvasion of Finland, I believe, by Russia, and I wasn't particularly
anxious to beat the drums for the Soviet Union on that cause. There
were any number of circumstances that led me to believe that we were
no longer an organization representing the working people in the town
and particularly interested in that problem, that we were becoming
more and more the excuse for Russian policy, and I didn't believe that
was part of what we were interested in. At least it was not part of
what I was interested in.
Mr. Tavenner. And the Communist Party was trying to use the
labor organizations to sponsor its particular line at the time ?
Mr. Sakgent. I don't know about labor organizations, but cer-
tainly as Communists they were sponsoring that particular position,
and I wanted no part of it.
Mr. Ta\"enner. Well, wasn't the Communist Party trying to sell
that to labor ? Wasn't that what they were doing in labor ?
Mr. Sargent. Well, the Communist Party had newspapers, had
various ways of selling their position. I don't think they made any
secret of their position. That was their position. They were open
for it.
Mr. Tavenner. You have no information as to Cormnunist Party
activities within the field of labor at this time ?
Mr. Sargent. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well, it is very refreshing to me and I am sure
your case is typical, to know that the workers of this country have
come to appreciate, just as they did in Hungary, what this Communist
thing is. I am very glad that we had the opportunity of hearing you
this morning.
]\Ir. Sargent. May I make one comment, Mr. Walter?
The Chairman. Yes, surely.
]\fr. Sargent. I want you, if you can, to appreciate the conditions
which made me join the Young Communist League. I think that is
important to your investigation.
The Chairman. I think I understand as well as anybody. Maybe
that is why I went to Congress.
Mr. Sargent. I want to point out that there was a great depression
in the country.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sargent. We didn't know where we were going. I couldn't
find employmeiit, together with a lot of other people, and we were all
seeking a solution, and I thought this was the solution. We were in-
terested in unemployment compensation, something that we have
received now and didn't receive then, better relief, better job oppor-
tunities. I daresay there are tliousands upon thousands of people
that joined under those circumstances.
The Chairman. But it was the Stalin-Hitler Pact that made you
realize that communism was hitting on all these fine, broad general
welfares that the liberal people in this country advocated, as a means
of foisting on the worker its beliefs, isn't that correct?
Mr. Sargent. Essentially, that is true.
2048 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
The Chaikman. "VVlien the Stalin-Hitler Pact was entered into you
saw tliroii<2;h it for what it was ?
Mr. Sargent. That is correct, and I began to feel that the party's
primary interest was not that of the people in this country but pri-
marily interested in protecting the Soviet Union.
Now, I liave no particular objection to a group of people who would
say, "My job and my feeling is that Germany or England or France
or any other country should be protected for any reason," but that
there should be their cause and there probably would be a lot of people
join a cause like that. That was not in my opinion the reason I
wanted to belong to the association.
The Chairman. The only thing I cannot understand is wliy any-
body would remain a Communist after Korea. Up to Korea I can see
justification and reason but that should have made it perfectly obvious
to everybody just exactly what this is — a power figlit for world
domination.
Is there any further question ?
Thank you. You are excused.
I think we will take a break for about 5 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
May I remind you that the no-smoking rule is still applicable.
Call your next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lazo Rebraca, will you come forward, please ?
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Rebraca. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LAZO REBRACA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
SAMUEL S. DUBIN
Mr. TA^^NN^;R. '\\niat is your name, please, sir.
IVIr. Rebraca. Lazo Rebraca.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record ?
Mr. DuBiN. Sam Dubin, 504 Broadway, Gary.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, Mr. Rebraca ?
Mr. Rebraca. R-e-b-r-a-c-a.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Rebraca ?
INIr. Rebraca. I was born in Yugoslavia.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. When?
Mr. Rebraca. In 1903, March 8.
INIr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr. Rebraca. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\'enner. When and wliere were you naturalized ?
Mr. Rebraca. In Hammond, Ind., 1947.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Where do you now reside?
Mr. Rebraca. 3825 Virgin ui, Gary, Ind.
Mr. TAMiNNER. How long have you been a resident of Gary?
Mr. Rebraca. About 37 years.
Mr. Ta\'enner. What is the nature of your employment?
Mr. Rebraca. I am a paint inspector.
Mr. Tavenner. In steel ?
COMMUNIST mFILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY 2049
Mr. Rebraca. Gary works.
]Mr. Tavenner. Which branch ? Where is it located ?
Mr. Rebr<\ca. Electrical department.
Mr. Ta\t;nxer. How long have you been employed in steel ?
Mr. Ivebr.\ca. Approximately 22 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Rebraca, will you advise the committee, please,
whether or not there is an organized group of the Commmiist Party
within your union ?
Mr. Rebraca. Sir, I can't say that there is. I mean I wouldn't
understand what is an organized group to begin with. I am not an
expert in the field, and all I know is in my union the people I do know
as union people. That is about all I could say.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Have you been aware of the existence of the Com-
munist Party cell or group in Gary ?
Mr. Rebr^vca. I have not been aware, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You have never known of the existence of such a
group ?
Mr. Rebraca. I have not known of such a group.
Mr. Tavenner. Then by that we may infer that you have never
been a member of the Commimist Party, is that correct ?
Mr. Rebraca. I have never been a member of the Communist Party,
sir.
Mr. Taa-enner. Have you attended Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. Rebraca. If I have I didn't Imow them to be as Communists.
Mr, Tavenner. You were identified as having been a member of
the Communist Party by a witness by the name of Mr. LaFleur.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rebraca. Mr. LaFleur in his testimony did not say that I was
a Communist. He did, however, imply that I was participating up
until 1950. I want to state rio^ht here and now that I liave not been
a Communist, I have not participated, and if Mr. LaFleur has any-
thing else to add to that I would like to hear it.
Mr. Ta\'enner. You have never paid Communist Party dues ?
Mr. Rebraca. I have not paid any Communist Party clues.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Have you made contributions to the Communist
Party?
Mr. Rebraca. Not to my knowledge, I haven't, although I am quite
generous. Sometimes I donate to a lot of things, but I don't know if
they go to a Communist cause or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there any information that you can give the com-
mittee at this time of the operations of the Communist Party in
Gary?
]\Ir. Rebraca. I am sorry, sir, but I can't give you any information
because I don't know of any such existence.
JNIr. Ta\tenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Scherer, have you any questions?
]Mr. Scherer. You know Mr. LaFleur ?
Mr. Rebraca. I met Mr. LaFleur one time.
Mr. Scherer. Just once?
Mr. Rebraca. Once.
Mr. Scherer. Where did you meet him ?
Mr. Rebraca. We went to Wallace for President conference.
Mr. Scherer. Where was that?
Mr. Rebraca. In Indianapolis. He drove me in his car down there.
2050 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. ScHERER. Is that the only contact yon had with him? How
did you happen to go with him in his antomobile?
Mr. Rebraca. The phone was given to me for me to call him np and
he would be more than happy to drive me down to so-called Progressive
Party conference in Indianapolis.
Mr. ScHERER. Was there any other person with you in the auto-
mobile ?
Mr. Rebraca. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Just you and Mr. LaFleur?
Mr. Rebraca. Just I and Mr. LaFleur.
Mr. Scherer. You never attended any other meetings with Mr.
LaFleur?
Mr. Rebraca. No, sir.
Mr. Scherer. At any time?
Mr. Rebraca. Never.
Mr. Scherer. That was the only time you saw him until he ap-
peared in the room here yesterday ?
Mr. Rebraca. That is tlie only time. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Did he discuss with you on that trip to Indianapolis
any activities of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Rebraca. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. Not to your knowledge ?
Mr. Rebraca. No, sir.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions at this time.
The Chairman. You are excused.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joseph Norrick.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Norrick. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH W. NORRICK, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Norrick. Joseph W. Norrick.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ?
Mr. Norrick. N-o-r-r-i-c-k.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record?
Mr. JMeyers. My name is Irving Meyers, Chicago, 111. I might
add at this moment that I sent a telegram last Saturday in behalf of
this client requesting an executive session. I received no reply. I
would like to have my telegram entered of record, if you will.
The Chairman. Yes. I am sure that you realize that it wasn't
the case of being impolite or discourteous. But the telegram was
delivered on INIonday morning in Washington, I understand, and
I was in Gary, Ind. ; so I did not receive your telegram.
Mr. Meyers. I would like to repeat my request, Your Honor.
The Chairman. That is all right.
Mr. Meyers. May I have an answer to that request?
The Chairman. We will decide whether or not it is relevant or
means anytliing.
C50MMUNI9T rNFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2051
]\Ir. Meters. Meanwhile, we may be going into a lieaiing.
The Chairman. We are going into a hearing right now.
Mv. Meyers. Are you denying my request?
Tlie Chairman. No. We are going to take under advisement your
request and tlien the committee will pass on the question of whether
or not it is relevant. Insofar as it will act as a means of stopping
the testimony or the hearing it will not be used for that purpose or
accepted for that purpose.
Mr. Meyers. Unless the ruling is made now the telegram has no
useful purpose, it would appear.
The Chairman. Go ahead. Ask the question, Mr. Tavenner.
]\rr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Norrick?
Mr. Norrick. Mr. Tavenner, would you clarify a few things for me
before I answer any questions ?
Mr. Tavenner. If there is any question you do not understand
about the purpose of the hearing I would be very glad to try to explain
it, or the chairman would.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. But I would say that before attempting to clarify
any such thing there is basic information that I desire to have, such
as the date and place of your birth.
]\Ir. Norrick. Pike County, Ind.
]\[r. Tavenner. When ?
:Mr. Norrick. July 18, 1899.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Gary ?
]\Ir. Norrick. No.
]Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Norrick. East Chicago.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Norrick. Youngstown Sheet and Tube.
Mr. Tavenner. Plow long have you been employed at Youngstown
Sheet and Tube?
Mr, Norrick. Since March of 1946.
Mv. Tavenner. Have you been employed there constantly since that
time?
Mr. Norrick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Norrick, the committee has information indi-
cating that you are in a position to be of assistance to it regarding
the activities of the Communist Party at Youngstown, in the place of
your employment. So will you tell the committee, please, what type
of Communist activities are being engaged in there at this time?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick. I would like to ask again if this committee will clarify
a fcAv things. In the first place, I am losing time, yesterday and today
to be here, and I understand that the committee — the Congress pays
us a very small sum for attending this hearing.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Whether or not you answer questions you
are paid your attendance fee.
]\Ir. Norrick. How much ?
Mr. Ta\t.nner. You will have to ask
Mr. Norrick. I tried to find out.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean your testimony is going to be based upon
the amount of payment that you receive as a witness ?
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
2052 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. NoRRicK. This matter of pay-
Mr. TA^^ENNER. We do not gage the payment of fees according to
what a witness says on the witness stand. He is entitled by kiw to
certain fees and those are paid whether he testifies or whether he
does not.
Mr. NoRRiCK. I am not interested in that.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Let's proceed to answer the question, then.
Mr. NoRRiCK. But I came here by subpena.
The Chairjian. That is right.
Mr. NoRRicK. I had to come.
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. NoRRicK. And I had to lose the time and it is important to me.
I don't want to lose any time.
Mr. Tav-enner. "Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Norrick. Repeat it, please.
Mr. Tavenner. AYill you read him the question ?
(Record read by the reporter.)
Mr. NoRRicK. I want to confer with my counsel.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. NoRRiCK. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer that question at
this time because I am not a lawyer and you fellows are old hands at
this game.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask any legal question.
Mr. NoRRiCK. If you please
Mr. TA^^NNER. I didn't ask you for a legal opinion ; I asked you for
a pure factual statement.
Mr. NoRRicK. Lots of things have happened out of this committee if
what I read in the papers is true. A lot of people lost their jobs. A
lot of people have been cited and prosecuted, and I have been reading
some of the decisions of the Supreme Court on them that were
prosecuted.
The Chairman. A lot of workers lost their lives, too, in Hungary
as a result of this conspiracy that we are trying to find out about.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick. I don't know anything about Hungary.
The Chairman. You read the papers. You said you read the
papers. You can find out very easily all about Hungary.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick, I decline on the first amendment and I don't think it
is pertinent to this committee's investigation, and from reading the
"\Yatkins decision I don't think this committee — I think that they con-
firmed in this Sujireme Court decision that I don't have sufficient time
to consult on these questions. I think it is written in this decision,
if I can read it, maybe I am wrong.
The CnAiR]\rAN. You need not bother. I know you are going to do
that. But your lawyer did not hand you the decision that followed
the Watkins decision.
Mr. NoRRiCK. My lawyer didn't give me this decision.
The Chairiman. In the first place, let me read you what the law is
now. This is the later pronouncement.
Mr. Meyers. May I ask from what you are reading ?
The Chairman. "In the first place, we believe that if the Court in-
tended to strike down the resolution" — that is, the resolution creating
this committee — "it would have said so in so many words."
COMIMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2053
So yon are readinf^ the wrono; law there.
]\[r. NoRRicK. What decision are you readin<:; from, sir?
The CuAiRMAN. What difference does it make? You are not a
lawyer.
Mv. NoRRiCK. I know that. I know that.
The Chairman. I am readin<T what the law is. I am telling you
what the law is.
]\Ir. NoRRicK. You are reading: a decision.
The Chairman. I am not chargin*:; you for it, either.
]Mr. NoRRiCK. You might at the end.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. NoRRicK. From what court, sir ?
The Chairman. Never mind. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavknner. Mr. Norrick, you said 3'ou didn't believe the ques-
tion I asked you was pertinent. You are not seriously contending
that 3'ou do not see the pertinency of that question are you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick. Yes.
Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. Aren't you just parroting what you say you read
in a decision of the Supreme Court without any relationship to the
factual situation that exists here ?
(Tlie Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
]\Ir. Norrick. I don't understand.
]Mr. Tavtcnner. Well, you have said you didn't understand the
pertinency of the question, when the question on its face shows its
pertinency, and I can't believe you are in good faith raising the ques-
tion of pertinency.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
ilr. Ta\^nner. If you are honest in it, I will explain it.
INIr. Norrick. Please explain.
Mr. Tavenner. This committee through its chairman has stated
that the purpose of this hearing is to receive testimony regarding the
techniques and tactics of the Communist Party in infiltration into
basic industry in this area, of which Youngstown is a part, and that
it will receive testimony regarding the extent, the objects, and the
purpose of Communist Party propaganda in basic industry. That is
what the subject of this inquiry is. Now, I ask you the question, as
to what you know about Communist Party activities in this area,
which is the exact subject of this
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
JSIr. Tavenner (continuing). Wait a minute — of this inquiry.
Mr. ScHERER. I think counsel for the witness should let the witness
at least listen to Mr. Tavenner's question before he tells him what to
say. I have been watching counsel putting words into the witness'
mouth.
Mr. Meyers. You have been watching me but don't know what I
said to him. I said to him "Let him finish the question," and I also
told him he can then ask me for advice.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, the reasoning of the committee is this : That
if you have information regarding the activities of the Communist
Party, and we ask you to give it to us — that directly relates to this
subject matter of this hearing — the two are practically the same thing.
2054 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Tlie question that I asked you and the subject are virtually the same
thing.
IMr. NoRRiCK. But you don't explain what you mean by infiltration.
Mr. Ta\t:nxer. Is that your trouble ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
]\Ir. Ta\t:nner. Now, you say you don't understand what is meant
by infiltration. Infiltration means that a member of the Communist
Party desires to become employed in an industry and to impart in that
industry the Communist Party program as he receives it and is
directed.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
IVIr. Ta\t:nner. Now my question, you recall, related to Communist
Party activities in your particular group at Youngstown. Now I
think I have explained fully enough the pertinency of the question.
And I will ask the chairman, unless he thinks otherwise, to direct you
to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
]\lr. NoRRiCK. I decline to answer that on the first amendment and
I don't think it is pertinent to the committee's — I don't think the
committee has power to ask me that question mider the first amend-
ment and —
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
. ]\lr. NoRRicK (continuing). And the Committee on Un-American
Activities, as a whole or the subcommittee, is authorized from time to
time, to make investigations as to the extent, character, and objects
of the un-American propaganda activities and so forth.
The Chairman. What are you reading from ?
]\Ir, ]\Ieyers. That is what we are asking.
Mr. NoRRicK. The Supreme Court decision.
It would be difficult to imagine a less explicit authorizing resolu-
tion.
That is the Supreme Court, not me.
Who can define the meaning of "un-American"? ^"\niat is that
single, solitary, "principle of the government as guaranteed by our
Constitution"?
There is no need to dwell upon the language, however. At one
time, perhaps, the resolution might have been read narrowly to con-
fine the committee to the subject of propaganda. The events that
have transpired in the 15 years before the interrogation of peti-
tioner make such a construction impossible at this date.
I think I am within my rights.
The Chairman. That is the Watkins decision ?
INIr. NoRRicK. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. This is a decision that is dicta. You ought to
know what I mean by that.
]Mr. NoRRicK. No.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. NoRRiCK. I don't understand what you mean.
The Chairman. You are telling me, a lawyer, what the law is?
Mr. NoRRicK. No. Far from it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
OOMMtJNlST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2055
Mr. NoRRicK. I am just trying to keep from getting cited for per-
jury, from some of these paid witnesses. You might get a witness to
say anything.
The CiiAiKMAN. That is neither the policy of tliis connnittee nor
the practice of this committee, nor of any Government agency.
Go a] lead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party at
this time?
Mr. NoRRiCK. I refuse to answer for the reasons already given.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Haven't you been in the leadership of the Com-
munist Party for a number of years in the Youngstown plant?
JSIr. NoRRicK. I refuse to answer for the reasons already given.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
JMr. NoRRicK. I refuse for the reasons given.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the practice of the Com-
munist Party in bringing in young men from eastern colleges who
have received excellent educational training and who are very bright
young men to take menial positions in labor with a view of build-
ing themselves up from the grassroots, so to speak, to become labor
union leaders under the influence of the Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred wuth his counsel.)
Mr. NoRRiCK. I refuse to answer for the reasons already given.
LIr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Edward Yellin?
(The witness conferred witli liis counsel.)
Mr. NoRRicK. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons al-
ready given. It is broad and far reaching. You might ask me to
name a lot of them in the county. I have been here a long time. I
don't want to name a lot of them. I can't name a lot of them.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, can you name him? I am not asking you
about a lot of people.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. NoRRTCK. I refuse for the reasons I have already given you, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Robert Kates?
Mr. Norrick. Same answer.
Mr. Tamsnner. Do you know Robert Lehrer ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Al Samter ?
Mr. Norrick. Same answer.
Mr. Scherer. The fact is, Witness, that all of these people that
counsel just named are engaged Avith you presently in ])romoting
Communist Party propaganda and activities within steel, is that not a
fact ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick. I refuse to answer on the same grounds I answered
before.
JMr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Katherine Hyndman?
Mr. Norrick. I refuse on tlie same grounds that I stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is the head of the Communist Party at this
time in Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
2056 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. XoRRicK. I decline to answer on the same grounds as stated
before.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Is the Communist Party at this time endeavoring
to reorganize and strengthen its activities within basic industry ?
(The witness conferred with his counseh)
Mr. NoRRicK. I will have to refuse to answer for the reasons al-
ready given.
The Chairmajst, You do not have to. You are not under any com-
pulsion. Do you refuse to answer ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. I direct an answer to that question.
Mr. NoRRicK. I don't think that the committee has the power to
inquire into that for the reasons I have given.
The Chair]\l\n. Do you feel lionestly that this committee has no
power to inquire into the question of whether or not the Communists
are attempting to take over the labor unions in the steel industry?
Do you honestly feel that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Norrick. Well, I think that is what the Supreme Court says.
I think that is what the Constitution says. So I feel that I have
them rights.
The Chairman. You better stick to your last ones.
Mr. Taa^nner. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. All right. Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Victor Malis.
The Chairman. Kaise your right hand, please.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give shall be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Mr. Malis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
lEVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mr. Malts. Victor Malis.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel identify himself for the record,
please.
Mr. Meyers. My name is Irving Meyers. I am from Chicago.
At this time I w^ould like to call to the committee's attention tliat I
sent a telegram on Saturday last requesting that an executive session
be held in lieu of this open session in reference to this witness and
others. And I would like to have that. I repeat the request. I
would like to have it rendered of record and I would like to have
an answer to my request.
The Chairman. In view of the fact that the telegram has never
been received by the chairman of this committee, it was delivered in
Washington while the chairman was in Gary, Ind,, and because no
opportunity has been had to study it to determine wliether or not it
was sent in ^ood faith, the request to delay or defer hearing this
witness is denied.
Mr. Meitirs. I didn't ask to defer it or delay. I merely asked for
an executive session and you had the telegram in your hands yester-
day, a copy of it, which I presented in another matter.
The Chalrala-n. A copy, yes.
COMMUNIST INPILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2057
Mr. Meters. Yes, and I sent it on Saturday.
The Chairman. I said the telegram will be considered. Go ahead,
Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. AVlien and -where Avere you born, Mr. Malls?
Mr. Malts. Gary, Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the date of your birth ?
Mr. Malis. October 30, 1912.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the nature of your employment?
Mr. Malts. Steel worker.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a steel worker?
Mr. Malts. Well, all of my adult life.
INIr. Tavenner. Did you serve in the Armed Forces of the United
States?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Ciiatrman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Meii-ers. What was that question?
Mr. Malts. Repeat that question.
The Ciiatrman. If you would pay some attention to us you would
know what this is all about, Mr. Malis.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. My question was whether or not you served in the
Armed Forces of the ITnited States.
]\Ir. Malts. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time ?
Mr. Malts. From April 1941 to October 1945.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. So with the exception of the period you were in
the armed services you have been an employee in steel at least from
1940 until the present time, haven't you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ISIalis. By far the biggest part.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there some part of that time when you were
employed elsew^here ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Yes. I worked somewhere else.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where was that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malts. I am not too sure — 3 or 4 months in the year of 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you work during that period ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malts. I don't think it is pertinent to this committee and T am
going to exercise my right under the first amendment. I don't think
this committee has got any right to infringe on my thinking and my
political beliefs.
The Chatrman. We are not asking you about your political beliefs
at all. Are you anticipating a question when you say that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. We are merely asking where you were employed,
not whether or not you were a Communist.
Mr. Malts. I refuse to tell you that because I don't think it is within
your power to ask me that.
IVIr. Sciterer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question — where you
were employed.
Mr. Malts. Pardon?
The Chairjman. You are directed to answer the question.
2058 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY
(The witness conferred with counsel.)
Mv. ]\Ialis. Well, for 3 or 4 months in 1950 I did not work in the
steel industry, and I just refuse to answer the question.
The Chairman. Were you an employee then of the Communist
Party ? Is that why you refuse to answer ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. JNIalis. I worked in a restaurant. After that I am using my
first amendment.
Mr. SciiERER. ^Vliat is that ?
Mr. INIalis. First amendment rip^hts.
Mr. Tavenner. I think, Mr. Chairman, we better swear in counsel.
Mr. ScuERER. I am beginning to think so, too.
Mr. Meyers. I must tell you I represent a steel worker who is not
too literate. He certainly knows nothing of the law. He certaiidy
doesn't understand your purposes because the Supreme Court doesn't
quite understand it.
Mr. Tavenner. He is the one that knows the facts, though.
Mr. Meyers. He doesn't understand your questions.
The Chairman. We are not asking him any legal questions. We are
asking him questions of fact.
Mr. Meyers. But your questions may carry legal implications.
The Chairman. Well, have you read the rules of this committee ?
Mr. Meyers. I have.
The Chairman. I wish you would observe them.
Mr. Meyers. I intend to and try to.
The Chairman. Don't interrupt. Counsel. Don't prevent the wit-
ness from listening to the questions that are being propounded and
don't put the answers in his mouth.
Mr. JMeyers. Will you ask my witness if I am doing that?
The Chairman. I do not have to. I can see you telling him. I am
not entirely blind.
Mr. Meyers. I am sorry. You are misinterpreting what occurs.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You state, then, that you worked in a restaurant
during those 3 or 4 months in 1950, is that what I understood you
to say?
Mr. Malis. Yes, I did.
Mr. Taat^nner. Where was that restaurant located?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I refuse to answer that under the first amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Whose restaurant was that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Mams. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Why?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I just refuse to answer under the first amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I ask you to direct the witness.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Tavenner. Did you give up fourteen years of seniority in your
labor union in order to take that three months job?
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2059
Mr. INIalis. I think under the first amendment this committee isn't
empowered to ask me that question. Therefore, I use the first
amendment.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. You are directed to answer that
question. And may I say to you under the law if you assume some-
thing improperly then you must answer the consequences. I direct
you to answer this last question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. INIalis. I repeat that I don't think that this committee has a
right to ask me that type of question, and 1 would also like to state
that from time to time I would like to confer with my attorney here
because I
The Chairman. We have no objection to that.
Mr. Malis. I can't face a bunch of smart men like you.
The Chairman. Before you have a chance to confer with him he
leans over and tells you what to say.
JVIr. Malis. I am for it.
The Chairman. Of course you are. I can understand that.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should reflect that
on pi'actically every question that has been asked this witness there
has been a lengthy conference between him and his counsel before he
has answered.
Mr. Meyers. I would dispute the length of your reference. It is
true that we confer frequently but I have a person unlettered in law.
The Chairman. I could understand how important it would be to
get legal advice for the question where you were employed for a few
months. I can understand that.
Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner. Ask the next question.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party meet in its meetings at
the location of this restaurant which you operated for a period of 3
months?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I decline on the first amendment.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I decline for all the reasons I have stated.
Mr. Tavenner. AVere you induced by the Communist Party to
undertake the management of that restaurant so that it \vould have
a place to meet?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I refuse for the same reason as given before.
Mv. Tavenner. Was the Communist Party at that particular time,
1950, having difficulty in maintaining a place where it could meet
in secrecy ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Same answer as before.
Mr. Tavenner. For what reason did you terminate your employ-
ment, or for what reason was your employment terminated at that
restaurant?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Same answer.
23178—58 8
2060 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. Was the name of the restaurant at which yon worked
the Gary Cooperative Restaurant at 1428 Broadway, Gary, Ind. ?
]\Ir. Malis. Same answer on that.
Tlie Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Malts. I have to repeat I am using the same answer.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what means are
being used by the Communist Party at this time, that is, right now, to
strengthen its hold in labor unions in Gary ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malts. I refuse to answer that question for th(! same reasons I
have stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Could I have a direction ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Malts. I still refuse.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Are you at this time an active leader in the Com-
munist Party in Gary, Ind. ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. M.\LTS. Same answer.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Could I have a direction?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mr. Malis.
Mr. INIalis. Just a minute.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. JNIalts. I refuse to answer that, using the first amendment and
the other reasons I have stated.
Mr. SciiERER. Did the other reasons include the use of the fifth
amendment ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malts. Well, I would like to have someone clarify the fifth
amendment. I really don't know too much about the fifth amendment.
]Mr. ScHERER. You have a lawyer to clarify the fifth amendment.
He has been clarifying everything else.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Meyers. You objected to my attempts before.
Mr. Sctierer. No ; just on telling him what to say on factual ques-
tions. Counsel.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Meters. There is a due process in the first amendment that he
doesn't understand, but he doesn't waive that, but if you are talking
about the
The Chairman. That due process clause is in the fifth amendment.
]Mr. Meters. In the fifth, I mean.
The Chairman. You said the first.
ISIr. ]\Ieters. I meant the fifth. So he doesn't waive that.
The Chatr^sean. All right.
Mr. Meters. Nor does he waive the section which says that every
man shall be protected as to his life, liberty, or property. Nor does he
waive some other section, if you please, but he certainly is not asserting
his privilege against self-incrimination if that is what you mean.
Is that right ?
JNIr. JNIalis. That is correct.
The Chairman. This is not as funny as you think it is.
Mr. IMalis. I just lauglied because they made me laugh. They
laughed back there. I know it is not funny.
CJOMMUNIST mFTLTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY 2061
The Chairman. In a few weeks the Congress will be called upon to
appropriate huge sums of money in another phase of this cold war.
I say another phase advisedly. Why don't you help us in the phase
that we are responsible for combating?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. I withdraw that. Go ahead and ask a question, Mr.
Counsel.
JSIr. Tavenner. What is the strength of the Communist Party mem-
bership, or in other words, what is the size of the membership of the
Communist Party in your union now ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
ilr. M\Lis. I decline for all the reasons 1 have given.
Mr. Tax'enner. One of those reasons was that of pertinency and
here I think I will explain a little something, in addition to what has
already been said, and that is that this committee has for consideration
a House resolution which provides for the amendment of the. Com-
munist Control Act of 1954, placing a penalty under section 4 of that
act to remain a member of the Communist Party with knowledge of
its purposes.
Now, it is important to this committee and the Congress to obtain
the information which it is now asking in order that it may properly
consider that bill. That is an additional reason to those already
assigned.
May I ask that the witness be directed to answer, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Well, I didn't attend the opening session yesterday and
I wasn't here and I don't understand it. I would like to have it ex-
plained tome.
The Chairman. What would you like to have explained to you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
]NIr. Malis. The purpose of the questioning me. The purpose of this
committee.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Have you read the opening statement that the
chairman made or had it read to you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. No, I haven't.
]\Ir. SciiEHER. Counsel was derelict in his duty, then.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Yes.
Has your counsel explained it to you ?
Mr. Malis. No, he hasn't.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. I hand it to you now.
(Statement handed to witness.)
INIr. JNIeyers. This is the first time counsel has seen it.
Mr. Tavenner. We will let you examine it.
INIr. Meyers. Have you seen it, before ?
Mr. Scheukr. It is an indication to me, counsel, that since you are
representing witnesses before this committee that you Avould have got-
ten one of those copies.
2062 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
The Chairman. It was read yesterday.
Mr. Meyers. It may have been read yesterday but this is the first
time I have seen it and my witness was not here when it was read.
Now I will turn it over to him to read.
The Chairman. You heard it read, didn't you ?
Mr. Meyers. I heard it read but he didn't, and I will explain it.
The Chairman. Then you are in a position to advise him.
Mr. Taatsnner. Let him read it over the lunch hour and then call
him back.
The Chairman. We will adjourn now and over the lunch hour you
can read it and you will be back after lunch having read it and being
advised fully.
Mr. Meyers. I will ask my client to read it over lunch time.
(Whereupon, at 1 : 03 p. m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1958
(Members present at the convening of the session were Congressmen
Walter and Scherer.)
The Chairman. The conmiittee will be in order.
May I again admonish you not to smoke.
Mr. Malis will resume the stand, please,
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Malis, you were directed to answer a question at
which time you answered that you were not present during the making
of the opening statement and you desired to see it.
We made it available for you during the noon recess. Have you
read the statement, the chairman's opening statement ?
Mr. Malis. Yes, I read it and certain things are very vague to me
here. I underlined it. I can't understand it and I asked my at-
torney
Mr. Scherer. He can't understand it ?
Mr. Malis. He doesn't seem to understand it, either,
Shalllreadittoyou?
The Chairman. Don't bother to read it. I wrote it.
Mr. Ta\t:nner, You have read the statement of the chairman and
you have studied it and you conferred with your counsel about it?
Mr. Malis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there any question now in your mind as to the
pertinency of the question that was asked of you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Meyers. "Wliat question was that, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question which he refused to answer, and I
believe I will ask the reporter to read it back to the witness :
(The record was read as follows :
("What is the strength of the Communist Party membership, or, in
other words, what is the size of the membership of the Communist
Party in your union now ?")
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I refuse to answer that for the reasons I have given
before.
(X)MMUNIST INFILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY 2063
The Chairman. I think in view of the fact that you had so much
time to reflect over the question and to read the purposes that I will
have to direct you to answer that question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. JNIalis. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I will have to refuse
again.
The Chairman. Yo do not have to. You are not under any com-
pulsion.
Mr. Malis. Well, I will refuse.
The Chairman. You refuse. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. "Will you tell the committee, please, whether to
your knowletlge young men have been brought in by the Communist
Party to the Gary, Ind., area and placed in work in labor unions since
1949?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Well, the answer is the same as before. I refuse to
answer it.
Mv. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Edward Yellin ?
ISIr. Malis. I refuse to answer it.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Robert Kates?
Mv. Malis. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Robert Lelirer ?
Mr. Malis. Refuse to answer.
Mv. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Al Samter ?
Mv. Malts. Refuse to ansAver.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not Katherine Hyndman,
who was ordered dej^orted in 1953, is now actively engaged in Com-
munist Party organizational work in Gary, Ind. ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I refuse to answer that under the first amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
Call your next witness.
Mv. Tavenner. Mr. Chris Malis.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand ?
Do you swear tliat the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, tlie whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Malis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CHEIS MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Taat:nner. Will you state your name, please?
Mv. Malis. My name is Chris Malis.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you also known as Cash Malis?
^Ir. Malis. Yes, I have had that nickname for some years.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accomj^anied by the same
counsel who accompanied the previous witness.
Mv. Meyers. My name is Irving Meyers. I am of Chicago, 111.,
and at this moment I should like to call your attention to the fact that
I sent a telegram last Saturday requesting an executive hearing and a
copy of which telegram I gave to the chairman yesterday. On behalf
of this witness I request such an executive hearing.
2064 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY
The Chairman. Despite the fact that I tliink 3^011 sent the telegram
after business hours so that I would not get it, I am going to grant
your request, so the witness is excused.
Mr. Taat:nner. And we will fix an executive session for him.
The Chairman. And will not waste the time of the committee here.
You are still under the subpena. We will let you know when the
executive session will be held so you be here when we adjourn and
we can tell you.
You will know where he is ?
Mr. Meters. Will you send me a notice, as well?
The Chairman. You will be here, won't you ?
INIr. Meyers. I will be here all day.
The Chairman. That is fine. We will oblige you.
Mr. Malis. Mr. Chairman, I am scheduled to go to work this eve-
ning. I don't know how long you figure to have me here. If it is
going to last long I must notify the plant that I work for.
The Chairman. I don't know. Your lawyer has requested that you
be given an executive hearing and we granted his request. If you are
disappointed that we did, I can't help it.
Mr. Taa-enner. If there is time we will arrange to do it this after-
noon.
The Chahiman. Call your next witness.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Mr. Walter Malis.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, INIr. JNIalis?
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing Ibut the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. ISLvLis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WALTER MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
lEVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state 3'^our name, please, sir ?
Mr. ]\Ialis. My name is Walter Malis.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you also known by the name of Sy ?
Mr. Malis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\^nner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
counsel.
INIr. Meyers. My name is Irving Meyers. I am from Chicago. I
would like to call this committee's attention to the fact that on Satur-
day last I sent a telegram requesting that in lieu of this hearing a hear-
ing be held in executive hearing and I would like to have a response to
my request.
The Chairman. The response is that we will be very glad to hear
your client in executive session. So if you will just step aside, we will
let you know when we can hear him.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. ;Mr. Willard ^Malis.
The Chairman. Eaise your right hand, please.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Malis. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down, please.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2065
TESTIMONY OF WILLARD MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JUSTIN WAITKUS
Mr. Tamsnner. What is your name, please, sir ^
Mr. Malis. Willarcl Malis.
Mr. Tavexner. Do you have a nickname, "Sully" ?
Mr. Malis. That is right.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record I
Air. Waitkus. My name is Justin Waitkus, 569 Broadway, Gary,
Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Malis?
Mr. Malis. Born in Gary, Ind., on March 28, 1916.
Mr. TA^TNNER. You now reside in Gary ?
Mr. Malis. All of my life.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you presently employed ?
Mr, Malis. I am presently employed as a loader in the 40-inch
blooming mill in Gary works of the U. S. Steel Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so emploj'ed ?
Mr. Malis. Since May of 1936.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state what your formal educational train-
ing has been ?
Mr. Malis. Normal grade school education and graduate of high
school.
Mr. Taatsnner. Mr. Malis, have you at any time been affiliated with
the Communist Party m Gary, Ind?
Mr. ]\L\Lis. Well, you might say remotely. I have belonged to cer-
tain — what is now called — front organizations. But as far as I know
I never signed an application blank to join the party or never at-
tended closed meetings and never considered myself under Commu-
nist Party discipline.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you were a member of certain front organ-
izations ?
Mr. Malis. That is right. What I know now to be listed as front —
or, I don't know. You know the term. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Those were organizations in which the Commu-
nists had either taken over control or had infiltrated.
Mr. Malis. Something on that nature.
Mr. Tavenner. What were those organizations to which you refer?
Mr. Malis. Well, one was a fraternal organization called the IWO,
wliich paid insurance and like your other fraternal organizations.
The other was a Litlmanian fraternal organization.
Mr. Tavenner. What was its name ?
Mr. Malis. The initials were LDS, which mean something in the
Lithuanian language. My mother enrolled me for the insurance
benefits.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Lautner, who was the first witness during this
hearing, explained to the committee how on a national level the work
of the Communist Party was planned to use the IWO in Communist
Party activities. Will you tell us whether or not any member of the
Communist Party was instrumental in having you join the IWO?
Mr. Malis. No. Like I said, my mother enrolled me in this and
she was the one was instrumental in entering me in there.
2066 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tamcnner. How long did you remain a member of the IWO ?
Mv. Malis. Well, to the best of my knowledge, approximately 1939
or 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain that I understood just wliat you
meant by beino; a member of front organizations. AVere any of these
organizations in which you were a member engaged in Communist
Party activities within the steel unions?
Mr. Malis. My honest answer to that is that I never saw any
such activity. It might have been there and I didn't see it. I don't
know.
Mr. Ta\tsnner. Is Victor Malis a brother of yours ?
Mr. Malis. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of his employment at the restaurant
which he testified about, the cooperative restaurant?
Mr. INIalis. I heard that he left his employment to go to work in a
restaurant, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the circumstances under which lie was
induced to leave that employment?
Mr. Malis. Absolutely not. I have heard all kinds of rumors and
all I could say is I would be quoting a rumor if I told you I knew.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not closely enough identified with the
matter to have personal knowledge of your own?
Mr. Malis. That is true.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time attend Communist Party
meetings ?
Mr. Malis. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. By that do you mean to indicate you attended meet-
ings as to which there is some question in your mind whether or not
they were Communist Party meetings?
Mr. Malts, Yes. As I stated before, I was in tliese other organ-
izations and I wouldn't be able to tell you if you would consider this
a Communist organization or a front or what you would call it, but
I do say that I don't recall of ever signing an application card into
the party or attending a meeting, a closed meeting, other than I may
have attended a mass meeting sponsored by the party.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the address of the restaurant which we
referred to a moment ago of which your brother was a manager?
Mr. Malis. I don't know the address, but I know it is a couple of
doors north of 13th and Broadway.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend meetings at that place?
Mr. Malis. Absolutely not.
Mr. Tavenner. From your statement you are not now a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Malis. I am not.
And I would like to say there is a statement here in the paper which
you aren't responsible for, but the misconception is there. LaFleur's
testimony was given that so and so and so, and my name is listed. It
said all of them, LaFleur testified, were meinbers of the Communist
Party when he was forced out of the ranks in 1952. Now, that I
want clarified. That is absolutely a falsehood.
Mr. Tavenner. Were vou a member of the Communist Party at anv
time between 1940 and 1952?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2067
Mr. Malis. As I said before, I don't ever recall joining the Com-
munist Party and if I never joined I don't see how I could ever got
out. You understand what I am saying?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Did you meet with others and discuss Com-
munist Party matters at any time during the period from 1940 to
1952?
Mr. Malts. I am glad you asked that. And I can categorically
state I never engaged in any sort of meeting of such a nature and I
never would consider it, and I want that clear for the press and every-
one to know, because the subpena that I was served with has black-
ened my name no end and I want that made clear.
Mr. Tavenner. AVell, you deny, then, ever having had any con-
nection with the Communist Party, either by way of membership or
taking part in Communist Party meetings.
Mr. Malis. I will stand by that.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of the holding of Com-
munist Party meetings ?
Mr. Malis. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. "Were you invited to a Communist Party meeting?
Mr. Malis. I made myself clear to anyone who would listen to me
that I was not interested in joining the party, participating in any ac-
tivities it advocated. I don't know how to put it, but that is the gen-
eral idea.
Mr. Tavenner. Why was it that you refused to become a member of
the Communist Party when your membership was sought?
Mr. Malis. Well, as funny as it may seem with the other witnesses
that you have questioned, when I got employment
Mr. Sciierer. Pardon me. When you say "other witnesses you ques-
tioned" are you referring to your brothers wdio just testified ?
Mr. Malis. I think the inference is there. The assumption seemed
to be in the public mind, in the press' mind, "Here is five solid brothers
that are the nucleus of tliis organization," and I want to put the
record straight that it is not so.
Mr. Sciierer. You mean that your brothers are not Communists?
Mr. Malis. I am not saying that.
Mr. Sciierer. I thought that is what you said.
Mr. Malis. I am not saying what anyone else is. I am speaking
for myself.
Mr. Sciierer. I want it clear, when you were referring to other
witnesses, w^hether you were referring to all the other witnesses called
by this committee or your brothers.
Mr. Malis. No, I w^as more or less referring to my brothers. It
seems to me to be a conspiracy to say, "Here is five brothers that are
the center of this whole conspiracy," w^iich is what is in the minds
of the public, you might say.
Mr. Tavenner. No, I don't think we would go that far.
Mr. Malis. The press seems to.
Mr. Tavenner. But we are very anxious to know the part that
Katherine Hyndman is now playing in the reestablishment of the
Communist Party in this area.
Mr. Malis. I can say I don't know Katherine Hyndman and all I
know of her is what I read in the papers.
2068 coMnnjNisT infiltration in basic industry
Mr. SciiERER. You say the only way you know Katherine Ilyndman
is what you read in the papers ?
Mr. Malts. That is right. What I read in the papers about her.
Mr. SciiERER. You don't know her otherwise ?
Mr. Malis. Absolutely not. I know her face. I seen her face
enough. I seen her walking up and down the streets. There has been
enough publicity about her that anyone would recognize her.
Mr. Tavenner. I am interested to know why it is you refused to
become a member of the Communist Party when your membership
was sought.
Mr. Malts. Well, I don't know that it was sought. Early in my
life, in my adult life, you might say, when I left the teens, I had
my mind clear that the American system was the thing for me, and it
was better illustrated when I thouglit I would never get employment
in the steel industry because of associations from way back, and
when I was hired it was a day I will never forget. It was a day I
never expected to see. I got employment in there. I worked for
4 years and got married, raised a faTnily, started to accumulate an
estate, or whatever you might call it. I started to establish myself
and you just can't beat that.
Mr. Scherer. Why did you say. Witness, that because of associa-
tions way back vou thought you would never get a job?
Mr. Malts. Well, I think
Mr. Scherer. What did you mean by that ?
Mr. IVIalis. I think you are now familiar enough with the name to
know there was a certain stigma attached to that name.
Mr. Scherer. Oh, I see.
Mr. Malts. And it carried Avay back to the depression days.
Mr. Scherer. Were you the youngest of the Malises?
Mr. Malts. I am next to the youngest.
Mr, Tavenner. Well, I believe, Mr. Malis, if there is no informa-
tion you can give us about the activities of the Communist Party or
activities in the last five or more years, Iti this area
Mr. Malis. You are right.
Mr. Tavenner, There is nothing else that I would care to ask you.
]SIr. Malis. I would ask the press to treat me fairly in the press and
I think I got enough bad publicity out of this whole deal that the
press owes me an apology, listing my name amongst people engaged in
subversion and without a clear statement that I am not engaged.
I think I still remain under that cloud. I think the press owes me
that.
The Chairman. I think the statement you made about our system
certainly speaks for itself. With all its imperfections it is the best in
the world, the best that has ever been devised.
If there are no further questions, the witness is excused.
Mr. Malts. Thank you.
The Chair^ian. Thank you .
Mr. Malts. Thank you. I am very well treated here. I almost had
a heart attack.
The Chairman. Were you surprised? Were you surprised that
you were treated fairly ?
]\Ir. INIalts. Yes. You bet I was.
The Chairman, You know there has been a drive all over the United
States to create the impression that this committee does not treat wit-
(COMMUNIST INFILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY 2069
nesses fairly and the technique is always the same. It does not make
any difference who is chairman of this committee, the moment he be-
comes chairman, that moment there is a question of even the legitimacy
of his birth and that carries on so long as he is chairman of the com-
mittee. That is a well-known tactic in order to try to discredit, first,
the chairman, then the committee, and in that way the work of the
Congress.
Now, it might be interesting to you, and speaking to a good Ameri-
can as I am
Mr. Malis. That is true.
The Chairman. To know that when this committee was created,
there were 42 Members who voted against it and I was one of them.
I now find myself chairman of the committee that I voted against
creating.
But more significant is the fact that every single time the Congress
of the United States has passed on the appropriations for our com-
mittee it has either done it by a unanimous vote — last year there was
one vote against it and this year two votes against. The membership
know their colleagues. They know we would not be unfair to any-
body.
Mr. Malis. Thank you very much, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Malis.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Joseph Gyurko.
The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gyurko. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH GYUEKO, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
lEVING MEYEES
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Gyurko. Joseph Gyurko, Jr.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name?
Mr. Gyurko. G-y-u-r-k-o.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record?
Mr. Meyers. My name is Irving IMeyers. I am a lawyer from Chi-
cago, 111., and I would like to call the committee's attention to the
fact that on Saturday last, I sent a telegram to the chairman asking
that if the hearing should be held it should be an executive hearing
m place of an open hearing, and I repeat the request this morning.
The Chairman. At what time was that telegram sent, do you
know ?
Mr. Meyers. I don't recall. I sent the girl out of the office around
noontime Saturday. She went over, I think, to the Sherman Hotel
in Chicago, mailed it to the only address we knew you to be at, AVash-
ington, and I gave you a copy of that very telegram yesterday in this
hearing.
The Chairman. Of course, I am entitled to my own opinion. I
think you waited until after business hours to send it.
Mr. Meyers. That is not so, but you are entitled to a misconception
if you wish.
2070 COMlVIUNISfr UiFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
The Chairman. I don't care what you think about it. That is
what I think you would do and did do it.
We are going to allow your request, and we will go into an executive
session now.
In closing the public hearings, I want to express the appreciation
of the committee to the officials here, particularly the custodian of
this building, Frank O'Bara ; Chief of Police, John Foley ; the United
States marshals; and others who have been of assistance to us.
This is not an easy job. It is distasteful to all of us. There are other
things that we would much rather do than sit here and be compelled
to listen to the things that the witnesses say.
The committee is adjourned. We will then go into executive ses-
sion.
('\Miereupon, at 2: 27 p. m., Tuesday, February 11, 1958, the sub-
committee recessed to reconvene in executive session the same day.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST INFILTRATION AND
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN BASIC INDUSTRY
(Gary, Ind., Area)
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1957
United States House of Representati\t:s,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Actr-ities,
Gary^ Ind.
executive session ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to call, at 2 : 40 p. m., in the council chamber, Municipal
Building, Gary, Inch, Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Francis E. Walter
of Pennsylvania, and Gordon H. Scherer of Ohio.
Staff members present : Frank S. Ta vernier, Jr., counsel, and Ray-
mond T. Collins, investigator.
The Chair]man. Let the record show that an executive session for
the purpose of hearing sundry witnesses subpenaed for the public
sessions has been convened.
Mr. Ta^tinner. I think you better swear in the witness again.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gyurko. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH GYUEKO, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavenner. T^^iat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Meyers. Chairman, I am going to object to the presence of two
persons seated in the audience, who I don't believe to be members of
the committee or members of your staff.
The Chairman. The objection will be noted on the record.
Mr. ]\Ieyers. May I ask that they be identified ?
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. Meyers. I ask that they be identified.
The Chairman. These are men connected with the Department of
Justice.
Mr. Meyers. This is not a committee of the Department of Justice.
The Chairman. I understand that. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. State your name, please.
Mr. Gyurko. Joseph Gyurko, Jr.
* Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
2071
2072 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
^Ir. Tavkxner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself?
Mr. Meyers. My name is Irving Meyers, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Gyurko, you were called in open session before
the committee a few moments ago and requested that you be given an
executive session, and that request has been honored by the committee.
Mr. Meyers. Requested in lieu of an open session. We don't request
any session, but we want it in lieu of an open session.
Mv. SciiERER. Let us get on.
JNIr. Tavenner. When and where were you bom, Mr. Gyurko?
Mr. Gyurko. "\^nien?
Mr. Ta%t:nner. Yes, when — when and where?
Mr. Gi-DRKO. March 15, 1919, in South Chicago, 111. This district
Mr. Ta-stinner. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Gyurko. I reside in Hammond, 3835 — l76th Place.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Hammond?
Mr. Gyurko. Well, I would have to consult my mother, because I
was just a few years old, maybe 1923 or 1924.
Mr. Ta\'enner. A^Hiat is your present employment ?
Mr. Gyurko. I work in the steel mills as a steelworker.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you worked in that capacity ?
Mr. Gyurko. It was 18 years ago last October.
Mr. Tamsnner. While you have been employed in the steel mills at
Hammond have you been
Mr. Gyurko. Hammond, sir?
Mr. Ta-s^nner. Where did you say — Hammond ?
Mr. Gyurko. No. No, I didn't. I did not say Hammond.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you say you now reside ?
Mr. Gyurko. I live in Hammond.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere are you employed ?
Mr. Gyurko. In Inland Steel, Indiana.
Mr. Tavenner. I beg your pardon. Where is that located ?
Mr. Gyurko. Indiana Harbor.
Mr. Ta-\^nner. That is in Lake County ?
Mr. Gyurko. That is right.
Mr. Ta^t:nner. Indiana ?
Mr. Gyurko. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed at Inland Steel ?
Mr. Gyurko. It has been 18 years last October.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
there is at this time an organized group of the Communist Party
among the employees of Inland Steel ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gyurko. I don't think it is a valid question under the first
amendment to ask me on that question. I don't think the committee
has a right to come to this community and ask me that question.
Under my rights under the first amendment I understand I don't have
to answer it.
IMr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness.
Mr. Gyurko. Furthermore, it is not pertinent.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gyurko. Furthermore, it is not pertinent to your powers or
your authority.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2073
Mr. Ta\tenner. Since he was directed to answer, the witness now
says it was not a pertinent question. So lie raises that objection.
Mr. Meyers. He raises more. I don't know if you heard it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he raise the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Meyers. No.
Mr. Tavenner. What other question did he raise after raising the
question of pertinency ?
Mr. Meyers. He sought to
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you. I am asking the witness.
(Tlie witness conferred with his counseL)
Mr. Gydrko. I don't think you are authorized to do this type of
questioning, and I don't think it is pertinent.
Mr. Tavenner. That is wliat I understood you to say. You have
read the opening statement by the chairman, have you not ?
(The witness conferred witli his counseL)
Mr. Gyurko. I didn't read it. No, I didn't read it.
Mr. Tavenner. A copy was given to your attorney during the noon
hour. Did you see it in his possession ?
Mr. Meyers. Were you with me ?
Mr. Gytjrko. I went out to eat with my wife. I didn't go with him
at noon.
JNIr. Tavenner. Your attorney did not call it to your attention ?
Mr. Meyers. Tell him.
Mr. Gyurko. No. I didn't go with him.
Mr. Scherer. That isn't the question, whether you went with him
or not. Did he, or didn't he, call it to your attention ?
Mr. Tavenner. Did he or didn't he ?
Mr. Gyurko. No, I said no.
Mr. Tavenner. It would seem that if you knew you were to be called
as a witness and that your counsel requested a copy of this opening
statement, if you meant to be raising a question seriously here about
pertinency, tliat you would at least inquire as to the opening statement
which the chairman made.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Why didn't you do it ?
(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Meyers. I might say that the attorney didn't get a copy until
today. I heard the statement yesterday but I didn't
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the hearing room just before the noon
recess ?
Mr. Gyurko. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You heard the question raised there by the witness,
Mr. Victor Mai is, that he had not seen a copy of the opening state-
ment, and therefore the meeting was adjourned at that time so that he
could read it and so his counsel, who is now your counsel, could also
have it. You heard all that, didn't you ?
Mr. Gyurko. Yes.
ISIr. Tavenner. Then why didn't you examine it during the noon
hour?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Sciierer. Or since?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
2074 COMMUNIST rNTILTRATION EST BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Gyurko. If I remember ri^ht, when that question came up,
you ^ive him a copy and you told him to go read it during lunch hour.
JNIr. Tavenner. That is right.
Mv. Gyurko. You told him to read it.
Mr. Tavenner. And I gave a copy to his attorney, who is now your
attorney.
Mr. Gyurko. Pardon me for interrupting. They were reading it;
I wasn 't. I went to 1 unch.
Mr. Tavenner. You weren't interested in reading it, were you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gyurko. I didn't know I was supposed to read it during lunch
hour.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Let me tell you briefly
Mr. Gyurko. Pardon me
Mr. Ta\^nner. That the chairman announced in his opening state-
ment that the subject of this hearing was the reception of evidence
relating to the techniques and tactics of tlie Communist Party in its
infiltration of basic industry and also the extent and character and
objects of Communist Party propaganda activities within basic
industry. That is the subject under inquiry. The question that was
asked you related to your knowledge of Communist Party activities
within basic industry now.
That is pertinent because it relates to the very subject which the
committee is undertaking to consider. It is self-evident from the
nature of the question that it is pertinent to the subject, and it is
hard to understand how your objection is based on good faith.
Now with that explanation, Mr. Chairman, I request that the witness
be directed to answer.
Tlie Chairman. Yes. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gyurko. First of all, it is pretty vague to me — your line of
questioning.
Mr. ScnERER. Did not your counsel just tell you to say that — that
it is pretty vague to you? Didn't your counsel just tell you to say
that?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gyurko. Sir, I have hired this lawyer to be my counsel, and
I think I have a right to talk with him.
Mr. SciiERER. No one said you did not have. There is a calculated
plan afoot to delay these hearings and harass the committee by you
and your lawyer. It is so obvious. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to di-
rect the witness to answer the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. ScTiERER. If he does not answer, let us go on.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
]\Ir. G^niRKo. Your powers and authority are vague, and I still stand
on tlie first amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now an active member of the Communist
Party?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
!Mr. G-i-uRKO. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
;Mr. SciiERER. I think there should be a direction to answer.
The CiiAiEiiAN. Yes. You are directed to answer that question.
OOIMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2075
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gturko. Same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. Call your other witnesses.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you call Mr. Chris Malis to come in ?
The Chairman. Mr. Malis, will you raise your right hand? Do
you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole tnith, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Malis. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CHRIS MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mr. Malis. Chris Malis.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. Meyers. ]My name is Irving Meyers. I am a lawyer from
Chicago.
At this moment I Avish to protest the presence of two men who, I
understand, are from the Department of Justice sitting in the audi-
ence. I understand they are not with the committee, but they are
from the Department from Mr. Walter's statement.
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Malis ?
Mr. Meters. Are they given the right to sit in on this session ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. They have been.
Mr. Malis. I was bom in Gary, Ind., April 11, 1918.
Mr. Tavenner. You were called in open session of the committee
and requested a closed session, which request was granted. Wliy did
you request a closed session ?
Mr. Malis. Because I feel that this concerns me alone. I think
there has been too much unfair publicity given me before even a
single question was asked.
Mr. Tavenner. If it had been in open session, you would have had
an opportunity to have made an open and public denial of any testi-
mony that adversely affected you during the course of the hearing.
Mr. Malis. I am not the most fluent speaker. I feel like I want
to have time to try to gather my thoughts the best I can and also to
consult yviih my counsel, if I found it necessary.
Mr. Tavenner. You didn't really want to make an open, public
statement denying the testimony that had been introduced here re-
garding you, did you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. IMalis. I feel that I appeared here as a subpenaed witness. I
am not here because I wanted to. I came here because a subpena was
served me. I feel that too much publicity has coine of this already,
and I don't want any further publicity.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Malis, how are you employed?
Mr. Malis. I am employed in the plate mill of Gary Works.
Mr. Ta\^nner. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Malis. Since September of 1939, with two and one-half years
for service in the United States Navy.
23178—58—9
2076 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time were you in the United
States Navy?
Mr. Malis. From May of 1943 to November of 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether at this
time there is an organized group of the Communist Party working
among the employees in the Gary plant where you are employed?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Before I answer that question, I would like to set the
record straight a little bit. I am not capable of gathering my
thoughts as some people are ; and, since I have been served this sub-
pena, I have done a lot of thinking about it, and I jotted down a few
notes that I would like to read here before I answer that question.
I would like to state them here. I think that
The Chairman. It is a simple question. You can answer the
question.
Mr. Malis. I feel it possibly can be answered simply. But I feel
that there is a lot more involved here than just a simple answer, and
I think when I make that answer I want it a little clearer, a little
more clearer, why I arrived at such an answer.
The Chairman. Let us have your answer first and then you can
explain your answer.
Mr. Malis. Explain it immediately after I make the answer?
TheCiiAmMAN. Yes.
Mr. Malis. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it
is an invasion of my rights as guaranteed under the first amendment
to the Constitution, that my rights of freedom of speech and of asso-
ciation are my concern and beyond the scope of this committee. I
also feel that you do not have the authority to ask these questions
under the powers given to you by Congress. I also believe that the
question doesn't have any relationship to whatever powers you are
given by Congress.
And I would like to state here in a few words just a little why I
am prompted to make the answer that I am.
Mr. Tavenner. I do not understand it as an answer. I imderstand
it as a refusal to answer.
Mr. Malis. I refuse to answer on the grounds of my rights under
the first amendment.
The Chairman. All right. You refuse to answer that question.
Ask the next question.
Mr. Malis. You told me that I could give my statement as soon
as I answered the question, and you have just said that I have an-
swered the question.
The Chairman. You have not answered the question.
Mr. Malis. I just asked you just prior to answering, if I could
read my brief statement here, and you said I would be given a chance.
The Chairman. You are not explaining why you did not answer
the question. You just want to read a statement.
Mr. Malis. Yes.
The Chairman. Go ahead. Read the statement.
Mr. Malis. Y'^s. That is right.
Mr. Meyers. lie said go ahead.
Mr. Malis. I am here reluctantly in response to the subpena served
me. The publicity already given the subpena tends to cast a veil of
6dMTMtJNiSl^ mFrLTRATI'ON IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2077
suspicion over not onlj- me but my family, my relatives who cari'y
the same name, and possibly on other people I consider my friends.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. Let me interrupt. Is that suspicion
that you talk about unfounded ?
Mr, Malis. I believe it is.
Mr. ScHERER. Is it wrong ?
Mr. Malis. I believe the mere fact that I got a subpena which did
not say what I was accused of, it merely stated that I was
The Chairman. You are not accused of anything. This is a con-
gressional inquiry. No one is charged with anything at all. We are
seeking information.
Mr. Malis. Mr. Chairman, I feel that there has been a lot of pub-
licity already, that maybe it is beyond your control. But, neverthe-
less, the newspapers have carried articles and people that know me
from the labor union and my neighbors, the people I work with, are
alread)' starting to make impressions on me just from the fact that I
have a subpena.
Mr. Scherer. We will settle it quickly. You have been identified as
a member of the Communist Party. Do you deny that testimony be-
fore this committee is true? If you do, then perhaps we can wipe
away the suspicion you talk about.
JMr. Malis. I ask that I be able to finish the statement. That is all
I am asking, and I have that permission I believe from the chairman.
The Chairman. All right. Bead it.
Mr. Malis. The publicity already given the subpena tends to cast a
veil of suspicion not only over me, but family and relatives who carry
the same name, and possibly on people I consider my friends. I am
not accused of, nor have I committed, any crime. Yet I have felt
compelled to hire a lawyer to protect my legal rights.
I have always paid my debts and my taxes. My record of over
eiirhteen years of employment in U. S. Steel is free from any repri-
mand. I have served in the Navy, as I mentioned. I have strived to
be honest and decent to all people I have known, my friends, my
neighbors, my union brothers, and the men I work with on the job.
I feel that Chief Justice Warren in his Watkins report has made a
statement that puts the issue squarely, "Who can define the meaning
of 'un-American'?"
Mr. Warren also states in his decision on the Watkins case, and I
would just like to read one paragraph from this, and I am finished :
Abuses of the investigative process may imperceptibly lead to abridgment of
protected freedoms. The mere summoning of a witness and compelling him to
testify, against his will, about his beliefs, expressions, or associations is a measure
of governmental interference. And when those forced revelations concern mat-
ters that are unorthodox, unpopular, or even hateful to the general public, the
reaction in the life of the witness may be disastrous. This effect is even more
harsh when it is past beliefs, expressions, or associations that are disclosed and
judged by current standards rather than those contemporary with the matters
exposed. Nor does the witness alone suffer the consequences. Those who are
identified by witnesses and thereby placed in the same glare of publicity, are
equally subject to public stigma, scorn, and obloquy.
Beyond that, there is the more subtle and immeasurable effect upon those
who tend to adhere to the most orthodox and uncontroversial views and associa-
tions in order to avoid a similar fate at some future time. That this impact
is partly the result of nongovernmental activity by private persons cannot relieve
the investigators of their responsibility for initiating the reaction.
2078 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION EN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain that the witness has been directed
to answer this question.
The Chairman. He was directed to answer the question.
Mr. Malts. Would you repeat the question, please ? I think I have
an idea, but I am not absolutely clear.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I think you better read the question to him.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Malis. I repeat my other answer that I refue to answer that
question on the grounds that it is an invasion of my rights as guar-
anteed on the first amendment, freedom of association and freedom
of speech. I also feel that I do not believe that you have the authority
to ask that question under the powers given you by Congress, and I
don't believe the question has any relationship to whatever powers you
are given by Congress.
Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ?
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Malts. I have the same answer that I just finished stating.
Mr. Tax'enner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
at this time the Commimist Party is concentrating in an effort to
strengthen its organization among the em])loyees at your mill?
Mr. ]\Ialts. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I
have just finished stating.
Mr. Ta\'ennkr. Are you now raising the question of the pertinency
of that question to the subject of this inquiry ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
ISIr. Malis. Yes, I believe that was included in my reply.
Mr. Tamsnner. Yes. And you continue to raise that question ?
Mr. JMalts. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Tavenner. The subject of this inquiry relates to the activities
of the Communist Party in infiltration in labor within basic industry
and the techniques and tactics used by the Communist Party in that
respect. The question that I asked you about the activity of the
Communist Party at this time is pertinent to that question because
it is self-evident that the only way by which the committee can obtain
information relating to this subject is to ask yoiT and others as wit-
nesses what those activities are.
Now, I think that shows the pertinency, and I ask for a direction.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I still do not understand the meaning of pertinency, but
I decliiTe to answer the question for the same reasons given.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. The witness is excused.
Do you have one more witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand ? Do you solemnly
swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Malis. I do.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY 2079
TESTIMONY OF WALTER MALIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
IRVING MEYERS
Mr. Tavenner. You are Mr. Walter Malis ?
Mr. Malis. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are accompanied by the same
counsel who represented the former witness.
Mr. Meyers. My name is Irving Meyers, Chicago, 111.
And at this time I wish to protest the presence of two persons liere,
not members of the committee, who Congressman Walter identified
as employed by the Department of Justice.
Ml". Ta\^nner. When and where were you born, Mr. Malis?
Mr. Malis. I was born on June 27, 1911 in Springfield, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Malis. Address is 2155 Carolina Place.
Mr. Tavenner. In Gary ?
Mr. Malis. The mailing address is Crown Point, Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Gary or Lake County,
Ind.?
Mr. Malis. I have lived here 45 years.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you employed ?
Mr. Malis. At the U. S. Steel in Gary.
ISIr. Tavenner. At what plant?
Mr. Malis. Gary Works.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that known as the Big Mill ?
Mr. Malis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Malis. Twenty-one years.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Malis, the committee is undertaking to obtain
evidence relating to the techniques and tactics of the Communist
Party in its infiltration into the steel plants and also the extent,
character, and objects of Communist Party propaganda activities
within those plants. The committee is interested to know from you
just what activities the Communist Party is engaged in in your plant
now, that is, the plant where you work.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Are you asking me a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, that was a question.
Mr. Malis. I don't understand the question. Will you state it
again ?
Mr. Tavenner. I say the committee is interested to know and there-
fore I ask you the question : What type of Communist Party activi-
ties are being engaged in at this time in the plant where you work ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. At this time I will refuse to answer this question using
my right under the first amendment not to answer. My associations
are my own. Also, I don't feel that this committee has the right to
ask of me this question.
2080 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION IN BASIC INDUSTRY
Mr. Tavenner. Why do you feel the committee hasn't-
The Chairman. Just a minute. You are directed to answer the
question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. Well, I decline to answer on the basis of the Watkins
decision as explained to me by my attorne3\
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Malis. Also on the other ground, the first amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. After that statement, I would like again to ask that
the witness be directed to answer the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Malis. It is the same answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member, and an active member in the
Communist Party at this time ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Malis. I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer that
question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Malis. I decline for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 15 p. m., Tuesday, February 11, 1957, the com-
mittee recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
INDEX
Individuals
Pac«
Brandt, Joseph 1960
Browder, Earl 1962, 1964
Burgess, Tony 2009
Busic, Nicholas M 19S9-1996 (testimony), 2019
Carter, William 1987
Chancey (Martin) 1969
Chandler, Joseph 1965, 2019, 2020
Chandler, Mary (Mrs. Joseph Chandler) 2019, 2023
Crowley, Francis X. T 1987
Daronatsy, Arthur 2020
Dennis, Eugene 1972
Dubin, Samuel S 2048
Foley, John 2070
Foster, William Z 1963, 1972
Gates, John (William) 2018
Gavit, Albert H 1997
Green, Gilbert 2022
Gyurko, Joseph, Jr 2018, 2069-2075 (testimony)
Holstead, Lemar 2023
Hyndman, Katherine 2020, 2021, 2023, 2055, 2063, 2067, 2068
Johnson, Elmer 2022
Kates, Robert W 1997-2000 (testimony), 2016, 2055. 2063
Kling, Jack 1960, 1961
Kreth, Jack. {See Kretheotis, Jack.)
Kretheoti-s, Jack ("Zack") (alias Jack Kreth) .2005-2007 (testimony), 2015, 2016
LaFleur, Joseph E 1954, 2007-2025 (testimony), 2029,
2038, 2040. 2043. 2044, 2049. 2050, 2066
Lassers, William 3' 2027, 2043
Lautner, John 1953, 1954, 1958-1974 (testimony), 2019, 2029
Lawrence, Howard 2011, 2018
Lehrer, Robert 1954, 2021, 2027-2039 (testimony), 2044, 2055, 2063
Lenin, Nikolai 1968
Lightfoot (Claude) 2023
Mac-Kay, James (E.) 2023
Madden (Ray) 19.57
Mails, Albert ("Keg") 2019. 2020, 2039-2042 ( testimony )
Malls, Anne (Mrs. Victor Mails) 2020
Malls, ghris ("Cash") 2009,
2019, 2020, 2063-2064 (testimony), 2075-2078 (testimony)
Mails, Victor M. (Vic) 2019,2020,2024,2056-2063 ( testimony ). 2066, 2073
Malis, Walter ("Sy") 2019,2020 2064 (testimony), 2079-2080 (testimony)
Malls, Willard ("SuUy") 19.54, 2019, 2020. 2065-2069 (testimony)
Meskimen, Lawrence 2019
Meyers, Irving 2000, 2050, 2056, 2062-2064, 2069, 2071, 2075, 2079
Migas, Nick 1972. 2018, 2019
Murray, Philip 1964, 1972
Nelson, Steve 2022
Norrick, Joseph W 2017,2018,2050-2056 (testimony)
O'Bara, Frank ; 2070
Onda (Andrew Rudolph) 2023
Patterson, William 2022
Peters, J 1953, 1967, 1969
Powers, George 1965, 1966
U INDEX
Page
Quill, Michael (J.) 1964
Rabinowitz, Victor 1974, 1989
Rajk, Laszlo 1961
Rakosi (Matthias) 1961, 1971
Rebraca, Lazo (Louie; "Owl") 1954,2022,2048-2050 (testimony)
Samter, Alfred 200(^2005 (testimouy), 2012, 2013, 2055, 2063
Sandy, George 2022
Sargent, John 2018, 2043-2048 (testimony)
Shaffer, Edward 1987
Shipley (Ruth B.) 1960
Stanton, David P 2005, 2006
Strangel, Ethel 2023
Taxel, Pat 2023
Tito (Josip Broz) : 1961
Vogeler (Robert) 1960
Waitkus, Justin 2039, 2054, 2065
Wallace, Henry 2014, 2049
Wellman. Saul I960
West, Jim 2021
Williamson, John 1964
Winston, Henry 1967, 1972
Yellin, Edward 1954, 1974-1988 (testimony), 2017, 2055, 2063
Young, William (Marcus) 2017
Oeganizations
Aaron Plumbing Supply Co 2038
American Federation of Labor 1963
American Radio Institute 2002
American Veterans Committee 1987
Carnegie Illinois Steel Corporation 1954, 1982, 1983, 1986, 2032, 2033, 2036
City College of the City of New York 1954, 1978, 1979, 1985, 2017
Civil Rights Congress 2022-2024
Committee for Industrial Organization 1963
Communist Party, USA 1962-1972
National Structure:
Central Committee 1970
District 2 (New York State) 1969
Eastern Seaboard Conference (1947) 1965
Fourteenth Convention, August 2-6, 1948 1972
Hungarian National Bureau 1972
National Committee 1958
National Review Commission 1953, 1958, 1959
National Secretariat 1959
Nationality Groups Commission 1953, 1958, 1972
Sixteenth National Convention 1973
States:
District of Columbia 1969
Indiana :
Calumet region, (Gary, Indiana Harbor, Hammond, Whiting,
South Chicago) 1965, 1966
Gary 1954
Community Section (City Section) 2010,2011,2013
County committee 2015
County Section (Steel Section) 2000,
2007, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2038
Sustaining Fund Committee 2010
Michigan :
Ann Arbor :
Ralph Neafus Club, University of Michigan 1987
New York State 1961
New York City 1953,1958
Review Commission 1953, 1959
Pennsylvania :
Pittsburgh District:
New Kensington Section 1965
West Virginia 1953, 1958
INDEX 111
Page
Congress of Industrial Oi-gauizatious 1963-1965, 1969, 2to0
Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America, UnitPd 1964
Fur and Leather Workers' Union of the United States and Canada, Inter-
national 1964
Gary Cooperative Restaurant 2024, 2060
Inland Steel Products Co 2011, 2043, 2072
International Workers Order (IWO) 2024,2065,2066
Karageorge (nationality group) 1993
L. D. S. (Lithuanian organization) 2065
League of Women Voters 2023
Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, International (West Coast) _ 1964
Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers, International Union of 1964
Modern Distributors, Michigan 1985
Pennsylvania Railroad 2038
Profintern. {See Red International of Labor Unions.)
Public Workers of America, United 1964
Red International of Labor Unions (Profintern) 1963
Reo Motor Co 1985
Rutgers University 1954, 2030, 2031. 2035, 2037, 2038
Steel Workers Organizing Committee 1965
Trade Union Unity League 1963
Transport Workers Union of America, CIO 1964
United States Government, National Labor Relations Board 1970
United States Steel Corp 1954, 1990, 2077
Gary Works 1995, 2049, 2065, 2075
"Big Mill" 1997-1999, 2002, 2011, 2079
Sheet and Tin Mill 2008, 2009, 2011-2013
University of Colorado ^ 1969, 1986
University of Indiana 1997
University of Michigan 1954, 1979-1981, 1985, 1987, 2017
Young Communist League (Gary, Ind.) 2008,2009.2043,2045-2047
Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co 2051
Publications
Daily Worker 1969
Hungarian Daily Journal 1972
"Left Wing" Commvmism : An Infantile Disorder 1968
o
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