That's true. I guess I should have said that you would be better off to make it a required update, not an at-will DLC (free or otherwise) - that way everyone's on the same page with setup options and such.

I think we should look at the bright side...at least FM5 is on the X1...GT6 is, as of now, only on the PS3, and if architecture between the consoles is that different who knows when GT6 (or for that matter GT7) will be on the PS4.

I have an idea about why we haven't heard more Forza Motorsport 5 details but to better understand today we have to take a look back.

In the summer of 2011 somebody leaked photos of Indy and Infineon Raceway renderings before Turn 10 made an announcement the tracks would be included. People also broke down one of Turn 10's introductory videos frame by frame and showed everyone the included automotive logos. At normal speed many of the logos were indistinguishable as some were literally only on screen for a few frames.

Turn 10 Studios is keeping the lid on a lot of "cool stuff" until later this summer.

Simcik wrote:"You've got to buy the game so you can find out what's in it."

Thats short sided. Think about it from a marketing standpoint. If you role out all the details early as in by now for FM5 then everyone will be excited now and it will fall off alot before the game even launches. That will hurt sales which then will hurt the next games budget if there even is one depending on the overall sales of FM5. Instead you use the strategy of holding the cards close until a couple months out and slowly start releasing the information like cars, tracks, features, ect... This will catch all the enthusiasm right at launch and maximize sales. The more sales means the more can be allocated for the next FM budget. Trying to say they are greedy or trying to screw the players is absurd. Its economics.

Simcik wrote:"You've got to buy the game so you can find out what's in it."

Thats short sided. Think about it from a marketing standpoint. If you role out all the details early as in by now for FM5 then everyone will be excited now and it will fall off alot before the game even launches. That will hurt sales which then will hurt the next games budget if there even is one depending on the overall sales of FM5. Instead you use the strategy of holding the cards close until a couple months out and slowly start releasing the information like cars, tracks, features, ect... This will catch all the enthusiasm right at launch and maximize sales. The more sales means the more can be allocated for the next FM budget. Trying to say they are greedy or trying to screw the players is absurd. Its economics.

Never seems to fail 2k when they announce a the next GTA... just sayin lol

anyways, this is pretty much right on. IN addition to waning hype, competitors will get a chance to react and spin hyupe for their product which contributes to the loss of sales. Its always been about strategy to make the most, its the same reason movies avoid each other (usually).

So, are we still questioning the authenticity of the previously posted interview with Dan?

I understand what he is saying, but I feel that he is overlooking the trickle-down effect of enhanced simulation elements.

More simulation means more drivers. More drivers mean more need to tuners and painters. More simulation also means more tuning, which means more tuners. More simulation also means more and better racing, and more need for documentation, which means more photographers. And on and on and on it goes.

Where does it all start? With simulation!

In the real-world, the industry of motorsport started not with painters and photographers and tuners, but with racers. Why does Turn 10 seem intent on ignoring this?

Quiet honestly, if I had more to tune (like on a real car), and more races to run, I'd have much less time for painting. Furthermore, I could help those who are already better drivers than I am get more out of their cars using my knowledge. So, quite honestly, I see myself as an example of what Dan is talking about - but ONLY if simulation is the emphasis. If it is not, then I can race, tune, and paint all by myself, and I don't encourage/reward/support anyone else. If all you do it paint, for instance, and no one buys your paints/recognizes your work, will you continue to contribute? I doubt it... The racers usually don't need anyone else to enjoy and be good at the game, as none of it is too specialized. They'll likely keep buying the game, but be kinda unhappy with it. Because of this, they probably won't be too into building up the franchise or the system. They'll be in it for themselves and their own enjoyment. That's it. If the game was so intense that it required more specialized knowledge to be good at, those with the technical knowledge would be sought after. This would mean less time for these people to do other non-specialized things - so they would now be reliant on others.

Like I said, I get what he's saying, but I think he's looking at the effects and treating them as causes...

Here's the thing that bugs me. Dan is clearly a very intelligent man that understands people and business very well. He's an automotive enthusiast and has a pretty good pulse of his buyers. He seems unbiased and aware of the various tastes of various people that buy his product. Having said all of this, most of the things that "sim racers" want out of Forza, they've wanted since the first Forza. Most of these things can and should be added. Look at the evolution of painting in the game. It gets better with every release. Is it silly to want the simulation side of their "Racing Sim" to also improve? It sounds like they're content to leave it alone. It's Forza MOTORSPORT! Not, Forza paint/showroom/photo booth/video editor/Quibids/autovista/economics 101. This game is almost a "perfect" product, almost. And like I said before, the imperfection affects the group that, I believe, keeps this title's heart beating years after release.

*edit Go to the 6:00 mark of the video Avanti posted. Listen to what he says about the "sim" crowd. It's borderline condescending. "They're not the majority..." So what, they don't matter? He acts as if adding the things they request would inhibit them from adding other things. It's called a pace car Dan! It's not that complicated. If you can program an A.I. racer you can program an A.I. pacer. To name just one of the sim shortcomings.

"I want to make a game that fits them like a glove....." Do you Dan? Then why ignore things that would "fit them like a glove?" The sim crowd is very vocal about what fits them like a glove, and they're still asking.

_________________Waitress: Hi, can I get you two a drink?Starsky: You sure can sweetheart. Johnnie Red neat, ok? Do it. Do It.

I didn't see Tux as giving them any new ideas, I saw assessments of what Motorsport 4 has. Quibids and Economics 101 I took to mean the auction house and the storefront, respectively.

If this is Turn 10 Studios' direction that's fine because it's their call. I say it's fine and yet it's also über disappointing. Tux, you're right. Forza Motorsport is almost a perfect product. If only they'd include ten more percent of the last fifteen to twenty percent of what [simulation fans say] is missing content, it'd be incredible! Forza Motorsport is 80% full of really awesome stuff so it's a shame the 'brass' appear to be pleased to leave it at that.

We could say it this way too. It would be a lot less work for Turn 10 Studios to include simulation fans' desires than it would to have another developer like SimBin (Race Pro) or Electronic Arts (Sports Car GT) create a title containing many of the same ideas as Forza Motorsport while remaining focused on the simulation crowd.

Gran Turismo started the genre where players could buy some of their favorite cars (race and street legal), upgrade them, and race them. Forza Motorsport came and took some of Gran Turismo's magic by incorporating a similar idea while adding new features and bettering GT's existing ones.I think it's time a developer arrives and steals some thunder from them both. A third player in the genre should also make the other two step up their game.

I am considering writing an open letter to a handful of software development companies whom have already coded auto racing games and giving them suggestions. I know what simulation fans desire, I know what this crowd desires, and I am willing to express this vision to the appropriate people. If I posted the letter to a website where I could get digital signatures (the whole "we the undersigned" thing) … I wonder how many people would sign it?

Believe it or not, this was Electronic Arts (with help from a company they later closed, so maybe it's not hard to believe). What is hard to believe is how E.A. jumped off this track and got into the fast and ferocious scene with underglow and other automotive trash.

Heh. He discusses multiplayer. My brother and I would direct connect via a COM port and we'd cause chaos with the A.I. Fun times, often lasting many hours.

Watch the videos and you'll see features Forza Motorsport 4 doesn't have. Features like changing weight distribution, black flags (not shown), a pace lap, cautionary periods where the game tells you which car to stay behind, fuel loads, a tow ride (not shown / tow truck is invisible anyway), and independent suspension tuning. What's pathetic in respect to Forza Motorsport? NASCAR Racing was released in 1994 and Sports Car GT in 1999.

I hear the Papyrus guys are now on team iRacing. That's cool and I will get there some day; it would just be nice to have more simulation in a game with Motorsport in the title -mirroring Tux's sentiment.

OH GOD! That's perfect! The screen capture for the third video. What's that? What's at the top of the screen? OH SHIT! IT'S A YELLOW FLAG!

Avanti 63r1025 wrote:I didn't see Tux as giving them any new ideas, I saw assessments of what Motorsport 4 has. Quibids and Economics 101 I took to mean the auction house and the storefront, respectively.

If this is Turn 10 Studios' direction that's fine because it's their call. I say it's fine and yet it's also über disappointing. Tux, you're right. Forza Motorsport is almost a perfect product. If only they'd include ten more percent of the last fifteen to twenty percent of what [simulation fans say] is missing content, it'd be incredible! Forza Motorsport is 80% full of really awesome stuff so it's a shame the 'brass' appear to be pleased to leave it at that.

We could say it this way too. It would be a lot less work for Turn 10 Studios to include simulation fans' desires than it would to have another developer like SimBin (Race Pro) or Electronic Arts (Sports Car GT) create a title containing many of the same ideas as Forza Motorsport while remaining focused on the simulation crowd.

Gran Turismo started the genre where players could buy some of their favorite cars (race and street legal), upgrade them, and race them. Forza Motorsport came and took some of Gran Turismo's magic by incorporating a similar idea while adding new features and bettering GT's existing ones.I think it's time a developer arrives and steals some thunder from them both. A third player in the genre should also make the other two step up their game.

I am considering writing an open letter to a handful of software development companies whom have already coded auto racing games and giving them suggestions. I know what simulation fans desire, I know what this crowd desires, and I am willing to express this vision to the appropriate people. If I posted the letter to a website where I could get digital signatures (the whole "we the undersigned" thing) … I wonder how many people would sign it?

Competition only encourages progression. This is why I don't like it when people talk smack about Gran Turismo or forza when comparing the two together. Someone needs to come along and give Turn 10 a reason to innovate the sim portion again. It's like the madden scenario, without 2k sports around to spank EA they have no reason to actually improve the product since there is no competition.

So Ryan McCaffrey may not be very good at Forza but its nice to see the game in action at a track we have in FM4 to compare to. Leguna looks pretty damn good and I like the way the understeer attitude of the car comes off natural rather than just the front tires stop working. The dust looks freakin great too! Most of all I just love how much more natural the shadows look! Very immersive indeed.

Also I remember arguing with one of you guys about the fact FM5 is an ALL NEW engine and not a tweak on the ol jalopy. Well here is Dan the Man going on record saying so. Just so we all know now

Day One Car Pack – A three-car pack featuring special liveries and custom tuned cars. See below for details on the Day One Car Pack. (Day One pak will be included in all versions of FM5 at launch)

FORZA REWARDS SYSTEM

Here’s how Forza Rewards works: By playing Forza games, you earn points in Forza Rewards. The more points you earn, the higher your Tier level and, the higher your Tier level, the better rewards you can earn. Each month, you can redeem rewards in games like Forza Motorsport 4 and Forza Horizon, including cars, in-game credits, tokens, and more. (Im on the fence about this.... honestly I doubt it really will make any impact and just be ignored mostly)

FORZA MOTORSPORT 5 AT gamescom

They showed off the new Leguna Seca and Audi R18 Quattro with race wear showing on the livery plus announced SPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hells yea! Man this game is lookin good!

Haha I was thinking of posting the same vid! I think I like VVV for Forza input. The InsideSim guys are way to hell bent on having a wheel. You CAN feel the physics with a pad. They are lucky or spoiled with having the best wheels and seat setups but for the 99.9% of Forza racers that just isnt the case. VVV seems to be much more objective to his approach and thoughts. To me the news seems to be finally starting to trickle out and I cant wait to hear more!