Day after day people dig deep into their asses to pull out anything to bash Trudeau.

Meanwhile,Harper quietly cruises to victory.

If we're going to talk racism and misogyny,then we must talk about Harper's Conservatives.

That is interesting because reading Desmond tweeter feed several people have asked him about the new CPC commercials. They don't feature a single visible minority in them (these are the BRAND new ones). Desmond has not responded in any way with the CPC commercials featuring NO visible minorities in those commercials. Yet he RT and answers other questions, and tweets out stuff. But is silent about these new commercials not commenting at all.

Day after day people dig deep into their asses to pull out anything to bash Trudeau.

Meanwhile,Harper quietly cruises to victory.

If we're going to talk racism and misogyny,then we must talk about Harper's Conservatives.

That is interesting because reading Desmond tweeter feed several people have asked him about the new CPC commercials. They don't feature a single visible minority in them (these are the BRAND new ones). Desmond has not responded in any way with the CPC commercials featuring NO visible minorities in those commercials. Yet he RT and answers other questions, and tweets out stuff. But is silent about these new commercials not commenting at all.

That's my point. The CPC is not 'subtly' racist,they are overtly racist and unapologetic about it.

No Pondering, this is nothing to slough out. At best it shows your boy doens't think before he speaks, can't speak without using cliches and stereotypes, and is a light wieght. He is completely UNFIT to be PM. You're continued defense of him is appalling. Go tweet Desmond Cole what you wrote and let us know what Cole says back to you.

Alan, as to focus on Trudeau, what do you exect. Everyone knows its about getting Harper. So answer this, why are the Greens and Libs focused almost entirely on the NDP, including on this board. I am getting tired of this meme "that its about Harper". Bull, Alan!

Alan the broad majority of your posts emote the same platitude or ttack the NDP. I'm sick of it. You want to beat Harper, vote NDP, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW full well that ABC means vote Liberal. Who do you think you're kidding. Liberal-Tory, SAME old story, and YOU KNOW that too!

If Harper were to have said these things this site would be alive with accusations of racism and dog whistle politics. I am not sure if I want go as far as charging Trudeau with racism subtle or not on this thin gruel. But here's the thing this is a weird answer. So the misogyny in music and now absent fathers are factors in violence against women? What he is arguing that the absence of positive male role models increases the chance of boys growing up to be violent against women. But of course some of these absent fathers are absent because they are violent so his assumption is at best a generalization. It is true of course that positive role models would help but we may have had a shortage of these in the past as well. The other problem with his factors is that both these trends have become more prevalent in the last few decades. However, violence against women predates these trends. In the past violence against women of course was unreported. I am not sure I buy into Trudeaus factors at all.

At least someone out there is picking this up. If Harper said it, crap would hit the fan. Same with "old stock Canadian", a term used by Liberals like Stephane Dion and even Trudeau himself. Yet, Trudeau attacks Harper on it, being a total hypocrite, and hardly anything by the media on it. Priceless.

Pondering, if Mulcair had said what Le Daupin had said yesterday, you'd be all over it today. Admit it! What's the matter, afraid to admit it?

Absolutely not. As a whitish single mother myself I take offence to the notion that recognizing the challenges single mothers face is in any way racist and misogynistic lyrics are not limited to rap music. I very much appreciated Trudeau's reference to the harms of porn on developing teen sexuality. I'm not surprised you don't recognize these as feminist issues given the state of feminism in the progressive community.

I praised Trudeau for naming prostitution as violence against women and was disappointed he was as wishy washy on C -36 as Mulcair was.

I'll also say this, neither Trudeau nor Mulcair will overturn C-36 nor any part of it even though both voted against it.

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

Pondering, if Mulcair had said what Le Daupin had said yesterday, you'd be all over it today. Admit it! What's the matter, afraid to admit it?

Absolutely not. As a whitish single mother myself I take offence to the notion that recognizing the challenges single mothers face is in any way racist and misogynistic lyrics are not limited to rap music. I very much appreciated Trudeau's reference to the harms of porn on developing teen sexuality. I'm not surprised you don't recognize these as feminist issues given the state of feminism in the progressive community.

I praised Trudeau for naming prostitution as violence against women and was disappointed he was as wishy washy on C -36 as Mulcair was.

I'll also say this, neither Trudeau nor Mulcair will overturn C-36 nor any part of it even though both voted against it.

Pondering, here we go again. Once more you're deciding who is senstivie to feminist issues and who isn't. Where do you get off? I follow several Professional Street Workers and Dommes on Twitter and you couldn't be more tone deaf on the issue of "prostitiuion" if you tried. As to the issue of what he said, he fell back on racist diatribes that are recognized for what they are. The fact he menitoned means that at least in part,he agrees with them. He is old fasioned, out of touch, and tone deaf. There is nothing to defend. Trudeau stepped in it. Deny it all you want, I'll take my cues from Desmone Cole and Mark THompson over you, any day! Trudeau is an unthinking, boorish clown. He's a light wieght, he thinks before he speaks. Your unconditionall support of him looks good on you.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulmcleod/people-are-criticizing-justin-trudeau...
This is Trudeaus defence of his comments as well as Coles comments. Cole makes a good point. Why won't Trudeau name the particular type of music? Indeed. As I follow this argument I am getting even more uneasy with Trudeau's comments. Gee, I hope this doesn't mean I agree with Catchfire. I usually try to be on the opposite side of his arguments.

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on.

No one is infallible. I don't believe that Trudeau was referencing black women and rap music indirectly or otherwise. I look forward to seeing the transcript but I have yet to find one.

The better someone's reputation the more important it is that they remain unbiased and accurate in their accusations before they tar and feather someone.

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on.

No one is infallible. I don't believe that Trudeau was referencing black women and rap music indirectly or otherwise. I look forward to seeing the transcript but I have yet to find one.

The better someone's reputation the more important it is that they remain unbiased and accurate in their accusations before they tar and feather someone.

Accusing Desmond Cole of "reaching for straws" strikes me as incredibly offensive. This dude has better things to do than "reach for straws" and, as one of Canada's best critics of race and culture, he doesn't have to work to hard to find it.

His criticism is measured, contextualized and spot on.

No one is infallible. I don't believe that Trudeau was referencing black women and rap music indirectly or otherwise. I look forward to seeing the transcript but I have yet to find one.

The better someone's reputation the more important it is that they remain unbiased and accurate in their accusations before they tar and feather someone.

Pondering, your arrogance is breath taking.

I have spoken to this in another thread; this is why Rabble's Babble area has become so useless. You can't "discuss" anything with people whose only reason for being here seems to be to be an apologist and propagandist for Trudeau and the LPC.

Alan the broad majority of your posts emote the same platitude or ttack the NDP. I'm sick of it. You want to beat Harper, vote NDP, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW full well that ABC means vote Liberal. Who do you think you're kidding. Liberal-Tory, SAME old story, and YOU KNOW that too!

ABC wouldn't necessarily mean "vote Liberal" this time around. There are a lot of ridings where there are NDP-Conservative fights and a vote for the NDP is the right ABC vote: in most of BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan, only a handful in Ontario admittedly but a fair few in Quebec.

By my count, using 308, there are 26 ridings in which there is a head-on NDP-CON battle (i.e., within 10%), with the Liberals not really in the game (i.e., at least 20% back of the leader).

Cariboo-Prince George

Coquitlam-Port Coquitlam

Coutenay-Alberni

Kamloops-Thompson-Cariboo

Kootenay-Columbia

Mission-Matsqui-Fraser Canyon

North Okanaga-Shuswap

Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge

South Okanaga-West Kootenay

Edmonton Manning

Edmonton Mill Woods

Lethbridge

Denesthe-Missinippi-Churchill River

Regina-Lewvan

Regina Qu'Appelle

Saskatoon-Grasswood

Elmwood-Transcona

Essex

Oshawa

Sarnia-Lambton

Jonquiere

Levis-Lotbiniere

Louis-St-Laurent

Montmagny-L'Islet-Kamouraska-Riviere-du-Loup

Richmond-Arthabaska

Fundy-Royal

By contrast, there are 30 ridings which are LIB-CON fights (i.e., within 10%), with the NDP not really in the game, (i.e., at least 20% back of the leader).

Delta

Richmond Centre

South Surrey-White Rock

Steveston-Richmond East

Calgary Centre

Calgary Confederation

Calgary Skyview

Ajax

Aurora-Oak Ridges-Richmond Hill

Brampton North

Brampton South

Eglinton-Lawrence

Etobicoke-Lakeshore

Glengarry-Prescott-Russell

Haldimand-Norfolk

Kanata-Carleton

King-Vaughan

Markham-Stouffville

Markham-Unionville

Mississauga-Erin Mills

Mississauga-Streetsville

Nepean

Oakville

Oakville North-Burlington

Ottawa West-Nepean

Pickering-Uxbridge

Vaughan-Woodbridge

York Centre

Mirimachi-Grand Lake

Cumberland-Colchester

So, with current polls, there would be an edge to the Liberals but if those polls move slightly in the right direction, the numbers could be in rough balance.

Alan the broad majority of your posts emote the same platitude or ttack the NDP. I'm sick of it. You want to beat Harper, vote NDP, and you KNOW it. YOU KNOW full well that ABC means vote Liberal. Who do you think you're kidding. Liberal-Tory, SAME old story, and YOU KNOW that too!

I don't think so. But I do admit that if it's a race between the Cons and Libs,I'd recommend voting Liberal. I do support strategic voting. Whoever is best positioned to defeat the Conservatives. Even if it means voting Green or Bloc.

I live in an NDP riding where the Conservatives have no chance in hell. I wish I could say that for all ridings but we both no that it's not true nor is it possible.

This election has me in a weird predicament. I want the NDP to do very well but on the other side of the coin I want the same for the Liberals.

It's simple logic. If both those parties do well,it's BYe-Bye Harper and it's time to party like it's 1999.If they don't,4 more years of PM Mussolini.

Pondering, have you at least read Desmond Cole's actual statement? I know you haven't bothered to read or hear Trudeau's, but at least you are loyal.

In essence, Cole asks: Why did Trudeau, to a question on violence against women, reference two well-worn stereotypes of black people (1. rap music and 2. fatherless families) without specifically mentioning black people? A simple question, after which he goes out of his way to contextualize and mention that all parties are guilty of similar stereotyping (specifically mentioning Gilles Duceppe).

I hope you at least read that paragraph before jumping, again, to the defence of Trudeau. Before you say it, Trudeau's intent does not matter. What matters are the words he spoke.

Here is the correct response, Justin: My reference was inappropriate and racist and I unreservedly withdraw it. Violence against women is rooted in patriarchal power structures that touch our society at all points and in all cultures. I was wrong to suggest otherwise. The affected communities around Canada have my full apology.

Punch your bitch in her mouth just for talkin' shit / You lurkin' bitch? Well, I see that shit / Once again I gotta punch a bitch in her shit / I'm icy bitch, don't look at my wrist / Because if you do, I might blind you bitch.

Personally, I don't think this is a phenomenon associated with the Black community. Where I live you can hear hip-hop blasting out from car stereos being driven mainly by young white males. Note also that the middle lyric is Eminem, about as white as can be.

Desmond Cole expressed an opinion on Trudeau's comments. In his mind, the comments immediately triggered thoughts of the black community. In my mind they didn't. Which one of us was stereotyping?

Punch your bitch in her mouth just for talkin' shit / You lurkin' bitch? Well, I see that shit / Once again I gotta punch a bitch in her shit / I'm icy bitch, don't look at my wrist / Because if you do, I might blind you bitch.

Personally, I don't think this is a phenomenon associated with the Black community. Where I live you can hear hip-hop blasting out from car stereos being driven mainly by young white males. Note also that the middle lyric is Eminem, about as white as can be.

Desmond Cole expressed an opinion on Trudeau's comments. In his mind, the comments immediately triggered thoughts of the black community. In my mind they didn't. Which one of us was stereotyping?

Rev, your post is nonsense. Re read what Catchfire wrote and try it again. You Libs will say anything.

Racism is insidious. "Nice" guys do it all the time, without even thinking.

Did Justin Trudeau sit there and say "I think I'll make some winks to the racists"? No, I would doubt it very much.

Did he, without thinking too much, go straight to stereotypes that invoke fears of black violence, a form of subtle, unthinking racism? I think so, yes, perhaps he did. (Actually, the thought I had on the fathers leaving their children stereotype was the Canadian prairies stereotype against many First Nations men, but that's a form of racism that I'm more familiar with than racism against black people.)

More important, someone like Desmond Cole who has spent a lot of time thinking very hard about these things heard a form of subtle racism in 2 of 3 things Trudeau mentioned, and one that Duceppe mentioned. As he says, Cole didn't comment to attack the Liberal party or campaign - he said subtle racism is there in all parties.

As with many suggestions that a subtle, insidious, unthinking form of racism is there, I think a useful response is to stop, think before talking, reflect a bit more and from an awareness of one’s own privilege, and then respond if you wish - and in ways that respect Cole (or whoever raised it) rather than by accusing Cole, subtly or not, of stereotyping and being mean.

The racism 101 threads are, as always, worth a read.

God I’ll be glad when this insanely long election is over and pointing out unthinking racist assumptions is understood as part of an ongoing conversation about race and racism, not as part of a coast to coast partisan mudwrestling match.

the lack of father figure in certain communities..due to certain communities being more violent? come on. its unacceptable of course...pretty elitist for a priv8ileged white guy born with a silver spoon to talk downt o "certain community"

The one thing that is ABSOLUTELY TRUE is that had Mulcair said this, we'd never have heard the end of it from all the Libs on this board and they KNOW IT! Listening to them cry the blues about this is like watching crocs cry! Ridiculous!

Rev, your post is nonsense. Re read what Catchfire wrote and try it again. You Libs will say anything.

You are really too offensive to carry on a mature conversation these days, Arthur. Take a rest, get a life. And stop this fucking bullshit of accusing people of being "Libs". It is way way beneath you.

Rev, your post is nonsense. Re read what Catchfire wrote and try it again. You Libs will say anything.

You are really too offensive to carry on a mature conversation these days, Arthur. Take a rest, get a life. And stop this fucking bullshit of accusing people of being "Libs". It is way way beneath you.

Now it is painfully obvious that you have been given carte blanche by the moderators to engage in personal attacks. You might want to consider this before launching one of your patronizing missives. He didn't accuse them of being Libs in the example you provided. He accused them of saying anything. If you are going to set yourself up as some moral authority you might want to try and get the fucking facts right.

Pondering, have you at least read Desmond Cole's actual statement? I know you haven't bothered to read or hear Trudeau's, but at least you are loyal.

I listened to the first 28 minutes so I heard the comment first hand before hearing about Cole's comment. Ever since I have been looking for a full transcript because I didn't think Cole got it right. I was right, he didn't.

Catchfire wrote:

In essence, Cole asks: Why did Trudeau, to a question on violence against women, reference two well-worn stereotypes of black people (1. rap music and 2. fatherless families) without specifically mentioning black people? A simple question, after which he goes out of his way to contextualize and mention that all parties are guilty of similar stereotyping (specifically mentioning Gilles Duceppe).

The answer is, he didn't. The question was not about violence against women.

This was the question:

Pelletier: I was going to say, you’d like to think that this is the problem of an older generation of men who haven’t quite accepted that women have their equal place in the workplace and everywhere else in society, but actually, a lot of the abuse that we are seeing now, the abuse when women journalists do stand-up, the obscenities that are yelled at them, the anonymous blogger at the University of Toronto the other day, these are young men… they’re not old men, they’re young men. How do you explain that?

She is specifically speaking about young men and particularly referenced the "Fuck her right in the pussy" (FHRITP) phenomenon. So we are not discussing misogyny in general but specifically the misogyny of young men, and if anything white young men as FHRITP is a white thing isn't it? I haven't seen a lot of it but what I have seen has been young white males.

This was Trudeau's response:

Trudeau: I don’t know where exactly to point my finger. I think there’s probably an awful lot of factors that come together to shape societal behaviours, whether it’s certain types of music. There is a lot of misogyny in certain types of music. There are issues around pornography and its prevalence now and its accessibility, which I am really wrapping my head around now as a father of kids who are approaching their teen years and there is also the shifting parental roles as well. There’s a lot of communities in which fathers are less present than they have been or might have been in the past and there’s a need for engaged positive role models.

The last controversy on misogyny in music was Alan Thicke's Blurred Lines and our most famous rapper by far is Drake whose lyrics are not violent. Country music and pop music are also sometimes mysogynistic.

Speaking of his own role in guiding his children, a girl as well as a boy, who may soon be exposed to porn, he recognizes the challenge in wrapping his head around dealing with this issue. That very naturally led to him referring to children whose fathers are less present and the need for role models.

Catchfire wrote:

I hope you at least read that paragraph before jumping, again, to the defence of Trudeau. Before you say it, Trudeau's intent does not matter. What matters are the words he spoke.

Ironically it is Cole who made factual errors and you who jump to his defence without knowing the details. Intent may not matter when something is clearly racist but misogyny in music is not limited to rap, or black people. He then switched to talking about porn which is very white then to fathers who are less present after discussing his own fatherhood. FHRITP was in the question. "Certain music" is not code for black music it just means not all music is misogynistic, just certain music.

Catchfire wrote:

Here is the correct response, Justin: My reference was inappropriate and racist and I unreservedly withdraw it. Violence against women is rooted in patriarchal power structures that touch our society at all points and in all cultures. I was wrong to suggest otherwise. The affected communities around Canada have my full apology.

He wasn't talking about violence and he most definitely didn't suggest black music or black families are responsible for the misogyny of FHRITP.

I take it you are inferring that the details of what he was talking about don't matter, only that "certain music" and "fatherless children" can still be construed as "rap music" and "black families". I would accept criticism that it was an unfortunate choice of words because some people could interpret it that way. I just don't accept the accusation that in this case it was racism subtle or otherwise.

I do think it matters that the topic was young men and misogyny not violence against women. I think it matters that he discussed porn in between. I also think when we are discussing something this subtle and open to other innocent interpretations that intend does matter. Racism is a very serious charge. I can't think of anything worse that isn't illegal.