The way they kept hitting on the "Raising the Bar" phrase, I really and truly thought we'd get to see what it was James Cameron was going to raise. I thought since we saw Randy Newman down there, too that we'd get to at least see a clip of him finding what was on the bottom of the Marianas Trench. I turned to my wife halfway in and said "Oh. It's Roseanne." I think they needed to show us SOMETHING that he brought up (unless I missed that completely and they did). I felt like Roseanne could have worked because I remember the fervor over that show's dysfunction, but to be honest, there were shows like All in the Family and so forth before Roseanne. I guess not showing us was to be part of the metaphor, but to me, it would have been like not getting to see Cartman expel fake treasure in "Manbearpig" or no aliens at the end of the premiere episode. I felt like there was something small missing, even though just hearing Honey Boo Boo was part of this episode was enough to make it worthy of watching. Seeing them call out shows like that and the Kardashians and skewering current pop culture is what makes the show so awesome. It wasn't an "evergreen" episode, but neither was last week's. I'm still looking forward to the rest of the season. No matter WHAT they put out, it's better than the rest of the crap on TV. I hope next week we get a Sesame Street/Big Bird riff where Romney is trying to kill the muppets and Obama is trying to save them, only it turns out the muppets are a threat to Earth or something.

glad to discuss underlying themes in episodes like these... Glad to be friends. We can be friends-- why temporary??

Temporary because I hardly ever post on forums, and I figured our convo would be a one-night thing. (Why do I feel dirty all of a sudden?)

I watched the rest of that episode.

I hate the Obamas' war on obese people and their so-called stance against bullying. That scene with Michelle Obama beating up Cartman is perfect.

I wish South Park had chosen to be clear, rather than vague, about what "raising the bar" refers to. Do they mean that fat people appearing in beauty pageants is what makes our television programming fall so far under the bar, or do they mean that fat people--and people, in general--acting like uneducated hillbillies on TV is what makes our programming fall so short of perfect? I think that if the latter were true, South Park would have aired this episode in the 90s, when Jerry Springer was popular.

If the moral of "Raising the Bar" is that fat people shouldn't be proud of their bodies, then can someone who's reading this and knows Parker and Stone please tell them this for me:

Most people cannot lose weight and keep it off. Cannot. As in, are not capable of. There is nothing in our evolutionary makeup that has prepared us for living in our calorie-rich culture; as far as dieting goes, there is nothing in most people's genes that interprets a restricted intake of food as a good thing. Our bodies go, "What? Fewer calories? I'd better slow my metabolism down to nil and amp up my appetite so that my brain thinks of nothing but the fattiest, greasiest foods until it finally causes me to give in and pig out on everything in sight, thereby ensuring I don't starve to death." Yeah, there are a few genetic freaks who can lose weight and keep it off, but for the vast majority of us, we're going to lose 15 pounds and gain back 30 every time we diet.

Please consider that the problem of obesity, insofar as the problem exists at the level of the individual person and the individual's choices, is not that fat people aren't ashamed enough of their bodies and aren't trying hard enough to diet; please consider that the problem is that they're too ashamed of their bodies and are dieting too much.

The Obamas have taken an anti-bullying and childhood obesity stance, because it's a popular position to have, and the're politicians, but they do little about those things besides tell children to be nicer because they're politicians, and action is against the nature of politics. Only a great ninnyhammer would believe that they are sincere.

I hate the Obamas' war on obese people and their so-called stance against bullying. That scene with Michelle Obama beating up Cartman is perfect.

I wish South Park had chosen to be clear, rather than vague, about what "raising the bar" refers to. Do they mean that fat people appearing in beauty pageants is what makes our television programming fall so far under the bar, or do they mean that fat people--and people, in general--acting like uneducated hillbillies on TV is what makes our programming fall so short of perfect? I think that if the latter were true, South Park would have aired this episode in the 90s, when Jerry Springer was popular.

If the moral of "Raising the Bar" is that fat people shouldn't be proud of their bodies, then can someone who's reading this and knows Parker and Stone please tell them this for me:

Most people cannot lose weight and keep it off. Cannot. As in, are not capable of. There is nothing in our evolutionary makeup that has prepared us for living in our calorie-rich culture; as far as dieting goes, there is nothing in most people's genes that interprets a restricted intake of food as a good thing. Our bodies go, "What? Fewer calories? I'd better slow my metabolism down to nil and amp up my appetite so that my brain thinks of nothing but the fattiest, greasiest foods until it finally causes me to give in and pig out on everything in sight, thereby ensuring I don't starve to death." Yeah, there are a few genetic freaks who can lose weight and keep it off, but for the vast majority of us, we're going to lose 15 pounds and gain back 30 every time we diet.

Please consider that the problem of obesity, insofar as the problem exists at the level of the individual person and the individual's choices, is not that fat people aren't ashamed enough of their bodies and aren't trying hard enough to diet; please consider that the problem is that they're too ashamed of their bodies and are dieting too much.

No, sorry but the vast majority of Westerners with obesity problems (ie their glands still work) is because they make crap for choices in terms of what they put in their bodies. Constant consumption of convenience foods that has been processed to the point that it resembles a chem lab rather than something that once grew.

You see entire shopping carts in stores filled to the brink with garbage like this. You will see few fresh fruits and vegetables in a cart and a near equal ratio of junk food to remotely healthy options. It's not uncommon now to meet young people who detest all vegetables and will seldom touch any of them. I don't think many Americans really know what a balanced meal looks like.

Dieting is not something you do to lose weight but is a matter of how you live your life. You can't lose 20 pounds and revert back to eating as you did and not expect the weight to come back. There is a middle ground between anorexia and accepting morbid obesity as an inevitability. Trust me, I know as my hubby grew up on the meat and potatoes diet and has gradually lost weight over the years because his diet has transitioned to what I cook. If you consistently eat a wide range of nutritious food and get at least a bit of exercise things it makes an impact. He's still a big guy, but is making some changes toward living healthier. It just takes time and some effort.

You have the exact nihilistic attitude on weight that was being made fun of on the show. The idea that it's a lost cause so might as well just give up rather than do anything that might reverse the problem. Most of the people you see carting themselves around supermarkets are the ones who just gave up on helping themselves.

No, sorry but the vast majority of Westerners with obesity problems (ie their glands still work) is because they make crap for choices in terms of what they put in their bodies. Constant consumption of convenience foods that has been processed to the point that it resembles a chem lab rather than something that once grew.

Lyon82,

I'm not arguing against the idea that the reason people become fat is because they make bad choices. I'm arguing that once a person becomes fat, for most people the fat isn't going to come off permanently. The more they try to lose the weight, the more weight they're going to eventually pack on. Dieting (as in restricitng calorie intake) causes most people to lose weight but gain it right back again--and more. It's not a matter of will power, though popular media will have you believe that. If you know anything about evolution, what I said above should make sense to you.

I'm not a nihilist for acknowledging that fat shaming people for the past half century hasn't worked to make our population smaller and suggesting that we take a different approach. I'm not saying let's all let ourselves go and eat whatever we want. I don't believe that at all. I believe we should eat healthy foods and exercise. But weight loss is a fantasy. Thin = healthy while fat = unhealthy is a fantasy. It is possible--and for many people it is reality--to be fat due to bad past choices, but to remain fat, despite adopting healthy practices, like eating fruits & veggies and exercising.

No, sorry but the vast majority of Westerners with obesity problems (ie their glands still work) is because they make crap for choices in terms of what they put in their bodies. Constant consumption of convenience foods that has been processed to the point that it resembles a chem lab rather than something that once grew.

Lyon82,

I'm not arguing against the idea that the reason people become fat is because they make bad choices. I'm arguing that once a person becomes fat, for most people the fat isn't going to come off permanently. The more they try to lose the weight, the more weight they're going to eventually pack on. Dieting (as in restricitng calorie intake) causes most people to lose weight but gain it right back again--and more. It's not a matter of will power, though popular media will have you believe that. If you know anything about evolution, what I said above should make sense to you.

I'm not a nihilist for acknowledging that fat shaming people for the past half century hasn't worked to make our population smaller and suggesting that we take a different approach. I'm not saying let's all let ourselves go and eat whatever we want. I don't believe that at all. I believe we should eat healthy foods and exercise. But weight loss is a fantasy. Thin = healthy while fat = unhealthy is a fantasy. It is possible--and for many people it is reality--to be fat due to bad past choices, but to remain fat, despite adopting healthy practices, like eating fruits & veggies and exercising.

Do you read books?

Uh, no sorry hon, but if most people who were big were changing their lives and still could not lose weight at all, you wouldn't see overweight people with loads of junk in their carts. Again, I'm the first to say that dieting is not the best way to lose weight but through lifestyle changes. And that takes time for the effects to be seen. But overweight people making those changes don't keep doing the same crap over and over. They still make the effort to walk through a store and try to incorporate whole grains and fresh produce in their diets. They realize that they need to stop eating junk food every day after every meal. Those aren't the people being ridiculed. The people carting themselves around Walmart because they care so little that they don't try are pretty pathetic.

Of course it seems you get hypersensitive people now who consider even calling obesity an epidemic shaming them. And you have this attitude now that we should all cater to obesity and give them special treatment because they won't change how they live. That's the kind of obesity that was being ridiculed through that particular episode. The people on scooters in the stores to purchase more junk food instead of the original intent of that service for elderly and injured folk (you know, crutches etc.) to be able to shop with greater convenience. The people who take up handicapped spots because they find walking more than 30 feet from their car to a waiting scooter in the big box store too troublesome. Or being treated as being irreparably handicapped despite the fact that the vast majority of them would be better off if they would just make some changes to their lifestyle. That's a far cry from someone who is just overweight. Is this something we should pretend is a good thing to avoid hurting people's feelings?

As far as reading..... what the hell does that have to do with anything? Let's just say that I have a nice collection at home with bindings that just aren't as firm as they were when first purchased.

I asked if you read books because, if you did, I wanted to recommend some, since this seems to be a topic you're interested in. I don't look down on people who don't read, but if it wasn't your thing, I wasn't going to bother.

It's always interesting to me when people base their arguments and opinions on statements like, "I notice all the junk that fat people buy, which accounts for why they're so fat." I notice all the junk food fat people buy too. When I'm making a conscious effort, I also notice all the fat people who aren't buying junk and all the thin people who are (and all the thin people who aren't). My point is, when you expect to see something, you'll see it. When you don't expect to see something, and it's mundane, you often won't see it or won't register it. The next few times you go to the store, note what *everyone* is buying. Maybe you already do that, and I'm assuming too much about you, but most people don't--I certainly don't, unless I'm going out of my way to.

I can see how what you're saying in your second paragraph fits in with the motor scooter part of the episode. What I'm referring to, when I talk about fat shaming, is the Honey Boo Boo part. I haven't seen any of that pagaentry show, but from what I can tell, it has a lot of people pissed off because it's presenting a fat girl in a potentially positive light. People are upset, it seems, because showing a fat girl in a beauty pageant implies that she's beautiful, which might give fat people the idea that their bodies are acceptable. That is fat shaming (do you disagree?), and South Park seems to be supporting that.

I agree with you that lifestyle change doesn't happen overnight. I think what we're disagreeing on is the results of that lifestyle change. I'm arguing that fat people can, and often do, remain fat despite making lifestyle changes. I'm also arguing that eating healthy foods and exercising will result in a heathier body--regardless of whether or not that body loses weight as a result of those lifestyle changes. What you're arguing (correct me if I'm wrong, please) is that weight loss is the inevitable outcome of eating healthy foods and exercising, and that, therefore, if a fat person claims to have been eating healthy foods and exercising regularly for the past several years, he or she is probably lying or unknowingly doing something wrong.

Neither of us is saying lifestyle change is easy and happens overnight, so yay we both agree on that.

Last edited by Djinna on Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:30 am, edited 13 times in total.

Health at Every Size, by Linda Bacon. The Obesity Myth, by Paul Campos. Rethinking Thin: The New Science of Weight Loss--And the Myths and Realities of Dieting, by Gina Kolata. The End of Overeating, by David Kessler, has some good information.

Health at Every Size has the least interesting title, but it's the most accessible.

Listen, I do notice more than just what obese people purchase in the supermarkets. My background is the social sciences and I try to observe as objectively as possible. That said, I've noticed a difference just in what composition you will see based on the isle of a store. That is a reality. The same people who purchase produce are seldom the people who linger about in the frozen food sections or the isle with the mac and cheese and rice meal in a box. There are definite exceptions, but for the vast majority of overweight people the choices are as simple as looking into their cart.

Are there differences in metabolim? Do some medications affect how weight is managed in the body? Sure. Not everyone is meant to be the same weight. I will confess to being a relatively slender woman in my 30s. I am married to a guy who is broad in build and will never be 'slender'. But just getting him to eat healthier has made a difference. My cooking is by and large all natural with no preservatives and heavily influenced by a Sicilian mother who made big meals with plenty of fresh ingredients. Never have I been deprived in terms of having a satisfying meal just because it was healthy. That's how I grew up and that is how I grew up thinking about food. That experience varies from family to family and again, there is nothing wrong with there being differences in terms of weight and metabolism. There's no excuse for the people who let themselves get in the 400+lb range and are so goddamn overweight that they cannot even walk. That is not normal and ties heavily into choices in lifestyle.

As far as your book suggestions: I trust all the academic journals concerning the issues of the American issue with food over self help books that attempt to rationalize poor choices. I read various studies and court cases for FUN and know if you look hard enough you can find any quack supporting your stance. However that does not mean it overrides a large body of studies by actual scientists. We don't see this level of obesity and certainly not this extreme obesity being parodied anywhere else. You don't see the portion sizes in restaurants abroad that you have here nor the same quantities of processed foods. Trust me, I've spent several years of my life studying or working in other nations to get a grasp of what they do differently.

Again, you're crusading and being offended over satire that happens to be making fun of the most extreme end of the obesity scale. If you cannot see the difference between someone being a bit overweight but otherwise healthy and the kinds of people who wander the biog box stores on their carts to minimize the effort of walking across a store, then there is no hope.

Those are well documented, well researched books that cite academic studies, maybe some of the ones you've read for fun.

I googled "honey boo boo" and checked out the images that come up. While her mother is very fat, the little girl doesn't seem extremely fat to me. Maybe all the angles she's shot from in those photos are slenderizing? If she's not extremely fat, as she appears not to be, then isn't calling her a pig the same thing as fat shaming everyone who's not extremely fat?

I googled "honey boo boo" and checked out the images that come up. While her mother is very fat, the little girl doesn't seem extremely fat to me. Maybe all the angles she's shot from in those photos are slenderizing? If she's not extremely fat, as she appears not to be, then isn't calling her a pig the same thing as fat shaming everyone who's not extremely fat?

pointAShe isn't as fat because she's a toddler. that's a guess. and yes, there is cinematography that does that (slenderize) but if the show is (IRL) focusing on her fat physique, then... that's how she is. not as fat at her mother

pointBreasons of pig heart transplant can include:

> one could assume that she has a pig heart due to her being what people say "A fat pig"

> or one could guess that there has been a heart transplant involving a pig's heart

> or maybe (not likely) its a one layer "she needs a sassy pig heart" reason

> Honey Boo Boo did have a heart attack? (IRL)

when one looks at South Park, people interpret the show differently, they notice messages and miss other messages. like any TV show, of course.