2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Friday, October 1, 2010

Mac Brunson: Need a Million Bucks, But FBC Jax People are "Gripped With Fear" and Not Supporting the Work of the Church

The people of FBC Jax have not been good Christians or church members this year, apparently. According to Mac they are not giving to support the ministries of the church, because they are "living in fear because they are not giving" during this recession and are not trusting God with their finances. Giving is down a whopping 14% below budget (over $2 million annualized) and they blew through the building fund for auditorium renovations and need $1 million dollars else they can't pay the contractor to finish the job.

Wow, how things have changed. Giving is weak, and they started construction without having the cash, or having a financing plan in place. I would be nervous if I were the general contractor!

Mac says:

"What do you do with a church when people in the church are so gripped by fear that they don't give to support the work of the church, and let me tell you something, the work of the church goes on. We continue to do the work of the church, and it is obvious that a lot of our people are living in fear because you're not giving."

I think Mac needs to come out of his ivory tower. While he and Whitmire are drawing HUGE compensation packages, many people in Jacksonville are suffering. He gives no credit to the fact that giving in his church is down because people are perhaps earning less during this time, people's taxes and fees and utility bills in Jacksonville have been rising, and uncertainty abounds in the job market. People might just be saving more, and paying more money to get themselves out of debt. Some might be giving elsewhere. Some might be helping friends and family who are hurting during this economic down-turn. But in Mac's world: you either fork over 10% or more to the church undesignated, or you are "gripped by fear" and not trusting God.

And Mac is not just upset over the general budget giving, he also not at all happy that he is short $1 million for the renovation of the main auditorium:

"We have on-going needs at First Baptist Church of Jacksonville that we feel like we've got to do some semblence of ministry in the midst of financially difficult days. But what am I to say to you? And what are we going to do in this auditorium. Next Sunday morning...the 30th of September we will have depleted all of our building fund money on the renovation that has about a million dollar's worth to go. We've got to finish this. We're under contract. We can't really legally get out of completing the work, we don't want to stop the work, but what do we do if God's people don't give? What am I to say to you in the midst of a financially difficult day about trusting God and giving to God?"

Amazing. Who sounds fearful? Who is "gripped with fear"? Why can't he just "trust God" that the money will be provided?

Mac is asking what are they going to do about the auditorium renovation costs. That is a good question, Mac. What will you do? Are you implementing any cost cutting measures at the church, as in reduction of salaries starting with the top two: yours and Whitmire's? And I don't see Brunson recommending people NOT go on his "Holy Land Trip with the Brunson Family" (prominently advertised on the church website) and instead donate an equivalent sum to the auditorium or to make up the budget shortfall.

And why did Mac obligate the church beyond their means? Why did he sign construction contracts without the cash on hand, or a plan to finance it? And why did the renovation include ripping out all the pews, replacing the carpet and wall coverings? Was that absolutely necessary given the church didn't have enough cash for the entire project? Later in the sermon he gives a financial tip that a person should never buy anything that they can't pay for at the end of the month. What hypocrisy. Why did they sign contracts for construction that they didn't have the money to pay for? Of course: this axiom doesn't apply when you're spending the money of OTHER people, since you can just go ask them for more of it.

So Mac goes on to preach on "sowing and reaping" out of Genesis 26. Mac makes the point that God has promised to take care of his people IF they are obedient.

"I mean you cannot mistake it unless you're just lame in the head, folks. God is saying 'If you will be obedient to me I will take care of the needs of your life.' Now listen to me: God doesn't promise that he will give you your wants, but that he meets the needs of his people. "

This sounds good, but in the context of Mac's sermon he is trying to convince his congregation that if you want to have God take care of your financial needs, you MUST be obedient in giving the tithe to your church. This is instilling fear into his people - most of them are not giving 10%, and thus Mac is telling them that they are exposed and God may not take care of them since they are not tithing. It is not true. Under the New Covenant, there is no prescribed percentage for a Christian that is a prerequisite for receiving God's protection and blessings.

Then Mac goes on to cover "sowing and reaping", and uses Isaac's example in Genesis 26:12-13:

"In economically difficult days, he (Isaac) took what he had, his seed was his commodity, it was his portfolio, it was his finances, and he sowed it in the ground, he planted it in the midst of famine, and the Bible says this: 'he reaped in the midst famine in the same year...ten thousand percent"...but the man of God did when he trusted God with his finances in the midst of an economic downturn. Now you explain it any better than me, YOU GET UP HERE AND EXPLAIN IT! That is exactly what the text says."

That is not what the text says. The text doesn't say Isaac sowed his "finances", or his "portfolio". The text does not say Isaac trusted God with his finances in an economic downturn. I know, because I read it, and it doesn't say that. Isaac sowed SEED, and the Lord blessed him agriculturally. Mac implies that this means Christians should "sow" their finances (and portfolios) in the church, and they will reap God's blessings. Give to the building renovations, and God will bless and protect. This is Benny Hinn and Robert Tilton territory for sure. "Money, COME!" says Robert Tilton.

Mac then brings ten people to the platform, gives them each $1 that represents $50, which in total represents $500 net income for a person. He then separates one person out of the 10 representing the tithe and then condescendling says:

"Now here's your tithe right there. That is what you're worried about. That's what all the concern is about, that's what all the fuss, all the chatter, all the upset, all the despair, all the heartache, all the brokenness, 'I'm leaving church cause they talk about that right there.'...'Can't possibly survive because of that over there'.... Just that one little tenth that God says 'You honor me with that'....Now I want you to listen to me...why do we not tithe? Number one, because we don't trust God. We don't trust that God can take what is left over and can meet our needs with it."

So Mac is trying to close the deal here, to let people know that their failure to tithe not only will cause them to not have God's protection and blessing, but he mocks the reasons why people might not give 10%. He says they are "fussing", and "chattering" about having to give what God requirs, etc...notice he says "that one little tenth". I've said it before, but 10% to a wealthy person who has plenty of margin is not the same as 10% to a person of modest means who has little margin.

I wonder if they will get the million dollars on October 3rd. One thing we know for sure, with both mega churches and the government: if you give it, it will never be enough. They have an insatiable appetite for YOUR money, and they'll likely need more in an "emergency" again next year.

And if they get it, the likelihood of wise expenditure cuts won't happen. No need to cut inflated senior pastor salaries if they can get people to fork over more money. They can get the million, it is there, it's just that they don't want to cut where they need to cut to get it. It is so much easier to ask the plebe in the pew.

And finally, listen to exerpts from the sermon below from earlier in September, where Mac preaches out of Ezra to show the church that the Jews "took up an offering" to rebuild the temple (with new pews and carpet and wall coverings I'm sure), and Mac reminds them arrogantly that they don't get free electricity from JEA, and he gives his reasons for the auditorium renovations ("My daddy says you can at least be CLEAN!!"). At the end, Mac complains about complainers, screams to tell people to STOP YOUR GRUMBLING AND START YOUR SHOUTING.

234 comments:

And this from the advertisement about their upcoming trip to the Holy Land: "Nothing in your Christian walk will have a greater impact on your life than a trip to the Holy Land." IS SHE SERIOUS!?!?! This is a woman who serves as a trustee of our sending agency!?!?!

I teach abroad for the org and have to wonder about how deeply she truly feels, weeps, mourns, sacrifices for the lost of the world if she can make statements like this?

I went to their blog site hoping I could address this to them directly, but found the note 'comments off' on most of their blog posts. So, I came back here to vent.

No surprise giving is down - from the day Brunson arrived in Jacksonville he began spending monies.

For example Dr. Vines office was sufficient, yet Brunson took space that could have been used for class rooms for the Seniors and built a luxury custom office for himself (wife & dogs). As I recall around $100,000 plus taken from the budget.

Brunson has put FBCJ in debt - the people seen it from the beginning and they've simply stopped giving because of his lavish lifestyles.

He left Dallas in debt and doing the same here in Jacksonville. BTW, our personal tithing envelopes that keep coming are always dumped in the trash - they need to purge those people who still get monthly statements even though they've not attended for 2 years plus. No phone calls, no one at our door to see if we're even alive but magically the tithing envelopes keep coming regularly. :>)

Thank the Lord that the City of Jacksonville is filled with a lot of wonderful churches that are led by humble pastors who focus on the people they shepherd. God Bless Them!

Excellent post.I agree with everthing you said and every point you made. I agree whole heartedly. I pray that the members of FBCJax wise up and give 1M less than usual, not 1M more. As a former member of FBCJax, I am glad and blessed that I am LONG gone from that place.

WD,I don;t know that I have agreed with you and anything you have blogged about on here. However, there is a first time for everything as I agree with you on two points.1. The 10% tithe is not found in the New Testament. You are absolutely right on this. The New Testament concept of giving is out of the abundance of one's heart and blessing. For some that will be less that 10% and for others that should be over 10%. 2. In my opinion, under the current economic conditions, I would be hard pressed, as a pastor, to preach on tithing. That seems unwise to tell people to give until hurts when at this moment they are giving until it hurts. Like I said, there is a first time for everything. i'll get back to disagreeing with you in your next blog. :)

Brunson is not shy about preaching on tithing, he scolds, shouts, and foot stomps to make his point as if we're school childern.

As another former member who left when the Search Committee hired him said " Mac needs money to support his addiction to money and power. He has really deceived himself. Too bad peoples eyes are blinded to his addiction"

I don't pastor a mega church. I past an "average" baptist church, and have for over 40 yrs. To me it is very disturbing when emphasis is more on money than it is on lost souls. Show me "mega" church that is not runlike a business. We don't have pastors we have ceo's. However those such as Brunson don't carry all the blame. If those in the pew did not want and would not support the the one who does not want to be a servant to God's people as Jesus taught us to do it would stop. We have become so en-anmored of Dr. So-in-so and like to brag about we know such a one, things could return to a true envangelism. Sermon over Bojac

About the "Holy Land Trip" - I have been critical for several years of how the Brunsons use the FBC Jax website to sell and advertise these trips that are not ministries of the church, but are a private enterprise of the Brunsons, arranged not through the church but their own travel agent in Dallas.

Have your Holy Land Trip - but I think it should NOT be pushed on the church's website. Right now it is the lead scroll item on their website, the first thing people see when visiting their site. And now that the church is in financial straits several million behind giving, and needing a million dollars for building renovations, it just is not wise leadership to at the same time seem to be enticing people to spend $4000 on a trip to the Holy Land, with an option to spend a few days in Rome.

“Nothing in your Christian walk will have a greater impact on your life than a trip to the Holy Land. Journey with us to Israel as we follow the steps of our Lord and see how the stories in the Bible come to life.”

Is that true? If so, perhaps we should all be scrounging and saving to go with "the Brunson Family" to the Holy Land if nothing else will have a greater impact on our lives. Should I give to the auditorium, or should I give to the Holy Land trip? This is a marketing ploy, pure and simple. Again, it demonstrates poor leadership to publish statements like this to encourage members from the website to take a trip like this.

No phone calls, no one at our door to see if we're even alive but magically the tithing envelopes keep coming regularly.

That's because they're more interested in your money than in you. **coughBellevuecough** This isn't unique to FBC Jax. Besides, why does a church need to waste money mailing out tithe envelopes to people who haven't attended in years or who don't give regularly (or at all) or who give electronically? Even the IRS isn't going to mail out tax forms anymore.

I remember when there were one-year-supply boxes of envelopes sitting on a table inside the church that you just picked up one Sunday at the beginning of each year. The envelopes in each box were uniquely numbered, and you filled in your name and identifying information on the front of the envelope if you wanted the year-end receipt for tax purposes. After the first week, you were in the system (pre computers) as giver #892 the rest of the year which helped speed up recordkeeping. Otherwise, you just stuck a check or cash inside the envelope, sealed it up, and either turned it in during SS, TU, or dropped it in the plate during church.

Anonymous 9:23,

How many posts has Watchdog done on tithing now? And this is the first time you've agreed with him?

Wow, twisting the text to send fear and shame into people. When will they learn they are following a charlatan?

Even if Mac announced he is cutting his own salary, I would need proof. If he will lie about what scripture teaches, he would lie about anything.

It makes you wonder about the state of Christendom when folks cannot see through this man. It is bad out there, real bad. People in our churches are so lost spiritually.

Give your money where it will actually glorify God. Help a single mom or a family where dad lost his job. Do it in the Name of Jesus, anonymously. Can you imagine the impact for the kingdom that would have?

Do not give it to idolatry as renovated offices and new building programs are. They are monuments to men.

"...arranged not through the church but their own travel agent in Dallas."

FYI: It appears they are using Educational Opportunities, which is the parent company of Purpose Tours and is based in Lakeland, Florida not Dallas.

http://www.eo.travelwithus.com/

Just want to make sure you are accurate. And you are correct that there is a real dilemma before the congregation: New carpet or the Holy Land? If I had to choose - and I don't! - I would choose the Holy Land every time, and twice on Sundays!!!!

"...arranged not through the church but their own travel agent in Dallas."

FYI: It appears they are using Educational Opportunities, which is the parent company of Purpose Tours and is based in Lakeland, Florida not Dallas.

http://www.eo.travelwithus.com/

Just want to make sure you are accurate. And you are correct that there is a real dilemma before the congregation: New carpet or the Holy Land? If I had to choose - and I don't! - I would choose the Holy Land every time, and twice on Sundays!!!!

On the trip, I was referring to "Purpose Travel", a small outfit owned by Bruce Peterson in Dallas, TX who is collecting the money and making the travel arrangements. Who he is contracting with for the trip and tours and such I have no idea.

I might be wrong, but I don't think "Purpose Travel" and Bruce Peterson have anything to do with EO Travel in Lakeland. Peterson has handled arrangments as the travel arrangements for the last 3 years as I recall.

But the carpet is "ratty", and the pews were a "mess". You people at FBC Jax are just slobs, plain and simple. As Mac's daddy says, "You can at least be CLEAN!". Apparently the carpet and the pews couldn't be cleaned, and needed to be replaced.

Dr. Dog- Once again, you've nailed it with a logical and thorough analysis. I can only hope that more members will read this and have their eyes opened. For the record, I believe spending good money on remodeling, during a severe recession showed extremely poor judgement, and revealed where Mac's heart really is. It's all about STUFF, FLUFF, and ENOUGH of this foolishness!

You condemn FBC so how about recommending other local churches to join.

October 1, 2010 12:33 PM

How about being a Body of Christ where you are? Why do you need a building with a paid professional? The early church did not have that. And it was never intended to be that way. But you might have to start studying on your own. And most do not want to do that. They would rather pay someone to do that for them and tell them what scripture says and means. they do not believe the Holy Spirit can teach them.

FBC Jax had cash for building, and it made sense to build the senior adult SS space in the mostly unused corners of the auditorium.

But the stage and choir loft make-over, and the pews, carpets, and wall paper deal just seems over the top especially when they now are asking for an emergency gift of $1 million! He owes his congregation an explanation as to WHY they are over-committed by $1 million. To stand and say "the carpet is ratty and the pews are a mess" just doesn't cut it. Do you know how many churches need new carpeting and whose pews are decades old? Like Mac's dad says, "you can at least be clean", and if you keep your carpet clean, and do the best to keep the pews tidy and clean, that is great.

As an example of "special offerings", let's talk about the HD cameras right before Vines left. He made no bones about it, the cameras needed to be replaced and it made sense he thought to go ahead and buy the HD cameras. He communicated this to the church over an extended period of time. No high pressure, no sermons from the OT about how the Israelites gave money to the renovation of their TV ministry. No, he communicated his vision, did it politely and consistently, and the money was raised. I gave money to that, not because I felt compelled, or that I was gaining God's protection, but because I believed the TV ministry was worth it, and I trusted the man himself. Vines did not say "Oh my gosh, we are in the middle of buying the cameras, and next week the cameras are here and we can't pay the bill. What will I do if God's people don't give?"

Vines showed statesmanship, and was a polite gentleman in asking people to share his vision. There were many who didn't want HD cameras, and they didn't give. Vines didn't guilt them at all. Get this: Vines actually let the Holy Spirit do the work, and let people guided by the Spirit decide what to give, not under compulsion. I've read that somewhere before, I think in that book called the "New Testament".

Being the sinner I am, if Vines was an arrogant cocky jerk telling me to give to his HD cameras, I in all liklihood would have found a better use of my money.

Actually the 10% tithe isn't mentioned in the New Testament because Jesus said that one of the requirements for being His disciple is to leave ALL and follow Him. Last time I checked Jesus owns it all, to debate the 10% tithe is a mute point.

Hmmm, judging from his suit, YES, he wants you to give. Actually, methinks Mac would look more at home in an ACE Hardware polo shirt than standing up there having the nerve to hammer his people over money that he spent without asking.

Actually the 10% tithe isn't mentioned in the New Testament because Jesus said that one of the requirements for being His disciple is to leave ALL and follow Him. Last time I checked Jesus owns it all, to debate the 10% tithe is a mute point.

October 1, 2010 1:21 PM___________________________________

Does that mean leave my wife and kids and job, too? Or just my money? What was Jesus really after? My finances or my heart? So logically he meant to leave my wife and kids right? And yes, he said to leave ALL. He did not say to give ALL to him or the local budget of the Jerusalem church.

And has Mac left ALL? By your weak attempt to apply the scripture, you prove the point. The tithe is not required. ALL is. But what is ALL and who gets to receive it? I don't see Mac giving ALL. Dut he sure wants me to give ALL to him, er I mean to God, so God, I mean, Mac can spend it. So the scripture must not mean ALL or Mac would do it right? As a matter of fact, I don't know of any Christian, ever, that gave ALL. So is our religion a scam?

Let's not go there in your feeble attempt to rationalize tithing. And stop wasting your time trying to convince us anyway. The overwhelming majority of your own church and sunday school class members aren't giving the tithe, according to statistics.

The man is so isolated he even has staff and the wife read the blog and then tell him what it says. Too bad. If he read it himself and he might learn something. Instead, he has people who are the most biased on earth telling him everything here is lies and that it is only about petty issues. This only hurts Mac more and does not allow him to "put on some clothes" like that emperor who had no clothes and those close to him and his adoring subjects were to afraid to point out the obvious.

By no means am I trying to convince you to tithe, that's simply between you and God. But I'm not sure when we stand before God that what Mac or anyone else has or has not done will be of any significance. The standard isn't Mac, a pastor, or anyone, it's Jesus, that's the standard. The principle is called Lordship or who's the Lord of our lives? And just for the record, Jesus said it like this Luke 14:25-27: If anyone comes to me and does not hate (love less) his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Oh, and by the way, Scripture also says that the church, regardless of who is pastor, is the bride of Christ and Christ is the head of the church. So, to slam and ridicule the church is really to do the same to Christ. But wait, somebody else you knew did that so it's okay for you. Finally, I know a lot of missionaries and others called into ministry who have walked away from their families, homes, etc. to follow the call of Christ so be careful with that judgement.

Does Mac preach that if you give and are faithful that your kids will all be graduates of respected universities and find good jobs outside of daddy to support themselves and their family? No? This teaching of his only applies to something as petty and meaningless as 10% of someone's money? Hmmmm.

Sure. IF you plant a seed, you will get a crop. Duh. Is giving money to Mac for renovations supposed to be the same as if I go outside and plant a seed? If I bury the money in the ground will a plant come up? More money? NO, of course not. But those folks who give him money believe this.

Oh, and by the way, Scripture also says that the church, regardless of who is pastor, is the bride of Christ and Christ is the head of the church.___________________________________

Agreed. However...First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Inc. is NOT "the church." It is not God. Giving to it is not the same as giving to God. Please try and understand this before I hear any more cliches about "Jesus owns it all." No he doesn't. I checked the property tax records and nothing is owned by Jesus. It seems men have taken possession of it all. Some even are taking cruises and hiring their wife and son with it. If Jesus owns it all, why isn't Mac asking Jesus for some of it to finish the renovations. Sick thinking, and scary. But lucrative. You keep paying for those renovations. I'll keep helping the poor, orphan, widow, et al. Woe to those who give to the rich!

Good post! When you bring up the Holy Land Trip with the Brunson Family in the midst of falling short $1 million for the renovations. It reminded me that during the years of raising and building the $15 million for the main aurditorium, Dr's. Lindsay and Vines decided to suspend the Pastor's Conference so that the money that was used to underwrite that conference and the other monies given by the members for the conference could be given to build the new auditorium. Never once did either man get up and berate the congregation for not trusting God and giving to the building program. They led by example! They decided what was of a higher priority and even though the PC was near and dear to both of their hearts they decided the needs of the church, to be better suited to reach Jacksonville, was to build that building not promote their conference. And the building was paid for on time and they didn't sweat out (to my knowledge) the paying for the construction!That is Godly, faith-filled LEADERSHIP!

Finally, I know a lot of missionaries and others called into ministry who have walked away from their families, homes, etc. to follow the call of Christ so be careful with that judgement.

October 1, 2010 3:07 PM___________________________________More cliches. Really, you know missionaries who have walked away from their families? Did they abandon their kids to serve? Did they get a divorce to serve? Is that God's will. Are those missionaries worse than infidels according to scripture?

And the missionaries I know didn't walk away from homes and jobs. They found housing, insurance, jobs, income, kids schools paid, retirement, etc for living abroad. No missionaries I have ever met are homeless or without their needs being met. Please get real.

Sing with me if you recognize these hymns: "Jesus paid it all, all to FBC JAX, Inc. I owe!" "Sin had left a crimson stain, FBC JAX, Inc. washed it white as snow."

"All to god's man, I surrender, all to him I freely give. I will e'er trust and love god's man, in his presence daily live. I surrender 10% undesignated...I surrender 10% undesignated. All to FBC Jax, Inc. I surrender, I surrender 10% undesignated.

"You condemn FBC so how about recommending other local churches to join.

October 1, 2010 12:33 PM

The First Baptist Church of Jacksonville had a full house with happy members attending and not a mess it has become. Brunson & his lap dogs are the ones who have ruined their own reputation and are the ones who decided they would change a church that wasn't broken and spent all the monies.

When missionaries leave America to serve overseas, yes, they leave their extended family and if age appropriate leave their children. They often leave good jobs with excellent salaries to a calling that pays far less monetarily. They leave homes and friends to follow God's call. I'm just going to guess that you're speaking about that which you have not experienced and know nothing about. When Jesus called the Zebedee fishing business to follow Him they left their boats full of fish, their families and followed Jesus. You might want to hear what Scripture has to say rather than defend what you want it to say. Also, that stuff about Mac doesn't do it is simply an excuse, Mac's not the standard, Jesus is the standard. You keep your eyes on Jesus, and I promise Jesus will take care of Mac (me, others and you) in HIS time. Don't look at the speck in your brother's eye when a beam is in your own. Wait, was that a cliche, no, simply scripture.

"You condemn FBC so how about recommending other local churches to join.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Because You Asked - May I Recommend This Church For A Starter . . . Florida Times Union Newspaper October 1st Public Invitation Advertisement:

"So if you are considering a new church experience and place of worship, we cordially invite you to visit us at The First Baptist Church West Jacksonville."Dr. Gene & Leanne Hodges

I saw this similar routine in FBC Dallas. On one occasion, he read an a letter criticizing the $48M Criswell center. He launched into a tirade against this person, for lack of vision and compassion for the lost. It was and still is an embarrasing moment in that pulpit.

Nepotism in the church? Even the secular world won't do that, unless of course, daddy is the boss of a privately held corporation. That's is an another embarassment from Mac-a-roni, just like the cruises and holy land trips that he can attend for free if you enlist enough folks to come along.

Yeah, I'm being a little sacrcastic. Not cool you say? Neither is Mac-the-knife.

Jeffress had his own brand of financial tactics that I documented on this blog earlier this year.

Some differences: Robert Jeffress smiles in the pulpit, seems like he loves his people, doesn't yell and flail his arms about his head. Seems like a nice guy. But the "just slice off a big 'ole chunck of your assets and give them to the buildig campaign" was over the top.

Missionaries, the ones doing actual work on the field within the SBC IMB, which is probably one of the better paying missionary organizations, have been paying their missionaries right at what the Federal Government considers the poverty level for at least the 20 years my extended family members have been with them. The "kid's school paid" is only in the cases where it's necessary, usually a distant boarding school because there are no schools in the area. The insurance is what almost any other insurance is: sometimes enough, sometimes not.

In all, they would have been better off financially to stay with the 6-digit salaries they had before they left. Are they starving and homeless? No, but that's not to say it's not a sacrifice. Please don't lump them in with preachers in mansions. It's not right when mansion-dwelling preachers do it to justify themselves or for you to do it to attack both.

If Mac Brunson is half as self-aggrandizing as it seems, he's really in for some serious difficulties at the hand of the God he's mocking.

Luke 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,30 saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

These were the first verses I thought of when I read your blog, WD. Mac Brunson hasn't counted the cost, won't count the cost, doesn't really care about the cost. All he wants is to keep from being mocked, and he wants his church members to keep him from it.

He's after money, for sure.If he's not a wolf, then he's a world-class sheep-fleecer.That congregation is being duped, but it sounds like 'reality' might be setting in and they are waking up to his greed.

They don't release salaries. I've heard from a reliable source that his total comp is close to $400k - including salary, deferred retirement payments, and the typical allowances given to a mega church pastor for housing, cars, etc. We didn't know what Lindsay and Vines made either, but Brunson is different in that he has made multiple statements about what he does NOT make. Very odd. He has told our local newspaper religion writer that he does NOT earn over $300k, not even close, and that he is one of the lowest paid mega church pastors. He has told his congregation that he does NOT make as much as they think he makes. An odd statement. Why not just say what his total compensation IS, if it is an issue, rather than vaguely saying it's less than you think? And of course, the relevant number is total comp, not "salary".

About preaching on money: Brunson is not the only one in the SBC that preaches hard to raise money, using the tithing doctrine, high pressure, and guilt tacticts. Gaines and Jeffress are two prominent ones that I have highlighted on this blog, each having their own style and methods.

The rub with me is the misuse of scripture to imply that a person must give 10%, or give to the building program to receive God's protection. That is what Mac preached out Genesis and the story of Issac, that God protected Isaac because of his obedience, and that we will enjoy God's protection IF, and only if, we obey and give the tithe. He charges the church with living full of fear because of reduced giving...he downplays the hardships that actually do exist for poor folks with little margin when they give to the church. I sense the fear is really on his part, evidenced by his angry and condenscending preaching to convince them to give more. If he doesn't get the $1 million this Sunday, maybe God is telling him that he shouldn't have ripped the pews out, who knows.

I don't know anything about Jeffress, but I have seen video of Gaines, and it is pitiful. Gaines was throwing a childish tantrum in the pulpit because some parents had brought a baby in with them and the baby started to cry.

This kind of 'pastor' must be the shame of the SBC for sure.

no wonder people want the focus back on missions and away from these 'mega-stars' who transparently flaunt a sick greed.

'Donating' to these sacks of greed is money down the loo. It just feeds their egos.

"He has told our local newspaper religion writer that he does NOT earn over $300k, not even close, and that he is one of the lowest paid mega church pastors. He has told his congregation that he does NOT make as much as they think he makes."

He is referring to salary. You refer to total compensation package but the real truth is even different. Tuition, land gifts, free vacations and even lavish gift cards are all part of it. They never report these things to their congregations.

Another thing they do not claim as "compensation" are the speaking gigs and royalties from books. That flows under their own non profit para church organization.

Chuck Swindoll has made a fortune with this. Charity Navigator is quite the eye opener if one is ever interested to browse there. And most of these guys have their wife and kids working as "officers" with nice salaries.

Some of these guys are worth millions. And it is not hard to be when you rarely have to pay for things or are given great discounts on everything from cars to clothes.

I know of one mega church pastor that got his clothes for free from a high end mens clothing store because they could subtly advertise in their store that is where he got his clothes. Word of mouth is the best advertising.

I also know of another mega church pastor who had about 500 bucks worth of Starbucks cards in his desk drawer that someone had given him because he once said he like Latte's from the pulpit.Duke

Until the last couple years, I've always been in a church. But the longer you are away from it, the more you see it for what it is.

I've never understood how huge, cushy buildings had anything to do with the message of Jesus. Just as people rightly mock the Catholic Church with its opulence and owning tons of property tax-free-how are Protestant churches any different?

They look like big businesses to me. And they do it all tax-free. And pastors don't have to consider all of their income as income for tax purposes. Plus lots of freebies, just because people enjoy being generous to their pastor.

One other thing that has always bothered me-pastors going on cruises and to "the holy land." And people let them get away with this stuff. Aren't they supposedly so worried about sinners going to hell? I don't think they're all that worried.

People are people, and if they have money and want to travel, more power to them. But don't at the same time have the gall to ask others for money or pretend that it's all about Jesus. The sheer hypocrisy is what makes it all so ugly.

If I were a Christian truly wanting to serve Jesus, I'd quit worrying about church and find some real people to really help. Your money does not have to go through the church to get to the needy people. You can just do it directly. Quit giving it to the ministers who get the tax breaks that you do not.

"Until the last couple years, I've always been in a church. But the longer you are away from it, the more you see it for what it is."

Can't you people see what you are doing? MB may be a terrible pastor. He may not be a good leader. He may be destroying FB Jax. But discussing it in an open forum brings a greater reproach on the the cause of Christ. You people are making a bad situation worse, not better. And, in doing so, you have become a stumbling block. This problem should be handled by the fine people at FB Jax, and if they refuse to do so, go find a church you have the liberty to worship in.

Lynn, if you are reading this, Satan would have you think that this bickering is what Christianity is all about. Church is absolutely necessary for the cause of Christ. Christ himself established the church. Over time, however, man has tried to improve on a perfect concept, thereby creating a stumbling block for Kingdom growth. Do not look at the human aspect, look to Christ. We must assemble. We must enjoy corporate service and worship. All who belong to Christ desire fellowship with fellow laborers. Christ never called anyone to be a "closet" Christian.

I would love to hear of anyone who has been led to Christ through this blog. Through these efforts, is the Kingdom growing? I doubt it. I would tend to believe that there are more "Lynns" out there. They see the imperfections and failures of workers in the church played out on a public stage, and they are driven even farther away.

As far as giving is concerened, if you think you are giving to the pastor or the church then you are giving in the wrong spirit. You will never be satisfied in the return you receive on your dollar if your view of giving is centered around man. When you give, you should be giving out of obedience to God, and not about "your return". Give freely and sacrificially. Don't concern yourself with what is done with the money. God deals with the heart. If the money is being misused, God will deal with that. The blessing you receive is not based on a dollar amount or the outcome of how the money is used. God blesses because of obedience. If God convicts you to give 10% then anything less is disobedience. If God convicts you to give 50%, anything less is disobedience. If He convicts 5%, anything less is disobedience. You will never outgive God. Also, withholding your givings because things are not going the way you want them to is just simple disobedience, and is subject to the wrath of God, whether you like it or not.

Anon - I disagree that this blog is a stumbling block. The stumbling block are the preachers who are misusing scripture, and employing guilt and sarcasm and belittling the real financial stresses their parishioners have to get them to give to their church and their building programs. They are the stumbling block, not a blog that gets a couple of hundred hits a day, and asks no one for any money.

The more the light is shone on these actions of these pastors the better. This blog is a place for people to talk through these issues.

And your assertion that the money should be given with no care of how it is spent is foolish advice. Dangerous. People should care, and there should be total transparency at the level desired by the giver. But I know the preachers for decades have groomed their people to not question, and in fact to question how the money is spent is to not "trust Jesus", and that is wrong. No biblical basis whatsoever for that, and it results in wasted resources.

"I don't know anything about Jeffress, but I have seen video of Gaines, and it is pitiful. Gaines was throwing a childish tantrum in the pulpit because some parents had brought a baby in with them and the baby started to cry."

Check out this Sunday at Bellevue as no one under 13 is welcome as Gaines will be preaching a PG-13 sermon on "Pornography"

"Children:Camp Outrageous Reunion Rally October 3 for grades 1-5!• Fellowship Hall, 9:30 or 11:11 a.m. while parents are in Worship.• Life Groups meet as usual.• Wear a Camp Outrageous t-shirt!• The message in the main Worship Service will be sensitive in nature."

"Can't you people see what you are doing? MB may be a terrible pastor. He may not be a good leader. He may be destroying FB Jax. But discussing it in an open forum brings a greater reproach on the the cause of Christ. You people are making a bad situation worse, not better. And, in doing so, you have become a stumbling block."

This is the real fear that people will stop supporting these temples of entertainment.

My hope is that people WILLL get out of them. And follow Christ. The early church met in humble homes.

This is not a stumbling block, it showing the underbelly of the evil that is called a "church". It is exposing the truth of how vapid and what a sham it is.

A lot of research has been done on those leaving the institutional church and it was found that the serious believers are leaving. Not the nominal people as many thought. The serious believers can no longer be a part of supporting the sham.

The Mac's and Steves and Paige Pattersons are all fakes. Career fake Christians not much different than career politicians. Except the politicians are more honest and most are not selling Jesus for personal gain.

"He has told our local newspaper religion writer that he does NOT earn over $300k, not even close, and that he is one of the lowest paid mega church pastors. He has told his congregation that he does NOT make as much as they think he makes."

He is referring to salary. You refer to total compensation package but the real truth is even different.

"Anon - I disagree that this blog is a stumbling block. The stumbling block are the preachers who are misusing scripture, and employing guilt and sarcasm and belittling the real financial stresses their parishioners have to get them to give to their church and their building programs. They are the stumbling block, not a blog that gets a couple of hundred hits a day, and asks no one for any money."

Both are stumbling blocks. Plenty of blame to go around. This forum, though possibly unintentional, fans the flames of anger and creates an avenue for the flesh to shine brighter than the Christ we claim to serve.

"And your assertion that the money should be given with no care of how it is spent is foolish advice."

I will clarify my statement. When I say we shouldn't "concern" ourselves with how the money is spent, I am speaking of "purpose". We should never give for any "purpose" other than obedience, and, therefore, when we overly concern ourselves with how the money is spent, it reveals we gave with an impure purpose (we gave seeking a certain result). When your "purpose" for giving is complete obedience, you will give regardless. I totally agree in total transparency. If there are any improprieties, they should be dealt with IN HOUSE. Not a public forum. This hinders the Kingdom.

By the way, WD. I am still wondering if all of this hostility and bickering has led anyone to Christ? Just answer. Either yes, no, or I don't know. (Please don't say, "It is not the purpose of this forum to lead people to Christ.")

"Don't concern yourself with what is done with the money. God deals with the heart. If the money is being misused, God will deal with that."

You can't believe in total transparency and make the above statement. Your statement above is quite clear. Christians should fork over the money and not ask questions. I'll hold you to that first statement.

As to your last question, this blog is not here to "lead someone to Christ". I don't measure my "Kingdom work" by how many notches are in my belt, or how many people I got to say a prayer. But my blog does serve a purpose in the Kingdom, my friend. Posters here are believers, and we love the Lord. This blog is evidence to the world that there are clear thinking Christians who question their leadership, who are interested in transparency and accountability in their churches.

As much as it my pain you to consider it, this blog serves a purpose in the Kingdom. Amen. Praise Jesus for blogs where Christians can communicate with each other and that help to hold leaders accountable.

Anon 12:12... a stumbling block??? Are you kidding me/us? C'mon. The stumbling block is without any doubt the amount of people who call themselves Christian leaders who continuously bring disrepute upon the bride of Christ.

Do you not know that unbelievers watch the greed, manipulation, application of guilt-trips, liars and the sexually immoral among us? They ARE watching and taking it all in. They have concluded, rightly or wrongly, that we are ALL hypocrites. Can you blame them? I can't. We say that the presence of God in our lives has made us better and more moral than they are. But, they can't get through a week without reading yet another account of one of us behaving in an abominable way. Most never hear about people like Rick Warren, whom God has blessed with enormous riches, yet he gave back ALL 25 years of his salary from Saddleback, never took another salary and they give away 91% of ALL that they make and live on 9%. Just to be clear, I don't agree with everything Warren does or teaches, but the unbelieving world simply does not hear about his obvious committment to the sick, and the poor. Nope, they see leaders like Eddie Long who teaches tithing while we see his wrist covered in gold bracelets. They see Ergun Caner who is an absolute liar in every sense of the word. They hear about Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, etc. ad nauseum.

The Christian church is under an all-out assault led by Satan. The MSM loves to show us at our worst, and people like Mac have the nerve to show their hubris on video.

You should be extremely grateful to Watchdog for having the courage to tell the truth. We simply must police ourselves because many, many in Church leadership seem to agree with the BHO interpretation of transparency AND, the BHO method of blaming everyone else for their own actions. Who would have EVER thought for a moment, that a man who calls himself a Minister for the church of Jesus Christ, would go so far as to violate the Constitutional rights of someone simply because they don't agree with them?

Who exactly do you think will call these people on their atrocious behavior if we do not? Would you rather see it on 20/20?

Hiding our blemishes from the world only makes us complicit with the sin. We need to call our leaders to the highest standards (as scripture requires) and we should demand total transparency. I'd go so far as to say that EVERY church should have a completely open book when it comes to finances. The people who give should have some reassurance that their hard earned money isn't being used to fatten up the lifestyle of the leadership. We should reveal the Pastor's complete compensation package.

When I invite someone to come to my church, I want them to see the church that abounds in honesty and integrity and you should too.

Katie

WD, I'm not attempting to post anonymously on purpose. Google has my account so messed up that every time I post, I have to change my password. It's not worth it, so I will sign my name. Thanks for understanding.

To the Anonymous who keeps asking "How many people has this blog brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?"

I think that you are missing half the question. The other half should be, "How many people have been able to keep the faith through this blog and others like it?"

I suspect the number is respectable, and could even be a good witness to seekers. Most of us are bothered when members of other religions don't call out leaders who are messing up, big time, so we should behave similarly

So, if the dog shuts up, no one will be the wiser? That is exactly what the charlatan wants.

"When I say we shouldn't "concern" ourselves with how the money is spent, I am speaking of "purpose". We should never give for any "purpose" other than obedience, and, therefore, when we overly concern ourselves with how the money is spent, it reveals we gave with an impure purpose (we gave seeking a certain result). "

I am sure that is what Eddie Long taught his people while he was molesting those boys in his mega church.

How silly. Of course there was NO reason for the Epistles to be written since God will take care of everything in the Body. All that counsel, those warnings and what to do were for what? We should ignore the Epistles according to your doctrine.

You just do not want to admit that you never question the charlatan. You want that to be 'holy'. But it isn't. It is ignorance. So the only way you can deal with your own ignorance is to insist that those who believe in transparancy are not real Christians like you.

By the way, WD. I am still wondering if all of this hostility and bickering has led anyone to Christ? Just answer. Either yes, no, or I don't know. (Please don't say, "It is not the purpose of this forum to lead people to Christ.")

October 3, 2010 1:21 AM

Too bad you do not control the responses since you are insisting.

BTW: How does YOUR comment lead people to Christ since you are trashing the Christians here? See how that tripe works?

"As to your last question, this blog is not here to "lead someone to Christ". I don't measure my "Kingdom work" by how many notches are in my belt, or how many people I got to say a prayer. But my blog does serve a purpose in the Kingdom, my friend. Posters here are believers, and we love the Lord. This blog is evidence to the world that there are clear thinking Christians who question their leadership, who are interested in transparency and accountability in their churches."

Sad to see that you consider someone coming to Christ as a "notch in a belt". Very disturbing! The world does not need to see the human aspect of the church. The human side has never accomplished anything for Christ. This blog is not about transparency or accountability, it is about axes to grind, vengence, and hatred. Just curious. Do you love MB and EC? I'm not asking if you love their actions. I'm asking if you love them. If you do, why all of the name calling? Quite honestly, many of the so-called Christians on this blog have shown hatred towards me and they don't even know who I am. Why? Christlike? I think not!

"Sad to see that you consider someone coming to Christ as a "notch in a belt". Very disturbing! The world does not need to see the human aspect of the church. The human side has never accomplished anything for Christ."

That is strange because that is what they see as unbelievers. And we look a lot like the greed and selfishness of the world system. If the Christians do not look any different than the world, then what is the point of telling them they will be "new creations" and what on earth does being "born again" mean in your world?

" Just curious. Do you love MB and EC? I'm not asking if you love their actions. I'm asking if you love them. If you do, why all of the name calling? Quite honestly, many of the so-called Christians on this blog have shown hatred towards me and they don't even know who I am. Why? Christlike? I think not!"

So, to you "love" means you do not tell negative truths about a Christian celebrity who is paid to be a professional Christian? Those negative truths must be swept under the rug? Perhaps until the secular media gets ahold of them and then unbelievers cannot understand why "Christians" go along or protect such things?

And What name calling? We should not say that a liar is a liar? If Christians cannot call out an obvious liar among their leadership then we are in big trouble.

If we are not allowed to discuss what we see as abherrent behavior or twisting of the Word, then what are we? A cult?

No one has shown hatred toward you. that is your filter because you have been taught that filter that when negative truths are presented about someone you like, it is called "hate". Very clever but also very blind and very easy to dismiss facts you do not like.

You have bought the lie about the need for a good image over truth and purity. Lots of celebrity pastors are selling that lie these days.

Just curious. Do you love MB and EC? I'm not asking if you love their actions. I'm asking if you love them. If you do, why all of the name calling? Quite honestly, many of the so-called Christians on this blog have shown hatred towards me and they don't even know who I am. Why? Christlike? I think not!

October 3, 2010 10:36 AM

How do you seperate their actions from who they are? AFter all, they have made ministry their career. So, how do you seperate that? They are paid to be Christian models.

How do you seperate that in light of Hebrews 10: 26-31?

Would you think that a long time follower of Christ would be an unrepentant congenital liar? Should that be the norm for us?

I would think that would be serious cause for concern among professing Christians. Strange that many think pointing this out is the worse sin.

But these days it is all about following the celebrity and making excuses for them. So many have invested so much in the celebrity Christian they cannot admit they were following man instead of Christ.

"Just curious. Do you love MB and EC? I'm not asking if you love their actions. I'm asking if you love them. If you do, why all of the name calling? Quite honestly, many of the so-called Christians on this blog have shown hatred towards me and they don't even know who I am. Why? Christlike? I think not!"

When Christ commands not to give that which is holy to dogs or cast pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6), do you love the dogs and swine?

To all those FBC jax members who have a ear to hear by reading concerns from people god bless you. If first baptist church had their way they would not want any discussion. They are correct in all maters. This is simular to the communist manifisto. A dialog with the community is what Jesus would want. FBC members please wake up and expirence what is really going on. Your brains are being conditioned to the way they want you to believe.

Anonymous,You expressed concern that this blog is a stumbling block to the cause of Christ.

I wanted to just say from my perspective, it is not. My views changed long before I came across this blog. Even as a kid, I could plainly see that what people were taught at church and what people truly cared about were very different.

Unbelievers have no illusions that Christians are truly different from non-Christians. I think we are all the same. We just have different beliefs.

I think blogs like this are actually much more honest than keeping the ugly things safely out of sight. I took my faith very seriously from childhood and believed it all-which set me up for a big disillusionment. It can make you quite bitter, thinking back on how you took it all so seriously. Makes you feel quite betrayed actually.

It's MUCH better to not pretend that all is well. Just be real and honest from the get-go.

So I'm all for honest and respectful discussion, and I see the saved and the unsaved as just fellow human beings. So please don't worry about keeping up appearances. I don't think I'm better than you, and I don't think you're better than me.

I appreciate the open discussions here and on other blogs between decent, reasonable, intelligent people.

Any situation where people don't feel free to say what they really think is not good, in my opinion. (Well, maybe at your job, you might want to watch it-lol.)

Christians are looked at with distain because their habbits are not of the world. Sure we put our trousers on the same way and some need a few extra notches, but that is not the point. The point is those who are converts are saved by god and through him only. Go to FBC Jax and see how their habbits are of the world. Prehaps the world thinks of converts with distain because they should be different and are not because leaders like Dr. Brunson

I went to the morning service at FBC Jax yesterday. The million dollar Remodeling special offering was collected, and I just had a couple of observations.

Mac has been completely obsessed about this offering. The choir did a beautiful and moving hymn called "It is finished", and many in the congregation were so touched that they rose to their feet in a standing ovation. When Mac came to the platform immediately after, he anxiously said that it will be finished after the offering is collected!!

I thought that was incredibly insensitive and crass. Then when Rev Blount prayed the opening prayer, it was all about the offering!! It was a long "prayer" intended to put pressure on people to give. And he had the nerve to say that the congregation should give, and not be worried about "stuff"! But the offering was ALL about stuff !!

Do they realize how completely hypocritical they are? Or do they think we just won't notice? Then, they announced that the offering would be collected at the end of the service, so that people would have time to "prepare."

Read: I want one last time to cajole and guilt you into giving, so you'll make out a bigger check......

Question: One wealthy member or two could easily come up with one million. Why all the hysterics? It doesn't make sense.

As always, thanks for all that you do, and blessings to you and yours!

I don't get it? Mac is God's man doing God's work in God's way. Why all this hatred? Why all the nitpicking? Could you do a better job? Or is the TRUTH that YOU want HIS JOB! YOU would do things differently....ok......so are you GOD! Let God do His Work on Mac...and stop being the Holy Spirit.

I listened to Charles Stanley Saturday night (latest sermon on the In Touch website), and he told a story about when he was prez of the SBC he was on the "Peace Committee" and they were meeting somewhere. He was seated before the meeting began and said some man, a longtime preacher, came up to him and just reamed him out. He said the man went on and on and on for about 15 minutes. He described it as a brutal verbal attack. (Which it may have been. I'm not condoning the man's behavior if it was really as Stanley described it.) He said he just sat there expressionless without responding and when the man finally stopped Stanley said he realized what the problem was. The man was jealous of him! Yep, that's right. The thought apparently never crossed his mind that he might have had some criticism coming. Oh, no. It was all the man's problem. He was jealous!

And you may recall Stanley was the one paraphrased by Joel Gregory in Too Great a Temptation when the bigwigs of the SBC had their infamous little airport meeting to save Paige Patterson's job at Criswell College:

After opening the meeting I [Gregory] let the visiting dignitaries have their say. And have it they did. These pastors were not in the habit of interference from laymen in their churches. They ruled like kings. They proceeded to lecture the trustees [of Criswell College] at length concerning the person and value of Paige Patterson. Jerry Vines and Charles Stanley were clearly hot. Stanley recounted his own battles at First Baptist, Atlanta. On his accession to the pastorate, an oligarchy of laypersons opposed him. He then spelled out to Bo Sexton [Criswell College trustee chairman] and the trustees the horrible things that had happened to the families of those who opposed him: disease, death, divorce, etc. The implication was clear: if you touch Paige Patterson, God will get you. I was sitting next to Bo and thought he would explode.

It is so sad to see the blog used as a tool of Satan. And that is absolutely what it is. It is negatively affecting so many people and their view of the church and that is so sad. WD, I hope you are happy as Satan uses you to destroy God's church.

This blog a tool of Satan? Get real little child. This commentary has some hard hitting commentary, but these big boys should be able to take, far behind their gated homes and all secure in their big salaries and political connections.

We expect more of these leaders, apparently you don't. You like the status quo system and indulge in your hero worship. That is idolatry to hold a man above the word, and the integrity of the word. Wake up. Please.

"It is so sad to see the blog used as a tool of Satan. And that is absolutely what it is. It is negatively affecting so many people and their view of the church and that is so sad. WD, I hope you are happy as Satan uses you to destroy God's church."

Anon-I couldn't agree more! Good to see that there are still some clear thinking Christians out there that understand the severity of playing out our bitter discontentment on a public stage for all of the world to see. Through this blog, the world can use the excuse, "if that is what it means to be a Christian, then I don't want any part of it." I have never condoned anything MB has done simply because I don't know the specifics. Some would say that "if you don't know the specifics, then you have no right to comment". The point is, I don't need to know the specifics, nor do I want to know. If Mac did wrong, certainly any sane Christian that knows any inkling of scripture would know that God will hold him accountable. All of these issues should be resolved, but not in public. The purpose on this blog is to exaserbate hurt and shame. Everyone read Ephesians 4:1-3 (emphasis on verse 3). Read Romans 12:17-21 How can you read these scriptures (and there are many more, by the way) and justify the hateful rehtoric on this blog. Should wrongdoers be held accountable. Of course! You will find no where in scripture where we are commanded to take a brother or sister who has done wrong, bring them to the public square, and put them on trial there for all the world to see. Who is without sin? Let him cast the first stone. Who said that? Quite honestly, I don't see much compassion here at all. There are a lot of people to whom I disagree. It is possible to disagree in love, however.

I was a part of a church that had to deal with a pastor that began using the pulpit for his own agenda. We dealt with him within the church. It wasn't very pretty. For a while, there were some hard feelings. Those have now faded. Still there, I'm sure, but faded. I loved then and love today that pastor. He was in the wrong, and it was dealt with. He will now admit that. The point is, we kept it in house. We never put an add in the local paper (which, in essence is what a blog is, except much larger, and much more damaging) decribing his failures and how much we disapproved of him. We dealt with it among the people who knew that even pastors have the propensity to sin.

October 4, 2010 1:47 PM - Does your view apply to Eddie Long, Darrel Gilyard and Bob Gray's church members too? Does blogging about those men hurt the cause of Christ, or was it those men's own actions that caused the harm?

You believe that Christians discussing a pastor's words and actions in the pulpit, criticizing a pastor, is going to thwart the will of God. Satan is using the blog you say. I say, Satan is using some mega church pastors to discourage and offend Christians by using strong-arm tactics of fund raising more akin to Amway and Benny Hinn than they are to scripture.

And if God will take care of Mac or any other pastor we discuss here and we should just shut up, then why can't YOU just let God take care of me? If this blog is so sinful, and it is so damaging to the cause of Christ, then why don't you stop reading it, tell people not to read it, and wait for God to deal with me? If God will take care of a wayward pastor, surely God will take care of a recalcitrant blogger in His good time, eh?

I think the problem that many Christians such as yourself have with this blog, is they know their pastor's words and actions are difficult to defend in the public arena of discussion. We're discussing the tithe, we're discussing fund raising tacticts used by Brunson in September. So join the discussion - or stop reading the blog and wait for God to take care of me.

When you help a needy person, do it in such a way that even your closest friend will not know about it. Then it will be a private matter. And your Father, who sees what you do in private, will reward you.--- Matthew 6:34 (TEV)

Anonymous October 4, 2010 2:35 PM said... How would you like it if people talked about you behind your back?

How would you like your name dragged thru the mud?

How would you like people to talk about you like a "dog"?

That's pretty funny -- you've just described how the Watchdog was treated by the leadership of his church.

Can't you Watchdog-bashing Anons see how absurd and ridiculous it is for you to publicly criticize the author of this blog for publicly criticizing someone else? The silliness of it would make me laugh out loud if it weren't so pathetic.

RIght on cue, the attacks begin. Those of you say this blog is not a tool of Satan yet all that gets spewed from many of your mouths are criticism and hate. Yet, I am the one you deem as having a little God and an immature faith. I am accused of pastor-worship even though I never stated anything that resembled support for these preachers. I simply made a statement about this blog that many of you chose to take out of context. That's alright, keep it up, for you are simply proving my point.

"RIght on cue, the attacks begin. Those of you say this blog is not a tool of Satan yet all that gets spewed from many of your mouths are criticism and hate. Yet, I am the one you deem as having a little God and an immature faith. I am accused of pastor-worship even though I never stated anything that resembled support for these preachers. I simply made a statement about this blog that many of you chose to take out of context. That's alright, keep it up, for you are simply proving my point."

Exactly!!!!!

"If God will take care of a wayward pastor, surely God will take care of a recalcitrant blogger in His good time, eh?"

Not real sure it is a good idea to be mocking the soverignty of God!

"I think the problem that many Christians such as yourself have with this blog, is they know their pastor's words and actions are difficult to defend in the public arena of discussion."

Uh, where do you find in scripture that we are to be sharing what "the preacher"said. Aren't we suppose to evangelize the Gospel?

WD-You will never get it because you are bitter. You tried to handle a church issue through a public arena and the MAJORITY of the church did not like it, and they rebuked you. I am not saying that your original beef wasn't valid. I am saying that you then, just as you are now, handling it in the wrong matter, and no good will come of it. You can't "produce" good. Anything good comes from Christ, and He is no where near this.

As to why I am blogging. I am a pastor in North Georgia. I was brought to this site by accident. By googling FB Jax, this site was the first to pop up. (That is disturbing in and of itself. Proof that Satan is attempting to hinder the work of FB Jax) I'm sure you don't believe "all" of the ministries at FB Jax are bad, do you? If someone in need seeking help stumbles upon this site by accident, as I did, can't you see how this hurts the Kingdom? Please tell me you are not that self-absorbed!

You don't have the facts right about my situation, but that's ok. If you're interested it is here on the blog for you to read. I really wasn't rebuked by the "MAJORITY" of the church. It was a very small group of powerful men, called a "discipline committee", who had a sheriff's detective on their committee that used subpoenas to identify me so they could issue me and my wife trespass papers as they didn't like what I was writing. It really was not a "MAJORITY" of my church, it was less than 0.01% of my church if that matters any to you as a pastor.

But there is much good that will come from this blog, and when pastors come here and categorically tell me that this blog is "not of Christ" and is "of Satan", it confirms even more that this blog is going to continue to be used for good and it helps to encourage me to continue shining a light on the ridiculousness that is going on in evangelical circles. So thank you, as your words help encourage me to continue my ministry on this blog. This blog has already done great "Kingdom work", more than you know, and only eternity will show the good that it has done and will continue to do.

So you do your ministry in your church in North Carolina as the Lord has called you, and I will follow the Lord's leading here in Jacksonville. I can't tell you how glad I am to know that a pastor in NC is reading my blog. I think you can learn quite a bit from this blog, reading the hearts and minds of lay people.

As to your last question...no, if a person stumbles on this site, someone not a Christian - they will see clear thinking Christians who are discussing important matters about their faith and their leaders. That is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Funny you call me "self absorbed" - so many of you pastors are so absolutely self-absorbed that you think any public criticism is sin and will cause people to stumble into hell. Nope, this blog is as much a part of "Kingdom Work" as you and your preaching ministry. We are all part of the body, brother.

About the lost and disputes and this blog. I have never witnessed to a lost person who ever mentioned my blogging or anyone else’s as being an issue with regard to coming to Christ. The fact is my displeasure with what happened at my former church has opened doors to sharing with others that were formally closed to me.

For the most part, it is the disputes that have created any number of different kinds of Baptists and other Christian groups that confuse them.

Disputes are a normal part of the human condition. How many here have brothers or sisters with whom they so not speak? Do you and your wife always agree? When you argue with your wife do you call her “an agent of Satan?” Try it; let me know how that works for you! (I wonder; is saying someone is an agent of Satan using Satan’s name in vain? And wouldn’t you have to be close to Satan to know?)

Why is it OK for preachers to blog from the pulpit and say all manner of evil things about those who disagree with them? I am still waiting to hear, from scripture, why are preachers special and somehow above reproach.

History and even the Bible would seem to suggest it is the preachers and religious leaders who consistently get it wrong.

You would also say, other Godly men will speak out and say what needs to be said. No they won’t. I know and have candidly talked to several who are as disturbed at what is happening in the church today as I am and even one who did speak out for right and they all know they are subject to immediate and severe retaliation if and when they do. So they keep silent. Which brings up another point, can a Christian be Godly and retaliate? I mean trespass orders are you kidding me! Would it not be hypocritical to sing “Whosoever will May Come” and issue trespass orders against someone? (That’s a question, not an accusation.)

For all of you who worship your pastor may I refer you to the Book of Psalms especially the first 15 chapters. In the Psalms you will find that at our best (everyone)we are but filthy rags. There is none good no not one. I highly recommend the Psalms as they are so accurate and up to date on those who take advantage of the babes in Christ. Maybe, just maybe the people would have it so in some cases and they get what they wish or hope for and sometimes it is DISASTER!!!!

Attack a pastor. Attack a pastor. Attack a pastor. That's pretty much all most of you do on here. No, that is not kingdom work. No, the impact you are having is not positive. Ultimately, what is said on this blog resembles the Corinthian church that was scolded because of its continued division along personality lines. You have the same problem that you say pastors do and that is a need for authority and attention. You need to be right. If you didn't there would be no need for a blog like this. Ultimately, a blog like and others simply serves the purpose of drawing attention to disgruntled church members because they couldn't see their way done in their church. So the natural combatant to that is to trash that church and her leadership because surely that will teach them. The devil "masquerades as an angel of light" and that seems to the the occurrence here.

I believe Romans 8:28 is appropriate. All things work together for good...even when the offerings are slim pickings. Even when the carpet wears thin and layoffs occur. I recall several Baptist Churches in Atlanta having to close their doors some years ago. They needed to be closed and they failed to reach anyone for Jesus Christ. Been there and done that. Being honest and truthful sometimes is a real blessing in disguise. Wake up folks time is drawing to a close. What one does for Jesus (not the building) is only what is important.

So why don’t you answer questions, teach and instruct? Why do you come here and attack and accuse, are you not just doing the same thing? Are you not the opposite side of the same coin? Surely, you being spiritual can provide spiritual proof and you can instruct us. Pastor Wiley and others do, why not you? I’d truly and sincerely like to know how a preacher can be of the spirit and purposely split a church for no other reason other than to in consolidate loyalty to him? How is requiring signed loyalty statements pledging support to a preacher spiritual?

Once again, another playbook response. I love the word "bitter." You use this word to make Tom the problem. You are just another ho-hum, run of the mill authoritarian bully who is completely flummoxed that the sheep are finally standing up to wretched leadership. Next time, at least try to be original in your insults.

I was in a Baptist church for many years. When we really had a pastor that cared for people and whose one aim was to win people to Jesus. He died. Once he was gone the slide down started for the church. I left. The longer I am away from churches, preachers, the "yes men" and the blind that still follow the leader, the happier I am. I see what the church has now become and I am sooo glad I am not part of this failure and yes, ... fall from Grace. I want no part of these arrogant, mean spirited men in charge today!!!!! The church has become irrelevant and in many cases a stumbling block for those sincerely wanting to be saved and to worship. The Holy Spirit is my teacher through His Word. Jesus blesses me everday. I witness wherever I can and I look for His imminent coming. "Even so come quickly Lord Jesus".

Surely one would understand by the way pastors are misrepresented on this blog why I must remain Anonymous.

October 5, 2010 10:04 AM___________________________________

Surely one would also understand by the way dissenters are labeled and treated, that Tom must also remain anonymous. Unfortunately, his right to do that was violated by none other than Detective Robert A. Hinson, a JSO sheriff's detective, deacon, and member of the discipline committee that was formed for the sole purpose of disciplining Mr. Rich for anonymously criticizing the pastor.

So...its not because you are a coward like A.C. Soud says when a person blogs anonymously?

Need a million bucks????? How does it feel to want? Preacher and family could take a pay cut!!! They would have the million in no time. Or do what the rest of us do.....do without. They need to concentrate on WINNING SOULS. All we hear from preachers these days is badgering about giving money. Do they really think trying to force people on a guilt trip, is their calling from God. Pardon me if I don't feel sorry for millionaire preachers. People don't have money for food, medicine or basic essentials. They live "royally". Do they really think it is spiritual to demand money or "else" from people that are trying to "get by" and to feed their children, care for their sick parents. Do they really believe this is what they have been called to do. Boy, do they have it wrong. We know it's all about money to keep them in the style in which they want to live. BTW, how crass to be promoting a $4,000 trip in this economy, and demand even more money through the OT doctrine of the tithe. Which is not required in the NT. It is insensitive to say the least. If they need new carpet, maybe too much money was spent on other things. Also, how is it progress to REDUCE the size of the church to make it look smaller and seat fewer, because they can't fill the larger one up. And, to spend millions doing it? Comments not directed to preachers of small churches and those sincerely trying to do Gods work.

Ben: Who I am is not important to you or anyone else. Just read the blogs. You and others on here have no idea who is blogging whether they are in America, China, or Spain. Some on here have provided their names and only have been put in the "divisive camp". No one need know who I am or what your last or first name is...its really not necessary for anyone to know.

"No sir. You "lumped yourself into the pot" by your own comments. You sound just like the type of "pastor" we are seeing so much of these days.

Does your congregation who pays your income know you are spending lots of time commenting on blogs? Do you have any accountability for your time? After all, they pay your salary."

What "type" is that, oh great one of wisdom? (Sarcasm intended)

2 points: I have no congregation, God does. I am simply a messenger, therefore, my income is provided by God. (So is yours, by the way. God is the provider of all things) Secondly, you don't know how much time I spend on blogs. Actually, this is the only blog I visit simply because I feel a sense of duty to try to interject Christ in what has become a very ugly, bitter situation. God is aware of my time, as is my church, and that is really all that matters. People like you do not believe God calls people to a Pastoral role. I get it. Enough with the hate. By the way, what position do you recommend should study God's word 20+ hours per week and fill the pulpit 3 times per week, provide comfort to families during tragedy, perform marriage ceremonies and funerals, visit the sick at home and in the hospital, answer 3am phone calls from desperate parents, remain "on call" 24 hours a day and 7 days a week, visit lost friends and family, listen to whinning about carpet, pews, money, song books, song selection, sunday school teachers, sunday school curriculum, deacons, musicians, nursery workers, more money, how it "used" to be, how "I" like it, what "Paw Paw" would do, who was greeted and who wasn't, video screens, youth programs, youth workers, youth parents, the cleanliness of the church, and on, and on, and on, and on. After you recommend who should fill that position, offer them compensation. Then you do it. I'll be praying for you, and hope you do the same for me. There is a lot of work to do, a lost world to be won, the harvest is plentiful, are you willing to be a laborer.

Where do I start. First of all, contrary to the opinions of most the people on this blog, the way most preachers live would not even be considered "middle-class". Secondly, when did man receive the power to place "guilt" on anyone. (There might be a divine reason you are feeling guilty) If you are giving in obedience to the call of God, obviously you are not the one the Pastor is being led to speak to. Pray for him and the ones to who are being disobedient. Quit giving to the church and to the preacher, for that matter. Start giving out of obedience to God and you will understand the "true" meaning of being "In Christ". It never fails to amaze me how willing people are to place their children in God's hands, yet are not willing to place their checkbooks in God's hands. (A disturbing fact that displays the priorities of many in the church) If the people in the church hadn't been so stingy and self centered in the past when money was flowing out of their ears, maybe times would not be so tough now. Do you really think that God needs your money to accomplish His will? God does not need you at all! We need Him! I can't afford to not give! I don't give out of obligation, I give out of worship. Try it. It might surprise you how much more you enjoy the communion than you do the money!

Since people on this blog are so concerned with the financial leadership of FB Jax, why don't you list them in this blog? What percentage of the income of the church goes to missions? What percentage goes to salaries? Etc. When listing, make sure you list what percentage you give. I really don't care and really don't want to know, but since you are "so" concerened with transparancy, be transparent. Oh wait! Forget that last part. We are to give secretly. So much for transparancy.

Yes, it is possible to wrongly place guilt to get people to do what YOU want them to do, instead of what God might want them to do. Sadly, some pastors and spiritual leaders are very good at this in both the sexual and financial realms as we see in the news.Not talking here about conviction of the Holy Spirit, we're talking about bullies who preach to guilt and shame and scare people in order to get them to release their money. That is not New Testament my friend.

You mention how it amazes you people put their kids in "God's hands". Yes, we do...but buddy, we don't let people get their hands on our kids, we watch them and protect them as God has charged us. And we should also do the same with our financial resources. There are charletons who want to get their hands on our wallets and our kids. And why is "trusting God with our checkbooks" the same as giving to your church?

I do give out of worship. But I've wised up and realized that dropping money in the plate does not equal "giving to God" exclusively. I have other areas God has led me to give and support.

And "transparency" has nothing to do with givers being transparent it has to do with the SPENDERS being transparent. Our city does it all the time. The church ought to try it.

It would also be a good thing for everyone to understand that not every Anon is the same person.

It would be much easier to understand if everyone would choose a unique screen name. If you don't want to be confused with other "Anonymouses" pick another name!

Watchdog has been considerate to allow unregistered readers to comment, but everyone can still click "Name/URL" and choose a screen name without registering (or including a URL). Until then, the confusion will continue so learn to deal with it.

"Ben: Who I am is not important to you or anyone else. Just read the blogs. You and others on here have no idea who is blogging whether they are in America, China, or Spain. Some on here have provided their names and only have been put in the "divisive camp". No one need know who I am or what your last or first name is...its really not necessary for anyone to know."

So much for truth. It matters not that you truthfully stand behind your words with your name.

Here is what you are saying, or at least how it comes across:

The truth of the matter is my name is not important to the discussion so I don't have to tell you.

It would be much easier to understand if everyone would choose a unique screen name. If you don't want to be confused with other "Anonymouses" pick another name!

*******I could not agree more. Unfortunately, google has made that very difficult. King of the way they have made YouTube almost impossible to navigate properly. I am registered, but every single time I try to post here (or any of the other google-based blogs, I end up having to change my password. So it takes 3 or 4 attempts to get my comments posted. This has caused me to post as 'Anonymous'. If anyone has a better idea, I'd sure be willing to listen. I'm not at all afraid to post my name.

"Yes, it is possible to wrongly place guilt to get people to do what YOU want them to do, instead of what God might want them to do."

I'm sorry, my friend, but you are wrong. Guilt is not "placed" by anyone. If you feel guilty for something you are innocent of, who does that speak of? When there is guilt, it is for a reason. If a pastor makes you feel guilty, then what you are really guilty of is pastor worship.

"Not talking here about conviction of the Holy Spirit, we're talking about bullies who preach to guilt and shame and scare people in order to get them to release their money. That is not New Testament my friend."

I agree it is not New Testament. Neither is remaining on the milk of the Word. If one lets a sinful "man" bring guilt, shame, and fear to them, then he/she are not very strong Christians. Obviously, you are the recipient of the guilt, shame, and fear seeing that this is your fit pitching.

"Yes, we do...but buddy, we don't let people get their hands on our kids, we watch them and protect them as God has charged us."

Come on! Is that the best you can come up with. Surely you know that God is soverign. There are many Godly parents that would be offended by this statement. Don't you think there are parents that did everything to protect their children, yet, they still faced many issue. I see it everyday, being a pastor and all. (Not that being a pastor means anything, we know how insignificant that is) There is never a time when you have "control" of your children. God is always in control. The point is, we should trust God and His soverignty, and stop trying to play God. There is no room within the Trinity, so you need not apply.

"It would be much easier to understand if everyone would choose a unique screen name. If you don't want to be confused with other "Anonymouses" pick another name!"

Uh, last time I checked, the city and the church serve different masters! Not a good role model. Try something else. Again, I believe in transparancy. From the way I understand it, the church is being transparant, you just disagree with the way things are being done. What you want is MB to be transparant. You should not expect more out of MB than you expect out of yourself.

There should be four choices below the comment box where it says "Choose an identity." Those are:

1. Google Account2. OpenID3. Name/URL4. Anonymous

It always defaults (at least on my computer) to #1, so all you "Anonymouses" must be clicking #4, the Anonymous box.

Try clicking #3, the Name/URL choice. Two boxes should appear below it labeled "Name" and "URL." Enter a unique screen name (it doesn't have to be your real name, so everyone can still remain anonymous), and you can leave the "URL" line blank. Then post your comment as usual.

I realize there are serious problems with Blogger. There have been periodic login problems the entire 4 years I've been using it. Lately there have been frequent error messages when you try to post comments, so I feel your pain. It would seem to me Google would work on fixing Blogger before they update their search engine to save the average user 2.315 seconds per month, but that's just me.

I'm just saying, I think if you can post as "Anonymous" you can just as easily post using a unique screen name to distinguish yourself from all the other anonymous posters. Neither requires you to log in.

See examples in this thread:

"Mac A Roni""The Other Tom""stt""Ben""Ben Patrick" (not sure if that's the same as "Ben")

"Mike" and "Dee" used the same option but added a URL. (Dee's doesn't work, but I digress.)

Hope that helps. I'll next post a test comment using this method to illustrate.

"Uh, last time I checked, the city and the church serve different masters! Not a good role model. Try something else. Again, I believe in transparency. From the way I understand it, the church is being transparent, you just disagree with the way things are being done. What you want is MB to be transparent. You should not expect more out of MB than you expect out of yourself."

While I have no issue with being personally transparent on financial things, to say that I have the same obligation as the organization that I donate money to is silly. The church has nothing to do with my income and I have "quite a bit" to do with the church's income. They should strive to convince me that they do the right thing with the money they get. One step in that direction is to be transparent in how it gets spent--ALL of it.

And it always made me think twice about how the money went out if I knew that someone else was going to look at the credit card statement and the checkbook. Accountability frees you to do it right.

Ben, just as information "idiocy" is not in reality. People who want to be "anon" may have a real good reason for staying anon. Get over it. Its really not important to anyone since most people could care less about one another in the real world. I know that sounds strange, however, I am a realist. You wouldn't know me if we had coffee together. Have a nice day tomorrow.

Did someone pass out a survey on "gripped with fear". How would anyone know who/why/how/when any other individual was in this attitude of being in fear. I've been around for quite awhile and have yet to see such a survey. Maybe its imaginary.

The city and the church "serve two different masters"? As in who, God and Satan? I don't think so.

They do serve two different functions, yes. One civil, one spiritual. Both are ordained of God, right? Did not Jesus say God put these men and women in positions of authority over us for our good (not speaking of the pastors, but government authorities.)

But my point is this: churches and the city govt both get their money from the same place. From you and from me.

And we should hold them to high ethical standards. Our society has discovered a wonderful means to help those who receive public monies from abusing the money: it is called transparency. I see nothing wrong with expecting churches to be transparent with the congregation about how the money is spent, especially as it relates to the highest expense category: compensation of professional ministers. Transparency is a very, very good thing. It will only be a matter of time before the government requires 501(c)3 religious organizations to provide open books to the donors as a means of enjoying their tax exempt status. Why not be ahead of the game and practice transparency?

"I'm sorry, my friend, but you are wrong. Guilt is not "placed" by anyone. If you feel guilty for something you are innocent of, who does that speak of? When there is guilt, it is for a reason. If a pastor makes you feel guilty, then what you are really guilty of is pastor worship. "

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I am embarrassed you are pushing this view. Guilt is used by people all the time in varying degrees. We all do. To place guilt is to wrongly place blame on someone. I've seen pastors blame non-tithers for the economy, that God has judged our nation because Christians aren't giving 10%. We've read about sexual abusers and their defenders who place guilt (blame) on the victim.

"...my income is provided by God. (So is yours, by the way. God is the provider of all things)"___________________________________

Pastor - please stop with the church speak nonsense! Your income is provided by donations given "to God" alright. But mine comes from my employer. You know how I know that? Because when I did not have a job, I did not receive any money "from God." None. Zilch. Then, when I got a job and started working every day, I received money. And it was not from God. It was from my employer.

When the church actually gives me some of "God's money" that it collects, then I will admit "it all comes from God" and might even donate some of it back to the church that gave it to me out of gratitude.

The truth of the matter is my name is not important to the discussion so I don't have to tell you.

Do you not see the idiocy on such a position?

October 5, 2010 3:45 PM___________________________________

No, I don't see the idiocy. If an anonymous poster blogs that Mac Brunson rec'd a $307,000 land gift two weeks after he arrived from J.D. Collins, then I don't care who wrote it or why he wrote it. I will check the public records and confirm it.

Then I will begin to wonder, all by myself, why it was given, when it was given, and why it was accepted when the book the recipient co-authored said not to accept expensive gifts.

I don't need to know the first name, last name, or motive of the blogger. Do you?

You said, "When the church actually gives me some of "God's money" that it collects, then I will admit "it all comes from God" and might even donate some of it back to the church that gave it to me out of gratitude."

We routinely help our members and others who are going through financial dificulties. No one helped you at all when you were unemployed?

You should not expect more out of MB than you expect out of yourself.___________________________________

More arrogance from a pastor. Wrong sir! The WD does not accept large land gifts from members of FBC Jax, nor does he hire his own family with money donated to FBC Jax (or "to God" if you prefer), nor does he stand in a pulpit and try to guilt people into giving money for renovations because the $15 million already given by them is not enough.

Mac is "God's man" to lead the church and you, as a pastor, are saying we should not expect any more transparency out of him then we would some blogger? Really, pastor. You can do better than that can't you?

Since people on this blog are so concerned with the financial leadership of FB Jax,...___________________________________

It seems to me that Mac is the one most concerned with finances at FBC Jax. He can't keep asking for more money, millions more. Demanding more, while accusing the givers of being fearful...while spending over a million a month that keeps pouring in from the same folks.

And didn't a very wealthy donor recently die and leave millions to the church? Yes? Where did all those millions end up?

We routinely help our members and others who are going through financial dificulties. No one helped you at all when you were unemployed?

October 6, 2010 10:27 AM__________________________________

Pastor John - that is encouraging to hear. Many pastors teach that these folks should keep giving the same amount to God while they are unemployed. They even use video testimonies of a family that did this if they can find one such family.

And no, the church did not give me one dime when I needed it the most. My family did. And some generous business men I knew helped with a couple of specific payments I had due.

Oh, and the credit card companies helped me out with loans. Nothing from the church or its staff.

I am not bitter. Just wiser. If I was in a church like yours, I would want to help and would likely give more based on what you are sharing. :) But otherwise, my own family's needs, others I know of who have needs, and the programs actually helping the poor, will get "God's money" from me.

I'm sorry about the bad experience you had. I think that one of the big problems I see today in the church is that somewhere down the line we started looking at church as a service we attend rather than a body we are connected to. The Bible commands us to help our brothers and sisters in Christ when in need, I don't understand why any church wouldn't do this. Once again, I'm sorry.

Readers: an anonymous post came through today, from someone claiming to be a LU professor. This post is in the previous Ergun Caner article, but I thought I'd put it here:

"I have to remain anonymous as I am Faculty at Liberty U. Many of us are totally embarassed by this guy and the way Liberty U is continuing to shelter him. And also to allow him to get paid to do nothing. He did not attend one School Of Religion faculty meeting so far this year, is kept away from all contact with students, and remains invisible except for trotting him out to "preach" at Thomas Road and these types of events. They really believe here that it will all just miraculously go away, and then they will bring him back to replace his buddy Elmer Towns and get more dollars in through enrollment like he did before. This is a real black eye for those of us that try to do the right thing at a place where a family is allowed to run a "University" like a Church. "

"When the church actually gives me some of "God's money" that it collects, then I will admit "it all comes from God" and might even donate some of it back to the church that gave it to me out of gratitude.

Stop with the church speak. Thanks."

Believe me, speaking God's Word was left off of this blog a long time ago. God has never forsaken one of His, nor has He left them "begging for bread". I guess the question is, "Are you one of His?" If so, He never left you even in the midst of your darkest hour. How do you like that "church speak"?

Believe me, speaking God's Word was left off of this blog a long time ago. God has never forsaken one of His, nor has He left them "begging for bread". I guess the question is, "Are you one of His?" If so, He never left you even in the midst of your darkest hour. How do you like that "church speak"?___________________________________

I have seen millions of "one of his" begging for bread in various countries around the world as well as here on Jacksonville's street corners. Are you so hardened that you assume none of those can be "one of his?" Jesus said as you have done it to the least of these (naked, hungry, etc.) you have done it to me.

Am I one of His? Not if I must believe what you believe and live the way you live and have attitudes you have. Then NO. I am NOT one of His. I have not drank that Kool-aid and am not one.

When was my "darkest hour?" - 3:00 a.m in the morning? I didn't see him there. Was He there with me? It was pretty dark then. But it stayed dark for more than an hour.

"By his stripes we are healed." That is why we don't have any hospitals or funeral parlors. Amen with the church speak!

Oh, I forgot, it doesn't really mean that. I need my pastor/man of god to tell me what it really means.

"Go sell everything you have and give to the poor, THEN come, follow me." Okay, that NT teaching, directly from Jesus' mouth, does NOT apply to us. But Malachi 3:10 does. wink, wink. You tell em pastors.

By your fruits you will be known. There is no room for two masters. If your fruit is money your congregation will suffer without the peace of the holly spirit. However, the satinic world will grant power that you probally feel you deserve FBCJ

"Am I one of His? Not if I must believe what you believe and live the way you live and have attitudes you have. Then NO. I am NOT one of His. I have not drank that Kool-aid and am not one.

When was my "darkest hour?" - 3:00 a.m in the morning? I didn't see him there. Was He there with me? It was pretty dark then. But it stayed dark for more than an hour. "

I am fearful for the hateful tone from whomever this Anon is. Do you not believe that God will care for His children? Most people have gotten themselves in such a financial mess by not being good stewards, not giving obediently, and living to please selfish desires, that when hard times do come, they find themselves in a difficult position trying to pay for the "stuff" God never approved of. Then when they lose that "stuff" they say God didn't provide. This is a very perverse way of understanding God's word. His grace is sufficient; Where sin is grace does much more abound. Not church speak. Scripture. You can't pick and choose what you like and don't like. Proper interpretation is not to determine what it means to you, just simply what it says. I am troubled that you really may not know Christ, based on your lack of faith in His ability. I do not know your heart, but He does. I pray that He knows you as one of His.

"The point is "church speak" is not necessarily the same as "the Word of God."

I agree completely, BBC. I'm not sure what WD meant in his reply, but I did not take this as you mocking me. If everyone in this blog gave cheerfully and not grudgingly, this blog wouldn't exist.

"And by the way pastor, "word of God" is not what you say, or what you say the bible says, it is what I read in my bible."

Not sure I agree, but I might. Are you saying the Word of God is what you read it to mean, or are you saying that the Word of God means exactly what it says regardless of either of our interpretation? Just curious on what you mean.

"By his stripes we are healed." That is why we don't have any hospitals or funeral parlors. Amen with the church speak!

Are you saying God doesn't have the power to heal? And, by the way, you do know who He is talking to here, don't you? All of God's children are healed by the stripes of Christ when He saves them from sin. Surely, if you are a student of His word, you know that.

Oh, I forgot, it doesn't really mean that. I need my pastor/man of god to tell me what it really means.

Your welcome. :)

"Go sell everything you have and give to the poor, THEN come, follow me." Okay, that NT teaching, directly from Jesus' mouth, does NOT apply to us. But Malachi 3:10 does. wink, wink. You tell em pastors.

Are you saying that you are not willing to sell all that you have to follow Christ? I pray you are that devoted. Surely you know that is what He meant in this scripture.

Mock me all you want, my friend. You are free to believe what you want to believe. I pray you understand what these scriptures are really saying and you just are trying to be clever. Not working. You really are making yourself out to look like a person that has a disdain for the church.

Concerned….said, “Believe me, speaking God's Word was left off of this blog a long time ago. God has never forsaken one of His, nor has He left them "begging for bread". I guess the question is, "Are you one of His?" If so, He never left you even in the midst of your darkest hour. How do you like that "church speak"?”----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, when someone such as yourself, asks I quite often present an exert from God’s word that I think applies and then I request discussion. My request is almost always either ignored or I am given a back of the hand response without the other person addressing the issue.

Reading your “begging for bread” comment and hearing MB’s comment about never seeing a thither go bankrupt brought this to mind:

Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind [Deuteronomy 6:5]; and your neighbor as yourself [Leviticus 19:18]."He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live."But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"Jesus then replied with a story:Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?"He said, "He who showed mercy on him."Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

Concerned….said, “Believe me, speaking God's Word was left off of this blog a long time ago. God has never forsaken one of His, nor has He left them "begging for bread". I guess the question is, "Are you one of His?" If so, He never left you even in the midst of your darkest hour. How do you like that "church speak"?”----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, when someone such as yourself, asks I quite often present an exert from God’s word that I think applies and then I request discussion. My request is almost always either ignored or I am given a back of the hand response without the other person addressing the issue.

Reading your “begging for bread” comment and hearing MB’s comment about never seeing a thither go bankrupt brought this to mind:

Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind [Deuteronomy 6:5]; and your neighbor as yourself [Leviticus 19:18]."He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live."But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"Jesus then replied with a story:Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?"He said, "He who showed mercy on him."Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

You are quite right I have never seen a person in America truly “begging for bread” but I have seen and tried to comfort many people, including thithers, who “fell among robbers” and if you are looking you see them too. But, if like the priest and the Levite, you choose not to see then you too will walk right by without seeing.

Now, as a pastor, I am certain you spend a great deal of your time helping those who “fell among robbers” or at least I hope you do. So I am certain that if you really think about your comment you know of many dear brothers and sisters who are “begging for bread.”

You may ask, do I agree with WD on everything? No. Is WD unfair? Some times. In particular, it makes me very angry when he goes after Jim Whitmire because I have known and served under Jim Whitmire for over 30 years.

But WD is a wounded brother who cares deeply and has concerns that are not being addressed by SBC leadership. Likewise, I have talked to other SBC pastors and leaders who are very concerned about the direction the denomination is headed but they simply will not speak out knowing they will be immediately condemned and ostracized by the “in” crows.

I can find no scriptural basis for retaliation, condemnation or ostracism as is happening among so many of our churches today.

We are all concerned. Most, if not all, have been grievously affected by the changes that are characterized by the rise of the Church, Inc., that places preacher or the leadership as being more important than the members of the church.

You’ll excuse me if I believe what my pastor says, “This is your church, I am just the pastor. The church is the members’ I am only here to serve you.” To me this is the right relationship of church to pastor.

I, for one, welcome your comments and discussion.

Blogger does not seem to like me so if my comments appear more than once please forgive me.

"You’ll excuse me if I believe what my pastor says, “This is your church, I am just the pastor. The church is the members’ I am only here to serve you.” To me this is the right relationship of church to pastor."

I totally agree with your pastor. He sounds very wise. From the beginning of my interjection into this blog, I have made it crystal clear that I am not a MB apologist. I am not here to determine who is right or wrong. I am, from the depths of my heart, begging for the hate to stop. I am concerned the bitterness that has engulfed WD is going to kill him spiritually. Thank you for your kindness. I am concerned. Love should be coming out of the hearts of believers not bitterness. As long as humans are involved in Kingdom work, there will be problems. There was in Biblical days, and there still are today. When (and if) this problem is resolved, there will be another problem right behind it. When are we, as the body of Christ, going to learn to "turn the other cheek"? When are we going to love those who use us? I am not saying turn a blind eye. I am saying allow Christ to lead in problem resolution. He is really good at it. If MB is guilty of what they say he is, then he should be dealt with by the church. If the church refuses, go to another church to serve. WD, if you experienced character assassination, are you answering by the OT mentality of "an eye for an eye", or are you using the lesson of grace? Forgiveness is something that comes naturally to a believer. The flesh wants vengence, yet the Holy Spirit that lives within us draws us to forgiveness. I know. Church speak. Forgive me. I am a pastor. There are a few on this blog, based on many of their comments, I truly feel has been placed here by the enemy to try to compound the confusion and anger. Whoever you are, God is bigger than you, and in Christ, I do not fear you nor am I in the least intimidated by you. You know who you are. And, no WD, I do not consider you one of them, not that what I think really matters.

WD-I really believe you desire to be used in a productive way by God. I even believe you feel that this blog is productive. Guess what? It still can be. Do you forgive MB? Do you forgive the people on the disciplinary committee that ousted you? Are you willing to move on for Christ? Please don't say "when MB is gone." I pray you will not let one man keep you from the joy of God's service. God bless you.

"So I am certain that if you really think about your comment you know of many dear brothers and sisters who are “begging for bread.”

Actually, I don't. Yes, many do fall among robbers and thieves, and, yes, many times the robbers and thieves are in the church. But begging gives the inclination that there is no hope. God never said that we would not have difficult times. In Christ, however, a Christian is always reminded of the hope we have in Him. So, no, I have never seen one of God's children "begging" as one who has no hope. By the way. In the parable of you used, the man that fell among thieves was never called a begger.

Concerned - I am not bitter. This blog is not hate. I am a happy, hard-working Christian father and husband and friend and son and uncle. I love Jesus Christ. I am a blogger who blogs about issues that are harming the church of Christ. I have a perspective that many people don't, and this compels me to do what I do. I don't hate Mac Brunson. I don't hate anyone at the church. I don't hate pastors. I love pastors. I know many pastors and love them. I hate what some pastors are doing to our churches and to Christians, and I will not shut up and I won't be intimidated by pastors coming here to bash me.

Right now I am in the middle of a very difficult legal struggle over first amendment rights and my blog and what the church leaders and my sheriffi's office and state attorney's office did to violate my first amendment rights. It is quite stressful, but am committed to standing for what is right, at great risk. But through the legal struggle, I am happy, my wife is happy, we love each other and our kids, and we love the Lord. We have many friends still there, in fact we have made new friends at FBC Jax in the last couple of years since we left.

I am doing the work of a Christian and an American, not of Satan. How sad that I even have to say that.

It is sad that pastors like yourself have to make accusations that I am bitter, that I am doing the work of Satan, that I am dying spiritually, etc. etc. But I'm used to that, I was used to it as I had my blog anonymously for 2 years, I was used to it when Brunson called me a sociopath, and when the former judge called me a coward and lied about me to my congregation in his deacon's resolution. So your words here are just more of the same. But brother, I understand. Perhaps it is the only way that some pastors can process what is going on in our convention, to demonize those who are vocal, persistant, visible critics. But that won't shut me up.

Concerned said, “So, no, I have never seen one of God's children "begging" as one who has no hope.”

I agree with you that God’s children always have hope but I disagree that a beggar has no hope. The beggars I know are the most hopeful people I know. It takes a great deal of hope to approach complete strangers and beg. They never stop asking, people who have lost hope stop asking. In addition, I also said I have never seen anyone in America truly have to beg for bread but I also know almost no Americans tithe at 10%.

Concerned said, “By the way. In the parable of you used, the man that fell among thieves was never called a beggar.”

Are you sure, you are a pastor and not a lawyer? (That is meant to be funny)

First, I see a beggar as a person in need and in that sense the person that fell among the thieves is in need. I guess the comeback to your observation is that the verse does not say that he is not a beggar.

Second, the point I am trying to make is there is nothing magic about the arbitrary 10% figure almost all preachers preach as an eleventh commandment. Everyone is subject to falling among thieves and being left bruised and bleeding and in need, (begging) on the side of the road. Personally, I have known several tithers who have gone bankrupt. Therefore, from my point of view, if a preacher gets up and testifies that he has never seen a tither go bankrupt he is like either the priest or the Pharisee or just telling a preacher’s story.

Finally, WD may or may not be bitter; I simply do not know him. Given the way he and family were treated, can you really blame him? Where is the love from the church leadership? Doesn’t the way he was treated seem arbitrary and heavy handed?

Thank you for your considered responses and may God’s blessing be upon you.

"But I'm used to that, I was used to it as I had my blog anonymously for 2 years, I was used to it when Brunson called me a sociopath, and when the former judge called me a coward and lied about me to my congregation in his deacon's resolution. So your words here are just more of the same. But brother, I understand. Perhaps it is the only way that some pastors can process what is going on in our convention, to demonize those who are vocal, persistant, visible critics. But that won't shut me up."

These comments are pretty strong evidence of bitterness. I understand the human reaction to being mistreated is to retaliate and become bitter to the offenders. I am not demonizing you, however, I am concerned about your actions. I honestly believe this blog would be more productive if you used it to discuss the good in the work of God. And, yes, there is good going on. I don't like it when preachers create their own "little kingdom". I do not believe that is biblcial at all. I would just rather spend my time honoring the goodness of God through the faithfulness of many instead of focusing my attention on the negative. We will never stop the negative. You have yet to give a reason as to why you will not transform this blog to a blog of worship as opposed to a blog of revenge. By the way, I have no interest in shutting you up. I would just like to see your speech declare the glory of Christ as opposed to the fallacy of man.

"The men of my church are doing a bible study on Radical by David Platt. http://www.radicalthebook.com/

I wonder if this book will be sold in the FBC bookstore?"

Great book. I think it is quite interesting that David Platt is going to be a part of the Pastor's conference in January. Just an interesting note.

New,Sorry I am little slow when people just use initials. I am not necessarily against “HUGE” salaries, I just think churches should lead the way when it comes to being financially forthcoming and lagging far behind. “Huge” is rather relative isn’t it? I mean is that huge as in relation to old BBC or as in relation to JP huge? Appreciate you brother have a great day!

With all due respect, instead of trying to police this blog, why don't you go start your own blog if you don't like the direction of the discussions on this one? I just love it (not really) when someone thinks it's his place to tell someone else what the "purpose" of his blog should be. It's a blog. That's short for "personal weblog." Key word there being "personal."

"With all due respect, instead of trying to police this blog, why don't you go start your own blog if you don't like the direction of the discussions on this one? I just love it (not really) when someone thinks it's his place to tell someone else what the "purpose" of his blog should be. It's a blog. That's short for "personal weblog." Key word there being "personal.""

Wow!!!! Not sure there was any respect there, so obviously you thought none was due. That's fine. I am not trying to police this blog. As I have stated in the past, I stumbled upon this blog. I do not "blog" as much as I'm sure most of you do. Sorry for my blogging immaturity. Since when is trying to give sound Biblical advice "policeing". You sound a little snippy there. I don't care to start a blog. I preach 3 times a week. I am drawn back here (maybe wrongly) because I am dumbfounded by the rhetoric on this "blog". By the way. If you sin in you "personal" time, is it still sin?

I am not here to argue. Just looking for some "solid" answers. Is it any of my business. I don't know. I guess I need to find out why I keep coming back to this site.

I think we can all agree what our "purpose" is as Christians. Not much of that is being accomplished on this site. Doesn't scripture tell us what our purpose is? Does that include "personal weblogs", or are those excluded?

"It's not a "blog of revenge" just because you label it as such. Stop the silly games.

Let me throw it back to you. How many people have you "won to Christ" this week?"

Seriously? If it is not revenge then what is this blogs intention? You can't say information, because there is no new information on here that people that "need to know" (with an emphasis on the "need to know" part) don't already know. It is about people's opinion on matters. We all know the value of our opinions. I don't believe that trying to lead someone to the love of Christ and to serve faithfully in that love is silly. But then again, that's just me. Or is it?

Not sure if anyone has come to Christ this week due to the seed I have sown. Not sure we really ever know that question. It always depends on the preparation of the ground the seed lands on. One thing I do know, however, is the quality of the seed I have sown. Also, we are certain through scripture that we will reap what we sow. Thank you for your concern. With all due respect.

Concerned,I think most of who post here regularly share your desires but far too many come here filled with righteous indignation and just drop their bombs and leave and never contribute to the discussion. They, for whatever reason, simply want to condemn and taunt and not offer anything beneficial. This, in turn, tempts and leads us to be at times cynical and equally uncaring.

In you, however, I sense what you represent yourself as, “Concerned,” which is why I express my appreciation for your posts.

What are your questions and I will be glad to address your concerns as best I can. Hopefully the rest will do the same. To me, open communication, even bad communication, is better than no communication at all.

These comments are pretty strong evidence of bitterness. I understand the human reaction to being mistreated is to retaliate and become bitter to the offenders. I am not demonizing you, however, I am concerned about your actions. I honestly believe this blog would be more productive if you used it to discuss the good in the work of God....You have yet to give a reason as to why you will not transform this blog to a blog of worship as opposed to a blog of revenge. By the way, I have no interest in shutting you up. I would just like to see your speech declare the glory of Christ as opposed to the fallacy of man."

Concerned pastor, the only thing that causes me bitterness is pastors like yourself who believe they are bitterness detectors of those who say things that don't cast them and their profession in a totally positive light - and then they come here and tell me I'm bitter. That causes some bitterness. But the bitterness doesn't last long, as it turns to appreciation that they are reading my blog, a bit of sadness for them, and then I realize it all confirms my blog's purpose.

The blog doesn't highlight the positives because that is not quite needed these days. It is called healthy dissent and discussion. Besides, mega churches have media professionals and consultants that get that message out. This blog has no consultants, no seminary degrees, is not asking anyone to give their money. It is here to speak primarily to lay people in mega churches, like I used to be. And it also speaks to pastors, so they can see what NOT to do in their churches. So God is using this blog, whether you like it or not. Amen? Amen!

Mock me all you want, my friend. You are free to believe what you want to believe. I pray you understand what these scriptures are really saying and you just are trying to be clever. Not working. You really are making yourself out to look like a person that has a disdain for the church.

October 6, 2010 6:17 PM___________________________________

I have no disdain for "the church", but I do have disdain for pastors who twist scripture and take it out of context to fit their interpretation and limited application of it. And yes, I am truly "one of His" and he has given me discernment to see the abuses going on in the pulpits by those who would twist his word for profit and gain.

Most people have gotten themselves in such a financial mess by not being good stewards, not giving obediently, and living to please selfish desires, that when hard times do come, they find themselves in a difficult position trying to pay for the "stuff" God never approved of.___________________________________

Pastor - you are WRONG! And biased and sad. "Most people" have financial problems due to lost jobs, illness or health concerns. LOOK IT UP!

Furthermore, does God "approve" of Holy Land trips by rich members instead of giving to the poor? Does he approve of nepotism and millionaire preachers?

Your assumption that most people can't give more only because they are poor stewards is really sickening. No wonder pastors have as much credibility as used car salesmen. (no offense to our hardworking used car sales people.)

By his stripes we are healed." That is why we don't have any hospitals or funeral parlors. Amen with the church speak!

Are you saying God doesn't have the power to heal? And, by the way, you do know who He is talking to here, don't you? ___________________________________

Pastor - it says "by his stripes we are healed." That is what it says! I didn't say God doesn't have power to heal. Why would you ask such a question anyway? You are so quick to accuse me of saying something else just for asking a question.

If I need healing, can I not trust that simple, direct, non-confusing statement, that I am healed? Or does it not mean what it clearly says and I need a paid professional to tell me what it really means?

When it said "bring the whole tithe into the storehouse" did it mean that? Or was that only to those who brought food and grain to the Levitical priests so that the poor could have food? Are we to eat money that is brought to a local church now instead? Hmmm. Sometimes it means what it says, other times it doesn't.

Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you can not be born again. Hmmm. Go ahead pastor, I know you can explain that to me. But do you get my point? It is not always as clear as it seems and bullies can twist it and abuse it to get people to bring tithes and to drink blood.

Wish - Thank you for your kind words. I guess my biggest question is not necessarily "what happened" to cause such despair, but why do God's people let the little situations going on in our little lives hinder us from following the "Big" commission? I really want WD to shut down this blog because it sows discontentment among God's people. What if someone that just received Christ through the ministries of FBC Jax stumbled upon this site? Will they be encouraged to grow in Him? Will they see the joy in God's service? Will this help disciple them? Or, should they just hurry and click off before they become discouraged and disgruntled like WD? I would recommend the later. The problem is, if they find this darkness, the damage will already have been done. This worries me. There is absolutely zero need for something like this within the Kingdom. Again, most people here do not seem to have righteous motives (although, I admit, I cannot determine motives, just like everyone else on this site). I do not feel this site exists to "out" charlatans. What this site really reveals is the flesh aspect of believers, which never is good.

WD - I have counseled many people like yourself. Your problem is that you can't look beyond your hurt to see the hurt that you are causing. I know you don't like that, and you probably don't like me. The truth hurts. It cuts through us. We all have faults, and it is very human of us to get very defensive when we are confronted with them. I do not feel it is my place to "change" you. I couldn't do that if I tried. I have tried to stop coming to this site, because I know that my voice is not wanted here (let me thank you for posting my comments) but for some reason I keep ending up here. Is it possible that God has placed someone on my heart who I don't know to pray for and try to encourage? Maybe, I am not sure yet. Just in case, I am praying for you and pray you find peace. The kind of peace that leads to forgiveness. The kind of peace that allows you to move on in your life. The kind of peace that will lead you to positive Kingdom work. In Christ, from the bottom of my heart, I am deeply concerned for you. I am confused about the situation because I don't know you. I have gone to bed at night with this situation burdening my heart.

"The blog doesn't highlight the positives because that is not quite needed these days. It is called healthy dissent and discussion."

There is never a need to put on public display the negatives. This discussion is with out a doubt some of the most unhealthy I have ever been a part of.

"And it also speaks to pastors, so they can see what NOT to do in their churches."

Unfortunately, you are not in the position to be determining what and what NOT pastors are to do in the church. It is the responsibility of the pastor to close their physical ears off to the disgruntled members and open their spiritual ears to discern the leadership of the Holy Spirit. Like I said in an earlier post, there is no room in the Trinity, so you need not apply.

I don't know where to start in responding to your comments. You have "counseled people like me", you say. Really, like what? You claim to know of my "hurt" or my circumstances. Pal, you don't know me, and you're reading me wrong. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

More sickening cliche' church speak from you: "you can't look beyond the hurt." What the heck does that mean? That is just poppycock. I have experienced what I have experienced, and am moving on and doing what I'm called to do.

My position of why this blog exists and the value of this blog has been explained and defended.

Your position - that this blog should be shut down, it breeds dissention and disgruntlement, that pastors should shut "close their ears to disgruntled members"...it is all so far off base, that I won't even try to take this further. Your own explanations make my points, and I can't really add anything to it.

Thank you for the encouragement and confirmation that this blog is needed.

I really want WD to shut down this blog because it sows discontentment among God's people. What if someone that just received Christ through the ministries of FBC Jax stumbled upon this site? Will they be encouraged to grow in Him?__________________________________

What sows discontentment, sir...brace yourself since I know your mind might have trouble getting a handle on this...what sows discontent is pastors that use the trusted position of pastor to use scripture to enrich themselves (Brunson), hire their families(Brunson), prey on young boys (Long), molest children(Gray), have sex with women they counsel(Gilyard) and live in the lap of luxury (too many to list) while constantly beating the sheep for more money and more "obedience."

That, sir, is why the "church" is in such bad shape. Pastors. Not the laymen. And certainly not this blog.

And I would hope that the millions who are lost and discouraged by these men will stumble upon this blog and realize that we Christians are also fed up with this nonsense and are speaking up about it and have not abandoned our faith.

Concerned Pastor wrote: "WD - I have counseled many people like yourself. Your problem is that you can't look beyond your hurt to see the hurt that you are causing."

THAT ADVICE IS MORE FITTING OF MAC BRUNSON THAN OF THE WD.

I know you don't like that, and you probably don't like me.

WRONG. WE DON'T DISLIKE YOU FOR DISAGREEING WITH US. PASTORS ARE THE ONES THAT DO THAT.

The truth hurts. It cuts through us. We all have faults, and it is very human of us to get very defensive when we are confronted with them.

AMEN. JUST LOOK HOW MAC BRUNSON REACTED TO ONE BLOGGER WHO CRITICIZED HIM.

I do not feel it is my place to "change" you. I couldn't do that if I tried.

AMEN"! NOR CAN WD CHANGE YOU WITH THE TRUTH OF THIS BLOG.

I have tried to stop coming to this site, because I know that my voice is not wanted here (let me thank you for posting my comments) but for some reason I keep ending up here.

YOUR VOICE HAS BEEN HEARD HER BEFORE FROM OTHERS AND THEIR VIEWS HAVE BEEN FOUND WANTING, LIKE YOURS.

Is it possible that God has placed someone on my heart who I don't know to pray for and try to encourage?

MAYBE IT IS YOUR OWN HEART GOD IS TRYING TO REACH. WAKE UP AND BE ENLIGHTENED AS TO WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING AND HOW YOU ARE WRONGLY APPLYING IT SO YOU CAN HAVE A SALARY AND BUILD BUILDINGS AND PAY OVERHEAD EXPENSES.

"There is never a need to put on public display the negatives. This discussion is with out a doubt some of the most unhealthy I have ever been a part of."

ARE YOU FOR REAL? PUBLICLY DISCUSSING THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AND LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY BY ABUSIVE MILLIONAIRE CEO PASTORS IS NEVER NEEDED. DISCUSSING SEXUAL ABUSERS AND CHARLATANS IS NOT NEEDED TO WARN OTHERS THAT MIGHT BE LOOKING FOR A HEALTHY CHURCH HOME?

Unfortunately, you are not in the position to be determining what and what NOT pastors are to do in the church.

WHO THEN, WILL GOD USE TO KEEP ABUSERS, THE WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHINGS HE WARNS US ABOUT, ACCOUNTABLE. IT IS OUR JOB. HOMER LINDSAY TAUGHT US TO CHECK EVERYTHING THE PREACHER SAYS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD AND TO BE FRUIT INSPECTORS. THE FRUIT OF BRUNSON, LONG, GAINES, GRAY, GILYARD AND THE LIKE STINKS!

It is the responsibility of the pastor to close their physical ears off to the disgruntled members and open their spiritual ears to discern the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

BOY THEY SURE DO THAT WELL.

Like I said in an earlier post, there is no room in the Trinity, so you need not apply.

NOR SHOULD YOU. AND HOPEFULLY YOU ARE NOT SO TWISTED TO THINK THAT YOU OR ANY PASTOR WILL DO THE SPEAKING FOR THE TRINITY IN OUR LIVES. PREACH THE WORD, PASTOR. SAVE THE CHURCH SPEAK AND BS FOR YOUR CONGREGATION. IT CAN'T CARRY THE DAY HERE.

Concerned Pastor wrote: "WD - I have counseled many people like yourself. Your problem is that you can't look beyond your hurt to see the hurt that you are causing."

THAT ADVICE IS MORE FITTING OF MAC BRUNSON THAN OF THE WD.

I know you don't like that, and you probably don't like me.

WRONG. WE DON'T DISLIKE YOU FOR DISAGREEING WITH US. PASTORS ARE THE ONES THAT DO THAT.

The truth hurts. It cuts through us. We all have faults, and it is very human of us to get very defensive when we are confronted with them.

AMEN. JUST LOOK HOW MAC BRUNSON REACTED TO ONE BLOGGER WHO CRITICIZED HIM.

I do not feel it is my place to "change" you. I couldn't do that if I tried.

AMEN"! NOR CAN WD CHANGE YOU WITH THE TRUTH OF THIS BLOG.

I have tried to stop coming to this site, because I know that my voice is not wanted here (let me thank you for posting my comments) but for some reason I keep ending up here.

YOUR VOICE HAS BEEN HEARD HERE BEFORE FROM OTHERS AND THEIR VIEWS HAVE BEEN FOUND WANTING, LIKE YOURS.

Is it possible that God has placed someone on my heart who I don't know to pray for and try to encourage?

MAYBE IT IS YOUR OWN HEART GOD IS TRYING TO REACH. WAKE UP AND BE ENLIGHTENED AS TO WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING AND HOW YOU ARE WRONGLY APPLYING IT SO YOU CAN HAVE A SALARY AND BUILD BUILDINGS AND PAY OVERHEAD EXPENSES.

"There is never a need to put on public display the negatives. This discussion is with out a doubt some of the most unhealthy I have ever been a part of."

ARE YOU FOR REAL? PUBLICLY DISCUSSING THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AND LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY BY ABUSIVE MILLIONAIRE CEO PASTORS IS NEVER NEEDED. DISCUSSING SEXUAL ABUSERS AND CHARLATANS IS NOT NEEDED TO WARN OTHERS THAT MIGHT BE LOOKING FOR A HEALTHY CHURCH HOME?

Unfortunately, you are not in the position to be determining what and what NOT pastors are to do in the church.

WHO THEN, WILL GOD USE TO KEEP ABUSERS, THE WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHINGS HE WARNS US ABOUT, ACCOUNTABLE. IT IS OUR JOB. HOMER LINDSAY TAUGHT US TO CHECK EVERYTHING THE PREACHER SAYS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD AND TO BE FRUIT INSPECTORS. THE FRUIT OF BRUNSON, LONG, GAINES, GRAY, GILYARD AND THE LIKE STINKS!

It is the responsibility of the pastor to close their physical ears off to the disgruntled members and open their spiritual ears to discern the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

BOY THEY SURE DO THAT WELL.

Like I said in an earlier post, there is no room in the Trinity, so you need not apply.

NOR SHOULD YOU. AND HOPEFULLY YOU ARE NOT SO TWISTED TO THINK THAT YOU OR ANY PASTOR WILL DO THE SPEAKING FOR THE TRINITY IN OUR LIVES. PREACH THE WORD, PASTOR. SAVE THE CHURCH SPEAK AND BS FOR YOUR CONGREGATION. IT CAN'T CARRY THE DAY HERE.

WD - I do not claim to know your hurt or circumstances. I do, however, counsel people who have similarly been hurt by the church, but you are right, I do not know you or your circumstances.

""you can't look beyond the hurt." What the heck does that mean? "

I'm sure you know what it means, and that is why it strikes such a cord with you.

"and am moving on and doing what I'm called to do."

That is the problem is that you are not moving on. If you were, you would let it go. You can't because you have yet to inflict the same hurt that you felt. And, I'm sorry, there is NO WAY God has called you to do what you are doing. You can't justify creating an environment that sets out to totally destroy the service of Pastors. It also brings out devients like the one who claims to be a "concerned layman". I doubt the title.

"It also brings out devients like the one who claims to be a "concerned layman". I doubt the title."

SO NOW THIS LOVING PASTOR SHEPHERD IS CALLING ME A DEVIANT, AND MISSPELLING IT AT THAT. I REST MY CASE. ANOTHER PASTOR THAT CAN'T CARRY THE DAY IN THE ARENA OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE. GO BACK TO YOUR GULLIBLE FLOCK. I AM SURE THEY REALLY LOVE YOU.

For all those that might "stumble across this blog and be discouraged", please note that it is those like "concerned pastor" that come here and call others a "deviant" for questioning their views. They are why this blog exists. To expose them! No wonder they mostly post anonymously. We don't call them names, but they are quick to use words like sociopath and deviant to describe Christian laymen who question them. They just can't engage in healthy debate without diagnosing your mental and spiritual help and offering to pray for you and telling you they are deeply concerned for you.

Stay away from pastors like that. How do you tell which ones are true pastors and which ones are abusers? Simply listen to what they want to accomplish. Do they want your money or not? Do they want to build a new building? Do they want your obedience and service in their church building?

Do they call people sociopaths and deviants that they have never met?

Or do they want to minister to you and others without getting paid to do it?

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About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"