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If you want to get technical we were discussing the mystery genre not the overall series. But sure, as you wish. Musoka, if you wish to continue that debate I suppose we would have to do it over at the other thread. I get your points though, just disagree about the whydunit argument. Outside of that, I'm fine with it.

As for discussing episode 8 itself, I think that my biggest problems with it come down to the fact that episode 7 was basically entirely meaningless. Will, Lion and Erika(to a lesser degree) just showing up felt wrong. Yes I know that Erika had an excuse, they consider her part of the game and all. But seriously, all that talk about Lion being Beatrice's chance at a happy ending was just useless.

I did like the Erika scenes though. She felt like a more likable and clever character than before.

EP7 wasn't entirely meaningless in the scope of EP8. The Tea Party of EP7 was entirely meaningless in the scope of EP8.

Think of it this way.

If EP7 had left off with Will and Lion quietly exiting the chapel, content in their knowledge of putting Beatrice to a beautiful, peaceful rest--the kind of rest she had longed for--and then cut to a crying six year old Ange to show that we still had some loose ends to wrap up, there would be absolutely no problem with how EP8 ended up.

Doing things like that allows for the following things that EP8 did:

1. The ending we saw for Will and Lion in EP7 was too cruel. If they had just exited the chapel, there wouldn't have been any sense of lost catharsis in their situation. We would have been able to fully accept them as honorable guests borrowed from another game board without that disconnect between how we were left with them in EP7 and how they're acting in EP8.

2. Bern's attitude. Before the Tea Party, we see Bern as sardonic, but pretty disinterested party. She mocks the entire proceedings, but isn't emotionally invested in it herself. The Tea Party shows how deep her loathing runs and how horrible her vengeance on Beatrice really is. Not only that, but she emerges from that utterly victorious. EP8 never addresses that and thus that's another level in which catharsis isn't reached by the reader.
Allowing her to exit the stage the way she did in EP7 without the Tea Party makes her role in EP8 as a "heartless but ultimately inconsequential" villain make more sense. She's doing these things for her own reason (Featherinne asking her to) and enjoys being mean, but it really is just a story to her.

3. There is a difference between leaving Beatrice dissolved into snow in a beautiful burial ceremony and leaving her on a lonely stage with her guts ripped out. Even if you think Beatrice is no longer around to witness that level of cruelty--and Bern's words do leave that in doubt--we, the readers witnessed all of it and want it to be addressed. There is satisfaction in Battler punching Bern in the face, but it doesn't allow catharsis for this situation, because that's not his motivation for doing it.
It's like watching a movie where the villain stabs a child in the heart and then escapes from the police, only to be hit by a car several weeks later in a completely unrelated incident. We want to see people punished for the crimes they commit, not just punished in general.

- Ange feels transported back to the skyscraper where she first met Bern. Bern tells her if she is capable of reaching this truth. She says that sometimes the truth you finally get might do something different to you than you initially believed. She says Ange doesn't have the right to request the truth. She begins to ask herself if she really possesses the resolution to accept the truth, no matter what it may be.

You missed an important point here, I think, although one most have guessed by now .

Spoiler for The truth of Bern's broken red text in ep. 7 revealed...:

Ange gets mad at Bern for showing her the horrible kakera where her parents are the culprits and declaring it to be true in red.

Bern counters that she did NOT say this to be true in red, but rather that Ange cut her off when she screamed. What she was going to say was, "this is all...not necessarily true..." (yeah, the sentence cut-off doesn't parse into English cleanly, but it's more or less what everyone had guessed about that bit of interrupted red text). She then goes on to say that she was "testing" Ange to see if she was really ready to handle the truth or not.

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Yeah but I think I'd rather not make that section of the summary more confusing considering the dynamic of their conversation on the rooftop, so since people likely figured it out already in Ep7 I think I'll leave it out.

Also for everyone else I'm taking a breather today from summarizing, since this has been the quickest pace of work I've done since episode 5 and yeah it really is rather mentally taxing. I'll be back to it tomorrow since I get off classes early. Hope you guys understand.

Thank you for saying this. I absolutely loved EP8 and have been rather frustrated with this internet hate spiral towards it. You just said everything I wanted to but just couldn't find the right way to express. This. Just. This.

Yeah but I think I'd rather not make that section of the summary more confusing considering the dynamic of their conversation on the rooftop, so since people likely figured it out already in Ep7 I think I'll leave it out.

Also for everyone else I'm taking a breather today from summarizing, since this has been the quickest pace of work I've done since episode 5 and yeah it really is rather mentally taxing. I'll be back to it tomorrow since I get off classes early. Hope you guys understand.

Good work so far, I've just been pacing you for a while so I thought I'd chip in. I do think it's important to mention it here though if not in the summary since there seem to be a few folks in the hating-but-haven't-read-it-yet crowd who think this point is not answered by R07.

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Thank you for saying this. I absolutely loved EP8 and have been rather frustrated with this internet hate spiral towards it. You just said everything I wanted to but just couldn't find the right way to express. This. Just. This.

How to avoid the hate spiral? Accept the fact that Umineko is fantasy.

The funniest part of all of this is that the "Battler is the ultimate narcissist and every character is just an aspect of his own ego" is now vaguely supportable by textual evidence. If you can accept nothing else, embrace the joke theory.

MetaWorld Hall
- People are still discussing her game. Battler asks if Erika and Ange are coming. She says they should be here in a moment. Beato and Battler look forward to meeting Erika again. They say it's impressive she found a way to give another angle tot he murder that excludes Battler's family.
- Lambda is surprised Bern would release Ange so easily. She feels disappointed at Bern.
- Genji tells them that Ange has returned. Beato and Battler greet her. Ange says that she was given tea at Bern's place while she waited. Ange is rather quiet and passive.
- He decides not not bug her. Beato says perhaps she feels bad because Bern's tea wasn't very good. Ange asks to speak with Battler alone. He asks Beato to respect their privacy.
- Ange claims she understands Battler and how he was cheating her. She says this was all a farce from him. She demands the truth yet again. She refuses all this sugar-coated events and says that he's lying to her. Everyone else looks at them stunned.
- Battler says that the truth is sealed in the box and that she cannot open it. He says all he wanted was for her to remember the good times she had with her family. Ange continues to throw a fit.
- Ange says she thanks Eva for all she's done, but now she wants to know the truth. She wants to see Eva's diary. Eva refuses but Ange says the red had declared the diary to be true.
- Beato asks who used the red. Lambda and Bern confirm that Featherine had confirmed it in red. Ange continues to throw a fit and changes to her adult form as golden butterflies appear. She says she will fight Beato for the truth. Ange warps in Eva-Beatrice. Eva-Beatrice says she will reveal everything and warps in a bottle containing the kakera. She smashes it and disappears with Bern.
- Battler and Beato realize it is the kakera they're in, and the kakera begins to collapse. Everyone looks outside and sees the world change. The kakera fragments begin to shake as the seven sisters of purgatory ready themselves for combat,
- Goats appear from the fragments. The siestas prepare for combat as well. They are unable to detect the accurate presence of the enemies. Battler says that the goats aren't under him nor Beato.
- Gaap and Virgilia say they may be outsiders. Battler, Dlanor and Will say these may be the wills of those in the future attempting to seize the truth by any means necessary. Beato says these are the wild and infinitely diverse imaginations of those trying to figure out what the truth of Rokkenjima is. In turn, the wills of those who speculate on the real fate of Rokkenjima are allowed entry into the kakera to get the real truth behind everything.
- The Battle of the Golden Land begins.

I'll end part III page here. Next up will be the Battle of the Golden Land (or the catbox if you want to call it).

Finished. Has anyone posted the "underwater" scroll (and/or translation) from the scene with Beato and Battler in the boat? I thought I saw it somewhere but heck if I can find it lately.

I think I played the larger chunk of it all day today. I'm pretty happy with it overall and am looking forward to playing Tsubasa later. I'm not sure I'm satisfied with the mystery elements as-is (yeah, still want that peek into the cat-box or need to work it out more), but the conclusion still works for me and certainly was satisfying from the fantasy angle at least from my perspective. It's been a heck of a ride.

Spoiler for random quotes I noted today:

"Kindly go and be consumed by this roaring vortex of truth, shades of 1986!"

"There were no words for what exceeded imagination.
Then in a flash of inspiration, he settled on 'universe'.
With each exchange between Lamdadelta and Bernkastel, a universe was born between the two.
A Big Bang occured, creating new space filled with galaxies, only to disappear again.
And after each universe-ending Big Crunch, another Big Bang would follow in the next moment and a universe is reborn anew.
It was like the playtime of the gods."

"Ah, the Sea of Fragments is vast..."
"Ghost in the Shell."
"We'll meet again someday."
"Until the next When the Whatever Cry."
"Oh that's good. Let's go with that."

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