should be on a 2 min cooldown imo, paladin's divine favor and rogue's cold blood is on 2min and it ensures 100% crit chance for your next attack

Lol, you're seriously trying to argue that Juggernaut is overpowered by comparing it to the Paladin class - the class whose melee DPS tree is producing such ridiculous burst, without effects like Juggernaut's 100% crit chance, that it's off the charts?

Please.

Juggernaut isn't overpowered at all, just as Killing Machine isn't overpowered, just as 3k crits from Corruption aren't overpowered. It's powerful, yes, but not overpowered and without it Arms Warrior damage would go back to where it was S5 - non-existant. You do realise there were only a handful of changes to Arms Warriors, right? Juggernaut is one of the biggest reasons why their damage is competitive again and without that 100% crit MS would go back to hitting like a wet noodle.

I'll agree overall the damage is perhaps a little overkill, but that's not simply down to Juggernaut and rather down to a combination of TfB and Juggernaut. In addition, while offensively Arms Warriors are pretty solid, survivability-wise they're absolutely awful, especially when compared to the two other plate dps classes (Retadins and DKs).

The only survival cooldowns of note that we have require us to equip a Shield every time, making them completely countered by Dismantle, and also meaning we can't pressure or play the class as we specced it (you know, to use a 2h?). In addition, we have no interrupt we can use reactively anymore.

Unlike Retadins and DKs, who can pop things like Glyph'd Hand of Salvation or Icebound Fort and continue to play how they specced, we have to basically turn into a Prot Tank in order to survive.

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(Arms) have just too much mobility, too much dmg, an always up healing debuff, too much CC avoidance and they can survive too well. The new charge in combat is worst than macestun.

Its more a warlock than a warrior issue,clearly we need some buffs to be able to "tank" melee.On the other hand that doesn't change the fact that warrior's damage is over the top right now.Blizzard could either nerf the dmg or mobility a bit and i believe would be close to balanced

Fun fact: Warriors can (sometimes) increase their damage in raids by not using mortal strike, because it does poor damage compared to the rest of our abilities. Obviously it's worth using in PvP regardless, because of the debuff, but without juggernaut, it'd be laughably bad.

Its more a warlock than a warrior issue,clearly we need some buffs to be able to "tank" melee.On the other hand that doesn't change the fact that warrior's damage is over the top right now.Blizzard could either nerf the dmg or mobility a bit and i believe would be close to balanced

So you think with reduced damage and mobility but no accounting for the fact we die in seconds would be balanced, even though that's essentially the same place Arms Warriors were in S5 (you know, when they were non-existent and absolutely abyssmal)?

Kk.

The two buffs Arms Warriors got were increases to damage and mobility...the two things you basically want to take away. I have no problem doing a bit less damage to low armor targets (but certainly not to high armored targets, as said damage is really bad) provided Arms and Fury specs actually got some survival buffs to compensate - active abilities that we can use to keep ourselves alive WITHOUT having to completely turtle and change playstyle.

In addition, I hate the way people misuse the word "mobility" in PvP. Mobility means the ability to move, not how many distance closers you have. While Arms Warriors can definitely zip around alot, put a Frost Mage or Resto Druid on them, or heck even a DK, and suddenly they're not so "mobile" because we have no outs from Immobilizing effects other than our main damage cooldown.

Literally, you can be Nova'd 3, 4 sometimes even 5 times in a row and have no outs whatsoever. By contrast, a Rogue usually has 3 or more outs from such effects (Combat: Vanish + Sprint + CloS, Muti/Prep: Vanishx2, CloS).

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(Arms) have just too much mobility, too much dmg, an always up healing debuff, too much CC avoidance and they can survive too well. The new charge in combat is worst than macestun.

I'm not here to cry about warriors but you're pretty retarded if you think a rogue has more mobility than you. Almost every warrior we face simply sits on my hunter and he can never get away, while a rogue can actually be perfect kited after a very short amount of time.

My opinion is make intercept initiate charge cd and make charge 15 seconds usable in combat.

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Spoiler

i like it the way it is, if only ALL arenas where like it...it's finaly a map where "Skill" is involved no hiding behind LoS, just a nice open circle. no "Ring around the rosie" as some call it with healers for 10 min. just a nice straight foward 2 min fight win or lose it's always a good fight.

My opinion is make intercept initiate charge cd and make charge 15 seconds usable in combat.

DKs would hard counter warriors, in any comp, in any match up. Other classes would be significantly harder too, including ones that have no trouble with warriors. Hunters are mediocre right now, and the solution is to help them, not cite their mediocrity as a reason for warrior nerfs.

Put intercept on a longer CD if it is really necessary, and buff the fury talent that reduces the CD so that it'd be back at 15 if you specced it (thus not having juggernaut), but to remove it completely would be awful.

So you think with reduced damage and mobility but no accounting for the fact we die in seconds would be balanced, even though that's essentially the same place Arms Warriors were in S5 (you know, when they were non-existent and absolutely abyssmal)?

Firstly i said dmg OR mobility not both and i meant by a small amount.I agree that you sucked last season and that you maybe need some more defense but only if they nerf you.Right now if you exclude the fact that you shit on walocks so hard that my opinion is kinda biased,i ve seen warriors killing fully hotted druids with barkskin during a charge(ms),bladestorm,intercept(execute) ,do unhealable dmg on rogues whithout evasion ,destroying hunters etc..That leads to the conclusion in my point of view that is overpowered right now at least against some classes and the statistics agree with me.

I'm not here to cry about warriors but you're pretty retarded if you think a rogue has more mobility than you. Almost every warrior we face simply sits on my hunter and he can never get away, while a rogue can actually be perfect kited after a very short amount of time.

My opinion is make intercept initiate charge cd and make charge 15 seconds usable in combat.

fine by me,in the same patch ret paladins,destro warlocks,rogues,death knights,priests,resto druids get nerfed.(I keep this up forever)

Last time I faced a destro lock I got 7300 confla and 8xxx chaos in the same second.

Me or my partners have been 3 shot by unholy dks plenty of times.

Rogues sit on me and force me to turtle forever,etc.

While I do think 12 sec charge is excessive,same analogies can be made for even the weakest of arena classes.I have met an enhancement shaman once in wotlk arenas but WOLVES + BL BURST SO RIDIC NERF PLX.

i ve seen warriors killing fully hotted druids with barkskin during a charge(ms),bladestorm,intercept(execute) ,do unhealable dmg on rogues whithout evasio

Druid got a cyclone/nourish overpowered, and warrior got lucky on damage. Travel form during bladestorm is probably the best thing he can do. Squishier for sure, but he'll be out of the warrior's range in 2 seconds and the next 4 seconds of bladestorm will be worthless.

I've fought 1 rogue who uses feint against bladestorm so far. One. When classes play like shit, they deserve to be killed, and rogues still counter warriors, so I don't really see why you'd mention them.

Firstly i said dmg OR mobility not both and i meant by a small amount.I agree that you sucked last season and that you maybe need some more defense but only if they nerf you.Right now if you exclude the fact that you shit on walocks so hard that my opinion is kinda biased,i ve seen warriors killing fully hotted druids with barkskin during a charge(ms),bladestorm,intercept(execute) ,do unhealable dmg on rogues whithout evasion ,destroying hunters etc..That leads to the conclusion in my point of view that is overpowered right now at least against some classes and the statistics agree with me.

Warlocks indeed shit on warlocks (and I think we're supposed to counter rogues too,that's not always the case though).The tree druid thing is just bullshit.Trees can live through everything a warrior can do to them without barkskin and without casting anything.You must be seeing bad trees.

I've fought 1 rogue who uses feint against bladestorm so far. One. When classes play like shit, they deserve to be killed, and rogues still counter warriors, so I don't really see why you'd mention them.

fine by me,in the same patch ret paladins,destro warlocks,rogues,death knights,priests,resto druids get nerfed.(I keep this up forever)

Sry to say this, but you are really terrible how you still keep this crap up and cry about warriors. We met you in arena, and you are just another spamstring (better) warrior (ye, this is coming from DK that achieved only S5 glad). Now, Warriors are back on their feet with their imba dumpa chargie charge and you still attack people when they badmouth warriors? You were doing it all the S5, wake up pls.Rgds

All i'm saying is there has to be some sort of happy medium between 25 second intercept and 12 second charge with 25 second intercept.

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Spoiler

i like it the way it is, if only ALL arenas where like it...it's finaly a map where "Skill" is involved no hiding behind LoS, just a nice open circle. no "Ring around the rosie" as some call it with healers for 10 min. just a nice straight foward 2 min fight win or lose it's always a good fight.

Sry to say this, but you are really terrible how you still keep this crap up and cry about warriors. We met you in arena, and you are just another spamstring (better) warrior (ye, this is coming from DK that achieved only S5 glad). Now, Warriors are back on their feet with their imba dumpa chargie charge and you still attack people when they badmouth warriors? You were doing it all the S5, wake up pls.Rgds

Sry to say this, but you are really terrible how you still keep this crap up and cry about warriors. We met you in arena, and you are just another spamstring (better) warrior (ye, this is coming from DK that achieved only S5 glad). Now, Warriors are back on their feet with their imba dumpa chargie charge and you still attack people when they badmouth warriors? You were doing it all the S5, wake up pls.Rgds

What are you saying exactly?I'm not attacking anyone.I'm just saying that the same "xxx is overpowered" can be said about any class,you have to look at the class as a whole.

edit: but i cant get what are you saying in this post,really.

A good change for warriors would be if they deleted imp hamstring talent and glyph ,for a reduction in both class strength as well as rng.

I'm not here to cry about warriors but you're pretty retarded if you think a rogue has more mobility than you. Almost every warrior we face simply sits on my hunter and he can never get away, while a rogue can actually be perfect kited after a very short amount of time.

My opinion is make intercept initiate charge cd and make charge 15 seconds usable in combat.

And I think you're pretty retarded if you only use your own 2v2 team as a general example to compare the mobility of different classes, then use that as a springboard to call people retarded.

So Warriors stick to your Hunter better than Rogues, have you considered the other 9 classes in the game or the myriad of comps between those classes?

Have you considered Rogue vs. Warrior mobility when fighting Frost Mages? I think you'll find that particular example is opposite to your own - Rogues come out on top by miles because Warrior distance closure is fairly pointless if you're rooted 90% of the time.

The entire point of my post that you quoted is that Warrior and Rogue mobility is different.

Rogue mobility comes from anti-CC capabilities and multiple cooldowns that can be used in quick succession at the start of games - in all honesty a skilled Rogue is nigh-impossible to stop for the first 30 seconds of an aggressively played match.

Warrior mobility comes from distance closers on short cooldowns.

I always see each class complain about the other because the grass is always greener when two classes have similar yet distinct capabilities. Warriors want Rogue's freedom from Immobilizing CC (which is probably the CC that screws us over the most) and Rogues want Warrior's distance closure capabilities.

All i'm saying is there has to be some sort of happy medium between 25 second intercept and 12 second charge with 25 second intercept.

Not when we have virtually no ways to remove rooting effects, no. The counterbalance is that while we can't remove rooting effects (when most melee can on multiple occasions) when we're not rooted we can zip around.

I don't like that counterbalance personally, and I would much rather have something in that happy medium + an anti-snare/root ability (like Master's Call) but I'm not willing to deliberate a reduction to my mobility without something against rooting effects.

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(Arms) have just too much mobility, too much dmg, an always up healing debuff, too much CC avoidance and they can survive too well. The new charge in combat is worst than macestun.