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Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

Who said I don't think the NFL doesn't have serious dirt behind the scenes? They have a massive steroid problem that no one talks about. Every league has dirt.

But you are saying the objective of the game is to hurt the opponent. Thats down right bull ****. Show me where in players contracts where they get bonuses for injuring players like they get bonuses for sacks or TDs.

You should never play the game with the purpose of hurting your opponent. Its not how the game is meant to be played. It also is reckless and not only are you going to hurt someone else, you will hurt yourself.

Trying to win by injuring the opponent is downright dirty and cowardly. Winning by scoring touchdowns and getting sacks is how the game is played. Thats why those who are good at that get rewarded with incentives like they should.

Purposely injuring players has no place in the NFL. Injuries should not be celebrated and certainly shouldn't be rewarded. We are talking about people's lives here. The game is already dangerous enough, no need to make it more dangerous through idiotic bounties.

My point is that don't expect players/coaches around the league to be outraged about it because they know how it really is. Its not PC just like the steroid/PEDs that run rampant in the league.

So yes I don't think most of these organizations are above this in fact I think on some level they all do it the Saints were arrogant enough to still keep doing it despite being publically warned about it.

Sure this has no place in the NFL, just like Steroids shouldn't, stealing opposing teams plays via video camera.. and yet they will still do it.

The Saints will be made an example of for public purposes but nothing will change.

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Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

Extra bounty for cart-off is vile. That's a person's life you're talking about. This is sport, it isn't ****ing war. Anyone who accepted or rewarded a cart-off bounty should be removed from the league.

In a makeshift meeting room, with the whisper of evening traffic pouring in from the Beltway, we laid our bounties on opposing players. We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game.

Price tags started low during the regular season — a couple hundred bucks for going after the quarterback hard or taking a running back out below the knees. Chop him down and give a quick smile when you got back to the huddle. You just got a bonus.

The pot was collected throughout the season through fines. Show up late? Ding. Blow an assignment during practice? Again. Walk on the field with your chinstrap unbuckled. Again. Break the rules, you gave to the bank.

The cash was kept stashed away at the team facility, in safe hands. After coaches reviewed Sunday's film, we paid it back out. Our accountability, governed by our accounting.

That's right. We got paid for big hits, clean hits by the rule book.

Money came in for more than watching a guy leave the field. We earned extra for interceptions, sacks and forced fumbles. If the till wasn't paid out, we just rolled it over.

Money jumped in the playoffs. A bigger stage equaled more coin. Instead of a few hundred dollars, now you got a thousand, maybe more, depending on the player.

That's the truth. I can't sugarcoat this. It was a system we all bought into.

I ate it up.

It's hard not to, not when you're playing for a coach like Gregg Williams, my defensive coordinator while I was with the Washington Redskins.

Williams is an excellent motivator. You do what he wants: play tough, push the envelope and carry a swagger that every opponent sees on tape. When you lined up against us, you knew we were coming after you. It was our gig, our plan, our way to motivate, to extra-motivate.

I wanted to be That Guy for him, playing the game with an attitude opposing players absolutely feared. If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it.

I don't regret any part of it. I can't. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change.

Your career exists in a short window, one that starts closing the moment it opens. If making a play to impress a coach or win a game pushes that window up an inch before it slams back down on your fingers, then you do what has to be done.

Some day, when my three sons grow up, I will make clear to them that this league isn't for everyone. No doubt, it can be downright disgusting living by a win-at-all-costs mentality. It's a fundamental part of the NFL's culture that isn't talked about outside of team facilities.

I'm not saying it's right. Or ethical. But the NFL isn't little league football with neighborhood dads playing head coach. This is the business of winning. If that means stepping over some line, you do it.

Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are a part of this game. It is an ugly tradition that was exposed Friday with Williams front and center from his time coaching the defense in New Orleans. But don't peg this on him alone. You will find it in plenty of NFL cities.

Win or else. That's the drill.

I agree with Bowen it is part of the game. This is being blown way out of proportion IMO this is the NFL this isn't college I cant believe they are going to take draft picks away.

He is one of my favorite sports guys watch him a lot on Chicago Tribune Live

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

I agree with Bowen it is part of the game. This is being blown way out of proportion IMO this is the NFL this isn't college I cant believe they are going to take draft picks away.

He is one of my favorite sports guys watch him a lot on Chicago Tribune Live

It is not part of the game. The game is making plays on the ball. It should not consist of deliberately taking guys out. Everyone on the planet understands that the NFL is an inherently risky sport and that injuries are going to happen. There is a big enough risk of guys getting injured when players are merely trying to make honest football plays. But when world class athletes are *deliberately* trying to take guys out then that multiples the risk of severe injury by an insane factor.

This is not being blown out of proportion. Gregg Williams defenses are responsible for deliberate brutal hits on three of the greatest QB's ever. The Warner hit practically knocked him into retirement. As Shade mentioned above, the Saints were clearly trying to take Favre out of that game. And just watch that video of the 2006 Manning hit. They are clearly trying to rip his head off. I've watched practically every game that Manning has played and he has never looked as visibly heated as he did there. He understood damn well that the Redskins player was deliberately trying to hurt him. Dungy, who was closer to Manning than anyone, said that Manning wasn't quite the same after that and I believe him.

The NFL has been under a ton of heat lately for injuries and the long term health of players. No one should be surprised when they lay the hammer on the Saints. An example must be made of them. Merely punishing Williams does nothing to hurt the Saints since he is no longer there. They should take multiple draft picks away and penalize Payton as well. No head coach should get away with turning their head on something like this, ESPECIALLY since he turned his head after the NFL warned them.

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

It is not part of the game. The game is making plays on the ball. It should not consistent of deliberately taking guys out. Everyone on the planet understands that the NFL is an inherently risky sport and that injuries are going to happen. There is a big enough risk of guys getting injured when players are merely trying to make honest football plays. But when world class athletes are *deliberately* trying to take guys out then that multiples the risk of severe injury by an insane factor.

This is not being blown out of proportion. Gregg Williams defenses are responsible for deliberate brutal hits on three of the greatest QB's ever. The Warner hit practically knocked him into retirement. As Shade mentioned above, the Saints were clearly trying to take Favre out of that game. And just watch that video of the 2006 Manning hit. They are clearly trying to rip his head off. I've watched practically every game that Manning has played and he has never looked as visibly heated as he did there. He understood damn well that the Redskins player was deliberately trying to hurt him. Dungy, who was closer to Manning than anyone, said that Manning wasn't quite the same after that and I believe him.

The NFL has been under a ton of heat lately for injuries and the long term health of players. No one should be surprised when they lay the hammer on the Saints. An example must be made of them.

This must be a hard thing for Bowen (who?) to understand: people aren't paying money to see him play, they are paying money to see Manning, Farve, Warner, Adrian Peterson, etc

When no-name D-ends are taking out the stars of the league, that is just bad for business. And so that is another reason I expect the NFL to crack down.

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Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

All of this stems from the trend that began in the late 1970's, and persists today, of defenders hitting offensive ball carriers more often than making the safer and easier tackle.

Every single week in the NFL you can watch as defenders go for the hit instead of merely tackling. In almost all cases, the tackle is the better play and is entirely possible, but hitting gets so much hype that players seem to perceive it as the first option and tackling as the second.

Invariably, you can find a dozen or more plays per game where additional yards are gained as a result of a defender only hitting a ball carrier, rather than tackling, and failing to bring the carrier down, thus allowing him to proceed forward.

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

The NFL is being sued currently because players have suffered debilitating injuries after retirement. This is a lot worse than spygate because it means that the NFL brass allowed these types of bounties to occur. This will cost the NFL lots of money in the courts.

i think Williams is suspended no less than half the season and possibly the entire season, Payton 6 games, the Saints GM who was told to stop it and didn't half the season. Looking at big fines this coming season for hits that result in hurt players.
All those guys still crying that they are ruining the game of football will be considered dinosaurs.

If it were my call, Williams would be given the largest allowable fine and he would be banned, period. The best thing the NFL can do is try to financially ruin him and take away his career. That is the example you want to set for anyone even remotely thinking about doing something similar in the future.

The next thing I would do is to raise the limit on fines for such behavior on teams, coaches, GMs and players to such ridiculous limits that teams will be more than willing to relentlessly self-police themselves.

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

I agree with Bowen it is part of the game. This is being blown way out of proportion IMO this is the NFL this isn't college I cant believe they are going to take draft picks away.

He is one of my favorite sports guys watch him a lot on Chicago Tribune Live

I understand you being a young fellow and not seeing the differences all to sharply yet, but you will have to understand that the word "sport" inherently means that it is NOT a matter of life and dead.
Not a matter of win by all cost, willing to kill your opponent, once you enter thats stage it is called war, whoever has the biggest guns wins.

if that is Bowen's vision of the game i sincerely hope his warped mind will change sooner rather than later so his sons don't need to learn of their dad's primal behaviour that could well have cost people their life and health.

The idea that you run risk in a violent sport like football or rugby, boxing, and all martial arts is embedded, but that is a risk based on everyone sticking to the rules, the rules that GOVERN a sport, rules that are there to make sure participants don't run mad risks.
People breaking the rules on purpose are sick, no two ways about it, if you can not differentiate between the sport that makes you wealthy and trying to kill someone/end someone's career than you have no place in a community, you are nothing but a common criminal that should be in jail with all the other (un)succesfull law breakers.

I am not a judge but considering the consequences of this (would you like to be the insurer ? or were you a victim?) penalties against all involved, including those no longer active should be severe.
picks? they should thank all they can think of for still being in the league!

So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

The NFL is zeroing in on the safety aspect. But the thing that people are forgetting here is that even if safety was an afterhtought here, rules were still broken. It's a salary cap violation. The money these players were paid out of this pool is off the books, and illegal. There are big ramifications here. You get caught up in everything from a team having an unfair advantage by spending over the cap to the agents not getting their cut of any extra money. In the history of major professional sports, one thing they have all been consistent on is MAJOR penalties when salary cap rules are violated.

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

I wondered about the money issue, and maybe this was answered and I missed it, who was funding the bounty? Was it the coaches, the owner, the GM, the players, a portion of the players (such as the defensive teams), etc??

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

I wondered about the money issue, and maybe this was answered and I missed it, who was funding the bounty? Was it the coaches, the owner, the GM, the players, a portion of the players (such as the defensive teams), etc??

Fines. (players late to meetings, chinstraps not buckled, late for team plane, missed assignments during games, etc)

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

In the history of major professional sports, one thing they have all been consistent on is MAJOR penalties when salary cap rules are violated.

It's true that salary cap violations are harshly penalized. Strangely though, those cases never have gotten the publicity that they would now.

I wonder how many people actually know that the Broncos gave an extra $29 million to John Elway and Terrell Davis under the table, won 2 super bowls in doing it, got caught and were fined $968K while losing a 3rd round pick, then got caught AGAIN and were fined $950K and lost another a 3rd round pick?

If somebody even TRIED that today, Goodell would disband the franchise.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Saints violated NFL's "Bounty Rule"

The NFL is zeroing in on the safety aspect. But the thing that people are forgetting here is that even if safety was an afterhtought here, rules were still broken. It's a salary cap violation. The money these players were paid out of this pool is off the books, and illegal. There are big ramifications here. You get caught up in everything from a team having an unfair advantage by spending over the cap to the agents not getting their cut of any extra money. In the history of major professional sports, one thing they have all been consistent on is MAJOR penalties when salary cap rules are violated.

How about taking away three number ones, fining the owner $10 million and giving the owner the choice of firing Payton or losing an entire draft. They should also suspend Payton for a year if he tries to go to another team and suspend Williams for five years.... If you want to get tough, really get tough....