OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/story/26877/How_dongle_jokes_got_two_people_fired
Exploring the Future of Computingen-usCopyright 2001-2015, David Adamsadam+nospam@osnews.comTue, 03 Mar 2015 20:53:10 GMThttp://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gifOSNews.comhttp://www.osnews.com
Both sideshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556055
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556055I can see fault on both sides, at least with the portions of the story that I've read so far. If PyCon really was a "professional" conference, then the guys could have shown more discretion in the types of comments they made (btw, we've really only seen paraphrases of what they said, not quotes, and only one person's interpretation).

On the other side of the coin, I don't think it was appropriate for her to post the pic and publicly call them out, without first approaching them privately. That's just a douchey thing to do.

I don't see how any of this is "anti-woman" anyway, which seems to be the kind of spin that people that heavily support Ms. Richards are putting on it.

Regardless, this all seems to have been blown WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion. There was no need for one person to lose their job over this, let alone two people.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:56:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jasutton)CommentsComment by robojerkhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556056
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556056I wanna hear these jokes.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:03:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (robojerk)CommentsOverblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556058
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556058I would have sympathized with the girl's point of view if this was a public talk that we were talking about, but really, calling people out on a private conversation which you are no part of is out of line. And if she felt that the conversation wasn't private enough, she could just turn back and tell them to be quieter.

Not playing the bully apologist, mind you, the actions subsequently taken against her were also completely excessive. Sane people do not fire other people for dramatically overreacting to a bad joke, even when undergoing horribly frightening death threats from daylight-afraid fat script kiddies.

In the end, it seems that the only sane actions in this mess were taken by the PyCon organizers. True to Python's zen nature I guess... Edited 2013-03-21 21:26 UTCThu, 21 Mar 2013 21:06:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Neolander)CommentsSheeshhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556059
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556059Going to steal a few snippets from comments from the article:

This woman was only looking out for herself. She can make dick jokes on her work account, publicly, but has a problem with misinterpreted jokes being whispered in a crowd? Riiiiiiight. She wanted to seem high and mighty, and it blew up in her face. What a self righteous, disgusting, cowardly woman. Instead of being an adult, she cost someone their job. Being an adult woman deserving respect in an industry is great, this however is not how you get it. She notably embarrassed herself, she possibly ruined someone's career because she couldn't take a moment to act her age and instead went seeking glory. Glad it blew up in her face, she deserves worse.

Downvotes be damned, I'm glad that 'society's last beacon of hope' got smacked down from her white horse. She could have handled it like an adult and asked the men to stop, and proceeded from there. Instead, she took it upon her narcissistic-self to save the world from those evil men. I don't agree with the overreaction of "the Internet", but just looking through her past tweets shows her to be an incredible hypocrite.

I do not know just how offensive the jokes were or the two guys were being. But making some assumptions, I would tend to be much more concerned about the person who would not confront you, but would take your picture, post it online, get you (and herself) fired.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:08:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (WorknMan)CommentsThis story is so stupid, I even titled my comment.http://www.osnews.com/thread?556062
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556062Since the jokes weren't directed towards her, she should have just minded her own damn business, especially since she doesn't seem to have a problem making dick jokes herself on twitter.

Richards also shouldn't have gotten fired (A stern finger wagging would have sufficed).Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:15:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Drumhellar)CommentsComment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556064
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556064I'm sure this will be a long thread, because it's something where everyone has an opinion ;-). Here's mine:

Some people don't understand the gravity of careless behavior in public social media. It may be ok if you don't have a job, but if you have, be aware that your actions can, in various ways, hurt your employer, and your future options.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:19:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (vivainio)CommentsThe straw the broke the camels backhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556068
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556068I can well sympathize with Adria. Taken in isolation, her decision to go to public shaming might seem rash, but I'm guessing the incident at PyCon was the straw the broke the camels back. I've read plenty of accounts from women in tech, enough to know that you are living day in, day out in a world full of random inappropriate comments, whispered conversations that end when you enter the room, and other such background awkwardness. At some point, you just get fed up. I highly doubt she expected either of the guys she decided to shame to get fired, It was just that moment in time when she finally got fed up with taking crap in silence. I've been there myself at times in my life, and it can lead to a bit of overreaction, because you've got ton of built of frustration when the moment comes.

I think in all of this, PyCon comes off looking best. They took the incident seriously, investigated, and took measured action.

SendGrid comes off the worst for me, because they clearly buckled under the bizarre ration of unreasoning bile that gets unleashed any time a woman dares speak up, rightly or wrongly, against the code of silence we cast around the pervasive low-grade sexism in our industry.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:35:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (rafial)CommentsComment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556069
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556069Apparently, Adria can have a difficult personality, so the stunt may not be as innocent/accidental screwup as we think:

https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:40:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (vivainio)CommentsRE: Comment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556074
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556074Men with "difficult personalities" are a dime a dozen in the tech sphere. None of them get near the ration of virulent hatred that a woman who speaks up does. We see this kind of behavior online on a practically weekly basis.

And lets be frank. "Difficult personality" when applied to a woman is usually just code for "woman who speaks up for herself."Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:53:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (rafial)CommentsRE: The straw the broke the camels backhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556080
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556080

I can well sympathize with Adria. Taken in isolation, her decision to go to public shaming might seem rash, but I'm guessing the incident at PyCon was the straw the broke the camels back.

From another perspective: still, it was just one straw. Why is it that this straw should be hung out publicly but not the rest that also put their weight on the camels back? I am not taking a stand, just pointing out that there is more than one way to look at it.

I think this has been blown out of all proportions and I won't lay the blame on either party. Making inappropriate jokes where someone might overhear them and take offense is kind of stupid. Publicly shaming someone for something like that when you could have told them to cut it out and that their behaviour goes against the codes of conduct of the conference they are attending is overkill.

If you bring out the heavy artillery and post something on the net where it might never be taken down again, you can pretty much know that you have set the wheels in motion and something will happen. The troubling part is that you really don't know where this ends up.

I was not there, so I cannot be the judge of how inappropriate any jokes might have been, but then again lashing out should never be the first response, no matter what you have been through before. If this was a repeat offence it is one thing (of course, then it is not the first response by definition). But did the involved parties have a prior history together that might justify jumping over the first steps of any conflict resolution? There are better ways of defusing an infected situation. How this has evolved (or rather devolved) just shows what can happen when you make poor choices in the first place (and I am referencing both to the poor jokes and the public shaming).

It could have stayed as an adult conversation between the offended party and the party trying to be funny or, if it was really serious, getting someone being asked to leave the conference by the management after an official complaint and getting a reprimand from the employer for poor conduct while representing the company at a professional event.

Where this have landed now is just sad, people losing their jobs, people being threatened and igniting fires on the net. Was that more than anyone ever thought possible at the time? Most likely. Still, go public on the net with something without thought and you never know where it might end up. We should have learned this much by now. Although I feel sorry for everyone involved in this - they didn't deserve what happened, perhaps we all can at least learn something from this:

- Women in the industry must be treated with more respect if we are ever going to get to an equal society. I very much like and prefer to work in a mixed environment, let us make our field welcome to everyone.
- Find the right forum for every kind of communication.
- Don't escalate issues without a good reason. We should strive to solve problems, not introduce new ones.

OSNews is a very civilized forum and although I am sad to see what has happened, I trust that we can do something positive in light of what has happened. Thanks for reading this far.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 22:24:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (maxz)CommentsRE: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556089
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556089

Not playing the bully apologist, mind you, the actions subsequently taken against her were also completely excessive.

She pixxed & publicly shamed two people (without ever mentioning it to them) because she felt that their private conversation was insulting.

Seems entirely appropriate that a person like that was fired - I wouldn't want working with her, or have her as an employee.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 22:59:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (f0dder)Commentschip on shoulderhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556094
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556094Adria obviously has a chip on her shoulder. How can you infer anything sexual about "forking a repo"? I suppose you could say that forks are phallic and thus implies sexual penetration. Except that in this case, fork means to split. How does splitting refer to anything sexual. Too many people invent insults to fulfill their own fantasies.Edited 2013-03-21 23:34 UTCThu, 21 Mar 2013 23:33:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (TechGeek)CommentsRE: This story is so stupid, I even titled my comment.http://www.osnews.com/thread?556095
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556095

Richards also shouldn't have gotten fired (A stern finger wagging would have sufficed).

She shouldn't have been fired for these specific actions. She should however be fired for being bat-shit crazy, and her actions in this case should be strong indication of exactly that. A little further look at what she writes could then easily confirm the diagnosis. So, yes. She should have been fired, but a long long time ago.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:33:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Carewolf)CommentsRE[2]: Comment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556097
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556097"woman who speaks up for herself"

Which is not the case here. No Joan D'Arc to be found anywhere in this idiot story. Only white knights and a bigot.Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:40:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (ronaldst)CommentsRE: chip on shoulderhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556104
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556104

I suppose you could say that forks are phallic and thus implies sexual penetration. Except that in this case, fork means to split. How does splitting refer to anything sexual.

Then I'm going to assume she's an idiot.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:38:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender)CommentsRE[2]: Comment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556115
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556115No, it's mean's your an ass, regardless of sex. Being a woman does not give a free pass to be an ass any more than being a man does.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 02:40:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Soulbender)CommentsJust more PC Bullhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556126
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556126... and the true nature of all the Python ****wads.

Honestly, this is TAME compared to some of the bull I've dealt with in the python community this past year in terms of privacy, complete lack of a sense of humor, inability to take serious criticism, and instead want to slap the rose colored glasses around everyone's head and sweep anything remotely resembling legitimate problems under the rug. I have only once ever dealt with another group of people that up-tight about anything, I'll be nice and not say who that was.

Let's just say there's a reason any projects I had involving Python were shitcanned and I've told the Pi community and their raging hard-on for Python where they can stick it! (Besides the cubieboard is FAR more useful since it actually has a PROPER amount of free I/O connects)

These folks make FLOSS-tards and Church of Stallman whackjobs look sane!Fri, 22 Mar 2013 04:46:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (deathshadow)CommentsRE: Just more PC Bullhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556135
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556135

.. and the true nature of all the Python ****wads.

Yeah, because judging everyone based on the behaviour of one person is awesome.

Let's just say there's a reason any projects I had involving Python were shitcanned

Considering I've got some three decades programming experience, with mastery of machine language on five processor platforms (6502, 6809, Z80, x86 and ARM), fluent in C, C++, Pascal, javascript, PHP and Perl... much less the various web markup languages -- this seems unlikely. I should even like Python -- I'm a stickler for code indentation.

But the community as a whole across multiple forums left me with such a sour taste in my mouth I don't want anything to do with it ever again. That's why I deep-sixed doing anything in Python moving one project to C++, one to FPC+Lazarus, one to just FPC (though that's on indefinite hold since it's for the Pi and it turns out when it comes to floating point it's not as fast as the 487 half of a DX4/100 even with VFP), and one other to PHP since that's just a CMS anyways.

... and I'm not alone in this -- see where Tor Chat is headed. Taking a page out of Skype's book and going to FPC+Lazarus.Edited 2013-03-22 06:35 UTCFri, 22 Mar 2013 06:33:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (deathshadow)CommentsRE[2]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556139
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556139

"Not playing the bully apologist, mind you, the actions subsequently taken against her were also completely excessive."

She pixxed & publicly shamed two people (without ever mentioning it to them) because she felt that their private conversation was insulting.

Seems entirely appropriate that a person like that was fired - I wouldn't want working with her, or have her as an employee.

Tons of people behave like douchebags on the web everyday, if we were to fire everyone who does that then I'm sure that the few that kept a job would subsequently join the crowd screaming about the western world's unemployement problem.

The reason why she got fired, DDOSed, and send death and rape threats among other unpleasant things, is probably that this time, the guy got fired. Which, again, shouldn't have happened if his employer was sane and well-informed. And which we could arguably say she probably wouldn't have asked for either. Though after reading the article linked by viviano about her personality, I do wonder...Edited 2013-03-22 06:45 UTCFri, 22 Mar 2013 06:39:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Neolander)CommentsComment by MOS6510http://www.osnews.com/thread?556145
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556145Adria Richards is a dongle.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:34:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (MOS6510)CommentsRE: The straw the broke the camels backhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556146
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556146Personally, I am frustrated by the corrupt Indian politicians in India. But would it justify my throwing a grenade in the the lower house of parliament? I guess not.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:38:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (brajbir)CommentsRE: Just more PC Bullhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556153
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556153Your comment doesn't look very sane itself.
And for the cubieboard, it seems sold out..
I'd say that unavailable hardware isn't useful.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:03:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (renox)CommentsRE: Both sideshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556170
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556170I've attended PyCon every year since 2006 - it's my favourite all-time conference. Ironically, this was the first year I've missed since (budget cuts or fate, whatever).

The sad thing to me is that the Python Foundation has invested such exceptional effort to build a welcoming community for women. The conference committee actively seeks female presenters at all levels (and I've attended some excellent talks as a result). They implemented and publicized a code of conduct many PyCons ago, and have addressed the few issues I'm aware that have come up (including this one) with professionalism. They sponsor PyLadies ("women who love coding in Python"), even hosting a fund-raising event this year to expand their activities.

And all of this without ever once making me feel less welcome as a man.

These are fine people who bring credit to the world of software engineering. I'm so sad that this happened. How simple would it have been to say, "That joke is offensive, please stop"?Fri, 22 Mar 2013 11:06:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (ricegf)CommentsRE[2]: Comment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556185
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556185

Men with "difficult personalities" are a dime a dozen in the tech sphere. None of them get near the ration of virulent hatred that a woman who speaks up does. We see this kind of behavior online on a practically weekly basis.

And lets be frank. "Difficult personality" when applied to a woman is usually just code for "woman who speaks up for herself."

You're right, but in the wrong context. I don't think your comment deserves to be so far down, but neither do I think Ms. Richards deserves the benefit of the doubt. It's clear from her history that she prefers to escalate conflict rather than resolve it.

But the feelings and double standards you point to are real, and the worst thing is, as the parent comment's link points out, her actions only make it worse. Instead of trying to change the tone of the room, she decided to escalate hostilities.

Being fired will only validate her persecution complex. For the man making the jokes, being fired is not a lesson in sympathy, but in fearing bullies. For the rest of the culture, having Adria Richards as an example reinforces the notion that feminism is irrational, aggressive, humorless, and dangerous. For women in the industry, employers may learn to weigh a fear of this kind of incident against an applicant's competence. No one comes out of this better for it. But hey, she scored some press. To quote the linked blog post:

All she had to consider was âwhat outcome am I looking for?â. If the outcome is âchange the way these men are speakingâ sheâd have taken a different route. If âmake as big a deal of this as humanly possible with no thought to consequenceâ was her outcome, she chose right.

How simple would it have been to say, "That joke is offensive, please stop"?

Well, there's the school of thought that having to do so is a secondary act of harrasment: the first is the comments/act that caused the person to feel uncomfortable, while the second is the embarrassment of having to stand in front of that person and let them know how their comments/act made them feel, forcing the victim to put their private emotions/feelings on display for the perpetrator. There's a certain amount of truth to it, but not so much that I feel it should be an automatic reason to escalation in every situation (and definitely not in this one, where the comments were not directed nor even about the offended person - or even explicitly their gender - in question).

In any case... I think this is a case where both parties were in the wrong. The developer making the joke was at a professional conference representing his company, and should have conducted himself as he would have in front of any partner, client, vendor, etc. Adria's response was also greatly disproportionate; instead of leaving it at reporting it to PyCon - whose Code of Conduct was violated - she took it public in a manner in which she was also representing her company, and did so in a way that greatly overstated the severity of the situation (little girls everywhere never learning to program because of their "big dongle" joke? Characterizing their behaviour as lynch mob-ish, Lord of the Flies anarchy? Come on). Not to mention she made essentially the same faux pas via Twitter days earlier (if you don't see the equivalence, give your head a shake).

Should they both have been fired? Cant' say. But at the very least they both acted poorly. If anything I feel more sympathy for the fired developer; at least he seems to regret his actions, while Adria is still proudly beating her chest over what she did (though I am disgusted to hear that death/rape threats being leveled at her; inexcusable).Edited 2013-03-22 13:55 UTCFri, 22 Mar 2013 13:50:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (sparkyERTW)CommentsRE[3]: Both sideshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556204
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556204I agree in general, but I think this is a different school than the one to which this thought applies. The men were engaging in a private conversation. If she doesn't tell them she is eavesdropping and is offended, how exactly are they supposed to know?

Other than in cases of overt and directed harassment, I think women are tough enough to say "Stop it". Never bothrd me.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:46:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (ricegf)CommentsRE[4]: Both sideshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556220
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556220

I agree in general, but I think this is a different school than the one to which this thought applies. The men were engaging in a private conversation. If she doesn't tell them she is eavesdropping and is offended, how exactly are they supposed to know?

Other than in cases of overt and directed harassment, I think women are tough enough to say "Stop it". Never bothrd me.

Well, semi-private; we are talking a professional conference. It's roughly the same as if I we're in my cubicle at work telling a off-colour joke to work friend or someone on the phone: if another co-worker in an adjoining cubicle or walking by can hear it and is upset by it, I'm liable as I am expected to conduct myself professionally within the confines of the office, just as the developer was expected to conduct himself professionally within the confines of the conference, as per PyCon's Code of Conduct.

Even outside of a professional context, it's basic etiquette to be aware of your surroundings in a public place. If I'm sitting in a coffee shop and nearby customers are made uncomfortable because they can overhear my end of an explicit, vulger or otherwise offensive conversation, I'm at fault and they have every right to tell me off or go to the management.

Overt and directed or not, going to the PyCon administration was an acceptable alternative to confronting them directly. What was not an appropriate response was turning the table and publicly humiliating the developer, especially considering that the PyCon staff approach worked.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 15:58:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (sparkyERTW)CommentsRE: Both sideshttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556284
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556284

I don't see how any of this is "anti-woman" anyway, which seems to be the kind of spin that people that heavily support Ms. Richards are putting on it.

Clearly she's just another victim of the man-o-centric male-ocracy.Fri, 22 Mar 2013 21:52:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (BallmerKnowsBest)CommentsComment by Ninjawidgethttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556366
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556366Totally Pathetic, this is probably why I no longer develop on Python anyway. Some of the people at the meets are right idiots, and I'm not talking about those making so called inappropriate comments...

Hey guys, you want to have a laugh, come along to a Ruby meetup, at least there you won't get Adria Richards, well hopefully not...:-)Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:23:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Ninjawidget)CommentsRE: Comment by vivainiohttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556403
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556403I keep hearing the "hurt the employer" argument and frankly, I think it's bu11_sh1t.

Perhaps if someone is senior management muses out loud about internal production problems or change in strategy, there might be repercussions on the markets but off-color jokes?

Insensitive and offensive remarks have been made by all sorts of people. Donald Trump called the Chinese leadership a bunch of m0th3rfuck3rs and disrespected his own President - what has that cost him?
Did NBC drop The Apprentice because of anything he's said or done?Sun, 24 Mar 2013 02:02:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (bannor99)CommentsRE[3]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556414
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556414If you read carefully, you'll notice that the guy got fired AFTER an internal investigation might have concluded that's not the first occurence of misconduct, internal or external like in PyCon. We do not have the full background of the story and no detail regarding the investigation procedure, we can however be somewhat confident that if the company decided to split from this coder, they had enough evidence that side them.

The guy can be really a fine one, good coder, nice bearded employee with good mood. But if a company decided to entrust a way of conduct beyon reasonable, with little freedom for mistake and/or misconduct, they are also free to do so. Employee got fired for using a forgotten consumer's 1$ coupon.

I'm not mysoginic, but the girl behavior is at full fault : instead to face back the two guys with her feminist pride and tell them to go fuck themself (or any more appropriate diplomatic stance) she smiled at them (obviously already having planned the public shaming) took a pic and disapeared, without giving them a chance to correct themselves.

She saw a bug in their code, and decided to release it in production !

She's at full fault because this misconduct can be applyed again in another case to side her case when she needs it. She showed a really untrustful conduct. If she is so much about sexism, she showed no great move from the woman side.

KochiseSun, 24 Mar 2013 07:12:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Kochise)CommentsComment by hussamhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556421
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556421reminds me of this comic strip http://www.plasticbrickautomaton.com/comics/101.jpg Edited 2013-03-24 10:40 UTCSun, 24 Mar 2013 10:39:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (hussam)CommentsRE[4]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556545
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556545"with her feminist pride" - this tells me all I need to know about you.Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:00:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jal_)CommentsAshamedhttp://www.osnews.com/thread?556549
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556549Though it maybe expected, given that sexism and misogyny is rampant in the tech community at large, I'm deeply ashamed that here at OSNews, dumb, mysoginist comments like http://www.osnews.com/permalink?556059 are upvoted into the sky, and thoughtful, diplomatic comments like http://www.osnews.com/permalink?556068 are downvoted into the ground.

A few thoughts:
1) At a conference sitting in rows, if you are talking to your neighbour, unless wispering at very low volume, people around you will hear you. If you make a joke, you get heard. Don't tell me they didn't know that. Everyone knows that.
2) The tech communicty is extremely male dominated and misogyny is rampant. You need only Google, even with weak Google fu, to determine that. Almost every woman that has visited a tech conference (or for that matter other male dominated conferences like SciFi, comics, etc.) has experienced sexism or worse.
3) Woman do not have to put up with sexism. Men do not have the prerogative to demean or sexualize women for their pleasure. Yet it happens all the time, and the typical male response is that's it's "only" meant as a joke.
4) Adria did not call for the guys' resignation. She asked the conference organizers to handle them according to the conference rules. No doubt this wasn't the first time she had to deal with this kind of behaviour, and sadly it won't be the last.Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:22:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jal_)CommentsRE[5]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556556
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556556No problem, if you can make lightening fast assumptions about me the way Adria made about jokes and comments she half-heard behind her back (paranoid-stance ?) then it also tells me alot about you.

Adults, men or women, tend to make light jokes about everything. And yeah, women can be as dirty as men when it comes to this "subtle" subject. She decided to enforce the ruling as a spoke person, teacher, evangelist, blogist, whateverist, now she faces that some subjects just do not deserve so much fuzz about them.

And yeah, feminists tend to drop the brain for a good little fight. She was neither personally harassed not physically assaulted, the jokes were privately held, yet she jumped in with her two foot, splattering the mud all over. And it is obviously not her first instance in that matter.

Since she still haven't learn when to shut up and when to finger point and scream for "rape", then it struck her back really bad, like a boomerang. But it also made some damages nearby in the process. At least it showed everybody that some sort of "fundamentalism" can be really bad when wrongly applied.

- The guys were telling dick jokes at a professional convention. Tell dick jokes in a work-related environment and thou may bring down wrath upon thy head. Duh!

- Richards went pretty far with the surreptitious photo IMO, that was rude and unprofessional. But the other two developers were also being rude and unprofessional, and I think she was completely within her rights to complain.

- Richards getting fired = screwed up. The DDoS attacks = also screwed up. The other developer getting fired = overreaction IMO, but not as much overreaction as SendGrid's response.

Really though, is it too much to ask for for guys at a professional Python coders' convention to behave like adults? This is public. It's not the place for dick jokes.

P.S. RTFA. Please.Edited 2013-03-25 15:41 UTCMon, 25 Mar 2013 15:41:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Gullible Jones)CommentsRE: Wait, WTF?http://www.osnews.com/thread?556566
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556566"dongle" was dick-joke related, "fork" wasn't. Even at a professional convention, if people cannot speak privately and getting light, perhaps while waiting for the speaker to start, then what's up ? You shouldn't get easy while taking a sip front of the coffee machine, because someone might hear you, and you're in your office ? Cannot talk about private stuff at the firm's restaurant because you're under contract and cannot talk freely ?

The guys were in the crowd, watching, waiting, feeling loosy, not on stage speaking on the microphone. Please make the difference. Adria went into a personal vendetta she has made of her agenda. She is an "attention whore" and every opportunity is seized to write a blog post about it, to show up to the front and voice her opinion, whenever she have one.

Humility is obviously not her best quality, since she displays so much will for driving the world her way.

Do you really believe so ? Were only coders' jokes permitted ? I bet several other people around the theater were having private conversations during the lecture, perhaps even some making some dirt jokes, BUT! no one decided to make such a big noise and joke-gate about it.

Ever heard of something called the real world outside of your cubicle ? Humans are humans, there was no reasons to go thermonuclear on this, PyCon ain't Afghanistan's hills.

Anyway that's not the issue at this point. The current issue IMO is the response from the community, which has been ridiculously over the top, and mostly one-sided, as exemplified by your ad hominem post above.

Think about it. If Richards were a man, would you have used that term "attention whore?" Would you have found need to insult her character?Edited 2013-03-25 16:51 UTCMon, 25 Mar 2013 16:44:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Gullible Jones)CommentsRE[5]: Wait, WTF?http://www.osnews.com/thread?556571
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556571Richard Stallman is a man, yet he IS an attention whore. Equality restored ! Happy now ?

Would you also point out, that beside being a girl, she is also colored, way too sexy, intelligent and competent, thus no man could bear all of this in the same package ?

You're too of a defensive fan-boy, be a little objective. And the "community" is self-protective and not always realistic, see the Windows vs. Linux / proprietary vs. open / C++ vs. Java debates all over there.

The "community" as you call it, at large, is composed of smart and nice people that do not needs a tweet to solve issues. Real men uses bare hands, and women... dirty tricks against dirty jokes ? The community is ALSO composed of women that doesn't seems ti side Adria. So, what's up ? Who's over reacting ?

KochiseMon, 25 Mar 2013 17:05:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Kochise)CommentsRE[6]: Wait, WTF?http://www.osnews.com/thread?556576
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556576Actually I said that her initial reaction "rude and unprofessional." But please don't let that get in the way of your assumptions about me.Mon, 25 Mar 2013 17:28:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Gullible Jones)CommentsRE[7]: Wait, WTF?http://www.osnews.com/thread?556580
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556580Yeah, but since you also framed your sentence with :

"The guys were telling dick jokes at a professional convention. Tell dick jokes in a work-related environment and thou may bring down wrath upon thy head. Duh! "

AND

"But the other two developers were also being rude and unprofessional, and I think she was completely within her rights to complain."

I bet you wanted to focus on the guys being bad and unprofessional, and villain, and bad, and... well you get the idea.

Imagine if one of the guy farted, would have she called the FBI, CIA, NSA for biological attack ? It's also strictly forbidden and unprofessional at PyCon, to display such jerk behaviors, farting amongst such classy people.

Duh !

KochiseEdited 2013-03-25 18:08 UTCMon, 25 Mar 2013 18:07:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (Kochise)CommentsRE[6]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556649
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556649It's good to see that all the assumptions I made about you are true. You are exactly the type of person that pollutes the tech industry with sexism. Let's take your claims apart:

the way Adria made about jokes and comments she half-heard behind her back

You are downplaying here what she heard. As far as I've been able to conclude from what I've read (and we both need to rely on that, since we were not present), the "jokes and comments" were perfectly audible, so she didn't "half-hear" them. Nice try to downplay her claim.

Adults, men or women, tend to make light jokes about everything. And yeah, women can be as dirty as men when it comes to this "subtle" subject.

True, but a) that has nothing to do with the case at hand, and b) "dirty" does not mean "sexist" by definition. Red herring.

She decided to enforce the ruling as a spoke person, teacher, evangelist, blogist, whateverist

She enforced what "ruling" exactly? What she did, as a participant (not as "evangelist" or whatever) is twitter a picture to organizers, asking them to take care of things. The only debatable issue is whether or not she should have made this complaint through a public forum. The "enforcing" was done by the organizers.

And yeah, feminists tend to drop the brain for a good little fight.

This is your most misogynist statement so far. Do you even know what a feminist is? A feminist is someone (male or female) that believes that women should have equal rights and opportunities to men.

She was neither personally harassed not physically assaulted, the jokes were privately held, yet she jumped in with her two foot, splattering the mud all over.

She was feeling uncomfortable, which is enough to file a complaint. The jokes were not private, as I've explained, since they were uttered in such a way they could be heard by others. She didn't "jump in" or "splatter mud all over", you are exeggerating and framing. She reported the guys to the organizers, publically. No need to get all hysterical and call that "splattering mud", as it sounds rediculous.

And it is obviously not her first instance in that matter.

Why is that "obvious"? And whether obvious or not, another red herring, as someone's previous conduct is of no concern to the matter at hand.

Since she still haven't learn when to shut up

Yep, you're a misogynist all right. You think women should shut up instead of speak out when confronted with unappropriate, sexist behaviour.

and when to finger point and scream for "rape"

You seem to like red herrings. Rape is not an issue. Your misogynist statements may be part of or result from rape culture, but that's not what we're discussing here.Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:30:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jal_)CommentsRE[7]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556655
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556655What we are talking, beside my so called "mysoginic" stance, is that half... HALF! 50% of the "sexist" jokes she heard were NOT sexists. She heard TWO! 2 things, one ("forking") was without sexual connotation. It just shows how much she misheard or misinterpreted things, or just wanted to make things looking worst than they really were.

She took things for herself, seeing bearded men she thought she was in a truck-drivers' bar and she scared herself to death that opposing the two felons face to face would cause her great trouble. She forgot she was in company of smart (yet joking) developers, surrounded by thousands peers.

Since PyCon was real life and she cannot operate it like her blog and ban whoever she wants whenever she feels pissed off by a misunderstood (remember, 50%) and not subtle joke (yet not truck drivers' level with foul language and stuff) she then made everything public (tweeter IS public). She might have privately mailed things, but you know...

And no, you cannot just sue whoever cause you discomfort, piss you off, whatever. Sometimes you should take it like a... man, tighten your teeth and pass on to more productive things. If she was really above all of this.

"Great men speak about ideas"
"Good men speak about things"
"Average people speak about people"

She is on the people level.

So, I perfectly understood where she were going, and it's not by defending her by calling me a misogynist. She just used and abused her own female status to enforce open doors.

What we are talking is that half... HALF! 50% of the "sexist" jokes she heard were NOT sexists.

Every sexist joke is one too many.

She heard TWO! 2 things, one ("forking") was without sexual connotation.

That's what the guys said. Her word against theirs. It's obvious why you choose the words of the guys over hers, but that doesn't make you right (or allow you to state it as fact).

It just shows how much she misheard or misinterpreted things, or just wanted to make things looking worst than they really were.

You weren't there, were you? You didn't hear what was said. Yes, you like to believe she "misheard" and "misinterpreted" things, otherwise you're whole reasoning crumbles down, but you do not have one fucking shred of evidence to back up your claims.

She took things for herself, seeing bearded men

Are you suggesting that if they weren't bearded, she wouldn't have complained? Red herring, here we go again.

she thought she was in a truck-drivers' bar and she scared herself to death that opposing the two felons face to face would cause her great trouble.

Do you think that making up things furthers your argument?

She forgot she was in company of smart (yet joking) developers, surrounded by thousands peers.

You can mind read! Now that settles it!

Since PyCon was real life and she cannot operate it like her blog and ban whoever she wants whenever she feels pissed off

Am I to understand that the cause of your wrath is the fact that she banned you from her blog? Well, I can imagine why she did that.

she then made everything public (tweeter IS public)

I never denied that, in fact I stated it as the only questionable thing she did.

And no, you cannot just sue whoever cause you discomfort, piss you off, whatever.

Well, in the US you can of course. But she isn't sueing anyone (although I hope she'll sue the company that fired her). She complained to the proper authorities (the conference organizers) who had a talk with the guys. Using hyperboles doesn't get you anywhere.

Sometimes you should take it like a... man, tighten your teeth

Typical misogynist speak. "Shut up and move on. Our prerogative to be rude, sexist and demeaning." Well it's not. You don't have a single fucking right to tell anyone to shut up, or take it like a man. You may disagree with someone, you may discuss things with someone, but you do not tell people to shut up.

"Great men speak about ideas"
"Good men speak about things"
"Average people speak about people"

And pathetic losers speak about how women should shut up and go on with their business.

She is on the people level.

Which is still waaaaay above your level, I guess.

So, I perfectly understood where she were going

"Understanding" and "wishfull thinking" are two very different things, you realize that, don't you?

and it's not by defending her by calling me a misogynist.

You are a misogynist, that's clear to everyone. And I'm not defending her by calling you one, I'm pointing out you're one by showing your false arguments. You're name-calling, using hyperboles, spreading around red herrings, using typical misogynist language ("she should have shut up and take it like a man").

She just used and abused her own female status to enforce open doors.

"female status"? Are you an MRA as well? That figures. "Misogynist rights advocate". She asked conference organizers via Twitter to talk to two guys making sexist jokes. That's all that happens. Except, apparently, in your twisted mind.Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:34:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jal_)CommentsRE[9]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556659
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556659"You're name-calling, using hyperboles, spreading around red herrings, using typical misogynist language ("she should have shut up and take it like a man")."

Fun to read that from you, whenever you're making judgments and assumptions about me. Thanks

When I said "take it like a men" and quoting a "level of people value", if she was that above the average, she could have passed above these jokes and listen to the speech being given. Yet she focused on the jokes, her "feminist" radar in full red alert, and decided she have to change the world.

Nothing misogynist to just notice she behaved like a douche she claims to fight against. And BTW, never heard of Adria before this osnews' topic.

I'm from France, and here lawyers don't promise you that you can be just a douche about anything that doesn't suit you. There's still some common sense, like leaving people making some jokes on your back (perhaps even directed at you) without raising an assault riffle and triggering.

""You're name-calling, using hyperboles, spreading around red herrings, using typical misogynist language ("she should have shut up and take it like a man")."

Fun to read that from you, whenever you're making judgments and assumptions about me. Thanks "
I didn't do any of the things I accused you of, and you didn't refute them.

When I said "take it like a men" and quoting a "level of people value", if she was that above the average, she could have passed above these jokes and listen to the speech being given.

You don't get it. That was already clear, but you drive it home every time. It's not about being "above" something. It's about two douchebags making sexist jokes (or at least jokes with a sexual connotation) and someone reporting it. Women should not have to be above anything. They should not be bothered by sexist men, ever, period. You cannot, as a man, order women to put up with your shit. You can't order anyone to put up with your shit.

Yet she focused on the jokes

It's unclear whether the guys were talking during a talk or during a break. Regardless, they obviously talked loud enough for someone sitting in the next row to overhear them.

her "feminist" radar in full red alert, and decided she have to change the world.

Again, nothing but hyperbole. I won't bother commenting.

Nothing misogynist to just notice she behaved like a douche she claims to fight against.

She's "fighting" against male chauvinist pigs, sexists and misogynists that create an unwelcome atmosphere in the tech scene, as far as I'm able to judge. She did not act like a MCP, sexist or misogynist. How you can conclude that she "behaved like a douche she claims to fight" is beyond me.

And BTW, never heard of Adria before this osnews' topic.

Yet, you claim insight in her behaviour and even read her mind!

I'm from France (...) There's still some common sense, like leaving people making some jokes on your back (perhaps even directed at you) without raising an assault riffle and triggering.

"Leaving people live" is not the same as "allowing misogynist to denigrade women". Really, think about it.Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:24:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jal_)CommentsRE[11]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556695
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556695I don't always refute your calling me a name because it's fun enough. I use sarcasm, you take it on the first degree. You call me "miso" but you also show your true 'face' with your "male chauvinist pigs, sexists and
misogynists". Something against men ? Going personal ?

It's hard for me to understand you taking her side as well without making the slighest doubt about her own version, like she tells always the truth. Like she is an innocent little girl with big glaring eyes looking at you, about to cry. I don't buy that shit !

She clearly wanted to make this affair big, since she took a picture of the guys, a grin on her face. She clearly planned, may I say calculated, that they should get banned from PyCon, at best. But that so got fired in the process took everyone at surprise, me included.

However I can understand SendGrid : if you have someone like this in your staff, how could you trust him/her in the long run not to use such a nasty trick against you or one of your collegue ? Be it from a man or a woman.

I label you (not calling you names, "misogynist" is a descriptive term, not a swearword) for the things you write.

I use sarcasm, you take it on the first degree.

You aren't using sarcasm, but mainly hyperbole, i.e. gross exagerration, assigning thoughts and actions to the woman in question that do not match her actual actions (and presumably thoughts).

You call me "miso" but you also show your true 'face' with your "male chauvinist pigs, sexists and misogynists".

I didn't call you a MCP, did I? I was talking about "male chauvinist pigs, sexists and misogynists that create an unwelcome atmosphere in the tech scene". Are you denying that MCPs, sexists and misogynists exist in the tech scene? Are you denying such people create an unwelcome atmosphere for women?

Something against men ? Going personal?

Not at all. I'm quite comfortable being one, and regularly enjoy the company of other men. But I'm also a father of two tech-minded girls, so yes, it's partially personal. And I have a strong believe in the equality of all humans, and loath those that do not (be it homophobes, misogynists, racists, elitists, religious fundamentalists or whatever category of intolarant people).

It's hard for me to understand you taking her side as well without making the slighest doubt about her own version, like she tells always the truth.

Except, she doesn't have any reason to not tell the truth in this case. The guys themselves did not deny the made a dongle joke. Most of what transpired was, not in the least due to the tweeting, out in the open.

Like she is an innocent little girl with big glaring eyes looking at you, about to cry. I don't buy that shit !

Hyperboling and red herringing again. And you don't buy what shit exactly? Did you even look at the original tweet? What she asked the organizers to do? I really can't match your anger with what actually happened, except for you being an MRA or the like.

She clearly wanted to make this affair big, since she took a picture of the guys, a grin on her face.

She took a picture of the guys for evidence, so the organizers could easily detect them. And the "grin" remark can only be read to vilify her. And you are not a misogynist, you say?

She clearly planned, may I say calculated, that they should get banned from PyCon, at best.

Did she say so? Did she request so? No. So there's no "clearly planned" or "calculated", just your twisted assumptions.

But that so got fired in the process took everyone at surprise, me included.

She got fired afterwards, for all the wrong reasons.

However I can understand SendGrid : if you have someone like this in your staff, how could you trust him/her in the long run not to use such a nasty trick against you or one of your collegue ? Be it from a man or a woman.

So you think it's a nasty trick to expose a sexist? If a woman has collegues that make sexist jokes, she's not allowed to expose that? So she was rightfully fired for fear that SendGrid employees making sexist jokes would be exposed? That's some really twisted thinking there, Kochise.Tue, 26 Mar 2013 17:29:00 GMTdonotreply@osnews.com (jal_)CommentsRE[13]: Overblown and beyond...http://www.osnews.com/thread?556742
http://www.osnews.com/thread?556742Not twisted, at least as twisted than a student rushing to his teacher or his mother to tell tales. Buhuhu !

You're speaking about twisting ? She would have twisted her body to face them and tell them to fuck off, it was a matter of, say, 20 seconds, the case would be closed.

I'm not miso, since I evaluated men on women on the same ground : both can be as stupid and untasty. What I dislike is how we have to settle laws for girls to be on par with men, like they cannot compete on pure qualification and competence.

A firm is looking for competence, willing, hard working and effective people. If really women are of that kind, then go forward. I'm a coder, I've not problem having a woman boss that supersede me in every field.