HELP!! nipping and biting 8 month old

I need help and suggestions outside of just "take the dog to obedience school" or "get more exercise" -- We have a 8 month old Sheepie, we got her at 10 weeks and she was great for about 3 days, and since then she has been a nipping nightmare. She is actually very sweet, has a nice temperment, but nips and bites and jumps at me, at my husband, at my kids. I have taken her through two obedience classes, but don't have much support from my husband who wants nothing to do with her and isn't willing to put any effort into anything but putting her out in the backyard, which she has now destroyed out of boredom. She just drives him crazy with her endless pushing, jumping and biting. She has nipped my kids to the point that my 6 yr old is afraid of her and his natural instincts just make her behavior worse, because she is constantly initiating play. I love her very much and absolutely want to keep her, but after my son was in tears tonight after yet again being nipped with bruising under the skin in an attempt to initiate play, I have basically been given an ultimatum by my husband to take care of this. And I can't have my kids getting hurt. Will this stop as she gets older, or will she just keep nipping and biting? And if so, when does it ever end?!? She has bite inhibition, but she does both full mouth and the mini-biting thing on human skin and clothing (that dogs do when they are scratching an itch, etc). Is there anything I can do -- ignoring bad behavior is NOT making it go away. Kenneling is NOT making it go away. Negative reward markers not making it go away. Now she just runs away from me when someone yelps out in pain or when she knows she has done something naughty. I have tried being the alpha dog (leashing her around the house, last to eat, last to leave out the door, etc), rewarding her for good behavior, done the "nothing is life is free" business but honestly I am the only one she listens to at all. I am also the only one that has been able to go to training classes with her. I have a training collar, and that is the only time when she is behaving, but even then she still will bite at the kids feet, ankles, anything if she can get at them. I know she is attempting in her own way to get some attention from people but it is having the complete opposite effect.

Sorry you are having a problem with your 8 month old pup. Have you talked to your breeder to see if she can add some insight on what is going one? Sometimes the parents are a big part of the temperament of the pup.

I know you said ""other suggestions outside of training and exercise""", but does she get enough exercise? Being in the yard is really not exercisising. If she is destroying your yard,(possibly a sign of boredom) is she not being supervised while she is out?? Does she get some long walks, maybe jogging? This can really help in a fiesty pup! Expending all that puppy energy!!

Possibly,,, she is bored? Is there something you can do with her to exercise her mind as well. Sheepdogs are working dogs...and even though she is young, I am sure teaching her tricks, or playing games with her will help her focus and attention span.

The herding instinct in an OES is very strong and they want to, have to,need to herd!!! I imagine this is what is happening with your children, especially if they try to run!

If classes do not seem to be helping, maybe your family would benefit by private lessons, in your house, so your hubby and children can learn how to deal with her.

It is very hard to be the only one in the house who will discipline her. Can you talk to your husband to take a more proactive role in this pups training?

I know how hard it must be to have all this responsiblity on just you! Honestly, the whole house needs to be involved~~~including people who visit!

Do you know of any other sheepdog owners in your area that you can call for support and maybe play dates???

I am sure there will many more suggestions from the members of the forum..good luck, keep us posted..

and~~~~~ Welcome from St. Louis!!!! I hope you decide to stay with us, this is a great place for support and sheepie fun!!!!

Ok, this is not for everyone, and I know that some people love Cesar Milan and others hate him, but I've got to give the guy credit. We've followed one of his principles for about a week and a half now, and have gone from having two loving but insanely jumpy, barky, somewhat (playfully) nippy, in your face dogs to having two dogs who can behave well enough to roam free, off leash during a dinner party. (We have not yet attempted the crazy kid gues thing...I'll give that more time.)

It's one simple concept. Nothing happens at all until the dogs are in a calm submissive state. The first time we waited at least twenty minutes. They were both leashed, and hysterically trying to get to anyone and everyone. My husband stood, silently, and let them pull, jump, etc until they both gave up and sat.

He still didn't move. (Did I mention he remained perfectly calm? Something I don't come by easily, but I've learned to do.)

One got up. The other sat down.

He still didn't move.

I thought he was crazy.

But he waited until both dogs laid down and their muscles relaxed. (By the way, he issued absolutely no commands. He waited for them to submit on their own.)

Twenty minutes later we had two calm dogs who were taken off their leashes, walked into the kitchen beside my husband and greeted guests politely. I did NOT believe that was possible.

They did well. An hour or so later they started playing (with each other, no harm there) but my father ran over and it was game on in their minds. So, out came the leash, silence, and this time it only took eight or ten minutes. They regained composure, and freedom for the remainder of the evening. They even slept in the living room in the middle of the guests.

We now wait, silently at the door before putting on leashes, at the open door before leaving, before getting into the car, before approaching someone on the street, etc. Now it takes seconds.

It's been like a miracle. We do not do anything with them until they are in the "calm submissive state" and it's worked great.

In your case it would mean, however, commitment from all family members. Throwing the dog out in the backyard is making the situation worse. (I completely understand how frustrated you are, by the way.) All the adults have to be a part of this, as well as the children. Unfortunately, having a family member simply opt out will defeat this completely. And, for the next little while at least the kids must learn to be calm around the dog. They herd, and this means chasing running/squealing kids. They do, after all, resemble self propelled squeaky toys.

You can love Cesar or hate him (I'm somewhere in the middle) but we've been following this one thing with one hundred percent consistency for about a week and a half, and it's been wonderful. I've even been able to walk my beasts myself. I couldn't even walk ONE of them on my own (too strong for me) two weeks ago.

I think it clearly establishes dominance, but it also makes sure that brains are settled and engaged before anything good happens. Mine are a little older than yours - 13 months and two years old, but this has really made a difference. (And, our thirteen month old was a rescue who had never lived inside a house before he arrived here about six weeks ago. He had a lot to learn, and we're still facing each new hurdle as we go along, but he is doing an awesome job of learning.)

Anyway, I don't know if you find this helpful, but it worked (or rather is working) for us beautifully. And now that they "get it" adding a new situaiton or expectation is almost seamless.

Good luck. I'm sure you'll get lots of great advice here. If this doesn't work for you, maybe someone else has another approach you'll like. At eight months of age, there's still plenty of hope.

you see - eight months old and nipping and jumping is normal for a sheepdog. When we preach training, it not just the classroom the major part is home practice and management. As you have learned - this is not a breed to be put outside or in another room to be left to their own devices.

at that age everything you do with them is part of the training. And believe me, they need a lot of exercise. I used to walk my two for a minimum of an hour every morning before work at that age. Obviously it wasn't all walking, we would stop and do sits and stays, recalls etc. They really need their minds occupied - or well they dig up the back yard, or the couch, or whatever.

When we preach training or exercise, its because we know its what works. But I also believe if not everyone in the home is on the same page, it's very very hard to make it work. (I went through a bit of this with Dan as well)

hi, some more info that might be helpful.

The Bite Stops Here Dogs in Canada Annual, 1991 Puppies should be encouraged to play-bite – so you can teach them when to stop. By Dr. Ian Dunbar

Puppies bite, and thank goodness they do. Puppy biting is a normal and natural puppy behavior. In fact, it is the pup that does not mouth and bite much as a youngster that augers ill for the future. Puppy play-biting is the means by which dogs learn to develop bite inhibition, which is absolutely essential later in life.

The combination of weak jaws with extremely sharp, needle-like teeth and the puppy penchant for biting results in numerous play-bites which, although painful, seldom cause serious harm. Thus, the developing pup receives ample necessary feedback regarding the force of its bites before it develops strong jaws – which could inflict considerable injury. The greater the pup’s opportunity to play-bite with people, other dogs and other animals, the better the dog’s bite inhibition as an adult. For puppies that do not grow up with the benefit of regular and frequent interaction with other dogs and other animals, the responsibility of teaching bite inhibition lies with the owner.

Certainly, puppy biting behavior most eventually be eliminated: we cannot have an adult dog playfully mauling family, friends and strangers in the manner of a young puppy. However, it is essential that puppy biting behaviour is gradually and progressively eliminated via a systematic four-step process. With some dogs, it is easy to teach the four phases in sequence. With others, the puppy biting may be so severe that the owners will need to embark on all four stages at once. However, it is essential that the pup first learn to inhibit the force of its bites before the biting behaviour is eliminated altogether.

Inhibiting the force of bites

No painful bites The first item on the agenda is to stop the puppy bruising people. It is not necessary to reprimand the pup and, certainly, physical punishments are contra-indicated, since they tend to make some pups more excited, and insidiously erode the puppy’s temperament and trust in the owner. But it is essential to let the pup know when it hurts. A simple "ouch!" is usually sufficient. The volume of the "ouch" should vary according to the dog’s mental make-up; a fairly soft "ouch" will suffice for sensitive critters, but a loud "OUCH!!!" may be necessary for a wild and woolly creature. During initial training, even shouting may make the pup more excited, as does physical confinement. An extremely effective technique with boisterous pups is to call the puppy a "jerk!" and leave the room and shut the door. Allow the pup time to reflect on the loss of its favourite human chew toy immediately following the hard nip, and then return to make up. It is important to indicate that you still love the pup – it is the painful bites which are objectionable. Instruct the pup to come and sit, and then resume playing. Ideally, the pup should have been taught not to hurt people well before it is three months old.

It is much better for the owner to leave the pup than to try to physically restrain and remove it to a confinement area at a time when it is already out of control. If one pup bites another too hard, the bitee yelps and playing is postponed while the injured party licks its wounds. The biter learns that hard bites curtail an otherwise enjoyable play session. Hence, the bite learns to bite more softly when the play session resumes.

No jaw pressure at all The second stage of training is to eliminate bite pressure entirely, even thought the bites no longer hurt. When the puppy is munching away, wait for a nibble that is harder than the rest and respond as if it really hurt: "Ouch, you worm! Gently! That hurt me you bully!" The dog begins to think "Good Lord! These humans are so mamby pamby I’ll have to be really careful when mouthing their delicate skins." And that’s precisely what we want the dog to think – so he’ll be extremely careful when playing with people. Ideally, the puppy should no longer be exerting any pressure when mouthing by the time it is four to five months old.

Inhibiting the incidence of mouthing

Always stop mouthing when requested. Once the puppy has been taught to gently mouth rather than bite, it is time to reduce the frequency of mouthing behaviour and teach the pup that mouthing is okay until requested to stop. Why? Because it is inconvenient to try to drink a cup of tea, or to answer the telephone, with 50 pounds of pup dangling from your wrist, that’s why.

It is better to first teach the "OFF!" command using a food lure (as demonstrated in the Sirius video*). The deal is this: "If you don’t touch this food treat for just two seconds after I softly say "Off", I will say "Take it" and you can have the treat." Once the pup has mastered this simple task, up the ante to three seconds of non-contact, and then five, eight, 12, 20 and so on. Count out the seconds and praise the dog with each second: "Good dog one, good dog two, good dog three…" and so forth. If the pup touches the treat before being told to take it, shout "Off!" and start the count from zero again. The pup quickly learns that it can not have the treat until it has not touched it for, say, eight seconds – the quickest way to get the treat is not to touch it for the first eight seconds. In addition, the regular handfeeding during this exercise helps preserve the pup’s soft mouth.

Once the pup understnads the "Off!" request, it may be used effectively when the puppy is mouthing. Say "Off!" and praise the pup and give it a treat when it lets go. Remember, the essence of this exercise is to practise stopping the dog from mouthing – each time the pup obediently ceases and desists, resume playing once more. Stop and start the session many times over. Also, since the puppy wants to mouth, the best reward for stopping mouthing is to allow it to mouth again. When you decide to stop the mouthing session altogether, heel the pup to the kitchen and give it an especially tasty treat.

If ever the pup refuses to release your hand when requested, shout "Off!", rapidly extricate your hand and storm out of the room mumbling, "Right. That’s done it, you jerk! You’ve ruined it! Finish! Over! No more!" and shut the door in the dog’s face. Give the pup a couple of minutes on its own and then go back to call the pup to come and sit and make up. But no more mouthing for at least a couple of hours.

In addition to using "Off!" during bite inhibition training, the request has many other useful applications: not to touch the cat, the Sunday roast on the table, the table, the baby’s soiled diapers, the baby, an aggressive dog, a fecal deposit of unknown denomination… Not only does this exercise teach the "Off!" request, but also to "Take it" on request.

Never start mouthing unless requested. By the time the pup is five months old, it must have a mouth as soft as a 14-year-old working Lab; it should never exert any pressure when mouthing, and the dog should immediately stop mouthing when requested to do so by any family member. Unsolicited mouthing is utterly inappropriate from an older adolescent or an adult dog. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a six-month-old dog to approach a child and commence mouthing her arm, no matter how gentle the mouthing or how friendly and playful the dog’s intentions. This is the sort of situation which gives parents the heebie-jeebies and frightens the living daylights out of the mouthee. At five months of age, at the very latest, the dog should be taught never to touch any person’s body – not even clothing – with its jaws unless specifically requested.

Whether or not the dog will ever be requested to mouth people depends on the individual owner. Owners that have the mental largesse of a toothpick quickly let play-mouthing get out of control, which is why many dog training texts strongly recommend not indulging in games such as play-fighting. However, it is essential to continue bite inhibition exercises, otherwise the dog’s bite will begin to drift and become harder as the dog grows older. For such people, I recommend that they regularly hand-feed the dog and clean its teeth – exercises that involve the human hand in the dog’s mouth. On the other hand, for owners who have a full complement of common sense, there is no better way to maintain the dog’s soft mouth than by play-fighting with the dog on a regular basis. However, to prevent the dog from getting out of control and to fully realize the many benefits of play-fighting, the owner must play by the rules and teach the dog to play by the rules. (Play-fighting rules are described in detail in our Preventing Aggression behaviour bookelt.*)

Play-fighting teaches the dog to mouth hands only (hands are extremely sensitive to pressure) and never clothing. Since shoelaces, trousers and hair have no neurons and cannot feel, the owner cannot provide the necessary feedback that the dog is once more beginning to mouth too hard. The game also teaches the dog that it must adhere to rules regarding its jaws, regardless of how worked up it may be. Basically, play-fighting teaches the owner to practice controlling the dog when it is excited. It is important to refine such control in a structured setting, before a real-life situation occurs.

In addition, play-fighting quickly becomes play-training. Starting the games with a training period, i.e., with the dog under control in a down-stay, produces utterly solid stays at a time when the dog is excited in vibrant anticipation of the game. Similarly, frequent stopping the game for short periods and integrating multiple training interludes (especially heel work and recalls) into the game motivates the dog to provide eager and speedy responses. Each time the owner stops the game, he or she may use the resumption of play as a reward for bona fide obedience. Everything’s fun!

Potential problems

Inhibiting incidence before force A common mistake is to punish the pup in an attempt to get it to stop biting altogether. At the best, the puppy no longer mouths those family members who can effectively punish the dog but, instead, the pup directs its mouthing sprees toward those family members who cannot control it, e.g., a child. To worsen matters, parents are often completely unaware of the child’s plight because the pup does not mouth adults. At worst, the puppy no longer mouths people at all. Hence, its education about the force of its bite stops right there. All is fine until someone accidentally shuts the car door on the dog’s tail, whereupon the dog bites and punctures the skin, because the dog had insufficient bite inhibition.

Puppies that don’t bite Shy dogs seldom socialize or play with other dogs or strangers. Hence, they do not play-bite and hence, they learn nothing about the power of their jaws. The classic case history is of a dog that never mouthed or bit as a pup and never bit anyone as an adult – that is, until an unfamiliar child tripped and fell on the dog. The first bite of the dog’s career left deep puncture wounds, because the dog had developed no bite inhibition. With shy puppies, socialization is of paramount importance, and time is of the essence. The puppy must quickly be socialized sufficiently, so that it commences playing (and hence, biting) before it is four-and-a-half months old.

If a puppy does not frequently mouth and bite and/or does not occasionally bite hard, it is an emergency. The puppy must learn its limits. And it can only learn its limits by exceeding them during development and receiving the appropriate feedbacks.

Ian Fraser Dunbar lives in California and has a doctorate in animal behaviour. He is author of the book Dog Behaviour and 15 Behaviour Booklets; he will be holding seminars in Canada in 1991.

I missed how old your kids are. Are they old enough to understand the training and can they participate??? If they are 8 or so can't they work with you watching them and the puppy to make sure that everyone is in control and actiing correctly. If your kids are younger, even watching you working with the puppy may help them understand how they should act around the puppy and what to do when he misbehaves. The more people in the house that work with the puppy the more success you should have. More re-enforcement of the messages and everyone doing things the same way will help the little guy learn. Did your kids go to the training sessions with you to watch?? Your kids could go on the walks with you as well and near the end of the walk when the pupper is tired could they try taking the lead with you on the other side to keep things going correctly. The sooner the puppy learns that he has to listen to ALL uprights the better even the shorter uprights

traciels28 wrote:

Ok, this is not for everyone, and I know that some people love Cesar Milan and others hate him, but I've got to give the guy credit. We've followed one of his principles for about a week and a half now, and have gone from having two loving but insanely jumpy, barky, somewhat (playfully) nippy, in your face dogs to having two dogs who can behave well enough to roam free, off leash during a dinner party. (We have not yet attempted the crazy kid gues thing...I'll give that more time.)

It's one simple concept. Nothing happens at all until the dogs are in a calm submissive state. The first time we waited at least twenty minutes. They were both leashed, and hysterically trying to get to anyone and everyone. My husband stood, silently, and let them pull, jump, etc until they both gave up and sat.

He still didn't move. (Did I mention he remained perfectly calm? Something I don't come by easily, but I've learned to do.)

One got up. The other sat down.

He still didn't move.

I thought he was crazy.

But he waited until both dogs laid down and their muscles relaxed. (By the way, he issued absolutely no commands. He waited for them to submit on their own.)

Twenty minutes later we had two calm dogs who were taken off their leashes, walked into the kitchen beside my husband and greeted guests politely. I did NOT believe that was possible.

They did well. An hour or so later they started playing (with each other, no harm there) but my father ran over and it was game on in their minds. So, out came the leash, silence, and this time it only took eight or ten minutes. They regained composure, and freedom for the remainder of the evening. They even slept in the living room in the middle of the guests.

We now wait, silently at the door before putting on leashes, at the open door before leaving, before getting into the car, before approaching someone on the street, etc. Now it takes seconds.

It's been like a miracle. We do not do anything with them until they are in the "calm submissive state" and it's worked great.

In your case it would mean, however, commitment from all family members. Throwing the dog out in the backyard is making the situation worse. (I completely understand how frustrated you are, by the way.) All the adults have to be a part of this, as well as the children. Unfortunately, having a family member simply opt out will defeat this completely. And, for the next little while at least the kids must learn to be calm around the dog. They herd, and this means chasing running/squealing kids. They do, after all, resemble self propelled squeaky toys.

You can love Cesar or hate him (I'm somewhere in the middle) but we've been following this one thing with one hundred percent consistency for about a week and a half, and it's been wonderful. I've even been able to walk my beasts myself. I couldn't even walk ONE of them on my own (too strong for me) two weeks ago.

I think it clearly establishes dominance, but it also makes sure that brains are settled and engaged before anything good happens. Mine are a little older than yours - 13 months and two years old, but this has really made a difference. (And, our thirteen month old was a rescue who had never lived inside a house before he arrived here about six weeks ago. He had a lot to learn, and we're still facing each new hurdle as we go along, but he is doing an awesome job of learning.)

Anyway, I don't know if you find this helpful, but it worked (or rather is working) for us beautifully. And now that they "get it" adding a new situaiton or expectation is almost seamless.

Good luck. I'm sure you'll get lots of great advice here. If this doesn't work for you, maybe someone else has another approach you'll like. At eight months of age, there's still plenty of hope.

So funny of course the second child doesn't get as much attention as the first and I have been letting Langley get away with more than Laika ever did. So today after reading your post I decide that at work when I go to take the dogs for a walk I will wait until they are calm before we leave the kennel. I only have an hour so I always want to get the walk started and don't take the time to wait until Langley calms down. He likes to jump; more like boing up and down and sometimes bite my arm. So I go out there with my purpose in mind I will stand there until I get calm dogs. Guess what... nobody bounced! I didn't even have to wait at all! haha Just having a calm energy can be enough. I usually feel frustrated because I wanted to get going and they (him) behaved this time!

You might have to just add some extra time in your day (I know easier said than done) but in the long run it will pay off. I agree you might have to wait out the behaviour you would like and be patient and exercise I know you mentioned that you wanted ideas other than that but that is your key. And training can be done during the walk. My walks first couple minutes is used to get Langley to walk nicely Laika is fine. then the both walk beside or behind me unless allow them in front to take a sniff and potty break. All I do is walk in front of them and block their path and hook my leg in front of him and push back... works for me. I don't use choke chains. Just a gentle leader harness.

Good luck.

Quote:

In your case it would mean, however, commitment from all family members. Throwing the dog out in the backyard is making the situation worse. (I completely understand how frustrated you are, by the way.) All the adults have to be a part of this, as well as the children. Unfortunately, having a family member simply opt out will defeat this completely. And, for the next little while at least the kids must learn to be calm around the dog. They herd, and this means chasing running/squealing kids. They do, after all, resemble self propelled squeaky toys.

I think that's absolutely true. You really need full cooperation with everyone, otherwise the dog gets mixed messages and gets confused and, as a result, the "correct" behavior is never learned.

It sounds like this dog has a lot of energy and demands a lot of attention. I know you love her and want to be able to keep her but it also may be more than you're able to handle since it sounds like you're the one who has to put all the effort and discipline in on top of running your family. It's a lot of work just to have a dog let alone a dog plus small kids. It really could be that she's just not a good fit for your family. I know you've had her since she was young and it would hurt to let her go, but perhaps she'd be happiest with another family who could devote a lot of time and attention just to her. I am certainly not saying that you aren't trying and that you don't care but this is a common problem with OES that end up in rescue because they can be a little rough with young children and certain dogs just don't mesh well. Please know that I'm not trying to make you feel bad or approach you with any negativity, I'm just thinking about what, realistically, might be the best for the dog and your family. If you do end up considering rehoming her, please contact an OES rescue and they'll make sure that she winds up in a great home that will be a good match for her.

Oliver was a nipper for a long time until we started yelling ouch! I was black and blue until he was almost 8 mo. After weeks of really expressing my pain at his nips, he soon was so surprised by our expression of pain that he just quit. Sometimes now,at one year, he will start to nip(or bat!) and all I have to do is say Ouch! like I really mean it and he looks at me like he is very sorry he even thought about it. I have to say that he is half grt pyrenees too, so that might make a difference.

Please listen to ButtersStotch. Very good advice. I've been in this breed since 1985. We have no problem placing a pup in a family with very young children. But we only do so if we feel all family members are willing to do what basic training is necessary. We can pretty well tell this by how the kids are trained themselves when the family comes to visit the litter & how much interaction with the pup there is by both adults & the kids. In your case, I feel you are being overwhelmed by trying to be supermom & take care of everything. The pup needs to have a clear understanding of what is expected & it has to be consistent so it can learn it. If your husband isn't willing to do so, the dog may never learn & just become more frustrated in trying to please. Sometimes, as much as it hurts, the best thing for everyone is to admit the pup is not a good fit for the family at this time. If you come to this conclusion the 1st thing to do is contact your breeder about returning the pup to them for rehoming. If this isn't an option, please contact an approved OES rescue so they can evaluate the pup & find the best home for it. If you need help in finding one of them, let us know. We can direct you. That way it isn't bounced from home to home to home until it hopefully finds one that suits.

Just so you know....my eight month old sheepie made me SOB cry every day!!!! I don't mean that the puppy mildly upset me. The biting, bruising, jumping, barking, bullying was SO MUCH MORE then I could cope with.

PLEASE LISTEN.....it's a phase. 8 month old sheepies are teething and WAY too big for their britches.

the only thing that saved us was puppy day care!!!! It exhausted her! And the other older dogs teach her WAY FASTER about what is and isn't acceptable. If you can regularly associate her with an older playful dog, her behavior will improve. I would take Chiquita to puppy day care one day whenever I could....mabey twice a month, mabey. Then at least four days out of the week Chiquita played at least an hour with an older dog. It kept that crazy, crazy energy at bay.

I agree completely with the previous poster's suggestion about finding an older dog (or dogs) who can play regularly with yours. They learn so much from each other. That won't replace all the hard work the whole family needs to do, but it will help to drain the puppy's energy and the pup will learn a lot about acceptable behaviour from others.

Keeping up with obedience classes is also a great idea. We tried three different places until we found one we really liked (forty five minute drive there and again back of course LOL...couldn't possible like one close by.) The one we go to encourages the dogs socialize before and after the formal instruction part, and has them interact (distraction training/socialization) at various intervals. Our two bozos have learned that there's a GSD who does NOT find them charming. They treat her very differently (respect and some distance until invited) than the rotti who loves them and rolls on the floor with them in a joyful mass of fur and teeth.

Our evil puppy (who isn't really very evil anymore) is on his sixth round. I can't say they changed a lot of the day to day behaviours, but he loves it and comes home exhausted. What changed everything was our calm submissive energy stuff. It has really been (for us) the holy grail of doggie behaviour.

Hi, I am new to the forum but have been reading the information for a while now. I don't know that I can help you, but I want to try.

I want to say that I'm likely to make a few upset, but honestly I do not mean to.

First off, I have had dogs my entire life and never once have I taken them to obiedience training. I have yet to see one thing they can do that I can't do myself.

I have four dogs. A collie, a bearded collie, a bichon and a 4 month old OES. So, I think I'm pretty experienced in larger, hyper breeds. lol

The problem you are having is simple. Its not lack of exercise, or obedience training, but lack of time. You can exercise an OES for hours and even days but they will always out last you. It's just their nature.

You get out of a dog what you put into a dog.

My OES is a little over 4 months old. Her name is "Lily". I kid you not, for the first month I had her I thought she was going to think her name was "NO", that is how much I had to say it. She bit my legs as I walked. Grabbing my jeans, or shoes, you name it! She jumped on everyone, and smacked us continually with her paws. It sucked, for lack of a better way to describe it. She was a complete maniac! Typical puppy behavior, only on a larger scale since OES puppies are huge. lol

Lily is certainly not a perfect puppy and still goes balistic, but because I continually stay on her about her bad or inappropiate behavior she has stopped doing most of the jumping, chewing, and biting.

You see, its not just telling them "NO" once or twice. Its about consistantly telling them no as many times as it takes for them to figure it out and stop doing it. I spent 30 days doing this and still have to get on to her about certain things. It gets very old, very quickly, but it does pay off.

Unfortunetly every time your husband tries to gain control of the situation he is putting your dog outside. All that is doing is avoiding the problem and creating another one in the process. Most outdoor dogs are not well behaved. The reason for this is because they have little contact with people. They are given food and water, but quality time is truly what is needed in order to have a well behaved pet.

It is much easier to just put the dog outside when they are misbehaving than to deal with the situation at hand, but that doesn't stop the problem. All that does is make them want to act up more in order to get attention. Like children, negative attention is better than no attention at all.

I know you have small children and a husband who isn't exactly helpful in the dog training stuff but if you can stand it, take an hour, like while you are cooking and put your dog on a leash. Make her sit in that kitchen with you. If it takes you 500 times of pushing her butt down in order to get her to sit, than do it! Give your kids doggy treats and have them help you. If you do this for even 30 minutes you will see a difference.

You can not let your OES get away with bad behavior. If its 3:00 a.m. in the morning and she is doing something she shouldn't be doing, you have to get out of bed and correct her. It's about consistancy. If you let her get away with it once, she will do it again.

I know this completely sucks, and I have no doubt you are wishing your dog would just suddenly become passive and sweet, but that just isn't going to happen unless you take the time every single day to make her that way.

I take Lily to work with me. Trust me there are times when putting her in a crate and leaving her at home would be much easier, but if I do that........ What am I teaching her? Absolutely nothing! I'm just not much of a crate girl. Infact we crated her at night for the first week we had her and haven't put her in there since. Surprisingly I still have all my furniture and rugs in tact! lol

I am sorry this is so long but I really want you to understand that all dogs are troublesome until they are taught not to be. It is you spending countless hours disciplining your OES that will stop this behavior. Not an obedience trainer, or long walks. Just you.

Hang in there! I know its hard, but you have lots of great, knowledgable people on here to talk to. So, take a deep breath, and try try again......

Guest wrote:

hi, , but a loud "OUCH!!!" may be necessary for a wild and woolly creature. .

Sorry but that made me laugh

Must mean Sheepies

how do i teach my deaf dog to stop biting? he is mouthing constantly and its getting more intense, i have tried our "no" signal but he doesnt tend to be looking at me with my arm in his mouth!! i realise its a phase, but, i take him to work with me so i dont want him biting colleagues or customers. he will calm down when i put my hands behind my back, but starts again when i pull them out again.

Charleysez, I know your pain. Literally. Teaching bite inhibition was one of the toughest things we had to do with Oscar. We should have known when we saw him at the breeder's and he was hanging off his sister's ear as she was screaming bloody murder...... It took a long time before Oscar understood that chewing on humans was unacceptable. (I think he liked the taste... )

We used a multi-pronged approach. First, when he bit skin, we made a big, dramatic ouchy face (miming "OW") and immediately stopped playing. Then we signed "no" and "all done" signalling to him that play was over. We then inserted an appropriate chew toy in his mouth. Over and over and over again. It took months of consistent efforts to see some rewards, but he finally got it when he was about six months old.

Laurie and Gator Boy

rheumgirl wrote:

Will this stop as she gets older, or will she just keep nipping and biting? And if so, when does it ever end?!? She has bite inhibition, but she does both full mouth and the mini-biting thing on human skin and clothing (that dogs do when they are scratching an itch, etc).

I have a training collar, and that is the only time when she is behaving, but even then she still will bite at the kids feet, ankles, anything if she can get at them.

The play nibbles are attention seeking in my opinion. I have one that does this to my son when he comes over. And I agree... everyone in the home must be willing to train and set limits the same way or the inconsistency will be confusing to her. I also agree that just putting her outside is avoiding the opportunity to yet again provide training and limits. One vet described it like this... each training session, no matter how brief, is like one drop of water in a glass. Eventually you have enough "drops" to fill it and achieve the desired results. How many drops it takes varies based on each individual dog.

What type of a training collar are you using?

They can be so totally exasperating sometimes... but they are really worth all the effort if you can get everyone involved.

rheumgirl wrote:

I love her very much and absolutely want to keep her, but after my son was in tears tonight after yet again being nipped with bruising under the skin in an attempt to initiate play, I have basically been given an ultimatum by my husband to take care of this. And I can't have my kids getting hurt.

One thing I did want to add and it's not an easy choice but rescue may be one option.

Thanks EVERYONE for all your wonderful advice! I have learned SO much. First of all -- WE were creating the problem! The dog, although a pain, was just trying to get attention from us. And everyone in our family not being on the same page was making it that much worse. I could not imagine giving her up! SO, here is what has happened since then...

We had an intervention with her, so to speak. Our wonderful friend who used to train dogs took her for the weekend and got to know her and had her around other kids and around other dogs!

Where I was taking her to class, we were taught that ignored behavior goes away. If she bit at you, to turn away and ignore her. Unfortunately, that didn't work with her and she just tried harder to get more attention -- which perpetuated the cycle. So my friend taught me some easy corrections to stop biting/nipping and jumping behavior -- our Bella is CRAZY responsive to minimal corrections. We have been working with her the past week and our dog is a DREAM! She doesn't nip.

Increasing her exercise has helped too! The reason that I had asked for other info than training and exercise were twofold -- one because our previous trainer had recommended that I not walk my dog unless I was "working with her one on one", and that just wasn't possible with 3 kids (ages 8,6,1) -- and secondly, because I thought that was crap and not working anyway so I had already committed to increasing her exercise!

So, those minor changes have resulted in a dog that my husband says is "amazing" and my six year old no longer is afraid of, but will go and play with. A dog that I can have out of her kennel at night and goes outside because she wants to and has had enough attention. Even my husband has been intentional about giving her affection! So, you are all right, it isn't easy, but it SO HELPS to have some sort of idea what to do!

Thanks everyone!!!

Well done you!! but come on, what are these easy corrections?? i need to know, my lad is knawing away like crazy at the moment.

She basically had us take her by the nape of the neck and take her down to the floor -- gently but with authority with a mamma dog growl in our voice using the command "off." and it had to be done consistently by every person in the house. and with ANY mouthing (even in play) to take her muzzle in our hands and growl "no bite" -- we had been doing the latter but not with the muzzle hold and not with consistency.

this might be helpful since your dog cannot hear the commands, but can tell if it is unacceptable behavior. again, all these things are done gently and only when the behavior is out of control -- and we have hardly had to use it at all. kind of like a mom or brother pup that says "that's enough now, don't do that anymore." it is nice because it is without ANY human aggression and followed with lots of love and kisses. turning away from the dog and ignoring her or walking into another room was having the opposite effect with us.

There have been so many great posts! Thanks again everyone!

wishing you luck.-------------------------------learning as we go, but loving the journey!!

thank you. i have tried holding his muzzle but he thinks thats part of the game!!

sixpence came up with diluted lemon juice squirting, which has had a startling effect, , in more ways than one. i even rubbed some in my hands and that worked brilliantly for about an hour.... so will keep trying.