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Re: The Former Player Thread

The Pacers developed Miles. All you've got to do is watch him try Roy's hook and the way he defends the rim to realize that.

Which might be another thread topic, about how great the Pacers are about developing talent. Roy/PG/Lance/Miles/OJ. The list just keeps getting longer and longer.

I think this proves that our FO, especially Bird, have been doing a really nice job for several years in a row on those low picks to get solid rotational talent to all-star level talent players. Even the players who were previous bird picks from recent memory have been solid from other teams. Miles, Tyler, Rush pre-injury, AJ before John Wall's return. And of course our own players.

Re: The Former Player Thread

Haven't watched the whole game though, but the last Phoenix game I saw most of his made shots are closer to the basket, and had more highlight plays at this time of the year than last year. So I'm guessing that on most games he's pretty much less of a jump shooter and more of an inside player slashing and cutting and just getting those points closer to the basket.

As for Miles, I'm pretty impressed. Just going from a player who can't even get consistent garbage time to a really solid starting center is really impressive. Just a win-win trade for us and the Suns, following up from a win-win trade with the Spurs from several years back.

I know exactly which game you're talking about, and yeah, he did a nice job of finding his points inside, but that game was more of an exception than the norm. According to Synergy:

He's had 89 plays this year
-21 on spot up (keep in mind this can include a pump fake+drive)
-28 in transition
-1 cut

He's been great in transition, solid spotting up, and then small sample size in pretty much every other category. They aren't designing inside stuff for him, most of it is coming off simple drives after a guy closes out too hard on a spot up shot, or in transition. NBA.com stats have him taking 53 jumpers to 17 shots inside the paint, so he's still doing far more jump shooting than anything else.

Re: The Former Player Thread

I know exactly which game you're talking about, and yeah, he did a nice job of finding his points inside, but that game was more of an exception than the norm. According to Synergy:

He's had 89 plays this year
-21 on spot up (keep in mind this can include a pump fake+drive)
-28 in transition
-1 cut

He's been great in transition, solid spotting up, and then small sample size in pretty much every other category. They aren't designing inside stuff for him, most of it is coming off simple drives after a guy closes out too hard on a spot up shot, or in transition. NBA.com stats have him taking 53 jumpers to 17 shots inside the paint, so he's still doing far more jump shooting than anything else.

Last night's 3 after faking out Anthony Davis was great.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Good point. There's no doubt that practicing here for a year improved his skills. So he has sort of had the best scenario. He practiced with an elite team for a year, then took his improved skills to a place where he could actually use them. I wasn't high on drafting him and never dreamed that he could play like this. I admit that I was wrong and am glad for him.

The development of all of these young players is just the symptom of franchise whose culture is shaped by a guy like Larry Bird. It doesn't surprise me that someone who has succeeded in every level of basketball knows exactly how to pick the right guys out.

Re: The Former Player Thread

The development of all of these young players is just the symptom of franchise whose culture is shaped by a guy like Larry Bird. It doesn't surprise me that someone who has succeeded in every level of basketball knows exactly how to pick the right guys out.

I think the focus on character really helps this point. Teams fall in love with talent, but talent doesn't mean much if you have an immature dumbass.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

Re: The Former Player Thread

I think the focus on character really helps this point. Teams fall in love with talent, but talent doesn't mean much if you have an immature dumbass.

True. Where Bird has succeeded is that he has found the perfect talent/character balance.

O'Neal/Artest/Jackson/Tinsley were obviously a talented bunch, but they had character flaws on a catastrophic level.

Murphy/Dunleavy/Ford all seemed like decent enough guys, but they didn't make us a very talented basketball team.

Bird has succeeded with this team because he managed to build a roster that has both talent and high character. He drafted talented high character guys like Danny, Roy, and Paul. He added strong proven high character vets in David West and Hill. All of this meant that he was able to take a chance on Lance because he was a low cost second rounder who we were putting on a team with very high character guys. That's way different than building a roster of O'Neal/Artest/Jackson/Tinsley, which was destined to blowup at a catastrophic price to the franchise. Bird knew that Lance would have a great chance of succeeding if surrounded by mature high player guys, and if he didn't then we could have just dumped him at virtually no cost.

Re: The Former Player Thread

I think the focus on character really helps this point. Teams fall in love with talent, but talent doesn't mean much if you have an immature dumbass.

Over the summer, around draft time, Pritchard did a radio interview with someone, JMV I think, and he got asked a generic "so what do you look for in a prospect?" type question. He immediately said cultural fit and went on to say it a handful of more times in his 30 second or so answer. "Cultural fit" can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people, Bird's the guy that drafted both Lance and Plumlee, you'd probably be more hard pressed to find two more different personalities. But they've both clearly got a dedication to the craft and, after a little nurturing maybe, have their priorities in order.

That's the kind of stuff that makes what we've done hard to replicate, the personality assessment and chemistry fit stuff. I've never been a big fan of former players getting jobs just because "he played, he knows better," there're plenty of examples where that's just wrong. But Bird's just different I guess. Not that Bird's a clairvoyant or anything, there's always a good deal of luck involved, but I think it's pretty undeniable that he's got a sixth sense when it comes to seeking out guys that can mesh. That's one of the art forms that differentiates a successful NBA executive from Joe Schmoe on a message board that thinks all it takes to run a team is getting good players.

edit: also, there's not a lot of franchises that would let Bird finish out his building plan, or hell, probably even start it. and if it's Random Executive X he'd get even less time. I bet a lot of current execs could build a strong team given as much time as it takes, well, maybe, but they don't have the luxury of job security.

Re: The Former Player Thread

In the highlight packages of his games so far, Plumlee looks far better than Roy did in all aspects of the game. What a difference being with the Pacers during the Vogel era and going against Roy in practices has made for Plumlee compared to what Roy had to go through. Plumlee looks like a young Tim Duncan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs are willing to part with a fairly significant veteran player to nab Plumlee so that Duncan can help polish him into their center / pf of the future.

Re: The Former Player Thread

In the highlight packages of his games so far, Plumlee looks far better than Roy did in all aspects of the game. What a difference being with the Pacers during the Vogel era and going against Roy in practices has made for Plumlee compared to what Roy had to go through. Plumlee looks like a young Tim Duncan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs are willing to part with a fairly significant veteran player to nab Plumlee so that Duncan can help polish him into their center / pf of the future.

Re: The Former Player Thread

Bit of an over statement, he's gone from garbage to the next Tim Duncan in just over a year.

This was a championship move, Luis has helped the Pacers win at least a couple of the 8 games so far.

Plumlee looks decent, but lets wait until either reality hits or people take the Suns seriously. Them and the 76ers are the fun, hot teams that maybe could continue and sneak in the playoffs, or flame out really fast (no pun intended there) and win 20 games. You have to part w/ young talent that you'd ideally want to keep in order to win the big prize, especially a team like Indiana where most free-agents don't swarm to.

A 30th pick, or late 20s pick by the end of the season probably, was just mainly going to be more money towards the luxury tax, and a mediocre player at best. Gerald Green was a dent in the cap space for 2 more years, and didn't fit the Pacers system at all. Ideally, this trade would've been done before Copeland signed, but Phoenix must've had higher demands for a while.

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

Re: The Former Player Thread

In the highlight packages of his games so far, Plumlee looks far better than Roy did in all aspects of the game. What a difference being with the Pacers during the Vogel era and going against Roy in practices has made for Plumlee compared to what Roy had to go through. Plumlee looks like a young Tim Duncan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs are willing to part with a fairly significant veteran player to nab Plumlee so that Duncan can help polish him into their center / pf of the future.

Re: The Former Player Thread

I think he looks great... for a second-year player picked at the end of the first round. I have no doubt Plum will be a great rotational player and a potentially solid starter for years to come. He's in a great situation down there: that team has nothing to lose and they can play spoiler all season long. It's not a big deal to make mistakes; they're all learning together.

But our window is now, and Scola's veteran poise and experience is much more valuable for a team trying to win a championship. Scola's decision-making has been nearly flawless on the floor, which I wouldn't expect from Miles for the next few years.

Everybody won in that trade.

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Re: The Former Player Thread

People fail to consider the situation Miles is now in and how it's MUCH more conducive to his growth than here in Indiana. Right here is a win-now, high-expectation environment, the complete opposite of that in Phoenix. Sure, Miles showed flashes in the summer league, but would he have been able to produce given minutes here? That's up for debate, but when a contender like us has an opportunity to get someone who HAS experience in high-pressure situations, i.e. Luis Scola, it has to pull the trigger. In this sense, Mahinmi is a better fit at backup center than Plumlee despite his contract because he's a known quantity who has championship experience.

Re: The Former Player Thread

I feel like people are taking crazy pills wanting Ian in the trade instead. I think he's been fantastic so far this season, and been a much better stopgap after Roy. Plumlee would not fill the role as well, he's a great fit exactly where he ended up, a more up-tempo team over a smashmouth team. I'll have fun watching Pacers/Suns this year that's for sure.

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

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Re: The Former Player Thread

Plumlee's defense looked fantastic early on. I usually defend Ian, because I think he's all defense and anything you get out of him offensively is just a bonus, but I think Plumlee's defense looked better and it didn't have to do with them being uptemp. Ian is athletic, but not nearly as athletic as Miles. Miles also looks to be a better rebounder.

Miles doesn't have the foul trouble either, which is weird. He's playing 30MPG, blocking 2 shots a night, going vertical on other shots, and not getting many whistles against him. Shows he plays really good positional defense, and isn't rushing over after getting caught out of position trying to go for blocks.

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

Re: The Former Player Thread

I feel like people are taking crazy pills wanting Ian in the trade instead. I think he's been fantastic so far this season, and been a much better stopgap after Roy. Plumlee would not fill the role as well, he's a great fit exactly where he ended up, a more up-tempo team over a smashmouth team. I'll have fun watching Pacers/Suns this year that's for sure.

Might benefit him offensively, but it isn't exactly like Ian is exploding offensively either. Defensively, that is another story, as Since86 said.

Re: The Former Player Thread

I feel like people are taking crazy pills wanting Ian in the trade instead. I think he's been fantastic so far this season, and been a much better stopgap after Roy. Plumlee would not fill the role as well, he's a great fit exactly where he ended up, a more up-tempo team over a smashmouth team. I'll have fun watching Pacers/Suns this year that's for sure.

It's not apples for apples. Even if Ian is a little better, he is $4 million fours years (or something close to that) while Plums is a late first rounder contract. It prepares us for a challenging summer finance-wise.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: The Former Player Thread

What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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Re: The Former Player Thread

Phoenix specifically asked for Plumlee in the trade, so I doubt there was ever any chance of them receiving Ian instead. You can't have Scola and Plumlee, just one or the other.

I've watched most of the Suns games this season. I like Plumlee, and I think he has great touch around the rim. His defense is solid, and penetrating guards need to watch out for him. I really don't like the way he positions himself for rebounds, though. I don't think his stats are hollow, but I do think they're a little inflated for what he brings to the table. All that said, I'd rather have him than Mahinmi if I'm a rebuilding team like the Suns.