Liveblog: debate on Tomb Raider’s “rape” elements

New Statesman’s Helen Lewis and Guardian columnists Mary Hamilton and Sarah Ditum joined us this afternoon to live-chat on the subject of Tomb Raider’s attempted rape scenario. Read the entire thing here.

Following the release of an E3 interview confirming Tomb Raider will feature a “rape” attempt – in which Lara “is literally turned into a cornered animal” – we debated the subject here today.

Crystal Dynamic has now issued a clarifying statement, saying comments made by Ron Rosenberg in Kotaku’s E3 interview were “misunderstood”. GamesIndustry is reporting that CD has said Rosenberg “misspoke” on the matter.

Joining us were New Statesman deputy editor Helen Lewis, who yesterday published an article titled, “Hey, let’s ‘evolve’ Lara Croft by having people try to rape her!”

The Guardian’s Mary Hamilton was also here, having this week written to ask whether or not Lara really has to survive a sexual assault as part of her back-story.

In addition, Sarah Ditum was here. Sarah writes for the Guardian, New Statesman and other titles on games, women’s issues and more.

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129 Comments

Oh yeah a writer from The Guardian is a great idea… Or something -.-’
Ontopic though, why even discuss it when you don’t know all the facts? Like what is leading up to it? Who has taken her captive? Why is she taken captive? What kind of person is it that is trying to rape her? How does it fit in with the story of that particular mission? Seriously, don’t get offended by what a game does, the the whole sexism thing that was being written about a while back. If you do get so easily offended, you might as well pick up a book. Oh wait, there is rape, genocide, molestation and murder in those, ah well, best idea is to isolate yourself from the world then i reckon

Rape as part of the story? Thats “nice”. I wouldn’t want rape as a feature for any game that you have to rape people but getting rape attempted gives a bit of realism to it considering the circumstances.

Context and presentation here is important. Just look at the way ‘Girl with the Dragon Tattoo’ (Both Finchers and the swedish version) did it. The scene was highly disturbing, showed her completely helpless and vulnerable. Yet we don’t see her as a victim, she was a victim of the crime, yes, but she is not A victim.

For me it actually shows strength. The fact that she could endure something so disgusting and horrible and yet not only live on, but seek revenge (not impulsive, but thought-out). She would punish the person who did that to her and after that, go on.

It was a traumatizing event, but it would not change her.

It showed that she wouldn’t go down, that she could endure.

So if the developer thinks they want Lara to endure this, if they think that this is what it takes for her to be a Croft, they should do it. But they have to be really, really tricky about it.

WTF is this. Out of the entire trailer of TR , they manage to pick out a 5-second part where frankly NOTHING happened (it was more like attempted molestation and nothing I mean not something out of the world) that these people are barking about. Its not that she was raped, these useless “mainstream morons” assumed so based on their thoughts. These kind of crimes are mainstream things in other entertainment mediums, so why the is there so much ruckus when something this small is shown in games. Also I think the game rating agencies like PEGI are more than capable of rating games, so these people from guardian can just stop whining and stop defaming games (good games I must say)

If the game case as an 18 on the front then who the fuck cares?
Its like 60years ago film critics having this exact same discusion about film. I mean, games are in its infantcy in terms of story and the way its told but talking about such things is just stupid to me… Specially when you here worse on the 6 o clock news EVERY DAY!

What? It is quite obvious that you as the player are protecting her from being raped. The person who is trying to rape her is portrayed as a villain. I can’t believe that video games are still seen as a medium in which you can’t have any mature themes. Grow up, people! And she will kick his ass for sure.

@8,
“Specially when you here worse on the 6 o clock news EVERY DAY!”
That is precisely the reason I stopped watching news a long time ago. I never have good things to show.Just rape this and murder that and the show is over.

Let’s get one thing straight from the start. The victim or would-be victim of a rape is not the animal in the equation. I have plenty of respect for real animals, but I think we ought to avoid the comparison in this context altogether. But if we are portraying anyone as being somehow less-than-human, let’s reserve that for the attackers and predators who actually see sexual violence as sexually gratifying. They are neither like humans nor like animals, but they are more accurately true monsters.

Also I dont think something like this (rape) would happen in TR , it would be disastrous for the series as it might lose many of its fans. Its just suggested in that part of the trailer and films go WAAAAAAAAAAY beyond this. Everyone knows that and they dont give a shit to that but if its a game, then OMG this is bad. This discrimination towards games must stop.

I just enjoy the fact that no one would raise an eyebrow if this was Natalie Portman in some big pretentious Hollywood production.

This is more a case of “videogames shouldn’t do this” based on a general bias, more than it’s ever going to be about rape imagery. It’s just another witch hunt.

I don’t want rape attempts in my games. But people do get raped on a daily basis, so I don’t see how you’re doing storytelling any favors by trying to censor it, if it ever pops up as part of a narrative. And you wouldn’t in any other medium, from books to cinema.

Has anyone watched Game of Thrones lately? Where’s the outrage?

HBO and George RR Martin can slit babies throats, but Crystal Dynamics can’t subject a woman to an attempted sexual violation? Fuck right off.

Even just having a discussion about this shows how limited creators and audience are. Rape scene in The Sopranos? No problem, rape scene in Sons of Anarchy following a long arching storyline? No problem!

Rape in Tomb Raider? No fucking way!

Why? The only problem I would have with it is if it was executed badly, which it probably would be considering what passes for writing in a video game nowadays.

Totally agree. Lets pretend this shit does not happen and let me sit in my room playing a game where I murder 1000+ baddies because I comfortable with that. Rape…. No, no i’m not comfortable with that reality yet.

Thats what most of these commenters in here are basically sounding like.

I like to think that “games” can say more then just COD etc. How much points or headshots you get is becoming….. I cant even find a word to describe it. Someone help me out.,….

If it is treated correctly and with respect I don’t see the problem with it. Especially if, like #5 says, it adds to the story and character development. It’s a mature situation to deal with in the sense that it is something quite horrific but we have seen it in lots of other media and I don’t see why we can’t give developers the credit to actually create something serious like this.

Some reactions make me really think that it’s not the devs that hold games back from becoming more mature but the gamers themselves. If you can’t deal with real life situations happening in games then do not ever ask for more realism or maturity.

@18, +1 fella. Great examples used there, especially SoA as I’m a fan. And that storyline was exceptional in building the character and others around her.

Blowing npc brains out with shotgun has become stale since it has been done first back in 1993. Time to move it up a notch. It’s either this, or I’m going to be collecting yet another 7 pieces of a broken amulet and saving the game world I don’t give a fuck about. I mean, if a villain rapes me, I might just try to finish the game.
I’m sure feminists will start shrieking, but as a male or as they call us, potential rapist, I am willing to give this a shot.

There is far more to this than the fact that it’s an attempted rape / molestation scene. The problem is with how they’re inherently portraying Lara.

Yesterday’s news story discussing the developers’ portrayal of Lara had an uncomfortably sexist tone about it. There is nothing more condescending and degrading to the development of a female characters grown than the idea that it somehow has to stem from or be associated with male power trips. It’s lazy and ignorant.

Everything we’ve seen so far shows Lara being abused by men. She’s always the victim, always being afraid, and constantly in a state of pain or abuse. It’s lazy, and it’s a cop out. And when the developers talk about people only bonding with her through a desire to “protect her”, it’s just giving strength to more power fantasies.

We’re not seeing Lara through the eyes of a woman. We’re seeing Lara through the eyes of a man.

@28: Well said, but we already had the alternative. The problem is before she was a sexual object, now she still is, just in a different sense (and really, what else are power fantasies). But isn’t exactly this the goal of C.D., to empower her as the game plays out? So the actual problem is that we haven’t seen anything yet from a later stage in the game (which makes sense marketing wise).

I don’t see what’s wrong with including it in a videogame. Rape is something which happens all the time. It’s harsh but it’s the truth. Do you expect some thugs who find a girl in the jungle to tend to her wounds? No? Me neither. That’s what they’ll try to do; rape her.

Also, it’s not like rape is something the entertainment industry has totally ignored. Various movies feature rape scenes, without being vulgar or offensive in the slightest.

If anything, Crystal Dynamics must be lauded for daring to include such a scene. Whether they can pull it off or not will depend on how they inact it, but I’ve no issues with such a scene being in the game.

As long as they don’t use it in a way which is offensive and can make it a progressive part of the story, I’ll have no issues with it.

I also find it very funny that gamers, and the media has no issues with games which feature people being amputated, harmless bystanders being run over for no reason, and so much more “sensitive” things, but find it offensive that a developer has decided to include a subject which is both gritty and real. If anything, it goes to show that they are willing to portray a woman as someone who’s able to do a lot more than being an object for half-grown men to fantasize over.

I for one, don’t find it offensive that a developer has decided not to portray a female character with a bosom bigger than the size of your underwear who is meant to make you fantasize about being in bed with her; and has actually tried to give out a more real picture of a woman and how she’ll react in such tough situations.

I’m looking forward to playing the Tomb Raider reboot, and it’s not because it features a rape scene. It’s because the direction CD’s chosen has really caught my attention and I want to see how good a job they can do in doing justice to it.

Oh, the game’s releasing in March, 2013. BUT NO, let’s not wait until we play the game to see what exactly happens and if this “attempt to rape” is justified or not. Let’s all come to the conclusion that it’s grossly wrong to try and include a storyline in a videogame which is even remotely similar to a real life scenario be…cau..see itz a VIDEOGAMES!! It’s not MEANT TO BE REAL, it’s NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENSE!

What I have to say is not PC, but neither is the topic we’re confronting.
It would be unrealistic for Lara to NEVER experience any scenarios where her foes try to use sex as a weapon, but whether it’s suitably handled in the game remains to be seen. That said, not everything that happens in real life should be in games. Many members of the gaming community lack the maturity to deal with this subject matter appropriately, if the comments I’ve read in stories all day are any indication. Still, there have been plenty of others voicing genuine concern, who see the potential for something sincerely disturbing… I’m with the latter crowd. I don’t think sexual predators deserve to walk the planet among us, whether they target men, women, children, animals or all of the above. If we are putting a video game heroine in a situation against a would-be sexual assailant, how it’s presented matters tremendously. That it happens, is not the main issue. As a female, I don’t think it’s fair to say we can sexually exploit females in games all the time, but not show the ugly side of things. It’s absurd to constantly depict sexually exaggerated depictions of women, and make them always ridiculously eager and randomly consenting. If you’re going to make a more realistic Lara, and she’s going to go up against scary bad guys, at a point it strains credibility that NONE of them would attempt to molest her in some manner. None of this is critical of Lara. It’s all a question of whether we, as gamers, can handle real bad guys.
I don’t want to see violence against women in the games I play, but if it is presented, handle it respectfully, appropriately and let me, as the player, respond to it with the gravity it deserves. I think we can do without games that depict anything graphic involving children, period. But in a video game, I think someone attempting to assault Lara should end up exactly the same as anyone who would attempt the same against Master Chief, or any others of the baddest male video game badasses you can imagine. What would Death do? How would Connor respond? If Lara gets to respond just as they would, if she comes out the victor, and evil gets punished in a way that satisfies the story and the righteously indignant player, then it’s subject matter that I think Lara is equipped to handle. At least bring the power of video gaming to bear, vigilantism is illegal in the real world, but in video games, villains can get immediate justice. The would-be victim generally has the most to lose, and therefore takes the threat most seriously.
I don’t mind a game asking me to kill some foes who really deserve to die. Most game villains commit the crime of looking tough, that’s it. They’re on the wrong side, that is sufficient. I’m up to the challenge of dealing with foes really depicted as evil on the inside. But I’d still prefer this to remain “the year of the bow” not the year of the rapist …honestly, that goes for every year.
A quality exception is okay here and there, but the majority of the gaming industry does not seem ready to handle this subject matter at all, not while so much exploitation is still glorified.
I’m hopeful, however, that if anyone is best equipped to tackle such a scenario, that a strong female icon could really do the job well.

Violence against women can and often is used as a cheap emotional device in fiction, by writers who need to rely on shock effect, rather than the basic ability to reach their audience through good writing.

But isn’t that pretty much all there is to say about it?

You can’t exclude bad writers from using violence against women, any more than you can stop them from becoming writers in the first place.

Like you said, this is just cheap emotiopants rioting that really does nothing to add depth to her as a character. I’ve talked to quite a few women about this already, and all of them have agreed with the point so far, after seeing the context of it all.

@40 The problem is that media is completely chock full of countless examples of female characters whose *only* true character development has been through submission to or abuse from men. The comic book industry is especially bad at this. It’s not deep and its insulting to women, full stop.

@42 I don’t see why it has to be a women’s issue. It’s as much about how everyone percieves women, and writing, including men.

The only reason why damsel in distress works, is because women are still perceived as damsels.

I don’t personally have a problem with that, and I’m not sure a majority of women do either, but you can’t use the argument that “this makes some quantity of women uncomfortable, so it’s unacceptable”.

I just don’t see the cause for alarm. Of course now they’ve clarified it and used some different terminology, but even so, what’s wrong with a woman being called a cornered animal?

Why aren’t we offended when that terminology is used on military enemies, or just any sort of male? Even if some tend to focus on the word animal instead of the context, a cornered animal is in fact pretty damn dangerous.

It’s too semantic for my taste. Damsel in distress has been a theme of the medium ever since Donkey Kong or Mrs Pacman.

If portrayed correctly. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be ok to display. Although, it is almost unheard of to call rape tasteful. In a narrative there becomes a since of tasteful execution. No need to show more then what’s needed. Suggestive is almost always better then full on enactment.

Also, remember I say almost. If your trying to capture the intensity of the situation in an attempt to show a woman excelling from said circumstance? Then sometimes the more detail you can give to make the viewer feel as helpless as the victim is a good thing. It invokes a strong sense of determination in the viewer to want to see that person come out of it. And to also come out of it with them.

However, in this game suggestive is probably the best manner to go by to preserve whatever goal they are trying to achieve with this new Lara. Giving to much of her away can make the player look at her as a pointless object once again.

I say go for it if it gives me a Lara that not only becomes stronger in execution but in the players hands. It can become an strong bond between the player and the character.

I personally feel like many of the scenes we’ve seen so far have unomfortable undertones to similar to the scene that’s been criticised recently. Do you feel like this is something that will be isolated to this instance, or do you worry, like me, that there is a broader problem with the game in how it’s choosing to portray Lara?

Seriously? People should try to do some research before writing articles like this.

First off: The rape scene makes perfect sense. Lara is stranded on an island which many people have stranded on before. The group of men which her attacker belongs to has been there for several years (maybe even decades). They already seem to be extremely violent (What with forcing everyone who gets to the island to join them/accept their leadership. They practically seem to treat every new arrival as cattle.) and the guy in question probably hasn’t seen a woman in several years. Combine all of these things and you’ve got a rapist.

Furthermore, they don’t show Lara as a “weak” character because it wouldn’t make sense for her to simply be strong without having been “weak”. I mean, she isn’t even weak. She’s normal. In previous games, Lara’s personality was flat. She was cool, “badass”, sarcastic,…and that’s about it. Now she is a normal person. She’s as strong or weak as you’d expect a normal 21-year-old to be. The reason why they’re doing an origin story, why Lara has to go through this transition from normal to “badass” is to create a connection between player and character and to give the character some depth and credibility. I mean, have you seen the kind of stuff she has done in some of the games? No normal person would do that. Of course, there has to be some sort of catalyst, some event that turned her into that adrenaline-junkie. And in the case of the rape scene, that is the catalyst for her to kill someone for the first time. In self-defence, of course, but it’s still the first step towards becoming the gun-toting adventurer we all know and love. I mean, that’s understandable, right? As a normal person, you wouldn’t just strand on this island and start shooting people.

Furthermore, the argument that male “heroes” are never presented as weak before they become the “heroes” we know is wrong. May I just remind you of Uncharted 3 and the flashback chapters in which a scared, teenage Nathan Drake gets chased by thugs and almost gets shot only to be rescued by his soon-to-be mentor Victor Sullivan? I mean, I’m not going to argue that men and women are still being perceived differently in our society and I, of course, also agree that that’s a bad thing. I just don’t think that it has got anything to do with this reboot of the Tomb Raider franchise. Even those male heroes would have needed some sort of catalyst to turn into who they are. If anything, those games have to be blamed for portraying their protagonists unrealistically. Why blame Tomb Raider for wanting to give Lara Croft a credible personality? People should just stop thinking that every time sex pops up in a video game it has to be anti-feminist. Of course, that has been true for a lot of games in the past but generalisation is never a good thing, so don’t use it just because it benefits your stereotyping, unqualified opinion.

And maybe it is used as a story gimmick but so what? Murder is being used as a story gimmick in pretty much every episode of every crime thriller TV show. I’ve never heard anyone complain. Rape happens. In an ideal world it wouldn’t but this is the real world and rape happens. Would you rather nobody talked about it and we just ignored it altogether? No? Then why are you against it being displayed in a mature and realistic way as part of a story? Oh right, because it’s a video game story. And we all know that video games are being developed and played exclusively by socially deprived, heterosexual, horny nerd-weirdos whose only reason to put a female into a game is because they find her hot, right? Stereotyping goes both ways. Remember that the next time you write a poorly-researched article that tries to condemn the very thing it does.

My opinion is that if it’s a part of the story, it can be a powerful tool in helping people to understand how much of a horror rape can be. If it’s just there for shock value then I’d say to do away with it.

The average person absolutely cannot wrap their mind around how it feels to be violated in that sort of way, and to increase empathy by making them understand is a good thing. I think that entertainment could serve a purpose to actually do that.

On some levels, I’m actually kind of liking what they’re doing with this, and making people understand what it means to take a life, graphically so, or what it means to be a participant in rape. Violence, sexual or not, is not a fun thing and I can tell you this from my own experiences. Neither is dealing with someone who has murderous urges.

So I think it can be a powerful tool for increasing empathy with victims of rape and violence, but it has to be done right.

Just for information, you do understand that there will be no actual rape scene in this game? Molestation yes, and it will be implied of course, but it will never come close the actual act of rape, which actually makes this whole article kind of redundant.

I agree though, that the actual gravitas connected to the scene is not the molestation/attempted rape but Lara killing her first human being (which makes this article even more redundant). Although in self defense this could be some powerful stuff character wise if they can pull it off (which I doubt, but at least this way I’ll maybe be positively surprised when I play the game )

So it seems people think there’s no issue because it’s not actually rape? Good grief!

The game might not have an actual rape scene in it but sexual violence is more than implied. What’s really outrageous is the fact that certain people thought it acceptable to use rape as a vehicle on which to try and hype and sell a product. That’s pretty disgusting. Rape is a crime, not a feature. There should have been some fairly loud alarm bells ringing in their heads when they starting spouting off in an interview about using rape as a character and player motivation, regardless of whether or not the game contained it. It’s a massive error of judgement.

Effectively what’s been implied is “rape makes you stronger” and that’s stratospherically wrong.

#57: “What’s really outrageous is the fact that certain people thought it acceptable to use rape as a vehicle on which to try and hype and sell a product.”

Yes, this is exactly right. People who say, “Hey why can films do this but not games”, it’s all about context. A film wouldn’t promote itself by putting this scene front and centre in the marketing and talking about how we, as a player, should react to it. Also it’s pretty messed up messaging to combine that with quotes like,“Her skin is still bare on the arms and there are going to be rips and tears on her clothes, but it won’t be about being revealing. It’s a way of saying that through these tough situations, there is a beauty and vulnerability coming through. I think that is sexy in its own way.”

Maybe you can cover difficult and potentially taboo subjects in a sensitive, insightful way within video games….but it looks like this is completely removed from anything close to that.

We constantly talk about the validity of gaming as a medium, as an artform and as a method of complex storytelling, then the minute something comes along which is quite common in ALL other forms of media, we throw a shitfit!

No one is going to take games seriously if WE are constantly questioning its ability to handle grown up themes.

I have a question; why are you all reacting to reactions rather thasn waiting for the game to be released and see what elements are actually in the game context rather than small snippits taken out of complete context.

Then surely something as horrible as rape is even worse in those mediums because theres nothing you can do to stop it. You have to sit and watch, which is even more uncomfertable than being able to stop it yourself which the addition of interactivity would bring.

Games as entertainment can be viewed on the same level as cinema, literature and whatever else.

Master Chief as an example is awful. He was ripped from his life and became an experiment. A character like Drake would be much more appropriate and given that we know he was an orphan, a scenario that could certainly have played out…

Helen, Pat, the only game I can think of that has a genuinely vulnerable male character is the dad in Heavy Rain – and even that has a played-for-sexiness bit where a female character is forced to get undressed (she kicks the guy’s ass afterwards, which I guess makes it okay in Quantic Dream’s eyes).

This whole thing feels like comics’ attempts to be more ‘mature’ in the late 90s – most writers seemed to equate that with female characters being sexually assaulted and male characters getting addicted to heroin, rather than genuinely trying to portray a greater range of emotion. And to the people saying ‘Oh, you don’t just become a hero without a catalyst,’ – really? You can’t think of a real person who’s become strong and confident without a horrible, traumatic event in their lives? Or is that just something you’ve got from Batman?

They’re either true or not. It’s just like watching the news to a large extent. You see/hear what happened or what someone says happened, and you react to it as you want.

When it becomes interactive, now you’re getting involved. And for every 100 normal people who would be horrified at the thought of letting a sexual crime be perpetrated on a vulnerable woman, there’s an Anders Breivik or a Graham Coutts, who will get some sort of sick arousal out of intentionally failing the mission.

So where do we stop?

Do we start making games that explore child abuse and peadophilia, justifying them as being a similar artistic exploration as Lolita?

Re: response. Well you clearly don’t want it to happen. I think there’s been a miscommunication somewhere that has drastically altered the discussion. Regardless of whether it was a man or a woman, you would want to save/protect them from any form of sexual assault surely?

If the game in question stood to benefit from the inclusion of themes like those, I see no reason why games can not handle the same level of subject matter as anything else. Heavy Rain already tackled the subject of a child killer, not all that well but I would say it did just as well as The Lovely Bones did.

Simply saying because its interactive is a cop-out. Before video games people were scared on movies, then books, then music then whatever else they could easily pin blame on.

I also find it very interesting the general differing reaction to both sexual assault and murder. No-one bats an eye at a murdered, hell, you often play one, but sexual assault is deemed as something far far worse. I’m not debating as to whether one is worse than the other as both are deplorable, but it’s a widely had belief that a rapist is a far greater evil than a murdered.

Can this then be used as a means to portray the evil of someone, rather than the oddly perceived weakness of the victim?

Sounds like this is turning into a discussion about the “rules” around re-booting particular IPs. Character [x] can do this, but shouldn’t do that etc. If so, you’re all straying into whiny fanboy territory.

Nobody’s saying that you can’t have rape/sexual assault scenes in any form of media. Nobody’s even saying that they have to be tastefully handled, whatever that means. I won’t seek those films/games/books out, because I don’t like them, but that’s my own taste.

The problem is very much that it’s Lara. As has been pointed out, she’s one of very few strong female characters in games, and people – including me – don’t like that she’s being made into a victim because the developers don’t have the wit or imagination to make her character more interesting in other ways. It doesn’t matter that one guy in Mafia has been the victim of an attempted sexual assault: what matter is that it wouldn’t happen to Solid Snake, or Leon Kennedy or Ryu. And it doesn’t even matter that rape is something that happens in real life, or that it would be a threat that some sort of ‘real life’ Lara Croft would face from ‘real life’ enemies, because videogames like Tomb Raider aren’t about real life. That’s all.

Anyway, I’m just speaking in general. My original comment in this section was in response to #61. So I’m not talking about this specific game.

@76:

It’s not a cop out. The danger here is that you end up giving giving sick people the opportunity to, to a certain extent, live out their fantasies by physically and visually getting involved in doing things that destroy lives.

That doesn’t happen when you read a book, watch a film or watch Crimewatch.

@85: Discussing the moralities of prostitution is a far more complex discussion, but it would be an entirely different game if you took a woman to your car and raped her, over paying for a prostitutes time.

@84, Just because a book isn’t visual or a movie interactive doesn’t mean scenes of rape wouldn’t influence those types of people.

I don’t see how there is a clear difference between games and other forms of media. They still represent the same thing and in most cases, it will always be down to how the individual responds to what they’re seeing.

I don’t see what the difference is in what you’re saying about this and others saying that violent games have an effect on people… which a lot of people would write off.

“My main problem is that it’s lazy”. So, we’re all okay with arguing *completely* subjectively here, then? There’s no objective point we’re trying to get across anymore? /shrugs.

The problem with any rape scene is if it was out of context, or sought to glamorise rape and/or make it an erotic act. This is the same in interactive AND passive forms of entertainment. As far as we know, Tomb Raider does neither.

Sarah says Lara is “raped into being awesome” and that it’s crass. Far from it, the scene appears to put Lara in a relatively believable situation (pretty girl stranded on island surrounded by nefarious males). Having one of these males attempt to exploit their isolation and Lara’s vulnerability doesn’t seem all that out of place, given the context. As a narrative device to explain the first time Lara kills another human, I’d say it’s pretty believable – again, given the context. Whether or not it’s crass depends on how it comes out in the final edit and is *intensely* subjective.

Personally, I don’t think you ought to ring fence rape and forbid its use as a narrative plot point. If presented intelligently, it can be a powerful, emotionally engaging dramatic device – like murder, torture or other forms of abuse.

Above all, I certainly don’t think we should be in a position to impose restrictions on developers as to how they can reboot characters. Strikes me, there’s too many shades of the ME3 ending fiasco towards the end of this discussion.

You don’t want Lara to be involved in an attempted rape scene because it’s Lara and it doesn’t fit in with your previously established understanding of her character? That’s hardly the most open minded, creativity-embracing attitude, is it? It implies that you don’t like your preconceived notions being challenged – a very conservative and reactionary viewpoint.

Gheritt – yes, I am being subjective. Am I saying that it shouldn’t be *allowed*? No, apart from real extremes, then obviously creators/developers can do what they want. Am I saying that I, personally, have a problem with it, that it makes me less inclined to buy the game, and that I’m disappointed in the decisions that have been made up to this point? Yes: that’s exactly what I’m saying.

>>You don’t want Lara to be involved in an attempted rape scene because it’s Lara and it doesn’t fit in with your previously established understanding of her character?

That’s right. And also, as I mentioned further up, because she’s one of the only strong female characters in games. And because it’s something that is difficult to retcon later – once Frank Miller made Catwoman a prostitute, that was pretty much a part of her character forever, whatever anybody thought about it.

>>That’s hardly the most open minded, creativity-embracing attitude, is it?”

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t do it. I’m saying that I’m not going to support it. Especially when I don’t think there’s anything really ‘creative’ about it.

I don’t like Rape in games. Here is my thinking: video games are a visual and interactive entertainment. I don’t find rape entertaining in any sort of form. Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. I don’t need or want it in my games.

It has zero to do with realism. Zero to do with enhancing a story. Zero to do with a game reflecting real life. It has to do with class and respect for the people that have been attacked. There are some subjects that simple do not need to be in video game entertainment. Rape is one of them.

@94 – I don’t think it’s supposed to be ‘entertaining’, but used as a strong narrative point. And by burying our heads in the sand and saying “I don’t like something so I don’t want it discussed in my games” is perhaps a greater insult to those who actually have to deal with it.

I’m not 100%, but from what I understand, during E3, some guy claimed that there would be a part of the game where players would need to ‘protect’ Lara from attempted rape. There was a reaction to that, and now CD are claiming that the orignal guy was misunderstood, and there is no such part anywhere in the game.

@95 wow you really have that all backwards. Understandable and I am sure your not alone on the subject.

Strong nerrative point?

Use something else.

As for burying our heads and pretending it didn’t happen…

You hold video games too highly in regaurd. Puting it in a game doesn’t make it better. It isn’t a coaping mechanisim for anyone. Having it in a game doesn’t make soiciety better. All it does is monitize aspects of a horrible crime. Video games are not a meaningful platform for public discussion of societies problems. Your giving games too much credit. They are interactive entertainment only. That is all they will ever be. They are not some grass roots movement to right social injustices.

Maybe it makes you feel empowered to think you can stop a video game rape. Fine. Strange, but fine. But do not, for one moment think playing a rape scene in a video game will benifit anyone.

I worked(albeit, indirectly) with abused women. Trust me your not helping them or the situation by playing the anti rape pov/char in a video game.

You have a very niave way of looking at it.

At the end of the day game pubs can put anything they want in their games. Doesn’t mean anything. Just someone trying to turn a buck over something they feel will get them extra attention.

Like I’ve tried to explain myself earlier in this thread, the problem isn’t with the scene itself. The problem is with the approach. It’s not because we want Lars to remain a “badass”. It’s because it’s a lazy attempt at characterisation.

People talk about how it’s okay in films, so it should be okay in games. If you actually have any knowledge of other forms of media, you’d know that it’s considered a lazy cop-out in those mediums too. Male abuse for characterisation of women is chauvinistic at its core, and a distinctly male approach. You rarely see a woman write a story about men being abused by women.

In comic book culture, this has taken on the legendart name of Women in Refrigerators”. it was a list compiled way back in 1999 that showed an uncomfortable trend in comic books in which female characters only relevant character development was death, rape and depowerment. Typically by men.

The only people who think rape / female abuse is a strong narrative point are men. Most women are sick of it, because it’s so nauseatingly common and overdone.

One scene would be fine, but everything we’ve seen about the game so far have an uncomfort focus on weakness, and not in a good way. She’s constantly being abused and hurt, and she’s *constantly* screaming. Oh thats rights, the writers want us to see her pain so we’ll want to “protect her”? What a load of sexist bullshit.

At no point in any of this do we ever see her in control. We never see her instinct take over or adrenaline think in. We just see a week girl, constantly afraid, constantly struggling, constantly losing. It’s puerile. We actually need to see some strength in her come true in these trailers.

I bet the main male cast will all be tough, scruffy and show little emotion, while Lara is freaking out constantly and not in control of herself. Because women are the only ones allowed to be weak.

@98 I think it’s a little disheartening to suggest that video games story’s cant have any depth or meaning to them, and I think it’s ludicrous to suggest that the designers don’t at least try.

Whether they succeed or not is of course a completely different story.

I never said they can’t have depth Mike. I just think that somethings don’t fall into the realem of entertainment. And something as poingent as rape is going to be such a tough subject to attempt. My beef was more in the notion that was suggested that by having rape in a game it could somehow be a respectful and positive thing.

At the end of the day, no matter what is done to a game, it is still a just a game.

@99: “Protect her”? Yep, that’s bullshit, how can the player “Protect her” if he IS Lara? That doesn’t make sense.

“At no point in any of this do we ever see her in control. We never see her instinct take over or adrenaline think in. We just see a week girl, constantly afraid, constantly struggling, constantly losing. It’s puerile. We actually need to see some strength in her come true in these trailers.”

Yeah, because we’ve seen so much material. God, you’re EXACTLY like the DMC-Crybabies. I’ve seen her grab a bow, from a dead body and use it to hunt an animal. She did that all by herself. No one helped her, definitely no man.

“I bet the main male cast will all be tough, scruffy and show little emotion, while Lara is freaking out constantly and not in control of herself. Because women are the only ones allowed to be weak.”

@98, I think that’s quite a sad way to look at any industry and in my opinion, I think you’re being the naive person here.

Writing off a form of media as anything other than just something for shits and giggles is ridiculously sad. It’s like telling musicians, artists or film makers to stop trying to promote anything outside of something nice for me to dance to, look at or listen to.

@98 – People said EXACTLY the same things with movies. This is an industry that is booming and will continue to grow, so covering such topics will have an impact of the future outcome of the media.

As for claiming my views are “backwards” or “naive”, it’s easier to have a mature debate without someone belittling your views so please don’t patronise me by believing that your experiences outweigh my own when you have no idea my personal situation.

It’s not about making society better, but by simply saying you cannot cover such a topic in games (which are just another form of media) because it’s too difficult or painful only hinders it’s global knowledge and potential empathy.

The crossroads trailers we’ve seen so far has Lara begging a man to come help her, and latter when found by a bunch of people, all but one of them are men, and she’s an emotional mess while they’re all calm and collected.

The thing that amazes me the most, is why the Silent hill 2 rape didnt had the same type of reaction from gamers, and opinion pieces for that matter, and now an “attempt” is really having it, strange how we see things so differently.

What I find funny is how one minute gamers will talk about protecting the “artistic rights” of the devs and such when people complain about something in a game – ME3 ending for example – but then if a writer creates a story in a game with something like rape as a subject, people who personally don’t like or want to deal with it, all that stuff about protecting the artists vision goes out the window.

@107 I’m not condemning it because it makes me uncomfortable. I’m condemning it because it’s lazy.

Boys don’t Cry makes me uncomfortable. But it’s still a great movie. That particular scene near the end was so harsh I had the skip past it, but that was integral to the plot and the message of the story.

Lara is not a transexual trying to find acceptance with people who don’t understand who she, ultimately objectifying her as a woman despite her desire not to be seen that way. The movie’s tragic scenes were harsh, brutal and realistic, to try and hit home the point of tolerance and acceptance of people who are different from the norm.

Tomb Raider is not trying to reach such lofty heights. Surely you can see why the approach to characterisation for Lara is lazy at best, and sexist at worst?

@102 Context.

Silent Hill’s horrors are meant to be the mainfestation of the character’s own thoughts and desires.

The apartments were the “climax” of James’ sexual frustrations (alluding to the daily sexless life he had). The apartments leads into his first meeting with Maria, the outward manifestation of James’ sexual frustration, so after that there was no reason for Pyramid Head to display such behaviour.

@116 I don’t disagree with any of that, but why is it a women’s issue?

In all likelihood they’re just bad writers, and that isn’t exclusive to videogames.

What you have here is an explosive reaction based on some lousy PR, by a guy who wasn’t eloquent or likely smart enough to handle the presentation.

Then suddenly that becomes a big issue about how women are viewed, when really it’s a basic human instinct. Protect the females, so they can pass on the genes.

The weaker the female, the stronger the instinct. I don’t see how it becomes more or less reprehensible just because it’s badly written, and I don’t get why this is a big thing because it happens in Tomb Raider.

It’s the same concept as you’d find in the Stieg Larsson books, or Lars Von Trier movies, or Game of Thrones on HBO. Most women I know love Stieg Larsson and Game of Thrones.

@111: So you’re going to judge the whole game based on just what one guy said? Maybe he’s thinking about differently then the others? Remember the Guy from Io Interactive who said that Hitman is Grindhouse all of a sudden?

You really choose to see what you wanted to see in the trailer, though. I saw a girl, not a woman, experience complete and utter horror. Waking up in a cannibal cave, the ground covered in bones, dead bodies hanging from the ceiling. Something like that would cripple anybodies mind.

Of course she’s begging, she’s completely alone and she’s no Tier 1 Spec Ops, for fucks sake. What would you do?

“Oh, yeah, i guess you could get me out of here, if you got nothing else to do.” That is exactly the kind of macho-bullshit some lonely comicbook author would describe as ‘strong’. But it really isn’t. It’s inhuman. It’s cartoony and doesn’t belong in a realistic setting.

She’s stranded on an island. Completely isolated from the outside world. Everybody would be begging.

And it’s not a man, she begged, it’s a bunch of people as you could hear from his answer. And if you looked closer, you’d seen that the people who came to help her had no dirt, no blood on them. Maybe they didn’t experience what she experienced. That’s why they seem so to be so calm.

@118 Then we both essentially agree on the same thing. It’s just bad writing.

That was my point from the beginning, I’m not a fan of censorship, and I’m most definitely not PC. I just think they could have done a far better job. If they don’t want us to see her that way, don’t present her that way.

@120 It’s his job to present the character properly. If that’s the underlying theme they’re going with, its a little disconcerting.

*Obviously* I’m only working with what I’ve seen so far. If the final product turns out to be completely different and does a brilliant job in developing her character, I for one will be ecstatic.

I’m with bad writing here as well. What I don’t get is the objection about
“protect her” part; surely if you know someone who was raped or see someone being raped you would want to help and protect them –be it a woman, a man or a child.

The second thing is, the chat above was more of a discussion than a debate. A debate, as far as I know, involves people of opposing views.

Then comes the part about the male rape. That was funny especially after someone says, what basically means, “The other sex has no idea how bad ours is portrayed,” then fails to give an example like that, LoL moment right there.

who gives a fuck, it can get raped and have its vagina mutilated by bamboo for all i care because it’s not real. god, what a bunch of nerds. we all know that an attempted rape will occur in the game so why are we having this pointless chat. the game is much more likely to be talked about if it’s featured. fuck me, go to uni already and learn something about life outside of games. studies show those that dont attend university turn out to be wife beaters and rapists while those that do attend university make a fuckload of money. sorry but its true.

I’d frankly be disturbed if Nathan Drake was about to be violated by a lady. But lets be real here, how often do we ever hear of a fully grown male being sexually violated by a woman? I don’t think I’ve ever read a newspaper or seen a news report mentioning such things. However, I constantly hear of fully grown males violating both fully grown woman & children too, some times even other men but that’s mainly prison stories. So I’ve just got this to say, is a stereotype really a stereotype if it’s true? My only problem is the way they’ve got Lara reacting, it’d be natural for anyone, regardless of gender, to not react well to a rape attempt, however, she’s a renown badass, she ain’t gonna let no dirty man touch her but she’s clearly afraid & hesitant in the trailer. I reckon everyone would be happy if the man attempted to grab one of her breasts & she simply punched his lights out, but that’s just not the case here.

^ it’s funny you say that, I recently read a agony aunt story where some guy got wasted drunk & the next day was told he’d had sex with some women. Now he couldn’t remember a thing of this and didn’t really like the women.

The result? He felt violated. He knew if sober he wouldn’t have touched her, he felt taken advantage of.

Just goes to show male sexuality is just as complex I guess. Nothing to do with videogames I know

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Kojima Productions will unveil something about Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain this Wednesday. Metal Gear Solid fans should standby for a Phantom Pain-related announcement on Wednesday, March 4. According to developer Kojima Productions’ Twitter, there’s going to be an announcement at 2pm GMT on Wednesday. The developer posted the following image. The image […]

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Battlefield Hardline’s Premium membership will give players access to 4 new features, early access to expansion packs and more. EA detailed the offer today – it costs $50 in total (£40 in the UK) and gives players a whole bundle of new gear and content. Check it all out in handy list form below: Masks […]

Voice actor and Hollywood writer David Hayter discusses the differences between movies and games. And politely declines my leading question. “It might be fun to do a crazy, over-the-top film version of Saint’s Row.” Yeah, that headline is a bit cheap but you’re reading the work of a man who once asked the maker of […]

Microsoft has knocked up to £100 off Xbox One bundles in the UK. The Xbox One with Kinect Assassin’s Creed bundle is now £100 cheaper and comes with a free £20 voucher to be spent on the official Microsoft online store. Over on the Xbox online store there’s a £70 price cut on the white […]

Free-to-play 3DS title Pokemon Shuffle has been downloaded over 1 million times. As a reward for playing the match-3 puzzle game Nintendo has gifted players a Complexity -1 item for free. The item reduces the difficulty of a level, according to Eurogamer. By all accounts Pokemon Shuffle is a cynical game with poorly implemented microtransactions. […]

FrozenByte Games has revealed Trine 3, due for release in 2015 And what better way to reveal a new side-scrolling adventure than with a very pretty trailer full of gameplay? The latest in a series that has already sold 7 million copies is earmarked for PC and “other” formats. Trine 2 released on PS3, PS3, […]

A month since it was released on digital platforms, Dying Light’s physical release has topped the UK charts. Techland and Warner’s zombie survival game has proven to be one of the big hits of the year so far. It was released on digital formats a month ago but has only just been released on good-old […]

Think you can take down a jet plane with a grenade throw? This guy can. In fact, he can do it twice. This is in a variation on the player-created deathmatch “Stunters Versus Snipers” which seem to be all the rage in GTA Online at the moment. One team has a sniper rifle (and grenades) […]

The Phantom Pain looks nice even when Kojima just takes a quick pic with his phone. Look at that beauty. We get nice reflection in pink at the first gray of dawn.
pic.twitter.com/aERTBoZT9z — HIDEO_KOJIMA (@HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN) March 2, 2015 The game doesn’t have a release date yet, which makes us a bit nervous for it […]

Dying Light still has legs – maybe because it’s crammed full of secret things to discover. Ten of those have been highlighted by TerraMantis’ latest YouTube video, including reference to the Underpant Gnomes, guitar lessons, farting zombies and well, we don’t want to spoil it for you. Even if you think you’ve seen everything in […]

Why blind ‘em with science when you could kill ‘em with dance moves? revelations raid When I say Resident Evil: Revelations 2‘s Raid Mode dance gestures are deadly, I’m not being figurative. If you finish the first chapter of Revelations 2 you can unlock Gina for use in Raid Mode. All characters can use gestures […]

“Male Inquisitors can now scale the wall,” says a clever Redditor. A new Dragon Age: Inquisition mod removes Blackwall’s romantic restrictions, allowing male Inquisitors to chat up the fuzzy-faced warrior. Blackwall doesn’t have any race preferences, so you’re good to go there. Dragon Age: Inquisition romance mods are pretty common by now, and to be […]

Destiny players willing to faff about with their system clock can solo the Weekly Nightfall if they prefer. The Weekly Heroic is one of Destiny‘s toughest challenges. Responding to player feedback Bungie implemented matchmaking for the Weekly Heroic, but there are players who genuinely prefer to go it alone. There’s now no legitimate way to […]

A Clayfighter remake is inbound, apparently. Interplay has announced a Clayfighter remaster, combining the content of all past games into one package. Features include: Characters such as Bad Mr. Frosty, Blue Suede Goo, Earthworm Jim, Hoppy, Boogerman, Tiny – and more with over 20 characters total Over 20 familiar environments from the series to duke […]

Dying Light players! Are you sick of picking your way carefully up the sides of tall towers? Have I got a trick for you. The parkour system in Dying Light is okay, but climbing anywhere especially high can be a bit tedious. Enter Jesse Lester, who took a look at the tools available and worked […]

Destiny developer Bungie won’t stop tinkering with Exotic weapons. In Destiny, Exotic weapons are supposed to be the best of the best – and to feel unique. Guns like Ice Breaker and Gjallahorn definitely hit the mark there (although less so when everyone has one), but unfortunately, there are a few that just don’t strike […]

Uncharted 4′s first proper trailer bears some remarkable similarities to the opening moments of a much earlier Naughty Dog game. Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End has more in common with Crash Bandicoot than you might think. It’s Naughty Dog’s first game on a new console, yes – but if you compare Uncharted 4′s E3 2014 […]

Sonic Team leader Takashi Iizuka has said there are no plans to stop making Sonic games. Sonic hasn’t retired from the ranks just yet. “Please rest assured, I personally have no plans to stop making Sonic games for home consoles,” Iizuka told 4Gamer [Japanese]. The comment arose after the site asked if Sonic would become […]

Stealth Inc. 2: A Game of Clones will soon be available on PlayStation platforms, if a trophy list is to be believed. Stealth Inc. 2 initially launched as a Wii U exclusive, disappointing fans of Curve Studios’ tough action game. We’ve heard nothing to contradict this, but Exophase, a generally reliable source, has dug up […]

Runescape developer Jagex is working on something new. According to Jagex’s careers page, the developer has a new, unannounced game in the works. Its advertisement for a lead programmer makes explicit mention of an “undisclosed MMO”. The ad mentions the new title is in “the preliminary stages of redefining the cross platform MMORPG genre” and […]

Destiny developer Bungie has said it will change the way Crucible rewards work. Destiny players are always complaining about the perfidy of RNGesus, but there’s one area where it particularly hurts: the Crucible. PvP players often receive nothing at all for excellent performances, and sometimes Guardians receive the best drops merely for logging in as […]

Azure Striker Gunvolt is getting a sequel. Azure Striker Gunvolt developer Inti Creates has confirmed that the sidescroller has been popular enough to warrant a second instalment. The sequel will also be released on 3DS, the team said on Facebook. Very little information is available at present, unfortunately. “As time goes on we will have […]

Life is Strange developer Dontnod Entertainment has said the second episode is on track for release this month. I guess it would know. Life is Strange Episode 2 has been expected on March 13, but late last week Square Enix told Destructoid it had been delayed. Dontnod has since denied this report, describing it as […]

Job Simulator is the first game to be announced specifically for SteamVR, Valve’s virtual reality tech. Shoot Many Robots and Aaaaa! For the Awesome! developer Owlchemy Labs is the first team to put its hand up and say it’s worked with SteamVR. In a blog post, the studio unveiled Job Simulator, which will be playable […]

The first SteamVR announce is a headset a manufactured by HTC, the Taiwanese mobile company revealed over the weekend. Valve told us last week it planned to unveil virtual reality hardware at GDC, calling it “SteamVR” at the time. Now HTC has pre-empted Valve by revealing Vive, a headset developed thanks to a collaboration between […]

Sony Pictures Entertainment, 2K and Turtle Rock Studios have announced a tournament being hosted by ESL, which will see Evolve players take on newest movie robot, Chappie. The ESL has teamed up with Twitch for the live 4 on 1 competitive event, and you can watch as it all unfolds tomorrow, March 1 at 3pm […]

We haven’t heard much on Harebrained Schemes’ latest since it was announced in November, but today, the team has seen fit to release some interesting gifs of its a new project, Necropolis. Necropolis is a third-person action rogue-like with procedurally generated which can be “re-rolled mid-playthrough” and is headed to Linux, Mac and PC sometime […]