Ирвинг против Липштадт

Transcripts

Is there any evidence whatsoever that I have had that book 1or used that book or relied on that book in any degree? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, because in footnote -- I mean, you are really 3splitting hairs here, Mr Irving ---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
No, I am talking about your paragraph No. 6. 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If you will allow me to answer the question, please? It 6is only two minutes into this and you are already 7interrupting me, Mr Irving. As I have said, you have in 8your discovery, in the documents you made available to the 9Defence, some articles by Ingrid Weckert with pencil 10margin lines, presumably by yourself. These articles went 11together to form a book, though that, I mean, the articles 12in the book are, essentially, the same thing. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
I think it would be useful if we, therefore, have a look 14at this article that I am supposed to have done with the 15alleged pencil lines on it. It is in bundle H1 (vi). Do 16you have that? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not have that here. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before you do, Mr Irving, can I be clear why 19we are doing this? Is it to show that she is not an 20anti-Semitic propagandist? 21MR IRVING: No, my Lord, it is because I have repeatedly been 22accused in this report of relying on an inaccurate book 23and of drawing pencil marks in an article to indicate that 24I have relied on the article. First of all, we are 25dealing with the book. I have asked him to say, is there 26any evidence at all that I have even had the book in my

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1possession and, of course, there is not. So everything he 2says about the book is totally irrelevant. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry, Mr Irving. I have already explained twice why 4it is not irrelevant. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: He says, Mr Irving -- he may be wrong, but 6what he says is that the articles you do quote or cite are 7really regurgitated in the book. Is that what you are 8saying, Professor Evans? I do not know whether it is 9right or wrong. 10MR IRVING: Can I draw your attention ---- 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, not simply regurgitated. 12MR IRVING: Can I draw your Lordship's attention to footnote 13160 which is one typical example where the witness says: 14"The testimony of Naumann, discussed later in this 15Report, is taken over by Irving from Weckert, but only 16mentioned in her book". 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not in the two articles by her which he has included in 18his discovery. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you ---- 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But this is also, Mr Irving, I mean, in your account of 21the Reichskristallnacht, you have concealed where you get 22your material from. You cite simply "the author Ingrid 23Weckert" or "Ingrid Wecker" without giving a precise 24reference to where your material comes from. If one looks 25at some of the more extraordinary assertions you make in 26your account of the Reichskristallnacht, they occur in

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1Ingrid Weckert's work and it is a fair inference that you 2have derived from her. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have stated specifically ---- 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not saying that you take over all of her 5extraordinary ideas, but you take over some. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
To cut the matter short, can we accept, can we agree that 7you now accept that I have not used her book? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, you cannot. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has just said the opposite. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have already explained three times that the articles are 11substantially the same as the book. 12MR IRVING: But you criticise me for what is in her book and 13I have asked you to agree that I have never had her book? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us have a look at some ---- 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
This should be a matter briefly disposed of. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- let us have a look at some of the ideas. I mean, this 17is all extremely vague at the moment. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
First of all, can you point to the pencil lines on the 19article to which you refer? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right, well, can you refer me to the page, please? 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is page 646 of bundle H1 (vi). 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
600 and? 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
46. That is where it begins I believe. H. 24MR RAMPTON: It may be your Lordship will find it in L2. 25MR IRVING: H1 (vi) is the copy that I have used. 26MR RAMPTON: Yes. That may be, but what is it called?

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1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is Kristallnacht 1938, the great anti-German 2spectacle, and this may be taken directly from the journal 3and not ---- 4MR RAMPTON: I do not know. Your Lordship will find it in L2 5at tab 6. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 7MR RAMPTON: Without the pencil marks, I think. 8MR IRVING: Without pencil marks? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Without pencil marks. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
What is the point of putting in a footnote 162, see the 11pencil lines, if we cannot see the pencil lines? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You deny that there are pencil lines, Mr Irving. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am asking you to show them to us. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Could I have the original copy, then, please? 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have just given you the reference. It is H1(vi) 646. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, the original. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
So we have now established that I did not use the book? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, Mr Irving. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have not established that. 20MR IRVING: I am not getting a clear answer from the witness, 21my Lord. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure what it is I am looking at in 23L2. Is this extract from the book or one of the articles? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is an article. 25MR IRVING: It is not the reference I gave. The reference 26I gave was H1 (vi) 646, which is the way the documents

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1were given to me? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is the same. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am bound to say I do not really 4find this terribly helpful. The nub of the criticism, 5I will say it again, is that you have used and cited as a 6source for events succeeding Kristallnacht a lady who is 7alleged by this witness to be worthless as a historian and 8an anti-Semite. You have various answers to that. Either 9you can say I think she is a serious historian and you can 10put to the witness why, or you can say that the material 11you cited has no signs of any anti-Semitism, but really 12burrowing through the documents to see whether there are 13pencil sidenotes on an article seems to me to be a waste 14of time. 15MR RAMPTON: I have the original discovery copy and it has lots 16of pencil marks on it, or what appear to be copies of 17pencil marks, to be exact. 18MR IRVING: Can I take you to the little bundle of documents? 19We will jump several stages in this case, my Lord. 20Towards the end of the little bundle of documents probably 21on the second page ---- 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, you will have to tell me which little bundle, Mr 23Irving. I have plenty here. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
The one I gave you this morning. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me try and find it. Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]