Pero wrote:Well I don't know about optimism but the simple reality is that we wouldn't even know how to wipe our own asses after taking a dump without someone teaching us first. Of course after someone shows us how to do it, it's totally up to us to wipe our asses clean or walk around with shit smeared on our underwear.

It's always good to make a point with foul language. Shows how strong a statement you are making. Pretty sure we would all figure out how to wipe our own ass. After all, we have built pyramids in various cultures all over the world.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

Pero wrote:Well I don't know about optimism but the simple reality is that we wouldn't even know how to wipe our own asses after taking a dump without someone teaching us first. Of course after someone shows us how to do it, it's totally up to us to wipe our asses clean or walk around with shit smeared on our underwear.

It's always good to make a point with foul language. Shows how strong a statement you are making. Pretty sure we would all figure out how to wipe our own ass. After all, we have built pyramids in various cultures all over the world.

You'd think that right? But I'm afraid it's true what I said. Some Indian king proved it unintentionally. Maybe I'll be able to find a link or something.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

BTW, Pero, I get the point you were making, I was just saying maybe you shouldn't let it "piss you off" so much. It's not necessarily arrogant. It seems correct, actually. What doesn't seem correct is dependence on a guru; that just does not come naturally to the western mind, which is probably why westerners love so much the statement by Buddha that we should not believe anything just because he said it or anyone else said it, but because it seems reasonable to us.

Something I catch myself doing more and more these days is actually being intolerant toward ideas I used to have. When I was young and open-minded, I was very tolerant. Now, I am not. I find it hard to hold my tongue if someone expresses interest in something that seems counterproductive or just an obvious bad choice (like a wrist tattoo of something "badass") or a belief that seems silly to me (like we were "put here" to "do something") and then I stop and think that this is not ever how I wanted to be and I wonder why I am becoming like a Buddhist-oriented version of my fanatical Christian mom??? Then, I remember that I'm not supposed to be getting all involved in accepting and rejecting.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

Well I couldn't find the story I was thinking of, though I did find a little similar one. I guess it's possible my memory messed things up since I read about it many years ago. But anyway, I did find this, which is just as good an example.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Pero wrote:Well I couldn't find the story I was thinking of, though I did find a little similar one. I guess it's possible my memory messed things up since I read about it many years ago. But anyway, I did find this, which is just as good an example.

LOL, no you di'n't! Feral children was the first thing I thought of. Kind of different, though. I wouldn't expect a kid who grew up alone to be a very social animal. I would, however, expect him to learn about wiping his ass. In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

padma norbu wrote:BTW, Pero, I get the point you were making, I was just saying maybe you shouldn't let it "piss you off" so much.

Haha you're right about that.

Something I catch myself doing more and more these days is actually being intolerant toward ideas I used to have.

Similar for me. But, though hard as it may be to believe since you only see my internet personality, I actually usually hold my tongue. I don't really concern myself with what others believe, they can believe whatever they like as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me. And I don't bother others with my beliefs. It's just not a way to get along with people and it's not productive.

On discussion forums it's different. But not so different since I don't go around Christian forums debating with them for example.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

padma norbu wrote:LOL, no you di'n't! Feral children was the first thing I thought of. Kind of different, though. I wouldn't expect a kid who grew up alone to be a very social animal. I would, however, expect him to learn about wiping his ass.

Wiki wrote:For example, they may be unable to learn to use a toilet, have trouble learning to walk upright and display a complete lack of interest in the human activity around them.

In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

Interesting.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

padma norbu wrote:BTW, Pero, I get the point you were making, I was just saying maybe you shouldn't let it "piss you off" so much.

Haha you're right about that.

Something I catch myself doing more and more these days is actually being intolerant toward ideas I used to have.

Similar for me. But, though hard as it may be to believe since you only see my internet personality, I actually usually hold my tongue. I don't really concern myself with what others believe, they can believe whatever they like as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me. And I don't bother others with my beliefs. It's just not a way to get along with people and it's not productive.

On discussion forums it's different. But not so different since I don't go around Christian forums debating with them for example.

I understand completely and I'm the same way. I didn't really mean to make a mountain out of a molehill or anything. But, the idea of spontaneous enlightenment/understanding/liberation/whatever has crossed my mind a few times recently. And just in general, I guess, about how to think about this sort of stuff. I really need to read Rebel Buddha.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

padma norbu wrote: In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

Namdrol wrote:I don't get it, Lama Drimed is capable of leading other people on that level?

/magnus

Yes. He has a number of people in retreat under his guidance doing the main practices of Dzogchen.

So you are saying he reached the third vision himself? Or isn't that necessary to be able to guide people through the visions?

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:It took Kunzang Dechen Lingpa seven years to reach the third vision in strict retreat.

Wow it takes that much time/effort even in strict retreat?

I think that is actually fast.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

padma norbu wrote: In fact, the reason I thought of feral children was because certain tribes somewhere (forgot where, read about them once) put small children in a dark cave until the age of 10 or 12 and give them no contact whatsoever. They are fed through a slit and they grow up in complete isolation (like dark retreat, hmmm). They become the "magic men" of the community and are said to develop powers in isolation.

Thanks, I couldn't say for sure if that was the tribe or not. There could be several or at least a handful of tribes that do this sort of thing, I would imagine. I have forgotten their name and there's no chance I will ever remember it. I started to watch the video and then the dern thing logged me out after about 10 minutes in! I need to register to continue watching, so I will do that a little later. Much thanks for the link, the 10 minutes I saw so far was pretty interesting!

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

Even fully enlightened Buddhas above the 10th bhumi can fall, once they start taking on others' karmas, if they are not careful. This is not a popular view among those who would deify the Buddhas, but it is the teachings of Swayambhunatha.