My goal is to inform potential law school students and applicants of the ugly realities of attending law school. DO NOT ATTEND UNLESS: (1) YOU GET INTO A TOP 8 LAW SCHOOL ON SCHOLARSHIP; (2) YOU GET A FULL-TUITION SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND; (3) YOU HAVE EMPLOYMENT AS AN ATTORNEY SECURED THROUGH A RELATIVE OR CLOSE FRIEND; OR (4) YOU ARE FULLY AWARE BEFOREHAND THAT YOUR HUGE INVESTMENT IN TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, GUARANTEE A JOB AS AN ATTORNEY OR IN THE LEGAL INDUSTRY.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009

Lemming Comment of the Year

In an earlier post featuring Third Tier Albany Law School, I received the following comment on December 16, 2009 at 9:19 am. I simply could not let this lunacy pass, without a response.

Anonymous said...Oh my god! A recent graduate without a job in one of the worst economies America has ever faced with 10% unemployment! I can't believe it! Especially since all these law schools guarantee you a job and say they have 100% placemenet. Wait, that doesn't sound right. Also, the current Attorney General of New York State, Andrew Cuomo, went to Albany Law and it is on their website. An odd omission from such a seemingly balanced website.

Listen, kid. Andrew Cuomo is definitely WELL-CONNECTED. His father is former New York Governor Mario Cuomo. (Maybe you’ve heard of him?) Andrew also married into another politically-connected family, i.e. the Kennedys. He is the personification - the definition - of well-connected. He could have gone to Pace and still ended up as the State AG!

On a related note, Mario Cuomo went to St. John’s for law school. Does this make St. John’s a wonderful law school? I can see it now: “You too can become a compassionate, eloquent, brilliant advocate like Mario. Come to St. John’s.”

The fact that I left out Mario Cuomo’s son from the list does not take anything away from my central point about Albany Law School, i.e. that the school lists NOTABLE EXCEPTIONS to show prospective students that an Albany law degree is a great investment. I provided the link, so that readers could see the entire list for themselves. Hence, there is no reason to include the school’s entire list on my blog, Lemming.

In a similar vein, does the fact that Vice President Joseph Biden graduated from Syracuse Law School change the school’s ranking? It is currently in the third tier. “At Syracuse Law, we produce future vice presidents and chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.”

Albany – if it cared about reality – could list the current positions (and not the names) of its recent graduates, i.e. doc review specialist, Biglaw associate, garbage man, insurance claims adjuster, broke solo practitioner/ambulance chaser, grade school teacher, federal court clerk, recovering alcoholic, unemployed, aide to the State Senate, night club bouncer, taxi driver, etc. The vast majority of graduates would NOT be successful, financially-secure attorneys. Get the point?!

Regarding Iowa’s law school, the heart of the matter is this: the poster above your comment relayed the story of a student who is supposedly ranked second in his class at a top tier law school. Iowa is currently ranked 26th by US News & World Report. They consistently hover around the top 25. This school certainly has some prestige. The guy is second in his class and on law review, and HE CANNOT FIND LEGAL EMPLOYMENT! This definitely presents a problem for your average law student who ends up at a lower-tiered school.

Do you understand that?!?! I suppose you are a pre-law troll from TLS, Law School Discussion, or lifeat160. If so, you are excused for your blatant ignorance. Your writing style reflects that you have not yet been admitted to law school. You also come across as immature. Furthermore, you seem to be wedded to the idea of going to law school – REGARDLESS of the facts.

Lastly, NO ONE mentioned that law schools guarantee their students a job. The fact that you feel the need to make things up FURTHER UNDERMINES your argument and your credibility. What you fail to point out is that most law schools do purport to have 93%-99% placement rates. (This is the case, even though NALP states that about 89.9% of Class of 2008 law graduates, "for whom empoyment status was known," were employed within 9 months of graduation.) That gives prospective law students the idea that they are, in fact, making a smart financial decision and a sound investment in their future.

The NALP figures are based on information collected by the individual law schools. So how can TTTTs continue to claim 94%-97.4% placement rates? Because there is no audit performed. It is based on the “honor system.” But then again, there is NO honor among thieves. Have you not seen the numerous comments on this and other sites, where grads claim their employment status and salary info were deliberately omitted by their law school, so that the school could report better numbers? How can YOU defend such practices?!?

I hope I answered your concerns sufficiently. How’s that for a stocking stuffer?

Getting a job at any AG's office is almost impossible. The fact that you imply working at the NY AG's Office is the same as being a Public Defender in Ozark County, AR speaks volumes about the stock one should place in your advice.

Are you dense, anon? He is saying exactly that! "He is the personification - the definition - of well-connected. He could have gone to Pace and still ended up as the State AG!"Meaning that he got the coveted position through nepotism. Duh. Did you learn reading comprehension at some point in your career??And what did the following mean??? "The fact that you consider an Attorney General's Office to be also ran legal employment."I don't understand what you're trying to say.

nando's point is that if your daddy is the frikin' GOVERNOR and you married into the KENNEDYS, then you can successfully run for office. How many people from Albany Law School whose daddy isn't the GOVERNOR and who didn't MARRY INTO A POLITICAL DYNASTY get to be line-attorneys at the NYS AG's office? Are they even hiring anyone this year at that office?

Clearly, the first commenter on this blog entry does not understand what I lucidly put forth. I NEVER said the position of New York State Attorney General was pedestrian legal employment. And I NEVER equated it with a Public Defender job.

Hell, I would say that being the state AG of North Dakota is impressive. I mentioned that Cuomo is the son of a noteworthy, former New York governor, and that he also married into political royalty. He probably could have gone to law school at the Western New England College of Law, and later gone on to be the AG of New York. I will state this slowly, so you - i.e. Anonymous at 6:11 - can follow: Mario Cuomo’s son could have gone to a fourth-tier law school and still ended up in the illustrious position of New York State AG. Got that!?

Here is an even more blatant example of political/family connections leading directly to a high-ranking government position:

Robert Kennedy was the U.S. Attorney General back in the early 1960s. (You have at least heard of him, right?!) Anyway, guess how many trials he had done at that point in his career. None! Even Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. noted that Kennedy has no experience in state or federal court, prior to his appointment.

You have a black heart. You are usually spot on, but do you need to drill the lemmings like this? It's unnecessary and it's the holidays. But, I doagree that some of these kids do need a swift dose of reality.

For some reason, I missed the part where NY AG was compared to a publc defender in a random Arkansas county. That would seem like a poor comparison.

Cuomo definitely got his job because of his father. Name recognition alone helps. Third tier kids and fourth tier kids have a rough road ahead of them.

To respond to Angel:The term "also ran" is a bit of a insult, kind of like honorable mention. I think it comes from track. So you'll have something like "Smith won the gold, Jones won silver, and O'Neil won bronze. And blah blah blah also ran this race." In the alternative, it might've come from political races where you'd hear "Obama won the primary, Clinton came in a close second, and um... john edwards also ran in the primary."

Happy (early) new year to everyone! For the upcoming year, I plan to be more aggressive, and to take brutal reality to a whole new level on this blog.

Thank you all for following this blog, and for spreading the word about law school to others. Thanks for your contributions, including the tips, info on schools, and constructive criticisms; this serves to make this a better blog. I appreciate it. I also hope everyone stays safe, and has fun this season.

How about a discussion of pre-law advisors? I'm not quite as negative about law school(s) as you are, but I think these individuals should play a bigger role and really make sure they know what students are getting into. Often, they do not talk candidly enough about what is involved in going to law school. In fact, I believe they are told to not actively discourage applicants, including those who are almost certainly making a mistake by going to law school (ie taking on a ton of debt for tier 3/4 schools) .

A requirement by the ABA/Undergrad instiution(much more likely)/law schools to have some sort of face to face meeting with pre-law advisors could be fairly easy to institute and may do a lot more than any blog ever would. Having a respected professor tell someone face to face how bad the job market is could be a wake up call, and hits a lot harder than blogs. Just imagine; "You're LSAT of 156 and 3.5 are decent, but there is a big chance you will take on a lot of debt and come out with limited to no job prospects. You're also going to be commiting yourself to a career in the legal world, provided you can find one. I'd recommend at least taking a year or two to work and then then think about if this is what you really want to do" may change a lot of minds.

Oh, and such a meeting would also, of course, require that the advisors give some sort of short speech on the current state of the legal economy.

Honestly, I recommend that all who are upset about the legal industry just take this easy step; contact your UG/pre-law advisor and explain to them how bad the situation is and that you think prospective law students should know what they are getting into. May not make them do anything, but if it does...it would probably change a lot more minds than a blog.

By the way, that 2L at Iowa who is 2nd in his class and on law review and still couldn't find legal employment? He was bitching on ATL because he only found work at the DOJ in D.C.--not because he couldn't find legal work. He was pissed because he could not get a firm job in LA or NY and blames it on Iowa Law rather than the economy.

Question: I go to UVA law and only have a partial scholarship - Nando's advice would be to drop out? What if it moves up two spots in "the" (I'm assuming USNWR) rankings? Or do you have your own definition of "top 8"?

Objective

This blog is maintained by a graduate of a third tier law school. My goal is to educate prospective law students about the perils of obtaining a legal education. There are many pitfalls - the debt load, the oversupply of lawyers, the fact that there are not enough legal jobs to satisfy nearly 45,000 annual law graduates, and the reality that the majority of law school graduates will end up with low-paying jobs upon completion of their "legal studies."