Until recently, the Richland, Washington, shop was better known for its artistic arrangements than its stance on same-sex marriage.

But in March, Barronelle Stutzman, the shop’s 68-year-old proprietress, refused to provide wedding flowers for a longtime customer who was marrying his partner. Washington state legalized same-sex marriage in December.

An ardent evangelical, Stutzman said she agonized over the decision but couldn’t support a wedding that her faith forbids.

“I was not discriminating at all,” she said. “I never told him he couldn’t get married. I gave him recommendations for other flower shops.”

Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson disagreed, and filed a consumer protection lawsuit against Arlene’s Flowers. The ACLU also sued on behalf of the customer, Robert Ingersoll, who has said Stutzman’s refusal “really hurt, because it was someone I knew.”

Among conservative Christians, Stutzman has become a byword - part cautionary tale and part cause celebre.

Websites call her a freedom fighter. Tributes fill Arlene’s Facebook page. Donations to her legal defense fund pour in from as far away as Texas and Arkansas.

“For some reason, her case has made a lot of people of faith worry,” said Stutzman’s lawyer, Dale Schowengerdt of the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal group.

Those anxieties have only increased, conservative Christians say, since the Supreme Court struck down part of the Defense of Marriage Act and opened the door to gay marriage in California.

Taking a line from Justice Antonin Scalia's sharp dissent, Southern Baptist scholar Albert Mohler said it’s only a matter of time "before the other shoe drops" – and the high court legalizes same-sex marriage from coast to coast.

“Christians will have to think hard — and fast — about these issues and our proper response,” Mohler wrote on Wednesday.

“We will have to learn an entire new set of missional skills as we seek to remain faithful to Christ in this fast-changing culture.”

“The gay marriage debate is over,” said Jonathan Merritt, an evangelical writer on faith and culture. “Statistically, all the numbers move in one direction.”

Young Christians have grown up in a far more diverse culture than their forebears, Merritt noted, and many have befriended gays and lesbians.

Pew found that more than 90 percent of Americans overall personally know someone who is gay or lesbian, a 30 percent increase since 1993.

“It’s far easier to wage war against an agenda than it is to battle a friend,” Merritt said.

At the same time, many conservative young Christians say they’re weary of the culture wars, and of seeing their communities labeled “judgmental.”

When Christian researchers at the Barna Group asked Americans aged 16-29 what words best describe Christianity, the top response was “anti-homosexual.” That was true of more than 90 percent of non-Christians and 80 percent of churchgoers, according to Barna.

Tired of being told the country is slouching toward Gomorrah, many young Christians have simply tuned out the angry prophets of earlier generations, evangelical leaders say.

“The shrill angry voices of retrenchment are no longer getting a broad hearing either in the culture at large or in the evangelical community,” Merritt said.

But the battle over same-sex marriage is far from over, said Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage.

“I don’t believe most Christians are going to give up the fight,” said Brown, who is Catholic. He said his movement includes many young evangelical and Orthodox Christians.

“And they are more energized than ever.”

Love thy gay neighbors

Energized or not, conservative Christians must prepare for the moral dilemmas posed by the country’s growing acceptance of same-sex marriage, said Moore, the new president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.

Many evangelical pastors have seen homosexuality as a distant culture-war battle that’s fought far from the doors of the churches, Moore said.

Now, it’s as close as their front pews.

“I think it’s not so much that churches haven’t wanted to talk about it,” he said, “but they haven’t recognized how much the culture has changed around them.”

The first step, said Moore, is learning to defend traditional marriage without demonizing gays and lesbians.

Walking through Washington’s Union Station last Thursday, Moore said he saw several lesbian couples kissing in celebration of the Supreme Court rulings.

“If we can’t empathize with what’s going on in their hearts and minds, we’re not going to be able to love and respect them.”

Then come a host of secondary questions: How should conservative pastors minister to same-sex couples? Should Christians attend same-sex weddings? Should florists like Barronelle Stutzman's agree to work with gay couples?

`Don't give in'

Florist Barronelle Stutzman.

In the 17 years she’s owned Arlene’s Flowers, Stutzman said, she’s worked with a number of gay colleagues.

“It really didn’t matter if they were gay, or blue or green, if they were creative and could do the job,” she said.

Stutzman suspects that some of her eight children privately don’t agree with her on homosexuality, even as they publicly support her decision.

Online, Stutzman has been called a bigot, and worse.

She said she’s lost at least two weddings because of her refusal to provide services for the same-sex marriage.

Conservative activists say her case is the first of what will surely be many more, as gay marriage spreads across the country.

As she gets ready to face a judge, the silver-haired florist offered some advice for fellow evangelicals.

“Don’t give in. If you have to go down for Christ, what better person to go down for?”

soundoff(5,210 Responses)

How is it that homosexuals have become as a staple societal conditioning of nationalized worldly affairs? Could it be that worldly homosexual conditioning is but a perverted godlessness issue showing the world's powers the meaningless values of archaically judgmental easements whereby an end of an Age is nearing and a new Age to soon begin?

June 30, 2013 at 1:40 pm |

bostontola

Be careful, that new age is more likely to be less religious.

June 30, 2013 at 1:49 pm |

Candiano

What part of "they were born that way, it's not 'conditioning.' " continuously escapes you? Do you honestly think that being discriminated against, looked down upon, being beat up, being spit on, is something they would willingly CHOOSE? Really?

June 30, 2013 at 1:50 pm |

truth is

all sin is willingly chosen who knows why. qu eers choose to be qu eers that's what makes them the sick sinful perverts they are.

June 30, 2013 at 1:52 pm |

Bostontola

truth is, Christians used to think the sun orbited the earth, even after overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Science is testing the your unsubstantiated assertions and it doesn't look good for you. Would you have supported the arrest of Galileo too?

June 30, 2013 at 1:56 pm |

truth is

That theory was the advanced science of it's day not Christianity, don't blame God for the mistakes of man

June 30, 2013 at 2:00 pm |

Candiano

Truth is, you are uneducated... You are no more Christian than my chihuahua is. Your use of the term "queer" is testament to that. Grow up, you silly troll. You are not doing Christianity any favors with your little witticisms. You merely appear hateful.

Is a person to be born, born free and innocent of any or all productivities of social congruencies whereby as a person grows within the social decencies becomes led astray by cultural conditions whose vindictive clemencies are as preludes of servile contriteness within vulgarities of a species' transitioning?

June 30, 2013 at 2:08 pm |

Bostontola

truth is,
" don't blame God for the mistakes of man". So as a man, you may be wrong.

I can honestly see this world becoming "less religious" for societal benefits sake. For without Godliness venues within social normality, individuals become speculative and assert themselves.

June 30, 2013 at 2:21 pm |

tallulah13

LL has already admitted he has done some pretty terrible things. But he thinks his christianity absolves him of his crimes. When I look at what he writes, I don't see a decent person. I see a hateful, misogynist buffoon whose character was not improved by his new-found faith. The only thing religion gave him was an excuse for his abhorrent behavior.

June 30, 2013 at 2:22 pm |

truth is

sin is forgiven at the cross

June 30, 2013 at 2:23 pm |

Truth is - you are an evil demon pretending to be a Christian

Where in the bible does Jesus say that any sin was "filthy and disgusting"? Didn't he say to forgive 7 times 70 and then be ready to forgive again? The bible says only one sin is unforgivable and h0mos-exuality is not it

June 30, 2013 at 2:24 pm |

Bostontola

Lionly,
I don't disagree with your point. The problem is weak character people that adhere to religion do a lot of harm.

June 30, 2013 at 2:26 pm |

truth is "sin is forgiven at the cross"

Then why do you call h0mose-xuality "filthy and disgusting" if it is forgiven? Your heart belongs to Satan not to Jesus

June 30, 2013 at 2:30 pm |

truth is

forgiveness is not automatic the filthy ho mose xual can be forgiven at the cross but it needs to repent and turn away from it's filth. the cross never gives permission to sin, the cross is the cure for sin. what a horrible abuse you have just made.

June 30, 2013 at 2:33 pm |

Candiano

Yes, LL, a baby is born innocent of any wrongdoing, which includes original sin. Once their natural sexuality develops is when their orientation comes out. It isn't "learned" behavior, any more than heterosexuality is "learned."

June 30, 2013 at 2:43 pm |

Books of Creationism and Intelligent Design are banned from public schools

Because children deserve genuine scientific knowledge not religious nonsense.

"genuine scientific knowledge" is nothing but a product of Godly ingenuity within a populated world of mangled despotism.

June 30, 2013 at 1:48 pm |

Nice Try

Books… Lucifer wants God out of those schools and the Devil placed into those schools, so that a whole new generation of kids will be raised up ignorant of the truth and bound straight for hell. That's no surprise…

June 30, 2013 at 2:10 pm |

Vic

Christianity is about Faith/Believing in God Almighty, the Father, Son(Lord Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit and Salvation

Salvation at a Glance

Know that Almighty God, the Father, Son(Lord Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit, is infinite in every way. His Grace is infinite.

Blasphemy/Disbelief is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin! Just BELIEVE!!!

Matthew 12:31,32
"31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

John 3:16,17
"16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

John 12:47
"47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."

Romans 5:6
"6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

Ephesians 2:8,9
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

That's what makes one a Christian. It doesn't matter what we differ in details beyond that!

June 30, 2013 at 1:54 pm |

tallulah13

Basically, the bible tells Vic to believe. So Vic believes. Some people find it easier to follow orders (no matter the source) than to think for themselves.

June 30, 2013 at 2:26 pm |

Apple Bush

First, separate the head from the body. Then commence being a Republican.

June 30, 2013 at 1:17 pm |

bostontola

Wrong blog, this is the argument clinic. Abuse is down the hall to the left.

June 30, 2013 at 1:22 pm |

Over 40,000 sects of insanity

One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one (over four million members) in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage. One sect, the Westboro Baptist Church believes Americans are being killed at war because America is too kind to "fags". Many of these sects are equally divergent on the roles of women in society.

One sect believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Christ will return to Jerusalem AND Jackson County, Missouri. Some believe the Pope is the Antichrist. Some believe Obama is the Antichrist.

Some believe that celibacy is the only option for certain people, or for people in certain positions. Many of the people from these same institutions advocate against abortion, but pretend not to understand the realistic benefit of the morning after pill or even basic contraception; their unrealistic wishful thinking is causing the death of many at the hands of disease.

Recently we learned from CNN of a child dying when their parents, members of a Christian sect in Philadelphia, as part of their faith, refused medical care. When incidents like the subject of this article come to light, many Christians are only too ready to try explain how another Christian's interpretation of ancient "scripture" is not quite right. Thirty one states have child abuse religious exemption laws. Faith healing churches have been linked to 2 dozen child deaths.

Conflicted right from the start, Christianity has resulted in extreme divisions, with each division trying to assert itself as some true messenger of the word of the Christian God.

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

We are coming to a new age where most the old governing laws and tradition will soon be obsolete! Religionfortheworld.wordpress.com Check Out: The Real God Pt. 1, 2, and 3

June 30, 2013 at 1:07 pm |

Erik

Being anti-gay is the most visible thing that Christianity stands for now. That's why among 18-30 year old's, "no religion" is now the plurality, the largest religious demographic group. It's going to destroy the church if this continues much longer. Look at the supposed "hero" florist from this story - old and white haired. Who will take her place in the pews when she's gone? No one.

June 30, 2013 at 1:01 pm |

Apple Bush

If only we could be alive long enough to see who the people crown the next messiah.

June 30, 2013 at 1:08 pm |

truth is

there is no "gay" only the perverted sickness of sin called ho mose xuality

June 30, 2013 at 1:16 pm |

bostontola

truth is,
Things you call sins that are legal in the US are and will be protected. I love that the US protects people against the tyranny of some Christians like you.

June 30, 2013 at 1:21 pm |

lol??

Herod was into heroes, 'sides massacring babies.

"A demigod is the son or daughter from one immortal and one mortal " wiki, Wonder where they got that idea??

June 30, 2013 at 1:21 pm |

truth is

there is no tyranny in Truth ho mose xual behavior is sin

June 30, 2013 at 1:34 pm |

Hello

the next messiah is here,, he just promised 9 billion American tax payer earned dollars to provide energy to Africa..
a part of the world that is drowning in myth and ignorance...thinking he will somehow save them from their stupidity by putting a light bulb in every shack of a multi wife save owner.
What will the Americans will get from this savoir....??? more debt. perhaps millions of refugees shipped here to be put on our welfare program to keep the socialist goal moving ahead a planned.

coming to your neighborhood... in less than 3 yrs. millions of freeloaders. banging on your door to be let in to take over your home.. knowing that you will NOT have an guns to protect yourself your family or what you worked a lifetime for.. because god obama says it really is all his and he can do what ever he wants to do with it.
Our taxes will go up.... to 50% then 60%.. then 70% so on... then it will be literately pointless for anyone to work...The the war on democarcy will be won.. we will all be praying to Allah and thank his son for giving peace to the world.

June 30, 2013 at 1:39 pm |

Candiano

Then don't engage in it, truth is. Nobody is compelling you to.

June 30, 2013 at 1:40 pm |

bostontola

Like I said, legal things that some Christians call sin are protected in the US. Learn to live with that fact, our country protects us from you.

June 30, 2013 at 1:46 pm |

Nice Try

Erk… God is anti-gay. And I stand on the side of God. There is no crime in standing on the side of God no matter what the unbelievers feel or say...

June 30, 2013 at 1:52 pm |

tallulah13

However, it is very much against the law to deny service to a customer because of their sexual orientation. I hope this lady is prosecuted to the full extent of the law, because this is the United States and in the United States, the Constitution trumps your god every time.

June 30, 2013 at 2:32 pm |

Nice Try " God is anti-gay"

Jesus wasn't. please quote where Jesus says he is "anti-gay"

June 30, 2013 at 3:01 pm |

Mark from Middle River

God didn't even mention being anti-gay in the Ten Commandments.

June 30, 2013 at 3:05 pm |

Vic

Romans 1:20
"20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Colossians 1:16
"16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

Hebrews 11:3
"3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible."

Acts 17:24-28
"24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’"

How interested would you be to see quotes from the Quran posted here... or from the Bhagavad Gita... or from the Hindu Vedas... or from numerous other religions' scriptures?

Your quotes are irrelevant.

The Bible is

June 30, 2013 at 1:04 pm |

Doobs

Wow, more bible quotes from Vic.

June 30, 2013 at 1:04 pm |

Keeping It Real

* oops, finishing last sentence:

The Bible is not verified evidence of any god or its thoughts.

June 30, 2013 at 1:05 pm |

Hello

clue the christian myth was created by the ROMANs.... The book or ROMANs in the bible.... DAH

June 30, 2013 at 1:42 pm |

Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

Prayer changes things .

June 30, 2013 at 12:42 pm |

Secular Humanist from Ohio

Evolution changes things.

June 30, 2013 at 12:48 pm |

bostontola

I agree, people pray, people change things naturally. No god required.

June 30, 2013 at 12:48 pm |

truth is

evolution remains an unproven thoery

June 30, 2013 at 12:49 pm |

truth is

God is always required

June 30, 2013 at 12:49 pm |

Nice Try

Secular... Evolution is a lie. Always was. Always will be...

June 30, 2013 at 12:50 pm |

bostontola

truth is,
Evolution and gravity are physical phenomena. They are directly observable, i.e. facts. The theories developing to describe those phenomena, like all science, are constantly getting tested and refined. They may not be perfect (the gravity theories are not perfect), but the underlying phenomena are indisputable.

June 30, 2013 at 12:55 pm |

Secular Humanist from Ohio

Sorry guys, I don't have any quarters for your cups today.

June 30, 2013 at 12:57 pm |

truth is

there are no conclusive facts regarding evolution

June 30, 2013 at 12:57 pm |

bostontola

truth is,
Your lack of knowledge of the mountain of facts regarding evolution doesn't mean they aren't there. Scientists can watch as flies reproduce and see mutations. They can measure mutation rate. They can observe the form changes and directly connect them to changes in the genes/DNA. There are other organisms they can do this with as well. I recommend you take Lincoln's advice; remain silent and appear a fool, open your mouth and remove all doubt.

June 30, 2013 at 1:06 pm |

Ok Fine

So where is this Daniel Burke when this obvious troll posts the same tripe over and over again day after day, month after month?

June 30, 2013 at 1:07 pm |

Keeping It Real

Ok Fine,

Sheesh. Mr. Burke just started. Give him a chance, ok?

You might try notifying him of particular instances which bother you. He said to contact him at his Twitter address or at his CNN email one.

June 30, 2013 at 1:12 pm |

Atheism is healthy for everyone! Pets too!

And prayer is just a time-sucker-upper.

June 30, 2013 at 1:14 pm |

Bob

I'm an atheist and my dogs and kids are very healthy.

June 30, 2013 at 1:45 pm |

Ok Fine

Poor proofreading Just so you "know",,,,

June 30, 2013 at 1:59 pm |

Keeping It Real

Ok Fine,

@Atheism is not... is silly and annoying, but takes up little space and is easily ignored (or has presented an opportunity for lots of debunking).

It seems as though you object to his/her screen name more than the bumper sticker message – yes?

June 30, 2013 at 2:14 pm |

Ok Fine

Yes, I do owe an apology to Mr. Burke, missed his response to me on page 26 before posting on this thread. Keeping it real, I normally do not respond to the obvious trolls and will slip back into that practice after this post.

June 30, 2013 at 2:20 pm |

Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

Prayer changes things
Proven .

June 30, 2013 at 2:20 pm |

tallulah13

Isn't it funny how people with names like "truth is" are generally the biggest liars on any blog?

June 30, 2013 at 2:33 pm |

mama k

Poster "Rainer Braendlein" says "Gayness is a slippery way.".

Christianity never likes being informed it's out of date or just outright wrong. But that's where things stand right now on the topic of homosexuality. A lot of good scripture is going to do anyone when they simply fall behind current science.

Current psychology and biology both tell us differently. Read about epigenetics. It's not new although there was a very interesting recent article relating to homosexuality in last December's Quarterly Review of Biology. But we've known about the evidence of epigenetics in nature for quite some time.

Read about epigenetics and aphids:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/gri/2012/431531/

Read about this recent post:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130509123647.htm

Read something! Don't just stay ignorant!

–The earth is not flat

–The sun does not revolve around the earth

–Being gay is not a choice

The longer Christianity stays conflicted where a portion of its adherents are out of touch with current science, the faster Christianity itself will become irrelevant, especially among the younger generations who are well-informed and very connected in this information age.

June 30, 2013 at 12:35 pm |

lol??

mama k, just to let you know I did read your quotes on epigenetics. Like all science it will be used in warfare.

June 30, 2013 at 12:39 pm |

mama k

Genetics and related fields will certain pose many challenges in the near future, lol??. But it still does not excuse the uniformed, the intentionally ignorant from ignoring current knowledge about homosexuality.

June 30, 2013 at 12:55 pm |

lol??

My take is some is, some ain't.

June 30, 2013 at 1:26 pm |

lol??

if God throws the switch your time for choices might be over. The race is gonna find that out the hard way.

June 30, 2013 at 1:28 pm |

Nice Try

Mama K… The science you refer to is of the devil and is being controlled by Lucifer. To know the truth you have to get it from God. And since you don't know God, it's not a wonder you don't have any truth either..

June 30, 2013 at 1:57 pm |

mama k

Nice try: "The science you refer to is of the devil a"

LMAO! WOW – is that the best you have to offer?? Just WOW.

June 30, 2013 at 4:13 pm |

Keith

They'll come along the same way evangelicals came along after WW II when they mistakenly believed God told them mixed races was an abomination.

June 30, 2013 at 12:26 pm |

lol??

Any sources for that belief??

June 30, 2013 at 12:36 pm |

Nice Try

Except that the bible makes it very plain that being gay is an abomination. And there is no confusion about that...

Leviticus 18:22 – Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination...

June 30, 2013 at 12:37 pm |

Doobs

Eventually they'll take credit for championing gay rights all along.

June 30, 2013 at 12:37 pm |

Candiano

Doesn't the Bible also say not to mix the races??
Lol??, apparently you completely forgot the civil rights era, and the Loving ruling. But I am not surprised.

June 30, 2013 at 12:40 pm |

Keeping It Real

Nice Try,

Sure, just because that was the opinion of a group of primitive Hebrews from the Middle East it must be the real deal, huh?

June 30, 2013 at 12:44 pm |

Nice Try

Keeping It Real... For you information, it is the opinion of God. All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, meaning God told those prophets what to write...

Nice Try,
" All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, meaning God told those prophets what to write..."

That is also an opinion.

June 30, 2013 at 12:52 pm |

truth is

Your prejudice clearly shows as it is rare to see so much Bible misrepresented in such a short context.

June 30, 2013 at 12:53 pm |

Doobs

For you information, it is the opinion of God.

Glad to see you finally admit that all this sky fairy stuff is just someone's opinion.

June 30, 2013 at 12:54 pm |

lol??

Paul worked his head off so Christians would not have to be the fools the unbelievers are with their "pickin' and choosin'".

June 30, 2013 at 12:55 pm |

Candiano

Are you saying that none of what I stated is in the OT, truth is?

June 30, 2013 at 12:58 pm |

lol??

candy sayz,
"..........apparently you completely forgot the civil rights era, and the Loving ruling. But I am not surprised."

Nope just wanted to get on the same page.
I've always held to the one race thingy with Noe and all, just like Jesus did.

June 30, 2013 at 12:59 pm |

truth is

you appear to be wrong on all your biblical assumptions

June 30, 2013 at 1:00 pm |

lol??

BTW, that's why I believe if you ever make contact with beings from space, they won't be friendlies. They wouldn't have a savior. Jesus died ONCE for the penalty of sin.

June 30, 2013 at 1:02 pm |

oOo

@Nice try

Religious folk are very conflicted over the concept that being gay is OK or not. Not so much with science, anymore. You don't think the younger generations (and many older) have picked up on this, "Nice try"? There are millions of members of Christian denominations in the U.S. that belong to denominations who are marrying gay couples. Stay in your cave if you like, but the writing is on the . . . . internet and more.

June 30, 2013 at 1:03 pm |

Nice Try

Keeping It Real… No scripture is an opinion. All scriptures are the words of the eternal God…

In contrast, your feelings otherwise is just an opinion…

June 30, 2013 at 1:03 pm |

Keeping It Real

Nice Try,

"All scriptures are the words of the eternal God…" = an opinion.

June 30, 2013 at 1:08 pm |

Doobs

No scripture is an opinion.

For you information, it is the opinion of God.

You can't even keep your lies straight.

June 30, 2013 at 1:09 pm |

Nice Try

Candiano… A devil that quotes a scripture is still a devil. And an evil motive is still an evil motive. And quoting a scripture doesn't make you otherwise. So what you said don't mean a thing because you're not of God and have no understanding of even the scriptures you're quoting…

Psalms 37:30 – The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. 31 The law of his God is in his heart. 32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him…

June 30, 2013 at 1:09 pm |

Candiano

And Jesus also said not one word about gays, lol??.
And it's Candiano, lol??. Would you like me to assign you a nickname?

June 30, 2013 at 1:11 pm |

Richard Cranium

Nice try
Scripture simply means something that is written...all of the words on this page and every other page in the world is scripture. No god ever wrote a single word anywhere. All written by men. You BELIEVE that your god had something to do with it being written, but there is absolutely no evidence anywhere to back it up.
OOOOH look at all the scripture I just created....like the writers of the bible...created by men. Oh by the way...god inspired me to write this....you can't prove otherwise so you must believe it...right?

June 30, 2013 at 1:12 pm |

truth is

You are wrong about Jesus also

June 30, 2013 at 1:13 pm |

Candiano

In other words, what Nice Try just said to me is:
"Yes, it's in the OT, but since I'm not going to admit you are right, I will call you names instead."
Nice try.
And, you just broke the 9th Commandment by lying about me.
How does that make you feel?

June 30, 2013 at 1:23 pm |

Nice Try

To "Keeping it Real, "Doob"… Apparently guys are too dumb to understand that the "opinion of man" and the "opinion of God" are not the same thing. The opinion of man means nothing. Whereas, the opinion of God means everything, and however he feels is "fact"… Unfortunately, you're too ignorant to know that…

You can always tell when a person has nothing else more intelligent to say when the only thing they can find to talk about is the most mundane things – such as arguing over the word "opinion". If you guys don't have anything more intelligent to say then I don't have time for your nonsense…

June 30, 2013 at 1:27 pm |

Richard Cranium

Nice try
You claim that which is gods opinion (as if you would know) is fact...okay...if it is fact, where is the proof. First you will of course , have to show some proof of any of thousands of gods, then proof that the god you have shown is in fact your god, and then somehow confirm that his opinion is fact. Otherwise, it is nothing but BELIEF and in no way factual.
Weak try,nice try.

June 30, 2013 at 1:38 pm |

Nice Try

Richard Cranium… And where exactly did you get all that nonsense from? – that every word on every page in the world is scripture. That is utter nonsense. It seems someone has sold you a pack of lies. And you've bought it – hook, line and sinker. Keep believing all that nonsense and it'll take your soul to hell…

You state, "No god ever wrote a single word anywhere". Please show us your proof to back up tthat fact. Talk is cheap, and your own personal opinion don't mean a thing…

The following scripture is talking about people like you. You've fallen prey to "seducing spirits" and have given heed to "doctrines of devils". Doctrines of devils are false beliefs that comes from the devil designed to lure you and to send your soul to hell. And you've fallen for it – hook, line and sinker…

1 Timothy 4:1 – Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith (ie, depart from the truth), giving heed to seducing spirits (ie, things which sound good to them), and doctrines of devils (ie, false teachings and false beliefs); 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron…

June 30, 2013 at 1:38 pm |

Hello

slavery is not condemned in the bible so why don't we have slaves? the Jesus character clearly gives rules for both slave owners and slaves.. so WHY did we outlaw slavery? it is Jesus approved...

It was taken over by religious people, but literally all that is written is scripture.
I do not have to prove that men wrote the bible...we are the only ones who ever put pen to paper. You believe that there was some god that had some part in it....show your evidence...I am not the one claiming something. We know that men write...we do not know that any gods do. Just because someone calls something a god spell does not mean that it came from a god.

And for you:

"Hymn 43"

Oh father high in heaven - smile down upon your son
whose busy with his money games - his women and his gun.
Oh Jesus save me!
And the unsung Western hero killed an Indian or three
and made his name in Hollywood
to set the white man free.
Oh Jesus save me!
If Jesus saves - well, He'd better save Himself
from the gory glory seekers who use His name in death.
Oh Jesus save me!
I saw him in the city and on the mountains of the moon -
His cross was rather bloody -
He could hardly roll His stone.
Oh Jesus save me!

Quoting from your story book to an atheist is really pointless, since I know its history, how corrupted it is, and how wrong it is, disproven in many areas and I do not believe its claims . To think it is some devine work...well either your diety is very weak since so much is flat out wrong, or he does not exist in the first place. To believe it is to ignore facts, logic and reason, but that is what faith is isn't it. The ability to ignore logic and reason, and leap to an unjustifiable conclusion based on nothing. If you could see it using logic and reason, there would be no need for faith.
Try again , nice try

June 30, 2013 at 2:02 pm |

Richard Cranium

and also nice try
You may want to stop bearing false witness against me...it is one of your big no-no's
I have nothing to do with any devils of any sort since they do not exist.
You will have to prove they do exist or you are guilty of bearing false witness against me.
It is people like you that hunted witches....Do you know how many witches the christians have killed over the years?....none, because they don't exist either.

June 30, 2013 at 2:10 pm |

Keeping It Real

Nice Try,

It is your opinion that The Bible is the opinion of a god ("God"). It is not fact.

Gayness is a slippery way. Only someone who is in darkness walks along such a way. Return to God who is the Light, and you will quickly realize how slippery your way is, and leave it.

The broad acceptance of gay lifestyle in the Western societies is a clear indicator for the fact that we have forsaken our dwelling in God. The worst thing is not gayness in itself but the fact that the most of us have forsaken the God who has made heaven and earth. This God is Life, Love and Community in Himself (without God there would be no Life, no Love, and no Community). The reason why depression, lonelyness, madness, diseases of the soul and body, etc. spread so much amongst us is the fact that we have forsaken the Life which is God and submitted to the powers of death.

Dwelling in God is not just a theoretical term but means something. When we are in God we are channels of his infinite love that means we love our neighbour even on the cost of our own well-being.

God will not judge us at Judgement Day because we have not been in an just "imaginary" state (dwelling in God) but because we have not loved our neighbour who was in need, and were not ready to share our goods with our neighbour.

At Judgement Day only the really evil people will get condemned. Yet not only murder or hate is evil but also the neglect of the neighbour.

If we would still be in God we would perceive gayness as a confusion of se-xuality. Yet, we have forsaken him, and we are controled by the rulers of darkness or powers of death which give us ill, perverse thoughts so that we regard evil things as right.

http://confessingchurch.wordpress.com

June 30, 2013 at 12:22 pm |

Candiano

Being gay is natural to the gay person. Just as being hetero is to you. I know that you've been told this; why you are on here once again to say differently is beyond me...oh, I see. It's to spam your website and get free advertising by stealing from CNN. BAM! 8th commandment broken.

June 30, 2013 at 12:28 pm |

Nice Try

ardinano… What lunacy. Saying that "being gay is natural to the gay person" is just like saying committing murder is natural to a murderer, and that raping people is natural to a rapist. Even if that was the case (and it is not), that wouldn't make it right. Being gay is still a sin. And the only way you could even make such a stupid statement like that is you have no clue what being gay even is…

June 30, 2013 at 12:45 pm |

Candiano

First of all, my name is Candiano.
Second of all, gay people are born that way. Since you have proven to be resistant to any kind of edification in that area, it is useless to continue to engage you.
You have shown yourself to be a literalist, so I will assume that you treat your slaves well, have married the virgin you raped, and have dashed your enemy's children against rocks.
And I think it is you that is ignorant of what being gay is. It's your natural inclination to condemn what you don't understand. I get it.
You may certainly deny that gay people don't have a choice in the gender they are attracted to. That's fine. Fortunately, you are irrelevant when considering what laws are passed concerning gay people. And for that, I thank the Constitution.

June 30, 2013 at 1:35 pm |

truth is

you are still misrepresenting the Bible and ho mose xual sin is not a birth defect it is a planned and conducted act

June 30, 2013 at 1:40 pm |

Hello

turth.. I would pray to your god if I knew that he could make all your offspring gay.. so you can deal with your gay issues with those who not only have your genes, name and looks.. but also your mythic madness. in a very personal way the rest of your life.

June 30, 2013 at 1:54 pm |

Candiano

Truth is, you can repeat that as many times as you want, but it just isn't true, and as I stated before, your use of the OT HAS to apply to ALL the rules, not just the ones that justify your personal prejudices.
I am not misrepresenting the OT. You are.
And no, Jesus never said word one about gay people. And please don't quote Mathew 19. There is not one word about gay people there, either.

June 30, 2013 at 2:15 pm |

bostontola

Many Christians don't understand gay relationships and want to restrict their rights. I don't understand people that believe in Bronze Age stories, but I don't seek to restrict their right to those beliefs.

June 30, 2013 at 12:09 pm |

lol??

Get your servants out of the marriage business. They are unqualified.

June 30, 2013 at 12:12 pm |

Candiano

When God comes down and marries people personally, I will consider your suggestion, lol??. Until then, not so much.
People were getting married long before Genesis was even written. The Bible doesn't hold a copyright on marriage.

June 30, 2013 at 12:20 pm |

bostontola

lol??,
You are unqualified to make that judgment.

June 30, 2013 at 12:34 pm |

marge

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

June 30, 2013 at 12:00 pm |

Candiano

Like you train up a dog? Nice.

June 30, 2013 at 12:09 pm |

icarus

I think that is a naive view of the world. Kids are incredibly random and never wind up how we think they will. Psych research also concretely demonstrates that we have traits that we are born with and can't particularly change, but have to accept and adapt to.

Take as evidence that the overwhelming majority of gay people experience their love as something unalterable about themselves. Why would it be the one mistake God wouldn't make?

June 30, 2013 at 12:18 pm |

Candiano

What's a socie, lol?? Want to repeat what you said in English this time?

June 30, 2013 at 12:23 pm |

Nice Try

Marge... Don't even waste your times with these fools...

Proverbs 23:9 – Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

June 30, 2013 at 12:33 pm |

lol??

lol??
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Socies have puppy mills for their trainin'.

June 30, 2013 at 12:35 pm |

tallulah13

Certainly you can teach a child that homosexuality is wrong, but it won't change the fact that some kids are born gay. All you are teaching is hatred, and in the saddest cases, you are teaching children to hate themselves. At best you are teaching a lie, and at worst you are damaging an innocent life. Abuse in the name of god is still abuse.

June 30, 2013 at 2:42 pm |

Richard Cranium

You aren't very nice try
ALL the information that we have on the subject of $exuality differs from your opinion. No one chooses. To say differently is just denying the mountains of evidence that say there is no choice, although because of hormones, there can be ambiguity.

Try this....try choosing to be gay....just for a month...you don't even have to act on it, just will yourself to be gay. If you are correct, you will be able to just choose to go back.
I will bet that you can't do it....and neither can anyone else.

June 30, 2013 at 3:49 pm |

Alias

'lol??' actually means Lucifer our lord.
Just so you all know.

June 30, 2013 at 11:47 am |

Candiano

It IS difficult to tell at times.

June 30, 2013 at 12:07 pm |

lol??

Choose yer gods wisely.

June 30, 2013 at 12:34 pm |

Jake from St Farm

I cant wait for my generation to run this country so this will all go away. They are just people, let them be happy.

June 30, 2013 at 11:46 am |

bostontola

Learn from our mistakes and lead well.

June 30, 2013 at 11:56 am |

Generation Khakis?

...

June 30, 2013 at 11:57 am |

Saraswati

I will be glad, too, but remember that every generation has said the same thing and been equally sure of themselves.

June 30, 2013 at 12:01 pm |

Doobs

Don't be so quick to dismiss older people, either. Many of us have always believed that everyone deserves equal rights.

Ageism is just another form of discrimination. We have to work together to make the world a better place. All of us. It's not just a matter of waiting for us olds to die so you can take over and "fix everything".

June 30, 2013 at 12:31 pm |

Linda

Ha! Well said Doobs, ageism is still going strong. That may be the "next" big struggle.

June 30, 2013 at 12:36 pm |

bostontola

I'm old, don't feel discriminated against.

June 30, 2013 at 12:50 pm |

Saraswati

I like to believe we have a general trend of progress, but we definitely have more agism now than in many eras, and we've lost a lot of feminist gains over the last decade or so. Young people today also appear to show less empathy when tested and spend a lot less time studying, expecting more for less. I still think the trend is in the right direction..more overall knowledge as more people are educated, greater tolerance and greater openness. But to think we're on a purely unidirectional path of progress is to put out heads in the sand.

"Alliance Defending Freedom" indeed! Such sass. They want Freedom for anybody who is not gay.

June 30, 2013 at 11:44 am |

bostontola

Christians,
You don't have to understand gay attraction. I don't, but I support their rights. That was the genius of our founding fathers, they created a system that protected the minority from the majority. I have profound respect for that system, you should too. Please don't tell me that god's law transcends our system, if you think that, you need to move to a country with a state religion.

June 30, 2013 at 11:42 am |

Saraswati

I don't understand people who eat olives ... or watch football.

June 30, 2013 at 11:45 am |

bostontola

Saraswati, is that American football or soccer? Just kidding.

June 30, 2013 at 11:49 am |

lol??

Just get the gubmint out of family business and quit makin' refugees with your bullyin'. You are NOT gonna get Christian approval. The pleasure is not worth it.

"Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

June 30, 2013 at 11:49 am |

PeaceMan

You should probably address that to "some" Christians. Not all are anti-h.mos.xuality. Many support and fight for g@y rights.

June 30, 2013 at 11:51 am |

bostontola

PeaceMan,
You're right!

June 30, 2013 at 11:54 am |

PeaceMan

Maybe "conservative Christians."

June 30, 2013 at 11:55 am |

Richard Cranium

saraswati
I don't understand people that watch olives or eat footballs.

June 30, 2013 at 11:56 am |

Saraswati

bostonola, I was going to clarify, but figured, what's the point since I don't understand watching either. And the thought of olives makes me sick to my stomach. Does that make eating them unnatural?

June 30, 2013 at 11:58 am |

Saraswati

@Richard, yeah, that either.

June 30, 2013 at 11:59 am |

Hello

When the christian myth was first declared to be the national religion of Rome.. all other religions were put on notice.. you.. to convert of die. The pagans.. complied.... and worshiped the Roman Caesar's as gods.. but the Jews refused. Hence the Jews were slaughtered for it.
Then as now.. the christian myth was used as a political tool.. you do not need a huge expensive army to control people if you give a myth, god and dogma to control them... its cheap government control.

for more on how this was created.. read Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill... check out his web site for links to his research.
To the Creators of the christian myth it was to be used as a political tool. it has a powerful pyramid support structure so people can make a living off the myth - aka churches.. and also funnel money to the nest... of the mythic culture guards. The first being the Roman catholic church.. who's first popes were members of the Flavian family..

It is time the truth of this huge 2000yr + ponzie scheme is revealed. The real history of the times it was created in and how it was created and who the characters REALLY WERE..

Joe has a new book coming out soon "The Single Strand" which is to reveal more info on the bible..
Joe's research will be a major game changer for the Age of Supernatural Belief on this planet.. Those who have reaped the wealth and power from the masses will most likely be the ones who will scream the loudest against Joe's work.. because it will but an end to their feeding off the gullible...

June 30, 2013 at 11:41 am |

The Age of the Gullible...

is coming to an end, finally.

June 30, 2013 at 11:45 am |

Hello

Read Caesar's Messiah..by Joseph Atwill.. check out him videos and audio links... YES.. the age of the Gullible is coming to an end.... The Roman family joke is now open for all to see. and UNDERSTAND.

June 30, 2013 at 11:51 am |

PeaceMan

No, Rome did not invent Jesus.

June 30, 2013 at 11:54 am |

Hello

Gullible is not found in christian dictionaries.... hehe.....but secular ones it is... it is a word the christians are very afraid to use.. because it is the weakness they feed their flocks.

"No, Rome did not invent Jesus." Rome invented the Jesus that most Christians worship today which likely has very little likeness to the first century carpenters son.

June 30, 2013 at 11:59 am |

PeaceMan

Jesus Christ is still alive. The ancient Romans did not invent that. They have absolutely not control over it. They are all dead.

June 30, 2013 at 12:05 pm |

PeaceMan

Your post is spam, man. You are trying to sell books.

The author is doing what he claims the Romans did: make up stories.

June 30, 2013 at 12:16 pm |

Hello

I am not trying to sell books.. I am in not way associated with Joe...other than I know what he is saying is true... the cost of his book is very reasonable.. compared to what the information it has... you don't even have to by the book... go to his web site and view his videos and listen to his audios... but to get the details you need to read them in the book..
I hope in time.. his video will be available on TV or Netflix FREE..
Joe is NOT into this for the money... he just wants to share his discovery... and it is a huge discovery..

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.