Comments on: The environment vs. freedom and wealthhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/
California's Oldest Newspaper - Est. 1851Sat, 01 Aug 2015 00:47:47 -0700hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.0.1By: francescaduchamp@att.nethttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609486
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:49:17 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609486Several people told me that a group is doing damage control–they are sending out emails saying the meeting has nothing to do with Agenda 21–since I do not know what this is…can someone explain it or put out links. I said that the meeting used a The Delphi Technique to move the responses in a certain way…this is a well known sales pitch–used on product or “idea” promotions. Once it is called to anyone s attention–they will start seeing it as well. Just from the description in the paper that I posted…people have called…understanding it was used.
]]>By: M. Schumannhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609241
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 05:39:40 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609241Cookie you are so right on, if common since was a snake the left wouldn’t exist. I just watched on TV the Men that Made America, they would never been able to do what they did for the economy today what they did then; they would have been put in jail and the key thrown away. It just goes to show you that our government and the regulations have stifled the expansion of a once great nation, we are in deep dodo and it keeps getting deeper.
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609214
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 04:48:20 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609214I have a question for the green house gas lemmings. Since the oceans and the rain forest produce more green house gases in a single day than all of mans activities has since the industrial age, what shall we do about them? You do realize that without green house gases you wouldn’t survive over night? They do just as they are named. They trap heat and store in the atmosphere making our survival possible during the periods when we are not directly warmed by the sun (overnight). Those oceans of coal that exist back east are the result of massive amount of vegitation that existed when there was a whole lot more co2 in the atmosphere than we can ever release. That is how it got trapped there. By the way, we do not create or produce co2, it already existed and has been in the atmosphere many times before at much higher levels than we will ever measure, we merely re-release it. When it was in the atmosphere before north America looked more like Hawaii. Think of it this way, how much vegetation would be required to feed a few dozen brachiosaurus’? Very large bare skinned creatures lived in what is now Wyoming where they could not live today.
]]>By: clleahttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609191
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 04:03:45 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609191Yes, I do know it is a billion. I am not a good multi-tasker. Thanks for pointing that out. You never disappoint.
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609185
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:41:51 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609185Cllea, other than being a clueless twit what other qualities do you possess? The earth is assumed to by @4.6 billion years old. The oldest rocks ever found actually came from the lunar surface dated at @3.9billion years. None ever found on earth that old. There is plenty of accepted evidence that the earth is at least .5 billion years older than the moon. If there is some subject you wish to discuss just let me know and I will tell you more off the top of my head than you have ever learned.
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609182
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:35:08 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609182There is no one with two eyes and two ears who cannot see the environmental movement as one continuous propaganda campaign. Children are indoctinated with it on the paper placemats an IHOP. Cartoons, commercials, music, every form of media on an endless basis. The side of buses, the side of garbage trucks, park benches, billboards, advertisements, indoctinated from birth. Not a single 24 hour period without it being repeated for them. How many time does someone need to be reminded of gravity? But think of it this way. It is a small investment to be able to take control of trillion of dollars. Convince some young impressionable minds of something that makes them feel guilty and own their behavior for life. Just keep repeating it and people will beleive. ala Joseph Goebbels.
]]>By: Martinhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609181
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:30:40 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609181I agree completely our forest land is fine, I believe that you have to have a permit to clear cut so it was within the boundaries of lawful. Shutting down an industry that replants is BS if you look at pictures of the towns around here back in the 1800s not a tree in sight, but today you would never know that they clear cut everything. Nature works in mysterious ways and yes to dredging being banned is total BS that alone took millions of dollars out of the pockets of gold hounds and well wishers, it is something that this state was founded on and has been in the past a huge draw for the fortune hunters of not just this state but from all over America. Many people were hurt when they placed a moratorium on dredging when they hadn’t even determined scientifically that it was harmful. Now that they have done an EIR on dredging and the effects they have found that the test showed no significant harm to the environment and not one place did they say that it was a significant risk to the environment; since they couldn’t prove it bad they passed legislation to stop it. This is what you get when you have personnel agendas against something and you have the power to stop whatever you want to stop, the Sierra Fund and Sierra Club are the culprits that feel that is there way or the highway.
]]>By: francescaduchamp@att.nethttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609180
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:30:22 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609180chrispytahoe…no worries…the Texas side goes all the way back to the original thirteen colonies..along the line–the Irish came aboard. Quite a mix of people living off the land or working with nature. My grandmother (duchamp) stood at 4’11”–toughest woman I have ever known.
Farmer. My family are still farmers, loggers and ranchers.
]]>By: clleahttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609170
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:18:10 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609170Feel better? And, of course, our world is only 6 thousand years old.
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609149
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:10:46 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609149Crispy, the environment is a political issue because the left made it one. How much money has changed hands and how much wealth has been redistributed under the guise of the environment. I would wager that the “environment” has led to one of the largest tranfers of wealth in all of human history. A tunnel to the bank by every definition. If those who have bought into the environmental issues beleive it isn’t about money they are only fooling themselves. Let me help you understand one thing. OIL and COAL are produced by this planet and have been since before man existed. They are not polution. They are in fact part of the environment. I can explain it to you in a way even you can understand. Maybe not Richard and Rob. Imagine being a carbon life form believing carbon is a polution.
]]>By: Deehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609137
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 02:42:55 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609137Chrispy-So the rules that interfer with your dredging are “total BS”. Well, it is less BS then shutting down an entire industry for the spotted owls. This is an example of your hypocrisy.
]]>By: Deehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609136
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 02:34:03 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609136Evelyn-thank you for recognizing that many times those that say they are looking for compromise means forcing the other person to relinquish their core principles. Also, I have discovered for the last few years that it doesn’t matter how you try to find common ground the (yes, about to use a political decriptive phrase) the big government Democrats only want capitulation. I no longer can join hands and sing “Kumbaya”.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609129
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 02:15:03 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609129BTW: The “middle way”, though safe, is not necessarily optimal. Sometimes “an extremist” is simply someone who has chosen not to play it safe. Most advances come from those who dare to step beyond what is presently known and accepted.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609128
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 02:10:04 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609128cllea, regarding seeing “both sides” – Commonly we treat reality as though there were but two positions: left/right, liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat, pro-/anti-, right/wrong, or whatever. In reality, there are many positions that can’t be so conveniently pigeonholed. Most commonly we each hold our own opinion or experience to be “correct”, generally labeling negatively whatever is not our own. Therein lies the source of much grief, rancor, misunderstanding, and ignorance. Life, experience and truth are not so simple.
]]>By: DB Smithhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609127
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 02:05:45 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609127cllea, I’ll bet you are Richard’s psyc. nurse. If anyone is arrogant, rants and bullies people, it is certainly the liberal media, Obama and his Administration.
]]>By: clleahttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609119
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 01:45:12 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609119Mr. Furniture, yes, I too know that there is always a common ground between people. Sometimes taking the time to find it is the challenge. Thanks for taking the time. And, yes, for sure finding our political place, also takes living life. Isn’t it great?! I didn’t grow up in a house of any political or religious ideals. Work and helping those in need in the community is all I knew until I jumped into another world, and the games began :). I appreciated Ronald Reagan. Overall, I thought he was a good President. Today, I don’t think he would even be nominated. I am a moderate, looking for ways both sides can come together, but it really has gone beyond politics, but there has to be a way. I value most everyones opinions, and do try to see both sides and agree with some. What I can’t tolerate is the far, far right from the Tea Party. They rant, beat people up and bully when someone expresses a difference. My mind recognizes them as not a value to a healthy way of life. These extremists are weak, weak in character and I will try to ignore them. I do love the word “snarky”! I used it today with one of my patients–it couldn’t register with her though. I will most probably be snarky in the future because I like it! Oh, and Mr. Furniture, you and Richard stop pissing on the bushes! :)) Mr. Gibney, thank you for responding. Your life has been rich with experience and has taught you a lot! You are fortunate.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609117
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 01:44:33 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609117“idiot” “ignorant” “paranoid” “angry” “narrowminded” – pleasure to share the thread with you, chrispy t!
]]>By: chrispytahoehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609112
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 01:31:36 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609112Paddy O’furniture: not a bay area refuge. Only been in Eldorado since 88. Grew up on a farm in New England. I have harvested more firewood in ElDo National Forest than you can imagine. I have seen the US forest service and private companies (that shall remain anonymous)destroy and clear cut sensitive areas. I also mine gold. I have witnessed the unnecessary moratorium put on dredging to protect the fish stocks. That’s total BS.

And it is all relative no? You look down on the bay residents with a certain level of disdain it appears, we here in Tahoe look down and foothills meth trash in a similar way. And they look at us up here as ‘frozen heads’.

]]>By: chrispytahoehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609110
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 01:21:23 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609110Richard, in responce to your comments…Mine is an Army family. We are being deployed next year to either the African Congo or the Middle East. Me and mine have been to our nations capitol several times. Me and mine have made sacrafices for our country sir. America the Beautifull is MY national anthem sir. I am a gun toting environmentalist! I bet that scares the crap out of some of you. I am thankfull and hopefull that the next generation of Americans is not paranoid and angry and narrowminded as what is on display in this thread.
]]>By: Martinhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609096
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 01:06:26 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609096Richard you are the reason that this state is in the state of despair that it is in, if you think for a moment that the EPA is here for the protection of the environment you truly delinquent in smarts. They have one purpose and one purpose only and that is to guarantee their livelihood. They used to do common since type environmental protection but when it became apparent that they would have to start downsizing their organization the felt the need to impede and now they are a powerful independent organization that can and do anything they like. Our government has oversight committees for everything except for the things that they should be overseeing. They put blinders on as long as they can keep getting the backing of organization like Sierra Fund and it associations; EPA has overstepped its calling and we as a nation are paying the price.
]]>By: chrispytahoehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609078
Fri, 01 Feb 2013 00:39:44 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609078What a great thread! Everyone presumes to know everything about everyone! Problems like the environment polarize peoples opinions to the point that folks arrive in one of two camps. And that is pretty sad. Protection of the environment is far more complex than most people realize. It should not be a political issue, but it is. To some of your comments, I grew up on a farm. A big dairy operation with corn and hogs. My uncle was one smart SOB, and he could tell you a thing about what unsustainable farming did to his land.

Sorry Frances, I meant no disrespect. I have traveled to both France and Finland and I dig the culture there.

]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609043
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 23:02:36 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609043Anyone who needs a cure for insomnia and wants to see what government regulation looks like in a microscale needs to read this. This is in regards to an ADA amendment to the definition of the word “handle” as it is used by Tart Cherry growers in several northeastern and northwestern states. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/03/05/2012-5197/tart-cherries-grown-in-michigan-new-york-pennsylvania-oregon-utah-washington-and-wisconsin
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-609018
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:35:31 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-609018http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/31/new-england-fishermen-say-new-regulations-may-lead-to-collapse-industry/?test=latestnews
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-608918
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:11:37 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608918Richard, you and Rob are both correct about one thing. Ignorance is ALWAYS the majority. In your case you are so lacking that you can’t even manage to state your own views in your own words so you are left with repeating Rob’s talking points. Of course any views that you could possibly state would have been what someone else told you to believe. Just like Rob’s are. If you ever want to know what happen to prosperity and jobs in our country, look in a mirror. It was the work of useful idiots.
]]>By: Richardhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-2/#comment-608767
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:17:41 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608767Rob, if I may repeat your comment: Reading this letter and the comments, I am extremely grateful for a strong, organized environmental movement that keeps yahoos like these from doing whatever they please regardless of the damage they cause. I am also grateful that they are a tiny minority, no matter how many times they comment.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608649
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:07:14 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608649Now . . . a word on “sustainable” agriculture. ********** Sixty years ago, after World War II, we started industrializing U.S. farming operations through a mix of policy decisions and accidents of history. This method of farming is neither inevitable nor efficient. More to the point, it can’t be sustained. Industrial agriculture treats the farm as a factory, with “inputs” (pesticides, fertilizers) and “outputs” (crops). The end-objective is increasing yields while controlling costs — usually by exploiting economies of scale (i.e. making a lot of one thing, or “monocropping”), and by replacing solar energy and manual labor with machines and petro-chemicals like pesticides and fertilizers.

In relying on chemical “inputs,” we have un-learned how to farm.

This model of farming is inefficient and does not represent the cutting edge of modern farming. In 1940, we produced 2.3 food calories for every 1 fossil fuel calorie used. By industrializing our food and farming systems, we now get 1 food calorie for every 10 fossil fuel calories used — a 23-fold reduction in efficiency. – HERE

]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608632
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:42:24 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608632Cookie: Thank you for both of the above. I did not know the Omo Ranch history. Nor about present inhospitality of “old growth” forest. Solution: cut it all down and insert high density housing!
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608631
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:28:30 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608631The spotted owl DOES NOT live in the “old growth” forest. Nothing lives in the “old growth” forest because there is no food there. But they repeated it often enough for millions to accept it as fact. Reminds me of global warming.
]]>By: cookie65http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608630
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:21:26 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608630Cllea Crispy and Ron, out in the southern end of El Dorado county is a little place on the map called Omo Ranch. A couple of generations past there was a lumber mill there. Wetsel-Oviatt Lumber company. It was a community of several hundred people centered around the mill and the logging. They built the mill, the town, the roads, the homes, the post office, the school, the general store, a large mess hall, everything. They planted several trees for everyone they cut down why managing the forest in such a way as to prevent wild fires. They did no clear cutting, they didn’t destroy any precious eco-systems, they didn’t scar the planet. They raised thier families, provided for the needs of the community and required nothing from the government. Today if you were to drive thru there you would have no clue a lumber mill ever existed there or the town. The school, the post office and a few scattered houses are still there. They moved the mill to Latrobe many years ago and eventually sold it and @ 18,000 acres of forest land to SPI (sierra pacific industries). During there existance they provided jobs, prosperity, pensions, healthcare, stewardship of our resources, the lumber to build homes all over the state and who knows what else (use your limited imaginations). Two things had the greatest effect on their eventual closing. One was some flatlander set the mountain on fire cutting firewood many many years ago and the other was regulations that have been imposed on the lumber industry by people who have never set foot in the forest.
]]>By: Rod Kerrhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608490
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:45:28 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608490James, The Endangered Species Act (ESA) was not ill-conceived in the beginning, but misuse by land developers, greedy conservation interests and the EPA’s Orwellian reverse speak, has transformed ESA into the most misused, unjust and unconstitutional abrogation of our civil liberties in U.S. history.
Our fundamental right to own and use private property, any property they deem necessary, including legally deeded water has been taken by the EPA. Once your property is designated ‘habitat’ for some endangered species be it a plant, rat, butterfly or beast, you cannot use it. Hence you cannot sell it at market value, yet you are required to continue paying taxes on it. Current law provides for just compensation of ‘takings’ under Eminent Domain, but NOT with ESA.
Why? Because EPA’s gigantic overreach could not be funded. And our congressional leadership (?) in creating the EPA decided it was easier to just take your property…. than give you fair compensation. For you ‘envroligionists’ out there, MAKE NO MISTAKE, The incremental departure from our Constitution, from any agency… is your loss of freedom.
]]>By: Tom Gibneyhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608420
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:34:06 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608420Ah, Mr. Longhofer, I am sure we could rally over a glass of wine with, a few words back and forth. I am sure we would have a fine conversation, find some common ground and even a flirt with the third rail of politics.
]]>By: Tom Gibneyhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608418
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 06:33:38 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608418Ah, Mr. Longhofer, I am sure we could rally over a wine with, a few words back and forth. I am sure we would have a fine conversation, find some common ground and even a flirt with the third rail of politics.
]]>By: James E.http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608382
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:56:08 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608382Tom, I think you can hold a candle to me any day.
Mutual respect over the time we have spent on this
site.
]]>By: Tom Gibneyhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608366
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:24:07 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608366Cllea…I have done many a thing…I was born of a Liberal democrat writer. Grew up with a family of privilaged intellectuals. I have but a smattering of community college after high school. 6 years of Military service. I write, I shovel, I wrench. A printer for many a year. I reside here in Placerville faced with a touch of unemployment, save for some part time work from the county. I have had my own business as a landscaper in Santa Cruz.. only to be outbid by..lower bidding mexicans. (Crap I am a racist now I suppose..)
Spent time following the Greatful Dead in my youth ..homeless for a year even and then some. I have been on the wrong side of the law, the wrong side of the fence, and the wrong side of the tracks..by choice and by chance.
Albiet I am but 50, I recall a time not too long ago when we had accountability and common sense. NOw I see people like our “President” his cabinet his one sided agenda. I see local people like Karen Schambach who are driven to close the Rubicon Trail and the roads to El Dorado Forest using nefarious claims and junk science like the majority of Environmental parasitic useful idiots….I and many otheres actually go out and clean traisl and forests . While these Enviro Zealot organizations full of paper tigers with checkbooks do nothing but whine and marshel lawyers.
My credentials…may not be perfect for you…but I will confess,my conservative ideals come from being on the other side of the bars. I was raised in a fortunate family, I unike my siblings took a more ‘hands on path’ I may not be at the local senior shelter but I am part caregiver for my inlaws. I may not be a farmer, but I fortify those in need at random.
I have travelled this country from coast to coast. I have lived in New York,Japan, CT, Chicago and California. Well versed in firearms and crossbows and bows.
Cllea, you and the Richards and what other liberal idealist here I am sure have your visons of what America should be. However you might ask yourself…what have your ideals let it become??? Read of Kruschev or Mao or Hitlers Mein Kampf. I have Maos little red book and Mein Kampf. I have Sun Tsus Art of War.. What does it all mean…? It means that I like many others who have conservative ideals probably are more well versed on the idiocy of your ideals than you think….just saying…whew! glad we got that out there I feel so much better now…However I am sure I cannot hold a candle to the grand Col Longhofer…..
]]>By: Paddy O'furniturehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608363
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:16:10 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608363cllea, there you go getting snarky again. I suppose it’s okay, we all get that way now and again. I haven’t been in the co-op in a while buy my daughter is a “shareholder” or whatever it is they call it, having worked there for a while (no longer). I’d like to go in more often. My wife and some friends do though. I appreciate your narrative of your upbringing and past. It’s funny; how you can have so much in common with folks and yet be on opposite sides of various issues. I’m not much of a peacemaker (I can be quite cantankerous and even antagonistic when I’m in the mood) but I firmly believe that there are many of us who, if we could drop our labels and affiliations for one hour over a cup of coffee, we’d find that when it comes to how we think in our guts and what we love and believe in, we have more in common than not. Liberal vs conservative, democrat vs republican, right vs left, all labels, some meaning little. I was raised in a staunch union democrat home. My dad thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist (doooooon’t say it). I would have voted for Carter were I old enough. When I left home and started paying my own way, bills, and taxes, and started making my own decisions, I realized what I believed didn’t line up with the average democrat. I became a republican. Now, during the last decade or so, I realized what I believe doesn’t seem all that republican either. I’m a libertarian in heart, spirit and mind. I don’t hardly fit in anywhere in the major groups. Yet, when I talk to folks from all around, I have at least something in common with most everybody. Not everything mind you, (some folks can’t be reasoned with or are just plain stupid ;^) but enough to surprise me. I could probably even enjoy a cup of coffee with Colonel Longhofer. Richard and Garon…not sure about. ;^) Time for bed. 3:00AM comes mighty early.
]]>By: francescaduchamp@att.nethttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608358
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:03:52 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608358Susie O. I was there at that meeting…and it is exactly what they used. I invite you as well to our town meeting Feb.25th @ 6:00 The best part–is the people that I invited knew as well. I have nothing against Mr. Ward–and felt for him that they forgot to tell him that the name on the building is the Pollock Pines Camino Center–right after he had told the Camino guests to just watch. You are welcome to look him up–he is a sales person…using a sales pitch. His job is to move the crowd towards a point of sale. In this instance–he was selling an idea. No conspiracy theories. Its a way to sell. I have a degree in advertising/graphic design…I know when a crowd is being sold on an idea. I trained to sell a product or an idea. lolololol I know what was said to me…and how my answers were “calmly” moved. I know how others felt and saw it to…some key people are losing credibility because of this style of selling. Its a shame–they may have started out with good ideas…but they got power hungry and stomped on toes. Happens.
]]>By: clleahttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608342
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:00:46 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608342Evelyn, I did not think your 4:39 was humorous, but most of them I do. I have to have my humor. When I do lose my humor I become mean and snarly like the to the right of the Tea Party, Cookie followers.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608338
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 03:44:27 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608338BTW: Of course facilitators are not told to manipulate people. The technique itself does the job for them. Many facilitators are themselves not knowledgeable about the origins and intent of Delphi. Investigate for yourself it’s development by the Rand Corporation.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608336
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 03:38:54 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608336Susie O: You’re the only one on this page using the Conspiracy word. Perhaps you could share with us information about specific situations in which you used the Delphi Technique, what the participants understood about it, and which citizen/employment groups they represented.
]]>By: Susie O.http://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608330
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 03:23:12 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608330Oh, the conspiracy theories abound!!! Agenda 21! The Delphi Technique! The sky is falling!

Having worked in government and private firms that use this technique, I was never told to manipulate people, nor did we ever use the information to manipulate people. In fact, information that people gave us at scoping meetings and hearings and visioning processes actually were used in trying to figure out some processes, and ended up in better projects for both the public and the environment.

It’s NOT a conspiracy, but I realize what county we’re in…

]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608314
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 03:13:05 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608314cllea: I await your response to my query to you regarding my 4:39 pm comment. Having admitted to being made a kinder person it’s surprising that you found my story “humorous”, what with your farming ties and all.
]]>By: clleahttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608312
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 03:05:58 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608312Mr. Furniture, thank you for not being mean. And, I hope you have checked out the Pville Food Coop.–citizen owned and operated and really supports our local farmers. Mr. Gibney, I am 62 years old and have been a psychiatric nurse for 18 years. I give a great deal in my profession, and have seen what governments can do. I give to the homeless, clothes, blankets, toiletries, shoes, whatever I can collect –sometimes you may see me in the parking lot near Dollar Tree unloading my truck. I am a volunteer for a section of the Senior Center whereby nurses go into the homes of the elderly and/or disabled who call for help, and access and help where I can. I was born and grew up on a 40 acre farm in Iowa. From age 7, up at 4:00am to work, then to school, home and more work, at times missing long stretches of school to help my mom, uncle, and grandpa with the chores until I left for college (full scholarship, no government money). My family still farms, although it has been tough the last few years. I have always had a fruit/vege/flower garden and it does sustain me. I am a gun and rifle owner who is very adept at handling both, as are my sons, and I pledge allegiance to our flag. Mr. Gibney, oh say can you see? I have been recycling for over 20 years and am more of an environmentalist than not. I can see and appreciate both sides on many issues. Mr. Gibney, I know of and have experienced many struggles and I am stronger for it. I am also kinder because of it. What about you Mr. Gibney, I am listening.
]]>By: Tom Gibneyhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608281
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:32:05 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608281And what of you Cllea..? what do you do? Do you look out for your fellow Americans? DO you know of hard work and nurturing the land? Do you know of people who have families, who are even gun owners, who do plumbing and construction and want to keep their land and money from the Govt. and environmentalists? What do you know of struggle by actual Americans who take their hat off during the Star Spangled Banner and even give to the homeless..What do you and CHrispy know of anything aside from what you read on the Internet…???
]]>By: Tom Gibneyhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608280
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:26:37 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608280Yes…what do you do Chrispy? What is your contribution to society and the environment? Since you are no doubt spending time online looking up things and parroting them(Some sources rather vague but fitting for your mental capacity..) Persoally I haven;t made great strides But I have earned my keep , have calouses on my hands and use common sense(something lacking in the elitist Liberal crowd..or those who say they are “middle of the road”…) Personally I have spent time and money trying to battle environmental zealots like the Sierra club or Center for Bio Diversity or the Sierra Conservation Center. All Tunnel visioned Zealots who think the wilds should be viewed from a distance.
I hike, 4 wheel, mountain Bike (Still at age 50..still biking) and spend time cleaning up trails and educating people about leaving no trace. What do you do Chrispy? Have you got calouses on your hands? or are they soft and unscarred.. like you mind?
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608279
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:25:33 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608279cllea, please point to the humor in my 4:39 pm comment. And I’d be interested in your rational input.
]]>By: Paddy O'furniturehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608277
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:21:40 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608277Aaaw gee, cllea, I thought we were being civil now that we found some common ground in our mutual interest in local businesses. Now ya gotta go get all snarky again. Easy come, easy go I guess. ;(
]]>By: clleahttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608276
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:18:46 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608276Well, crispy, there ya have it. The High Priestess, Cookie and her band of of ingrates. I really do need another avenue for comic relief. They can really get much nastier if you try to approach their bubble too closely. Don’t respond because they have already started frothing and they become possessed and spew hateful ignorance. Find the humor!
]]>By: Paddy O'furniturehttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608270
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:10:44 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608270Crisped, what do you eat? What’s your house made of? My guess, you’re 100% dependent on farmers, ranchers and loggers, like the rest of America. Did you know that 2% of people in this country grow food for the other 98%? Do you grow anything you consume (pot doesn’t count)? When you’re independent of these types, then you can criticize. And it appears you know very little about forest management either. You from this area originally? My guess is no; another bay area refugee.
]]>By: Evelynhttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608263
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:47:18 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608263Parting shot, chrispy. I think you have an agenda. Would love to know something about your employment history. Care to share? Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps you’re just ignorant.
]]>By: francescaduchamp@att.nethttp://www.mtdemocrat.com/letters/the-environment-vs-freedom-and-wealth/comment-page-1/#comment-608262
Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:44:30 +0000http://www.mtdemocrat.com/?p=282083#comment-608262chrispytahoe…my grandparents were farmers. We have a mix of farmers, coal miners and loggers out of Minnesota. Others were ranchers from Texas. The french side…artists. The Finnish side-farmers. Making fun of my name is very grown-up, Im sure you will impress someone with your knowledge some day.
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