I’m not amazed at all. Nor am I amazed that ‘insiders’ have such a poor grasp of the general direction of public opinion. If you want to know what’s going on in the country, the inhabitants of the Westminster Aquarium are the last people to ask. (‘Westminster Bubble’ is too kind. They peer out, goggling at puzzled, at the real cold world from their warm, dim depths, they are regularly and generously fed from above by a mysterious hand which they rely on but never question, and they fly about in shoals, dashing this way and that, bereft of any individuality). They are, a strange and increasingly interchangeable collection of outwardly variegated professional politicians, some MPs, some ‘Special Advisers’ or ‘SPADS’ (spin doctors to you), some supposed journalists.

One of those, I noticed, in a recent Radio 4 ‘What the Papers Say’, approvingly quoted an article praising Michael Gove for being (as in fact he isn’t) the ‘First Tory Education Secretary to send a child to a state secondary’, without deigning to notice any dissent (full disclosure: most of the dissent came from me) from this spin, or to note the fact that the state secondary involved is a hard-to-get-into elite school.

Nor was there any criticism of Mr Gove’s decision to bypass his local comprehensive, even though he has repeatedly praised it and its head, in favour of an elite school miles from his home, during Education Questions in the Commons on Monday. Don’t they know how remote they are from real life? No. Are they all doing the same, or trying to? Don't know.

And that’s why the Farage-Clegg debate was so significant in itself, even if the actual exchanges were (to any informed person) pretty dull and routine.

I sat through the whole thing on Sky News. I’m afraid I didn’t think Nick Ferrari, whom I like, really got a grip on the two combatants. It seemed to me that Mr Clegg was called to answer first on almost every question, especially towards the end. And at several moments at which Mr Farage was clearly entitled to a comeback, after some dubious claims by Mr Clegg, we moved on briskly to the next question.

I know that genuine questions from a genuine audience are a problem, as they seldom ask what TV producers want them to ask, in the way they want it asked, but I was a bit mystified about some of those that were selected. Most absurd was a question which appeared to be about same sex marriage and human rights, neither of which have anything to do with the EU itself. I know there’s now a complex new relationship between the Strasbourg Human Rights Court and the EU, but basically Strasbourg is a Council of Europe body, and ‘Human Rights’, though they remain nonsense on stilts, cannot really be blamed on the EU. (The Equality Directives, on the other hand, can be).

Also, I thought the question in which Mr Farage was asked about paying his wife, and Mr Clegg about his broken promise on Tuition Fees, was out of place in this debate. In a general election, perhaps it would have worked. But in Britain’s first proper televised debate about the EU between major figures for nearly 40 years, it was a waste of time.

I also wanted to know more about Mr Clegg’s contention that, according to the House of Commons Library, only a very small percentage of British legislation originated in the EU. I really wanted to see the workings. If this is true, then it very much changes the debate.

Mr Farage was all right, though he never rose above that. I was disappointed that he did not try harder at the end to counter the idea that those who oppose British absorption in a foreign empire are somehow ‘Little Englanders’ . I have never understood why any intelligent person uses, or accepts, this empty jibe, which bears no relation to any truth at all. Why is a country made ‘little’ by being independent? How does independence alter its size? Whereas handing over your frontier, your foreign negotiating rights and increasing amounts of your domestic law to a supranational power surely *do* diminish you.

But the main thing was that the event took place at all. For years, establishment thought has derided the idea that there is a large and unhappy group of voters who feel betrayed and ignored and misunderstood by an out-of-touch establishment. Mr Farage, for all his many faults, as shown definitively that such a group exists, and Mr Clegg, by agreeing to debate with him on a public platform, has acknowledged that it is so.

Let us hope that Mr Farage will be cleverer than Pauline Hanson in Australia, or Preston Manning in Canada, who led similar revolts and were in the end either absorbed or crushed or both by the establishment. With a bit of luck, our establishment will turn out to be as stupid as it looks, and not appreciate the danger until it is too late. The shock of the ‘insiders’ at Mr Farage’s poll victory suggests that may be so. They still don’t know what has hit them, or grasp how much they are despised.

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@Mrs.B. | 02 April 2014 at 10:09 AM

"Very true.. but taking off again..to be honest it's never gone.. down in ordinary communities."

Yes, probably so. What I'm seeing is English yeomanry, as it were, taking no more of it and rebelling against the too-clever-by-half caste of Bobos who've dominated, indeed comprised, the political nobility for the past three decades. This is the so-called political class.

Farage is not a politician. Clegg is a politician, and alongside Farage that fact is all the more exaggerated. Clegg is a stereotypical representative of the Bobo politician. Farage is an English yeoman - not a smart aleck by any means, not an ideologised proletarian either, but a middle-ground pragmatist who knows what's what out and about in the shires.

Paul P.
Very true.. but taking off again..to be honest it's never gone.. down in ordinary communities. It's just that with the internet their voices are being heard.
For too long the liberal dominated media have told us what they think we should have or how we should think, how life should be portrayed in soaps, influencing our young generation... but ordinary people with ordinary families and ordinary lives, who still retain the same old values are now really fed up.
Of course the journalists were taken aback by Nigel Farage's support after the debate, they've lived in the bubble too long.
Some journalists are a bit like politicians, they live in the bubble all week and then reside in lovely quaint old villages, if only we could afford too!!
It does keep them away from the reality of life down in communities though, When they follow the politicians, they see the bits of towns that the local councillors want them to see.
When news is reported on 24 hour news stations, it is then given a .B.B.C slant on the main 6 o'clock slot I have observed very many times.

I watched the short bio of Nigel Farage on CH4 4 yesterday, and it was quite enlightening. Not especially about the EU and its other-worldly detachment from the lives of real people, but about the appeal of Farage himself and Ukip generally.

Ukip are attracting support from all over the political spectrum, and also from those people previously not in any spectrum at all. As Farage went in and out of pubs and chatted with anyone and everyone in his affable way, pint in hand, it all at once occurred to me that the Age of the Bobo is coming to an end. That's what has happened.

During the last several decades the main political parties have fused around Bobo culture, a sort of amalgam of lefty thought processes and capitalist enterprise. The lefty-ism is a legacy of the revolutionary excitements of the 60s and 70s while the me-focussing of the 80s turned the quasi-hippies into middle-class but nevertheless 'concerned' ideologue-capitalists - a very curious if fascinating mixture indeed. The Bobos are now seen as a caste at the top in politics, a caste of intellectualised socio-entrepreneurs in a world of their own, which world the rest of the country is reacting against. The voice of their reaction is the un-intellectual Farage and the un-intellectual Ukip.

Bobo-ism, then, looks to be coming to an end and grass-roots pragmatism, that sea of down-home ordinary-ness at large in most of the un-metropolitan country, the repository of most of the non-approved opinions you never hear on the BBC, taking off again.

One thing missing from all of this is this . UKIP was set up as a one issue party . That of exiting from the EU. Its had representatives in that institution for a very long time now . As these politicos gang up into blocs for extra funding. They have chosen to be attached to an group that doesn't wish to separate. The only group wishing to break up the EU they refused to join.
So do they really now represent what they have written on the tin .Or more important is the funding they receive from our taxes more important.

Ah yes Pauline Hanson .
Described rather nastily as that *fish shop lady *. As the proprietor of a fish and chip shop. What I find quite amusing in that is most all of her detractors had never run any sort of business. Here in Britain a thing beyond the entire population of our Parliament ,
Still she lost, ran out of steam .In fact you could put us right .What was it that stopped here in her tracks The fact she was a Pom. hurt her to some extent ,and was used by those nasty racists who deny they ever are, against her.
Unfortunately Farage although engaging, does tend to say things that at a later date he might have wished he didn't . Whether that now acceptable from a voter that is tired of those oh so politically correct puppets spouting their so well prepared non answers .We'll just have to wait and see.

PH makes the point that the hacks and Westminster faithful were painfully unaware of the divide between real opinion and percieved wisdom as to how to approach and engage with people.

What is clear to me, and it seems those that did engage with the debate from normal life, is that Farage has appeal beyond normal, classical opinion and dogma. This is not because of how he speaks, or how he looks, but because you can see the real passion in his opinions and you can guage why they exist.

Truly enlightening, it gladdens my heart that we still believe in honest held opinion more than spin and PR pleasing sentiment. Perhaps Anthony Blair has not ruined this country as much as i have believed, if the general public can still see beyond the political class when given an option to do so.

I think Nick Ferrari is the best DJ on LBC miles ahead of O'Brien who can barely keep civil when it comes to UKIP always referring to Farage as Farige as a form of insult, yet when he spoke to him on the radio last week I noticed he called him Farage, just a childish leftie I guess.
Ferrari let Clegg speak far more than Farage and Clegg was quite rude in interrupting. It wasn't a good performance by Ferrari despite media adulation.
I was never told by Clegg which three million jobs will be lost upon exit from the political union with the EU that he refers to regularly. Certainly no one in my wide range of contacts has told me they are worried for their jobs. Farage should have challenged him, he should as you say have refuted the 'pull up the draw bridge etc' snipe as well which Clegg mentioned a few times, indeed he was actually quite repetitive about many things, and certainly he was uncomfortable at the beginning.
I also wasn't told by Clegg how he worked out the NHS would collapse without immigration, again another myth Farage should have challenged.
Clegg also stated that if we left we would have to re negotiate with all of the EU countries....negotiate for what, business? Surely that is simply business conducted between various companies and nothing to do with the need for the EU unless I miss something here.
The vote was a joy for me to behold as I have always said as many here have, that Joe public is more aware of their surroundings and certainly care more than the Westminster elitist bubble.
The look on Boultons face when he recited what Farage said about the EU having blood on it's hands was also entertaining.
I note some journo has suggested that the vote was the way it was because it was a snap poll therefore it was a 'populist' vote whatever that means ( I suspect anything non PC ) so they still live in denial.
My verdict, Farage did well against the clearly well polished and trained Clegg and edged it in an environment that was favourable to Clegg. I seem to be in a majority of 57% I can live with that, even though apparently I must be a 'populist'!

Clegg has very close personal familial links to other nations/cultures .On his father's side he is related to Kira von Engelhardt, daughter of a Russian baron ofGerman, Polish and Ukrainian origin, to Ignaty Zakrevsky, an attorney-general of the Imperial Russian senate ; his mother is Dutch and his wife is Spanish.

According to Wikipedia :

"His background has informed his politics. He says, "There is simply not a shred of racism in me, as a person whose whole family is formed by flight from persecution, from different people in different generations. It's what I am. It's one of the reasons I am a liberal." His Dutch mother instilled in him "a degree of scepticism about the entrenched class configurations in British society"

Understanding as we should that homo sapiens are largely motivated by instincts for survival and self-interest, it should come as no surprise that his outlook is hardly the essence of traditional British patriotism, and that given his mixed-up "Mittel European" background, he is so ardent about the concept of "the good European". He has an angle, an axe to grind, if I may be so bold.

His background/pedigree is as far from that of the ordinary British man or woman as it's possible to be - privileged (he attended Westminster public school), European, metropolitan. But then, what else would you expect from a Liberal who genuinely cares about the people( and equality dictat emanating from Mittel Europe)?

I think Nigel Farage was too polite to Nick Clegg. And he really shouldn’t let those repeated ‘little Englander’ or ‘pulling up the draw-bridge’ jibes/smeers from Clegg go unchallenged. Although highlighting Cleggs evasive answers was good stuff. Farage has an unfortunate habit of performing a startled ‘jumping’ motion and of positioning his forearms and hands as though they were on strings. I’ve noticed him doing this before on BBC QT, whist in a sitting position, but when standing - such quirky behaviour looks rather odd. I only mention this as presentationally it doesn’t work and particularly so for those people who are just looking for reasons to condemn Farage as fruit-cake loopy - it plays into their hands..... I won’t critique Clegg, as I wouldn't want him to alter any of his ‘vote-losing' debating behaviour ahead of next week’s BBC debate.

As a small business owner, I would like to see Nigel explain more deeply to the audience how the EU has lost the UK many jobs . The glaringly obvious EU corporatism has hit so many small companies they are either restricted in growth or have been managed out completely. I notice that when I mention this on other sites the comment is deleted. Mr Clegg is scaremongering the public about job losses whilst forgetting that the ECB paid Ford to move production to Turkey?!

I pretty much agree with Mr Hitchen's thoughts. I've watched Nigel Farage quite a bit on youtube recently and as good as he was yesterday I don't think he was firing on all cylinders and definitely could have rebuttalled Nick Clegg more convincingly.

For example, with the Poster and small print talk about the referendum he could really have drove the point home about politicians saying something while meaning something entirely different, and about the 1.5 million brits in europe spread out over the whole 27 countries compared to the size of the uk and its immigrant intake. And I agree his views on same sex marriage was a wasted question, and personally I think it was in there to try to throw a spanner in the works to Farage's and Ukips credibility than about the issue of in or out.

I have no doubt also that the BBC debate will throw off the cuff questions like this in next debate which in my opinion no doubt will do all it can to try to demonize the opinions of eurosceptics, but I'm sure Ukip will better prepared after yesterdays showing.

With a bit of luck, our establishment will turn out to be as stupid as it looks, and not appreciate the danger until it is too late. The shock of the ‘insiders’ at Mr Farage’s poll victory suggests that may be so."

The stupidity is borne out of the unshakable false belief that all knowledge and wisdom is concentrated in people such as themselves - which makes it difficult for them to understand and accept that people do arrive at different conclusions.on many different subjects. It's obvious to anyone with a wide empirical outlook, that these folk inhabit a closed and dogmatic echo chamber of self-importance. In short, they're ignorant - but too self absorbed to see it.

The aftermath enquiry (with Kay Burley) was something to behold, with almost all the "pundits" flying in the face of the result - and one giggling/sneering "journalist" from the Independent gave such a bizarre analysis, it would have left those well versed in the art of postmodern gobbledegook scratching their heads.

As for the irrelevant question on same-sex marriage ; isn't this just an example of the obligatory "Stalingrad" tactic ?

In my view Farage did ok, and I was delighted he referenced the EU's role in Ukraine debacle, but I wish he'd re-enforced it with Cameron's "Atlantic to the Urals" statement. Clegg just reeled off a load of Armageddon style platitudes.as expected. Tedious man.

But, can you imagine what it would be like having the other two involved -having to invent a host of phoney differences ? I suspect they put Clegg up for this job hoping to blunt the independence case, (and save his bacon) , whilst concealing their virtually identical positions on the EU..

Yep, they're despicable - and I look forward to the day they receive their comeuppance.

Suddenly, the mainstream political machine and the pro-EU media like the BBC have discovered that UKIP is not a one man band supported by late middle age retired army officers spending much of their leisure time propping up the bar of their local golf club clutching a mug of English bitter. UKIP is garnering support from a broad range of voters with a wide variety of political backgrounds and incomes.
It has developed into a solid bedrock that would become a disenfranchised constituency if the established Parties realised their dream and UKIP failed ; those supporters are breaking the political mould but how much will be revealed by the MEP Elections in May.

Personally I was quite heartened by Farage's performance and I think he was streets ahead of 'Clegg Beatle' (as Clegg is known in my household), who was incredibly patronising (why do we praise politicians getting people's names right?) and worse still, evasive and hopelessly run of the mill. Farage, on the other hand, seems to believe what he said and came across well.

One of the most revealing parts of the debate was when Clegg was challenged with a leaflet, in which he had promised a referendum, and his defence was "Read the small print." This just goes to show how sincere our mainstream politicians are, which is, incidentally, not at all. If anyone was in any doubt, they really shouldn't be now, given he just declared it in a public debate...

Nick Clegg's jibe about "Little England" was interesting. Does anyone think that the Scots would give serious consideration to independence were it not for the EU ?

Thanks to the EU, we could well become "Little England (and Wales)" if Mr Salmond can pull something from his hat. I have no problem with living in "Little England (and Wales)"... but I do have a problem with the snide superiority of people like Clegg, who... from a position of total bias and total ignorance... assumes that the knows enough to not only make decisions for the British people... but is also entitled to deny them any say in the matter.

How much of our legislative burden comes from Brussells ??? I don't know and I don't really care. EU Commissioner Vivian Reding didn't seem to have any doubts. She asserted that it was 70% and that we were "too ignorant" to be trusted with a say in our own destiny.

The real point is this... that we are now "locked in" to sharing the self inflicted destinies of countries which have seriously problematic histories... and even stranger contemporary tendencies. We may like them lots... we might enjoy visiting them for holidays... and we certainly enjoy their cuisine, their various alcohols and their cultures...

... but do we really want to follow their paper tanks into the east ???

Ukraine is timely warning. Heed it not and we're all on a sleigh ride to Hell.

I too would be interested to hear more about the figure that Mr Clegg quoted from the HoC library regarding the number of UK laws that are decided by the EU. I think he said it was seven percent. I daresay that if the Deputy Prime Minister's office requested this information, the officials in the library gave a truthful answer that they knew the DPM wanted. Mr Clegg should therefore elaborate on the answer, with any caveats attached, and define the scope of the laws in question. How much influence, if any, does the EU have on the remaining ninety three percent? What about the laws that the UK wants to enact (or in some cases enforce), but so often cannot because the EU won't allow it. How much UK derived legislation is offered to Brussels for approval when its drafted (or even before that)? It's not as simple as Mr Clegg would like us to think. The EU is entwined throughout every crevice of UK government. I actually think that the ruling elite are quite comfortable with this because it absolves them from any responsibility. I want the UK to return to being an independent nation but the sad reality is that we don't seem to have any politicians (regardless of political persuasion) that would be up to the job. They have all been promoted beyond their ability because of their support of the EU and are hardly likely to want to let go of the apron strings. Most are now too young to remember the UK outside the "Common Market". Messrs Clegg, Cameron and Miliband simply wouldn't want the job of being PM of an independent UK. It has no attraction for them, they have no experience of such a position, they would be out of their depth and it would be far too much responsibility. Better for them to jog along in the EU club. It's what they know and what they have been trained for. Everything they have ever learned about the workings of government has been in the context of the UK being part of the EU.

I thought Nigel Farage came across as a fairly straight shooter while Nick Clegg was the stereotypical double-speaking politician - all double-spoken evasion caked in sincerity. "What have benefits got to do with it?", protested Farage at one point, "I never mentioned benefits." Well nothing of course. It was a double-speaking insertion on the part of Clegg.

This presents an irony of a problem. The non double-speaker will never become prime minister at the head of a major political party. That is a given. Expedient fictions and truth-is-lies-and-lies-is-truth are the tools of successful power achievers, and Farage doesn't measure up in my opinion.

The morphing of British democracy into the status of mantelpiece ornament ought to be the centrepiece of the debate in my opinion. Clegg and the EU devotees speak of being 'in' Europe as 'best for Britain'. What does this mean? Does it just mean BMWs coming this way and whatever it is we still make (struggling here a bit) going that way? There is never any addressing of the fact that ultimate 'in'-ness in Europe will mean the electing of British constituency MPs becoming a pointless exercise. All they will be empowered to do will be to rubber-stamp EU directives.

It seems to me that the English freedom vaunted, envied, and copied where it can be all over the world, is set to evaporate without further notice in the country of its inception, its supporters and advocates labelled cranks, misfits and anachronistic "Little Englanders' by the double-speaking Cleggs and their ilk.

I think that we should hear a lot more about people from other EU countries who are anti European union.The pro EU media portray people who are against this union as little Englanders but the EU is not supported by masses of people all over the continent,why do we never seem to hear this.The globalist media just like to portray anti Europeans as a small bunch of eccentric little Englanders but this is just not the case,its deeply unpopular everywhere,but the media don't want people to hear this,just like they don't want people hearing about the far right gaining support in countries like France,Holland,Greece and Cyprus.

Unfortunately the 2015 Election will not be about either of the two greatest issues confronting England and its very existence . These being: 1 a scale of mass immigration which will soon see the English a minority 2 its merger into a single European Superstate The USE as Cameron calls in when interviewed in the European press.
The election will be about what President Clinton cynically said "its the economy,Stupid," It will be how many people feel financially worse off regardless of the Smoke and Mirrors trick of economic recovery against those who think they are better off due to house price inflation meaning there house is worth much more.
In France the ant-mass immigration & anti EU FN of Marie Le Pen is gaining ground but France has proportional representation. There is no chance of Cameron ever cutting a deal with UKIP his pretend promise of an in /out referendum while never happen,
Also the UKIP has the entire liberal elite Establishment of England against them such as the BBC. Back in 2002 Lord Tebbit claimed that known agents of M16 had infiltrated the UKIP. There was a more recent article on this you can find google in The Spectator . So if MI6 consider UKIP subversive of UK economic interests as the perceive it will they seek to subvert it from within maybe just uncover or fabricate damaging information to undermine UKIP just before the next election.

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