I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

Not necessarily. It just means that infallibility works in mysterious ways.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.

(note, i dont believe this, but this is the argument)

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.

Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.

Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

Who is "everyone"?

P.S. It's a tad odd that your examples only go back to the 19th century.

Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

Who is "everyone"?

P.S. It's a tad odd that your examples only go back to the 19th century.

Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

Who is "everyone"?

P.S. It's a tad odd that your examples only go back to the 19th century.

Vatican I was in the 19th century after all.

Yes, and the declaration of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy at the final council of Vatican I was greeted by heavenly lightning as was Pope Benedict XVI's resignation.

For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 10:41:01 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval

Silliness. It was just another lightning strike. Lightning hits the Vatican all the time. It has a huge lightning rod on top of it.

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval

Silliness. It was just another lightning strike. Lightning hits the Vatican all the time. It has a huge lightning rod on top of it.

For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval

Silliness. It was just another lightning strike. Lightning hits the Vatican all the time. It has a huge lightning rod on top of it.

I've seen and heard more non-Catholics make a big deal out of that lighting strike than Catholics themselves.

Just an observation ... the resignation of Pope Benedict has elicited more discussion on this forum - and has resulted in more generally positive remarks about the man and his tenure - than on any of the Catholic fora which I've perused. I have to say that such gives a lot of credence to the positive remarks I've made about the underlying ethos of the Orthodox community here over the years.

Many years,

Neil

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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Just an observation ... the resignation of Pope Benedict has elicited more discussion on this forum - and has resulted in more generally positive remarks about the man and his tenure - than on any of the Catholic fora which I've perused. I have to say that such gives a lot of credence to the positive remarks I've made about the underlying ethos of the Orthodox community here over the years.

Many years,

Neil

Even between RCs and ECs, ECs tend to love the Pope more even though many would deny his universal ordinary jurisdiction and infallibility.

At the close of the year people talked much about prodigies, presaging impending evils. Never were lightning flashes more frequent, and a comet too appeared [Chelyabinsk meteor, anyone?], for which Nero always made propitiation with noble blood. Human and other births with two heads were exposed to public view, or were discovered in those sacrifices in which it is usual to immolate victims in a pregnant condition. And in the district of Placentia, close to the road, a calf was born with its head attached to its leg. Then followed an explanation of the diviners, that another head was preparing for the world, which however would be neither mighty nor hidden, as its growth had been checked in the womb, and it had been born by the wayside.

All proclamations made by the pope are infallible when he makes them, and all of the modifications he makes to his proclamations are also infallible. In other words, all things go.

Consider this, if the pope was installed in his position by the Holy Spirit, he is installed as the Bishop of Rome. Even if he is unable to continue in his role, he remains Pope, because it is the action if the Holy Spirit. Once a living pope is superseded by a second pope, so to speak, then there are two popes in Rome. That means two popes can be infallible at the same time. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?

All proclamations made by the pope are infallible when he makes them, and all of the modifications he makes to his proclamations are also infallible. In other words, all things go.

Consider this, if the pope was installed in his position by the Holy Spirit, he is installed as the Bishop of Rome. Even if he is unable to continue in his role, he remains Pope, because it is the action if the Holy Spirit. Once a living pope is superseded by a second pope, so to speak, then there are two popes in Rome. That means two popes can be infallible at the same time. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?

Not really. The Papacy is an office, so if a man vacates that office he doesn't bring infallibility with him.

Bishop Thomas John Paprocki [STL, JD, JCD] of Springfield in Illinois sent around the following canonical analysis on what to call Pope Benedict when he leaves office on February 28th:

"How then are we to understand the word “Pope?” It is an honorific, even a term of endearment (“Papa” in Italian). It is not the title of an ecclesiastical office. We make this distinction all the time. We still call a priest by the honorific “Father” even after he has resigned from the office of Pastor. Having lived in Italy for three and a half years when I was studying canon law, and having a sense of the culture, I have a feeling the Italians will continue to call Pope Benedict Papa Benedetto even after he leaves office as the Bishop of Rome. So I don’t think people will have a hard time wrapping their minds around having a Pope who is no longer the Roman Pontiff, Bishop of Rome, etc. Certainly, in direct address, one would never address him as anything but, “Your Holiness.”"

« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 09:04:05 PM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Bishop Thomas John Paprocki [STL, JD, JCD] of Springfield in Illinois sent around the following canonical analysis on what to call Pope Benedict when he leaves office on February 28th:

"How then are we to understand the word “Pope?” It is an honorific, even a term of endearment (“Papa” in Italian). It is not the title of an ecclesiastical office. We make this distinction all the time. We still call a priest by the honorific “Father” even after he has resigned from the office of Pastor. Having lived in Italy for three and a half years when I was studying canon law, and having a sense of the culture, I have a feeling the Italians will continue to call Pope Benedict Papa Benedetto even after he leaves office as the Bishop of Rome. So I don’t think people will have a hard time wrapping their minds around having a Pope who is no longer the Roman Pontiff, Bishop of Rome, etc. Certainly, in direct address, one would never address him as anything but, “Your Holiness.”"

His Beatitude +Lubomyr is still addressed "His Beatitude" even after resigning as Patriarch of the UGCC.

I don't what good that could possibly do, except perhaps hasten the absorption of the eastern Catholics into the Latin rite church (a process that proceeds at a furious pace in some parts of the world). That might be a positive to some people depending on one's perspective.

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"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living" Jaroslav Pelikan

I admire your hopefulness, Choy, but I don't think RC ecclesiology is set up for the possibilities you entertain (re: "orthodox" ECCs somehow reforming or changing Rome; I just don't see how it's possible when they are Rome's tributaries in the first place).

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I admire your hopefulness, Choy, but I don't think RC ecclesiology is set up for the possibilities you entertain (re: "orthodox" ECCs somehow reforming or changing Rome; I just don't see how it's possible when they are Rome's tributaries in the first place).

It won't happen through ecclesiology but through the faithfulness of the people to their tradition and faith. RCs won't convert to Orthodoxy because they won't separate from the Pope. But if ECs are "orthodox", they will be attracted to it. We've already have a number of "V2 refugees" in EC parishes. The more Orthodox an EC parish is, the more it will attract the truly faithful.

I would have never converted straight from RC to Orthodoxy. ECs gave me that avenue to learn about Orthodoxy. And had my EC parish been more "orthodox", I may not even have left for Orthodoxy.

Not necessarily, but when you cannot openly teach against errors embraced and propagated by said infallible and universal bishop and/or his particular church, it does seem to create problems...and cognitive dissonance among those beneath said bishop in such a scheme who happen to know better.

Not necessarily, but when you cannot openly teach against errors embraced and propagated by said infallible and universal bishop and/or his particular church, it does seem to create problems...and cognitive dissonance among those beneath said bishop in such a scheme who happen to know better.

The fight wasn't for me, but there are those who recognize the problems but chose to persevere to remain in that communion in the hopes that they can bring about change. We should pray for such people and support them.

Not necessarily, but when you cannot openly teach against errors embraced and propagated by said infallible and universal bishop and/or his particular church, it does seem to create problems...and cognitive dissonance among those beneath said bishop in such a scheme who happen to know better.

The fight wasn't for me, but there are those who recognize the problems but chose to persevere to remain in that communion in the hopes that they can bring about change. We should pray for such people and support them.

I don't what good that could possibly do, except perhaps hasten the absorption of the eastern Catholics into the Latin rite church (a process that proceeds at a furious pace in some parts of the world).

Michael, my brother and old friend,

Truer words were never spoken. Prayers that all is well with you.

Many years,

Neil

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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Or maybe the Eastern Pope will do away with the Roman Rite and just use the Byzantine Rite.

That was what I had in mind. Imagine, millions and millions of people thinking they're watching Christmas Pontifical Mass on TV and suddenly there's an iconostasis and the Pope appears in his omophorion and starts with "Blessed is the Kingdom...". It would be even better if it's in Greek