I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink". Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout.

I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink". Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout.

I didn't blame Francona for last year. The players behaved like they were in a country club. I was all over Beckett and Lackey for drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. That said, Francona is not totally blameless (as Valentine isn't totally blameless either). He had a role in the collapse. My main criticism of Tito was about his in-game tactics. That cost us games because the moves he made put the players in a WORSE position to win.

Best to let him finish the season rather then giving into the players.

Rarely does a replacement make a difference.

True, but the day after the season ends he should be fired. There is no need to repeat the debacle of last year's managerial search, one that got delayed far too long. The search should begin immediately and a new manager should be hired within a month or so. Ideally he should be someone who is not only a great in game tactician but someone who manages the media circus well. He should also be tactful when dealing with the players and good with the younger players-but strict. Should be interesting.

I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink". Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout.

I didn't blame Francona for last year. The players behaved like they were in a country club. I was all over Beckett and Lackey for drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. That said, Francona is not totally blameless (as Valentine isn't totally blameless either). He had a role in the collapse. My main criticism of Tito was about his in-game tactics. That cost us games because the moves he made put the players in a WORSE position to win.

I agree, I didn't blame Francona for the Sept collapse. I had been a detractor of Francona's managerial abilities from 2004 and on. He is a poor baseball tactition, always was and always will be.

I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine? Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine? Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition." I'll hold my breath...

I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine? Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition." I'll hold my breath...

I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine? Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition." I'll hold my breath...

Pick any game where he sent out the starting lineup........

Just as I thought. You're just another whiner who likes to moan and groan, yet has no idea why. I figured somone who whines about someone else as much as you do would be able to cite at least one example of an "in game tactical decision" that didn't make any sense. Clearly I was just as wrong as you are about Tito....

I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine? Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

I knew a paean to FrancoMa was coming from you sooner or later. Well that's fine; I always knew you were a died in the wool Franconian so there is no problem with that. The problem is that FrancoMa should have been canned long before he was. True, he won two WS and that will be his legacy, a good one, but most of us know that he left much to be desired in the dugout. He was a players manager and good in the clubhouse and he kept the pressure off of the players. However, every year he seemed to cost us between 10-12 games a year with some of the most pathetic dugout managing known to man. He cost us the 2005, 2008, and 2009 AL East and certainly the '08 AL Title. He ran a stale station-to-station game, never hit and ran, never turned the runners loose, the extra base was an unknown quantity and he left pitchers in there way too long. Valentine is getting only one Bob; Tito got three more than he deserved in my opinion.

I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine? Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

I knew a paean to FrancoMa was coming from you sooner or later. Well that's fine; I always knew you were a died in the wool Franconian so there is no problem with that. The problem is that FrancoMa should have been canned long before he was. True, he won two WS and that will be his legacy, a good one, but most of us know that he left much to be desired in the dugout. He was a players manager and good in the clubhouse and he kept the pressure off of the players. However, every year he seemed to cost us between 10-12 games a year with some of the most pathetic dugout managing known to man. He cost us the 2005, 2008, and 2009 AL East and certainly the '08 AL Title. He ran a stale station-to-station game, never hit and ran, never turned the runners loose, the extra base was an unknown quantity and he left pitchers in there way too long. Valentine is getting only one Bob; Tito got three more than he deserved in my opinion.

And your boy Valentine?

"MY BOY VALENTINE" will most likely be fired at the end of this season, much of which he deserved because of his big mouth, his inabiity to turn down the heat and his incessant and sarcastic barbs towards some of his players. However, he never had much of a chance in the first place. He was saddled with coaches he didn't want, especially a pitching coach who was inept, he never had his back covered our the miserable GM we have, and who never went out and got him the pitching the team needed, whether that was only his fault or that of the owner for holding on to his purse. So "my boy" will be out of a job after this season.

As for "your boy FrancoMa", let me predict that now he will get another managing job and will fail miserably because he isn't a LaRussa, a Scoiscia, a Bosche, or a Maddon.

I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

4/17/2007

Down 2-1 at Toronto, Drew on 1st, 0 outs, Lugo up.

Tchandra wanted Lugo to bunt to play for a tie on the road. On a 3-2 count, Tito sent the runner. Lugo lined into a DP. There isn't any doubt that Tito's play is the norm for managers.

The fact that you and the Sawxheads don't understand that doesn't mean anything.

Do you recall the rest of that brilliant analytical post? I admit that I don't. If you can dig it up, great. What I do remember is that for the vast majority of the instances cited by TChandra, he was spot on. I am glad Tito is gone; I am glad Epstein is gone. And I will be glad when Cheringon, Lucchino, and Valentine are all gone so we can start rebuilding effectively.

Don't bother to dig it up: re-create it.

Up until August 1, the Red sox were 16-16 in 1-run games.

Your premise is that Tito was at fault for losing 15 of those 16 1-run games, unless you think he was costing them multiple runs. So you are basically saying that we should have been 31-1 in one-run games.

I remember that 'Tchandra' thread because my first year on the forum was 2007 and I spent much of the time arguing with the Francona bashers. As I recall a lot of 'Tchandra's' analysis was going back through game logs and finding instances like this:

Red Sox batter A singled.

Red Sox batter B hit into double play.

Red Sox batter C singled.

Red Sox batter D made an out.

From that, 'Tchandra' would conclude that Tito should have had Batter B bunt Batter A to second, which would have resulted in Batter C driving in a run, therefore Tito cost us a run, and if we lost that game by a run it meant Tito 'lost the game'. I think 'Tchandra' believed that every time the first batter got on first base you should bunt him over.

Of course he would completely disregard any instances where Batter B got a hit or a walk instead of bunting.

The whole thing was amusing. And 'Tchandra' disappeared when the Red Sox won the World Series that year.

Your premise is that Tito was at fault for losing 15 of those 16 1-run games, unless you think he was costing them multiple runs. So you are basically saying that we should have been 31-1 in one-run games.

Pick out the 15 losses and explain how he lost them.

This should be good for a chuckle.

Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.

Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.

LOL, come on Pumpsie, you know very well that the only people who thought the 'list of Tito's losses' was brilliant were the Fellowship of the Miserable Tito Bashers. The way you talk about Tchandra you sound like you wanted him nominated for a Nobel Prize. Too funny.

Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.

LOL, come on Pumpsie, you know very well that the only people who thought the 'list of Tito's losses' was brilliant were the Fellowship of the Miserable Tito Bashers. The way you talk about Tchandra you sound like you wanted him nominated for a Nobel Prize. Too funny.

Apparently Cherington has let the cat out of the bag. The search for a new manager will occur sooner rather than later this year. Here is what he said in an interview on WEEI:

"I'd always rather get the decision right than rush it," Cherington said. "But what we know we need to do is hit the ground running this offseason. One of the things that, as I look back on last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason and I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure."

Apparently Cherington has let the cat out of the bag. The search for a new manager will occur sooner rather than later this year. Here is what he said in an interview on WEEI:

"I'd always rather get the decision right than rush it," Cherington said. "But what we know we need to do is hit the ground running this offseason. One of the things that, as I look back on last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason and I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure."

Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.

LOL, come on Pumpsie, you know very well that the only people who thought the 'list of Tito's losses' was brilliant were the Fellowship of the Miserable Tito Bashers. The way you talk about Tchandra you sound like you wanted him nominated for a Nobel Prize. Too funny.

FOM...thats an old term. What was the acronym we pasted on the other side? POOPS I think. Oh well...bygones. In any event, I do think that TChandra had some good points. Francona made a lot of tactical errors, even if you didn't agree with ALL 15 instances mentioned in that post. Its the job of the manager to put his players in the best possible position to win, and too often I don't think Tito did that.