chris (uk) - 03/09/03 07:22:52 EST
Lacan's clinical structure perversion is described as disavowal of the name of the father. But (I think) Zizek's ethical point is that are emersed in a fetishistic culture of disavowal. I want to be the object of your desire: I want you to be the object of my desire. But when a man turns a woman into the object of his desire, what happens to the object a in a culture of 'plus de jouir' and dilute but impulsive desire? Zizek seems to look at a love beyond disavowal, to arrive at the figure of Judas (who alone makes love possible!). I hope someone visiting this site gets to go to Zizek's talk and trust there will be some forthcoming transcription of it.

lucas - 03/08/03 17:56:18 EST
I think Fink talks about the Other imposing its desire on a another (the child) who then assumes the desire of the Other as its language or better yet that "other talk". Undoubtly I am wrong (which is my other talk LOL) but I see this very much connected to kant with sade...but don't ask me how for I really do feel more than I think. Which i suppose brings me to chris's perversion. We need Antonia to systematize this please.

chris (uk) - 03/08/03 17:14:39 EST
(darned technology)
There a lot of 'substitution' in Zizek's Symptom 3 paper, so much so that I thought he was writing about Kleinian projective identification for a while, but this work looks beyond sometimes perverse situations substituting 'for' the real thing. 'Wanting the Other's desire' can't be too far from 'wanting to be the object of the other's desire', which closes in on a perverse situation. But doesn't Zizek turns perverse ethics into an extraordinary index with love as reference? Should we separate desire from ethics (in these diifficult times)?

Antonia - 03/08/03 15:38:27 EST
question is that up to now we had the desire 'of' the Other, as Chris says
then Bruce Fink introduced the desire 'for' the Other like Chris (uk) I tend to think it is the desire 'of' the Other... still I don't think either of them can comprehend the 'wanting the Other's desire' concept

lucas - 03/08/03 06:22:52 EST
I agree with you Antonia ...and then it gets substituted and anything will do...anything can be the locus of the same question: "do you want me, love me, desire me?" and yet the question and substitution are not recognized for what they are....its always something else

Antonia - 03/07/03 22:49:22 EST
the little girl asks the mother for a toy, for a biscuit, for... what does the little girl want? asks Freud...
desire - forever the desire of a desire - what the little girl wants is that the mother (Other) desires her.
Not that she wants the Other - she wants the Other to desire her. Again, desire is in the Other.

lucas - 03/07/03 15:18:49 EST
I cannot tell you about analytical philosophy, although I try. I do what works and what works is that everybody, poor, rich, woman, man, dying and worried well, all seem to come with the same underlying question a desire for love and recognition. Our job is to connect with that underlying question and to respond to it at an unconscious level and yet at the same time being aware of what it is at a conscious level...perhaps I amke no sense but cannot and I repeat NOT theoretically explain. But thanks for the clarification, it helps

chris (uk) - 03/07/03 12:54:09 EST
Lucas, Lacanian desire would be desire 'of' the Other, rather than for the Other. Doesn't Lacan posit a desire which is not like jouissance and can be opposed to it? What you suggest could be read as jouissance instead of desire. Hence, Lacanian desire, to be understood, it seems to me, makes sense clinically before it makes sense as analytical philosophy

lucas - 03/07/03 07:24:58 EST
desire is desire for the other, be it drug, woman, man, not me, whatever but it is a misapprehension to quote:"The other jouissance, ...., is a jouissance of the always elsewhere, always other." I suppose that the simple would be "looking for love in all the wrong places" and I suppose that the subject that is supposed to know would need to know about the hole.

Rupert - 03/07/03 00:17:42 EST
Is it desire? And is not pleasure (plaisir) a metaphor for entertainment? Unless you think that love is the drug..

lucas - 03/06/03 06:17:14 EST
why would repitition be the drug? If we make an anology I would think that the drug is what is being sought and that the pleasure, if even short lived and destructive, is what is sought. Thus repition is fueled by the desire for the pleasure provided by the drug.

chris (uk) - 03/06/03 01:51:40 EST
In his recent work, Slavoz Zizek seems to imply the possibility of going beyond perverse symptoms. Have just read 'The Interpassive Subject', printed in Symptom 3 (and 'The Fragile Absolute', some time ago) and wish I could be in New York for forthcoming lecture. Doesn't Zizek suggest that in a perverse world, repetition and love arrive at Sophie's Choice and subjective destitution beyond any kind of ethical big Other?

Rupert - 03/06/03 00:39:07 EST
Maybe repetition is what fuels symptoms which prompt jouissance... A vicious circle? In many cases we do enjoy our symptoms... Repetition is the drug...

Paul - 03/05/03 03:14:00 EST
you can let go of symptoms, sure... of course this may entail you are soon trapped in another one, which can be as bad as the first one. but the fact that it is a new symptom makes it easier to deal with - there isn't the habit.

lucas - 03/04/03 06:32:58 EST
perhaps that was what jack was getting to on 2/26/03? Can we really let go of symptoms or can we only become painfully/ironically/and then comically aware and thus "enjoy our symptom"?

lucas - 03/03/03 21:43:19 EST
Don't symptoms provide jouissance? If not why would one keep repiting the same olde thing?

Antonia - 03/03/03 21:01:46 EST
Chris (uk) - I don't think the forcing of the One with regard to the naming of jouissance involves a superego imperative. Lacan would often talk of making a story, a myth - and this is the story of yourself. More like a myth since throughout analysis you watch yourself repeating yourself... and now you want to loose jouissance in behalf of the plus-of-jouissance you want to recover. Actually you want to stop with the repetition endeavor. I think it stands more in the like of 'here's the same old "me," (here comes the name you gave yourself, a proper name) doing the same old thing...

chris (uk) - 02/27/03 13:50:55 EST
Antonia, this term 'forcing' derived from 'forcage' is presumably from Lacan or Lacanian practice, not referred to in Britton's paper, but could this notion of 'forcing the One through the Other' bear some relation to a superego imperative, such as 'Enjoy' or 'Consume': a 'forcible' superego challenged by the One 'forced' through the Other. In which case, the superego dilutes the objet a to subvert 'the One and the Other': in which case, the therapist's desire is challenged ...

Paul - 02/27/03 09:22:19 EST
is the name of jouissance the name of the symptom?

Antonia - 02/27/03 07:38:10 EST
Chris (UK) - actually I think the forcing of the One stands in relation to the naming of the jouissance - the One of the jouissance - a rather cinical turn which should come up at the end of analysis.

jack - 02/26/03 01:37:38 EST
The body is never one, except projectively, virtually. One is the number of the real--one is an impossible number. The experience of the one-ness of the body, in the imaginary, is always disappointing. You are not what you see in the mirror. Something is always left over, which is the one that you are not. No two, no hairless ape and his/her reflection, no two people in love, ever make a one. There is no sexual rapport. The other jouissance, the jouissance of the woman who does not exist, is a jouissance of the always elsewhere, always other. Yes, I think the subject-supposed-to-know is the subject who is supposed to make this one possible; who, I suppose, at the end of analysis, is realized as impossible, as the subject him/or herself irrevocably devided, a subject of desire.

Chris (uk) - 02/24/03 18:15:42 EST
'Forcage' or 'forcing' implies prescription, but in this instance, could the 'forcing of the One ...' have to do with the 'demand' addressed to a subject-supposed-to know?

Antonia - 02/24/03 17:39:37 EST
chris (uk) - Indeed, Miller states in concern with the operation proper to psychoanalysis - a forcing that brings jouissance to meaning...
In opposition to desire, jouissance is a category which is supported by the One. We can always dream the jouissance of the Other, but jouissance is attached to the body proper, the body of the One.

chris (uk) - 02/24/03 15:13:04 EST
You hit the spot again Antonia.
But 'the One' Britton describes is not only real ... or virtual, but social, if capitalism duplicates the objet a to such an extent that the democratic ideal loses its place in relation to the objet a: hence therapy's new challenge, which Britton surprisingly prescribes as: forcing (forcage) of the One of jouissance through the Other of language'.
In the last few days, I came across a 'liberation' interview with Jacques-Alain Miller on the subject of the couch in psychoanalysis and almost by chance, I found a recent IPA document, illustrated with a series of psychoanalytic interiors, including couches. In the interview, Miller makes it clear that personal contact is essential to therapy despite a virtual couch and analytic chatrooms. Referring to analyst and analysand, Miller says: 'Their mutual presence in flesh and blood is necessary, if for no other reason than to have emerge the sexual non-relation. If one sabotages the real, the paradox disappears. All modes of virtual presence, even the most sophisticated, will run into that.'

Antonia - 02/24/03 13:45:45 EST
katja - JA Miller in lacanian ink 21: Opaque jouissance. Thence the question of how one can reach, touch this jouissance of the One and modify it. Is jouissance part of meaning or not? Lacan asserts the phoneme of meaning in jouissance in order to say that it is also from meaning. But if jouissance is from meaning, then the Other would be quite naturally implicated, because meaning has value only for the Other. Lacan says "jouis-sens" in Television - he brakes the word to expose meaning there. But that was just a first step which led him to pose the question and to give the opposite response in "Joyce-le-Symptome," where he says that jouissance is opaque. Juissance excludes meaning, that's why it is opaque. Ananlysis will nevertheless bring jouissance to meaning in order to resolve it - resolution meaning denouement.

katja - 02/23/03 11:37:45 EST
Chris (UK): if you please, seeing as you take an interest in Brittons paper, could you give me your understanding of The One. Im thinking that it is - all that opposes the law and The Other, an identification with The One being the subjects attempt to transgress the limitations of The Other??
Chris of Great Brit: The Other Who Does not Exist and His Ethical Committees (w/Eric Laurent) in Almanac of Psychoanalysis 1 (1998), pp. 15-35.

chris (uk) - 02/22/03 18:02:45 EST
Does anyone know how I can get hold of copy of Jacques-Alain Miller and Eric Laurent's 'The Other Which Does Not Exist and its Ethical Committees ?

sonny - 02/20/03 14:26:04 EST
Antonia, I've been reading Freud's Massenpsychologie and Future of an Illusion. If religion, and mass formations like fascism (understood as return of the repressed as found in Moses and Monotheism) are comparable to neuroses, then perhaps rituals of racism could be considered to be the symptoms of these neuroses. But these are very different, it seems, from Britton's understanding of what social symptoms are, ex. depression, anorexia etc..

madison - 02/20/03 10:28:18 EST
Any one suggest useful startin point for close analysis (i.e short paper on short paper)that links Lacan to Freud re ideas on narcisism and psychosis?

chris (UK) - 02/19/03 18:13:40 EST
Bob, including Kleinians together with Ego Psychologists could be unfair. Although, Kleinian projective identification seems to have to do with imaginary identification, it surely concerns a relationship of fantasy and the real. When Kleinians refer to the survival of the therapist, could this be reference to the 'birth of the Other'? Perhaps, its time I got around to looking at Lacan's relationship with Klein. Could Klein's work have some bearing on the Other jouissance of Seminar XX in some way?

Antonia - 02/14/03 20:12:43 EST
what other than a social symptom can racism be?
it could be interesting to see it in the light of The Genome lag that Terry1 was talking about.

sonny - 02/14/03 12:37:07 EST
Could things like racism, xenophobia etc. be considered social symptoms as well? If so, how does one escape the simplistic analogy of the individual hysteric or neurotic with a society's mass hysteria? Does Lacan ever address Freud's mass-psychology? In Freud's analysis of Massenmenschen he seems to equate the mass social formation with the family, and shows how 'herd-mentalities' can be elucidated with reference to the dynamics of the family as the smallest unit of social organization. Couldn't one conclude from this that all symptoms are social symptoms, precisely because individual, i.e. non-social, symptoms are fabricated within a family dynamic which is already social? Or am I missing the point and the distinction between the two senses of 'symptom'?

Terry1 - 02/12/03 17:37:55 EST
Chris I see you are going to have your channel dug out there on Mount St. Michel? Mount St. Michel is the second largest visitor attraction outside Paris the Guardian tells me today.

Terry1 - 02/12/03 17:35:28 EST
Words are great Antonia.....

Antonia - 02/10/03 23:20:29 EST
Thank you Terry 1 for the Genome lag explain. What a great concept...
and how does self indulgence applie to this?

chris (uk) - 02/10/03 17:12:15 EST
Britton posits the One (of lethal jouissance) worked through the Other, as the discourse of the analyst, locating 'social symptoms' as the challenge of contempory psychoanalysis ... to 'capitalise' further on Howard Britton's paper: Britton sees a divide between capitalism and democracy, to the extent that the Other of democracy is eclipsed by the 'plus-de-jouir' of capitalism. Because paternal function is jeapardised by 'plus-de-jouir' and a 'lethal jouissance', Islamic politics can still identify an ideal, which can be used to limit jouissance. Consequently, capitalism seems to be at odds with democracy and Islamic politics. Britton's 'social symptoms', depressions, addictions and eating disorders, concern the One as opposed to the Other, but in what sense is the current political crisis an attempt to mediate the One via the Other, if Zizek is right and the Other is an unbearable Other?

Terry1 - 02/09/03 18:50:12 EST
The problem with science is that everytime we step on a plane we confirm 'conventional' science or the EXACT sciences.We need the EXACT sciences but we also need the LINGUISTIC sciences also . What's needed is a fusion of the two. Lacan does this.

chris (uk) - 02/09/03 14:11:55 EST
sad molecule oasis funk, Lacanian topology etc. might have a lot to do with Seminar XX. but (right now) I would recommend Howard Britton's paper in this sites online paper. Its called 'Contempory Symptoms' and concerns the Other as almost absent, but in a very different way.

sad molecule oasis funk - 02/09/03 12:03:54 EST
chris if you noticed, I am working through Seminar One and am seriously considering becoming more serious (but at what?). I find that beneath layers of joking and constant anxiety-happiness, there is a great deal of being sad. or is it reading lacan/freud the problem? my narcissistic libidinal cathexis (attached to my ego, rather than object-libido cathexis)is being stripped bare and the precariously fabled identity wobbles. Who is this new discourse in relation to? is that the narcissist's problem? If there is no other,no analyst, then the narcissism undone would leave an open wound and it's physical suffering, which narcotics would love to pacify, but we just saw last week its not a solution.

chris (uk) - 02/08/03 18:02:20 EST
Words are Saddam's downfall and his downfall may have to do with a 'writing in the real'. As for 'scientific endeavour', I remember reading somewhere recently that Freud set out to prove that science is littered with metaphysics and when Lacan supposes there's no metalanguage, he means science is indelibly linked to the truth of the unconscious. But then, science and psychoanalysis have a problematic relationship?

Terry1 - 02/08/03 14:52:12 EST
Of course Freudian/Lacanian theory can be thought of as being the most scientific of sciences. Every session is a new scientific endeavour. But Saddam has been trapped by language. Words have/will be the downfall of Saddam in a conventional sense. I'm sure this has not escaped your attention. The Inspector's are trying to prove a Null Hypothesis and of course a Null Hypothesis can only be falsified . It cannot be proved, so we have invasion by inspection. To prove a negative is impossilbe so the natural drive or end game is war. As Aristotle said: 'only the dead know the end of war' To stabilise America war is an economic and social imperative: Freud noted ' When the army is at war, there is peace in the army'

chris (uk) - 02/08/03 06:54:19 EST
Terry1/ Jack. On one side a beautiful description of Lacanian topology, then Terry1 mixing latter day Darwinism and psychoanalysis, despite there being no such ... mix? But as Jack implies, words fall down when we 'nail' things which can't be nailed. And if we apply a 'genome lag' to a very pervasive political reality at the moment, we seem to arrive at impasse or conclusions bound by the discourse of mastery.
What of Saddam then? If he has no missiles of mass destruction (when Darwinism and psychoanalysis are conflated), he must be psychotic and is a grave danger to the 'group': if he has missiles he must be a pervert caught up in a process of disavowal. But evolutionary arguements tend towards mastery and a topology covers there being no such thing. Without the discourse of the master we have strange symptoms which can be made sense of providing we remember Freud's science, which is a 'science of the particular'. And art 'makes sense' of the discourse of the hysteric (and a discourse of impasse) in particular ways: perhaps, Jack, you can feel sorry for people trapped in a suffocating world, but we've yet to analyse away our fascination for Van Gogh or Sylvia Plath: or the suffocation contempory politicians feel as they try to make sense of impasse ... but, we have the potential of impasse, of knots, of dreams, of medical science, of beautiful topology and words which fall away ...

Terry1 - 02/07/03 19:05:09 EST
OK Antonia self indulgence.....The Genome lag has been referred to as a form of neurotic behaviour which is associated with our evolutionary past. For instance the continual washing of hands may be seen as the evolutionary injuction to stay clean or die. So those selective behaviours are adapted into the gene pool. Paranoid Schozophrenia can be seen as an evolutionary requirement no longer needed. The role of the Schozophrenic can be seen to have an evolutionary function i. e. The Group Splitting Hypothesis. The Schozophrenic's role is to split groups that get to large . This occurs as a leader with wild dreams and thoughts arises in historical circumstances to split groups that get too large for their own suvival.Schozophrenia sis seen as the 'cost' we pay for acquiring language.

lucas - 02/06/03 06:15:38 EST
Desire consumes and leads to death...symbolic in some realms but very real in others. I do not know but a dead body that ODd is not very romantic to gaze at or to try to bring back to life.

Cassandra - 02/05/03 23:18:00 EST
Jack, did you experienced it as something already happened? Like in a dream?

Katja - 02/04/03 21:51:18 EST
there is perhaps a miscommunication: of course a huge part of the analytic "cure" is a "self-authentificated reconstruction of the subject's history" and thus via speaking a means of pacifying/reconstructing that history. I do not suggest a re-living of failed identifications, but that these failed identifications are the construction of the phantasy through which we relate to the other, the Other, and the drives; we cannot speak of "those failures being symptoms" - those failures occur before the symbolic: it is the retroactive effect of the symbolic on these failed identifications that construct the phantasy as the primary defense or the subjects only protective mechanism upon the encounter of difference (ie the master signifier) the peculiarity of symptoms will be constructed by the phantasy and found in the phantasy. But thank you for your "help."

molly - 02/04/03 09:36:06 EST
Indeed, Jack, there are no schizo desiring machines, however, this is because the schiz itself is the condition of possibility of the machinations of desire. Because psychosis, the limit of freedom, is a limit internal to the social order, constructed, moreover, on 'this side' of that limit, the order must be purged so it can be secured in the process.

Violet - 02/01/03 21:16:49 EST
angels, invisible spirits who fly through the air bearing messages, have a close resemblance to spoken words.

chris (uk) - 02/01/03 17:22:11 EST
I think you must be referring to my mess, why do I think you are referring to my mess? In a Suzanne Bernard paper I came across a(nother) line: 'Strange' is a word that can be broken down in French - etrange, etre-ange.(Lacan, Seminar XX) A week or so ago, angels cropped up in a conversation about a Russian film director 'who saw an angel', but I was expecting we'd get as far as there being an Other jouissance and anOther jouissance. The Other jouissance must surely be linked to something Zizek keeps reitterating: the idea of an unbearable Other. And clearly, the Other jouissance as an angel is far removed from the Other jouissance as unbearable Other. But we have 'etrange' and 'etre-ange' and silences which crop up in therapy and this room ...

... Bob - 01/31/03 21:42:23 EST
this is non-sense - not symptoms - have they eat their Dasein?

Lucy - 01/29/03 00:50:33 EST
the toxic substance provokes the fading of the subject, in favor of a speech immediately become that of the Other: a time in brackets, where words and acts cannot create memories, since they are broken off from any history that could be assumed by a subject, this history comes back with a painful and grey awakening.

katja - 01/28/03 21:19:52 EST
If we can say that the subject is bound by the Other (ie. that the subject in language is given bodily coherence and an identity via signifying material)and that the desire of the subject is always the desire of the Other (and extimate), could it not follow that the addict uses substances as a mediating mechanism; ie. that the toxic substance mediates the subjects relation to the Other in so far as signifying material fails to cover the real of the drive thus pacifying the desire of the Other/other - the substance functioning as an assimilated 'demand' - an artificial demand erected by the subject- rendering the subject bound by (the demand of) the substance in place of the Other/other.

Lucy - 01/28/03 18:32:29 EST
the feminine experience throughout more joy, which is indeed fulfillment, will not fail to disrupt the subject. And this is the core with divestment: jouissance Other deprives the subject, at once to banish it.

Sarah - 01/27/03 21:03:41 EST
oh shut up i was just curious

chris (isles de la manche) - 01/27/03 13:44:44 EST
Sarah, have not heard of mind controller, Darran Brown, unless this is what I'm supposed to say. In fact, I'm from a little island in the French bay of St Michel, once part of the Duchy of Normandy, but English spoken (now) and just about UK. Perhaps, I was supposed to say this too!

Sarah - 01/26/03 21:43:15 EST
i know this is completely off the point etc. but would anybody, or could anybody please shed some light on this "mind control" guy Daran Brown: it's interesting what he seems to do be doing - chris? you're from the UK, surely you've seen this...?

chris (uk) - 01/26/03 19:12:26 EST
perhaps we're all a bit grown up sometimes and could make use of 'lalangue': we could look at 'llanguage'as nostalghia or look at Nostalghia as 'llanguage', but not as symptomatic expression. Does the expression of 'llanguage' seem more natual around children? I remember miniature sequences with trees, river and snow in 'Nostalghia'. So how about: 'Olga was vulgar on the Volga'. I hope slichanoo never gets to see this !

Jack - 01/26/03 03:55:46 EST
Terryl, I have only read the first few pages of it--but I have heard very good things about it, and it seems to be moving in the right direction; it is much respected in the Freudian Field.I read a book in French--very good French--whose title translates as _The Way of the Wolf_ (La Voie du Loup), by a Lacanian analyst named Michelle Faivre-Jussiaux, and I wanted to translate it, and would have also liked to have scripted the movie; it moved me to tears. It is about the analysis of a feral child, a little psychotic girl.A friend of mine told me that the _Birth of the Other_ affected him in the same way.I believe that Rosine Lefort's wolf-boy is the one Lacan refers to in Seminar I.I don't like recommending books I haven't read, but it is there, recommended by people I respect.There are also some very useful case histories in back issues of the Newsletter of the Freudian Field, and in various anthologies, and in publications from Russell Grigg's Australian group, if you can find them.It might be easier to learn French.

chris (uk) - 01/25/03 17:56:14 EST
Antonia, have had chance to read through Jacques-Alain's paper once and will have to read it again. The emergence of the Other in early Lacan is very impressive stuff, but an impression persists that theoretical complexity (however eloquent) tends to overwhelm case details. In theoretical work, a complexity tends towards 'mastery', while emphasis in clinical work stresses the client's S1. Papers which describe clinical work may seem to conflate knowing and not knowing. Paul Verhaeghe writes: 'The discourse of the master instills knowledge, but produces the object a in such a way that it cannot be related to the divided subject. The analytic discourse starts beyond this knowledge, with this object a in the position of the agent in a causal relationship to the divided subject, who produces an S1 of his/ her own'. (Beyond Gender, Other Press p. 47) Verhaeghe (2001.47)

Terry1 - 01/25/03 15:35:23 EST
Jack what did you make of that book: 'The birth of the Other' It's written so sensitively and with care.

Lucy - 01/25/03 13:47:18 EST
chris (uk) - Though it may be unfindable "Returning to Freud," published by Yale in 1980 has a lacanian psychosis interview by Jacques Lacan himself, and Teachings of the case presentation by JA Miller, and more cases by other people...

jack - 01/24/03 21:20:44 EST
The clinical case studies available in French and Spanish would fill more than my small apartment. I'm not joking. Yes, you do need to take French lessons, and some Spanish wouldn't hurt. We have less than the tip of the iceberg in English.

chris (uk) - 01/24/03 19:49:40 EST
I'm looking for material on the writing up of clinical work. When Lacanian practice seems less prescriptive and has much to do with learning from clients, the work may be described in a different way or in different ways. There is less reference to case examples in Lacanian literature and reference to clinical Lacan in English translation seems slight. Fink and Dor tackle the subject ... but do I need to take French lessons?

Vespucci - 01/24/03 02:04:37 EST
Triumph of the ego. I wander. Why don't you stop writing? Or do you long for a reflection, a substantiation for your, let us not say ego, rather, nom de plum? -Amerigo

Rupert - 01/24/03 01:28:35 EST
Isn't it romantic this nostalgia of the ego? Regression as such posited as longing, defined by the same conscious and assertive drive to suffering... Well, at last the return of the triumph of the will. Oh America... Is the symptom resolved in analysis? It recurs as displeasure and suffering... And should regression be interpreted as symptom?

paul - 01/20/03 19:06:44 EST
with Freud the analytical experience was set off by virtue of the dream, the slip of the tongue, the Witz. A fourth element is the symptom that may serve, not as verbum, since it is not made of phonems, but as signum...

Antonia - 01/19/03 19:51:10 EST
The arbitrary act of the Prince... says Lacan - actually a Prince condemns Dostoevsky and then saves his life.

Terry1 - 01/19/03 18:37:01 EST
Not to interrupt this discourse./Dostoevsky himself was an epileptic and was put in front of a firing squad.The Prince bases his life on a donkey: 'It works hard and never complains'.......

chris (uk) - 01/19/03 07:34:17 EST
slichanoo, You seem to require rigorous arguement and I can only say I don't know. But this extraordinary recall is interesting ... exciting too, but about what? Are we caught up in the zone? Tarkovski's films are about forgetting too, even nostalgia(!) ... and 'the zone is neutral'. Please expand what strikes you in Marc's 'for gainsake would be unspeakable in their imaginary realm'. My question involved the Stalker's jouissance and if there is no answer, it seems to me we're left with the little girl and Tarkovski's angel. As for locating something in terms of triadic structure: angelic jouissance, real enough for the director, perhaps ... but not necessarily analysable, unless we analyse the gaze of angels ...
Walter Benjamin's angel referred to about a week ago, came from his last work, written just before he died crossing the Pyrenees in 1940.