Friday, June 24, 2016

Of course, these are Democrats in general, once we limit the discussion to the SJW subset you can be certain that far more than a paltry 34.4 percent of them are suffering from depression or some other mental health issue. These people are not sane or healthy, they are quite literally sick in mind, body, and soul. Case in point: our friends at File 770.

Tasha Turner:

Any trigger warnings for Seveneves? One of the few things I still need to read to finish off my Hugo voting. I’ve had a couple things trigger my PTSD over the last couple weeks and am trying to avoiding books with of my major issues: abuse, suicide, torture, fridging, loads of graphic violence…

Paul Weimer:

RE: Fifth Season. I concur with many above. Not a happy book, and if I was in one of my down depressive cycles, definitely not the book I should be personally reading. Fortunately I read it when I was on an even keel and so was able to absorb the book’s bleak tone (Starting WITH the apocalypse, and not getting happier from there) with equanimity.

Sounds like a fun, upbeat, and totally stable group of people, doesn't it? I may have to rethink my Hugo voting order; if N.K. Jeminsin's Hugo-nominated The Fifth Season is inspiring SJWs to off themselves, maybe there is something to this award-winning Pink SF sewage after all!

151 Comments:

To be fair, "depression" is a nebulous concept at best and might not even exist. And who isn't anxious? Mind doctors simply aren't to be trusted. But there is some significance to the fact that, among the people diagnosed by an untrustworthy profession, this or that group is more likely to be branded sick.

Any trigger warnings for Seveneves? One of the few things I still need to read to finish off my Hugo voting. I’ve had a couple things trigger my PTSD over the last couple weeks and am trying to avoiding books with of my major issues: abuse, suicide, torture, fridging, loads of graphic violence…

What's the victim version of virtue signalling? There's this constant contest amongst SJWs to be recognised as the most pathetic lifelong victim. The number one preferred target of anyone who is close to sane. The one God wrote "Kick ME!" on their DNA...

tublecane wrote:To be fair, "depression" is a nebulous concept at best and might not even exist. And who isn't anxious? Mind doctors simply aren't to be trusted. But there is some significance to the fact that, among the people diagnosed by an untrustworthy profession, this or that group is more likely to be branded sick.

I think the point is they're very likely to be taking a cocktail of mind-altering substances ... which means you won't get sense, reason, reliability, consistency, coherence, loyalty, or anything approaching normality, out of them.

There is a clear correlation. Which way does the causal arrow point, though? Are depressed, anxious people more prone to SJW politics, or does the constant moving target of Political Correctness drive people to beome more anxious and depressed?

If depression has a partial genetic link, does that mean political tendencies also have such a link?

There is a clear correlation. Which way does the causal arrow point, though? Are depressed, anxious people more prone to SJW politics, or does the constant moving target of Political Correctness drive people to beome more anxious and depressed?

If depression has a partial genetic link, does that mean political tendencies also have such a link?

Because of course no one should be forthcoming about any mental weakness. The possibility must never even be acknowledged. A long-standing attitude that contributes to the suicide rates among soldiers and police, for whom you profess to have more respect.

Migly wrote:So now you're scraping underneath the barrel for these cheap shots?

It's an observation, not a shot. If you don't want to be thought of as mentally unstable, don't tell the whole friggin' world about your mental instability. That's what friends and family are for. Nobody online cares or wants to hear it.

I looked up "fridging" it has three meanings1) what we used to call "fridge surfing" rummaging through the fridge and/or cupboards even though you're not really hungry, without actually picking anything out.2) literally putting dead (or sometimes live) women into refrigerators. some people are very sick.3) killing off a secondary character (love interest, sidekick, relative) in a story specifically to induce a reaction in the primary character. Named for a Green Lantern story where the bad guy stuffed the corpse of Kyle Rayner's girlfriend in the fridge for him to find.

Shy that would be harder on the reader than the regular murder/rape/arson/planet-shattering KABOOMs of comic book fare, I don't pretend to know.

The only SF/F book that ever depressed me even a little bit was The Darkness that Comes Before by R.S. Bakker, and that was because his prose is truly, TRULY grim and gritty like nobody else's ever was or will be. Within 200 pages you've seen a half-speciated super-man who can control other people on a whim with his words and read their thoughts based on facial movements (and betrays the man who saved him from dying of frostbite by using him as a decoy to draw off hideous man-eating monsters with porcelain faces), a paranoid wizard who has nightmares of the apocalypse every night, and his streetwalker girlfriend who gets ravished by a millennia-old rape-alien the minute he goes to work on finding the bloodthirsty agents of a nihilistic god-being (if it can indeed be called that) that seeks to destroy everyone and everything for reasons even it doesn't understand, in order to save the obscene warlocks who summoned it from scriptural damnation.

Send them a copy of that and they'd all off themselves within 20 minutes.

Migly wrote:So now you're scraping underneath the barrel for these cheap shots?

Because of course no one should be forthcoming about any mental weakness. The possibility must never even be acknowledged. A long-standing attitude that contributes to the suicide rates among soldiers and police, for whom you profess to have more respect.

That's what priests and confession are for. Otherwise, it is impolite to burden other people with your issues.

It's not cheap, it's just easy. Mercy is only for those who request it.

Because of course no one should be forthcoming about any mental weakness. The possibility must never even be acknowledged. A long-standing attitude that contributes to the suicide rates among soldiers and police, for whom you profess to have more respect.

What does it matter if they acknowledge the obvious or not? We don't need their admissions to know that they are sick, unstable, and stupid. It is readily observable. It has, in fact, been observed.

Depression, when it is actual depression, is something very real and demostrable: a deficit of Serotonine which can be solved pharmacologicaly.Then again there doubtlessy are legions of SJWs crying on each other's shoulders because the cashier at Mc Donald's wouldn't give them the happy meal toy even if they're 30 years old and they probably call that "depression" but when the doctors ran the tests on me they diagnosed it no problem.

They are the elite who rule our legislature, our courts of law, our administration and police, the bureaucracy, the press, the entertainment industry, the Democrat Party, and, in the last two decades, the Science Fiction Writers of America, the Nebula, and the Hugo Awards.

They are the Left. They are the Mouth of Sauron and the voice of Nihilism.

They are the termites all the honest men were too busy or too lazy to exterminate out of our homes while the bugs gnawed through the load bearing members.

I might be crazy. But when I figured things out, I learned to enjoy it. Usually alone in that, but once in a while, someone cracks around me, on my side, and I teach them to giggle like a fool and make it count. Who knew. No need to whine about it. And why be down. A little ptsd goes well with several other brands of the stuff, a little hooch, and a good game. Wee!

This is probably just an error in the original chart, but I have to admit I am highly skeptical that that the proportion of Democrats with narcissistic personality disorder registers as 0.0%, or at least close enough not to show up on that graph.

(I am biased by my automatic assumption that the majority of people who go into politics, like the majority of those who go into entertainment, have at least mild narcissism, but I fully concede that particular skew in my thinking.)

Actually, Vox, you touch on a subject that is the very thing that the people behind the movie "Heathers" was aiming at with the depiction of how overblowing depression and suicide (while it was murder of course) was spreading depression and suicide.

The "hippy teacher" character is practically in charge now.

But I must concur with your observations and take it farther: our best weapon against these SJWs may already be in use, usually in the form of "trolling" and the way SJWs were lampooned under #TheTriggering hashtag.

That weapon is the "hard world" of sorts. Imagine truly shocking scifi that makes you think the next day. Stuff like that.

This is probably why SJW writers stink so much - especially those that want to signal boost The Progressive Stack using any medium they are involved in. Almost like they all went to the same bad writing school even though they have not.

So perhaps we need to consider that while we spend energy on fighting them, we should also press on as if they are brushed aside and bring out that "triggering" fiction, that really hard stuff that gets under the skin of even a normal person, and drive these mentally ill terrible people further into the abyss where they belong.

Stephen J. wrote:This is probably just an error in the original chart, but I have to admit I am highly skeptical that that the proportion of Democrats with narcissistic personality disorder registers as 0.0%, or at least close enough not to show up on that graph.

Modern progressivism seems to actually be a narcissistic personality disorder. Among the useful idiots, anyway. The movers and shakers are simply sociopaths.

" I’ve had a couple things trigger my PTSD over the last couple weeks and am trying to avoiding books with of my major issues: abuse, suicide, torture, fridging, loads of graphic violence…"

Fridging? What the hell is fridging? Google turns up "women in refrigerators" ... what the hell sorts of friends does she have that she would be in a refrigerator AND held there against her will (as there are no locking refrigerators)...

The "victim olympics" is a contest for a better position in the "progressive stack" of "intersectional feminism."

This never-ending game is highly competitive, its rules are constantly in flux, and many of the contestants have a tenuous grip on reality in the first place, so it should come as no surprise that some people cheat. Perhaps ironically, such cheating (e.g. Munchausen syndrome) is itself disordered, and would thus grant some "victim points" even if discovered; less amusingly, it can have victims beyond the perpetrator, as with Munchausen by proxy (e.g. baby poisoning or childhood gender identity disorder).

Because of course no one should be forthcoming about any mental weakness. The possibility must never even be acknowledged. A long-standing attitude that contributes to the suicide rates among soldiers and police, for whom you profess to have more respect."

Migly... I'm a soldier... had an undiagnosed depression BEFORE my last deployment (to Baghdad, 2006), lost a few frieds in country... have lost 3 more friends to suicide since we came home. My depression was identified and treated by the VA in 2008.

Now, having presented my bona fides regarding this issue, I have only one thing to say with regards to your comment:

Akulkis wrote:Fridging? What the hell is fridging? Google turns up "women in refrigerators" ... what the hell sorts of friends does she have that she would be in a refrigerator AND held there against her will (as there are no locking refrigerators)...

If you put the fridge on its back and shove the landwhale in, they can't get out.

Oh... and another BPD characteristic -- dividing the world into black and white.

Those on the "white list" can do no wrong -- note how, for example, the TOR crowd has no compunction about pedophilia within their ranks, but you KNOW they would hammer Vox, Wright, or Ann Coulter with it relentlessly if any of them had ever displayed even a hint of such aberrant behavior.

In contrast, in their eyes, those on their "black" list can do nothing right. Even when Vox is obviously destroying the man wearing a dress on his huge lawn in the ratings and sale departments, they cannot bring themselves to even acknowledge that Vox is more in tune with the general public and creepy McRapey could ever hope to be.

Migly wrote:So now you're scraping underneath the barrel for these cheap shots?

Because of course no one should be forthcoming about any mental weakness. The possibility must never even be acknowledged. A long-standing attitude that contributes to the suicide rates among soldiers and police, for whom you profess to have more respect.

And if that were what was happening it would be a different story. Unfortunately what I see could kindly be referred to as boasting and competing over non-existant illnesses which are primarily posturing.

@72. The Isreali and US Military data indicate that a proportion of veterans who fought get PTSD. Not all. It is real; dealt with the "real" ones. But a lot of people with an inability to cope also are labeled this because PTSD gets funding, while personality disorders don't.

@75. Draft ICD-11 (next international psychiatry classification) is getting rid of categories for personality and going for a spectrum.From a talk by Bruce Singh, who is on that committee (at the RANZCP Congress in Hong Kong in May)No personality difficulty -- the quarter of the population who are very well adjusted.Personality difficulty -- the half who cope well most of the time but have certain things that will set them off. The non BoringPersonality disorder -- has to cause distress to you or others in more than one setting: Mild, Moderate, Severe.

One of the reasons this is being bought in is that psychiatrists basically only use two diagnoses in DSM5 -- Borderline and Not Otherwise Specified.

These sad SJW specimen alas confirm, again and again, that suffering, whether imagined or real, does not by itself lead to any greatness of spirit. A bit more is needed, from within. Indeed, some might even say SJW spirits are, rather than even modestly refined, undeveloped.

They do much worse to one another than Vox's mild quip. They're mean spirited women who love to inflict pain in a caring passive aggressive manner, it is why when there is a mass murder I ask, "Kos or DU poster?"

30. Blogger Migly June 24, 2016 2:53 PM So now you're scraping underneath the barrel for these cheap shots?

Because of course no one should be forthcoming about any mental weakness. The possibility must never even be acknowledged. A long-standing attitude that contributes to the suicide rates among soldiers and police, for whom you profess to have more respect.

the left was touting some study that supposedly showed conservatives were mentally deficient or psychotic or hate filled for at least a year now. iirc they claimed they could show it thru MRI?

@62"I like to recall how rapidly the USSR's decades of Leninist tyranny evaporated once the WILL of people to enforce it disappeared. Trends based in delusion tend to reverse both on a dime and by a mile."

I like your optimism and wished I shared it. I pray to St. Dymphna that you are correct.

Why her? Well, if one asks a saint to pray alongside you, and add her voice to yours, it is traditional to ask one known for knowing the problem.

Man, I am so sick of people claiming 'PTSD' because they were 'triggered' or had a 'Bad sexual experience'.I HAVE PTSD. and it comes from getting shot several times, being shot at, sleep deprivation for YEARS at a time, and knowing that your life is basically determined by a roll of the dice for a very very long time.

some chick claiming that some boyfriend sticking his dick in her a couple of times and not buying her enough candy afterwards caused 'PTSD' is a total fucking loser.

And it's not PTSD, it's called 'shell shock', and the only reason they changed the name is so that neurotic idiots could claim the same status as combat veterans.

And unlike those stupid hothouse flowers that claim PTSD, I DEAL WITH IT. My family knows that i don't care for fireworks, but I don't claim government money for it, or use it as an excuse to shirk my responsibilities, or try to claim special victim status for it.

As far as i am concerned, people claiming PTSD that haven't been in a life-or-death situation for long periods of time are the same as someone wearing a uniform or combat ribbons they are not entitled to.

Cunt virtue signaler playing up dead retarded kid trying to get RNC delegates to all be superdelagets claims to have 1000 to block TRUMP. THis cunt thinks she is a "rabble rouser" she should go on the SJW list https://www.yahoo.com/news/unconventional-28-colorado-history-teacher-000000818.html

"In one week, we’ve gotten commitments from 400 delegates and alternates. In fact, we have more than 400 — the others just aren’t ready to go public yet."

"There were 30 people on your first conference call last Thursday. A few days later, you had another call with — you claim — 1,000 participants. "

" We have two different spreadsheets: people who will go public and people who will not. But we have their votes"

"When they say the roll call for each state, our [anti-Trump] delegate — and we have them in each delegation — would grab the microphone and challenge, on international TV, the tally of the delegation and the submission of the votes. Then the chair is required to poll the delegation to make sure the vote count is accurate."

There appear to be two strongly divergent types of people that get pushed together under the same label. The first type is broadly synonymous with the dark triad personality type, and the second is broadly synonymous with neuroticism (aka anxiety disorders). The first sort of narcissism seems at first glance to be caused by the MAOA-L gene and the second by the DRD4-7r and CDH13 genes, all three of which are expressed differently at different levels of phenotypic intelligence. The element uniting them is psychological solipsism. In social terms, the first type follows the dominance axis and the second type follows the prestige axis.

The first reason this distinction is important is that the former type is characterized by a near-complete lack of anxiety. This is not to say that they are incapable of feeling stress, but rather that they are incapable of suffering from the anticipation of future stress (ref: Bob Hare’s shock experiment). In fact, they seem to feel stress very strongly and respond explosively.

The second reason this distinction is important is that neurotic narcissists are the sort primarily responsible for the current immigration crisis in Europe. This crisis may have been manufactured by a small clique of wealthy depopulationists (my conspiracy theory on the subject), but it was enabled by tapping into massive reserves of status signalling potential energy in NW Europeans. Heartiste talks about this tendency with respect to Ashkenazim.

This ties back into my theory about people who are designed for anxiety inventing reasons to feel anxious when the environment is saturated with dopamine. One notes that Jews follow the tendency of Scandinavians to be either extremely liberal or extremely conservative (socially, not economically). Currently, the trend seems to be 3:1::liberals:conservatives, with the split following the urban:rural divide which is similar in terms of extremism. Conservatives tend to live in the country, therefore neurotic conservatives tend to live in the deep, deep country, and so on for neurotic liberals.

My current opinion is that 99.9% of political sentiment is directly caused by a person's sexual strategy. There's a nature-nurture interaction, but in general if you can put a shitlib in the gym for a year and get them a decent job they will stop being a shitlib. They'll have obtained money and muscles and will have a good chance of starting a family...and discover that they support family values in politics.

residentMoron wrote:What's the victim version of virtue signalling? There's this constant contest amongst SJWs to be recognised as the most pathetic lifelong victim. The number one preferred target of anyone who is close to sane. The one God wrote "Kick ME!" on their DNA...

Is it just "victim signalling" or do we have another term for it?

If they get paid for writing about it, it may come under the name "schadenfraud".

Oh God help me - this is a great post but its like the insanity of feminism even ecumenicism.

I dont understand or igenderfy with safe spacers, nerves, what is with people today? (REF note, WV is on to the ID and gender confusion as a part of severe societal decline, so we say igendtryfy-fy. Firck.)

It's the group I avoid - I'm bereft. Why can't people take negative issues like PTSD, panics to something productive? Why the rumination? LIke Milo's tours, student crazies, what is wrong with these kids today? Why wont they grow up in that we all change, age and...why am I having to talk about this? Why do mentally ill people think they have the will and command to make the world better, its not your job or vocation when a person is UNWELL.

Nate hit this matter of professional victimhood a while ago, it didn't even occur to me that professional victims exist. This insane inverted celebration of mental illness and sjws BS is ugly, its hideous.

Your limitations could be a catapult to something great, to something to - Nevermind. Lost Topic. All I can do is pray.

If this graphic gets traction amongst the wider media, I guarantee the article headline including it will read Study on politics and mental disorders show Republicans more prone to Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Send them a copy of that and they'd all off themselves within 20 minutes."

Wouldn't work. SJWs would side with the nihilistic god-monster and attendent other monsters, on the basis of their out-group status.

There are Bakker readers who argue just that idea on his fan forums. Really - the demon worshiping rape aliens are less evil than the God of Gods because He believes in patriarchy and wrote it into the fabric of the fictional universe. So, rape aliens get their support.

Ha! A SJW I know IRL is bipolar ("professional", not self diagnosed). He's in one of his "lows"... for the past 2.5 years as they "rebalance" his meds. Which reminds me, I haven't "triggered" him in a while...

'''@62"I like to recall how rapidly the USSR's decades of Leninist tyranny evaporated once the WILL of people to enforce it disappeared. Trends based in delusion tend to reverse both on a dime and by a mile."

I like your optimism and wished I shared it. I pray to St. Dymphna that you are correct.'''

The communists in Russia can plausibly be given the benefit of the doubt -- as Communism had never been tried before, and nobody knew what the results would be. (*)

Modern day Communists in the U.S. cannot claim such revolutionary innocence. The world is filled with evidence that Marxism has never worked anywhere -- and these over-emotional [insert adult age]-going-on-3 cannot, in any way, shape or form claim "In all those other countries, the right people weren't in charge... but We, the American left... WE are rational enough to get it right this time."

Fortunately, unlike the anti-Marxists at the time of the Russian Revolution, we *DO* know what Marxism leads to, AND Maoism, AND Castroism, AND Chavezism, too. And once it gets to shooting, it's going to be take-no-prisoners, kill ALL of them, down to the very last purple-pink-and-green-haired, body-tattooed Trigglypuff.

(*) At the time of Yeltsin's bloodless counter-revolution, the last generations of Party members could be excused with an "I did the best I could to survive in the system I was born into."

Yeah they screwed up with the narcissism. I have yet to meet a committed (pun intended) leftist that wasn't a narcissist. Look at the way any typical leftist reacts when challenged. That is the first tell. Modern leftist philosophy can only appeal to malignant narcissists and complete dumb shits.

NOWHERE in the Bible can you find a single verse telling a man to pray to a saint, or to anyone but God Himself, DIRECTLY, with no intermediaries. In contrast, the First Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." and there are many places throughout the bible which specifically state that necromancy, and any other dealings with "unclean spirits" is not merely frowned upon, but willfully stupid and dangerous.

Is He the God of the hills, but not the valleys, that He needs consultants for special cases? Is He sleeping, that a saint will awaken Him? Is He busy, that a saint will reshuffle his inbox?

Does He take necromancy lightly, or regard chain of communication with indifference? Does He overlook the substitution of His Name for another? Have not men called on that Name since Enosh?

The Centurion who came to him through the Jews, did so as befits a dog, to whom the Kingdom was not yet extended. As for the children, did He not teach us to pray directly? "OUR FATHER..."

We are not even to pray to the Son, but the Father!

Since Jehovah, the Ontoprime Rex, has proclaimed His Name, Man has made every excuse, holy and profane, to avoid and forget it. But every human name is as a feather in the scales against that infinite weight.

Mr. Akulkis, I'm sure Mr. Wright already knew that Protestants believe asking saints in Heaven to pray for us is evil. He and practically every other Catholic has heard these accusations hundreds of times; he's not going to drop everything and become Protestant just because this time *you* said it.

After reading this, I found Scott Adams bringing up a good point, in regarding crime in US cities: "So it seems to me that gun control can’t be solved because Democrats are using guns to kill each other – and want it to stop – whereas Republicans are using guns to defend against Democrats."

@118: Yeah, that was pretty good. He even slipped the racial element into the middle of his argument. And you know, I'm perfectly fine with gun control and hate speech provisions that only apply to Hispanics and non-whites; but just because they can't handle freedom responsibly, is no good reason to infringe on the God-given rights of the founding stock whose forebears bled to secure them.

Amen, brother. After a year of living on a 1 km^2 base under frequent bombardment, often times going to bed and sleeping wearing my helmet and kevlar vest (and you know how difficult it is to get those SAPI plates in and out... so they stayed), it took me 2 more years before I could motivate myself to leave the house for Independance Day festivities (and in Detroit, due to the International Freedom Festival having their fireworks in typically late JUNE, to allow for rain-out, because they buy 3 BARGES full of fireworks for that show), practically every other locality now shifts their fireworks shows ahead a couple days ahead, too...so that now, the local papers actually print a SCHEDULE of who is having fireworks shows on which night. And even with a nearly week of opportunities to go out and see some fireworks somewhere... the first 2 years back, I spent all those nights in bed, mostly surfing the internet and chatting on AIM. My aforementioned depression didn't help much either. Even now....10 years later, going to fireworks shows isn't nearly as enjoyable as before shipping out to Iraq.

I do, however, fully support the continuation of Independence Day fireworks, as the signers of the Declaration of Independence attached to the declaration another proclamation of the Continental Congress that henceforth, July 4th should be celebrated with fireworks, parades, and other festivities.

If you can show us in the Bible where it says to pray to dead people, or even to ask dead people to pray for you, come on out and show it.

Otherwise, you're doing the EXACT same thing that Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing -- putting the traditions of men ABOVE the commandments of God.

That the "Catholic" church doesn't do everything within it's power proves to me that it's merely a Christian vaneer laid on top of the old Roman/Greek pantheocratic paganism.

Again... if I'm wrong, prove it.

As to your comments with regards to Mr. Wright... he is a recent convert to Christianity, and I assume that he is capable of, and will, change his ways long before having his grievous error pointed out to him HUNDREDS of times -- unlike someone as stubbornly sinful as yourself.

...already knew that Protestants believe asking saints in Heaven to pray for us is evil. He and practically every other Catholic has heard these accusations hundreds of times; he's not going to drop everything and become Protestant just because this time *you* said it.

Jesus said: "Is it not written in your law, that I said, You are gods? {Ps 82:6?} If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture is not able to be torn-down),"

Jehovah said: "And in all things that I have said to you* take you* heed and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth."

Protestants will lighten up when Jehovah does.

Jehovah joked:

"If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend, who is as your own soul, entices you secretly , saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, you, nor your fathers, of the gods of the peoples that are all around you*, near to you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth, you will not consent to him, nor listen to him. Neither will your eye pity him, neither will you spare, neither will you conceal him, but you will surely kill him. Your hand will be first upon him to put him to death and afterwards the hand of all the people.

And you will stone him to death with stones, because he has sought to draw you away from Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Though Catholic, I generally spurn the idea of praying to saints or through them, with one exception. The exception is Mary. There are two related reasons why we know she is different. One is in the commandment, "Honor thy Father and thy Mother." The other is in an illustration of Jesus doing just that. You may recall the miracle of turning water into wine, yes? Go read it again. She asks him to assist, right? He basically tells her no. She tells the servants to do as he says anyway. And He _does_what_His_mother_wanted_Him_to_, does He not? He does it even though he initially said "no."

So this, Jesus' illustration of the influence of His mother upon Him isn't good enough? I would differ.

Tom Kratman wrote:So this, Jesus' illustration of the influence of His mother upon Him isn't good enough? I would differ.

By your logic, Mary is no more to be worshipped than the Canaanite woman. Both women were rebuffed, showed faith, and were rewarded.

Moreover, you forget the first portion of Jesus' message to Mary: "My time is not yet come." He likewise submitted to his parents when a boy learning in the temple. When his ministry began, then he ceased to regard her.

For he denied Mary an audience, and said, "Who is my mother?" Thus relegating her to no greater status than any obedient child of the Kingdom. His kinship to her ended on the cross, with his flesh, when she was given to John.

Mary, at the height of her scriptural glory, was called "blessed among women", but not "queen of heaven". For women are accursed, and forbidden the priesthood. Heaven has no queen - there is one "Queen of Heaven", she of the Starry Host, and to Ashtoreth you pray, whose cult of the Goddess is not dead.

@118, @119. Look guys, your brother in Christ you back. Yes, some are Papists, and the Papists are in error. There is a blogger (Mundabor) who regularly tells me I should cross the Tiber for the sake of my soul.

Back him. We can argue... but when push comes to shove, turn up to Kratman's house ready for the elephant.

For some of us, you're simply talking at cross purposes. Because the promise of eternal life is not a promise of a ghost that survives the death of the machine but a promise of resurrection. A re-uniting of the spirit of life with a re-made machine. Abraham was not afraid to offer his only son, who he'd been promised would be father of a great nation, because he had faith that God could raise him up again. Job testified that "in my flesh I will see God".

I'm not that kind of protestant who condemn Catholics for disagreeing with me, I simply don't believe Mary is in heaven to be prayed to. There's nobody there to hear.

Apart from Christ, only Moses and Enoch and Elijah have been received into heaven. Two examples each of the two types of the saved: the dead resurrected, the living (at the end, of whom Paul wrote "we who are alive and remain") translated without seeing death.

Two demonstrations of the truth of God's promise, because God gave the principle that it requires two witnesses to establish the truth.

So I have nothing to say about your piety or sincerity; I accept you as a brother in Christ.

Your argument though, says to me that I should pray to a dead woman and there's just no point to that. She can neither hear nor pass on what she hears.

weka wrote:@118, @119. Look guys, your brother in Christ you back. Yes, some are Papists, and the Papists are in error.

Though the sentiment appeals, this was not the attitude of the Israelites in Joshua 22 - the episode of the altar across the Jordan. They were quite willing to kill without stinting over a small matter of misaddressed prayer.

At the minimum, one might profit from the lesson of Jehoshaphat, and beware entangling alliances. Why borrow another's trouble, if it be from God? Is His hand grown short, that numbers now weigh?

Not to be worshipped, Neander, to be asked for intercession because Jesus, Himself, has demonstrated that he honors His mother's wishes. It is precisely that line, "My time has not yet come," that illustrates He will listen to His mother even against His own inclinations.

Conversely, every time I am in Church for some feast or other focused on Mary-veneration, I get the deep sense that she, a simple and humble, completely virtuous and thoroughly decent woman, doesn't approve but puts up with it for our sake. That's actually the major difference I sense between Catholicism and any number of Protestant sects, that Catholicism is focused on people as they are, and with what they need, spiritually, in the here and now. I don't necessarily feel that I need but, since I am comfortable with it, since I grew up with it, and since I am fairly sure God doesn't really care about trivial differences of doctrine and dogma, I generally stick with it. (Though I recently walked out of church over a political matter - refugees or, rather, military age terrorists masquerading as refugees - and haven't found a parish yet that suits me to return to.)

@NeanderserkWe get that you don't understand some things, like heaven, hell, saints, intercession, prayer, worship, the role of scripture and salvation. You're a Protestant after all. No Catholic really expects you to understand them. Nobody is addressing your arguments because it's a waste of time, and off topic.

Your standards are false, your understanding of scripture lacking, and your knowledge of Catholicism is utterly abysmal. There's 2000 years of theology, exegesis and apologia waiting for you to read, but instead your read some ignorant Protestant diatribe and think it has convincing arguments, which you repeat without understanding the underlying issues.

When your "church" denounces divorce, birth control and schism with the same full-throated detestation you reserve for Catholicism, get back to me.

You think you're special, you think you're right. In reality you live in a theological closet under the stairs.

You know, Neander, I've looked in the Bible for where anyone operating under the pseudonym "neander___" is authorized to be a source of biblical interpretation and can't find it. Could you direct me to the chapter and verse?

Jael wasn't, so far as I am aware, Jesus' mother. He didn't do at Jael's request something He was otherwise disinclined to do. Perhaps this looms tiny in your mind, for whatever reasons large things may seem tiny to you. It apparently mattered to Him, though. Know what? I'm going to go with Jesus rather than you.

Oh, and I don't really see the need to get into a detailed argument with someone so plainly wrong - indeed willfully wrongheaded - about the core of the point in question. Moreover, as I said, I doubt God really cares about trivial matters of doctrine and dogma, however large in your - dare I say it? I dare - tiny mind those things may seem.

"Apart from Christ, only Moses and Enoch and Elijah have been received into heaven. Two examples each of the two types of the saved: the dead resurrected, the living (at the end, of whom Paul wrote "we who are alive and remain") translated without seeing death."

I suppose we could argue over Rev. 12 in re this subject, but why bother. Better theologians than I have determined that it concerns Mary. Probably better theologians than you have likely concluded it does not. As you suggest, and wisely, we'll know when we know.

Note, however, that "Queen of Heaven" is a meaningless title, carrying with it no particular perks. Neither do we have an actual record of the coronation ceremony. The title "Mother of Jesus" or "Mother of God," however is real, is historically valid and true, and carries apparently real influence.

You don't note any differences between the Canaanite women and Mary, eh? No differences, say, in timing? Think: "My mission is not yet begun." No differences in how he used the occasion? Think: in the former merely to please His mother, while in the latter to illustrate something to the multitude.

I've commented on it here before; the thing that stands out in my mind about certain, especially newer and smaller, protestant sects, is how many of them spring merely from the mind of one man, reading a particular importance into some obscure or trivial passage, taking it out of context, then weaving an entire, but entirely threadbare, theology from that.

We may account for Neanderserk's anger thus;Every protestant knows deep in his heart, that he is dictating to God who He is and what He may do. He knws, in other words that he is wrong, and wrong on sucha deep and fundamental level that it offends God himself, Who is generally forgiving about these things.Because every Protestant is forced to create Christianity anew, it must almost inevitably become a worship of self, not of God.

So Christ was born to a reincarnate female pagan deity, Neander? Have you condescended to inform God of this? Clearly there was something wrong with His judgment. Why He failed to consult with you beforehand I cannot imagine.

By the way, your theology is particularly unsound, since there is, after all, no fourth person in the Trinity and - see comment above - especially none named any version of "Neander___."

@138, 142. Us Presbyterians are often accused of being cold and frozen (I am talking about the Reformed auld Kirk, not the modern converged monstrosity that is the PCUSA).

However, we are blessed. For the Dead in Christ will rise first.

Neatherwind, I suggest you stop this. Hypercalvinism is as deep an error as HyperThomism or Mariolatry. Calvin stuck to exegesis and kept his systematic theology within classical evangelical ideas -- most of which were expounded first before the Reformation. So should we.

Number of prayers to the dead Stephen, miraculous first Christian martyr, in the New Testament: Zero. Number of prayers in the Bible to Elisha, whose bones literally raised the dead - the only scriptural example of the Catholic saintly relic trope: Zero.

Angels transport prayers, not saints. Jesus intercedes, not men.

Do you pray to the dead? Who among them is more righteous than Abraham? He has answered:

"They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them."

But these books are as far from your hearts as they are absent from your lips and minds.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Because every Protestant is forced to create Christianity anew, it must almost inevitably become a worship of self, not of God.

Up is down, black is white. Quoting is "dictating"; reading is "creating anew". The oral torah preserves the truth; King Josiah reinvents it. Submission to scripture is "worship of self", but submission to men is worship of God. "We have Moses/Peter as our father!"

Thank you for illuminating Jesus' frustration with the chief priests, scribes, elders and Pharisees. You hypocrites! You believe that 2000 years of generational human telephone is a reliable communication medium from 0-2000 AD (but not from 2000-0 BC!), yet you deny the possibility of a faithful single-hop transmission from text to reader.

In Milo's Or MY's latest Milo youtube show he talks about his Jewish mom and how was raised RCC via his dads faith. It is so happy and loving to note lil' Nero said current events send him running to the Lord. Good Boy, quite the villain to untenable suicidal worldviews.

Notice: There are rules to the blog to adhere to, there is some news I'd like to share, if the comment is deleted I will understand.

106 WV has another version of SSI: drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc., its surreal dependence. However, I'm sure there is an aids situation here too.

I left SSI after 60 days, trying to live this stipend of like 600 to 680 USD. to return to an office gig as an actuary. I'm happy yet its sad that I took that job to survive - when the men were probably vying for that work too. I defaulted on a host of medical debt in 2015 and the stigma of the label panic'y does not fly with me. There is a full spectrum of emotions and worldviews, I opted for the best, most stable in accordance to my faith and structured life to exist. I can maintain my minor art label S.I.G. teach ballet/yoga too.

Pray for dad, he begs for death. I just want whatever the Lord and dad wants, an anti feminist losing her earthly lil' lord patriarch is painful, a beautiful father, a wonderful mom died but its ok, the Lord has gone above and beyond for us, lets us never despair. A while ago SB made a good comment on accepting the nursing home matter, that helped me a great deal. But I would spend my health all over again to care for both of them again.

Lastly, moms siblings were beyond baby boomer absurd to the point I was crying but laughing at their pitiful ploys at social dominance.

My obit was not allowed, I was shut out, shunned, moms moron sister who needs that medal of honor took mom off life support despite my POA authority. I was never consulted or helped by moms side with funeral money and the charity was bogus, it gets better, in that the Lord meant it for good but so what if people meant it for my hurt:

Compare, contrast below, no mention of her marriage to dad, me or anything, whether the outlet knows or not, the family of hate pulled this boner however the genxers in the fam detested how the treatment went:

http://www.shorac.com/notices/Janet-Polverini/

http://www.tributes.com/obituary/show/Janet-Ann-Polverini-102483912

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