Saturn/Chiron Aspects

Fears of being in a position of authority, yet wanting to be an authority on something. Feeling that people don’t take you seriously, yet taking yourself very seriously. Having trouble earning respect. Respect is all-important. Extremely rigid and formal behaviors to deflect attention from deep sensitivity. Having a rigid internal voice of authority. Keeping yourself in line. Not needing to be disciplined because you discipline yourself. Keeping yourself on task. Having an internal disciplinarian. Having an internal authority. Internalizing the voice of your father. Purposely avoiding responsibilities and maturation. Putting too much power into the hands of external authorities, or being extremely skeptical of external authorities. Dreading the duties and burdens that positions of authority bring. Dreading the responsibilities that maturity brings. Lessons learned through trusting your own authority. Attitudes to authority that are passed down through members of a family. Lessons learned through examining your attitude toward authority figures in your life. Lack of responsibility or too much responsibility. Lessons learned through taking responsibility for yourself.

Disliking to be questioned about whether or not you are right. Fear of being judged, yet being judgmental of others. Fear of getting it wrong. Feeling that you are always wrong. Trying to heal the incessant negative voice within. Learning how to stop the litany of self-defeating messages that you send yourself. Being your own cruel mistress. Using seriousness as a way to deflect people from probing into your feelings. Taking yourself too seriously as a defense mechanism. Getting defensive about learning and mastery. Having issues with people in a position to teach you something, or having issues with your ability to teach others. Learning problems that are passed down. Wisdom gained through lightening-up. Wisdom gained through not taking yourself so seriously. Wisdom gained through being gentler with yourself when things go wrong. Wisdom gained through developing flexibility. Wisdom gained through easing up on too high standards and expectations for yourself and others. Wisdom gained through accepting limits. Learning to use limits to your advantage.

Perceiving limitations as greater than or less than what they really are. Locked in a self-imposed box. Carrying depression as a wound. Carrying loneliness as a wound. Having depression as a family trait that gets passed down. Being able to deal with depression more easily as you get older. Lessons learned through dealing with depression. Gaining inner wisdom through overcoming habits of self-limitation. Inner wisdom gained through periods of isolation. Sensitivity to those suffering from depression, loneliness or feelings of isolation. Sensitivity to those who feel abandoned.

Father issues. Having an ill, weak or ‘wounded’ father. Seeing your father as a mentor or teacher. Your father is trying to recover from his own wounds. Your father has had to bear some hurt or pain throughout his life. Dad suffered from depression. Dad suffered from fears, inhibition and feelings that he wasn’t good enough. Dad felt that he never lived up to expectations. Your father feels like a failure. Your father is hard on himself. Your father may not be able to get up and dust himself off when he falls. A male legacy of not being good enough. A family pattern of male workaholics. A family pattern of ‘masters’ in a particular field. A pattern of family members who have impossible standards and expectations for themselves. A pattern of family members who feel lonely or isolated. Your father was unable to act as your father for some reason. Having had a strict father. There were rules and regulations to be followed or there was a lack of rules of regulations. Separations from men. Feeling that you had to be your own father because your real father was unable fulfill the role. Trying to heal wounds with your father. Fearing that you will not reach your father’s expectations. Feeling the pain of separation from your father. Inability to mature fully until father issues are resolved.

Fear of not meeting expectations. Purposely failing so people will no longer expect great things of you. Purposely failing to avoid taking responsibility. Being extremely hard on yourself when you don’t reach expectations. Pretending that you don’t care or that it didn’t matter anyway. Overwhelmed by standards and expectations. Extreme sensitivity to failure. Not wanting to disappoint those people whose opinions you respect. Extreme sensitivity to people’s expectations. Learning that there are many failures on the road to success. Failure is part of success. Not letting failure make you fearful of putting yourself out there. Gaining wisdom through overcoming inhibition. Letting time be on your side. Learning to see obstacles and setbacks as part of progress and forward movement. Time heals all wounds. It can take a long time for your wounds to heal.

The key to healing is gentle discipline. The key to healing is resolving issues with your father, step-father or other male authority figures in your life. The key to healing is creating a healthy, flexible routine. The key to healing is getting out of your own way. The key to healing is seeing obstacles as part of your path instead of being in the way of your path. The key to healing is wanting to tackle fascinating problems. The key to healing is letting go of an adherence to rules that no longer apply. Wholeness comes through reconciling inner and outer voices of authority and their influence over your life.

Original Chiron glyph. Click to read more.

Chiron is both a minor planet and a comet. It is located between Saturn and Uranus. Chiron takes about 50 years to make one complete cycle through all the signs of the zodiac. Chiron is in Libra for the shortest amount of time – 1.5 years; and in Aries the longest – about 8 years. Chiron’s symbol resembles a key. Saturn and Chiron form a conjunction approximately every 147 years. Recent conjunctions between Saturn and Chiron occurred in 1672, 1820 and 1966.

Chiron + Planets eBook

Interpretations of astrological pairings between Chiron & the 10 major planets

10 interpretations, including planet pairings with Chiron from the Sun through Pluto. Written in short, fragmented sentences, this eBook embraces a loose, brainstorm-style of writing.

Very hard to live with a person who has this conjunction and won’t do the work.

Patricia Parker

This Retweet came at the Perfect time. I’m living this so hard right now. I’m missing my Dad and feeling like I’ve failed him. I’m frustrated and extremely motivated and driven. U just hit nerves…U rock!

Steve

I have a Venus/Saturn/Chiron conjunction in Pisces in the 6th within 3 1/2 degrees. All this trined my MC in cancer. I’m a healer, an acupuncturist.

Have you been aware of the powerful transiting Venus/Saturn/Chiron configuration over the past month or so?

Armin

What’s the difference between Saturn sextile Chiron and Saturn opposition Chiron? My father has the sextile with Sag Saturn and Aquarius Chiron while I have the opposition with Retrograde Sag Saturn and Gemini Chiron. Both of us have near exact aspects. His is on the 12th degree while mine is on the 29th degree.

Do you know what your father’s relationship with your grandfather was like?

Armin

I don’t know much. From what I understand, my grandfather pushed his three sons to succeed. My father was jealous of his two brothers because they had better jobs. His brothers worked as engineers and some office jobs. He felt he was a disappointment to his father because he worked construction doing labor work his entire life while his brothers did not. He respected him but he wished he would have listened to him more.
His other Saturn aspects include: Moon conjunction Saturn, Jupiter Libra sextile Saturn, Saturn trine Leo Uranus. His Chiron also square his Nodes while his Scorpio Sun sextiles Virgo Pluto.

I had a good relationship with my grandfather. Wish I could say the same with my father. Even though my grandfather passed away when I three, I still remember him vividly. I wish I was raised by him instead of my father.

The conditioning imposed by my biological father corresponds to a number of Saturn/Chiron aspect features that you have pressed here. Before coming to your site here I had started in the Human Design System at Gate 6 in the Solar Plexus Center which known as: “Conflict – The Gate of Friction” with “the law that growth can not exist without friction”. I have that Gate activated with my Design (unconscious) Saturn. I gravitated to this gate because it “generates all three modes of emotional awareness: feelings, moods and sensitivity.” I’m researching this to gain all the insight I can to better support my self-acceptance of my emotional awareness. This Human Design info left me wanting more insight and so I generated and reviewed my Design astrological chart and there I discovered I had Saturn square Chiron as well as Sun opposing Chiron! It seems that I’m on the right trail here however I don’t know what the next step might be. Any suggestions?

Amazing, incredible , awesome, impressive… All father issues mentioned plus “Fears of not meeting expectations. Sensitivity to those suffering from depression. Formal behaviors to deflect attention from deep sensitivity. ” and so on. 3rd house Sag. Saturn and 9th house Chiron opposition with a Pisces Sun. Thank you very much for “lightening-up”.

i have an opposition, almost everything is true for me.. but i think the reason for that too is the fact that saturn is in my 4th house (cap), and chiron in my 10th (cancer). Plus the north node in the 4th. For this placement, the lesson would be to take responsibility for myself, stop being too rigid and afraid.

M.G

I also have the opposition and everything is true for me, I have Saturn in CAP 10th and chiron in the 4th house, how do you think it would differ?

Nicole

I’m quite new to astrology- starting to look at my transits after feeling a rough pull of confusing forces. I noticed I have transiting Neptune conjunct my natal Saturn, so I looked it up and landed here. I was wondering if this would describe how I’m feeling? Or is this solely a description for in your natal chart?

I actually started crying reading this I relate to it so much, which surprised me as I didn’t see anything indicating this in my birth chart. Everything described here really hits home, especially my younger years. Can anyone shed light on to this? Is this just a transit or an important part somewhere in my chart? I want to know how to handle this energy..

Yes, this description can apply to your transit as well. If you have Neptune in Capricorn, Jupiter in Capricorn, Saturn in Pisces, or a strong Pisces/Capricorn flavor to your chart those would prompt you to relate to this artcile too.

Use the search bar for my article on Saturn/Neptune aspects. It’s written for natal aspects but can apply for transits as well. Where are Chiron and Saturn in your chart.

Nicole

Thanks for your reply! I’m glad to hear it makes sense to apply in my case and I’m not just being an emotional wreck haha. I have Saturn in Pisces and Neptune in Capricorn. Saturn is in the 10th house and Chiron is 5th house Virgo. They’re both conjunct the cusps of the following houses if that is of any importance. I’ve attached a pic of my chart + transits incase I missed anything

Saturn in Pisces and Neptune in Capricorn. Saturn is in the 10th hous
This is why transiting Neptune’s aspect to your natal Saturn is so palpable.

Nicole

Also Pisces is the dominant sign in my chart

Neptunian Placebo

Me: Scorpio Saturn opposite Gemini Rx Chiron (6 deg orb)

I would add the following shadow manifestation of that aspect:

fear of not following rules or going against rules
adhering to rules and regulations that are harmful or unfair
obedience to the fault
slaves of public image and reputation

On the bright side I would say:

creating rules for yourself, not against yourself
understanding that there is nothing wrong with being wrong
understanding that expectations others have of you are for their own benefit, not yours
having expectations of yourself that are solely yours and not borrowed from others
releasing the responsibility to make others glad or happy

Obedience to a fault is good one. Seeking permission is another one. Nice list!

Chijiru .

Some of the people you have listed here who have this aspect is very interesting.
Seeing Justin Beiber’s name and based on what you wrote namely. I don’t think he had the best dad in the world growing up. From what little I know it seems like the roles of father and son are reversed in their relationship.
Makes sense he has this aspect. I do too but, I had an awesome father growing up. Strange.

Did you travel a lot as a kid? I expect you may gain more insight into your Saturn placement when you have your Saturn return, and sooner, when transiting Jupiter forms a grand cross with your natal saturn-jupiter-chiron t-square.

Chijiru .

Thanks for the encouragement. Any wisdom into the self is good.

I did travel. My Father was in the military when I was born so I did do go a few places before my family finally settled back from where they were born. Impressive that you could gleam that. Was it the Sagittarius that gave it away? 😀

I’m quite new to astrology- starting to look at my transits after feeling a rough pull of confusing forces. I noticed I have transiting Neptune conjunct my natal Saturn, so I looked it up and landed here. I was wondering if this would describe how I’m feeling? Or is this solely a description for in your natal chart?

I actually started crying reading this I relate to it so much, which surprised me as I didn’t see anything indicating this in my birth chart. Everything described here really hits home, especially my younger years. Can anyone shed light on to this? Is this just a transit or an important part somewhere in my chart? I want to know how to handle this energy.

Marilyn Perez

Thanks I feel I need to respond to your revealing comprehensive report on Chiron.

I have this asteroid in Capricorn at 0 degrees in my Tenth House conjunct my MC:

Conflict between a need to hold a prominent place in society directed by How an outer authority tells me what’s what??? Further unstabilizing my questionable shaky self-worth. Adding that I have Chiron opposite my moon/ Uranus conjunction at IC in Cancer, which betrays my early childhood rejection by the mother, in part resulting in being the 3rd girl born 15 months after the 2 baby girl. BUT Saturn Square Chiron is the WORST. I can honestly say that I do not think I would be alive now IF Chiron did not ALSO make rather wide squares to my Venus/ Mars conjunction in Pisces in 12th house at 20 degrees. Since Chiron rules the healing principle I’ve sought to heal others while avoiding my own transmutation. Because bodywork is very grounding I live to tell also I’ve been fortunate to reach my Uranus return. (I am 64 years young with the only positive Chiron aspect in my chart being the SEXTILE to my Sun at 28 degrees in Aquarius.

So today September 2015 on the eve of solar eclipse in Virgo 20 degrees exactly opposite my stellium of venus/mars/jupiter (15 degrees) / North Node (19 degrees) in Pisces who is transiting ? But OUR wounded Healer Chiron at 19 degrees Pisces exactly opposite my natal Neptune. No wonder I am meeting you. I feel you’re like The spokesperson and that I am another spoke from this wheel within our chorus of victorious voices de-lighted on this path to uncover this awesome mystery called life on Earth. (And I want to add that along with Neptune in a minor aspect to chiron natally, Pluto at 18 Leo also makes an aspect to Chiron. So I just counted 8 natal aspects (wow). Now 8 is the number of universal flow. Perhaps I’ll try to end here. Peace, Salaam, Shalom.

Thanks, Marilyn. I have a very tight square between my own natal Saturn and Chiron.

Ciprian

By the way, Michelle, I have a Virgo Asc and a Gemini MC as well.

Ciprian

I have Saturn (in Sagittarius) opposition Chiron and this is basically the whole of my inner life in strange, concise, unconnected sentences. I have been an astrologer since adolescence and it still is uncanny to see your most gruelling inner conflicts on paper.

What’s even stranger is when you actually begin to solve them and you realize there is precious little guidance for that transition.

Ludwig Hess Von Buss Strümpell

As an Aries I remember vaguely about all my life until now.

Ludwig Hess Von Buss Strümpell

Saturn semisquare Chiron, just the Jupiter I can not remember all the details that this position had effect on my life.

Gabriel

I have Saturn in Cancer(7th) square Chiron in Aries(4th), also I noticed Chiron at 17 Pisces is currently trining my natal Saturn(18degrees) . I do come from a single mother childhood with a series of boyfriends and ex-husbands serving as unwilling father figures, most of whom basically resented the fact I existed at all. I have in my life most severely internalized the negative, disapproving voice of the inner father/superego, and most of what I read here could very accurately and honestly be applied directly to my personal biography.

Love this site -funny, but only now am I finally trying to understand some of these aspects… I’ve Chiron conjunct Saturn retrograde in Pisces 4th -this is opposite Pluto conjunct Uranus in 10th… This Saturn/Chiron aspect is also trine the Ascendant and Neptune (both Scorpio…) lot going on here!

I also think that the chiron aspects in my chart make my chart complete… and chiron is in gemini in 6th house, aspects with: moon, mercury, venus, uranus, saturn, neptune and midheaven … I read about all aspects with chiron and i`m really amazed, everything make sense to me now…. its like a new level of understanding my self. I also have chiron square lilith…i couldnt find what this aspect means…

Thank you for posting this and for all of your work on Chiron aspects & interpretations. They are extremely helpful to me.

I’ve studied astrology for many years after being lucky enough to grow up in a house full of astrology, tarot, and occult-related books. I started reading Liz Greene as a teenager, and her work changed my life! I could see the truth of astrology at work in life when I began examining the charts of my friends and family. I’ve spent far more time studying the charts of others and of world events/countries then I have looking at my own. I think that is because until now I’ve always felt that something was missing from my own chart, or that I just could not read it correctly as it never made sense to me. The major aspect I have is a tight double grand trine in fire involving my Sun, Moon, and the late 1980s Uranus-Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius. But the overall picture of a rosy childhood and easy gifts gone to waste just does not apply to me and it has been frustrating reading grand trine descriptions at every turn that are not reflective of my own life.
However, I recently decided to examine Chiron’s role in my chart and at last everything makes sense. I have 2 T-squares with Chiron. Saturn-Uranus in my 11th opposes Chiron in Gemini in my 4th, and both square Venus and Mercury conjunct in Pisces in my 1st house. They’re all aspecting each other within a 10 degree orb, but they also group into 2 separate tighter t-squares…Uranus-Mercury-Chiron and Saturn-Venus-Chiron.

With the difficult Chiron aspects included, and their house placements, suddenly my whole chart makes sense. The Chiron 4th house opposition to Saturn in the 11th makes particular sense. I was born into a new age religious group, where my parents also met (11th house). But my father abandoned my mother and I before I was born, refused to support us financially in anyway, and then for many years menaced us from a distance (his bizarre threats of kidnapping were made very real by the fact he had kidnapped my older half-sibling many years before). His cruelty towards us still defies my understanding; he refused to help us even when my mother was fell extremely ill and nearly died before I was a year old. Instead, friends of hers cared for me while she was in the hospital. I also nearly died at birth but he was unmoved by that too. My father himself died when I was a teenager, in a foreign country, before I ever met him. My mother was wonderful, but I grew up very poor and in often challenging circumstances brought about by my father’s absence, lack of support, and unwelcome harassment. Chiron in the 4th house, and in opposition to Saturn, makes such total and utter sense in my life that it blows my mind! His erratic behavior/the new religious group we were a part of (Uranus) and the effect his abandonment had on my early relationships (Venus in the 1st) are also very clear.I definitely feel that in order to make up for my father’s absence and the often difficult/dangerous circumstances my mother and I found ourselves in when I was a child, I internalized a fatherly sense of discipline to compensate for his total absence. –> “Extremely rigid and formal behaviors to deflect attention from deep sensitivity. Having a rigid internal voice of authority. Keeping yourself in line. Not needing to be disciplined because you discipline yourself. Keeping yourself on task. Having an internal disciplinarian. Having an internal authority. Internalizing the voice of your father.” All of that applies to me keenly and describes many of the problems I’ve had with a fear of taking risks and deep anxiety about disappointing others or not obeying the “rules”.I also feel better about my grand trine, and see it as a kind of lucky charm that helped me when I was in dangerous circumstances throughout my childhood.I’m still teasing out how the Mercury-Chiron-Uranus t-square is at play in my chart, but your descriptions have been a revelation and so helpful.Thank you again for this site and for your posts.

“Wisdom gained through lightening-up. Wisdom gained through not taking
yourself so seriously. Wisdom gained through being gentler with yourself
when things go wrong. Wisdom gained through developing flexibility.
Wisdom gained through easing up on too high standards and expectations
for yourself and others. Wisdom gained through accepting limits.
Learning to use limits to your advantage.”This is a.m.a.z.i.n.g. I always have trouble with myself making mistake, I have a hard time accepting that I’m only human and I commit mistakes, but (this year specially) I’m trying to learn to let things go and trying to make more mistakes (not on propous), and it works so well!

It makes too much sense for me, but I don’t have an aspect between these planets by 1°. Maybe it can be considered because saturn is the ruler of my asc, it is conjunct my asc and conjunct my uranus and both of these are opposite chiron. Anyway, it makes perfect sense. Oh, I hate authorities so much and I can’t trust them. I would like to be an authority myself anyway and I also fear becoming one.

I had to reread this post several times, then sit with it before commenting. Even now I’m not sure I’m done processing. Your interpretation is unique, Michelle. And very thought-provoking.

My 4th house Saturn sextiles my 6th house Chiron, and I’ve definitely internalized the voices of both parents, but particularly the voice of my father, only because his voice was much louder and more constant. Everything I did was picked apart, and most of his communications with me were in the form of severe criticisms and put-downs; after a while, what he said didn’t have much meaning because I learned no matter how well I did something (with a few notable exceptions), he still found fault. It was never about me; really, he was yelling at himself. Although I never bought into his manipulations, I did feel sorry because I saw glimpses of how much more he could’ve been. He was heroic at times.

My mother’s criticisms affected me too, only it was her unspoken disappointment in me that affected me the most because I so wanted to please her. “Having an internal disciplinarian.” and “Not needing to be disciplined because you discipline yourself.” pretty much sum it up. I am my own “cruel mistress”. The plus side of all this is that I’m naturally responsible and was always there for my parents as they aged. Towards the end of their lives, both of them pretty much depended on me. I don’t blame them at all for that, even if the responsibilities did overwhelm me at times.

Interestingly, both my parents had their Chiron in Aries, and both had a challenging natal Saturn/Chiron aspect; my mom’s 8th house Chiron was conjunct my 8th house South Node (opposite my natal Venus/NN), and my dad’s was conjunct my 8th house BM Lilith/Sedna and opposite my Sun. My dad internalized a message against knowing his more spiritual, vulnerable side and instead developed a false sense of power gained through physical and intellectual strength. Then when that tactic failed to work, he drank in an attempt to drown out his demons and keep his depression at bay. My mom, on the other hand (who was the only sibling to be raised by her grandmother), internalized the unspoken prohibition in her family against seeing the truth, and frequently used denial and illusion to avoid dealing with the pain of not feeling as if she really mattered – her Chiron opposed her 2nd house Saturn, so she tried hard to “earn” her worth while maintaining her “ideal” family fantasy.

So along with the added responsibilities my placements have brought, I suppose a greater part of my challenge has been to see things as they are and to accept my vulnerabilities without feeling less-than for having them.

Again, the similarities are numerous between us except the internalized disciplinary voice was/is that of my mother backed by my father. They both drank alcohol. Most of the time Dad would not come home until the next morning after he’d been drinking. So my mother would be at home drinking and make me stay up with her while venting her anger. I was not spared her critical put down arrows either. Thank goodness this mostly took place on Fridays and Saturdays.

Again, the similarities are numerous between us except the internalized disciplinary voice was/is that of my mother backed by my father. They both drank alcohol. Most of the time Dad would not come home until the next morning after he’d been drinking. So my mother would be at home drinking and make me stay up with her while venting her anger. I was not spared her critical put down arrows either. Thank goodness this mostly took place on Fridays and Saturdays.

LB

I was also my mom’s confidant and consoler (my Moon/Neptune square again), and she was my father’s angry enabler; she wasn’t much of a drinker though, thank God. My dad usually traveled during the week, so like in your household, it was weekends when things got really tough. One of the worst things my mom used to say to me was “You’re just like your father.” OUCH! It was much easier for her to make me the scapegoat than it was for her to acknowledge the role she played in the mess her life had become.

I don’t know if you feel this way, but as I get older I feel less and less of a child/parent divide. It gets easier to see things from my parents’ point of view and to understand that they’re just people doing the best the can.

LB

As sometimes happens, I found that as we all got older, I began to take on a more parental role with my aging parents. When I was younger, my mom and I would alternate roles – sometimes I’d mother her and sometimes she’d mother me – I know what you mean though, in that it did allow me to see her as a unique individual.

As far as parents (or people in general) doing the best they can – well, sometimes they are and sometimes they’re not. I think it’s pretty easy for people to choose the path of least resistance and then justify their behaviors with a variety of excuses. That’s kind of how our world is set up.

‘…As far as parents (or people in general) doing the best they can – well,
sometimes they are and sometimes they’re not. I think it’s pretty easy
for people to choose the path of least resistance and then justify
their behaviors with a variety of excuses…”

Exactly. As I said earlier there are things that should not be done or said to any child.

Michelle with this post and the Neptune/IC post you have made me realize just how much I don’t know my father from my father, if ya know what I mean. The sad part is that he was in the house and married to my mother until his death in 1998. All that I know is from my mother.

Another thing that’s “ch-ironic” is that I was given a Tarot reading a few months ago that mentioned my Dad was held back in some way which in my mind reinforced a “wounding” of some kind. Oh boy, I just thought of this. Dad (Saturn) talked to me very rarely (Saturn is in front of and pretty tightly conjunct Mercury retrograde and Chiron, all in Pisces). Pallas in Pisces is conjunct as well. I got the impression of a wounding and that I was the reason he could not do what he really wanted to do in life even though he did not communicate this directly to me. I’m sure that’s the Neptune/Pisces influence. There are other things that went on during childhood and after his death that make me feel this way. I also feel like Saturn is representative of my Mom as well because of many of the things listed in this post like :

‘Fears of being in a position of authority,
yet wanting to be an authority on something. Feeling that people don’t
take you seriously, yet taking yourself very seriously. Having trouble
earning respect..Keeping yourself in line. Not needing to be disciplined because you
discipline yourself. Keeping yourself on task. Having an internal
disciplinarian..Fear of getting it wrong. Feeling that you are always wrong. Trying to
heal the incessant negative voice within. Learning how to stop the
litany of self-defeating messages that you send yourself. Being your own
cruel mistress..”

In recent years I’ve realized that the key for me to heal is to deal with these issues. I know I will be reading this one many times over and going back to the previous posts in the Chiron series with a fresh view.

Definitely looking forward to the other posts in this series and the IC/Midheaven series as well.

billow

I read something once about fear of exceeding the father figure. It was talked about in connection with past religious life in service to the Male Heavenly Father thing.

The moody disciplinarian father still flairs up and sends me into a panic around certain personalities. And no he wasn’t big on intimate sharing, so that other thing is the dominant memory from childhood. Even though we had a chance to do some of that healin thang at the end of his life, I still jump sometimes. You are right though about the inner disciplinarian, it’s the strength of his growl, so it can turn into a positive force if I own it for myself. The strength, not so much the growl. It’s a powerful thing, and not to be misused in my book.

And yes, his life wasn’t what he idealized for himself, but it was a pretty darn good life, even though it was fraught with the early death of his mother when he was 14, which cut off his education when he was kept home to work on the farm, which eventually held him back career wise. The deaths of his children really took a toll on him, too. That’s when he broke down and expressed his love, when his children were in pain. I remember when my sister needed surgery. She’s kind of a baby anyway so she was all end of the world about it. He told her he would do it for her if he could. I know he meant it. So it was all in him somewhere, it just came out as anger much of the time. But he was NN Cap, he had a job to do. Too bad about that cancer stellum.

That’s a good point. There could be fears about overshadowing, or surpassing your parents (especially dad).

Sounds like your dad was gentle person inside and the world was forcing him into Capricorn north node role..

billow

He was a dashing young man in mom’s old photo albums. But when I was cleaning out the parents effects as they call them, I found a formal photo (everyone in their sunday-go-to-meeting clothes). He looked adolescent and I couldn’t bear to look at those eyes. A picture tells a thousand words. I gave it to my sister for the archives. I’d rather remember the light in those eyes at the end.

My Dad’s Chiron was in Cancer conjunct Venus with Mars. His NN was Libra.

I was told his mother died when he was young but I don’t know how old he was. He met my mother when she was 11 I think and grew close to her mom a few years after they started dating. My grandmom found out that my Dad was living in a burned out building with little to eat so she made sure he had at least 2 hot meals a day. I don’t know why because no one in his family talked about it, but I think he did it so that his 2 younger siblings and the older siblings would have more. It may have been that his father put him out, I just don’t know. Dad’s oldest sister was responsible for raising them (7 kids) while she was just a teenager I think. What little I do know is that he had a hard life as a kid but did not resort to crime or anything like that.

This makes it hard to understand his behavior towards his me, his only child, with the planets he had in Cancer. But when I look at his Libra NN as you guys have mentioned the NN, it starts to make a bit more sense. Though, it does not help the hurt and anger in my heart because it makes me feel like his relationships were more important than his child. Not one letter while I was in the military…8 years ya’ll and I was in during Desert Storm I, coming quite close to going to Kuwait. I was sent to Turkey/Northern Iraq instead. Not one visit to my apartment after they moved to where I live now. Not one call to see if I was OK or needed anything. I did not realize any of this until right now.

LB

It makes me sad to read this, MsFullroller. Maybe because your dad’s childhood experiences deprived him of some of the basic emotional and physical nurturing that children need, he remained locked in survival mode. In trying to meet his own core emotional needs, he lost sight of how precious and complex you were and instead acted out the same behaviors he received as a child. Maybe he thought providing you with shelter and food was enough, and more than he ever got, which doesn’t justify it or make it any less hurtful.

I hope you can forgive him. After my dad died, I talked to him all the time and often told him how sorry I was that he never got the nurturing and encouragement he really needed as a child – I thanked him for what he was able to give and forgave him for what he wasn’t, without denying the harm it caused me at the time. It helped me to heal.

“…Maybe he thought providing you with shelter and food was enough, and more than he ever got..”

For this, I’ve forgiven him for as there were a few moments of nurturing and encouragement. In those moments, I think he may have realized how much I was like him even though I was a girl. However there are other things that were done especially one in particular that I have a hard time forgiving him for. There certain things that should not be done to any child, let alone your own child. The day that incident happened at the age of 13, my childhood ended.

As an older person I should be able to move on from the “minor” infractions and from the most part I have. If nothing else, from that behavior I’ve learned how to make it on my own and for that I’m forever grateful to him.

To add and keep this somewhat on topic, when that unspeakable event happened at 13, Saturn was transiting the 12th just past my Moon and not far from crossing the Ascendant. Pluto was opposing my Sun/Mars conjunction in the 8th, specifically Mars. Neptune was transiting the 4th. It was not in my ability or in my survival interest to deal with that and all the other crap that happened in the 5 years after. So I buried it deep inside as if it never happened…until 28+ years later when Saturn was again in the 12th, and now Pluto transiting the 4th. All of these memories and the newer ones taking place as an adult that I buried as well, started bubbling up like a semi inactive volcano that got active again. No more “putting a lid on it” Pluto says. “Face it because it has driven how you’ve acted and the decisions you made that were not in your best interest in the past”.

LB

I’m so sorry, MsFullroller. Not *for you*, but I do empathize and am sorry it’s a source of unresolved pain. You’re right, there are some things children should never have to deal with. It’s good the lid has come off – maybe you need to allow yourself time to grieve for what it was that you lost.

I still hope you can eventually forgive him – when you forgive, you release yourself.

Thank you LB and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Yes, I’m sure I’ll get to that point where I can completely forgive him because as I learn about myself the pain “grows” smaller and forgiveness grows bigger. I hope that Michelle does not mind but your long comments (takes one to know one right lol ) have been instrumental in this process. One of the many reasons I’m looking forward to the Uranus transit of the 8th and my Chiron return. Watch out 50 cuz here I come, bold, confident and fly!! LOL 😉

LB

“. . . takes one to know one . . .” My comments are still longer than yours. 🙂

That is a mystery as I do not know his birth time. Birth times back then were not recorded on birth certificates for births here. Also It was very rare esp when my maternal grandmother was born if you even got a birth certificate. That’s why no one knows her real birth date.

LB

My dad had Chiron in the 5th, exactly quincunx his 1st house Saturn, which was also conjunct his Sun, Venus, and most likely his Ascendant, all in Scorpio. Chiron also trined his Neptune (in the 9th, conjunct the MC), making it easy for him to escape through alcohol.

But he was also a very strong swimmer and as I said before, heroic, although he never saw himself that way, which was ironic considering how narcissistic he could be. His efforts saved lives when the naval vessel he served on during the Korean War was hit by a passing ship and quickly sank.

It’s a little crazy how early events and relationships can cast such a long shadow over many later years of life, isn’t it? Sometimes I get tired of dredging up all the family stuff by writing about it in these posts, but it’s almost always relevant. By unraveling the past you create a straighter path into the future.

Yes there are. All except for his oldest sister are not in town and I don’t have any contact with them especially after Dad’s passing.

It really is crazy but please don’t get tired of bringing it up because as you said it is relevant. Don’t know about you but it’s been like some of the weeds in my garden. When I first started gardening, I’d wack them off above ground foolishly thinking that I’d gotten rid of them only for them to emerge again above ground when the season is right. To deal with weeds like that, one has to dig them out by the root since the most persistent ones usually have a very long, strong taproot that goes waaay down underground. And you gotta make sure you get out all the root, otherwise here it comes again…certainly not to save the day! lol So, I totally agree that by knowing your past you can have a better future and really feel that it’s imperative for me. Dad’s Sun conjuncts my Taurus NN by 2 degrees, his Mercury by 13 minutes and his Uranus by 4 degrees. My progressed Sun is within 11 minutes of exact conjunction of my NN.

I’m also seeing how this has/is playing out in my relationships with others and my relationship to self. Again the signifying the importance of not knowing one’s past makes one doomed to repeat it…especially the bad stuff.

I hear ya! I too am ready to move forward but I’m tired of doing the 2 step forward, 10 steps backward dance because of actions taken that were based on not knowing who the heck I am. If that makes any sense. To put it another way, I’ve already made the same mistakes twice and I’m sick of going to summer school. lol

I feel like I’m entering a bit of an identity crisis phase; it’s right on time too with Uranus getting ready to conjunct my planets in Aries and Pluto ready to square them. I’m a bit lost right now, not being in a relationship for the first time in over a decade, but I feel excited to look forward rather than looking backward.

I learned a new phrase at school last week. Self concept. I didn’t know I was supposed to have one. I think the textbook suggestion has persuading me into building one. Is that appropo for a 1st house saturn?

Self-concept … I’m going to be working on mine, actually, I am working on mine.

billow

Golly, those gen ed classses aren’t a complete waste of time. ; )

I’m getting better at shooing off those that self negate me. The trip back through bio unit land was a nightmare. It goes back to being less so they could feel like they were more. Who am I to argue with the depraved morally superior ones. I would hate to become that rigid and fragile.

Redefining the path you’re going to pursue for the next 28 years till Saturn crosses your ascendant again.

billow

Thanks you two for the nod on 1st house saturn. I think I can work with this. I’ve travelled many avenues, fought many battles, and taken countless flights of fantasy. But underneath it all (saturn in scorpio), I’m still the same person. Like I said I can work with this understanding. Much thanks.

mary beth

wow. for me and for so many i know, wow. quite telling for what i would imagine is a very large group of people. as usual, a profound posting.

Thank you for commenting, mary beth. Is there anything in particular that stuck out for you?

mary beth

it seemed to me as i read through the phrases, paragraph by paragraph, that it defined the mentality of at least 2 generations of americans and at least 1 if not 2 generations of western europeans. i have lived abroad in what is now eastern europe for quite some time and over the course of the last decade, they too seem to be percolating into the behaviours & attitudes that these mindsets can cause.

it just struck me that these aspects have been sweeping across the planet, across people groups, and some but not too many will find relief through the current movements of uranus and pluto. i think the affects of the saturn/chiron aspects are still building into the conscious mind of societies, assisted by harsh realities on the ground. these are deeply rooted symptoms and will seem by so many to be impossible to ‘fix’.

i wish i could articulate my thoughts better – its a HUGE subject, in my opinion.

David5379

“For a long time it had seemed to me that life was about to begin-real life. But there was always some obstacle in the way, something to be gotten through first, some unfinished business, time still to be served, a debt to be paid. Then life would begin. At last it dawned on me that these obstacles were my life.”
Alfred D’Souzai dunno if this guy has a saturn chiron aspect, but the quote is fitting