Anyhow, this seems to have gotten way off topic. Lets try and return it to the breathless emergency Bob Stout hope to create in the first place when he started this thread. I’ll save you the trip back so many pages when this thread was created in July of 2011 when Bob Stout posted:

“The gun season IS going to be sharing their 9 days with recurve bows, long bows, compound bows and crossbows very soon unless you do something (other than vote) right now! Call your legislators and get this whole mess turned around. Tell them NO archery equipment during any gun season, period. “

Fast forward to the results of the 2011 gun deer season as described in the latest issue of Wisconsin Outdoor News where they print”

“This was the first year that archers could hunt during the nine-day gun deer season outside the CWD zone (Retch Sweeny note, yes bowhunting during the 9 day gun season has been going on in the CWD zone for some time but most never even noticed it)

Based on reports by conservation wardens, it does not appear that many people hunted deer with a bow and arrow during the 9 day gun deer season.”

Well no kidding!! It was not expected to be this great emergency Bob Stout hoped to gin up which makes me wonder why all the hype in the first place. I suppose a few guys in the Southern part of the state where more firearms restriction are in place, opted for their bow to gain access to lands not open to gun deer hunting but beyond that, this all seems to have been a great big YAWN.

Now that its been returned to its original intent, lets see how long this thread actually stay on topic. I give it less than 4 posts and it will be about me or WBH or evil back room corruption or some other tangent.

Also, since for some unknown reason, Bob Stout had the desire to try and convince folks that the change that keeps the bow season open during the 9 day gun season was because of WBH or at the advice or motivation or action of WBH (since he really really likes to bash WBH) I explained this earlier but since we are actually getting back on topic (for as long as it lasts) It worth mentioning again. WBH was in no way behind this change.

This change started as a citizen resolution via the CC and came back year after year. The congress (more accurately a certain leader within the congress) pushed for this. My comments alone will not satisfy some here so I have provided a link to the CC minutes where you will read this: on page 3:

”NRB response to WCC request to open the archery season during the 9 – day gun hunt.

Al Phelan discussed noting this request passed through the Congress process three times. Ed Harvey asked the Board to put on this springs questionnaire. The DNR Board voted 4 to 3 against putting on the questionnaire. It was pointed out the DNR Department did support this Congress request. A committee discussion was held on various ways to address this issue A motion was made by Rob Bohmann & second by Marlin Laidlaw to send back to the Department’s Rules Committee & also to introduce from the floor on Saturday of this year’s Annual Convention in May 2010. Motion passed unanimously.”

Last spring, the DNR again made the recommendation to the NRB (endorsed by the CC) to allow archery hunting to remain open during the gun deer season and that is what ended up becoming the law. After that passage, Bob Stout began to falsely accuse "Bowhunters" or the WBH for pushing this change.

Bob Stout’s assertion that bowhunters are somehow screwing gun hunters is without merit but I think Bob Stout knew all this even before he started this thread but saw an opportunity to create a divide between bowhunters and gun hunters (even if its based on a lie he created)

retch sweeny wrote:Anyhow, this seems to have gotten way off topic. Lets try and return it to the breathless emergency Bob Stout hope to create in the first place when he started this thread. I’ll save you the trip back so many pages when this thread was created in July of 2011 when Bob Stout posted:

“The gun season IS going to be sharing their 9 days with recurve bows, long bows, compound bows and crossbows very soon unless you do something (other than vote) right now! Call your legislators and get this whole mess turned around. Tell them NO archery equipment during any gun season, period. “

Fast forward to the results of the 2011 gun deer season as described in the latest issue of Wisconsin Outdoor News where they print”

“This was the first year that archers could hunt during the nine-day gun deer season outside the CWD zone (Retch Sweeny note, yes bowhunting during the 9 day gun season has been going on in the CWD zone for some time but most never even noticed it)

Based on reports by conservation wardens, it does not appear that many people hunted deer with a bow and arrow during the 9 day gun deer season.”

Well no kidding!! It was not expected to be this great emergency Bob Stout hoped to gin up which makes me wonder why all the hype in the first place. I suppose a few guys in the Southern part of the state where more firearms restriction are in place, opted for their bow to gain access to lands not open to gun deer hunting but beyond that, this all seems to have been a great big YAWN.

Now that its been returned to its original intent, lets see how long this thread actually stay on topic. I give it less than 4 posts and it will be about me or WBH or evil back room corruption or some other tangent.

Ready, set…………………………………………… Go!

Really Retch, a reset button? Did someone drop off an EASY BUTTON for you? Bob Stout does have an emergancy on his hands, it's just not the one he thinks it is. After the ruling goes into effect, crossbows can be used by all, but restricted to deer gun only (where it clearly does not belong) . I know you're a pureist, longbows only. And you like this plan, so it got me to woundering why. I don't know why you hate crossbows so much, perhaps you were bitten by a wild crossbow as a child? Maybe lost a family house pet to a pack of wild crossbows and swore vengance? What's next? Compounds? That will be a hard fight, there are a LOT more compound users than crossbows. I think it"s is too late for the crossbowmen already, because once this new puling goes through, crossbows are basiclly screwed. Think of this as cars: you have domestic cars/bows, musclecars/ crossbows, and dragsters/ long guns. By pushing muscle cars to the dragstrip only, they can't compete with what is already there, (dragsters/long guns) and the deer will be pressured and running makeing for bad shots, and few of them. Only the hardcore crossbow nuts will continue useing them, sales will drop off, and crossbows may disapear completely from WI, all from being pushed into a season where it does not belong. I know you're wound too tight about crossbows, I don't know why, but you showed me one that could shoot 100yds with percission, though it cost, what... 1500 buck? That is not what most guys hunt with, Hell, that is about 3 times what a Ten Point cost, and they are pricey. But back to cars, you don't by a porche to sit in the driveway, and if the only way you can use it is poorly at the track, you don't buy in at all. This bill says everyone can use one, but makes it very hard to use it properly and humanely, And if you're happy with this bill, it's because it will kill off crossbows in WI. And IMO, that is really your goal.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

kellory wrote: Really Retch, a reset button? Did someone drop off an EASY BUTTON for you? Bob Stout does have an emergancy on his hands, it's just not the one he thinks it is. After the ruling goes into effect, crossbows can be used by all, but restricted to deer gun only (where it clearly does not belong) .

Then clearly you have not been paying attention. Right now in WI, NOBODY (except by virtue of age or disability) in WI can hunt bear, turkey, small game, predators, etc with a crossbow. When this law passes, every many woman and child starting at age ten (both residents and non residents) will be able to use a crossbow to hunt all these species. Today, Only the elderly and handicapped can use a crossbow in WI for these species. When the bill passes, everybody can use a crossbow to hunt every one of Wisconsin’s huntable species. Do you think that’s a bad thing?

Currently all those species I mentioned could be hunted with a variety of gun and a bow and arrow but not a crossbow. This bill corrects that error by allowing all weapons from greater to lesser to be used. It was unfortunate that bear could be hunted with a superior weapon such as a high powered rifle all the way down to a lesser weapon like a long bow but not a crossbow. Allowing a range of weapons from greater to lesser is already allowed but not all weapons. If I can use the least of all weapons like my longbow, a greater weapon such as a crossbow should be allowed especially if an even greater weapon such as a firearm can also be used.

kellory wrote: I know you're a pureist, longbows only. And you like this plan, so it got me to woundering why. I don't know why you hate crossbows so much.

Then clearly you have not been paying attention. I hunt with a long bow, recurve and a compound. I am also a crossbow owner and have been for nearly 30 year. In that time I have bought 3 crossbows (the last two are Hortons) I have been shooting crossbows for longer than many WI hunters have been hunting (perhaps longer than you have been using one and even longer than my buddy Bob Stout). I have set lose more bolts than perhaps 99.9% of WI residents. My father hunts with a crossbow. I do his bolt building and crossbow sighting and modifying and improving and tweaking. He and I hunt together regularly with his crossbow. I have done a great deal of experimenting with crossbow of many brands. I recall a blog I once maintained on the old buckmasters forum. I did an evaluation of a Horton Crossbow back in 2005. The blog is not there anymore, now that they switched to the new forum but the photos are still in my photobucket account.

I am what you might call fluent in crossbows. I know very well what they can do. I also know what they will be capable of because I have done it. I have pushed their limits and know what can do. I follow the market and the trends. Its what I do. While they are thousands of years old, they are still in their infancy in terms of a modern weapon under todays engineers. The last decade should be proof of that.

This bill is the biggest expansion of crossbow usage in the history of the state. Animals that were never allowed to be hunted with a crossbow will now be available to every person. Deer, bear, turkey, small game, predators, eventually elk, etc, in WI will now be able to be hunted with a crossbow without restriction to just the elderly and handicapped. I support that and I support the expansion of crossbows in WI this bill offers. A guy that hates crossbows could not say such a thing and would not have 3 decades of crossbow usage under his belt.

Oh, I have been paying attention Retch, to what you say, and what you do. You have mentioned that you have been known to draw a compound a time or two, but you don't seem very happy with the idea, And I know quite well about your crossbow useage, we have discussed it before when you tried to educate me as to the evils of crossbows, how they were too advanced, too fast, reach too far. Yes, Retch, I have been paying attention. This bill will look good because it widens the base of who can use a crossbow, but restricts it where it matters most, hunting deer! Yes a few wrongs do get righted by allowing everyone to use it as they would use a bow. It is a bow! But you seem to forget where you are. This is a DEER AND DEER FORUM! How could I have any other focas concerning this weapon other than how it will be used for deer? You are telling me , you will be able to hunt BEARS properly and humanely by stealth and no pressure, but not for a deer? The best shot you are likely to get will be running and mid range to long range at best. You are talking about a pressured, very, very, alert whitetail deer. Can it be done? Yes, if you are very good, as diehard bow fans do during gun season. But it will make it a lot harder to do, with a higher loss rate, and guys takeing any shot they have because it's the only one they get. I believe this ruleing will likely kill off crossbow use in WI. You don't buy a porche, to sit in the driveway.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

Now every person will be able to use a crossbow for every species even deer. My guess is that tomorrow at high noon, there will be a showdown at the OK corral at the capitol as this bill is heard, I and others in the white hats will be taking on those in the black hats to see where the bill goes. Perhaps Bob Stout will be there. I will save him a seat and share my bag lunch with him as this bill is dicussed.