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The ability of AIP was demonstrated in 2005, when HMS Gotland, a Swedish AIP submarine, “sank” many U.S. nuclear fast-attack subs, destroyers, frigates, cruisers, and even the USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) aircraft carrier in joint exercises.11

Austin wrote:Another thing is it is not a good idea to add AIP post submarine construction as they will have to cut the submarine and insert an AIP module which is a big task in itself and adding additional module impact the Submarine acoustic capability and speed because additional few meter plug would come with its own complication. (flow noise , quitening ,drag )

Agree on this. Is there a precedent of a plug like this added on a working vessel?

Replacing lead acid battery with Li ion should give some good endurance boost. Sindhurakshak could have been used as a test bed to work out the proof of concept.

Ofcourse they can add that if they qualify DRDO AIP for Sub Based deployment after due testing.

But adding any module post construction is not a good idea because it has impact on submarine performance , An more practical and easier approach would have been to use the proven French MESMA AIP and built a sub with scratch around that AIP that way they can consider this from design stage and optimise the design for the sub rather than be an after thought.

I think the IN evaluated the MESMA AIP and did not find it too its liking, from day 1 the Scorpenes were planned for AIP, it has taken DRDO longer than expected. The last 3 IN boats were given a separate class since it was expected the Fuel cell based AIP would have been ready before they were launched. So can't say this is an afterthought.

Porkistani agosta's mesma system came cropper, Nausena evaluation of MESMA also failed to impress, at the most it'd have been a decorative piece. Our own research will better as it's done according to our needs. French have no need to make mesma sophisticated as they only operate nuke submarines.

The French MESMA (Module d’Energie Sous-Marine Autonome / Autonomous Submarine Energy Module ) is the only such system available and it makes use of ethanol and oxygen as energy sources. The combustion of ethanol and oxygen under high pressure is used to generate steam. The steam generated is the working fluid and is used to run the turbine. The high pressure combustion allows the exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled outside into the sea at any depth without making use of a compressor.The advantage of MESMA is it’s higher power output when compared to the alternatives which allows higher underwater speeds but it’s major drawback is it’s lower efficiency. Also the rate of oxygen consumption is said to be very high and these systems are very complex. These drawbacks make several navies opt for sterling cycle and fuel cell alternatives.

Fuel cells are the most advanced and preferred AIP technology today. This is because of the major advantages they offer in stealthiness and power generation. They contribute to the stealthiness of the sub as Fuel Cells have almost no moving parts, which significantly reduces the acoustic signature of the sub. Fuel Cells can achieve an efficiency of over 80% under certain circumstances. They can also be scaled easily into large or small sizes depending on the displacement of the submarine. This is easier than developing different systems for each submarine class. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are also very environment friendly as they generate no exhaust fumes, which in turn eliminates the need to have special exhaust scrubbing and disposal machinery. The only drawback is that they are expensive and complex.

This completly makes sense, Navy and DRDO are working on something which is really cutting edge hence obviously there would have been unforseen challenges, looks like we are over the major hurdles and we are onto something good here.

Looks like Navy/ DRDO went for fuel amoung advantages it can be scaled up for Project 75 and also reasonably quickly.

Other than Fuel Cells, the 3 remaining technologies have a lot of moving parts which generate noise. This is not desirable as quietness is very essential for all submarines. So by using Stirling, MESMA and CCD AIP systems, submarines will be sacrificing some of their stealthiness for additional endurance.Even though Fuel Cell AIP has many advantages, it is extremely expensive to procure and maintain them.Submarines which use AIP need to sail at speeds of less than 10 kts in order to achieve exceptional endurance of 14-18 days as advertised. In comparison, a nuclear powered sub can travel for an unlimited distance at 30-35 kts without sacrificing endurance. So AIP equipped submarines cannot replace nuclear submarines when it comes to blue water or extended period operations.

But given our Arabian Sea shelf depth and unlike USA/USSR which dont have defend home bases, we probably need a green water Navy component, so we need SSP/SSN combo and can't go for pure SSN force.

And FInally this scenario I really like, No one will venture from Karachi and Gwadar with the PN Surface and underwater fleet sunk

he advantage offered by increased underwater endurance can be used for ‘ambushing’ an approaching fleet. In one such scenario, an AIP equipped submarine can roam near a strait, waiting for its target to approach. The sub will be running at ultra-quiet speeds of 2-4 knots for several weeks and then attack the target when it appears, using its torpedoes. Even though a non-AIP equipped sub can do the same thing, it’s waiting period, which is very essential for an underwater ambush, is significantly lesser.

In another scenario, an AIP equipped sub can roam near enemy territory for far longer compared to a non-AIP sub. Thus in this situation where intelligence is gathered and spy missions are performed, AIP gives these quiet diesel subs an advantage by allowing them to loiter for weeks without the need to surface.

What we also need are long endurance UUVs some which could have limited armament.These are perfect for sanitising the chokepoints and guarding approaches to major naval bases and ports.They would relieve manned subs from such mindane tasks enabling them to perform more offensive missions in far- off waters.

However, even the best AIP sub cannot compare with the performance of a nuclear sub which apart from greater UW endurance and speed, carries greater weaponry, decoys, etc.The lease of a second Akula announced a year ago was good news, but given the needs of the day, the lease of 2 more Akulas would give us a total of 4, which can arrive by 2025+ , of which two would be available at any time of crisis.These SSGNs would be the perfect complement to our desi- built 6 SSNs which going by the Arihant experience will when the first arrives hopefully in the middle of the next decade, be built at the rate of one every 18 to 24 months . 10 SSGN/SSNs would be ideal as the SSNs would have extra duties to protect our SSBNs when required.

What the IN must not succumb to is to try and design/ acquire a large expensive conventional boat which is the equivalent of a " pretender" to a nuclear boat which Oz is trying to do with the French. A former admiral said that the only true AIP sub was a nuclear powered boat. We also need given the huge numbers of PLAN subs in service and being built- as well as 8 AIP Yuans for Pak, large numbers of cost- effective conv. boats like our existing very silent Kilo class, built quickly at low cost with a v.high capability that even today armed with Klub/ Kalibir missiles seen in action in Syria, are giving western navies nightmares.Kalibir equipped boats with a 2500km range could also in a crisis carry N- tipped warheads, complicating the task of our enemies in locating our second- strike strategic deterrent.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 13377?s=21 —> Qatari Navy has signed an MoU with their Indian counterparts to allow Indian Navy veterans to join their ranks. Indian navy is likely to sign more such MoUs with other friendly nations in order to strengthen their naval and maritime security set up.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 13377?s=21 —> Qatari Navy has signed an MoU with their Indian counterparts to allow Indian Navy veterans to join their ranks. Indian navy is likely to sign more such MoUs with other friendly nations in order to strengthen their naval and maritime security set up.

When Qatari Jihadi journalists employed in Al Jazeera remain the #1 source of anti India propaganda today, closely followed by BBC.. I cant say I like this move.

^^Isn't RM recently went to Russia to fix contract for Alexandrit class MCMVs? I do not remember the exact number but it should be 6 or more with ToT to make more of them. Also coming are USVs and UUVs to make it a whole package.

The arrival of the British warship HMS Defender has given the Indian Navy a chance to study the Royal Navy’s type 45 destroyer up close, especially the integrated electric propulsion system. A team of naval engineers from the Indian Navy visited the vessel and sat with British naval officers to study the propulsion system, crew berthing for women and combat systems. According to senior officials from the two navies, at least 15 officers from the Indian Navy visited the HMS Defender that is currently moored at Mormugao Port Trust. The officers also interacted with officials from the foreign defence manufacturers who we re present on the vessel.

“HMS defender is propelled by an integrated electric propulsion system. I understand that the Indian Navy is also looking at the technology. So today we have marine engineers from the Indian Navy and the Royal Navy working collaboratively to understand how this system works,” commanding officer of HMS Defender Commander Richard Hewitt said.

The Indian Navy is seriously looking at electric propulsion for its future warships, especially future aircraft carriers. The Indian naval fleet largely depends on steam turbine, diesel or gas turbine propulsion with the engines physically connected to the drive systems. “In the HMS Defender, which has an integrated electric propulsion, the ship acts as a power station and is not installed at the same level and near the gear box and the propeller. This system saves space, is easier to upgrade and is flexible, which is why the Indian Navy is looking to adopt this into upcoming platforms,” said Tharun Koshy, an industry specialist with General Electric (GE) who was present for the interaction.

While the HMS Defender has taken a break from its deployment in the strait of Hormuz, the ship’s visit to Goa was a move to showcase the destroyer’s propulsion and power technology, ship design, and combat systems to Indian Naval officers and Indian defence industry specialists. Speaking to reporters, Hewitt said that UK has a world class industrial base that can compete globally in defence manufacturing.

“HMS Defender uses integrated electric propulsion, a propulsion technology which the Indian Navy is considering for its vessels. Discussions can then be had between India’s specialists and the UK’s teams who are actually using the technology,” another senior official said.

souravB wrote:^^Isn't RM recently went to Russia to fix contract for Alexandrit class MCMVs? I do not remember the exact number but it should be 6 or more with ToT to make more of them. Also coming are USVs and UUVs to make it a whole package.

https://twitter.com/indiandefencera/sta ... 13377?s=21 —> Qatari Navy has signed an MoU with their Indian counterparts to allow Indian Navy veterans to join their ranks. Indian navy is likely to sign more such MoUs with other friendly nations in order to strengthen their naval and maritime security set up.

During my time, many middle eastern airforces used to have serving PAF Pilots and ex-IAF ground engineers in the same squadron. Had spent a vacation at Saudi Arabia with one such ex-colleague.

This allows the PAF to keep a large bench of proficient pilots with flight hours on the latest types. In India we dont look beyond rozgaar yojana.

And Indian ex-armymen are the largest number of "contractors" in Iraq & elsewhere. Outside MARCOS training centers, head hunters in hotel rooms wait to recruit them for protecting middle east oil rigs. There are many kids joining the Navy to get training and experience as clearance divers and MARCOS and leave at the first opportunity. Those with 5-7 years experience are preferred. Indians work for relatively lower salary and are highly disciplined.

The signing bonus includes training costs charged by the Indian Navy when an officer/sailor leaves early.

souravB wrote:^^Isn't RM recently went to Russia to fix contract for Alexandrit class MCMVs? I do not remember the exact number but it should be 6 or more with ToT to make more of them. Also coming are USVs and UUVs to make it a whole package.

I will celebrate (lungi dance) when they sign the deal.

Careful Admiral. Now if a deal does get signed, in addition to the usual demand of the promised 10000 tonnes of mithai, people will start demanding a video of your dance as well

souravB wrote:^^Isn't RM recently went to Russia to fix contract for Alexandrit class MCMVs? I do not remember the exact number but it should be 6 or more with ToT to make more of them. Also coming are USVs and UUVs to make it a whole package.

Russia has offered India to build a series of composite Alexandrit-E-class minesweepers ships at an Indian shipyard with the subsequent transfer of technology, Russia’s state arms seller Rosoboronexport told TASS on Friday, November 8, 2019.

TASS Russian press agency website reported that Russia had made its offer at a session of the Russian-Indian inter-governmental commission for military cooperation on November 6. Twelve new-generation minesweepers can be built to replace the Indian Navy’s Pondicherry-class ships. The Alexandrit-E minesweepers are intended to be constructed at a shipyard of India’s Goa Shipyard Limited.

The Aleksandrit class, Russian designation Project 12700 Alexandrit (Chrysoberyl), is the newest class of Russian minesweepers designed by Almaz and being built by the Sredne-Nevsky Shipyard for the Russian Navy. The first ship was laid down on 22 September 2011 and was launched in June 2014. A total of 40 ships are planned to be build for Russian Navy.

The minesweepers can employ various sweeps, as well as remotely controlled and autonomous underwater drones. The minesweepers of this Project displace about 800 tonnes, are 62 meters long, have a crew of 44 men and an operating range of 1,500 miles.

The main feature of Aleksandrit class project 12700 is a monolithic fibreglass hull shaped by vacuum infusion, a modern construction method which results in a lighter hull with a longer service life. The ships of the class are designed to use various flails, as well as tele-guided and autonomous unmanned underwater vehicles and unmanned surface vehicles to disable or destroy mines at safe distances.

The French MESMA (Module d’Energie Sous-Marine Autonome / Autonomous Submarine Energy Module ) is the only such system available and it makes use of ethanol and oxygen as energy sources. The combustion of ethanol and oxygen under high pressure is used to generate steam. The steam generated is the working fluid and is used to run the turbine. The high pressure combustion allows the exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled outside into the sea at any depth without making use of a compressor.The advantage of MESMA is it’s higher power output when compared to the alternatives which allows higher underwater speeds but it’s major drawback is it’s lower efficiency. Also the rate of oxygen consumption is said to be very high and these systems are very complex. These drawbacks make several navies opt for sterling cycle and fuel cell alternatives.

Fuel cells are the most advanced and preferred AIP technology today. This is because of the major advantages they offer in stealthiness and power generation. They contribute to the stealthiness of the sub as Fuel Cells have almost no moving parts, which significantly reduces the acoustic signature of the sub. Fuel Cells can achieve an efficiency of over 80% under certain circumstances. They can also be scaled easily into large or small sizes depending on the displacement of the submarine. This is easier than developing different systems for each submarine class. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are also very environment friendly as they generate no exhaust fumes, which in turn eliminates the need to have special exhaust scrubbing and disposal machinery. The only drawback is that they are expensive and complex.

This completly makes sense, Navy and DRDO are working on something which is really cutting edge hence obviously there would have been unforseen challenges, looks like we are over the major hurdles and we are onto something good here.

Looks like Navy/ DRDO went for fuel amoung advantages it can be scaled up for Project 75 and also reasonably quickly.

Other than Fuel Cells, the 3 remaining technologies have a lot of moving parts which generate noise. This is not desirable as quietness is very essential for all submarines. So by using Stirling, MESMA and CCD AIP systems, submarines will be sacrificing some of their stealthiness for additional endurance.Even though Fuel Cell AIP has many advantages, it is extremely expensive to procure and maintain them.Submarines which use AIP need to sail at speeds of less than 10 kts in order to achieve exceptional endurance of 14-18 days as advertised. In comparison, a nuclear powered sub can travel for an unlimited distance at 30-35 kts without sacrificing endurance. So AIP equipped submarines cannot replace nuclear submarines when it comes to blue water or extended period operations.

But given our Arabian Sea shelf depth and unlike USA/USSR which dont have defend home bases, we probably need a green water Navy component, so we need SSP/SSN combo and can't go for pure SSN force.

Japan is moving from Stirling to Li batteries, the last 2 Soryu a are lithium powered

In order to deepen defence cooperation, Britain has offered an aircraft carrier similar to its biggest warship HMS Queen Elizabeth to India to build the copycat at any Indian shipyard.

British High Commissioner to India Dominic Asquith on Friday said HMS Queen Elizabeth will soon operate in the Indian Ocean region on its maiden voyage, as per the details.

“The relationship between the Royal Navy and Indian Navy presents opportunities for cooperation, ranging from safety to electric propulsion to cooperation on aircraft carriers”, the British High Commissioner told the press here.

Sources indicate that an Indian delegation had already visited Rosyth Dockyard in Scotland, which is where the second Queen Elizabeth aircraft — HMS Prince of Wales — is now being assembled.

Elaborating on the requirement of three aircraft carriers, the Indian Navy chief said with the availability of additional aircraft only the Navy will be able to deploy at least one operational carrier on either seaboard at any given time, “especially in light of the increasing mandate of Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean Region”.

Currently, the Indian Navy has a single aircraft carrier of Russian-origin Vikramaditya and a second aircraft carrier may be commissioned in the next 24 months.

^^ this lollypop has been doing rounds for some time...does QE class offer any advantage over VikA apart from size and may be avoiding design challenges. In the end we will have to still get the aircrafts ..which is F35...this is a non starter for the IN, unless it comes with even bigger lollypop of EMALs or some engine tech which is not on table..

The Trump administration on Tuesday approved sale to India of up to 13 MK 45 naval guns and related equipment worth an estimated cost of $1.0210 billion. The Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale onNovember 19 after the State Department made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to India of the big naval guns and related equipment

Did I read this right? A mark 45 gun costs 73 million dollars. But in this report from last year says the guns cost half- 450 million. So what is the other 500 million for? Training? Ammo? That is still too much. This is costing as much as a Kolkata class destroyer.

the cost per unit comes out to be $76 million per gun..Isnt this quite high or usual DDMitis to suffix few zeros...phillip sir would say we can get a mig 29 for this price...

Generally DSCA shows the rate with all options exercised, actual deal is generally 75-80% of the deal value announced on DSCA. Even for C-17 the DSCA quoted USD 5.7 Billion, our actual deal was at 4.1 Billion.

2 MIG- 35s! However, there is some merit in acquiring a larger naval gun.There has been much ink spent in the previous decades bemoaning the gun-gap situ in the USN , a key element in support of amphib ops. and the US is an expeditionary superpower which will undertake offensive amphib. ops on any continent.

In WW2, the atoll-hopping of the US Pacific marine forces would've been impossible without naval gunfire support from its battleships, cruisers et al. I think the last time we saw US battleships of the WW2 era in action was when the USN New Jersey pounded the shores of Lebanon with its 16" guns. We lost our 6" gun capabilities when the erstwhile Mysore and Delhi passed on to the breaking yard.Our 4.5" guns of the Leander class were the largest we had and they've moved on too.

We do not possess the USN carrier air wings which alternatively can deliver munitions in quantity on the landing grounds and further inland.Our planned 4 amphibs appear to have been sunk not by the enemy but by our very own MOD with nary a squeak in protest from the IN !

However , a few 5" guns moving on from existing 4" ones isn't going to increase our capability very much.Will these guns come with ER munitions? With the advent of rail guns and the PLAN appears to be in pole position to start fielding them, conventional guns would be outgunned in the future once rail guns are perfected and fielded increasingly aboard surface combatants.

Lastly, main guns have become of secondary value in anti-ship surface warfare where long- range missiles reign supreme.We have supersonic Klub and Brahmos already with us.The guns are of value and use in destroying smaller vessels which venture within range and exterminating kamikaze attacks from fast craft. The cost of a shell is also far cheaper than that of even a lowly short- range sub-sonic missile, but in amphibious ops, which commander would send his warships within range of shore- based anti-ship missile batteries? Guns do have anti-air defence value against aircraft and missiles, but against supersonic missiles and hypersonic ones to come?

I welcome the thought though of acquiring larger guns but would instead prefer the IN to acquire the 8" guns aboard the new Zumwalt class of DDGs which supposedly have an 80+nm range with the LRAP projectiles.That would be great for our future larger surface combatants giving main guns much greater reach.

Karthik S wrote:BTW why 13? 7 + 4 should have been 11, are we planning to build 2 more P 15B ?

The remaining two are for training purposes - one at INS Dronacharya (gunnery school) and INS Valsura (electrical school). This is a perfect example of how inducting a new type is far more expensive than just buying them off shelf.

Karthik S wrote:BTW why 13? 7 + 4 should have been 11, are we planning to build 2 more P 15B ?

The remaining two are for training purposes - one at INS Dronacharya (gunnery school) and INS Valsura (electrical school). This is a perfect example of how inducting a new type is far more expensive than just buying them off shelf.

Has that been confirmed? I wonder what guns two vessels built by GSL will have may be Oto 76mm.

Will these guns come with ER munitions?

Mod4 allows it to reach 36km with new projectile no word on whether ERGM will be part of it.

I welcome the thought though of acquiring larger guns but would instead prefer the IN to acquire the 8" guns aboard the new Zumwalt class of DDGs which supposedly have an 80+nm range with the LRAP projectiles.

Why would you want a gun that weights 100 tons (none of IN vessels can carry that) and cannot fire any projectiles (LRAP has been cancelled plans to fit another ammo are up in the air).

Short of open war, a lot of the mundane interdiction at sea takes place within gun range.

Merchantmen are boarded, chinese fishing "trawlers" bristling with multiple non fishery types of antennae are being taken down and what not.

Better to have a versatile and good sized main gun with multiple roles inbuilt. In many developing close quarters situations, it gives you a better standoff range and more control over the threat while keeping own platforms safer.

Missiles will always be carried and they cannot be wished away or replaced in today's scenario.

Short of open war, a lot of the mundane interdiction at sea takes place within gun range.

Merchantmen are boarded, chinese fishing "trawlers" bristling with multiple non fishery types of antennae are being taken down and what not.

Better to have a versatile and good sized main gun with multiple roles inbuilt. In many developing close quarters situations, it gives you a better standoff range and more control over the threat while keeping own platforms safer.

Missiles will always be carried and they cannot be wished away or replaced in today's scenario.

does that need billion-dollar guns bhai ?

Dont think these guns are worth their price unless they come with some niche capability !!.. happy to be corrected

Short of open war, a lot of the mundane interdiction at sea takes place within gun range.

Merchantmen are boarded, chinese fishing "trawlers" bristling with multiple non fishery types of antennae are being taken down and what not.

Better to have a versatile and good sized main gun with multiple roles inbuilt. In many developing close quarters situations, it gives you a better standoff range and more control over the threat while keeping own platforms safer.

Missiles will always be carried and they cannot be wished away or replaced in today's scenario.

does that need billion-dollar guns bhai ?

Dont think these guns are worth their price unless they come with some niche capability !!.. happy to be corrected

It's on offer.

no need to buy (or not buy).

A warship just cannot be without a main gun.

If the present guns are OK for their intended purpose, then somebody has gotten off doing window shopping.

Cybaru wrote:I still don't get whats so special about these that cost 76 million dollars a piece?

IMO I would rather just stick with Oto 76mm or couple 57mm guns for their point defense capability and ability to deal with attacks from fast moving patrol boats (suicide or armed with Anti tank missiles). Even with ERGM large caliber naval guns simply don’t seem practical to me in this age of missiles, rail guns might change that equation.

True, for mundane missions against pirate bumboats our current main guns ( Otomelara, Russian) of calibre 100mm and below , including the 30mm gatlings are quite sufficient.They have the range and lethality. Upping the size by a mere 1" isn't going to improve all-round capability worth the price.As I said the 8" guns with LRAP projectiles of the Zumwalt class firing to an 80+ nm range is another matter.