Feds Seize California “Ghost Guns”

“Eight men were charged Thursday with making and distributing dozens of firearms, many of them assault-style weapons illegally equipped with silencers, in what federal officials are calling one of the biggest takedowns in California’s Central Valley,” news.yahoo.com reports. “Undercover agents from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives purchased or seized more than 230 firearms and silencers. Many are known as ‘ghost guns’ because they lack serial numbers and can be sold without background checks or transfer documents.” And now the law enforcement hysteria and anti-gun agitprop . . .

“Firearms trafficking such as that alleged in this indictment is one of the primary sources of crime guns found on the streets, and the manufacture of untraceable, unserialized firearms hampers criminal investigations, putting the public at greater risk,” U.S. Attorney Benjamin Wagner said at a news conference. ‘High-capacity assault rifles, with silencers but without serial numbers, are some of the most lethal weapons that criminals can get their hands on.'”

THIS is the source of illegal guns fueling Golden State gang bangers? The vast majority of criminals use handguns when committing a firearms-related crime. And California cops depend on firearms tracing to lower “gun violence” like Jessica Ashley depends on her English degree to make a living. And everyone knows unserialized guns are WAY more lethal than serialized firearms. [/sarc]

Wagner said the group ramped up its manufacture of the weapons after undercover agents first contacted them in February. Handguns were also purchased or seized. Wagner said he can’t recall as many guns being seized in one operation in his 20 years as a federal prosecutor.

You are correct. California bans silencers, SBRs and to a certain extent, automatic weapons. However, the local US AG is on the “ghost gun” bandwagon” and has been pushing for a re-introduction of the Senator De Leon “ghost gun” ban bill. AFAIK, a ghost gun has been used in only one crime, the famous bank robbery and miles long shootout in Stockton that ended up killing a hostage. The ATF was also responsible for shutting down “build parties,” where people with 80% blank receivers would gather at a place owning a CNC mill to complete their lowers. It seems to me that, at least in California, the feds have launched a program to discourage home-made weapons production.

Mark N, there was also the Santa Monica college shooting. The guy used an AR15, with a homebuilt receiver, to kill his family, shoot up a bus, and then shoot some folks at a college. I don’t know if he used it, but he also had a black powder revolver. So there’s two high profile ones. But the fact that they’re using those in California is because they can’t get the guns through other means, which only shows that the illegal gun market is as fluid as any financial market and bans don’t accomplish anything because they’ll find a way to get what they want.

I can see it now The next Call of Duty game will have a “Ghost Gun” damage increasing mode that allows your Rifle to remove its serial number for maximum damage and it will make it harder to find you. These dumb asses learn firearms technology from their kids. The ATF has some good people but a great majority are clueless, I have seen cases where they had to call for someone to come in from the field office just to clear an AR because they were clueless about how to do it, even though they had to fire them as a part of their training. Its disgraceful that they are supposed to be Subject Matter experts and are so clueless. They are such a joke and firearms are the only hobby that isnt policed by people who take part in the hobby. If you want to regulate aircraft you hire pilots, to regulate Radio traffic, you hire HAM radio operators, evidently to regulate firearms, you hire the dumbest bastards you can find who have no moral compass.

I think this was a case of entrapment. The ATF probably kept making them bigger and better offers and giving them more and more good reasons to make the guns until they finally said they’d do it.

One guy got arrested for supplying a drill press, and the prosecutor connected this to drug trafficking because three people were busted for what’s most likely possession. “Oh, so you have some pot huh? You must be working for the cartels.”

…and that begs the question of whether or not being a whore should be illegal. Not to speak to the entrapment thing, but being a whore shouldn’t be illegal and neither should silencers, sbrs, and making/selling guns from your garage without an FFL.

That’s an old ATF trick…calling that a “conspiracy to commit a felony.”

Under federal “conspiracy” law, a person can be charged and convicted of “conspiracy” even if they were unaware that a conspiracy was in the works and never even intended to participate is such a conspiracy.

Conspirator: “Hey, George; can I use your drill press? I’ve got a bunch of holes to drill and my hand drill isn’t working.”

Dupe George: “Sure, Fred; just replace any drill bits you wear out or break.”

Not quite they have to prove that the manufacturing was with intent to sell. If you make an 80% lower, use it for a while, then sell it to someone, that’s not a crime as your manufacture was not done with the intent to sell.

Three years ago, purchased .22 bolt action with no serial number. Retailer at gun show still filed 4473. Serial number listed as none. We both looked at each other ala “what’s the use of this “.
Last year , sold rifle, no paperwork.

It’s not illegal to sell a homemade gun. It IS illegal to manufacture a firearm with intent to sell, unless you have an FFL. The intent is the essence of the crime. If you manufactured a firearm for your own personal use, and then later decided you didn’t want it anymore and sold it you’d be legally A-OK (at least as far as federal legislation is concerned). If instead you manufactured a firearm for the express purpose of selling it to another individual, then you’d be breaking the law. Both cases involve essentially the same actions, manufacturing a firearm, then selling it, but one is legal, the other is illegal. Most people don’t want to bother with explaining the distinction, so they just throw their hands up and say they’re both illegal.

How is that, Mr. US Attorney? Have you ever actually taken a Logic class in your life? Or, do you know this statement is pure, unadulterated bovine feces and you don’t care if you lie to push your Statist agenda?

I’ve been involved in quite a few criminal investigations, and having / not having a serial number on a gun had never, not once, anything to do with solving the crime.

The ONLY thing a S/N was ever used for in my experience was being able to ‘track’ a given gun as Chain of Evidence is easier to show with serialized items. In court, one could say, “Yes, this is the gun I picked up. See, I wrote the S/N down on this here piece of paper at the time.”

That’s about it.

Never, not once, did we have shooting scene and we stood around saying, “Dayum, if only we had the S/N of the gun that fired these bullets we could solve this thing!”

Where do they come up with this crap, and why do people fall for it? Here’s the answer…the Statist Promise of “We’ll take care of you:”

“putting the public at greater risk,”

And good grief, Mr. Wagner…but you sure did pull out ALL the stupid for this quote:

“High-capacity assault rifles, with silencers but without serial numbers, are some of the most lethal weapons that criminals can get their hands on.”

What, pray tell, makes a rifle’s magazine capacity or noise signature…or a number engraved on the side…more lethal than any other rifle?

Read the article carefully. They claimed they were authorized and billed the government for $1mil+ for $10k worth of stuff. Sounds like fraud to me. However, if it was a legitimate operation they go to jail to keep from exposing the op. That is way this kind of stuff works.

Any other agency I would say yeah these are bad guys, lock them up forever. This is the ATF which has a history of entrapment. For all we know the ATF agents represented themselves as CIA/DOD/Seals/Some Other group looking for untraceable firearms for a covert operation. Let the details come out in court and lets see if the case holds water.

Except that if they represented themselves as working a government covert operation no crime would have been comitted. The government has the legal authority to order and purchase these firearms.

Producing a hobby shop ghost gun is no big deal. The capability and willingness to produce in batch is a sign of either a shop that actually supports covert ops or potentially criminal activity. People who make ghost guns knows that to make large batches of ghost guns puts you on collision course with ATF. They need a good reason to do it.

We really need to get the word out about Common Law and hold bureaucrats’ feet to the Common Law fire. A really good attorney would move the accused person’s case to a Common Law court. After moving the case to a Common Law court, that really good attorney would demand that the prosecutor bring forward the victim to show what harm the accused had committed. Upon being unable to produce any victims, that really good attorney would then move to dismiss the case and an honest judge with integrity would throw out the case.

So the ATF contacted these guys to make illegal weapons for them, that from the sounds of it, that one guy was previously just making for himself. The ATF placed and order for illegal weaponry…. they committed a crime in order to catch somebody committing a crime…who may or may not have committed the crime without the ATF involved. And also from the sound of it, the ATF was their only customer. Once again the ATF is in the illegal gun trafficking business business….but they have badges, so its all good.

I’d imagine only two type of people show up with large orders for unserialized silenced weapons. Real deal ™ criminals and Feds.

Options seemed to be;

a) It’s the former he refused and ends up dead.
b) It’s the former he accepts and get a pay day and possible repeat business.
c) It’s the later, he refuses and they keep upping the offer or take a different approach until he’s screwed.
d) It’s the later, he accepts and end up in prison, getting acquainted with new friends.
e) He calls the cops in California or the ATF. Then just gets raided and his Compound* is suddenly on the news and everything he has is confiscated. Option a is still on table with this one.

I’m sure at no point did any agent try and suggest things would turn out bad for the guy if he refused to do the work. Still it’s the guys fault for taking the 50/50 over the obvious no-win.

I’m sure if a group of dodgy guys turned up at most folks homes asking to buy weapons. Then they’d use that one course they took from the 19 year old two time MOH winning retired Navy Seal and take them all out without their family getting hurt and no comeback whatsoever.

* Compound will include any land more than a half plot where the residence contains any of the following; more than 10 spare AA batteries, more than one handgun, more than a single box of 20 rounds of ammunitions, a don’t tread on me symbol, a bandana, a dog, any non-scented candle, non fair trade coffee.

The BATFE has zero credibility in my book. Every single effing day Police and Federal Agents are out actively manufacturing crime and criminals to keep the criminal legal system “pig” fed in this country.

My bet is that this case falls apart and misdemeanors will be pled for all. Time will tell.

While they have puppet masters with agendas I think part of the problem is they cover at least 4 distinct issues. Management rather than keep that sectioned off with agents sticking to their own area of expertise, they end up with the former military officer who dealt with 500 IED’s in Iraq and no legal training having to make determinations on what’s NFA in a dark office without internet access.

Then you have the guy who can field strip, clean and reassemble any handgun and long gun produced in the last 50 years blindfolded calling in the bomb disposal crews every time something putty like or having visible wires shows up.

If it’s inept management then people needs fired and replaced, if it’s a deliberate thing people need imprisoned and replaced.

That’s kind of the whole point of the U.S. Attorney guy’s grandstanding about how unserialized guns are more lethal than ones that have a series of numbers etched on them, isn’t it? They’re scared shitless that unknown people can make “untraceable” firearms, and that it’s getting easier to do so every day.

In California no face-to-face, or private, sales of firearms are legal. Pistols and Long Guns require the intermediary use of an FFL and “appropriate paperwork”, fees, background checks and so forth. This is as of 1991 for pistols and 2014 for Long Guns. Additionally, the buyer, at least, must have a Firearms Safety Card (FSC) to make use of an FFL, which is obtained by taking a test and paying a $25.00 fee. Yep, it’s a de facto registration of gun buyers, but not necessarily a guns purchased registry. You have to have the FSC to get a background check, but the BC does not require specification of what gun is being purchased.
Whatever these guys were up to would be illegal in California if they sold “no questions asked” to anyone…not saying they were, just stating the situation. If one of the suspects was a gunsmith and had an FFL, then they were probably obeying California Law.

Has anyone ever been dissuaded from committing a crime because his gun did or did not have a serial number? Even assuming so, nothing a few minutes with a dremel won’t alter.

Has a crime ever been solved because the gun used in the crime did have a serial number?

Has a criminal ever been prevented from getting a gun because of a background check? (I don’t mean “Do applicants ever fail background checks.” Obviously they do, but quite often those are law-abiding people with a long-forgotten youthful felony or involuntary commitment on their record. What I mean is, are background checks effective in stopping actual criminals from obtaining guns. Evidence says no.).

It’s all just “security theater” like the TSA, and all just indoctrinates us into dancing to the government’s tune.

Important note to anyone buying or selling firearms if there is even so much as a hint of any funny business going on: ask the other person if they are involved with any law enforcement agency. Ask them if they are law enforcement officers/agents themselves; ask if they are working with any law enforcement agency; and ask if they are an informant for any law enforcement agency.

Notice how the ATF will coordinate spectacular busts with Hillary et al. They for all intents no longer (if ever in modern times ) are a LE org but rather the political arm of the left. Much like political commissars of the Soviet era.

Whatever inkling of evidence to support that gun control was ever effective and that firearms are mystical items that can’t be produced by the common man or woman is now gone. We can make our own guns with hobbyist CNC mills at the click of a button. Suck on those eggs. Going after the gun is now futile. Instead, to reduce gun violence you liberals will have to take responsibility in your actions, particularly with bringing up your children to know “right” from “wrong” and why “right” is better instead of relying on the state to raise both you, your children, and take care of both of you.

California voters voted for people who supported gun confiscation, legal Marijuana intoxication and homosexual marriage. Now live with what you created. The second amendment is not a priority with the majority of California voters. Those of us who cling to our God and guns live in other states.

Hey chris, it was the atf, there federal. Same guys who did the first Waco war crime and Ruby ridge, both of them happened in conservative gun loving God fearing states. Your god is powerless against the almighty atf, ask David k. Oh wait u cant