I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of America magazine.

It was conducted at the request of David OConnell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple: it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church. No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why. They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.

The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable. Lots of people cited the churchs teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women. These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and Id be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues. But there just isnt a lot that the church can do about them. No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.

What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed. Many of the respondents commented that they left because of bad customer relations. One woman said that she felt undervalued by the church and found no mentors. Many more said that their pastors were arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive, and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative. Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say no when a parishioner asks for something that just cant be granted. Sometimes the recipient of that no can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent. Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leadersboth clerical and non-clericalthat simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way. I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastora wonderful and pastorally skillful priestgave to the parish secretary: for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry. One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk. Unfair? Perhaps. But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say no, can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.

A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching. Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared, or delivered in an impenetrable accent. Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience. That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact: sermons become boring in the measure that they dont propose something like answers to real questions. All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive so what? if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the answers he provides with the questions that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks. Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a personPeter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking. An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it. When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.

A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey. Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way. Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people: many Catholic parishes are hugeupwards of three or four thousand familiesand staffs are small. Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away. A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visitanything that would say, Weve noticed youre not coming to Mass anymore. Can we help? Can you tell us what, if anything, weve done wrong? Wed love to see you back with us.

The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve. However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.

Obama is attacking the Catholic Church in America, no other church. You should stop to think about that. Satan knows the right address. He knows there is only one church he needs needs to worry about. He doesnt need to worry about the people that left that church. Hes got them already.

102
posted on 04/19/2012 5:29:55 PM PDT
by MarkBsnr
(I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)

St. John did not say you WILL or SHALL eternal life. He said you MAY or MIGHT have eternal life. You need to ask yourself why that is a conditional statement.

Jesus made conditional statements and He made unconditional statements. If you wish to believe that gravity pulls upward and the sky is green and fantasies are real because you want them to be, what need have you?

104
posted on 04/19/2012 5:36:18 PM PDT
by MarkBsnr
(I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)

I challenged several of the antiCatholics to count the times and amount of time that Paul went to the Jews, as opposed to their claims, based upon Scripture. There were two who confirmed my statements. They habitually debate honestly. The rest huffed and puffed and disappeared.

Their premise is wrong and therefore their conclusions are also wrong.

What premise and what conclusion? Paul himself states many times in Scripture that he was the apostle to the Gentiles, supported by the very words of Jesus.

It's been demonstrated more than once out of Scripture itself that it is true. Continued denial of the truth found in God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture can only be an indication of a depth of deception that is staggering.

If Jesus' own words aren't good enough for you, I don't know where you go next.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him (Ananias), Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.

Acts 22:21And he said to me, Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.

Acts 23:10-11 10 And when the dissension became violent, the tribune, afraid that Paul would be torn to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him away from among them by force and bring him into the barracks. 11 The following night the Lord stood by him and said, Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.

Acts 26:13-18 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

15 And I said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said,I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

Now, who do I believe? Jesus? Or the Catholic church? Or someone else who puts themselves forth as an authority when it's clear they don't know Scripture?

106
posted on 04/19/2012 5:49:58 PM PDT
by metmom
( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

I was only sixteen years old when I KNEW that the Catholic Church did not preach the gospel. On my own, I continued to attend Catholic Mass after my parents divorced but there had always been something I knew that didn't "sit right" with what I had been taught all my life up to then. Walking home from Mass one Sunday, I distinctly remember praying, "God, if you are real and if there is any such thing as truth, I want to know it.". Within a few months we were transferred back to the U.S. from where we were supposed to stay for another year and a half. We started going to a Southern Baptist church as a family since my grandparents went there. In a little Sunday school room, the teacher opened the Bible to John chapter ten and I read in verses 27-30 the following:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one.

A light went on in my soul - what I now know was the Holy Spirit illuminating God's truth to my heart - and I understood that Jesus was speaking to me telling me that he GAVE me eternal life from which I would never perish, never to be plucked from his hands and that I could KNOW I had eternal life through faith in Him. I realized then and there that what I had been told all my life by the Catholic Church about going to heaven was NOT the truth and I also KNEW that I had no desire to go back to it. I certainly had the freedom to if I wanted, but I did not want to. Everything since then that I have learned about the Catholic religion only reinforces that I made the right decision.

When anyone wants to know "why do Catholics leave", my answer is that some realize the truth of the Gospel - the real Gospel - and returning back to Catholicism is unthinkable. I have never regretted my decision and my walk with Christ only grows stronger the more I live for and learn of Him.

107
posted on 04/19/2012 5:52:15 PM PDT
by boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

"The only thing that really makes me angry is when people denigrate the beauty and art of the Church as some sort of paganism."

Every society aligns itself on the principles it orders itself to. Catholicism orders itself, rightly, to the three transcendentals of Truth, the Beauty and Goodness. These three achieve their convergent perfection in God who is infinite truth, beauty and goodness. The effort to achieve greater levels of beauty in Catholic art, architecture, music and Liturgy are worship and are done in reverence to God, not paganism.

110
posted on 04/19/2012 6:03:04 PM PDT
by Natural Law
(If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)

Prior to Vatican Council II, this is precisely what they did. Back then, the churches were packed to overflowing - no air conditioning. Another admonition made back then was to NEVER enter a non-Catholic Church. Since VCII, it's all about ecumenism. Is it any wonder catholics are confused.

How does that work in the economy of the Catholic Church's teaching that the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when in his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals? Are you stating that you disagree with what a legitimately elected Pope and the "Sacred Magesterium" have decided in Vatican II? Are you admitting to exercising your own "interpretation" of the truth? Interesting...

112
posted on 04/19/2012 6:11:01 PM PDT
by boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

Why we don't see what John the Apostle writes then read about it. He is in the Bible.

A State Of Grace Or Call it a Stewardship of Grace ?

It is a State or Stewardship of Grace. Just look at 1John1. We maintain it. Notice John talks about himself.

This is addressed to Christians. We have to live the life.

We have to confess our sins to God as Christians though Jesus.

John 1:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 IF we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

verse 7 shows IF WE KEEP THE WALK THE SON PURIFIES.

8 IF WE( Christians) claim to be Without Sin, WE DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH IS NOT in US. 9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

There are several IF s in this by John The Apostle.

IF is defined as Condition, Requirement Or Stipulation in my Dictionary.

Notice every One of the words IF the true meaning it reads after this word if are presented for true understanding.

Notice Deceive. Deceive equals if We Claim to be with out Sins.

Notice how we make God a liar and His Word is Not in Us.

Do Not Be Decieved. Why would The Apostle John write These exact words!

He uses the word We meaning he includes himself.

He uses a lot of Wes too. Hmmmm. Do Not Be Deceived!

WE are Not Robots!

Do Not Be Deceived!

GOD IS NOT A DICTATOR!

Jesus I Pray for All to Understand Your Apostles Words !

You have to LOVE THE LORD THOU GOD. YOU CAN NOT LOVE HIM IF YOU ARE A ROBOT. A Free Willed person can only Love not a Robot.

Luke 10:27

He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, He Is faithful and just and Will Forgive us Our sins and Purify us from all unrighteousness...................

Were you really EVER a Catholic? Fallen away Catholics - or lapsed Catholics - have a great deal of angst and pathos regarding their lost faith. You seem to have only hostility.

This seems to be the standard "defense" of those that have nothing of value to contribute to an examination of THEIR faith..

"Fallen away"..No walked away ..No ran as fast as I could away ...as if I was running from the devil himself

My faith has not " lapsed" ..as a Roman catholic I had no faith in the work of Christ on my behalf.. my "faith" was in a man made system and my adherence to it and my obedience to their "rules"..it was faith in a system..not a faith in Christ..

Thanks to the grace of God I soared into the arms of my Savior...where I am held securely ...

I am not "hostile" to the Roman church I simply hate false doctrine that will damn well meaning men and women ..I ask them to compare what they are taught to the word of God ..

I do not care if they are Catholics or Mormons or JWs ... my desire is for all to come to Christ

Before someone goes around accusing others of being *unloving* and that's why they're being taken wrongly, they need to make sure they're not simply blame shifting because they're being offended by the truth.

Excellent words to live by especially as we converse on this forum. We cannot know each others motives nor what's in each others hearts, we can only be responsible for ourselves and how we communicate. It's always a good idea to do a "heart check" first before we answer back to a post that angers us. If we let Him, sometimes the Lord convicts us of the very thing we are so quick to accuse in others. Our words should always be sweet because sometimes we may have to eat them, I think the line goes.

118
posted on 04/19/2012 6:35:44 PM PDT
by boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

Do you understand what this says? ...It is not saying what you want it to say

It is telling us to follow the scripture..because unlike men It is perfect

Young's Literal translation .." And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise -- in your hearts;

Certainly nothing a Catholic could Amen

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

Peter is telling them to read and listen to Pauls teachings ...which BTW are found today in the NT

Anyone can "read" the Bible..the question is can they rightly divide it..

Rev.17
[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
[9] And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
[10] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
[11] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Thank you for those Scripture passages. I know there are many, many more than confirm the same truth. If someone insists that not knowing if we are saved until judgment is taught by the “Church” and Scripture, we can see that Scripture most definitely does NOT teach that which leaves them with their “Church” holding doctrine NOT taught in Scripture. And they wonder why some people leave?

127
posted on 04/19/2012 7:28:05 PM PDT
by boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

"Now, who do I believe? Jesus? Or the Catholic church? Or someone else who puts themselves forth as an authority when it's clear they don't know Scripture?"

I'll believe Jesus and the Catholic Church, thank you. Nowhere in the Scripture you cited does it say that Paul was exclusively the Apostle to the Gentiles and the historical record of the Eleven traveling to all corners of the known world to evangelize is well established.

Carefully chosen verses from Acts does not negate the command from Jesus to the Eleven to "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28) or the testimony that they indeed had; "But they went forth and preached everywhere,".

130
posted on 04/19/2012 7:47:55 PM PDT
by Natural Law
(If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)

I often wonder how anti-Catholics travel when they travel to Europe. Do they avoid Notre Dame Cathedral or St. Marks in Venice? Avoid all the Italian art museums because they may see a beautiful representation of Christ? Several months ago I was on a Catholic thread where someone actually thought the Sistine Chapel was sinful. These folks are out of their tree!

Dunno that I would use a un-named 1993 Gallup poll as a fact of anything. Especially how many Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I’d find some data to back that claim up if it were me before I would assert it was “true”. Just sayin’.

"I often wonder how anti-Catholics travel when they travel to Europe."

It has its roots in colorlessness and humorlessness of the iconoclasm of Calvin where religious art was considered as an evil or at the least an extravagance. They did not see it as being a form of worship or as a time tested means of communicating the Word of God. They saw any non-written means of teaching the Word of God, even to illiterate persons, as a threat to their form of Sola Scriptura exegesis. They need education, forgiveness and prayer, not ridicule or condemnation.

138
posted on 04/19/2012 8:46:29 PM PDT
by Natural Law
(If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)

"Check out Psalms 150. Would you ricicule any of the other forms of praise in this passage?"

You do realize that the writers of the Psalms (such as David, and others), including Psalm 150, also sacrificed (slaughtered) large and malodorous animals at many of their liturgical celebrations, and scattered the beasts' blood here and there. Would you advocate doing that during Christian liturgical celebrations as well?

Also, while Psalm 150 does say that a dance of praise is a good thing, it does not say that it should be done as part of any liturgical celebration. It is a good thing to eat a meal, and it is also a good thing to take a shower, but you wouldn't want to take a shower at a restaurant table, and you wouldn't want to eat dinner while taking a shower.

As Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 says, there is a time and a place for the various activities of life, including a time to dance (verse 4).

Have you ever heard of Jesus Christ doing any liturgical dancing, or any of the Apostles of Jesus doing any liturgical dancing, or any other Christians mentioned in the Bible doing any liturgical dancing? (I'll check back tomorrow for a response - I have to get up pretty early tomorrow.)

140
posted on 04/19/2012 9:17:37 PM PDT
by Heart-Rest
( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))

1John1 :8 IF WE( Christians) claim to be Without Sin, WE DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH IS NOT in US. 9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

10 If We claim We have Not sinned, We make Him out to be a Liar and his word is Not In Us.

Correction: GOD gave the world Leonardo and Michaelangelo. They'd still be known as great painters no matter what they painted. The RCC isn't responsible for their talent and is not the only venue available for the expression of their talent.

148
posted on 04/19/2012 10:13:36 PM PDT
by metmom
( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)

John is writing about individual sin. We as Christians have to confess our sins to Christ. Not once saved always saved. You can see my original post.

We are not Robots. It is relationship with God. Two way street. Not everything is done and we walk in between the raindrops.

When we walk past the Pearly Gates of Heaven and we know for sure that we are at least 5 feet past then we are truly saved. Then we never will be tempted again by the enemy. But in the mean time we are still on earth. The enemy will still tempt us.

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