Since it's only the two of them doing the work, aren't these jeans even more scarce than other premium brands? Not trying to debate the quality (I've got Japanese-made and Cone Mill jeans), just the fact that the limited production from a two-person outfit also contributes to its price point, which I think is fair. But I'm saving up for a laptop and dropping $300+ on jeans I want isn't exactly fiscally responsible.

Since it's only the two of them doing the work, aren't these jeans even more scarce than other premium brands? Not trying to debate the quality (I've got Japanese-made and Cone Mill jeans), just the fact that the limited production from a two-person outfit also contributes to its price point, which I think is fair.

But I'm saving up for a laptop and dropping $300+ on jeans I want isn't exactly fiscally responsible.

Uh, what? You can split $315 retail into fewer pieces with 2 people than you can with 200 people, regardless of the limited nature of the product. By using that logic, these things should be cheaper, not more expensive, to make a comparative profit margin.

Not necessarily. My understanding is that the final cost of the product is also largely determined by the perceived value of the market. True, the overall value in terms of hourly wages and production costs may come out to a dollar sign much less than the price being sold, but that can be said and critiqued of every manufacturer. I think the makers of Raleigh Denim are not making anywhere near the $200-300 per pair the jeans are selling for. Those prices are the perceived retail value. I think you're right in saying that it's definitely possible that they are making a bit more profit (for the reasons you stated) if it is just two people. It doesn't necessarily have to affect the retail price. However, the way the jeans are made, through sustainable methods and local means (in and around North Carolina), the quality factored in with a limited production run (which is pretty unique) puts a product out there that is quite unlike what other brands are doing. Not saying other brands aren't creating products of similar quality, but I think the limited production run is a valid factor in determining the retail price. Also, the last I checked the jeans are selling for $215, 235, 275, 315, etc. on the Barney's website. I still think it's a fair price for quality and ecologically thoughtful manufacturing.

Not necessarily. My understanding is that the final cost of the product is also largely determined by the perceived value of the market... I think the makers of Raleigh Denim are not making anywhere near the $200-300 per pair the jeans are selling for.

Assuming they're getting a 2.2-2.4 margin on these the way they are on their other models... Where is the rest of the price coming from? Raleigh isn't a huge company to begin with so their product is already limited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grooveholmes

I think you're right in saying that it's definitely possible that they are making a bit more profit (for the reasons you stated) if it is just two people. It doesn't necessarily have to affect the retail price.

No, it doesn't, it just gives greater pause when you compare these jeans' value to the rest of the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grooveholmes

However, the way the jeans are made, through sustainable methods and local means (in and around North Carolina), the quality factored in with a limited production run (which is pretty unique) puts a product out there that is quite unlike what other brands are doing. Not saying other brands aren't creating products of similar quality, but I think the limited production run is a valid factor in determining the retail price. Also, the last I checked the jeans are selling for $215, 235, 275, 315, etc. on the Barney's website. I still think it's a fair price for quality and ecologically thoughtful manufacturing.

If people want to buy these jeans simply because they love NC so much then they should probably marry them, too. Plenty of other companies do limited runs of jeans both abroad and domestically. If you can't think of any then you might be doing your research in the wrong library. Again, this is a tiny company. "Limited" is an inherent part of their company.

And what's so unique about this specific limited production? The denim used? The hardware? The pattern? For the price they're asking, you can have comparable jeans made to measure in the US.

Of course Barney's is selling denim at all price ranges but what specifically about these jeans make them worth the $315 instead of the $200~ that the rest of their line goes for? I'll consider believing you about the price being "fair" when you show me your receipt for these things although I'll probably accompany it with a slight chuckle, the same chuckle I gave when I read your bit about their "ecologically thoughtful manufacturing."

Whoa whoa whoa, whodini. Your cynicism is not compelling. I'm not saying that other companies do not produce limited runs. What I AM saying is that I don't know of any other companies out there that are intentionally crafting denim through local means with environmental sustainability in mind. That comes down to where the materials are made, how they're made and shipped. If Raleigh Denim keeps everything within a 200-mile radius, it might be turn out to be a good model for local economies as well as have low environmental impact. There are definitely non-denim Japanese companies who follow similar models (which I have some experience with), but far less American companies. Given their model, coupled with their constraints, which I believe necessarily results in a limited run, I think that's all pretty unique and worth the retail price. For the record, the price point argument is moot-- it's whatever a retailer and consumer thinks is fair market price. You and I obviously disagree, which is fine. I'm saying I think their price point is fair, if the quality is good and it is "limited" compared to their other models. If the demand is there, they'll sell, which I think they're doing. If Denim Demon, Levis, Sugar Cane, etc. charge more for limited runs compared to their other lines, I don't begrudge them for having higher retail value. We can look at receipts all we want, but we all know the concept of "scarcity" is what's driving the established price point. I don't think Raleigh Denim is necessarily inferior to these other brands. I don't know what I did to merit the tone of your response except disagree... For the record, I'm not trying to attack you personally, but trying to add the discussion.

What I AM saying is that I don't know of any other companies out there that are intentionally crafting denim through local means with environmental sustainability in mind.

The Apolis of denim. It's a tougher sell for me being that they are coincidentally based out of NC, an area with the means for such a project. Sure, it's smart marketing on their part but I don't see it as righteous as they make it out to be, let alone warranting the price tag. It's like selling sand from the Gobi while touting how green you're being for not importing sand from other deserts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grooveholmes

For the record, the price point argument is moot-- it's whatever a retailer and consumer thinks is fair market price... We can look at receipts all we want, but we all know the concept of "scarcity" is what's driving the established price point. I don't think Raleigh Denim is necessarily inferior to these other brands.

The price is whatever Barney's thinks it can upsell to its customers, the same way that Japanese stores upsell Made in America goods. Again, using words like "scarcity" is laughable with a company that looks like it moves a couple hundred units a year (read: that's already pretty limited.) Using denim that is widely available on the market and used by other companies, I, too, doubt that Raleigh is necessarily inferior to other brands. The question, though, is are they any better to demand that $315 price tag?

It's like selling sand from the Gobi while touting how green you're being for not importing sand from other deserts.

It's VERY similar to that. Importing items does have an environmental impact. At the end of the day, there really is something to be said for keeping things local. Keep in mind the $315 price tag that is listed for the "limited edition" denim. Other retailers sell "limited edition" denim for higher price relative to the cost of "regular" runs. It's not an unusual practice. The pricing for their other styles start at $215. Is a $10 drink at a bar worth $10? It's not an easily answerable question if there are people who are willing to pay that much. Now if I know a bartender who can make a damn good drink, then mmmaybe it's worth the $10 I throw down. Or at least it stings my wallet a little less. Like I said, we disagree on whether the particular pricing of this product is warranted. I don't think anyone is trying to be more righteous that anyone else. If you think that attempting to put forth a model with sustainability and locality in mind is tantamount to being "righteous", why try different models/modes of production at all? If textile manufacturers in Kojima are repurposing leftover tatami mat edges or make paper from denim scraps with the environment in mind, it doesn't make them any more righteous than an American designer who wants to take a more thoughtful approach toward environmental waste and ways to curb emissions. It's knowledge and awareness put into action. Additionally, a designer with the desire to keep it small and maintain a "hands-on" approach wins because it does keep their costs low and allows them to continue to work and improve their craft. I'd be more skeptical of large corporations like Wal-Mart that attempt to pawn off eco-friendliness. If Tellason can do something similar on the West Coast, I don't see why Raleigh Denim can't on the East. The pricing is somewhat comparable at the $200-250 mark.

Whodini, I agree with you mostly, but your blatant antagonism shows when you try to discredit the guy for being "coincidentally located in NC, an area with the means for such a project." The intrastate manufacturing may be a coincidence rather than some premeditated environmental plan, but it doesn't make it any less true. grooveholmes, your point is technically valid, but I think the Barneys shopper is not exactly the posterboy of legitimate sustainable practices. i.e. it would be - to put it lightly, pompous - to buy $200+ jeans due to a tagline about their environmentally-friendly means of production. I don't know if it was always under this brand heading of Raleigh Denim, but Victor Lytvinenko has been producing jeans since at least early 2008. They have always sold at this $200-300 price range, and this was originally for non-selvage denim. So the point I'm trying to make is that discrediting the eco-friendliness of Raleigh Denim isn't exactly the tragedy of the commons. And the bottom line is that there are much more sustainable practices (locally-thrifted Levis + local tailor). There are jeans of similar look/fabric/quality for $150-200. And there are better jeans for this $200-300 price range. And the back pockets are fugly

i feel like price is arbitrary so much of the time. what justifies ande whalls? rogue territory? what justifies the price of iron hearts? 45rpm? jeanshop? samurais? value is in the eye of the beholder right? if you like it buy it, or seek out a cheaper/comprable alternative.....