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If you read all of my comments about swinging, you'll find that I do understand that there are swingers who are poly and poly folk who also swing.

I understand the difference between swinging and poly quite well, thank you. I also have seen many participants in online discussions who are swingers and clearly not poly speak about being poly. All nonmonogamy is not the same.

In my observations of the overall poly community, I've personally noticed two large factions... One being among people in relationships which are mixed gender and the other being relationships that contain gay men only... and the two groups don't often mix.

On the mixed gender side, I've often noticed that the norm tends to be bisexual women and straight men. I can't say I know of any straight women though I'm sure there have to be some that are involved in poly relationships.... and I've occasionally seen lesbian women in poly relationships come and hang around with the mixed genders for support. And I've seen really mixed attitudes regarding bi men and trans folk in the mixed gender poly community, ranging from not accepting at all to very accepting.

Maybe it's just the community of gay men that I hang around with, but it's seemed to me that poly and/or some form of open relationship is rampant... It almost seems weird to me to hear that a gay man is monogamous based on the behavior and philosophy of most of the gay men I know. One of the interesting things that I've run into as a poly woman is that some of my gay male friends have tried to dissuade me from poly because they have a perception that mixed gender poly relationships have much more drama than gay poly relationships do. I disagree with this sentiment, especially since the first time I was told this, I was being told it by some men in the most drama ridden triad I have ever seen. :lol:

Interesting observations, Nikkiana; I've recently put myself up on a dating website as being a bi man looking for poly-friendly partners of either gender, and so far the overwhelming interest (such as it is ) has been from women who identify themselves on that site as 'straight'. Dunno if this is just a UK thing.

I do know that gay men there don't come near me now that I'm 'bi', though they did when I was 'gay', but that might be the Torch Song Trilogy Phenomenon - you know: "Just for once, I'd like to meet a bisexual man who lived with his boyfriend and snuck out to see his girlfriend..." There's still a strong perception that bisexual (bi men in particular) = promiscuous/confused.

I have yet to find a UK-based polyamory site or forum to see what others are up to or into over here. Oh hell, does that mean I should start one?

I have yet to find a UK-based polyamory site or forum to see what others are up to or into over here. Oh hell, does that mean I should start one?

Perhaps, but our very own www.polyamory.com has a place for UK-specific communications and communions. What needs to happen, I think, is better promotion of this site there in the UK and elsewhere. You can help by pointing to us at your dating sites, etc.

And, yes, bisexual men seem to get the short end of the stick pretty much everywhere. (I'm one of those, myself -- though I tend to favor men for lovers, generally, so far.) We're looked upon with all sorts of suspicion from those who are not like us.

Maybe it's just the community of gay men that I hang around with, but it's seemed to me that poly and/or some form of open relationship is rampant... It almost seems weird to me to hear that a gay man is monogamous based on the behavior and philosophy of most of the gay men I know.

I've never selected friends or social environments based at all on sexual orientation (though lately I'm actively seeking to make more gay and bi male friends). I mention this only because it helps you to see where I am coming from; I'm not, and never have been, part of a gay or queer subculture. This fact means I haven't got a particularly strong sense of what's going on "out there" in the big, bad gay/queer world.

I have known a fair number of bi-, gay, queer men. And for a while I was hanging out with some Radical Faeries at one of their "sanctuaries". The faeries I knew generally inverted the mainstream culture's monogamism, meaning that they looked upon monogamy with a bit of snooty superiority and contempt. Some of these were polyamorous--but few. (This was a long time ago.) One of them even asked me to be one of his lovers!--which weirded me out, since I hadn't yet come to understand and embrace polyamory. Love, to me, still meant monogamy.

Getting to the point.... My overall experience is that, yes, many, many gay/bi/queer men have open relationships of some sort or another, but few are actually polyamorous. Sexual non-exclusivity is one thing and polyamory is quite another -- because poly is primarily about creating loving relationships, usually passionate loving relationships, and it looks very much to me that most gay men with lovers are as possessive and fearful of loss as most straight folk are.

Often, gay male lovers will work out an agreement to the effect that each agrees that the other can have "sexual freedom" --, but have a verbal contract to the effect that "sex is just sex" and "it isn't okay to fall in love" with an outside person (sometimes called "trick").

Gay men often seem to have their erogenous zones split off from their hearts, and this sort of thing seems to be a symptom of that. If one hasn't had that split happen to them, or is deliberately healing that split (however partial it may be -- and I'm one of these, with a very mild case), having "just sex" --without emotions in the love-spectrum-- is a concept akin to "North of the North pole". Yes, the body can experience intense pleasure by rubbing body parts with another body -- but why bother when what we really want is to love and be loved in this way? And isn't there something rather deceptive and crude about using another person as an inflatable doll in a masturbation fantasy?

Of course, not all loving relationships will be alike, or will be long enduring as such, but I'm not at all interested in loveless sex. It stands in the way of where I'm travelling to.

Pardon me the labyrinthian nature of this wandering post. I must leave it rough, for that's what wants to be said, and I'm still learning what I have to say anyhow.

That's a good point, JRiverMartin.... while nonmonogamy seems to be fairly common among the gay male communty, it isn't necessarily polyamory.

I'm fairly familiar with the Radical Faerie outlook on things, I went to a gathering at the sanctuary closest to me last fall, and probably will go to more this coming summer... and I have quite a few friends that call themselves Faeries.

I'm in New Hampshire. Faerie Camp Destiny in Vermont is the sanctuary that's nearest to me, and the rumor that I've heard is it's the camp that seems to have the most female and trans Faeries, which I think is pretty nifty.