I have a bunch of questions... I ordered two V1500's (includes the miniDSP and Umik-1). I have a Pioneer VSX-1124 (which has sub EQ). My 5 speakers/surrounds include NHT Classic Two's and an NHT TwoC center. My entertainment center/TV stand has a 60" LCD. I have a pretty large room. It is about 18x30x9 (4860cf). The front two speakers are atop of 2 foot speakers stands. The rear speakers are ceiling mounted.

My wife has approved three locations for the subs (included in the picture). Surprisingly, the XV15, which I previously owned, sounded best when placed right to the left of the TV stand in between the stand and the left front speaker (Pos 1). I had also placed it in Pos 2 and Pos 3 (near field?) and it sounded ok but strangely not as good as Pos 1. So I'm thinking of placing them in Pos 1 and Pos 2. I would love to place it in a corner but unfortunately the corner is the fireplace (to the left of the couch).

Any suggestions on placement other than these positions? These three positions are probably the most aesthetically pleasing.

More questions: Do I need to reset all the settings as far as sub EQ, before connecting the miniDSP? When I connect the miniDSP (prior to REW), do I need to run the sub EQ with the AVR on each individual sub?

Since I am limited on placement is it worth the time to do the "sub crawl" thing that I hear eveyone talking about here?

I'm really kind of clueless how to set up both of these subs... I just need to know what the first couple of steps are prior to connecting the miniDSP/Umik-1. I obviously will take full advantage of those tools but what do I do first?

Thanks!!!

Pos 1 + either Pos2 or Pos3 should work well. I would try both.

You do not need to reset the AVR, but you will need to re-run MCACC...after connecting the MiniDSP (with the MiniDSP "zeroed out" - all gains set to 0, crossovers set to bypass, and no EQ).

Does your AVR EQ dual subs individually or as one?

The sub crawl thing is always worth it, although it's a bit more complicated with dual subs. Here is my standard dual setup procedure, although it assumes Audyssey and no DSP, the basics are the same. It will probably at least tell you if Pos2 or Pos3 is better for the second sub:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0" on both subs for now.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Playing the AVRs test tone, adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch) (if you have SubEQ HT, skip this step)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -6db to -8db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -6db to -8db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Set all speakers to "small"
14. Set all crossovers to 80hz (or, if set higher than 80hz by Audyssey, leave them alone)
15. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
16. Enjoy!

So you're saying your listening area is 7500 cf without the kitchen (another 2500cf)? For me I would see what sub I preferred for your listening habits and the make a decision, from there it's going to be how many more of what you prefer you're going to need to even come close to pressurizing 7500 cf of open space. That's massive indeed. Do you mind telling us what Tom thinks, I'm just curious. I'm thinking four S3000i's would do nicely.
Cheers Jeff

Actually, one of the things I really appreciate about Tom is that he hasn't ever suggested things like, "you're going to need a lot more than that." The reality for me is that the vast majority of my space is unusable for placement being either overhead in the massively vaulted ceilings which are over 20ft at their apex or in a walkway. Put simply: I have neither the space nor the budget to go with anything larger than 2 of whichever of these options I prefer. Even dual S3000i is $3k which is $500 more than I had budgeted and literally at the top end of what I can afford at the moment.

Moreover, we are planning on a move to a new house in just under a year so my space is likely to change drastically (for the better for this purpose).

My hope is to do at least one of these near-field. But the sub-crawl will tell me what's best of my options.

You do not need to reset the AVR, but you will need to re-run MCACC...after connecting the MiniDSP (with the MiniDSP "zeroed out" - all gains set to 0, crossovers set to bypass, and no EQ).

Does your AVR EQ dual subs individually or as one?

The sub crawl thing is always worth it, although it's a bit more complicated with dual subs. Here is my standard dual setup procedure, although it assumes Audyssey and no DSP, the basics are the same. It will probably at least tell you if Pos2 or Pos3 is better for the second sub:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0" on both subs for now.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Playing the AVRs test tone, adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch) (if you have SubEQ HT, skip this step)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -6db to -8db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -6db to -8db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Set all speakers to "small"
14. Set all crossovers to 80hz (or, if set higher than 80hz by Audyssey, leave them alone)
15. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
16. Enjoy!

Ok great guide!!!

A few questions:

I don't have Audyssey with the Pioneer AVR. Will MCACC work the same? It cals the subs as one (Tom said only high end elite versions have the better MCACC that do individual sub eq).

When I place the sub at the MLP am I placing it in front of the couch? That is basically my MLP.

Actually, one of the things I really appreciate about Tom is that he hasn't ever suggested things like, "you're going to need a lot more than that." The reality for me is that the vast majority of my space is unusable for placement being either overhead in the massively vaulted ceilings which are over 20ft at their apex or in a walkway. Put simply: I have neither the space nor the budget to go with anything larger than 2 of whichever of these options I prefer. Even dual S3000i is $3k which is $500 more than I had budgeted and literally at the top end of what I can afford at the moment.

Moreover, we are planning on a move to a new house in just under a year so my space is likely to change drastically (for the better for this purpose).

My hope is to do at least one of these near-field. But the sub-crawl will tell me what's best of my options.

For under 3K you can do 3 V1500's and then when you move and put your system in a smaller room ( greater output ) it would be like you purchased 3 new subs again. A win win situation

@Alan
, with your sub crawl method should I put the XS30SE on the actual chair or in the spot where the chair is, (move the chair), if on the chair how should the drivers be oriented (firing)?
TIA.
Jeff

@Alan
, with your sub crawl method should I put the XS30SE on the actual chair or in the spot where the chair is, (move the chair), if on the chair how should the drivers be oriented (firing)?
TIA.
Jeff

Jeff I had wondered this same thing and ended up doing it both ways. When I had front firing subs I actually put it in the chair. When I got the XV15 I decided to do the sub crawl again but due to the down firing nature of the sub I figured a soft seat cushion touching the driver would be a dumb idea so I moved the chair and put the sub on the floor (in the spot of the seat). The result? It didn't make a difference. Both times the sub crawl resulted in the same locations. Personally I suggest moving the seat and putting the sub in that spot, it's a lot easier.

As far as where should the drivers be facing? I doubt it makes a difference due to the omnidirectional nature of bass (unless you put the sub in the chair, then I would face the driver away from the back of the chair). I'm not sure what Alan will say but these were my experience.

On another note. REW revealed one of the best locations from the sub crawl was actually terrible for bass below 30Hz and also had a major (but narrow) dip around 60Hz. Ultimately, the sub crawl just reveals where your bass is loudest or comes across better across a broad range but it doesn't reveal whether it's actually the best spot for you subs.

Only REW can really nail down the best locations. However, the sub crawl is the best we can do with out REW and for the vast majority of people in this world that's good enough.

Anyone received a V1500 yet? Just wondering if they have started shipping.

When I ordered, Tom told me that he was expecting the first production run of amplifiers to arrive to him on 3/10 and that orders would start shipping shortly after that--so I don't expect anyone has one just yet.

I will definitely post here as soon as I know mine have shipped and post some photos when they arrive.

When I ordered, Tom told me that he was expecting the first production run of amplifiers to arrive to him on 3/10 and that orders would start shipping shortly after that--so I don't expect anyone has one just yet.

I will definitely post here as soon as I know mine have shipped and post some photos when they arrive.

Good to know thanks!

I've been driving myself (and others) crazy trying to decide on which subwoofer to go with. Well I finally decided on the V1500! I hope to order it next month. Hopefully they will be in stock by then.

Hi all, quick update.
The entire first production runs of the S1500 and V1500 are nearly all spoken for at this point. If anyone is "on the fence", please don't wait much longer. Once these are gone it is uncertain when we'll be ready for the second production runs. It may only be 7-10 days or it could be a few weeks. Of course we'll be hounding our vendors daily to minimize any delays.
Also, we have one XV15(non se) on hand. It has a *small* nick on one corner. Anyone looking to double up on an original XV15 now's he time. This is brand new A-stock(except for the nick). $675.
EDIT---sold in 5 minutes!
More cool stuff soon!

Jeff I had wondered this same thing and ended up doing it both ways. When I had front firing subs I actually put it in the chair. When I got the XV15 I decided to do the sub crawl again but due to the down firing nature of the sub I figured a soft seat cushion touching the driver would be a dumb idea so I moved the chair and put the sub on the floor (in the spot of the seat). The result? It didn't make a difference. Both times the sub crawl resulted in the same locations. Personally I suggest moving the seat and putting the sub in that spot, it's a lot easier.

As far as where should the drivers be facing? I doubt it makes a difference due to the omnidirectional nature of bass (unless you put the sub in the chair, then I would face the driver away from the back of the chair). I'm not sure what Alan will say but these were my experience.

On another note. REW revealed one of the best locations from the sub crawl was actually terrible for bass below 30Hz and also had a major (but narrow) dip around 60Hz. Ultimately, the sub crawl just reveals where your bass is loudest or comes across better across a broad range but it doesn't reveal whether it's actually the best spot for you subs.

Only REW can really nail down the best locations. However, the sub crawl is the best we can do with out REW and for the vast majority of people in this world that's good enough.

Hop, thanks so much for all that info, it would be so much more convenient to just place the 30SE in the spot where my chair is, it's very difficult for me to lift that sub by myself considering I only weigh 50 pounds more than the sub. Thanks also for the heads up with REW nailing the correct spot.

Speaking of REW is there a particular method to determine the correct location of your subs, I haven't read through all of Jerry's guide yet? I guess it was all worth it for you to implement REW into your setup. I have everything ready to go on a new laptop with 8.1 which I'm still learning to use. I have two other PCs I can use with REW installed, they are both Windows 7 34 bit and 64 bit. Should I just use the laptop or try with the older PCs? I just need a reason to get started and quit this procrastinating
Thanks again hop.
Jeff

I don't have Audyssey with the Pioneer AVR. Will MCACC work the same? It cals the subs as one (Tom said only high end elite versions have the better MCACC that do individual sub eq).

When I place the sub at the MLP am I placing it in front of the couch? That is basically my MLP.

Will I need an SPL meter to test the tones for the phase adjustment?

Yes, the theory is the same whether you use Audyssey or MCACC.

As discussed below, you can put the sub directly on your couch (preferred method) or you can move the couch and replace it with the sub (2nd best). I would try to put it in the MLP, but I know with heavier subs that can become difficult (ask me how I know ).

Yes, you will need an SPL meter to set the phase correctly. An SPL meter app will work fine for this though since you are only looking for the setting that is loudest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahblaza

@Alan
, with your sub crawl method should I put the XS30SE on the actual chair or in the spot where the chair is, (move the chair), if on the chair how should the drivers be oriented (firing)?
TIA.
Jeff

I agree with what Hopi said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopinater

Jeff I had wondered this same thing and ended up doing it both ways. When I had front firing subs I actually put it in the chair. When I got the XV15 I decided to do the sub crawl again but due to the down firing nature of the sub I figured a soft seat cushion touching the driver would be a dumb idea so I moved the chair and put the sub on the floor (in the spot of the seat). The result? It didn't make a difference. Both times the sub crawl resulted in the same locations. Personally I suggest moving the seat and putting the sub in that spot, it's a lot easier.

As far as where should the drivers be facing? I doubt it makes a difference due to the omnidirectional nature of bass (unless you put the sub in the chair, then I would face the driver away from the back of the chair). I'm not sure what Alan will say but these were my experience.

On another note. REW revealed one of the best locations from the sub crawl was actually terrible for bass below 30Hz and also had a major (but narrow) dip around 60Hz. Ultimately, the sub crawl just reveals where your bass is loudest or comes across better across a broad range but it doesn't reveal whether it's actually the best spot for you subs.

Only REW can really nail down the best locations. However, the sub crawl is the best we can do with out REW and for the vast majority of people in this world that's good enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahblaza

Hop, thanks so much for all that info, it would be so much more convenient to just place the 30SE in the spot where my chair is, it's very difficult for me to lift that sub by myself considering I only weigh 50 pounds more than the sub. Thanks also for the heads up with REW nailing the correct spot.

Speaking of REW is there a particular method to determine the correct location of your subs, I haven't read through all of Jerry's guide yet? I guess it was all worth it for you to implement REW into your setup. I have everything ready to go on a new laptop with 8.1 which I'm still learning to use. I have two other PCs I can use with REW installed, they are both Windows 7 34 bit and 64 bit. Should I just use the laptop or try with the older PCs? I just need a reason to get started and quit this procrastinating
Thanks again hop.
Jeff

Speaking of REW is there a particular method to determine the correct location of your subs, I haven't read through all of Jerry's guide yet?

More on this:

The correct way to do this is to measure the response of a single sub in every possible location, compare the graphs and find the 2 locations that compliment each other - if you have a large peak in one location, try to counter it with a null from another location and vice-versa.

This is what I did when I had the quad XS15s (measured like 13-14 possible locations) and it worked great for me...I was still lacking output, but that's a different story.

Here is a copy & paste from a post by Mark Seaton that helped me a lot:

Take a subwoofer only measurement in your first subwoofer location while noting signal levels to the subwoofer and volume setting.

Do NOT change any signal levels and start moving the subwoofer to any other possible locations saving a measurement at each location. The response should be louder or softer from different locations and you want to see this.

Choose the location with the balance of fewest dips and most efficiency across the subwoofer range.

If you have more than 1 subwoofer, pick locations that compliment eachother where dips do not overlap.

With multiple subwoofers overlay individual responses and then measure both together driven at the same level to see how they sum. Maximum summation of 2 equal sources is +6dB. Unless there is a big peak, the goal is to get the sum to be +0-6dB and not negative. Moving the sub or adding delay to the closer sub is my preferred way to make this adjustment.

If manually EQ'ing, now apply EQ to the subwoofer alone while also watching for peaks out to 120-200Hz that go above the target or above flat flat if no HP is in the measurement.

Now run any auto-EQ/room correction.

Measure the subwoofer alone and center channel alone. Then the combination of the 2 as shown in AustinJerry's post above.

Make adjustments to the subwoofer distance setting, most often adding to the physically measured distance at 0-8ms.

Choose the smoothest interaction and adjust the crossovers up or down if you see room for improvement.

If you have separate EQ on the subwoofer you can sometimes improve a lumpy/peaky summation by adding a notch to the subwoofer around the crossover range. The benefit to dialog and music balance far outweighs a small dip to the LFE channel.

Next compare the interaction with the left & right speakers making crossover setting and delay adjustments to get a best fit for both.

The more you listen to movies & surround concerts, the more you should prioritize the center channel vs. left/right.

Now measure what happens when you increase the subwoofer level by 3,6 and 9dB to understand what happens when raising the sub level.

Do some listening and adjust the subwoofer level and/or shape to what you are after, and then re-measure subwoofer-center interaction to insure any ramping up in response you add is as smooth as practical.

Some advice I would give you concerning the glass shelves, make sure how thick each shelf is and weight capacity. I made the mistake of ordering a particular stand like yours and only the top shelf could support 150 pounds, 1/4" tempered glass and the 2nd and 3rd shelves were 1/8" thick, weight capacity 64 pounds, I had no use for it after assembly, one amp weighed 59 pounds and I had several other heavy components, so now it's a flower pot stand for my wife's indoor plants.
Cheers Jeff

Some advice I would give you concerning the glass shelves, make sure how thick each shelf is and weight capacity. I made the mistake of ordering a particular stand like yours and only the top shelf could support 150 pounds, 1/4" tempered glass and the 2nd and 3rd shelves were 1/8" thick, weight capacity 64 pounds, I had no use for it after assembly, one amp weighed 59 pounds and I had several other heavy components, so now it's a flower pot stand for my wife's indoor plants.
Cheers Jeff

Just placed my order for 2 V1500. These are going to replace 1 VTF15H mk1. My 11.1 system is all GE: Triton 2, Supercenter XL, Supersat 50s and Supersat 3s for the width and height channels. Looking forward to installing the new subs. But not hauling them upstairs to the HT.

Hop, thanks so much for all that info, it would be so much more convenient to just place the 30SE in the spot where my chair is, it's very difficult for me to lift that sub by myself considering I only weigh 50 pounds more than the sub. Thanks also for the heads up with REW nailing the correct spot.

Speaking of REW is there a particular method to determine the correct location of your subs, I haven't read through all of Jerry's guide yet? I guess it was all worth it for you to implement REW into your setup. I have everything ready to go on a new laptop with 8.1 which I'm still learning to use. I have two other PCs I can use with REW installed, they are both Windows 7 34 bit and 64 bit. Should I just use the laptop or try with the older PCs? I just need a reason to get started and quit this procrastinating
Thanks again hop.
Jeff

Hey Jeff, happy to have helped. Personally I would just use whichever computer is easiest to use and you are comfortable with.

The way to use REW is do exactly what Alan described (great write up Alan). You will get tired of moving subs, running Audyssey, running REW etc... but in the end the results can be spectacular (or at least very good).

I suggest using the sub crawl to find the best three or four spots ahead of time (to save yourself some time and effort) and start with those, they may be very well turn out to be the best spots. REW will either confirm or deny it.