As I attempt to stay in the realm of logic and odds/probability, I've asked myself many times is there a lyme connection. And naturally look in that direction as well.

The only thing I can find is something that I logically following from a "one dot possibly connecting to the next dot". However I don't know enough of the science outside of the somewhat being able to logically follow it as a layman.

And that is the following:

Per Buhners book:

"Mycoplasmas are one of the 'STRONGEST' (emphasis mine) inducers of bone morphogenetic protein 2 (BMP-2)"

"BMP-2 has been demonstrated to potently induce Osteoblast". (Osteoblast is the process of bone formation). "BMP stimulate bone growth naturally in the human body"

" rhBMP-2 causes more overgrown bone than any other BMPs "

So, you have Buhner clearly stating (and pubmed confirming) that mycoplasma "STRONGLY" induces BMP2 and then BMP2 (and family proteins) are responsible bone growth and formation.

These are pretty good straight forward dots that can be connected. But once again for a layman there can be a bunch of variables I'm missing that actually doesn't makes dots connect but I just don't know enough.

This could be the way lyme and co can "mimic" such condition. Especially if some of the most common hallmark symptoms of Acroymalgy I'm actually not experience, but just a few.

"BMP2, 4, 6, 7, and 9 are commonly referred to as the osteogenic BMPs, based on their POTENT (emphasis mine) bone-inducing activity. For instance, BMP2 is indispensable for endochondral bone formation"

IGF = what "causes" Acroymalgy; GH = Growth hormone

"Anti-IGF-I inhibition experiments indicate that GH is able to induce the response without a requirement for local IGF-I production. These results raise the possibility that bone morphogenetic proteins (BMPs) mediate the local osteogenic actions of GH and IGF-I, and lend support to the view that GH can act through the mediation of factors other than IGF-I"

That last sentence is essentially saying that the affects of IGF-I (what causes Acro) can happen without IGF-I through BMP. This can show how the condition can mimic Acro but be lyme and co (more specifically Mycoplasma).

I know, I know. CT scan first for possible answers and also as important "rule outs".

But it's crazy how we lymies have to become biologist and doctors with our research and knowledge throughout the years. I swear at this point I could be given a PHD in many these disciplines (hyperbole).Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

dacarte3 said..."BMP2, 4, 6, 7, and 9 are commonly referred to as the osteogenic BMPs, based on their POTENT (emphasis mine) bone-inducing activity. For instance, BMP2 is indispensable for endochondral bone formation"

IGF = what "causes" Acroymalgy; GH = Growth hormone

"Anti-IGF-I inhibition experiments indicate that GH is able to induce the response without a requirement for local IGF-I production. These results raise the possibility that bone morphogenetic proteins (BMPs) mediate the local osteogenic actions of GH and IGF-I, and lend support to the view that GH can act through the mediation of factors other than IGF-I"

That last sentence is essentially saying that the affects of IGF-I (what causes Acro) can happen without IGF-I through BMP. This can show how the condition can mimic Acro but be lyme and co (more specifically Mycoplasma).

I know, I know. CT scan first for possible answers and also as important "rule outs".

But it's crazy how we lymies have to become biologist and doctors with our research and knowledge throughout the years. I swear at this point I could be given a PHD in many these disciplines (hyperbole).

You definitely get MY nomination for several PhDs! Your brain is definitely working very well.

Girlie said...dacarte - why not do the lab work first for the GH? As it's the elevated GH that causes those results/symptoms.

(just curious what your thoughts are)

Definitely. Per the consultation with the doctor yes. Unless you are saying bypass the doctor (for now) and hit up my LLND and get her to write it and view the results with her? And that did peak my interest, to have someone that is lyme literate to work with me on this issue.

And if those results are "good" then no need for the CT scan and going down that road? I guess that is an option.

However, possibly getting both done with the neurologist would make me feel better. Some visual evidence of things, or not things. will be re-assuring for me.

Edit: but I always have my LLND to get the GH levels checked if for some reason the neuro doesn't do it. Matter of fact if anything starts to go stupid because you know how the main stream medical community is, I'm immediately contacting my LLND and she can refer me and insist a CT scan.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

Based on your suspicions and research, have you made (or, needed to make) any dietary modifications?

The Dude

The only thing I came across is how intermittent fasting can create more GH. I do intermittent fast.

But exercising can cause an uptick in GH for a period of time do I stop exercising? That doesn't make sense. I should be able to exercise without it being "unhealthy" for me. Doing healthy things that may cause an unhealthy reaction means something is wrong.

It's strange, I'm not angry, I'm not shaking in my boots with anxiety. My moods is simply big "sighs", like really? What else? Seriously, what else?

Some of the worse, disturbing things with lyme has happened to me and now this. Big *sighs*. Like come on, man, really?

I don't even have the "spirit" left to be angry or scared.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

Also, this will sound really strange to most people but I know not people on here.

But in this weird way, I want the quick diagnoses of this as soon as possible. That way I can move forward with removing the tumor. With removal, there's a 50/50 chance if the tumor is big to get full relief and resolution (careful to not use the term cure as such a term really doesn't exist) of symptoms and 80-90% chance if the tumor is small.

In this weird way, I kind of want to just get this show on the road.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

Indeed, I understand that mindset. I think many of us had that thought process, when first trying to figure-out what it was (Lyme) that was afflicting us. As the saying goes: "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't." (I'd rather not deal with ANY devil, but I guess I don't get to make that decision.)

Just thinking out loud for it is therapeutic to chat with you guys (seriously, I'm not panicking or having anxiety).

Probably my best hypothesis (for I'm anticipating a really rare condition to not be the cause):

I was learning more about TMJ. I was remembering 8-9 months ago when I first started having symptoms of TMJ. My temples would swell up huge after chewing and eating and then the wonkiness followed.

During further research I found where TMJ can really distort the face and skull by shifting the bones into a slanted motion to a certain side. Several google images giving me a clear picture. I then really started examining myself. All my bones are shifting, not growing, to the right.

The skull, including the temporalis bone, my jaw bone slanting to the right giving the feel of protruding only to one side. Then I examined under the tip of my nose and realized the cartilage in between both nostrils are is being slanted to the right.

Then I felt the left side of my head and jaw it didn't feel right. It felt "too small". So you have the right that is giving the illusions it's growing, where as the left side is giving the illusion it's getting smaller. But that just it, nothing is growing or getting smaller it's shifting and slanting to one side.

The ridge on the right side back of my head is being created by the back skull plate and temporalis bone plate shifting to the right and thus protruding, leaving a rift in the middle. The left side back is "smaller" and smooth because it's slanting to the right as it shifts (just like the side of my head).

Nothing is "growing" it's shifting to the right and thus giving the appearance of protrusion on the right side.

It's very similar to plate tectonics for your skull is made up of 9-10 plates with sutures (fault lines) between them. Like plate tectonics they are rock hard and sturdy but still has the ability to shift under stresses.

The same "rift" in the back of my head from shifting and buckling can also explain the fore head and brow ridge during the stress of misalignment. The "bossing" of these regions are not even, very noticeably lack symmetry (meaning lack of symmetry in growth) as different stresses are put upon them based on their location.

It also explains the huge questions that I always had of why aren't my hands getting bigger or feet getting bigger (even just a little)? Because they have nothing do with the cranial shift.

Why isn't my nose, ears, tongue and lips getting bigger, even just a little? Because it has nothing to do with the cranial shift. Why is my jaw not starting to protrude forward starting the process of a under bite, not evening just a little, because the shift is to the right and not forward and explains why there's a misalignment and shift of the jaw bone to the right with very little jaw bone to the left (illusion of smaller). I would imagine Acro will have some of signs showing growth on both sides in all of these examples.

Everything is being giving the appearance it's "growing" but it's only on one side. Yes there's no perfect symmetry to anatomy but one side of the head and jaw has zero growth (none) while one side has all of the "growth" (appearance of growth). I'm not an Acro expert but I don't believe that's how it works.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

An excellent, logical analysis. You're the kind of person I'd like to know in real life.

(Just think of all the diseases we could imagine together! On second thought, don't think about that...)

Earlier, I'd asked about diet, because I was wondering if eating more animal-based foods might drive IGF-1 and exacerbate the issues. But, if it's structural/mechanical, rather than hormonal, then animal foods are likely less of a concern.

Also, I can't recall if it was me and you chatting about TMJ in another thread, but I'd mentioned a guy named Mike Mew. He has some YouTube videos talking about how to widen the palate and get a more defined jaw.

Also, on a blog I sometimes follow, the topic of chewing was recently discussed and how this one competitive eater has these massive jaws, presumably, due to all the chewing. Then, in the comments section, someone mentioned "face pulling." Literally, pulling one's face, using a mouthpiece and attached to some weird-looking head gear. Some people have corrected their jaw alignment, over time, using such methods.

I think it was Weston A. Price that was blaming westernized diets for the narrowing of the jaw/palate, due to straying from traditional foods, as native cultures had wider palates, prominent jaws, and beautiful, white teeth that were not crowded. No yanking-out their wisdom teeth.

Lots of interesting ideas and theories.

Speaking of noses, the tip of mine points slightly to my left. My septum is quite deviated. I can tell, through CT and MR imaging over the years, that it's gotten worse. In photos from 20-30+ years ago, my face/nose was symmetrical. I've read online about the dangers of "mouth breathing" and how, allegedly, it can cause a long list of issues. I go to sleep breathing through my nose and wake-up breathing through my mouth - and my mouth is as dry as the Sahara desert.

The Dude Abides said...An excellent, logical analysis. You're the kind of person I'd like to know in real life.

(Just think of all the diseases we could imagine together! On second thought, don't think about that...)

Earlier, I'd asked about diet, because I was wondering if eating more animal-based foods might drive IGF-1 and exacerbate the issues. But, if it's structural/mechanical, rather than hormonal, then animal foods are likely less of a concern.

Also, I can't recall if it was me and you chatting about TMJ in another thread, but I'd mentioned a guy named Mike Mew. He has some YouTube videos talking about how to widen the palate and get a more defined jaw.

Also, on a blog I sometimes follow, the topic of chewing was recently discussed and how this one competitive eater has these massive jaws, presumably, due to all the chewing. Then, in the comments section, someone mentioned "face pulling." Literally, pulling one's face, using a mouthpiece and attached to some weird-looking head gear. Some people have corrected their jaw alignment, over time, using such methods.

I think it was Weston A. Price that was blaming westernized diets for the narrowing of the jaw/palate, due to straying from traditional foods, as native cultures had wider palates, prominent jaws, and beautiful, white teeth that were not crowded. No yanking-out their wisdom teeth.

Lots of interesting ideas and theories.

Speaking of noses, the tip of mine points slightly to my left. My septum is quite deviated. I can tell, through CT and MR imaging over the years, that it's gotten worse. In photos from 20-30+ years ago, my face/nose was symmetrical. I've read online about the dangers of "mouth breathing" and how, allegedly, it can cause a long list of issues. I go to sleep breathing through my nose and wake-up breathing through my mouth - and my mouth is as dry as the Sahara desert.

I eat tons of meat. I exercise and intermittent fast. All things that boost testosterone which induces HGH and then HGH it's self. Higher than healthy IGF-1 could be exacerbating the TMJ. I won't be surprise to find no pituitary tumor but higher than normal IGF-1. In this case I will consult with my doctor on what to do about that.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

The Dude Abides said...An excellent, logical analysis. You're the kind of person I'd like to know in real life.

(Just think of all the diseases we could imagine together! On second thought, don't think about that...)

Earlier, I'd asked about diet, because I was wondering if eating more animal-based foods might drive IGF-1 and exacerbate the issues. But, if it's structural/mechanical, rather than hormonal, then animal foods are likely less of a concern.

Also, I can't recall if it was me and you chatting about TMJ in another thread, but I'd mentioned a guy named Mike Mew. He has some YouTube videos talking about how to widen the palate and get a more defined jaw.

Also, on a blog I sometimes follow, the topic of chewing was recently discussed and how this one competitive eater has these massive jaws, presumably, due to all the chewing. Then, in the comments section, someone mentioned "face pulling." Literally, pulling one's face, using a mouthpiece and attached to some weird-looking head gear. Some people have corrected their jaw alignment, over time, using such methods.

I think it was Weston A. Price that was blaming westernized diets for the narrowing of the jaw/palate, due to straying from traditional foods, as native cultures had wider palates, prominent jaws, and beautiful, white teeth that were not crowded. No yanking-out their wisdom teeth.

Lots of interesting ideas and theories.

Speaking of noses, the tip of mine points slightly to my left. My septum is quite deviated. I can tell, through CT and MR imaging over the years, that it's gotten worse. In photos from 20-30+ years ago, my face/nose was symmetrical. I've read online about the dangers of "mouth breathing" and how, allegedly, it can cause a long list of issues. I go to sleep breathing through my nose and wake-up breathing through my mouth - and my mouth is as dry as the Sahara desert.

I eat tons of meat. I exercise and intermittent fast. All things that boost testosterone which induces HGH and then HGH it's self. Higher than healthy IGF-1 could be exacerbating the TMJ. I won't be surprise to find no pituitary tumor but higher than normal IGF-1. In this case I will consult with my doctor on what to do about that.

Also forgot to mention the two orbs on the frontal bone the right is more pronounce. Once again, shift the the right.

If the ct scan is turns up nothing, what they are definitely going to notice is the prominent shift to the right that am feeling.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

Per usual it's confusing. 100 reason why it's good, 100 reason why it's bad. And everything causes cancer. If mine is on the higher end I'll do what I can per doctors consultation and get it to optimal levels.

Saw the neurologist today. We talk mostly about neuro symptoms and only little about the structural changes. I did this on purpose not to press on the structural changes. Mainly because that is not their area expertise. They are going to see problems through the lenses of the brain and the CNS. Also, I run the risk of "looking crazy".

Speaking of which, being a lyme patient for multiple years I've learned that Neurologist are notorious to quickly put you in the "anxiety" and "depression" category, so I had to be careful with my words. Also they made me take this questionnaire.

The questionnaire is basically to find out if you are crazy or not before the rest of session continues. I'm too savvy for that. Every anxiety and depression question was marked as "no" and "never".

Also they asked me if I've been diagnosed with anything before. You know the answer was "no", no way in hell I'm saying lyme disease and screw this whole thing up.

So I played it all right and got an MRI ordered.

So that is the next step.

Also, while many things don't line up with Acro because so many things are missing I can't rule out the fact that noticing it and catching signs early could be at play before a plethora of changes start occurring.

So as my eye ridge and fore head bosses and the right side of my face shifts and protrudes, I'm not going to wait around for other things to grow.

That's what all Acroy patients stories are, not catching it "early".

I still have a good head space of accepting this possibility and diagnoses and have already been reading up on it and following Acro blogs.

It's not really that big of a pain in the ass (especially already being a seasoned lyme veteran). Matter of fact compared to lyme it's kind of a breeze "relatively speaking".

Have the surgery, which many explain is 3-4 hours and "easy" almost feeling like cosmetic surgery. And then monthly injections to control GH and IGF level.

They also speak about that over months and then of course years structural changes revert back and they really start to look like their old self again.

So when that diagnoses hits me I'll be ready. Ready to just get the show on the road and heal.Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41Ehrlichia (Igenex)Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

Before I was diagnosed with Lyme and purely searching on the internet, it always came up with rare super dangerous things for me too, and that was very hard to deal with considering Lyme was upping my anxiety.

lymelearner said...Before I was diagnosed with Lyme and purely searching on the internet, it always came up with rare super dangerous things for me too, and that was very hard to deal with considering Lyme was upping my anxiety.

I know. But the brow bossing and forehead bossing,....there isn't much that explains those issues problem.

And if not very much explains that except Acro, one must take the necessary steps to check that out.

Interesting. I'm reading this lady's very detailed Acro blog journal. After her surgery, even after the structural symptoms stopped and reversed she still had many other health issues. Matter of fact maybe even more.

And guess what her symptoms are that are lingering, or getting worse, or popping up brand new? It's not structural acro symptoms but lyme symptoms.

So much so that she even mentioned Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. A big red flag for lyme.

We know lyme causes non-cancerous tumors, lumps, lipomas around the body. Why not the Pituitary gland? We know lyme causes dysfunction of the pit gland when it comes to thyroid (hyper and hypo) and adrenals, so why would lyme conveniently stop there and not affect the pit gland/liver with GH and IGF?

lymelearner said...Before I was diagnosed with Lyme and purely searching on the internet, it always came up with rare super dangerous things for me too, and that was very hard to deal with considering Lyme was upping my anxiety.

I know. But the brow bossing and forehead bossing,....there isn't much that explains those issues problem.

And if not very much explains that except Acro, one must take the necessary steps to check that out.

It's just logical (not anxiety).

Dacarte - isn’t it possible that Lyme has messed with your pituitary gland resulting with an increased production of GH? We do know that Lyme affects other hormones - like thyroid, adrenal, sex hormones.