Comments on: Film Club: Throne of Blood (Kurosawa, 1957) https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/
A website devoted to the study and appreciation of Akira Kurosawa's works and related subjects
Fri, 24 May 2019 17:43:31 +0000
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By: lawless https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43332
Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:59:33 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43332I have to admit, characterizing the women in Kurosawa’s films as one dimensional sticks in my craw, although it’s accurate with respect to Asaji and the madwoman in Red Beard. I address this further here. As the linked discussion notes, Kurosawa’s male characters often don’t have particular depth either and his female characters aren’t as superficial as commonly alleged.
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By: Fabien https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43330
Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:15:48 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43330As for me, this additionnal watching of Throne of Blood gave me an increased pleasure based on (slightly) acuter sight and knowledge.

One thing that particularly struck me then is the sense of choreography.
More than the disciplinary rhythm and gestures found in military contexts.
Different from the deeply rooted dance pillar of Noh, as explained in interviews in the bonuses of my dvd. (From AK french editor Wild Side.)

In this film, there are strong moments, marked by harmony or by tension and rupture, when characters perform impressively meticulous series of moves which, at times, are successively swift then slow, or vice versa.

The first moment I thus noticed is a view of Washizu and Miki pompously receiving katanas and new charges from the lord.
Immediately followed by a view upon the fields and peasants collecting their crops.
These two views being opposed not only in the essence of the scene, but in the timing and shape of the moves (the latter being, in my eye, rounder and sweeter albeit quicker).

There is also a noticeable series of moves when the three soldiers guarding the room of the sleeping lord resheath or put away their weapon, one after the other, although we could have expected, in a real context, silmutaneity.

Other choreographically impressive moments are blatantly noh-inspired dual scenes with Asaji and Taketoki, but also, for example, when maids kneel down just before Taketoki and the crazed hand washing scene, or, yet, the rise of intendants and officers facing the bird invasion.

I have other thought threads, but I will try to find adequate and existing discussion threads to fulfill them.

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By: chomei https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43329
Mon, 21 Jan 2019 17:07:43 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43329If ever a movie conveyed the concept of ” the fog of war,” this film certainly does. Nothing is clear, either fog or darkness are almost always present.

One of the few ” clear” scenes is the scene before the lord arrives at Washizu’s estate. He’s happy and so are his men. He had achieved everything he ever wanted. He is satisfied but not his wife. And isn’t Asaji a bit too one dimensional? Of course almost every Kurosawa woman is one dimensional, but she’s perhaps the most.

Buddhism is a faith based on deeds. Buddha tells us that “We are heir to our deeds.” Fate is not what pushes Washizu, it’s his own pride and greed. Perhaps the witch isn’t “real” at all, in any sense, but the result of the intense emotions of battle and the men’s sheer exhaustion. When they are in sight of the castle they are too tired to ride there.

Even though it’s from King Lear, I think this quote is applicable, “As flies to wanton boys are ‘men to the gods, they kill them for their sport.”

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By: BMWRider https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43328
Tue, 15 Jan 2019 00:59:06 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43328So I have probably watched Throne of Blood two or three times at most. It is not one of my favorite Kurosawa films, though I do not think that the problem is with him. Honestly, I think it is my lack of appreciation for the in your face style tragedy that Shakespeare wrote. I love the development of the characters, I enjoy the acting, but in the end I always want to throttle the characters and demand that they use their intellect. I have the same problem with Romeo and Juliet as well as Hamlet (I had the same problem with the critically acclaimed Sons of Anarchy based on Hamlet).

So before watching Throne of Blood yesterday I decided to watch it from a different POV. I watched for two things, the black and white version of the human sweeps that AK used later in (in color of course) Kagemusha and Ran, and for the performance of Mifune. On the first part I was not disappointed to see the movements of soldiers used in mass to paint a picture. I will admit to imagining what it would have been like had Kurosawa had access to a Hollywood budget. But, my appreciation for his mastery of using the movement of his actors to set the tone of battle was only heightened. It is much more difficult to convey that in B/W than color. Again AK’s skill as a director especially concerning battle scenes is amazing.

I feel Mifune does a brilliant job of portraying a man that is sinking into madness. Yes his bluster does wear thin (a tool he also used in Rashomon), but he ensures the viewer see his mounting insanity. I think most of us wish we could tell Washizu to stop. Something struck me yesterday, just as Eve tempted Adam with the fruit of knowledge, Asaji tempts Washizu with the fruit of power. In the end she pays dearly. Since Asaji really is the more ambitious of the two and ensures that Washizu completes the job, she pays by living with hands that cannot be washed of the blood she shed.

So on the whole, I am not the biggest fan of this film, but there are many elements I enjoy. I am glad to have found more that I can enjoy and appreciate the Club for providing the opportunity to do so.

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By: BMWRider https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43327
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 22:01:10 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43327Just finished rewatching and will add my thoughts later. If anything the film club encourages me to revisit films I have not seen in sometime.
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By: Vili Maunula https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43326
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:20:45 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43326Mugibuefan: I would say that all three approaches are valid and can lead down interesting interpretive paths. That said, I know very little about noh theatre but my understanding is that in Throne of Blood its influence is in the end quite concentrated on specific visual aspects, rather than wider form or content. But, as I said, I know very little about noh.

What comes to Shakespeare, language is pretty much all we have from him. We know relatively little about the specifics of how his plays were performed and what those performances looked like. Still, the plays were written to be performed, so any production is always going to be part Shakespeare, part something else. In theory, there’s also the question how much of Macbeth is actually someone else than Shakespeare: the version that got printed likely includes at least some bits from his contemporary Thomas Middleton’s plays.

In the end, I suppose everything is an adaptation. Including the act of interpreting a film like Throne of Blood. Or, indeed, subtitling it.

Njean, thanks for the quote! So, I remembered it correctly, more or less. I should probably hunt down my Criterion copy and watch the film with Richie’s subtitles. I’m fairly sure I had the Criterion DVD at some point but somehow now I only seem to own the Australian Madman print.

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By: Mugibuefan https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43323
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 07:44:25 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43323I think njean’s quotation from Richie is inclined to support the comment I made above regarding option (1). It may not have been the distributor’s reasoning, but the attempt at a “Shakespearean” or “Jacobean” (the latter not being of the same literary class as the former, but still from English literature of the time) translation of Throne of Blood, which could be interpreted (although it is not clear this was part of Richie’s intent) as an attempt to bring it more in line with contemporary Shakespeare may have been seen as ultimately unsuccessful. A brave try by Richie however.
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By: njean https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43322
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 00:03:41 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43322Vili, here’s what Donald Richie said about his subtitles, in an essay in the Criterion booklet.
“When I did the subtitles for Throne of Blood, a film so stylized that the art director had to create an entire historical vernacular for it, I turned to an equally heightened diction, thinking it would both support and to an extent create the artificiality that Kurosawa was aiming for. I read the minor Jacobean playwrights, Francis Beaumont and John Fletcher, John Webster, Cyril Tourneur, particularly plays like ‘The Revenger’s Tragedy,’ until I understood their bloodthirsty solemnity. This I attempted to re-create in my titles for the film.
Though transparency is a worthy aim, there is also something to be said for the opaque – it all depends on the film being translated. I felt that this Kurosawa film, so claustrophobic, characters hemmed in at every turn, could be supported by a noncolloquial diction, one that required an amount of contemplation. I hoped that the language would put a brake on the emotions just as the dramaturgy of this particular film does.
Hence my Jacobean experiment. Whether it is successful of not, I have no idea, because these titles were never used and, until now, have not been seen. The distributor who originally commissioned this translation decided eventually to go with the original Toho titles, done by one of the people there.”
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By: Mugibuefan https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43320
Sat, 12 Jan 2019 18:51:02 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43320Is Throne of Blood better viewed as: (1) a (perhaps free-form) adaptation of Shakespeare’s Macbeth? (2) primarily a cinematic Noh play with some connection to Shakespeare’s Macbeth? or (3) something sui generis? This has been argued on all sides by critics, depending on their background, either in literature or cinema. I wonder what the contributors to this forum think. The problem with (1) is, I agree with those who feel the essence of Macbeth is in Shakespeare’s language as being necessary to properly illustrate the “inner” conflict issues of the protagonist, which therefore limits the appropriateness of any foreign cinematic “adaptation” (2) I’m not familiar enough with Noh other than to note, as others have, its undoubted influence on the structure of the movie (3) It could certainly be appreciated merely on its own merits, without necessarily characterizing it as primarily either (1) or (2), although noting some influences or similarities.
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By: Vili Maunula https://akirakurosawa.info/2019/01/01/film-club-throne-of-blood-kurosawa-1957/#comment-43317
Thu, 10 Jan 2019 16:14:31 +0000https://akirakurosawa.info/?p=11077#comment-43317You raise some really good points, njean!

I think the witch/spirit’s song goes on too long. … I think the next sequence also goes on way too long; the endless riding around in the Spider’s Web Forest makes me want to hit Fast Forward.

My interpretation here has been that the scenes were specifically designed to make you uneasy. In most places, the film is really tightly edited and economical, and the scenes before these are definitely like that, so I would think that there is meaning to these sections being built as they are.

Finally, there’s the scene where Washizu and Miki dismount and sit, talking about what they’ve just experienced with the spirit. They are widely separated, and the castle is seen in the distance. The photography keeps us at a distance from them. Why?

Although they don’t necessarily fully realise it yet, Washizu and Miki are really talking about how the castle and what it stands for will end up dividing them. It already does so, in the framing. The gulf between them has appeared. They have become smaller, mere pawns for the fates.

Or at least that’s one way to interpret the framing.

Criterion has provided two different sets of subtitles.

Now, do I remember incorrectly, or did Donald Richie specifically model his translation on Shakespeare’s Jacobean style? I don’t have the Criterion set myself so I could well remember wrong.

By the way, any idea what’s the deal with horses turning around in circles in this film? In a number of scenes where you would expect a rider to sit on a standing horse and deliver his lines, the horse is instead doing circles in one place, agitated and uncontrollable. Is this thematic and echoing the wheel of time that we saw with the witch? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

It seems like this is particularly common early on and late in the film, with the middle of the film featuring calmer horses, where also the story is a little calmer for a moment.