Originally by:Omiot PavusTo try and claim that either of the militia corporations have "surrendered" when they seem to be too willing to continue attacking ILF operations doesn't qualify as anything short of a joke to me. The corporations haven't "surrendered," ILF grandstanding notwithstanding. They've only stopped paying their bills.

That's a sight different from ceasing hostilities.

Thank you, you are correct. Lets put some facts out there for everyone because I find all this chest thumping kinda of funny. SBPD have a MASSIVE total of 9 active pilots, the ILF has almost 100 pilots. When we started looking for you guys, we couldn't find any of you except those that would just be sitting in station. Also if we look at combat data, ILF seems to ride the coat tails of I-RED. Sense there was nobody to shoot at in Intaki except for the random pilot from your corp, we found it best just to stop paying the bills.

On a side note, I'm loving how a little 9 pilot corp crawled that far up your skin. Then again our combat record does put yours to shame.

Despite this debate taking place in the Summit, I've gone to lengths to avoid "grandstanding" by attempting to systematically address the various responses and providing the links to earlier comments, discussions and references to support our position.

A number of responses throughout this thread have touched on the point that the only real change seen in the conflict between some elements of the Caldari militia and the IPI is that official CONCORD war fees are no longer bing paid. This i correct and I stated myself in my last response that both Hell's Revenge and Short Bus Pole Dancers are considered to pose a threat to IPI vessels when in the same system. I stated clearly that they are flagged with a -10 standing in response to said threat.

In fact the following quotes make the intentions of the two corporations involved very clear:

Originally by:Sun ZueWe will still shoot you on sight.

This time we are going to work toward cripple the Intaki economy.

Originally by:Super ChairHaving a war declaration bill to concord go unpaid does not stop me from blowing your alliance members up.

Originally by:Sun ZueWe at the SBPD stand apart from the militia in this quest. Sense no orders from higher in the command have come down to stop, we will continue.

It is interesting then that in the face of suggested "ILF grandstanding" the very clear intentions behind the quoted statements here, that publically available killboard statistics reveal that SBPD appear to have been content throughout the whole affair to have focussed their attention on the contested zones of Essence and Black Rise, with only a couple of Placid related incidents appearing at all. It would appear that "SBPD grandstanding" has differed greatly to the reality of in-space activity and this is reflected in their failure to achieve their stated objectives as discussed earlier.

Turning then to the suggestion that the ILF is claiming victory here. Not once in any ILF statement in this entire discussion has the word 'victory' been used. Instead we have focussed on the failure of both wardecs against us to have had any great impact on the IPI across the Placid region. The Suresha clearly stated that ship losses were incurred but if SBPD comments here are to believed it's as if we're claiming on the scale of the State militia being single handedly ejected from Placid.

It's seems however that SBPD are more persistent here in the Summit that they were in Placid, persistent in their pursuit of some small victory.

Originally by:Sun ZueSBPD have a MASSIVE total of 9 active pilots, the ILF has almost 100 pilots.

So now SBPD would have us believe the reason for their failure is a matter of numbers. The ILF's current 97 pilots to SBPD's 9. An overwhelming advantage for the ILF it seems. If not for the contradictory...

Originally by:Sun ZueThen again our combat record does put yours to shame.

Originally by:BeshnuIts hilarious to think that about 30 pilots made 100 pilots stay indoors.

It sounds like the numbers don't actually mean anything in the end. After all of those 97 ILF pilots, the majority are assigned to the industrial divisions and are more familiar with mining lasers than hybrid turrets.

Originally by:BeshnuI also smell a slight hint of b******t

I agree. But with SBPD's 9 pilots apparently in Essence and Black Rise according to your killboard, and the ILF in Placid that smell you've noticed is more likely coming from closer to home.

Edited by: Yumi Hikare on 20/08/2011 01:57:00Considering that I was the pilot of both combat vessels lost in the war, I feel I should make a note here.

In the first instance, the loss of my Arbitrator, was a combat experiment with a sub-optimal fit. I aggressed two pilots from Hell's Revenge who were in vastly superior ships to my own and consequently was pretty much obliterated as soon as my ECM dropped. I had been looking for trouble though and found it.

The second instance was the loss of my Harbinger in an attempt to bypass a combined fleet of SBPD and Hell's Revenge in Agoze en route to Stacmon. I unfortunately was unable to escape the superior numbers and firepower brought to bear against me and lost my ship.

After these incidents, had my duties planetside not called me away for over a week, I would have willingly continued to engage the war targets, whether with fellow ILF pilots or alone. As it is, both wars ended up being declared against my bank account and not much else.

I look forward to engaging you in Intaki if you are wont to swing by when I am around. I have minimal interest in the plight of the Intaki people, not being Intaki myself, but I do like shooting at privateers.

Just because we arnt paying the bill does not meen we wont KOS any terrosist we see. If you want to pay for the war dec then go ahed. If you realy are the protectores of Intaki then how come i have jumped into intaki in my drake and sat in orbit above your planet with my guns trained on it. I sat there for about 10 minutes before i got bord and left, seems the people of Intaki did not call for your help. While i sat in orbit i thought "I could kill thousands of people just like the federation did 200yrs ago" who do you realy want as an ally saxon? people who will bombard your planet if you show any sort of independace? or people who will not.

Not that I wish your immediate opponents any success to speak of, but could it be that you misstated or misunderstood the situation? Maybe? A little bit?

Ida allows the admission of misunderstandings or slight bits of hyperbole, yes? There are arguments worth spending your political credit on, and then there's the other kind.

You may wish to consider whether this is the other kind.

You are making the common mistake of assuming any defeat infers that there was a victor, that is not always the case.

2 corporations make delarations of war against IPI with publicly announced objectives. Those wars have both ended without the stated objectives having been attained. This would to most thinking people infer a defeat or perhaps a realisation by the aggressor that their objectives are unattainable.

The conflicts had no perceptible negative effect on IPI operations, indeed if anything it could be reported that traffic through the Intaki trade hub increased over recent weeks. The loss of 2 ships to the aggressor corporations while regretable is of no real significance and just part of the general hazards of operations in low security space.

IPI does not claim victory because the wars were an irrelevance, we had no war aims beyond being left alone to continue our work to improve conditions in Intaki and the surrounding system.

Suresha Hawke has only made a public staement following the end of hostilities as it seemed very unlikely the aggressor corporations would. He clearly felt that as the commencement of hostilities had been considered newsworthy it was only right and proper to give their end a similar level of coverage.

Originally by:Randall AlbaYou are making the common mistake of assuming any defeat infers that there was a victor, that is not always the case.

Not always, no. Hence "implies," not "declares."

"We accept X's surrender," is a very different statement from, "X has given up its unsuccessful highsec campaign."

It is triumphal language.

It's also the reason your opponents are presently climbing all over you here-- and, to my eye, gaining ground.

Capsuleers (and people with power in general) often seem to suffer from this idea that they can never admit to a mistake, can never grant an error, no matter how small. We'll often go to the most ludicrous lengths to defend an indefensible perspective.

It's not a wise use of resources-- credibility, in this case.

It looks to me as though this is precisely what you are doing: trying to semantically carve a minor mistake until it's not a mistake anymore, as a means of saving face. The question, then, is not, at this point, "who's right"; it's "can you recognize when the other side might possibly have a point?"

Why am I so sure about this? It's because (1) the title of this thread built up an expectation in me that the facts failed to deliver on; (2) you've been called on this by multiple other parties, many of them admittedly partisan, pointing out the very same thing I noticed; (3) your defense of your position involves trying to reinterpret the terms involved until you didn't say what you said-- never a good sign.

Pilot, at absolute minimum, you (collectively) haven't communicated very well. If you had, this argument wouldn't have been possible. At most (and most damaging), this is a chunk of fairly crude propaganda whose lousy content you are now attempting to defend.

It may not look like it, but I'm not particularly hostile to your cause. You may want to collectively reconsider whether this is a position worth defending; I believe it's costing you credibility.

Failure? None of this was a failure. I-RED is all over the Placid doing what they said they are going to do. The IPI on the other hand are have about 3-4 in the Intaki area at most. You do little to help anything to do with Intaki or protect it.

As for Black Rise and Essence comment its simple, I still have my duty to The State which comes first to any of you. Caldari is still at war with the Gallente and the Minmatar, and defense of Black Rise comes first before an advance into Placid. We will not ignore our duty to protect the Caldari people over personal operations in the Placid region.

The number were brought up to point out the when even with a 8 to 1 advantage, you still couldn't meet force with force. I don't want to hear garbage on how most of your pilots are industrial. If your going to call yourself Intaki LIBERATION Front, because Liberty doesn't come free. You have to fight for it and seize it when to moment is right. What do you fight for? Who would you kill to take the Liberty you seek? You don't fight, you stand up, you only sit quietly in the back while others die for you. Do you think most of the Minmatar today would be free if they asked nicely? Nope, freedom is not free, freedom is not given, freedom though through inaction can be taken. The cost of freedom is blood, and the cost is high. You chose to not to pay for that freedom with your own blood and sit back while other like I-RED do it for you.

The fact is, you want liberty for Intaki, but want someone else to pay the price for it. Hiding in the shadows, basically saying we'll give you the weapons to do it but not our lives because we are miners. Maybe its time you didn't bother with the LIBERATION in the name and changed it to "empty" or "peace" and just leave Intaki completely till the fighting is done with.

Maybe its time you start train those in industry in the use of Hybrid Weapons, because sooner or later, with will find were your mining ships are hiding out. My guess it's as far away from the fighting as you can get.

Quote:You are making the common mistake of assuming any defeat infers that there was a victor, that is not always the case.

It's not a common mistake. By giving this communique the title "ILF accepts surrender of Caldari militia forces", you are in fact claiming victory. Stop taking pages out of I-RED's books, since we know a bad influence is not something you want to follow.

Originally by:Sun ZueFailure? None of this was a failure. I-RED is all over the Placid doing what they said they are going to do. The IPI on the other hand are have about 3-4 in the Intaki area at most. You do little to help anything to do with Intaki or protect it.

As for Black Rise and Essence comment its simple, I still have my duty to The State which comes first to any of you. Caldari is still at war with the Gallente and the Minmatar, and defense of Black Rise comes first before an advance into Placid. We will not ignore our duty to protect the Caldari people over personal operations in the Placid region.

The number were brought up to point out the when even with a 8 to 1 advantage, you still couldn't meet force with force. I don't want to hear garbage on how most of your pilots are industrial. If your going to call yourself Intaki LIBERATION Front, because Liberty doesn't come free. You have to fight for it and seize it when to moment is right. What do you fight for? Who would you kill to take the Liberty you seek? You don't fight, you stand up, you only sit quietly in the back while others die for you. Do you think most of the Minmatar today would be free if they asked nicely? Nope, freedom is not free, freedom is not given, freedom though through inaction can be taken. The cost of freedom is blood, and the cost is high. You chose to not to pay for that freedom with your own blood and sit back while other like I-RED do it for you.

The fact is, you want liberty for Intaki, but want someone else to pay the price for it. Hiding in the shadows, basically saying we'll give you the weapons to do it but not our lives because we are miners. Maybe its time you didn't bother with the LIBERATION in the name and changed it to "empty" or "peace" and just leave Intaki completely till the fighting is done with.

Maybe its time you start train those in industry in the use of Hybrid Weapons, because sooner or later, with will find were your mining ships are hiding out. My guess it's as far away from the fighting as you can get.

The Intaki Liberation Front does conduct their own operations outside Ishukone-Raata Combat Patrols of the Placid/Black Rise Regions. It should be noted that ILF is a capable entity otherwise they would not have been in operation so long, they may not be as skilled as the Protectorate Forces but they have been committed to a cause and path for years.

They do not flop around between allegiances on a whim like most pilots, and know where they stand in New Eden.

Originally by:Sun Zue...I-RED is all over the Placid doing what they said they are going to do. The IPI on the other hand are have about 3-4 in the Intaki area at most. You do little to help anything to do with Intaki or protect it.

(...)

Maybe its time you start train those in industry in the use of Hybrid Weapons, because sooner or later, with will find were your mining ships are hiding out. My guess it's as far away from the fighting as you can get.