The reason that I used Raw Foodist in the title, is that deep down, I think there is a place for meat, in survivalist situations like living on a boat,organic raw meat, or wild caught fish.

while any source of meat has more toxins, if you're starving and the only source of food is meat or fish, then I think it's okay to eat it, preferably raw, though if it's likely to have parasites, it's excusable to cook it.

Though likely there is something the meat is eating, with the right skill set can catch or grow it, and thereby revert to a safer diet.

The lower on the food-chain, the more there is of that food, and the safer it is for consumption.

When converting to a Raw Vegan diet, it is best to do it in stages.

start a meal with some fruit to start those digestive juices. their sugary goodness will get your appetite going.

then have a wholesome salad, Note that salad is what will make you feel satiated. based on my own research on nutritiondata.com such a wholesome salad can consist of Kale, Collards, Lettuce, as main base of salad, dill, parsley or herbs as flavorful nutrient component, and Carrots or Tomatoes as anti-oxidant component.

I use no dressing in the main salad bowl, everyone spices and oils their own dish, I recommend sunflower or olive oil.

Canola and Soya oil, often sold as Vegetable Oil is GMO, can be used as a pesticide or for lubricating machinery. If eat it, you'll get symptoms of pesticide poisoning, such as itchy skin.

Also I use the salad as the base of the meal, filling up the bowl 1/2 to 3/4 full of salad, then I put my starch on top, then the protein, lastly spices and oil. then I mix it all together, yum yum.

Lentils and Chickpeas are some of the safest sources of high calorie protein. As cans frequently have toxic chemicals, it's best to get them in dry format. Can soak your Lentils and Chickpeas overnight, and cook them in morning. Note that about 10% protein is optimal for longevity based on scientific research, if you are growing muscle or other tissue, a higher percentage of protein is temporarily acceptable. legumes have 30%, green vegetables average 20%, starches 10%, and fruits 2.5%

note that even though green vegetables have high percentage of proteins, they have few calories, and so are generally safe. plant based proteins such as those in legumes are easier to digest into enzymes so are safer than animal proteins.

then become vegetarian, removing meat, then become lacto-vegetarian, removing eggs, then become vegan, removing dairy, and other animal by-products

Then become a whole-food vegan, eating only whole-grains, whole-fruits, etc. eliminating industrial chemicals like sugar, artificial anything and processed foods.

Now as you move towards Raw Veganism

Technically you can still have 20-15% cooked foods and still call yourself a raw-vegan, some foods like mushrooms must be cooked to remove toxins, and some like potatoes are unpalatable while raw.

You can start sprouting your Brown Lentils and Chickpeas. After you soak them overnight, drain, and rinse them daily for a few days, You can start eating them as soon as the roots begin to appear, once you see the leaves appearing, can leave them on a windowsill to get sunlight they will turn from yellow to green, and increase in nutrients.

Raw seeds, like sunflowers, and pumpkin seeds can be eaten straight. Remember that Raw Nuts should be soaked and have water changed, to remove anti-digestive enzymes. Pine nuts are the only exception, as they don't have those enzymes.

Here is a Raw Vegan food pyramid.

In terms of permaculture, having a raw vegan diet means you can sustain yourself from a smaller area with a forest-garden. Can still have animals, they will be the helpers, fertilizing, reseeding, and pruning.

In terms of food-storage you can pickle, ferment, cellar or dehydrate foods. Salads are best stored fermented, cucumbers, tomatoes can be pickled, Grains and legumes store well in a cool location, fruits and spices are usually best stored dehydrated. I love to make tea from dehydrated fruit and berries.

elspru wrote: Though likely there is something the meat is eating, with the right skill set can catch or grow it, and thereby revert to a safer diet.

The lower on the food-chain, the more there is of that food, and the safer it is for consumption.

It's fairly easy to eat meat safely. Millions of people do it every day and the vast majority suffer no problems. There is no need to be scared of food. You just need a little knowledge about food hygiene and you can probably get through life without poisoning yourself or others to death.

I get the impression that the calorie restriction scene is based on a calorie restriction experiment with mice? I have read, slightly overweight people tend to live longer, healthier lives than anybody else so I'm really not so sure that under-eating really is best for health. Under eating certainly doesn't suit me so I would say it's not for everybody.

My health has come on leaps and bounds since cutting out all starches, limiting vegetables and virtually eliminating fruit while increasing meat and eggs. My way seems to be the best for me and from what I have read elsewhere there are other people having the same kind of benefits as me on the same kind of diet.

Logan Streondj

Posts: 50

2

posted 8 years ago

Warren David wrote: It's fairly easy to eat meat safely. Millions of people do it every day and the vast majority suffer no problems. There is no need to be scared of food. You just need a little knowledge about food hygiene and you can probably get through life without poisoning yourself or others to death.

I get the impression that the calorie restriction scene is based on a calorie restriction experiment with mice?

it's been corroborated in human trials. there is a link in the intro about calorie restriction that goes over human trials. Mentions Okinawans were doing a study for 65 years with 11% reduction, and have some of the longest life expectancies in the known world.

I have read, slightly overweight people tend to live longer, healthier lives than anybody else

that sounds like an urban myth based on wishful thinking.

so I'm really not so sure that under-eating really is best for health. Under eating certainly doesn't suit me so I would say it's not for everybody.

Agreed, and that's exactly what processed food consumption leads to. People undereat their nutrients, and end up hungry, while stuffing themselves constantly, wondering why the're never satiated.

My health has come on leaps and bounds since cutting out all starches, limiting vegetables and virtually eliminating fruit while increasing meat and eggs. My way seems to be the best for me and from what I have read elsewhere there are other people having the same kind of benefits as me on the same kind of diet.

Your not even being specific about any of the perceived "leaps and bounds". American Government publications suggest that as an overweight person, you increase the risk of contracting the following ailments:

Excuse me elspru, but I'm really curious... Warren, I'm familiar with reducing carbs in all their forms, but I can't imagine how reducing fruit and veg is good for you. Were you eating heaps 'before', or do you thrive on a diet of less fruit/veg than some? I'm avoiding talking about 'recommended daily requirement' type stuff as I consider it to be generic and unhelpful, but I eat LOTS of veggies and I've never heard of them having a negative affect on someone's health. I'd never imagined restricting veggies!

Warren David

Posts: 187

posted 8 years ago

Leila wrote:Warren, I'm familiar with reducing carbs in all their forms, but I can't imagine how reducing fruit and veg is good for you. Were you eating heaps 'before', or do you thrive on a diet of less fruit/veg than some? I'm avoiding talking about 'recommended daily requirement' type stuff as I consider it to be generic and unhelpful, but I eat LOTS of veggies and I've never heard of them having a negative affect on someone's health. I'd never imagined restricting veggies!

No I was not eating "heaps" before. Just moderate amounts. Something wasn't quite right though so I thought the easiest thing to do would be to virtually eliminate carbs for a while and then gradually reintroduce them to figure out the optimum amount and also figure out which were the most problematic. After much experimentation, I have found I get on best when I avoid vegetables high in starch or fructose. Things like potatoes, carrots and other root vegetables. I don't have any problem at all with leafy veg like rocket (one of my favourites!) and watery veg like courgettes (zucchini).

Just as a little side note. There is a commercial on UK tv for a toothpaste that claims to help protect tooth enamel. The guy in the commercial is talking about how eating a healthy diet with lots of acid fruits can cause erosion of tooth enamel. It got me thinking, just how healthy is a diet that is eroding your tooth enamel? Not that I actually care how much or how little, fruit people choose to eat. I'm a big believer in the freedom to eat what you choose to eat.

Logan Streondj

Posts: 50

2

posted 8 years ago

Warren David wrote: I've been more specific in the "Questions about eating Paleo" thread.

The only thing I can find you mentioning there in terms of positive benefits, is that you were better at moving heavy things around on slopes.

I myself also carry heavy things over slopes, some heavier than my own body in fact, such as when I'm harvesting wet clay or sand.

I'm not overweight so I wont be worrying about it.

okay, well in your paleo thread you posted your pic of you shirtless on a paleo diet.

to be fair here is a picture of me shirtless from 2007, on a diet very similar to your paleo, eating large amounts of meat, and no veggies. admittedly I also ate some dairy products, bread, and occasionally pure-squeezed juice.

BEFORE in 2007

here is a pic of my face from November 2008, just before I went vegan, I was eating almost exclusively pelmeni, which is meat-balls wrapped in a bit of white-flour.

AFTER

Now in Jan 2011 my face

and now shirtless, note my ribs

how eating a healthy diet with lots of acid fruits can cause erosion of tooth enamel. It got me thinking, just how healthy is a diet that is eroding your tooth enamel?

To have a balanced diet, must also include green vegetables, which are basic on the ph-scale.

Warren David wrote: I have just thought of a couple more. I also stopped getting gout and acid reflux. The usual cures for gout that I have seen have suggested a reduction in high protein foods such as meat. I am actually eating more meat now than I was when I had gout. What seemed to get rid of gout was reducing carbs. The carbs seemed to have been causing some sort of stress that caused my body problems in dealing with the uric acid in protein. I found this out totally by accident after reducing carbs, to combat acid reflux and candida.

BTW you don't look good at all in the shirtless pics. How old are you?

Personally, and I hope this isn't sexist or something else offensive, I find the photos of Warren David paleo diet body much more attractive than the Elspru raw vegan diet body. Just saying.

Idle dreamer

Warren David

Posts: 187

posted 8 years ago

:blush

Logan Streondj

Posts: 50

2

posted 8 years ago

Ludi Ludi wrote: Personally, and I hope this isn't sexist or something else offensive, I find the photos of Warren David paleo diet body much more attractive than the Elspru raw vegan diet body. Just saying.

Personally I look good to me, and I feel great, I think that's what counts the most.

seems like I was unconsciously sucking my stomach in, as is common practice in overweight north-america.

here is a pic from this morning of me with a relaxed belly.

There aren't any ribs to count, so for me it's not as interesting a photo.

I'm in a long-term relationship and my partner is quite beautiful.

Considering I have no idea how you look Ludi, and also considering my extremely specific-standards for females, it's highly unlikely you fit my type either .

Anyhow, for your enjoyment, a male much more interested in his muscles. This is before and after raw vegan diet.

I'm not really sure why it makes it so difficult to reply to you. I tried quoting you and none of the information is here. Also your insults are making it doubly difficult.

Before paleo I was suffering with...

Lower back problems

seems work related.

Dry skin

insufficient oils, vitamin-e

Sinus problems Chest infections

you were allergic to something

Candida

Candida is a fairly common yeast, usually it's totally fine and okay.

if you were having any problems with it, acidity too high, eat more alkaline like salad.

Low blood sugar

eat more low glycemic index foods

I noticed you were talking about "starch cravings" that only happens with high-gi foods, like baked potatoes. since the starch strains are so short it's like sugar. So thy get digested too quickly.

Pains throughout my digestive system

likely related to your high-acidity, as in not enough salad.

All gone after switching to a paleo diet.

I guess meat is fairly PH-balanced, though based on your descriptions, it seems you were eating lots of fruit, and very little if any salad, or bread with baking soda.

I have just thought of a couple more. I also stopped getting gout and acid reflux. The usual cures for gout that I have seen have suggested a reduction in high protein foods such as meat. I am actually eating more meat now than I was when I had gout. What seemed to get rid of gout was reducing carbs. The carbs seemed to have been causing some sort of stress that caused my body problems in dealing with the uric acid in protein. I found this out totally by accident after reducing carbs, to combat acid reflux and candida

yes, same deal, your sources of "carbs" seem to have been highly acidic in nature. though actual carbohydrates, starches, are PH-neutral. like I said not enough sources of alkali like salad.

BTW you don't look good at all in the shirtless pics.

Hey I can say the same to you All that squinting and frowning. your skin seems a bit red in areas. indicating it's overwhelmed, by all that sunlight.

I'd suggest eating more lycopenes, to help protect your skin, for longevity.

Personally I always dress appropriately for the weather, with long-sleeves and wide-rimmed hat for sunny times.

You know, in most of the world, I'm thinking Asia in particular, white skin is the highest prize.

How old are you?

23

Warren David

Posts: 187

posted 8 years ago

2

I'm not really sure why it makes it so difficult to reply to you. I tried quoting you and none of the information is here. Also your insults are making it doubly difficult.

I didn't make any insults. Maybe your vegan diet is making you hyper sensitive?

My back problem was mostly related to klebsiella in the joints of my spine. The klebsiella is a bacteria that feeds off starches.

My sinus and chest infections were both due to milk and wheat allergies.

I'm not interested in eating more salad. I don't get on well with most vegetables. I know what veg I'm ok with and I know the quantities I'm ok with.

My sources of carbs before going paleo tended to be whole grains and fruit.

I know you might be trying to help but I have already cleared up the health problems I had. A paleo style diet makes me feel good and gives me plenty of energy. Something that no other diet I tried ever did.

My "squinting and frowning" is because I took the pic in the morning when it was very bright and the sun was still quite low in the sky. I'm 50 so I'm entitled to have a few lines on my forehead anyway.

I have worked outside for many years. I know how much sun I can handle. I have had plenty of people younger than me with their pasty complexions and wrinkly skin trying to give me advice on how to look after my skin.

The vegan guy in the pic certainly has some definition. I'm not into the very low body fat and over emphasis on training abdominal muscles thing though. I prefer to keep a more natural look and I can do it without a great deal of effort.

At 23 you can take lot of liberties with your diet and health. The internet is full of young vegans with little experience trying to tell us old bastards where we are going wrong. Come back when your 50 and still in good health and I might take you seriously. I really don't mind what you choose to eat or not eat so if you want to be vegan, that's ok with me but you will never convince me that it would be healthy for me. It doesn't look healthy for you but maybe you are still a work in progress? Anyway if you ever decided to get on a proper diet, you know where to find me.

really? macrobiotics* says it is very acidic (though it depends on the meat).

*i don't put too much stock in macrobiotics myself justsayin

as for the hot pics i suspect you could get fit on a paleo or vegan diet. i am skeptical of totally raw vegan diets, but different strokes. BTW is there any discussion about getting antioxidants on a paleo diet?

Posts: 147

Location: Anoka Sand Plain, MN Zone 4/5, Sunset Zone 43

posted 8 years ago

oh and calorie restriction can go to hell

Warren David

Posts: 187

posted 8 years ago

Burra Maluca wrote: Hey guys - why are you arguing?

Just because we have different views on the subject does not mean we are arguing.

Warren David

Posts: 187

posted 8 years ago

christhamrin wrote: BTW is there any discussion about getting antioxidants on a paleo diet?

All fruits and vegetables contain antioxidants. As far as I know, all fruits and any veg that doesn't need cooking, are paleo.

Personally, I'm more of a fan of the paleo diet. It appears more close to the traditional Asian food habits I'm familiar with, minus the rice and soy.

I think it's definitely possible to be healthy as a strict vegetarian or vegan. Many Asians are vegetarian or vegan because of religion (Buddhism, Hinduism) or ethical and philosophical beliefs. Paleo diet makes it easy to get all that's required and then some and to me appears closer to what our ancestors ate. But then again, I think they ate almost everything unless it was noxious. The body knows very well what it needs. Variety and diversity is the key.

The paleo diet isn't just about eating meat. It's about eating lots of healthy fruits and vegetables, (preferably organic...perhaps from a permaculture garden ) and lots of high quality, grass fed, organic meat. It really bothers me when people talk about the paleo diet as if there are no/little veggies required. Potatoes are high in starch and so it's not recommended that you eat them often. Also, sweet potatoes are encouraged. I've just started eating a paleo diet, and as a type 1 diabetic, so far it's working out great. I've done the vegan route and I just find that I can't keep myself sated. The paleo diet is working better for me because I stay full longer, I'm already losing weight and I'm eating much better, more high quality veggies and meat. And what better way to do that than with your own permaculture garden!?

jaggednib wrote: The paleo diet isn't just about eating meat. It's about eating lots of healthy fruits and vegetables, It really bothers me when people talk about the paleo diet as if there are no/little veggies required.

Oh well excuse me for finding what works for me . Where I'm from there are not "lots of healthy fruits" naturally available for much of the year and I doubt there were lots available year round in much of the world during the paleolithic period either which is after all what the diet is based on. I have found that eating lots of fruit does not make me healthy anyway so I limit them.

I've just started eating a paleo diet,

Oh and there's silly old me that has been on it for quite a few years but you're here to tell people like me where we are going wrong? Diet is all about finding what works for you personally. It seems to me that most people that have been on a paleo diet for a while have found or are trying to find a balance of what foods work best for them as an individual. There are probably as many variations of the paleo diet as there are people on it.

and as a type 1 diabetic, so far it's working out great. I've done the vegan route and I just find that I can't keep myself sated. The paleo diet is working better for me because I stay full longer, I'm already losing weight and I'm eating much better, more high quality veggies and meat.

That's good. I know what it's like to struggle with health issues and then finally find something that works. Long may it continue.

Warren David

Posts: 187

posted 8 years ago

maikeru wrote:Many Asians are vegetarian or vegan because of religion (Buddhism, Hinduism)

Many Buddhists and Hindus are not vegetarian. It's a matter of choice. For example the majority of Indians are Hindus but most are not vegetarian.

I like the raw foods, fruits and veggies all the way. The only animal things we eat are eggs, no dairy or even honey. It's working great for us, the kids and I are all slim, strong and very healthy. To each their own though, it's not a contest.

Warren David wrote: Many Buddhists and Hindus are not vegetarian. It's a matter of choice. For example the majority of Indians are Hindus but most are not vegetarian.

That's perfectly true. Lay Buddhists and Hindus usually aren't, but there's a strong legacy of vegetarian and vegan dishes because of the influence of monks, priests, etc. Many Asian societies also haven't been able to afford a lot of meat products other than poultry, pork, and seafood, and even then the first two are usually limited.

Jeez, thanks for resurrecting this thread. I've a sister that's into these kinds of arguments, and frankly trying to talk sense to anyone who's found religion is a waste of time.

Just a couple of points. We are omnivores. Paleo diets probably contained far more insects, grubs and the like than red meat---very good because of the omegas and other essential fatty acids. Vegan diets are way too much work to get right and balanced.

As for calorie restriction, lets do a thought experiment. If there is an excess of food, that means that reproduction should be ample ergo the older ones have to die off to make way for all the new ones. If you train your organism that food is scarce (calorie restriction) it will think that there is famine, that reproduction is low, and that it must live longer to ensure the species. But honestly what's the point of living forever if you look like you should have been buried long ago?

We cannot change the waves of expansion and contraction, as their scale is beyond human control, but we can learn to surf. Nicole Foss @ The Automatic Earth

Posts: 55

posted 7 years ago

1

I would like to mention something for all the people interested in being vegans.

As you all know B12 is very important. However not everyone knows that there are two common types you can purchase as supplements. The one I recommend is Methyl B12. Methylcobalamin (B12 with a methyl molecule) as a much higher absorption rate, retains in muscles longer, and is more metabolically available for use. The alternative and normal Cyanocobalamin (B12 and a cyanide molecule) absorbs at a less than 1% rate. You have to spend a lot of money on cyanocobalamin and take a lot more to get not even equal results. The claims are the cyanide are at influential levels but that doesn't take into consideration you need take several 5mg pills a day to get anywhere near what your body needs long term.

Just a note. I have read about a famous vegan like the model guy here (maybe it was him) who started eating grassfed meat and had better digestion than when just a vegan. He didn't gain weight or lose shape or anything. It was the other things that made him less than his ideal, like wheat. If I find the name again I will post it.

Warren David wrote:It's fairly easy to eat meat safely. Millions of people do it every day and the vast majority suffer no problems.
There is no need to be scared of food. You just need a little knowledge about food hygiene and you can probably get through life without poisoning yourself or others to death.

It's not pathogens from meat that raw vegans have "beef" with. Protein is acid forming which causes the body to leach alkaline minerals from places like your bones. Meat also takes a long time to digest and so you are at less than full energy levels while digesting as the digestive process consumes up to 60% of the blood supply and the last reason I will list is that it moves slowly through your intestines resulting in buildup, constipation and foul odor.

A lot of people think we need meat for muscle, IE: how do you get muscle without eating meat? Well, what do animals such as cows or horses eat? Mind you that they do no exercise yet have extreme amounts of muscle? Also, what about the monkeys? Even the great apes eat 75% carbohydrates, the other large primates eat 85% or more carbohydrate and these animals are much stronger than even athletes.

Jesus Martinez

Posts: 176

1

posted 7 years ago

elspru Hatfield wrote: You know, in most of the world,
I'm thinking Asia in particular,
white skin is the highest prize.

But you definitely need more exposure to sun. Exposing your skin to sun is one of the most healthy things you can do for your skin. It helps kill pathogens and of course generates vitamin D in a form that is storable.

I'm a raw foodist and I will say that I would prefer the other dudes body type to yours. Part of being healthy involves more than just eating the right foods. It's also about exercising rigorously and regularly. It's why you can find people that look fit with big muscles, low body fat, etc that eat super poorly but have no measurable negative health indicators such as diabetes, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc, yet you can find a fat person that does no exercising but eats exactly the same as the previous person and has diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

Jesus Martinez

Posts: 176

1

posted 7 years ago

Kota McCoy wrote: Just a couple of points. We are omnivores. Paleo diets probably contained far more insects, grubs and the like than red meat---very good because of the omegas and other essential fatty acids. Vegan diets are way too much work to get right and balanced.

People seem to think that early humans did nothing but successfully kill animals and then eat them. A more likely paleo scenario for our diet IMO is that of the apes. They spend most of their time eating fruits in a tropical area and munching on bugs and they occasionally get real meat. In hunter/gatherer societies, the gathering is what provided most food calories. Yes, we are omnivores, but it doesn't mean we should eat mostly meat, our history is that of eating mostly plants and our ability to eat meat is what enabled us to leave the abundant fruit supply of the tropics. And to use an analogy: if we were meant to be mostly carnivorous, we would water at the mouth for the chance to tear open a living animal with our bare teeth and enjoy the warm blood filling our mouths, but before you claim bunk - that we have never been exposed to that so we aren't trained to like it, take any house dog or cat that has been raised on dry dog food and see how they respond to the same thing. My guess is that they eat up before you know what went on!

Posts: 55

posted 7 years ago

raindog Hatfield wrote:

Warren David wrote:It's fairly easy to eat meat safely. Millions of people do it every day and the vast majority suffer no problems.
There is no need to be scared of food. You just need a little knowledge about food hygiene and you can probably get through life without poisoning yourself or others to death.

It's not pathogens from meat that raw vegans have "beef" with. Protein is acid forming which causes the body to leach alkaline minerals from places like your bones. Meat also takes a long time to digest and so you are at less than full energy levels while digesting as the digestive process consumes up to 60% of the blood supply and the last reason I will list is that it moves slowly through your intestines resulting in buildup, constipation and foul odor.

That is just not true for everyone.

For instances people that are non-secretors often report that eating no carbohydrates is the only way for them to eliminate their bodily pains, autoimmunity, cholesterol, and more. They only eat vegetables, eggs, fruit, and meat.

Further more different people have different levels of digestive power. It is easy to conclude that for some meat would be constipating and result in a poor gut flora circumstance.

Did you know the symptoms for gastric reflux come from both too much and too little stomach acid, yet get treated the same? Different people have different levels of stomach acid as well as different levels of enzymes in their digestive track.

Blood Type O people (most) seem to need meat in order to secret enough IAP, that will break the adhesion of bacteria to the intestinal wall. Different blood groups have different enteric bacteria. (it might seem like a confusing bit to read but the idea was that the digestive tracks they tried to introduce different bacterias too that seemed beneficial would balance back out to their enteric state, instead of continuing to thrive. Essentially they had little to no food; they didn't see the blood antigen as food whereas other bacteria did, the enteric ones.)

All communities with more fish in their diet historically have been taller, leaner, and with less heart disease as well. I apologize for not having a link to this at the moment but if you look up any art from anywhere around the world inland vs. coastal it will be instantly apparent (not that art is the real proof, skeletal remains are).

There are cases to make for a lot of raw food and veganish ideas, but only for the right people. Not everyone is the same.

Jesus Martinez

Posts: 176

1

posted 7 years ago

That is just not true for everyone.

We are all homosapiens. Have you ever heard of a horse thriving on meat? The idea that our bodies somehow require drastically differing diets to me is absurd. We vary from the primates by 2-4% and from each other by less than 0.5%. The idea that somehow with so little genetic difference would cause such a profound difference on such a complex system in our body is to me far fetched.

For instances people that are non-secretors often report that eating no carbohydrates is the only way for them to eliminate their bodily pains, autoimmunity, cholesterol, and more. They only eat vegetables, eggs, fruit, and meat.

Further more different people have different levels of digestive power. It is easy to conclude that for some meat would be constipating and result in a poor gut flora circumstance.

All dependent upon one's diet and other health issues. If one eats only easily digestible things, one cannot digest much of anything very effectively. Digestion is something that will improve through regular consumption of the food that is being poorly digested, unless you are having a reaction to it such as Colitis.

Did you know the symptoms for gastric reflux come from both too much and too little stomach acid, yet get treated the same? Different people have different levels of stomach acid as well as different levels of enzymes in their digestive track.

I did know this. The differing levels of enzymes are not however due to differing genetic makeup, but to dietary and external factors.

Blood Type O people (most) seem to need meat in order to secret enough IAP, that will break the adhesion of bacteria to the intestinal wall. Different blood groups have different enteric bacteria. (it might seem like a confusing bit to read but the idea was that the digestive tracks they tried to introduce different bacterias too that seemed beneficial would balance back out to their enteric state, instead of continuing to thrive. Essentially they had little to no food; they didn't see the blood antigen as food whereas other bacteria did, the enteric ones.)

I believe that people with differing blood types have different bacteria, but I would imagine that there is significant overlap. There are specific bacteria that grow on our wrists that is different from the species that grows on our elbows. IMO so called blood type or other diets are a total scam with little if any scientific and mostly anecdotal evidence to support their claims.

All communities with more fish in their diet historically have been taller, leaner, and with less heart disease as well. I apologize for not having a link to this at the moment but if you look up any art from anywhere around the world inland vs. coastal it will be instantly apparent (not that art is the real proof, skeletal remains are).

That explains why the japanese are such giants and that the addition of dairy to their diet has caused them to shrink. (It's the opposite actually, but I see what your point is).

There are cases to make for a lot of raw food and veganish ideas, but only for the right people. Not everyone is the same.

The so called type based diets IMO are a total scam. They are not based on sound diet and I think their successes can be attributed to the fact that when one follows them they are likely following a healthier diet all around, not because they are a type "afg" that does well with protein but carbs cause them problems. We don't see examples of extreme diet differences among animal species in order for them to maintain optimal health so why do we find it so believable that humans do?

IMO we have two major reasons for poor health from consumption of a food.
1. It is filled with harmful chemicals such as dyes.
2. Food allergies (these IMO are so pervasive today due to the wide use of pesticide/herbicide/fungicide)

Posts: 55

posted 7 years ago

Good luck finding studies showing GMO food is the downfall of human health. Currently they are not pointing in that direction. Currently there is no treatment associated with GMO or food dye type stuff. The only thing you will find is people being treated for metal toxicity (chelation therapy). GMO food may not be as good for us, but it is better than no vegetables. GMO food is created when proteins (lectins) are taken from one plant and spliced into another. Unless this lectin is specifically bad for you (and in some cases it is, but not that many) then it is not an issue; the issues are with the low nutrients in unfertile pesticide ridden monocultures that are subsidized. The practices of making food more valuable (to a few selling), destroying land, putting farmers in debt, and waiting for the next virus are a problem. If you said processed foods that would be another story since there are tons of studies about that. However you can have organic equivalents of processed food that are just as bad because of the levels of things in them (oil and sugar in copious amounts for example).

Food allergies are very complicated. However they un-complicate themselves when you start realize a few things. First reactions to different allergies are worsened by bad gut flora. Next if you don't consume things you biologically are best not to eat then your reactions will go down because you will be making less antibodies. Food that makes you create antibodies against all foods you already do, does not cause a reaction necessarily but will make the next one worse. It becomes a "friendly fire" situation at high levels. Did you know that gut flora balances will cause food sensitivity tests to show a person to be sensitive to more foods than they actually are? The confusion comes between bacteria interaction producing the signs of sensitivity that are in the system I believe (but would otherwise not exists if the person had good gut flora). Also people don't necessarily make antibodies against pesticides etc... so the connection to allergies is not as strong as you might want it to be, but rather cause other problems within the body. For example if someone has trouble eliminating toxins they may begin to deplete iron stores (an anti-oxidant for many people, dependent on it), and and begin to weaken their blood, strain their blood marrow, etc... The load on them may not even be associated with allergies but is very real. They may feel bad but not know why. The body is just too vastly complicated to say allergies are the function of everything. A lot of people don't have any allergies but have lots of problems...

Surprisingly despite the fast differences between people's biological makeup with blood type and phenotypes, they all need protein, all do well to eat vegetables, etc... It is more a specific situation of whether someone will benefit from one or another of something in the same category of nutrients (soy vs. beef per say, both protein).

Currently many doctors I have heard about, or people I know have been treated by, are accepting that everyone is different. They don't prescribe a specific diet but they do actually put people on elimination diets, and then have them slowly re-introduce food after awhile. This is being done because young doctors are not naive enough to believe we are all the same, and the acceptance that old practices are failing us in so many ways.

Oh and please don't criticize the blood type diet for not having any science behind it. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are real criticisms, and I think many have yet to be addressed. However science is not one of them. The current defining topic of definition of if it works or not is the fact that a double blind study has never been performed. There are a lot of researchers that say Dr. D'Adamo has appropriated their work in a way they did not intend so they can not validate his work through theirs. You would need a degree in micro-biology to even discuss much of anything with Dr. D'Adamo who has been designing software like that, and writing 800 page text books that most people in the biology field struggle with; while simultaneously making it all into college courses for Bridgeport University.

Besides what is your answer to the people on the paleo diet who are thriving, have diseases remission? It happens when people go vegan too. There are reasons for all of this... What is so offensive about the idea of a diet that works for you, and one that works for someone else?

Funny you mention Japanese because they firmly believe blood type determines personality. Also talking about people eating fish, it is not a comparison between the height of Japanese to Native Americans, it is a comparison between Native Americans to Native Americans or Japanese to Japaneses. (although somewhat irrelevant since Japan is an island with a rich history of spreading fish in-land. By the way they have lower rates of heart disease.

Anyway until I see other diets putting people in, at regular frequency, remission of disease, be supported by not only research but someone who understands in at the greatest depth there is to know, I will stick to the best information available. (for instances Dr. Mercola means well but doesn't actually understand much about science, he has some pretty false things on his website about cancer)

Strange that you have an interest in believing anything about alternative farming, sustainability, energy consumption, etc... but have taken on shitty-ass journalism recycled for over a decade about something you have not even been skeptical enough to try; particularly when it represents alternatives to the status-quo in food making enterprise.

But please... maybe you can provide me with information I have not been privy too! Here is a short less of things I would like to get some comprehension on within the vegan raw food diet.

1. Insulin resistance, how does raw veganism deal with this?
2. How do you stabilize raw vegans digestion that has turned into nothing but diarrhea (and they never cheat) (this happens)
3. What is natural about having to supplement B12?
4. Why did Dave The Trucker never lose all the weight? (it's not just skin)
5. Why are there endless posts on raw/vegan forums about depression? What are they doing wrong?
6. Are farms more stable without critters on them, in a permaculture sense?
7. What should we do with domesticated animals that can't be let loose into the wild except to die without extensive breeding programs to bring back their ability to survive on their own, do we keep them as pets?

Jesus Martinez

Posts: 176

1

posted 7 years ago

Kull Conquered wrote:Good luck finding studies showing GMO food is the downfall of human health. Currently they are not pointing in that direction.

If I'm not mistaken, it sounds like you are supporting them because of this? There are several animal studies whose authors have essentially had their careers ended because their studies demonstrated adverse animal health defects.

Kull Conquered wrote:Besides what is your answer to the people on the paleo diet who are thriving, have diseases remission? It happens when people go vegan too. There are reasons for all of this... [/quote
It happens because a paleo diet is much healthier than the standard diet. You eat a lot of quality meats and a lot of vegetables while cutting out grains and processed foods. On a scale of good better best, I would rate the paleo diet as good, I would rate it as good/better but it is too easy to concentrate on eating only animal products and neglect vegetables nearly altogether.

Kull Conquered wrote:What is so offensive about the idea of a diet that works for you, and one that works for someone else?

IMO they are pushing services/knowledge for personal gain and using their background in order to establish subject expertise with their customers whose knowledge of health is largely lacking.

You can go the Dr Gabriel Cousins way and forgo all simple carbohydrates and eat essentially leafy green vegetables, nuts, seeds and avocados or you can go the Dr Doug Graham way and eschew the fats in your diet - this is the diet I have selected and I made my decision based on the number of extremely athletic individuals also following Dr. Graham's diet. As a side, I think Dr Graham has a much better holistic approach to health as his method involves both healthy eating and healthy lifestyles(IE: exercise). Apparently the reason humans have problems with insulin resistance is due to consumption of carbohydrate with fat. Fat in the blood stream blocks the role of insulin in moving glucose into cells, hence the more fat in your blood stream, the more insulin is needed to move glucose about which ultimately leads to resistance. When there is no fat in the blood stream insulin functions as designed and there is no insulin resistance formed. There have been studies on rats predisposed to diabetes where they were fed diets of essentially 0% fat and 100% carbs and the rats did not get diabetes. There is anecdotal evidence of this working in humans too as a diet similar to 80/10/10 has been used to "cure" or send into remission diabetes in humans too.

I didn't mention before but what I believe to be the key to a healthy diet is that when you eat, you must not eat both a high fat and high carbohydrate diet. Numerous things point towards being able to achieve health eating high fat/protein and eating almost only carbs, but nothing I've found suggests that eating a blended diet of fat/protein/carbs will yield good results.

Kull Conquered wrote:2. How do you stabilize raw vegans digestion that has turned into nothing but diarrhea (and they never cheat) (this happens)
I never had this problem. I do have frequent bowel movements though but it is far from diarrhea, granted certain foods do make my stool softer than others but if I stick to my regular diet and do not consume a lot of watermelon seeds, or undigestable seeds in general, I don't have this problem. I can eat only apples, only oranges, only bananas, only cherries, etc and not get this problem whereas when I was on a regular diet if I did, eating only cherries for example would go through me like a water cannon.

Kull Conquered wrote:3. What is natural about having to supplement B12?

Harley Johnstone has raw food meat eating roommates (yes, they eat pounds of raw meat a day he says) that still have b12 deficiency issues. B12 deficiency is not just a vegan/vegetarian issue. BTW, where do vegan animals (cows, lets say) get their b12? From the plants they eat! B12 is produced by a bacteria that lives on the surface of plants. Once you wash them you wash the bacteria. Secondly, it requires a source of cobalt in order to be produced so if your soil is depleted of cobalt, such as what convential ag soils likely are to be, you will not get B12 either. I take a b12 supplement and eat my unwashed produce (you can see my garden and what I plan to eventually turn into a food forest here: www.youtube.com/user/therawlifefamily).

Kull Conquered wrote:4. Why did Dave The Trucker never lose all the weight? (it's not just skin)

You are right, he is still a pretty big guy. My guess is that he eats a lot of nuts, seeds and avocados and does not exercise enough if at all. You cannot achieve great health without frequent vigorous exercise and anyone who claims otherwise is wrong.

Kull Conquered wrote:5. Why are there endless posts on raw/vegan forums about depression? What are they doing wrong?

If I had to guess it is most likely b12 or vitamin d issues or perhaps the raw/vegan diet attracts people who are already depressed. It's quite easy to eat IMO an unhealthy "raw vegan" diet. There are "raw" junk foods made with agave (which is not raw and is likely just corn syrup) and cacao that are both high fat and high sugar and very unhealthy.

Kull Conquered wrote:6. Are farms more stable without critters on them, in a permaculture sense?

IMO critters are essential to functioning agricultural systems, and even more so in permaculture. I follow the 80/10/10 diet for health not moral reasons, so you will get some hardcore vegans who will be hatin.

Gabriel Cousins uses a veganic gardening approach but I believe that veganic gardening is nearly as unsustainable as conventional sources.

Kull Conquered wrote:7. What should we do with domesticated animals that can't be let loose into the wild except to die without extensive breeding programs to bring back their ability to survive on their own, do we keep them as pets?

I have no problems with pets. I think humans have had animal companions for a long time and there is nothing wrong with it. Again, I think animals are friends, not food.

Posts: 55

posted 7 years ago

Thank you for replying.

When it comes to animals consuming GMO products... It is not an issue of GMO so much as cows are not meant to eat grains, etc. I think you might notice, if you read what I typed again, that in no way to I support GMO; I just see the problems not being associated as much with the consumption of GMO since removal of GMO often has no real effect on people that already cooked in a more wholesome way (nothing pre-made). I believe everything about GMO food is wrong. The practices of the farms, businesses, loans, Monsanto, etc, are some of the most offensive in the world to me. That however doesn't validate claims that don't seem to be supported much at all.

The Paleo diet with lots of meat is to me entirely different from being vegan. The claims about bacterial issues, digestion, etc... I would agree though that any diet that puts emphasis on consumption of vegetables to be good. There is no excuse to not eat them; they are health. However not all vegetables benefit all people. For example you could never make peppers good for me. I doubt I have a technical allergy to them but they ruin my circulation after consuming (known to thicken blood). The information that I recommend is founded in eating a wide array of food, especially vegetables. However being more specific has allowed people to truly heal.

I don't see your connection to the opposition for different diets for different people. If there was a very clear money incentive then I would totally understand but... there just isn't in the case of Dr. D'Adamo. Also I don't see any claims about telling people there is something more wrong with them by setting different principles for health. The recommendations for a healthy person is just to follow a very basic diet, yet there are offerings to go as deep into phenotype and health aspects as someone could want to go. Also I don't know your history but... for so many people they are looking for serious answers, not illnesses. You might look at all health food ideas as being pandering to hypochondriacs (actually the wrong word, hypochondriacs do have a symptom), but if you haven't experienced poor health there is no way for you to comprehend how fucking stupid and unhelpful the westernized medicine world happens to be, or the annoyance of feeling terrible when trying an extreme diet (which raw or paleo I would both say are).

Your explanation of insulin resistance is a bit odd. Resistance is not stimulated from producing too much insulin. That is a per-cursor to diabetes however (over-active insulin and too much blood sugar). Insulin resistance can just mean the metabolism is very slow. In the explanation you gave the insulin resistance would be occurring because of the fat in the blood stream preventing the use of insulin to the cells. Fats can't not be eaten really... Omega 3's are responsible for too much. Insulin resistance in many individuals is caused by the binding of insulin receptors by things that don't let go. A lot of people argue the time elapsed is too short to count but when the offending protein is removed, the insulin resistance decreases. One example. Also different things cause elevated triglycerides. By the way many people who are overweight don't have high triglycerides at all (fat in blood) so while for some it may cause problems with metabolic rate, it is not the "standard answer" for all.

I am sure insects and bacteria produce B12 that you find on plants. However you will find things like ungulates ferment bacteria, or non-human primates eat bugs too. There is no relation to humans and this aspects. Either we would need to eat bugs, chew cud, or have more stomachs, to get the same benefit. Our digestive tracks are designed in-between carnivores (short) and herbivores (longer, many have multiple stomachs, and may chew cud). B12 deficiency and still eat meat? That is laughable when the meat is uncooked. The medical world calls it intrinsic value. When old people lose it they need B12 supplementation or injection. The official term is pernicious anemia. It is believed to be not recoverable but that is not true. I have been through it myself with no unwashed produce in my life. Blood Type A people have the most trouble with this... If you lack digestive power (covered some earlier with the IAP study) you will have a harder time keeping a good gut flora, obviously. Also things hard to digest that are not fully digested are perfect food for bad bacteria that never leaves your digestive track. Old people are actually experiencing this, creating a block to B12 digestion. It is measured by the way protein is digested by bacteria, called an indican test. For type A it is an overall thing because the likelihood is that stress is too high combined with poor diet also increasing stress. They naturally have high levels.

For someone that has never lost intrinsic value (you would know, things are not digested properly) it would take many years to see B12 deficiency arise. Minor supplementation by eating unwashed plants (and maybe fermentation by having slow digestion from a diet that doesn't entirely stimulate the body how it should) could certainly offset the time, but we do see people dropping dead mid-life from B12 deficiencies. You see paleo people dieing early too; colon cancer not uncommon. Then you see people that what they eat has no effect at all on them, they are just healthy.

That is something funny to me among nearly any diet or westernized ideas of health. The belief that some people just can't do everything right so they fail at attaining health while others are healthy and hardly try at all. It is not a self control thing very often. Ever hear of the banana girl? She eats 30-40 bananas a day and has a swim suit model body... I have met all sorts of people that eat stupid ways yet are doing better than those that try their hardest. The only time I see the people that try very hard succeed (but always fail otherwise) is when they radically change their approach and start with a diet that heals (D'Adamo's work). I think Dave The Trucker likely does exercise and eat just raw plants basically but that isn't enough to heal him. To me it is unfair to put the expectation of something that worked for you, Dan, or someone else, on him as the only viable solution. It might just take something that fits him because he is no one else.

I totally disagree with your exercise ideas. Type A blood people with high cortisol usually have trouble losing weight with vigorous exercise. Some even get cancer before weight loss because of lowered immunity (seriously know a lady that had that happen). I myself have been subject to this even while eating a vegetarian diet (not in a totally ideal fashion). Expending thousands of calories more per day then consuming does not always equal fat loss, I promise. The most weight I ever lost was when I jogged lightly and ate like pig excluding red meat (including lots of sugar, wheat, milk products, etc), and that predated vegetarian/vegan. I was actually vegan for a fair amount of my "vigorous exercise" and ate zero sugar... and lost no weight. My consumption of fats hardly existed. The medical field calls this "metabolic syndrome X". However if I were blood type O and had excess adrenaline preventing my dopamine action (a precursor to adrenaline, so it is more like the body made all the feel good stuff into adrenaline so you have to get rid of some) vigorous exercise would allow me to feel good. Despite the fact I can be a decent runner at times, I feel numb and on edge afterwards - not good. I like frequent exercise, but vigorous? Hm I wouldn't call active yoga vigorous. I am with you that everyone needs exercise though, just not on the type of it.

On a personal note I have to say while I like animals... I believe the world is too romantic to not have an aspect of the "circle of life" where animals eat animals. It is scary, but man it has such a level of romanticism so hard to understand and appreciate that at least there is something out there that I can ponder and explore. It is just so beautiful to come to a kind of understanding with death, and consuming an animal. To make the decision that the value of yourself or those around you warrants taking another life, yet find an immense respect in it; such an existential experience so profound that people have based entire cultures and religions around it for thousands of years. I am thankful for that. To me something as simple as "animal is friend" is just insulting the capability of the human mind with disregard for the awe of something so big that people created the conceptions of Gods to explain it. I could go on and on but... I will I say I feel if everyone got to first hand experience, and deal with, a dead animal then maybe they could find the respect animals deserve and stop treating them money makers in feed lots. They are more romantic... use them to nurture your land then eat them, but continue the cycle.

Jesus Martinez

Posts: 176

1

posted 7 years ago

Kull Conquered wrote: I don't see your connection to the opposition for different diets for different people. If there was a very clear money incentive then I would totally understand but... there just isn't in the case of Dr. D'Adamo.

I'm not familiar with D'Adamo, but he is not the only person pushing a blood type or body type diet.

Kull Conquered wrote:but if you haven't experienced poor health there is no way for you to comprehend how fucking stupid and unhelpful the westernized medicine world happens to be, or the annoyance of feeling terrible when trying an extreme diet (which raw or paleo I would both say are).

I've never been in what I would call poor health, but I've had RA since i was 12 and chronic allergies. I went from 220 lbs to about 175lbs following 80/10/10 diet and after adding rigorous exercise I've gained about 15 lbs of muscle. Previously I would consider my self addicted to junk food but apparently blessed with at least a decent enough metabolism to prevent myself from 300lbs+, my day job is extremely sedentary, computer security researcher.

Kull Conquered wrote:However you will find things like ungulates ferment bacteria, or non-human primates eat bugs too. There is no relation to humans and this aspects. Either we would need to eat bugs, chew cud, or have more stomachs, to get the same benefit.

Not sure what you are saying. If we get b12 from food sources we only need enough intrinsic factor (you call it intrinsic value, but it's factor). The body only produces enough intrinsic factor under the most optimal conditions to absorb 100mcg b12 a day. This is why even oral methylcobalamin supplementation can fail to elevate b12 levels. It strikes me odd, and I won't quote it, but you mention all of the reasons why someone might not be able to absorb dietary sources of b12 and find laughable my suggestion that raw meat eaters might also suffer b12 deficiency. Intrinsic factor is produced in the stomach when the ph of the stomach acid reaches a certain level, anything above that and it won't form well, thus, you could be taking grams of b12 supplementation orally but be totally incapable of absorbing any of it therefor resulting in deficiency.

Kull Conquered wrote:Ever hear of the banana girl? She eats 30-40 bananas a day and has a swim suit model body...

And if you knew what she looked like before all of her diet and exercise... she was anorexic/bulemic and unhealthy. She looks like she does because of vigorous exercise and strict diet. She was also able to overcome food addiction. Which reminds me of something else, most people don't realize the extent of their own food addictions because unlike meth and heroin, eating is something we have to do everyday, and ideally multiple times a day in order to live and the hard part about overcoming them is really societal based. The family of a heroin addict is never going to say, hey, we;re shooting up, a little won't hurt your recovery effort. But that's what we get from everyone around us as we try to eat healthy; "hey, a few fries won't hurt", "It's only a half a cookie, it can't hurt you.", etc and repeated constantly.

Kull Conquered wrote:I totally disagree with your exercise ideas. Type A blood people with high cortisol usually have trouble losing weight with vigorous exercise.

This is why the combination of proper diet *and* exercise is important. My brother in law is 60lbs overweight yet has insane endurance. He runs miles a day but eats like crap.

Kull Conquered wrote:...and ate zero sugar

In my opinion, that was why you didn't lose weight. You had to have been eating far too much fat and were not aware of exactly how much you were eating. Unless you logged everything you ate and had an accurate caloric break down, if you ate no sugars you were eating all fat.

The medical field will also tell us that we as a society have an SSRI deficiency or other chemical imbalance requiring lifelong medication. Similar with diabetes type 2, they would have you believe it is an incurable disease but able to be managed with a lifelong supply of diet soda and metformin.

Kull Conquered wrote:I like frequent exercise, but vigorous?

For proper bone health you need a lot of strain on your bones. You need to either move heavy weights or find some other way to place a constant load on them, perhaps running, etc.

Kull Conquered wrote: To make the decision that the value of yourself or those around you warrants taking another life, yet find an immense respect in it; such an existential experience so profound that people have based entire cultures and religions around it for thousands of years. I am thankful for that.

And to me it just says you like killing things because you enjoy killing things. Meat was a way for us to survive the winters where nothing grew, we no longer have that problem and thus meat should be obsolete as a food source IMO. To kill something because my life is more valuable than its life is and I require the food from it is to me a false argument. Never in today's society are we faced with a "i have to kill an animal to eat it or i will die" situation, it's always a "hmm, i'm craving meat so let me take the life of a helpless animal".