Rain Partier

Thor's hammer is enchanted. that means it's been gifted with certain strengths and powers by magic, but in and of itself it does very little "magic" itself. it can call down/create storms (which in and of themselves are only "magical" in that they appear where they shouldn't; Thor doesn't make special lightning that turns water into a flagon of mead when it strikes it), it can create dimensional vortexes when swung really fast with some magical aid attached to it, it can change Thor into his civilian identity, it automatically returns to Thor's hand, can only be lifted by he who is worthy, and a couple other little things. these are enchantments placed on the hammer, not magic which the hammer does itself. the hammer doesn't just point at people and turn them to toads like say Zatanna or Doc Strange can do.

Thor slapping the average Joe with his hammer doesn't paste said Joe because it's magic, it's because it's a solid metal hammer swung with the strength of a Class-100 (or 80, or 90, or whatever he was, to bust out some old-school OHOTMU jargon) god of thunder. if Thor swung a 5-dollar claw hammer from the local Home Depot it'd pulp an average Joe.

This is a standard but flawed response to the Mjonlir argument (yes, you've drenched yourself in enough nerd juice to be in an argument about a frickin' hammer...)

Thor's hammer is the epitome of a magical device. it was crafted from Uru metal, which is already magical, and further enchanted by the dwarves who forged the bloody thing on an enchanted forge. If this weapon does not classify as inherently, innately magical, then we might as well replace the word with "bob".

But of course, this is where the inconsistency comes in. The claws of a demon or the fangs of a vampire are somehow more innately magical than an enchanted hammer forged from enchanted metal, wielded by a god.

Okay.

If we refuse to consider Mjolnir an innately, inherently magical item, then we might as well remove the word "magic" from the comic book lexicon.

The very metal from which it was forged is enchanted, Chap.

And yes, it's being swung by a guy who can lift airliners. At a guy whose resistance to magic is no more significant or superhuman than a normal person's.

If it is to be an appreciable drawback instead of some horseshit writers pull occassionally from their ass to explain why Superman can't open a door wedged firmly into the plot, then it must comprise some sort of palpable downside to his superhuman ability. If he gets hit but an inherently magical device and sucks it up like a guy gifted with superhuman resistance to injury, it's not a drawback. If he resists it like a normal human, then what happens to him should logically be the same thing that would happen to a normal human struck by Mjolnir, in the hands of Thor at full force.

Which would be messy.

Which would also end the fight in a panel or two.

Which would be unacceptable to the fans and writers alike.

Which relegates it to the realm of an inconsistent weakness/vulnerability/drawback that serves the needs of the story and nothing else.

Supes' vulnerability to magic is more along the lines of: if Tannarak or Ian Karkull or Dormammu or somebody spun a spell to put people to sleep, or change them into frogs, etc, Supes' "invulnerability" doesn't stop that. he'd be sawing logs or ribbiting just like you or me. he can't disrupt a magic force field just by giving it a love-tap. if somebody tries to send him to a mystical nether-dimension, he better hope he packed a toothbrush in his cape pocket. but facing somebody with magic-imbued strength doesn't automatically mean his punches have no effect, or that he can't use his heat vision to fry 'em. his strength and his powers are still there, and still work. he just has to make the fight one of physicality, not his powers against spells.

Ain't nobody said he couldn't still use his super strength or heat vision. But if say, excalibur would chop a normal human's belly open, then it's chopping Superman's belly open too.

IF he resists magic as a normal human would. And IF it's being written consistently. Which I contend it isn't.

Thor's hammer is enchanted. that means it's been gifted with certain strengths and powers by magic, but in and of itself it does very little "magic" itself. it can call down/create storms (which in and of themselves are only "magical" in that they appear where they shouldn't; Thor doesn't make special lightning that turns water into a flagon of mead when it strikes it), it can create dimensional vortexes when swung really fast with some magical aid attached to it, it can change Thor into his civilian identity, it automatically returns to Thor's hand, can only be lifted by he who is worthy, and a couple other little things. these are enchantments placed on the hammer, not magic which the hammer does itself. the hammer doesn't just point at people and turn them to toads like say Zatanna or Doc Strange can do.

Thor slapping the average Joe with his hammer doesn't paste said Joe because it's magic, it's because it's a solid metal hammer swung with the strength of a Class-100 (or 80, or 90, or whatever he was, to bust out some old-school OHOTMU jargon) god of thunder. if Thor swung a 5-dollar claw hammer from the local Home Depot it'd pulp an average Joe.

This is a standard but flawed response to the Mjonlir argument (yes, you've drenched yourself in enough nerd juice to be in an argument about a frickin' hammer...)

Thor's hammer is the epitome of a magical device. it was crafted from Uru metal, which is already magical, and further enchanted by the dwarves who forged the bloody thing on an enchanted forge. If this weapon does not classify as inherently, innately magical, then we might as well replace the word with "bob".

But of course, this is where the inconsistency comes in. The claws of a demon or the fangs of a vampire are somehow more innately magical than an enchanted hammer forged from enchanted metal, wielded by a god.

Okay.

If we refuse to consider Mjolnir an innately, inherently magical item, then we might as well remove the word "magic" from the comic book lexicon.

The very metal from which it was forged is enchanted, Chap.

And yes, it's being swung by a guy who can lift airliners. At a guy whose resistance to magic is no more significant or superhuman than a normal person's.

If it is to be an appreciable drawback instead of some horseshit writers pull occassionally from their ass to explain why Superman can't open a door wedged firmly into the plot, then it must comprise some sort of palpable downside to his superhuman ability. If he gets hit but an inherently magical device and sucks it up like a guy gifted with superhuman resistance to injury, it's not a drawback. If he resists it like a normal human, then what happens to him should logically be the same thing that would happen to a normal human struck by Mjolnir, in the hands of Thor at full force.

Which would be messy.

Which would also end the fight in a panel or two.

Which would be unacceptable to the fans and writers alike.

Which relegates it to the realm of an inconsistent weakness/vulnerability/drawback that serves the needs of the story and nothing else.

Supes' vulnerability to magic is more along the lines of: if Tannarak or Ian Karkull or Dormammu or somebody spun a spell to put people to sleep, or change them into frogs, etc, Supes' "invulnerability" doesn't stop that. he'd be sawing logs or ribbiting just like you or me. he can't disrupt a magic force field just by giving it a love-tap. if somebody tries to send him to a mystical nether-dimension, he better hope he packed a toothbrush in his cape pocket. but facing somebody with magic-imbued strength doesn't automatically mean his punches have no effect, or that he can't use his heat vision to fry 'em. his strength and his powers are still there, and still work. he just has to make the fight one of physicality, not his powers against spells.

Ain't nobody said he couldn't still use his super strength or heat vision. But if say, excalibur would chop a normal human's belly open, then it's chopping Superman's belly open too.

IF he resists magic as a normal human would. And IF it's being written consistently. Which I contend it isn't.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."

Rain Partier

Strict31 wrote:This is a standard but flawed response to the Mjonlir argument (yes, you've drenched yourself in enough nerd juice to be in an argument about a frickin' hammer...)

Thor's hammer is the epitome of a magical device. it was crafted from Uru metal, which is already magical, and further enchanted by the dwarves who forged the bloody thing on an enchanted forge. If this weapon does not classify as inherently, innately magical, then we might as well replace the word with "bob".

But of course, this is where the inconsistency comes in. The claws of a demon or the fangs of a vampire are somehow more innately magical than an enchanted hammer forged from enchanted metal, wielded by a god.

Okay.

If we refuse to consider Mjolnir an innately, inherently magical item, then we might as well remove the word "magic" from the comic book lexicon.

The very metal from which it was forged is enchanted, Chap.

And yes, it's being swung by a guy who can lift airliners. At a guy whose resistance to magic is no more significant or superhuman than a normal person's.

If it is to be an appreciable drawback instead of some horseshit writers pull occassionally from their ass to explain why Superman can't open a door wedged firmly into the plot, then it must comprise some sort of palpable downside to his superhuman ability. If he gets hit but an inherently magical device and sucks it up like a guy gifted with superhuman resistance to injury, it's not a drawback. If he resists it like a normal human, then what happens to him should logically be the same thing that would happen to a normal human struck by Mjolnir, in the hands of Thor at full force.

Which would be messy.

Which would also end the fight in a panel or two.

Which would be unacceptable to the fans and writers alike.

Which relegates it to the realm of an inconsistent weakness/vulnerability/drawback that serves the needs of the story and nothing else.

and i contend that it is neither standard nor flawed. it's not standard because most folks, as you are doing, fail to differentiate still between magical (or if you prefer "of magic") and something that does magic.

uru metal has magical properties, sure. none of those include "immediate unconsciousification of anyone it hits" or "cuts through adamantium like a hot knife trough butter". it channels energy, and it hits real hard. that's pretty much the extent of its magical properties. neither of those really do much to Superman.

and yeah, you can argue that magic is merely channeled energy (which i agree, does make the representation of what magic actually is and can do in multiple media very sketchy), but let's get down to it: magic is a unique form of enegy channeled in such a unique way as to make impossible and/or improbable things happen. for instance: people into animals; thin air into impregnable force fields; the Clippers into a championship franchise; Michael Hawk desirable to females; you see where i'm going here.

OTOH, the kinds of energy Mjolnir channels are winds, lightning, etc. not magical lightning that changes a 10-year-old radio journalist into the world's mightiest mortal, just good ol' regular "burn your tree to a crisp" lightning. just because it's called down by magic instead of an excess positive charge due to polarization mechanism (or whatever your preferred theory) doesn't mean it's going to do any more harm to Supes than a regular bolt of lightning will. because the lightning itself is not magical, the act of calling it is.

Thor doesn't cast spells. his hammer doesn't cut. his lightning is just lightning. as such, he really isn't going to affect Superman any more than another guy who's super strong, violent as fuck, and can shoot lightning will. Clea, OTOH, would wipe the floor with his ass with a quickness.

Ain't nobody said he couldn't still use his super strength or heat vision. But if say, excalibur would chop a normal human's belly open, then it's chopping Superman's belly open too.

IF he resists magic as a normal human would. And IF it's being written consistently. Which I contend it isn't.

but we're not talking about Excalibur, a sharp sword made for slicing. we're talking about Mjolnir, a flat hammer made for striking. Mjolnir hits real hard. but that's it. the Hulk withstands blows from Mjolnir. Juggernaut. the Wrecker. Frost Giants. Goliath. Mr. Hyde. and on and on. Superman can too. because even though the hammer's magical, at the end of the day it's just applying force, not magic. Superman can withstand force.

i will, in a mild concession, say that this is a confusing pint, b/c you're right, it has been inconsistently applied, and has probably never been properly described in the first place. as i see it, Superman is just as vulnerable to magic spells and the powers of a magic artifact (such as WW's lasso of truth) as a human. but just because something has been touched by magic doesn't mean it's automatically going to negate his powers. i.e., tying him up in the lasso will force him to tell the truth, but slapping him upside the head with it won't knock him out.

Rain Partier

Strict31 wrote:This is a standard but flawed response to the Mjonlir argument (yes, you've drenched yourself in enough nerd juice to be in an argument about a frickin' hammer...)

Thor's hammer is the epitome of a magical device. it was crafted from Uru metal, which is already magical, and further enchanted by the dwarves who forged the bloody thing on an enchanted forge. If this weapon does not classify as inherently, innately magical, then we might as well replace the word with "bob".

But of course, this is where the inconsistency comes in. The claws of a demon or the fangs of a vampire are somehow more innately magical than an enchanted hammer forged from enchanted metal, wielded by a god.

Okay.

If we refuse to consider Mjolnir an innately, inherently magical item, then we might as well remove the word "magic" from the comic book lexicon.

The very metal from which it was forged is enchanted, Chap.

And yes, it's being swung by a guy who can lift airliners. At a guy whose resistance to magic is no more significant or superhuman than a normal person's.

If it is to be an appreciable drawback instead of some horseshit writers pull occassionally from their ass to explain why Superman can't open a door wedged firmly into the plot, then it must comprise some sort of palpable downside to his superhuman ability. If he gets hit but an inherently magical device and sucks it up like a guy gifted with superhuman resistance to injury, it's not a drawback. If he resists it like a normal human, then what happens to him should logically be the same thing that would happen to a normal human struck by Mjolnir, in the hands of Thor at full force.

Which would be messy.

Which would also end the fight in a panel or two.

Which would be unacceptable to the fans and writers alike.

Which relegates it to the realm of an inconsistent weakness/vulnerability/drawback that serves the needs of the story and nothing else.

and i contend that it is neither standard nor flawed. it's not standard because most folks, as you are doing, fail to differentiate still between magical (or if you prefer "of magic") and something that does magic.

uru metal has magical properties, sure. none of those include "immediate unconsciousification of anyone it hits" or "cuts through adamantium like a hot knife trough butter". it channels energy, and it hits real hard. that's pretty much the extent of its magical properties. neither of those really do much to Superman.

and yeah, you can argue that magic is merely channeled energy (which i agree, does make the representation of what magic actually is and can do in multiple media very sketchy), but let's get down to it: magic is a unique form of enegy channeled in such a unique way as to make impossible and/or improbable things happen. for instance: people into animals; thin air into impregnable force fields; the Clippers into a championship franchise; Michael Hawk desirable to females; you see where i'm going here.

OTOH, the kinds of energy Mjolnir channels are winds, lightning, etc. not magical lightning that changes a 10-year-old radio journalist into the world's mightiest mortal, just good ol' regular "burn your tree to a crisp" lightning. just because it's called down by magic instead of an excess positive charge due to polarization mechanism (or whatever your preferred theory) doesn't mean it's going to do any more harm to Supes than a regular bolt of lightning will. because the lightning itself is not magical, the act of calling it is.

Thor doesn't cast spells. his hammer doesn't cut. his lightning is just lightning. as such, he really isn't going to affect Superman any more than another guy who's super strong, violent as fuck, and can shoot lightning will. Clea, OTOH, would wipe the floor with his ass with a quickness.

Ain't nobody said he couldn't still use his super strength or heat vision. But if say, excalibur would chop a normal human's belly open, then it's chopping Superman's belly open too.

IF he resists magic as a normal human would. And IF it's being written consistently. Which I contend it isn't.

but we're not talking about Excalibur, a sharp sword made for slicing. we're talking about Mjolnir, a flat hammer made for striking. Mjolnir hits real hard. but that's it. the Hulk withstands blows from Mjolnir. Juggernaut. the Wrecker. Frost Giants. Goliath. Mr. Hyde. and on and on. Superman can too. because even though the hammer's magical, at the end of the day it's just applying force, not magic. Superman can withstand force.

i will, in a mild concession, say that this is a confusing pint, b/c you're right, it has been inconsistently applied, and has probably never been properly described in the first place. as i see it, Superman is just as vulnerable to magic spells and the powers of a magic artifact (such as WW's lasso of truth) as a human. but just because something has been touched by magic doesn't mean it's automatically going to negate his powers. i.e., tying him up in the lasso will force him to tell the truth, but slapping him upside the head with it won't knock him out.

Rain Partier

chap22 wrote:and i contend that it is neither standard nor flawed. it's not standard because most folks, as you are doing, fail to differentiate still between magical (or if you prefer "of magic") and something that does magic.

This does not make sense. Something that does magic is not magical? Like, say a wand that spits out lightning, that's not magical? Should we then assume that a thing need not be magical to produce magical effects? How does that work exactly?

uru metal has magical properties, sure. none of those include "immediate unconsciousification of anyone it hits" or "cuts through adamantium like a hot knife trough butter". it channels energy, and it hits real hard. that's pretty much the extent of its magical properties. neither of those really do much to Superman.

I do not recall mentioning "immediate unconsciousification". What I do recall saying is that Mjolnir is an inherently magical device wielded by a guy strong enough to lift an airliner. I also recall saying that if Thor chose to hit a normal person full (or even half) force with mjolnir, it would turn that individual into red paste. I further recall saying that if it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human does, the logical outcome of being struck by a Mjolnir-wielding Thor, he should be turned into red paste.

I mean, among Thor's many exploits are knocking down half a mountain with Mjolnir. Mountains do not have any particular resistance to magic, so if he can do that to a mountain, imagine what he can do to a human.

and yeah, you can argue that magic is merely channeled energy (which i agree, does make the representation of what magic actually is and can do in multiple media very sketchy), but let's get down to it: magic is a unique form of enegy channeled in such a unique way as to make impossible and/or improbable things happen. for instance: people into animals; thin air into impregnable force fields; the Clippers into a championship franchise; Michael Hawk desirable to females; you see where i'm going here.

Using the exact same description, we can apply that to the Quantum Energy Captain Atom channels. or the Emerald energy the Guardians channel. Neither of which are magic, so the definition you pose would seem a bit generalized.

However, if we compromise for the sake of compromising and say "it is some sort of energy that can be channeled" then we'd have to also agree that anything that can be channeled requires at least two things: a source that generates it, and a vessel that channels or contains it.

And it is in the parlance that we must consider whether a non-magical vessel could contain or a non-magical source could produce magic. This again is a matter of simple logic combined with occam's razor: the answer relying upon the least amount of assumptions is likely correct.

Further, since we already know that Mjolnir is a magical item (classifying as a magical vessel, a magical source, or, more likely, both), this ceases to be a point of contention according to the above logic.

OTOH, the kinds of energy Mjolnir channels are winds, lightning, etc. not magical lightning that changes a 10-year-old radio journalist into the world's mightiest mortal, just good ol' regular "burn your tree to a crisp" lightning. just because it's called down by magic instead of an excess positive charge due to polarization mechanism (or whatever your preferred theory) doesn't mean it's going to do any more harm to Supes than a regular bolt of lightning will. because the lightning itself is not magical, the act of calling it is.

I have not discussed the elemental effects generated by Thor, using Mjolnir. Whether or not it uses magic to generate mundane or magical lightning from otherwise non-conducive atmospheric conditions has no impact upon the inherent magical nature of the hammer.

Thor doesn't cast spells. his hammer doesn't cut. his lightning is just lightning. as such, he really isn't going to affect Superman any more than another guy who's super strong, violent as fuck, and can shoot lightning will. Clea, OTOH, would wipe the floor with his ass with a quickness. but we're not talking about Excalibur, a sharp sword made for slicing. we're talking about Mjolnir, a flat hammer made for striking.

Cutting has no bearing on this point either. Damage done is damage done, be it laceration or contusion.

Mjolnir hits real hard. but that's it. the Hulk withstands blows from Mjolnir. Juggernaut. the Wrecker. Frost Giants. Goliath. Mr. Hyde. and on and on. Superman can too. because even though the hammer's magical, at the end of the day it's just applying force, not magic. Superman can withstand force.

Hulk withstands the blows from the hammer with all his superhuman nigh-invulnerability because he has no particular vulnerability to magic written into his character description. He has no particular vulnerability to anything. Same with juggernaut. Same with the Wrecker. Same with all those guys you've mentioned except for Superman, who specifically does have this drawback.

In other words, to demonstrate your point, you've used examples which are not alike.

We cannot determine what the hammer will do to Superman based on what it has done to the Hulk, because their abilities and drawbacks are not the same.

i will, in a mild concession, say that this is a confusing pint, b/c you're right, it has been inconsistently applied, and has probably never been properly described in the first place. as i see it, Superman is just as vulnerable to magic spells and the powers of a magic artifact (such as WW's lasso of truth) as a human. but just because something has been touched by magic doesn't mean it's automatically going to negate his powers. i.e., tying him up in the lasso will force him to tell the truth, but slapping him upside the head with it won't knock him out.

it won't knock out a human either because it's just a piece of rope. But Mjolnir is a magic weapon, wielded by a guy strong enough to smash a mountain. If it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human would, the outcome seems apparent.

If Superman resists a blow from this magical weapon as would a person with superhuman resistance to damage, then it ceases to be a drawback, and just becomes a randomly applied, poorly defined plot device. And we seem to agree that this is exactly what it is.

But again I say, regardless, GL does not possess any such weakness or vulnerability to or drawback against magic. So if Superman couldn't do the job for this reason and this reason alone (but was willing), do we have any reasons aside from the purely plot-driven one for GL to not step up to the plate? I mean, as the GL of this sector, this is one of his responsibilities. I could understand if Shadowpact was right there on-scene as they were discussing it. But they had to be summoned, and GL was right there.

Rain Partier

chap22 wrote:and i contend that it is neither standard nor flawed. it's not standard because most folks, as you are doing, fail to differentiate still between magical (or if you prefer "of magic") and something that does magic.

This does not make sense. Something that does magic is not magical? Like, say a wand that spits out lightning, that's not magical? Should we then assume that a thing need not be magical to produce magical effects? How does that work exactly?

uru metal has magical properties, sure. none of those include "immediate unconsciousification of anyone it hits" or "cuts through adamantium like a hot knife trough butter". it channels energy, and it hits real hard. that's pretty much the extent of its magical properties. neither of those really do much to Superman.

I do not recall mentioning "immediate unconsciousification". What I do recall saying is that Mjolnir is an inherently magical device wielded by a guy strong enough to lift an airliner. I also recall saying that if Thor chose to hit a normal person full (or even half) force with mjolnir, it would turn that individual into red paste. I further recall saying that if it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human does, the logical outcome of being struck by a Mjolnir-wielding Thor, he should be turned into red paste.

I mean, among Thor's many exploits are knocking down half a mountain with Mjolnir. Mountains do not have any particular resistance to magic, so if he can do that to a mountain, imagine what he can do to a human.

and yeah, you can argue that magic is merely channeled energy (which i agree, does make the representation of what magic actually is and can do in multiple media very sketchy), but let's get down to it: magic is a unique form of enegy channeled in such a unique way as to make impossible and/or improbable things happen. for instance: people into animals; thin air into impregnable force fields; the Clippers into a championship franchise; Michael Hawk desirable to females; you see where i'm going here.

Using the exact same description, we can apply that to the Quantum Energy Captain Atom channels. or the Emerald energy the Guardians channel. Neither of which are magic, so the definition you pose would seem a bit generalized.

However, if we compromise for the sake of compromising and say "it is some sort of energy that can be channeled" then we'd have to also agree that anything that can be channeled requires at least two things: a source that generates it, and a vessel that channels or contains it.

And it is in the parlance that we must consider whether a non-magical vessel could contain or a non-magical source could produce magic. This again is a matter of simple logic combined with occam's razor: the answer relying upon the least amount of assumptions is likely correct.

Further, since we already know that Mjolnir is a magical item (classifying as a magical vessel, a magical source, or, more likely, both), this ceases to be a point of contention according to the above logic.

OTOH, the kinds of energy Mjolnir channels are winds, lightning, etc. not magical lightning that changes a 10-year-old radio journalist into the world's mightiest mortal, just good ol' regular "burn your tree to a crisp" lightning. just because it's called down by magic instead of an excess positive charge due to polarization mechanism (or whatever your preferred theory) doesn't mean it's going to do any more harm to Supes than a regular bolt of lightning will. because the lightning itself is not magical, the act of calling it is.

I have not discussed the elemental effects generated by Thor, using Mjolnir. Whether or not it uses magic to generate mundane or magical lightning from otherwise non-conducive atmospheric conditions has no impact upon the inherent magical nature of the hammer.

Thor doesn't cast spells. his hammer doesn't cut. his lightning is just lightning. as such, he really isn't going to affect Superman any more than another guy who's super strong, violent as fuck, and can shoot lightning will. Clea, OTOH, would wipe the floor with his ass with a quickness. but we're not talking about Excalibur, a sharp sword made for slicing. we're talking about Mjolnir, a flat hammer made for striking.

Cutting has no bearing on this point either. Damage done is damage done, be it laceration or contusion.

Mjolnir hits real hard. but that's it. the Hulk withstands blows from Mjolnir. Juggernaut. the Wrecker. Frost Giants. Goliath. Mr. Hyde. and on and on. Superman can too. because even though the hammer's magical, at the end of the day it's just applying force, not magic. Superman can withstand force.

Hulk withstands the blows from the hammer with all his superhuman nigh-invulnerability because he has no particular vulnerability to magic written into his character description. He has no particular vulnerability to anything. Same with juggernaut. Same with the Wrecker. Same with all those guys you've mentioned except for Superman, who specifically does have this drawback.

In other words, to demonstrate your point, you've used examples which are not alike.

We cannot determine what the hammer will do to Superman based on what it has done to the Hulk, because their abilities and drawbacks are not the same.

i will, in a mild concession, say that this is a confusing pint, b/c you're right, it has been inconsistently applied, and has probably never been properly described in the first place. as i see it, Superman is just as vulnerable to magic spells and the powers of a magic artifact (such as WW's lasso of truth) as a human. but just because something has been touched by magic doesn't mean it's automatically going to negate his powers. i.e., tying him up in the lasso will force him to tell the truth, but slapping him upside the head with it won't knock him out.

it won't knock out a human either because it's just a piece of rope. But Mjolnir is a magic weapon, wielded by a guy strong enough to smash a mountain. If it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human would, the outcome seems apparent.

If Superman resists a blow from this magical weapon as would a person with superhuman resistance to damage, then it ceases to be a drawback, and just becomes a randomly applied, poorly defined plot device. And we seem to agree that this is exactly what it is.

But again I say, regardless, GL does not possess any such weakness or vulnerability to or drawback against magic. So if Superman couldn't do the job for this reason and this reason alone (but was willing), do we have any reasons aside from the purely plot-driven one for GL to not step up to the plate? I mean, as the GL of this sector, this is one of his responsibilities. I could understand if Shadowpact was right there on-scene as they were discussing it. But they had to be summoned, and GL was right there.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."

Rain Partier

Strict31 wrote:This does not make sense. Something that does magic is not magical? Like, say a wand that spits out lightning, that's not magical? Should we then assume that a thing need not be magical to produce magical effects? How does that work exactly?

not what i said at all. you're right that it's the rectangle/square argument, but you're misunderstanding which one i'm saying is the rectangle. and on top of that, i probably still am not fully spelling out my entire point. yes, an item that produces magical effects is magical. but an object that doesn't produce magical effects can also be magical so long as it's made by magic.

and at the base of Mjolnir's discussion is this: what are the magic effects? the storms themselves, or the bringing about of the storms? again, i say, Mjolnir does do some magic tricks, but the tricks are the cause, not the result. it is the creation of the lightning that is the magic, not the lightning itself.

I do not recall mentioning "immediate unconsciousification". What I do recall saying is that Mjolnir is an inherently magical device wielded by a guy strong enough to lift an airliner. I also recall saying that if Thor chose to hit a normal person full (or even half) force with mjolnir, it would turn that individual into red paste. I further recall saying that if it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human does, the logical outcome of being struck by a Mjolnir-wielding Thor, he should be turned into red paste.

but that's not really that logical. b/c again, it SHOULD be (and this is how it's almost always depicted) that he's vulnerable to magic spells because it's not something his powers can counterbalance. magical application of force OTOH, he can, because it's still just force.

and it's not Mjolnir's magic properties that paste Joe Schmo, it's the fact that it's a goddamn hammer applied with the force of a thunder god. it's just simple physics, there's no magic inherent in the impact. i'm not saying the blow won't hurt Superman, but it won't paste him either.

I mean, among Thor's many exploits are knocking down half a mountain with Mjolnir. Mountains do not have any particular resistance to magic, so if he can do that to a mountain, imagine what he can do to a human.

but again, that has nothing to do with the mountain's resistance to magic. the mountain doesn't fall due to magic; it just falls due to the force of the blow.

Using the exact same description, we can apply that to the Quantum Energy Captain Atom channels. or the Emerald energy the Guardians channel. Neither of which are magic, so the definition you pose would seem a bit generalized.

eh, not really. i'll admit honestly i've never understood just what the fuck Capt. Atom's powers do, but GLs don't do "magic" per se, they just have a ring which creates a plasma-like substance that then forms shapes base on the creator's imagination and molded by their will. they don't change the structure of other materials, or teleport things, or put people to sleep; they're just material constructs. and they fly somehow...i dunno, you got me.

However, if we compromise for the sake of compromising and say "it is some sort of energy that can be channeled" then we'd have to also agree that anything that can be channeled requires at least two things: a source that generates it, and a vessel that channels or contains it.

And it is in the parlance that we must consider whether a non-magical vessel could contain or a non-magical source could produce magic. This again is a matter of simple logic combined with occam's razor: the answer relying upon the least amount of assumptions is likely correct.

Further, since we already know that Mjolnir is a magical item (classifying as a magical vessel, a magical source, or, more likely, both), this ceases to be a point of contention according to the above logic.

not really. i've admitted Mjolnir does do some magic: mainly, it creates storms. it is the source for whatever energy creates those storms. but Thor isn't hitting Superman with the creation of a storm, he's hitting him with a storm. actually, he's just hitting him with a big mallet. the mallet itself is not actively creating magic at point of impact. it's more like potential energy at that point, to try and equate it to a real-world phenomenon.

I have not discussed the elemental effects generated by Thor, using Mjolnir. Whether or not it uses magic to generate mundane or magical lightning from otherwise non-conducive atmospheric conditions has no impact upon the inherent magical nature of the hammer.

but again, that inherent nature is the point. it's just potential magic. by your logic, just because Zatanna has magic in her, just because she can do magic, if she pimp-slaps Superman, it will hurt him just as badly or moreso than if the Hulk hit him, b/c she's magical. but that just can't be the case (can it?). she has to be actively using/doing magic to hurt him. and again i put forth that Mjolnir hitting someone is not an active discharge of magic. i have NEVER seen that to be the case.

Cutting has no bearing on this point either. Damage done is damage done, be it laceration or contusion.

i was merely agreeing with your Excalibur point. and i'll agree that Mjolnir would probably bruise Supes (just as a rain of blows from Darkseid or some other suitably powerul foe would). but it ain't just gonna paste him at a tap.

Hulk withstands the blows from the hammer with all his superhuman nigh-invulnerability because he has no particular vulnerability to magic written into his character description. He has no particular vulnerability to anything. Same with juggernaut. Same with the Wrecker. Same with all those guys you've mentioned except for Superman, who specifically does have this drawback.

In other words, to demonstrate your point, you've used examples which are not alike.

We cannot determine what the hammer will do to Superman based on what it has done to the Hulk, because their abilities and drawbacks are not the same.it won't knock out a human either because it's just a piece of rope. But Mjolnir is a magic weapon, wielded by a guy strong enough to smash a mountain. If it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human would, the outcome seems apparent.

again, i'll refer simply to my potential magic vs. active magic argument. the hammer is magical, yes, but it doesn't actively do magic when used as a bludgeon. if Thor grabbed the bell, the wheel, and the jar and hit Supes over the head with them, i maintain the same stance.

If Superman resists a blow from this magical weapon as would a person with superhuman resistance to damage, then it ceases to be a drawback, and just becomes a randomly applied, poorly defined plot device. And we seem to agree that this is exactly what it is.

i do agree it's a poorly-defined plot device. that's as far as i'll go.

But again I say, regardless, GL does not possess any such weakness or vulnerability to or drawback against magic. So if Superman couldn't do the job for this reason and this reason alone (but was willing), do we have any reasons aside from the purely plot-driven one for GL to not step up to the plate? I mean, as the GL of this sector, this is one of his responsibilities. I could understand if Shadowpact was right there on-scene as they were discussing it. But they had to be summoned, and GL was right there.

Strict31 wrote:This does not make sense. Something that does magic is not magical? Like, say a wand that spits out lightning, that's not magical? Should we then assume that a thing need not be magical to produce magical effects? How does that work exactly?

not what i said at all. you're right that it's the rectangle/square argument, but you're misunderstanding which one i'm saying is the rectangle. and on top of that, i probably still am not fully spelling out my entire point. yes, an item that produces magical effects is magical. but an object that doesn't produce magical effects can also be magical so long as it's made by magic.

and at the base of Mjolnir's discussion is this: what are the magic effects? the storms themselves, or the bringing about of the storms? again, i say, Mjolnir does do some magic tricks, but the tricks are the cause, not the result. it is the creation of the lightning that is the magic, not the lightning itself.

I do not recall mentioning "immediate unconsciousification". What I do recall saying is that Mjolnir is an inherently magical device wielded by a guy strong enough to lift an airliner. I also recall saying that if Thor chose to hit a normal person full (or even half) force with mjolnir, it would turn that individual into red paste. I further recall saying that if it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human does, the logical outcome of being struck by a Mjolnir-wielding Thor, he should be turned into red paste.

but that's not really that logical. b/c again, it SHOULD be (and this is how it's almost always depicted) that he's vulnerable to magic spells because it's not something his powers can counterbalance. magical application of force OTOH, he can, because it's still just force.

and it's not Mjolnir's magic properties that paste Joe Schmo, it's the fact that it's a goddamn hammer applied with the force of a thunder god. it's just simple physics, there's no magic inherent in the impact. i'm not saying the blow won't hurt Superman, but it won't paste him either.

I mean, among Thor's many exploits are knocking down half a mountain with Mjolnir. Mountains do not have any particular resistance to magic, so if he can do that to a mountain, imagine what he can do to a human.

but again, that has nothing to do with the mountain's resistance to magic. the mountain doesn't fall due to magic; it just falls due to the force of the blow.

Using the exact same description, we can apply that to the Quantum Energy Captain Atom channels. or the Emerald energy the Guardians channel. Neither of which are magic, so the definition you pose would seem a bit generalized.

eh, not really. i'll admit honestly i've never understood just what the fuck Capt. Atom's powers do, but GLs don't do "magic" per se, they just have a ring which creates a plasma-like substance that then forms shapes base on the creator's imagination and molded by their will. they don't change the structure of other materials, or teleport things, or put people to sleep; they're just material constructs. and they fly somehow...i dunno, you got me.

However, if we compromise for the sake of compromising and say "it is some sort of energy that can be channeled" then we'd have to also agree that anything that can be channeled requires at least two things: a source that generates it, and a vessel that channels or contains it.

And it is in the parlance that we must consider whether a non-magical vessel could contain or a non-magical source could produce magic. This again is a matter of simple logic combined with occam's razor: the answer relying upon the least amount of assumptions is likely correct.

Further, since we already know that Mjolnir is a magical item (classifying as a magical vessel, a magical source, or, more likely, both), this ceases to be a point of contention according to the above logic.

not really. i've admitted Mjolnir does do some magic: mainly, it creates storms. it is the source for whatever energy creates those storms. but Thor isn't hitting Superman with the creation of a storm, he's hitting him with a storm. actually, he's just hitting him with a big mallet. the mallet itself is not actively creating magic at point of impact. it's more like potential energy at that point, to try and equate it to a real-world phenomenon.

I have not discussed the elemental effects generated by Thor, using Mjolnir. Whether or not it uses magic to generate mundane or magical lightning from otherwise non-conducive atmospheric conditions has no impact upon the inherent magical nature of the hammer.

but again, that inherent nature is the point. it's just potential magic. by your logic, just because Zatanna has magic in her, just because she can do magic, if she pimp-slaps Superman, it will hurt him just as badly or moreso than if the Hulk hit him, b/c she's magical. but that just can't be the case (can it?). she has to be actively using/doing magic to hurt him. and again i put forth that Mjolnir hitting someone is not an active discharge of magic. i have NEVER seen that to be the case.

Cutting has no bearing on this point either. Damage done is damage done, be it laceration or contusion.

i was merely agreeing with your Excalibur point. and i'll agree that Mjolnir would probably bruise Supes (just as a rain of blows from Darkseid or some other suitably powerul foe would). but it ain't just gonna paste him at a tap.

Hulk withstands the blows from the hammer with all his superhuman nigh-invulnerability because he has no particular vulnerability to magic written into his character description. He has no particular vulnerability to anything. Same with juggernaut. Same with the Wrecker. Same with all those guys you've mentioned except for Superman, who specifically does have this drawback.

In other words, to demonstrate your point, you've used examples which are not alike.

We cannot determine what the hammer will do to Superman based on what it has done to the Hulk, because their abilities and drawbacks are not the same.it won't knock out a human either because it's just a piece of rope. But Mjolnir is a magic weapon, wielded by a guy strong enough to smash a mountain. If it is true that Superman resists magic as a normal human would, the outcome seems apparent.

again, i'll refer simply to my potential magic vs. active magic argument. the hammer is magical, yes, but it doesn't actively do magic when used as a bludgeon. if Thor grabbed the bell, the wheel, and the jar and hit Supes over the head with them, i maintain the same stance.

If Superman resists a blow from this magical weapon as would a person with superhuman resistance to damage, then it ceases to be a drawback, and just becomes a randomly applied, poorly defined plot device. And we seem to agree that this is exactly what it is.

i do agree it's a poorly-defined plot device. that's as far as i'll go.

But again I say, regardless, GL does not possess any such weakness or vulnerability to or drawback against magic. So if Superman couldn't do the job for this reason and this reason alone (but was willing), do we have any reasons aside from the purely plot-driven one for GL to not step up to the plate? I mean, as the GL of this sector, this is one of his responsibilities. I could understand if Shadowpact was right there on-scene as they were discussing it. But they had to be summoned, and GL was right there.

Rain Partier

not what i said at all. you're right that it's the rectangle/square argument, but you're misunderstanding which one i'm saying is the rectangle. and on top of that, i probably still am not fully spelling out my entire point. yes, an item that produces magical effects is magical. but an object that doesn't produce magical effects can also be magical so long as it's made by magic.

See, this is why I'm confused. You're saying both are magical. So what's the point of bringing this up unless you intended to compare and contrast the two examples?

and at the base of Mjolnir's discussion is this: what are the magic effects? the storms themselves, or the bringing about of the storms? again, i say, Mjolnir does do some magic tricks, but the tricks are the cause, not the result. it is the creation of the lightning that is the magic, not the lightning itself.

Your presumption is that the magic item must cause a magical effect. A ferrous object has an innate structure which can allow it to create a magnetic field when acted upon by external forces. Like the core of the Earth. Because it spins, it generates an electromagnetic field. But on its own, it does no such thing unless acted upon. It merely has the qualities.

but that's not really that logical. b/c again, it SHOULD be (and this is how it's almost always depicted) that he's vulnerable to magic spells because it's not something his powers can counterbalance. magical application of force OTOH, he can, because it's still just force.

It certainly isn't depicted that way when Superman gets bitten by a werewolf or a vampire. They're not casting spells from their teeth. So "should" is more a function of your opinion, I'm afraid. And the logica is simple: if the teeth or talons of a vampire or werewolf are sufficiently magical to cause lacerations, then Mjolnir, a weapon described as enchanted, composed from metal described as enchanted, made on a forge described as enchanted should be able to cause contusions and concussive damage.

and it's not Mjolnir's magic properties that paste Joe Schmo, it's the fact that it's a goddamn hammer applied with the force of a thunder god. it's just simple physics, there's no magic inherent in the impact. i'm not saying the blow won't hurt Superman, but it won't paste him either.

I'm really not sure how to re-explain this at this point. I'm asking you to imagine what would happen if someone as strong as Thor hits a normal human with something as hard as mjolnir.

Picture that in your head.

Imagine what that level of force does to a normal human.

Now.

I'm saying this: if Superman is as vulnerable to magic as a normal human is, then he should have NO superhuman invulnerability against a strike from a magic hammer. And if that hammer is wielded by someone as strong as Thor is, what happens to that normal human is what should happen to Superman. If the hammer was wielded by a dude with the proportionate strength of a dude, it would be no different than a regular guy hitting you over the head with a hammer. Which would hurt, and may potentially be faithful, but since normal dudes cannot pulverize mountains by shrugging, the blow wouldn't turn you to paste.

but again, that has nothing to do with the mountain's resistance to magic. the mountain doesn't fall due to magic; it just falls due to the force of the blow.

You're totally misunderstanding what I've typed.

eh, not really. i'll admit honestly i've never understood just what the fuck Capt. Atom's powers do, but GLs don't do "magic" per se, they just have a ring which creates a plasma-like substance that then forms shapes base on the creator's imagination and molded by their will. they don't change the structure of other materials, or teleport things, or put people to sleep; they're just material constructs. and they fly somehow...i dunno, you got me.

Well...yes, really. The description you provided applies to any number of generic sci-fi energies that are poorly detailed in comic books. Your definition is so generic it could just as easily apply to the Power Cosmic over in Marvel.

And this is mainly because no one really knows the exact composition or science of magic. So generic is as good as it gets.

You don't understand what in the fuck Captain Atom's powers do because even the writers don't, and they define it very generically. And the GLC rings can do more than just create shapes and constructs. They can phase the bearer through solid materials, form telepathic connections (Hal did this in 52, actually), create radiation from whole cloth (Kyle did this when Dominus mind-slapped Superman). And they can generate enough energy to propel the bearer at speeds approaching C. Which should be...impossible. So yeah, it fits your definition. This is not your fault because comic books don't attempt to quantify superhero energies. But if you're not seeing the similarities in definitions (or the lack thereof) it's because you're disinclined to do so.

not really. i've admitted Mjolnir does do some magic: mainly, it creates storms. it is the source for whatever energy creates those storms. but Thor isn't hitting Superman with the creation of a storm, he's hitting him with a storm. actually, he's just hitting him with a big mallet. the mallet itself is not actively creating magic at point of impact. it's more like potential energy at that point, to try and equate it to a real-world phenomenon.

Again, I've at no point mentioned Thor hitting Superman with a storm. I do not see why you keep mentioning this as if I am bringing it up.

I'm talking about a man with a vulnerability to magic being hit by an object that is magic. I do, however, keep bringing up Occam, and will do so again here. Fewest assumptions. You are crafting all these assumptions about the function of magic, about Superman being vulnerable to speels instead of magic and potential energy of a magical item whereas I am simply stating the known facts:

--Superman is vulnerable to magic.

--Mjolnir is a magic item.

No assumptions here. Again, just stating the facts.

2 + 2 need not equal "chair".

but again, that inherent nature is the point. it's just potential magic. by your logic, just because Zatanna has magic in her, just because she can do magic, if she pimp-slaps Superman, it will hurt him just as badly or moreso than if the Hulk hit him, b/c she's magical. but that just can't be the case (can it?). she has to be actively using/doing magic to hurt him. and again i put forth that Mjolnir hitting someone is not an active discharge of magic. i have NEVER seen that to be the case.

I would argue that as a Homo magi, Zatanna has the ability to cast spells, and while she may or may not be innately magical due to her genetics, it's just as likely that those genetics merely allow her to control magic. Whereas Captain marvel or Black Adam inhabit bodies fueled by magic energy, which drives their strength and speed and endurance and toughness. This is supported in theory by the fact that Day of Vengeance showed Enchantress tapping into the flow of energy that powered Marvel. There's definitely some sort of "conduit" there.

Which suggests a difference between a Zatanna and a Captain Marvel.

But even if you disagree with this difference, the alternative (your explanation of Zatanna, that is) is what gives rise to the inconsistency of the so-called vulnerability. It cannot be written consistently without Superman being placed in some circumstance where the laws of his drawback don't just get the better of him, but also of the entire story itself.

i was merely agreeing with your Excalibur point. and i'll agree that Mjolnir would probably bruise Supes (just as a rain of blows from Darkseid or some other suitably powerul foe would). but it ain't just gonna paste him at a tap.

Since Mjolnir is magica and since Superman's resistance to magic is the same as a normal human's, logic dictates that it must.

again, i'll refer simply to my potential magic vs. active magic argument. the hammer is magical, yes, but it doesn't actively do magic when used as a bludgeon. if Thor grabbed the bell, the wheel, and the jar and hit Supes over the head with them, i maintain the same stance.

And I will refer to Occam once more. Logic is as logic does. Potential magic vs active magic is an assumptive interpretation on your part. My argument depends on no such assumptions. The fewer, the better.

i do agree it's a poorly-defined plot device. that's as far as i'll go.

And as it stands, as it is portrayed, operating on as few assumptions as possible, logic leaves us with a single conclusion: as both Superman and Mjolnir are defined and are portrayed, he should resist a hit from Mjolnir as would a normal human.

Rain Partier

not what i said at all. you're right that it's the rectangle/square argument, but you're misunderstanding which one i'm saying is the rectangle. and on top of that, i probably still am not fully spelling out my entire point. yes, an item that produces magical effects is magical. but an object that doesn't produce magical effects can also be magical so long as it's made by magic.

See, this is why I'm confused. You're saying both are magical. So what's the point of bringing this up unless you intended to compare and contrast the two examples?

and at the base of Mjolnir's discussion is this: what are the magic effects? the storms themselves, or the bringing about of the storms? again, i say, Mjolnir does do some magic tricks, but the tricks are the cause, not the result. it is the creation of the lightning that is the magic, not the lightning itself.

Your presumption is that the magic item must cause a magical effect. A ferrous object has an innate structure which can allow it to create a magnetic field when acted upon by external forces. Like the core of the Earth. Because it spins, it generates an electromagnetic field. But on its own, it does no such thing unless acted upon. It merely has the qualities.

but that's not really that logical. b/c again, it SHOULD be (and this is how it's almost always depicted) that he's vulnerable to magic spells because it's not something his powers can counterbalance. magical application of force OTOH, he can, because it's still just force.

It certainly isn't depicted that way when Superman gets bitten by a werewolf or a vampire. They're not casting spells from their teeth. So "should" is more a function of your opinion, I'm afraid. And the logica is simple: if the teeth or talons of a vampire or werewolf are sufficiently magical to cause lacerations, then Mjolnir, a weapon described as enchanted, composed from metal described as enchanted, made on a forge described as enchanted should be able to cause contusions and concussive damage.

and it's not Mjolnir's magic properties that paste Joe Schmo, it's the fact that it's a goddamn hammer applied with the force of a thunder god. it's just simple physics, there's no magic inherent in the impact. i'm not saying the blow won't hurt Superman, but it won't paste him either.

I'm really not sure how to re-explain this at this point. I'm asking you to imagine what would happen if someone as strong as Thor hits a normal human with something as hard as mjolnir.

Picture that in your head.

Imagine what that level of force does to a normal human.

Now.

I'm saying this: if Superman is as vulnerable to magic as a normal human is, then he should have NO superhuman invulnerability against a strike from a magic hammer. And if that hammer is wielded by someone as strong as Thor is, what happens to that normal human is what should happen to Superman. If the hammer was wielded by a dude with the proportionate strength of a dude, it would be no different than a regular guy hitting you over the head with a hammer. Which would hurt, and may potentially be faithful, but since normal dudes cannot pulverize mountains by shrugging, the blow wouldn't turn you to paste.

but again, that has nothing to do with the mountain's resistance to magic. the mountain doesn't fall due to magic; it just falls due to the force of the blow.

You're totally misunderstanding what I've typed.

eh, not really. i'll admit honestly i've never understood just what the fuck Capt. Atom's powers do, but GLs don't do "magic" per se, they just have a ring which creates a plasma-like substance that then forms shapes base on the creator's imagination and molded by their will. they don't change the structure of other materials, or teleport things, or put people to sleep; they're just material constructs. and they fly somehow...i dunno, you got me.

Well...yes, really. The description you provided applies to any number of generic sci-fi energies that are poorly detailed in comic books. Your definition is so generic it could just as easily apply to the Power Cosmic over in Marvel.

And this is mainly because no one really knows the exact composition or science of magic. So generic is as good as it gets.

You don't understand what in the fuck Captain Atom's powers do because even the writers don't, and they define it very generically. And the GLC rings can do more than just create shapes and constructs. They can phase the bearer through solid materials, form telepathic connections (Hal did this in 52, actually), create radiation from whole cloth (Kyle did this when Dominus mind-slapped Superman). And they can generate enough energy to propel the bearer at speeds approaching C. Which should be...impossible. So yeah, it fits your definition. This is not your fault because comic books don't attempt to quantify superhero energies. But if you're not seeing the similarities in definitions (or the lack thereof) it's because you're disinclined to do so.

not really. i've admitted Mjolnir does do some magic: mainly, it creates storms. it is the source for whatever energy creates those storms. but Thor isn't hitting Superman with the creation of a storm, he's hitting him with a storm. actually, he's just hitting him with a big mallet. the mallet itself is not actively creating magic at point of impact. it's more like potential energy at that point, to try and equate it to a real-world phenomenon.

Again, I've at no point mentioned Thor hitting Superman with a storm. I do not see why you keep mentioning this as if I am bringing it up.

I'm talking about a man with a vulnerability to magic being hit by an object that is magic. I do, however, keep bringing up Occam, and will do so again here. Fewest assumptions. You are crafting all these assumptions about the function of magic, about Superman being vulnerable to speels instead of magic and potential energy of a magical item whereas I am simply stating the known facts:

--Superman is vulnerable to magic.

--Mjolnir is a magic item.

No assumptions here. Again, just stating the facts.

2 + 2 need not equal "chair".

but again, that inherent nature is the point. it's just potential magic. by your logic, just because Zatanna has magic in her, just because she can do magic, if she pimp-slaps Superman, it will hurt him just as badly or moreso than if the Hulk hit him, b/c she's magical. but that just can't be the case (can it?). she has to be actively using/doing magic to hurt him. and again i put forth that Mjolnir hitting someone is not an active discharge of magic. i have NEVER seen that to be the case.

I would argue that as a Homo magi, Zatanna has the ability to cast spells, and while she may or may not be innately magical due to her genetics, it's just as likely that those genetics merely allow her to control magic. Whereas Captain marvel or Black Adam inhabit bodies fueled by magic energy, which drives their strength and speed and endurance and toughness. This is supported in theory by the fact that Day of Vengeance showed Enchantress tapping into the flow of energy that powered Marvel. There's definitely some sort of "conduit" there.

Which suggests a difference between a Zatanna and a Captain Marvel.

But even if you disagree with this difference, the alternative (your explanation of Zatanna, that is) is what gives rise to the inconsistency of the so-called vulnerability. It cannot be written consistently without Superman being placed in some circumstance where the laws of his drawback don't just get the better of him, but also of the entire story itself.

i was merely agreeing with your Excalibur point. and i'll agree that Mjolnir would probably bruise Supes (just as a rain of blows from Darkseid or some other suitably powerul foe would). but it ain't just gonna paste him at a tap.

Since Mjolnir is magica and since Superman's resistance to magic is the same as a normal human's, logic dictates that it must.

again, i'll refer simply to my potential magic vs. active magic argument. the hammer is magical, yes, but it doesn't actively do magic when used as a bludgeon. if Thor grabbed the bell, the wheel, and the jar and hit Supes over the head with them, i maintain the same stance.

And I will refer to Occam once more. Logic is as logic does. Potential magic vs active magic is an assumptive interpretation on your part. My argument depends on no such assumptions. The fewer, the better.

i do agree it's a poorly-defined plot device. that's as far as i'll go.

And as it stands, as it is portrayed, operating on as few assumptions as possible, logic leaves us with a single conclusion: as both Superman and Mjolnir are defined and are portrayed, he should resist a hit from Mjolnir as would a normal human.

"You must be proud, bold, pleasant, resolute,And now and then stab, as occasion serves."