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You didn't answer my last reply, so I thought that you were angry for something. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Greek Macedonia map

What did you do to the map - they both look identical to me (even after clearing my cache)? --Telex 21:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Some crazy nationalist Greek archaeologist stole it from "Makedonia" square Skopje and planted it conveniently in Vergina. NikoSilver(T)@(C) 20:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It is a work of fiction - someone should tag it appropriately with {{hoax}} or {{unsourced}}. --Telex 20:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? Do you have a non-partisan source that disproves it? Give us a break, it's a 100% Macedonian, therefore it belongs 100% to "Macedonia" and the "Macedonians". NikoSilver(T)@(C) 20:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I forgot. I tagged it a few days ago. BTW Niko, you've got mail. --Telex 20:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, but has the star shown up anywhere else? /FunkyFly.talk_ 22:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'd leave it as it is to let them ridicule themselves for including it in their user-pages. Have you seen it in any article? NikoSilver(T)@(C) 23:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It's easy to see where it is used in the list below. What I meant by shown up is being found at other archaelogical sites? Btw congrats for the 10000 article in el.wikipedia (finally) :) /FunkyFly.talk_ 23:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

No idea, don't think so. Tks 4 gr:wiki. It seems we should work more there, than here. (glad to see it increase by 1pt size, although the next one will be tough!) NikoSilver(T)@(C) 20:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman province

Something is wrong with the map. It does not show any region. /FunkyFly.talk_ 19:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Then the map should not be included at all. Empty map does not make any sense. /FunkyFly.talk_ 20:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Funky no. That's the point. It will help me later on in illustrating that todays Macedonia region as defined in the map above is just a pile of crap. See the comments between me and Francis after my copying the Wilkinson quotes in the Talk:Macedonia (terminology)#Byzantine province. It is evident that Britannica and Wikipedia are victims of MacSlav partisan sources in defining the area to include fYRoM and "Aegean" and "Pirin" Macedonia. Please bear with me until I get back from Morocco. By the way, the caption illustrates that clearly! NikoSilver(T)@(C) 20:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I was under the impression that an Ottoman province of Macedonia did exist (possibly including the Bitola or Skopie vilayet). I'll read on. /FunkyFly.talk_ 20:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Fooling everybody else is believable. Fooling people like you and me is just amazing! NikoSilver(T)@(C) 20:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't defined fullstop. And we all know what "Rumelia" stands for... The most important thing, is that the present Macedonia (region) map coincides absolutely with all partisan MacSlav sites! Many such examples had been humorously linked in the talk by Telex. Check them out! (I'll have to get a raincheck on this talk) NikoSilver(T)@(C) 20:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

Hmm, the politics infobox is still screwed up for me. - FrancisTyers 16:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Eurovision

I watched the Eurovision song contest yesterday, It was difficult to find a broadcaster here in Canada... So I watched it over the internet. Very nicely organized, Greece really did a great job :-) I'm not that satisfied with the winner of the contest, I was hoping that Bosnia or Greece would win, but they didn't :-( Oh, well, there's always next year... --serbiana-talk 07:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Same here. I'm in Marakesh and I saw it in "France 3". I liked the organization too, it seems the Greek organizers have gotten the hand of it after the Olympics. I'm not satisfied with the winner either (I even preferred "We are the winners of Eurovision" to it.) Anna Vissi's voice is really something, but the song wasn't really up to the Eurovision pop standards. Bosnia was nice too. I hope the childish votes will be less next year in Finland... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 12:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yea, thats the problem with Eurovision, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are always gonna vote either for Russia or Ukraine; Croatia, Slovenia and FYROM for Bosnia or Serbia; baltic countries for baltic countries... It's not fair, people are not voting for the songs they like, but rather for the countries they like. How's Marakesh? I've heard nice things about it :-) --serbiana-talk 18:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the same goes for Ireland & UK, Greece & Cyprus, Monaco & France etc etc etc. I think Eurovision is a waste of diplomatic resources! Marakesh is nice, and the people are very friendly. You need to be especially patient to get rid of the myriads of "guides" that jump to you for a sight-seeing tour all the time, and all the henna-tattoo specialists that forcefully grab your hand to draw Vincent van Gogh on it. There are nice tours in the southwest to see Berber tribes and old traditional villages on the Atlas mountains. Essaouira is a nice port 2 hours drive away, and the people there act much more European (the sea was always a means of becoming cosmopolitan). French language is quite necessary, and French tourists are unavoidable! Not too much hardcore islamic interpretation of the Qur'an; even the young king shows publicly his wife's face. Need to be cautious with certain Berbers on the mountains, though (eating only with the right hand etc)... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 23:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Greek Macedonians

Hi Andrea, sorry if I sound agitated in the deletion vote. It's not personal, nor do I suppose that you don't agree (at least in part). I just wanted to make a point for the rest of the readers/voters. I'm also thinking of modifying my vote according to Telex's (and apparently Aldux's and Lukas') more rational proposal. Btw, you've got mail!

PS: Glad to see you're using the sig! I hope you're not doing it out of pitty, since I sounded like a 5-year-old... I was just trying to be funny, don't take it litterally! :-) NikoSilver(T)@(C) 00:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Niko, thanks for your input. You are right, I know that Alexander the Great did not say "dobar den", after all I was born before the SRM, and I learned Greek History at school in Germany. And yes, WP is here to educate people. Here I come with another anecdote (a true story told to me by my mother): she met some American ladies in Sweden that had the following conversation:

I visited Austria, a lovely country. - How could you communicate with the Austrians, do you speak Austrian?

(Why Americans? They could be of any other nationality, but Americans have the disadvantage of living in a huge country, so they have relatively little contact with other nationals).

More seriously: the Macedonian question is indeed tricky (as are many other ones in different ways). The episode with the French TV moderator is deplorable (provided she was not joking). Fortunately, the non-relatedless of Slavic and ancient Macedonians is explicitlely pointed out in WP where appropriate, so I do not believe that a WP user would not know (I suppose that the French moderator had not read the articles on Macedonians (ethnic group) etc.). On the other hand, I think editors should avoid (when possible) edits that can be seen as provocative. Imho, the category in question does not do any good for the Greek cause because it can be seen as reinforcing the opinion that Greeks are overly nationalistic. So I agree with you in principle but I disagree in some points. Andreas(T) 00:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ha! Thank god they didn't ask how an American speaker can communicate in England! No, they (two men speakers), were not joking. I would have got it, as I got most of the other jokes (even the one about Anna Vissi being the oldest singer in EU!) Fmore, I was with a bunch of fluently Francophone Morrocans here in Marakesh and some of them turned to me with a *duh?* face! You may be right about the disambiguation of the present Slavs with the Ancient Macedonians. What I don't understand is why a self-identifying Greek cannot be recorded as such. It's not a matter of nationalism, but rather a matter of disassociation of Ancient Greeks from their Fallmerayered inheritors (NOT necessarily offsprings, just inheritors): The modern Greeks. Pmanderson/Septemptrionalis who nominated it, is used to such attempts, which is evident from Talk:Greeks and his edits in the said article about my people...NikoSilver(T)@(C) 01:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Montenegrin independence referendum

Hugh, things are changing so rapidly - I no longer no what's the actual result of the referendum. ;) --HolyRomanEmperor 15:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why this should happen, I don't know if it is for better or for worse for both the Serbs and the Montenegrins. I don't know how a 60% clear advantage for "No" in polls can turn out to a marginal 55.4% (55% was needed) for "Yes". God bless Montenegrins and Serbs, if that was their original intention, and if intentions are generally correct (depending on how you define "correct"), but something here is fishy... If it's not, I eat my words... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 16:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, that was not their original intention - in the 1992 referendum to keep Yugoslavia with Serbia between 90% and 95% ov the voters votes Yes. Montenegro has been lobbying for independence for years. Remember that propaganda, as always, has messed its fingers into the matter. Also, the leaders of the State Union of Montenegro (100% of its diplomatic leadership abroad and actually the PResident) are Montenegrins - so, the Montenegrin independence was presented as a state policy of the State Union - and there was no problem in lobbying it abroad. Have I made things clearer? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It's just that 1992 was before the genocides in Bosnia, before the Kosovo war and before the NATO bombings, before it was known how bleak the EU prospects of the country are when failing to hand over Mladic, and before Yugoslavia became a dirty word for the rest of the world. Othwerwise things are pretty similar. /FunkyFly.talk_ 16:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I really have no idea in this. I've only been told that Montenegrins are in fact Serbs that live in Montenegro. Am I misinformed? NikoSilver(T)@(C) 00:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Both yes and no. Over 32% of Montenegro's citizens are ethnic Serbs; around 65% of them are Serbian-speakers and over 75% are Orthodox Serbs. There is also the situation that all who nowedays declare Montenegrins through their nationality are of Serbian origin. It's like this - in Montenegro, a nations was first formed (Serbs) and an ethnic group is being formed just now (Montenegrins). Have I helped you a bit? --HolyRomanEmperor 14:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Helped? Actually I am now more confused than I was before! I guess it's not because of your explanation of the situation being complicated, but because of the complexity of the situation itself! NikoSilver(T)@(C) 15:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, shoot - I guarrantee that I will be able to explain everything. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I've really "mixed my thies" (Greek expression) on that one... Flying back in a while, see you tomorrow... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 08:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Andrea, thanks for the intervention. I'm really behind in this, so please fill me in if anything else is needed. NikoSilver(T)@(C) 00:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Signature shop

Niko, you had provided me with a series of coloured user name alternatives. I lost them. I think you had placed them in another Greek user's page. Mipos thimase? Ta leme file, Politis 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. There were so many people interested in this, that I openned a Signature shop. Feel free to browse in its talk-page and find them. If you want additional modifications, paste your comments there. I'll be glad to help... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 17:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian disambiguation page

Seems that someone is deleting the region and the Greek administrative area from the disambiguation page under 'Macedonia'. Shame. Dr. Manos 17:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Niko, give me your opinion on this edit summary from mkwiki: Greek Macedonia DOES NOT EXIST, Greek Macedonians DO NOT EXIST, Greeks are Gypsies, MACEDONIA TO THE MACEDONIANS! Do you now understand why they are not in the EU. --Telex 18:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

In this particular edit, the Vergina symbol on a blue background was replaced by one on a red background. As far as my limited Slavic skills allow me, it says in the new caption that this is the national symbol of the Makedonski. I took the liberty to revert this. Andreas(T) 18:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Message from our government:

We are sorry to inform you that your edit has been reverted. After conducting careful evaluation of its text, our committee reached the conclusion that its inclusion in the article will jeopardize the international positions and harm the image and prestige of the Republic of Macedonia. We apologize for our language, however, we must follow our strict protocol. Good luck. /FunkyFly.talk_ 20:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

PS. I bet 100 bucks that 3RR will not be enforced for that article. /FunkyFly.talk_ 20:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess thatnow I can count myself as a proud member of the Roma community. Andreas(T) 21:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The differences in both versions are:

The introduction in mine is:

Aegean Macedonia or Greek Macedonia (... some other names...) is a territory of Greece which is the southern part of the region of Macedonia.

In his, it was:

Aegean Macedonia (... some other names, but not Greek Macedonia...) is a territory of ethnic Macedonia which today is part of Greece.

In mine the flag was:

The Greek Macedonian flag with a caption saying: the flag of Greek Macedonia and of the Greek Macedonians.

In his, it was:

The old FYROM flag with a caption saying: national flag of the Macedonians with the Star of Kutlesh (Vergina) a Macedonian national symbol.

Alas, mkwiki is very POV. Just below, it says that there are 420 000 - 450 000 (19,09% - 20,45%) "Macedonians" in "Aegean" Macedonia, and that they form 88% in "Lerin" (Florina) and 79% in "Voden" (Edessa). I didn't even attempt to fix these. --Telex 18:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Telex, please get into the trouble of correcting the whole page, and I'll help in rv's to your version. These edits not only harm Greece, they also harm peaceful and rational people from fYRoM. Imagine the international disgrace that such POV will have when impartial thirds read this garbage. It will destroy every single chance these people have to decent self-determination and diplomacy... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 00:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Niko, re. your categories edits at Arvanites: this is related to an ongoing category deletion proposal, can you please have a look at [1] Cheers, Fut.Perf.☼ 15:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. You really need a dab notice for non-native-English-speaking Greek readers in this one, or at least a nice infobox in the talk-page. That, or the dictionaries should translate "national" to "κρατικός", "ethnic" to "φυλή" or "εθνικό φύλο", and "minority" to "υποσύνολο" or "τμήμα". Jesus! Did we point out an example of English language actually being richer than Greek? NikoSilver(T)@(C) 15:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Normal procedure involves sending an e-mail to the "pack of wolves' mailing list" and one of the wolves will help you (that's Apostolos Margaritis terminology btw). --Telex 15:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Where does one subscribe to the list? And, can an editor be part of two packs of wolves simultaneously? Fut.Perf.☼ 15:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop impersonating you amateur imposter of a sockpuppet! Your name implies a linguistic joke understood only by Tyrolese people with superb grammar skills! So, as far as I'm concerned, you are a Tyroleselinguist! NikoSilver(T)@(C) 17:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha...

Yeah, I know it seems funny but I'd rather that than do the "Run, Forrest, run!" thing :) Umm, don't forget about your promise, who knows when I'd need a revert! Anyway, always happy to help people enjoy themselves :D Todor Bozhinov → 15:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Reading it again, I'm still laughing to that one! You must create a "Humor" section in your userpage (see mine) and include it... NikoSilver(T)@(C) 17:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Various reasons to LOL

See this edit - I'm so pleased I started that article ;-) See this edit and my observations ;-) --Telex 16:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Been laughing all day with these. You definitely deserve the star I gave you as a woolf-buddy! NikoSilver(T)@(C) 17:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You know, every time I see someone (a known user or an anon) editing a Macedonia related article and leaving an edit summary of (kor.), my heart sinks, as I know it's some kind of nationalist edit (e.g. [2]). --Telex 17:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello, its me again.Can you give your input on this discussion? Natives to People When I first created it was meant to be for Greek people of the modern state of Greece by periphery, as the title says, which is why I added the tag line.

Similar to howAmerican is for Americans. I didn't even name the sub-categories as "Natives of" when I first created them, Damac changed them without even saying anything. Thank you in advance. ~Mallaccaos, 26May 2006