You can't really think that things like dignity, maturity and humility are absent from MMA practice (much less football), do you? Surely, there are plenty of knuckleheads in MMA - but there are just as many in TMA. To train MMA or BJJ requires lots of humility, since you will certainly run across people better than yourself on a regular basis.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

<<You can't really think that things like dignity, maturity and humility are absent from MMA practice

With regret and profound respect I am afraid I do. Fundamentally I propose that martial arts practice, study are not supposed to be "megaphones"... never intended as "specticle".

MMA costumes cannot be dignified (I use the term costumes specifically). There isn't that much blessed advertising on the entire Los Vegas Strip as there is on their crotch, groin, rear-end! There is nothing dignified in their costumes on any conceivable level.

TMA knuckleheads likewisee easily identified... they too wear the noxious "blinking billboards", patches, stripes, colors. Surely not the sole indicator but a pretty good warning of a serious potential lack.

I offer that uniforms of martial arts are not for the purpose of advertising or drawing attention. Functional yes with a side-order of anthropology (ie original cultural context). But martial arts should not fundamentally be about advertising...

Those who wiggle, dance, shimmy, climbing the ring fencing, performing backflips, pumping their arms jumping up and down proclaiming their "prowess" with the injured body of their opponent still laying at their feet...

Classic demonstrations of the same toxic masturbations. Dignified, mature, humble... which quality does such offensive behaviors demonstrate to you?

At the core they are blatent specticles... How about a little dignity boys ?

And just as that there are also many MMA/other sport fighters who do not perform the backflips or throw their arms up in the air until at all or until they at least confirm their opponent is not seriously injured.

Though I do agree that the more money making gets involved the less important values become in the MA.

With all due respect Ronin, you are making the mistake of tarring all MMA practitioners for the sins of the few, which, as you noted, also occurs in TMA - check any local karate tournament if you disagree. The vast majority of MMA practitioners and instructors are indeed humble and respectful, the very same qualities edified in any other legit martial arts practice. As far as martial arts not being a spectacle, I will leave you to discuss that with Kano, Oshima, Jhoon Rhee, Bruce Lee, and many others more qualified that I.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

With all due respect Ronin, you are making the mistake of tarring all MMA practitioners for the sins of the few, which, as you noted, also occurs in TMA - check any local karate tournament if you disagree. The vast majority of MMA practitioners and instructors are indeed humble and respectful, the very same qualities edified in any other legit martial arts practice. As far as martial arts not being a spectacle, I will leave you to discuss that with Kano, Oshima, Jhoon Rhee, Bruce Lee, and many others more qualified that I.

In a general sense Matt I think you are correct.

However TMA doesn't have televised events that have quickly degenerated into WWE -style behavior in some cases. Well ok, bit of an exaggeration maybe, but I have to agree with Ronin that mainstream competitive MMA eventsdon't have much of an upside in terms of character, certainly not in any way that would matter - such as positive role models for kids or whatever.

Not saying that's anyone's job as martial artists, or martial arts teachers - just saying there's almost zero of that kind of thing in the culture that is presented in televised MMA events. I realize this is no way reflects what most practitioners or athletes are like, but it IS the public face of the phenomenon, and that counts somewhat IMO.

Nice to be able to type without those pesky icicles getting in the way

<<you are making the mistake of tarring all MMA practitioners for the sins of the few

And I accept, surely there must be one(s) somewhere... I have yet to see them on the TV specticle pretending to be martial arts. The blatent clear majority by their own ridicilous actions are not when in front of a camera. Are they performing for the camera, I think not.

<<any local karate tournament if you disagree.

Can you find me one without a musical division? One without a dozen divisions under the age of 10 years old? How bout one or two which at the end have some food together afterwards, while cleaning up the space we used?

I dont disagree that what is passing as "martial" too often misses the boat entirely. I contend that mere technique is not remotely sufficent.

<<I will leave you to discuss that with Kano, Oshima, Jhoon Rhee, Bruce Lee, and many others more qualified

So I ask then how do you address Chen Zen's original question(s)? Do you disagree with the perspective there seems to be very little public presentation of such qualities?

I stand respectfully by my earlier sentiments, too little is seen, and as a general rule the MMA presentation offends me severely. I will watch them at times, but have no respect for their presentation. In front of a camera or not, should be the same thing.