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Actually I would go further than that, that MX and MLK needed each other, one couldn't exist without the other. That yin yang dynamic was perfect....They only had one meeting together, correct? Imagine if they kept meeting eacher other and never got killed? This would be something else entirely.

They were using the burning house in two different ways MLK was using it as a metaphor and Malcolm was talking about a literal house.

MLK talked about putting out the fire because it would affect black people. He saw that America's economic system was flawed and had to be changed in order for black people and poor people of all colors to truely be equal and free.

The whole reason he was in Memphis in the first place was to support underpaid black sanitation workers. MLK dedicated his life and lost his life fighting for the rights of black people, in what way does that make him a coon or a house nigga?

It's all good to speculate from time to time but I don't remember him speaking publicly about changing the system before being a part of that system.
What he did say though was the quote in the o/p.

Remember the premise of the thread is:
Why would someone fight for something they don't believe in?
&
Why would someone fight for something they believed would be detrimental/destructive for those they are supposedly fighting for?

Because at the end of the day, MLK fought and was killed for a cause he no longer believed in.

Look at it from both MLK's and X's perspective, they both wanted to change how Blacks were treated but, they had different ways of going about it.

I feel like had they both not been killed they would have came together to do something about that, because of their death we got The Black Panthers, my uncle David was in the Panthers chapter in Harlem and he told us the teachings of Huey Newton was even more aggressive then what Malcolm talked about and they were working on making a Black Nation so, we were eventually going in the right direction but, thanks to Eldridge Cleaver for dividing The Panthers, they started fighting each other instead of against the system.

They were using the burning house in two different ways MLK was using it as a metaphor and Malcolm was talking about a literal house.

MLK talked about putting out the fire because it would affect black people. He saw that America's economic system was flawed and had to be changed in order for black people and poor people of all colors to truely be equal and free.

The whole reason he was in Memphis in the first place was to support underpaid black sanitation workers. MLK dedicated his life and lost his life fighting for the rights of black people, in what way does that make him a coon or a house nigga?

It's all good to speculate from time to time but I don't remember him speaking publicly about changing the system before being a part of that system.
What he did say though was the quote in the o/p.

Remember the premise of the thread is:
Why would someone fight for something they don't believe in?
&
Why would someone fight for something they believed would be detrimental/destructive for those they are supposedly fighting for?

Because at the end of the day, MLK fought and was killed for a cause he no longer believed in.

And brother, if I'm wrong, enlighten me. I'm here to learn.

Dr. King said the above statement to Harry Belafonte in a conversation they had before his death. Belafonte startled at the statement said to him “What should we do?” Dr. King told him that we “Become the firemen, Let us not stand by and let the house burn.”

He is clearly stating that he believed we as a people could "put out the fire"

It wasn't that he no longer believed in what he had been fighting for he just saw that integration wouldn't be enough.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. realized that the struggle for integration would ultimately become a struggle for economic rights.

This^^^ is the reason why Dr. King was in Memphis that day he came to support Black sanitation workers

"The night before his assassination in April 1968, Martin Luther King told a group of striking sanitation workers in Memphis, Tennessee: “We’ve got to give ourselves to this struggle until the end. Nothing would be more tragic than to stop at this point in Memphis. We’ve got to see it through” (King, “I’ve Been to the Mountaintop,” 217). King believed the struggle in Memphis exposed the need for economic equality and social justice that he hoped his Poor People’s Campaign would highlight nationally."

@NeighborhoodNomad. If you are really here to be educated go read some of his words, go to youtube and listen to his speeches, get to know the man and what he stood for and what he fought for, he is more than the I have a dream speech.

The sad thing about all of this is that black people have always had more in common with and been in a position to be better friends to poor white people that rich white people ever were. Poor white people were/are just to stupid to realize it. It's funny how well rich people pulled their strings. The last thing rich people ever want is for poor people of all races to unity and fight for economic equality, so they used race as a method of dividing conquering. This was done hundreds of years ago before blacks were even brought to the US as slaves, and even today it still works like a charm.

Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

I hear what you're saying. But I don't understand why the agenda would be for we the people to become the firemen and put out a fire to a house/system that is designed to exploit and destroy us/the people. And to be outside of the house, realize it's on fire, and continue to walk in, while leading others into that very house makes no sense to me.

Why would MLK say "I've come across something that deeply disturbs me"... if he believed he was still doing the right thing. He had a moment of clarity and realized that we were about to get everything he had been fighting so passionately for, only to become the very thing (mentally) he was fighting against. If you want to be a guest in anyone's house, you must play their game or become like those who live in the house.

I like the idea of The Poor Peoples Campaign for economic justice. I support all forms of true justice. But justice will NEVER be executed through asking (your oppressors of all people), or marching. True justice requires revolution. Houses (systems) need to be allowed to be completely burned down. Foundations (mentalities) need to be uprooted. New foundations need to be laid. And new and better homes need to be built.

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying/suggesting that MLK was saying the problem was/is integration. I'm saying he realized that integrating into a crooked system was/is the the problem.

I think MLK was trying to save the propagated "idea" of this country, by saying "I'm afraid that America may be losing what moral vision she may have had,..." When there was never any true morality in this country to begin with. As we all know, this country was built off bloodshed, deceit, slavery, and exploitation.

How can there ever be economic justice in a system that needs there to be a "lower class" in order for there to be an "upper class"?

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying/suggesting that MLK was saying the problem was/is integration. I'm saying he realized that integrating into a crooked system was/is the the problem.

I think MLK was trying to save the propagated "idea" of this country, by saying "I'm afraid that America may be losing what moral vision she may have had,..." When there was never any true morality in this country to begin with. As we all know, this country was built off bloodshed, deceit, slavery, and exploitation.

How can there ever be economic justice in a system that needs there to be a "lower class" in order for there to be an "upper class"?

When did our society decide it owes everyone a decent existence....whatever happened to personal gumption and initiative? America is descending into a nation of takers who don't wanna work. People continue to wallow and wallow in self pity. America is no longer the home of the brave.

The America you speak of never existed. This country has always been a nation of takers who don't want to work. This land was taken from the Natives and built on the backs of slaves. It's not about self pity, it's about justice.

And as human beings, it's our duty to help others experience a decent existence.

I love MLK and you can never fault a man for seeing something needs fixing then trying to fix it, but integration with these white people was the 2nd part of destroying blacks brought to America. The first part was obviously bringing them here.

Come on now. Comparing those two quotes just because they both have fire in them is stupid. MLK wasn't saying that Black people needed to save America for white people. He was saying that we needed to work so as to change America's ways of feeding off of and stepping all over the poor and disenfranchised. Being that Blacks are disproportionately poor and disenfranchised, he was still looking out for Black people. To me, he kinda looked forward and saw that integration would be pointless if America could just use economics to keep Blacks down in place of law.

Also, I agree with Zombie. I don't think we would be in quite the same position we are now if MLK had lived. The large part of the Black Communities problems is that everyone saw Integration as the "Great Success" instead of the first victory in a long war. So once integration came a long, that unity disappeared as everyone went to try and get thier own piece of the pie and what leadership we had disappeared or took the form of people more interested in photo ops than effecting real change. I think if MLK was still around, he would have tried to keep people focused. And these comments if they are true suggest he was of that mindset.

Why continue to speak and demonstrate for something you believe will be pointless?

Did you miss the second part of that sentence: "...if America could just use economics to keep Blacks down in place of law." In other words, he realized that there would have to be a second phase of black financial empowerment to go along with the Civil Rights movement.

some could argue that integration has done more harm to black people than good.. pre-integration or pre-civil rights era I should say you had very strong tight nit black communities... (Black Wall street in Tulsa OK in the 1920's as well as in Durham NC) and in many other cites and towns across the country Black people knew that they had to do for themselves. All those strong Black communities were either burned down or integrated..

Today you don't have a Black community, you have Black neighborhoods, but not a community...

So in many respects I feel like Martin King fought a good fight but at the end of the day why ask to sat at the table with other people when you have the ability to set you're own table.

I think you basically make the case for why integration was necessary though. What happened to Black Wall Street? It was wiped off the face of the Earth. That was only possible because of the position blacks had in the country at the time. Say what you want about integration, but it's made it impossible for something like that or Rosewood to ever happen again.

The fact is, integration was necessary. Blacks are a minority in this country. To really succeed, we had to get to the point where we were recognized by the law. Like I said before, the problem is not that integration happened. It's that people saw integration as THE victory, and basically abandoned everything that came before it.

I never said integration the only problem, but like you just stated it was not the victory. what it did was it made some people complacent.

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying/suggesting that MLK was saying the problem was/is integration. I'm saying he realized that integrating into a crooked system was/is the the problem.

I think MLK was trying to save the propagated "idea" of this country, by saying "I'm afraid that America may be losing what moral vision she may have had,..." When there was never any true morality in this country to begin with. As we all know, this country was built off bloodshed, deceit, slavery, and exploitation.

How can there ever be economic justice in a system that needs there to be a "lower class" in order for there to be an "upper class"?

When did our society decide it owes everyone a decent existence....whatever happened to personal gumption and initiative? America is descending into a nation of takers who don't wanna work. People continue to wallow and wallow in self pity. America is no longer the home of the brave.

The America you speak of never existed. This country has always been a nation of takers who don't want to work. This land was taken from the Natives and built on the backs of slaves. It's not about self pity, it's about justice.

And as human beings, it's our duty to help others experience a decent existence.

NO!!! this nation wasn't built on that premise IE take from others and don't ever contribute. Are U implying/claiming that blacks single handedly built this country? STOP with this nonsense about justice for all and we owe others a decent living/existence....how 'bout personal gumption and getting off ones lazy ass....this nation wasn't built on the back of lazy peoples.....I see homeless people everyday of my life and they aren't starving and, there's literally hundreds of organizations feeding and clothing them....wallow in self-pity and you'll never have 2 work a day in your life.

What did the US give the Native Americans for all the land and resources they took? Not a damn thing. They invoked Manifest Destiny, and claimed it was their divine right to take everything. What did the US give the slaves for all their hard work? Not a damn thing.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't work to live. Of course they should, but let's not act like a lot of people in power haven't shaped law and the country as a whole so that they could make max money off of minimal effort. That's what slavery was about. Rich plantation owners wanted to get richer and they didn't want to do the work or pay for the workers so they force people to do it virtually for free and that was sanctioned by this country for decades.

Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

My point was about how long do we as an nation continue to live in that legacy. Just image the millions upon millions of your fellow Americans who didn't have anything to do with those times....how much longer should the guilt trip be laid at the feet of people who were never ever involved in that legacy? Why do so many non-whites hold those on the periphery of this issue responsible? why!? It never ends it just goes on and on and on and on and on.

Watch that when you get a chance. It's not all about blaming every single American for the shit that has happened in the past. The probably is the country is built on principles that allow for some people (the white elite) to push a way of being that continue to disenfranchise people (mostly minorities). The problem is that this refusal to acknowledge what's being done is a problem and makes it difficult for any kind of wholesale progress to be made.

Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

I hear what you're saying. But I don't understand why the agenda would be for we the people to become the firemen and put out a fire to a house/system that is designed to exploit and destroy us/the people. And to be outside of the house, realize it's on fire, and continue to walk in, while leading others into that very house makes no sense to me.

Why would MLK say "I've come across something that deeply disturbs me"... if he believed he was still doing the right thing. He had a moment of clarity and realized that we were about to get everything he had been fighting so passionately for, only to become the very thing (mentally) he was fighting against. If you want to be a guest in anyone's house, you must play their game or become like those who live in the house.

I like the idea of The Poor Peoples Campaign for economic justice. I support all forms of true justice. But justice will NEVER be executed through asking (your oppressors of all people), or marching. True justice requires revolution. Houses (systems) need to be allowed to be completely burned down. Foundations (mentalities) need to be uprooted. New foundations need to be laid. And new and better homes need to be built.

THE HOUSE!
THE HOUSE!
THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!...

The only other options would've been to go back to Africa or continuing on with Jim Crow.

And SMH at people blaming integration for the current state of Black America, integration was supposed to be the 1st step, but after Martin died and the Panthers neutralized no one was left to futher the cause and gangs, jobs left the communities, and crack was pushed into the inner city.

But to blame integration is like a WR catching the ball running 5 yards then fumbling and blaming the snap.

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not saying/suggesting that MLK was saying the problem was/is integration. I'm saying he realized that integrating into a crooked system was/is the the problem.

I think MLK was trying to save the propagated "idea" of this country, by saying "I'm afraid that America may be losing what moral vision she may have had,..." When there was never any true morality in this country to begin with. As we all know, this country was built off bloodshed, deceit, slavery, and exploitation.

How can there ever be economic justice in a system that needs there to be a "lower class" in order for there to be an "upper class"?

When did our society decide it owes everyone a decent existence....whatever happened to personal gumption and initiative? America is descending into a nation of takers who don't wanna work. People continue to wallow and wallow in self pity. America is no longer the home of the brave.

The America you speak of never existed. This country has always been a nation of takers who don't want to work. This land was taken from the Natives and built on the backs of slaves. It's not about self pity, it's about justice.

And as human beings, it's our duty to help others experience a decent existence.

NO!!! this nation wasn't built on that premise IE take from others and don't ever contribute. Are U implying/claiming that blacks single handedly built this country? STOP with this nonsense about justice for all and we owe others a decent living/existence....how 'bout personal gumption and getting off ones lazy ass....this nation wasn't built on the back of lazy peoples.....I see homeless people everyday of my life and they aren't starving and, there's literally hundreds of organizations feeding and clothing them....wallow in self-pity and you'll never have 2 work a day in your life.

What did the US give the Native Americans for all the land and resources they took? Not a damn thing. They invoked Manifest Destiny, and claimed it was their divine right to take everything. What did the US give the slaves for all their hard work? Not a damn thing.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't work to live. Of course they should, but let's not act like a lot of people in power haven't shaped law and the country as a whole so that they could make max money off of minimal effort. That's what slavery was about. Rich plantation owners wanted to get richer and they didn't want to do the work or pay for the workers so they force people to do it virtually for free and that was sanctioned by this country for decades.

I understand your point

My point was about how long do we as an nation continue to live in that legacy. Just image the millions upon millions of your fellow Americans who didn't have anything to do with those times....how much longer should the guilt trip be laid at the feet of people who were never ever involved in that legacy? Why do so many non-whites hold those on the periphery of this issue responsible? why!? It never ends it just goes on and on and on and on and on.

Not much longer as a black man I know that America will never change to my liking. Africa may not be the place to go but there are options of other countries to live

When did I ignore current progress. I've gone on record as saying that I think it's stupid when people act like racism is the same now as it always is. That said, just because things have gotten better doesn't mean they are perfect. And just because you acknowledge improvements doesn't mean you shouldn't also point out remaining inequities. And your "some black people have done it so every black person should be able to do it" is the same dumb rhetoric every racist uses to criticize the plight of blacks. Some blacks managed to become rich during slave days. Does that mean it was just as easy for all blacks to do it? During Reconstruction, a lot of blacks climbed up their station. Some even attained government offices. Does that mean that American society was suddenly fair towards blacks? No, that line of reasoning is dumb when applied to those times and it's dumb when applied to now.

Past that, I'm not sure what your silly little rant even means. Who is even saying that we should help a bunch of people who aren't willing to help themselves? Taking care of people who are in unfortunate positions and assuring that everyone has some reasonable base standard of living is no the same as promising someone a rose garden. That's the whole reason we have governments and civilized societies. You give up some of your rights and adhere to a set of laws created by a governing body with the agreement that the governing body will assure certain things for you. No, that doesn't mean that people who just want to sit on their asses should be handed riches, but it does mean that if you live in the nation, are willing to abide by the rules, and will work as necessary to assure a good life that the nation should put some effort into assuring that as a possibility.

Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

Yeah the Casinos that somehow didn't stop Native Reservations from being basically 3rd world nations within a nation.

Niggas think that they own things and man sits high upon thrones
But when you die, tell me what the fuck you own.
When your skin, flesh, and bones find a permanent home
as food for worms or fossils trapped in stone. - Rza in "What's Going On?"

I always assumed MLK's last minute realization was a slight over sight on his part. Dude was so busying fighting for civil rights that he might have over looked how much damage the "burning house" was in. Not noticing it till it was too late. Dude didn't regret what he did and it sounded like he still believed what he did was right.

He just realized the problem was bigger than he thought. He still believed it was worth fighting for and that his people wouldn't be destroyed by it. Not really a change in his way of thinking.

The quote from X did make me chuckle at MLK's comment, though. Dude made a clever point, as he usually did back then. All I can say is that if the shoe fits, wear it.

I can't believe that people think that the loss of a whole fucking hemisphere can be equalized by the granting of permits to buid casinos. Anyway the past is the past and we should move forward and build a brighter future but the MLK LETS all be american and learn to love white people

way of doing things has run it's course we have got all we can get out of it and we need to try new things like only loving ourselves and our race. Put the interest of the black race first not america we should turn inward and build ourselves only using america as a tool to do that.

Malcolm moved away from a lot of the things he said earlier in his career. At the time of his death he was more inclined to hear argument of integration.
I think Martin always believed his cause but he saw it couldn't be fought with one front.