Besides, it's probably hard to find a modern SFTV series that doesn't have characters making references to Star Trek as a fictional series at some point.

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Past references aren't enough to stop crossovers; there's been several Trek references on Doctor Who, but there was still consideration of trying to do a crossover episode (before Enterprise was cancelled), and IDW later released a TNG/DW crossover comic.

(And past crossovers aren't enough to stop references. The lead character of In Plain Sight cameoed on Law & Order: Criminal Intent before the show aired; but my understanding is that the writers of IPS later made reference to Law & Order as a TV show.)

Past references aren't enough to stop crossovers; there's been several Trek references on Doctor Who, but there was still consideration of trying to do a crossover episode (before Enterprise was cancelled), and IDW later released a TNG/DW crossover comic.

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And there were many Trek references in X-Men and other Marvel comics before the X-Men/Trek crossovers were done. But such crossovers are out-of-continuity "imaginary stories." Although maybe in DW it could be justified, given that there is precedent for the TARDIS crossing into fictional realms (e.g. "The Mind Robber").

(And past crossovers aren't enough to stop references. The lead character of In Plain Sight cameoed on Law & Order: Criminal Intent before the show aired; but my understanding is that the writers of IPS later made reference to Law & Order as a TV show.)

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Sure, such things slip through sometimes, but that doesn't make it desirable to cross over two universes that have referenced each other as fiction. I feel it undermines believability, and if a universe has referred to Trek as fiction, then for me, that rules it out as a candidate for inclusion in Trek history.

And I'd be seriously surprised if neither CASTLE or BUFFY ever referenced Trek, as the pop-culture references fly fast and furious on those shows.

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I'm watching an old episode of Castle on one of my local channels, and Beckett just made a reference to Klingons. So there's at least one in Castle.

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Castle and Beckett are both big SF/comics fans, so I'm sure there have been a number of Trek references among all the other sci-fi/fantasy nods. There must've been some in the SF-convention episode they did (not sure this counts, but there was a William Shatner spoken-word song played over the final scene of that episode).

I just don't think most franchises lend themselves to crossovers with Trek, particularly Dr Who. Not only do history and technology not fit, neither do the laws of physics. And as Scotty says, 'You cannae change the laws of physics...'

I wish there was a Doctor Who crossover during Star Trek's original run. Patrick Troughton was the Doctor then...that would have been fantastic. But a dream is just a dream.

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Yeah, that would've been pretty much impossible. British audiences never saw Star Trek until July 1969, three weeks after the final Troughton episode ended and about six weeks after TOS's final episode aired. And US audiences didn't see Doctor Who until the '70s, in limited release, and then more widely in the '80s. So at the time both shows were on the air, neither show's audience would've had any awareness of the other, and indeed neither show's producers would've been likely to have much awareness of the other.

I just don't think most franchises lend themselves to crossovers with Trek, particularly Dr Who. Not only do history and technology not fit, neither do the laws of physics. And as Scotty says, 'You cannae change the laws of physics...'

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Yeah, as I remarked, that's the crux of the problem. The fundamental worldbuilding is often so different that you just can't reconcile different universes.

I think it's been suggested that it might be possible to fit Blake's 7 into the Trek continuity as a dystopian future, one where the Federation has turned oppressive and evil. It probably doesn't fit due to the lack of established Trek races, though. I do think it's possible to fit B7 into Doctor Who's much looser future history, though.

Yeah, that would've been pretty much impossible. British audiences never saw Star Trek until July 1969, three weeks after the final Troughton episode ended and about six weeks after TOS's final episode aired. And US audiences didn't see Doctor Who until the '70s, in limited release, and then more widely in the '80s. So at the time both shows were on the air, neither show's audience would've had any awareness of the other, and indeed neither show's producers would've been likely to have much awareness of the other.

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Thanks for the Doctor Who history (I did not know when it actually came over to the States).

I knew it was an unrealistic fantasy but it's still something I would have loved to see.

Of course in a lot of cases Crossovers are badly written in my opinion and don't often live up to the hype.

Pretty much everything fits (or not) into Dr Who equally because of its constantly-changing timelines, that are often contradicted within the series itself. (And Dr Who is in fact fictional within the show itself on a couple of occasions!)

As for one show being fictional in another - that's less of a problem when you note that a) reality and art often cross in real life, and b) as often as not a show will be treated as real in one episode of the other franchise, and fictional in another, so you can take your pick. E.g. Trek is fictional in several Stargate episodes, but bat'leths appear in at least one...)

Carradine played (imagine!) an elderly horror actor who was now draining the blood of innocent victims in real life. But was he just an old-time Dracula actor whom had lost his grip on reality (the rational explanation) or was he actually a vampire posing as an actor who played a vampire? At the end, he supposedly falls to his death into a river, but there was note of ambiguity about it--and, say, what's with that bat flapping away?

I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo." MacGyver did it a lot in episodes where he debunked Bigfoot, UFOs, and the like. I prefer solid, unambiguous debunkings. If the writers want to say that something isn't real, they should take a stand and say it isn't real, not hedge for fear of offending anyone.

Of course, what you're describing isn't quite the same thing, but it reminded me of that, and I've had that rant simmering in my brain for decades.

I've never been a fan of those old '70s and '80s TV episodes where the heroes debunked a supernatural hoax but then there was a final gag that hinted "maybe it's real after all, woooo." MacGyver did it a lot in episodes where he debunked Bigfoot, UFOs, and the like. I prefer solid, unambiguous debunkings. If the writers want to say that something isn't real, they should take a stand and say it isn't real, not hedge for fear of offending anyone.

Of course, what you're describing isn't quite the same thing, but it reminded me of that, and I've had that rant simmering in my brain for decades.

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I doubt if the intent is to avoid offending anyone, so much as to add a spooky little frisson at the end . . . just for fun.

I don't think anyone watches McCloud or MaGyver to get their worldview validated. It's just fun to pretend that, ooh, maybe there really was something fantastic going on after all. It's just a cute way to work some sf/fantasy content into a mainstream show without going off the deep end . . . .

Off hand, I can't remember a Trek episode that could explain away in-universe references to "beam me up" or "Vulcan neck grips" in the modern day of the Trekverse. Was there any mention of a "Trek-like" TV show in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars series?

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Not that I recall, although there were some "Captain Proton" references in the third Khan book.

As I recall, I was sometimes coy and phrased things so that it was ambiguous as to whether, say, Emma Peel was being referenced as a real person or a fictional character on a TV show.

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I seem to recall a direct reference to Star Trek itself. I believe, though I'm not positive, that somebody was watching the show, probably in the 1970s.

Off hand, I can't remember a Trek episode that could explain away in-universe references to "beam me up" or "Vulcan neck grips" in the modern day of the Trekverse. Was there any mention of a "Trek-like" TV show in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars series?

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There's a Trek-as-TV reference in The Rings of Time, when Zoe speculates about "sexy green girls."

Personally, I like to think that Titan: Synthesis is a covert Transformers crossover. The Sentries believe that FirstGen Zero-One was destroyed in slipspace, but what if it simply decanted into another universe?

There's a Trek-as-TV reference in The Rings of Time, when Zoe speculates about "sexy green girls."

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Well, in-universe that could be a reference to other science fiction, since ST never had a monopoly on green alien women. After all, it's a natural extension of the "little green men" trope that's been around since the early 20th century. There was a green alien temptress who appeared in two Lost in Space episodes, for example.

(And past crossovers aren't enough to stop references. The lead character of In Plain Sight cameoed on Law & Order: Criminal Intent before the show aired; but my understanding is that the writers of IPS later made reference to Law & Order as a TV show.)

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This one is actually pretty easy to reconcile. The original L&O was a tv show in the In Plain Sight universe, it just never had a spin off called Criminal Intent.