October 17, 2008

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Accusing a Democrat of wanting to practice "socialism" is a bit strong for a Republican presidential or vice presidential candidate. The base would love to hear it -- it's one of their favorite words to describe Obama -- but no Republican campaign operative would want their candidate to go there.

But McCain operatives may have found a way to get that loaded phrase out there without actually having either McCain and Palin be responsible for making the accusation.

Naturally, Joe the Plumber has come to the rescue again.

Said Palin today at a rally in Ohio: "Joe suggested that sounded a little bit like socialism. Whatever you call it, I call it bad medicine for an ailing economy."

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This attack might work if George W. Bush hadn't just outed himself as the biggest socialist in this nation's history. After all, he's the one that nationalized the banks and the country's biggest insurance company.

According to Joe, any progressive tax policy is socialist. That's a stretch and he definitely needs to read up on socialism.
Joe's assumption is that the reward system in America is totally effort-based: you earn more because you work harder. Ask those folks who work three jobs, work more than 12 hours and sleep only 5 hours a day and still can't make ends meet. I don't think Obama's plan is to reward slackers. In fact, his main theme is how to make sure those who work hard can pursue their American dream. It's about equal opportunity for those who work hard: if you work very hard but still can't make ends meet, there is something wrong with the system and we need to address it so you can still afford to invest in your as well as your kids' future.

Dumb move. The "socialism" boogeyman doesn't scare as many people as it did back in the '80s and '90s. Heck, the way the economy is going, I bet a lot of people would welcome the idea of "sharing the wealth".

SOCIALISM gop style: redistribution of tax dollars from middle, upper and low income families via 'tax increment financing' to the waltons, cabelas, steinbrenners and george w. bushes of the country - just one example of the under the radar redistribution of billions of dollars - joe the plumber (not) could not possibly know about them nor do most voters - the amount spent on social welfare is a pittance compared to what the wealthy and connected siphon off - poor joe - used by mccain - busted as a non-plumber who may owe back taxes on his 40,000 or so salary - and he'd vote against his own best interest and support mccain - this explains why the election is still a close one - KEEP THE TAX CODE COMPLICATED ENOUGH AND YOU CAN FOOL AT LEAST 50% OF VOTERS INTO VOTING FOR THE GOP AND FOR THEIR OWN BRAND OF SOCIALISM FOR THE WEALTHY -

Fact: Residents of Alaska get a stipend every year. This money comes from taxing the oil companies. I believe it's called a windfall tax. This, my friends, according to McPalin, is socialism. But how could Alaska be socialist? Impossible. Not small town America. So then it's not socialist. Which means the "lower 48" should get the same benefit. If not, let's start calling Palin a socialist until we get what those small town Alaskans get. I know they are better than us, but still. I mean, I live in a town of 28,000. I might as well be Donald Trump I'm so out of touch.

SOCIALISM gop style: redistribution of tax dollars from middle, upper and low income families via 'tax increment financing' to the waltons, cabelas, steinbrenners and george w. bushes of the country - just one example of the under the radar redistribution of billions of dollars - joe the plumber (not) could not possibly know about them nor do most voters - the amount spent on social welfare is a pittance compared to what the wealthy and connected siphon off - poor joe - used by mccain - busted as a non-plumber who may owe back taxes on his 40,000 or so salary - and he'd vote against his own best interest and support mccain - this explains why the election is still a close one - KEEP THE TAX CODE COMPLICATED ENOUGH AND YOU CAN FOOL AT LEAST 50% OF VOTERS INTO VOTING FOR THE GOP AND FOR THEIR OWN BRAND OF SOCIALISM FOR THE WEALTHY -

It was Barry who wanted to "spread the wealth around" that is socialism in the making when it is government doing the spreading. In case you didn't notice when you tax corporations it is us that ays the bill. Prices include the taxes collected/paid by corporations so the more you tax the "big guys" the more you pay. You can't "punish" corporate America without shooting yourself in the foot.

Dude, to these people, everything is socialism.
Medicare? Socialism.
Library? A Socialized book-store.
Police? A socialized night watch.
Fire Department? Socialized insurance.
These people think public schools are Maoist or something.

Bob-
not only will you pay more...you will end up bringing less home than your friend. That's the point of socialism...it takes the motivation to succeed away, so no one is driven to be better than someone else. Down with the successful people!

Acutally, teddymaniac, I believe Joe assumes that work that requires a skill, as well as a particular level of education, produces a product or service that is in demand. No disrespect meant, but it is easier, and cheaper, for a grocery store to find cashiers as the job doesn't really demand a high level of skill, and there is a large pool of potential workers. However, how many engineers, lawyers, nurses and doctors, etc. are there, and what is the value of their work? That's why these people are paid more. Socialism says these workers should provide for the less skilled or educated; this would lead to fewer people seeking higher skilled positions since they don't get to enjoy a return on their investment of time and money to become educated. Additionally, it make those on the "receiving" end less likely to want to improve their status, as they are provided for by the state. Eventually, the whole thing collapses, as has been demonstrated around the world.

Bob-
With McCain's plan, you would only pay 25% in taxes on your business...with Obama's...you would pay 39%.
Under McCain's plan you could probably hire another employee. Under Obama's, there is no point to expand your business or hire employees, because the more you make the more you are punished.

DEAR LUCKY 46 - am not talking just about corporate taxes - i'm talking about privately owned business that are paid for by local taxes and owned solely by families, groups of individuals - they compete with business that get no tax $$ and often their only profit, as in the case of george w's stadium, is from tax subsidy - they don't have to be well run, because the local tax payers are forced to subsidize them - just one of many ways to spread the wealth upward - centralization of commerce with a few connected players making billions - thanks but no thanks - get a pulitzer in economics, as david cay johnston did, then you can debate the merits of 'perfectly legal' and 'free lunch' - til then, stay happy, dumb, and duped

"Hi guyz and galz, this is me, Sarah Falin brinin you the latest from the campaign trail. Well today we visited another Pro-American state and I gotta tell ya, they are VERY Pro-American, I mean, they support my running-mate John McCain so they must be Pro-America right? yeah,haha, YES! USA YES! and I love this great Nation called Americka and all it's great pro-american six-packing Joe states. Even in the AIP we have some Pro-AIP but it's not the same. Well, I gotta go and shoot more moose"

Say it with me folks. Progressive taxation is not socialism. Raising taxes during war time is standard procedure in America. Federal investment in infrastructure is expected by the U.S. taxpayer. These are not radical concepts.

European-style socialism is what the Far Left wants to bring here. Certainly Pelosi and Reid will march to their drumbeat for a far-reaching liberal agenda. Obama will bend to their views as well if elected, because he relies on their support.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Colin Powell who stood in front of the United Nations and made the case for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and the need to remove Saddam by force? Yet, you never hear his name mentioned when it comes to who "lied us into this war". How can Obama blame Bush, but leave Powell off the hook? Could it be because Powell doesn't look like anyone on the dollar bills?

So, it's ok to use "Joe the Plumber" to attack Obama, but Democrats (and the press if they are doing their job) is not supposed to challenge Joe's credibility? Joe the lying, unlicensed, broke, tax evading "plumber" calling Obama a socialist? Please!

"Bob obviously doesn't do his own taxes "
IF Bob's making that much, then being in the upper 5% of the nation, and still doesn't understand how tax brackets work, or if he's confusing his salary with his post deduction taxable income, then yea, he REALLY needs a tax consultant....or maybe he's not real or maybe like Joe he's worrying about things that don't really effect him (nor the other hard working 95% of us).
Bob, what you'd hypothetically pay over what your hypothetical friend pays is a pittance either under GWB, McCain, or Obama. As someone else put it - don't let the tax tail wag the dog.
And don't be fooled by the red herring issues and tossed about inflammatory labels.

Posted By: If Bob is real (and if Joe was Joe) | October 17, 2008 at 05:22 PM

Bob will obviously take home more money than his friend - even after paying a slightly higher marginal tax rate on the $2000 he makes over the $250,000 threshold. Republican posters claiming otherwise are either misinformed or purposely lying. Big shock there.

news flash: we do not have a free-market capitalist system - doctors make what the insurance companies & government programs tell them they will pay - a brilliant engineer is never gonna make as much as a broker or hedge fund gambler selling credit default swaps and toxic paper w/ so little regulation that they collectively collapse the credit markets, all the while keeping their multi-million dollar accounts - we are not a meritocracy - being connected matters - having a successful lobbyist matters - (does anyone want to discuss the mccain advisor who lobbied for saddam hussein when he needed $ for weapons, etc - lobbyist was hoping for a piece of the iraq oil market) - capitalism at its best - everything for sale - let's get it all out in the open -

No insult intended to Colin Powell. Simply a re-telling of his role as Secretary of State during Bush's first term. He has now basically turned on those he worked for during that time, and now criticizes his former boss, and is rumored to want to endorse Obama. Not someone I would consider a loyal Republican.

This is the same Joe the Plumber who was interviewed talking about how much he hated Social Security -- he probably thinks that is socialism as well. Maybe they should send him to campaign with that line in retirement communities in Florida.

Patriot at 04:55 PM -- your post is hopelessly ill-informed. Yes, McCain's health plan calls for insurance premiums paid by one's employer to be considered taxable income (just like salary), but then it provides a $5,000 tax credit, so it's pretty much a wash.

There are a number of additional benefits to McCain's health plan, but I doubt you're astute (or open-minded) enough to understand them.

Well, liberal media should have educated public few years so "socialist" maybe would not be dirty word so much. Almost every European country have socialists in government or as main opposition party. Half of Latin America have socialist presidents. And sky haven't fell on earth... Though modern socialists try not to mention phrases like "Spreading the wealth". It sounds so Bolshevik cca 1920.

Bob, if you and your friend make that close to a quarter million a year Congratulations, you are in less than 5% of Americans. You are making around $20,000 a month. Good for you. If your biggest worry is whether you are paying more taxes than your friend maybe you should just pick richer friends.

To "Bob obviously doesn't do his own taxes" -- you're not too good at math yourself.

One of the biggest problems with Obama's tax plans for those who make over $250,000 per year is that for each additional dollar you make over the $250,000 threshhold, you get to keep only about $0.45 (other estimates are even lower). That's what kills incentive.

So Barry's chickens are finally coming home to roost. How funny. Why yes, Virginia, he IS a Socialist. He was even a member of the Socialist "New Party" in Chicago. He can run but he can't hide from his past (and apparently present as his encounter with "Joe" shows). Sorry, Democrats, but the far-left hijacking of the Democratic Party that Barack Obama spearheaded is too true to be kept out of sight forever. Now all that Alinksy, Ayers, ACORN stuff makes a lot more sense...

RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU THINK WE HAVE OPEN, FREE-MARKET, CAPITALISM - if your hand is up, use it to give yourself a dope slap - if you have invested, like many successful,professional self-employeds, a couple million in stock, we lose money whenever some ceo walks off with a salary he didn't earn - comes right out of our shares - stan o'neal at merrill lynch, with his 151 million $ retirement, while company lost 8 billion in a quarter, come to mind? how about james cayne at bear stearns - sold his stake in the failing company for 60 million - lehman brothers gave richard fuld 354 million over 5 years - they are now bankrupt - he keeps his while we bail out the entire system = socialism for the rich - they could bail out the country with the combined haul from the upper management of the failing companies but somehow i don't think it is gonna happen - they are too connected - financial reward based on competence is an american myth, right up there with the tooth fairy - it's just more complicated - and obama is not proposing anything like a euro.socialist system - just a level playing field, some transparency, and accountablilty - sounds fair to me - and i will pay a lot more under his tax plan - so what? figure my stocks will be worth more if the companies are run by guys who have to perform to get paid - win, win situation -

?Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.? If the American people are foolish enough to elect Barack Obama to the presidency, we will have the equivilent of the triumvirate in Rome: Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Obama. With no checks or balances from the House or Senate (all liberal controlled) all America loses. Our system was designed and set up to contain itself through the opposing political systems. This one issue is far and away enough reason to elect John McCain as the next president.

The Obama Socialist Agenda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgc4zm3XrBc
?The truth is most Americans don?t want much. Folks don?t want the whole pie. Someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so someone else can have more.?
Michelle Obama, speaking in North Carolina
PWNED!!!
America will not stand for Obama's radical socialist agenda!
No Way! No How! NOBAMA!!
Go back to Chicago, Obama, and take your socialism agenda with you!

Posted By: Senator Government and his wife = Socialism | October 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM

This woman just spews vile hate, lies,and trash wherever she goes. The ultimate irony will come when she, all holier-than-thou, does meet God in the afterlife...and He casts her into the pits of hell for being the hateful, divisive creature that she is. You reap what you sow, cupcake. Remember that.

Why is ANYONE listening to Sarah Palin?? She talks about how she is WASHINGTON OUTSIDER. What about firing someone who won't fire a trooper you don't like. What about using Alaska dollars to build and athletic center and they build YOUR house for free!!! YEAH RIGHT, WASHINGTON OUTSIDER!!!!!

Chicago party put obama on their slate - he did not agree, did not endorse their views, is allowed in chicago and some other cities - he did not join - are all the well-known, respectable gop woods and annenberg board members now socialists too because they were as familiar with and interacted with mr. ayers to the same degree as obama ? they attended the same meetings, discussed the same use of funds, progams, etc as mr ayers - they are now ALL SUSPECT? wow - i am definitely not doing any more philanthropic board work at all - you see where this leads? the ignorant and mean-spirited, the hustlers and the frauds, they'll use anything to defame an honest man - or woman -

Barack Obama is using Jeremiah Wright's bigotry to go after Joe the Plumber. Obama is a closet racist.
JOe the plumber does not need a license as long as the company he works for is licensed. Joe just is preparing for the American dream of purchasing his own business one day. Obama and Biden made a huge mistake by tearing down this average AMerican.
Save America from HIgh Taxes and Socialism - Vote John MCain!!!!!
Under a Barack Obama Presidency the American Dream Stops at $250, 000.

Ok...wait a second are you serious JM. They have been accusing the Obama campaign of being socialist in every single outlet possible (bloggers, Fox News, Repub radio)... to say that its SOME LARGE LEAP for a CANDIDATE to use the word... is preposterous even more so to say the CAMPAIGN WOULDNT WANT TO GO THERE... THEY ARE ALREADY THERE. LOL

dear mvj31: community organizer before he went to law school, where he was so brilliant he was appointed president of the harvard law review - went to work for law firm, was hired also by univ.chicago to teach constitutional law - wife worked for several years for top law firm after graduation - he made enough money on his book to afford his house with NO MONEY FROM REZKO AT ALL - and no preferential treatment from banks or sellers - bought a 10 foot strip of land adjacent to his house from rezko's wife for over 100,000 - doesn't sound like a hand out to me - he and his wife have brains, education, ambition, work ethic - they won't make anywhere near the kind of money a hedge fund mgr made, but they'll do just fine -

- THE TRUTH ABOUT OBAMA?S INCOME- CAPITAL GAINS- DIVIDENT TAX INCREASE--Obama wants to raise taxes on Income, for families earning more than $250,000 annually. BUT what he does not tell you is how it affects small business. Under his plan, the top two marginal tax rates will increase from 33 to 36 percent and from 35 to 39.6 percent, while both the capital-gains tax and dividend tax will rise from 15 to 20 percent. According to Internal Revenue Service data, half of all business income is taxed at Individual Tax Rates, and about two-thirds of all income is earned by small-business owners with annual incomes exceeding $200,000. The bottom line: Up to one-third of all business income is taxed at the above two marginal rates. GET IT ? So I have no doubt that many small businesses will pay higher taxes, negatively affecting their bottom line. -- Most common capital gains are realized from the sale of stocks, bonds, precious metals and property. The capital gains tax provides incentives for people to invest in new business, and directly impacts the value of equities. It also influences the rate of investment, particularly in new, high-risk ventures When a corporation issues common stock to finance new business, the returns on that investment are TAXED TWICE, once at the Corporate level and then again at the Individual level when dividends are received by shareholders. This DOUBLE TAX comes from the same folks who tax both Social Security benefits, and Unemployment benefits. -During his Presidency President Bill Clinton signed legislation that chopped the capital-gains tax rate down to 20 percent. - Strange how Democrats seem to have selective memory concerning this tax cut. And once again economic growth, investment, jobs, and federal tax receipts all increased. Despite this progress, the current capital-gains tax rate now15 percent for individuals is still too high. Many foreign countries tax capital gains at much lower rates, putting the U.S. at a competitive disadvantage. The U.S. is currently in the middle of the 30-member OECD pack in terms of taxing capital gains. Fourteen OECD countries do not tax capital gains at all. DIVIDENTS --The 2003 dividend tax cut from 35 to 15 percent further provided incentives for companies to pay out dividends rather than retain their earnings. Dividend payments therefore were estimated to have increased by 20 percent. According to the AARP- American Association of Retired Persons, ?Of the nearly $150 billion in dividends that were reported on tax returns in 2000, people aged 65 and older received a highly disproportionate share - 48 percent. Because as the professionals say- these are the safer Mom and Pop -big business type stocks or bonds that pay dividends that supplement retirement income. UNDERSTAND- So if Obama increases taxes on these stocks and bonds do yah think it might affect allot of older retired people.-- Now in the middle of a recession is the wrong time to hike taxes on entrepreneurs and investors who have already suffered tremendous losses this year. ALSO remember that Capital Gains taxes affect the sale and transfer of both businesses and HOUSES. Does the housing market need any more problems then it already has ? -Not a easy topic to understand-and worse trying to make it understandable.

@Illinois bot: there you go again. John McCain is essentially taking money from my left pocket and giving it to my boss, then slipping a couple of bucks into my right pocket to distract me. And to think that he has the audacity to accuse Obama of "spreading the wealth."

You talk about the dems not liking free speech. Well, here's some news for you. A CNN reporter was talking about how Sarah Palin's husband was part of the AIP, the Alaskan Independence Movement. They want to leave America. She spoke at one of their meetings in July 2008. The reporter DURING HIS SPEECH received an email message from McCain's staff to SHUT UP OR ELSE. They threatened him. Now, what were you saying about the dems taking away your free speech?????????????????????

Fear-mongers, throwing stones from glass houses can be dangerous. John McCain's judgment and values have placed him on the wrong side of history and history is repeating itself. Why get screwed a 3rd time by the same purveyors of bad judgement?
You can't handle the truth!
(Or can you? If you really are passionate about not handing over your hard earned money to others then learn from history. Follow the money - follow the testimony:)
http://www.keatingeconomics.com/?source=sem-pm-google&gclid=COXlyoCjr5YCFQVfFQodlA-XLg

Posted By: Judgement - Lets air it all out | October 17, 2008 at 06:25 PM

McCain is a product of the most socialist system in the US The military. Government provided housing, health care, subsidize food, equal pay reguardless of proformance or skill level. If he were a real capitalist, he would have earned his pay by raping and pilaging, just like the did in the good ole days....

Obama said "spread the wealth" and for some reason the O-bots are furious! He means it too--you bots need to see more $$$ for Michelle's lobster and caviar at the hotel! OH and Pelosi says the DNC needs more money (guess Michelle isn't too worried about sharing her pie is she). NO bother,,,Michelle and Pelosi are the queens of spending other people's money. All you bots who contribute your $100.00 can be proud that you bought Mrs O a spoonful of caviar! Where's that guy obsessed with McCain's shoes?

Posted By: Send More Money for Caviar and Lobster | October 17, 2008 at 06:31 PM

WHY is sharing the wealth so bad? Are all you repubs who are AGAINST sharing the wealth going to lose something? What will you lose? You all must be VERY rich, and are afraid you'll lose millions. I'm waiting for your responses all you rich repubs out there!!!

"Joe suggested that sounded a little bit like socialism..." It sounds a lot like SOCIALISM. Obama has told his far leftist followers exactly what his presidency would be about. If there are any moderate Democrats left, they would be very concerned about taking America down the path to Socialism. This very danger is what our fathers and grandfathers fought against.

The Obama plan simply proposes to restore the top marginalk tax rate to what it was during the prosperous Clintion years - 39.6% rather than 36.0% as it is currently.
Therefore Bob will pay 39.6% on JUST the portion of his income that exceeds 250,00 (rather than 36.0% under current system). So if Bob makes, say, 252,000, then he will pay 72 dollars more under the Obama plan than under the current system.

If Obama wins I'll be joining the 'bots on the handout line because my business will close, but, no worries, the GUBEMINT WILL SAVE ME!!! I have to say that because when an average citizen speaks against Obama policy, his GESTAPO minions here try to destroy the citizen instead of dealing with the policies they themselves are advocating! Which one of you bots is going to be the first to send me your check? I won't be working. Why should I, so I could support some of you lazy-*** socialists?

Anon@5:12 PM: Bob- With McCain's plan, you would only pay 25% in taxes on your business...with Obama's...you would pay 39%. Under McCain's plan you could probably hire another employee. Under Obama's, there is no point to expand your business or hire employees, because the more you make the more you are punished.

Um. NO. Paying an employee is a deductible business expense. If you take in more money (gross) and hire more people with it, there's no extra tax burden. How hard is this people??? A business is taxed on it's profits, not its gross revenue.

As the election draws closer and more and more people pay closer attention to the candidates many are not liking what they see. Although I am a registered democrat, I will not vote for obama or any other democrat candidate down ticket this election cycle. I question obamas integrity, obamas character, obamas judgment, obamas associations, obama?s black power racist ideology, obamas socialist/marxist background. I cannot relate to obama in any fashion. We come from two vastly different ideologies, and have opposing political views. obama has continuously refused to produce a legal birth certificate. obama has failed to fill in far to many blanks in his resume, and has to many shady and anti American associations. My vote will go to McCain, a Vote that is for America and her foundation/principals, and as such, is a repudiation of the fraud obama. Used2bdemocrat

r the repubs bangin on Powell because he may be coming out today in support of Obama?
That's understandable...but can you please stop cluttering up valuable cyber space with these non issues...I dont care who supports BO or JM...I care about which one of these men will best support me and 95% of my fellow country persons. I dont care if you call that kind of help socialism or marxism or any other label you want to place on it..but last I heard, this country's constitution said something about "we the people" and not "we the corporations". If u call the leveling of taxes so that 95% of the people are given some relief and corporations finally be required to get off corporate welfare and ante up (as we've done), SOCIALISM then call me a socialist. The wealth would not need to be systemically spread around if our current system did what it should have been doing: Serve the People!!

Uh, George Bush did what he did cause your guy Barack Hussein Obama and his community organizing pals, and his economic advisors who worked for Fannie Mae/Frddie Mac buddies, i.e. Franklin Raines, etc., forced the banks of this country to collapse with their blackmail strategies. Forcing banks to make subprime loans to unqualified people. You don't want to go down this road to blame Bush, cause you'll lose. Get some brains and follow the money and accept the truth for once, it leads to Comrade Obama and the dems, you twits. Your guy is a socialist and a marxist. Live with it. As usual Bush is left to clean up the liberal democrats mess and you morons blame him. Classic blame shifting blood sucking liberal ticks. Grow up for once. Check the facts.

yes, vonya, you and Obama are socialists. Obama talks about "tax cuts" for 95% of working families. But guess what? About 47% of workers don't pay any income tax right now. So how does that work?

In Obama's socialist world, taxes are collected from a few and then checks are sent to those that haven't paid any taxes. That's not a "tax cut," that's welfare.

And by the way, corporations can't really pay taxes. Where does the money come from? The water cooler? No, it comes from higher prices charged to consumers and lower salaries and benefits for employees, and lower dividiends for shareholders.

It's like Fred Thompson said, if you believe that Barack Obama is going to give you a tax cut while increasing taxes paid by corporations, you'll believe that someone can take water out of one half of the pail but not the other.

God, reading what the McCain/Palin supporters have to say on this post reminds me of reading about Sodom and Gomorrah all over again. Just curious...how does it feel to wake up every morning being so peed off, judgmental, and angry at the world?

TO all who think they are so bright, so well informed, here is the reply from the campaign you support regarding taxes. News Flash! FROM HUSSEIN OBAMAS TAX PLAN, IT APPEARS YOU ALL WILL NEED TO KEEP THOSE THREE JOBS THAT YOU SAY YOU WORK IF YOU WANT TO GET SOME CRUMBS FROM HUSSEIN OBAMAS "TAX CREDITS", NOT TAX INCOME. aRE YOU WONDERING YET WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED ON? SOCIALISM HAS FAR WORSE THINGS THAN A TAX REDUCTION IN STORE FOR YOU. VOTE FOR THE MARXIST OBAMA IF YOU LIKE, BUT REMEMEBER IT WILL BE YOU THAT YOU CAN BLAME WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE IN THIS COUNTRY BY THE PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT FALL IN LINE BEHIND THIS FRAUD OR HIS SOCIALIST AGENDA. READ THE CAMPAIGN REPLY ON TAXES BELOW IF YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH TO INTERPRET WHAT YOU READ?
http://www.spectator.org/archives/2008/10/16/searching-for-obamas-95-percen

Good try, lcalame, but Obama has also said he wants to re-impose social security tax on people who make more than $250,000. So Bob would pay $201 more than he pays now.

But the real point is that Bob would be paying a total of $921 federal tax on $2000 earned. Add in state and other taxes, and pretty soon Bob is taking home less than half of each additional dollar he makes. That is what kills incentive to work. That is what kills jobs.

TAX MAN SONG BY THE BEATLES,USE IT AT MC CAIN CAPAIGN RALLIES
OBAMA IS THE TAX MAN
Let me tell you how it will be
There?s one for you, nin'teen for me
Cause I'm the tax man
Yea I'm the tax man
Should five percent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
Cause I'm the tax man
Yea I'm the tax man
If you drive a car-car I'll tax the street
If you try to sit-sit I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk I'll tax your feet
Tax man
Well I'm the tax man
Yea I'm the tax man
Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
Cause I'm the tax man
Yea I'm the tax man
Now my advice for those who die (tax man)
Declare the pennies on your eyes (tax man)
Cause I'm the tax man
Yea I'm the tax man
And you're working for no one but me
(Tax man

Patriot at 06:20 PM -- what are you talking about? Under McCain's health plan, insurance premiums paid by your employer will be considered taxable income, just like salary.

That money will not go to your boss. It will go to the tax revenue base. (It's a wash for your boss, because both salary and insurance payments are business expenses that are deductible.)

Then, you will get a tax credit of $5,000, which should more than cover the tax you paid on your employer-provided health insurance. So it's a wash for you too. Is that concept really so hard for you to grasp?

As I said before and i reiterate, the far left agenda within the democrat party as been sowing the seeds of socialism for years now. e.g. 1. Early 1990's Clinton administration pushes for NAFTA/ GATT, WTO & 'Irrevocable most favored nation trading status' for Red China. In return for vast amounts of foreign funding into the Democratic coffers. 2. Clinton and far left pushed for more restrictive gun control laws and tries to destroy 2nd Amendment rights. But tables turned and America revolted ousting democrats from house and senate in 1994. 3. Clinton administration nominates Ruth Bader-Ginsberg to Supreme Court, 'Imminent Domain' laws upheld to strip private ownership of land that the goverment covets. And most recently now shrugs the resposibility of seeing that laws made to insure fair elections sans fraud are upheld. 4. With a gaffe on Obama's part he reveals his 'finial economic solution' to strip those he wishes to, of hard earne wealth, and redisribute it to the lazy deadbeats and brainwashed radical followers. Oh yes, Socialism is alive and well! Move over Trotsky, Lenin, Chavez, and Castro...there is a new kid in town... Barack 'Marx Headroom' Obama is coming!
it will be interesting to see the Obama radicals in college right now, seeking what jobs will be left for them after graduation. and as youth often prefer to rebel against their parents... how will the Obama Jugend that have been pressed into singing praises of the 'Dear Leader' rebel against their parents in 8 to 12 years? I hope they all become Born Again Christians Conservatives. And drive their parents into state run asylms to waste away their lives, babbling about what ungrateful little punks they and the state tried to raise.

these attacks against 'joe are very revealing. the guy was just hanging out in his yard when barack approached HIM. he asked a reasonable question. it was barack's ANSWER about 'spreading around the wealth' that made the encounter newsworthy. now we are supposed to join in the group hate of the guy who happened to ask the question ?!? the dear leader, the one, the messiah can do no wrong and all who question his greatness must be destroyed !! frightening.

"This very danger is what our fathers and grandfathers fought against."
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
Along with many others my grandfather volunteered to fight in WWII against fascism NOT socialism. And like many He was a democrat and proud for those associated attributes. He stood up for fairness all of his life. In his spare time he volunteered to teach people to read, taught 1st aid, gave blood every chance allowed, and helped people to get ahead in life.
Don't presume to know others or paint all with the same broad and overly partisan brushes. Doing so you only come off as divisive or ignorant and afraid. Bless the USA.

Both Obama and Biden are to the left of Bernie Sanders (I-VT), the only "admitted" socialist in the US Senate. The Democrats have put up a flawed candidate, just as they did with Kerry, Gore, Dukakis, Mondale and McGovern.
Obama is too liberal for America.

The Republican parties ship is sinking and McCain breaks out a dixicup. His man Joe isn't licensed, he cheats on his taxes, and under Obama's tax plan he would actually get a tax decrease.
Has McCain always been this incredibly dumb. I use to think he might be smarter than Bush, but now I'm not so sure.

"Accusing a Democrat of wanting to practice 'socialism' is a bit strong for a Republican..."

Especially since Republicans elected the administration that has engineered the biggest socialist takeover of the American economic engine in history. And don't forget those banks, the largest in the world, own the loans for America's biggest corporations too.

The G. O. P. has totally powned the old Democrat South since 1964 and completely co-opted those pro-Vietnam war liberals that we call neo-conservatives today.

Now we see the result, their long-sought pay-off, a Republican administration dominated by southern-proud Texas neo-cons crushing the US economy under the mega-ton weight of a hyper-expansive, pro-interventionist, neo-empirical war ideology.

Old-school corporate socialism-by-necessity, brought to you by the final alignment of the D.C. business-elite, God-fearing Southern scalawags, and those former-Communist neo-con agents like Pearl, Kristol, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Douglas Feith... and now Joe Wurzelbacher...

Neo-GOP-Communism, my friends! That's what your buddy Joe-the-Plumber should be bellyaching about. Instead he's here to push your irony button, the one wired to the social-confusion neurons in your brain.

Like Joe , formerly of the left-of-guru Natural Law Party you simply haven't paid close enough attention to realize the party you believe you belong to doesn't even exist.

I use my real name.
Everytime I hear Obama's plan to redistribute the wealth of this country, I think of 'Robin Hood, Robin Hood, flying through the glen, with his band of men, Robin Hood, Robin Hood, Robin Hood.)

You Republicans are ridiculous with this "socialism" charge. Socialism is common ownership of property, business, etc. What the REPUBLICANS just did in buying stakes in private companies is "socialism". What the Democrats propose as far as taxes is NOT socialism. It's just common sense. The economy is driven by consumption. Income disparity has increased dramatically and so has inflation under Republican rule. The reason? Under what the Republicans propose, profits for businesses increase (in the short term at least) but both purchasing power of consumers and the value of the dollar decreases, which is effectively a tax on the non-rich, and actually hurts us more financially than raising taxes, which ultimately leads to businesses' profits decreasing anyway, because they aren't doing any business because their customers don't have any money. Statistically, the economy ALWAYS does better under Democratic administrations. This is because the Democrats understand that the economy is driven by consumption, not by supply. Both the rich, AND the middle class do much better under the Democrats' approach. So please, spare me the "socialism" bullcrap. Just because in your ignorance, you say something, doesn't make it so.

Denise, sorry you democrats just can't stand the truth about your guy. Rather than give an intelligent rebuttal all you can do is accuse. If we are angry it's because some of us have lived long enough to see the failures of democrat party's folly, and you people keep wanting to vote these clowns in office. I am passionate about my country's future. You may not know this if you went to school in America in the past 30 years but a lot of people DIED for this country. We don't want a socialist distibuting our monies to more people and causes we don't support.

Well, when you have Republicans in Ohio focus groups saying they want the government to go back to running Wal-Mart the way Reagan did, I think even "socialism" may be too abstract a concept for the "Joe Plumbers" of the world.

U-N-I-verse.... Democrats are in contol of BOTH the House and the Senate. The Republicans can't do a single thing without the support of the Democrat controlled governement which has existed for the last 2 years. Perhaps you weren't aware of that, but it's fact. If the Government of the United States is going to invest in banks, it first must pass through both houses of Congress. Which as i mentioned before are controlled by Democrats. As far as socialism. When you take EARNINGS from one person and give them to another, that is Socialism. By the way... You left out the distribution of Capital in your "definition" of Socialism. Here... Let me help you... 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. When you take from one who has more, and give it to another who has less, that is the DEFINITION OF SOCIALISM!!! Just like Obama told "Joe the Plumber".

When Obama was talking about "spread the wealth," he wasn't talking about talking away money from the middle class and giving it to the poor. He was talking about raising taxes of the largest businesses and keeping 95 percent of Americans' taxes the same. When he said to "spread the wealth," he would do it by taking money from those who have accumulated it most during the eight years of Bush administration and decades of deregulation and redistributing that wealth around to the middle class.
That also means redefining other programs, not just economic, but also health and education as well. Because in this kind of system, whatever taxes taken from the large businesses and corporations will be spread around through better education and health coverage, which also means for the middle class less money to pay for them. This also goes for energy, where Obama is pushing for research and development of alternative energy that will lessen America's need for foreign oil, and which means for the middle class less to pay for energy consumption.
I've been watching the US elections (I'm foreign) and it's stupid that Palin doesn't understand this kind of "socialist" thinking. She's a nutcase. How is it ever bad for an ailing economy to spread the wealth from those who have accumulated it unfairly to the middle class who have worked for it so much?
Wake up America.

excuse me, but neither Obama's ideas or me for that matter are socialist. If you could leave that buzzword out of your rant until you at least understand what it means..I'd be impressed. Do u trust wikipedia?? It defines socialism in part as: an economic theory of social organization advocating social or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.
While our country has not attempted to bring about an egalitarian society there are components of Socialism intrenched in the governmental bail outs of the banking and insurance industries.
As some of you toss the Socialist label at Obama, you may want to reconsider in light of actual information and place it where it belongs...on the party in office ...a trillion dollar bailout ushers in elemental socialism. I cant tell you if this is what it took, but it may be what it took to solve the crisis. The crisis was brought about by our reckless spending... because we really believed that 10 billion a month on military expenses, inflated housing prices, whack mortgage loans, frozen wages, were not going to catch up with us...now we have to pay and in our desperation we've accepted our greatest fear (if socialism is in fact your fear). Now the government owns the banking system (or part of it), the insurance giant, and a whole lot of debt. Will the American people get paid before the Chinese Govt? That will be interesting...

I stand by my comment 100% based on historical facts... If it Quacks like a duck and walks like a duck... It's A Duck stupid!
No matter that Obama was caught on tape saying what he said, he lies in debate and says "that';s not what I was saying, what i meant was..." excuse me Barack, we you aren't brainwashed leftist, heard exactly what you said. For once you weren't vague on your plans and intentions... you came through loud and clear, comrade!

It's a disgrace that the "95%" figure wasn't challenged by the media. Obama will raise the taxes of middle class voters. Personally, I don't feel threatened by this, but it is a reality. I don't know what the figure is, but if you're a middle class single or joint taxpayer, Obama will raise your taxes to pay for his spending programs.

Barack Hussein Obama is a Socialist. Socialist, Socialist, Socialist. I'm sorry if you don't like this correct label of him. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is the simple explanation of Socialism. (That way you always get Paul's vote). That is what Obama wants to do. He spelled it out loud and clear to Joe the Plumber, that is why the dems and Obama's beloved lap dog media are so upset. It doesn't matter if "Joe" is a plant or not, the fact is Barack Hussein Obama is a socialist. His answer to Joe's question proves it. That's why they are reeling. Deal with it. By the way, explain to us how some people get their money "unfairly" and why they should be robbed so it can be distributed to the "middle class". I can't believe the outrageous stupidity of some of these posts. Trying to act like you know what your talking about all the while displaying your ignorance. Give it up.

Kevin, I'm betting the 95% figure will be redundent anyway. Just as Obama did while running for the IL. senate, promising a tax cut then...never happened. So I won't be counting my tax cut anytime soon now. that was all the same ol' rhetoric as before. And just like Clinton, once he's in he'll say "well I've looked at it and well due to that bad ol' Bush I'm gonna have to raise your taxes... but don't blame me or Rep. Barney Frank, Senator Dodd, Fannie and Freddie, ACORN, NO! NO! it was all that bad 'ol Bush".

"Democrats are in contol of BOTH the House and the Senate. The Republicans can't do a single thing without the support of the Democrat controlled governement which has existed for the last 2 years."
Which conveniently ignores the 6 stinking years that preceded that where the legislature AND non-vetoing Executive office steered this titanic towards the iceberg at full speed with the blinders down.
Now onto the last 2 years - of trying to steer from the iceberg (and a war) too late and with the veto power wheelhouse still in the hands of the same ole nearsighted captain.
I know we have selective memories but who are you fools gonna blame if not Bsuh and his supporters (which d*mned well does include JSMcCain)? And what's the difference between this unregulated fiscal disaster and the INFAMOUS Keating one McCain played all too big a role in? Too little difference except for scale - thanks to a deregulation mantra and execution this is a MUCH bigger pile of $#*! and guess who's gonna pay for it?
Go ahead, worry about that tax on that amount 19 out of 20 of you fools will never see let alone worry about. It's damned ironic that the real socialism of these bailouts and no-bid govt contracts and other bu!!$#*^ bridges to nowhere get a free pass from any middle class taxpayer with a brain.
Go ahead - pick the academic under achievers - then who will you blame when it happens a 3rd time? Or another war we can't afford is started by someone who can't pronounce nuclear? IDIOTS!

winchestereast BRAVO. i don't know how much mainsteam one can say it than you did. will the average republicans (under $250K annual)get it? will they even read it? they are soooo ****ed off by their party leaders alarmist fearmongering BS they won't accept the truth.

winchestereast BRAVO. i don't know how much mainsteam one can say it than you did. will the average republicans (under $250K annual)get it? will they even read it? they are soooo ****ed off by their party leaders alarmist fearmongering BS they won't accept the truth.

Point on Scooter!! I'm reading these Bush blamers and I guess 'stuck on stupid' should be the slogan for the Obama campaign. We all know that if Bush was to blame for this economic fiasco it would be shouted from every mountaintop and "news' source available, daily, forever. The reason we don't hear anything about it is because if it were truly investigated by a bi-partisan group, it will lead back to Obama and the democratic party. What's really over the top is knowing that those who got us into this mess, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Barack Obama and the rest are supposedly taking care of this 'problem'. The old cliche applies. The foxes are guarding the hen house. And the 'stuck on stupid' Obamabots are blaming the wrong person/people, as usual.

Hey Republicans, if your business owner can cut your job because they receive an increase in taxes, then he or she isn't doing enough business to have you there in the first place. Are you telling me that your boss just keeps you around because he/she thinks that paying you for work that they don't need you for is just a nice thing to do? This is nothing but a misguided scare tactic. Your boss has you there because there's enough business that he/she needs you there and they're going to keep you there if business stays the same whether there's a tax cut or not. And, most likely, under Obama's plan, they'll end up hiring even more people because their business will increase because their customers have more money. This isn't about what's "fair", which is higly subjective anyway (I think it's "fair" for people who make more to pay more in taxes, but I don't think it's fair for anyone to not pay *any* taxes), this is about what's best for the economy.

"I am passionate about my country's future. You may not know this if you went to school in America in the past 30 years but a lot of people DIED for this country. "
THAT's part of your "intelligent rebuttal"??? Seems more like the blather of yet another condescending fool and one who doesn't know that people have died for this country in not only the last 30 years but in the last few days. Hey, READ NEWSPAPER - We're at WAR RIGHT NOW for crying out loud!!! You can't possibly have family serving to be so ignorant but some of us do and FYI we're not all brainwashed single issue anti-tax fanatics that would divide our nation on such an issue So quit the pandering to the right fear machine and show some damned respect for our fallen heroes. And should you ever really have as your biggest worry what tax bracket you're in then god bless ya cause you made it to the elite 5% most tax payers won't.

Those who think the rich are guilty of so much hard work will give up your tax break for themwhile you toil for them.

The rest of us know a manipulated marketwhen we see one.

If you're angry about the economy, look at the people who benefitted the most, those who made billions while you played it safe and fair and made little or nothing. If you think you're short-changed at work, look at the people who benefit from that.

They're talking you out of YOUR tax cut,now that it's YOU who finally gets one.

Keep more for your effort instead of worrying too much about plenty-wealthy people who've been living off the money-making wonder that is the American working class for longer than you've been alive.

Why?

You say you're not worth it? Why not?

Because the executives who run you say so. Because you only wish you had the guts to go in and demand fair pay for your hard day's work. That's why.

You're afraid to admit you're being ripped off, that the class you aspire to takes advantage of you and never intends to acknowledge that they're rich only because you're not.

Spending is down because credit is drying up. We were living off credit because they don't pay you enough for school clothes.

You're worried about the people who manipulated the markets and paid you beans while they did it?

Have some pride. Tell them to go trickle on each other and pay you what you're worth.

You earned it.

You deserve it.

And they're the ones who manipulated the markets and crashed our economy anyway.

Well since some of you, and you know who you are, can't understand how small businesses can grow by making a profit. And utilizing legitimate tax breaks let me give you an example that maybe even a pin-head might understand. I will explain from an example i know a thing or two about.
Example: If an ex-truck driver takes out a loan* to purchase a truck. And hires a husband and wife to drive it for him. A couple can earn a nice 6 digit figure yearly income (and with some companies can option to buy the truck eventually and go independent to make more money). The owner makes their share too. but the owner must pay fuel* and fuel tax^ and upkeep* and payments* (all tax deductable*) as well as vehicle depreciation*. Now from a portion of the owner's profits he buys another truck* & hires another team (two more people employed. and now the owner needs to hire a dispatcher to get loads and give then to the drivers 9another person hired. Then he buys another truck and another team hired. then he needs to hire a mechanic to fix trucks, another person hired. But if every time the owner makes a little more to expand his fleet, he gets robbed by the goverment in unfair taxes to re-distribute the wealth... guess what? One less truck and at least 2 jobs orv more that never get created. Now if you can follow me Pin-Heads... profit with reasonable taxes means capitalism ( J-O-B-S ). Raise taxes, re-distribute the wealth... Socialism and a welfare state. No economic growth! Now the bottom line here for the mentally challenged... Capitalism...GOOD1 Socialism...BAAAD!

Well since some of you, and you know who you are, can't understand how small businesses can grow by making a profit. And utilizing legitimate tax breaks let me give you an example that maybe even a pin-head might understand. I will explain from an example i know a thing or two about.
Example: If an ex-truck driver takes out a loan* to purchase a truck. And hires a husband and wife to drive it for him. A couple can earn a nice 6 digit figure yearly income (and with some companies can option to buy the truck eventually and go independent to make more money). The owner makes their share too. but the owner must pay fuel* and fuel tax^ and upkeep* and payments* (all tax deductable*) as well as vehicle depreciation*. Now from a portion of the owner's profits he buys another truck* & hires another team (two more people employed. and now the owner needs to hire a dispatcher to get loads and give then to the drivers 9another person hired. Then he buys another truck and another team hired. then he needs to hire a mechanic to fix trucks, another person hired. But if every time the owner makes a little more to expand his fleet, he gets robbed by the goverment in unfair taxes to re-distribute the wealth... guess what? One less truck and at least 2 jobs orv more that never get created. Now if you can follow me Pin-Heads... profit with reasonable taxes means capitalism ( J-O-B-S ). Raise taxes, re-distribute the wealth... Socialism and a welfare state. No economic growth! Now the bottom line here for the mentally challenged... Capitalism...GOOD1 Socialism...BAAAD!

Hey, Army Brat, it so happens I DO have family serving. Don't talk to me about condescension you gutless tick. Yes, that is my rebuttal and I'm proud of it. You call your post to me a rebuttal? Like I don't know we are in a war? People are dying? Well duh. They've been dying for this country for over 230 years. I don't want it to be in vain because some hot shot smooth talking socialist wants to change it you nimrod. Keep talking, keep showing us how small minded you left wing liberals really are. It only serves to show us who and what you are. What would your small little mind ever know about all the issues that I'm concerned about? Typical liberal moron thinks they know what someone thinks. My post must have really bugged you brat.

Hey Republicans, I just heard on the news that sales are down big time for retailers, and they expect things to get worse. Why don't you just cut their taxes so they can hire more people even though they don't have any business because their customers don't have any money, meaning that their going to pay people just to sit around out of the goodness of their heart, because there's nothing to do because they're not doing any business? That sounds like a winning solution!

"profit with reasonable taxes means capitalism"---Finally, we agree! The part you forgot to mention in your example is that the only reason you were able to expand is because customer demand called for that expansion. That is my point. I never said that increased profits doesn't allow a company to expand, I said that increased profits does not in itself create jobs, because it doesn't. If you didn't have anything for those other drivers to do, you wouldn't hire them, no matter how much money you were making. And your having something for them to do, depends on the level of demand from your customers. If it's profitable to do so, you meet the demand. It's that simple. And yes there is such a thing as over taxing people, so there's no argument there. It's just that now the pendulum has swung too far to the right. Taxes we're cut too much under Bush and all that Obama is going to do is restore the tax code to basically what it was during the Clinton era.

And you put yourself into the category of "mentally challenged" when you make statements like "Raise taxes, re-distribute the wealth... Socialism and a welfare state." How does that make sense? Taxes have fluctuated (been raised and lowered) throughout the years, at no point have we had "socialism" or been a "welfare state".

Scooter, got to thank you for posting. Maybe some of these Obama followers can read and will get educated from your post on tax breaks and small business, but I'm sure it's over their heads. Maybe you could school them on the word JOBS, you know, the word Joe Biden thinks has 3 letters. LOL

No, we could not possibly diagree more! The point you completely miss and /or avoid completely is.
If a company grows, hires more people, the goverment will get taxes to function, even at the current rate, a reasonable level. But, if you say well it's OK to make $200,000 dollars a year, we'll only tax you the old % rate scale. But if you become more sucessful and make over $250,000...Uh, Oh! now we have to punish you by increase your tax % rate by one third more. Why? well you want to take a larger percentage of my profits and feed it off to Leftist Radical organizations like ACORN because you say well it will better for everybody (funding more radical socialism into America). But I say if I stay at the old % rate, the goverment will still get more money because I can expand, and I'll have enought to hire more employees, creating jobs. because I think that is better for everyone. Bottom line is, Barack Obama believes he knows better how to use peoples money than they do themselves. you see Socialists always believe that, you don't know what's good for you. You need big goverment telling you what's good for you. And that is, taking hard working people's money earned by their sweat and blood, and creating a sub-class of people dependant (enslaved by) upon big goverment handing them out a check to do nothing or worse sabotage America democracy with radicalism e.g. ACORN. Remember? What was the first thing the democrats wanted to do with the first returns of the bailout money... $200 million to ACORN! luckily Bernacke and McCain fought that blatant provision out! If the democrats were so concerned about balancing the budget and what's good for America, they would have made sure 100% of the returns would go back to the treasury ASAP. But then again, you see their agenda is how to force Socialism into America ASAP!
Please don't insult me by saying we agree... there is no middle ground between democracy and socialism! You see it is like JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you (socialism)... ask what you can do for your country (democracy)!"

No, sorry to say trying to change a tax and spend liberal into and independent or conservative, would be like trying to convert a jackass into an elephant. It only annoys the jackass and wastes your time. You see democrat liberals basically break down into two catagories... 1. Those in power who want to keep their power by ripping off those who work and earn and save, then give it to the lazy to keep them dependent on them in return for votes. 2. Then you have the lazy, the criminal elements, the illegal immigrants, etc. that want to depend on someone else to carry their weight for them. And are happy to vote for them, perpetrate fraud to sabotage fair elections to maintain the status quo.

"don't want it to be in vain because some hot shot smooth talking socialist wants to change it you nimrod."
Socialists? You'd have to be severely retarded to miss that it was and is supposed conservative GOP multiple deferment war-hawks that let bin Laden get away(ask Dalton Fury), who got us into Iraq on hyped false premises and a campaign of fear, who thought it would pay for itself, and perhaps worse yet who then mismanaged borders & efforts there into a total cluster %@#$ that has cost thousands of military and uncountable civilian lives and bankrupt our defense capability if not our country. No, I don't want my family members or anyone else's coming home in box because the smooth talking *****s you vote for and deflect blame from squander their lives & limbs on nation building as a mission from god & declaring 'job done' before it's even begun and while handing out no bid contract candy to war profiteering cronies (Like McCain's campaign financiers (Harry Sargeant III)) while our soldiers go years without necessary body and vehicle armor. So you want to blame all that on the democratic party? Go ahead if that delusion makes you feel better but don't mind the rest of us getting this recent history right. It was Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bremer, Rice, and sadly Powell who had no good intelligence in every sense of the word and had no security plan for Iraq before or after 'mission accomplished' and the costs in lives and in US taxpayer dollars is something none those leaders get enough malfeasance credit for. 2 of my 1st cousins (career Army & Marine respectively) are looking at the hell of a 4th tour starting next year when they should be retired to getting their overdue educations they were promised. Their loyalty is to the kids under their command. And all this for what? You decide BUT should your memory be cloudy here's an example of how Dems like Biden were trying to force accountability while the GOPers in charge were blowing it and oddly to this day shirk the blame on to others with the help of fools like you. This should be sobering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uFjr0Vr1ZY&feature=related
Contrast that to McCain saying bringing the troops home is "not too important"...well thank you Senator McCain for your service but perhaps it's retirement time for you if you think our troops and how they're used mere assets to commit endlessly. Where is the Y2K McCain? We miss him.

You know since you brought this mule outta the barn, let's hitch to the plow and see if it'll gee and haw. IRAQ warhawks? bad war?
Ok for the record, my viewpoint.
It's war that was at first atleast mismanaged and was put before a vote of congress based on info that turned out false. That being said, should we have had oubts that Saddam was telling the truth about WMD's? Let's see... he had them before, he used them before on Iran, the ****es and the Kurds. So at least he was suspect. Did we find any? Nope. Now let's examine something Senator obama said in the debates. He said that if genocide of a people is being done in a country, we (the U.S.) had a moral obligation to use military force to stop it. like in Bosnia.
(so watch out Darfur Obama wants to be commander-in-chief). But by Obama's words since genocide was being perpetrated by Saddam against Kurds and the ****tes, we were justified in kicking his ass good. Now that being said, Obama thinks if the Pakistanis down bring us Osama, we need to go into Pakistan unilaterally and get him. Hmmm! Warhawk? Hmmm!
Now Obama and biden have both mouthed off about our troops mudering civilians recently and the liberals say our troops are dying in vain in a war that can't be won? Well I can speak for all vets...I am one...Granada (VFW). but I would watch using such allegations around vets if I were a liberal, lest they find themselves eating a knuckle sandwich. So many of our warriors die covering a fellow warrior life in battle. You tell that surviving vet, his buddy died in vain, you might get your ass beat like a rented mule. But what will the liberals say if Obama wants to go into Dafur (like Clinton into Somalia)... will that war be justified? Or if we can't get back out in 6 months, should we turn tail and run from that one too? Will they condone an Obama invasion of Pakistan? Hmmm! Will Michael Moore, Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon shame Obama or give their approval because a liberal president started it? Hmmm!
My guess is they will be two-faced partisans.

The bottom line scooter is that you are simply wrong, short-sighted, and you don't at all understand macro-Economics. And you really damage your credibility when you go off track and start referring to made up boogeymen like ACORN, which has absolutely nothing to do with any of this, to support your baseless argument. You're just spouting off right-wing nonsense, on what do you base your assertion that the current rate is "reasonable"? And stop looking at things in such simpleton terms, you can make as much money as you want, and paying higher taxes is not "punishment", and that's the not the intention nor the effect, of doing so. You sound just like Dick Cheney. Guess what? Everything you said was tried during the Bush years, and it lead to job loss and decreased revenue for the government (which leads to inflation, a great increase in the national debt, and the devaluing of the dollar). Those are facts (however inconvenient they may be to your extremist right-wing views--you are far from "reasonable"). Everything you've said has been PROVEN to not be true. Let me repeat (a la Joe Biden), everything you've said has been PROVEN to not be true. Recognizing that and changing course would be the "reasonable" thing to do.

I'm afraid Obama set off the S-bomb all by himself. Damn near blew himself up too.
I must say I really resent the insults to Sarah Palin. Those who worry about her spelling SHOULD be worried about Obama's SAT scores, because he refuses to release them. And he won't release his college records - Occidental, Columbia or Harvard. Ditto his client list from law firm, his Illinois State Senate records, his selective service registration, his baptismal record, his medical records, etc. We won't even talk about his birth certificate; we'll leave that to the Federal District Court in Eastern PA.

Only self-loathing idiots who make less than 250,000 will vote for McCain. You broke b*stards who support Republicans who actually ARE taking your wealth and "spreading it around" to people who have a lot more money than you, all based on an unlikely pipe dream that one day you'll have as much money as them (HIGHLY unlikely), all suffer from battered spouse syndrome" Democrats: "Hey, stop hitting her", Non-Rich people who support Republicans: "Why are you talking to him like that?"

"Dems like Biden trying to force accountability on GOPers"? Right. Yeah liberals are all about accountability. You people keep talking. You are clueless just like your politicians. A bunch of mindless morons. What does Obama being a dyed in the wool socialist have to do with Bin Laden and the handling of the war in Iraq? You people are clearly nuts. Get a grip, you are truly losing it. LOL

Mike Huckabee did use the term "socialist" to describe Obama's economic policies of wealth redistribution this morning.

Granted, Bush has proven to be the biggest spender and give-away-er of public U.S. money in American history. Between him and the GOP leadership in the House and Senate the past eight years, the damage has been stupendous.

But, we don't fix that by doing more of the same with Obama/Pelosi/Reid. (Who apparently may lose his own election.)

Hi Scooter. Here's my worry. It's that kind of justification of being a threat but an unknown one that could get us into a lot of wars we shouldn't. Whats next Iran? Korea? How about Russia? Good Jesus I hope not. They all got WMD or might so we have to be smart and strong at the same time. Kepp out power dry for the fights that matter. As a Vet HD'd Army in 72 and while being handy for an old fart I'm not ready to start handing out knuckle sandwiches for the families of other vets or active duty who are worried about where and why their loved ones are being deployed. I don't want my grandkids to have to deal with a draft likr I did if we continue over extending our reach and i don't want them to suffer the horrors of such an experience as i still do. I dont think we went to Iraq to save anyone there from Saddam so lets take that off the smart guess table and if you call me a liberal you might be the one getting a pop in the face. We should have been looking harder for BinLaden who attacked us on 9/11. We can't confuse our or anyones military service to country with the decisions made by politicans to send us there often without the right plan to succed. We grunts do what were told under chain of cmd and we do the best we can and I think my fellow countrymen care about us a lot more than some of these politicans we've had in office. Just look at Walter Reed Hostipal - it's a gd shame. Im voting Obamma & Biden not becuase or Iraq specifically but becuase Im a fiscal conservative and unhappy with everything done in the last 8 years and how they hide it and shift blame and whos better off because of it. we arent better off and we deserve better and so does this great country. just wanted to get my 2 cents in You guys can go back to your screaming and name calling at each other now.

Joe the Plumber is a PLOY just like SARAH STUPID. Most Republicans are under educated; therefore, they do not know when someone is running a con on them. They believe what they are told. Did anyone were wonder how Joe got to talk with both Obama and McSame? Joe is a PLOY. No more and no less.

Obama folks want the dogs called off as Obama is finally being revealed as a radical left wing socialist with ties to racists (Farakan and Wright) and domestic terrorists - Mr. and Mrs. Ayers.
Obama is a fraud and a fake with zero experience and accomplishments and is not qualified to be the leader of US.
Change will come with Obama, but it will only be what is left in your pocket.
Also, it is disgusting to read the posts by the Obamamaniacs who continually play the race card. This elecetion has nothing to do with race, but rather competence.

I make $252,000 per year. A friend of mine makes $245,000 per year. Will I be paying a lot more taxes if Obama is president than my friend?
Posted By: Bob | October 17, 2008 at 04:52 PM
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Bob, do you realize that the US is a progressive tax system. You would only get an increase on taxes of the difference between 250 and 252, thus you would pay a little extra on $2000. If you cant give up a few hundred bux off that 2000, you are living way too close to the limit and should consider scaling back your living habits.

I make $252,000 per year. A friend of mine makes $245,000 per year. Will I be paying a lot more taxes if Obama is president than my friend?
Posted By: Bob | October 17, 2008 at 04:52 PM
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Bob, do you realize that the US is a progressive tax system. You would only get an increase on taxes of the difference between 250 and 252, thus you would pay a little extra on $2000. If you cant give up a few hundred bux off that 2000, you are living way too close to the limit and should consider scaling back your living habits.

Harold you are right!! The Obamabots are crying race over every truth revealed about Prince Barry, yet clearly 95% or more of blacks are voting for him. I'm not a Howard Stern fan but Howard sent out a guy on the street in Harlem to ask blacks who they were voting for. Astonishingly, they were voting for Obama because get this, he's against abortion, against embryonic stem cell research, for victory in Iraq and Sarah Palin as his VP! The guy on the street purposefully asked them about McCain policies and asked if they liked Palin as Obama's VP. It's clear they want McCain policies including his VP but will vote for Obama! So revealing. It's hysterical. You have to hear this. I think it's pretty clear who the racists are. Keep it coming 'bots.

Sorry Jonathan this a comment on the comments.
Why are the Dem's attacking Joe for asking a question?
Obama answerd it with the classic redistribution of wealth statement.
Joe is just a working guy in the midist of recovering from a devorice and it is none of our business.
Stick to the people running for Office.

Joe was a obvious joke. The guy makes 40k, owes back taxes, admitted that he would get a tax break under Obama's plan, and said he was contacted by the McCain Campaign prior to the debate.
But further more. He would pay only on the increase from 250 to 280, on the longshot he actually is able to purchase the company.
Also, unless you are making alot of money right now, your wealth was redistributed to the the richest few. So they may not have said they redistributed wealth, they did, to themselves.
So why arent you up in arms about how they took your money and redistributed it to the top??

My friends if some of you are laughing you must have a lot more money hid under your mattress than I do. There nothing funny about this mess.

My friends this hard working and tired fiscal conservative (at one time a Goldwater campaigner) just watched a deregulated market leverage it's way into bankruptcy. What did you see? The economy wasnt sound despite the spin. Many of us have lost all of our gains made the last decade or more and I suppose if you have the time to ride this out and recover you're probably ok but some of us don't It begs the question and the analysis of on who's watch has this and the monster deficit reached such a tipping point. I see some of the same fleecing practices and misinformation to blame that we saw during the Keating Five scandals because my memory isn't short or forgiving. How can anyone miss it? I also see the past fiscal conservative John McCain ok with federalizing not only banks but individuals mortgages that we tax payers will cover the difference on. And Palin's tax the oil company welfare state doesn't impress me either. If that's not socialist by this mob's standards I don't know what is.
Don't know about the other disenfranchised folks out there but as of right now I see this pushing out my retirement to 10+ years from now rather than 5. Given my inoperable lower back problems it won't be fun for me but I'll hang in there because I have little choice. My friends It may be too late but I'm ready to try a change as from this point forward as now I've been shoved into the lower middle class, likely never to again worry about paying in a higher tax bracket, by those who are finger pointing and many who we're now bailing out. We're not spending $1TB on welfare moms but welfare fat cats and executives - there's the socialism practiced by our government.

So how is it that an even more socialistic politician, the most liberal ever, by the way, i.e. Obama, going to help out the "mess we are in" with his plan to tax an additional 1 trillion for his welfare policies? (that's a low estimate I'm sure). We've already bent over for 850 billion that Obama and his dem buds did to us with their banking blackmail scam. I don't know what you people are thinking. We may be progressively socialist, but I want to take the slower route if you don't mind. Have any of you out there been listening to the economists that are saying BHO's plan is disastrous? What'cha gonna do when the 'big business/corporate welfare' companies leave the country to avoid outrageous taxes? (They can afford to leave, I can't) Who's gonna pay for Barry's folly then? Gonna get jobs for all the unemployed they leave behind? By the way jobs is a 4 letter word for you Biden fans, I know Joe said it's a 3 letter word, but I checked, it's a 4 letter word alright. lol Fiscal conservatives vote for Obama?, you're NOT a fiscal conservative. I'm reading this stuff and I'm still laughing.

"We've already bent over for 850 billion that Obama and his dem buds did to us with their banking blackmail scam."

Wow, so much misinformation so little interest in the truth in these web forums.

The bending over wasn't for anything "Obama and his dem buds did to us" it was for what a deregulated market did in collecting and leveraging bad loans to the HILT in a massive pyramid scheme. Banks and investing firms were totally gaming the system for gains on money turnover and playing ultra high risk hands. Do you understand credit default swap impacts compared any impact of original loans dwarfed by these side bets? As for the original loans themselves, again dwarfed by Wall St. leverage of them, anyone too quick to blame low incomers (thus I assume the reference to Obama) missed just as high a default rate for middle to upper middle incomer mortgages than the poor. That's right - the well off buying $1M to $2M homes are defaulting at yet an even greater rate of failure over the last year. This shouldn't be an issue dividing us who didn't make out lake Wall St management did

While the fixes to this disaster being attempted are an anything but certain (or even known to be the right thing to do) what caused the crisis IS understood and is something any layperson should be able to understand if they try to.

This straightforward review should make it simple for even the most brainwashed - it's in Joe6Pack friendly format (TV). Watch it and if there's anything you disagree with or want to debate THEN sure lets have at it afterward. I'm up for a genuine debate - but not so interested in these verbal brawls & insults.
Cheers.
http://xrl.us/oubr2 (News 60-Minutes)

So the dems forcing Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae into blackmailing banks into giving subprime loans to unqualified people doesn't really qualify them as a huge part of the bailout? Right. Bend over folks. The bs rolls on.

To Joe who is really sam from Dennis who is really mad. Palin can't call Obama the real n word because she doesn't know if he is. On the other hand, she can't call him whitey either because we don't know if he really is. As a matter fact he is so wet behind the ears he is still figuring it out himself. He is smart though, smart enough to know he will be whatever it takes to win this election. Jeremiah Wright knows who he is and has indicated that when Obama gets in the White House he will visit him there. He said that just before Obama threw him under the bus. Of course, Wright knows Obama and knows he will be back on the bus after Obama wins and no longer has to "disown" him. I can't understand why the white liberals can't figure this out. Maybe they don't want their little fairy tale to be tainted. By the way Joe or Sam or whoever you are. I am not a racist, I care more about the color of a man's mind then the color of his skin. after all the blacks knows there are both black and white N----grs. That has more to do with a man's attitude than color. Jesse Jackson knows, with the mike on and him thinking it was off he stated in reference to Obama that he would like to cut his b---lls off. I should use the real word instead of all these dashes but that is not politically acceptable, so don't bash Palin for showing a little etiquette. So put that in your sexist pipe and smoke it. Have a nice day.

McCain and his campaign since the change in the midst of the primaries are very suspect. Everyone is wondering what happened to John McCain? He is not the same John McCain! Now if it was the democrats saying that, the thought could be suspect. But it isn't or initially wasn't the democrats! Republicans were turning from John McCain in large numbers, Some even becoming Independents in the process. The change seems to have come around that time of his need for cash. I believe it was at this time that someone offered John McCain the money and help he needed to accomplish his goal of winning the nomination and a greater chance of winning the final prize of becoming the President. I believe John McCain sold his soul and since that day has lost all control over both his campaign and the choices he can make, both as the nominee and as President if he does in fact achieve that position in this election!
There is one character in this that has surfaced which might explain this change we have seen. That Person is one we have all seen mixed in a very bad light in the White house. This person is involved in someway with both John McCain and Sarah Palin. He was also involved in causing Nixon to resign. That Person is Gordon Liddy. Sarah Palin tried to appoint Liddy to a position in Alaska until another republican denied it, noting Liddy's involvement in Watergate. Liddy is good friends with McCain and both have made the claim, although McCain recently claimed on David Letterman not to know Liddy, then after the break McCain claimed to know him in passing. Liddy held a fund raiser for McCain in his house! McCain claimed that Liddy was rehabilitated. Liddy is a felon not allowed to have weapons registered in his name or any weapon in his possesion! Yet Liddy has had his wife register many guns in his wifes name. Liddy has bragged about using pictures of Bill and Hillary Clinton as target practice! Liddy has told people on his radio show, To stop the ATF from disarming you, shoot them in the face no armor in the face! Liddy admitted to wanting to blow up buildings and bridges. Liddy admitted to either wanting or trying to kill a journalist and politicians. Liddy has said that he will kill anyone who gets in his way! Liddy is or could be considered to be a militia! Who else has strong ties to Militia? Sarah Palin got her start in politics from the guy who started the AIP in Alaska. The primary goal of the AIP is to get Alaska removed as a state from the USA! This same man still has an open door in Sarah Palin's govenors office. Todd Palin had been a member of the AIP until just the end of last year! The AIP wants the republicans who cause them trouble gone from politics and I don't think they will stop at Alaskan politics. It all fits into a nice little picture of corruption at its finest! It fits that McCain's campaign has kept Palin away from the media, that they have been tricked into not checking Palin out! What else is there? We need these questions answered! What about McCain and why did he lie about Liddy? What is he hiding? In 2007, McCain went on Liddy?s radio show and told him:
I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family....It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great.
By contrast, Obama has never said that he?s "proud" of Bill Ayers
Now Obama answered the Ayers question! I demand to know the answer to Liddy and his connection to both McCain and Palin.