So I ended up doing well this time around, winning a little more than a $1000 playing WT's progression but had to implement the 4-loss quit point NUMEROUS TIMES before I had my very hot streak roughly 5 shoes later. Some interesting & surprising(!!) stats:

Won 9 Times in a row TWICE: (I managed to do that with the same dealer, almost right after it happened the first time)

Most Consecutive Hands Won: ~12+(!!!)

Wow, was this nice. I felt like I just could not lose!! By the time this neverending streak ended I had netted ~$1300 profit after previously being down almost $400 from my buy-in of $1000. It was really nice finally getting rewarded for playing flawless Basic Strategy all the time. I know it was at least 12 in a row because the older black grump beside me apparently got tired of my seemingly endless streak and said, "Man, you' be hole-din up da game, man!" :lol: :lol: HAHAHA poor guy. I felt sorry for him as I was contemplating the most marginal Mag7 hand (12v4) and heard his childish whining and complaining as I was scanning the board since he didn't have a clue in the world what I was doing!

The only bad thing about being up $1000 is that I was sort of unsure of what to do the rest of the night, it was only 2:30 am and I was already up over $1000 in 3 hrs. so do I go for even MORE (after already doubling my entire bankroll) or do I cut back to a $10 table & play a much more conservative progression in order to pretty much solidify my winnings?? I ended up chillin out the rest of the night, woke up, had breakfast and played at the $10 level to have a better chance at solidifying my substantial profit after losing almost half of my $1000 winnings.

Anyway, all in all a great trip but I got a few questions for you WT progression players out there (and to WT himself but him and Renzey seem to have disappeared from this board?!?!):

- How much profit must you make or how many consecutive hands must you win in a row to "step up" to a higher betting denomination?

i.e. I won 9 hands in a row twice & 12 hands as well, netting really nice profits, but what is the MOST IDEAL time to up my bets to a higher level, to hopefully generate even GREATER profits? I was thinking of raising the top max bet higher but by what amount is the question.

- As I mentioned above that I had lost almost half of my buy-in of $1000 (had ~$600 left) before hitting those spectacular streaks, when is the best time I should quit play for a particular session with a buy-in of $1000, to either wait for a better shoe from the shoes I lost 4-in-a-row or cool down from large streaks?

- This had to be one of the few times I've had such nice, LONG streaks. I realize that the odds of winning/losing 10 in a row is about 1 in 10,000 hands so since I won 9 in a row twice and at least 12 in a row another (all with same dealer, might I add), should I not expect to win 9+ in a row until a VERY LONG TIME (~50000 hands)?

- Finally, if you were in my shoes and began play at 11:20 pm staying the night over and by ~2:30 am you were already up $1300 after BUYING IN for your complete bankroll of $1000, what would you do?Because after doubling what you brought in 3 hours, what's one to do? Keep playing and risk part or all $1000 profit you just made? Because you know those LONG winning streaks wont come for a long while!!! So should you just call it a night and enjoy doubling your money or back down to a lower denomination and play a more conservative progression? Again, what would you do?

ALL HELPFUL FEEDBACK WELCOMED!!!! QUESTIONS WILL BE HAPPILY ANSWERED!!!!

How come you don't have an"OTHER" position in your poll? I don't thinkI would do any of the suggested actions. I think this comment will make more sense if you ask yourself, why do I play and what is the nature ofwinning in blackjack?

How come you don't have an"OTHER" position in your poll? I don't thinkI would do any of the suggested actions. I think this comment will make more sense if you ask yourself, why do I play and what is the nature ofwinning in blackjack?

Ray, the options I had were ones I thought most players would choose. Just pick the one closest to what you would do.

I don't play progressions, but any time you double up, you dun good. Go buy a big cigar, and some Hennessey, and stink the joint up for a hour or two. ;o) Tip the dealer and the Henny waitress too. Quit at the $1000, like you did, but bring $2000 back NEXT time !

Bug, the only 'correct' answer is to do what you're comfortable doing.

I'm not gonna tell you what to do with your money. What I would do might be very different from what you would do.

If I were up $1,000, I'd go find a $25 table and play $25-100 per hand, most likely (I usually play $10 tables). If I lost it all back, so be it. OTOH, I might parlay that $1,000 win into 2-3,000 or more. That's why they call it gambling.

Bug, I would keep playing at the same stakes table. I never up my minimum bet, just because the $10 table (with $15, $20, @25 progression) is what I'm comfortable with.I tend to look at in increments of $100. In other words, I start out with $100 (with the idea there's another $100 in my pocket for disposal, so I guess you could say I start out with $200). Well, once i get $100 ahead, then the worst I'm going to do is break even. If get back down to even I'll quit (that's the idea anyway ). If I get $200 ahead, then the worst the session is going to go for me is $100 ahead. If I get to $300, then the worst it will turn out is $200 ahead, etc. etc, in $100 increments.You were at the $25 table, so I guess in my system what I would have done was keep playing the same stakes unless it got down to $750.Actually when I left $500 up the other night (see Crazy Night post) I was telling myuself I would quit if I got up $300. Well, I did, but it was a big bet that actually put me up like $320. So, I thnk whatthehell, I'll just play the extra $20. Next the you know that $320 up was $410, up ... on and on.It's the kind of night you live for.

Vote cast as I posted. 1000 has that nice round number appeal. When I play $25, I bring $500 to table, if I get to 800, I put in a stop loss at 500. If I reach 1000 in bank, the table stakes live or die. If it wins, I stay until this "buffer" taps out or I lose 3 in a row.

Of the original 500: lose half and leave. I'll try to find a $10 spot. A note here that if I know that I'm playing for a short period of time, I'll bring $300 to table. Getting quickly to $500 is see-ya. Breaking even or low win/loss is time limit and leave. I find this play valuable near end of shift.

There is no polite way to say this...."That is a terrible string" - It is no wonder the guy next to was saying you were "slowing down the game" - you were!

- I'm surprised they even let you bet the $37.50 and the $62.50. That just isn't done at a $25 table.

- "Rainbow" bets are bad for everyone; you, other players, the dealer, because they really interrupt the flow of the game.....In your case, if that casino doesn't use a 2.50 chip you were betting four different levels. Two color bets are o.k., but either three or four levels slow down the payoffs too much.

- Check me on this, but I believe Walter recommends a 25-35-45-55 for his method with a $25 unit.

- Personally, if I am using WT for cover, I use a 30-45-60-75 string for the $25 unit.

That said, congrats on a nice win.....about 13 units/hr for three hours is great.

Bug: I've had many sessions where I've surpassed the $1,000 win amount... I usually jump to a $50 min. bet, and often lose back the profits, BUT on several occasions I've had profits in excess of $8,000 from a four hour session. It's these rare but large wins which make up for the losing sessions. But what it really comes down to is your "greed" level... mine happens to be quite high! The smart move is to press up the progression, but back off to the original initial bet when the tide turns. And it always make you feel good if you quit play with at least SOME of the casino's money.

Grifter, I dont see why one couldn't bet at their leisure, no matter how many different types of bet denominations they are employing. Actually, the most I was ever using was 3 different types: green, red, and pink chips, but never anything more than that. Furthermore, how could that delay the game?! They just pay you your pink and red chips in addition! For someone to complain about me playing that particular way, which is an EXACT 1-1.5-2-2.5 WT progression btw (not 25-35-45, etc) is ludicrous. I think it's just like saying "you cant bet any pinks at a $100 table"! <-- And why not? It's your money isn't it? So we should be able to bet whatever type of denomination we please. I've even seen much more severe betting patterns then mine, with players betting all sorts of $1 chips, pink $2.50 and green chips too... furthermore, how could my betting style I employed be "terrible" if it's following <b>PRECISELY to a T his 1-1.5-2-2.5 progression at a $25 table? FYI 25-35-45-55 is NOT 1-1.5-2-2.5 and is not good because you are not taking FULL ADVANTAGE of the winstreaks that occur in blackjack as you are minimizing your incremental halfbet every time.

I understand WT mentions 25-35-45 incrementation, but however he says to do this only because "most casinos dont offer $2.50 chips" but for ones that do, why change his betting progression at all? He certainly doesn't recommend playing 25-35-45 to "not delay the game" one bit in his entire book. Especially for the night I was having, I was completely rewarded for having every bit of that .5 out on every bet and was glad my max bet didn't just tap out $8 below the actual max bet his proportion clearly calls for.

Finally, if you only saw this black man's demeanor throughout the whole night, only finding things to complain about just because his sore ass was LOSING so badly, you too would understand that he was just finding something to complain about, much like what he did. I'm glad he lost, cuz he thought he knew it all but kept on losing and running his nonstop mouth, worse than the MicroMachine man back in the days about 10 yrs. ago, hahahaha.

Thanks for the feedback though, I'll be going back Sunday night again hopefully I can get some nice FAST winstreaks once again to cap some nice cash again! BTW, Grifter could you answer my questions I had at the bottom of my original post as well as comment on the massive winstreaks and when you think I'll ever win that many in a row again? How in the world did I win 9 in a row twice and at least 12 another time all with the SAME dealer?!?!?! Have you ever had this much of a winstreak? What's the most you've won?

There is no polite way to say this...."That is a terrible string" - It is no wonder the guy next to was saying you were "slowing down the game" - you were!

- I'm surprised they even let you bet the $37.50 and the $62.50. That just isn't done at a $25 table.

- "Rainbow" bets are bad for everyone; you, other players, the dealer, because they really interrupt the flow of the game.....In your case, if that casino doesn't use a 2.50 chip you were betting four different levels. Two color bets are o.k., but either three or four levels slow down the payoffs too much.

- Check me on this, but I believe Walter recommends a 25-35-45-55 for his method with a $25 unit.

I was thinking that, too -- and I wasn't even considering how it slowed down (and irritated) the rest of the table. I just wouldn't want to spend half my night counting out chips. You do see a lot of "rainbow" betting at the $10 tables, too, but I don't think it's progression betting, just shoving chips out.

Nice streaks, Bug. I played Friday morning using a similar progression only to get $200 behind. Never was able to recover. What time of day did the 9 and 12 streaks occur? How many players at your table?

Bughouse  I will make a one pass response, but I am not going to get into a big discussion about this because ..All of the items I posted are simply common sense stuff that you are going to learn yourself when you get a couple more years playing under your belt.

 . I dont see why one couldn't bet at their leisure, no matter how many different types of bet denominations they are employing. ...Certainly a casino can set the minimum unit allowed at certain table, the same way they can set the minimum on the table itself. I personally have never seen a casino that allowed an increment of $0.50 at a $25.00 table (but I have never seen anyone even want or try to do it). Most casinos discourage anything but red, green, black, or purple on bet stack at the $25 level.

.It's your money isn't it? So we should be able to bet whatever type of denomination we please O.K., so where you play allows that and you bet your 25/37.5/50/62.5. Yes sir, you go right ahead and play that way, if ..- If you want to slow down the game.- If you want to constantly dink with your chips.- If you want to completely alienate the dealer.- If you want the dealer, pit boss and the other players to immediately label you as a newbie/rookie/ploppie (pick one) Personally, I want to be as anonymous as possible at the table.

Furthermore, how could that delay the game?! .I said slowing down the game, but essentially the same thing. The slow down for each hand is minimal, but it adds up quickly. The dealer has to pluck from three slots to pay you, and one or two for the other players ..AND then lets take a blackjack (every twenty hands) and compare my bet of $60.00 and yours of $62.50.

My $60:- Every decent $25 dealer instantly knows the BJ payoff on all $5 increments between $25 and $100 .It is just like you knowing basic strategy.- One look, he sees $60, knows its $90 payoff, plucks three green, three red, and pays you (I just got my chip tray out and tried it. Took me 3-4 seconds to spot and pay)- No brainer, no delay.

You $62.50:- Dealers do not instantly know these oddball payoffs. Why should they? Nobody bets that way (well almost nobody).- He sees a blackjack and a $62.50 bet, so he has to figure it out. He might/probably do it this way ..Uhhhh $50 pays $75, and pluck your three green .uhhhh $10 pays $15 and pluck your three red, .Lets see, $2.00 pays $3.00 and plucks your three white, and finally $0.50 pays $0.75 .oh shucky durn, this is a $25.00 table, I dont have quarters in my tray, I guess Ill have to round up, or is it round down??- And in the meantime the pit boss and the other players are mumbling under their breath and saying when did this yahoo fall off the turnip truck.

Get the picture???......Make life simple for yourself and everybody else.

I understand WT mentions 25-35-45 incrementation, but however he says to do this only because "most casinos dont offer $2.50 chips"......Huhh??? See page 167, and I quote, If you find yourself at a $25 minimum table, I recommend a $25 - $35 - $45 - $55 progression. ..Nothing there about $2.50 chips.

if it's following PRECISELY to a T his 1-1.5-2-2.5 progression at a $25 table? FYI 25-35-45-55 is NOT 1-1.5-2-2.5 and is not good because you are not taking FULL ADVANTAGE of the winstreaks that occur in blackjack as you are minimizing your incremental halfbet every time. ..I can tell you right now that if you figured the earnings ratio for the two strings there would not be one rch difference, but you are fixated on the precise numbers ..knowing that, why dont you just bet the string I posted earlier at the $25 table. If you had used that instead of yours, you would have made $810 in lieu of $675 on your twelve win streak . Again, make life easy on yourself and everybody else.

Have you ever had this much of a winstreak? What's the most you've won? .Bughouse, I dont have a clue what my longest win streak was over 30 years, but I have this one in my records because it was kind of unique .March of 1996, I was playing $25 tables at the Mirage. Came down from my room on the last day of a four day play and sat down .and won my first 17 straight hands (with two pushes somewhere in that streak). I hadnt even started to count (just getting my brain woke up) and was playing Dahl till I was ready Made $3,600 in about 15 minutes!

You got it, Ray......Those streaks are just "luck". Nobody should waste their time trying to figure out "when it should happen". The "jammie boys" and "math weenies" might try to tell you different, but.....It just don't work that way.

Just get up in the morning about 3:00, do the three s's while your coffee is brewing, and head down to the casino.....Maybe, just maybe, say to yourself "Sure be nice if I caught a nice win streak with a high count today"........and leave it at that. If it happens, it happens....If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Grifter, I respect your 30 years of knowledge, and straight advice, put forth in a clear manner. Just wanted you to know that voices like your's and Walter's are very much appreciated, and are building a large "real world" knowledge base for folks who aren't as experienced. (As a matter of fact I usually jot down notes from most of your posts). Please keep up the advice and opinion. Just a thanks.

John

(BTW, my wife's Rod Stewart show is next Saturday at Mohegan Sun, but I think we have two different agendas. She's memorizing songs, I'm memorizing BS plays) :lol:

Nice streaks, Bug. I played Friday morning using a similar progression only to get $200 behind. Never was able to recover. What time of day did the 9 and 12 streaks occur? How many players at your table?

The 9 and 12 winning streaks occured at about 1:20-2 am... that's the best approximation I can give you because I know for a fact by 2:20 am I was already cashing out my mad profits........ and the streaks didn't happen too long before that. There were 4-5 players at the table, I was in the middle, the black old fart was to my left, 2nd to 3rd base. I usually prefer to play in the middle as I get to see all the players' hands and can interact easily.

 O.K., so where you play allows that and you bet your 25/37.5/50/62.5. Yes sir, you go right ahead and play that way, if .. - If you want to slow down the game. - If you want to constantly dink with your chips. - If you want to completely alienate the dealer. - If you want the dealer, pit boss and the other players to immediately label you as a newbie/rookie/ploppie (pick one) Personally, I want to be as anonymous as possible at the table.

Slow down the game? Gimme a break. You're acting as if it takes HOURS to pay my bet. Just get 1 pink, 2 reds and greens, what's so slow about that?! Dink with my chips? First off I dont dink with my chips and even if I did what's the problem and how does doing that affect my play whatsoever? Makes absolutely no sense. Completely alienate the dealer?!?! THAT'S WHAT HE'S THERE FOR!!!!!!!!!! THAT'S HIS JOB! How in the world would I "completely alienate" the dealer if he is PAID to pay players and he is simply doing his job? No matter the denomination of the chips, he is PAID to pay us HOWEVER WE WANT TO BET so therefore you again make absolutely no sense. You are simply looking at it at a completely biased way towards the House. Why? Idano.

- If you want the dealer, pit boss and the other players to immediately label you as a newbie/rookie/ploppie (pick one) Personally, I want to be as anonymous as possible at the table.

Again, you make no sense! I again played this EXACT STYLE last night and NO ONE made even the slightest inclination that I'm a newbie/rookie/ploppie and furthermore see absolutely no reason why they would, just because of the way I bet. 90% of the time the players dont even notice that I'm betting 37.50 & 62.50 with 3 different types of bets!

You $62.50: - Dealers do not instantly know these oddball payoffs. Why should they? Nobody bets that way (well almost nobody). - He sees a blackjack and a $62.50 bet, so he has to figure it out. He might/probably do it this way ..Uhhhh $50 pays $75, and pluck your three green .uhhhh $10 pays $15 and pluck your three red, .Lets see, $2.00 pays $3.00 and plucks your three white, and finally $0.50 pays $0.75 .oh shucky durn, this is a $25.00 table, I dont have quarters in my tray, I guess Ill have to round up, or is it round down?? - And in the meantime the pit boss and the other players are mumbling under their breath and saying when did this yahoo fall off the turnip truck.

Get the picture???......Make life simple for yourself and everybody else.

Again, I've won my share of blackjack bets while betting $62.50 (at least 3 last night as a matter of fact) and no dealer has EVER made as big a deal as you are making it, just because THAT IS MY OPTION TO BET EXACTLY THE PROGRESSION AT A $25 TABLE. And no, life is simple enough, you just apparently are too SIMPLE-MINDED and always want to do things the easy way and "not give people trouble" when in actuality how f

Yeah, and if you'd care to open your eyes wider you'd note that the paragraph right below it reads: "Due to the less than 50% increase for winning bets caused by chip denominations for $5 and $25 initial bets, I recommend that these progressions not be employed UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY..... :roll: :roll:

I repeat "UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY".... now, if a casino has $2.50 chips would you classify that as "absolutely necessary" to deviate from the EXACT betting progression he clearly dictates?! Alright then.

Why Nickels? Why should I change his exact 1-1.5-2-2.5 progression since the casino has the chips REQUIRED for me to employ it perfectly? That's just like doubling 11 against an Ace with many more 10's than babies showing!

Bughousemaster  I specifically told you I was not going to get into a discussion about something so basic and trivial, that I would make a one pass response, and that I would point out some common sense issues .I did that, issue closed.

Bughousemaster  I specifically told you I was not going to get into a discussion about something so basic and trivial, that I would make a one pass response, and that I would point out some common sense issues .I did that, issue closed.

Grifter

That's fine, since your thick skull doesn't want to realize what I'm saying totally contradicts your completely flawed and 1st grade level reasoning. Furthermore, if you were going to make a "one pass response" than dont make it so lengthy in the first place, in your atrocious attempt to coerce an even lengthier reply by me which you were successful in doing.

Nickels - You are 100% correct of course, but obviously you are not going to convince Bughousemaster.

?! He just asked me to TRY a different betting progression, so why are you teling him he's 100% correct? Correct on what, his mere SUGGESTION? He was not agreeing nor disagreeing, just suggesting to try a different progression.

Ended up losing ~$250... not bad at all at the $25 table and I had 3 ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS SHOES where I had to quit play!!! Lucky I had a ministreak like last time which held me up pretty good.... plan on going on the 9th again, staying over this time!

Bug-What are you going to do when you play at a casino that does Not allow you to bet the odd 50 cents ? Many do not. You will not be able to bet $37.50, so what will you do ? Bet $37.00 or $38.00, But then you will not be following the "exact" 1-1.5-2- etc. Yes ,the dealers can figure out the BJ pay off on a bet of $37.50 or $62.50 or any other you can come up with. I just see it as a common courtesy not to make them Have to do it. Yes, the dealers are getting paid. So is the kid who is sweeping the floors at McDonalds, but it is a common courtesy to empty your own trash in the trash can and not throw it on the floor, just because they have someone hired to sweep the floors.[/url]

[quote="midnite"]but it is a common courtesy to empty your own trash in the trash can and not throw it on the floor, just because they have someone hired to sweep the floors.[quote]

EXCUSE ME?!?!??!?! HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLO?! I am GAMBLING in case you didn't realize and therefore should be able to put whatever type of denomination FREELY on the table without getting any sort of grief whatsoever. If a dealer gets pissed off and angry and all bent out of shape just because of the AMOUNT someone bets than they have bigger problems then that in their life.

Furthermore, if you and Grifter dont realize that I have nothing further to say.

Nickels, I'll consider your 25-35-50-65 increase since that is close enough, especially for casinos that dont offer $2.50 chips.

We all know that progressions aren't exactly rooted in mathematical fact. , but many of us like them anyway. I live with the notion (probably not based on statistical evidence, either) that they take advantage of the natural streakiness of the game, letting you ride out the losing streaks with minimum bets while a natural mechanism kicks in to up the bets when the table gets hot. I also know that progressions are terrible when you get into one of those nights where it's win-lose-win-lose-win-lose. I like them anyway. It gives me something to believe in other than the blind luck of the draw.That said, Bug, I would assume that the 1/1.5/2/2.5 progression arrived at those numbers partly out of convenience to the common starting bet of $10 (or any $10 increment). If you were to put a computer to it, I'm guessing you 'd probably come up with other optimal numbers -- maybe 1/1.43/1.89/2.42 or something silly like. So what it God's name is the harm in adjusting it a tad to your $25 starting bet so you don't have to spend half the night reaching into your pocket for quarters to build your precise stack.

Bughousemaster said - "I really wanted to use his 2-3-4-5-5-5 progression at a $25 table, but unfortunately the 25-37.50-50-62.50 would be too confusing after winning the first @ $25 to get a green chip, 2 red's then 1 pink for $37.50, which is 3x $12.50 if I wanted to use his system. Also, since most of the dealer's try to pay with the least amount of chips, this makes it even more harder on him. Do you see what I'm saying? Should I just round up to $40 or what? I want to be PRECISE!"

Michigan Dave said - "Bug- Play $30-$45-$60-$75, or in other words 3x of Walter Thomason's progression"

Michigan Dave- Hey Dave, to you ever get the feeling that if you walked on water across Lake Michigan, there would be one person that would say "Hey, look everbody Michigan Dave ...... Can't Swim" !!!!