Posted
by
Soulskillon Saturday March 12, 2011 @03:34PM
from the what-doesn't-kill-you-makes-you-late-for-work dept.

Hugh Pickens writes "According to experts on circadian rhythms, the hour shift in sleep schedule from Daylight Saving Time can have serious effects on some people's health, particularly in people with certain pre-existing health problems. One study found that men were more likely to commit suicide during the first few weeks of Daylight Saving Time (DST) than at any other time during the year, and another study showed that the number of serious heart attacks jumps 6% to 10% on the first three workdays after DST begins. Dr. Xiaoyong Yang, an assistant professor of comparative medicine and cellular and molecular physiology at Yale University, theorizes that shifts in biologic rhythms could trigger harmful inflammatory or metabolic changes at the cellular level, to which these individuals may be more susceptible."

As someone who suffers from SAD, depression, etc. I can attest to the fact that a strict sleep schedule is incredibly important to keeping me healthy and functional. DST rudely smashes all my carefully laid schedules and plans.

It may not seem like much, but even shifting things by a single hour and put me (and people like me) a very difficult spot. Light boxes and sunrise simulator alarm clocks help, but what helps the most is strict consistency in sleep/wake times. This is especially harmful to people wit

I'm not sure what you're saying. I do get up an hour earlier in the summer, I certainly could do so without changing my clocks (though that would seem like a silly and pointless exercise, since the everyone around me changes their clocks), and I'm not regulating anyone! Perhaps you mistook my practical suggestion for pro-DST advocacy?

I'm not sure what you're saying. I do get up an hour earlier in the summer, I certainly could do so without changing my clocks (though that would seem like a silly and pointless exercise, since the everyone around me changes their clocks), and I'm not regulating anyone! Perhaps you mistook my practical suggestion for pro-DST advocacy?

Yeah, and I suppose it would just be a "waaaah" issue if the guy had narcolepsy or something along those lines? Surely we can cure all our mental problems just my manning up, after all it's just in our head! Surely chemical differences in our brain can't make that much difference to the way our mind works? If they did, then everyone would be drinking caffeine and alcohol, eating sugary foods and taking drugs all the time to make themselves temporarily feel better about their shitty little lives! Oh, wait..

Yes, that's why I suggested getting up an hour earlier in winter rather than the otherwise-equivalent change of getting up an hour later in summer, which would make him late.

Frankly, DST should be abandoned entirely

But it hasn't been, and unless and until it is, this guy has to live with it. Are you suggesting that he should continue to risk his health and mental well-being just to try to prove your point? I gotta say, I'm not very comfortable with demanding that someone else martyr themselves for my cause, no matter how much I think they may a

The question I have is how much does DST have to do with it and how much is simply the time of year? It is possible that people are simply trying to stay awake longer than the available light. I have read elsewhere that being up after dark is not good for you, though like every other study I have to ask myself how much is this based in the factor being studied and how much is this simply a life-style factor?

This is a related problem. But unlike travel which can be mitigated by either avoiding it or traveling by car/train, DST is something that's imposed by the government and cannot easily be avoided if you're in an area that observes it. Few employers are going to let you come in late to avoid having your circadian rhythm disrupted.

This is a related problem. But unlike travel which can be mitigated by either avoiding it or traveling by car/train

How? If one hour is a problem, you'll have a problem crossing any timezone. And if you're travelling multiple time zones, it's not likely your boss will pay for days of travel each way either. To be honest this might be triggering on the statistics, but those people must be pretty fragile to begin with. It's like how they say the flu kills thousands each year - the weak and elderly that can't take it, but it's only the last straw and something would have did them in.

Try working on the border between Illinois and Indiana, not only is there a timezone changeover, Illinois uses DST while Indiana does not. If I'm not mistaken part of the year their clocks match, and part of the year they're three hours different.

>>Try working on the border between Illinois and Indiana, not only is there a timezone changeover, Illinois uses DST while Indiana does not. If I'm not mistaken part of the year their clocks match, and part of the year they're three hours different.

I do work in central Indiana, and it's really really annoying. Not only do they not use DST, but their time zone splits the state in half, so an airport 20 miles away might be an hour ahead or behind your time at the hotel.

I saw an editorial cartoon perhaps 30 years ago. In the cartoon, Richard Nixon is depicted sitting in a rocking chair saying "I need to make this blanket longer, so that we can stay warm in the winter. So I'll cut one foot of the blanket off at one end, and sew it onto the other end."
That's everything you need to know about Daylight Savings Time.

I stopped and looked at it one day. in NY the sun sets on Sept.1st at about 8:30pm. without daylight that means it sets at 7:30pm The northern states would literally lose the ability to do many things they can now simply because it will get dark out in August and September, instead of October.

Evening sports, afterwork hobbies, anything that one does after 5pm(when most people stop working) will lose time to do things like mow the yard afte

No wait.. what you seem to want is to stop work at 4pm instead of 5pm but you still want to call it 5pm? Then, you want to start work at 8am instead of 9am but you want to call it 9am? I think I'm getting this now.. so you want to have lunch at 12noon but call it 1pm!?

Of course, some people don't have friendly employers and require that the government mandate the hours that they work.. but it sounds like a pretty hackish solution..

Of course, some people don't have friendly employers and require that the government mandate the hours that they work.. but it sounds like a pretty hackish solution..

It's funny that people are opposed to the "government imposed" daylight savings time, but don't seem to mind the government imposed timezones them self. You would think that timezones would follow straight lines, but they don' t they follow the border of states. Darn government interfering with everything.

Personally, I think it's a good idea not having a bunch of kids standing in the dark waiting for a school bus during the winter. It's also nice to still have some light to get things done around the hou

The number of seconds since 1/1 1970 is, however, not arbitrary. Which makes it a whole lot more useful as a measure of actual time and for determining a particular point of time, than labels randomly calling a specific moment 4pm, 5pm, lunch or teatime.
The labels are a utility. Changing them several times per year reduce the utility of those labels, as well as causing the multitude of other problems, just because some people apparently can't get over their desire for calling the start of work a particula

You know, those of us who want the extra daylight could just get up an hour earlier and go into work earlier.

I can do that. However, I was under the impression the majority of people actually work for someone else, often at companies or organizations that have a set schedule. "You know, those of you who want this can just quit your jobs." Uh huh...

You know, those of us who want the extra daylight could just get up an hour earlier and go into work earlier.

And if you work are in management in an office building that might work. But if you work in a factory or a retail venue, that isn't an option. And, what about sending the kids to school?

A better solution would be that people just get up when they need to. If the switch over is a problem, then start a week early adjusting your alarm 10 minutes a day so by the time the clocks do change, you're in synch with them.

When I was in the Navy, I spent a couple of years on Bermuda. (I know; a TOUGH assignment!) Bermuda doesn't (did not?) do DST. Instead, many businesses did "summer working hours"; come to work at 7 AM, no lunch break, and then close at 2 PM. If many employers offered flextime, or people could break out of the clock-watching habit, then they could have the benefits of DST all year long.

The only thing "daylight savings time" does is force, by government decree, that EVERYBODY must do this at the SAME time, in lockstep.

I think the benefits of the system are being curtailed by the fact it's being applied by longitude instead of latitude.

As most know, the differences in sun rise and sun set align along the latitude (local solar time), yet the daylight savings adjustments are currently aligned against the averaged time zones by longitude. This was the easiest way to do it and it seems to be holding back the system (based off studies).

If instead they setup latitude DST to run perpendicular to the date lines, we'd definitely s

Evidently you're not old enough to remember Eastern War Time (when daylight was extended two hours).

Extending daylight means that activities that occur in the early evening are performed with the sun still out, which has various advantages, the primary being related to energy consumption-- less heat is needed, less electricity for lights, etc. There are various secondary arguments, such as fewer accidents.

Simply? Not everyone will do it, and you'll have a mishmash of people going to work earlier and some going to work later.

In late June, NYC would wind up with a 4:20 am sunrise and 7:30pm sunset. Yet events will still have to happen at their regular time, due to the mix of people with Summer and Winter hours. So you'll see no benefit reducing electrical use for large venues. (Baseball, for example, the lights will be on for more of the game).

To solve the problem is VERY simple, but the politicians don't like it. When you move to summer time, move the clocks 1/2 hour forward instead of 1 hour... and then LEAVE them there. No more going forwards and backwards wasting time changing countless clocks and gadgets, and no more bickering about moving the timezone multiple hours forward like the UK had recently just to please some European fascists.

I agree about DST, though I don't see the point in being a half-hour out of synch with GMT. It just makes the mental math harder.

I'd say just do away with daylight savings time the next time it comes around. You'd need to give everybody at least a year's notice anyway, so that devices can be updated and gotten into the retail channels.

"What that means is that if every one of 110 million American households bought just one ice-cream-cone bulb, took it home, and screwed it in the place of an ordinary 60-watt bulb, the energy saved would be enough to power a city of 1.5 million people. One bulb swapped out, enough electricity saved to power all the homes in Delaware and Rhode Island. In terms of oil not burned, or greenhouse gases not exhausted into the atmosphere, one bulb is equivalent to taki

"What that means is that if every one of 110 million American households bought just one ice-cream-cone bulb, took it home, and screwed it in the place of an ordinary 60-watt bulb, the energy saved would be enough to power a city of 1.5 million people. One bulb swapped out, enough electricity saved to power all the homes in Delaware and Rhode Island. In terms of oil not burned, or greenhouse gases not exhausted into the atmosphere, one bulb is equivalent to taking 1.3 million cars off the roads."

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/108/open_lightbulbs.html

I assume by "ice-cream-cone bulb" you mean compact fluorescent. The numbers show (at least in Canada) that they save electricity for the consumer but use significantly more electricity to produce and dispose of than incandescents (it takes 1.7kw/hour to produce a CFL vs.11kw/hour). Canada, New Zealand, and others are now rethinking their ban on incandescent bulbs as CFLs actually have a heavier carbon footprint than 60 watt incandescents.

The problem with DST is the free lunch mentality that goes with it. It was the first response of Congress to the "energy crisis" of the early 70's, and has remained the solution of choice for similar problems ever since. People genuinely believe they are getting "an extra hour of daylight", and expect other little bonuses to be handed to them just as painlessly.
Sorry for the rant, but it's long been a pet peeve of mine.

They are. People that aren't farmers don't care about daylight in the morning time, but they do care about it when they get off work. So it's exactly like getting a free hour of daylight from a utility point of view.

Of course they're getting an extra hour of daylight. I can't believe your post was marked insightful. Way to miss the point.

Sure it's trivial that the number of physical hours of daylight in a 24 hour period doesn't change by changing the clocks, but that's never been the reason to do so.
The reason is that people's lives are regulated by clocks. They get to work at 9, and leave at 5, or whatever the hours are. That also means they sleep during the "night" that's defined by those clocks.

The point of daylight savings is that the work hours and night hours are shifted, so that during the period when they are awake and working and living, the amount of daylight is, actually, truly, increased. Also, during the period when the clocks say it's time to sleep, the amount of darkness is increased.

Daylight savings is a great idea, and will continue to be a great idea for as long as human societies are using clocks to synchronize economic activity.

It didn't used to be like that. In medieval or ancient times, people's days started at dawn and ended at sunset, and that was the economic regulator. They didn't have appointments at ten, meetings at two, eight working hours etc. Instead they had longer work days in summer, shorter work days in winter, and meetings around midday, plus or minus a few hours.

In the spring, we should be moving the clocks *back* an hour. That way, it would actually be dark outside before midnight in the summer, allowing us to actually sleep in *darkness*.

Then, in the fall, we should be moving the clocks *ahead* an hour, so that it's actually light outside when we wake up, and it's *still* light outside when we are done work, giving us more "after work daylight".

Actually, the primary point of the "extra hour of daylight" is that (in the eyes of Congress at least) it encourages people to go out and shop during the summer evenings. That's why the latest changes to when DST started and stopped were billed as a measure to revive the economy.

Practicality, or the free time available to us peons, had nothing to do with it.

Everytime I read one of these "studies" that "shows" stuff, I can't help but think that the researcher is a press whore or is just trying to get more funding by throwing out a ridiculously convoluted "theory" to explain a simple observation. After all, the "people get stressed out when they're late for work" hypothesis doesn't get you as many grants.

theorizes that shifts in biologic rhythms could trigger harmful inflammatory or metabolic changes at the cellular level, to which these individuals may be more susceptible."

...OR "Shit shit shit shit I'm late for work I'm gonna be fired again!" gets to you...
Everytime I read one of these "studies" that "shows" stuff, I can't help but think that the researcher is a press whore or is just trying to get more funding by throwing out a ridiculously convoluted "theory" to explain a simple observation. After all, the "people get stressed out when they're late for work" hypothesis doesn't get you as many grants.

One fall Saturday night, I jokingly "reminded" my friend to turn his clock forward because of the time change - I said "Remember, fall forward, spring back". I figured his wife would catch the joke and correct him, and move the clock back an hour. Instead, he showed up for the 6AM restaurant opening time at 4 in the morning - which meant he must have gotten up at 2:30 AM...

So he's sitting in the mall parking lot all by himself, wondering where everyone is, when the police pull up to find out why some b

Turing the clock one hour ahead is bound to screw people up. So why not just turn the clock back 23 hours? The time will be the same, and we all can take that extra "Daylight Savings Day" as an opportunity to lounge around, doing nothing productive.

Actually, I think that if the switch to Standard Time occurred at 2am on a Monday, and then the switch to DST occurred at 4pm on a Friday, everyone would be happy.

It basically gives you an hour longer to sleep in on a Monday in the fall, and lets you off work an hour early on a Friday in the spring, giving you the weekend to start re-adjusting. Everyone gets what they want with the least amount of stress.

[states-centric..apologies]
So what political will, or interest, is there in ending DST? Over my too many decades I've heard only "we really don't need this thing anymore" with only very faint and feeble "it's good because...". But since there's no money in getting rid of it (or is there...?) then our politicians get distracted by fighting to stay in power and it never gets addressed ( http://www.boingboing.net/2008/11/21/obama-might-get-rid.html [boingboing.net] )

Really, if you shift your schedule... What to you miss? TV. TV is the problem here. The fact that shows are broadcast at a certain time. I predict (and hope) one day soon we'll be able to get The Daily Show and Colbert Report, when it is done production, and available on-demand. That way, you can watch them at any time. Without favorite TV shows to control our bed time, we can get as much sleep as we need. If you're willing to be a day behind that reality can be now. But it makes for ha

If the government gets rid of DST for the health benefits of a few then they should be required to make new laws for other causes of stress too: How about doing federal taxes, job interviews, coming home to the wife after a sneak trip to a strip club, traffic jams, law suits, the bogyman, XMAS shopping, public speaking, jock itch, earthquakes, tornadoes, ice storms and the list could go on forever. More so for some and less for others. Maybe our government should not try to protect us from all stresses

As someone that has to deal with DST and timezones in the IT world I say we go with straight GMT and get rid of all of the rest. Then let local areas adjust accordingly. So in central time zone areas we go to work @ 14:00 GMT and get off at @ 23:00...

Back during the last time change (autumn of 2010), I decided to not change my alarm clock's time. My computer and laptop would auto-adjust, and I'd still have to change the times on my DSLR camera, e-reader, and Nintendo DS. But the alarm clock time remains the same. When the alarm clock shows "9:30 PM", I go to bed (even though it's actually 8:30 PM). When the alarm clock shows "4:00 AM" (even though it's actually 3:00 AM), it sounds and I wake up.

We have daylight savings to *save daylight*. Because in winter-time, we have less sun.The human mind is closely connected to the sun. Less sun means less happines. Your health might also be connected to this. E.g. you move less when there is less sun, and you get less excercise.

I also have to point that there seem to be no study that proves that removing DST means less suicides or heart attacks.

My name is BMO and I live in Rhode Island. We here in the Northeast US are far enough east that during the winter, we go to work in the dark and we come home in the dark. Unless you have windows in your office or stock room or machine shop, or whatever, you never see the sun except on weekends. It's like being divorced and having partial custody - of sunlight.

The Eastern time zone is so wide that it stretches all the way to the Eastern border of Illinois. This is just nuts. When DST finally shows up in March, suddenly the sun sets at a reasonable hour.

New England and NY should secede from the Union and join the Maritime Provinces simply to get a sane time zone.

I'm sorry for ranting, but I'm tired of my Seasonal Affective Disorder and I can't wait for DST to get here. See? My SAD is showing!

That's your latitude, not your longitude. The number of hours of daylight is essentially the same at all points at a given latitude on a given day. If you're doing double dark commutes, you're actually just about properly situated in terms of standard time matching solar time. If you were farther east, you'd get morning light; farther west, it would be evening.

Actually, I can't imagine the summers up there -- I live in the South, and find the idea of sunlight at 9 pm somewhat disturbing. Then again, I

has already decided to end daylight-saving time [telegraph.co.uk].Because "power savings" from this back-and-forth are 0.2%. And hassles from switch time are simply not worth it:) Heck, Arizona lived without DST without problems...

Here in Canada, most of us are far enough north that our summers are bright, DST or not. Here in Vancouver at "only" 49 degrees north, the latest sunset (if we stayed on standard time) is about 2025 PST, with twilight until nearly 2200 PST in June and July. Further north it's brighter, later. I've been in Yukon (63 degrees north) in May when it was like a bright overcast day at 0100. How much more do people want?

By the same token, our winters are dark, no matter what we do. The earliest sunset in Vancouver is about 1600 PST, and the latest sunrise is about 0800 PST.

I think messing with the clocks is pointless. There may be a sweet spot, say, around 40 degrees north, but Canada is well north of that.

It's the same here in the Netherlands. Around June 21 twilight lasts past 22:45 and around 04:30 you'll see the eastern sky turn red again.
Not to mention the fact that the Central European Timezone runs from the Poland - Belarus border (~23 degrees east) to the western most tip of Spain (~9 degrees west), which is further west than Great Britain.

We had it somewhat solved prior to world war two. The Netherlands had its own GMT +00:20 timezone which went quite well with the fact that Amsterdam is about f

Yes - the problem is that we have to change it at all, not that the sun goes down an hour later (and comes up an hour later). I prefer the light at the end of the day myself, so, indeed, make it DST year round. Problem solved.

Daylight Savings Time is just getting your ass out of bed earlier while pretending you're not. If you like to have light in the afternoon after you get out of work, go to work earlier and leave earlier. You're probably a techie like most of us, so you can probably work flexible hours like most of us. It's different if you're a factory assembly line worker and everybody has to be there at once for the line to roll, or a schoolteacher who's got to be there when class starts. (It's also different if you're

The winter is terrible whatever we do with the clocks so I vote for keeping summer time all year round - because the summer is better for the extra hour of outdoor time in the evening. When you have slaved away for decades in an office you come to realize that this evening time is very valuable, I would even go so far as to say that double summer time GMT+2 would suit us in the UK with so called summer time GMT+1 for the winter. As for suicides and health problems - well stuff em I say, the gene pool could

the summer is better for the extra hour of outdoor time in the evening.

Hate to break it to you; it's a number on a display. You're not getting an extra hour, you're getting a different number.

fix the rest of capitalism before you get excited about trivial things like DST.

As long as people actually appear to think that they magically get extra time because the numbers on the display say one thing I'm afraid fixing capitalism is out of reach. After all, if the boss turned the clock back eight hours I'd assume that people would just keep working at the end of the day...

What you do get though is light that lasts longer into the evening which is great for those of us who don't live near the equator (and by Scandinavian standards Italy and the continental US are pretty damn close to the equator).

Where I live the sunrise in mid-december is generally around 9:30-10:00 in the morning with sunset just after 14:00. In fact, with standard office hours we basically have sunset before 17:00 betweeen late october and earl

Well, for a large part of the year mornings here in Sweden are pitch black with normal time so from our point of view having DST all year round wouldn't make much of a difference there, we'd still be getting to work while it was pitch black for quite some time but at least when we got off from work in the afternoon there'd be a few less weeks when it would already be pitch black again.

As I stated, with normal time we have "sunrise" (beginning of dawn) around 9:30-10:00 in december with sunset (end of dusk a

How about this modest proposal: let's grind up the "weak" and turn them into cat food! In fact, let's have sweeps on a yearly basis. This will finally solve our problems and allow humanity to advance to the next level. One may even go so far as calling it a.... final solution.

In other words, people who are already in trouble feel compound effects with other changes in their lives.

Can an hour or two really have such a severe effect? If that was the case, shouldn't there be a massive effect when travelling and crossing time zones? A quick PubMed search didn't throw up any studies with jetlag and suicide or heart attack.

You're talking about results of a self-selected study, essentially. Most people who travel have a choice about when to do it, and don't do it when they're not up for it. Start involuntarily loading millions of people into airplanes with no regard whatsoever for their current health status and moving them to new time zones, then see what effect jetlag has on their health.

The further you get from the equator, the more hours of daylight you get simply due to the tilt of the earth during the summertime anyways, and DST thus becomes increasingly redundant at higher latitudes at best.

Yes but it may simply be that their "time" is up, excuse the pun. For example talk to any nurse that works critical care and they'll say 'its always darkest before the dawn' because you are much more likely to die right before dawn than at any other time. my mom used to work ICU and said they'd make sure to have all the crash carts nicely set up and restocked by 2AM because between 3AM and 5AM you were much more likely to code.

Sadly we are still in our infancy in understanding how the complex changes to o