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randy: fob's whole argument revolves around omitting large chunks of history to help strengthen his (non)point

no doubt

You would think he would educate himself on the subject. We have been having this go around since he joined this site.

If he would just stop for a sec he would realize they are basically the same people that split off following different religions way back when.......basically when all the trouble started.

That may just be too difficult for him to comprehend I guess.

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt

yall still haven't answered my question...do yall support China's historical claim to the disputed islands in the Pacific? or is it different cause we're talking about China, not Israel? and since it's China, history doesn't matter?

it's like ripping out the first 200 pages of a history book and starting somewhere around chapter 20...

I am sure he has no idea how many times Palestinian leaders have rejected statehood.......for the benefit of their people obviously

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt

i didn't make that statement at all. please don't resort to the fob method of debating. it's unbecomming.

No, you didn't make the statement, but your argument against Palestinian claims to Israeli land directly applies. Unless there is bias involved, there is no reason to have an opinion on one but refuse to address the other. Yet, you've denied taking a position either way. It's only a matter of consistency. Feeling either way is perfectly legitimate imo.

My larger point, however, is that the only solution to the conflict is for both sides to acknowledge each other's legitimate historical claims to the area and live accordingly. When people acknowledge one group's history in the area but not the other's, we move only towards more war where lives will be lost needlessly on both sides.

yall still haven't answered my question...do yall support China's historical claim to the disputed islands in the Pacific? or is it different cause we're talking about China, not Israel? and since it's China, history doesn't matter?

China has a vast rich history full of accomplishments. I know some of China's history but none about the claims on these islands. So unlike you commenting on Israeli/Palestinian history I won't comment on it because I don't know enough about it.

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt

This thread shows a clear reason why there are two distinct sides in this war. No one can communicate and listen to what the other is saying.

not necessarily true.

as an israeli-american, i am not blind to the abhorrent treatment by the israeli gov toward arab settlers. it's a stain on the nation.

that said, it does not erase the fact that:

1. jews were long-settled and living in the territory now known as israel for ages before arab settlers, then also living with them simultaneously

2. arab nations and governments have chosen to leave their so-called brothers "on the street" rather than take them in

3. arab nations have unilaterally denounced statehood attempts

4. arab nations have helped fund terrorist groups

5. these terrorist groups have fired upon a sovereign nation, then when israel retaliates, they have strategically placed their rockets and operatives in areas with high civilian and children populations.

if you think those things are on par with the settlement issues on israel's side, i'd say we have some very different values regarding what is bad and what is absolutely deplorable.

No, you didn't make the statement, but your argument against Palestinian claims to Israeli land directly applies. Unless there is bias involved, there is no reason to have an opinion on one but refuse to address the other. Yet, you've denied taking a position either way. It's only a matter of consistency. Feeling either way is perfectly legitimate imo.

My larger point, however, is that the only solution to the conflict is for both sides to acknowledge each other's legitimate historical claims to the area and live accordingly. When people acknowledge one group's history in the area but not the other's, we move only towards more war where lives will be lost needlessly on both sides.

Who is saying the arabs of the region have no claim to land in Palestine? Problem is THEY can't live side by side with the Jews and haven't been able to since the start of recorded history.

Palestine is a large place and I don't fault the Arab's that call themselves Palestinian for not having a home or state. I blame their leadership for being kicked around the region.

They belong there just as the Jews do, as both groups have been for thousands of years prior to lines in the sand and the arabs being kicked out of basically everyplace else they have tried settling in.

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt

as an israeli-american, i am not blind to the abhorrent treatment by the israeli gov toward arab settlers. it's a stain on the nation.

that said, it does not erase the fact that:

1. jews were long-settled and living in the territory now known as israel for ages before arab settlers, then also living with them simultaneously

2. arab nations and governments have chosen to leave their so-called brothers "on the street" rather than take them in

3. arab nations have unilaterally denounced statehood attempts

4. arab nations have helped fund terrorist groups

5. these terrorist groups have fired upon a sovereign nation, then when israel retaliates, they have strategically placed their rockets and operatives in areas with high civilian and children populations.

if you think those things are on par with the settlement issues on israel's side, i'd say we have some very different values regarding what is bad and what is absolutely deplorable.

I agree, But I was mostly talking about the other side of the equation

And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
they're Lederhosen

No, you didn't make the statement, but your argument against Palestinian claims to Israeli land directly applies. Unless there is bias involved, there is no reason to have an opinion on one but refuse to address the other. Yet, you've denied taking a position either way. It's only a matter of consistency. Feeling either way is perfectly legitimate imo.

My larger point, however, is that the only solution to the conflict is for both sides to acknowledge each other's legitimate historical claims to the area and live accordingly. When people acknowledge one group's history in the area but not the other's, we move only towards more war where lives will be lost needlessly on both sides.

for the purpose of full disclosure: i am an israeli-american who DOES believe arabs have a right to some of the land in israel and that the settlement issues are a stain on israel's leadership. i believe the two can live together, but it takes two to tango. history indicates that israel would be monumentally naive to just give and give and give, and think everything will be ok. they've done that in the past (ceding land to palestinians) and it's always resulted in recurring turmoil.

i do not think israel has sole rights to israel. but i don't blame israel for taking extreme measures to protect itself in a region surrounded by people who have gone out of their way to destroy her and her people. i also don't think it's imprudent to be highly dubious of the intentions of people you've dealt with for generations and know to be half-hearted in their attempts for "peace."

as an israeli-american, i am not blind to the abhorrent treatment by the israeli gov toward arab settlers. it's a stain on the nation.

that said, it does not erase the fact that:

1. jews were long-settled and living in the territory now known as israel for ages before arab settlers, then also living with them simultaneously

2. arab nations and governments have chosen to leave their so-called brothers "on the street" rather than take them in

3. arab nations have unilaterally denounced statehood attempts

4. arab nations have helped fund terrorist groups

5. these terrorist groups have fired upon a sovereign nation, then when israel retaliates, they have strategically placed their rockets and operatives in areas with high civilian and children populations.

if you think those things are on par with the settlement issues on israel's side, i'd say we have some very different values regarding what is bad and what is absolutely deplorable.

Exactly.... Hamas shoots their rockets from parks/schools, etc... Places where children and Civilians POPULATE. They use innocent civilians as SHIELDS and are cowards because of that... So when Israel, takes out those wepons/leaders, and it happens to (accidently) (you really think Israel wants to kill children?) Hamas can say "oh look Israel is killing innocent civilians". Hamas/Iran/Hesbola both want to wipe Israel OFF THE MAP,(aka make it like they never existed) They dont give a crap about a peace treaty, or even getting some land... They want ALL the land....