George W. Bush Is The Greatest

Actually no, he's a blundering dumbass, but that has nothing to do with the post, I decided I would very underhandedly get your attention (Jaz, if this poses a serious problem, feel free to change the title of the post):

Alright, so I havn't logged in in a while, but I want some thoughts and opinions. I allowed myself (well jumped willingly) into what might turn out into a flame war on Facebook, and I want to (a) get some opinions on mine/her arguments and (b) show off my finer points :P It's been a while since an argument really got heated up (I miss the good 'ol days arguing on this forum... thanks to you guys and duking it out on the forum I have improved, either more rigorously following what I believed or realized soemthing I believed was stupid). So, here it goes:

Jenna:Hey guys!

I just wanted to lend another perspective to the description of this group. I think you have a good point that men in America are stigmatized and hurt by sexism, but I want to explain the statistics and whatnot above from a feminist point of view.

Okay, as far as men’s rights go, the reason many people are sort of sarcastic when it comes to men’s rights is that our society is a patriarchy, a society that was designed by men to benefit men. Although many steps have been taken to make women equal in our society, we still aren’t. So I think a lot of women get slightly offended when men act as if they have been suppressed by women, because we have felt suppressed for so long by the patriarchy.

One point I want to make before I go on is this: feminism is not about gender wars. The whole men vs. women thing is not founded in feminism. The “enemy” for feminists is the patriarchy, not men. Many men do not support the patriarchy. Some women support the patriarchy. So you see feminism is really about the equality of the two sexes.

So let’s get down to the “facts”.

The first fact states that more mothers kill or abuse their children than fathers. Let’s think logically about this. Women have traditionally been designated to the position of caretaker of the children. As much as women have tried to break out of this, our culture continually forces women back into the home. Women log many many more hours with their children than most men do. How many stay-at-home dads do you know? It would make sense that if abuse if happening, it is coming from the primary caretaker of the children. There is a very interesting book on the topic of women killing their children called “Bad Mothers.” It’s by Annalee Newitz, and chapter 24 is entitled “Murdering Mothers”. Here’s a stat for you- over half of female murderers kill family members, while men prefer to kill strangers. This concept is hard to understand. Women in our society are expected to be mothers. Women who choose not to have children are looked upon as unnatural, as if they have some disease or something terribly wrong with them. Many women would choose not to have children were it not expected of them. Some women who have long histories of being abused and confused may make the horrifying decision to kill their own children. This is an almost direct product of our society. I know this is a hard concept to wrap your head around- if anyone wants further clarification or details I would be happy to talk about my ideas or debate about this issue. At any rate, this is just a short explanation of why we see more abuse of children by women. Women are there more. Women are expected to be there. It makes sense.

The next fact states that “Nationwide divorced fathers are ten times as likely to commit suicide as divorced mothers, and more than twice as likely to commit suicide as married fathers.”

This is again, a common sense sort of thing. Patriarchy exists because, in short, men need women more than women need men. Single men are shown to be much more likely to be neurotic, suicidal, depressed, etc than married men, whereas single women seem to be fairly happy single and actually experience a decrease in happiness when they are married. When a man gets hitched, his mental health improves tenfold. As much as men bitch about marriage, women initiate more divorces than men. This doesn’t surprise me, as marriage is an institution primarily beneficial to men and secondarily unbeneficial to women. Also, most divorced mothers have custody of the children, and very few parents ever commit suicide, because they have this huge commitment to parent. Most parents don’t commit suicide at all. But divorced fathers are almost stripped of their parent responsibilities, and so not only are they single, but they have been mostly relieved of their parental duties, so…their probability of suicide rises considerably.

This next fact seems to run directly off of the former- custody and men. This statistic is strange to me, and I think that it is a product of the society we live in and an example of how sexism hurts everyone. I can see one reason why many women win custody. Because a woman has had the intimate experience of a growing a child inside of her for nine months and then physically bearing him or her out into the world, protecting and feeding and loving the child, it seems that the child is almost more hers than it is the fathers. I am not saying that this is right. I am saying that everyone has a connection with this idea, and I think it would be very painful for a judge to feel as if he or she is taking a child away from his or her mother. This issue is tricky and I think it would be interesting to know more about why exactly this happens.

This next one is really juicy. The idea of the absence/presence of a father and how it affects children seemingly more than the absence/presence of a mother, even though the mother has been a child’s primary caretaker. One idea I have about this is how our society views fathers. What does the word “father” trigger in your head? Provider, head of the house, man of the house, power, masculinity, authority, etc. These are all ideas and images that have been conjured and established by our western society. What I want to explain is how this hurts men, women, and their children. Okay, so we have this extreme picture of what a father means to children, and similarly we have a different and polar opposite set for women- mothers are supposed to be the moral guide, tender, sweet, silently encouraging, the passive, caring figure, and basically subservient to the father. In reality, both women and men have these characteristics. Not all men are so aggressive and authoritative, and not all women are meek and weak. In fact, these stereotypes are painfully wrong, and we are changing them slowly but surely. Men are sensitive, loving, and tender and caring naturally, but are taught to perform within a certain narrow gender role. Similarly, women are taught to suppress aggressive feelings, and to try to be beautiful and silent. So children grow up thinking that this is normal, and learn to conform to their respective gender roles as well. If a father is absent in the household, they don’t have what they perceive to be that authoritative figure, that solid, masculine figurehead. They react accordingly by taking all the rope they can. But why doesn’t the absence of a mother affect children in the same way? Because the role of a mother in our society has been traditionally degraded and severely unappreciated. Women were always saddled with the role of caretaker and homemaker. Men were relegated to the more “noble” workplace. If a woman declares that she is going to have a career instead of a family, this is thought to be an admirable pursuit as long as she also fulfills her “duty” as a mother. It is not accepted for women to give up their position as housewife. If a man decides he wants to stay home and raise his children while his wife brings home the bacon, he is thought of as weak, and he is said to be “stooping” to perform this role. So as you can see, the role of a mother in our society is unappreciated and therefore, for a child, a mother is a given. She is just sort of “there”. But if a father is gone he is gone…his role as provider, authority figure, etc, is deemed more important and therefore missed more sorely. So we can see how this negatively affects everyone involved.

Now for the next: Fathers have a much better record of paying court-ordered child support than mothers do.

Well, 75 percent of people on Welfare are women. Women today still only make 75% of what men make annually. This is bullshit. And ever heard of something called “the glass ceiling?” It’s the idea that women can only advance so far in the workplace in our society because of sexism. So initially, women are less able to afford child support. I’m not saying this excludes us from being equally responsible for child support, however, it explains why many women don’t pay their child support. And going back to custody, if a woman was not awarded custody in a contested case, there is probably something serious involved, such as a mental illness or a drug problem. See where I am going with this? The women who actually have to pay child support are in little position to do so in most cases. Going along with this topic, with the stat about the government shelling out $340 on enforcing child support for every $1 it spends on visitation rights…I’m actually not sure why this happens. I think that maybe there are more incidents of child support not being paid than refused visitation rights. I think this fact requires some more research- such as why the government feels that this is a proper proportion. I mean, I think it’s a more pressing issue if you don’t have enough money to feed your kids than if you can’t take them to a football game every Saturday, you know?

Okay, on to the next, the divorce study. The reason for divorce doesn’t really matter. What does this have to do with men’s rights? The whole affair stereotype- that men have more affairs, is basically socially constructed. It hurts men as well as women. It’s just another example of how sexism hurts everyone. I would like to know what percentage of divorces are cited as being caused by abusive and cruel women. Less than 1% probably. I come from a state where 28 women are killed by their husbands or boyfriends every year, Every year. Domestic abuse is usually a man abusing a woman, though men are not immune to it. And as I mentioned before, marriage is much more advantageous to men than women- so why would women stay in it? Usually only because society tells us to.

I think I have already explained the next fact. If a woman knows that she is going to become a single mother and face ostracism and financial hardship, and yet still feels strongly that she wants out of a marriage, I think that’s a good indication that something in the marriage is seriously wrong, and if she’s the initiator, it’s probably not an issue she caused.

The next issue can be related directly to the former. If two thirds of these divorces are ended by the women, then it would make sense that many of these women think there is something wrong with their ex-husband and maybe they don’t want their kids see him or be influenced by him. Of course this isn’t always the case and some mothers may be vengeful, but I think it’s wrong to try and make it seem like these mothers are maliciously snatching their children away from their fathers.

As for the last fact, it ties in directly again. Punitive reasons are one thing, safety reasons are another, but what about the in betweens? Maybe a punitive reason could have more to do with a woman feeling as if her husband has acted in a way that he deserves to be denied visitation. I’m not saying this is right, as it is the court’s authority which decides visitation, but I think you have to consider the human complications in issues like this. Nothing is cut and dry. Intent is blurry, and there are always so many variables that it is hard and also unwise to jump to conclusions about a certain group of people.

So what is my real point here? Sexism hurts women and men alike. Obviously someone felt enough sexism that he felt he needed to make this group. But men and women shouldn’t bicker about this, we should try to civilly discuss it and reach a solution together, because that is the only way we can really fix the problem. Feminism is a sort of global symbol of gender equality, and deals with equality of the sexes, not the superiority of women. By pushing feminine ideals, we can make this country and by extension eventually this world a better place for both sexes. I know that stereotypes and stigmatism oppresses men too. Women have been dealing with this for a much longer time however. We have been oppressed for thousands of years and to this day are still unequal in what is supposed to be the most open-minded and innovative country in the world. So really guys, you don’t have as much to complain about, but I think it is crucial to complain about what you can and I believe in men’s rights, too. Has this cleared anything up for anyone? Let’s talk about it if you like.

Me:Siiigh. I would hope for a better showing from the feminists, but obviously not.

First off, have you ever been oppressed by the opposite sex? If so: how many times and for how many professional programs, scholarships, studies, and support groups? We (or maybe better yet I) make no claims or indications to the past. Granted yes there was a system of patriarchy in the past, I'm not proud of that HOWEVER I was not alive then and could not have done anything about it. Just like you weren't alive then and weren't oppressed by it.

Want to live in the past? My grandmother's family was completely destroyed by Hitler (I'd be German Aristocracy/"Old Money" had things not gone the way they did). I don't ask for reparations or special treatment. My grandfather is a Yugoslav (you all remember Bosnia?) and was a freedom fighter against Tito. He couldnt' go back to his home country due to a price on his head from the 1960s till about 1995. I don't ask for special treatment nor use the past as a weapon. I live here and now.

Now on to your points:

You first point on the women more likely to abuse their children. Granted yes women are the caretakers, however this role certainly isn't force upon you. How many times do we see the women restrict access to their kids from divorced husbands? Studies show children, aha, need their fathers if they wish to have a decent chance growing up... decent. Don't even bring up the whole "women in abused families tend to abuse" idea, thats a universal fact. It affects men, women, and transvestites.

Now the divorce part: Oh my fucking god are you out of touch. Did you re-read that paragraph? Divorced men typically have severly limited visitation rights with their children. The anecdotal weekend. His children, fruit of his loins, light of his life, he can't fucking play with them whenever he wants to. Are you saying men don't like or want kids, because thats a sever generalization. Of course they become suicidal, they've lost stability AND more importantly they've lost their kids!

The fact that you wrote that paragraph shows an amazing amount of insensitivity and cruelty. You carried a child in your womb for 9 months and then bore the child, yes I give you thats an arduous journey. Had man not been there, there would be no journey. Stop trying to claim the kid because he came out of your womb, he's the man's child also. Bearing the child makes you no better of a parent.

All I have to say is how would you feel having your children stripped of you because women had dominated in the past and had done unspeakable things, EVEN THOUGH you aren't even RELATED, much less were ALIVE when these things occurred and EVEN THOUGH you fully support equality and have no bias?

And your next paragraph: Who said father are more needed? All that was said is fathers are extremely important to the development of a child, just as is a mother is extremely important. Even so, you can surrogate with a "father-figure" and a "mother-figure" and still come out even up. Children need both figures, THEY NEED BOTH. Stop this high and mighty "I can do it by myself" bullshit and for the love of god at least find the child a "father-figure."

And your point about women suppressing emotions, you think men are allowed to do whatever the hell they want? You think we have it better off? Since you base your points off the old system, here's some food for thought: Men aren't allowed to Cry or show any similar emotion. We aren't allowed to "love" our friends, we aren't allowed to enjoy art. Hell we aren't even allowed to just let people do things for us unless they owe us. Under the old system we are expected to be the rock for those around us. May I ask you, on whom does the rock lean, for we men are human and we have needs? I don't know about what sexist views you hold but if a man decides to stay at home while his wife brings home the bacon, sure other guys will have a laugh at the bar but dammit, we all realize that jackass gets to sit at home and have sports center on and not really have to worry about money AND gets to spend a whole bunch of time with his kids!

Onto divorce: Your comment on the $340-$1... so you're saying paying child support to a person who BECAUSE THEY HAVE CUSTODY should have a job is vastly more important than the child being able to see one of it's parents? Where do you get off? And to your abuse statement, since you didn't tell us which state and I havn't the time or the energy to entertain you, tell me how many men were killed as a result of domestic abuse that year? It will be higher (and make sure you're looking at the same study that claimed 28, otherwise you'll have no scientific or statistical grounds to claim ANYTHING). Regardless of the numbers, 28 and whatever the number is for men are still greater than 0. So why focus just on supporting women, allowing the number 28 to fall while leaving the other number the same? I guess men can defend themselves, OH WAIT, despite the strive for equality it is STILL socially inacceptible to strike a woman YET it is socially acceptible to strike a man... hmmm, smells like duplicity and hipocrisy...

You're so out of touch on the divorce issue too, it boggles my brain.

Of course women getting divorces find something wrong, HOWEVER don't you think with this whole equality idea, the number should be closer to 50/50? Maybe men don't want to take women to court for a divorce because, oh I don't know, men are statistically more likely to loose more than his fair share of assest AND visitation rights to the children? "Good" visitation rights connotate the idea of he gets a visit every or every other weekend... Would you risk your kid against these odds? I wouldn't, then again I think I actually would be a responsible parent.

Of course intent is blurry and the world is in shades of gray, but I'm sorry "sister," the facts and statistics are darkening those greys.

And we don't have much to complain about? You don't have much to complain about either, don't even stand on that soapbox. Yes, you get paid less, but you also reap benefits in programs and government funding for research and awareness, and simply the fact that you have rape and domestic abuse centers you can go to without the fear of being laughed at makes up for that difference.

Also have you taken into the account this logical idea: America is a capitalistic society, and we have men that work for 100% and women that work for 75%. Wouldn't it make economical sense for an employer to employ just women at 75%? Its the same theme as outsourcing, and with so many women in power today in corporations don't give me the good-ol-boy system cop-out. Employers taking on women take on certain things: Women are more likely to be aware of their schedule, IE women will actually balance their schedules (actually this is good of you, men need to learn this) however this sacrifices work time. Men are more likely to devote their lives to work. Therefore men are statistically more likely to put in more hours which means more work, therefore men will have the greater demand. Also when an employer takes on a women he takes on sexual harrasment lawsuit liabilities (which severly hamper the environment, especially in the IT field where men who don't even know how to talk to women already are told if they say the wrong thing they can loose their entire career) and maternity leave liabilities.

As for your last paragraph, I think I've kept my civility on long enough because I just read something that irked me: "Feminism is a sort of global symbol of gender equality, and deals with equality of the sexes, not the superiority of women. By pushing feminine ideals, we can make this country and by extension eventually this world a better place for both sexes."

OH MY FUCKING GOD, are you REALLY that NAIVE? Look at the goddamned word, "Feminism." All definitions for Feminism only have to do with FEMALES! Feminism isn't interested in gender equality, feminism was interested in a better life for women. Feminism isn't designed to help men, it isn't designed to help blacks, feminism is there for women. There isn't anything wrong with this, thats what a special interest group is FOR, but don't be so stupid as to think Feminism ideals are good for society!

Do you REALIZE your precious feminists you admire so great OSTRACIZED a woman because she dared to open up a domestic abuse clinic for men? Ironically enough this woman was the same woman that started the first clinic and call center for WOMEN!?

You know what, I am genuinely sorry women were oppresed in the past, just as I'm genuinely sorry blacks and other minorities were treated the way they were, but if you want to pull the "oh well back in the past that didn't affect me because I wasn't alive then but am reaping the rewards that resulted in the efforts of people before me and am sitting on my soapbox" excuse, then you know what, I don't feel sorry because my family was forcibly ejected from 2 countries: one being their home countries, and another being Chile because of their nationalities. Infact essentially the entire first 60 years of the 20th century, my family's race was the most hated in the world (just incase you're completely lost, as your post would lead me to believe you lack in the mental facilities, I'm German thank you very much). So if you want to pull the past card, GO AHEAD, I'm ready to roll right now.

Jenna:#1 I'm sorry you're german. Uh, that's not really the same thing as being a woman but...okay.#2 We currently live in a patriarchy. Hello.#3 Women are expected (not forced, but expected) to be the primary caretakers of their children. Show me one person our age who expects to be a stay-at-home dad when he grows up. What? You can't? Hmm.#4 "fruit of his loins, light of his life, he can't fucking play with them whenever he wants to?" umm, youre starting to sort of skecth me out with this fruit and loins business. The suicide rate is for single men, not men who have been married and now have children who their devil crazy bitch (sarcasm anyone?) wives are snatching away from their one and only truly loving father.#5 your next two paragraphs make no sense. you're extremely offensive you know that?#6 okay...so first you said that in order for a child to have a decent shot at growing up "normal" they MUST have a father. Then you say they....don't have to but should have a father figure. Has it ever occured to you that most kids raised by one parent do fine?#7 In response to your jumbled and contradicting paragraph that starts with "And your point about women suppressing emotions..." Okay did you actually read my post? I really don't think you did. My whole main point was that sexism hurts everyone. You're in college right? Critical reading, darling, learn to do it.

before I go on, I'd like to point out that while my arguement was very rational, practical, and careful to consider all viewpoints, yours thus far has been offensive, careless and...basically idiocy and i regret even reading it thus far. from now on im skimming, im pretty by this point that youre not worth my time.

#8 You. havent. read. my. post.

the whole time i was pointing out how sexism hurts everyone. your entertaining "art" comment and now... men hitting women vs women hitting men. well obviously someone must think its okay. 28 women. 4 men. thats 7 women for every one man. society is exactly whats fucked up in this situation. four. 1 . 2 . 3 . 4.

#9 your divorce paragraph is foggy at best. dont bother restating it. you seem to have this fear of being laughed at for showing emotions or going to a rape crisis center. do i really need to point out why? i'll spare you the embarassment, bro.

#10 so..we get paid less...but thats okay because there are government programs to pay us 50$ a month so we can buy milk?

honey. if we were getting paid like men are, NO ONE WOULD NEED THE PROGRAMS.

#11 I want you to take a little walk down memory lane. Reread your paragraph that starts "Also have you taken into the account this logical idea: America..."Explain to me how it would make sense for an employer to hire just women for 75%. This sentence does even make sense.So many women in power today? What? All 24 of them? Yikes! That's an assload of women right there!!! "Women are more likely to be aware of their schedule" wow, youre being sexist against your own sex. will wonders never cease. i bet you think that men cant cook either? this sacrifices work time? is that really the best thing you can come up with as to why women should be paid one quarter less than men? are you serious? Men are expected to devote their lives to work, eh? what happened to playing with the kiddies? Sexual harassment- well thats an easy problem to solve- dont be an asshole. simple enough. maternity leave- so now its a problem that women have babies? should we just not have babies? then you wouldnt be able to frollick with them in the backyard of your tidy suburban home while simultaneously devoting your life to your IT job! oh no!

and last but certainly not least!

wow. i was hoping people like you didnt still exist. honey- DID YOU READ MY POST???? Feminism= equality of the sexes. in case you havent noticed, women today are STILL NOT EQUAL. perhaps thats why you failed to actually respond to most of my post (oh maybe because its right?????)

women are not treated equally in our society. are. not.

youre bitching about gender stereotypes of men, but you claim that women are actually treated equally? are you serious? oh your "fucking god" apparently i'm pretty damn "naive" because I can actually wrap my head around gender equality. i bet youre against abortion too, arent you? feminism is a movement for the equality of the sexes, if that isnt helping the world i dont know what is. why dont you actually take a womens and gender studies course and then talk to me. i am educated about this subject, i'm fucking majoring in womens studies, so dont tell me that my definittion of feminism is wrong. its ignorant, foolish people like you who gives men a bad name.

and again, im sorry youre fucking german. im lebanese and my relatives in lebanon are mia, awol, WE DONT KNOW WHERE THEY ARE. so dont fucking tell me about your personal family problems. im sure your relatives are fine and fucking dandy people, but its not my issue that they happened to be ejected from a few countries because people happen to be ignorant assholes who are intolerant of the inherent rights of other groups of people (sound familiar?)

thats right. for all of the preaching you just did, none of it is worth shit because you just proved yourself to be ignorant, uninformed, and sexist and that is EXACTLY the type of close-minded thinking that got YOUR own FAMILY kicked out of their home country.

how do you feel now??

also, one mor comment. the creator of this group agrees with my points and thanked me for adding my reasonable, thought out response which actually had points backing it up other than "i'm a bitter chauvinistic pig"

thank you very much.

Me:

1: Well, I'm sorry you're a woman. Allow me to explain the point I was apperantly oh so subtly trying to get across: You seek to gain vengence for wrongs done not to YOU, but to women that came before you that most likely, you aren't related to. I'm pointing out the fallacy in that while my immediate family (note my grandmother, and to a lesser extent my mother) as been GRIEVOUSLY wronged in ways you can't even imagine, I don't use it to prop up any of my reasons to dislike anti-germans or germans. I can't make any claims, and I can't whine beacuse, well lets face it, I had a posh childhood compared to my parents.

And yeah, my last name's fuckin french. Notice how I talked about my mom and my grandmother (being my mom's mom). Can you explain to me, according to western traditions, what happens to the woman's last name when they marry?

2: We live in a patriarchy? Granted there are more men in office, but do they really have a backbone? Ignoring that, explain to me the vast chasm that is equality in the courts when it comes to divorce and rape cases? Before you go into "the nature of men," realize that to accept that men are inherently more violent and inherently more sexually driven than women, you must also accept that women are designed to bear and raise children. Otherwise you'd be a hypocrite, however something tells me this doesn't bother you?

3: Now your question doesn't make sense. Women are 'expected' to be caregivers (saying that other people place these expectations on them), now name one boy who expects to be a stay-at-home dad (saying that the boy himself expects this). Try fixing your question. I don't know any girl my age that wants to be a stay at home Mom. They will admit its probably in their future, but they intend on a career and will try and work the career when they have kids if at all possible.

4: What the hell are you talking about? I'm trying to read what you say but its kinda hard. Suicide rate is for single men...

"Nationwide divorced fathers are ten times as likely to commit suicide as divorced mothers, and more than twice as likely to commit suicide as married fathers."

Where does it say single, hmm?

5: I'd apologize, but I'm sorry: you're delusional view of the world offends me. The constitution grants you the right to say what you said and to not listen to me, no the right to not get offended.

6: Do you take into account the child raised by one parent having mother/father figures? I apologize that early in my post i said father, when I wrote I tried to go back and correct all the "fathers" into "father figures." Appearantly I'm human and make mistakes.

7: No, you wren't rational, you weren't practical, and you didn't considder all viewpoints. You considdered your viewpoint and procdeded to tell me that a special interest group designed for the advancement of women provide benefits to all, as opposed to say 2 special interest groups, one for men and one for women, playing the checks and balances game and duking it out in congress? Think, baby doll, think. (By the way, I'll stop the baby doll, you stop the darling).

I'm sorry you're forced to read something that offends you. I read your post and I walked away with bile in my mouth, but I still read it. Life isn't roses, and life isn't what the N.O.W. tells you it is.

8: Stop drinking, it's bad for your health. What do those numbers mean? You learn in all of your science classes to give numbers units, otherwise their numbers and only math people like "just" numbers.

I can count to... In binary because I'm bored:1,10,11,100,101,110,111,1000,1001,1010,1011,1100,1101,1110,1111, and so on and so forth...

9: Do I have a problem showing emotion, well yeah. So you tell me to suck it up yet demand that you get treated better because its not socially acceptible to ... oh I don't know, say work in the workforce? Hyyypoooccccriiiisssyyyy

10: Who said anything about government programs? I don't give a flying fuck what the government does. The government gave us Social Security, a very nice idea that I fully support executed in the worst way possible.

11: You completely missed my point and then proceeded to go way off topic. My argument was not in support of 75% pay. My argument was your silly notion that our 'patriarchial' government is responsible for you pay, the 'good 'ol boy' system.

What I said was (take some economics classes), if you're a rational employer (and I'm actually not making fun of you, it's an economic term), and you have the choice of paying men 100% of a set wage to do work for you, or you could pay women 75% of the same wage to do the same work, the employer would hire nothing but women. Why? He can get 25% more out of his money.

----------------

Yes, men like me exist. I pray to god more men like me exist. I love women, I want to treat women right. I want them to be successful in the work force, I want them to have all the same rights afforded me within reason (to say completely would get rid of pregnancy leave as I'm not afforded this).

Feminism is not about equality of the sexes. Feminism has, and will always be, the advancement of women. Whether the end goal be equal to men or superior to men, that is not the point. How am I wrong? Look at the word: Feminism, derived from Feminine, which has nothing to do with men who's counterpart word is Masculine. If it was about equality for all, it would be Androginism.

As for abortion: I fully support it. It's not my utuerus. Please don't just jump to conclusions and assume, it's very unbecoming of someone so enlightened as you.

Don't take everything your gender studies professors tell you at face value. You are at college to learn how to think for yourself, not spew back the party mantra. You do the world a disservice by doing this, regardless of the how or how not correct they are.

As for my family, they're all dead, dying or don't keep up with us out of a lack of concern or careing, thank you very much.

And do I care what the creator of the group thinks? No not really. He may be the voice of moderation, he may be stupid, or he may be the next thing closest to god. Beauty of where I live is: I don't have to care. And I don't, I don't care what he told you, that doesn't change what I think one bit.

Also, one more comment. Don't call me close minded when you don't even want to read my entire post. Enjoy fantasy land!

I know I kinda went overboard with my swearing on the first post, normally my rule of thumb is let the other person in the debate stoop to personal attacks... *shrug* I lost my edge, but I hope to get it back...

Bibliography, quote unquote

By the way, the group's "description":

America has transformed into an increasingly feminine society. Feminists fight for rights for women, but when somebody speaks of men's rights they are chastised. The facts are boys are falling behind girls in school. Most states' laws heavily favor women in the areas of domestic and child abuse as well as divorce and child custody. This is not right. Here are some facts:

-Most child abuse and parental murder of children is committed by mothers, not fathers.

- Nationwide divorced fathers are ten times as likely to commit suicide as divorced mothers, and more than twice as likely to commit suicide as married fathers.

-Men win custody in only 10% of contested custody cases

- The largest factor in predicting whether a child will graduate high school, attend college, become involved in crime or drugs, or get pregnant before age 18 is the presence (or absence) of a father in the child’s life. Studies show that this remains true even after adjustments for household income.

- Fathers have a much better record of paying court-ordered child support than mothers do.

- The government spends $340 on enforcing child support for every $1 it spends on enforcing visitation rights.

-A randomized study of 46,000 divorce cases published in the American Law and Economics Review found that in only 6% of cases women claimed to be divorcing cruel or abusive husbands, and that adultery was cited by women as a cause of divorce only slightly more than by men. Surveys of divorced couples show that the reasons for their divorces are generally a lack of closeness or of "not feeling loved and appreciated."

- Two‑thirds or more of all divorces involving couples with children are initiated by mothers, not fathers.

-A study of children of divorce found that 42% of children who lived solely with their mother reported that their mother tried to prevent them from seeing their fathers after the divorce. However, only 16% of children who lived solely with their father reported similar obstruction.

-In another study, 40% of divorced mothers admitted that they had interfered with their ex-husband's access or visitation, and that their motives were punitive in nature and not due to safety considerations.

I got all of these facts from Glenn Sack's "His Side" website, where all of his claims are well cited, many from releases of government agencies. You can find his source page at http://www.hisside.com/source_page.htm.

This is horrible and must stop. It's time to equal out the damage that feminism has caused.

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

I must admit I rather skimmed through the whole thing rather than reading it in its entirety, so I may be missing a point or two. But since you've spared no efforts to gain my attention :-P here are my .02, for what they're worth...

I think you've made some good points in your post(s). What bugs me about Jenna's rants is that she's over-generalising everything. Men suppress women. Then (right at the beginning) she gives one definition of feminism with which probably not all feminists agree (namely the "the penis is our enemy" fraction). She suggests that all men on this planet are exactly the same, and all women on this planet are exactly the same. That just doesn't work for me.

And then the "men and women should be 200% equal" thing. It's a statement I see quite often in feminist propaganda: every man who claims there's a difference between men and woman is a sexist. Hello all feminists, it's not gonna happen! And you know why not? Because men and women are different! To name just one of many examples, a pregnant woman's body will produce hormones that cause her to build a nest (i.e. buy tons of baby furniture, clothes, ...) and prepare her to be a mother. That's hormones, not something unnatural forced upon her by her husband.

Then,

This is again, a common sense sort of thing. Patriarchy exists because, in short, men need women more than women need men. Single men are shown to be much more likely to be neurotic, suicidal, depressed, etc than married men, whereas single women seem to be fairly happy single and actually experience a decrease in happiness when they are married.

Please Jenna (whoever/wherever you may be), what did you smoke?I'm a married man myself, so did you mean to imply that I've just married to maintain my emotional stability at the expense of my wife's happiness?Also, it was my wife who started to talk about marriage (this is not to imply that I regret it). She also wants to get pregnant because she says her "inner clock is ticking". Her. Not me. I'm more like Jake in She's Having a Baby when Kristy asks him to say 'commitment' and he chokes.

All married couples, may I have your attention please:If it was the woman who first started making subtle hints about marriage, raise your hand now.*counts*And now, the couples where the woman has somehow been forced/coaxed into marriage by the man.*counts*There you are.(But that's probably just another thing caused by men's constant manipulation of the female mind)

If a woman is unhappy and marries in the hopes that her husband will magically make her happy, and it doesn't happen, the fault is not with the man.

----

I'm stopping here. :-) May I conclude with a suggestion to Jenna - I know how you feel, and I think Jack Black has exactly what you need.

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

All married couples, may I have your attention please:If it was the woman who first started making subtle hints about marriage, raise your hand now.*counts*And now, the couples where the woman has somehow been forced/coaxed into marriage by the man.*counts*There you are.

According to me, there are different ways to interpret what you just stated ;) In my case, I would say that I did not intentionally tried to send any hints to Neil. In fact he proposed in December 2004 when I was not expecting that at all. And then, as you know, we married only in July 2006. However, I think that according to him things might have gone differently. He might say that I dropped subtle hints about us getting married, and therefore he proposed.

But anyway you want to put it, in the end both of the people in a couple must have the will to get married. If Neil didn't feel like getting married right then, I could have dropped all the hints in the world, and he would not have proposed. Same thing for you and Tamara (I think). Therefore I think that the way you get into a marriage is really not so important, especially when you consider that guys (at least Italian guys, but I guess all over the world) don't want to risk their face in doing something. Let me state that better: Neil would probably not have proposed if he hadn't been 100% sure I would have said yes. He says that he was worried about me replying no, but then I don't think he really really believed that could have been a possibility. This leads me to state that guys might propose only after the woman "has dropped subtle hints", because at least they feel confident that they won't lose their face and feel like dumbasses, since there is no way for the woman to say no.

In other words, women might send out subtle hints, but I think that ultimately they are led into a marriage by the guys who propose. My 0.2, but I am totally convince that some guys here will raise their hands and disagree :P

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

In my case, I would say that I did not intentionally tried to send any hints to Neil.

Oh, I didn't mean to say that all women secretly brain-wash their males towards marriage. :-) In fact, I think I agree with your theory that sometimes the guy watches his girl for subtle hints before he proposes.I just think it's ridiculous to state something like "marriage makes men happy and women unhappy." Even if the man wants to marry and the woman doesn't, she can still say no. So if a woman knows that she'll be unhappy in a marriage, and she still says yes, she's got nobody but herself to blame. (Of course that applies to men, too - but that's not what Jenna was discussing)

When life hands you a lemon, that's 40% of your RDA of vitamin C taken care of.

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

In other words, women might send out subtle hints, but I think that ultimately they are led into a marriage by the guys who propose. My 0.2, but I am totally convince that some guys here will raise their hands and disagree :P

Well, to save face, I must confess that I was entirely sure Elena wanted it before having proposed. My 'doubts' were centered around nervousness, in my humble opinion. At a certain point about 1 year before the time in which I proposed, Elena had said something along the lines of "marriage" and "future." I won't claim they were definite hints about me proposing, but I will say that it got me to thinking down that path. I sincerely doubt this was the solitary factor in my decision. Probably would have happened, but just a few months later than it did.

And there is really no reason why your opinion should be 20 cents and not 2. ;)

If the world should blow itself up,the last audible voice would be an expert saying it can't be done

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

single women seem to be fairly happy single and actually experience a decrease in happiness when they are married.

Never seen Bridget Jones diaries?Anyway: I remember my single-life that way: I was depressed, thinking about men all the time and hunting them in endless, depressing nights. Finally being in a relationship meant to get to learn new feelings, good and bad ones. But it made me wiser in some kind. More adult but also more childish in some way. Ergo: My horizon got broader. I don't think marriage changed anything but the fact I can't just walk away if I wanted to. But that's a good thing for me because it means I have to work for our relationship, it's not just a loose thing, I have to use my mind to make sixty years out of six months. And I expect it will make me even wiser day by day, makes my horizon even broader. I don't want to return to that sad teenager I was before.

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

But that's a good thing for me because it means I have to work for our relationship, it's not just a loose thing,

Ehem. So you consider a relationship that is NOT called marriage as a lose thing? That hurts. As if you simply could quit out of a long-term relationship, just by clapping your hands together and saying: "uhm, I dont feel like being together anymore" X-(

But maybe this "lose thing" is what makes it much harder to keep it, and to work on it. But what you earn is more than just some paper that has some signature under a text telling that you and your significant other belong to each other.

Re: George W. Bush Is The Greatest

Ähem, I didn't want to hurt your feelings, ginsterbusch. I just can't express myself in english as good as in german. I don't consider our marriage as more valuable than a long-term relationship, God forbid! I mean I've been in a long-term relathionship, too before I signed that paper. I just want to try harder now in some way, I can't explain it. Before I knew if it all turns into total chaos I can walk out and it's less harmful than now because marriage for me isn't not just a paper but something that other people can see. And despite the average 50 percent of divorces in my country I think it still means something socially seen and I'd lose more than my face if I failed. Well, I think I only make it worse in trying to explain. Maybe I should just stop here. Sounds weird. I'm not so sure why it was important for me to marry, maybe some mix of eager to wear a white dress and be sure to be prepared for a child - legally seen *ponders* It also makes living in my country easier for my beloved one now. Low taxes ahead, yay! :)