I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years. Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?

I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer. A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that. But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about. Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is: Is it easily confused with another? Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?

I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years. Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?

I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer. A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that. But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about. Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is: Is it easily confused with another? Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?

Tom's absolutely right. If I go into a brewpub and see CDA on the board, up until recently (when Zymurgy came out a couple months ago) I wouldn't have any idea what sort of beer I'd be getting. I would certainly know what to expect if ordering a Black IPA.

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Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)Homebrewing since 1990AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member BJCP judge since 1995

I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years. Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?

I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer. A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that. But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about. Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is: Is it easily confused with another? Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?

Yes, this is true. Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale. Shenanigans! But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish.

I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years. Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?

I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer. A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that. But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about. Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is: Is it easily confused with another? Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?

Yes, this is true. Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale. Shenanigans! But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish.

How about a Black India Ale (BIA) to distinguish from an India Brown ale?

Yes, this is true. Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale. Shenanigans! But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish.

FWIW, I've never heard a NW brewer claim to have invented it or claim that it was invented in the NW. But there's a lot of them here, it seems like every brewery makes one. I assume that's where it came from. Bouef.

Yes, this is true. Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale. Shenanigans! But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish.

FWIW, I've never heard a NW brewer claim to have invented it or claim that it was invented in the NW. But there's a lot of them here, it seems like every brewery makes one. I assume that's where it came from. Bouef.

From the articles & beer blogs that I've read, it seems like a NW beer writer, Abram Goldman-Armstrong, is the one who's championing the name CDA and the idea that the style was a NW creation He cites John Maier's Skull Splitter as being the seminal beer & The 2003 Oregon Brewers Fest being the time & place it was introduced. The brewers may or may not be claiming to have invented the style, but NW beer writers certainly are. I know that Greg Noonan was brewing his Blackwatch IPA in the mid-90's. I had the opportunity to try it when he brought some of that beer to the Sunshine Challenge in Orlando where he was a guest speaker on Strong Scotch Ales.

However, the black ipa 'style' goes back waaay before that. Check out this passage from the 1888 book - "The Theory and Practice of Modern Brewing" by Frank Faulkner, 1888, pages 259-260. I guess 'modern' must be a moving target The key part is the last sentence or two where he talks about it being a variant of the Burton ales (hoppy pale ales & IPA's). Anyway, thought it was an interesting reference that shows this certainly isn't a new style. It may be popular in the NW, but certainly didn't start there. Here's the passage......

"The varying classes of black beer are produced in several distinct centres of brewing by as many different methods, but, as a rule, we have two main principles in operation—the use of a soft water in conjunction with malt of distinctly heavy character, not inefficiently grown, but at the same time not by necessity so fully vegetated as that employed in the production of pale or stock beers.

The possibility of using such material turns upon the fact that a large proportion of the malt used consists of highly caramelised varieties, and, as before explained, caramelised bodies possess a marked preservative or antiseptic character, while the black beers produced are not always required to keep for any very lengthy period. To begin with, then, it is not customary to employ saline waters, or, in other words, if such water be employed the black beer produced is deficient in that roundness and fulness of palate taste that is considered so necessary a feature, while I can example this by referring to the black beer produced at Burton, which has been universally described as a mere black pale ale—i.e., though black in colour, its palate taste reminds one very strongly of the pale beers produced by Burton firms. It will be quite understood that I am not decrying this article; it may and does suit many palate tastes, and is thought a great deal of on the Continent, but at the same time it differs very widely from the accepted standard quality of a black beer as specified."

I think I will give that 1554 a shot some time and see how it stax up....thank you

Did you end up brewing this?

Not yet beersk. I have a couple lagers I want to do while the ambient is cold. This may show up after I get those done. And for now, I need to kick one more kegso that I can pull it all together, I need a landing spot for those lagers.

The brewers may or may not be claiming to have invented the style, but NW beer writers certainly are.

I noticed this trend of adding "Northwest" or "Oregon" to everything while I lived in Portland. I think it stems primarily from PNW-ers being really proud of where they live (understandably) and of Oregonians sometimes having California-envy. Case in point: "Pacific Northwest Cuisine" is identical to the "California Cuisine" invented in the 1970's by Alice Waters, Wolfgang Puck, and the like. But PNW food writers and chefs will say that, because they use all or mostly PNW ingredients, they are making PNW Cuisine and not California Cuisine or "New American Cuisine."

Personally, I don't really care that CDA implies the beer "belongs" to the PNW. It is FAR more popular there than it is here in California or in NYC (though I can't speak for anywhere else, I assume Black IPA is somewhat obscure elsewhere, too). Almost every brewery I knew in Portland had a Black IPA - with some having revolving Black IPA's so they could test out which one worked. If the push was to call it a "Northwestern Dark Ale" I wouldn't find it so annoying. But "Cascadian" is a dumb word that means nothing. Outside of the PNW not enough people know what Cascadian means for it to be worthy indicator of a beer style. It sounds like the beer is made from waterfalls or something. So I call it Black IPA - silly or not, people know what I'm talking about.

beersk, I re-read your post and recipe and you specify lager yeast. The heading of this threadis ALE...so there I did the freudian thing and did not think that one of the lagers I could brewcould be your 1554 recipe since it does indeed use lager yeast. I wanted to brew a maibockand then something on the yeast cake from that...may just work quite well....and fyi, I have2 packets of S-189 reserved for these beers.