equilibrium wrote:The blessed one being within a group of people does not provide the necessary "right conditions" for the blessed one to prosper.

What do you mean by "to prosper"? Do you mean "to get more comfortable" or "to teach more effectively"?

To prosper is to benefit, the blessed one cannot benefit without the right conditions.....just like everyone else.

Mal wrote:

equilibrium wrote:Then the blessed one being alone and becomes aware of his changed environment, from a group to alone, which provides the right conditions for one to see oneself the difference between a group and alone....."Not hemmed in, I live pleasantly and in ease"

Doesn't the Buddha always live pleasantly and at ease? You actually say this:

Not according to the "The Bull Elephant" as text clearly shows:"Hemmed in, I live unpleasantly and not in ease." (para 1)"Not hemmed in, I live pleasantly and in ease" (para 5)

Mal wrote:

equilibrium wrote:... the mental pain does not exist ...

So there is a contradiction here.

Contradiction only applies to those who read and react to the words without fully understanding the true meaning.The blessed one can "let go" of the mental pain because the blessed one "can" do it.The run-of-the-mill-person "cannot" let go the mental pain because one does not "know" how to.....therefore it clings.

Its not really about the buddha because there is no logical explanation why he would leave a hard situation which is not life threatening problem?

its just to show you that its important to try to have good place to live and practice in and if you think that its not helping your practice to be there (cause its to hard or to easy or to distracting ect ... ) than you should go and not get attached to it

maybe it shows that in some situation even a monastery can be un-beneficial to ones practice and you should allways think whats best for the practice

Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

equilibrium wrote:To prosper is to benefit, the blessed one cannot benefit without the right conditions.....just like everyone else.

But, as he's reached final enlightenment, what else does he need? Surely he has reached the limits of prosperity and needs nothing more? That is, needs no other benefits? Surely for him any conditions are the right conditions? He is not like everyone else!

equilibrium wrote:The blessed one can "let go" of the mental pain because the blessed one "can" do it.The run-of-the-mill-person "cannot" let go the mental pain because one does not "know" how to.....therefore it clings.

Yes I agree with this.

But then why did the Buddha move to the forest? He could let go of the (slight!) mental pain of living in fairly crowded conditions, surely? Even I can do that on a good day

Has he chosen to take on the aspect of a normal person, chosen not to let go of mental pain, to see what it feels like? Like, say, the Christian God coming to Earth to suffer like man in the form of Jesus?

Are there any Suttas that speak of the Buddha dropping his enlightened state of mind to live with the state of mind of normal people? If he's walking around in a state of continuous enlightenment how does he feel the pain of normal people?

Its not really about the buddha because there is no logical explanation why he would leave a hard situation...

Why would the originators of this Sutta be so convoluted as to make the Buddha the main character in the Sutta and then expect us to be sophisticated enough to assume, "it's not really about the Buddha"?

A more reasonable explanation would be that the monks who originated/developed/transmitted this sutta had a very bad day, forgot that the Buddha was enlightened, screwed up the origination/transmission, and we are left with a sutta that just doesn't work!

"There is the case, Nagita, where I see monks laughing out loud, sporting around, tickling one another with their fingers. The thought occurs to me, 'Surely these venerable ones cannot obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — as I do, the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening, which is why they are laughing out loud, sporting around, tickling one another with their fingers.'

The examples progress, showing the benefits and superiority of solitude; so we see that crowds and such prevent practice in key ways. It is only in solitude, in the wilderness, where a suitable environment is found. The Buddha concludes,

"But when I am traveling along a road and see no one in front or behind me, at that time I have my ease, even when urinating & defecating."

It makes perfect sense that the Buddha would speak in the sort of way depicted in Ud 4.5, especially if those monks should have known better and were yet persisting in their socializing.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Mal wrote:But, as he's reached final enlightenment, what else does he need? Surely he has reached the limits of prosperity and needs nothing more? That is, needs no other benefits? Surely for him any conditions are the right conditions? He is not like everyone else!

Yes, the buddha had everything that is important but that is not the point here being illustrated in the story. The exact point is to raise awareness, one must have the right conditions for awareness to exist......It is a "teaching", we are all here to "learn" so we can be "Free".Not all conditions are the right conditions for anyone.....Can one sleep in a large hall full of people disco dancing around with loud music?.....Could the buddha do this?

But then why did the Buddha move to the forest? He could let go of the (slight!) mental pain of living in fairly crowded conditions, surely? Even I can do that on a good day.

Do you mean why the buddha went into solitude?.....again, to achieve the right conditions.....one can try to eliminate what one perceives through their senses but this does not make your job easier but harder.....you can control self but not others.

Has he chosen to take on the aspect of a normal person, chosen not to let go of mental pain, to see what it feels like? Like, say, the Christian God coming to Earth to suffer like man in the form of Jesus?

What is normal? average? then why would the buddha do that? am sure you would be aware that the buddha had already went through this stage already before, to do so would be to dwell into delusion and wrong view.

Are there any Suttas that speak of the Buddha dropping his enlightened state of mind to live with the state of mind of normal people? If he's walking around in a state of continuous enlightenment how does he feel the pain of normal people?

Not sure if there is any but others here may be able to help.....again, to dwell in a lower state of mind is delusion and wrong view.....

Overall, the teaching of the suttas is to be read so one can understand the meanings so one can take appropiate action so to progress along the path.....more importantly, to improve oneself.

So if the Buddha wasn't adopting a lower, human state of mind, how was it, "he lived in discomfort"?

Perhaps the Buddha didn't feel any suffering when "he lived in discomfort"? Perhaps he just "saw the inconvenience to teaching"?

If this analysis is correct, it is interesting that the mind of the Buddha and the mind of the Bull Elephant are "still on the same planet". Both move to the forest, for exactly the same reasons, but the bull elephant is driven by his negative passions, while (I guess) the Buddha goes there because it is the wise thing to do.

It was one of the first suttas I ever read. I had two thoughts "Wohh... if such things are pubished, it must be that there are many who understand the Buddhas teaching as this is hard to take" and "Wohh... there will be not many who understand this", it need some time for me to come over this two thoughts.

Its totaly contrary to the common understanding of what a Buddha is, what the "intentions" of the/a Buddha are and what his possibilities are. Its sometimes good to simply take suttas which are not understandable aside. It is very good to say simply "I am not ready for that yet", much better as to try to put own ideas in it. Such undertaking can close even doors for a longer time.

Its always better to put the message of the teacher higher as the own ideas, that does not mean that one needs to believe simply. When it is not takeable, just put it aside.

Generally there are many points which are not useful to try to understand intellectually, its also not possible to explain them on an intellectual way but later on simply and clear.

Just some maybe "snotty" suggestion.

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Notice that the mind and practice of enlightened ones aren't like those of us worldlings. They do not delight in "socializing". They naturally incline toward the pleasure of renunciation, of seclusion, of peace, and of self-awakening. So, the Buddha just made the natural choice to live in seclusion instead of living with a large crowd. Now although the sutta mentioned "He lived in discomfort and not at ease" but nowhere did it say "He grieves, is depressed and laments; beating his breast, he weeps and dejection befalls him". This clearly indicates that although the Buddha could still experiences the 3 types of Vedana/feelings of pleasant, painful, and neutral(ie. discomfort and not at ease), He certainly transcended all mental fabrications as a result of such feeling(ie. grieves, depressed, laments, beating his breast, etc.). So He just simply does things in a natural way as mentioned in MN 122 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):

"But there is this (mental) dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. If, while he is dwelling there by means of this dwelling, he is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples, then — with his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, having destroyed those qualities that are the basis for mental fermentation — he converses with them only as much as is necessary for them to take their leave."

santa100 wrote: Now although the sutta mentioned "He lived in discomfort and not at ease" but nowhere did it say "He grieves, is depressed and laments; beating his breast, he weeps and dejection befalls him". This clearly indicates that although the Buddha could still experiences the 3 types of Vedana/feelings of pleasant, painful, and neutral(ie. discomfort and not at ease), He certainly transcended all mental fabrications as a result of such feeling(ie. grieves, depressed, laments, beating his breast, etc.). ...

Just saw this sutta, and it might be useful (a interessting confersation with Mara on this topic):

form The Brahma Invitation..."When this was said, I told Mara the Evil One, 'I know you, Evil One. Don't assume, "He doesn't know me." You are Mara, Evil One. And it's not sympathetic to welfare that you speak thus to me. It's sympathetic to what is not welfare that you speak thus to me. You think this, Evil One: "Those to whom Gotama the contemplative will teach the Dhamma will defy my sovereignty. Without being rightly self-awakened, Evil One, your contemplatives & brahmans claimed to be rightly self-awakened. I, however, being rightly self-awakened claim to be rightly self-awakened. For when the Tathagata is teaching the Dhamma to his disciples, he is Such. When he is not teaching the Dhamma to his disciples, he is Such. When leading his disciples he is Such. When not leading his disciples he is Such. Why is that? The fermentations that defile, that lead to further becoming, that disturb, that ripen in stress, that tend to future birth, aging, & death: Those the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, like an uprooted palmyra tree, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Just as a palmyra tree with its crown cut off is incapable of growing again; so, too, the fermentations that defile, that lead to further becoming, that disturb, that ripen in stress, that tend to future birth, aging, & death: Those the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, like an uprooted palmyra tree, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.'"

Also here in add the translation of The Bull Elephant from Rhys Davids:

Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt at Kosambi, in the Ghosita monastery.

. Now at that time the Blessed One was living surrounded by a crowd of monks and nuns, of male and female lay disciples, of kings and their ministers, as well as by heretical sects and their pupils, and he suffered annoyance and discomfort.

And this thought occurred to him : " Surrounded by a crowd of monks and nuns, male and female votaries, of kings and their ministers, as well as by heretical sects and their pupils, I suffer annoyance and discomfort. What if I were to live alone, remote from the crowd ? "

And the Blessed One, robing himself in the forenoon and taking his alms-bowl and robe, entered Kosambi for alms. Having walked about Kosambi for alms, he returned from his rounds and after finishing his meal, he himself put in order his sleeping place, and taking his alms-bowl and robe, and without informing his servitor or giving notice to the Brethren he departed, alone, without a companion, in the direction of Palileyyaka, and wandering from place to place, he reached Palileyyaka, and took up his abode there.

And the Blessed One sojourned in the dense grove Rakkhila, in the vicinity of Palileyyaka, at the foot of the Bhadda Sal tree.

Now a certain noble elephant lived there, who was much worried by a crowd of male and female elephants, young elephants and elephant calves. He had to feed on blades of grass with their tips broken off, and they ate the young branches which he himself had broken down. He had also to drink water that had been polluted and when he plunged (into the water) to cross over, the female elephants rubbed their bodies against him. In consequence of this crowd he was annoyed and lived ill at ease.

And this thought occurred to the noble elephant : " Sur- rounded by a crowd of male elephants, female elephants, young elephants and elephant calves, I have to feed on blades of grass with their tips broken off and they eat the young branches I myself have broken down. I have also to drink water that has been polluted and when I plunge to cross over, the female elephants rub their bodies against me. In consequence of this crowd I am annoyed and live ill at ease. What if I were to live alone, remote from the crowd ? "

And the noble elephant leaving the herd went to the deep groves of Rakkhila in the vicinity of Palileyyaka, to the foot of the Bhadda Sal tree, where the Blessed One was. And when he arrived there, he removed the grass from the spot which the Blessed One occupied, and brought with his trunk drinking water for the Blessed One.

And as the Blessed One was rejoicing in the calm of solitude and isolation this thought arose : " Formerly I lived a life of annoyance and discomfort surrounded by monks and

nuns . . . Now no longer surrounded by monks and nuns ... I live in comfort and at ease."

And in the mind of the noble elephant this thought arose : " Formerly, I lived a life of annoyance and discomfort surrounded by male elephants and female elephants . . . Now no longer surrounded I live in comfort and at ease."

And the Blessed One, with reference to his own solitude, and perceiving what was passing in the mind of that noble elephant, breathed forth this solemn utterance :

" The heart of the noble elephant (with tusks like plough-poles) Is at one with the heart of the Noble One In that alone he delights in the forest."

Just that! *smile*...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

santa100 wrote:Notice that the mind and practice of enlightened ones aren't like those of us worldlings. They do not delight in "socializing". They naturally incline toward the pleasure of renunciation, of seclusion, of peace, and of self-awakening.

But the Bull elephant also retreated to the forest. Many worldlings incline toward renunciation, seclusion, peace, and self-awakening, not just enlightened ones.

santa100 wrote: So, the Buddha just made the natural choice to live in seclusion instead of living with a large crowd. Now although the sutta mentioned "He lived in discomfort and not at ease" but nowhere did it say "He grieves, is depressed and laments; beating his breast, he weeps and dejection befalls him".

Does he feel a bit miffed then? Is it enlightened to feel a bit miffed?

If so, he seems less enlightened than Seneca. In a famous letter Seneca remained living next to a noisy bath house, to test his Stoic resolve. He overcame his discomfort, until he felt at ease there. He didn't retreat to the forest.

santa100 wrote: This clearly indicates that although the Buddha could still experiences the 3 types of Vedana/feelings of pleasant, painful, and neutral(ie. discomfort and not at ease),

Can you justify equating "pain" with "discomfort and not at ease"? I thought the Buddha could use his "superpower mindfulness" to remain totally at ease and comfortable with physical pain? And if he can't do that, where is "the end to suffering" promised by 4NT?

santa100 wrote:"But there is this (mental) dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. If, while he is dwelling there by means of this dwelling, he is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples, then — with his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, having destroyed those qualities that are the basis for mental fermentation — he converses with them only as much as is necessary for them to take their leave."

As it's a *mental* dwelling why does he need to retreat to the forest? Isn't his "mind bent on seclusion" in his mental dwelling? He "converses with them " from that position of mental seclusion, there is nothing to say he moves to the seclusion of the forest. Of course he converses with them "as much as is necessary". But that *isn't* surely because "wants to be alone", like some dumb actress, it would, surely, be that to talk more would be to indulge in gossip - which is never enlightened.

Mal wrote:"But the Bull elephant also retreated to the forest. Many worldlings incline toward renunciation, seclusion, peace, and self-awakening, not just enlightened ones."

And that's a great and helpful attribute toward the path. The big difference is that not only the Buddha "inclines" toward these things, He actually "brought them to fruition", something we wordlings have not done yet. For example, you might incline toward living in seclusion, but have you made up your mind to completely eradicate all defilements and put a complete ending to samsara like He did?

Mal wrote:"Does he feel a bit miffed then? Is it enlightened to feel a bit miffed?If so, he seems less enlightened than Seneca. In a famous letter Seneca remained living next to a noisy bath house, to test his Stoic resolve. He overcame his discomfort, until he felt at ease there. He didn't retreat to the forest."

How do you know for sure if that's the Buddha "himself" who feels a bit miffed, or just the "body" of Him that does? If you cannot nail this down, then it'd be pre-mature to jump to your conclusion like above.

Mal wrote:"Can you justify equating "pain" with "discomfort and not at ease"? I thought the Buddha could use his "superpower mindfulness" to remain totally at ease and comfortable with physical pain? And if he can't do that, where is "the end to suffering" promised by 4NT?"

Again, how can you know for sure that it's the Buddha "himself" who felt this pain? What's wrong with using common language expression, which for sure has much limitation? An enlightened being, by definition, is one who had eradicated all notion of "I", "mine", and "myself", thus there's no "Buddha, Himself" to feel the pain. However, that does not mean his "body" cannot experience a painful feeling.

Mal wrote:"As it's a *mental* dwelling why does he need to retreat to the forest? Isn't his "mind bent on seclusion" in his mental dwelling? He "converses with them " from that position of mental seclusion, there is nothing to say he moves to the seclusion of the forest. Of course he converses with them "as much as is necessary". But that *isn't* surely because "wants to be alone", like some dumb actress, it would, surely, be that to talk more would be to indulge in gossip - which is never enlightened"

That's a natural thing for enlightened one to do. After giving the large crowd what they needed to hear, why does He need to stay with them longer than needed?

santa100 wrote:How do you know for sure if that's the Buddha "himself" who feels a bit miffed, or just the "body" of Him that does?

Are you taking the Buddha to be suffering actual physical discomfort here? Taking "hemmed in by" to mean squashed in the crush of the crowd? I was taking it as a metaphor for purely mental torment - claustrophobia, or feeling frustration at all the gossip and interruptions.

So is the Buddha's *mind* feeling a bit miffed, but the Buddha is not?

Mal wrote:"Are you taking the Buddha to be suffering actual physical discomfort here? Taking "hemmed in by" to mean squashed in the crush of the crowd? I was taking it as a metaphor for purely mental torment - claustrophobia, or feeling frustration at all the gossip and interruptions."

My take has been that the Buddha still experiences inputs from Vedana/feeling. Vedana is typically divided into 3 types: painful, pleasant, and neutral, which can apply to both the mental and physical domains. However, let's be very clear that a painful feeling(mental or physical) is simply an input process that is "felt". How one "reacts" to this signal is a whole separate process. So while you see words like "discomfort" or "un-ease" being used in the sutta, you never see words like "grieves, depressed, laments, weeps, dejection, beating his breast" being applied to the Buddha because those are the "reactive" agents which He's completedly transcended. From that, words like "claustrophobia" or "frustration" certainly do not apply to the case of the Buddha.

Mal wrote:"So is the Buddha's *mind* feeling a bit miffed, but the Buddha is not?"

It sounds like a logical observation. But just to be more precise, I'd say it's an unpleasant vedana input process that has been experienced by the Aggregates of a temporarily labeled entity called Buddha... If "I", "mine", and "myself" have been completely transcended, where can one possibly find a Buddha "himself" to feel a bit miffed!