Monday, December 24, 2007

Experts Predict Arizona "OUT OF BUSINESS!"

A quick glance at the masons who work for Rhino Masonry in Mesa reveals an interesting quirk about the company's work force - nearly every block layer on the payroll is Hispanic. Business owner Robert Ahlers said he's comfortable with his company's demographics. It simply reflects those of the region's construction industry in general, he said. However, he has no idea what impact the state's stringent new employer sanctions law will have on his company next month. "I don't know if come Jan. 1, when this goes into effect, I'm going to wake up on a Monday morning and half the people working for me are going to be gone," Ahlers said.

Hispanic workers elsewhere have been walking off their jobs in anticipation of the Legal Arizona Workers Act taking effect New Year's Day. The law is intended to change the way Arizona companies conduct business. Specifically, it's intended to prompt business owners to purge illegal immigrants from their payrolls. Businesses knowingly employing illegal immigrants face corporate death penalties. The first offense can result in a 10-day suspension of a company's business license. The second offense can mean loss of the business license altogether. The law is widely viewed as the toughest of more than 100 passed by states and municipalities nationwide since the summer to crack down on illegal immigration.

...

Business owners are changing the way they hire, moving to an electronic, federal system called E-Verify, which checks job applicants' Social Security numbers to confirm their employment eligibility. Also, an uncounted number of illegal immigrants living and working in Arizona are moving to other states or back to Mexico to avoid detection, according to Hispanic community leaders.

However, the law also is causing Arizona is lose its appeal among business investors, according to business leaders. Arizona clearly is dependent on immigrant labor. Of the state's nearly 2.5 million workers, close to 300,000 are not U.S. citizens, according to a University of Arizona study released in October. That equates to more than 10 percent of the total work force.

Ahlers is worried about maintaining his own work force at Rhino Masonry, 722 W. McLellan Road in Mesa. The company typically employs between 50 to 100 at between $15 to $25 an hour, plus benefits. Ahlers always has been careful to check documents for new hires, and believes every employee on his payroll is eligible to work in the United States. Still, the new employer sanctions law is forcing him to act like an immigration agent, he said. "It's making me mad, because I object to having to do someone else's job for them," he said. "The federal government has failed miserably to do their job - or we wouldn't have a bunch of illegals wandering around our country. "Now our government says, 'Look employers, you've got to fix it because we can't. You've got to do extra work. You've got to do things. If you don't do it, we're going to fine you or put you out of business,'" Ahlers said.

GRAY AREAS IN LAWThere's widespread misunderstanding among business operators over the new law, said labor attorney Julie A. Pace, who has lectured at more than 50 seminars about the topic since July. "Some have been paying attention and some understand different things about the law. I think many feel it's unconstitutional and are waiting for the court to rule. Others are not familiar with it at all," she said. To make matters worse, the law is filled with ambiguities and is subject to different interpretations, said Pace, of the Phoenix law firm Ballard Spahr Andrews & Ingersoll. For example, no one has ruled definitively how the law will be applied to franchised businesses. If violations are discovered at a single location of a statewide chain of gas stations, restaurants, banks or department stores, does that mean every outlet statewide will be shut down, leading to hundreds of layoffs? Pace is operating under the legal assumption the entire chain can be closed. "Everybody loses their jobs," she said. With that in mind, business owners statewide are rushing to restructure their business operations, making each location a separate corporate entity. Also, some business owners are postponing Arizona expansion plans while waiting to see how the law will be enforced. "A lot of clients of ours have already moved their operations out of state for any expansion," Pace said. "They're not going to open any businesses here."

TROUBLE ON THE FARMThe law already is cutting into Arizona's agricultural industry, which employs the state's highest percentage of noncitizen workers. "We already were having problems getting workers," said Joe Sigg, director of government relations for the Arizona Farm Bureau Federation, a nonprofit association of 3,000 agriculture-related businesses. The impact is twofold: Immigrant workers without documentation are leaving to avoid deportation, and immigrant workers with documentation are relocating because they fear discrimination.

Consumers nationwide could see the impact as early as next month. Nearly all of the country's supply of iceberg lettuce from November through March is grown in and around Yuma, just north of the U.S.-Mexico border. The harvest requires 50,000 laborers a day, but farm owners are uncertain whether enough workers will be available to pick the lettuce before it rots in the fields, Sigg said. "The law, in our view, has lost proportionality to the problem," he said. "There is no question that immigration - legal and illegal - causes a host of problems. But the economic side of this is: How do you unplug a work force that you can't possibly replace?" he asked.

Farmers also are encountering new difficulties in securing business loans, because lenders recognize they may not be able to bring their crops to market. Private sector investors similarly are holding back, Sigg said. The law is certain to cause the entire state's economy to slow, said Ann Seiden, spokeswoman for the Arizona Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

KEEPING UP WITH GROWTH"Our rap over the past several years has been growth - this population has been booming, our economy has been doing well. Granted, there are some other factors that have caused our economy to backslide a little, but we think this is going to further that," she said. The now-slumping housing industry is closely tied to the immigrant labor pool. Approximately 22 percent of all construction trade workers are noncitizens, according to the UA study. Noncitizens account for 56 percent of plasterers and stucco masons, 41 percent of roofers, and 38 percent of drywall and ceiling installers. Plus, naturalized U.S. citizens account for an additional 6 percent of plasterers, 7 percent of roofers and 8 percent of drywall installers. The only question is how much impact the law will have on the state's economy, Seiden said. Economic development officials are hearing business owners are reluctant to move into or expand in Arizona while business licenses remain at stake, she said. "When you're going to invest in something, you pretty much want to invest in a sure thing. Uncertainty doesn't lend itself to that kind of positive investment and growth," she said.

One certainty is that the law will be enforced, said Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas. Employer sanctions are an important component of halting the "border crisis," and sheriff's deputies and county prosecutors are prepared to launch investigations next year, he said. "These are complex investigations. I would compare them to white-collar cases, fraud cases. These are not your simple cut-and-dried robbery or burglary cases," he said. The first cases are likely to take months to get to court. And while prosecutors have had months to develop a strategy on how to pursue their first cases, which are certain to attract national attention, they haven't done so, Thomas said. He dismissed the idea prosecutors have weighed whether to first go against a corner taco shop or similar small business in a quest for quick legal victory, or to first move against a larger and wealthier enterprise to score a strong victory. "We have no preconceptions about that. We're going to wait to see what kind of evidence and information we have," Thomas said. "The resources of the company will have no bearing on our decision."

119 comments:

Liquidmicro
said...

Everything you have argued on this headline is benefiting the employer/business/corporation. You have done nothing at all, other than allowed the 'Illegal' to maintain his job with no penalty to anybody.

From the Borjas Blog:

DEE

If the elites are given a choice between legalizing the 12 million or encouraging self deportation by the 12 million, the elites will choose legalization.

Make no mistake, Dee, Almost NONE of the elite want to see deportation. When you Dee argue against deportation you are arguing the side of the elites.

Read what Dr Borjas has shown in his research - massive self deportation means higher wages for the unskilled US citizens.

It also means that the elites of the US suffer

Dee, show a little honesty. 80% of the senators, 80% of the congressmen, 80% of the big money donors to the democrats and the republicans ALL agree with you strongly when you say NO to deportation.

Show some honesty

Posted by: pj

Dee

you are 100% correct.

However, I hold you personally responsible.

Your words and actions encourage the undocumented to move to the USA and serve the big corporations and Bush by accepting slave wages.

You could instead tell all the undocumented to get the heck out of the USA and go back to Mexico. That would really stick it to the big corporations and to Bush.

That's why i hold you responsible. Anyone in Mexico reading your posts is more likely to move to the USA

Posted by: myles

A very good Mexican political scientist, Fredo Arias-King, wrote a essay on American political elites and immigration. It is well worth reading. He describes in detail the inappropriate relationship between American politicians and the Mexican political/economic class.

See "Immigration and Usurpation Elites, Power, and the People’s Will" (http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back706.pdf).

Posted by: Peter Schaeffer

etc.....

There are an unlimited supply of H-2A visas, it only takes the farmers will to get the visas, but he would rather only pay $9 and change to the worker, instead of the $17 - $20 it would cost him with the visa. Thats @ workers for the price of one = MORE PROFIT.

Penalize the employers, force them to obtain the visas = NO MORE EXPLOITATION of workers, and no more 'Illegals' as they would now be here on a work visa. WIN-WIN all around for the now 'Illegal' and the American Citizen.

Also Liquid, No Fair!You are quoting some of the lame responses from the other side and not posting what I said. PJ and Myles are dweebish. No logical arguments and false accusations. Peter is very good and he and I discuss-chat.

I don't see anything overly strick by our Federal government mandating that employers verify that every employee on their payroll has the right to work in this country. The system was already in place but wasn't enforced.

You keep claiming you want the employers sanctioned and punished and yet when the Federal government takes steps to do so by making them tow the line, you do an about face and complain. Me thinks you speak with forked tongue, dee.

Theres that numerical order thing again Dee, instead of 1, 2, 3, your numbered list should actually be 1. Secure Borders3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows into some legal status. (eg.Guest Worker)2. Employer Sanctions

"Once 3 is enacted, most of the employees here will be in legal status. The employers will be sanctioned to all FUTURE illegal immigration hiring."

Future is the key word here, so legalize the 'Illegals' and wipe out all previous violations by both the 'Illegal' and the employer. Dee, wants to let everybody off the hook, and only apply it, like the '86 AMNESTY, promising to enforce the law afterwards. Employers are the ones to provide "guest Worker" status, the problem is they do not want to pay the wages, nor the expenses, for employing them, its not profitable then. Not going to happen this time around. Employers MUST be penalized, and what ever effect this has on the 'Illegals', then so be it.

What he is recommending is already happening. Example: The Venga a Michigan program invites anyone, everyone to come to the Cherry fields, live in migrant housing (free) and pick Cherries. This is the same for any of their AgJobs. This is true for citizens or non citizens. the SAME! as long as they are willing to work.

dee, your claim of stance 1 and 2 has never jived with your constant complaints when steps are taken to secure the border or to sanction the employers with raids and the part of the SAVE ACT that will require employers to verify their employees legitamacy.

A more honest statement from you would be: 1. Secure the borders just as long as we leave enough holes in it for more illegals to get through by denying the need for a fence. 2. Employer sanctions just as long as it doesn't include raids, deporting illegals or self-deporting them. 3. No surprise here. Reward illegals with legitamacy whether or not we need them. You should add a number 4 to your list. 4. Nothing should be done that stops the flow of illegal Mexicans/Hispanics that puts a crimp in the hastening of the Hispanicization of America.

You see the devil is in the details that you always leave out, dee. They can't be taken at face value. When elaborated on they add whole new meanings to your numbers 1-3.

liquid, actually what dee wants is:1. Give the 12 million legal status. 2. Secure borders but only enough to make sure at least some more make it through. 3. Sanction employers for any new illegal hires but don't penalize the illegal employee. Give them legal status also.

Actually Pat, it is more in sequencing, like Liquid said. And it is not letting people off the hook. It is drawing a line in the sand. From this day forward, all employers will go to jail or out of business. Borders closed. Period.

Dee says: From this day forward, all employers will go to jail or out of business. Borders closed. Period.

Like I said Dee wants to do: Legalize the 'Illegals' and wipe out all previous violations by both the 'Illegal' and the employer. Dee, wants to let everybody off the hook, and only apply it, like the '86 AMNESTY, promising to enforce the law afterwards. Employers are the ones to provide "guest Worker" status, the problem is they do not want to pay the wages, nor the expenses, for employing them, its not profitable then.

Not going to happen this time around. Employers MUST be penalized, and what ever effect this has on the 'Illegals', then so be it.

Sure thing dee. And the minute we find we have more illegals entering after the line in the sand is drawn because you and yours didn't want the fence, you will be championing the same old cause for the new illegals.

Dianne,This is the dilemma.What to do about the 12M here.Knowing our own history, knowing the sheer number 12M - 20M, as large as the state of NY, do we mass deport, even over 4 years? What of those that have been hear 5 - 20 years? What of those 40% that overstayed their visas? What of those from countries seeking sanctuary and have no where to return to?

Let them apply for Asylum, then it would be up to the courts to decide. Employers can apply for guest workers if needed, some are repatriating on their own. No need for MASS DEPORTATION, keep cracking down the way we are, things will work out for themselves, Enforcement through Attrition.

For those seeking sanctuary as currently defined under the law, there should be no problem if they apply.

The strongest magnets to this country are the jobs and benefits. The article spoke of Rhino Masonry with jobs $15-25/hr plus benefits. I'm sorry, Dee. I don't believe for one minute there aren't American citizens willing to do that work for that amount of money. $25/hr without benefits is over $50,000 per year! Those jobs should only go to American citizens. My son-in-law out of college barely makes over that. Even at $15/hr, that's over $31,000, a respectable wage for lots of American people. Teachers start out at that wage.

As for the agricultural workers, I agree with the previous comments on the ag worker visas. Employers need to get them. If the requirements are too tough, then lessen them to be more in line with reality.

For all others, I don't know. Part of me says if enforcement against employers is effective, then the problem will take care of itself through attrition. For people here over 10 years, I know that seems harsh. Maybe there is something that can be done as guest workers in those instances but I think they need to go back to their home countries first, if even only for the time it takes to fully process green card applications.

None of this is easy. The problem got too far out of control. If we don't fix it this time, it will only get worse.

AgJobs = NoWe need the migrant laborerers desperately or outsource the farms to their countries.

Construction Jobs = Yes we should be able to staff with Americans.

However, I am curious about how true this is for the construction jobs. Back when we were young this was true but what is it about our young people that they prefer to work at a computer or in the service industry vs manual labor? It is not like when my husband was a young man or back in my father´s day. Nowadays however, I don´t know if this is true.

How long will it take for the 12 - 20M to self attrit? There has been significant reduction in the numbers of new arrivals of illegal immigrants. ICE tells us it is just a trickle. Some are self attriting. However the overall numbers are growing.

For the number the size of NY to self attrit, it would take 50 years or more. We cannot live with illegal immigration until then. We have to draw a line somewhere and say no more illegal. Make those here 5+ years legal, less, leave. Make it within 2 years. Then let´s be finished. No more illegal status. end. over. fini. No more exploitation of workers. We have to end it in a way that does not devastate our economy or hurt people.

Self-attrit may not be the complete answer but it is certainly a beginning and maybe even a pathway to compromise. A significant reduction in the number of illegals will make everyone more amenable to a solution short of total deportation. As I have posted before, if it comes to this, it has been shown that as many 9 million can be repatriated in as little as 6 - 9 months: witness the expulsion of ethnic Germans from the eastern territories following the close of WW II. I do not support such mass deportations but, make no mistake about it, it is logistically feasible. Basically, we just need to send the message that illegals are not welcome and must return to their homelands with their minor children.

"AgJobs = NoWe need the migrant laborers desperately or outsource the farms to their countries."

I agree with you on this. The question is: what should be the details of our policy in this regard?How long can they stay before they must return? Should employers provide transportation? What about pregnant women?

"We cannot live with illegal immigration until then. We have to draw a line somewhere and say no more illegal. Make those here 5+ years legal, less, leave. Make it within 2 years. Then let´s be finished. No more illegal status. end. over. fini. No more exploitation of workers. We have to end it in a way that does not devastate our economy or hurt people.

December 25, 2007 2:20 PM"

I think this may be negotiable. How do Ag workers fit into this picture?

"If someone really wanted to know, this could be tested experimentally but it would have to be done pretty much all across the country simultaneously. Dump the illegals and raise the wages and benefits every week until the jobs are filled or labor vs. jobs reaches equilibrium. Chances of this happening? -- probably two, zero and none.

I believe a compromise is possible. A compromise that brings most people of good will together.

Let me start out by saying that La Raza wants to flood the US with Spanish speaking folks by any means. There is no way they will agree to a compromise.

Let me also say that the white racists want no immigration of people that are not anglo. The white racists will not be satisfied with any compromise.

However most people here i think are in the reasonable middle.

Dee has called for legalization of all the undocumented folks who can prove they have been in the USA for more than five years.

I personally believe that this sort of legalization WOULD be accepted by the great mass of Americans if they trusted that the there would be no fraud (people who claim to have been here for more than five years that really weren't) and if they were certain that there would be no more illegal immigration going forward.

What is needed in order to resolve this is more trust on all sides.

I do not have the answer but I want to steer the discussion in the right direction.

What could be implemented in order to give the great mass of antis 100% conviction that they won't be stabbed in the back like they were in 1986?

Let me float the idea of a national ID card - one that incorporates fingerprint and photo and retina scan, a card that is impossible to fake?

Again, i don't have all the answers, but i feel it is important for all of us, pro and anti, to recognize that some sort of compromise is coming and to come up with a method of enforcing that compromise.

Again, i want to stress that as of right now, I personally won't agree to any compromise since I believe the day after a compromise that La Raza will seek to sneak many more new illegals in to the USA.

(5) employers who hire those without ID cards going to jail and serving hard time

I do not claim that the above is a perfect solution, i do not even claim it is a good solution but i put it on the table to steer this discussion in a productive direction.

In my humble opinion, the momentum is with the antis. If someone is a hard core anti, it may be smart for them to piss on my ideas and just hold out for something better. If the antis wait longer they may get a better deal than they can get today.

However, i would say that the human suffering going on right now, the suffering that will happen until a final compromise is implemented, should lead people with humanitarian instincts to start talking about a compromise now

I am not a moron, i know that La Raza will reject my ideas and i know that the white anglo racists will also reject my ideas - i am looking for a place where reasonable humanitarian folks can come together

To demonstrate the potential economic effects of state immigration laws, the chamber sponsored a study focusing on five states -- Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Oklahoma and Pennsylvania. Most immigration-related laws at the state level have been enacted within the past 18 months, the report noted, so it is too early to fully measure their impact. The Illinois and Arizona laws do not take effect until January 1, 2008.

I agree with this new law and the comments of federal Judge Neil Wake, who said any delay in implementing the law which allows suspension or revocation of state licenses of companies that knowingly hire undocumented workers would harm the state and, in particular, legal Arizona residents.

"Those who suffer the most from unauthorized alien labor are those whom federal and Arizona law most explicitly protect,'' Wake said. "They are the competing lawful workers, many unskilled, low-wage, sometimes near or under the margin of poverty, who strain in individual competition and in a wage economy depressed by the great and expanding number of people who will work for less,'' the judge continued.

It's against the law for employers to knowingly hire illegalaliens. It's REASONABLE to expect employers to verify social security numbers of employees.

The only employees walking off their jobs, are illegal aliens and they SHOULD be denied employment, since it is against the law.

I want the federal version of this law passed. Call your elected representatives and ask them to co-sponsor the SAVE Act. The House bill HR4088 already has 131 co-sponsors, but needs more. The Senate version S2368 has only three.

Illegal aliens do not have a legal standing to question a state or federal law. Employers should do all that is possible to comply with the laws of AZ and the nation. It's their civic responsibility.

Help take our country back. Support the AZ Sanctions Law and ask your U.S. Congressmen to co-sponsor the SAVE Act.

I totally agree. The SAVE ACT needs to pass. It may not be perfect, (as some like to point out in here) but the bottom line of it which is to mandate that employers verify their employees SS numbers is what we need so desperately to happen. Let us not throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak with this bill.

Anon: these two ideas are the crux of the problem "(1) legal status for all undocumented who have been in the us for more than XXX years who have been employed

(2) end to birthright citizenship"

Pro-legals largely favor (2)but this probably requires a constitutional amendment which will be increasingly difficult to obtain. One also has to think carefully about those many children of illegals who have been in this country for their entire lives and now may be adults and in the work force. This is the old argument of not penalizing the children for their parents' illegality. While this may draw some sympathy from some quarters, I believe in a "get tough" attitude because it is the only thing that will work. Of course, to the extent that we can nip it in the bud for new illegals this problem would be much less.

Your idea (1) is a difficult one but as you suggest a solution is possible only with some compromise on this issue. But before we begin to grant amnesty to any of these folks we need to make sure the border is sealed and measures in place to detect, apprehend, detain and deport all who arrive after the effective date of any new law. We also need some provision for ag workers. I favor a definite temporary employment contract in that case where workers must return to their homelands every six months or when the harvest is in, and sooner for pregnant women. I would want a ag worker program designed to assure that none of these folks are allowed to stay permanently and that everything possible is done to make sure they do not produce any birthright children. They must be thought of as a source of temporary foreign labor and that is all.

The others who have been here more than xxx years need to be sorted out by the immigration judge/appeal process. Those in this category who have demonstrated social integration, cultural and linguistic assimilation should be favorably considered. Those who have not should be expeditiously deported. Although many adults will not be able to become truly fluent in English, most can learn enough to get along. We need community-based free English courses. Those who take these courses should be able to qualify under the linguistic assimilation rule. Those who do not should be deported forthwith.

"Pat, My stance is always the same.1. Secure Borders2. Employer Sanctions3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows into some legal status. (eg.Guest Worker)"

As Pat pointed out, this is a major oversimplification of the problem.

What measures will be used to secure the border and what will be the criteria for judging when the border is secure? Although most would agree that it is not possible to actually seal the border, that should be the objective and we should measure on a daily basis how close we are to achieving that goal. I am, of course, a believer in deportation of a significant number of illegals to further illustrate that we are serious about border security. If everyone who is already here is allowed to stay,that will send the wrong message and compound the problem at the border.

2. Employer sanctions are not possible until there is a mechanism for identifying those who employ illegals--raids and mismatch letters are the best way to do this along with a provision that makes granting sanctuary a crime.

3. Dealing with the 12-20 million is the largest problem. We cannot afford to grant blanket amnesty and still expect our borders to be secure. Blanket amnesty sends the wrong message. I have been constant in my recommendations that we register all aliens and deport all those who are subsequently detected who have not registered. I would require registration at the nearest post office every six months and whenever they change address.

Those who have registered will be subjected to a systematic immigration and appeal process. Initially the standards for an ID will be very high so that we can accomplish the objective of sending a message to others who are here or who might be considering violating the border. This would be the beginning of a process to sort out those who deserve to stay and work and those who do not.

I have constantly stated the need for evidence of social integration and cultural and linguistic assimilation. This evidence could include testimonials from co-workers, neighbors and community leaders, preferably not of the same ethnicity as the applicant. Although evidence from the clergy can be considered, it may be biased by humanitarian and religious considerations rather than objective criteria.

Note that allowing any illegals to stay is a very large compromise which is contrary to the wishes of extremists.

To move forward then, we need to see that the SAVE bills is passed,that mismatch letters are made a matter of law, and that employer sanctions are spelled out in some detail. We need to build the fence and other infrastructure at the border. We need to deport most of those guilty of SSN mismatch and multiple use violations, quickly and expeditiously.

The test of whether someone is really serious about border security is their willingness to provide the tools necessary to secure the borders. Otherwise, they cannot be taken seriously.

however a compromise can only happen when the majority of antis believe that such a compromise will be enforced

no matter what side you are on, pro or anti, if you want a compromise you need to work towards some enforcement mechanism

in the absence of an enforcement mechanism, the antis won't agree to a compromise

i suspect that many pros and antis - people who are on opposite sides of the immigration issue - find themselves on the same side of many other debates. perhaps by building bonds on issues that we have in common we can establish a framework for solving the immigration problem

let's talk about the issue of a national ID card with retina scan and fingerprint

on many levels, this is terrifying. Neither pros nor antis are inclined to trust the us government - for all sorts of valid reasons

another idea is to have the national id card run by a corporation - i think neither pros nor antis trust the corporations either

here is the quandry - no solution to our immigration problem is possible without some sort of fool proof cheat proof system. How do we implement it?

Let me say again - it doesn't matter whether you are a pro or an anti - IF you want a compromise, we need a perfect system for knowing who is here legally and who is here illegally

i don't have the answers, but i think we should launch this discussion - - the broad issue is - how can we enforce a compromise in such a way as to build confidence on both sides -

Liquid,As I predicted, it does look like a group is closely monitoring locations-states that enact strict enforcement laws to report on the impacts to the local economies. This is exactly what needs to be done. This way we will know and understand the impacts if these laws are implemented in other locations-states

I encourage all readers to read the Gestapo Act blog I posted or read the SAVE Act itself. There are several aspects to this proposed bill that will negatively impact our country, including have contractors (e.g. Blackwater) patrol our borders and have unmanned aircraft patrol our cities. All of the potential for racial profiling will have negative impacts and more $$ for the Crony contractors and Crony owners of the private prison detention centers.

We need to study the impacts of the laws in AZ, OK, IL to determine what the impacts would be of the SAVE Act nationally.

dee, so we should study whether or not businesses operating in this country illegally have been good or bad for our country? Something just doesn't set right with me on this. We are a nation of laws. Why should we under any circumstances or outcomes even be questioning or studying immoral and illegal behavior rather than just doing the right thing no matter what the outcome is? It is similar to eliminating one of the ten commandments just because it has been broken with impunity.

There is more good than bad in the SAVE ACT. Just as I asked before, why throw the baby out with the bath water? The major part of it is making employers check the legal status of their workers and potential workers. All other objections to the other parts of it is just smoke and mirrors because the pro's don't want the employers to do their jobs and therefore prevent illegals from keeping and getting jobs in this country illegally.

I wrote several blogs detailing the problems with the so called SAVE Act. I ask readers to reference them, starting with the Gestapo blog.

Second, I think it is important for us to monitor what is happening in Oklahoma and in Arizona with their strict enforcement laws. AZ doesn´t take effect until 1/1 so we need to give it time. Oklahoma enacted theirs in November and there are already several issues including impact on citizens.

As Liquid noted, there are groups closing monitoring and reporting on the impacts. We need to study the results as they come out.

One thing that really irritates me is this racism accusation by the pros. It only makes me and those who oppose amnesty angry and more anti than ever. The fact is the largest group of illegal immigrants happen to be from Latin America and many of them have brown skin but there are plenty of illegal immigrants of other skin colors, including white and everybody knows it. If those who cry racism want to fan the fires even higher than they already are, keep it up and that's exactly what will happen.

Game Over,What is clear is you have not studied the history of immigration and migration to our great USA. I can provide you a few reference links or look up the Immigration Act of 1924 in wikipedia. That is a good place to start.

Your argument of the Canadians, Dee, is still the fact that our government is not and has not truly enforced our immigration laws. It is not the fault of the American Citizens. Donahue's comments to Matthews was about the state of New Hampshire and their Ideals, not those of most ANTI's.If you wish to point fingers, point them to just the ones of the state of New Hampshire. Most ANTI's are for equal opportunity repatriation/deportation of all non-legal immigrants.

Liquid,I know you, personally, you, and people like Dianne and Ulty, do not think of this as a race issue. However, there are many ANTIs that do. (based on the blogs, I would say the majority and you are in the minority)

As you know, in order to keep myself informed, I frequently read current Immigration blogs. I saw this one referenced on a few ANTI sites. Read it and what it says about M&Ms.

"Today's M&M influx (Moslems and Mexicans) is distinguished from previous immigrant waves by a SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT. A Zogby poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans believe California and the Southwest rightly belong to them."

Now you know where the reconquista theories come from and how they are truly one of the worries of the ANTI's. I don't see to much wrong with the opinion of Mr. Duke. It seems to be pretty factual for the most part to me.

I agree liquid, facts as in the M&M article are not racism. dee is wrong as usual by implying that most Amercans opposed to illegal immigration are racists. She hangs around a bunch of radical forums and blogs and tries to claim that they represent the majority of anit's and it isn't true. I have read a lot of anti blogs and forums myself and even within those there are only a few who are radicals. Most of them are just frustrated with illegal immigration, stick to the facts and do not make racist remarks. That is just the way that dee and her fellow illegal alien sympathizers like to interpret it because of their agenda. dee often reads into things that aren't really there which is obvious in her blog here.

The "Elites", since you seem to have the same misunderstanding on the Borjas Blog, are the Corporations/Big Businesses lobbying Congress for cheap labor. They are the Congressman that have given in to the desires of Corporation/Big Business, all in the name of a global economy = more money for the rich, while the middle and lower classes stagnate and/or decline, turning all into slave labor. You side with them when you want Amnesty for the 'Illegals'. The only one here still calling you Mexican or Mexican-American is yourself. Your minority crying and whinnying does nothing for you, you are convoluted in your rational of discriminating yourself with 'Illegal Hispanics/Latinos/Mexicans', your own word play has confused, "yourself".

All American Citizens are equal, you just confuse yourself with those that are not American Citizens. This is by your own doing and your own choice.

If you think Alan Stang is a RACIST, then you do not read him nor do you understand his Equal Opportunity Government bashing. He is actually , if I am not mistaken, an Equal Opportunity Offender, an Independent, not Dem. or Repub., a Constitutionist.

Well good! Dee came right out shooting with both barrels with her race card. If we had made the same statements about Hispanics you would have had a fit. Talk about racism and hypocricy! It's all right there in dee's post. Now we know where she stands on the white race for sure. She hates anglos! There will never be a doubt in my mind from now on.

Anon,My father came to Michigan as a troquero. He was hired by the state of Michigan to truck up migrant workers (similar to the Bracero Program). He also served as their interpretor. He brought up his family to work in the fields. He also worked as a migrant. Afterwards, he stayed in Michigan as many of the migrants did to work in the auto factories. Every summer until I was 12, my mother brought all the children to work in the cherry fields in northern Michigan. We worked every summer.My father knew many of the farmers. He chose a very good farm for us. The living quarters were clean. The farmer paid a fair price. These were much better conditions than many of the other farms.We were paid 50 cents a lug. It took two full (back breaking) pails to fill a lug.

dee, don't try to back peddle now. You implied that all whites are racist and feel superior to other races. You implied that all whites look at Hispanic Americans and call them Mexicans, inferring that they aren't American rather than just how I get referred to as being German sometimes just because I am from German ancestry. Get off the victim wagon. You are allowing your bleeding heart for Mexican illegals to pour over to become sympathy for yourself and other Hispanic Americans just as liquid stated. Your statements were blatantly racist against white Americans. No turning back now the rope around your neck has already suffocated you.

In the link I provided, the author refers to M&M - the influx of Moslems and Mexicans. He said the M&Ms are 3rd worlders and "destruction of the western civilization that has given us everything we hold dear, from our freedom to our prosperity, not for reasons of race, but because of circumstances at least partly created by Americans ourselves."

As the author (in the link I provided) puts all previous immigrants on a pedestal "this lies in contrast to yesteryear´s immigrants" he forgets that many American Hispanics, like my family, helped build our great USA and have been here for centuries. We were here when his ancestors arrived. My father, his and his and my ancestors provided the manpower as our nation was built.

If you start to understand the true nature of the quagmire of immigration, you might begin to understand and agree with what Dobbs has been saying, and understand what the difference is between "elites" and the working class.

As the author (in the link I provided) puts all previous immigrants on a pedestal "this lies in contrast to yesteryear´s immigrants" he forgets that many American Hispanics, like my family, helped build our great USA and have been here for centuries. We were here when his ancestors arrived. My father, his and his and my ancestors provided the manpower as our nation was built.

This is what people like him forget.

Here you do it again, Dee, you equate yourself to that of an immigrant instead of calling yourself a citizen. This is what people like you do, in trying to twist and distort the conversation in order to lessen the rhetoric, you make it personal.

Your family ancestors happened to be on this side of the border when Texas became a Republic and then joined the USA in 1845. Where was your family in 1620?? What about all the country building east of the Mississippi prior to 1845?

If I'm not mistaken, your fathers ancestors are Spanish, that would mean the are European, just like mine. Your Mother was Mexican, unknown ancestry as you have never stated if she too was of Spanish decent or if she was of indigenous decent. Which then makes you no different then any of us in here. You keep segregating yourself and claiming yourself with 'illegal immigrants' by your own choice. Say it with me Dee, I am not an 'Illegal Immigrant' I am an American Citizen. Keep repeating the American Citizen part until it sticks. Maybe then you won't confuse yourself ethnicitly.

Liquid,There you go making things up again.Read my BIO. I am an American.It is your side that calls me otherwise.I study the History of our country.Your side chooses to believe in some made up Mayberrian society made up of Northern European immigrants. I choose History and Facts. Your side makes things up.

It would seem to me that your fathers ancestors came and did the same as what you say my ancestors have done. Again NO DIFFERENCE. Your family is no different then mine, other than mine began building this nation east of the Mississippi prior to yours starting in Texas in the 1800's. Yours just played catchup to what mine had already accomplished. :-}~

Liquid,Here is an article for you.You pretend there is no racism in America. Please take off your rose colored glasses and understand it is still here in America.

"The heaviest burdens of racism in the country have fallen upon Native Americans, Asian Americans, African Americans, Latin Americans and some other immigrant groups and their descendants. Racist attitudes, or prejudice, are still held by substantial portions of the population."

Don't try to twist my words again, dee. I wasn't suggesting that I lynch you or your family and the fact that they have been here for some time means no more than any other family being here for whatever time.

You hung yourself by your own racist remarks about whites. You didn't need my help our anyone elses. The issue has nothing to do with Hispanic citizens anyway. It has to do with illegal aliens.

I haven't denounced racism as non-existent. Racism is rampant in each race. You have tried to portray 2 different links you have provided as 'Racist' to include the topic of this conversation. Non of which are 'racist' pieces. If you are trying to make us all "Guilty by Association" again, it won't work.

Liquid,You more than most should understand since we discuss this frequently.

Big Business and the Administration, those you call Elites, do not want CIR. That is what the discussion here and on Borjas has been about. They want status quo so they can continue to exploit workers.

I refuse to call them Elites. Elites are not only Big Business and the Administration, they are also the likes of Tancredo, Dobbs, Ron Paul and anyone who pushes their agenda for power.

Geez, dee you are pathetic. The lynching thing was not meant to be taken literally and you know it. I never said anything about doing any lynching literally or figurativelly. I said you had hung yourself by your racist statements about whites. All of a sudden you even drag your family into it some kind of lynching scenario. It is times like this that you really make me question your honesty and your sanity.

1. There is a degree of Racism inherent in the overall Immigration discussion2. Many (KKK, NSM, Skinheads, many MMs like Simcox, Schwilk, and Gilchrist, etc) on the ANTI side maintain an extremely Racist Agenda

"recent increases in illegal Hispanic immigration have spurred anti-Latino sentiment, particularly in areas of the United States that have previously seen few Hispanic immigrants." [original research?]

From WIKI about your paragraph above, and what you forgot to place at the end of your quote.[original research?].

Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments.

As I said Liquid,There are two issues regarding Race which I have discussed:

1. There is a degree of Racism inherent in the overall Immigration discussion2. Many (KKK, NSM, Skinheads, many MMs like Simcox, Schwilk, and Gilchrist, etc) on the ANTI side maintain an extremely Racist Agenda

1. There is a degree of Racism inherent in the overall Immigration discussion 2. Many (KKK, NSM, Skinheads, many MMs like Simcox, Schwilk, and Gilchrist, etc) on the ANTI side maintain an extremely Racist Agenda.

To answer in order.1. There is a perceived degree of racism by the PRO side attributed to the ANTI's.2. Many (Mexica-Movment, Chicono Professors, MeCHA, NCLR, etc. maintain an extremely RACIST agenda.

This works both ways, and if you keep referring back to it, you will never look forward to the answer. Argue the topics with an open mind to learning and understanding, maybe then the rhetoric and looking backwards will go away.

Dee quotes:"The heaviest burdens of racism in the country have fallen upon Native Americans, Asian Americans, African Americans, Latin Americans and some other immigrant groups and their descendants. Racist attitudes, or prejudice, are still held by substantial portions of the population."

But she didn't complete the paragraph.

Racist attitudes, or prejudice, are still held by substantial portions of the population. Members of every American ethnic group have perceived racism in their dealings with other groups.[1][2] (The missing end to her quote above)

I find this quite interesting and relates back to exactly what I argued, quit trying to achieve what you wish to be as an outcome, try being and debating HONESTLY, as I do go and check your quotes and references.

Dee says:Big Business and the Administration, those you call Elites, do not want CIR.

OOOOHHHHH, RRRRREEEEEAAAALLLYYYYYYYYYY.

Obviously you don't know which Corporate conglomerates back the likes of NCLR, MeCHA and various other PRO groups that were wanting CIR to pass. Do some research as to who puts monies into the pockets of these groups.

For someone so learned of the immigration battle, you surely lack in some of the basic knowledge.

I understand your perspective, Dee. I said the other day, "Your heart s in the right place", we all have some sort of digress about the plight of the 'Illegals'. Some are her for survival reasons, others, however are not. We all agree to this. The problem is you believe by legalizing them, that they all want it, while probably the majority does, there are others that don't. By legalizing them, as we did in '86 where only 1.?M were supposed to be Amnestied, we ended up having more than 3.?M legalized. Look at the downfall of the economy during that time. Late 1980s recession

Whats going to happen now, if we legalize 12M? Will it turn into 24M+ Amnestied? What about the employers and their breaking of the laws for the last 20+ years? Shouldn't they be punished?

If we give Amnesty to the 'Illegals', then the employers also get Amnestied. They will not be held accountable for exploitation of the workers, they will not be reprimanded in any sort of way. They will then in turn, hire and exploit the next wave of 'Illeglas' that come over expecting another Amnesty, since we now have given 7 in the past 20 years, whats a few more, right?

The employers must be held accountable and penalized, the 'Illegals' are a by product of their cheating and the 'Illegals' own greed.

Lets start playing fair, recall or re-negotiate NAFTA and CAFTA to be more fair to the Central and South American Countries, lets lessen and verify our farm sub-sidies, but most of all, Dee, lets be honest with our debating.

As I have asked many times before, why is dee concentrating on radical fringe groups or isolated incidents of individual misdeeds or alleged misdeeds on the anti side rather than focusing on just plain old law abiding anti's without any kind of a racist agenda? Oh that's right, most of those are white people so they just have to be racists with a superiority complex. They are the all the same to her as the KKK, etc.

One could also argue the fact, that if American Citizens were doing the jobs instead of 'Illegals', then maybe the Citizens wouldn't be losing their homes or be up to their eyeballs in debt. The Americans would have had more money (due to being paid a fair, living wage) to float through the economic quagmire longer, thus lessening the impact that we are seeing today.

According to a July Census report, there are 54,277,000 Americans ages 16 to 64 who aren't in the labor force. This includes 23 million "less-educated" adults who, for a variety of reasons, don't have a job.

Narrowing this down further, there are 14 million people actively seeking employment who can't find a full-time job in today's economy, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. If the supply of illegal workers were to dry up through Arizona's new enforcement programs, employers in the state would be forced to respond by offering higher wages, increased benefits and improved working conditions. Employers would have more incentives to modernize and eliminate unnecessary workers. The result would be a new deal for unskilled American and legal workers because they would be better paid and have more enlightened work environments.

Can you imagine it: Shifting the costs of illegal immigrant employment from the taxpayers to the marketplace?

Michael Scott - Opinion Piece

I like this part the best: Shifting the costs of illegal immigrant employment from the taxpayers to the marketplace?

Anon,Here are some articles that talk about the impact of HR4088 in OK.

I´ve been trying to locate articles that tell me there have been increases in the number of American Citizens obtaining jobs and that their salaries have increased due to the change in law. I am not having any luck so far. Just articles talking about the loss of business and jobs. Please let me know if you find any urls in OK that provide your perspective.

By Devona WalkerStaff WriterRegardless of citizenship status, Hispanics say they are being hurt by the ongoing immigration debate. In contrast, a recent study by the Congressional Budget Office reports that local and state governments are uniformly incurring costs due to the presence of undocumented immigrants.

Note the line, "a recent study by the Congressional Budget Office reports that local and state governments are uniformly incurring costs due to the presence of undocumented immigrants."

What's the fiscal burden?The Congressional Budget Office recently studied the fiscal impact of unauthorized immigrants on state and local governments. It found tax revenues generated from unauthorized residents do not offset the cost of services. Nor does the federal government adequately reimburse local governments for those additional costs.It also reports that constitutionally many states have difficulty avoiding those costs. In most states unauthorized immigrants cost states less than 5 percent of the cost to provide citizens those same services. In terms of fiscal deficits, the largest tax burden has been in education, health care and police and fire services.

"We, in the public debate, have ignored those costs for too long,” said Carol Swain, a Vanderbilt University Law professor and author. Swain said illegal immigrants strain low-income workers and criticized their advocates for demonizing dissent. Beyond the highly politicized debate, she says people are paying the price.

In 2004, the Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-illegal immigration think tank, estimated that the net national impact of illegal immigration to be about $10 billion, roughly 0.09 percent of the annual budget at the time — a relatively low number.

What concerns Swain , as well as other critics of illegal immigration is that the benefits of illegal immigration are enjoyed by one group, primarily the businesses that employ them and consumers that use their services. However, the costs are endured by other groups — low-income workers who compete for those jobs and taxpayers.

"It's not costless to the nation. It's not simply a win-win, like immigration advocates would like to portray it,” Swain said.

The worst hit is native citizens, then law-abiding immigrants, she said.

"Those seeking to come to this country legally but cannot because all the attention is focused on one group,” Swain said. "What about the immigrants that are here legally and waiting for green cards and cannot (get them) because the system is clogged up with illegal immigration?”

Pat,1st, read the overall articles I posted. Business and Taxes are being LOST. No one disputes this.

2nd, the studies conducted and referenced in the article were posted here before. In a nutshell, they indicated both benefits and costs. With newer immigrants the costs of education are the biggest impacts and from the local and state perspective, these costs outweigh the over benefit. However, all recognize that the benifit of education leads to assimilation, leads to higher net profit in the future.

3. You have to be alert to words in the article which reference the people (ANTI CRITICS) providing the quotes (OPINIONS).

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A PRO Forum where people, both PRO and ANTI, can discuss American Immigration Issues and Political Issues civilly, freely and safely thereby reducing the hate, anger and misunderstandings currently inherent in most of these discussions.

About This Blog

This Blog promotes the discussion of opinions of the Blog Owner and commenters who wish to participate in the discussion about Immigration Issues and Political Issues.

Many blog entries contain details from actual news articles and urls are included for reader reference.

In some instances, individuals referenced in the blog are defendants who may be coming to trial or whose trial is in progress. All defendants are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

It should be noted by all Blog Readers and this is to officially confirm that for all articles on this blog where court cases have not been ruled upon, the word ALLEGED is inserted prior to the defendants name/crime.

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About Me

Hello. My name is Dee. I live in Texas. I am an American. My ethnicity is Hispanic. Many would call me Mexican or Mexican American. Some call me a female, PRO-Immigration Reform - Ann Coulter.
My parents, their parents and theirs were all born in the USA.
My husband and I have been happily married for over 20 years. My husband is a big, Irish-American. We have two grown sons. We are happy and my family is doing well. I have been employed as a mid level manager at a very large, well known corporation for over 25 years, now recently retired.
In May, 2006, after the Immigration Marches, I started seeing the cable news channels talking very negatively about illegal immigration. I found many internet sites were talking negatively about legal and illegal immigration issues as well.
Since I do research on the job, I started conducting Immigration research on the web. I joined several Immigration websites and I researched others. I´ve learned so much about Immigration issues over the last year.
What you don´t see on the internet is the Mexican American perspective.
I am here to share my views with you.