House of Commons

Thursday 22 March 1990

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker -- in the Chair ]

DEATH OF A MEMBER

Mr. Speaker : I regret to have to inform the House of the death of
Allan Roberts, esquire, Member for Bootle, and I desire, on behalf of the
House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy
with the relatives of the hon. Member.

London Local Authorities (No. 2) Bill

Oral Answers to Questions

HOME DEPARTMENT

Special Constables

1. Mr. Key : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department
whether he has any plans to increase the number of special constables ; and
if he will make a statement.

6. Mr. Pawsey : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department if he will make a statement about the current level of special
constable recruiting.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr.
Peter Lloyd) : At the end of 1989, there were 15,589 special constables
in England and Wales. I am very keen to see an increase. With that
objective, there will be a national, centrally funded recruiting campaign
and sympathetic consideration will be given to the possibility of a special
payment, or bounty, on an experimental basis.

Mr. Key : That is good news and I congratulate my hon. Friend. Will
he consider improving allowances? Many people feel that a bounty is not in
keeping with the volunteer spirit of the specials. In what ways does my
hon. Friend think that specials should be made more use of than at present?

Mr. Lloyd : My hon. Friend is right to imply that there is a
difference of views about a bounty and that is why we are thinking about it
thoroughly. If it can be useful in increasing the number of special
constables, we should want to try it out. Expenses have been improved
recently, but if my hon. Friend has any suggestions about out-of-pocket
expenses that are not covered properly under the present system, I should
like to hear them. He is also right in believing that not all forces use
special constables as imaginatively as they might. Those that use them well
get enormous benefit. I am thinking of the specials' particular role in
crime prevention advice and in supporting neighbourhood watch schemes. My
hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that.

Mr. Speaker : I remind the House that it is fairer to other hon.
Members if one question is asked at a time. We then get further down the
Order Paper.

Mr. Pawsey : I thank my hon. Friend for his full and complete reply,
such as we have grown used to receiving from him. Will he comment a little
further on recruiting, expecially among the ethnic communities? Will he
also speculate on the improvements that might take place within the
specials were their training to be stepped up? I understand that currently,
they support the regular police, but they could do a great deal more if
their training was a little deeper and more extensive than is currently the
case.

Mr. Lloyd : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his opening remarks
and I shall welcome them by being short rather than long in my answer. Much
can be done on training, and the imaginative use that some forces have been
able to make of the specials is a result of having trained them for those
roles.

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Mr. Madden : Will the Minister give a firm
assurance that the effort to recruit more special constables will not be
allowed to dilute the efforts being made by all police forces to recruit
from the ethnic minorities, as such recruitment remains extremely
disappointing?

Mr. Lloyd : No, the effort will not be used in that way. The ethnic
minorities are better represented among the special constables than in the
police force at large. One characteristic of the special constabulary is
that many of its members go on to become regular policemen. We have had
some recruitment efforts among the ethnic minorities. I am thinking
especially of Tooting, where the increase in numbers was large as a result.
There is a great deal that can be done and in some places, it is being
done. We are trying to urge other forces to copy that good example.

Mr. Salmond : Are there any plans to increase the number of special
constables, to protect the Secretary of State for Scotland from the
righteous anger of the Scottish people, after his failure to defend our
interests in Cabinet and his unwillingness to come to the House to explain
his position?

Mr. Lloyd : People in Scotland are much more law abiding and
sensible than the hon. Gentleman implies.

Mr. Shersby : Is my hon. Friend aware that the Police Federation is
strongly opposed to the introduction of bounties because it believes that
specials would then be used as cheap labour in preference to the use of
regular constables? Is my hon. Friend further aware that the federation
would strongly support financial recompense to specials who lose earnings
as a result of having to give evidence in court?

Mr. Lloyd : We are very much aware that that opinion is widespread
in the Police Federation and that is why we would not begin to pay bounties
to all special constables. If we moved ahead at all, we should want to
experiment to see whether the idea was effective in recruiting and did not
dilute the motives of those who join.

Mr. Sheerman : Is the Minister aware that the recruitment of
specials is closely linked to final recruitment into the regular police
force? Is he further aware that the Government's latest act, reneging on
what many of us believe to be a sacred agreement on arbitration, will mean
that the Government will be unable to recruit not only special constables,
but any constables?

Mr. Lloyd : I do not think that that will have any effect on the
recruitment of special constables, for reasons that have already been made
clear. At present, special constables receive only out-of-pocket expenses.
Therefore, the idea of rent allowances does not weigh with them at all.

Neighbourhood Watch

2. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department how many neighbourhood watch schemes now operate in England and
Wales.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Waddington)
: At the end of December 1989 there were estimated to beover 81,000
neighbourhood watch schemes in England and Wales, covering more than 4
million households, compared with 64,000 at the end of December 1988--an
increase of 26.5 per cent.

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Mr. Carrington : I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend
for that most impressive answer, which shows the great popularity and
success of neighbourhood watch schemes. Does he agree that his answer shows
the important role of such schemes in crime prevention, which justifies the
encouragement that the police give to those schemes and the commitment of
substantial police resources to ensure that they prosper and continue to
provide the services that they have provided already?

Mr. Waddington : There is not the slightest doubt about the
important role that neighbourhood watch schemes play in crime prevention. I
am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. Eight schemes now operate
in Fulham, covering more than 2,500 households, and I hope that there will
be more schemes there shortly.

Mr. Maclennan : How is the information about neighbourhood watch
schemes centrally collated? What is the measure of their effectiveness?

Mr. Waddington : I do not think that we have any difficulty in
collating information as a result of inquiries made of the police.
Obviously, the effect of particular schemes depends to a large extent on
the enthusiasm of the participants. I could cite many examples of schemes
where one can show without peradventure that after their being set up there
was a decline in crime in the area, particularly in burglary.

Mr. Simon Coombs : Given my right hon. and learned Friend's natural
and very proper support for neighbourhood watch schemes, can he justify to
the House a cut in the Wiltshire constabulary's budget for vehicles, plant
and equipment of more than £800,000 for next year, when that money
could reasonably have been expected to do much to support neighbourhood
watch schemes in my constituency?

Mr. Waddington : I can assure my hon. Friend that there has been an
80 per cent. rise in real terms in expenditure on vehicles, plant and
maintenance since 1979. That is just one sign of the enormous increase in
resources made available to the police since this Government came to
office.

Mr. Corbett : While I welcome growing citizen interest in
neighbourhood watch and business watch schemes, does the Home Secretary
accept that they are no substitute for public demand to see more officers
with their feet on the beat? Does he recall that that was a major finding
of a recent Police Federation survey? How does he intend to respond to that
clear expression of public opinion?

Mr. Waddington : The hon. Gentleman should make known his new
enthusiasm for neighbourhood watch schemes to Labour authorities that have
persistently obstructed the setting up of neighbourhood watch schemes in
their area. I hope that he will go straight out of the Chamber and ring
Cleveland county council and Stockton, Hartlepool and Langbaurgh borough
councils. After he has done that and shown his determination to see more
neighbourhood watch schemes set up, he can come back and ask further
questions.

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Prisoners (Hepatitis B)

5. Mr. Alton : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department what action he is taking to protect prisoners from contracting
hepatitis B.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Mellor) : I refer the
hon. Gentleman to replies given on 2 March 1990 to previous questions
tabled by him. I have nothing to add to those answers.

Mr. Alton : After the sad death of one of my constituents from
hepatitis B, does the Minister agree that now is the time to start
collecting statistics from our prisons to establish the high incidence of
hepatitis B among the prison population generally? Does he accept that as
the disease is 100 times more virulent than HIV and as immunisation is
available by vaccine, we should take urgent action to vaccinate prisoners
and staff against it and to collect reliable statistics?

Mr. Mellor : I am aware of the sad case to which the hon. Gentleman
refers. I should welcome the opportunity to discuss the matter with him at
greater length, if he cares to come to see me. We take the most careful
medical advice from the prison medical service and act on its advice in any
cases where, for instance, it advises vaccination either of staff or of
prisoners, if a vaccine is available. I shall be only too happy to discuss
all the details of the matter with the hon. Gentleman. He is right to be
worried about the issue, on which I assure him that the prison medical
service is particularly active.

Mr. Barry Field : Will my hon. and learned Friend confirm that the
recommendations of the chief inspector of prisons on national prison
hospitals, with regard to hepatitis B and HIV, have been fully implemented
and recognised?

Mr. Mellor : Yes, indeed. We take seriously the professional advice
that we receive and, in particular, the role of the chief inspector of
prisons, whose job is to cast an objective eye over that and all other
aspects of running the prison service.

Mr. Ashley : As the Minister is so ready to take advice, will he
also consider the advice of the joint committee on vaccination, which
recommends vaccinating all high-risk people, including staff and prisoners?

Mr. Mellor : As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, it all turns
on the definition of high risk. We certainly have a policy of taking advice
from the prison medical service. Anyone whom it wishes to see vaccinated as
part of its clinical discretion, and who agrees to be vaccinated, can be.
It is always a matter of judgment how far one should go in categorising
people independently of the individual judgment of a medical officer. I
repeat that we are willing to have our arrangements tested against any
independent advice to which hon. Members may have access.

Prisons

7. Miss Emma Nicholson : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department what is the current prison population ; what it was one year ago
; and what projections he has made for the prison population over the next
five years.

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Mr. Mellor : The prison population in England and Wales on 16 March
1990 was 47,115. The corresponding figure for 17 March 1989 was 49, 837, a
reduction of just over 2,700.

Projections published last November, which are in the process of being
revised, suggest that the prison population will rise steadily over the
next five years to reach 58,200 in 1994-95. The year 1989 has, however,
seen an encouraging downturn in the prison population--the average
population being some 1,300 fewer than in 1988. Accordingly, the revised
prison population projections--due to be published later this spring--will,
of course, reflect that fall.

Miss Nicholson : Given that we have an unacceptably high prison
population in the United Kingdom, the results of which I see in Dartmoor
prison, what steps is my hon. and learned Friend taking to ensure that the
lowest number of people are sent to prison, while reflecting the
seriousness of the crimes committed, and that we are not merely falling
into the habit of sending people to prison because we have no better way of
dealing with them?

Mr. Mellor : As my hon. Friend knows, no Government have done more
than this one to develop non-custodial penalties that offer the courts a
wide range of viable alternatives to custody. That process has been taken a
stage further in my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State's
recent White Paper. My hope and belief is that as further arrangements
become available, the courts will make increasing use of them so that the
prison population will increasingly comprise only those who undoubtedly, on
any judgment, deserve imprisonment. It will always be a difficult balance
to strike, but we are taking great steps in that proper direction.

Mr. Gale : Will my hon. and learned Friend take this opportunity to
reaffirm publicly that community service, as proposed in the White Paper,
will not be seen or used as a soft option to imprisonment? Will he also
reaffirm that there is no question of anybody who has been convicted of a
violent crime being allowed to remain on the loose in the community and
that, when it is used, community service will be rigorous?

Mr. Mellor : The first point that needs to be made absolutely clear
is that the courts have ample powers to punish violent offenders. Most
people will continue to believe, as we do, that violent offenders will
usually merit a custodial sentence for the protection of the public.
However, equally, we have nearly 20 years' experience of community service.
Community service is rigorous : it means work for the community's benefit.
Under the guidance of the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the
Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten), national standards are
now being promulgated. Our community service scheme leads the world. It is
not a soft option. It ensures that those convicted of offences put
something back into the community.

Mr. Randall : On the question about the current prison population,
is not the Minister ashamed of the Government's performance when dealing
with young remand inmates, some of whom, according to the chief inspector
of prisons, are living in unacceptable conditions in prison, and being
denied sufficient education and exercise? Some are even locked up for 20
hours a day. What does the Minister say to that?

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Mr. Mellor : First, nobody is remanded in
custody without the courts being satisfied that that person cannot safely
be left at liberty. Remand should be an option of last resort. To begin
with, therefore, those youngsters are in remand because of things that they
are alleged to have done and because the courts lack confidence in their
ability to behave themselves while awaiting trail.

Secondly, it is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to rush to judgment on
such matters, but no Government have done more than this Government in
building new prisons and refurbishing old ones. Ten years ago we inherited
the most run down prison system in Europe as a result of the persistent and
flagrant neglect of the previous Labour Government. That cannot be reversed
overnight.

Remand Prisoners

8. Mr. Hind : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department
what is the current number of remand prisoners held in police cells ; and
what it was one year ago.

Mr. Mellor : On Friday 16 March, there were no remand prisoners held
in police cells in England and Wales. That compares with 182 people held on
17 March 1989, most of whom were on remand. I am very glad to be able to
say that the measures that my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr.
Hurd), the previous Home Secretary, introduced to overcome the problem of
the need to hold prisoners in police cells for lengthy periods of time have
proved a success. My right hon. and learned Friend the present Home
Secretary is determined to see that this success is maintained.

Mr. Hind : Will my hon. and learned Friend congratulate the prison
service on achieving the end of that use of police cells? How are his
deliberations on the use of private companies to construct remand centres
progressing? Does he agree that there are several good models in the United
States, where the remand centres are located in cities, close to the courts
and to the families who wish to visit the prisoners, and much more
convenient for the purposes of transportation? When will my hon. and
learned Friend be able to tell us that he has reached a verdict on those
considerations?

Mr. Mellor : Obviously, it is important that, as far as possible, no
prisoners are held outside purpose-built prisons. I am glad to say that as
a result of a combination of factors--not least the Government's commitment
and willingness, unlike the Labour Government, to make resources available-
-it has been possible to achieve that. Private remand prisons are under
active consideration and I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the
Home Secretary can make a statement before too long.

Birmingham Pub Bombings

9. Mr. Harry Barnes : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department what representations he has received from Birmingham city
council on the Birmingham pub bombings.

10. Mr. Mullin : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department if he has sought the opinion of the Lord Chief Justice on the
new evidence in the Birmingham pub bombings case.

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Mr. Waddington : I am not aware of recent representations from
Birmingham city council about the Birmingham pub bombings case. I have not
sought the opinion of the Lord Chief Justice on the Birmingham pub bombings
case.

Mr. Barnes : I am a little surprised by that answer, because I
thought that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had received a delegation
from Birmingham. What is the purpose of this further, fifth and, I hope,
final police inquiry, when it is understood by the Home Office, whole
sections of the police force and the judiciary, that there will be eventual
freedom for the Birmingham Six? In those circumstances, is not it
disturbing that the Birmingham Six should remain imprisoned and branded as
guilty when procedures are being set in motion for, I hope, their release?

Mr. Waddington : Justice demands that innocent men should go free ;
it also demands that guilty men should stay in gaol. Claims have been made,
and the object of the exercise is to determine whether there is any
substance to them. I have asked the chief constable of the West Midlands
police to report on a number of specific points that were put to me
recently, and he has decided to ask the Devon and Cornwall police to
consider those matters. The basic question is still whether the
representations made to me constitute new evidence relevant to the safety
of the convictions.

Mr. Mullin : Will the Home Secretary confirm that one of the
principal obstacles to the case being referred back to the Court of Appeal
is the implacable hostility of the Lord Chief Justice? Does the right hon.
and learned Gentleman agree that the resignation or the early retirement of
the Lord Chief Justice would be a small price to pay for justice being
achieved in this case?

Mr. Waddington : That is one of the most preposterous and
irresponsible statements that I have ever heard in the House. Incidentally,
I am amazed by the sheer irresponsibility of the hon. Gentleman who, while
protesting his concern for the Birmingham Six, has steadfastly refused to
reveal material that he claims would prove their innocence. Must we wait
for another novel from him?

Mr. Alexander : Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept the
thanks of many Conservative Members for the open-minded way in which he
accepted the new evidence presented to him before Christmas? Is he aware
that the fact that someone else will be investigating the matter with an
open mind is largely welcome? If something sinister appears, will he
reconsider asking the Court of Appeal to examine the case again, once the
Devon and Cornwall police have finished their inquiries?

Mr. Waddington : I am grateful for the way in which my hon. Friend
put his question. As I said, the basic question is whether the matters that
have been put to me constitute new evidence that casts doubt on the safety
of the convictions. If, as a result of those inquiries, matters are put to
me that convince me that new evidence casts doubt on the convictions, I
shall take appropriate action.

Mr. Gow : Can my right hon. and learned Friend tell the House the
nature of the fresh evidence that has been provided and upon which he has
asked the police to

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report? Can he assure the House that the
police will conduct the further inquiry as rapidly as possible, consistent
with examining the evidence thoroughly?

Mr. Waddington : I wish that I could help my hon. Friend on his
first point, but I do not think that it would be proper for me publicly to
disclose all the matters that I have asked the chief constable of the West
Midlands to consider. However, I take my hon. Friend's second point--these
are important matters that should be dealt with as quickly as possible, and
I am sure that the police realise that.

Mr. Mallon : Given the various disturbing factors that have come to
light since the original jury trial of the Birmingham Six, will the Home
Secretary say whether, in his professional experience and judgment, the new
evidence leads him to believe that if it had been given to the original
jury they would have found differently? Will he be guided by the informed
opinion of Lords Scarman and Devlin and concede that there may well have
been a miscarriage of justice in this case?

Mr. Waddington : I think that I have already answered that question.
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman realises that the difficult task that I
have to perform when material is put before me is to come to a conclusion
about whether it constitutes new evidence which casts doubt on the safety
of the convictions. That is the task which I am trying to perform to the
best of my ability.

Mr. Dickens : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there
is a simple answer to all this? If the Birmingham Six are innocent, and I
say "if" because I have no way of judging, would not the simple answer be
for those who are campaigning for them to be released--the IRA--to supply
us with the names of those who did the bombing?

Mr. Waddington : One does not have to go as far as the IRA--one can
ask the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin). He says that he
knows all about these matters, but he has steadfastly and irresponsibly
refused to give the authorities the information that he says will help.

Mr. Hattersley : First, I congratulate the Home Secretary on the
decision that he announced yesterday--not least because there is a general
wish throughout the country, particularly in Birmingham, for the men or
women who were genuinely responsible for the pub bombings to be convicted
and imprisoned, rather than those whom it is increasingly believed are not
guilty. Does he understand that having set out on that course--I repeat my
congratulations on that--there can be no going back and that having begun
with a limited inquiry he now cannot avoid a comprehensive and complete
inquiry? He should understand that his impartiality on this matter will be
better understood and appreciated if he attempts to answer questions from
Opposition Members in a way that is appropriate to a Home Secretary.

Mr. Waddington : I imagine that the right hon. Gentleman's last
reference had nothing to do with the Birmingham Six, but was a reference to
my reply about neighbourhood watch schemes--[ Hon. Members :--
"No!"] If it referred to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr.
Mullin), I certainly do not need to defend myself about that--it is time
that the hon. Member recognised his

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responsibility as a Member of this House. I
should have thought the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr.
Hattersley) would also know that.

Mr. Cryer : The Home Secretary should sit down--he does not own the
place.

Mr. Speaker : Order. We often hear things in the House with which we
do not agree.

Mr. Waddington : I shall address myself now to the question put to
me by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook, which might have been better if
he had not gone on to subsequent matters. The issue is a simple one :
material has been put before me and I must determine whether it constitutes
new evidence that casts doubt on the convictions. I am entitled to seek
what advice I can in order to come to a proper conclusion about the matter.
That is what I was about when I addressed certain questions to the chief
constable of the West Midlands. One should not conclude from that that it
is necessary to have another inquiry.

Juvenile Crime

16. Mr. Amess : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department if he will make a further statement on the progress of his
policy on developing parental responsibility for juvenile crime.

Mr. Waddington : Our proposals were set out in the White Paper
"Crime, Justice and Protecting the Public", published in February. We
intend to strengthen courts' powers to require parents to attend court with
their children and to bind the parents over. The parents' means would be
taken into account in fixing the level of any fines for the children's
offences and parents would normally be ordered by the courts to pay the
fines. We have already received some encouraging responses to the
proposals.

Mr. Amess : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is
necessary to make irresponsible parents more conscious of their
responsibility for the criminal activities of their children? Does he also
agree that, as the peak age of offending is 15, it is not good enough for
some parents to expect schools to be totally responsible for the discipline
of their children out of school hours?

Mr. Waddington : My hon. Friend is right. It is a very sad fact that
young people sometimes appear in court with no parent alongside them. The
courts ought to have a duty to order parents to attend unless it would
obviously be unreasonable so to do. The whole House, I am sure, will agree
that in deciding what is an appropriate financial penalty to impose on a
young person the court should have power to bear in mind the parents'
means.

Mr. Heffer : Would that also apply to Members of this House? Over
the years, children of many hon. Members--on both sides, but especially on
the Conservative side--have got themselves into drug problems, and so on,
through no fault of the parents, Members of Parliament probably being away
from home all week? Will a Member of Parliament be held responsible for
everything that his children do? I have never heard such a preposterous
suggestion?

Mr. Waddington : The hon. Gentleman should look at the specific
proposals. If he examines them individually he

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will find it very hard indeed to quarrel
with them. Obviously there are cases--probably many cases--in which
children get into trouble and it is quite impossible to say that the fault
lies with the parents, but equally, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman will
agree, it is preposterous for parents whose children get into trouble to
say that it is nothing to do with them and that they need not even bother
to turn up at court.

Mr. Norris : I welcome the accent placed by my right hon. and
learned Friend on parental responsibility, but I wonder whether he agrees
that there is a place for parental responsibility in relation to community
service orders. My right hon. and learned Friend was right to strengthen
community service orders and to increase their importance in the treatment
of young people who have committed crimes. Might not an obligation be
imposed on parents to ensure their children's attendance under the scheme?

Mr. Waddington : I am not sure about the obligation, but there is a
very strong case for expecting those responsible for community service
orders to make it clear to the parents what is involved and to encourage
them to take the very closest interest in the punishment being meted out to
their children.

Hull Prison

22. Mr. Sheerman : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Department what timetable he intends to introduce for the removal of
juveniles from Hull B wing.

Mr. Mellor : Some relief may be provided by a new local authority
secure unit due to open in Hull in mid-1991, and a new remand centre at
Everthorpe will be ready early in 1992. Until these are available, there is
no feasible alternative to the use of B wing at Hull prison for juveniles
on remand.