The game slows down in the playoffs. You are at tremendous advantage as a team if you have a legit C, who you could throw a ball to at half court play and this is particularly true when it matters the most.

"O'DONNELL: Underrated factor in this pick: With Masai Ujiri on-board (and maybe even the recent influx of talent out of Canada), Valanciunas should have some awesome teammates around him. "
music to my ears!

You need a player who can score in the low post, but that doesn't have to be a center. A power forward like David West or a SF with a good post up game could work just as well. Look at what Dallas did with Dirk set up at the elbow. He "posted up" in the high post and they ran their entire offence through him to a Championship.

Plus in the playoffs, shooting %s decrease, so having an athletic big who can grab some offensive boards and give you those extra possessions is a huge bonus.

You need a player who can score in the low post, but that doesn't have to be a center. A power forward like David West or a SF with a good post up game could work just as well. Look at what Dallas did with Dirk set up at the elbow. He "posted up" in the high post and they ran their entire offence through him to a Championship.

Plus in the playoffs, shooting %s decrease, so having an athletic big who can grab some offensive boards and give you those extra possessions is a huge bonus.

Having an athletic big doesn't preclude the value of having a quality true C. It was not David West that gave Miami problems in the playoffs. It was Hibbert protecting the rim. Whenever Indiana pulled Hibbert to get someone more capable of covering Bosh on the outside, LeBron and Wade carved them up.

Also interesting that you used David West as an example of grabbing offensive rebounds. Per36, West grabbed 2.1 ORBs last year. In his rookie year, Jonas grabbed 2.9

Having an athletic big doesn't preclude the value of having a quality true C. It was not David West that gave Miami problems in the playoffs. It was Hibbert protecting the rim. Whenever Indiana pulled Hibbert to get someone more capable of covering Bosh on the outside, LeBron and Wade carved them up.

Also interesting that you used David West as an example of grabbing offensive rebounds. Per36, West grabbed 2.1 ORBs last year. In his rookie year, Jonas grabbed 2.9

You completely misunderstood my posting.

Vino said you need a legit C to throw the ball into during the playoffs, as opposed to a Kenneth Farried type big, which I had previously posted as the new proto-type in the evolving NBA center position. My point was that, for the playoffs, you don't need a traditional center to throw the ball into, but rather a post scorer (ie David West on the low block or a high post guy like Dirk) that commands the double team.

The offensive rebounding would come from the Kenneth Farried type athletic center playing next to the scorer (David West for this example).

Vino said you need a legit C to throw the ball into during the playoffs, as opposed to a Kenneth Farried type big, which I had previously posted as the new proto-type in the evolving NBA center position. My point was that, for the playoffs, you don't need a traditional center to throw the ball into, but rather a post scorer (ie David West on the low block or a high post guy like Dirk) that commands the double team.

The offensive rebounding would come from the Kenneth Farried type athletic center playing next to the scorer (David West for this example).

It was not David West that gave Miami problems in the playoffs. It was Hibbert protecting the rim. Whenever Indiana pulled Hibbert to get someone more capable of covering Bosh on the outside, LeBron and Wade carved them up.

I'm not saying that West was more valuable then Hibbert in that series, but I was REALLY impressed by him. He did a great job on both ends of the floor. If you believe it's not just how much you score, but when you score, David West is the unsung hero of that series. There were so many times, (IMO)) where you could just feel that Indiana needed a bucket to keep the momentum from shifting to far to Miami and West would get one.

This is off-topic from the main thread, and again I'm not saying that West was more valuable than Hibbert, but he brought A LOT to that series. Hibbert was a beast though. (Which does seem to make it strange that that Axel brought up West as an example, because Hibbert was the guy the posted up more often... but west did get a lot of touches and made good on a lot of them)

"We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

If Jonas turns out to be a legit low post scorer, then I'd probably take Jonas and Farried. My point wasn't that Farried types are better than Jonas types, but rather that Jonas is a rare breed that fewer teams are able to find. Since they can't find a skilled 7', more teams are going for the smaller (6'9, 6'10) but uber athletic guys to play the 5.

ezz_bee wrote:

I'm not saying that West was more valuable then Hibbert in that series, but I was REALLY impressed by him. He did a great job on both ends of the floor. If you believe it's not just how much you score, but when you score, David West is the unsung hero of that series. There were so many times, (IMO)) where you could just feel that Indiana needed a bucket to keep the momentum from shifting to far to Miami and West would get one.

This is off-topic from the main thread, and again I'm not saying that West was more valuable than Hibbert, but he brought A LOT to that series. Hibbert was a beast though. (Which does seem to make it strange that that Axel brought up West as an example, because Hibbert was the guy the posted up more often... but west did get a lot of touches and made good on a lot of them)

I used West as an example of an elite post-up guy. It had nothing to do with that series or any series. The comments were made to demonstrate how in the evolving NBA, the center position has changed and that more and more teams are going to employ a Farried type player because legit 7' human beings with NBA talent is very rare. Vino made the point that in the playoffs you still need a traditional center because the game slows down. Having a power forward who can score in the post and command double teams next to the Farried type center, negates that point. David West was simply the first name that came to my head, feel free to insert LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, Z-Bo, Elton Brand, Al Jefferson, etc.

If Jonas turns out to be a legit low post scorer, then I'd probably take Jonas and Farried. My point wasn't that Farried types are better than Jonas types, but rather that Jonas is a rare breed that fewer teams are able to find. Since they can't find a skilled 7', more teams are going for the smaller (6'9, 6'10) but uber athletic guys to play the 5.

I used West as an example of an elite post-up guy. It had nothing to do with that series or any series. The comments were made to demonstrate how in the evolving NBA, the center position has changed and that more and more teams are going to employ a Farried type player because legit 7' human beings with NBA talent is very rare. Vino made the point that in the playoffs you still need a traditional center because the game slows down. Having a power forward who can score in the post and command double teams next to the Farried type center, negates that point. David West was simply the first name that came to my head, feel free to insert LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, Z-Bo, Elton Brand, Al Jefferson, etc.

But those types are nothing new. Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Kemp, McHale, Weber (and I'm sure we can add many more) - these were all bigs who were the focus of the offense (between the 2 bigs anyways).

The 'type' of player the NBA uses (or what teams prefer to use) doesn't really change that much at the macro level. At the micro level its always in flux. There was a period in the 90s where they were arguable a larger than normal amount of elite/superstar/HOF Cs at the very top, but that was an exception and not the norm.

But those types are nothing new. Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Kemp, McHale, Weber (and I'm sure we can add many more) - these were all bigs who were the focus of the offense (between the 2 bigs anyways).

The 'type' of player the NBA uses (or what teams prefer to use) doesn't really change that much at the macro level. At the micro level its always in flux. There was a period in the 90s where they were arguable a larger than normal amount of elite/superstar/HOF Cs at the very top, but that was an exception and not the norm.

The scoring PF isn't knew, but often times those names you pointed out were lined up next to the awkward hulking 7'.

Now you are seeing fewer of those 7' centers in the NBA and more of the smaller athletic bigs instead. Ben Wallace was a bit ahead of the curve, but guys like Joel Anthony, Anderson Varajao, Kendrick Perkins, and JJ Hickson are becoming the new norm for teams and more and more teams are using smaller and faster players. As teams put more emphasis on 3 point shooting and especially the corner 3, team defence needs 5 guys who can race out to cover the 3 when the ball is cycled around. A big hulking center like Ostertag could never get out there in time, but a faster athletic big like Andre Drummond can.

The Raps have a traditional stud in JV, but just rolling him out there with what worked in the past for these types of players is a mistake. As the league is shifting to the smaller, faster Cs, the Raps need to make sure they construct a roster and a scheme that can counter the faster transitional game and the more spread out perimeter game, while taking advantage of JV's size and skill.

Now you are seeing fewer of those 7' centers in the NBA and more of the smaller athletic bigs instead. Ben Wallace was a bit ahead of the curve, but guys like Joel Anthony, Anderson Varajao, Kendrick Perkins, and JJ Hickson are becoming the new norm for teams and more and more teams are using smaller and faster players. As teams put more emphasis on 3 point shooting and especially the corner 3, team defence needs 5 guys who can race out to cover the 3 when the ball is cycled around. A big hulking center like Ostertag could never get out there in time, but a faster athletic big like Andre Drummond can.

The Raps have a traditional stud in JV, but just rolling him out there with what worked in the past for these types of players is a mistake. As the league is shifting to the smaller, faster Cs, the Raps need to make sure they construct a roster and a scheme that can counter the faster transitional game and the more spread out perimeter game, while taking advantage of JV's size and skill.

Perkins is 7ft. Varejo is 6'11. Faried himself played next to McGee and Koufos both 7ft plus.

There are still plenty of 7fters. Guys like Hickson and Anthony are not the norm (Anthony barely played last year, and has since been replaced by the Birdman and now Oden - both 7fters), and Hickson only has had a temporary position as a starting C. I'm not sure there is any trend heading that way.

The new Cs in the league may no longer be slow hulking brutes, but they are quick athletic brutes instead. I really don't see them getting shorter. I agree that they are (generally) getting more athletic though.

Perkins is 7ft. Varejo is 6'11. Faried himself played next to McGee and Koufos both 7ft plus.

There are still plenty of 7fters. Guys like Hickson and Anthony are not the norm (Anthony barely played last year, and has since been replaced by the Birdman and now Oden - both 7fters), and Hickson only has had a temporary position as a starting C. I'm not sure there is any trend heading that way.

The new Cs in the league may no longer be slow hulking brutes, but they are quick athletic brutes instead. I really don't see them getting shorter. I agree that they are (generally) getting more athletic though.

It isn't something that can be purely quantified by something like height. Varajao is a great example. Look at his game and he would have been considered more of a PF than C in the 80s and 90s, but in the current NBA, he is a center. Kevin Garnett, Al Horford and LaMarcus Aldridge are guys who want to be PFs because they feel that is their best position, but in the current trend of NBA bigs, they are largely used at the Center position. It could be argued that KG is a better C than a PF over the last 5 years. KG bristled against coaches in Minnesota when they asked him to play C, but in Boston, he finally came to accept it. Chris Bosh went through the same thing from year 1 to now in Miami, finally accepting the fact that playing C with traditional PF traits. Both of those players realized the value of what the coaches were trying to do and I believe that it is the direction that the league is heading. The PF spot is blending with the SF spot, and the C spot is being held down by a PF.

Vino said you need a legit C to throw the ball into during the playoffs, as opposed to a Kenneth Farried type big, which I had previously posted as the new proto-type in the evolving NBA center position. My point was that, for the playoffs, you don't need a traditional center to throw the ball into, but rather a post scorer (ie David West on the low block or a high post guy like Dirk) that commands the double team.

The offensive rebounding would come from the Kenneth Farried type athletic center playing next to the scorer (David West for this example).

No, that's not what I said. What I said was "you are at tremendous advantage as a team if you have a legit C, who you could throw a ball to at half court play and this is particularly true when it matters the most." just to explain this further... the advantage comes because, as you've mentioned, many teams don't have a legit 7 footer who can play both ends of the floor at a high level. I'd much rather throw the ball into a capable 7 footer (hopefully Jonas), rather than a player like David West... simply because on most nights there will be no one who could guard him. Or if there is a defensive type big; he'd be a detriment for his team on offense, so Jonas (in this case) could help and protect the rim more effectively/efficiently.

The league is shifting to the smaller, faster Cs due to necessity and not by choice. Of course Jonas has to stay with the faster, often shorter athletic dudes like Faried on transition D - no one questions that.

No, that's not what I said. What I said was "you are at tremendous advantage as a team if you have a legit C, who you could throw a ball to at half court play and this is particularly true when it matters the most." just to explain this further... the advantage comes because, as you've mentioned, many teams don't have a legit 7 footer who can play both ends of the floor at a high level. I'd much rather throw the ball into a capable 7 footer (hopefully Jonas), rather than a player like David West... simply because on most nights there will be no one who could guard him. Or if there is a defensive type big; he'd be a detriment for his team on offense, so Jonas (in this case) could help and protect the rim more effectively/efficiently.

The league is shifting to the smaller, faster Cs due to necessity and not by choice. Of course Jonas has to stay with the faster, often shorter athletic dudes like Faried on transition D - no one questions that.

If there was a game tonight and you had the final possession for the win, would you rather have David West or JV in the post with the ball in his hands?

For me, that player is West today and tomorrow, maybe JV in a couple of seasons if he develops like we want. I don't think JV being 7' gives him any advantage over West's footwork, strong base and soft touch.

I think the league is making a choice. No one forced the teams of the 90s to start Bill Cartwright, but they still did. For many years teams rolled out 7' centers who shouldn't have been on the court (Loren Woods anyone?) because every team felt that they needed a 7' foot player to protect the rim.

While the need to protect the rim hasn't gone anywhere, the need for team defences to cover the entire baseline from corner to corner to prevent the 3 is growing. NBA teams are shooting the 3 more than previously.

Excerpt from an article I found while looking for the stats on 3pt shots.
"When Reggie Miller entered the N.B.A. in 1987 as a skinny rookie with a high-arcing jump shot, about 1 of every 18 field-goal attempts in the league was a 3-pointer. This season, 3-pointers represented almost 1 of every 4 shots taken." ~ http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/26/sp...anted=all&_r=0

As 3pt shots have risen, teams have made the decision to employ more 3 point shooters on their roster than ever would have been conceived 10-15 years ago. As such, team defences will need to evolve to counter such. Having a rim protector is simply a luxury that many teams wont be able to employ. The corner 3 and at the rim are the 2 best shots in basketball, both along the baseline that will force defences to guard the entire width of the court, putting more pressure on the backline anchor on defence (typically the C position since they can see the most of the court being at the back of the action).

It isn't something that can be purely quantified by something like height. Varajao is a great example. Look at his game and he would have been considered more of a PF than C in the 80s and 90s, but in the current NBA, he is a center. Kevin Garnett, Al Horford and LaMarcus Aldridge are guys who want to be PFs because they feel that is their best position, but in the current trend of NBA bigs, they are largely used at the Center position. It could be argued that KG is a better C than a PF over the last 5 years. KG bristled against coaches in Minnesota when they asked him to play C, but in Boston, he finally came to accept it. Chris Bosh went through the same thing from year 1 to now in Miami, finally accepting the fact that playing C with traditional PF traits. Both of those players realized the value of what the coaches were trying to do and I believe that it is the direction that the league is heading. The PF spot is blending with the SF spot, and the C spot is being held down by a PF.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. We at times remember positions being 'more defined', but I don't think that was at all the case.

Hakeem played the first 4 years (?) of his career called a 'C' beside a 7'4 'PF' named Ralph Sampson. When Hakeem won his titles he was a 'C' beside a 6'9" SF/stretch PF in Robert Horry.

The Pistons won their titles in the late 80s/early 90s with a 250lb 7fter with range in Laimbeer, who played with 2 other 7fters in Edwards/Salley and other times an offensively questionable PF who could defend all 5 positions in Rodman.

That blending has always existed. Positions have always been a construct used for simplicity, but I don't think if we look at the league now we see that much difference in the role of 'normal positions' as we did then because what players tended to do or be was always very diverse.

If there was a game tonight and you had the final possession for the win, would you rather have David West or JV in the post with the ball in his hands?

For me, that player is West today and tomorrow, maybe JV in a couple of seasons if he develops like we want. I don't think JV being 7' gives him any advantage over West's footwork, strong base and soft touch..

I think the league is making a choice.

I talked about the future, not today. Personally, I hope Jonas will be a lot more useful than West even if you compare just one attribute/part of the game - offense close to the rim; if everything else is equal... (for the purpose of this argument), there is no denial that a 7' more likely to score close to the basket than a 6'9'', who is more likely to get blocked. I hope Jonas will be a lot more useful than West in all categories.

Axel wrote:

I think the league is making a choice.

On that we'll just have to disagree. I think there is an overall lack of dominant, skilled 7 footers in the league today compared to the 90s, which plays to our advantage when Jonas develops to his full potential in a few years.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. We at times remember positions being 'more defined', but I don't think that was at all the case.

Hakeem played the first 4 years (?) of his career called a 'C' beside a 7'4 'PF' named Ralph Sampson. When Hakeem won his titles he was a 'C' beside a 6'9" SF/stretch PF in Robert Horry.

The Pistons won their titles in the late 80s/early 90s with a 250lb 7fter with range in Laimbeer, who played with 2 other 7fters in Edwards/Salley and other times an offensively questionable PF who could defend all 5 positions in Rodman.

That blending has always existed. Positions have always been a construct used for simplicity, but I don't think if we look at the league now we see that much difference in the role of 'normal positions' as we did then because what players tended to do or be was always very diverse.

I think you are taking a few isolated players from the 90s and comparing them to the abundance in today's NBA.

As per the basketball reference link, there have only been 36 "individual player's seasons" where a player 6'9" or taller, attempted 3 or more 3PT per game from 1946-2000. Of that, there are only 15 players:

Robert Horry did it in the 2 years you mentioned with Hakeem's Championship Rockets, but Laimbeer never attempted more than 2 per game (once) and only 4 times did he average more than 1 attempt per game, from 1988-1992.

In comparison, there were 15 players that meet the same criteria (6'9" or taller) and attempted 3 or more 3PT per game this past season.

All in all, the NBA game is changing. It is played differently than it was in the 80's, 90's or even early 2000's. As the game changed, so has the roles of players. Coaches are looking at ways to spread the court further than ever before, and 3PT shooting from slots 1-5 is more and more common. Defences will have to adjust to compensate. To adjust, the traditional big man, like a Roy Hibbert, is going to become even more rare. Having JV is a gift for Raptors fans, but the team needs to recognize how the game is changing and ensure that they build a team around him that doesn't neglect the NBA trend.

NBA.com: When you look at the evolution of some of the positions now, do you agree with the suggestion of some people that the traditional big man is one that seems to have really changed with the stretch fours and 7-footers that don’t play on the low block?

BR: That’s a fallacy. The way the game’s played, when you have a unique player, whatever his position is, that’s where the game is going. When I was a kid growing up there was a guy named Hank Luisetti played at Stanford and he’s the first player to shoot one-handed with great success. I remember reading something at that time where a coach said if he ever catches one of his players shooting with one hand, they’ll never play another minute. But things change. And if you get a great player at any position, the game is copycat. Nowadays, your star is always your shooting guard. But if you come with a center that can really play, the game will revolve around the center. Or if you have a [power forward] who can really play, the game revolves around him. So the game changes according to who is playing. I have this thought, you never get to a place where you ask a player to play against a ghost … past, present or future. You can only play against the people that show up when you play. And so how you dominate that era, that’s the only thing you can say. Now if you’re talking about scoring, you can’t get past Wilt Chamberlain, so what they do nowadays is they ignore what Wilt Chamberlain did. They don’t even bring it up. The fact that one season he averaged 50 points a game. His average. So you now you talk about guys scoring 30 points or 35 points. And that’s a long way from his average. You talk about assists, Oscar [Robertson] averaged a triple-double. And now they’re talking about a double-double. So what you are doing is choosing which stats you want to emphasize and make that most important. The people that decide that really don’t know what’s going on. You talk about rebounding. Wilt averaged 22.9 rebounds for 14 years. Averaging almost 23 if you round it off, for 14 seasons. Now the leading rebounder might have average 12 or 13. Wilt and myself had over 20,000 rebounds. That’s 20,000 one at a time. If you’re going to talk about numbers, it has nothing to do with anything. It’s about how you dominate your contemporaries in the game. People that say look at the numbers, that means they don’t know what they are looking at. A guy can play and almost never do his numbers indicate how good he is. You have to watch him and see what he does. Is he a positive part of the equation for your team?

What Russell says about you play however you need to play to fit your talent is very true - Spolestra figured this out with Lebron in Miami in a way that Mike Brown never did in Cleveland. Also the Spurs, Grizz, and Pacers (3 of the final 4) play to their talents - which happen to include core, and very traditional, big men.

Other than the variety of ways to approach the game, the old "inside-out" offensive approach is no longer the default way to play basketball. I think that adds to the sense that the game isn't for big men any more. The effect of the 3 point shot has finally truly permeated the game, and more recent hand-checking rules have made outside-in more of the default. But ultimately, as Russel noted, (good) teams figure out strategies to fit their personnel. Popovich has been an absolute genius at evolving the Spurs systems over the years to do exactly that.

I read somewhere this past year (and I can't find a link for the life of me) that there are actually more big men playing more minutes at a higher level (I think measured with PER) than ever before in the history of the game. We tend to remember Wilt and Russell and Kareem and forget that stiffs fill out any roster in any era, and that there have been and there currently are some great big men in the league (Shaq, Duncan, Dwight, Yao...even the Gasols, and we'll see about the next generation, which looks very promising).

Glad he mentioned Wilt. Averaging 50 points a game for a season. And averaging more than 23 rebounds a game for 13 seasons. Unbelievabe.

They are crazy numbers (I think he averaged 50-25 one year), but you have to remember what era he was playing in and how he was able to play.

The year he averaged 50.4ppg, his true shooting percentage was only 53.6% which is pretty mediocre for a big man (Dwight comparatively is usually around 60% --- 59.8% for his career). Wilt was taking 39.5 shots per game, which is more than double what guys like Kevin Durant, James Harden and LeBron took this year.

The pace of the league was also much different back then. For example, Wilt's Warriors averaged 125.4 points per game (Denver led the league with 106.1ppg this year). Also Chamberlain was a FREAK in terms of height. He was 7'1 and 275lbs, and the next tallest players on his team (Ruklick and Radovich) were 6'9 and 6'8 and played a combined total of less than 15 minutes per game (compared to Wilt's 48.5). The next biggest regular rotation player was Tom Meschery at 6'6 215lbs... so it's kinda easy to see how Wilt would be grabbing that many rebounds.

Edit: Not sure how statistically useful this will be but, I'm gonna try and adjust Wilt's stats for current pace and regular playing time.

He did this in 48.5 minutes per game. If we adjust this to typical minutes for a top-flight center (36 or so --- Dwight played 35.8 last year), we have:
- 37.4ppg
- 19.1ppg
- 29.3 field goal attempts

Now this is the part that's kind of arbitrary, but the Warriors that year were the top scoring team with 125.4ppg and the Nuggets this year averaged 106.1ppg, so that's a ratio of 1.18. If we divide Wilt's stats by that ratio we have:
- 31.6ppg
- 16.2ppg
- 24.8 field goal attempts

Now obviously these numbers are still ridiculous. But if we take into account the number of shots he's taking and the fact that he was by far the biggest player on the court and basically decades ahead of his time athletically, it's not hard to see why he was able to do it.