Ok, so I have proof that Vergere isn't, as Lumiya called her, a Sith. Ok. According to Lumiya, Sith do what is necessary for the greater good, regardless of its cruelty, correct? Now answer me this: isn't Alpah Red a textbook example of what a Sith would do in Lumiya's book? And yet, when confronted with it, what did Vergere do? She took it so it couldn't be used. I found that revelation odd and comforting at the same time. Thoughts???_________________
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
-The Code of the Sith

In mourning . . .

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:27 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6844Location: Missouri

But by preventing the use of Alpha Red she prolonged the suffering of the Jedi, the Sith's archenemy. If the Sith could find a way to use the Vong to hurt or even destroy the Jedi, they wouldn't hesitate to do it. Plus it all falls into the grand scheme. Since Alpha Red wasn't used, Jacen got the spotlight. And now he has been groomed to take over the Galaxy, thus putting the Sith back in control. So it served its purpose.

...yet I can't see why any Sith Lord would have wanted Caedus in power. He's absolutely worthless. So much potential down the drain. _________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:52 am

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AushAdministrator

Joined: 12 Nov 2007Posts: 980Location: Midwest, USA

I don't think Vergere would want to be grouped with either the Jedi or the Sith but only as Vergere (as she tells Jacen in Traitor when he asks if she is a Sith.)

As for your point, it is a good question: why would she stop its use? Most Sith won't let any feelings for beings of no importance affect their decisions (like Lumiya's fight against Luke in Tempest in the cantina) but Vergere didn't want the genocide of the Yuuzhan Vong. Yes, she wanted Jacen to rise up and put an end to the war (if she wanted him to do this to become a Sith, I don't see any evidence for that argument) but she didn't keep Alpha Red on the side just in case like other Sith would have, but wanted it completely removed so it could never be used. I don't think Sith believe in "peace, freedom, justice, and security" for the galaxy unless it gives them more power; those who do say those things and believe them are just fallen, lost beings (Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo.) Anyway, those are my thoughts, and since there's no third option of "Vergere is Vergere," I see her more towards being a Jedi so that's my vote._________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:50 am

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6844Location: Missouri

But we have to keep ourselves from grouping all Sith together as a classic cliche. Sith and Jedi are just like any other group. Their members vary on their reasons, motivations, and beliefs. They simply share some similarities to the group but are by no way bound to it. I think Lumiya and Vegere are an excellent example of how Sith can break the classic mold formed by the likes of Sidious and Krayt. Sith can seek galactic peace as much as other Sith would want to conquer it. Some with to enslave the Force to their will, while others would want to free it. Also bear in mind that Lumiya was Vegere student, thus some of her views would be different than her master's. Caedus is in turn a byproduct of Lumiya's teachings, which he shares some, but he is also a product of the life he lived before becoming a Sith. Plus there are the very strong influences of Vegere that still linger upon him. In essence, he got a bit of training from both.

One thing that cannot be denied is that Vegere did believe in the Potentium theory, that there is no dark side, only the Force. This is not at odds with the Sith. Their split with the Jedi began because they began using other parts of the Force that the Jedi didn't agree with. They used a broader spectrum of the Force. Vegere may have actually had morals that compelled her to save the Vong from genocide. Perhaps her views of peace in the galaxy stretched as far as to reach all beings, regardless of their origins.

When I read the NJO I always felt that Vegere was a shifty character whose intent was shady and not in line with the views of the Jedi. I would say her actions go beyond the scope of Gray or Rogue Jedi, which brings her into the territory of a Dark Jedi or Sith. Thus the key to labeling her Sith comes about with her relationship with Lumiya. After the fall of Vader and Palpatine, the Sith Order is more or less up for grabs. Anybody can pick up the title and call themselves Sith or try and bring it back the Sith Order. This is how it has always been. When Kaan and his followers died, the Sith were gone. Thus Bane was able to bring it back it whatever shape he so desired. Thus the Sith were redefined. Krayt does the same thing, redefining the Sith and the Order.

Vegere was no different in that she too tried to redefine the Sith Order with Lumiya and Jacen. Either Vegere didn't feel the name was important enough to mention, only that the idea was allowed to flourish, or she ran out of time and had to leave Lumiya to finishing up the work and revealing the truth to Jacen. With Caedus being one faction of the Sith, and Krayt's splinter group on Korriban, the fate of the Sith Order's definition lies in which group survives and dominates the other._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:18 pm

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Rouge77Master

Joined: 22 Mar 2008Posts: 599

Her having been a Sith makes more sense to me. I didn't like her or her actions in NJO, so it was easy for me to accept the claim that she was a Sith they have given in LotF.

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:25 pm

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AushAdministrator

Joined: 12 Nov 2007Posts: 980Location: Midwest, USA

Quote:

Lumiya was Vegere student

Where is this at? I don't remember Vergere ever meeting with Lumiya in the NJO but I assume this is something that Lumiya told Jacen. Maybe it's denial, but I still need more persuasion then the telling of this by Sith.

I agree that the Sith can have a broad description like the Jedi. However, there are still fundamental requirements that make you a Sith or Jedi. Jedi look towards healing and discussing to bring about change whereas Sith (Palpatine, Lumiya, Bane, whoever says "I am Sith") look to bring about change through brute force and making themselves personally more powerful. Of course, Jedi go to war and fight epic battles and want to get stronger; however, the difference is they don't jump right into that ideology, and those who do fall or are killed. The Jedi seek other means along the lines of discussion before jumping right into all out war.

For Vergere, she never seeked personal power. Yes, she was wishy-washy and had some...different methods, but this fundamental desire was missing (and if you can think of a key, then please point it out).

Now, this idea is something that I just came up with and I'll have to work with it some more to iron it out but here's something to go with. What I am trying to think of is a fundamental shared quality between all the groups of Jedi and all the groups of Sith

If I at all sound mean here, I'm not; call it denial, but I do think there's something that connects all Jedi and something that connects all Sith that is why they are separated. If it came down only to what the individuals call themselves (lets say I'm a person who solves all my problems through discussion and not carry a lightsaber but think the word Sith is cooler than Jedi so I call myself a Sith) then there would be no separation. However, Dark Jedi aren't necessarily Sith either so you could think of them as the middle ground, maybe _________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Vergere as a Sith or Jedi

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:15 pm

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Caedus_16Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008Posts: 5226Location: Korriban

Look, the fact is that Vergere is her own thing. She isn't Jedi or Sith, or even part of the Gray order. She's just Vergere. I do think (however) that an official Vergere novel needs to be written, just as a Darth Plageuis novel needs to happen. The EU has been very vague with a couple of characters and it needs to change. They need to get a Vergere story out there and official._________________Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:03 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6844Location: Missouri

The problem with Vergere is that we don't have a lot of concrete information on her. She's mysterious. But it's worth noting that she has always been dark. We do know that she was once a Jedi. And not only did Lumiya say that Vergere was a Sith, but so did the Sith on Korriban. And if anyone would know if she was a Sith it would be the Sith, either Lumiya or Krayt's order. Plus Vergere herself stated that she was no longer a Jedi. That statement doesn't make her a Sith, but it doesn't help.

One further note of interest is that Sith are usually terrible healers, yet Vergere could heal with her tears. Also she appeared as a Force ghost to Jacen, a feat supposedly not possible for Sith._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:41 pm

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AushAdministrator

Joined: 12 Nov 2007Posts: 980Location: Midwest, USA

Darth Skuldren wrote:

One further note of interest is that Sith are usually terrible healers, yet Vergere could heal with her tears. Also she appeared as a Force ghost to Jacen, a feat supposedly not possible for Sith.

Good points to consider; I forgot about both.

Vergere is her own thing (as Caedus_16 points out from, I believe, Traitor). I don't think they should have either Plagueis or Vergere book because these characters are better left in shadows. They brought Boba Fett into the light, and although it seems to be very popular, I've lost all interest in the character now (of course, some of that light comes from his appearance in Episode II). I wanted the Plagueis book, but after reading the New Chronology concerning Anakin Skywalker's birth, I'm glad they canceled it._________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:22 am

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Jedi_ChristopherEUC Staff

Joined: 04 Mar 2008Posts: 280Location: Memphis, TN

I think Vergere herself was confused about a few things. I think she was sort of on a grey area between the two.
________
Smoking kills

Last edited by Jedi_Christopher on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:46 am

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AushAdministrator

Joined: 12 Nov 2007Posts: 980Location: Midwest, USA

Jedi_Christopher wrote:

I think Vergere herself was confused about a few things. I think she was sort of on a grey area between the two.

Who isn't confused on a few things? Luke is constantly confused on how to approach certain situations but that's acceptable. If you think you know the answers to everything, then there's a problem. Vergere implied that her view only works for her and others need to come to terms with a view that works for them. And everyone does have a grey area but it all depends on which side you allow to dominate your life, even though allowing either light or dark to dictate is not a good life._________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:26 pm

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Darth SkuldrenModerator

Joined: 04 Feb 2008Posts: 6844Location: Missouri

Did the Jedi vs Sith book ever state that she was a Sith? Outside cannon like that would pretty much seal the case once and for all. Personally I don't see any problem with her being Sith, I like the idea of more varied Sith outlooks. Just because a person is a Sith doesn't mean they should be evil._________________
"I believe toys resonate with us as humans, we can hold them them, it's tactile, real! They are totems for our extended beliefs and imaginations. A fetish for ideas that hold as much interest and passion as old religious relics for some. We display them in our homes. They show who we are. They are signals for similar thinking people. A way we connect with each other...and I guess thats why I do toys. That connection." -Ashley Wood

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:41 pm

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AushAdministrator

Joined: 12 Nov 2007Posts: 980Location: Midwest, USA

I see the Sith as much more narrow then Dark Jedi. Sith is a certain branch of Dark Jedi and maybe that's the missing link I've been looking for. I haven't read the Jedi vs Sith book but making Vergere Sith or Jedi doesn't make sense; she seems neutral and leaning towards light but her dark moments is what keeps me from saying all out.

Let me clarify: Vergere is neither Jedi nor Sith but Vergere (her words). As I just said, saying she is either is wrong but saying she leans toward either is okay, and she seems to lean more towards light than dark. Plus, do you believe the words of Lumiya and the hidden Sith? She may have lived amongst them to learn their secrets and philosophy, but she also lived amongst the Jedi and Yuuzhan Vong and she belongs to neither of those groups either._________________"Changes are nice--but so is continuity!"

"Then you saved my life. How disgusting. How unfortunate."
"No, don't gush on so. It was nothing, really."

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:41 pm

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Darth JudicarKnight

Joined: 02 Feb 2008Posts: 433Location: Lehon (the Unknown World)

Honestly, I think they should just leave her as an enigma. Some things are better left to imagination._________________
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
-The Code of the Sith

In mourning . . .

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm

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Al_McLeudPadawan

Joined: 26 Apr 2008Posts: 17Location: Moscow

I suppose that Verger was neither sith nor jedi and she tought Jasen that te Force doesn't have sides but is Unifying

And this is a mistake of authors of LofT to make Verger to be a sith

But... Lumia said Verger told her that she was a sith, May be Verger lies to Lumia?_________________"Down here, in the never-ending electric twilight, time had a different meaning altogether. It wasn't something to he scheduled, something to be quantified in terms of seconds, minutes, or hours. It was measured much more simply: you either had enough, or not enough," - Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight