Mass Effect 3

Winning via super weapon is irrelevant. That's not the problem. The problem is that it's a super weapon that the enemy knows all about, but for no fathomable reason does anything to neutralise.

You can ONLY win on the Catalyst's terms. It lets you win. Refuse eventually yields a win, but it's technical. The next cycle wins, you lose.

To labour the point, it's BS that Shepard simply buys into everything that Starjar tells her/him. Starjar couldn't possibly be telling porkies, it's not like you've got it by the balls or anything. Not like you've just parked a Galactic Reaper-killer on its doorstep. Why would it possibly lie to you......

Like I said, I can live with high EMS Destroy, just. It just grates that you go there knowing that it's based on the Bratalyst being incredibly stupid in even telling you about that option. A contrived technical win, handed to you via timely logic-fail on Space Casper's part. An intelligence that's smart enough to take down the Leviathans and every sentient race since, just happens to brain-fart at the pivotal moment in the game. Yeah.....right.

Winning via super weapon is irrelevant. That's not the problem. The problem is that it's a super weapon that the enemy knows all about, but for no fathomable reason does anything to neutralise.

Click to expand...

They did do something about when they keeping sitting on the final component needed to make it work for centuries every time they invade the galaxy.

Remember with out the Catalyst aka the Citadel the Crucible is useless, and the standard Reaper invasion starts by taking the Citadel in a massive surprise attack while also destroying the galactic government followed by hunting down and exterminating whats left of the galaxy's civilization.

The only reason they didn't do that until later in Mass Effect 3 was that the Citadel relay was taken out of play by the Protheans, and then later Shepard killing Sovereign.

So they really don't have to sabotage the plans since their usual invasion plan makes finishing the device impossible.

And its not like they wouldn't notice that the plans call of the use of something that has the same name as the AI controlling them.

Besides an "unconventional refuse option" sounds like wishful thinking about a magical deus ex machina that can be pulled out at the 11th hour so as to get by fact the the Reapers can't be beaten without some ultimate weapon one of the previous cycles may have come up with that the games previously hinted at.

They did do something about when they keeping sitting on the final component needed to make it work for centuries every time they invade the galaxy.

Remember with out the Catalyst aka the Citadel the Crucible is useless, and the standard Reaper invasion starts by taking the Citadel in a massive surprise attack while also destroying the galactic government followed by hunting down and exterminating whats left of the galaxy's civilization.

The only reason they didn't do that until later in Mass Effect 3 was that the Citadel relay was taken out of play by the Protheans, and then later Shepard killing Sovereign.

So they really don't have to sabotage the plans since their usual invasion plan makes finishing the device impossible.

And its not like they wouldn't notice that the plans call of the use of something that has the same name as the AI controlling them.

Besides an "unconventional refuse option" sounds like wishful thinking about a magical deus ex machina that can be pulled out at the 11th hour so as to get by fact the the Reapers can't be beaten without some ultimate weapon one of the previous cycles may have come up with that the games previously hinted at.

Click to expand...

Basic risk management. They used their standard invasion MO in the previous cycle and the result was that the Protheans managed to build the device and nearly deploy it. At that point why would you possibly leave to chance the possibility of the next race taking things further and deploying it? The Reapers effectively ended up sitting on the final component in this cycle but that didn't prevent the alliance from building the Crucible, deploying it, and actually delivering it. Something that would have been rendered meaningless had they either sabotaged the plans or developed countermeasures. Again, you can claim arrogance on the part of the Reapers, but considering the incremental positive progression of the plans through the cycles it was inevitable that eventually someone would build it and use it. That goes beyond arrogance and strays into stupid.

Again, comes back to risk management - given that the last cycle were close to deploying the weapon, was it safer for them to do nothing on the assumption that their plan would still work, or would you put mitigating plans in place to reduce the risk? Mitigating plans by the way which would likely have required little effort on their part. They'd just wiped out galactic civilisation, were they really THAT desperate to get back to dark space for their millennia-long nap?

Re unconventional refuse, they needed the Catalyst because the Catalyst was part of the Citadel. They needed the Citadel because it was a huge source of power. Find another source of power. Or find a way of rendering the Catalyst irrelevant in being able to harness the Citadel's power. You found the Leviathans FFS, they've been around even longer than the Catalyst and the Reapers. They're the original apex race and they claim to be technologically superior to the Reapers, yet they have nothing to contribute to this end?

The whole ending shambles is incredibly illogical. Common sense seems to go out of the window on all sides in a last ditch battle of the dumbest.

The Citadel wasn't a source of power, it was a mechanism. The Crucible was the power source; as was explicitly stated.

Regarding the Catalyst: that was just a code name given to the final component by the Protheans (translated into English, obviously), the AI probably only knew of the name because it learned it via TIM. It pretty clear it doesn't have a name for itself because it doesn't need one, it just need it's stated purpose: "I bring order to chaos."

As for it knowing of the Crucible; it explicitly says that it first learned of the concept several cycles ago and believed it had been eradicated. It even admitted it underestimated the organics. Probably one of the main reasons it was unaware that the Protheans had it was that their methods of data storage and retrieval was uniquely tied to their physiology and not something that could be read or understood by a machine.

Indeed this is one of the main plot point in ME1. The whole reason Sovereign was using Saren they way it did was because it needed an organic interface. Just like they needed Shiala to acquire the cipher from the Thorian and Benezia to get the relay co-ordinates from the rachni.

I stand corrected on the 'power/mechanism' point, it's been a while since I've played the game now.

I'd still use the same argument though - the Citadel was the means by which to amplify the Crucible's already massive power - find another method for amplification. Or find a way to circumvent the Catalyst's role in the use of the Citadel.

The Catalyt's belief that the plan had been eradicated was conveniently naive - presumably it thought that the plans had been eradicated in previous cycles too. Certainly alarm bells should have rung when it became clear to the vanguard that they were losing the ability to take the Citadel at the beginning of the next cycle. Purely from a logical POV, if you know that there were plans out there that could build a weapon to stop you in your tracks the moment you set foot in the galaxy, they just required the use of the Citadel, which you no longer have access to, then your first step upon entering the galaxy would surely have been to take the Citadel as quickly as possible. Especially considering that the alliance had already proven capable of defending it to a limited degree.

Re the Protheans - the Reapers became aware of the device when certain factions amongst the Protheans were indoctrinated. At this point it would have become clear that any belief that the plans had previously been eradicated were wrong, therefore they were also prone to being wrong in any attempt to eradicate them ahead of future cycles. Equally, when Saren discovers that some Protheans survived on Ilos after the previous cycle, Protheans who were knowledgable enough to recognise the Citadel trap, surely there's at least a consideration here of "what else might they have done before they died out?" - hidden plans about the death machine that requires use of the Citadel, which they no longer have access to? For all intents and purposes, had the plans been discovered earlier then they could literally have built the Crucible right next to the Citadel and waited for the Reapers to enter the galaxy - granted, they wouldn't know that they'd be confronted by the Catalyst when they tried, but realistically, how would that have gone anyway? It apparently puts its hands in the air when Shepard confronts it at the end of ME3 anyway, even when it could seemingly win easily. Just by letting Shepard die. The reason for the Catalyst coming to the conclusion that its "solution" no longer worked was only a natural extension of what the previous cycles had been building towards. Even then though, I'm not sure how it comes to the conclusion that it won't work anymore - finish this cycle, sabotage the plans, re-establish the link between the Citadel and dark space, then nap time.

Another way? You mean there's *another* linked network of devices capable of channelling massive amounts of dark energy, spread throughout the galaxy and all controlled from a central hub? Well why did you say so!?

As for what the Catalyst did and didn't know; it's not omnipotent. Never claimed to be. If they had reason the believe the plans were still out there, then they would have made sure that they were eradicated before they returned to dark space. The fact that they didn't means they had no reason to have such a belief. QED.

They also didn't know that Javik survived. That the facility on Ilos managed to wait out the Prothean extinction and board the Citadel. Or that the Leviathan were still out there in hiding. Honestly, those seem to be greater oversights then the existence of some encrypted data file buried in a massive archive that's damn near impossible for non-Protheans to even comprehend, much less decipher.

That aside, being aware the organics are building something they think will wipe out the Reapers isn't the same as actually knowing how it works, or even caring. Indeed, when you speak to the Catalyst, it's implicit that it's just then analysing it's capabilities. Something it couldn't do until after it had engaged with the Citadel.

Remember that the Catalyst is an AI. It thinks like a machine. After a billion or more years, tens of thousands of cycles, it's had a 100% success rate in it's harvests. It not capable of being paranoid about what else *might* be out there the threaten it because so far nothing has. It can only conceive of such possibilities in terms of infinitesimally small statistical provabilities. In short: "no data available".

Another way? You mean there's *another* linked network of devices capable of channelling massive amounts of dark energy, spread throughout the galaxy and all controlled from a central hub? Well why did you say so!?

As for what the Catalyst did and didn't know; it's not omnipotent. Never claimed to be. If they had reason the believe the plans were still out there, then they would have made sure that they were eradicated before they returned to dark space. The fact that they didn't means they had no reason to have such a belief. QED.

They also didn't know that Javik survived. That the facility on Ilos managed to wait out the Prothean extinction and board the Citadel. Or that the Leviathan were still out there in hiding. Honestly, those seem to be greater oversights then the existence of some encrypted data file buried in a massive archive that's damn near impossible for non-Protheans to even comprehend, much less decipher.

That aside, being aware the organics are building something they think will wipe out the Reapers isn't the same as actually knowing how it works, or even caring. Indeed, when you speak to the Catalyst, it's implicit that it's just then analysing it's capabilities. Something it couldn't do until after it had engaged with the Citadel.

Remember that the Catalyst is an AI. It thinks like a machine. After a billion or more years, tens of thousands of cycles, it's had a 100% success rate in it's harvests. It not capable of being paranoid about what else *might* be out there the threaten it because so far nothing has. It can only conceive of such possibilities in terms of infinitesimally small statistical provabilities. In short: "no data available".

Click to expand...

Which probably why they seemed so surprise when Shepard wrecked most of their plans.

Another way? You mean there's *another* linked network of devices capable of channelling massive amounts of dark energy, spread throughout the galaxy and all controlled from a central hub? Well why did you say so!?

Click to expand...

There's no reason you can't use the existing relay network. It's a network, network's can be hacked. If only you'd managed to recruit a race of AIs who knew their way around networks like the back of their hand....Clearly the relay network's plot armour was as invincible as Kai Leng's earlier in the game!

As for what the Catalyst did and didn't know; it's not omnipotent. Never claimed to be. If they had reason the believe the plans were still out there, then they would have made sure that they were eradicated before they returned to dark space. The fact that they didn't means they had no reason to have such a belief. QED.

Click to expand...

And again you go back to basic risk management - the plans existed for 'several' cycles - presumably at the end of each cycle the Reapers/Catalyst would have thought them eradicated, otherwise you're leaving a loaded gun for someone to pick up in the next cycle. The fact that the plans repeatedly permeated across cycles should in itself prompt countermeasures. This is a race that was intelligent enough to create the Citadel trap - but one that isn't smart enough to realize that you can't possibly completely guarantee that something like these plans can be eradicated. The only action completely within their own control was to try and nerf the plans for following cycles.

They also didn't know that Javik survived. That the facility on Ilos managed to wait out the Prothean extinction and board the Citadel. Or that the Leviathan were still out there in hiding. Honestly, those seem to be greater oversights then the existence of some encrypted data file buried in a massive archive that's damn near impossible for non-Protheans to even comprehend, much less decipher.

Click to expand...

This doesn't really matter - by the time of the invasion the Reapers are well aware that the Citadel trap has failed, and thanks to Saren/Sovereign, they know exactly why. This is the first time in countless cycles that the Citadel trap has failed. From the get-go it puts them at less of an advantage than they've enjoyed in previous cycles. For a race supposedly as intelligent as the Reapers you'd think that this might prompt some sort of urgency. They've lost direct access to the Citadel. The very thing that they know is crucial in the designs of the weapon aimed to be used against them. What exactly happens if the Crucible arrives at the Citadel and there's no Reaper fleet to stop them? The Reapers are clearly concerned enough at the end of the game when TIM tells them that the Crucible is coming, enough to seize the Citadel and defend it with the vast majority of their fleet. Why bother doing that if the Catalyst can so easily repel any attempts to use the Citadel to activate the weapon? On the other hand, if they're concerned that the Catalyst might not be able to repel such an attempt then why would they not take the Citadel straight away once the invasion is under way?

That aside, being aware the organics are building something they think will wipe out the Reapers isn't the same as actually knowing how it works, or even caring. Indeed, when you speak to the Catalyst, it's implicit that it's just then analysing it's capabilities. Something it couldn't do until after it had engaged with the Citadel.

Click to expand...

Which is utterly ridiculous. Not your point, but the fact that this IS true. But again, this is just reflective of convenient naivety on the Catalyst/Reaper's part. They had access to the plans in at least the previous cycle, and most likely cycles before that. The last cycle, at least, was via indoctrinated agents - why wouldn't one of the first questions upon indoctrination be "Explain to us in detail exactly what this device is and how it works"? even that aside, the Reapers aren't intelligent enough to figure out a way of building a scale version and testing its capabilities? The whole notion of the plans seemingly being beyond either the Reapers' ability to understand, or beyond their will to care, is equally ludicrous.

Remember that the Catalyst is an AI. It thinks like a machine. After a billion or more years, tens of thousands of cycles, it's had a 100% success rate in it's harvests. It not capable of being paranoid about what else *might* be out there the threaten it because so far nothing has. It can only conceive of such possibilities in terms of infinitesimally small statistical provabilities. In short: "no data available".

Click to expand...

Performance in previous harvests is largely irrelevant. It will simply follow a routine. or at least it would, until it encounters a change within the parameters of that routine. The Crucible plans (or whatever they're called in the previous cycles) are a new element. At first, they probably didn't determine that they were a threat. As they re-appeared across cycles, then that threat should escalate. Despite their seemingly best efforts, the plans DO permeate across cycles - the probability of the plans re-appearing in THIS cycle are likely far from infinitesimal. You're effectively suggesting that the most advanced race of artificial intelligence ever created, in the history of the galaxy, cannot undertake basic risk analysis, something that countless software packages can do today?

Action wouldn't solely be determined by probability/likelihood, but also impact - in this event, whilst the likelihood may appear to be low, the impact is significantly high. A lack of mitigating measures against a high-impact risk, low likelihood or not, is just asking for it, and an incredibly basic fail, for an intelligence that is supposedly superior. At this rate Shepard might as well have turned up on the Citadel armed with a Macbook and an Excel spreadsheet full of Macro commands! Makes about as much sense!

There's no reason you can't use the existing relay network. It's a network, network's can be hacked. If only you'd managed to recruit a race of AIs who knew their way around networks like the back of their hand....Clearly the relay network's plot armour was as invincible as Kai Leng's earlier in the game!

Click to expand...

The relay network isn't a network as in a computer network; it's a network in the base definition, "a system of lines, wires, etc., that are connected to each other".

^Exactly. It's made more clear in the codex that the relays are just that; paired 1:1 relays. The Citadel is by design the only device that can control them all.

As for the previous cycles, the truth is, we don't know exactly what complications the Reapers may or may not have encountered. All we have to go on is Vigil's account of how the Protheans were caught unawares and the assumption that all previous cycles ended more or less the same way. But that's all it is, an assumption. Despite Vendetta's assertion that the cycles followed the same patterns of revolution and dissolution, those patterns could have been expressed in almost countless fashions.

Just comparing the "Citadel Council" civilization with what little we know of the Prothean Empire it's apparent that not everything goes "exactly" as the pattern dictates.

I was actually watching Sagan's classic Cosmos series the other day and the episode in which he talks about the Heike Crabs and it occurred to me that a similar process of unintentional artificial selection could have taken place with the Catalyst and galactic civilization. Eventually, totally without intending to do, the Reaper harvests produced civilizations adapted to overcome the harvests. This is as good an analogy as any I can think of to account for how the crucible could have passed almost blindly from one civilization to the next. There way also be shades of chaos theory in there too, but it'd take someone much more well versed than I to expound on the subject.

There's also the fact that ideas are notoriously difficult to destroy. Admittedly in the real world we've never been able to test this principle on such a scale and across gulfs of extinction, but the principle is basically sound. The closest we've come is the dark ages, where despite centuries of neglect, obscurity and the best efforts of book burners and witch hunters, valid scientific knowledge from antiquity has managed to survive into the present day. Likewise there's a plethora of very well known and astonishingly wide spread cultural stories who's true origins are so old that it's damn near impossible to even know from whence they came, much less whether they have any basis in fact.

I watched it and wasn't overly impressed. It seemed like an exercise in ego for the people narrating the video. I didn't want to see them staring at a cityscape, I wanted some more defined info about when this game takes place, what the cause of the story is. Pure exploration is great, but it's been the conflict that has always made Mass Effect the great experience that it is. I hope the next info they release is more about the game and where the franchise is going.

True, but half of EA's press conference was like that. It seems like EA only has 3 non-sports games scheduled to come out this year, so to fill time they made a bunch of these behind the scenes teasers for games that they clearly weren't ready to showcase yet. It was a bit weird.

Yeah, as vague as it was, it did at least seem to intimate that it will be a continuation of the previous games, not a prequel.

What actually got my attention was the mention of a totally new region of space and a galaxy map that appeared NOT to be displaying the Milky-way. It did actually occur to be a while back that 1) logically, there'd have to a twin of the Citadel or something similar sitting out in dark space. And 2) if they got control of it, they could send it out to another nearby galaxy and gain an instant beachhead.

Kind of an ironic scenario when you think about it, assuming the other galaxy is also populated.

On a related topic, the new stuff for Dragon Age Inquisition continues to impress. The mechanics of the dragon battle looked especially promising. It always bugged me in that in the previous games there was no real strategy in dealing with a high dragon besides tank and spank. Even then, attacking with melee always felt like an exercise in frustration with the unstoppable knock-backs and grabs.

Also, getting back to Mass Effect, it sounded as if the actress that played Traynor will be the voice of the female Inquisitor...one of them anyway. Word is that they'll be a total of four voices (two per gender) since obviously a Qunari or a dwarf isn't likely to have the same voice as a human or elf.
Still, good to have her back as she did a great job in ME3.

Oh and the new IP announcement... -_-
Wake me when they actually have something to talk about.

I've (years late I know) been playing the Dragon Age games. Took awhile for me to get into Origins - I'm spoiled for fully-voiced protagonists these days - but I I've fallen in love with that verse too.

Yeah, the build up to DAI has gotten me revisiting the games too. Partly because I just read the novels 'Asunder' & 'Masked Empire' back to back and it got me back into the world of Thedas, but also because I noticed that for some reason, I never finished Awakening with my main Warden. So I went back and played it all the way through, then went on to do both the Golems of Amgarrak and Witch Hunt DLCs before importing into DA2 for a new playthrough.

I also have an unfinished dwarf noble save I may use to explore some choices I never got around too (siding with the werewolves, Templars etc.) So I'll have a good selection of saves to import when they release Dragon Age Keep.

ME4 I'm a little more sceptical about. While I wasn't anywhere near as pissed off as some at the ME3 ending fiasco, it did lessen my trust and faith in the ME team to deliver what they promise.

Are the novels any good? Odd that you never finished Awakening. Golems of Amgarrak is fun but I don't think there's any larger point to it that I've seen, so I skipped it for the playthrough I'm doing now (currently a female mage in DA2). Witch Hunt is a must of course. I don't know that I could ever side fully with the werewolves, but so far I've resolved the conflict peacefully both times. Siding with the Templars would be interesting especially depending on what you choose in DA2.