"So it may seem that we're back to square one in the long running effort to pinpoint the origin of Y-haplogroup R1b-L51, which encompasses almost 100% of modern-day Western European R1b lineages, and thus probably ranks as Europe's most common Y-haplogroup. But at this stage I'd say no, because R1b-L51 is a subclade of R1b-M269, of which the oldest sample comes from the Bronze Age steppe. In fact, as can be seen in the above PCA, this sample is sitting in exactly the right spot to be one of those pastoralists who overran "Old Europe", or at least a very close relative thereof.Or am I wrong? Feel free to let me know in the comments."

The sample that Davidski is referring to is 10429 and he was a member of the Z2103>Z2108 subgroup.

If L51 originated in the Ukraine show us the proof. If the descendants of U106 and P312 originated in and expanded in the Ukraine show us the proof. There is no U106 nor P312 YSNP trail from the Ukraine to western Europe.

And stop the claptrap about autosomal dna. It has no relevance whatsoever on the Y chromosome.

Dartraighe, I wrote that in my FB page and in letters on my mailing list. It seems to me that at “Eurogenes blog” they are desperate:

One day everyone shall admit that I was right in all my theories and with ten years (at least ) in advance.Ted Kandell from “YFull page at FB”:Just a few days ago, we saw a big study from FTDNAs's co-owners and partners about "Jewish" Y-DNA. This study, supposedly about the Ashkenazi Levites, actually had dozens of Big Ys (as well as Complete Genomics WGSs). Here is a DIRECT COMPARISON of an Illumina 30x (Build 37) Whole Genome Sequence, publicly available in the SGDP, with a Big Y FOR THE *SAME* INDIVIDUAL. This person is a Samaritan from one of the 4 remaining Samaritan Y lineages. He is J-Y27539 under J2a-CTS900, in the same clade as the Late Bronze Age European from Hungary, BR2. This same individual has 5 MORE SNPs with a 30x Illumina Whole Genome Sequence as with the Big Y, which gives a corrected tMRCA difference of 757 years! […] The whole purpose of the study was to "prove" that the "Ashkenazi Levite" R-Y2619 clade is "Middle Eastern" by comparing the Medieval tMRCAs with other "Ashkenazi" Y clades. These could in fact be hundreds of years off, which makes a very big difference in the calculations. *All* studies that use the Big Y are suspect […] Ironically, it was the SAME person who was there when it was sent to FTDNA from Israel that paid for the Big Y, not even knowing that the individual already had a WGS.Samuel Andrews from “Eurogenes blog”:As we get more and more ancient DNA, I bet we'll learn mHG H descends from the very specific Paleolithic population that contributed greatly to modern West Eurasians like mHG U5 decends from WHG. But because mHG H is so widespread and is popular in such distinct populations people have a hard time imagining at one time it was specific to one population/genetic cluster.Ryan from “Eurogenes blog”;If the CWC ancestry is overwhelmingly from women then it's probably not from CWC/steppe men, and instead Z2103 would have been the one that introgressed into the steppe from WHG-like populations.

Gioiello wrote:Dartraighe, I wrote that in my FB page and in letters on my mailing list. It seems to me that at “Eurogenes blog” they are desperate:

One day everyone shall admit that I was right in all my theories and with ten years (at least ) in advance.Ted Kandell from “YFull page at FB”:Just a few days ago, we saw a big study from FTDNAs's co-owners and partners about "Jewish" Y-DNA. This study, supposedly about the Ashkenazi Levites, actually had dozens of Big Ys (as well as Complete Genomics WGSs). Here is a DIRECT COMPARISON of an Illumina 30x (Build 37) Whole Genome Sequence, publicly available in the SGDP, with a Big Y FOR THE *SAME* INDIVIDUAL. This person is a Samaritan from one of the 4 remaining Samaritan Y lineages. He is J-Y27539 under J2a-CTS900, in the same clade as the Late Bronze Age European from Hungary, BR2. This same individual has 5 MORE SNPs with a 30x Illumina Whole Genome Sequence as with the Big Y, which gives a corrected tMRCA difference of 757 years! […] The whole purpose of the study was to "prove" that the "Ashkenazi Levite" R-Y2619 clade is "Middle Eastern" by comparing the Medieval tMRCAs with other "Ashkenazi" Y clades. These could in fact be hundreds of years off, which makes a very big difference in the calculations. *All* studies that use the Big Y are suspect […] Ironically, it was the SAME person who was there when it was sent to FTDNA from Israel that paid for the Big Y, not even knowing that the individual already had a WGS.Samuel Andrews from “Eurogenes blog”:As we get more and more ancient DNA, I bet we'll learn mHG H descends from the very specific Paleolithic population that contributed greatly to modern West Eurasians like mHG U5 decends from WHG. But because mHG H is so widespread and is popular in such distinct populations people have a hard time imagining at one time it was specific to one population/genetic cluster.Ryan from “Eurogenes blog”;If the CWC ancestry is overwhelmingly from women then it's probably not from CWC/steppe men, and instead Z2103 would have been the one that introgressed into the steppe from WHG-like populations.

GioielloOur focus is on the Y haplogroup R1b. The ancient evidence shows that P312 in the form of L21 expanded in Germany,France and Britain 4,500 ybp. U152 expanded in Italy and DF27 in Iberia. There is no evidence to show that any of these subgroups expanded in the Steppe, in Hungary or Poland. The massive migration of R1b from the Steppe is a myth. L51 was only one family Y line at the time of this "Steppe" migration. We do not have enough ancient dna evidence to determine the expansion of U106. Only two samples have shown up so far and we would need hundreds.

Inigo"M269 is absent in Europe before 2800 BC. After 2800 BC it goes very rapidly to high frequency, always associated with a very clear signal of steppe ancestry in the autosomes. I don't know where R1b or R1b-M269 originated (as you say, they might have originated outside the steppe), but it is now very clear that the M269 appearance in Europe is associated with the steppe migration in the 3rd millennium BC."

M269 died 1,000s of years before the "Steppe" migration.

The reason that L51 is missing from West Europe until 2,800 BC is because L51 was only one family and finding any of the bottlenecked L51 single family clan it would be like looking for a needle in a massive haystack.

One family is not a massive migration, LOL

And the Villabruna clan is the reason that people from eastern Europe has similar dna to people in western Europe.

Some genetic scientists would suggest that one R1b-L51 family left the Steppe 6,000 years ago and their descendants ended up in western Europe after 1,000 years on the trail. This L51 family was bottlenecked until the birth of their western European descendants and had 17 mutations that every one of their descendants in western Europe carry today. This is indicative of a single line of descent. This one L51 family left no descendants or any evidence whatsoever on this journey from the Sok River to Germany, France and Iberia etc. And then around 4,900 years ago this one L51 families descendants spawned three major branches that expanded all over western Europe.

There is no evidence of a massive migration of R1b into western Europe nomatter what the autosomal dna record shows. It is also possible that one bottlenecked R1b family remained anonymous in western/central Europe until the early BA and expanded with the birth of the Bell Beaker Culture.

Just like M222 which was bottlenecked for 2,300 years and for reasons unknown to us this branch mushroomed around 2,000 years ago in Ireland. It is now one of the most prolific branches in Ireland today but was really an anonymous line for more than half its existance. The diversity that we see in the M222 YSTR haplotypes only occured within the last 2,000 years due to the fact that the M222 group belonged to a single line of descent before then.

A poster"From ancient perspective the L21 based Bell Beakers basically replaced the "native" farmers, who replaced the "native" hunter-gatherers for the most part."

L21 is the most common haplogroup in Ireland today, did they replace all the other dna groups? Did M222 replace all the other dna groups in Ulster? They are the most prolific groups in Ireland today. 2,000 years ago they were not. That does not always point towards an invasion.

I2b and other dna groups live on in Ireland still. We still await the results of the 50 ancient dna samples that were tested in Ireland. There was no wipe out in Ireland nor in western Europe.

If the "steppe people" were looking for new pastures then Italy certainly was not the place to migrate to.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SteppeIn physical geography, a steppe is an ecoregion, in the montane grasslands and shrublands and temperate grasslands, savannas and shrublands biomes, characterized by grassland plains without trees apart from those near rivers and lakes.

dartraighe wrote:If the "steppe people" were looking for new pastures then Italy certainly was not the place to migrate to.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SteppeIn physical geography, a steppe is an ecoregion, in the montane grasslands and shrublands and temperate grasslands, savannas and shrublands biomes, characterized by grassland plains without trees apart from those near rivers and lakes.

If people were incapable of adaptation we would still be hunter gatherers.