If I'm correct Freelancer made something like 800ish gold in one Beta Weekend. While this is no indication on what the average player will be able to make, that's still a lot of gold for 2 days and I would expect most people will have plenty of opportunities to save up for gems.

Was it legitimate? There was a bug with the trading post in BWE2 (and maybe before then) where it paid you double what you actually earned. So you could buy stuff from the trading post, re-sell it, and make a profit.

Was it legitimate? There was a bug with the trading post in BWE2 (and maybe before then) where it paid you double what you actually earned. So you could buy stuff from the trading post, re-sell it, and make a profit.

Yes it's legitimate, he streamed it I think. Well BWE2 doesn't really matter anyway, he did 500gold + 13000gems in BWE3 anyway Almost got every dyes in the game too.

But that's a big outlier, it just shows there is profit to be made using the TP (as expected).
There is also something big to take into consideration when talking about freelancer's money, he is the GM of TL and his starting money is from the guild bank (donations). The way he was able to manipulate some things on the market were only doable because he had a lot of cash to invest in these strategies (he mentions on a podcast that he started with around 50gold).

If you start from scratch you will be competing with a lot more people than he was (and will be) because the loopholes you're exploiting will be the same as a shitload of people. And obviously since your investment is lower, the benefit with be lower in both absolute and relative value.
But I'm still convince you'll make a profit if done right and after a while will be able to play with big money.

It's also a huge commitment he spent many hours on the TP per day, that's not very fun imo .

Tea I'm asumeing this was a prety much unleveled character you took into WvW. All event rewards, including those in WvW scale to your true level. At level 5 a successful event may only award a handful of copper, at level 40 that same event awards a couple silver. At once point during BWE2 I spent the better part of a night in WvW on my engineer. Started at level 35. By the end of my play session (about 8 hours) I'd gained 7 levels and about 4 gold. Some of that was vendoring junk loot but alot of it was from takeing keeps camps and whatever else was in the way of that zerg.

I'm about halfway through the video (it's 2 hours). He makes a lot of good points, but I also think he's wrong on certain things. A lot of his theory is based on WoW and its clones. However, since GW2 is not that similar to WoW, especially with respect to racing to the level cap, his theory on crafting materials won't hold up as well as it would in a game like WoW. I did enjoy the topics on the gem angle, since I didn't think about that, having been used to only in-game currency.

I'm about halfway through the video (it's 2 hours). He makes a lot of good points, but I also think he's wrong on certain things. A lot of his theory is based on WoW and its clones. However, since GW2 is not that similar to WoW, especially with respect to racing to the level cap, his theory on crafting materials won't hold up as well as it would in a game like WoW. I did enjoy the topics on the gem angle, since I didn't think about that, having been used to only in-game currency.

Also, why is the woman on that show? She seems completely clueless.

Some of it is based on BWE, at least for tier 1 and 2 materials behaviours. Since it's all theory and the game isn't released, each one is entitled to believe in his own theory. The thing to remember though is even if he ends up being wrong on something that's just one strategy among many.

As for the girl she is a regular guest of the show (and more on the casual side of things) and the host admitted on youtube that he should have been better prepared to have questions for her or just not invite her at all this time.

Some of it is based on BWE, at least for tier 1 and 2 materials behaviours. Since it's all theory and the game isn't released, each one is entitled to believe in his own theory. The thing to remember though is even if he ends up being wrong on something that's just one strategy among many.

Oh, no, the tier 1 and 2 stuff was pretty spot-on. His theory on tier 3-5 is what I find a flaw with for two reasons.

First, it's based on the fact that people simply don't collect. This is not fully true. In WoW (before cataclysm) mageweave was overpriced because it was not easily farm-able or obtainable through normal progression. Silk was the cheapest behind the current tier material because you could AoE down SM Cathedral in no time and walk away with a ton of it. In addition, a lot of people while leveling did SM compared to instances that dropped mageweave. So the price is governed not only by the rate of player progress by how closely it's tied with the content they're doing. If there's a mid-level zone that's a bunch of mountain passes or caves, ore will be harvested more often than if the zone is a lot of open fields.

Second, the mid tier crafting material strategy is based on the assumption that people will rush to max level. In WoW and its clones this was true, especially in later expansions where it felt there was no point to the leveling process other than to delay the consumption of content. In GW2, there's no reason to leave that mid-level zone other than to see a different zone. You still get virtually the same benefit for character progression. And because of that, even max level players will go back and farm if they see that material has a higher market price. They can still do the dynamic events in that zone and be rewarded. In addition to that, WvW has a decent amount of mid-level materials in the southern parts of the borderlands and the edges of the eternal battleground.

Oh, no, the tier 1 and 2 stuff was pretty spot-on. His theory on tier 3-5 is what I find a flaw with for two reasons.

First, it's based on the fact that people simply don't collect. This is not fully true. In WoW (before cataclysm) mageweave was overpriced because it was not easily farm-able or obtainable through normal progression. Silk was the cheapest behind the current tier material because you could AoE down SM Cathedral in no time and walk away with a ton of it. In addition, a lot of people while leveling did SM compared to instances that dropped mageweave. So the price is governed not only by the rate of player progress by how closely it's tied with the content they're doing. If there's a mid-level zone that's a bunch of mountain passes or caves, ore will be harvested more often than if the zone is a lot of open fields.

Second, the mid tier crafting material strategy is based on the assumption that people will rush to max level. In WoW and its clones this was true, especially in later expansions where it felt there was no point to the leveling process other than to delay the consumption of content. In GW2, there's no reason to leave that mid-level zone other than to see a different zone. You still get virtually the same benefit for character progression. And because of that, even max level players will go back and farm if they see that material has a higher market price. They can still do the dynamic events in that zone and be rewarded. In addition to that, WvW has a decent amount of mid-level materials in the southern parts of the borderlands and the edges of the eternal battleground.

Well I took his advice as a short-term advice (while I feel your counter arguments are more long term behaviours). Imo it was aimed at players able to get out of the "pack" of player (if you imagine the player population by level, there's usually a huge pack around a level that slowly moves to the max level and then there are other player scattered among the levels above the pack).
I got the advice as: "don't lose your time farming copper, rush to level 35+, then farm and sell that since the pack in not a concurence, players that are above you are likely rushing anyway and won't matter.

Well maybe I interpreted and refined it my way though but I think it makes sense that way ^^ Feel free to disagree

After a while the pack should go up but since you will also go up you should be at the right tier. Then after a while copper will rise out of rock bottom.

I actually do crafting, so I don't really save materials. I've found a few ways to minimize my monetary losses while leveling and recoup those losses. I didn't make a lot, but you do get experience from it. With a bigger bank, I should be able to expand the quantity that I'm selling and make a bigger margin on higher level stuff.

This was how World of Warcraft was in it's earlier days, and people loved it. You had to put immense amounts of effort to actually get what you want, and if that's the case for GW2, I welcome it with open arms. 600.000h playtime to get a couple gems is a "tad" to much, but I suppose you understand what I'm getting at here.

Considering every player can have every crafting discipline there is always going to be a need for those low level materials and they will never truly be "easy" to get because it won't matter if your max level or not you will always be scaled down to the level of the area in question which makes all material's equally viable to farm. With the ability for everyone to have all crafting skills there is always going to be a market for pretty much all crafting materials. Plus you have to remember you're not just competing with the players on your server. You're competing with everyone in the game. If there is 3 million players day 1, You will be fighting with 3 million players to sale... whatever.

I actually do crafting, so I don't really save materials. I've found a few ways to minimize my monetary losses while leveling and recoup those losses. I didn't make a lot, but you do get experience from it. With a bigger bank, I should be able to expand the quantity that I'm selling and make a bigger margin on higher level stuff.

I was often able to make even with crafting (in beta). Crafting +power +vit +tough items and sell those back on the TP for a couple silvers (sometimes take a while for them to sell and sometimes other seller put them underpriced ). Well at least that was true at 50+ but that's easy to reach anyway.

Considering every player can have every crafting discipline there is always going to be a need for those low level materials and they will never truly be "easy" to get because it won't matter if your max level or not you will always be scaled down to the level of the area in question which makes all material's equally viable to farm. With the ability for everyone to have all crafting skills there is always going to be a market for pretty much all crafting materials. Plus you have to remember you're not just competing with the players on your server. You're competing with everyone in the game. If there is 3 million players day 1, You will be fighting with 3 million players to sale... whatever.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say :x If you say every material will be equally worth farming I think you're heavily mistaking or maybe after a long time... maybe.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say :x If you say every material will be equally worth farming I think you're heavily mistaking or maybe after a long time... maybe.

That's exactly what i'm saying. Every single crafting material IS equally worth farming. Why? Because let's think of this from a hypothetical stand point. Let's say, the game starts with 2 million players. The majority of those two million will either have a) Bought the game because of a friend or b) Looked it up. But even still they'll feel they need to get to a higher level .They'll want to rush. They'll want to get to the end of the game to experience the story for what it is. That's just the majority of what players will do and it's understandable. Now I know there are some that will take there time, but those people aren't going to be taking there time to make a ton of money. The people who want to make a ton of money and rule the TP are going to rush.

So then let's say you're a member of that 2m players. You'll be following freelancers advice, that a ton of other people probably are going to do. And you'll rush. Correct? Well then you'll have 2 million players all doing the same thing freelancer said (this is based solely on what you said in your post, i've yet to watch the video because freelancers cockiness makes me feel like punching something but ill get to watching it). Anyways, then you'll have those 2 million players, they've all rushed to the same level. they're all farming the same stuff. all posting it up... it will completely and utterly flood the market with those materials. Which in turn drives down the prices. That's a rule of economy.

So then, you'll have a crap load of players farming the mid level stuff, but who's going to be providing the early stuff that's needed to progress to it? No one. So then would you make more money selling the mid level stuff along with everyone else which is flooding the market and driving the price down? Or would you make more money selling the thing no one else is providing?

Not to mention everyone and there mother is going to want to try out the different races, the different professions. They're going to be experimenting so they'll be a need for those low level materials that no one else will be providing since everyone is farming mid level stuff. Think of every new alt and player as someone who need's those low level materials. You're going to have people who store up and need more, but also people who just buy it all from the get go. Now the thing about farming and why rushing to max level or w/e to rule the economy works is because you can go back and one shot all the mobs and easily control an area. That is not possible in guild wars 2. You cannot get to max level, go to a starter zone and farm the crap out of it. Because you will be leveled down. You will be on equal footing as any other player within the zone.

You also have to take into consideration that at the beginning of the game, how ever many people are playing is who you are competing against. Be that 1 million 1.5 or 2 million you will be competing against those players because every single one can gather just as you can. And if you have 1 million players in the same zone (not possible but hypothetical remember?) and they all converge on the same ore node, and that ore node gives 3 ore to each of those players and those players all post it up in hopes it'll sale. That's 3 million pieces of ore going up at the same time because not only is the economy global here, but every node is instanced for each player. meaning each person has an equal opportunity to take it.

so nut shall
a) it's global you're competing with every single player.
b) every player can gather every material it's no a profession you have to pick you can do it from the get go with the tools.
c) every node is instanced for each player so each and every player can harvest it
d) if you do what everyone else does you won't make any money because that'll just drive the price down more.
e) Every play can have Ever profession meaning even if you focus on only two, You will still have completionists (spelling) who want to have every profession just because, if only for achievements. so there is always, and I mean always, going to be a need for every single crafting material because you cannot easily farm any of them and as such, since everything is viable to everyone will either e1) they'll horde it for if they need it or e2) They won't bother because they'll feel they can get it off the trade post.

and finally
f) You will have players who like the looks of lower tier items, so they'll buy the materials (the low level materials most will deem unworthy of selling) craft it and be a happy panda because they have the look they want even though it's simple.

Every material is viable. I don't have to be a member of a big guild, an alliance, have a youtube channel or claim to be a daytrader to know this. I did on the other hand make sit on 60k gold that took me less than a month to make on wow though and no i didn't raid. I didn't craft. I didn't sell my wares, I farmed and worked the auction house, and that's 60k while consistently giving money, and item's like the darkmoon cards (and trinkets), to friends and giving money/items to the guild in question just because I wanted to be nice. It's economics 101, you do not provide the same thing everyone else is providing and expect to make a profit. You provide what no one else is and that's where you make a profit. You cannot control the TP the way most people can in most games because the more people you have, the harder it's going to be to turn a profit. The final thing to remember and take into consideration is Freelancer was able to make so much money so easily because it WAS beta, people's toons were going to be deleted, So the were more then happy to throw away the money. Because the money didn't matter. It's going to be a very different story when it comes to live. Money will matter, competition will be fierce, and people will be cut throats, and you will have people following exactly what free lancer described (which as i said im basing on your post of rush to 35 and farm those mid level mats).

Besides, if you really want to turn a profit, you might as well wait until people actually have money to burn. Because everyone will be flooding the market with everything they get. It will cause prices to drop it will be at least a month before the market truly stabilizes and you're able to actually play it the best way possible because you will be able to see which niche's aren't filled and fill them. Everyone can do everything, and that alone makes it more difficult to sell things to people if they can just make/get it themselves.

Hmm.. at level 35 I was able to buy whole set of racial armor (6g) and still had 19g left. Then again, I've been using market and crafting professions quite extensively. Without market play I would have maybe 5g at that point - or even less if I need more materials for crafting.

At least at the beginning gold will be quite hard to accumulate for an average player. I doubt that many ppl will have enough gold to purchase the first set of racial armour at 35lvl for 6g (not counting tranStones).

That's exactly what i'm saying. Every single crafting material IS equally worth farming. Why? Because let's think of this from a hypothetical stand point. Let's say, the game starts with 2 million players. The majority of those two million will either have a) Bought the game because of a friend or b) Looked it up. But even still they'll feel they need to get to a higher level .They'll want to rush. They'll want to get to the end of the game to experience the story for what it is. That's just the majority of what players will do and it's understandable. Now I know there are some that will take there time, but those people aren't going to be taking there time to make a ton of money. The people who want to make a ton of money and rule the TP are going to rush.

Yeah of course they won't take there time to make ton of money.

So then let's say you're a member of that 2m players. You'll be following freelancers advice, that a ton of other people probably are going to do. And you'll rush. Correct? Well then you'll have 2 million players all doing the same thing freelancer said (this is based solely on what you said in your post, i've yet to watch the video because freelancers cockiness makes me feel like punching something but ill get to watching it). Anyways, then you'll have those 2 million players, they've all rushed to the same level. they're all farming the same stuff. all posting it up... it will completely and utterly flood the market with those materials. Which in turn drives down the prices. That's a rule of economy.

This is not true at all. Have you played any mmo at all ? Nobody goes at the same speed. The mass (what I refer as a the pack) is always behind people like me that put a bit more hours in the game (well I'm not sure this time since I need to go to a wedding the 25th and then in vacation for a week the 31th But if I was in my normal scedule I would do it). Also Freelancer video will reach 1% of the player population ? So no not really.

So then, you'll have a crap load of players farming the mid level stuff, but who's going to be providing the early stuff that's needed to progress to it? No one. So then would you make more money selling the mid level stuff along with everyone else which is flooding the market and driving the price down? Or would you make more money selling the thing no one else is providing?

Of course if you have everybody farming the same stuff, everything else rises... this is not rocket science. The problem is the context you are creating is for from being realistic. But please do farm copper if you want.

Not to mention everyone and there mother is going to want to try out the different races, the different professions. They're going to be experimenting so they'll be a need for those low level materials that no one else will be providing since everyone is farming mid level stuff. Think of every new alt and player as someone who need's those low level materials. You're going to have people who store up and need more, but also people who just buy it all from the get go. Now the thing about farming and why rushing to max level or w/e to rule the economy works is because you can go back and one shot all the mobs and easily control an area. That is not possible in guild wars 2. You cannot get to max level, go to a starter zone and farm the crap out of it. Because you will be leveled down. You will be on equal footing as any other player within the zone.

First you continue with the same assumption of a phenomenon that is highly unrealistic of a mmo. Second, you are not on equal grounds while being scaled down, you don't one shot mobs but you still wreck mobs (of course it's not the massacre of another mmo).

You also have to take into consideration that at the beginning of the game, how ever many people are playing is who you are competing against. Be that 1 million 1.5 or 2 million you will be competing against those players because every single one can gather just as you can. And if you have 1 million players in the same zone (not possible but hypothetical remember?) and they all converge on the same ore node, and that ore node gives 3 ore to each of those players and those players all post it up in hopes it'll sale. That's 3 million pieces of ore going up at the same time because not only is the economy global here, but every node is instanced for each player. meaning each person has an equal opportunity to take it.

For a certain number of seller there is a certain number of buyers. It doesn't matter if we are 2million seller or 100million seller, the ratio of buyers is fairly constant. The only thing millions of buyer/seller does is make the market more fair because things go more quickly to their fair price.

so nut shall
a) it's global you're competing with every single player.
b) every player can gather every material it's no a profession you have to pick you can do it from the get go with the tools.
c) every node is instanced for each player so each and every player can harvest it
d) if you do what everyone else does you won't make any money because that'll just drive the price down more.
e) Every play can have Ever profession meaning even if you focus on only two, You will still have completionists (spelling) who want to have every profession just because, if only for achievements. so there is always, and I mean always, going to be a need for every single crafting material because you cannot easily farm any of them and as such, since everything is viable to everyone will either e1) they'll horde it for if they need it or e2) They won't bother because they'll feel they can get it off the trade post.

a,b,c,d Obvious
e There is a need but the supply vs demand is not the same for every material this is the difference.

and finally
f) You will have players who like the looks of lower tier items, so they'll buy the materials (the low level materials most will deem unworthy of selling) craft it and be a happy panda because they have the look they want even though it's simple.

Yeah we get that lower mats will have a demand... NOBODY said the opposite ><

Every material is viable. I don't have to be a member of a big guild, an alliance, have a youtube channel or claim to be a daytrader to know this. I did on the other hand make sit on 60k gold that took me less than a month to make on wow though and no i didn't raid. I didn't craft. I didn't sell my wares, I farmed and worked the auction house, and that's 60k while consistently giving money, and item's like the darkmoon cards (and trinkets), to friends and giving money/items to the guild in question just because I wanted to be nice. It's economics 101, you do not provide the same thing everyone else is providing and expect to make a profit. You provide what no one else is and that's where you make a profit. You cannot control the TP the way most people can in most games because the more people you have, the harder it's going to be to turn a profit. The final thing to remember and take into consideration is Freelancer was able to make so much money so easily because it WAS beta, people's toons were going to be deleted, So the were more then happy to throw away the money. Because the money didn't matter. It's going to be a very different story when it comes to live. Money will matter, competition will be fierce, and people will be cut throats, and you will have people following exactly what free lancer described (which as i said im basing on your post of rush to 35 and farm those mid level mats).

Please be less condescending because so far it is not justified. Please go farm copper and green wood, obviously that's your solution. The wow comment isn't relevant.

Besides, if you really want to turn a profit, you might as well wait until people actually have money to burn. Because everyone will be flooding the market with everything they get. It will cause prices to drop it will be at least a month before the market truly stabilizes and you're able to actually play it the best way possible because you will be able to see which niche's aren't filled and fill them. Everyone can do everything, and that alone makes it more difficult to sell things to people if they can just make/get it themselves.

It makes sense but I dislike this strategy. It will earn you the most for your materials but you will have not made money while you wait. And not making money means no investment out of it.

That was a long post to state the obvious based around a hypothetical solution I deem highly unrealistic :/

Overly complicating a simple concept. Made a fortune in WoW using basic principles, and common sense. Its really not hard and i expect to make a fortune in Gw2 aswell.
It doesnt take a massive headstart, or a rush to max level. If you know what you're doing you can break into excisting and established markets with nothing in your pockets but some spare change and a button you dont want to throw out. You never know when you might find that shirt it belonged to...