Time To Change the Revere Narrative

Ben Revere was traded to the Phillies on December 6, 2012 for popular, but injury-bitten starter Vance Worley and former top prospect Trevor May. Revere came to the Phillies fresh off a 2012 where he hit .294/.333/.342 with 40 steals in 49 attempts as a 24-year old player. Revere combined those stats with excellent play in center and right fields for the Twins, stunning crowds with his glove and winning MLB Network’s GIBBY Award.

After an exciting Spring Training where Revere hit .326/.368/.382 with 10 steals in 13 attempts, the Phillies looked like they were getting exactly the player they traded for, except that maybe he was even better, with a year more experience.

You wouldn’t believe that if you read the opinion of fans: here, here, here, here, etc. Some of those comments came in the middle of a four hit game last night, where Revere was almost single-handedly responsible for the game winning run, using his speed to bunt for a base hit, go first to third, and then take home on a ground ball to first base. All of them came during Revere’s recent tear: since May 5, Revere has hit .321/.362/.376 with nine steals in 11 attempts, raising his average by 62 points in that time frame.

The point being: Ben Revere is exactly who he is supposed to be. And he’s a pretty good ball player. It’s time to change the inaccurate narrative surrounding him among Phillies fans.

Let’s explore, if you will, how we got to this “Ben Revere sucks” narrative. Admittedly, Revere had a horrible month of April, hitting just .200/.234/.222 with just five steals in seven attempts and as many GIDP as steals.But this kind of outage is not new for Revere, or any ballplayer for that matter. All hitters go through hot and cold stretches and Revere ended 2012 hitting just .217/.283/.261 with 11 steals in 12 chances in his last 40 games after hitting .317/.346/.370 to that point.

And Revere narrowly missing a series of spectacular catches, including last night and the memorable near miss in Washington, has fans up in arms. Most center fielders don’t get to those balls, yet alone narrowly miss them.

Or it could be that fans are angry that maybe the Phillies gave up too much for Revere in Worley and May. This guy is and our own Corey and Eric Seidman’s pop Randy thinks the trade was horrible for both sides. Yet, Twins fans certainly don’t feel that way, as evident here, here, here, here, etc.

And the numbers don’t bear it out, either. Let’s call a spade a spade: Vance Worley doesn’t look like Major League-caliber pitcher this year, yet alone an asset that would net you a starting 24-year old center fielder. In ten starts, Worley averaged under five innings per appearance, with a 7.21 ERA (highest in the AL among pitchers with 40+ IP), a career-low 4.62 K/9 IP, and a career-high 1.99 WHIP. The pitching-strapped Twins sent their Opening Day starter down to Triple-A, where, to give Worley credit, he threw a five-hit shutout last night.

The 23-year old May is repeating Double-A this season and is fairing a bit better than he did in his first trip with Reading in 2012 but has quietly slipped off the prospect radar. May has a career-low 8.53 K/9 IP, a 4.71 BB/9 IP, a 1.53 WHIP, and a 3.95 ERA – numbers that aren’t bad but ones that certainly aren’t begging for a promotion to Triple-A.

To be fair to the Revere detractors, a lot of Revere’s success comes down to luck. Revere is leading MLB with 64.9% of his batted balls ending up on the ground. And his recent success, batting average-wise, has come because of an inflated .357 BABIP. But this is exactly the type of player Revere is – hit the ball on the ground and run. With the bunt last night, we saw the benefit of having an extra runner, in this case, the winning run, on base. And after turning just 25 in May, Revere has a lot of life left in those legs and projects to be this type of player through his early 30’s.

The most confusing part of this puzzle is the muffled enthusiasm for Revere – he has been well over a .300 hitter in the past 30 days and, short of Domonic Brown and Cliff Lee, the Phillies best player, and came over in a trade that is slowly tipping in the favor of the Phillies with each bunt for a base hit and stolen base. It’s time to assess Revere fairly and give kudos where they are due before a lot of folks end up with egg on their face like they did with Brown. It’s the perfect time to hop on Revere’s bandwagon before it gets too crowded – he is an excellent player that has been defined by an inaccurate narrative.

There have been those who’ve been supportive of Revere, or at least have said, “Give him a chance.” People are always quick to criticize when the entire team is playing poorly, and pretty naturally focus on the newest members and those who are expected to do well but fall even a tiny bit short.

As far as the overall trade, I think it still may be too early to judge. Worley has had success in the past, and may be having a slump just as Revere did. He also still may be dealing with a few issues from his off-season surgery. May is still pretty young. Judging talent over 1/3 of a season isn’t fair to any of these players.

Time will tell with Revere. He may have been pressing early on – eager to impress his new boss and the fans. And no one has egg on their face over Brown yet. He hasn’t proven anything except that he can have 1 great month. If Brown ends up with 23 home runs and 72 rbi’s, and hit’s .280, will that be considered a success? That said, I hope both players continue to improve.

Dave, are you forrest gump or something?
Brown ALREADY has 19 home runs … The only way he ends up with 23 is if he gets hurt or goes into the biggest slump of all time and hits less than 1 per month over the next 4 months.

Dom Brown
April – 3HR while slumping
May – 12 HR red hot
June – 4 HR and not even half way through the month
Even if he only hits 2 more this month and only 4 per month in July/Aug/Sept he’ll still end up with 33 bombs.

He’s hitting an absolute minimum of 30 HR this year. Wouldn’t shock me at all if he hit 40. The kid is the real deal.

Why focus on a young and healthy Dominic Brown, and whether “all” he can do is deliver in the .280s, with 20-something dingers and a bunch of ribbies? If there’s any one position player who so far has kept the Phillies’ season from being a total disaster, it’s Dominic Brown. And why do some others focus on a young and healthy Ben Revere, who may be coming into his own and only last night delivered in such an exciting and promising way?

The Phillies’ problem lies not with the few young and healthy, but with the aged and hobbled core of the team that can no longer deliver runs to adequately support its efffective but stressed starting pitching staff. I’m reasonably certain of only three things in life: (1) death, (2) taxes, and (3) the “senior members” of the Phillies infield will end up with mediocre offensive stats at best, and will continue to be laid up over the course of the season with one affliction or another. I am so tired of the once-in-a-while 450-ft shot into the upper deck … delivered, most of the time, with the bases empty. Give me – please, give me – Revere and Galvis running around the bases, distracting pitchers and belaboring catchers, being moved along by a well -placed bunt, and then scoring on a FC, squeeze or sac fly. In other words, smart baseball. Together with the good pitching that we do have, that prescription at the end of the day will produce wins and pennants – see “St. Louis Cardinals.”

Reputations and past glories will not produce runs – healthy legs, patient bats and hitters who do not represent automatic outs when facing LHP will.

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Shelley Dustin
Spain

Just listen to Anthony Gargano in the afternoon… be prepared to bang your head against a wall… the mid day team on WIP provides the narrative supporting the “Ben Revere sucks” campaign.

Revere’s assets are his legs… period… and you can’t teach speed. A young center fielder with range is a valuable commodity because he’s going to be cheap for a while (he won’t have the offensive numbers to support a huge contract so he won’t break the bank) and his speed will allow you to be creative at the corner outfield positions. Now, I’ll admit he’s not without his flaws. Primarily, he is young and he needs to mature as a player… he’s not 100% sure of himself in the outfield, he doesn’t always give you good at bats (not many players do) and I think he needs to study his craft a little more (lay off the twitter). He’s a good guy… maybe a bit aloof but he’s very likable and he’s going to get better. Baseball is about adjustments… new ballpark, new league, new team, new expectations. We as fans need to understand that and support guys like Revere who are absolutely critical to the success of this team moving forward.

I said it before, I’ll say it again, he’s a slap hitter that isn’t quite as fast on the base-paths as he was advertised to be. He had a great game last night at the plate, and I was delighted to see it. But he’s not a smart baserunner. He slides into second head first when he should be trying to break up DP’s. He also slid into first once, which we were taught is a no-no at the little league level.

He also takes terrible routes in CF. Yes you can argue that he gets to balls most wouldn’t. I would argue that playing the position correctly, as in taking the bounce off the wall instead of going for the spectacular play, holds hitters to doubles instead of triples. or in some cases assists and put-outs at second for slow runners. But of course he would have to have an arm to do that, so I suppose that’s not in the discussion.

I like the guy personally, I have no ill will toward him.
I just don’t think he’s a championship contending team’s center-fielder. And I REALLY hope I am wrong.

Lefty – with all due respect as you are one of the “aces” on this blog – if Revere is a slap hitter (a term you use in the pejorative) … but it turns out he can hit for good-enough average, leg out hits, steal bases, cover great swaths of outfield and he addresses the deficiencies you’ve mentioned that I deem “fixable” (not breaking up DP possibilites, better route running, etc.) … then what the heck do we want? Excluding Dominic Brown and Freddie Galvis, there are five other position player roles we can fill with bashers and bombers and the next Albert Pujols.

I’m not sure of the stats and am too lazy to find out – but Ozzie Smith was probably a slap hitter, and the Cardinals found a way to put up with him.

The best job of breaking up a DP that I’ve ever seen was actualy on a head first slide. The runner raised so much dust that the ump didn’t notice that he’d grabbed both the second baseman’s ankles on the way in.

Still, I’ve always believed head-first slides were a way to ask for an injury. Utley, for example, needed surgery when he tore a thumb ligament sliding that way. Others have had hands stepped on, wrists jammed, and other things.

Pretty much sums up my opinion too, Lefty.
I like the kid as a spark, even a slower one than advertised and he seems well-liked (no small plus in a clubhouse that can get pretty ugly when things are going poorly).
But while he may improve in his decision-making in the field, he’s no Richie Ashburn.
Ashburn had a passable arm supplemented by a quick release and great natural instincts. Revere plays in the most important outfield position yet he’s arguably not much ahead of Dom Brown in fielding and has a little league arm. Asburn was also a disciplined batter who could make contact, consistently hit for average and run the base paths as well as anyone – and he could bunt with the best of them.
It’s one thing to hit few home runs (Ashburn was no power guy), but none?
Revere has so little power that whatever speed he possesses is seldom showcased because he isn’t hitting doubles and triples into the gap. Yeah, yeah, I know, but one or two weeks of great hitting (including a few triples) is still a weak sample to declare him anything more than a moment’s star.
Hopefully, Ben will start getting on base more often than Dee Gordon, because he certainly doesn’t have Gordon’s arm or speed – and Gordon is (or was) the lightest player in the league at 150 lbs, yet even Dee has managed to hit a couple of home runs in his up and down career at the plate.
So yeah, I hope the kid keeps right on hitting, but the hits aren’t going to continue at this blazing pace.
More importantly, I can’t see his shortcomings changing measurably. Arm strength has little to do with a player’s size. It’s something you’re born with (see Clemente, R. & Callison, J.)

I’m convinced that a lot of fans get frustrated with the near misses in CF, but you hit the nail on the head. Most CFs don’t catch those balls. Sometimes he takes bad routes but most times he takes OK routes and simply just can’t get to the balls but since he gets close, it frustrates fans. Also, Revere should have the potential to have a higher BABIP because of his speed – it was .325 for the year last year over 553 PA – so there is hope that he can keep his numbers up where they are now without too much regression

Even with a “great” last 30 days Revere is still the fourth worst starting CF in baseball with respect to WAR (who has played at least 50 games). And the three behind him will all almost certainly finish the season ahead of him.

Whether we have the 5th worst or 8th worst CF in baseball, and that we avoided dumping money on BJ Upton does not provide any support for the assertion that Ben Revere can be a legitimate starting CF for a contending baseball team. Cost controlled or not, it is hard to be successful when your team has such a power suck in CF, who also has a weak arm, doesn’t walk much, and is a questionable route and base runner. Speed simply is not enough…

I agree with you on a lot of your comments. I link the base running, route running and decision making to immaturity, which time and experience should mitigate (hopefully, IMHO).

I think he’s a little more than a slap hitter… certainly not a slugger but he can hit the ball into the gaps and that’s when he’s at his best.

The other CF’s in the NLE (BA) are Denard Span (.263), BJ Upton (.161), Chris Coghlan (.277) and Kirk Nieuwenhuis (.074 – took over for Valdespin who was hitting .219). Revere (.266) is not our biggest problem… in my opinion, it’s Hamels, Howard, Utley and Cholly. I’ve supported all of these guys but they all need to step it up big time. Hamels is the ace of our rotation… he needs to be an ace. Howard needs to drive the ball… end of story. I don’t care how much time it takes in the cage, he has to figure it out (and I do believe that his problems are due to a lack of preparation and focus… too many distractions heading into the season). Utley needs to get back on the field. And Cholly needs to figure out a consistent lineup and find a way to light a fire under this team… too many blown leads and it seems to me that he’s content playing the, “I don’t have enough” card. That’s BS… the players feed off of that stuff. If he doesn’t think that he has enough to win (evidenced by his, “all I can do is write the names on the lineup” comment), the players sure won’t feel too confident about the direction of the team. There’s enough talent there… he needs to figure out who to deploy and what needs to be said/done to get players playing up to their potential. That is the job of a coach/manager. He has not done a good job of managing and leading this team this season and I have always supported him as a leader (not so much as an in-game manager)… players have generally played well for him and they’ve won in spite of a lot of questionable gut calls. This season, they’re playing down because of him and those gut calls are just further emphasized with every blown lead or questionable roster decision.

1. He spent 6 years in the twins organization being told to hit the ball on the ground. Coming into the season, he had a career 67% GB rate. he never had a month in the majors where he had less than a 63% GB rate.

the Phillies have openly stated that henderson and Joyner were tasked with making him drive the ball more, and hit more line drives. His GB rate in April was 77%. since then its been about 56%. He’s never hit fewer GB’s in his career than he has since may 1st. the change is taking.

Everyone was ready to run Dom Brown out of here the last two years, and look what happened..just let the kid relax and play…his play will let us know if he belongs in a year or so..still need a RF, infield corners are not producing power and bullpen sucks except for an expensive closer..

Joe – No one is “insulting” Shane Victorino. All I said was that Vic took some bad routes to balls as well… The difference is that he had more experience playing than Revere does now. I think with more seasoning that Revere has the potential to be very good out there.

And I like Vic…I was even for them bringing him back on a modest 3-year deal. But they wanted to go in a different direction and I don’t fault them for that.

“Ben Revere is exactly who he is supposed to be. And he’s a pretty good ball player.”

That’s from the article, and I don’t agree. Pretty good is a general term, but I don’t see him as a forceful contributor to a contending championship level club. Take a while, some degree of authoritative hitting fo me to change the mindset significantly.

My inclination is to sum him up as okay at best. Truthfully, I don’t even know why I’m sitting here writing about him. He doesn’t move me much on the apathy scale.

“I don’t see him as a forceful contributor to a contending championship level club.”

I don’t either, because right now he’s not playing for a championship level club. Maybe when the Phils actually have some talent, this comment will mean something. But it also might mean that by then they’ll have enough power elsewhere to carry a “pretty good” ballplayer in center.

Given time and patience, and even more maturity – he should strongly resemble Juan Pierre with a slightly better glove but same arm. I would gladly take his fielding even now and a 265 ; 0 hr ; 50 stolen bases ; .320 OBP for his first year in the NL. He will steal enough runs like he did last night to win 3 to 4 more games even from this point in the year. Give the kid a chance….

Smitty..that would be awesome if he could turn in to a Pierre..he has never hit a homer, and shouldn’t be trying to.. His only focus should be trying to get on base any way he can. Get up on the plate, crouch..Take pitches…take some pitches off the shoulder..whatever it takes..

I’ve seen a number of comments about Revere’s base running, times, steal percentages, etc.

Just to clarify, when I said he wasn’t as fast on the bases as advertised, I was mostly talking about home to first. I don’t understand why he does not beat out more of those 80% ground balls he hits, and he almost never beats out a bunt.

Pete Rose was a thick barrel chested man 25 pounds heavier than Ben, and he beat out bunts more frequently than Revere. I think Juan Pierre at his age, is faster H to 1B. And don’t tell me they weren’t defending Rose to bunt as much, he did it so often, they knew the threat was always there.

We knew Revere was not going to be a power hitter, I expected better speed on the bases home to first, and first to third. Anyone can steal second if they read the pitcher right, heck, big old lumbering David Ortiz is 2 for 2 this year. It wouldn’t surprise me if JMJ and Dom could beat Ben’s time to first, I don’t know how to prove it, but it wouldn’t come as a shock to me.

Again I like Ben, and I root for him, but he needs to step it up like he did in Minnesota, with much more frequency.

Revere is finally starting to look like he has some talent. It’s a huge problem that he hasn’t been getting from 1st to 3rd very well and that he has hit into several double plays. If somebody hits the ball to right field, he has to get to 3rd base most of the time. But I have to admit he reminded me of Juan Pierre yesterday with his play. He still has to get better judging balls in the outfield.

Regarding his average, a player of his type has to have an on-base average around .340 to be an everyday player because he just doesn’t drive in runs. He has to be good at getting from 1st to 3rd. If you looked at a player like Richie Ashburn, his OBA was probably over .400 in several years.

Defensively, his arm is a major limitation. He has to get better at judging fly balls.

I suspect Revere’s poor April can be chalked up to two things. Revere was told to beat the ball into the ground to the point of absurdity. In April he hit almost six ball groundballs for every ball in the air. That’s not his normal way of hitting. Therefore, I suspect coaching by someone.

Second, Revere isn’t a leadoff hitter. He’s not as bad in the leadoff spot historically as he has been with the Phillies to date. However, until he learns to work the pitcher – and the umpires – for walks, he has to rely on hitting well and on rushed fielding to get on base. He’s hitting under .100 in the first at bat of the game. He’s hitting under .200 when he leads of an inning.

That’s not a good recipe for setting the table consistently. The kid has a good eye. He makes contact like a metronome. He hits much better with runners on and in the later innings. He seems to be willing to please. If he changes his hitting goals just a little and aims for a .400 OBP and to see at least 8 pitches in an at bat he would be a terror.

Revere has never taken more than 30 walks in an MLB season. If he even doubled that number, his OBP would greatly improve. He’s not alone in needing to learn that a walk is as good as a hit. It took Ashburn five big league seasons to learn that lesson. Revere also needs to learn to stop taking borderline pitches. He should learn to foul those pitches off, He would greatly increase his chances of getting a free ride to first or a fat pitch to hit. Fouling off a pitcher’s best pitches as well as borderline pitches seems to be something a hitting instructor should be able to teach. I wonder why the many Phillies hitting gurus are teaching this skill.

I like Revere a lot. I think the Phillies made an excellent deal to get him. He may end up being second best defensive center fielder the team has ever had. And, the club has had its share of very good ones: Ashburn, probably the best outfielder of all time, Maddox, Unser, Dykstra, Victorino. That’s just since WWII. The Phillies have always had excellent centerfielders. Revere, despite what the fans think, is already in that class. He will almost certainly manage 400 putouts this season, possibly 450. Garry Maddox led the league in OF Total Zone Runs twice in his career. Revere has already managed it once.

This will be Revere’s second season in the top 5 of the MLB OF Range Factor OF/9 Inn rankings. Maddox appeared there 5 times in 15 years, Dykstra and Unser each managed three appearances in the Top 5. Ashburn, of course, was in a class by himself. Even though his first two big league season occurred before the record keeping started, he appeared in the Top 5 seven times out of thirteen seasons, including an MLB record four times as number one.

This is only Revere’s third full season. He is an exciting player who delivers in one of the four key defensive positions. His offense can use some work. But, he is not that far from being a keystone on offense as people think. Stolen bases are undervalued in today’s statistics. The kind of pressure a player like Revere puts on pitchers and infielders is not reflected anywhere in the stat geeks’ models.

WTF is MLB OF Range Factor oF/9 Inn rankings and OF Total Zone Runs ??? And how is that determined? I’ve only been following the game since 1952 and playing (baseball & softball) until I was 57yrs old (2001) and have NEVER heard that one.

Bad luck with a 65% GB rate? How about this is his LOWEST rate of his career (check Fangraphs moron), as hard as this is to believe, he normally hits MORE GB’s than this. And you dismiss this as if its some sort of anomoly.

The average player hits into about 1.1 ground outs for every fly out, in Revere’s case, over his CAREER, that ratio has never been lower than 2:1, and that was only in 2010 when he only had 30 plate appearances.

He has already grounded into as many double plays this year as he had all of last year, simply because the Phillies HAD to move him down in the order, so he had more people on in front of him than he would have had batting leadoff.

His walk rate is consistently well below the league average, despite his packaging himself, and Amaro packaging him, as a leadoff hitter.

For a typical MLB hitter, 1/3 of his hits will be for extra bases, for Revere, that ratio is barely 1/10.

His next HR will be his first, let that sink in for a second.

I do not care who we traded for him, or what they are now doing. The fact that we gave up anything for a player like this just shows how clueless the man calling the shots truly is.

Wait a sec, your praising Revere for, I’m not mistaken, that game in ‘Sota where he had 4 hits? He actually helped lose them that game as much as he did win it. He’s a losing your player whose mistakes are greater than his positives to this point. All you have to do us go back to the end if that game on the ball Morneau hit and you’ll see why. 0-2 count to Morneau & with them pitching him away, Revere is playing him to pull and the ball is hit where he should have been & there’s your ball game. Sure he can improve, but praising him after that performance is laughable.