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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA
SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Crown Plaza Crown Plaza
Victoria Albert Room Salle Victoria Albert
350 St. Mary Avenue 350, avenue St. Mary
Winnipeg, Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba)
March 9, 1999 Le 9 mars 1999
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
StenoTran
Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE
CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA
SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Barbara Cram Chairperson / Présidente
Andrée Wylie Vice-Chairperson, Radio-
television / Vice-
présidente, Radiodiffusion
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Carolyn Pinsky Commission Counsel /
Avocat du Conseil
Rod Lahay Broadcasting Planning
Services / Service de la
planification de la
radiodiffusion
Gary Krushen Director, Winnipeg Regional
Office / Directeur
régional, Winnipeg
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Crown Plaza Crown Plaza
Victoria Albert Room Salle Victoria Albert
350 St. Mary Avenue 350, avenue St. Mary
Winnipeg, Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba)
March 9, 1999 Le 9 mars 1999
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ii
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Ms Olena Ziombra 5
Ms Valerie Wadepool 9
Ms Ann Pedersen 15
Mr. Roy Benson 21
Mr. Bill Harrison 33
Mr. Carl Ridd 36
Ms Trish Masniuk 55
Mr. Jesse Vorst 65
Mr. Gordon Toombs 73
Mr. Brian McLeod 81
Ms Jamie Davidson 87
Ms Mary Hewitt-Smith 93
Mr. David Northcott 99
Ms Cheryl Ashton 104
Ms Carol Vivier 108
Mr. Murray Smith 115
Mr. Herbert Schulz 122
Mr. Kenneth Emberley 132
Mr. Ed Bachewich 141
Mr. Garnet Angeconeb 155
Mr. Dave Walley 164
Ms Tirzah Sharpe 172
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TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Ms Rita Menzies 177
Mr. Edward Hiebert 181
Ms Delaney Earthdancer 187
Mr. Bill Toews 196
Ms Janis Kaminsky 203
Ms Maxine Hasselriis 209
Mr. Maurice Strasfeld 213
and Ms Celine Papillon
Ms Laurie Ankenman 219
Ms Phyllis Abbe 224
and Mr. Mel Christian
Mr. Harold Shuster 228
Mr. Al Mackling 233
and Mr. Dave Mackling
Ms Elizabeth Fleming 243
Ms Linda McMillan 246
Mr. Ian Ross 252
Mr. Don Laluk 258
Reply by / Réponse par:
Mr. John Bertrand 261
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1 Winnipeg, Manitoba / Winnipeg (Manitoba)
2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 9, 1999
3 at 1304 / L'audience commence le mardi
4 9 mars 1999 à 1304
5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, ladies
6 and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation
7 on the CBC.
8 2 My name is Barbara Cram and I am a
9 CRTC Commissioner.
10 3 We are here to gather your views and
11 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion,
12 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
13 its role in the coming years?
14 4 The CBC is a national public service,
15 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays
16 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system.
17 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
18 broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply,
19 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
20 new services. In this context, we want to know what
21 are your needs and expectations as viewers and
22 listeners of the CBC.
23 5 Given that, it is very important that
24 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not
25 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
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1 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this
2 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my
3 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
4 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
5 are holding this series of regional consultations, from
6 one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian
7 cities, from today until 18th.
8 6 These consultations are designed to
9 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
10 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
11 it offers and the direction it should take at the
12 national, regional and local levels.
13 7 Through these consultations we hope
14 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
15 your concerns. Your comments will from part of the
16 public record which will be added to the record of the
17 public hearing on the CBC beginning in Hull on May 25.
18 8 At this upcoming hearing, the
19 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
20 renewal of its licences, including radio, television
21 and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
22 l'information. You can also take part in that public
23 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.
24 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
25 specific licence renewals being examined when you file
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1 your comments.
2 9 Now, I would like to come back to
3 today.
4 10 Please allow me to introduce the CRTC
5 staff that is here. Carolyn Pinsky, our legal counsel.
6 This is Mr. Lahay. He has a new outfit today. I think
7 he is on an airplane coming here. Please feel free to
8 call upon either Carolyn or Mr. Lahay, when he does
9 arrive, with any questions you might have about the
10 process today, or any other matter.
11 11 So that you will all have an
12 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
13 presentations to ten minutes. As these consultations
14 are a forum primarily designed for you, we want to
15 listen to as many participants as possible and we will
16 not ask questions unless we require clarification.
17 12 At the end of the session,
18 representatives of the local CBC stations will have a
19 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
20 interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
21 13 Before we start, I would ask Carolyn
22 Pinsky, our legal counsel, to go over some of the
23 housekeeping matters regarding the conduct of this
24 hearing.
25 14 Thank you.
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1 15 MS PINSKY: Thank you,
2 Commissioner Cram.
3 16 Firstly, there are translation
4 services available in the other room if anybody
5 requires them.
6 17 In order to sort of set out the
7 process a bit, what I will be doing is calling up
8 10 presenters at a time and at that time if you will
9 all come up and take a place around the table. I will
10 then call each presenter individually in turn to make
11 their presentation and they will have approximately
12 10 minutes to do so.
13 18 When you begin your presentation, to
14 assist the court reporter, please ensure that your
15 microphone is on, you just press the button in the
16 front, and when you have completed that it is turned
17 off.
18 19 For those who are in the audience
19 today and who don't wish to make a presentation, we do
20 have comment forms available at the front table if you
21 wish to put some thoughts in writing and then those
22 will be placed on the public file as well.
23 20 So without further ado, I think I
24 will call the first 10 presenters: Olena Ziombra --
25 and you can just come up and take a place at the table,
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1 please -- Valerie Wadepool (ph); Ann Pedersen;
2 Roy Benson; Bill Harrison; Carl Ridd; Trish Masniuk;
3 Gordon Toombs; and Brian McLeod.
4 --- Short pause / Courte pause
5 21 MS PINSKY: We do seem to have room
6 around the table and time, so perhaps I will call
7 Jamie Davidson as well because he hadn't originally --
8 I'm sorry -- she hadn't been scheduled.
9 --- Short pause / Courte pause
10 22 MS PINSKY: We will now begin.
11 23 I would first ask Olena Ziombra to
12 make a presentation.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 24 MS ZIOMBRA: Thank you for the
15 invitation from the CRTC Commission.
16 25 The Canadian Broadcasting
17 Corporation, CBC, Radio-Canada sent me a letter because
18 I attended a CBC open house on October 1998 in
19 Winnipeg.
20 26 The Canadian Radio-television and
21 Telecommunications Commission, CRTC, wants to know what
22 Canadians think of CBC radio and television.
23 27 I think very highly of the English
24 radio network at the regional and national level.
25 Television I don't watch too often and I think it's
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1 satisfactory.
2 28 I am very proud of CBC broadcasters,
3 the Commission, and management because they are
4 representing Canada, Canadians from different
5 nationalities, ethnic groups and Canadian living for
6 the world.
7 29 CBC technicians and other employers
8 are on strike and they paralyse the CBC networks from
9 coast to coast. They should be revived morally and
10 financially and send them back to work or some could
11 get transferred close to their parents and work there
12 for CBC, the same work they perform in the old place if
13 they like it.
14 30 Questions, it says here, from CRTC:
15 "In your view, how well does the
16 CBC fulfil its role in national
17 public broadcasting? In the new
18 millennium, should the CBC serve
19 the public and fulfil its role
20 in a different manner than it
21 has in the past?" (As read)
22 31 The answer: Not really necessarily,
23 but if they have better ideas than the old ones, they
24 could try it.
25 32 Question:
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1 "How well does the CBC serve the
2 public on a regional as well as
3 national level?" (As read)
4 33 Radio programs at regional/national
5 levels are very good.
6 "Should the programming provided
7 by CBC radio and television be
8 different from that provided by
9 other broadcasters? If so, what
10 should these differences be?"
11 (As read)
12 34 Answer: Differences should be the
13 best programs available in moral, educational,
14 cultural, financial, religious, music, news, and
15 children's programs because they meet the standards and
16 they are representing Canada in a regional and national
17 field.
18 35 For example, Mr. Prime Minister often
19 is saying in his speech: Canada is the best country in
20 the world. Which is true. So the broadcasters and
21 technicians should be happy, too, with the CBC.
22 "Is there a special role that
23 the CBC should play in the
24 presentation of Canadian
25 programs? If so, what should
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1 this role be?" (As read)
2 36 Answer: Less sports programs on TV.
3 The Canadians are not interested in sports. Instead of
4 sports they should have more ethnic group programs on
5 the radio and also on TV, at least 10 to 12 hours per
6 week, like Ukrainian programs and other ethnic groups.
7 37 To the President of CBC,
8 Mr. Beattie (ph), radio and TV broadcasters, employees
9 across Canada and CRTC, Mr. Bertrand, all the best in
10 the future. No more strikes. The management of CBC
11 and the union should come to a fast agreement and
12 everybody who works for CBC radio should be satisfied,
13 healthy, wealthy and live a successful life.
14 38 Thank you all for your attention.
15 39 Also, thank you Judy Butler for her
16 service. It's a pleasure to be here.
17 40 Yacho Uzawara (ph) and my name is
18 Olena Ziombra.
19 41 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
20 42 Ms Ziombra, do you live in Winnipeg?
21 43 MS ZIOMBRA: Yes, I am.
22 44 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
23 45 Please sit down when you are giving
24 your presentations. We are trying to sort of create
25 a --
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1 46 MS ZIOMBRA: I'm very sorry.
2 47 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no, no.
3 I should have said it at the first. That was my fault.
4 48 MS PINSKY: The next presenter is
5 Valerie Wadepool.
6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
7 49 MS WADEPOOL: Yes. My name is
8 Valerie Wadepool and I am representing Neil Slykerman
9 who is the President of Campaign Life Coalition
10 Manitoba, a national organization which has as its aim
11 the promotion of the family as the basic building block
12 in society and the legal protection of all human life
13 from the moment of fertilization to natural death.
14 50 I welcome the opportunity to voice
15 the concerns of our organization with respect to CBC
16 reporting on some social issues covered by your mandate
17 as an organization.
18 51 It is our opinion that the CBC has
19 been less than fair on a number of occasions on these
20 issues in the past. However, we want to address
21 ourselves, in particular, to the element of bias in a
22 documentary aired on January 19th of this year in
23 connection with the shooting of abortionist Dr. Barnet
24 Slepian (ph) in New York last fall on CBC's News
25 Magazine.
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1 52 Television, to be sure, is a most
2 powerful educator, highly influential and shaping the
3 public's minds on all kinds of issues and concerns. It
4 is a powerful tool which reaches far and wide into the
5 hearts and minds of a multitude of Canadians.
6 53 At the heart of a democracy lies the
7 right to knowledge. This includes knowledge on
8 controversial social issues. Such issues especially
9 must be dealt with in a responsible, non-biased manner
10 and reflect core values which have long since become
11 engrained in society.
12 54 A balanced objective presentation of
13 such issues can go a long way toward a fair debate
14 among Canadians on these issues. It is not for the
15 media to control that debate, only to present the
16 facts. In presenting the facts, fairness and balance
17 must be a guiding force. In our opinion, the
18 aforementioned documentary, which was aired under the
19 title "Thou Shalt Not Kill", was a departure from this
20 principle. Allow me to explain.
21 55 The mainstream pro-life movement in
22 Canada does not agree and in fact strongly disagrees
23 with the statements made by U.S. pastors
24 Mat Truhela (ph) and Michael Grey (ph) to the effect
25 that shooting an abortionist is not murder. This has
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1 the immediate effect of implicating the Canadian
2 pro-life movement as a whole and putting it in a
3 negative light. These statements represent a radical
4 view by a small U.S. segment of the anti-abortion
5 movement, which is not supported by pro-lifers at all.
6 To pro-lifers, every human life is sacred and people
7 who support the killing of an abortionist are in fact
8 not pro-life.
9 56 Even though representatives of
10 Canadian pro-life groups strongly condemned the
11 shooting, a statement made again and again by these
12 representatives but largely ignored by the media, the
13 CBC had to rely on the help of this American group of
14 radicals to get its message across which covered the
15 bulk of the documentary.
16 57 If the CBC had any knowledge of the
17 pro-life movement in Canada, while still maintaining a
18 non-biased stance, it would not have dared to associate
19 it in any way with this radical group. Thus, the
20 pro-abortion mind set, which appears to run through all
21 our media, was well represented in this documentary.
22 58 Without linking these American
23 radicals to Canada's pro-life movement, the CBC would
24 have had no show at all. Even the only segment in the
25 documentary which was Canadian in content, the "Show
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1 the Truth" segment, was depicted to be a violent
2 demonstration which it definitely is not. "Show the
3 Truth" is a peaceful protest by concerned citizens
4 showing the reality of abortion to the public.
5 59 Campaign Life Coalition protests the
6 airing of this type of unfair reactionary coverage. It
7 appears that the only purpose of this documentary was
8 to discredit the mainstream Canadian pro-life movement.
9 By this presentation, the CBC was successful in
10 distorting the issue of abortion-related violence in
11 Canada in the minds of countless Canadians. A real
12 service would have been provided to the Canadian public
13 if the content of this program would have been more
14 balanced.
15 60 What's more, if the CBC were
16 interested in saving human lives, it would have paid
17 much more attention to what Canadian pro-lifers had to
18 say about the shooting of Dr. Barnet Slepian. Perhaps
19 this is too much to ask and we can only urge the CBC to
20 be more balanced in its coverage.
21 61 On another subject, the CBC is by
22 Canadians for Canadians, and we find it puzzling that
23 the House of Commons Debates on the Parliament Network
24 can only be viewed by cable or dish subscribers who
25 receive largely American content programming of
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1 American origin. Rural homes which have no cable
2 access are also deprived of this most Canadian
3 programming.
4 62 To provide the debates through CBC,
5 regularly scheduled programming may remain in place.
6 The CBC could use the off hours after the late night
7 programs and before the 6:30 a.m. news. You may be
8 surprised how many would watch or tape this
9 broadcasting to be viewed later. This is a service the
10 CBC should be providing.
11 63 On a personal level, though other
12 members of our group concur, the CBC often is an oasis
13 in a desert of mostly mindless noise with little
14 substance to choose from. Where Americans have
15 membership networks with more cultural informative
16 content than commercial networks, Canadians have the
17 CBC. Particularly, CBC radio is the station of choice
18 of our members. This topic came up as an aside at an
19 executive meeting, so I do not say this from guesswork.
20 The music, the classical and jazz is highly
21 appreciated, as are many of the documentaries. Some
22 documentaries of emerging countries are so interesting
23 and well done that the visuals are not even missed.
24 Congratulations.
25 64 In closing, I want to thank the CRTC
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1 for the opportunity to be heard. I hope these remarks
2 were within the parameters suggested for this
3 presentation and that they will be considered.
4 65 Thank you very much.
5 66 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Could you
6 please have her repeat her name and the name of her
7 organization, please?
8 67 MS WADEPOOL: Valerie Wadepool,
9 Campaign Life Coalition.
10 68 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you.
11 69 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Wadepool, are
12 you from Winnipeg also?
13 70 MS WADEPOOL: Yes, I am.
14 71 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any
15 other instances of what you would call unbalanced
16 programming that you have seen?
17 72 MS WADEPOOL: I don't have anything
18 written down in particular or anything that I can call
19 to mind right now because unfortunately, for some
20 reason -- I don't have cable because there is a lot of
21 programming on cable that I do not want to bring into
22 my home and I have to buy it as a package, so I just
23 have the antenna, and for some reason I have terrible
24 reception of CBC television personally. So I can't say
25 anything about that.
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1 73 But that's another thing I could go
2 off on a tangent about, these packages that I am forced
3 to buy channels which would never fly if they had to
4 depend on commercials and such. There are some
5 terrible -- and everybody agrees with me that I have
6 asked about those.
7 74 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
8 75 MS WADEPOOL: Thank you.
9 76 MS PINSKY: Thank you. I would ask
10 next Ann Pedersen.
11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
12 77 MS PEDERSEN: Hello. I'm
13 Ann Pedersen.
14 78 CBC radio and television have been
15 part of my life for as long as I can remember. I grew
16 up watching Disneyland, Don Messers Jubilee,
17 Tommy Hunter and Hockey Night in Canada. I cut my real
18 adult teeth listening to Peter Gzowski This Country in
19 the Morning during my post-secondary education years.
20 79 For a few years I tried out all of
21 the other stations on radio and TV, but soon found that
22 they did not have much to offer but the same 10 songs
23 or the same situations/role played out on every sitcom
24 imaginable. I came back to the CBC.
25 80 When my children were small I again
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1 enjoyed Peter Gzowski, this time on Morningside. Today
2 I have CBC Radio One on all day at home and in my
3 vehicle. I listen to Information Radio with
4 Terry MacLeod, This Morning with Avril Benoit and
5 Michael Enright; Radio Noon with Susan Magus (ph);
6 Questionnaire with Donald Benam (ph); The Roundup with
7 Bill Richardson, and The Afternoon Edition with Maureen
8 Pendergast (ph).
9 81 In the evening and on weekends, I
10 often tune into such programs as As It Happens with
11 Barbara Bud and Mary-Lou Finlay (ph); Ideas with Lister
12 Sinclair; DNTO or Definitely Not the Opera with Nora
13 Young; and Quirks & Quarks with Bob MacDonald (ph). No
14 other radio station can provide the kind of enjoyment
15 and information I get from CBC.
16 82 CBC television offers excellent
17 programming too. Comedy in the forms of Red Green,
18 This Hour Has 22 Minutes and Comics. Documentaries
19 like Witness and Life and Times; journalism programs
20 such as Fifth Estate, Market Place and Venture; and
21 science programs such as The Nature of Things. In most
22 cases, these are family shows that we can all enjoy and
23 learn from.
24 83 Lifelong learning is a term touted by
25 many organizations today. Learning comes from many
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1 different areas not just colleges and universities. I
2 am a firm believer in lifelong learning and the CBC,
3 both radio and television, continue to be part of my
4 university.
5 84 Thousands of other Canadians who are
6 at home by choice or who cannot get out also enjoy this
7 kind of learning opportunity. It is our lifeline.
8 Where else could we learn about the great citizens of
9 this country, some ordinary and some unique, all while
10 carrying out daily mundane but very necessary household
11 chores and the all important job of raising a healthy
12 family?
13 85 The CBC strives not only to inform
14 and enlighten, but also to show a remarkable talent in
15 promoting Canadians who make a difference. It is to the
16 CBC's credit that I have learned more about Nunavut and
17 what it will mean to its people than from any other
18 news source.
19 86 Issues affecting local farmers and
20 communities are presented in a fashion that is easily
21 understood by anyone.
22 87 Canadian superstars and local heroes
23 of many walks of life are all highlighted on CBC.
24 88 Political pundits and analysts,
25 newspaper editors, the many volunteers of this great
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1 country, musicians and artists ranging from those just
2 breaking onto their respective scenes to those who have
3 made it big, sports achievements and failures, and just
4 average Canadians are featured daily on CBC radio and
5 television. I can't get that anywhere else.
6 89 As a national public broadcaster, CBC
7 is able to inform me of the issues that affect each
8 area of the country and why they are important, both to
9 the local people and to me. They do this in a timely
10 manner.
11 90 Coverage of the ice storm in eastern
12 Canada and the flood of the century in Manitoba are two
13 excellent examples of how CBC fulfils its role as a
14 national public broadcaster. Many people who never
15 tuned to CBC before were getting essential information
16 from the CBC during the flood.
17 91 Too much emphasis is being placed on
18 the new millennium. The Year 2000, or Y2K as computer
19 buffs like to call it, is just a number like all other
20 years, the only difference there will be could be due
21 to computers. It will arrive much like others and end
22 similarly. It's only fanfare will be human made.
23 92 Should the CBC fulfil its role in a
24 different manner than it has in the past? The answer
25 is an unequivocal no.
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1 93 The CBC is a continually evolving
2 institution that fulfils its role as a national public
3 broadcaster by dropping that which doesn't work and
4 innovating ways to present new items often into
5 existing programming. The one thing that has held them
6 back is continual cuts in funding. This funding must
7 be restored.
8 94 The CBC serves the public regionally
9 here very well. Information Radio, Radio Noon and The
10 Afternoon Edition, all on the radio, provide
11 programming and information that keep me up to date on
12 regional events and issues as well as items of national
13 interest. The 24 Hours news program on CBC television
14 also provides excellent local, regional and national
15 coverage.
16 95 The CBC has always been different in
17 what it provides to its audience. Its programming can
18 generally be watched by or listened to by people of all
19 ages. It has a tendency toward family-oriented viewing
20 and listening, a trend on which I expect to continue to
21 rely. Other Canadian television stations seem to
22 believe that sex and/or violence needs to pervade every
23 aspect of viewing regardless of the time of day or
24 evening. Thankfully, the CBC does not share that
25 belief.
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1 96 Please allow the CBC to continue
2 their high quality broadcasting.
3 97 I believe that presentation of
4 Canadian programming should be done not just because
5 its Canadian but because it is good quality
6 programming. We as Canadians have proven to the world
7 that we are capable of producing news, entertainment,
8 documentaries, series, sports, comedy and journalism
9 that can not only compete, but is actually in demand in
10 other countries.
11 98 CBC radio and television present
12 programming that is not only entertaining, it is often
13 thought provoking and easily becomes the basis for
14 future discussion on a wide variety of topics that no
15 other broadcaster can boast. It is this discussion
16 that can keep us together as a people and a country for
17 without discussion there is no understanding. Where
18 there is no understanding there is no tolerance.
19 Without tolerance we grow apart and learn hatred.
20 99 Canadians are a diverse people,
21 originating from points all over the globe. This
22 diversity in origins and culture has caused us to be
23 the most inventive nation in the world. We are able to
24 learn and cull from the best of all cultures and thus
25 become the United Nations number one place to live.
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1 100 The CBC has been the very fabric that
2 brings Canadians of all cultures and origins together
3 in one facet or another. I urge the CRTC to restore
4 funding to previous levels and to allow the CBC to
5 continue to fulfil its natural role in Canada, that of
6 public educator.
7 101 Thank you.
8 --- Applause / Applaudissement
9 102 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
10 Ms Pedersen.
11 103 My notes here say you come from
12 Springstein (ph).
13 104 MS PEDERSEN: That's correct.
14 105 THE CHAIRPERSON: And where is that?
15 106 MS PEDERSEN: Springstein is just
16 outside the city, about a 15-20 minute drive.
17 107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
18 108 MS PINSKY: I will ask Roy Benson to
19 be the next presenter, please.
20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
21 109 MR. BENSON: Thank you very much.
22 110 I don't think that I will probably
23 use up my full 10 minutes, but one never knows.
24 111 I do have a few things that I'm glad
25 to have the opportunity to say. One of them is that
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1 man and boy for awhile -- I'll tell you, over 50
2 years -- I have listened to and enjoyed the CBC. I
3 find nothing wrong with it that I can be critical of.
4 From time to time it produces a program that doesn't
5 particularly interest me. But that's all right, it
6 interests someone else and that's fine. We all have
7 something for all of us on the CBC.
8 112 I have been very distressed over the
9 last decade or so at the incessant cuts in funding that
10 the CBC has received from Ottawa and I would request
11 that the CRTC do all of the lobbying that they are able
12 to encourage the federal government to restore the CBC
13 enough money so they can do the job that they did
14 before and indeed restore all of that funding and more.
15 113 We cannot get too much of the
16 excellent service the CBC has always provided us.
17 114 One of the ladies speaking earlier
18 referred to the cacophony of sound that we get out of
19 the other stations and I must admit that 25 years ago I
20 would sometimes listen to another station for its news
21 or something on my way to work, and I stopped that
22 because I realized the others had nothing on them
23 whatsoever except noise and news and they simply
24 weren't worth wasting my time on.
25 115 I would make another suggestion
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1 vis-à-vis CBC television. To that I would draw your
2 attention that CBC radio enjoys the opportunity to
3 operate without those stupid, stupid commercials. You
4 know, you have to have a brain that's not more than
5 three years' old for some of them, and even then I
6 think they are insulting.
7 116 Is it possible that the CRTC could
8 enact some sort of limitation on the private
9 broadcasting networks that they do not repeatedly
10 insult our intelligence with commercials that are
11 intensely offensive?
12 117 At times at home my wife reproves me
13 because I have developed a habit of answering back to
14 them. She threatens to record it, but I don't think
15 she will ever play what I say publicly. I would just
16 as soon she didn't.
17 118 But to your first question -- oh, one
18 more comment. I would like to say that, as far as I
19 can recall, I fully endorse and agree with absolutely
20 everything the lady preceding me had to say. I think
21 it was very, very to the point, very well thought
22 through and very eloquently presented.
23 119 I'm retired so I feel no particular
24 onus on me to think things through very carefully or
25 arrange them or present them particularly well. I have
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1 a tendency to let them just sort of roll out as they
2 come. I don't ever want to hurt anyone's feelings, but
3 I don't care if you like it or not. I no longer am
4 being paid, so therefore I will do it as I see fit.
5 Well, I get a pension, but they can't do anything with
6 it.
7 120 On your first question about how well
8 the CBC fulfils its role as a national public
9 broadcaster, I think it does that excellently, as some
10 of you may have inferred by my comments.
11 121 I feel that in the new millennium the
12 CBC -- actually, the new millennium, you know, doesn't
13 make any difference. What we are really talking about
14 there, if you use those words correctly, is the next
15 thousand years, and I for one am not prepared to make
16 solid recommendations as to what the CBC should do over
17 the next thousand years. The next four or five
18 perhaps, the next 10, but even I have a limited life
19 expectancy.
20 122 At any rate, I feel that in the
21 immediate future, as long as I'm alive, the CBC should
22 continue to improve its services as it has improved
23 them over the many years in the past. I think they are
24 superb. There is no private sector broadcasting
25 station, either radio or television, that is fit to be
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1 in the same room with the CBC. They are just a blight
2 on the face of the airwaves. I worry for the radios
3 and TV sets that have to receive them.
4 123 Indeed, one of Winnipeg's most
5 popular talkers is a good acquaintance of mine. I
6 commented to him once that when his program was on in
7 our house -- and I never leave a radio running unless I
8 listen to it, I turn them off if I'm not. I like to
9 think. I said "When your program is on I'm not able to
10 think. I can't marshal any thoughts. It's like a
11 mental anaesthetic." His reply was interesting. I had
12 suspected it, but he confirmed it. He looked very
13 pleased and said "That's just what it is supposed to
14 be." I was surprised that he was dumb enough to tell
15 me, but he was.
16 124 I will go on now. I musn't wobble
17 too far.
18 125 How well does the CBC serve the
19 public on a regional as well as a national level? I
20 would say extremely well. But to try to answer that
21 question I have got to have something with which to
22 compare it, and I have never encountered anything to
23 which the CBC is comparable. As far as I'm concerned,
24 it provides the best possible regional and national
25 coverage.
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1 126 I do wish that there was a bit more
2 funding. I wish we hadn't closed those three network
3 outposts, the one in South Africa, because I find it
4 rather pleasant and very interesting to get my news by
5 satellite direct from a Canadian. We don't have to
6 hire Americans to do everything, you know.
7 127 I think that regionally, well, I
8 don't know how they could do it much better without
9 spending a lot more money. On that note, I would
10 suggest, come back to the suggestion, let us please
11 restore the CBC funding. Let us please increase the
12 CBC funding. And if you want more taxes from me, we
13 are not wealthy, but I am perfectly willing to kick in
14 extra money in my taxes to support an enriched, more
15 vibrant CBC. The CBC adds considerably to our quality
16 of life and I am perfectly willing to pay for it, not
17 just willing but anxious.
18 128 Your next question is:
19 "Should the programming provided
20 by the CBC be different from
21 other broadcasters?" (As read)
22 129 Well, it certainly is. It is that
23 way already, so it isn't a question of whether it ought
24 to be. It is. It has some coherent intelligence in
25 it.
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1 130 Think about some of the CBC programs
2 that are presented. Where are you going to find
3 Wayne Ronstad on any other national or private station?
4 I thought so. Nowhere. Nobody is going to do that,
5 yet that's an important thing. I think that we tend to
6 forget that programs like Ronstad's, programs like
7 Hockey Night in Canada, programs of infinite number are
8 an integral part of the glue that holds Canada
9 together.
10 131 We learn about each other. We learn
11 about our ethnicity and we find out that whether you
12 are a united empire loyalist descendant as I am, or
13 whether you have emigrated to this country in the last
14 five or ten years, you are not very different. There
15 are far, far more commonalities than there are
16 differences, and we learn that through the CBC.
17 132 But there is no one else that
18 presumes to even try to do such a thing, and we need
19 this cohesion. We need it. If we don't do something
20 to enhance it, we are going to lose the country because
21 when we lose an awareness, an understanding of each
22 other, and a tolerance and a respect for each other's
23 customs and ways, when we lose that, what will Canada
24 be then? We will be nothing.
25 133 We are heading that way quickly. We
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1 have already turned over most of our economy to the
2 Americans. One would wonder where our legislators get
3 their plans. There are some parties in the House of
4 Commons who sound as if they have been speaking to
5 Gerry Fulwell (ph) in the United States or alternately
6 you did go down to have conferences with
7 Newt Gingrintch (ph).
8 134 We have to do better than that,
9 because such policies will leave us without any
10 country. We will be some sort of satellite
11 second-class citizens attached loosely to the United
12 States.
13 135 We find now in our dispute with
14 magazines that the Americans are prepared to attack us
15 over steel, softwood lumber, cattle, all sorts of
16 things. When are we going to ever stand up to the
17 Americans again and tell them "No. Do what you like
18 and we will too."
19 136 I like Americans fine individually,
20 but their government exasperates me. Our government's
21 unwillingness to demonstrate Canadian sovereignty and
22 Canadian control of Canada is intolerable. One of the
23 vehicles with which we learn of these nefarious goings
24 on is, without doubt, the superlatively good CBC news
25 reporting. Now, I didn't say perfect. It's not, but
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1 it's damn close.
2 137 I would also like to comment on a
3 different topic, package programming. That's a very
4 secondary concern to my wife and I. Our children are
5 grown and gone and we sold our house and moved into the
6 country. We didn't find it necessary for four or five
7 months, until our son came home, to have a television
8 set at all. We found we were getting perfectly good
9 service from CBC radio, but he did want to watch hockey
10 games. He seems to be unable to live without them.
11 138 Also, why is it that of the channels
12 we are able to get, and I live a mile north of the town
13 of Selkirk, the CBC is the poorest reception of all? I
14 can get three other channels perfectly, but the CBC
15 channel is the one that is poor. Why is that?
16 139 And as CRTC people, could I also draw
17 to your attention what I believe has been the law for,
18 oh, I should think 40 or 50 years, and that is that it
19 has been illegal I believe to increase the transmission
20 power of the transmitters during commercials. Well,
21 why don't you enforce that law? You have the rules, I
22 believe. Why is it that when I'm watching radio or
23 television, I can be watching a program perfectly
24 pleasant, perfectly agreeable, and boy suddenly there
25 is a commercial break and it comes booming out and
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1 knocks my head off? I have to look around for the
2 remote control as my wife sometimes swipes it, and turn
3 it down, and then I have to turn it up. Worst yet,
4 ours is an old television and I often have to bang it
5 hard on the arm of the chair to make it work, and I
6 shouldn't have to do this.
7 140 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Benson, could
8 you sort of --
9 141 MR. BENSON: I will draw to an end,
10 then, difficult as it may be.
11 142 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand your
12 concerns.
13 143 MR. BENSON: You see, I'm a retired
14 teacher, and once I have begun, it's difficult to stop.
15 144 THE CHAIRPERSON: We need to bring in
16 a school bell. Is that what --
17 145 MR. BENSON: Well, that would
18 probably work, but I'm afraid you will have to have an
19 electric buzzer. We have conditioned the children
20 differently.
21 146 I just made a few notes. I would
22 also like to point out the uniqueness of the programs
23 and the people that we find and that we have found on
24 radio and TV for all these years. Last night I though
25 I made a bit of a note of them and somewhere it will
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1 be. I will find it here.
2 147 But I would like to ask you a
3 question. What plans have you got to regulate computer
4 animation that allows technicians to make dead human
5 beings or live ones walk, talk and move as if they are
6 perfectly normally alive? And if this is not a
7 problem, you tell me how we can ever believe anything
8 we see or hear over TV?
9 148 I would comment again, all of us saw
10 the American moon landing, and we saw the man climb out
11 of the spaceship and onto the moon, didn't we? We
12 heard him speak, didn't we? Are you sure?
13 149 I have seen a damn sight more skilful
14 and complex special effects in movies than that. Now,
15 I'm not throwing doubt on that. I believe it happened.
16 But if we are going to have manipulation of that sort,
17 well, what are we going to do to control it? We can
18 have Mr. Chrétien say anything that anybody wants him
19 to say, and there are a miscellany of people who would
20 like him to say numerous things.
21 150 Well, I'll stop with that. But I
22 would like to say just the names of a few programs, and
23 I seem to be losing them. No, no, I have them. Here
24 they are.
25 151 Where else but on the CBC are you
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1 going to find individualists, colourful, articulate,
2 intelligent individuals like Rex Murphy? Where do you
3 find anyone like the deceased J. Frank Willis (ph),
4 there may be some of you old enough to remember him, I
5 certainly do; and our own Bill Guest (ph) here in
6 Winnipeg, a fine man at the mike; Stanley Burke (ph);
7 Earl Cameron; Max Ferguson; Alan McFee (ph)? Where are
8 you going to get people like that if you don't get them
9 on the CBC? Do we want to do without them? I sure
10 don't. I want them. I want them on my radio. I want
11 them on my television because they are the spice that
12 makes us live and living worthwhile.
13 152 In conclusion, and honestly I will
14 stop this time, remember that the CBC is an integral
15 part of our culture. We have so much difficulty in
16 defining ourselves as Canadians. But, you know, a
17 definition of a Canadian isn't always the same in all
18 parts of Canada. The people in Newfoundland seem to
19 have very colourful and entertainingly different
20 cultural edges than we do and we find them delightful
21 to listen to. Where do you find politics like you find
22 them in British Columbia, where they have a premier
23 that they want to resign even though he has done
24 nothing wrong, et cetera, et cetera, no charges, no
25 fault or anything?
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1 153 Now, we have to rely on honest,
2 national networking to tell us about each other so we
3 can learn what we are like and learn to accept and be
4 glad of each other. The most potent force for that is
5 what Peter Gzowski used to refer to as the ministry of
6 truth.
7 154 With that I will stop. Thank you
8 very much.
9 155 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
10 Mr. Benson.
11 156 MS PINSKY: Bill Harrison is the next
12 presenter.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 157 MR. HARRISON: I'm happy to be here
15 because this seems to be Canada at work. I want to
16 thank the CRTC for giving us this opportunity. This is
17 our free country and let's just keep it that way, and I
18 think the CBC has a role in doing it.
19 158 Anyway, good day. My name is
20 Bill Harrison. I live in rural Manitoba, about
21 80 miles southwest of Winnipeg.
22 159 I and many of my neighbours and
23 friends listen to CBC Radio One and Two around the
24 clock. We view the CBC as Canada's community network,
25 our national neighbourhood connector. We depend on the
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1 CBC for news, information, entertainment, cultural
2 reporting and participatory talk shows, a Canadian
3 dialogue. It is reassuring to hear from fellow
4 citizens across the country and even American
5 neighbours calling in to voice their opinions on topics
6 we are concerned about collectively.
7 160 So already we have a local, national
8 and even an international sharing just from CBC radio.
9 161 My television experience, however, is
10 quite limited, but I do feel it is very important to
11 maintain a national public TV broadcaster as well.
12 162 CBC media must be given a stronger
13 and a broader mandate to serve our national public
14 interest. We must stop a commercial media monopoly
15 from moulding us into simple-minded consumers. We need
16 the CBC to be Canada's watchdog, providing a public
17 forum for us to constantly re-examine ourselves and the
18 world around us.
19 163 Knowledge is power, it was said
20 before, and the power must belong to the people. In
21 order to ensure this is done creatively, effectively
22 and responsibly, it must be given more funding. The
23 crippling cuts done by the last two federal governments
24 must be stopped now. The CRTC must remember the
25 airways are as free as the air we breathe.
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1 164 Foreign bureaus, such as the one in
2 Mexico City, should be re-established and in fact more
3 bureaus opened worldwide. If we want to prevent a
4 Kosovo-type situation in Canada or elsewhere, we need a
5 strong public broadcaster at arm's length from the
6 government. A healthy CBC can help foster our sense of
7 Canadian identity and unity, a securely funded CBC can
8 inform, educate and even entertain its listeners and
9 viewers.
10 165 The wishes of self-serving right-wing
11 politicians in this country who want the CBC abolished
12 must be resisted. The freedom we have and cherish to
13 speak freely in this country is the freedom we take,
14 the freedom we must guarantee ourselves to a strong
15 public national voice, a strong public media, a strong
16 CBC.
17 166 That's as much as I have to say.
18 167 Thanks very much.
19 --- Applause / Applaudissement
20 168 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
21 Mr. Harrison.
22 169 MS PINSKY: Carl Ridd is the next
23 presenter.
24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
25 170 MR. RIDD: My name is Carl Ridd. I
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1 am a retired professor of religious studies from the
2 University of Winnipeg. My favourite self-description
3 for myself and all of us is "citizen".
4 171 Before I say my own remarks, I would
5 like to say how much I concur with most of what I have
6 heard before, beginning with Ann Pedersen particularly
7 and following on through. I'm very relieved that so
8 much ground has been covered by them so that I don't
9 have to say any of that, and can instead go on to the
10 things I particularly want to say and that I maybe
11 haven't heard from them or others yet.
12 172 First, I would like to answer your
13 questions very swiftly.
14 173 In my view, how well does the CBC
15 fulfil its role as the national public broadcaster?
16 Increasingly poorly. I will come back to that.
17 174 In the new millennium -- and I, too,
18 noted what Roy Benson had, the new millennium, the
19 thousand years idea. It seemed to me that that phrase
20 therefore was a glib and catchy phrase and typical of
21 the sort of thing I don't want to get from any of my
22 broadcasters. We are all into this "in the new
23 millennium", this sort of vague, catchy phrase that
24 prevents thought.
25 175 Should it fulfil its role in a
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1 different manner than it has in the past? No, though
2 it will evolve I hope over time, as one of the earlier
3 speakers said.
4 176 How well does the CBC serve the
5 public on a regional as well as a national level?
6 Well, reasonably well. Better than practically anyone
7 else, obviously. But it does so by cutting services
8 rather than regions.
9 177 Yes, you have kept your regions
10 because politically that would be very unpopular
11 with -- I shouldn't speak to you people as though you
12 had done this. The CBC, though, had made the decision
13 to cut services, and I will come back to that, rather
14 than regions because it would be perceived as being not
15 in the best preference of the government, its funder.
16 178 I think that's why the strikes are on
17 right now. I mean, I'm not close to anyone in these
18 strikes, but I take it that one of the things that is
19 happening is that services are being cut and therefore
20 the quality of the CBC -- which is exceptional, I want
21 to say again and again, in the beginning, but is less
22 and less so -- that's where we citizens are paying the
23 price of keeping the regions, as I see it, from my
24 distance.
25 179 Should the programming provided by
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1 CBC radio and television be different from that
2 provided by other broadcasters? Yes, emphatically. If
3 so, what should these differences be? Well, very
4 briefly, I want Canadian content and above all a
5 Canadian view of reality. I want to see the world from
6 what I hope to be, wish to be, the Canadian
7 perspective. I think many of us could define that and
8 probably in different ways, but I don't want some
9 homogenized view. I want that which is Canada at its
10 best. That the CBC has, for me, in all the years of my
11 attention to it and listening to it, done better than
12 anything else.
13 180 I want secondly what I will call
14 investigative journalism and critical journalism. I
15 don't mean critical in the sense of carping and
16 complaining. I mean critical in the sense of asking
17 the sorts of questions that the purveyors of
18 information or facts or deeds don't necessarily want to
19 have asked. How often have we in this room sat there
20 hearing somebody put out a viewpoint and wishing that
21 the interviewer would ask them whatever it is. You get
22 that from the CBC a way more than you get it from
23 anyone else, and I want that. I have to have that.
24 Our country has to have it.
25 181 And I want it relatively free of
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1 advertising. I'm not one of these purists who has to
2 have it completely so, but I don't want the government
3 to get away with its funding cuts because all of a
4 sudden the CBC is turning into that which is beholden
5 to those who advertise in it.
6 182 I think I have, in those remarks,
7 answered the final question you specifically asked:
8 "Is there a special role the CBC
9 should play in the presentation
10 of Canadian programming? If so,
11 what is this role?" (As read)
12 183 Those are my quick answers to your
13 questions.
14 184 I would like to spend the rest of my
15 time, which will be pretty brief I think, five minutes
16 or so, if you will give me that, to make my own
17 comments from my own point of view as a Canadian
18 citizen and comment, I intend to, on the process I
19 believe to be happening. It may not be, but this is
20 what I perceive.
21 185 I perceive, then, first off the
22 serious dilution and weakening of the CBC, both radio
23 and television since about 1985.
24 186 There is more popular features, for
25 example, in the news programs, the sort of thing I say
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1 disgustedly to my dear partner in life as we sit
2 listening or watching "Another one of these
3 man-bites-dog stories." Features that can be prepared
4 in advance.
5 187 Now, look there is nothing wrong with
6 that under some conditions. But in the news programs I
7 look for news, not the kinds of features that could
8 come up any time but are a nice filler and sort of
9 serve a pop or entertainment function in that newscast.
10 And I hate the glib and cheery little supposedly funny
11 anecdote that some of the newscasts end with.
12 188 Now, look, the CBC is not the only
13 one guilty of that sort of thing either. But the
14 transition or partial transition into entertainment
15 rather than news in what ought to be the news part of
16 the CBC I deplore.
17 189 I see also a very serious diminution
18 in the research capacity of the CBC. Whenever it
19 touches something that I know something about, for
20 example, nuclear issues or ecological issues or
21 economic issues or APEC, I often find that the
22 interviewer on the CBC doesn't know very much about
23 this and therefore can't ask the questions that I'm
24 wanting to hear asked, because we have this person
25 right here and a chance to ask them, and they don't
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1 know enough to ask the right questions.
2 190 Yes, I phone in and say, you know,
3 "Why didn't this or that get asked?" Well, you know,
4 "Make your point further up", and I do. But the chance
5 has been missed for all those other listeners who
6 didn't know what questions to ask. I'm sure there are
7 many people sitting out there wanting to ask questions
8 that I don't know how to ask and never even thought of.
9 But the research -- the background stuff that the
10 interviewer has got seems to me significantly and
11 visibly weaker than it once was. There aren't as many
12 people employed to do that kind of rich preparation to
13 help the interview be that which educates us.
14 191 The second point I would like to
15 make, I take it that there has been a -- I have come
16 here to use plain words and I come here with great
17 respect and hope in the CRTC. I will come back to
18 that, too, as I end -- but I take there to have been
19 and to be right now an attack on the CBC by
20 governments.
21 192 There has been I believe an attempt
22 to tame the CBC. It began with the Mulroney
23 government. I can't go back into that, but I think we
24 all remember how much the Mulroney people hated the
25 CBC. I think the Chrétien government hates them
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1 equally. Maybe all governments would hate any critical
2 and investigative kind of journalism. I think if I
3 were in government I wouldn't much like them in many
4 respects and I would be anxious to have them tamed,
5 maybe not absolutely if I retained any of my citizen
6 faculties. I say this with some respect for our
7 governors, some respect, but pleading with you people
8 that that not become that which limits and governs this
9 precious medium.
10 193 So there have been these funding
11 cuts. It's an excellent way of taming, because you
12 don't have the research capacity and blah, blah, blah,
13 blah. Therefore, you function more by press releases
14 and handouts by the opinions of the opinion moulders of
15 society, and so on and so forth, and everything goes
16 along more smoothly. The boat is not as much rocked.
17 I take it that CBC, among others, and the Prime
18 Minister's office as well, is busy persecuting
19 Terry Milewski as a way of showing that it's really not
20 that bad and that it's sort of with the government in
21 this.
22 194 Now, look, I don't think there has
23 been any collusion between the government and the CBC
24 brass over this but, you know, I can't go into the
25 detail of that whole story, which I know pretty well,
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1 not from within the CBC but from a number of other
2 sources, and that's what I take to illustrate. The
3 government wants, then, mainstream and what government
4 wouldn't.
5 195 I think we are in huge danger in this
6 world and in Canada increasingly, and rapidly
7 increasingly, of what John Ralston Saul called
8 corporatism. The kind of monolithic control of the
9 mind. Some of the people don't know how to think
10 otherwise.
11 196 If I was a controller, I would want
12 control. But I'm not, and I think democracy is that
13 which is willing -- that the public, that the citizens,
14 that the whole of the community should have its strong
15 role and voice and reality. I am afraid that Canada is
16 becoming a corporation less than a country, and the CBC
17 is one huge, has been, one huge roadblock to that. It
18 still is. I want again and again to say how grateful I
19 am for what is left.
20 197 Whenever I do phone the CBC about
21 something or other to inquire of or often to complain
22 "Why wasn't this angle brought out", in those
23 relatively few areas where I know something, I always
24 hit, I always hit infallibly intelligent and helpful
25 and co-operative people. I am just amazed at the
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1 talent that's still there. Why haven't they bled off
2 to higher salaries somewhere else? So it is great
3 stuff, but it's definitely getting weaker, in my view.
4 198 Third point, I think we see here a
5 method. Again, I'm not sure how explicit this method
6 has been made to the controllers, but the method is you
7 cut and then the quality of that which is cut has less
8 value so there is going to be less energy to try and
9 defend it because it is diminishing in value anyway.
10 199 When I first heard you people were
11 coming I thought "I'm not going to be bothered." I
12 couldn't live with that. Finally, that's why I'm here,
13 because the thing had sunk down so much it was hard --
14 I used to belong -- I belonged in the beginning to the
15 friends of CBC, the Ian Morrison thing. I haven't sent
16 them any money or done a darn thing in that for, I
17 don't know, three or four or five years, anywhere from
18 the first year on, because it didn't seem worth it.
19 The thing was going to get ripped up anyway and I had
20 other battles to fight and I was fighting them and I
21 wasn't going to fight this one, but here I am saying a
22 small word.
23 200 I think therefore that there is less
24 energy to defend it out there and this is exactly what
25 is wanted. Since it's not serving very well and people
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1 don't care as much about it, well, you can cut it some
2 more. You see the process. It's a brilliant method.
3 It's a brilliant method, and I think it is pretty
4 deliberate.
5 201 The final thing I have to say is
6 really a question -- and I don't know whether you are
7 wanting to answer this, you Commissioners. I, again,
8 respect your presence. I'm grateful you exist. I
9 won't go on about it. I mean, you and the CBC are
10 defending the things that are of value in life as I
11 experience it. But I wonder whether you are able to
12 tell me and this room what role you have.
13 202 I mean, you will go back and I
14 presume report the sorts of things you hear including
15 these pleas that funding cuts be restored, which is my
16 plea as well, but do you have the right to -- the
17 government is not exactly your master. You are an
18 arm's-length body, I realize, but do you have the right
19 to take on the role of advocate?
20 203 Are you able to answer that question
21 or is that something about which you should be
22 discretely silent?
23 204 THE CHAIRPERSON: I prefer
24 discretion.
25 205 MR. RIDD: Okay. Thank you. I
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1 thought probably you would, so I will leave it as a
2 rhetorical question, you know, and end therewith.
3 206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I will ask
4 Ms Pinsky, the lawyer, to sort of define our role a
5 little for you.
6 207 Thank you, though, Mr. Ridd.
7 208 I will ask Carolyn.
8 209 MS PINSKY: I think as
9 Commissioner Cram mentioned in her opening remarks, we
10 will be conducting proceedings into the licence
11 renewals of the CBC. In that capacity, the Commission
12 is not an advocate. The Commission sits as a
13 regulatory body to determine the conditions that should
14 be imposed on the licence of the CBC. The licences
15 that we are looking at are the TV networks, the radio
16 networks and Newsworld and RDI, and maybe some of the
17 regional television stations as well. So it is more of
18 a regulatory body capacity.
19 210 MR. RIDD: Just a follow-up question,
20 then. What about all the stuff you have heard for the
21 last 40 minutes or so? I mean, how will that get
22 reported to -- well, to whom will it get reported?
23 Does it get reported to the CBC? Does it get reported
24 to the government; and, if so, how?
25 211 MS PINSKY: The purpose of these
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1 microphones are to transcribe the proceedings. The
2 transcriptions of the proceedings will form part of the
3 record of the hearing where we will be looking at the
4 renewal of the licence terms. So the input from the
5 public will inform the private Crown as a Commission,
6 one of the decision makers, in terms of the terms and
7 conditions and the scope of the licence that should be
8 accorded for the renewal term.
9 212 So in terms of -- this doesn't go to
10 the government because it is the CRTC, as you noted, as
11 an independent body and it will make its own decisions,
12 so it forms part of a public record upon which the
13 Commission then makes decisions.
14 213 MR. RIDD: Does the government have
15 access to this if they should seek it?
16 214 MS PINSKY: It's a public record,
17 yes. As well, of course, the CBC is here represented
18 and they will have an opportunity to reply at the end
19 of the session if they wish, so of course they as well
20 have a full opportunity to review the record as well.
21 215 MR. RIDD: A final question. Will
22 some official person or persons -- not person so much
23 as institutional representative be telling members of
24 the government -- I forget who the minister is
25 responsible for the CBC, but --
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1 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
2 216 MR. RIDD: It may be. But anyway,
3 will some officer be telling the requisite minister,
4 the relevant minister, that this material which you are
5 gathering from Canadians all across the country is
6 something that she or he ought to hear?
7 217 I mean, we can write and say that,
8 but it would have less authority I think than if you
9 Commissioners or someone could make that point.
10 218 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ridd, this is a
11 public forum and that's -- I mean, the whole idea is
12 that not only you tell us, but that your views are
13 publicly known, that we have the transcript, because
14 that forms part of the record of what we have heard and
15 what we consider in our decision. But it's also public
16 for the reason that we at least have the greatest
17 exchange of ideas that are possible.
18 219 I would be very surprised if the
19 public record were not at least referred to in any
20 final decision, and were not referred to or seen by,
21 say, the media and inevitably the government of the
22 day.
23 220 MR. HARRISON: Excuse me. If we are
24 asking you or presenting here that many of us seem to
25 be suggesting that the CBC needs to have their funding
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1 increased, if we are presenting that to you, is that
2 something that you will be involved in? Do you have
3 any say in that or do you have any way of presenting
4 that to the government or to the people who do decide?
5 221 I mean, are we just blowing air here
6 or what? I mean, maybe we shouldn't be here if we are
7 asking for the CBC to be given more stable funding, you
8 know. Money is essential to keep the thing afloat. I
9 mean, it's a public broadcaster. It doesn't get its
10 funding from commercial enterprises, at least the radio
11 doesn't.
12 222 So I'm just wondering, are you the
13 people we should be talking to?
14 223 THE CHAIRPERSON: We cannot tell
15 government and would not even purport to tell
16 government anything. Our purpose is to find out if CBC
17 is following its mandate, if its fulfilling its
18 statutory mandate. If it is not we will say that, or
19 if it is we will say it is. That is the issue.
20 224 But I would expect that in any
21 long-term decision by anybody the issue of funding
22 would be raised in these proceedings all along, because
23 that is what we have been hearing and I expect will be
24 hearing. I don't think there is anything we can do to
25 ensure an increase in funding.
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1 225 MR. HARRISON: Yes. But you, as the
2 CRTC, you recommend or you dictate to the media on what
3 they can do on air, correct? I mean, you set the
4 guidelines, do you not? I mean, there must be some
5 guidelines. We often hear the CRTC involved in making
6 these comments in the media itself when, say,
7 private -- I mean, who do we speak to? I thought we
8 spoke to you when we are concerned if the media was
9 becoming too violent, say, television or whatever, we
10 thought there should be more children's programming.
11 226 So, in a same sense, obviously,
12 economics drives a lot of this. That's what I mean.
13 Is the CRTC able to at least, if they are making
14 recommendations, let's say, the CBC, if they are not
15 doing what you consider is not their mandate, then --
16 or if they can't do their mandate because of funding,
17 can you say to the government or to yourselves, whoever
18 is going to grant this licence, "Well, gee, you need
19 this licence and you also need financing to do the job
20 that you are supposed to do"?
21 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
22 227 MR. HARRISON: Someone has to say --
23 you know, I mean, you can't just do something without
24 money. If they are cutting back and the CBC can't, you
25 know, perform their mandate because they are being cut,
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1 their funding is cut, they can't do the same quality of
2 shows or the same shows or the shows at all that they
3 are doing, the programming they are supposed to be
4 doing -- I mean, I think that's why so many of us are
5 here. We are concerned that the CBC is being watered
6 down and, you know, we enjoy it. We see it as a public
7 media, a public voice, more than commercial radio. You
8 know, they are interested in profit. The CBC isn't
9 interested in profit, it has a mandate to inform and
10 provide a cultural forum for Canadians.
11 228 I mean, we are here and we say we
12 want more funding. So I would hope you could -- you
13 know, when you are making your recommendations to the
14 CBC, well, if they don't die while we are sitting here
15 talking about it, you know, I would hope that you would
16 make a recommendation that money, funding be restored,
17 at least to their formal levels before the Mulroney
18 government or actually -- I mean, with inflation now it
19 should be even greater.
20 229 I'm saying, as a Canadian, I want
21 more media, public media. The airwaves belong to us,
22 not to a private corporation. You only grant them a
23 licence, but you still work for me and for these people
24 here, and that's the way I see it. I would hope you
25 could help us.
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1 230 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think I have said
2 pretty well all I can say. Thank you very much. We do
3 hear you.
4 231 MR. BENSON: Could I ask a short
5 question?
6 232 I'm not sure I understood. Are you
7 or are you not able to make a recommendation to
8 government that CBC funding ought to be increased to
9 meet its mandate?
10 233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Our job is to renew
11 the licences of CBC. We don't report to government.
12 We renew licences. So the question: Is CBC meeting
13 its mandate? If it is not meeting its mandate, what
14 can be done to make it better? Those are the issues
15 that -- you have seen the four questions.
16 234 MR. BENSON: Yes.
17 235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are the
18 issues that we can address.
19 236 MR. BENSON: Well, I must say in that
20 case that I think I agree with Mr. Ridd's first
21 intention that it's a waste of time to come here
22 because there is no problem with the CBC's mandate that
23 funding won't fix. If funding is restored to the CBC,
24 they will meet and exceed their mandate as they have
25 always done. If it isn't restored and if it is
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1 diminished, they will not, and it will not matter what
2 meetings like this say.
3 237 MR. RIDD: Might I just add to that,
4 and I won't make a big speech, and I know you need to
5 get on so I'm sensitive to that.
6 238 But would there not be a way of you
7 adding to whatever recommendation you make about
8 licensing, and so on, some kind of footnote that may be
9 to the effect of what in the last 10 minutes several of
10 us have tried to say about the funding, that this you
11 heard repeatedly and that it is relevant, therefore, to
12 the mandate and to what you are legitimately to rule
13 upon?
14 239 I'm not asking that it be front and
15 centre. I'm just saying, you know, in some fashion
16 getting the whole picture through, because otherwise we
17 die by having only a little technical corner of the
18 picture.
19 240 MS PINSKY: That request is now on
20 the public record and will be part of the record.
21 241 I would just note that in terms of
22 the licence renewal, that hearing will be held in May.
23 The proceeding for the licences hasn't yet begun, so
24 actually we are not sort of talking about the specific
25 licences right now.
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1 242 We are talking about the general
2 mandate. Certainly, all of the comments that have been
3 presented have related to the types of programming, as
4 I have heard it, that the presenters here and members
5 of the public wish to -- that they rely on the CBC for
6 and it is the programming that the CBC presents that
7 the Commission will be looking at in the context of its
8 licence renewal.
9 243 MS WADEPOOL: Excuse me. I'm sorry.
10 244 MS PINSKY: Yes?
11 245 MS WADEPOOL: It seems to me that I
12 heard our Chairperson say that this will probably be
13 presented to the government of the day. Didn't you say
14 something to that effect.
15 246 MS PINSKY: No. The record of this
16 proceeding will ultimately form part of the record of
17 the Commission for the purpose of the CBC's licence
18 renewal hearing. The CBC will be applying for the
19 renewal of their licences and the CRTC Commissioners
20 will be examining those applications and will hold the
21 public hearing on those specific applications, and
22 that's the purpose of this public record.
23 247 MS WADEPOOL: But will our government
24 receive copies of this so that they will know what the
25 people want?
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1 248 MS PINSKY: As we have noted, it's a
2 matter of public record and I can't speak for
3 government officials at the department.
4 249 MS WADEPOOL: It's their option to
5 look at it, then. Okay. Thank you.
6 250 MS PINSKY: Perhaps I will call on
7 the next presenter, just to ensure that everybody does
8 have an opportunity to make their presentation.
9 251 The next presenter is Trish Masniuk.
10 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
11 252 MS MASNIUK: Hello. I'm
12 Trish Masniuk, and I want to thank both the CRTC and
13 the CBC for the amount of time, energy and resources
14 that they are devoting to this, which I consider a
15 really vital question.
16 253 Now, it's rare for me to speak out in
17 a national forum like this. I do speak out quite a bit
18 on local issues, but I'm not a presentation groupie.
19 It's my first time speaking before a CRTC hearing. The
20 last time I remember feeling quite this passionate
21 about it, and I'm speaking here because I feel very
22 passionate about the issue of the CBC, was back when I
23 was in college and the B&B Commission was coming
24 through which, since that predates the Beatlemania and
25 Trudeaumania, gives you a bit of an idea of the
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1 strength with which I feel what is going on, because I
2 feel, with this, with the issue of CBC now, as with our
3 need to bridge our solitudes back in the sixties, we
4 are at a crossroads.
5 254 It is absolutely vital that we
6 realize just how serious this question about the CBC is
7 and the fact that you, as the CRTC, hold in your hands
8 the power of dismantling the webwork, the network from
9 high and low and across the country that really holds
10 us together.
11 255 CBC has woven through the fabric of
12 our country and it has also woven through the fabric of
13 my life. I am a CBC addict, self-admitted,
14 particularly radio, but CBC radio and television. As a
15 young child growing up in Manitoba's Interlake we
16 didn't have electricity yet but we did have a
17 battery-powered set. We would bring the car battery in
18 and hook it up and listen to it.
19 256 Eventually we did have electricity
20 and there was a television that one of the families had
21 and all the other families went over to watch. I have
22 to admit that when listening to Twilight Zone on that
23 flickering set or watching it, or listening to a radio
24 drama with the howling of the coyotes set a certain
25 standard for what I have looked for in terms of really
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1 all-absorbing drama.
2 257 But CBC has brought a lot more than
3 that to me. It has brought the voices of my community
4 and the communities from around the world to me.
5 258 When I moved out to the West Coast
6 and then to Montreal, it kept me in touch with familiar
7 voices because of the national character of the
8 broadcasting. As a grad student in the U.S. I looked
9 forward to As It Happens to try to keep me anchored and
10 clued in to what was really happening, the kinds of
11 things that even with public television and public
12 radio down there we didn't get.
13 259 I'm not sure how fully people who
14 have not lived outside Canada really realize just how
15 precious this resource that we take for granted is,
16 this voice that we take for granted.
17 260 Right now as a person who lives in
18 the heart of the west end and is very much involved in
19 community development, I realize what a vital role the
20 local programming has played.
21 261 I have also had a once-in-a-lifetime
22 experience. I live in the Buen (ph) Peterson house,
23 the one with the icelandic murals that has emerged to
24 the attention of Winnipeg and the country, largely
25 through a local broadcaster here in Winnipeg, Meagan
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1 Ketchison (ph), the local CBC traffic commentator. Her
2 interview at eight o'clock in the morning led to this
3 once-in-a-lifetime experience. Within 24 hours of
4 being in colour on the front page of both major
5 newspapers -- and unlike Lady Di or Mother Theresa, I
6 didn't have to be dead yet or commit a major crime or
7 anything, but it also helped me realize what the power
8 of it was because, within hours, as well as the
9 newspapers there was Reuters (ph) knocking on my door;
10 Mary-Lou Finlay from As It Happens was spreading the
11 word across the country.
12 262 What that has done, both to my
13 research on that history but also to the perception of
14 the strength of our past in the west end and therefore
15 the power of our future, a neighbourhood that was
16 really under siege is extremely powerful -- I don't
17 know any other webwork of radio and television that
18 reaches from that grassroots to the national and
19 international level that could have captured things
20 like that and catapulted it from the local onto the
21 national and international scene.
22 263 Now, from time to time I replay that
23 Mary-Lou Finlay tape in which she starts out saying
24 "Well, this is an ordinary house in an ordinary
25 neighbourhood" and I keep on saying to myself "Well,
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1 Mary-Lou, not so ordinary house, not so ordinary
2 neighbourhood." And that's true with CBC, too, it's
3 not so ordinary a network. It's not like the other
4 networks you are dealing with, the commercial networks.
5 This has a greater responsibility, a much greater
6 power.
7 264 Now, what makes CBC different? Part
8 of it is what you stated before at the beginning of our
9 discussion here: its mandate of public service. It's
10 also its English, French and other voices of diversity.
11 It's the fact that it's in radio, television, Internet
12 and so many different forums.
13 265 Also, that it not only broadcasts our
14 voice internationally but brings international voices
15 to us. Being a person who is often up with the Late
16 Night Radio, I get a chance to hear all these many
17 voices from around the world on the overnight Radio One
18 programs.
19 266 It weaves us together. It's
20 something when I get together with good friends from
21 other parts of the country. We have a common cultural
22 context in a way that we would not have other than CBC,
23 and it's really delightful to see my thirtyish son
24 having become a CBC addict as well.
25 267 There are disappointments that I have
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1 with the funding cutbacks. There is no question of
2 that. But I see some real positives and one of them
3 was the renewed commitment of CBC to regional and local
4 programming by building a new and expanded building
5 here in the heart of the country and in the heart of
6 the inner city.
7 268 It is important, I think, for CRTC to
8 support and to strengthen that regional reach
9 throughout the country, because the number of licences
10 you choose to renew and where you renew them are really
11 vital in keeping that webwork alive. It is not a bunch
12 of isolated stations. It is a vital living creature, a
13 living body.
14 269 The way I see the cutbacks which have
15 happened, yes, they have been hurting our programming
16 to a large extent, and I do hope that when you are
17 trying to evaluate whether its living up to its
18 mandate, you will, as the other presenters have asked
19 you, please look at how much has been in their control
20 and how much of it has been imposed on them by these
21 funding cuts.
22 270 But you, as the CRTC, do have the
23 really essential power in terms of a licensing renewal
24 to maintain this high-to-low and this across-the-nation
25 structure. The CBC has the responsibility of
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1 allocating the resources its given responsibly to keep
2 this alive and to keep this balance and diversity
3 going. There is no question that the losses of funding
4 cutbacks, where we have a lost a whole number of the
5 familiar and valued voices and the current labour
6 dispute which is putting us in a very much of a
7 withdrawal situation with respect to some of our
8 favourite programs but is maybe making us realize just
9 how important those programs are, is giving us an
10 opportunity to review and value what we have.
11 271 But the important thing I think is to
12 recognize this network as a network, not just a
13 collection of stations.
14 272 In closing, I would like to remind
15 all of us that it is our network. At this local level
16 it is a local voice, it is an important element of our
17 national identity, it is an important element of our
18 international reputation, our reputation for fairness,
19 for diversity, of what makes us different from the U.S.
20 273 As the CRTC and the CBC both try to
21 guide this network into the new millennium, I think it
22 is going to have to come out of a shared vision. Now,
23 it is a tripod. The funding does come from the
24 government, which is from somewhere else, but there is
25 an important element which CRTC has to play in terms of
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1 defending the value of that to the country, to us as a
2 country.
3 274 Through the funding, there is also
4 the responsibility of providing fairness and balance of
5 a full spectrum voice, and that is a voice through
6 technology including looking at the new technologies
7 and the Internet. I don't know quite how they are
8 going to be regulated.
9 275 I think, though, within all that, we
10 have to keep in mind that it is not possible to solve
11 funding problems by being unfair to individual workers,
12 whether that's younger workers who because they aren't
13 getting fair wages have to go off somewhere else, or
14 older workers who are given the golden handshake long
15 before they are ready to silence their voices and long
16 before we are ready to give up listening to the value
17 that their voices give to us. It can't be done at the
18 cost of individual -- I mean, of regional needs, but
19 that also is a place where you, as the CRTC, have a
20 role in terms of the licences you grant. It is also
21 important that the special sector voices be retained,
22 and that's one of the things that is most put at hazard
23 when there are funding cuts or when there are numbers
24 of outlet cuts.
25 276 So somehow what we have to learn is
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1 to find a way of adapting without cutting our
2 hamstrings, without severing vital nerves, without
3 chopping off limbs, and again that's where CRTC comes
4 in, or cutting out the heart of the CBC.
5 277 One area that especially concerns me
6 with respect to that is the reporting relationship of
7 the head of the CBC, and I'm not sure if that's within
8 the purview of the CRTC. But if the leadership
9 position within the CBC becomes something that is at
10 the whim of the government of the day rather than at
11 the service of the needs of the people of Canada,
12 something absolutely critical will have been damaged in
13 CBC. The silence that will come from the fear of what
14 might happen to a career by allowing the diversity of
15 programming will hurt us at one fell swoop, far greater
16 than even the funding cuts, and we know how damaging
17 those have been.
18 278 There has to be an independence, and
19 I do believe and hope that the CRTC would have a strong
20 voice within -- really clarifying how vital that is to
21 the ability to fulfil the mandate and who exactly the
22 CBC is responsible to.
23 279 There was talk earlier about the
24 taming of the CBC. I consider trying to put that as
25 a -- to politicize that appointment to be dismissable
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1 at whim as being intimidation not just taming.
2 280 As a final note, one of the earlier
3 commentators commented that the CBC might be the glue
4 that holds our country together. I see it as far more
5 than that. It is in fact like a seed catalogue, like a
6 nursery that provides a warm and a nurturing climate
7 for voices new and old and that scatters seeds through
8 cross-fertilization of a hybrid that goes far beyond
9 what we would ever imagine and that go far beyond the
10 borders of the CBC itself.
11 281 If we lose that heritage seed
12 treasury, we have really lost a very, very great deal
13 as a nation and maybe we have lost so much that our
14 very survival may be put in jeopardy. It's the seeds
15 for our future.
16 282 Thank you.
17 283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
18 Ms Masniuk.
19 284 I am proposing that we would take a
20 short break, 10 to 15 minutes. The other room is out
21 on break and you can probably hear them. Then we would
22 resume at a quarter to 3:00.
23 --- Short recess at 1437 / Courte suspension à 1437
24 --- Upon resuming at 1451 / Reprise à 1451
25 285 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we could
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1 reconvene.
2 286 We will be calling more people to
3 come and sit at the table. Those of you who have
4 provided your presentation, you may be more comfortable
5 now sitting in the other seating because we will be
6 having another group of people around the table.
7 287 Ms Pinsky will call those
8 individuals.
9 288 MS PINSKY: In addition, to the three
10 remaining presenters from prior to the break, I will
11 ask Mary Hewitt-Smith please to come up; Jesse Vorst;
12 David Northcott; Cheryl Ashton; Gordon Toombs.
13 289 MR. TOOMBS: You called me before.
14 290 MS PINSKY: Yes. I'm sorry. You are
15 here.
16 291 And Carol Vivier, please.
17 --- Short pause / Courte pause
18 292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just find yourself
19 a seat beside a microphone.
20 293 MS PINSKY: To accommodate schedules,
21 we will ask Mr. Jesse Vorst please to be the first
22 presenter this afternoon.
23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
24 294 MR. VORST: Thank you very much.
25 295 I appreciate that I'm given this
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1 privilege not just of speaking here but also in moving
2 up in the ranking. I have to be back at work in about
3 45 minutes and it's a long day starting at 7:30 this
4 morning and we will finish by about 9:30, 10:00
5 tonight.
6 296 I very much commend the CRTC for this
7 exercise in consulted democracy. I think it's a great
8 event and I want to use the opportunity, by the way, to
9 congratulate the CRTC decision to award a licence to
10 our aboriginal community. I think it is a landmark in
11 Canadian broadcasting.
12 297 Unfortunately, I have been unable to
13 write something. Time is short and I will just make
14 some comments. Later on I will quote from something
15 which I wrote at an earlier time.
16 298 Let me explain just for the record
17 that I am what we normally call a New Canadian. I came
18 here as a Centennial immigrant in 1967 during the
19 Pan-Am games. I had heard those horrible stories about
20 North American broadcasting. That's the only news that
21 filters into Europe from North America that is all
22 commercialized.
23 299 Then I came to Winnipeg and I
24 discovered this absolutely marvellous agency called the
25 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and its French
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1 division called Radio-Canada. If there is one reason,
2 I will be very frank about that, if there is one reason
3 why I stayed in Canada, even though I came here only as
4 almost an occasional employee, it was because of the
5 CBC and because of Radio-Canada. There is nothing
6 anywhere in the world resembling this.
7 300 It is the institution that has taught
8 me what it means to be a Canadian, has taught me what
9 Canada is all about, what the people of Canada are all
10 about. It simply has made an impression on me, unlike
11 anything else I have ever experienced.
12 301 The CBC provides information to
13 Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and everything
14 in between. Not just the little tidbits, not a story
15 about, you know, whose cat bit what dog, its the
16 substantive issues that are being covered by the CBC,
17 issues, events people.
18 302 I teach economics and labour studies
19 at the University of Manitoba. Only the CBC provides
20 in depth, adequate coverage in matters of economics.
21 No other radio station, TV station or printed media
22 paid any attention to the collapse of the western
23 economy in the past 10 years. Nobody talked about the
24 fallout of the demise of the Soviet Union except for
25 the CBC.
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1 303 Only the CBC provides adequate
2 coverage of labour issues. The poor are only heard on
3 the CBC. They are also being seen, I must say, on the
4 Vision channel which I'm very grateful for that we have
5 that on our local cable.
6 304 Adam Smith, the founder of capitalism
7 as some people call it, Adam Smith warned us never to
8 hand over education and culture to the marketplace
9 because as Adam Smith says, when two business people
10 get together you can be assured that they are trying to
11 do the public out of something that belongs to the
12 public, and then of course only to fill their own
13 pockets. Now, I'm using my words, not Adam Smith's
14 words, but you can look it up.
15 305 About 12 years ago, 11 years ago, I
16 visited the old CBC building on Jarvis Street in
17 Toronto. There I saw on the bulletin board pinned
18 something with the University of Manitoba logo, and
19 being very shortsighted of course I had to go and stand
20 very close, and I suddenly realized they had pinned up
21 something that I had written, that I had written and I
22 had sent earlier somewhere because people ask me for my
23 opinion.
24 306 Actually, it started out when I sent
25 somebody an e-mail which has a signature, one of my
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1 many signatures on the e-mail, that "Heaven is a folk
2 festival". I have been a folk festival supporter and
3 volunteer for almost 20 years now. Also, thanks to
4 CBC, by the way, with Peter Gzowski of course being
5 such an eminent host. And somebody asked me: If
6 Heaven is a folk festival, what else are they doing
7 there? I said, "Well, they listen to the CBC", and we
8 got to talk about it, and finally I wrote the following
9 down, and it is old, it is a dozen years old:
10 "In Heaven they eat with Motion
11 in Music, RSVP or other CBC
12 classical music programs. Then
13 they clean up and do the dishes
14 with As It Happens. They enrich
15 the mind with Ideas, Quirks &
16 Quarks and State of the Arts,
17 they relax with Morningside,
18 Simply Folk or Max Ferguson,
19 they reminisce with The
20 Transcontinental, Otto
21 Lowie (ph) or Max Ferguson, they
22 laugh with the Radio Show and
23 the Royal Canadian Air Farce,
24 they cry with Business World
25 from sadness and with A Joyful
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1 Sound from happiness. They
2 remain superbly informed as to
3 what's happening down there on
4 that good old Earth with World
5 Report, Canada at 5:00, The
6 World at 6:00, The Inside Track,
7 The Media File, The Medicine
8 Show, Sunday Morning, Cross
9 Country Checkup and The House,
10 and they wonder up there in
11 Heaven why anyone calling
12 himself or herself a true
13 Canadian would dare to cut the
14 budget and destroy it all." (As
15 read)
16 307 I wrote that, as I say, about a dozen
17 things ago. Things haven't changed except that the
18 programming has become poorer. Less money means less
19 freedom to develop new ideas. Still the CBC has been
20 able to maintain its quality in terms of personnel.
21 308 I do a lot of media work. They call
22 me all the time, at least one interview a day, and it
23 always strikes me there are no better informed
24 journalists in this city, and indeed across the country
25 because I get calls from elsewhere too, no better
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1 journalists than the CBC people. They prepare. They
2 know what questions to ask and they actually use my
3 material in a fair and unbiased manner. I have never
4 been misquoted on a CBC program, unlike some of the
5 other printed media where it does occur.
6 309 Today I work 12 hours a day, six and
7 a half days a week. CBC is on all the time. When it's
8 something I do which allows me to listen to spoken
9 word, there is plenty on the radio. When I want to
10 hear the music just think of Saturdays, Pearls of
11 Wisdom, The Vinyl Cafe with that marvellous man Stuart
12 MacLean who succeeded so well our beloved late Clyde
13 Gilmor (ph), Sound Advice with Rick Phillips (ph), The
14 Collector's Corner, terrific programs.
15 310 Where else in Canada do we get that?
16 Nowhere, because the marketplace is not the place that
17 would propagate quality programming including quality
18 music, never mind quality exchange of information.
19 311 Inside Track; where else do we get an
20 intelligent discussion on what is happening in sports?
21 Writers and Company; Tapestry; of course As It Happens;
22 Ideas with Lister Sinclair, who by the way was the one
23 who pinned up my notice on that board in the old
24 building on Jarvis Street.
25 312 Peter Gzowski could be very
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1 irritating sometimes the way he spoke, the things he
2 mentioned, but a little incident, and I will close with
3 that, what happened years ago. It was on Victoria Day
4 when Peter Gzowski had on the show our own Maestro
5 Tovie (ph), and Maestro Tovie said to Peter, he said
6 "Gzowski, isn't that Polish?" "Heavens, no", said
7 Peter, "It's Canadian."
8 313 That's why I support the CBC. It is
9 a Canadian program. It is not inward looking, but
10 looks out to the wild world. It tells the world what
11 we are as Canadians and it tells Canadians what is
12 inside Canada and what is going on outside in the
13 world. There is nothing like it anywhere.
14 314 Please renew their licence and if you
15 have any influence with the government, please get them
16 the money they need to do the work they used to do
17 20 years ago so well.
18 315 Thank you.
19 --- Applause / Applaudissement
20 316 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
21 Mr. Vorst.
22 317 MR. VORST: Okay. My apologies, but
23 I have to leave for work.
24 318 Thank you.
25 319 MS PINSKY: Mr. Gordon Toombs.
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1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
2 320 MR. TOOMBS: Thank you for the
3 opportunity.
4 321 I would like to start with question
5 three:
6 "Should the programming of CBC
7 be different from other
8 broadcasters and what should
9 these differences be?"
10 (As read)
11 322 We live in a commercial and a
12 business world where it is continually dinned in our
13 ears that the market is the measure of all things. In
14 a consumer society everything becomes a commodity which
15 can be bought and sold. In the airwaves, supply and
16 demand is determined by the largest number of
17 consumers, the largest audience, in other words, the
18 lowest common denominator.
19 323 In preparation for this I consulted
20 the federal statute, the Broadcasting Act, and I have
21 discovered that it uses several very distinct clauses.
22 324 The first one is a distinctive word
23 in describing the mandate of the CBC. I quote:
24 "...providing programming that
25 reflects Canadian attitudes,
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1 opinions, ideas, values and
2 artistic creativity." (As read)
3 325 And in another place:
4 "...reflecting the circumstances
5 and aspirations of Canadian men,
6 women and children." (As read)
7 326 The role of the CBC is to be a
8 reflector. That's the key word "reflector". It occurs
9 several times. That means that the founding
10 visionaries of our public broadcasting system saw it as
11 a disinterested party reflecting back to Canadians the
12 whole spectrum of what we are and what we are about.
13 327 In the cacophony of the radio and TV
14 marketplace, the role of a disinterested reflector is
15 beyond price. Private broadcasters have their place
16 and the social fabric of our nation is richer because
17 of them. But as we all know in a free enterprise
18 system, the owner and the sponsor have the privilege of
19 putting their spin on whatever goes over the airways.
20 The high cost of broadcasting being what it is, that
21 means that the public gets what the business elite can
22 pay for.
23 328 The founders of the CBC long ago saw
24 the need for an alternative to the marketplace.
25 Appealing to the lowest common denominator and the
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1 biggest audience was not its reason for existing and
2 it's even stated in the Act. I quote:
3 "Alternative television
4 programming should be innovative
5 and be complementary to the
6 programming provided for mass
7 audiences." (As read)
8 329 Part two of the question: How should
9 the CBC be different? Because the Broadcasting Act
10 requires that it be different.
11 330 I quote again:
12 "...cater to tastes and
13 interests not adequately
14 provided for by the programming
15 that is otherwise provided for
16 mass audiences including
17 programming devoted to culture
18 and the arts and that reflect
19 Canada's regions and
20 multicultural nature."
21 (As read)
22 331 One historical difference and one of
23 its main attractions has been the absence of
24 advertising and commercial sponsorship. I protest the
25 CBC's growing dependence on commercials. Surely, we
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1 can have one channel of communication between ourselves
2 which is independent of the marketplace.
3 332 Another difference, I and my friends
4 like and support investigative journalism and
5 consumer-oriented programs currently being broadcast
6 and which have a sterling reputation. Now, the private
7 broadcasters will argue that they can do that as well
8 as the CBC.
9 333 But may I remind you, Madam Chair,
10 what a conflict of interest it was for the Columbia
11 Broadcasting System a few years ago when they began to
12 do an investigative journalism on the tobacco companies
13 and what happened to them when they got caught between
14 one of their most lucrative sponsors. This is
15 something the CBC can do.
16 334 We also need more programs for
17 children, both educational and entertaining. These
18 programs must continue without commercial sponsors for
19 young minds are exceedingly impressionable. You may
20 recall that recently Sesame Street, the well-known
21 children's program in the United States has succumbed
22 to commercials. Perhaps as Ralph Nader says, they
23 should change the name from Sesame Street to Huckster
24 Alley.
25 335 Need I remind the Commission we have
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1 children today who readily can identify a dozen or two
2 dozen commercial logos, corporate logos, but they can't
3 name six different species of trees or birds. Is that
4 what we want?
5 336 Another difference comes to mind and
6 that is the CBC's tradition of high standards in the
7 quality of programs offered, in the balance of
8 information offered on matters of public interest, and
9 in the use of the English language, good language and
10 pronunciation.
11 337 Concerning sports programming, I am a
12 basic cable subscriber and have no interest in an all
13 sports channel. I would appreciate some sports
14 coverage, but not six weeks of program interruptions
15 every spring by the National Hockey League finals. It
16 is essential of course that events in which Canadian
17 athletes are competing be adequately covered.
18 338 Another difference, and this refers
19 to question four, the special role of the CBC as the
20 national broadcaster. I quote the Act again. Quote:
21 "...to provide a public service
22 essential to the maintenance and
23 enhancement of national identity
24 and cultural sovereignty."
25 (As read)
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1 339 No private radio or channel exists to
2 remind us of our history, provide independent coverage
3 of all national events and to keep us aware of each
4 other from sea to sea to sea.
5 340 Returning to question one:
6 "How well does the CBC fulfil
7 its role and what should happen
8 in the new millennium?"
9 (As read)
10 341 First of all, it cannot fulfil its
11 role as a national public broadcaster because of the
12 budget cutbacks which have been greater than for any
13 other Crown corporation. The hostility of both the
14 Mulroney and Chrétien governments to the CBC is
15 evidence. An acquaintance of mine who happens to be a
16 senator told me privately that the hidden agenda is to
17 save the CBC radio and proceed toward the privatization
18 of CBC TV. It looks that way.
19 342 The CBC cannot carry out its mandate
20 under the present financial restrictions. The
21 shortwave service to the world was saved at the last
22 minute. Now it's the correspondents in Africa and Asia
23 who cannot be maintained. Even Lloyd Axworthy insists
24 that we need Canadian eyes and ears in key areas of the
25 world.
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1 343 In short, with 30 per cent of
2 broadcast time now devoted to reruns, the CBC can
3 neither do its job nor maintain its audience nor fulfil
4 its mandate by Act of Parliament.
5 344 Part two, concerning the new
6 millennium, faced with the rapidity of technological
7 change, the many new channels, the declining TV
8 audience across North America and the increasing number
9 of citizens with the Internet service, I support the
10 expansion of CBC into digital broadcasting and the
11 worldwide web.
12 345 By the way, the Broadcasting Act even
13 foresaw that long ago, decades ago. I quote again. It
14 said that the CBC should be:
15 "...readily adaptable to
16 scientific and technological
17 change." (As read)
18 346 A brief answer on question two
19 concerning regional service. The CBC did a better job
20 15 or 20 years ago than it is doing today with the
21 budget cuts.
22 347 I would like to remind the Commission
23 of the original mandate again, quote:
24 "...that it be predominantly and
25 distinctively Canadian, that it
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1 reflect Canada and its regions
2 to national and regional
3 audiences while serving the
4 special needs of each
5 region." (As read)
6 348 The Act talks about:
7 "...a balance between local,
8 regional, national and
9 international sources."
10 (As read)
11 349 And I'm quoting there:
12 "This can only be achieved by
13 adequate and active regional
14 broadcast centres." (As read)
15 350 So in conclusion, Madam Chair, I
16 suggest that please renew the local CBC licence. We
17 need it.
18 351 From what we have heard today about
19 your role as a regulatory agency, I gather we are all
20 going to have to storm the doors of our Members of
21 Parliament if we are going to get any action.
22 352 Thank you.
23 --- Applause / Applaudissement
24 353 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
25 Mr. Toombs.
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1 354 MS PINSKY: Brian McLeod.
2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
3 355 MR. McLEOD: Brian McLeod is my name,
4 and my discussion is as a private citizen commenting on
5 how the local political scene is reported.
6 356 I would like to offer my opinion on
7 the role CBC radio locally is playing today and the
8 role I feel it should play.
9 357 Let me begin by saying I think the
10 people in Winnipeg are poorly served by the media, that
11 is by all media including radio, television and
12 newspapers.
13 358 The media collectively in Winnipeg is
14 usually bland and superficial. It does not know or
15 even care what the issues are. They don't know what is
16 really going on in the community. It is not prepared
17 to do any in-depth looking and reporting. It only
18 pretends.
19 359 It also is suggested here that the
20 performance of CBC radio on local issues is no better
21 nor any worse than any other media outlet. There is a
22 vital role here in Winnipeg that is easily identified
23 that would allow CBC radio to function effectively if
24 taken to heart and really thought through. It is my
25 thought that the Canadian Radio-television Commission
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1 grants a broadcasting licence without any real
2 examination of the role it is intended to fill, nor
3 does it follow through on performance to see what is
4 being done in the public interest.
5 360 Heaven forbid, it is not my intention
6 that CBC radio should be told what to broadcast, but to
7 say CBC radio can only make a real contribution to
8 community affairs when it has carefully looked at the
9 issues, this requires a lot of hard unremitting toil in
10 balance with the allocation of scarce resources to what
11 is important in news gathering.
12 361 What is being referred to here is the
13 reporting of the local political process, that is, the
14 community committee system of government in place in
15 the City of Winnipeg. It is at this level, basic
16 level, that decisions affecting the lives of thousands
17 and thousands of citizens is made and it is this level
18 that is poorly reported or ignored entirely.
19 362 It has been said the business of
20 government is boring. This is true, a lot of it is.
21 It takes patience and dedication to learn the process
22 of the community committee level and it takes patience
23 and dedication to stick to it and report it in a lively
24 and relevant manner. Of course it takes a management
25 that understands this. The CRTC and CBC radio
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1 management should certainly understand this. The
2 community committee system has been in Winnipeg since
3 1972, that is, 27 years, waiting for the media to catch
4 onto its role and importance. It bears repeating.
5 363 Reporting the community committee is
6 not glamorous and it would take a firm hand to see that
7 the process is kept sight of day by day, week by week.
8 The community committee level is a most important step
9 in the process and it is a direct connection between
10 citizens and the political process. Citizens learn the
11 process when issues they are interested in are dealt
12 with and reported on and learn the valuable lesson that
13 they, too, can participate and indeed are encouraged to
14 do so.
15 364 Over the years I have attended many
16 community committee meetings on traffic issues related
17 to our neighbourhood and have observed media interest
18 or rather the lack of it. Through dozens of these
19 meetings I cannot recall once seeing CBC radio there
20 and, in fact, rarely any media at all. Agendas are
21 always available, but they sit their unexamined by any
22 media and therefore the issues go unreported.
23 365 I strongly suspect that somewhere in
24 the past a conscious or unconscious decision has been
25 made by CBC radio that attending community committee
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1 meetings is not productive or rewarding and is unlikely
2 to produce the level of excitement producers think the
3 audience wants to hear. The mundane rules here.
4 366 While my theory is unsupported by
5 scientific evidence, I estimate, from many years of
6 observation, that 50 per cent of taxes collected by the
7 city are spent inefficiently. This is largely because
8 there is no media watchdog analysing and reporting, and
9 much of this spending originates at the community
10 committee level.
11 367 An example of poor reporting is the
12 Charleswood (ph) Bridge. Prior to its construction in
13 1995, it was discussed many times at community
14 committee meetings. Naturally, it was controversial.
15 While it did receive some media attention, no real
16 in-depth analysis was ever done and reported on. This
17 is unbelievable since this was a $30 million project.
18 368 In a report prepared by traffic
19 engineers, it was stated that if the bridge stops at
20 Robin Boulevard and does not proceed to Grant Avenue
21 that the bridge should not be built because of traffic
22 levels local residential streets would experience.
23 Politics prevailed. The Province of Manitoba earmarked
24 $13 million and provided this amount to the City of
25 Winnipeg on the condition that it be used immediately
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1 in bridge construction. The city took the grant and
2 the project stopped at Robin Boulevard. This, despite
3 evidence that local residential streets would be
4 overwhelmed by bridge traffic. The predicted volumes
5 and problems the engineering report predicted are only
6 too accurate.
7 369 Here was an issue crying out for real
8 coverage and did not get it.
9 370 In 1996, with the first anniversary
10 of the bridge approaching, I had a call from CBC radio
11 seeking comments about the impact the bridge had on the
12 community. I asked what treatment they were planning,
13 and just being disappointed with their answer turned
14 them down. They called back with an expanded format
15 which went well. Three local organizations have been
16 spontaneously formed to protest what traffic volumes
17 have done to this residential neighbourhood and they
18 approached CBC radio and were given very brief
19 interviews.
20 371 With the second anniversary
21 approaching in 1997, and no relief by the city in
22 sight, I called CBC radio but got no response.
23 372 Just as an aside, the City of
24 Winnipeg capital budget calls for construction of a
25 connection to Grant Avenue in 2002, but I would suggest
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1 you not make plans to move to the neighbourhood until
2 you see the connection in place.
3 373 A further example, in 1998, an
4 application for rezoning was submitted to the city.
5 This would have resulted in smaller lot sizes.
6 Connecting roadways were planned that would have
7 brought increased traffic. One neighbourhood
8 organization, realizing of course the already severe
9 traffic burden generated on residential streets by the
10 bridge, urged local residents to attend the community
11 committee meeting that would hear the application.
12 Ninety-three residents attended and naturally the
13 application was turned down.
14 374 These are huge numbers concerning an
15 issue of real magnitude in the area. Information
16 concerning this issue was available in the clerks
17 office in advance, but no media other than Metro One
18 thought it worthy of attention. In fact, my opinion
19 from watching its performance over the years is I don't
20 think any of the media had a clue what was happening.
21 375 What is needed of course is a
22 revolution in the way CBC reports local politics, that
23 is, develop a feel for it and give coverage a genuine
24 effort. To quote Gor Vidal (ph):
25 "Who collects what money from
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1 whom in order to spend on what
2 is all there is to politics and
3 should be the central
4 preoccupation of the
5 media." (As read)
6 376 I think the CBC has a vital role to
7 play in the lives of Canadians and this is a time for
8 change and renewal.
9 377 Thank you for the opportunity to
10 prevent my views.
11 378 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
12 Mr. McLeod.
13 379 MS PINSKY: I will ask
14 Jamie Davidson.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 380 MS DAVIDSON: Thank you.
17 381 The reason I have chosen to come and
18 speak to you today is because I'm afraid that the CRTC
19 and citizens of Canada might underestimate the
20 influence the CBC has on individual citizens.
21 382 My reflections are highly personal
22 and mostly related to CBC radio. Although having said
23 that, my initial reflections are on CBC television.
24 383 In the mid-sixties, my first
25 recollection of CBC and the role it would play in my
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1 life as a 10-year old, I saw two displays of compassion
2 levelled at CBC.
3 384 I have vivid memories of my father
4 lying on the couch either snoozing or watching
5 television. In his own living room he was very
6 opinionated and very intolerant. I recall when
7 Festival -- I don't know if any of you recall that
8 program when it came on -- my father levelled angry,
9 inflammatory, derogatory remarks toward the
10 programming.
11 385 My mother, on the other hand,
12 expresses an opposite picture. She was a career woman
13 in the beginning of the late fifties -- her career
14 began, sorry, in the late fifties. She was a curious
15 and compassionate woman. She seldom watched
16 television. However, surprisingly, she took an hour a
17 week to watch This Hour Has Seven Days with Lori
18 Lapierre (ph) and Patrick Watson. As a child I felt
19 curiosity and respect for this program that warranted
20 my mother's undivided attention.
21 386 In my formative years, at 18-years
22 old, living in Calgary with a group of people, I recall
23 the impact of As It Happens. Alan Maitland was
24 penetrating a secret mercenary contact network located
25 in a pub in Ireland. I didn't know what a mercenary
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1 was. At that point I realized that the world was much
2 bigger than my limited horizon.
3 387 At 19, having left Calgary moving to
4 Saskatoon, I recall one morning with Judy Lemarsh, Don
5 Heron, and I'm afraid I don't remember the other
6 participants, celebrating the end of Judy Lemarsh's
7 stint in This Country In the Morning. The sense of
8 laughter and camaraderie delighted my 19-year old mind.
9 388 At 20, having moved back to Winnipeg,
10 As It Happens again thrilled me as I remember listening
11 to an interview with the President of Iceland regarding
12 the cod wars. I was thrilled because this interview
13 was addressing a research paper that I was working on
14 at that point.
15 389 Another move further west to
16 Lethbridge, continued contact with CBC radio and then a
17 move to Ottawa.
18 390 Ottawa at 22. My partner was newly
19 employed with Environment Canada and was off for three
20 weeks in the field the second day that we arrived in
21 the city. Feeling that I had arrived at the other side
22 of this magnificent country but a side that was foreign
23 and in the beginning somewhat cold, I felt very much on
24 my own, unpacking boxes, no one to share the experience
25 of a new home or a new city. I vividly recall moving
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1 with despondence into our kitchen and turning on the
2 radio. As I rotated the tuning dial looking for
3 something, for some satisfaction, Don Heron's voice
4 filled my kitchen. I wept. I was no longer on my own.
5 I was part of something much bigger.
6 391 It hadn't occurred to my conscious
7 mind that CBC was indeed a national radio, and at that
8 moment I fully realized the power and the influence CBC
9 plays in the life of individual Canadian citizens.
10 Again, when I most needed to be, I was part of one
11 country.
12 392 I could regale you with specific
13 stories of precious and significant moments the CBC has
14 played in my life. I have spent the last 18 years in a
15 community with a focus on research and development.
16 Many citizens from many other countries have visited
17 and moved to our community. The consistent
18 recommendation to the new families is: In order to get
19 a sense of Canada tune into CBC radio.
20 393 I recall laughing out loud as
21 Peter Gzowski encountered fruit flies in his studio as
22 he interviewed an herbologist. I recall feeling
23 honoured and delighted to be welcomed to eavesdrop on a
24 conversation between Peter Gzowski and Farley Mowatt.
25 I recall crying with compassion, identification and
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1 understanding at a letter sent to Morningside from
2 another citizen from our great country. I recall
3 knowing the pride I felt as a Canadian and the respect
4 I felt for the countless brave and insightful Canadian
5 individuals whose stories have been told on CBC.
6 394 If by now you have glazed over after
7 listening to the accolades I heap upon CBC, I would
8 like you to wipe away the glaze and listen to what I
9 have to say.
10 395 Eighteen years ago today, I
11 experienced the miracle of birth and was blessed with a
12 wonderful a son, a son who blended humour, sensitivity,
13 physical strength and intelligence into his daily
14 existence. Two years' ago last Saturday my son died.
15 I have no desire to be melodramatic. I have not got
16 the words to express the devastation his death has had
17 on my soul. Cynics and perhaps others would feel that
18 what I have to say borders on the ludicrous, but it is
19 indeed a fact.
20 396 Through the intense grief and
21 isolation I have felt and continue to feel when family
22 and friends would not or could not reach into the depth
23 of my sorrow, many times it was the people on CBC who
24 made me realize that people do still live. They are
25 still thinking and debating and complaining and
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1 laughing. Canada's heart still beats strongly,
2 strongly, I might add, in light of adverse cutbacks.
3 397 I have heard people speak of CBC as
4 elitist. Knowing quite well what elitism means, I
5 cannot but translate this into alienation. If I'm not
6 part of the elite, then I am alienated from what they
7 are doing. I believe we are alienated if we are made
8 to feel uncomfortable.
9 398 I recall my father's rage when he was
10 confronted with the unusual and unfamiliar arts world
11 portrayed in Festival. I am sorry that certain
12 individuals are unable to look beyond their comfortable
13 world and at least recognize that there is a world
14 beyond our tightly defined horizons. I am sorry that
15 some of us do not appreciate the challenge of
16 investigation and representation of alternates points
17 of view, but I am grateful the CBC has throughout my
18 life reminded me that I am part of a much bigger
19 picture. It has invited me to question my biases and
20 to hear other opinions, to weigh the information, to
21 think. I have had the chance to listen, feel for and
22 appreciate Canadians and I have not been alone. There
23 has been no other medium that has come remotely close
24 to doing this for me.
25 399 Do not underestimate the influence
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1 CBC has had on individual Canadians. Do not assume for
2 a moment that the sense we have of our fellow
3 Canadians, our diverse regions, our national and
4 individual celebrations and heartaches would be as
5 strong as it is today without the work of CBC and those
6 with the vision of its success.
7 400 With regard to past cuts and future
8 funding, and at the risk of sounding overly aggressive,
9 I will paraphrase a prophetic phrase I implore the CBC
10 to consider: If one believes the cost of education and
11 knowledge is too great, one ought to try to fathom the
12 cost of ignorance.
13 401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
14 Ms Davidson.
15 --- Applause / Applaudissement
16 402 MS PINSKY: Mary Hewitt-Smith is the
17 next presenter.
18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
19 403 MS HEWITT-SMITH: Fellow Canadians,
20 addressing you as a public citizen today I recall a
21 speech I made 10 years ago when I talked about two
22 things that united our country.
23 404 Today we have already lost our
24 continental railway and our Canadian Broadcasting
25 Corporation is constantly being weakened link by link.
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1 405 In the past, the CBC has expressed
2 our values, formed the stories from which our history
3 is written, expressed our culture and explored our
4 visions of the future.
5 406 Today the CBC has been unique in
6 celebrating and promoting our identity as a nation,
7 unlike the commercial stations which have no such
8 mandate or interest. Everyone knows of the vast
9 cutbacks by the federal governments during the past
10 decade, which has caused the loss of the local news
11 broadcasting, discouraging our own communities and all
12 our communities from other across Canada.
13 407 I read that wrong and it's important
14 and I'm going to reread it.
15 408 Everyone knows of the vast cutbacks
16 by the federal governments during the past decade which
17 has caused the loss of local news broadcasting,
18 disconnecting our own communities and all communities
19 from others across Canada. Old programs have been
20 replaced by ever-increasing repeat programming. Many
21 programs have been dropped at the height of their
22 popularity while many of the new shows do not capture
23 our interest or imagination. In the past the CBC has
24 endeavoured to educate and inform Canadians. Programs
25 like the Farm Forum contributed greatly in organizing
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1 our farmers, pulling them through The Depression.
2 409 I'm sad to say that I cannot see the
3 CBC in this role today with the forces that influence
4 it. Today we, as Canadians, expect our news broadcasts
5 and information programs to give us balanced
6 viewpoints. We want to hear the viewpoints of the
7 political party in power and the opposition parties,
8 depending on the issues. We want to hear reports from
9 the C.D. Howe and Fraser Institutes.
10 410 On the other hand, we expect to hear
11 how organizations like the Canadian Centre for Policy
12 Alternatives or the Council of Canadians stand on
13 issues.
14 411 Many businesses show interest in
15 commercialization of some of our prime time radio. The
16 advertising dollars will certainly negatively influence
17 the content of the programs. I am unabashedly a very
18 loyal CBC radio listener. When my piano tuner entered
19 my house a few years ago, he laughed with surprise to
20 hear my radio still on CBC two months into a strike.
21 It is my very best friend, with Terry MacLeod gently
22 awakening me each morning at six o'clock and
23 Marjorie Doyle tucking me into my bed each night.
24 412 Even with devastating cutbacks to
25 many of our local and national programs, not only have
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1 many survived but have vastly improved due to the
2 abundance of superb radio announcers, guests and very
3 intelligent talented people working behind the scenes.
4 413 My accolades go to Terry MacLeod,
5 Avril Benoit, Karen Tool-Mitchell (ph), Donald
6 Benam (ph), Lister Sinclair, Eleanor Wachtell, Jason
7 Moskovitch (ph), Bob MacDonald, Joey Taylor, Nora
8 Young, Rex Murphy, Mary-Lou Finlay, Marjorie Doyle,
9 Ian Brown, Jim Cochrane.
10 414 Never before in over 50 years of
11 devote listening have we ever had so many talented,
12 intelligent, conscientious, unbiased people working on
13 a radio station probably anywhere in the world. Before
14 we get too carried away, I wish to express a few of my
15 personal beefs.
16 415 I am an older single woman who rarely
17 goes out on Saturday night. What a void between eight
18 and ten. It is the only time all week I turn my radio
19 off. I'm sorry, but poor Danny Finkleman with his
20 music and views just doesn't stand up to the standard
21 that I expect from the CBC. The problem is there is no
22 alternative on FM or TV.
23 416 Michael Enright will never be able to
24 replace Peter Gzowski, with whom I have had a long
25 lovely relationship. Michael is an intelligent fluent
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1 person who is simply lacking in sensitivity towards
2 women, ethnics, youth, Canadians in general. Peter at
3 least related to all kinds of Canadians from coast to
4 coast to coast. Michael admits that every opportunity
5 he gets he heads to a ranch in Wyoming.
6 417 I believe Vickie Gaberal (ph) should
7 have remained on CBC radio. I believe the biggest
8 mistake made by the CBC was to cut The Food Show. I
9 really resent this personally as through ignorance I
10 didn't have nutritional information resulting in a
11 major operation and I see so many Canadians who haven't
12 a clue how to eat properly today.
13 418 Very rarely do I turn on my
14 television because I believe it is getting worse
15 yearly. When they cancel programs like Street Legal,
16 North of 60, Rita MacNeil and her wonderful guests, I
17 have lost interest. Hockey, which I used to enjoy, has
18 become far too violent. I wish the NFB films that they
19 used to play would resume.
20 419 I have an eclectic taste in music and
21 resent that so much jazz is being promoted. I wish
22 someone -- I don't know whether I should say this but
23 it's a pet peeve -- I wish someone would have the nerve
24 to tell Ken Finkleman that he is not, never was and
25 never will be funny. The news is too late,
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1 particularly the local news. I don't appreciate the
2 violent edge so prevalent in so many productions.
3 420 There are a few TV programs I do
4 appreciate. As a grandmother I get to watch small
5 children's shows. There were tremendous adjustments
6 when new technologies were developing, but CBC kids'
7 programs now compare very favourably with other
8 channels. Raccoons is the exception, because I sense
9 the program is deliberately being manipulated by values
10 I do not endorse, particularly with children.
11 421 I am disappointed when I have to go
12 out on Sunday nights because I enjoy the variety of
13 shows offered. Monday night, too, is a good evening
14 with Air Farce, This Hour Has 22 Minutes; and Life and
15 Times, David Suzuki, Ventures, Market Place, The Fifth
16 Estate are worth-watching programs.
17 422 In ending, I have some requests. The
18 haemorrhaging from cuts to the CBC must be terminated
19 and funding restored. It is time to reinvest first in
20 local programming, particularly for people who live in
21 areas in close proximity to the U.S. or for those who
22 have had no other means of obtaining local news. With
23 health care being the number one issue of concern with
24 Canadians, why isn't there a program on health
25 prevention? There should be one on food also.
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1 423 Since there are plans behind closed
2 doors to create a new position of CBC Vice-President
3 who would live in Ottawa and be responsible for news, I
4 am absolutely opposed to the federal government
5 interfering with news coverage. In a democratic
6 country, we need no body censoring our news. What ever
7 happened to freedom of speech?
8 424 Since I am happy with the CBC mandate
9 and as is it now stands, I do not care to have it
10 changed through privatization. I am here today because
11 I value our CBC and wish to defend the wonderful work
12 they do. We must fight to restore it to health, to
13 preserve its mandate and to ensure freedom of speech
14 for all.
15 425 I wish to thank the CRTC for this
16 opportunity of speaking to you today.
17 426 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
18 Ms Hewitt-Smith.
19 427 MS PINSKY: David Northcott.
20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
21 428 MR. NORTHCOTT: Thank you.
22 429 Yes, renew the licence; yes,
23 strengthen the licence; and, yes, use your influence to
24 strengthen CBC's licence.
25 430 Now, that's your scope of influence,
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1 and now the other piece.
2 431 At Winnipeg Harvest, it's a food bank
3 in Winnipeg, we see the distress of families and the
4 food bank experience growing because of decisions made
5 primarily on issues of economic reality and the demand
6 that the economic engine must be the generator of all
7 activity and people must fit those moulds.
8 432 We appreciate that CBC quants that.
9 We appreciate that the broadcasting community was able
10 to put its foot in the economic realities as well as
11 the social and cultural realities which don't enter the
12 economic engine and to tell the stories and reflect the
13 cultures of all sectors of our society. That's an
14 asset for all Canadians.
15 433 There are four sectors in our
16 society. There is the government sector, there is the
17 not-for-profit sector, there is the business and
18 organized labour sector, and the fourth sector of all
19 which critically depends on the CBC and the right to
20 access the CBC, that's neighbourhoods, neighbourhoods
21 where people live, decisions are made and folks who
22 contribute to many, many charities in Canada.
23 434 The CBC has an ability to put its
24 foot in many worlds, and please don't demand that it
25 put all its feet and all its financial eggs in the
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1 economic basket and the for-profit world. I think it
2 does itself a disservice by doing that.
3 435 The CBC is a distinctive and
4 continuous cultural link with the cultural hearts and
5 the mosaic called Canada. The CBC's model has been
6 known as a thinking person's media outlet for many,
7 many years with just cause. The CBC and its workforce
8 are a unique blend of for-profit commercial
9 broadcasting skills while at the same time providing
10 access for developing Canadian talent, unique
11 entertainment and programs that otherwise would not be
12 showcased in Canada.
13 436 There are five hits.
14 437 The first hit is a right to access to
15 information and data by all Canadians, regardless of
16 their income, regardless of their ability to purchase a
17 service, regardless of where they live in Canada.
18 438 The second piece, developing a
19 showcase in Canadian talent, is not a profitable
20 endeavour until they get popular and commercially
21 viable. At some point in time somebody has to do the
22 developing and CBC has a strong and rich tradition with
23 doing that.
24 439 Thirdly, the CBC is a safe place to
25 rethink issues of politics, economic activity,
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1 ecological activity and to rethink and channel and
2 engage people in a dialogue without worrying about
3 having the funders cut, although when you move into
4 government issues I'm sure we all have that risk. But
5 to be a safe place to rethink and challenge has got to
6 be the centrepiece of what CBC has been doing for many
7 years, and please encourage and use your licensing
8 skills to encourage that.
9 440 Fourthly, a skill and career
10 excellence and fair and just compensation for many men
11 and women in Canada who train themselves to be career
12 people in CBC. CBC has had the reputation for fairness
13 and caring and being able to nurture people with fair
14 dollars. We are not interested in the move to minimum
15 wage jobs, to term work and the private sector
16 commercial interests in broadcasting. We are
17 interested in people that can develop careers, pay
18 their taxes and have an industry standard broadcasting
19 that is world renowned. Please, let's not lose that.
20 441 Fifthly, thresholds. The whole
21 relationship that the CRTC can bring to the table is
22 your ability to do licensing and respect the thresholds
23 that are challenging the whole Canadian mosaic
24 including the social justice piece.
25 442 Food banks in Canada know full well
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1 that we can't eliminate the issues of child poverty or
2 hungry Canadians using food banks without strong
3 ethically funded government dollars. The challenge the
4 CRTC can bring is a licensing agreement that can force
5 government to their table ethically strong as well as
6 force CBC to the table with the same ethical challenges
7 to treat its people well.
8 443 Social justice, rethinking issues and
9 developing Canadian talent is not profitable work to
10 do. However, as a Canadian that struggles with that
11 torn safety net, we need a thinking, reflective voice
12 that asks us all tough questions and demands answers.
13 We must measure activity not just with economic dollars
14 but with people who make up the core fabric of Canada,
15 many of whom cannot afford or have the skills to
16 participate in the economic engine. To have a media
17 that is funded by our tax dollars allows us to expect
18 programs, questions, reflections for all of us, not
19 just those that can afford to buy the product.
20 444 We are delighted at Winnipeg Harvest
21 for their relationship with many, many talented people
22 and all the media outlets in Winnipeg, not just CBC.
23 We appreciate both the commercial and public
24 broadcasters. We appreciate the print and electronic
25 ability to tell the stories and ask the questions that
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1 affect our lives every day.
2 445 We also recognize and appreciate the
3 unique relationship that the public broadcasting
4 system, CBC, crosses, over many boundaries, crosses
5 over business and organized labour, crosses over
6 government, crosses over not-for-profit boundaries, as
7 well as being able to stir and influence
8 neighbourhoods. All four sectors CBC is able to step
9 into without fear of financial retribution without fear
10 of losing commercial sponsors.
11 446 Essentially, Canada should not just
12 be driven by economic realities that we are challenged
13 with to so many areas today. Decisions from the head,
14 heart and soul of Canada, and not just from the pocket
15 book, are hopefully going to make a culture that will
16 eliminate food banks.
17 447 Thank you.
18 --- Applause / Applaudissement
19 448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
20 Mr. Northcott.
21 449 MS PINSKY: Cheryl Ashton.
22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23 450 MS ASHTON: Thanks.
24 451 Good afternoon. My name is Cheryl
25 Ashton and I'm the Executive Director of the National
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1 Screen Institute Canada. NSI Canada is one of the four
2 federally recognized training institutions in Canada
3 which focuses exclusively on training writers,
4 producers and directors for the Canadian film and
5 television industry.
6 452 NSI Canada was established in
7 Edmonton, Alberta 13 years ago making it the oldest
8 film and television training institute in Canada.
9 NSI Canada has offices in Edmonton and more recently
10 Winnipeg. We are the only federally recognized film
11 and television training institute located in Western
12 Canada consequently giving us a very unique perspective
13 on the film and television industry in this country.
14 453 Our perspective is based on the
15 reality of the film and television writers, producers
16 and directors we train across the country. Unlike
17 their centrally located peers, our regional writers,
18 producers and directors find that without a voice or
19 presence in the larger centres they are at a clear
20 disadvantage in terms of having access to the centrally
21 located CBC's decision makers.
22 454 In this industry, in addition to what
23 you know, it is more important to adhere to the old
24 adage of who you know.
25 455 NSI Canada, over the last 13 years,
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1 has trained these regional independent film and
2 television writers, directors and producers in the same
3 fashion as their centrally located counterparts only to
4 discover the regional talent is held hostage by their
5 address. The final result is that we as Canadians lose
6 a very unique opportunity to view the images and hear
7 the stories from all regions of this country.
8 456 With this fact in mind, NSI Canada
9 strongly urges the CRTC to continue to support the CBC
10 licence, but also to encourage the CBC to decentralize
11 its decision-making process and encourage the
12 corporation to allow regional directors such as
13 Jane Chalmers (ph) and Joan Novak and their staff and
14 give them the opportunity to make informed, instructive
15 decisions about what their viewing audience wants to
16 see and what their independent production community is
17 able to produce.
18 457 Further, these dedicated
19 professionals should be given the opportunity to assist
20 in the development and broadcast licence
21 decision-making process on a national level.
22 458 Having said that, I can speak with
23 great appreciation of the support NSI Canada has
24 received from the CBC over the last 18 years and this
25 includes -- CBC has continually sponsored our Drama
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1 Prize Program which is an annual national competition
2 which chooses six teams of young film makers from
3 across the country, puts them through an intensive
4 18-month training process and results in their first
5 short film which is premiered at a festival that we
6 sponsor called Local Heroes International Spring
7 Festival.
8 459 CBC training and development has
9 allowed us to co-produce training workshops including
10 the National Writers Round Table, the Best of Input and
11 the Making It Happen seminars. The participation of
12 CBC personnel in the various NSI Canada juries and
13 workshops throughout the year is greatly appreciated.
14 These levels of participation and support play an
15 invaluable role in assisting us to be able to fulfil
16 our mandate.
17 460 One final point I would like to make
18 is the CBC, since its inception, has played an
19 invaluable role in building a strong and vibrant
20 national television industry. Over the last decade, we
21 in the film and television industry have witnessed a
22 tremendous growth in the strength and talent of our
23 regional producers, writers and directors.
24 461 In Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and
25 Manitoba huge increases in production volume, in
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1 production activity have occurred. If the CBC is to
2 continue to have a true national presence, then I
3 strongly urge the CRTC to encourage all of the
4 centrally located CBC management to travel to these
5 provinces on a regular basis in order to meet with the
6 independent production communities and have them
7 witness the reality of what is really happening.
8 462 In addition, these centrally located
9 managers should be encouraged to acknowledge not only
10 the expertise of the CBC's regional directors, but of
11 the staff that live and work and produce in the regions
12 because they are on the front line and they truly
13 understand what the committees want to see and what
14 they are able to produce.
15 463 Thanks.
16 464 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
17 Ms Ashton.
18 465 MS PINSKY: Carol Vivier.
19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
20 466 MS VIVIER: Good afternoon,
21 Commissioners and staff, ladies and gentlemen.
22 467 My name is Carol Vivier and I'm the
23 CEO of Manitoba Film & Sound.
24 468 Manitoba Film & Sound is the
25 provincial funding agency whose mandate is to develop
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1 and invest in the infrastructure and the promotion and
2 marketing of Manitoba's film, television and sound
3 recording industries. We are funded by the Department
4 of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
5 469 I'm here today to discuss issues
6 relating to the CRTC's Public Notice 1998-134 regarding
7 public consultations on the Canadian Broadcasting
8 Corporation.
9 470 First of all, I would like to thank
10 the Commission for undertaking these regional hearings.
11 I believe it is very important that Canadians from
12 across the country have the opportunity to discuss with
13 the Commission their views of the public broadcaster,
14 and I would like to state for the record that I
15 strongly support the CBC as a public broadcaster.
16 Although I have some concerns, as I will mention in a
17 moment, I do not hesitate to support the CBC as a much
18 needed cultural institution in our country.
19 471 In a public notice, the Commission
20 outlined four general questions as a guide for
21 participants. I would like to comment on these four
22 general areas, but not necessarily in the same order as
23 outlined by the Commission.
24 472 I would like to start with the last
25 question first:
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1 "Is there a special role for the
2 CBC and the presentation of
3 Canadian programming?"
4 (As read)
5 473 Absolutely. Yes. The CBC as our
6 public broadcaster has a special obligation to develop
7 and showcase talent from across Canada. The CBC has a
8 unique responsibility to participate in the development
9 of emerging Canadian talent including writers, actors,
10 directors and producers, and to provide opportunities
11 for this talent to grow and to gain stature within
12 Canada and outside of our borders.
13 474 The next question:
14 "Should the programming provided
15 by the CBC be different from
16 that provided by other
17 broadcasters?" (As read)
18 475 Again, absolutely, yes. Private
19 sector broadcasters are motivated by profits and the
20 CBC should not be forced to focus on competing for
21 ratings or advertising dollars against the private
22 sector. The CBC's role should continue to be to
23 provide Canadian audiences with the best of Canadian
24 programming made by Canadians.
25 476 Now we come to the important
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1 questions from the perspective of Manitoba Film &
2 Sound:
3 "How well does the CBC serve the
4 public on a regional as well as
5 a national level?" (As read)
6 477 I am speaking primarily to television
7 here and the Canadian content. For an independent I
8 would argue not very well. The Broadcasting Act states
9 that the CBC's programming should reflect Canada and
10 its regions to national and regional audiences while
11 serving the special needs of those regions. Yet in
12 Manitoba we have witnessed the downsizing of the CBC
13 regional office here and the demise of regional and
14 local productions.
15 478 As we presented to the CRTC and our
16 appearance at the television policy review hearings
17 last September, the CBC's track record in triggering
18 national productions in Western Canada and Manitoba in
19 particular has been less than stellar.
20 479 According to the Western Television
21 Production Study prepared for the Department of
22 Canadian Heritage last year, CBC's financing of Western
23 Canadian independent television production dropped
24 51 per cent between 1993-94 and 1997-98, while dropping
25 only 25 per cent of the total English language Canadian
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1 content independent production across the five years.
2 480 Quite simply, over the past five
3 years the CBC has significantly reduced their overall
4 involvement in the west. In Manitoba in 1997-98, the
5 CBC's total involvement in triggering any television
6 production from the Canadian Television Fund amounted
7 to one television licence fee of $24,000 for one
8 documentary project.
9 481 Regional production and the
10 development of Western Canadian stories for Canadian
11 television screens is an inherent public interest
12 objective of the Broadcasting Act. The CBC has a
13 responsibility to reflect the regions to the rest of
14 the country and in the case of providing broadcast
15 opportunities to the producers and other talent in
16 Manitoba, the CBC is not doing a very good job.
17 482 While the regional CBC office does
18 what it can, without adequate funding and air time,
19 dedicated air time, it's pretty difficult for them to
20 achieve very much here.
21 483 This is compounded for western
22 producers by the difficulty of gaining access to CBC
23 decision makers who are based predominantly in Toronto.
24 484 Given the CBC's mandate, these CBC
25 decision makers should be regularly travelling across
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1 the country meeting with producers and searching for
2 new stories and new talent to develop. How do they
3 know they are getting the best if they are not out
4 there actively looking for it.
5 485 Better yet would be to empower the
6 decision makers that earn the regional offices with
7 funding and the ability to engage product from their
8 own areas, hence, I think some decentralization.
9 486 So, in conclusion, to answer the
10 first question posed by the Commission, "How well does
11 the CBC fulfil its role as a national public
12 broadcaster", I would say in some instances the CBC
13 does admirably well with the resources that it has, but
14 in terms of serving the hopes and aspirations of
15 western and Manitoba producers, the CBC seems to have
16 abandoned its mandate.
17 487 Finally:
18 "Should the CBC fulfil its role
19 in a different manner in the
20 future?" (As read)
21 488 Yes. In the future the CBC's
22 programming should reflect contributions from across
23 the country by providing equal opportunities for all
24 Canadians to develop, produce and showcase their
25 stories in their own regions and to the rest of the
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1 country.
2 489 Thank you very much.
3 490 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
4 Ms Vivier.
5 491 MS VIVIER: I would just like to add
6 one note.
7 492 With Canadian programming, I think
8 the CBC has been caught in this raising of advertising
9 revenue. Germany, when it's content programming that
10 the German government provides for, their main measure
11 is audience. Is that programming reaching the German
12 audience? If it is, that is sufficient to reach an
13 objective.
14 493 I think in Canada, as regards the
15 CBC, that needs to be refocussed. I think if the CBC's
16 programming is reaching the Canadian audience in great
17 numbers, that is a terrific measure and I think they
18 are caught between trying to raise advertising dollars
19 and meet audience targets, and I think in some cases
20 it's not achievable.
21 494 Thank you.
22 495 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
23 496 MS PINSKY: You are welcome to remain
24 at the table if you wish, I think there is enough room,
25 or you can step down. I will call up three more
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1 presenters whose names I have registered here: Murray
2 Smith, Herbert Schulz and Kenneth Emberley.
3 497 If there is anybody else in the room
4 who would like to make a presentation, you can come up
5 to the table and make yourself known.
6 --- Short pause / Courte pause
7 498 MS PINSKY: Mr. Murray Smith.
8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
9 499 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon. I'm a
10 retired school teacher with, I would say, a lifelong
11 involvement with radio as a listener.
12 500 I asked myself my motivation for
13 coming and realized that I could be accused of
14 appearing out of self-interest in that it matters a
15 great deal to me that the radio in particular, but
16 television as well, provide the kinds of things that
17 I'm interested in.
18 501 Now, I know that self-interest has a
19 suspect sound to it and I myself often feel that when
20 the private broadcasters make appearances to your
21 Commission they do so out of self-interest, which
22 really means the growth and profitability of their
23 industry.
24 502 I find that by contrast, when I hear
25 the CBC arguing their case, they refer more often to
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1 service and education and national culture,
2 communication of the arts and I feel that as less the
3 aggrandizement of CBC than trying to live up to what is
4 in the Act. So, yes, I'm here because these things
5 have meant a lot to me over the years.
6 503 I found it very heartening listening
7 to the presentations this afternoon because they were
8 almost entirely positive, even where there were
9 criticisms expressed. As you just heard from
10 Ms Vivier, the basic support from the CBC was very
11 strong.
12 --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques
13 504 MR. SMITH: I didn't know I created
14 that much noise that easily.
15 505 What came through to me, then, was
16 the warmth and strength of support for this national
17 institution. I asked myself and I ask you now: Have
18 you ever heard support like that for any private
19 broadcaster? Have you ever heard that kind of loyalty
20 to any broadcasting station or broadcasting system?
21 506 As a youngster growing up in the
22 thirties, I was actually around at the time that radio
23 first became significant in Winnipeg life. I was aware
24 that there was a national institution launched, I was
25 also aware of local broadcasting stations. It never
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1 occurred to me that these were competitive with each
2 other, but in the 60 years since that time it is very
3 clear how their interests and their mandates have
4 diverged.
5 507 In the fifties, when I was living in
6 England, I encountered a man, Graham Spry (ph) who was
7 actually directly involved in the creation of the
8 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and I though at that
9 time, and I have thought often since, how lucky we were
10 that there were this handful of people who thought that
11 this was terribly important and who argued with
12 government and argued with the public that we needed a
13 public broadcaster. I thought it was very helpful that
14 Gordon Toombs reminded me, obviously he doesn't need to
15 remind you, of the clauses in the Act which express
16 even today the kind of vision which was there in the
17 thirties about what radio could do for this country in
18 terms of tying us together, in terms of fostering the
19 development of communities, you know, as isolated as
20 some of the western communities were.
21 508 Someone mentioned Farm Forum. I
22 don't think most people today have any notion of the
23 impact that that program had in the prairies.
24 509 In my thinking about the work of the
25 CBC, I tend to be more interested in radio because I
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1 find that the CBC radio is much more distinctive. I
2 would like to remind you that the cost of providing
3 public radio is very modest compared with the cost of
4 providing public television and that for the money
5 invested Canadians get a wonderful service.
6 510 In our home, my wife and I are both
7 radio listeners. Radios are on a good deal of the
8 time, although not as background. She listens only to
9 CBC Radio One because she is a talk person and she
10 really values all the programs that CBC offers. I
11 listen only to CBC Radio Two, which means that I listen
12 to music except where it is interrupted for the news.
13 511 To me there are two components of
14 CBC radio that are especially precious. One is the
15 kind of mature presentation of ideas exemplified by the
16 program with that name, and the other is the valuable
17 presentation of music. I think that we should remind
18 ourselves -- and perhaps I can take that liberty
19 because I haven't heard anyone saying it on behalf of
20 the organizations -- I think we should remind ourselves
21 that CBC radio have a very close connection with
22 several musical organizations in Winnipeg, the Manitoba
23 Chamber Orchestra, many of their performances are
24 broadcast by the CBC, the Virtuosi Concerts, all of
25 whose concerts are broadcast by CBC; the Winnipeg
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1 Symphony Orchestra whose New Music Festival is almost
2 entirely broadcast by the CBC, not only across the
3 country but internationally, and then many local
4 chamber groups and recitalists who get on the air.
5 512 Compared with that commitment to
6 local music making I don't think CBC television rates
7 as highly. It has done something for the ballet, but
8 it hasn't done much for the Winnipeg Symphony or any
9 other instrumental group.
10 513 I would remind people who weren't
11 around when these institutions started that the first
12 broadcasts on radio and indeed the first broadcasts on
13 television were almost always music. Even in the
14 development of the American networks, the first
15 programs that were transmitted nationally in the United
16 States were of serious music and popular music, but the
17 two in some sort of balance.
18 514 When I was 20 I had an opportunity to
19 live in Britain for three years so I had a very serious
20 exposure to BBC radio, not much to BBC television. BBC
21 radio was astonishing to me even though I had
22 appreciated radio as I had heard it in Winnipeg through
23 the CBC and through Sicyus (ph) Bay where they had a
24 good deal of music broadcast.
25 515 But living in Oxford I could tune in
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1 music for two or three hours or four or five hours a
2 day, I could pick and choose, I could hear what I
3 wanted and ignore what I didn't want. It was a musical
4 education without parallel and its a debt that I owe to
5 them and since to CBC, and I think that it is a debt
6 many people have and that many younger people have the
7 right to incur by getting their music through the
8 radio.
9 516 I have a couple of other comments
10 which are more random. One is that I think many of us
11 have become very hostile to advertising and I consider
12 it one of the many blessings of CBC radio that it is
13 not subjected to advertising.
14 517 When I was in Britain about 15 years
15 ago, I watched more television and I watched the BBC
16 which had no advertising. One example which I might
17 quote. I'm fond of watching track and field on
18 television, which covers it very well. I watched a
19 one-hour BBC program in which they reported on and
20 showed every event which took place during an entire
21 afternoon's competition. They managed to show you
22 every race and every jump. That's because: (a) there
23 was no advertising; (b) there were no lengthy
24 interviews; (c) there were no in-depth biographies,
25 there was no personal interest stuff. They actually
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1 showed you what happened.
2 518 On reflection, I was really amazed
3 what could be fitted into one hour. So when I returned
4 to Canada I watched a broadcast on an American network
5 of a similar event and in the course of an hour there
6 five events shown, not 35 but five because all the rest
7 of the time was advertising, commentary, interview,
8 background, human interest stuff. They were not
9 interested in showing you the track and field
10 competition. They were putting on a show.
11 519 I think that once in awhile we should
12 ask ourselves what commercial radio would be like
13 without advertising, what television of all kinds would
14 be like without advertising and ask whether we would
15 have accepted this if we had been given a choice
16 40 years ago.
17 520 I return to my basic point that I
18 think you have heard this afternoon: a level of
19 support and a level of loyalty for the kind of things
20 which CBC can do, an interest in enabling it to
21 continue fulfilling its mandate better than it has been
22 able to do with limited resources. It should reinforce
23 your understanding that there is a substantial number
24 of Manitobans who consider that the CBC is an important
25 part of their lives.
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1 521 Thank you.
2 522 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
3 Mr. Smith.
4 523 MS PINSKY: Mr. Herbert Schulz.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 524 MR. SCHULZ: Madam Commissioner, I
7 want to begin by commending you for being here, and
8 through you the CRTC.
9 525 I expect there will be those who will
10 feel that this is another one of those periodic reviews
11 of the CBC which is designed to reduce its prestige and
12 eventually to dispose of it as a public corporation.
13 But as far as I am concerned, any agency that is
14 publicly funded and that has as high a profile as the
15 CBC and that has the potential for doing good or bad
16 that the CBC has needs to periodically be reviewed.
17 526 Therefore, I am glad that you are
18 here and that I am one of those who is here to help
19 review it. In fact, one of the reasons that I have
20 always supported public corporations is because we can
21 periodically review them but we don't need to go -- you
22 know, if you have a private TV station and you don't
23 like what they are showing you are told "Well, turn the
24 channel", but if you turn the channel you get the same
25 junk. With the CBC we can sit at meetings like this
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1 and review it and try to get the kind of programs that
2 we would like to have.
3 527 Incidentally, I want to concur with
4 Murray Smith, that you are dealing here with the people
5 who have used CBC all their lives and who feel that it
6 is a part of their lives.
7 528 Now, I had intended to make a great
8 speech here for my edification as well as yours.
9 Unfortunately, well, it was all in my mind and then
10 Saturday morning I stopped at a book store and walked
11 in just to see what they had and the first book I
12 spotted was The Microphone Wars by everybody's
13 favourite news anchor Nolton Nash. So I made the
14 mistake of reading it and I discovered that all the
15 proposals that I had been intending to make here had
16 already been experimented with and most of them had
17 failed.
18 529 So I come here to give simply a very
19 general presentation with respect to a rather personal
20 view of the value of CBC.
21 530 A number of years ago my wife and I
22 drove to Florida and on the way back we could hardly
23 wait to get within reach of a Canadian radio
24 transmitter. My wife was playing with the radio dial
25 on the car and suddenly there it was, that distinctive
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1 CBC voice, no one that we knew but it was immediately
2 recognizable as a CBC voice. So we coined an
3 expression: Being Canadian is being able to live in
4 the land of CBC. It's something that we coined just
5 the two of us a long time ago and it's something that
6 we had never quite forgotten and every time we go
7 travelling we feel exactly the same way when we come
8 back.
9 531 I asked my wife one day: Well, what
10 is it that we find in the CBC which we don't find
11 anywhere else? She, being a woman of few words, said
12 "It has scope, it has substance and it has style."
13 532 When I asked for some elucidation,
14 she said "Well, it covers the world and when you have
15 heard a CBC newscast you feel that you have learned
16 something."
17 533 It has style, it has a distinctive
18 voice. You know immediately when you are listening to
19 a CBC newscaster, whether it is on the radio and you
20 know the name or not. It's not like these raucous
21 female voices that you hear so often, particularly in
22 the United States, that make your hair stand on end as
23 if the school teacher is scratching her fingernail on a
24 blackboard on a cold winter morning or that male voice
25 with the nasal whine. These are CBC voices. They
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1 sound like the voices of people who know what they are
2 talking about. They sound like the voices of people
3 that you can have some confidence in.
4 534 Since then we have done a
5 considerable amount of travelling, mostly in the United
6 States and mostly in the west and the midwest and the
7 southwest. We lived in Arizona for two years. We have
8 learned to know a lot of American people, and we have
9 learned to see them as very fine people. They are
10 kind, they are helpful, they are friendly almost to a
11 fault sometimes, but something is missing. These are
12 the people who believe that Rush Limbo (ph) is the
13 reincarnation of Jesus Christ. These are the people
14 who believe that President Clinton was a communist.
15 These are the people who seem to feel that if anyone
16 mentions merikeri (ph) he is a subversive.
17 535 I asked my wife one day: What is it
18 that makes these people -- I mean, they look the same
19 as we do, they speak the same language as we do, what
20 is it that makes them different? She of course gave me
21 the short answer: they have no CBC. And the more I
22 thought about it, the more I have been forced to the
23 conclusion that that does make a difference. We know
24 something.
25 536 When you speak to the people down
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1 there, particularly in the midwest and the southwest,
2 once you get beyond the borders of their state or often
3 beyond the borders of their municipality, they just
4 don't know. We have a picture of the world. We have
5 some idea of what is going on in the world and we get
6 that from CBC.
7 537 Now, the mandate of the CBC, part of
8 the mandate was to stimulate the intellect and to
9 create a self-image for ourselves and also to project
10 it. I think in that respect the CBC has probably been
11 more successful than it knows. It has in fact become
12 unique. But there is another part of the mandate and
13 that is to entertain. How do we go about doing that?
14 We can of course buy the entertainment, but then what
15 do we get?
16 538 Let me read something here. This is
17 a statement made by the United States Federal
18 Communications Ministers, Newton Monnin. I'm sure you
19 are familiar with the name. He said that American
20 television is a procession of game shows, violence,
21 audience participation shows, formula comedies about
22 totally unbelievable families, blood and thunder,
23 mayhem, violence, sadism, murder, western bad men,
24 western good men, private eyes, gangsters, more
25 violence, cartoons and endless commercials, many
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1 screaming, cajoling and offending and most of all
2 boredom. Now that was said about 35 years ago.
3 539 What has changed since? Well, there
4 has been a change. There are not -- well, there is the
5 same amount of dead bodies on American television on
6 the dramas but, you know, we used to be quite reticent
7 about watching those. We didn't know how fortunate we
8 were because now we are seeing a lot of live bodies and
9 they are almost always nude, and they are almost always
10 rolling around wrestling with each other on the bed or
11 on the floor, in the shower. You know, the hair on
12 some of those people. You know, if my body was that
13 hairy I wouldn't expose myself even in the bedroom with
14 the light off, and those are the women. You should see
15 the men -- well, maybe you shouldn't.
16 540 Then more recently there of course
17 has been that feeding frenzy, the morbid fascination
18 with OJ Simpson and his leading role as Mac the Knife,
19 and then there is Monika with her friendly President
20 with the priapic propensities, and that seems to be the
21 only things that we can see.
22 541 Now, when I watch American television
23 and when I watch the American newscasts, particularly
24 in the last couple of years, I can only be so happy
25 that when we came from Europe my parents brought me to
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1 live in Canada rather than the United States. Indeed,
2 to my wife and I, being Canadian is being able to live
3 in the land of CBC.
4 542 Nevertheless, you can't have a
5 network of radio and television without entertainment.
6 I mean, we can buy it easy enough or you can buy the
7 kind of programs that I have just described. In fact,
8 not only can we buy them we can hardly keep them out
9 unless we build a lead wall along the 49th Parallel
10 and -- well, we are not going to do that unless we can
11 justify it as a job creation program -- unless we do
12 that the American shows are here and they are very easy
13 to acquire.
14 543 The question is: Is that what we
15 want? Yet we have to have entertainment if we want to
16 have a mass audience for CBC. Now, we need programming
17 that includes drama, that includes entertainment.
18 544 Now, this is in Norton Nash's book:
19 "The one lesson clearly etched
20 over six decades of CBC history
21 is that programs are primary,
22 everything else is supportive
23 and secondary." (As read)
24 545 In other words, saving money is not
25 the great objective here. The great objective ought to
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1 be programming.
2 546 Then he goes on:
3 "The CBC could be the best
4 managed, most efficient, soundly
5 financed organization in the
6 country, but unless its programs
7 are exciting, enriching and
8 distinctive it won't be worth a
9 saucer of warm spit." (As read)
10 547 Nolton Nash does have a way with
11 words.
12 548 So if we need the programming and if
13 CBC is reluctant to go to commercial advertising for
14 fear that it will make it just like any other station,
15 and if the government is reluctant to fund, then what
16 do we do?
17 549 Several years ago the
18 Caplan-Sauvageau (ph) Commission did a study of CBC,
19 another of the many studies of CBC, and reported that
20 CBC news and current affairs is a great Canadian
21 success story, that there is a paucity of Canadian
22 drama. Only 2 per cent of the dramas seen on English
23 language -- I mark that word -- "English language"
24 television was Canadian produced.
25 550 Then the Commission went on to write
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1 this. Any change in this, the development of Canadian
2 drama will be costly, but, quote:
3 "...paying for the new system is
4 the easy part of the problem.
5 The more difficult question is
6 whether we have the will,
7 whether we care enough about the
8 role Canadian broadcasting plays
9 to do so." (As read)
10 551 Now, of course that is a problem.
11 But it can be done. We know it can be done because we
12 know of at least two groups in North America that have
13 done it and are doing it. One is the religious right
14 in the United States and the other is the separatists
15 in Quebec. They knew exactly what they want to do,
16 they have learned how to use the media to get it done.
17 They have an agenda, and they are prepared to pay the
18 cost to satisfy that agenda.
19 552 Perhaps the problem with the rest of
20 us is that we simply have no agenda.
21 553 I'm sorry. Am I going on too long?
22 Just one more thought.
23 554 In other words, if we want the
24 program, we are going to have to pay the cost.
25 555 Now, there are those who say, well,
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1 perhaps the CBC has fulfilled its mandate so let us
2 sell it and go to the private stations and besides,
3 then there would be no cost. You know, that is the
4 greatest self-delusion of all.
5 556 We have just had a situation, I'm
6 sure you have heard or read about it, where a couple of
7 years ago our government sold our publicly owned
8 telephone system and the argument was that it's costing
9 $90 million a year in interest charges and if we sell
10 it we won't have to pay that. Well, just last week we
11 discovered that we were going to have to pay
12 $90 million in shareholders dividends. So let's say
13 that the cost is the same, but there is a significant
14 difference: we lost the company.
15 557 We have exactly the same thing with
16 CBC. Sure we can get rid of it, but then we go to the
17 private stations and are the private station owners
18 philanthropists? No, they sell advertising, and they
19 advertise the cost of the advertising -- advertising
20 pay their costs. And who pays the cost of the
21 advertising? The people who buy the product from the
22 people who are doing the advertising. Who are these
23 people? They are exactly the same people as the
24 taxpayers.
25 558 So it doesn't really matter. We
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1 either take it out of the taxpayers' pocket or our
2 consumers' pocket. But the difference is that we will
3 have lost the system.
4 559 Thank you. Sorry to go on.
5 560 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
6 Mr. Schulz.
7 --- Applause / Applaudissement
8 561 MS PINSKY: Mr. Kenneth Emberley.
9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10 562 MR. EMBERLEY: Thank you.
11 563 I have just been so pleased, ladies
12 and gentlemen. I wrote my brief out "ladies and
13 gentlemen" hoping there would be at least one lady on
14 the CRTC, and I'm very pleased to see that there are
15 two because, now, officially, there are some people
16 that are saying ladies are just as smart and wise as
17 men. It's official. Judy Rebick (ph) told me so.
18 564 I'm so proud to be here and to hear
19 this and to hear the presentations this afternoon. I
20 thought of getting down on my hands and knees and
21 thanking you.
22 565 And thinking of all these passionate
23 wonderful people -- I don't know if you remember the
24 advanced technology that Justice Berger (ph) used that
25 broadcast all across Canada all his hearings, and in
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1 20 years of public hearings I have seen the system
2 perfected to the point where we meet in a small private
3 room with the door closed to hold a public hearing.
4 It's a fraud. It is a fraud.
5 566 You people I believe are very
6 passionately sincere and dedicated people, but you can
7 imagine the shame I feel, the deep shame. Every one of
8 these speeches could have been broadcast on cable
9 television in other provinces as well as here. Every
10 one of those things could have been put on a movie and
11 taken out to the 20 biggest towns in Winnipeg in
12 Manitoba, and I feel a deep sense of shame at the
13 failure of a public hearing that is held in a private
14 room with the door closed. How big an audience is
15 there here sharing in this besides the presenters?
16 Count them with one hand. Could you count them with
17 one hand?
18 567 Ladies and gentlemen, I weep, I weep
19 with the failure. But for 10 years I have been begging
20 for public hearings to be public. Can you imagine, you
21 dedicated people that want to save the CBC -- I believe
22 that with all my heart, you want to save the CBC, look
23 at the opportunity you had to create -- if ten or
24 20,000 people in Manitoba heard these presentations.
25 Please think about that.
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1 568 I love CBC. I know it's not perfect,
2 but, oh, I have a button on my television. It's an
3 advertising button. And I turn on the television to
4 Channel 9 whenever the advertising commercial comes on,
5 sometimes I forget for five minutes and I miss part of
6 the program, but I will not watch commercial
7 advertising because 90 per cent of commercial
8 advertising is like listening to a politician's speech,
9 and I shut off a politician's speech after the first
10 five lies, and I have never heard more than eight
11 minutes of any politician's speech, not in 10 years.
12 569 There has been so much wonderful
13 positive stuff today. Murray mentioned that. Such
14 positive stuff. I want to help what I believe -- help
15 you the best way I can by giving a slightly different
16 presentation, because I want to remind you what we are
17 dealing with, the reality, the hard-ball game.
18 570 Here is the loveliest book "No Car,
19 No Radio Nor Dicker (ph) Permit", the story about a
20 wonderful woman from our University of Manitoba spoke
21 at our Mount Dragon (ph) socialist book store and she
22 is talking about -- a whole book about the regulations
23 for women recipients of social welfare and social
24 assistance, and the spy network and the harassment and
25 the intimidation.
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1 571 You see, you wouldn't be aware as I
2 am that for 150 years we had men judges, men lawyers,
3 men policemen, men church ministers, men doctors.
4 Fifty years after we have banded to get the first women
5 United Church ministers and the first women lawyers
6 graduated. Fifty years later, we have heard the first
7 whisper of women's physical and sexual abuse and child
8 sexual and physical abuse.
9 572 Now, there is a theory that kings and
10 nobleman and billionaires and millionaires are almost
11 all men. There is a word "hierarchy", "patriarchy",
12 "bureaucracy." Those are things.
13 573 That system has been running our
14 world long enough that when I saw the second half of
15 episode of the movie Titanic, I fell off my chair
16 laughing and I realized the people that built the
17 Westray Mine, the people that run the Red Cross, the
18 people with Brian Tobin that put in all the Atlantic
19 fishing deep sea boats to fish all the salmon out of
20 the ocean, our whole country, most of the transnational
21 corporations are still running -- the people that built
22 and sailed the Titanic are still running everything in
23 our country.
24 574 All of the male hierarchy. There are
25 388 billionaires in the world and they have as much
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1 wealth as two billion people. The whole population of
2 China and India is equal to 10 bus loads of selfish,
3 greedy men. In North America it's worse. The head of
4 Microsoft, the President of Wal-Mart with 1,000
5 non-union shops, and one other man have as much wealth
6 as the 100 million poorest Americans.
7 575 Now, this is an official definition
8 of how democracy works. You could get a professor to
9 explain to you that this is caused by the laws that are
10 passed in the government, and Gary Filman (ph) passed
11 15 laws two years ago to prevent unions from having any
12 power.
13 576 We have a problem in our country, in
14 our world. The people, the people in the communities,
15 the people in the villages, mother nature, all the wild
16 creatures are all being destroyed. You just have to
17 ask the CBC's David Suzuki, and all the other
18 intellectuals. Our world is being self-destructed and
19 all the communities in all the world are being
20 self-destructed.
21 577 Did you know the first anthropology
22 textbook I read in 1972 said you cannot make money out
23 of a sustainable society. You have to destabilize it
24 to make exports and imports and then make profit. The
25 only emphasis on this nation for 15 years has been
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1 imports and exports and the destruction of every local
2 community. The end result is that we now have a
3 poverty rate equal to the USA.
4 578 I enclose for you a tiny excerpt from
5 Lorna Morrison's wonderful Senate Report on Poverty
6 made 10 years ago:
7 "In the 10 years the government
8 has worked frantic with every
9 effort in their hearts to
10 increase poverty to the fact
11 that now the minimum wage pays
12 half the value it did 10 years
13 ago." (As read)
14 579 People are on half pay, everybody in
15 the minimum wage. All the shopping centres, all the
16 small grocery stores, all the people that buy
17 commercial television.
18 580 The CBC is the thing that nurtures a
19 community, nurtures a nation, and our world of
20 communities and nations and self-sustaining has been
21 under assault on a scale that you can't believe.
22 581 I have included for you a manuscript
23 written by Alex Carrie (ph), I got it from Dr. Helen
24 Keldica (ph) in our Playhouse Theatre 10 years ago. I
25 distributed 196 copies of that manuscript across Canada
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1 and I handed one to Don Johnson 10 years ago and now he
2 is head of the OPEC in Europe and they are working to
3 set up free trade for the whole world.
4 582 This is the book Alex Carrie's widow
5 published and it detailed a 90-year effort of the
6 National Association of Manufacturers in the United
7 States to prevent democracy from happening, to assure
8 that the policies of the businessmen will always be the
9 policies acted on by government.
10 583 Now, you don't know about the
11 pressures for privatization, the pressures for -- oh,
12 yes, you must know, the overwhelming pressure for
13 privatizing, to deregulate and to sell the CBC. But
14 that will be selling the people of Canada and selling
15 the preacher that nurtures the diversity of Canada.
16 584 The United States has a unique
17 religious philosophy of individualism and a private
18 enterprise and private profit. This has been
19 indoctrinated. This and six other papers I include in
20 my files for you.
21 585 I will very brief. Just five minutes
22 more.
23 586 I give you a package of information
24 so that you can look at it at your leisure, because I
25 know you think this is trying to distract, but I wanted
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1 to beg you to show you these books. I want to get away
2 from the main part of my brief and just talk about the
3 heart of it, and these five books talk about the heart
4 of my brief.
5 587 The CBC is a foundation mark and a
6 key, a key basis for any democracy that's still left in
7 Canada. That's why.
8 588 David Suzuki is the second man I have
9 met in the last five years who told me personally that
10 the world systems of forests and soil and management
11 are gradually self-destructing and it will start to
12 show up within five years. But the same thing that is
13 destroying the forests and destroying the fisheries and
14 destroying the land, poisoning mother's milk in the
15 Antarctic, is the thing that's poisoning the minds of
16 people with commercial television. This nice gentleman
17 described the exquisite beauty of the United States'
18 commercial television, and the alternative is the CBC.
19 589 I just want to remind you how
20 important that is.
21 590 Here is another little book "The
22 Poverty of Affluence", an examination of the emptiness,
23 the emptiness of the heart and the souls of people in a
24 society where their whole society is talking about
25 selfishness and greed, as you mentioned, hate of your
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1 neighbours, hate of your strange neighbours, and the
2 CBC has been nurturing this nation.
3 591 I sat down with somebody the other
4 day and they just spent six years in the forests of
5 Burma fighting against a dictatorship. I had to answer
6 the lady from Indonesia who left the dictatorship in
7 Indonesia 20 years ago and now her dictator friend's
8 son is a friend of Jean Chrétien. Just a little tiny
9 story.
10 592 And the last radical --
11 593 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Emberley --
12 594 MR. EMBERLEY: My last comment.
13 595 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If you can
14 just summarize now. Thank you.
15 596 MR. EMBERLEY: Yes. My last
16 sentence.
17 597 This book is the story about the
18 radical university students that drove Ronald Reagan
19 crazy and changed Ronald Reagan into a fanatic. But
20 this book says that 90 per cent of the students that
21 were involved in the upsets in Berkeley, California
22 were students who had completed two or three and four
23 years of their studies, had come from all over the
24 United States to be in the most progressive university
25 in the whole of the United States and were the best
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1 students and the best intellectuals in the whole
2 student body, and they were the leaders of the riots
3 fighting for democracy. Incredible. Incredible. Like
4 some of the people that appear at your CRTC hearings.
5 598 We want to thank you for coming and
6 thank you for taking the time to listen to us. I beg
7 you to accept some documents which will give you, some
8 information to confirm, I hope, that you have a mandate
9 from God as well as from the government to look after
10 our CBC for the good of the Canadian people.
11 599 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Emberley, thank
12 you very much.
13 600 No problem with you providing us with
14 documents.
15 --- Applause / Applaudissement
16 601 MS PINSKY: Mr. Ed Bachewich, please.
17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18 602 MR. BACHEWICH: Yes. My name is
19 Ed Bachewich. I have been thinking about this
20 presentation that I keep listening on the CBC, but I
21 kept putting it off and kept putting it off. I decided
22 that I would attend to see what the other people were
23 talking about. Since there is a few moments left, I
24 would like to take that time.
25 603 Thank you very much for coming to
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1 Winnipeg and entertaining us.
2 604 I have had withdrawals for the last
3 two weeks. I had been trying to find some place to
4 listen to because right now the CBC is in a strike
5 position and with a lot of repeats. I really enjoy the
6 Vinyl Cafe and I don't mind if I listen to it 25 times
7 because I listen to it on Sunday and Saturday, even if
8 I hear it twice, and there are some that I did miss, so
9 I don't mind listening to a repeat the second time.
10 605 What I don't like listening to is a
11 commercial radio that they have every place else.
12 There is nothing out there. There is crap out there.
13 606 I turn on some stations and I get a
14 headache in about two minutes, and you know what kind
15 of stations I'm listening to at that time, some of
16 those rock stations. They do not cover local artists.
17 They do not cover Canadian artists.
18 607 I think what we should have here at
19 all these hearings is local artists, local musicians,
20 local authors appearing and asking the Commission to
21 support the CBC. These people would not get exposed in
22 the world if they did not have the CBC. Where would
23 the Crash Test Dummies be without the CBC? They would
24 still be playing some place in Ontario. These people
25 get exposed by the fantastic organization that we have
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1 across the provinces.
2 608 As Mr. Schulz mentioned in regards to
3 advertising, I pay for every one of those stations
4 on -- the commercial stations. I pay for every one. I
5 have phoned them several times and I have told them
6 every time you hear them say, "Well, let's dump the
7 CBC. It's costing us 10 cents a day." I don't care if
8 it costs me 10 cents a day. It is more likely costing
9 me more than 10 cents a day for all the advertising
10 that I pay for, as Mr. Schulz mentioned, I pay for
11 through buying products in the marketplace. That's
12 fine, I pay for that, and I would like them to realize
13 that I would like to pay for CBC through my tax.
14 609 What I think that we want to impress
15 on the Commission is that we need a policy in this
16 country for funding of the CBC, one that does not
17 just -- "Well, today I am not happy with Mr. Terry and
18 I will cut the CBC and I will cut the governor or I
19 will cut their funding because I don't like what Terry
20 said in B.C. because he might have been telling the
21 truth." I want this to be a separate private arm of
22 the government, that they cannot interfere at every
23 whim because they don't like what is going on.
24 610 One thing that I do regret is that we
25 do not have enough local programming. Local news. I'm
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1 talking about sports news activities. I have to say to
2 the CBC in the morning I have to turn off and turn to
3 1150 Steinbach so I can get news of the sports that are
4 happening in the community. There is no place else you
5 can get it, so I do turn to Steinbach to get the sports
6 news and activities of school sports, community sports,
7 et cetera. I would like to see more community
8 involvement, community news.
9 611 Somebody mentioned earlier about the
10 problems that their programs, music, theatre was not
11 getting on the air. That's not the fault of the CBC.
12 Don't blame the CBC for that. The CBC has been cut
13 back in funding left and right. The CBC used to attend
14 the Winnipeg Folk Festival regularly. They don't any
15 more because they have been cut back. They used to
16 attend other festivals, other activities in the
17 community with films, et cetera. They have been cut
18 back. They can't attend that as often.
19 612 It's not because the CBC doesn't want
20 to. It's because they can't.
21 613 I also regret the loss of some radio
22 personalities, but CRTC can't help with that. Some of
23 them die; some of them retire. I'm talking about
24 Max Ferguson, the gentleman we used to have on from
25 Toronto that just passed away, with his lovely record
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1 collection.
2 614 One place that I do get world news
3 and world information -- that's Clyde Gilmor -- world
4 news and world information and discussion about the
5 world news and world information from different
6 viewpoints is the CBC. That happens no place else.
7 615 I have two children and they have
8 been brought up on CBC, as I was brought up, living up
9 north and some places that was the only station you
10 could get, and they do listen to CBC, and they have an
11 eclectic taste of music. They still listen to their
12 rock music or whatever, but they have an eclectic taste
13 of music. That's only because of the CBC. That's the
14 only place you can get it.
15 616 We need the programs that the CBC
16 provides for intelligent discussion, Ideas, As It
17 Happens, I could go on. Those of you who are here know
18 all those programs. I listen to the CBC, oh, some
19 place at five o'clock in the morning until 10:00, 11:00
20 and then I go to sleep and get up at two o'clock and I
21 listen to the CBC because they provide some excellent,
22 excellent radio from across the ocean. Excellent.
23 617 Again, CBC provides the opportunity
24 for our artists, our musicians. They should be here.
25 Don't sell the CBC. Don't have them do the cutbacks on
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1 it. If anything, we should expand it. This is on CBC
2 radio.
3 618 Because of the style that I live, I
4 spend very little time on CBC television, but the
5 programs that I do watch are excellent. The programs I
6 have mentioned, Suzuki, and all of those programs about
7 Canada and what is happening in the world, those are
8 excellent programs. So I wouldn't want to see that
9 cut.
10 619 I mean, you can get X-Files, you can
11 get all the wrestling that you want every place else.
12 Let's not go that way. Let's provide more of the
13 Canadian programs, what's produced in Canada. Then
14 these people could put in their films, their movies,
15 their shows that they put together in Canada on the
16 CBC. That's what the CBC should be providing.
17 620 What they have to realize is that
18 they can't be everything to everybody. They have to
19 pick an audience. I know on Saturday now they have
20 gone to a new programming on the AM to try to bring the
21 younger people in. It's DNTO, Definitely Not The
22 Opera. I enjoy it, but sometimes I get kind of bored
23 of it, and thank goodness there is Radio Two.
24 621 So I will thank you for your time and
25 that's all I have to say.
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1 622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
2 Mr. Bachewich.
3 623 We now come to the end of the --
4 624 MR. EMBERLEY: Madam Chairman, may I
5 read Bob Clegg's (ph) one-page brief when you --
6 625 THE CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear you.
7 I'm sorry?
8 626 MR. EMBERLEY: May I read Bob Clegg's
9 one-page speech that I was assigned to read because he
10 cannot be here because of his bad voice? The lady at
11 the desk said that you would --
12 627 THE CHAIRPERSON: The problem is,
13 now, after we finish the presentations, the CBC and
14 individuals from CBC are entitled to provide us with
15 their comments. We are supposed to be finished at
16 five, so could you be very brief, Mr. Emberley, please.
17 628 MR. EMBERLEY: May I submit this in
18 writing?
19 629 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, surely. Yes.
20 No problem at all.
21 630 MR. EMBERLEY: Thank you.
22 631 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't want
23 to read it, then?
24 632 MR. EMBERLEY: No. I don't think
25 that's fair to you.
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1 633 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2 634 What I was proposing is we would
3 have, say, a break for 10-15 minutes and then we will
4 have these fine officials from CBC to provide us with
5 their response.
6 --- Short recess at 1651 / Courte suspension à 1651
7 --- Upon resuming at 1703 / Reprise à 1703
8 635 THE CHAIRPERSON: We now have someone
9 from the CBC to provide us with their reply.
10 Mr. John Bertrand.
11 636 MR. BERTRAND: Thank you very much,
12 Commissioner.
13 637 My name is John Bertrand. I'm the
14 Director of Radio for CBC Manitoba.
15 638 Commissioner Cram, on behalf of
16 everyone at CBC and CBC Manitoba, I want to thank you
17 for the opportunity to be part of these public
18 consultations because it is really very important. I
19 was sitting there frantically taking down notes and
20 listening to people. It is very important to be here,
21 to listen to people, to hear their concerns, their
22 interests.
23 639 Most of all, as I sat there, and I
24 think you could feel it throughout the room, as person
25 after person came up, their sense of passion, their
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1 passion about the CBC, the amount that they are engaged
2 in this process, and how much they care about the
3 future of the CBC, of radio, television, all of it. As
4 I say, I was struck. I kept writing down the word
5 "passion". People brought it up. The presenters
6 brought it up, and I was quite moved by it. You
7 couldn't help but be moved, I think, by people like
8 Ann Pedersen and Valerie Wadepool and Brian McLeod,
9 person after person. I think it was again very
10 passionate and very moving.
11 640 We will certainly endeavour to, in
12 writing, get back to all of the people who took the
13 time to present here today and talk more to them about
14 the things that they care about in terms of the CBC. I
15 do thank the people for taking time out of their busy
16 day to be a part of this and to speak to this very
17 important issue.
18 641 There is no doubt that today's
19 presentations have raised a lot of points that are
20 worth further discussion and we will be pleased to
21 follow up with this during the licence renewal
22 hearings.
23 642 As I say, we have numerous people --
24 I'm the spokesperson I guess for CBC, but we have
25 numerous people. You know that Jane Chalmers, my
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1 counterpart, the Regional Director of Television,
2 couldn't be here, she is in B.C. on an urgent family
3 matter, but regional television is represented here
4 today by Carl Karp. He is the Programming Director for
5 programming for CBC television in Manitoba and
6 Saskatchewan. We are represented by people from
7 Radio-Canada. René Fontaine is the Director of
8 Radio-Canada in the prairies; Lionel Bonneville is the
9 Director of Television for Radio-Canada throughout the
10 west. Again, people who are part of these hearings.
11 643 There has been some dancing about
12 because you know there are parallel hearings, but I
13 have to tell you that, as I say, the word "passion" and
14 the sense of commitment that we heard today was
15 extremely moving. Again, we thank you very much for
16 allowing us to be part of this process.
17 644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
18 Mr. Bertrand.
19 645 MR. BERTRAND: Thank you.
20 646 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now apparently the
21 room is being rearranged and we will reconvene at
22 six o'clock. Commissioner Wylie and myself will both
23 be here.
24 647 Thank you very much, everybody.
25 648 MS PINSKY: Actually -- sorry -- we
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1 are not going to be combining the rooms apparently --
2 649 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, we are not?
3 650 MS PINSKY: -- because it may take
4 too long, so if you wouldn't mind going into the next
5 room where we do have the translation services
6 available, that is where we will continue at
7 six o'clock.
8 --- Recess at 1706 / Suspension à 1706
9 --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1800
10 651 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, ladies
11 and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation
12 on the CBC.
13 652 Bonjour mesdames et messieurs.
14 Bienvenue à cette consultation publique.
15 653 My name is Barbara Cram and I am on
16 the CRTC. On my left is Madame Andrée Wylie, the
17 CRTC's Vice-Chair of Broadcasting.
18 654 Mon nom est Barbara Cram et à ma
19 gauche est Andrée Wylie. We are both on the CRTC.
20 655 We are here to gather your views and
21 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion,
22 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
23 its role in the coming years.
24 656 The CBC is a national public service,
25 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays
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1 an important role in the Canadian Broadcasting system.
2 Today many elements are constantly being added to the
3 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
4 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
5 new services.
6 657 In this context, we want to know what
7 are your needs and expectations as viewers and
8 listeners of the CBC.
9 658 Given that, it is very important that
10 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not
11 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
12 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this
13 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my
14 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
15 and meet with you to discuss those issues, and why we
16 are holding this series of regional consultations from
17 one end of the country to the other in 11 cities,
18 starting today until the 18th of March.
19 659 Ces consultations vous donnent
20 l'occasion de nous faire part de vos opinions sur le
21 rôle de Radio-Canada, le genre d'émissions qu'il vous
22 propose et l'orientation qu'il devrait se donner à
23 l'aube du nouveau millénaire -- je m'excuse -- aussi
24 bien la partie nationale que les parties régionales et
25 locales.
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1 660 Ces consultations se font dans
2 l'esprit d'établir avec vous un dialogue ouvert et
3 d'être à l'écoute de vos préoccupations. Tous vos
4 commentaires feront partie du dossier public et seront
5 ajoutés à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à
6 Hull le 25 mai prochain.
7 661 At the upcoming hearing in Hull on
8 May 25 the Commission will examine the CBC's
9 application for the renewal of its licences, including
10 radio, television and its specialty services Newsworld
11 and Réseau de l'information.
12 662 You can also take part in that public
13 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.
14 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
15 specific licence renewals being examined when you file
16 your comments.
17 663 Now I would like to come back to
18 today's consultations. Please allow me to introduce
19 the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today.
20 664 Rod Lahay is from our Broadcasting
21 Planning Services, Mr. Gary Krushen is the Director of
22 our Winnipeg Regional Office, and Carolyn Pinsky is our
23 Legal Advisor. Please feel free to call on them with
24 any questions you might have about the process today or
25 any other matter.
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1 665 So that you will all have the
2 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
3 presentations to 10 minutes, as these consultations are
4 a forum designed especially for you and we want to
5 listen to as many participants as possible. We will
6 not ask any questions unless we need clarification.
7 666 At the end of this session,
8 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
9 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
10 interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
11 667 Before we start, I would like to ask
12 our legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping
13 matters regarding the content of this consultation.
14 668 MS PINSKY: Just to explain a bit of
15 the process to the people who will be presenting today,
16 the Secretary will call approximately 10 presenters at
17 a time. When he does so, if you would step up and come
18 to the table. The Secretary will then, in turn, call
19 each presenter individually.
20 669 When you are called, please make sure
21 that your microphone is turned on so that the court
22 reporter can transcribe properly.
23 670 We have translation services
24 available today, and for those who are present but who
25 don't wish to make a presentation, we do have forms
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1 that you can fill out if you wish to leave some written
2 comments with the Commission, and they will be put on
3 the public file.
4 671 Thank you.
5 1805
6 672 MR. KRUSHEN: I would now like to
7 call the first group of presenters: Garnet Angeconeb,
8 Ross Madder, Dave Walley, Tirzah Sharpe, Tim Watts,
9 Rita Menzies, Edward Hiebert, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier
10 and Jeff Brennan. Would you please come forward.
11 --- Short pause / Courte pause
12 673 MR. KRUSHEN: Mr. Angeconeb, you can
13 commence when you are ready.
14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
15 674 MR. ANGECONEB: Thank you very much.
16 675 Members of the Canadian-Radio
17 Television and Telecommunications Commission, ladies
18 and gentlemen, my name is Garnet Angeconeb, I am a
19 First Nations person from Sioux Lookout in northwestern
20 Ontario. I am a member of the Lac Seul First Nation,
21 an aboriginal community near Sioux Lookout.
22 676 I appear before you today in my
23 capacity as Executive Director of Wawatay Native
24 Communication Society. I am honoured to make this
25 short presentation to the CRTC's public consultation on
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1 the CBC.
2 677 You may be wondering why a northern
3 Ontario-based entity is making its presentation here in
4 Manitoba. Well, for us living in Sioux Lookout,
5 Ontario it is so much easier to drive six hours to get
6 to Winnipeg than it is to drive 16 hours to get to
7 Sudbury, the next nearest location of these
8 consultation meetings. Besides, I like the snow here.
9 678 First let me talk about the
10 organization that I represent here today. Wawatay is a
11 First Nations communications organization which works
12 in northern Ontario serving an area commonly referred
13 to as the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation.
14 679 Within the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation, or
15 NAN, lies some 48 First Nation Cree and Ojibway
16 communities. The majority of these communities are
17 accessible only by air.
18 680 The NAN territory covers a huge tract
19 of land from the Manitoba border in the west to the
20 Quebec border in the east, and generally north of the
21 50th parallel. That area that I talk about is
22 approximately the size of France. The population of
23 these 48 communities vary in size from 100 to 1,700.
24 681 This year marks the 25th anniversary
25 of Wawatay. Since our humble beginnings publishing a
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1 newsletter and operating an HF radio system, Wawatay
2 has grown into a modern multi-media organization whose
3 services include radio, television and print. We
4 publish a trilingual publication called the Wawatay
5 News in the Ojibway, Cree and English languages.
6 682 Wawatay also broadcasts regional
7 native language television and radio programs to most
8 of the communities in NAN. The Wawatay Radio Network
9 is carried by ExpressVu through an arrangement good
10 working relationship with TVOntario. The Wawatay Radio
11 Network reaches 39 Nishnawbe-Aski Nation communities.
12 683 In regards to television, native
13 language programs are broadcast each Sunday by
14 accessing the Ontario Legislative Assembly channel
15 during its down time. Wawatay's native language
16 television programming is received throughout the NAN
17 communities, including through cable systems in the
18 Province of Ontario.
19 684 Wawatay has witnessed many
20 communication developments and other positive changes
21 in our part of the world over the last 25 years, from
22 using a hand-driven Gestetner ditto machine for
23 printing the Wawatay News, to using the Second World
24 War communications technology called high frequency
25 radios, to the introduction of computerized newspaper
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1 production and the introduction of basic telephone
2 services and from the development of community radio
3 stations to the development of First Nations regional
4 radio and television services and the limited
5 introduction of the Internet service in some
6 communities. Wawatay also watched the introduction of
7 television service to the remote north, starting with
8 television stations beamed by satellite from the U.S.
9 to the introduction of Canadian television services
10 such as the CBC and TVOntario.
11 685 Our mandate is to protect and enhance
12 indigenous languages and cultures of the Nishnawbe-Aski
13 Nation through the use of appropriate technology.
14 686 Part of our mandate is realized by
15 co-operating and working closely with governments and
16 other interested partners. For example, Wawatay has
17 worked closely with the federal Department of Canadian
18 Heritage under the Northern Native Broadcast Access
19 Program in the:
20 "... production and distribution
21 of radio and television
22 programming that meet the
23 cultural, linguistic and
24 information needs of Aboriginal
25 people."
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1 687 Over the years, Wawatay has worked
2 closely with many federal and provincial government
3 agencies and organizations such as Industry Canada, the
4 Ontario Legislative Assembly, TVOntario and the CBC.
5 688 Like the CBC, Wawatay has considered
6 its future position as a public broadcaster: What
7 impacts this has on the programming we produce, and on
8 the relationship we have with our audiences.
9 689 Wawatay has worked to meet its
10 service commitments within an environment of extreme
11 fiscal constraints and fast-paced technological change.
12 690 And, like the CBC, Wawatay has
13 explored, and continues to explore alternative revenue
14 sources with the aim of securing long-term
15 organizational stability.
16 691 I will now respond to the four sets
17 of questions that were asked of these consultation
18 hearings.
19 692 Since the 1974 announcement of the
20 Accelerated Coverage Plan to extend CBC radio and
21 television service to small unserved communities, many
22 of the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation communities have received
23 a patchwork of both CBC radio and television services.
24 Some communities do not receive CBC radio or
25 television. The patchwork of CBC television comes
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1 through various distribution systems, for example CBC
2 North via satellite, through microwave towers,
3 satellite and cable and individual receivers.
4 693 Under the 1974 ACP only those
5 communities with a population base of 500 people were
6 eligible to receive CBC radio and television services,
7 which left out the majority of our First Nations. For
8 example, on the western side of NAN this meant only a
9 handful of communities received CBC service: Big Trout
10 Lake, Fort Hope, Sandy Lake, Osnaburg and Pikangikum.
11 Although the intent of the ACP was good, it still did
12 not provide CBC radio and television services to most
13 NAN communities and, to a certain degree, some northern
14 isolated communities still do not receive basic
15 Canadian radio and television services, that is the
16 CBC.
17 694 Over the years, however, through
18 other satellite technologies, some smaller NAN
19 communities and households have managed to beam in some
20 kind of CBC television service.
21 695 Within NAN the CBC has not fully
22 provided its services, and therefore has not fulfilled
23 its role as a public broadcaster. The federal
24 government, together with the CBC, must ensure the
25 essential Canadian broadcast services of the CBC are
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1 received in every household of the Nishnawbe-Aski
2 Nation before the turn of the century.
3 696 Limited access to basic CBC service
4 in our communities means that our communities -- our
5 concerns, tragedies and celebrations -- are virtually
6 unknown to Canadians nationally and regionally.
7 697 A few years ago Wawatay carried the
8 CBC radio feed when the Wawatay Radio Network was not
9 on the air. This allowed those smaller communities to
10 receive CBC radio who would not have received it
11 otherwise. This is no longer the case, and so many of
12 the NAN communities do not receive CBC service of any
13 kind.
14 698 For those communities on the western
15 side of the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation that receive CBC
16 radio, Thunder Bay CBC provides a weekly one hour
17 aboriginal language show. This radio show, called
18 Anishinabie Wingwan, has been on the air since the
19 mid-1970s. The CBC used to carry a special budget for
20 this program. However, because of financial cuts,
21 Anishinabie Wingwan is now immersed into the main CBC
22 Thunder Bay operational budget and so the CBC does not
23 have a special budget for aboriginal radio programming,
24 as it did once. CBC Sudbury, which serves a
25 significant aboriginal population in northeastern
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1 Ontario, does not produce or broadcast any aboriginal
2 language programming. They should, and they must.
3 699 In regions where there is a
4 significant aboriginal population, the CBC must play a
5 special role to promote aboriginal language
6 programming, and also to strengthen its aboriginal
7 content and presence in regional English language
8 programming. This would not only strengthen its
9 programming, but would also complement existing
10 aboriginal programming. For example, the CBC Thunder
11 Bay region does not cover the same area as the Wawatay
12 Radio Network. The CBC Thunder Bay coverage area
13 includes aboriginal communities along the north shore
14 of Lake Superior, the Kenora and For Frances regions
15 and the southern parts of northwestern Ontario which
16 are not served by our Wawatay Radio Network.
17 700 CBC radio must also promote a
18 national and, wherever possible, a regional aboriginal
19 issues show. Perhaps it is time to reinstate Our
20 Native Land or replace it with something similar.
21 701 In conclusion, then, Wawatay treats
22 communications as a cultural industry. Aboriginal
23 access to communications media has given the Cree and
24 Ojibway people of northern Ontario new opportunities to
25 learn about each other, to participate economically,
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1 and to interact with a Canadian culture that surrounds,
2 yet rarely penetrates our daily lives.
3 702 As aboriginal people living in remote
4 northern Ontario, and indeed in remote Canada, the
5 social, cultural and geographic distances which have
6 for so long separated aboriginal and non-aboriginals
7 will only be lengthened if the CBC retreats from its
8 commitment to serve all Canadians.
9 703 The work of the CRTC is very
10 important. I know the work you are doing will allow
11 communications systems to bring people together, like
12 Canadians talking to Canadians. It is our view that
13 aboriginal and national broadcasters will contribute
14 most if we complement each others work and share our
15 national resources.
16 704 I thank you very much for listening
17 to me.
18 705 Meegwetch!
19 --- Applause / Applaudissement
20 706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
21 Mr. Angeconeb.
22 707 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Commissioner
23 Cram.
24 708 I would now like to call Mr. Ross
25 Madder. Is Mr. Madder in the room? I don't believe
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1 so. No.
2 1817
3 709 Then we will move on to Mr. Dave
4 Walley.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 710 MR. WALLEY: Hello. I think the CBC
7 is doing an absolutely abysmal job in the third area
8 that it has license to operate in.
9 711 Because I don't think anybody else in
10 this room is probably aware of this third area I would
11 like to start with what I am calling Information
12 Industry Bingo. It's a chart that along the top has
13 publishing, broadcasting and interacting. Along the
14 side, text, audio, video and data. I would like to
15 fill in and demonstrate just exactly what is missing
16 from this picture.
17 712 I would start with publishing text as
18 the oldest information industry. It started with
19 Guttenberg when they started to publish books.
20 713 Publishing audio you can think of as
21 records -- these days we would call them CDs. Records
22 is fine with me.
23 714 You can also publish video, you can
24 produce video tapes for rental or for sale. So I would
25 just call that videos. And nowadays you can publish
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1 data, which is the other use for CD-ROM. Retail
2 software is the only word I can come up with for it.
3 715 So you can fill in this entire column
4 of the four different types of data.
5 716 You can do a similar thing for
6 interactivity. If you want to interact with text, you
7 send mail. So the post office would fill in that
8 information industry square.
9 717 If you would like to interact with
10 audio, you use the telephone.
11 718 I'm going to skip over this square
12 for just one second.
13 719 If you take a look at broadcasting,
14 you can broadcast text, and it has actually been going
15 on for many decades. The newspaper is something closer
16 to broadcasting than if you were publishing books, but
17 it's not really all the way there, so I might put it
18 somewhere on the borderline. The difference between
19 publishing and broadcasting is that in broadcasting you
20 are trying to get information quickly, and you are
21 trying to get it out to as many people as you possibly
22 can, as cheaply as you possibly can, and newspapers go
23 a distance to doing that.
24 720 The first real text broadcasting,
25 though, occurred with the invention of the stock
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1 ticker, and it has been around for decades. It's maybe
2 not quite as used these days because you can use the
3 Internet now -- which is in another square -- but if I
4 can fill that in for now as the stock ticker machine.
5 721 If you look at broadcasting audio,
6 that would be radio, and is the subject of what we are
7 talking about today.
8 722 If you broadcast video you would call
9 that television.
10 723 Then I would like to return to this
11 square over here which is interactive video. It has
12 been talked about for many decades. It has been
13 variously called the videophone or teleconferencing,
14 and it is beginning to catch on now because of the
15 industry in this square, and that is the Internet.
16 724 It is important to note that data
17 includes all of these. If you can deal with data you
18 can also send video, audio or text, and so the
19 videophone is really contained within its neighbour,
20 the Internet. So the Internet is now starting to take
21 over that job.
22 725 But I did notice an ad on television
23 the other night for the videophone. It's making a big
24 comeback after a couple of decades of not being used.
25 I think it wasn't used because people don't want to
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1 answer the videophone on a bad hair day, but other than
2 that I think it's maybe starting to come into its own.
3 726 The interesting thing that I see here
4 is that there is a missing square. Data broadcasting.
5 I would challenge anybody to give me an example of data
6 broadcasting that is going on today. The closest that
7 you could come is an Internet technology called "Push",
8 and it, like the newspaper, sits on the line. It's not
9 true data broadcasting. The difference between
10 interactivity and broadcasting is interactivity is
11 two-way and broadcasting is one-way. Broadcasting to
12 one person costs the exact same amount as broadcasting
13 to a million people. So if you are a broadcaster, you
14 want as many people to tune in as possible.
15 727 "Push" gets halfway there. If you
16 can get a million times increase in efficiency with
17 data broadcasting, "Push" gives you about 1,000 times
18 increase in efficiency. A thousand times increase in
19 efficiency is not bad, but it's only part way there.
20 728 So the question is: Why is that
21 blank?
22 729 The second question, I guess, is:
23 What would you put in that square if you could? I can
24 think of a number of things that I would put in that
25 square. First of all, I would broadcast popular data
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1 about Canada to Canadians.
2 730 What is popular? Well, it's all the
3 stuff you can't broadcast on the Internet because it
4 bogs down when you get too many hits. If you have a
5 popular web site it will bankrupt you, because you
6 can't afford the servers. An example of this, the last
7 example I can think of, is the dancing baby. Whoever
8 invented that and put it on the Internet could not keep
9 up with demand. The Mars probe was another example.
10 NASA had to spend millions of dollars -- and in fact
11 did come up with several millions of dollars in the
12 course of a couple of days -- to buy enough computers
13 to satisfy, or try to satisfy the demand for pictures
14 from Mars, and they simply couldn't do it.
15 731 To data broadcast that information
16 would be simple. To send information to one person
17 would cost exactly the same amount to send it to a
18 million people if you broadcast it. The same way as
19 television. When you have a television program you
20 want as many people to tune in as possible because it
21 doesn't cost you anything if they do. When they turn
22 their TVs on or off, you don't notice. On the
23 Internet, when you get a hit you notice it. The
24 Internet is not free, it costs about 10 cents a hit
25 right now. So every time somebody looks at your web
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1 site, if you are trying to pay for it, it will cost you
2 10 cents every time they take a look.
3 732 So if you are going to have an
4 Internet web site, don't be too popular, because it
5 will sink you.
6 733 But what I would put on a broadcast
7 channel, if I could, I would put the news on. I would
8 try to stem the tide of kids who are tuning out of
9 television and I would broadcast a few games. If
10 possible, I would broadcast games made by Canadians. I
11 would broadcast business directories, which I think is
12 in the economic industry of every business in Canada
13 for people to get information about that business. I
14 would broadcast weather information, I would broadcast
15 satellite maps of the weather as it was happening. I
16 would broadcast job listings.
17 734 It's not going to happen until
18 somebody starts. You can't expect anybody to broadcast
19 anything as long as there are no receivers, and you
20 can't expect anybody to buy a receiver until something
21 is being broadcast. So nothing is going to happen
22 until somebody goes on air.
23 735 The CBC, interestingly enough, has a
24 licence to broadcast digital data, and has had a
25 licence since 1988 when the CRTC allowed them to use
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1 the vertical blanking interval of the television signal
2 and what is called the SCMO of FM radio, an FM radio
3 sideband. They have had that licence for over a decade
4 and have not seen fit to use it.
5 736 I can only guess at what the argument
6 is, but I think it goes something along the lines of:
7 Nobody has receivers so why would we broadcast. Of
8 course, the people who would maybe buy receivers aren't
9 going to buy one because nobody is broadcasting
10 anything.
11 737 They have a licence. They have a
12 licence to broadcast radio, they have a licence to
13 broadcast television, they have a licence to broadcast
14 data, and they have had that licence for over a decade.
15 They could be broadcasting educational data to schools
16 as an alternative to the Internet. Of course they
17 would not broadcast pornography, they would not
18 broadcast hate literature, you could choose the best of
19 the net and broadcast only it.
20 738 For less than $100 a school in the
21 north or in the south could connect up the entire
22 school network to this continuous stream of porn-free
23 data.
24 739 I think people are tearing their hair
25 out these days trying to figure out how to stop
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1 pornography from getting to the schools through the
2 Internet. I'm afraid the technical answer is: You
3 can't. If you make it more difficult for kids to get
4 pornography then the kids who know how to get around
5 all the locks and codes just become the most popular
6 kids in school, because they can break those codes and
7 they can get the pornography to any child who wants it.
8 740 I think this opens up legal liability
9 to the schools for providing pornography to children.
10 I think the solution is easy. Broadcast a porn-free
11 stream of data to the schools for $100 per school.
12 741 A northern school, if they can
13 receive CBC's signals, could also receive this stream
14 of data.
15 742 I think that you could also
16 anticipate that this system could be very helpful in
17 the Y2K crisis. I have heard lots about the Y2K in
18 relation to hydro, and I have heard it in relation to
19 the phone system and everything else, I haven't heard
20 anybody discuss it in terms of the Internet. But as a
21 computer-based system with computers of all makes and
22 models and no control whatsoever, I expect the Internet
23 is going to have its problems.
24 743 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me,
25 Mr. Walley.
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1 744 MR. WALLEY: Yes.
2 745 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you
3 summarize, please?
4 746 MR. WALLEY: Use it or lose it. I
5 think the CRTC should tell the CBC that if they have no
6 use for it they should lose the licence.
7 747 Thank you.
8 1830
9 748 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
10 Mr. Walley.
11 749 Could you call the next presenter.
12 750 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
13 751 I would now like to call Ms Tirzah
14 Sharpe.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 752 MS SHARPE: I called when I heard on
17 the radio that this was happening. I didn't really
18 expect to say anything and haven't anything and haven't
19 anything prepared. But the radio is very important to
20 me and I listen to CBC continuously.
21 753 The secondhand stores sell radios for
22 about $5.00 each, and I have one on each floor of my
23 house, including the laundry room.
24 754 I see that you have three questions
25 you would like to address, and so I hope I can say
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1 something relevant to some of them.
2 755 How well does the CBC serve the
3 public on a regional and a national basis?
4 756 All I can speak for is myself, and I
5 am a nurse. I have nothing to do with the
6 communications industry. I simply know what I expect
7 of the CBC and how disturbed I am when I hear stories
8 about how there are cutbacks and I lose some of the
9 programs that I like; and I hear stories that the
10 people in charge, the Board of Governors, are really
11 not into communications or into the fields that I am
12 interested in at all, and that really disturbs me.
13 757 I am in my 60s. I have listened to
14 the radio -- the CBC radio since out in the bush in the
15 '30s we heard Hitler and some really scratchy things
16 over the radio. Then through the '40s we had the
17 plays. I just have really good memories of radio and I
18 depend on it very much.
19 758 I associate heating hot water on the
20 wood stove and doing the laundry on Saturdays with
21 opera, which I would never otherwise have been
22 associated with at all.
23 759 My kids, when they were small in the
24 '60s, always listened -- always were accustomed to
25 having this on the radio, and now my grandkids ride
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1 with me and they know you do not touch the radio in the
2 car -- in grandma's car, because that is the CBC.
3 760 I have a network of friends. As we
4 grow older we stay in touch across the country. The
5 friend -- the best friend in Toronto, who is in a
6 wheelchair, can't get out much, we phone and we compare
7 notes, "Did you hear this on the CBC? Did you hear
8 that? What did you think of so and so?" The young
9 nephew in Surrey, B.C., I speak to him and we have a
10 joke about, you know, did he watch Céline Dion, or
11 whatever her name is, and it's a continuity for us.
12 761 I'm interested in Canada. I really
13 like Canada, the idea of Canada as we grew up with, and
14 I see this threatened in so many ways, and I see this
15 one link across the country which reminds me, and I
16 really fear to grow old without this. That may seem
17 really trivial to you, but I really depend on this
18 radio station. I like to think that it reaches all
19 parts of Canada.
20 762 In the '40s we lived out in the woods
21 and my mother was a school teacher and we would stay up
22 late -- I think it was Friday night, or was it Sunday
23 night -- and hear the Northern Messenger to the North.
24 It was broadcast -- the messages were broadcast from
25 Winnipeg to places right across the north, and we would
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1 look on the map and see where all these places were.
2 Later that was an interest for me, that I nursed in the
3 north, and now I'm still really interested in the
4 aboriginal parts of our country, and I like to think
5 that we could see their celebrations and their
6 tragedies and, you know, their goings on, and that they
7 could be part of our community as well.
8 763 I pay my taxes. I think this is a
9 really legitimate use for my taxes. I get really angry
10 when I see that I still pay taxes, as much as ever or
11 more, and the things that I value are going, and one of
12 them is the CBC. They say if you scratch a Winnipeger
13 you find a farmer, it's not so true now, but still
14 those farmers and those northern relatives are still
15 part of our history. I would like to see more farm
16 stuff on the radio.
17 764 Okay. I don't watch the television
18 very much. I watch the television, but the CBC is just
19 another channel. I don't watch very much sports, and I
20 wish they would get out of sports. I wish they would
21 have less American stuff and more Canadian. There's
22 lots of American stuff if I want to watch it.
23 765 I can't think what else I was going
24 to say. Is my time up?
25 766 I like the local news. I really
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1 admire how the radio is managing without the
2 technicians, who are on strike, and the other morning I
3 woke up early -- I get up at 5:30 and I put the radio
4 on and I like to hear the CBC. Anyway, in that early
5 morning spot there was somebody from Ontario, southern
6 Ontario. It made me realize how I really don't care
7 about how many fall suppers there are in Belleville,
8 you know, I want to hear about the fall suppers in
9 Hedingly and Amaranth, and I want to hear the local
10 news as well as the connections with the rest of the
11 country.
12 767 I have to say, if I am to tell about
13 what I expect from the CBC, or what I like about the
14 CBC, I like no advertising. I like one place where I
15 am not pressured to buy something --
16 --- Applause / Applaudissement
17 768 MS SHARPE: And I know our whole
18 country runs on advertising and marketing, okay, but it
19 is such a relief, and I think helps to keep us sane, to
20 have one place where there is no advertising, and to
21 have a rational viewpoint where we hear objective
22 viewpoints and in-depth reporting.
23 769 Sunday morning is still good, but it
24 used to be better when we had the reporters from around
25 the world. Some of us stay home from church in order
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1 to hear that. No kidding. You know, that's true.
2 Where you can hear what is really happening in Rwanda,
3 not just how many were killed or -- you know, that that
4 is really important.
5 770 I think that's all I have to say.
6 Thank you very much.
7 771 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
8 Ms Sharpe.
9 --- Applause / Applaudissement
10 772 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary?
11 1837
12 773 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
13 774 I would now like to call Ms Rita
14 Menzies.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 775 MS MENZIES: Members of the CRTC and
17 ladies and gentlemen, my name is Rita Menzies and I am
18 General Manager of the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra. I
19 am here on behalf of the orchestra to speak to the
20 significance of CBC radio in Canada.
21 776 We have an orchestra that receives
22 rave reviews and plays a significant role in the
23 cultural network here in Winnipeg. We have produced a
24 recording with the Swedish company Veiss (ph). These
25 recordings are distributed around the world.
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1 777 How has this come about? The CBC has
2 given us a national and an international platform. We
3 cannot afford to tour. Without the CBC there is no way
4 a Winnipeg orchestra, so far removed from other
5 centres, could take advantage of its excellence, that
6 is produce recordings and garner Juno nominations.
7 778 Furthermore, CBC brings to Winnipeg
8 music information from around the world. Hence, we do
9 better programming. I cannot imagine the musical life
10 in Winnipeg without the rich national and international
11 network and ancillary recording services provided by
12 the local presence of the CBC.
13 779 Without the CBC the Manitoba Chamber
14 Orchestra would not have produced all of its
15 recordings, would not be established nationally, and
16 probably would not be here 27 years after its
17 inception.
18 780 CBC radio does what no other radio
19 station in Canada does, that is, it records live
20 performances for subsequent broadcast, both regionally,
21 nationally and internationally.
22 781 What does this mean for Canadian solo
23 artists, for Canadian creators, Canadian orchestras and
24 Canadian audiences?
25 782 Number one: Many Canadian artists
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1 with international profiles owe their success to
2 initial exposure on CBC radio, and I give you as an
3 example people like Ben Heppner -- tenor Ben Heppner;
4 pianist John Kamua Parker (ph); pianist Angela Hewitt.
5 783 Number two: The CBC radio provides
6 additional income for musicians in Canadian orchestras.
7 784 Number three: CBC radio makes music
8 performed by Canadian artists available to Canadians of
9 all ages. It is not expensive. All you need to have
10 is a radio.
11 785 Number four: CBC radio presentations
12 reflect the diversity of how events are presented in
13 different parts of the country. It makes us aware of
14 our cultural diversity.
15 786 Number five: Regional programming
16 promotes local musicians and local venues when live
17 performances are broadcast across the country.
18 787 Number six: Live performances on CBC
19 radio ensure the future of Canadian classical
20 repertoire, as the CBC continues to commission new
21 works and as these and other new Canadian works are
22 performed. In this way composers are given an
23 opportunity to have their works heard on a national
24 basis, and the opportunity for, perhaps,
25 rebroadcasting.
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1 788 In conclusion, I would like to say
2 that CBC radio defines how we as Canadians see
3 ourselves and how we are seen by others. The CBC has
4 set high standards in all aspects of the industry, and
5 these are recognized all over the world.
6 789 Canadian culture is unique, as is our
7 Canadian judicial system, our political system, or even
8 our history. There is immense interest in Canadian
9 studies in the universities of other countries, hence
10 the expansion of Canadian studies faculties in so many
11 major American and European universities. Canadian
12 culture is a significant aspect of the programs in
13 these institutions, and CBC radio makes this culture
14 available to the world.
15 790 Thank you.
16 --- Applause / Applaudissement
17 791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
18 Ms Menzies.
19 1843
20 792 Mr. Secretary.
21 793 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
22 794 That completes the people who were in
23 the room when I called the first list. However, just
24 so I don't miss anyone, I would like to recall the
25 following names.
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1 795 If you are present in the room now,
2 please come up to the table.
3 796 Ross Madder, Tim Watts, Edward
4 Hiebert, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier and Jeff Brennan.
5 --- Short pause / Courte pause
6 797 MR. KRUSHEN: You may begin when you
7 are ready.
8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
9 798 MR. HIEBERT: My apologies. I have
10 just come from another meeting.
11 799 Let me begin by saying that I have a
12 very high value of what the CBC's services are.
13 Primarily the information sources are what I find of
14 the greatest importance, news, the special reports, The
15 Fifth Estate, et cetera. I find them of an extremely
16 high value in comparison to what the other media have
17 available for us.
18 800 So that as a service to Canadians on
19 the basis of what I understand why the CBC was created
20 beforehand -- or why the CBC was created as far as the
21 connecting link within Canada, I think it is a very
22 important institution.
23 801 I want to, however, bring forward, in
24 a sense, two or three concerns as to what I think is
25 limiting or devaluating the services of the CBC
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1 unnecessarily.
2 802 The issues would be, one is the
3 accountability, or the lack of it, especially if
4 listeners have concerns.
5 803 The second is insufficient access to
6 the information that the CBC is reporting on. There is
7 no way of connecting to it.
8 804 The other issue is somewhat related
9 to it. So I will start with the first one.
10 805 On the issue of accountability, I
11 have certainly taken forward, through an extensive
12 number of letters through different departments, and
13 one of them would have been the noon show over a number
14 of years ago, ended up also bringing it forward to the
15 ombudsman, and my perception and feeling in comparison
16 to a legal process, of which I have some -- I'm not a
17 lawyer, I am a layperson but I have some familiarity
18 having been before the Public Utilities Board and also
19 having gone through some courts, I have some
20 understanding of what court -- of what due process is,
21 and it's my perception that when people bring forward
22 complaints to the CBC they are more met with basically
23 the big black box having a certain amount of power and
24 exercising it inappropriately, and just simply because
25 they can control it.
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1 806 I think there needs to be more
2 pressures put on the CBC that they truly be
3 accountable, not only to Parliament but also to the
4 listeners, and to do that in a substantive way and not
5 just inform and claim that they are doing -- even with
6 the ombudsman. Because even in the process of going
7 through before the ombudsman I did not feel that I was
8 getting anything that I would approximate due process.
9 807 This is not the time to go through
10 the complete thing, but my perception was he went
11 through it and made some arbitrary and somewhat early
12 decisions which basically ended up dismissing it, and
13 without having really understood what the issues were.
14 808 I mean that would be the first part.
15 So that on the issues of accountability I think there
16 is a significant amount of ground that needs to be
17 looked at and that the CBC must be held more
18 accountable.
19 809 On the other aspect, and that is on
20 the aspect of information and the access to
21 information, I believe that on the one hand there is
22 excellent information that the CBC is providing with
23 regards to news and the other documentaries, et cetera.
24 However, if that information is only supposed to be an
25 aspect of consumption, that it's nice to hear, et
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1 cetera, that may be one thing. I think, though, as a
2 function of the CBC it must be much deeper than that.
3 It must be a way of providing us access to that
4 information.
5 810 I find more often than not -- let's
6 take the point with regards to commentary which is
7 presented every day during the work day at 8:15. It's
8 an excellent piece. It's only for a few minutes and it
9 provides a phenomenal kind of information, and yet if
10 you want to make contact with those people it is very
11 difficult unless you know who they are.
12 811 I have -- under some circumstances
13 they will pass on more information, but I mean I'm
14 giving you that as one specific example, that I think
15 the listeners ought to be able in a simple method, to
16 be able to contact the CBC and find the point of
17 contact how to get in touch with the organization, if
18 it is a particular organization. If it's an individual
19 who is not part of an organization, I think even there
20 a point of contact should be available if the CBC were
21 to at least take some necessary steps beforehand to see
22 whether or not the person would be open or not. I
23 mean, there are certain things such as the security of
24 the person, confidentiality, privacy and all these
25 issues. You don't want, just because they are being
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1 interviewed either for commentary or the news, et
2 cetera, that doesn't necessarily say that the Canadian
3 public should all have access to them. However, if, on
4 the other hand, the CBC were required to make a kind of
5 a list beforehand, is this person open to receiving
6 contact from the public, yes or no. If they are, then
7 I think if a person from the public wants to have
8 access to that person, the CBC should not be playing an
9 additional role as to whether or not that person should
10 have access.
11 812 I mean, that's my basic argument on
12 these. In pushing forward for this kind of legitimate
13 access, much like the questions of accountability, I do
14 not get good, straightforward answers. Often it's the
15 issue of, for example, the security of the person or
16 the privacy. Well, I have just given you an argument
17 how that issue, if it's really an issue, could be
18 resolved in the largest number of cases, particularly
19 if it is organizations. Because clearly organizations,
20 if they are being in the news or in some other part,
21 would only love further contact, I would imagine, under
22 some respects.
23 813 So I can't see why they would want to
24 refuse it, other than an issue of power, that they are
25 the only ones who can have the access and for the rest
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1 it's only consumption.
2 814 The second point that I have heard
3 from time to time is that even the CRTC, this allows
4 the CBC from doing so. I found that a really big
5 stretch. When Jim Byrd who was still with the CBC at
6 the time, was here in Winnipeg I brought forward some
7 of these suggestions to him and he thought they made an
8 awful lot of sense and was going to move forward on
9 them, but unfortunately he left shortly after. So that
10 was about the most positive step that I had seen
11 forward. They were going to move forward but then he
12 left. But he himself also said that -- I mean, it's a
13 complete crock that the CRTC would have denied the CBC
14 the opportunity of passing on information of that. I
15 mean, I can't really tell whether you have or not, but
16 I mean you would know. But it's these kind of excusive
17 kind of statements that I as one person am getting
18 where I do believe the CBC -- as I said before, it's a
19 fine institution, they have phenomenal information, but
20 as far as empowering the public to get access to that
21 information, or to hold the CBC accountable, on both
22 points I find the CBC far too weak and I would
23 encourage the CRTC to take stronger steps on that.
24 815 That would be my presentation. I
25 thank you for this opportunity and if there are any
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1 questions I would be happy to try to answer them, and
2 if not, that's --
3 816 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
4 Mr. Hiebert.
5 817 MR. HIEBERT: Thank you.
6 818 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.
7 819 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
8 820 I would now like to call the next
9 group of presenters. As I call your name, could you
10 please come up to the table.
11 821 Delaney Earthdancer, Bill Toews,
12 Janis Kaminsky, Maurice Strasfeld and Celine Papillon,
13 Laurie Ankenman, Phyllis Abbe and Mel Christian, Harold
14 Shuster and Al and Dave Mackling.
15 822 Delaney Earthdancer, please.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 823 MS EARTHDANCER: Thank you.
18 1851
19 824 I just want to say thank you to the
20 CRTC for giving me this opportunity to give my opinion
21 on CBC.
22 825 Also, I was under the impression that
23 I had 15 minutes and I have been editing like crazy, so
24 I hope I am down to 10 minutes, and I apologize if I am
25 not.
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1 826 The CBC is one of Canada's jewels. I
2 cannot imagine having the love of or pride in Canada
3 that I had without the CBC. Through CBC I learn not
4 only about my country, but about the people in this
5 country and the way they think, sing and live.
6 Canadians are an incredibly unique and diverse people,
7 and CBC is, to me, very much the voice of that
8 uniqueness.
9 827 I have been listening to CBC radio
10 for at least 20 years. I'm actually surprised to say
11 that, but it's true.
12 828 As a young mother I listened to
13 Morningside faithfully. I learned so much about Canada
14 and the people of my country during those years of
15 listening to Morningside. So much of what I value
16 about CBC was epitomized by Morningside, a smorgasbord
17 of Canadian and world literature, music, ideas, humour,
18 critical thought, theatre and opinions, while focusing
19 on the individual lives of Canadians spread throughout
20 this vast country.
21 829 There is no question in my mind that
22 CBC fulfils its role as the national public
23 broadcaster, and that the programming needs to be and
24 is, thankfully, different from that of other
25 broadcasters. It also needs to continue to support
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1 Canadian programming.
2 830 I am almost exclusively a CBC radio
3 listener. I do not watch much TV, so I do not feel I
4 can adequately comment on CBC TV. But what I have seen
5 on CBC TV echoes much of what CBC radio brings to my
6 life.
7 831 I rarely listen to other radio
8 stations because I'm not interested in hourly
9 regurgitation of the same music over and over,
10 accompanied by what is often inane disk jockey chatter.
11 Over the years my listening interest, while continuing
12 to include the morning show, have expanded to include
13 so much of both Radio One and Radio Two.
14 832 Years ago I barely had a sense of
15 Canada existing as a country or as Canadians as a
16 people, but my sense of the uniqueness of Canada and
17 the people in it and the way that we think has become
18 apparent to me by listening to the countless voices of
19 ordinary citizens across the country. Experts,
20 scholars and radicals, authors, playwrights, First
21 Nations people, truck drivers, doctors and housewives,
22 immigrants, farmers and the homeless, francophones,
23 feminists and lawyers.
24 833 I certainly hear comments that I
25 disagree with, yet time and time again I hear people
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1 who think in thoughtful, creative, open-minded and
2 inspiring ways. I hear discussion that gives me hope
3 for this country and that makes me proud to be a
4 Canadian.
5 834 We live in a country that, like any
6 family, has successes worthy of celebrating, failures
7 that are embarrassing, members who are loved or
8 ignored, and problems that seem insurmountable, whereas
9 many families will often bury concerns in a closet,
10 it's my belief that CBC fairly consistently airs issues
11 no matter how troubling.
12 835 It matters to me that I hear
13 discussions and songs and writing that exposes me to
14 Canadian cultures that I know little about.
15 836 It matters to me that I hear
16 intelligent open-minded discussion about serious issues
17 that are important to me. It seems to me that at CBC
18 there is a respect for the diversity of people and
19 opinions.
20 837 A few examples: I was raised on the
21 prairies with a grandfather who despised francophones
22 and a father who had no respect for native indians.
23 Their influence, plus the societal messages that
24 alienates western Canada from Quebec and many white
25 people from aboriginals certainly affected me. I
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1 wanted to learn about these cultures, but how does one
2 cross these bridges? I appreciate that CBC shows me
3 glimpses of these cultures and others, glimpses that
4 inspire in me compassion, curiosity and interest.
5 These glimpses tell me about the people in my country
6 who have been so hidden to me. I hear about them as
7 real people, not aliens I should avoid.
8 838 It matters to me that I hear about
9 the realities of prison life and the justice system as
10 seen by an ex-prison through the journalistic
11 explorations of Rosie Rowbotham.
12 839 It matters to me to hear intelligent
13 discussion about youth crime, just as our governments
14 are making the decision to get tough on youth.
15 840 It matters to me to hear discussion
16 about how poverty, lack of social services and the
17 negative influences of prisons have affects on these
18 people.
19 841 Concerning the discussion of issues
20 hidden in closets, I have been pleased and surprised by
21 the empathic and ongoing discussions about issues
22 surrounding women and about sexism, violence against
23 women and children, and feminism.
24 842 Next is the music. I love the music
25 I hear on CBC radio. I cannot get this variety of
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1 music anywhere else in the radio world. Where else can
2 I hear jazz, blues, classics, the summer folk
3 festivals, the new music festivals, world music? Where
4 else do I get exposure to Québecois musicians? Where
5 else do I get such a large amount of Canadian music?
6 Nowhere that I am aware of, except for the music store.
7 843 CBC offers me so much, interviews
8 with authors. I had never heard of Alice Munro until I
9 heard her on Morningside. Readings of new books and
10 short stories, plays aired. My son is an 18-year-old
11 playwright, and now even he has a chance to have his
12 recent play aired on CBC.
13 844 There are many, many musicians and
14 authors who had their first national exposure on CBC.
15 That matters. I could write a short personal story and
16 possibly have it aired on CBC.
17 845 On CBC I hear full length concerts
18 performed by Canadian symphony orchestras. Over the
19 past month and-a-half I have been to three performances
20 where CBC was recording for national broadcast, twice
21 at the Winnipeg New Music Festival, and once at Rumours
22 Comedy Club.
23 846 As well as Canadian musicians I value
24 hearing music from all over the globe.
25 847 With regards to regional programming,
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1 I do believe that CBC needs to provide good regional
2 programming. I remember a time not that long ago when
3 it was a waste of time listening to CBC to get local
4 news if there was a concern or a blizzard, for example.
5 That improved after the two horrible winters that we
6 had in '95-96 and '96-97. Now if the weather is poor I
7 can count on getting information on the roads or on
8 school closures through CBC.
9 848 It certainly also changed during the
10 flood. I think CBC at that time provided a great deal
11 of support. Although I think we need good regional
12 programming and that there is an adequate amount of
13 time set aside for it, I do not often listen to it.
14 I'm not really sure why, but I actually just don't find
15 it that interesting, and I don't have any answers for
16 that, on why.
17 849 My concerns for CBC have to do with
18 the budget cuts that have been taking place over the
19 past few years, heavy-handed government interventions
20 such as with Terry Milewski and, of course, the strike.
21 I have feared the budget cuts since they first began,
22 but I have not noticed too much change until this past
23 year. Personally, I am tired of governments and
24 organizations that have been so fixated on the
25 financial bottom line that they do not seem to consider
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1 long-term consequences or the lives of the people they
2 affect.
3 850 I am not advocating indiscriminate
4 spending, but there needs to be a balance achieved so
5 that one is not cutting one's own throat to achieve a
6 balanced budget.
7 851 The quality has been reduced and it
8 is irritating. I hear programs more than once, which I
9 don't mind occasionally, but now it happens often, and
10 that was before the struck.
11 852 This morning when Avril or Michael
12 talks to someone from Saskatchewan or Newfoundland,
13 there is now only one regional correspondent available
14 instead of two or three as it was the year before. I
15 can understand that it is less expensive to have one
16 person, but how can I feel I am getting an accurate
17 assessment of the provincial situation when I am
18 hearing only one person's view.
19 853 I felt considerable unease and anger
20 when Terry Milewski was suspended from work because of
21 his APEC investigation. I felt like I was living in
22 another country, one where a dictator rules. In my
23 view, the message was clear: Do not get too close to
24 government misdeeds or to the Prime Minister's office
25 in your investigations. The government funds the CBC
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1 and I do believe that the government should set the
2 standards at CBC based on the ethics of this country,
3 but I do not think the standards should ever include
4 selective reporting and ignoring injustices committed
5 by the government. If we heard of that happening in
6 another country, we would be appalled, and it is
7 appalling when it happens here.
8 854 With regards to the strike, it needs
9 to end. I find it somewhat difficult to be sympathetic
10 of striking workers when my family's income has been
11 cut by a third in the past four years due to
12 downsizing. Yet I value the CBC and I value the work
13 of the people on the front lines at CBC. Obviously
14 these people are skilled technicians considering the
15 reduced quality of programming since the strike began.
16 Now the journalists and hosts are set to strike. These
17 people are very good at what they do.
18 855 I want CBC back and working properly,
19 and I would like management, or whoever it is who is
20 holding the purse strings to get the strike settled.
21 The CBC is far too valuable to this country to lose.
22 856 Thank you for your time.
23 --- Applause / Applaudissement
24 857 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
25 Ms Earthdancer.
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1 858 Mr. Secretary.
2 859 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
3 860 I would now like to call Mr. Bill
4 Toews.
5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
6 861 MR. TOEWS: Thank you very much.
7 1901
8 862 I really appreciate having an
9 opportunity to put forward a few views about the CBC
10 here tonight.
11 863 I would just like to compliment the
12 previous presenter. She essentially carried the day in
13 terms of my own views. I could support everything that
14 she said.
15 864 There was a suggestion a few minutes
16 ago by another presenter that if you scratched a
17 farmer's back that one might pop up. Well, one has
18 just popped up. I happen to farm for a living, that is
19 my main occupation, and I would like to present perhaps
20 some views from that perspective, but I don't want to
21 be seen to be presenting it only from an agriculture or
22 farming point of view.
23 865 I happen to have, I guess, come in
24 contact with the CBC from a number of different angles,
25 one of them on the shortwave international service
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1 while we were on an international project. And even
2 though the programming obviously was quite different
3 than what I was used to here, it gave us a contact that
4 was very important for us at that particular time, and
5 I certainly appreciated even -- I guess doubly so, the
6 content of the programming on CBC radio as a result of
7 that.
8 866 The second time we went on another
9 assignment of that nature I made sure I took some of my
10 favourite CBC radio tapes along, just to make sure that
11 I didn't lose that sense of what it meant to be a
12 Canadian. Some of it was related to the music program,
13 some of it related to some of the talk programs and
14 some of to sort of the historical kinds of
15 documentaries.
16 867 I can recall how -- what a wonderful
17 feeling it was being able to walk the halls of
18 St. Thomas Church when they were doing a particularly
19 good series on the Bach Tricentenary, and you could
20 hear -- virtually hear Bach playing the organ while we
21 were out in the prairies of Kenya.
22 868 At any rate, that to me sort of was
23 the starting point of my sincere interest in ensuring
24 that the CBC continue on with the good work it was
25 doing then, and I guess I'm one of those who is also
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1 concerned about what is happening now.
2 869 This issue of funding, I think it's
3 time that we stopped apologizing for spending so-called
4 public money on -- and I think some people like to use
5 the term "subsidizing" broadcasting. As far as I am
6 concerned, this is a very important investment we are
7 making in the country, and currently we are not
8 investing enough in this broadcasting system to allow
9 it to do its job properly.
10 870 Those people who suggest that we need
11 to do everything on a private-funding basis just should
12 ask themselves whether or not they would prefer to be
13 taxed with a private tax or a public tax, because
14 essentially I am obligated to pay for all of the
15 broadcasting that is being done on the private stations
16 and yet I listen to none of it. But every time you go
17 to the shop to purchase anything you know that there is
18 a significant amount of that purchase price is designed
19 to support the private radio. I don't view that
20 particular type of tax any more favourably than I do
21 dipping into the public purse.
22 871 So I would like to put this notion
23 out that this is an investment, this is an investment
24 for Canadians, and that we should stop apologizing for
25 spending money on the public broadcasting system.
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1 872 From a programming point of view, I
2 guess I will separate out radio and television. Some
3 of what I'm -- you know, some of my thoughts have
4 already been put forward.
5 873 But you just look at, you know, the
6 fact that I think the CBC is the only outlet that
7 actually programs in the true sense of the word. You
8 talked about the kind of music programming that we are
9 aware of. I mean, to be able to listen to Holger
10 Petersen on Saturday night doing the blues show and
11 then being able to switch on Shelagh Rogers in the
12 mid-afternoon, or in the morning and listen to
13 Take-Five, you know, picking up Bill Richardson in the
14 afternoon, talking to people from across the country,
15 and the fact is that, you know, our family -- my family
16 members have had an opportunity to be heard across the
17 country because of the opportunity to participate in
18 some of those kinds of programs. It's invaluable.
19 874 As far as television is concerned, I
20 think the CBC has made significant strides in approving
21 the quality of prime time programming because of the
22 kinds of programs that are being aired, and I for one
23 am not interested, and I don't want to spend the extra
24 money on having access to a lot of the other specialty
25 channels, it's not that important, we don't spend that
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1 much time wanting to be entertained with television
2 sources, but the television that does appear on CBC is
3 well worth watching in many cases. I mean, we have
4 programs that are very useful from the point of view of
5 informing the public, whether it's the health show or
6 whether it's, you know, The Fifth Estate or Current
7 Affairs, the Undercurrents program and those kinds of
8 things. I mean, you just don't get that anywhere else.
9 And again, I don't want -- don't think we should be
10 apologizing for the fact that, you know, the public is
11 spending money on that kind of programming. Like I
12 say, it's an investment and it's very valuable.
13 875 I do have some concerns, and I know
14 it's an issue for the CBC, and that is to somehow find
15 the balance in terms of how journalists perform and how
16 they do their work. I don't have an answer for that,
17 but I know that one of the reasons that I do listen to
18 CBC radio and television is to get the best
19 journalistic integrity that's available. And I guess
20 we all have our own impression of what is being
21 truthful and what is not being truthful and we all have
22 our various complaints, but you won't find it any
23 better than the CBC, but that doesn't mean there aren't
24 some ways of -- or they may be some need to improve it.
25 876 I'm not too sure how the CBC can
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1 approach that. To maintain arms length with our
2 government as such, but still maintain the contact with
3 the people and be responsible to the people of this
4 country.
5 877 Finally, I guess, you know, your
6 discussion earlier about Morningside, and specifically
7 Peter Gzowski I guess, and I like to just relate to the
8 fact that the people on CBC radio are family. You
9 know, you become so well acquainted with them, and you
10 become so respectful of who they are and what they do,
11 I just think that I am a little bit concerned about
12 some of the recent programming changes that perhaps
13 some of the programming may be losing the heart with
14 the Canadian flag around it, and I guess that's what I
15 always thought was so important with someone like
16 Gzowski being able to do those programs, is the fact
17 that he truly represented the feelings of a broad range
18 of Canadians, but he didn't do it just from an
19 intellectual point of view, he did it from the heart,
20 and I guess some of us are missing some of that.
21 878 Just one final point, and it's a
22 minor point. I have found too that -- maybe it isn't
23 so minor.
24 879 I have found that being a farmer I of
25 course have an interest in particular of the noon hour
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1 farm broadcast, and I have always found that I have
2 been able to call on an issue and even provide
3 information, maybe provide some seed for a story that
4 they might want to do, and I have found them very open
5 to suggestions. In fact, when we had some recent
6 concerns about some changes in the program, the CBC
7 management was very willing to discuss this issue with
8 the farm policy organization that I belong to, and we
9 found them very open to ideas and to our suggestions
10 and so I have to compliment them on that as well.
11 880 So overall, I just -- I think the
12 programming is being hurt, and I think we somehow have
13 to restore funding so the CBC can do its job properly.
14 881 Thank you very much.
15 --- Applause / Applaudissement
16 882 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
17 Mr. Toews.
18 883 Mr. Secretary.
19 884 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
20 885 I would now like to call Ms Janis
21 Kaminsky. Is Ms Kaminsky not here?
22 886 MS KAMINSKY: Oh, very much here.
23 887 MR. KRUSHEN: I'm sorry.
24 888 MS KAMINSKY: You should be so lucky
25 that I'm not.
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1 --- Laughter / Rires
2 889 MR. KRUSHEN: My apologies. I just
3 didn't see you.
4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
5 890 MS KAMINSKY: No, it's okay. I was
6 leaning back, relaxing.
7 1912
8 891 The previous two speakers I think
9 stole part of my thunder, but that's all right, I will
10 reinforce it as firmly as I can.
11 892 I am not, unfortunately, bilingual,
12 so I can't comment on the French CBC, but I think
13 probably the general comments that I have will apply as
14 well as to the English.
15 893 I think it is absolutely essential
16 that we have a strong CBC that can provide the kind of
17 programming for which they have become so famous and
18 have always done so well. These have been mentioned,
19 there are documentaries, news broadcasts, both locally,
20 national and international, comedy and drama. Some of
21 the comedy I guess I don't quite connect with, but then
22 people don't connect with mine either, so it's a
23 two-way street.
24 894 The CBC, both radio and TV is the way
25 that Canadians can develop, present and preserve our
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1 culture and our characteristics. There is a lot of
2 talk these days about a lot of programs in that big,
3 wide wonderful 100 channel job that's coming out there.
4 They won't represent us. I would be very surprised if
5 they do. This is -- the CBC is ours, and it's the glue
6 that is going to hold this country together.
7 895 The international bureaus, which have
8 been cut, unfortunately, some of them, give us our own
9 information on world events in the countries that they
10 are occurring. This is a real necessity in this world
11 that is getting smaller and smaller, and we want trade
12 and we have relatives and friends all over the world.
13 We want to talk to these people. We want to know from
14 somebody of our own what's happening in those
15 countries.
16 896 The national reports will ensure that
17 all Canadians get the important information that
18 applies throughout Canada. Local productions cannot
19 only inform regional areas, but also can be exchanged
20 throughout Canada and teach us about other areas. We
21 should have been seeing Land and Sea in the prairies.
22 The Maritimes, the Atlantic provinces should have
23 probably been seeing some of Sandy Coleman's columns --
24 programs. Let's get to learn what's happening out
25 there. You know, the north always get forgotten, and
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1 we should know what is happening up in that part of it
2 as well.
3 897 I think all these things must be
4 done, and I think can only be done by a public
5 broadcaster, one for whom profit is not the motivation.
6 And I think this must also be done without political
7 interference. Public funding must not lead to
8 political control.
9 898 I have just been reading recently
10 that perhaps the next head of the CBC will be a Prime
11 Ministerial appointment, and if you will permit me to
12 be blunt, I think that is absolute stupidity. I'm
13 sorry, but that's how it is. That's from my point of
14 view.
15 899 I think the CBC must remain at arms
16 length from any government, I don't care whether it's
17 this one currently or one 20 years ago or the next one
18 down the road.
19 900 The attempts to -- I don't know
20 whether it was deliberate attempts to destroy the CBC
21 by cutting funding. That's more foolishness. We must,
22 I think -- and I hope the CRTC can put some baseball
23 bat clout behind this -- that we have to support this
24 institution that can provide the entertainment and the
25 information for Canadians, and that can also present us
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1 to the rest of the world. We want to hear from the
2 bureaus in other parts of the world. We want them to
3 know about us as well.
4 901 I think that good reporting like that
5 and good communication can only help us and the world
6 situation.
7 902 I have a few comments about the whole
8 business of televising professional sports. I don't
9 think we need so much emphasis on professional sports.
10 I know there is a great deal of talk about Hockey Night
11 In Canada and so on, but when we start getting two
12 hockey games back-to-back on a Saturday night, it's a
13 bit thick. So I really can't buy that.
14 903 In the spring -- and this was
15 somebody commented, and this is the freedom of this
16 country and talking on the CBC. Somebody commented
17 this morning about this business of professional sports
18 and how we get in the spring and in the fall -- the
19 spring with hockey that goes on until June and the fall
20 with baseball -- the whole CBC is disrupted. Programs
21 are shifted around, the news broadcasts are moved all
22 over the place. For what? You know, granted, yes,
23 there is an interest in professional sports, but I
24 happened to save from the 2nd of March in the Winnipeg
25 Free Press an article in the sports section that says
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1 "Americans don't love this game. In the arenas they
2 are watching TV. They are staying away in droves."
3 And we are putting the money out for two games
4 back-to-back on a Saturday night. I'm not so sure
5 that's good.
6 904 I think that we would get a lot more
7 viewers and a lot more interest if we started reporting
8 on some of the local kids that are in sports events.
9 Can you imagine how many families would be glued to the
10 TV set if they thought that their youngster or their
11 relative or their neighbour's kid was going to be on
12 TV? A lot more than the ones that are going to watch a
13 guy that's playing for one team today -- or a woman,
14 because the women are getting into now -- playing for a
15 team one time today and then tomorrow they are the
16 opposition. Have some of the local kids on, some of
17 the local sports.
18 905 I guess since the strike is on and we
19 have to sort of comment on this, I'm sorry that things
20 have been cut so much that this becomes a difficult
21 situation. I think that sometimes I have become
22 complacent about the CBC, but when the strike started
23 and I began to look for my good new programming and
24 informational programming that was on the CBC and it
25 wasn't there because it couldn't be there, I began to
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1 realize. It was a real eye-opener and I thought "I'm
2 missing something."
3 906 The only sort of minor advantage, I
4 suppose, is that a few programs that I had to miss for
5 other reasons are being rerun and I get a chance to see
6 them. But that's not really very helpful.
7 907 Advertising. I think keep CBC radio
8 free of advertising. As far as TV is concerned, if I
9 had my way -- well, if I had my way I guess there
10 wouldn't be any advertising, but I would limit it to
11 five minutes per hour, preferably at the beginning and
12 at the end of the program so that you don't get into
13 all this stuff and then find it's all chopped up.
14 908 This probably will need more public
15 funding if the CBC relies on advertising funding. Well
16 then, okay, that's fine with me. If we have to put in
17 some more money and replace what has been cut and
18 increase the amount to cover the costs of future good
19 programming, then let's have it.
20 909 We need the CBC as a public
21 broadcaster, independent of political pressure to
22 represent Canadians.
23 910 Thank you.
24 --- Applause / Applaudissement
25 911 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
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1 Ms Kaminsky.
2 912 We will be taking a short break so
3 you can walk around and get out of those chairs. I
4 have about 26 minutes after. If we came back here
5 about 20 to 7:00 -- 20 to 8:00, I'm sorry.
6 --- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1922
7 --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1940
8 913 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If we can
9 all reassemble. Thank you.
10 914 Mr. Secretary.
11 915 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
12 916 We are making a slight change to our
13 schedule.
14 917 At this time I would like to call
15 Ms Maxine Hasselriis.
16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17 918 MS HASSELRIIS: Thank you.
18 1942
19 919 Ladies and gentlemen, first I must
20 admit I rarely watch any television except news
21 broadcasts or news-related shows.
22 920 Second, for years I have watched
23 CBC TV news shows almost exclusively. I wish to
24 address just one area of CBC broadcasting, its news
25 shows.
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1 921 There is a tremendous difference
2 between CBC news shows and those of CTV, Global and
3 MTN. The last three would be better described as
4 entertainment. They give glib, superficial coverage to
5 news events. They react to events. As well as
6 reacting, the CBC initiates stories. It does
7 investigative reporting and holds to the fire the feet
8 of many newsmakers. I feel involved when I watch the
9 news related by the CBC. I feel like a bystander with
10 a short attention span when I watch the newscasts of
11 other stations.
12 922 We live in an age in which political
13 groups and businesses have learned to manipulate the
14 news. They carefully prepare promotional packages for
15 the media which appear to be news releases but are
16 actually disguised advertising. It is easy and cheap
17 for broadcasters to use this material. It seems to be
18 only the CBC which has the staff and equipment to
19 prepare unbiased material which doesn't use the
20 self-serving material.
21 923 There is an audience for the other
22 stations, however if the CBC news shows disappear those
23 other stations are not satisfactory alternatives for
24 the CBC audience. The amount of regional news on CBC
25 is shrinking, and I fear that not too many years into
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1 the millennium it will have disappeared. At the
2 convenient hour of 10:30 p.m. on weekdays and over the
3 weekends there are no regional CBC TV newscasts. One
4 can turn to the other stations, but they rarely address
5 regional news, just that of the immediate city area,
6 and that given in headline style interspersed with many
7 temperatures, long lists of sports scores and
8 infomercials.
9 924 That regional CBC TV newscasts
10 completely disappear for two days each week is
11 ridiculous if one remembers the CBC is the public
12 broadcaster. For almost one-third of the week one
13 cannot access regional CBC TV newscasts. The Canadian
14 public is still out there and news happens right
15 through the weekend. It seems to me the most important
16 mandate of the public broadcaster is to keep Canadians
17 well informed of regional and national events on a
18 timely basis.
19 925 An excellent example of the lack of
20 timely regional news came last November. Winnipeg
21 hosted the Grey Cup game and its pre-game festivities.
22 The Grey Cup game is a national celebration. On the
23 Friday evening there was a spectacular successful Grey
24 Cup parade. It started immediately after the regional
25 news and was not televised, either regionally or
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1 nationally. Brief coverage of the parade was given on
2 the Saturday afternoon CBC National News. By the
3 following Monday evening, 72 hours after the previous
4 regional CBC newscast, both the parade and game news
5 were stale and not included in the regional news TV
6 show.
7 926 In essence, in Winnipeg we have lost
8 regional CBC TV late-night news. The show, recorded
9 earlier in the evening, airs so late as to be
10 accessible only to insomniacs. The CBC National News
11 is repeated in a time slot which should be available
12 for regional news. We watch The National from 10:00 to
13 11:00 each evening, and then if we want regional news
14 we have to wait until The National repeat ends. We
15 don't wait, we just turn off the set.
16 927 I have just returned from a two-month
17 stay in the U.S., and as a news junkie I was in seventh
18 heaven. As Canada's national broadcaster cuts back the
19 time it gives to newscast, the U.S. stations are
20 increasing it. Every day of the week one could easily
21 learn what was happening regionally and nationally as
22 each station had many regular newscasts. Also, each
23 station seemed to be prepared to cover a story live as
24 it happened, interrupting regular programming.
25 928 I also noticed the co-ordination of
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1 regional and national news shows so that one moved
2 effortlessly from local newscasts into national
3 newscasts and then back into local news.
4 929 That U.S. stations have so many news
5 shows indicates that news shows are both popular and
6 profitable. As we enter the millennium I would like to
7 look forward to more CBC regional news on TV at more
8 appropriate times.
9 930 Thank you.
10 --- Applause / Applaudissement
11 931 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
12 Ms Hasselriis.
13 932 Mr. Secretary.
14 933 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 934 At this point I would like to call
16 Mr. Maurice Strasfeld and Celine Papillon.
17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18 935 MR. STRASFELD: Thank you.
19 1945
20 936 I'm going to speak on behalf of my
21 wife and I.
22 937 Before I start, I can't say enough
23 good things about the CBC and I am barely going to
24 touch on the many different aspects of the CBC. The
25 previous speaker speaking about news, this is something
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1 we didn't address at all, but I support her entirely.
2 938 How well does the CBC fulfil it's
3 role as a national public broadcaster? Should this
4 change in the future?
5 939 The CBC fulfils its role as national
6 broadcaster very well for the time being. The endemic
7 cuts and the choosing of politically appointed heads of
8 the CBC to us undermines it. It's longstanding culture
9 of vision and excellence sustains it. There is,
10 however, a limit to how much or how many insults the
11 organism can withstand with impunity. Canadians will
12 be the losers.
13 940 Incipient in the dynamics of
14 employment today is the forced relocation of families.
15 This has given us fractured families where children no
16 longer benefit from the proximity and the wisdom and
17 experience of their elders. Enculteration, sense of
18 history, internalizing the common cord that makes us
19 Canadian, will only happen if we have strong cultural
20 and information institutions.
21 941 Canadian culture is a woven tapestry.
22 CBC, Newsworld, Radio-Canada and RDI provide the
23 warp (ph) which stretches from sea-to-sea. The local
24 programming, along with the national programming,
25 contribute the weft (ph). CBC Radio-Canada is the only
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1 organism that does it right. It is not loud -- the
2 loud, aggressive pseudo-American in-your-face brand of
3 programming. It's more communication than commercial
4 propaganda with all its implications.
5 942 CBC speaks to our minds and our
6 hearts. It doesn't have the voices that attack as
7 commercial ratio does. It's not in your mind -- it's
8 not in your face, but in your mind.
9 943 Radio programs such as Quirks &
10 Quarks, Basic Black, DNTO, This Morning, A Propos, As
11 It Happens; TV shows such as Witness, The Fifth Estate,
12 The Nature of Things, 22 Minutes, and the list just
13 goes on and on. This CBC programming addresses a
14 community and assumes that there is intelligent life
15 out here. There is a coherence to the daily offerings.
16 944 Although we have noticed growing
17 strain as local infrastructure and personnel have
18 diminished, here are a few examples of how CBC
19 Radio-Canada serves us at both regional and national
20 levels.
21 945 CBC has province-wide daily call-in
22 shows. Whenever we have needed a moderator for public
23 forums and public information meetings, our local CBC
24 radio personalities have unselfishly and willingly
25 accepted our requests for their expertise. They have
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1 shown themselves to be well-read and prepared and have
2 enhanced our meetings.
3 946 My wife is a Québecoise, and because
4 of my job she bemoans the fact that we cannot live in
5 Quebec. RDI and Radio-Canada have helped connect her
6 not only to the home province, but have opened up the
7 rest of Canada's French fact. Who knew that there was
8 a vibrant French community in B.C.? My wife, as a past
9 rabble-rouser and rattler of cages in the education
10 field has had occasion to be on CBC radio and
11 television, both in English and French.
12 947 One morning her niece in Quebec City
13 heard an interview with her on the CBC National Radio
14 News. That same morning her sister heard a letter read
15 by Peter Gzowski. At about the same time, her parents
16 saw her interviewed on RDI. The point here is that
17 this is the medium of listening and viewing choice for
18 our family in Quebec, and it's just by chance, or habit
19 of viewing and listening, that her family saw and heard
20 her. What other organism is there in Canada that could
21 bring families so tangibly close? We can say the same
22 thing about Cross Country Checkup with Rex Murphy.
23 948 The floods, the ice storms, these
24 have all become real to us in large part due to the
25 CBC.
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1 949 Should the programming provided by
2 the CBC be different from that provided by other
3 broadcasters? Of course it should. The CBC should
4 educate. We can't abandon the radio and television
5 airwaves to purveyors of mindless pap. There is no
6 reason we cannot raise the lowest common denominator to
7 a higher level rather than allowing the dumbing down of
8 society.
9 950 The CBC is our last line of defence
10 from the Huns and the Visigoths, the barbarians at the
11 gate. One of the great tragedies in Canada today is
12 how we have neglected to teach our children Canadian
13 history. There is no common curriculum in Canada. For
14 math, science or language arts this poses a niggling
15 problem. For history it becomes a crime. Not only
16 have we robbed our children of this right, this
17 heritage, but we have no way of helping our immigrant
18 children to buy into this common cord we should be
19 sharing with them. How can we invite them to our table
20 when we have nothing to offer.
21 951 Amazing as it may seem, our only
22 common articulations of history and purpose reside in
23 this public national broadcaster, from wonderfully
24 produced Quebec series such as Blanche, Les filles de
25 Caleb, Marguerite Vaillant, to the English series Black
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1 Harbour, North of 60, The Beachcombers we start to see
2 and understand our culture and history. Our stories
3 are stories of substance rather than flash. They do
4 not sizzle, they resonate, nurture and strengthen.
5 952 What special role should the CBC play
6 in the presentation of Canadian programming? Well, we
7 would love to see a cross-over of productions.
8 Marguerite Vaillant was a wonderful French series --
9 which, as far as I know, has not aired in English --
10 with the parts of the English soldiers played and
11 spoken by English actors.
12 953 Lance et compte -- He Shoots, He
13 Scores -- was done in both languages. North of 60 has
14 been dubbed into French. We love to see series done in
15 a bilingual fashion with the French speaking French and
16 the English speaking English, and subtitles could be
17 included for those who are not bilingual.
18 954 A series done in one language should
19 have a chance to air in the other language. We need to
20 see and hear stories, music and art from all parts of
21 the country.
22 955 My main concern with the CBC is the
23 funding cuts. It's just not what it was. Even so,
24 they are doing amazing things with what little they
25 have.
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1 956 Thank you.
2 957 I have to apologize. We have to go
3 pick up our children at school and we are already late.
4 --- Applause / Applaudissement
5 958 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
6 Mr. Strasfeld.
7 959 Mr. Secretary.
8 960 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
9 961 I would now like to call Ms Laurie
10 Ankenman.
11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
12 962 MS ANKENMAN: Good evening, everyone.
13 1953
14 963 I have been a listener of CBC radio,
15 primarily the English radio, for the last 22 years. I
16 have also lived in four major Canadian cities during
17 that time, both in western and eastern Canada, and I
18 had the opportunity to travel to both coasts by car
19 over that time span.
20 964 I chose CBC radio, as I still do, as
21 my primary source of information because, quite simply,
22 it has kept me connected to this country during all
23 those years serving as the national public broadcaster.
24 965 Fulfilling a role such as this in a
25 country as large and diverse as ours is something CBC
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1 staff and management have accomplished with style,
2 professionalism, and a commitment worthy of many
3 accolades.
4 966 Instead of accolades, however, the
5 successive cost-cutting measures and downsizing in
6 recent years has placed the CBC in jeopardy. My
7 increasing concern over the CBC brought me here tonight
8 to reiterate the necessity of CBC as the national
9 public broadcaster, and to support the renewal of its
10 licences by the CRTC.
11 967 So my comments are primarily in
12 reference to CBC radio, because I prefer radio and only
13 occasionally view CBC television.
14 968 The new millennium will bring no
15 fewer stresses, likely much greater ones to CBC to
16 provide objective, in-depth coverage, in which is
17 excels. I do not see any need for CBC radio to fulfil
18 this role of public broadcaster in any significantly
19 different ways in the new millennium, but it cannot
20 continue this fundamental role without adequate federal
21 support.
22 969 I would only caution, actually, that
23 CBC decision-makers on the magnitude of resources that
24 it would consider committing to the high-tech Internet
25 arm of this organization, because radio and television
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1 remain the most accessible avenue to receive news and
2 information for the majority of Canadians.
3 970 So many examples come to mind of the
4 quality of local and regional reporting. The Red River
5 flood of 1997 put CBC radio and television in Winnipeg
6 to the test. Other programming was suspended in order
7 to focus all available resources on a natural crisis of
8 immense proportions that demanded all the attention CBC
9 could possibly devote. This was not only critical for
10 the local community, who mobilized in ways not
11 experienced in decades to assist others in coping with
12 massive losses, but the public broadcasting role of CBC
13 automatically informed the rest of Canada, and we who
14 live here know the response of Canadians all across
15 this country.
16 971 The Saguenay flood, the ice storm
17 last year are two other examples where Canadians came
18 together to assist one another because of CBC radio and
19 television during these large scale human and
20 environmental crises in Canada.
21 972 Public programming on CBC radio is
22 usually viewed as being for the good of our Canadian
23 society, and I can't agree more, and there is little
24 financial return. I know also that the quality of this
25 programming is not found in the private sector which,
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1 by its nature, operates on a profit-basis. Nowhere
2 else can I listen to investigative journalism and a
3 wide array of information, including Canadian history,
4 culture and politics found on not just the local
5 programs but on the national programs like so many of
6 my favourites. Ideas, As It Happens, Quirks & Quarks,
7 Basic Black, The House and, of course, the comedy
8 programs like Double Exposure.
9 973 I cannot imagine my life without
10 these programs to challenge my brain and keep me up to
11 speed on current affairs, cultural affairs and
12 politics, and what the rest of Canada and the world is
13 up to.
14 974 These programs, all of them personal
15 favourites, are unique and should be offered by a
16 public broadcasting system which is not constrained by
17 a profit motive.
18 975 The private broadcasting sector will
19 never be able to provide what the CBC provides: A
20 forum for keeping this country knitted together.
21 Herein lies the strength of the CBC. The wool is the
22 news and the information, the needles are the CBC
23 staff. The needles knit, and I receive, knowing that
24 it is a right and a privilege.
25 976 Because some years back I took an
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1 opportunity of a lifetime to travel to the former
2 Soviet Union. The timing could not have worse, I flew
3 one week following the Chernobyl disaster. During my
4 14-day stay I lived in a news vacuum. An entire nation
5 was in severe crisis as one of the world's worst
6 disasters unfolded, and yet on the English radio
7 programmed for tourists like myself, there was
8 virtually no coverage of any substance. That was
9 really difficult for me, especially being a radiophile
10 that I am.
11 977 So when that two-week period ended
12 and I flew back home, I felt immense relief to have
13 immediate access to CBC radio once again, knowing I
14 could trust its cover and, even more basic, that it was
15 there.
16 978 I have not and never will forget
17 those feelings of a hunger for news and information,
18 especially during a time of massive environmental and
19 human disaster that profoundly impacted not only on
20 that nation but the world as well.
21 979 So in further reflecting on this, the
22 current strike actually has elicited some similar
23 feelings for me, those feelings of an information void.
24 980 In a world of information overload
25 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is a lifeline for
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1 me. It helps me to keep up with the changes in my
2 country and to make sense of the world.
3 981 I am someone who routinely changes
4 the dial to CBC when I go to visit my parents, at least
5 for the odd newscast and special program, because I
6 want to remain connected to the rest of my country.
7 982 Yes, the CBC is sacred and
8 distinctive. And I do expect the CBC will receive
9 another round of licensing from the CRTC and hope that
10 these will be issued to the extent that it reflects
11 this distinctiveness.
12 983 Thank you for the opportunity to
13 present tonight.
14 --- Applause / Applaudissement
15 984 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
16 Ms Ankenman.
17 985 Mr. Secretary.
18 986 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
19 987 I would now like to call Ms Phyllis
20 Abbe and Mr. Mel Christian.
21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
22 988 MS ABBE: I am Phyllis Abbe.
23 989 MR. CHRISTIAN: I am Mel Christian.
24 2000
25 990 Good evening, Madam Chair.
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1 991 We are going to do this a little
2 differently, and you will have to tiptoe through it in
3 your bare feet to be able to find the answers to the
4 questions that you have posed for us.
5 992 MR. KRUSHEN: Go ahead.
6 993 MR. CHRISTIAN: I love my CBC, but
7 this is not a love-in.
8 994 MS ABBE: When forces dark sell the
9 CBC they sell our soul, our liberty, voices of the
10 people, the people's voice lamenting, the desecration
11 of integrity, a public good we have learned to
12 treasure, uniting us across the land, honing our
13 identify.
14 995 MR. CHRISTIAN: The beeper that
15 controls speech is now used almost every day all day by
16 political sympathizers not allowing political opinions.
17 The buzzer is not what we hear. The world that we hear
18 is what fills the circling buzzard space.
19 996 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the
20 people's voice lamenting. We were once proud Canadians
21 reflected back from public broadcasting, we saw the
22 image of ourselves command respect in foreign places, a
23 tolerant and a generous people, hearts and ports open
24 to receive refugees from war weary lands, our troops
25 peacekeeping, not warmongering in the world.
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1 997 MR. CHRISTIAN: Our politicians
2 support private corporate profits first and foremost
3 and always. The politician creates words and private
4 corporate rights faster than the public can understand
5 the motives. Political schemes support the private
6 profit brainwashing of listeners. Government does not
7 know how to play by its own proven established rules,
8 for it lets private corporations dictate caucus policy.
9 998 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the
10 people's voice lamenting. The Monsanto touch,
11 terminator politics, democracy corporatized,
12 genetically modified, a look-alike seed turned rogue.
13 The seed of death. Elephantine hysteria about to crush
14 the living civilization out of us. In Rama (ph) was
15 there a voice heard, lamentation and weeping and great
16 mourning. Rachel weeping for her children and would
17 not be comforted because they are not.
18 999 MR. CHRISTIAN: A man without culture
19 is no different than a rat. Canadian culture is what
20 makes this place Canada. Just as our bodies will die
21 without oxygen, our dispersed country is vulnerable
22 without CBC freedoms, propaganda purchased by those
23 that control creates more control. If we let profit be
24 the yardstick we will live in a corporate market region
25 of the world. The people of the world are being
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1 squeezed by the wealthy. Those that have demand more
2 above all.
3 1000 MS ABBE: Devil's advocate turned
4 biblical scholar unleashes the Book of Revelations in
5 self-fulfilling prophecy. The corporate agenda
6 effected, unelected. Our political leaders -- may God
7 forgive us for electing them -- turn traitor and
8 Judas-like betray us. They themselves drag within our
9 boundaries the Trojan Horse of our destruction, our own
10 legislators a fifth column for the colonizing
11 multinationals.
12 1001 MS CHRISTIAN: To cry after the milk
13 has been split will create nothing, for the gate has
14 already been opened and the time will have passed to
15 push back the force of evil. The cutting, the
16 slashing, the burning in every country is isolating,
17 impoverishing and controlling. Canada must control
18 this cycle of unfettered profit. Corporate wealth has
19 no bounds and no limits and, most importantly, no
20 morals.
21 1002 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the
22 people's voice lamenting do no harm to the voice of our
23 past. Speaking to our present, waiting to greet our
24 yet unborn. Voice of the eternal now are brushed with
25 immortality.
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1 1003 MR. CHRISTIAN: My CBC has our past
2 securely locked up in its vaults, free from the ravages
3 of time and man's tinkering. We know who we are and
4 when we were from that vivid record. This presence of
5 accounts ferment our reality, is the essence of our
6 Canadian identity that must remain Canadian at all
7 sacrifice. To secure our past we must prevent the
8 neutering of the CBC and its assets.
9 1004 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the
10 people's voice disclaiming, we are not Faust, we will
11 not sell our public good for corporate favours. May
12 God bless the CBC for it belongs to you and me.
13 1005 MR. CHRISTIAN: Amen.
14 1006 Thank you.
15 --- Applause / Applaudissement
16 1007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Abbe
17 and Mr. Christian.
18 1008 Mr. Secretary.
19 1009 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
20 1010 I would now like to call Mr. Harold
21 Shuster.
22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23 1011 MR. SHUSTER: Good evening.
24 2006
25 1012 Much of what I want to say has
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1 already been said by others before me and much more
2 thoughtfully put together, particularly the last
3 presentation.
4 1013 I would like to start with a little
5 bit of background to my history with the CBC.
6 1014 I first started listening to the CBC
7 in 1983 when I was living in Whitehorse, and when I
8 moved to Winnipeg in 1986 my radio hasn't been off of
9 the CBC since that time. We have four radios in our
10 house, and all four of them are on the CBC.
11 1015 The CBC informs me, it entertains me,
12 it enlightens me and it connects me to my community, my
13 city, my province and the country in a way that no
14 other broadcaster could.
15 1016 My experience with the CBC is
16 primarily with English radio, but as a father of a
17 28-month old, I am becoming more and more familiar with
18 CBC Playground and now look forward to the exploits of
19 Jasper at the Dead Dog Cafe as much as I do with what's
20 happening with Noddy or Roly-Poly-Oly (ph) or the Zapp
21 Family (ph).
22 1017 The importance of CBC for me and
23 other -- and many here is that it plays, I think, a
24 vital role in keeping Canadians in touch with each
25 other and what makes us unique as a nation. The CBC
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1 serves a role that cannot, would not, and is not being
2 fulfilled by public broadcasters.
3 1018 While I was too young to remember
4 where I was when Kennedy was shot, I'm sure I'm part of
5 a generation of CBC listeners who will know exactly
6 where they were when Peter Gzowski went off the air.
7 1019 I think the current trend of media
8 concentration makes it even more important that a
9 public broadcaster like the CBC provide Canadians with
10 a balanced perspective on local, national and
11 international news, unimpeded by demands from
12 advertisers. The vast majority of whom are big
13 corporations and transnationals whose needs are being
14 very well served by the likes of Conrad Black, Izzy
15 Asper, Paul Desmarais, the Thompson's and the Irving's.
16 1020 The CBC provides a much needed forum
17 for Canadians to debate, discuss and participate in the
18 evolution of our country. It serves a democratizing
19 role in a nation whose political spectrum is being ever
20 more narrowed and shifting to the right by both U.S.
21 interest and media moguls whose interests lie not in
22 reporting but formulating and making news that will fit
23 with their view of what values and ideals our society
24 should aspire to. It is not one that I share, and the
25 CBC provides a place where differing views can be
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1 freely and opening expressed and in such a way as to
2 lend them credibility.
3 1021 I would also like to talk about
4 funding a little bit, and I think the ability of the
5 CBC to fulfil its role and mandate has been
6 significantly jeopardized by funding cuts from the
7 federal government. Cuts to the CBC under the current
8 Liberal government have amounted to approximately
9 $400 million at the end of 1997/98. On a per capita
10 basis the current funding is 47 per cent less than it
11 was in 1984/85.
12 1022 Restoring funding to the CBC is
13 important to Canadians and to the cultural community as
14 a whole. Cuts to the CBC's budget have a ripple effect
15 throughout the cultural sector since the CBC has
16 traditionally been the largest employer of artists in
17 Canada.
18 1023 Recent cuts to the CBC have meant
19 that repeat broadcasting has doubled to 33 per cent of
20 total hours. This saddens and infuriates me, because
21 it means that skilled, talented people have been put
22 out of work and valuable Canadian stories and ideas are
23 left wanting because there is no outlet for them.
24 1024 As a national public service, which
25 the CBC is, it must be adequately funded to serve that
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1 function to the highest degree possible. That would
2 require and needs to have foreign bureaus reopened and
3 reinstating the correspondence that work out of those
4 bureaus.
5 1025 When I was putting this together much
6 of my public presentations have been of a political
7 nature and speaking sort of intellectually.
8 1026 Much of the emphasis for me wanting
9 to come here tonight was to talk about how the CBC has
10 affected me personally, and I think some of what I have
11 wanted to say is a mix of that sort of intellectual why
12 we need the CBC and what the CBC has meant to me and
13 people who I associate with.
14 1027 I think in many senses that what you
15 have heard has been somewhat of a love-in for the CBC,
16 and I think generally that's how Canadians feel about
17 the CBC, they either love it or they hate it. Should
18 the CRTC renew the licence of the CBC because we all
19 love it? Well, probably not, but the licences should
20 be renewed, I think, for the reasons we love it. We
21 recognize and respect the integrity of the journalists,
22 the reporters and the producers who put the CBC's
23 programming together: it's independence; it's honest,
24 balanced presentation of the issues affecting us as a
25 community and a nation; it's support and promotion of
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1 new and uniquely Canadian talent from writers and
2 directors to artists in music, dance and theatre; and
3 for all the little ways that the CBC makes us feel
4 proud of ourselves, our neighbours and our country.
5 1028 Thank you.
6 --- Applause / Applaudissement
7 1029 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
8 Mr. Shuster.
9 1030 Mr. Secretary.
10 1031 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
11 1032 I would now like to call Mr. Al
12 Mackling and Mr. Dave Mackling.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 1033 MR. A. MACKLING: On a lighter note,
15 I would like to say that the Dave Mackling that is to
16 follow me is my older brother. I have another brother
17 and an --
18 2012
19 1034 MR. D. MACKLING: Older and wiser
20 brother, Al.
21 1035 MR. A. MACKLING: Well, that's a
22 matter of opinion.
23 --- Laughter / Rires
24 1036 MR. A. MACKLING: We have another
25 brother, another sister. Unfortunately, they are out
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1 of the province and are not able to be here to make
2 their own presentations. I hope that they subscribe to
3 the presentations of my brother Dave and I.
4 1037 I started out to answer the
5 questions, but I suppose like a lot of others I sort of
6 wandered off the questions.
7 1038 The first question: How well does
8 the CBC fulfil its role as the national public
9 broadcaster. I started faithfully with that one.
10 1039 In answer to that question I would
11 say quite well, not withstanding two successive federal
12 governments, one Conservative and the current Liberal
13 government's severe reduction in operational funding.
14 1040 It is important to remember that back
15 in 1935 a vastly different Conservative government had
16 the intestinal fortitude and wisdom to establish a
17 number of national or federal agencies publicly funded
18 at reasonable arms length from government to ensure
19 that our nation, with all its regional differences,
20 would be linked economically, socially and culturally
21 from sea to sea to sea.
22 1041 In 1935 Canadian nationalism was
23 important. It is sad to note that despite the
24 increasing threat of economic and cultural domination
25 from our giant neighbour to the south our current
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1 government is forcing the CBC to cut back its national
2 cultural efforts and intends to weaken its independence
3 in the name of greater accountability by the proposed
4 amendment to the CBC Act whereby the current government
5 intends that CBC directors will hold office only as
6 long as their performance pleases the government.
7 1042 Despite all this, CBC radio and TV
8 have done well. Before the slashing of the CBC budget
9 we enjoyed excellent TV programs that were crafted and
10 programmed locally, not only giving the CBC presence in
11 the local workforce of artists and skilled workers and
12 technicians, but also bringing the richness of
13 Manitoba's cultural heritage into the homes of
14 Manitobans, but also to the enlightenment of Canadians
15 generally.
16 1043 We need more local production and
17 programming to knit our cultural mosaic together.
18 1044 Is there a special role for the CBC?
19 Yes. Showcasing our cultural heritage and diversity,
20 and demonstrating that a nation can be richer
21 culturally through a mosaic of ethnicity rather than a
22 melting pot, and demonstrating that despite cultural,
23 religious and linguistic difference people can live
24 together in tolerance and peace.
25 1045 Yes, there is a role: educating
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1 young and old Manitobans -- young and old Manitobans
2 and Canadians about our history, about our aboriginal
3 brothers and sisters, and about the challenges we all
4 face going into the millennium.
5 1046 Yes, providing some recognition and
6 outlet for minority political opinion. While the NDP
7 did not have enough members in Parliament to receive
8 official status for rights in Parliament, it was
9 virtually shut out of commentary in CBC news coverage.
10 Furthermore, the CBC should document the vast contrast
11 in the quality of life that exists under various
12 government throughout the world. Perhaps then we
13 wouldn't be so likely to follow slavishly the
14 propaganda of corporate America, propaganda that brands
15 public enterprise as negative and inefficient, and
16 taxation as something terrible that should be avoided
17 at all costs.
18 1047 The CBC should not have to seek
19 funding through advertising. Its operations should be
20 fully funded publicly by a fair taxation of all
21 Canadians, including corporations whose profits arise
22 because of the educated skilled workers available to
23 them in Canada, workers whose health and social
24 security are paid for by public taxation.
25 1048 I have nothing but praise for most
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1 CBC productions. While we miss Peter Gzowski, CBC
2 radio continues to perform well, and I want to say
3 locally how pleased we are with Terry MacLeod and Ross
4 Rutherford, to mention just a two.
5 1049 CBC television, The Fifth Estate,
6 Witness, The Nature of Things and others are excellent.
7 But CBC television is not perfect. In my view Air
8 Farce and its ilk presents a very cynical and jaded
9 view of politicians. If I were Jean Chrétien -- and I
10 have no particular axe to grind for our Prime Minister.
11 I very much oppose most of the policies he has
12 represented and the decisions he has made in Canada,
13 but if I were Jean Chrétien I would be tired of the
14 mean characterizations that go on and on from week to
15 week of his persona.
16 1050 It's time broadcasters generally made
17 an effort to restore a healthy public perspective of
18 people who choose to serve their community, their
19 province and their country. Broadcasters should
20 remember that in a true democracy all members of
21 society should be politically aware, and hopefully
22 involved. In effect, all members of society should be
23 politicians.
24 1051 If broadcasters want to keep
25 prominent public officer holders accountable, do it,
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1 but don't degrade and lampoon them as if they are fair
2 game for any kind of satirical treatment.
3 1052 Now, if you want an example of the
4 kind of sophisticated satirical treatment of government
5 you don't have far to look. There was a series on the
6 BBC called Yes Minister that is --
7 1053 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's my
8 government.
9 1054 MR. A. MACKLING: There we are.
10 1055 That exemplified the kind of
11 sophisticated humour that debunked government in an
12 appropriate way.
13 1056 I believe that the CRTC should report
14 to the government that thinking Canadians want the CBC
15 to have greater funding, not less; more regional
16 programming, more reportage of Canadian sporting
17 events, less American professional sports, less
18 emphasis and reporting on the whims of the stock
19 market, and more reporting of local news.
20 1057 Finally, the government should be
21 advised to leave the CBC Act the way it is. If
22 R.B. Bennett in 1935, a Conservative, was not afraid of
23 an arms length public broadcaster, the CBC, why should
24 the current government want to tighten control of the
25 CBC? The CBC's role is to inform, educate, entertain
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1 and, as so many others have said, work as a force to
2 unify and integrate the Canadian culture. It has done
3 very, very well in the past, there is no reason why it
4 shouldn't continue to fulfil that role. But the
5 haemorrhaging, the cuts have to stop. Money has to be
6 put back, regional programming fleshed out again,
7 because we have a jewel that this country will not
8 allow to be lost.
9 1058 Thank you.
10 --- Applause / Applaudissement
11 1059 THE CHAIRPERSON: And now over to
12 your brother, Dave.
13 1060 MR. D. MACKLING: That's hard to
14 follow. You are a hard act to follow.
15 1061 The words "love-in" have been
16 expressed by one or two people, and I'm afraid my
17 presentation falls into the category of a love-in,
18 because I do love the CBC.
19 1062 I have listened to the CBC since, oh,
20 I guess 30-40 years, and my children grew up around the
21 supper table listening to Rawhide when they were just
22 little kids, and we looked forward to that so much
23 every evening.
24 1063 But, you know, we accept the fact
25 that you don't really miss something until you no
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1 longer have it, and that's my greatest fear about the
2 CBC gradually being eroded away. I think something
3 that exemplified that so much to us when my wife and I
4 were returning from Texas back in 1989, we had gone
5 almost crazy listening to all the trivial stuff on
6 American radio that we just were so happy when we got
7 close enough to the Canadian border that we could once
8 again tune into the CBC. It was really a glorious
9 moment for us.
10 1064 So I will begin my brief presentation
11 by paying tribute to those farsighted pioneers who
12 believed that a national radio network would inform
13 Canadians from coast to coast about this vast and
14 beautiful country. I think that over the years the CBC
15 has done an admirable job fulfilling that mandate.
16 1065 I personally have had my life
17 enriched in a number of ways. Yes, I have been
18 entertained, but most of all I have been educated by
19 being exposed to some of the great Canadians who have
20 debated important issues of the day with scientists,
21 teachers and writers.
22 1066 I think back to the programs hosted
23 by Peter Gzowski, and of the hundreds of interesting
24 discussions that ensued.
25 1067 Speaking of Peter Gzowski, let me
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1 just pause to say that 30 years ago Peter Gzowski
2 hosted a weekly program called Radio Free Friday. How
3 many of you remember that? I remember it because he
4 interviewed me one Friday evening.
5 1068 Anyway, I regard Peter Gzowski as a
6 national treasure, along with David Suzuki, Lister
7 Sinclair and many more who became household names.
8 1069 Thinking back many years ago I recall
9 a great Canadian entertainer such as Wayne and
10 Schuster, The Happy Gang, Max Ferguson as Rawhide and
11 many, many others who kept us glued to the radio.
12 1070 I'm happy that today we are still
13 receiving some excellent radio programs such as CBC
14 Radio Overnight, This Morning, As It Happens, Ideas,
15 Quirks & Quarks, Disc Drive, Basic Black, The House,
16 Cross Country Checkup, a few of my favourites -- by the
17 way, I almost forgot to mention The Vinyl Cafe.
18 1071 As far as television is concerned, I
19 would like to take a moment to reflect back to some
20 early TV programs enjoyed by my family and friends.
21 These were Don Messers Jubilee, Cross Canada Hit Parade
22 with Juliet -- do you remember that one -- The Tommy
23 Hunter Show, The Beachcombers, and of course today we
24 have some excellent programs such as The Nature of
25 Things, Market Place, Venture, Pamela Wallin, and I
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1 don't know what the program is, but we see Joe
2 Schlesinger on quite regularly, The Royal Canadian Air
3 Farce -- who brother Al doesn't think too much of,
4 but -- This Hour Has 22 Minutes, The Passionate Eye,
5 Wind At My Back. You know, these are all, for the most
6 part, wonderful programs that reflect Canada.
7 1072 Over the years we have developed a
8 wonderful pool of Canadian talent that has remained
9 loyal to Canada. This is something we should all be
10 very proud of too.
11 1073 I certainly will urge my Member of
12 Parliament to ensure that the CBC receives adequate
13 funding so that our national broadcaster can once again
14 play a leading role in informing and entertaining
15 Canadians.
16 1074 I thank you.
17 --- Applause / Applaudissement
18 1075 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
19 Mr. Mackling.
20 1076 Mr. Secretary.
21 1077 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
22 1078 I would now like to call the next
23 group of presenters. When I call your name, could you
24 please come forward to the table.
25 1079 Elizabeth Fleming, Stuart Clark, Ruth
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1 and Kris Breckman, Antony Waterman, Don Laluk, Linda
2 McMillan, Nigel Basely and Ian Ross.
3 1080 I will call Ms Elizabeth Fleming to
4 make a presentation.
5 --- Short pause / Courte pause
6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
7 1081 MS FLEMING: Thank you.
8 2028
9 1082 You will have to excuse me, I don't
10 have a written presentation, but some of your questions
11 were so provocative that I really felt I had to come
12 and address them.
13 1083 The one that I would like to start
14 with is: How well does the CBC serve the public on a
15 regional as well as a national level? In particular,
16 concentrating on the news and in television, 24 Hours,
17 The Regional Program and The National.
18 1084 I think in a time when the television
19 short hit aiming for stimulation, emotion and drama
20 challenges the efforts of some of us to sustain
21 thought, analysis and context, gives us a real cause
22 for concern. We are becoming a society for the short
23 term and we are seeing the death of context. A society
24 without context, and particularly a democracy, is
25 something of a dangerous thing.
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1 1085 One thing that I really appreciate in
2 the CBC is the fact that with professional journalists
3 who are able to stay at the respective levels of
4 government for some time and get to know what is going
5 on over time, have a knowledge of the history and how
6 the different levels of government fit together, and as
7 these journalists and presenters give this knowledge
8 across the airwaves it does provide a context and
9 continuing that we don't always see in other channels.
10 This is something that we really need to sustain. It
11 obviously requires more money and it requires a
12 commitment.
13 1086 Particularly in radio, one really
14 appreciates not having the short hits without
15 advertising. You are able to get a sustained approach
16 to issues and to have them discussed in more depth than
17 in programs with advertising. Here again, there is a
18 chance to go into more depth and to provide continuity
19 from day to day in the morning program and in the
20 afternoon program at the regional level.
21 1087 The balance, the fairness, the lack
22 of -- it is all based on having a lack of political
23 interference.
24 1088 I particularly ask the CRTC to
25 perhaps ask to see a January the 30th, 1997 program
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1 that CBC television did for 24 Hours, and in that
2 program they took us through the media rooms at the
3 "Leg" and showed how the desks were becoming emptier
4 and emptier as other television and radio stations were
5 not able to afford to keep journalists full time at the
6 "Leg" and covering it.
7 1089 CBC has been able to add continuity
8 and some of the newspapers, but it is expensive and it
9 does require help. But to get the feeling -- the
10 sustained approach for people to make analysis and to
11 understand how our political system is progressing we
12 do need to have people in those desks. They need to be
13 there.
14 1090 I would also like to see that they
15 cover more than question time and even go into more
16 depth, possibly covering estimates and getting into
17 looking into the future and what our politicians have
18 in store for us.
19 1091 At this time "Leg" has not sat for
20 eight months and we need journalists to tell us what's
21 happening in the programs and to help keep government
22 accountable, because our opposition parties are less
23 able to do that without question time.
24 1092 At the city level, we have excellent
25 reporters as well, and this is very much appreciated.
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1 They are there, they probably could do with two
2 reporters rather than just one to make sure that
3 everything is covered.
4 1093 So basically my point is, we cannot
5 lose sight of context and we do need the continuity and
6 people there to continue to give us that high standard
7 and the level of professionalism to which we have
8 become used.
9 1094 Thank you.
10 --- Short pause / Courte pause
11 1095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
12 Ms Fleming.
13 1096 Mr. Secretary.
14 1097 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
15 1098 I would now like to call Ms Linda
16 McMillan.
17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18 1099 MS McMILLAN: Thank you.
19 2032
20 1100 I am here tonight to speak for the
21 radio branch of the CBC.
22 1101 As a small child I remember our
23 family radio tuned to the CBC. My mother usually had
24 the radio playing in the kitchen as she worked. When
25 we became teenagers she switched over to the radio
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1 stations where my brothers began their careers, but she
2 still was a CBC television watcher.
3 1102 I began my career -- and I call it
4 career -- as a CBC listener when I married and moved to
5 Regina in 1967. I couldn't stand the local radio
6 stations. I disliked western music, I hated listening
7 to commercials about rockolators (ph), combines and
8 chemicals.
9 1103 The CBC provided me with middle of
10 the road intelligent coverage. I was delighted when
11 the commercials were removed a few years later.
12 1104 In Africa in the '70s I listened to
13 Radio Canada International. It kept us in touch with
14 the bigger issues of politics and sports, such as the
15 Grey Cups games, but it was dismal in telling me what
16 was happening in western Canada. We typified the
17 broadcast there as two items from Montreal, one from
18 Toronto and one from the rest of Canada. Chances of
19 getting any information about events outside of
20 Montreal or Toronto were minimal. I used the BBC, or
21 even Radio South Africa for world politics there.
22 1105 I became an absolute devotee of CBC
23 radio when we returned to Winnipeg in 1974. I turned
24 on the radio when I got out of bed, it stayed with me
25 throughout the day. I loved This Country in the
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1 Morning and Morningside in its various forms. The
2 programs were eclectic, and the various hosts treated
3 the audiences as intelligent. I learned about people
4 and events from around the country. I have always
5 appreciated the in-depth news coverage and have
6 listened to As It Happens since its inception.
7 1106 When I returned to the workplace in
8 the 1980s I continued to be a CBC fan. The radio gave
9 me the news before I went to work. My car radio
10 continued to inform me as I drove to and from work.
11 The house radio went on the minute I walked in the
12 door, and stayed with me when I worked in the kitchen
13 and at my desk in the evening. Weekends still allowed
14 me 25 hours worth of radio listening. My children
15 would never think to change a radio station to any --
16 on any of my radios.
17 1107 The 6:00 o'clock news provided us
18 with information and topics for dinnertime
19 conversation. Saturday morning mornings such as The
20 House taught them about politics, and Quirks & Quarks
21 trained them in science. They learned to laugh at the
22 likes of The Royal Canadian Air Farce and to listen to
23 late night music other than the usual teenage pop
24 classic.
25 1108 At the lake we would sit together and
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1 listen to Ideas. I gave up going to church on Sunday
2 mornings because I go to the church of the CBC.
3 --- Applause / Applaudissement
4 1109 MS McMILLAN: I cannot miss my dose
5 of information.
6 1110 I taught high school English and
7 discovered that most English teachers in this country
8 listen to the CBC. It unites us as a nation. I can
9 travel to all parts of this country and talk to
10 colleagues, not about literature, but about programs on
11 the CBC.
12 1111 In the 1970s I stopped watching
13 television completely, my radio was on constantly. I
14 would go to bed with the CBC listening to classical
15 music. It would become silent in the early days at
16 1:05, and it acted as my alarm and woke me up at 5:30
17 in the morning when it came back on.
18 1112 Since overnight coverage began I have
19 joined the ranks of the best informed insomniacs in the
20 country. I never turn my radio off when I'm at home.
21 I wake up at -- or if I wake up at 2:00 a.m. I listen
22 to Radio Finland. I love to be informed about what is
23 happening in Australia. My only complaint is that
24 there is very little coverage of events in Asian
25 countries or the Indian subcontinent. I certainly hope
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1 this coverage continues. It is interesting and a truly
2 wonderful addition to the CBC.
3 1113 To sum up, the CBC is intelligent,
4 informative and insightful. There is nothing like it
5 in this country. It unites us as a country and allows
6 us to have a common world view as a nation. Small
7 centres have equal access. You cannot -- you do not
8 have to live in a big eastern city to gain access to
9 intellectually challenging radio programs.
10 1114 Without a publicly funded CBC radio
11 we would be a much weaker country.
12 1115 That said, I do have several
13 concerns. I am concerned about the cutbacks which have
14 forced CBC to run many reruns throughout the week. I
15 don't mind hearing an occasional item a second time,
16 but there are some segments of some programs that I
17 have heard three, four and five times, and with the
18 technician strike this problem is magnified.
19 1116 I am even more concerning about
20 political interference. Having friends of the Prime
21 Minister and eastern politicians in general acting as
22 the Board of Governors of the CBC means that final
23 decisions might not be made on the basis of what is
24 artistically meaningful or in the best interest of the
25 country as a whole.
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1 1117 Further, I am extremely concerned
2 about what appears to be blatant political interference
3 in this past year. By this statement I am referring to
4 the actions of the PMO in silencing Terry Milewski and
5 the APEC coverage.
6 --- Applause / Applaudissement
7 1118 MS McMILLAN: How arrogant of the
8 Prime Minister to think that he and his office have the
9 right to complain about coverage and, even more, to act
10 to stop that coverage. Imagine if Nixon had had that
11 same power to stop The Washington Post from covering
12 Watergate. I fear for our country when the Board of
13 Governors and the appointed directors allow the PMO to
14 shut down an inquiry.
15 --- Applause / Applaudissement
16 1119 MS McMILLAN: In short, we need more
17 funding to the CBC so that decent salaries can be paid
18 to the technicians and the on-air people. I want my
19 radio to remain. It is vital to this nation.
20 1120 I also feel strongly that political
21 interference must stop. Politicians and civil servants
22 alike must be held accountable. A radio with the power
23 to investigate is an important tool in a democracy. If
24 you shut down a national radio, no one will have the
25 power to investigate or inform us. Activities such as
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1 those that occurred in B.C. last year will continue
2 unchecked. The RCMP and the PMO will eliminate free
3 speech, and we will be no better off than the citizens
4 of a tinpot dictatorship.
5 --- Applause / Applaudissement
6 1121 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
7 Ms McMillan.
8 1122 MS McMILLAN: Thank you.
9 1123 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.
10 1124 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
11 1125 I would now like to call Mr. Ian
12 Ross.
13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14 1126 MR. ROSS: Thanks for having me here.
15 I'm not here on behalf of anyone or anything, I guess
16 just myself.
17 2040
18 1127 I apologize if my presentation is
19 anecdotal, but that's the way I talk. Actually, I
20 wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for the CBC. I saw
21 it on the news this afternoon and I remember, oh yes, I
22 was going to come and talk here. So that's what I'm
23 doing.
24 1128 I just met some friends upstairs and
25 I turned around and I looked and I saw these beautiful
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1 ice sculptures there, and it surprised me. It
2 surprised me that they were there, for one thing, but
3 also that they were so beautiful. They were fragile
4 and diverse.
5 1129 So to use that as a metaphor, the
6 thing also about them is that they were all made out of
7 the same thing, ice. So I guess you can extend that
8 metaphor to us as Canadians. You have probably heard
9 this before, but in many ways the CBC can serve as that
10 ice, that thing that makes us all the same.
11 1130 I have been travelling across the
12 country a lot in the last year and the CBC was sort of
13 my cultural touchstone. It was the thing that reminded
14 me of where I was, because often in so many of our
15 cities now, you can be in Ottawa on a strip and it's
16 the same as Provencher here in Winnipeg, or it's the
17 same as a strip in Calgary, very American,
18 "Blockbuster", you know, "McDonald's", whatever.
19 People know what I'm talking about. But the CBC helped
20 remind me of where I was.
21 1131 It also kind of brings me to I guess
22 the only sort of warning I have. One of the other
23 things I have been noticing is something I call the
24 regional possessiveness. I'm not going to use specific
25 examples, but I have seen this possessiveness cause
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1 strife and discord, this like "No, this is ours. It's
2 not for Winnipeg, or it's not for Vancouver." And I
3 have seen that same divisiveness within the aboriginal
4 community, and that is something that has kept us from
5 achieving our goals for quite a long time, and I don't
6 want to see it repeated anywhere. Perhaps one of the
7 ways to deal with it is to call attention to it if it
8 ever rears its head.
9 1132 I haven't seen examples of that
10 within the CBC, luckily, but I have seen it in a book
11 that I put out called "Joe From Winnipeg", and my
12 publisher can't sell it anywhere other than Winnipeg
13 because he is told its regional. So the next book is
14 going to be called "The Book of Joe". Anyway --
15 --- Laughter / Rires
16 1133 MR. ROSS: You know, unfortunately a
17 lot of these booksellers were from Toronto and I'm not
18 going to pick on them because I understand it's colder
19 there than here right now. They need our sympathy.
20 1134 Anyway, when I was young and spending
21 part of my youth on the Reserve, there is only one
22 station up there, and that was the CBC. There was no
23 such thing as this 500 channel universe that we all
24 talk about that we now live in. It wasn't even
25 imagined back then. I mean, our TVs went up to 13 and
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1 there was the "U" channel that you always put it on but
2 never seemed to work.
3 1135 But we would wait for the end of the
4 programming day to see Fairford Channel 7. I realize
5 now that was probably a law or something, but that
6 sense of inclusion that gave us, or recognition, went
7 further than playing the Anthem, which they did at the
8 same time. So that's again some of the power that the
9 CBC can have. It's very subtle and it's all around us.
10 It's kind of like that ice I was talking about earlier,
11 we sort of take it for granted, although it's there,
12 but it's also fragile, like I said, as we are seeing
13 now.
14 1136 As far as inclusion, I think I am a
15 prime example for that. I literally walked in off the
16 street, that's how I got involved with CBC radio and
17 television, thanks to my producer Tom Anneco. He just
18 took a meeting with me and now I can say that it has
19 been very enriching and rewarding for me doing my
20 commentaries as "Joe From Winnipeg".
21 1137 People often say that CBC is elitist,
22 and I think that is somewhat of an excuse, because I
23 have found it be anything but. And it should continue
24 to do everything that it can to make us all feel
25 connected and part of a greater community of this
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1 country that we call Canada, because there is so much
2 now that can keep us at home. We can literally become
3 just sort of big heads living in our house. We don't
4 have to leave home any more, we can do banking over the
5 phone, over the Internet, shopping, you name it. So
6 rather than something that keeps us smaller, I think
7 it's something that can help us grow.
8 1138 I guess personally the example I
9 witnessed of that sort of power of what the CBC can do
10 was when I spoke at the Winnipeg Harvest Breakfast,
11 which is a food bank here. I had been doing my
12 commentaries for a few months and I had no sense of who
13 I was talking to. I can see all of you, so I'm talking
14 to you or the people behind me. But when I record
15 these things there was just me and my producer Tom and
16 a microphone. But when I went there the response was
17 quite overwhelming, and it's still overwhelming when
18 people come and talk to me and say they appreciate what
19 I do. Mine is just one voice, there are thousands and
20 millions of others out there.
21 1139 So finally, I guess, the CBC should
22 continue to go with the passion that is demonstrated
23 that we see here today, all these people who have come
24 and put their time and effort into speaking about what
25 it means to them, and what it means to me. Again, it's
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1 a subtle thing, it's not something that I can pinpoint
2 and say "Yes, it does that", because the CBC does many
3 things, and in many different ways.
4 1140 So my thanks for letting you listen
5 to me.
6 1141 Meegwetch!
7 --- Applause / Applaudissement
8 1142 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
9 Mr. Ross.
10 1143 Mr. Secretary.
11 1144 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
12 1145 At this point I would now like to go
13 through the list of presenters again recalling the
14 people who were not in the room when I made the initial
15 call.
16 1146 If any of the following are here,
17 would they please come up to the table: Ross Madder,
18 Tim Watts, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier, Jeff Brennan,
19 Stuart Clark, Ruth and Kris Breckman, Antony Waterman,
20 Don Laluk and Nigel Basely.
21 1147 You may begin when you are ready,
22 Mr. Laluk.
23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
24 1148 MR. LALUK: It seems that in the late
25 1800s, early 1900s it was very difficult for western
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1 Canada, Winnipeg, Calgary, Alberta, Saskatoon, to
2 recruit doctors, and there is a documented story of a
3 doctor that was a young doctor came to somewhere in
4 Saskatchewan and one of his first duties was to deliver
5 a child in a country home outside of Saskatoon. He
6 came to the home as a young doctor, probably had the
7 experience of delivering maybe three or four children,
8 to a country farmhouse. The lady had already had six
9 children and they were all delivered by a midwife. The
10 doctor came to the home and came into probably a
11 two-room country farmhouse where the woman was, he
12 said, ready to deliver the child. In the corner was
13 sitting the midwife who had already delivered six of
14 this family's children. Of course, she was sitting
15 there not very exited about the new doctor, this young
16 boy from Toronto coming to deliver one of her patient's
17 children.
18 2046
19 1149 The story goes that the doctor came
20 knowing that the woman was ready to deliver, and for
21 some reason she simply wouldn't. And he had the
22 presence of mind enough to ask the midwife if she would
23 help him. She said, "Well, if you really think you
24 want me to help you", she said, "maybe we should quill
25 her". Of course, not knowing what that really meant,
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1 he said "Well, maybe that's a good idea. Why don't I
2 boil the water and you can get it ready." So she asked
3 him to go to the barnyard and pick out the largest
4 goose quill that he could find. He came back with the
5 goose quill and he said -- she asked him, she said
6 "Would you like to do it or would you want me to do
7 it?" He said, "No, I think you had better do it",
8 having no idea what she was going -- what she was about
9 to do.
10 1150 She walked up to the woman and took
11 the goose quill and stroked it under her nose.
12 Subsequently the woman sneezed and gave birth to the
13 child.
14 --- Laughter / Rires
15 1151 MR. LALUK: Some of you must have
16 heard that story before.
17 1152 I delight in telling that story to my
18 medical friends because it is a true and documented
19 story. It was on Lister Sinclair's Ideas many years
20 ago. While my daughter was serving a church mission I
21 taped that story and sent it to her, along with many
22 others from As It Happens and other programs.
23 1153 I remember seeing several years ago
24 the picture "Cinema Paridiso", and I'm sure that many
25 of us have seen that movie, and after leaving the movie
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1 it really -- it really came to my mind that here in a
2 little Sicilian village after the Second World War,
3 probably in the early '50s, the entire small village of
4 600 or 800 people gathered every week to watch a movie.
5 And what did they watch? They watched John Wayne,
6 Marilyn Munroe, all the American stars. And we don't
7 realize how much influence and the propaganda the
8 American movie industry has been. All over the world
9 people are watching and listening to what I call the
10 new American heros, Vanna White and what's his name,
11 and we don't realize how important an influence I think
12 that we have by our only real national radio station,
13 and one of the identifiers of who we are as Canadians.
14 1154 So obviously we need to restore the
15 funding, and my vote is just that, to restore the
16 funding and to continue on our great radio.
17 1155 Thank you.
18 --- Applause / Applaudissement
19 1156 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you,
20 Mr. Laluk.
21 1157 This concludes the presenters that we
22 had registered. As I stated initially, we will now
23 provide to CBC the opportunity to provide any rebuttal
24 that they would wish.
25 1158 Is it you, Mr. Bertrand?
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1 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
2 1159 MR. BERTRAND: Yes. Thank you very
3 much.
4 1160 Thank you very much, Commissioner
5 Cram and Commissioner Wylie.
6 1161 It has been a long day and it's
7 getting late so I will be as brief as possible.
8 1162 My name is John Bertrand, I am the
9 Regional Director of Radio for CBC here in Manitoba.
10 With me this evening, sitting in the front row, is Carl
11 Carp, who is the Program Director for CBC Television in
12 Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Also in the audience today,
13 throughout the day, have been representatives of our
14 French language sister services, and of the English
15 radio and television networks, including the
16 Vice-Presidents Alex Frame and Harold Redekopp for
17 Television.
18 1163 I said this at an earlier session, we
19 have been here primarily to listen -- and I underline
20 that -- to listen, because what Manitobans have to say
21 about the CBC is extremely important to all of us. We
22 have been taking very careful note, I have been
23 frantically jotting down notes, and we have made note
24 of all the comments that people have made throughout
25 the day in all of the sessions, and we are going to
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1 follow up on every single one of them.
2 1164 In fact, we intend to respond to them
3 directly and personally in writing to every individual
4 who took the time and effort to make a presentation
5 today, and I thank all of them personally for doing
6 that. We thank them very much for their support, their
7 suggestions and very constructive criticism.
8 1165 Most of all I think we thank them for
9 their obvious interest in and concern for the CBC and
10 what it means to all Manitobans and all Canadians. I
11 was quite moved by the fact, I think, that many people
12 spoke with real thoughtfulness and eloquence,
13 conviction, and a word we used I think, Commissioner,
14 in an earlier session "passion". A lot of people
15 mentioned passion.
16 1166 People spoke from the mind, and they
17 also spoke very much, I thought, from the heart.
18 1167 Many of the issues raised here today
19 will be addressed through the CBC's licence renewal
20 process, issues like local news coverage, regional
21 production for both regional and network broadcast, the
22 exchange of programs among regions and between French
23 and English Canada; the most effective way to provide
24 international new coverage with a Canadian perspective,
25 and that was raised several times; the proper place of
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1 both professional and amateur sports in our television
2 schedule; the best way -- and this came up this
3 evening -- to repeat programs so that everyone who
4 wants to see and hear an item can do so without these
5 items wearing out their welcome. These are obviously
6 matters that are important to many of the people who
7 showed up here today, and they are very important to us
8 as well at CBC.
9 1168 We will be using the licence renewal
10 process to confirm our continuing commitment to fair,
11 balanced, independent, in-depth and investigative
12 journalism. All of that is very important. And our
13 ongoing support for Canadian talent from the Manitoba
14 Chamber Orchestra, who was represented here tonight,
15 and the Winnipeg Folk Festival, to local playwrights
16 and producers. We will demonstrate that what we are
17 doing to address First Nations issues and to present
18 the voices, faces, stories and talents of Canadians of
19 all backgrounds in our programming. We will address
20 issues of coverage, and as well the issue -- the big
21 issue, the use of new technologies.
22 1169 In the area of public accountability,
23 and again that was an issue that has come up a few
24 times, the CBC has made, I believe very much,
25 significant efforts to make itself more accessible and
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1 accountable to people of Canada, and of Manitoba in
2 recent years, and we intend to redouble those efforts
3 in the future.
4 1170 Because, as several presenters made
5 clear today, our listeners and viewers are shareholders
6 in what we do. They are the owners of CBC Manitoba,
7 CBC across the country, CBC radio, CBC French, CBC
8 television, all aspects of it. You are the people who
9 are the shareholders and the owners of all of that. It
10 is your -- and I think a few people said it -- it is
11 your CBC.
12 1171 In closing, Commissioners -- and
13 again I said this earlier -- I just want to say how
14 grateful the CBC is to have the opportunity to hear
15 directly from Manitobans about what they think about
16 CBC radio and CBC television. I am personally very
17 gratified and I know my colleagues are gratified by the
18 strong support expressed by so many of today's
19 speakers, and we are determined to do everything we can
20 to earn and deserve that support of the people here in
21 the future.
22 1172 We are also very much committed to do
23 our best to address the concerns that have been raised
24 by everyone here today.
25 1173 On behalf of my colleagues, thank you
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1 very much for what really was an enthralling day in a
2 lot of ways, a very stimulating day, satisfying, and I
3 hope a productive day as well.
4 1174 Thank you very much.
5 --- Applause / Applaudissement
6 1175 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
7 1176 Thank you each and every one for
8 coming to this consultation.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2100 /
10 L'audience est ajournée à 2100
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