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Re: Running Tired.

Originally Posted by IainR

Exactly at a low manage any additional mileage will help..

I really don't get this need to rest excuse.. its an excuse to do nothing.. in reality rest makes little difference.. I ran 57 mins for 10 miles the day after a hard hilly 17 mile trail run. Had I rested I'd have maybe ran 56-56:30..

Far more beneficial is bang a endurance base in.. I don't think a steady 10 miler is a hard session..

I'm tapering.. I'm recovering... its all you seem to hear from some people.. tapering from what? You need to taper from something, not 20 miles week... it just comes across as an excuse not to train..

True, and I agree with you on the low mileage part (a lot of my clubmates think I do high mileage and I only average about 35-40mpw!)

However, do you not agree that you should have "easy" days in your training (whatever your mileage) - for some people this could equate to a "rest day" - for example after a hard speed session (or if you use Daniels' ideas after 2 hard back-to-back days), and so you only do an easy, say, 5miles?

Re: Running Tired.

Originally Posted by fozzy

True, and I agree with you on the low mileage part (a lot of my clubmates think I do high mileage and I only average about 35-40mpw!)

However, do you not agree that you should have "easy" days in your training (whatever your mileage) - for some people this could equate to a "rest day" - for example after a hard speed session (or if you use Daniels' ideas after 2 hard back-to-back days), and so you only do an easy, say, 5miles?

For sure.. even the super high mileage kenyans are pretty strict on 1 day a week rest..

I don't but that's due to a number of reasons but get to a point where I need a rest day, but often a steady 4-5 miler will leave me fresh the next day..

Re: Running Tired.

Iain, i think the view that rest days don't work is perhaps more accurately, rest days don't work for you. Much depends upon the individual. I find that they do work (for me), esp when i'm training with a goal in mind and looking to move up a level. I remember training for rounds and marathons and banging out 15-20 days on the bounce and seeing a gradual improvement. I started swapping junk mileage (4-5 miles easy) for rest and stretching (30 boring but useful minutes) and the improvement became more pronounced. Mileage went down to about 45ish from 60 and my road pbs got smashed.

It worked for me, but perhaps my rate of recovery is slower than yours (my running clearly is). The principle, which applies to any athlete of any ability is to measure your runs and know your form, and then to experiment with things until you find out what works for you. You're obviously a fine runner and i think it could be dangerous for you to state blankly that rest days don't work because someone for whom they would might see your form, take that advice and inhibit their progress or worse, get injured.

Re: Running Tired.

Originally Posted by Mark Smith

Iain, i think the view that rest days don't work is perhaps more accurately, rest days don't work for you. Much depends upon the individual. I find that they do work (for me), esp when i'm training with a goal in mind and looking to move up a level. I remember training for rounds and marathons and banging out 15-20 days on the bounce and seeing a gradual improvement. I started swapping junk mileage (4-5 miles easy) for rest and stretching (30 boring but useful minutes) and the improvement became more pronounced. Mileage went down to about 45ish from 60 and my road pbs got smashed.

It worked for me, but perhaps my rate of recovery is slower than yours (my running clearly is). The principle, which applies to any athlete of any ability is to measure your runs and know your form, and then to experiment with things until you find out what works for you. You're obviously a fine runner and i think it could be dangerous for you to state blankly that rest days don't work because someone for whom they would might see your form, take that advice and inhibit their progress or worse, get injured.

I didn't say rest days don't work with any seriousness... they do they just need the right setting.. but people here taper of no mileage.. you taper OFF.. so you need to be coming off something for a taper to work.. to be honest I've only seriously tapered once and I as desperate to taper as I'd done a 16 weeks of 75-95 mpw's and was really tired.

Fell runners don't periodise at all though, well most don't, a good 3-4 month period of steady mileage will set up a nice endurance base for the summer.

I just think you can only expect to feel fresh for a few races a year. If people race 40 times a year they can't expect to get fitter if they rest before and after each race. I only have 5-10 goal races a year, the others, like Kinder Trog, will be done as standard training runs. I'll run them hard but today I'll run 12 miles, cycle 30 miles, but for Wyddfa I'll have 2-3 days off that week.

Once you hit 45-60 miles I think that's different. People are talking about rest days off very low mileage, of less than 20-30 miles. If they are so time constrained then they should run when they can. From 0-~50 miles pw the improvement is pretty much linear, the more you run the quicker you run. From ~ 50ish onwards its different. Some people just can't manage a much higher load, others just don't like the tiredness which comes with higher mileage of 70-90 miles a week.

Don't underestimate the importance of those 60 mile weeks. Yes after you ran them and started resting and training cleverly you got better. That doesn't mean the 60 mpw didn't help, they could be the very reason you were running better afterwards as you would have had the physiological benefit of them.

Re: Running Tired.

Your last para makes a good point, but i feel if i'd have done more of those weeks i;d have come a cropper. They did have an impact, that is true.

Right now, with working away and having a toddler i am firmly in the run when i can category. Knowing that i'll only get out 2/3 times a week means that I'm starting to work much harder when i do go out. Even for half an hour in london after a day's work. I'm already starting to notice a difference - so if you have enforced rest days, i suppose the learning is give yourself a session that requires some rest from!

Re: Running Tired.

Originally Posted by Mark Smith

Your last para makes a good point, but i feel if i'd have done more of those weeks i;d have come a cropper. They did have an impact, that is true.

Right now, with working away and having a toddler i am firmly in the run when i can category. Knowing that i'll only get out 2/3 times a week means that I'm starting to work much harder when i do go out. Even for half an hour in london after a day's work. I'm already starting to notice a difference - so if you have enforced rest days, i suppose the learning is give yourself a session that requires some rest from!

A lot of it is what works for you, trial and error.. some top runners do very low mileage and loads of bike works..

I find long periods of back breaking high mileage then a few weeks of intensity works. But the problem is I eat way too much when running lots so do race better off lower mileage, mainly as I think I'm healthier on it.. I just eat junk on high mileage.

Re: Running Tired.

I am trying to build up the mileages and overall 'time out' again following a 5 month period of injury. I am doing well in getting long sessions in on a Saturday, but my midweek running, including Sunday, is mainly 3-5 20-40 minute fast cross country runs with a fast 5 k thrown in.

Trying to get my mile times down below 6min as well as the endurance back to over 6-8 hours.

I know I need to add some more mileage in midweek so looking at getting up silly early one morning a week to get 60-90 minute run in on the nearby hills. I have tried to do this after work but always get bogged down with family stuff.

I am doing a few PBR and BGR supports at the weekend which normally involves night navigation so I am gettign knackered driving around - but aren't we all

Never measure the height of a mountain until you reach the top, then you will see how low it is.