That sounds really cool about the upcoming version, I've tried Pussy xtra several times, but it got a little confusing because of the menus, including that there are menus for Debian and Pussy apps and some are repeated.

And that wallpaper was really awesome, although I've rebooted back into it and I can't figure out how I made it appear. I did it on the third or fourth boot anyways, it's not obvious.

But I did like that it had lmms. It would be nice if the new version has Ardour, although I certainly wouldn't mind some lesser known apps like Jokosher, GNUSound, or JahShaka.

Hi buddy
Old Pussy booted into a JWM XORG desktop without roxfiler enabled by default, to save ram (using this you could actually run Pussy with 64MB RAM reasonably ok). If you want to bring up the high quality desktop then click on the "meow?" menu tab then click on the "Rox Filer Background" tab. This enables the high quality desktop.

In the next version of pussy, it will automatically boot to the high quality desktop with rox filer running and managing the background wallpaper etc.

You have a right to be confused bu the double Pussy and Deban menus, that was an actual bug. I just wanted there to be Pussy or Programs or Accessories or whatever menu there, but for some reason JWM always insisted on putting a Debian entry there and when you install stuff by apt-get the updated menu entry would end up in Debian. But all the custom stuff was in Pussy because the debian base wouldnt allow the custom stufff to be in Debian.
The real problem here is the auto added stuff you install would auto add itself to Debian menu selection but it wouldnt work. This is why we needed to add another custom section, i called Pussy that actually had working menus. It was a mess.

i think saintless came up with a work around and this will be fixed in the next version.

thanks for suggesting the other applications at the end of your post, i will check them out. I use Linux to make music as well and i definately want all the best audio creation/ editing stuff to be in Pussy.

sickgut so much to read through Hope you
and everubody can have patience with me now.

I boot that new iso and all works well but I am at a prompt
and have no idea what to write for to get a desktop?

Very embarrassing but that is me.

There is nothing other than a bare console in that wheezy-base.iso
not a Pussy yet, just the bare bones that Pussy will be built on top of, there is no desktop etc. However network stuff is autodetected and there is all the usual Linux command line commands and its a good base for someone wanting to make their own Linux OS by building ontop of this, its really only useful for developers and is half the size or less than the same ISO downloaded from the official Debian Live servers because ive slimmed it. But if you wanted to add a desktop then try:

sudo -i
apt-get update
apt-get install xorg jwm rox-filer

You might want to have something better than JWM as the window manager as its pretty damn terrible if it hasnt been tweaked.

If you are going for a lighter desktop then try instead without rox-filer then:

apt-get install xorg fluxbox

Fluxbox kind of has more working features than most Window Managers in their default un tweaked state.

Thanks for testing the iso, did you boot the actual ISO in GRUB or copy the files from the ISO onto the HDD and boot it frugally with GRUB that way?Last edited by sickgut on Wed 13 Feb 2013, 01:13; edited 2 times in total

... isnt going to be happening anymore. Keeping track and sync of all the squashfs files working together took so much upkeep its not worth it. ...

This is one of the major tactical changes that today's PCs afford this development community.

The main PCs that this community is using is a 2006 or later PC which was a 1GB standard even then. (There are very very few users whose ONLY PC is a 256MB PC, earlier than 2006.) And, for those pre-2006 PC it is hoped that their PC running Linux is still as speedy today as when they first booted it last year or earlier. Primarily, 2006+ PCs give developers a platform where they have enough room to provide the very best OOTB comfortable user experience possible. They were not able to do this years ago. Now, functionality has become much more important than limited usability due to size.

One idea that several of the distro developers have utilized is they indicate in the Opening Thread in some occasions, what spec PC they intend as the minimum platform for their distro. Some have gone so far as to indicate the minimum, but, put a disclaimer that says it "MAY" run on platforms less than the minimum. But doing so, it is understood what the distro developer is suggesting as a comfortable system to support what is delivered.

I have run many distros in the community, and have NOT found, even, one distro that did NOT find comfort in all of my 2006+ PCs. 2 years ago, the developers in Puppy Linux was a 32bit leader in producing PUPs that run on PCs with as little as 512MB to as much RAM as is physically possible to cram into a system. And, those new generation 32bit PC did NOT lose a step with their older technology 32bit kernel distro brethren. In fact, community members were reporting positive responsiveness with PAE distros compared to the non-PAE versions.

At the end of 2010, 2 64bit PUPs appeared. One a 200MB version and the other a robust 600MB version. In running each, the 600MB version was, simply, as fast, if not faster than the 200MB version. What this demonstrates to community members is that the size of the distro has little to do with the user performance needs for their system. The biggest advantage of the 600MB system was that I had little to no need to install anything in using it. I ran that system for a year with its only reboot was on its first day after desktop tailoring to get a save-session image of the system.

I think that many members in this community, too, may have a system or 2 that they rarely touch, while they experiment with the distros that they test from time-to-time.

Hopefully, others will share their successful operations so that it helps you to decide the kind of systems you would want for their use.

We just need good Pussy.

i completely agree with you. Now that disk space is huge on the normal PC (even from 2006) and USB sticks and SD cards and blank CDROM and DVD's are so cheap. then its best to make an OS fit snugly on the media its intended for and include as much functionality as Possible. There is no point in a 100 or 200MB distro anymore, it costs the same to burn a 100MB distro to a DVD as a 4GB distro. Also like you said, smaller size on the disk doesnt mean faster. The only way smaller 100MB or 200Mb distros are faster than 600MB ones is your using copy to RAM and running it from RAM. Today we have PCs with 4GB and even 16GB RAM.

The size of the media Pussy is intended to be installed on will gauge its size, except for Pussy server as its hard to make a console only OS fill an entire CDROM:

I had promised myself to boot as many OS as I could
using rcrsn51 version of Scooby's easy to boot
that is renamed by rcrsn51 to isobooter that makes
it always fresh boot I guess always calling the "live"
so maybe no persistence other than if one know how
to do such on usb on live OS. thanks for your suggestions

i think I stick to CrunchBang and Zorin and Netrunner
that have almost everything installed from scratch
and are still under 1GB so they fit a small cheap old usb_________________I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

Posted: Wed 13 Feb 2013, 14:37 Post subject:
Some current full featured examples

There are 2 Puppy distros that I have run, continuously, since their introduction primarily because they are so fully featured with little to no need to add anything externally. They are LightHouse Mariner (64bit) and Slacko's FATSlacko (32bit). FATDOG64 also comes to mind but does not bring some office packaging or sharing that the others bring OOTB. All of these fit nicely on a CD (ranging 250-550MB)

This info is presented, merely, as examples of some of the efforts others in the Puppy community present for a much fuller (and stable) OOTB solution for community's productive use. These provide an integration in the OOTB which is assembled proper, and tested leaving little to chance in system issues from incorrect PPM/product additions which sometimes occur when users attempt upgrades. Each of these distros bring forward the same ability to extend the system that all prior PUPs bring to the table.

This does not suggest anything at all about Pussy or your direction. For Pussy is a well concieved, thought thru, and assembled packaging that WORKS! The ideas on the other distros in done ONLY to provide a look at what is an OOTB experience where anyone with a Apple/Windows background (99% of the world's PC users) would be totally impressed with. The 2 authors seemed to have tried to cover everything any user (much less Windows user) would ever look for, OOTB.

You have done a wonderful creation with Pussy. I look forward to your future creations. And, we will help in any way, same as most/all other Puppy contributors would, to bring usefulness to the community.

Thanks for all you've done and all you intend to do for us._________________Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Enginesor use DogPile

Windows seems to be the standard everyone is trying to make a Linux distro to be like, simply to help people move from windows to Linux.....

But Windows OOTB is rather lame, and adding stuff is even lamererer.

You want firefox? ok goto www.firefox.com ... You want a better DVD player software ? Sort through 100 google searches and websites. And dont forget all the crap with needing antivirus, antispyware... goto www.gimp.org to get gimp, goto the sun/ oracle website then find what java you need, then goto adobes website to find flash. Then download a wav editor and goto www.fruityloops.com for the demo of flstudio, then sort though 100 different web pages for a decent dvd to mp4 file ripper and dont forget to pay for MS Office, coz thats got to be the best right?
OK lets get a free game... Open Arena at www.openarena.ws (because everyone automatically guesses that Open Arena would be at a .ws site and not a .com right?)

Dont forget that installing windows takes about half a day once your done with drivers. And then searching for all your apps will take the other half of the day.

Thats how you do things in Windows... but in a well sorted linux?
Insert Linux CDROM or DVD, copy save file to HDD or select USB stick install or HDD frugal or whatever it is,we all know how quick this is with Puppy or Pussy... Maybe 20 mins if yo havent had your coffee for the day?

This might take you 2 minutes if you type one handed with one finger and dont have any thumbs.

May take 10 - 15 mins over an industry standard adsl or over cable internet connection then maybe 5 minutes or less to download, then another 3 minutes to let apt-get install it all.

and thats all you need to do on debian or ubuntu or pussy. One command, all done, simple. Way better than Windows by a factor of 22 thousand, 4 hundred and thirty 3 point 2. Well that long ass number might be a little over stated but you all get my point

E P I C !!!

Windows 7 install and general system setup with everything you need = 1 day.

A Live Linux OS with apt-get: 20 mins to half an hour for a novice, a newbie may require an hour.

Ok people im taking a few days off, to catch up on sleep and to destress, get my mind right. Silly freaking strange cant remember writing some posts on forums and wondering what the f*** is up.

this isnt as bad as it sounds, this kinda thing happens when you dont sleep for 3 or 4 days at a time. Dream and reality kinda merge. I even quoted someone saying something in reponse to one of my posts and he didnt even write comment, it never existed.

so, this is a wake up call. More sleep, get myself sorted and come back fresh and rested and not crazy.

ive been doing this development thing for years now and i still have no idea what is a sustainable work load and what is not. I also say the same thing over and over again in a loop when i get this tired and i can see this was happening recent when i read back on my posts.

anyway, not to worry, im fine, this is a pre existing condition that i have been managing for many years and its not like i just went crazy or had a breakdown or anything. Its just sleep deprivation. I code, then cant get it out my head, i think instead of sleep and boom, right back here again telling everyone im taking time off for like the 3rd time since this thread started.

ok im rambling, ill see you all round in a few days
keep you pussy cats stored safely on shelves and make sure thay have pleanty of water along with the dried cat food. Remember to pick them up, cuddle them pat them and play with them for atleast 15 mins a day.

Posted: Thu 14 Feb 2013, 08:50 Post subject:
Im asking for help and a favourSubject description: Please list all the apps you use on your Linux.

ok one more post before my 3 day sleep holiday or whatever.

As ive said many times, i have no idea how normal people use a computer.

Over the next few days i wont be checking the forum but there is something i want to ask the Puppy/ Pussy community to do for me.

I need to know exactly what apps you use. Be selfish, post here what you want in an awesome and capable out of the box OOTB Pussy solution. Pussy is still in development and application selection in a standard Pussy is still something i am experimenting with.

If you have the time please post here all the apps you expect to be in an awesome OOTB Pussy. There is 10 different apps for everything, choosing the best one of the 10 is the real trick.

Pussy is for this community, its not advertised anywhere else. I want to include all the apps that YOU want, YOU being anyone who is remotely interested in Puppy and Pussy.

Now that the skeleton base ISO is finished the next thing for me to do is install all the apps/ desktop/ networking stuff etc.

It would be really helpful to me if in 3 days time or so i come back to this thread and some people have listed all the apps they use.

a source of easily addable apps can be searched and found at:

http://packages.debian.org and select "testing" or "wheezy" to do your searches.

Pussy doesnt HAVE to stick to the debian repos, in the old pussy some apps where installed statically in their own folders. So if you favorite app isnt in the debian repos but can be download from some other site, then please tell me the app and maybe the site.

Like i said, be selfish. If you dont use an office suite then dont feel you have to say that you want openoffice or freeoffice or whatever. Please dont feel like you have to mention an office package just because every other OS has one or you are catering for the needs of others. Please just list the apps you wanna use, and screw everyone else. This information it critical for the next step of developing the new pussy. I simply are not familiar with newer packages and i dont have much of an idea what new fancy things are out there.

List YOUR apps, as this OS if for YOU. A DVD sized Pussy has room enough on the DVD to include ANYTHING you want in Pussy.

Example. DVD is 4GB or so in size, apps are installed in the OS and then compressed in a squashfs file. Squashfs compression is so much that it is completely reasonable to actually have 10 to 15 or maybe even 20GB of actual OS storage space to use all on a 4GB DVD.

I dont want Pussy to just include "general generic application that every other OS has but no one ever uses" so being very average and mediocre you can please the most amount of people a little bit.

I want Pussy to be the opposite of this. I want to make the Pussy community 100% happy and screw everyone else.

Pussy told me today that he doesnt want to please a million average users only 50% , he told me that he wants to please a lesser group 100% and he doesnt want crappy apps that where chosen because they are the smallest to fit on the ISO and only offer mediocre useability that force you to install something that is actually useful. Pussy want to please you all with a true ultimate OOTB experience that has everything in it to begin with.
Pussy also came home drunk and smacked me around a bit and then told me he wants WINE in the OS, so if there is free Windows apps that run on WINE that anyone wants to use and its not available in Linux there is no problem. if your favorite app only made for Windows there is no shame in setting it up to use WINE

i know all these different apps will use a bit more ram,especially network related apps that are running all the time in the background etc, or a bluetooth app that just sits there in RAM until it detects a bluetooth device.

The trick here is edit the start routine, All the RAM hog apps like that can be removed from the boot sequence in the catroll-panel.
Large disk usage of an OS doesnt equate to lower performance or higher RAM usage. The only thing that really matters is how many programs/ apps/ daemons you have loaded/ running in RAM. Clicking on a simple catroll-panel will permanently disable the things you dont need, and if your using persistence or full HDD install, you can uninstall the these apps from the OS permanently with the click of a mouse. I think all the silly bluetooth stuff will be enabled and work on first boot, so people can connect their device immediately and it just works. For an OOTB experience that makes sense and the user can disable if the like. I think its better than not having these kind of RAM hog apps disabled so the user trying to connect his blueteeth doesnt have to hunt around or look online or go to a irc chat room to ask people how to enable blootoof.

I want every app you can fit in. I want both Libreoffice AND Freeoffice2012 because they both appeal to different users. I also want Dillo, and Seamonkey, and Opera and QTWeb browser; but I want the lightweight ones to be in a separate submenu.

This would be a useful feature for a distro intended to be run live, because lets face it, the user will be trialling Pussy on all sorts of hardware with widely differing specs. If there is a separate menu for apps known to be lightweight (and therefore having fewer features perhaps) it would enhance the useability on some machines. No point waiting 2 hours for Libreoffice to load because you already know that there is a quick alternative in the "lightweight" submenu.

Maybe users could suggest their favourite fully featured heavyweight apps and also a separate list of lightweight stuff? Here's mine:

Posted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 19:52 Post subject:
Re: Im asking for help and a favourSubject description: Please list all the apps you use on your Linux.

sickgut wrote:

Example. DVD is 4GB or so in size, apps are installed in the OS and then compressed in a squashfs file. Squashfs compression is so much that it is completely reasonable to actually have 10 to 15 or maybe even 20GB of actual OS storage space to use all on a 4GB DVD.

If you manage to get a SFS file to work over 600 mb... please let me know what you've done to make it work. I find that after about 500~600mb in a single SFS... md5 sums for the files when expanded tend to start to fail hash check.
I havent looked into the problem much... because Ive only dealt with it a few times here or there... but if you're able to find it and resolve it, I'd be interested in how you did it.

btw... how exactly are you going to manage the boot time to load everything into ram? loading a 4gb dvd into ram is going to be painfully slow. And running from a DVD is painfully slow as well. most dvd players max out at just over 16mbit/s read rate. So for a 4gb dvd... you're looking at over half an hour load time. As for using lots of SFS files, have you worked any speed benchmarks for loading, say 16gb, into a layered file system? I dont know if anyone's attempted it before, so I'm curious.

Or are you planning on pussy being a strict 'install to HD' release, thus forgoing the above speed issues?

Posted: Sat 16 Feb 2013, 04:14 Post subject:
Re: Im asking for help and a favourSubject description: Please list all the apps you use on your Linux.

Q5sys wrote:

sickgut wrote:

Example. DVD is 4GB or so in size, apps are installed in the OS and then compressed in a squashfs file. Squashfs compression is so much that it is completely reasonable to actually have 10 to 15 or maybe even 20GB of actual OS storage space to use all on a 4GB DVD.

If you manage to get a SFS file to work over 600 mb... please let me know what you've done to make it work. I find that after about 500~600mb in a single SFS... md5 sums for the files when expanded tend to start to fail hash check.
I havent looked into the problem much... because Ive only dealt with it a few times here or there... but if you're able to find it and resolve it, I'd be interested in how you did it.

btw... how exactly are you going to manage the boot time to load everything into ram? loading a 4gb dvd into ram is going to be painfully slow. And running from a DVD is painfully slow as well. most dvd players max out at just over 16mbit/s read rate. So for a 4gb dvd... you're looking at over half an hour load time. As for using lots of SFS files, have you worked any speed benchmarks for loading, say 16gb, into a layered file system? I dont know if anyone's attempted it before, so I'm curious.

Or are you planning on pussy being a strict 'install to HD' release, thus forgoing the above speed issues?

Ah huh, you make a good point and what you are asking about is very well explained and definately warrants a good explanation. Thanks for posting your question.

Running from RAM is a secondary thing in Pussy. Ofcause, it doesnt matter how fast your computer is, 4gb to copy to RAM is just plain stupid. However, it will be an option in the boot sequence for "why the hell not-ess".

100mb or 200mb copy to RAM is painless. 600MB is a pain. 4GB is like grinding your blueteef down a chalk board so the scratching sound gets o your nerves and you have terrible teeth pain with permanent damage.
I dont think Pussy can even live that long, even with a Powerful RADAR treatment with magnets, a wizard and stem cells.

The only reason anyone would want to do that is if you only have 1 DVD and you have 8GB of RAM or more and you are at your friends house and you want to show him how the OS works on his other 3 computers too.

In early to mid 2000's DSL and Puppy took the world by storm. 128MB RAM with 400mhz CPU was common. And if you where awesome enough to have 256MB RAM then copy to RAM is great, because once its loaded up there is no HDD slowing everything down. And HDD's and USB sticks where small and slow. RAM was fast, always has been. Even these days the fastest SSD has way more seek time than very old EDO 4MB RAM. HDD access is measured in milli seconds, RAM is nano seconds, even very old RAM.

It makes sense to load all your OS to RAM if you have double the recommended RAM required to run these 2 OSes.

But things have changed since 2006. USB sticks with USB version 3.0 are so fast and once you have clicked your mouse around your screen for a minute or two, so much information has been cached into RAM already, way more than what a computer could do in 2006. This setup is so fast, that the 20 or 30 seconds needed to copy to RAM from a frugal HDD install is just wasted time. Old Pussy could boot to the login screen in less than 11 seconds and your up and running. However using copy to RAM on Pussy Xtra which is a full sized CDROM ISO, is just a minute or 40 seconds wasted time and the performance increase over simply running the OS from a USB stick with USB 2.0 that is 4GB in size or a frugal HDD install this makes not real difference to the user experience. You boot into the OS quicker with no copy to RAM, and once you are booted into the OS, all you have done is waste 600MB of your RAM and there is no noticable difference in speed once your all loaded up and ready.

However, yes, DVD and CDROMs arent anywhere near as fast as USB or HDD. Here, if you do use copy to RAM, it will be faster once you are loaded. Live CDROM or DVD is not a real option for permanent you, it is a complete option in that it does everything right, but it is slow.

When i was developing the last version of Pussy, i mainly just used a Live CDROM at my neibours house when i went there for dinner and used his computer while everyone else either watched DVD's or played online FPS with me but i would always have an hour or two to spend on Pussy deving.

CDROM and DVD is an easy peasy newbie solution for using a computer without damaging anything. And using a USB stick that is the save file means that everything is saved and safe. For me, because i am patient i didnt care about the slower boot times etc, also i would copy the disk 4 times and everyone would load up Pussy with me when we played games. No save file, just running from the DVD or CDROM. Assault cube was the FPS game included in Pussy and we played online like that for months.
When compared to playing games on a Playstation 2, the load times arent anything to complain about and everything was guaranteed to work as we all had the same version of everything. These where all Windows computers and they had no interest in linux at all (half of them could even read, so you get my drift here, Tasmania isnt New York, you dont even need to finish highschool to work in the mines here and you get paid more than a high end IT guy) and it was still easy, click on the blood splattered icon in the middle of the screen, BOOM. Game on.

Live CDROM/ DVD is clean, safe and practical, excellent for Lan Parties as you know it will all work and if it doesnt just reboot. You cant damage the system no matter what you do. Its also an excellent way to preview the OS and for me, it was an excellent way to develop the OS when moving from computer to computer. But, we never used copy to RAM. It would actually add to the amount of time you could fire up Assault Cube by a fair margin.

Maybe DVD and data transfer speeds will be something different in 8 years time (anyone have an idea how fast bluray is when running Pussy Blueray edition? I have no idea. Will wait and see.)

So in summary:

1) copy to RAM is a feature that will be available for all Pussies large and small and it will work better than last Pussy and you can get it to only load one squashfs, not the entire partition or live media as with old Pussy.

2) Its simply not practical to use copy to RAM on Pussy DVD. We dont expect people to do this. A CDROM ISO isnt too bad however and if you have one CDROM and 4 computers you need to run that day, then copy to ram on all four will probably only add 10 or 15 so minutes to your 4 computers booting up. Pussy server should load into RAM very quickly.

3) I dont really care about loading into RAM much, its not something i would bother to improve and i will just take what the debian live people have setup. With full featured Pussy OSes that have everything in them (ie 600MB CDROM ISO) then copy to RAM starts to drag on a bit. Best to just run off of the HDD or USB stick. CDROM/ DVD is just to preview or install the OS. Or to use other peoples computers without them getting mad at you. However, i run Live CDROM and DVD most the time just coz i feel like a bad ass using my own Live OS.

4) The squashfs over 4G in size is something of a concern when using FAT32 USB sticks or frugal installs etc. Making working squashfs files that are 4GB on an NTFS or EXT2,3,4 partition is trouble free. Also, i know everyone hates me for this but i dont really care about MD5 SUMS. If it dont work for you downloading, message me, email me or even post here and ill send you a free Pussy DVD or CDROM. No questions asked.

When this new Pussy is finished ill be getting some actual paper manuals printed. And create a box set that includes the CDROM, a 8GB USB stick and a DVDROM and a few Post cards and stickers, this will be available to purchase from the website for like $20 and is pretty much my cost. Users who buy one of these kits will also have a reference number they can redeem for free one on one tech advice with me via email or skype or the chatroom that will kinda have some game elements to it on the website or support icon on the desktop like Puppy has or used to have. Users will get to talk to sickgut himself about any prob and ill help best i can.

(the game stuff tends to keep people calm while they wait for people to reply to stuff.)

HDD install that is not live (the installer itself rips the guts out of the live system at the end of install) is not a good thing for developers, who want to make special OS containing squashfs, it wont work. Static installed single app squashfs will still work. This sets up all the GRUB dual boot stuff as well as any other leading Linux brand. I wont ever use this, but many many people will. Especially newbies, as the install is freakishly simple. This HDD install will boot and use only like 48MB or something of RAM as the Live system takes up atleast 50 or MB of RAM. Low RAM computers with say 10GB HDD space will love this. But the DVD HDD install will probably nees 15GB space or 20GB to make it usable so you can actually save all your stuff for a year or so.

Sorry for the over long reply but i am not just addressing you, im kinda recounting the whole thing for everyone on the forum who comes here.

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