I was talking to someone in the chat room the other night and I made the remark that I can't afford date anyone right now. The femme I was talking to asked me why I feel that it takes money, and for me it comes down to how I treat a femme on a date.

For *ME*, it takes money to date a femme properly. No, I would never take a femme to McDonald's for a date. I may not take her to the fanciest place for dinner, but it should be nice. 60$ is not an unreasonable amount to spend on a nice meal with a girl. Then there is all the grooming. A fresh haircut every 2 weeks; getting a car wash before each date because who wants to be picked up in a dirty car??; Having freshly cleaned and pressed clothes that are dress-casual to dressy. (Jeans are fine if you have a dress shirt and tie to go with them.) And, bring her a small gift with each date, usually flowers, but it could be something else that she likes, such as candy or something else. Buy her drinks if you are at a bar.

Things that don't cost money but are essential to me are: Be freshly showered before each date! Open every door for her; pull out her chair for her; allow her to order her food first; ask her first if you want to hold her hand or kiss her (that's just good manners). If you like how she looks or her smile or how she smells or the things that she says, or wears, then tell her. Let her talk about herself, and don't dominate the conversation with things about you. Don't use a lot of swear words. Don't talk about your exes!! Don't be in a rush to get into bed; try to get to know her, who she is and what she is like. Listen to her. Ask her what kind of things she enjoys doing, what kind of food she likes, etc. so if she agrees to another date, you can plan your next date around things she enjoys. Don't do the same thing every single date - try to plan a variety of activities. Thank her for spending time with you, and if you really like her and want to see her again, don't wait more than 2 days to call her. Don't call her the very next day, either. Give room, but not too much room. Don't blow up her phone with text messages either, but saying you had a good time is important.

The person I was discussing this with said she had never been treated this way on a date, and I was kind of surprised. She told me I should start a thread about dating, so here it is:

Femmes, how do you like to be treated on a date? I think all of us people on the masculine spectrum should know what you ladies would like and what you think is important. I know not all femmes are the same and like the exact same things, so having as much feed back as possible is really appreciated! Also, some feed back about what NOT to do would be helpful too! Stories about both good dates and bad ones are welcome! I personally would really like to know how to be a better date so that someday, if I ever can afford to date again, I can do it better. Thanks in advance!

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It doesn't cost much to prepare a nice picnic lunch on the beach or at a park.

If its flowers you can not afford there are some very nice flowers you can pick for her along the way.

I can wash my own car

My clothes I can iron myself also

Wala ..Instant date

Thats a great start Guy!!! Picked flowers are much better it shows effort and thought! Picnic lunches are great!! and depending on where the picnic will be and if you have 4X4 the vehicle doesnt really have to be clean either, Hit the lake bank, Go MUDDIN!!! That makes for a super Southern date!!

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If I've had an evening of intelligent conversation, laughs, and a kind of connection, that's a great date. I don't care if it's walking in the park; if I like you, time is what's important.

The right person could take me for a Big Mac, and in fact I'd rather have a Big Mac with someone I kind of loved than a nice meal with so-so. A "gift" should be something that says you've been paying attention. I personally don't enjoy getting cut flowers-take me to a garden, instead, and leave them in the ground. The right person could bring me a bag of M&M's wrapped in a ribbon, and that would be more than any trinket.

Cleanliness of person and vehicle, that I can get behind. Make like you're putting some pride in yourself, and making an effort for me.

It's just me, but I don't like to be asked if you can hold my hand or kiss me. The answer will be no. If things are going well, go for it . But that's just me. I'm not sure where I am on pulling out chairs and opening doors, ordering first-I must be strange, but that's never flipped my switch. Just act naturally-if you're ready to order first, order.

Show me who you are. Tell me about yourself.

I guess I don't want to be treated like "the femme" or "a lady". I mean, don't be rude and crude, of course, but just treat me as you would like to be treated. Just hold my hand and be my friend.

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The odds of going to the store for a loaf of bread and coming out with only a loaf of bread are three billion to one. ~Erma Bombeck

respect comes to mind....before during and after a date is important...

the grooming because you have taken the time to do this will be noticed, because i too will have taken the time to groom....

for me a picnic in the park /lake / ocean would be ideal this is just as intimate a setting as dinner perhaps less stuffy....

flowers if you have taken the time to find out said favorite flower then i would think either purchased and or hand picked would be good however not necessary....

but then again...what the hell do i know? the word "date" has me running for cover...the word itslef makes me feel all stuffy and like i would need to be something or someone im not....put on a pretense of something i just cant do or beleive in....

based on above paragraph i think dating for me would have to entail some sort of activity outside and or indoors however no movies and please no way too expensive restaurants....just because im looking out for your pocket book...this economy you got to get creative in your dating ....

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I agree...not all dates have to be about the $$ spent, BUT is about the quality time spent...paying attention to her, being courteous, engaging, having impeccable manners, respect for her,(hygiene, neat clothes, etc should always be....whether on a date or not). I agree with the hand holding and/or kiss. Feel her...actually "feel" if there is chemistry...if so, go for it. A nice kiss......and when walking, hold her hand...believe me, you WILL know if she is into you or not! A hand at the small of her back, open doors, and pick a single rose...or a spring boquet. Like one of the posters said, a bag of M & M's, wrapped with a ribbon....says so much (provided she likes M & M's) it isn't about the money spent, it is the thoughts and sincerety behind the date, gift, flower...the fact you put EFFORT and thought into...tailored it specifically to HER! Compliments go a long way! I love to cook, and if she likes, I am amenable to making a nice dinner at home...either at my place or at hers...AND I am very fond of making a nice picnic lunch...OR pick up a "take out" picnic...maybe sushi, strawberries, a bottle of wine...a book of poems to read to her...a blanket..stretch out and look at the clouds...see what shapes you can find....OR a picnic on the beach...lying on the warm sand....watching the sun set...have a bottle of bubbles, or a kite...ENJOY the endeavor....tailored for the two of you....HAVE FUN! ENJOY the time...this is just MHO....anything done with thought and sincerety is always great!!!!

Hmmmm...I think we are missing the focus here: it is about what the femmes would like.

OK, I have written and erased three times. Here it is if it were a first date: I want to be picked up from my front door; don't blow your horn, it does not make me want to run out the door. I want there to be a bit of nervousness, excitement between us because the unknown can happen. I want to look you in the eyes and know that I am safe. I want you to extend your hand as I go to step over the threshold of my door. As we walk together to your car, bend your arm and put my hand there. Open the car door, and offer your hand again. Please note that if your side of the car is locked, I will lean over and unlock it. This is all before the car is even started...My point being, treat me like I am lady, and allow me to treat you like a Gentleman. That is the best gift you can ever offer me.

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Drew, that's a given on how a every woman should be treated in daily life. Great thread...

For me, Im not gonna stop treating a femme right cause weve been on several dates. I want each and every time I take her out to be special. If we end of "dating" and its progressed into a relationship, well the same things I did to "GET HER" are the same things Im gonna do and more once she is mine. It a proven fact. If you treat a woman like a Queen she will treat you like her King every time.

Its sad to think there are femmes out there who dont know what its like to be properly courted.

Just my two cents.

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*First, you're right. Clean yourself, your clothes, and the car. If there's even a scintilla of a chance that I'm coming in later on, clean your home.

*Don't pull up into the driveway and honk. I DO want you to come to the door. That's just good manners, date or not.

*I do like an aforementioned personal gift-not a lot of $, but just something that says "I noticed this and thought you'd like it". A friend of mine, whom I'm not even dating, once surprised me with an angel she saw in a store window, and remembered that I love angels, which was just a passing comment. That meant a lot.

*I love nicely flowing conversation; if it's hard to get you talking, that gets awkward.

*Don't blast music or drive like a maniac (have had both)

*Who doesn't like compliments?

*Be honest about your table manners and correct accordingly. This is something I am sticky on.

*Have some conversation topics ready to go, especially on a first date. I for one enjoy controversial topics as long as it doesn't go into "well, you're all wrong" territory.

*I love to finish a date outdoors-a walk in the park, something like that.

That's about it. I don't want to be on a pedestal or the queen. Take me out as you would go out with a friend, because that's what I am, first and foremost.

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The odds of going to the store for a loaf of bread and coming out with only a loaf of bread are three billion to one. ~Erma Bombeck

The best dates I've had, regardless of where we've gone, what we've eaten or how much money was spent have had the following qualities...

~My Date's Attention - I feel like I have the attention of my date, no sense of being 'tuned out'.

~Effort - For people I've dated for whom money is not a concern, sometimes coming up with a date idea that does NOT cost money is a huge effort (for example). I just love that feeling that the person I am on a date with has made some sort of unique effort or put energy into the date or the idea of the date - especially if that effort specifically addresses something that they know about me or have learned as we've begun getting to know each other. I find that more creative date ideas are the most memorable, exciting, and truly enjoyable for me.

~Something pretty - Sometimes it's a view. Sometimes it's candles on the table or in the room, or a nearby fireplace. Sometimes it's a sunset. Sometimes it's flowers. Sometimes it's just a nice setting.

~Play - And I mean this in the most innocent of ways (honestly). For me, some element of play is really fantastic on a date. Maybe the other person has a naturally playful personality and says things that make me laugh/giggle, or maybe it's more literal and we play a game of pool, cards, mini golf, or whatever. I love an element of play on a date.

~My Date was comfortable! - Sometimes, with all the energy put into making the other person comfortable/happy or impressing them, one ends up sacrificing their own needs or stepping too far outside their own comfort zones. If you pick a date that you know you'll enjoy too, you're more likely to be relaxed and comfortable - which will put your date at ease! If you're super uncomfortable at fancy restaurants (for example) don't try to impress your date by taking them to one - pick something that you know you can enjoy too. Trust me, if you're uncomfortable - your date will be, too.

One of my favourite dates, was when Sparx surprised me on a weekday at my office - after she'd learned I'd been having a really crummy day. She'd snuck a picnic basket into my car, so when we went to get in the car and head home, She suggested instead that we head to our favourite sunset-gazing spot and have dinner. The really memorable part was that she had packed bread (that she'd baked fresh that day) and all the fixings for sandwiches. The reason she hadn't pre-assembled the sandwiches and had, instead, packed condiments and fixings into individual containers and baggies, was because she knows that I have this thing.... where I like sandwiches to be very very fresh when I eat them... you'll never see me buying a premade sandwich from the deli section -ew. She even thought to pack a side dish and beverages. It was a lovely meal made all the more lovely by the thought, energy, and effort she'd put into making it perfect. And, after we'd watched the sun go down, she walked me to the fancy restaurant in the same park to get coffee and dessert. It was such a lovely and memorable evening.

A couple of cigarettes, a cup of coffee and a little bit of conversation. You and me and five bucks.

I think flowers are a horrible gift. So wasteful. They die and you throw them away. Plus they are super unoriginal. I'd much rather the person on the other end of the date put that money into a gift card for a local coffee place. Or sent me a mix of their 10 favourite songs on itunes. Or even got me a keychain - I love keychains. I mean if you know her well enough to go on a date with her, SURELY you know her well enough to have some sort of an idea of what her interests are.

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I have to say, though, there is no formula except sincerity. Some femmes like this, but not that. Some want to be courted, others want to be friends. Seems like we all want our date to be sincere.

And that's really the thing, isn't it? Femmes are not some monochromatic alien beings. We're not so freakishly bizzare and difficult to understand that it is necessary to figure out the mysterious formula for making us happy. We're just people, for crissakes. And because we're people, there are no two of us who are alike or who want/require the exact same things.

Can you imagine if I insisted upon presenting every Butch I've ever met with a toolbelt on her birthday? I'd look like such a jackass! Particularly if that Butch is more interested in, for example, reading or gardening than they are in tools.

Oh well.

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First and foremost....Turn off your cell phone....be present..be in the moment...as much as I enjoy romance...I personally love spontaneity and originality...smell good, and look good enough to munch on.... Save the flowers, they die, I'd rather be taken to where flowers live....

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Don't assume she expects you to pay. I was actually a stickler on this and insisted on paying for my own dinner/movie/etc. If there were more dates, then I negotiated that we would take turns or that "Special Dinners" like Birthday's, would be paid for by the non-birthday person.

For me, it's because I am independent and didn't want to feel like I owed them anything more than a cordial "Goodnight" if there wasn't any chemistry. This misnomer that The Butch Pays For Everything, is bullshit (in my opinion). I'm an adult, if I like someone, it's not because they buy me anything.

People should treat each other well on dates. Good hygiene, put the phones away and enjoy each others company.

Does this make me sound unromantic and rigid? It worked just fine for me back in the day. If someone got bent because I wouldn't let them pay my way, that indicated they would not be a good match. And I did have a couple of people actually get angry about it. Ick.

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First and most importantly, I don't think you can assume anything about how someone wants to be treated on a date, simply because of their gender.

I think for a date to go well, the natural flow has to happen, between the people. For example, the first date my wife took me on, she cycled to my house at 8am, right after her shift at the hospital to take me out to Hampstead Heath's women's pond to go swimming. We sat on my bead and she brought a bottle of reasonably priced but nice sparkling wine (southafrican, I think probably about £7) with some smoked salmon ends (cheap. 80 pence) and some crusty rolls (40 pence each. So champers breckfast for two, in bed = £8.60, less than a meal at Mc Donlads).

we then has some leisurely sex and went to the pond for a summer afternoon swim and a long talk with lots of laughing.

She came back home with me and I cooked her a lovely dinner.

That's not a typical date (we'd known each other a monht before sleeping together and we had finally gone home with each other after she asked if I was going to a club night in soho that night - that wasn't a date, I was already going and she had mates with her)

I'm glad we slept together before dating. It made everything a hell of a lot easier in terms of what we could do on a date. And frankly, I'd rather have a picnic than a restaurant, a swim in a pond in stead of theater, a free museum jaunt and a bicycle ride together along the marshes than a drive to some soiree/gallery opening with beer at £4 a bottle.

SO she was perfect for me. The first night I met her I actually bought her the beer after a certain point because she had just graduated as a student and had run out of cash. We were at a squat rave party so it was only £1 a can. Neither of us cared who paid for what, we were so enamoured by each other.

I love being treated and spoiled and so does she. She loves blowing her money on me if she ever has any (which is now half mine anyway and vice versa because we only have a single bank account) and I love buying stuff for her. But we don't have cash at the moment so she spoils me by doing other things. Like doing all the housework when I'm exhausted, instead of half. Pouring me a bath with oils and candles. letting me pick the movie (and it being a period drama, which she tolerates when she's being indulgent), giving me a massage.

And fuck me, do I ever appreciate those things!!!

The dates she takes me on now always makes me feel like I'm her Beloved no matter what £ is involved or not. because she's thought about *me* - what would barb like? before taking me on one. I do the same for her when I take her on one.

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