Is Allah a Terrorist Too?

In some earthquakes and other natural disasters where houses were destroyed, occasionally a few mosques were still standing. Countless Muslim sites have reproduced these pictures claiming they are miracles of Allah

A mosque in Turkey standing after an earth quake where other buildings are destroyed.

A mosque not destroyed in the earthquake in Turkey

The reason these mosques have not been destroyed is not due to any miracle. It’s because they were built better. Generally, people put a lot of love and effort when building their place of worship. This is a special place and they don’t tend to cheat or economize. As the result mosques, churches and temples are more lasting than ordinary houses.

However, even these buildings tend to get destroyed in stronger earthquakes, as the following pictures show.

Assuming these residences were destroyed by Allah while he saved the mosques, wouldn’t that make Allah a terrorist? Why would a sane god do such thing to innocent people and destroy so many lives, including those of children?

In their eagerness to attribute phony miracles to Allah Muslims incriminate him further and make of him a ruthless terrorist.

The truth is that God has nothing to do with any natural disaster. Disasters, despite their name, are not “acts of God.” They are acts of nature. Mother Earth lives her own life. She is not aware of our existence. If we stand in her way we get hurt. No one sends earthquakes and no one can save us from them, except ourselves.

Mosques also get destroyed.

A Muslim offers prayers at a Fathur Rahman mosque, destroyed by an earthquake in Solok, Sumatra, Indonesia 2007.

Residents gather outside a mosque damaged by a powerful earthquake at Cisaat village, West Java September 2, 2009.

Balakot Mosque in Pakistan was completely destroyed in 2006 Earthquake

MUZAFFARABAD, PAKISTAN-OCTOBER 28: Pakistani men pray during friday prayer at the Jama Haman Wali mosque which was destroyed by the earthquake in Muzaffarabad, Pakistan controlled Kashmir on October 28,2005

Anau Mosque - destroyed in 1948 earthquake

Imam of the Mosque in Baluchistan shows how his Mosque was destroyed by earthquake. At that time I was trying to go to offer prayer at 3:30am. At exactly that time everything started shaking and I heard the wall of Mosque fall down.

A displaced family wash themselves in front of the ruins of a destroyed mosque during rescue operations on March 30, 2005 in Nias, Indonesia. An earthquake measuring 8.5 on the Richter scale hit the South East Asian region of Sumatra on March 28 and reportedly lasted 2 minutes. The island of Nias off the coast of Sumatra was the hardest hit with the death toll estimated at two thousand people.

No Responses

//you can get oil from Russia if you didn't know anywaaaay //
Look at the map again. Only a fool will make a pipeline from Russia to Continental Europe that goes through Afghanistan. You keep on proving the obvious, that you know nothing about Geography or History and in fact even about Islam. Moreover if somebody has to target Russian oil, they will simply develop a good relationship with Russia just as they have developed a good working relationship the Middle East oil rich countries. I mean why will America destroy its own building, kill its own people and then hope that Bin Laden will hide in Afghanistan and then wage an expensive (and to a great extent hopeless) war doing further damage to its Army and reputation with the intention of making an oil pipeline from Russia to Western Europe???? America isn't even the ultimate beneficiary of the oil, which if we were to believe you, will be delivered to Europe!!! It is this lack of logical thinking that Islam fosters and Muslim minds lap up!!!!

//your looser kids game of playing the winner in the back of others//
Back of others? Hardly. I am responding back to your comment. You are not the sole reader. This is a public forum and I am sure there are more people reading this than us two. If you don't want to or are incapable of responding back, DON'T RESPOND.

//if i had time i will teach you what does Politics mean//
On the contrary please teach yourself world history, religious philosophies, languages etc. Your English is awful and if you do get some time please brush it up.

//because i know that you know that you aren't sure about your informations//
I am very sure about my information. Now that you say so, sample this:
1. This thread started with your suspecting Grace's opinion that Muhammad didn't marry a 6 year old. Proved wrong when she brought a Sahi Hadith from Bukhari.
2. You suggested that she might have attained puberty at 6 (or 9) years of age. However you couldn't prove it. The examples you brought were about kids who had an abnormality called Precocious Puberty. But you say Aisha wasn't abnormal. Also these kids have actually become pregnant which proved thatthey had attained puberty. Not so for Aisha though. So you were proved wrong again.
3. On being suggested a possible escape from the situation above that Muhammad might have been impotent during this phase of his life, you talked about the 7th Arabs being healthy and living till 100. However Muhammad lived till 62, and complained of weakness, headache and body pain so severe that he was bed-ridden and died. You couldn't give a good honest reply to this problem either.
4. You talked about Maria being a wife of Muhammad, but were proved otherwise. Something you accepted later.
5. You talked about only three marriages desired by Muhammad. But he married a dozen times and kept 4 concubines. A prove of his being a womanizer.
6. You brought a Quranic verse to suggest that Muhammad had only a limited number of marriages authorized, but a look into Tafsir Ibn kathir proved that : a) This verse has been abrogated by another verse, b) The explanation of this verse in itself actually allows Muhammad to marry as many times as he desired. So you were proved wrong again.
And I can give several more points we have touched here, but I will end with this point:
7. You said America purposefully destroyed WTC so that it can attack Afghanistan and the Europeans can make an oil pipeline running from Russia to Europe through Afghanistan. Even a primary school student who had some idea of the world map can see the flaws in this argument. All you could do was to escape from this debate:-)

//you will see in the future not now what does ISLAM mean //
No no, we already know what Islam means.

//and how much Muslims are brave//
We have already seen. And we are seeing it in Palestine and how the other Arab countries are behaving with regards to this aggression from Israel.

@TnKuK
/Oh realy how much did you done the aSTRA projection zero time or minuce one time ?/
Oh!! lady why you need Astral Projection ,can't you go for simple spiritual discipline?–those provide you full of wisdom .Like don't kill animal — that too in a cruel way of HALAL or simply don't outrage the modesty of 6 year old innocent kid in the name of marriage or killing the father ,husband (in a cruel way ) and her children and then raping her or attacking the Jews during night when they are in the deep sleep and capturing them and later in the whole day cutting their heads ………………..
I repeat my earlier statement –you Muslims are wasting the oxygen here on earth.You know nothing more than BS Islam ,the thug prophet and his altar ego Allah (the stupid pimp) Palestine and whole of Gaza belongs to Israel ,this is the land exclusively belong to Jews right from the day's of Moses ,it was their promised land.You Muslims are invaders.Don't try to miscalculate the Israelis ,if they wish ,you will not be their to behold the next days sun rise.
/ i'm not interrested in Buddhisme because i had an experiance and you feel dirty and it have a relation with Satan/
You need not interest in Buddhism!! so relax .Buddhism belongs to intellectual class– who can distinguish what is right and what is stupid !. Why westerners are embracing Buddhism and Hinduism ,because they are intelligent–they want to make progress in spirituality as well to make this world violence free.The only hurdle is your Islam ?,which is the 'thorn in the flash' of world peace. Just go to these links and see what is real spirituality stands for :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll_uR8NkaFc:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHYUzwHnaCY:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9B1LIayIQI
I hope you will come out of cartoon fantasy and get some insight into real spirituality .Good bye :p

@Sakat
Oh realy how much did you done the aSTRA projection zero time or minuce one time ? and how is your Chakra 100% open or -300 closed ( certenely the heart one ) ? hah ? you think that because you are a Buddhist you know more than me about your religion ? you may know History more than me but in practice i have your double experiance certenely in spiritual things i know it verry well and it's borring it have no sense it's just a wast of time in my opinion and i don't hate Jews i hate who kill Palestinian and Muslims and yes i know that you are the shoes of Jews yes i know and you admire terrorisme yes i know this too and you will see in the future what does Muslims intellect look like

I'm leaving i answerd just for your pleasure and it's the final one if God want anyway don't act the pro about Buddhisme because i have more power than you and many people when i was at 9 years old i was able to make a paper mouving and i was able to control my energy sense and i could send it to the place that i want and i learned by myself and it was easy and i tried many experiances and in the end when i was 14 years old i had an experiance of Islam and those magic stupid power were like a baby game but Islam had a wonderful spiritual feeling that kick out your buddhist manual of stanic power i don't care i was wasting my time it was only because of Cartoons magical powers anyway i was a kid and i'm not interrested in Buddhisme because i had an experiance and you feel dirty and it have a relation with Satan and he can steal your body while Astra projection …. bla bla bla anyway it's my last reply

I had a problem so i didn't supress my account yesterday and i thought that you are shameful –" and i hate this coward action of making yourself like honor dump -_-" you can get oil from Russia if you didn't know anywaaaay i'm not here for the debate and i don't care about your looser kids game of playing the winner in the back of others and make yourself sure that if i had time i will teach you what does Politics mean because i know what you ignore and in all ways every one stay by his side no one will change so i hate wasting time in things that will never change and say what you want because i know that you know that you aren't sure about your informations and ignore many things and don't want to accept the truth ……etc anyway you will see in the future not now what does ISLAM mean and how much Muslims are brave and be sure that the final win smile isn't like the middle one

@YnKuK
//really you thought that it was like that i wonder who is the fool //
You off course. As you proved again with your following comment.

// i said that they have posibilities to distroy those plains//
Yes, but only if they knew beforehand that the planes were being hijacked with the plans of ramming them in the buildings. It is not that the terrorists have come out with front page declarations on the previous days about their plans!!

//you think that the american army waited the whole crash to be done then it claim =_=" srry i'm not enought fool//
Well you are, as explained above.

//but remember Bin laden was fighting Army so how could him hit people from all the world so keep it off //
Bin Laden was fighting no Army. At least not in 2001.

//and you are sayin 20 and 30 and i don't know between every crash and were was American army waiting the next or Making the next //
And how would they know that there were more and which ones would be the next? Allah didn't declare it in Quran did he? As I said when the first one crashed everybody thought that this was a problem with air traffic controls. The first one crashed at 8:45 am, the next one at around 9. The third one was on a completely different route crashing into Pentagon at around 9:35 am and the fourth one was forced landed in Pennsylvania at 10 am or so when the passengers fought with the hijackers.

//Yes i don't believe because JAPAN is democratic too but it forbide Islamic migration so don't think //
Japan is a very thickly populated country which desists immigration of all kinds not just Muslim. There is no official line which prohibits only Muslim migration. The situation is also helped by the fact that in Japan nobody sponsors illegal immigration the way it is supported by the Bangladeshis and Pakistanis like say in Italy, Portugal, Spain and France. It is a very interesting lesson that Japan is teaching the rest of the world.

//they could use it for their interrest like Drugs in the past and it will be a good road for Oil to Europe //
Drugs is for smugglers. All western countries have policies AGAINST drugs. And now another exposition of foolishness. Take the map of World, and take a close look, especially at Central and East Asia. How do you think Afghanistan will be good 'road' for carrying OIL to Europe. Where will these oils coming from? Tibet? Utter Foolishness!!! At least think before you propose such things!!!

// you are wasting your time the truth is a truth even if you didn't like it //
Yes it is true that you are a fool and I am wasting my time to show you some logic.

//And goodbye don't open another debate because i won't answer because i will close my email so i can't get News from this website//
Good decision. I don't think you are capable enough to add anything positive. Your 'cover' of goody-goody Islam has now fallen and we know the real you. Anti-semitic, anti-democratic Muslim of the same ilk that forms groups like Hamas and ISIS.

@TnKuK
/ I know what is Yoga and bla bla bla about it because i was interrested by Yoga when i was young and in the end it's like magic and i hate it now and i had spiritual experiance also Riki and Tai-chi and Chi and chakra things and bla bla bla but it's not beneficial and anyone can do it you must have only a big imagination and i hate this living in your dreams and invisible and bla bla bla and it's not interresting i was interrested because i was young and i wanted magic power because i used to see them on cartoons -_-/
Oh! lady you know nothing and, even you take thousand more life–it is impossible for you Muslim to grasp it (your reply reminds me–it is like engaging debate with a kindergarten kid ,by a scholar). Therefore i am always saying you Muslims are here for wasting oxygen.You hate Jews–but let me remind you, we love Jews ,they have right to live like you and me.Unlike you, they are not wasting oxygen ,but contribute to the human progress intellectually .I have greatest admiration for Israel.It is the great friend of our country India.And if you think you will destroy Israel–that will be the greatest mistake of Muslims.Whole world will stand behind Israel,rock solid!!

@TnKuK
/ if a Human raped a Girl then Islam forbid Raping okay it's illigal okay whe you look at his look at his as a Human not according to his religion okay he did a mistake then he would be killed or i don't know but not killing all Muslims and torturing them ALL ALLL ALL why because of a Human crime it's not all Muslims fault and they all get out Buddhist and kill Muslims who are innocent including babies ?? why you would kill a baby ?? and kids ??/
What is your opinion about this http://www.dawn.com/news/1122143

//Nobody puts an army inside a passenger airliner. You are a fool to even suggest that. //
really you thought that it was like that i wonder who is the fool who thout this non-sence situation of putting army in a such plain who said this i said that they have posibilities to distroy those plains and you are saying by your hands that you saw it by your eyes LIVE on Tv and you think that the american army waited the whole crash to be done then it claim =_=" srry i'm not enought fool

And i know that Many civilian dies but remember Bin laden was fighting Army so how could him hit people from all the world so keep it off

and you are sayin 20 and 30 and i don't know between every crash and were was American army waiting the next or Making the next

Yes i don't believe because JAPAN is democratic too but it forbide Islamic migration so don't think

Look if you don't know Afghanistan is usefull for America and Russia sos top claiming that it have no benefits they could use it for their interrest like Drugs in the past and it will be a good road for Oil to Europe

// But you are a fool to believe what you are believing. /
This is your opinion and i don't care about it say what you want you are wasting your time the truth is a truth even if you didn't like it

And goodbye don't open another debate because i won't answer because i will close my email so i can't get News from this website

@TnKuK
//Ha ha do you think that America haven't a strong army//
Nobody puts an army inside a passenger airliner. You are a fool to even suggest that.

//Bin laden did this and he distroyed only places wich contain foreigners and the camera was there//
Again propaganda material. Who told you only foreigners were killed? Remember that there was also an attack on Pentagon where 55 military personal died along with 70 civilians. In the World Trade Center people from 90 countries died, but roughly 2200 of the 2606 victims were American citizens including 350 odd firefighters!!

//and the camera was there and it was HD waw ( Hd of 2001 )//
I saw the images live on TV unlike you who gets second hand reports. There were no video to start with and it is possible that fake videos have been created and circulated FOR THE FIRST HIT. But there were thousands of eye witnesses on lower Manhattan who SAW the planes hit the tower. Now the second plane hit a good 20 minutes after the first one and the TV channels were already on it. The second hit was therefore captured by quite a few news agencies, BBC, CNN, MSN et al. In fact my initial reaction was that this was a traffic control problem, but it was the second hit which first gave us the idea that it was something else, deliberate and well planned. We had 2 more incidents after 30 minute intervals. An attack on Pentagon and then another crash in Pennsylvania.

//why didn't the presiden't kicked out Muslims //
Because a democracy recognizes existence of religions separate from different political positions. That is the beauty of democracy but you won't understand. In fact just think why if the American were anti-Muslim under the sway of some Jewish group they have allowed Muslims to settle in the first place?

//and it was done to get the support from all the world//
For what? To attack Afghanistan? To get what? Afghanistan doesn't produce Oil or anything worth attacking for!!! As far as Oil rich countries in the Middle East is concerned America was and still is the largest importer of their oil. It doesn't make sense at all for America to attack Afghanistan for Oil. And do you have any evidence of what you are claiming other than anti-American canards?

// i'm not a fool to believe what you are believing //
But you are a fool to believe what you are believing.

Ha ha ha it's ISRAEL who is happy while killing civilian and Obama support it because he have good relations with it and all the other wester but to not be shameful they Must to do a humanity few words like a phone call to claim that they want Israel to stop and HAMAS is protecting civilian there is more than 1400 killed what do you want it to do hah ? Israel is playing with souls and Hamas wanted a peace time but ISRAEL didn't want it see by yourself and the wonderfullest is that they are killing them in their contry and Palestine and they claim to be the boss

// Isn't it surprising that while you think America and the West don't like the Muslims, most Muslims flock to these very countries!! How will you solve this paradox? //
Yes they go there and what is the problem they want to work and they want to change lifestyle and their contries are underdevelopement and also America must to accept Muslims because it get Petrol from Islamic and Arabic contries

They were wearing Buddhist clothes and BBC NEWS your western source said that it was Buddhist what do you want me to do ? and it was an old Butha wich was doing a speech about mUSLIMS what do you wnat more than this they kill them because they are Muslims i hate them and please keep your mouth closed they have no right to Burn Innocent people alive and kill them and hit them and torture them WHY because they are Muslims this is all including Police and you keep supporting them ?! i wonder how .;: i don't know

// How can they? Do you have the greatness of heart to accept them as your brother? No. You will participate in killing them. As you said you don't need them.//
LOOK islam don't allow killing person okay so keep it Shutted up and don't talk because if they went to Algeria WE DON'T CARE and there is who still in Algeria and they have their own cimetery and their own grand fathers and their Names are until now i know many Muslims with a Jewish Name okay so "OFF" and no one will kill them neverminde we are not like you and Buddhuist in Burma we are deffirent we are not a Hungry Gorilla

I leave this website don't talk about Burma again because i know with who you are and i break again this debate because it's a wast of time i talk in the air

I'm out of this i have nothing to respond i have a last word wich will come in the end Goodbye

Ha ha do you think that America haven't a strong army and Bin laden did this and he distroyed only places wich contain foreigners and the camera was there and it was HD waw ( Hd of 2001 ) and Bin laden have no proof that it was him and how could others from Bin laden group go to America and why didn't the presiden't kicked out Muslims ? i will tell you why because he know that it's not Bin Laden and it was done to get the support from all the world …..Anyway it's not my problem this 9/11 and i'm not a fool to believe what you are believing and also because i have a minde i use it and see by my vision and it's cleare the truth so say what you want i don't care and i told you that i will never force to believe me it's your life

See your friend who is saying that Muslims are wasting presiouse Oxygene then come to me okay and i won't keep talking in Politics because i know what you ignore i thought the the whole world knew but the reality is that i'm the only one and few people around the world anyway i don't need you to listen to the truth it's your choise if you want to be an ignorant

@TnKuK
//They said that it was a plane and it was not it was a 'missile' //
They not only said, they actually showed it happening!! Al-Jazeera showed Bin Laden claiming responsibility for it.

//and if you don't know then don't talk about it and it was a plot okay and i know it well //
It is now pretty clear that you are just a gullible fool who believes everything that the propagandist pass on to you be it the secret Jew elements causing distress to your governments or the 9/11 conspiracy theories. To you the Islamist are innocent, since to you the life of non-Muslims is worth nothing. In the vision of Islam others are the worst of creatures and deserve to die in the path of Allah.

@TnKuK
//as terrorist because they support killing of Kids in Palestine //
Nobody supports killing of kids in Palestine. Israel is being pushed by all countries from the West to ceasefire. On the other hand it is Hamas which is rejecting every peace initiative being forwarded by Egypt, for example. It is Hamas which is firing the missiles from school tops and from near hospitals provoking Israel to return fire by fire.

//Islamist kicked America then it's an enemy of the west so it's a terrorist i hate this it's injustice//
Isn't it surprising that while you think America and the West don't like the Muslims, most Muslims flock to these very countries!! How will you solve this paradox?

//whe you look at his look at his as a Human not according to his religion okay//
Ha ha. By the same logic, Buddhism prohibits violence so you shouldn't put the blame of the killings on the Buddhists :-). Here we see the classic doublespeak. In fact this wasn't Buddhist vs Muslim at all but an ethnic riot between the settlers Rohingya and the native Rakhine peoples. But you saw it as between Muslims and Buddhists and since it were the Rohingya who were outnumbered and massacred at a large scale you don't want to see the real reason why the riot started.

//And jews don't want to comeback you want me to give them 20 milion to comeback pff i don't need them//
How can they? Do you have the greatness of heart to accept them as your brother? No. You will participate in killing them. As you said you don't need them.

//You understand that it wasn't a 'missile' that caused 9/11? So you know nothing about this event and must keep your mouth off!! //
They said that it was a plane and it was not it was a 'missile' and if you don't know then don't talk about it and it was a plot okay and i know it well

Ciao i don't have time for politics i have more imporatant things to do and yes i broke the debate yes i did and i have alast word wich will come later if God want and it will keep you "off" anyway bla bla bla i don't care and i hate injustice and i will have a last word so wait and i don't want like Saket a new debate because i heard anought from you two about your support for Buddhist against Justice anyway

No it's not you or Israel wich say if i'm exposed or not because it's not in your hands it's in God hand

LOOK why they don't look to Israel (Israelian , jews ) as terrorist because they support killing of Kids in Palestine and things i will tell you why because it's the west friend and because Islamist kicked America then it's an enemy of the west so it's a terrorist i hate this it's injustice

and if a Human raped a Girl then Islam forbid Raping okay it's illigal okay whe you look at his look at his as a Human not according to his religion okay he did a mistake then he would be killed or i don't know but not killing all Muslims and torturing them ALL ALLL ALL why because of a Human crime it's not all Muslims fault and they all get out Buddhist and kill Muslims who are innocent including babies ?? why you would kill a baby ?? and kids ?? and you are talking i really can't believe that you are talking with a pleasure you are shameful
And jews don't want to comeback you want me to give them 20 milion to comeback pff i don't need them they can continue living their happy lives in France

Yes it's not the same because Islam alone is best but Democracy alone it's worst but Democracy limited and presized with Islam it's middle but nice

// If the religion foster suicide bombers then it is not impolite to bring the dirty elements of the religion to the foreground and make people aware of what lies beneath. //
When the west let us fine then Suicide bomber will dissepear because if they are Suicide bomber it's because Obama sent his army to fight in the name of Democracy to get his oil okay in account of American Army souls okay when they get out then it will be no suicide bomber okay and why you don't accuse Israel with Terrorisme ? it is doing the double and the triple of what a suicide bomber do ? it kill kids and women you say that you defend women right and kids so were are you you know only Aisha ? aaaah i know it's ISRAEL your sweety friend you can't opposite to it because they are jews and it's not a problem to occupy Palestine and a honor to kill kids and women according to u and your western rulers so don't talk about suicide bomber because you are who let them existing you wanted them so you get them you are shameful i can't believe and see too in Burma were they are extra racist for Muslims and Burn them Alice and hit them and torture them and you are talking i can't believe that you are talking about Suicide bomber wich want to kick up America from their contry they are right America haven't the right to be there and send it army i hate this selfishness

// We have already seen you making anti-semitic racist comments against the Jews saying that they are the cause of the trouble Muslim nations are facing. //
It's me who said that there is an invisible MASONIC CENTER OF A JEWISH RELIGION not all jews i hate only who support injustice but the others it's fine they are like friends okay don't play with readers minde

// What exactly do you think was wrong about the cartoons that you are talking about? //
i didn't seen them all but it was not good it was like rediculate our Prophet and making people thinking that who follow islam according to those draws is a fool
Do you know that they didn't kill those 5 % by a desire and do you know that many of them didn't accepted Islam and wanted to fight ? Hah ?
// Now you are saying that perhaps the Ottoman's weren't truly Islamic. ha ha. //
Yes because if it was a true Islamic 100% Islamic right one it NEVER NEVER NEVER distroy but it had many problems

// They were uprooted from their homeland and you seem to be happy about it!! Wow. And you were talking about Equality in Islam!!! //
Hahaha no one told them to get out in the revolution they could help us to fight the enemy but they run away because of cowardness and France didn't hate Jews i think so they were nrml they weren't kicked out of Algeria of mayebe France was preparing to kill all Algerians but it get sad because of Jews so it send them to France this is the only two situations that can be

// If it is so then you prove that the Algerian Muslims aren't so brave after all. I mean, you started with saying how grandly they fight and end the sentence with how poorly they have fared in getting rid of foreign occupation (even if invisible). Basically you are just being paranoid and want to blame others for your self inflicted miseries. You suffer because of Islam and lack of real democracy but blame some Invisible forces for it. // The brave generation are died now or they have 100 years old okay we have now a new Generation wich is "Mind out " and they don't care about Invisible hand but they know it well this Occupation invisible

// So you will be OK if someday some people form a group and get rid of the Muslims from Mecca and then claim that they have the right over Kaaba since the Muslims are losers? //
It will never happen and the kabaa will be distroyed in the far future anyway if this happend yes wi must to fight to get it back and it's our Mosque and no one will take it
// See now you are even insulting the polytheists //
it's my opinion and what they did for Islam ? can you list me what they said ? about my prophet and my God and Jihad and Muslims ? including you ? you are shameful to defend them
aah really so you count "Solh el Hudaibiya " a recipie of cake ? haaaaaaaaah ?! what a good one it's them who kicked Muslims out and killed them and torture them and when they broke the contract they annoced the war so Muslims were obligated to show them the lesson of ethics and get their rights back Muslims were patiend and exited for this contract to go to Kabaa….anyway
// We have seen the reasons Okay? A middle aged on a marrying spree is a definite womanizer. //
No you don't know the reason and you won't accept even if you see it and i know Islam and his fruit verry well and i like Islam and it's the most peaceful so stop claiming because i know the truth

@TnKuK
//second America isn't enought fool to let a simple missile enter his area without doing nothing okay it was done to make Muslims wear the Terrorisme cover okay so if you know "Nothing" keep your mouth "OFF" //
You understand that it wasn't a 'missile' that caused 9/11? So you know nothing about this event and must keep your mouth off!!

@TnKuK
//Any way i don't care Good bye and you will see that Islam will dominate the world and you will see that before 20 years if Allah want it will be no "Israel" on earth it will be only Palestine and the most population will be Islam you will see//
Thats the Peaceful Islam talking :-). You stand exposed.

//i see in Burma's Buddhist hungry of Dinosaurs and Angry like a KingKong //
Are you referring to the recent 2012 Rohingya riots? Do you understand it were the Muslims who started the trouble? A Rakhine woman was raped and in retaliation 10 Rohingya Muslim were killed which instigated the riots. And while you cry foul over the treatment of Muslims in Burma where they are minorities don't you think charity begins at home and Algeria should try to bring back the 150, 000 Jews the revolution has displaced? I deplore the kind of atrocity meted out to the Rohingya Muslims but they had it coming. And they are not very small in number in the state of Arakan. They form as much as 20% of the population!!! here the Rakhine people are simply returning the favour to Muslim what the Hindus, Buddhist and Christians are facing in Bangladesh and Pakistan.

@Sakat
I know what is Yoga and bla bla bla about it because i was interrested by Yoga when i was young and in the end it's like magic and i hate it now and i had spiritual experiance also Riki and Tai-chi and Chi and chakra things and bla bla bla but it's not beneficial and anyone can do it you must have only a big imagination and i hate this living in your dreams and invisible and bla bla bla and it's not interresting i was interrested because i was young and i wanted magic power because i used to see them on cartoons -_-" anyway he was an only man who give his opinion this Buddha and Islam is more older than this Buddhisme and it's a wast of time you feel nothing it's only dreams and it have a relation with satan some operation's including "Astral projection" i hate it and it's scary and with no benefits and you can die easily and your body can be stolen by a satan or a Ghost and it's not safe i hate it

Haha you say that Buddhisme teach peace sorry i see in Burma's Buddhist hungry of Dinosaurs and Angry like a KingKong while i see Muslims in Mosque Worshiping in peace and others fight for Justice and people's right and Christian only talking and Jews ( Army and who support them ) terrorists and hindu worshiping stones and this is your lives that you are proud of ? you are Shameful i think that you are a Buddhist right ?

Any way i don't care Good bye and you will see that Islam will dominate the world and you will see that before 20 years if Allah want it will be no "Israel" on earth it will be only Palestine and the most population will be Islam you will see

My holly book isn't full of sex so can you keep your mouth closed because i don't need an ignorant to tell me about my BOOK and MY religion okay i know it more than you and more than your family and more that all racists and more than your lovely "west"

YES HE FORBIDE raping and the rapper see in Quran what he must have as a punishment then come to comment

// Is this not intolerance against other religions? Then how can you object the so called killing of Muslim by Buddhist?,the law of equitable treatment applies to all uniformly. //
I'm angry now >:( you are making equality between a stupid statue with no soul with a Human soul What ?! are all people like that ? see the video of "BBC NEWS" I didn't expect from you to reach such a degree of insolence Buddhist have no reason to kill Muslims they do this by racisme and Obama is happy yes there is no problem because you all count a buddhist statu more important and you count who distroy it a terrorist BUT who kill a Human soul with no reason and with racisme you support him and you give him the right to do that but a non-useful Buddha statu wich wast the area no one take pictures with it ooh no it's a barbaric to distroy those stones e_e

And what is your problem if i kissed a non- nrml stone and i really wonder who is the greatest fool " who believe in stone as a God and many ones with no beauty " or "Who believe in one God the greatest " i really can't understand people like you

Ha ha ha okay so tell me who started Israel or Palestine ?? yes it's ISRAEL who started and his sweety America then it happend those 9/11 and for your information if your are enought fool it's not ben laden because it wasn't a plain first and second America isn't enought fool to let a simple missile enter his area without doing nothing okay it was done to make Muslims wear the Terrorisme cover okay so if you know "Nothing" keep your mouth "OFF"

Hahaha some scintific statistic say that Islam will dominate the world Haha and you and your ali will be on the foot of the world because the nomber of Muslims is augmenting and nember of non-Muslims is increasing so stop your prediction because Ali sina is just a person who publish his lies and opinions and non-sens as i saw in his book and no relation things with his argument on the Net okay he isn't a brave person so stop claiming that he is a Savant or something or an important person
Ramadan isn't maniac it's extra beneficial and i like it and i do fasting with pleasure okay so "OFF"
It's you who can't stop polluting the earth with your non-need evolution like Nuclear and such things
without you we are fine go to the other planet

Thank you for your wasted time with me it was an obligation to know that it exist people like you

@TnKuK
I am happy that you came back to answer my post !. Let me begin with Buddha– he was born prince married a princess at the age of 16 and was father to beautiful male child.However he was not satisfied with his materialistic life.Here you find his history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha.
Buddha's teachings are based on practical experience.He said don't believe blindly ,even it is said by me — don't follow any belief ,because it has been said by your prophet or the society follows them or your scripture and holy book say's so.First check the authenticity of that believe practically– next see that following such beliefs are beneficial to one self as well the society ,follow them or else discard them.He always said i am an ordinary man like you ,i don't know whether there exist God or not ?,–but certainly there is suffering and sorrows 'and there is a definite way to come out of it .He found out a path to come out of suffering and it is called 'Eight fold path' — the details are available here on the net just go through them–of course you will come to know why the scientific world is embracing Buddhism.Today it is the fastest growing religion in the western world. In contrast Mohammed came with weird preachings only suitable to primitive and Barbarian people .
This genius called Siddhart Gautam ,the Buddha exist well beyond Jesus and Mohammed ,yet his thoughts are far superior to both Jesus and Mohammed .Einstein said: “The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description.”
If you interested then i will explain you what is God?,and why Hindus worship God in many forms?.
The way to realize God is not worshiping him by chanting his name and sacrificing animals as well offering useless salutations!.You people are living in darkness of false idea about God !. There is a definite way to realize the God.It require hard TAPAS (Sanskrit word for meditation)–which your Islam is unaware of .There fore their whole life is spent in violence .God is not violence –he is peace and love with compassion and non-violence as central theme.Here you go to these links you will find how difficult the path of true spiritualism : 1 .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Bahadur_Bomjon ,2 .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVoLvLXRILg. I hope you are gradually getting taste of some other spiritual discipline older than Islam .

@Sakat sorry i didn't see your reply because it wasn't sent to my E-mail anyway Yes there is one God and i believe 100% that it exist one God not many and i have a Quran and a Prophet who tell me how to pray and how to be close to God and many things about the End and after deth and while your deth and every thing and i prayed God and i see an answer everytime of my pray and it have wonderful feeling to worship God and there is many scintific Miracle in the Quran and the Hadith and when i check it it's true and i'm happy and what is "their" proof that there is many God do they have a prophet or they have a religion God writen by a God or they have seen them or they have been happy to pray them or an old man said his opinion of this world and they made it a religion and i know that it's an old religion but because i have a minde i won't pray "Things" that don't even have a force to get up or to wink and they have no beauty a God must be beautiful the most beautiful no ? and i see only -_-" you can check them

And if it exist many God they would have a coflict and kill each other and were do they leave in earth with us but they are invisible but they have a statu -_-" and there is no proof to this religion you can pray a statu 100 year and it will never wink or answer your wish any way try by yourself pray it and say without Allah and you will see that it will never answer this simple wish

And i have a personal experiance in Islam so i'm sure that Allah is only one

@TnKuK
/ First you told me that they were Buddhist see your comments/
This is wild allegation,show me where in my post –i said this ? .
/ ihave seen many Western Documentary and Arab's ones and what do you want more than that i have seen video of Burma Army i think i don't know it was something like that and i have seen them hitting Muslims without a reason/
Will you please take trouble to provide me the link of your source of information?.
/ if someone rape a girl then Islam forbide raping okay and who rape in Islam will have a big punishment in the Judgment day okay and then why they judge them by their religion/
These kinds of tendencies are only prevalent in the followers of your religion.Your holly book is full of sex and nothing else !.It is quite natural — the followers practically experience them,in this rude way.
/ Muhammed forbide Rapind okay and he wasn't a rapist okay so stop kidding/
Good joke!
/ they distroyed the Buthist statues because they don't need stones/
Is this not intolerance against other religions? Then how can you object the so called killing of Muslim by Buddhist?,the law of equitable treatment applies to all uniformly.
/ And we haven't the idea of making a propet statue because it have no benefits and some fool people will worship him/
You are happy to kiss the p-e-n-n-y of Prophet at Kaba.You people are greatest fools and idiots on earth to follow that thug Mohammed and his criminal philosophy.
Who attacked the Americans first?,it is your people.Where the plan of 9/11 hatched ?,it is in Afghanistan during the rule of Taliban. As per international Law the state of Afghanistan was at war with U.S,so U.S is justified in occupying Afghanistan.
/anyway i will leave this website and i have a last word wich will come with time so Goodbye/
You have no other option =/. Before you many people came and vanished ,in future too many people will come ,but i assure you they will not survive.Because they don't have any difference to protect Islam.The prediction of Ali ,i think will come true: IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS ISLAM WILL COLLAPSE LIKE PACK OF CARDS,note it down.Thank you for your co-operation all these day's–btw ,we too are busy people,unlike the idle Muslim,who spent their whole life on useless prayer ,hunger( maniac Ramzan celebration),thus wasting precious OXYGEN on earth!!!.

@TnKuK
//Can you clean your brain please because Islam make Democracy Better //
You yourself said that it is incompatible with Democracy, now you are saying something else. Second there are some 50 odd Muslim majority countries in this world and not even 10 have a functional democracy which betrays your assertion.

// because it's allow many satanic things like adultery and the verry free speech unlimited//
Democracy has nothing to with adultery, neither is free speech limitless. Adultery is a social phenomenon and different societies have differing views on the subject. And in all democracies free speech isn't absolute but certain checks and balances remain in place.

//impolitness to talk about religions on a insulting way okay//
If the religion foster suicide bombers then it is not impolite to bring the dirty elements of the religion to the foreground and make people aware of what lies beneath.

//many people insult others religions and tell people to be racist//
We have already seen you making anti-semitic racist comments against the Jews saying that they are the cause of the trouble Muslim nations are facing.

//made a draws of Prophet did you see how much Muslims were mad about this//
What exactly do you think was wrong about the cartoons that you are talking about?

//you say Human rights and Democracy i told you that i'm not 100% with Democracy because it's another way to disturbe between people//
First it is not. And second that you think that only Islam has the right to disturb peoples.

//yes their goal is to invite contries to Islam if they didn't want then they will occupy them//
See you basically are affirming the narcissist, imperialistic tendencies of the Muslims.

//and they have no interrest in killing them or to torture them//
:-). Read history. They may not have interest in killing them but they did kill a few hundred thousands. It is estimated, for example, that Timur Lane alone accounted for about 5% of the world population during his time!!

// And if the Otmanian was the true Islamic nation than it wouldn't have been end anyway the Great nation will come soon//
Now you are saying that perhaps the Ottoman's weren't truly Islamic. ha ha.

//they run out because they are weak but Algerian Muslims were brave and fight//
They were uprooted from their homeland and you seem to be happy about it!! Wow. And you were talking about Equality in Islam!!!

//occupation is invisible now we still occupated but in an invisible way //
If it is so then you prove that the Algerian Muslims aren't so brave after all. I mean, you started with saying how grandly they fight and end the sentence with how poorly they have fared in getting rid of foreign occupation (even if invisible). Basically you are just being paranoid and want to blame others for your self inflicted miseries. You suffer because of Islam and lack of real democracy but blame some Invisible forces for it.

// others get out because they were loosers//
So you will be OK if someday some people form a group and get rid of the Muslims from Mecca and then claim that they have the right over Kaaba since the Muslims are losers?

//only those who worship stones and non-sense things so they lost their chance//
See now you are even insulting the polytheists:-).

//because they broke the contract of truce with Muslims and annonced a war //
Which contract? It was Muhammad who used to attack the Quraish caravans, not the other way round. Are you referring to the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah? Poor Abu Sufyan went to and fro between the Quraish and the Muhammad to keep the peace treaty intact. But it failed, Muhammad entered Mecca and broke all the idols in Kaaba. Equality indeed.

// No it's not the womanize is who know more than 100 woman and have been the boyfriend of everyone and marry and divorce 100 time and in the end he is a traitor okay and Muhammed have a reason to marry every one of them okay //
We have seen the reasons Okay? A middle aged on a marrying spree is a definite womanizer.

First you told me that they were Buddhist see your comments Second ihave seen many Western Documentary and Arab's ones and what do you want more than that i have seen video of Burma Army i think i don't know it was something like that and i have seen them hitting Muslims without a reason and manyyyyyy things and It's a human falte if someone rape a girl then Islam forbide raping okay and who rape in Islam will have a big punishment in the Judgment day okay and then why they judge them by their religion and why they burn babies and why the burn every Muslim and kill them hah ? and when someone do something they judge him as a Human not according to his religion but when it's about Islam they judge him as a Muslim i hate racist people and Muhammed forbide Rapind okay and he wasn't a rapist okay so stop kidding yourself and Democratic western media move according to the interrest okay they lie when their situation are bad and they say the truth when their situations are strong and help them selves and try to look like the peaceful one and they distroyed the Buthist statues because they don't need stones formed as a poufy man in their nation because it's taking area and without a benefits and there is no one who will worship it or come to take a picture with it okay

And we haven't the idea of making a propet statue because it have no benefits and some fool people will worship him when they lose their mide so we prefer to talk about him and those woman they can go to live in India no one missed them if afghanistan become a Democratic contry it will be the same as my contry and the same as others distroyed contry and obama will be happy because he will get a lot of Oil and the contry will be stolen by Rulers like every contry and it will be full of bawdiness and Drugs and poorness and Alcohol…etc and i hate this kind of contry and i also hate war so America have no right to send it Army to fight civilian who want their contry free of america and it Democracy …… anyway i will leave this website and i have a last word wich will come with time so Goodbye and good trip to your lovely planets and see befor critic and choose carefully and well your religion because it's not a game and it's not polite to rediculate People and their religion wich is allowed in Democracy … anyway Ciao

No i listen to you all and i know what you want and i know that it's not bad but you are talking as a non-Muslims do you know that Democracy isn't for Muslims because it's break many Islamic rules and don't limit some things that Must be limited ….. so you know what i mean and the world is changing to the war side because Western interrest want and Muslims religion want and everything is melting and i talk as a Muslim and you talk as a non-Muslim we are in a deffirent situations the Democracy isn't sized for Muslims but the others it's okay because they haven't a religion to rule them and make good limits for them with protecting their laws …..anyway

Yes it's me who broke the debate and i told you to not see me in your situation i have a lot to do we aren't the same situation and i must re-cach my time and i can't do many things in one day …

And i'm not living because of what you say but i'm living because i need time anyway we are talking bout Politics and i'm not cultured like you in politics but it's okay i have many sources thanks to God and i have preorities to do than this website and it's not like i'm a savant i'm a simple Muslim a savant is stronger in arguments because he have huge knowledge and i'm not affraid of your arguments because i know that i can proove it wrong it's easy but we talked enought and i have more important things to do so sorry and thank you

BUT ! " if God want " i will comback when my work is ready not to this website but in the real world and i request you to count it as an answer because i have confidence in God

@TnKuK
/And look like an example Muslims in Burma are "Burned alive" but they don't want to leave Islam /
Dear lady ,you are repeatedly saying that the Buddhist of Burma ,"Burned alive" Muslims in Burma,do you have any proof ,i mean do you have any independent investigation into the matter,!No!,.You are depend on the news circulated on the net by some Islamic sites.Do you know the actual story ,it begins…………
On the evening of 28 May , a group of Muslim men robbed, raped and murdered an ethnic Rakhine (Buddhist)woman, Ma Thida Htwe, near her village Tha Pri Chaung on May 28 in 2012, when she was returning home from Kyauk Ni Maw Village of Rambree township. The locals claim the culprits to have been Rohingya Muslims. The police arrested three suspects and sent them to Yanbye township jail. On 3 June, a mob attacked a bus in Taungup, apparently mistakenly believing those responsible for the murder were on board. Ten Muslims were killed in the attack, prompting protests by Burmese Muslims in the commercial capital, Yangon. The government responded by appointing a minister and a senior police chief to head an investigation committee. The committee was ordered to find out "cause and instigation of the incident" and to pursue legal action. As of 2 July, 30 people had been arrested over the killing of the Muslims. Why the Muslims every where in the world are indulged raping and killing of woman and children,because of Mohammed–he was the champion of such kind……….
And your Islam sites are showing the burning pictures of humans ,sorry! ,they are not Muslims.Infact these are the pictures of self immolation by Tibetan Buddhist monk ,opposing Chinese occupation of their country.
I believe in western media they are impartial, unlike your Islam site which are full of concocted and one side approach.The reason is very simple ,"there is no scope for scrutiny " ,unlike in the democratic set-up. You said –you are not believing the western media ,but you are freely bringing their source of information for your advantages.This is hilarious. Why the Taliban's have destroyed the grand Bamiyan Buddha's in Afghanistan,what harm these statues have done to them ?.
I know many Afghan woman who are coming to India for various reasons (for education,skill management ,medical treatment ) through TV interviews .They seldom want to see Taliban to rule their country.They want to see their country to be democratic like India ,they admire India for its 'DEMOCRACY' .If some body criticize a Hindu or Buddhist or Christians ,they are not booked under draconian blasphemy law and killed–and on top of it ,no one take seriously the criticism of their respective religion,except Islam. Islam is a filthy religion–look at the deeds of your Prophet can he stand to become Prophet of the stature of Buddha and Jesus,so disgusting.

tnkuk, it is not a problem if you decline to talk, due to your own considerations.

It was just that in the beginning when you came to visit us, and you had seen some of this website's contents, you had a certain attitude/ contention. And that was that the writers and posters on this website were wrong-wrong-wrong, about Islam. and that you could defend Islam well. and we were more than willing to listen to you.

And you then fitted the pattern of many Muslims coming here, ONLY saying "wrong-wrong-wrong' without listening to our side, our arguments.

At least you stayed a while, thank you for that. To be better than the other Muslims though, I think it is proper for you to at least also admit that you CANNOT have a good judgement about us and our arguments because you either lacked the time or the spirit to really examine our arguments. Which is what we do and what would have been admirably if you had done it. But you DIDn't try to understand us! I think this is WEAK of you. Now you will indoctrinate your children with nothing but Islam I fear.

Admit that YOU broke off the debate, not us. YOU were the one using the excuse that "there was no Utility", whereas you should have admitted that our arguments were just too strong for you and many Muslims.

And you, in the end, must admit that you were not able or willing to defend Islam at all. And that perhaps Islam cannot be defended at all, against knowable infidels here.

YOU COULD NOT DEFEND ISLAM.! Admit is, be humble. come back when you can and dare and have the spirit, which you lost, due to ISLAM's many faults, which made you unable to defend it.

It's Getting longer and without an Utility so i think that i'm out of this conversation because i have to cach my time again and i have work to do and we are talking about Politics and we will change nothig and i'm in the end a simple Muslim and it's my Simple Opinions and it's not like i'm running away but i have priorities to do so say what you want because we talked enought and i hope that you will see Islam from the "Inside" and reconize that Democracy isn't enought educated because it's the major cose of hate between nations and religion's conflict and racisme and America isn't Justice center because it work with interrest certenly the Oil and Petrol side like in Burma and Afganistan i think and i had a dream that i'm in a Christian and non-known rips on a cemetery and the interpretation was " there is no life in who you call" wich mean that every one of us will keep caching his side no one will change his side or idea it will still the same also i hate this website anyway it's full of impolite things and it's not my goal to vanish but when it's not beneficial and it will change nothing i prefer to make my time more benificial for me so Goodbye

Happy democratic live =_=" be carefull on your life roads because you are choosing the wrong way anyway Good Luck

Can you clean your brain please because Islam make Democracy Better and when there is only Islamic law it's the best because democracy is the problem for Muslims because it's allow many satanic things like adultery and the verry free speech unlimited and i will say to you the same
IIAnd free speech are just Bla bla bla that people want to hear when you come to the benefit of speaking a lot it's not beneficial it's just a wast of time and it's from impolitness to talk about religions on a insulting way okay so the Half of the world's problems are Due of the non-conditioning of the free speech because many people insult others religions and tell people to be racist and laught about others okay so the insulted side will get mad and it will be a big problem and it can stop relations between them and then they will hate each others okay and conditions in every subject should be ! because mayebe if you remember when they allowed this free of critic religions and made a draws of Prophet did you see how much Muslims were mad about this and it happens a big disturbation on the Islamic contries and the right of shredding the Quran and they were used to hate west and all non-Muslims who support this and many things and you say Human rights and Democracy i told you that i'm not 100% with Democracy because it's another way to disturbe between people and a way of planting and establishment Hate between people and leaning to being racist and taking others important things with an easy laught and rediculate them Islam only make some limits to the Free speech to not fall in the same disaster of Democracy and plating racisme and hate and rediculation of people II
yes their goal is to invite contries to Islam if they didn't want then they will occupy them and they have no interrest in killing them or to torture them we were a contry that have been in an romanian occupation i think i can't remamber exactly and they saved us i think too and we become Muslims i'm not sure but it's something like that i forget
And if the Otmanian was the true Islamic nation than it wouldn't have been end anyway the Great nation will come soon

/// Have you organized an interview with them? /// i don't have the right but you have mayebe so go on
and they don't interrest me because i have more important things to do than wasting my time because it will never change

Yes i know this but it still some of them they are cowards 🙂 they run out because they are weak but Algerian Muslims were brave and fight and they weren't too evoluated but with the help of God france get out but when makers of revolution died the occupation is invisible now we still occupated but in an invisible way

Yes you say that it was owned by all arabians and after it was an Islamic Arabian one and it still because most Arabian convert and others get out because they were loosers and others had their own religions and didn't need Kaaba like Jews and Christian it still only those who worship stones and non-sense things so they lost their chance and get out with their want because they broke the contract of truce with Muslims and annonced a war

No it's not the womanize is who know more than 100 woman and have been the boyfriend of everyone and marry and divorce 100 time and in the end he is a traitor okay and Muhammed have a reason to marry every one of them okay

If you don't count it an answer then i will told you why because Arabic contry don't have good rulers and we aren't Developed contry okay if a Muslim went to a poor Democratic contry he will never evoluate okay including Christians and Jews and bla bla bla okay and i knew a women from France wich have no-religion she told me that we have posibilities more than frence but our rulers ate us okay

Ga ga ga no sorry in Caliph's sustem we have "Shura" wich mean the people choose their caliph okay it's better than Vote because we do conversations and must to convince people and people choose someone that they know and if he do a bad this he must to not be a caliph anymore okay

They don't occupy contries to torture them and take all their riches earth and their treasors and money and kill people and torture them and steal their money and make them as animals okay see what England and France did then come to talk about them and i know that you don't know how does a war look like and an occupation of a contry look like so please don't talk a lot about things that you don't know

It was like a war Otmanian invite them and when they refuse it will be a war otmanian try to occupy to make it an Islamic contry not-MORE and the others fight for their religion

Muslims can be one nation and others religion can't because a Muslim isn't like a non-Muslim we learnd that we are brothers we can't kill each other and Islam have the most good ethics

Yes and you will see that it will turn the situations i promise that you will see a lot if you stay alive i hope me too and you will see that Palestine will be free and you will see that Islam won't end

@TnKuK
// Because 1st Christian or others have nothing to do in an Islamic contry and they won't go to an Islamic contry to live they choose alwyas non-Islamic contry //
You aren't answering my question. I told you about successful muslims in a Christian country. However the reverse isn't true. There are many minorities live in Muslim majority countries like Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, Ahamadiyas, Parsis and we don't see them succeeding in their countries. Why?

//t's not like i have many time to wast and wait every 5 years the vote to vote//
Well thats your right. You can vote out a government. But in islamic setup you can't vote out your Caliph.

//in the End Obama will re-win anyway//
If Obama is popular among the people then Yes. But we have seen many elections in democratic societies and governments have been thrown out, trashed and dusted. The ballot works much better than the bullet. Just recently we saw the world's largest democracy shutting the doors on a 10 year old government that was failing on many fronts.

//the caliph invited them and when they didn't wanted he occupate their contry //
:-). So you think it was right for the Caliph to occupy other people's territory? Then why should you have a problem with the colonialist tendencies of Britain and France?

//but they had never the Idea of torturing them and i don't know//
I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you don't know.

//No it's not because of Islam because Islam tell us always to be togather but Democracy said "Each country is independent of the other"//
Countries are independent of each other because they have, generally, a distinct cultural and social identity that is unique to them. Even if you conceive of a common Muslim Ummah a Berber will have his unique culture compared to a Pashtun or a Turk.

//i know that their bloods will not go down the drain i know it and i have confidence of it because Islam will re-make his nation even if the world hated this//
And with this I think it should now be clear to @Demsci that what 'peaceful' Islam looks like and exactly which side @TnKuK is.

@TnKuK
//We use Democratic laws anyway it's a micture or Dectatorisme and Democratizme and two Islamic laws mayebe ?! who know //
That is what Islam will invariably get you. Democracy, as you rightly said is incompatible with the basic ideas of Islam and holding onto Islam will get you a undemocratic system where the minorities will have no rights and suffer abuse.

//Otmanian were strong and they were "not" using Democracy they were using Islam//
Yes they were strong and they were using Islam. But for what purpose? Expanding their empire from Turkey to South-East of Europe, North of Africa and Western Asia. Butchering people, massacring thousands of Bulgarians, Armenians, Berbers, Bosnians. When the empire started its expansions it was majorly Christian and when it finished in 1920s only 19% of its population was non-muslim (around 40% were non-muslim even in 1840s). This is the heritage of Islam which you are so proud of.

//when we used to have a great caliph a true Muslim one it was huge//
You haven't read much of history it seems. There were many rich, huge and very successful empires before and after the Ottomons. And like many of the empires in the past they also ended.

//You can organize an interview with them and you will see//
Have you organized an interview with them?

//And remember whe Othmans Used to be a huge power they were Muslims following Muhammed //
Yes off course they were following Muhammad. While other dynasty makers like Darius, Alexander or even the British Empire didn't alter the culture or tamper with the religious beliefs of their subjects, the Ottomons reduced the Christian and Jews to Dhimmi status, and increased their hardship to the degree that they either converted or fled their native regions. That is the hallmark of a true Mohammedan indeed.

//Yes, i don't know where they are mayebe they are always in "Constantine" and "Tlemcen" living their lives//
🙂 They had to flee their country. Before the Algerian revolution there were roughly 140,000 jews living there, today no more than 5,000 live there. Equality in Islam indeed.

//I don't know if they can go to "Kaaba" because it's an Islamic ownership and it's only for who have Islamir religion it's a Mosque don't forget //
A simple question and you struggle to answer!! The polytheist used to pray in Kaaba before the advent of Islam. True or False? So how can it be Islamic ownership? In those days Kaaba was owned by all the tribes of Arabia housing idols from various tribes. It was in a sense a very secular place and there was equality indeed. But once Islam came, the polytheist were either converted or killed and Kaaba was claimed exclusively for Islam. Now every muslim knows this history. And yet when I ask equal treatment for polytheist with regard to their original practices in Kaaba you excuse yourself saying the exclusive rights of Muslim over Kaaba!!! WOW!!!

//he isn't a womanizer//
1. Married a girl of 6.
2. married a girl fit to be his daughter, since she was a friends' daughter.
3. Married a plethora of women who were his daughter's age.
4. Married a dozen women while it was restricted to 4 for other Muslims.
5. Kept at least 4 concubines.
You know what? All these are characteristics of a womanizer (And I am using a very 'diluted' adjective).

And look like an example Muslims in Burma are "Burned alive" but they don't want to leave Islam because they know the truth and know what does God mean and know what does Islam is and know that Islam isn't like what you think and they are burned by your lovely Buddhist that you are proud of and PS: because they do this they religion have no chance to be real because it made a non-heart human and a real Terrorist okay a Terrorist is who kill people without a reason and the terroriste too is who see him doing this and stend up in his side because he support his burning of people alive + kids and babies see by yourself how does them so … do you know something don't talk about Buddhist this terrorists religion because i hate them in way that you can't believe those sick people i really hope that they will burn in the HELL in the most hight degree on existance like 90000 Bilion dergree and if you keep talking about them and how they are cool in your eyes then don't talk with me because i will hate you too and i really hope that you are not from a Buddhist religion i really hope and i don't hate every Buddhist there is "few" people wich are nrml for me the Human ones and Obama support it because there is a Petrol interrest so he can't be a Human when it's about his interrest … anyway i hate terrorists
and Muslim savants or even Nrml people convince many people with Islam okay and many people convert to Islam and there is many Stars that did we are not playing in Islam like your religions we have work

Look to tell you that i'm ordinary ( who are convinced by the news easily ) Sorry i am not because i like to see the two sides situation and if America want to win she most to make it's enemy looser in every place so it call them terrorist and lie a lot to make them really as a terrorists and make them dirty and i saw how does Taliban look like from the "INside" and they have no interrest to kill civilian they kill American Army and try to end their existance in their contry this is all okay and America did many problems in the name of Taliban to make civilian opposite to it and to make the world opposite to them and they didn't like Democracy because it's allow Drinking Alcohol and adultery ….etc and this isn't allowed in the religion and it's from the bawdiness …

And i'm convinced with them because they haven't a bad Goal and they don't kill civilian and they give their lives for a such goal wich end the bawdiness but in the other side America fight for interrest so they need democracy to practise their interrest well and to allow bawdiness wich is a not allowed for Muslims all this on account of poor American army souls for a such interrest goal and i hate who sacrify the life of others for his interrests …

And i will tell you the same what i told your friend
II And free speech are just Bla bla bla that people want to hear when you come to the benefit of speaking a lot it's not beneficial it's just a wast of time and it's from impolitness to talk about religions on a insulting way okay so the Half of the world's problems are Due of the non-conditioning of the free speech because many people insult others religions and tell people to be racist and laught about others okay so the insulted side will get mad and it will be a big problem and it can stop relations between them and then they will hate each others okay and conditions in every subject should be ! because mayebe if you remember when they allowed this free of critic religions and made a draws of Prophet did you see how much Muslims were mad about this and it happens a big disturbation on the Islamic contries and the right of shredding the Quran and they were used to hate west and all non-Muslims who support this and many things and you say Human rights and Democracy i told you that i'm not 100% with Democracy because it's another way to disturbe between people and a way of planting and establishment Hate between people and leaning to being racist and taking others important things with an easy laught and rediculate them Islam only make some limits to the Free speech to not fall in the same disaster of Democracy and plating racisme and hate and rediculation of people
II
So conclution : Democracy isn't the best law on existance wich mean the opposite of what you say …etc

And i will tell you what make them don't want to be convinced , it's because the whole west make Islam dirty by saying Terrorist here terroriste there terrorisme today terrorisme tomorrow and they only say "Islamic " bla bla bla bla bla they don't say a man did a man bombed no they an Islamic a Muslim and also there are many people who did bad works in the name of Islam and i had TERRORISME in my contry and i know what does it mean it's not you who mean and can say if Taliban are or are not okay i tried to live in a terrorisme Area and it have no relation with Islam okay ! and because of the non-Muslims racisme they made films about our Prophet and tell us their opinion and NO ONE ASKED THEM their opinion and many of them made books to tell people to be raciste and hate Islam and be carefull because it's terrorisme and bla bla bla…etc
And Thanks to God i grown in an Islamic contry and i know what does Islam really mean and i'm convinced about this Great religion and it's shameful that it exist people like those who invite people to be raciste and lie to them a lot and say their stupidity with a glad and many people who are not cultured they accept it and don't even want to talk in the subject … and i'm not enought fool to worship stones and monkey and cow's and their statue sorry i have a minde and God make me surpass those stones with my minde i won't worship something wich is not great and don't convince me and if i distroyed it nothing will happend only imagination …. etc

And is you say that a religion wich ask you to worship a strong God is worst than a religion wich ask you to worship many Gods and they are stones and a human made HA HA HA sorry i'm not fool i refer to worship someone that is the Most beautiful the most strong ….etc and because of Islam i know what does GOD mean wich is the thing that you can't inderstand even if you worship the most big stone on earth okay and i can't worship a poufy man with a big face and say that it's God sorry sorry you can hate me and accuse me what you want but i will never worship such things because i have a minde

@TnKuK
See there are video's and pictures ,and any ordinary human will convince –that it is TALIBAN in action. And if you say it is the western propaganda — simply an escapism on your part .Hard truth are hardly told !. I can give you innumerable proof about this primitive Talibanese ,provided if you make an impartial reviewing……..
If you say Islam is best and you are convinced of……. then why the westerners are not embracing it in large number ,instead they choose Hinduism and Buddhism.What makes them move away from Islam ?,even highly knowledgeable savants and Imams of Islam UNABLE to convince them about the virtues of ISLAM,why?. Just see how they go after Hindu Gurus and Buddhist Monks ,what virtues these savants of eastern religions knew about ,which your Islam is lacking.

Yes and what is the situation from the side of Taliban ? and who said that they didn't give this woman money to talk what they want and we can see that she is poor and have no money and i don't think that Taliban are like this and they say in the video that they are terrorist wich mean that it's a western source wich hate taliban and do what is possible to make Taliban dirty and we have seen that many western people say that Taliban isn't bad but the others said that it's bad …..

Anyway i think that they won't do this because it's not allowed and they fight the American Army not civilian okay they protect their area this is only and the arrest every one who help American Army this is all they don't kill by desire okay they kill by a right and if they killed without a right then they can go to hell and they know that i have seen many other Video that show the opposite of wat your video's say

@Sakat Thank you but there is no proof it's just a wrinten article and this is a western man went to taliban and filmed them INside and it's short 27 min i think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OI8Y0jjM0k
his name is paul refsdal i think
And i have seen many videos of them and they have no interrest for women it's not their goal women they don't have time for such stupidness and wast of time and i have seen many documentary of 2h and 1 h about them and it film them saying things and doing things and no one wanted a women many of them are married and many of them are teachers….etc

Any way if you don't believe you must to see them inside of them not what News give you and it only give you it opinion and no one want the opinion of the west we want the truth

Yes Grapefruit they are showing us their Democracy and we see and we think that it's annoying
We use Democratic laws anyway it's a micture or Dectatorisme and Democratizme and two Islamic laws mayebe ?! who know

No of course no i want to know how does Islamic world look like in the past and why Otmanian were strong and they were "not" using Democracy they were using Islam and then i made a conclution the default isn't in Islam it's in the rulers when we used to have a great caliph a true Muslim one it was huge but when Democracy enter it nose and people start making Presidents and occupations of Islamic contries and …..etc it turned to a disaster

You can organize an interview with them and you will see that they don't follow Muhammed and he isn't a womanizer and they follow their desire and buildings and bla bla bling about non-sense and being " Mr. I complain " and because of such people we aren't one nation they can't let money go
And remember whe Othmans Used to be a huge power they were Muslims following Muhammed okay don't compare those people to true people

I don't know if they can go to "Kaaba" because it's an Islamic ownership and it's only for who have Islamir religion it's a Mosque don't forget

Yes, i don't know where they are mayebe they are always in "Constantine" and "Tlemcen" living their lives and i know that some of them rent some places to people and i don't know but they are discret and some of them went to France and some are here but they keep their religions as a Secret and we have many Jewish tombs and we have a Jewish woman i don't know whatshe do but she is in the Education side

I din't say that Democracy is the enemy the enemy that beat them because it will be a day i think mayebe the world war IV maybe the whole Muslims fight togather with many non-Muslims contries and make a big military power and fight a common enemy of them and in the end they will fight against each other and Muslims win i hope that i will be alive it's not Democracy
// Democratic Nations nowhere maltreat Muslims or threathen them.//
Are you sure because many Democratic nations kill Muslims and many Democratic onew support them like America nad Burma and South Africa and many places

In the reality because we have such contries rulers you can't do what you want and savants talk about those things but there is many Muslims outmind they are in an Inattention so it's not a good situation but when wars began they start being careful …etc

And we don't have an Islamic true contry even Saoudi Arabia isn't a true ISLAMIC contry it only use Islamic laws but never do recomendation of ISLAM like CALIPH AND sHURA and the Modesty of the ruler and that he work hard to be fair and ….etc you know the duties of a ruler

And Muslims in the reality don't care about racisme only if it's direct face to face i think they will be hurt but in the end it will be okay they forget
And don't imagine that we are like America "having the chance to talk with the ruler or something" or the good ruler there isn't such things and we can do nothing it's because of that i think ISIS grown and then re-lose itself …

And Muslims generaly don't suicide because no one will care :p but some people do it by angr
Yes but in religions drinking alcohol is nrml Muslims can't go to paradise when they drink ( only if they ask forgiveness and never return)

Yes because Taliban didn't want Democracy and the rulers wanteD Democracy so they hated the idea of living in a contry that allow Drink alcohol and allow adultery even if it's a Muslim contry so they start fighting against this Democracy

And no I Have the right to study and to no marry ( there is a Hadith wich never allow to marry a woman without her permission and acceptance even if her whole family wnated ) and i know verry well how to talk with this kind of people verry well i have an experiance and i can advice them when i think that they are wrong anf if they killed me wich is far i will die while fighting for the justice that God tolld us about it's a honor and i will forgive them only if they were true Muslims and i know someone who went there for 3 years or 4 i'm not sure and he talked with them with a "Camera" it was an old one because it was on 1991 and he said that they are good people and i don't know if he fight with them but he was glad

so i can say that i have a pure source of info's because he was from them

Yes it's what i do the both sides what America say from the OUTside of Taliban and what is it's Goal and what Taliban say from the inside and what is their Goal this is what i did !
Yes ISIS disturbe me a lot because i used to think that it's not bad because it fight the injustice but when i heard that it fight the FSA and cut people hands because they used to steal because they haven't what to eat ( and it's not allowd in a such situation ) and i don't know and many others group of Sunni Adviced them and told them to stop killing Muslims i was surprised but now i know that i never support ISIS never and Yes "Shiaa" are more united than Sunni and i don't know why certenely i was disappointed about Hizbollah because he choosed the injustice side and i was looking to him as a brave man and a strong one but no more because i think that he help Bashar because he is from Shiaa like him against his Brothers in Islam this is not brave at all

And i heard that ISIS isn't supported by those contry but the FSA is the suported one "i think " because i heard many people in critic of ISIS and that they don't want it and made short films to stop help it
And it's strange about them because i don't know their Goal they are misterious and dangerous you can't exepect what they will do and i believe in the FSA it's more confident and they are more nice because they are from syria they are beating for a brave Goal i think

And yes it will be a common idea that they will attack those contries but i don't like them to do it because i'm not with the idea ISIS nation but if they repare themselves then i will accept them because i don't want to live in a false Islamic un-battable nation even if this is my dream to have one nation but it's not my dream strange Caliphs and Shiaa i want only sunni because it will be a big war if we live with shiaa

Yes this is why i think that it will be another Big world war and then every thing will change

Democratic nations are not your enemy! They will gladly let Muslims have their own states. In their own nations they allow complete freedom of religion, as you must know.

But there are Islam-supremacists who understand how democracy erodes Islam and the influence of Islamic leaders. THEY fear democracy and fight the West, the mighty, wealthy promotor of democracy.

And through a combination of Islam-texts and propaganda from Islam-supremacists now many Muslims are anti-Western, anti-Democratic. And sometimes even supportive of dictatorial regimes in Russia, China, NOrth Korea. Ali Sina and many many many Westerners think it is the fault of Islam and therefore want Islam destroyed and weakened. People like me just want to eventually let Muslim reject those fascist lying Islam-supremacists and make genuine peace with Democratic Nations. Islam-supremacists directly threathen democracy (in all the world). Democratic Nations nowhere maltreat Muslims or threathen them.

Quran said that his punishment is in the Judgment day and i wanted to say by "it's not sure " that even if you let him he will be punished in the end and Killing the apostasy is in many religions i'm not sure about Christian but i had a friend Christian that was tortured with everything many months because she was converted to Islam but she run out of her house and she is in a refuge and many others and another teenager from south Africa and i think that what ISRAEL is doing is the true Barbarisme because it kill people without a reason and kids and bombing them okay and because he was a Muslim he used to know Muslims sercets and informations and when he join Jews or Christians ( those who used to kill them and fight against them ) he will help them to kill Muslims so they give the apostasy 3 days were they give him a nice treatment and try to re-convince him and if he didn't he will be killed but God made their Punishment in the Judgment day you can choose one of the two according to the situation that you live in if it was no-problem and no war you can let him but when there is a hate and a war and fight against Muslims he would be a traitor but when there is no problem it's okay to let him because his punishment will be in the End

And joining to a religion is serious you must to think and be convinced then join it certenely in the statue it's not like you convert yourself anytime and annoce it on Public your statu will change from each religion and you will be judged according to your religion and whome sime you are with

And when a man from the American Army join Taliban they will kill him because of a conversation see the idea ?! no it's because of the statu

You know, it is so hard to understand for us how Islam-supremacism, coming from conservative Mullah's, is NOT the prime motivation of the Taliban. The best I can say about Taliban is; OK, they are different. And should try to live in their own state.

But there is so much oppression and especially of women and there is this honor-killing-thing going around in Afghanistan. And IMO America does not really have bad intentions, although of course there are bad Americans.

You know that they blew up so many girls-schools, built by the Americans? The Americans never were there to conquer or rule, and they set up elections as honest as possible. What did the Taliban do? Warn people NOT TO VOTE. They killed voters, or cut off their inked voting fingers (saw foto's of that). It is not the Americans (generally seen as civilised) BUT the Taliban who are seen as most intimidating, controlling people.

You know something else? Americans have spies, their own disguised people, and satellites. And if they can, they target Taliban-leaders, but always guilty killers, warmongers, Islam-supremacists. And because of this, it is known that the Taliban hardly dare to meet openly and in big numbers.

Your Islamic side makes you choose for them, your co-religionists. But your womanhood and democratic tendencies should really make you choose for the protectors of human and democratic rights and those are the Americans.

No , Never free speech is a right and and ALSO have conditions ! Islam never suppress free speeches okay and in Islam we have "Shura" wich give attention to the whole Muslims opinion ….etc

And free speech are just Bla bla bla that people want to hear when you come to the benefit of speaking a lot it's not beneficial it's just a wast of time and it's from impolitness to talk about religions on a insulting way okay so the Half of the world's problems are Due of the non-conditioning of the free speech because many people insult others religions and tell people to be racist and laught about others okay so the insulted side will get mad and it will be a big problem and it can stop relations between them and then they will hate each others okay and conditions in every subject should be ! because mayebe if you remember when they allowed this free of critic religions and made a draws of Prophet did you see how much Muslims were mad about this and it happens a big disturbation on the Islamic contries and the right of shredding the Quran and they were used to hate west and all non-Muslims who support this and many things and you say Human rights and Democracy i told you that i'm not 100% with Democracy because it's another way to disturbe between people and a way of planting and establishment Hate between people and leaning to being racist and taking others important things with an easy laught and rediculate them Islam only make some limits to the Free speech to not fall in the same disaster of Democracy and plating racisme and hate and rediculation of people

Look Israel help itself and having a free speed against Israel and people support you mayebe "inside" Israel BUT iSRAEL will IGNORE it so free speech is a way to IGNORE people with their satisfation and they give them the posibility to Bla blabla a lot with no benefit but when it's about Palestinian ALL human rights are suppressed you can be killed , you can be bombed , kids can be shout by Army with no problem from from 10 months old to 80 years old no problem and they can distroy aid car and prevent them the entering to treatment of those who were under bombardment and let them die and i'm with HAMAS against this shameful cowards they are coward from little kids they are scared from them in the future so they kill them and i saw how does them hit women and took their kids and lie a lot …etc

And Islam allow us to talk to them by the advice way not like you to insult them on Public we in Islam we go to them and talk to them and give them advices to repare theirselves with the proofs that what they are doing is false and with a nice way and polite one and every thing is okay we are not like Democracy we are better
And if it will never happend because we are like Brothers in Islam we give advices to each other without hate and ridiculation and humiliation and racisme and sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes we haven't one opinion so it's the turn of "Shura" and bringing help from Q-H-S and forgiveness and with Islamic ethics wich are the best and even if what you are saying will never happend in a true Islamic contry but let's imagine that it was happen and i they will put me in the jail " i told you that even in the jail i will never be angry of something it's a honor to go to Jail because of Justice remember "Mandela did the same " and who says that the Jail is horrible it's a place were you have a lot of free time and i need free time and many of our Savants were in the Jail because of Justice and they liked it because they had planty time to spend alone with God this is it their happinesse is "INside" no relation with OUtside

you are meaning by totalitarianism those Taliban and Hamas and i don't know because they are Islamic right ?! and non Democratic right ?! and i told you about Islam and how much it is better then this unstudied law called Democracy or studied for interrest to ignore people with their satisfation and Democracy did a lot of bad deals okay and plant hate between nations … anyway you know more than me about this point

@TnKuK
//I have seen "Democratic in the tital of my contry so it's Democratic//
Ha ha. So you are saying grapefruit and grape are one and same because both have the word 'grape' in their name?

//but it's violed according to interrest in all the world not only in my contry //
Yes it is. There are I agree with you. However what matters is the degrees to which it is violated. There are different flavours of it and different countries have implemented different 'modes' of democracy. However the basic essence of democracy requires people to have the voting rights to choose a government or replace a dysfunctional one. If this mere requirement isn't met then I dare say you AREN'T living in a Democracy.

//how was the Islamic world and Othmanian caliph ( you know it's wonderful on this side ) aah//
And do you want to go back to history and read how the Ottomons crushed the Bulgars and the Albanians? How they treated the Serbs and the Bosnians.. and so on?

//he is a rich see his house and you will see that it's lifestyle not Islam or non-ISLAM //
Isn't then thats a proof that in rich Islamic countries, where one expects proper Islamic guidance in place, tyranny exists? What would you expect from a group of people whose greatest leader was a womaniser, kept few concubines and looted Jew and Quraish caravans?

//Haaaaah ?! Islam always tell us about Equality //
Really? Tell me one thing. Suppose there are some polytheists still living in some remote corners of Saudi Arabia. Should they be allowed to perform their annual pilgrimage to Kaba like they used to do when Islam came around? And did I hear that you are an Algerian? Could you tell me what happened to the 140,000 Jews who used to live in Algeria before the Algerian revolution?

//Muslims have Islam and those contry have nothing because of that they are underdevelopement they need your democracy but when Muslims have Islamic laws they are underdeveloped because they choosed Democracy this is the circle of life choose what is for you //
They are underdeveloped because they haven't given their citizens their due rights. Much of Latin America is/was ruled by autocratic, leftist regimes with no internal democracy. Those with democracy like Argentina and Brazil are actually doing quite well and at par with some the European countries!!! Most Islamic republics are only nominally democratic with fake voting and despotic government. And when you add the intolerant nature of Islam to the mix you get a perfect explanation for the environment that you get in these countries.

The News lie a lot look to this Journalist i think she was captured by Taliban and see what she say and also i don't have confidance on the American News and their Aillies because they lie a lot and say terrorisme for every thing anyway and i know someone who went to Taliban and Talked with them he were in Afghanistan for 3 years i think he know them well and he didn't say that they are Evil or Terroriste and i don't think that they are them in the news because i saw how does them look like in a Documentary filmed from the INside of Taliban and they never want to kill civilian they vise for the American army and their ailies and who fight them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFqtZd0y_0g
& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkN6P8Bp7jE –> ( if you don't have time )

Yes, from 1979 to 1989 the Russians tried to rule Afghanistan through "puppets", no elections then. The Russians were far more brutal against resistance then the Americans were in 2001-2014. The Americans helped the Mujahidien against the Russians, who were officially atheists, but both Mujahedeen and Americans for the most part believed in God.

The NATO-forces have "rules of engagement" which mean they have to take care of civilians not getting shot (The Russians bombed whole villages when there was resistance there). Nevertheless there are far more Talibans shot than NATO-soldiers. The Taliban are known for many savage murders of ordinary people, just for standing up to them.

The Taliban would not have let you study, tnkuk! they want girls uneducated, married soon, have lots of children! And In Burqa. Ooooooh, why dont' you go check there?! &nbsp;Or at least, check both sides, not only your propaganda-sites!

The problem is much more that Muslims can or cannot be dedicated MORE to that than to countries they live in. That the chance of that is high. And that the ones who do this, have valid interpretations of Quran-Hadiths-Sira and openly say it. and openly support Muslims in Islamic countries who say it.

Indicating their highest loyalty is not to the country they migrated to. BUT to Islamic laws, even those which contradict their new nation's laws, even when they in effect choose an enemy of their new country over that country.

And then STILL cry "racism' Hatred against Muslims &nbsp;by inhabitants of their new countries, as if nothing is wrong with Muslims and THEIR CHOICES.

muslims SHOULD EITHER ADAPT THEIR COUNTRIES TO THEIR LOYALTIES (Meaning move to a country with Islamic laws to which they are loyal) or ADAPT THEIR LOYALTY TO THEIR NEW COUNTRY.

And you can talk about freedom of religions and speech, but if we tolerants allow too many intolerants, then they take over, and we COMMIT SUICIDE.

And you know, no democratic country has official laws against ADULTERY, with very good reasons. Not even Turkey has them.

And you know, America tried "prohibition" of alcohol in 1920-1933. And it became a big disaster. Organised crime prophited enormously and became very powerful. And yes, indeed, by now, the Taliban, or big parts of it, are really producers and smugglers of opium, and they have become in effect criminals, I hear.

You saw propaganda or a minority. I like to point out this; Whenever Muslims are in power, they suppress free speech. Whenever Americans/ Westerners are in power, they ALLOW free speech, even if it is against them.

That should wake you up! You can look up anti-Western propaganda, and speak freely about it everywhere on the planet. But those, who &nbsp;live under Islamic tyrant groups and speak as critically about the Islamic side.as the Democratic Nations, yes, even Israel ALLOW, the lives and freedom of those people are often soon at stake! Totalitarians DO NOT ALLOW free speech!!!

And now, will you be a person who sides with the totalitarians, the censors, the jailers and killers, when it comes to those who criticize them? And who, without any risk from them, attacks the very nations and persons who ALLOW you criticism against them??? then you would be a despicable coward, I think.

Oh, really, I know, our side LIES A LOT! BUT….. YOUR SIDE LIES EVEN MORE.
And our side let's you criticize it, allows you to see both sides of the argument. But "your side, when it can, will crush, kill, jail, torture any opposition"!

And this is not about Islam, it is about the difference between democracy and totalitarianism. And unfortunately many Muslims seem to be on the totalitarian side. But we democrats know how disastrous, cruel, that always works out!

//"i'm a fan of Japan"// No, they can never be racist if they reject Muslims, because there are Muslims of all races. No, they can reject Muslims because of IRRECONCILABLE differences in law, and loyalty of Muslims to outsiders, enemies of Japan. Which means that when numbers of Muslim immigrants are big, they intend to transform the host country into an Islamic country, or one with many Islamic enclaves, with their own laws.

And no, the whole Islam, may not be favoring shariah laws over Japanese laws, when the two contradict. But the chance that a high proportion of Muslim immigrants harbors low or wrong loyalties is rather big.

And now we can compare how Japan fares WITHOUT Muslim immigration and how the West fares WITH Muslim immigration. It is really up to the Muslims to let the West prosper and be free as much as or more than Japan. If the West clearly fares worse than Japan, than the Muslims maybe are to blame!

//" I believe in fair"/? If you mean it, you should inform yourself from both sides of the argument, I think.

You know; Iran, rump Iraq, rump Syria, Hizbollah, they are the Shiite group, and they are pretty much united. But the Sunni Side is very much divided, and looks very complicated. ISIS, whom you rightly do not like, yet is a real big enemy of the Shiite group; I have seen literally truckloads of Shiites, Iraqi soldiers, executed by them on youtube, as well as some executions. Now, in Syria they are fighting Assad, Hezbollah, Iran.

Support for ISIS, it is said, comes from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait. And Egypt is in alliance with them too. ISIS is now very strong and inspired, dedicated, But it already has East Syria + West Iraq. And I don't see them defeat Assad, or conquer Shiite Iraq or Kurdistan.

There now is a really absurd and ridiculous theory that ISIS was set up, trained, financed, and LED by …… Israel, America, and behind them ….. the Freemasons. I think you would a big fool if you believed that. Because of what ISIS itself self says and does and what they say they want.
But the theory, sometimes, says; it is the goal of the Jews/ Freemasons to form a world government and to let Shiites and Sunnites figh each other.

Anyway; I can see the possibility that ISIS defects, away from Saudi Arabia, and that it joins the Shia-group, due to their common huge hatred of Israel and America and Democracy. If that happens this Shia-ISIS-group will very probably be supported by Turkey. And it will attack …. Israel but also Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt (they already do that in Sinai).

And Jordan, Saudi, Egypt, will de facto become allies of the West and Israel. Israel will probably annex the West Bank. And if Iran becomes a nuclear power, which is almost certain, I think, then there might come a big war. Some even predict World War III.

But bright people should then side with the Democratic nations I think, even if they are Muslims, but reasonably educated and smart and free and fair and willing to co-exist instead of willing to let Islam dominate and suppress and blockade.

/"so it's not sure to kill the apostasy"// NOT SURE? But it is a BARBARIC law. The other main religions do categorically NOT HAVE IT. Mohammed did say in the Hadith; "If a man changes his religion, then kill him". Of course he meant away from Islam and towards another religion, not vice versa. But YOU should consider this one of the many Quran-Hadith-Sira-verses only valid in the past, not now anymore. At least, IF you want us to consider you "Civilized, willing to co-exist with us, and not barbaric and very UNFAIR. Unfair, because if one religion punishes apostasy out of it, and the other religions don't, then the followers of that one religion are very hypocritical and play false ; rejoicing when an outsider becomes Muslim, but murdering when a Muslims goes over to the outsiders! And remember, only at a mature age can people choose religion, parents and community should not in any way coerce young adults to stay in their religion. That is the rule in dmocratic countries.

// Forget it. I have proved that you don't leave in a democratic country. And Thats that. All your ranting about Israel occupying Palestine and US supporting it don't fall in the area of domestic political structure but mostly foreign policy matter for US. Rest of it far beyond what we were discussing in this thread. //
I have seen "Democratic in the tital of my contry so it's Democratic because they told so we walk with Democratic laws but it's violed according to interrest in all the world not only in my contry …

// Which only means that you are a poor student. Nothing to do with the subjects themselves. //
Thanks to God i'm rich and i have what to do with this subjects and the reality of hating them didn't mean that i don't want to learn them it's just lazyness and even if History is borring but i learnd many "Military plans" of France and Nuclear bomb and how they were evil and how was the Islamic world and Othmanian caliph ( you know it's wonderful on this side ) aah and remember that you will someday you will see how lood like an Islamic scintific…

// Ok. My bad. By Islamic Science you only meant the Islamic Theology. //
Yes it's not like it's scinces of life

// Don't change track now. Democracy is the pillar on which this lifestyle and the world of comfort is standing. You remove Democracy, you may still have the rich lifestyle but never the 'comfort' of freedom. Example being the communist Romania, when it existed, and currently North Korea. //
No in Saoudi Arabia they are okay without Democracy 🙂 see "Tallal Prince" he is a rich see his house and you will see that it's lifestyle not Islam or non-ISLAM

// But they have islam!! Isn't that more beautiful than all the rest put together? Foolish girl, these countries don't allow people to migrate and those muslim brothers who come to work there are termed mawwalis!! Thats Islam for you. //
No every one search his benifits , anyway do you know that you care a lot about Muslims me personally i don't care about them if they want to say "Mawalis" or "kawalis" and yes i reconize that i'm fool but thanks to God i have a good brain and a hight intellegence that can't let me choosing the wrong way or having a blind faith without a proof andi know what i'm doing and i like Islam Viva 😉
// Unfortunately the travesty is that these countries can't achieve their potential because of Islam which is a great hindrance in the lack of internal democracy and equality of citizens especially their minorities. //
Haaaaah ?! Islam always tell us about Equality and we must to be Equal and that we must to learn and help Muslims and Islam is never a hindrance NEVER i know Islam veeeery well and i used to learn from you too about my religion and how much it's wonderfull and i used to know a verry important thing that i was ignoring
// Most Latin American countries lack internal democracy and have seen left and center-left governments. //
Muslims have Islam and those contry have nothing because of that they are underdevelopement they need your democracy but when Muslims have Islamic laws they are underdeveloped because they choosed Democracy this is the circle of life choose what is for you

// Then you don't know kids.//
Okay bring me a video when you see them swiming in your contry, your Democratic contry

And i told you that ISIS i hate it because it kill Muslims and have invisible goals and i hate injustice and lies and claiming and Isis System isn't educated they do what subtitels that they heard mayebe ? i don't know anyway i don't support Isis

Quran didn't said to kill them so it's not sure to kill the apostasy and i don't think that a muslim can kill a Muslim because he will go to hell if he didn't have the right to kill him

No Hadiths are always valid but in the similar statu like in Palestine they can do what the Verses says to kill Jews see ?! they are just like the past " killed, kicked out …etc" Jews WHO fight them only

Yes it's ridiculous to have 98,5 % as an avirage while the most people didn't vote i was surprised by their boldness anyway they know what we think because a blind can see it but it gard the Democracy we have Democratic laws and i must to be more careful about what i write anyway
Anyway i will see about Hamas because i heard that many people support them and i don't know i will inform myself more about them then i will tell you my side
And about Taliban i think that i'm in their side because i informed myself about them and see Documentary about them and some interview and meeting and i saw that they are nice people and full of ethics i was surprised i didn't believe that it exist people like them and as what i understand they were occuped by i think Russia and when it get out …. and many things happend and the drugs fields were too much and something with china and people were lost and bla bla bla so they didn't like that but they keep waching but someday a band of people went a village and raped their women so they were mad about this and asked an Imam about what it should happend to those criminals the Imam said that they Must to be killed because they raped many women and make their honor dirty so they get weapons and killed those criminals and from that day they started to bann Drugs field and they let the field to it's owner only if he changed Drugs by another thing and from that day it start and they wanted an Islamic law they didn't wanted democracy because it didn't bann drinking alcohol and adultery and other things that are banned they didn't wanted such a law that let them being sinner and America sent powers to keep Democracy because it had a relation with the president of Afghanistan and some interrest between them so they made bombes and killed kids and women and people in the name of Taliban so people start believing that Taliban is a Terrorist band but by seeing them talking and .. i don't know but i can't think that they are Terrorists they have good goals and they don't kill people they kill American Army wich plant it's nose and i saw American Army afraid and scaried and craying and want to go home because they were afraid of Taliban and they reconnize that they are a big power and American Army didn't want to participate on this war because they don't know why they lose everytime they were happy in the beginning and ready but in the end ^^" they want to go home and many suicide and others became a psy sick and when i saw those " Istishhadiyiin" i was afraid in the beginning when they were going to bombe a truck because i was afraid to see them in the wrong way like others it will be a big lose to see Muslims going by drain and kill others but i was surprised that they only target American base and care to not killing people they never target people or civilian it's just American Army and who fight them only this i had a bad idea about them but after seeing in YouTube i was extremely convinced but i wanted to be more sure so i went someone from them and live in my contry i don't know him well but he told me a lot and they are not bad people and he told me the Goal and it wasn't "Evil" like what America claim and purport about them and i hate injustice and i'm in the side of Taliban they only wanted an Islamic contry wich don't allow drinking alcohol and Audualtery and including to that a raped woman in a Jail 10 times on one night told them to revenge her and they also do this because they shredded the Quran and killed Muslims and many things and because Obama have many interrest he can't stop sacrifating his Army souls for interrest and killing people to make the Honor of Taliban dirty it's stupid and like kids game anyway i wonder how much they are happy and glad and how they are proud i was really an open mouth i learned a lot from them i was talking about Hapinnesse but comparing mine to their happinesse it's nothing their one is more high i don't know why but they are stunning , surprising if i didn't know Islam i would never believe them with a such happinesse but because i know a little bit what they feel i can believe them and they have a big bravery comparing to them i'm a coward u_u Snif * Snif * anyway let's change the Politics subject i don't want to make a story for things that have no benefits

@TnKuK
//Ibn al-Nafis//
Agreed. His work in pulmonary circulation was indeed path breaking.

//Ibn al-Haytham//
Agreed his work on Optics and Opthalmology is path breaking. He also did make some useful contribution to mathematics (My own field so I know a bit).

//Ibn Sina//
Agreed but with a pinch of salt. he was a genius no doubt but a lot of his works are translations or extrapolation of existing Persian, India and Greco-Roman works.

So 3 of the 5 you listed. And although it is humbling to remark on these great scientists and researchers I dare say that these don't match well enough to the tremendous effects of the European Renaissance. It will be very difficult to compare say Ibn al-Haytham's work on perfect numbers with the invention of Calculus by Leibniz/Newton

@TnKuK
//Haha i don't care they say//
Forget it. I have proved that you don't leave in a democratic country. And Thats that. All your ranting about Israel occupying Palestine and US supporting it don't fall in the area of domestic political structure but mostly foreign policy matter for US. Rest of it far beyond what we were discussing in this thread.

//It's the same system i'm convinced by what i study it's just that it take much time and many things in a short time so i must to memorize all those things //
Which only means that you are a poor student. Nothing to do with the subjects themselves.

//Islamic scinces are about "Shariaa"//
Ok. My bad. By Islamic Science you only meant the Islamic Theology.

//Umm .. we don't care the imporatant is not in Democracy it's on lifestyle//
Don't change track now. Democracy is the pillar on which this lifestyle and the world of comfort is standing. You remove Democracy, you may still have the rich lifestyle but never the 'comfort' of freedom. Example being the communist Romania, when it existed, and currently North Korea.

//because they come from a demicratic contry to a democratic other okay//
Not Okay. They come from an Islamic country to a democratic, non-Islamic, developed country. If you can't elect your leader then it is pretty difficult to convince anybody that you live in a democratic country irrespective of whether you call it Democracy.

//Haha ha hah ! those Islamic contry are 1st – like Deserts 2nd- they haven't a Fresh weather 3rd- they are not developed they have good building it's only that//
But they have islam!! Isn't that more beautiful than all the rest put together? Foolish girl, these countries don't allow people to migrate and those muslim brothers who come to work there are termed mawwalis!! Thats Islam for you.

//Islam have no relation it's the rulers who don't want to develope their contry okay//
Unfortunately the travesty is that these countries can't achieve their potential because of Islam which is a great hindrance in the lack of internal democracy and equality of citizens especially their minorities.

//there is many underdevelopement contry not only Islamic for your info's like "Latin America" it's not Islamic at all//
Most Latin American countries lack internal democracy and have seen left and center-left governments.

//Look kids will never swim in a waterfall when they have swiming pool okay//
Then you don't know kids.

// And thank God for that. If Syria is secular today and Christians and Shias are able to survive it is because of Bashar. Otherwise we know what the ISIS is doing in Iraq for example.//
Look no one invited ISIS it invited itself and come and kill Muslims so don't mach ISIS with the FSA and i support the FREE SYRIAN ARMY wich pretect civilian from this Bashar and his "Shabihaa" who kill all civilian and check how do syrian live in syria and see how does people feel while they are in a war and ask kids how do they used to feel when they saw their mothers with a cut head and parts and how do a father feel when he see his kids shouted and bombed and burned and deth by the chimical bombe and i know that you mayebe will never know because you were born in a "Developed contry " and you have never felt how does pain look like and how do a kid feel whil his leg is cuted by the bombe and you must see and Ignorant people say that the FSA are terroriste , really i wonder how does they think with a Pistachio ?! with a bysicle ?! who know ? and they Support Bashar who is doing all this….=_=" waaaaaaaaw they are civilized no?! i prefer to be the most hated person in the world than taking the injustice side and i hate every one who take this side because it's due of interrest , selfishness , impoliteness and stupidity thanks to God i don't have this Problem of being in the injustice side because of a stupide instant desire and i don't want to be loved by people i'm not enough stupid to sell Justice with people stisfation and Syrians didn't want this Bashar but he wanted himself and lied to people and bombe some cars and say that it's the Terrorist of the FSA so …anyway it's annoying to talk about him he don't deserve a story anyway he is weak than my Grandmother's Mother he Just have his evil and some of them cheated Army and he will die anyway even if he didn't want
And the FSA isn't in the side of ISIS okay

Because 1st Christian or others have nothing to do in an Islamic contry and they won't go to an Islamic contry to live they choose alwyas non-Islamic contry and second we have a Jewish women she is known and bla bla bla
//You are missing the Elephant for its tail. A dictatorial North Korea won't open it doors to Muslim refugees in the first place and even if it does it might relegate them to second class citizenship with much curtailed rights. //
It's an example of Normal people non-Muslims or Muslims this is an example of Human to compare between the true point ,it's not about Korea accept or don't i didn't say that the Man is a Muslim and Muslims don't love north Korea anyway
// But then in US, you will be able to vote out that government if what you demonstrate/protest against has a wide enough acceptance. //
It's not like i have many time to wast and wait every 5 years the vote to vote and in the End Obama will re-win anyway i don't care about Obama or anyone i hope a fair man not an interrest man

// You forget that even Islam is imperialist. It started from Arabia, and then your Caliphs spread it by sword to the East and the West for a 1000 years!! Colonialisation and Imperialism are as much a bane of the Christian history as that of Islam. //
NO sorry it is not similar sorry but NO because when you compare how a caliph act and how France and England used to act in those wars it will be never the same the caliph invited them and when they didn't wanted he occupate their contry but they had never the Idea of torturing them and i don't know okay but France and England and similar contry tried Nuclear bombe in our diserts and tortured our nation and steal our things and distroyed our houses , you know i really think that you don't know what a war look like loot at Israel and Palestine you will know how it look like but before it was worst because we were occupated from the strogest contry ( like America now) but it's not America and we sufferd a lot and it killed our savants and kicked them out of their contry and tortured people
don't compare two diffirent goals and don't compare two diffirent situations because it will never be the same and please look what does war look like and swich "on" you imagination to imagine yourself there and see your familly spare parts and the deth smell every where ….anyway

// Why? There already are these 'green' countries!! The problem is that they can't come together and form a big Ummah, Geographically, culturally or socially. Evidence is the non-existence of this Ummah EVER IN HISTORY. Islam is Ummah's greatest enemy. //
No it's not because of Islam because Islam tell us always to be togather but Democracy said "Each country is independent of the other" and create the president system and we used to have a Caliph and who know mayebe it will happen the same in my contry just like Syria but i know that their bloods will not go down the drain i know it and i have confidence of it because Islam will re-make his nation even if the world hated this but it will when Muslims will be true Muslims and i see many true Muslims that i thought that they stop existing such Muslims but they exist and they are brave and they will someday make this nation and stand side by side to fight their enemy and all this is if God want and i have confidence on my God and i feel that it's not far this nation Muslims are getting more brave than before when they used to fight for the fair and for the right and didn't want to be in the case of the injustice and i'm proud it's true that i'm without a benefit and yes i have shame
thanks to God i know that i will help them someday i have a confidence on God

//" I don't really know Taliban and Hamas so i can't tell you my opinion about them can you tell me why they fight ?"//

Simple, they are Islamists, Islam-supremacists, they believe Islam must rule the world, that Shariah-law must be imposed.

A point about Chuck; thank heavens that he defends Democracy so well, yet so concise. Your Country Algeria, is not a Democracy,that's a lie. Bouteflika is a military ruler. I hope you do not get into trouble, tnkuk, by being too open and too critical. 98,5 % winners; it's ridiculous, absurd, an insult to intelligence.

HAMAS has in it's manifest that Israel must be destroyed, they absolutely refuse a 2-state-solution. They massively use the Gazans as human shields and most of the victims are their fault. Israel sends warnings, through phones, leaflets before they bomb. And they bomb because Hamas fires (many) rockets out from ordinary citizens houses with children in them, from hospitals, schools and mosques.

Taliban are the ones that shot Malalah Yusufzai and burned many schools for girls, and shot many girl's teacher. ISIS lately committed many murders and cruelties. There are many atrocities shown on youtube about them. Among them we can see how they shoot dead an APOSTATE, due to another reprehensible shariah-law, deathpenalty for apostasy.

It comes from the Hadiths and surveys show that many Muslims support it. I hope that you in your interpretation are against the deathpenalty for apostasy, tnkuk. But that can only be so if you consider some Hadiths only valid in begintime and not now any more.

The prophet MOhammed clearly was in favor of this deathpenalty for apostasy. It is a VERY UN-DEMOCRATIC law and it goes very much against human rights.

//List down 5 great scientific discoveries done by people from Islamic countries//
Yes
1-"Haneen Ibn Ishaq"
savant and an interpreter and a doctor famous Arabic, was born in the city of "Hira" in Iraq in 810
His book called (ten articles in the eye), where the author is considered the oldest book in ophthalmology in a scientific way
2-"Ibn Masu'ih"
Physician and scientist, was born in 777 in Iraq
He established the first medical school in the Muslim world ..
# Was the first to identify some eye diseases, and the first to put a book on leprosy, and he is one of the first people who wrote in psychiatry ..
3-Ibn al-Nafis
savant and Arab physician, was born in the city of Damascus in Syria in 1213
# Of famous and the most important discoveries in medicine was (micro-circulation) ..
he have A book called (explain anatomy law) contains many anatomical discoveries, and speaks in detail about the disease and physiology .. and this is the book of the most important scientific books upon which the medical renaissance in modern times.
# At Ibn al-Nafis many works and other works, including (destruction in the medical industry), which is the largest medical encyclopedia in history, written by one person!
4-Ibn al-Haytham
Peerless world renowned, his tremendous achievements in various fields of mathematics, physics, ophthalmology, astronomy .. Born in the city of Basra in Iraq in 965
Ibn al-Haytham has a lot of discoveries and business, including:
# Prove that the light comes from objects to the eye and not vice versa as it was believed some of the philosophers of the time, it is said that the credit goes to him in the principles of the invention of the camera, and was the first to explain the eye and explain the functions of each part, and first studied the effects of psychological factors Sight .
# Has a manuscript talking about the impact of the melodies on animals which is one of the oldest manuscripts in this area, where he was beaten several examples on how the effect of music on the behavior of animals through his experiences
# Has more than 200 book when talking about the important issues in various areas of the most famous of these books book landscape .. his work was translated into several languages ​​global
5-"Ibn Sina"
Is the first to discover the parasite hookworm, and the first to describe meningitis, and the first description of the stroke, and the first detection of the modes of transmission of some diseases such as smallpox and measles. He has authored more than a hundred books attest thanks to him and his knowledge of his time to other sciences, and science Ankbabh in embarrassing circumstances. Among the most famous books of healing in medicine and has been translated to several languages​​, and is composed of eighteen volumes which is preserved in the University of Oxford, and also the book of the law in medicine, the author-century atheist century AD and containing a million words, printed in Arabic in Rome in 1539, and remained law-book in reference medicine and medical schools planned for a period of not enjoyed by any medical book before or after, where he remained in use until the seventeenth century, and the book was translated to several languages, including Latin, English and Hebrew.
And many others in math like "Khawarizmi" and such others

// Then it is not Democracy, but a pseudo-democratic country ruled by a despot. //
Haha i don't care they say that i'm in a Democratic contry and it is we have Democratic laws yes and we are 100% Democratic but because of Democracy is depending to interrest it is violed many times like in my contry , including America the proof is Palestine and when the most peaceful and fair man your lovely Obama is on the side of Terrorists and killers and claim "Human rights" and "Justice" Why ??! because he have good relations with Israel and it's a close contry and he can't tell them to stop or to not occupate Palestine and he support the Idea of occupation of Palestine and say that they Must to live side by side …. Stop kidding man it's not like a strange man come to your house and kill your kids and say i don't know if i will stop killing and then he bring his things and put them and choose the best places of the house and do dome changes and bring his wife and kids then Obama come and say "Yes you Must live side by side " …. no comment
// See? I told you that the system doesn't allow you to study such things with conviction. It annoys you, and perhaps disturbs your Islamic ideas (and ideals). //
It's the same system i'm convinced by what i study it's just that it take much time and many things in a short time so i must to memorize all those things ( including 13 other subject wich have more than 10 page a copybook and Historic more than 30 date to memorize ) so it's for that it's annoying and it NEVER disturbs Islamic idea or" Ideals" i have never seen in my life something that was disturbing Islamic Idea because when i go to check it it's always true :p so i don't have to worry

// What is Islamic Science? May be you should list down some teachings from your school curriculum for our benefit. //
Islamic scinces are about "Shariaa" it's not scinces of live and bla bla bla it's about Islam to know his deffirent sides and know what we must to know like praying,ablutions and such things and explaning some Verses of Quran and i will give you some titels of what i used to study : The terms of reference of rulings ,Why do we worship God ,What is worship, Patience ,Honoring one's parents ,Zakat ,Fasting, Prayer ,Good companionship ,Charity ,"Ikram" neighbor ,Hajj and Umrah ,Good morals ,Pillars of Islam ,Pillars of Faith ,Ablutions ,Ten Commandments
The importance of earning Halal,Prevention of arrogance, from the perfection of faith ,The impact of faith in the individual and society Hayat , Politeness with God ,Worship in Islam and Morality of the Qur'an …. etc
and such things

// The lifestyle is a result of the principles of fairness and equity that comes as a package with correct implementation of Democracy. //
Umm .. we don't care the imporatant is not in Democracy it's on lifestyle because they come from a demicratic contry to a democratic other okay the problem isn't in democracy it's on Developement and lifestyle
// Not really. It proves my point that Muslim find 'comfort' in rich, developed, NON-ISLAMIC DEMOCRATIC setups but not in rich, developed, but ISLAMIC setups (Like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or UAE). //
Haha ha hah ! those Islamic contry are 1st – like Deserts 2nd- they haven't a Fresh weather 3rd- they are not developed they have good building it's only that … anyway it's not about Islamic or non it's not about Democracy too it's only about life and lifestyle and because the don't have to learn languages they know how to talk in English and French and similar languages and it's closer to their homes exept America
// Yes, because Islam can't provide the expected development. Simple. //
Islam have no relation it's the rulers who don't want to develope their contry okay and there is many underdevelopement contry not only Islamic for your info's like "Latin America" it's not Islamic at all … anyway it's not ISLAM
//Foolish really. I said "They ALSO swim in waterfall in these countries.". Did I say they only swim in waterfalls? //
Look kids will never swim in a waterfall when they have swiming pool okay they swim there when they don't have were to swim and their parents can't take them to the beach okay and can you give me a picture of a kid swiming in a water fall in America or France..anyway

//Now you are saying that it's democracy is who make them working better =_=" and aspire them to be good footballers hah ?! seriously ?//
Off course. It is democracy, secularity and equitable treatment of people which allowed refugee muslims to access these coaches and programs which made them successful. We find people from the weaker and downtrodden successful in these countries but we don't find such success in minorities in Muslim dominated countries. Contrast this with, for example, how many prominent Christians , Sikhs, Parsis or Hindus, can you list down from all Muslim dominated countries combined?

//you go to north Korea ( wich is Dectatory ) and you put there a simple player with a Good coach//
You are missing the Elephant for its tail. A dictatorial North Korea won't open it doors to Muslim refugees in the first place and even if it does it might relegate them to second class citizenship with much curtailed rights.

//America behind the white house and do Demonstartion about Israel they will Ignore me and don't paye attention and you say Democracy//
But then in US, you will be able to vote out that government if what you demonstrate/protest against has a wide enough acceptance.

//it's interrest with some Justis rules that was created to ORGANIZE a part people ( all the world exept Muslims ) wich were controled by the Church wich made them retarded more than 1000 year//
You forget that even Islam is imperialist. It started from Arabia, and then your Caliphs spread it by sword to the East and the West for a 1000 years!! Colonialisation and Imperialism are as much a bane of the Christian history as that of Islam.

//it's true that it's my Imagination right now//
Why? There already are these 'green' countries!! The problem is that they can't come together and form a big Ummah, Geographically, culturally or socially. Evidence is the non-existence of this Ummah EVER IN HISTORY. Islam is Ummah's greatest enemy.

//Yes and this proove that the problem Isn't in Democracy it's in the means and in the contry itself and the problem isn't in the person it's in the place were he live//
This proves that Muslims in non-muslim countries are better off than they are in Islamic countries. Yes the problem is in the society they are living in, one is Islamic and the other is secular or at least Non-Islamic. I gave you examples from three countries now, one developed but secular (Switzerland), the other staunchly Jewish (Israel) and the the third secular, democratic, even though under-developed (India). On the other hand look at the Christian minorities of Saudi Arabia, or the Hindus of Bangladesh and Pakistan.

//Ha ha what a nice idea ! yes we go and vote but it's without a benefits the vote is made from the begining//
Then you do not live in a democratic country. Simple.

//were syria wanted to be opposite to Bashar but he won even if the whole nation is opposit to him//
And thank God for that. If Syria is secular today and Christians and Shias are able to survive it is because of Bashar. Otherwise we know what the ISIS is doing in Iraq for example.

@TnKuK
//It's Democratic and even if you vote or not he is the winner and the surprise is that he win with 98.45 %//
Then it is not Democracy, but a pseudo-democratic country ruled by a despot.

//of course it's not Nominally do you know what i used to study it was annoying to study all those things//
See? I told you that the system doesn't allow you to study such things with conviction. It annoys you, and perhaps disturbs your Islamic ideas (and ideals).

//Islamic scinces never undone something it's always the same thing and we had no problem or confusion between Islamic scinces//
What is Islamic Science? May be you should list down some teachings from your school curriculum for our benefit.

//if you think that we are afraid of scinces we are not come and see by yourself we study just like you and have just like you and many Muslims used to work//
Good for you.

// It's Not my problem no one said that it's about Democracy it's about lifestyle //
The lifestyle is a result of the principles of fairness and equity that comes as a package with correct implementation of Democracy.

// No this prove my point that the problem isn't in Islam or Democracy it's in their contry itself wich is underdevelopement one //
Not really. It proves my point that Muslim find 'comfort' in rich, developed, NON-ISLAMIC DEMOCRATIC setups but not in rich, developed, but ISLAMIC setups (Like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or UAE).

//Muslims start Migrating when they thought that they don't have the expected developement and wanted means//
Yes, because Islam can't provide the expected development. Simple.

//// They also swim in waterfall in these countries. // really ? but i have never seen them because i think that Developed contries have the posibilty to give kids swimming pool//
Foolish really. I said "They ALSO swim in waterfall in these countries.". Did I say they only swim in waterfalls?

//it's not with details but if you want details i will give you just ask or see by their names what they did and you will see//
I asked about 5 great discoveries/invention. A list of prominent personalities won't do. List down 5 great scientific discoveries done by people from Islamic countries in the, roughly, 1000 years that Islamic countries were the major powers (From aroun 700 AD to 1700 AD). Something that matches well with say, the Theory of Gravity, or Helio-Centric model, or the Printing Press.

Demsi
/It should be no problem that "broadminded" Muslims migrate into the West in big numbers, but isn't it logical that Westerners worry AND that the Japanese FORBID Islamic immigration /
It is true the Japanese keep Muslims miles away from them!!. Though religion has nothing to do with their life,all follow Buddhist+Shinto combination.Each Japanese however follow Buddhist rituals during death.The Buddhist temples at Nara and Kyoto are older than Islam and Mohammed.The Japanese least care for Islam .Sometime back a Saudi Businessman went to Japan –at the air port his wife was told to take her veil.The Saudi man got furious ,he threatened the officer that he will shoot him .You know what happened next ,both the Saudi man and his wife were bundled off and sent back by return flight. I love Japanese people ,because they live in constant fear of death ,yet marching ahead with rapid progress,so brave.Some time back ,there's was the second biggest economy in the world.Average Japanese lives more then hundred years.They seldom go after God–in a sense they are true disciples of Lord Buddha.

Ps: i don't mean by racisme all Japan Nation it's only few people who are afraid of terrorisme and think that the whole Islam is like that and i have an experiance of Japenese people and they are the most nation known by their good ethics and i reconize it and i'm a fan of Japan in this good part of them ….

I believe in fair , i don't care about the nationality or the religion if a Muslim did something wrong then i will never be in his side because God told us to be fair even if it was with your family if they did a mistake you shouldn't follow them but you mist to show them the truth and try to convince them and in Islam we have a strict punishment in the Judgment day for who was Injuste and everyone who support his Injustice even if it was a Savant

The free syrian Army didn't wanted to fight they hate war but they are obligated to make their contry free and save their kids and women and they have no attention to fight or help fighters they just want to get back their precious contry … they want to end this was and make Injustice falling down this is all it's not like they fight because they want …

And this "Daash" wich is called i think IS is starnge and i can't understand them because i think that they make Islam dirty by killing Muslims and i don't know what they are doing and i'm with the free Syrian Army Vs Assad and Hizbollah and Iran i think because i'm with the oppressed Syrians who are killed without a reason like kids and women and men and many innocent that they were bombed by Assad and whe Hisbolah is with Assah ( even if i suport him in Palestine) but i will never support him in Syria when he is with Bashar's Army who are injuste with innocent people and kids and babies …etc and making them daying of hunger and cold and no electrecity including water with no houses and no peace they can die in every moment bombed including in school and it's difficlult and injust

I don't know about Japan but America must worry because it's the center of Jsutice of the world as the claim and it must react to every such things and subjects and anyway i know some people that went to Japan for study but they didn't thought about living there because they say that Japan is danger because of the Natural disaster and i know some people who went to live there and they are okay .. anyway Japan i think that they are afraid of Terrorisme and are i think raciste about Muslims and you know there is the good and the bad every were including arabic Contries

And i know that Muslims will take the fair side the right one and who know who will be the right side in the future

Just like in Palestin who thought that America will be in the side of the injuste one me personally i thought it from the begining but it was a surprise for some Muslims that had confidence on Obama and he said that he help israel because of their relation and i told you that it's interrest not Democracy or right's or Humanity ….. anyway

@TnKuK
So Hindus worship some human made…… ,and you don't believe their many God worshiping .Well !, but they say how can you prove there is only one God? ,because after all your claim too is based on belief.Unless you practically show them –there is only one God ,how can you say that there are not many God ?.
Now both those woman are making marry about your prophet ,Allah and the Deen here on this site ,yet you are not refuting their onslaught on Islam , very strange!. Perhaps you know– this site is existing for peeling Mohammed and his philosophy Islam–and you are here to defend him and his deen!!. Then why the hesitations ?. Your reply shows ;you don't have any confidence in your belief.

Thank you , Me personally i serf on the net i haven't a special newspaper because to see the truth you must to see proofs and you can't get the extremely truth by newspapers so i prefere a Youtube video as a proof and such things but Al Arabiya is a good newspaper

I don't really know Taliban and Hamas so i can't tell you my opinion about them can you tell me why they fight ? ; and about Boko Haram i told you and ISIS is-it "Daash" ? if it's "Daash" i think that they make Islam dirty and kill Maliki and i don't support them at all .. and Taliban and Hamas i don't know them well so i can't Judge them please can you tell me why they fight ?

No i don't think that Muslims learn to hate Democracy because we look to Democracy as a law wich organize nations that don't have a law and i look to it as a thing that non-Muslims need but Muslims have Islam it's because of that they prefer Islamic law and it's like democracy exept in some laws that are special for who belong to the religion and who have duties in life as a Muslim and this Islamic law is for who accepted it and for someone who belong to Islam and God Always talk with us he never said that non-Muslims must pray or must do "Zakat" and such things so this laws are for Muslims and we can't compare it with a democratic law wich is for many people from many religions it's general not presized like Islam is presized to Muslims so it laws are confortable only for Muslims ….. and God is who know and because Democracy give Muslims the major laws it's not combining with his religion so there is something that are allowed in Democracy and forbiden in Islam includng the punishment of every one so many Muslims now violate some Islamic laws and this is "i think" why Muslims prefer Islamic laws because it's presized to muslims according to their religion and it's fair anyway it's not verry deffirent from the equality system…

And i told you that i hate to be unjuste so i do my best to know the truth and who is the sinner so i can't say an opinian whithout being sure and if Muslims did something bad i will tell you that i'm not with them if it was bad but if they are right i will tell you that i support them i hate unjustice, God told us to be Always with the right side and never be with the sinner side ( some thing like that ) conclution : being fair

Yes and i don't care about with whome side i'm i care about being fair and being on the right side the fair one

// I will vote him out in the next election. And if you say that voting isn't effective in your country then off course you are not living in a democratic country. //
It's Democratic and even if you vote or not he is the winner and the surprise is that he win with 98.45 % waaw great even if the most nation didn't vote this year wow i can stop voting they vote by themselves but we are Democratic and we go to vote and it's the same….

// Only nominally perhaps. If the education system provides proper scientific education then at least there will be some results to show. Your kids learn something perhaps but then that is undone by the "Islamic science" classes I think. Are you taught what Evolution is, why it is considered a viable option to describe how a variety of species came into being? //

Hahh ?! of course it's not Nominally do you know what i used to study it was annoying to study all those things and it was overflowing and i told you that we study just like you and your western contry and Islamic scinces never undone something it's always the same thing and we had no problem or confusion between Islamic scinces and Scinces and we study about your lovely America , Europe , Asia And Japan .. etc and politic things…. ,Economy and chemistry just like you okay never think that Islam undone scinces Never and Quran didn't say something wich undone scinces including the "spherical Earth" and Islam obligate us to LEARN in diffirent things including scinces if you think that we are afraid of scinces we are not come and see by yourself we study just like you and have just like you and many Muslims used to work with French people and English ones and they used to come to Islamic contries many times because they want to work with Muslims and i know a french wich work with Muslims wich is just like you from Darwinisme and they work togather and they are good Friends and there is no relation with Islamor Darwinisme =_=" so you are imagining a lot please correct your imagination

It's Not my problem no one said that it's about Democracy it's about lifestyle
//And they can't get that in Islamic countries. That proves my point. //
No this prove my point that the problem isn't in Islam or Democracy it's in their contry itself wich is underdevelopement one
// These countries didn't automatically became comfortable to live. Europe was one of the toughest place to live till the 17th century. It was the advent of democracy that made people to participate more, offered freedom of expression which developed free thinking and critical reasoning, even at times independent of the prevalent religion. These comforts were won by the public participation in the socio-ethical framework and the resulting development of science. //
Muslims start Migrating when they thought that they don't have the expected developement and wanted means so they were obligated to migrate and when they were in war and while the occupation of your lovely western contries and Eeuropian one okay
// They also swim in waterfall in these countries. // really ? but i have never seen them because i think that Developed contries have the posibilty to give kids swimming pool i didn't knew that Developed cantries are too selfish to let kids swim in a waterfall while they can make 15 milion swimming pool
// Kindly list down 5 such discoveries.//
Yes i will give you " http://www.famousscientists.org/famous-muslim-ara… " and it's not with details but if you want details i will give you just ask or see by their names what they did and you will see
Now you are saying that it's democracy is who make them working better =_=" and aspire them to be good footballers hah ?! seriously ?! it's always about your Coach and facilities available it's the only thing and Democracy will do nothig in you bring a simple or even good player in a democratic contry and you give him the worst Coach and no facilities done for 1 year and you go to north Korea ( wich is Dectatory ) and you put there a simple player with a Good coach with means what will happend according to you ?! of course the one who lived in the Dectatorian contry will win
// See, you yourself think that women shouldn't have a political voice!!! Off course you can demonstrate. You say that you are in a democracy then that provides you the opportunity to dethrone your president by means of voting against him/her. //
Haha i talk about Democracy my "Democratic contry" you can check by yourself if it's Democratic and even if i went to America behind the white house and do Demonstartion about Israel they will Ignore me and don't paye attention and you say Democracy ?! it's interrest with some Justis rules that was created to ORGANIZE a part people ( all the world exept Muslims ) wich were controled by the Church wich made them retarded more than 1000 year and in a simple world "Churchian Dectatory " wich was killing savants because they were oppisite to it in scinces while Muslims were in a satisfation about the wonderful organization of Islamic laws … and i islam we accept the opinion of the hight number of an Opinion it's like VOte ..
// Could you tell me where this country will be Geographically located? //
Yes , i will tell you bring a world map and color with the green every Islamic contry and you will get a biiiiig Area this will be the big contry it's true that it's my Imagination right now but it will happend someday i know

// Off course these are geographically close countries with similar environments and hence we should be able to compare their GDP. The data shows that the per capita GDP of an Arab in Israel is better than how they perform in a comparable Muslim majority nation. That does indicate something. //
Yes and this proove that the problem Isn't in Democracy it's in the means and in the contry itself and the problem isn't in the person it's in the place were he live…

// Instead of burning themselves they should have simply used their right to vote and vote out the current government.//
Ha ha what a nice idea ! yes we go and vote but it's without a benefits the vote is made from the begining and no one can win exept the person that have been chosen from the " Invisible hand " even if the whole nation knew it but they are afraid of Terrorisme so they keep walking on this stupid system without a said word including other Arabic contry like Syria and Egypt … etc were syria wanted to be opposite to Bashar but he won even if the whole nation is opposit to him ( exept some Shiaa and Christian ) … anyway

Thank you for your proposal and i have seen their names but i didn't talk with "Grace " "i think" i'm not sure anyway i'm not interrested by Hunduism because i can't worship something Human-made and i can't belives their claims of Many Gods and that they life in this earth and it's not my way Hinduism …..

And about Catholic i'm not interrested too because it's similar to Christian i think and i don't belive in Christian i prefer to believe in one God it's more logical and good…

And i know Democracy because we live in a democratic contry so we are obligated to study about democracy at the primary school so, i know Democracy and bla bla bla things of the system and some laws …. etc

And i really don't have time if i had i would talk with them too why not ! but i have many duties that i must Complet before the Vacation end (stay 1 month ) so it's not the right time to talk with them mayebe someday

Hello Sakat, I second your proposal. and I daresay that tnkuk has something to respond in the article about Khomeiny and child marriage in or under Islam, that has opened recently. Supriya and Grace are already there.

And for tnkuk; I daresay that many Westerners, and Ali Sina too, are convinced that Islam cannot just co-exist and be tolerant like Christianity and Hinduism, and other religions or life-convictions can. And that you can TRY to prove them wrong. In my view the political battle, that of tolerance & co-existing peacefully and fairly against the Intolerant supremacist Muslims, or Nazi's, has the highest priority.

After that let Science and Islam battle it out, on the points they disagree.

A few extra points; Our corner also rejects totalitarians like Nazi's, communists, just like we ask you to reject totalitarian Muslims.

I will openly admit that, although I am against all war, I am grateful that the Caliphate, IS (formerly ISIS) has begun to attack Assad's forces in Al-Shaer-oilfield, Syria, while they also fight Maliki of Iraq. and so indirectly IS fights Iran; totalitarians against totalitarians. I think the Free Syrian Army now better join forces with our friends the Kurds (who incidentally have women as a third of their fighters!) and let Assad/ Iran/ Hezbollah battle it out with IS!

And : When it comes the increasingly cooperating Chinese and Russians, please at least stay neutral, don't side with them against our corner, when they favor the Islamist corner, which they at times do.

It should be no problem that "broadminded" Muslims migrate into the West in big numbers, but isn't it logical that Westerners worry AND that the Japanese FORBID Islamic immigration

IF: Muslims in large numbers choose for the totalitarian Islamic corner against the democratic corner, due to Islamist heavy propaganda???

I appreciate your reaction very much, thank you. I am thinking about this and about the conflicts going on in the Middle East all the time. and of course reading about it too. I like the Israeli Newspapers/ -sites, but also the independent newspapers/ sites and even Al Arabiya. What do you read?

Please consider this " triangle"; In one corner: The West, Democratic countries as one bloc, my corner. In the second corner; Those Islamists, like ISIS, Hamas, Boko Haram, Taliban, Iran's Ayatollahs and Mullahs.

In the 3rd corner, your corner, there are the vast majority of Muslims, the more broad-minded ones, close to democracy, acknowledging human rights.

In short I hope that your corner and mine unite against the radical Islamist corner. Those Islamists still seem to insist to let Islam rule ALL THE WORLD. And they use very cruel violent methods, methods YOU say are UN-ISLAMIC.

My corner is perfectly content with Islamic countries co-existing with their own. My corner, at the same time, appeals to very many people, with bright, independent minds and is therefore very strong. Can even the combined forces of all Muslims ever succeed against our might??? Therefore should your corner not give up on a hopeless fight???

Now I think that somehow your corner is indoctrinated by the Islamists to hate and distrust the democratic corner. And that that is why you oppose and hesitate to join our corner. I hope that you read from all sides, as we allow and try to do, then "bury the hatchet" with the democratic corner and together with it oppose the Islamist corner. And I think that that is what the Egyptians are beginning to do.

I know that the world is infinitely more complex, but that does not make my scheme untrue.

@ TnKuK
/Umm did you know that i'm not a man and what i'm supossed to do ?? ! doing demonstrations for example ? ! and were i will let them i have no contry i'm not a president and this Nation will be created only by one thing wich is to combine all Islamic contry with a huge area ( all contries one ) and with one Caliph a one that we choose okay and it won't be done with those selfish Presidents /
You said you are a woman! .Do you know two more woman are here presently ? and they are representing their religions on this platform.1. Her name is Supriya ,an engineer and doing her masters degree– she is representing her religion Hinduism–and knows perhaps your religion fairly well!.2. A Catholic her name is Grace,she had finished her tertiary education–occasionally you might have come across her. I wish you should engage both of them for discussion ,to know which religion is better and why ?,and what exactly 'Democracy' is .I hope you will consider my proposal!.

@TnKuK
//you will Migrate or you will suicide or you will continue walking in this stupid system ? //
I will vote him out in the next election. And if you say that voting isn't effective in your country then off course you are not living in a democratic country.

//Yes Childs of my Contry go to School and learn only sciance and math and Arabic + French and English//
:-). Only nominally perhaps. If the education system provides proper scientific education then at least there will be some results to show. Your kids learn something perhaps but then that is undone by the "Islamic science" classes I think. Are you taught what Evolution is, why it is considered a viable option to describe how a variety of species came into being?

@TnKuK
//So you say that you can go to live in America desert because of Democracy ?//
Well, many Muslims are doing exactly that. This is from a Pew Forum: Between 1992 and 2012, a total of about 1.7 million Muslims entered the U.S. as legal permanent residents. That constitutes a large portion of the overall U.S. Muslim population (estimated at 2.75 million as of 2011).

//look they want a confortable life this is all //
And they can't get that in Islamic countries. That proves my point.

//you think that they Go to western contry because of Democracy and being free no it have two reasons 1- Confortable life or 2- sciances this is all//
:-). These countries didn't automatically became comfortable to live. Europe was one of the toughest place to live till the 17th century. It was the advent of democracy that made people to participate more, offered freedom of expression which developed free thinking and critical reasoning, even at times independent of the prevalent religion. These comforts were won by the public participation in the socio-ethical framework and the resulting development of science.

//children who can swim in a waterfall it's more free than your lovely contries .. //
They also swim in waterfall in these countries.

//while Muslims were progressing and discovering things in all areas and subjects//
Kindly list down 5 such discoveries.

//it's not like those two Albanian worked better because of Democracy they worked better because of the goot trainer and because of the facilities available okay it have no relation with Democracy and free and Islam or non-Islam//
:-). Yes but it was existence of democracy and such human values which allowed Muslims to go for what they like to aspire for. The opposite doesn't happen.

//Umm did you know that i'm not a man and what i'm supossed to do ?? ! doing demonstrations for example ?//
See, you yourself think that women shouldn't have a political voice!!! Off course you can demonstrate. You say that you are in a democracy then that provides you the opportunity to dethrone your president by means of voting against him/her.

//is Nation will be created only by one thing wich is to combine all Islamic contry//
Could you tell me where this country will be Geographically located?

//Don't compare GDP because it have no relation with Islam it is depanding to the contry itself and how does it work there okay //
Off course these are geographically close countries with similar environments and hence we should be able to compare their GDP. The data shows that the per capita GDP of an Arab in Israel is better than how they perform in a comparable Muslim majority nation. That does indicate something.

//you will be ignored many people burned Themselves and no one care about it and it's a turned page //
🙂 Instead of burning themselves they should have simply used their right to vote and vote out the current government.

There is only one person influanced by me and she do what she want but she is happy and assured
and Islam teach us to work hard , sincerely ,fairly and in case of God to help many people and the price it's God who will give you your prize and working hard is payed and beneficial for every one and i told you that i don't want the instant happinesse the false one wich is related with desire and suffering pain i know that every one have his own painful stage in his life and i think that suffering for who you love is enjoyable it's true that it's pain but you are happy because it's for who you love and you didn't see that you are able to do every thing for who you love ?

For me i choosed my way and i'm working on it and i have confidence in God that he will help me to help Muslims and others anyway i want to be beneficial to Muslims after my deth i hate to be with non-benefit it's a shame

I know that i won't have Children but "if" i had or adopt or i don't know i would give them an Islamic discipline and education and when they will be in 15 or 14 years old or younger i would give them the conclution and the base and laws and believing of every religion and tell them to choose Islam or one of those religions and i will see , me personally i think that they will choose Islam because my mother friend have kids and she live in America were there is no Muslims in their school and she have young kids from 7 to 10 years old and they still loving Islam and they didn't wanted to change they are satisfated and they go to the Mosque sometimes they are young but they don't want to change including her 5 years old kid …. anyway they MusT to choose and i know that they will hate nothing in Islam

Yes i'm fatalist and it's an islamic upbringing but i really believe even if it wasn't an Islamic upbringing and yes they are like that but Savants are verry cultured and know a lot and more and have a strongest faith than us , and i don't think that i'm influaced because this is a feeling and feeling can't influance because it's depanding to you i remember when we were teached about this subject and the teacher told us what does it mean fatalisme and we were convinced because for us it was a simple thing for God and it will happen what God want and everything is writen and being and will be and it's not like influence because its depanding to you and how you think and really there is many things that prove you this that fatalisme is true when a plane fell in my contry everyone was killed and burned and people were deffused in many plaaces it was scary and one man is Alive until now and many other things that tell you that you have a date to die if this date didn't come so you won'tdie before it it's also rassurant and many other things
I told you also that i don't believe anything i need proofs even if a Savant tell me something i wait the proof from Q-H and they always give proofs including "Ibn El-Qayim" and such great Savants

Me personelly i'm not interrested on other religions and it's not confortable for be because my minde isn't with my heart when i see somethings in those religions even if i want to believe but my minde can't believe so it still like "twho magnet side identical shipment" so it will always an aversion certenely Christian and Jewish including Buddhist and for Darwinisme i'm not convinced because of our existance and many things and after deth and …. it's strange to be just like that without a reason and because i don't have a reason to exist i don't know what i will do but Because i'm Muslim i have a reason to exist and i like it and i'm convinced about Quran and i won't lie sometimes i was confused about some subjects of sciance in Quran but in the end it was wonderful because i fond the truth and it was in agreement of Quran so i'm convinced again and if Quran say about this sciances subject it's only for being checked to give you more faith

Look Mr,Demsci i told you that i'm objective i can't move with my emotion i don't care about friends or someone else i have only one reason to exist wich is God and of course he told us to see his creation and check them and i would do so and i'm not from the kind of people that live and must have friend and noisy things i'm in this life to do a big work so i don't have time for friends and such things i'm too busy in a way that i don't have time to talk with any one and without forget the" coming soon" work so people can't infuluance me in a way that i couldn't go far because of them i don't care if i lost them or i will i need only good friend to teach me new things and make me remember what i forget and what i have to do and those who are close to God and cultured on Islam and i lost many friend because they were without a benefit for me it was only a noisy relation with talking about non-beneficial things …..

//" Islam isn't worst lifestyle it's wonderful according to me and Muslims and i know that there is some worst and scaring lifestyles really and completely deffirent from Islam "//

YES, OK. I can agree that there are WORSE Lifestyles than Islam and also WORSE governmentsystems than Islam. YOU DO HAVE SOMETHING VALUABLE.

But there is so much I want to respond to in what you write. And Chuck is really holding out a "mirror" to you. And in the long run you and hopefully your children + surrounding may prophit from it. As we should learn from you too, and we do, we now see how many Muslims think.

Chuck said you were a "fatalist". And I recognized it too. Because you wrote that the world is getting worse, that life is "ugly" and any way very short. and you wrote you were much more focussed on the afterlife than this life, which was only a test you said. It reminds me of an "inch allah" fatalist attitude.

Now, and is this "fatalist attitude" caused by your Islamic upbringing or is it not? Is your family and community and of course are your "savants" like that, were you not influenced heavily by them?

In this context I like to say to you that there are also BETTER lifestyles than Islam! Or maybe there are better lifestyles in combination with a part of Islam that you can keep?

And you may consider that instead of losing something precious, parts of Islam, there is so much that you can learn and add to your personality in your hopefully long life. And this is not only about you, but also about your children and those with whom you come into contact.

Yes, your happiness is in your heart, and the search for truth is in your mind. But that happiness you can find with some other convictions about the truth in your mind.

You may think you loose the happiness and many of your friends and advantages of Islam when you go boldly and bravely for the highest truth you can find.

But not only you eventually get back happiness, friends, advantages, but also those who are influenced by you.

and so what if YOU suffer pain in searching for higher truth, in your short life (said you), BUT your search for truth and better lifestyles will benefit future generations a little bit?

Remember, somewhere in the line of your ancestors, some person changed INTO believing in Islam, and by the same token, your descendants may believe in something better than Islam!

we have working women you can check by yourself in all kinds of work certenely in Hospital and a Quatstion what will you do if your president don't care about your developement and you don't know what he is doing ? you will Migrate or you will suicide or you will continue walking in this stupid system ?
Yes Childs of my Contry go to School and learn only sciance and math and Arabic + French and English and "Islamic sciance" is a secondary Subject we have 1 h per week including Kids and the rest is only math ( i think 6 h per week ) and History and Geography and bal bla bla and many kids go to the Mosque to learn Quran and most of them lost the chance because they study a lot and when they saw that Study have no attention in their contry they just faile and let it and now we have more than 60% of the popularity Youth but without a work and without a study only some of them who were obligated becuase of their family bad life and sometimes because of their strict Family if you think that i was teached only Islamic sciances you are wrong i used to study Math 6 hours per week and sciances 5 hour a week and Technologie 1 time a week and Islamic sciances 1 time per week and Physic 5h a week and drawing and Music and others bla bla bla it's borring all those things at one time we study like in France but with Arabic it's the only diffirance
And don't ask me id Kids have idea of Jews and Christians because Jews and Christiand won't say look to islam it's like that but their family tell them about the deffirence between the religions because we have to study in History about the cross war and bla bla bla and they must to know what does Buddhists worship they are all time surprised including me when i thought about Christians and Buddhists and i think that we had a Christian teacher i don't know how but she was talking about strange things about God that was completelly not in my religion because she was talking about a son and i don't know but Thanks to God i was a big thinker in my childhood and i thought that she was bla bla bla so i didn't paye her attention but now my cousin told me that she head a teacher saying the same things it's a strange teacher
And my contry's problem is due of negligence and other secrets that i can't tell you

So you say that you can go to live in America desert because of Democracy ? look they want a confortable life this is all and you think that they Go to western contry because of Democracy and being free no it have two reasons 1- Confortable life or 2- sciances this is all..
i know many Migrant who went there ( France, England , Spain , Australia ( Syndey) , America , Germany and Italy ) and they all went for Work and to be more confortable in a "developed contry" it's the only thing it's not like they Go there to talk about Islam and do what they want because in underdevelopement contry you can do what you want and say what you want and no one will care about you ( exept if it's about terrorizme and such things ) including children who can swim in a waterfall it's more free than your lovely contries ..

Yes because i will tell you why and i will tell you the same of what i said to Sakat he asked me a similar Quation

II Look when the Church was the ruler of the Christian world and such you and your contries were retarded more than 1000 year okay you were underveloped while Muslims were progressing and discovering things in all areas and subjects while your savants were killed by the Church because they were saying something that is opposite to the religion okay and when renaissance appears they kicket the Church out of derigate the world and i think that it start from German were they looked at the Church mistakes and such things i have study this about the Europian renaissance okay then they create Democracy and were it start geting good and now Islamic contries were in war where they lost their savants and posibility and become underdevelopement My contry is an example while the western contries were doing plans to occupate them like France and England for Egypt and Algeria and …… etc and they tooked a lot and developed themselves and their contries and Islamic ones like my contry lost every thing from war and because we had bad presidents they do what they want and don't help us to develope ourselves or to pregress in our research they are selfish they think about money and how is their relation with western Contries and the world and they are Dectatory in a cover of Democracy and when you and your Christians were developing yourselves our contries used to be in war and we were fighting to be alive and suffering ….. etc it's a long story II
Eum the team of my contry is the 13 th and they are here and they did a good work for an Arabian team okay and it's not like those two Albanian worked better because of Democracy they worked better because of the goot trainer and because of the facilities available okay it have no relation with Democracy and free and Islam or non-Islam

Umm did you know that i'm not a man and what i'm supossed to do ?? ! doing demonstrations for example ? ! and were i will let them i have no contry i'm not a president and this Nation will be created only by one thing wich is to combine all Islamic contry with a huge area ( all contries one ) and with one Caliph a one that we choose okay and it won't be done with those selfish Presidents

And this nation is For peace and Islam not to make a war like kids and i think that if it was only Sunni it will be better and we let Shia in their contry and they do what they want … but we must to stay Allies

Don't compare GDP because it have no relation with Islam it is depanding to the contry itself and how does it work there okay
And yes "my President doesn't represent me" but he represent the contry that he rule and he choosed Democracy and we are Underdevelopement yes and we are living in a Democratic Contry and we have Democtatic laws we are obligated to follow because there is not another thing to do or to say you will be ignored many people burned Themeselves and no one care about it and it's a turned page

@TnKuK
//Umm can you compare between the Weather of Saoudi and the //Holland//
Ha ha. One is too hot and one is too cold I guess at times:-). But I don't it is weather that affects such decisions.

//Islamic contry are all the same don't think that there is a developed one //
And why is that? It can't be a Masonic conspiracy in all countries!! I blame Islam for the misery of most of these countries. Islam doesn't allow you to think freely and makes a fatalist out of you (You are an example). There are a lot of good things in life to pursue, so many things to achieve but Islam stifles these opportunities. Some of your same Muslims brothers actually excel when they come to these free, democratic countries. Just as an example, see the Swiss football team. They are ranked 9th in the world and there star players are Mehmedi and Shaqiri, muslims and migrants (Both are Albanians).

//No thank you i prefer that the Islamic world create a united nation//
So go ahead and create it. I tell you what, at no point in the history there was one united Ummah. And the greatest hindrance to it doesn't come from the Jews or the Christians. It comes from Islam itself. In all Islamic countries that are facing troubles the problems are between sects, Sunnis over-running Shias in Iraq, Shias prosecuting Sunnis in Iran, Sunnis killing Ahamadiyas in Pakistan and Indonesia….the list is endless and it is so since the days of Muawiya and Ali. If most Islamic states are in pathetic states blame Islam for it. Because we see Muslims doing doing relatively better in places where they are in minority (Example: (Data from 2012)The Arab GDP in Israel was $6450, which is better than the GDP per capita of Jordan ($5900) as well as that of Egypt ($6540), both Muslim majority countries. Another example: the Indian muslims, despite being in minority, are in far better state than the Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh). And I can keep on throwing more and more data at you.

// WE ARE DEMOCRATIC just like you//
:-). A few posts back you were saying that your president doesn't represent you. How is then your country democratic?

//we haven't the suffisant Developement//
Have you thought why you don't have sufficient development? What is stopping half of your population, the women to get into the workforce and contribute to the Gross National Income? A poor, underdeveloped nation needs all its able citizens to contribute. Are your children going to proper schools where they are taught science, maths and technology even if those ideas are in contradiction to Islam? Are your children taught about different religions, the religious ideas of Jews, the great contribution of the Hindus and Buddhists, the cultural impact of Christians in Europe, the message of Universal Brotherhood of the Bahais etc? Think deeply and you will find what ails your country.

For me i choose the Justice i like to be juste and i will never take a side of an unjuste even if he is Muslim i hate injustice and Quran is like democracy exept few laws that i'm satisfated about and this laws are diffirent from democracy because it's a religion laws not Humanity laws it's special for those who follow the religion and it's not valid on the non-follower of the religion so we can't compare Democracy with Islamic rules in all ways …

And if you are talking about Egypt MuslimsBrotherhood i don't think that they are anti-Democratic i think that they were violed because they wanted Morsi as a president me too i wanted morsy because i think that he is a true Muslim and a good man who is loved and many Christians of Egypt wanted him and were with the demonstaration of "Rabiaa El-Adawiya " And they were peaceful they had no weapons but the CC killed them and burned that hospital and such kids game from him andi saw how they were killed and the News were lying a lot and saying about Brotherhood who wanted Morsi and i hate unjustice they could ignore them but not killing them and claiming the peace and make their name dirty …

You know politics are full of secrets i can't tell you my contry secrets because it will end verry bad for me but it's full of secrets that you will never expect and you can't believe the selfishness and the evilness …

And caliphs system isn't hereditary because prophet gived us to choose by " Shura" there is no Hereditary because this Hereditary is who ended the true Caliphs and who merite and who made confution and conflict and yes not daughters a girl can't be a caliph

It's you who have democracy as a law but Muslims must to follow Islamic laws according to their religion and they have many works but Democracy is for the groupe of Humans that don't have laws to follow and don't know what to do but Islamic laws are just for a group of human who have choosed to be Muslims and follow Islam and are satisfated about Islamic laws and accept it

Yes because they weren't cultured enought to can interpret Quran in the right way and i think that they didn't had time to be more cultured about what islam banned and what he allowed like their strange idea of selling girls on the market -_-" i was surprised how could we call them Sunni while many Muslims don't know them and no one help them and they think that they will go to a paradise with their works no one can be sure because i think that they are not "Shahid" because they are fighting in the wrong place they can go to borma or Palestine were Muslims are suffering like the past killed and bombed and kicked out from their houses and tortured it's more right to fight there than Pakistan and ..etc were Christians aren't killing Muslims or kicking them out of their houses i hate to be unjuste and i don't support every one

How could i feel How Great Is Allah without searching in Quran and understanding and comparing with sciances i do it all the time and for this i want to give my life to sciance in case of Quran ( and let's close the Kids subject i don't have time for them ) and i expect a big evoluation in Medecines and such things i'm really exited to start my research because i Must to see how Great is God and he told us to see in his creations and many things and don't think that i'm a Blind follower no no no i want to see if it's true i know it's true but to make me more confidente and sure and convinced and believing …

Islam isn't worst lifestyle it's wonderful according to me and Muslims and i know that there is some worst and scaring lifestyles really and completely deffirent from Islam

// BUT I think there are also GOOD alternatives to Islam, both personal and political.//
I choosed Islam because i'm convinced politically , personally and sciantificlly

It's true that i seam to be a subjective person but i'm in the reality very objective i can't accept something without being convinced or sure i want to see by myself if it's true or false including Quran me personally i believe in every thing but when you have the chance to check it why not ?! and being more Believing and confident it's a necessary thing and Quran told us to do so !

No happiness is a thing that you have in your heart and the truth is a thing that you havein your mind it can contain the two and if there is a conflict it will disturbe the whole system but when it's Happiness and your mind help you to see how God is great you will love him more and respect him more

And i like to discovering the sciantific Miracles in Quran and try them including H-S and those who choose the happiness it's because they have confidence ontheir God and they are convinced by many things and every one in Islam have his own convince Reason

// You proudly say about your friend Doctor and his wealth ?,who has developed science and modern education system ?, it is western people (mostly by christian missionaries ) ,and the world owe much to these christian people.What Muslims did ?,they created madrassas to teach that war manual Qur'an– and what happened,lots of mercenaries and terrorists were produced.Now you say ,you are disgusted to see violence like killing people ,bombing, burning etc.Who are doing all these violence ?,to your kind knowledge it is your own people (Muslims)!!. //
Look when the Church was the ruler of the Christian world and such you and your contries were retarded more than 1000 year okay you were underveloped while Muslims were progressing and discovering things in all areas and subjects while your savants were killed by the Church because they were saying something that is opposite to the religion okay and when renaissance appears they kicket the Church out of derigate the world and i think that it start from German were they looked at the Church mistakes and such things i have study this about the Europian renaissance okay then they create Democracy and were it start geting good and now Islamic contries were in war where they lost their savants and posibility and become underdevelopement My contry is an example while the western contries were doing plans to occupate them like France and England for Egypt and Algeria and …… etc and they tooked a lot and developed themselves and their contries and Islamic ones like my contry lost every thing from war and because we had bad presidents they do what they want and don't help us to develope ourselves or to pregress in our research they are selfish they think about money and how is their relation with western Contries and the world and they are Dectatory in a cover of Democracy and when you and your Christians were developing yourselves our contries used to be in war and we were fighting to be alive and suffering ….. etc it's a long story
And yes without Islam we would be a retarded and have no-sense of existinag and being evil and selfish and stupid without ethics …..
Islam is who give us ethics and who meke us good persons inside okay and Qran isn't a war manual it's the best book ever okay and those war verses aren't for me they are for Muhammed and Muslims of that time who sufferd from being killed and kicked out of their houses with a stolen money and tortured okay and those verses are for Every Muslim who suffer from such problems like Palestinian okay who are suffering the same okay not for me who suffer from nothing and Allah didn't allow to us to kill people because we will go to hell if we kill someone without a right and Allah never told us to kill Christians and Jews and others who didn't hurt us and He said to us to be kinde with them and generous and nice with them Q(60:8) << Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. >>
Don't tell me your interpretation because you didn't grown in islam and you didn't know what we are used to study and don't say that boko haram are my people because they kill people without a reason and they have a false interpretation because they are practising their mouvement in the wrong place they are not right and see our Savants they are close to Islam more than Simple people who interpret Quran as what they think and go to suicide okay and i had terrorist in my contry and they were killing us okay
// Non-Islamic countries are at peace so they are progressing rapidly !!.The reason is their Holy book teach them non-violence but in contrast your Holy book teaches violence .The good example is killing animal (the cruel way of Halal) in the name of sacrifice. //
No it's not a cruel way it's a better way and safer and healthier the kill them okay it's not like you you eath them pounded or i don't know how …. etc
My holy Book don't teach me violence okay it teach me what you ignore and what you are losing and what you will never know and my happiness is in Islam it's a happinesse that someone like you will never know it's a special one that will never end it's not like yours who is mached with a desire ( like your wife) if your desire die you will lose your life …. anyway you didn't knew happinesse and you don't know and i think that you won't know
Good luck in your life and progress and don't accuse all Muslims of what do Boko haram and such people because we don't even care about them and we don't help them and we don't know them and try to see what Israel is doing it's a true terrorist

// What about Turkey –quiet a developed one-weather too is quiet comfortable .Few others are also on the list :like Azerbaijan ,Tajikistan ,Kirghistan etc ,these countries are also making rapid progress and weather is very beautiful. //
You can ask them and there is many who live there and every one have his own reasons and we talk about devloped
// But for why?, to wage war against the infidels. Ok certainly ,one day (within short period)we infidels will migrate to some other planet ,so the whole of this earth will be yours ,just enjoy the rule of your Khalif and pray your Allah and pedophile Mohammed as many time as you wish.Even if you wish to follow us ,it will not work for you,because your moon can't follow us in our sojourn journey //

Look we are Muslims and we aren't united and we are weak because of this but when we combine the whole Islamic contries to make an united Islamic nation then every Muslim will have a nation that he can go to without being killed and Burned alive and we love each other as Muslims and we want to protect each other and help each other and by doing a such Nation it will change Muslims will become stronger and developed because it' pity to be like what we are
Hah?! can you swich off your Imagination please ! anyway you can go just Go please choose any planet and just go we will be okay 😉 nevermind and don't care i won't follow you i will never think about it just go if you want i will organize a Goodbye party for you it will be happy 🙂 and i want a simple life i don't want to kick the sky or live in the moon i'm satisfated about earth
// Can you please define what do you mean by 'DEMOCRACY'?,because i am little bit confused :about your understanding of the term. //
You claim that Muslims go to western contries because they are Democratic so they will have their rights but the reality is that the Arabic contries are all Democratic exept Saoudi and there is migration from Democratic contry to Democratic contry so the reason of migration isn't Democracy it's other reasons

Thanks for reply. Was thinking intensely about it. We are not really trying to change each other, but debating for the sake of future generations, among them perhaps your children. I think.

So that they, from a young age, are informed &nbsp;about Islam AND all the big alternatives for Islam. Both personal and political. And they must be free to choose and to ask difficult questions and search for answers, and free to criticize Islam and all alternatives.

YOu have a well thought out life and much happiness, I am glad for you. AND I concede that there are also many much WORSE religions/ lifestyles than yours and thus BAD Alternatives to Islam, like superficial living, not having your serious moral values and purposefulness.&nbsp;

BUT I think there are also GOOD alternatives to Islam, both personal and political.

I always like to point out that future generations must be allowed to search for the highest truth, no matter what, through science and logic and debating, AND COMPARING a lot.

And that may be your weak spot, tnkuk. You see, you love your happiness and your feelings. But Islam may NOT be based on the truth. And now, when I ask you; what will you choose: Your current happiness, lifepurpose or trying with all your brains to find the real highest truth?

I think you would choose happiness over truth and that you still would deny that you really made that choice, saying that Islam is true, truly divine. But I think you really choose happiness, and perhaps loyalty, over truth.

And &nbsp;there are those who actually would choose the happiness and say; for that I would even believe in fairytales!&nbsp;

I am glad you are so positive about democracy. Please choose always for the TOLERANTS against the INTOLERANTS, because under the tolerants both you and we can be more free, and saying what we want, and develop, but you too would be heavily suppressed or worse, attacked by the intolerants. And you can imagine it well, because there recently was a very bloody civil war in Algeria.

even if there are secret powerblocs, then such powerblocs are everywhere, and even more so under intolerant corrupt regimes. So don't believe Iranian or MuslimBrotherhood anti-Democratic propaganda just like that any more.

Oh, and about the caliphate Nonie explained that it is to be with HEREDITARY succession and thus with no normal possibility of replacing stupid, cruel Caliphs, resulting from bad sons (not daughters!) succeeding good fathers. We have experience with such a succession-system and it very often turned out to be a recipe for disaster The democratic way of election and resigning after fixed periods is much much better. I think.

//"the true Islam that we learn from our childhood and make you compare it with the interpretation that Boko haram and similar did and the big diffirence between them and were is their Mistakes in the resoning "//

I prefer to see it like 2 or more different interpretations of Islam, or the trilogy Quran-Hadiths-Sira, on key personal and societal issues. And the interpretations of you and yours on the one hand and the interpretations of Boko Haram, ISIS, Taliban, Iran on the other hand may well be equally true and valid,

But yes, it is very good of you to try to explain to us, where it is that your interpretation differs from theirs!!!

@TnKuK
/Islamic contry are all the same don't think that there is a developed one =_=" how could them go to live in one of them while they want to go to a developped one/
What about Turkey –quiet a developed one-weather too is quiet comfortable .Few others are also on the list :like Azerbaijan ,Tajikistan ,Kirghistan etc ,these countries are also making rapid progress and weather is very beautiful.
/ No thank you i prefer that the Islamic world create a united nation/
But for why?, to wage war against the infidels. Ok certainly ,one day (within short period)we infidels will migrate to some other planet ,so the whole of this earth will be yours ,just enjoy the rule of your Khalif and pray your Allah and pedophile Mohammed as many time as you wish.Even if you wish to follow us ,it will not work for you,because your moon can't follow us in our sojourn journey :p
/Look it's not about Democracy because we are also democratic nations/
Can you please define what do you mean by 'DEMOCRACY'?,because i am little bit confused :about your understanding of the term.
/ America i have my own sources and another friend who work in France as a Doctor and he became very rich and because in our contries we haven't the suffisant Developement we can't evoluate in sciances /
You proudly say about your friend Doctor and his wealth ?,who has developed science and modern education system ?, it is western people (mostly by christian missionaries ) ,and the world owe much to these christian people.What Muslims did ?,they created madrassas to teach that war manual Qur'an– and what happened,lots of mercenaries and terrorists were produced.Now you say ,you are disgusted to see violence like killing people ,bombing, burning etc.Who are doing all these violence ?,to your kind knowledge it is your own people (Muslims)!!.
Non-Islamic countries are at peace so they are progressing rapidly !!.The reason is their Holy book teach them non-violence but in contrast your Holy book teaches violence .The good example is killing animal (the cruel way of Halal) in the name of sacrifice.

Umm can you compare between the Weather of Saoudi and the //Holland, France, Switzerland, Germany, England or US!! // according to you when they God to those contries they won't choose a desert they want a weather similar to their own and they won't go to an American desert they choose a good weather ..

// Ha ha. And despite this goal Muslim refugees settle down in Unislamic, democratic developed republics!!! //
Islamic contry are all the same don't think that there is a developed one =_=" how could them go to live in one of them while they want to go to a developped one

// News paper reports, independent articles etc should be a good starting point. //
No thank you i prefer that the Islamic world create a united nation

// The point is that they don't run away to other Islamic countries but to non-islamic countries. //
Look it's not about Democracy because we are also democratic nations okay it's not like we have no rights in ourIslamic Arabic contries WE ARE DEMOCRATIC just like you the deffirince is between the development and i'm from a contry that have megration to France and such contries and there is many friends of my father and there is no relation with the Democracy it's all about study and working and lifestyle including America i have my own sources and another friend who work in France as a Doctor and he became very rich and because in our contries we haven't the suffisant Developement we can't evoluate in sciances so many go and live there in Non-Islamic developed contries and work i know more than 10 persons and they are all there because of the work and sciances including my 3 uncles and my parents
And it's not about Democracy and we don't even think that it's about democracy

//our goal isn't to live in Saoudi Arabia but to live in an islamic developed contry wich have no president but caliph who Is MuSLIM enought to be good person //
Ha ha. And despite this goal Muslim refugees settle down in Unislamic, democratic developed republics!!!

// i don't know what will it be and i don't know what you want //
News paper reports, independent articles etc should be a good starting point.

//some run from their contry because they know that it will never change //
The point is that they don't run away to other Islamic countries but to non-islamic countries.

When you have a president who don't care about you or evolution or anything else and care just about himself and nations relations and don't give you equipment to work what will you do ? you will do "Demonstrations" you can do what you want no one will pay you atantion look we are not like you we are Democratic but not like you it's a huge diffirence and when you compare japan with an Islamic Arabic contry you will find 1 similar thing wich is it contain Human and trees and alive creatures and the rest isn't similar you can see by yourself the Islamic world is depanding to interrest and dectatory in a cover of Democracy

You can't evoluate when you live in a such contries you must to go to England or similar contries to evoluate i have experiance in such things and i know many smart Muslims who lost their ways and become nothing because they didn't had attention and didn't been helped and Haven't been informed it's verry pity and i know many others that they are in a blocked way and other and others and there is a lot of pro and there is Muslims who are Popular in some things but you know it will change someday i know when we will have a caliph and when we will be one nation and mayebe it will take a long time but it merite patience

I told you that Muslims haven't interrest in this life they don't wait to be happy here they wait the special the Paradise we are happy only because one thing Allah is our God and he made us knowing that our happiness isn't like yours wich is depanding to you desires we have nothing to love in this life but we still happy because we love God and when you know God you can know him and this earth isn't a place to live it's a test Class we are happy yes and we don't like this life because it's not suffisant and Islam say that this life isn't important the importance is in the end it's just a short time and we will die so we must to work a lot to have satisfation of God and the price will come in the end and you don't believe in this i know and i want to tell you that even if there is no price i'm happy to worship Allah it's more Happy than living in a paradise it's a feeling that you can't understand and i'm not a crazy person but there is many people like me and higher than me including our Savants and Islam give you the inside hapiness and make you happy even if you don't have nothing you still happy because your happiness is in your heart and no one can take it ( not like you it can be you family or your wife or your brother or your son ) this is a happiness that is related with no one you are happy every were any time even if you family isn't with you

Allah Gived us something better than what you are traying to bring or to create … and because you don't know the meaning of the word Allah So you don't know what is a God and you don't know what does worshiping God mean and what does Existance mean ! and Muslims will be the winners and you will see by yourself if you were alive including me

And i told you our goal we try to evoluate in case of Quran and Islam and to help each other and to be stronger and to get the best in the end we haven't an interrest in this life we don't care about money or something ( not all Muslims are like that there is some lost ones ) and we don't love this life and we don't wnat to love it but we are happy

But every thing was natural so it was the nature circle even if they were extinct it's not like the meat will end and it stay they trees and the clean nature and the fruits and many things it's nature !

Me in my religion i have another look to Humanity of that time and it's not like they didn't knew talking and such things like what we are used to think when we are young ^^"

Yes i didn't say NO electricity i love electrecity and i hate candle and i didn't say no sciance and medicines i'm with sciance but without this unbenificial Technology like cell phones with more than 100 kind it still a cell phone even if you add a Gold cover anyway it's make you brain worst but sciances i'm satisfated about that because it's beneficial for every thing ….

It's not pessimism but it's hating of exaggerate in Technology … And this earth was enought good before the Humankind arriving and modification and this earth is a test place you can do what you want because in the end it will be distroyed and we Muslims we don't live to the present we wait the end because the real life isn't here it's in the Pradise where you can be happy and do what you want as much as you can and Muslims live the test we work in this life and try to be enought good and reduce our sins and worshiping a lot and when we die we will be asked some Question and the answer won't be like here you will answer according to your life if you were really counting Allah your God and living for his satisfation you will get the first Question right and it will happend a lot and all this is according to how was your life then you will pay your sins price and if you Allah is satisfate of you it's okay because every thing is forgiven and if you didn't you must clean yourself by paying your price and the Judgment day the biggest day ever it's the most scaring day that Muslims Must work a lot to pass it easily … wich is according to your sins every thing you get hurt of it or scared or anithing annoying will expiate your sins and it will be a loong story if i will talk about that and in the end there is a Paradise were All Muslims wait for and don't care about this short life because they are not interrested

// Really? Earlier you were arguing about her not being in this 'more high' position!!! //
Yes really u_u ! it's hight because she isn't the owner of herself she is owned she cna't do what she wnat like the wife see ?!

// In other words A Sex Slave. //
No it's a slave that don't have the right to marry and she is not free and many of them lose their life and some of them go to do adultery because they can't marry soto keep her honor and self there is a solution not a sex slave

// What exactly do you mean? Do you mean one shouldn't have sex with his concubine? really? So you are basically confirming that Ibrahim wasn't born off Muhammad //

No why you didn't read the whole sentence
II but to be configured as the wife prepares .. and Hanafi jurists stipulate to achieve this two things:
1- immunization the concubine, that allocates a home of her own, as is the case with the wife ..
2-have sex with her to Achieve chastity .. as long as it has become a concubine, it may not marry a slave like her, or that it is the owner Atsry and Requirement of Islam innocence of adultery before concubinage if she had adultery it's not lawful and because she is his concubine she can't marry with anyone exept her owner and he treats her as his wife including her own house II

wich mean that Islam does not allow any sexual intercourse for the concubine as soon as possession without those two laws if this two laws aren't done it's not allowed to have sexual intercourse !

Not it's similar to marriage but without a contract and from the begining she was sent as a concubine okay she wasn't poor and she Must have her own house and Just like a wife but without a contract

3/500 isn't the number of the Verses the never of the verses is 50 but the page and the chapitre i think of the book but i have done a search in and here is the tafseer see in Tafseer of Ibn KATEER 6/391 ( 6 chapitre and 391 the page ) and i think it was a mistake of the websit that i used to take the paragaraphe from or mayebe it's from another book in some page mayebe i don't know anyway i gived you the page and the Chapitre on the book of Tafseer Ibn Katheer see it please and if you want a picture of the book or the link i have it in arabic so you must to translate here it is it's an electronic book (http://shamela.ws/browse.php/book-23604#page-2883)

Look he was just angry and it's not your business the punishment and he is not a womanizer so sich off your imagination please

And i have a bonuse for you "Summary Ghaleel [Part 1 – Page 362]
Aisha said if it reaches the current nine years are a woman Narrated by Ahmad and Ibn Umar narrated that is brought
1830 – (true)" it's from Summary Ghaleel in the graduation sayings Mannar way to Albany – Summary Ghaleel 2 part 2 page 59

It's not from Muslim or bukhari but El-Albany is a great savant and i have confidence on him and do what you want ^^ ignore or refuse or accept

//Which means no sensible society believes that Islamic principles are any good. //
Umm in your opinion if you have an Islamic Ruler will him Choose democracy or Islamic law ? ù_ù and you must to know that we don't have a true Islamic president a true Muslim they just care about Money and their interrest to stay presidents

// Then shouldn't all troubled Muslims try to migrate to Saudi Arabia instead of the developed, western democracies? //

No, because Saoudi Arabia isn't their contry okay and you won't let your family to go to live in a contry alone and who told you that they can support the weather there and our goal isn't to live in Saoudi Arabia but to live in an islamic developed contry wich have no president but caliph who Is MuSLIM enought to be good person and create a united Islamic nation this is what we need not a simple manipulated contry

And i told you that i don't have a physical proof because i don't know what will it be and i don't know what you want and i told you that i won't force you to believe i told you and it's your life do what you want you can ignore it's not my work to convince you i told you what was my conclution of my experiance and my observation

// And who is this ruler, may I know? //

You can see All Arabic democratic President including the king of Saoudi

yes islam is wonderful but we are democratic contries just like yours but we can't choose our president and we haven't the chance like you all our presiden't don't care a lot for our developement including some Rulers of the contry they like their selfs so they forget to do what they are suposed to do and don't think that we live in war okay Thanks to God we live in peace and don't talk about a Pakistan it's not a stable nation

How much do you want me to repeat it it's because of Underdevelopement of their contries and wars like in Syria and Palestine and some go to Study and some run from their contry because they know that it will never change those Rulers and we are Democratic ! if you think that they come to democracy no we are democratic too

and it's not my problem if they want to go to England because they want to live in a arranged contry

I don't say that Democracy is bad no no and i know that Demacracy has been created to pretect peoples rights in a time that they were having no justice and Islam in Arbic world did the same people were horrible inthat time certenely the Old arab and the woman was in her worst life stage because they were used to hate girls and they were killing their girls because it wa shame to have a baby girl and girls were the worst at that time but when Islam come every thing changed just like how does the democracy done in those non-Muslim contries but Islam have few laws wich don't agree with Democracy

And i live in a Democratic contry and all Arabic contry are democratic exept Saoudi Arabia but even if i'm in a Democratic contry it change nothing because we haven't something to be afraid of when you are a member of the Rulers of the contry you can do what you want and no one blame you because you are the presenter of democracy it's really that democracy change a lot but i prefer the Islamic laws because if the whole Islamic contries mix themselves it will be the biggest Islamic power around the world and without a president and those noisy things a caliph is enought were we really do what the Islamic laws tells and be teached the right Islam and cultured about Quran then the power of the Islamic world will began not now while every one is caring about himself and his lovely money and claim Islam while he mayebe don't even pray and the whole Islamic world is Democratic exept saoudi Arabia i think or some few contries but it stay underdevelopement because it's not in our hands it's in secret hands and you will see that another world war will happend because the world isn't in hormony even with Democracy it still interrest who guide

//" me personally i prefer the old weapons it's more safe that Bombes and war planes and those missiles and those submachine gun and incindiary weapons including the NUCLEAR bomb and all those killing machine i prefer the old ones it's more safe and more confident and cute"//

Well, in my view, # 540 million years ago animals originated, but soon after they started killing and eating each other. And being killed is HORRIBLE for ANY animal. When humans came into existence, 200.000 years ago, there still, for a long time, were these predators who could kill and eat them, but humans later became too strong for them.

BUT humans killed and even ATE each other in the stone age! And then came civilization; humans killing humans continued. And really, back then it was horrible too! And the strange thing is: The more killing capacity weapons have, the LESS killing, PER CAPITA, there seems to be.

Many are sure, that the Soviet Union would love to have invaded Western Europe,and that they would have done it if the Atom bomb had not deterred them.

As for pollution, it's there, but the richest countries do clean up their worst mess. The women of the world get less children and agriculture needs ever less land while producing more. In America and Europe farming land is turned into woods now! It is only the poor people who don't have the time and energy to care about the environment.

And you should prefer modern high-rises over the huts and shovels of the past, with stinking toilets and not electricity. And you should not wish that there would be billions of people less than there are now, but that IS what you indirectly wish. Oh, and diseases, and even cancer, they are in retreat.

There are my many pessimistic and conservative people like you, but my questions was; why, according to you, didn't Allah work out a better plan? According to me? If Allah organised life on Earth, He did well! But of course I don't think that he did.

Thank you , and because it's for Islam i can't ignore and i must to tell you the truth and my interest isn't to take attention because it will bring other people and it will began and i don't have time but my interrest is to give you a look about the true Islam that we learn from our childhood and make you compare it with the interpretation that Boko haram and similar did and the big diffirence between them and were is their Mistakes in the resoning and of course God know everything and more than us

I know that it's better than the past and sometimes i wonder how it's easy to do hard works and it's more confortable i know but without exaggeration they are too possesed by the technology to the extent that they demolish Nature and pollute it and creating War weapons me personally i prefer the old weapons it's more safe that Bombes and war planes and those missiles and those submachine gun and incindiary weapons including the NUCLEAR bomb and all those killing machine i prefer the old ones it's more safe and more confident and cute and you can die with a beautiful face not like those killing machines who kill you in a catastrophic way

But what is the adventage of Technologie while the nature is distroyed and we are evoluating in case of Nature SO, we evoluate to our Relaxation and distroy nature because it need to be sacrified for us umm nature is for all existing creatures but because we are selfish and we want only our confort who said that we want all those disgusting weapons and pollution we want a healthy life no one said that we don't love technology but technology is without reason who want a Nuclear Bomb and who wanted Bombes and who wanted I pads and who wanted cellphones of all kinds who give you a cancer and cook your brain and who wanted all those weapons and who wanted all those veeeeeerryyyyyy high building and who wanted all those Cars more than 100 kind of cars and what does nature want ?! in the past people wanted just simple houses and simple every thing and they were helthy and happy without those scary weapons and i know why the technology is gatting worst because the Human is lazy so he want to do every thing in the easy way he don't even want to wait or be patient or even do it by himself this is due of lazyness not of confort when i see some old people in my contry the don't need all those thing they need a freezer and a simple house with plants and water and food they don't even know how to use cell phones and they don't want even to have one they think that it's annoying and they don't need a car they just need a bicycle and eat healthy food and they are known of their health in my contry and they say that their secret is olive oil the pure one and they really have a strong body and they still have teeth

And my objective is sciance and everything alse i don't care a lot what interrest me is sciantific used machine and things but the others are unwanted for me

Yep, well said Chuck! esp. the bit's about 1.5 billion Muslims manipulated by 13 million Jews (or was it 18 million?), and anyway,

according to Muslims, who say they are not racist, it is only a rich minority and the Zionists among the Jews, not the whole race!

And the bit about the baffling opinion of Muslims to think that only THEIR countries are fucked up by the bad part of the Jews, so they go to the other countries, but why then are these NOT fucked by Jews? What is the difference?

Oh, chuck, please go to the bottom of the comment section! I have more and more trouble finding your latest posts!!!

Tnkuk, you thought that all countries equally took in refugees? But no, many countries do not take them in. Some countries must do it, when they border on states in turmoil, that is true.

But further away it seems that it is the Western countries who take in the most refugees and immigrants, many of them Muslims. But there are the exceptions of rich countries who don't take in immigrants at all, almost; Japan, South Korea, Taiwan.

Well, it is up to Muslims to show to Western countries, that these countries benefit economically from them by and large, and that they perform better than Japan, SouthKorea and Taiwan perform (and they perform very well now).

Otherwise inhabitants of Western countries might rightly say; Look, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan perform economically much better BECAUSE they don't take in Muslims! This means Muslims should try to make their new Western countries better! And to be loyal to them and they should try not to drag their new societies down! And they should not be disloyal to them by being against democracy and in favor of fellow Muslims who are clearly tyrannical, like those in the government of Iran.

And you, in solidarity with the Muslims in Democratic countries, must also not be in favor of totalitarian Muslims BUT in favor of the governments of the Western countries, as they should be (otherwise they drag their new country down, and Japan wins). Do you agree?

//" It's a truth that we can't chage the world is getting worst i wonder how it will be in 2214 the nature will end and many contries will sink and others will change to a Disert"//

tnkuk, isn't it strange that I, a man who believes in Democracy, Science and the inherent good and productivity of humans, believe mankind is getting better, by and large, and has been progressing for a long time now. While you, a Muslima, thinks the world is getting worse?

What is the use of Allah intervening through Mohammed then? I mean; Allah could be some kind of ego-maniac, who really only desires to be worshiped and who never wanted to improve mankind's fate. So then you, who indeed does not see any improvement in mankind's fate, but indeed see mankind's fate worsening, are indeed worshiping Allah and he rewards you for it in heaven, you suppose, but He does not care for improvement of mankind-s fate,

or He wanted genuinely to improve mankind's fate, but He simply did not succeed, according to you. Either He did not succeed in making progress Himself, or He did not succeed to get mankind to progress, or He did not succeed to get Muslims to perform notably better than non-Muslims.

@tnKuK
//there is no Islamic contry based on Islamic value//
Which means no sensible society believes that Islamic principles are any good.

//Exept Saoudi Arabia//
Then shouldn't all troubled Muslims try to migrate to Saudi Arabia instead of the developed, western democracies?

//we say that it's invisible and don't say "Jews" because it's not jews it's a Masonic center who have a jewish religion okay //
If you have no evidence then what you are saying is just a Conspiracy Theory. Something that you have believed exists and provides an escape for everything that troubles you. This is very similar to how it was in US in the 60s and 70s. If something went wrong it always was the Communist Foreign Hand 🙂

// And it's not MY failure it's the Ruler Failure//
And who is this ruler, may I know?

//i don't like Pakistan because it's full of problems//
Which proves the point. Muslims travel to western democratic developed democracies because they provide: 1. Religious Tolerance (at least at a gross level), 2. Employment, 3. Social Security (A big chunk of Muslims live on social security unfortunately), 4. Overall security, 5. Comfortable life, 6. Bomb-less environment etc etc.. And when in these countries they never lose a moment to tell us how they dislike this culture, this society, this nation and how good Islam is :-).

//i won't ask about this because if i go to a similar contry i will go for study not to live or to enjoy because there is nothing that i will like there//
I wasn't talking about you. But my question was why Muslim refugees invariably travel to France or England or US, none of which understand (and there I agree with you) the 'true' Islam instead of countries like Saudi Arabia which are rich and Islamic?

//it's true that my contry isn't developed but i like the people of my contry and i hate them sometime but it's funny and strange they are nice and good persons but evil sometimes and straange all times//'
Which is true for every country. It is good that you love your country and that is how it should be.

//not it's not Democracy who give me the air to breath or the food okay//
Thousands of Muslims traveling and settling in developed countries bear testimony to the opposite. Unfortunately.

@tnKuK
//a concubine isn't like a wife it's more high//
Really? Earlier you were arguing about her not being in this 'more high' position!!!

//because she is owned and in Islam this is called "what possessed right hand" //
In other words A Sex Slave.

//And concubinage Islam does not allow any sexual intercourse for the nation as soon as possession //
What exactly do you mean? Do you mean one shouldn't have sex with his concubine? really? So you are basically confirming that Ibrahim wasn't born off Muhammad 🙂

//which all require the terms of the marriage, with the exception of the marriage contract//
Which means it is not a marriage and the poor woman has no rights that a married woman gets (which is little even then) because of the contract.

//è_é "Tafsir Ibn Kathir" (3/500)//
I am not saying that you are lying. I am saying that I didn't find this in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And what is exactly 3/500? My knowledge is shallow but even I know that Quran Al-Imran (Chapter 3) has only 200 ayahs. So you have to refine your reference for me to look it up in Tafsir.

// Look the benefits sin't in this story//
Off course there are benefits. It tells us that Muhammad was a womanizer, weak at keeping his oaths and in general a short tempered person who thought depriving sex to his wives was a great way of 'punishing' them.

//"No i didn't judge Americans i judge Obama and his choises and those Army of Israel and who is in their case i don't hate Jews or racist for them no no no"//

Oh, OK, I know THAT. And of course many people in high places, in government, big corporations, are "predators", "parasytes", "exploiters" of the ordinary people, so the ordinary Americans and Israeli's.

BUT, I know history very well, and I say that those "predators, parasytes, exploiters" have RETREATED! And hopefully will be forced to retreat a bit more. And the ordinary people have ADVANCED through the advent of Democracy. and hopefully will advance more.

Even if you are right about secret organisations who weald much power, consider the past, please;
Before 3500 BC, when civilization seem to have begun, mankind was PRIMITIVE, farming or hunting. and at the most there were 2000 people in one place. and there was violence and hardly any law.

Then, ever since humans live in cities and states, there was slavery, women-oppression, "predators-parasytes-exploiters in the form of kings, priests, aristocrats, bureaucrats of maybe 10 % who exploited the eternally poor 90 %. War was much more normal than peace was in the past, check it. Many big peoples conquered small peoples and their lands. countless humans were killed and kept as slaves, every single year.

But with the advent of Democracy and the liberal system of the West, people started to be more prosperous, free and innovative. And it started in the West. And you in the Islamic world, should emulate it, like Japan and Israel did. but what do you do? You concentrate only on your religion and let those conservative Islamic clerics indoctrinate against this system that could bring you more prosperity and freedom!

//" in my opinion it is going worst because look at the nature that we are living in it's getting polluted more and more"//

Oh no! I am much older than you, and for many, many years I thought like you, but the pessimists have it mostly wrong and the optimists mostly right. even on the environmental score.

Oh, because newspapers know only bad news sells, most people focus on all the bad news, and tend to ignore and disbelieve the good news.

And as I said, many people, like you I suppose, do not study the past thoroughly (like I did) and so do not know from which bad and primitive situations mankind come from and how much incredible progress we have made.

We live longer, are on average far more prosperous, have for one thing much better toilets, often have supermarkets nearby, with everything in it (4 BILLION people have something like that). Then there is the technology, with TV, cars, planes, all those products in shops. Did you know that on one single day you may encounters food and products made by, say 10.000 people, all of which YOU can buy?

Oh, for people to be so blind to the abundance and prosperity so many people have, not only much more than in the past, but also in much higher PERCENTAGES of mankind. And in India, China, even Africa, it is still growing like mad.

And as for forests being destroyed; the number of trees in the world is actually increasing, like in China and in a belt around the Sahara across Africa. And in Siberia there are still # 60 BILLION trees.

Agriculture is still making huge improvements. Where once 80 % of people had to provide 100 % of the food, now barely 3 % of people provide all the food for all the rest. Many deadly diseases, like TBC, have been severely diminished. War had diminished, as have victims of violence, but in a PERCENTAGE-way, PER CAPITA. But OK, if you refuse to see it, and to check what I say, you're not the only one.

Researchers now say that if you have a baby in Holland, and it's a girl, that that baby has 50 % chance to live up to a 100. Isn't that great! It means even now progress is made in a big way. You yourself use technology of which your parents and I could not even dream of in our youth.

//"and i believe in Islam a lot it's the best religion and i'm satisfated about my life"//
OK, I'll try to respect that. And I can see that has benefit. And that this is your character and conviction.

But I am still glad you are here and there is a lot that you write about that I and others want to respond to. But in a contradictory way, sometimes harsh. BUT you will get the lionshare of attention. And MAYBE, just maybe you get something real worthwhile out of it.

And my compliments for, well, being so open, and so courageous, full of fire, in your responses. I think we prophit because you inspire us to go against you and thank you for that.

You can't understand me because you can't see what i see okay you are in a contry that isn't the same of mine and there is no Islamic contry based on Islamic value Exept Saoudi Arabia and it's the same with the ruler and don't out me in your place our contries are diffirent from each other okay

I have my own experiance by observing how the wold work okay
// have any material proof // Are you kidding me ?! like what a moustache of the leader -_-" for example or the picture of the groupe please stop kidding yourself we say that it's invisible and don't say "Jews" because it's not jews it's a Masonic center who have a jewish religion okay ?! not all Jews because they have no relation

And it's not MY failure it's the Ruler Failure and if it was a real ruler it will never fail okay when he do what he Must not what others tell him

Haha i hate war and i don't like Pakistan because it's full of problems and i want a caliph not a contry i want a caliph for the whole Muslim nation were it will be no contry but a big Islamic empire this is what i want not a simple pakistan =_=" or Germany or France ( i don't like France) or England and US ( i don't want to spend more than 12 h in the plane to go to a contry that have false idea about Islam ) and i won't ask about this because if i go to a similar contry i will go for study not to live or to enjoy because there is nothing that i will like there it's true that my contry isn't developed but i like the people of my contry and i hate them sometime but it's funny and strange they are nice and good persons but evil sometimes and straange all times it's not borring to live in a similar nation it make you laught a lot not like in England and similar they don't have such strange people to see daily anyway if you think that i will run to live in another contry sorry i don't like this because i don't care about Democracy or not it's not Democracy who give me the air to breath or the food okay and i told you where i want to live in an islamic world wich contain all Muslims of the world with mixing the contries and the power with good caliph and i think that it will never happen with those rulers but it will happen someday

No i didn't judge Americans i judge Obama and his choises and those Army of Israel and who is in their case i don't hate Jews or racist for them no no no but you must to know in this world Democracy isn't with humanity it's with interrest America or any contry do it's steps according to interrest it's seams to you that it's Humanity but it's not when America do a humanity work it's for it's interrest and it's statue as a state and to bring the confidence of the world okay if it was really the Justice and Humanity it will support the right every were it is not by interest

And i will re-tell you i don't Judge the American nation or the israelian nation i Judge the Army of Israel who do this and Obama who tooked such a decision and all who is in their case of injustice not the whole American Nation and i'm not racist and i knew by the net many nice Americans and a Juwish one and i look there is the good and the bad every where okay and i blame too Islamic contry rulers who are in case of this two

And i told you there is no good side it's for it's own interrest it's for itself if you thing that it's by humanity haha sorry you don't know how it work including Arabic Islamic rulers okay and i don't blame all Juws there is many nice Juws who don't accept what is happening and want to be right i have seen many including American and from the whole world but i blame the Rulers who choosed to be unjuste where they have to be in the Justice side

Mr,Demsci i don't know if i'm the only one who have such reasoning but there is nothing for me to do in this world i even don't have the "want" to live there is nothing that take my attention or make me happy like you the thing that make me happy like you is non-existing here and it will never exist in this world and impossible to exist but i fond my true happinesse wich is not like yours in my heart ( NOT my desires this false happiness) in Allah and i don't have a reason to exist without Allah because im existing to do something that the future is reserving to me and i was lost in the first because i was without a goal and it was borring but now i know what i will do and what i must do and i believe in Islam a lot it's the best religion and i'm satisfated about my life and i don't want to love my life including persons because you will loose them and there is no benefits by talking a lot with people it's just wasting of time and thank you for this book but i think that it will change nothing because my look to this lfe and your look isn't the same including the writer of this book

Solitude is due of thinking .. you said that you think that mankind is getting better , in my opinion it is going worst because look at the nature that we are living in it's getting polluted more and more + look at the cities it's a borring view when you can't breath a natural air also the high buildings it's stifling! even if there is a little garden it still not beautiful in my contry thanks to God it have no verry high building but when i went Spain it's a beautiful contry yes but it's annoying with some degreesof darkness due of high bulding…

And when you see people who die while you are in your happy moments you prefer to not be happy again and certenly me as a muslim i don't want to see my brothers in religion be killed and little kids burned and turned into pieces and the rest of horrible scene of deth while Miss me is happy with her life and living the developement of the world …

It's a truth that we can't chage the world is getting worst i wonder how it will be in 2214 the nature will end and many contries will sink and others will change to a Disert and others the opposite and the two poles will melt and many animals extinct and pollution will be the king and the wars began and it will be a world war IV and every thing will be worst this earth is done to live on it not to make for yourself another world to live when we compare the old earth and now it's another world and you are talking positively because you haven't seen what does war mean and hunger mean and how is the feeling of expecting deth any time any second including your lovely family

And if you are a good person there is many evil person around the world don't think that everyone is like you and the Humans hapinesse is due of desire if you get what you desire you will be happy and if you don't you will be sad and this is not a happinesse

This life will end and no one said that we will live a long life and every one you love will die someday no one will stay for you and your turn is coming what will you do if there is a hell ? and what will you do to save yourself and what you exepct will happend when you die we live only few years it's shorter than a minute and nothing will keep existing nothing ! your health , your beauty , your hair , your body every thing will stop existing in this world and people will forget you with time it's a lie that they keep thinking of you so the conclution is that this life have a secret our goal of existing isn't evoluate or being happy a false happinesse and how is the feeling of deth i hope that you don't think that it's like the sleeping feeling and we can't be exesting from a monkey =_=" of course and we can't exist without a mission and we have to die only one time me and every one do you think that we go to a no place it will be boring really me personally i don't care about this world i care just for Muslims who suffer and i don't like this life i want a paradise there i can be happy as much as i can because every one is happy and i wonder how could people love a world like this and a life like this and the problem is that they are happy only by living in a such world ?! how could you be happy it's full of darkness ?! me i'm happy inside but for this life i have no interest i don't even want to live my life i want to die the earliest possible !

@TnKuK
//"Rulers" not the Muslims of course not the Muslims ! it's the rulers we even don't choose our president okay//
Then also you should stay in your country and try to change the ruler or migrate to such Islamic country which you think is based on Islamic values. Not to some Western Democracy, which according to you are manipulated by the Jews and run on a system (Democracy) which isn't compatible with Islam!!!

//President want oe what the Invisible hand tell him to do//
Conspiracy Theories are favourite pass time of the gullible. If it it invisible how do you know it exist. Do you have any material proof. If yes please put forth otherwise it is just a canard. You want to blame the failure of your system on some invisible foe.

You don't want democracy then go to Pakistan they have a perfectly non-functioning democracy and nobody will remotely suggest that they are run by the Jews. But, no, you will go to Norway or Holland or Germany or US or England or France instead!!! And then disrupt these places, today asking for a mosque to be built, tomorrow asking for no-sports-classes for girls, and next day asking for foods to be marked halal (Demsci will have an example of all these in his country)!!!

//"don't accuse the whole ISLAMIC wold about what Boko Haram and such people do okay don't blame me of what some Muslims do because they had a faulse interpretation to Quran"//

Well, you know, in judging America, Israel, the Jews you showed us that you judged them with all sorts of faults and bad intentions. What you failed to do here is show that you also care about their many good sides and behaviors. Which you ignore, do not acknowledge. And I notice that you do not compare countries on good sides and behaviors much. Although on the internet you can find so many statistics on good behavior and circumstances in which Western countries excel and outperform Islamic countries.

Thus It seems to me that YOU, tnkuk, and many Muslims, JUDGE America and Israel very unjustly. And now here you find out that, well Islam, can be JUDGED very unjustly too. Now you know how American and Israeli's who hear you must feel.

When YOU, tnkuk, and many Muslims, so UNJUSTLY JUDGE America and Israel, you have NO RIGHT to demand to be treated better by Westerners about Judgement of Islam.

You don't want to be seen as a person like a member of Boko Haram, or ISIS? You like to be judged fairly? Fine, but then do make the effort to see the good sides of America and Israel, and to compare all countries justly.

//"my happinesse is Allah if i let islam then my life will be a non-sense i would be crazy and lose my mind because i will lose my existance reason "//

OK,I see that you have "Islam" as your existence reason. But hope you can modify it and make it compatible with Democracy, which is an important existence reason for me.

There now is a book called "Strengthsfinder". it lists 34 strengths that a human can have. I hope that you find your natural strengths and develop them, tnkuk. perhaps thinking and answering difficult questions is one or your strengths, like it is one of mine. Anyway, this book says; do not bother too much about your weaknesses, they will never bring you success. But focus instead on your strengths; find them and develop them with all your willpower.

//''And this world is ugly for me i don't want to live in such place and i can't be happy while many others are killed and dead from hunger okay i can't be happy and count this world beautiful"//

tnkuk.You wrote that you don't talk much with your family and that you are a rather solitary person. But I hope that you are one of those "thinking" persons, like I am. And thinking in solitude can be good.

Now you confide that you think the world is ugly and often in war. But I like to give you the historical context as I see it; and I CAN explain why and what my sources are, but this takes too much room here for now.

But at least I like to say to you that I think mankind is getting better. And yes, there are many beautiful activities and circumstances happening and developing in the world right now.

And it was thus in the past too. We humans have come such a long way. Per my history-information, civilization began in Uruk, Iraq, # 3500 BC, it being the first big city. Ever since then cities, then states, they FOUGHT, and conquered. And often with great cruelty and ruthlessness.

BUT in the latest centuries something changed for the better; there is now LESS war, and LESS violence, murder, among people.

And this upward trend is likely to continue. Also humans are getting, on average, more prosperous, freeer, better educated, getting longer lives, much more information available and much more better things. The fault most people make is that they don't understand that things were much worse in the past than they are now and that mankind really is making progress and achieving wonderful and nice things.

Oh, I hope you get more optimistic and positive about mankind and it's future than you are now. Also for your children's sake, should you get married and have them.

For that to happen, you should look for the truth, the highest truth, the best and fullest answers to your questions, as I and many of us do. It is to your advantage that you don't talk about these spiritual, intellectual and political matters with your family. And that you search and think in solitude. Because your loved ones have already indoctrinated you very badly IMO.

I hope that you somehow find good friends to talk about your deepest thoughts, without forcing you to think like everybody in your surrounding.

Humm i see ! sorry i didn't know that he didn't marry her because i'm not extremely cultured about his wives and she is called his wife so ididn't get it from the beginning and thank you for telling me and i will tell you why because i have done a search

The king of Egypt sent him two women as slaves "Rihana and Mary" so he liberate Rihana and married her to a poete i think and Mary was his concubine and a concubine isn't like a wife it's more high because she is owned and in Islam this is called "what possessed right hand" Islam has put the legitimacy of controls made ​​him a real marriage, which all require the terms of the marriage, with the exception of the marriage contract, because the marriage contract is a minimum of a decade of ownership, as in the first ownership of the benefit, while the second leads to the king of the neck, and then the utility ..
And concubinage Islam does not allow any sexual intercourse for the nation as soon as possession .. but to be configured as the wife prepares .. and Hanafi jurists stipulate to achieve this two things:
1- immunization the concubine, that allocates a home of her own, as is the case with the wife ..
2-have sex with her to Achieve chastity .. as long as it has become a concubine, it may not marry a slave like her, or that it is the owner Atsry and Requirement of Islam innocence of adultery before concubinage if she had adultery it's not lawful and because she is his concubine she can't marry with anyone exept her owner and he treats her as his wife including her own house

//I don't know where you picked this from but it still says that Mary was a concubine!! Kindly give chapter and book name, because I think it is not there in his tafsir. //
And you think now that i'm a liar sorry i don't have the boldness to lie in such things and i think that there is the information of this little tafseer è_é "Tafsir Ibn Kathir" (3/500). if i had time i would search for you a scan of the page and i don't have a reason to lie about Ibn katheer

Look the benefits sin't in this story okay it's in what God teach us how to do the expiation okay and that God knew what those two were saying okay and it's a big mistake to do such thing and Muhammed thought i think that they were not enaughtly Good persons and it's not my or your business okay it's her faults and it was okay and they learned something new including expiation

And yes i believe this Hadith and sorry for my mistake it was my fault but now i learned a new thing and i explain to you what is it and when she is a concubine she can't marry

@TnKuK
//Give me the proof that he didn't marry mary the copt from Ibn Saad//
Here is the quote from Ibn Sa'd:
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry Mariyah al-Qibtiyyah, rather she was a concubine who was given to him by al-Muqawqis, the ruler of Egypt. That took place after the treaty of al-Hudaybiyah. Mariyah al-Qibtiyyah was a Christian, then she became Muslim (may Allaah be pleased with her).

//every one knew this and no one want to ask it's because of that there is no Hadith//
Now that is foolish really. Do you mean that hadiths were only reported if nobody knew about something? There are hadiths reporting many of Muhammad's marriages. If there is none about his marriage to Mary the Copt, it only indicates that he never married Mary the Copt. Even Ibn Ishaq, whose Sirat Rasul Allah, is possibly the most important book in Islam after the Quran and the Shahi hadith collections doesn't mention Mary as a wife of Muhammad (Refer to page 792 of the Life of Muhammad translated by A. Guillaume)

//but Ibn Katheer talked about this and i gave you what he said okay and you don't know more than Ibn Katheer okay//
You yourself have written This is ibn katheer's "And says: {what possessed right hand which bestowed upon you} parties / 50, ie the permitted you concubinage, which took the spoils, was the king of descriptive and Juwayriyah Voatgahma and Tzugema and King Rihana girl Shimon Alndharah and Maria Coptic or his son Ibrahim peace be upon them and they were concubines, God bless them .

I don't know where you picked this from but it still says that Mary was a concubine!! Kindly give chapter and book name, because I think it is not there in his tafsir.

//Because he didn't tell them to buld a montain he told them only to keep it a secret for their satisfation but they did a mistake wich is not good in this subject//
This is so very fishy. The apostle of Allah asks one of his wives to keep secret about his liking honey!!!! Wow!!! And then when the secret isn't kept derides them and threatens to divorce them and punishes them by not having sex with them for a month!!!! WOW WOW WOW!! What gullible foolishness makes you even believe that such an event could have happened when I have given you a Shahi hadith where Omar talks about the secret being that involving Mary the Copt?

Hah?! of course Muslims contry rulers are possesed by money and they do nothing who have benifits for Islam or democracy every thing is interrest and life it have no brave objectives and no one told me i just did my own search and my own observation and my own sources and it's a pity to know this and the world is going like this and it have many secrets that i wasn't waiting for me too

I don't talk about something that i don't know about but about this invisible hand i'm sure because i see this in my president okay it's starnge things and the problem is that Arabic contries rulers arn't choosed by the people of the contry they are choosed by a way that you will be stay mouth open and i saw many things in my contry certenly my contry prooved it to me also America and i don't have friends to talk about this because they are mind out

And there is Muslims who don't know but the reality proof is what is happening in the whole Arabic world including America and i have my own observation certenly when we like to help our Muslims in Palestine but my president i have seen nothing from Algeria and he support Cc of Egypte and Cc is with Israel and America too what ?! and i'm sure of what i'm saying mayebe YOU don't know but I know and i see

Umm "surrounded by loved ones" really ?! i don't have 'surrounded by loved ones' and i don't even talk with my family about such things exept my Father few things about syria and such things but i have really no surrounded loved ones i'm from the kind of solitarry people and i don't need noise in my life friend bla bla bla i have only friends by the net and me and my family are too busy to have time to talk togather it's uncommon because every one have his own occupation and time is Gold and no we have freedom in my family and asking is important it's necessery to learn and it have no relation withmy familly what i'm talking about we haven't talked about this Juwish center

Not Muslims but the Arabic Islamic contries "Rulers" not the Muslims of course not the Muslims ! it's the rulers we even don't choose our president okay and our rulers don't represent us because we have no similarity in what we want and what the President want oe what the Invisible hand tell him to do

Anyway America is a proof even if you don't want to talk about it's your problem go and see how kids are killed you will have an idea about the situation and tell me about what Justice will do in such situation

No a juwish center a secret one manipulate most Contries okay and we aren't who choose the president and we aren't who tell him what we think okay and i really know what i'm talking about 100% and yes this juwish center manipulate also America okay and people who go to America it's because they want to get out of their contries underdevelopement okay and there is who have a work there like my fathers friends he is obligated to work there

Idon't really hate them i don't even think about them but there is a juwish Masonic center it's your problem if you don't want to believe it's your problem and i will not force you to believe but it's the reality and as a person from an ARABIC ISLAMIC contry i saw a lot

I don't say that America did something to Muslims but i say that America don't merite to be the Justice center because it's injuste okay while America is sad and screaming about the christians who are killed in Nigeria and i don't know and who were killed in the world and when it's about Muslims America ignore it like in Borma were they are Burned alive and in South Africa and in America they are in racisme and my Mothers friend is Muslim and live in America but she was told that their childrens are Mind sick okay and she went to a psy and he was doing the same and laying all time and in school they were too in racisme by the teachers anyway it's similar and i don't say that All American are bad noo NOT all but the majority are raciste for Muslims okay and i know what i'm talking about

All the contries give the asylum exept some okay don't think that it's a mercy okay and don't accuse the whole ISLAMIC wold about what Boko Haram and such people do okay don't blame me of what some Muslims do because they had a faulse interpretation to Quran okay and it's not my problem if they rape their kids Islam FORBIDE RAPE okay if they rape it's not Islam or Muslims problem okay it's the same person problem as human and there is many rapist around the world okay

And they don't attacke this Israel because america is with them and the arabic Islamic contries are manipulated they don't do what the Islam say but they do what this juwish hand say okay

And i don't wast my time praying Allah every thing i wanted i had okay and those boys are for all the believers okay no only for Men and the women in Paradise will be reformed a new form that will be the triple beauty of those virgins okay and also i will have many things in Paradise as a women and i have my own wishes and things to have in Paradise and i know that i will have them all

And for your info'sAmerica don't have a mercy on me okay the only one who have a mercy on me is God because he gived me every thing okay it's not America who give the the oxygene or give me the water okay and it's not america who give me the life i'm okay without your America okay and i don't blame Christians or Jews i blame a Juwish center who manipulate Contries okay and i hate who claim the justice while he is injust it called justice in interest okay

And this world is ugly for me i don't want to live in such place and i can't be happy while many others are killed and dead from hunger okay i can't be happy and count this world beautiful when i see people deformed and live the hell in this life we can't be happy in this life because it's too ugly and even if you wanted to be happy a war will transforme your life to a second hell while you can see your family bombed and the head is in a place and the hand is in another place and only blood eating the place How can i be happy while people suffer from this hah ? and others dead from hunger and live the true catastrophic life !!!! this life isn't existing to be beautiful it is existing to be tested you are tested and you will be happy in another place and there is a paradise in this life wich is in your heart okay and i have my own thanks to God i'm happy because Allah is my God and i know what does this mean and i'm happy for this but i hate in the same time every thing in this Jail called "life" okay and you are talking about the desire not about the happinese when you get what you want you will be happy and this is a happinesse who end not like my happiness who will never end and will never change even if we are in a war and i see my familly killed it will touche nothing from my happinesse but yours a simple thing will boulverse it and cut it and distroy it so this is not happinesse and my happinesse is Allah if i let islam then my life will be a non-sense i would be crazy and lose my mind because i will lose my existance reason

Yes Islam is better than Muslims and stop kidding about Safiyah because i know the story he married her okay and in the sahihain He liberate her and married her okay he didn't rape her and i know the story okay and i know my prophet and every woman have her own story okay it's not like he wanted so

And about this poete he was killed because he was inciting Quraish against Muslims and Muhammed okay and he was hurting Muslims a lot and he did a plan to kill Muhammed with some juws of Quraish and it's in Sahih Bukhari by inviting Muhammed to a feast and kill him okay so he wanted to be killed

I know this story of stoning women because she went to Muhammed and wanted to penance his mistake and i know the true story okay and Muhammed was sorry of what she did so he gived her time for her child and when she ended she went to him and asked him to do the penance okay i know the whole story

@TnKuK
//i have many many prooves as a contry of those who are "Manipulated"//
Please furnish some. Isn't surprising that 1.5 billion Muslims are manipulated by 13 million Jews? Are muslims so weak that they can't get rid of these so called manipulations?

//America react to the Palastinian subject were Israel is killing kids and innocent people//
Don't even get into that subject. You do not seem to have a balanced view of the history and this forum isn't meant for discussing that.

//i told you why Muslims go to other contries//
No. You just told me that 1. Democracy is against Islamic principles. 2. Jews manipulate your Islamic countries so muslims find it hard to stay back in their country.
1 and 2 don't match up because according to you Jews also manipulate democratic countries like America yet we find thousands fleeing to America itself and not to Indonesia, Malaysia or Pakistan!!

//i don't really have time like you to think about Jews and be racist//
Yet its YOU brought the anti-Jewish canard in this discussion not me. Tells me who is a racist!!

//"there is invisible hands who manipulate the Islamic Arabic world Okay Including Saoudi Arabia and this hand is jewish and it have it's own" Masonic Center""//

The world sure is imperfect and much is hidden, OK. But the people who told you this, they indirectly tell you that the people and leaders in Islamic countries are manipulated and weak. And the manipulators are some Western leaders and corporations and secret agencies, led by powerhungry secret societies.

But no! You Muslims are just as strong as the Westerners (who are incredibly divided and superficial people, from top to bottom) and you Muslims are just as responsible for your fate and circumstances as we are.

When you say those things about Muslims being manipulated by Westerners, and not the other way around, you really say:
Westerners are mighty, sane adult humans, and we criticize them because they can change.
Muslims are like insane, or childish, or animals. They should not be criticized, because hey, they can't change! Like the insane, children or animals can't change!

Don't overestimate Western power and don't underestimate Muslims responsibility, please!

What you told us about Democracy and the invisible hand and that there are Jews or Free Masons really in power and manipulating everything. Well, that is propaganda. It is coming from anti-Democratic people, the very people who would also suppress women, so you also. They hate America because it protects democracy from them. And they vilify democracy because they themselves are the dictatorials.&nbsp;

Dictatorial Muslim leaders treat individual humans like SHEEP. they want YOU to be like a sheep. On this website you get very harsh criticism, and I hope you can take it. BUT we like to treat you like a free independent individual. Albeit with strong criticism. But that should make you stronger, wiser, because it STINGS you, stimulates you to think, search and talk. And you ARE a serious girl, are you not? Not the next superficial thinking pleasure-loving girl?

//" there is invisible hands who manipulate the Islamic Arabic world Okay Including Saoudi Arabia and this hand is jewish and it have it's own" Masonic Center" "//

Tnkuk, how independent are you? Do you have a few friends or fellow students you can talk to about this? Or is it perhaps the case that you cannot go against what your savants and family and fellow students tell you about the world? And these questions go for all Muslims who may read this conversation.

Look tnkuk, I think you are surrounded by loved ones, and you like to agree with them. and you dislike to disagree with them on such important matters as religion and politics. I think you are not even allowed to disagree, and that that will be very dangerous for you.

It is different with us Westerners; Even on religious and political matters all may speak their mind and no loved ones really object, instead they expect many disagreements and good debates. No one is afraid to express their opinion among their loved ones. In the papers and media there is constant discussion and movement.

Albeit that, well, I am like Daniel Pipes and Ryan Mauro of Clarion Project who think Muslims can change, while still being Muslims. I know that sounds like a long shot to you and many Westerners and Indians.

But I feel that, yes, the dark Islamic totalitarian forces are the enemy of the free Democratic forces and that the vast majority of Muslims is in between and can choose one side or the other. We see in Egypt for instance that the majority of the people rejected the rule of the Muslim Brotherhood. To be quite honest; I like to try to sway tnkuk more to our freedom & democracy side.

Oh, and this thread is getting so long, and it takes some time now to find new posts, so can I persuade you to go to the bottom of the comment section of this article and go on there?

@TnKuK
See you people have tendency of making others responsible for your miseries!!. What the US has done to Muslims?. Why cant you blame Saddam Hussein for attacking Kuwait ?,it was he who has occupied Kuwait not US .Who attacked America?,it is you Muslims. Treachery is what your pedophile prophet has taught you.Look all western people give asylum to you people,but in return you just want to rule them.Your people rape their kids ,kill people on the street in the train and in the malls. Why you need US for the protection of Palestinians?why can't the surrounding Muslim countries take initiatives and attack that tiny country Israel?. Who gave Israel to weapons?,not America but it was their own invention.Why can't Muslims produce weapons equivalent of Israel?,because there is no scope for intelligence in Islam.You waste time praying for Allah for unseen paradise,where upon your men will get 72 damsels and 20 boys for fornication –what you women will have?. This is the ugly preachings of your Mohammed and his Allah. Tell me why Sunny kills Shea's and vice verse.Here too you blame the christian world and the Jews.Have some shame Lady !!! this is too much. Why can't you see the problem is Islam and not the rest of the world?. The day you get rid of this primitive and ugly religion,your good day's will begin the very moment –as well of this beautiful world !!.

@TnKuK
There are thousand reasons to say –when a Muslim commit the crime ,because by and large all these crimes are considered righteous things in Islam.For example,.1.Mohammed raped 6 year Ayesha when he was 54 year old (the same reasons were amply utilized by Ayatulla Khomeni for raping child brides under temporary marriages ,just Google there are a plenty videos around). 2.Mohammed married plenty of woman–he was not young.
3. He killed the husband,father and children of Saffiya and RAPED HER ON THE SAME NIGHT.
4.He looted Caravan's of businessmen and after killing the men took their women and children as slave.
5.He killed the 105 year old poetess in a gruesome manner,only for criticizing him. Do you think these are not crime,and if Muslims follow these same tendencies ,they are not emulating the prophet then.
Now about Jesus:
When Jesus was crucified he was hardly 31 year old smart man ,yet he was not married then.
Though he was criticized and persecuted by his opponent ,he never cursed them– forget about any retaliation with personal injury on them.
People tried to kill a woman by stoning her ,but the Savior saved her — look at Mohammed he sanctioned stoning of a woman for supposed adultery– she was having a child ,yet there was no mercy or sympathy .HE deprived the child–from the care of its mother(Infact he punished the child not the mother ,great justice) .It is my request to you please don't compare your rough ,criminal ,road robber pedophile Mohammed with Jesus the sage ,the Savior, the divine entity . Lastly we know Islam better than Muslim ,including you!!!.

Give me the proof that he didn't marry mary the copt from Ibn Saad and No one talked about Mary and Muhammed will not say to his friends i have marry mary the copt because it have non-sense and every one knew this and no one want to ask it's because of that there is no Hadith but Ibn Katheer talked about this and i gave you what he said okay and you don't know more than Ibn Katheer okay

No sorry they were free in their choses and no one say that if he divorce them they will go to hell they were just used to choose and they were happy to choose his when i saw in "sayid Qutb" book of Quran explanation they were all happy to choose him and wanted to be the only one who choosed him but the suprise is that all of them choosed him

No them all only those who did the mistake and i won't blame you because you don't know the place of the husband in Islam and he is a prophet and they broke the promise and it's not a good thing and God wanted us to know how epiation and that God know every thing

Because he didn't tell them to buld a montain he told them only to keep it a secret for their satisfation but they did a mistake wich is not good in this subject

It's according to you that //because even if he was mad he will never think to Di Vo Rc E them and he will not tell the whole world about his story okay// but the reality is that he is not what you think so stop your imagination for a while

// At last the truth came out. Muhammad is indeed the 'maker' of Quran. Right O!! //

It's a printing error i forgot "Not" and add " the " don't be so happy because i will never say such thing and He Is Not NoT nOT NOt noT NOT !!! not the maker of Quran because Quran is very wonderful for a Human Imagination and a Simple Human can't have such things in his mind

Umm do you know that Islam don't allow rape ? and if a Muslim rape a women Should be flogged 100 time ? if you don't know this now you know ! and don't accuse Islam with Human faults okay when a Christian rape a Girl the world don't accuse Jesus or the whole Christians they look at him as a Human but when a Muslim do the same they look at him as a Muslim no sorry look at him as a Human okay don't be racist and for you precious info's Islam deprives Rape okay and it's in Quran if you want the proof and it's in Surat El-Nour Verses 1-2-3

And Muhammed didn't rape Girls and it's your choice if you want to be raciste not mine and you don't know Muhammed you know what Raciste like you tell about him and it's not polite to judge someone according to haters opinion and i don't care if you choosed this way you are not my son anyway

AAhahaha 🙂 what a nice one you don't believe doesn't mean that it's non-existing and i have many many prooves as a contry of those who are "Manipulated" and i see everyday this hand so don't think that i'm lying and i have a little proof look at how America react to the Palastinian subject were Israel is killing kids and innocent people and many women and Mr,America is with Israel and say that it's terrorisme while all the world know that Israel is injuste this is an invisible hand and America is Manipulated by interest okay it's not Democracy it's interest and i don't say that the whole Jews there is a juwish organisation who manipulate this okay Including my Contry okay and America react by interest with Israel not with Human rights and it's like shining sun this reality and i told you why Muslims go to other contries and it's the reality if you don't want to understand it's your problem but the reality is reality even if you hate it and i don't really have time like you to think about Jews and be racist i don't care about them i have many important things than them

@TnKuK
//but for me i don't like to bring from his books i prefer Bukhari and Muslim because they are more Popular than him and it's the safe//
It doesn't matter who YOU have confidence in. What matters is what the truth is. And the truth is Mary the Copt was a concubine. There is the evidence from Ibn Sa'd and there are other historians too who opine much the same. On the other hand you haven't come up with a single Shahi hadith that says the Muhammad married Mary the Copt.

//i told you his wives were Used to choose between life and Muhammed it was their chance to divorce his//
And then go where? To the Islamic hell? remember Muhammad had already made life without Muhammad impossible for them. He made sure that the other muslims wouldn't marry any of the widows or divorced wives of Muhammad!! They chose Muhammad because there was no other option. It was the choice between life and death and they choose to live.

// their Wives will because jalouse if he re-drink honey in her house//
How could that be such a serious offense that he takes oath to divorce them all? Are you in your senses?

//so he get mad because they disobey him in a simple thing//
If you believe this then what you are saying is that Muhammad was also a bad tempered person who could be so annoyed due to such small playful behaviour from his wives!!!

//because even if he was mad he will never think to Di Vo Rc E them and he will not tell the whole world about his story okay//
I have quoted the hadith from Bhukhari. Go read it yourself.

//so he is the the Maker of Quran //
At last the truth came out. Muhammad is indeed the 'maker' of Quran. Right O!!

@TnKuK
//The Islam need Caliphs Okay //
What you say is pure unadulterated non-sense :-). You are saying that most Islamic and non-islamic countries are in the hand of the Jews. Do you have any proof of this? You are just being racist!!! Second it doesn't explain why muslims go and stay in democratic countries like England. And England isn't the only country that they are going to. After all you say that democracy isn't compatible with Islam. Shouldn't they stay behind in their respective country and try to salvage Islamic rule in their countries? I will tell you why. Everybody loves freedom and democracy and free market are the most beneficial systems which really frees you to make your life comfortable. Also existence of democracy also allows equality and ensures human rights. And this is something Islamic systems fails to. So we find thousands of muslims making these annual pilgrimage to western democratic countries.

@Demsci
I would like to bring to the kind attention of Shabeer and Tirkuk — how Muslims, world over emulate and follow religiously their pedophile prophet . This occurred some few day's back………..
A Muslim naming MUSTAFA , a pedophile skating instructor arrested on Sunday for the rape of a six-year-old girl in an east Bangalore (capital of Karnataka state in India )school allegedly tried to abuse at least four other children in the past three years. There are also doubts if he was using photos of his victims for pornography.
The police say — they have reliable information that he used to click photographs of children and would also show them obscene videos of children of another school (where he worked before 2011).
A big shocker was Mustafa owning an expensive mobile phone and having a couple of laptops even though he earned just Rs 18,000 per month. While the senior cops stopped at expressing surprise over the matter, another officer, suspect that his poor finances but sophisticated equipment, "There is a lot of money to be made on the dark side of Internet with child pornography. We will have to look into that aspect."
See how the preachings of this pedophile Mohammed is destroying the morals in the society –so disgusting!!!

About Morsi when i saw the Egyptians in "Rabi'a Al Adawiya" and when they were killed and when Cc say that he is afraid of Allah and showing himself as a good person and the problem is that he kill people in "Rabi'a" and claim to do nothing and glue the accuse to the Brotherhood who had no weapons and he was killing them and burned the Hospital to save himself and lying i fond that hearing him with such words " I'm afraid of God" ' i'm bla bla bla" was hysterical it was a nice cut to see if you want to laught a lot

In Islam no one is obligated to wear Hijab it's you who choose your way to Allah and it's you who choose how would you be with your God far or close because a Girl who wear Hijab but not convinced by Hijab and Hate it and didn't wear it by her will so she is counted as a non-wearer of Hijab someone who wear Hijab must to accept it and be happy while wearing it and with your own will and be convinced by the Hijab now you are counted from Hijabist not when someone order you to wear it or you will die sorry this is not Islam !

And i told you about This "Why does Muslims flee from Islamic state to the democratic ones " the same what i told Chuck and i will re-tell you mayebe you didn't see the comment and it's only one truth

II The Islam need Caliphs Okay but because of the world changes and Bla bla bla there is invisible hands who manipulate the Islamic Arabic world Okay Including Saoudi Arabia and this hand is jewish and it have it's own" Masonic Center" and it's because of that no one in the arabic Islamic contry can choose his prisident or even be free from Dictatory laws okay There is no Democracy there is dectatory okay in a couverture of Democracy and i know what i'm talking about but in NOn-Islamic Arabic contries who are in the side of Jewish Hand have the democracy and the rights and the evolution and the peace and if you don't know this Thanks to God i know it and i see it every day including my contry

And because of what i tell you Muslims want to leave in a place that is deffirent from their Manipulate contries okay so the go to England and many places that give them the rights that they lost in their manipulated dectatory contries we can't choose our Prisident we can do nothing what are you waiting from us Hah ?! and America is semblable to the Center okay they keep Islamic Arabic contries distroyed while they Buld their contries and have benifits from Islamic one and give Muslims the picture of "Underdevelopment" II

This is why they go to Democratic state because they want to live out of this disturbing and underdevelopement and no rights if you think that "we" choose our President No we don't and if you think that we are Islamic no we are not everyone is running behind the money and want just money and need only money and fight for money Just Money but when we choose our President it won't be like this and there is no contry who don't support Israel in an invisible hand because i told you that we need a caliph this president option i don't like it because it's full of lies and you can do nothing but a caliph is more good and more "non-money" person

No it forbids to take Kuffars as Allies the translation of the Quran in english Isn't extra true 100% it's not Friends it's "Allies"

No it's valid but for someone who suffer from something similar to what Muslims of that time sufferd from and until now no one sufferd from this exept Palestine and some Muslims Around the world so in Palestine they are traying to do what the Verses say it's very similar to the past including Borma

My whole problem is the time if i had much time it will be more serious and precise but i will try to do my best

Tnkuk wrote that the people of Egypt wanted Morsi, that is The Muslim Brotherhood, to rule.

Well, before they actually ruled, yes, they were democratically elected. But in a year's time it dawned on millions upon millions of Egyptians that: The Muslim Brotherhood was aiming for a dictatorial Islamic regime as like that in Iran.

And ten's of Millions of Egyptians THEN demonstrated against the Morsi-government in june 2013. I think they rightly saw that Morsi was like those who say: One man, one vote, one time!!! Like the Iranian Mullah's.

Look at Iran for the risk of fanatical Muslims in power! Per capita Iran hangs the most people in the world, 675 in 2013!, Yes, under Rouhani! But of course Khamenei is the real boss.

Women are second class citizens, forced to wear the hijab. They have "morality police" in Iran, isn't that awful!

It causes a huge so-called "brain-drain" out of Iran. Many bright, well educated Iranians flee Iran the first chance they get. Maybe 100.000's per year it seems, it is big problem that Rouhani openly acknowledged.

There are a lot of Iranians in America and also in my country and my city. What does that tell you? Why do the brightest Muslims flee FROM an Islamic state TO democratic states?!

Tnkuk wrote://" the Quran is my way and i accept all his laws untill now i didn't see injuste thing is Quran and it never tell to kill people and it never tell to hate people thoe war Verses were for Muslims of that time who sufferd from non-Muslims who used to beat them and kill them and kick them out and annoced war on them it's not for me'/?

Well, I, and Chuck and Ali Sina much better, and people like Nonie Darwish and Robert Spencer in a perfect way can show you exactly:

Where there are verses in Quran-Hadiths-Sira (QHS) that are either inciting violence to kuffars, esp. Jews, or that are speaking very negative of Kuffars or are emphasizing how Kuffars will be punished in the afterlife! There is even a verse that forbids Muslims to take Christians and Jews as friends!

On the internet is Bill Warner, he explained what contents QHS really has, and in all 3 parts, there is a very high % of verses dedicated to infidels and they are almost all negative!

Now you say that those verses were appropriate for the past and now no longer VALID. THAT is symbolical interpretation it seems to me. That helps.

But you must be prepared to get criticism when you interpret QHS like that. Because those that interpret it literally will call you a "bad Muslim". They will say that you don't consider the complete words of Allah VALID FOR ALL TIMES. Especially the Quran, which is the part that is considered COMPLETELY DIVINE. And IT says to emulate Mohammed. And the deeds of MOhammed are in the Hadiths-Sira.

Look, tnkuk, I realise that what you read from us is very unpleasant for you.

But in a sense we NEED Muslims like you here, because we can't debate on Pro-Islam-sites, they'll ban us almost immediately.

And here you have much attention. And you may see our conversations as challenges that make you stronger. So please keep arguing with me, Chuck and others for a while.

Tnkuk, this thread is getting so long. I like to answer you on the bottom of the comment section of this article and you can respond there so that we and Chuck can find our most recent comments easier, OK?

No people in Egypt wanted Morsi as a president but CC wanted to be president and killed everybody and ridiculs himself and claim to be a good man and as i told you it's not Muslims who choose their President he is choosen by an invisible hand the Islamic Arabic world is Melted you can't understand it's Just wow you must to be cultured about every thing to know the right from the wrong and those Boko and Isis and similar i don't have confidence on them because they kill without a right they kill just because it's a Christian or i don't know and killing themselves no no no no no no no Islam Isn't like that and Also America from the side of Borma and South Africa and Palestine Muslims are killed and Burned alive and i don't count America from the Democracy and Justice case because this is not Justice Democracy to Ignore killed Humens just because they are Muslims and claim that it's the Police of the world what ?! even if it was i can't accept such injustice and you will see it will happen a IV world war with Such melted problems and understanded situations and i don't say that America is bad the bad is to claim the Justice and be injuste and those who you call positive side its an interest work if you think that it's from a good thing it have interest a contry who want to have the power Must to have the confidence of the world and America is democratic and i know this but it's a long story may you don't know

And i told you that i will choose my own side i will choose what Quran say and it's the same with your democracy but with a few chages the Quran is my way and i accept all his laws untill now i didn't see injuste thing is Quran and it never tell to kill people and it never tell to hate people thoe war Verses were for Muslims of that time who sufferd from non-Muslims who used to beat them and kill them and kick them out and annoced war on them it's not for me or for Boko haram or for Isis it's for Muslims who suffer from such events and those who are for me are those who contain worship and ….etc

No our savants are the closest to islam see them not Nrmlpeople who have no cilture in Islam and Quran who interpret islam without a culture but i recommend you to see " Mohammed Husain Yaqub " and " Abu Ishak el Huwaini " and " El oraify" and many others including Ibn el Qayim my favorite savant and ibn uthaimeen and other they know what Islam mean okay and they do what Islam tell them okay but the fight Verses were come down for their Historical event and if something happens wich is similar to that Even we will do what is writen on the Quran for this event okay it's not like killing peaceful lives okay we are not ordred like this and i know my religion

// I think supremacist Muslims migrating to Democratic countries are disloyal and traitors to those countries. // i will reply you what i repleyed Cchuck

II The Islam need Caliphs Okay but because of the world changes and Bla bla bla there is invisible hands who manipulate the Islamic Arabic world Okay Including Saoudi Arabia and this hand is jewish and it have it's own" Masonic Center" and it's because of that no one in the arabic Islamic contry can choose his prisident or even be free from Dictatory laws okay There is no Democracy there is dectatory okay in a couverture of Democracy and i know what i'm talking about but in NOn-Islamic Arabic contries who are in the side of Jewish Hand have the democracy and the rights and the evolution and the peace and if you don't know this Thanks to God i know it and i see it every day including my contry

And because of what i tell you Muslims want to leave in a place that is deffirent from their Manipulate contries okay so the go to England and many places that give them the rights that they lost in their manipulated dectatory contries we can't choose our Prisident we can do nothing what are you waiting from us Hah ?! and America is semblable to the Center okay they keep Islamic Arabic contries distroyed while they Buld their contries and have benifits from Islamic one and give Muslims the picture of "Underdevelopment" II

and i know that Algeria will not be a TRUE Islamic contry because i told you why including the others but i know that it will change someone in the Future will create again the ISLAMIC state i have confidence but when ? it's a Question that will be answerd by time because i see in some Muslims the glitter of Hope not all becaause when you see them all there is no hope but when you see Muslims in Plestine and Syria i really think that some day it will change from this undevlopement there is a hope even if it's after the world war IV or before

//He did married many times later too. //
Ah and now you are telling me that he married after Aisha =__=" can you keep your wishes out of this conversations because he didn't marry after I Think "Mimouna"

I didn't tell you that Ibn Katheer didn't get it but i tell you what the verses tell it have many possibility and ibn Katheer told us a possibility okay it never mean that it's the righst one okay because he didn't marry after Aisha and it was many Beliver women and good ones okay

i didn't get what she try to say Give me the hadith please i prefer to see the hadith in Arabic and it is never like this he is not the inventer of Quran and he didn't marry after her and there was many women on that time okay

No it's a beautiful Verses from the side of syntax and the words choose and levels but i really like it sertenly verses in surat "El-Jin" ooh really the combining between the words and the sentences it's the best and if you memorize it it's more wonderful but i will re-tell you Quranic charm is in Arabic in english i don't really see charm in English because the English is a Cold language it's my opinion certenly in writing but in Arabic Quranic Verses it's the best me as an Arabian i learned Arabic but i have never seen Something like Quran in Arabic even when i saw poems of the big Poets of that time it have no relation and your Poems are 0s (many) cmparing to Quran it have non-charm for me and it's also cold because it have an english touch and it have no speciality i'm more impretionned by old arabic poems than this If and it's far from Quran Curan is Special and it's not me who want to see the beauty it's because i'm surprised by the beauty it's not my eyes who change the words it's my heart who understand it and when you understand it and see how wonderfully they are choosed and placed in arabic you can loose your mind what a beauty really sertenly in "(6:161-162-163)

No because you gived me a Poem wich is far from Quran and no one have a good language exept poets right so no one of your poets can give a simple Verses okay even if they are the most talented and this is a truth that you can't change

And there is one God okay not a million and Quran is Wonderful and no one can create something similar to Quranic Verses and no one in the whole existance have done something like this so please

And i'm not traying to fool it was a printing error ù_u because we have talk about Aisha a lot i didn't write "Mimouna" anyway thank you for Telling me i was going to say Aisha

Sorry but it's not a fault i was wondering how could Bukhari tell a talk difirent from Ibn saad ones and in the end i saw that there is 3 stories wich have the posibility to be the right reason of the Q Verses in "Tahreem" okay i thought that there is one story but i discover that there is 3 ones from 3 narraters Ibn saad and Bukhari and another and when i have seen "Sayid Qutb" explanation of Quranic verses i saw that he told us that i could be 3 trories one of them is the right this is all it's not like i tell you that Ibn saad is a liar but i was strange for me to see two diffirent stories but now i discover that there is 3 posibility for this verses and it's all

I didn't told you that Ibn Saad is a liar what's wrong with you i told you my opinion and i know that Ibn Katheer have confidence on his books but for me i don't like to bring from his books i prefer Bukhari and Muslim because they are more Popular than him and it's the safe

This is ibn katheer's "And says: {what possessed right hand which bestowed upon you} parties / 50, ie the permitted you concubinage, which took the spoils, was the king of descriptive and Juwayriyah Voatgahma and Tzugema and King Rihana girl Shimon Alndharah and Maria Coptic or his son Ibrahim peace be upon them and they were concubines, God bless them .
"Tafsir Ibn Kathir" (3/500)." and there is nothing In Muslim or Bukhari because no one talked about this subject including Aisha and no one asked for that because he Married her

No you didn't give me "an" example there no Wife who wanted to marry another man -_-" and live Happy and i told you his wives were Used to choose between life and Muhammed it was their chance to divorce his and do what you are saying happy life =_=" and they Choosed Muhammed

What wow i told you that every one tell the story from his side i didn't told you that Ibn Saad is a Liar no sertenly when Ibn Katheer think that his books are good i wanted to tell you that every one have his ver and every one have his opinion okay it's not like they went to Muhammed and he talked to them okay so the real verses in TAHREEM reason isn't 100% known okay there is 3 stories who have to possibility to be the true one and i didn't told you that the story of Ibn saad is Faulse okay so stop your Woows

their Wives will because jalouse if he re-drink honey in her house okay so for their plesure he said that he will not re do it again and he told them to keep it a secret to not invoke others and in the end they didn't keep the secret and told it so he get mad because they disobey him in a simple thing and it's not good and God Made this happening to teach us how the expiation okay it's a thing to learn

Haha noway it's not true sorry because even if he was mad he will never think to Di Vo Rc E them and he will not tell the whole world about his story okay so he is the the Maker of Quran and he is not like what you are expecting and imagining okay

The Islam need Caliphs Okay but because of the world changes and Bla bla bla there is invisible hands who manipulate the Islamic Arabic world Okay Including Saoudi Arabia and this hand is jewish and it have it's own" Masonic Center" and it's because of that no one in the arabic Islamic contry can choose his prisident or even be free from Dictatory laws okay There is no Democracy there is dectatory okay in a couverture of Democracy and i know what i'm talking about but in NOn-Islamic Arabic contries who are in the side of Jewish Hand have the democracy and the rights and the evolution and the peace and if you don't know this Thanks to God i know it and i see it every day including my contry

And because of what i tell you Muslims want to leave in a place that is deffirent from their Manipulate contries okay so the go to England and many places that give them the rights that they lost in their manipulated dectatory contries we can't choose our Prisident we can do nothing what are you waiting from us Hah ?! and America is semblable to the Center okay they keep Islamic Arabic contries distroyed while they Buld their contries and have benifits from Islamic one and give Muslims the picture of "Underdevelopment"

//" For me i choose to be in islam side not with boko./….etc and the democracy laws who have a few 4 or 5 laws who don't agree with Quran so i'm democratic but not fully only in this4 or 5 laws i'm with Quran i hope that you will understand me"//

The Islamic world is in turmoil and confusing. The people of Egypt have rejected Morsi + Muslim Brotherhood. Even now they do not support HAMAS against Israel!!! They still hate Israel, but they chastise and ridicule Hamas. Many Muslims reject Boko Haram, Taliban and now ISIS-caliphate. The confusion is great because ISIS is Sunni-Muslim and fighting Shia-Muslims, of Syria, Iraq and of course Iran and Hezbollah (which they call the party of the Devil). But we see among the Sunni's also many, many SPLITS. And ISIS crowds out Free Syrian Army and fights even them. And now many Sunni Muslims proclaim the absurd theory that America and Israel created ISIS! But at the same time we hear how cruel and oppressive ISIS is against Christians and how anti-Western their rhetoric is. And anti-Saudi Arabia, which itself is set against the Muslim Brotherhood, together with Egypt.

I think Muslims have to choose against radical Islam, both coming from ISIS and Muslim Brotherhood and also coming from Iran. Muslims should realise that America and the West are not the enemy and not really a danger to peaceful Muslims, not intent to conquer Islamic countries, only to let their people be free and democratic, esp. their women.

The real anti-democratic Muslims, that is Iran AND ISIS AND Muslim Brotherhood and such have hugely vilified America, which does have many faults, but still is innocent of many charges against it. and you should focus on America's many positive sides. Like receiving and maintaining under complete equal rights soooooo many Muslims (perhaps 5 to 8 million). Are they all supposed to hate and leave America?

It is precisely because America is the biggest obstacle for their totalitarian ideology that Iran and MB etc. vilify it.. You should investigate this and disbelieve these anti-democrats. You should take the side of the "democratic Muslims, who choose for a more symbolic interpretation of Quran-Hadiths-Sira.

You are now so confused and in the middle, so at risk to help those anti-women, oppressive, violent Muslims against those democratics who at least wish you your freedom and development.

//it's starge and i don't think that it convince me because i readed the story and it's not like what this hadith tell//
Reaction of Chuck to tnkuk: Tch tch. First you doubted Ibn Sa'd because apparently you don't think he referred Sahi Bukhari or Muslim and now when I show you a Sahi hadith from Bukhari you doubt the narrative?

tnkuk, we Westerners often enough admit our own faults and that of our society and beliefs.

But how will you be? Will you be like that old stubborn Shabeer, who – never admits any faults of his own or Islam. – often ignores challenges and runs away, only to come back with something else – and if he does respond denies everything even when the proof and logic are shown to him.

Or will you be a young flexible person, able to see problems with literal interpretation of Islam, and able to accept "valid evidence" and good logic?

Tnkuk, there ar e # 191 countries in the world and UN. 56 countries are in the OIC; Organisation of Islamic Countries. Most democratic people would not object to a division among countries between democratic and Islamic countries. So we are in agreement.

It is just that many Muslims seem to think that Islam must dominate the world and that they must not stop fighting until this happens. And this is because literal interpretation of Quran-Hadith-Sira (QHS) commands them to do so. It's just that you and other Muslims don't take everything so literally from QHS anymore and you take it more symbolically under Western Democratic influence.

And I am saying all along that Muslim(a)'s who interpret QHS more symbolically better join forces with the Democratic nations and people.

And that those who take QHS literally and are supremacist (wanting to conquer all mankind) and anti-Democratic should not be living in Democratic countries but in Islamic ones. Aren't the like snakes, prophiting from our countries, yet loyal to our enemies? (I am not talking about genuine democratic Muslims).

And Democratic countries should have a law of extraditing Islamic Supremacists to Islamic countries, who should be forced by us to take them in.

I think supremacist Muslims migrating to Democratic countries are disloyal and traitors to those countries.

I respect those ISIS-jihadists who burn their western passports in the sense that they do migrate to the new ISIS-caliphate, to the supremacist state they belong. I would like you to tell us why YOU don't consider migrating to the (ISIS) caliphate.

Or is it the case that you still have hope that in the future ALGERIA will be a fully Islamic country?

@TnKuK
//Democracy musn't dominate the world because it's not valable for some religions including Islam//
The very principles of Democracy (Jamurhiyat) means that it can never be imposed on a nation. It is a conscious decision of the populace to be democratic in all places where it became a reality. Second if democracy is so unpalatable to Muslims and Islamic principles then why does thousands of Muslim flee their countries every year and seek refuge in the Western democracies? I mean either they should continue to live in their home country or seek refuge in other rich or dominant Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Indonesia or Malaysia. And I amnot even touching the issue illegal Bangladeshi and Pakistani immigrants!!!

@TnKuK
//and Shabeer i think that he is Cultured about the Bibble a lot and such things//
There I have to shock you a bit. Shabeer is the master copy paster on this forum. He knows absolutely nothing about what he puts up here even including Islam.

@TnKuK
//1 – Hahaha if you think that Muhammed was the owner of Quran why would he tell himself to stop marry even if he loved hah so stop kidding yourself Quran isn't a Human made//
I have explained that using Kathir (why he would pretend to stop him). It is also clear from reading the history that he, in fact, didn't stop himself from marrying. He did married many times later too.

//2 No it wasn't a favor okay it's an order and an information for his wives okay //
I showed you what exactly Kathir says. His exegesis is the MOST FAMOUS AND RESPECTED tafsir. Now you are saying Kathir got it wrong?

//3 – i didn't understand what you want to say here//
What it says is that Muhammad made sure that this verse didn't come as a obstruction in his 'quest' to marry a few more. Aisha was a smart lady, she realized that Muhammad isn't going to deny himself and would invent some verse that will permit him to marry. So she says "The Messenger of Allah did not die until Allah permitted (marriage to other) women for him."

//the reallity of that Muhammed didn't marry after Aisha//
So you are saying he didn't marry Rayhana, Juwairiya, Safiyah etc? Who exactly are you trying to fool?

//when we see the Quran in Arabic it's the full Beauty and the words theme and many things that //
Don't talk rubbish. We aren't discussing Quran. When I see Quran, I only see garbage. You see beauty because you want to see beauty in it. It is called 'faith'. I see absolutely no beauty in verses like 9:5 etc.

//If you think that Quran is a human made give me a verses from your own creation//
:-). In fact all verses, poems etc are work of mankind. Pick up ANY. For example 'If' by Kipling (http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/if/) which is a far more a work of merit than anything in Quran. In fact if you think Quran IS NOT HUMAN CREATION then YOU have to prove that it is not

//no one of them could give a verses including us in that time and Muhammed wasn't a poet//
Are you telling me that Quran is a poem? If so tell me what kind of pattern, rhyme etc it follows.

And don't try to run away from the topic, we aren't discussing whether Quran is a work of man or some fictitious Allah, but whether it has enough material evidence to suggest that Muhammad was a person with glad eyes despite his advanced age.

@TnKuK
//The source is more important than the Talk itself //
:-). It was idiotic of you to deny Ibn Sa'd since he didn't quote Muslim or Bukhari. As I just proved, he was born before both these two and before Bukhari came out with his compendium of Sahi Hadiths, Ibn Sa'd was dead. Can you bring a single Sahi hadith that says Mary the Copt was married to Muhammad (From Bukhari or Muslim for example)? If you can please bring, else don't beat around the bush.

//where did you see that one of his wives wanted to marry another they were used to choose between Muhammed and live//
Again. I have given few examples of circumstances of the marriages. Do you see anything inaccurate in what I have said? If yes point those out, if not then accept what I proved.

//it's starge and i don't think that it convince me because i readed the story and it's not like what this hadith tell//
Tch tch. First you doubted Ibn Sa'd because apparently you don't think he referred Sahi Bukhari or Muslim and now when I show you a Sahi hadith from Bukhari you doubt the narrative? Wow, just wow!!!

//Bukhari said on this that that he drink honey and his oath is that he will never drink honey//
So you think drinking honey was so great an offense that: 1. Some of his wife decided to conspire against him. 2. And so grave was this conspiracy that he decided to divorce all of them (Or at least invoked his favorite Allah to utter threatening verses in Quran against these wives) ?? Utter foolishness.

//and if his problem was sex he will never think to divorce them okay //
Well, that was an oath taken in the heat of the moment. As soon as he realized that he couldn't survive that long without sex he uttered verses to make a safe passage for himself:-)

Thank you , but i want to rememmber you that Democracy musn't dominate the world because it's not valable for some religions including Islam and also Islam laws Musn't dominate the world to because it's the laws of only Muslims the other aren't obligated to accept Islamic laws because it's not for them this laws are for who is Muslim and believe in Islam

1 –> 1 – Hahaha if you think that Muhammed was the owner of Quran why would he tell himself to stop marry even if he loved hah so stop kidding yourself Quran isn't a Human made

2 –> 2 No it wasn't a favor okay it's an order and an information for his wives okay and there is Mr"Qutb" book on Quranic verses explain okay and it wasn't a favor for his wives it was an order for him and an information for his wives

3 – i didn't understand what you want to say here and we all die with the permetion of God okay even if you jump from a plane see people who still alive after jumping from a plane

4 – for your info's in that time it exist many Belivers women and Good womens okay and the reallity of that Muhammed didn't marry after Aisha it's the full proof okay and if Muhammed was the owner of the Quran he will not deprives himself from many things and when we see the Quran in Arabic it's the full Beauty and the words theme and many things that it's really not a human made and i have seen many arabian poets and it have no similarity with Quran but Quran is Wonderful the words and in my contry our Mjor language is Arabic + french but more Arabic i have never seen something like Quran it's wonderful all it's charme is in Arabic arabic is wonderful

If you think that Quran is a human made give me a verses from your own creation

pro's of arabic of Muhammeds time were surprised by Quran and no one of them could give a verses including us in that time and Muhammed wasn't a poet and don't have an imagination to give us a huge religion and wonderful one like Islam it's not a human made because it's special

The source is more important than the Talk itself and i'm not a savant of Islam to know all this i also don't have time to read about ollllllld Imams so i take the most confident by Savants of that time Savants know every confident source so i follow their chose because they are specialized on this and they have confidence in Bukhari and Muslim and Ibn al Qayim and me too and Ibn Katheer …etc and i also have confidence on them and i don't have confidence only because it's not similar for savants to bring Hadith from his books and bring them always from Muslim and Bukhari …. anyway

Haaah ?! ._. where did you see that one of his wives wanted to marry another they were used to choose between Muhammed and live and it's in a verses and it was between divorce and stay with Muhammed they wanted to stay and also a wife of a prophet can refuse him from the bigining okay she could refuse his marriage and alse they were used to choose and in the end they wanted this life and this hadith is it in Muslim or Bukhari ? it's starge and i don't think that it convince me because i readed the story and it's not like what this hadith tell and it have no secual connotations stop imagining please ù_u and Bukhari said on this that that he drink honey and his oath is that he will never drink honey at "zineb" house okay this is all ! and he was going to divorce them but when the verses comes it's ended the situation okay and there is the possibility of 3 situation i think

and if his problem was sex he will never think to divorce them okay including Aisha see the Bukharis ver

Humm.. But i always disagree with Nonie because she didn't give us a Hadith or a proof for her laws and it's impolite to do this and spray them just like this and make people hate Islam

Yes i have my own interpretation that is the same of our Savants one and i'm convinced with it and i tell every one to know the history of the verses then he can interpret it according to the situation that it come down on it and this is an inmpostant thing the History of the Verses

The Quranic Islamic Laws are Valable just for Muslims who believe in Quran and not valable to others who don't believe and this is the hugest point in this Democracy problem you haven't the right to apply your rules on every one inCluding Islam apply it's rules in Muslims only them because they follow Islam and they accepted all this and you are comparing rules of Non-Muslims with Muslims law and we don't care about non Muslims rules i hope that you get what i want to make you understand because it's your faults first step

Demsci:But, Shabeer, did you EVER admit faults and shortcomings of Islam here? //

I believe that's one of the hallmarks of psychopathy,an inability to self-evaluate and assess our own short comings.Muslims are victims while everyone else is guilty.Yet,they fail to realize they're the common factor in the majority of ongoing wars across the globe.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_arme…

It is in the (Western) nature of all 3 of us to admits faults of our countries and the ideologies or society-organisation that we adhere to. And you may challenge us to show it. but I have seen numerous posts of Chuck and Phoenix already which criticized another Westerner, Mysticalmind3.

But, Shabeer, did you EVER admit faults and shortcomings of Islam here?

We, I daresay, never call our societies and ideologies perfect, but we COMPARE and say, these are the least worse countries and ideologies.

Have you ever said anything like that; that is: Oh, Islam has many faults and shortcomings BUT still it is the LEAST WORSE ideology for countries and behavior of people?

No, because, we are much more modest about our ideologies and you are much more arrogant about yours. Claiming it to be divine, thus perfect, no less! We never presume that!

Shabeer, you defend Islam and Islamic countries (which for you should NOT show worse behavior and circumstances than democratic and other countries, because then Islam could be blamed for that).

I often defend America against Muslims, who target it with really vicious illogical attacks.

I think you make the mistake of TU QUOQUE. Because when Islam + Islamic countries are criticized you often resort to showing the faults, shortcomings of the same type of the criticism (like pedophilia, crime, violence) in other countries. And you never admit that Islamic countries ALSO have the same mistakes. But you (and I) can't exonerate countries, just because other countries have the same faults (which I recognize, but you don't).

But other than committing Tu Quoque you are right to COMPARE countries and influence of Islam and non-Islamic ideologies IMO.

When I defend America I try not to exonerate America from it's faults, but admit them. BUT I, like you, try to COMPARE countries all over the world.

But YOU confine yourself to NEGATIVE statistics and you ignore the positive statistics of Democratic countries always, and never acknowledge them when we show them to you. And you almost never are able to show positive statistics for Islamic countries (that are better or even equal to those of democratic countries).

And THUS&nbsp;your conclusions are worthless, like village-gossip, only focusing on the faults of others, never admitting the faults of your own religion,

not even when followers of other beliefs graciously admit their own. You show yourself to be very prejudiced.

And I daresay we in the West were in the past quite like you, but since then we at least try to be more self-critical and measure all countries by the same yard-sticks.

And so many Westerners in my experience are actually attacking their own countries and making excuses for the Muslims. But don't you see; that is an invitation to you Muslims to do the same! And it is not fair to take advantage of our self-criticism and honesty!

Interesting in my life is that I at times can be and am in hot discussion about AMERICA, with 2 Muslim co-workers. What I respect in these Muslims is that they and I speak respectfully with each other and do not hate/ despise others with different opinion, and that we can all still work with pleasure with each other.

But in arguing they are a lot like Shabeer. And there is a difference in the way that I defend America against Muslims and the way Shabeer defends Islam against us counterjihadists.

Relevant in my reasoning is that there are both negative statistics, about negative behavior & circumstances and positive statistics, about positive behavior & statistics.

I often freely admit facts and faults and shortcomingsof America. While Shabeer never ever admits the faults and shortcomings of Islam.

And America openly admit's it's mistakes and negative statistics. And (part of, many) Muslims misuse this, they are prophiting from America's openness & honesty. And when criticizing America they refuse (in my experience) to listen to

A. Evidence that most of the other 191 countries have the same behavior & circumstances or worse. B. Evidence that America has many advantages that make it show invariably at least in the top 20 of countries for good behavior & circumstances.

For me it is very important both for judging Islam and America to
A. See all the countries together and compare. B. Look at both the positive and the negative statistics.
C. Look at the historical context as much as possible.

And we know that negative statistics, in corrupt countries, without freedom of opinion, and of the press, with the threat of violence hanging over all protesters, can be suppressed.

But it is much harder for countries to come up with positive statistics when the good behavior and circumstances are not …… as good as those of the Western, Democratic countries, like America.

So in a context of all countries and of history and with honest and total comparison between all countries I think America wins much more than Islam. America wins much more in positive statistics. Islam can only try to win by suppressing negative statistics, it seems to me.

Real pedophile?As opposed to a fake pedophile?Yeah,I think you've officially crossed over from being ignorant (which is forgivable) to being criminally insane.I suggest you have a cat scan to locate the tumor that's pressing on the cognitive processing centre of your brain.http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophi…
Our experts inform us that a pedophile is an adult who has a sexual relationship with children 13 years or younger.Now your only defense is that although Aisha was 9 she had attained puberty.There's at least 2 problems with this.All the evidence in the hadith points to Aisha being pre-pubescent at the time.And pre-pubescent or not, it is still illegal to sleep with a 9 year old girl.Either way,Muhammad was still a pedophile.

@Shabeer
Once you have gone through the stats read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in… to find who the consumers of sex trafficking are. A challenge in combating human trafficking in Middle Eastern countries is that the governments deny there is a problem. This indicates why these muslim countries don't figure in these lists. Ever heard of Napier Road? It is the prostitution capital of Karachi one of the largest center of human trafficking. Even in India most of the red light areas are in muslim dominated neighbourhoods, most of the pimps are muslims who purchase women mostly from poor hindu and tribal families. Kamathipura, Asia’s largest red light district, is situated in the heart of an area dominated by Muslims.

If the muslim countries don't figure in such lists it is because they don't share these data.

//The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.//
All children are gifts of God. Even a child of adultery is a produce of God and is as innocent as any other child. She/he can't be worse than any other child.

@Shabeer
//THAT IS ONE OF THE HISTORICAL TRUTH //
I asked you 3 questions and you were only required to answer 1 and 3, in Yes and No. Very simple. just say this that do you agree with the Sahi Hadiths that say Aisha was 6 when she was married to Muhammad and 9 when this marriage was consummated? If this is true then why were you trying to prove that she a grwon up girl of around 16 when she was married?

@Shabeer
You said Islamic marriage requires puberty. Right? Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6. Right? Do you think she had attained puberty before 6?
What kind of a man, who himself is 50, thinks that a 6 year old child of a brother like friend is fit for making a wife? Do you harbour any such feelings for your friends' daughter? Should you? Also what is your position about Aisha's age at marriage? 6 or something else' You have been giving conflicting opinions, sometimes 6 sometimes 16. Fix it and then comment. by the way even your link says that puberty starts between 8 and 13, doesn't mean the girl is fit to bear a child or have sex when it begins. Moreover since the average age of menarche is about 11-12, it means only very small number of girls actually experience it at 9. Also here is a quote from your own response: "Tanner stage one describes the changes that take place in your body before the onset of puberty<b>". Do you understand what it is saying?

CHILD SEX TOURISM :MAKING MONEY FOR FORCED RAPING WITH CHILD
Thailand : 40% of prostitutes are child in Thailand
Northern Italy: 40% of prostitution affects minors.
Cambodia: 1/3 of prostitutes are child
India : 1.2 million child prostitutes
Brazil: 1.2 million child prostitutes
United States: Between 244,000 to 325,000 child prostitutes.
China: It is estimated that there are between 200,000 and 500,000 child prostitutes.
Mexico:16,000 children in Mexico were involved in prostitution
Sri Lanka, there are nearly 40,000 child prostitutes
In the Philippines, there are 60,000 to 100,000 prostituted children
In Nepal approximately 30% of them were found to be children.
in Vietnam, and 20,000 of these are children.
in Ukraine, research has shown that between 30 and 40 percent of prostitutes are between 11 and 18 years
in Russia approximately 20 to 25 percent of Moscow's sex workers are minors. Shttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sex_tourism

TAKE 100000 OF LONG STICK BEAT U'R SELF & THEM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE , EACH BEAT U SAYS
Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.
BEAT
Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.
BEAT
Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.
CONTINUE LIKE THIS UNTIL ALL THE PEDOPHILE CAN UNDERSTAND THE PROPHET WARNING & ADVICE ,THEY COME TO THE REAL/TRUE WORLD PPL LIKE MUSLIMS……………..

THAT IS ONE OF THE HISTORICAL TRUTH ,THAT GIVE THE TRUE HISTORY ABOUT THE PROPHET & HIS WIFE, I AM NOT NEED IT TO PROOF OF THIS,ABOVE HISTORICAL DETAILS ARE TRUTH ,I AM ALREADY PROVED MY CLAIM WITH VALID EVIDENCE
FOR U I REPEAT AGAIN:
FOR MARRIAGE GIRL MUST REACH HER PUBERTY LEVEL.
[017:034] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the ''age of full strength''; and fulfill (every) ''engagement'', for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
[004:006] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up.
[024:059] But when the children among you ''come of age'', let them (also) ask for ''permission'', as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does God make clear His Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 86 :: Hadith 101
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then >>>>>>>she attains the age of puberty and agrees to marry him <<<<<<<<<<<and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."
Dawud :: Book 11 : Hadith 2091
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice.

I think Muhammad's pedophilia scandal is one of the most powerful weapons we have that will force muslims to take a critical look their holy prophet.
Unfortunately muslims also fail to see the contradiction when they claim that their "universal exemplar" Muhammad's customs was a norm at the time but admittedly cannot be admissable today in non-muslim socieites.

With the argument that it was 'customary" at the time, not only among the Arabs, but among many peoples, including the Romans. And persevering very long in history too.//
That's true but all the barbaric roman customs such as slavery,forced suicides,religious persecution and the circus arena blood games are long dead.Besides,it was known long before Muhammad that pedophilia was immoral.Buddhist texts don't glorify it and neither does the most popular Hindu texts of the Baghavad Gita.Neither did Jesus and his followers engage in it

One Westerner, in my presence, even defended Mohammed, pointing to the scandalous "pedophilic" behavior of Roman Catholic priests//
A truly honest look at the church scandal will reveal a completely different cause.Islamic pedophilia is sunnah,legal and moral to all muslims that's why they marry their child brides openly.While the church scandal is considered immoral to its practitioners and was not a model practice by the its founder and the first christians.I know,muslims and their appeasers will now start quoting the OT,where jewish fighters took young girls as booty and married them.

//"i think that in Islam it's deffirent because you can't hate Islam but you hate the sinner because he is who interpret islam in the wrong way"//

Thanks for admitting that there well might be "wrong way to interpret Islam (Quran-Hadiths-Sira plus Islamic scholars with Tafseer).

And thanks for thinking about and responding to "sin & sinner"-analogy. With this analogy we try to distinquish between ideology and follower.

We, ordinary people, have problems with some ideologies, but we understand that their followers are complex human beings, who may well have excellent, lovable qualities and anyway, followers have feelings and they have human rights we like to protect.

And if "we" are "democratic" people of diverse religions, and "you" are Muslims, with perhaps Khalifate-designs and different views on human and women's rights etc. then both sides can consider the other side as "sinners", because of being followers of "bad ideology" or "sin". Who attack each other's ideology but still respect each other.

Under democracy there is freedom of religion. but there are borders to this freedom. If in a tolerant society there are people who openly follow and promote an INTOLERANT ideology/ religion, then the very tolerance of the whole society is in danger, because of the risk of the Intolerants taking over.

This is why in England for centuries the catholic English, considered followers of a tyrannical intolerant Roman Catholic church, were denied some rights, like owning land or being in certain governing positions. And also why the neo-Nazi-party is now forbidden in Germany.

So I hope that there are many genuine TOLERANT Muslims and that only the "radical" Muslims do follow an intolerant ideology. But I, like many other "infidels", am "not entirely sure".

//"1)FIRST WHAT ABOUT ISLAM LAW STRICT COUNTRIES LIKE SAUDI/KUWAIT,ETC………..
THE ABOVE COUNTRIES ARE NOT RULED BY ISLAMIC ,THERE IS NO VALUABLE EVIDENCE IS THERE FOR THEIR CLAIM, "//

The "above countries" Phoenix presented were:
Niger 75% are underage brides
Chad 68% are underage
Bangladesh 66% of the brides are underage
Mali 65% of girls are underage
Afghanistan 57% of brides are under age
Somalia 45% underage brides"//

What defence is this from you Shabeer? These are predominantly Islamic countries! Almost all citizens, including the leaders and lawgivers, were Islamic for hundreds of years in these countries.

So if you under those circumstances say that "they are not ruled by Islamic", does that not mean that Islamic influence is really weak and that it failed! And if it failed, should, after 1400 years, not the whole enterprise be given up? Or are you like the insane, trying to do the same thing over and over again, but still expecting a different outcome?

Or perhaps you argue that the laws of these countries were "changed" by colonial powers? But how weak or strong is Islam if it after the colonial powers leaving cannot correct the laws?

Anyway, what good does it bring to the above countries that almost all citizens are Muslims??? Not much, at least on critical issues, like child-marriage, forced marriage, honor killings, domestic abuse, when one examines the statistics of the above mentioned countries.

Your best argument seems to be that" Islam at least makes not much difference, either for bad or good". So again, what good is Islam? What good has become of Allah's plan for mankind? From the time of the Call to Mohammed until now? What difference has it really made? Why couldn't this "call" achieve more? At least more than what the infidels, without the "call" and it's consequent changes, also achieved?

Chuck, Phoenix, very interesting. Thanks for presenting again the relevant passages so conveniently + for presenting the "dilemma" for Muslims.

I agree with you. While I am out of my depth to definitively make and defend a choice myself, I do see that Muslims have he choice of either accepting the young age of Aisha or disputing it. And I see the disadvantages of both positions. I actually once had a Muslima, out of her own volition, "admit" the YOUNG age-version, but with a lot of explaining why it happened and that it did not mean that Mohammed was pedophile. I only nodded at that occasion, not daring to rake up a confronting discussion with her, a colleague, whom I hardly knew.

In print/ posts often have I seen defence for the Young-age-defence, including from Shabeer. With the argument that it was 'customary" at the time, not only among the Arabs, but among many peoples, including the Romans. And persevering very long in history too. And there is admittedly a lot of truth in this. One Westerner, in my presence, even defended Mohammed, pointing to the scandalous "pedophilic" behavior of Roman Catholic priests! As if that nullified all recriminations against Muslims revering Mohammed as an ideal example! That Westerner then was not receptive to my responses + the subject was changed soon thereafter. This is often how it goes with "political-correct" Westerners, who wish to be impartial and not discriminating against Muslims.

Anyway, the other defence, that of Aisha being OLDER than 6 at marriage, also had grave disadvantages for Muslims, as you point out. It seems to me to make even Sahih Hadiths untrustworthy and only partially true. BUT, like the Quran, IMMUTABLE. So only INTERPRETATIONS of Quran-Hadiths-Sira may vary. BUT a. Interpretations may VARY very much, when parts of texts are not trustworthy and b. there is no authority in Islam to determine which interpretation of crucially important texts, who determine peaceful, democratic, lawful or warlike, supremacist, violent, criminal behavior in Muslims, is the "official" one, which must be upheld by the "Ummah".

And so now when the supremacist, violent interpretations of vaque, partially untrustworthy verses in Quran-Hadith-Sira are expressed and acted upon by self-confessed "radical" Muslims, the other Muslims get embarrassed, and they try to say to us that the "Islamists" are not real Muslims!

I hope and think this situation is beginning to confuse & worry more & more Muslims.

//"Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465;
Narrated 'Aisha;
(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty&;[THAT MEANS SHE WAS MATURED GIRL ,WHEN HER PARENTS ARE [BEGIN]FOLLOWING THE ISLAM]"//

Yes, THIS is what Shabeer wrote! And I believe Phoenix when he says the Muslim sources say that Aisha was born in 613 or 614. Fascinating. I now get a clearer picture for myself; Mohammed was born # 570 AD. He married Khadija at age 25, so in # 595 AD. The CALL (as Shabeer's Muslim sources call it) he received in 610 AD. And Abu Bakr was presumably a friend and very early follower of Mohammed. So how can it be that Aisha wrote that she ONLY at the age of puberty had seen her parents follow Islam???

I surmised that Khadija died # 619 AD. And of course the Hijra was in 622 AD. Now I gather that Mohammed married Aisha at 620 AD, at HIS age 50 and HER age 6. But he consummated this marriage "only" in 623. And this marriage then lasted until his death in 632, when he was 62 and she 18.

How detailed is the documenting of the life of this man and this marriage it seems. So Mohammed was monogamous until age 50, mostly in a modest position and still struggling, but thereafter, in a powerful position, from 50 until 62, married # 11 women! &nbsp;Among whom was young Aisha. Very interesting! So, on principle, Muslims have to "defend" the moral example of this life and these marriages.

@shabeer
//Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three. //
How does that stop you from marrying and then having sex with a child of 3 if she suffers from precocious puberty? By the way, even a child of adultery is a child, it can't be worse than any other child.

Rest of what you have written have already been responded to in various other threads.

@Shabeer
//I PROVED CHILD MARRIAGE AGAINST ISLAM ,ISLAM AGREED MARRIAGE ONLY WITH GIRL PERMISSION///
But you have actually also proved that Islam permits you to speak lies and use false witness to force consent of a girl if she has initially refused. As in Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 86 :: Hadith 101If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her

@Chuck
Exactly.
But Shabeer does have a few options.He could a)reject the entire hadith or b) reject only the embarrasing parts or c)Show us evidence from Islamic historians that Aisha was of legal age.

Here are some problems he could encounter should he assume any of the above:
a)Rejecting the entire hadith would result in muslims being unable to perform islamic rituals.The quran would also be unintelligble,as many ayats rely on hadith to make sense of them.
b)On what basis can a muslim reject the embarrasing parts only,especially when they're supported by the quran?This would require permission from islamic texts.
c)Ancient islamic historians like Tabari confirms Aisha was 9 when Muhammad slept with her.A muslim would need to present an authentic islamic historian prior to Tabari that deny Aisha's child marriage.

@Shabeer,
Do you even read or just copy paste? I can quash each of these and I will once I have enough time. But for the time being tell us the following:
1. Do you think both Bhukari and Muslim got it wrong in their Sahi Hadith collection?
2. If yes, why do you think we should consider all the other references that you give from them, authentic (Like the one for marriage)?
3. Do you agree that Aisha was married in the year 620 AD and Muhammad entered her in 623 AD.
Answer these questions, 1, and 3 in Yes/No, then I will go ahead and show you how the above are all misfit description of the events.

Bukhari 7:62:88Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his deathhttp://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…

Sunan Abu Dawd:41:4915Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Abu Dawd 41:4917 Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine.

What some Islamic scholars say regarding Aisha's age has no bearing on the actual accounts recorded in Sahih Hadiths.They're embarrassed so now they claim Aisha's age should be measured in dog years to exonerate Muhammad of pedophilia.Let's look at what the hadiths say: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…
Muslim 8:3310:Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: "Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…
Bukhari 5:58:234Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
(Notice in the above hadith,Aisha did not expect to be taken from her home at nine,she was confused.)http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…
Muslim 8:3311'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
(Notice in this hadith,Aisha was still playing with her dolls,which is a sign of pre-pubescence)http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…
Bukhari 5:58:236:Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…
Bukhari 7:62:64Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

Bukhari7:62:65 Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

#a child starts menstruating at 2………..
GO TO ADVICE U'R FATHER /HE MARRIED U'R MOTHER BELOW 2 ACCORDING TO U'R RELIGIOUS RULE:
Manu 9:94. A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.
Vishnu Purana III:10 If he marry,he must select a maiden who is of a third his age,one who has not too much hair,but is not without any,one who is not very black or yellow complexioned and who is not from birth a cripple or deformed…”

Mahabharata XLIV (p.18)A person of thirty years of age should wed a girl of ten years of age called a Nagnika. Or, a person of one and twenty years of age should wed a girl of seven years of age.

Baudhayana:Prasna 4:Adhyaya1
11. Let him give his daughter, while she still goes naked, to a man who has not broken the vow of chastity and who possesses good qualities, or even to one destitute of good qualities; let him not keep (the maiden) in (his house) after she has reached the age of puberty”

Sacred Laws of Arya:Gautama 18:21. A girl should be given in marriage before (she attains the age of) puberty
22.He who neglects it, commits sin
23.Some (declare, that a girl shall be given in marriage) before she wears clothes.

1000 child sex slaves
Mahabharata 1:CCXXII And he of eyes like lotus-petals also gave unto them a thousand damsels well-skilled in assisting at bathing and at drinking, young in years and virgins all before their first-season, well-attired and of excellent complexion, each wearing a hundred pieces of gold around her neck, of skins perfectly polished, decked with every ornament, and well-skilled in every kind of personal service.

TAKE A LONG STICK ,BEAT FIRST U'R SELF & ALL MEMBERS OF PEDOPHILE(HINDUS/CHRISTIAN/JEW/ATHEIST),………FOR EACH BEAT U SAYS
Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The child of adultery is worst of the three.

#product of a swine………………..
ISLAM NOT PROMOTE SEX WITH SWINE ………………..SO U HAVE NO VOICE/RIGHT TO TALKING LIKE THAT ……….
BUT I HAVE RIGHT TO SAYS U R PRODUCT OF HORSES ,BEC'S U AGREED VEDA PROMOTE /SUPPORT IT………….

ANIMAL SEX & CHUCK(PRODUCT OF HORSE)
PROOF:
Yajur Veda 23.19-21
All wife of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband’. After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says: ‘O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception. The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu(priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: “This horse may release semen in me. Then the host, while praying to the horse says: “O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively.
OR PRODUCT OF BUFFALO:
”As a buffalo (Indra) desired the lusty female born from himself; the mena of the horse he made into the mother of the cow”- Rig Veda 1.121.2,
Saranyu daughter of Tvastr bore twins, Yama and Yami, to Vivasvat the sun. She having substituted another lady of similar appearance, and having assumed the shape of a mare, ran away. He, Vivasvat, the sun, having also assumed the shape of a horse, pursued her, and joined her. Thence the Asvins were born. Manu was born from the lady of similar appearance.” Nirukta 12.10
”Attendant on the Blessed Dame the Blessed hath come: the Lover followeth his Sister. Agni, far-spreading with conspicuous lustre…”- Rig Veda 10.3.3
Rig Veda 10.61.5,7 (Rudra), the benefactor of man, whose eager virile energy was developed, drew it back when disseminated (for the generation of offspring)again the irresistible (Rudra) concentrates (the energy) which was communicated to his maiden daughter. [7]. When the father united with the daughter, then associating with the earth, he sprinkled it with the effusion[Semen]:
”May my memory, navel, knowledge, anus, my wife’s productive womb [Yoni/Vagina], my testicles the givers of pleasure through cohabitation, my
sovereignty and penis flourish.…”Yajur Veda 20.9, Tr. Devi Chand [Arya Samaj] page no 213

There are other important events recorded in history which provide definite evidence about the age of Hazrat ‘Aishah.

1. The well-known historian Ibn Jareer al-Tabari writes at page 50 of volume 4 of his 'Book of History': "Abu Bakr married two ladies in the days of ignorance (pre-Call era). Fateelah daughter of Abd al-Aza was the first, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Umm-i-Rooman was the second, from whom Abd al-Rahman and ‘Aishah were born. All the four children of Abu Bakr were born in the days of ignorance (Jahiliyyah, i.e., pre-Islamic days) from the above-named two ladies.

2. It is a well-known fact of history, that Abu Bakr’s son Abd al-Rahman fought against the Muslims in the battle of Badr. His age at that time was 21-22 years, and although he was older than ‘Aishah, there is no evidence to show that the difference between their ages was more than three or four years. This fact lends support to the view that Hazrat ‘Aishah was born four or five years before the Call.

3. The well-known historian and scholar ‘Allama ‘Imad-ud-Deen Ibn Katheer writes in his 'Al-Badayah' about Sayedah Asma’ daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr’ (Allah be pleased with him) (and we hope Maulana Syed Abul Ala Maududi must have seen it as he referred to 'Al-Badaya' in his article): Asma’ died in 73 A.H. at the age of 100 years. She was ten years older than her sister ‘Aishah. Now according to this report ‘Asma’ would have been 27-28 years old at the time of Hijrah and since she was ten years older than Sayedah ‘Aishah, therefore the age of Sayedah ‘Aishah would have been 17 or 18 years at the time of Hijrah. Accordingly, her birth falls about four or five years before the Call, and her age at the time of the consummation of marriage in 2 A.H. will work out to 19-20 years.

4. The author of the well-known collection of Hadith 'Mishkat al-Masabeeh', Sheikh Waheed-ud-Deen, writes in his well-known book 'Ahmal fi Asma’ al-Rijjal':

"At the time of the consummation of her marriage Sayedah ‘Aishah’s age was not less than 18-19 years."

All the above quotations give ample refutation to the common misconception that Sayedah ‘Aishah’s age at the time of her Nikah was 6 years and at the time of consummation of marriage it was only 9 years. If Muslim scholars of the present era deem fit to make an objective research instead of beating the old track, they will find ample material in the pages of history to arrive at a correct age for Sayedah ‘Aishah. This indeed would be a great service to the cause of Islam. – Islamic Review, December 1980, U.S.A. http://www.answering-christianity.com/aishahage.h…

SOME ISLAMIC SCHOLARS SAYS #Some historical evidence shows that Aisha was 19-21 when the Prophet married her.#

Maulana Syed Sulaiman Nadvi writes on page 21 of his book 'Seerat-i-Aishah':
"Books of history and biography are generally silent about the birth date of Hazrat ‘Aishah. The historian Ibn Sa’d, whom many later biographers have followed, has written that Hazrat ‘Aishah was born in the fourth year of the Call, and was married at the age of 6 years in the tenth year of the Call. Apparently this cannot be correct, because if her birth in the fourth year of the Call be admitted as correct then her age at the time of her marriage in the tenth year of the Call works out to 7 and not 6 years. The fact remains that some matters about the age of Hazrat ‘Aishah are admitted to be correct by most historians and biographers, and these are: She was married three years before Hijrah at the age of six years; the marriage was consummated in the month of Shawal in the year 1 A.H. when she was 9 years old, and she became a widow in Rabi-al-Awwal 11 A.H., at the age of 18 years. According to this account, the correct date of her birth works out to the end of the fifth year of the Call or 614 A.D. of the Christian calendar. For a proper comprehension of the events of history, one should bear in mind that out of a total period of 23 years of the Call, the first 13 years were passed in Mecca and the last 10 years in Madina. Thus, the fourth year of the Call had already been out before her birth and the fifth year was running."

That she had not attained majority is clear enough, but that she was not so young as six years of age is also true. In the first place, it is clear that she had reached an age when betrothal could take place in the ordinary course and must therefore have been approaching the age of majority. Again, the Isabah, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatimah, says that she was about five years older than ‘Aishah. It is a well-established fact that Fatimah was born when the Ka’bah was being rebuilt, i.e., five years before the Call or a little before it, and so ‘Aishah was certainly not below ten years at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in the tenth year of the Call. This conclusion is borne out by the testimony of ‘Aishah herself who is reported to have related that when the chapter entitled ‘The Moon’ (the 54th chapter) was revealed she was a girl playing about and that she remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter could not have been revealed later than the fifth year of the Call, and therefore the report which states her to have been six years old in the tenth year of the Call when her marriage ceremony was gone through cannot be correct, because this would show her to have born about the time of the revelation of the 54th chapter. All these considerations show her to have been not less than ten years old at the time of her marriage. And as the period between her marriage and its consummation was not less than five years, because the consummation took place in the second year of the Fight, it follows that she could not have been less than fifteen at that time. The popular account that she was six years at marriage and nine years at the time of consummation is decidedly not correct, because it supposes the period between the marriage and its consummation to be only three years, while this is historically wrong."

Chuck:SINCE WHEN she started understanding that her parents were following Islam because her parents were already following Islam even before she was born!! //
I just checked muslim sources and it's confirmed.Her father was a muslim before she was born.
Aisha was born in the year 613 or 614 AD depending on your sources.And her father became a muslim in the year 610 AD,at least 3 to 4 years before Aisha's birth.
I guess now Shabeer will say Aisha attained puberty at birth.

@Shabeer
//THE SAME LINK FIRST RULE SAYS THAT:
A MAN MAY GIVE HIS DAUGHTER IN BETROTHAL WHEN A
NA'ARAH [EITHER] HIMSELF OR
THROUGH HIS AGENT
>>>>>>>GIRL CONSENT NOT HERE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
// And then continues to say: Only when a Na'arah, but not when a minor: this supports Rab. For Rab Judah said in Rab's name: One may not give his daughter in betrothal when a minor, [but must wait] until she grows up and says: ‘I want So-and-so’. Which implies only when the daughter is able to give consent.

//TODAY WORLD ARE DISCUSSING THE PEDOPHILES HISTORY OF JEWISH TALMUD //
And as well as that of Islam.

@Shabeer
//I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty//
So are you saying that her parents were not Muslims till the time she attained puberty? :-). Thats a foolish conclusion because Abu Bakr was already a muslim when Aisha was born in 614 AD. Aisha married Muhammad in 620 AD, and according to you must already have attained puberty by then (Since you say that Islam only permits marriage only for girls who have had menses already). So @Phoenix's interpretation must be correct, that in this hadith she is only saying SINCE WHEN she started understanding that her parents were following Islam because her parents were already following Islam even before she was born!!

playing with the dolls & 9 YEAR OLD IS NOT SYMBOLS /EVIDENCE/PROOF OF >>>BEFORE PUBERTY//

The hadith (Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88) says Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 9 years old.
"Consummate" means to complete your marriage with sex .There are no symbols involved.It's written for all to see in black and white.Your hadith has nothing to do with Muhammad and Aisha's sexual relations but the time she was old enough to notice her parents were following Islam.

#Christanity………….?????????
#typical marriage vows where both husband and the wife has to declare their consent.(WHERE IS THE NUMBERS/VERSES/CHAPTER?????????????
WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE ?????????? DON'T SAYS LIE ……..BRING THE VERSES FROM THE BIBLE,DECLARATION HUS/WIFE BEGIN SOME Y'ES AGO,THAT NOT THE LAW OF CHRISTIANITY…..
BUT LOT OF EVIDENCE IS THERE FOR PERMIT MEN FORCED RAPE CHILD/WOMEN &KILLING INFANT/ANIMALS
Deuteronomy 22:28-30 "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
Exodus 21:7-8 "And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her."
They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man……..Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"
According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations."[Ibid., §157, footnote 86, 653.]
Leviticus 20:15 "If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal
Leviticus 20:16 "If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal.[THAT MEANS WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE CHARACTER OF HINDU ,EXISTED PAST CHRISTIANS,WHY THEY ORDERED TO KILL ANIMAL? PLZ ASK MR.POPE,THEN POST THE REPLAY]
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

#You asked for scriptures and I gave you for both Jewism and Christanity…………….

THE SAME LINK FIRST RULE SAYS THAT:
A MAN MAY GIVE HIS DAUGHTER IN BETROTHAL WHEN A
NA'ARAH [EITHER] HIMSELF OR
THROUGH HIS AGENT
>>>>>>>GIRL CONSENT NOT HERE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Talmud Permits Child-Adult Sex
Talmud law permits sexual intercourse between children and adults. This doctrine is contained in a number of Mishnahs. Before we examine them, however, it is necessary that the reader be familiar with the word kethubah.
According to the Soncino Talmud Glossary:
KETHUBAH (Lit., 'a written [document]'); (a) a wife's marriage settlement which she is entitled to recover on her being divorced or on the death of her husband. The minimum settlement for a virgin is two hundred zuz, and for a widow remarrying one hundred zuz; (b) the marriage contract specifying the mutual obligations between husband and wife and containing the amount of the endowment and any other special financial obligations assumed by the husband.
— Babylonian Talmud, Soncino Talmud Glossary

Zuz is a unit of currency. We see, then, that a dollar (or zuz) value is put on virginity.
Now let's look at a Mishnah from Kethuboth 11a:
MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN (7) HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH (8) A LITTLE GIRL, (9) OR WHEN A SMALL BOY (10) HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD (11) — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ] …
— Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11a
Soncino 1961 Edition, page 57

The translator, Rabbi Dr. Samuel Daiches, amplifies the text with footnotes:
A man who was of age.
Lit., 'who came on'.
Less than three years old.
Less than nine years of age.
Lit., 'One who was injured by wood', as a result of which she injured the hymen.
— Rabbi Dr. Daiches

Let's review the above-cited Mishnah: "When a grown-up man has had sexual intercourse with a little girl, or when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman …" It is obvious that sex activity between a grown man and a little girl, and between a grown woman and a little boy, is a part of the woof and the warp of everyday Talmud life; such relationships, in the eyes of the Sages, are unremarkable. There is no prohibition on sexual activity between adults and young children — it is simply regulated. Recall the words of the Very Reverend the Chief Rabbi of the British Empire the late Dr. Joseph Herman Hertz:
Religion in the Talmud attempts to penetrate the whole of human life with the sense of law and right. Nothing human is in its eyes mean or trivial; everything is regulated and sanctified by religion. Religious precept and duty accompany man from his earliest years to the grave and beyond it. They guide his desires and actions at every moment.
— Rabbi Dr. Hertz (38)
100 OF VERSES SAYS /JEW SCHOLARS ADMIT/AGREED/PROMOTE/PRACTICE PEDOPHILE ,WHAT IS THE USE OF U'R ' ONE VERSES' [IT 100% 'BIG FAT LIE FROM THE NEW GENERATION JEW],BEC'S 100 OF VERSES SAYS X=Y ,WHAT IS THE USE 'ONE' X=Z???????? http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/01/pedo…
Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, page 371, footnote 2, appears in Come and Here™ hypertext as Sanhedrin 54b footnote 24, http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_… http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/guido_deim… http://www.john-friend.net/2012/11/major-jewish-p… http://davidduke.com/zio-media-suppress-news-ramp… http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=4006http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_2.htm…

TODAY WORLD ARE DISCUSSING THE PEDOPHILES HISTORY OF JEWISH TALMUD & PEOPLE WHERE R U LIVE??????????

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) >>>>I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty<<<<<<[THAT MEANS SHE WAS MATURED GIRL ,WHEN HER PARENTS ARE [BEGIN]FOLLOWING THE ISLAM] Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us[AFTER PROPHET VISITED] , both in the mornings and evenings.

playing with the dolls & 9 YEAR OLD IS NOT SYMBOLS /EVIDENCE/PROOF OF >>>BEFORE PUBERTY<<<<<<

//"One of Chick's leaflets cites specific verses, or suras, in the Koran. This exemplifies the principle of (1) presenting the Propaganda Man (The Muslim to whom the message is sent) with an image that fascinates him, and (2) backs up the image with objective evidence.

Here is what the Koran says about compulsion in religion.

[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [Chick cites this as a command to kill apostates.]

Here is a great contradiction inside the Quran! I am sure Shabeer can find some text who tries to explain this away, but it will be hard for Muslims to overcome this challenge. And tnkuk may be challenged to confront her "savants" with this problematic contradiction in the Quran, but I don;t think she will dare to do such a thing, not even with her family.

In the above article is also mentioned this challenge to Muslims, CHUCK (Chick is someone else)

//"Chick also points out that Allah is a capricious and cruel entity who could have guided all humans to salvation, but chose instead to condemn some to hell.

[32.13] And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just: I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together."
[14.4] And We did not send any apostle but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
[6.39] And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.
[16.93] And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did."//

//"Ask them few very basic questions and the illusion will be broken."//

Oh, I understand that, really, but This article emphasized that: It is wise/ necessary to try to "separate the followers from the Leaders"!!! In Psywar it is considered unwise to fight in a way that the followers unite with the leaders in response to attacks on them all.

And in this context we observe that in the current circumstances it is indeed hard for Muslims, esp. for tnkuk, but also for Shabeer, to publicly endorse Boko Haram, ISIS, Taliban against Malalah Jusufzai etc. (only SlaveOfProphet endorses them). And let it be clear, those are Islamist organisations. With stated designs, ambitions to conquer the world or at least big parts of it, incl. Spain (Andalusia).

Isn't it better psywar to stimulate Muslims debating here, to state explicitly that they separate from these Islamist organisations + their leaders + all such Islamic leaders?

Or even that debating Muslims here, like the Muslima's in Honor Diaries, like our mayor Aboutaleb in Rotterdam, and Zuhdi Jasser, and Irshad Manji too, declare themselves Democratic and siding with Democratic nations against Islamists and their totalitarian tyrannical ideology?

//"But what I think is necessary to understand is that the underlying principles of Islam should be understood by everybody, all non muslims, I mean. "//

Yes, I agree. In my "sphere" I constantly meet Westerners, and I see or read about them constantly in the media too, who first and foremost want to be fair towards outsiders. And therefore invariably opine that " in all religions there are fanatics" and that "Muslims cannot be different from the rest of us in any significant way" or the like. This is their leading maxim.

But people like me try to point out what Quran-Hadiths-Sira actually SAY and how that influences Muslims. But these "political correct peoples" shut themselves off from any information about Quran-Hadith-Sira while they opine that "the bible too has such texts".

The appalling result can be that in official handbooks writtten and used by professionals of the Health Service it is pointed out that "Honour Killings have nothing to do with Islam".

But that is why the movie "Honor Diaries" from Clarion Project website is so useful; it shows Muslima's against honor killing pointing out what is really motivating honour killing among Muslims.

@Demsci
//CHUCK, can you CHECK this link,//
In a way that is what we all are doing. Psychological warfare. But what I think is necessary to understand is that the underlying principles of Islam should be understood by everybody, all non muslims, I mean. Because it is very easy to deceive people who haven't an iota of understanding what it is. I really find it very amusing that in US and in Europe students aren't taught much of world history and they grow up knowing a lot more about American and European history and far less about the history of the rest of the world. I especially find it difficult to comprehend that while they are taught every bit of injustice perpetuated by, say the Catholic Church, the Islamic invasion of Europe and Asia is hardly ever touched. Another thing I find contrary to logic is how Western countries have opened their doors to refugees from Islamic countries while there own oil rich brothers, the Saudis for example, keep their doors closed.

//What are your thoughts, If you will, on this article? //
Its a nice write up and brings a nice perspective to the 'art' of propaganda.

//But note well, I do not consider tnkuk and Shabeer Islamists//
Ask them few very basic questions and the illusion will be broken. For example is an idol-worshiper innocent? Should she/he be allowed to publicly worship the idols in Muslim land? Should a muslim be allowed to worship in a non-muslim land?

Tch tch, Shabeer,
You asked for scriptures and I gave you for both Jewism and Christanity. You set a challenge and I have met it ON THE BASIS of your conditions. So now shut up and study a little deeper. Rest of what you say about Talmud reflects poorly about your knowledge of Islam since Muhammad, the swine, upheld both Torah and Talmud (and Psalms). So if you cast aspersion on Talmud you are doubting Muhammad himself. Now dig a deep hole for yourself.

@Shabeer
All that you are saying is that if a child starts menstruating at 2 (yes it is possible if she has a condition called Precocious Puberty) you will have no difficulty in entering her. God save our children from such zahil ganwars (uneducated fools).

@Shabeer
//I THINK CHUCK ONE OF THE PRODUCT OF HORSE……….THAT WAY HE HAS NO IDEA ABOUT COMMON SENSE/LOGIC,ETC //
Since you resort to name calling you proved that you are product of a swine. Thats why may be it's meat is prohibited in Islam.

Now to your poor argument:
//FIRST HE SAYS "FIGURE OF SPEECH //
I still say it is figure of speech. I proved that with simple real life examples for you to understand. You couldn't digest that. You asked for authoritative references like Arya Samaj, I showed you for 2 3 verses, you couldn't answer back. I also showed you reference from Aurobindo Ghosh's Secret of The Vedas, you didn't respond to that either. Guess what you DON'T want to see authoritative references. You can check it again: http://alisina.org/blog/2014/06/18/are-non-muslim…

//SECOND UR INDIAN U AGREED THE VERSE//
I never asked you to agree with any verse. Show me. I asked you a simple question, whether you are proud of your Indian ancestry and heritage. You said you don't consider India's heritage as your heritage since you are a Muslim.

//THIRD U R MUSLIM U CAN'T UNDERSTAND SANSKRIT FOURTH U'R TRANSLATION IS WRONG//
Because you don't :-). You often copy paste stuff which you yourself don't know is correct or not. We see that happen many many times. many times you refer to verses which don't even exist. I have personally pointed that out many time. For example, you said Atharva Veda 10.1.30 The Cow is Heaven, the Cow is Earth,. However here is what Atharva Veda 10.1.30 really is: If ye be girt about with clouds of darkness, bound as with a net. We rend and tear all witcheries hence and to their maker send
them back. http://sacred-texts.com/hin/av/av10001.htm
So many of YOUR translations are not to be trusted.

//WHAT CAN I SAYS THIS >>>UTTER FOOLISHNESS<<<<<<<<<<<??//
Yes it is utter foolishness from you.
//Atharva Veda 4.11.1 The Bull supports the wide-spread earth and heaven, the Bull supports the spacious air between them. The Bull supports the sky’s six spacious regions: the universal world hath he pervaded//
Really really shameless Atharva Veda 4.11.3 The Bull is Indra o'er the beasts he watches.
This clearly establishes what is meant by Bull in these 2,3 verses. So the Bull is used as an epitaph here. A figure of speech, which clearly you don't understand. It can also be understood by reading actual sanskrit verse (And Griffith's footnote): AV 4.11.1 starts with Anadwan dadhar prithivimuta .. etc, the epitaph of Bull is especially used in this reference because 'Anadwan' picturises the world as a carriage and this Bull (Indra here) as puller of this carriage. Thats the meaning of 'Anadwan dadhar' (Carried, supported by the Bull), AV 4:11:3 clarifies what is meant by this Bull. Hindi translation here (go to page 118): http://vedpuran.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/athar…

//HE HAS NO CONFIDENCE HIS CLAIM ,//
I have full confidence in my claims. But you don't have any, we saw how you didn't even know what you were refer to. Otherwise you would have returned to the discussion on Q 50:7. YOU FLED!!

//CHANGING BEHAVIOR IS THE SYMPTOMS OF LOSER/COWARDS //
And we saw that from you too.

Atharva Veda 4.11.1 The Bull supports the wide-spread earth and heaven, the Bull supports the spacious air between them. The Bull supports the sky’s six spacious regions: the universal world hath he pervaded.

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE VERSES……………

FIRST HE SAYS "FIGURE OF SPEECH ,SECOND UR INDIAN U AGREED THE VERSES, THIRD U R MUSLIM U CAN'T UNDERSTAND SANSKRIT,FOURTH U'R TRANSLATION IS WRONG …………………WHAT CAN I SAYS THIS >>>UTTER FOOLISHNESS<<<<<<<<<<<??????????

HE HAS NO CONFIDENCE HIS CLAIM ,CHANGING BEHAVIOR IS THE SYMPTOMS OF LOSER/COWARDS ………..

VEDA 200% WRONG SCRIPTURE I PROVED ………….

I THINK HIS PROBLEM NOT MENTAL,IT GENETIC :
HINDU LAW PROMOTE THE MALE HORSES SEX WITH HINDU WOMEN(FOR NO CONFIDENCE HUSBAND)
Yajur Veda 23.19-21
All wife of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband’. After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says: ‘O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception. The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu(priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: “This horse may release semen in me. Then the host, while praying to the horse says: “O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively.

I THINK CHUCK ONE OF THE PRODUCT OF HORSE……….THAT WAY HE HAS NO IDEA ABOUT COMMON SENSE/LOGIC,ETC
BULL & HORSES R WEAKNESS OF HINDU:

”As a buffalo (Indra) desired the lusty female born from himself; the mena of the horse he made into the mother of the cow”- Rig Veda 1.121.2,
" The sun was the chariot with seven horses(MAY BE ONE OF THEM CHUCK FATHER) travel around the earth "(Rig Veda:mandalam 1:50)

I PROVED CHILD MARRIAGE AGAINST ISLAM ,ISLAM AGREED MARRIAGE ONLY WITH GIRL PERMISSION/SHE MUST REACHED HER PUBERTY………….SOME UN EDUCATED PPL DOING SOME ILLEGAL THINGS ISLAM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT,
——————————————————————————–
THE AGE OF PUBERTY
——————————————————————————–

Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes place. This is somewhat meaningless in regards to our specific discussion of Muhammad and 'Aishah, since the hadith literature makes it clear that she had reached puberty. However, in regards to puberty and at what age most girls have their first menstrual cycle, 'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi says:

Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions. Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the book Woman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5 Raciborski, Jaubert, Routh and many others have collected and collated statistics on the subject to which readers are referred. Marie Espino has summarised some of these data as follows: (a) The limit of age for the first appearance of menstruation is between nine and twenty-four in the temperate-zone; (b) The average age varies widely and it ay be accepted as established that the nearer the Equator, the earlier the average age for menstruation.6

Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says: "The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years – even earlier for some and later for others." An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:
"During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body."

Many will readily agree with the information above, but still may harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of 'Aishah and the Prophet was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadeeth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:

"When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse" http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?name=Sections…

JEWISH WOMEN HAS ZERO RIGHTS
Gordon Fee says this "law" refers to an external source, meaning "an oral understanding of Torah such as found in rabbinic Judaism."] Gustavson agrees and points out that the Jewish Oral Law taught the silencing of women and cites the Talmud that states it is "a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men.
18th century scholar, said that it was "forbidden by Jewish tradition for women to speak in the synagogue." Bushnell also comments that the Talmud remanded women to keep silent because according to Rabbi Eliezer "the voice of a woman is filthy nakedness." [Katharine Bushnell, God's Word to Women (Oakland, CA: K. Bushnell, 1930), para.201-202] Bushnell points out that Scripture supports the exact opposite of what verse 34 is claimed to prevent.
Whoever marries his daughter to an am ha-arez is as though he bound and laid her before a lion: just as a lion tears [his prey] and devours it and has no shame, so an am ha-arez strikes [hits/beats] and cohabits and has no shame” (B. Pesahim 49b).
In Babylon, during the post-Talmudic Geonic period, Zemah ben Paltoi, Gaon of Pumbedita (872–890), “calls upon a man to flog his wife if she is guilty of assault.” Rabbi Yehudai b. Nahman (Yehudai Gaon, 757–761) writes that: “…when her husband enters the house, she must rise and cannot sit down until he sits, and she should never raise her voice against her husband. Even if he hits her she has to remain silent, because that is how chaste women behave” (Ozar ha-Ge’onim, Ketubbot 169–170). The ninth-century Gaon of Sura, Sar Shalom b. Boaz (d. c. 859 or 864), distinguishes between an assault on a woman by her husband and an assault on her by a stranger. The Gaon of Sura’s opinion was that the husband’s assault on his wife was less severe, since the husband has authority over his wife (Ozar ha-Ge’onim, Bava Kamma, 62:198).
In Moslem Spain, R. Samuel ha-Nagid (936–1056), was one of the first sages to advise the husband to beat his dominating wife so that she stay in her place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Judaism SYS
women are not generally permitted to serve as witnesses in an Orthodox Beit Din (rabbinical court), although they have recently been permitted to serve as toanot (advocates) in those courts. This limitation has exceptions which have required exploration under rabbinic law as the role of women in society and the obligations of religious groups under external civil law have been subject to increasing recent scrutiny.
testimony of a woman could not be admitted in Rabbinical court, there were no valid witnesses against him, and hence the case for his expulsion had to be thrown out for lack of evidence. In a ruling of importance for Orthodox women's capacity for legal self-protection under Jewish law, Haredi Rabbi Benzion Wosner, writing on behalf of the Shevet Levi Beit Din (Rabbinical court) of Monsey, New York, identified sexual harassment cases as coming under a class of exceptions to the traditional exclusion, under which "even children or women" have not only a right but an obligation to testify, and can be relied upon by a rabbinical court as valid witnesses:

THE FOOLISH CHUCK COME TO DEBATE WITH ME WITH PEDOPHILES HANDBOOK(TALMUD) pedophilia is common practice in the Talmud.

Second century Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai, one of Judaism’s very greatest rabbis and a creator of Kabbalah, sanctioned pedophilia—permitting molestation of baby girls even younger than three! He proclaimed, “A proselyte who is under the age of three years and a day is permitted to marry a priest.” (Yebamoth 60b, p. 402.)
Subsequent rabbis refer to ben Yohai’s endorsement of pedophilia as “halakah,” or binding Jewish law. (Yebamoth 60b, p. 402.)
References to pedophilia abound in the Talmud. They occupy considerable sections of Treatises Kethuboth and Yebamoth and are enthusiastically endorsed by the Talmud’s definitive legal work, Treatise Sanhedrin.
In fact, footnote 5 to Sanhedrin 60b rejects the right of a Talmudic rabbi to disagree with ben Yohai’s endorsement of pedophilia: “How could they [the rabbis], contrary to the opinion of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselyte?” (In Yebamoth 60b, p. 404, Rabbi Zera disagrees that sex with girls under three years and one day should be endorsed as halakah.)
The Pharisees justified child rape by explaining that a boy of nine years was not a “man.” One passage in the Talmud gives permission for a woman who molested her young son to marry a high priest. It concludes, “All agree that the connection of a boy aged nine years and a day is a real connection; whilst that of one less than eight years is not.”(Sanhedrin 69b.)
Because a boy under 9 is sexually immature, he can’t “throw guilt” on the active offender, morally or legally. (Sanhedrin 55a.)
A woman could molest a young boy without questions of morality even being raised: “…the intercourse of a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act.” (Footnote 1 to Kethuboth 11b.)
The Talmud also says, “A male aged nine years and a day who cohabits with his deceased brother’s wife acquires her (as wife).”(Sanhedrin 55b.)
In contrast to Simeon ben Yohai’s dictum that sex with a little girl is permitted under the age of three years, the general teaching of the Talmud is that the rabbi must wait until a day after her third birthday. She could be taken in marriage simply by the act of rape.
R. Joseph said: A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. (Sanh. 55b)
A girl who is three years of age and one day may be betrothed by cohabitation. . . .(Yeb. 57b)
A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabited with her she becomes his. (Sanh. 69a, 69b, also discussed in Yeb. 60b)
It was taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest, for it is said, But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves, and Phineas (who was priest, the footnote says) surely was with them. (Yeb. 60b)
[The Talmud says such three year and a day old girls are] . . . fit for cohabitation. . . But all women children, that have not known man by lying with him, it must be concluded that Scripture speaks of one who is fit for cohabitation. (Footnote to Yeb. 60b)
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.
Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

And Chuck, Tnkuk has repeatedly said and assumed that "people on this website" know "nothing" or far too little about Islam. I think tnkuk should realise that is very possible that many infidels, like you, but also many ex-Muslims, who write/ post here, know very much about Quran-Hadith-Sira.

"Infidel" Islam-experts who could well be a match for the "savants" who taught her Islam.

O, sure, tnkuk can assert that Islam is difficult to understand, that it is necessary to take a leap of faith first, and that she "feels" Islam is right, that even 1 % of what she knows is difficult to explain and understand.

But that then would also be the case for millions upon millions of superfluous Muslims. And perhaps we, we and some Muslims, can all set the more modest goals to at least point out to each other where we disagree about Islam, and Democracy, and Science + get more clarity about that. We don't have to convert each other.

Interesting post, thanks, Chuck. I highlight this:
//"What will a reasonable person make out of such a response? I think one or more of the following:
1. She is assuming that we aren't aware of any such evidence.
2. She herself doesn't/didn't know that such an evidence exist.
3. She knows but she was/is lying."//

You are right! Tnkuk may be driven by an overwhelming desire to defend Islam, which to her then is more important than, well, searching for the highest truth, despite everything, speaking the truth, overcoming her own indoctrination + prejudice.

Is this the case with us too? I think and hope we can admit it when we are wrong or when the nations, lifeconvictions, persons we love are wrong, and indeed, they are simply not perfect, like democracy and the Western nations are FAR from perfect. Yet we defend them, because we think they are the best we have. But we don;t lie for them, I hope.

Can tnkuk ALSO admit that her religion, which she loves, which gives her much and promises her heaven, which is the religion of her loved ones, community, who "promise abandonement if she apostasizes, can be imperfect? And moreover tyrannically interpreted, and then suppressing + crowding out competing religions and love-convictions?

Whereas we democratic people of all sorts of religions, lifeconvictions are in favor of tolerance + co-existence. And we are in favor of letting next generations have good informed choice about their own preferred religion/ lifeconviction.

But if many Muslims, due to their interpretation of Quran-Sira-Hadiths, will not be tolerant to other life-conviction on their territory, and in their families + communities, invoking the (death)penalty for apostasy, how should tolerant people around the world react to the intolerant part of the Muslims?

Can there be TOLERANT Muslims who will tolerate just and equal chances for all religions/ lifestyles to be taught to future generations, for them to have real informed choice? Who thus will side with us against the intolerants?

Or will there be primarily these "egoistic" Muslims, primarily intent on protecting and promoting their beloved Islam and their beloved Mohammed? Even at the cost of lying for Islam?

// Q(33:52) << Not lawful to you, [O Muhammad], are [any additional] women after [this], nor [is it] for you to exchange them for [other] wives, even if their beauty were to please you, except what your right hand possesses. And ever is Allah , over all things, an Observer. >> so he can't marry more than Aisha//
But he in fact married more than Aisha:-). You know that already!! Now this verse reveals many things:
1. Allah somehow knew Muhammad could be affected by beauty in other women, hence the phrase "even if their beauty were to please you".
2. This is actually a self congratulating verse by Muhammad. Kathir explains that the purpose of this Ayah was revealed as a reward to the wives of the Prophet expressing Allah's pleasure with them for their excellent decision in choosing Allah and His Messenger. So this wasn't a restriction on Muhamamd but a favour done to his wives!!!
3. Ibn Kathir further explains Imam Ahmad recorded that `A'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said: "The Messenger of Allah did not die until Allah permitted (marriage to other) women for him.''
4. 33:50 abbrogates 33:52 (Ask your Imams). This is also confirmed by Ibn Kathir. He states (It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this,) means, `after the description We have given of the women who are lawful for you, those to whom you have given their dowery, those whom your right hand possesses, and daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, maternal uncles and aunts, and those who offer themselves to you in marriage — other kinds of women are not lawful for you.' This view was narrated from Ubayy bin Ka`b, from Mujahid in one report which was transmitted from him, and others. At-Tirmidhi recorded that Ibn `Abbas said: "The Messenger of Allah was forbidden to marry certain kinds of women apart from believing women who had migrated with him, in the Ayah. So it is not even a restriction, but a clever choice of words to please his wives while keeping his path clear to marry as often and as many by way of 33:50!! Clever, very clever.

//And i don't think that if muhammed was the maker of Quran//
Well as a believer you won't, but that obligation doesn't apply on me. I see it as a work of Muhammad and possibly some close associates.

@TnKuK
//me personnally i don't have confidence in ibn saad //
My job isn't to prove Ibn Sa'd right or wrong. He is considered one of the foremost biographers by every muslim worth her/his salt. If you have a doubt on Ibn Sa'd I can really do very little. Other historians like Ibn al-Qayyim have also said the same. These are respected figures with in the annals of Islam and you really need very solid reason to doubt it. Remember Ibn Sa'd is a biographer so he makes statements with historical value not just an opinion maker like ordinary Imams. In fact if Ibn Sa'd can be doubted then so can be Muslim or Bhukhari.
Secondly in raising this doubt you actually show your lack of knowledge of Islamic historical figures. You say that Sa'd didn't refer to Sahi Bukhari or Sahi Muslim. Well, just for your knowledge Sa'd was born 26 years before Bukhari and when he died Bukhari was a young man of 35 still collecting material for his 'al-Jami' as-Sahih'. Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj was Bukhari's student so his collection must be dated even later. Don't you think there is a slight technical glitch for Ibn Sa'd to refer to Sahi Bukhari or Sahi Muslim considering these were yet to be compiled and published even a decade after the poor man's death?

You can off course bring a valid counter-point by actually referring to some Sahi hadiths which describe the marriage of Maria the Copt with Muhammad. Do you have any such reference? If not then Ibn Sa'd and his account stands the test of veracity (And he isn't alone).

//Quran didn't let others marry his wives because in paradise the women the the wife of her last husband okay and they all wanted to be the waves of Muhammed//
That is just your opinion and nothing more. And I will tell you why this theory is silly. Suppose you love your husband and want to have his company in paradise. Will you, on your own marry, another person? No, right? Does this require an injunction from Quran to prohibit every other person? How logical is that? If the wives all loved Muhammad and wanted to share his company in Islamic paradise they simply wouldn't have married anybody else. The Quranic verse actually raises the suspicion that Muhammad knew one or more of his wives would happily marry another person, so he does what he does best, invokes his Allah and adds a prohibition.
The simplest (and therefore best) explanation is that Muhammad was just jealous and couldn't think of his wives being happy and enjoying with other persons after his death.

// it was a problem the prophet said to his wives someting that he told them to not tell the other wife //
Such a grave matter that made the wives conspire against him with such a result that Muhammad took an oath not to have sex with them for a month or so. But off-course it was too much for that womanizer. Allah had to intervene:-). This grave matter couldn't possibly be for honey only especially when tasting honey has many meanings, some with sexual connotations. And here is the proof, http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…The Prophet did not go to his wives because of the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him (for his oath that he would not approach Maria).. So it was this oath that he made (approaching Mariya). She was pleaded by Muhammad to keep it a secret (that he had given in to temptation and bedded Mariya). But she went ahead and shared it with Aisha. This tells us why the wives would be so peeved as to conspire against Muhammad. And why Muhammad will shamefully take an oath not to approach any of them. This explains 66:1 to 5 perfectly. Poor guy, the ultimate sex-maniac that he was, couldn't starve himself and had Allah 'reveal' these verses:-).

I know you didn't, you talked about something that both Chuck and you know a lot about; the marriage of Mohammed and Aisha.

But I am more focused on the controversy of Islam, or some interpretations of parts of it, wether it is compatible with or contradicting and also a threat and a blockade to democratic laws and values and human rights.

//"and the democracy laws who have a few 4 or 5 laws who don't agree with Quran so i'm democratic but not fully only in this4 or 5 laws"// Mmmm, maybe in future we can work something out here. And you become a "democratic Muslima" and side together with your democratic brothers/ sisters and against all totalitarian, patriarchal enemies of democracy and human (women) rights. Which is all I really wish (not demand) from you.

And again, if you disagree with Nonie Darwish it might well mean that you have a different interpretation of Islam from the likes of Boko Haram, Iranian Mullahs, Taliban, ISIS etc. And the cause might well be:

A. The Islamic holy texts are multi-interpretable (meaning the interpretation of your "savants" is among several logical and equally valid interpretations of same immutable (so they can't be improved upon) Islamic Holy texts). and

B. Lack of central authority inside Islam which can ordain right interpretation and right tenets and throw out of the Ummah persistent deviators from that interpretation and those tenets.

And you shouldn't blame Nonie Darwish, Ali Sina, Robert Spencer etc for merely reporting and commenting on interpretations of Islamic holy texts proclaimed by many many Muslims THEMSELVES, leaders and ordinary people alike.

The fault seems to lie with the many different, and un-disciplined interpretations of your holy texts, not with those who protest against anti-democratic anti-human rights interpretations of those texts.

me personnally i don't have confidence in ibn saad because every imam bring Hadiths from Muslim books or Bukhari and Nisa 'i and similar few confident books and ibn saad i didn't see untill no that they bring a hadith from there and Quran didn't let others marry his wives because in paradise the women the the wife of her last husband okay and they all wanted to be the waves of Muhammed so Quran confirmed that and n the verses ( 33:53) it was a problem the prophet said to his wives someting that he told them to not tell the other wife so one of hem i think told her so Quran revelate it and told them that if they stay like this and he divorced them God will give him women on their place better than them so they were sorry and didn't want that

Q(33:52) << Not lawful to you, [O Muhammad], are [any additional] women after [this], nor [is it] for you to exchange them for [other] wives, even if their beauty were to please you, except what your right hand possesses. And ever is Allah , over all things, an Observer. >> so he can't marry more than Aisha okay it's limited if you think that he can have as much as he want and he wanted 3 as what i told you

And i don't think that if muhammed was the maker of Quran he will limit his self so conclution is that Muhammed isn't the maker of Quran ^^"

yes i know but Chuck don't want to stop repeating the same things and you know how much i need time and writing take time so i can't lose time with repeating if he took a new subject it will be more good than staying 10 comment repeating and in every one i loose 25 min and 30 min so it's a wastof time for both of us to repeat every thing in the same subject in the same thing the same points the same evrything so i need time i don't want to spray my time

and i told you that i don't want to run and you know verry well that i have a charged programme but i made a little pause for chuck because you told me about him and you say that he is a expert i didn't wan't to loose the chance and just let it go so i make a pause and i must to re-start as soon as possible it's for that i don't want to repeat in every time the same things and Shabeer is cultured than me in books and such things and it's not like i don't wan't to talk with him but i hate to repeat the same things more than 5 times because it's a wast of time if he changed the subject it will be more beneficial than loosing time

and i'm in a crisis of time it's for that i'm not hard-working in that website i have to choose between two works my study or this website and i think that i will give the preority to my study i'm not an adult like you and chuck or Shabeer so i don't have time like you all i'm in the hard-working part so don't look to my situation from your situation because it's completelly diffirent remember yourself when you were in my condition when you were in the begining of your study

And i'm verry far for children i prefer to give my life to sciance in case of Quran it's more benificial than children

Humm Thank you i think that in Islam it's deffirent because you can't hate Islam but you hate the sinner because he is who interpret islam in the wrong way and be by himself a big sin so if you see here you will understand that you hate Boko Haram more than Islam because they are the sin but you can fix them only with Islam so if you don't use Islam it will be ended you can do nothing so islam isn't the sin in my opinion because it's one thing " religion" but many people there is a failed experiment and a succeful one so we can't count Islam as the sin because it's the reason of fixing people and the sin can't be a good thing in the same time of being bad so Islam isn't the sin the is is the interpretation and the sinner is the application …

But if you don't let people use the sin you will not have sinners so you will protect every thing by a simple thing never let people understanding by themselves and give them the history of verses when you do this there is no sinner and no sin …

For me i choose to be in islam side not with boko./….etc and the democracy laws who have a few 4 or 5 laws who don't agree with Quran so i'm democratic but not fully only in this4 or 5 laws i'm with Quran i hope that you will understand me

In the reallity i'm not a fan of Mr,Chuck and when i tallked with him i was waiting more from him but i didn't find a lot so it's nrml not a huge thing and we didn't talk about democracy until now .!

@Demsci
//Chuck at times is very harsh about the prophet and lifestyle that you love//
Yes I do at times. But I generally don't start a thread attacking anybody, I try my best to use logic and reason followed by generally authentic references. Sometimes I find that the argument is plain and simple yet people obfuscate matter bringing loads of superfluous opinions without bringing any material backing it. Consider this thread, when @Grace pointed out that the 50 year old Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6. @TnKuK's first response was "If you have a minde can you please tell me were did you heard that he had sex with a 9 years old ?? did she said that ? or you were with them ?? and why she didn't had Babies 9 years or 15 years old ?"
What will a reasonable person make out of such a response? I think one or more of the following:
1. She is assuming that we aren't aware of any such evidence.
2. She herself doesn't/didn't know that such an evidence exist.
3. She knows but she was/is lying.
In the immediate next response, when @Grace brings the evidence, she says that she was aware of the hadith!! Then why make the drama in the first place.

Consider again the old discussion I was having with @Shabeer, few weeks back about his questioning certain verses in the Vedas saying 'The Bull supporting the Earth' or 'The ear of Earth' and I showed him 5, 6 examples of very common use of allegories in ordinary conversations. And what did he respond? Absolutely Nothing!!! I mean, any honest person will acknowledge at least the examples (Calling somebody a donkey doesn't imply the subject automatically grows 4 leg, or when somebody says your fame is spread in all corners of the Earth she isn't making a statement about the geographical features of Earth etc). I really despise this throw the mud and escape attitude.

Sometimes it a little 'shaking up' is required and I use harsh words or example only within that context. If I cast my aspersions on @Shabeer's linguistic abilities I show the reasons backing it or if I call Muhammad debauch I support it with some argument. The other person is free to prove my argument wrong by giving authentic references in support or counter-argue with reasons. But often I find that people retort back with meaningless rabbles.

@cchuckc
/What more, he was so jealous that he prohibited anybody to marry his widowed wives by issuing a Koranic injunction (Q 33:53)./
He was jealous as well AFRAID OF– These woman would have striped him entirely during intimate sessions with their new hubby's. And i promise–in that case Islam would not have survived till this date :p

@TnKuK
// No no he married by his want 3 women//
:-). I can understand him marrying after Khadija was dead, but if he 'wanted' a second woman after Aisha then it means that he did have a lust for women that Aisha couldn't satisfy. Second you either don't know the Islamic history or obfuscating matters. For example it was Muhammad who pursued Rayhana bint Zayd, Ibn Ishaq reports that she declined and died as his concubine. According to Ibn Sa'd she did marry Muhammad eventually but was first captured as slave (in other words she didn't have much of a choice either way). Another example is Zaynab bint Jash who he married after his one foster son divorced her (possibly from pressure by both Zaynab herself and Muhammad). This marriage was considered, rightly, incestuous even by the standards of those days. Muhammad was forced to utter Quranic verses that allowed him to marry as many times as he desired despite his own injunction that a man shouldn't have more than 4 wives. Yet another example is Juwayriyya bint al-Harith, she fell to Thabit bin Qays, asked Muhammad to release her, her father even arranged for her ransom and asked her to marry him (which again means that Juwayriyya hardly any escape route). So another marriage initiated by Muhammad himself. Ordinarily such a person qualifies to be called a debauch. If he had noble intentions he definitely had various other means to 'help' these women. But no, not Muhammad.

What more, he was so jealous that he prohibited anybody to marry his widowed wives by issuing a Koranic injunction (Q 33:53).

//you will finde 3 : Khadidja Aisha and Maria //
According most Islamic scholars, for example Ibn Sa'd, Maria was just a concubine. In fact you can't prove that Muhammad had married Maria based on any authentic source (say a Shahi Hadith). There is a story about Muhammad asking Hafsa to leave for some errand, give into temptation and then bedded Maria. You should really go and check the revelation circumstances of Q 66:5.

And tnkuk, do you allow me to make another distinction among humans?
That of the serious and the more carefree people? The "carefree" people mostly live superfluous lives, chasing mostly superfluous ordinary goals and do not engage (much) in deep, serious discussions.

But I consider you a serious person. And I say to you that THAT is what you have in common with me and also Chuck, and perhaps even Shabeer and SlaveOfProphet and other Muslims, discussing here.

Oh, I know, Chuck at times is very harsh about the prophet and lifestyle that you love. And to you personally at times when you defend them. But you can do the same to him. And freedom of speech allows this and it does have it's purpose.

But in my opinion Chuck also prescribes to the vision that: "We hate the sin, but we love the sinner". meaning in the context of this website: "Yes, we do hate or oppose Islam (because of the bad interpretations and practice it causes in our opinion) but we still appreciate the Muslims as individual humans.

Wow, a man from far-away-India gives me a great compliment/ recognition! I am very well pleased with it! Thank you very much and I am so glad to be ally to you and chuck and others! In my opinion and experience Darwinists and Buddhists and Hindu's well can and should be good democratic allies! And of course I for one would embrace truly democratic Christians and Muslims also. But with them I of course still disagree about some scientific and historic issues (more than with Buddhists and Hindus, but that's just me).

ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE LAW A MAN SEX WITH ALL CHRISTIAN WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD( FROM NEW BORN BABY TO 100 Y'RS OLD WOMEN ) >>>ITS OK ACCORDING TO THE LAW//
We've been through this.There are no christians in the OT.Not even one christian raped a child in the bible.
=====
i am already proved aisha(r) a matured girl passed puberty………Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465//
This hadith has nothing to do with aisha's sexual relationship with Muhammad.It only mentions when she finally realized her parents were muslim.Muhammad had sex with her before this realization

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Muslim 8:3309
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine.

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/engl…
Make (a marriage or relationship) complete by having sexual intercourse

======
You also said:MOST OF NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE ALLOWED CHILD BRIDE//
No it's not,even according to your own link,muslims have the highest child marriage rates even in non-muslim countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Bangl…Child marriage rates in Bangladesh are amongst the highest in the world.[12] Every 2 out of 3 marriages involve child marriages

They're following the sunnah of Muhammad.Your prophet was 54 when he had sex with a little girl of 9 years old.

Thanks, nice to see your response. I know some Islamic forums but I didn't invite you there because of strict rulings they may ban us over little things. On facebook it's not too open when we discuss in the message box privately. I just want to ask a few questions. Let me know what do you like. Where would you like to discuss? Regards!

I don't believe God is sadistic to want to put people in hell when they don't choose the right path. With all respect, I believe we are here to make mistakes and learn from it. Just because someone chooses to enjoy life doesn't necessarily mean they are bad people who are going to hell. I don't know where I'll end up once I die, but I also wouldn't want someone to end up in hell when they don't share the same beliefs as I. I don't agree with Islam but I sure wish Muslims can live in peace with the westerners. I wouldn't wish any harm on Muslims, Christians, Hindus, or any other people from different faith. Have a nice day 🙂

Hello Peaceful Islam. Thank you for your invitation. I feel honoured. But on facebook I feel it is too open in a way. And on gmail is tempting, but I feel it comes too near to my privacy.

It did cross my mind that it was a pity that you did not offer me to discuss with you: An Islamic website, where I would not be thrown out, on some pretext,as soon as I said something considered too "anti-Islam" where I could discuss with you.

Tnkuk, as long as you stick to your facts and arguments you are doing great, for me.

I don;t know if you understand me, but say that there are 4 kinds of people (and of course more kinds, but that we only focus on those 4); And those are: Democratic non-Muslims (that's us), Totalitarian non-Muslims (like Nazi's, fascists, Communists), and both Democratic Muslims and Totalitarian Muslims.

I know people doubt it, from our side too, but there are Democratic Muslims, and our mayor in Rotterdam, Ahmed Aboutaleb, definitely is a Democratic Muslim! So is Qanta Ahmed, a Muslima who in the movie Honor Diaries, fights against honor killing and for women's rights in Islamic countries. And I know many Turkish Muslims who are democratic.

Now which side would you choose in a world war, in a big confrontation? Those womenoppressors of Boko Haram, government of Iran, who force women to wear the veil, and violates their rights, the Taliban, who refuse education to girls, blow up schools for girls, the ISIS, forcing girls to marry their fighters? All these, and many more, are totalitarian Muslims, not much different from Nazi's.

Or will you choose to side with your fellow democratic people. Remember, you are an outspoken and thinking girl, but totalitarian patriarchal Muslim men WOULD NOT TOLERATE your tone, manner of speaking, while we, your fellow democrats hopefully, are glad you think and talk!

And finally, you meet an opponent who can make you better, Chuck. You must have noticed that he knows very much and that he reasons very logical, yet concise, isn't that admirable for young people? Even if you don;t agree, would it not be great if you could argue like him?

Or will you rather want to be right always and defending your prophet and savants than learning from him?

Isn't it much better that we democratic people learn from each other, making each other wiser, admitting the strong arguments the other side makes? What will you do? Vanish or admit lack of capacity or lack of interest or will you argue further in this most important discussion, with your valuable insights?

//" look i will re-say it for the last time please don't talk because i know what you will say in your reply thankyou but i know what you will say so please don't reply say Goodbye it's more good than your re-play song seriouslly please"//

Tnkuk(ami-sama) I have followed the discussion between you and Chuck and it was most interesting. and I like to give a lot of responses to what you wrote.

First of all, I am much different from Chuck, but I am wholly on his side and I admire him very much. And for you to talk like; do not respond to me please,

well, Chuck never says: don't respond to me anymore, he never runs, but you saying this; that is just you making excuses and running and vanishing again, like a lazy coward, unable to find good arguments against a strong opponent.

I so like to put the conversation between you two in perspective:

I so hope you understand that Islam has competitors, other religions, Darwinism, and also political competitors, like democratic governing system. And Islam has competitors in explaining and theorizing about how the natural world came about and works.

And the competitors of Islam have a right to dispute Islam and compare Islam with their own preferred relgions, lifestyles, governing systems. Because the world and mankind do not belong only to Islam and Muslims

and all competitors for religions and politics and explaining history and the world deserve the right to influence future generations in equal measure.

And Ali Sina noticed how utterly tyrannical some Islamic leaders and people had been and still are and how they had oppressed competitor-opposition and how many Islamic leaders and people are still intent on conquering the world and subduing all other thinkers.

So Ali Sina and we here, and Chuck foremost fight for freedom and democracy and they want to dispute Islam and the claim that Mohammed was a messenger of God,

because future generations must be able to compare all religions,governing systems, explaining theories and nowhere must Islam be allowed to suppress free speech.

But on Islamic websites, how long do you think they will tolerate people like Chuck? They will throw him out very soon. But you, tnkuk, and Shabeer, are allowed to say ALL you want to say on this website. So we need you here, tnkuk!

And I am glad you are here, and you are better than Shabeer, but you have to try to see what our real motivation is. and it is NOT JUST HATE,

it is because our most important values and ambitions are blockaded by Islam, which competes with OUR CONVICTIONS.

And there is progress I think,because here you are, you actually do discuss Islam with us, something your forbears and parents very probably never did. And that's great, and we hope your children will discuss even further with us. To reach some agreement to live democratically together on this planet.

But don'r RUN AWAY, using LAME EXCUSES. by saying to Chuck: do not respond to me anymore!

aah thank you i have my own experiance and proof in Islam and i'm happy to belong to Islam it's a honor

No no he married by his want 3 women and the rest have their own stories okay he didn't marry them because he wanted so because there is a story for every one okay and they accepted and in the Quran they were used to choose between they stay with him or if they would to divorce him and every one of them choosed him okay and this 4 wives it's Quran who said so okay because people if Quran didn't make a limit people will marry 500 one or i don't know okay so there is a limit of wives you can't have 5 okay and Muhammed when you count the wives that he wanted you will finde 3 : Khadidja Aisha and Maria okay the rest have their own stories check them and Goodbye

@Shabeer
//HERE >>>>>ONE CHALLENGE <<<<<IS THERE ,IS ANY RELIGION ON EARTH AGREED THESES TWO CONDITION FOR THE MARRIAGE OF GIRL? //
You make these challenges because you are simply an uneducated person when it comes to religions (possibly including Islam).

1. Here is the Jewish view: http://halakhah.com/pdf/nashim/Kiddushin.pdf
Talmud, Kiddushin 2a-b:
I might have thought, even against her will, hence It is stated ‘A WOMAN IS ACQUIRED,’ implying only with her consent, but not without.

Talmud – Kiddushin 41a
A MAN MAY GIVE HIS DAUGHTER IN BETROTHAL WHEN A NA'ARAH. Only when a Na'arah, but not when a minor: this supports Rab. For Rab Judah said in Rab's name: One may not give his daughter in betrothal when a minor, [but must wait] until she grows up and says: ‘I want So-and-so’.

So the primary sources of Jewism tells that a woman mustn't be a minor when betrothed (betrothal happens before marriage, sometimes years before) and marriage has to be done with consent.

2. Have you ever seen a Christian marriage? In it there are typical marriage vows where both husband and the wife has to declare their consent. For example in a Roman Catholic wedding, the priest will declare after the end of the vows: "You have declared your consent before the Church. May the Lord in his goodness strengthen your consent and fill you both with his blessings. What God has joined, men must not divide. Amen." It is so common that you might have seen it in movies.

As far as age of marriage is concerned early Christian followed the Jewish practice that stipulate a minimum age of 12 for girls and 13 for boys. I have already given the reference from Talmud above. Note that by 12 a girl is almost definitely in her puberty (On an average menses start around 11 and menarche is attained between 12-13, full puberty between 14 and 15). And this is confirmed by the Christian Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm
The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (unless natural puberty supplies the want of years). Marriages void because of the absence of legal or natural puberty are held as sponsalia, inducing thereby impediment of "public decorum".
The point to note here is that both legal and natural puberty are required which means even if the girl has attained puberty before 12 the marriage can be voided.

But it is only in Islam that a child's innocent and meek silence is considered consent and people are allowed to bring in false witness to acquire the consent of their slave girls (You know the hadith).

@TnKuK
There is absolutely no reason why you will follow logic:-). You have simply decided to be a blind follower and avoid any amount of reasoning. All your excuses stand exposed.
All that you have are hollow talks. But since I always give proofs, here is the proof for love for women: This person married 11 or 12 times and kept concubines including Maria the Copt while he himself disallowed other muslims from not having more than 4 wives and in fact stopped Ali from marrying a second time.

You seam to be a person that will never understand and love re-play songs and say the same things every time in every comment someone told me that Cchuck is our pro and you have to talk with him and when i see you name here i thought that you were the most pro member of this sitweb but you are nothing from this it was only my imagination now i really feel how much Prophets sufferd from people really they used to have a huge patience look i will re-say it for the last time please don't talk because i know what you will say in your reply thankyou but i know what you will say so please don't reply say Goodbye it's more good than your re-play song seriouslly please !

I told you that people before 1400 years haven't your " governments of developed and most developing countrie" to choose an age to marry okay so don't think that they were like us in lifestyle okay it was diffirent there was no America no human rights no gouvernement no evolution of science concernant the woman okay " she have menses she could enter" this is their resonement in that time

haha you are saying this by yourself he waited her we don't say that she had full puberty but she had menses and there is no sahih hadith that show Muhammed as lover of women okay there is NOT if he love someone he will love his wives okay and he don't care about others in this subject okay

pfff you have no proof he ddn't say you are too old for my daughter or she is young okay he ignored and it's not a refusing and maybe his daughter didn't want to marry them her opinion is the most important okay because if she didn't want there is no marriaage

You proved that he was ill yes but i was waiting a Chrinic desease okay it's not like a headache =_=" it's nrml thing

pfpf pf pf pf he didn't die because of a headache =_=" you talk about Muslim foolishness and you are the foolest it's not logical okay he could choose and a headache don't kill a person only if it's a ancer who will make you screaming while craying from pain okay not a simple headache mayebe with a fever i don't know so we all get ill but we don't die when we have a headache okay

No if islam was like your imagination i have long time converted but because it's not like your imagination we don't care say what you want Islam is our happinesse even if you hated this

No i didn't forget and i didn't say that it was late okay it's because Muhammed requested him + another man he was going to give her to that man but when Muhammed requested him he preferd his friend okay did you understand

It's not like i didn't talk i told you that no one requested him but when she was 18 they requested him Abu bakr and Umar okay and i told you to not spry your daughter for someone that didn't requested you

and meybe Fatimah didn't wanted to marry those too because of that mayebe he didn't say a word okay meybe to not wounded feelings ? we don't know

nO SORRY Imams are verry cultured to becaume imam and have a sitweb and have the permission to be an Imam who say this is tru and this is false okay it's you who don't know they know al-Nisai okay and they know many books that you have never heard okay so don't think that you are a pro because you have no idea about what you are saying they didn't heard a hadith who say that Muhammed didn't marry his daughter because she is young and the one who said that he loves women what you are claiming and the one that he refused okay he didn't say a word don't mean refuse okay and please don't talk i have enought from you i don't like to wast my time in RE-plays songs i told you every one every comment is the reply of every comment because it's the same thing the same sibject we are re-saying thigs and i hate re-say

@ Demsci.
Hi. I know you . We had a conversation one year back. Now I want to have a conversation with you again but not here. This is not fine place to discuss something. It is difficult to find replies. What about facebook or gmail?

1)FIRST WHAT ABOUT ISLAM LAW STRICT COUNTRIES LIKE SAUDI/KUWAIT,ETC………..
THE ABOVE COUNTRIES ARE NOT RULED BY ISLAMIC ,THERE IS NO VALUABLE EVIDENCE IS THERE FOR THEIR CLAIM,
SECOND
MOST OF NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE ALLOWED CHILD BRIDE :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage
The laws in many countries allow child marriages, that is the marriage of girls and boys less than 18 years of age. The minimum legally approved age of marriage is less than 15 in some countries. Such laws are neither limited to developing countries, nor to state religion. In Europe, for example, Catholic canon law sets 14 as the minimum age for the marriage of girls,[52] as does Spain with a legal guardian's permission.[53] In North America, girls can be legally married at age 15 in Mexico. Canada and many states in the USA permit child marriages, with court's permission.

Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[18]
In South Africa the law provides for respecting the marriage practices of traditional marriages, whereby a person might be married as young as 12 for females and 14 for males
According to UNICEF's "State of the World's Children-2009" report, 47% of India's women aged 20–24 were married before the legal age of 18, with 56% marrying before age 18 in rural areas.[72] The report also showed that 40% of the world's child marriages occur in India.[73
A UNICEF discussion paper determined that 79.6 percent of Muslim girls in Nepal, 69.7 percent of girls living in hilly regions irrespective of religion, and 55.7 percent of girls living in other rural areas, are all married before the age of 15
Child marriage is common in Latin America and the Caribbean island nations. About 29% of girls are married before age 18.[122] The child marriage incidence rates varies between the countries, with Dominican Republic, Honduras, Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti and Ecuador reporting some of the highest rates in the Americas.
The child marriage rates were higher for certain ethnic groups and states. In Hispanic groups, for example, 6.6% of all girls in the 15-17 age group were formally married or in an informal union, and 13% of the 15-19 age group were.[127] Over 350,000 babies are born to teenage mothers every year in the United States, and over 50,000 of these are second babies to teen mothers.[128] In 1991, underage teen pregnancies were significantly higher.[129]
The age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)&nbs…
In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.ht…

#compared to Muhammad who was 54 when he slept with a 9 year old girl. …………….

i am already proved aisha(r) a matured girl passed puberty………Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) >>>>I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty<<<<<<. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings.
Islam support /promote marriage with girls after the puberty,read my post once again………….

1- The Bible's Prophets, and even Roman Emperors married girls as young as 8!
According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169.[[3]] Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.

2- Mary got pregnant between the ages of 11 and 14.
Joseph was as old as 99 when he married Mary when she was in the age range above.
Not only was it a custom in the Arab society to Engage/Marry a young girl it was also common in the Jewish society. The case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Mary had already been "BETROTHED" to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was "BETHROED" to Joseph. We Muslims would never call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".
4- The minimum age for marriage in the US-State of Delaware in year 1880 was 7 (seven) [2].
The minimum age for marriage in the US-State of Delaware in year 1880 was 7 [1]:
The following table was taken from http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24
5- According to the Jewish Talmud, Prophet Moses and his followers had sex with girls as young as 3 years old [3]. Yes, THREE years old. You read it right.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.
Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

BIBLE ORDERED PEDOPHILE >>>>3 Y'R OLD GILR<<<<<<
"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man……..Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"
According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/guido_deim…
I AM ASKING ONLY ONE QUESTION IS PUBERTY REQUIRED TO AGE OF MARRIAGE ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN LAW? PLZ BRING IT HERE………

OR

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE LAW A MAN SEX WITH ALL CHRISTIAN WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD( FROM NEW BORN BABY TO 100 Y'RS OLD WOMEN ) >>>ITS OK ACCORDING TO THE LAW<<<<

@TnKuK
//OOOOh this is not science to marry okay it's a life and i don'ttalk about now i'm talking about 1400 years ago okay//
Tch tch. You think 1400 years ago human beings were anatomically any different than now? Did they have four limbs and a snout? You are really proving yourself an ignoramus!!

//did you know that there is no enter without the right age or you thing that people before 1400 years were fool//
No no governments of developed and most developing countries are fool since they have stipulated a minimum age for marriage:-) (Often above 15 for girls)!!

//untill 9 he could ented in 7 or 8 or even 6 why did he wait hah ?//
Because he realized that the organ of a 6 year old is too small to enter into. Simple. He waited just enough to be able to enter her to satisfy his lust (There are Sahi hadiths where Muhammad has claimed that he loves women and fragrance more than anything). This is the most simple explanation. It doesn't require any extra-ordinary claim like Aisha was an abnormal girl who had attained full puberty by the time she was 9 lunar years old. A claim for which you have no proof at all.

//haha i'm talking about the "Chronic Diseases" okay not the headhache//
You said he wasn't ill, I proved that he was ill. Point proven. Neither you nor I know whether he had or didn't have a chronic disorder.

//But Muhammed was in his deth moment used to choose between life and deth he choosed deth//
Defeated and quashed:-). This is the kind of argument which proves how foolish muslims commenting here are. First you said that back then all were healthy and living till 100 but I proved that so wasn't the case Muhammad died at 62 and he was ill when he died.

//Islam is different from those religions okay it's completelly different it have no similarity//
In whatever you wrote I found no difference. But yes Islam is different in proposing some really cruel and stupid injunctions regarding people of other religions especially idol-worshipers and polytheists.

/Muhammed refusing okay you said that he ignored ignoribng don't mean refusing //
So what does ignoring mean then Alampanah? Abu Bakr and Umar were refused Fatimah's hand most probably because both were quite old, Abu Bakr about 50-51, Umar around 44 years old.

//she was married at the age that you claime that she was young okay with Ali so it's not a age problem so stop dancing here and there please//
You forget why her example came into place. You said Abu Bakr had to get his daughter married at 6, because it was getting late and in those days Arabic people used to get their married early. Otherwise, you said, Aisha had to wait for 'the stones to dance' :-). However we find that the greatest Arab, Muhammad actually got his daughter married quite late, she was around 18. Your second point was that it was natural to get your daughter married to your middle aged friend. By refusing Abu Bakr and Umar Muhammad went against this Arabic tradition, discovered by you. Third you said that Fatimah may not have got good suitors so her marriage was late, but then it means that you don't think the first two Caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar were both poor candidates for Fatimah :-).

Whichever way you look, you can't justify Muhammad's entering Aisha when she was a kid of 9. Especially when Muhammad himself behaved in a complete opposite manner to these so called traditions when it came to her beloved daughter Fatimah. Which proves what a bigot and duplicitous character Muhammad was.

//and if there is few that's mean that it's not true okay or they don't have confidence of this Hadiths //
It could also mean that you Imams are not well educated. If they haven't heard of Al Nasa'i, for example, you can ask them to go back to Madarasa or come to me.

OOOOh this is not science to marry okay it's a life and i don'ttalk about now i'm talking about 1400 years ago okay don't glue yourself in the present okay and in yemen or i don't know exactly i have seen this in an article in the newspaper that a girl 8 years marry a man and he killed her okay and another divorced 10 years okay don't tell me about traditions of this time or laws of marriage jump on them i don't want them

did you know that there is no enter without the right age or you thing that people before 1400 years were fool and now they are intelligent it's you who don't have a proof because you have no evidence in this subject okay my evidence is that he waited untill 9 he could ented in 7 or 8 or even 6 why did he wait hah ? ! you are not sure about what you are saying

haha i'm talking about the "Chronic Diseases" okay not the headhache who every one of us had okay and every one can be ill okay a moment and re take his helth But Muhammed was in his deth moment used to choose between life and deth he choosed deth he was saying " Al-RafiiQu Al A'alaa " wich don't mean this life i don't know how we say it in english okay it's not like he dies because of the nrml common similar desease okay so stop kidding yourself please and it's you who don't have a knowledg about Islam it's my religion okay

Haha you have read only the first preface and you didn't understand the rest pff it's nrml Islam is different from those religions okay it's completelly different it have no similarity okay

I was talking about the young age of bla bla bla that you were saying not about the desease and there is NO assured sources that show Muhammed refusing okay you said that he ignored ignoribng don't mean refusing because she were married okaaaaaaaaay ??! she was married at the age that you claime that she was young okay with Ali so it's not a age problem so stop dancing here and there please

and if there is few that's mean that it's not true okay or they don't have confidence of this Hadiths okay and I'm sunni and every Imam is sunni ( who i ask or read their answers )

And we are talking without a utility and i hate loosing time with non assured evidence + your imagination and your conclutions stended by your imagination sorry it's not good to wast time

@TnKuK
//It was always okay so stop kidding you have seen them okay//
Well it never was. And medical science isn't supporting you either. There is a reason why in most advanced and developing countries a minimum age of marriage has been defined, mostly 15 or above, most commonly 18. And no 9 is not a normal age to get laid and become pregnant.

//it's you who have no prove that she didn't atteined puberty puff what a strange man seriously //
Zip up. You don't even know how proves work!! YOU have made the claim that she had already attained puberty, so YOU have to prove that claim. As far as the opposite is concerned I have given three statements against your claim:
1. Girls on average get menses around 11 and attain full puberty around the age of 14. There are rare abnormal cases of girls getting pregnant very early.
2. Those girls who attained very early puberty actually got pregnant which proved their puberty. But Aisha didn't get pregnant so this is a negative testing for her puberty and she fails (or rather your assertion fails), unless, off course, Muhammad was impotent.
3. You haven't given yet a proof that she was already having her menses by 9.

//what a funny one did you know that he died without a desease ?//
Which is a further statement AGAINST your assertion that in 7th century Arabia people were in general healthy and often lived till 100 and hence Muhammad couldn't have been impotent in the later part of his life. The fact is Muhammad lived only till 62 and died of illness. He complained of headache, weakness and pain :-). You may check here Sahih Bukhari 1:11:634: http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadit…
You don't have sufficient knowledge of Islam or Muhammad it seems.

//it's not important the reason the Goal is deth//
I am not talking about the importance of his death or anything but using it as a counter argument against your assertion that in Muhammad's time people were healthy and as a result Muhammad was also healthy and couldn't have been impotent.

//aah i will explain some//
You haven't explained anything that some other religions like, for example, Christianity doesn't say. They all claim to be one true way of attaining the greatest state, Paradise in the case of Christianity, Nirvan in the case of Buddhism etc.

//Sorry Imams never heard about this something from an assured sources your source isn't assured our imams don't have confidence on it//
If your Imams haven't heard of, say Al Nasa'i or his 'as-Sunan as-Sughra' then your Imams are possibly uneducated in Hadith literature. And it is one of the 6 most authentic sources of Sunni Hadiths. You asked for an evidence I gave you three references all from Islamic sources. You didn't say that my proves have to known to your Imams because: 1. I am arguing with you not with them, 2. I don't know the caliber of your Imams, the school they belong to, whether Sunni or Shia etc.
As far as Shahi Muslim and Shahi Bukhari they have very few hadiths centered around Fatima.

yes but she could say it "ow kay" ?! no one of his wives said so and aisha too okay don't tell me your imagination might

it's you who have no prove that she didn't atteined puberty puff what a strange man seriously ._. and stop thinking about your magic evidence of that girl had their menses before 1400 years later than us okay

hahaha what a funny one did you know that he died without a desease ?? he dies because every one of us have his own date to die and it's not important the reason the Goal is deth okay my Grand Mother lived 107 years if you want i will bring you the picter of her rip if you don't believe and she had a cancer from 13 years or i don't know and she was doing every thing by herself cooking housework every thing okay so she died not from the cancer who was with her a long time because the doctor said so and we saw her calling his son and when she did we looked at her and we have seen her deth scene okay and his brother is alive too but younger than her 98 years old and he walk and every thing like a man who have 50 years okay

No they have to ignore you all and work to the Judgment day !

aah i will explain some :

we have a right way and many false ways every one have his own place near the right or far from it or opposit to it and every one of us including you choose one and follow it and you can change ways according to you this 1 Right way is straight but there is some places in his left and right when you ignore them and keep walking to your God straight you will get the level of close to God and you keep wolking until puting your feet on the Paradise okay and this straight way is like staircase and you can't go from one to one without working hard and every stair have it's own beacon ( example ) and when you are in that stair you will see it's own beacon and every stair have a special one diffirent from the others for example the first one is the " Vigilance" and it's like the beggining of the way or the staircase wich is " upset the heart to the attention of the splendor of unsuspecting sleep " and it's to wake up with your heart not with your tranch of meat okay =_= and it's like when you wake up at 3:33 min to pray the "Fajr" some people wake up but re-sleep and this is the 1st case and some wake up but with the enjoyment of sleep but someone wake up but with the enjoyment of pray okay ?! the first one is who wake up with his heart and re die and the second is who wake up but stay loving the wrong way and obey disobey between them he is turning and the thirs is who will never sleep again and he will jump from one level to other without looking behind and every one of theses have it's own beacon and it's verry cute when you can't stay because you have no free time you are busy all the time it's the best thing to have no boredom and there is 100 level that every one have many things inside and it's a long talk that will never end

Sorry Imams never heard about this something from an assured sources your source isn't assured our imams don't have confidence on it bring me from Muslim or Bukharis talk or such verry used from savants sourses okay and ignoring don't mean to refuse okay and he married her young with Ali so stop kidding it's not a young subject

// Your 'prophet' was that person!! //
Ha Ha you know nothing so you can't expect something and you don't know him he wasn't your friend okay

Ah yeas you critic only Islam because it's the only perfect religion between the rest who had been proved that it's false sorry

@TnKuK
//Stop kidding they had nrml kids okay you can see picturs of them//
Don't be stupid. Kids getting pregnant at 8-9 isn't NORMAL. It never was. Thats why they make news item in the first case.

//So now you are denial Aicha that she was laying when she said that 9 years but you believe what she is saying in the same time //
And when did I say she lied? She was entered when she was 9. What I said was that Muhammad might have 'thighed' (mufa’khathat) her even when she was 6 or 7.

//i told you the proof but you don't want to believe he waited her to the right age//
9 never was the right age. You can say at the top of you voice and it will remain the same. In fact the link I gave you earlier clearly says that the age is actually reducing and hence 1400 years back girls on average were attaining puberty even later. If you think Aisha had attained puberty by 6 or 9 YOU have to prove that with evidence. So far you have given no proof.

//aahh and Muhammed was living in a healthy area and eat only healthy and had No deseas okay so jump on you little idea //
Put you little idea to trash. If he was so healthy living in such grand conditions why did he died at 62? You were saying people use to live 100 years then? What you are giving is just another excuse, white lies that can be caught quite easily. Try better excuses next time.

//Haha nothing to understand for you but Muslims have many things to understand //
Like? Escaping from the Islamic hells and fleeing to Western infidel countries?

// it's verry complicated for you even if i will write 1% of the idea//
Go ahead, try:-)

//I know history and there is no prove that he refused okay there is no right source of your evidence//
Sunna al Nasai:
Buraida: Abu Bakr and Umar – RA- asked for Fatimah –RA- hand in marriage, so the Messenger of Allah – Sala Allau Alyhi Wa Salaam- said: “She is young”. So Ali asked her hand in marriage and he gave her to him in marriage”

Don't tell me that Al Nasai was less qualified than you. Here's another

Ali Ibn Muragi reported in his book Kanz al-Umal v.2 p.99, that Anas Ibn Malik said:
"Abu Bakr came to see the Prophet (S). After sitting down he said:
O Messenger of Allah, you surely know of my devotion and long standing service to Islam…'
The Prophet then said: `What is it that you want?'
Abu Bakr then said: `I want you to give me Fatima in marriage.'
When the Prophet heard this, he did not say anything, so Abu Bakr returned to Umar and said:
I have ruined myself and others!!'
Umar said: `What happened?'
Abu Bakr replied: `I asked for Fatima's hand from the Prophet, but he ignored me.'

Ha ha and they talk about Islam Islam have no such things they just hate Muhammed pff and it's a kids game when you try hardly to make them understand they can't because they don't want ,and they know nothingand they claim that they know every thing and they are who decide if Islam is a good religion

Teenage births does not necessarily mean underage sex was the cause.18 or 19 year olds are still considered teens but intercourse is legal.And in most cases the partners are of equal age,compared to Muhammad who was 54 when he slept with a 9 year old girl.

As a non-hindu,I don't see the relevance of quoting hindu scriptures (in or out of context).I don't care what manu or the vedas permit,because I don't see any international hindu terror groups kidnapping school girls and trading them as sex slaves.This phenomenon is exclusively an islamic problem.

POPULAR PEDOPHILES SUPPORTERS:
1)HINDUISM
Manu 9:94. A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.
Vishnu Purana III:10 If he marry,he must select a maiden who is of a third his age,one who has not too much hair,but is not without any,one who is not very black or yellow complexioned and who is not from birth a cripple or deformed…”

Mahabharata XLIV (p.18)A person of thirty years of age should wed a girl of ten years of age called a Nagnika. Or, a person of one and twenty years of age should wed a girl of seven years of age.

Baudhayana:Prasna 4:Adhyaya1
11. Let him give his daughter, while she still goes naked, to a man who has not broken the vow of chastity and who possesses good qualities, or even to one destitute of good qualities; let him not keep (the maiden) in (his house) after she has reached the age of puberty”

Sacred Laws of Arya:Gautama 18:21. A girl should be given in marriage before (she attains the age of) puberty
22.He who neglects it, commits sin
23.Some (declare, that a girl shall be given in marriage) before she wears clothes.

1000 child sex slaves
Mahabharata 1:CCXXII And he of eyes like lotus-petals also gave unto them a thousand damsels well-skilled in assisting at bathing and at drinking, young in years and virgins all before their first-season, well-attired and of excellent complexion, each wearing a hundred pieces of gold around her neck, of skins perfectly polished, decked with every ornament, and well-skilled in every kind of personal service.
ANIMAL SEX:
O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your ***** and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this ***** makes women happy and lively‘."
(Yajur Veda, 23 / 20 – 21)

Father sex with Daughter (adrva veda:navma kandam 10:12)

Brother sex with sister:

" Sister of yemen kamathura welcomes her brother yemen to sex with her "(Rig Veda:mandalam 10:10-12)
"Some wise men value the seed, others the field, and still others the seed and the field. Since sages have been born in female animals by the power of the seed, and were honored and valued, the seed is valued (Manu 10.70–72)"
Veda support to human sex with animal:
" to control the Oxygen(prana vayu) you sex with female goat, to get better speaking technical you sex with male goat, to get better future you sex with bull "(shukla yejurveda 21:60)

Thailand : 40% of prostitutes are child in Thailand
Northern Italy: 40% of prostitution affects minors.
Cambodia: 1/3 of prostitutes are child
India : 1.2 million child prostitutes
Brazil: 1.2 million child prostitutes
United States: Between 244,000 to 325,000 child prostitutes.
China: It is estimated that there are between 200,000 and 500,000 child prostitutes.
Mexico:16,000 children in Mexico were involved in prostitution
Sri Lanka, there are nearly 40,000 child prostitutes
In the Philippines, there are 60,000 to 100,000 prostituted children
In Nepal approximately 30% of them were found to be children.
in Vietnam, and 20,000 of these are children.
in Ukraine, research has shown that between 30 and 40 percent of prostitutes are between 11 and 18 years
in Russia approximately 20 to 25 percent of Moscow's sex workers are minors. Shttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sex_tourism Shttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_of_children Shttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

@TnKuK
prophet marry according to to the permission of allha,allha decide it,not by prophet ,from the history he only like to live with his permission was kdija[r],he has children with her,,,,,,,,,
FOR MARRIAGE GIRL MUST REACH HER PUBERTY LEVEL.
[017:034] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the ''age of full strength''; and fulfill (every) ''engagement'', for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
[004:006] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up.
[024:059] But when the children among you ''come of age'', let them (also) ask for ''permission'', as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does God make clear His Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465
Narrated 'Aisha:
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the wife of the Prophet) >>>>I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty<<<<<<. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings.

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 86 :: Hadith 101
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then >>>>>>>she attains the age of puberty and agrees to marry him <<<<<<<<<<<and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."
Dawud :: Book 11 : Hadith 2091
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice.

Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said:>>>>>>>> The child of adultery is worst of the three. <<<<<<<

Stop kidding they had nrml kids okay you can see picturs of them and don't try to create possibilitty okay it's not you who choose the right age to have kids it's the body clock who choose your favorable okay don't debate the body system because it's more cultered than every one about himself and he know when it's right to have menses okay don't try your imagination that it can have deformation they had nrml babies

So now you are denial Aicha that she was laying when she said that 9 years but you believe what she is saying in the same time Tfoo for this i hate this kind of people who have like a distroyed glases and try to tell me if it's a "O" or it's a "C" sometimes he say" O" and some times he say" C" no sorry buy a new Glases to your mind and come to not believe but believe Aisha pfff and the wonderful is that it's in the same time and what without a proof

i told you the proof but you don't want to believe he waited her to the right age and i told you that if he didn't wait for a reason he could enter at 7 or 8 okay but he waited 9 why after 3 years Hah ?! pff what a strange man you are ù_u i could die while traying to make you inderstand this and i told you about the second conclution it's false because before 1400 years it wasn't our life style and the impotence is due of

/// Middle-age stress and working account for some of the psychological causes of impotence in older men. Physical causes for impotence in older men include:

diabetes
thyroid problems
kidney issues
blood vessel damage
nerve damage
high blood pressure
pelvic trauma
heavy smoking
/// aahh and Muhammed was living in a healthy area and eat only healthy and had No deseas okay so jump on you little idea or as what you are calling it " evidence "

// Off course it is not possible to understand because there is nothing to understand here. //
Haha nothing to understand for you but Muslims have many things to understand okay you are free from this because you can't even if you made a juce with your brain while you are traying to understand because this is things that you can't understand by your similar head it's a thing that you understand with your soul and heart and mind okay it's verry complicated for you even if i will write 1% of the idea it's impossible me too in the begining i was thinking that islam is a small religion but it's the biggest one at a limit that you will never expect okay aah of course only if God want

I know history and there is no prove that he refused okay there is no right source of your evidence if you have from sahih Muslim or Bukhari …etc tell me because i didn't heard about it and i heard that he was silent when they asked him and don't think that a prophet choose by him self there is also his daughter to request okay but when Ali comes she was married so this prove that it wasn't a age problem it was a thing that no one know even Abu-bakr Or Umar okay and i will tell you again Muhammed asked his father okay she wasent like he sprayed his daughter okay he was requested and he accepted and all the familly said yes okay + he was his friend so he have confidence on him

// No, but I surely did hear about a person who killed all the males of a tribe, enslaved the children and held women captive //

Oh really i don't know such a person any way my prophet is far of that horrible person that you talk about because you can't critic him while you don't know him or even meet him so i think thatthat person who you are discribing you have meet and go to see The Bible allows rape, slavery, the sex trade, and murder
see : http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri…
not someone that you don't know even

and i hate to re-say and re-say and re-say don't forget re-say and another re-say with a pinch of re-say and a bonuse of re-say really i hate it ! stop talking about a time that it's not your time 1400 years ago and stop talking about a man that you don't know and stop talking about a girl that is against you with her hasbund and love him and don't talk in her place and she don't want you to protect her thank you but she don't want

And i say enjoy because you are alive and you will die this is a reality that you can't run from and you will try the taste of daying and see the real meaning of LOST TIME and LIFE and can we stop talking about this subject i told you every thing and i want to relax from this re-say song

@TnKuK,
//Look girls who had menses before 10 or after they are the same they haven't a bonus hand//
Girls who have early menses are known to suffer from a condition called Precocious puberty. This can have adverse effect in social behaviour and psychological development of the child.

//he waited her to get the right age he could enter when she were 7 or 8 or even 6 okay //
When will you get it into your dull head that 9 isn't a proper age for a child to be entered into!! By the way, apparently Muhammad use to thigh that child before that. Waited, my foot!!!

//impotent at a early age and for your info there were people that lived 100 years okay//
But Muhammad didn't live beyond 62 🙂 . I just said that you gave evidences of young girls who became pregnant and therefore established that some girls have achieved early puberty. Thereby you wanted to establish that Aisha too attained puberty early. But where is the proof? In those examples the proof was the pregnancy itself, but Aisha didn't become pregnant. The only other conclusion then is that Muhammad was impotent then 🙂

//because of Islam he is the best man ever for things that you will never inderstand//
Off course it is not possible to understand because there is nothing to understand here.

//it's not like you will spray your daughters and it's not like he will go and glue his girl to a man who don't want to take the responsabillity//
You don't know much about Islamic history do you? You said that Aisha was dispensed off by Abu Bakr at 6 because the burden was too heavy for him, he couldn't have waited for "stones to dance", but as soon as I show you Muhammad got his daughter married only 18 you have a different tale to tell 🙂 . By the way both Umar and Abu Bakr (Abu Bakr was 50, Umar was 44 at that time) asked for Fatimah's hand and Muhammad flatly refused. Are you saying that two of your rightly guided caliphs were incapable to take care of Fatimah?

//did you heard about the russian who killed a familly for nothing//
No, but I surely did hear about a person who killed all the males of a tribe, enslaved the children and held women captive.

and like what i said to Ali in the end we will see who will go to hell and we will see in the End we are not here to live in such a place i hate earth because it's horrible;.. mayebe this life is for someone happy and cute and whaaaw my life is wonderful but if you were in Hitler time you will se how much is this life horrible it's just a noisy planet that you will get out of it someday to go to hell or paradise where you are created to live in but there is many people who choose to enjoy their lifes and go to hell after those are the losers walk in your way and will walk in mine and every one will walk in his one and we will see who choosed the right one

Look girls who had menses before 10 or after they are the same they haven't a bonus hand okay they are just like us they are not abnormal they are Nrml it's only that they had their menses before the general age okay they are from a kind that we don't see allways okay it's the only thing they are completely nrml

Eum did you know that he waited her to get the right age he could enter when she were 7 or 8 or even 6 okay

and it's you who claimed that he was impotent and you have no evidence are you traying to convince me that people before 1400 years ago when it was every thing healthy and with a good hygiene to be impotent at a earlly age and for your info there were people that lived 100 years okay with his teeth and with his skin okay it's not like our 100 years without a teeth and without a meat it's like a dead okay

Did you know that girls who had menses before 10 are nrml and they don't have a bonus hand to call them abnorml they are just like us okay don't call them Abnormal because they had their menses before the age that you love and the age who make your false evidence about Muhammed true okay

Eumm do you know what is a tradition it's a thing that is common for people and it's valable for every one any time it's like drinking beer in your contry okay it was also nrml to marry young girl with her father permession and her familly's one

You are talking in the Arabic tradition time and Muhammed is our Islam Guid okay and because of Islam he is the best man ever for things that you will never inderstand it's too complicated for non-Muslims it's the Iman and this is a word that you wil NEVER know only if God want and we can see the true meaning of God okay it's a word that not every one can inderstand and Muhammed was Amazing in this you can't inderstand how much so don't ask me about ARABIC tradition and montality of the past because i wasn't with them and i'm not the creator of this tradition and i haven't the phone num of the creator of the tradition and don't accuse only Muhammed because there were a lot accuse them all or don't accuse them all

Ha ha ha ! did you know that the girl isn't who go to the man and say Hey You ! Marry me please *o* and it's not like you will spray your daughters and it's not like he will go and glue his girl to a man who don't want to take the responsabillity of taking care of a prophet girl or even a girl so they wait someone to request them okay when this one request him he will ask her and she say yes to confirm and it's done it's a big responsabillity to take care of prophet daughter okay and she was waiting for a man and she get one in the end

Ha ha did you heard about the russian who killed a familly for nothing and Whaaaaw 😉 a tasty idea come to his mind wich is to try how look like the Human meat taste and he cooked them and he was happy of his experiance and it was funny for him i saw it in NatGeo from the "Solitary confinement" about the most dangerous i think …. Bla bla bla

See your partners what they are doing and after come and analyze Muslims

No sorry i have a natural minde like all people have and it's you who want to change the menses period okay you want that every girl had her menses 12 years old because you want it so to prove your false evidence what is you problem girls who have menses in an early age are just like us they are nrml they are not abnormal they don't have a glow eyes okay and a noodels hair okay and they do what we do they are completelly nrml so don't change the life train for your wants yes we know that you wanted that every girl have their menses after 12 but it's not true sorry it's your want and this is the life train you can't stop a train to pick up a candy from it's way okay even if you stand up in the train way it will tread you and you will change "nothing" it's you the looser because it run where ever it want and you will try to change it destination but you can't even if you hated where she is going but she is going and you are not the one who guid her puberty before 10 is natural talk as much as you can you will change Nothing because it's not in your hand

And i hate to re say the same words and lose time on it so i hope that you have inderstood what i'm traying to say

@TnKuK
//when girl have menses it's mean that she could have kids …..Bla blabla //
Could have isn't should have or would have. So zip up. Moreover all your evidences show that the child has actually given birth which confirms that she was fertile. But in the case of Aisha this is lacking. She didn't bore a child so we can't even say that she had attained puberty!! Unless off course you additionally claim that Muhammad was impotent then, which is not unlikely.

//And i don't say that Aisha was an abnormal woman//
Off course if you furnish some stray incidents of 6-7 year old kids as evidence then you imply that Aisha was physiologically abnormal. Since it is not normal for kids to be mother so soon. If you don't think Aisha was abnormal then why cite such examples?

//who told you that she wasn't in the right age to get them any way//
Aisha herself. She says that she was 9 when that beast Muhammad entered her. Normal child of 9 do not attain puberty at that age unless you claim that she was abnormal, and in that case YOU have to prove that she was abnormal.

//this tradition of marry of young girls was in the old Arab //
It is less about marrying off young and more about lusting about your friend's 6 year old daughter that is the point. Unfortunately even today young girls are married off, but mostly to young boys not to 50 year olds (except Muslim countries where Mo has set the precedence).

//it was the mentuality of that time 1400 years before okay//
So you think Muhammad also suffered from such a mentality. How can you then claim that he is the best of all men for all time to come? What you are saying is that when it came to his having sex with a child he had the same yardstick as any ordinary Arab of the 7th century?

//it's better to her to get marry in that time it's more happy for her than staying in the house waiting the stones to dance okay//
So why did Muhammad wait for the stones to dance to get Fatima married? After all Fatimah was 18 when she was married off to a young Ali who himself was around 25 then. Apparently Muhammad had a different scale when it came to his own family.

//you will never end Islam even if you killed all Muslims of the earth NEVER//
It is the Muslims who go about killing others.

//don't answer me they only ignore because they have no answer or no thing to say including this website//
Or may be they fear the gibberish that brain dead people like you throw up. Just take this example, you are prepared to believe that Aisha was abnormal and could have attained puberty at 9, but you can't accept the normal fact the Muhammad entered Aisha when she was a child of 9!! A child of 9 was, is and always a child EVEN IF by a freak of nature she has attained puberty. And a daughter of a friend is like your own daughter. Normal people don't get so enamored with kids of their friends!!

Any way menses are menses when girl have menses it's mean that she could have kids …..Bla blabla

And i don't say that Aisha was an abnormal woman but who told you that she wasn't in the right age to get them any way you don't have a proof and i don't have proof but if she didn't get them it will be no consummate okay he waited her

And can you stop imagining your horrible stories this tradition of marry of young girls was in the old Arab not in this time okay ?! it was the mentuality of that time 1400 years before okay don't think that it's valable for that time =______=" and for your Info's the old Arabic girls were like a non need person because she have nothing to do in her father house okay and it's better to her to get marry in that time it's more happy for her than staying in the house waiting the stones to dance okay she is valable until she get their menses when she get them she is expend for her familly she must to do nothing or take care of a man Meybe it was that their look to life and it's not your businesse if Aisha accepted to marry him and her familly and if it was bad or harrible her father will refuse or her familly or her environment okay they will count it a crime but no one said a word including un-Believers and haters of Muhammed and you are coming here to tell me about old Arabe traditions that every arabian used to practise it ? ._. ?! Hah ?

It's not natural for us but it was Nrml for them at that time before 1400 years okay it's a huge diffirence okay don't compare an adult with his first GrandFather that have no smell from more than 1400 years okay

And i know that your problem is Muhammed so you are all looking for things that make his Honor dirty and you didn't get it and you insiste for an invalid evidence that the whole population were doing it Sorry and for your Info's
" This Is Not A TRADITION Of Islam To Marry a Young Girl "

It's a tradition of Arab of that time who touche all ARAB before 1400 years ago Muslims non ones Christians Jews Bla bla bla ….etc and Muhammed never said that young girls are a tradition of islam okay you are going far from a non exesting Base>>>> to an imagined situation okay?! you think that Muhammed is a bad man so you are searching a reasons to prove your imagination idea that your dream is to proove it but when you accuse him and make his honor dirty with a Tradition that every Arabian of that time did it NO i'm sorry here you are not an intellegent one you are just a one who is jealous of him because you think that all what good thing are happening to him HE doasn't worth it because you are arrogant for him you think that he is enought petty to have all this and during 1400 years and respect from Muslims ……. but you will never get it you will never have a reason to make his Honor dirty because Muslims know him and are more specialist in this subject of Tradition in the past not like you you have never learned about old Arab and now Arab it's a huge difference and you will never know the fruite of Islam it's huge than you your minde will never get it only if our ONE God want

And i don't care it's your life you are only making your end looking worst , i live in Islam the best life ever and if you want to say what you want and Bla bla as much as you can i don't care i have my happy life and Islam will stay even if you hated this trust me you will never end Islam even if you killed all Muslims of the earth NEVER so don't loose your time because if you lose your Life in writing to make no thing i prefer for you to go and enjoy with your family because you have only this life to enjoy on it the rest will be no cute at All it will be horrible and you are free do what you want i want to spend my time in useful things not in such things

I really want to talk with you a lot because i think that you are a big supporter of Ali Sina and i have tried many times to talk with people here and it's like i'm talking with walls even in Youtube it's the same every one will take a silence and don't answer me they only ignore because they have no answer or no thing to say including this website and Ali sina i have read his book and it's full of lies and i talked with him and he had no answer okay he just ignored me and in the end we had a conclution i said that he will go to hell and he said that i will go to hell we will meet in the End and see who will go to the hell and it's CLOSED for the END so i have no interrest do what you want every one is responsible of his life do what you want and let us doing what we want every one will paye his price some day !

@TnKuK
//so the menses are the signe of Puberty//
Have you read the article correctly? Menses are signs of ONSET of puberty, not full puberty. It is an abnormality if a child becomes fertile at 10 or less. Are you saying Aisha was an abnormal woman? What is the proof anyway? As far as rest of the world is concerned do you have any data? Most countries do not collect and provide such data, least of all muslim countries. And even if a 5 year old becomes pregnant is it a go ahead for all grown up middle aged adults to go and impregnate 5 year old kids? Pathetic really.

Aha I understand that you think it is natural for your father's middle aged friend to be allowed to cohabit with you when you were 6!! Great showing

You are the only one who give excuse it's the truth even in your Wiki Article there is 10 % of girls only in the U.S and what about all the world the percentage will be high than 10% and it's natural and i gived you names and contry in Wikipedia article of girls that pregnant at the age of 11 and 5 and 10 and etc okay so the menses are the signe of Puberty and becoming able to have kids okay a blinde can see it ! mayebe you didn't see my Replys check them please there is two if you didn't see them and i hope that we will close this window because it's over and it's shining like a sun Bla bla bla about puberty in a young age and pregnant in a young age 11 years and less because i don't like to re-say the things that i have said because it let us loosing time and time is important for me ! ^^

@TnKuK
What you are giving here are just excuses. If anything then modern science tells us that the average age of girls attaining puberty is REDUCING. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menarche#Changes_in_…
This implies in 7th century girls were, on average, attaining puberty even later than now. Second, yes menses are menses and they only indicate the onset of puberty not that the girl is fertile or has attained full puberty.

No there is and there is and now we have evoluations in the body sciences it's not like in the time of old arab he will tell you that it's bla bla and bla bla menses are menses and no she had it in an early age and there is a lot like this she's not the only one

@TnKuK
//No i have a friend that had her Puberty at 10 years old//
What you mean is that you have a friend who started having menses at 10. This is ok. It doesn't mean that she attained full puberty by 10 and become fertile. Generally first 2 years are anovulatory and only in very rare abnormal cases somebody would ovulate in her first menses. Your friend may have completed puberty by around 12 or 13.

Eum of course there is the rapist who want to rape little girls and there is a lot and in every contry it's not like Muhammed he marry her where every thing is permessble okay not like the rapist who rape girls in 5 years old and 9 and 8 and 7 and 6 okay and there is Yes there is one girl who was marrien 8 years and died okay and there is 10 years divorced okay There is in all kinds okay just look for them and you will finde
Ahh and it was her chance because God didn't give the Muslims the right to insult them or even talk with them only if it's something about Muhammed okay if they killed her or something they will go to hell because she is the wife of prophet + she was 17 and 18 she could say something and do what she want but she was a good girl and never get a problem with her Husband okay don't talk about things that it's not of your Bussiness okay

i really don't have time but for you i will let time u_u
So, YOU don't think but my father's friend work as a "Businessman" with rich Saoudian Okay and the Saoudian liked the Mr so he suggested to him to marry his little Daughter ( she was not a kid but she was a little one ) and to stay with him in saoudi Arabia and work togather…Bla bla bla but the Mr Refused because he is married and her wafe will not accept this so …. and if you think that i'm laying Sorry because it's you the one who don't to accept the reality because if it was bad at the last time people of that time will open their mouth okay they could say that this is not Good or i don't know because they used to have a long tongue they were not afraid of him okay they could talk but they didn't say nothing but you are saying something i don't know why !

I said that she was probablly in that age because he waited her 3 years because she was young =_=" and i want you to answer to this : You are the girl or i'm the girl ? to know such things and to have friends "girls " to tell you about puberty ? and such things ?? –__– really ?! and you are saying that i'm laying pfoow and you think that girls have their Puberty from 12 years what a pretty Girl i used to talk with there is from 10 years to 14 years and if you don't want to believe ask your sister or i don't know who !

I know that Abu Bakr was a rich man yes but he was going to marry her girl to a man but when Muhammed asked him he told him that he will pick her up from him Okay so you must in the 1st place accuse the other man and in the second place Muhammed okay ? and the whole Arab of that time Okay ? and you Must to know that you haven't the right to crritic one person with the tradition of a whole arab okay don't mach only him okay when you ask me ask me why does the Arab in the past marry their young girls okay don't ask me about one person it's not like i was with them and i know the situation of Arab of that time okay and i don't know the feeling that you want to know it's like Eummm my kid mixed with my love meybe i don't know ….

Eumm did you know that they used to have village or you think that they were from the stone age ?? 😮 and did you knew that they used to have an invention called " My house is close to your house because we are in the same village " ah ? or you think that she was in a disert where there is no life abondoned alone ? Hah ? ! are you thinking seriously ? –_____–" and she could always run okay no one forced her and she had a father okay and she accepted when he made her engagement and all her familly okay

// Don't lie. I am sure you have never been to any Arabic country.//
Oh really i wonder how i'm from an Arabic contry if i'm laying Eumm good point mayebe you can tell me why you are sure !

// Perhaps Muhammad was impotent by that time. He was already 55 when he entered Aisha. Very possible. // oh really the most reasons of this are our life mode we don't eat natural things and Bla bla bla you know it's a big diffirence between us and 1400 years ago every thing was natural and fresh no artificial things and why did he only get kids from 2 wifew and the others no ?? Hah ?

Euh did you know that this is what Aisha said it's not Sunnah ?? ^-^" it's an information the Sunnah is What Muhammed said did you know ?? 😮 that it was only an information Ha ha really it's not a Muhammed Hdith

//also when he died it can be her chance to tell us the truth //
And had herself killed by the marauding muslims? She wasn't a fool. When Muhammad died, he was the most powerful person in Arabia, and there was an enormous amount of things at stake. Her own father was the heir of this empire, the new Caliph and you think she would have wasted her life like this!! Are you kidding me?

@TnKuK,
// and this tradition is done until now in saoudi arabia okay this friend little girls Okay ?! you can go to saoudi arabia and see with your eyes //
I don't think you had been to Arabia, because there is no such tradition that I am aware of where friends marry off their children to their friends of same age (To their friend's children, Yes, that is quite common).
//so in the place of her father taking care of her he give her to a man who take care of her and give her food + i don't know ask who is married with a little girl//
Don't try to turn the question on its head. I asked you what kind of feelings would you expect your friend to have for your daughter (Assuming you have a male friend and a young daughter).
Secondly Abu Bakr was a rich and respected person. I don't think he was really dying to find a husband who would give food to Aisha. Is that even a qualification for a marriage.

//In a Imam talk he said this and i know girls who had it at this age okay ? i know what i'm talking it was a close person to me//
SO now you are saying that Aisha was an abnormal child. You are plain lying. Except for some abnormal anomalies, girls start menstruating from around 12 and attain full puberty only at about 14. So, no you didn't have any such friend.
//Stop kidding please it was an age diffirence so stop claiming that he had teens okay because it's not funny at all you are mixing between the reality and your mind idea//
Hafsa was 19 when she married Muhammad, juwayriyya bint al-ḥārith was 19 (or 20), Safiyya bint Huyayy was 19, and perhaps his concubine Maria the Copt was also a woman in her teens.

//Yes i have read it and it contain that there is some chinese ones that marry their children when they are verry young//
Pathetic really. This 'very young' doesn't refer to kids or teenagers. The article clearly gives example of such people who have left their home or taken up a job. In addition, sample this: 'Single men and women get pressured during festival time in China'. Note the words 'men' and 'women'. Immediately later we see another example "For those who don't want to compromise with their parents, traveling away from home has become a way". It should be evident to even a kid that these 'young people' mentioned here are really grown up, adult, young men and women, not 6 year old kids.

//Yes i'm saying Look : when you want to talk with a kid and you are an ugly man the kid will run //
That is a far fetched conclusions. In ordinary circumstances this doesn't happen. It takes extra-ordinary courage for a 9 year old to flee home and fend for himself/herself. And when you are a girl, in 7th century Arabia and a desert all around you and nearest town is say 50 miles from your city, it is next to impossible to even think about that. What you are demanding from Aisha is absurd.

//did you think that she will stay if she is scared from him .. =_=" please think well//
Did I say that she was scared of him? Being not scared of something can't be a proper justifcation for a 52 year old to marry a 6 year old daughter of his best friend and then consumamte it when she is 9. It only means that Muhammad was a sexual pervert.

//so why in your minde would he run after a little girl while there is many beautiful girls and other young girls//
Because: 1. He wasn't yet powerful enough to force others. 2. Abu Bakr was a friend, so Aisha was easily available. 3. Abu Bakr was rich and respected, it could be a political move to ensure his subjugation forever.

//No, this friends sistem is valable on saoudi arabia because it's the true arabic contry//
Don't lie. I am sure you have never been to any Arabic country.

//and hy she didn't get babies ?//
Perhaps Muhammad was impotent by that time. He was already 55 when he entered Aisha. Very possible.

//and why you have only this talk which you are using it as a proof without a physical evidence like babies//
Because that's what hadiths are for. They are the best available historical records of what happened then. They are part of the Sunna. Do you think the Ulemas of Islam were fools to have given Sunna (hence the hadiths) such a high standing if these are just 'talks'?

//every one was doing the same don't forget//
Show me another example of a person,a Sahada of Muhammad for example, who entered a girl of 9 or so.
Second remember we are talking about Muhammad, the best of this mankind, not some ordinary Arab. Now if you say that Muhammad was just an ordinary Arab then it is a different matter.

//she didn't say anything about it she was even not mad or something//
She was a child of 6. You expect a child of 6 to say a lot about marriages? I think a 6 year old doesn't even understand what marriage means!!!

Wahaha ! you didn't get it it was an old arab tradition and it was common that men marry young girls and i will re say it again Aisha's father was the best friend of Muhammed okay ?! and this tradition is done until now in saoudi arabia okay this friend little girls Okay ?! you can go to saoudi arabia and see with your eyes

// Just think what kind of feelings should you expect your friend to have for your daughter. //
Eumm i don't know maybe =_=" it's not my problem there is who accept to marry young girls and there is no ! so in the place of her father taking care of her he give her to a man who take care of her and give her food + i don't know ask who is married with a little girl

In a Imam talk he said this and i know girls who had it at this age okay ? i know what i'm talking it was a close person to me …

//He did get a couple of teenagers in his harem. //
Stop kidding please it was an age diffirence so stop claiming that he had teens okay because it's not funny at all you are mixing between the reality and your mind idea

Yes i have read it and it contain that there is some chinese ones that marry their children when they are verry young the the other Bla bla and it have no relation with growing up

//So you are saying that a nine year old might have run away from the house. Very logical indeed. //
Yes i'm saying Look : when you want to talk with a kid and you are an ugly man the kid will run because he is scared ( mayebe he will had bad dreams and will never comeback to that place alone ) but if you are a nice looking man it's completelly diffirent he will talk to you and every thing will be okay and if Aisha was sad and didn't wanted Muhammed and he was scaring her (Ps: Did you know that it exist an invention called ; house of her father or house of her familly ?! ) did you think that she will stay if she is scared from him .. =_=" please think well

No , can you tell me what is the special thing in Aisha ?? she wasn't known of beauty she was known that she is the daughter of Abu-Bakr okay so why in your minde would he run after a little girl while there is many beautiful girls and other young girls =____________________="

No, this friends sistem is valable on saoudi arabia because it's the true arabic contry and the others it's not used in others contry okay and don't compare arab to your old people because arabic people of that time were speciale they used to have many things that show you that they are not like others you can read about arabs in the old time and in your opinion why Aisha loved Muhammed ? and hy she didn't get babies ? and why you have only this talk which you are using it as a proof without a physical evidence like babies or Aisha cried to her father or she tolld someone to help her ? and why she stay with him and she never request for divorce and why you are accusing only Muhammed when you have to accuse the arabic land of that time ?? 😮 (every one was doing the same don't forget ) and why you are in Aisha case but against her in the same time you are saying that she was a girl and it's not fair and she didn't say anything about it she was even not mad or something ( also when he died it can be her chance to tell us the truth but she stay like how she was before + she was always talking about him in a good way ? but she is a Muslim and don't love unbelievers and she is in the case of her Husband and she will never give you attention and you are sad for her ? what a poor people ^__^" whaw ! what a chance you have

and also try to pick up a new proof this one isn't sure because only bikhari who told it and……etc

@TnKuK,
//Abu Bakr is the friend of Muhammed he pucked her from this man to his best friend//
You pervert, any good person only sees a daughter in his friend's daughter, but Muhammad could only lust after that young kid!!

//can you shut up and see that it was a common thing in the old Arab//
Just think what kind of feelings should you expect your friend to have for your daughter.

//if he wanted to enjoy he would get all his wives young okay but he didn't okay he was a good man even if you didn't like it//
He did get a couple of teenagers in his harem.

//did you know that it was common the puberty at this age//
Thats an extra-ordinary claim. Can you provide any evidence that Aisha had attained puberty by 9? In fact how do you know that it was common for Arabian girls to attain puberty so early?

// read this please : ;http://english.cri.cn/7146/2014/02/08/2361s811875.htm //
Did you yourself read that? The article isn't talking about kids or teens but grown ups. It is evident from the following line in the article: "Chinese parents tend to try everything to persuade their daughters and sons to get married. Nothing scares them more than the fact that their children are still single past 30". So here "young" refers to grown ups less than 30, say a 24 year old.

//Aisha wanted this and she didn't Complain or run from his house //
:-). So you are saying that a nine year old might have run away from the house. Very logical indeed.

//the little girls marriage in the past arab was common to marry gils when they get puberty//
It is not so more about marrying a six year old but consummating the marriage with a 9 year old kid that steals the cake. You also have to see that this was a 52 year old middle aged person lusting after the daughter of his own best friend.

//From friends to friend friends marry their gils to their friends as a proof that they are friends//
So now we know why most muslims don't have friends. Because to strengthen the tie one needs to marry one's friends' child. I am sorry but we , the less civilized infidels, think our friends are our brothers/sisters and their children are very much like our own children.

I know this Hadith and my answer is in my latest 2 replyes and don't accuse Muhammed with the arab old life + aisha was going to marry another man in that age but because Abu Bakr is the friend of Muhammed he pucked her from this man to his best friend okay so can you shut up and see that it was a common thing in the old Arab ? it was an exeption because she is the daughter of his best friend + any one can marry a young girl in this time + can you look to others who married young girls and stop making your weak evidence there is a lot of marry young certenely in that time okay and if he wanted to enjoy he would get all his wives young okay but he didn't okay he was a good man even if you didn't like it

it's not terrorisme you are a raciste when they kill you and kick you out of your house you will wach them or you will fight to get bach your rights and to enter the holly place and save it from those ignorant people who control it ??

If you are enought frool you will stay to wach i told you in my other reply about aisha + if Aisha wanted it and didn't talk about it in a mad way and she loved a lot Muhammed what is your problem ? why you don't let people live their lifes ? this is impolite pfff no one asked your opinion we asked aisha's opinion and she was acceptfull and loved Muhammed a lot and you are talking about what you ignorehttp://www.quora.com/Questions-That-Contain-Assum…

Eummm Haha !Sorry i wanted to see if you are talking without a proof just like how does the majority but you have proof ..

So, did you know that it was common the puberty at this age and the girls can marry at this age because if they had their puberty and Aisha at 6 years old she was a kid but at 9 she had it and this mean that she is a woman now and in your minde can you tell me why gils had the puberty in an erlier age ? did you hink that they had it to wait 18 years and marry after ? stop kidding we are created with a body clock when it's the time + people in the past marry their childrens erlier too ( read this please :&nbsp ;http://english.cri.cn/7146/2014/02/08/2361s811875.htm )

and even if the hadith said so but she didn't had Babies or kid's so there is no physical evidence so it stay a little doubt and Bukhari isn't a prophet he can make mistake but we don't care Aisha wanted this and she didn't Complain or run from his house So it rest a big Misterious thing that you must not talk without a Hate of Aisha or a definitive evidence like aisha were craying or i don't know any way don't forget that aisha at 6 years old was going to marry a man and when Muhammed requests his friend about his daughter he tooked her from the other man to his friend and the little girls marriage in the past arab was common to marry gils when they get puberty (it was not like us we wait 20 years and we marry after and some women don't marry because they don't finde or they are too old ) and From friends to friend friends marry their gils to their friends as a proof that they are friends and he give his daughter to the one who will care of her and protect her ….. any way it was the arab montality in that time + no one said that he wanted to have sex with Aisha NO ONE and Aisha loved him a lot he wasn't a bad man

If he wanted what you are claiming he could marry many little girls but he married only one because it was his best friend only this and please don't critic what you ignore and you have no evidence exept a Talk which have no physical evidence

So, how on earth can you blatantly lie to me and the world here that you're ignorant of this act of terrorism committed by your sick pedophile prophet against a 9 years old Aisha in the month of Ramadan?

Let me quote this part of the Hadith to an ignorant muslim like you: //Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet (ﷺ) departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married `Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.//

Your above comment shows that you're just another typical prideful muslim feigning ignorance when facing the truth. The Hadith, according to Sahih al-Burkhari , confirmed the fact that your sick pedophile prophet did consummate the marriage with that 9 years old Aisha.

If you have a minde can you please tell me were did you heard that he had sex with a 9 years old ?? did she said that ? or you were with them ?? and why she didn't had Babies 9 years or 15 years old ? and do you know that he had children only with 2 wifes and the rest NO ? Look if you think that i have time to listen to your Head idea and minde resolution without a proof SORRY i don't have time

But if you have proof that SHE said that and it's a true Talk and Quran say that then i will listen to you but i will not listen to a person who had seen a film a muslim-hater made and come here and discribe it for me sorry i don't have time for this Bla Bla Bla without proofs ….

A 53 years old pedophile prophet having sex with a 9 years old girl is indeed a despicable, beastly and reprehensive conduct and it deserved the strongest condemnation from any sane, compassionate and merciful human being and yet, it's unbelievable and unimaginable that this act of terrorism on this helpless little child was widely acceptable in the eyes of billions of his braindead followers, be it educated or uneducated men or women or medical professionals or even judges, etc. They have totally lost their conscience and knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Hi, Yes but the closest true Meaning is what Savants say because they know the History of Muhammed and in what Time does every Verses come down so they can see the situation of the Verses and what is Mean by it because of that NOT every one can understand Quranic verses in the right way because you have to Study including Me and Majority of Muslims

i don't realise that because it have Many meanings but for a special event not for any one and it's a lesson for us but people who are not cultured about the verses and when does it come down they can't discribe the situation including the True meaning

Yes but the interpretation of Al-Azhar can't be 100% sure because it contain many secrets this verses and it's a delicate process and not every one can understand it even if he was the biggest savant in Humanity because only Allah who know and he make who he want understanding his verses

So Al-Azhar and Savants give us the most closer meaning and God knows the truth but to protect people from the false understanding they do this ….

Islam seeks to repair the individual from the inside not by making a person or someone try to show them the way because we Have Quran as the way and the Prophet as the someone who Guide us but because that people are not Cultured they can't understand in the right way and make reation of the time so they make it wrong and the problem is that they are Happy of what they have done but if they make a deep search and culture themselves they will Get It "Only if Allah want"

No one pay attention to Al Azhar when it's about what you choose Azhar form the savants and the savants are who talk not al Azhar because it's a university not the Islam itself or the central authority because the central authority of Islam is Quran and our Teacher are Muhammed and our savants are who learned from him and let for us books and help us

Women rights in Islam ( the Muslim one as i told you in my second reply about the laws ) they are verry good and men haven't the right to insult her or something because it will be bad for him and the Musliman women haven't problems exept when they have a Muslim with a weak faith so here it's not Good it's because he is more evil when he is far to be Muslim but he let the cover of Islam to not Go to hell in all situation and please don't compare a man made law and a God made laws and don't forget that there is many religion that democracy isn't fair for them and it's not valable for every religion including ISLAMIC laws aren't valable for non ones even if they are False Muslims the Muslim laws are valable only for True Muslims and accepted only for them ….. and Women as i said are not violed really ! and their Happiness are in this religion see womens convert to Islam and what is their opinion it's more helpful for you because they let democracy and go to islam !

+ Islam is a verry Good religion and when you are Muslim you have a whole new life every thing will change&nbsp ;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xhZ00xnHIA Islam isn't a nrml religion i hope from you to go some day ( you will lose nothing) and go to a Mosque and try to act like Muslims and talk with Imam ask him (simple Quastions not political and democracy ones =_=" like how do he feel in islam and what is the thing that made him love Islam and such quastions and act like you are a Muslim but don't lie try to change the subject when they ask you ; and see them how they are from the INSIDE and see what does Islam look like please try it to see by yourself you will loose nothing you are in Darwinisme wich mean that you will loose nothing by traying + Please ! + you can see some stars way does them convert to Islam ……

I hope that we will dely this conversation to another time After your Experiance of Mosque 😉 try to see by your eyes not by Media …

You don't need anything, no book, or whatever to find out if islam is good or evil. As a non-muslim go and live in a muslim country and try practicing your faith in the open. It is that simple. FULLSTOP end of discussion.

//"because i know Many people that have false idea about Islam and i want to make it correct"//

Hello Tnkuk. Yes, you realise that many people, both Muslims and non-Muslims have, well, different ideas about Islam than you have and the "savants" who teach you Islam.

But what you don't seem to realise:
– It is in the nature of Islamic holy texts themselves to be differently understood by different people, or …if you will, misused by different people.

And that is why in my opinion where an ultimate authority, Al Azhar, or another leading Islamic scholargroup can determine what is right interpretation and what is wrong interpretation of all the disputed Holy texts of Islam.
– If there is no central authority in Islam then the holy texts will forever be interpreted in a way that will give Islam a bad reputation. Because the terrorists cannot now be thrown out of the Ummah. You have to get used to that then, your whole hopefully long life; that Islam will for a long time and by many Muslims will be "dirtied". Because there is no central authority in Islam. THAT is the biggest problem of Muslims. And THAT is why you get critics like Ali Sina. It does not help that YOU think Islamic holy texts have a different meaning than the one the terrorists have, because the terrorists are free to declare that they fight and kill in the name of Islam, and Jihad. And we, the outsiders, only see it and report about it. Ir eally hope you understand this.

So you can be angry and frustrated about Boko Haram and now ISIS in Syria and Iraq, but without Al Azhar in authority this problem always remains.

And it makes Ali Sina more right all the time in his criticisms on Islam.

What I hope for is that Islam get's interpretedby many, many Muslims, in a manner that makes it suited for democracy and human and women rights, under our influence. And that Muslims who interpret Islam's holy texts like that, will ally with us Democratic people against the jihadists. Will you please respond what you think about democracy and women's rights in combination with Islam?

Thank you , In the reallity people of Syria want that Muslims to help them they don't want America to help them they don't even think…… they made a Free Syria Army and it's working ….. and they want from their Brothers in Islam to help them also praying Allah to save them and what i like is Syrian's Muslims that they are strong really and they have an ultimate confedence in Allah and it's really regrettable that we can't help them because we can't make an imposition of our opinion to the contry and Syria is Closed we can do nothing and it's Also anti-Islam even if the presedent is Muslim but from Shiaa which me as Sunni don't count them from us because they hate the prophet and their companions ….etc and they are in the case of Christians and Jews against Muslim civilian and i hate this because many people are daying without a reason they can't even get out of their houses and some lose their kid's and kid's lose their parents and some time from a familly one member survive and the Chimical bombe and the kid's are shouted some of them cuted and parts and schools are also sout by incindiary bombe and kid's are burned but Alive and it's catastrophic and the problem is that we can do nothig exept waching …

And in all the video that i have seen from assured sources of Free Syrian Army and injured people and bombing scene no one have mentioned America they want that Muslims and Arabic contry help them

And those people want that America End terorisme but the real terrorist is Bashar and their Army because of that Christians and Shiaa and Juws want that America intervien to help Bashar and keep syria as it was before because they want the power and the money and their rights and walk on Muslims and it will not happend …

America is Anti Islam too but covertly the proof is what happening to Muslims in Borma and America have no Word about this also in south Africa you can see Video on YouTube and like what you said America has falts even if it is known the nation of fair but it's not fair because the interests have invisible hand ….

Yes but the Muslims of that time arn't enought cultured about Islam and they want a Muslim prisident that they choose not that a national problem force them it's true that America help but now they Must to choose a new president that they want …..

+ Because of the Muslims hate the two their President and the Idea of America who will be like their president so they Just want to live in a Muslim Contry without a Non-Muslim hand i think …

Personally i'm with the Quran it's the true right and all it's laws are Good for me and what our prophet said ( exept the false "Hadith" ) and what Nonie said she have no Hadith of Verses that proof what she is saying exept some and they are valable for MUSLIMS and Non-Muslims it's not valable for them because we Muslims have duties that non-ones Don't have so example : you can't put an Owl to live in the water because it's not it's place she don't have the adequate specifications it's like that you can't bring a Muslims laws and compare it with a Non-Muslim made laws because we have diffirent lives

+ the one who created the Democracy laws is not Muslim so do you think that a non muslim will governs muslims with his laws No! because we can't let what Allah made for us and use a non-Muslim laws

You as a person if the one who create the dempcracy laws was a Muslim and made all laws as Quran said and you are not-Muslim does this laws make importance for you ? or you will follow them and let what your religion say ?

And you must to know that this program of prisident i don't know and bla bla bla was created by a non Muslim we Muslims we Musn't have a Prisedent we Must to have a caliph wich follow islam like in the past + this prisident idea i don't like it really because the prisident is who choose every thing without your opinion not like the caliph he can't take a desition by himself and it's better in every thing …….

and to tell you thati have this attitude i'm 100% with to be fair but Democracy laws no one said that they are fair 100%
they are fair for the non-Muslims but what do you think for Muslims ? Muslims have a completely diffirent life from the Non-Ones

I hope that we will dely this to some day because of the time and i hope that you Must to think that you have one democracy and many religions it can't be fair for every one and Islam is fair for Muslims others they are not obligated to do it

Hello,
Thank you and of course i want to listen to you all and see what is your knowledge about Islam because i know Many people that have false idea about Islam and i want to make it correct "In Shaa Allah " and about Al-Azhar i don't think that they have Time because they are developing their Knowledge and teaching people but we As Muslims We do not rely on Al- Azhar Al azhar is the University where the Savants learn and after this savants are who make books to make us understand this Quranic verses but not Al azhar it's our Savants who say and what is Al -Azhar it's a University wich is known of having Good Teachers that's all and the Quranic verses are understood in the Right way by Good persons like our Savants they are closest from us to Allah because they made their lifes for Islam so generally they are more Good than us and No one can understand this verses in the good way if he didn't have a clean heart and it's verry complicated and when you see this Savants they were teached the true Islam from old savants + with books of old good savants like "Ibn al Qayim " So why they don't say to us to go and bomb our self in a subway and why they even don't talk about it and Ibn al Qayim wich is a big savant have never talk about that we must to kill non-Muslims and i told you where is Boko Haram's Mistake and Islam is not like this

And i don't care about al Azhar it's a university who form people and teach them i care about Savant's and what they say like Ibn Uthaimeen aand many savant's because there is no proof that they are write exept if they Give us a "Hadith" because i want you to know well that we musn't obey Savants or al azhar we Must obey what Allah say and the prophet if someone say that we have to do something he must give me verses or "Hadith " if he haven't i won't to what he is saying because it's false ifhe don't have a proof and Allah make for us every thing clear a blind can understand ….

In the end we can go to hell if we kill a soul without a right Allah is verry fair and every one will have his bill to pay the price of his falts because no one will go to paradise with an atom slag no one will be cleaned from his slag without suffering because paradise isn't a general place it contain only Good people

//"but in Syria i'm with the Free Syria Army because they are not Terrorist they are Good people"//

Tnkuk, I am glad that you are a serious girl following the news and thinking about what is just and what is wrong and what is best for the people of Syria (and Iraq) under the circumstances. I too am like that.

But I come from the West, and, more importantly, from the Democratic standpoint. For me, America is our strongest nation, and sometimes America must act like a "policeman" and intervene in other countries, to help further democracy. And I know America has faults, but it seems that among Muslims there are those who really are against democracy and because of that really unjustly vilify and attack (with mouth and violence both) America and the West.

For instance; America intervened in Iraq and later Libya too, and now some Muslims say that Saddam Hussein and Muammar Khadaffi ruled Iraq and Libya better than the situation is now, before America and the West intervened. So, Westerners might say: OK, so now in Syria we DON't intervene! But THEN some Muslims, esp.inSyria, say that NOT INTERVENING is bad and evil from the West, saying for instance; "Oh, it is only because Syria has no oil."

But the problem with intervening in Iraq and Libya is that a big part of the population, turns against the West, because many Muslims really hate the West, and I think they really hate democracy, because of their interpretation of Islam.

So when the West intervenes and deposes dictators, then Muslims, very ungratefully, start to fight the Western soldiers! and to vilify the Western governments!

Now I would like more and more Muslims to side against anti-democratic Muslims and to make peace with the Western governments and democracy. Can you have such an attitude?

//"Do you really think that if i have time i will vanish i will never vanish if i have time i swear"//

Hello Tnkuk, I read your reply. I found it very interesting. I like to debate further about what you write.

It is no problem that you absent yourself on grounds of busy schedule. I believe you that you are very busy. and tired too. And I am still glad you think about and write back about this important debate.

And of course you are entitled to your opinion. it is just that I think you should be more modest and listen more to what we have to say.

Of course you know a lot about Islam. But we here do know also a lot about Islam. And that there are some big problems because in some ways Islam seems to contradict Democratic Laws and human, and women rights principles and also to inspire fight against the West.

Or maybe wrong interpretation of Islam does!

If you come to debate here, you should be prepared to talk but also to listen to us with open mind. That is what frustrates us; Muslims coming here and giving us their strong opinion and condemnation of Ali Sina.

And then these Muslims are not prepared to stay when we try to explain to them why and how Ali Sina and we come to our conclusions.

One example; you still seem to think that Islamic holy texts only allows for ONE TRUE VALID interpretation. But I want to emphasize that on important parts of these holy texts there are more than one logical interpretations possible. So the interpretation of holy texts of Boko Haram is ALSO LOGICAL.

And yes, Boko Haram does make the name of Islam very dirty. But I say, why don't Muslims then decide to appoint Al Azhar University to decide what is the VALID interpretation of Islamic holy texts on key issues, like war against the Americans, or killing apostates etc.

And then Muslims who reject Al Azhar's interpretations of Islam's holy texts can be thrown out of the Ummah, declared non-Muslims. But then you, Tnkuk, totally reject submitting to Al Azhar's authority. But don't you see, in that way Boko Haram can still "dirty Islam's name, because no one throws them out of the Ummah, no matter how they interpret Islam's holy texts.

It is because discussing Islam and Democracy is so complex that I don't want you to "vanish" and that I want you to be open to what we have to say to you.

Sorry your Reply didn't have been sent to my Mail so i didn't seen it exept now i was looking for a reply that i have write and it's false and i was thinking of what i was saying and Hop i realize that i was Bla bla bla and it's about when i have seen Bokoharam's Video were they kidnape Girls from schools and they said in the video that people must to follow them Sunni and i'm sunni but i really don't know what i was saying i'm really sorry for that Really i don't know what i was talking so please i will re-say it in the right way :

Boko haram are Muslims Yes i know but they are in the wrong way they are killing innocent people and Allah didn't say this at All if he said this it will be the end but he said in Quran (16:125 ) <<Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.>> and they do the opposite of what Allah say and also Muhammed didn't kill people he invite them and they wanted to kill him and the Muslims and they take Muslims and Muhammed out of their houses so it was and obligation for Muslims to fight to re-take their houses and their Money and what Boko haram is Doing is Making the name of Islam dirty and it's not Good because Allah said too in Q(60:8) <<Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. >> and those Boko are doing exactly the opposite so i don't think that they are True Muslims they just love to die by bombing people but in Syria i'm with the Free Syria Army because they are not Terrorist they are Good people but Bashar's Army are the terrorist they are bombing innocent people without a reason but F.S.A are trying to end this injustice and isupport them and i don't care about who say that they are terrorite because i know that they are not i know what is happening in Syria

And i'm not vanishing Look i will give you my daily program and you tell me if i'm busy or not Okay ? sertenly in this Holy Moth in Islam "Ramadhan" + i have to memorize 564 page before the end of this summer vacation ( 2 month remained )

i wake up at 10 A.m and i go to memorize the most possible of the pages and i don't really memorize a lot i memorize Maximally 4 page a day and sometimes 1 page and it take from me much time because i must to memorize it letter by letter and i have an exam once a week and it take the whole day but because i have to pray i have 5 hours and at 5 pm i must to go and help my mother because in "Ramadhan" we must to not eat from the dawn to the sunset so we must to prepare the breakfast and it take 2:30 – 3 hours and after this we have our breakfast and it's 9 pm we have to Go to "Tarawih" which is praying in the "Masjid " and it's end at 12 am and i come to the home tired and i can't sleep and i can't memorize So i try to sleep and it's impossible so i must to wait the somnolence 12:30 >> 1:30>> 2:30 >> 3:00 Am and i don't know how the time run just like this and now i must to prepare myself to pray and when i pray the sunshine began and i can die from Tiredness and i sleep 6 hours and it's 10 Am again and i can't memorize when i'm tired and it's impossible to think that i must to diabet someone in this Mini time now when i'm writing i lost the time and i didn't memorize my Page and tomorrow i will try to do the double work….

Do you really think that if i have time i will vanish i will never vanish if i have time i swear but it's not in my hands it's my duties i have many even my friends i didn't talk with them i don't have time even for my family or myself every second is important for me

@Shabeer,
Qur'an 50:7 And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs) . This is enough proof that Qu'ran is suggesting a flat earth. It is also saying that the mountains are standing firm that is static which is against the geological phenomenon of Plate tectonics. It also says that all organisms are in pairs but this is also not true. There are many organisms that reproduce asexually and are, thus, unpaired. For example bacteria, virus, many sponges, corals etc. So wrong on three counts, Geologically, Biologically and Geographically.

@Demsci
I think there is solid substance exist in Islam/Quran ,therefore this Boko -Haram applies them religiously upon the quest for/of making whole world Islam (on back of it ,vested interest for power being the driving force) .Btw Boko Haram means "Western/Modern education is sin",just see their mentality they/Islam want to drag we human's into stone age .I support your engagement ,but don't you think ,you are convincing an innocent girl ,who did not traveled beyond Islamic teaching (conditioned by Islam ).I am really sorry for her state of mind.Any way you are doing yeoman service engaging her/ them.Keep it up.

Tnkuk. It is not that I disrespect you, and also I understand that you have to study.

But you ARE vanishing, disappearing, running nonetheless. We here have seen your kind numerous times. Very combative, but non-answering when the discussions got tough. Invariably invoking the excuse of being too busy or some other excuse.

I told you you would vanish soon, and after less than a week, poofff no more Tnkuk. I think our challenges were too difficult for you. But why can't you be honest about it?

Thank you very much for sharing you opinion with me and you must to know that there is scantific miracles in the Quran that you must to see and one of them Muhammed told it in a "Hadith" and it's right it's assured by the sciances and again don't see islam in the wrong place see Islam from it source the arabic Islamic world not pAKISTAN an Nigeria because they are far to be the real Islamic contry and i hope that you will see the true Islam someday and you satisfy yourself because you are looking the wrong place and you can loose your end so i hope from you to be really sure for what you want

That is all fine and nice, but you have this BIG PROBLEM that the Pakistani's and Shabeer also use the names Islam and Muslims. And that they also study and interpret Quran and Sunnah. And they use this for motivation of many of their bad attitudes and actions. And Pakistan has 180 million people, so different Muslims are very probably not such a minority!!!

No, you have to consider that the problem is that you use the names Islam and Muslims without even clarifying that it is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of Quran-Sunna. If you stay as you are, you keep this problem your whole life. A possible solution" Become some sort of " Democratic Muslims" like Qanta Ahmed. But many say this is impossible, but maybe it is possible. Hundreds of millions of Westerners, many politicians think this is possible.

//"i really whant to talk with this Chuck really but i don't have many time i have to study and i have exams and it's not the ideal time to talk about that "//

Of course, good luck with your study. Thank you for: Responding and continuing a valuable discussion. And for thinking about Boko Haram. And talking about it with your family.

I reiterate: Is n't it for a big part due to HOW Islam (Quran-Sunna) is interpreted? Boko Haram people may be repugnant but are they really mad, totally wrong in THEIR interpretation? Any way if I could I would not let you off the hook so easily any more by saying: Oh, THAT is not Islam, but what I am taught is the ONLY true Islam. If I could I would like to stimulate you to think and talk about it often. And really take sides with all the democratic people against all the fascist people. So that you are more in alliance with good democratic people than with bad muslims.

No they know because Islam need the know to be done because every thing is a Mistake only if you have a good intention and there is many things "Haram" and no one in the arabic islamic world is interrested in Boko haram or know them my family don't know them because it's not our business Terrorisme also our savants have never talked about them or know them we have a peaceful life out of the terrorist and don't accuse the true Islam by what teachers in pakistan and nigeria do okaythey are not even savants of islam they just teache as what they have understood of islam

It's not like i want to vanish it's because i don't have Much time and if i don't reply to you you will say we are write and Islam is bad i really want to talk a lot certenelly in such things but i'm occupied so much and i really want to diabet with every one sertenelly Chuck really but when you don't have time it's not you who choose it's the time

Yes and it's suffisant Quran and Sunnah and I came to the world and i'm teached like all Arabic Muslims not like Pakistan Muslims or Nigiria who have less experiance and the whole islamic savants are from tha arabic world not other from the past till now

and they Tell the same because we are teached in the same way Mr and it's the same Islam and if you liik at Shabeer or i don't know one person isn't the whole nation
and to end this problem you can see on the TV ot the net what they teache us do you want some channels names or the names of our savants it's more sure to you to see with your eyes what they teache us ?

anyway i know islam verry well and i see our savant'son the net and we have the same interpretation and they NEVER talk they bring "Hadith" and from oooooooold savants of that time if you just understand Arabic 😡 it will be more good and they tell us what Muhammed say that's all we never talk about Jihad not like in Pakistan they teach them that they have an obligation to Jihad and invite to islam by force but not like our big savants they invite to islam with the good way with a peaceful conversation not a bombe

Any way i don't like those Boko haram and i asked my family about their opinion in this BOKO haram and they said that it's really not what Islam said sertennelly in the part of kidnapping Girls :/ and killing people and they said that it's not like that and they told me the verses in wich God say And Invite to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and they told me that it's wrong what they are doing i gived you a whole family opinion and i have seen them thank you and they are terrifiant

Yes i have seen they declared a war to Christians and they kidnape many Girls and it's bad and they said that they will sell them -_-" it's really not what Islam say they made Islam dirty they are fool i hate them because they are doing wars in the name of Islam and i really whant to talk with this Chuck really but i don't have many time i have to study and i have exams and it's not the ideal time to talk about that

//"y are not Muslims i said that they are Humans and every Human is responsible for his actions and in 1 Billion Muslim Around the world inderstand Islam like what i tell you and there is only terrorist who inderstand this in the wrong way "//

Nooo, really, there are even more Muslims 1,57 billion, 22,3 % of humans now. BUT most of them don't care much, don't know know much about Islam. It's a way of living for them.

Many infidels already know more about Islam than many Muslims . Among them many ex-muslims, like Nonie Darwish. And they endeavour to show the world what it really, really is, what self-professed Muslims do and practice, through MEMRI TV and Jihad Watch and many other websites.

And good luck with denying it all your life what other self-professed Muslims, them being also thinking people, interpret different from you and your teachers from the very same texts, Quran and Sunnah. You can vanish, deny, but you cannot honestly investigate in depth both sides, what Muslims say and what critics of Islam say, all your life (and we know you are a serious spiritual persn) and keep the same convictions you have now.

Or would you like infidels to get the impression that more than half of Muslims somehow misunderstand or misuse Islam and the name Muslims, and are liers or stupid all those many many times we can show you they disagree with you? and we can show you, we have MEMRI TV and Jihad Watch and all those media. And we really can provide proof, if you demand, but then you have to have the patience to study it too.

&nbsp;//"Now if Negeria and Pakistand don't know how to teach Islam it's not MY or MUSLIMS problem this is what i want to say "//

Well, then you simply are very much mistaken! Consider the following: In 570-632 Mohammed lived. In 610-32 he preached Islam. Now; what is it that Allah really meant to convey?? Well, he only left Quran and Sunnah (including Sirah).

Now earlier and older Muslims than you tried to makes sense of it and interpret it as it was meant.

And now YOU come onto the world and get educated by some savants, imams. And they and you are going to convince yourselfs and us that you have the right interpretations of Quran and Sunnah, even if we show how it massively and deeply contradicts what earlier and older Muslims have interpreted from that very same (because immutable) quran and sunna?

Look, thank UK(ami-Sama) your imams and you barged in on an already protected name; Islam. You call yourself the same as people, namely Muslims, who were earlier than you and interpreted quran and sunna different from you, WHO CAME LATER.

The logical solution is either A You study what these earlier people concluded and practiced from Quran and Sunnah, and adapt to them (perhaps guided by Al Azhar)&nbsp;
or B. You DON'T steal their name when you do not even know or care what they interpreted from Quran and Sunnah and start a new organisation under a new name, explaining to the world how you interpret Quran and sunnah.. And I suggest " Democratic Muslims", with whom 90 % of Westerners may like to cooperate.

Why don;t you understand you confuse us immensely by talking about "islam" and being good " muslims" when these names, long before you came along, were already taken by people radically different from you. And being thinking humans, they must have some good reasons to interpret Quran and Sunnah different from you!

//"i want to know ?
and i will see what Boko Haram say because you all are talking ok them and what would you from me to refute from them ?"//
They say they are at war. And that in war it is in Islam allowed to take woman captives and consider them slaves. They talk about and practice the verses about "right hand possessions". Don't deny it is from Quran and or Sunna, or I will call CHUCK, our best expert on Islam and arguing, to the rescue (you're lucky not to have debated with him yet). (So far I think he thinks you are not worthwhile to refute (as does Ali Sina))&nbsp;

But I respect you and want to let yourself develop. You know what, in Student life in Holland many discuss among themselves and change their mind, decisively. Try it at least.

Yes thank you but it's not like i have a long life Okay my life is too short and i haven't the time to enjoy this so i want to spend the rest of my life in peace but you have a wrong way that you understand islam in

I know i didn't say that they are not Muslims i said that they are Humans and every Human is responsible for his actions and in 1 Billion Muslim Around the world inderstand Islam like what i tell you and there is only terrorist who inderstand this in the wrong way do you want we to compare the nember of Boko haram and the 1 Billion Muslim it's not like we are ALL terrorist Okay there is a few number who is in two contries which are even not Arabic Islamic Okay and there is no Terrorist in our Arabic Islamic contry exept Algeria in the past which teached me what does Terrorist mean Okay ?! and when you see the whole arabic islamic world teaching Islam in that way and the savants from Sunna'h and Quran you will see 1 billion NO you ALL you go to Boko Haram and similar Terrorist Terrorist don't even do their 5 prayers and don't even pray God and don't even want to read Quran they don't have time they just kill and killing in Islam is forbidden okay exept with a real reason

Of course i won't run because i have the truth about Islam that 1 Bilion Muslim learn from Quran and Sunnah that the whole arabic Islamic teaches Now if Negeria and Pakistand don't know how to teach Islam it's not MY or MUSLIMS problem this is what i want to say

But why you let 1 Billion Muslim and you go to see a Terrorist ? i want to know ?
and i will see what Boko Haram say because you all are talking ok them and what would you from me to refute from them ?

Look Tnkuk, M.K. Goschuttnig is right; the Boko Haram ARE ALSO MUSLIMS. And they also use Quran and Sunnah. And they INTERPRET that. Look, you can vanish here and live like a sheep, a child, from now on. But you cannot deny this. And they are from Nigeria. Did you think not caring and ignorance are excuses for following Islam, and saying that YOU and your teachers have the only right way of explaining Islam?

You were brave enough to not run away, and I did offer you the way out of accepting that it is only YOUR INTERPRETATION of Islam that you defend here, not some "true Islam". If you stick to the attitude that your interpretation of Islam is the only right one, you have to study what Boko Haram and all these terrorists say. And refute them, not us.

You said life is a test, not meant so much to be happy, now let us test YOU.

//"Do you think that i believe in God just like this i have signs when people die in our family the good isn't like the bad we see things we have touched proof that God exist and we feel when God is Mad of you you will have experiance by time and God make many mercy for us like when you ask God his forgiveness and you are Honest and you don't do what you was doing all your falts will convert to good things and you feel this "//

Your feelings? They can neither be proved nor disproved. Science can provide you with different explanations. And that means you can't be sure, like I can't be sure.

If you are an intelligent student it is normal that you think, see both sides and doubt. Otherwise you are a lazy thinker and a sheep, following your shepherds, the savants, the imams, the tv-shows. Fine, but now you meet us; we are GOATS; independent thinkers, brave enough to doubt, worry, lay awake at night for hours, dissent, ask tough questions to our teachers and fellow believers.

look if you think that Boko Haram are my brothers you are wrong and if you think that they are my Son's you are wrong and if you think that they are my Babies you are wrong and if you think that they are my Daughters you are wrong and can you all stop mentioning things who have relation with Pakistan i'm not the Mother of PAKISTAN !!!!!!!! Pakistan here pakistan ther pakistan Hello pakistan bye what's wrong with you

I'm saying it for the i don't know time i'm not interrsted in Boko haram i don't even know what Boko haram did we are not interrested every one live his life like how he like like you and every one in the world Okay don't accuse me and Muslims of what Boko Haram do okay ?! because they are Humans and they did a mistake it's not my problem they are not my babies Go and accuse their Familly not me and Muslims okay ? + if you think that Islam say that we have to do what Boko haram do NOO!! he didn't Okay we in the Arabic world we didn't talk about Pakistan Okay ?! it's not our Business this Pakistan we talk about God and How to be closer to him Okay! you can see Islamic channels we don't even mention Pakistan and Suicide Bomber if they want to be suicide Bomber it's not my problem Okay?! don't accese Islam with Humans actions okay i know too a Christian who killed a whole familly and eat them but people didn't say "Oh a Christian" they said a Bad MAN okay and when i see Muslims in Borma they are Birned ALIVE and killed and hited and your Human's right ignored the situation WHY ? I WILL TELL YOU WHY because they are Muslims " It's Okay People they are Muslims" they Just want to eat and sleep they didn't wanted a contry or a million okay and Again don't accuse islam with Humans action

It's not like they understood Quran in the wrong way and YOU come to accuse Islam Okay accuse Boko haram and their familly because they didn't punish their kid's when they were young Okay it's not like i will let you accuse All Muslims because of a Fool band in Pakistan Okay they have the same religion but they don't have our names Okay ?! when you see a member of Boko Haram and a Quran on a book you will be scared of Boko haram or the Book ?! of course you will be scared of Boko haram not a Haly book okay So AGAIN don't accuse human actions with Islam we are 1bilion Muslim and only Pakistan who is Doing this don't accuse the 1 billion because of a contry in a war and don't talk about terrorism because i have an experiance in terrorisme and I AM who know what does Terrorism mean Okay because we had one in our Islamic* contry okay and they were killing us behind the Mosques okay they were not from us and i know what mean terrorist Okay don't talk in things that is not your Business please

And yes i'm the Slave of God and it's a big plasure to be and Proud , He don't need Us Okay?! but as his creation we must to Obey him and he did for us things that we hate to see if we will obey him or obey ourselves okay and he know who is and who isn't but to give you an argument for you or in your face okay yes and i Must to say that he is the Greatest because he is my God and i love him more that anyone and it's not you who will stop me or others

We are in this life tested we are not here to be happy or to make a life Okay we are here to be tested and pass the test who choosed the right answer he will go to the paradise and who choosed tha wrong one To the hell okay ?! and we are not here to eat and sleep and go to the W.C we are here to obey him by doing Good works like obeying your father and mother and to give poor people some money ……etc
Freedom and this is an argument for you or against you okay ?! You and Me haven't the right to Critic our God okay because he is the same you haven't the right to say something about him or against him because he is Perfect! okay if you don't like this Hell is waiting you you have the last chance few years before you die

And this is my dear the reason that you musn't Critic your Own God because you are the looser in the end and Allah isn't an Omni-pesent okay i'm sure + if you think that it's Muhammed you are wrong i'm not Fool sorry

Once more TORTURE is OK? Is this what you are saying? Because your stoned-gawd allah does it? Tell me how is Allah different from a BOKO HARAM MUSLIM who might kill a enemy?
I'll tell you how: The BOKO HARAM MUSLIM can do it ONLY once! YOUR stoned-gawd will do IT again and again and again and again. He sure gets a KICK out of it.
And do NOT SAY Boko Haram is NOT Islam, not YOUR opinion matters it is HOW they see themselves! If they are of the opinion that they have the ONE AND ONLY TRUE ISLAM, than all you MUSLIMS should make effort to EDUCATE THEM. I for one will NOT consider ISLAM as a choice!

And here goes your excuse out the window, in connection to BOKO HARAM one can read, by MUSLIMS like yourself THEY changed the koran.

How do you know that I do not KNOW God? Because I do not believe allah to be it?
Well what if my god is the flying spaghetti monster, (FSM) and I too am in constant contact?
How do you know that when I say my prayers of thanks to the “FSM” that it does not pat me on my shoulders and tells me what a loyal believer I am?

As to “forgive” allah can only forgive HIS SLAVES! Poor chap is so mentally immature! What DOES he WANT from me? To pray 5 times and constantly tell him he is the GREATEST? He needs humans to remind him of his own value?
If a god gives humans FREEDOM than this gawd has to accept that these humans make a decisions that does not involve him.

Dr. Martin Luther in one of the table conversations brought up a very interesting topic, if god (also YOUR allah) is omni-present, than he must be in hell too. Christians do NOT like this idea, for you Muslims it is fine even if allah tortures people. And this my dear is the strongest reason for me to reject ISLAM from the religious position.

It teache that there is a nation of people who are spoilers and if they distroy this barrier we are died so they will distroy it when God want and when the judgment day is close …..+ Jews when they heard that there is a new religion they asked Muhammed to give them information about "D-Q" and "Ass'hab Al-Kahf" to see if he is really not laying So God told him who is this "D-Q" and the others and he tells Jews of that time

please don't critic about things you don't know you must to be cultived in Islam to understand Quran it's not like you know nothing and you critic that it does not mean something

I haven't a blind faith i have proofs to my self that Islam is real i have seen and heard okay by"Myself" not apported stories

I have never been alone Allah is always with me what ever i do he is with me and you too and you don't know how God is merciful because you did never talk to a God and felt that he heard you and you must to be patient

No it's diffirent when you are tortured with a knife is defferent from the strongest ever fire
No he forgive every one but who died and didn't ask his forgiveness he will go to hell
No i mean that reading Quran in Arabic is more wonderful
No it's because you don't know this Greatest Allah Okay when you know him you will accept him and love him like me and "True"Muslims not when you read what he will do for who don't believe in him okay

It's because All these have been re-writed from the original one it's a man-made it have been re-writed by Pistachio head of the past exept Quran it's original and official

Because we are not friend with God we are his creation every bad one every rebel one who "Rebelled against his Creator" will be in Hell because he is a God not our friend or enemy and we must to obey God and respect him

He is not Alexander the Great because it was veeeeeery far from his date i think No one of savants say that but God know not us

No it's not like that this names discribe our God and this names he is the only one who is called with this names not a Human with him

That he heard the Prophet saying, "The Divine Inspiration was delayed for a short period but suddenly, as I was walking. I heard a voice in the sky, and when I looked up towards the sky, to my surprise, I saw the angel who had come to me in the Hira Cave, and he was sitting on a chair in between the sky and the earth. I was so frightened by him that I fell on the ground and came to my family and said (to them), 'Cover me! (with a blanket), cover me!' Then Allah sent the Revelation: "O, You wrapped up (In a blanket)! (Arise and warn! And your Lord magnify And keep pure your garments, And desert the idols." (74.1-5)

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455 : Narrated by Abu Ishaq-Ash-Shaibani

I asked Zir bin Hubaish regarding the Statement of Allah: "And was at a distance Of but two bow-lengths Or (even) nearer; So did (Allah) convey The Inspiration to His slave (Gabriel) and then he (Gabriel) Conveyed (that to Muhammad). (53.9-10) On that, Zir said, "Ibn Mas'ud informed us that the Prophet had seen Gabriel having 600 wings."

Story? A useless story, what does it teach? NOTHING! It does not give any advice which can NOT be found elsewhere in the quran. To have faith, how often is this said? That these who do not submit will get punished? What else is new? Jews knew it, the PAGANS had the same ideas, do some RESEARCH on the Internet than you will learn. So far your replies have already convinced me that you only have BLIND FAITH.

Do you experience being sometimes lonely and have nobody you can really relate to and share deeply?

Torture is still TORTURE, and I do NOT care who does it, or what means are being used.

Your stoned-gawd allah can NOT forgive those who do not submit! And I do also not care how beautiful the HELL-VERSES MAY read in Arabic, it is STILL THE meaning of it. TORTURE!
I can read the “holey” quran in German and English, this alone is GOOD enough for me to know, this allah DOES NOT deserve my praises, or admiration!

I've heard Christians defend Hell-fire and I've read/heard the same STUPID nonsense from Muslims. So SPARE me the PIG-MANURE of Islamic justification for ETERNAL Punishment.
I would not even want MY WORST enemy to be PUNISHED like that, and yet I'm the worst of creatures as the quran says.

As to Alexander the Great being considered as MUSLIM and “D-Q” go and look it up, it can be found in many places.

Can any of the 99 names of allah be understood as “Universal Parents”?

Yes but when God is with you you enjoy this i'm payed from Allah when i do this it's not like it's free hahahah Allah give us our Reward because of that every letter is payed

Do you think that i believe in God just like this i have signs when people die in our family the good isn't like the bad we see things we have touched proof that God exist and we feel when God is Mad of you you will have experiance by time and God make many mercy for us like when you ask God his forgiveness and you are Honest and you don't do what you was doing all your falts will convert to good things and you feel this

I haven't a brother but my father didn't prive me from anything and didn't make obligation he wanted me to choose my way and i did

He is not free my savant ^^ he have planty things to do so Ali who is sure about what he is saying must to get out and talk with him on LIVE and let you see him because you are his fan's no so he can end Islam from it's center no ?+ the savant isn't enought free for a website like aaaaaaaaaall savants do you see bill gate in his fan site ??? no it's like that

No Mistaar it's not like this because the woman will be reformed according to her Goodness it's depending of how much she was good one she will be the 100 double beauty of those virgin + they will be their Maid and Yes i'm waiting to die i know that my life is short not more than 3 years i think and i will go to paradise don't worry ^^ i'm closer but if i was Good enought and No one go to paradise by his work we go to paradise whith the mercy of Allah 🙂 and i trust that Allah and we have the judgment day who is closer day by day and we are seeing his signs just like what Muhammed said and you will see

it's a story to know he is discribing the place ….. and i don't really know many things about other religion i know just few things and Yes Allah is the Strongest

But do you know that the life fire is Equal to 1/100 Hell fire it's the pain who is important not your skin because it will be a level where your skin will finish and you stop feeling the pain so to feel the Full pain you have the same 100/100 pain + it burn the heart too

Ah about this no one of our savants said that D-Q was Alexander the Great so it's not assured
Islam is not fool i know that he is the real because we have proofs seen proofs and touched proofs not like the rest of religions and i have seen things that proof that Quran and Allah are real and those things you can only see them when you are in an Ilamic society and do what they do not by reading and English ver of Quran in your house and try to understand it by yourself ^^ + the whole charm of Quran is in arabic and thank you for the word gal :p

@Tnkuk
Call your Arabic SAVANTS here girl ,who prevented them ?Why you wish Ali should come for open debate ,anyone is comfortable to place his arguments,debate ,conversations here on this site .Let us see how this SAVANTS perform well against Mr Ali here.

Well a couple of things, I am of the opinion that the BODIES of humans were created in some variant of intelligent design using evolution, this is why the BODIES are similar. Your response tells me that you do not know much about OTHER religion, at LEAST not what they themselves teach. Be that as it may.

[quote: 2- The sun didn't set in the muddy water : in the Q(18:86) Allah said <<Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people.
[eoq]

OK lets look at “AS IF”. This is used to explain that the Sun did NOT REALLY set in a murky spring. So we have here a mystical figure, whom we do not really know, being at SOME place on gawds green earth, who simply has a OPTICAL illusion. You know, the eyes play some tricks on one. I'm really impressed with stoned-gawd allah, he writes (or lets the pen write by itself) the holey quran and includes a story how a ruler has a optical illusion! Sometime in the FUTURE! And then it happens!
So a person on a undisclosed location has a OPTICAL ILLUSION. Thats all, I do not see the significance of such a event that stoned-gawd allah wrote it down. And the people he met, nothing more about them, did they convert to ISLAM? This is something I'd be more interested in. Or were they already predestined as fuel for HELL-fire?

Sura 4 Verse 56
(one of over 100 I've counted)

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

When I've read the quran for the FIRST time, I had already read some violent hell-passages, but this one WAS the worst. allah has the power to replace the skin of the sinner, yet he does not use this for BURN-VICTIMS! How much good allah could do. I've burned myself many times, (came with the job I had at that time,) but this is something which comes out of a TORTUR manual.

You never heard of “Alexander the Great”? Well some Muslims are of the opinion that HE was/is “D-Q”
This whole issue of who “D-Q” IS, and what HE did (as a human) destroys in my mind all the assertions of the quran.

Even though there are many topics which in my opinion show the foolishness of Islam, I try to stick to “D-Q” for starters. But I must throw in stoned-gawd allah CLAIMS to have given the Gospel to Jesus…. 🙂

@Tnkuk
/Ow sooon i'm sure and i wil say hi don't worry ^^ and this stupid life isn't a paradise/
Then why are you here talking to us ,just go to Mohammeds paradise in heaven ,by just jumping in well .There also you will not be entertained ,because it is already occupied by 72 virgin white damsels,ever ready to satisfy Muslim man not you muslim woman.Open your Qur'an you will find this hard truth or else take expert advice on this issue from our beloved Dr Ali Sina.Ha ha ha …………………… 😀

//"and from that day i wanted to know about Islam and God and i'm happy "//

Thank you for letting me know your motivation, tnkuk, I understand. And you are polite and positive here I know, but here you receive many shocks, from me also, but it is not personal.

Often when I am trying to remember something that does not come to mind, it helps to let it go, and almost always the word or name that I look for pops up in my mind.

You drew premature conclusion. Believing in God is one thing. Seeking him in Islam is another and it is not logical. And just because you were raised in Islam too. Yes, you became very serious and studied hard, that is great. But now comes your next phase.

If you stay in Islam wholly in your outdated way, you will get stagnated. You must not only do Iqra, but also research for other wisdom than that in Islam. You don't lose Islam, you WIN something more true and beautiful.

And you should not stay in the same interpretation of Islam as the terrorists and the women-oppressors.

And eh, don't tell me over the internet, but wasn't your father, being too Islamic, too much oppressing your freedom as a female the great problem? As he would not have been a problem to a son of his, but only to a daughter of his?

1st i'm not married Okay + do you know that only in Saoudi arabia they have 4 wives in other contries it's not + Islam said that YOU CAN not you must okay the woman can before marrieng the man can tell him to not marry others wifes okay and if you think that there is not a hell and a paradise you will see them soon …Ow sooon i'm sure and i wil say hi don't worry ^^ and this stupid life isn't a paradise what ever you do it still a earth okay + you can't get what you want if you love Manga you will not meet them you have just to see them in a screen but when you are in a paradise you can even play a scene with them okay it's more cool + you will have every thing and this life is nothing i prefere every thing from nothing ^^

@Tnkuk
Oh dear ,i am very sane ,and i know how to deal with fellow human being ,no one can deceive me either with smart speaking ,including any Prophet ,God-man or a Scientist .I am an independent existence .I was not here before my birth and i will not be here after my death. I want to enjoy every thing available upon this earth.Like earning plenty of money ,having good food ,plenty of sex ,good sleep etc.The western world is doing the same thing ,they work hard including their woman.They invent many things of comfort on this earth ,instead of wasting their time praying unseen Allah for unseen Paradise ,they want to find paradise here ,what wrong in it .You think that ,only your husband can have sex with you (you feel you are the property of your husband ,this is how this criminal Mohammed conditioned you female in Islam).Is there any provision for woman in Islam to marry four Man ,what if your husband cant give you sexual satisfaction and your parents are very poor .Even you cant think of leaving comfort zone of your husbands wealth,at the same time you cannot deprive yourself from the real ecstasy of sex ,don't you think then of having extra marital relation,do you think you be killed for adultery . Ha ha ha …………………. stupid lady wake-up .

Look at yourself it you who change Always the subject because you can't refult it ^^ and you don't want to argument the Christian and i told another too but no one of you ^^ do you want you two to go to hell alone :O it's not nice aah o.0 little mysterious people Anywas i told you the truth of Ali and if you want to believe Okay and if you don't it's your life it's not like i will go to hell because i'm extra mexu sure that i'm in the right was and i think that you want to play with your life and you have been fooled by every one you and other we live a peaceful life and we even don't know that you exist i found this sit by an accident ^^ we ignore you and you are laying and laying and laying between yourself and it will be the day that All of you will paye his faults i'm verry sure and we will met verry soon and you will see how look the hell and i'm 100% sure of what i'm talking about and wait to see Ali he will be a lesson for you all 😉 Ha ha ha

@Tnkuk
Look how vulnerable you become ,when you can't answer my simple questions with simple logic ,how can you stand against the onslaught of Ali on your pedophile mohaqmmed .Many came and disappeared without trace arguing with Ali ,before giving any fight .No false "ism"sustain forever ,truth remains the fountain of wisdom,and Quran ,Islam,Mohammed,Allah are miles away from TRUTH,their demise is certain ……….ha ha ha.

Look i know about this verry well and don't think that Muhammed is a rapist okay ?! + if you think that Ali sina is great NOO he is not he is just a coward behind a screen okay he have only his finguers who write what HE think not what IS the truth Okay if he was a strong and great one he could come to the Arabic savants and proof them wrong okay not to play with people who think like him okay ?! + his book is full of lies i have read it and nothing is write he said that Gabriel was on a chair on the sky which i have Never heard in Islam and he said that people drink the Urin of Muhammed if a human dring Urin he will die i have experiance and i have heard from trusted sources that people have died because they didn't wash their hands and had a little effect of a mouse urine he died in few seconds Okay + he didn't bring true " Hadith" and when i proofed him wrong he is ignoring me till now i have send many E-mails but he don't reply because he have nothing to say okay if he have fooled you it's not my problem because i know what is Muhammed and What did he do ? okay their closest friends of that time told Us by talks and "Hadith" not with Ali sina fool book okay he is a big lie and things that have no relation with Mohammed they bring them

Yes there is a Aya of black hole + scientist have piked pictures of Blah Hole do you think that i'm Silly dear Mr i know Quran verry well and you can't see it's charm because you read is in English =_= + Do you know that Quran isn't a encyclopedy of Animals it contain few few few animals + if it was metionned that ther was Dynosors No one will be Muslim because when the Quran cames down it was the full desert + people didn't know that there was dynasors until 1600 or 1700 or i don't know they found a dinasore
Ha ha ha who are those can you give me their video please ? + i have seen a girl who is Christian and it's a crap the bibble she said that if you want the video i will search it for you to see ^^ and the Quran is true i know it 😉

@Tnkuk
There is age for marriage ,we call it upon "reaching puberty",even birds and other animals follow this natural law .Before internet invention ,the world was unaware about the heinous crimes perpetrated by this false prophet Mohammed to the humanity .The Arabs and their clerics knew about this and they brought blasphemy law to curtail any body from raising voice against this criminal Mohammed.But the world gradually coming to know the history of this narcissist,misogynist conman road robber Mohammed.We know this pedophile better than you ,your interpretation is least considered ,we already have greatest interpreter Dr Ali Sina,who has dissected this mohammeds mind extensively and perfectly…………….ha ha ha …………..;)

@Tnkuk
Oh!!!Taquiya at its best ,show which Aya and which sura of Quran,Sira or Hadit substantiate your claim.Do you think Black Hole exist ? Only because some scientist had placed this theory ,it doesn't mean that it is true :*. Tomorrow if the black hole theory is disproved then.Why the Allah has not mentioned about Dynasore ,which existed millions of years early to human advent on this earth . :o. Oh come on girl,don't try to fool others and don't get fooled by this useless out of box Quran science,for your better future. In Egypt many youngsters are tarring the Quran and throwing them in their dust-bean,they realized it is a total crap (you can have them on youtube doing that)

Ow he didn't rape her + a Girl in Islam if she don't want to marry she will not because even if his father obligate her it will no be marry because God said so

+ if he raped them they will tell us they have a mouth do you know and if you have seen the film of Muhammed it's what the writer of the story think not what their friend and aisha told us 😉 don't worry i know my prophet :p

Ooooh please i told you the truth i told you that the earth in Quran mean the floor if you want to know about the PLANET he said that he created stars and moon and the black Holes on the space which a human from the earth can't see "Al ard" isn't a planet it's a land Okay he didn't talk about the planet he talked about that the thing that we live in have like a ball form + he said that it turn about itself and he said that the sun don't move ^____^ which is suffisant and it's not Muhammed who writed this because if you see the charm of Quran in Arabic you will loose your mind it's more wonderful that English :p and Allah say that he have created every thing wich mean All things including Hell and Paradise you must to read the Quran in Arabic it's the Most beautiful thing ……Ha ha hi ho ha 😉

Hahahahaha what a poor man i will tell you
1- Allah didn't say the earth is flat Hhahahahahahha because 1st- with the word "Al ard" is not a planet /Hahahahah he didn't say the planet earth hhhhhh + we named her the earth okay + 2- "Al ard" is the floor the land the thing that you are standing up when you are in a forest this one is flat and when you take an area of the sea you can see that there is a flat land on it but he didn't say the planet earth is flat hhhhhhhhhhhh + when he say "al ard" he always say the plants and montains okay don't try to disturbe yourself :3 /
Do you want to say the Planet earth is not created by Allah , then it means he is not the creator of all this Universe. Because if he had created this planet earth ,then he would have said ,"Oh my dear people ,this earth on which you are walking now ,though look flat for your naked eyes ,infact it is in round safe" .He had not said like this in your Quran ,this shows your Allah had never went out of this earth. Do you know who this Allah is ,it is your lunatic Mohammed .This Allah is his altar Ego ha ha ha…………:o .Because Allah see the things from human eyes ha ha ha……….;)

@Tnkuk
1. He raped Ayesha at the age of 9 ,he was pedophile.
2. He forced his adopted son to divorce his wife Zainab ,then married and raped her.
3. He killed father ,husband ,children of Saffiya the Jew woman and forcibly married her and raped her .
How can this killer ,rapist ,rod robber psycho can become a Prophet ha ha ha…………very ugly to think.

Nooo he is not because you don't know him + you haven't the right to Critic a God you can critic me and say what you want but not my God and my prophet if you are a good person you will understand this and if you are not it's your problem but try to respect my God it's not a way to talk about him

No, if he haven't a proof he is discribing himself + he musn't talk like if he was a Handsome man maybe he is more ugly than a hamster :/ + he haven't the right to critic the Humans because he is one of them

"The mother of Isahh didn't have a sister okay i don't want to tell you whole is family they were known that her mother Sterile so she prayed God to give her a boy but she had a girl and this Girl is who you call Mary and she God gived her a boy which you think that it's Issah i know whole the story don't try to tell false stories 😉

Loook Man ypu can say that i'm stupid and you can say that i'm what you want just say But don't talk about Allah like he don't exist and like saying "IT" because i will never forgive you about this try to respect 1,5 billion God Okay + Allah know every thing and what is in the Bibble about Jesus we know all the truth you who don't know it and you keep wanting to not know

Muhammed didn't lie about anything he Always say the truth + we know why is Uthman killed + it's from a assured sourse not like you you go to the lie source and bring Talk and try to convince me with it

It's notlike i'm 15 years Old -____-" Anyway it's not a funny joke because you haven't a proof that Muhammed fornicate girls did "Aisha" tell you ? NO / did you seen him ?? NO / did his friends get mad of him and said this ?? NO please don't talk about things that you don't know that you Ignore tottally

I didn't saw Allah but i saw his word and his Prophit told us about him so i prayed him and he Responded my wishes i wanted to have a Netbook i had one i wanted to have 15/20 as an average in my "Certificate of secondary education" and i had it + wanted to had 14 in my 1st secondary school year and i had it if you want i will send you my paper to be assured by yourself + i wanted a Special kind of Mp4 and i had it and i wanted to go to Spain and i went there i wanted to have a beautiful hair and i had it and i wanted a healthy skin and i had it and i wanted a microphone and i had it and i wanted and all these things are free Hahahaaaa 🙂 i'm lucky + many many other things and one day i was ill and i was in my cousin house and it was baaaad because i wasn't strong to stend up it was catasrophic and @[email protected] so i prayed God that if he heal me i will ask his forgiveness 1000 times a day and after 3 seconds i was heal i was like O_O what it's soo fast and i lived happy 🙂 how could i not believe in Allah and he saved me from many things :3
My Prophet didn't seen him because no one have the right to see Allah only in the paradise not all people the believers this is depanding to your level of pradise 🙂 so you can "HA..HA" as much as you can becaus you will end it by " Wa..Wa" T_T so it's your right to be happy here

Don't mix pakistan with my contry and don't mix Humans with others mix sugar with water not people with others they have just my religion they are Humans i'm not their Mother to care about them they are humans it's not islam who is doing this he have a body and do thins it's people who buy bombes and kill themeselves i don't care about them it's their life and it's my life a choose the peace and they choosed the war it's not my problem if they have inderstood islam in the wrong way they will be punished anyway from Allah

My father is a big sciantific in Biology and my mother is too but in the neuro sceince don't think that i'm a fool one i have two sciantific parents which are known on the world not only in my contry Talk about yourself

Thank you for your help but i don't want to be a traitor of Mercy i want to be faithful and i don't want to be illiterate thank you for your proposal it's nice from you and malala is in pakistan and i'm not
she is in a war place i'm not it's not my problem if Humans shot her school without a reason

TnKuK,
Jesus is not 'Isaah' of the quran whose mother was the sister of Moses who lived more than 2000 years earlier. How the two people could have been siblings shows the empty pigheadedness of allah. Allah further demonstrates its stupidity by alleging that the man crucified was a substitute without mentioning the name of who it was. Allah did not know because there was no substitute.
Muhammad had lied about receiving revelations which he recited as the quran. Uthman was killed for distorting those lies. Muhammadans believe and live on the lies of the world's greatest conman.

@TnKuK ·
How old are you girl? May i send Mohammed to fornicate you? ,if you belong to that innocent class of six ?. When did you saw Allah ?. even your prophet robber Mohammed failed to see him …Ha Ha Ha ..very good joke. Did you participated in the training of Muslim terrorist groups,i mean how to become a human bomb to target innocent people to appease demon Allah.My dear child take very good education ,it seems you are mentally disturbed and need urgent attention ,i knew you are an innocent kid ,surrounded by illiterate mullahs (including your parents).We are ready to help you come out of that ugly Islam like Malala Yusupjai ,a Pakistani girl who has been shot by this fanatic Mullas's ;the followers of this cunning Mohammed.Let almighty take care of you.

+ I hope that you will change you name because if you didn't you are a fool rassict and i hate those Pistachio heads people

So, please if you love your Jesus just change your name and if you love the man who is the bibble talking about + some lies he is not jesus for your infirmation his name is "Issah" and he is the son of Mary " Meriem" and he was a good person who called for that there is One God and to stop bad works and if you love the coressed one he was attacked because jews thought that he was "Issah" so they killed him and they changed his religion and re-write the Bibble as what they want and you all are had been tricked it's your life and do what you want

It's not TriKuK it's TnKuK which negative people can't understand which mean "
Tnk: thank
u: you
K: kami-sama which mean God in Japenease
No i'm not a mid-gate
No i'm not fractured in my post
I know that there is a Hell and Paradise because because Allah told us about every thing" every" thing
Because Hahahaha poor Chrisian think that Jesus is " Issah" the man who the bibble keep talking about but he didn't die one guy named "Yahitha" it's a veeeeeeeeeerrrrrrryyyyyyyyyy long story was crossed so jewish invented this story wich Christian think that it's true to not perturbe their religion in that century So Jesus is who was crossed so Jesus is "Yahutha" not Issah who the bibble keep talking that he is a good man and i don't know so it's a big lie so they are praying to "Yahitha" which was a traitor in that time + poor one so he desurve Hell
I know Muhammed verry well than any layer of you all Ali sina too is a liar so i know that Muhammed is a Good man and he did nothing bad and you haters of this tame and the last century hated him so much so they wanted to kill him and it's a long story too so they created false talks about him and you fool all are Okay with this it's true All his talks ( true ones) he talk anly about good things he is a good man + Allah told us about every thing what will happens when you are in the rip and in the Judjment day and what is the reality of this life not like you

I'm a woman and Mohammed didn't rape girls and in Islam i live a wonderful life don't talk in the place of Women in islam she can talk if she is Raped

@Trikuk
What is the meaning of your postal name ? .Are you a mid-gate ? .Why are you so fractured in your post?. How you came to know ;there is hell and heaven ?. What is your base;Jesus is leaving in hell ?,and why not Mohammed?.Do you think woman are only procreation machine.Do you love only eating and sleeping on the bed waiting Mohammed?. Don't you think you are demonstrating pigs mentality ?.

Don't worry you will see him in the Judgment day and you will cry for him to dave you 🙂 + you will see "Yahutha" the man who were crossed and you think that he is Jesus he will say hi and you will be in Hell together you can hug him and cry togather it's more funny

Quran 3:151 -The Terror – We (al Lah and Muslims) will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with al Lah of which al Lah had not sent down authority. And their (disbelievers) refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers (disbelievers).

knowing the reason why he dint do it face to face?
because the c4 terrorist is waiting,and they gt ntg to do with debate…
they seek to kill sina from the beginning…who is so stupid until trying to debate with a bomb?

dear abdoulhadi
Ali Sina is not a christian.
Ali Sina was an iranian muslim, now he is an atheist.

You write:
there is a verse in quran wich says : fight those who fight you and do not transgress…ect……..
Yes but your Allah sees it as an insult, and a transgression, if someone is not a muslim.
So non-muslims are free prey for muslims, said Allah.

assalam o alaikum
listen sina i have read your site ,we cant say that you are right if you are right then why dont you debate with any muslim scholar face to face i know that you are scaring ,you are thinking that someone will kill you ok but if you will debate with someone face to face and if he kill you so people will think that you sacrifice your life for truth and they will believe you..
and you didnt debate with any good scholar the problem is this that no muslim religion scholar knows about you in pakistan …..and they also do not use internet …..and ghaamdi is not known as good scholar in pakistan….
you can ignore any point of debate with writing but the debate which will be face to face then no one can ignore any of point….

I know you won’t believe this but I will tell you anyway. I was taken to the next world and was shown the paradise and hell. What I saw was shocking. I saw Muhammad in the bottom of hell and all Muslims are in hell. I was given the duty to save Muslims from hell. But I was told I must only use reason and logical arguments and not my own experience in heaven and hell as evidence. So you don’t have to believe in that. But pay attention to my logical arguments or you will go to where Muhammad is, and that is not a good place.

You organisation should deffend jesus christ and make all ur time and ur whole life looking to understand what jesus christ said and what is his messages if u are so christian…and same thing if you are jewish or any other faith or religion…..muslims are the best nations on earth and the first and the last who take care of their faith-religion- look to their holy places and area llok at the nice mosques as u said give their best to build mosques…and so on……all ur time ur money ur life to destroy islam but inn the end see the last statistics abt islam try to up dates ur brain abt what is really happening in the world
more then 200 000 american converted to islam in USA eatch year and 680 000 in the world best of them are stars and scientist the have no thing to do with islam but with sciene and facts..u and ur org r wasting ur time ..if u stay thlike that u loosers……….. good luck

salamou alaikoum. ALISINA dont be like those who have a heart harden then the stones . be cause from the biganing you were talking to people about islam through what muslims do and show the miracles of islam through what few muslims have said abt thise or that… But a true scientist should be objectif…go through sciptues and say the truth that there is a verse in quran wich says : fight those who fight you and do not transgress…ect……..and allah dont like those who r transgressors ..tell them that r so many other in wich says ……that god allmighty will close the hearts of the people like this so that they cant understand the real meaning of islam only thrugh their good deeds….So dont think that god allmighty will guide you just be cause you know the truth…itw not the brain who guide you to the light itw your hearts….all what you said abtr islam and its miracles is wrang b cose u are searching where you aill find no thing then Hatred….

That's a pretty good analysis. The next step is whether God is interventionalist or not. I think he left us here to learn how to manage the situation ourselves. David Berlinsky answers the Holocaust question by saying that the flattening of Germany by the Allied bombardment is as good a divine retribution as anything in the Old Testament. My Military History specialty was WWII Europe. In reading the accounts of battles when things should have gone in favor of the Nazis but didn't because of something odd, stupid, or Hitler's incompetent intervention, it seemed like the hand of God subtly shaping the outcome. But if it's time for a plate to shift, I don't think God is going to hold it back just to prevent a tsumami from killing people. God has instituted natural laws and generally is an upholder of law rather than an exempter. On the other hand, I think he is very active in guiding the lives of individuals for their good through influence on thought and feeling. I don't have a problem with the Fermi Paradox because I believe God runs a universe of order and doesn't let people come to interfere with our development any more than a mother will let strangers in off the street to mess with the kids in the playroom.

the word Coincidence has many sides of understanding. It reduces the (perception of) intentionality behind things that stumbled upon or happens to you or other people at the same time. if we choose not to make meaning out of it, it is when we usually describe something as a coincidence. BUT, it won't automatically remove the intention off the incidence, because you choose to ignore it in the first place. It's really up to our own choice.

The only way you could know the presence of intention is by asking the subject who did it (But still it really depends on whether you have some degree of trust to the answer), The other way is by knowing about any hints of possible intention on previous similar incidences that have happened to you or other people before you. thus you'll make an inference that it is not a mere coincidence, correct? and I guess most major religions have had stories about how to comprehend such disastrous events. it's just how far the people believe what happen now contains the intentionality of what have happened before.

to make something has some degree of meaning, we need these to happen first: 1. the event should be noticed (comes to your realization). 2. there are other knowledge (told or self-learned, and then believed) related to such event. So, If you say that God is 'suppose' to be controlling this nature, then probably you should ask yourself how far is your understanding of a controlled situation based on how nature's work (not your assumption) and how much do you know about what it takes to control this universe anyway?

That means disaster is human perception. When it happens when no one is around you call it natural phenomena but when there is human around you call it disaster. Coincidence would be more accurate.

I don't think the disaster reach any point you've assumed because it happens to all religions and people, let alone building. Beside, "to be saved" is a misnomer since god is supposed to be controlling this nature.

But u should remember that no disaster is a disaster when no human lives around it. It could be a mere nature's force as what people usually say. This as well goes to your understanding : What you eventually think of an event, is simply what you're meant to be learned. It could be a warning for the muslims who lived nearby the ruined mosque, as well as a prove of the power of God to choose one / some among many mosques to be saved from destruction.

this is not a supernatural. the reality is when people Build a worship place, the put maximum effort , Build with strong foundation, those are resistible, look surrounding build with poor way. but some mosque build very poor way those are failing down . don';t loose your faith with super natural believe.Allaha is just of all.
huda

But do not understand the difference between a Muslim extremist and a rotten apple kkk Christian. A Muslim extremist follow Mohamed teaching extremely and take Quran literally. And extremist kkk Christian is going against the teaching of Christ. Do you NOT see the difference JSOP. How long are you going to close your eyes and drink the milk and pretend no one seeing you do the act.

"On the Hadith it really depends on what sect you belong to" What does that mean? If one sect says this is an example from Muhammad and another says no this a Fabrication, who is right? Anyway they would not be sects but different religions (for all intents and purposes).

“Never said it was right to kill them not where did I say that was right in my post again trying to make me look like I said something which I never said” Well you did seem to be implying it, because those savages had been “incited” by Jones they could not be held responsible for their actions.

“Those crimes were committed by extremist Muslims not everyday Muslims learn the difference” Is burning the Koran according to a “everyday Muslim” like you a crime or not?

By the way can you read latin greek and hebrew? Sure things get lost in translation, but For the most part the meaning stays the same. Do the members of the UN or the EU have time to learn ten’s of languages just so they can understand perfectly?

Never said you were going to burn in hell you on the other hand have
Do not tar me with a bad deed that you did but alas you are used to doing this

Its ok I do not really care what a few extremist try and say as you do not make up the majority of Christians and Jews and the world will not sit on it hands and let fanatic extremist try and persecute an entire Religion and try and justify it

You and others on here are not God and are violating the Rights of Muslims I do not care who you are what you think you are and what you claim to know but you all will not succeed in this hatred you are spewing from your mouth as you are not all above the law.

You probably don't meet the prerequisites to take one of my linguistics classes.

"There is a difference between someone claiming to be smart and using words to look smart then actually being smart and knowing what they are talking about."

You are just an amateur challenging professionals and having an attitude of superiority while you are at it.

"So you constant put downs of Muslims and name calling and threats are not a character assassination ?"

Define put down. Be specific about what you think I said that is a put down. As far as I can see, your position is that criticizing Islam is a put down of Muslims. You do not know how to distinguish ideology from people.

"Wait you are not going to say I am going to burn in hell are you ?"

It's called giving you a taste of your own medicine.

"(Play God)"

Yes, you do play God, following the perfect example of your prophet who was the first Muslim to play God.

"On the Hadith it really depends on what sect you belong to"

Which Hadiths does your sect reject? You are just dodging and avoiding being pinned down by the evidence. This site only uses the sahih hadiths.

"So you see the one word terror mentioned out of the entire Hadith and you all jump to the conclusion on that one word to terrorism (current era word)"

Do a word count. Your knowledge of Islam is superficial and uninformed. Or you are a liar.

Everyday Muslims disregard the Quran. That's how they are able to preserve their humanity. But because they accept the Quran as the word of God, they are like disease carriers because at anytime the Quran's violent teachings can become activated within them.

Before you use a word I suggest you understand what it means.
There is a difference between someone claiming to be smart and using words to look smart then actually being smart and knowing what they are talking about.

So you constant put downs of Muslims and name calling and threats are not a character assassination ?

Wait you are not going to say I am going to burn in hell are you ? (Play God)

On the Hadith it really depends on what sect you belong to

So you see the one word terror mentioned out of the entire Hadith and you all jump to the conclusion on that one word to terrorism (current era word)

It's just part of their usual ad hominem character assassination style. Spencer et al just read hadith, Quran and Sira the same as Ali Sina. A constant flood of character assassination is followed complaints at being called a terrorist.

“Suicide Bombing is a contradictions of Islam as it is hurting an innocent and taking there life and it is harming oneself with are both contradictions of the Quran” What about the rocket attacks or the car bombs? Or any attack that targets civilians?

“This violence is not Islam” Yes it is.

“1 % of Extremist do not represent the other 99% of Muslims” I never made such claim.

"There are many who disagree with violence but alas you never hear about it in the news as they only highlight the violence in Islam to justify invading lands and wars ect (Art of War)" As far as i remember George Bush (junior) came out and said “Islam is a religion of peace” and who ever cited the violent teachings of Islam to justify any war? Unless you mean when Pakistan invaded Bangladesh and killed them and raped their women because the Pakistani clerics declared them kaffirs. Or did Saddam do it when he invaded, occupied and annexed Kuwait?

“You forget to mention that the Quran burning was inciting the Muslims and was not right to do (It is wrong not matter the religion) but that is an entire different subject “ Why would the followers of a alleged religion of peace go out and kill UN workers over a burning of a book? No burning ink and paper is not a crime (unless you don’t own it) regardless of whether it claims to be the perfect word of the creator of the universe or not.

No it is not from wilders or robert spencer or anyone else it is from the hadith.
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

"So because a small % of Muslims believe in what the extremist are doing you come to the conclusion that someone you do not know because they are Muslims must be somehow trying to take over that is not proof" No i am not saying all Muslims are trying to take over. Though i will ask where are the "moderate Muslims" why are they not at least as angry as i am? Why are they not protesting en masses against the "extremists"? Or calling for them to be deported? Or where are the scholars issuing fatwa’s against the killings in Darfur and the suicide bombings in Israel and Iraq? Or when a person is sentenced to death for writing a work of fiction or when the president of Afghanistan incites a mob after a pastor in Florida burns a Koran? Where is the Muslim outrage about that? Where are the scholars saying this is unacceptable behaviour from the followers of the prophet?

"Not every Muslim is a terrorist that is Defamation of all Muslims and is a crime in most Western countries." I never said all people who call themselves Muslims are terrorists. But terrorism is in the koran and was practiced by Muhammad (who is recorded in one hadith as saying i was made victorious by terror.)

"Never said that I said I believe they can lack morals and can still be just as bad as any religious state if a extremist gets in" Is a secular state immoral or not? No secular does not mean atheist it means religion is kept out of the government.

"Proof of this is what? A few extremist are who are hurting innocent people and contradicting there faith (they kill Muslims also remember)" No you said, you disagree with a secular state not me. Like i say to all the religious people just don’t force your religion (or your religious laws) on me and i have no problem with you.

''Even though before you said a secular state is wrong and a islamic state is the best''

Never said that I said I believe they can lack morals and can still be just as bad as any religious state if a extremist gets in

I was saying that any extremist form of State is bad no mater if it is Christian, Jew, Muslim or no religion at all

You miss understood my post

''So don`t come here lying,''

Read my post you are the one who is lying about what I said I clearly stated what I believed

''if you live in a secular country then you are trying to take over''

Proof of this is what? A few extremist are who are hurting innocent people and contradicting there faith (they kill Muslims also remember)

Not every Muslim is a terrorist that is Defamation of all Muslims and is a crime in most Western countries.

So because a small % of Muslims believe in what the extremist are doing you come to the conclusion that someone you do not know because they are Muslims must be somehow trying to take over that is not proof

''No the muslims immigrants are not forcing their religion on anyone thay just want it implemented on state level. What is this nonsense you are talking?''

Again not all of the immigrants are wanting Islamic Law
Take the time to talk to Muslims

(That means Muslims from all sects not just basing all of your facts on extremist Muslims or only Salafi as the true Muslims)

Not Nonsense if you truly try and understand what I am saying rather making up your mind before even talking to a Muslim

"Don't worry relax no Muslim is out to get you now do some deep breathing. The Muslims are not all coming to somehow take over the world." So you don`t believe islam should be in the state? Even though before you said a secular state is wrong and a islamic state is the best. So don`t come here lying, if you live in a secular country then you are trying to take over. No the muslims immigrants are not forcing their religion on anyone thay just want it implemented on state level. What is this nonsense you are talking?

"Learn the difference between an extremist and a normal everyday Muslim most people can" We already know the difference between "extremist muslim" and "everyday muslim" the former believe in the koran and hadiths the latter don`t. You yourself believe islam should be implemented at state level. "the Pope says the same as what I am saying" Is this the same pope who when he quoted "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" the muslims went on a rampage in palestine fire bombing churches and beheading christians in Iraq. Like Bill Maher said "Islam is a religion of peace and if you disagree we'll fricken cut your head off.”

Those who are ''smart and intelligent '' (self self-proclaimed) can still be filled full of hate and have a personal bias towards a religion and no one person knows about every subject as you could be knowledgeable about one religion but clearly know nothing about another.

As one person is not all Knowledgeable in everything
(They are not God)

Germany was a country who was high in intellect yet still went along with harming the Jews

Moot point if you hate something it does not matter how smart someone claims to be they will hate it regardless of what anyone says

No it was clearly used to hide ones self from Persecution or death ect clearly stated that all religions did this at one stage

(For Example Christians in Roman Era and Muslims in Spain)

What you are talking about has nothing to do what what I am taking about ( Taqiyya) read my post again

Those you are talking about doing these acts are Extremist Muslims.

Are the Muslim woman you are talking about who are in prison or stoned the same as them…the answer is no Muslims are evil yet those you are taking about are also Muslims who are being harmed by extremist Muslims

Learn the difference between an extremist and a normal everyday Muslim most people can

Not nonsense if you learned and knew what I was taking about.

Yes yes Muslim must be liar you tell ''truth'' even though most None Muslims, none bigoted, none radical sane people including the Pope says the same as what I am saying that Most Muslims are not Extremist Muslims you and those on this site only make up a small % of people that say all of Muslims and Islam is evil or from the devil ect

Don't worry relax no Muslim is out to get you now do some deep breathing. The Muslims are not all coming to somehow take over the world.

&gt;Yes, u can talk a lot of nonsense on paper but they are contradictory to the holy book. But in practice, many muslim women are badly treated n beaten by their husbands. The most treacherous thing in Pakistan, Bangladesh n Afghanistan is that the raped victims are charged with adultery instead, punishable by stonning. Go n visit them in the hospitals / prisons in these countrie before u talk about all yr made-up stories. U are using Taqiyya on yrself. Others are not fools to believe u.

And you are just an extremist Christian who is basing your hatred on your own fear and paranoia (See a psychologist to work out your issues with others that are different from you )

Yes John a terrorist that is saying shun violence and all Christians and Jews and Muslims should respect each other and live is peace

Good that you only make up the small % of Christians

You say you are in the army how can someone with your extremist views join the army?
(No surprise with all the massacres and rapes they do to innocents and justify it by saying they are just savages and animals or they brought it on themselves )

You can call me what you like I do not care as I do not need any praise from any extremist no mater what religion they belong to.

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." Book 11, Number 2139 – Abu Dawud

The doctrine of taqiyya was developed at the time of Ja'far al-Sadiq (d. 148 AH/765 AD), the sixth Imamiya Imam. It served to protect Shi'ites when Al-Mansur, the Abbasid caliph, conducted a brutal and oppressive campaign against Alids and their supporters.

Religious dissimulation or Taqiyya while maintaining mental reservation is considered lawful in Shi'ism "in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby".

Shi'is lived mostly as a minority among a frequently-hostile Sunni majority- until the rise of Safavid dynasty. This condition made taqiyya doctrine important to Shi'is.

Taqiyya holds a central place in Twelver Shi'a Islam. This is sometimes explained by the minority position Shi'ites had under the political dominance of Sunni Muslims, requiring them to protect themselves through concealment and dissimulation. In Shi'a legal literature, there is a range of situations in which taqiyya may be used or even required.

For Shi'a Muslims, taqiyya is to conceal their association with their faith when revealing it would result in danger. Taqiyya is done for reasons of safety. For example, a person may fear that he might be killed or harmed if he does not observe taqiyya. In this case, taqiyya is allowed.

However, in some circumstances taqiyya may lead to the death of an innocent person; if so, it is not permissible; it is haraam (forbidden) to kill a human being to save one's own life.

Some Shi'ites, though, advance taqiyya as a form of jihad, a sort of fighting against their adversaries.

Sunni Islam view:

Over the course of time, the majority Sunni Muslims, who maintained political hegemony in most areas of the Islamic world, rarely found it necessary to hide their beliefs.

In the Sunni view, denying your faith under duress is "only at most permitted and not under all circumstances obligatory".

Al-Tabari comments on sura XVI, verse 108 (Tafsir, Bulak 1323, xxiv, 122): "If any one is compelled and professes unbelief with his tongue, while his heart contradicts him, in order to escape his enemies, no blame falls on him, because God takes his servants as their hearts believe."

This verse was revealed after Ammar Yasir was forced by the idolaters of Mecca to recant his faith and denounce the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. Al-Tabari explains that concealing one's faith is only justified if the person is in mortal danger, and even then martyrdom is considered a noble alternative. If threatened, it would be preferable for a Muslim to migrate to a more peaceful place where a person may practice their faith openly, "since God's earth is wide."

No term such as taqiyya is used in Sunni jurisprudence. Protecting one's belief during extreme or exigent circumstances is called idtirar (إضطرار), which translates to "being forced" or "being coerced", and this word is not specific to concealing the faith.

Sunnis believe that it is allowed to deny faith under compulsion, threat, or fear of injury, as long as the heart remains firm in faith, but they also greatly disagree with some of the Shi'a points of view. While one is allowed to consume prohibited or haraam food to protect one's life under the jurisprudence of idtirar, some Sunni sources emphasize the fact that a person who prefers to proclaim their faith in the face of death will have a greater reward than they who deny their faith to save their lives.

For example, in the Sunni commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari, known as the Fath al-Bari, it is stated that:

There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license [to deny one's faith under duress], but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that [instead of choosing death].

It was used to protect Muslims from persecution and death
Your faith (Christian) had this also John K as I have explain what Taqiyya means

Read:

The practice of concealing one's beliefs in dangerous circumstances originates in the Qur'an, which deems blameless those who disguise their beliefs in such cases.

The practice of taqiyya in difficult circumstances is considered legitimate by Muslims of various sects. Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture.

Read about the Shia sects and the mass murders and string up of headless bodies of the martyrs.

Understand what someone is saying before accusing those who disagree with you with an innovation (Salafi do this to all Muslim sects other then Salafi with out understand all of the other Muslims sects information)

Islam and extremist Islam is not the same what you are listing is extremist Islam

Jail Islam is call Prislam which is a violent perversion of what Islam is and is a form of a Wahhabism or Salafi Jihadis (which is what the Taliban and AQ is ) They only make up a small % of Muslims and they hurt and kill other Muslims also

Learn the difference between the two

Most of this is not based on facts but based on Mass Paranoia of ''The Creeping Sharia'' nonsense that has been
said by many who lack knowledge of the difference between Islam and Extremist Islam

Extremist few does not make up a majority nice try trying to pass you fact less nonsense up as facts

Extremist come in all forms (free will to do either good or bad actions)

Alas you do not understand this as you have jumped on the Muslim men are wife beaters band wagon that has been spread for many years by those lying and slandering Islam and Muslims in general (been disproved many times)

"extremist action of a few".—- Just look at the woman patients in most hospitals in ME countries, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Bangladesh n others. Many of these women were badly beaten by their husbands. Many were beaten to dead without being reported.
JSOP = Just say oaf packs of lies without proper investigations. Poor fellow deluding yourself !

Nobody said every man marries children. Where did you get that? We are talking about the Quran which allows men to marry children so for pedophiles Islam is the right place to practice it legally. You have made a very wrong statement about your opponent.

You wrote, “Depending of the term child as an adult in USA is 18 but in a place such as Spain it is 13 (Christian country)”

Irrelevant response. We use the limit for the description of pedophilia. It is below 13. In USA it’s a teen who is 18 not a child in literal sense. They are not considered mature because they are still in educational process but it is actually ok to marry.

You wrote, “Again implying all Muslim men abuse children with no facts (Criminal offence to do in most western countries)”

And again accusing your opponent for something he didn’t do at all. You are a real prejudiced muslim. Read carefully of what I had posted. If you couldn’t understand anything then why did you even respond?

Quote my words that actually show that. If you failed I have the right to call you a liar. Ready?

You wrote, “Not all Muslim Men are paedophiles look to other places to find that”

Nobody thinks like that. You obviously have a reading problem.

You wrote, “Only a small % do this act in the era and many countries do not do this act again tarring all Muslim men on the % of a few doing this act.”

Source please. Child marriage is a widespread phenomenon (millions of girls) according to UNICEF and it involves muslim countries which has Islam as a sanction. Still it didn’t solve the problem and clear Muhammad’s name.

You wrote, “Read the facts of the many Muslim countries and the Law and report the facts not what you think is facts.”

Before you tell me to read why don’t you learn to read properly? You have made fact less posts all this time.

You wrote, “Not Islam or any religion just mankind trying to justify taking power using any excuse to do it”

Wrong, Islam is the real problem in this age because it still hasn’t changed. You didn’t pay any attention at all. You just denied everything you didn’t like. Muhammad is a part of mankind and so did his followers. Mankind created so many things to achieve its ambition including creating political religion.

You wrote, “Creating lies,mass hysteria and paranoia about others who do not agree with them on what they are doing”

You wrote, “Calling out one religion or group of people of doing an act yet turning a blind eye to another or yourself doing the same thing you are accusing others of doing”

Oh, where? Islam is the only one that still follows the original rule and mission from its founder. It still kills in the name of god and uses barbaric law. This is why Islam is the only one. You didn’t read anything eh? Try to read the article here about attacking Islam only.

You wrote, “Those who dislike Islam will try and find any reason to have it destroyed”

Those who dislike bitter truth about Islam will try to deny and give any unclear reason to have it destroyed. It’s easy to make statement like this.

Muslim behavior depends on the degree of their dominance of the society. In countries where Islam is in power, fundamentalist Muslim behavior is approved of.

Here are other factors that follow Muslim dominance:

Dr. Peter Hammond in his book, "Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat":

"When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves –along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam-Mohammed cartoons).

BTW I am a women, I want love first, otherwise its called something else. RAPE!!!!!! Thatz what muslims men do to their women. But muslim men use fake love to go after non-muslim girls out of their reach!!

In the first picture itself, there are good concrete buildings nearby, that are still standing. Maybe people in there would have escaped. The thatched ones built with mud and clay instead of cement are the ones that have been pulled down.

Allah said, "from that variety of people you have to bring them in to one umbrella called Islam, if refuse, kill them or make them dhimmi".

Nothing is special from stating the obvious, kid. In many occasions, Allah stated what the eyes could see. Making different tribes was not going to make people know each other instantly. It would create war, division, and racism first. If Allah want humans to know each other well he should make it one race with one characteristic so that chaos can be prevented.

People who have different behavior, feeling, culture or identity is formed by their upbringing, their group. These groups will create different "ism" and will clash with each other. It's not about how the people behave but how about Islamic behavior should be.

When you marry your wifes you have the rights to treat them as property. You had bought their sex and service. This is what Allah has in mind, not people's feeling.

Nope, you are married for many reasons be it wealth, duty, or forced by situation and in Islam, love is not there.

Yeah, so sweet until all his wives hated and fought each other for this old man (guess what, for wealth and share too). You can't love many women and child girl, can you? Love between husband and wife involve loyalty. It will futile to call it love it you cheat or have someone else in mind. If you call it duty, it will be more appropriate, like feeding your pet, slave, or employee.

Marrying younger women eh? How about marrying children? Do you know the difference?

Did you read about the verse which forbade Muhammad’s wives to remarry? Do you know that women in Islam can’t have bargaining point when faced with this situation because of obvious rule? Don’t tell me you don’t know it.

The thing is, muslims still follow the rule made by 7th century Arab in this age, others don’t. Yeah, they look like monster when they practice Islam and Islam creates the most problem in this era as a religion.

Irrelevant response and another mistake, kiddo. I don't and can't reply comment anytime I want and you can see that in the time indicator. On the contrary, I think it is you who have it. You are so full of it lately.

Know, back to my original post. What did I talk about? Care to answer it? 😉

See? You are running away while accusing others for running. You are making irrelevant response here just like your kind. I didn't talk about Christian who were accused of not following Allah. As a matter of fact, I have 4 comparative questions that prove Muhammad and Allah actually followed Christianity. :p

Before you write "change" I suggest you bring evidence, like 1 sec interval for just 2 different bibles. I told you not to run, right? :p

Oh, yes you are. Changing bible every second and the absent of alcohol in your god's mind is just few examples.

See? You are confused again. When did I talk about Palestine? Palestinians don't use only stones, but rockets, bombs, and human bodies. I talked about the general muslims throughout history including Muhammad.

The Quran says it is a clear book to understand, so Muslims needing to reinterpret it to make it sound good to a Western audience is bidah (innovation), which the Quran strongly condemns, except when done to deceive Muslims.

>Rich, old muslim men married many wives, That left the poor young muslim men with no wife. So they have nothing to do but to demonstate violently in the streets in ME countries about the unfair systems n about their govts' handling of the economies that did not provide them with jobs..Many also went into jihad in frustation.

JSOP and other Muslim- The common trait when someone say something on Quran that is really from that book, you say" We really need to understand" Like we are devoid of understanding. You accuse people who are very smart and intelligent to not understand.

BTW why don't you use quotation from Quran to prove, instead of a blank statements. And then I will quote from the same Quran what the women are treated like. Don't judge Quran by the action of few good Muslims.

Marrying of a younger woman was done by the Christians also and the man takes care of the woman with love and money and the woman takes care of the house and the man when he is old. (When Christians had more morals then they do these days )

Did you read about allowing of woman to remarry.
Man treating Woman as equal and not to harm them
Woman should be treated like a queen

Women in the west particularly Christian women don't have the constant fear of her husband bringing her a suitable other women to share her man. Women in west have the backing of the scriptures plus the law , One man for one woman!! People who cheat on there spouse (man or woman) you will find plenty. But again you have choice, to walk out, to divorce. It is not to stone the women and flog the man of infidelity. And what does muslims do, cover up the infidelity and lust and give it the name of marriage. Call a spade a spade !! Don't call it something else. When it cheating, adultery, fornication even in west or east it is cheating, adultery, fornication.

Nonie Darwish spoke of the insecurity Egyptian women feel even on their first marriage because right there on the marriage license are the blank spaces for 3 more wives, and so the women live in a sense of insecurity never knowing when their husbands will fill up the other spaces with their new wives.

Muslim marital behavior both in polygamy and pedophilia has caused many dysfunctions, primarily affecting the lack of available brides for young men and sending them in frustration to the jihad.

Pathetic excuse. You should be ashamed of your response. IF YOU SO WANT TO PROTECT WOMEN< THEN SPEND SOME MONEY< BUILD HER A HOUSE AND FIND A SUITABLE MATE FOR HER> YOU DON"T NEED TO MARRY !! TO PROTECT. You hide you sins behind the shameful curtain of Islam.

FIRST WIFE Accepts!! TRUE TOLARANCE MY FOOT!!
DO you even know how much it would hurt her if she truly loved her husba