They have little reason to really crack down on people churning their cards, because they account for such an insignificant portion of their entire customer base. They're making money hand over foot via transaction charges, interest fees, marketing, etc.

I'm not sure that answers the duplication question.
That answers "why cards", and why a bonus, but not multiples per customer.

If customers have A card (or a few) from a charge card company, then they already can "swipe" to have their own convenience and also to give the card company their swipe fee... and also hopefully the interest on charges not paid off.
If they want to allow a customer the chance to "carry an even higher balance" via multiple cards, why not just increase the credit limit similar to the combined total?

I could also understand customers wanting a second back-up card in case of loss/theft/block, etc.
So perhaps 2 per customer (someone may want a duplicate of the exact perks, etc.).

But why over and over, each time with the big points?
What's in it for the card company, vs. being as sure as they can that more individuals have cards, and perhaps higher credit limits (instead of multiple cards, each with bonus)?

RM

Competition. If I've already earned my sign-up bonus on credit card #1, I'm on to cc #2 for another fat sign-up bonus. I'll never use cc #1 again (or only very little, and perhaps never again if I cancel to avoid an annual fee). So, cc #1 falls by the wayside while I focus on charging stuff to cc #2 -- at least, until I've earned the bonus. Then, I'm on to card #3, and all my spending goes there. And so on ...

np81 wrote:They have little reason to really crack down on people churning their cards, because they account for such an insignificant portion of their entire customer base. They're making money hand over foot via transaction charges, interest fees, marketing, etc.

This makes sense.

Are there any numbers about the percentage of cards-with-bonus that are issued to churners (some sort of definition) vs. those who've never had that branded card before, or say, not for x years?
This is what I was after, I guess, at least in general, if not actual numbers.
(If so, it's probably proprietary, I suppose.)

I know that most people don't churn or even use points much (if at all).
I guess I don't realize how very tiny is the group who do so regularly, especially the churning(?)
I keep noticing and reading all about this stuff.
Selective perception at it's finest

ResearchMed wrote:Are there any numbers about the percentage of cards-with-bonus that are issued to churners (some sort of definition) vs. those who've never had that branded card before, or say, not for x years?

I can't recall ever seeing anything like this, though I think it'd be an interesting read for sure if it was available somewhere.

Jack FFR1846 wrote:This week, S&S's promotion is 5X gas points on Sears gift cards. Any gift cards not in the promo get zip. You're certainly right that we would waive the price rollback of the Citi double cash, which we usually use or the extended warranty that I know AMEX does (which I have in the sock drawer). To be honest, I'm a big do-it-yourselfer and have found too often that some service people are less competent than I am. I'd rather buy a part on Amazon for $10 and put it in myself than use the warranty. I'm also a realist and expect Sears to be out of business before an extended warranty would end.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. So on the weekly circular they may have promotions on certain types of gift cards that will earn gas points? Makes sense. Will have to look out for this. And do they ever have them on Visa/Mastercard gift cards or store cards only?

One thing I never get, likely because I'm not sure of all the various less obvious ways that banks make money - is why they care about *what* you buy with the card, for example - many (most?) don't pay points on purchases for cash equivalents? don't they get their cut either way or is it that the merchant doesn't pay out to them on these transactions?

How many retired people does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Only one, but he takes all day.

Barefootgirl wrote:One thing I never get, likely because I'm not sure of all the various less obvious ways that banks make money - is why they care about *what* you buy with the card, for example - many (most?) don't pay points on purchases for cash equivalents? don't they get their cut either way or is it that the merchant doesn't pay out to them on these transactions?

Marketing, first they are collecting data on what you buy and selling that data off to marketing research companies. Second not paying points or whatever cash equivalents is an attempt to stop the abuse of the system. Paying points for certain categories is a marketing ploy...

np81 wrote:They have little reason to really crack down on people churning their cards, because they account for such an insignificant portion of their entire customer base. They're making money hand over foot via transaction charges, interest fees, marketing, etc.

If that was true, there wouldn't be a 5/24 rule!

Last year Citi asked for a copy of my tax returns for a credit card! I have excellent credit (820+) and income- they just want to eliminate people that open and close accounts and make them jump through hoops as it costs them money.

Do you know how much it costs Chase to give 100k points? That is $1000 in cash you can get. If they make 2% on your purchases you would have to spend $200k for them to recover the bonus. I doubt many churners are paying interest on their cards and they don't keep them open long enough for the issuer to recover the bonus.

There are 24 pages in this topic alone and entire website dedicated to gaming credit cards!

np81 wrote:They have little reason to really crack down on people churning their cards, because they account for such an insignificant portion of their entire customer base. They're making money hand over foot via transaction charges, interest fees, marketing, etc.

If that was true, there wouldn't be a 5/24 rule!

Last year Citi asked for a copy of my tax returns for a credit card! I have excellent credit (820+) and income- they just want to eliminate people that open and close accounts and make them jump through hoops as it costs them money.

Do you know how much it costs Chase to give 100k points? That is $1000 in cash you can get. If they make 2% on your purchases you would have to spend $200k for them to recover the bonus. I doubt many churners are paying interest on their cards and they don't keep them open long enough for the issuer to recover the bonus.

Point being, they could be doing much more to prevent churning entirely. If all card users started churning, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd eliminate every avenue for churning entirely.

They don't care about 5/24 or other rules because once you exhaust all of your bonus opportunities, you're done.

This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

They don't care about 5/24 or other rules because once you exhaust all of your bonus opportunities, you're done.

This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sallie mae rewards is getting rid of their 5% gas, grocery, and bookstore card. I'm switching over to the USAA limitless which gives 2.5% cash back everything. I also have discover and chase for the 5% rotating categories.

They don't care about 5/24 or other rules because once you exhaust all of your bonus opportunities, you're done.

This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

They don't care about 5/24 or other rules because once you exhaust all of your bonus opportunities, you're done.

This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

They don't care about 5/24 or other rules because once you exhaust all of your bonus opportunities, you're done.

This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

Yep. I concentrate on the high value bonuses. I try not to go after anything less than equivalent to $500. There aren't that many in that category.

Barefootgirl wrote:
This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

Yep. I concentrate on the high value bonuses. I try not to go after anything less than equivalent to $500. There aren't that many in that category.

I think there are a ton in that category, I have about the same threshold and between my wife and I we've opened 40+ cards in the past couple years (most of them in my name). I am nowhere near out of cards to apply for.

Just tried to get something, anything, from Chase for keeping my CSP card. I've read they have been stingy recently and it proved true for me. I've had the card for one year, AF posted a couple of weeks ago, $13K spend in the year. Only thing they offered is a downgrade to a no fee card. Oh well.

BeneIRA wrote:
Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

Yep. I concentrate on the high value bonuses. I try not to go after anything less than equivalent to $500. There aren't that many in that category.

I think there are a ton in that category, I have about the same threshold and between my wife and I we've opened 40+ cards in the past couple years (most of them in my name). I am nowhere near out of cards to apply for.

I guess it depends how you value bonuses and what is useful to you. I don't really use/need hotel rewards so I don't do those. I'm curious what these 40 cards were with such big bonuses.

travellight wrote:
I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

Yep. I concentrate on the high value bonuses. I try not to go after anything less than equivalent to $500. There aren't that many in that category.

I think there are a ton in that category, I have about the same threshold and between my wife and I we've opened 40+ cards in the past couple years (most of them in my name). I am nowhere near out of cards to apply for.

I guess it depends how you value bonuses and what is useful to you. I don't really use/need hotel rewards so I don't do those. I'm curious what these 40 cards were with such big bonuses.

I can find a use for just about any points/miles. I'm extremely flexible and want to go pretty much everywhere. Lets see... From Chase I've had CSP, BA, Fairmont, Hyatt, IHG, United, Southwest. From Amex I've had the personal Plat, Ameriprise Plat, Biz Plat, 2x SPG personal, 2x SPG Biz, 2x Hilton Surpass, 2x no AF Hilton, 1x SimplyCash. From Citi I've had 6x AA Plat, AA Biz, Hilton Reserve, no AF Hilton. From BOA I've had 2x Alaska and Merrill +. From Barclays I've had 2x Wyndham, 2x Aviator, 2x Arrival +. From Capital One I've had Venture, 2x Spark Cash, Spark Miles. I've had 2x Discover It and Discover It Miles. Wells Fargo 5x card. That's 47 I think, and I may be missing some. Some of them were cashback or for reasons other than a large signup bonus though. But most of them had greater than $500 value signup bonuses.

A guy has canceled a credit card but forgot to transfer a recurring payment to another card. The payee charged the card several months after it was closed, the charge went through, and the bank did not notify the guy about the payment. He found out about it when he learned that his account was 30 days over-due. Now he's dealing with the damage including ongoing correspondence with the bank and correcting his record at three major credit reporting agencies.

The guy's recommendation is to transfer recurring payments at the time of closing a card. My opinion is that one should always authorize minimum payments from your bank. If a credit-card bank makes a mistake and allows a recurring charge or a fraudulent charge on a closed card, the minimum payment option protects one from a long and painful correction process.

Victoria

Last edited by VictoriaF on Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. |
Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

They don't care about 5/24 or other rules because once you exhaust all of your bonus opportunities, you're done.

This is the game changer...once you've run through all the major bank cards, you are done churning for bonuses - left with only waiting for new cards w/bonuses or watching for special promotions. Outside of that, regular spend which brings the game back to regular road warriors, who typically have been either reimbursed by their employers or self-employed with business expenses. There is reselling, but even there, without a bonus, it becomes a bit of work and you need to consider the value of your time.

I've not been in this long enough to know whether it shares any similarities to other business cycles - i.e. when banks see fewer new cards, less spend, will they loosen and re-ignite another cycle?

Keep in mind that is just American Express's rule. In that same vein, they are cracking down on bonus matches. If you applied a month ago for the Starwood Preferred Guest card for 25,000 bonus points and now see the 35,000 bonus point offer, they won't match it.

Yes and no. There are still some churnable bonuses such as Alaska Airlines, the Citi offers without the 24 months language, and Chase if it has been 24 months since you last got the bonus, but banks are cracking down across the board. It seems the clear trend is worse for the churner, but there is some of what you are referring to. Typically for travel cards, the slow times is when we see better offers. After summer, look for expanded bonus offers. It is no coincidence that the Delta 70,000 mile bonus happened in January when travel is slower and not in the summer. We have seen some effects of competition such as American Express sending out more targeted offers for the Amex Platinum such as 50,000 and up bonuses and offering the 5X cash back on airfare when previously it was practically useless as an ongoing card. It will be interesting to see if any card tries to compete with Chase for travel card supremacy.

I am finding very few churnable bonuses left. I am way out of the Chase world due to 5/24.... even opened Chase private client and deposited over 250k and got turned down for CSR. I have never had SPG and applied for that and was turned down. Tried SPG business and was told it needed further review, probably a rejection. My prior Amex was over a month ago. I am going to try for the Merrill Edge card next and B of A's Travel REwards card. I also tried Alaska and was told pending review; I last got it over 4 months ago. Maybe I'll have to hit up Barclay's Aviator card; last got it 2 months ago.

Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

Yeah, it's just that I am getting ready to spend about 12k and want to make use of the spend. I am replacing carpet in my house and will pull the trigger on it with home depot as soon as I can line up a card or two with bonuses.

A guy has canceled a credit card but forgot to transfer a recurring payment to another card. The payee charged the card several months after it was closed, the charge went through, and the bank did not notify the guy about the payment. He found out about it when he learned that his account was 30 days over-due. Now he's dealing with the damage including ongoing correspondence with the bank and correcting his record at three major credit reporting agencies.

The guy's recommendation is to transfer recurring payments at the time of closing a card. My opinion is that one should always authorize minimum payments from your bank. If a credit-card bank makes a mistake and allows a recurring charge or a fraudulent charge on a closed card, the minimum payment option protects one from a long and painful correction process.

Victoria

Part of my ritual is to make a list of all my recurring payments cards and transfer it if/when I close the card. I make note of it when I calendar the date for closure of the card that I need to change the recurring payment as well. I also do autopay on all cards for full payments each month. My last safety net for this is that I use mint dot com and it would have notified me of the first missed payment so I could call right away and manage it.

Drew777 wrote:
Sometimes you just have to cool it on the new inquiries on a while and then you can pick up some more cards again. There is also Citi, Capital One, US Bank, etc. US Bank won't approve you with a lot of recent inquiries though.

Yep. I concentrate on the high value bonuses. I try not to go after anything less than equivalent to $500. There aren't that many in that category.

I think there are a ton in that category, I have about the same threshold and between my wife and I we've opened 40+ cards in the past couple years (most of them in my name). I am nowhere near out of cards to apply for.

I guess it depends how you value bonuses and what is useful to you. I don't really use/need hotel rewards so I don't do those. I'm curious what these 40 cards were with such big bonuses.

I can find a use for just about any points/miles. I'm extremely flexible and want to go pretty much everywhere. Lets see... From Chase I've had CSP, BA, Fairmont, Hyatt, IHG, United, Southwest. From Amex I've had the personal Plat, Ameriprise Plat, Biz Plat, 2x SPG personal, 2x SPG Biz, 2x Hilton Surpass, 2x no AF Hilton, 1x SimplyCash. From Citi I've had 6x AA Plat, AA Biz, Hilton Reserve, no AF Hilton. From BOA I've had 2x Alaska and Merrill +. From Barclays I've had 2x Wyndham, 2x Aviator, 2x Arrival +. From Capital One I've had Venture, 2x Spark Cash, Spark Miles. I've had 2x Discover It and Discover It Miles. Wells Fargo 5x card. That's 47 I think, and I may be missing some. Some of them were cashback or for reasons other than a large signup bonus though. But most of them had greater than $500 value signup bonuses.

michaeljc70 wrote:
Yep. I concentrate on the high value bonuses. I try not to go after anything less than equivalent to $500. There aren't that many in that category.

I think there are a ton in that category, I have about the same threshold and between my wife and I we've opened 40+ cards in the past couple years (most of them in my name). I am nowhere near out of cards to apply for.

I guess it depends how you value bonuses and what is useful to you. I don't really use/need hotel rewards so I don't do those. I'm curious what these 40 cards were with such big bonuses.

I can find a use for just about any points/miles. I'm extremely flexible and want to go pretty much everywhere. Lets see... From Chase I've had CSP, BA, Fairmont, Hyatt, IHG, United, Southwest. From Amex I've had the personal Plat, Ameriprise Plat, Biz Plat, 2x SPG personal, 2x SPG Biz, 2x Hilton Surpass, 2x no AF Hilton, 1x SimplyCash. From Citi I've had 6x AA Plat, AA Biz, Hilton Reserve, no AF Hilton. From BOA I've had 2x Alaska and Merrill +. From Barclays I've had 2x Wyndham, 2x Aviator, 2x Arrival +. From Capital One I've had Venture, 2x Spark Cash, Spark Miles. I've had 2x Discover It and Discover It Miles. Wells Fargo 5x card. That's 47 I think, and I may be missing some. Some of them were cashback or for reasons other than a large signup bonus though. But most of them had greater than $500 value signup bonuses.

What about the 24/5 rule? 6 Chase AA in two years?

You mean Citi? There were loopholes to get around the restrictions, like the World Elite conversion loophole, and targeted mailers and links that omit the 24-month verbiage. I have gotten 8 Citi cards myself in the last 18 months.

Drew777 wrote:
I think there are a ton in that category, I have about the same threshold and between my wife and I we've opened 40+ cards in the past couple years (most of them in my name). I am nowhere near out of cards to apply for.

I guess it depends how you value bonuses and what is useful to you. I don't really use/need hotel rewards so I don't do those. I'm curious what these 40 cards were with such big bonuses.

I can find a use for just about any points/miles. I'm extremely flexible and want to go pretty much everywhere. Lets see... From Chase I've had CSP, BA, Fairmont, Hyatt, IHG, United, Southwest. From Amex I've had the personal Plat, Ameriprise Plat, Biz Plat, 2x SPG personal, 2x SPG Biz, 2x Hilton Surpass, 2x no AF Hilton, 1x SimplyCash. From Citi I've had 6x AA Plat, AA Biz, Hilton Reserve, no AF Hilton. From BOA I've had 2x Alaska and Merrill +. From Barclays I've had 2x Wyndham, 2x Aviator, 2x Arrival +. From Capital One I've had Venture, 2x Spark Cash, Spark Miles. I've had 2x Discover It and Discover It Miles. Wells Fargo 5x card. That's 47 I think, and I may be missing some. Some of them were cashback or for reasons other than a large signup bonus though. But most of them had greater than $500 value signup bonuses.

What about the 24/5 rule? 6 Chase AA in two years?

You mean Citi? There were loopholes to get around the restrictions, like the World Elite conversion loophole, and targeted mailers and links that omit the 24-month verbiage. I have gotten 8 Citi cards myself in the last 18 months.

michaeljc70 wrote:
I guess it depends how you value bonuses and what is useful to you. I don't really use/need hotel rewards so I don't do those. I'm curious what these 40 cards were with such big bonuses.

I can find a use for just about any points/miles. I'm extremely flexible and want to go pretty much everywhere. Lets see... From Chase I've had CSP, BA, Fairmont, Hyatt, IHG, United, Southwest. From Amex I've had the personal Plat, Ameriprise Plat, Biz Plat, 2x SPG personal, 2x SPG Biz, 2x Hilton Surpass, 2x no AF Hilton, 1x SimplyCash. From Citi I've had 6x AA Plat, AA Biz, Hilton Reserve, no AF Hilton. From BOA I've had 2x Alaska and Merrill +. From Barclays I've had 2x Wyndham, 2x Aviator, 2x Arrival +. From Capital One I've had Venture, 2x Spark Cash, Spark Miles. I've had 2x Discover It and Discover It Miles. Wells Fargo 5x card. That's 47 I think, and I may be missing some. Some of them were cashback or for reasons other than a large signup bonus though. But most of them had greater than $500 value signup bonuses.

What about the 24/5 rule? 6 Chase AA in two years?

You mean Citi? There were loopholes to get around the restrictions, like the World Elite conversion loophole, and targeted mailers and links that omit the 24-month verbiage. I have gotten 8 Citi cards myself in the last 18 months.

What is the World Elite conversion loophole?

Last year, all Citi AAdvantage cards were being sent as "World" cards (shown on the back of the card itself). Once Citi upgraded those "World" cards to "World Elite", they sent you a brand new card (same card number). It was this process, and likely something in CIti's system, that allowed you to apply for another Citi AAdvantage card - with or without the then 18-month language about not having any other open cards - and you would still receive the bonus for it. I churned through six Citi AA cards myself using this method, before the loophole stopped. All Citi AA cards are now coming as World Elites.

I assume the "2x" for various Amex cards means that you and your wife each got the card. I've already received the Amex SPG bonus (several years ago) but still haven't spent it. The current up to 35k bonus sounds pretty nice, and I was thinking of suggesting to SO to apply for the card (assuming I cannot). But, he's not so keen to play the cc game, so it would be better if I can keep him out of things. I would consider getting the Amex SPG Biz for myself, though my understanding is Amex scrutinizes financials more closely than others.

I'm also a bit unsure about the SPG card in light of the Marriott merger. Not quite sure how to evaluate that aspect.

I assume the "2x" for various Amex cards means that you and your wife each got the card. I've already received the Amex SPG bonus (several years ago) but still haven't spent it. The current up to 35k bonus sounds pretty nice, and I was thinking of suggesting to SO to apply for the card (assuming I cannot). But, he's not so keen to play the cc game, so it would be better if I can keep him out of things. I would consider getting the Amex SPG Biz for myself, though my understanding is Amex scrutinizes financials more closely than others.

I'm also a bit unsure about the SPG card in light of the Marriott merger. Not quite sure how to evaluate that aspect.

Yes, my wife got those cards. However, you can get the bonus for multiples of the same Amex card using different business as long as you use different EINs. It's extremely easy to get approved for Amex business cards. Most of mine have been auto approved. I even went through a financial review with Amex and was fine. Some people just panic and close their accounts when Amex tells them they're under a financial review, which is the worst thing you can do. As long as you cooperate it will be fine, they won't close your accounts. Just don't lie about your income (or business revenue). You can be approved with $0 business income. And if anything the Marriott merger makes SPG MORE valuable, not less.

I do NOT read everything. I scan titles, expand those that seem relevant, and read them completely only if they appear useful. Thus, the whole exercise takes from 5 minutes to 45 minutes, depending on how many days have passed since my last review and whether there is something directly relevant to me.

For example, there were two recent pieces of information that I had not sought but that may be handy in the future:
1. Global Entry should be renewed well in advance of its expiration, and the renewal can be started 1 year earlier.
2. If a flight is delayed, one can change to a better flight without paying a change fee.

Victoria

WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. |
Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

Note that almost all of these blogs get paid by the banks to advertise, receive payouts if you use their links to apply for cards, and sometimes promote non-optimal approaches to this hobby. The most serious offenders of sellouts are millionmilesecerets and thepointsguy. Anyone who follows this hobby closely pretty much ignores those sites these days.

I get my entire dose of information from reddit and doctor of credit - whom is the only blogger on the list above that does not take payments to advertise and is among the best at providing simple, straight forward explanations for the details of each card/offer/promo posted.

sharpjm wrote:I get my entire dose of information from reddit and doctor of credit - whom is the only blogger on the list above that does not take payments to advertise and is among the best at providing simple, straight forward explanations for the details of each card/offer/promo posted.

Note that almost all of these blogs get paid by the banks to advertise, receive payouts if you use their links to apply for cards, and sometimes promote non-optimal approaches to this hobby. The most serious offenders of sellouts are millionmilesecerets and thepointsguy. Anyone who follows this hobby closely pretty much ignores those sites these days.

I get my entire dose of information from reddit and doctor of credit - whom is the only blogger on the list above that does not take payments to advertise and is among the best at providing simple, straight forward explanations for the details of each card/offer/promo posted.

The bloggers are paid by advertising which motivates them to maintain these blogs. Some of their recommendations are sub-optimal, and that's why I read six instead of one. People follow the travel/credit cards hobby at different levels of involvement. For me, it's easier to quickly review blogs and seek more detailed information elsewhere if I want to get a new credit card or purchase a complex itinerary.

Victoria

WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. |
Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

I assume the "2x" for various Amex cards means that you and your wife each got the card. I've already received the Amex SPG bonus (several years ago) but still haven't spent it. The current up to 35k bonus sounds pretty nice, and I was thinking of suggesting to SO to apply for the card (assuming I cannot). But, he's not so keen to play the cc game, so it would be better if I can keep him out of things. I would consider getting the Amex SPG Biz for myself, though my understanding is Amex scrutinizes financials more closely than others.

I'm also a bit unsure about the SPG card in light of the Marriott merger. Not quite sure how to evaluate that aspect.

Yes, my wife got those cards. However, you can get the bonus for multiples of the same Amex card using different business as long as you use different EINs. It's extremely easy to get approved for Amex business cards. Most of mine have been auto approved. I even went through a financial review with Amex and was fine. Some people just panic and close their accounts when Amex tells them they're under a financial review, which is the worst thing you can do. As long as you cooperate it will be fine, they won't close your accounts. Just don't lie about your income (or business revenue). You can be approved with $0 business income. And if anything the Marriott merger makes SPG MORE valuable, not less.

Thanks, Drew. As I have yet to apply for Amex SPG Business I thought I might do that, but the bonus terms aren't attractive when I checked now: same as for the personal card but with (considerably) higher minimum spends. Ugh, maybe I'll have to ask SO to apply after all.

Good to know you think Marriott merger stands to benefit SPG. Presumably, it will increase hotel options, but my concern was about possible devaluation of Starpoints.

Interesting about the different EINs. In my case, I have not legally formed my business venture(s), so according to the IRS website I need to wait to obtain an EIN.

rjbraun wrote:Interesting about the different EINs. In my case, I have not legally formed my business venture(s), so according to the IRS website I need to wait to obtain an EIN.

I'm not sure if this is the case with Amex, but Citi (confirmed personally) and a few others allow you to use your SSN in lieu of an EIN for a business card.

AMEX is the same, you use your SSN. I have a few business cards with them.

IF one uses an EIN vs SSN, is there a way to combine the awards/points with those accumulated using a personal card?

We never got a credit card for our LLC, because we assumed that our brand new business would need to have its own credit check, and there'd obviously be no history.
It's probably moot now (pretty much shutting down operations so we can travel more, but we might start up something online), but for the future, is this not correct?

With an LLC name and a separate EIN, they could use one's personal credit history?

misterno wrote:I owned all the credit cards that is possible to a human being in the US.

I churned them and swallowed the points, miles cash and all

Now I came to a point where none of the credit cards are approving me.

Credit scores over 800, income over 175K and yet I can not get any credit cards

The message says "too many credit card applications in the last 1 year" or something like that

So what is the work around on this issue?

Patience.

Read carefully the "rules" about recent opening (or closing!) of accounts, etc.
Just wait, and where they said "in the last year", then wait a full year, and see if things re-start.
And take it slowly.

I assume the "2x" for various Amex cards means that you and your wife each got the card. I've already received the Amex SPG bonus (several years ago) but still haven't spent it. The current up to 35k bonus sounds pretty nice, and I was thinking of suggesting to SO to apply for the card (assuming I cannot). But, he's not so keen to play the cc game, so it would be better if I can keep him out of things. I would consider getting the Amex SPG Biz for myself, though my understanding is Amex scrutinizes financials more closely than others.

I'm also a bit unsure about the SPG card in light of the Marriott merger. Not quite sure how to evaluate that aspect.

Yes, my wife got those cards. However, you can get the bonus for multiples of the same Amex card using different business as long as you use different EINs. It's extremely easy to get approved for Amex business cards. Most of mine have been auto approved. I even went through a financial review with Amex and was fine. Some people just panic and close their accounts when Amex tells them they're under a financial review, which is the worst thing you can do. As long as you cooperate it will be fine, they won't close your accounts. Just don't lie about your income (or business revenue). You can be approved with $0 business income. And if anything the Marriott merger makes SPG MORE valuable, not less.

Thanks, Drew. As I have yet to apply for Amex SPG Business I thought I might do that, but the bonus terms aren't attractive when I checked now: same as for the personal card but with (considerably) higher minimum spends. Ugh, maybe I'll have to ask SO to apply after all.

Good to know you think Marriott merger stands to benefit SPG. Presumably, it will increase hotel options, but my concern was about possible devaluation of Starpoints.

Interesting about the different EINs. In my case, I have not legally formed my business venture(s), so according to the IRS website I need to wait to obtain an EIN.

The SPG Business is slightly better due to the Sheraton lounge access. I use that a good bit for free breakfast, snacks, drinks, etc.

So far the merger has increased the value of SPG points since they're transferrable to Marriott at a 1:3 rate. Now you have access to Marriott vacation packages and the ability to transfer points to airlines not available to SPG. As far as the EIN, you can obtain one as a sole proprietor.

rjbraun wrote:Interesting about the different EINs. In my case, I have not legally formed my business venture(s), so according to the IRS website I need to wait to obtain an EIN.

I'm not sure if this is the case with Amex, but Citi (confirmed personally) and a few others allow you to use your SSN in lieu of an EIN for a business card.

AMEX is the same, you use your SSN. I have a few business cards with them.

IF one uses an EIN vs SSN, is there a way to combine the awards/points with those accumulated using a personal card?

We never got a credit card for our LLC, because we assumed that our brand new business would need to have its own credit check, and there'd obviously be no history.
It's probably moot now (pretty much shutting down operations so we can travel more, but we might start up something online), but for the future, is this not correct?

With an LLC name and a separate EIN, they could use one's personal credit history?

Thanks.

RM

Yes, you can combine the points. They'll just use your personal credit report. With all business credit cards you're still going to have to guarantee them personally anyway.

rjbraun wrote:Interesting about the different EINs. In my case, I have not legally formed my business venture(s), so according to the IRS website I need to wait to obtain an EIN.

I'm not sure if this is the case with Amex, but Citi (confirmed personally) and a few others allow you to use your SSN in lieu of an EIN for a business card.

AMEX is the same, you use your SSN. I have a few business cards with them.

IF one uses an EIN vs SSN, is there a way to combine the awards/points with those accumulated using a personal card?

We never got a credit card for our LLC, because we assumed that our brand new business would need to have its own credit check, and there'd obviously be no history.
It's probably moot now (pretty much shutting down operations so we can travel more, but we might start up something online), but for the future, is this not correct?

With an LLC name and a separate EIN, they could use one's personal credit history?

Thanks.

RM

Yes, you can combine the points. They'll just use your personal credit report. With all business credit cards you're still going to have to guarantee them personally anyway.

Thanks.

We'll give this a try.

Yeah, we know that even with the "LLC", we weren't ever able to shield any liability anyway, because we had to have the mortgages (vacation rental cabins) in our own names. The brand new LLC wouldn't have any credit history for a mortgage approval (except maybe for hard money, which we wouldn't want).
And once we personally were on the hook in any way, "poof" goes possible liability protection. (We had a huge umbrella policy, given there'd be children and elderly, etc., and stairs inside and out, and balconies, and elevated patios, not to mention carpeting that could come loose unexpectedly, or ice in the winter or whatever, and that big hot tub... risks everywhere. (Fortunately, never any problem.)

DH does a lot of consulting, so right there could be a real "business name" if desired.

And I could open another LLC for my own consulting, even though I haven't done any for a couple of years?
It really wouldn't matter if there were no financial records, no active bank account, no credit history for the EIN?

The only "real" business accounts we opened were banking (of course) and also one to process remote charge card payments.
But not credit cards.
We just used our own, given that we were fully responsible for all debts anyway.
(And HA! We thought, "Great, we'll get the awards points this way, using our personal cards." So we never really looked into any business cards. We also weren't "into" opening accounts and accumulating points that way, until just recently. Silly us.)