theCryptofishist wrote:And how many mutants are even accessible to chairs?

I have only seen one and I built it. Regretfully some of the controls are so touchy that I am the only person who can drive it. I also regret that for the last two years I barely drove it at all and never got to use it for it's intended purpose. I was too busy fixing other peoples broken stuff. If some of you are thinking of building accessible mutants be sure to make it easy for anyone to drive so you can hand it off to a responsible individual for a time. I found a serviceable wheel chair lift on craigslist for $100. So accessibility is fairly cheap. If you live in the pacific north west and need a wheel chair lift for your mutant vehicle get in touch with me. I will give it to you. My mutant is taking a year off or may even be sold and I would like to contribute to furthering playa accessibility.

I really recommend golf carts as disabled vehicles. Yah people give you a little shit for driving around but it gets you out in the elements and you get to hear the pulse of the city. Gas is the way to go.

Edit after reading another thread. Vehicle selection is entirely guided by what you already have on hand or your ability to make/purchase and your skills/goals in pulling that off. I have had a good experience loaning my golf cart to a camp mate and so that is why I am pro golf cart.

Black Rock City Welding and Repair. The Night Time Warming Station.

Card Carrying Member BRCCP.

When you pass the 4th "bridge out!" sign; the flaming death is all yours.-Knowmad-

I'm punking out an old lawn mower for my ride.. This old hip can't push the cluch.. So am adding a hand cluch.. A small platform on the back for a chair to carry Grandfather.. It could easly load and carry a electric and seat one other person.. It's not that damn hard to make it work.. The mower cost $160 (Craig'slist).. The rest was stripping it down, cleaning and paint.. Then the fun of decorating it with all sorts of shit.. This is an art fest.. If you can't do the work yourself,, It wouldn't hurt to ask for help.. So far on this thread I have heard a lot of bowing up about other people not providing "you"..

Captain Goddammit wrote:You've been to the burn before... did you see people, other than law enforcement, driving cars around the playa?

Almost none, you're right. But I've never seen anyone try it with a walker either. And the very few power chairs I've seen looked broken down with someone rying to make them run again. A manual chair would be impossible to use by oneself.

If my husband was to ride on your MV would you be prepared to get him to an outhouse when he needed it, give him the considerable time he'd need to use it and not drive off and leave him stranded? Would you be willing to take him back to his camp when his energy runs out long before yours? I doubt if you or any other MV would be interested in doing that once or twice a day, every day.

Do you suggest because he has special needs he should be banned?

Duck and cover.Unless you say exactly what they want to hear, you'd better be prepared for a lot of crap. I was told in so many words, that any disability, even a missing toe, is just as bad. Does this mean that anyone with a HP placard could/should be able to drive on the playa with a passenger vehicle, or is it going to be up to the DMV to judge the degree of disabilty. I can hear the cries to the DMV now, no matter what they do---"that's not fair".
If they allow any car with a person displaying a placard to drive, then every camp will now have get a driver with this placard. No more mutant vehicles required, just a Camp Gimp.

Mary Lou, everyone is trying to gently tell you that you can't do this. I know you WANT to but it's not appropriate. Can you hear me loud and clear? And if you mention "big, strong caretaker" one more time, I am going to puke!

You appear to be hiding behind that HP indicia as indicated by your avitar. This is not even you, it's your husband that needs it. I know you seem to be enjoying all the great benefits that you get, but give it a friggin rest and change your avitar---you're not handicapped and you can't drive a passenger vehicle on the playa. Got it?

Captain Goddammit wrote:You've been to the burn before... did you see people, other than law enforcement, driving cars around the playa?

Almost none, you're right. But I've never seen anyone try it with a walker either. And the very few power chairs I've seen looked broken down with someone rying to make them run again. A manual chair would be impossible to use by oneself.

If my husband was to ride on your MV would you be prepared to get him to an outhouse when he needed it, give him the considerable time he'd need to use it and not drive off and leave him stranded? Would you be willing to take him back to his camp when his energy runs out long before yours? I doubt if you or any other MV would be interested in doing that once or twice a day, every day.

Do you suggest because he has special needs he should be banned?

Duck and cover.Unless you say exactly what they want to hear, you'd better be prepared for a lot of crap. I was told in so many words, that any disability, even a missing toe, is just as bad. Does this mean that anyone with a HP placard could/should be able to drive on the playa with a passenger vehicle, or is it going to be up to the DMV to judge the degree of disabilty. I can hear the cries to the DMV now, no matter what they do---"that's not fair".If they allow any car with a person displaying a placard to drive, then every camp will now have get a driver with this placard. No more mutant vehicles required, just a Camp Gimp.

Mary Lou, everyone is trying to gently tell you that you can't do this. I know you WANT to but it's not appropriate. Can you hear me loud and clear? And if you mention "big, strong caretaker" one more time, I am going to puke!

You appear to be hiding behind that HP indicia as indicated by your avitar. This is not even you, it's your husband that needs it. I know you seem to be enjoying all the great benefits that you get, but give it a friggin rest and change your avitar---you're not handicapped and you can't drive a passenger vehicle on the playa. Got it?

Bull Shit!
I have seen DMV disable permitted stock vehicles driving on the playa every year I have attended. I was in DMV getting my mutant registered when people came in to register stock vehicles. At least the days of people hitting DMV with crutches and a fake cast are over.
My understanding of the rules right now is anyone with a placard can apply for a disabled vehicle permit and with it can drive/be driven in anything around on the playa that is equal too or smaller than a full sized van or pickup truck. Fuck Peer Pressure about "what is right at burning man." I don't care if that Prius drives by my camp every time they go to head out to look at some art piece or hang out in center camp. Frankly I am glad Mary Lou is advocating for her husband and going to lengths to bring him to burning man so that he can have experiences that obviously many people enjoy. Kudos for bringing a BIG STRONG CARETAKER to help her and her husband to be able to experience the event better. If I was all fucked up I would love it if someone would take on helping me get to and function on the playa.

Black Rock City Welding and Repair. The Night Time Warming Station.

Card Carrying Member BRCCP.

When you pass the 4th "bridge out!" sign; the flaming death is all yours.-Knowmad-

theCryptofishist wrote:It doesn't matter what the criteria are, there are deserving people who will end up on the wrong side, and other people who manage to take advantage when they don't really need it.

I agree 100%. I wish there was a fair way to find the line. I recall being in Disney World and seeing a family rent a wheel chair for the simple idea of getting the entire family to the front of the line. Each time we would see them, another kid was in the chair being pushed. They always went up to the HP entrance and got right on the rides.

Futher, I too have an HP placard in my glove box for my mother. I am frustrated sometimes when I take her shopping and pull into a HP parking space, only to have her hand me a list and tell me she is going to wait in the car. Even though I have the placard, I ALWAYS move the car. I deal with a disabled person several times a week and have full first hand knowledge with the frustrations. I am thankful that when I need a wheelchair in Target, the clerk hurries to get me one. In so many ways, I am in the same position as MaryLou, but I try to handle things differently.

MaryLou wrote:Do you suggest because he has special needs he should be banned?

Gyre, let me try to explain how I would handle things differently. First, would never use a line like above. There are lots of things my mother can't do because of her disability. She can't go mountain climbing and she can't go sky diving--to name a few. These are now many limitations for her and she has no right to demand that she is able to do these. Not everything can be accessible to everyone and I know this. The playa's flat level surface can be accessible to some, but not all. The distance to travel, dust, wind, heat, cold, noise as well as the vastness of the playa are just some reasons to consider whether the playa is a destination for anyone--disabled or not.

I don't feel entitled by the HP placard, and would never wear this on my sleeve because someone related to me requires a placard. It would not become my persona, as I have seen here with the above poster.

True enough.
But everyone has their own desires and limitations.
Most disabled people I see on the playa without permits, either don't know about the permits or thought they would be fine without it.
Some are.
Others find themselves struggling.

With or without physical issues, we all have our own approach to the event.
Some are content to stay in one place and let the event come to them.
Others walk nonstop across the playa.
Personally, I want to be in three places at once, all the time.

I checked in a woman years ago, on a red four wheeled scooter.
We were all quite dubious about it working for her in all the dust.
This year I checked her in again...same scooter!!!
I was really happy to see her again.
She could very easily have stayed home and taken it easy.
But couldn't we all?

The playa already tends to discourage most people.
We have the most intrepid, determined people with disabilities, already preselected by the intimidation factor and sheer difficulty of going.
There's nothing wrong with giving everyone a shot at enjoying it.

It's tricky stuff, Shambala. I guess that in some ways we get up every morning and redraw the line. I, too, sometimes let my driver go out and get something--something quick, sitting in the car for a long time is not my idea of fun. I suppose the whole putting the quickee back together and doing the transfer is less than five minutes, probably less than three, but it feels like a production sometimes. I know that I'm never going to be able to go up the slide of death. (Okay, but even if they did bring it back.) It just hurts when I see the things that only need a tweek or two, the easy fixes, to make it that available to me.
I'm not going to say that the American with Disabilities Act is perfect, but in some sense having a dollar amount--above this you don't have to make this, below this you do--at least means that there's a measuring stick. Since that dollar amount is more than many projects cost, we'd need a different approach for the playa (and I don't know that this is the best thing), maybe something like "half a day for a third of the build crew." That's pretty much arbitrary, and considering that the size of the build crew changes over the months (yeah, I'm going on off-playa prep time here) it is hard to quantify.
Anyone who comes by the Booby Bar, please look at the doorways that accommodate my chair in the domes.
And Shamballa, I'm sorry I came down so hard on you. Went into Mama Bear mode and forgot who my friends are.

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

As someone with a disease that most likely in the not so distant future will render me unable to walk long distances without being in pain, I think that it is great that people with disabilities are able to experience the playa. If this means they get approval to drive a golf cart around, fantastic, if they mutate it even better. driving a regular car around might be a little weird and they might get weird looks and I would suggest getting a golf cart, but ultimately I think they should be allowed to do this. Maybe they can mutate it. Maybe they don't want to, or are not able to. As long as they aren't putting anyone in danger go for it! I don't think they should try and drive it to center camp in the middle of the day. too many people. but to go and see art and get to the man or temple hells yeah. When my disease brings me to the place where it is hard to move, you can bet that I will still be going to the playa. My disease makes dealing with heat hard on my body. I found a way around that by using a cooling vest. It changed my burn last year. I was able to go out in the heat of the day and not feel like total crap. Instead of focusing our energy on how it is not cool to drive around a car at burningman, we should focus on trying to provide ways for handicapped people to be able to get around, It would be great if there were a fleet of 10-20 golf carts that had been reconfigured to be able to transport people in wheelchairs. just a thought, I know that people will say then do it. I would if i could. I think this might be something the org would like to try and do. again just a thought.

Well, as of two weeks ago, I'm building my first (motorized) MV. I already have my BRC DMV Invite.

I can understand that Fishy and other wheelchair users want to be self-sufficient and avoid asking for help -- even avoid accepting help. Understand it, yes. Agree with it, no. Black Rock City is a highly unnatural environment for a wheelchair. If you decide to go anyway, it must obviously be a team effort! So please allow people to help. Give frank instructions for moving the chair safely. We can see you are crippled -- no need to try to keep it secret. I know it's devastating for you to live this way, but it's no big deal for the rest of us to give you a hand -- if you'll let us.

If all goes well, the You're Gonna Need A Bigger Boat will have a steep but stout boarding ramp. You're just gonna have to figure out which end of the boat is forward

theCryptofishist wrote:It's tricky stuff, Shambala. I guess that in some ways we get up every morning and redraw the line.

I know that I'm never going to be able to go up the slide of death. (Okay, but even if they did bring it back.)

I wish I knew where the hell that line was and why in the world does that line keep moving?

If I were there, I would give you a great big creepy hug Miss Fishy-ist. Further, if going down the slide of death is on your bucket list, I will help you with it. I would bring you there myself and carry you to the top, just to see the glee on your face as you slide down. It would be my pleasure to make sure that your wish comes true! After all, that what friends do for friends!

curiousgnate, i didn't know there was such a thing as a cooling vest. my son is a paraplegic who can't regulate his body temperature and so suffers in the day (we don't have an airconditioned rv), he does have a gas powered golf cart though as after his first time at burningman he said he'd never go again unless he had a way of getting around and only depending on himself, rather than others who were 'supposed to' give him rides.
did you pay like $300 for the one's i see advertised? i wonder if those 'thermopaks' could be rigged into regular clothes?

Hm. Could you use those weird squishy cold packs and put together a vest (or adapt one) with pockets for them? You might need to buy a dozen and haul around an ice chest in the golf cart. Maybe three packs, one each side of the front and one for the neck...

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

mine is a hyperkewl and only cost 35$. You dunk it in ice water, and it lasts like 2-3 hrs. and then you just dunk it again. Uttery fantastic, even for those that don't have special needs due to the heat.

That's evaporative.
What's the humidity where you are?
Denver has to be low.

There are some chemical change types that look interesting.
I think it would be worth something to have one that works.
It's on my list now.
I have to work outside all summer moving.
We have the least wind of almost anywhere, and high humidity.
Evaporative would just kill you here.

I steam cleaned a couple of my trailers.
You should have been there.
A long trailer full of steam with one opening!
Hard to catch a breath.

I'm glad these were brought up.
I have no tolerance for heat anymore.
They had me on betablockers for awhile and that seemed to really affect that.
My crash seems to have made it worse.
Thank god the playa is cooler.

I never looked much into these because there was a headband with a Z-chip on it for cooling and I was interested in that.
I haven't seen one since though.
Either they didn't work out, or the marketing failed.
Looks like I would have to build one myself now to find out.
It was a japanese product, and they have been advanced in many cooling items.
It was a metal heat sink with the Z-chip attached.

There are cooling systems for helmets, but that's all I've seen for the head since.

Ok, please don't take this the wrong way, as I support your goal Crypto.

But on one hand you are saying "I don't wants to stinkin' help!" and on the other you're saying "You must make it so that I can come in!" (which I support, btw).

How about another tack? Let's figure out a system/tool/utility that you can attach or load onto your chair that YOU can deploy when you find something that just doesn't cut it.

Maybe some sort of lightweight ramping system that stows over the back of your seat in a little quiver? Something like that would likely do the job for most doorways,etc that aren't extreme.

You'd be self-sufficient to a much greater degree, people would see you using it and be incredibly motivated by your inventiveness, etc.

Think something like that would work? If so, maybe we can group-collaborate on getting something like that done. If they work year one, maybe find a camp that wants to make/give them away as gifts to people that are in chairs.

LoR

The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion - W. Blake (attribution corrected)

So, presumptuous as I found it, the question has been asked about how I can consider myself "radically self-relienant" if I'm asking people to provide access when they design their camps and projects.

There are basically three catagories of my interaction with a camp.
The most self-reliant one is, I suppose, the one where I go to a camp, can't get in, and go away.
The most to-do and embarrassment is, I go, I can't get in, a group of people carry me in, and perhaps my chair as well. I am not a queen or empress with loads of body servants and a superior atitude and I don't want to have that sort of experience.
So, the best experience for me is I go, there's a good enough fit between camp design and my skills and equipment for me to enter at will, without help, and I can happily interact in a comfortable way where I'm not dependent on anyone to help me leave. And, as a bonus, other people in chairs and people who are a little unsteady on their feet from drink or fatique have it a little easier as well. (I won't mention walkers or strollers, although it may be easier for those on crutches as well.)

The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

Hey fishy I'm all for it. I hope people take accessability into account, and those that think you aren't radically self-reliant, can go fuck themselves. What is that anyway. I'm sure there could be a whole other post 10 pages long on that one. Why people get so whiney when this topic is brought up is beyond me. It's a perfectly reasonable request, and those that don't think about accessability (unfortunately most), might now.