WEBVTT KAREN: WELCOME BACK. FOR 17 YEARS, NANCY SAT ON THE BENCH OF A FEDERAL JUDGE IN BOSTON, STARTING AS A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER BEFORE RETIRING IN 2011. SHE MADE STRIDENT EFFORTS TO -- ON SENTENCING IN THE COURTROOM. AND ANDREA MADE HISTORY IN BOSTON S SUFFOLK COUNTY'S FIRST FEMALE AFRICAN-AMERICAN SHERIFF. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. YOU HAVE A LOT TO TALK ABOUT. WE COULD TALK ABOUT THE WHOLE TOPIC OF PRISON REFORM FOR AN HOUR. BUT LET'S START BY ASKING EACH OF YOU TO GIVE YOUR TOP AREAS OF CONCERN ON THIS TOPIC. I THINK WE NEED A MARSHALL PLAN TO EMPTY THE JAILS OF PEOPLE CONVICTED OF DRUG OFFENSES. I THINK THE AMOUNT OF HARM WE HAVE DONE WITH A MISPLACED WAR ON DRUGS, FEDERALLY AND STATE, THE KIND OF HARM, MASS INCARCERATION, DISRUPTION TO COMMUNITIES, UNTOLD HARM FOR LITERALLY NO REWARD. WE HAVE TO UNDO THAT, AND UNDOING THAT IS NOT, OH, LET'S CHANGE THE LAWS GOING FORWARD. UNDOING THAT IS CLEMENCY, RETROACTIVE APPLICATION OF LOWER SENTENCES, OPENING THE JAILS, PARTICULARLY NONVIOLENT DRUG OFFENDERS. MONUMENTAL EFFORTS TO MATCH A MONUMENTAL MISTAKE. KAREN: ANDREA? ANDREA: I AGREE WITH THAT, AND PART OF THE FALLOUT IS CLEARLY GENERATIONAL. EVEN IF YOU ARE SHORTSIGHTED ENOUGH TO ONLY LOOK AT A PERSON WHO WAS INCARCERATED AND THEIR CHILDREN, YOU ARE STOPPING TOO SHORT, BECAUSE IT REALLY HAPPENS WITH THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN. THE INHERENT UNFAIRNESS OF DRUG LAWS OVER -- I AM TALKING AS SOMEONE INITIALLY WAS IN FAVOR OF MANDATORY MINIMUMS AS A PROSECUTOR, BECAUSE I SAW THAT THEY COULD DO GOOD, WHICH THEY COULD IN THEORY BUT NOT IN PRACTICE. I THINK THE LARGE-SCALE EFFORT IS LARGELY AROUND MAKING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND EVIDENCE-BASED SYSTEM . THE SCIENCE AND WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T IN TERMS OF INCARCERATION. KAREN: IS THERE A SCIENCE BEHIND HIS TOPIC? ANDREA: THEY'RE VERY MUCH IS. IN FACT, MASSACHUSETTS IS ONE OF -- I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER HOW MANY STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY -- WE IMPLEMENTED THE RESULTS-FIRST MODEL, WHICH HAS BEEN EVIDENCED-BASED, DATA-DRIVEN MODEL THAT TELLS YOU WHAT PROGRAMS WORK, AND IS THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS SIX YEARS OUT, POST-RELEASE, TO SEE WHAT THE IMPACT OF THAT PROGRAM IS ON THE INMATE'S ABILITY TO GET AND MAINTAIN JOB, GET AND MAINTAIN HOUSING, HAVE A STABLE FAMILY ENVIRONMENT SO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH PEOPLE WHILE THEY ARE INCARCERATED IS GOING TO HOPEFULLY HAVE THE SAME GENERATIONAL EFFECT IN A POSITIVE WAY OR AMELIORATE SOME OF THE NEGATIVE GENERATIONAL EFFECTS OF INCARCERATION. KAREN: WHAT IS THE SCIENCE OF THE RESEARCH FOUND? -- WHAT DOES THE SCIENCE AND THE RESEARCH SHOW? NANCY: CERTAINLY WE CAN AFFECT CERTAIN CATEGORIES OF OFFENDERS. WE KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH DRUG ADDICTION. WE NOTE PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND NEUROSCIENTIFICALLY WITH DRUG ADDICTION DOES TO PEOPLE. WE KNOW HOW TO ADDRESS THAT. AND FULLY 80% OF THE PEOPLE I SENTENCED OVER 17 YEARS HAD SOME KIND OF DRUG ABUSE PROBLEM. THEN THEY GET INTO PRISON AND BECAUSE WE FOCUS ON WALLS AND WIRE AND SECURITY GUARDS, WE DIDN'T PUT MONEY INTO THOSE KINDS OF PROGRAMS. WE HAVE A FINITE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES AND EVERY PENNY THAT WE PUT IN THE WALL STREET TAKEAWAY FROM THE KINDS OF PROGRAMS ANDREA WAS TALKING ABOUT. THE OTHER THING -- YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT EVIDENCE-BASED? ONE OF THE THINGS WE NOTE DOES NOT WORK, CATEGORICALLY, EXTENDED IMPRISONMENT. I TRACKED 534 PEOPLE I SENTENCED OVER 17 YEARS, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT VERY FEW OF THEM EVER GOT BETTER AS A RESULT OF THEIR IMPRISONMENT. THE QUESTION IS WHAT HAVE WE BEEN DOING AND WHY. THERE ARE INCORRIGIBLE PEOPLE AND PEOPLE YOU CAN ADDRESS, BUT WE KNOW ABOUT THE IMPACTS OF DRUG ADDICTION AND IMPACT OF ABUSE, WE KNOW ABOUT INTERGENERATIONAL IMPACT. WE KNOW ABOUT THE PROFOUND COLLATERAL CONSEQUENCES OF FELONY CONVICTIONS. WHEN I WAS A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER, THERE WERE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS IN THE PRISONS. PEOPLE COULD GET A COLLEGE DEGREE SO WHEN THEY GOT OUT THEY HAD SOME HOPE OF A LIFE. ONCE WE PENALIZE PEOPLE FOR DRUG CONVICTIONS, ANY KIND OF CONVICTION, SO THAT THEY KNOW LONGER CAN GET SCHOLARSHIPS, THE PROGRAM ESSENTIALLY STOPPED. YOU GO TO JAIL FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND YOU, TO A DIFFERENT WORLD THAN ANY WORLD YOU KNEW. I THEN WE WONDER WHY -- KAREN: SO IT IS A DOMINO EFFECT THAT HAS SPUN OUT OF CONTROL. WHEN YOU WERE SITTING ON THE BENCH YOU WERE OFTEN IN SOME QUARTERS CRITICIZED FOR YOUR LENIENT SENTENCING. NANCY: YOU KNOW, THAT'S A FUNNY KIND OF WORD, BECAUSE I HAD TO FOLLOW SENTENCING GUIDELINES. AND I WOULD -- I'VE GONE OVER ALL OF MY SENSES AND WHAT I HAD TO DO WAS MITIGATE THE HARSH EFFECTS OF THE GUIDELINES BY MAKING ADJUSTMENTS. I HAD AN APPELLATE COURT ABOVE ME THAT ONLY KNEW HOW TO DO GUIDELINES. HAD NO SENSE OF THE HUMAN BEING I WAS SENTENCING. FOR THE MOST PART I WOULD GO TO THE MANDATORY MINIMUM RATHER THAN THE ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES SENTENCE, AND IF WE CALL THAT LENIENCY, THEN THE WORD IS WRONG. KAREN: ALL RIGHT, VERY GOOD, VERY GOOD. SHERIFF, I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN A PASSIONATE, OUTSPOKEN PERSON AROUND THIS TOPIC. WHAT KIND OF FEEDBACK HAVE YOU BEEN RECEIVING FROM YOUR COLLEAGUES FROM THE LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNITY? ANDREA: I AM ACTUALLY VERY PLEASED THAT IN MASSACHUSETTS WITH AN MOVING FAIRLY STEADILY TOWARDS THE MORE EVIDENCE-BASED SYSTEM, AND PEOPLE WHO RECOGNIZE THAT, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARE IN THE LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTINUUM -- I'M TALKING ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS, PROSECUTORS. PEOPLE REALIZE THAT WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO DO. NO ONE IS IMPROVING, AS THE JUDGE SAID, AND WHILE THERE IS STILL OPPORTUNITY FOR ADVANCED EDUCATION STATESIDE VERSUS THE FEDERAL SIDE, YOU CAN STILL DO IT IN STATE PRISONS, AND COUNTY HOUSE IS AND ALL THE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS OR EVIDENCE-BASED AND THEREFORE THEY ARE WORTHY. IT STILL TAKES PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING ON DIVERSION PROGRAMS, PARTICULARLY FOR JUVENILES. THIS IS A PROCESS. PEOPLE DON'T SUDDENLY FIND THEMSELVES IN STATE PRISON OR A HOUSE OF CORRECTION. IT IS A PROCESS. STARTING WITH JUVENILES AND DIVERTING MANY OF THOSE CASES TO THE TREATMENT OR WHATEVER SERVICE AND THE JUVENILE FAMILY, AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT, THAT IS A WAY TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM GOING TO PRISON. THREE OPIATE DEATHS IN BERLIN OR LOWELL. PEOPLE DON'T TAKE DRUGS BECAUSE OF BOREDOM. THEY TAKE DRUGS BECAUSE OF THINGS THAT ARE IN THEIR LIVES, AND AS LONG AS THERE ARE THINGS IN THE LIVES NOT BEING ADDRESSED, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE THEM, AND ALL THAT FLOWS FROM THAT WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. TREATMENT-BASED MODEL MAKES PERFECT SENSE, WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT INCARCERATION, EITHER VERSION OF A PROGRAM, OR A POST-INCARCERATION PROGRAM. WE HAVE BEEN USING THE NATURAL -- WE'VE BEEN USING AN INJECTABLE , WHICH MONTHLY INJECTIONS LITERALLY ELIMINATE THE PHYSICAL CRAVING FOR THE OPIATE. YOU HAVE TO COUPLE THAT WITH BEHAVIORAL HEALTH -- BEHAVIORAL HEALTH THERAPY BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER REASONS, PSYCHOLOGICAL AS WELL AS PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE. KAREN: ANDRIY IS TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU GET INTO PRISON, AND ONCE YOU GET INTO THE COURTROOM, JUDGE, WHAT CAN WE DO TO PERFORM THE SENTENCING PROCESS? THINGS TAKE FOREVER TO MAKE CHANGES IN THIS AREA. NANCY: THE POLITICS OF CRIME HAVE BEEN SUCH THAT FOR THE PAST 20, 30 YEARS, CRYING BECAME A POLITICAL FOOTBALL. BEING TOUGH ON CRIME WAS WHAT EVERY POLITICIAN SAID, AND NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY SAY MAYBE IT IS TIME TO BE SMART ON CRIME. WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE A RIGHT AND LEFT COALITION LARGELY BECAUSE THE ECONOMY THAT IS LOOKING AT HOW INCREDIBLY WASTEFUL MASS INCARCERATION IS. I THINK THERE IS HOPE IN THAT REGARD NOT FOR THE GOOD REASONS, WHICH IS IT IS A STUPID WAY OF RUNNING A SHOW, BUT FOR GOOD REASONS, WHICH IS THAT WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS. KAREN: WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME. AGAIN, THIS IS A VERY DETAILED TOPIC. ONE RECOMMENDATION FOR THOSE LISTENING TODAY. NANCY: ELIMINATE MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCES. ANDREA: I AGREE THAT YOU ELIMINATE MANDATORY MINIMUMS AND SENTENCES ON THE EVIDENCE-BASED DATA DRIVEN PRACTICES, AND HAVE THAT BE THE BASIS OF YOUR POLICY AND FUNDING. KAREN: VERY GOOD. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. AND YOU CAN LEARN MORE ABOUT ALL OF THE OUTREACH PROGRAMS AND THE INFORMATION WE HAVE PRESENTED ON A PROGRAM TODAY BY LOGGING ON TO OUR PAGE AT WCVB.COM, FOLLOW US ON TWITTER FOR THE HAPPENINGS AND PERSPECTIVES. PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A GREAT REST OF YOUR DAY. BYE-BYE.