Here's my attempt at a complete Karthwasten Thieves Guild, incorporating my ideas and ones posted in the earlier threads. I think six quests is as ambitious as we can get for a major settlement's faction questline, and that with the Karthwasten Thieves Guild, it makes sense to limit the action to the city itself. I would recommend saving the Elven Locks quest for Markarth's guild. Feel free to voice any suggestions for improvement or alterations. As always, I don't want to sound like I''m monopolizing NPC and quest planning.

Next up, I hope to convert my ideas for the Fighters Guild into a post. Expect something around four quests, since the Guild of Fighters isn't as big in Karthwasten as the Thieves Guild.

Background

Where there are merchants and markets, there are always thieves, and it should come as no surprise that the city of Karthwasten has attracted a host of pickpockets, drug-pushers, smugglers, and thugs. And yet, all is not going well for the local Thieves Guild. The guards have forced them into hiding for aiding the Redguard rebels of the Sogat Dur-Gada, and before the group can go back to expanding underground networks across The Reach, it must first survive in the kingdom’s largest city. But the allure of plump merchant purses is too much for any thief to resist, and for a guild of thieves in a time of political turmoil, its business as usual.

Little secret: "The guards have tried for years to stamp out the Thieves Guild in Karthwasten. They’ve forced them into hiding for aiding the Sogat Dur-Gada."

Major Characters

Boss Kanah – Female Redguard Rogue — Ambitious and cautious rolled into one, Boss Kanah is the boss of Karthwasten’s Thieves Guild, the largest branch of the organization in The Reach. Quick wits helped her survive being orphaned in the War of Bend’r-Mahk, and pragmatic opportunism allowed her to thrive as a criminal. She saw a chance to profit by smuggling supplies for the Sogat Dur-Gada, but is willing to play both sides of The Reach’s conflict if the terms are favorable.

J’Diir – Male Khajiit Agent — A wry drug dealer and front man for the Thieves Guild, J’Diir sees himself as just another merchant working Karthwasten’s markets. As the city’s most visible criminal, he spends his days lying low in seedy drinking dens like the Dancing Saber.

Lorvacah– Female Breton (Reachmen) Publican — As the publican of The Droopy Mane, Lorvacah acts as a non-thieving member of the guild who acts as an intermediary between the guild’s actual boss and footpads like you, the player. Her tavern in Karthwasten’s poorest area also acts as a temporary safe house when there isn’t enough time to reach the underground hideout. You’ll need to prove yourself trustworthy to Lorvacah before taking jobs from Boss Kanah.

Hadnar White-Wind – Male Nord guard — Hadnar is Karthwasten’s strict guard captain and has no patience for the Thieves Guild’s mischief. Still, he’s more concerned with rooting out the Sogat Dur-Gada and might be willing to cut a deal with the guild for the right information.

Rakan — Male Redguard Nightblade — Local ringleader of the Sogat Dur-Gada in Karthwasten. For years, he’s been plotting in the shadows, trying to build the foundations for an uprising in the city. The Thieves Guild cooperates with his plans under mutually agreeable terms, but only because he hasn’t involved them in anything too risky yet.

Joining the Guild

Finding the Thieves Guild isn’t as easy in Karthwasten as it might be in other settlements. Generic dialogue hints that the Dancing Saber is the best place to socialize with the city’s seedier element. Visiting the tavern, you will meet J’Diir. Looking you over, the cat will have different words of advice, depending on whether or not you are already a member of the Skyrim Thieves Guild:

J’Diir: “Lorvacah at the Droopy Mare may know more. That is all J’Dirr will say.”
J’Diir: “You are a member of the guild, yes? Lorvacah at the Droopy Mare will have work for you, %PCRank. That is what J’Diir thinks.”

Lorvacah: You ask about the guild? I know nothing of it… unless. Did the sugar lips of J’Diir send you here? Ah, I see. You must truly want to join the guild then. I am right, yes?

Quests

Quest One — A Dancing Distraction

Lorvacah is interested in recruiting you, but in the current environment of distrust, you must perform a simple job before being welcomed in. Thankfully, she has the perfect target in mind. When staking out the Ruby Drake Inn, a footpad noticed a fancy ring on a Colovian merchant, Caponicus Valian. Lorvacah, of course, wants you to steal the ring, and if you can’t manage it on your own, she will suggest asking the Redguard dancer Inah for help.

You can either pickpocket Caponicus directly while he’s relaxing in the Ruby Drake’s lounge (it will be challenging with the two other NPCs in the room), or pay Inah to slip the ring off the Imperial’s finger using her feminine wiles. In exchange, Inah will ask you to break into the snooty bookseller Aladoer’s room. She’s angry at him for insulting her and wants you to snatch one of his precious books. No matter how you obtain the ring, Lorvacah will be happy and ready to entrust you with a more important task.

Caponicus Valian: “Uh, pardon me, but have you seen my ring? I must’ve left it around here somewhere…”

Quest Two — Doing a Cat’s Job

J’Diir, the guild’s chief drug dealer, is being watched by the guards and can’t risk getting caught with his merchandise. Lorvacah will send you to help the cat deliver Moon Sugar to his usual customers and collect payments. At higher dispositions, you can ask for more gold and keep whatever extra profit you happen to make. J’Diir’s clients are:

Geod Entoriane: “What’s that? Moon sugar? My good sir, I’ll have you know I am a knight and gentleman. I have nothing to do with that sort of… oh, I see. J’Diir sent you. Well, it’s about time. My stash has been running low. So hand over the good stuff already.

[ask for 75 gold]
[ask for 100 gold]

Quest Three — Bumbling Competition

Two thieves in Karthwasten, a Reachmen pickpocket in the Poor Quarter and a Bosmer robber who lives in a house along Merchant Row, are refusing to join the guild, and their amateur bungling of day-to-day purse lifting is drawing undue attention to the Karthwasten Thieves' Guild. They're pretty bad, but good enough to escape the authorities, which means there are too many guards around the marketplace now for the guild’s liking.

Lorvacah informs you that the guild’s boss, Boss Kanah, has little interest in recruiting these petty purse-lifters, and wants them chased out of town or thrown in jail, taking pressure away from the Guild of Thieves. You could even kill them, but that is the worst ending to the quest. At a high disposition and overall level (a higher level means the player is more intimidating), the player can simply intimidate the pickpockets into giving up their thieving ways.

At a lower disposition, the player can convince them to join the guild, promising special perks and providing them with a “gift” to honor their membership. You’ll ask if there’s anything they want you to steal, and when you provide the stolen goods, you’ll actually be planting them on the thieves to get them in trouble with the law. The player can then tip off guard captain Hadnar White-Wind to make an arrest.

EDIT (12/8/2016) - Slim this down a little to feature just Corelyn, a Bosmer burglar. She'll want the player to steal something from one of the rich manors. Once you turn it over, you can tip off the guards and turn her in.

Quest Four — Dilemma for Disarray

Lorvacah finally trusts you enough to send you to the guild’s hideout, deep in Karthwasten’s underground tunnels. There, Boss Kanah is waiting with an important job.

Redguard agents have learned of an old map the guards have found of Karthwasten’s underground. The last thing the Sogat Dur-Gada and the Theives Guild needs is groups of guards patrolling the tunnels, and Boss Kanah wants you to steal the map before they figure out what it is how to read it properly. The map is located in the upper parts of the barrack’s interior.

Quest Five — Looting the Lost Heirloom

After your success on the previous mission, Boss Kanah is ready to trust you with a lucrative job. A client in Hammerfell has contacted the guild (through the Sogat Dur-Gada’s information network) about retrieving a heirloom left behind when his family fled Karthwasten before it fell to the conquering Nords and went into exile. Turns out it was left in a manor now occupied by the Boar Snout Clan, a brotherhood of rowdy Nords and Orcs.

A guild lookout has spied on the manor for some time and believes it shouldn’t be too difficult to break in while the clan is busy feasting in the main hall. After all, the Boar Snout Clan is known for welcoming strangers as long as they know how to have a good time. With this Intel in mind, Boss Kanah will recommend taking a jug of Ungorth, to help the player blend in with the other merrymakers.

The job is a simple "pick the lock, find the item, escape unnoticed" kinda gig. Searching the manor, the player will find the heirloom hidden away in a neglected wing of the manor. At any time searching the nearby rooms, the player might run into a clan member, who will force-greet them and ask what they are up to. The player can either, with the right level of speachcraft, fool the Orc by offering him booze, or fight him if that doesn’t work.

Return the heirloom to Boss Kanah to cash in your reward of 100 drakes and an enchanted Ring of Lucky Leaps (minor cast on use jump and fortify luck enchantments) If the player kills (or runs away) from the raucous clan member, the reward will be only 50 drakes and no ring. More guards will also be posted to the Manor District following the break-in.

Quest Six — Playing All Sides

Finally Boss Kanah has enough confidence to trust you with a vital task. More and more, the Karthwasten Thieves Guild is coming under pressure from the city guard for supporting the Sogat Dur-Gada. Siding with them in the past seemed like a good idea at the time, but now it might be more trouble than it’s worth. Boss Kanah is no idealist. She’ll do whatever it takes to benefit the guild, and if that means cutting a deal with Hadnar White-Wind, then so be it.

Boss Kanah will send you to the Sogat Dur-Gada hideout, supposedly to deliver the map stolen in an earlier quest. Along with taking the document to the group’s local ringleader, Rakan, Boss Kanah also wants you to snoop around and uncover any intelligence they might be able to use to bargain with the city guard. Other members of the guild have already identified possible locations to find these items, which include:

— A letter of correspondence between the Sogat Dur-Gada and an unidentified spy in the Red Palace close to Prince Alrod.
— A list of assassinations targets Rakan is planning.

The player’s reward will depend on whether they bring back only one document, or both of them. The challenge will be stealing the items with anyone noticing. If they do, the player can still complete the quest, but the trust between the Thieves Guild and the Sogat Dur-Gada will be broken and Boss Kanah will be furious.

I think the implication is that the TG wants to score some points with the city guard, instead of collaborating with the Redguard insurgents. A pragmatic guard captain like Hadnar White-Wind might be willing to turn a blind eye to the guilds' activities, in exchange for vital information on the Sorgat Dur-Gada and their activities.

The extra attention from the guards in retaliation for supporting insurgent extremists, is not weighing up the benefits they get from working for and with the SDG. They want to switch sides, and they want it done without bloodshed and making enemies - the player will need to carry out this operation without raising suspicion from the SDG. An underground war with them is the last thing they'd want, so the transition from being allied with the SDG to being "allied" with White-Wind will need to be done gracefully and unsuspiciously.

I like that too Great stuff. I especially dig the fact it doesn't abruptly end with PC becoming a new guildmaster, out of blue (take that, TES V!)

I had an idea to develop the heirloom quest, that I think is even more fitting now, when it's supposed to be so late in a questline. How about, the family used to have a secret treasury in a basement, hidden behind a T_Rga_SetReach_I_TileHiddenW_01? That's where they stored their family relic, as well as some valuables, and it's likely it's remained there all this time, since the occupiers are oblivious about it. The twist is, while a questgiver knows about the treasury, he doesn't really now how it's opened - after all, he was still but a kid back then. He needs the guild security expert (PC) to locate the treasury, find a way to get it unlocked (T_Com_Var_Button_01 well-hidden somewhere in a residence, maybe in a room above the basement?) and retrieve the heirloom. He only cares about that thing, and as a reward, the guild is entitled to keep everything else they manage to scavenge from the treasury.

Another thing to keep in mind: a resident of one of the houses in docks I made (Sky_iRe_KW__dock03 in Skyrim_main file) was supposed to be in the guild too. Maybe he can be the guild falsifier, and in general a spoilt savant kind of figure (I tried to create a vibe there that a resident belongs to intelligentsia, even though he lives with the poor for some secret reason)? Quest four can be about grabbing the map from barracks, delivering it to the man, and then planting a forged version of the map he created to fool the guards back in the place.

While working on NPCs, I noticed that Sky_iRe_KW_23 (Karthwasten, Rianard: Alchemist) would work great in a Thieve Guild robbery quest. There are various different paths for breaking into different parts of the interior, including unlocking doors, using an outdoor balcony, and levitating up an atrium to bypass a locked bedroom door. Nice stuff.

I was under the impression that Yeti's proposal for the Karthwasten TG quest chain replaced the other 4 TG quests in "Unclaimed". Most (if not all) of those other 4 quests are actually included in Yeti's post.

I'm still working on this claim (dialogue always takes me longer than expected).

I was thinking about adding some Personality + Speechcraft checks (and possibly an Intelligence check here or there) throughout almost all of the quests to highlight the "swindling/smooth-talking" aspects of the TG. For example, the player could, in addition to the paths outlined by Yeti above, 1) convince Caponicus to sell his ring for a fraction of its actual worth, 2) extort more money from J'Diir's customers, 3) convince Corelyn to abandon her thieving ways, etc.

Feel free to expand the quests where you think it is reasonable, Texafornian. I wrote them to be as simple as possible (I always write quests that I know I could theoretically script myself, and I am awful at scripting) and I am sure they could be fleshed out and improved in many ways.

I would still like to find a place in the quest line burglarize the city's alchemist. Let us know if you have any ideas where this could fit in.

While working on NPCs, I noticed that Sky_iRe_KW_23 (Karthwasten, Rianard: Alchemist) would work great in a Thieve Guild robbery quest. There are various different paths for breaking into different parts of the interior, including unlocking doors, using an outdoor balcony, and levitating up an atrium to bypass a locked bedroom door. Nice stuff.

Sounds good, Yeti. Let me know if you ever want any scripting help since I'm the opposite: I can script something out fairly quickly, but it's the creative side that takes me a while.

That alchemist burglary job could be placed between Bumbling Competition and Dilemma for Disarray as Boss Kanah would probably want to see some more thieving experience prior to giving the player a job critical to the TG's survival. DfD would still be Kanah's introductory quest.

Or, it could be Kanah's introductory quest to personally see how the player does, instead of simply relying on recommendations from Lorvacah.

Those sound like fine suggestions. Feel free to go ahead with whichever you prefer.

Sadly, I would need to dedicate far too much time to learning the ins and outs of scripting to even become somewhat competent. I feel it would be best for me to focus on the areas of modding that come more naturally to me. I appreciate the offer, though!

Before I forget, I think it would be best to script the door to the Sogat Dur-Gada hideout so that it only opens if the player gives a password provided to the Thieves Guild. It's a little odd that the Redguards inside don't kill people on sight upon entering their secret hideout, so having it so only people with permission can enter will explain that. Otherwise, if we make them hostile, the player might stumble upon the hideout and kill everyone before the quest is given.

Quick update: The alchemist quest's primary goal will be to steal Rianard's notes from his desk for an unnamed competitor. The player can optionally sabotage his latest concoction (guarded by Odjor) for a better reward.

Any more ideas about that secret entrance in the Sogat Dur-Gada hideout?

I was hoping to post a draft of all dialogue, journal states, and scripts this weekend before I implement it all in an esp, but I've been swamped with other things yet again.

In the meantime, I'd like to get some feedback on approaches I've been taking with this quest chain so I can update/remove them before I implement everything:
- Every quest has typically one failure state which closes the quest. Killing the mark (or the customers in the moon sugar quest) will produce a journal entry, end the quest, and make further progression in the TG impossible. I don't think the vanilla TG went this far, but I like the more recent trend that says quests should have failure states.
- I've added pretty much all of the additional ideas presented in this thread as they add some interesting quest stages and help to differentiate the jobs.
- The player can use speechcraft/personality to buy the ring from Caponicus in A Dancing DIstraction, receive a higher payment in Doing a Cat's Job, persuade Corelyn to leave town without having to give her a "gift" in Bumbling Competition, and get out of fighting the Orc in Looting the Lost Heirloom.
- If Corelyn is arrested in Bumbling Competition, then she will appear in the Karthwasten Jail.
- I've added the alchemist quest (A Curious Concoction), but removed my original secondary "sabotage" objective and replaced it with another requirement to find a second item.
- I added the "map forging" stage to Dilemma for Disarray, with the forger being Erald at the Karthwasten Docks. If the player commits a crime (aka stealing the map) in front of a guard in the City Barracks, the quest will fail with a journal entry, and the player will be unable to progress any further in the TG.
- I'm going to add a small basement cell to serve as the vault in Looting the Lost Heirloom. Do I need to let an interior developer handle this instead? Should the vault simply be added to the original Manor cell instead of being its own cell?

Your plans all sound reasonable to me. I really look forward to seeing your work on this. I think you can go ahead and add the vault cell, as long as it matches the rest of the manor. Someone can look it over as part of reviewing the claim.

Here's a link to my latest dialogue/journal states. The scripts aren't included, but I can add them if needed. Anyone should be able to comment. Please do comment on anything and everything as I'd like to develop the characters as envisioned.

Hey, this looks like good stuff! I'm a bit preoccupied with classwork at the moment, but I should be able to give this a more thorough examination in a week or so. Until then, feel free to make any improvements you want. Or take a break if you want to come back to this with fresh eyes later. Thank you for the hard work so far!

This is so cool. It's exciting to see a dedicated quester/scripter at work at PT I'd love to playtest it or assist you with implementing some of this in CS, if you'd like to.

I read the draft and it's very appealing, the dialogues are well written and the quests' layouts looks reasonable. Some quick remarks from what caught my attention:

10 | Lorvacah before will consider accepting me into the Thieves Guild if I can acquire something from Caponicus Valian.

I think this sentence is somewhat off? Doesn't it miss a predicate?

The Boar Snout Clan is feasting right now so you should be able to walk right in as long as you look like you're ready to have a good time.

I'm not sure about the "feasting right now" bit, as it pretty much looks like they are feasting 24/7, thanks to the limited MW NPCs schedules. Unless you plan to script them to be more actively feasting, like moving (almost) all the NPCs to the main hall for the time being?

Again, this is impressive work, Texafornian. You've done a great job implementing my plans and improving upon them. I do have a few comments on parts of your draft, but you're definitely going in the right direction with this.

[35>=>X>=10] What’s that? Moon Sugar? My good sir, I’ll have you know I am a knight and gentleman. I have nothing to do with that sort of… oh, I see. J’Diir sent you. Well, it’s about time. My stash has been running low. So hand over the good stuff already.
- Choice "[Ask for 100 gold to "cover expenses"]" 1. [Ask for 75 gold]" 2.

I was the one who wrote this, so it's my fault that there's an issue, but we need an alternative line for female players without the "good sir" part.

[5] J'Diir is good at his job. Too good. The City Guard have heard whispers about J'Diir's business and now it tracks J'Diir. Take these deliveries to three regular customers: Geod Entoriane at the Fighter's Guild, Ties-The-Bark at <>, and Driziiri at <>. Bring their payments to J'Diir. You can keep any extra gold.
- Journal Sky_qRE_KwTG02_Journal 10

Ties-The-Bark can be found at the Red Palace, and Driziiri lives in a small house in the northwest corner of town. Perhaps we can give J'Diir topics for each of them so he can provide players with more detailed directions.

[0] Corelyn is a Bosmer robber who lives in a house along Merchant Row. She refuses to join the guild, and her amateur bungling of day-to-day purse-lifting in the marketplace is drawing undue attention to the Guild's activities. Her recent botched burglary of a manor was the final straw. Do whatever it takes, short of killing her, to get her out of our hair.

I would shorten and change this a little to sound more like natural spoken dialogue. Something like this:

"Corelyn is a Bosmer robber living in the house next door. She refuses to join the guild, and her amateur purse-lifting is drawing unwanted attention to our own operations. Her recent botched burglary of a nobleman's manor was the final straw. Do whatever it takes, short of murder, to get her out of our hair."

[70] Good riddens to her.

This should be Good riddance.

Also, I recommend giving Lovarcah a topic for Hadnar White-Wind, not just to give players directions to him, but also introduce who he is as a character and his relationship with the guild.

"He commands the city's guards. You can find him at the City Barracks, no doubt plotting to make life hard for our guild. He's a brutish, violent man. You be careful around him, %PCRank."

Don't forget to include linking dialogue between quests where it's needed. For instance, after completing the Bungling competition quest, Lovarcah should say something like this:

"I have no more tasks for you, %PCRank. No, you are ready for bigger jobs. You are ready to meet Boss Kanah."

PLAYER CHOICE - "Who is Boss Kanah?"

"Did you think I was the guild's leader in Karthwasten? No, I am only the face for the guild's business. Our leader, Boss Kanah, plots our plans in the shadows, hidden from view. Now, you are ready to meet her."

PLAYER CHOICE - "Where can I find her?"

"In our hideout. You've earned the guild's trust, now you may know our secrets. Take this key. Go through the door to my right. It will take you into the caverns beneath the city. There you will find Boss Kanah."

And then when you meet Boss Kanah, she would greet you with:

"You must be %PCName. Lovarcah's told me about you. Says you know a thing or too about thieving and dealing. Well, we'll see how good you are. I might just have an important job or two, if you're interested. Just ask."

[0-1] We've had a mutually-beneficial relationship with the Sogat Dur-Gada for some time now. We're able to keep a steady stream of work, and the Sogat Dur-Gada continue to do whatever they're doing in the shadows. That could change, however, if the guards figure out that map.
- Choice "So what's the job?" 2.
[0] Some of our acquaintances in the Sogat Dur-Gada have learned of an old map the guards have found of Karthwasten’s underground. Fortunately for both of our groups, the guards haven't been able to decipher it. Yet.
- Choice "We're working with the Sogat Dur-Gada?" 1.

I would add another choice here that lets the player ask about who the Sogat Dur-Gada are.