The Supporter formerly known as Y*D …

The Society of Black Lawyers circled today as the day when the term Y*D will be officially complained against for being offensive, regardless of who and how the term is used.

Now why the 20th of this month was the day chosen to draw the line in the sand. Why not the 25th when we play West Ham, a game where abuse is bound to be flowing from both sides? Is it just to give us all five days notice? Now just for the record, I am not Jewish and don't even have any friends that are openly of that belief, therefore am I really able to understand whether the Yid/Yido phrase is taken as being truly offensive or whether there is understanding in their football supporting community that understands and accepts the reasons why our fans use the term both with affection and also as a means to counter racial bigotry from other supporters.

I say football community, because I wonder if there is a difference, in actually witnessing the usual football banter or abuse and how it is given and countered. Certainly in my time of going to WHL, the anti Jewish chants are not as regular or seemingly issued with such venom as my early years at the Lane, not that any such insults are acceptable whether whispered by one person or shouted by a whole stadium. As a Spurs fan writing this, I am very interested to hear the thoughts of our Jewish fans and perhaps their reasoning will make me think again about my using words that may genuinely offend. To many it may be a badge of honour or just singing a song that now typifies our club, but would we really want to sing it if it made our fellow fans quietly uncomfortable. I know I wouldn't.

Personally racism rarely touches my life. I live in an area where 95% of my locals are White/English, not even British and the joke is usually more about inter-breeding and marrying cousins than anything else. Perhaps that in itself is an ist or ism of some sort. What about Yokalism? Perhaps I should form a society to protect them? What I feel however is a divide in my thinking. When I listen to views from the likes of David Baddiel as a Jewish man, I have to take his point, if he says it offends his faith. Equally I never feel I am being racist when I sing the Yid word, as I strangely feel part of my clubs history, but if I knew it was upsetting to some people around me, would I still be so innocently happy to join in with me fellow fans?

As for Peter Herbert and his fellow Society members, I fully agree with the comments from John Barnes that their current work, will only cause resentment from the majority and will continue to be ignored by the minority that cause the problems and for me, targeting Tottenham fans is an easy and high profile target that may hit the headlines, but is for me hitting the problem from the wrong side. But is any victory however small, still a victory worth fighting for, however small and far from the core problem? Of course, if Spurs fans are to be complained against, we must also see complaints made against rival clubs when anything deemed unsuitable is shouted, perhaps when all abuse against Spurs fans and their Jewish connections is irradiated, there would be a genuine reason to argue against our chanting the Yid word.

In the last few days, the site have had a couple of members ask to change their long standing username to one that no longer has the word Yid or Yido in it. Perhaps to some it is a major over-reaction, but I wonder if others privately are now reconsidering the suitability of their username and for all our dismissive comments about Peter Herbert and David Baddiel some are at least considering their use of the words and as a club, can we ever see a time when the use of the Y-Word is no longer used by our fans and any form of racism is no longer part of our great game???

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If any Jewish fan, wants to write a piece relating to this, I would be very pleased to publish it. perhaps we could have one that tells us why it is offensive or maybe one that feels it is all totally out of hand and they and their faith are being used by others for their own agenda

Well speaking as a half Yid half Roman Cathoilic hence the OyVey Maria! I cant say I have any problem with the society of Black Lawyers or the Society of Irish Lawyers come to that...people are people you get some very nice Jews you get some very nasty one's, you get lovely Irish people you get some who want to blow you up...living in N17 you get to accept everyone you meet Somalian, Chinese, Bengali you name it... someone makes a racist comment on the terraces its a problem someone makes a racist comment on the street you shrug your shoulders and walk on or you lamp them one! life's too complicated to start making more lables...I prefer to think that a bad peace is better than a good war rather than a blow will pass but a spoken word lingers on.....hey what's in a name anyway! Were all schmucks anyway!

Nice article Ox. I'm not Jewish but having been a Spurs fan for over 40 years and living in North London I know lots of Jewish Spurs fans. There is some squirming and discomfort at the use of the 'Y' word but they openly admit it all depends on the content in which it is used. I agree with your sentiment that if there is any discomfort felt by Spurs fans when the word is sung and used by us then we should stop using it.

Doesn't Baidel support arsenal? no wonder he has more reason to hate us .. OX proud to keep the word Yid in my name unless you are forced to change it but please keep it I am a YID and proud not Jewish so am I a racist as I have YID til I die tattooed on me?

Honestly does it really help to bring us all together to have these little groups stoking up resentment? My grandmother was Jewish but as she died during the second world war I couldn't really tell you if it's offensive. For me it's all about context- a hiss can be offensive, the word sweetie, luv or boy can be used in sexist and racist ways. As a person who finds most religions offensive in one way or another I just get on with it and would only have a real issue if something was intending to be derogatory....if it were up to me we would only have one society for lawyers and that would include everyone....I find having a society for black lawyers quite offensive and counter productive.

shedboy - I agree. Modern life should be about inclusion of all cultures and a respect for all diversity whilst not forgetting our background and heritage. There is no place in my mind for a society for black lawyers only. That means that a white Jewish lawyer can't even join their little club and express an opinion in their setup. How is that a good thing?

As for whether Spurs fans should continue to use the word "yid" I'm all for listening to the true Jewish Spurs fans. If they are offended and request that the world stops using that term in the context of our football club then so be it. Over the last year we've had other threats to our identity like renaming WHL and even being called "London Hotspur" and playing at the Olympic Stadium. Let's remember there is no single thing that can change our status as Spurs fans and stopping using the word Yid doesn't erode our identity at all. We have way more depth than that.

when chelsea and wet spam fans stop singing their aushwitz song I'll stop singing 'yid army'. My personal opinion is that racism is in the intention of the action and not in the words used. For my own part I use the word as an expression of the bond that spurs fans have with eachother and the multicultural nature of that bond, as well as taking an 'insulting' word and wearing it as a badge of pride in defence of both my club and of that traditional multicultural nature of it. Yes, the SBL are going after our club because we are the easy target and they get a bit of publicity over it, which is not exactly honest or particularly helpful in itself, but what really ticangers me is the assertion by both Baddiel and the SBL that chanting 'yid army' or praising a player as a 'yido' is as bad as imitating the hissing of the gas chambers or singing 'spurs are on their way to auschwitz, sieg heil, hitlers gonna gas them again... etc'. Quite frankly that is wrong and insulting and shows a complete misunderstanding and misdirecting of efforts in the fight against racism. Thats why on sunday I will be singing 'YID ARMY' at the top of my lungs, both because of what it means to me and the rest of our fans and in acknowledgement of where our use of the word comes from and its history of fighting anti semitism on the terraces.

@ wiltshirespur. I agree and hence my point over us being an easy target and good publicity. will we see prosecutions for fans who hiss to liken a gas chamber? equally, how do you punish individuals when thousands are joining in? do you punish the club either financially or by closing their stadiums? Personally I feel we have made truly massive strides in my football watching lifetime and I fear that organisations such as the SBL need to consider carefully their actions in football or cause more problems than they ever hope to solve

As a white British Sussex lad who on more than one occassion has had the ***** kicked out of me by ignorant neo-nazi *****ers, and unfortunately had to give some back on others, I can say that I detest racism / bullying / verbal violence of any ilk. I've never described myself as a 'yid' and wouldn't sing the song just in case it was causing offence to either fellow supporters or Jewish fans of other teams, BUT I think Herbert's stance is simplistic and insulting. Spurs official line on this is correct - the term was reclaimed in defence of Spurs Jewish heritage and support of Spurs Jewish fans - it was born out of contempt for idiots who joke about the Holocaust, therefore in this context it is not being used as a racist term. However, whether there is a need to address this issue internally over the coming years is a different matter. Without going over-the-top PC, it is a good idea to undertsand that certain terms can perpetuate negative definitions and attitudes, and this needs to be considered at some point. BUT wtf Herbert thought he was going to achieve by presenting Spurs with an ultimatum probably has little to do with racism and a lot to do with self-promotion - basically not very helpful. Meanings of words change - 'Queer', 'Gay', 'brother', etc. Herbert needs to listen to 'Straight Outta Compton' by NWA to understand how empowering reclaiming a word can sound be. 'Yiddo' has taken on new meaning on the terraces of WHL and that needs to be taken on board with a bit of sensitivity if it's going to change. The real problem is not with Spurs fans and missing this point deflects from the main issue of 'kicking out racism from the FA'! Sorry for long post.

one question:if we put it into context,does this mean that this herbert character wants people who go to a jay-z concert to stop using the n-word and if they don't he would like prosecute jay-z fans?just a thought!

There will never be peace singing or shouting annoying chants thats just the way all fans are , but it could take a better turn if players stop kneeling in the centre circle hands out stretched looking to the heavens and praying to their God or the usual grabbing of the pitch crossing them selves many many times before taken to the pitch , now this could all be offencive to people why can they not pray in private inside the room belonging to that team who you are playing either home or away they don`t have to try and impress fan`s as to why they are a goody goody player i am sure most grounds have a place where players can be alone with their thoughts its high time this was stopped it makes a mockery of the badge they wear on their arm saying respect come on people in high places sort it .

I'd have to agree with that, POP - generally (with a few exceptions), it's not been or going to be helpful to have religious or political gestures on a sportsfield. It's all very well us spouting on about this - but it would be good to hear what Jewish Spurs fans have to think about this issue? It's their view that needs to be considered / respected. So far, I've only read about Jewish Spurs fans supporting the 'y-army', and the negative stance has been from Jewish supporters / players of other teams. It's a pretty sensitive issue all round.

I just can’t understand how supporters who chant "Yid Army" (half who don’t actually know what the term Yid means) can be likened to those who visit our grounds and make a mockery of one of the darkest days in human history. When scumbags make hissing noises etc there is only one way that can be interpreted. Racist, bigoted or whatever you may call it, it is behaviour that should not be tolerated. The same goes for any fan who may sing about other teams fans who have been murdered abroad (sadly we have all heard them) it is a line that should not be breached in modern society.

ox- the last question in the poll should be split into - I'm jewish and offended and I'm not jewish but would like to cause Spurs as much trouble as possible therefore I'm offended...the more I think about it the more I don't know how the SBL can get away with their name at the very least you'd think it was indirect discrimination....

Peter Herbert and David Baddiel clearly have no understanding of what it was like in the 60s and 70s to encounter real anti-semitic racism at football matches. I certainly recall as a 15 year old being terrified after a home game against Chelsea after being chased down the High Road by thugs calling me a "Jew boy" and aiming kicks at me. They finally caught me and after giving me a good kicking, walked off laughing with my Spurs scarf as a trophy. Years later I count myself grateful to a set of supporters who have adopted the identity of "Yids" and as a result have not only successfully countered the abuse but have made a courageous stand (rather like the loyal colleagues of Spartacus). I for one was happy to tick the top box in the poll. Nice article Ox!

I liked Dochotspurs' comment that 'Yiddo' has taken on new meaning on the terraces of WHL and with that in mind, perhaps we should get a campaign going to have it accepted by the Oxford English Dictionary - Yid, Yiddo (noun) - A loyal supporter of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. COYS

Turning an offensive phrase into something that people can sing with pride and actually stop people in their tracks, when it’s supposed to be used offensively should not be banned imo. From the Jewish Spurs following I know, they all sing with Pride and know there is no offense intended. In fact I would go as far to say anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't understand! When I was younger, I didn't understand why I was getting called names just for being a Spurs fan....and this want that long ago. Every fan probably gets a share of what you see as abuse…but it’s a very current problem if people actually take the time to ask youngsters. I can only speak for a minority so it’s a great idea to ask more of Jewish spurs fans if they do get offended when we do this. I hope the answer is No because I never meant this with intent to cause my fellow yids any harm. It’s more of a shield actually, and a way of sticking up for us all. And that is not a bad thing.

If Jews find it offensive then it should be banned ,it`s an insult to jews not to non jews so only they can make that call .Hip Hop music is far more racist than what gets sang on the terrace but that just gets parental advisory warnings .The world is getting far too sensitive & racist hypocrites like Peter Herbet need to concentrate on far serious issues that go on in the world .Child sex grooming & child prostitution is out of control but who is too happy to brush that under the carpet ?

What do you mean "does...sometimes", Big C? Political correctness ALWAYS has the opposite effect & ALWAYS makes things worse.

See that dickhead from the Society for Black Lawyers isn't giving up on us. He's meeting the Met & will still lodge an official complaint. Is this guy the worst purveyor of spin ever? Because that can be the only explanation for his antics, to raise the profile of his little society into something bigger than it can ever hope to be. Give it up you plonker - you've lost!!

Spuds-U-Like exactly .Is there a society of white Lawyers ? Do we have MOWO awards ? music of white origin To stop racism is to stop the double standards ,muslims are ridiculous with their double standards .

I do wonder how stupidly far this could get? Can we seriously imagine fans being pointed out and charged with racial offences? Could the club get fined for failing to control their fans and as fans would we stop chanting Yid to save the club money and huge embarrassment? Could it ultimately end in areas of the stadium being closed due to persistent reoccurrence? all sound stupidly OTT, but can we definitely rule them out if a complaint is made and arrests were to follow?

Probably not Ox, but there must come a point where the powers that be have to have a word in this guy's ear & tell him he's wasting his time as the letter of the law is not being broken no matter how "official" his complaint is. If you or I did it, what's the betting we'd end up being charged with wasting police time?

Personally, I'd charge the guy with malicious intent to incite racial hatred. Maybe if someone made a compliant against this guy to that effect, he might give it up, but I won't hold my breath. Double standards as Big C says & nothings going to change until thats adressed properly.

Ok I'm one of the ones that did change my name and it was after a long talk with some Jewish friends. I don't view it as anything more than a curtesy to them and it certainly won't change my opinion on anyone who does still want to use the term. If you really want to sort this out...(and remember I'm not English) then get a representative to go to the nearest and biggest synagouge to WHL and simply ask them how they feel about it.

I agree it sounds more than a little farcical that a group with an obviously racial name is trying to tell the rest of you what to think and I personally haven't seen more than the (very) occasional Jewish allusion to Mr Levy's purse strings on this site as evidence of any stereotypical disrepect.

As I said, it was a personal decsion and done out of respect for a friend after I did the very simple thing of asking them how THEY felt about it. If you want to keep using the term the world won't end and I won't think any less of you for it. I mean I already think your POMS, so how much worse could it get? (sarc) :-)

I find it bizarre that the head of a Racist Organisation is being given any kind of credability at all. Their leader makes nothing but asinine comments to grab headlines. Starve this hypocritical organisation and it's egotistical leader of the oxygen of publicity and they will disappear from whence they came.

Sorry, Ossie but this is exactly what the SBL is inadvertantly doing, perpetuating the myth that the only whites can be racist. The longer they go on, the more widespread that myth will become until it becomes an inherant belief (if it isn't already) that that is the actuality & then you'll see a massive upsurge in support for those hateful political groups like the BNP.

I know I'm a bit late on this thread but not all of these things are inherently racist. The MOBOs is not discriminating against anyone. Different cultures/races like different types of music and when you've got a country that is 80/90% white then those people who work really hard at their respective music grime/hiphop/rnb/bashment that isnt to the taste of the majority then they are never going to win an award. Ive followed people like Tinchy Stryder since from 2002 and he would pick up MOBOs but only when he made mainstream music did he get any recognition by the majority. MOBOs doesnt mean only mean black people can listen to it is just music with a black history. There are many white rappers (eminem, mac miller from US, or K Koke Benny Banks, The Streets) that can/have won MOBOs and same with Asian people like Jay Sean. Sorry if this sounds like a rant im just trying to help people understand

The other point is the SBL is similar whereby there are bound to be less black lawyers and I think they are just an organisation to help increase and promote more lawyers. However they're sticking their nose in a place it doesnt belong. They want to be seen to be doing something and covnersely they're attracting more stick and making people dislike them even more, when im sure they have good intentions. I think Peter Herbert is coming across as a knob and need to tackle real issues, that can actually make a difference.

I would hate to offend my fellow spurs supporters but the Jewish supporters i know don't get offended and neither do my Jewish friends who are not Spurs fans. Maybe Baddiel should have a word with the that not very funny comedian that dressed up in black face and put a pineapple on his head and destroyed the career and confience of Jason Lee. I wonder who that was again, no surprises he was a Chelsea fan aswell. What's that saying clean up your own garden before knocking on other people's doors. Also I dont understand how making a derogatory word into a postive word is a bad thing. Are they trying to preserve the offensive word. Im 22 and I have never ever heard the word yid used as an offensive term. EVER. I hear have heard people use the word 'Jew' to cause offense loads however. So maybe they should start banning that word.

Also regarding the Nigga v Yid issue the onyl difference Id say is that for as long as I have known**** has and is still used in an offensive way obviosuly taking intent/context into consideration, and like I mentioned Yid hasnt, so I dont think it would be quite the same if I football base adopted that as a chant haha. Not sure what others think. COYS