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Twitch Upcoming!

We're delaying our Twitch till AFTER a very specific KS update. You'll know what one, we'll talk about the twitch in the update. We need all hands to get this one ready.
Which still means something good is coming.https://www.twitch.tv/missingworldsmedia

valiance online

The animations have improved. It reminds me of CO with better rag dolls. Looks like VO will probably be a beefed up CO?

I am impressed that they even had the stream to begin with, so I am not going to be too judgemental. With Silverhelm, my expectations are "Are you going to do what you say?" regardless of the product, you could never trust these people with anything they say. For once they actually came through and I am dumbfounded. The character creator was probably the only solid aspect for me. Felt like they were right to hide the game as is. I guess devs know what they are doing when players ask for more, sometimes things are not ready to be shown publicly.

SoH still looking like the front runner. Their professionalism and background really shines through when comparing the three. I have no idea what Heroes & Villains are doing. I forgot they existed.

Still looks like a two horse race between CoT and SoH. VO is finally coming along, slowly. It may be a big three a few years from now. SoH looks ready, VO still needs a lot of work. The lack of funding is showing.VO will get there, but it will be a while. They are far off.

—

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

CoT and VO are the only ones that are saying/showing they will have original features/content. From what I heard/saw in the video I think the problem with VO right now is they are suffering a bit from feature creep. If they dial back some of their desires, 90 power sets and more pets than you can count just to name two, I think they would be a bit further along.

SoH hasn't shown or said anything original and some of their design seems to lack logic (foot stomp in an assault rifle type set?). I might be wrong but their new character model looks very much like a DAZ3D one. There isn't anything wrong with that, just an observation. They really seem to be rushing to the finish line to me. SoH might release first but all it's going to do is muddy the waters with an unoriginal MMO.

New stream from the devs of valiance.
They go into character creation a bit.

Decent, they are getting there. SoH still looks to be the front runner. They have the cache and professional development background, maybe that is why.

SoH is due to have the playable alpha out later this year. Should be interesting. I expect nothing but greatest from them, considering their development background and the fact that they always deliver on time. I do not recall them ever making a promise and pushing something back. They are very concrete. I don't see how, development is a shaky process. Props to them.

SoH is really trying to get out there first.

—

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

Brainbot wrote:
New stream from the devs of valiance.
They go into character creation a bit.
Decent, they are getting there. SoH still looks to be the front runner. They have the cache and professional development background, maybe that is why.
SoH is due to have the playable alpha out later this year. Should be interesting. I expect nothing but greatest from them, considering their development background and the fact that they always deliver on time. I do not recall them ever making a promise and pushing something back. They are very concrete. I don't see how, development is a shaky process. Props to them.SoH is really trying to get out there first.

Good luck to SoH!

I am going to wait for City of Tabbies, as I am emotionally invested in *this* game!

I agree with Phararri in regard to SoH. Not that some of their stuff doesn't look great but it looks like they are really focused on being the first to launch. I just sounds like it will be such a scaled down version of the final product. I'm ok with development after launch but it seems like it will be a skeleton of the final product.

I'm in the investor alpha right now. It is a bit underwhelming. I am especially disappointed with the character creator. Although they are posting artwork of a lot of new head gear designs on their facebook. So at least they're working on it. But the female character creator is basically non-functional. There is a glitch where the female character becomes topless for some reason, and she has realistic breasts with nipples. Even after the first patch. There is about less than a quarter of the powers that are actually functional in terms of animation. There is a lot of glitches and bugs to still work out, jumping to infinity for no reason, respawning as a ragdoll corpse that can move around and use powers somehow, partially functional missions, floating/swimming meters above the actual animated surface of water bodies, etc. So yea, it's definitely an alpha run, for sure.

In terms of overall contenders, I think that I am still iffy on VO, just because of the aesthetic, both of the character creation, and of the city itself. It's very dark and techie. The lore is also not very in depth...yet. Something about a meteor striking the planet and destroying the city, and then they rebuilt, and now they have nano technology that allows super powers. And elitist cyborg socialites have taken over. I dunno, it could be better. I think I will be looking with more excitement and anticipation to SoH and CoT. I was/am a bit worried about SoH rushing to release, but they seem to be very careful about not over-promising and staying on track with what they have promised. I like what I've seen a lot and the aesthetic and lore look very good. CoT obviously has been in development for a long time, but I am very much enjoying the new updates I am seeing, and really hope they can pull through with an alpha sometime this year or next.

I'm in the investor alpha right now. It is a bit underwhelming. I am especially disappointed with the character creator. Although they are posting artwork of a lot of new head gear designs on their facebook. So at least they're working on it. But the female character creator is basically non-functional. There is a glitch where the female character becomes topless for some reason, and she has realistic breasts with nipples. Even after the first patch. There is about less than a quarter of the powers that are actually functional in terms of animation. There is a lot of glitches and bugs to still work out, jumping to infinity for no reason, respawning as a ragdoll corpse that can move around and use powers somehow, partially functional missions, floating/swimming meters above the actual animated surface of water bodies, etc. So yea, it's definitely an alpha run, for sure.
.

Check Valiance forum, the bug section has lots of pictures posted. The jump bug was also in the livestream from July 15th. So not sure how they still haven't fixed it at this point. They must not know exactly what is causing it I guess.

I know its kind of crass to advertise another game here but I figured I would just let everyone know that Valiance has now started their next phase of testing for contributors only. As we are still a bit off from the alpha of CoT I wouldnt mind tinkering around a bit on another super powered game while I wait.

I agree with Phararri in regard to SoH. Not that some of their stuff doesn't look great but it looks like they are really focused on being the first to launch. I just sounds like it will be such a scaled down version of the final product. I'm ok with development after launch but it seems like it will be a skeleton of the final product.

Could this hurt them down the line? Gotta wonder

—

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

Fallout1 wrote:
I agree with Phararri in regard to SoH. Not that some of their stuff doesn't look great but it looks like they are really focused on being the first to launch. I just sounds like it will be such a scaled down version of the final product. I'm ok with development after launch but it seems like it will be a skeleton of the final product.
Could this hurt them down the line? Gotta wonder

It could very well do so since I think most of us will look more towards the games that are "fully featured" first rather than launched first.

Phararri wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:
I agree with Phararri in regard to SoH. Not that some of their stuff doesn't look great but it looks like they are really focused on being the first to launch. I just sounds like it will be such a scaled down version of the final product. I'm ok with development after launch but it seems like it will be a skeleton of the final product.
Could this hurt them down the line? Gotta wonder
It could very well do so since I think most of us will look more towards the games that are "fully featured" first rather than launched first.

To quote the team over at SoH:

"It is easier to make a small quality game into a large quality game than it is to make a large crappy game into a large quality game."

blacke4dawn wrote:
Phararri wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:
I agree with Phararri in regard to SoH. Not that some of their stuff doesn't look great but it looks like they are really focused on being the first to launch. I just sounds like it will be such a scaled down version of the final product. I'm ok with development after launch but it seems like it will be a skeleton of the final product.
Could this hurt them down the line? Gotta wonder
It could very well do so since I think most of us will look more towards the games that are "fully featured" first rather than launched first.
To quote the team over at SoH:
"It is easier to make a small quality game into a large quality game than it is to make a large crappy game into a large quality game."

Totally true but I see it more "small" more as the content rather than features.

Adding on features, especially core features, after initial launch is a major task and most often it doesn't go as down as good as they'd hope since the integration isn't smooth enough to not be noticeable or cause some "legacy" limitations.

One of the reasons I have great confidence in CoT is that I believe the team has done a lot of groundwork in building the game in a way that allows it to expand. Their ideas are ambitious and innovative, but they also demonstrate patience and an attitude of not biting off more than they can chew.

Look at what CoH launched with. No villains, let alone the ability to "go rogue", no bases, no pvp, far from all of the final powersets and archetypes, lvl 40 cap, no police scanner, etc. That's from a company like NCsoft, with millions at their disposal. So It's completely reasonable to add both features and content after release, even for a big company. Extrapolate that down to a small company working on the life savings of their CEO and donations, and it is actually quite impressive what SoH is planning to have at release, given the fact that they've only been in development for about a year and a half at this point. It's not as in depth as what CoT is planning, but then again, SoH has a confirmed alpha starting the end of december, and they have not missed a deadline yet, whereas CoT has unconfirmed rumors of an alpha this fall, and has had numerous delays. I'm not saying that these delays have not been justified, but it will be interesting to see which approach results in the most success in the end.

I don't disagree with anything you said; however, starting with only one or two zones with a level cap of 20, how many anxious gamers are going to get there quickly and how do you keep them interested while waiting for the first updates?

Guys, can we stop with the veiled trashing here? I just witnessed SoH having to defend their development model in a post because of people going in and continually picking on them. Some trolls have been joining the VO Alpha and using the opportunity to trash CoT. This needs to stop. In a bit over three weeks I am going to be sitting next to SoH's CEO. This is not some hollow gesture, but an attempt to point out that we are not enemies, or competitors. The market is stronger for all of us being within it.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Right on Doc. I hope nothing I said came across as trashing anything. I find it interesting to discuss and compare different development strategies. Diversity and friendly competition is a good thing. Who knows, maybe there can be some collaboration in the future between those with compatible engines. **wink wink nudge nudge**

I whole heartedly support any project in this space, and am looking forward to testing out what everyone has to offer.

Guys, can we stop with the veiled trashing here? I just witnessed SoH having to defend their development model in a post because of people going in and continually picking on them. Some trolls have been joining the VO Alpha and using the opportunity to trash CoT. This needs to stop. In a bit over three weeks I am going to be sitting next to SoH's CEO. This is not some hollow gesture, but an attempt to point out that we are not enemies, or competitors. The market is stronger for all of us being within it.

Never trashed VO or SoH and hopefully never will. BUT as one of your biggest fans and supporters I find myself obligated to again offer the suggestion that this dev team stick to this game and let others do the same.

Why care about trolls in VO and how are you going to stop them?

Why spend valuable development time "witnessing" and complaining about things happening at SoH?

Why are you upstaging SoH in Massively Overpowered with comments in nearly every thread? Regardless of intent, it comes across as patronizing.

You may not be enemies but you are competitors and the market will be shared (even to include people who feel you haven't/won't deliver).

You don't have to be mean. Most people don't like mean. But you are fighting a losing battle if you think you are going to put a lid on the strong views of others and all of us (the VO, CoT, and SoH communities) are going to join in song, lead by you, of the tune Kumbaya.

You need to consider your obligation to the over 5000 people who contributed to CoT and to those faithful volunteers who are working for you to bring CoT to life over your obligation to stifle the opinions of others about your game or any other. Your cries for "brotherhood" (in my case at least) are starting to have an opposite effect; worse than if you remained silent about any game other than your own.

The advice is free. Take it, leave it. Up to you. But at least I got something off my chest. Thanks for that.

Guys, can we stop with the veiled trashing here? I just witnessed SoH having to defend their development model in a post because of people going in and continually picking on them. Some trolls have been joining the VO Alpha and using the opportunity to trash CoT. This needs to stop. In a bit over three weeks I am going to be sitting next to SoH's CEO. This is not some hollow gesture, but an attempt to point out that we are not enemies, or competitors. The market is stronger for all of us being within it.

I don't know if any of this is directed at me, but in case there was any confusion over the intention of my post above, it was not meant as a slight against SoH. It wasn't meant to reference SoH at all. It was only meant as a genuine compliment to the CoT team. I believe you are honouring the legacy of City of Heroes while pushing into exciting new territory, and taking a realistic look at what you can deliver in a quality fashion at launch while developing a stylistic and mechanical framework that will allow you to significantly expand the game over time. No small feat.

Why spend valuable development time "witnessing" and complaining about things happening at SoH?
Why are you upstaging SoH in Massively Overpowered with comments in nearly every thread? Regardless of intent, it comes across as patronizing.

I am going to take a guess and say that there are friends (or at least peers) in the other projects and he is trying to support them since they are undertaking a similar effort. The outside voice can have some measure of impact so it doesn't appear that those under siege are just whining. Maybe there is a vested interest in the success of the other projects.

I personally don't give a crap about the other projects. I will only play them if CoT takes a significant nose dive or they don't deliver in the next ~16 months. If there is something shady going on behind the scenes and word gets out, I will be disappointed.

I don't see anything in SoH or VO to interest me the way CoT does, but I agree there's no need to bash them. However, I fail to see how these three efforts are anything but competitors. They will be three very similar products competing for the time and funds of a finite player base. They may be friendly competitors, but they are competitors nevertheless.

Not sure where I posted it before, but as I said then, the super-hero MMO is another genre and can support all 3 (or 4 if you count Heroes and Villains). How many different fantasy D&D style games are there or Call of Duty types. I've seen some good in all the potential successors and all can coexist with some level of success. There are going to be things that will draw people to one game over the other. I am willing to give all of them a try depending on the initial cost.

Cinnder wrote:
I don't see anything in SoH or VO to interest me the way CoT does....
Have you see this video?https://youtu.be/Sh5qGCVEfUM
When CoT starts putting out gameplay videos like this, I will start taking them seriously. I really want them to succeed, but so far, the evidence for serious progress is rather scant.

Faith is believing in someone/something even when you cannot see the full scope of that person or thing.

Not sure where I posted it before, but as I said then, the super-hero MMO is another genre and can support all 3 (or 4 if you count Heroes and Villains).

That may turn out to be true, but at this point no one has hard data to prove or disprove the theory. But even if the pie is large enough to support all these future superhero games plus the existing ones, that doesn't stop them from being competitors anyway.

Kid Rad wrote:

Have you see this video?https://youtu.be/Sh5qGCVEfUM
When CoT starts putting out gameplay videos like this, I will start taking them seriously. I really want them to succeed, but so far, the evidence for serious progress is rather scant.

The shiny stuff is easy enough to produce nowadays, and -- as Doc has shown with other games -- it's usually the last layer to be applied, which is why seeing lots of that elsewhere and the relative scarcity of that from MWM doesn't worry me. But it's the underlying concepts (both lore and design) of each game that makes me interested only in CoT. I have nothing against the others; they just don't look like they will give me the gaming experience I'm looking for.

There is no One True Way to develop any large scale software product, especially one with as many creative elements as a video game. Every studio will have their own project management models, techniques, and incremental products of work.

City of Titans and Ship of Heroes are taking very different approaches. CoT's model has made it easy for them to demonstrate parts of the whole in isolation, and slowly integrate as things advance. They just aren't to the point of full integration yet, so every demo will continue to look like a rough draft until suddenly one doesn't. SoH appears to be developing a cross-section of every high-level system on a very small scale, which makes for snazzier demos, but they still need to scale everything up. To me, they've proven that they can build something in Unreal Engine, but I can't yet see what that something will amount to beyond the elevator pitch.

On the gripping hand, we only get to see any of this, from these projects or Valiance Online, because they're crowdfunded. Privately-funded games don't have to show their work, only their finished product. If you've read any post-mortems on places like Gamastura*, you'd understand why.

* Or the heaps of scorn, ill will, and accusations of con artistry any of the Plan Zs have recieved on the forums of Other Games That Shall Not Be Named. Is there a long compound German word for "eagerly anticipating schadenfreude"?

This is not meant backhandedly towards any other project, only a comment on MWM, but if you really pay attention, do your homework, and look deeply (which is more than most people can be bothered to do), it is clear that MWM had the balls to take the hard road in a few different ways--working on deep underlying game elements first and in parallel rather than shiny to show people, changing to UE 4 and so having to make unpopular schedule push-backs so that the tech had more capabilities and wouldn't be dated at launch, etc.--and so subjected themselves to exactly the scorn that SisterSilicone is talking about above, and all of this so that they would have the best chance of giving us a truly great and lasting game in the end.

I for one respect the crap out of them for that and am genuinely grateful.

Honestly, I wish we had the staff to have people to dedicate to pretty things. It would take two men about a week to pull off such a feat. But if two men appeared tomorrow, I have more important areas to put them, like the quest builder.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Honestly, I wish we had the staff to have people to dedicate to pretty things. It would take two men about a week to pull off such a feat. But if two men appeared tomorrow, I have more important areas to put them, like the quest builder.

I appreciate that. I realize the staffing constraints. But I will just say that I think you are dramatically underestimating the importance of marketing and PR. There is still no concrete answer on when exactly alpha will begin (aside from an off the cuff youtube comment), let alone how close you are to the target of a 2018 beta. There has been progress shown in the recent videos, but no real metrics of what that means in the scheme of things. I totally understand that all of this takes time, but if you were able to communicate specific goals that you have, with dates, and then show proof that you are meeting those goals (as some of your competitors are doing), I get the sense that it would do a lot to silence the critics. I believe you are doing what you claim to be doing, and am totally rooting for your project. But I also understand those who have their doubts. I hope you can prove them wrong in the end, but in the mean time, I think we would all appreciate some more communication and goal oriented specificity. Even if you say "here is the scope of where we are, and after all, it won't be ready till 2019 or 2020", I would be like "awesome, good to know, I'm pumped". Honesty and communication are never a bad thing.

I appreciate that. I realize the staffing constraints. But I will just say that I think you are dramatically underestimating the importance of marketing and PR. There is still no concrete answer on when exactly alpha will begin (aside from an off the cuff youtube comment), let alone how close you are to the target of a 2018 beta. There has been progress shown in the recent videos, but no real metrics of what that means in the scheme of things. I totally understand that all of this takes time, but if you were able to communicate specific goals that you have, with dates, and then show proof that you are meeting those goals (as some of your competitors are doing), I get the sense that it would do a lot to silence the critics. I believe you are doing what you claim to be doing, and am totally rooting for your project. But I also understand those who have their doubts. I hope you can prove them wrong in the end, but in the mean time, I think we would all appreciate some more communication and goal oriented specificity. Even if you say "here is the scope of where we are, and after all, it won't be ready till 2019 or 2020", I would be like "awesome, good to know, I'm pumped". Honesty and communication are never a bad thing.

It seems clear from MWM's recent statements that a) the currently stated timeframes are still the goal, b) as a goal they will be challenging but should be doable, and c) they are further along than those who judge mainly by visuals think.

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Honestly, I wish we had the staff to have people to dedicate to pretty things. It would take two men about a week to pull off such a feat. But if two men appeared tomorrow, I have more important areas to put them, like the quest builder.
I appreciate that. I realize the staffing constraints. But I will just say that I think you are dramatically underestimating the importance of marketing and PR. There is still no concrete answer on when exactly alpha will begin (aside from an off the cuff youtube comment), let alone how close you are to the target of a 2018 beta. There has been progress shown in the recent videos, but no real metrics of what that means in the scheme of things. I totally understand that all of this takes time, but if you were able to communicate specific goals that you have, with dates, and then show proof that you are meeting those goals (as some of your competitors are doing), I get the sense that it would do a lot to silence the critics. I believe you are doing what you claim to be doing, and am totally rooting for your project. But I also understand those who have their doubts. I hope you can prove them wrong in the end, but in the mean time, I think we would all appreciate some more communication and goal oriented specificity. Even if you say "here is the scope of where we are, and after all, it won't be ready till 2019 or 2020", I would be like "awesome, good to know, I'm pumped". Honesty and communication are never a bad thing.

I'll be honest, if it were my call, I'd have a big banner across the top of the website showing all pieces of this project and their current status. That way at any point, everyone could see how things are going.

—

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

I'm a backer of both CoT and VO. I haven't developed much interest in SoH.

I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude with all three, but at the moment, and consistently since the Kickstarter (however many years ago that was), I've had by far the highest hopes for CoT.

First of all, and most fundamentally, I just don't get the impulse so many people seem to have that they need to "pick" one of the three NOW. That's *insane*, and totally unnecessary. Bashing one or the other based on a flashy (or not-so-flashy) video is laughable. Those of us who've followed CoT closely for a long time see the progress they've made. And most importantly we see the groundwork being laid for a complete game. VO is letting people play (and has, off and on, for several years now) but what they've shown is hardly ready for prime-time. SoH, I haven't followed closely. If they open things up to testers or pre-release of some sort, then I'll probably take a look. Why pick one of the three now? Why root for one and bash the other two? What is there to be gained by that? Do people so desperately need something to argue about?

My hopes for CoT are based on a number of factors. For one, they are putting lots of effort into lore and creating a *world*, not just a system. To me, that's huge. VO has elements of that, but it's discouraging to see that their current alpha has the same dozen or so missions that their original alpha had several years ago, with few noticable changes or improvements. Hopefully that will change as they get their alpha stabilized.

But from a purely business standpoint, MWM is the organization that seems to me to be built for the long haul. Important fact: CoT isn't begging for money. They've got Hijinx, and they're selling t-shirts, but as for trying to get people to donate to or buy the game itself, they've held off. In fact, they've conspicuously NOT asked for money. People have asked for a 2nd Kickstarter -forever-, but MWM have held off, because they've built their development model to maximize the money they already have. That may make things slower, but it also makes them sustainable.

MMOs vanish for exactly one reason: They run out of money. That can happen at any point in development or after release. Of the 3 CoH successor projects that seem to be making progress right now, CoT has given me the most confidence that they are managing their finances wisely. Having a volunteer staff obviously helps that, but all three games seem to be volunteer efforts to a greater or lesser extent.

I'll continue to try both VO and CoT, and probably will take a look at SoH at some point. I might even play two or even all three of them after release. But having had my favorite game yanked out from under me (as so many of us did), I'm looking for an -organization- and a development model that looks sustainable, and isn't going to suddenly go belly up from lack of support or $$$$. I have far more confidence in MWM in that regard than I do in the other two games combined.

But it's the underlying concepts (both lore and design) of each game that makes me interested only in CoT. I have nothing against the others; they just don't look like they will give me the gaming experience I'm looking for.

This is my position as well. I'm interested to see what the other projects come up with gameplay-wise, and am looking forward to how they tackle creating something "CoH-like" in their own way. But I like the foundation-laying that MWM has done, and the setting I want to play in most is CoT's world.

With Fallout1, I also agree. I think it will naturally play out that one or two may rise to the top and hopefully take some of the best ideas from the rest of the pack to make themselves even better.

Personally I was hoping Redside would have been more successful with their kickstarter. I thoroughly enjoyed playing redside in CoV and was looking forward to seeing what they could do with a next-generation successor to it. Hopefully some of their ideas will not go to waste and maybe get picked up in the other successor projects.

With Fallout1, I also agree. I think it will naturally play out that one or two may rise to the top and hopefully take some of the best ideas from the rest of the pack to make themselves even better.

I am going to mention it again, because I really hope it can happen somehow, that I wish there was someway for CoT and SoH to collaborate. I know they're set it two totally different time periods and settings and overall game mechanics, but maybe there can be a story arc that someone from the SoH time period constructs a time portal, and people are able to teleport between time periods. I dunno, just a thought. I know it will never happen, but one can dream. :)

Huckleberry wrote:
With Fallout1, I also agree. I think it will naturally play out that one or two may rise to the top and hopefully take some of the best ideas from the rest of the pack to make themselves even better.
I am going to mention it again, because I really hope it can happen somehow, that I wish there was someway for CoT and SoH to collaborate. I know they're set it two totally different time periods and settings and overall game mechanics, but maybe there can be a story arc that someone from the SoH time period constructs a time portal, and people are able to teleport between time periods. I dunno, just a thought. I know it will never happen, but one can dream. :)

It would be Hella fun and perfectly appropriate to classic comics genre for them to be alternate reality pasts/futures of eachother. They can't be a single timeline with CoT as the present, Valiance as the near future, and Ship of Heroes as the far future because the lores are different, but when you factor in alternate realities (a convenient plot staple of classic comics of all ages), no problems with crossovers.

I'd love a crossover, with SoH definitely...have to think about the others. Many of my characters would fit right in when it comes to some far future / time travel / alternate reality dimension hopping.

I'll be honest, if it were my call, I'd have a big banner across the top of the website showing all pieces of this project and their current status. That way at any point, everyone could see how things are going.

Doctor Tyche wrote:
I'll be honest, if it were my call, I'd have a big banner across the top of the website showing all pieces of this project and their current status. That way at any point, everyone could see how things are going.
oh yay more work for me

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
I'll be honest, if it were my call, I'd have a big banner across the top of the website showing all pieces of this project and their current status. That way at any point, everyone could see how things are going.
oh yay more work for me
*takes a snooze atop Lin's computer, her prehensile tail tap-tap-tapping the keyboard *quite* innocently*

* walks back in, reads the screen

... "katt demands tuna"

Nice try. You know there's no tuna before powers practice. Now get to it.

First of all, and most fundamentally, I just don't get the impulse so many people seem to have that they need to "pick" one of the three NOW. That's *insane*, and totally unnecessary. Bashing one or the other based on a flashy (or not-so-flashy) video is laughable.

Yep, I totally agree. I would imagine some of it is to do with emotional as well as financial investment in a particular project. I've backed all three financially and I'll be giving each of them a go. I must admit that I'm a bit nervous in a way - if two or all three end up as really great games then it'll possibly split the community. :(

I can't help feeling that some of the venting on all the forums is just borne out of pure frustration. It's been a long time, a lot of us still feel robbed and just want our game and community back. It's insane to put all your chips on one game, though.

I think a lot of us want slightly different things so fragmentation is going to happen whether we like it or not.

Solari: I prefer to keep a positive mental attitude. If CoT does turn out to be a bust, then it looks like I'll lose big, because I am placing *all* my chips on CoT being in the black, rather than in the red that some naysayers are trying to promote as vaporware. I'll either win big or go broke. I am certainly "going for broke", though.

I will be waiting at the finish line, waiting to pour champagne on the Devs in the Winner's Circle. Tally Ho!

[Those are all the gambling and sports metaphors of which I am acquainted!]

Solari:
I will be waiting at the finish line, waiting to pour champagne on the Devs in the Winner's Circle. Tally Ho!
[Those are all the gambling and sports metaphors of which I am acquainted!]

Hey Amerikatt,

Well you won't really lose much more than a bit of money and perhaps a little pride in all honesty if the worst case scenario happens. Not supporting a project doesn't exclude you from participating in a final release. ;)

Not contributing to a kick-starter or whatever doesn't make you some sort of Johnny-come-lately freeloading heathen. Hopefully I'll dish out the beat-down on the bad guys in one realm or another with you sometime. :)

I think CoT will be fine but in all honesty they maybe underestimated the amount of grief promising so much so early would create. Enthusiasm over pragmatism if you like. ;) If only other KS projects had learned from that...

I certainly won't badmouth either of the other spiritual successors if they draw more players to their game. Different people are attracted to different aspects of the same broad genre. I must admit that I was considering at least *trying* Ship of Heroes. However, it appears to be more "Ship" than "Hero", so I may pass. I have no interest in a spaceship game [though I would love a CoT expansion which opens up the spaceways for exploration. (*Mr. Boots voice*) "It's crazy, no?!"]

When I first heard of Ship Of Heroes I thought it was the dumbest thing I had heard in a long time. However when I think of it in terms of Ringworld by Larry Niven it occurs to me that the ship could be the size of several Earths. For those unfamiliar with it the idea is an intermediary step to a Dyson sphere. Jupiter, for instance, could be used to make a ring around the sun. The ring could have a diameter of one Earth orbit, be a million miles wide, and a thousand meters thick. A ring like that would have a surface area 3 millions times that of the Earth. It occurs to me that an intelligent race could eventually build a ship on that scale and head to new stars when theirs is dying. With all that space and a few calamities over several thousand years I could see how there would be ample fodder for origin stories.

I'm not trying to pick any "winners". That seems like thinking Iron Man, Wolverine, or Spider Man will dominate the box office to the exclusion of all other super stories. I think there's enough appetite for them all. I hope all three are good and shift the whole market. Market forces should then cause others to improve or expire.

Hero Zero: You and I both know that the Squirrel Girl movie is going to blow away any movie with Iron Man, Wolverine, *and* Spider Man!
In fact, the *only* way that a Squirrel Girl movie could be *anything* less than awesome is if JJ "Lens Flare" Abrams is attached in *any* way to the project!
*sage nod*

Is this a dig at the new MWM intro on their youtube videos?? I worked hard on that lens flare... BAD KITTY! :/

Amerikatt wrote:
Hero Zero: You and I both know that the Squirrel Girl movie is going to blow away any movie with Iron Man, Wolverine, *and* Spider Man!
In fact, the *only* way that a Squirrel Girl movie could be *anything* less than awesome is if JJ "Lens Flare" Abrams is attached in *any* way to the project!
*sage nod*
Is this a dig at the new MWM intro on their youtube videos?? I worked hard on that lens flare... BAD KITTY! :/

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:
Hero Zero: You and I both know that the Squirrel Girl movie is going to blow away any movie with Iron Man, Wolverine, *and* Spider Man!
In fact, the *only* way that a Squirrel Girl movie could be *anything* less than awesome is if JJ "Lens Flare" Abrams is attached in *any* way to the project!
*sage nod*
Is this a dig at the new MWM intro on their youtube videos?? I worked hard on that lens flare... BAD KITTY! :/
*hears "bad kitty" in Mr. Boots' voice*
[Fast-forward to :47; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFpiU4KoPxA ]
*swoons*
[Wolfie: I have commented in Post #41 of *this* thread: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/mwm-intro#comment-125976 ]

It's really important to recall that these are our friends, not our rivals. I am very pleased with how far they've gone.

I love the camaraderie in the dev posts on both teams. I have supported both projects and will continue to do so because there has been a dearth of super hero MMOs for long enough(well, at least ones I like).

Terwyn wrote:
It's really important to recall that these are our friends, not our rivals. I am very pleased with how far they've gone.
I love the camaraderie in the dev posts on both teams. I have supported both projects and will continue to do so because there has been a dearth of super hero MMOs for long enough(well, at least ones I like).

Thank The Great (Cat) Mother that Amerikatt Online (aka City of Tabbies) will be launching in November 2018 (yet something else for which to be thankful)!

My background is in theatre, and it's commonly understood that with theatre in particular, and with the arts & entertainment market in general, increased availability increases the size of the customer base. If there's only one venue in a town, it often struggles to keep a consistent audience. But if there are several, they feed off each other, and the available audience grows. People see a show they like at one, and then they go try another show at another. People get into a theatre habit.

The same thing happens to a greater or lesser extent in other types of business. Most people don't realize that when IBM introduced their first PC, Apple's sales actually went UP. Demand for computers increased across the board.

Similarly, when WoW eventually took off and got huge, the whole MMO market grew. Lots of people play multiple MMOs in similar genres. I've played both LOTRO and WoW, and tried out several other "sword & sorcery" games that didn't manage to hold my interest.

So while VO, CoT, SoH, and H&V may all be in the same genre, there seems to be a level of demand out there that isn't being met by CO, or whatever else. I don't think it's necessarily going to be a case of "the best will eventually win out". I think it's more likely to be a case of the good ones will last and the bad ones will fade away. Ideally, each will find a sustainable niche. We'll see.

And in the meantime just the presence of multiple titles will likely increase the interest in and exposure for all of them. To a certain degree, that's already happening. I would never have found out about VO if I hadn't stumbled onto CoT's Kickstarter, way back when. Now I'm a backer of both games.

I recently got a new computer, and while it's true that I was playing GW2 on my old one like every day, I haven't even installed it on the new one. I recently logged in on the laptop and converted all of my gold (which is subject to inflation) into raw crafting materials (which will hopefully preserve their value over time) in an effort to mothball my characters for a while. They just rolled out a new expansion, and my interest level has dropped to the point where I don't feel like buying it or really even playing at all anymore. This is after a year. My friend who convinced me to start playing GW2 "so we can play together" ghosted after like a month. I may pull the trigger on Destiny 2, at the same friend's suggestion, and I will likely not play that for more than a year. If Mechwarrior online had any kind of non-PVP mode where you just fight against the NPCs in a campaign or something, I would have tried that and probably dropped it long ago.

My point is, even while games are up and running they get people wafting in and out of them a lot. Also, games themselves have finite life spans. CoX got killed after like 8 years, and it was still actually money-positive at the time. I don't imagine DCUO, Marvel Online, and Champs Online will be a big distraction, mostly because I could play those games NOW if I wanted to and still get them out of my system before CoT releases for real anyway. Added to that there's the real possibility that one or more of them goes defunct in the meantime, citing flagging revenues, as they inevitably all do.

As for the other projects still cooking up their ideas, all I can say is, as time goes on and I read more about them, I have less faith in them actually being successful in the future than I do in this project, and I'm not 100% on this project, so what chance do they realistically have? Not to dump on anyone's parade, but in a world where some people who play MMOs still view spandex-wearing superheroes as "silly and childish" as compared to paladins and dragons, putting the whole thing on a freaking spaceship makes the inherent premise of the game even less believable and makes that game seem way less likely to succeed, to me. Some people like "gritty noir" style superheroes, like Daredevil and Punisher. There's not much room for that on a spaceship, if you ask me.

Now it is January 2018. I was extremely hard on the game, despite being its' biggest fan earlier. I took a break from this thread to see if things improve, because I did feel as if I was hard on VO. With that said, from the last post in August, until now, VO has been virtually silent within the media. This game seems to be slowly dying out. Anyone know if they were at the PAX event?

City of Titans and Ship of heroes were pretty active on the media outlet sites, including Youtube. Official VO news has been void for some time now. I do remember them partaking in the Hurricane aid, and that is about it. Great gesture on their part.

—

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

It's really important to recall that these are our friends, not our rivals. I am very pleased with how far they've gone.

Wow. No personal offense intended at you, the folks at VO, or anyone else, but this statement makes very little sense to me because I recall no such thing... and exactly why is it really important?... And how are they not your rivals (other than you say so because if it walks like a duck etc.)? Can you define "our" (you as a dev team are friends with VO as a dev team OR all of us as a CoT community are friends with the VO community and if so how can that be?). Let's say you as a corporation are successful and they as a corporation aren't... are you planning some kind of bail out of your friends?

My point is and always has been that it boils down to friends are friends and business is business. I still don't get how you guys manage to reconcile all this in your own minds... let alone expect the rest of us to toe the same illogical line whenever a discouraging word is uttered about VO or SoH. I hate being the bad guy here because I have no axe to grind against VO per se... just with what I see as your warped perception of them or being patronized about who I am suppose to befriend (if that is what you are trying to do).

Wow. No personal offense intended at you, the folks at VO, or anyone else, but this statement makes very little sense to me because I recall no such thing... and exactly why is it really important?... And how are they not your rivals (other than you say so because if it walks like a duck etc.)? Can you define "our" (you as a dev team are friends with VO as a dev team OR all of us as a CoT community are friends with the VO community and if so how can that be?). Let's say you as a corporation are successful and they as a corporation aren't... are you planning some kind of bail out of your friends?

My point is and always has been that it boils down to friends are friends and business is business. I still don't get how you guys manage to reconcile all this in your own minds... let alone expect the rest of us to toe the same illogical line whenever a discouraging word is uttered about VO or SoH. I hate being the bad guy here because I have no axe to grind against VO per se... just with what I see as your warped perception of them or being patronized about who I am suppose to befriend (if that is what you are trying to do).

I think that statement comes from the disconnect between what we are expecting and what the devs intended.

Remember that in the beginning, this wasn't about business. It was about a bunch of like-minded people all trying to do the same thing. But because of creative differences they ended up working in parallel rather than together. Many of the staff at MWM still think of themselves as a volunteer effort and not a business. The most glaring example of this in my mind is MWM's insistence that they didn't need any more money up until a month or so ago. Apparently, it never occurred to MWM that more money would allow them to hire full-time professionals. So, no, to MWM this is not a business competition, it is a just a few parallel efforts by friends to try to make a game. This is why they haven't gotten any money from me yet. I'll support Hijinx, but until they take the business side of this game seriously, I'm not buying stock in it.

Thanks Doc, I actually found a pax video of the panel. From the looks of it, VO is a 2020 project. I always thought they were far off from public participation. In comparison, SoH is vastly superior, and further ahead (As I mentioned and got burned for lol). This is evident by them rarely, if ever missing a road map promise. They do everything they set out to do, and meet every demand they outline for their supporters. I am still waiting for that VO Steam release which was promised in 2016.

Thanks for the video cyan, but that appears to be done by a fan, because a VO dev thanked him for the exposure afterwards. SoH releases official content, as MWM does also, which is what I am referring to. Not a streamer.

In regards to Fire Away's comment, it is like a hand shake before a UFC, boxing, or some other combat event. So sportsmanship, then proceed to rip each other apart. It is all for sportsmanship. Even countries at war show some sort of copassion, but they are still willing to take civilian lives in exchange for destroying the real threat. Put a lie detector before each team, and ask if they want the others' fans lol. Of course they do, of course they are rivals. They can display sportsmanship, for now..

—

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

Personally, I’m not after any of the fans of any of the other games being made. And while it is my personal optinion, I believe that to be an accurate pulse of the majority ofnour team as well.

If anything, I view their successes as motivation for us to succeed. Competition can and should spur of innovation. Dominance can lend itself to repetitiveness and stagnation. So in my view, it is good the other games are being worked on. Let us stand on our own meeits without having to spur an us vs them mentatility. Let the fans decide for themselves which game or games best suits their tastes, which best entertains them.

I know the fear is that the market can’t bear competition. That the interest in a supet-mmo isn’t significant enough to support multiple games in the same theme. The thing is, no one cannsay with certainty this is fact, not even anneducated guess. If anything it is opinion supported by conjecture of looking at one singular example.

Something different is happening here with these multiplr super-games. And the outcome may be different than what others expect by looking back and making assumptions of the future.

Again I say, let each game and company stand by their own merits. Hope that more than one game is successful, so that each continues to be encouraged to innovate and put out their very best efforts over time.

This is again, my personal view of the matter, not as a representative of the company for which I volunteer.

Also, there are a couple of reasons we haven’t sought additional funds. It is actually a conversation that has been ongoing for several years and not something thatnhas recently occurred to our business team.

For one, we currently have professionals from various fields already volunteering their time to this game. Seeking outside employees is no simple matter when you must be aware of who is currently putting effort free of charge for which their skill set can demand funds.

Another major reason is to not ask fans for more funds until there is something significant to show as progress based on the previous funds recieved. We’ve been close to this stage for a while now, and several times have been hit with unexpected setbacks. I believe our business team has handled the financial situation very wisely in this regard.

Now I understand the desire for someone to step foreard and with boldness to declare their work of passion “the definitive game to play”. Those that hold this opinion (or one similar to it) have this opinion because of their passion for the game that was and the hope of what could be. I don’t begrudge them of their opinion because of thst passion. Just please don’t mistake our kindness toward fellow passionate game designers for lack of business acumen, lack of passion for our work, or lack of appreciation for your passion.

—

I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic - Tech Team.

If anything, I view their successes as motivation for us to succeed. Competition can and should spur of innovation. Dominance can lend itself to repetitiveness and stagnation. So in my view, it is good the other games are being worked on. Let us stand on our own meeits without having to spur an us vs them mentality. Let the fans decide for themselves which game or games best suits their tastes, which best entertains them.

I know the fear is that the market can’t bear competition. That the interest in a super-mmo isn’t significant enough to support multiple games in the same theme. The thing is, no one can say with certainty this is fact, not even an educated guess. If anything it is opinion supported by conjecture of looking at one singular example.

I love this attitude. I also agree about waiting and seeing whether the market can support multiple super hero mmos. The number of fantasy MMOs is in the stratosphere but a different genre can't support 2 or 3 at the same time? You are right, no one knows for a fact. Speaking for myself, I do know I will be playing at least two, VO and CoT and who is to say I just don't switch to one or the other when I get bored. As much as I loved CoH, I would still get bored of it and play something else, returning a month or so later. I did that for 8 years. I think any company would love to have a consumer like that.

Now I understand the desire for someone to step foreard and with boldness to declare their work of passion “the definitive game to play”. Those that hold this opinion (or one similar to it) have this opinion because of their passion for the game that was and the hope of what could be. I don’t begrudge them of their opinion because of thst passion. Just please don’t mistake our kindness toward fellow passionate game designers for lack of business acumen, lack of passion for our work, or lack of appreciation for your passion.

Not going to question anyone's acumen, that is a personal attack. I am simply saying the notion that teams secretly do not want the others team's fans is just for show, or sportsmanship. I don't think there is a single soul whom buys into the notion that any organization is ok with sharing fans, in turn, sharing revenue.

Hypothetically, when SoH releases, and if they get millions of subs, while VO has a few hundred. I doubt VO is willing to share their fans with them, but rather, how can we take or attract some.

—

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

1. Process of elimination. Valiance and SoH both are doing a futuristic setting, with Valiance being more grounded in the 2099 genre which I could go on and on about how much I dislike it and SoH being HEROES. IN. SPAAAAAAAAAAACE which again, on and on about how much I dislike it. Give me Silver Age or at least Modern Age that acts like Silver Age any day.

2. The world has lore. Lots of it. The main reason I stuck with CoH (aside from the powers) was that it had a world that I genuinely liked. Same with Champions (despite the game not actually USING more than like.. 10% of the setting). Titan City actually has a story and the little we've gotten of it is enjoyable.