The World After Bush's "Apology"

This is a good link containing the charges from the leading human rights organisations that Bush will choose to ignore.

But there are some really telling statements from the Bush admin and counterterrorism 'policy makers' in it, like the statement "there was a before
a 9/11 - after 9/11 the gloves are off". Some of the statements which attempt to legitimise practices of torture leave sanity behind, and they simply
align with Bush's stupid "You are either with us or against us" as a precursor to the US and his admin being unaccountable for anything.

This material will help define what is acceptable practice and what is not acceptable practice in detention in your own mind, it is worth a read
(there is a wealth of info at the link).

We are deeply disturbed by the photos of the treatment of prisoners by U.S. soldiers and interrogators and welcome your public condemnation of those
acts. But more than statements are required. We write to urge you to take decisive and immediate action to address a problem that we believe is not an
isolated incident, but rather illustrates a dangerous and illegal system of interrogation and detention in use by the United States in many places
around the world. As representatives of a number of major human rights organizations we request a meeting with you on an urgent basis to discuss our
recommendations for dealing with this problem.

For the past year and a half, The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, USA Today, Newsday, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Christian Science
Monitor, and other leading newspapers have repeatedly quoted unnamed U.S. intelligence officials boasting about the use of torture and other
ill-treatment of prisoners. Numerous detainees have been killed or attempted suicide in custody in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay prompting
unprecedented expressions of concern by the International Committee of the Red Cross; suspects have been turned over to the foreign intelligence
services of countries, such as Syria, with records of brutal torture; the ICRC has also specifically expressed concern about conditions at Abu Ghraib
prison in Iraq; and now, the US military's own inquiry has found "systemic and illegal abuse of detainees" at Abu Ghraib.

These incidents occurred across continents and over many months, but they are nevertheless linked. As Cofer Black, the head of the CIA's
Counterterrorism Center, told Congress in September 2002: "There was a before 9/11, and there was an after 9/11 .... After 9/11 the gloves come
off." Since then, intelligence officials have said repeatedly that they have a mandate to obtain information by "breaking" prisoners through a
combination of pain and humiliation, if not outright torture. The sexual humiliation of prisoners now documented at Abu Ghraib was extreme, but not
new. More than a year ago, The New York Times quoted prisoners held in Afghanistan saying that they were kept naked most of the time. Likewise, there
have been numerous reports of female guards and interrogators used in a deliberate attempt to humiliate and degrade prisoners....

So, in a nutshell, the practices have been known about, reported on, and condoned for years. You know that Rumsfeld and Bush are pathological liars,
even if you don't admit it.

To the 75 people who read this thread before this post, and to those who voted on it to try to suppress interest in it, thank you.

To judge what should happen you need to understand Geneva conventions and how far up the chain the abuses were known about, as early as January 2004
and before. In this matter Rumsfeld and Bush are lying.

The effect of the Iraqi prison abuses on the psyche of pro-war people, and the raging discussion (including defence of the abuses) around many
discussion boards, has been extraordinary. It is just one more catalyst for change.

Whether Republicans like it or not, if George Bush is elected in the fall, the entire world will view the election as American approval of the torture
and sexual humiliation of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison. It might not be fair, it might not be reasonable, but it is nevertheless reality.
Apologies, prosecutions, firings and courts martial will not be enough to expunge the stain this scandal has placed on the honor of the United States.
The pictures are simply too graphic. The abuses are simply too horrible. If George Bush is elected President, the entire world will view the election,
at a minimum, as tacit approval of these events.

This election will thus no longer merely determine the Presidency. This election is now much larger than the office. The United State’s place in the
family of nations is now on the ballot. This election will determine whether the United States will ever again have any standing or moral authority in
the rest of the world. The United States cannot simultaneously stand against depraved sexual torture and the wanton abuse of human rights, while
electing the commander in chief upon whose watch these events occurred. The seven hundred thousand or so viewers of Fox News may be able to
rationalize such cognitive dissonance; the six billion people who make up the remainder of the world will not....

(The article continues with stuff on the key role of the USA in the development of a peaceful world today).

Bush Apology Sparks Torrent of Global Goodwill
IMAMS: "YOU HAD US AT 'SORRY'"

Washington - The recent apology of US President George W. Bush for abuses by American military prison guards continued to reverberate around the globe
today, as the White House was again inundated with with a flurry of "apology accepted" notes from world media, governmental leaders, and Islamic
fundamentalist clerics.

We can only hope so... However good this news may seem I think that there are many within the arab/muslim world who will only continue to fan the
flames of anger, hatred, and rage.

This series of events and abuses and the impact will take a lot of time to deal with on all sides.

Just the name of the place sounds almost evil "Abu Ghraib prison" in a way similar to the names of nazi camps... Although the nazi camps were far
worse than anything we've seen at Abu Ghraib prison, for the Iraqis this has been a place of evil unspeakable acts Under both Saddam's regime and
the US occupation forces.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I'm convinced this type of behavior occurred reasonably often over the past 40 years.

It's just that now, we have digital cameras and the Internet.

Information happens.

I agree. There have always been lesser educated, redneck, trailer park trash types in the military. Atrocities, such as these, just never made the
news before. Even now, if there were no pictures, it would be so easy to deny it ever happened, and you can bet they would. I find it kind of funny
that these idiots' stupidity, taking pictures of themselves, is the very thing that got them into this mess. It's not bad enough that they were
obviously enjoying it, but they also wanted to record the moments for bragging rights.

I agree. There have always been lesser educated, redneck, trailer park trash types in the military. Atrocities, such as these, just never made the
news before. Even now, if there were no pictures, it would be so easy to deny it ever happened, and you can bet they would. I find it kind of funny
that these idiots' stupidity, taking pictures of themselves, is the very thing that got them into this mess. It's not bad enough that they were
obviously enjoying it, but they also wanted to record the moments for bragging rights.

I agree as well Satyr

Every country has it's pile of dog doo like this in there back yard but it is always lowkey and just a few,
It just happens that Bushie stepped in a pile that was on the lawn of the White House, and now it's all over his Boot, and the wolrd can see it
rubbed over the White House rugs

I came across this peice today, it just kills me at how two faced the bush gangsta crowed really are

During his invasion of Iraq, George W. Bush warned Iraqis about their treatment of American prisoners of war on 23 March 2003: “I expect them to be
treated, the POWs, I expect to be treated humanely, just like we’re treating the prisoners that we have captured humanely. If not, the people who
mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals.”

A Bush radio address on 5 April 2003 claimed “...the citizens of Iraq are coming to know what kind of people we have sent to liberate them. American
forces and our allies are treating innocent civilians with kindness and showing proper respect to the soldiers who surrender. The people of the United
States are proud of the honorable conduct of our military. And I am proud to lead such brave and decent Americans.”

In view of the Abu Ghraib human rights violations and the Fallujah Massacre, these comments are ironic at best. Support, permission, defense, and
authorization for the use of torture came from the absolute highest levels of the Bush government, including the president himself. What is more
astonishing and revelatory is the active and intentional participation of religious Christians in top-secret policy making which led to torture and
crimes against humanity. Some of the names are familiar, such as Bush and Ashcroft, but others are less well known, such as Walker and Bybee. Read more

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