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I don't like the sound of this, and I wish developers would stop trying to copy WoW. I wonder how many more MMORPGs are going to have to fail trying to mimic WoW before they realize it's not the game play aspects that make WoW so successful. If LOTRO really wants to copy something from WoW, they should start by copying their lag-free servers and excellent cross-server instance finder. I'm convinced these are the real reasons WoW remains so popular. I doubt it's their awesome skill trees.

Your post makes an apt correlation though, and Captains will almost certainly go the way of the Paladin if skill trees are introduced, and that's a shame, at least from my perspective. So I definitely agree with you that this isn't a great thing for LOTRO.

Actually, WoW no longer uses trees but a more streamlined linear system of some kind (obviously long after I quit). Apparently the trees were bloated, difficult to balance, and too cookie-cutter. So Turbine would be very late to the party if they're trying to emulate WoW now.

Actually, WoW no longer uses trees but a more streamlined linear system of some kind (obviously long after I quit). Apparently the trees were bloated, difficult to balance, and too cookie-cutter. So Turbine would be very late to the party if they're trying to emulate WoW now.

I played for a couple of weeks on my paladin after the panda expansion came out and the new system basically amounts to the same thing in practice. You just pick which tree you want up front - Healing, DPS, or tanking - and it automatically gives you all of the best abilities that are associated with each role. They then allow you to choose between different and lesser talents as you level up. So your character is still defined almost completely by the tree (or role, which ever term you are more comfortable with) you pick. So I think your comparison with WoW and how the "specialization" of trees ended up being the death of support classes is still valid, even in the current system.

Basically all Blizzard did was make the old "cookie-cutter" builds automatic and mandatory. So there is even less variety in builds on WoW now than there was. It's pretty lame in my opinion, and I feel more like a tool for the developers than an actual paladin when I play that game.

I played for a couple of weeks on my paladin after the panda expansion came out and the new system basically amounts to the same thing in practice. You just pick which tree you want up front - Healing, DPS, or tanking - and it automatically gives you all of the best abilities that are associated with each role. They then allow you to choose between different and lesser talents as you level up. So your character is still defined almost completely by the tree (or role, which ever term you are more comfortable with) you pick. So I think your comparison with WoW and how the "specialization" of trees ended up being the death of support classes is still valid, even in the current system.

Basically all Blizzard did was make the old "cookie-cutter" builds automatic and mandatory. So there is even less variety in builds on WoW now than there was. It's pretty lame in my opinion, and I feel more like a tool for the developers than an actual paladin when I play that game.

Wow. That's supremely disappointing.

Devs do this to make things easier for themselves, and do whatever is more interesting to them. It's not about player enjoyment and flexibility. They do things like this to lower adoption barriers from other MMOs. It's an efficiency decision for business, nothing more.

I'm glad I quit WoW when I did, and I won't wait as long with LotRO if the devs go the same way.

I'm going to necro this thread so we have the feedback captains gave back in Feb-March 2013 to compare with the trait tree example shown in the Massively preview. Unfortunately, it appears the tree structure chosen is very vertical, i.e., lots of spent points needed to get to the bottom of the tree.

The Keeper of Animal skills lit up would take 44 points to fill completely. Using the average cost for those skills, I estimate it would take 11 more points (55 in total out of the 85 available now (95 in HD)) to fill the KoA line, which is very reasonable, but the big question is how many points will it cost to slot the legendary traits on the left?

I think it's worth mentioning that the only traits which strictly depend on traits "higher" in the tree are the ones with the dotted-line arrows connecting them. The graphic for selecting a trait is a sort of tapered "banner" shape that looks a little like an arrow, but it's not. So it's not quite like the Mounted Combat trees, where every "tier" depended on having invested in a specific trait in the tier above. Some traits will depend on unlocking a specific trait above them, but others don't.

Granted, I don't think any dev has stated that outright in public, but certain things on the image don't make sense otherwise. Look at, for instance, Sign of the Wild: Protection. It has the little banner thing pointing at the trait below it, but it doesn't have the dotted-line arrows. Then look at the Animal Master tree. There are two "subtrees" that start with a trait on tier 1, then they have a tier 3 trait connected to them by dotted-line arrows, then the tier 4 traits also have dotted-line arrows going from the tier 3 traits above them. If the tapered banner indicated dependency, the dotted-line arrows from the T3 to the T4 traits wouldn't be necessary, and there would be banners there instead.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the traits on the side are representing something similar to the set bonuses we get on Live. So you don't necessarily need to spend points in them, you just get them for putting points in the main part of the tree. Per Sapience, "The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees."

ANYWAY. Now that more of this stuff is out in the wild, I'm curious what kinds of things y'all think should be in our three trait lines and in the "tier" bonuses attached to them. Obviously, it looks like a lot of the implementation is already done, but it's always fun to speculate.

Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

The Keeper of Animal skills lit up would take 44 points to fill completely. Using the average cost for those skills, I estimate it would take 11 more points (55 in total out of the 85 available now (95 in HD)) to fill the KoA line

It's not a point per level. It's a point every 2 levels, most likely starting at 6, and then a point for every class deed and likely a point for every legendary deed, so somewhere between 70 and 80 points available in HD.

how many points will it cost to slot the legendary traits on the left?

If you compare spent points with the skills in the tree, you'll notice nothing on the far left costs points.

Thanks TinDragon. I went back and read the entire thread later and discovered the point accumulation was slower as you have stated. So that makes the trees even more confining, especially if traits further down unlock skills we are all used to having.

ANYWAY. Now that more of this stuff is out in the wild, I'm curious what kinds of things y'all think should be in our three trait lines and in the "tier" bonuses attached to them. Obviously, it looks like a lot of the implementation is already done, but it's always fun to speculate.

I'll toss my wild guess into the ring. Going off of the burg dev diary, I'd say that we'll still have our 3 lines of dps (red), healing (blue), and off-tank (yellow). The yellow line will probably have survivability increases as well, probably early on for the other lines to dip into. Early red line would probably have some increased crit rating for the others to dip, and early blue would have...I dunno, increased power regen? I tend to burn through power pretty quickly on my captain compared to my other classes. Buffing is so integral to a cappy that I hope its available in all the lines instead of being relegated to a "buffing" line.

I honestly have no idea what to expect beyond that. I am looking forward to the Cappy dev diary with great interest.

My guess is we'll probably see a tactical mastery trait pretty early in the blue branch.

I'm looking forward to seeing the dev diary, though I hope Rock formats this one a little differently than the burg one. I feel like he spent a little too much time saying "Hey, you can splash into this line for this thing here." whereas a more involved breakdown of each line would give the same result and possibly give a little more information besides.

My guess is we'll probably see a tactical mastery trait pretty early in the blue branch.

Ooh, good idea. That slipped my mind.

Also, what about heralds? They specifically said they were working on making heralds more useful. Does this mean they'll have their own traitline like LM's? Which current one would it replace? Or will they continue to be spread out across the traitlines. Or maybe they'll be those free ones that pop up on the side.

Also, what about heralds? They specifically said they were working on making heralds more useful. Does this mean they'll have their own traitline like LM's? Which current one would it replace? Or will they continue to be spread out across the traitlines. Or maybe they'll be those free ones that pop up on the side.

Now I'm just getting antsy and impatient for the dev diary.

I'd rather they just remove all herald traits and just make the heralds not suck without the traits existing.

I honestly have no idea what to expect beyond that. I am looking forward to the Cappy dev diary with great interest.

Sapience mentioned on Twitter last week that the dev diaries are being submitted and posted in alphabetical order. So we should be next. The only question is what kind of pacing Sapience wants to use. At the slowest, I assume we'll get one per week. Fastest would be one per day, but it looks like that won't be the case. (Or we'd have already had a new dev diary on Monday.) I'm gonna split the difference and predict two per week, which would mean we get the Cappy dev diary today and the Champ one on Thursday. But we'll see. I'm probably wrong.

Originally Posted by TinDragon

I'm looking forward to seeing the dev diary, though I hope Rock formats this one a little differently than the burg one. I feel like he spent a little too much time saying "Hey, you can splash into this line for this thing here." whereas a more involved breakdown of each line would give the same result and possibly give a little more information besides.

I suspect the dev diaries will be purposely vague to allow for tweaking during beta.

Originally Posted by TinDragon

I'd rather they just remove all herald traits and just make the heralds not suck without the traits existing.

One of the nice things about the tree structure is that you can put in herald traits without them taking away from the main goal of the line. Like, LtC "wastes" two out of seven traits on improving Heralds (for little gain), because the old trait system always had seven traits per line. The trait trees are more flexible. Rather than getting Herald traits instead of non-Herald DPS traits, they could just give LtC more points than the other two trees and say, "You can spend extra points in this line to get your DPS traits plus your Herald traits, or you could trade either Heralds or DPS to have more points for the other lines."

But, yeah, I definitely agree that the baseline should be that Heralds don't suck even if you invest zero trait resources into them.

Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

One of the nice things about the tree structure is that you can put in herald traits without them taking away from the main goal of the line. Like, LtC "wastes" two out of seven traits on improving Heralds (for little gain), because the old trait system always had seven traits per line. The trait trees are more flexible. Rather than getting Herald traits instead of non-Herald DPS traits, they could just give LtC more points than the other two trees and say, "You can spend extra points in this line to get your DPS traits plus your Herald traits, or you could trade either Heralds or DPS to have more points for the other lines."

Do you think they'll do this? From what I have seen so far, the devs plan on distributing trait points based on the character's level and number of deeds completed. Either way, couldn't points being spent on herald traits be spent elsewhere if the player chose to spend them elsewhere? It still would be a tradeoff. But maybe just a lower cost tradeoff than now.

Originally Posted by furtim

But, yeah, I definitely agree that the baseline should be that Heralds don't suck even if you invest zero trait resources into them.

I agree with this. Up with baseline heralds! Especially, for lower-level characters who benefit more from heralds and don't have many trait points.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

All I have to say is, "please, no trait trees." I rather like LotRO's approach and would prefer it not be like most every other mmo.

^ This

At a time, when just months ago, the "market leader" moved away from a strict trait-tree system to a system more like LOTRO's current system because trait trees are far too restrictive, reduce player enjoyment and because of both of those was leading to players leaving the game it makes no sense at all for Turbine to be taking what is, in effect, a retrograde move for the industry.

LOTRO's trait system was one of the more progressive such systems in the industry - I fail to see how taking a step backwards can be seen as progress.

I also agree that the talent tree system is an old and passing thing, and that lotro should not migrate to it. The system lotro currently uses is quite honestly the best I have seen in any mmo to date. The change from it to a old system that dates back to I believe before diablo II. I can't really remember any game before diablo II which used the talent tree system.

It's old and not very well thought out as a whole because it ends up always being too restrictive in the long run. It prevents people from being creative with there choices and pigeon holes them into "optimal builds". The reason it does this is because each skill is always successively gated behind the next, so to get any actual progress one is required essentially to invest fully into one tree. This in turn kills hybrid roles, which is a problem mmo's have had since there inception. The Dreaded Tank/mage/warrior combo of doom. However turbine has effectively fixed that issue with there current trait system, the talent tree system will only break it again.