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the op's video the horse when entering had a nice jog, very pretty and head at a decent level, also the horse appeared to keep the head at about a 45 deg angle and not behind the verticle

the lope was not bad and better than the 2012 horse but the head was starting to get a tad low

its not for everyone but many horses are bred to do just that and not all have to be forced into it

Originally Posted by Golden Pony

My first thought when seeing the canter on these WP horses - is it LAME?

The frame up shouldn't be the only thing they're looking for. If the gait itself is all screwy or incorrect, that shouldn't be pinned. I guess that's my beef with these winners is that the judges seem to be cutting the horse off at the legs and not paying any attention to either the cadence or the expression of the animal. On some of these, the horse looks to me like it's trying to find a spot to start scratching and roll.

On both videos there are visible spots where the lope waffles back and forth between a four beat and a three beat. The horse is using its neck as a pivot point instead of reaching up and under with its back legs.

It's amusing that you can dig out old videos of what AQHA judges are supposed to look for, and the horses below look anything but lame. They're engaged, correctly moving, nicely framed, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZfC-uGMOo

Vanquero, the head and neck are not the only thing to look for, however when you have heard the harping on WP horses for the peanut dragging and behind the verticle they are worth mentioning, things are changing not as fast as needed but they are

I do think that the jog before the class and the lope during the victory lap were better than in the class, the horse was moving relaxed and was not a bad mover, not a hunter but a western pleasure horse

I have never owned or showed an arab, but they are my favorite horses to watch when it comes to western pleasure classes. They are still slow movers, but it looks so much prettier and pleasurable to ride than QHs (I do show them). I remember I went to the U.S. Arabian Nationals, and some of the wp classes asked for a hand gallop...the horses most certainly could move forward! <- That is what the class was meant to be like in the first place; to show that yes I have an easy going horse, but it can move out and work (i.e cattle) if I ask it to. I wish stock type pleasure classes asked for things like that more.

Maybe pretty to watch but personally I wouldn't want to ride any of these out on a ranch either. Fast boucy trots, lopes that look like if you let them go they would run off, and lots of noses behind the verticle. I love a good AQHA pleasure horse that moves from behind with 2 beat jogs and 3 beat lopes.

IMO, the mare looks nice when she's not on the rail. The job an lope there are a little more forward.

She does wear her ears pretty well, and the rider did a nice job of putting her next to a "worse" horse--the bay behind her is faster, shorter strided, tail-wringing, nose pointed in to the rail at the lope for the "driving with one foot on the gas, one on the brake" effect.

I think this horse is exceptional. I love the jog as she enters, though on the rail the horse should have been bumped up just a hair to keep the cadence. I thought the lope looked natural and effortless.

While I think lopes have improved, jogs have suffered. So many horses could have better jogs if the rider would just bump them up a tad to ensure it's true-ness. And some just are bred to be great lopers these days and not natural joggers.

Ditto - that mare is just exquisite. I also like her jog up the center line better than her rail jog. The horses that can truly go slow and also do a true 3 beat canter without slinging their heads are not numerous. The WP judges are less forgiving than the hunter judges wrt manners - they like a horse to have consistent cadence and a quiet expression and it is important.

I have a QH gelding who was bred back when they were well into breeding horses that moved that way, but hadn't quite yet totally ruined a fraction of the breed . Still, he was started with some pretty heavy-handed WP training, and has the scars, both mental and physical, to prove it. He's a big, slow-legged horse, and I tell people that if I'd had him 45 years ago when I was doing up-in-the-bridle WP in California, I'd be famous today. I rode him in a horsemanship clinic two years ago (in the two-rein, but well up in the bridle) and had a well-known warmblood breeder admire his canter. He can jog tracking up. (I've never schooled him as a modern WP horse; his past 12 years have been influenced by dressage and Vaquero horsemanship)

Alas, at 20 years old, his hocks are shot.

What's been done to a large part of the QH breed is nothing short of a crime.

yes to the amateur if it's a "moving up" in class. So if you're a novice, you could certainly fill a regular amateur class, if you're open... not so much. As for the Jr WP, as long as your horse is a jr, *your* status doesn't matter.

Bear in mind that the show ring has no connection to reality or usefulness!

Given that: you would love my western Morgan on the ranch. A nice, easy CANTER when asked and a nice lengthened jog. But a real 'range rover' wouldn't be appreciated in the show ring.

Originally Posted by Mel0309

Maybe pretty to watch but personally I wouldn't want to ride any of these out on a ranch either. Fast boucy trots, lopes that look like if you let them go they would run off, and lots of noses behind the verticle. I love a good AQHA pleasure horse that moves from behind with 2 beat jogs and 3 beat lopes.

oh and the last video is a great older educational video the gray is my personal favorite, the whole video is very much worth it.

A helpful video. They were also honest-- wrapping the legs in different colored polos let everyone see the pattern of footfall in each gait.

I like the white/grey horse's lope and his frame in that the best. That horse has truly lifted his shoulders. But perhaps only his lope is good? I'd like to see the horse at all three gaits and transitions. If I were training horses to do this, I'd make the grey horse's "uphill" frame my ideal. Is that so wrong?

First off, I love the bling of the gal's outfit. Yeah---the blingier the better! ;-) The jog was too much of a shuffle..horse did not appear to pick up his feet, I kept thinking he was going to trip and fall as he traveled on his forehand the entire time. I loved the loop in her reins, horse stayed with his rider and vice versa nicely...........however...........the lope.......was never a true 3 beat gait. The horse, because he was producing an artificial gait, stands a pretty good chance of not staying sound as his career moves forward. She is a lovely rider, no doubt, she presented the horse nicely in the class. The horse just looked lame behind.

Quite a number of years ago AQHA sent a video to all of its judges saying this is how a western pleasure horse should be judged and if a judge wasn't happy with this video, to turn in their card.......and........at AQHA horse shows, the announcer was to say, when it was time to lope, "lope with forward motion." I was thrilled with this. For a period of time the lopes appeared to have improved with no artificial gait being produced. The peanut roller affect was diminishing as were other less than stellar "schooling" practices at shows.

Alas, it seems to be returning. A lope is 3 beat, and should be comfortable, it will be a swaying motion, not a back and forth rubbing of riders seat in saddle but a true scoop of the pelvis.

Truly connected western pleasure horses from back to front are hard to find. I just wish the western pleasure trainers and riders would not keep going after these artificial gaits, or rather, I wish the judges would stop rewarding 4 beat lopes....ok, off my soapbox and rant. ;-) Merely my thoughts based on my experiences in the western arena. Carry on guys. Great thread.