Yep. I know his importance to the defense. I know he's basically a safety and an edge sealing LB at the same time. I know he allows us to not care so much about the strong side LB position and you almost get two players for one. If he were to be able to return, it would be one of the highlights of the offseason. You have an elite safety and elite LB all in one who's almost an on field coach.

The real question is if that's what he SHOULD do. It's a legitimate question of what it's worth.

1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

Option 1 - He retires, in this situation his dead money would only be $7.5M. You can take all of that hit in 2018 if you want

OR

Option 2 - do a post June 1st cut and make the dead money in 2018 $2.5M with cap savings of $7.3M for 2018 but with $5M in dead money in 2019 ($2.5M dead money in 2018 and £5M dead money in 2019 totalling $7.5M) That's option 2.

Option 3 would be to cut him. This is not going to happen as his $12M injury guarantee plus his $7.5M dead money mentioned above would come off the cap, some $19.5M lost in cap space.

Option 4 - He stays on the team unable to play and collects his salary and brings nothing to the table.

I guess you could technically get another team to pay for his contract by offering them Kam + whatever draft pick in return for the teams 7th round pick, not sure where the league would stand with that but as far as I know there's nothing stopping that from happening. Doubtful, though.

As it stands, I see option 4 the most likely or maybe he and the team come to some agreement and he retires.

Option 1 - He retires, in this situation his dead money would only be $7.5M. You can take all of that hit in 2018 if you want

OR

Option 2 - do a post June 1st cut and make the dead money in 2018 $2.5M with cap savings of $7.3M for 2018 but with $5M in dead money in 2019 ($2.5M dead money in 2018 and £5M dead money in 2019 totalling $7.5M) That's option 2.

Option 3 would be to cut him. This is not going to happen as his $12M injury guarantee plus his $7.5M dead money mentioned above would come off the cap, some $19.5M lost in cap space.

Option 4 - He stays on the team unable to play and collects his salary and brings nothing to the table.

I guess you could technically get another team to pay for his contract by offering them Kam + whatever draft pick in return for the teams 7th round pick, not sure where the league would stand with that but as far as I know there's nothing stopping that from happening. Doubtful, though.

As it stands, I see option 4 the most likely or maybe he and the team come to some agreement and he retires.

Wouldn't he still have to pass a physical to stay on the team? If he is suffering a degenerative neurological issue, that can only get worse, I'm not sure how he passes one.

For the first time in years, Pete Carroll was pretty straight-forward with Kam and Avril's career prospects, and I think that portends an exercise of Option 2...the Doctors have told the team that both risk greater injury by playing again...the Seahawks, since they gain nothing by cutting them now, will wait it out until the summer, and when that June 1 cut-down day comes and goes, both will probably be gone with it.

I love Kam. I own a jersey of his that I'll prize forever, but the reality is he has likely played his last day as a Seahawk.

A-Dog wrote:1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

What about Option 5 - he returns and plays at a high level because injuries can heal. There seems to be about 0% of you entertaining this option in your heads. Mostly just cynicism about how he can cheat his way into the most $$ for nothing versus how the Seahawks can screw him over for the most $$.

I'm sure there's lots of people in the NFL that are better than Kam in coverage. But that's not what he gets paid to do. He's paid to play "in the box" and help stop the run. Anyone that knows Pete's defense knows that.

McDougald is a good player, but there's a reason why he was available from TB. He's not a game changer.

I don't think it's "rosy" to see that McD doesn't bring the same fire, the same intensity as Kam. No one is looking to McDougald to get the secondary on the same page. No one is scared to go over the middle against McD.

And if Kam doesn't come back, McDougald is not going to be the guy that you just plug in and everything is fine.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion...man." - The Dude

A-Dog wrote:1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

There are a lot of borderline disparaging comments in here about a guy that was easily as important, if not more important, than Russell Wilson in getting us to a SB.

Every bit as important as Lynch, Kam was the guy on the other side that stopped the run and shut down the middle.

And if he cannot play for health reasons, by all means. But if he can, this team is better for it.

Some weirdly passive aggressive comments about him in this thread, considering there should be a statue of him, Browner, Thomas, Sherman and Lynch outside of the stadium for getting us our first and only SB victory.

Really weird that people are upset about a guy that earned his money making this team great and then getting injured in the process when you see our FO squander the exact amount, if not more, on waste of space signings like Lacy or JokeL. Kam does eat some cap, but maybe if we quit wasting money on garbage veteran signing FAs for high dollars that impact would not be so great?

Kam coming back is better for this team.

If he is jeopardizing his health? Obviously I do not want him to play. But he earned every penny he is making and proved it the year he held out (we suddenly got a LOT worse, including the effectiveness of Thomas). Kam was a key reason that defense was as good as it was, and it is very laughable to argue that McDougal makes us better than when a healthy or even an 80% Kam is out there.

I appreciate everything Kam has done for the team and I loved watching him play, but...he should have been traded in the offseason after his holdout. And before you start saying I'm a fickle fan, I was on this train since his holdout feel free to check my posts.

What about Option 5 - he returns and plays at a high level because injuries can heal. There seems to be about 0% of you entertaining this option in your heads. Mostly just cynicism about how he can cheat his way into the most $$ for nothing versus how the Seahawks can screw him over for the most $$.

You only have to listen to Pete's tone of voice in his press conference to know that option 5 isn't happening...

A-Dog wrote:1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

A-Dog wrote:1. Kam is still an elite player when healthy2. Kam's presence in terms of leadership and running the defense is severely underrated here3. McDougald is adequate but not even close to being at Kam's level, much less better than Kam4. Without Kam, the LOB loses its teeth and intimidation is no longer a factor5. I'm convinced that Kam's holdout, subsequent "undeserved" extension, and injury troubles have caused fans to sour on him in general, leading to armchair performance assessments that are way off base and lacking any real rigor or objectivity. That is a shame because Kam is a unique player in the history of the NFL and quite possibly the best SS to have ever played the game. He will be in the HOF someday.

McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

I agree.

He brings intelligence to the whole defense, let alone the tone setting.

Option 1 - He retires, in this situation his dead money would only be $7.5M. You can take all of that hit in 2018 if you want

OR

Option 2 - do a post June 1st cut and make the dead money in 2018 $2.5M with cap savings of $7.3M for 2018 but with $5M in dead money in 2019 ($2.5M dead money in 2018 and £5M dead money in 2019 totalling $7.5M) That's option 2.

On option 1, I don't believe that the team has a choice of when to take the cap hit when a player retires... I believe that it must take all of the $7.5M dead money cap hit in 2018. Anybody here know for certain?

On option 2 (post-June 1st cut), the team has the option of taking all of his remaining $7.5M prorated bonus as a dead money cap hit in 2018, or they have the option of spreading it out over 2018 and 2019, resulting in a $3.75M dead money hit each year.

Overthecap.com leads you to believe that it could be spread over the remaining three years of his contract but I don't believe that is an option.

So if I am correct and the team decides to spread it over 2018 and 2019, the 2018 cap savings would be $6.05M ($9.8M - 3.75M = $6.05M). And, of course, the $3.75M is dead money against the 2018 cap.

And in 2019, the cap savings would be $9.35M ($13M - 3.75M = $9.25M). And the 2019 dead money hit is $3.75M again.

And the cap savings is 2020 would be his 2020 salary plus his roster bonus... or $12M total ($10.5M + 1.5M = $12M). No dead money hit in 2020.

The short-coming with post-June 1st cuts is the team can't utilize the cap savings during the FA frenzy that happens in mid-March. The cap space saved is not available to be spent until June 1st.

original poster wrote:Think it’s actually 12th May this year, however the saying is more known as June 1st. Your point still stands about FA, though.

The start of FA is mid-March...

March 12-14 Clubs are permitted to contact, and enter into contract negotiations with, the certified agents of players who will become Unrestricted Free Agents upon the expiration of their 2017 player contracts at 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14. However, a contract cannot be executed with a new club until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14.

original poster wrote:Think it’s actually 12th May this year, however the saying is more known as June 1st. Your point still stands about FA, though.

The start of FA is mid-March...

March 12-14 Clubs are permitted to contact, and enter into contract negotiations with, the certified agents of players who will become Unrestricted Free Agents upon the expiration of their 2017 player contracts at 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14. However, a contract cannot be executed with a new club until 4:00 p.m., New York time, on March 14.

CHawkTailGator wrote:I'm sure there's lots of people in the NFL that are better than Kam in coverage. But that's not what he gets paid to do. He's paid to play "in the box" and help stop the run. Anyone that knows Pete's defense knows that.

McDougald is a good player, but there's a reason why he was available from TB. He's not a game changer.

I don't think it's "rosy" to see that McD doesn't bring the same fire, the same intensity as Kam. No one is looking to McDougald to get the secondary on the same page. No one is scared to go over the middle against McD.

And if Kam doesn't come back, McDougald is not going to be the guy that you just plug in and everything is fine.

Kam hasn’t been a game changer for the past two years. When’s this LOB nostalgia going to wear off? Sure he can support in the run but he is an absolute liability in coverage.

And I don’t think anybody is saying McDougald is a game changer. He’s a very good versatile safety however and if he hits the open market, he’ll be coveted by many teams. He pairs nicely with ET. I’d rather stick with him and address the SAM LB spot then go with high priced, broken Kam because I want to live in the past.

Steve2222 wrote:McDougald is without a doubt better than Kam in coverage. And if Kam retires tomorrow, he’d be waiting a long while to make the Hall. And he is not better than Troy Polamalu. Take off your rosy Seahawks glasses for a second.

Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

I agree.

He brings intelligence to the whole defense, let alone the tone setting.

However, he can't do that when he's injured.

Intelligence to the defense? You don’t think ET and Wagner aren’t out their diagnosing what the offense is doing for their teammates? It’s not a coincidence that Bobby is always at the right place, at the right time. And ET is definitely a tone setter. Our defense lacked this year not because of “leadership” or intelligence. It struggled because we gave QBs clean pockets to throw.

Own The West wrote:Kam has lost a step and can't get to the play in time to BE an enforcer.

I'd rather have pass breakups and no-throws than an ESPN highlight tackle 3 times a year.

You have a seriously thin impression of what Kam does for this defense, and still is doing.

I agree.

He brings intelligence to the whole defense, let alone the tone setting.

However, he can't do that when he's injured.

Intelligence to the defense? You don’t think ET and Wagner aren’t out their diagnosing what the offense is doing for their teammates? It’s not a coincidence that Bobby is always at the right place, at the right time. And ET is definitely a tone setter. Our defense lacked this year not because of “leadership” or intelligence. It struggled because we gave QBs clean pockets to throw.

No one is ripping on McDougald here...but Steve, you make it sound like we haven't had a strong safety for - what did you say, "2 years"? I take exception to that.

Kam's been playing great the last couple years. He's an all pro that just happened to get a season ending neck injury this year. He had his ankles cleaned up last offseason and came out on fire this year.

McD's a nice fill in, yeah, he can cover...great. But the energy, passion, etc. that was all Kam. He was the tone setter on the field. He put pulling guards on their backside. You ever see McDougald do that? He was the motivational guy in the locker room as well. And if McDougald wants to test free agency and gets a huge contract, it's not an indictment on the Kam or the Hawks.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion...man." - The Dude

CHawkTailGator wrote:No one is ripping on McDougald here...but Steve, you make it sound like we haven't had a strong safety for - what did you say, "2 years"? I take exception to that.

Kam's been playing great the last couple years. He's an all pro that just happened to get a season ending neck injury this year. He had his ankles cleaned up last offseason and came out on fire this year.

McD's a nice fill in, yeah, he can cover...great. But the energy, passion, etc. that was all Kam. He was the tone setter on the field. He put pulling guards on their backside. You ever see McDougald do that? He was the motivational guy in the locker room as well. And if McDougald wants to test free agency and gets a huge contract, it's not an indictment on the Kam or the Hawks.

Kam hasn’t been All Pro since 2014, where he was second team. Hasn’t made a Pro bowl since 2015. I’m grateful for everything Kams done for this team. He’s definitely going to have his number in rafters one day. However, he is a shell of his former self, his body is breaking down, and is a liability in coverage. I would much rather Kam retire so we can get out of his massive contract and put McDougald there. Then, finally address the sam lb that has been a glaring hole since Irvin left.

Of course ET played better with Kam in 2013-2015. We could actually rush the passer those years. That’s the difference you’re seeing. I don’t know what it is with us Seattle sports fans, but we just can’t let our beloved players go.

CHawkTailGator wrote:No one is ripping on McDougald here...but Steve, you make it sound like we haven't had a strong safety for - what did you say, "2 years"? I take exception to that.

Kam's been playing great the last couple years. He's an all pro that just happened to get a season ending neck injury this year. He had his ankles cleaned up last offseason and came out on fire this year.

McD's a nice fill in, yeah, he can cover...great. But the energy, passion, etc. that was all Kam. He was the tone setter on the field. He put pulling guards on their backside. You ever see McDougald do that? He was the motivational guy in the locker room as well. And if McDougald wants to test free agency and gets a huge contract, it's not an indictment on the Kam or the Hawks.

Kam hasn’t been All Pro since 2014, where he was second team. Hasn’t made a Pro bowl since 2015. I’m grateful for everything Kams done for this team. He’s definitely going to have his number in rafters one day. However, he is a shell of his former self, his body is breaking down, and is a liability in coverage. I would much rather Kam retire so we can get out of his massive contract and put McDougald there. Then, finally address the sam lb that has been a glaring hole since Irvin left.

Of course ET played better with Kam in 2013-2015. We could actually rush the passer those years. That’s the difference you’re seeing. I don’t know what it is with us Seattle sports fans, but we just can’t let our beloved players go.

Kam was unique, I don't think there is a hard hitting guy like him in the league. He has sucked the soul out of many opponents. I don't know if we can replace him with another player unless there is one who has the physical and mental capabilities to play with the identity. We may not get him 100% but near term is is more value proposition than liability unless he is physically not possible to play and need to retire for his own health.

It will be up to the doctors. As much as I would love him back I believe based on the information that is out so far it is a big risk. Nobody has said what his surgery is. It could be a decompression laminectomy or a fusion. Disc at his age are not real common except in the presence of significant trauma. He apparently had bilateral symptoms into the arms. If he had symptoms that covered most of the surface of the arm it suggests muliitple level involvement or something that happened to the spinal cord itself. The nerves come out of the neck more horizontal than in the lumbar spine. In the lumbar spine the nerves are more vertical so a disc can catch more than one nerve. A single disc might hit one nerve coming out of the neck but not more than one unless of course there is multiple discs involved. By virtue of the position of the disc it has to climb over a joint that rests on the body of the vertebrae called the uncovertebral joint before it can reach the nerve. It takes a lot of trauma for this to occur. It is shaped like a "U" and the disc sits inside it. His history is one of trauma so more than likely it is not a degenerative joint issue which comes on with age. If the cord in contused or swollen in the cervical spine it can affect multiple levels. All of the nerves come into the extremities from the cord. I would compare of like a large power box on an electric line splitting up and going into individual houses.

The bottom line at this point is that different people heal differently. Having not examined either Kam or Cliff this is only speculation. In my experience, there is always a risk with these types of injuries to come back to full contact. A decision will have to be made between his doctors and him weighing all of the risks to return to full play. It would be an absolute tragedy to see either of these young guys a catastrophic injury subsequent to returning to play. They are young, have families and have their whole life ahead of them. I gather you can see where I stand but I am not their doctor.

If Kam isn't back, I wonder if they will move McEvoy to safety. He was a safety in college, I believe. Probably wouldn't hurt to try him out there. He definitely has the size to be a "box" type strong safety.

Kam has been a hero for the team, I saw someone say how ET played when he held out... But what about how mashed up the whole secondary got when ET was injured a couple seasons ago!

Kam is a presence and a big personality on the field but don't let that fool you into thinking he has the same kind of talent ET does. We need ET in the secondary more than Kam.

When you can't get pressure to the QB and you aren't the best in coverage like Kam isn't you're going to get exposed. I like McDougauld he's not on Kams presence level but at least he can cover.

Kam been one of my favourite players just like Lynch was, but when they ain't good enough you have to let them go, don't hold on for sentimental reasons, just like they wouldn't if someone offered them a bigger pay cheque!

As for replacements, I dunno about anyone else but I'd have loved Tedric Thompson to get more game time, he has instincts and can cover, look at his college record, he's a ball hawk. He was where the ball was. Would love to see him get in and get the defence back in the right direction turnovers wise.

No way Kam retires. Even if he can't play, the ridiculous contract the FO game him has him entitled to another $12M+, so he'll at least make a cursory attempt to participate even if he has no intention of ever taking the field.

Well despite all of this if Kam returns or not I just hope his neck injury heals properly. Kam is my favorite player on the Seahawks. The intensity and fire he brings to our defense is second to none. People can agrue that he’s past his prime etc...he’s still a very good player