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Have you even realised that 9:00 in a grand piano corresponds to 15:00 in an upright? In a grand piano, the tension of the string pulls the pin towards 12:00. In an upright, the string's tension pulls the pin towards 6:00.

Thanks Mark, you are right. For piano my technique will work it is from 15 to 6. I'm sorry for my mistake. This is linked to the fact that I made my describing by respect to the vertical piano. So, if tuning grand need handle right from 15 to 6 down.

In the pictures shows the balance of power. K - pin, Г - his head, P - handle hammer, T - fulcrum F, h - height of the point of application of force above the pinblock (ВБ) Than the higher the point T, that the length of the arms bending force component on the pins.http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/view/502778/

would be superior if we had 3 hands. Two to twist the T-hammer (applying a pure torque), and one to strike the note.

Perhaps one could learn to strike the key with the toe?

(Tongue in cheek, in case it's not obvious.)

Kees

Your post brings up an important point.

I have purposefully avoided the word 'torque' in order to differentiate between turning and twisting of the pin. Even some of our lexicographers don't recognise this difference in their definition of torque and use twist and turn interchangeably. Anybody who even attempted to tune a piano would immediately recognise this.

I also am careful to differentiate between tuning lever and tuning hammer. Also the difference between tongue in cheek humor, which is often extremely funny and low puerile silliness. Both have their place.

This post also caused me to cogitate while tuning a piano, on the use of the lever in turning the pin in such a way as to not involve twisting it. I use this technique wherever possibl, sometimes a whole piano responds to it but, while I find it easy with a lever, it seems almost impossible with a hammer. The balance between the pressure of the thumb and the fingers on a lever makes this possible and is a valuable technique in speed tuning. The pin remains set but in its new position usually, with experience, the string becomes in tune with one or two calculated nudges of this sort. Isaac has mentioned this before and there was a whole thread here, some months ago, on the 'marshmallow zone' where this phenomenon was danced around but somehow remained unspoken in the thread. I have used this techniqu for as long as I can remember but never really thought about it or analysed it. Tuners who don't use their thumb in this manner (and this includes every upright tuning I have seen on uTube and many grand tunings) will most likely never experience it.

These days, I see most of the pianos I tune only a few hours later, so I know it works. I only really trust it implicitly in a clockwise direction but that might just be me. I have experienced it work in both directions. It depends on the feel of the piano.

This thread is throwing up all kinds of minutia.

Thanks for prompting this.

Max. Your automatic use of the plectrum to establish whether the next string to be tuned is sharp or flat is both slowing you down and destroying any ability you may develop to intuit the pitch of the next string to tune and in which direction to tune it. . The use of a paps wedge ( the long plastic scissory thing) or a stick wedge is advantageous here because you can change the string wedging quickly while carrying the pitches of the last blow in your head. Fiddling with plectra takes too much time and the essential tuning momentum is lost.

The T hammer is very convenient to really perceive the level of stress the pin is subjected to, without wondering if it comes from the way you are holding the tuning lever (lever, hammer, I regret I dont see the difference, RXD)

The "nudging and vibrtaing motion" obtained with the thumb holding the handle as a fulcrum, is how an initially firmly set tuning pin can be moved without going thru the whole shebang of untwisting/unstessing the pin, raising above pitch, unleach the twist of the pin and leave it only enough tense so it is in opposition with the wire tension ( with a dynamometer, it sound like a degree of may be less, that is the amount of twist the wire can induce in the tuning pin)

testing with a dynanometer is really crude, apply on a smaller part of the pin, but it shows more than 1 degree with 75 Kg

The metal of the pins is soft, I suggest if it was too springy the tone would suffer.

But I am also persuaded of the participation to tone obtained with the stiffening of the tuning pin by the torque left and constrained by the wire.Hence the richer tone of pianos with maple blocks and no wood bushing (and good pin setting, may I add )

Very certainly when the pin is left in "neutral" position (from the tuner point of view) the tone is more "open" than when some stress remain ion the pin side , so musiclaly this can be pleasing.But the tone is more powerful and more tight/precise with a "stressed" pin

Edited by Olek (01/25/1305:58 AM)

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I have find difficult because of the strength necessary, to tune precisely with the T hammer.

It is because it is really not so easy to work the springiness of the ensemble lever/tuning pin/pinblock (and wire of course)

We are in strength level more easily attainable with a traditional lever.For instance when we need to raise the stiffness of the pin enough to be able to make a motion of its foot of a few tenth of degree, the side of the pin have to be "braked" on the side of the hole in the block.

Doing that without the block suffering is not easy with the T hammer, which is too direct.

Tall tuning tips are comfortable to use because they favour that flagpoling job, but I find them dangerous, the braking of the pin occurs on a larger part of the hole,

I cannot say for sure, but I suppose that I work the pin , bended in a sort of light "U" shape inside the hole.

To obtain that springy shape, the normal traditional lever is necessary, with power entry near the tip, not high.

But those are evolved techniques, and only to be done occasionally.

I have worked so much that that at some point I was tuning all the piano with that method (very fast in that case)

After a few years I seem to notice the pinblock begin to suffer.

Slow pull is what gives the most respect to the block, while allowing to use the inner bending of the pin for final corrections.

Of course at some point any piano can be in need of larger pins, but if the tuner agree to use a more respectuous method and spend more time, it will not occur.

On the contrary, a tired block can gain some torque and begin to act as a recent block

Edited by Olek (01/25/1306:10 AM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I thought I had made it plain in the previous post that a lever acts as a lever and is L shaped. The word tuning hammer derives from harpsichord days when the tuning implement was T shaped and could also be used as a hammer when tuning pins had a slightly conical shaft. This tool carried over into pianos which were originally strung like a harpsichord and when the stringing got heavier and levers began to be used in the factories, somehow the lever was still refered to as a hammer, even though it was nothing like a hammer.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic but it is always a good idea to define our terms. The terms lever and T-hammer are perhaps more apt. This is only my suggestion based on established historical precedent. Max has been calling his particular tool a T- bar hammer.

While there are theoretical and intuitive ideas about wear of pinblocks through tuning, I know of pianos that have been tuned a minimum of 4 times a week for 40 years that show no signs of wear other than the difference in feel that evolves in a pinblock over time whether it is tuned once a day or once a year. These often tuned pianos have been tuned by many tuners over the years, some of them using an aggressive flagpoling technique with a lever and still they show no real Ill effect. Intuitively, it would seem that they shouldnt be in such good tuning condition but they are. I cannot deny my perceptions. I have just texted my colleagues who also tune these pianos and the three of them that have replied so far concur.

I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

There is sometimes the odd rogue tuning pin hole that produces a looser pin but that is not the result of tuning. Otherwise, wouldn't there be more of them in the same block???

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.

would be superior if we had 3 hands. Two to twist the T-hammer (applying a pure torque), and one to strike the note.

Perhaps one could learn to strike the key with the toe?

(Tongue in cheek, in case it's not obvious.)

Kees

Max. Your automatic use of the plectrum to establish whether the next string to be tuned is sharp or flat is both slowing you down and destroying any ability you may develop to intuit the pitch of the next string to tune and in which direction to tune it. . The use of a paps wedge ( the long plastic scissory thing) or a stick wedge is advantageous here because you can change the string wedging quickly while carrying the pitches of the last blow in your head. Fiddling with plectra takes too much time and the essential tuning momentum is lost.

Dear rxd, I always look forward to any news from London. I will not hide for me, any criticism of your stance very need. I'm think last week to began clearer understanding subject "temperament" is largely due to you.The use of a plectrum in the last time I try to exclude. I have a trying to put the mute between the strings in the choruses (A4-A3). 5.6 octave strings just try to put my own ears without mutes. In Bass sector I do plucks right index finger, because there is more muffled sound, less additional harmonics. I will surely a stick wedge as you wroteRegards,Мах

The T hammer is very convenient to really perceive the level of stress the pin is subjected to, without wondering if it comes from the way you are holding the tuning lever (lever, hammer, I regret I dont see the difference, RXD)

Isaac,a tuner have need deep sensation both hands and your fingers on handle of T-bar when turn a pin. Turn on a brain in time tuning with T-bar. It's not tech. For me it philosofy

I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.

Thanks for that witnessing, I am just cautious.

That flagpole plus turn is the way we treated new pianos when they where untuneable, as YC verticals and some other too stiff and cracking blocks

And I did not use that terrible method on other pianos (tuning lever at 15h and maximum flagpoling.

But I moved a lot the pin while braking it inside the hole so I have a jump in the wire, breaking all friction, I could follow with a more standard turn.

Too much pressure on one side of the hole cannot be excellent in time, but as the control sensation is so good you tend to use it too much...Now I am quieter (too much may be) , I have seen a video of a tuner tuning very fast with all flagging, I will try to find it again.

Particularly, in the end it is unnecessary, flag poling is just one technique for particular situations.

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.

Particularly, in the end it is unnecessary, flag poling is just one technique for particular situations.

Even if the use of the T-bar is selective, episodic, each but tuner simply must know this. A tuner must have at least a little knowledge on the subject. Especially some of the negative consequences that can occur during a move of pin and set on handle

Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

This is not philosophy this is a long training with standard methods.

Philosophy must tell you that :

IF A PIANO IS PLAYED WITH KEYS IT MUST BE TUNED WITH KEYS

(Lao Tseu, -4OO before JCl)

PS sorry for capitals, T hammer is less efficient to lock the pin an wire together , than standard lever ;Because you feel the pin well, but the pinblock less well (when setting the pin)Because the handle is short, make it harder to produce tiny motion

To use accurately a T hammer, the tuner need to play strong and use hard blows to put the pin in its bed with enough tension below it.

Due to the bad condition of the pianos you work on you should use some foam in your ears. (this is very important)

Once you will use that you will understand better the unisons

You should learn what is a ,5th a 3d, an octave, and how they sound.

A piano to train yourself , every day if possible. Certainly you can find a piano , if you are a piano tuner.

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

While there are theoretical and intuitive ideas about wear of pinblocks through tuning, I know of pianos that have been tuned a minimum of 4 times a week for 40 years that show no signs of wear other than the difference in feel that evolves in a pinblock over time whether it is tuned once a day or once a year. These often tuned pianos have been tuned by many tuners over the years, some of them using an aggressive flagpoling technique with a lever and still they show no real Ill effect. Intuitively, it would seem that they shouldnt be in such good tuning condition but they are. I cannot deny my perceptions. I have just texted my colleagues who also tune these pianos and the three of them that have replied so far concur.

I can imagine wear taking place if a tuner flagpoles and turns at the same time. A feat that is almost impossible with a T hammer but commonplace these days when the lever is used unsupported by the thumb. Note that I say I could imagine possible damage by tuning that way. I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of it and certainly not In a modern multiply pinblock.

There is sometimes the odd rogue tuning pin hole that produces a looser pin but that is not the result of tuning. Otherwise, wouldn't there be more of them in the same block???

Even then, it is the ravages of time and of too many extreme atmospheric changes that does any of the real pinblock damage that most of us see.

Hi RXD , I suggest it is because concert tuners raise the firmness of the pin (each time the piano is tuned) an occasional flagpole tuner will not be noticed.Pinning is OK , as the tuning sensations, as long as the tuner use an adequate technique. A flagpole tuner need the block to be more firm, and in the end it finally is not (if all tunings are done that way) Flagpole tuning is seen as a beginner defect, in that case.

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

When inserting a muting strip, please get in the habit of depressing and holding down the sustain pedal to lift all dampers off the strings. This is done to protect the bichord and trichord wedges from being pinched and deformed.

I could not see this detail on the video and it is an important habit to have.

When pulling it out also while I tend to forget. At last for the double wedged and simple v shaped, if they are horizontally layered as on yamahas, Steinways, .. Then the wire motion can even cut in the felt (I have seen that)

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

Now if you have the feeling of the pin you have not understood yet the feeling of the string

But Max try do again

I agree there are better unisons but still more job to do to have them nicer (it takes along time to master unisons so you have now to learn to listen the notes with mutes, only 1 string then 2, then 3,

Many intervals are out of tuneI cannot say for sure but you seem to push on the lever to raise that center string, which is too low, you need to TURN really the lever , at that level of correction, as generally, pushing on the lever does not tune - raise notes higher than you do there that to set the string and pin.

You may want to train to listen to notes PLAYED together with one string only for one and one string only for the other, so 2 mutes or a felt ribbon should be the next tool you use.

It is impossible Max to tune good stable unisons by plucking the strings, it is only good for pitch raising (and is OK to listen if you ar eunsure of a string eventually, but on that note you tune would use a mute anc compare both sides of the unison, to hear which side sound the best.

Really, try to use some foam in your ears to lessen the too bright tone, or special "earplugs" then you will hear way better the most important part of the tone.

The partials couple soon, if you pluck you have not enough energy in the string.

Your octaves are all too small (the first one you tune is VERY small) Probably because the tuning pin is not set enough, with that hammer position I believe the pin can turn easily.

If you hold the lever right 13:00- 14:00 or vertical you are OBLIGED to raise more the wire, then there is enough tension in the string to put the pin in place

Edited by Olek (01/26/1303:33 PM)

_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I agree. Unisons and octaves are key. If they are clean, the ear can forgive a non equal temperament.

For unisons, listen to the beating upper partials. The lower partials will beat slower than the higher ones, so reducing the higher ones, which are faster and easier to hear, improves the whole unison. Try "ghosting" which is (as I know it) pressing the key gently, making no sound. Then staccato whack the octave, octave and fifth, and double octave. If the upper notes are close in frequency to the partials of the lower note, you will hear the beating if the unison is out of tune.

I also agree with Isaac's explanation of hammer turning.

I would like to add: We all know that when we turn the pin, the pin bends and twists, and the string begins to have the differential tensions across the bearing points. The trick is to leave the pin bent and twisted the way you found it, as well as the tension equalized, or unequal slightly in the direction of sharpening (this can be acceptable if it is less than the bearing friction).

Now, when we are finished turning the pin, it will "spring back" and the tensions will change. If only we could get that "spring back" to equalize the tension differential for us, that would produce stability.

Try this: Use Tunelab (http://www.tunelab-world.com/tl97.html) or some other ETD. Mute off a string. Turn the pin (*). Measure the pitch.Whack the key three times, fff.Measure the pitch again.

We are looking for no change in the pitch.

(*)If the pitch changes, try a different angle/approach combination

Possible angles: 9, 12, and 3 o'clock and all in between.Possible approaches: Coming from below (sharpening). Coming from above (flattening).Do not push or pull the handle unless you know what you are doing and why. This is only for ultra fine adjustments, and then the amount of push/pull is very gentle. It's more of a brushing of the handle, a coaxing if you will.)

The most common combinations that produce reasonable stability in most pianos, not all, is:

1) Flattening at 11 o'clock2) Sharpening at 2 o'clock

(Note: I did see you flattening at 2 o'clock which will definitely not produce a stable pin. As the pin "springs back", it causes the note to go flat.)

Good luck. Keep working at it. Seek out a good tuner. This will save you months, perhaps years in the learning curve.