I actually beg to differ with regards to bruce. He makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

the reason it's a cliche is that it's probably the only thing that could have changed the course of bruce. Like he said, he never counted on being happy, what makes anyone happier than being in a relationship with someone they truly care about.

besides having nothing stop potentially stopping him makes him a 2 dimensional character.

i don't get what you mean about the defining.

the killing aspect wouldn't stop andrea being the phantasm, it didn't stop bruce being batman, it was merely a sympton of being eaten up by the path of vengeance.

I would say the batman mask itself is not what scares alfred, it's the eyes (hence why we get a close up of the eyes)m bruce's eyes are what have become scary and not the costume and his eyes are defined by his almaganated loss. he didn't have fear in his eyes before (i am a believer the costume itself is irrelevant and the eyes are the telling part as they are focussed on alot in motp). in fairness his costume is no less intimidating than supermans, or lets say...black canary.

i don't see anything wrong with bruce wanting to not be batman, being batman isnt' a great thing as everyone who's ever worked with bruce has encountered.

because inhumanity which isn't rationalised in adult hood is just plain lunacy.

the only reason bruce becomes strong to the actions of others in dcau is because he was royally burned by andrea back in the day. Even in perchance to dream if he had his perfect life, andrea wouldn't have been part of it, that's how much she burnt him.

as females in superhero films go, she's certainly the best love interest to date and is a double beacor warning of what the hero could have had or could have become if he didn't walk that line so finely. andrea beaumont is everything good and everything bad in bruce at the same time.

Agreed. When she left, he realized he had nothing left. The idea of a normal life was gone for him. Well, there was Alfred, but that is a different type of relationship.

True.

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Originally Posted by I Am The Knight

Yeah, but Bruce tried to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel in TDK, too.

He also had the Joker threatening to kill people unless he exposed his identity as Batman.

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Originally Posted by I Am The Knight

Right, but it's uncertain what would've become of Bruce had Rachel never dropped him off at Falcone's. Nolan's Bruce needed to be spoonfed a lot of moral codes and dilemmas to get into the mindset of becoming Batman. He was directionless, and I'm not sure that he would've gone on any journey around the world without Rachel and Falcone.

That's the point. He was a misguided young man lost in his desire for revenge before that scene.

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Originally Posted by I Am The Knight

And again in TDK, he was willing to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel. In MOTP, I believe he wanted to financially help the police to make up for not being Batman, and in TDK he wanted to um...Well Dent was on the scene so apparently everyting would be fine now

In The Dark Knight, Bruce thought that Gotham City was approaching a day when it wouldn't need Batman because the police would do their jobs.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

it wouldn't have added that much to the narrative to be fair, unless they decided to bring the phantasm back to the fold.

i quite liked the fact bruce never saw her again, some characters i feel are just not meant to reoccur.

unlike kyodia-ken, he definitely should have featured more, i thought he was aweome.

I'm not saying she should have reappeared, I just would have liked the events in the film to have been brought up again. Maybe just reference Andrea, without her actually showing up. That's all.

I actually beg to differ with regards to bruce. He makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

the reason it's a cliche is that it's probably the only thing that could have changed the course of bruce. Like he said, he never counted on being happy, what makes anyone happier than being in a relationship with someone they truly care about.

besides having nothing stop potentially stopping him makes him a 2 dimensional character.

i don't get what you mean about the defining.

the killing aspect wouldn't stop andrea being the phantasm, it didn't stop bruce being batman, it was merely a sympton of being eaten up by the path of vengeance.

I would say the batman mask itself is not what scares alfred, it's the eyes (hence why we get a close up of the eyes)m bruce's eyes are what have become scary and not the costume and his eyes are defined by his almaganated loss. he didn't have fear in his eyes before (i am a believer the costume itself is irrelevant and the eyes are the telling part as they are focussed on alot in motp). in fairness his costume is no less intimidating than supermans, or lets say...black canary.

i don't see anything wrong with bruce wanting to not be batman, being batman isnt' a great thing as everyone who's ever worked with bruce has encountered.

because inhumanity which isn't rationalised in adult hood is just plain lunacy.

the only reason bruce becomes strong to the actions of others in dcau is because he was royally burned by andrea back in the day. Even in perchance to dream if he had his perfect life, andrea wouldn't have been part of it, that's how much she burnt him.

as females in superhero films go, she's certainly the best love interest to date and is a double beacor warning of what the hero could have had or could have become if he didn't walk that line so finely. andrea beaumont is everything good and everything bad in bruce at the same time.

I think it's one of the very best Batman movies, and one of the best superhero films period. I'd call it on par with Batman Begins as second best behind TDK, which is fitting considering both movies deal heavily with Bruce's early days and the creation of Batman. It is probably the apex of the TAS continuum, and the score by Shirley Walker is in my opinion the best ever written for a bat-flick.

I actually beg to differ with regards to bruce. He makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

I think no one would want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

That is PRECISELY why Batman is such a remarkable character. That's why no other orphan in the world makes such a decision. Because no one else can do what he does.

If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

the reason it's a cliche is that it's probably the only thing that could have changed the course of bruce. Like he said, he never counted on being happy, what makes anyone happier than being in a relationship with someone they truly care about.

Yeah, that's how the average man would feel and do. Forget everything before it starts because of a girl. Batman should be above that. At least when he is not Batman yet.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

besides having nothing stop potentially stopping him makes him a 2 dimensional character.

Yeah. Determination is two dimensional.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

i don't get what you mean about the defining.

That loving a girl is not part of the Batman origin equation. Revenge, justice, hatred, frustration. But not a girl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

I would say the batman mask itself is not what scares alfred, it's the eyes (hence why we get a close up of the eyes)m bruce's eyes are what have become scary and not the costume and his eyes are defined by his almaganated loss. he didn't have fear in his eyes before (i am a believer the costume itself is irrelevant and the eyes are the telling part as they are focussed on alot in motp). in fairness his costume is no less intimidating than supermans, or lets say...black canary.

First of all, if you think the bat-suit is irrelevant then maybe you'd like some average vigilante in a coat but with hate in his glance. The suit is the core of the Batman character. It is what Bruce built in order to scare criminals. Countles stories have been told about how Bruce tried to fight crime wiothout the suit and failed miserably.

And Batman suit is comparable to Black Canary's or Superman's? I mean, shiny colors vs black, mask vs no mask and a long etc.

Now, if you tell me that Bruce didn't have fear in his yees before a girl broke his heart, then why bother in including the Waynes' killing? Let's make this superhero that scares people because he has a broken heart. According to you, a girl walking out of someone is what really gives you what's needed to scare people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

i don't see anything wrong with bruce wanting to not be batman, being batman isnt' a great thing as everyone who's ever worked with bruce has encountered.

Sure, let's make movies about Bruce Wayne and not Batman. Why having a character with cool suits and gadgets and a huge internal conflict when you can have a billionaire with love's sorrows?

What's wrong with it?

What's wrong is that if anything would stop Bruce of becoming Batman should be more than just a girl.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

because inhumanity which isn't rationalised in adult hood is just plain lunacy.

He rationalizes it into this Batman figure who will bring justice to this world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

the only reason bruce becomes strong to the actions of others in dcau is because he was royally burned by andrea back in the day. Even in perchance to dream if he had his perfect life, andrea wouldn't have been part of it, that's how much she burnt him.

The birth of Batman is about grieving his parents. That's what burnt him, not some girl that left him.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

as females in superhero films go, she's certainly the best love interest to date and is a double beacor warning of what the hero could have had or could have become if he didn't walk that line so finely. andrea beaumont is everything good and everything bad in bruce at the same time.

Sorry, but Catwoman is the one. She's the one that mirrors him with her double life, mask and intyernal conflict. This Andrea - before she became the Phantasm which is when Bruce decided that she was hot enough to quit his mision before starting it - is not the troubled soul Catwoman is.

I think no one would want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.

there are plenty of things 8 year olds would like to be. infact i've wanted to be a pilot since i was five. 8 is not that young to have a career goal.

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That is PRECISELY why Batman is such a remarkable character. That's why no other orphan in the world makes such a decision. Because no one else can do what he does.

it doesn't make him remarkable, it just kinda makes him a lil damaged and odd.

If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.

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Yeah, that's how the average man would feel and do. Forget everything before it starts because of a girl. Batman should be above that. At least when he is not Batman yet.

wait, here you are judging bruce's qualities as batman before he even becomes batman.

but in the beginning he is just bruce and is not and has had no experience of being batman.

and you forget, it's not because of a girl, he specifically states 'he didn't count on being happy'. to be fair, whether it was andrea or heroin, it wouldn't matter as such but the result would remain. but bruce was ultimately saved from himself before he falls too far.

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Yeah. Determination is two dimensional.

sure, on its own it is. anything on its own is.

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That loving a girl is not part of the Batman origin equation. Revenge, justice, hatred, frustration. But not a girl.

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First of all, if you think the bat-suit is irrelevant then maybe you'd like some average vigilante in a coat but with hate in his glance. The suit is the core of the Batman character. It is what Bruce built in order to scare criminals. Countles stories have been told about how Bruce tried to fight crime wiothout the suit and failed miserably.

And Batman suit is comparable to Black Canary's or Superman's? I mean, shiny colors vs black, mask vs no mask and a long etc.

Now, if you tell me that Bruce didn't have fear in his yees before a girl broke his heart, then why bother in including the Waynes' killing? Let's make this superhero that scares people because he has a broken heart. According to you, a girl walking out of someone is what really gives you what's needed to scare people.

now you really walked into this one

watch the dcau episode where the justice league see their future coutnerparts, and batman meets bruce wayne of the future.

the old bruce manages without any form of costume to scare the life outta the joker goon, no costume necessary, heck the younger one is quite surprised by the methods.

that's all eyes. The suit builds around this but it's eyes first and foremost. put another character in it and it won't have the same affect.

and i think you are oversimplyfing andreas role in this film, she's not just a girl, she is the only thing that's ever made him happy since his parents died. she was effectively his crutch out of dispair and when he was just bout to climb out of it, she pushed him right to those depth again, closed the door and threw away the key

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Sure, let's make movies about Bruce Wayne and not Batman. Why having a character with cool suits and gadgets and a huge internal conflict when you can have a billionaire with love's sorrows?

why isn't there room to do both, again, why are you boxing him up into a simple character.

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What's wrong with it?

What's wrong is that if anything would stop Bruce of becoming Batman should be more than just a girl.

well clearly from the story, obviously not.

and you keep saying batman, he's not batman, he's just bruce wayne at this time. nothing can stop batman being batman, bur andrea could stop bruce (actually she had a chance to stop batman as well but in that case they woudl be saving each other).

look at the stupid reason batman stopped in the first place, his health collasped and he was forced to use a gun. hardly a reason to let innocent victims be taken down by thugs for the next 20 years.

again, somewhat childish.

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He rationalizes it into this Batman figure who will bring justice to this world.

how can he rationalise it into a figure that doesn't exist yet? he didn't even KNOW he needed an alternate persona till his first attempts with the muggers went poorly.

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The birth of Batman is about grieving his parents. That's what burnt him, not some girl that left him.

the story isnt about the birth of batman, it's about the death of bruce wayne. there's a complete difference and i'm not sure you are getting the subtleties of it.

in a sense, the andrea beaumont escapade was bruce's last touch with humanity and the story is how he lost touch with everything

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Sorry, but Catwoman is the one. She's the one that mirrors him with her double life, mask and intyernal conflict. This Andrea - before she became the Phantasm which is when Bruce decided that she was hot enough to quit his mision before starting it - is not the troubled soul Catwoman is.

Catwoman is everything good and bad Bruce is as Batman.

selina kyle never loved bruce, she loved batman, therefore that relationship could never go anywhere.

oh this is just insane. she took a far darker path than bruce did, she did the training, got the phantasm gear and systematically killed everyone involved with her father's murder while abroad for a considerable amount of time. Hers is even worse, bruce's parents were at the wrong place at the wrong time, andrea's dad was assassinated by his old colleagues in cold blood after being on the run. if that doesn't mess someone up, i don't know what would.

its alright to not want to like andrea but you can't underplay her role in bruce's story. It's huge.

and that's not even considering his actions with her, lead to her sparing terry's father's life and leads to bruce's eventual relationship with his son. So in a sense, bruce did save her in the end since she wasn't willing to see another child go through what he did.

It's less Elfman-heavy than her work on TAS, which in its early days at least utilized Elfman's main theme quite a bit. Mask of the Phantasm, however, only uses Walker's own themes and material, creating a sound that is reminiscent of the Burton films but still goes beyond it. When I listen to the score, I hear Batman music than transcends specific directors and cinematic takes on the character, and instead hear the Batman of all eras and incarnations.

Thanks I needed a good laugh. She's the best Batman love interest ever who's only been introduced in a 1hr 17 minute film. Then never ever used again. While Catwoman has been in 70 years of comics, as well as tv shows, animated series and three live action movies (including TDKR, excluding Catwoman (2004) aka CINO). Whose relationship with Batman has developed and matured for years. Including their alter egos. Don't get me wrong I think Andrea served her purpose in MOTP. And she's an interesting character. But her relationship with Batman or Bruce wasn't meant to be. She isn't even close to the best love interest. Not by a long shot, imo.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

damn straight, it makes catwoman seem...balanced and like a small crush, and talia seem like an escort,

I guess if you're going by TAS, which is still a load of bull. To each their own.

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there's an episode where bruce is looking at old love interests and her picture isn't part of the list, that grates me but i just guess her pic is too painful to look at and he doesn't have any in the house.

Or maybe the writers just thought she was a plot device and nothing more. She served her purpose in MOTP. Her cahracter was made for MOTP that's probably why TAS or wherever you saw that from didn't include her in the photos.

Thanks I needed a good laugh. She's the best Batman love interest ever who's only been introduced in a 1hr 17 minute film. Then never ever used again. While Catwoman has been in 70 years of comics, as well as tv shows, animated series and three live action movies (including TDKR, excluding Catwoman (2004) aka CINO). Whose relationship with Batman has developed and matured for years. Including their alter egos. Don't get me wrong I think Andrea served her purpose in MOTP. And she's an interesting character. But her relationship with Batman or Bruce wasn't meant to be. She isn't even close to the best love interest. Not by a long shot, imo.

I guess if you're going by TAS, which is still a load of bull. To each their own.

Or maybe the writers just thought she was a plot device and nothing more. She served her purpose in MOTP. Her cahracter was made for MOTP that's probably why TAS or wherever you saw that from didn't include her in the photos.

Wholeheartedly agreed. That's my biggest problem with the character: She is made to be far too important to never mention again.

So do you think the same about Rachel Dawes in the Nolan films? I highly doubt we'll see those in any other movies or books.

I don't think she's the best love interest for Batman, but I highly doubt that there won't be a mention of her in The Dark Knight Rises. I don't mind that both Andrea Beaumont and Rachel Dawes only exist in a single continuity. My problem is that Andrea is never mentioned again in the DCAU, the continuity she is supposed to crucial to.

I don't think she's the best love interest for Batman, but I highly doubt that there won't be a mention of her in The Dark Knight Rises. I don't mind that both Andrea Beaumont and Rachel Dawes only exist in a single continuity. My problem is that Andrea is never mentioned again in the DCAU, the continuity she is supposed to crucial to.

Technically, she was mentioned again in Justine League Unlimited - "Epilogue."
Her role (even though nonspeaking,) was still important.

there are plenty of things 8 year olds would like to be. infact i've wanted to be a pilot since i was five. 8 is not that young to have a career goal.

Mh, it was you who said ďHe makes a decision as the age of 8 to dedicate his life to a cause. A concept of doubt towards committing to that is obviously going to creep in. How many people want to do something at 8 and actually manage it, let alone dedicate their lives to something.Ē

Then I agreed with you that few people can decide something at 8 and keep it without doubting about it. Now you disagree with me. Vicariously youíre disagreeing with yourself.

So, what is it? Regular people doubt or not about decision made at 8.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

it doesn't make him remarkable, it just kinda makes him a lil damaged and odd.

Determination = damage, oddity.

According to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

If we could find opther people with such a determination, then Batman would be just another guy in a bat suit.

Which is precisely my point: you canít.

Regular guys would forget everything because of a hot girl before starting. Bruce wouldnít.

AFTER he is Batman and he thinks thereís no point in keep being it, thatís a different song.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

wait, here you are judging bruce's qualities as batman before he even becomes batman.

but in the beginning he is just bruce and is not and has had no experience of being batman.

But if traditionally Bruce decided to avenge his parentsí mirder, and he still want that at 20-something, that describes a part of Bruce Batman still has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

and you forget, it's not because of a girl, he specifically states 'he didn't count on being happy'. to be fair, whether it was andrea or heroin, it wouldn't matter as such but the result would remain. but bruce was ultimately saved from himself before he falls too far.

The result must always be the same: he becomes Batman.

Now what makes him doubt before becoming Batman is what matters here. And a girl sounds cliched (Ďlove can change peopleí) and insufficient (just a girl? Really. That close he was of not becoming Batman because of a girl?).

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Originally Posted by November Rain

sure, on its own it is. anything on its own is.

No. Determination is never on its own. Nothing ever is. Everything is within a context, linked to a number of other factors.

Only treatments are 2 dimensional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

now you really walked into this one

watch the dcau episode where the justice league see their future coutnerparts, and batman meets bruce wayne of the future.

the old bruce manages without any form of costume to scare the life outta the joker goon, no costume necessary, heck the younger one is quite surprised by the methods.

that's all eyes. The suit builds around this but it's eyes first and foremost. put another character in it and it won't have the same affect.

So, I should learn from the very take on the character that I am precisely critizising?

As I said, if your idea of Batman is a billionaire without a bat-suit, knock yourself out.

Some of us think a Batman story must include Batman. There is a bat before the man. And for a good reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

and i think you are oversimplyfing andreas role in this film, she's not just a girl, she is the only thing that's ever made him happy since his parents died. she was effectively his crutch out of dispair and when he was just bout to climb out of it, she pushed him right to those depth again, closed the door and threw away the key

Or Bruce could have been a father and find happiness in parenthood. Or he could have surrender to a good self-destructive pleasurable life and find happžness in that.

Options are many.

But thatís not a part of what Batman origin story is. And a girl in not either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

why isn't there room to do both, again, why are you boxing him up into a simple character.

On the contrary. I say Batman includes both Bruce Wayne and Batman.

You say Batmanís suit is irrelevant. Bruce just need some angry eyes and thatís it.

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Originally Posted by November Rain

well clearly from the story, obviously not.

Which is why Iím critizising such story. Remember?

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

and you keep saying batman, he's not batman, he's just bruce wayne at this time. nothing can stop batman being batman, bur andrea could stop bruce (actually she had a chance to stop batman as well but in that case they woudl be saving each other).

Batmanís determination and obsession didnít start with his mask. It started with Bruce Wayne. The mask was just the culmination of a long process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

look at the stupid reason batman stopped in the first place, his health collasped and he was forced to use a gun. hardly a reason to let innocent victims be taken down by thugs for the next 20 years.

again, somewhat childish.

Iím not sure where did this happen?

But to doubt of what youíve been sure of because of a girl is, again, quite cliched. Andrea was just placed there in an attempt to re-tell Batmanís origin. But she was not needed. Batman doesnít start because Bruce couldnít get married. His anger doesnít come from a failed romance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

how can he rationalise it into a figure that doesn't exist yet? he didn't even KNOW he needed an alternate persona till his first attempts with the muggers went poorly.

He rationalizes it in the process of becoming Batman also. He kept drawing sketches about what he needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

the story isnt about the birth of batman, it's about the death of bruce wayne. there's a complete difference and i'm not sure you are getting the subtleties of it.

Iím certainly not getting the subtleties of your own personal poetric re-phrasing of what the film is. Batman is born in the movie, therefore is a Batman origin movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

in a sense, the andrea beaumont escapade was bruce's last touch with humanity and the story is how he lost touch with everything

Yeah, that last touch with humanity could be portrayed in many different ways. Iím saying a girl is one of the most cliched ones they could have chosen. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with becoming Batman. Becoming Batman has never included a broken heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

selina kyle never loved bruce, she loved batman, therefore that relationship could never go anywhere.

Which does not contradict anything I said.

A good love interest is not the one that goes somewhere necessarily. Best love interests, from Romeo and Juliet, and this improvised Andrea Beaumont thing, donít go anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

oh this is just insane. she took a far darker path than bruce did, she did the training, got the phantasm gear and systematically killed everyone involved with her father's murder while abroad for a considerable amount of time. Hers is even worse, bruce's parents were at the wrong place at the wrong time, andrea's dad was assassinated by his old colleagues in cold blood after being on the run. if that doesn't mess someone up, i don't know what would.

Catwoman is all that too.

But naturally she IS part of Batman history and nobody thought of having her as some reason for Bruce NOT wanting to become Batman in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

its alright to not want to like andrea but you can't underplay her role in bruce's story. It's huge.

I donít. History does. She has never become part of the official Bruceís story. Andrea was an element other people rapidly forgot about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by November Rain

and that's not even considering his actions with her, lead to her sparing terry's father's life and leads to bruce's eventual relationship with his son. So in a sense, bruce did save her in the end since she wasn't willing to see another child go through what he did.

Despite this film being half the length (somes less than half) of all the other Bat films, it manages to tell a tighter, more character focused story than all of them (Begins being tied with it imo). It manages to cram a lot of information and revelations into a small runtime and it all works outs flawlessly. The only real complaints I have are merely superficial and easily forgotten. I prefer it over TDK, Rises, Batman 89, Returns and honestly it's not below Begins either, merely right up along side it.