UIC-type Y:– made from 1965 to 1969, sleepers and diners until the 1980's– variants: 1st, 2nd and mixed 1st and 2nd class coaches, 2nd class couchette coaches, diners, sleepers, Soviet-style sleepers (exchangeable trucks for two gauges, ribbed sides, different window and compartment arrangements, some air-conditioned)– delivered to Czechoslovakia (all versions, some regular sleepers equipped with exchangeable trucks for two gauges and Soviet-style EOT lights), GDR (no diners and no Soviet-style sleepers); sleepers also went to Poland (300 cars, all equipped with exchangeable trucks for two gauges and Soviet-style EOT lights), Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria; Soviet-style sleepers went (besides Czechoslovakia) to Soviet Union

standard-(fitting both ОСЖД [OSZhD] and UIC standards)-type Y/B70:– made from 1969 to the 1980's– variants: 1st, 2nd and mixed 1st and 2nd class coaches, 2nd class couchette coaches, combined 2nd class coaches with baggage compartment, baggage cars (and I'm not sure if also combined baggage cars with RPO compartment), customized and air-conditioned variants for non-European customers, special versions for government and military trains of various countries– I don't have an overview which variants were delivered to which countries. Customers were: GDR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

If we are going to assign a point value, let's not forget one very important point: Tillig is actually releasing the models they list. I have been sitting on my Kuehn CD Y/B 70 for over two years waiting for the other cars to go with it.

CSD wrote:If we are going to assign a point value, let's not forget one very important point: Tillig is actually releasing the models they list. I have been sitting on my Kuehn CD Y/B 70 for over two years waiting for the other cars to go with it.

Let me correct your statement:Tillig is actually releasing some of the models they list.

I wanted to buy DSB Desiro last year, but Tillig decided not to release it

To CSD: We all have to wait patiently. We have to take in consideration that Kuehn is in fact a smaller company than Tillig. And to confirm what jp wrote, for a fact that it is true, that Tillig lists a lot of models and will release just some of them. We can go thru their catalogs, better say their "NEWS" flyers from previous years. False advertisement will affect Tillig greatly!

I have been following Tillig product releases since they took over Zueke. It seems to me that they live up to most of their product listings. The only ones that I have followed that have not been released have been "Einmalauflagen" (one time editions), which are only released when there are enough orders to justify a product run (as stated in their literature). So, Kuehn is a smaller company and deserves some slack? Okay, I agree. But, the other side of that coin is that Tillig has the biggest catalogue of TT items in the world to maintain and should also deserve of a break.

To CSD: Thank you for the compliment! By the way, please don't get me wrong. I was not trying to put you down, nor prove you wrong in any way, the thing is that I was trying to prove a point based on the real facts that Tillig dissapointed a lot of modelers and private collectors over the years when he was the man in charge. I was not talking about the special order articles (limited edition), I was talking about regular catalog listed items. Good example: steam locomotive BR 50, it took Tillig 6 years to release the model on the market. I got tired of waiting that I am not interested in buying it anymore. Another example is the (steam) locos that he took possesion after he bought former Jatt company. They sat on the back burner for a long time, then he sold the rights to MMS to manufacture them, exchanging hands back and forth. All I'm doing is, I'm trying to help out TT ers all over the world (at least the ones on this forum) by sharing my ideas with them. I know that once I modify an original model, it looses its value (if I will sell it to someone else), but the thing with me is that I'm not happy with the way all the companies that manufacture TT scale models, they leave something out. Even if it is one detail, I will not rest until I add it to the model. I collect these models and modify them by adding extra details (no weathering), that I feel it make the model look much better and later on in life (probably after I'll retire) I will get a chance to build a layout to run my models on top of it. I agree with you that Tillig is the mass producer of TT scale European prototype models in the world, but I think we should give Kuehn some credit for trying and we should be happy about the fact that there is some other company besides Tillig, that makes us spend some money to keep us busy.

j p wrote:... I wanted to buy DSB Desiro last year, but Tillig decided not to release it

That is not a fair example. There was no guarantee that that model would be produced as it was a special single edition. They only get made if there enough pre orders.

Ok, another example:V36 in ÖBB version (2065.01), Tillig number 04632.Look at the pictures on the net http://www.google.dk/search?q=tillig+04632&hl=da&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RzJyUbOxLcqEtAa0hYGYCQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=962&bih=726I ordered it with black wheels - it was also in their catalogue with black wheels, but it arrived with red wheels. They changed to red wheels without bothering to change the product number. Now I have to paint the wheels or order the black wheels as spare parts... It was OK to do with old cheap BTTB models. I would expect more for the price I have to pay for Tillig's products.Is it a big problem to feed the injection moulding machine with black granulate instead of red?

Regarding Tillig's special single editions: you can see DSB MY (NOHAB) in red-black paint scheme in this year's catalogue as a "special single edition". Fine. The only minor detail is that it is the same one as the one made 3-4 years ago as a limited edition. They even didn't bother to change the road number. Maybe it has a better motor, yes. Who would order it then? 99% of people doing DSB have it already at home.And that is a prototype which has dozens of different paint schemes to choose from.

Sorry for off-topic.

Regarding the Y/B 70 from Kuehn: I am waiting 5 years for the version I need. Same with double-deckers. Maybe they come this summer. Thanks for the inspiration how to improve them.