Why can't we let it go easily? - Atheist Nexus2018-05-24T18:12:48Zhttp://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/why-cant-we-let-it-go-easily?groupUrl=recoveringreligionists&commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A1149980&xg_source=activity&groupId=2182797%3AGroup%3A378692&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI climbed out from a car wrec…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-08-22:2182797:Comment:15628772011-08-22T06:54:14.445ZNerdlasshttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/Nerdlass
<p>I climbed out from a car wreck. Mom called it a miracle. I called it a second chance. Some words lose their original meanings or change. Consider 'holiday'. I doubt many people think 'holy day' when they get the day off, especially for the Fourth of July or some other national holiday.</p>
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<p>So to me, to count your blessings is not a religious thing, but a cultural one. It just means to be thankful for not befalling the ill you see out there. It doesn't mean we cannot be…</p>
<p>I climbed out from a car wreck. Mom called it a miracle. I called it a second chance. Some words lose their original meanings or change. Consider 'holiday'. I doubt many people think 'holy day' when they get the day off, especially for the Fourth of July or some other national holiday.</p>
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<p>So to me, to count your blessings is not a religious thing, but a cultural one. It just means to be thankful for not befalling the ill you see out there. It doesn't mean we cannot be conscientious or compassionate to those who have had bad things happen to them. Just that we should appreciate the ups a bit. Don't feel guilty about it, either. Not many of us wish harm on others. It's not our fault for their accident we pass by on the road.</p> My background includes Jehova…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-08-17:2182797:Comment:15429682011-08-17T08:54:22.676ZRoland St.Georgehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/RolandStGeorge
<p>My background includes Jehovah's Witness, Presbyterian, Mormonism, Buddhism, New Age Spiritualism and Fundamentalism (the most recent and for over 20 yrs). I began questioning several years ago, and when I couldn't find answers that made sense to the questions I had, which were based on plain old critical thought...finally in 2010 I officially shed the last of theistic beliefs and declared atheism. </p>
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<p>Deconversion has been a process. I do understand the issues mentioned in…</p>
<p>My background includes Jehovah's Witness, Presbyterian, Mormonism, Buddhism, New Age Spiritualism and Fundamentalism (the most recent and for over 20 yrs). I began questioning several years ago, and when I couldn't find answers that made sense to the questions I had, which were based on plain old critical thought...finally in 2010 I officially shed the last of theistic beliefs and declared atheism. </p>
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<p>Deconversion has been a process. I do understand the issues mentioned in the original post and subsequent replies. One thing that helped me was understanding that "apologetics" is the theological way of glossing over the unsavory parts of the character of (what I had been taught to believe was) "god"...as portrayed in the bible, while credulously accepting the wonderful attributes at face value. I mean, it's very easy to adore and worship a god who does great things...that is, of course, when you're not thinking about all the tyrannical, horrible things that god has done...or the tyrannical control that god exerts over your own life (for instance, it's nice to think there's a personal god on your side when you need help...but how often do theists stop to think that the same god is listening to their thoughts and judging them every time they think about sex, or being angry at their spouse, boss, kids, neighbor, etc.) Most don't stop to put 2 and 2 together. Why does "god" get credit for all the wonderful things in the world, but not the blame for all the bad? When you get a raise and can buy a bigger house that you don't really need, it's "Praise God!" (never mind that 13% of the world's population doesn't have enough food). But when 250,000 people are killed in a tsunami, it's just an act of nature and you can't blame god (even though "god" supposedly created the earth and nature"). Eventually, you start to see that the emperor is naked. That's when you are labeled a heretic and chased out because you are under the influence of demons (anyone who has been a fundamentalist or pentecostal will understand what I'm talking about here).</p>
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<p>I realize that the bible and Christianity aren't the only representations of the concept of deity (or even that fundamentalism and Pentecostalism aren't the only representations of Christianity), but I had already resolved the issue that many religions claim to be the "only" truth so it's one word against the other. Mormons are convinced that their church is the one truth. Muslims are convinced that the Koran is the one truth. Christians are convinced that Jesus is the one truth. Jews are convinced that they are "god's chosen people". The list goes on. Sincerity is no guarantee of truth, neither is the size of the group of believers, or how fast it is growing, etc. An unsubstantiated belief held by millions is still an unsubstantiated belief, nothing more.</p>
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<p>People also tend to make up the god they want based on how their experiences happen to coincide with their information, regardless of the theology they follow. Since each person's experience and information are both different and subjective, and since there are over 6 billion people on the earth, there are most likely over 6 billion different concepts/definitions of "deity". They may overlap in areas, and be very similar, but they will ultimately be as unique as a snowflake...no two exactly alike.</p>
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<p> </p> Rachel, As a victim of some r…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-08-12:2182797:Comment:15248182011-08-12T21:30:45.641ZEric A Flynnhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/EricAFlynn
<p>Rachel, As a victim of some rather severe religious indoctrination and abuse, I can fully appreciate what you are talking about. I have had PTSD and anxiety/panic disorder since about age 8 and it came to a head at about age 26. I was having phantom heart attacks and become agoraphobic. All this after I had intellectually rejected religion years earlier, but was still operating under a tremendous psychological and emotional burden. That said, here are the things which have been a…</p>
<p>Rachel, As a victim of some rather severe religious indoctrination and abuse, I can fully appreciate what you are talking about. I have had PTSD and anxiety/panic disorder since about age 8 and it came to a head at about age 26. I was having phantom heart attacks and become agoraphobic. All this after I had intellectually rejected religion years earlier, but was still operating under a tremendous psychological and emotional burden. That said, here are the things which have been a tremendous help in my journey out of bondage:</p>
<p>1) EMDR Therapy. This stands for "Eye Movement Densitization Reprogramming". I can hardly emphasize this enough. It has changed my life. I used to wake up screaming and lashing out with trauma dreams. After 6 months with an EMDR Therapist, I had only 2 episodes. After a year, I have not had any at all. The fear, pain and guilt are gradually receding.</p>
<p>2) Mindfulness. This is the practice of checking in with your body and mind, to see the degree to which are you tensing/relaxing, breathing/breatholding, etc. It is also just noticing when your assumptions clash with reality and making a note of it. Even after years of readjustment, I am still having little epiphanies about assumptions I was raised with, which have turned out to be false.</p>
<p>3) Make gods into humans. Learn the history of how our "sacred texts" and gods were formed, so that you can really see the human invention in all of it. I have found the books and lectures of Bart Ehrman particularly helpful in this regard.</p>
<p>4) Find good role models. Over the years, I have adopted very dear friends who now take the place of the healthy father, mother, brother I never had. This has been tremendously healing and helped me to feel more normal than just about anything else.</p>
<p>5) Follow some deconversion stories. You are not alone and hearing the experiences of others which mirror your own is an incredible relief. In particular, I commend your attention to the YouTube series by Evid3nc3.</p> James,
I think Rachael's beef…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-07-27:2182797:Comment:14683242011-07-27T18:51:16.513ZKasey Korthttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/KerryCort
<p>James,</p>
<p>I think Rachael's beef is with her own negative experience with religion, as well as other's she has known who share a negative experience. It's unavoidable to point a negative finger at a belief system you have had a negative experience with, especially one that claims complete authority over everything, which most religions do. </p>
<p>The Judeo-Christian god claims complete dominance over the whole universe and everything inhabiting it; including the right to tell us how to…</p>
<p>James,</p>
<p>I think Rachael's beef is with her own negative experience with religion, as well as other's she has known who share a negative experience. It's unavoidable to point a negative finger at a belief system you have had a negative experience with, especially one that claims complete authority over everything, which most religions do. </p>
<p>The Judeo-Christian god claims complete dominance over the whole universe and everything inhabiting it; including the right to tell us how to live our lives and what to think. That is what the bible proclaims. This isn't just a matter of, 'oh well, this belief didn't work for me' and move on happily to something else. Leaving the belief that there is an omnipotent being can really rupture your mental state (unless you never deeply believed there was such a being).</p>
<p>Most 'believers' give lip service (as far as my own experience goes); if some doctrine or religious principle comes up that comes into conflict with how they want to live their life they put on blinders to it, and really never consider the impact of what those doctrines and principles really mean.</p>
<p>The bible is about mind control. Pure and simple. If you take it seriously, as I did, it has enormous impact on you. And a life you could have lived without it won't happen, since you are trying to live according to the bible; remember the passages in the bible where we are supposed to let His will and not ours be done? </p>
<p>It sounds as if Rachael took her belief very seriously and now is having difficulty putting it away, as I am. To many religion is just associating with a church that you enjoy going to that makes you feel good and has nice people to associate with and doesn't condemn you or what you like to do. If you don't like it you look for one that suits you. </p>
<p>For others, it's about searching out the Truth of God and obeying it because it is all real. You change your life to suit God, not the other way around. This perspective is the one that can really damage you because 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' This is where the guilt and self-doubt come in.</p>
<p>You mention where the bible says 'the truth shall set you free'; for many who had believed, it WAS true. When you find out it isn't and you know that it has disrupted your life and others you know, you WILL say that it is a negative thing. It sounds to me as if you were'nt deeply wound up with it as Rachael, or myself. I used to speak at my denominations' churches up and down the East Coast for years before finally admitting my doubts to myself that it all didn't make sense. To me, and others, religion is either true or not. There is a god or there isn't. If there isn't, shed the guilt and drop the ceremonies; why practice something that isn't true? </p>
<p>There are churches who merely function as vehicles for socialization and comfort, but mine and others like it stated that you needed to accept the bible as literal and obey it or you were damned. Nothing comfy or cozy about that.</p>
<p>Anyways, I've gone on too long. I'll just say that if what you believe makes you feel good, helps you make positive, healthy choices and it doesn't condemn others, fine. If it automatically puts you in a position of condemnation (original sin), and encourages you to condemn other's beliefs, than that is negative. Unless those beliefs bring about negative actions, ie terrorism.</p> Rachel, even though I lean mo…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-07-27:2182797:Comment:14673432011-07-27T16:39:20.296ZJames Allisonhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/JamesAllison
Rachel, even though I lean more towards atheism then I ever did in the past, I can't seem to totally give up on the Bible or the god-belief. Religion does not scare me - the misuse of it does. An atheist with an attitude can be just as dangerous as a believer with one. I am still reading material from the Church of God founded by Herbert W Armstrong, whose take on the Bible is different from mainstream churches. There beliefs are a bit more digestable then what one gets from other churches. He…
Rachel, even though I lean more towards atheism then I ever did in the past, I can't seem to totally give up on the Bible or the god-belief. Religion does not scare me - the misuse of it does. An atheist with an attitude can be just as dangerous as a believer with one. I am still reading material from the Church of God founded by Herbert W Armstrong, whose take on the Bible is different from mainstream churches. There beliefs are a bit more digestable then what one gets from other churches. He believed that both god and the Bible can be proven as true. He gets away from doctrines like the trinity, hell fire, immortal soul, and does not celebrate the pagan holidays now dressed up in christian clothing. I choose not to rebell against god or the bible, nor do I rebell against atheism. Both have their points and both have passionate followers. Religion is not going away any time soon. Man will always have some type of belief system that will give him purpose and reason to live. Pointing a negative finger at someone elses beliefs is not the answer. The Bible is correct - the truth will set us free. That should be our pursuit no matter what our belief system. Rachel, I don't know if this…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-07-26:2182797:Comment:14643252011-07-26T18:04:44.540ZTim R.http://atheistnexus.org/profile/TimRahn
<p>Rachel, I don't know if this is still relevant to you but if not it is maybe helpful for someone else.</p>
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<p>I am currently reading a really good book which is called "Leaving the fold" written by Marlene Winell. It is a guide for former fundamentalists and others leaving their religion. It deals with the recovery process (5 Phases), manipulation techniques that are used in fundamentalist churches, why it is so hard to let go and helps to create an own life and personality after…</p>
<p>Rachel, I don't know if this is still relevant to you but if not it is maybe helpful for someone else.</p>
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<p>I am currently reading a really good book which is called "Leaving the fold" written by Marlene Winell. It is a guide for former fundamentalists and others leaving their religion. It deals with the recovery process (5 Phases), manipulation techniques that are used in fundamentalist churches, why it is so hard to let go and helps to create an own life and personality after this was highly suppressed before. I am half through it and I highly recommend to read it. I just left my fundamental christian church 3 month ago and that is really tough when you are the first in the extended family and you are bombarded by emails, calls and letters telling you how much they pray for you and how much they love you :/</p>
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<p>I even recommend therapy sessions if it doesn't get better and you got stuck somewhere in the recovery process.</p> I think it is hard to let it…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-07-25:2182797:Comment:14593282011-07-25T01:28:27.424ZKasey Korthttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/KerryCort
<p>I think it is hard to let it go because most societies all over the world teach some belief in a higher being and this has been going on for all recorded history. A belief in a higher being has always been part of the fabric of every society I know of (if anyone knows of an atheist society anywhere in history please let me know).</p>
<p>It is part of most of our up-bringing and is still very pervasive in most countries. To just throw it away is very hard. I still wonder at times about a…</p>
<p>I think it is hard to let it go because most societies all over the world teach some belief in a higher being and this has been going on for all recorded history. A belief in a higher being has always been part of the fabric of every society I know of (if anyone knows of an atheist society anywhere in history please let me know).</p>
<p>It is part of most of our up-bringing and is still very pervasive in most countries. To just throw it away is very hard. I still wonder at times about a 'divine' being, but when I look at my own specific religion (an off-shoot of Christian protestantism), I see a lot of logic problems that just don't go away. I think for me this is the predominant thing that keeps me away from religion; that it doesn't make sense when you compare what the bible's various writers have said. When you also look historically at how the bible was put together (all the debates among the early Catholic church at what books should be in and what shouldn't), it just can't help make you stop and wonder, if you at all are sceptical.</p>
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<p>I think that what it comes down to is that whatever your individual society conditions you to believe, you will accept. And when a circumstance arises that makes you question that belief it will still be hard to let it go because there is always some kind of logic in it that makes you think, "you know, there is a certain amount of sense to it."although when you play it out in the big picture, like I tried to explain in the above paragraph, it doesn't hold up. It is mostly conditioning. </p>
<p>Just look at the huge number of different beliefs; and not just religion; political systems, family structure, values, etc. All believed in very strongly by each group. We can believe anything. Our brain has developed to sense a need for structure of some kind in many different facets of our life and religion is a structure that is very hard to let go of until we have something to replace it with.</p>
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<p>Sorry for my rambling; I'm getting these thoughts out as an on-going part of my personal healing, de-programming; whatever you want to call it.</p> I think sometimes, it is easi…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-05-22:2182797:Comment:12816702011-05-22T19:41:41.584ZRhonda Boyerhttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/RhondaBoyer
<p>I think sometimes, it is easier to deal with what we have known, and are used to. We were taught certain things when we were young, and letting go of them can be hard. There is a comfort level, and a familiarity, even if we know what we were taught isn't what we believe now. </p>
<p>Also, there is the difficulty many of us have when we start talking to people about what we know now doesn't help. For instance, if I told my mother I don't believe in God, that I don't believe what I was…</p>
<p>I think sometimes, it is easier to deal with what we have known, and are used to. We were taught certain things when we were young, and letting go of them can be hard. There is a comfort level, and a familiarity, even if we know what we were taught isn't what we believe now. </p>
<p>Also, there is the difficulty many of us have when we start talking to people about what we know now doesn't help. For instance, if I told my mother I don't believe in God, that I don't believe what I was raised with, and that I don't believe in heaven and hell, she would start preaching at me, and start trying to reconvert me.</p> I'm late to the conversation,…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-03-09:2182797:Comment:11499802011-03-09T19:15:51.884ZNoh Namehttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/NohName
<p>I'm late to the conversation, but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents...</p>
<p>My journey to atheism took about 18 years of searching for god after I left the church. Many things you describe remind me of the things I went through as I deconstructed and reconstructed my beliefs multiple times over the years. There were periods where I was one step away from needing to be institutionalized. Perhaps I should have been. I wish I hadn't been indoctrinated to distrust psychiatry/psychology, but…</p>
<p>I'm late to the conversation, but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents...</p>
<p>My journey to atheism took about 18 years of searching for god after I left the church. Many things you describe remind me of the things I went through as I deconstructed and reconstructed my beliefs multiple times over the years. There were periods where I was one step away from needing to be institutionalized. Perhaps I should have been. I wish I hadn't been indoctrinated to distrust psychiatry/psychology, but that's key to the indoctrination. A few years of therapy would have probably helped me get where I am a lot sooner but what is done is done. What's important is we are here.</p>
<p><em>I'm sorry, this response took on a life of it's own LOL,I got into a short version of my life story after this, if I haven't bored you thus far &amp; you want to skip it it ends at the</em><em>*</em></p>
<p>I have the experience of being indoctrinated from being a tiny toddler until I was about 13. I started questioning Christianity and by the time I was 14 1/2 I had left it never looking back. I developed a hatred of Christian doctrine and recently (over the past several months) was puzzled as to why I returned to the worship of Yahweh in my early 20s.</p>
<p>My parents were just liberal enough to teach me that people that follow blindly often meet nasty ends. And my father instilled a love of science in me. They came right up to the edge of free thought and backed away for whatever reasons, I'm assuming it was their indoctrination. It wasn't until I was in Jr High that I was first exposed to rational/free thought. I have to thank my Science teacher for his patience while I was bombarding him with Creationist fallacies. Asking his help to make sense of the conflict between the sciences that I loved (cosmology, geology, biology etc.) and "creation science" But after that period I fell into the pseudo-science clap trap. Spending several years trying to escape that. As frustrating and at times terrifying as it was I think I have made it.*</p>
<p>I no longer pray, I stopped that a couple months before I realized I was an atheist and hadn't even noticed. I still catch my self saying "Oh god" and "Only the lord knows" Some habits are hard to break. I know they are empty words and are no more then expressions acquired by the language I had inherited. I have been trying to curb it though.</p>
<p>A thought I came to, while inspired by the books I have recently read (God Delusion, The God Virus) a few lectures and such on the subject, was not only the first 13 years my of life's indoctrination had a major influence but our society's reverence for religion and "spirituality" is just as much a part of it. I've known people who grew up in non religious homes that became fundies in their 20s. They never bothered looking at religion and it's effects so it makes sense that they fell for it when they were finally exposed to a strong strain. Religion and "spirituality" is everywhere you turn, and we are expected to make special concessions for it. How can we not be infected unless their is a influence in our lives teaching us how to be free thinkers?</p>
<p>My indoctrination rears it's ugly head at times trying to make me fearful but I have found that rational thought easily defeats it. The first attack, within minutes of it dawning on me that I was an atheist, was what if we become a theocracy and you are persecuted for not believing. And my thought/response was Nothing is worth believing if it's not true. I'd rather be dead then to live my life as a lie.</p>
<p>It sounds as if you became an atheist while still in the church or shortly (meaning a couple years) after it. (If I made an ass of myself by assuming I apologize.) Without help and the neccesary tools it took me 18 years of struggle, drug abuse, and at times near insanity to fight the grip that my indoctrination had on me. Don't give in and get help if you need to. Feel free to drop a line anytime. I go through periods where I don't check in very often but I will respond if I receive a email alert to a PM.</p> I guess I was pretty lucky. I…tag:atheistnexus.org,2011-02-24:2182797:Comment:11356252011-02-24T12:56:28.135ZDoug Bateshttp://atheistnexus.org/profile/DougBates
I guess I was pretty lucky. I didn't have a lot of emotional baggage from religion. I was raised catholic, but converted to methodist. Later, I tried all sorts of different belief systems like paganism and Mormonism before returning to become a Baptist. The Mormons actually got me to study the bible and it was during this study that I began to look into Judaism. After further study I decided that was crap too and that this book was in no way to be taken seriously. Anyway, once I stopped…
I guess I was pretty lucky. I didn't have a lot of emotional baggage from religion. I was raised catholic, but converted to methodist. Later, I tried all sorts of different belief systems like paganism and Mormonism before returning to become a Baptist. The Mormons actually got me to study the bible and it was during this study that I began to look into Judaism. After further study I decided that was crap too and that this book was in no way to be taken seriously. Anyway, once I stopped worrying about whether I had the "right" religion it was as if a weight had been lifted. I no longer worried about going to hell and I felt better.