Why yes, yes of course I knew that was a real word... .... I bet you use that one to pick up chicks, don't you. ..... I'm going to tell all of my clients about the superior stiction of our balances. The real question is, how on earth did you manage to work that into a conversation with your buddy?

Marvin windows which are the most expensive come with a block and tackle which can handle alot of weight. block and tackle are more expensive for a company to stock and that is one of the main reasons companies opt to use constant force. that said, a constant force is still a good balance system.
by the way the block and tackle does not utilize " a string", its a composite cord similar to whats used in mountain climbing and parachutes.

I am amazed at the misinformation about this topic. I've been selling windows for 24 years and I'll give you my opinion. The block and tackle balance system is leaps and bounds, a much better system. First of all when tested, it doesn't fail until 24000 cycles. The constant force fails at 4500. Constant force is affected by temperature and debris and is much noisier. Plain and simple, look what is put in most cheap windows, and look what is put in premium windows. In all my years in the business, I have never seen a block and tackle system go bad. I've seen too many constant force go bad, to mention. I would assume most in here saying constant force is good, sell them. Block and tackle is hands down the best on the market.

As someone who works in the field installing these products everyday I'm more concerned with entire system that implements the type of balance system utilized. Well thought out engineering of the jamb extrusions and how it ties into the sill, married with quality hardware such as the balance shoes and pivot bars. Most of my premium vinyl products utilize a block and tackle system.

I will say this as I'm getting older and have some serious shoulder issues going on, I'm finding myself pulling sashes more often when setting windows alone and find the need to pull sashes from time to time on larger units. If an installer has to fight the balance system to fully seat the pivot bar and sash back into it's correct operating position, he's not going to love that particular window so much. The ones that I fight with the most always are constant force.

I can buy that... but that said, each has its pros and cons. While it is easier for me to pop a sash in and out at a service call with a B&T system, I get far more service calls when clients tilt and clean their open shoe B&T windows at the exact 90* angle that they were advised not to, . CF balances are indeed louder, however most often I hear more noise generated from weatherstripping to sash friction than the balance system itself... So back to my original contention: both are solid with negligible pros and cons (unless of course you need to hit the gym like DM )... And to for the sake of full disclosure, my primary AND secondary offerings use B&T, while my third and fourth product offerings are CF.

I'm not sure how many will agree with me, however from my experiences your higher end windows will use a constant force balance system and lower end windows will use the block and tackle. Yes I know that is not always the case, but generally speaking.

+1. While I stand by my statements that there are nothing more than minor pros and cons to each, I believe that the opposite is true (B&T in the higher end models)... Perhaps the different point of view is due to the regional difference. In a milder climate like CA, you really don't have many of the higher-end offerings available.

HomeSealed wrote:+1. While I stand by my statements that there are nothing more than minor pros and cons to each, I believe that the opposite is true (B&T in the higher end models)... Perhaps the different point of view is due to the regional difference. In a milder climate like CA, you really don't have many of the higher-end offerings available.

I guess that would be because being regional we both experience different Manufactures. That being said doesn't mean that the West Coast does not have high end Windows as most Manufactures cater to the needs in their Region. My experience with window manufactures from back east that have shipped to California were very low end windows. i.e. Great Lakes/PlyGem, Jeld Wen , Champion just to name a few that we have seen out here.

I would not call California's Climate Mild, yes some areas are mild, however we see Temps. ranging from the low teens ( not cold in comparison to you folks) to 119* not mild when it comes to California Heat.

I would like to see Okna and Sunrise on the West Coast as they both build a very good window from what I have researched.

To my knowledge, the Plygem offering on the west coast is not the Great Lakes product. Please do correct me if I am wrong on that.
Regarding my comment on " higher end offerings" I was referring to the window lines that have excellent thermal and structural ratings. In the NE and MW, we have accessibility to multiple lines such as the aforementioned HiMark, okna, and sunrise with AI ratings under .05 and excellent u values to match (.25 -.27 in double pane)$... I'm unfamiliar with any such options out west, so please add input if there are-- I'd be happy to recommend such a product. To my knowledge, the best options out there are those with middling performance such as simonton and Milgard.

Well, Well boys! I just spent the last half hour laughing my ass off at this thread. Homesealed I love the way you work the room! Very stern and hardcore. I totally agree with you though. Both systems have there places in the industry. Nothing worse than cleaning debris out of a constant force spring. It just cakes in there. The only dislike I have is there is no adjustment if one side is lifting harder than the other. We've all seen it. I've moved one up and one down to equalize the tension.
Block and tackle are the best hands down. Easily adjustable to even out any improper tension. I can replace them with great ease. Much quieter than anything else. My only complaint is that damn cord always gets in the way of my fastener at least one time per unit. My screw just sucks it right in the hole.

In the long run they work! I hate the spiral balances. Only good for throwing at one of my guys not working or on his phone. But no matter which one we use they all have their place in the industry.

Now all you guys stop beating each other up on such a lame thing. We can talk Spacers!!