I am going to have to agree with Pegasus. Methinks perhaps those who bemoan the Osweiller pick are really spurned Tebow lovers. Get a clue. Osweiller is no phenom from Slippery Rock State. The PAC-12 isn't exactly Division 1A. Sure the kid is raw. Even Elway wasn't stellar his first couple of years. Obviously, Manning is no three year guarantee. Injuries happen to QBs in the NFL. Just ask Kansas City, New England, Indianapolis, and Pittsburg. Given the reality that Tebow is gone and there isn't going to be second coming of him, the Osweiller pick makes all the sense in the world. Maybe he could have been gotten farther down the draft. I don't know and no else does either. Point being we got a pretty good candidate to be an elite QB in the NFL. Everyone seemed to agree before the draft we needed a QB. Well we got one. And don't give me the hype about we should have kept Tebow. While you are dissing our defense, I seem to remember that our defense kept us in most of those games and Prater's leg had something to do with a number of those wins. I get a little tired of the Negative Nellies on these boards who seem to holler "the sky is falling" at every turn. Go Broncos!!!!

jmbcheeseburger wrote:There is no defending McDisaster. In 09, he had two first round picks (essentially three with Alphonso Smith) and the team does not have a lot to show. Same for the rest of the lame draft. This is all on McDisaster. Sure, at times, Ayers and Moreno showed a pulse, but not enough to justify first round picks. Although I think Ayers could survive for one more year by getting to play on a line with Doom and Miller. Moreno won't be here past this year, if that.

Shanahan(drafts of 2000-2003), Reeves(1988) and Red Miller(just about all his picks) made plenty of mistakes but McDisaster was worse.

Now, the author suggests that Ayers and Wolfe play the same position, and that is not what we have been led to believe, which is that Wolfe will line up at DT. It may be that the DE/DT they picked in round 5 will be Ayers's replacement.

Ayers did very well playing DT on passing downs late last season and the combination of he and Wolfe on the inside with Von and Doom on the outside has the potential to be a very good four-man rush.What I've heard is that Ayers is expected to play a lot more DT in general next season. Apparently Fox and DelRio love his quickness and ability to press the pocket from the DT position, and they also think he holds the point of attack very well inside.

He thinks he's a little bit of a project, but he also he thinks he has a significant upside. The first two tapes he watched were Boise (they played them twice last year). They were not good tapes for him. He said NFL scouts urged him to watch more which he did and despite the fact he only started 15 games, he can see the skill set. Big arm, maybe the best arm in the draft this year. He can drive it down the field, and what several quarterback coaches told him is that when you put him up on the board, he is way beyond his years in football IQ. He really understands the game.

kenplant2007 wrote:what a load of junk...McDaniels was forced to draft those players to correct the bad drafts of Mike Shanahan...or has everyone forgotten the year he drafted 4 defensive backs that were all a bust. Or where's the statement that EFX had to sign 2 TE in FA to correct their bad draft last year.

For a team searching for impact players, they did nothing but take projects.

Your argument stating McDaniels was forced to correct the bad drafts of Shanahan doesn't hold a lot of weight.

McDaniels inherited the #2 offense in the NFL, led by young and talented players at key positions all in their third year or less: Cutler, Marshall, Clady, Scheffler, Kuper, Harris, Royal, and Hillis. There were no draft mistakes to correct on offense.

On defense, the Broncos had 3 players to build around: Bailey, D.J. Williams, and Dumervil, but there were significant holes on that side of the ball McDaniels needed to address.

The 2006 Shanahan draft was very strong: Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Dumervil and Kuper. Cutler made the pro-bowl in his third year and broke the franchise record for passing yards in a season. Marshall was already an elite receiver and put up huge numbers in Denver. Scheffler was a receiving threat at the TE position and caught 89 passes total in his second and third years and 8 touchdowns. Dumervil had 26 sacks his first 3 years and had 17 more his first year under McDaniels. Kuper has proven to be a very solid NFL guard.

The 2007 draft wasn't good, although Harris played well early in his career. Moss was a clear bust. At the same time, all 4 players drafted were still playing in the NFL last year: Moss, Crowder, Harris, Marcus Thomas.

2008 was also a good draft: draft: Clady is a pro-bowl quality left tackle and was even selected all-pro in his career. Royal put up big numbers his rookie year. Lichtensteiger has been a starter for the Redskins when healthy. Torain has struggled with health issues, but did put up quality numbers for Washington in 2010. Spencer Larsen was a starter at full back for the Broncos and played in 50 games. Josh Barrett played in 20 games for the Broncos and started 4 for the Patriots last year. Peyton Hillis had a big year in 2010 for the Browns.

All McDaniels needed to do was to focus on defense and add a few small pieces on offense to build a consistent long-term winner in Denver. Instead, he completely blew up the offense starting with the trade of Cutler and made one mistake after the next in the 2009 draft.

It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well.

funninaround wrote:i think this is going to turn out to be a better draft than FEX is getting credit for. granted, it takes a few years to fully evaluate a draft, but, the only question mark in my mind is the CB who missed his senior season with knee surgeries. that always scares me. i like osweiler, and think he can develop behind manning with time. i love wolfe and hillman. they definitely got help in areas of need. this team is more ready than people think. i can't wait for the season to start!

And see, I think this is a good way to look at things. I've watched the NFL in general since about 1968, and as a Broncos fanatic growing up in Phoenix since 1972, my junior year of high school. Early on it was in the Phoenix Gazette that you would find draft coverage, and I think at that time there were 12 (or more) rounds. Eventually, the news outlets, and those dedicated to just mostly sports (Sport Illustrated, Sporting News, ESPN, etc) did a much better job of talking about the draft predictions, the picks, the outcomes, and other things. The internet has caused two things to happen IMO; 1) an unbelievable amount of data and opinion is available, and it travels with lightning speed to all points.

Some person talks about this guy being an issue, and everything says he's an issue. Another guy says he's moving up and awesome, and everyone says he's moving up and awesome. In that same time it has become all to common for lots of the sports writers, analysts, and fans in general to proclaim someone a boom or a bust, both before, during, and after the draft. And when contrasted with reality over the next two to three years what we see is that it's easy for those people to shrink from their comments, and even when called on how wrong they were, they shrug and say something like "Nobody wins them all" - a cheap out considering some of the horrific comments, at times bordering on character assassination, that were wildly spewed without future accountability.

If any group of people should take a more patient and understanding perspective, given some horrendous draft crap-shoots over the past 10 or 15 years, it's Broncos fans. Let's not shoot these guys or run them out on rails before they even hit the practice field. We're supposed to be optimistic and hopeful. At the very least, we're supposed to be fair and reasonable. There's been enough negativity, anger, name-calling, and outright hatred since last Thursday (and before). Those that want to vent and stay negative, how about they are allowed their opinion without response? They won't have their minds changed anyway, so spare your time - it's too valuable for any of us to waste.

Good post Funnin - Training camp can't get here soon enough.

*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+If you don't know your rights, you don't have any rights. Demand your elected officials support the US Constitution.*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+

thinkingahead wrote:The guy the Bronco's or Elway coveted in this draft was Osweiler. All the trades early was to get into a position to get Osweiler in the position that made sense.

So the success in the 2012 draft depends on Osweiler, not Wolf, Hillman or the rest.

Heard an interesting comparison yesterday, relating to Tebow versus Osweiler. Tebow needs to play to improve. Osweiler needs to learn before he can play. Osweiler plays shorter then his height, isn't very accurate, and has poor feet. And we were told Tebow was a project and couldn't play quarter back when McDaniels drafted him.

Watched the entire video and all I can say is its a good thing ol' Osweiler is tight with Jack Elway.

I'm really not high on that pick at all... yet.

We are in a position where we needed more impact players, and that was the round to get them. They drafted a guy they are expecting to hold a clip board from anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think they moved at least a year too early for a long-term project that early in the draft.

The only real positive I can get out of that one, is that there is no pressure to force Osweiller on the field right now. There is no hype or hooplah, there is no Kyle Orton fatigue from a fanbase pressuring the team to put in the young QB before he was ever really ready to be a passer in this league. He can quietly develop without a camera crew digging into every aspect of his life. I really think all that did a lot more harm to that punt protector in New York than help.

Hope it pays off. I definately would have preferred that project be delayed for a year and drafted someone who could help sooner. Realistically, we have a three year window to wrok with here.

It was decent, filled needs and got guys with high motors and preparing for the future at QB. Wolfe and Hillman will probably contribute right away, Trevathan will more than likely find the field as well on special teams some different set, I like it when they call a guy a tackeling machine. A guy who has 287 tackles over 2 years sounds like he might be able to contribute. Fox and Rio are well known for being good with LB's so they had to like him overall. Blake will be there to learn and might actually push J.D., you would think a guy who squat over 600 pounds would be able to hold stout in the middle.

Looks like the Broncos picked up a Saftey as well who could contribute. All in all, the bottom line, we'll just have to wait until they start, they got some players though, the Broncos are know picking their system guys, will be interesting to see what comes of it.

Before people jump on the Broncos' draft picks, they need to keep in mind that these guys haven't played a down of pro football yet. I wasn't thrilled with FEX's decision to trade down so far and get relatively little in return, but time will tell if they made quality picks or not.

If Wolfe has the same success pushing the pocket that he did in college, Denver will have filled a HUGE need that has been present for years. I pointed out after Manning came on the Denver essentially had to draft a QB this year, because the odds that Manning makes the whole 5 years of his contract are pretty slim, and his neck issues are always going to be a concern. So I'm not surprised they drafted Osweiller at all--the question is whether he becomes Dan Fouts or Dan McGwire down the road. I thought Cousins actually had a more polished game, but he's going to be stuck in QB limbo with the Shanahans, so hopefully Osweiller is ready to step in once Manning can't go. Hillman was probably drafted as a hedge on Moreno, and ideally will play the role of an Eric Metcalf-type short-yardage reciever out of the backfield. If he's as fast as Woodrow says he is, then he will probably be used quite a bit in the return game as well.

Those three will have to work out for the draft to be considered a success. If Denver gets contributions from any the rest of the picks over the next 3-5 years, that will be gravy.

"People usually get what they want, and if they are disappointed in what they end up with, it is usually because they were not careful about what they asked for."

He thinks he's a little bit of a project, but he also he thinks he has a significant upside. The first two tapes he watched were Boise (they played them twice last year). They were not good tapes for him. He said NFL scouts urged him to watch more which he did and despite the fact he only started 15 games, he can see the skill set. Big arm, maybe the best arm in the draft this year. He can drive it down the field, and what several quarterback coaches told him is that when you put him up on the board, he is way beyond his years in football IQ. He really understands the game.

Great work KZ... Brock may be a "project" but he's got some skills and obvious natural abilities. I hope he can develop into a long-term answer at QB...

Your later post of Hillman YouTube highlights was a fun view. The guy is a bit of a shrimp... but he's a jumbo shrimp with great vision, speed and a nose for the endzone. Hope he can hold up against the size and speed of the NFL.

thinkingahead wrote:The guy the Bronco's or Elway coveted in this draft was Osweiler. All the trades early was to get into a position to get Osweiler in the position that made sense.

So the success in the 2012 draft depends on Osweiler, not Wolf, Hillman or the rest.

Heard an interesting comparison yesterday, relating to Tebow versus Osweiler. Tebow needs to play to improve. Osweiler needs to learn before he can play. Osweiler plays shorter then his height, isn't very accurate, and has poor feet. And we were told Tebow was a project and couldn't play quarter back when McDaniels drafted him.

Watched the entire video and all I can say is its a good thing ol' Osweiler is tight with Jack Elway.

I'm really not high on that pick at all... yet.

We are in a position where we needed more impact players, and that was the round to get them. They drafted a guy they are expecting to hold a clip board from anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think they moved at least a year too early for a long-term project that early in the draft.

The only real positive I can get out of that one, is that there is no pressure to force Osweiller on the field right now. There is no hype or hooplah, there is no Kyle Orton fatigue from a fanbase pressuring the team to put in the young QB before he was ever really ready to be a passer in this league. He can quietly develop without a camera crew digging into every aspect of his life. I really think all that did a lot more harm to that punt protector in New York than help.

Hope it pays off. I definately would have preferred that project be delayed for a year and drafted someone who could help sooner. Realistically, we have a three year window to wrok with here.

You hope there is. God forbid something happens to Manning and there will be pressure to put him on the field. We'll be right back to Jake vs Jay or Orton vs Tebow, except it will be Hanie vs The Power Forward (I'd take ANY ONE of the previous 4 over the backups Elway's assembled behind Manning--even Orton). It'll be a guy who throws 3x as many INTs as TDs vs a guy who doesn't know how to play QB. The Osweiler pick is as egomaniacal as when McDebacle traded BMarsh, drafted DT, and said he drafted DT because "he reminds me of Brandon Marshall."

I was watching a little youtube of Gruden's QB Camp w/Osweiler. It was funny to hear him talk about his lack of experience but he has "leadership" and "toughness" and a "will to win." Hmmmm. I thought we wanted QBs here with TANGIBLE QB qualities, not poor throwing motions and "intangibles?"

Either way its Elway's baby now, there's no denying that. I hope for Elway's sake Manning can make up for the relative lack of talent on defense.

2011: Den loses road playoff game to NE by 35. Most "fans" blame QB despite Brady's 300+ yds and 6TDs. 2013: Den loses SB on neutral turf by 35 and most "fans" blame everyone BUT the QB who committed 3 TOs including a Pick-6.

Assuming Moreno, Ayers and Walton will all be replaced with 2012 draft picks, that leaves only 3 of 19 McDaniels' picks who will be starting for the Broncos.

Of the three remaining, it's only a matter of time before they are replaced. Thomas and Decker wouldn't be the first or second options at WR on any of the other 31 NFL teams. Beadles has anchored an offensive line that has annually fallen in the top three in most sacks given up.

The most egregious of the McDaniels picks was Tim Tebow in the first round. The former QB is now a "Punt Protector" for the Jets.

Last edited by broncovino on April 30th, 2012, 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

300Paul wrote:It was decent, filled needs and got guys with high motors and preparing for the future at QB. Wolfe and Hillman will probably contribute right away, Trevathan will more than likely find the field as well on special teams some different set, I like it when they call a guy a tackeling machine. A guy who has 287 tackles over 2 years sounds like he might be able to contribute. Fox and Rio are well known for being good with LB's so they had to like him overall. Blake will be there to learn and might actually push J.D., you would think a guy who squat over 600 pounds would be able to hold stout in the middle.

Looks like the Broncos picked up a Saftey as well who could contribute. All in all, the bottom line, we'll just have to wait until they start, they got some players though, the Broncos are know picking their system guys, will be interesting to see what comes of it.

I think that's the problem many have with this draft, it was just ok.

They didn't draft an immediate impact player (Osweiler may be great but we have to wait 3-5 years to find out).

They did not take BPA no matter what spin they want to put on it and they drafted for need even though Elway told us that's not how you should draft.

Basically Elway went against everything he claimed they would do and ended up with what looks to be a very average draft as a result.

Oh sure people can claim they took BPA based on their board but that's nothing than spin. We may not work in the NFL be we can tell when there is someone with clearly more talent sitting there when they took someone else.

They reached, they took damaged goods and left better talent on the board.

Granted, until this plays out we can make a final judgement but this is how many see it as of now.

They did address their needs but as I said they did so by going against the philosophy of taking BPA.

From the initial look at the draft the appearance is they took nothing more than situational players and depth.

I do see some quality in the UDFA's. Taking that into account as well as the off season as a whole I think Denver did fairly well improving the team.

thinkingahead wrote:The guy the Bronco's or Elway coveted in this draft was Osweiler. All the trades early was to get into a position to get Osweiler in the position that made sense.

So the success in the 2012 draft depends on Osweiler, not Wolf, Hillman or the rest.

Heard an interesting comparison yesterday, relating to Tebow versus Osweiler. Tebow needs to play to improve. Osweiler needs to learn before he can play. Osweiler plays shorter then his height, isn't very accurate, and has poor feet. And we were told Tebow was a project and couldn't play quarter back when McDaniels drafted him.

Watched the entire video and all I can say is its a good thing ol' Osweiler is tight with Jack Elway.

I'm really not high on that pick at all... yet.

We are in a position where we needed more impact players, and that was the round to get them. They drafted a guy they are expecting to hold a clip board from anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think they moved at least a year too early for a long-term project that early in the draft.

The only real positive I can get out of that one, is that there is no pressure to force Osweiller on the field right now. There is no hype or hooplah, there is no Kyle Orton fatigue from a fanbase pressuring the team to put in the young QB before he was ever really ready to be a passer in this league. He can quietly develop without a camera crew digging into every aspect of his life. I really think all that did a lot more harm to that punt protector in New York than help.

Hope it pays off. I definately would have preferred that project be delayed for a year and drafted someone who could help sooner. Realistically, we have a three year window to wrok with here.

You hope there is. God forbid something happens to Manning and there will be pressure to put him on the field. We'll be right back to Jake vs Jay or Orton vs Tebow, except it will be Hanie vs The Power Forward (I'd take ANY ONE of the previous 4 over the backups Elway's assembled behind Manning--even Orton). It'll be a guy who throws 3x as many INTs as TDs vs a guy who doesn't know how to play QB. The Osweiler pick is as egomaniacal as when McDebacle traded BMarsh, drafted DT, and said he drafted DT because "he reminds me of Brandon Marshall."

I was watching a little youtube of Gruden's QB Camp w/Osweiler. It was funny to hear him talk about his lack of experience but he has "leadership" and "toughness" and a "will to win." Hmmmm. I thought we wanted QBs here with TANGIBLE QB qualities, not poor throwing motions and "intangibles?"

Either way its Elway's baby now, there's no denying that. I hope for Elway's sake Manning can make up for the relative lack of talent on defense.

I think you're being way to hard on Osweiler. He is in no way, shape or form as poor in QB skills as the last guy was.

He has a better arm, does go through progressions as well as reading defenses and having to make complicated decisions. If you had watched the entire Gruden program you would see he has the intelligence to play the game.

Yes he is a bit raw but his mechanical flaw is he was a bit sidearm but his release is quick.

I don't know if he will be great but he is farther ahead in his abilities than the last guy was

Besides, he is going to sit for a few years anyway so I don't see this as a big issue.

The only real argument I could see is the fact they took a guy who is going to sit for the next 3-5 years vs. taking a guy who could contribute now.

So while I understand people see different things when they look at players I strongly disagree with your view of his skills as a QB.

BroncoCrusader wrote:I was watching a little youtube of Gruden's QB Camp w/Osweiler. It was funny to hear him talk about his lack of experience but he has "leadership" and "toughness" and a "will to win." Hmmmm. I thought we wanted QBs here with TANGIBLE QB qualities, not poor throwing motions and "intangibles?"

I don't care so much about the throwing motion as long as he can actually hit the ocean with a rock, unlike what's his name. That's the way it was for me with that other guy. He's off to a decent start if he can even do that, but that's my expectation of "projects." In the end, I'll be looking for that over some mysterious power of "will to win."

I wasn't blown away by the Hanie signing either, but we ARE talking about guys the team expects to he holding a clip-board. People seem to act as if Manning getting injured is a pretty good bet. I'm disagreeing with that notion. Most of the doctors that spoke out about his injury say his risk is no better or worse than anyone else. We're definately screwed if he does go down... but 90% of the league could say the same thing about their starter. If the Giants, Green Bay, New Orleans, New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Atlanta, Philly, (to name a few off the top of my head) lost their QBs today, the odds makers would pretty much have them written off as very long odds for Superbowl. We weren't going to get an all-pro as a backup, and I obviously think less of the 3 guys we had on the roster than you do. I see little difference between Hanie and Osweiller from those guys. Yeah, one of them didn't throw as many interceptions, but throwing passes in the dirt and punting all the time KILLED us down the stretch.

None of us (including the draft pundits) know how all the draft picks are going to turn out and if they will realize their potential. Only time will tell.

I have two issues with the Broncos draft (and that is nothing to do with Wolfe or Hillman being reaches).

1. In my opinion (and in the opinion of a number of draft experts), Elway and the broncos did not get comparable value in all their draft day trades. They gave up more value than what they got back in return from NE, Tampa and even cleveland (with the Hillman pick).

2. Osweiller pick does not make any sense. Osweiller may turn out to be a great QB and may have all the potential. But in the most optimistic scenario, Manning is going to be the QB for the next 3 or 4 years. How can you justify spending a 2nd round draft pick on a QB who is not going to see the field in a regular season game in 3 or 4 years. It is very likely that Osweiller will play out his rookie contract without taking any snaps in a regular season game. And then Broncos have to make a decision on whether to extend his contract without seeing him actually play in a regular season game.

If Manning gets hurt for 2 or 3 games (short term), then Hanie is the better option (as he has atleast some experience starting in the NFL).

If Manning gets hurt for longer term (half a season or more), then the season is a disaster anyway as the Broncos have so much invested in Manning. This is the only way Osweiller sees the field (Manning being hurt for half a season or more and Hanie fails). So the best chance for your 2nd round pick playing is for your franchise QB to get seriously hurt. That is why a 2nd round pick does not make sense.

You pick a backup QB in round 4 or lower (and hope he develops). If Manning gets hurt, Denver situation is going to be similar to Indy and we can land the top QB in future drafts.

I don't make a habit of reposting on multiple articles but this is from USA Today, which ranked the Broncos' draft as WORST among the 32 teams:

"32. Denver Broncos: They moved out of the first round and seemingly added little immediate help, odd since it seems like they are in win-now mode after the arrival of 36-year-old QB Peyton Manning. Perhaps they're right about their first choice (DT Derek Wolfe early in Round 2), but they bypassed multiple chances to get more highly regarded run stuffers. Getting QB Brock Osweiler later in the round was also a bit of head scratcher. Our favorite pick was C Philip Blake in Round 4."

The focus doesn't appear to have been on defense...nor was it on offense...in fact, there appears to be NO focus, just incompetence....