To me, the rudeness is to bring a dish and then announce that only certain people can eat it. That would make me want to take some all the more!

If a host told me this - or a guest confronted me about food choices- I'd simply leave. I don't need to be at a place where I am not welcome, and having two tiers of hospitality means that one group is at the very least more welcome than the other.

You are saying omnivores don't deserve to get what they prefer and should suffer for their choice to not be picky. That is not fair or polite or considerate of omnivores, it just isn't. Not being picky should be rewarded not punished. Why should Bob not get what he prefers? Why should Bob always have to suck it up and take the least desirable thing simply because Ann refuses to compromise and occasionally eat meat like Bob does even though Bob does not prefer meat? If Bob chooses to defer to Ann that's him being extra nice and he should be thanked and recognized, but he should not be forced to take the less desirable item simply because Ann refuses to budge.

I agree with your point that the host would be the inconsiderate one, but totally disagree that vegetarianism = being picky. I'm vegetarian because I cannot bear to eat meat and I believe it's wrong for *me* to eat meat. I've been vegetarian for 20+ years now, even though dining out would be far easier if I could bring myself to eat meat or fish, but I can't violate my principles. Would you claim a Hindu was being picky for refusing to eat beef or a Muslim was for refusing to eat non-Halal meat?

I don't expect anyone else to eat veggie (or non-veggie) because of my principles. The host needs to provide enough veggie food so those who can make a choice have the opportunity to do so.

Yes. You can pick and choose what you eat based on anything. Ethics, religion, the weather, your outfit, your upbringing, etc, but so long as its a choice (as opposed to say an allergy or reaction to illness) it is something you are picking, and therefore falls under picky eating IMO. And I consider my own self-imposed, ethics and health-based eating habits to be picky as well.

You are saying omnivores don't deserve to get what they prefer and should suffer for their choice to not be picky. That is not fair or polite or considerate of omnivores, it just isn't. Not being picky should be rewarded not punished. Why should Bob not get what he prefers? Why should Bob always have to suck it up and take the least desirable thing simply because Ann refuses to compromise and occasionally eat meat like Bob does even though Bob does not prefer meat? If Bob chooses to defer to Ann that's him being extra nice and he should be thanked and recognized, but he should not be forced to take the less desirable item simply because Ann refuses to budge.

I agree with your point that the host would be the inconsiderate one, but totally disagree that vegetarianism = being picky. I'm vegetarian because I cannot bear to eat meat and I believe it's wrong for *me* to eat meat. I've been vegetarian for 20+ years now, even though dining out would be far easier if I could bring myself to eat meat or fish, but I can't violate my principles. Would you claim a Hindu was being picky for refusing to eat beef or a Muslim was for refusing to eat non-Halal meat?

I don't expect anyone else to eat veggie (or non-veggie) because of my principles. The host needs to provide enough veggie food so those who can make a choice have the opportunity to do so.

Yes. You can pick and choose what you eat based on anything. Ethics, religion, the weather, your outfit, your upbringing, etc, but so long as its a choice (as opposed to say an allergy or reaction to illness) it is something you are picking, and therefore falls under picky eating IMO. And I consider my own self-imposed, ethics and health-based eating habits to be picky as well.

However, in an ideal, polite society, everyone at the party (whether they know about the non-beefeaters or not) would look at the big plate of beef dogs and the small plate of chicken dogs and make the logical, thoughtful conclusion that those chicken dogs are probably for someone specific. In their uncertainty, perfectly polite folks would ask.

How does anyone know who those specific people are though? If someone prefers to not eat beef aren't they part of that specific group? How are they to know that their preference (whether its a general preference or just what they prefer at that moment) wasn't the one one being catered too?

Let's pretend that we're not talking about tofu. Let's pretend that we're talking about halal or kosher chicken dogs in a room where there are 3 people who cannot eat beef for religious reasons. There is a big plate of beef hotdogs and a small plate of 6 chicken hotdogs. There are enough for 2 hotdogs for everyone. The beef-eaters choose the chicken dogs because they are super yummy. This leaves one hotdog each for the 3 people who abstain from beef for religious reasons.

Two of the beefeaters who took a chicken dog know that there are people who choose to abstain from beef in attendance. One of the beefeaters does not know.

The beefeaters who know about the non-beefeaters may nto be outright rude, but they are definitely being extremely inconsiderate. The one who does NOT know why there are chicken dogs is being neither rude nor inconsiderate.

It was a long post, and that part was probably easily lost in the wall of words - I tend to ramble sometimes.

So if you don't know that there are vegetarians present and you eat the yummy vegetarian dish because it's yummy, you're neither rude nor inconsiderate. If you notice that it is a specifically vegetarian main dish and there is less of that main dish than of the other main dishes, AND it's a main dish that's comparable to the non-veggie main dishes (ie veggie dogs or veggie burgers when there are loads more regular dogs and burgers), it would be more considerate to stop and thing about whether this is meant for someone specific, and maybe do a quick check.

But if you really don't know or didn't realize that any of your friends are vegetarian (lots of us like to keep it low key to avoid the preachy feeling that comes with explaining our choice and avoid coming off as snobby or 'picky' as you earlier mentioned), if you really thought this was just something different that the host/ess has offered, and/or if it really didn't occur to you that this might be a main dish for a specific small group, you're neither rude nor inconsiderate.

It seemed to me in the original post that the person who took the veggie option did know. That may not be rude, but it is pretty inconsiderate. It's a subtle difference.

Also, it seems likely to me that at a party of 20-30 guests, most people are going to know each other. I know I can easily pack my house full of 30 people who all know each other to some degree or another.

Even if someone knows,,,it's not rude or inconsiderate...you don't know why they are taking it. There could be any number of reasons, if vegetarians don't want to be judged for their choices, they need not to judge others, even if the other's choices is inconvenient for someone, IMHO.

If I am making food that is for someone with a dietary restriction, I either make enough for everyone to share or I serve it specifically to them. Putting it out as a self serve or just identifying it as something that would satisfy that restriction doesn't mean others won't want to eat it or recognize that they aren't meant to eat it.

We had a large Indian buffet for my sister's graduation/family reunion and exactly one family out of the 150 guests was vegetarian. We didn't put out one small tray of vegetable biryani amongst the large chafing dishes of meat-based biryani and chicken and roti. We took that tray directly to their table for them exclusively. No way would I expect the 147 meat-eating people to instinctively realize that this small tray on the buffet line was only for those who couldn't eat meat rather than whoever felt like trying vegetable biryani.

Just this weekend, I went to a picnic that was sponsored by the adoption agency that I used to adopt my daughter. It is hosted by the agency. They supply the hot dogs/hamburgers, buns, condiments. Everything else is provided potluck.

I snagged a veggie burger. I'm NOT vegetarian but dieting. I have no idea if anyone else there was a vegetarian. I literally didn't know anyone there except my daughter.

I don't know if I was rude but there weren't very many of the veggie burgers sitting out.

I, too, don't get hung up on WHY somebody won't/can't eat the main dish, which is why I wouldn't confront somebody for taking a veggie burger instead of a beef burger. Maybe they are Hindu, maybe they don't/can't eat red meat, maybe they are veggie, maybe they only eat organic, whatever. If they wouldn't/couldn't eat the beef burgers provided, then absolutely they should take a veggie burger.

I just think that if somebody would eat the beef but just isn't choosing it today, then it's more considerate of them to hang back a little before they take a veggie burger.

You are saying omnivores don't deserve to get what they prefer and should suffer for their choice to not be picky. That is not fair or polite or considerate of omnivores, it just isn't. Not being picky should be rewarded not punished. Why should Bob not get what he prefers? Why should Bob always have to suck it up and take the least desirable thing simply because Ann refuses to compromise and occasionally eat meat like Bob does even though Bob does not prefer meat? If Bob chooses to defer to Ann that's him being extra nice and he should be thanked and recognized, but he should not be forced to take the less desirable item simply because Ann refuses to budge.

I agree with your point that the host would be the inconsiderate one, but totally disagree that vegetarianism = being picky. I'm vegetarian because I cannot bear to eat meat and I believe it's wrong for *me* to eat meat. I've been vegetarian for 20+ years now, even though dining out would be far easier if I could bring myself to eat meat or fish, but I can't violate my principles. Would you claim a Hindu was being picky for refusing to eat beef or a Muslim was for refusing to eat non-Halal meat?

I don't expect anyone else to eat veggie (or non-veggie) because of my principles. The host needs to provide enough veggie food so those who can make a choice have the opportunity to do so.

Yes. You can pick and choose what you eat based on anything. Ethics, religion, the weather, your outfit, your upbringing, etc, but so long as its a choice (as opposed to say an allergy or reaction to illness) it is something you are picking, and therefore falls under picky eating IMO. And I consider my own self-imposed, ethics and health-based eating habits to be picky as well.

I don't think picking = picky. Picky means choosy or discerning, with the implication of rejecting lots of things based on superficial criteria (like Kraft cheese not being "sophisticated" enough for someone's tastes or something). "Picky" implies preferences outside the norm (like adults who don't eat any vegetables at all), and I would like to think that these days, vegetarianism, veganism, or not eating red meat for your health are not really outside the norm.It's really not that hard as a host to make your baseline "food 99% of guests can eat" including a veggie platter, a main dish without meat (pasta, mac and cheese, veggie skewers, quesadilla, etc.), and some rolls of bread. I like the idea of the "catering to the common denominator" approach others mentioned.

I think that given that all meat eaters can also eat vegetables, it's practical logistically to have a meatless main dish large enough for all guests, rather than have a meatfest with some veggie stuff as a concession. Exceptions if you are throwing a meat themed event like a pig roast or a dinner at a Brazilian bbq or something.

You are saying omnivores don't deserve to get what they prefer and should suffer for their choice to not be picky. That is not fair or polite or considerate of omnivores, it just isn't. Not being picky should be rewarded not punished. Why should Bob not get what he prefers? Why should Bob always have to suck it up and take the least desirable thing simply because Ann refuses to compromise and occasionally eat meat like Bob does even though Bob does not prefer meat? If Bob chooses to defer to Ann that's him being extra nice and he should be thanked and recognized, but he should not be forced to take the less desirable item simply because Ann refuses to budge.

I agree with your point that the host would be the inconsiderate one, but totally disagree that vegetarianism = being picky. I'm vegetarian because I cannot bear to eat meat and I believe it's wrong for *me* to eat meat. I've been vegetarian for 20+ years now, even though dining out would be far easier if I could bring myself to eat meat or fish, but I can't violate my principles. Would you claim a Hindu was being picky for refusing to eat beef or a Muslim was for refusing to eat non-Halal meat?

I don't expect anyone else to eat veggie (or non-veggie) because of my principles. The host needs to provide enough veggie food so those who can make a choice have the opportunity to do so.

Yes. You can pick and choose what you eat based on anything. Ethics, religion, the weather, your outfit, your upbringing, etc, but so long as its a choice (as opposed to say an allergy or reaction to illness) it is something you are picking, and therefore falls under picky eating IMO. And I consider my own self-imposed, ethics and health-based eating habits to be picky as well.

I don't think picking = picky. Picky means choosy or discerning, with the implication of rejecting lots of things based on superficial criteria (like Kraft cheese not being "sophisticated" enough for someone's tastes or something). "Picky" implies preferences outside the norm (like adults who don't eat any vegetables at all), and I would like to think that these days, vegetarianism, veganism, or not eating red meat for your health are not really outside the norm.It's really not that hard as a host to make your baseline "food 99% of guests can eat" including a veggie platter, a main dish without meat (pasta, mac and cheese, veggie skewers, quesadilla, etc.), and some rolls of bread. I like the idea of the "catering to the common denominator" approach others mentioned.

I think that given that all meat eaters can also eat vegetables, it's practical logistically to have a meatless main dish large enough for all guests, rather than have a meatfest with some veggie stuff as a concession. Exceptions if you are throwing a meat themed event like a pig roast or a dinner at a Brazilian bbq or something.

I do totally agree with your points about how everyone can eat meatless dishes and its best to take a "catering to the common denominator".

I just think if someone chooses to not eat an entire category of food, regardless of why they choose it, that is their choice and any consequences of that choice fall to them. That is what I mean by them being picky. I think there are plenty of very legitimate and good reasons to pick and choose among available food choices, but regardless of the why the fact still remains if you choose to limit yourself, that means you are the one who is limited in what you can take (and I count myself among those who make limiting food choices). People who do not choose to limit what they will eat should not have limitations* on what they eat placed upon them by people who choose otherwise.

*Aside from what I think we all agree on, such as not taking more then one serving until everyone has been through the line, etc.

I think it's entirely on the host to make sure they have enough vegetarian food, rather than the guests to decide how many vegetarian guests there may be, if there's enough food for the vegetarians, etc.

I'm a meat-eater who quite often prefers vegetarian options. At work meetings with boxed lunches I typically skip the veggie boxes and grab a meat box because I know the veggie options are very limited. (Somehow they never order enough veggie options!) However, at a party where there is a wide variety and amount of food, I would eat something that's vegetarian as part of my meal.

As a host, though, it's difficult to figure out how many "veggie" options you need. I quickly learned that if you offer grilled portabella mushrooms as an alternative to burgers or brats, half of the meat-eaters (at least, those in my circle), will take the mushroom over the meat. I try to plan so that I have enough veggie options for all of the vegetarians and about half of my non-vegetarians. (Of course, I'm also perfectly happy with tons of leftovers, so I don't mind if I have too much food.)

But I've heard others on this board say guests shouldn't use parties as a chance to sample new foods they don't know they like because of the risk of not eating it and having it go to waste. So I'm sure others will disagree with me since I think buffets I host are great opportunities for my guests to sample something new.

To me, a buffet type situation is the perfect time to sample something new. I can take a tiny bit of something and taste without having to order a whole dish (in a restaurant) or make a whole recipe (at home).

So with that in mind, it might have been nicer for the guy who wanted to try the veg sausage to just take a slice of a sausage instead of the whole thing.

But the idea that we should determine whether to take something off the buffet totally based on how much is in the plate strikes me as problematic. If I'm the 15th person in line how do I know if the small amount of a given dish is due to it being a restricted item (for vegetarians only) or due to it just being a popular item with the 14 people before me?

We have a couple of vegetarians in my office. When we ordered pizza, there would be one veggie and the rest would all have meat of some sort, some all meat, some meat and veggies. Drove me nuts that people would take the veggie and if the two vegetarians weren't near the front of the line, they wouldn't get at any.

We solved the problem by ordering two veggie pizzas and reducing the meat options by one.

See, I am not a vegetarian, but I do not like meat on pizza. Never have. Why should I have to take the pizza with meat that I do want? Am I being rude by taking what I like?

I agree. In my experience, plain pizzas are the most popular, period, even among meat eaters.

What people were telling the organizers is, "we prefer the nonmeat pizza." And the first time that things worked out that way, the organizers should have used that info to adjust the next order.

You are saying omnivores don't deserve to get what they prefer and should suffer for their choice to not be picky. That is not fair or polite or considerate of omnivores, it just isn't. Not being picky should be rewarded not punished. Why should Bob not get what he prefers? Why should Bob always have to suck it up and take the least desirable thing simply because Ann refuses to compromise and occasionally eat meat like Bob does even though Bob does not prefer meat? If Bob chooses to defer to Ann that's him being extra nice and he should be thanked and recognized, but he should not be forced to take the less desirable item simply because Ann refuses to budge.

I agree with your point that the host would be the inconsiderate one, but totally disagree that vegetarianism = being picky. I'm vegetarian because I cannot bear to eat meat and I believe it's wrong for *me* to eat meat. I've been vegetarian for 20+ years now, even though dining out would be far easier if I could bring myself to eat meat or fish, but I can't violate my principles. Would you claim a Hindu was being picky for refusing to eat beef or a Muslim was for refusing to eat non-Halal meat?

I don't expect anyone else to eat veggie (or non-veggie) because of my principles. The host needs to provide enough veggie food so those who can make a choice have the opportunity to do so.

Yes. You can pick and choose what you eat based on anything. Ethics, religion, the weather, your outfit, your upbringing, etc, but so long as its a choice (as opposed to say an allergy or reaction to illness) it is something you are picking, and therefore falls under picky eating IMO. And I consider my own self-imposed, ethics and health-based eating habits to be picky as well.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

i wonder if what WillyNilly is saying is that people who don't eat a lot of stuff because they don't like is should get the same respect as those who don't eat meat because they have taken a moral stance.

So it's not that "picky" = "bad."But that "picking" = "choosing" and "all food choices (i.e., all picks) " = "worthy of respect."