I'm going to slap the next person who apologizes here for having an opinion. Okay, I won't slap anyone, but I will fantasize about it though.

I have heard "the Goddess" referred to as a Whore or a Sacred Whore. I admit that such a reference used to make me uncomfortable even though I knew the common definition of whore did not come into play. The way Tresss explains it is very sensual and meaningful. I get it.

So to Tresss and Alyceavary... Please do not stop posting your opinions even though others do not agree with your terminology or opinions. You are valued here, at least by me. No one should be afraid of or back off from posting because others disagree with them.

Thanks for sticking up for me PG. It really means so much.

I love that article. I felt it was speaking my subconscious.. it was really touching to my soul. It is an important landmark in the journey of my soul. It is quite sensitive.Also I often use the root 'desire' to express whore, or the other way around. The important thing is the association. :-) I never use the derogatory meaning, even though I accept its existence.

Why! This thread started as a beautiful description of the night sky as it would tie in with the Spring Equinox. What happened to it? It turned into a definition of the word "whore". No matter how the word is used it is offensive when used in connection with my Goddess. And that is allKhara was trying to say. Why could you not allow her to express her opinion without making herfeel as though her opinion meant less than yours? Pet Goddess she knew what you were talkingabout, she is not stupid. The only thing she was angry with was the word "whore" used in connection with her Goddess. She was expressing her opinion. But you turned a discussion intosomething not worthy of this forum. And that dear is my opinion.

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Protect your 2nd amendment rights.

What do you seek?

Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are. Kurt Cobain

I was sticking up for all of us, tresss. I don't say a lot of what I would like to say as I know my opinions will not be well received and will result in a bunch of hellabaloo that isn't worth my time and is disruptive to those of us who desire to share with and to learn from others. So I don't always practice what I preach.

I've put in my time and fought my battles. I like to call it maturity, but there are those that may disagree.

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We are prone to judge success by the index of our salaries or the size of our automobiles, rather than by the quality of our service relationship to humanity. ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

Why! This thread started as a beautiful description of the night sky as it would tie in with the Spring Equinox. What happened to it? It turned into a definition of the word "whore". No matter how the word is used it is offensive when used in connection with my Goddess. And that is allKhara was trying to say. Why could you not allow her to express her opinion without making herfeel as though her opinion meant less than yours? Pet Goddess she knew what you were talkingabout, she is not stupid. The only thing she was angry with was the word "whore" used in connection with her Goddess. She was expressing her opinion. But you turned a discussion intosomething not worthy of this forum. And that dear is my opinion.

Everyone has a right to have an opinion and to be offended, but she was out for blood from the start. She was being unreasonable. Even when I tried to explain, she either ignored it or didn't even try to understand. I always try to be polite and have tact and keep an open mind. I expect something of this from others too. That is all. I'm not here to wage wars..

Guys...I am the most liberal and open person on the planet, but I can see where Khara is coming from. Look at it this way. Tresss...let's just say you and your mom have a running joke where she calls you a slut and you call her a whore. Between the two of you it's all good fun and nobody gets hurt. But say the two of you are out in public hollering this back and forth at each other...somebody's probably going to get offended. And to take this hypothetical situation further, if you saw Khara's mother, it's not going to go over well if you run up and say, "Hi, whore." While you may mean it as a joke, or even affectionately, it doesn't change the fact that you just called Khara's mother a whore, which to Khara is an insult. Now, nobody's saying that you don't have a special relationship with the goddess and that personally you can call her what you want. But keep in mind that generally, your goddess and my goddess and Khara's goddess are essentially one in the same, and most would wish you to speak of Her with a little more reverence in mixed company. Look, for example, my ex girlfriend and I had this rule about no PDA. Hey, neither of us were ashamed that we were lesbians, but most people, including our families, weren't as comfortable with it as we were. We always felt that just because we were comfortable with ourselves didn't give us the right to make others uncomfortable...if only out of the sake of politeness.

And please don't think I meant this as an attack on anyone...it's just me being the eternal counselor that I am.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 04:38:35 PM by behindstarryeyes »

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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -Margaret Mead

Again, someone more eloquent than I. I've tried REPEATEDLY in this thread and the other started by Tressss to explain that it is an offensive term, no matter HOW used. Or to me it is. We are all entitled to our opinions, and I wasn't attacking. I was simply saying that it was offensive to me. It's the same thing as a group of black friends calling each other the "N word" or having a white friend that says it as a term of endearment (***shudder***), but saying it in front of another black person that isn't in that clique is offensive and cause for a fight.

In some circles, it's not offensive.....others it is. Same as calling your (or my) Goddess a whore. I GET THE INTENT, but the wording a little lacking. Certain words are NOT appropriate around my 6 yr old, but fine when I'm with adults. Same here, that's well and good for you to say your Goddess reflects aspects of a whore and that's how you identify with her. But consider a teenager coming here and reading those words: "I define my Goddess as the virgin and the whore." And then that teenager goes to a Coven and repeats that because it resonated with them, or starts having unprotected sex with every guy she can find and rationalizes it by saying "I'm acting as the Goddess in her whore phase". Or worse yet, a young man sees your words and when he starts dating a witch, then proceeds to ask if she is a virgin or a whore because he ISN'T Wiccan or Pagan and doesn't understand the concept. You don't see a problem with ANY of this? That sounds like a problem to me on MANY levels.

AGAIN, I applaud you for exploring your faith and trying to put it in relate-able terms for yourself. But keep in mind, this is a PUBLIC forum accessible by ANYONE.

On a side note, I did NOT comment on the thread about blue, and have only briefly scanned through some of it. I do NOT have you confused with anyone else. I am asking for you to take a step aside and imagine how certain words may hurt others who have personal connections to the Goddess/God. My Goddess is Mother Nature/Demeter......yes, it OFFENDS ME to hear her referred to as a whore. Sorry. I won't change my opinion and I don't care if you won't change yours. I simply ask for you to understand how it affects others. You have Freedom of Speech as long as it doesn't interfere with my freedoms.

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So tell me not of avatars. Show me not your proof that yours is the true god. I grant you your beliefs without question and without judgment, but if you grant me what is in my heart, then such proof is irrelevant. ~Drizzt Do'Urden

Well first of all, I've never called myself a Pagan, and I am not Wiccan, or even a Witch. In fact, I don't call myself anything. I don't claim to be associated with any religion or tradition.

Then possibly you might be best advised to keep a civil tongue in your head when making "enquiries" which to more than one of us, on more than one occasion have sounded like not very thinly veiled slurs - almost always against the female power within Wicca and paganism.

All of my ideas about myself and God have come from me. All I claim is a direct relationship with my God. :-) And yes, I use 'God' interchangeably with 'Goddess', to mean the absolute. But don't take that the wrong way. I never impose my personal way of seeing on others. I understand and accept all the distinctions...Otherwise I couldn't have my own. ;-)

Quite the theologian then are you? Shaman-like almost...forging a path all your own. Don't let things like Kharas generational knowledge of and love for her practice and deities give you pause then. I'm almost sure she has nothing you'd think worthy of stopping to hear. You've made that abundantly clear.

Learning is a one way path for you is it - You opine and we are expected sit back, aghast at the brilliance and newshinyness of your insights into our ancient faiths?

Yeah well ermmm...not really feeling it as deeply as Pet Goddess obviously is. I don't think you'll be my guru any time soon.

If you remove yourself from your exclusively material/bodily ideas about Whores and Virgins, then you might discover a very broad spectrum of ideas and ethics behind those terms. For me, a (spiritual) whore is one who loves life in all its aspects, and sees beauty even in apparent ugliness. She desires everything. It is loosely a term for experience and lust for life. I'm not bothered what the dictionary says it means.The Virgin is the other side of the coin, offering stability and focus; will power and mental strength. She is the purity that enables one to experience life without being corrupted by it...without becoming materially attached.

They are never apart, and are two sides of the same coin. Just like you can't have black without white. :-)The Virgin and the Whore are the two polar aspects of the (Or my) Goddess. But as a united whole the Goddess is of course: Creator, Sustainer, Destroyer. :-)

And yet as most women will attest - so many people call one a whore as if that were a bad thing to be.

If you're going to start throwing around culturally loaded terms in ways which we have not been conditioned to hear them used, then possibly you need to make a short, pithy precursive kind of post explaining the complex nature of your revolutionary redefining of the lexis...'kay?

Just for the sake of clarity.**puzzled**I wonder if your failure to make any attempt at such a thing might be responsible for us reacting as if that's an emotive and indeed inflammatory word for some of us then?

Also, men can be virgins and whores both physically, mentally and spiritually. So bear that in mind if you've got your feminist glasses on.

Yes but they rarely have that epithet attached to them for it, no matter how much they put it about, do they? And if they do it's in an admiringly "you dirty dog" manwhore kind of manner - not a "you filthy bitch" cheap whore manner - as it so often is when applied to the female whether Goddess or daughter.

Also please note the bolded text in your quote - how dare you condescend to a woman who could buy and sell you in any debate on religious matters you'd care to engage with in her? And wtf are feminist glasses you snide little twat?

The Goddess is the ultimate player and lover; she can be associated with gender but personally I believe that she shouldn't be completely dragged down to human levels and judged on that basis. In my experience it just creates squabbles and conflicts. But I understand your misconceptions, and wanted to address them. :-)

If all you want to do is crap on to others about this religion you seem to be formulating and the minutae of what you believe, then please get a Lectern and do so. I'm sure any number of street corners need a preacher.

This here is a discussion forum however. For discussions. If we disagree with your premise or findd fault with your exposition we will say so.

If you have insulted us, howver inadvertently it might be well for a newer person to kind of back off a tad and say - hey - I'm sorry if that got your goat. Not go back on the attack from your perch of self admitted self righteous ignorance of lore and terminology - and start blowing off people who have every right to be treated with respect and listened to keenly because she truly is a learned elder of this community.

My Goddess is not about living a female or male lifestyle. She is about being her unfettered self.

I see you and she share that trait. I also see how it might work for an esp charismatic deity.

However it can be terribly unattractive in a jumped up mortal young 'un.

ETA: I bolded the text I was referring to when I said you and she share that trait. I re-read it andf relised it may have been taken to mean I thought you had no sex either male or female and I am aware how derogatory that may come across.

So I corrected the clumsy word choice I made in haste when excited about a post. And attempted to clarify my meaning.

As I still suggest you might have been best to do over the whole whore/virgin thing.

And now I've corrected that I shall bugger off.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:20:58 PM by Scorched Eartha »

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If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

The Edge there's no honest way to explain it as the only people who really know where it is have gone over.

Here I was, trying to make sense of a senseless issue. Trying to wrap my head around an issue of the gut. And me a mere MALE in this estrogen ocean.

I am going to split this thread and move the contentious part somewhere else. Where? Not sure yet. I MAY just dump it in the trash.

You all can believe what you want. You can worship what you want. You can call a cat a dog unfettered if you want.

But...the MOMENT it offends anyone...the MOMENT it becomes NON-PC, I reserve the right to dump it into the bin. No further warnings, no arguments, no NOTHING. We'll apply to the Internic for a url change to some combination of "NAACPNAMBLANWANWONORMLPUSILANIMOUSPCPABLUMQUAFFERS DOT COM" and be DONE with it.

just fior the record I'd have objected is someone had called Mary Magdalene a whore too. Or Jesus a Rent boy. It's not un PC - it's bloody disrespectful of the GUIDELINES that no one's path should be denigrated or disrespected.

The philosophy being espoused of"The Goddess to me a is a whore and I really don't give a ratswhatsit what that word means to the rest of you, especially if I suspect you of harbouring feminist principles on any level." seems a tad unguidelinesish to me. Offensively speaking.

But I s'pose we're expected to be used to that by now. I sure as hell know that subliminal messages are being sent which say repeatedly that it is when crap like this gets said to a senior member of the board and you come in here only to tell us all to calm it down.

So yeah I won't let the door hit me on the arse on the way out.

I'd just note that if young Tresss had any kind of a vocabulary at all he'd have realised that Carnal Goddess is a far better word to describe the fully realised female deity he seems to be clumsily reaching toward than Whore goddess anyway.

But I daren't suggest it, as my dark forbidden Suffragette side might show and upset his little apple cart - in much the same way that Khara's did.

And I must say congrats...it's the shortest comeback to a forum in history I reckon.

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If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

The Edge there's no honest way to explain it as the only people who really know where it is have gone over.

Ok, I am sick and fvcking tired of getting my a$$ handed to me because some of you seem to feel that it’s all well and fine that I teach fvcking classes and you come to me for information, spells, ritual advice, what candle colors to use, goddess I cannot tell you what all I’m asked regularly but that is all I am good for? Let me tell you now, I am allowed to have opinions. I am allowed to state those opinions the same as any other member of this site. If you get nasty with me, then by god I am going to get just as nasty back.

Now this whole bullshit started with a comment from me. It was my opinion as a Pagan.

Now you Tresss said this which in all honesty, coming out of the blue with no other reference than you, I found to be quite crappy…. HOWEVER, please note I did not attack you as a person, I questioned where your idea of the Goddess as a whore had come from....

Isn't Venus also the Morning Star, as well as the Evening Star..? I've seen it (At least I think it was Venus!) shining quite brightly just after sunset, and again just before sunrise. Morning would correlate more with the Virgin for me, while evening is for the Whore. I love how Venus has that double life.I'm still speculating though...It is early days for me exploring my path. Each day adds a small piece to the puzzle. :-)

The whole whore/virgin thing had ZERO to do with the discussion and you did not qualify your statements with any explanation. I then said this….

Jungian psychologist Nancy Qualls-Corbett describes the Holy Whore as "a woman, who, through ritual or psychological development, has come to know the spiritual side of her sexuality, her true Eroticism, and lives this out according to her individual circumstances." By this definition, a Sacred Prostitute uses sex as a means to God/dess and to enlightenment.

To which I responded to, not you Tresss, you little twit, but PG…… And again, MY OPINION…. See the I don’t agree with that part…. As this is a PAGAN board and not an altar for Ramtha, we do tend to base our conversations on Pagan information.

Yeah, I don't agree with that. It is no different than the Covenant of Nicaea making Mary Magdelene into a prostitute.

As well, last I heard Jung was a psychologist, not a Pagan. Psychology is not spirituality.

I can find zero references in any Pagan texts that reference the "whore" aspect of the Goddess.

I think there may be some confusion there.

With this you went into your tirade against me DIRECTLY. Until this point I had not addressed you directly in any way, however you CHOSE to direct your little “you’re so unenlightened and stupid” rant towards me. I responded. You got butthurt, your friend PG came on, yet again to get nasty with me by her own choice.

So I really want someone to explain to me once and for all why every time I state my opinion or thoughts my a$$ gets chewed by the select few who seem to think…

A.They make the decisions here on who can and cannot post their thoughts and opinions.

B.Why complete strangers to me are getting nasty when I never even engaged them in conversation.

Because if the only reason y’all want me here is as a fvcking reference guide to Wicca and Witchcraft then I won’t bother to attempt to interact with anyone out in the open any more and I'll just open my account up to receive emails and we can be done with the fvcking charade.

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"Tis a human trait to hate one you have wronged" - SenecaI am responsible for what I write and say. I am not responsible for what you read or understand.

I had not previously heard of Ramtha's School of Charlatanry Enlightenment and was therefore unaware that such spiritual luminaries as Linda Evans had been formative influences upon your inner developmental shit.

Sorray. We're a bit off the beaten track down here see. And the potential to reach cashed up and gullible marks limited by our relatively small population base. The RSE's bean counters probably figured out that the advertising dollars required to reach our market wouldn't really be a paying proposition in economies of scale terms.

But I need to thank you. I really have learned something new from this thread now. I can add one more quasi esoteric pack of crooks to my list of "New Age wankers to avoid like herpes" right?

btw: There's some whoring going on in that sect of yours all right Tress, but it's got nowt to do with our goddess and everything to do with your "Spiritual Guide"

NB: For the purposes of this post the words "Quasi esoteric new age wankers" have been re-defined by me to mean "erudite and spiritually rich gurus of great wisdom and good principle"...

I say this just in case any butt hurt resulted from someone interpreting them according to standard English-speaker/dictionary definitions.

Seems that's a strategy now de riguer ITT and I do so like to follow new trends. And as we all know that "whore" has already been satisfactorily re-defined ITT, my use of the adjectival form of that one ought to have upset no one at all, right?

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If you're going to be crazy, you have to get paid for it or else you're going to be locked up.

You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands.

The Edge there's no honest way to explain it as the only people who really know where it is have gone over.