Discussion: Grading the Rule Changes

Grading the Rule ChangesWell, the rule changes are out, and going over them, after a lot of rhetoric here and conversations with players across the country, I give them an A. They made the main changes I felt they should. Changing AAA to outs after 3 was one. 70 foot bases is another. Changing Major Plus to 9 hr's and 7 per inning is good, although I would have been happy with the 12 and 9.
As far as the 1-1 count is concerned, I used to like it a lot, but have gotten used to the 4-3. Talking to players in general, I think they got that right by not changing it. The guys who are vocal about changing it are loud, but talking along the spectrum of players, there is a strong, quiet support for 4-3.
I don't think you will see unlimited arc anytime soon, either.
As far as changing the mat size, I would be in favor of another 2" wide and 2" long, but not much more than that. But that is for discussion next year now. The premise of the game is hitting to a large majority of players. Though there is a vocal segment for more defensive enhancements within the rules, I again think that the large majority would not be happy with that.
Everyone needs to realize that, although the rules meeting is the big rules event of the year, these people are listening, and discussing rules all year. Nothing is 'spur of the moment'. I know not everyone will agree, but I say 'good job'.

I would be ok with the 4-3 count except the time limits. The SSUSA tournament in Bridgeton MO last year had 50 minute time limits with a 4-3 count. I don't believe there was a complete game the entire tournament.

Wow, 1 and 1 count to start is what I would of thought was the no brainer... I do believe they got this dead ass wrong, As Cal 50 has pointed out! And if they didn't do that change, they could of extended the games by 15 min!

Well I'm going to give them a D. I agree with Swing, they struck out on the 1-1 count. It's badly needed, maybe they could have done it for 50's and 55's only? I don't know, just a thought.

The AAA home run rule is a terrible idea. There are a lot of powerful hitters that don't possess great bat control (me). I felt a lot more comfortable this last year knowing I could swing for the gaps and if it went out, then it wasn't too bad. Now I'll have to bring my swing down a little and...

Now don't bash me for being a head-hunter, never have been never will. I'm stating what is going to be back in the game that I saw very little of this year. SSUSA was NOT thinking of player safety with this one. That's for sure.

A = for the hr rule changes....AAA don't need to be putting balls out of the park,like with the old rule....saw to many AAA teams get more than the allotted 3,with all others being walks this year....now with the outs,maybe they can play up,or learn to hit rather than slug away.....and please don't tell me ya HAVE to hit middle when hrs are gone,that is a crock of crap......just means your not a hitter,and are a swing as hard as you can type.....

do like the 1-1 count,but can go either way...all my leagues here use the 1-1 count,so no prol for me.....

Just for the record....NOT every league begins with a 1 and 1 count. A very competitive and extensivenly tournament player filled league in the greater Sacramento area tried the 1 and 1 for several years. It was determined that there was not any significant time savings, the players did not welcome the change and the league voted to return to the 0 and 0 count for 2013.

What this AAA HR rule does is pretty much splits everything into upper and lower divisons. If you are a AAA team and want to hit the ball over the fence, move up to Major! AAA pitchers ... stay safe! Still no incentive for anyone to move up to Major+, however.

db14-that's what I was talking about-players don't welcome the change-it is more of a vocal minority that talk about it, but I sure don't see a huge majority clamoring for it.
Swing-our Albuquerque leagues play 4-3. Seems to be fine for about everyone.

cal50-why 50 minutes? That's silly. Was there a weather problem? We never saw anything like that last year. I can see instituting the 1-1 in weather delay situations, or even 1 pitch.

Jawood-they were especially watching AAA for home runs.The movement they try to encourage is upward to your real level. Too many teams may play at a 'comfortable' level, for whatever reason (friendship, sandbagging, etc.) when they could compete at the next level. But, one thing I have found is that 'upward competitive push' is not there because of friendships and 'less stomach' for the practice and dedication to get better. Guys are content where they are. That's not a bad thing, either. Just a fact.

A lot of guys complain about this team should be higher, that they should not have gotten bumped, etc. but have you really thought about how tough it is to actually make those decisions fairly? There are always going to be unhappy people.

For myself, 0\0 count start preferred, the other really doesn't add time, that is primarily used up in the on\off field change, runner change outs and questionable play calls.
If you can't hit the mat as it originally was let alone the bigger one, get another pitcher who can, & change your position on the field.
Those AAA teams they speak about hitting excessive balls out, move them up a notch.
Think you'll see more heart attacks or strokes especially in the heat, at 70'.

Webbie, no weather conditions at all. I went back and looked at the schedule posted, it said 50 minute time limit all along. I am sure most people overlooked that part of it or there were have been fewer teams. I learned a lesson to always look at what they have posted as the time limits now. It was beyond silly.

Taits, the reason for the mat being bigger is not because pitchers can't hit it, reasoning is to give the pitcher a little more advantage by making the strike zone bigger.

Jawood, since major plus and major won't be combined how about if a major plus team plays a major team simply play straight up using the major home run rule. No need for giving 5 runs or letting them have an 11th fielder.

Webbie, personally i would not worry too much about what you read here on the board as you well know there are only a handful of those who post here vs. the huge numbers out there that make up the senior softball numbers. Trust me there are many behind the scenes who are quite vocal. The main culprit of the shortened games was the runs per inning. Regarding the 1 and 1 count a survey will be going out via SSUSA seeking input from those who receive it. Just a guess but i believe it will be voted down, however just my guess.

THE "1-UP" IN BOTTOM OF THE OPEN INNING "fix" was corrected in the Wednesday session. See the TECHNICAL RULEBOOK CORRECTIONS/CLARIFICATIONS portion of the Minutes for that day.

The issue became 'moot' on Thursday when the Home Run Rules were modified to eliminate the "1-Up" provisions. See the chart appearing on page 2 of the Minutes under the section titled PLAYING RULES CHANGES • APPROVED OR REJECTED.

The practical effect is that a team may hit a walk-off game winner in the bottom of the open, but only if they still have a home run left in their original game count.

I play in 2 leagues with a 0 - 0 starting count and a 55 min time limit. We almost never play a 7 inning game. In Past seasons I played in a league with a 1 - 1 starting count and a 55 min time limit, and we almost always played 7 innings. A 1 - 1 starting count would be good for us and would have been good for the SSUSA.

1. 1 and 1 does not speed up the game you just think it does
2. Pitcher like it because it's one less strike they have to
put in play
3. If you want to speed the game up have your on deck batter
standing in the on deck circle and NOT in the dugout
shooting the s---.
4. If you want to speed the game up stop taking 3-5 min to put
in a substitute runner

SSUSA rules committee members:
I am impressed with outcome of your meeting. You addressed rules that affect all levels of play. I believe that AAA ought to be more about the non-HR elements and the '3 HRs then an out' makes good sense. I also think that the 1-1 count is over rated as a time saver. But this is still on the table for the next month or so.
The new rules seem very 'division appropriate'. It is my hope that SSUSA will remain consistent with them going forward.
I try to view this as globally as possible and this is I feel so good about the rules committee's posture.
BW

Stick, I know Major and Major+ will not combine. I was just pointing out that it's basically a division that can hit the ball out of the park all the time and a division that can't ... with two levels in each.

Just the Major HR rule is not much of an equalizer for them (9 HR's to 6 HR's is not much difference). To be fair, if a Major+ team plays a Major team, they should play with ALL of the Major rules, HR's, runs per inning and no players outside their borders, since Major can't have them.

Wood, the 1-1 count is not overrated as a time saver, it does save about 10 minutes on average ... time that can be used for game action, not watching batters take pitches.

I found the stats on the number of Hr's hit in AAA very telling. it appears there are a number of players and teams playing below what many may believe is their true level of play. It appears sandbagging is alive and well in senior softball. Maybe the new rule for AAA HR's will cuase some teams and players to move up to where they should be.

I am an advocate of the 1-1 count. Every tourney I have played in with the 4-3 count. Players sit and wait for the first strike anyway. A 1-1 count would elimate this writing and batters would be more inclined to swing 1st strike.

Wes: I concur w/ the on deck batter situation and add the chit chat going on coming on and off the field. Hustle in and hustle out is lost in the senior game. Guys complain they can't get all the innings in but aren't willing to change the way they do things.
I also say a courtesy runner should be available as soon as the initial runner gets to the base. If a batter is in the box no courtesy runner while that batter is hitting. Replace the runner while the next bateer is coming to the plate only.

Like a number of you, I also feel the AAA home run rule change making any homer over three an out is a good move. However, changing the Major HR rule to six and the Major + rule to nine is not the answer. The AAA rule change was to force teams to move up. I feel the HR rule for Major should be seven HR's and an out. The bigger gap (from 3 to 7) would entice even more teams to move up to major, and outs after seven HR's would force Major teams up. I also feel the M+ HR rule should not be reduced to nine. The HR rule for M+ should be at least ten. After all...this is M+.

Cal50, I would also like to see all senior tournament games get rid of the 50 minute games. Sixty minute games should be the minimum time limit. Why can't that be a rule?

Webbie25, I agree with you regarding the 4-3 count and adding inches to the plate. Adding inches to the plate is a step in the right direction.

I feel the association did a good job addressing concerns. They get a solid "B" from me. Remember...you can't make everyone happy all the time.

Fairly happy with most rule decisions. I love the one about limiting AAA and then making homers outs. Played on a AAA team most of my senior career. We had a good team for 2 or 3 years and had ONE (1) guy who could usually be depended upon to hit more than 300 feet once in a game. Then we added a second slugger and got bumped to major! If AAA teams have trouble keeping their home runs under 4 in a game, they ought to consider moving up to major.

I'm neutral on the 1-1 count. Seldom played with it so don't know the strategy. I prefer 0-0. The 70 foot bases are not popular with most 70 and over guys I know. The legs slow down faster than the arms, it seems. Also, adding 5 feet to every base pushes guys going for a double or a triple.

Someone please explain the rule change for AAA. Played 50AAA in Phoenix in 2010 & 11. It was 3 home runs then an out at that time. What has this new rule changed? Just like some clarification. Appreciate someone clearing it up for me.
PS one and one doesn't save any time. My 2cents.

Jawood:
1-1 count - I do not care whether this is implemented or not as I'm not invested in this issue. However, those that think that the 1-1 count will get us into the 7th inning are the same type of thinkers that re-arranged the deck chairs on the Titanic. Leave the 1-1 to succeed/fail on its true merits and look for better ways to extend games. I don't care whether it's 1-1 or 4-3, we'Ll play either way.

Out of area players - you mention this in the 'govt cheese' portion of your comment about making life much better for m teams (when they play M+ teams). Even though no facts have supported the ca/fl thing (cloing their borders), you are comfortable throwing this in the 'let's make it easy' bag for the M teams. So, using your logic, what we do when we play m teams? Should we ask our non-cA guys to stay in the car when play them? If so, we'll forfeit because we only have 7 ca players.
Which ca/fl teams, using non-ca/fl guys, have dominated play so much that has caused you to make this an issue?
BW

If Major and Major+ are going to be playing against each other in 90% of the tournaments, don't you think they should play with rules that help the Major teams to compete? That's what an equalizer does. I play on a Major+ team anyway, so I'm not trying to get something for nothing.

Omar,my 70's team doesn't mind the 70' bases at all. It's makes for a better game. I personally love the rule change. The other rule change that I also like very much is the pitcher being allowed to pitch from 60', this added distance will allow the pitcher to be back a little further and have a safer chance of making a difference defensively. Overall grade------A.

Actually the AAA rule with more than 3 HR as outs really is a negative.

We are a AAA team, and there are lots like us, we might hit 7 HRs in one game, and 4 in the next 3 games combined. There are lots of AAA teams with some power, but not the consistency of the Major/Major+ teams. And to me that's one significant difference-consistency.

Penalizing those AAA teams does not provide an environment that supports any growth and maturity into a Major level team. It actually works towards keeping them at a AAA level.

SSUSA should have never allowed more than 1 home run for the AAA division. You allowed home run hitters to exist in AAA division. AAA should get 1 hr. and a walk after 1.

Hey southernson,
By you own admission, it sounds like your team should be a major team and you guys are sandbagging. The SSUSA rated D&K 60M+ after we won 60M at SPA last year. I have no problem with that (only because I'm a Plus player on a Major team). We have 7 guys who have enough power and who have gone yard at least 1 time in our entire Tourniment Season last year.
We NEVER hit 7 in a game or even 6. We normally would hit 5-7 hrs in 3 games. Yea, there are a lot of guys and teams riding under the radar and they always play or compete against weaker teams. It's really is a shame that this issue will never be resolved.
SSUSA still have a long way to Go to Level or even out the playing field!

On the pitch count I do believe that the
1 and 1 count favors the pitcher and the 3-4 favors the hitter.
5 or 7 pitches does it really matter? Yes.

Jawood:
You've missed my point about the 'CA/FL bordering states' issue. You and others are tossing out this out there as if it's a foregone conclusion that teams using bordering state players are better off than those who do not. It's the 'everybody knows' position and is based upon supposition, not based upon facts.
If you want to know the facts, speak with any NW representative that attended the rules committee meeting. He/she can tell you about the research that was shared in which the correlation between dominant teams and this rule (for CA/FL teams) was shown to be non-existent. Period.
So the sooner you and others that deal in innuedo, rumor and supposition switch to using the available and relevant facts the better we'll all be for it.
The 'advantage' that you throw out there is no greater than the advantage gained by wearing green jerseys in lieu of blue.
But I do get your argument, in general, about equalizers.
BW

curveball, I know several 70 and older players who no longer have the power to hit past the outfielders, and don't have the bat control to hit consistently in the gap between infielder and outfielder. What they have successfully done is hit the left-side hole with a ground ball to keep their average up.

Can't be 100% that way, either, so sometimes the ball is within reach of either the 3B or SS, but since they are extended while fielding it, their throws can be off-balance, or it takes time to get set to throw. These older guys I know usually are fast enough to beat the throw to first (I've had good luck with this myself when trying for the hole).

When we play with 70 foot bases, a lot of these guys (and myself) are now out by just a step going to first. That's just one example of why older guys don't like the longer distance.

I also know a couple of 70+ 3B who gripe about 70 foot bases because it makes the hole slightly larger and the ball gets by them more often. They feel like they can't play deeper, because that makes the throw farther to first.

Maybe its just perception and things equal out (nothing equals out having to run 20 feet further trying for an in-the-park home run), but when a team is faced with an unexpected 70 feet distance at a tournament, I hear a lot of moans and unhappiness.

I agree with the changes to the AAA hr being an out after the max has been hit...However I would also like that rule placed in the upper divisions also. Although most Major + players can hit it out at will, it makes for a more balanced game when these big guys come to the plate, all hrs have been hit and they have NO BAT CONTROL in order to get a base hit....(I know I'll always get the argument if you hit a ball 300+Ft it shouldn't be a out)IMO if you play at the major & major + level you should know how to get a base hit with bat control..PERIOD! the dead ball out speeds up the game also...I played in a tourney where the open inning was " 1 PITCH" walk,hit or out! I really liked it, the open inning when really fast!

Tim, 'twas good to finally put a face to a name.
In my area we played 1\1 as well as 3 pitch ball and there are a few hundred senior players on my area that players back then as well.
Still most prefer 0\0.

The new 'box' will work for many, for it gives more room to pitch from.
Now if they only enlarged the matt to that size, so a few might hit it, more often, it seems it will make a few more pitchers happy...lmao Maybe even lower the height to 8 feet to its even more of a meatball they already get.

I agree with the Homerun change for AAA, but I don't know if it will really encourage teams to move up. My brother plays with homeruns being outs and I don't see them moving up in the short term. They will probably just adjust.

Disagree with rightrj1 about Major+ players being able to hit it out at will. I agree they have more of a likelihood of hitting a HR, but if they could hit 1 every time they would not be playing senior ball.

Statistically I would suspect that based on the times at bat, power hitters hit as follows: 50+ hits 1 every 3.5, 55 1 every 4.5, 60 1 every 5.5, 65 1 every 7.5. What skews the overall HR numbers are the other players that hit HRs. It just seems like we hit a lot of them because everyone hits the ball hard.

The most Hrs we hit this year was 13. Everyone had 4 at bats, some with 5. 5 guys did not hit a HR and 7 guys hit the rest. Most of our games we only had 6 Hrs or less. I don't know if those numbers will hold up this upcoming season, if we play up to our potential I might have to break out the abacus.

I Think one important reason was over looked, SSUSA said there were a more than normal home runs hit in the vegas world tournament. SSUSA changed from the stote trump ball to the evil rock ball which is hotter that the stote,we have banned it from our league play and i have spoken with teams in other parts of the country that have banned it also. So the amount of home runs hit it vegas was not with ball hit with in most tournament. So everything is misleading on the home run totals.

Good point on the ball LP. Seen a lot of HR's in Vegas Worlds at 60 AAA with the Rock and at Major in Phoenix during the Winter Worlds this year very few by any of the teams. By the way we like the Rock as it stays consistently good. Even at 100* the ball was as good as at 75*.

I don't agree with 70' ft. base's, how could moving the bases back another 5' ft help anyone?? As far as the infield player they play at the edge of the grass anyway. and having to throw it across the field to first base makes no sense. making these's guy's run an extra 5'ft, I feel more injuries would happen. As far as AAA homerun limit to 3 than an out is fine. at this level everyone that hits homeruns knows how to keep it in the park when the limit is met.

slyone-just because the bases are 5 feet further doesn't mean you have to play back another 5 feet. Most guys I watched-not all-but most played at the same depth and took advantage of having that extra split second in the infield. And I can tell you it opened up the possibility of throwing guys out on the bases from the outfield. It really took away the almost automatic double from a lot of players. IMHO it was the best move they made.

I think the major thing that was considered for the base length is...Vegas is kinda owned by NSA and NSA HAS 70 foot bases.

In the end...I can understand why they let the runners on first use the orange bag for safety....70 feet lets the infielders play a little deeper....60 feet lets the pitcher throw from a little farther back for safety...

Someone needs to explain how the 70" bases are going to make it safer game. More hammy's are pulled in the last few feet trying to make it to the bag at first than at anytime in the game. Will they be cutting all the infields back to accomondate the 5" difference in the bag? If not, moving the bags makes no difference in safety or double plays. If an infielder can catch the rockets launched off the bats, chances are it will be an easy double play. Also, if the players move back on the grass to make up for the 5" lost, they will have to deal with the lip on the infield grass. That in itself will create more injuries than before the move. JMO

Omar, guess it's just a difference in opinion. No matter what the rules are, there will be a variety of ideas about what's right for the game. Our opinions just differ on base distance.

The 70's 3rd basemen you know shouldn't have any gripe about a larger 5-6 hole, 70's get an extra fielder and the 5-6 hole is almost gone!

I'm not sure what level the 70's you know play at, nor their overall physical condition, but so far, the guys I've seen at tournaments still have a high level of game. They have brought to the 70's a very elevated skill level quite frankly that wasn't there 5-10 years ago. As far as not being able to hit holes or gaps, I have not seen that problem at all. In fact, quite the opposite, they can hit well.

Pricer, one way the baserunner will have a split second longer to react to the line drive hit at him while he is on base.

Here's a rule that would help the baserunners on the corners. I believe I used it in a USSSA tourney maybe ASA anyway. Give the base runner the opportunity to step off the base and stand some 5' from the base. When the ball is hit the runner must tag the base first before proceeding to the next base.

I personally in senior and USSSA league and tourneys leave 3rd base as the ball reaches the plate and head into foul territory. I have never been called for leaving the base early. I make it a point to got back and touch 3rd before going home. I have also never had an oppossing team complain. In fact the response from every 3rd baseman is. "So this guy likes to pull" and we both laugh. If I know a player pulls I refuse to be a human target. lol

Boston there are house leagues that have that rule. What's done is a line is drawn where the baserunner can stand--presumably the line of the coaching box. The runner must touch the base first before advancing. I'm not certain about ASA but I do know in USSSA qualifiers, NIT's, regionals & world tournaments they don't allow that.

I'd rather have a pulled muscle than a ball between the eyes. 5 extra feet gives you a split second more time to react. Most fields are already deep enough to accomondate the 70' bases (especially with more turf fields), and if not, just have them cut back, it's not difficult.

boston, I have always said that the runners are one's that are in the most danger. Give them a glove for protection!

FOFO, You are right, the Major division will probably get a boost, but they'll be the same 4-5 teams at the Major+ events, because the Major rules are perfect with no incentive to move up!

stick ASA doesn't allow it either.....now for the 70' bases,most all the assoc have them now,ASA will be having them next year(2013)....i see no prol with having them....as for the 1-1 count start,hey guys it has been around since the 80's(USSSA)......I like it,see no prol with it.....

Mad Dog I have no issues with 70 ft bases. I played it in USSSA and NSA for years before I was old enough to play senior ball. The infields need to cut deep enough for it. I play middle in our 5 man and in Phoenix (Desert West) I was deep on the grass because the infield was cut way too short.

A statistical review by staff of ALL game cards from the 2012 World Masters Championships revealed a significantly higher proportion of AAA teams hitting 'excess home runs' at a greater rate than in any other division. Double-digit HR totals for numerous AAA teams, especially in the 50+ and 55+ age groups, were very common.

Let's look at this AAA HR's limit is 3 and teams were averaging double digits in HR's so that would be 10 that is three times the limit, how plus teams do you think averaged 27 HR's or how many major teams averaged 21 HR's?

Pricer,
I designed those balls way back when and yes they are 20-30 better than a stote ball. Then add in the fact that you are playing at 4400 ft above sea level with very low humidity and you could easily add 50-70 ft on distances. Really well hit balls by bigger hitters can add 100ft.

LP you may not be wrong. But I'm curious to know what facility the AAA teams played at. The reason is because my team (OKI) plays 50 major plus and we played at the Field Of Dreams. As I saw it the fences were somewhat shorter than the normal 300 ft field. If that's the facility they played at then I believe those shorter fences may have played a role.

Pricer, the X-Rock had a lot to do with the very high count in Vegas. Tattoo is not exaggerating at all about his ball. Every BP session we have the longest ball hit is the Rock 9 times out of 10. You can really feel it compress the bat more then any other ball I've hit.

I find it ironic that staff used the worst run tourney I've been in, to base their decision on. Vegas' dry air, coupled with playing at 1 in the morning with a ridicules ball, made for some out-of-whack games. WE played in Phoenix with the regular Stote ball and normal temps. around 80*. The games were close and nowhere near the homers hit in Vegas. I guess it just pisses me off when people like "staff" make shit up. You got the money and make all the rules, just quite jacking us around.

When I heard "The Rock' was being used in a senior tourney w/ senior bats, i was in shock. I play alot of USSSA and we use the Rock as much as possible. These balls are sick. I have several older ones my senior buddies & I use for bp as well and people hit the piss out of them. I can se where these balls made a difference w/ senior bats.

What's not to like about starting with 1-1 count?
In my 10+ years of Sr. Softball, I would estimate at least 75% of players take the 1st pitch. Why?
Doesn't matter if it's a perfect pitch to hit or not.
Don't tell me this does not add 5+ minutes to each game.
It's always been a hitter's game, then hit when you walk up to the plate!!
We still don't cut the pitcher a break with any of the recent changes. This may give the pitcher 'a bit' of a break.
I assume the batter would still get an extra foul on the 3rd strike. Make it even better for the pitcher by doing what we do in our league. We start 1-1 with no extra foul. You come to the plate hackin' and the games move along quickly.
Assessing other changes:
The AAA HR changes are great. I've touted this for the last several years for the same reasons your committee stated.

Bases 70' - love it.

HR and Run/inning rules for Major/Major+ - ok with me

Mat should be longer and wider IMO.

ATTENTION SSUSA!!!!
One change that I have mentioned on this board and to Tournament Directors at various tournament would be the following:

In order to make pool games mean something, allow the higher seeded team to be home team throughout the double/triple elimination portion of the tournament. If not through the whole tournament, at least while they remain in the Winner's Bracket. It would add a bit more importance to those games and possibly erase any doubt of 'sandbagging'.

Just my input for what it's worth...I love this game and would play with a broom stick and a sock ball.

If you do the math and say it causes only 1 extra pitch per batter. (We timed some pitches, the average pitch from pitcher to catcher until the pitcher threw his next pitch was about 15 seconds) If there is just 1 extra pitch per batter and estimate that there are a total of 80 plate appearances total for both teams in a game (multiply times 15 seconds). This would amount to 20 minutes of wasted time in a game. I am not sure if I am correct on the 1 extra pitch per batter, but if it is only 1/2 of what I say, that is 10 minutes wasted per game.

1) Prefer 1-1 Count, None to Waste! Not Opposed to 1 to waste!
2) Prefer 6-12 Arc, but "Do Not Argue" the 12' Arc!
2a) Prefer to Hit 10' Arc or less as a Hitter just like everyone else, but remember I DO PITCH!
3) Prefer to RID SENIOR SOFTBALL OF SENIOR BATS ! ! !
3A) Senior Bats are not going away, so use Trump Stote only!
4) Prefer No Safety Net(s) on the Field ! ! !

Canljack,
Understand the sentiment, but we are not sandbagging. It's not BFE,USA we play in, it's Florida, which is just like California and Texas. There are A LOT of good teams and I routinely see AAA teams we play against hit 3+ HRs a game.

Basically if you think AAA is 3 home run league what you are saying is that:

-The 1&2 and 8-11 hitter NEVER HIT A HOME RUN in their career.
-The 3-7 hitters, those 5 guys with an average of 20 at bats per game, 17 of those times they are going to HAVE TO FAIL TO HIT A HOME RUN. They can only succeed 3 times, and then it's an out.

That's an average AA team in Florida, California, and Texas on any weekend, not a AAA team that has to play against Major teams at times.

Making HR's outs AT ANY LEVEL is just insane and faulty logic applied. It's certifiable nuts. And it doesn't promote "safety". Making HR's outs "AT ANY LEVEL" PROMOTES an environment of increased risk of injury to infielders.

Since I play in the 50's...I would agree that the rules changes are good.
But
Since I coach a 40 team, I would of liked to hear if there were any proposals considered with respect to the HR rules of the 40's...I still do not know why we in 40's have to continually play by different rules than the Senior Program...I did see that the extra defender rule was changed in equalizers...But did not hear the application when 40's are playing 50 teams in equalizers. Thanks

Major and Major + are the "Homerun Derby" levels. If all your trying to do every atbat is jack a homerun then these are the levels for you and that is all fine and good. The AAA and AA levels are for players who really want to play softball the way it's meant to be played....without the homerun derby. You can design a team for any level of play, play within the rules and be very succussful. Take an assessment.....what level is your team really designed to play??

Guys,
IMHO the idea is to grow and improve a team over time. If you are a AA team, the idea is add talent, grow, and improve to AAA. And if you are AAA, the idea is to add talent, grow, and improve to Major, and so on.

The goal is NOT TO:
->Avoid adding players that may improve the teams's overall ability so as to stay in your current ranking
->Have governance in HR's such that it impairs your ability to attract new talent, grow and improve your team to a higher ranking
->NOT to BREAK UP or RENAME a team just to stay in your current ranking as a AA, AAA, or Major team
->Not to have all the Power Hitters go to a Major or Major+ team as a new player in Senior Softball thereby forever keeping the AA and AAA teams weaker, but to be able to attract some of them into being a part of growing the whole team and it's ranking as AAA, Major, or more

The HR rule of 3 and then outs does all of the above. It encourages teams to sandbag to stay at a lower level, it encourages the Power Hitters to continue to enter at only the top levels, and it encourages the deceit of teams remaining with the same players and same level yet under a different team name.

It's not like an AAA team gets 5 new HR hitters all at once, it takes years to achieve that.

Our team does not have a team goal to "improve" to play at Major or Major+. We do not want to play at nor will we play at Major or Major+ level. Our goal is to keep our core guys together and play at the level we are best designed for and that is AAA. We play within the rules and do just fine....we win some and we lose some. Nothing wrong with that.

There is no one specific 'team goal' that fits every team. You make the determination of what your team's goals will be (you = the guys on your team). Whatever your team decides upon is how you ought to steer it. Recruit the guys that can fit within your goals and will embrace them.
But SSUSA, SPA or whatever other association you're planning to play makes their rules for what they believe will strengthen the overall health of a given division. If their rules conflict with your team's goals your team needs to be the one to make the adjustment.
It's somewhat like blending in with society.
There is no outside force stopping your team from developing, Southernson. Perhaps the directrion you intended to take has changed but the only thing that will retard your team from achieving its goal is you (the guys on your team).
None of the better teams in any division (or any age group) got there without a lot planning, a lot of effort and follow through. It aint like painting where you start at the top and work down.
If your team wants to hit HRs then, as JSheeren said, you need to play major. If you want to remain in AAA then your team needs to improve all of its non-HR elements. You can improve in either environment... it's up to you & your teammates.
BW

Gonna have to agree with jsheeran on this.
You customize your team to play within the rules that are set out.

If you go out and get 5 guys (as mentioned 3-7 hitters) who can hit it out at will, then they better be able to keep it in the ball park at will also.

I think this rule not only helps AAA by weeding out the top heavy players (by that I mean free swingers with HR on their mind), but also should beef up the Major and Major+ rosters by having these players playing where their HR's count every time they hit one. It will hopefully add to the ranks of Major and Major+ teams,

You're right southernson,in saying that this will draw AAA closer to AA, but that's what they want. And that's the way it should be.

To be classified as a Major or Major+ connotes the highest levels of competition (maybe a better word would be strength).

There is competition at every level. I've played AA, AAA and Major. Currently on a Major team.

Senior softball, whether we like it or not, has put out a product that makes you feel like you have a chance to win every time you go on the field.

The fact that we are playing with some of our best friends is just a dollop of ice cream on grandma's apple pie.

dMON I agree with you about the 1-1 pitch. As a pitcher I know that most times a batter will not swing on a 1st pitch. So the way I figure it that is 6 batters per inning looking at least at 6 extra pitches. 7 innings add up to 42 extra pitches being thrown at least often without a swing. If you figure around 3o seconds per pitch with stepping in and out and other distractions that adds up to 21 minutes.(Could be shorter but at least 10 minutes) several innings. No wonder we stuggle to get in 6-7 innings a game. I hate the rule as a batter and a pitcher. I guess I should be glad to know at least I will not get drilled on the first pitch most times. As for the 3 home run rule for AAA- I also love it . In Vegas worlds we played Texas team that won 55AAA division and 3 of first 4 hitters in first inning hit a home run. They must have hit at least 6-7 more for singles and many off the wall. Would have loved having those extra outs. That kind of power is not AAA level. Sounds more like my buddy Webbie's power. The rest is up to powers that be I just enjoy playing ball against you guys. I am hopeful that the coaches if given a survey will push for 1-1 count if not please stop crying about not getting in 7 innings. Bless all duringg this Christmas holiday, Please keep coach of CJS Barry in your prayers as he is in hospital with some possible injury to two heart valves due to infection. I talked to him today and wish him the best. GI

I have to comment on 70ft. Bases.Most leagues have adapted the rules to allow a runner from home plate(Ada)Leagues do not own the fields.We have to get the city or county to move them.Why do think courtesy runners are allowed.Hello we have a hard time running the bases So make it harder. For the life of why try to fix it when it is not broken.

And that's what I like about this board....
Wood & DMON,
You do make some good and valid points, and I understand the perspective....it did make me think.

I'm just saying overall the framework doesn't encourage keeping a team together and upward mobility. If a team's goal is to win, then at some point, you are going to win enough games and be moved to a higher division. Oh, no, just keep the same guys, rename the team, and stay in AAA. And so the framework cater's to the status quo folks, and you are right, it's just like our current society...which at it's core is failing.

Wonder why we all go to "National" tournaments and there are only 5 teams in a bracket, where there were 100 teams in 4 hour driving distance. We shouldn't wonder at all....

Trying to win has been replaced by being comfortably status quo...to me that's sad...goodbye America, I once knew ya...I guess it won't be long before we'll be paying our tournament entry fees in yen....

Southernson:
Being paranoid doesn't mean that 'they aren't coming after you'... :-)
You & your team just needs to sort out the things that are important to you.
From what you said, your teammates need to work on keeping the ball in the park until there are 2-3 guys on base or it's late in the game. Years ago, we played a lot of 40-45+ ASA & USSSA with similar rules and we adapted just fine. It does add a strategy to the game and it does make you work at becoming more proficient in the other areas.
Go the opposite way or use less lethal bats until you need them.
They are many teams with bigger problems.
The bottom line is that it's still just softball... find ways to enjoy it.
BW

Good! IMO, laughter is the best medicine most of the time and if we can't laugh at ourselves we're really in a bad spot...
Just the same, I'd be checking the other cars in your office parking lot as you can really never be too careful... :-)
BW

Southernson, if you want something that keeps you laughing, you should talk to Woody when he's coaching. I play SS and he knows how to effectively distract when he is in the 3rd base box. And a truely nice guy. Aint that right Meat.

I agree with most of the rules except the pitch count. I pitch and leadoff and I think it's an incredible waste of time when you have time limits on games. What about the seeding games on Fridays? Making people take off of work, get a hotel for an extra night, driving the price up of tourneys and wearing everyone out for Sunday?

I have heard a lot of talk regarding the 1-1 and 0-0 counts. Our senior league conducted a test with the 1-1 count two seasons ago. It was conducted due to board members trying to reduce games times. Well...it worked. It worked so well that it was stopped after a month. The reason being batters were not getting the at bats they usually get. I think it had something to do with someone calling this a hitters' game.

My approach to shortening the games is simple. Use the Trump ball instead of the Rock. I played with the ball in Reno in 95+ degree heat and it was still leaving the park. Some players have indicated the ball gets soft in the heat. My answer is to man-up. If you miss the ball badly...the ball should not float out like it did in the World.

The debate will continue to go on over the the 1-1 count. At some point, it will change when most all of the players that are involved with senior softball in the future know nothing but a 1 and 1 count. Until then, it probably will not change.

Players don't want shortened games, they want more action in the time limit given for the games.

After playing AAA from 2006-2011 when the HR limit was 3 and then an out, I know how many times I had to hit down to preserve the HR's for when we needed them. That first inning HR was almost always an accident. It took me several tournaments last year at M+ to quit apologizing for hitting a solo in the first inning and the team got a good chuckle over that. Three and an out is, to me, the only way to go. If you can't keep it in the park, maybe you shouldn't be playing AAA.

Our team enjoy the Rock ball as it stays consistent, it flies just as well at 100* as in 75* heat. It is much easier to hit a 44/375 ball out of the park in Reno or Denver at 95* temperature than most other Cities.

Allan55 - Use the Trump ball instead of the Rock. I played with the ball in Reno in 95+ degree heat and it was still leaving the park. Response: It was Reno, any ball will fly. I agree the Trump is better than it was 3 years ago, but the "rock" stays consistent throughout the game and tourney.

General - Divisions are designed to try and create levels of like, kind and quality of play. For the lack of a better term, the HR and run differential is the measuring stick for each level. If a team consistently exceeds the expectations of play within that group then they should participate at a level different than their current level, until they reach the highest plateau.

I mostly agree with Webbie, but it is not the errant or occasional HR than creates issues at AAA. It is the team that consistently exceeds the acceptable norm that creates controversy. You can argue what that level should be, but until someone provides a better or different statistical analysis, I tend to side with the governing body, whichever that governing body may be.
HRs at the AA and AAA level has more of an impact on a game than at the Major and Major+ level. The compromise would be to play three and one up or one up from the start.

I have played on Major+ teams that played AAA teams and lost. We lost because the AAA out hit us and as a year we could not adjust. Therefore, if a super strong (should be major) AAA team played one up, they would not have a significant advantage from a run production capability, utilizing the Earl Weaver strategy of a 3 run homer. Same when Major plays Major+, once you hit the Max then one up. Giving up runs, when you are limited to the number of runs you can score is a double whammy.

Kind of like when my Ex asked for a divorce and then informed me she was getting a breast enhancement. At least I did not have to pay for it. Oh wait, I paid for it for years afterward. You get my point.

Mark (Webbie) I could not agree with you more than your statement about 3 homeruns being enough. I am still having work on my neck (looking at fence) from the worlds in vegas when the team that won AAA 55 out of Texas hit 3 homeruns in 1st inning with batters 1-2-and 4 Imust have walked 3rd batter. To make it worse they hit many more singles over the fence in their at bats and also several off fence. Maybe we could have given them a better game without all those extra singles. They matched your Major plus team with power and I am sure they will do well in Major or Major plus next year. To be honest I do not see how playing down can be much fun for any team that wants to compete. I enjoy playing tough teams but really do not enjoy facing a team that even on our best day we cannot beat.This rule will help- I played ball with kids at USSSA level and they had a tougher rule. Hit a homerun and inning was over. We (kids) hit one with no outs and bases loaded. Tough rule but sure kept teams from playing down. Also one time was automatic out rest of game every time that hitter came up. Something to think about after 3 homeruns. Just be glad I guess we can still be on field in any way. I will be 60 in March and we never know when this could be our last season so have fun guys. GI

Allen 55, if it is a Quote "Hitters Game"... Then stop taking pitches and hit the freaking ball! 0 and 0 count is just a waste of time! IMO! Hitters dick around and pitchers dick around and what we have here is two people not engaging until they have to! Bottom line is, 1 and 1 count gets the game going! Not IMO, but fact! the thing that slows down our game more so than the young game is us walking back and forth to the field because we are old farts!... I believe we should go to 1 and 1 count and extend our games 10 min... IMO!

softball4b - The Trump ball is much better than it was three years ago, and the Rock is too lively. I feel M and M+ players are talented enough to use the Trump ball. However, you might be right...maybe the old guys need to play with the Rock.

Swing - It would not bother me at all if we played with a 1-1 or 0-0 count. Who said I swing at strikes anyway. I will say one thing about the 1-1 count. In our league's test, the pitchers learned to move more quickly with all of the shots up the middle.

Jawood, I'm not so certain starting off with a 1-1 count makes the game shorter in any significant way. Teams are still going to get their hits, fielders are still going to make errors, teams are going to be lazy retreiving foul balls, players are still going to argue calls, players are going to take their time coming in and off the field. And I suspect most senior players today don't go to the full count before swinging the bat. With heavy emphasis on using the senior bats and good balls most players are there to hit!!
I'm not urging to stay 0-0 or switching to 1-1, I'd be ok either way. I just don't feel games, especially at the major plus level, would be shorter in any significant way starting off with a 1-1 count. jmho

Jawood, If a pitcher throws fewer pitches in a game with a time limit, then more innings will be played in that game. A 1-1 starting count ensures that less pitches will be thrown. GI did the arithmetic in his post of Dec. 5th.

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