I used TT as a filter to check his shot chart, and every single shot in the game was inside the restricted area except one miss from about 6 feet just outside the restricted area in the 3rd Qtr. Now I want those shots to go down and Kyrie's ability to penetrate should help (as well as any savvy he gets with O-Rebounding), but I am not ready to crown him just yet until I see a little mid-range repertoire.

Additionally I'm trying hard but just can't think or don't know a broad enough spectrum of players but... are there cases where a guy came into the league with no shot at all and was able to develop one? I don't mean a shaky shot that you improve working with a guru, I mean a guy who could barely hit the glass from 17 feet.

Big mystery to be ole' JJ. How in the wide world of sports anyone couldn't see that Lebron was making the guy by getting him 4 or 5 dunks a GD game was beyond me.

It wa also pretty clear the guy was too dim to follow Brown's defensive concepts as well.

As a rule, really dumb guys that have zero offensive ability and can't understand defense don't help your team out that much.

And Swerbs comment about Ferry....someone was giving Grant credit for the Sessions trade....these things get me thinking that if Chris Grant can put together about three deals that are extremely mediocre, and doesn't sign horrible free agent point guards to laughable contracts, he;ll immediately become the greatest Cavalier GM of all time, edging out Harry Weltman.

dmiles wrote:Additionally I'm trying hard but just can't think or don't know a broad enough spectrum of players but... are there cases where a guy came into the league with no shot at all and was able to develop one? I don't mean a shaky shot that you improve working with a guru, I mean a guy who could barely hit the glass from 17 feet.

TT has hit 7 of 9 free throws in the past three games. So at least he can stake a claim to making an occasional point or two from 15 feet—but his form from more than 4 or 5 feet is still fugly.And when he puts the ball on the floor, he could be the gawkiest NBA player I've ever seen. I've heard of people who couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time, but it's pretty evident that (at least for now) TT is totally unable to coordinate his body with his dribble.

Not sure it's completely fair to say that Hickson's potential was a hallucination brought on solely by LeBronitus. In 80 games last season as a regular-- admittedly on a historically shitty team with few other weapons-- he put up 14 points and 9 boards a game. This is not the production of a Shawnelle Scott sort of bum. Hickson's shooting percentage did drop a ton last year, but that's because he was no longer just waltzing in for a few minutes of lob passes. In 2011, he had to occasionally try to create shots and wound up shooting 46%. Nonetheless, looked like a solid rebounder, raw athlete, confused defender, and bad jump shooter (though far superior to Tristan)... a 23 year-old work in progress.

The fact that he is now deemed the LESSER part of an Omri Casspi swap is hard to even fathom, considering how completely useless that dude has been. Everybody loses!

aclayman wrote:Not sure it's completely fair to say that Hickson's potential was a hallucination brought on solely by LeBronitus. In 80 games last season as a regular-- admittedly on a historically shitty team with few other weapons-- he put up 14 points and 9 boards a game. This is not the production of a Shawnelle Scott sort of bum. Hickson's shooting percentage did drop a ton last year, but that's because he was no longer just waltzing in for a few minutes of lob passes. In 2011, he had to occasionally try to create shots and wound up shooting 46%. Nonetheless, looked like a solid rebounder, raw athlete, confused defender, and bad jump shooter (though far superior to Tristan)... a 23 year-old work in progress.

The fact that he is now deemed the LESSER part of an Omri Casspi swap is hard to even fathom, considering how completely useless that dude has been. Everybody loses!

But nobody was talking Shawnelle Scott. This was a guy that reportedly Ferry didn't want to offer up in trades cause he was too valuable. Other than that we're saying the same thing. He was an athletic guy that got into the game and was literally handed 4 easy buckets a game by Lebron.

You are saying he looked like a solid rebounder. (Alright) A raw athlete (which gets you nothing) A confused defender (at least confused) and a bad jump shooter (yes)

I would ask, what from your above descrition doesn't tell you that not only should you not be the least bit concerned about moving him, the guy has a better chance to blow than even be JAG. Especially when you add the dumb as a stump issue.

Oh I wasn't playing Ferry defender at all. I would have been more than happy to ship the kid off before the deadline in 2010. My only point was that, as a 22 year old, he did produce last season after LeBron had already departed-- so I didn't subscribe to the theory that he was purely an LBJ creation. We're agreed that anybody who saw Hickson becoming a star would be nuts, but a decent 6th man type? Why not? If you really did see his immediate downfall coming, I give you all the credit. It would have been hard to foresee a team as bad as Sacramento finding no use in the guy.

Well, now we know what TT's problem is. They were playing him out of position - he's a center!!

Too bad the trade deadline passed, we could have traded Andy.

OK, seriously, no way TT puts up 27 in his second career start if Brook Lopez isn't hurt. TT took advantage of his backup. This game was a fluke.

Still, now that TT is getting 35 minutes a game instead of 16, he's starting to figure out a thing or two. I just wonder if all the TT haters are getting a little nervous that he might turn into a consistent double-double guy with starter's minutes at PF next year.

Lotta raging egos majorly invested in that not happening.

But don't worry. As long as he can't knock down that 17' jumper, he can't be any good, right?

Amazing the Pros doesn't post in weeks and then the second TT drops the JJ Hickson Commémorative Fluke Game He shows back up.

Same way he used to do for Hickson every third week.

The kid is still shooting 40% from the field and still can't even make 50% of his shots within five feet of the basket.

BTW: TT just broke out of one of the worst weeks of his year last night, not sure where this "now that he is getting 35 minutes he is figuring things out" load of shit you are trumpeting is coming from. Can you at least wait for a real fucking trend to show up before saying complete and utter lies like this? Gawd you are a fucking knob.

aclayman wrote:Oh I wasn't playing Ferry defender at all. I would have been more than happy to ship the kid off before the deadline in 2010. My only point was that, as a 22 year old, he did produce last season after LeBron had already departed-- so I didn't subscribe to the theory that he was purely an LBJ creation. We're agreed that anybody who saw Hickson becoming a star would be nuts, but a decent 6th man type? Why not? If you really did see his immediate downfall coming, I give you all the credit. It would have been hard to foresee a team as bad as Sacramento finding no use in the guy.

You weren't subscribing to the theory that he was an LBJ creation, yet, in your description of him it looks like, well, an LBL creation. Your only positve comment was he was a solid rebounder. And a good athlete - which I would argue doesn't get you much in a league full of good athletes.

I guess what I'm saying is we're pretty much on the same page. No? Cause when you think about it, a good athlete and solid rebounder, who can't create his own shot, thus is limited offensively, a poor on the ball defender and too dim to play the team's defense.....this guy is going to be a pretty bad player. Whether he's starting, 6th man, 8th man or last man.

For an average PF, what is a good percentage shooting at the rim? from 3-9 feet? And is a servicable 15 foot jumper necessary to be considered a good PF, or is that the realm of above average/elite PFs? Can you be average without that?

Interestingly Ferry went into that draft with a giant boner for Hibbert.

Hibbert didn't fall as far as Ferry had hoped and he reacted by taking the lowest realized of the raw projects mentioned by Madre.

I wanted nothing to do with Hibbert, which was admittedly me being stupid because as quickly as the preseason of his rookie year he showed serious around the rim defensive prowess and everything else has just kept developing.

Prosecutor wrote:Well, now we know what TT's problem is. They were playing him out of position - he's a center!!

Too bad the trade deadline passed, we could have traded Andy.

OK, seriously, no way TT puts up 27 in his second career start if Brook Lopez isn't hurt. TT took advantage of his backup. This game was a fluke.

Still, now that TT is getting 35 minutes a game instead of 16, he's starting to figure out a thing or two. I just wonder if all the TT haters are getting a little nervous that he might turn into a consistent double-double guy with starter's minutes at PF next year.

Lotta raging egos majorly invested in that not happening.

But don't worry. As long as he can't knock down that 17' jumper, he can't be any good, right?

As for JJ, he's probably on the phone to LeBron right now.

Why is it impossible to call the guy what he is? Dude with athletic tools, a nose for the ball, good work ethic, but cannot hit FTs, shoot the ball, or finish consistently.

To put him and Andy together in a lineup is just working with mis-matched parts and unless the Cavaliers find some center with size and an offensive game one of the two (Andy/TT) has to be on the bench.

As for Hickson, agree with Clayman. When are we finally going to dispel this whole untradable Hickson thing. Both Kerr and Ferry have hinted it was never a roadblock, same with Windbag who had the most access and still breaks Cavaliers news (Sessions deal). Guy was an idiot with potential, hopefully the opposite of what TT is billed as, and he ran out of minutes on a team that has talent at his position. Though I find it odd he was waived in the last year of a deal at this point of the season. He has suitors already...

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

And the point with Thompson is that his ceiling is Andy. That isn't a deathblow or a huge deal, but certain scum sucking morons decide to roll in here during his bimonthly explosion and decree him the next Dennis Rodman/Ben Wallace.

If people would let it be that TT is, well, maybe Andy one day no one would ride the kid. But when the trolliest of assholes show up.....

e0y2e3 wrote:Interestingly Ferry went into that draft with a giant boner for Hibbert.

Hibbert didn't fall as far as Ferry had hoped and he reacted by taking the lowest realized of the raw projects mentioned by Madre.

I wanted nothing to do with Hibbert, which was admittedly me being stupid because as quickly as the preseason of his rookie year he showed serious around the rim defensive prowess and everything else has just kept developing.

And I didn't even get to DeAndre Jordan or Omar Asik either. Holy hell that was a deep draft.

And we got Hickson.

"The fucking Who...... If I want to watch old people run around ill go set fire to a nursing home." - CDT

Horford kills him on FT percentage 73% to 50%, but since Scott changed TT's position on the foul line and got him to stop dribbling, he's 12-for-15. If he even comes close to maintaining that he'll be even with Horford on free throws.

The big issue is the FG percentage where TT is only at 43% versus Horford's 50%. That's the area TT needs to improve. All in all, I'd say Horford's rookie year wasn't light years ahead of what TT is doing, except that Horford got a lot more minutes. Maybe the Hawks didn't have a Jamison that year.

Demarcus Cousins? 3rd overall pick. As a rookie last year he shot 43% from the field. Now why does that number sound familiar? This year he's up to 43.6%. He averaged 14.1 ppg and 8.7 boards as a rookie, so he's got TT on the points, but only because he played more minutes per game (28 versus 20). Oh, he got the coach fired, too, which is one area where I don't see TT matching him.

I'm not predicting TT will be the next Al Horford, although that's a better comp than Rodman or Wallace, who TT has already surpassed offensively. We won't really know what we have with TT until he gets to play 30 minutes a night at his natural position, like Horford and Cousins did. Which won't happen this year.

I'm just not ready to give up on the idea that he can be a consistent 15 and 12 guy who plays great defense.

Now let's hear about that all-important 3-to-9 foot shooting percentage.

There is virtually nothing in common between Horford, as a rookie, in college, or ever with TT.

You are the dumbest fucking cocksucker to ever grace this place.

Have you ever watched Al Horford, you know, the guy that has had a polished post game since college as well as a 15 foot jumper play basketball?

You know, the guy that gets NBA all defense votes as a 2nd year player because he is the smartest low post defender in the NBA?

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FUCKING LEARN THAT YOU CAN'T JUST GO, ADD MINUTES A TO MINUTES B AND THEN CALL IT A DAY WHILE PROCLAIMING THAT TT WILL LEARN TO SHOOT!!!!

You not only did this complete and utter bullshit cop-out of an analysis that you live off of, you did so WHILE TOTALLY IGNORING THE BREAKDOWNS OF WHERE THESE PLAYERS WERE SCORING AND HOW THEY WERE DOING IT.

You cannot overcome not being able to finish and not having a jumper in the NBA. Players do not magically learn this. That is why Andy is Andy (and he is a valuable NBA player).

Al Horford has been a refined prospect for longer now than TT has been 6 feet tall, it just is what it is. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON WITH HOW THE TWO PLAY BASKETBALL.

But now, because TT made free throws for one night he has a better offensive game then Rodman (!@#$!%!%!#%!#%!#%%!) and is a good comp to one of the three most polished in their prime fours in the game?

You are fucking on drugs, or just the biggest troll ever.

And yes Boobie shoots way too many 15 footers and shoots like shit, he also can drop 30 and 15 anyy given night. His ceiling is why you cannot even mention him and the midget that can't shoot in the same breathe.

It's fucking JJ Hickson all over again. I swear to gawd SOMEONE HAS TO TELL ME WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING. Because if I analyzed anything for any job I have ever had in the same fucking mouth breathing manor you do basketball I would be fired, right there and then out the door.

I still cannot believe I just read someone comparing Al Horford's game to TT's because they can add minutes to things.

I....

That really happened.

And honestly, is anyone else that reads here dumb enough to have taken me giving examples of where real PFs score from as a BASIS TO RUN A FUCKING MINUTE ADJUSTMENT COMP AND THEN CALL THAT PLAYER A BETTER COMP THAN MOTHERFUCKING DENNIS RODMAN

PS: TT is a pretty damn shitty one on one defender, but keep running him up there as Rodman. It really is JJ Hickson all over again and we can look forward to you trolling one a month for the next forever. I'd consider eating the glock if I were as stupid as you and I sincerely mean that.

^ that is what blows my mind, he makes ridiculous statements then throws in a caveat toward the end that reads "now, I'm not saying anythng I just said was true, but it might be!!!!!!!" to cover his own ass.

Like how is a person that is this stoopid employed? He has to take out the trash, it is the only viable explanation.

How come no one ever figures out that you shouldn't extrapolate minutes out like that because the reason that someone ain't getting those minutes in the first place is becase they aren't as deserving of 30 minutes a game.

That's what I don't get.

If you broke down my salary into an hourly amount and that extrapolated it out over 24 hours per day, 7 days a week I'd be making a lot more than I actually do?

How come no one ever figures out that you shouldn't extrapolate minutes out like that because the reason that someone ain't getting those minutes in the first place is becase they aren't as deserving of 30 minutes a game.

That's what I don't get.

Peeker, I agree that TT is not deserving of the minutes because the Cavs have Jamison at PF. So he's only getting 21 minutes a game while Horford got 31 as a rookie. My guess is the Hawks didn't have a PF of Jamison's caliber on the roster and Horford was the best they had.

I agree that if TT was getting 5 minutes a game you couldn't extrapolate that to 36 minutes or whatever. But I think going from 20 to 30 isn't a stretch. In fact, I believe that a rookie who gets 30 minutes a game will improve faster than a rookie who gets 20 minutes a game. If not for Jamison I believe TT would be further along than he is. He also missed some games with the ankle sprain.

By the way, somebody else brought Horford's name into the conversation, not me. Someone else wishes that TT was a player who is remotely close to Horford. So, I took a look at what Al did as a rookie who was only a year older than TT is now. To my surprise the numbers are very similar except for TT's free throw shooting, which has improved.

I guess I didn't understand that Horford gets bonus points for scoring from 15 feet. Silly me. I was operating under the assumption that a dunk is just as helpful to winning games as a 15' jumper. My bad.

I never said their styles of play were similar. I'm looking strictly at their production as rookies and comparing apples to apples as much as possible.

If you want to argue that a rookie PF who averages 10.1 ppg in 31 minutes is a better offensive player than a rookie PF who averages 7.2 ppg in 21 minutes, well, I can't prove you're wrong, so you're welcome to that opinion. I just don't know how you can convince anyone that if TT got 50% more minutes his scoring and rebounding averages would not be significantly affected. I don't think you even believe that, so I don't know why you posted it, unless you just want to pile on, or you want to be Eyore's lackey or something.

Next year TT should get 30 minutes a game at his natural position, which he has yet to get for EVEN ONE GAME this year. Then we'll get a more accurate idea of what kind of player he will turn out to be. I don't know if he can be another Horford. I'm just saying it's too early to write him off as a blown pick who can't get out of his own way. I also think you can't just dismiss the fact that he put up a 27 and 12 in his second pro start while playing out of position as absolutely meaningless.

And anybody who says Boobie could put up 30 points and grab 15 boards any old time isn't watching the games.

Once I put forward an argument I wasn't convinced was true in an attempt to stimulate an interesting discussion. I wanted to hear what others thought. It was a disaster. People went ballistic. I completely underestimated the egos and emotionality on this board. I won't do that again. If I post something, it will be my honest opinion. I honestly believe TT has a chance to be a very good player, even though he'll never earn any style points for his offense.

Finally, I don't post things just to get under anyone's skin. Provoking someone into revealing his lack of class, maturity, and emotional control by spewing mind-numbing streams of profanity is not my purpose, and I think it detracts from the discussion.

Somebody brought up Horford as the "CLASSIC" PF. Having a 15 FUCKING FOOT jumper and being able to finish means a SHITLOAD. It means he can be a dynamic scorer. It means he can be more consistent. It means you can play on the court with any combo of C/PF. WTF is TT going to do against a team that has decent bigs that can box out. I'll tell you he goes 1 for 6 from the field and 40% from the line. Jesus Christ you cannot be so stupid. What is TT going to do when Andy is healthy? He is going to back up Jamo and play with a back-up PG who won't give him as many easy looks.

I could only go like 4 paragraphs...

PLEASE STOP!

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

In a vacuum if the Cavaliers cannot improve at PF/C through the draft or FA I cannot see under any circumstance where Andy and TT start. Just shoot KI and GEE in the face cuz they are never driving into the paint. That sagging would make east 105 jealous. THERE WILL BE NO LANES!

At that point I'd sign Jamo on a very short very affordable 2 year deal. Do you understand how he has carried this team at times? He is the ONLY option outside of Irving.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Wait, I get it. Prosecutor isn't real at all, he's a SPAM bot that Peeker started after discovering Horse_Ebooks and twitter and realizing how easy it is to create a living and breathing creation device.

To that I beg you to turn it off Peeks, if you want me to end up like the dude from Pi that is fine, but what of the children? Do you understand how damaging reading such vacated and fallacious thoughts and analysis is for developing minds? Do you understand that prolonged exposure to this beacon of completely illogical and fallcious argument you have created won't just hurt me, but will potentially take the whole site down. And then what if it gets out?

The urban myth that motherscratcher was created from prolonged exposure to Prosecutor isn't a lie Peeks.

I implore you, please, please, just turn your evil creation off. I'll behave. I won't tell CDT to go fuck himself anymore, I won't make fun of Browns fans for being morons, none of it. It's not worth it.

I've spent my life in analysis, from legal to financial to real estate, to combinations of them all and this creation of yours, this Prosecutor, it violates every inherent analytical fiber of the human mind. I don't think you know how dangerous it really is.

Last edited by e0y2e3 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I worked at McDonalds and I can tell you his analysis blows. I have seen McD life'ers with more adroit analysis.

How in all that is simple observation not understand that being able to finish AND hit a 15 foot jumper is more beneficial than being a 30% near the rim which includes mostly made dunks? I fucking managed boderline retards that could do some hack work for about 3-4 hours every couple days, but would I ever compare/extrapolate them to the guy who could rock 8 hours 5 days 52 weeks and make field decisions without constantly ringing me in the middle of presentations? FUCKING FUCK FUCK FUCK! Is a dunk less then a 15 footer???? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I finally had the patience to read the remainder of that post, but I just can't, just can't stomach answering such drivel.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

OldDawg wrote:I have told eye in another thread that I am not following the Cavs closely this year...

Two words:JonasValanciunas

Sorry...I am still upset. I hope I am wrong in the long run.Ping pong balls. My kingdom for ping pong balls.

This is light years of stupid beyond a simple TT v Vala debate. I'll speak for e0 here, if the TT analysis was just bullsih there wouldn't be this pushback, but for the love of GOD this is worse then being in a bar full of drunk Cleveland Browns fans discussing the merits of Colt McCoy. It is a level of retarded I cannot find the proper words for...

The temps I worked with at Levin Furniture had better analytical skills. I'm running out of ignorant people that are much more intelligent than PROS.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Me posting an example of Al Horford's distance breakdowns (in terms of FG%) somehow resulted in 2000K words and me being informed that TT is the same prospect as Horford and that he has higher offensive offensive upside then Rodman.