A Win for India as Italian Marines Return to Stand Trial

Italian marines Salvatore Girone, left, and Massimiliano Latorre arrive at an airport near Rome on Dec. 22, 2012. India allowed the two men, accused of shooting Indian fishermen while guarding an oil tanker, to return home for Christmas

India won a diplomatic coup on Friday as two Italian marines returned to India to stand trial for allegedly shooting two fishermen off the coast of Kerala last winter. The incident, in which the marines, hired as private security to an Italian oil tanker, say they mistook the men to be pirates, has been the source of escalating tension between the two nations for the past year but came to a head last week, when the marines returned for what was slated to be a temporary visit to Italy but Rome said they would not be going back.

On Thursday, the Italian government finally agreed to send them back after gaining the assurance from New Delhi that they would not face the death penalty. It ended a dicey few weeks for the Congress-led government — and for Indian-Italian ties. The marines, who had been out on bail in India awaiting trial, have come and gone before since their arrest last year, when India allowed them to go home for Christmas. When India’s Supreme Court allowed them to return home again to vote in their country’s elections last month, the Italian ambassador to India, Daniele Mancini, acted as a guarantor in the High Court that they would go back by March 22. When Rome decided that they were not to be returned and Mr. Mancini informed the court as such, India’s High Court put a ban on his leaving the country, alerting airports to look out for him, and denied his appeal for diplomatic immunity.

The move did not go down well in Italy nor in India, where the opposition took the opportunity to lambast the government for allowing them to leave in the first place. But Congress leaders stood their ground. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh issued a stern warning saying that any attempt by Rome to obstruct India’s legal process by not returning the marines would “violate every rule of diplomatic discourse and call into question solemn commitments given by accredited representatives of a sovereign government to our Supreme Court … If they do not keep their word, there will be consequences for our relations with Italy.” Congress Party leader Sonia Gandhi too came out strongly against Italy, where she was born and raised, saying no nation should take India for granted.

Rome’s agreement to return the marines on Thursday sparked outcries in Italy, where some have said that the government, reeling from the European financial crisis, was unwilling to alienate a trade partner. The row between the two nations began last year after the shooting on Feb. 15, 2012, when the governments disagreed where the marines should be tried. Italy has maintained that the shooting took place in international waters, where, if there is a crime, the accused are supposed to be tried in the country the vessel is flagged in. India, however, has insisted the shooting took place in a special economic zone, and the men should therefore be tried in India.

Many in India have applauded Congress leadership for the marines’ return, giving the embattled ruling party a small but palpable boost as it gets ready for national elections slated for next year.

@shama If a fisherman points is boat at high speed towards a big cargo ship to deviate its route and save his net in waters infested by pirates that can easily be mistaken for an attack. And if there are international agreements to have marines on board of these ships it is only because India and other countries like Somalia are unable to keep their sea safe. There are also precise rules of engagement and everybody at sea should be aware of these rules. A warning was certainly given before opening fire. Italian soldiers don't go around the world shooting at innocent people for no reason. If the fishermen were not informed or they simply thought that saving their nets was more important then there was negligence on their part as well as indian authorities. Those soldiers simply followed instructions in a really dangerous environment. That has nothing to do with racism, colonialism or anything of that sort. The Italian Government should refund the families of the deceased and that was already done as fa as I am concerned, a symbolic very short prison sentence could also be issued and everybody should be happy with that. If you all care so much about the lives of those fishermen why do you let thousands of people starve to death in the streets of India every day? It seems to me that human lives are valued less than cows in your country except when it comes to foreign citizens when you can make it a matter of principle so that your politicians can keep fooling the public opinion boasting their firmness in front of a western nation. It's just dirt.

A country that still has death penalty should not have the right to judge citizens of another state, the more so if these citizens are soldiers sent over to protect indian trade routes from pirates. Death penalty? Pirates? Holy cows? What the hell is this? You Indians are still in the 18th century! At least stop your really annoying, pathetic laments about racism of the white men.

The report A Win for India as Italian Marines Return to Stand Trial, is highly misleading. Many people have felt that getting back the marines was a deal between the governments of India and Italy. Read my following columns in the DNA:

Who's jurisdiction is it, where they should be tried , under what laws - national and international , remains to be resolved through appropriate legal proceedings . The Italian marines will be given all legal help and they can appeal to international courts for the same if they are unhappy with the proceedings. But i'm amazed at the reactions in Italy - such double standards - what makes them decide that lives of their marines is in any way more valuable than those of the two fisher men ? - because they are poor and belong to a developing country? And that country cannot be relied upon and the laws of that country need not be respected- such hypocrisy and disgusting racism. I would have understood still if this hue and cry had come after Indian courts had pronounced a ruling or a verdict - whether on the question of adjudication or the sentence to be given which was deemed unacceptable to Italian citizens .

I just dont understand what this hue and cry is about. If this incident
had happened in the reverse, i.e Indian Marines had by chance shot
italian fishermen, they would never have seen the light of the day
again. Forget about them being returned to India to be tried by Indian courts.

So basically it is that a white man, and someone as exalted as a marine cannot be tried at par with any other colored man in a developing country for he is above their laws and his life is above those of poor fishermen. To the extent that Italians are ready to go back on their words, never mind that they pride themselves on that , to save themselves from such an eventuality.

Have you even given Indian courts and Indian laws a chance yet ? There has been no death penalty for more than decade except in very few cases, rarest of rare crimes . No Indian court would give them death penalty for accidental shooting , if so established . BUt whatever else, those marines are certainly not heroes for us , and niether are the lives of those fishermen ,any less valuable for us . If the marines are responsible for a criminal act commited when they were on duty due to negligence at the very least, they ought to be punished for the same

- If Death Penalty has never been a deterant Then why did you shoot Indian Fishermens and had given them death penalty ?- I Fully Agree with you that your foreign minister is also a cosmic idiot like you peoples in italy.- India never asked Italy to protect its shipping routes , we do not believe italy(cosmic idiot) have such potential.- Case is prejudice and don't jump the gun and give the verdict for yourself you shylock- On what primafacei evidence you are telling indian authorities subtracted,divided,multiplied,added or exponent of evidence ?- Yes its true only terrorist countries and its people will kill innocent unarmed fishermens, thats absolutely fair Mr.cosmic idiot- You call rapes in different names such as dating,Brothel,porn videos etc , Animals does'nt rape,it happens only in humanitarian culture when restrictionsand regulations imposed on man kind.It is something dicussed inside culture you don't understand it either. Rapists never gets convicted bcz ruler is from italy!!!- All creatures in this world are holy ? Will you disagree ? Ask your Pope !!!- I'm not surprised either!!!

Its a twin Win for Italy Helicopter deal and killer mariners loop hole escape deal !!! I believe this story writer will be very well aware of the happenings in future in these deals !!! I Cherish and remember those days ,once upon a time in India there was a king who killed his own son in the same way his son killed a calf accidently while travelling in a chariot ( Manu Needhi Cholan ) , Nomad Italians would be hunting some pigs in the forest during that contemporary period!!! Now it is a curse that we are ruled by Italy!!!

I dont think it is a win of India. Its plan to cheat Indian people, indian leaders already promised that they wont get death penalty, that is only imprisonment. According to the contract between Indian and Italy the marines have to go for imprisonment in Italy. Who will believe they will be in Prison in Italy? its cheating of poor Indian people by Indian politicians, they already proved that how they can over come suprime count. When the Italy denied to send them back to India, stright away Indian leaders was planning to expel the high commission which was blocked by suprime court. But in all means Politicians of India cheated Indians

@PalbrizI am just posting this in all the forums that mention india's death penalty. India since it's independence has put 52 people to death. now compare this to the 242 people put to death between the years 2000-2009 in the stte of Texas alone before talking about India's backwardness please. For god sake two of the people who assassinated an Indian Prrime Minister are still alive and kicking.

@Palbriz Who are U to decide that Death Penalty is barbaric. Who r U to dicate to India to abolish death penalty. The hell with Ur respect, who cares. Itching to disrespect others U show Ur real mean mentality.

@mohantry Your brain must be the size of a peanut, I can't even understand what you are writing. IYou should learn English before you take part in this discussion. But even if you did speak English you would not be worth of my reply because you are too obtuse.

@Palbriz And about the Death Penalty, U can't blame India. It's the choice of the people of India and thereby the Govt will decide on this.

Lately death sentence has been given only to those involved in serious terrorist activities. It might seem barbaric to U, but it's a serious issue and requires a lot of discussion before deciding on getting rid of the Capital Punishment. Till then in any of the cases, Indian Courts are entitled to pronounce Death Sentence, if it's felt that the crime is particularly heinous and such sentence can be pronounced.

@Palbriz I'm NOT discussing the facts of the case. Studying all the facts of the case and then referring to the international rules which govern cases like these are all a part of the investigation and then it's for the court to decide on the degree of offense and punishment.

There are a couple of troubling points for the general public.. The questions are being raised by the opposition and media about.

What we know is ...

The case was originally under the Indian court.

Italy agreed that they'll send back the guys

They faltered

Finally for some reason the guys were sent back to India. Now the two marines are in India.

Indians perceive them as murderers and Italians are reportedly perceiving them as Heroes.

What is troubling is ...

There's a difference between the statements being made by the Italian Govt and the Indain Govt, about a) Death Penalty, b) Where the guys will be staying.

I made a point saying that it's better if both the Govts make a joint-press statement about the issue so that things are crystal clear to the people of both the countries.

We can know the facts what are told in the media about the case. So, I think it's the duty of both the Govts to clarify this ambiguity about the case.

Second question which is being raised is that whether Indian Govt did sign any treaty or not. And if so, is it entitled to do so, when the case is already pending for trial in the Indian Court.

Having said these things, Urself talking like all the girls of 13 are married to 50 year old men is absolutely uncalled for. Such generalization is gross.

Let's get history out of the way first. Manu Needhi Cholan was a king who lived approx around 235BC. The Roman Empire in Italy, particularly Rome itself, emerged around 350BC. That itself should give you some sense of time. And I don't think you want to call the Romans nomads. They were perfectly civilised although some of their practices would seem crude to the modern mind.

Manu Needhi Cholan is said to have stood for justice - an even justice towards friend and foe - which is why he is still respected. Given his ideals, you have to atleast afford the Italian marines a proper trial without sullying the name of their illustrious country. One may need to earn respect, but don't be too hasty in meting out justice to entire nations and nationalities. Indians have to learn to look beyond nationality, religion, language and all the natural biases that they have inherited from their past. It is the only way to move into an inevitably more global future.

@Palbriz It is easy to talk of Death Penalty being barbaric when U are not suffering Cross-Border Terrorism. It's easy to talk of Death Penalty when there are no serial blasts happening day in and day out in every city and town of the country.

Even then Death Penalty is given only when serious acts of Terrorism are involved, in rarest of rare cases.

@232franco Why don't U deliberate to be the lawyer of the Italian Marines and present these facts to the court?

And suggesting that the two might not be fishermen is cruel. Besides, I don't get what U want to suggest. What could they be possibly, if they weren't fishermen? And Italian Marines killed Indians is a fact, that even themselves they are not denying.

The death penalty is only executed in the rarest-of-rare cases in
India. After one hanging in 2004, the next one was in 2012 after a gap
of 8 years. Of course there was one in 2013 as well but that was for the parliament attack. Hangings are rarely
carried out and sentences are generally commuted after appeals to life
sentences. This is the way of a civilised society and yes, murderers and
rapists are not hanged although it might seem that they are punished
severely. It is a fact we have to live with.

For the record here, a country is considered more civilised and developed if the people of the country reject the death penalty. Not the other way around.

So what difference does it make if India promises they will not hang the marines? No difference at all.

As
far as cheating goes, it seems far fetched. If they were cheating the
Indian people, they would not have managed to win this diplomatic
victory and get the marines back to stand trial. What are you on about?

@HarinyaFinch@Palbriz And if I may add, if India seems uncivilized and backward to these guys because we didn't abolish Death Penalty, wonder what name should be given to attacking and bombing every other country and killing people in tons.

@Palbriz
look who is talking about civility...the land of Mussolini and likes of
barbaric dictators, who washed millions of innocent lives from the face of
earth - through innovative ways, gas showers, torture camps etc...lool living
in a dream world...u moronic Italians....in 20 years from now, u shld be
grateful, if u still exist as a country with any economic value!!!

@NandaKishoreN ur arguments seem too light and tolerant, to these savages who brought in the biggest wars on earth!!! who's talking about civility, here???

@NandaKishoreN@PalbrizIsa murderesswho killsa personwith malice aforethought.I do not thinkthis is the case.A herois someone whosaves a personrisking his own life.I do not thinkthis is the case.The Marinesand the fishermendid not know, soit's justan unfortunate accident.There remains only thecertainty thattheGPSsignals theshipto 33.2nautical milesfrom the coast.If Italy, appealing to theInternational CriminalCourtUN, Indiawill bea foolformultiple violationssubscribed1)Montego Bay Convention, 2)the Vienna Convention andthe Convention on theLaw of the Sea, not to mentionthat he hadcausedsignificant damageof the ship, operating thereturn to portwithartifice anddeception.If you are notable toeradicatepiracy andensure the safetyof the seain front of theircoasts,you can not doa tug of warwith those who seekyoucover thisvacuumof law, especiallyinviolation of international law.Processthe twomarinesin Indiais illegal, as they areunder the jurisdiction ofthe Italian criminal.

@dkumar217I accept that Poor Communication Skills is not a good thing. But that doesn't mean whatever a person is trying to say can't be altogether understood or the person can't altogether be believed. @cmfailte has got valid points to make.

If Italy has got any case agains India, let them appeal. Y, are they doing some sort of favour to India.

The fact is that Italy knows that their Marines have committed the crime.

Now, U don't try to make it sound like India has done something illegal by arresting the Italian Marines. What do U expect? They'll be given red-carpet welcome and VIP treatment for what they've done? That'll be rather funny.

And the way U sound is that the ITALIAN Marines would have NEVER EVER done anything illegal. For Ur kind information, even Italian Govt didn't deny the fact that those two marines have done the mistake of shooting.

Now the question before the court is to verify all the facts and find out how far these two can be punished and as per which law and many other legalities.

So, I hardly think all these things what U are listing actually make any sense when the case is already in the court.

Only MORONs could stoop down to the level of suggesting that those poor fishermen could be pirates.

@NandaKishoreN@dkumar217Yawn.... Here comes another paragraph of boring verbal diarrhea. You are a man devoid of any meaningful work and having ample time to bore others. You have absolutely no knowledge of how international diplomacy works and your only job is to rant and blame others. Your responses are devoid of any logic and one can laugh on the idiocity of your posts.but no the so called satire as they are devoid of any humor. You say you are making 2 points but actually make 5. You first apologise and then turnaround by saying that u did not. Who is asking for you give any importance to me .You become the self proclaim jethmalani of cmflaite but can hardly justify your own views. You may call yourself as the Almighty Knowledge bearer of the world but its not necessary that the ordinary souls like us would agree with you.On the contrary we might just show your stupidity which is bigger than the size of an elephant to you. You make hell lot of arguments over the so called locus standi of Indian govt. on the matter which is subjudice but do you have any explanation why the same govt. gave assurance on an convicted criminal ? You can make as many idiotic post on an online forums but its not necessary that everyone will ignore you. Since you have already apologized for the reason known , there is no point of continuing any further discussion with you. Make as many responses to this post but this is my last my last reply on this matter. Oh god save me, I am debating with a fool who has the power to take me to his level !

@NandaKishoreN@dkumar217@cmfailte Looks like i have stepped on your toes. Before commenting on the length of my response, please do revisit your own comments here . You need not tell me what I need to do just like I didn't ask you to curtail your responses. You need to reeducate yourself before declaring world as democratic place but thats another debate. Now coming to the point, the whole focal point of yours is farce and is devoid of any logic. even if India has given assurance to Italy, even then its a non issue. The hoopla that your creating over the so called deal is not something which has been practiced first time by the Indian Govt. Remember Abu Salem, who was proven guilty of 1993 Bomb Blast and yet has not been awarded death sentence because of the assurance given to Portuguese Govt. From Italy perspective, they have every right to negotiate the well being of their citizen just like Indian govt. has every right to prosecute them under Indian constitution. If a verbal assurance by Indian govt. allays the fears of Italian Govt. then this should be pursued (n thats what the govt did). Sure, the investigation is pending but charges has been finalized although not submitted and those charges do not call for death penalty. Your are right, I need to bear with you and thats what I was doing but I guess my responses spoiled your day and mood but nevertheless I accept your apology for now and future as I am pretty sure you would respond with another spicy conspiracy theory.

@NandaKishoreN@dkumar217@cmfailte Poor communication skills = difficulty in precisely what the person wants to convey = difficult to understand what he means = less likely to convince others. If you do not agree with the above then there is no point of further explanation. And regarding the dodgy points he is trying to make, that is for the viewers to decide. All I am saying is whatever his point of view is, he needs to put it across in a manner which can be understood by the viewers without any ambiguity. At the same time I do have some reservation with his views. I am not sure why ppl have such fixation with death penalty. The crime that these marines did will not warrant any death penalty even if the strictest of law under IPC is implemented. So, I am not sure why ppl like u and him are glamorizing death penalty when no such scenario will ever arise in this case? Indian govt. doesn't need to do any deal with Italian govt. in order to assure Rome that death penalty would not be handed over to these marines.