110: With Julie Ann Horvath

This week we were joined by Julie Ann Horvath, designer and developer for &yet. Julie has recently been the subject of tech news headlines because of her public resignation from her previous employer (Github) due to sexism and harassment. It’s a heavy and traumatic topic, but we’re thankful to Julie for sharing her experience so we can grow as a community and prevent these types of unfortunate events in the future.

Note: Within minutes of wrapping this episode, Brendan Eich stepped down as CEO.

Q & A:

38:09 Do you have any advice on where to look for jobs where an experienced front-end developer could learn from their co-workers and be challenged?

46:52 Since there are a lot of web development languages to learn and many developers know the usual HTML, CSS and Javascript. Which language would you say is a niche market to learn for hire?

50:48 I feel like I may have too much on my plate for the year: should I ask my team for more help?

Sponsors:

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There’s over 100 episodes, have you listened to all of them? I just feel this IS a serious issue and dedicating an episode was entirely worth it!

Nikota

It is an important issue for her I am sure, but as far as I can see there is no industry wide civil rights issues going on here. Is GitHub going to get an hour to give their side of the story?

Guest

It seems to me that being harassed is the best thing that could have happened to this person. She obtained a soap box for which to push an agenda. And is pushing it. Podcast about front end design/dev != Podcast about sexism. Typically love the show, this one was very difficult to listen to.

chriscoyier

I’m sad that’s how you think. Something awful happens to someone, they have the courage to end it and talk about it at a great personal cost, and you think it’s because of “an agenda”?

Totally disagree with “guest”. Talking about work place conduct and the “tribalism” is someting to address. Very surprising to hear from the tech world, but these things do occur. lets not be naive.
Love the show, the drama, and the guests. Keeps me productive while working.

This was really great! Can’t shine too big a light on idiots like the ones Julie had to deal with.

Mike McBrien

I would like to echo some other comment’s. I thought this was a show about front-end and sound effects not politics and rights issues. It was VERY difficult to listen to this one.

Patrick Sweeney

If it was every episode, I’d agree. But this is an important enough issue to divert from the norm.

Mike McBrien

I know my response will be unpopular, and I am not trying stir the pot….

The segment on Eich and the language used is very strong, and I feel also gave Julie less credibility.

In Julie’s own words (~31:30) she said “I don’t go out of my way to tell them they are wrong, because it’s not my place” which was referring to Eich and others religious views who are against gay marriage.

But by her own words, she is being completely hypocritical as she is saying Eich is wrong. During the first half of the podcast for 20+ minutes Julie explained how her rights in the workplace were unfair then she completely blew away Eich’s right to his opinion and encouraging others to do the same.

🙁

Patrick Sweeney

Agree on that count – Eich, as backward as his opinion may be, has every right to feel the way he does. The general consensus may be he is in the wrong, but he is completely entitled to his own opinion.

People are sexist for asking her to be professional on stage and not curse. You should be able to get your point across without cursing, especially in an environment like that. Frankly, when I heard the F word and the “boner” word during this podcast she lost an incredible amount of credibility to me in the first place.

Harassment happens every day. It’s certainly not right and does not belong anywhere, especially the work place. But this person seems to have some deeper issues than just what the GitHub incident has brought out.

This is a podcast called shop talk. Not a commercial company. I’ve heard countless industry leaders swear during seminars and presentations.

If you’re offended by the words “Fuck” and “Boner” perhaps YOU “have some deeper issues” with casual conversation.

donniemiller

Sorry, but did you read the article I referenced? Has nothing to do with Shop Talk. The people at the conference asked her not to swear and she took it as an assault.

I can handle those words. They have a time and place. When you’re trying to make points about such a sensitive topic I would think that those words could be left out. I wouldn’t consider it “casual conversation” when you’re advocating something and want to be taken seriously.

Ohhh, gotcha, I got mixed up. Yeah, if it’s a “clean” event then absolutely avoid profanity. I thought you meant in this pretty casual podcast. I see your points now

stevenmorgan94

I agree there this was mostly drama and no front-end talk, but there are 109 other episodes dedicated to that. I think it was a beneficial topic that shed some light on to HR and other employee issues at smaller start-ups that go unaddressed.

It’s disheartening that in a one hour episode, the only profanity not edited out was ‘Jesus Christ’. I understand that some don’t see this as a profane word, but it is to those who are followers of Christ. I’m not looking to start an argument, but simply wanted to express my concern. I love the show and voted for you guys in the NET Awards. Cheers.

Now it would be great if you’d be able to get other side of the argument.

Is it possible?

If all of it happened exactly as she said it happened, then I’d totally agree with her position about this issue.

Mostly, I was bothered by the tribalism talk and the whole `white guys VS …`theme. I understand that I am a white guy in a tech company and it’s very hard for me to get her point against tribalism. I can say only from my perspective that I’ve never seen any problem of such kind in the tech companies that I’ve been working for. Moreover, I’ve worked for the web shop which was founded by a wonderful and strong woman. and it was one of the best experiences in my work-related life. I didn’t notice any misogyny towards her, because she was/is a professional and it’s the most important thing in the work context.