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4500 Flatline Update (pics)

All,

Cphilip posted a desperate plea for the 4500 systems so here is an update. We were having problems with about 15% of the systems deforming the reg seat under pressure. Here is what they looked like at two extremes.

Can you see the difference? We sure can. The fix is to modify the design to make the seat deform in a controlled way to make sure it keeps the shape we want. This takes several tries to get it right. NOW WE COULD HAVE shipped them out to YOU and had our customers test the different configurations and just update you later but that's not our style.

We tested several different designs and think the one we tesed today will work the best. Here is a new seat next to a used seat, you can see they look almost the same size. This was only ONE test system.

Now the question is, do we test ANOTHER batch of 20 units and see if we get failures? There are two ways to look at this, first since the failure rate was only about 15% anyways ANY improvement would most likely mean they would work acceptably, go ahead and ship a big batch to customers. The other side of the coin, since you changed the design you may not know ANYTHING about what will happen, you should start the testing from scratch to be SURE. So I ask you my loyal customers, what would YOU do if you were me? Remember Christmas is coming up.

Tom, I greatly appreciate your candor and thank you for putting out all this information. I, for one, would rather you continue testing, in order that you put out a product that is not only up to your standards but also will set a new standard in performance.

I know I am one of those people who are chomping at the bit to purchase the new 4500psi Flatline, but I would rather wait than buy a product that the manufacturer is not very sure of. Do not give in to the pressure of the consumers and put out an unfinished product. Complete the testing and put out a product that will take a beating and keep on ticking. After all "Quality Always Shoots Straight."

Last thing, actually it is more of a request. When you bring the 4500psi Flatline into full production, I was wondering if I might be able to buy the reg straight from you guys. I would love to be one of the first to own what I know will be a great product.

I must agree...

I've used your guns almost since I first started plaing, and have often been asked, "why go with 'a tube on a handle'"? My only answer can be "Because I know that when I screw in the bottle, that it will work." It would be very bad for you guys to release a product to the public without being 110% sure of the quality of that product.

I agree with everyone else. Continue testing until it works like it was intended to. Better to have the product as flawless as possible, so your workbenches don't get filled up with people needing the conversion to Flatline 4500 v2.0.

Anyways, I thought you wanted us all to dream about dancing sugarplums and E-Mags for Christmas!

Tom, I certainly agree with getting it right. But I was hoping we were close. If I wait a few weeks do you think it would be rectified? I guess I could see if I could borrow a tank for a bit. How did I let myself get into this situation?

I would be willing to wait just a bit if I knew it was close. But I need a tank. Fairly soon. But my problem not yours...

Tom you guys are known for excellent craftmanship and I would really hate it if you guys put out a substandard product. Test the ______ out of it. When you feel that it works the way it should then release it. We can wait until after Christmas for it if we have too.

Tom,

Would it cost a lot to ship replacement Reg Seals after a shipment?

I suspect that It'd be worth your while to ship a load of regs with the current seals, and then, if your testing discovers a better, longer lasting seal, just send each customer a few seals thru the mail.

That way, you get your product out before christmas, customers get their new toys, and you still live up to your customer care and reliability reputation.

After sleeping on it (and watching a lot of MSNBC...) I came to a similar conclusion as Jan.

Here is what I was thinking Tom...

1) Is 15% distortion rate acceptable? Well depends...Is that a normal failure rate on any other tanks? I suspect not as you seem to imply it is unacceptable.

B) Does this distortion actualy cause any performance problems? I suspect it might as you seem to be concerned about it.

III) Is this a Safety problem? I suspect not as you imply you "Could" ship them out. And I doubt you would even mention it if you thought they were unsafe.

4) How hard is it to change these seals and does Jans suggestion to ship some extra's with then make sense to you?

I for one would never be afraid to take one of these with the newer seal right now as I am certain you would stand behind it like you have all of your other products. However I can surely understand if you chose to wait until seals distortion proves to be at a much lower failure rate as the cost of replacing too many of these eats into profit. And we all want you to suceed and stay in business so that would be reason enough to delay. I would be willing to take a chance on one of these newer seals right now though because I am in a situation where I need a tank immediately and don't expect to be buying another one for a few years.

Tom - I am pretty sure I sound like a big retard asking this- but the Raptor (Air Americas nitro reg) has a version for 4500 psi (Raptor Rex). Now - granted I havent taken a flatline apart - but looking at these pics they look similar to the raptor reg seats. What materials are they using in the Raptor Rex? If it is the same, are they having the same problems and not telling any one? If they arent having that problem - is their anything from the design that could be barrowed for the flatline or to help rectify the problem.

Again - I am talking with only a child like understanding - but I guess my main question is if its mainly a materials issue - could a similar reg using a similar material hold the answer?

On one more note - I want to keep encouraging AGD to work on the FLATLINE. I know that they have been working on this problem on and off since Ocotober last year. I simply LOVE my two Flatline systems, find them light, compact, durable, easy to adjust, reliable, and has the BEST on/off of any reg available. Simply put - its a kick butt reg. I know AGD has invested a ton of time/energy/money in the 4500 systems. I for one want one for my back. I use an 88cui tank for my emag durning longer games and it gets to be too much towards the end of the day. A 68 4500 would rock my world.

So when the 8th cup of coffee is wearing off - just remember we are all pulling for you.

i may sound cruel in this but if you dont have everyone perfect by the end of october send em out for the xmas season i mean looking at it finacially here you gotta see a big sales boost around then and after xmas but say you dont get it fixed until next year youve lost a market edge and what on earth would make someone wanna buy this tank and reg when they can get the super electro mega reg /ultra 5 hydro tank for 100 bucks more?plus you guys have great custome service and if it breaks they know where to send it

Tom - Heres what I'm looking at. The Airgun name is already a tarnished name in the field of pro players, everyone is going electro and cocker. Remembering that the majority of 4500 sales is from the tourniment players, since most fields dont even give 4500 fills unless at a tourniment (and some dont even then). Now, if the big time tourniment players decide to get an AGD flatline, and it happens to be one of the say 1-15% (depending how much the fix worked, but there is always some manufacturing defect for that 1%), then that gives AGD an even more tarnished name as that player spreads the rumor of the 'crappy 4500 AGD tanks'. With the internet's large groups like at PBC, rumors spread fast.

Now, on the other hand, with production time and everything, HOPEFULLY if you were to ok it today, the systems could be out and stocked in stores by early december for the big buying season. Waiting another 3+ weeks to do more tests and such, then going into production and all that, how likely is it that they'll be out in time for christmas?

Now, after that information, its up to you, there are other factors also that I'm sure you realize. Personally, it seems like an easy fix, something along the lines of the early warps with the plastic then brass gear. I'd say run the shipment now, get them out and big, throw an add in APG or PGI or something for them, sell a bunch for christmas, and include a warrenty card or something like that with them, so incase there is a problem then its an easy fix and convienent for the customer.

We all know you guys have great customer service, if its a small update you think you may have to do, its all your decision, but personally I'd rather you guys get them out. We dont want something like the Zgrip incident to happen to 4500 flatlines.

Keep working on them, but sell me one in Nov when I come out I'll take a reject as long as it's just a reg seat that needs chaged every so often Or is this something that happens right away when you fill the tank for the first time.

The guys that have them for testing have been slow to send them back for the update. So far the updated ones are fine but we don't have enough data to know for sure. WC, the SFL's, plastic nubbins and Superbolts have been taking all our time. Look for another update in a couple weeks.