Sterilization might argue for a better long-term solution rather than culling the undesirables. One gets to choose how they live, as should be anyone's right.

But depending upon which path they choose, they may also lose the right to propagate. Same with those with physical and severe mental deformities. Letting two autistic people have children only further increases the likelihood of autism occurring in their children, their grandchildren, and so on. Sterilization also would prevent the actual murder of the undesirables, since they would not be born in the first place. Everyone could sleep at night with a soothed conscience!

But selective breeding is a very un-PC topic, with opponents crying "Hitler! Hitler!" at the mere mention of eugenics. Despite the fact that people already do this when selecting the gender and/or physical characteristics of their child, or aborting fetuses that have crippling diseases or deformities.

Eugenics is a much more humane method of pruning the human race. It would just take a little longer to accomplish the goal in comparison to immediate culling.

Sterilization as a form of culling I can get on board with. There was a time when it was impractical because people didn't know which characteristics were acquired and which ones were genetic. But now that we have a pretty good handle on what genes are responsible for, it's practical to sterilize certain people.

It can be as simple as being "generous" enough to let the pregnant idiot have another line. If she accepts it, she's already confirmed that it's probably the best thing she could do for her unborn child anyway.

Sterilization is also a lot easier to slip under the radar than murder. If there's a body, or even a missing person, there's a case. If a pregnant woman gets listeria or a post pubescent male gets mumps, it's considered shitty luck, not a criminal case.

With the demystification of the human genome, it could well be that we're closer than ever to being able to create the brave new world that Eugenics has long hinted at, but required imperfect science and guesswork to implement. "Culling" the inherently inferior traits with sterilization and perhaps even accentuating the positive with gene splicing and/or genome resequencing might give us more of an evolutionary boost than Eugenicists ever dreamed.

The perfect masters and the perfect slaves, perfect heroes and perfect knaves. No longer left to the whims of the gods. A brave vision, but the problems is, our current imperfections as humans and our acceptable and culturally coddled vices turned virtues, not to even mention delusions of disembodied "intelligent designers," could well handcuff us for another millennia or two... or forever. Freeing man of his addictions... to drugs, to wasted emotion, to unproductivity might unleash the promethean spirit in mankind, or simply make him more susceptible to the failures or ego.

Some people are just irresponsible twats with no respect for themselves or others. If they start to pollute your neighborhood, there aren't many options.

Just to add more controversy to this controversy, NS Germany had a reasonable solution to this sort of social problem

You organize society so that it's run by an elite - no mundane democracy, or rather no pretence at mundane democracy - so that your citizens are productive, responsible; and those that aren't get shipped off to camps, or put into the army, or build things, like roads.

Or, less controversial, think Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The book, not the film.

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Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

For arguments sake, lets say that Germany actually did have a problem and that Hitler had the answer.

Hitler ended up sinking his boat.

Since it is the final result that counts, let’s take a look.

Because of his actions:

The people he tried to exterminate (cull), were given a nation of their own by the world powers, and we are all paying for that action. It played a big part in us losing most of our civil liberties because it drew us into that shit hole part of the world to protect that new nation.

In some parts of the world, including Hitler’s Germany, if you even dare to openly question the numbers of the people culled (some say that the ovens that existed at the time, couldn’t have destroyed as many individuals as is generally accepted), you will likely be arrested and put in jail.

Although during World War I, Hitler was a war hero, and later proved himself as a competent strategist in politics and manipulation, history often portrays him as an incompetent, syphilis infected, deranged, lunatic. His positive achievements prior to WWII are very rarely mentioned.

If anyone did mention any of his positive achievements, they would automatically be labeled as an anti-Semite and a Nazi.

So he may have had and idea for the solution to what he considered as a problem, but he did eventually fail in carrying his plans out.

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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

For arguments sake, lets say that Germany actually did have a problem and that Hitler had the answer.

Well actually there WAS a problem. Germany was facing with the consequences and punishments given by the other countries after WW2. It was in a major economical low-level. Hitler managed to come up with an idea which was very protectionist in nature.

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So he may have had and idea for the solution to what he considered as a problem, but he did eventually fail in carrying his plans out.

His plans were carried out perfect thanks to a well-thought out system. If he had carried out his plans and only limited it within the borders of Germany, everything would have stayed more or less ok. It's only because Hitler wanted to broaden the German territory things went from bad to worse (keeping in mind the political situation and stress after WW 1).

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Although during World War I, Hitler was a war hero, and later proved himself as a competent strategist in politics and manipulation, history often portrays him as an incompetent, syphilis infected, deranged, lunatic. His positive achievements prior to WWII are very rarely mentioned.

True, despite him being portrayed as the most evil dictator on the surface of the world ever been he was a political and organizational genius. His live speeches until recent day are still considered to be the top of the top. The fierceness how he spoke, the power and accentuation and choice of his words were simply perfect. No other political leader after him ever managed to do the same.

It should also be mentioned he had very capable people around him. Not to say the highest concentration of strategics was in Germany if we were to consider them from country to country. It is also said Germany lost WW2 due to Hitler not listening to sane advice from his generals and that if he had listened history might be VERY different.

On the culling: The german system during WW2 was a quite succesful one. It indeed served the purpose in cleansing out the "mudanes" from society (if they didn't match up with the NS ideals at least..) or in putting them to work at places where they were harmless/barely posed a traid (would be for people who did match up towards NS-ideals/standards but simply didn't agree).

The culling as it once happened during that period is almost impossible at the moment UNLESS by "democratic" means a rise to power or guerillia tactics are being implemented. The democratic approach is already a no-can-do for the reason of egoism and time-consumption it takes. Also the lack of a problem which can be settled is a reason. The guerillia tactics are more possible on the condition you can manage a group of people who can operate for the ideals, know the ideals and are not afraid to make their hands dirty. A problem here would be the possible scare effect on which potential can be lost.

For arguments sake, lets say that Germany actually did have a problem and that Hitler had the answer.

Hitler ended up sinking his boat.

Since it is the final result that counts...

Not sure I agree with the logic here. I think there is, in your argument, the underlying assumption that Hitler was NS, therefore because the human being called Hitler made mistakes (which of course he did since he lost the war) then NS is fundamentally flawed.

So the question is - was (or is) NS an ideology in its own right, or was NS just an expression of Hitler's personality?

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Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

I find this discussion both tiresome and tedious; in fact bordering on outright disgusting.

Playing with good ole' Adolf and his chum Rosenberg now,are we?

A bunch of "Satanists" advocating purity of mankind? Snipping off the weak branches? Smothering the puppy with low aggression level?Killing off "the others"?

I am impressed...

Whether the ONA actually propagates rinsing after shampooing,or considers "culling" a mere philosophical idea is of course unclear (as I suspect it is bloody meant to be).

So we are either considering taking steps back to the ideology that preceded NSDAP (which is stupid & vulgar), or considering the act of personal and individual murder (and hopefully getting away with it) a character building experience.

As usual; philosophy is mesmerizing...What I see; is yet another vessel built to ship the weak into a state of imaginary supremacy.And I am well and truly disgusted...

Let me use this opportunity to (yet again) direct your attention to what I see as the undoubtedly most "Satanic" of reigns on planet earth; namely Communist China...

Chinese Culling coming up:

Firstly: the one child policy is deeply sensible.Over-breeding is a global problem, hopefully all are able to see that (says the father of four)?

Secondly: there is no welfare system in Communist China.That is to say; welfare lies within the family, as children are expected to take care of their retired parents.

Thirdly: this makes parenthood an act of self-interest.Of course; parenting is a well established system of human survival. But in this case, giving birth to 8-10 kids in the certain hope that at least 2-3 of them will survive to keep you fed in your old age, simply will not do.One kid it is...

Fourth: this again makes it in your interest to put your offspring under considerable pressure, in order to fulfil it's potential as a human being (and citizen of the peoples republic blah blah).Basic education is of course free for all, but higher education is extremely difficult to qualify for.We are not talking "best in class", more like "best in town"...

Fifth: couple this with a more liberal (realistic?) attitude towards capitalism, and you are indeed in business.A culture which rids itself automatically off dead meat (with considerable human suffering involved in the process, should please those of you with blood-thirst on your agenda).Reduces the numbers of their population, whilst raising the "level of quality" of the lucky individuals remaining.

Much sense, not so much sensibility...Might it in fact be well and proper for the introspective Satanist to apply for political asylum in Communist China?Or are we simply to fat and soft to play proper hardball?

I'm removing myself from this thread. I see no value in it anymore, since its about lightbulbs and dick size now.

Well, it's a little hard to have a dialog if you remove yourself from it. The idea here is exchange ideas. Never the less, I do understand how the thread drift can become tedious. But, you must keep in mind that it really is just about sex and death. Since most Satanists gravitate toward the carnal, it only stands to reason that given time, most any conversation will lead here.

All the same, I actually do rather enjoy your posts on ONA. At the very least you have done your homework. I will PM you, perhaps we can finish this here.

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Ask Fist where he gets his information from and what his sources are.

What?! Do you sit down to pee? That was the effeminate passive aggressive thing I have seen in quite a while. Man up, stand your ground and engage in debate. Look, I am 40, your 23. I came to learn of the ONA in the 80's. And you?

By 16 (1986) I was an extraordinarily dangerous 'youth.' I was about 5'10" and 180lbs. I lifted weights, wrestled, has studied Shorin-Ryu Karate, Wing-Chung, and Judo. Up to that point, for most of my life I had to fight nearly every day because I was a white kid living in a mostly black area. By 16 my world view had already been informed by the writings of Ayn Rand, Ragnar Redbeard, Crowley, LaVey, Hitler, Kurt Saxon, Hayek, and the Founding Fathers. When you are big, white and 'talented' there are certain types of people who might try to 'recruit' you. But I was very much and individualist and freethinker. And my biggest problem with the ONA and the Skinhead NF/Blood&Honour/Combat 18 types running around at the time was the B-movie Nazi Bondage Masters+Servants shtick they were into. I bow to no man. None of these guys were so smart, or talented, or fierce that I felt they had any business being in charge of anything.

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Ask Fist and yourself why the ONA's book NAOS even exists. Why it is called the Complete Guide To Adeptship? Why it comes with full instructions for following the Seven Fold Way - the tests, trials, and ordeals, of the ONA Initiation process and grade rituals?

Again, just like the Bible, ONA material survives because people are attracted to it. It is the same for any religion.

Now, the ONA concepts on self-development are very appealing to me. However, in practice they seem a little homo-erotic. Most would be practitioners hardly seem up to the task.

No, my initiation would come latter in 1988 at a place called Disney Barracks in Ft. Knox KY, under the kind tutelage of the DI's of 5/15th United States Cavalry. I would later go to the Ft. Benning School for Boys for further development. LaVey wrote about the sad state of affairs with young men in post-modern society. Ancient societies have manhood rituals to quite actually separate the men form the boys. In the West we have this tedious notion of 'adolescence' which seems to last well into one's 20's.

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Are we also to disregard the early days of the ONA when "Anton Long" and friends distributed ONA material via post to those interested around the world? Should we assume that since Fist says the Originals are gone, that those who became ONA Initiates from getting such MSS via post just so happen to also vanish?

I was living in North Carolina in the late 80's - early 90's. There was an ONA presence there too around that time. But I would argue that it was really becoming more of a Combat 18 presence as time went on. If you google around, you will see that devotes of Anton Long were up to some fairly nasty business in NC around that time. Since almost no one involve with these thing were ever arrested, we can only assume that they have gone on to other things and some may be working on Acausal change.

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How does something that was never organized into a coherent body or organization designed in the beginning to be adopted and adapted by anybody interested with the proper instructions die out because one top person or the "originals" are missing or assumed to be missing? Missing from what? The internet and forums? Ask yourself if Fist knows these people or an Old Guard who can confirm his information he has given.

I know quite a bit about the operation of networks of cells. We have been in a shooting war with such an organization for over 9 years now. Of course, if there is new blood trying to revitalize the network then I would welcome it and say more power to you. Just be careful what you wish for...

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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

With the demystification of the human genome, it could well be that we're closer than ever to being able to create the brave new world that Eugenics has long hinted at, but required imperfect science and guesswork to implement. "Culling" the inherently inferior traits with sterilization and perhaps even accentuating the positive with gene splicing and/or genome resequencing might give us more of an evolutionary boost than Eugenicists ever dreamed.

...A brave vision, but the problems is, our current imperfections as humans and our acceptable and culturally coddled vices turned virtues, not to even mention delusions of disembodied "intelligent designers," could well handcuff us for another millennia or two... or forever.

The Fertility Institutes is on the cutting edge of PGD (Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis), where a couple hoping to conceive can screen each possible embryo and select one with an ideal genome, free of any genetic defects and potentially with beneficial genes. They were even considering offering parents to make cosmetic selections for their offspring, but the hippies started wailing about GATTACA and the Catholic Church whined about how everyone needs to take the babies that God gives them, so they aborted this promising transhuman program. :P

As for Hitler/genocide, I find it rooted in poor science and the political need to find a scapegoat. I much prefer the following example:

One day, Vlad Dracula decided to cleanse his Kingdom of those he considered to be lazy and unproductive, those who suffered from illness, a handicap, or were simply born in poverty. He decreed that no one should go hungry in his Kingdom, and invited all the poor, unfortunate souls who tainted his concept of what society should be to a banquet in the great hall in Tirgoviste. Once he felt his "guests" had been well fed, not to mention drunk and complacent, Vlad made his appearance, asking them how they would enjoy never having to feel the pain of hunger ever again, or if they wished to never have to worry about anything ever again, to be without a care in the world.

Of course, their reply was enthusiastic, so he obliged, ordering his men to board up the hall, which was then set ablaze. No one escaped.

Who needs ovens when you can flambé the "mundanes"? That, it seems, is much more efficient. Don't go out hunting for them; let them come to you.

Law 40: Despise the Free LunchWhat is offered for free is dangerous – it usually involves either a trick or a hidden obligation. What has worth is worth paying for.

You can say that again. And I thought the Baptist Student Ministry trying to entice me with fried chicken was bad.

NS had the most remarkable political-economical program of that era. It turned Germany from a disaster area –financially, economically and socially- into one of the most thriving nations of Europe in merely 6-7 years. Of course all changed when they invaded Poland, and for that, Britain and France decided to declare war on them. It can be debated if those two countries declared war because they felt sorry for Poland or if there were political motivations. The fact that the Soviet Union invaded Poland during the same month, and that none declared war on them might give a clue.

What NS accomplished through its visionary program in those days is remarkable, especially when compared to the super-powers of today who are not even capable of "battling" the very crisis at hand.

The Jewish part of the NS program, and whether it was useful or not, can be debated of course, but after the war, very comfortably, the whole world tended to push all Antisemitism into the camp of the Nazis and as such, throughout the decades following, could happily ignore the very fact that it was not as much a Nazi-attitude as it being a global attitude. A quick search might reveal the attitude of people, organizations and states versus the Jews.In the first half of the 20th century, in the USA, Jews were discriminated against in employment, access to residential and resort areas, membership in clubs and organizations, and in tightened quotas on Jewish enrollment and teaching positions in colleges and universities. The Leo Frank lynching by a mob of prominent citizens in Marietta, Georgia in 1915 turned the spotlight on Antisemitism in the United States. The case was also used to build support for the renewal of the Ku Klux Klan which had been inactive since 1870.

Throughout the 19th century and into the 20th, the Roman Catholic Church still incorporated strong anti-Semitic elements, despite increasing attempts to separate anti-Judaism, the opposition to the Jewish religion on religious grounds, and racial Antisemitism.

It is always easier to create a black sheep, sacrifice it and take away the sins of the world. History is written by the victors.

Betty and Bob have one sweet child; Billy. They take care of it, cherish it and stimulate it to accomplish all it can. Billy marries Jane, daughter of Jim and Jenny. After twenty years, when the parents of both grow too old to work, Billy and Jane have to take care of them. So, basically they have to support themselves, 4 parents and their upcoming child. Two to feed seven. Add some generations to this, combined with a longer life expectancy and you quickly see a problem arise.

The very problem our Western society is suffering today. Too many elders and too few to support such a system.

It can be avoided by shortening the life expectancy, making people work until they drop dead or have more children.

As Raffy said,There's more than one way to cull, and sometimes, culling someone from a group or system is just as effective a tactic as actually killing them. Everything has a weak point. Everything. You just have to find it, or be skilled at finding it.

With the demystification of the human genome, it could well be that we're closer than ever to being able to create the brave new world that Eugenics has long hinted at, but required imperfect science and guesswork to implement. "Culling" the inherently inferior traits with sterilization and perhaps even accentuating the positive with gene splicing and/or genome resequencing might give us more of an evolutionary boost than Eugenicists ever dreamed.

...A brave vision, but the problems is, our current imperfections as humans and our acceptable and culturally coddled vices turned virtues, not to even mention delusions of disembodied "intelligent designers," could well handcuff us for another millennia or two... or forever.

The Fertility Institutes is on the cutting edge of PGD (Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis), where a couple hoping to conceive can screen each possible embryo and select one with an ideal genome, free of any genetic defects and potentially with beneficial genes. They were even considering offering parents to make cosmetic selections for their offspring, but the hippies started wailing about GATTACA and the Catholic Church whined about how everyone needs to take the babies that God gives them, so they aborted this promising transhuman program. :P

What was the message of GATTACA if not stratification? Or are you making a distinction between an individual self-stratifying in a world of humans created equal and a societaly-imposed stratification of its members (in which case I'd ask how that's different than today)?

The reality is that society already controls for these things - every society has a taboo associated with sex. Isn't a taboo on marrying your cousin really a genetic control?

Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17

As for Hitler/genocide, I find it rooted in poor science and the political need to find a scapegoat. I much prefer the following example:

One day, Vlad Dracula decided to cleanse his Kingdom of those he considered to be lazy and unproductive, those who suffered from illness, a handicap, or were simply born in poverty. He decreed that no one should go hungry in his Kingdom, and invited all the poor, unfortunate souls who tainted his concept of what society should be to a banquet in the great hall in Tirgoviste. Once he felt his "guests" had been well fed, not to mention drunk and complacent, Vlad made his appearance, asking them how they would enjoy never having to feel the pain of hunger ever again, or if they wished to never have to worry about anything ever again, to be without a care in the world.

Of course, their reply was enthusiastic, so he obliged, ordering his men to board up the hall, which was then set ablaze. No one escaped.

Who needs ovens when you can flambé the "mundanes"? That, it seems, is much more efficient. Don't go out hunting for them; let them come to you.

The story continues:

The next morning, Vlad awoke to find no breakfast awaiting him - no food had been delivered to the castle. His chamberpots were not cleaned, his garbage not removed. No one was working on that hole in his drawbridge. The shopkeepers were in a mob before his castle, complaining there were no customers.

Our society needs ditch diggers. Since we've now specialized, we need people at the bottom as well as at the top (however you define "bottom" and "top"). Unless you want to return to hunter-gatherer, which might not be that bad an idea ...

People seem to forget that in all the eugenics-type debates - words like "inferior", "superior", "positive", "negative", "ideal", "defect", are all subjective, usually extremely so.

I fear idiots who don't understand how systems work, and don't understand the consequences of their actions, more than the technology itself.