Benjamin Rogue ePCP: Part 4

After the last report, I spoke to Dennis Quackenbush about how the new Rogue I was testing. I explained that while it shot well with Benjamin bullets, it didn’t seem to group with cast bullets obtained from other sources. He first suggested that I try the old .38-caliber 200-grain lead bullet that we know as a police round here in the U.S.; but in the UK it was their substitute for the old .455 round. When they downsized their WWI service revolver to reduce the recoil, they substituted the 200-grain .38-cal. bullet for the much larger .455-caliber man-stopper they had in WWI. Unfortunately, they also knocked about 9 oz. off the weight of the revolver at the same time, with the result that the new cartridge and revolver kicked just about the same as the one it replaced. It was easier to carry, of course, and that’s always a consideration, but it wasn’t the man-stopper the older bullet had been.

I told Dennis that the heavier I went, the more the Rogue didn’t like the bullet, so he then came up with a different idea. He suggested I try a bullet with a different balance. He asked me if I had tried the rifle with a 148-grain .357-caliber wadcutter, which of course I hadn’t. Some wadcutter bullets have a hollow base that obturates when the cartridge explodes, thus filling the bore and sealing all gasses behind.

The .357 wadcutter bullet weighs 148 grains and has a hollow base similar to a diabolo pellet. That pushes the weight forward and helps stabilize the bullet in flight. This lead isn’t oxidizing. That white powder is the dry lubricant that has been applied to the bullet after casting or swaging. Notice the lack of conventional grease grooves.

The wadcutters were the first non-Benjamin bullets to perform well in the Rogue. They fed well, and they also shot to the same point of aim as both of the Benjamin bullets. This proves that a Rogue owner can cast his own bullets for the rifle and save a lot of money. In fact, with a Shoebox Compressor and casting your own bullets, the Rogue would be cheaper to shoot than a smallbore pellet rifle!

Low on air: What can I do?
When I shot the wadcutter bullets for accuracy, I knew my carbon fiber tank was running low. I still had to chronograph all the bullets at both power settings and wanted to save some air for that, so I decided to try something different during this group. Five bullets were fired with the rifle set to heavy bullets and medium power. That ran the gun out of a charge of air. The display panel said there were no shots remaining at that setting. I changed the power setting to discharge, which holds the valve open twice as long as normal. I then fired two more shots on the discharge setting just to see what would happen. I labeled each hole on the target, so you can see where every shot went.

The five bullets fired on medium power grouped in about 2-3/4 inches at 50 yards. Each shot is numbered. Then the two discharge shots hit lower and to the left. Interesting that you can actually get more shots on a fill than the status panel indicates!

Velocity
Now, it was time to test the velocity of all the bullets that were accurate in the Rogue. This exercise used up the remaining air in my tank, thus ending the day at the range.

Nosler 145-grain Ballistic Tip
The first bullet we’ll test is the 145-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet that’s the best general bullet for the Rogue. On high power, the bullet averaged 774 f.p.s., with a range from 766 to 781 f.p.s. At the average velocity, the rifle generated 192.92 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.

On medium power, this bullet averaged 751 f.p.s. and ranged from 741 to 760 f.p.s. At the average velocity, the bullet generates 181.64 foot-pounds of energy. That’s pretty remarkable, because that’s also a good place to keep the power for the extra shots it provides.

Benjamin Pursuit 158-grain bullet
The Benjamin Pursuit 158-grain round nose bullet was tested next. It was tested in the last accuracy test and proved to be acceptable at 50 yards. On high power, this bullet averaged 741 f.p.s., with a velocity spread that ranged from 735 to 752 f.p.s. At the average velocity, it generates 192.69 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. The Nosler Ballistic Tip reigns supreme for power in the Rogue by a razor-thin margin.

On medium power, this bullet averaged 711 f.p.s. and ranged from 704 to 714 f.p.s. At the average velocity, it’s pumping out 177.4 foot-pounds of ebergy.

Benjamin Pursuit 127-grain flat-nosed bullet
The Benjamin Pursuit 127-grain flat nose bullet was the speed champ in the Rogue. On high power, it launched that accurate little bullet at an average 796 f.p.s., with a spread from 786 to 809 f.p.s. At the average velocity, this little pill produces 178.73 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

It’s the medium power setting that I’m interested in for this bullet, however, because I believe I would have a bullet mold made to cast this bullet if I owned a Rogue. At this setting, the bullet averaged 747 f.p.s., with a spread from 740 to 751 f.p.s. That’s 157.4 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, on average. That’s more muzzle energy than you get from a 40-grain high-speed .22 long rifle cartridge; and, of course, the larger .357-caliber bullet does far more damage. At that power level, the Rogue would be a good fox and coyote gun out to about 100 yards.

148-grain wadcutter
Finally, I did test the 148-grain wadcutters that Dennis Quackenbush sent me. I had only a total of 10 on hand, so I tested just one shot at each setting. On high power, the bullet went 757 f.p.s., which translates to 188.37 foot-pounds. On medium power, it went 732 f.p.s., which is 176.13 foot-pounds. It might interest you to know that the Rogue is propelling this bullet at very close to the same velocity that a .38 Special midrange wadcutter cartridge produces. If you turn the bullet around when you load it — so the hollow base faces forward — you’ve created a monster hollowpoint bullet. At close range, such a bullet has few equals for destructive capability.

General observations on the new Benjamin Rogue
In case you aren’t aware, I played a small part in the Rogue’s developement, so some will think I’m biased in favor of the gun. I assure you I’m not. But this test surprised me in a number of ways. The first was the velocity stablity the Crosman engineers have been able to build into the gun. No other big bore airgun comes anywhere close to what the Rogue can do, as far as maintaining velocity with a specific bullet.

The magazine feeding problem is now gone. As long as the bullet is sized to enter the bore, it will feed fluidly through the redesigned magazine.

Accuracy has been improved. The 145-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip is still the best bullet overall, but the 127-grain Benjamin Pursuit is more accurate and more fun to shoot. If you own a Rogue, you might think about having a bullet mold made up to cast this bullet in soft lead. I hear that Mr. Hollowpoint also has some bullets that do well in the Rogue. After testing some in my .308 Quackenbush, I believe it.

The trigger is greatly improved. That was the part that Lloyd Sykes and I were worried about with the original Rogue. Well, Crosman has done it right, and I know hunters will like this one.

As far as worrying about whether a new Rogue you buy is a real new one or just one that’s left over I will say this. Crosman went to extreme lengths to remove all unsold Rogues from their dealers long before they released this new model. I’m sure those guns were reworked to the new standard. So, unless you’re buying from a hobby dealer (someone who isn’t really doing it as a business) or out the back of a car trunk, I would say you’re going to get the newer design.

I would like to thank the Crosman Corporation for providing the new Rogue for this extensive test.

Update about last night ;t his morning a phone call has arrived from hospital in Zagreb to say that they didn’t do a transplantation .This donor heart was unusable or mis match -I don’t really know .I can’t contact her since she forgot her mobile phone but I will know more during this day .This is kinda prolonged agony but at least she is alive …
I cannot express my appreciation to all of you guys because it is beyond words but i’ll try -thank you all !God bless all of you !

BB,
Are the D.Q. bullets weighted forward enough to stabilize via drag; it looks a little marginal? I think it is obvious (to me at least) that the Rogue’s twist rate is too slow to spin stabilize most if not all typical “.38 cal.” bullets; I think I asked about sabots before and cleaning the plastic fouling is a deal breaker. A fully drag stabilized projectile (or a ball as an outside chance) might be necessary for the kind of accuracy most of us want to see. I’m probably spoiled by my clunks and Savages :)…

By the way, I’m impressed that DQ was willing to help with the Rogue– what a guy!

RE: Savage 1920. I’ve heard all kinds of smack talked about Savages, but I’ve not seen many I didn’t see some good in. The 1920 is way up there in the “like” category.

I know it sounds crazy, but I would take the 127 gr. bullets and hollow out the bottom with a drill (1/4″?) and centering jig or something. I’m guessing 65 gr. would be nice, not sure you can get it that light, but even 85 would probably help. It needs to be short and go faster(lighter), I suspect.

That’s right. Savage all the way. I happened across a couple reviews that had the effrontery to criticize the Accu-Trigger and claim groups that were less than stellar. So, I had to read a bunch of exceptional reviews to make myself feel better–they weren’t hard to find.

Sorry to go off topic. I was wondering if you might have an opportunity to review the soon-to-be-released Tech Force M-12 at some point. I look from time to time at Pyramyd Air’s list of new products and, after seeing the pictures and description of the M-12, realized that it is essentially a Mendoza gun vaguely reminiscent of the old Air Venturi Avenger 1100, but with some changes. One such unmistakable change was the improved (longer) muzzle brake which appears to be the same as the one on the Bronco. For that matter, it appears to have more than few similarities to the Bronco, which leads me to the leads me to my point about why I am hoping you will review the M-12: I am extremely interested in knowing if the design features you put into the Bronco will show up in the new M-12. If they do, the M-12 could wind up being a really impressive rifle.

By the way, after I bought my Bronco several months ago, I came to appreciate just about everything the rifle had to offer (the color of the stock included). Thank you so much for all that you did to design a rifle that is so fun to shoot! The only thing that didn’t work out as I had hoped was the length. After I put a scope on my Bronco, it didn’t seem to balance as well as with open sights. Since it is a relatively short rifle (more or less a carbine), I guess that the scope made the rifle a little butt-heavy. However, I expect that the M-12 might balance a little better since it is about 4.5 inches longer than the Bronco. If it turns out to have the same level of quality as the Bronco, I will certainly be in line to get one.

It feels and sounds like we’re at the end of the test for the new and improved Benjamin Rogue.

Since I’m not known as a wishy washy kind of guy at this point I usually keep the airgun being tested on my radar or it falls off my radar.

This is the first time I can remember that I’m bewildered by an airgun. I don’t know if it belongs on my radar or not. I can’t wrap my head around the Rogue. Who is the target market?

Hunters?
Based on FPE game/pests up to the size of a coyote would be humane. Based on accuracy seen so far I’d be reluctant to shoot a coyote beyond 60 yards. Lots of work and luck to get a coyote to within 60 yards. Prairie dogs? Because of noise and lack of long range accuracy I think there are quieter airgun choices that will provide the required long range accuracy in a smaller caliber that is adequate and eats cheaper ammo.

Target Shooters?
Don’t think so.

Plinkers?
Maybe. The majority of gun owners need to go to the range to shoot a powerful and loud gun like the Rogue. Seems there are lots of choices (rimfires & centerfires) for plinking guns that can be taken to a range so considering the competition it’s hard to believe the Rogue was introduced to go head to head with this competition. Does the Rogue have an edge in this market because it’s an airgun? Since felons can’t own firearms maybe this is a segment of the market the Rogue is trying to capture?

A gun for the annual Big Bore Airgun get together?
I can see the Rogue fitting this very limited market but it’s so slim that there must be a market segment I’m missing. If I was within 200 miles of an annual big bore airgun get together I would probably own one by now. The shot count and ease of power adjustment is intriguing. I think better accuracy would be possible with the Rogue even if it meant casting your own bullets. I’d probably buy a DAQ .458 before the Rogue though.

From what I’ve seen across the board (not just big bores sold by Pyramyd Air), some people shoot targets/spinners & some hunt…and some do both.

Never underestimate the number of people who own guns made for specific purposes…but never use them that way.

People buy what they want, not what they need. To some, the novelty of owning an airgun for which they can buy bullets is quite persuasive. While a guy might need a gun to shoot squirrels in the attic, he wants a big bore because it’s exciting & different.

I’m guessing most people who are buying big bores are not hunting with them (buyers of Quackenbush guns may be the exception).

Thanks for the insight. I know you read every review submitted to the PA site. Before I posted my long, rambling thoughts I read the 3 reviews of the Rogue on the PA site.

The theme that described these purchasers attraction to the Rogue was power and penetration. They justified ownership since it’s a “powerful hunting gun” and dismissed accuracy as “good enough for hunting” but I didn’t get the impression any of them had been out hunting with the Rogue. Your observation that there are many people who own guns made for specific purposes…but never use them that way is a perfect description for my impression of the 3 reviews on the Rogue.

I still don’t know what the “specific purpose” of the Rogue is though. Maybe it’s just novelty.

Kevin,
Count me in agreement on all points in theory. I can see the charm in all those pursuits, but I can find a better (and cheaper) proven alternative for them as well. I hate to see the technology and work Lloyd and BB put into go to waste, though…would like to see at least a 75-100 yard coyote rifle or compelling 100 yard (min.) target rifle come out of it! Since 3KPSI is practical limit, I think either caliber needs to be reduced or they need to get creative with the internal ballistics :)!

All valid observations. What can I say, but that it is what it is? Lloyd and I both wanted to see a larger-caliber rifle/shotgun combo, but we were overruled. At any rate, Crosman now has a world-class electronic trigger and a valve that nobody can equal. What they do with it remains to be seen.

It is what it is but what is it. Get the impression you’re bewildered too.

I hope that Crosman allows that wonderful electronic trigger and revolutionary valve design to evolve into other airguns.

Personally, I’d like to see them go the other direction. Assuming the valve design can equate to a huge shot count in smaller calibers I’d like to see an introduction in .22 cal and .25 cal with GREEN MOUNTAIN barrels. Don’t care how cheap the stock is since undoubtedly there would be multiple aftermarket offerings to choose from. If the valve could deliver around 80 shots in .25 cal and around 100 shots in .22 cal this gun could not only go head to head with the daystate electronic guns but with other high end regulated guns. Don’t know if it’s possible but a retail price under $900 would blow the competition out of the water IMHO.

I’m less bewildered by the Rogue than by the odd accuracy results that subtract from what should be a solid contribution by the computer and valve technology. Obviously this no technology does not make the gun less accurate and neither does the big bore in principle. So, why is this an issue although today’s results are a little more like it.

That business about moving the bullet weight forward is interesting. I had the impression that one of the rationales of hollowpoint bullets (besides expansion) is moving the center of gravity backwards to stabilize the bullet. Well, I suppose you can’t leave any stone unturned.

Regarding the Rogues “odd accuracy” I’m not inferring that the “computer and valve technology” are to blame. I’m more suspicious about the barrel and not yet finding the right bullet for this gun. Another topic completely though.

Well, so far it hasn’t done very well. There have been plenty of soild pellets, which are just .22 bullets by another name, but none that are accurate. And the Daystate idea of putting a .22 rimfire barrel on an 80 foot-pound air rifle turned out to be a fad. It may have been more accurate, but when you can’t buy Eley .22 rimfire bullets, it doesn’t matter.

So, to be classified a Big Bore Airgun they not only have to be a caliber larger than .24 (since the .25/.257 at the last LASSO shoot was acknowledged a Big Bore) but they also must shoot bullets.

How is a bullet defined for Big Bore Airguns?

The picture of the projectile used in the Rogue in todays article is a weight forward design and has a hollow base similar to pellets. Is this considered a “bullet” in big bore airguns? The sheridan cylindrical pellets are a very similar design to many cast bullet offerings by Seth Rowland. In this same vein would the sheridan cylindrical pellets be considered a bullet? I’m confused.

Yes, I recall you saying that now. One of my thoughts was to apply the Rogue technology to a platform that would be more accurate–like a smaller caliber. But I suppose regulating air consistency is most valuable for big bores, so the Rogue technology is being applied just where it should be.

Matt,
I would like to see a barrel swap on a Rogue to a barrel that was known to be accurate. I think that would prove that the barrel is the problem. If you could get 6 or 8 touching shots at 50 yards on one fill I think there would be some real interest in the gun.

Kevin I think you stated what a LOT of people have on their mind including myself.

Don’t get me wrong I absolutly LOVE the idea of the e-valve but I can’t help to think it’s somewhat wasted on a rifle like this that isn’t going to sell as as let’s a Marauder. Not that they shouldn’t put the technology in .357 caliber rifle, I think they should ALSO put it in a rifle like the Rogue.
This thing would do wonders in smaller caliber rifles and since they don’t want us to change the program inside they could lock it for the Canadian and UK market as well as others market where they have restriction on airguns and they could set these gun closer to the limit, because of the set limit here some guns shoot at very weak sub 400fps, with the evalve the shooter could enter the weight of his pellet and the rifle could be shooting right on the limit! Sorry… (taking a deep breath) I’m more calm now. This e-valve thing is like a cup of coffee for me.

Some people make big bore airguns that shoot under our imposed limit for airguns here just for the fun or like you said “the novelty” of the thing. Just to punch bigger holes in cans (I must admit to wanting one).

OK, so you’ve said it, “big-bore airguns are not that accurate”.
But is it usually true that the larger the caliber for any particular rifle, the less accurate?
Take for instance an air-rifle that is available in .177, .22, and .25 calibers.
Should we expect that guns accuracy to get worse as the caliber goes up?

One thing I’m curious about with regards to this big-bore airgun is whether the bullets start to tumble at say, 100 yards? My speculation is that air-rifles aren’t spinning these heavy bullet fast enough to generate the stability needed for good accuracy. What are your thoughts?

I was just within a few feet of Bill Clinton who was on campus for a speaking engagement!!!! >:-) My overriding thought was that here was a man who destroyed tens of thousands of wonderful M14 rifles with forged receivers. Why in the world couldn’t the government have sold them for a profit instead? Presumably the full-auto option was an issue but surely there was some way to neutralize that.

I was also looking at his Secret Service Team. But if they had had a hard day’s night, they were covering it up pretty well. If you’re protecting an ex-president, does that mean you’re on the B team? Clinton also had a gigantic entourage consisting of all sorts of people including a bunch of little kids!? I suppose that being in the entourage of an ex-president is a real chasm of anonymity.

I would think that the kind of adulation and deference surrounding someone like that 24 hours a day could induce a kind of insanity. It’s not normal.

Once a full auto, always a full auto. So, they couldn’t be sold through the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). The should have just kept them in war reserve storage. Some are being used today in the “Hot Zones”.

Now I’m not a fan of Bill or any other politicians especially those who are not ruling my country.
You know… I have enough problems with my elected officials to start worrying about others…
Now that being said I don’t think Clinton is “that much” responsible about the destruction of these nice rifles… it’s not like he got in his office one morning and said “you know what guys, lets scrap some cool old rifles today”.
Someone working with him probably went “Sir there is this big bunch of old WWII era rifles in storage that we don’t know what to do with, converting them would be a pain and selling them could be complicated because they’re full auto, could you please sign here so we can destroy them?” IF it reached his office in the first place.

Edith do you know if PA intends on carrying the Hatsan AT-P1 and AT-P2 PCP pistols?
The P1 is already available here in detuned and full power form in .177, .22 and .25 calibers but not the P2 which is has detachable shoulder stock and you know I can’t resist take down carbines…
It’s already available in the UK and Australia/New Zealand it seems (it’s the only places I’ve been able to locate talk about it).

Here is a picture of it, having seen a few pics of the P1 from other Canadian owner I can’t balme them for putting a shoulder stock on it, that thing is HUGE. The Webley Alecto almost looks like a PPK besides a Desert Eagle when compared to the Hatsan!

I want this thing badly, if it’s as accurate as the PCP’s (not the springers) it would make a nice adition to my small collection.

The Hatsan site in Turkey shows the AT-P1 pistol (and they listed it as a PCP rifle & don’t mention the shoulder stock at all), but the US Hatsan site doesn’t show the pistol as one that they’re importing. If the US importer isn’t bringing in the pistol, it’s probably a no-go.

I’ve forwarded your comment to Pyramyd Air’s purchasing department to see if they have any info about this gun coming here. I’ll let you know what I find out.

I know it’s not on their website yet but they announced it on facebook (another good point for facebook ) and I’ve seen it for sale in a few UK shops.
The BT-65 Elite is on their website but hasn’t made it to Canada yet but the AT-P1 did?!? Weirdos.

Thanks for your help once again, what would we (and PyramydAir) do without you?

I hope it make it here, it looks like a nice gun. Well not nice has in pretty because it’s has to be one of the ugliest guns I’ve seen but nice as in fun and accurate.

Just heard back from purchasing. Pyramyd Air will sell the AT-P1 in .177, .22 & .25. The factory claims it’ll be in stock in December or January. There is no AT-P2 that they’re aware of, plus there’s no shoulder stock being offered. I wonder if the shoulder stock shown in the link you provided is from an aftermarket source.

BB
Only accurate rifles are interesting-Townsend Whelen. What does that make the Rogue? This rifle is ahead of the State of the Ar,t so to be this inaccurate is a down right shame. Daystate (should I mention them?) has a super accurate big bore in .303! Does Crosman hold holy the need to use solid bullets? The Rogue technology could be adapted to smaller calibers with great success I think given Crosman’s tendancy to keep costs low. Although I view with trepidation the idea of electronics in guns, I would buy one because I subscribe to Townsend Whelen’s philosophy.

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