I've seen discussions on a lot of audio related forums over the years and those that are "anti cable' seem to cast off cables as just pieces of wire and there really isn't a difference. Well, to me and others the have spent time with higher end cables, we just don't see it that way.

Has it not occurred to you that some of us are former high end audiophiles? Some of us have learned the truth using scientifically valid testing methods and that is why we don't see it your way.

Quote:

I personally do think that the cable mfg should derive some standard testing that gives the consumer a way to see a frequency response curve so we can compare using something that's more related to quality of sound. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening so the best we can do is test a variety of cables, see if there is a difference and then use whatever we like/afford.

Why do you think differences in cable "frequency response" would be audible?

Quote:

If someone is going to be a little serious about their audio gear, they need to learn how to listen to different audio gear before one can make intelligent decisions about what to buy otherwise they are going to be more reliant on what others say.

I can't imagine why someone would want to listen to audio gear. For me it is more entertaining to listen to music.

...
I quote PT Barnum : " There is a sucker born every minute"
And,I have met folks with lots of money, who really believe you get what you pay for,that is not always true.

It is true that you don't always get what you pay for but it is also true the if you don't pay for it you probably won't get it so shop carefully.

As for the metals. gold is is a noble metal and does not oxidize so if you don't wear it off by too may connect/disconnect cycles it helps prevent those pesky loose/static creating connections that appear a few years after you have hidden the connections under layers of cabinet and new equipment.

IME they are good for a limited number of insertions, and after that you either massage their looseness out with a pair of pliers or tolerate a bad connections. Cable Chiropractic, I guess. Not my idea of fun.

Neutrik quotes >1000 insertions.

AMP recommends lubrication, for an "order of magnitude" increase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnyk

Thing is that these days most moderrn audio systems have zero, count them zero RCA connectors so this is a kind of a discussion of straw men.

Actually, it depends on the plating technique that's being done, and there are companies that use other types of metals for connectors, so to make generalizations is being kind of ignorant.

Cheap plating is cheap plating. Some don't use cheap plating.

It also depends on the quality of metal they are plating and how well the Gold sticks to the metal and the actual process used will determine the quality of the plating job. Obviously, unless you do a lot of changes to your system, if you clean all of the contacts and then connect everything, the plating rubs off only if you are constantly handling the connectors, but if you aren't constantly handling the connectors, then it doesn't rub off as quickly. I have some cables that are quite old and the Gold plating looks like new and no sign of any "rubbing off". Maybe you are just used to products that are cheaply plated.

Has it not occurred to you that some of us are former high end audiophiles? Some of us have learned the truth using scientifically valid testing methods and that is why we don't see it your way.

Why do you think differences in cable "frequency response" would be audible?

I can't imagine why someone would want to listen to audio gear. For me it is more entertaining to listen to music.

Why do I think the cable's frequency response would be audible? Because I've heard it first hand many times. If you can't hear it, then that's not my problem. It all depends on the cable and what you are comparing it to. If you are comparing two cables with similar response curves than they should sound similar, but if you listen to cables with much different curves, they should sound different. Now, if one person can't hear the difference, that's all dependent on that person's ability to hear/listen, not everyone has trained themselves on how to listen.

When you listen to music, you are listening to the entire "system". Room, recording, equipment and all of that works together to produce the end result that you are listening to.

If you don't care about the sound quality of your "system", then that's a personal choice/decision.

The simple belief that many of the items below can make an audible difference amounts to being a magical belief:

That, as I explained seems to have taken place in the 8 items mentioned above.

The first error in the paragraph above is that this discussion is limited to average persons. Several EEs have posted on this thread and more people with comparable backgrounds are posting on this thread.

The second error is that cable companies generally don't use any kind of real test to prove that their cables have a different sound quality. They tend to use testimonials that cite no reliable evidence.

And that is a false as well, because none of the things that were cited if even so vaguely, are new.

If there is something new and you are so expert in this area, where are the specifics?

Where is something that is actually new?

Seeing none, and given the number of challenges along these lines that have not been answered...

Obviously, you haven't spent time with cable mfg looking at the different ways they objectively measure cables to determine the quality of sound in different cables. If you don't have an interest in that, that's your decision, but it's been proven and people that have "trained" and "experienced" ears in the music industry hear these differences and once you get used to listening to differences in cables, then you are better able to judge which cables you want to use.

I think you are right in that most cable mfg haven't posted test results and I think they should, so I'm in agreement with you.

However, MIT Cables did post test results comparing some of their early designs to the "generic" cables as an objective way to "PROVE" their concepts in cable design. They have done more testing since then, they have other ways to look at different sound qualities, but the problem is they don't want to give away their "trade secrets" because how they test and what response curves they are getting is their competitive advantage. They were the first to implement using articulation curves in audio cables to prove how cables can sound differently. They just applied articulation measurements to cable design for music since no one was really designing cables prior with any real idea as to how to make one sound better than another.

What measurements they are using today I don't know since they are a little secretive on that, but my understanding is they are looking at the harmonic structure of various instruments producing a note and looking at what comes out of the cable to see if and how much difference there is. Obviously, if you change the harmonic structure, you are changing the way the music sounds.

I just think you need to rely less on what someone that hasn't designed top end cables explain this and more on people that do have this experience. I know not all people can do this, but if you can, do a factory visit to some of these cables mfg and talk to the engineers and maybe they'll sit down with you and show you how they test their cables.

There are some cable mfg that do interviews and have done videos that are posted on YouTube where they discuss some of the things they are seeing in cables and how they design cables, but obviously, they won't tell you everything to prevent copy cats since there is a lot of copy cat companies out there. There are several companies that have seen counterfeit products that aren't the same thing, only they are packaged to look just like the original product.

The simple belief that many of the items below can make an audible difference amounts to being a magical belief:

That, as I explained seems to have taken place in the 8 items mentioned above.

The first error in the paragraph above is that this discussion is limited to average persons. Several EEs have posted on this thread and more people with comparable backgrounds are posting on this thread.

The second error is that cable companies generally don't use any kind of real test to prove that their cables have a different sound quality. They tend to use testimonials that cite no reliable evidence.

And that is a false as well, because none of the things that were cited if even so vaguely, are new.

If there is something new and you are so expert in this area, where are the specifics?

Where is something that is actually new?

Seeing none, and given the number of challenges along these lines that have not been answered...

Go talk to Bob Ludwig, Doug Sax, and probably every major mastering engineer that's worth a damn and they'll probably ALL tell you that they can hear the difference in audio cables. These guys aren't going to rewire their studio with ultra expensive cables unless they hear an improvement. Some of these people have rewired their studios as much as 20 years ago and to them, it's common knowledge that cables make a difference. The top mastering engineers typically know a lot about electronics engineering, acoustic engineering and how to listen to music and audio equipment. An EE doesn't always know all of this. So I immediately discount what an EE will tell me. I would first ask the EE if they have done every possible test that these cable mfg are doing and have actually tested a wide variety of cables where the cable design is dramatically different from one another.

The bottom line is, have you listened to a variety of cables on a variety of systems using a variety of music to determine if you can or can not hear a difference? it took me a while to get my listening abilities to the point where I heard the difference and at that time, the high end cable market was more in it's infancy stage, so a lot has changed over the years as most of the cable mfg have actually changed their cable designs at least once or twice over the years as they find out more about what they can do about improving their product.

To think that all cables sound the same is like saying all 12inch speakers sound the same. Unfortunately, they don't. Different design, materials and precision makes one product different than another and how it affects the audio signal of complex sound waves.

Question numero uno: How long before cheap cables (and ultra expensive ones too) start fading away (sound quality degradation)?
Simply put, how long they last; that you can clearly hear and measure that they're not up to it no more and that it's time for replacement?

Numero dos: Do cables (wires) vibrate? ...Oscillation, vibration, ...and @ what frequencies and @ how many pulsations per second?

Why do I think the cable's frequency response would be audible? Because I've heard it first hand many times. If you can't hear it, then that's not my problem.

It is your problem because you are hearing what is not there. I offered to prove the truth to you. Zero response from you. But if you aren't interested in the truth then that's not my problem.

Quote:

It all depends on the cable and what you are comparing it to. If you are comparing two cables with similar response curves than they should sound similar, but if you listen to cables with much different curves, they should sound different. Now, if one person can't hear the difference, that's all dependent on that person's ability to hear/listen, not everyone has trained themselves on how to listen.

Not true. No properly made cable will affect frequency response enough to be audible. Those few that do are engineering abominations. Where do I sign up for listening lessons? If you had any idea how many bias controlled listening tests i've done, you would have saved that comment for someone else.

Quote:

When you listen to music, you are listening to the entire "system". Room, recording, equipment and all of that works together to produce the end result that you are listening to.

Speak for yourself. I enjoy good music for what it is whether it is playing on a high end audio system or a car radio.

Quote:

If you don't care about the sound quality of your "system", then that's a personal choice/decision.

It is much more than that. It is the result of years of learning about what does and what doesn't matter in sound reproduction equipment and acoustics. Hint. Cables don't matter.

You know very little if anything at all about me. You may feel that is enough to validate your generalization, I do not.

Whatever. When someone says that there is no difference in gold plating, that's being a little naive or ignorant about metals, plating processes, etc. I had my local dealer years ago change the connector on one my older CD transports from the generic non-gold plated connector to higher quality gold plated connector for the RCA SPDIF connector. Was there a difference? Yes, there was. It was quite noticeable to me. I asked the tech, who actually had worked for a high end audio mfg designing audio equipment, and he explained that it's a combination of the quality of the metal, the quality of the plating and in this case it was gold plating vs the generic non-gold plated connectors that a lot of Japanese equipment mfg were using at the time as well as the quality of the solder used.

He explained to me that something very insignificant as the connector and even the solder used can make a difference. The cheaper the product, the cheaper the quality of the components used. So, will having gold connectors automatically make it better? NO. It's just one thing that people look at. Heck, some of the high companies don't use Gold, they use Rhodium. But when it comes to gold plating, there are different metals of the actual connector and then there is different qualities of gold plating, some are cheap and some aren't. The more expensive connectors will typically have better conductivity.

Please don't take my comments as personal attacks, they aren't. Being naive or ignorant is not a personal attack, it's a statement based on an observation by your or someone's comments.

There is a lot to learn about this stuff and there are all kinds of information from different sources including equipment mfg, and various people in the industry.

I tend to look at what various people say and then ultimately it comes down to the individual to make up their own mind. But I've gone through the stage of not being able to hear subtle differences in cables to be able to do that. It took a long time to hear these differences. I don't always hear a difference because it depends on what I'm comparing, etc.

Speak for yourself. I enjoy good music for what it is whether it is playing on a high end audio system or a car radio.

It is much more than that. It is the result of years of learning about what does and what doesn't matter in sound reproduction equipment and acoustics. Hint. Cables don't matter.

To you they don't matter, but for others they do.

Now, when it comes to picking what gear I want, I have to do listening tests to figure out what works best for me.

Once we hear something we like in terms of the music, the difference in enjoyment is how well our system is reproducing it. Obviously, sometimes we can enjoy our favorite music in our car stereo because are just listening to the music. Sometimes, I couldn't care less about what stereo it's on, but when I'm at home and I have my stereo on about 8 hours a day listening to music at all hours of the day, I would like it to sound as good as I can get it within my budget and if buying better cables allows that system to sound better, then I'll pay for it.

But to tell others that cables don't matter is VERY naive. Go tell the top mastering studio engineers that cables don't matter and you'll get a response which will probably include rolled eyes. They are trained listeners that listen to music from an analytical perspective where it's their job to produce a better sounding recording. They are the most qualified, IMO, to qualify if cables make a difference or not. From my experience, the people that tend to say that it doesn't make a difference simply either haven't trained themselves to hear differences in cables or simply haven't compared enough different cables to ultimately hear the differences. Some people simply have bad hearing because of hearing losses, but for those that have decent hearing, there is a certain amount of time it takes to learn how to listen.

A good example is to download the Harmon How to Listen app and test yourself. if you can pass that test with 85% accuracy for the entire test through all of the levels, I would be surprised if you could. It takes a long time to reach that level. That app is a good indicator of how good your listening abilities are. It's not the only method, it's just one that I know of.

But test some different brands of cables on different systems. I usually like to tell people to test MIT or Transparent cable because they both use filter boxes wired in parallel to the cable and I experienced very drastic and noticeable differences in their cables vs more generic cables. So if you haven't done this, then maybe you should take some time to compare.

But if you really don't care about cables, then that's a personal decision and I'll respect that, but don't tell me cables can't make a difference when I know for a fact, they can.

It is your problem because you are hearing what is not there. I offered to prove the truth to you. Zero response from you. But if you aren't interested in the truth then that's not my problem.

Not true. No properly made cable will affect frequency response enough to be audible. Those few that do are engineering abominations. Where do I sign up for listening lessons? If you had any idea how many bias controlled listening tests i've done, you would have saved that comment for someone else.

Speak for yourself. I enjoy good music for what it is whether it is playing on a high end audio system or a car radio.

It is much more than that. It is the result of years of learning about what does and what doesn't matter in sound reproduction equipment and acoustics. Hint. Cables don't matter.

go down to a MIT Cable reseller or a Transparent Cable reseller and sit down and have them plug in the cheapest cables (non-MIT or non-Transparent) and sit and listen to music that's a good recording of acoustic instruments and listen for about at least 1/2 hour at a reasonable volume level and get used to that sound quality. Then have the dealer swap the cables for either MIT or Transparent and see if you hear a difference. They don't have to be the most expensive cables they make, even their cheapest ones should sound noticeably different. OR you can borrow some demo cables and try it at home on your system. Do some of your own listening tests to judge for yourself. The problem that I have is that I have no idea how good your listening abilities are. I don't know what kind of recordings you normally listen to, I don't know how well you can do listening tests of audio equipment. When I first started to listen to differences in cables over 20 years ago, at first I couldn't hear a difference until I evaluated an MIT cable, that's the first time I can honestly say I heard a difference. Then as time went on and I listened to more and more cables, i then got more experience in this area. For some it comes more easily than others. Over the course of 20+ years, i have my own collection of music that I know very well and when there is a sonic difference, it's easier for me to tell since I'm very familiar with the recordings, which is why I use them for product evaluation purposes. Everyone chooses what recordings they like using for this purpose. I have personally found natural recordings of acoustic instruments to be more useful than recordings of electronic instruments where the guitars are distorted or their is a lot of audio compression, etc. because the recording itself just doesn't have much detail to begin with.

Depending on the circumstances, some scenarios will present a bigger, more noticeable difference in comparing cables than other comparison tests, so there are a lot of variables that come into the situation. But sincerely, if you don't care, then that's another issue, but if you really do want to investigate listening to differences in cables, then it's going to take some effort on your part to go to dealers and sit down with them. Some dealers do have decent listening rooms and some do not. I, fortunately, have a local dealer with one room that's quite well designed and it's great for listening to different gear.

Either way, I think it's really naive to say that cables can't make a difference when there are a lot of top end mastering engineers that say otherwise and to me, they are the most critical ears in the business. it's their job to listen to subtle things that happen with a recording and they don't typically like wasting money on gear unless it improves their ability to do their job.

Why do I think the cable's frequency response would be audible? Because I've heard it first hand many times. If you can't hear it, then that's not my problem. It all depends on the cable and what you are comparing it to. If you are comparing two cables with similar response curves than they should sound similar, but if you listen to cables with much different curves, they should sound different. Now, if one person can't hear the difference, that's all dependent on that person's ability to hear/listen, not everyone has trained themselves on how to listen.

When you listen to music, you are listening to the entire "system". Room, recording, equipment and all of that works together to produce the end result that you are listening to.

If you don't care about the sound quality of your "system", then that's a personal choice/decision.

As a electronics and electrical engineer, I can tell you wasting money on expensive brand cables, weather it be for speaker wire, audio component cables or HDMI video cables are a waste of money. One might pump a signal down a cable and look at the wave with a oscilloscope or spectrum and see a minute difference, but to the imperfect human ear, there's no way in hell you're going to tell the difference.
Especially if your over the age of 10. The human ear Deteriorates as we age, loosing effective hearing from 20,000 Hz (the top of the range down to 1000 Hz, every day of your life. So spending extra money on expensive cables won't do a thing. For speakers, get some standard copper 18g - 16g wire, and be done with it. For component RCA plug cables, getting the gold connector types are a joke. You ain't gonna hear it. Same for the digital HDMI cables with gold connectors...they aren't real gold to begin with, and even if they were you aren't going to notice the difference. The extra money you save, spend on decent speakers and a center speaker. With a half way quality theater amp of 70 watts a channel, the speakers make all the difference in the world. And Ohh... power filters for your components..... B.S. The transformer converting the AC to DC for all of the circuitry along with filtering capacitors take care of all of the filtering you need.

I've been an audio nut since I got my first two Albums ( Abbey Road & Strange Days) and a "record player" for a birthday long ago..., and I think this issue has been discussed ever since then. I agree 100% with The Neff (although I'm not sure on the gold plating...).

IMHO folks should be doing a double blind test on this sort of issue. ie => Can you hear a positive difference or not? Pretty simple. In reality it's all about the Speakers. Most OEMs can make pretty decent electronic gear (the Vacuum Tube world is totally different) and folks typically short change themselves when buying Speakers. The "old" rule of thumb used to be spend half of the budget on the electronic boxes, and the other half on the Speakers.

If folks have more money later then they can try "high end" speaker cables, or power conditioners (which I think are beneficial for terrible situations with bad harmonics and/or voltage swings on the power feed - not normal installs). High end HDMI cables are really all about advertising and more margin ($) to the seller (most don't make their own cables).

One tip is to keep all your cables short as practical. (lessens possible radio interference.) Use one level higher gauge for your speakers than you think, and you'll probably never have to think about them again. Unless of course you read threads like this one.....

What scientific valid testing? I asked I think in the other thread and no one could list one.

Dr. Larry Greenhill organized a DBT of cables using the members and member system(s) of The Audiophile Society. The outcome was negative for audible difference for all but a trivial case involving a relatively long piece of 24 gauge wire, if memory serves.

I don't have the full 6 page article, but this is from its conclusions:

"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

Dr. Larry Greenhill organized a DBT of cables using the members and member system(s) of The Audiophile Society. The outcome was negative for audible difference for all but a trivial case involving a relatively long piece of 24 gauge wire, if memory serves.

Thanks Arny. Would you please provide a copy of the article so that we can see how proper it was. And show how it complies with industry standards such as BS1116?

I'm of the opinion that any reasonably intelligent literate person could do that, so I see no need to busy myself with a project that is not all that interesting to me. In short, its your issue and your claim.

BTW do you know anybody who got through engineering school with this kind of bullying as their primary technique for doing their homework? ;-)