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What Do You Call It When...?

Hi all,

It could be the late hour, but I just had a weird experience I felt like sharing. It ends with a question I'd be interested in hearing opinions on, so here goes:

When you say something you've said thousands of times before, something that all the experiences of your life point to as an incontrovertible, but in a instant you truly BELIEVE IT, to the point where you extinguish all the doubt you didn't even know you had, and it truly becomes a part of who you are...

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

you need to tread carefully in this area. it depends "what" "it" is.. what I mean by this is that there are many people who believe certain dogma taught by their religion beyond a shadow of a doubt, are truly, fully, 100% convinced about it, but it doesn't make it true now does it?

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Appreciate it for what it is and move on. Any hanging around there is not necessary and could even be really confusing.
Awakening is not even aware of itself.

gassho

Taigu

Taigu,

That's actually what I have done in the past with things like this as my natural inclination is just to think, "Hmm...interesting. Wait, what was it again? Oh, I forget...nevermind. If it was important it will come around again." And in the recent past I got very wrapped up in a similar, but much more personal experience for a LONG time. However, it occured to me recently that perhaps I too quickly dismiss experiences of this type. It seems like there must be a (no pun intended) middle way of considering such things, but I am quite sure you are right.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Hi Dosho,...

Have you ever eaten in the restaurant, and when the food enter your mouth and you feel the taste with your tounge, and you find that the food was really super delicious?

The taste can be wonderful in our tounge, but what we should do is just to enjoy the taste, chew it and then swallow it. Don't keep the food in your mouth everyday, just swallow it, let it go...
Then continue eating...

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

All the "its" are made by mind alone and return to nothing to make room for more "its"

Returning to the present moment helps.

The line between the problem and the solution is sometimes fuzzy so just not knowing has to be acceptable.

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your view and I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think sometimes talk like this is used to say that all "its" are equal. And some then use such logic to justify many actions that are ultimately incompatible with buddhist beliefs. I agree with Taigu that all "its" should ultimately be dropped...what I wonder though is how quickly such things should be dropped. In my own case I had come to think of all thoughts as needing to be dropped as quickly as they came, but I don't think that's the thing to do. I don't know what the "right" thing to do is either...just seems to me that some consideration is warranted and maybe such things aren't really part of the buddhist path. I wrote to Jundo not long ago that I think I confuse my path as a buddhist with my attempts to get my mental health in good order since sitting and discussing things with you folks is what led me to break some very narrow and obsesssive thoughts. These thoughts held me back for a long time and I am forever grateful that my eyes have been opened to new possibilities.

Now, I have no idea if revelations like this have anything to do with enlightenment, kensho, makyo, or my practice. All I can say is that in the past I would have completely dropped this kind of thought from mind as unimportant and unnecessary. I honestly don't think of it as anything too profound and all "its" should be allowed to drift away from mind. But these experiences have showed me that I don't think my mind was very open to kensho, satori, enlightment, or whatever...and I do think being closed off to such things can be just as bad as clinging to anything we feel so sure is kensho that we won't ever let go.

Regardless, thanks again for your thoughts Rich (and everyone else) as they have given me some thoughts to consider. Then later, when I get the chance to sit, I'll drop them with all the other "its", clearing out the cobwebs for awhile until the next piece of mind theatre dances to another little ditty.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Hi Dosho,

How quickly should he be dropped?

How long does maintain the idea of a door or a gate after getting through? Why do you think this is called gateless gate? For ultimately you are the gate and door in sheer motion-action. What needs to be cultivated is the empty field in which it arises, not what arises. Cultivating practice not thoughts about practice. These are nevertheless good old signs. As we move on we swallow them back into a single breath, a single moment. that's all.
One more thing, practice is to invite the realized universe to come forward, not to throw the deluded self at sentient beings (loose interpreation of Dogen 's genjokoan...)In other words, awakening is not ours. It cannot be owned. As long as there is the slightest trace of self, it is another ball game.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Originally Posted by Taigu

One more thing, practice is to invite the realized universe to come forward, not to throw the deluded self at sentient beings (loose interpreation of Dogen 's genjokoan...)In other words, awakening is not ours. It cannot be owned. As long as there is the slightest trace of self, it is another ball game.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

I agree with Taigu that cultivating practice is the correct action. Even in my darkest times of obsessive thinking and feeling the empty field can be cultivated. You wonder how quickly should things be dropped and the great thing about this practice is that you just try the best you can and answers appear or maybe I should say no answers appear because in the empty field there is no need for answers. You just do what needs doing. Dosho, I am really no different from you in the sense that I struggle every day with this life.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

I just don't know. I've never had a belief, expereince, or anything for that matter that didn't sooner or later fade away or change into something else. I'm learning that if all dharmas are dreams then all I've got to hold onto is the wind...and that ain't working worth a @%$&. As soon as I feel convinced that "this is it" it isn't anymore. Or maybe it's just that most of what comes out of my mouth ain't worth believing anyway. ops:

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Hi, Dosho! I call it the Middle Way—an “Ahhhh. . .” experience---not an “Aha!” moment and not an “ACCKK!” moment, but Ahhhh. : )

But seriously, I’ve never gone wrong with the advice to follow the Middle Way in all things (when I follow it). I think Buddha made the Dharma very practical for everyone, lay or experienced, with this piece of advice. Gassho, Grace.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Appreciate it for what it is and move on. Any hanging around there is not necessary and could even be really confusing.
Awakening is not even aware of itself.

Taigu

When you reach enlightenment, see it, acknowledge it, let it go, and move on.

Yet I'm curious about Taigu's awakening is not even aware of itself.

wasn't that Dogen's whole search? We are not aware of ourselves because we are already enlightened. But if already enlightened, why need to do anything at all? That was Dogen's whole path.

We are already Buddhas, yet we are unaware of this fact. We may believe it, but beliefs do not help. We must experience it for ourselves. When we awaken we become aware of the fact that we already were at the place we were seeking. Perfect lacking nothing.

Isn't awakening Buddha become aware of Buddha. Like seeing you reflection. Awakening realizing that it is already awakened.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

It's strange that this thread is revisited one year later. AND, How do you think about this? this year. Reading recently in Uchiyama's "Opening the hand of Thought."; Scott's question on how long do we hold, don't dismiss it but don't go with it. Let it happen and let it linger as long as it wants; enjoy the happening. As long as you are observing non-judgementally, are you thinking? After you've practiced the dance, do you worry about every step? Somethings capture imagination more than others. Take note and let it go. Time will decide what's needed, even if time doesn't exist :roll:

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Dogen s breakthrough was to really understand with his body mind that awakening needed not to be grasped, that awakening had to be lived, manifested through practice-realisation. a great shift from getting to being.
Wen we read Santoka s poems ( the beggar Soto zen monk and poet ), the constant merging of self and nature, of self and others, of self and object is striking. This merging is the awakened dance itself. Not to paint the mountain, not to draw or describe it, to be mountain- self, rain-self, bowl-self...the haiku is the trace left by the dance, like footprints in the snow.

Re: What Do You Call It When...?

Originally Posted by Taigu

Wen we read Santoka s poems ( the beggar Soto zen monk and poet ), the constant merging of self and nature, of self and others, of self and object is striking. This merging is the awakened dance itself. Not to paint the mountain, not to draw or describe it, to be mountain- self, rain-self, bowl-self...the haiku is the trace left by the dance, like footprints in the snow.

Traces are the only things left, from his walks to the bottles he emptied, just traces...
what an example! the best and the worse... beyond one or another!

Thank you everyone, and sorry for these non-sense words!
gassho,
Jinyu