Thanks for this ditty. I subscribed to Blue Note records on the iPad. Its an App that costs 2 or 3 bucks a month. There was an Art Blakey tune on it the other day. He was really an amazing monster. Sometimes when I listen to him, I hear classic arena rock drum soloists. Dont go crazy on me but his power reminds me of Bonham. And he did this all in a Jazz arena. Art Blakey is one of my favorites.

__________________"I said, "I'm crazy ma, help me." She said, "I know how it feels son, 'Cause it runs in the family."

Question of great Guru's, I have heard the term Bop, Hard Bop and Bee Bop. What's the difference?

Thank you,

J

Bop is usually just short for Be bop

which is basically a style of music that guys like Bird, Diz, Bud Powell, and Monk started playing in NYC in the 1940s.
it is a style that came form the streets, and poverty, and raw emotion.

it has been said that they were trying to create something that the older players would not understand , and would not be able to follow the changes of, so they would not want to get on the band stand and blow.

as Jackie McLean tells it...these guys were basing what they were doing off of the playing of Lester Young , who played be bop style solos and phrases before the inception of be bop.
as did Louis Armstrong ...as much as he hated be bop he had a hand in creating it .

the drumming changed quite a bit as well as far as comping.
no longer was 4 on the floor from the swing era necessary and the bass drum would now comp thanks to guys like Kenny Clarke...... and a lot more of a triplet feel was introduced .
and the ride cymbal pattern started to break up quite a bit more than it had in the past

Hard Bop is something that followed be bop in the 1950s and early '60s

guys like Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers , the Coltrane Quartet, and Miles famous group with Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock,and Ron Carter .....were playing more modal stuff than the chord changes of early bebop and playing it a little harder and louder

which is basically a style of music that guys like Bird, Diz, Bud Powell, and Monk started playing in NYC in the 1940s.
it is a style that came form the streets, and poverty, and raw emotion.

it has been said that they were trying to create something that the older players would not understand , and would not be able to follow the changes of, so they would not want to get on the band stand and blow.

as Jackie McLean tells it...these guys were basing what they were doing off of the playing of Lester Young , who played be bop style solos and phrases before the inception of be bop.
as did Louis Armstrong ...as much as he hated be bop he had a hand in creating it .

the drumming changed quite a bit as well as far as comping.
no longer was 4 on the floor from the swing era necessary and the bass drum would now comp thanks to guys like Kenny Clarke...... and a lot more of a triplet feel was introduced .
and the ride cymbal pattern started to break up quite a bit more than it had in the past

Hard Bop is something that followed be bop in the 1950s and early '60s

guys like Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers , the Coltrane Quartet, and Miles famous group with Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock,and Ron Carter .....were playing more modal stuff than the chord changes of early bebop and playing it a little harder and louder

Bebop is "a style that came from the streets, and poverty, and raw emotion"?

catching up....over the past couple of weeks I've managed to read every post on this thread and listen to every link posted. While much of it is already in my album collection it is always
great to hear it again! I had forgotten all about the Jackie McClean album which I used to have and dearly loved....it got lost along the way.

My favorite link of all was from 8Mile....I'll put it here again for those interested....robots talking about cymbals....cracked me up!!!! (I ended up looking at a lot of other jazz robot
youtubes because of that link....Thanks!)

why would you mis quote me saying that I said hard bop is more modal?.....as if I said thats what hard bop is

....and did I ever mention a floor tom?

My mistake on the floor tom; I misread "floor from."

But: "guys like Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers.....were playing more modal stuff than the chord changes of early bebop and playing it a little harder and louder." (And the Coltrane quartet played hard bop?)

I don't understand that, and I don't understand the part about bebop being a style that came form the streets, and poverty, and raw emotion.

"the streets"?...Bop was born out of human curiosity, plain and simple.
Anyone who's played an instrument for any amount of time has played with themes and generally "noodled", discovering new sounds from their instrument.
Bop just took that to an art form and eventually, a varient of the Jazz idiom.Hard Bop simply describes attitude.
In the 90's we would've called it Aggressive Bop.
Watch how Blakey plays and you'll see what Hard Bop is all about.

"the streets"?...Bop was born out of human curiosity, plain and simple.
Anyone who's played an instrument for any amount of time has played with themes and generally "noodled", discovering new sounds from their instrument.
Bop just took that to an art form and eventually, a varient of the Jazz idiom.Hard Bop simply describes attitude.
In the 90's we would've called it Aggressive Bop.
Watch how Blakey plays and you'll see what Hard Bop is all about.

Elvis

yes the streets

it is a NYC thing, a harlem thing , a social commentary

and I don't think it had anything to do with curiosity...what were they curious about?

....it was expression, inspiration, and a changing of the guard and just happened to be spear headed by some of the most talented musicians in the history of music itself.
a style created by guys playing after hours in smokey rooms for little to zero money

these cats created bebop to leave behind the swing days of old and play something the old timers would not understand

they weren't curious....they were hungry

much like hip hop of the late 70s and 80s ...it was built on improvisation, collaboration , and the soul of the streets of NY city

What can I create using this theme?
What can I create dissecting these chord structures?
How can I interject an inverted Major 7th diminishing chord into the middle of a swung version of "Happy Birthday"...and actually make it work?!

Its like a conversation I once had with the manager of a music store we worked at.
Rock'n Roll is about a moment in time.
Jazz is about the story behind that moment in time.

What can I create using this theme?
What can I create dissecting these chord structures?
How can I interject an inverted Major 7th diminishing chord into the middle of a swung version of "Happy Birthday"...and actually make it work?!

Its like a conversation I once had with the manager of a music store we worked at.
Rock'n Roll is about a moment in time.
Jazz is about the story behind that moment in time.

Themes, structures, curiosity. That is where bop came from.

Elvis

I see what you mean

I was thinking from a completely different angle

and agreed ....although I'm not sure I would call it curiosity ...more just inspired to expand on things guys like Lester Young and Louis Arnstrong before them had played

Again, I can't express my appreciation for this thread enough. It's turned me on to some GREAT stuff!

I just made it into a Jazz Combo at school. Since the semester just started, we're picking tunes that we want to play, and we've had some ideas so far for non-jazz songs (Greasy G by Joshua Redman, Sticks and Stones by Ray Charles) but I think the professor is going to want a few swing songs.

This is where I need your guys help. I'm not a great jazz player. I can swing and I can play hits in a big band context, but I don't have great independence (can't really comp melodies as a result), I really can't play in 3/4 or 5/4, etc.

I just need some song suggestions that I can bring in next week that would be doable. Feel free to mention anything that isn't an overdone standard that could be easy enough to play on my part, and would work for the [somewhat odd] instrumentation.

A little while after I made my last post, it also dawned on me that we were actually saying the same thing, but in such different terms that neither of us realised it.
...guess the joke's on us! =)
I think what we can take away from our conversation, and really, this whole thread, is that Jazz is still accepted and respected by a sizeable section of the population, thus ensuring its survival for at least another generation.
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?uesto,

A classic bop tune that's easy to play is Moanin'. you can find it on an album called "Bags Groove".
Another one that is a little more R&B influenced is Lee Morgan's classic "The Sidewinder".
A lot of early bebop isn't too complicated, as it still shows heavy roots in dance music. Plus a lot of seems more "friendly" and less "introverted". This may make it more palatable for the general public.
Read up on the discography's of Dizzy Gillespie, Denzil Best and Tadd Dameron.
These guys were pioneers of the bebop movement.

A little while after I made my last post, it also dawned on me that we were actually saying the same thing, but in such different terms that neither of us realised it.
...guess the joke's on us! =)
I think what we can take away from our conversation, and really, this whole thread, is that Jazz is still accepted and respected by a sizeable section of the population, thus ensuring its survival for at least another generation.
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Elvis

Amen to that brother

in the spirit of those fine words I give you a side off one of my favorite records of all time

I've been listening to this a lot lately: David Gilmore Numerology "Live at Jazz Standard" Not for everyone but the more I listen the more I dig it! Did I mention Christian McBride and Jeff Tain Watts"?

And regarding the definition of "Bop"...I feel this is a very hard musical genre to describe in words...try to explain it to a non-Jazz friend without using musical examples so that he understands the concept....a bit like herding cats into a bag... ;) anyway here's the Meriam Webster on line definition...hope it helps a bit....(seems pretty open to interpretation to me) ;)

Definition of BOP
1
: jazz characterized by harmonic complexity, convoluted melodic lines, and constant shifting of accent and often played at very rapid tempos