I don't think lakeside was that vitrolic, to be honest. I agree with Buttercup in that with Javier, there's a bit of the underdog aspect. He left Morosov (which instantly means we want him to succeed), comes from a federation where skating isn't that big (and we'd like it to be so. I think Spain should definitely be hosting a GPF or Europeans sometime within the next five years) and seems to be a nice guy. If he has faults that we overlook, I'd argue it's because he was undermarked for years, unlike those other European skaters who seemed to be constantly overmarked no matter what they do.

I'm a little surprised at the veneration of Oda, though. His PCS don't deserve to be THAT high - I'd love to see someone explain why they feel otherwise.

I don't think lakeside was that vitrolic, to be honest. I agree with Buttercup in that with Javier, there's a bit of the underdog aspect. He left Morosov (which instantly means we want him to succeed), comes from a federation where skating isn't that big (and we'd like it to be so. I think Spain should definitely be hosting a GPF or Europeans sometime within the next five years) and seems to be a nice guy. If he has faults that we overlook, I'd argue it's because he was undermarked for years, unlike those other European skaters who seemed to be constantly overmarked no matter what they do.

I'm a little surprised at the veneration of Oda, though. His PCS don't deserve to be THAT high - I'd love to see someone explain why they feel otherwise.

On second read, I agree it wasn't all that vitrolic --but it did feel a bit thick -- I got that "How dare he get those marks?!?!" feeling out of it.

I think was simply surprised at the post because I personally never felt that way about him. (I did bring him up in the SC thread of being overscored relative to Oda, but in general I don't feel that he's all that overscored on the whole.) But if you look at my top GP SP scores thread (http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...s-in-GP-so-far) he's barely above the median as far as PCS. But again I can see the argument that 39 seems high considering that Kozuka and Abbott do not score that much better than him. But again, that's a case of underscoring on the part of Kozuka and Abbott.

And I was definitely referring to those "other European skaters" when I mentioned earlier that I felt others were getting much, much more over scored. Like why did Amodio get the third highest PCS in the SP today for that trainwreak of a SP?

As for Oda, I'm not asking for him to be in Patrick Chan territory, just not in striking distance of skaters who clearly do not have Oda's SS and transitions skills.

You can enjoy any skater. That’s your freedom. I’m not going to argue on who likes which skater and why.

Thank you - and I will. As for the last - I'm afraid, begging your pardon, that I thought you did basically just that. I said a few remarks about why I enjoyed him as a skater, to which you wrote a post full of.... negative comments, shall we call it? - in which you basically declared that there was nothing good about him at all. Now, this is a "who do you wish to win"-thread NOT a "who is the best skater in all of the world"-thread, so, you must excuse me if I thought it came pretty much out of the blue... As if, because You do not like him, then, no one else should either. Had I said a single word about his skating skills or PCS or what the judges should or should not reward, then, indeed, it would make more sense. But the fact remains that, I did not.

Also, what my - or anyone else's liking Javier - has to do with Patrick Chan is beyond me...

Thank you - and I will. As for the last - I'm afraid, begging your pardon, that I thought you did basically just that. I said a few remarks about why I enjoyed him as a skater, to which you wrote a post full of.... negative comments, shall we call it? - in which you basically declared that there was nothing good about him at all. Now, this is a "who do you wish to win"-thread NOT a "who is the best skater in all of the world"-thread, so, you must excuse me if I thought it came pretty much out of the blue... As if, because You do not like him, then, no one else should either. Had I said a single word about his skating skills or PCS or what the judges should or should not reward, then, indeed, it would make more sense. But the fact remains that, I did not.

Also, what my - or anyone else's liking Javier - has to do with Patrick Chan is beyond me...

But maybe that's heresy... maybe all roads lead to Patrick Chan.

Well perhaps the response is to the 22 posters who want him on the podium. Still, it is a dream podium thread, so not sure why we have to justify who we WISH to be on the podium.

Well perhaps the response is to the 22 posters who want him on the podium. Still, it is a dream podium thread, so not sure why we have to justify who we WISH to be on the podium.

I don't know why people should be afraid to justify their wishes. But LRK, lakeside wrote the post as a follow-up to Buttercup's post about Fernandez. I don't see how it was directed at you nor came out of the blue.

Well perhaps the response is to the 22 posters who want him on the podium. Still, it is a dream podium thread, so not sure why we have to justify who we WISH to be on the podium.

I don't see lakeside asking your justification. 22 posters (I was told) including me had similar opinions on Fernandez. lakeside had his/her opinions on Fernandez, too. I'm not so sure why people cannot say the opposite opinions?

...And there might be something to do with Patrick Chan - Fernandez beat him once.

I don't know why people should be afraid to justify their wishes. But LRK, lakeside wrote the post as a follow-up to Buttercup's post about Fernandez. I don't see how it was directed at you nor came out of the blue.

(went back to check) Hmmmmm.... I see what you mean; maybe you're right. Also, I didn't think it was directed at "me" per se, as at anyone who liked him; so as one who had gone on record as liking him, I thought it was perfectly fair play for me to respond. But, you certainly do have a point.

I don't see lakeside asking your justification. 22 posters (I was told) including me had similar opinions on Fernandez. lakeside had his/her opinions on Fernandez, too. I'm not so sure why people cannot say the opposite opinions?

...And there might be something to do with Patrick Chan - Fernandez beat him once.

Well as I said earlier, it seem a bit much considering the topic... I am definitely am not one to oppose different views, just felt sort out of place in this context.

And IP makes it 23. Fernandez, to me, as very good skating skills. Quads may be 4 revolutions in the air but it takes an incredible skater to take off and land correctly, and though he may not be as good as Patrick Chan, I think he is a total package, and he has been underscored in the past. I must say Oda is someone I find so borng, I know nothing about him. I never watch his skates. When Japan has Dai, Taka and Hanyu-whose a wild card but so exciting, well, I cannot bear Oda. I won't hurt his fans further. I just realized I need to go to the say something nice thread. If all these people wish javier well it is because they like his skating quite well, see much talent and want him to catch a major break. IMO which is not an exalted opinion with the skaters and other in the know fans on GS, Javier is top 5 or 6 in the world.

I sense his time has come. At least I hope so. I love Rippon and would love to se him on the podium. I use to wish for Jeremy, but I find I cannot even hope in my dream podium because these two men, with luscious skating skills, are usually splatting. I think Javier has a real chance to podium this year. Could he be such a lousy skater when so many here appreciate him? I thought he should be over Oda. Most boring skater (male) Japan ever produced. Sorry Nobinari. Maybe change some programs. No vitriol, he just does nothing for me, ever. Maybe Orser could bring out something in Oda. I should go watch his skates but he is at best the 4th japanese male. Javier is someone I want to watch. I think his Chaplin is not easy to do-to be a character throughout and skate a CoP program is not attempted these days too much.

YMMV but I've seen skaters with way worse SS than Javier and yes perhaps he could score a few points fewer, but I'm not losing sleep over it considering that other skaters get much more over scored in this arena.

And I was definitely referring to those "other European skaters" when I mentioned earlier that I felt others were getting much, much more over scored. Like why did Amodio get the third highest PCS in the SP today for that trainwreak of a SP?

Since you mention other skaters, I also looked at the most recent GP event, i.e. TEB LP, and found among the eight competitors four of them – Jeremy, Amodio, Mura, and Verner – have much better skating skills than Fernandez. TEB is the weakest of the six GP events, and nobody is going to GPF. Even at this weak field, half of the partipants have better skating skills than Fernandez! How much worse could Fernandez’ SS be? Plus, “skaters with way worse SS than Fernandez” do not get PCS as high as him. Fernandez with his poor SS should never receive PCS of 39 and over 80.

And since you mention train wreck skate, Fernandez also had a train wreck LP at 2012 worlds but his PCS was 2.36 points higher than that of Kozuka. How was that possible? Fernandez has been consistently overscored for two seasons now, and it’s not fair to all other skaters with better skating skills.

Originally Posted by Mrs. P

And I suppose he could up that program by repeating 3A instead, but I don't think it takes away from the fact that it is a point-getting layout.

You know what? Fernandez has been there before. I did some research and found that last season he repeated 3a and 3t – another strange layout – but he failed to land his 3a and 3a combos half of the time. Plus, he’s not good with 3lz, 3f, and 3lo. So he decides to repeat 4t and 3s this season. No matter what layout, Fernandez still needs to prove he can put up TES of over 90 for more than once in a season. So far, his highest TES is only 86.

Originally Posted by skateluvr

I thought he should be over Oda. Most boring skater (male) Japan ever produced. Sorry Nobinari. Maybe change some programs. No vitriol, he just does nothing for me, ever. Maybe Orser could bring out something in Oda. I should go watch his skates but he is at best the 4th japanese male. Javier is someone I want to watch. I think his Chaplin is not easy to do-to be a character throughout and skate a CoP program is not attempted these days too much.

I’m not an Oda fan, so it doesn’t hurt me if you think he’s boring. But you can’t deny that his skating skills are much better than Fernandez. And since you mention Chaplin program, Oda had a better and more original Chaplin program, and Fernandez largely imitates Oda’s and B/S’s Chaplin programs.

You know what? Fernandez has been there before. I did some research and found that last season he repeated 3a and 3t – another strange layout – but he failed to land his 3a and 3a combos half of the time. Plus, he’s not good with 3lz, 3f, and 3lo. So he decides to repeat 4t and 3s this season. No matter what layout, Fernandez still needs to prove he can put up TES of over 90 for more than once in a season. So far, his highest TES is only 86.

And last season, only one skater -- Hanyu -- had a TES above 90 at Worlds, so I'm not sure why you're placing that expectation on Fernandez. He does not need 90+ to medal at Worlds and definitely not at Euros. (Florent medaled with TES under 80.)

That's all I'll say on that matter. This is way off the topic for this thread. Carry on, people.

And last season, only one skater -- Hanyu -- had a TES above 90 at Worlds, so I'm not sure why you're placing that expectation on Fernandez. He does not need 90+ to medal at Worlds and definitely not at Euros. (Florent medaled with TES under 80.)

That's all I'll say on that matter. This is way off the topic for this thread. Carry on, people.

I’m willing to move on, but since you mention TES, I think you can’t just look at Worlds and GP series. There are more competitions in a season, e.g., Finlandia Trophy was held in October, just two weeks before SA. Both Yuzru and Ricky put up TESs of over 90 there, while Fernandez had another train wreck LP and singled/doubled four jumps and his TES was only 73.

Then Fernandez got PCS inflation again – his TES was 19 points lower than Ricky’s (!) and his SS not better than Ricky’s, but he received PCS of 81.5 – 8 points higher than his own TES (!) and 4 points higher than Ricky’s PCS. Fernandez is definitely one of the most overscored skaters now, and he’s not consistent at all.

I’m willing to move on, but since you mention TES, I think you can’t just look at Worlds and GP series. There are more competitions in a season, e.g., Finlandia Trophy was held in October, just two weeks before SA. Both Yuzru and Ricky put up TESs of over 90 there, while Fernandez had another train wreck LP and singled/doubled four jumps and his TES was only 73.

Then Fernandez got PCS inflation again – his TES was 19 points lower than Ricky’s (!) and his SS not better than Ricky’s, but he received PCS of 81.5 – 8 points higher than his own TES (!) and 4 points higher than Ricky’s PCS. Fernandez is definitely one of the most overscored skaters now, and he’s not consistent at all.

You ought to start a thread on whether Fernandez is overscored, then. Better to discuss it on its own thread than to clog up what's in essence a podium wishlist for skating fans.

And last season, only one skater -- Hanyu -- had a TES above 90 at Worlds, so I'm not sure why you're placing that expectation on Fernandez. He does not need 90+ to medal at Worlds and definitely not at Euros. (Florent medaled with TES under 80.)

That's all I'll say on that matter. This is way off the topic for this thread. Carry on, people.

Originally Posted by Mrs. P

You ought to start a thread on whether Fernandez is overscored, then. Better to discuss it on its own thread than to clog up what's in essence a podium wishlist for skating fans.

Like I said, I was willing to move on, but because you came back to me with that post of yours, I had to reply to your comment. If you did not want to discuss this topic anymore, then you should not have started it in post #72.