So if we tax the rich they will leave the country and go where exactly?

Let's also not forget, the US has the greatest, most extensive, all powerful government the planet has known since the roman empire. The benefits of large government far outweigh the negatives I would say.

As far as global presence I think that's true, but that is debatable in terms of what the government can do and does within the confines of its own borders.

Honestly for me it's not even the almost unbelievable myopia of the ideas that's so galling, it's just the complete dearth of creativity involved.

To me it's the purest form of obscenity. The most extreme slap in the face to human ability. Here you have this brain, this incredibly amazing and complex organism capable of tremendous feats and still full of unlocked mysteries. Yet in the course of what will probably be an entire lifetime it will have realized exactly none of its potential, a complete and utter waste of consciousness.

This may be the most obtuse ad hominem I've seen on Ars to date. Most lowbrow posters lack the patience for the baroque.

naschbac wrote:

You don't have the two necessary braincells to rub together to even imagine how one might maintain something we actually have a well understood word for.

Clearly your patience has limits.

naschbac wrote:

You don't eat guys like me for breakfast or lunch, because guys like me control your food supply, your water supply, and hold your fragile livelihood in our hand, because we're bigger, stronger, and more ruthless than you are. We have the will and the means to make sure you don't ever get a chance to try and do any of the things you want to. We're sociopaths and psychopaths of the first order, and as a weird twist of irony... human biology seems to wire you to find guys like me charming and charismatic, so you and other people *want* to thrust power and influence onto us.

To think I almost missed the thread where naschbac aspires to sociopathy.

naschbac wrote:

With the exception of about two or three other people on here who are actually economists there's probably nobody who has spent more time, money, and resources studying micro and macro economics around here than me. And I don't mean the sort that you're proffering here. I mean like the actual research papers on labor mobility, trade policy, industrial policy, monetary policy, financial transactions, capital flows, information asymmetry, etc. The sort of analysis that's only been possible due to massive amounts of data collection and ever better computers and software models to sift it all. The sort of things that didn't even exist when Mises finally died, let alone when he actually formulated most of his ridiculous fantasies.

I think the submission to a higher power/authority -- God, collective, master, government -- stems from the evolutionary-based fear of uncertainty, and through that, of death.

But submission to a corporation with a private army is somehow different?

What submission? Do you "submit" to your hired body-guards? I've fired mine if they'd so much shined my shoes wrong in the morning.

All human interactions can be divided into two realms: (1) voluntary, free, economic, and (2) coercive, aggressive, political. Each of us stands before a choice: Which realm of human interaction will I employ as means toward reaching my subjectively valued ends? Naschbac has clearly made his choice (realm #2) and he is not ashamed to admit it. What about you?

Defense (a sense of safety) is a good widely demanded by humans, just like, say, food. One could say that food would be even more necessary, hence demanded, than safety, yet we don't conclude that therefore it must be provided by a 2nd realm monopoly. Explaining to you how privately produced defense would be ten times better and ten times cheaper than the one provided by a monopolist, is like explaining to a USSR comrade that privately provided groceries would be ten times better and ten times cheaper than the bread provided to him by Stalin.

They are completely different in one crucial aspect: Pooling capital/property into a corporation is voluntary. Forming a government is (by definition) coercive and aggressive to the ones who do not agree with the terms of your "social contract". By all means, the free market allows you to pool your property with the property of like-minded others and build yourself a socialist or spaghetti-monster worshiping "state" -- just not on my property, and without asking me to participate against my will. Just keep your interactions within the voluntary realm and we can live side by side in peace, deal?

No deal. We have bigger guns than you and will confiscate your property for the greater good.

You and naschbac are two cute but extremely confused critters. You are not allowed to get nowhere near those big guns. There's a big "OURS" painted on them so suckers like yourself think they have any say as to where they will be pointed.

I love how hf1's counter examples destroy his own stance, and he doesn't even see it.

Because libertarians are delusionally convinced that they are the only one being unfairly held back by regulation. They imagine what they could do if only the ebul .gov didn't tie their hands and enslave them. They are incapable of recognizing that freedom from regulation for them means freedom from regulation for everyone.

They pay lip service to free markets but what they really mean is, "Free market for me and rules for everyone else."

Awesome, and your idiotic libertarian fantasies will have solved exactly none of that, and instead will just trade one set of power brokers for another. Congratulations, you've replaced Barack Obama with Bernie Madoff and Al Capone. Oh the sweet taste of victory!

You are a sociopath -- obsessed with power and coercion as you see them everywhere around you. Do you, perchance, walk straight through children and old ladies as you walk down the street instead of negotiating a pass with them? What have your parents done to you?

Quote:

My rant above has nothing to do with what society ought to look like or that people do or don't share my views about anything at all. I don't give a shit if you disagree with me. Out of some disagreement might come some better ideas.

I thought you didn't care about anyone else's ideas. You've got the guns so it's going to be your way or the highway, no?

Quote:

My rant above is about the extreme lack of creativity or insight that is always and ever present in the meandering "freedom" vomit that is libertarianism.

Freedom induces vomit in you? Are you into bondage and S&M, too? Not that there's anything wrong with it.

Quote:

To cite a specific example, it takes a person with a functioning brain about one-half of a split fucking second to come up with a million holes in the arguments put forward, ie. the bevy of ways people suggested I be able to keep my fire department monopoly and keep you from competing.

Your "million holes" all distill to: "And what if I killed you? How are you going to have your freedom then, huh?" Razor sharp. Disarming. You win! I sleep safe at night knowing Bushrombama is making sure someone like you doesn't kill me.

Quote:

Now I'm the last person on here to reject an idea simply because it has obvious flaws, so long as those flaws combined with its benefits are at least on balance better than the status quo. The problem with libertarianism, and especially the moronic religious sort that you're slinging here, is that it has *all* of the flaws of the status quo, plus a whole new list of flaws, and no new notable benefits. On balance it's obviously worse. It's not even just a lateral trade for one kind of bad for another.

Values are subjective. It may not be better for you but please allow me to make that decision for myself. That's the only thing I ask. You see, in my utopia you can be as enslaved, scared, protected, and bonded as you want to whatever master you choose for yourself. You guys can chain yourself up to your ears and have a go at it in your own basement.

Quote:

I don't have to be afraid of this, because a bunch of us in U.S. Corp already banded together to simply take our money back from you, and your private army isn't strong enough to stop us.

How did my money become yours?

Quote:

So setup your own economy built on "hf1 bucks" and defend your resources from U.S. Corp, because we're coming for you whether you like it or not, and we're doing so voluntarily.

You are confused, comrade. US Corp is not even 0.000000000001% yours. You are a pimple, a zit on their a** which they can decide to pop the moment you start itching them wrong way. And in the slim chance that you (yourself) are able to do what you claim US Corp would be doing in your name that would be as "voluntary" as rape.

You are confused, comrade. US Corp is not even 0.000000000001% yours. You are a pimple, a zit on their a** which they can decide to pop the moment you start itching them wrong way. And in the slim chance that you (yourself) are able to do what you claim US Corp would be doing in your name that would be as "voluntary" as rape.

Awesome, and your idiotic libertarian fantasies will have solved exactly none of that, and instead will just trade one set of power brokers for another. Congratulations, you've replaced Barack Obama with Bernie Madoff and Al Capone. Oh the sweet taste of victory!

You are a sociopath -- obsessed with power and coercion as you see them everywhere around you. Do you, perchance, walk straight through children and old ladies as you walk down the street instead of negotiating a pass with them? What have your parents done to you?

It doesn't really matter. The problem is I absolutely exist, and I'm absolutely in your community, so you're going to have to find a way to deal with me running my racket, enforcing my will by whatever means at my disposal, and the fact that there are a lot of other people just like me.

So get to it. How's your fantasy going to non-coercively quarantine me, remove me, or otherwise compel me to play by your rules or behave in a way that's always 100% fair and equitable?

It should be mentioned that much of the business of farming and the price of food isn't really "free market" in the U.S.

Free markets don't really exist. They're like the economics equivalent of a physicist's perfect spheres: a theoretical abstraction that's approximated to more or less of an extent by different phenomena that actually occur in reality.

People make the mistake of taking what's a relatively useful analysis tool ("hey, it's really hard to model real markets ith all their complexities, so let's simplify some variables and try for a good approximation"), and turn it on its head: trying to shoehorn reality into their idealized, somewhat simplistic model.

Then they become angry at people who point this out, vexed that others are not able to regard the possibility of perfection that they find themselves privy to. They can get quite incensed about this. Which is why they tend to be dangerous in positions of power.

The god-man just wants you to live your life in peace. The egaliatarian just wants you to live your life in equality. The libertarian just wants you to live your life in freedom. But none of them take too kindly to you bucking their system

At the end of the day the reality is that human society is an issue of management and tuning, not of deep philosophical truth or fundamentals. A dash of principles here, a dose of practicality there, a good measure of compassion, a healthy bit of self-interest, some humility, some pride, some temperance, some lust for life, and maybe a decent glass of wine now and then. We may all disagree on the proportions.. jostle a bit here and there and about how we have too much of one or too little of the other.. but we all have cause to distrust the absolutists, the peddlers of Truth, the snake oil soothsayers.

Anyway, yeah.. you're right. The US farm market is one of the poorer approximations of a free market.

Why is it libertarians are almost always Americans? They just out do not exist as a viable political group anywhere else in the world. Honestly, if libertarian philosophy was attractive, intelligent or even plain smart you'd have hordes of people claiming to be libertarians but they're almost always in the sub 1% of political groups.

So hf1 in the marketplace of ideas explain that. Explain why almost no one subscribes to libertarian ideology if it's so smart? Last time I checked there is no regulation on thinking. There are tons of libertarian leaning websites out there and thanks to regulations there is net neutrality so anyone can see anyones website. Why aren't hordes more people convinced?

OK? See that? See the question? Answer it please.

Pls simmer down. I don't give a rat's a** how many people share my view of the world. I have my own brain that has served me pretty darn well so far -- from experience, the further it has taken me from the consensus of the lemmings the bigger the profits have been.

There have been times when almost everyone thought that the Earth was flat, or that it was the center of the universe, or that it is God that is throwing bolts of lightning from the heavens. More recently, there have been plantations where 99.99% of the slaves have thought that their master is taking perfectly good care of them. They'd probably ridicule that one "idiot" who tried to tell them the world out there beyond the fence -- uncertain and unpredictable as it is -- would be vastly preferable to staying on the plantation.

People make the mistake of taking what's a relatively useful analysis tool ("hey, it's really hard to model real markets ith all their complexities, so let's simplify some variables and try for a good approximation"), and turn it on its head: trying to shoehorn reality into their idealized, somewhat simplistic model.

This is a good way of putting it. The free market model is useful but it's obvious to everyone that our markets aren't exactly like that. One reaction is to say "well, let's figure out those differences and construct models that are more accurate." That's how you get to a reasonable theory of economics.

Another reaction is to try to chop off all the parts of reality that don't fit. And that's libertarianism.

You are confused, comrade. US Corp is not even 0.000000000001% yours. You are a pimple, a zit on their a** which they can decide to pop the moment you start itching them wrong way. And in the slim chance that you (yourself) are able to do what you claim US Corp would be doing in your name that would be as "voluntary" as rape.

You and naschbac are two cute but extremely confused critters. You are not allowed to get nowhere near those big guns. There's a big "OURS" painted on them so suckers like yourself think they have any say as to where they will be pointed.

Let's also not forget, the US has the greatest, most extensive, all powerful government the planet has known since the roman empire. The benefits of large government far outweigh the negatives I would say.

That's extremely debatable and depends if you look at micro/macro control.

There's a rather strong argument that Nazi Germany was a lot more extensive and powerful in a very important realm, namely that of it's own constituency.

Let's also not forget, the US has the greatest, most extensive, all powerful government the planet has known since the roman empire. The benefits of large government far outweigh the negatives I would say.

That's extremely debatable and depends if you look at micro/macro control.

There's a rather strong argument that Nazi Germany was a lot more extensive and powerful in a very important realm, namely that of it's own constituency.

Well that's true. I'm sure the subjugated and brainwashed north Koreans think their great leader is the best ever, similar to any citizens who are oppressed by despotic regimes. However, the USA is different, and not completely without redemption. Maybe if you guys give Obama a second term, he'll set things right again. Who knows!

Let's also not forget, the US has the greatest, most extensive, all powerful government the planet has known since the roman empire. The benefits of large government far outweigh the negatives I would say.

That's extremely debatable and depends if you look at micro/macro control.

There's a rather strong argument that Nazi Germany was a lot more extensive and powerful in a very important realm, namely that of it's own constituency.

Well that's true. I'm sure the subjugated and brainwashed north Koreans think their great leader is the best ever, similar to any citizens who are oppressed by despotic regimes. However, the USA is different, and not completely without redemption. Maybe if you guys give Obama a second term, he'll set things right again. Who knows!

Why is it libertarians are almost always Americans? They just out do not exist as a viable political group anywhere else in the world. Honestly, if libertarian philosophy was attractive, intelligent or even plain smart you'd have hordes of people claiming to be libertarians but they're almost always in the sub 1% of political groups.

So hf1 in the marketplace of ideas explain that. Explain why almost no one subscribes to libertarian ideology if it's so smart? Last time I checked there is no regulation on thinking. There are tons of libertarian leaning websites out there and thanks to regulations there is net neutrality so anyone can see anyones website. Why aren't hordes more people convinced?

OK? See that? See the question? Answer it please.

Pls simmer down. I don't give a rat's a** how many people share my view of the world. I have my own brain that has served me pretty darn well so far -- from experience, the further it has taken me from the consensus of the lemmings the bigger the profits have been.

There have been times when almost everyone thought that the Earth was flat, or that it was the center of the universe, or that it is God that is throwing bolts of lightning from the heavens. More recently, there have been plantations where 99.99% of the slaves have thought that their master is taking perfectly good care of them. They'd probably ridicule that one "idiot" who tried to tell them the world out there beyond the fence -- uncertain and unpredictable as it is -- would be vastly preferable to staying on the plantation.

So what is your point with this question?

It's called the marketplace of ideas. If an idea is good enough sooner or later it'll get acceptance.

Quote:

Proponents theorize that memes may evolve by natural selection in a manner analogous to that of biological evolution. Memes do this through the processes of variation, mutation, competition and inheritance, each of which influence a meme's reproductive success. Memes spread through the behaviors that they generate in their hosts. Memes that propagate less prolifically may become extinct, while others may survive, spread and (for better or for worse) mutate.

Geddit? Libertarianism isn't a successful meme... In fact your antagonistic attitude is doing more in killing the propagation than any of us arguing against it. Well done. Bravo, bravo mister ITG.

Awesome, and your idiotic libertarian fantasies will have solved exactly none of that, and instead will just trade one set of power brokers for another. Congratulations, you've replaced Barack Obama with Bernie Madoff and Al Capone. Oh the sweet taste of victory!

You are a sociopath -- obsessed with power and coercion as you see them everywhere around you. Do you, perchance, walk straight through children and old ladies as you walk down the street instead of negotiating a pass with them? What have your parents done to you?

It doesn't really matter. The problem is I absolutely exist, and I'm absolutely in your community, so you're going to have to find a way to deal with me running my racket, enforcing my will by whatever means at my disposal, and the fact that there are a lot of other people just like me.

So get to it. How's your fantasy going to non-coercively quarantine me, remove me, or otherwise compel me to play by your rules or behave in a way that's always 100% fair and equitable?

And you'll propagandize the population, sponsoring Libertarian thinktanks & institutes, as well, raving against big Gubmint, which is the only thing really standing in your way... your power is already so great that you think it's time to drown govt in the bathtub... remaining largely anonymous at the same time, exploiting various legalisms.

You are confused, comrade. US Corp is not even 0.000000000001% yours. You are a pimple, a zit on their a** which they can decide to pop the moment you start itching them wrong way. And in the slim chance that you (yourself) are able to do what you claim US Corp would be doing in your name that would be as "voluntary" as rape.

Raped by the 4D Space Lizards, Masters Of The New World Order?

No, those are the good ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUS1m5MSt9k

Im sure on that aliens planet he was able by himself to construct his spaceship, that video was so full of shit lol.

It's also a lie. Nobody pays that much in taxes. Every one of these libertarian simpletons acts like they pay the top marginal rate for every dollar, with no lower rates, no deduction, no exclusions, and no credits. It's not only propaganda, but terribly unsophisticated lying.

2011 was not a leap year, so it had 365 days.I just pulled out my final pay stub and divided my income by 365 to get daily income.I then subtracted my net from my gross (after adding back in pre-tax deductions), then divided that by the result of the previous calculation.

The result? 128.81 days were spent paying taxes. My tax bill was covered around 7:30pm on May 10, 2011.

This accounts only for my W2 job, not the taxes I paid for my S-Corp. If you've got a better way to do the math, do tell.

How much did you actually pay? You know.. after deductions? Please don't act as if you didn't get a refund. And aside from that, aren't you married? Try the same calculation based on both your gross incomes.

And you're still several weeks off from the claimed co-called bullshit liberation date, even though you live in what is probably THE highest tax combination in the country.

As for the S-Corp, business expenses reduce your gross appreciably.

At the end of the year, I very much doubt you actually pay over 40% of AGI, let alone gross income. Seriously.. what are the top marginal rates paid by New Yorkers? Do you pay anywhere near that? You aren't addressing the issue, that this jackass says he pays the top marginal rate all the way up.

It's also a lie. Nobody pays that much in taxes. Every one of these libertarian simpletons acts like they pay the top marginal rate for every dollar, with no lower rates, no deduction, no exclusions, and no credits. It's not only propaganda, but terribly unsophisticated lying.

2011 was not a leap year, so it had 365 days.I just pulled out my final pay stub and divided my income by 365 to get daily income.I then subtracted my net from my gross (after adding back in pre-tax deductions), then divided that by the result of the previous calculation.

The result? 128.81 days were spent paying taxes. My tax bill was covered around 7:30pm on May 10, 2011.

This accounts only for my W2 job, not the taxes I paid for my S-Corp. If you've got a better way to do the math, do tell.

If you stopped working on May 10 for the rest of the year when would you have paid your taxes by? Your tax bill is covered partially each pay check give or take however you want to withhold. You receive money each pay check, you did not turn over every pay check until May 10 to the government then finally have money to buy food and shelter after that. Stop acting like an idiot. You are smarter than that.

I still want to know how much of a refund he got, how much he sheltered at the end of the year in pre-tax retirement and other accounts, and how much his wife's earnings affect this date. Use of a W2 is a nice dodge since that does not reflect actual end of year payments.

Certainly, you're correct that we're paying taxes in little bits and pieces, but many things happen in little bits and pieces and can be compared in interesting and understandable ways once you look at the totals. Yes, the first 128 days of the year are not going exclusively to the taxman, but (except when people are feigning indignation) there is little difference between using the days on a calendar and the area on a pie chart. I've yet to understand people who think I (and others) should pay more in taxes but who object when we try and point out that we do pay a non-trivial amount already. When I was working as a temp, I often thought of my monthly rent and other expenses on a per diem basis. If I pulled in at least that much, I knew I was doing ok.

I am married, filing jointly, but my wife had no income last year (she worked an unpaid internship). Outside of $2500 in student loan interest (out of $8,811.26 paid) and the standard deductions, I don't get much of a break. I don't have kids and rent my apartment. My S-Corp is a profit-making enterprise; I end up paying a small amount of additional taxes for that work at the end of the year. I take slightly more out of my W2 work than I could probably get away with since it (usually) eliminates the need to file quarterlies. You say I'm not addressing "the issue", but I have no desire to try and determine whether someone else is wrong on the internet. I crunched my own numbers and saw that the "liberation date" wasn't, in my case, too far off. Have you done the same?

In light of the Facebook IPO, I've heard that Eduardo Saverin has actually reapplied for American citizenship and is hoping his work visa application will be fast tracked. He's finding very limited fast-food opportunities in Singapore but he sees a panorama of opportunities in the USA. Always ambitious, he figures an assistant manager position is a solid 3 year goal.

Once you get out of that tax net, you will never want to put yourself back into it. No, the next thing he will be pondering is where will he die to avoid a wealth/death tax.

The irony is that even Singapore is slowly realizing that it is not sustainable to base their country on supporting a population of tax avoiders and laundered money from drug lords, government officials, and despots forever. They have been forced to make the logical conclusion to increase the tax base. Of course, there are no shortage of smaller tax havens that will never yield to the pressures of the greater world powers.

...there is little difference between using the days on a calendar and the area on a pie chart. I've yet to understand people who think I (and others) should pay more in taxes but who object when we try and point out that we do pay a non-trivial amount already.

Who are no doubt many of the same people who in other sub-forums often admonish people to never look at the monthly payments, and rather consider the total cost of something instead to determine value or affordability.