Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I see a lot of potential in her character...for example I can totally see Mary helping the two to break in somewhere and later on, when Lestrade turns up with "descriptions" of the two or blurry video footage, I can totally see her lying about them having been with her the whole evening. I mean, I know she has to die eventually (or vanish, or whatever)...but there is also so much they can do with her in the meantime.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

That's what I call selective argumentation...for example, the writer totally ignored the fact that Mary was the one who called the ambulance. Or that John would have realized that the stick is empty if he looked at it, and even if he decided against it, there was a high likelyhood that Sherlock might do it at one point (in fact, perhaps he did). And yes, naturally Mary does look worried when Sherlock wakes up...she didn't have the opportunity to speak to him, yet. And why should Sherlock push Mary and John together if he doesn't trust her with John?

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

I see a lot of potential in her character...for example I can totally see Mary helping the two to break in somewhere and later in, when Lestrade turns up with "descriptions" of the two or blurry video footage, I can totally see her lying about them having been with her the whole evening. I mean, I know she has to die eventually (or vanish, or whatever)...but there is also so much they can do with her in the meantime.

But if she's helping them to break in somewhere there would be 3 descriptions or 3 blurry figures on the video; she would end up having to tell Lestrade that the blonde one definitely wasn't her, which probably wouldn't work very well when it comes to establishing an alibi. And unless they propose to leave the baby by itself they would have to have a babysitter, which completely destroys any opportunity for a cover up.

And we inevitably come back to the fact that whatever she can do, Sherlock can do better. She's clever, but Sherlock is genius level. She is manipulative- for example her brief conversation with Holmes senior is designed to position herself as 'the sane one' in the next generation- but both Sherlock and Mycroft do that so much better as well...

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Who says that she comes with them? She makes the plan and then organizes the alibi. Perhaps she even ensures that there are other witnesses who believe that Sherlock and John were there the whole evening.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

Who says that she comes with them? She makes the plan and then organizes the alibi. Perhaps she even ensures that there are other witnesses who believe that Sherlock and John were there the whole evening.

But any plan that Sherlock makes will be better than Mary's. Mary is clever. Sherlock is a genius. There is a difference between the two.

You also seem to overlook the fact that Conan Doyle has already created the one person who was more intelligent than Sherlock; his brother Mycroft.

If Sherlock can't think of a plan then he always has his elder brother to fall back on; there is absolutely no way in which Mycroft would allow his own security to be jeopardised by Mary Watson. And it would jeopardise his security to have his brother's alibi depending on a known, probably foreign, agent who may or may not have retired, who cannot even go into court to give evidence because she is a fake.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Let's see...Sherlock's plan to break into the office was a fake engagement. Mary climbed through the window and if not for Sherlock, she would have been able to kill Magnusson with noone being any wise.

Sorry, but I think when it comes to spying, her skill-set is better than Sherlock's. He is better in deducing, though.

This is not a question of intelligence but of skill set. I wouldn't expect Sherlock to bake a cake either - that's something Mrs. Hudson can do. That and typing.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

Let's see...Sherlock's plan to break into the office was a fake engagement. Mary climbed through the window and if not for Sherlock, she would have been able to kill Magnusson with noone being any wise.

Sorry, but I think when it comes to spying, her skill-set is better than Sherlock's. He is better in deducing, though.

This is not a question of intelligence but of skill set. I wouldn't expect Sherlock to bake a cake either - that's something Mrs. Hudson can do. That and typing.

We have no evidence that Sherlock wants her assistance in murdering people, and that is all that she has a skill set in.

Strangely enough, ninja assassins climbing skyscrapers in order to climb through nonexistent windows do not feature prominently in Sherlock's life; for that matter they do not feature prominently in anyone's life. Should he need one at any point in the future I'm sure that Mycroft would lend him one, but it's ludicrous to suggest that Moffliss would destroy the canon by turning Sherlock into a man capable of behaving like Mary.

They play games with it but they never tarnish the essential core; that is why we love it...

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Canon Sherlock breaks into houses or sneaks around where he shouldn't be in multiple stories (The copper beeches, The illustrious Client, The Colourman case). Which would be way more difficult nowadays, so her skill set might come in handy.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

Canon Sherlock breaks into houses or sneaks around where he shouldn't be in multiple stories (The copper beeches, The illustrious Client, The Colourman case). Which would be way more difficult nowadays, so her skill set might come in handy.

A good point. I think that Sherlock would not be opposed to making use of Mary's skills on future cases if they will help him get closer to the solution. Sherlock has never been one to not do something just because it is illegal either in the canon or this series; although I do believe there are limits to that. I do think that Sherlock would oppose indiscriminate killing though.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

besleybean wrote:

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

The problem is that Mary sees killing people as the best solution to her problems; on the most banal level I don't think that Sherlock could live with himself if he let her anywhere near one of his cases knowing that her idea of being a troubleshooter is shooting the person who's causing trouble.

For that matter, Mycroft would be exceedingly vulnerable if she was allowed access to state secrets, and that is pretty much what at least the beginning of the next series is about. Once the plane turns back, because England needs Sherlock Holmes, it is a matter of State, and Mary cannot be allowed anywhere near it. That's a best case scenario; on a worst case scenario she is linked to whoever has arranged the apparent return of Moriarty, and she really needs to be quarantined for everybody's safety...

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

IMO, Mary is no doctor's wife material, but she has everything, it takes, to be a brilliant adversary of Sherlock. I'm deliberately not saying villain, but adversary. And she might be more dangerous than Moriarty and CAM together, because she's acting out of love, not hatred. Oh, it was a brilliant move to make her pregnant, and we go all squishy on her! But there's no way, she was just a part time nurse the last couple of years. She's still a crack shot, she still can climb skyscrapers. That kind of thing needs practice and being in shape. A pregnant part time nurse couldn't do that.

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Let's assume, that Moriarty is dead and stays dead, has no one wondered, that they have to introduce a completely new villain again next season, since CAM, while promissing, was killed of pretty quickly. We hardly knew him. But Mary was featured in all new episodes, and she would make a great adversary , as I wrote in my comment above.I'm in the faction, that assumes, the Moriarty show was an elaborate trick to get Sherlock back from exile. And, while I first rejected this thought, I'm coming round to the theory, that Sherlock has arranged it himself, since he cannot fulfil his vow to protect the Watson family, if he's on a suicide mission in Eastern Europe. He came back from near death, when he realized, John might be in danger. Do you really think, he wouldn't find a way out of exile pretty quickly? The question is of course, who, if he was behind it, helped him to pull off that trick?

Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

besleybean wrote:

Mycroft?

He's one candidate, but I'm not a friend of always having Mycroft as deus ex machina, when something happens, that can't be easily explained. Though he certainly wouldn't want Sherlock on a suicide mission.