Apple advises use of Mac anti-virus

While Mac viruses are still less prevalent than their Windows equivalents, Apple is concerned enough to recommend the use of anti-virus programs.

A recent spate of rather ineffective viruses for Apple's Mac OS X platform has the company worried enough to recommend anti-virus programs to its users – a volte-face for many Mac fans.

According to ITWire's Stephen Withers, Apple has quietly been updating its knowledge base with an entry which “encourages the widespread use of multiple antivirus utilities so that virus programmers have more than one application to circumvent, thus making the whole virus writing process more difficult.”

While not actually going all-out and saying that the Mac platform is vulnerable to viruses – indeed, many Mac users consider the enhanced security of the platform to be one of its main selling points over the more popular Windows OS – the company does go on to recommend three different packages – Intego VirusBarrier, Norton Anti-Virus, and McAfee VirusScan – which can help protect your Mac from those nasty virus writers.

This change of heart from the company seems to be a direct response to the spread of the RSPlug trojan, which is often found disguised as a key generator or software cracking tool. The trojan is designed to alter the configuration of an infected system to use a hijacked DNS server, potentially diverting users to phishing sites in place of legitimate destinations. In a move that mirrors advancements made in the world of Windows malware, the most recent version preceeding the anti-virus advice from Apple featured an auto-downloading update process through which the virus author could distribute new and potentially more damaging payloads to already infected systems.

While the underlying technology behind Mac OS X – BSD – is considered by many to be more secure than the Windows codebase, no system is perfect. Although viruses are far less common on the platform, it's always better to be safe than sorry – and with reasonable protection available free of charge, I would advise Mac users to join their Windows brethren in the warm, fuzzy embrace of the virus scanners.

Any Mac users planning to take Apple's advice and don some protection for their gigabytes, or is the support article just a case of the company covering their backsides? Share your thoughts over in the forums.

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194 Comments

Mac OS X may be open-source UNIX underneath, but the developers have intertwined that base with gobs and gobs of proprietary GUI bloat, just as bad as Microsoft. This isn't surprising at all.. And I'll enjoy laughing at the rabid Mac fanboys. Thanks for this. :P

Originally Posted by bowmanMac OS X may be open-source UNIX underneath, but the developers have intertwined that base with gobs and gobs of proprietary GUI bloat, just as bad as Microsoft. This isn't surprising at all.. And I'll enjoy laughing at the rabid Mac fanboys. Thanks for this. :P

Get some facts, the Mac UI uses far less resources than Vista and it being UNIX all processes get a look in at the CPU instead of the UI causing performance issues....

Originally Posted by p3nGet some facts, the Mac UI uses far less resources than Vista and it being UNIX all processes get a look in at the CPU instead of the UI causing performance issues....

Get YOUR fact straight, please. Vista Aero UI is rendered on the GPU not CPU. The only thing that the CPU does is render the content of the Window, but that is the program that needs to be changed to render itself on the GPU rather than the CPU.

Originally Posted by p3nGet some facts, the Mac UI uses far less resources than Vista and it being UNIX all processes get a look in at the CPU instead of the UI causing performance issues....

Get YOUR fact straight, please. Vista Aero UI is rendered on the GPU not CPU. The only thing that the CPU does is render the content of the Window, but that is the program that needs to be changed to render itself on the GPU rather than the CPU.

lets face it, as something becomes as popular as windows its gonna get own by some jumped up hacker/spammer some where.... ubuntu and all other linux OSes next :)

Originally Posted by p3nGet some facts, the Mac UI uses far less resources than Vista and it being UNIX all processes get a look in at the CPU instead of the UI causing performance issues....

Get YOUR fact straight, please. Vista Aero UI is rendered on the GPU not CPU. The only thing that the CPU does is render the content of the Window, but that is the program that needs to be changed to render itself on the GPU rather than the CPU.

Originally Posted by bowmanMac OS X may be open-source UNIX underneath, but the developers have intertwined that base with gobs and gobs of proprietary GUI bloat, just as bad as Microsoft. This isn't surprising at all.. And I'll enjoy laughing at the rabid Mac fanboys. Thanks for this. :P

Get some facts, the Mac UI uses far less resources than Vista and it being UNIX all processes get a look in at the CPU instead of the UI causing performance issues....

Anywho we put sophos on our Macs at work, never seen a virus tho

I think he doesnt mean the performance of the MAC, its about how OSX is coded, he means that because there are alot of proprietary bloat that hasnt been coded wisely, more exploits are discovered from time to time, compared to when vista released, OS X has even more vulnerabilities that has been discovered since then, as I said on another forum, its sad that OSX is based on a mature BSD base yet, more exploits are discovered from time to time on it

While OSX will never have serious virus problems because it based on UNIX, it is good to have if you have to deal with Windows users since they don't have access to a network quality OS.

Apple does ALL security IN the OS, that's what the random security updates do, so no need for further antivirus software from a 3rd Party.

OSX is based on BSD Unix so the way each file is protected by permissions, the way Apple separated "root" from "admin" and Launchd, basically means it's impossible to create a virus for OSX. Over the last 21 years of the OSX/NeXT OS there hasn't been a single virus, so chances are slim to none that OSX will ever have a serious problem since the OSX is a true NETWORK OS and FAR more battle-tested than any version of Windows could ever hope to be.

Someday everyone will be running OSX and viruses will be a thing of the past, but until then we need to help Windows users best we can until they move up to OSX.

I lol'd. This made my day, now I don't have to listen to all the Mac fanboys.

Although TBH if the OS patches are applied then the only way to get a virus is by user stupidity. I run windows without antivirus and have seen maybe 3 viruses over as many years, due to sketchy downloads.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryWhile OSX will never have serious virus problems because it based on UNIX

I have no real opinion on MACs I wouldnt get one butif ya do fair enough.

But I did find the above quote rather funny since a week ago I acctually did a presentation on operating system security for my operating systems module at uni and the topic I was covering was the benefits and disadvantages of Open & closed source security. Guess what one of my disadvantages of open source security was......Complacency and if you act like and Apple act like that then your asking for trouble.

HAHA, stupid Mac boys, looks you finally get a taste of what its like to have someone care enough about you, to break your stuff. If you are careful ( i.e, dont click everydamn pop up, just because its there) you are pretty safe where virus' are concerned.

Originally Posted by p3nGet some facts, the Mac UI uses far less resources than Vista and it being UNIX all processes get a look in at the CPU instead of the UI causing performance issues....

Get YOUR fact straight, please. Vista Aero UI is rendered on the GPU not CPU. The only thing that the CPU does is render the content of the Window, but that is the program that needs to be changed to render itself on the GPU rather than the CPU.

lets face it, as something becomes as popular as windows its gonna get own by some jumped up hacker/spammer some where.... ubuntu and all other linux OSes next :)

Because security flaws just start existing as software increases in popularity?

OS X is naturally more secure than Windows thanks to its underlying BSD code and Unix permission model. They'll certainly be targeted more as their market share increases, but that doesn't create flaws out of thin air.

as for myself, I made a case study out of it for interest and as a talking point for the written part of an IT security course for my Software engineering minor, so I think my facts are quite straight thanks.

No. He meant OSX. How can you miss virii/worms from ~2 years ago, especially when they made a big deal of it supposedly being the first OSX worm?OSX.Leap.A
So yeah. Quit being a fanboi and start thinking. :(

[QUOTENo. He meant OSX. How can you miss virii/worms from ~2 years ago, especially when they made a big deal of it supposedly being the first OSX worm?OSX.Leap.A
So yeah. Quit being a fanboi and start thinking. :([/QUOTE]

But Leap.A wasn't a virus, it was a worm, and it never infected any machines in the wild. It was clean room only.

I'm simply saying there haven't been any viruses for OSX, and that remains true. Sure "someday" something could appear that affects 10-20 machines, but the way OSX is constructed there is technically no way for something like that to spread, so unless a hacker goes from machine to machine to machine and "physically" enters the root password, it cannot move from Mac to Mac to Mac.

OSX is the most secure, mainstream OS for a reason and that's because Apple took the time to do security right, PLUS they built it on top of the most secure OpenSource OS, BSD UNIX, so that's why Mac users will never need extra security software.

Just to prove you wrong, I just made a virus for MacOS X, it even has a timer system where it reveal itself after a random selected number of days under 100. And you have been infected and spreading the virus.

There now we are all happy! (majority wins) ;)

Seriously, you don't need to protect Apple, they are big now, it can defend itself. It's for a reason that Apple immediately remove the "Virus free OS " ad, when a virus outbreak infected Macs a few years back. If Apple feels that this kind of stuff is not real, they will prove it. Perhaps, it's a human feeling that we all get when we feel a minority, but I don't know I am not a psychologist. I am just a living creature that leaching valuable coffee and outputs software. Polluting the world with softwares! Disgusting! Soon we will have too many softwares which will destroy the Internetz. Down with wearable soft!.

the one thing that appalls me about threads like this is the blind hate from the anti-mac camp, and the blind ignorance and stupidity from the pro-mac camp.

Every OS has its place, windows is great for most everyday things, so are macs.

windows is the choice for engineering workstations because most of the applications are made for that platform, and the hardware is easy to customize, mac has a grip on art and graphical communication workstations because it offers intuitive and easy to work with UI's and excellent software for that field.

both sides need to grow up and realize they can both coexist, and that the personal computer market isn't mutually exclusive. let everyone make their own informed choice, just make sure it is hard facts and not idiocy spread by PR departments.

I am a Mac fan first, but use the other common OSs regularly. I do administer to 100% Mac users though, and have for the past 12 years.

What I have seen is that the typical Mac user is much less exposed to a computer virus, root-kit, or spyware than the typical Windows user. This doesn't mean that the Mac is 100% virus-proof (far from it), just safer for the average user.

Now sending someone in to buy a Mac over a PC by saying they are 100% safe is ridiculous. Saying they are much less likely to have a malware problem is still accurate I think.

[QUOTE}as for myself, I made a case study out of it for interest and as a talking point for the written part of an IT security course for my Software engineering minor, so I think my facts are quite straight thanks.[/QUOTE]

For: GoodBytes

Well, the written portion of your IT security course contained an error. I was just pointing that out. OSX was released in March of 2001, and as of Nov 28th, 2008, there is still not a single virus for that operating system. There were 1 or 2 minor worms & trojans around 2004, 2005, but no virus, none... zip, nada... so your essay was partly incorrect.

I know much more about IT security, and FAR more about OSX, so simply admit your essay wasn't fully correct and move on.

as for myself, I made a case study out of it for interest and as a talking point for the written part of an IT security course for my Software engineering minor, so I think my facts are quite straight thanks.

For: GoodBytes

Well, the written portion of your IT security course contained an error. I was just pointing that out. OSX was released in March of 2001, and as of Nov 28th, 2008, there is still not a single virus for that operating system. There were 1 or 2 minor worms & trojans around 2004, 2005, but no virus, none... zip, nada... so your essay was partly incorrect.

I know much more about IT security, and FAR more about OSX, so simply admit your essay wasn't fully correct and move on.

Originally Posted by BindibadgiYour Apple fanboy rant is complete BS and the last sentence of this post makes your entire comment stereotypically internet laughable.

The fact that multiple people have said contrary to your claims in far more balanced and well thought out posts proves this.

Calling BSD and UNIX OpenSource made me completely ignore all the rest of his spam...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Landry that's because Apple took the time to do security right, PLUS they built it on top of the most secure OpenSource OS, BSD UNIX, so that's why Mac users will never need extra security software.

Apple is the largest OpenSource proponent on the planet, never forget that... If it's not "open"... Apple will not use it...

---

Um Ted, I am a Mac fan and even I am cringing at your claims here. Apple has quite a few completely proprietary apps, DRM and the like. They have indeed used open-source initiatives to in their OS and applications - and contributed back to open-source, but by no means is it correct to say "...if it's not "open" Apple will not use it..."

Originally Posted by Ted Landry[QUOTENo. He meant OSX. How can you miss virii/worms from ~2 years ago, especially when they made a big deal of it supposedly being the first OSX worm?OSX.Leap.A
So yeah. Quit being a fanboi and start thinking. :(

But Leap.A wasn't a virus, it was a worm, and it never infected any machines in the wild. It was clean room only.

I'm simply saying there haven't been any viruses for OSX, and that remains true. Sure "someday" something could appear that affects 10-20 machines, but the way OSX is constructed there is technically no way for something like that to spread, so unless a hacker goes from machine to machine to machine and "physically" enters the root password, it cannot move from Mac to Mac to Mac.

OSX is the most secure, mainstream OS for a reason and that's because Apple took the time to do security right, PLUS they built it on top of the most secure OpenSource OS, BSD UNIX, so that's why Mac users will never need extra security software.

"'This shows that Apple had more than five times the number of flaws per month than Windows XP and Vista in 2007 and most of these flaws are serious. Clearly this goes against conventional wisdom.'
Macs have traditionally been viewed as suffering from fewer vulnerabilities than Windows."

"The amount of exploit code available in the wild also has an impact on security. While there are thousands of pieces of code that seek to exploit Windows XP vulnerabilities, exploit code for Mac OS X is relatively rare."

Basically Mac OSX is a piece of crap according to anyone who's ever tried to hack it. A unix base is nothing if it's not implemeted correctly. If most of the world used Mac OSX as you invision we'd be sufferiing from severe spyware/virus bloating that would cripple PC useres world wide. The only reason that Apple computers "appear" to be more secure is because no one writes viruses for them. Apple is like Bose, great advertising, blindly loyal fanbase, and shoddy shoddy quality behind the curtains. I'm not trying to be an ass but I hear the "apple is so f'n safe!" argument all the time and the fact of the matter is simply the opposite, MS should be very proud.

"'This shows that Apple had more than five times the number of flaws per month than Windows XP and Vista in 2007 and most of these flaws are serious. Clearly this goes against conventional wisdom.'
Macs have traditionally been viewed as suffering from fewer vulnerabilities than Windows."

"The amount of exploit code available in the wild also has an impact on security. While there are thousands of pieces of code that seek to exploit Windows XP vulnerabilities, exploit code for Mac OS X is relatively rare."

Basically Mac OSX is a piece of crap according to anyone who's ever tried to hack it. A unix base is nothing if it's not implemeted correctly. If most of the world used Mac OSX as you invision we'd be sufferiing from severe spyware/virus bloating that would cripple PC useres world wide. The only reason that Apple computers "appear" to be more secure is because no one writes viruses for them. Apple is like Bose, great advertising, blindly loyal fanbase, and shoddy shoddy quality behind the curtains. I'm not trying to be an ass but I hear the "apple is so f'n safe!" argument all the time and the fact of the matter is simply the opposite, MS should be very proud.

The main thing that artificially created the "no viruses for macs" propaganda was not the fact that people don't write viruses for macs, it is the fact that when Apple finds a vulnerability their policy is "don't let anyone know" instead of Microsoft's "warn everyone who might be affected so they can protect themselves."

if any company has done things right it would in fact be Microsoft, and not Apple.

Apple is the largest OpenSource proponent on the planet, never forget that... If it's not "open"... Apple will not use it...

---

D-R-M

Apple LOCKS down its iTunes, its Macs, its hardware and software to keep others out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GliderLol, is all I can say... YOU are trying to give me lessons in *NIX???

I found this funny too.

Quote:

OSX is the most secure, mainstream OS for a reason and that's because Apple took the time to do security right, PLUS they built it on top of the most secure OpenSource OS, BSD UNIX, so that's why Mac users will never need extra security software.

No it's not - it's because the proportion of Mac use is the tiniest fraction of that of Windows, and Virus writers can make FAR MORE MONEY out of exploiting botnets made for Windows than they can any other OS.

Couple in the fact that most Windows users are ****ing mainstream retards who don't update their PCs, or have other software "helping", and you've a recipe for **** hitting the fan.

Originally Posted by Bindibadgi DRM.... No it's not - it's because the proportion of Mac use is the tiniest fraction of that of Windows, and Virus writers can make FAR MORE MONEY out of exploiting botnets made for Windows than they can any other OS.

Couple in the fact that most Windows users are ****ing mainstream retards who don't update their PCs, or have other software "helping", and you've a recipe for **** hitting the fan.

There is no DRM in much of the iTunes store... and none in Mac hardware... The DRM is put in place by the record companies NOT Apple... so get your facts straight.

As for the number of Mac users... It's now about 8% Macs running OSX and around 90% running some form of Windows, 1% Linux, 1% Other.

Yes, OSX runs smoother since it's based on UNIX and Apple frequently updates it... but we all agree Windows is a mess since it was never intended to run on world wide networks, whereas OSX is the same OS that brought something called the "world wide web"... perhaps you've heard of it???

So while many of the more demanding computer users have moved up to Macs, I think the freedom will bring many more in the near future.

Actually, around 96% of OSX is purely open... The entire OS is... except for the UI of Finder and Aqua... the Safari Browser is of course, all networking & printing is... (did you see where Apple bought CUPS! wow...) and most all of the foundation / frameworks, etc are...

Windows is nearly ALL proprietary... even many file formats are proprietary...

Apple stopped doing that around 1997, so it's nice to have such an open platform in Apple Hardware and Software now that Linux has given up trying to compete in the Desktop and Laptop / Phone space.

Yes, OSX runs smoother since it's based on UNIX and Apple frequently updates it... but we all agree Windows is a mess since it was never intended to run on world wide networks, whereas OSX is the same OS that brought something called the "world wide web"... perhaps you've heard of it???

So while many of the more demanding computer users have moved up to Macs, I think the freedom will bring many more in the near future.

Well, I thought I'd point out a few glaring issues here:

1. "smoothness" of an OS is largly based on two things: opinion and hardware. Considering both differ greatly from user to user there's really no basis for comparison. As far as I can tell, when I'm browsing the isles of bestbuy the fresh windows machines are just as "smooth" as anything mac offers.

2. As far as windows "not being intended to run on worldwide networks" I have no idea what your talking about. Apple and windows where not fore-runners when it comes to networking. If you really want to know, the internet was first accesed by an organization called ARPA in the 1960's MIT is listed a bunch in the early years (they where also the people who developed ans sold the first consumer PC that worked on a network). Then comes names like Intel which released the first computer with a CPU that worked on a network and then all the real consumer work was done by Xerox and IBM. As far as which OS is better for networking, any IT pro will tell you windows is the hands-down winner, and to back it up there's a windows majority in that market too and it's not driven by brand loyalty either its driven by the fact that windows is a superior platform for networking. OSX did not bring anyone the WWW, Americans did :) and a bunch of college students at that! If you want to credit any specific company it should be Xerox or IBM.

3. Demanding computer users do not choose OSX. All you have to do is look at Apples strategy to see that, simple is everything they do, and simple things do not do complex tasks and most power users often have many complex tasks to do! If you want a powerful, flexible and capable platform go with Microsoft and a good antivirus, if you want numbing simplicity go with Apple.

4. Furthermore, I do not appreciate you oversighting your previous allegations. Windows is by far a more secure platform than OSX and I'd greatly appreciate you either arguing that point or retracting that statement.

5. UNIX is a brilliant operating system that OSX is losely based upon, and just because OSX is tied to UNIX doesn't mean it is UNIX. It's not an argument to say OSX is better because it's based on UNIX, the programmers at MS have most likely also read that code and evidence supports that they actually understood it which is far more than Apple can say.

I know it's hard to admit you are wrong and showing blatant fanboyism after 4 pages in a thread, but just stepping away is a good way to not make an utter fool out of yourself without causing a fuss...

Anyway:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryActually, around 96% of OSX is purely open... The entire OS is... except for the UI of Finder and Aqua... the Safari Browser is of course, all networking & printing is... (did you see where Apple bought CUPS! wow...) and most all of the foundation / frameworks, etc are...

I don't know what you find 'big' in a system, but to me the UI is quite big (look at Xorg on Linux, its a huge package)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryWindows is nearly ALL proprietary... even many file formats are proprietary...

We aren't talking about Windows, but since you keep referring to it, Windows users are a totally other kind of user. The braindead use Windows, the braindead with too much money use Apple crap...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryApple stopped doing that around 1997, so it's nice to have such an open platform in Apple Hardware and Software now that Linux has given up trying to compete in the Desktop and Laptop / Phone space.

Well, thanks for clearing that up to me... As a Gentoo interim-developer I tought I know what the goals of many Linux devs (including Linus himself) are. It seems you convinced me I was wrong. Because I tought that Linux (actually the whole GNU / OSS gang) was gaining market share faster then a speeding bullet. I wonder why Debian was installed on an Android just a couple of weeks after it's been released, if it isn't one of the goals of the foundation... I wonder why Asus eee and the likes ship with Xandros or other distros...

But Ted, answer me this, what do you *think* is Linux? Because I'm 99% sure you don't even know that...

Why would you want to do that? There's nothing more funny then a fanboy making a complete fool out of himself... But I have to admit, Ted Landry is quite good with proving points and giving solid arguments... He even convinced me that I don't know nothing about Linux. I'll contact Brett and make him remove my articles, since they must only contain lies...

Windows is by far a more secure platform than OSX and I'd greatly appreciate you either arguing that point or retracting that statement.

Congrats on showing your complete ignorance to what's possible on OSX, there :) There a great number of demanding applications written for the OS X platform, and don't forget it comes with a full suite of powerful tools right under the hood including a plethora of scripting interpreters and the full GNU compiler collection, as well as Xcode, a full IDE, on the installation DVD.

Don't get me wrong, Apple attracts a lot of simple home users but it also attracts a great number of advanced users too... in exactly the same way that Windows does.

And did you get that the wrong way round when you said Windows is more secure than OS X (or indeed any UNIX derived system, whether it be a BSD or Linux, or even things like Irix or HPUX?) :?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GliderWindows users are a totally other kind of user. The braindead use Windows, the braindead with too much money use Apple crap...

Originally Posted by RTTCongrats on showing your complete ignorance to what's possible on OSX, there :) There a great number of demanding applications written for the OS X platform, and don't forget it comes with a full suite of powerful tools right under the hood including a plethora of scripting interpreters and the full GNU compiler collection, as well as Xcode, a full IDE, on the installation DVD.

Don't get me wrong, Apple attracts a lot of simple home users but it also attracts a great number of advanced users too... in exactly the same way that Windows does.

Exactly what I mean RTT, Macs do make good workstations for certain applications, as the applications they have available to them are excellent for Coding and graphical communications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluephoenix

Given you have enough knowledge one OS is as powerful as any other OS. (usually ranging into power-user or (insert desired name for skill level here)).

sorry to be quoting myself (my COM professor would kill me, but oh well), this comes into play in a big way with what RTT describes, both for windows machines and macs. Those who know how to use the provided utilities and know the operating system will invariably run into less troubles and get more out of the machine than your 'average joe' user.

Originally Posted by RTTCongrats on showing your complete ignorance to what's possible on OSX, there :) There a great number of demanding applications written for the OS X platform, and don't forget it comes with a full suite of powerful tools right under the hood including a plethora of scripting interpreters and the full GNU compiler collection, as well as Xcode, a full IDE, on the installation DVD.

And did you get that the wrong way round when you said Windows is more secure than OS X (or indeed any UNIX derived system, whether it be a BSD or Linux, or even things like Irix or HPUX?) :?

I agree there are lots of demanding applications written for OSX, but I'm talking about just the basic OS. I belive that a clean windows system offers far more flexibility than a clean OSX system, maybe not useful flexibility but there's alot of frill and depth in the way you can use a windows OS that simply isn't programmed into OSX. If you want to talk about application compatability, even if you exclude videogames, there's a lot more available to a windows machine than an OSX machine open-source or not.

That being said I think OSX's simplicity is what makes it a joy to do complex tasks on but personally I want the complexity of a windows OS under the hood, so to speak. Also, if your doing enterprise work or networking a large company, people always chose windows because it's made better for that enviroment because it has that underlying complexity.

Secondly windows is more secure than OSX according to quite a few articles I've read, including the one I've linked to. It would appear not to be secure, simply because your average mac/linux user never has to worry about viruses, a windows user does. With that in mind, it's not really that hard to keep a computer clean, I've been running vista on my comp for a year and it's never crahsed or had a virus problem, and I do run quite a veriety of tasks on my comp.

I think many things come down to preference on OS's. I have a friend who's very talented at programing who uses's a mac religiously for very different reasons than my own windows preferences. If there's two solid facts though it's windows is more secure if you know what your doing, and at a foundational level it's more complex.

I use both Windows and OSX... I like them both for different things, and I'll be dualbooting my x86 machine with OSX once my new parts arrive...

As a side note, I've used Windows for years (as have most), and have had just a few viruses over that period of time. I HAVE had some spam issues, though nothing I couldn't get rid of in a few minutes.

I enjoy using both OS's, if for no other reason than to have a little diversity in my day-to-day-computing life.

I think many things come down to preference on OS's. I have a friend who's very talented at programing who uses's a mac religiously for very different reasons than my own windows preferences. If there's two solid facts though it's windows is more secure if you know what your doing, and at a foundational level it's more complex.

from a technical standpoint, UNIX is several leagues more complex / powerful than Windows. That's why the world's top programmers use Macs, not Windows.

Microsoft has brainwashed a generation and it's sad to see... but once you know about OSX, (a true UNIX, unlike Linux) you'll never go back to Microsoft products.

Someday everyone will have a Mac, it's just a matter of time, you can get started at the below links... Macs start around $300 on ebay... and $549 "new" from Apple, so when you are ready to move up in the world, you'll know where to go...

Originally Posted by Ted Landryfrom a technical standpoint, UNIX is several leagues more complex / powerful than Windows. That's why the world's top programmers use Macs, not Windows.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Thank you Steve Job!
Based on your logic, """""top programmers""""" would use UNIX not Mac OSX. :)
Now I am interested to know what defines """"""top"""""" programmers? You are suggesting that you automatically program better, have more ideas and can type more optimized code, because you use a different OS.... What full B.S! A programmer doesn't care what OS he uses in general. All he would want is a good programming language editor.

A top programmer, doesn't care with a software that "synnergizes" with something else, and doesn't care about "nanochromatic" color coding aspect of the programming language editor.. simple color coding is enough.

A programmer would use the OS where the software ends up. So if it's a Windows software he will use Windows so that he can see his project run on the proper environment and to be able debug it properly. UNIX/Linux is usually used to assembly languages, because it allows you to compile and execute the code a tad faster.

Originally Posted by Ted Landryfrom a technical standpoint, UNIX is several leagues more complex / powerful than Windows. That's why the world's top programmers use Macs, not Windows.

Microsoft has brainwashed a generation and it's sad to see... but once you know about OSX, (a true UNIX, unlike Linux) you'll never go back to Microsoft products.

Someday everyone will have a Mac, it's just a matter of time, you can get started at the below links... Macs start around $300 on ebay... and $549 "new" from Apple, so when you are ready to move up in the world, you'll know where to go...

You know what, you've convinced me! After all these years, it's no wonder I still use an OBVIOUSLY inferior operating system! I just thought it was my own ignorance (or that it actually was more than competent to do the tasks I ask of it) keeping me tied down mercilessly to windows! In reality, it was brainwashing! It all makes sense now.

Thank you so much for opening my eyes. I'm rushing out right now to throw away all my evil, brain-washing machines of old in favor of new, blazingly fast, ultra-modern Mac's!

You know what, you've convinced me! After all these years, it's no wonder I still use an OBVIOUSLY inferior operating system! I just thought it was my own ignorance (or that it actually was more than competent to do the tasks I ask of it) keeping me tied down mercilessly to windows! In reality, it was brainwashing! It all makes sense now.

Thank you so much for opening my eyes. I'm rushing out right now to throw away all my evil, brain-washing machines of old in favor of new, blazingly fast, ultra-modern Mac's!

Brb.

Great, I knew you would come to your senses if given enough time.

Keep in mind on a Mac you can run many OSes at the same time with Fusion or Parallels... no speed loss. And now that the Mac Laptops are the fastest Game machines, you'll be quite happy with your purchase.

...but wait... if this is true, it only means that they've always reccomended some sort of anti-virus software.

...It does nothing to dispute any claim of more/less security of OSX vs. Windows.

I'm with the others here; safe surfing/down loading drastically reduces the odds of any sort of virus. I've been using Microsoft operating systems for 10+ years, and in that time, never seen a virus - and I don't use any anti-virus software....

...but wait... if this is true, it only means that they've always reccomended some sort of anti-virus software.

...It does nothing to dispute any claim of more/less security of OSX vs. Windows.

I'm with the others here; safe surfing/down loading drastically reduces the odds of any sort of virus. I've been using Microsoft operating systems for 10+ years, and in that time, never seen a virus - and I don't use any anti-virus software....

Keep in mind on a Mac you can run many OSes at the same time with Fusion or Parallels... no speed loss. And now that the Mac Laptops are the fastest Game machines, you'll be quite happy with your purchase.

Congrats!

are you completely incapable of recognizing sarcasm?

'old' or not, you should still use antivirus and other protection software with a mac.

Yep, the news outlets were wrong... No Virus software needed on Macs...

"As we saw yesterday, the accusations from the BBC, Washington Post, and Cnet saying that Apple was trying to "quietly" recommend antivirus software were false: Our quick fact check showed it was all an update to an old tech note. Now, Apple has removed the articles entirely.

In a statement to these media outlets, Apple stated:

The Mac is designed with built-in technologies that provide protection against malicious software and security threats right out of the box.

Originally Posted by GliderLet's double post, since it's allowed in here... (and try to get back OT)

Gareth, any news on Apple revoking this statement? The link to the Apple site is already dead, and some of my friends pointed out that Apple retracted their goo

Apple never retracted anything, there was never any "goo"...

it was simply an error by some reporters... Apple is clear that you do not need Anti-Virus software... it won't hurt if you still have to deal with old Windows machines, but the Mac doesn't need it... case closed.

Just wait until benchmarks appear, the MacBook will wipe the slate clean in FPS... just watch!

You really need to study up on high end equipment, you guys have been dealing with bottom level "clones" for too long :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

My good man you clearly have the iq of a glass of water and you head so far up your firewire port that you don't realise this is a tech web site pretty much every one here could quote you numbers showing just how wrong you are. Any way your opinion is clearly worthless your a deluded fan boy who would believe any thing that came in an apple pr, your the type that give actual apple users a bad name.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryViruses are 99.9999999% a Window ONLY Problem.
More crap.
Eliminate Windows from your Company or Network and all those problems forever disappear.

So wait... based on your hypothesis (I won't humiliated you by saying theorem). If I kill you, it will reduce the chances for me of being sick? THAT'S AWESOME! Now I know what to do to help prevent me from being sick this winter!

Now, to realize the ratio of Macs to PCs in operation today, and the odds that more pcs will suffer than macs... would only make sense to me.

yes, but to think the ratio is around 0 for Macs and 145,000 for PCs.

so something else is at work here... and people in the know clearly point to OS X's superior UNIX underpinnings as the root cause why nobody has been able to create viruses for the OS X system (or Linux for that matter)

Windows was created before large networks were common, OS X was not, thus Apple has much more experience in making bulletproof operating systems.

you are not seriously calling an apple product high end equipment are you? Just because it has a pretty logo and case doesn't mean it performs better.

Well, everyone in the PC market agrees it's the top of the market for the money you spend. But sure, when you get past 1U systems, Apple has yet to play its cards.

Apple is the largest seller of laptops with the popular MacBook series, it owns the low end with the Mac mini, and has the best selling all in one units with the iMacs... but yes... the bulk of the market is still the mid tower range which Apple has chosen to leave to low end Mac clones since around 1999.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryWindows was created before large networks were common, OS X was not, thus Apple has much more experience in making bulletproof operating systems.

that method of reasoning is seriously flawed....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryWell, everyone in the PC market agrees it's the top of the market for the money you spend. But sure, when you get past 1U systems, Apple has yet to play its cards.

but I didn't think that anything made by apple was a PC.... oh wait.... that is what that idiot in their ads says....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Landry

Apple is the largest seller of laptops with the popular MacBook series, it owns the low end with the Mac mini, and has the best selling all in one units with the iMacs... but yes... the bulk of the market is still the mid tower range which Apple has chosen to leave to low end Mac clones since around 1999.

Originally Posted by GliderGareth, any news on Apple revoking this statement? The link to the Apple site is already dead, and some of my friends pointed out that Apple retracted their goo

I've heard nothing other than what's been posted here and what other sites are saying. As far as I'm aware, there has yet to be an official statement from Apple on the matter - although the disappearance of the knowledgebase article in question points to a retraction.

Originally Posted by Gareth HalfacreeI've heard nothing other than what's been posted here and what other sites are saying. As far as I'm aware, there has yet to be an official statement from Apple on the matter - although the disappearance of the knowledgebase article in question points to a retraction.

Apple wouldn't say anything either way, that's not their style. No retraction needed since there is nothing to retract.

Basically, Intego was desperate to sell Anti-Virus software, so on November 25th, they lied... by stating that "for the first time" Apple was recommending the use of anti-virus software on Macs.

We now that was incorrect.... but the false story grew from there... most of the main details are here:

Originally Posted by Gareth HalfacreeI've heard nothing other than what's been posted here and what other sites are saying. As far as I'm aware, there has yet to be an official statement from Apple on the matter - although the disappearance of the knowledgebase article in question points to a retraction.

Knowing Apple, they will probably silence it to death, and nothing ever happened... Or call it a feature ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryApple wouldn't say anything either way, that's not their style. No retraction needed since there is nothing to retract.

Basically, Intego was desperate to sell Anti-Virus software, so on November 25th, they lied... by stating that "for the first time" Apple was recommending the use of anti-virus software on Macs.

We now that was incorrect.... but the false story grew from there... most of the main details are here:

True, Apple would charge you before they make a statement, that is their style. But courtesy goes to Intego for placing a statement on the Apple knowledge base site. I don't know a lot of companies that have access to that, excep, hmm, Apple...

But seriously Ted, either you stop posting bullshit, or you learn to quote multiple persons in one post...

Originally Posted by GliderTrue, Apple would charge you before they make a statement, that is their style. But courtesy goes to Intego for placing a statement on the Apple knowledge base site. I don't know a lot of companies that have access to that, excep, hmm, Apple...

But seriously Ted, either you stop posting bullshit, or you learn to quote multiple persons in one post...

Incorrect, online and in store support is free... and of course Intego doesn't have editing access to the kbase, don't be absurd.

The quoting on this site is very 1998, so I'm not going to spend my time manually dorking around with such a primitive message board.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryIncorrect, online and in store support is free... and of course Intego doesn't have editing access to the kbase, don't be absurd.

The quoting on this site is very 1998, so I'm not going to spend my time manually dorking around with such a primitive message board.

Then why are you still here? As much as I want to encourage our community to be diverse in its discussions you're the only one making these echo's and you continually insult its members. Feel free to leave at any time.

Tbh, your opinions on other OS' other than what Apple uses are circa 1991 mate.

Apple maybe the biggest seller of consumer notebooks but HP, Dell and Lenovo are the biggest sellers of ALL laptops and business counts for more. What's more, the mini is being outsold by netbooks now - your regurgitation data from your apple holy book is wrong.

Your assumption that Apple to PC is 1:few hundred thousand is HUGELY wrong too - try multiplying that by several thousand for PCs.

Originally Posted by UrbanMarineYup and that's why Crapple controls the computer industry. Oh wait it doesn't.

Ah, Apple certainly controls the market and has since 1976, except for a few years in the middle 90's. Most everything you do on a PC is because Apple made it possible, and brought it to the masses. The Personal Computer, Color Monitors, the Keyboard, the first 5.25 & 3.5 Floppy Drives, first Mouse, first GUI, first Plug and Play architecture, the Laser Printer, the CD-Rom Drive, first Motion Video architecture, FireWIre, first Palmrests on laptops, first Trackpad, the PDA, the WWW, Wireless, first usable MP3 player, first Multi-Touch Phone, etc, etc...

The rest of the industry can't move a muscle until Apple makes a move... So learn to deal with it or join in the greatest social movement of our time.

Ah so then Apple is responsible for the large amount of spam and viruses floating around the net too? Their flaws caused problems in all industries then.

The day I start driving a Jetta, drinking Starbucks, turn Liberal and jack off with my tears of loneliness will be the day I "might" buy an official Apple product. Until then you can keep your "social movement” to your little circle of ejaculatory dysfunctions to yourself. Your lord almighty king Jobs stole many of those inventions.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryAh, Apple certainly controls the market and has since 1976, except for a few years in the middle 90's. Most everything you do on a PC is because Apple made it possible, and brought it to the masses. The Personal Computer, Color Monitors, the Keyboard, the first 5.25 & 3.5 Floppy Drives, first Mouse, first GUI, first Plug and Play architecture, the Laser Printer, the CD-Rom Drive, first Motion Video architecture, FireWIre, first Palmrests on laptops, first Trackpad, the PDA, the WWW, Wireless, first usable MP3 player, first Multi-Touch Phone, etc, etc...

The rest of the industry can't move a muscle until Apple makes a move... So learn to deal with it or join in the greatest social movement of our time.

All I can say, LOL... You admit Apple stole his stuff from UNIX, yet it's the best, greatest and most innovative around? And the WWW, wireless, MP3 player, Multitouch,... aren't developed by Apple, AT ALL!

But as we know by now, Apple == 42... And you don't know the meaning of the word 'fact'.

I am sorry we all know that Apple invented the Geforce, because MacOS is the choice of top engineers and top programmers and Apple makes the worlds fastest computer. Way faster than any super computers. In fact 1 Mac Book Pro is as fast as all the computer running windows on the planet combined! You guys know nothing! Apple invented the web cam, speakers, music, movies, movie theaters, gaming consoles, Media Center, fire, Instant messaging. Without Apple Computers, you will still be in the stone age!
Apple is white as it stands for perfections, and glows as it's a god. Apple super power machine created the world in 7 days. What did Microsoft invented? Nothing. Oh, sorry I am wrong, they invented the terms "stealing" and "copying from others"!.

Originally Posted by GoodBytesI am sorry we all know that Apple invented the Geforce, because MacOS is the choice of top engineers and top programmers and Apple makes the worlds fastest computer. Way faster than any super computers. In fact 1 Mac Book Pro is as fast as all the computer running windows on the planet combined! You guys know nothing! Apple invented the web cam, speakers, music, movies, movie theaters, gaming consoles, Media Center, fire, Instant messaging. Without Apple Computers, you will still be in the stone age!
Apple is white as it stands for perfections, and glows as it's a god.

The hitchhickers guide to the galaxy (well Deep Tought) was wrong...

the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything != 42the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything == Apple

Originally Posted by GoodBytesMacOS is the choice of top engineers and top programmers and Apple makes the worlds fastest computer. Way faster than any super computers.

Well, let's be accurate... OSX and Apple's hardware was the world's 3rd fastest supercomputer a few years ago, (for 1/3rd the cost of Big Blue Iron) so IBM got scared and they tried to slow Apple's advancements. Steve sent his top engineers into Intel to help them get up to speed, and while Intel couldn't match the speed of PowerPC, a year later Intel was able to finally win the Apple account. (they had tried for decades to do this)

Yes, while Apple lowered their standards and now run custom Intel processors, it continues to bring IBM down... a process that Apple started back in 1976. Today, Apple push Windows market share below 90%, so exciting days are ahead...

What are you talking about Windows fanboy (Ted)! Apple has the fastest computer, not 3rd. See the benchmarks published by Apple Computers! Steve did not send his top engineer, he sent one of the guys that clean the floor! Man! I am disappointed in you!

1) The Altair wasn't a Personal Computer, it was a Hobbyist "Kit"...
2) CTX didn't have a PC, the Apple ][ was the first to display Color Graphics on a PC.
3) Again, the Apple ][ was the first PC to come with a Keyboard
4) Yes, but the Apple ][ was the first with a 5.25 controller and 5.25 Floppy Drive, the Mac 128k was the first with a 3.5 Drive.

(I think you are highly confused between component manufactures and the company that brings it to the "masses"... you might want to reread what I wrote :)

5) No, the concept of the Mouse came from SRI, not Xerox.
6) No, Xerox "invited" Apple to visit the PARC labs where Jobs and others saw "rough concepts". Today everyone uses the Mac UI, not the Xerox one. Apple paid for the visit so no theft was ever involved. You are talking about Microsoft that was never invited nor paid Xerox.
7) Plug and Play on the Mac came out in 1984, the PS/2 1987.
8) The Star System wasn't a PC, it was a extremely expensive Workstation.
9) Sure, but Apple first made it popular on PCs.
10) MPEG was a format, not an Architecture that covered sound, video, still images, etc.
11) Good you got one correct. Apple owns the original patent for FireWire.
12) Of course it's true, I wouldn't have said it otherwise. The first palmrests on Laptops appeared with Apple's PowerBook 100, 140 and 170 models.
13) But again, Apple was the first to use it, first to make it popular, now it's a standard.
14) The Psion wasn't a PDA, it was a PD... the Newton had "Assistance", which oddly enough still hasn't been duplicated to this day.
15) Actually, I'm way ahead of you. NeXTSTEP which is now named OSX is what allowed Tim to build "www.app", using Interface Builder which still ships with every Mac sold today. So when you type "http" or "www", you have Steve Jobs to thank since his machines brought the world the "World Wide Web"... here is a picture of the first Web Server for your enjoyment:

16) Ah, but it was Apple and Lucent that finalized the 802.11b standard and Apple sold the first Wireless Laptop, the "iBook" in 1999.
17) But it was never sold on a mass scale like the iPod was... Again you are confusing a few 1,000 units compared to MILLIONS and the injection of a product into mass culture. The iPod did it with fast firewire and the iTunes store and to this day, nobody can match it.

18) Correct, and now the iPhone has passed Windows Mobile as the 3rd top selling Mobile platform.

So you got the Firewire question partially right, but you still lack deep knowledge of this industry. But thanks for trying!!!

Keep in mind on a Mac you can run many OSes at the same time with Fusion or Parallels... no speed loss. And now that the Mac Laptops are the fastest Game machines, you'll be quite happy with your purchase.

Congrats!

Alright, so I've managed to throw out my old relic's of oppression, and gotten myself a shiney, new mac. I feel so awesome now! The world is my goat!

Anyway, took days to get this thing online, as I would enter in my wireless AP password, go to update something, reboot, only to find that it lost my password! Plus, the fact that it keeps asking for my password to do the simplest of things (like change the time on the clock) is starting to piss me off, so I just removed the password altogether from my account.

Another big problem is that none of the games I own work on this stupid thing! Not one! Sure, I could use an emulation environment, but it contains files pioneered by that evil, monopolistic mega-corp microsoft! So no way is that going to happen!

Oh, one thing I do have to ask is: where is the right click? I'm just so used to having an easy to access, contextual menu containing the most commonly used tasks on anything my mouse is pointed at that I kinda feel naked without it! Oh, hold on a tic, that was invented and "brought to the masses" by microsoft! Evil! Never-mind then!

Well Ted maybe I can be like you and just throw **** at a wall and see if it sticks.

1.Windows is more secure than OSX by a large magnitude.
2. Enterprise users and IT pro's chose windows as thier product of choice.
3. The only reason OSX appears to be safer is because no one writes viruses for an unpopular OS. Windows has 90ish% market lead.
4. Your a trolling fanboy that can't produce evidence for your **** spew.
5. You haven't been effectivly able to rebutil anything.

Oh, one thing I do have to ask is: where is the right click? I'm just so used to having an easy to access, contextual menu containing the most commonly used tasks on anything my mouse is pointed at that I kinda feel naked without it! Oh, hold on a tic, that was invented and "brought to the masses" by microsoft! Evil! Never-mind then!

Where is the third mouse button? The scroll-wheel? the multi-button mouse? Side scrolling? :)

Oh, one thing I do have to ask is: where is the right click? I'm just so used to having an easy to access, contextual menu containing the most commonly used tasks on anything my mouse is pointed at that I kinda feel naked without it! Oh, hold on a tic, that was invented and "brought to the masses" by microsoft! Evil! Never-mind then!

Where is the third mouse button? The scroll-wheel? the multi-button mouse? Side scrolling? :)

Macs have had multiple buttons since 1986, but most Mac users don't need the "training wheels" of a second / third button.

But to appease Windows users, all Macs come with 4 button mice and a precision scroll wheel.

Originally Posted by MalfoleoAnyway, took days to get this thing online, as I would enter in my wireless AP password, go to update something, reboot, only to find that it lost my password! Plus, the fact that it keeps asking for my password to do the simplest of things (like change the time on the clock) is starting to piss me off, so I just removed the password altogether from my account.

Another big problem is that none of the games I own work on this stupid thing! Not one! Sure, I could use an emulation environment, but it contains files pioneered by that evil, monopolistic mega-corp microsoft! So no way is that going to happen!

Oh, one thing I do have to ask is: where is the right click? I'm just so used to having an easy to access, contextual menu containing the most commonly used tasks on anything my mouse is pointed at that I kinda feel naked without it! Oh, hold on a tic, that was invented and "brought to the masses" by microsoft! Evil! Never-mind then!

And where is the start menu?

Liar, it's not losing you AP password upon restart.
Liar, changing the clock does not require a password. (the Mac clock auto syncs to the Atomic clock, why would you change it?)
Liar, ALL your PC Games run on the Mac, all without "emulation". check out CrossOver Games to run them without Windows.

By the way... Contextual Menus started on the Alto computer, where they were called pop-up menus... but NeXTSTEP (now named OSX) refined the way they are used today. Microsoft didn't steal it from NeXT until several years later.

The Start Menu? Why have an extra button just to start? Sounds inefficient.

Learn how the Dock works and you'll never go back to the primative Windows way of slowing you down.

On the plus side.... it's comfortable to use! Not like this peace of paper. If I want a mouse like your Apple crap, I would buy those 1$ mouse at the dollar shop, they have the same feature and are exact replica. Sure they are wired, but 1$ against 45$ for the same thing? I'll go wired for 1$.

HAHA that crap! So not only you need to buy this software witch needs updates which you need to pay, but it slows down your computer. And let's not factor out the price of your Apple computer. I think Bill Gates will be poor if he buys a Mac and buys everything to make it at level as a PC with Windows.

Quote:

The Start Menu? Why have an extra button just to start? Sounds inefficient.

Learn how the Dock works and you'll never go back to the primative Windows way of slowing you down.

how come? Complex configuration? No! Thanks to the quick launch bar which can be execute with the Win key and the number of it's location on the bar and thanks to Windows instant search.

On a mac: Take the mouse, move it at the bottom of the screen, wait until the movie of the docking rising finishes, and slowly move your mouse to analyze your 75 icons to find the application that you are looking for and click on it. Opening 2 instant of the application causes issue as you won't know which is the launcher and which is the opened application easily. And let's not forget, you can't just click on an icon, the icons hit detection is pixel perfect, so you have move your mouse EXATLY over the button, analyzing the icon, targeting the icon, and perform mathematical calculations to ensure that once you'll press on the mouse button your mouse won't move, so these mathematical calculation combined with the added physics calculation will insure that you don't move the mouse while you click.

Then you don't have a new Mac, open up the Mouse System Pref, do you see the 2 side buttons? If not, you have an old mouse. They are all 4 button versions over the last 2 years or so.

Ah, Logitech makes the Apple mouse, but I agree the Apple mouse is too light. (battery life is the same as any logitech on the wireless versions however) I mainly use a Multi-Touch trackpad nowadays, but use a trackball when I use my desktop. Mice are fine for casual use, but this huge trackpad really rocks... it's made from etched glass, sweet.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryLiar, it's not losing you AP password upon restart.
Liar, changing the clock does not require a password. (the Mac clock auto syncs to the Atomic clock, why would you change it?)
Liar, ALL your PC Games run on the Mac, all without "emulation". check out CrossOver Games to run them without Windows.

By the way... Contextual Menus started on the Alto computer, where they were called pop-up menus... but NeXTSTEP (now named OSX) refined the way they are used today. Microsoft didn't steal it from NeXT until several years later.

The Start Menu? Why have an extra button just to start? Sounds inefficient.

Learn how the Dock works and you'll never go back to the primative Windows way of slowing you down.

Ted

Actually: no. I am not a lier. Those are all valid complaints I've had from friends and family running Mac's in a home environment. Unfortunately it falls on me to fix and setup these devices, and I loath every second of it. Everything feels needlessly convoluted, misplaced, and hidden out of the obvious. And there is no fabled "right click" on a macbook, it's a key combo via the keyboard. Streamlined!

Whenever I step infront of a mac, I always feel as though it was designed never to have anybody fiddle with it under the hood, only look at it's shiny buttons, and gawk at the purdy animated icons.

For how much work it took just to get my sisters macbook networked with a printer, network drive, and multiple local computers was a real pain I never want to go through again.

You know how long it takes me to get a windows system setup on my network properly, functioning 100%? Don't know, never timed how long it takes me to enter in my network password.

Oh, and stop lieing, please. Most games that have been produced to date do not run (well, if at all) on macs, as they're not developed for them, so you have to utilize environment emulators. Even certain games that run on mac require emulators to be installed along side them (see: spore). The simple fact is that you're pulling stuff out of your arse and passing it off as fact.

Ted: you've been proven wrong multiple times, and yet you continue to post. Please, before you make yourself into an even bigger tool, stop.

Why it needs even more power than his Mac? Well I know it clearly does as demonstrated on his video. You cannot benchmark a Mac vs a PC, because both OS architecture is different, so the benchmark calculation has to be 100% different and is optimized differently.
It's like people benchmarking Vista with XP tools.... the moment as new benchmark version was release, Vista compatible, it did a major change and shows Vista significantly better than with the previous version, and now faster than XP (I am not saying it's less heavy, it just manages it's resources better than XP).

Originally Posted by MalfoleoActually: no. I am not a lier. Those are all valid complaints I've had from friends and family running Mac's in a home environment. Unfortunately it falls on me to fix and setup these devices, and I loath every second of it. Everything feels needlessly convoluted, misplaced, and hidden out of the obvious. And there is no fabled "right click" on a macbook, it's a key combo via the keyboard. Streamlined!

Whenever I step infront of a mac, I always feel as though it was designed never to have anybody fiddle with it under the hood, only look at it's shiny buttons, and gawk at the purdy animated icons.

For how much work it took just to get my sisters macbook networked with a printer, network drive, and multiple local computers was a real pain I never want to go through again.

You know how long it takes me to get a windows system setup on my network properly, functioning 100%? Don't know, never timed how long it takes me to enter in my network password.

Oh, and stop lieing, please. Most games that have been produced to date do not run (well, if at all) on macs, as they're not developed for them, so you have to utilize environment emulators. Even certain games that run on mac require emulators to be installed along side them (see: spore). The simple fact is that you're pulling stuff out of your arse and passing it off as fact.

then why do you continue to lie? sounds like the Mac is too sophisticated for you, that's all...

there is certainly a right click on a macbook, it's a simple setting in trackpad prefs.

setting up a macbook networked with a printer, network drive, and multiple local computers, takes less than 5 minutes, so why did you have so much trouble?

setting up a network on a Mac is actually quicker, but you don't know that yet.

and ALL PC Games run on any modern Mac, quit lying... People are laughing at you for making such a ridiculous error. no "Intel Mac" require emulators... you are talking about older PowerPC Macs, not current day Macs.

here's why most games do not run on a Mac: IT DOESN'T SUPPORT THE DX SERIES API!

the crossovergames and other projects simply emulate the functionality of the directx api, and there have been a lot of questions about the legality of these programs to begin with (copying code and API elements without Microsoft's consent or a software license)

also most mac video hardware is inefficient and the lockout chip built into the motherboard chokes the whole system.

I have created a hackintosh install on a regular machine before, and by running comparisons I can certainly tell you that a PC of similar/same hardware will be comparatively faster in application processing than a mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Landrythen why do you continue to lie? sounds like the Mac is too sophisticated for you, that's all...

setting up a macbook networked with a printer, network drive, and multiple local computers, takes less than 5 minutes, so why did you have so much trouble?

setting up a network on a Mac is actually quicker, but you don't know that yet.

and ALL PC Games run on any modern Mac, quit lying... People are laughing at you for making such a ridiculous error. no "Intel Mac" require emulators... you are talking about older PowerPC Macs, not current day Macs.

spore runs fine on Macs, quit your lying.

you continue to insult members of this forum, our intelligence, and proceed to call several of us outright liars, when we back up our arguments with valid facts, not marketing PR BullS*** like you do.

please, learn to create valid arguments before you post again. When/if you do, please post in a respectful, rather than demeaning manner.

here's why most games do not run on a Mac: IT DOESN'T SUPPORT THE DX SERIES API!

also most mac video hardware is inefficient and the lockout chip built into the motherboard chokes the whole system.

I have created a hackintosh install on a regular machine before, and by running comparisons I can certainly tell you that a PC of similar/same hardware will be comparatively faster in application processing than a mac.

you continue to insult members of this forum, our intelligence, and proceed to call several of us outright liars, when we back up our arguments with valid facts, not marketing PR BullS*** like you do.

please, learn to create valid arguments before you post again. When/if you do, please post in a respectful, rather than demeaning manner.

then boot via bootcamp, then ANY PC Game will run just fine.

a lockout chip? rriiiiggghht!

we're not talking about running OSX on poor quality PC hardware, we're talking running Windows Games on a real Mac, so step it up a notch or do not post.

Originally Posted by Ted Landrythen boot via bootcamp, then ANY PC Game will run just fine.

a lockout chip? rriiiiggghht!

we're not talking about running OSX on poor quality PC hardware, we're talking running Windows Games on a real Mac, so step it up a notch or do not post.

thank you

And pay for two os's or just boot xp and if you want a proper *nix run linux or freebsd

Yet more PR bullshit my good man, Macs run the same hardware that comes of the same production lines as any pc hardware its the definition of commodity hardware. Only difference is that apple do what dell and every other big box pusher, they select high end parts where they the specs are published ie cpu, ram and then fill the rest of the box with ****, crappy nb, noisy hard disk in the case of the mac especially CRAP gfx cards.

oh yeah.... :)<---- i forgot to laugh at you this morning.

so step it up a notch or do not post.

EDIT: On the topic of super gaming laptops it looks like apple just lost its crown...http://www.topnewsblog.info/tblog_11137.htm. This thing has two crappy 9800 gfx chips and super uber monster 9400 that they stole from an apple engineer under torcher at gitmo.

And pay for two os's or just boot xp and if you want a proper *nix run linux or freebsd

Yet more PR bullshit my good man, Macs run the same hardware that comes of the same production lines as any pc hardware its the definition of commodity hardware. Only difference is that apple do what dell and every other big box pusher, they select high end parts where they the specs are published ie cpu, ram and then fill the rest of the box with ****, crappy nb, noisy hard disk in the case of the mac especially CRAP gfx cards.

Technically, Linux isn't a "proper" *nix since it's not a fully compliant UNIX, while OSX is... read it and weep:

And don't make everyone laugh, sure PC firms use similar "manufacturing vendors" to build machines, but only Apple fully engineers their units and motherboards. The MacBooks are now carved out of a solid block of anodized aluminum, no other vendor is even close to that level of manufacturing. Check out the rather amazing video of how it is done... no more seams in a Laptop, very smart...

Or processor or gfx card or ram or screen or hard disk they don't even make the little on switch.

I know i posted this above but it bears repeating.

On the topic of super gaming laptops it looks like apple just lost its crown.... http://www.topnewsblog.info/tblog_11137.htm. This thing has two crappy 9800 gfx chips and super uber monster 9400 that they stole from an apple engineer under torcher at gitmo.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryIncorrect, Apple fully engineers its motherboards and has since 1976. Intel only builds the "custom" processors for them, that's why stock Macs always outperform stock PCs.

Yes, Apple no longer manufactures the boards, they stopped doing that around 1997, but they certainly do not use any Intel mobo's.

1) Apple does not use custom proccessors, intel has no reason to custom design a processor for one OEM, regardless of who as it's profit margins would be unfavorable (standard business practices at work)

2) They use intel designed motherboards. run CPU-Z on your precious mac and you'll see it uses the same intel chipsets as every other PC, only difference on a mac is that it has a chip that prevents anything but OSX from being installed on the machine (which is proprietary crap, but thats another issue)

3) DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU SPOUT MORE S***!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Landry

only Apple fully engineers their units and motherboards. The MacBooks are now carved out of a solid block of anodized aluminum, no other vendor is even close to that level of manufacturing. Check out the rather amazing video of how it is done... no more seams in a Laptop, very smart...

I'm an aerospace engineer by training, and milling parts from large blocks of aluminum should only ever be done where absolutely necessary, as it is both costly and wasteful of raw material, since it is very difficult to recycle the shavings. (they often reach flashpoint in the furnace due to low mass and often burn rather than re-melt)

yes it might be mildly impressive, but it also has the problem of being expensive to replace if damaged, and expensive in the first place.

if I were going for value for money in laptops I would either get a Toshiba portege or one from the Lenovo range.

@Blue So true! I have a friend whose dad machines parts for Indy cars. They machine most of their parts out of titanium and don't waste anything. The cost in waste is higher than the part itself so they use as little material as possible.

Incorrect, you are confusing manufacturing with engineering. Apple has never outsourced engineering of their motherboards, ever.

Look at the link you posted, look at the date... it clearly was a rumor at the time, but when shipped, it's clear Apple did the motherboard, and the case, and the software... Intel only supplied the processor.

That's why Apple has printed Copyright on every motherboard since 1978. Apple is a pure engineering company, much like HP used to be in the 60's through 80's... before they and all generic PC Vendors outsourced hardware design.

Only SUN, IBM and Apple do custom work... the rest are engineered / manufactured overseas.

But thanks for trying!

Someday you too will own a Mac and be impressed by how much Apple puts into their products, but until then, you'll have to suffer with a poor quality Mac clone.

Apple make pretty things, Intel make motherboards and cpus, back in the day Motorola made motherboards and cpus for apple then IBM did. At no point has Apple ever ENGINEERED a motherboard or CPU or even a ****ing stick of ram.

I can also tell you that my performa 400 from back in the day doesn't have a apple copyright on the motherboard but on the apple symbol printed on the motherboard below the part number....

Designing is engineering! Creative thought is used in producing the object. You mixed engineering up with manufacturing not me. Also that rumor became true all Apple did was put their sticker on the final product. Foxconn a Taiwan based manufacturer built Apples mobos and Intel helped Apple design a mobo that could support the Intel CPU.

There is a better chance of me being re-activated and going back to Iraq before I’ll buy a Mac. I've been using Windows based systems for over 18yrs. The fact that anyone buys a computer off the shelf blows my mind. I built a custom PC from scratch for 1/2 the cost of a off the shelf rig.

Apple make pretty things, Intel make motherboards and cpus, back in the day Motorola made motherboards and cpus for apple then IBM did. At no point has Apple ever ENGINEERED a motherboard or CPU or even a ****ing stick of ram.

I can also tell you that my performa 400 from back in the day doesn't have a apple copyright on the motherboard but on the apple symbol printed on the motherboard below the part number....

What? Neither MOT, IBM nor Intel has never designed or built motherboards for Apple, only processors. Those companies simply don't have the skills to do high end custom work that matches Apple's needs. Your Performa mobo has an Apple Copyright, you just don't know where to look.

Apple helped Intel get up to speed with the Core Duos, and obviously Apple was part of the AIM alliance that designed the PowerPC. Now Apple owns its own chip design firm since those companies aren't able to keep up with the demands of Apple engineers.

Originally Posted by UrbanMarineDesigning is engineering! Creative thought is used in producing the object. You mixed engineering up with manufacturing not me. Also that rumor became true all Apple did was put their sticker on the final product. Foxconn a Taiwan based manufacturer built Apples mobos and Intel helped Apple design a mobo that could support the Intel CPU.

There is a better chance of me being re-activated and going back to Iraq before I’ll buy a Mac. I've been using Windows based systems for over 18yrs. The fact that anyone buys a computer off the shelf blows my mind. I built a custom PC from scratch for 1/2 the cost of a off the shelf rig.

Great, but why you want a poorly built machine is odd... everyone laughs at the custom build market once they own a Mac... you just don't get the build quality, the software availability, nor the joy out of a custom rig. You sound like a redneck, that likes noisy cars and cheap women. That's fine if you have no education (no wonder you still support the war) but people that want the best in their lives always use Macs.

The Mac clones are for the K-Mart crowd, which it seems you are happy with. A Mac is a better value $ for $, but until you become educated, you won't understand what I am saying.

I like my machine that does not burn, blow up, damage when I load Mac OSX.
You want more sites, Ted? I know a lot more of them! Good quality my ass! A 50$ Acer laptop MASSACRE the quality of these Apple computers.

Apple can't even make a clock that works on an iPod.
I have has 3 iPods all different.
- iPod Photo
- iPod Nano 1st Gen
- iPod video last gen.

If you don't use iTunes to allow the software to sync the time, it gets wrong after a day. And I am not talking about 1 min off, I am talking about 5 or more hours. And let's not forget the time freeze issue that plague all iPods when you don't use iTunes. If Apple can't program a stupid clock, than I am sorry, they are crap. This is my last iPod. I can go on, on additional issues on iPods, but this is not the topic of this discussion.

My services which I offer to many in custom build computers presents elegant class design, where every parts integrate nicely with another, all by filling my client needs. And all pass trough rigorous testing that surpasses any brands. Chances that a user has a hardware related problem after 3 years is slim to none.
These people that laugh at custom build computers is because they go "I want the CHHEEAAPPEST, I dont' care what, I want the CHEAPEST computer possible that fit somewhat my needs for today, not tomorrow,, just now!" So what does he get, a 500$ PC, beige ugly case, noisy, non-color matching computer parts and peripherals, crap quality, noisy, and so on, even after they were warn several time. And then go "You know what, it sucks after 5 years, I am going to get a Mac! I am going to cash out everything I got for it.". Well OF COURSE they will see a huge difference, but if they paid much less they could match the same system all with the elegant design they are looking for, even more.

Originally Posted by Ted Landryeveryone laughs at the custom build market once they own a Mac...

ah, more massive generalizations. You are wrong. I have had 3 friends (all who used macs most of their lives) who commissioned my services in building replacement computers. (each of which has been used for much longer than any of their previous macs)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Landryyou just don't get the build quality, the software availability, nor the joy out of a custom rig.

bull, bull, and more bull.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryThat's fine if you have no education (no wonder you still support the war)

He has never said he supports the war, he has only made it clear he supports his brother marines.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryWhat? Neither MOT, IBM nor Intel has never designed or built motherboards for Apple, only processors. Those companies simply don't have the skills to do high end custom work that matches Apple's needs. Your Performa mobo has an Apple Copyright, you just don't know where to look.

Apple helped Intel get up to speed with the Core Duos, and obviously Apple was part of the AIM alliance that designed the PowerPC. Now Apple owns its own chip design firm since those companies aren't able to keep up with the demands of Apple engineers.

Now you really are starting to sound like some perverted preacher, GOD is there you just don't know where to look.... idiot.
Show me, there an plenty pics on the web. Now lets see some links showing that apple actualy ENGINEERED some of these mobos

You can leave all this silly pedantic nonsense about technicalities to one side for all I care. One thing that makes Macs a non-starter for me is price.

Just checked the apple Store and apparently £1800 will get me a mac pro with a MASSIVE 320Gb drive and a AWESOME Radeon 2600 video card with a MASSIVE 256Mb of video RAM.

Wow! a bargain. I couldn't possibly outclass that with £1800 to spend on a new PC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryAnd now that the Mac Laptops are the fastest Game machines, you'll be quite happy with your purchase.

Congrats!

I'm still reeling from the absurdity of that statement 1 hour after I initially read it.

I was gonna build a high end, massively OCed i7 based system, but hell.... I'll buy Mac laptop now instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryMacs have had multiple buttons since 1986, but most Mac users don't need the "training wheels" of a second / third button.

Mac users obviously don't play WoW then I take it :) Silly me, of course not. They're all "top" programmers..... Hmm.. makes you wonder why apple make the "Fastest game machne ever" then with their laptops... LOL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted LandryMacs have had multiple buttons since 1986, but most Mac users don't need the "training wheels" of a second / third button.

But to appease Windows users, all Macs come with 4 button mice and a precision scroll wheel.

Excuse me... I use this system at the college I lecture at, and it BLOWS! You are forever inadvertently launching "Exposé" if you so much as exert .0000001 Nm lateral pressure upon the mouse. That scroll ball is useless... FAR too small to be actually worthwhile, and the one button - two button design doesn't work - it's forever getting it wrong. Oh.. and it's the WRONG shape!! Typical Apple form over function. Quite simply, the new Apple mice are ****! I would love to be more eloquent here, but they just really are ****. Simple.

Want to know what great mouse is? Use a Logitech G5.

You can't buy entertainment like this.

Ted.. I want to marry you and have your children... I realise this isn't possible of course, but lets hope Apple invent something.

Originally Posted by steveo_mcgNow lets see some links showing that apple actualy ENGINEERED some of these mobos

:)

look at ANY motherboard made by Apple in the last 32 years, and they are all engineered in Cupertino... sure, after about 1997 they were "manufactured" elsewhere... but Apple fully designs their products from the tip of the trackpad / mouse to the last pixel of their screens. Only SUN and IBM remain as companies that do this high level work.

Originally Posted by Ted Landrylook at ANY motherboard made by Apple in the last 32 years, and they are all engineered in Cupertino... sure, after about 1997 they were "manufactured" elsewhere... but Apple fully designs their products from the tip of the trackpad / mouse to the last pixel of their screens.

Someday, you too will get a Mac, so don't worry!

Wrong, LG manufactures the LCD panels for Apple which are the same pannles found in Dell monitors, LG manufactures the design and engineering was done by phillips. The only design Apple has ever done is casing, nothing else, and that's why custom builders have the option of putting in higher quality parts at a lower cost.

The difference between the Dell monitor and the Apple monitor are minimal, the only technological difference is in the backlighting technique. Here Dell wins as it is the superior company. Dell provides a brighter display with more acurate color along with 600:1 contrast ratio compared to Apples 400:1 and 12ms response time compared to Apples 14 ms response time, all quantitative measurements. It's just like apple to **** up a great LCD pannel with cheap out-dated technology, just like their pc's.

Apple sucks at making just about everything, screens, pc's, mp3 players. You name it, they fail, except for one thing. Apple makes some great "looking" stuff if you want over the top, flashy, electronics albeit with no quality at all.

Hmmm... I think I know where Ted comes up with when he says that Mac's are more powerful than PC's....

Now this is just from memory, because I recall laughing at that, but was so long ago...
Anyone (except for Ted), willing to correct me on this, please feel free.

At one point in time, for a few weeks, when Apple was using the IBM CPU's, this was before the last generations of Athlon XP's and when Intel still had the P4 and when computer manufacture companies such as Dell, HP, etc... didn't put any powerful P4's in or Athlon XP's in their system. A small void was created. Apple spent (rumor) a nice sum of money at many sites and magazines (CNet, just to name one), to proclaim that Apple computers was the most profitable. Taking advantage of this situation, (as only average users read these crap sources, which most of them don't know the concept of custom build computer, let alone over-clocking, and all the CPU that is available on the market), by hiring actors to act as if they are professionals and say how Mac was able to do the rendering of their movies and such (remember that junk?) and posted it on their website. In result some studios and companies (oh and Ted) thinks that Mac is and still king.

As it was using a CPU that was not supported under Windows, some people speculated that yes maybe in fact this might be true as you can't compare using benchmark tools as they are on different operating systems, let alone different CPU (comparing chicken with apples), even thus, technically speaking they are ways to know with some time and resources and real time tests.

By using now the Intel CPU, Apple has no excuse showing that it's more powerful as it's the same CPU as on PC's. So there is no "maybe" that could be attached. So, Ted you are wrong.

This is nothing new, Apple has always been the top choice for speedy units... but what you also might not realize is there is a small segment of the PC market that wastes a lot of time revving up "stock machines" to perform 5%, 10% faster than what the big boys do like HP, Apple, DeLL, etc... so they go around saying "the machine i just soldered together and wasted 10 days of my life to put together runs XYZ program, 6% Faster!!!!" which is probably true... but when you look at the "Average Speed" based on volume of units, Macs are usually the fastest sold in the market.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryTrue, but Macs are always going to be the fastest Windows Laptops... you need to realize since Apple builds their own motherboards, they have the ability to build faster products than PC Vendors can.

From PCWorld:

PC World Confirms - The Fastest Windows Vista Notebook is the MacBook Pro

This is nothing new, Apple has always been the top choice for speedy units... but what you also might not realize is there is a small segment of the PC market that wastes a lot of time revving up "stock machines" to perform 5%, 10% faster than what the big boys do like HP, Apple, DeLL, etc... so they go around saying "the machine i just soldered together and wasted 10 days of my life to put together runs XYZ program, 6% Faster!!!!" which is probably true... but when you look at the "Average Speed" based on volume of units, Macs are usually the fastest sold in the market.

Photoshop runs faster on a windows machine. 3DSmax runs faster on a windows machine. Games run faster on a windows machine. Benchmarks are one thing real-life is another.

Originally Posted by Ted Landrylook at ANY motherboard made by Apple in the last 32 years, and they are all engineered in Cupertino... sure, after about 1997 they were "manufactured" elsewhere... but Apple fully designs their products from the tip of the trackpad / mouse to the last pixel of their screens. Only SUN and IBM remain as companies that do this high level work.

Someday, you too will get a Mac, so don't worry!

I had one, it was ****.....

I had a powerpc but i discovered that a good pc could be built for less and that window 98se wasn't as bad as the original 98 so I jumped ship and never looked back. Back in the day system 6 was miles better than win 95 and system 6 was released a few years earlier but tbh since 2k the os advantages between the two are close to minimal if you use it for real work and i only use my pc for games and real work not for gawping at the pretty case and fancy effects in the os, pretty much why i run xp in 2k mode and fluxbox in linux.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryTrue, but Macs are always going to be the fastest Windows Laptops... you need to realize since Apple builds their own motherboards, they have the ability to build faster products than PC Vendors can.

just because they build their own boards doesn't meant that they are good at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Landry

From PCWorld:

PC World Confirms - The Fastest Windows Vista Notebook is the MacBook Pro

Originally Posted by GoodBytes~10% market share is hardly popular... and it's diminishing as people realize how crap it is.

but keep in mind Apple owns the top 10% of the market, 60% of the above $2,000 class machines and Apple is the 3rd biggest vendor after HP and DeLL which have been marginalized to just make generic Mac Clones.

ah, Macs are extremely popular, this panorama photo from yesterday says it all :)

the output from one store for one day would only be relevent if the tome period was 1 week and there were ~10 stores. in apples case you'd need to take the quarterly sales from at least 10% of its stores and 10% of its online sales and comapre it to the same of all the PC OEM's combined.

I think what you will find is that for every mac sold there are vastly more windows machines sold.

Originally Posted by Ted Landrybut keep in mind Apple owns the top 10% of the market, 60% of the above $2,000 class machines and Apple is the 3rd biggest vendor after HP and DeLL which have been marginalized to just make generic Mac Clones.

Oh yeah, Dell and HP make Apple clones... RIGHT! [/sarcasm]

And it's not because it'll cost you an arm and a leg, that it's good... Altough 10% of the total market seems a bit too much, more like 1% or less... of the expensive bloat market it could be 60%, because when you want to spend big on a system, you don't buy premade crap, except for premade Apple crap...

It must be noted that 10% is the number of sales.... not the number of people using MacOS, or actually using the computer.
In fact if you come to Montreal, look at some coffee shops or university, I can tell you that (being generous) 1 in every 20 Mac user actually run Mac OS, they all run Windows XP or Vista (or a Linux distro. for some)

Originally Posted by Ted Landrybut keep in mind Apple owns the top 10% of the market, 60% of the above $2,000 class machines and Apple is the 3rd biggest vendor after HP and DeLL which have been marginalized to just make generic Mac Clones.

ah, Macs are extremely popular, this panorama photo from yesterday says it all :)

All completely irrelevant because that doesn't take into account the HUGE amount of home built PCs made each year from individual components, and that alone is the main reason most people opt for a PC instead of a Mac in the first place. PCs over £2000 are generally home builds and not a preconfigured box of crap.

One other thing that really, really bugs me about Apple is this attitude that Apple people buy Apples because they're individual and don't follow the crowd... yet end up buying a box that looks exactly the same as every other apple box.

You want individuality and the ability to express yourself? The ONLY logical choice is a PC then isn't it? You may like to look through the Project logs section to re-acquaint yourself with what individuality in computing is all about at this point Ted.

I've come to the conclusion that no normal person is so rabidly "pro" anything outside of religion and politics, so therefore I am assuming he is simply a troll.

As fun as this thread is going, I think enough points has been made here on Apple ""Computers"", and now the discussion is not moving, and Ted is spiting out the same crap like some kind of brain washed cockroach/parrot mutant, which keeps insulting us non-stop. I vote for closing this thread and temporary or indefinitely banning him, unless he publicly apologies to all of us.

Originally Posted by Ted LandryGreat, but why you want a poorly built machine is odd... everyone laughs at the custom build market once they own a Mac... you just don't get the build quality, the software availability, nor the joy out of a custom rig. You sound like a redneck, that likes noisy cars and cheap women. That's fine if you have no education (no wonder you still support the war) but people that want the best in their lives always use Macs.

The Mac clones are for the K-Mart crowd, which it seems you are happy with. A Mac is a better value $ for $, but until you become educated, you won't understand what I am saying.

Yup, I'm a dumb redneck INCORRECT. Actually I'm a young educated man that served my country because pussies like you hide behind the walls we real men provide. As for my education I'm affraid you are way off sir. MY first college degree was from OSU and I graduated with a 3.86GPA in International Studies. I'm currently working on my masters in Political Science which as of now I have a 4.0GPA. Prior to college I spent time in the USMC and fought in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I do not support the Iraq war and I only support the justified Afghanistan war. It's people like you that makes me wish the planes hit your home instead of the towers. You're a feeble little MacFanboy that needs to do the world a favor and kill yourself.

Originally Posted by UrbanMarineYup, I'm a dumb redneck INCORRECT. Actually I'm a young educated man that served my country because pussies like you hide behind the walls we real men provide. As for my education I'm affraid you are way off sir. MY first college degree was from OSU and I graduated with a 3.86GPA in International Studies. I'm currently working on my masters in Political Science which as of now I have a 4.0GPA. Prior to college I spent time in the USMC and fought in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I do not support the Iraq war and I only support the justified Afghanistan war. It's people like you that makes me wish the planes hit your home instead of the towers. You're a feeble little MacFanboy that needs to do the world a favor and kill yourself.