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Hartford MI, State Police to the Rescue

Its been a while since this has happened, but I have been very busy and havent had a chance to post it.

About 3 weeks ago I was in Michigan for a funeral. On the way back to Iowa, I stopped at the Hartford exit to fuel up and have a smoke. When I went inside for a snack, the cashier asked "Why are you carrying that gun?" I said, "To facilitate my natural right of self defense." He replied with, "So your not a police officer?" I said, "No sir. Thats why I carry a firearm." That part of the conversation was over. I paid for my goods, walked out to my car, pulled off to an empty part of the lot, got out, and lit a cigarette.

About 5 minutes later, I noticed 3 state police cars, 2 county cars, and 3 local cars, all looking very busy. The state boys had pulled over a few cars. County cars the same. The three local cars, however, pulled up to me standing in the parking lot.

Just so everyone doesnt freak out, I found out later that the county and state units were running their seatbelt scam at that intersection, that was the reason for the mass LE.

Anywho,
I was leaning against my car with my back to the road when the first local unit arrived. She pulled up behind me with her drivers side door towards me. I told the person on the phone that I would call back once I realised she was there for me.

I turned around and said hello. This is the remainder of the conversation:
Please keep in mind that this interaction was pretty much all very light hearted and friendly up until a certain point. Youll realise when it starts getting a little heated from their end.

Me: Hello!
LEO 1: How ya doin?
Me: Just fine. Can I help you with something?
LEO 1: Yeah. Im sorry to say, the cashier in the station called about your gun.
Me: Bummer.
LEO 1: It just makes people nervous.
Me: Well, that just goes to show what the media has done for us law abiding citizens.
LEO 1: Very true. Still, we have to check it out.
Me: Understandable.
(Just then the Chief of Hartford Police Arrives, along with another local officer)
Me: How are ya?!
Chief: Good. Do you have any felonies.
Me: What makes you ask that?
Chief: Because if you have a felony you are not supposed to be in possession of a firearm.
Me: Well, I have a firearm, what does that tell you?
Chief: But I dont know if you have a felony or not. Can you give this officer your ID?
Me: Id rather not. Am I being detained?
Chief: Well we are investigating why you have a gun, so I need to see your ID.
Me: Am I lawfully required to provide you with ID?
Chief: Yes sir, you are.
Me: What statute requires me to show identification for carry a firearm?
Chief: I dont know that off hand sir.
Me: Oh. Ok, well, if you can cite the law that says I am required to ID myself for carrying a firearm, Ill be more than happy to do so.
LEO 1(still friendly): Let me just explain something sir. We got a call that someone was here carrying a firearm, and our job is to check that person out, make sure there is nothing illegal going on. And in order to make sure your legally carrying that firearm, we need to identify you and make sure you dont have any felonies.
Me: I understand why your here. However, I am not required by michigan law to identify myself unless you have reasonable suspicion that I am committing a crime. So, Ill ask, am I doing anything illegal?
LEO 1: Not right now.
Chief (A little irritated): Regardless sir, if an officer asks you for identification, you are required to show that identification on demand.
Me: What law requires me to do so?
Chief: (Calls in something on the radio), Look, Im getting your identification, whether you like it or not.
Me: Well, in that case, I do not consent to a search of my person or property, however I will not resist any illegal attempts made at seizing my property from me, and I invoke my right to remain silent.

At this point, the Chief is thoroughly irritated and has walked up to one of the state police officers that had pulled up to see the action. Now, the officer that showed up with the Chief starts his questioning.

LEO 2: Whats your name?
Me: ...
LEO 2(trying to play good cop): Just relax sir, we are just trying to get his figured out. The sooner you give us your ID the sooner you will be on your way.
Me: Am I being detained?
LEO 2: I didnt say that?
Me: Am I free to go?
LEO 2: Look man, all we need is your name and address and youll be on your way.
Me: .....
Chief: Is this your vehicle?
Me:....
Chief: Sir, I asked you a question.
Me: I have already invoked my right to remain silent.
Chief: I see. Well, Ill tell you what, we can do this one of two ways. You can identify yourself, or we take your firearm from you, run the serial number, and get your information that way. Which one do you want to do?
Me: I have already informed you that I do not consent to any search and seizure of my person or property, however, I will not resist any force used against me by you or your officers to do so.

Just then, as if sent from heaven, the State Police officer that was watching walked up and asked to speak to the chief and LEO2.

LEO 1: So how do you like Michigan?
Me: Its nice.
LEO 1: We have had some lovely weather lately!
Me: Sure have!

Chief walks up after talking with the State LEO.

Chief: You can go sir?
Me: Am I free to go?
Chief: Yes sir.
Me: Have a great day!

I feel that the local police were not sure how to handle the situation and seemed to pull the power card when confronted with the problem. However, the State LEO seemed to correct them and I was sent on my way. It was a good feeling knowing there are some LEO's out there who know the rules/laws regarding open carry.

All in all I feel good about standing my ground. I am proud to know that the members of Michigan OC are doing their part to unsure my rights.

Comments on anything different I could have done during the encounter are welcome.

Hmmm seems I may have to chat with the fellows over breakfast about this. You know the worst part is I have OCed around these guys many many times with nothing said... of course they know me and I have a MI plate. Trust me when I say they know it's legal.. sounds like they got a little ahead of themselves on this occasion and forgot reality. Sounds like the state boy explained the facts of life to em. I will follow this up when I get back in MI and make sure they have a copy of the pertinent documents.

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Very Impressive

That exchange between you and the LEO's was terrific. Your answers were not only correct, but stated in such a way so as to put them on the defensive. I only wish I could be half as effective if anything like that happened to me.

Hmmm seems I may have to chat with the fellows over breakfast about this. You know the worst part is I have OCed around these guys many many times with nothing said... of course they know me and I have a MI plate. Trust me when I say they know it's legal.. sounds like they got a little ahead of themselves on this occasion and forgot reality. Sounds like the state boy explained the facts of life to em. I will follow this up when I get back in MI and make sure they have a copy of the pertinent documents.

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

This.
Sounds like you did GREAT! Did you have a recorder going?

"Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
Bam!" - eastmeyers

"Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
God Bless

I'm sure you knew this, as a former Michigan resident, only if you purchased/possessed the firearm while living in Michigan would they be able to run the handgun's numbers. You handed yourself very well.

Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

"Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

I'm sure you knew this, as a former Michigan resident, only if you purchased/possessed the firearm while living in Michigan would they be able to run the handgun's numbers. You handed yourself very well.

I was thinking this too, and what is funny, is a lot, if not most LEO's in MI don't know this. They believe its the norm, and are clueless that MOST states do not have illegal registration. Can you imagine how quick the cuffs and pistols would have come out of the holsters if they ran you SN and nothing came back. YIKES!

"Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
Bam!" - eastmeyers

"Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
God Bless

...darn open carry zealots -- you're just like the Borg. This fine officer was just trying to do his job and you had to give him a hard time. Why no just cooperate? I'll tell you why, YOU ARE ALL ATTENTION ******!!

It's you OC Zealots that are destroying gun rights for the rest of us in Michigan -- with this and your "code pink" tactics at CADL....

(Any serious replies to this post will force me to continue playing the role of cmike...sighs)

Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

Its been a while since this has happened, but I have been very busy and havent had a chance to post it.

About 3 weeks ago I was in Michigan for a funeral. On the way back to Iowa, I stopped at the Hartford exit to fuel up and have a smoke. When I went inside for a snack, the cashier asked "Why are you carrying that gun?" I said, "To facilitate my natural right of self defense." He replied with, "So your not a police officer?" I said, "No sir. Thats why I carry a firearm." That part of the conversation was over. I paid for my goods, walked out to my car, pulled off to an empty part of the lot, got out, and lit a cigarette.

About 5 minutes later, I noticed 3 state police cars, 2 county cars, and 3 local cars, all looking very busy. The state boys had pulled over a few cars. County cars the same. The three local cars, however, pulled up to me standing in the parking lot.

Just so everyone doesnt freak out, I found out later that the county and state units were running their seatbelt scam at that intersection, that was the reason for the mass LE.

Anywho,
I was leaning against my car with my back to the road when the first local unit arrived. She pulled up behind me with her drivers side door towards me. I told the person on the phone that I would call back once I realised she was there for me.

I turned around and said hello. This is the remainder of the conversation:
Please keep in mind that this interaction was pretty much all very light hearted and friendly up until a certain point. Youll realise when it starts getting a little heated from their end.

Me: Hello!
LEO 1: How ya doin?
Me: Just fine. Can I help you with something?
LEO 1: Yeah. Im sorry to say, the cashier in the station called about your gun.
Me: Bummer.
LEO 1: It just makes people nervous.
Me: Well, that just goes to show what the media has done for us law abiding citizens.
LEO 1: Very true. Still, we have to check it out.
Me: Understandable.
(Just then the Chief of Hartford Police Arrives, along with another local officer)
Me: How are ya?!
Chief: Good. Do you have any felonies.
Me: What makes you ask that?
Chief: Because if you have a felony you are not supposed to be in possession of a firearm.
Me: Well, I have a firearm, what does that tell you?
Chief: But I dont know if you have a felony or not. Can you give this officer your ID?
Me: Id rather not. Am I being detained?
Chief: Well we are investigating why you have a gun, so I need to see your ID.
Me: Am I lawfully required to provide you with ID?
Chief: Yes sir, you are.
Me: What statute requires me to show identification for carry a firearm?
Chief: I dont know that off hand sir.
Me: Oh. Ok, well, if you can cite the law that says I am required to ID myself for carrying a firearm, Ill be more than happy to do so.
LEO 1(still friendly): Let me just explain something sir. We got a call that someone was here carrying a firearm, and our job is to check that person out, make sure there is nothing illegal going on. And in order to make sure your legally carrying that firearm, we need to identify you and make sure you dont have any felonies.
Me: I understand why your here. However, I am not required by michigan law to identify myself unless you have reasonable suspicion that I am committing a crime. So, Ill ask, am I doing anything illegal?
LEO 1: Not right now.
Chief (A little irritated): Regardless sir, if an officer asks you for identification, you are required to show that identification on demand.
Me: What law requires me to do so?
Chief: (Calls in something on the radio), Look, Im getting your identification, whether you like it or not.
Me: Well, in that case, I do not consent to a search of my person or property, however I will not resist any illegal attempts made at seizing my property from me, and I invoke my right to remain silent.

At this point, the Chief is thoroughly irritated and has walked up to one of the state police officers that had pulled up to see the action. Now, the officer that showed up with the Chief starts his questioning.

LEO 2: Whats your name?
Me: ...
LEO 2(trying to play good cop): Just relax sir, we are just trying to get his figured out. The sooner you give us your ID the sooner you will be on your way.
Me: Am I being detained?
LEO 2: I didnt say that?
Me: Am I free to go?
LEO 2: Look man, all we need is your name and address and youll be on your way.
Me: .....
Chief: Is this your vehicle?
Me:....
Chief: Sir, I asked you a question.
Me: I have already invoked my right to remain silent.
Chief: I see. Well, Ill tell you what, we can do this one of two ways. You can identify yourself, or we take your firearm from you, run the serial number, and get your information that way. Which one do you want to do?
Me: I have already informed you that I do not consent to any search and seizure of my person or property, however, I will not resist any force used against me by you or your officers to do so.

Just then, as if sent from heaven, the State Police officer that was watching walked up and asked to speak to the chief and LEO2.

LEO 1: So how do you like Michigan?
Me: Its nice.
LEO 1: We have had some lovely weather lately!
Me: Sure have!

Chief walks up after talking with the State LEO.

Chief: You can go sir?
Me: Am I free to go?
Chief: Yes sir.
Me: Have a great day!

I feel that the local police were not sure how to handle the situation and seemed to pull the power card when confronted with the problem. However, the State LEO seemed to correct them and I was sent on my way. It was a good feeling knowing there are some LEO's out there who know the rules/laws regarding open carry.

All in all I feel good about standing my ground. I am proud to know that the members of Michigan OC are doing their part to unsure my rights.

Comments on anything different I could have done during the encounter are welcome.

*The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

handled very well,i would have LOVED to hear the recording,does anybody think it would be worth trying to FOIA it from the LEO's so that it could be used for reference purposes on how to conduct yourselves?

...darn open carry zealots -- you're just like the borg. This fine officer was just trying to do his job and you had to give him a hard time. Why no just cooperate? I'll tell you why, you are all attention ******!!

It's you oc zealots that are destroying gun rights for the rest of us in michigan -- with this and your "code pink" tactics at cadl....

(any serious replies to this post will force me to continue playing the role of cmike...sighs)

'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

I was thinking this too, and what is funny, is a lot, if not most LEO's in MI don't know this. They believe its the norm, and are clueless that MOST states do not have illegal registration. Can you imagine how quick the cuffs and pistols would have come out of the holsters if they ran you SN and nothing came back. YIKES!

Believe it or not, it happens enough that the absence of its registration showing up in LEIN may or may not cause further complications. And yes, most MSP troopers and other Michigan LEOS every state has similar requirements as, apparently, do most television shows. I watched one recently where the criminals had unregistered long guns.

Last edited by DrTodd; 06-17-2011 at 03:18 PM.

Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

"Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

I was thinking this too, and what is funny, is a lot, if not most LEO's in MI don't know this. They believe its the norm, and are clueless that MOST states do not have illegal registration. Can you imagine how quick the cuffs and pistols would have come out of the holsters if they ran you SN and nothing came back. YIKES!

what about federal 4473 form I WOULD imagine that info is put in to some kind of data LEO might be able to access?????? I would think Iowa residents would have to fill out that form if the gun is bought at a gun store ect???

what about federal 4473 form I WOULD imagine that info is put in to some kind of data LEO might be able to access?????? I would think Iowa residents would have to fill out that form if the gun is bought at a gun store ect???

Someone here that works at a Gun Shop, or someone with an FFL can chime in, but if I am not mistaken, the only thing a 4473 does is let the store know you are good to go to purchase. It does not tell the FBI/BATFE that you have or have not purchased anything. Or what, or the SN's. Correct? I could be wrong. I think the store may keep a copy for personal records, maybe, I dunno.

"Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
Bam!" - eastmeyers

"Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
God Bless