Woz, I refer you to a post I made 6 months ago to the seemingly defunct sufc.loyal when he was trumpeting the virtues of England's football team:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

sufc.loyal, it's almost painful to read your posts. Time after time, year after year, you Poms hang on to the desperate hope that maybe this time it will be different, that this time The Old Dart will bring home the bacon.

Yet deep down you KNOW it won't happen. It can't happen. 1966 was a bizarre and unlikely event never to be repeated.

Even if you are the best football team in the world with daylight second something will transpire - the "hand of god", a moment of madness, a dog will run on the field to do whoopsies at an inopportune moment, maybe even a freak earthquake - to ensure that you once again grasp defeat from the jaws of victory.

You are British. It's just how things are.

At least, unlike us, you don't spend half your GDP on sport and then crow about being the best bloody sporting nation pound for pound on the planet. I'd take your glorious pathos over our misplaced triumphalism any day :)

I could claim that I have octopus-like predictive abilities but I'd be lying. Just that Aussies understand you Poms :)

Being from the Netherlands, I never believed that our national team would make it past the quarter finals. Especially after seeing them play...
I also think Spain deserved the title, even though they have some of the physically weakest players I have seen. They go down so easy. Unfortunately, soccer systematically rewards weak players that go down easy. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that their passes were all just perfect and fast, while the Dutch were slow and sloppy to pass the ball and let a few great chances of scoring a goal just fly away...

Kudos to the Dutch goalkeeper Maarten Stekelenburg though. Best keeper we've had in a while imho.

I wasn't quite impressed with him for the last couple of championships (since 2002), I was under the impression that he was already past his climax. A good goalkeeper, no doubt about that, but not the best there is to find anymore.

Yes. Pollyspanner, you are right, us English live on the dream of 1966, every 4 years, we hope and pray that this time, its our time, that football is actually going to come home.

I had very high hopes this time, i really thought that we had the manager and squad, but sadly we had neither, just highly paid players, who think they are football gods, who thought they could go to the world cup, and win it on reputation alone.

I love my football, but the English players have really, really, let me and alot of others down.

Wozzles, I think you're being too hard on them. The players gave their all but they simply choked because they were overcome by the pressure and fear of failure.

They knew that if they failed people would say they "think they are football gods, who thought they could go to the world cup, and win it on reputation alone ... the English players have really, really, let me and alot of others down".

I honestly believe that the British referee choose party for Spain in the finale. And no, it's not because I'm Dutch and we lost, thus I'm looking for an easy excuse or anything. I do believe in the Spanish team we met our match, we didn't play as well as we did against Brazil and Uruguay. Still in the international media we're depicted as 'a disgrace for the world cup', since during the game we got 10 (!) yellow cards.

But of all those 10 yellow cards, only one was valid, and that one was for a kick to the chest (forgot the name of the players involved). That was indeed quite a severe and unessescary act. But other than that, the Dutch team couldn't do anything or we'd get a yellow card. On the contrary for the Spanish team, who tackled several of our players but only got one yellow card. That is just plain unfair.

The Spanish team technically played better, which is why we lost, but the match was unfair due to the referee. Wether we'd won with a neutral referee is doubtfull though, but losing like this feels awkward. And again, no, I'm not looking for weak excuses here of why we lost. :)

Strange btw, how the World Cup has got my interest. I usually hate soccer.

Lex, that kick in the chest was outrageous. I can't work out why he didn't get a red card, which would have really messed up the team. I was going for Holland but after that decision, no matter how many things the ref may or may not have done wrong, I don't think they could logically complain about the ref.

I only pay attention to soccer at WC time too - I get off on the intensity and vibe passion of it all :)

Lex, that kick in the chest was outrageous. I can't work out why he didn't get a red card, which would have really messed up the team. I was going for Holland but after that decision, no matter how many things the ref may or may not have done wrong, I don't think they could logically complain about the ref.

I only pay attention to soccer at WC time too - I get off on the intensity and vibe passion of it all :)

Indeed it was outrageous, I was hugely dissapointed in my team when that happened. That should've been a red card. Worst piece of soccer I've seen by the Dutch team ever.

But other than that, we didn't do much wrong. Still we got 9 other yellow cards, on the contrary to Spain, who only got 1. Strange to say the least.

Again, also strange how the WC finale stirred me up so bad, I usually hate soccer.

I honestly believe that the British referee choose party for Spain in the finale. And no, it's not because I'm Dutch and we lost, thus I'm looking for an easy excuse or anything. I do believe in the Spanish team we met our match, we didn't play as well as we did against Brazil and Uruguay. Still in the international media we're depicted as 'a disgrace for the world cup', since during the game we got 10 (!) yellow cards.

But of all those 10 yellow cards, only one was valid, and that one was for a kick to the chest (forgot the name of the players involved). That was indeed quite a severe and unessescary act. But other than that, the Dutch team couldn't do anything or we'd get a yellow card. On the contrary for the Spanish team, who tackled several of our players but only got one yellow card. That is just plain unfair.

The Spanish team technically played better, which is why we lost, but the match was unfair due to the referee. Wether we'd won with a neutral referee is doubtfull though, but losing like this feels awkward. And again, no, I'm not looking for weak excuses here of why we lost. :)

Strange btw, how the World Cup has got my interest. I usually hate soccer.

There were more valid yellow cards, but there should have been more yellow cards for spain as well. That one red card was completely unnecessary; that spanish guy obviously just fell down in a struggle to get attention and a free kick.

The yellow card for Nigel de Jong's kick in the stomach was necessary, but you could obviously see on his face that he was shocked when he saw what he did. This was definitely not done on purpose. I believe the rules dictate that yellow cards must be given for being verbally or physically violent, not for just having a very, very clumsy moment.

I also generally hate soccer, but the world cup (and euro cup) has my interest as far as the Dutch team goes. I generally expect them to get kicked out of the tournament in the quarter finals. We have the players for the job, but apparently not the team.

Well, my knowledge of soccer rules is almost below 0%. I've been told that the kick to the chest was the only mistake we've made. Maybe we did more things wrong, but so did the Spanish team. And they only got one card. Still feels akward.

Well, my knowledge of soccer rules is almost below 0%. I've been told that the kick to the chest was the only mistake we've made. Maybe we did more things wrong, but so did the Spanish team. And they only got one card. Still feels akward.

My knowledge of soccer rules is pretty slim too and I was pulling for the Dutch before the game, but when I saw how they played I switched to rooting for Spain. I liked Spain's attacking style better too. They seemed to be going for it more.

The dirty play and the orange jerseys reminded me of the Philadelphia Flyers too much.

Well, sorry, but it just looked like the Dutch (we) couldn't even make a minor move or a yellow card got pulled out of the referee's pockets. That just does not in any way hold up in comparison to the Spanish team, who made just as many moves and at least some of them were yellow card worthy. Honestly, most yellow cards we got were unfair, (and no, I'm NOT implying that we didn't do anything wrong). In comparison to the number of things we did wrong it just doesn't hold up. To me, it was an unfair game, and I'm not just saying this because we lost. I would've also said this if we won.

To me, it was an unfair game, and I'm not just saying this because we lost. I would've also said this if we won.

Probably not ;) As you said, you have a limited knowledge of the game and it does take some experience to tell the difference between a yellow card offense and a tough but legal tackle. By any measure it's very hard to say that Holland were hard done by. They played a dirty game and were outclassed.

No I honeslty would. I'm not saying this because we lost, we were indeed technically out classed.

It just does not hold up. The number of yellow cards versus the number of true penalties.. I'd say, don't just look at the number of cards we got. I exaggerated stating that only one card was valid, but all ten? No way. Looking at the game, it felt like everytime we tackled a player of te Spanish team was a penalty. Not to mention the many times where a Spanish player tackled one of ours and did not get a card. Not every tackling action is a penalty of course, but it felt like every tackling action we undertook wás a penalty, on the contrary to Spain who undertook several tackling actions and only got one card. Not every tackle the Dutch team made was a penalty, yet we still would get a card for it.

I remember watching the game, and on several occasions a Spanish player just fell to the ground when a Dutch player got close to him, making it look like a tackle whilst it wasn't. And of course, we got a yellow card for it. This is why I'm saying we didn't play as dirty as the entire world now believes, as that terrible kick to the chest is now emphesized and used as an example of our playing during the game.

And yés, that very kick to the chest was indeed outrageous, should've been a red card.

I remember watching the game, and on several occasions a Spanish player just fell to the ground when a Dutch player got close to him, making it look like a tackle whilst it wasn't.

That's football (unfortunately). I wouldn't necessarily discuss this for too long as someone whose knowledge is almost below zero. You have to watch a reasonable amount of football games, then you'll have some more perspective.

Quote:

This is why I'm saying we didn't play as dirty as the entire world now believes

Probably not ;) As you said, you have a limited knowledge of the game and it does take some experience to tell the difference between a yellow card offense and a tough but legal tackle. By any measure it's very hard to say that Holland were hard done by. They played a dirty game and were outclassed.

It takes some experience but it is also very subjective as to the Referee. I have watched the World cup finals ref many times on the BPL matches and he can be very inconsistent. They all can. He gets one angle and must call it from that perspective. They get some help from the lines oficials but not that much. They, the refs, seem to have a notion as to how rough a team is and starts prejudging calls based on that. It is very unfortunate.

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Gretsch Renown

Indeed, football's in dire need of additional technology and/or officials; the tournament showed that the judgment of one ref isn't adequate. I still feel that Webb's major failing, apart from not sending de Jong off, was not being tougher on repeat offenses.

I can't see that Webb was prejudiced against Holland to start with, anyone with eyes could see how dirty they were playing. It was their tactic, not a reaction.

Funny that we're still talking about one of the worst games of one of the worst World Cups :p