one more draft IMO before we start to look like a real NFL team talent-wise. We need pro bowl caliber players at WR, RDE, and DB added before we can start thinking about competing.......and that's assuming that Brandon Weeden turns into a good, franchise QB.

I'll I heard was a lot of wishful thinking and little real facts. The guys job is on the line and another 4-12 season may well be his last in Cleveland.
I think Keylime is a lot more realistic and God help us if Weeden flops or doesn't come up to snuff for 3 or 4 seasons.

rotoworld: Coach Pat Shurmur says Greg Little and Mohamed Massaquoi are the Browns' "early starters" at receiver.
Little can be safely penciled in as the No. 1 wideout, but Massaquoi will have to fight off fourth-round pick Travis Benjamin. It's an advantage for Massaquoi to begin OTAs atop the depth chart, but he'll be far from guaranteed of starting in Week 1. He hasn't been the same player since his October 2010 concussion, and turned in a thoroughly unimpressive 2011. The Browns have proven almost comically hesitant to cut the cord on disappointing players, however, so Massaquoi's chances of winning the job can't be discounted.

Massa v Benjamin for the #2? Oh ****. I'd sooner make Norwood the #2. And are they forgetting which WR had the best camp last year? (Cribbs)Or are they going to phase him out like they did Hillis?

How to fix the Browns offense:
1-6. Someone innovative help Pat Shurmur. It's really head scratching that his offense actually did worse than Mangini's. Classic example of trying to fit guys to a system rather than building a system around your guys.

Quote:

rotoworld: 5/21 - Browns GM Tom Heckert says CB Sheldon Brown will not be moving to safety.
"Sheldon Brown is never going to play safety unless some disaster happens," Heckert said. "You can put that to bed." There have been rumblings of a position switch for Brown since his Philly days, but it's not happening in Cleveland. Now 33, Brown will be pushed for the No. 2 corner job by Dimitri Patterson and Buster Skrine. Usama Young and T.J. Ward are the Browns' starting safeties.

Quote:

rotoworld: 5/22 - Browns S Eric Hagg is working as the first-team free safety in OTAs.
Usama Young is running with the second team after starting eight games in 2011. A seventh-round pick last season, Hagg appeared in only 10 games, notching 11 tackles.

Yikes. Looks like a disaster to me.

Quote:

rotoworld:Browns GM Tom Heckert reiterated that the organization views rookie Brandon Weeden as its starting quarterback in 2012.
"The best guy’s gonna play, but we fully expect Brandon to be that guy," Heckert said. "... Right now that’s our goal is to have [Weeden] be the guy." Colt McCoy and Seneca Wallace are considered expendable backups at this point. Heckert said learning Pat Shurmur's West Coast offense has been "nothing" for Weeden.

I watched a ton of games of Weeden from last season but hadn't watched much of 10'. This is a good cut up of his first year starting at Ok State. Evaluate for yourself.

Quote:

rotoworld:Browns GM Tom Heckert says NT Phil Taylor (torn pectoral) will "definitely" return during the 2012 season.
"100%," said Heckert. "We think he'll be back end of October, early November. ... It's six months at the most, and that's being very, very cautious. He could be back earlier." Taylor will start the season on PUP, but the Browns expect him to return not long after. Scott Paxson is penciled in as the interim starter.

For a guy out of nowhere I liked Paxson last season. He was a better run defender then Taylor. I'm intrigued to see what he does with the opportunity.

-when Fujita is suspended Gocong will play SAM linebacker and either Johnson or Maiava will play WILL. I'm excited about seeing Johnson out there as a rookie 4th rounder starting at WILL.

-Taylor getting hurt stings. He will reportedly be out until November at least. I was looking forward to seeing our run defense drastically improved with a second year Taylor combined with Rucker (who is strong in run support) and the much needed quality depth we added at DT and DE this year.

-Our defensive line should still be decent though with rookies John Hughes (who excels at holding the point and stopping the run) and Billy Winn (under sized 3 tech who was a steal in round 6). What will really be big additions are Juqua Parker as a situational pass-rusher, and the return of Marcus Benard - who was our best pass rusher since we signed him as an UDFA and reportedly is unblockable off the edge in OTAs so far. I'm really excited about Benard. They will slide Rucker inside to DT on passing downs and put Benard or Parker out there at DE, so our pass rush will be better this year.

Gonna be a rough year this year though with that schedule and such a young team. We should be improved even though we'll probably only win 5 or 6 games.

i have no idea. i guess if they improve they'll keep him. a lot probably depends on the media heat and if he makes some of the same boneheaded coaching mistakes that he made last year. If we are healthy and we improve a lot on offense like we should then we probably win between 5 and 7 games with that schedule, and in that scenario i would keep him.

If the Browns only win 5 games or so do you think Shurmer will survive and be back next year?

I'll chime in, even though you didn't ask me. Mike Holmgren told Pat Shurmur that winning 4 or 5 games this year wouldn't be good enough. Whether that means Pat's job is on the line based on win totals this year wasn't mentioned, but it could be if Holmgren doesn't see enough progress in the offense, I'm guessing.

Believe it was during Tony Rizzo's interview with Holmgren a couple of weeks ago that I heard him say that. By the way, espncleveland.com has podcasts of interviews they've done recently. Rizzo's show is called The Really Big Show, just in case you aren't from the area and don't listen to that show.

keylime, the one position I hope you're wrong about is RG. Unless Lauvao proves his pass blocking has improved I'm hoping he gets beat out. Greco looked decent the little he played last year, and it's possible the rookie out of Colorado could push for some early playing time. Only problem with the latter is we'd have rookies at both RG and RT. If Greco starts they could put him at LG and use Pinkston at RG. If I recall correctly the little he did play, it was at LG mostly.

Only other thing I noticed from your list was Shaefering was missing. I liked him at DT a little better than Paxson, who's a little smaller.

If Lauvao gets beat out at RG that is about the worst case scenario we can have. We know what Greco and Cousins are. Below average run blockers. Lauvao basically missed his rookie year entirely due to injury so 2011 was basically his first season playing in the NFL. Hopefully he can improve this year and prove to be a solid starting guard. For the sake of this team hope and pray that Lauvao turns out to be the guy who wins the RG spot easily.

Schaefering I think could/will make the team with Taylor being hurt. Not sure how many DTs they wanna keep. Paxson is ahead of him though after a surprise year last year and the fact that he is running 1st team DT in minicamps/OTAs and the coaches mention him and the rookies competing for the starting spot with no mention of Schaefering.

If I were to revise that list I'd put Schaefering on it though -b/c I didn't realize that we didn't tender Titus Brown, so add Schaefering and remove Brown.

This year is going to be a long one, probably another 4-12 or 5-11 season, but it will prove to be very significant in the development of the entire team.

- After hating the initial pick, I am now happy with Weeden at 22. This gives the Browns at least three years of having continuity at the QB position (sadly even if he's terrible). I'm just happy with a decision being made.

- Phil Taylor is a great player, but his injury may open the door for the development of a deep and diverse tackle rotation. This will be huge for the development of both phases of the defense of years to come.

- I really believe the Holmgren and Heckert era will get another year, and I'm willing to wait to develop their guys, rather than have a new regime come in and cut or trade our only quality players. This happens too much in this quick to anger, and quick to fire league. I want this year and next year to still be a transitional phase. By next year, with another solid draft, I believe the team will be fighting a solid Steeler team, an up and down Bengals team, and a Ravens team that could go two ways, depending on their defense and their defense's age.

At this point I'm not sure what to expect in regards to final record. So many unknowns, which actually will make it an interesting year to watch. I doubt the offense could be as bad as it was last season. Pre-season will give us a hint of what's to come, but the 'real' 2012 Browns may not be apparent until the third or fourth game, since we will have rookies at QB, RB, and RT.

On offense I'll be intrigued by the following:

1) Brad Childress and how much of a difference he makes as OC. From what I understand, he'll be in the booth and Shumur will get input from him on play-calling, but the HC will be the one calling the plays. I'm jumping to conclusions a little with saying Pat will end up calling them, but that seems to be what's going to happen. I do believe Childress was a very good hire, and I hope this works out, as we all do.

2) Trent Richardson. Some believe because he's had knee/ankle problems he wont be given a heavy workload in the NFL. I'm guessing he'll get the ball at least 20 times a game. Trent probably intrigues me more than anyone on the offensive side, even more than Weeden. Will he be an "ordinary back", as Jim Brown said, or will he develop into an almost Barry Sanders type back? Time will tell. Highlights can be misleading, but he does have some escapability to go along with his powerful running stye. If he is the exceptional back we need, it will take a tremendous amount of pressure off our rookie QB, and help the passing game as teams start stacking the box to protect against the run. I'm excited about this player's potential, but that's all it is until he proves himself.

3) Weeden. Considering how QB's have disappointed Browns fans, I'm not going to buy into him being the answer too soon. I do like the fact he's got good size and a strong arm, but I want to see how well he reads defenses and how accurate he is when he's about to get hit. I like his confidence, but hope he doesn't prove to have a screw loose or is flaky. A couple of things make wonder but we'll see. Afterall he was a baseball player and they think a little differently.

4) Schwartz. Joe Thomas described him as a technician, but I thought he was supposed to be more of a mauling type of RT with decent feet in the passing game. I just hope he can keep our QB protected on the right side.

5) Guards. Could be interesting battles at both guard positions. Pinkston probably will be kept at LG, we'll see what happens at RG. The OG/OT(?) out of Colorado was an interesting selection. Just curious how this plays out. We HAVE to have better pass protection from both the RG and RT.

6) WR's. They are the mystery men, who either got lost in a Bermuda triangle type of alternate universe last season, or Colt was even worse than what some fans, including myself, suspected at the time. Along with poor pass protection of course. Holmgren keeps saying they like their guys at WR, so they need to produce this season big time. MoMass is either in the last year of his contract or has one year remaining. Regardless, he needs to have a very good year if he wants good money next year, or to build a better reputation for when his contract does expire.

7) Backup RB's. Brandon Jackson is in the last year of his contract so will have extra motivation after missing last season due to injury. And Hardesty will be in his second season back after his knee injury. I would not be shocked if we have a two headed monster of Richardson and Hardesty, with Jackson backing up. I'm not convinced Hardesty is a bust yet, but this year is extremely important for him.

8) TE's. This group, well, I'm not too sure what to make of them. Watson is the trusty veteran with limited jumping ability. Evan Moore showed flashes two years ago of being a very good threat as a kind of WR/TE hybrid. Last season he was on the sidelines alot for some reason. Was he running poor routes? I never did hear an explanation of what was going on with him. Jordan Cameron didn't contribute much, and now we have TE/FB hybrid in Smelley. Not sure if he'll play FB or TE.

On defense:

1) CB. Please, somebody beat out Sheldon Brown. It's hard for someone of his size to play CB in the NFL, as was proven by how far off he had to play WR's. Doubt we have a player on the team who'll beat him out, unless rookie Trevin Wade shocks the world and starts at CB. Usama Young, or the player they got from Philly last year (can't think of his name offhand, might be an option. And they like Hagg but he'll stay at safety it appears.

2) S. Will Ward still be a starter? Probably, but he isn't a good cover safety. Wont be surprised if Young and Hagg end up starting at the safety positions, with Ward contributing on probable run plays.

3) LB's. Just want to see how the rookies play this year. If both draft picks work out, it'll make a big difference, especially with Fujita being suspended the first three games. We need an infusion of young LB talent.

4) DT. Really interesting battle for the starting role next to Rubin, and for the backup positions. A couple of rookies thrown in the mix to make it interesting.

5) DE. Rucker and Parker playing opposite Sheard could possibly give us an excellent d-line.

Like the way things are headed, but so many variables at this point it's hard to tell how this team will play in 2012. I'm looking forward to this pre-season and season probably more than any other in a long time.

And now the rumors are the Browns really want to move McCoy, so he may be gone soon with little in return. Guess it's better if he's unhappy behind the scenes as Rizzo eluded to about a week ago, or if they like their other QB's better.

I'm curious about our apparent 3rd stringer. Always forget his name since we hardly see him or hear about him. It's hard to believe he'd be a better option than Colt as the 3rd stringer, but again, if Colt's that unhappy, I guess the best thing to do would be to trade him.

Still not 100% convinced Pat Shurmur is the man for the job, considering all the experienced coaches around him, but their experience might help him become a better HC than appeared he was last year. Maybe he just needs time to improve. I do like his demeanor as it seems he handles pressure decently, and the players see that and will be more likely not to blow things out of proportion as well.

I realize not everyone is buying into what Holmgren has done and the people he's brought into the organization, but I'm one that does. I fully expect a playoff appearance in 2013. And this season could end up being better than many expect. I'm not predicting it but wont be shocked if it happens.

Sounds like you are thinking about the same as Vegas. On the radio today they mentioned the over/under for wins this year is set at 4.5. I'd probably go out on a limb and take the over, as I can see them winning at least 5 or 6 games. The running game should be much better which I'm thinking will help in the win column.

Actually, I'd probably bet online but I doubt I'd get paid if I won. Believe it's still illegal. But we can have casinos dropping coins in one armed bandits. Humph...

Wonder why our front office plays games while negotiating contracts. There's a difference between hard negotiating and being impossible. If the word on the street is true, the hold up on Weeden's contract is whether the 4th year will be guaranteed, and he's set to make 8.1 million (approximately) over that four year stretch.

The bottomline is if Phil Taylor was able to hold out last year to have his 4th year guaranteed, you know a QB's 4th year will be guaranteed. They were drafted about the same place in the first round.

If he proves to be good enough to have as our starting QB through three years, he'll get paid anyway in the 4th year. And if something happens that he isn't our starter, he'll probably be another team's QB by that time.

It just doesn't make sense to me. A lot of people thought Hillis and his agent were being difficult during negotiations, but maybe it was more the Browns FO that was the problem. Weeden sounds frustrated, saying it takes two sides to come to an agreement.

I realize because of possible injuries most players wouldn't want to do this, but he'd almost be better off saying, "If you don't want to guarantee the 4th year, I'll just sign for three and then I'll be up for a new contract a year earlier". It'd be a gamble, because he'd have to remain the starter to get a great contract, but if he proves to be the answer at QB it'll pay off. Off course they could use the franchise tag at that time, but that would be a big pay day in itself.

Is there a petition for Mark Cuban to buy the Browns? I know he's been in the market for another franchise, he's worth 2.3 billion if you believe wikipedia, he grew up near Pittsburgh but I heard he was a Cleveland fan (don't know if that part is true).

Lerner has expressed interest in selling the team (I'm sure IAC is very glad) and I would be trilled if Cuban would throw his name in the ring.

btw, if there is no petition, we should start one. Let Cuban see all the support he would be getting from fans in a petition to have him bid for the team.

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Let's get some activity going in the Cleveland sub-forum!

Looks like the deal for Haslam to buy the team will be pretty much a done deal sometime this month, reportedly.

This is a deal I'm taking a wait and see approach to, but have to say I don't have a good feeling about it, because it could mean the end of the Mike Holmgren era, and possibly Heckert and the coaching staff. If that happens I'll be p***** off. We finally have a FO that knows what it's doing and works in a professional manner, and some quality coordinators and assistant coaches. Even though I'm not high on Shurmur, that situation would be straightened out eventually under Holmgren.

But now, who knows? With Haslam having controlling interest as owner, and Banner possibly becoming team president, it's possible they'll blow the whole thing up. Back to square one so they can say they did it their way with their people.

On the otherhand if they use commonsense, they'll leave things intact, with exception of possibly replacing Shurmur at season's end, depending on how the team does this season.

Would hate to see Holmgren leave if that's what happens. They have a good thing going in Berea, and he's the reason we were able to get guys like Heckert, Jauron, Childress, and Cromwell. And they've drafted well for the most part, so things are on the right track. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Browns win nine games or more this season, shocking the league. Might even see a playoff appearance.

Let's hope Haslam and Banner don't destroy what Holmgren and Company have built so far.

I don't think we have a snowball's chance in hell at 500, let alone being over it. Further, I'd be glad to see Holmgren's fat ******* ass shipped out of Cleveland, but then again it's unfortunate we have to start over.

I see this sale as a double-edged sword one way or another. Once the deal is done, he needs to address what's going to happen with the front office.

I can't believe that sack of **** Randy Lerner is selling this team during the first ******* week of training camp. Seriously man? Jesus Christ.

Stability in the front office would do WONDERS for this team. I've had this stance since I've been a member here and have been against the majority of the firings (especially the Mangini one but that whole front office fiasco with Kokinis and company was done wrong from the start. GM's hire coaches and Mangini was a hell of a coach. He was a **** GM). Thus it will be of no surprise that I would like to keep the majority of the front office and as much of the coaching staff on tact for as long as possible.

I don't mind Lerner as an owner regardless of the **** posters on this site (mainly IAC) but I would love, love, LOVE, to see Mark Cuban own this franchise.

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Let's get some activity going in the Cleveland sub-forum!

As a Browns fan I don't even know what stability means, really. I actually like Heckert but it pisses me off royally when Holmgren steps in and goes "let's do this and this" in the draft.

Actually, the thing that made me the most pissed off at Holmgren was when he said to Browns fans "you're either with us or against us" regarding the decision making.

I may have interpreted that the wrong way, but from what I took from it, where the **** do you get the ******* balls to ever question a Browns fan's loyalty after what that franchise has put its fans through?

That crazy scenario I suggested, in which the Browns end up with the #1 overall and find it hard to pass up an all world talent at QB suddenly doesn't look so crazy. Let's say Weeden has a not so impressive rookie year and the Browns' young guys don't all come through, while Thomas, Wilson, Bray or Barkley have huge collegiate seasons. Haslem is reportedly a football guy. He'll find guys to do the research and evaluate our evaluators. If he comes to really covet one of these top prospects as a bonafide franchise QB and doesn't feel as strong on Weeden, do we become the first squad to draft back to back 1st round QBs?

I'm not figuring more than 3 wins this year so I think #1 is a distinct possibility. Mia, Jac and a surprise team will probably be in the mix too. Obviously best case would be to trade it..(or Weeden). When's the last time you've seen a team heading into the season depending on as many unproven players as this year's squad? If it works, hats off and we're back in contention, but it's one of the bigger gambles I've ever seen. If it tanks it could be all their jobs.

BL, I think your scenario's far more likely than not, simply put. I've little to no faith in Weeden; as a matter of fact, the selection of him lead to disinterest in the upcoming season for me. But I'll see how it plays out and as a fan, I'd be more than happy to be completely wrong.

That crazy scenario I suggested, in which the Browns end up with the #1 overall and find it hard to pass up an all world talent at QB suddenly doesn't look so crazy. Let's say Weeden has a not so impressive rookie year and the Browns' young guys don't all come through, while Thomas, Wilson, Bray or Barkley have huge collegiate seasons. Haslem is reportedly a football guy. He'll find guys to do the research and evaluate our evaluators. If he comes to really covet one of these top prospects as a bonafide franchise QB and doesn't feel as strong on Weeden, do we become the first squad to draft back to back 1st round QBs?

I'm not figuring more than 3 wins this year so I think #1 is a distinct possibility. Mia, Jac and a surprise team will probably be in the mix too. Obviously best case would be to trade it..(or Weeden). When's the last time you've seen a team heading into the season depending on as many unproven players as this year's squad? If it works, hats off and we're back in contention, but it's one of the bigger gambles I've ever seen. If it tanks it could be all their jobs.

I would love for the Brown's to have the #1 overall pick but it is going to be a very tough call for Holmgren to abandon Weedon so quickly and admit he wasted a 1st round pick for practically nothing.
Weedon won't fetch much more than a 3rd or 4th rounder if the Brown's try to dump him, I think it will only come about if Holmgren is fired and the new owner brings in his own people and starts fresh.

Thank god!!! that we have a new owner, it is the best thing that has happened to the new Browns.