From what I understand:Aikido is a spiritual art that uses locks to restrain an attacker.

Aikijutsu is a combat art that uses locks to destroy an attackers limb.

My question is which of the two arts can be trained more alive?

My definition of alive is training with resisting opponent who is doing everthing in his power to escape from your lock and loose you grip. (Constantly resisting with all his might. As in wrestling or Judo.)

I would hypothesize, without ever having stepped inside an aikijujutsu dojo, that one ought to be able to train aikido more alive, because the takedowns are all accomplished without damage to the limbs or joints. But to reach this level of practice, both partners need to have a certain level of competency, where nage (the thrower) can be trusted to not destroy uke (the attackers) limbs or joints when things don't go quite as planned and uke can keep himself safe as the intensity level increases.

I have shared my thoughts on this already, but I feel the cruxt of the matter is intent. I have seen soft Aiki-Jujutsu and hard Aikido, but it has to do with how the people train in each art, and the intent they use. Capture and compliance or capture and destroy, once again its how you want to train, not so much the difference in the styles or arts.

Quote:I would hypothesize, without ever having stepped inside an aikijujutsu dojo, that one ought to be able to train aikido more alive, because the takedowns are all accomplished without damage to the limbs or joints. But to reach this level of practice, both partners need to have a certain level of competency, where nage (the thrower) can be trusted to not destroy uke (the attackers) limbs or joints when things don't go quite as planned and uke can keep himself safe as the intensity level increases.

Quote:I would be biased but I'd say Aikijutsu. It's moves are less circular, tighter and faster, and they practice more randori with resitance. But tomiki Aikido is an option too

From my understanding any Aikidoka with experience can move about with uke in really small circles due to skill and comprehension of body movements. About practising with resistance......some of my fellow aikidoka feel as if they should be practising judo, honestly though, it's enjoyable and one learns what movements work for the individual.

I'm basically saying the same thing Lou is....it all really depends on x and y. (those are variables ^_^)

Sorry guys, but technique is technique... how well you do it is what makes the difference. I do both jujitsu and aikido at a high level, and it's all about application not which book the technique came from.

I can do either jujitsu in a big room or aikido in a small room, because you have to adjust the technique to the situation in either case, so what you guys are arguing over is which flea owns the dog.

If you're training in aikijujitsu and like it... continue to practice. If you're doing aikido and like it, continue to practice. If you don't like anything, find something you like and practice that. It's not very hard to understand, but not necessarily easily understood if you're just starting out.

My teachers taught me things I didn't understand for 10 years, but suddenly came in to focus when I was training. If I'd stopped training and "done something else", I'd never have been privy to what I know.

If you want to know how to do a technique, ask a blue belt. If you want to know how a technique works, ask a brown belt. If you want to know how a technique is applied, ask a black belt. If you want to know what you're doing wrong, ask a white belt. They have all the answers.

If you are having that much trouble deciding what you want to study, you need to have a talk with your teacher and let them decide if you're worth wasting their time teaching. As a hachidan, nothing is more irritating than spending lots of time grooming someone for promotions and to help carry on an art, just to have them bail out and start doing "something else" that happens to be passing through town.

"Everybody can join the circus, but not everybody is an acrobat". If you want to be the acrobat, you have to practice.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Generally good advice to take heed... practice, more practice and keep sticking with it, even if it may not be obvious immediately.

Technique is appplication of principles, rooted in the fundamentals. Understand the principles, work on the fundamentals, practice the technique.

But I think SenseiLou (who is unfortunately no longer with us) hit the nail on the head. It is the intent (specifically martial intent - which may also mean different things to different people) with which you train that is the real difference. (Of course, the first part about practised technique applies as well).

Kokoro - the spirit in which you train is extremely important. On the mat, you could be simply "going thru the motions" slowly, but if your spiritual intent is present, who's to say that you're not practising in an "alive" manner. Simply because you're not out to hurt your partner in a training session?

SenseiLou was often fond of the phrase "how you train is how you fight". Of course, I don't think he meant "fight" as in "fight", since (traditional) martial arts are not meant for "fighting", but for "honest to God" self-defense. But since that means different things to different people, I'll leave that up to your interpretation.

BTW, this is SO, SO true...

Quote:

If you want to know how to do a technique, ask a blue belt. If you want to know how a technique works, ask a brown belt. If you want to know how a technique is applied, ask a black belt. If you want to know what you're doing wrong, ask a white belt. They have all the answers.