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Re: Nationalizing the Education System

I didn't say you said the feds don't operate schools in Michigan. You said that education in Michigan was 100% decentralized and under local control.

Here it is again:

I want to see facts that prove the federal government and their DOE has absolutely zero control over any school, in any form in Michigan.

100% of all schools in Michigan are operated by local school districts. The one exception would be where emergency fiancial managers have been put in by the state but even then the schools are still in local districts.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

Originally Posted by Shadow Serious

And yet when the parents want a better education for their children they run up against a roadblock of districting and an affective monopoly of government education.

Is that how it is in your state? Because in my state of Michigan parents have lots of choices including crossing district boundaries to other public schools and going to charter schools and having it paid for by the State.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

Originally Posted by Geoist

I have made no claim that the current system is a good one. I only believe that nationalizing it could make it worse. The problems we see right now are not due to decentralization of education but due to issues in wealth gap/poverty. Those issues need to be resolved in order to fix education.

The way to change education is to change it all over the nation by eliminating the factory assembly line model that we have used all over all 50 states for the last century or more.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

Originally Posted by Fisher

We have that issue too, but the tuition you have to pay to come into the city from the county districts or to go to the schools you want out of district in the county are pretty small compared to private school--I think I heard somewhere it is about $800 per year which isn't horrid though certainly unattainable for some. Within the city itself, you can move around schools but we are not some huge LA, New York type village.

Our local school district ended tuitioning recently. Although, here, it was those in the Urban schools seeking refuge in the Rural schools since, in at least two instances, the rural schools greatly out perform the urban ones. The problem came in that the tuition, though not particularly high, was not equal to school taxes in the district. If I have to pay $1500 a year in school taxes, then why should someone be allowed to go to the school for only $800 a year. Same school, cost to parents should be the same for every student attending. The problem was further exacerbated by performance and discipline problems by the students that were being tuitioned in.

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

The way to change education is to change it all over the nation by eliminating the factory assembly line model that we have used all over all 50 states for the last century or more.

No, the solution is to get rid of government involvement, because the government doesn't innovate. They don't experiment. They stick with whatever works. Alternatively, a private school system would mean companies giving new software and hardware to schools to test out their systems, or as incentive to get school systems to buy their product. School systems would have their own research to see what ways they could teach better with less money (competition). Businesses will do everything to teach every kid, because they want the business.

Also, there would be a LOT of non profit school systems, like there are medical facilities. Possibly religious institutions, etc.

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

Originally Posted by DVSentinel

Our local school district ended tuitioning recently. Although, here, it was those in the Urban schools seeking refuge in the Rural schools since, in at least two instances, the rural schools greatly out perform the urban ones. The problem came in that the tuition, though not particularly high, was not equal to school taxes in the district. If I have to pay $1500 a year in school taxes, then why should someone be allowed to go to the school for only $800 a year. Same school, cost to parents should be the same for every student attending. The problem was further exacerbated by performance and discipline problems by the students that were being tuitioned in.

IDK about your school system but ours gets lots of federal and state money and not all the property tax goes to the schools directly--it just goes into the general budget with all the rest. We do not have a separate school tax, though my parents own some property in another state where "school tax" is part of the breakdown on their property tax.

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

Originally Posted by phishfi

No, the solution is to get rid of government involvement, because the government doesn't innovate. They don't experiment. They stick with whatever works. Alternatively, a private school system would mean companies giving new software and hardware to schools to test out their systems, or as incentive to get school systems to buy their product. School systems would have their own research to see what ways they could teach better with less money (competition). Businesses will do everything to teach every kid, because they want the business.

Also, there would be a LOT of non profit school systems, like there are medical facilities. Possibly religious institutions, etc.

Private schools with the same factory assembly line system are still schools with the factory assembly line system. And that is the key problem.

__________________________________________________ _
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

The way to change education is to change it all over the nation by eliminating the factory assembly line model that we have used all over all 50 states for the last century or more.

The "assembly line model" has not been around that long. It didn't exist, at least not in the school I went to, at the time I was in school. "Special" education was separated from other school functions. We had skill training in various areas including an auto shop. Our selection of classes ranged from standard to college prep to advanced. At that time, you could also fail and have to repeat the year/classes over and for some rules violation, you could be expelled for the entire year.

It was in the 80's and later that lawsuits about emotional/psychological damage for "failing" a student was brought up. Teachers/systems were no longer allowed to "damage" students who didn't meet standards by saying the failed and making them repeat their failures.

It was after that time period that lawsuits about unequal education and unequal availability were pursued. Following such lawsuits and some Laws, the "special needs" students were to be allowed in normal classrooms, no matter how disruptive they become. Schools were, for a time, prevented from offering "unequal" education in the form of placing students in advanced and college prep tracks. Even today, locally at least, there is no official distinction between classes. However, all the brighter students seem to end up in Mrs. X's class while the more "normal" or "less bright" students all end up in Mr. Y's class, but on paper at least, they are the same class, just different teachers.

It was after that time period that the "right to education" was considered to be overriding of the need for discipline and total expulsion were declared "wrong" as a result of lawsuits. The nearby Urban schools, that have the greater need and can afford it, actually have what is basically law enforcement monitored "prison" areas for students that in the past would of just been kicked off the property and not allowed to return. The local school also still has corporal punishment with parental consent, the nearest urban ones do not, maybe this is why the local school is rated outstanding while most of the urban ones only rank as marginal to adequate.

Since these factors were not present in all schools in the 1970's and early 1980's, I don't see how you can claim that an "assembly line" approach was being used prior to that time period.

Re: Nationalizing the Education System

Originally Posted by haymarket

Private schools with the same factory assembly line system are still schools with the factory assembly line system. And that is the key problem.

Ah, but one school has an assembly line for highly motivated students and high standards and turns out college students that go on to advanced degrees. Another has an assembly line for students to will enter non-college based skilled careers. Etc, etc. The difference is that while they may have an "assembly line" approach, in your opinion, they are more limited to what product they produce instead of just a general use product.