G20 Statement from Occupy London

With the G20 starting today, Occupy London General Assembly has agreed on its proposal for a shared statement of the global occupy movement to the G20 counter-summit and worldwide occupations.This statement is a work in progress. It is therefore offered as a beginning of a dialogue. We want assemblies around the world to collaborate and develop a vision together.

Our global system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust, driven by profit in the interest of the few.

An economic system based on infinite growth, but which relies on finite resources, is leading humanity and the environment to destruction. As long as this system remains in place, people of the world continue to suffer from an increasingly unfair share of income and wealth.

We seek a global system that is democratic, just and sustainable. The world’s resources must not go to the military or corporate profit, but instead go towards caring for people’s needs: water, food, housing, education, health, community.

An international, global collaboration has started, and is working on a statement that will unite the occupy movements across the world in their struggle for an alternative that is focused on and originates from people and their environment.

‘Occupy London’ I would assume is a centre left group of mainly ‘first generation’ supporters which is fine but you will need to attract the ‘second generation’ Tory classes and curtain twitching brigade before Cameron, Osbourne and Hague listen.
After defending the country from attack, the first duty of government and leadership is surely ‘Social Democracy’, beginning with the redistribution of wealth from the top down to the middle and bottom.
The better off should pay more and the poor less but there has to be responseability from everyone.
Don’t believe the Murdoch press either! Why certain newspapers tell lies about the unemployed and poor being lazy, and good for nothing criminals and are allowed to get away with it, then there is something clearly wrong in this country.
One last thing. What a good example to other campaign groups to not have one supreme leader but instead allow everyone to have a voice. That will gain you respect and credability.

How can you attract a second generation when the movement actually takes a vote on whether or not to allow illegal drugs into the camp ? Sounds like “hippies gone ballistic” , man !! And “chill” ? If you say “chill” to anyone over the age of 26, you will immediately lose their vote. Let us take a genuine approach & bring in the 99 %. Socialist Worker & spliffed -up mungs without a genuine background of political activism will not cut it with the sixth form conservatives, let alone mature voters.

Roger – you’re not 99% but 100% correct on this matter – we need realistic, professional, sincere people making their mark here, no time wasters. we are trying to make a difference. wasting time debating drug use will alienate the campaign aand give opposite camp the weapons needed to make us look like a bunch of muppets.

Rimmonim,
If you are truly with the simple aspects of the movement, then please be careful not to alienate others because of their personal choices. This movement as I see it is not so much about bashing bankers but more about the ‘99%’ being treated with human respect.
Would you not agree ?

Roger,
So they put an issue to a vote, as ugly as the issue is to you, they did a very democratic thing did they not so need to applaud that much at least. Not saying here that I agree with drug taking I might add, just wanting to highlight the relevance,
As for you having a view about their way of life, I think its not for me or you to judge that, after all I think you are comfortable with the notion of 99%, we therefore must come in all shapes and sizes, should we not ?

Well, if this is canabis we’re talking about here, this is the stuff that is demonised by the same establishment that allows and takes a lot of revenue from alcohol, stuff that kills thousands of people every year & has hospitals & jail cells busy on weekends.
I don’t smoke the stuff, but we can’t have any moral objection to it if we enjoy a drink can we? Perhaps an objection to the fact that you can only get it from drug dealers from whom you are then exposed to more lethal drugs, but hey that’s a whole other debate.

My question is, don’t people want the freedom to choose? The freedom not to be told how to think?
I know 2 wrongs don’t make a right, but when you have one side delivering ‘democracy’ to other countries with cruise missiles whilst filling their pockets and those of thier friends from the pockets of the people and their children, denying those same people any say in matters, I struggle to see how they have the moral highground to denounce an entire movement because a few protesters are smoking a joint! Yet, for some crazy reason, that is exactly how it works…

yeah, looking good so far. To entirely save the planet and ensure a mass following and a mass change to the core of our system. Can I suggest the following “No more Tax to be paid by the people” Government to print money instead of charge tax, and the people live happily ever after, imagine the world wide following. Tax = slavery and there is no need for it ANYMORE

Deutschland is in the ascendency . Geeeks are an irrelevant factor. Once the deutshmark is restored then it will soar by 40% in value. Geeeks please leave the euro and allow the rest of Europe to live !!!

If, no when, Greece declines being put further into a debt they can never pay back
Then Italy then Portugal then Spain then Ireland etc etc etc.
Burst that bubble your in !
By the way, thats not an exact forecast of the order they decline being ‘bailed out’ / being made more indebted to the 1%, say I accept no responsibility if you have a flutter down your local bookmakers, and no I am not referring to Barclays, HSBC, Lloyds and other ‘reputable’ morally aware banks !
Phew !

Thank you to all of you in London for what you are doing. Let’s all hope that it will truly make a difference. I am nearly 80 so cannot join you, if I could I would! there must be many more of us who are behind your efforts. What about a list of people who agree with all you are doing? would that be useful? JanH.

Jan,
You have joined in, you are on this website internet thing joining in just like me, and many others in places around the world, who cant in practical terms ‘occupy’. Nevertheless, we matter and we are joining in.

I’m not behind your effort I disagree with them and think that you have been occupying for how many weeks? and you finally have a statement of your occupation. This demonstration is a joke. Take yourselves down to parliament and demonstrate. Right now you are demonstrating to the people that walk past St Paul’s….wow big statement and definitely bringing about a change in policy…not! Perhaps this should be directed to the people that make the decisions, allowed the banks to manipulate things in the first place. What a waste of time and those poor small business near St Paul’s, not in the 1% and working hard to support their families, well with your demonstration you are ruining their livelihoods… ….shame on you.

How’s this for constructive? You are a joke! You make this bizarre claim that you are the 99 percent. Reality? you’re probably less than 9 percent. You seem to want to impose your views on the majority. The majority are not impressed. You call them ‘stupid’, ‘asleep’, ‘idiots’. and you still carry one with this lie that you represent us! Go away and think about what you really are!!

Protesting at, lobbying of, sending petitions too, voting at elections for, writing to members of, writing to lords within and probably sending carrier pidgeons down the bleeding chimney of parliament have been tried.

OccupyLSX is protesting at BOTH the financial sector (through intended adjacent target the London Stcok Exchange) AND the everyday people walking past.

I personally think the latter is the most important, we need more of the public to awake and see they are being milked as mugs being forced to pay for the corporate/banking worlds crisis with their education/health/pensions/pay/standard of living.
(See Greece for the extreme example, at least Greek gov fight it while we do it voluntarily)

So, whereas I see your frustration, if more everyday people get on board, THEN with critical mass we can get the government to start listening and start representing and protecting the population and not corporates.

I asked specifically in one of the local businesses how the demo had affected trade, they said “busy, very busy, doesnt bother us whether its bankers or tourists or demonstrators, excuse me” and turned back to the queue.

There was a statement on day 2.
This is a starting point for a hopefully global consensus statement from the many occupations. (over 80 countries worldwide now)

I agree, many work hard to support their families, what do they get for it, pay freezes, pay cuts, redundancy (or threat of), services cut, inflation high, ridiculous house prices etc etc while banks creamed it in, screwed up and now those same families are paying for it while FTSE100 CEOs take 55% pay rises this year.

I think maybe you’d agree, it’s the public that need awakening, parliament know, but we need numbers, we need the 99% to join in, the church may, just may help with that now. (although I’m cautious they dont become a front for some dialogue and a pacifying token tax change for business/banks)

What small businesses? Have you been down there lately Sally? I think you’ll find that it’s corporate heaven. Funny how on the one hand the protesters are accused by Tory MPs for not being faithful to their beliefs and creating the biggest queue in history at Starbucks. On the other hand they are driving away business. Make up your mind!!

Could I suggest that point 2 be amended to:
The current private central banking system is leading humanity and the environment to destruction. As long as this system remains in place, people of the world continue to suffer from an increasingly unfair share of income and wealth.

The media (hopefully) will print the final version of this statement so lets put a name to the system and thus allow those so inclined to research more details for themselves. A lot of people are totally unaware of how the system really works and a lot are just starting to realise. This way they can put ‘private central banking system’ into google and start to educate themselves rather than chasing a more conceptual phraseology.

Just wanted to say I think pretty much everyone agrees that the system can’t go on as it is. There are many reasons why, pursuit of growth in the face of constrained resources is one of them, but there are certainly others. So it has to stop, but I think there is less consensus on what he reasons for its destructive drive are. There are definitely parts of the movement who would say it’s due to the structure of the financial system (private central banking systems, money-as-debt type arguments, etc). Some say it’s nature of powerful profit hungry corporations. For some the root problem is a failure of democracy. Some argue it’s a characteristic of the ruling classes trying to suppress the working classes. Personally, I think there is elements of truth in all of these and we should avoid singular, causal attributions as what is causing the problem.

First things first, you really must understand that you do NOT represent 99 percent of the population, and to claim that you do is arrogance.

Having said that, I doubt that very many people think that the present ‘global system’ is perfect, but is a system, and it is up and running, imperfections and all! To want to bring the present system to an end, you must have a viable replacement system, and there has to be a smooth transition between the 2 systems. So, I suggest that you direct your energies, for now, to coming up with a detailed spec for an alternative system that will work, and be globally acceptable, and stop being a nuisance.

If you’re serious, and you do come up with a viable system, you will find that you have far more support than at present. On the other hand, should you simply continue trying to dismantle the current system, and succeed (most improbable), the resultant chaos would be unimaginable!

My views are that it has to raise enough awareness first to get enough of the 99% of people agreeing to want to change things.
Only then can the more ‘brainy’ amongst us work out the detail needed to enable these changes as you quite rightly put it, to be enacted the transition in a smooth manner.

To be honest, that does not sit too easily with me. Reason being, that the 99 percent you claim to represent, all have differing views about what is best for them. You’re actually using them! As for wanting to change things, no sane person would agree to change, without knowing what that change entailed, or how it affected them personally. There’s your challenge!

“As for wanting to change things, no sane person would agree to change, without knowing what that change entailed, or how it affected them personally”.
wrong jock strap the majority of the 99% don’t know what they have now and are totally unaware the system isn’t working for them as they are comfortable enough not to care, but willing to moan when the NHS isn’t there or decent schooling. are you telling me that the system in place is working and when 1 million people get on the street to stop the Iraq war the democratic government (apparent) that wasn’t voted in doesn’t listen and procedes to murder 1 million Iraq’s. i think your views are based on the flawed system which the occupation movement wants to change not replace. we are talking about getting rid of corruption and the infiltration of corporation to the government. its not rocket science, just fair. all humans with out the mind f**k of capitalist shopping and tv watching basically want food clothes and shelter and they don’t want to be paying through the nose for it. if we are prepared to kill abroad that means the system is not working here, with or with out LSX.

Human of Plant earth-. USING CAPITALS DOES NOT GET YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS ANY CLEARER.

I agree with jockstrap. You keep saying the 99% in all your statements well I definitely don’t fall in the rich 1%, hard working middle class person that I am. However you keep stating you stand up or represent the 99%, so clearly you have thrown me in to that ratio as well. If you insist on saying the 99% then lets reply to this by saying that ones that you think stick their heads in the sand and ignore things until it effect them etc. have you considered that THEY JUST DON’T AGREE WITH YOU & THAT OCCUPYING WILL RESOLVE THE ISSUE. Maybe it’s not that they ignore the issues, just simply that they..no I don’t agree with how you are doing things..
Did the use of capitals make you see my opinion clearer… nope I thought not.

Sally, you’re spot on! Sadly, I fear that these people only want to hear what they want to hear. The idea that anyone should dare challenge their beliefs, their reasoning, seems to really upset them! That’s why they’re doomed to fail.

Sally,
The use of capitals did make things clearer yes.
However and sadly did not work with your fellow non-believer Jockstrap,

He still didn’t get the point that no-one is trying to REPRESENT him, or you for that matter.
Let me put it another way……..Are you 2 financially amongst the top 1% can I ask ?

Now forgive me for guessing at this, but I guess you are not.
Therefore you as I and millions of others are in fact amongst the 99%
I / we merely state state that we are, in fact, of the 99%. You might not like being 1 of the 99% but you are, sorry, and perhaps with aspirations of getting into the 1% maybe ?

It does not “fly”, since 99% of the 99% see us as “kiddie campers”. There is no real support outside the camp since the camp has become a fairground. Please SWP stop your influence let the people speak. Bankers are laughing while you play !!!!!!

too easy to criticize at this stage. go back to your life. give it six months (I’m convinced its not going away). let them carry on and see see what the state of affairs is. if more people get involved the whole package, in terms of the occupy movement, will evolve. we might find that we all have more in common with each other than against each other.

To me, the 99% represents the distribution of wealth under global capitalism. I don’t know all the latest figures, but I do know that the vast majority of global wealth is held by a tiny percentage of the population, the 1%.
I went to visit the camp last Saturday afternoon and was very impressed by the speakers. Ministers of many faiths and religions and serious political figures spoke highly of the campaign. The Bishop of London is a convert to the occupation, this is clear if you read his words rather than the reports. I think that the occupation has, completely accidentally, made the Church of England take a hard look at itself, and it has come down on the side of the protest.
The protest is really about fairness, democracy and dialogue, nothing more. That is why it is growing so fast, because it’s hard for many people to disagree with, and a lot of us are angry with the system that we live in. The movement does not pretend to have all the answers, that is the point. The movement wants to find a way of creating a better system through dialogue and democracy. Even though many do not realise it, the system we live in is unfair, inhuman and corrupt. It also, coincidentally or not, goes against the teachings of the bible.

Many thanks for this AGAIN, and may I suggest that you come to visit the two camps one day soon….so you MIGHT get an idea of WHAT REAL DEMOCRACY IS and HOW IT WORKS, as you sound just likeANOTHER media-saturated-numb-consumer!

I’m not sure they claim to represent the 99%, merely are fighting for the 99%. Their actions might slowly awaken many of the 99% to the actions of the 1% and show that their is a better way forward.

The movement is working towards ideas. It is a forum for all, yourself included, get down there and contribute. I can vouch for there being some quite intellectual workshops and lectures, discussions and events going on. A range of ages, a range of professions too.

They are not, well I certainly am not and many I met are not, against capitalism, just think it needs adjustment, re-engineering a little so we get back to democracy and not corporatocracy.

You suggest they wish to dismantle the current system, NO, maybe roll it back a little, after all many there, myself included utilised the products of the system, education, NHS etc etc.

Please, don’t attack from a distance, come and join in, add your views, influence it in the direction you would like to see.

Do you refer to the “kiddie campers” and SWP or the 99% who are trying to get on with their lives and just want this whole SWP thing to go away ? Bit like the Greenham Common women really. Do you recall all that nonsense ? And where did it get us ?

Jock, there are alternative systems on the table… but in my opinion they should not be publicly mentioned yet because the media (mainly Fox & co) will twist it to make it sound like Communism or Socialism when in fact they are nothing like that.

First we need more people to be aware of how wrong the current system really is, the more people join the camps the more they can learn about alternative ways of running society, if there is someone there to represent those ideas off course.

I do give you a point though, the transition would be the hardest part but is not impossible, society can and will invent solutions to these problems as they arise… we have adapted to this crap system fairly well after all… few million suicides/murders/wars aside that is… so unless the new system is about nuking everything it could hardly be worse.

And before you say: “go live in a 3rd world country” done that, got the T-shirt, governments here are just more professional at oppression than the Gadaffi’s and Hussein’s… in here they twist things so the population cheer and celebrate the bad things their governments do.

People call them sheeple… I think that’s an insult to the sheep, sheep eat grass not shit. 😉

Erik, thanks for your reply. I understand your reluctance to reveal details of the alternative systems, but at some point, you will have to. There are millions of people like me, that have planned their lives according to the current system. That means pension funds and investments, which on the whole, are, for obvious reasons, in major and profitable businesses. These are the ‘corporations’ that your group seem to be targeting. Bring them down, and you really do destroy millions of lives!

As an add-on: The notion of a separation of money for the real economy and speculative money is nothing new at all. In terms of legal organisation it was in place with the Glass–Steagall Act: The separation between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits.

I don’t think the idea is to ‘bring down’ corporations. Many people just don’t think it fair that the heads of some of these corporations earn hundreds of times what their lowest paid employees do and then pay less tax than their cleaners and have quite possibly been involved in lobbying politicians to keep it that way.

Well said. The “kiddie campers” /SWP alliance never mentions investments, pensions , mortgages or school fees ! They have nothing to lose, unlike most of the 99% they claim to represent. Guess they were all born around 1980. In 20 years they will be part of the system they now seek to destroy!
Remember the footage of German politician “Joschka Fischer” kicking a policeman in the head back in the 1970’s. Then when he grew up he became foreign minister !!!!

Good that you mention Joschka Fischer he is one of the founders of “Die Grunen” (the Green Party), he and the party did make many changes to the German society.
So therefor these “kiddies”, as you call them, can make real changes so you can keep your pension.

What’s wrong with communism? As an ideology, it has not been refuted- unless you think that any of the previous regimes which have claimed to follow it were actually based on Marx’s work.
Any even if you do want to lump Stalinism in with Marxism, it has still destroyed less lives than capitalism.

Guess what ? I had to deal with that nonsense created by Red Brigades & Baader Meinhof. Idealistic claptrap ! Cost a lot of lives, money, property & came down to nothing more than a bunch of kids dicking around for their own fun! Do you want to precipitate the same situation again ? How many more must die while the “kids ” have a bit of fun ?

Rote Armee Fracktion were no kids, Ulriki Meinhof was 36 years old when they founded it the youngest Andreas Baader was 27 years old. They were terrorists not protesters. No matter what political colour terrorist have they certainly not going to sit in a tent in front of a Cathedral.

So what kind of economic system is Occupy London proposing? I haven’t seen any hard and clear details that stack up economically. The current economic systems may have problems of unsustainability, but we have to do something more complex than subsistence systems where you only eat and clothe yourself with what you produce yourself – that won’t work with 7 billion people on the planet.

Centrally organised/managed/directed economies have consistently failed to work over time.

The only ones that have worked more or less effectively over multiple generations/centuries have been economic mechanisms where value is given for work that is done, skills that are used and goods that are produced and exchanged. That should be very democratic because every economically active person is involved in it. That there is a profit element in it does not make it undemocratic.

What is economically undemocratic is where people expect to be supported by an economic system when they don’t contribute to it productively. What is equally problematic and undemocratic is where the economic power is so skewed that the most of the benefits accrue on one side of the deal, and the costs on the other side. An old Chinese proverb says: “A deal is only a good deal if everyone benefits from it”. Excessive corporate profits, casino corporate and government debt, environmental degradation don’t fit into that picture, but then neither does a benefits culture where people expect to get something for nothing, with someone else picking up the tab.

A short answer is there is a recently formed economics working group at Occupy London which I believe is looking at economic proposals. They’re meeting this afternoon (Friday) at 5pm at the info tent to which anyone is welcome to come along to. No statement from this group has been put before the general assembly yet, but I think it’s fair to say various pre-existing proposals like a Tobin tax, democratisation of the City of London and the elimination of tax havens are all widely supported.

To give a more detailed answer, what unites the Occupy movement is a belief that the current system of government and economics is not working. It follows a participatory, consensus based process which uses working groups and open assembles with the goal of creating real, functioning democracy. Everyone has been busy creating a space where this can happen, so I think it is premature to expect detailed economic proposals after just two weeks. These need to come out of the process rather than being some pre-existing set of demands.

The mainstream media struggles to accurately depict the Occupy , in part because it’s not an ordinary protest movement and they don’t understand it’s about forming something new rather than just being a media spectacle, and in part because of it’s scale (over 900 cities worldwide!) and diversity. Characterising the entire movement as “anti-capitalist” I think is a huge oversimplification.

In my experience of Occupy LSX viewpoints range from the likes of “capitalism as we know it will imminently destroy the remains of social fabric and/or the planet”, through something like “we need a better more democratic, compassionate capitalism” to more specific positions about particular struggles. Through the working process we attempt to understand each other and move to a consensus about what needs to be done.

Conventional politics tries to tells us this can’t work, that tough choice have to made, it’s all too complicated for us to understand, the only system that works is voting for a compromise candidate every couple of years etc. This is all designed to perpetuate the current system. The achievements of the 15m movement in Spain, which is now supported by 73% of the population, and the high support for the Occupy Wall St statement are examples of what a participatory alternative process can achieve.

But to turn specifically to economics, yes our economies are extremely complex.
This complexity contributes to their instability and some (e.g., Ha-Joon Chang)
argue that the only way in which they can be made understandable, regulatable and thus stable is for them to be vastly simplified – only certain kinds of financial transactions permissible etc. I say this to establish that reducing the complexity of our economies is actually a good thing, and this certainly doesn’t mean subsistence living (the irony is the thing that will propel is back to subsistence living is carrying on destroying the planet in the way out current economy is!). There are also lots of arguments that the levels of suffering, poverty, stress, mental health issues mean that it must change.

The claim that “centrally organised/managed/directed economies have consistently failed to work over time” I strongly disagree with. The war time economies of the US, UK and Germany were all essentially centrally planned and produced massive increases in industrial output. During the 60s and 70s in the US and UK markets were tightly regulated and experienced record growth rates and relatively high stability (compared to the perpetual bubbles and crises of the past 30 years). The internal economies at the heart of the world’s mega corporations are all essentially planned economies, and many of them are actually doing fine (witness the record banking profits) while the market economy between them is in chaos (as in the catch phrase socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor). I’m lead to believe the mixed economies of Yugoslavia did fine until the union politically fell apart after the death of Tito. Lots of other examples too, the Scandinavian countries showing the wheels not falling off if you don’t slavishly worship at the temple of finance capital, Iceland the consequences of what happens if you do, etc.

I’m not sure I exactly understand the the “value is given for work that is done”bit. Are you saying that the only systems which work are ones where the market prices goods and services and where there is a profit motive?

Re benefits culture, the goal is is ultimately to achieve less inequality in the society. As The Spirit Level book demonstrates, this has huge benefits for all. Some counties achieve this by having lower disparity in wages (e.g., Japan), some by higher taxes and redistribution (e.g., Scandinavia). Both can work. There are open questions about working hours, how to obtain full employment in highly industrial societies, whether we should instead be trying to create steady state economies, what the environmental implications of all this is and so on. In standrad poltical discourse this all gets dismissed as there being no alternative. Clearly this not true, and Occupy LSX has opened up a space where there is now a fantastic amount of debate, talks, discussions and film screenings about all of this. I encourage everyone of all viewpoints to come down and get involved.

Dear Occupy London
Thank you for starting Britain’s contribution to the on-going global debate about finance, banking, economics and unsustainable growth. I applaud you and wish I had the courage to come and join you. I note another camp has started in Bristol. Let us hope that these peaceful means of getting the message out catch on in other locations across our islands.
I am a member of the Church of England and am comforted that they are collaborating with you as I believe very strongly that these issues are at the heart of all and any religious or humanist movements.
I have just read that our Prime Minister has stated, in response to the comments of the Archbishop of Canterbury, that he believes that share holders need a greater say in corporate decision making. This sums up for me how desperately out of touch he is with ordinary people, most of whom are not shareholders. He has completely missed the point. Clearly the need for the dialogue you have started is vital when those with the privilege of representing the people of Britain are clearly still not listening yet.

Wishing continued support for your democratic campaigh. Good idea, not having one spokesperson but everyone having an equal voice. We need a new kind of politics, a new kind of law, a new kind of economics, a new kind of policy towards Europe and Asia and the U.S., and most important of all, a new kind of social policy towards the old, young, poor and disadvantaged across this country.

Greedy Capitalists (I agree with Capitalism – just not Greed) created credit lines in order to create and extend rent-seeking opportunities. Once where no credit capitalism flourished, businesses were not artificially over-valued, neither were houses, cars, retail goods or white goods. Now with over-inflated credit over the past 20 years, so over-inflated wealth has followed for the 1%. Meanwhile the 99% have gone from owning their homes to paying mortgages (renting) all their lives. From owning cars to hire purchase (renting) of them, and when they’re sold the whole package is re-bundled. From owning their clothes, to renting them on store cards. The 1% are terrified that the 99% will stop purchasing on credit, and start purchasing with cash, thereby de-valuing their rent seeking capability, and increasing our own value. Along side de-valuing rent-seeking, the devalued businesses own shares will plunge and the stockmarket will then plunge to realistic levels instead of levels based upon a false economy. Thereby making the 1% a part of the 100%.

This is good news, cannot wait for all the global movements unite and start singing from the same sheet (so to speak).

Off topic but interesting none the less (might wana bin FB & TWITTER):

Subject: ABC Action News: Homeland Security eyeing social networks

Homeland Security eyeing social networks

The wave of uprisings across North Africa and the Middle East that have overturned three governments in the past year have prompted the U.S. government to begin developing guidelines for culling intelligence from social media networks, a top Homeland Security official said Monday.

all seems a pretty good place to start. Thank you. A few thoughts on the language used:

“people of the world continue to suffer from an increasingly unfair share of income and wealth.” Surely just “people continue to suffer”. Unless you are contrasting us with people not from the world.

“The world’s resources must not go to the military or corporate profit, but instead go towards caring for people’s needs: water, food, housing, education, health, community.”

I’d suggest that assuming the world’s resources must ‘go’ to anything implies that they are going to ‘go’. i don’t want the Amazon to “go” to feed the poor, provide community for the needy. I’d prefer this phrased to acknowledge that we need to see the world as more than just ‘resources’, and that we need to reorient our relationship with the natural world to take this into account.

“An international, global collaboration has started”

if we are global, I’d have thought that implied we are international by default. “A global collaboration has started”.

It would be useful to acknowledge the fact that capitalism has got us where we are today.

We do have welfare in many countries, we do have health systems in place, education, democratic systems (albeit severely weakened)

Therefore I propose we acknowledge the value of capitalism and in particular Adam Smiths analogy of the invisible hand as a good model for distributing resources. So as to demonstrate that the occupy movement is made up of an even spread and not mere anticapitalist socialists as the mainstream media has portrayed the movement (BBC, to name but one)

We should be clear this is not a left or right partisan position but a genuine concern for the direction of world economic and democratic systems. The world is getting smaller, which is part of the reason investement bankers can make withdrawals as often as they do!

I like the part about finite resources and the seeking of continuous growth, thats great. Furthermore a line or two about valuing natural and social capitals that is balanced with finance. For too long growth has been measured in GDP alone. A more balanced metric would be something like gross well being, as has been proposed in various quarters. In turn this one step would mean that governments and business would be seeking to make a social impact to add to their bottom line in order to “win” contracts or secure funding going forward. In a similar vein the full cost accounting would take in to account the environmental impacts of business activities, therefore accounting for ecological services is also required. for example the work of the bees and trees. A swarm of bees pollinates x plants = food. A single tree filters x amount of air and process the carbon dioxide. This is all fine detail stuff. However I think it would be useful to acknowledge some ideas as solutions and ask the powers that be to consider these and others. Thus demonstrate that ideas do exist and we are not all doom mongers. The new world order, whatever it’s guise is going to have to be very innovative and we all need to appreciate that .

Thats enough from me tonight, I could have gone on about full reserve banking models and lots of other things but this will give you some food for thought.

Above all make sure that the process is transparent and democratic. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

Just seen your mention of the BBC.
I did complain to them, perhaps others too, about their labeling of campaigners/protesters as ‘anti-capitalist’ during their news programmes.
I beleive they have now stopped doing this on the whole from what I can see.
So well done BBC ( and well done me….and others ).
A change asked for, A change made !
Whatever next !!!!

I’m joining in like Jan and Michael- simples innit ; ) If you care for others, your children, the planet (and even perhaps yourself) just say so.

For all those whose argument against the protest is base upon “if not this then what…” – You don’t need to be a aerodynamics expert to know the plane’s crashing. Personally, I couldn’t possibly suggest an alternative world political system, but I’m sure as hell that this one is broken. What I can do however, is suggest to people with bigger brains than I, that a system that is based on sustainability, equality, peace and sharing is a pretty damned good starting point! Speak up world!

STANDBY, STANDBY, normal service will be resumed shortly. It always is & I have been around since the great depression. Believe me, this is Disney World in comparison. You have state benefits which were never available back then and you know that you will not starve to death under some underpass because you cannot find work. When was the last time that you saw people in the street without shoes ????

As a 50 something mainstream middle of the road voter , I am really impressed with what the Occupy movement has achieved. The apathetic, unengaged and generally complacent public-like me , just moan and grumble , whilst you are making the G20 tremble.
Read Paul Mason’s blog on BBC News site – “OWS the No1 Global Brand.

If you must stay, can we have a deadline for when you’re going to resolve all your problems please?

I think people should really focus on getting this sorted rather than drinking, juggling, playing guitar, playing piano, playing bagpipes, playing bongos (how can you think with all that noise?) painting pretty pictures, creating workgroups, creating workgroups to look after other workgroups, chatting to the press (still whinging about the 1%), getting on camera, kicking footballs about, eating free dinner, drinking from Starbucks, dropping fag butts, hanging out dirty laundry (literally), complaining about the Cathedral, proclaiming love for the Cathedral, blocking the Poppy van (you really should go round the South of Cathedral and buy one), hiding behind masks, making unhelpful and inaudible comments from the back of a group (whilst hiding behind a mask) and generally lazing about in the sunshine.

I was a student and understand a bit of procrastination just happens, but if you must impose on the Cathedral, perhaps try and speed things up a bit and limit the pain. I would suggest that you elect democratically some leadership to narrow the focus a little bit. Democracy doesn’t preclude leadership by the way, and you’ll never achieve anything if you don’t have some.

By the way, if asked, “what change is required to end this protest?” try and do better than one answer received today which was “abolish money” (I’m assuming you all realise that abolishing money would give power to the holders of the factors of production and thus ultimately those that hold the land, whereby we return to a feudal system. This doesn’t seem like a sensible way forward, so I expect something better next time.)

We cannot possibly have pure capitalism because as we all know, that would mean no social welfare. But then we cannot possibly have the current system with a mixed economy, because that’s what people are whinging about. We cannot have communism because it would never work because people don’t want the crap TVs (etc.) that would come with communism because of the inherent x-inefficiency that comes with planning. We cannot have pure socialism because people are inherently selfish and believe if they work hard they shouldn’t share with the lazybones (see para 2 for examples). We cannot have national socialism, and that doesn’t need explaining.

So, what to do? Well I suggest, get off those bongos and get your thinking caps on. Otherwise perhaps consider the futility of this leaderless, aimless, solutionless exercise, and go down the pub or something. I think the football’s on.

PS in response, provide solutions only please, abuse is just another form of avoiding your duties in sorting this all out. If anything I’m en

I agree with “bored of waiting entirely”. I have been waiting since the 1930’s & if anything the current system is a marked improvement. As I mentioned in an earlier post you don’t starve to death these days just cos you cannot get work & you certainly don’t go without shoes.
I think those protesting are basing their ideas on the concepts of “utopia”. In reality society lurches from crisis to crisis throughout the ages. The current system is better than that which went before. Consider the “credit crunch” as a hiccup! Believe me WWII was worse !!!

“As for wanting to change things, no sane person would agree to change, without knowing what that change entailed”.

And how many sane people are amongst the 99% jockstrap? Let me just give you a definition of ‘insanity’

“In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction”

Maybe you yourself are insane jockstrap. It is up the very few people within the 99% who are not insane to lead the way for the others who have just been brainwashed by the mind numbing garbage that is forced down us night and day.

I would say that the vast majority of the 99% are insane. You say yourself that you have adjusted your life in order to fit around a capitalist society, does this not prove that you are part of the (insane) 99%? It is the 1% that govern the capitalist society that you and I have to live in…we have no choice. I pity you if you are comfortable in accepting the way we are controlled, though being insane you wouldnt even have noticed.

You make a valid point about the smooth transition of any two possible systems but conflict, in my opinion, cannot be avoided as the people in charge now MUST (knew you’d like that) be ousted if we are ever going to experience a better, fairer way of living. My point is that the people at the top of the pyramid will not go quietly and we can expect some tough times ahead if we want to come through the other side as victors….but, i believe eventually we will come through the other side and our children and grand children will reap the benefits just as my generation did from my grand parents who fought two world wars for a cause which fundamentally is exactly the same as the one being fought by the few sane people in the 99%.

Gosh some of the comments on here are just painful to read. i’m not in London, but having taken the time to learn about LSX, even I can see that you guys have organised yourselves really well so that the media tent work without distraction, and that people of all demographics have joined the camp. Derogotory names and minimising of LSX efforts only work to show how scared you are, but rather than try to learn more from freely available non-mainstream media, you focus your efforts on ego-centric babble. Why on earth should LSX be ashamed? They have handled themselves brilliantly, and continue to do so. Despite being in the west, Mohandas Gandhi would be rather pleased, I reckon 🙂 Well done, LSX.

Occupy London,
when I joined the beginning of your demonstrations I was utterly agitated about the lack of common vision. Now after weeks you come up with some poor bullet points that are as generic as telling people that the earth is a planet. Please read up about macro/micro economics and all the interdependencies that prevail. Try to understand how our system works. You cannot just live in your dream world and believe things are gonna change just cause you put up a tent in front of a church. If you want to make a change, the first thing is to holistically understand the current situation. Only if you’ve done that you can reliably create concepts for the better. I’m sorry, but simply telling people that the rich are too rich and the poor are too poor because of our system is just blabbering.

If you want to make a change, the first thing is to holistically understand the current situation.

Tom – probably the most sensible thing that’s been posted here. Unfortunately that means that it’ll probably be ignored. It is clear that if the ramblings on here are anything to go by then no one actually has a clue about the current situation be it about banks, salaries, taxes or whatever. I’ll throw a few truths out there and see the reactions I get:

1. Tax avoidance is legal. Sorry guys, moral or fair share doesn’t come into it. If a person and particularly a company can legally pay less tax then they would be daft not to, as well as other reasons that I’ll come to later. Tax avoidance comes about though loopholes, deliberate or otherwise, in tax law. If you don’t like it then protest to the government to close them! The companies and people using them are the wrong target. You are in effect calling for higher taxes though. Of course if you know a company or person evading tax, then it is your duty to report them to HMRC.

2. We haven’t given the banks money for nothing. We’ve got equity stakes in LBG, RBS, NR, and B&B. That means in return for recapitalising, we (the nation) are now shareholders in varying degrees, from 40% of LBG to 100% of NR. For large fees (read billions) we gave the banks loan guarantees (not money) that fortunately haven’t been called on and our exposure to these is reducing. It is therefore in our interests that the banks are successful so we can divest of our shares to at least break even and perhaps profit from our equity stake. Not to mention the billions in corporation tax they pay…

3. RAR! Barclays only paid 2% corporation tax on their profits – greedy banksters! AARRRGH! Yeah, so people are angry about that. Not so simple though – any individual or company can offset losses from previous years against tax which is exactly what Barclays did. Added to that, the figure relates to UK corporation tax and given that Barclays is a multinational and 60% of it’s revenue comes from outside of the UK, and would have paid corporation tax in the country earned, it’s a fucking miracle that there was any profit to pay tax on at all.

4. “Bankers don’t pay taxes.” Yes they do, however you are defining banker. If someone is employed by a company then salary, cash bonus etc. legally has to go through PAYE. There’s few, if any ways around this which haven’t been clamped down on. That’s a good thing because the richest employees (and that includes bank CEOs) will be paying tax at 50%. Add in employees and employers NI and there’s a point at around £950k where HMRC earns more from their cut than the banker takes home. Why would you want to restrict salaries given the amount of taxes paid? And unless you are a shareholder then executive pay isn’t really your business.

5. “Corporations making huge profits is bad.” Not really. Who do you think owns these corporations? Contrary to popular belief, it isn’t a bunch of fat execs in top hats lighting cigars with £50 notes; it’s pension funds. I’d like my meager pension fund to grow so that I can have a decent retirement and not have to depend on handouts from the state. Not much to ask really but I need the companies I invest in to grow and pay dividends to make that happen.

Jim,
good arguments. A lot of things are perfectly legal and if people here are complaining about people avoiding/mitigating taxes then it’s a matter of current legislations. If I can invest in an offshore fund legally to save some tax money, I’d do that. Note: offshore does not mean that you pay no taxes at all. If I run an ISA account and take my tax free allowances, I will do that. If there is a way to plan for IHT purposes, I’m gonna do that. If someone’s worried about the corporate world ‘betraying’ the people, I have to tell them: don’t blame them for complying with the rules. It’s not just a corporate thing, it’s a personal thing, too. All I’m saying is that Occupy London should focus on the causes of problems, not the symptoms. That’s General Medicine 101.

the banks are like ARE LIKE LOAN SHARKS….i am owed money from them (i have`nt seen this money for months now)
will i get interest or a late payment fee on the money im due whenever it
arrives?!not on your nelly!
i think everybody would like a decent future pension for retirement but the fact is alot of people are struggling just to exsist at the moment.my experience is money
does`nt give you happiness.we need empathy with each other.nobody knows what the future holds.

I came to your meeting last night to see exactly how ‘direct democracy’ works. I saw you take about an hour to agree that you would have a meeting to discuss having a meeting with the City of London Corporation. At one point someone had to speak to remind everyone that you should all be united against a common enemy because it was taking you so long to decide anything. God forbid you have to make an important decision in a timely manner one day. The world uses hierarchical systems for a reason.

You’ve had hundreds (as you claim) of people occupying that space for over two weeks running meetings and working groups and not having the distractions of a daily commute etc. Yet you’ve come up with nothing of interest beyond “we hate the banks and the corporations and we want change” Perhaps you’ll begin to realise that ‘the system’ is not all just a great conspiracy to keep you down but its the result of generations and generations of hard work that has delivered a society with security, free healthcare, a minimum wage, welfare, liberal policing (oh yes), human rights and a democratic system that allows you to hold politicians accountable and vote them out and allows anyone with enough support to be voted into office.

Yes, there are huge problems with the system but you are being arrogant and naive to think that your ideas will suddenly make things better. For example, a poster at your site issues a ‘demand’ to immediately introduce a 80% top tax rate. Whilst I would love to tax the rich this sort of rate the evidence suggests that the current 50% is actually costing us money because people are basing themselves in other countries. This is reality, I’m afraid. You may not like this (and nor do I by the way) but sitting around, complaining, disrupting other people and endlessly preaching is not going to solve the problem and is not going to get you support.

You have hit the nail on the head with those observations. It does now seem that the main objective of “Occupy” is to “continue occupying”. I really do not expect any genuine result to come from the camp at St. Paul’s. More public money will be spent to facilitate this camp. The 99% will be the ones paying of course.

If there is anyone in the camp who can see the damage being done to the “Occupy brand”, then please convince a large enough following to vote the camp out of existence. At least you will gain some political capital by doing so.

>>undemocratic and unjust, driven by profit in the interest of the few.

You are describing the Church of England.
– They make hundreds of millions in profits.
– They avoid paying taxes
– The average employment cost of a ‘Church Commisioners’ employee is over 50,000
– They pay a top salary of 300,000, with three others over 100,000.
– They create jobs abroad when they could create jobs for their congregation
– They promote shopping at Christmas instead of Jesus
– They push up rents
– They push up cost of food
– They worship money, not God.
– They are the 1%.

Just wanted to say i totally get what you are trying to do. The fact is that people have been asleep for a long time, hundreds of years, born in to systems that uses fear to control.
Theres no such thing as money, its just a piece of paper with power and energy created by the system.
As soon as we are born they choose our clothing, toys, schooling etc all designed to bring us up in the system…and then what …we go to work to pay our tax, our dues straight back into the system. What little time left that we do have to think is manipulated by media, television etc and anyone else who wants a share of our hard earned cash.
The system is designed to lead us all away from truth so WE never get to experience who we really are.
People are dying, they are starving, some do not have shoes.It is happening and we choose to ignore. We choose to say its their fault..they didnt do well at school or they committed crime or they drink their bitter poison or slowly kill themselves with chemicals.
Do any of us ever stop and ask the question WHY?
I personally think you are all remarkable people and change is happening. Just look at the reaction from St Pauls. Shame on all religeous denominations for hiding behind god and standing by while people suffer over and over.
Human beings get off your knees..you have more power than you thought and THEY are in fear of what you might actually achieve.

there needs to be room for people who are trying to win over the middle class and are not anarchists and hippies….here in toronto its diificult to get traction focusing on a particular bill or law like corporate governance, robin hood tax, and civillian oversight. but torhogetonto and london can certainly work togetiher for civillian oversight and robin hood tax…..

We must not be confused about the problem and its solution.
The problem is the Power to create money out of thin air by a private corporation, and the solution is the abolition of this power, into the hands of the Government.
The bank of England is a private corporation.
Please, please educate yourselves on History and precisely what is going on.
It is a big scam, and the only way we can truly overcome these powerful wealthy interests is by truly UNDERSTANDING the whole scam.
Please visit my website where I have compiled all relevant information for the layman.
Watch the documentaries and videos to gain and understanding of what is going on, and how we are all being duped.
Knowledge is power, and we the people, once we fully understand the full extent of the SCAM, Will prevail.
I cannot stress it enough we EACH need to thoroughly UNDERSTAND exactly what is going on, I’ve been listening to the radio and TV and there is MUCH confusion over the direction and the message of the occupy movement. This needs to change.
Get CLEAR on the SOLUTION to the problem. The solution to the problem needs to be placed on a Monetary Reform page on this website.
You can find such a link on my website below.

Please watch the videos on the problem AND the proposed solution.
We ALL need to be clear on the message, and sing from the same hymn sheet!
Find the information on my website and all over youtube. http://www.moneyexplained.net

1. Government must retake the power to issue its own currency without debt and not leave it to a private bank cartel to have a monopoly on the creation of currency/money. Pay off the Debt with debt free Notes.
2, Abolish Fractional reserve banking. As the Debt is paid off, the reserve requirements of all banks and financial institutions would be raised proportionally at the same time.
3. Withdraw the UK from the IMF, BIS and the World Bank.
4. Control the amount of money in circulation as Guernsey do.
Thereby controlling inflation and not stealing our wealth through the stealth tax of inflation.

The bank of North Dakota already creates its money for the people without debt. Study them.

And thus the evil Debt based fractional reserve Money system will be no more and the people will be free from the shackles of these criminals.

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