Ah, yes, crystalinks.com. I've been there, seen that. Not much of it can really be taken at face value though. I only go there for the psychic developement area and the ezine, which is how I get my current events...kinda sad huh? Maybe i should start watching the news more often...

yes, well i supose i know what you mean by 'ahh yes crystalinks' but there is no reson that this isnt real, the sydney university would not have even gone out to it if there was reason too, or they were fake, alot of stuff there may not be worth its salt, but i can see how this happened, if the maori could reached New Zealond from the center of the pacific 500 years ago in canoes, the ancient egyptians could have reached australia in a ship.

Actually what I ment by "ah crystalinks" was kinda like when you remind an old lady of her childhood and she's like "ah those were the times". Lol! Yes, I do frequent crystalinks, but not all of the stuff she puts on it "clicks" you know? There's no reason why it shouldn't be real, its just when your dealing with subjects like math/science/history you generally can't base something on little evidence or "feelings".

The philosphy of the Egyptians was always a very internal one. Egypt rarely conquered a land, then occupied it for any length of time as Egypt was the only place they believed worth living in, everyone else was immediately inferior to them (in their mentality). The chances of an Egyptian expedition venturing very far out of Egypt is very unlikely at such an early time. Over a thousand years later the expedition to Punt was widely acclaimed and proclaimed all over Dier el Bahari, Punt was very close to Egypt in the modern sense. Why is there so little evidence of the Egyptians venturing out from the Niles' Banks, let alone to the other side of the world. It took the rest of Europe until 1723 to get to Australia (Cook, I believe), making it no easy feat even in a huge wooden ship with huge sails and crews of dozens of men. I wasn't even aware that the Egyptians were sea sailors at such an early time. Perhaps Sekhmet can clarify this point for me. I am deeply sceptical if it is true, surely the news coverage would have been much greater. If it were proved true then the entire history of the world would be drastically changed, why have the newspapers not even touched the story (they haven't in England anyway).

quote: Originally posted by PharoahKel Do they know how old these are? Maybe some family went down there while on a tour or something like that and carved there names and other glyphs they knew as a joke or something?

Hi Pharaoh Kel, according to Paul White's 1996 article the hieroglyphs are in some places very eroded suggesting a very old age from hundreds to thousands of years.

The hieroglyphs located in New South Wales, Biscayne Park do tell a story. Using archaic hieroglyphs that predate the Middle Kingdom. They tell the story of Egyptian sailors shipwrecked in Australia. Their leader Lord Djes-ed, a royal leader, after two years of working his way westward. Is felled by a snake bite and dies in "this wretched land" and recieves burial there. ( i like the wording 'wretched land' because that is how, especially later period, Egyptians felt about any land other than Egypt.) Three kings are mentioned in the glyphs, Ra-jedef, King of Upper and Lower Nile, the son of Khufu, the son of Sneferue. Placing the tale, and glyphs into the 4th Dynasty.

There is of course much controversy over the glyphs. Are they real or a fraud? There has been no artifacts recovered to support the tale of the glyphs. While some hieroglyphic experts point out that some of the glyphs are written backwards (misspelled so to speak). However this isn't such a problem because as one pointed out if the leader Lord Djes-eb was dead it is possible that their best speller and writer was dead as well. Another aspect is that if the glyphwriter was left handed and not an real expert he might have made some glyphs "backwards".

The Egyptians espeically in the Earlier Periods were well known traders. Khasekhmewy, 2nd Dynastic Pharaoh is the first known Pharaoh to trade by sea with Byblos. The huge ships such that Hatshepsut sent to Punt were known as Byblos ships. These ships date back to Egypt's earlist dynastic period as well.

Dr. Steve Young a speicalist in Ancient Ships even suggests that the Egyptians might have gone to Ur and other Mesopotamian cities by sail during the Predynastic period. Sailing from Red Sea ports of which a few certainly do date back as far as the Predynastic period, he suggests the Egyptians might have made it into the Persian Gulf to trade.

It is known that during the time of Cleopatra IV, one could sail to India from Egyptian ports.

One of Egypt's surviving stories is one about the Shipwrecked Sailor. If Lord Djes-eb, party had been shipwrecked on a trading venture to Punt, the Persian Gulf states, or even to India. There would have been no record of his voyage because he didn't return.

From the Red Sea, his most likely place of departure from Egypt it isn't hard to enter the Indian Ocean. A freak storm, a bad storm could have sent his ship, ships thousands of leagues off course. As there is very little big islands between the Horn of Africa and Australia it is reasonable to believe that Australia was the best land fall he made before meeting his death in a 'wretched land' far from the Nile.

Thor Heyerdalh did prove that ancient seamen had better boats then originally thought, and being seamen they were able to live at sea for periods longer than planned if need be.

What it boils down too is this though. Sekhmet, do you believe that Egyptian sailors reached Australia in 2500 BC? It may have been possible (unlikely though as a boat built for travelling down the cost to Punt would last 2 minutes in a mid sea strom powerful enough to drive it to Australia)). What evidence is there though of many other expeditions, espescially via sea further away from Egypt than the Sinai? I know that by the time of the Ptolemies there was great sea travel to India and other exotic places but we are talking about an expedition 2200 years earlier. A lot happens in 2200 years.

What it boils down too is this though. Sekhmet, do you believe that Egyptian sailors reached Australia in 2500 BC? It may have been possible (unlikely though as a boat built for travelling down the cost to Punt would last 2 minutes in a mid sea strom powerful enough to drive it to Australia)). What evidence is there though of many other expeditions, espescially via sea further away from Egypt than the Sinai? I know that by the time of the Ptolemies there was great sea travel to India and other exotic places but we are talking about an expedition 2200 years earlier. A lot happens in 2200 years.

What i believe isn't really important here, i do believe it is possible. Unlikely but possible that a 4th Dynasty Byblos ship made it to Australia. Until the site is examined to a deeper degree than it has been. i prefer to leave it at that possible but unlikely. In Seagoing Ships and Seamanship in the Bronze Age Levant by Shelley Wachsmann, there is no doubt that dynastic seagoing ships known as Byblos ships could have made the trip.

Another source that gets me to believe it is possible is the story the glyphs tell. It is complete story even down to "wretched land" is true Egyptian termology for any land outside of Egypt. Then there is the problem of the weathering indictating they are centuries if not thousands of years old. Hieroglyphs weren't readable from about 300 AD to 1822 AD let alone able to telling a story by an imposter. So, the soonest the glyphs could have been there was 1822 That person would have had to know enough about Egyptian writing to be able to formulate a story. Then produce it, then weather it to look like it happened centuries or thousands of years earlier. Possible? As possible i guess as a 4th dynasty ship from Egypt ending up in Egypt.

Nor does it have to have been able to be done before. You come from a seagoing nation. When ships don't come home, they are believed to be lost at sea. Regardless that the "lost ones" acutally made landfall somewhere but due to circumtances were unable to return to their home. Seagoing peoples rarely send out other ships to look for the lost ones.

As for the seatrade of 2400 BCE, there isn't enough documentation to give us much knowledge. i do believe that the few finds of Late Bronze Age shipping that exist. Have shocked the experts because they are bigger, show evidence of greater sea trade than what had been considered possible. i would say that we underestimate the ancients for the most part, and in their ability to trade great distances by sea as well.

I never said that it was impossible for the Egyptians to have reached Australia, I just refuse to believe it. I find the idea very far fetched to be honest. A journey to Punt would last at the most two or three weeks. Do you mean to say that the Egyptians carried enough food and water with them to last the journey of several months that would take them to Australia? I dont think they would have done, unless they knew where they were going. I will need a lot of convincing on this one. I agree that they were advanced, but we only managed it in the begining of the eighteenth century, and we have been a naval nation for centuries. It must have been one hell of a storm for them to travel across the entire Indian Ocean in enough time to stop them ding of starvation or dehydration in the hottest part of the globe.

No Si-Amun, i am not interested in convincing you LOL First i don't believe it that strongly myself. Secondly, i am not a dictator thata requires everyone to believe as i do

i just believe it is possible, unlikely but possible. The reasons listed above as to why. There is another possibility that has come to mind. If this really happened and they were in seas unfamiliar to them. They would have looked to the sun as a guide. That would have been an easterly direction. And to the east of where they were would be Australia. They wouldn't have gone westward which was the direction they would have had to go to find Africa. Why not? Because to a 4th Dynasty sailor west was the land of the dead.

Nor do i believe they planned to go to Australia, they ended up there. Being Egyptians they would have been comfortable on shipboard, and water. Being Egpytians they could have fished from their ship to obtain food. Water they could have gotten from rain, and island hopping maybe.

Again i don't think it is real possible. It is just those glyphs that bother me and keep me from dismissing the whole thing.

lol i like the thing about 'wretched land' because that is what it is. I really badly want to go up there and explore a bit, just gotta nag my mum and dad a bit more, there is also apparently a pyramid in queensland and evidence of Ancient aborigionals woshiping sun gods, also language dialect that is similar to the ancient egyptians,

I think the idea of a pyramid is a bit too far fetched now. I can accept the possibility that perhaps there may have been a freak accident once, but I doubt it could lead to the building of a pyramid. Imagine, in 1492 Columbus "discovered" the West Indies and thus the American Continent. How long was it before any sizeable settlement grew up? Let alone an infrastructure large enough of building such a grand project.
Sekhmet, I understand that you are not a dictator, I merelt wanted to have a discussion on this so I am interested to know how you would turn my head a bit more. That is what an intellectual argument is, isn't it?

I have heard about this on other websites besides crystalinks.com. I haven't done this in a while, but if you go to Yahoo search and type in "Australian hieroglyphics" you used to get several sites covering the discovery of the heiroglyphics found in Australia.

As to whether or not the Egyptians would have been able to make the journey... Why not? I can't rememeber who it was exactly, but someone sailed across the ocean in an Egyptian reed ship in the '60's or '70's. It would have been completely possible for them to have gotten to Australia in a reed ship, and we know that they also had the capability of making wooden ships (i.e. the one found in the boat pit next to the Great Pyramid). Just because Europeans didn't discover new lands until relatively recently considering that Egypt was an ancient culture doesn't mean that it wasn't possible. The Egyptians were a very advanced civilization, even having made many medical advances that you would not have thought possible for such an ancient people. They had the capability of building monolithic pyramids of stone blocks cut and set so perfectly and so mathematically accurate that it still puzzles architects today as to how they did it. They knew how to follow the stars as a navigational guide, they knew which direction was north (Even the pyramids were perfectly aligned to the North, South, East and West). So why couldn't they have built a ship and sailed to Australia?

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