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Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher

No Phil, I am not an anti.
I own the land and the sporting rights. Nobody else has the right to shoot over my land. Pheasants are a pest, they eat my cabbage and make them unmarketable. If they bother me I usually shoot them with a rifle and give them to someone that will eat them (don't like to waste things)

Besides all that, there really is more bird and wildlife on my place now than ever before. Including buzzards.
From what I have seen they have made no impact in general, I do concede to a lack of hares and peewits. This may be the hares decided to live on the new golf course next door or brock ate them. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that was down to buzzards though.
Rabbits are unaffected by much at all.

A market gardener & a significant number of allotment holders tell me that if they have pheasants in their cabbages...they don't have caterpillars !

Re: Rabbit control

Anyone who blames birds of prey for the reduction in numbers of small birds ought to try training one and catching those birds! It isn't so easy!

A hard winter can decimate small birds -- which often compensate by having several large broods a year.

I don't believe birds of prey control the numbers of small birds but rather the other way around and I could bore you all with statistics.

.....and that is from someone who has been involved with field sports all his life. But we've been through all this before.

There has been a big reduction in small bird numbers around here, but I think that has been due to a hard winter (2010/11) and the weather since. A few wet days and a lot of young birds of prey die simply because they can't hunt effectively.

Well Dry Rot, I too have been involved with field sports all my life...and I have also been involved with farming + conservation all my life !
Raptors, Corvids...& domestic moggies have all had a significant impact on the populations of some small birds ! That is a fact !!!
Just as the huge increase in Badger Numbers have decimated the populations of certain ground nesting species of birds...hedge hogs & Bumble bee's !!

Now I appreciate the fact that some of you guys probably keep & work Birds of prey...but you should not let that cloud your judgement & stop you from accepting hard facts !!

Re: Rabbit control

Have you gone organic now then?
I can't claim to never spray for them but as they are overwintered cabbage the caterpillars aren't there.
ps. Those "nasty" pesticides are probably what reduced the buzzards in the first place and they are just bouncing back to normal levels.

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher

Have you gone organic now then?
I can't claim to never spray for them but as they are overwintered cabbage the caterpillars aren't there.
ps. Those "nasty" pesticides are probably what reduced the buzzards in the first place and they are just bouncing back to normal levels.

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Phil

Well Dry Rot, I too have been involved with field sports all my life...and I have also been involved with farming + conservation all my life !
Raptors, Corvids...& domestic moggies have all had a significant impact on the populations of some small birds ! That is a fact !!!
Just as the huge increase in Badger Numbers have decimated the populations of certain ground nesting species of birds...hedge hogs & Bumble bee's !!

Now I appreciate the fact that some of you guys probably keep & work Birds of prey...but you should not let that cloud your judgement & stop you from accepting hard facts !!

Yes, but my life has been longer than yours...dah..di..dah..dah!

I want to train one of Daven's rabbit killing owls next!

No significant population of badgers up here and the Highlanders practical approach to legislation will probably keep it that way for a while yet. You are in a different part of the country to me. Lots and lots of uncultivated land up here, not much intensive agriculture, virtually no control of birds of prey or corvids (no magpies) and the small bird populations appear to have slumped....since the last couple of hard winters. Take away the food supply and nothing much can survive.

Re: Rabbit control

It takes much time and patience, and luck, and, and, and.......... and you gotta put salt on their tail feathers and sharpen their talons.......

Seriously tho...... I don't know what keeps them under control (gone), but it ain't people/hunters..... I drove by a place this morning about 2 miles from home that is pretty junked/cluttered up and has been for several years and saw 2 cottontails.... First ones I've seen outside the main city (6 miles away) or the 2 military installations (both hopping with them BTW) since I've been here.... There are no fox and/or birds of prey at those places.... Maybe it's just that the big hare's are bullies and beat the little ones up and take their lunch money????????

Be your self and speak your mind. Them that matter won't mind and the others don't matter

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher

Have you gone organic now then?
I can't claim to never spray for them but as they are overwintered cabbage the caterpillars aren't there.
ps. Those "nasty" pesticides are probably what reduced the buzzards in the first place and they are just bouncing back to normal levels.

Our permanent pasture (marshes) have been "organic" since my Grandfather moved hear in the mid 40's.
Have since "made it official", registered all the grass as Organic about 15 years ago....so more rules & regulations enforced by people that often don't have a bloody clue !
I was being pedantic (sarcastic) with the bit about "nasty pesticides".

You are probably right about pesticides being responsible for a sharp decline in the numbers of some birds of prey, but all the real nasty ones (like dieldrin) were banned a long time ago & there are now much tighter controls on the use of pesticides !

Not too sure how you would define "normal levels"....but in this part of the country we have seen a ten fold increase in the buzzard population over the last 20 to 30 years ! These populations are unsustainable & numbers now need to be controlled !

A very well known Organisation is thought to have released Red Kites in the area a few years ago ? I understand that some experts on Birds of Prey have told the organisation that the success of the program is in jeopardy due to the "abnormally high" population of Buzzards in the Area.

Of course, This same organisation have been told for the last god knows how many years that the "abnormally high" population of Badgers in the area has been putting livestock farmers business's in jeopardy & has actually resulted in some going out of business or having to give up Livestock production.

I suppose we can live in hope that, one day, these people may actually start to listen ?

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Phil

Our permanent pasture (marshes) have been "organic" since my Grandfather moved hear in the mid 40's.
Have since "made it official", registered all the grass as Organic about 15 years ago....so more rules & regulations enforced by people that often don't have a bloody clue !
I was being pedantic (sarcastic) with the bit about "nasty pesticides".

You are probably right about pesticides being responsible for a sharp decline in the numbers of some birds of prey, but all the real nasty ones (like dieldrin) were banned a long time ago & there are now much tighter controls on the use of pesticides !

Not too sure how you would define "normal levels"....but in this part of the country we have seen a ten fold increase in the buzzard population over the last 20 to 30 years ! These populations are unsustainable & numbers now need to be controlled !

A very well known Organisation is thought to have released Red Kites in the area a few years ago ? I understand that some experts on Birds of Prey have told the organisation that the success of the program is in jeopardy due to the "abnormally high" population of Buzzards in the Area.

Of course, This same organisation have been told for the last god knows how many years that the "abnormally high" population of Badgers in the area has been putting livestock farmers business's in jeopardy & has actually resulted in some going out of business or having to give up Livestock production.

I suppose we can live in hope that, one day, these people may actually start to listen ?

I can't define what is normal levels. It is now quite "normal" to see 10 or more at a time riding the thermals on sunny days. 30 years ago it would make the newspaper if one was seen.
I still don't believe they make any difference to any other wildlife. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of it, unless you can prove that it was them responsible for the hares and lapwing going. Maybe it was, or maybe it was brock as there's no shortage of them around.
Plenty of pheasants seem to raise young here each year so neither are wiping them out and I would have thought they would be easy pickings.

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher

I can't define what is normal levels. It is now quite "normal" to see 10 or more at a time riding the thermals on sunny days. 30 years ago it would make the newspaper if one was seen.I still don't believe they make any difference to any other wildlife. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of it, unless you can prove that it was them responsible for the hares and lapwing going. Maybe it was, or maybe it was brock as there's no shortage of them around.
Plenty of pheasants seem to raise young here each year so neither are wiping them out and I would have thought they would be easy pickings.

It does not sound like you have any where near the over population of Buzzards that we have here, so its not surprising that you don't see the evidence or the real effects that a huge over population of Buzzards can have on other wildlife !

Last week when I ploughed back a small 7 acre field for Parsnips I counted no less than 17 Buzzards hoping about on the ploughing...with at least another 6 in the air !
And a few years ago when I was ploughing a block of land that is adjacent to a fairly large forest...we had well over 30 Buzzards following the plough.

Have you ever seen a jackdaw clinging to a verticle stone wall with one leg...whilst using the other leg to pull blue tits nests out of the stone work ?
Have you ever seen hearing gulls & lesser Black backs swooping down over inland ponds taking young ducklings off the water...& then swallowing them whole ?
Have you ever seen three buzzards (on the floor) "herding" young pheasant poults in to the corner of a release pen...& then killing them indiscriminately ?
Have you ever seen Buzzards taking fully grown laying hens ?

Re: Rabbit control

Re: Rabbit control

Besides all that Phil, it does indeed sound like you have more buzzards than me, but the things you quoted them eating are not wildlife.
I can understand your distress (for want of a better word) at them eating pheasants but do you really think they affect much wildlife? Have rabbits disappeared for instance?
I'm not looking for an argument, I am interested. Will the levels not reach a natural balance anyway? As in the land can only support a certain level anyway.
There's still room for more buzzards here in my opinion but they seem to have reached an equilibrium over the last 5 or more years.
When I say the other wildlife is thriving here alongside the buzzards, sparrowhawks etc I mean it. It is what I have seen for myself on my farms.

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Dave Applesquasher

Besides all that Phil, it does indeed sound like you have more buzzards than me, but the things you quoted them eating are not wildlife.
I can understand your distress (for want of a better word) at them eating pheasants but do you really think they affect much wildlife? Have rabbits disappeared for instance?
I'm not looking for an argument, I am interested. Will the levels not reach a natural balance anyway? As in the land can only support a certain level anyway.
There's still room for more buzzards here in my opinion but they seem to have reached an equilibrium over the last 5 or more years.
When I say the other wildlife is thriving here alongside the buzzards, sparrowhawks etc I mean it. It is what I have seen for myself on my farms.

The points I made in my last post were made to highlight the fact that you seemed to imply that if you personally had not seen something...then it didn't happen ?
You are of course right though, Pheasant poults in a release pen & domestic chickens are not "wildlife"...they (just like your cabbages) are our livelihood !

And yes, you are right again, there will be a "natural balance"....with the species at the top of the food chain being dominant leading to a decline in the population of other species !

As I have said before...in this area the huge increase in Raptor numbers in recent years has had, and is having, a significant impact on other species of wildlife....Including other birds of prey such as Kestrels (Buzzards regularly seen mobbing them & taking prey off them), Red Kites (they do not seem to co-exist with Buzzards when there are large numbers of Buzzards) and Barn Owls (Again Buzzards mob the adults in the Evening & make hunting almost impossible...& We have actually witnessed 2 Buzzards killing 3 young Barn owls that were getting ready to make their maiden flight.

Sparrow Hawks have also been seen mobbing kestrels...& even killing them !
And in recent years, we have witnessed "feeding frenzies" over our game crops ! The Sunflowers, Millet & Quinoa attract a large number of small seed eating birds...which in turn attracts the Sparrow hawks ! But it is not just one or two "resident" birds...we often see 6 or 7 of the damn things hunting in one area ! In more recent years these Hawks have now "specialised" in targeting species like the Goldfinches & Green finches as these two in particular will rise from the feed crops & look to pirch on overhead wires or trees etc...rather than diving in to the nearest thicket like the sparrows & tits !

We do not want to see birds of prey "exterminated", far from it (we have a good "relationship" with our resident pair of Tawny owls) But the populations of certain species have reached the point where those populations need to be kept under control !

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Phil

We do not want to see birds of prey "exterminated", far from it (we have a good "relationship" with our resident pair of Tawny owls) But the populations of certain species have reached the point where those populations need to be kept under control !

Re: Rabbit control

Interesting topic.

To the poster that suggested a Rodenator, remember it's illegal to use one of these devices on any live animal, and you have a duty of care to ensure that all reasonable measures have been taken to ensure the burrows are empty before use.

Gassing can be successful if done correctly, but it's also very expensive. Apart from the cost of the gas itself, you have to be trained before using it, and that's quite a cost on it's own.

It should also be remembered that Phosphine is more toxic than Cyanide, and that there is no antidote. It may look like a harmless grey tablet, but it's actually very dangerous stuff.

Fencing combined with drop boxes is undoubtedly the best way of getting long term control of rabbit problems, and providing you spread the cost over a number of years, it's usually cheaper than gassing.

Shooting has it's place, and will help keep numbers sensible, but at this time of year they rabbits will breed quickly and fill any vacuum created.

Birds of prey, even in numbers, have no significant effect on rabbit numbers.

Re: Rabbit control

just thought i'd 'bump' this back up as i've struggled with atv ,shotgun, red filter etc.....seems drop traps are good?...what about cage traps? i bought a couple but they seem pretty useless....any other ideas?

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by spin cycle

just thought i'd 'bump' this back up as i've struggled with atv ,shotgun, red filter etc.....seems drop traps are good?...what about cage traps? i bought a couple but they seem pretty useless....any other ideas?

years ago me and a mate had real good results with a long net
now i just wait in the truck with the 17hmr

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by spin cycle

just thought i'd 'bump' this back up as i've struggled with atv ,shotgun, red filter etc.....seems drop traps are good?...what about cage traps? i bought a couple but they seem pretty useless....any other ideas?

Get yourself a good night vision add on and you will batter them over time, we have controlled fox and rabbits now on a few farms and couple of golf coarse we shoot that it has now got to the stage that not a lot is seen at night now but we still go and try just for the walk alone, they are still a few there as the droppings show but numbers are well down, Leicestershire does not seem to have much problems rabbit wise, looking through this thread it was mentioned that fox mainly chase the weak, they chase the healthy ones as well, we watched two fox the other night using our night vision binoculars, they were working the field together chasing the rabbits and this is seen quite often with the lone charlie as well.
Badgers are in plenty there are at least 9 one just one golf course alone we shoot and now not one hedgehog is to be seen there but there was quite a few at one time some years back.
we see lots of owls hunting at night as well with the night vision.

Re: Rabbit control

Get a decent airgun. Free meat. Although I accept us practical country folk don't actually like (or in many cases know how) to kill and process a wild animal onto the plate. Easier to go to Tescos and spend your processed meal time bitching about supermarkets ruining farming. Ooops.

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Dry Rot

Rabbits need to be controlled using every means at your disposal -- lamping, dogging, shooting, snaring, ferreting, drop boxes, etc. -- and it needs to be relentless! Now is the time to hit them before they breed again over the summer. Disease has hit them harder here than I have ever known but there are young ones about already and they will be the young of those with immunity.

We have some relentless dogging going on around here but it doesn't seem to affect the rabbit population.

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Pasty

We have some relentless dogging going on around here but it doesn't seem to affect the rabbit population.

A lot will depend on how good your dogs are, how dark the night is, etc. We went out one night and shot a load with the lamp and the .22. Then we decided to run a couple of dogs just for the fun of it. We got twice as many with the dogs!

If the OP is looking for different ways of controlling rabbits, I've heard flying a hawk at them at night with a spot light works where they are shy. The hawks are trained to fly down the beam and wear an LED on one leg. The advantage is that it is virtually silent so good where rabbits are shy or shooting would be dangerous, but I've never tried it. Still not going to kill big numbers though.

Re: Rabbit control

i want to control the rabbits....not want to watch...'going like rabbits' ....though i guess night vision goggles would be good for both .....i'm guessing night vision is no good for shotgun because of muzzle flash??? i've a decentish airifle though

been there with ferrets great if you like digging

thinking of drop traps along rabbit fence?.....seems alot of cage traps advertised but do they work?

Re: Rabbit control

Ten or Fifteen years ago Rabbits were every where here....same situation as described above.
A buzzard appeared just one ( there must have been two). It was a novelty, something to be seen and commented on.
Two keepers were always out at night knocking of anything at was seen.
All they were doing was harvesting the surplus.
Now the situation is reversed.
If we see a rabbit it is to be commented on, all those eaten off headlands have gone. The Buzzards? They are everywhere, probably at saturation point.
They work daylight to dusk every day.
The Keeper!!!!?
Seems to be under the delusion that his unceasing work has led to the demise!
Gee

Re: Rabbit control

Originally Posted by Gee

Ten or Fifteen years ago Rabbits were every where here....same situation as described above.
A buzzard appeared just one ( there must have been two). It was a novelty, something to be seen and commented on.
Two keepers were always out at night knocking of anything at was seen.
All they were doing was harvesting the surplus.
Now the situation is reversed.
If we see a rabbit it is to be commented on, all those eaten off headlands have gone. The Buzzards? They are everywhere, probably at saturation point.
They work daylight to dusk every day.
The Keeper!!!!?
Seems to be under the delusion that his unceasing work has led to the demise!
Gee

The people "under delusion" are those that think large numbers of Buzzards have a significant impact on the Rabbit population.
These people are probably "educated" in the same way as the people that keep insisting that Badgers don't spread TB.

Re: Rabbit control

Lamping with night vision has had a far bigger impact on rabbit population in my area ,IMO buzzards will only get a lot of rabbits if there is mixy` ,and more likely in the summer when there are long daylight hours .In the winter when there are long dark hours with no mixy` the opportunity for birds of prey to get rabbits is very rare unless the RSPB fit them with night vision goggles .

Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.