I'm holding out hope that once ebola blows over and comes to nothing they'll realize these people are full of it but I'm not holding my breath, cognitive dissonance is deep.

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Unfortunately whatever happens is likely going to be shoehorned into the narrative. Like with the "chemtrails" thing. If the California drought continues, then chemtrails caused it. If it rains a lot this winter, then chemtrails made it rain.

The underlying belief is that everything is controlled. The details of what happens are just whatever the "elite" made happen, and so will confirm the belief.

The challenge here is making someone see that their belief is not obvious. It needs to be evidence based. They think they have all the evidence they need, but they really have no real evidence. It's quite a challenge to communicate this without the angry cries of "wake up sheeple!"

The main stream media lies so somehow this means conspiracy theorists never do.

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This is one of my favourite logic attacks they make. If the BBC makes an error, it will correct it. The immediately obvious one is the 911 live feed in which the reporter mistaken said WTC7 had collapsed as the snippet of information had passed through many people that WTC7 was abandoned and was about to collapse. This to a CT is the smoking gun and video is all over Youtube....

Then, in the US the MSM (still not got a definition I'm fully comfortable with) will make statements that suit their interests, and 'News' channels are interspersed with opinion shows, so Fox will say ISIS is Obama's fault regardless, and I'v even seen them somehow blaming him for Ebola too. The best one was someone on Fox and Friends said he thought it was suspicious that the World Cup (planned like clockwork, moron) was on at the same time as xyz news event and was a distraction.... Like football (soccer) ever distracted Americans....!

But, in rebuttal, RT and PressTV are accepted without question, and any allusion to their bias is immediately discounted due to the fact that they will invite any old fruitloop into their studios unopposed....

Yes this. I see where Mick is coming from but (for the most part) you aren't going to convince someone who only believes in chemtrails because they believe in illuminati/NWO stuff, the details don't matter to them. All they see is the flashy youtube video saying "whistleblower exposes X" and confirmation bias kicks in. Which is to say all of these techniques work great online or in a formal debate as eventually you'll reach someone but they aren't much use with family unless they are willing to visit debunking sites even if only to debate.

I've been thinking a lot about this topic and I wonder if the best thing to do if you have a family member that believes is incorporate some of kind Al-anon/Nar-anon type skills where you focus on yourself and lovingly detach from the person.

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I think Mick's take on (gently) sharing some evidence and hard facts with your family would be a first approach and if over time that fails, and the situation become intractable or contentious, then I would personally subscribe to your approach of lovingly detaching myself from that person or that situation. You can still have a loving relationship with them but just don't let them drag you into some one-way, single-track, pointless arguments that ignore evidence and, quite frankly, serves no positive purpose. That would be my option of last resort when all else fails. Some things just have to be left alone; we just need wisdom to decipher between the ones that can be salvaged and the ones that are beyond redemption and at what point to make that decision.

I really do like your analogy about Christians who believe that everything bad that happens is done by the devil and he has that much power when in fact we are the architects of our actions. A few days ago, I was engaged in a discussion with a child victim of abuse that I have worked with for some time and even I was astonished at the level of brainwashing the child had been subjected to by the abuser that the devil was responsible for the abuse that the abuser perpetrated on the poor victim! I spent some time in re-educating the victim that people make their choices and sometimes those choices are bad choices that are harmful to others - it has nothing to do with the devil. Luckily, in this instance, I was successful. It is sad that such notion pervades widely in some Christian circles.

My girlfriend would say the influence of the devil is there in all the bad stuff but as a person you still have free will so it is up to the individual to choose between doing the right thing or the wrong thing. If you aren't a believer, it still comes down to the same thing. you are responsible for choosing what to do, even if your outside influences are very strong in appearing to narrow your choices down.
In the particular case you are talking about, it seems like just an excuse for the abuser (I am guessing a family member) used to carry on doing something horrible so as not to accept blame for themselves.

This is one of my favourite logic attacks they make. If the BBC makes an error, it will correct it. The immediately obvious one is the 911 live feed in which the reporter mistaken said WTC7 had collapsed as the snippet of information had passed through many people that WTC7 was abandoned and was about to collapse. This to a CT is the smoking gun and video is all over Youtube....

Then, in the US the MSM (still not got a definition I'm fully comfortable with) will make statements that suit their interests, and 'News' channels are interspersed with opinion shows, so Fox will say ISIS is Obama's fault regardless, and I'v even seen them somehow blaming him for Ebola too. The best one was someone on Fox and Friends said he thought it was suspicious that the World Cup (planned like clockwork, moron) was on at the same time as xyz news event and was a distraction.... Like football (soccer) ever distracted Americans....!

But, in rebuttal, RT and PressTV are accepted without question, and any allusion to their bias is immediately discounted due to the fact that they will invite any old fruitloop into their studios unopposed....

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I think it is a question of people choosing to hear and believe what they want to hear without asking questions; but if the evidence doesn't fit their position, rather than do the honourable thing and change their position, they quickly sweep the evidence under the carpet or change the topic. Sadly, in my line of work, this attitude is more common than not and we just have to deal with the fruitcakes as they come along, which makes it more challenging and annoying than necessary, but worthwhile. It is always interesting to observe and analyse where these believe systems originate from and why people chose to believe in certain things and not in others.

As for Obama being responsible for Ebola...ahhh...he's African, isn't he? So, even though he's from Kenya, he must be responsible!

Africa is all one big place, EVERYONE knows that. (well everyone who KNOWS Obama is African and Muslim and wants to take all our guns away so the UN can force US citizens into FEMA concentration camps to kill off [cos the depopulation chemicals in chemtrails are too inefficient] but having killed them all off, will at least be nice enough to give them a decent burial in a plastic coffin for 4 as opposed to just bulldozing them into a ditch)

My girlfriend would say the influence of the devil is there in all the bad stuff but as a person you still have free will so it is up to the individual to choose between doing the right thing or the wrong thing. If you aren't a believer, it still comes down to the same thing. you are responsible for choosing what to do, even if your outside influences are very strong in appearing to narrow your choices down.
In the particular case you are talking about, it seems like just an excuse for the abuser (I am guessing a family member) used to carry on doing something horrible so as not to accept blame for themselves.

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I agree with your girlfriend.

Sadly, this is a common abuser-tactic and it serves the purpose of control, manipulation and continuous abuse and to secure the child-victim's silence and 'co-operation'. The manipulation in itself is often as damaging as the abuse and over the years, I've had to acquire the skills to talk these children out of the negative view of themselves that have been planted in their minds - the mind is such a powerful thing.

In my years of experience, I am yet to see an abuser own up to or take responsibility for their actions! It is always someone else - either their spouse, or the child-victim or indeed the devil or God! If I had my way, the sentencing guideline for this sort of crime would receive an upward review that fits the crime.

There are some parallels in this and the way some people are 'manipulated' to believe in conspiracies that just don't stack up! As adults, they can obviously make up their own minds based on research and evidence, but for some that is just not an option. I really did enjoy reading Astro's very informative post on his journey from the conspiracies side of the fence to debunking.

To the OP, I'm of the opinion that if their beliefs don't hurt them or anyone else and they don't try to convert you or someone in your presence, there's no reason to worry about it.

In general, this thread makes me feel like the word conspiracy theorist needs to be changed to conspiracy believer or dropped altogether in favor of truther. I consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I credit the declassification of MKUltra documents with turning me into one. That was far out stuff, it was speculation, and finally some flabbergasted shrinks listening to some really weird repressed memories filing through the FOIA to look into these claims. At least, that's the directions I used to get to the actual documents myself when I decided I finally wanted to know what the word "illuminati" meant. I mucked through a lot of weird stuff before I started to sniff that trail out. So, yeah, I call myself a conspiracy theorist because I look up a lot of stuff in that realm and I don't immediately dismiss something unless it is shown as false. And quite frankly, I've told a few people about MKUltra and they looked at me like I was telling them about my pet dragon I fly around on until I told them they can actually look it up themselves. The incredulity I've seen in reaction to things that have actually happened (not just MKUltra) reminds me to keep my mind open to the bizarre yet I somehow manage to live life without wearing a tin foil hat.

I consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I credit the declassification of MKUltra documents with turning me into one.

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Welcome to Metabunk. Where did you learn of MKUltra? I ask as it is something that I have discussed with people a lot, and it always appears that they believe it was bigger than it was when in fact it was a lot of experimentation and focussed on specific areas.

I credit the declassification of MKUltra documents with turning me into one. That was far out stuff, it was speculation, and finally some flabbergasted shrinks listening to some really weird repressed memories filing through the FOIA to look into these claims. At least, that's the directions I used to get to the actual documents myself when I decided I finally wanted to know what the word "illuminati" meant.

Hey all, it's been a while. Life has been hectic, and I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis a few months back and I have been busy trying to deal with that.

I really like reading about people's conspiracy theory pasts because I like to see if there are any patterns between everyone's story and my own personal story. I agree with some of the things mentioned in this thread, it seems that some "risk factors" for becoming a conspiracy theorist are things like:
1. Lack of education in the area of the conspiracy theory (lots of people are smart, but no one is educated in everything)
2. Greater distrust of authority, government, the official story...etc.
3. Not enough introspection
- This was big for me, personally. I never went fully down the rabbit hole because I was always concerned about good reasoning, logical fallacies, and cognitive dissonance. However, I did explain away/dismiss things that didn't quite add up with things like "Oh, this area is not well researched" or "Not many people know about this, so it is difficult to disprove it" etc. I also wasn't totally aware of when I was using logical fallacies.4. Belief that most things in the world are black and white, inability to see shades of grey and complexities...randomness.
5. Possibly wanting to protect a belief in the metaphysical, spiritual
- In my own experience, and in posts I've read, it seems possible that people can protect their belief in conspiracy because it fuels their belief that the unknown is special/crazy/extraordinary instead of possibly bland. You can see this when people say things like "Oh well, there are so many things science doesn't know or understand so how can you just discount *insert conspiracy theory*". To me, that signifies a sort of protection in the belief of the extraordinary, which helps protect spiritual/religious beliefs. I don't have anything against the spiritual or religious, I identify as agnostic when it comes down to it, but this is something I've noticed that happened to me when I was into CTs.6. Needing a convenient explanation for things that neatly ties up the unexplainable in the context of a worldview
- The world is a scary and unpredictable place. Getting ulcerative colitis, a disease in which there is no cure and so few people get it, has made me come to terms with randomness in the world. A few years ago, it may have been much easier to deal with the idea that big pharma or the FDA suppresses cures, wants to make people sick to make money, are all composed of a group of homogenous, evil people who never get sick, know of all the cures already, and just want to keep us all sick and on drugs. This would have at least made me feel some control over the situation because the cure may be out there, the cure may be really simple, and the only reason I got it was because big pharma created an environment in which everyone gets sick. Comforting at first, but to keep that belief going requires a lot of time and energy in seedier parts of the internet, and instead of dealing with my disease, I can see myself spiraling into unhappiness and depression because big pharma doesn't want me to feel better. However, in the long term, coming to terms with the seeming randomness of terrible life events is much healthier, and I think an approach rooted much more in personal resilience and strength. That's another topic, though.

These are just some of the things I've noticed, and hopefully the points are condensed down. Lots of good insight in this thread. To reach the most people, it is very important to know what you're dealing with. Ultimately I think it's not about "winning" a conversation, but helping loved ones and also those who are open to see them out of potentially dangerous and debilitating views. However, if the belief doesn't seem to be harmful to them or others around them, then when it comes to family, I think leaving it alone can often times be better.

This experience I will relate, although not a direct family relative, is one by marriage.

A LEO (that's 'Law Enforcement Officer') with a K-9 unit, in some area of northern California. IA (Internal Affairs) began an investigation
into his use of racial and other types of slurs, while conducting duties as a LEO.

This person's "views" are his own, of course...but how much are those views influenced by familial culture & (certain aspects) of cultural media?

What I am tip-toeing around is the aspect of "bunk" that some other Human Beings on this planet who do not have "white skin" are somehow...
...."inferior". This sort of mindset IS TOTAL bunk, of course. Does this topic fall under the auspices of THIS thread topic?

Just curious. Please, don't "branch" off if it isn't proper....new thread if appropriate.

(BTW...This individual was offered a 'voluntary resignation' option, (As opposed to termination) and will now be moving to Texas. To be a LEO with another agency, in that state. I have my own opinions on this....).

Sorry to hear about your Colitis, Tunnelvisionary, I know it's a real pain the ass (pun intended) cos I have it too. I actually think Weedwhacker has a point.
Racism IS bunk. The idea that some humans are automatically superior to others because of their heritage or skin colour is nonsense.(I have heard people of all colours claiming they are superior btw) Where did it come about and how did it spread?
I think a part of it is due to a fear of "the Other" where singling out those who are different in any way seems to be a part of human nature, but I have also heard it said it was pretty much invented around the time of the Transatlantic slave trade as a way of excusing the practice of buying and selling Africans into the new World. Certainly there WERE people from Africa and of African descent living and integrating in England around the 1500's, including John Blanke, the trumpeter and certainly around the time of the TAS trade, the "black people are inferior" sentiments certainly were out in full force, but that may not be their actual origin.

I think Mick's take on (gently) sharing some evidence and hard facts with your family would be a first approach and if over time that fails, and the situation become intractable or contentious, then I would personally subscribe to your approach of lovingly detaching myself from that person or that situation. You can still have a loving relationship with them but just don't let them drag you into some one-way, single-track, pointless arguments that ignore evidence and, quite frankly, serves no positive purpose. That would be my option of last resort when all else fails. Some things just have to be left alone; we just need wisdom to decipher between the ones that can be salvaged and the ones that are beyond redemption and at what point to make that decision.

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If it was just the wacky political stuff I could stomach it and leave this alone but I'm at a loss on what to do about the alternative medicine beliefs.

They proudly announce how they would never get a flu shot or any sort of vaccination for themselves or their children and would rather die. Ebola is an obvious false flag to get everyone to take the ebola vaccine which will give everyone ebola (somehow, often their theories make no sense many of the conspiracy theories they listen to outright contradict each other) This is someone who is on the recommended list of people to get the flu shot because their illness makes them immune compromised so you can see why I am extremely alarmed. Instead of the 15 dollars for a flu shot they have wasted over a hundred in magic beans.

I've read online about others in this situation and the outlook seems grim. You can't do anything to stop an adult if they want to commit suicide in this way, short of getting them declared incompetent which is almost impossible to do.

Welcome to Metabunk. Where did you learn of MKUltra? I ask as it is something that I have discussed with people a lot, and it always appears that they believe it was bigger than it was when in fact it was a lot of experimentation and focussed on specific areas.

Not to mention a total failure....

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I don't remember where I first learned of it. It wouldn't be a site worth mentioning anyhow because like I said I ran into MKUltra on accident just doing a search on illuminati to find out what that word means and chances are it was a wildly speculative type of website!

If it was just the wacky political stuff I could stomach it and leave this alone but I'm at a loss on what to do about the alternative medicine beliefs.

They proudly announce how they would never get a flu shot or any sort of vaccination for themselves or their children and would rather die. Ebola is an obvious false flag to get everyone to take the ebola vaccine which will give everyone ebola (somehow, often their theories make no sense many of the conspiracy theories they listen to outright contradict each other) This is someone who is on the recommended list of people to get the flu shot because their illness makes them immune compromised so you can see why I am extremely alarmed. Instead of the 15 dollars for a flu shot they have wasted over a hundred in magic beans.

I've read online about others in this situation and the outlook seems grim. You can't do anything to stop an adult if they want to commit suicide in this way, short of getting them declared incompetent which is almost impossible to do.

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Oh dear! I know what you mean. That is hard and even I am at a loss. "Ebola is an obvious false flag to get everyone to take the ebola vaccine which will give everyone ebola...". Wow! I see what you mean. I think just gentle, on-going dissemination of information to them may be the only thing you can do. You can't force them away from their seemingly deep rooted beliefs swiftly. Sadly, there's no magic formula.

Oh dear! I know what you mean. That is hard and even I am at a loss. "Ebola is an obvious false flag to get everyone to take the ebola vaccine which will give everyone ebola...". Wow! I see what you mean. I think just gentle, on-going dissemination of information to them may be the only thing you can do. You can't force them away from their seemingly deep rooted beliefs swiftly. Sadly, there's no magic formula.

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Yes I think this is the best approach to take now. I don't know if Mick is okay with me using this forum as an outlet, if not I'll stop or post elsewhere, but I try to keep linking it to the topic at hand.

I got fed up and made several snide comments on their facebook page and of course it backfired spectacularly, I understand much better now why Mick acts the way he does and why the rules are in place here.

All I ended up doing was leading them to the whole debunking metabunk sites and youtube videos and now they are more entrenched in their conspiracy theory beliefs. The irony is most of those sites what they accuse Mick and this site of doing 90% is what they do but it's okay if the person you agree with does it.

Mind you in this situation it's me confronting the person not the other way around. I do hold it in and walk away most of the time but one can only take so much conspiracy nonsense playing in the background before you blow up.

Hi Mick, Thank you for this site and forum. My sister and her husband have over the past year or so have evolved into CT's and it is quite alarming. They believe in and post out on Facebook their belief in Chemtrails (that one is #1 on the hits chart for them) that the news is making up stories, The ISIS beheadings are faked, 911 was a US plot, etc...... basically what I have read in this stream seems to be a common problem with many of the posters regarding their family members. My sister does not work (she also does not often leave her house) she is 45 and her husband is an electrician who is often out of work for a year at a time.

My brother who is equally exasperated with her "crazy" posts recently replied to her latest of how the polar vortex is being controlled by chemtrails funded by Monsanto so they can sell more seed, heat, etc.... He posted "Erin you look silly, everyone knows they are doing this to control the unicorn and troll population in the US". I found the post funny, of course but she did not and now her family is not coming to Thanksgiving at my brothers house. They have two children 11 and 13 and I worry about what they are teaching them. It saddens me because I kind of feel we have kind of lost a part of our family.

I found the post funny, of course but she did not and now her family is not coming to Thanksgiving at my brothers house. They have two children 11 and 13 and I worry about what they are teaching them. It saddens me because I kind of feel we have kind of lost a part of our family.

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actually that might be a good thing. tell your brother to apologize sincerely (he doesn't have to mean it). Not only will it enable your niece/nephew to have family for the holidays but young teens are smarter than you think. They will greatly respect your brother for bowing down to their [...] parents to save Christmas.

It's a great role model opportunity.
Then you can start arguing again after the holidays : )

My nephew recently contracted chicken pox and as I discussed the situation with other family members, I was absolutely shocked to discover that my sister might be a full blown anti vaxxer.

I have not talked to her directly yet. I want to enter that conversation as informed as possible. I don't believe logic or reason will work with her, besides there is little I can say that has not already been said by her pediatrician.

Anyone else experience a similar situation? How did you guys handle it?

Come at her emotionally... would you rather your child run the risk of developing autism.. or dying from a disease that is preventable? Which is your priority? Very very very very very slim chances of your child having a mental disorder but alive.. or dead and buried. See what she says. Its cold and cruel, but it puts it into perspective.

Was your sister vaccinated? Were you? how about your friends? If so how many of them have had vaccine issues? That approach helped a friend of mine sow a seed of doubt in the mind of his wife, which lead to her doing some real research and finally deciding that vaccination was the best option for her children.

My nephew recently contracted chicken pox and as I discussed the situation with other family members, I was absolutely shocked to discover that my sister might be a full blown anti vaxxer.

I have not talked to her directly yet. I want to enter that conversation as informed as possible. I don't believe logic or reason will work with her, besides there is little I can say that has not already been said by her pediatrician.

Anyone else experience a similar situation? How did you guys handle it?

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i would ask her. listen to her. THEN come back here for more info. and WITH more info. I think pouncing on her like you preprepared in advance isnt the best course of action. She may not be as open with you in the future. hopefully he isnt an infant or toddler with chicken pox.

The irony is that both sides of the issue want what's best for the child.

I don't think I'll approach her with the intent of changing her mind, but I will try to plant a seed of reason in the hopes that it takes hold. I think the conversation must be concise with very few but clear points. Hence the need to understand her mindset beforehand.

At this this I don't know her motivation and apparently she has been evasive with the people that have talked to her about it. Thanks folks, if you have a personal anecdote and willing to share, I'm all ears.

aw. poor thing. thats young.
one thing to bear in mind, re: the chicken pox specifically its already a done deal. and if he was going to infect other 'unvaccinated' people/infants, he probably already has. so yea your approach is going to be tricky on this one. at this time.

i cant find data how effective the vaccine is with only the 12-15 month shot. it is 98% effective after the second dose.. but thats at age 4. and at 3 1/2 he is almost due for the second shot so might have gotten chicken pox anyway (just playing devils advocate here.. what your sister might come at you with).

my impression with chicken pox specifically is most people dont think the vaccine is a big deal because we all had the chicken pox and (sources say) out of 4 million a year only like 100 die. so most of us have never heard of anyone dying from chicken pox. it's a tougher vaccine to argue than say polio, mumps which can make men sterile (unless thats a myth, i should look that one up) etc.

to me the most important, first priority, is making sure parents know that your unvaccinated child is putting infants at risk. and making sure they know to always inform daycares, drs offices etc they are bringing an unvaccinated child into an area with infants. walmart, grocery stores, the park. many diseases are contagious BEFORE symptoms appear.

its one thing to risk your own childs life. its another to risk other peoples childrens lives, people who are willing to be responsible members of society!

that aside, im not sure bringing it up NOW regarding vaccinating your nephew is the best idea. she is probably feeling 'guilty' and is more defensive (which could be beneficial or blow up in your face... i dont know your sister)

unless she is planning on home schooling, hes going to have to have his shots to get into school or most daycares/preschools. period.

I'm currently reading a book by Eula Biss called "On Immunity" which I recommend for anyone wanting to enter a discussion about the merits and myths of vaccination. Through her own investigation and experience as a mother the author does a fine job at filling in the history of the subject. She is pro-vaccination, yet very sensitive to the anti-vaccination mind-set. Her arguments end up being all the more persuasive for their gentleness. I have learned a lot by reading it, in any case.

I'd probably ask how she arrived at the no vax idea, and as Whitebeard said, ask how many people in the immediate family/friends were vaccinated. If she goes outside that circle there are probably new acquaintances with autistic children attributing that to the vaccination.

It's hard to convince people about the issue once they get it into their heads, or even get them to look at the other side. I have a business associate who tells me every year when I've gotten the flu shot, for the past 5 years that he's not because he doesn't want to get the flu. It makes no difference that I have never gotten it after my shot or had any reaction or come down with the flu later, yet he has gotten the flu twice.

The Domesticated Animal Argument is the one that works best for me. Goes like this...

A virus is a wild thing. It is found in nature and basically lives free in service to itself and its kind. Just like, for example, horses did at some point long ago (or the ancestors of horses, to be precise). The process of creating a vaccine is a kind of domestication. A wild thing that otherwise is up to no good for us is captured, processed/trained and tamed to help expand our immune system. Just like the horse that is captured and trained to help us expand the farm or allow us to ride into town.

True enough, there exist a real but very rare danger that the domesticated virus does not behave as we want it to. It hurts instead of helps (insert the actual statistic for whatever vaccine you're discussing here). But the same is true of the horse. If you come up behind it, it might just kick you in the head. No matter how many horses have kicked how may heads, not many people argue for the end of horse training. Horses are worth the chance. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that there are many more horse kicks or dog bites than there are unwanted vaccine reactions. Horses don't save many lives anymore, but vaccines do. They are worth keeping.

yet very sensitive to the anti-vaccination mind-set. Her arguments end up being all the more persuasive for their gentleness

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it IS a sensitive subject. especially since in most cases you are talking to scared/nervous/over protective paretns to start with. and the WORST thing you can do with any parent is imply they are 'bad parents'! Thats why i try to focus on other people's infants the unvaccinated child puts at risk. and then i usually point out casually that their child/infant has been relatviely safe because of ALL the other parents who were willing to deal with the few side effects to protect your child.

Of course now that i looked up mumps and sterility issues. i might start using that one too for boys at least... Thanks for the book link!

it IS a sensitive subject. especially since in most cases you are talking to scared/nervous/over protective paretns to start with. and the WORST thing you can do with any parent is imply they are 'bad parents'! Thats why i try to focus on other people's infants the unvaccinated child puts at risk. and then i usually point out casually that their child/infant has been relatviely safe because of ALL the other parents who were willing to deal with the few side effects to protect your child.

Of course now that i looked up mumps and sterility issues. i might start using that one too for boys at least... Thanks for the book link!

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Agreed. Our bodies are private places existing in a very public shared space. I'm not fond of needles or any treatment that isn't necessary, but I'm old enough to have known polio survivors personally. My father had TB in the late 30's. The vaccine was newly available at the time, but health care during the Depression is not what it is today. Now that we all seem so healthy most of the time it has become easier to make the personal/private choice instead of the public/shared one. No one gets vaccinated for smallpox anymore because we all rolled up our sleeves and presented our arms. That virus no longer exists in nature. The only way to reduce the already minimal risks of individual vaccinations is by all of us getting vaccinated. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the case of smallpox is compelling. And, as usually, these sicknesses do the most damage where there is the most poverty. Solidarity should have something to do with it.

i cant find data how effective the vaccine is with only the 12-15 month shot. it is 98% effective after the second dose.. but thats at age 4. and at 3 1/2 he is almost due for the second shot so might have gotten chicken pox anyway (just playing devils advocate here.. what your sister might come at you with).

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i feel we are too off topic. but since my assumption was pretty wrong, it does stay pretty effective, i'm posting this info.

A case-control study conducted from 1997 to 2003 showed that 1 dose of varicella vaccine was 97% effective in the first year after vaccination and 86% effective in the second year. From the second to eighth year after vaccination, the vaccine effectiveness remained stable at 81 to 86%. Most vaccinated children who developed varicella during the 8 years after vaccination had mild disease.(1)

unless she is planning on home schooling, hes going to have to have his shots to get into school or most daycares/preschools. period.

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Unfortunately that does not apply to the province of Quebec. BTW, he was the only child in his daycare class to develop the disease. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I believe Ontario is the only Canadian province that requires children attending public school to be fully immunized.

I called her earlier today to say I simply wanted to understand her reasoning and fortunately she was willing to talk. She mentioned "big pharma", over-vaccinations, and how most preventable childhood diseases really aren't so bad. She was very vague on the sources of her information. I didn't press the issue.

Happily, they do intend to vaccinate their son before he attends public school. Because some parts of her story didn't add up, I suspect the boy's bout of chicken pox has motivated them to vaccinate in the future. He has a few facial scars to remind them of their decision.

So basically I asked a question, kept my big mouth shut, and listened. I ended it by saying that there are many misconceptions about vaccines that stem from simple misunderstandings and left it at that.

What exactly is the 'definition' of 'bunk', when it comes to families and their many disparate beliefs? "How" to reconcile these many (often) disparate beliefs? (Many not science-based, but only "meme-based")?

(I have "my" opinions...which for the sake of this thread I will not share...)...

...but isn't it always an aspect of trying to communicate, and to "get through" the disagreements (even if you must 'agree to disagree', and find a "truce") that matters?

Or, is it like me...and I MEAN "ME"! Who always wants to be correct!!? (Kidding a bit...for expositional example).

There are facts, and there are "beliefs". This is the "human condition".

EVERYONE of us come at life from a unique perspective....some of it is "innate", some is "learned" (from parents, or other authority figures in our lives). It is certainly challenging....but of course, that is "kinda-sorta" the "point".

My brother is much the same way, he listens to all of these conspiracy theories and relays them to me. I usually just agree, brush it off and go on with my day. Sometimes I'll search for things to debunk them in my own mind. Being in the United States most of his theories revolve around the dollar collapsing and prepping for it. He showed me an article once about prepping for a bleep hits the fan moment.The article had a salient point about preparing for a personal bleep hits the fan moment (like a loss of employment). I usually look at the macro fact his theory is talking about and try to find the micro point as it pertains to me, if the theory is too outlandish then I just brush it off and go on with my day.

Hey all, it's been a while. Life has been hectic, and I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis a few months back and I have been busy trying to deal with that.

I really like reading about people's conspiracy theory pasts because I like to see if there are any patterns between everyone's story and my own personal story. I agree with some of the things mentioned in this thread, it seems that some "risk factors" for becoming a conspiracy theorist are things like:
1. Lack of education in the area of the conspiracy theory (lots of people are smart, but no one is educated in everything)
2. Greater distrust of authority, government, the official story...etc.
3. Not enough introspection
- This was big for me, personally. I never went fully down the rabbit hole because I was always concerned about good reasoning, logical fallacies, and cognitive dissonance. However, I did explain away/dismiss things that didn't quite add up with things like "Oh, this area is not well researched" or "Not many people know about this, so it is difficult to disprove it" etc. I also wasn't totally aware of when I was using logical fallacies.4. Belief that most things in the world are black and white, inability to see shades of grey and complexities...randomness.
5. Possibly wanting to protect a belief in the metaphysical, spiritual
- In my own experience, and in posts I've read, it seems possible that people can protect their belief in conspiracy because it fuels their belief that the unknown is special/crazy/extraordinary instead of possibly bland. You can see this when people say things like "Oh well, there are so many things science doesn't know or understand so how can you just discount *insert conspiracy theory*". To me, that signifies a sort of protection in the belief of the extraordinary, which helps protect spiritual/religious beliefs. I don't have anything against the spiritual or religious, I identify as agnostic when it comes down to it, but this is something I've noticed that happened to me when I was into CTs.6. Needing a convenient explanation for things that neatly ties up the unexplainable in the context of a worldview
- The world is a scary and unpredictable place. Getting ulcerative colitis, a disease in which there is no cure and so few people get it, has made me come to terms with randomness in the world. A few years ago, it may have been much easier to deal with the idea that big pharma or the FDA suppresses cures, wants to make people sick to make money, are all composed of a group of homogenous, evil people who never get sick, know of all the cures already, and just want to keep us all sick and on drugs. This would have at least made me feel some control over the situation because the cure may be out there, the cure may be really simple, and the only reason I got it was because big pharma created an environment in which everyone gets sick. Comforting at first, but to keep that belief going requires a lot of time and energy in seedier parts of the internet, and instead of dealing with my disease, I can see myself spiraling into unhappiness and depression because big pharma doesn't want me to feel better. However, in the long term, coming to terms with the seeming randomness of terrible life events is much healthier, and I think an approach rooted much more in personal resilience and strength. That's another topic, though.

These are just some of the things I've noticed, and hopefully the points are condensed down. Lots of good insight in this thread. To reach the most people, it is very important to know what you're dealing with. Ultimately I think it's not about "winning" a conversation, but helping loved ones and also those who are open to see them out of potentially dangerous and debilitating views. However, if the belief doesn't seem to be harmful to them or others around them, then when it comes to family, I think leaving it alone can often times be better.

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With my brother, numbers 4,5, and 6 definitely fit number 2 also. Combine those with mental illness and a bad relationship where his partner isolated him and treated him rather poorly (especially towards the end) and, boom, a believer is born.

With my brother, numbers 4,5, and 6 definitely fit number 2 also. Combine those with mental illness and a bad relationship where his partner isolated him and treated him rather poorly (especially towards the end) and, boom, a believer is born.

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Is the mental illness something he's actually been diagnosed with, and treated for? Is he aware that he's mentally ill, or does he dispute the diagnosis?

I am very loathe to bring mental illness into the equation as I don't feel there is the association that many think there is. There is a vast difference between someone who is mentally ill believing in conspiracy and someone who believes in a conspiracy because they are mentally ill. I would also hazard that there are equal numbers of debunkers and theorists that present with an illness anyway.

That is just an observation based on what I have experienced over the past year or so. Although at the moment I am on antipsychotics as I am having auditory paranoid hallucinations but I still manage to think critically. (Off topic but my GP thinks its hysterical I enjoy debunking and I am now having paranoid thought. It's either irony or they are out to get me).

I am very loathe to bring mental illness into the equation as I don't feel there is the association that many think there is. There is a vast difference between someone who is mentally ill believing in conspiracy and someone who believes in a conspiracy because they are mentally ill. I would also hazard that there are equal numbers of debunkers and theorists that present with an illness anyway.

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True, it's like with intelligence and education - there are lots of people who lack both, and are not into conspiracy theories. And conversely there are lots of conspiracy theorists with college degrees and high IQs.

The reason I was asking was because I think it's a factor in how you converse with people. Its important to understand people as much as possible. There's a difference between how you talk to someone you simply think is a bit touched, and how you talk to someone who has a history of particular types of delusions or paranoia, or even just phobias or OCD.

It's a sensitive subject though, not something I like to bring up in general as it is so easily misconstrued. Here I was specifically responding to Joseph bring it up in relation to one person, and I wanted to clarify what he meant.