Which one is it? Is abuse allowed, in which case I should be permitted to share my personal evaluation of ODH, or is abuse prohibited?

In my opinion it should be the latter, we should be able to maintain an intelligent, reasoned, evidence-based discussion and even in the (almost inevitable) absence of consensus it shouldn't become necessary or be considered appropriate to engage in personal attacks.

On 20/08/2010 MonkeyBoy wrote:>Just to redirect this conversation a little - with the removal of the old>bols what are peoples views on the neatest and most widely accepted ways>of removing the old carots ?

A few options here Owen as far as the actual removal. You can make yourself a carrot killer device (I think there's some discussion in the safercliffs pages and on qurank), I've had pretty good success with a large wrecking bar ground to fit snugly under the head of the carrot, sometimes a twist with a spanner will be enough on it's own.

All of these methods are not 100% guaranteed, particularly when you're dealing with old rusty bolts. Some percentage (maybe 15-40%) will shear off at about rock level because the rust is always worst at this point.

I've probably had the most success with the combination of a single hex socket on a breaker bar followed by the modified wrecking bar, try to rotate the bolt to break the 'bond' between the rust and the rock. Once it moves (or if it feels like the head might twist off before it does) then try prying it straight outwards with the wrecking bar.

Then patch the holes, if you're doing bolting, then an epoxy dirt mixture is excellent. Otherwise selleys kneed-it and dirt is a good option.

Might be a bit of an unusual response from me, as I normally am pretty pro-bolting, but I would personally support removing all the bolts from Lindfield.
I've never thought of it as a toproping crag...I've allways just climbed up, and backed off if I got scared. I allways thought that was part of the idea with Lindfield.
The rock is pretty solid, and the landings are (relatively) good, and the walls quite short. Shouldn't Lindfield be a no-bolt crag?

Some well-disguised rings at the top of the cliff won't bother the boulderers falling off at the bottom. And boulderers aren't the only ones using the place. I learned to climb at Lindfield before there were gyms, and before they let us loose on the crags in the blueys. It's a great place to learn and practice skills we need to get up and down cliffs safely. It's a great place to take friends whose only exposure to climbing is plastic holds and factory complexes before committing them to bigger routes in the mountains. It's a great place to take small kids, who have great fun on the end of a rope -- all of which is easier and safer with appropriate rigging gear. That's why the carrots are there in the first place: the original bolters used the best technology available to them at the time, which is what we should do too.

On 20/08/2010 mikllaw wrote:>I think it needs anchors; Bryden said that "It's too short to climb and>too high to boulder".

True, but that was the technology of the day. These days, Lindfield is a pretty straightforward "highball boulder" crag. Boulder mats have been the technology development of the noughties, and I wonder whether Lindfield is one place where they are more appropriate than bolted anchors? (Just my opinion, I'm happy for others to disagree).

>All of these methods are not 100% guaranteed, particularly when you're>dealing with old rusty bolts. Some percentage (maybe 15-40%) will shear>off at about rock level because the rust is always worst at this point.>
Whoops, my fingers must have slipped on the keyboard. I meant to say, "Wow, you have dazzled me with your bolting knowledge and statistical wizardry."

OHD - last warning for the time out room. Please amend your comments so i don't have to... You know the rules, if you can't play nice then you won't be allowed to play.

On 20/08/2010 one day hero wrote:>On 20/08/2010 hotgemini wrote:>>>All of these methods are not 100% guaranteed, particularly when you're>>dealing with old rusty bolts. Some percentage (maybe 15-40%) will shear>>off at about rock level because the rust is always worst at this point.>>>Ha ha ha! 15-40% will shear off, 38% will be prepared to pay exta for>quality toilet tissue, 10% believe that Obama is muslim, and the rest of>the bolts think your statistics come directly from your bunghole

On 20/08/2010 dalai wrote:>OHD - last warning for the time out room. Please amend your comments so>i don't have to... You know the rules, if you can't play nice then you>won't be allowed to play.>>On 20/08/2010 one day hero wrote:>>On 20/08/2010 hotgemini wrote:>>>>>All of these methods are not 100% guaranteed, particularly when you're>>>dealing with old rusty bolts. Some percentage (maybe 15-40%) will shear>>>off at about rock level because the rust is always worst at this point.>>>>>Ha ha ha! 15-40% will shear off, 38% will be prepared to pay exta for>>quality toilet tissue, 10% believe that Obama is muslim, and the rest>of>>the bolts think your statistics come directly from your bunghole

I think ODH is making a rather legitimate reference to the seminal Beavis and Butthead episode, " Vaya Cornholio."

I do wonder about the mentality and motivations behind such comments. You don't need to try to convince anybody that you have balls ... I assume you do. Why bother with such an area ? Leave Lindfield alone.

The bolts at Lindfield are almost invisible and certainly not visible to rangers or walkers. The only area that really needs TR bolts is the Overhang. The bolts here can't even be seen by climbers, without a scramble up the back to the top ... not something rangers would ever do. It has fairly easy routes but a fall could easily mean death, even with a good mat. Other routes can be TR'd easily without bolts if the climber feels the need.

Its one of the few places that I think glue in carrots could be good idea. It is for a climber of historical value, it is a great beginners crag and demonstrating carrots to beginners is good. No carrots and you will just have to hit them with the stick.

I like the rusty old bolts at the top of the crag. The original photo of the bolt on the boulder where someone bolted on a hold with contact info to sell them would be the only bolt on the place I reckon should be removed. Even then its a museum....

I was there one day a few years ago and some dick was running a rope access course there. I told him he was a dick. He commented something along the lines I had no right to tell him to f--- off. I pointed out setting anchors high on trees on four cracks wall was a bad thing and the top of the crag was trashed and he wasn't making it better.

I got the shits and went to pipe dreams and walked the tunnel out to slade avenue back to the station. My empties may not of made it to the bin if I'd walked past him again.

I'm all for the pad revolution. I'm a bit of an anti abseiler group nazi (although I was introduced to climbing and abseiling in a group at lindfield) they have there place and do good things but should leave established areas alone. I remember seeing the bolt atop frankenstien at the fear factory and going wtf. Its a modern bouldering area. Pad land. Lindfield isn't.

I took some people out there today, a fairly mixed bag of experience- some people were experienced boulderers that knew the crag backwards, and some that had never been on rock before at all. While there, we saw some other people using the spot- walkers, abseilers, along with other boulderers.

I think the key points that have been made in this debate is some people don't see the need, some people want it left clean, and some people want something there. Maybe we should put it to poll?

However, we can all rant and rave at each other until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day the person making the decision will be the person that goes and bolts it. I just hope when (if?) that happens, that person does a good job, with a mind to how the crag will be used.

Abseilers DO come here, and the trees are pretty ringbarked as a result. Absolute beginners DO get bought here, and slips and falls are common, quite often onto bad landings, from height. It would also be nice to be able to show them the correct way to anchor, simply. Walkers RARELY use the top of the cliff, the path goes along the base. Boulderers DON'T HAVE to use any protection that may or may not be put in. But there IS protection there, and it is below par.

But as I say, the decisions (where, what) are made by the person who picks up the drill and heads over there. If someone experienced doesn't do it, someone else will, possibly with much less consideration.

Might not have to worry about it soon: visited Wahroonga rocks this afternoon to find the top of the cliff perimeter fenced -- gal posts and thick chain, obviously designed by a crack team of lawyers and accountants -- destroying a relatively pleasant bush setting. On the plus side, there are anchors every few metres along the cliff. Wahroonga rocks are similar to Lindfield rocks in that they're near sporting ovals, and kids wander off from fixtures.

On 29/08/2010 rodw wrote:>..the difference being wahroonga rocks are shit to climb on.....didnt some>kid bail off that cliff last year?

... another difference being they're 3 minutes from my house, and I prefer climbing outside on rock than inside in a climbing gym. There are actually some interesting routes at Wahroonga. It's not Lindfield or Berowra, but it's convenient and it gets me out of the house. Hadn't heard about the kid; it's sad if it's true.