Regional differences in opinion on desegregation

Brown says that her upbringing in Kentucky gave her a more moderate view of desegregation than she might have acquired in Birmingham. While she recalls segregation and bigotry in Kentucky, when she arrived in Birmingham, she encountered a different atmosphere.

Citing this Excerpt

Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Brown, June 17, 2005. Interview U-0019. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Full Text of the Excerpt

KIMBERLY HILL:

We're going to start by talking about your growing up years and how you
became a teacher and how you came to Birmingham.

ELIZABETH BROWN:

Well, I grew up in Kentucky, and I think being in Kentucky I was a
little more moderate regarding integration and desegregation than I
would've been if I had been born down here. The other thing that I grew
up in a Catholic school, going to a Catholic school, grade school and
high school, and many of the sisters that were, that taught me were from
Massachusetts even though it was a Kentucky order. So they would have
had different ideas that they would maybe come across in the classroom.
They didn't deliberately preach that segregation was wrong or anything,
but they were very careful to give us a positive view of it. The church
that I went to always had people of African American descent in it. Now
sometimes they didn't go to our schools because I got
the idea they were sort of rural people, and sometimes they had a
difficulty with transportation, and at the time it was really also
against the law. Probably against the law of the churches too but we
never knew about it and accepted it. They always had a couple of pews in
the back said something like colored only, and the priest would
regularly have to tell the white people to stop sitting there because in
all Catholic churches the last two or three pews were the most favorite
ones. They would have to sit outside their pews. But I guess I was
always aware of those kinds of things. So it wasn't that big of a deal
to me. It's sort of odd. My father seemed by today's standards to be
very bigoted but his two best friends were, one was a kid that he grew
up with and would come back and see him regularly, and the thing I most
remember about him is big, black man. Daddy was about five-six, five,
not much bigger than that. I was taller than he when I grew up, and this
man it seemed to me like six-two or six-three and really big like he
could be a professional tackle in my eyes. I'd hear Daddy say there's
old Theoto, and he would come and visit with him any time he came back
to Kentucky. So we could see the affection between them, and I also
began to realize when I was an adult that Daddy would make all these
racist statements to get a rise out of us as kids. Like one time he
said, "Yeah, Theoto thinks he's as good as any white
person." My older sister said, "Well, isn't
he?" He talked for a few minutes and he said,
"Actually he's better than most white people." But we
began realizing he was saying all these statements that were just to
make us upset because he was a big tease in that way. But so, he really
didn't like integration. To me it was sort of funny in some ways because
in Kentucky we lived on the Ohio River, and the Ohio River was totally
integrated. The people standing on the bank fishing and off the dam,
they would stand off the dam. I don't remember how
that worked, but they could fish there. They were totally integrated,
and then they would separate and go their own ways. But when I came down
here, it was very different atmosphere. But at John Carroll again I
don't know why, but most of the faculty was not that prejudiced. I'm
sure some of them were but even before integration, and so they were,
you would never hear someone use a racial slur or anything like that.
Some of us were just absolutely very much on the, we would consider the
raving liberal side of what they would consider that. So I think I
mentioned earlier that one of my friends came back to school a couple of
years after she had left, and one of the teachers it was right before
the integration. She was amazed in the faculty room how we were making
fun of George Wallace and all his campaign, throwing the gauntlet down.
We would exaggerate his "Segregation Now. Segregation
Forever." We would all those phrases that he would just say we
were making fun of and laughing about, and she told us later she said,
"I was glad to come to Carroll because you, you don't realize
it, but you all are raving idiots, not idiots, but raving liberals. You
just don't know how liberal you all are." I said,
"Really. You mean the other schools don't do that."
She said, "No. They're just all against it and all
that." But-

KIMBERLY HILL:

Do you think people thought you were idiots too?

ELIZABETH BROWN:

Probably. I don't think they really did. No one cared about us except
the Catholics probably were, I didn't hear too many sermons about it but
I did hear a couple in the church that he sort of edged on it about
people not treating other people [right]. Everybody knew who he was
talking about, not treating other people like they should and so on.
Many of the priests down here were Irish. They weren't getting enough
native vocations and about half of the diocese, diocese and priests were
Irish. So they had a whole different aspect and mind
frame than perhaps some of the people did. Well, when integration was
coming, the first year that the public schools integrated we had already
met our maximum population. For some reason, I can't remember exactly
why, but a thousand was the maximum that the school could hold, and if
you had 1001, the accrediting societies would make you add more
restrooms and more water fountains and more this and more that. So we
were right at 998, and the next year, the public schools had a really
difficult time integrating at that time. Kids were walking out and
striking and all this foolishness going on. The next year we did
integrate with four students, and I'm sure they were chosen to be
success-. I think they interviewed them and sort of prepared
them for whatever and made sure they were the kind of student that would
be a success at Carroll to make sure that there wasn't any reason for
any of the white kids to complain or their parents to complain. There
were two boys and two girls.

KIMBERLY HILL:

Was that in terms of academic success?

ELIZABETH BROWN:

I think probably academic and refined and social and whatever. I'm not
sure of the categories. I do remember, sort of remember someone saying
they told them that they could go to any function, of course as a
student, but they asked if they went to a dance not to try to dance with
the white kids.