On Testimony: The Foundation Of Faith- Part 1

This is part one of a two part post on Testimony. Part two will be an autobiographical testimony of how I left the faith and became an atheist.

On Testimony

If there is one thing I am addicted to from my years of being a Christian, it is testimony. The church I attended loved testimony. Every week, a member of our congregation would stand before the whole church and bare their soul, witnessing to the glory of Christ.

To this day, every time I wander onto a Christian blog, the first thing I look for is ” The Testimony”. I naively keep expecting that I’ll find something different; yet I always am let down to find that testimony is a formula, everyone takes the same road to Christ. Testimony is a relatively new invention in the church. Years ago, everyone was a Lutheran because their parents were Lutheran. Everyone was a

This is exactly like my old church....well almost.

Christian because they were expected to be a Christian. To testify would be to express the concept that there is a choice- that faith was an option chosen among alternatives. In a global society, one with innumerable denominations and Gods and philosophies, testimony is a way to acknowledge a thought process that winnowed down all those options to a resolute belief.

My obsession with testimony is as much a product of the necessity of it as the logic of it. The renaissance value of knowledge was a latecomer to the Christian Chastity Ball, but when it came it asked us all to dance with the scientific method. It changed the sullen duty of stepping to the waltz into a Sadie Hawkins affair. The problem is that nothing really changed. We all claim that we danced with the debutante, when we all were leaning on the walls.

Just once I would like to hear someone testify that they were born into the faith. That they resolutely held to its values because it was all they ever knew. I’d love to hear that they had doubts, yes, but never bothered to follow them further than a quick reference to scripture. They have been fulfilled in their life and chose to stay the course. I want to hear that they never really questioned the word of God and here is why.

Why does doubt have to figure so powerfully in testimony? Why must everyone come to Christ through a dark and lonely path? Why must we all see the depths of “rock-bottom” before finally being lifted to His side? Just once I would like to hear an honest testimony. A personal testimony. It is as though there is a script that we all must follow to get to His glory. Almost to a one, every Christian I know has been one since childhood, we all went to school together, we talked, we were friends. If I am to believe the testimony, I have to admit that I was woefully ignorant to the challenges my friends faced in their walk with Jesus.

From testimony, I know this:

Almost every Christian has been an atheist, or flirted with Wicca, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Paganism. Every single one has doubted enough to abandon the faith for some alternate philosophical possibility.

Virtually every one of these people has felt entirely unfulfilled by any other way of thinking, as though there really was no merit to any other option.

Each of these people has been overcome by the temptations of a material world, they made bad choices: drugs, sex, lack of self-respect. They have seen the dark side, they have let it take hold of them.

Most received a personal message from Jesus that led them right to the church that either their close friends attend or they were born into but left.

This process led to them accepting Jesus into their lives, and they live happily ever after. (Mostly)

The problem I have is that I have evidence that suggests that this never really happened. Some might surely be drawn from experience, but much is hyperbole. If my Christian friends wavered in the faith, they certainly never let on to me. If they were reading books on Wicca, or Satanism, or Hare Krishna sometime between Sunday Service, Harp and Bowl, and Youth Group, then they managed the devilish details quite well. I never had a clue.

So when I was called on to give my testimony, I tried desperately to duck out. I had never really given other faiths a fair shot, I led a

Is the question "Why does no-one in my church listen to me?"? Then yes.

pretty blessed life, I was comfortable with my God. I had doubts from time to time, to be sure, but I never followed them further than a reassuring passage from the bible. My favorite passage, the one that I turned to most frequently, was Job 5:17- “Blessed are those whom God corrects; so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.” I never really thought of adversity as a bad thing. I was decidedly not a Christian worthy of testimony. When it came time to face the music though, I read the lyrics all the same. It ate at me. It was the first step toward the end of my faith.

What captured my imagination about testimony as a Christian was listening to how other people had made the mistakes so that I didn’t have to. What captures my imagination now is what testimony says about Christians in general. They are either worlds away from the faith I witnessed in my youth or they are that scared twenty-two year old boy rehashing hyperbole to make everyone happy. I don’t really care which one they are. I’m so divorced from both now that all I can muster is self-satisfied curiosity.

17 Responses to “On Testimony: The Foundation Of Faith- Part 1”

Testimony is highly important in the modern evangelical Christian movement (Well, I say “modern”, even though my last personal involvement in it was over fifteen years ago). You’re right though: it evolved from what may have originally began as legitimate explanation of how one came to Christ into what is basically little more than self-deluded theatrics.
Much like presuppositional apologetics, its main power is in convincing the already converted to stay within the fold. The more outlandish and ridiculous you can make your former, unsaved life, the greater the fear of the “other” is created in the mind of Christians. In a proper testimony, getting a contact high by hanging out with guys that hotboxed a Chevy Sprint morphs into experimenting with hardcore drugs; standard teenage fixation with the opposite sex and a ten-minute makeout session with your best friend’s relatively attractive sister becomes an addition to sex; reading a Harry Potter novel or catching a few episodes of Ghost Hunters becomes an unhealthy obsession with the occult. The most mundane experiences in the non-Christian culture that surrounds the church become soul-crushing reminders of how Satan has blinded the unsaved.
Thus, we wind up with outlandish stories of how Kirk Cameron was a “fundamentalist atheist, Christine O’Donnell “dabbled in the occult”, etc. Utterly unconvincing to non-Christians, but extremely motivating to the Jesus freaks.
It’s easy to turn a zealous Christian into a Liar For Jesus, and overstating testimony is one of the methods used to help train converts to slowly learn the trade.

“It is as though there is a script that we all must follow to get to His glory.”

I think you’re on to something here. Most evangelical testimonies ARE a scripted performance, in that they frame what Christian faith is supposed to look like for believers. In a sense, it helps foster conformity and uniformity within evangelical churches.

Was never called upon to give testimony either, though I’m not even sure the Catholic church does that. Then again, I pretty much stopped going to church as soon as mom and dad realized I was expressly uncomfortable going there every Sunday. That is, shortly after my confirmation. About the same time I graduated from Sunday school.

But yeah. It was never a conscious decision to be faithful. It was enculturated in me from an early age. And I am happy that I left the faith after I started questioning its untenable and unevidenced premises. All I want from my internet heathenism is to plant the seed of doubt in religious folks minds — not to poison them against religion, but to cause them to examine why they have faith to begin with. The fact that so many people are forced into lying for the greater glory of Jesus tells me that maybe I don’t have to try so hard. Maybe people will realize on their own — like you did, George — that if they have to lie to glorify their deity, it might be worth examining closer after all.

Likely not Jason, it took me a while after that to get off the bandwagon. I just did what I did best at the time….rationalize the whole thing away. The problem is that if you keep your back turned too long, Truth has a way of sneaking up behind you and kicking you in the taint. When that happens you either get up and face the problem or double down and become an internet troll.

[…] be a my attempt to give a step-by-step progression from religion to atheism. I mentioned in my previous post that I find Christian testimony formulaic and/or dishonest, yet I still find the hyperbole […]

I really liked this post George. It made me think about my own “testimony.” I can honestly say that I have never doubted God’s existence, but I also have to admit that I was so brainwashed on many matters that I was too brain dead to question things I should have. I have been somewhat embarrassed over the past couple years at just how brain dead I’ve been most of my life, not allowing certain questions to come to the surface–questions that really needed to surface. It was my husband that taught me to pay attention to the questions, and to give myself permission to ask them and to fully feel the frustration of some of them. He really modeled for me how to begin think for myself, and all that time I thought I was thinking for myself!

I have a long way to go in asking questions, but there is only so much time in a day. I have a lot of time to make up.

I will say though that I have experienced many things throughout my life that leave me unable to doubt in a God. I guess that is my testimony. :)

Julie,
Wouldn’t it be great to hear a testimony that talked about coming to God in a state of peace? “These are all the great blessings that have led me to God” Instead of “I turned to Him in my darkest hour”. Why does everything have to be trial by fire?

I think it’s all a lot more complicated than summing it up like that, as one would expect from a relationship with anyone. It is full of both light and dark experiences, peace and turmoil. Where it gets to be
“testimonialish” is in the fact that one is taught to focus on how your life has changed when sharing your testimony with “unbelievers.” As you are already familiar, it’s sort of the big summary on why anyone else might be drawn.

I think every story is so different, and they are not all a big “coming to Jesus” transformation. Most of my early experience was just simple belief with no big sins and no big miracles. As I got deeper into Christianity, this made for a difficult time in coming up with any kind of testimony. It was pretty comical as I think back…I felt like an outsider this way and always hoped nobody would ask my testimony because there wasn’t really much to say. LOL.

I will admit in the early days, there was a lot of fear too (I grew up in a very hell-fire-lose-your-salvation preaching church). But looking back now as a person who no longer believes in hell, I can still see in my early childhood experience something more real than fear keeping me in belief.

Your final statement is one of the chief issues with the current world: everyone looks to their own self-satisfaction as if the universe, made up of its 35,000,000,000 galaxies, revolves around them individually as if each of us deserves any sort of respect or is deserving of anything this world has to offer. Well, friend, sorry to say but the universe doesn’t revolve around you. In fact, it doesn’t even know you.

It’s too bad that the power of the gospel has been lost on you, that it never reached you, never penetrated your soul. It would have had you let it, instead–and this is not meant to condemn because I understand most people born in Western culture these days, especially those who are easily identified as lost in their own selfishness, are constantly focused on their own desires, wants, needs, et al–your one of the enlightened creations apparently who seem to know more than the creator does. Where else but in humanity do we find creations claiming to be higher than or know more than the creator?! Talk about egos! Wow.

There really is nothing all that amazing that personal testimonies are similar, at least if you knew anything about the Bible. We’re all born with sinful hearts, we choose our own way (human nature), eventually (if we’re lucky) we die to self, allow God to find us (it’s a misnomer to think we find God for He’s always at work within us; we just have to invite Him and listen to Him, something our selfish egos find hard to do. Obviously, it’s much easier to justify our own selfishness, much as you’re trying to do, than to give it up altogether), accept the ransom Christ paid for our sins, and thereby die to the carnal world and find rebirth in Christianity.

It’s terribly unfortunate that you, and those who’ve agreed with your post, don’t understand the power of the gospel. But there’s definitely still time. Frankly–and, yes, I, too, at one point was close to atheism (more along the lines of a Deist) and studied philosophy in college and grad. school–the fact is that nothing makes more sense than Christianity, but that’s another diatribe altogether that I won’t get into now. I’ll pray for you, though, and hope you finally see beyond your own selfish ego and realize there’s a better way to be aligned with the universe and its creator, a way that, for those who are actually Christians (defined by those who allow sanctification to happen rather than simply calling themselves such and doing nothing more than attending weekly Sunday services) can find harmony with nature and with God, as well as satisfaction, joy, peace, and happiness.

The only thing amazing about the similarities in Christian testimonies is that there is actually a God who could love us and would even want a relationship with we who are broken, sinful in thought, action, and attitude, and who constantly focus on ourselves rather than others. He Has forgiven me and He’s promised He’ll forgive all who come to Him and ask. His word is true whether you realize it or not.

This is a call for anyone out there who would like to discuss this further to email me. I’ll be glad to do what I can to allow the Holy Spirit to work through me in providing His message to you.

What’s more amazing: the similarities found in Christian testimonies or the truth found in the Bible? Does the following sound like an era with which you’re very well familiar?

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers (liars), without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty (arrogant), lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power (2 Tim 3:1-5)

Chris,
That was a very spirited comment.
Like virtually every Christian I have ever spoken to, you are quick to make assumptions as to why I am an atheist. I would never be so presumptuous as to tell you why you are a Christian, in fact I took great pains in this post to show that my issues with Christian testimony lie in the fact that they are so similar to each other, when I know from experience that professing Christians have an amazing array of ways that they come to Christ.
That you believe that selfish self-interest is the only reason for atheism betrays an ignorance and proves that even if you are speaking with atheists, you are certainly not listening to them. You are presupposing many things about my character that you have no knowledge from which to presuppose. This I think shows the burden of proof that many Christians hold their beliefs to. If you are willing to take the word “atheist” and from it tell me everything I am blissfully unaware of about myself, then you are working off of stereotypes and incomplete logic. This can’t help but be a detriment when you then claim to have any truth to share.

When I make claims about someones character, I back it up with more than a single word. Likewise when I make a claim about the existence of God, I back it up with enough evidence that I can reasonably defend my position.

You have faith that as an atheist, I am a selfish, self-serving, self-important, hedonistic person who believes things on convenience. You will have a hard time elevating faith to fact if you remain incapable of doing anything better than telling someone how you believe they think. You will at least get the opportunity to learn something with my next post. Check back soon!

As one of the resident trolls here, I hope you don’t mind if I jump in to offer my own response to your comment. Mind you, it’s not like you could stop me if you wanted to!

“…everyone looks to their own self-satisfaction as if the universe, made up of its 35,000,000,000 galaxies, revolves around them individually as if each of us deserves any sort of respect or is deserving of anything this world has to offer. Well, friend, sorry to say but the universe doesn’t revolve around you. In fact, it doesn’t even know you.”

I hate to burst your bubble, but it generally isn’t the atheists that think they hold some special, elevated position within the universe. When I’m with members of my family watching How The Universe Works, Hubble’s Canvas, or a Nova show on galaxies, physics, the size of stars, etc, it sure isn’t the unbelievers saying “I can’t believe this was all made for us!” Whereas, most atheists I know are pretty cognizant of the fact that this universe is 99.99999999+ percent uninhabitable by humans, and that the only reason we exist is because of the three billion years of painful, violent, existence that life on this space rock has clawed from its environment.

Ever heard of Tim Minchin? The final line of his song Confessions” states “…We’re all fucking monkeys in shoes.” Do you know how much that one line would irritate pretty much every Christian I’ve ever known?

Atheists also don’t think that some benevolent force will bend the laws of the universe (ironically enough, those same forces created by that “law-giver” in the first place) if they clasp their hands together and wish reeeeeally hard.

In short, I think you’ve provided us with an excellent example of what psychologists call “projection”, my friend.

It’s too bad that the power of the gospel has been lost on you, that it never reached you, never penetrated your soul. It would have had you let it…

Yes, of course. It couldn’t be the fault of the omnipotent, all-knowing, ever-present creator that a nonbeliever can’t seem to find any evidence of the his existence. It’s gotta be the fault of the atheist, because he didn’t keep lifting up all those heavy rocks in the vain hope he’ll eventually find the one stone that Jesus was hiding underneath.

Where else but in humanity do we find creations claiming to be higher than or know more than the creator?! Talk about egos! Wow.

Here you give us a classic example of a Christian beating a strawman. At no point in the post you’ve commented on has George stated that he knows more than the Christian’s invisible friend (although there may be a case to be made that George may feel he has better morales than the Old Testament YHWH). I also noticed the clever final sentence that returns to the earlier projection of the Christian’s elevated mindset of their place in the universe onto George.

There really is nothing all that amazing that personal testimonies are similar, at least if you knew anything about the Bible.

Did you even read George’s post? He gave some very good reasons why he felt that Christian testimonies are all so similar. I’d love to see you actually rebut his ideas instead of just assert that testimonies are the same because we’re all just dirty sinners.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I never realized that such a huge swath of the population were a bunch of alcoholic, drug abusing, former satanist, near-prostitutes that purposely ran down kittens and kids in crosswalks with their cars, until I attended a prayer meeting in which all the participants had to give a quick testimony on how they came to Christ.

It’s terribly unfortunate that you, and those who’ve agreed with your post, don’t understand the power of the gospel.

Thanks for letting us know what we think. Care to actually point out where we’re wrong instead of gifting us one more example of the courtier’s reply?

I’ll pray for you, though

Thanks, nobody’s ever done THAT for us before. Maybe yours will be the prayer that convinces your god to soften our hearts (or makes him decide to harden our hearts further, like he did with Pharoah.)

The only thing amazing about the similarities in Christian testimonies is that there is actually a God who could love us and would even want a relationship with we who are broken, sinful in thought, action, and attitude, and who constantly focus on ourselves rather than others.

Yeah, who’d ever think that any human could be worthy of love? I know I can’t stand my sinner of a wife. She’s just lucky that I let her live in the house I provide while I’m focused so much on my hedonistic lifestyle. Also, my four year old nephew is such a little sinful twerp with a disobedient attitude, I can’t bring myself to love the little bastard. It’s a good thing his parents focus only on themselves and don’t spend any time providing for his needs, because his transgressions prove that he doesn’t deserve a relationship with them anyways.

Seriously, you need to stop focusing on the Bible, that book of death where the main antagonist spends way too much time worrying about what people are doing with their genitals, and where he’s willing to wipe out entire populations for wearing a cotton/polyester blend t-shirt. It’s giving you a warped sense of humanity. I get it that people can be evil and capricious, but they can also be kind and welcoming. To focus on either the good or evil of man alone is to ignore half of human existence.

This is a call for anyone out there who would like to discuss this further to email me.

So was this just a drive-by? Are you not coming back to defend or offer further insights? Did I waste my time responding to you at all? Dammit, this always happens when I spend a lot of time crafting a snark-filled response!

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come…

Yeah, as former Christians we’ve had that scripture cherry-picked for us a bunch of times. My one question: how are those human traits different than any OTHER time in history? Every religion has experienced their unbelievers and blasphemers; teenagers have always rebelled against their parents; and what the heck does “having a form of godliness” even mean?

I’d really like to hear your diatribe about why you feel “the fact is that nothing makes more sense than Christianity.” Because posting here, you’re talking to at least two people that used to feel that way, but changed their minds with further evidence (or rather, persistent incapability to deny the reality that there was no evidence to support our Christian viewpoint).

Sinned,
Thank you for that. I’ve taken to being charitable to commenters, even when they deserve none of it.
Sometimes I feel completely ball-less as I write.
This blog needs some balls- I’m glad they were yours.
God that sounds gay.
P.S.- You can tell how genuine he is about reaching out to “anyone out there who would like to discuss this further” by the fact that he didn’t provide an e-mail address. I have one for him though, if you would like me to forward any message.

It’s your blog, and usually if you want to stretch out a conversation you wind up being forced to grant self-righteous morons the respect they so rarely are willing to give back. This is why I only got a couple of posts into the Jamie Funk fight last summer before he stopped posting at my site and wiped my comments (and his own satisfyingly angry responses to me) on his own blog.

I don’t mind you making gay-sounding compliments, so long as you’re not actually hitting on me. Even then, I’d have to say “thanks, but I’m a happily married man.”

As for Chris’ email address, I think I’ll give it a day or two to let him post back here before I’d consider chasing after him.

At no point in the post you’ve commented on has George stated that he knows more than the Christian’s invisible friend (although there may be a case to be made that George may feel he has better morales than the Old Testament YHWH). I also noticed the clever final sentence that returns to the earlier projection of the Christian’s elevated mindset of their place in the universe onto George.

Quoted for truth.

Where else but in humanity do you find creatures with such egos as to think they understand exactly how everything came to be, and that that “how” entails a personal creator that wants to be your best friend and will condemn you to an eternity of torture if you don’t believe the hearsay that some other humans pour into your ear?

Enjoying these comments from a completely different viewpoint. On one hand we’ve got the typical Christian psychobabble that completely and unknowingly distorts the character, purpose, and intent of God based on 2000 years of mere traditions of men AND prolific Bible translation errors (guess in a way you can’t fault him for that if he is totally unaware of them).

On the other hand you’ve got the deserved and legitimate responses to those errors. Either way, in my opinion, neither side is actually speaking of God, but only of the phantom god who is “all that” that “sinner” pointed out. You are right about that, sinner, who would want to serve a god like that or to be a part of that mindset of his followers?

Chris>> It’s too bad that the power of the gospel has been lost on you, that it never reached you, never penetrated your soul. It would have had you let it…

Here is a classic example. The Gospel is supposed to be “the good news.” If you read it in context, it is supposedly the “good news for all the people.” If that is true, how come the way Christianity preaches it, it is really the BAD BAD news for most people who have ever lived–like those alcoholic, drug abusing, satanist atheists who purposely run down kittens and kids in crosswalks with their cars? Heck, forget those atheists. How come if loving your neighbor is one of the central commands of the NT (by every single writer and speaker) that the gospel of Christians is BAD BAD news for atheists who demonstrate more loving tendencies than their Christian counterparts? I thought I read once “love covers a multitude of sins” and “greater love has no man than this…” It doesn’t say greater love has no believer, or Christian, or Jew…it says “greater love has no human than this, that he lay his life down for his friends.” Laying your life down is not taking a bullet necessarily (although could include that too), it is giving yourself away for the benefit of others. How many Christians are doing that in our world? Many of them are more concerned about their mega-church building fund, retirement fund, or next vacation. You guys are getting me all worked up…lol.

Sinner>> Yes, of course. It couldn’t be the fault of the omnipotent, all-knowing, ever-present creator that a nonbeliever can’t seem to find any evidence of the his existence. It’s gotta be the fault of the atheist, because he didn’t keep lifting up all those heavy rocks in the vain hope he’ll eventually find the one stone that Jesus was hiding underneath.

You are absolutely right. How could a truly loving, FAIR God fault someone for not providing the same belief to them as others? How could He give them a role in the play in order to demonstrate the saving power and goodness of the hero in the story, and then fault them for it? He couldn’t! He wouldn’t! I see one of the biggest problems of all our dead ends on these topics is that somehow we have limited God’s ability and plan to work equitably with all of His creation to this mortal lifetime–another fabulous false tradition of men. I could really expound on this but will save you all the mini-novel.

Sinner>> Where else but in humanity do we find creations claiming to be higher than or know more than the creator?! Talk about egos! Wow.

Sadly, this is what Christianity (as well as many, if not all, other religions) has done. In their false belief and representation of God, they have reduced Him to the limits and insufficiencies of the human ego. Their god is no greater or better than they (or perhaps no greater than Hitler).

Chris>> It’s terribly unfortunate that you, and those who’ve agreed with your post, don’t understand the power of the gospel.

How ironic that even Chris doesn’t understand the power of the gospel (not that he knows what it is). Were he to hear what the gospel truly is, he would probably completely reject the notion because it would insult his ability to be “special” (speaking of egos). Paul speaks quite prolifically about this very thing…that no one is special and that all will be given the same unmerited grace because they are all infinitely worthy to God.

Chris>> The only thing amazing about the similarities in Christian testimonies is that there is actually a God who could love us and would even want a relationship with we who are broken, sinful in thought, action, and attitude, and who constantly focus on ourselves rather than others.

This is such a sad thing Christianity has done by taking away each and every person’s unlimited worth as a divine expressions “out of God” –this is how it is worded in the Greek to show that we are all His very offspring. Even Paul, speaking to the pagan Greeks in Athens (Acts 17) called them offspring of God.

I see it as each person who has ever been born coming together collectively somehow, someday, to fully express the fullness of their Father (just like our children and grandchildren express our DNA). Sure, for some it is not as apparent in this age that they bear holy DNA, perhaps due to life circumstances or location, but that does not take away one bit of the incredible worth each person has. This is why all people are so amazingly gifted and inspired, regardless of religion or region. Christianity has reduced the value of people do dirty, pathetic sinners who are just lucky enough not to burn forever. This is a complete lie, imo.

Sinner>> Yeah, who’d ever think that any human could be worthy of love? I know I can’t stand my sinner of a wife. She’s just lucky that I let her live in the house I provide while I’m focused so much on my hedonistic lifestyle. Also, my four year old nephew is such a little sinful twerp with a disobedient attitude, I can’t bring myself to love the little bastard. It’s a good thing his parents focus only on themselves and don’t spend any time providing for his needs, because his transgressions prove that he doesn’t deserve a relationship with them anyways.

Bingo. This is what Christianity has done to pervert the gospel. Earthly parents love their children more than the “good god” they profess. Now that I see the twisted ideology behind this way of thinking, I would never again serve a god like this myself, though I am not sorry I did. It is all part of my story of learning and developing into a better person.

Sinner>> Did I waste my time responding to you at all? Dammit, this always happens when I spend a lot of time crafting a snark-filled response!

By no means. I absolutely loved and agreed with everything you said. I’m glad you took the time to write, because it further helps me in my own process of getting free of so many of the damaging lies that kept me in unrealized bondage to fear and “unlove” for so many years. Thank you.

My Daily Reads….

Christian Friends of This Blog

Julie Ferwerda-A Personal Friend and Universalist Dan Trabue-Through The Woods- Dan is an Anabaptist, and a great guy. John Barron Jr.- Truth In Religion And Politics-I disagree with almost everything he says. But he argues for it reasonably.