Hello DNC forums, I don't know how to say it other than to post a sample of the conversation. Please understand that I'm asking for help in order to educate, not flame which job is better or worst. Because of the state of the RDM job, several threads have cropped up and now some RDM's believe they can melee and contribute better than a DNC can which is obviously false. I'm at a loss to get though to them so any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Zafire wrote: wrote:

? You didn't even read what I said. Here, let me break it down:

If a RDM/NIN was meleeing, and doing Dia III/haste duties (Something no other job could do effectively, back then, btw), there would be FAR more damage output than if the RDM sat in the backlines and main healed and let the DNC go all-out DD and simply use haste samba/steps

If the DNC is main healing that means he is losing out on Saber Dance (40% DA) and Dancing Edge, but he is still able to swings his daggers effectively. ****, the DNC probably COULD throw in DE's every now and then because of how ridiculously nice Reverse Flourish is when it's merited.

Do you really think 40% DA and Dancing Edge is going to out damage a melee RDM? If you do you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, at all. People around here are saying RDM can do 70-80% of a DD's damage, and have parses to prove that and back it up. If you think Saber Dance and Dancing Edge can out DD a Melee RDM that means you're saying DNC was the best DD in the game back then, which was far from the truth.

This is an example of how informed and hostile the RDM forums can get. Step carefully, it's retarded in there nowadays.

Hyrist wrote:

First off, let's dispense with the idea that a DNC will support Saber Dance 100% of the time while in DD mode. It just doesn't happen realistically. Getting them to do that is a pain in the ***, even if they have solid healing. They want to have their waltes available if sh*t hits the fan. Kind of like how people seem to insist on supporting themselves if they've the ability. (Read: Self Refresh and Sublimation.)

The second issue is Haste Samba and RDM Enspells. They clash. If a RDM is not using EN II then he has to sacrifice one of them. Typically, in high level builds, Haste Samba wins due to the increasing returns on haste. Honestly, Dancer cooperation I believe is the primary reason EN II's only proc on the initial strike. This would be ok if the **** thing would calculate damage on cast and not on strike. But as it stands, it's the best compromise we've got.

Fact: If a RDM is doing less than 40% of a Dancer's output then he's not wearing Melee gear at all, let alone using food. In 75 Parse parties splitting healing duties I was parsing neck and neck with my favorite Dancer. (Incidentally, we were the only two people in the parse at capped Acc.) I probably still have the parse, but it's on my corrupted hard drive. (Just spent $600 upgrading and replacing parts in my computer form what seems to be surge damage, even though its on a surge protector.) I'd have to go digging for it.

DE on Dancer Fails, even at 75. DEx2 < Evis + Pheric Kleios + Darkness(+ Skillchain bonus.) As a RDM/DNC at 80 you can open Darkness for them Twice in a row. (And burst both if you're feeling lucky.) DNC sacrifices TP this way, but considering how fast they build steps (And TP in general.) it's a moot point, you just cover healing till their TP returns to usable levels.

However, due to our slow step building, this situation happens a wide intervals. Between those, you can open for a two-step skill-chain. (Dagger: Evisceration > Dancing Edge > Pheric Kleos. Sword: Death Blossom > Pheric Kleos > Evisceration.) Or open for one Darkness and let them rip out a Dancing Edge on their own. (Haven't decided which one outputs more.)

There's also an issue concerning the matter of Steps. They stack, and there are 4 Kinds now. Depending on the situation, I typically encourage my DNC to focus on Quick Step first (Remember, other party members do not always have cap Acc.) or now, Feather Step (Provided the average party hit rate is high enough.) While I focus on Box Step + DiaII combo. This really helps the party (And now Alliance.) Output as we can focus on stacking the best combination for the other's output. Without me in the front lines the entire group is deprived either 4% hit rate, 5% Defense down, or Critical Hit rate up.

There's no way in **** a Dancer can out-damage herself and a RDM assisting her. Wasn't possible at 75, for **** isn't possible now unless the RDM is meleeing in Errant. The only issue with this combo in bird camps is running out of birds, and that just doesn't happen now in Abyssea.

As far as the bolded bit in the second quote, that seems pretty straightforward, because what it's saying is:

DNC + RDM > DNC + nobody.

Even assuming that the DNC is going from not having to do anything except melee in the situation without the RDM to having to buff the RDM (for some reason) in the situation with the RDM, I'm not sure that would ever decrease the total damage output.

Basically, the only situation that's ever going to fall below a DNC in melee-only mode with nobody else is a DNC supporting someone who's not meleeing.

Zafire, meanwhile, is an idiot for forgetting about Evisceration completely. :-)

And I don't think there really is a need for clarification on job roles...both RDM and DNC support differently and the community as a whole has already defined them to their respective roles. If RDM has a problem with their current state, they shouldn't be pointing the gun at another job just to make themselves look better (which I probably can guess is failing as a whole).

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to see RDM's role be more defined (Played the job for 5 years straight so my opinion is pretty unbiased between the two) but I think it's a bit absurd to see RDMs now targeting DNCs.

Honestly, I avoid topics like this, but I have to say there's a massive lack of focus in the arguments that have been presented. I do not think they understand just how flexible DNC is, nor do I think they understand that our flexibility is constrained to the demands of the party at any given moment. All of this seems grossly ironic when the same thing could be said about RDM.

As Kal said, both jobs have their fortes. I commend these guys for demonstrating that "alternative" approaches work just as well as "standard" approaches and for showing a lot of knowledge about what both jobs can offer, but I am simultaneously bewildered at the ignorance they convey about DNC as well. For example, Dancing Edge on DNC does not fail. The throw-away comment about Saber Dance is aggravating. It's a very powerful tool in the capacity of DDing but also as a way in which TP can be built faster to gain access to our healing abilities. Not using it at all "just in case something goes bad" is ridiculous. You can cancel it.

DNC is not in the same realm as they were prior to the level cap increase and our massive update, and intelligent, effective use of our TP and abilities is never a "sacrifice". Like I've said countless times before, an excellent DNC is a master of reading the flow of a party. If they heal when it's not needed, they're not contributing effectively. If they insist on using TP to DD when people are crying for cures, then they are not contributing effectively. DNC is highly effective at both roles in the right hands when the situation calls for it. The enhancing/debuffing side is a whole other discussion, but it is important to acknowledge that effectiveness in that area is a judgement call also.

I guess I am just bewildered that they seem to be treating a fellow hybrid job (which boasts similar levels of flexibility) with the same scorn as some people have for RDM melee.

Eh, don't be too tough on the red hat chaps. They've had a couple of rough updates. They lost their purpose as fast as dancer found its own.

This seems like the only answer that makes any sense to me. It must be some sort of resentment because RDM was over looked and stuck in development ****. What really concerned me is some fairly knowledgeable RDM's actually believe they could out-parse a DNC all while providing more support.

Many of the pro-melee rdm community oversimplify things. Many of them believe theres basically two classifications of DD theres WAR/MNK/DRK/DRG/SAM and then theres everyone else. The ones that think like that believe that they are on par or better than most of the other classes which is a load of sh*t to be honest. I know melee rdm is actually quite competent but I'll be damned if they could keep up with a thf, dnc, blu, nin, etc...

Being an 82 RDM myself I'm pretty certain that in my best DD/WS gear I've never put out a Death Blossom on an xp mob anywhere NEAR as close to as much dmg as a DE, Evis or PK on my DNC with building flourish up. (the people that got quoted seemed to forget that building flourish even exists) And in fact, if I'm hasting/refrehing people/debuffing, I find that I rarely even get a chance to actually hit the mob between spellcasts. That was the argument wasn't it, that a RDM can melee and outdmg a DNC while still keeping up with his other party duties? Auric/Parazonium +1(2-3 hit version) murders joytoy for TP gain and DoT as well. There might have been some weight to arguments like this BEFORE the last two updates, but DW4 and the new presto pretty much blew them all away and opened up a whole new can of DNC whoopass.

Having both jobs lvled I can honestly say that anyone who thinks a RDM can out DD a DNC now while also keeping up his support role is a complete idiot. It might come somewhat, but not incredibly close if they both focused on only DD, or worked together to SC/MB etc, but seriously, just the sheer amount of TP generation that a DNC/SAM in this day and age with my weapon combo has will just blow anything my RDM could ever put out away. Even if we somehow were evenly matched on WS dmg, or even if DNC were a little behind RDM, the sheer number of WSs I could get out on DNC would kill RDM.

Also, it doesn't take a genius to focus on more than one role for DNC in a pt. You can heal or suport and DD at the same time if you've got half a brain and know how to use your steps, flourishes, and TP. RDM can't do that very well. It takes time to cast spells, and during that time you're not hitting anything. DNC abilities are instant, they barely cut into your TP generation to use if at all. I think this argument is more about RDMs making themselves feel better about everyone and their dog having refresh and convert now and looking for an easy target to take out their frustration on. Someone must have just picked DNC because he knew next to nothing about it except that it kinda sometimes does some of the same stuff RDM does.

Pure damage wise, Building Flourish + Berserk is pretty impressive. DNCs can SC off of eachother easy. One DNC saves 35TP a cycle not having to haste samba. DNCx2 Can easily heal a party; or even trade off Saber Dancing.

If Haste is the deciding factor, throw in a BRD/WHM. There.

Not saying RDM is irrelevant or anything, but DNCx2 is gonna do more damage than DNC + RDM as far as raw damage goes.

Pure damage wise, Building Flourish + Berserk is pretty impressive. DNCs can SC off of eachother easy. One DNC saves 35TP a cycle not having to haste samba. DNCx2 Can easily heal a party; or even trade off Saber Dancing.

If Haste is the deciding factor, throw in a BRD/WHM. There.

Not saying RDM is irrelevant or anything, but DNCx2 is gonna do more damage than DNC + RDM as far as raw damage goes.

Well, yeah, but that wasn't even the question.

The question was "which is better, a DNC doing full melee and a RDM standing in the back, or a DNC doing most of their melee and a RDM meleeing alongside them?" to which the answer is, the vast majority of the time, the second case.

****, the vast majority of the time, a WHM or SMN meleeing alongside the DNC is going to make up for the DNC's lost damage in the same situations.

Yes, two DNCs is probably going to be better - but that's not necessarily going to be available. (And if we're going for "really optimal", just bring a DRG/BLU to have his wyvern main heal and then you don't even have to waste TP healing people.)

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EDIT: What the ****, I'll provide example numbers for why I'm saying what I am.

Let's say you're running four melees (including the DNC) who are splitting damage evenly, a BRD, and a RDM. We'll say that the RDM has absolutely atrocious melee gear (but at least has the brains to not melee in Errant) and can do half the damage of the DNC, but thereby drops the DNC's damage by 20%.

uuuuuh, I don't think admitting that you're making up numbers off the top of your head actually counts as a legitimate argumentative tactic.

I understand conceptually the "support DNC + melee RDM > pure melee DNC" argument, but I think the flaw in it is that the DNC is doing the healing instead of the RDM. If the RDM can keep up on all their duties and still get in a few sword swings, well that's a-okay with me. But I'm not sure why the RDM gets to get all swordchucky while the DNC is expected to spend TP on healing waltz.

uuuuuh, I don't think admitting that you're making up numbers off the top of your head actually counts as a legitimate argumentative tactic.

Sure it does, in that it's a "here's the basic framework of the argument" method.

Basically, the conclusion you're supposed to come to - which should be obvious - is that as long as the reduction in the DNC's damage is less than the amount of damage the RDM's doing, you get more total damage.

But I'm not sure why the RDM gets to get all swordchucky while the DNC is expected to spend TP on healing waltz.

So, in simplified form, the real question is, "Can a RDM do enough damage in the time it takes to otherwise handle curing duties to justify the DNC spending the TP on curing that could otherwise be used for a WS?" Am I following correctly?

And I have a hard time seeing that answer being 'yes'. Cures take more time than a waltz, that's undeniable -- but unless an RDM's WS is doing 4-5x what the DNC is doing ... I just don't see it.

I have no problems with RDM melee -- ****, I'd encourage any RDM that WANTS to melee to do so.

Last question on this and I'll leave it be. Do you guys feel that a pimped out DNC at Lv75 would easily defeat a pimped RDM at the 75 cap? I'm conflicted on this myself so I'm asking you guys. The off-hit Joyeuse for you guys at 75 wasn't the best. I agree at Lv85 DNC totally demolishes RDM and is a huge contender to all DD's.

Why does it matter? I mean in YOUR thread on the RDM forum its been nothing but QQ but why does it matter? Why bring it to the DNC forum. If you are concerned with what is going to happen to RDM why not ask them this question.

So you guys have no ambition to learn how to nuke too do you?

Until a DNC can fire off nukes, why does what the damage difference between a RDM and DNC matter at all to anyone? A DNC should be able to out damage a melee RDM, their whole job is designed around hitting the mob. I fail to see any purpose in this thread other than an attempt to start an inter-forum flame war.

DNC/w.e+RDM/w.e+COR/w.e is still the best support combo you can get, so why does it matter where the pieces sit on the chess board or in what order. Is -30% DEF any less if the combined amount comes from them all front lining and using various abilities, or if the RDM is backlining it. It makes no difference.

Support jobs always get better the more you add (until you cap out) Ideally RDM+DNC+COR+BRD+DD/SAM+DD/SAM would be the ideal crazy DD party, but in order for it to reach max potential you require the RDM to contribute offensively. But does it matter, how often have you been in a super party, me only 3 times, and its because I built them myself.

Fact of the matter is, you got flamed out of YOUR thread, and brought it here to try and save some face, and secondly, nobody really cares, because we know the answer, and know you know the answer too.

Last question on this and I'll leave it be. Do you guys feel that a pimped out DNC at Lv75 would easily defeat a pimped RDM at the 75 cap? I'm conflicted on this myself so I'm asking you guys. The off-hit Joyeuse for you guys at 75 wasn't the best. I agree at Lv85 DNC totally demolishes RDM and is a huge contender to all DD's.

A pimped out dnc at 75 would destroy a pimped out rdm. I have both of them at 75 right now and both of them are actually top geared for the most part. Before 75 and all the crazy merits dnc gets, I would say rdm could potentially win. But at 75 its not even really that close. I find that people largely underrate dnc overall.

Until recently (last year or so-ish) it was impossible to really pimp out a DNC no matter how hard you tried. I remember when I hit 75 on DNC when the job was new. My "endgame" gear consisted of a crappy crafted dagger, joyeuse (which was questionable anyway), a w turban, and a few pieces of dusk. Being able to equip stronger weapons and similar gear as other DD melees did more to boost DNC's power than the previous update did by a long shot. I never understood why SE waited so long to give DNC AF, relic, and tier 1 and 2 merits. The job had serious potential, anyone could see it, but without these basic things to help level the field they were hopelessly outgunned by other jobs and developed a poor fanbase reaction for the longest time. Happened with the ToAU jobs too - ****, PUP still hasn't gotten over theirs and probably never will no matter how many buffs they get, which is sad really.

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Basically, the conclusion you're supposed to come to - which should be obvious - is that as long as the reduction in the DNC's damage is less than the amount of damage the RDM's doing, you get more total damage.

Some people actually don't get that.

Well, like I said, I understand conceptually the question here. I just don't accept that the answer tends to favor the RDM melee over the all-out DNC. Maybe you don't either and I'm just reading this wrong, I'm not sure, it's kind of a bit fuddling at this point.

He didn't say lvl 75 cap before merits/AF/relic came into play. Before merits and whatnot dnc really did kind of suck. But then again before the 2 hander update some could argue SAM DRK and DRG kind of sucked too compared to nin war and mnk. But thats a moot point because the updates did happen.

Last question on this and I'll leave it be. Do you guys feel that a pimped out DNC at Lv75 would easily defeat a pimped RDM at the 75 cap? I'm conflicted on this myself so I'm asking you guys. The off-hit Joyeuse for you guys at 75 wasn't the best. I agree at Lv85 DNC totally demolishes RDM and is a huge contender to all DD's.

It depends on what.

To me, the greater point is that both jobs are enablers. The point of having a DNC in the party is to have Haste Samba, to have massive healing capability, to have Steps, and so on. A RDM is there for similar things - healing, buffing, enfeebling, etc. The difference is that meleeing gives DNC the TP it needs, where it does very little to make RDM function better (could argue MAcc down with En-II and DB, but meh). Pure DD is not the point of either job.

DNC isn't as strong a DD as some like to theorycraft it into - the job is tuned to gain TP, but it's also tuned not to be a heavy-hitter. RDM also has options not available to DNC, such as nuking, or Enspell damage on physically resistant mobs.

My only real personal comparison for the two at 75 was FoV - I spent hundreds of hours between the two out in VoS. While the particular flow of either differed, I pulled pretty similar XP/hr. Given that, I'd probably give the edge to DNC in an actual party/alliance situation, taking into consideration buffs n' all. My RDM had Haste for itself, DNC..I usually used Drain Samba III since it offset most damage taken.

It's still a hypothetical - remove the need to do anything that isn't a direct damage booster, and they'd come in higher than they would in a realistic setup. Neither job should be particularly concerned with their own damage, and more concerned about what they can do to make the party/alliance's damage better as a whole.

This is stupid. It's incredibly obvious that full-on DD DNC + backline RDM is going to do less damage than full-on DNC + RDM basically backlining, but has a Joyeuse in their idle set and is standing next to the mob. It's free damage (as long as there aren't bad AoEs to worry about).

It's also obvious that a pimped 85 DNC/SAM is going to pump out the damage if they're trying for it, while RDM/whatever isn't going to have such an easy time (gogo Magic Burst Bonus?), and the DNC's TP would be better spent DDing than curing as long as the RDM's MP is keeping up.

On the other hand, it's also obvious that there are some really terribly-geared DNCs out there, where you really would get more damage if the DNC cured and the RDM did everything else they normally do while focusing a little more on melee.

The question (and it will vary with the skill + equipment of your DNC and RDM) is, where is the maximization point?

Wait, a situational decision? In my FFXI? It's more likely than you think.

This is stupid. It's incredibly obvious that full-on DD DNC + backline RDM is going to do less damage than full-on DNC + RDM basically backlining, but has a Joyeuse in their idle set and is standing next to the mob. It's free damage (as long as there aren't bad AoEs to worry about).

It's also obvious that a pimped 85 DNC/SAM is going to pump out the damage if they're trying for it, while RDM/whatever isn't going to have such an easy time (gogo Magic Burst Bonus?), and the DNC's TP would be better spent DDing than curing as long as the RDM's MP is keeping up.

On the other hand, it's also obvious that there are some really terribly-geared DNCs out there, where you really would get more damage if the DNC cured and the RDM did everything else they normally do while focusing a little more on melee.

The question (and it will vary with the skill + equipment of your DNC and RDM) is, where is the maximization point?

Wait, a situational decision? In my FFXI? It's more likely than you think.

it's also obvious that there are some really terribly-geared DNCs out there

Why is this always a talking point in any DNC argument? Not to derail, but when talking setups and abilities and possibilities of how DNC operates, someone always brings up the horribly geared DNCs as if it is some type of validation to their argument. Isn't it assumed when making these talking points that the jobs in question have near optimal gear?

True there are many MANY horrible geared DNCs out there (I know...most if not all are on my server ; ;) but the argument as a whole can be said about ANY job...yet in most of these arguments they're not brought up for some reason...

Yeah. At the end of the day, if both jobs are played by players of equal skill, dancer has the pretty overwhelming front line advantageous, I mean the accuracy +35 trait alone at level 80 means they can gear themselves like a fooligan and be competitive on accuarcy with a red mage loaded with acc gear.

But I wonder why this argument has to be DNC support + RDM melee. I mean, who cares about RDM? Certainly not us; this is the dancer forum! Why aren't we also discussing the possibility of a WHM/NIN equipping that wacky Shen body armor and busting out some sick Hexa Strikes? Or maybe if the PLD goes all-out DD and the DNC waltzspams him, the damage output will be higher than the DNC alone? Heck, let's invite Mellowy and have a melee SMN and her avatar up there. The possibilities are endless!

No matter how you slice it, if a hybrid-ish job changes into a more support roll so that some other hybrid-ish job can change into a full DD roll, then things will change. How much? In who's favor? Which is "better"? Man, I don't know. Depends strongly on the types of mobs you're fighting and the overall gear and skill of the players. Arguing "X is better than Y!" in this sort of situation only kinda makes you look silly, since there's always gunna be a situation when you're wrong. Unless you're arguing against DNC being awesome, of course; then you're always going to be wrong. :D

But I wonder why this argument has to be DNC support + RDM melee. I mean, who cares about RDM? Certainly not us; this is the dancer forum! Why aren't we also discussing the possibility of a WHM/NIN equipping that wacky Shen body armor and busting out some sick Hexa Strikes? Or maybe if the PLD goes all-out DD and the DNC waltzspams him, the damage output will be higher than the DNC alone? Heck, let's invite Mellowy and have a melee SMN and her avatar up there. The possibilities are endless!

Because somebody thought he'd be nice and petty and drag this discussion into another job's forum in some blind attempt to educate the masses. I don't know where some posters go the idea that RDM could outdamage DNC, given similar gear and player skill. But the answer here doesn't help ShadowedgeFFXI's cause in the slightest.

Worse, his original post gives off some impression that the RDM forum is full of meleetards who want to pull swords against Absolute Virtue, which absolutely is not true. An overwhelming majority of the posters there know there are some mobs that are too dangerous to frontline against and the whole RDM frontline thing is never talked about in those contexts. The vast majority in there know the benefits of subbing /SCH weighed against the benefit of subbing frontline subjobs.

ShadowedgeFFXI seems to be confused about something about the job, even as SE continues to give it job defining aspects like Saboteur, Addle, and yes, even Composure (which, by the way, can be turned off at the user's convenience unlike, say, a SCH's Art abilities, all depending on whatever it is you're trying to do), and even a whole En-spell that works with DNC's Sambas rather than conflict with them. He's just mad the rest of us don't share his confusion.

Actually in the SE video that RDM was /NIN and likely tanking AV. Being engaged just gives a RDM a small chance to parry. The staff is an earth staff so if shadows go down you get the -% damage taken. It is apparent because the log shows the RDM cycling blind/bind/dispel/sleep/sleepII, Now confused as to why SE would show us a video with a RDM/NIN tanking AV and then nerf RDM tanking. My brain is all fuzzy like now.

Fact of the matter is, you got flamed out of YOUR thread, and brought it here to try and save some face, and secondly, nobody really cares, because we know the answer, and know you know the answer too.

And that's it. That other thread was made out of some confusion over what the job's role is. Nobody on that other forum seems to think there is any state of confusion. The concession seems to be: against new EXP mobs, support and melee. Against NMs: support and enfeeble.

It turned into a melee RDM vs melee every other hybrid because the original poster wanted it turn into such a thread when it was clear nobody shared his confusion about the job's role.

But maybe it would be better to ask non-RDMs what they think. This seems like a good opportunity to do so. DNCs, what does RDM do? It's an enfeebler, among any other roles it sets itself to take up, right? Well here is what a certain somebody thinks about enfeebling.

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I can't foresee RDM becoming a front-line job either though despite the push for it by some forum posters. Saboteur and Addle were really nice additions, but it's still not enough to warrant an enfeebling slot by itself. By that I mean nobody is going to say, "Hey RDM, come here and be our enfeeble guru".

And here is what somebody thinks of the new job ability in conjunction with our most desired debuff.

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Slow II 39% slow, 78% with Sab, duration 3->6 minutes

Against NMs, anybody here want to tell me 78% Slow isn't worth a spot in the alliance? Tanks are always banking on that next opportunity to put shadows back up.

Against EXP mobs, Dia III is like a mini-Berserk, except it doesn't just affect the user. It's being applied to every member of the alliance dealing physical damage to the mob.

Talking about how the job isn't invited just to be enfeebler is moot when it can support and heal and, yes, even nuke if the opportunity arises (I mean, any extra damage helps kill the target that much faster, right?). You'd be remiss if you arrived and all you did was be an "enfeeble guru" when it's clear you can do other things with no penalty to your ability to enfeeble.

Actually in the SE video that RDM was /NIN and likely tanking AV. Being engaged just gives a RDM a small chance to parry. The staff is an earth staff so if shadows go down you get the -% damage taken. It is apparent because the log shows the RDM cycling blind/bind/dispel/sleep/sleepII, Now confused as to why SE would show us a video with a RDM/NIN tanking AV and then nerf RDM tanking. My brain is all fuzzy like now.