apologetics theology culture worship

There is a movement within Christendom called the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Some Christians believe it's a true work of God, others are skeptical...others claim it doesn't exist at all! My guest, Holly Pivec has written two books on the NAR, and talks with me about her concerns regarding the teachings and practices of this growing movement.

Update (3/1/2018):

After posting this podcast, a couple people contacted me asking about whether or not Christians should sing songs from Bethel music. It’s something I have thought quite a bit about, and am still thinking through, so I decided share my thoughts publicly.

First of all, if you search my name on YouTube, you will find some videos of me singing Bethel songs. Even though many of those were posted before I was aware of Bethel's connection to NAR, I’m a worship leader, and an artist, so I have tons of grace for worship leaders because I know how hard it is to please everyone.

I don’t always know much about the people who write some of the songs I sing. My philosophy is this: if the lyric of the song is something that I can sing in good conscience before God, and I believe it to be biblical and glorifying to God, I’m going to sing it. I don’t feel the need to research the exact theology of every song writer who records a worship song. (That would be exhausting and probably impossible.) I also don’t think that every worship song needs to be super literal or cover the complexities of the entire gospel in 4 stanzas…I can dive right in to a water metaphor! (Wink wink.)

With that said, I do find that some of the Bethel songs are lyrically vague. So I think it’s important for worship leaders to incorporate some literal songs as well (like hymns). Symbolic and metaphorical songs can be interpreted to mean almost anything that fits in your own paradigm.

Here’s an example:

You make me brave, you make me brave
You call me out beyond on the shore into the waves
You make me brave, you make me brave
No fear can hinder now the love that made a way

Now, if you are a Bible believing, Evangelical Christian, you might apply these lyrics to something you believe God is calling you to do…something difficult like going into full-time ministry or adopting a child. You might even apply it to the idea of taking up your cross and following Christ, which is increasingly challenging in our post-Christian culture.

Now think about these lyrics if you are a Progressive Christian who is in the process of changing your theology on things like LGBT inclusion, substitutionary atonement, and biblical authority. Read the lyrics again with that paradigm in mind.

Wow…what radically different meanings can be applied to the same song! This is why I think it’s really important to incorporate songs that are very clear about the gospel. So, in my opinion, if you’re going to sing “You Make Me Brave” in a worship service, also sing something like “In Christ Alone,” or “Come Thou Fount.”

I’m sure my thinking will continue to be refined on this subject, and I might change my view. But for now, that’s where I’m at. What do you think? Please comment below.

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Enjoyed this podcast with Holly, bringing back why I left my church. Keep up the work you have been given. Every item discussed was my experience. I stepped outside the box independently but sadly it seems many get caught up in the movement. Thanks again. Harold

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Alisa Childers

2/16/2018 04:27:42 pm

Thanks Harold!

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Tami Sue Webster

3/30/2018 09:47:40 pm

Alisa. Thank U so much for this podcast. I have been researching this for 4 months because so many people in my community are being influenced. I wanted to make 2 comments beyond the theology of Bethel Music. By singing their music we are lending credibility to them and their associates hence their heretical doctrine. Secondly every time we sing their music they receive royalties which in turn helps promote their heresy. So we have chosen to discontinue using their music. Another good book is DEFINING DECEPTION By COSTI HINN. Bless all u do.

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Harold Wiltshire

2/16/2018 10:40:04 am

Good interview with Holly. Appreciate your ministry.

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Beverly Powell

2/17/2018 11:20:19 am

Hello Alisa,
I really do enjoy the subscription from you, and I thank you for the work God has called you into the body of Christ. Your posts are so informative and really Help prepare me to defend my faith. I’ve been born again for 38 years and so I am sort of old school as far as what new leaders that I let in my life. I did do some research on the “NAR“ and (thank you for making me aware of some of the new movement), but I don’t think all of the leaders who have been grouped into the “NAR” movement fit the description of what I have found the NAR to be about after listening to the podcast. I’m very careful about throwing other Christian leaders into a big pot, so I would caution others who are making people aware of this type of movement and any other movements to be careful not to tarnish other leaders who are really doing a good work and who are really called by God. I looked at one leader who has been associated with the NAR movement just because she uses words to build her children up in the faith...she has been labeled a “NAR” guru. I might be labeled that myself if someone heard my interpretation of some of my beliefs that I strongly know are sound doctrine. This is just a caution from me. I’m 61 and was brought up on the teaching of some of the greatest parenting coaches and teacher I know...Dobson’s...Lahayes...Evans...and apologetics...R.C. Sproul...etc
In Jesus Christ
Beverly Powell

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Alisa Childers

2/17/2018 11:32:48 am

Hi Beverly, thanks for your comment. I think you bring up a good point...there is SO much mis-information on the internet, and I'm sure there are some websites out there who incorrectly identify certain leaders as being "NAR." We have to be so careful to discern what's really going on. That's why I had Holly on, who has done a legitimate scholarly work on this subject. The people she named are undeniably in NAR networks, and she is very careful to present only well-researched and well-reasoned arguments. I pray this podcast was helpful for you!

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Jaeson

3/18/2018 08:59:12 am

I've found Holly to be dead-on correct about who is in the NAR. I was in it for around 10 years, after relatives who were basic charismatics got sucked into the movement. Many people who were charismatic, and/or word of faith (another movement like the NAR that teaches some very off doctrines) are now sucked into the NAR.

NAR is very very subtle in their more extreme doctrines. You won't hear them necessarily from just one or two messages. However, if you attend a NAR church you do get it. It is on "hype" mode whenever guest speakers are around, particularly self-proclaimed prophets and apostles. After a while you become numb to the doctrines and language that they use and are unable to even identify it....that is, unless you leave. After I left it was like the wool was torn off and I could see how far away from Biblical Christianity it was.

The thing that really clued me in while I was still in it- was the odd emphasis on experiences. Only the leaders seem to be so "in tune" with God, being taken up to a supposed 3rd heaven.... The other thing was the disrespect for God. The Holy Spirit is reduced to "holy spirit" and His thrown about as if He is just here to make us "feel good." That is quite the contrary from what is in Scripture. This really bothered me when I was going to a NAR church (one of the main ones here in So.Cal). There was a huge elitist mentality among people in the NAR. All other churches were seen as dead, backwards, and not as "cutting edge" as theirs. Pretty much anything on "Godtv" is NAR.

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Monica Gelien

2/18/2018 11:45:23 am

I have been challenged before when I speak out about this movement to my friends who I see are misguided. They are calling me religious. They think I have the religious spirit. How do I tespond in love to this!?

One of the key features of the NAR and related church patterns is their intentional provision of arguments (or often simply labels) to deflect challenges. Because both they and we are convinced that we are on the side of truth, or at least on the side of God's work in our world, it's not as easy to speak "across the fence" as it might be in the context of normal apologetics conversations.

There are at least two key places, as I see it, where the foundations diverge. First, there is the assumption that God has decided to speak to individuals primarily through their leaders (prophets and apostles) rather than directly through His Word and through the inner guidance of His Spirit. To be sure, we are called to counsel or even teach one another, but that's different than the strict authority structures being promoted.

The other assumption is that God is going to bring His end-time Kingdom to earth through a process by which the church actually transforms society. Apart from the fact that this has no historical precedent of success, there is also much in Scripture that suggests that the church will be persecuted and rejected by society until Jesus Himself intervenes.

But because of these two non-compatible foundations, there is little that can be said by way of direct argument. Most people embrace the NAR-type thinking because they long for strong leadership and because they want society to be healed. They are also often drawn to the presence of the supernatural, which can be deceptively appealing.

I think the only way out is 1) for these individuals to see or experience the all-too-frequent abuses that such authority structures can produce, or 2) for them to seriously engage Scripture, not through the interpretive lens of NAR leaders (who often significantly redefine Scriptural terms and concepts), but through personal study guided by the orthodoxy of historical biblical councils and creeds.

Thanks Alisha an Holly. I was grateful to hear Holly in person. I have one her books I believe on NAR. To hear her encapsulate all of it was wonderful. Alisha I was glad to discover you as well. Clear thinkers the both of you, and ardent lovers of our LORD and Saviour. Paul said I will pray with the Spirit and with the mind. I've been touched by the way you use both. In JESUS, brother Suresh

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Jaeson Calini

3/18/2018 09:00:28 am

Thanks Holly! Keep up the good work!

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JohnM

7/8/2018 08:40:11 am

I'm in the UK and can see parallels here. The UK has it's own 24/7 prayer group founded by Pete Greig (not IHOP, but founded on the same day as IHOP interestingly). I see the same errors here. There is an emphasis on 'Celtic christianity' I.e. Going back to ancient spirituality. There is a claimed 'move of the spirit' in the Celtic lands, and people like Karl Martin of Central Church, Edinburgh, who claims to be an apostle (although I haven't read any recent written claim to this, I know he claimed it years ago) heading it, on the back of 3DM (founded by Mike Breen). Our church is now using worship songs from Hillsong, Bethel, Rend Collective, Matt Maher, etc. I don't think a church should use any of these songs, because of the source theology, e.g. NAR, Prosperity gospel. Hillsong and Bethel have now joined forces in joint worship events, so even if Hillsong aren't as overtly incorrect as Bethel, by association they disqualify themselves from orthodoxy. There is no-one in the UK picking up on these errors, apart from individual concerned people like me, unlike in USA where there seems to be a growing voice against these errors, so they go unchecked here in the U.K. Can you please throw any light on the UK situation? Many thanks. John

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DavidB

10/16/2018 06:40:52 pm

Alisa,

I very much appreciate your podcasts and articles. As a Baptist pastor, I can recommend them to members of my congregation to gain a better understanding of various issues in a down-to-earth format. I especially appreciate the update comments on using discernment with vague Christian music. Could you devote an entire podcast or article to the topic? I'm sure it would very helpful to pastors, worship leaders, and many others in the church. Blessings on you and your ministry!

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Tim

10/31/2018 08:32:34 am

I’ve followed IHOPKC for years, have listened to hundreds of hours of Mike Bickle’s sermons and have never heard him condone or promote NAR teachings. Their website even contains a direct response to their claimed affiliation to the NAR movement: https://www.ihopkc.org/press-center/faq/ihopkc-part-new-apostolic-reformation/
While I appreciated the podcast and learned a lot about NAR, I’d ask people to conduct their own research and not jump too quickly into accusing fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord of being heretics. Thanks for all you do - really enjoy listening and learning from your podcasts!