TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion
"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed.

While it has been suggested that the answer to this is simply The Return, I think it speaks potentially to a more exact answer, which is what we see happen to the world through Aviendha's second trip in Rhuidean where she sees a future. Is the second doom yet to come, the Destruction of the Aiel? Or how about the destruction of the White Tower as an institution? After all, he talks about manipulating Artur into killing Aes Sedai and surely bringing about its destruction would be doom-ish.

Did Ishamael orchestrate The Return for this eventuality? How much does Ishamael remember from previous turnings? Were these direct requests from the DO to Ishamael? Does Ishamael survive the Last Battle? Does he continue to whisper in the ears of the Seanchan to bring about the destruction of the Aiel? Was any of this in the Dark Prophecies?

Ishamael is not that good, unless he's had a Dream or something. Occam's Razor suggests that he simply wanted to cause chaos among the Lightsiders so that they would be ill prepared for the Last Battle. Prophecies suspected of being fake all point to this.

Ishamael is not that good, unless he's had a Dream or something. Occam's Razor suggests that he simply wanted to cause chaos among the Lightsiders so that they would be ill prepared for the Last Battle. Prophecies suspected of being fake all point to this.

I wouldn't preclude Ishamael from having some access to information that would allow him to make this claim in anticipation of something he believes will happen even after the Last Battle. I mean, he does work for the DO, who we believe has been through a few Turnings and knows a few things about how it all turns out, even in variation.

Dream/Dreamwalking, access to Dark Dreamers/Dreamwalkers, Foretellings and Books of Prophecy (and the DO and previous lives perhaps?) There are many avenues that would make Ishamael feel like an authority on what doom the Seanchan will bring about.

... I think it speaks potentially to a more exact answer, which is what we see happen to the world through Aviendha's second trip in Rhuidean where she sees a future.

I don't think Aviendha's hallucination in Rhuidean has anything to do with the DYTC -- or vice versa. If anything, Aviendha's halucination is an effort to arrange another DYTC.

I do agree that the DYTC is more specific than the Return, given the imperitive the Seanchan to drag Rand before the Crystal Throne/ensure rand serves the Crystal Throne. I think the Return is merely the mechanism for the "Doom" which is really the arrangement for Seanchan dupes to cart off one, or more, of the main players (preferably Rand) so that the forces of Light are out of position when T'G arrives.

I don't think Aviendha's hallucination in Rhuidean has anything to do with the DYTC -- or vice versa. If anything, Aviendha's halucination is an effort to arrange another DYTC.

I do agree that the DYTC is more specific than the Return, given the imperitive the Seanchan to drag Rand before the Crystal Throne/ensure rand serves the Crystal Throne. I think the Return is merely the mechanism for the "Doom" which is really the arrangement for Seanchan dupes to cart off one, or more, of the main players (preferably Rand) so that the forces of Light are out of position when T'G arrives.

Took me a second to figure out DYTC.

Seanchan Shackling Rand (or others) Before the Last Battle, that works for me as an option. That would speak to his interest in the Seanchan for a very long time, and continued interest.

Seanchan Shackling Rand (or others) Before the Last Battle, that works for me as an option. That would speak to his interest in the Seanchan for a very long time, and continued interest.

The entire social structure of the Seanchan speaks of "tampering" by Ishamael. How much and how often is an open question. If he is indeed a Dreamer and is working to bring about (or thwart) something he dreamed, simply sending Luthair with an latered copy of the KC might have been all that was required. OTOH, he might have needed to spend part of every furlough from the Bore tweeking things to keep them on track.

I think it is worth noting that Ishamael could NOT have set up his DYTC without the cooperation and complicity of the Pattern. Other than literary necessity for conflict, I can't help but wonder why the Pattern wants the Seanchan to resist Rand until the last moment?

I think it is worth noting that Ishamael could NOT have set up his DYTC without the cooperation and complicity of the Pattern. Other than literary necessity for conflict, I can't help but wonder why the Pattern wants the Seanchan to resist Rand until the last moment?

I'm guessing that the conflict is necessary to force the conditions for the negotiations. Neither side will be willing to make any sort of compromise unless they feel they have no other choice.

While it has been suggested that the answer to this is simply The Return, I think it speaks potentially to a more exact answer, which is what we see happen to the world through Aviendha's second trip in Rhuidean where she sees a future. Is the second doom yet to come, the Destruction of the Aiel? Or how about the destruction of the White Tower as an institution? After all, he talks about manipulating Artur into killing Aes Sedai and surely bringing about its destruction would be doom-ish.

Did Ishamael orchestrate The Return for this eventuality? How much does Ishamael remember from previous turnings? Were these direct requests from the DO to Ishamael? Does Ishamael survive the Last Battle? Does he continue to whisper in the ears of the Seanchan to bring about the destruction of the Aiel? Was any of this in the Dark Prophecies?

What caught my attention in the dream sequence was in the exact same bit but the end:

Quote:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion
"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed.

That seems to indicate that the doom yet to come might be tied to the Seanchan invasion and their seemingly single-minded pursuit of destroying Tar Valon. Or possibly the doom yet to come is the culling out of channeling by collaring all channelers?

__________________Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

Theoryland Siren

Bonded to JWB

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-- Winston Churchill

I've always assumed that the DYTC was the change in the Seanchan prophecies, which leads them to believe that Rand has to be subdued in order for the LB to be won. If the Seanchan had been willing to accept the DR as the Leader of the Light, then Fortuona would not still be trying to gain control of Rand.

Maybe Ishy can simply Foretell instead of Dreaming? Afterall, we know from the Seanchan that those that can Foretell can actually control the when/where of it to an extent...a gift/knowledge lost by Randlanders over the years. Perhaps Ishy has that ability?

Maybe he's the guy producing that secret Shadow prophecy he has access to.

__________________Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Tuon is stating a misbelief [that damane can tell fortunes], really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will. The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling — though they are beginning to hear reports – but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say. There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune. This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul'dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean. And also a higher percentage of many Talents.

A minor flaw IMHO...Ishy could still be able to Foretell regardless of the rest. Its certainly more likely than him being a Dreamer (an even rarer Talent).

__________________Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

I always thought the doom yet to come was a modified version of one of the lives rand lived in the portal worlds, where the seanchan conquer the whole world but are insufficient to stop the shadow. Instead of an imperial-free lands alliance, they fight amongst themselves until the seanchan win or the shadowspawn come pouring out while they are still fighting. Either scenario leaves both sides weakened, and fails to fulfill the requirements named by the aelfinn. By influencing the seanchan culture to the point where they firmly believe that they have the right to rule and have a way of life completely contrary to Tar Valon, ishamael can virtually ensure the nations allied to tar valon will be at a war of attrition with the empire come Tarmon Gaidon. All he needs to do is make the omen of the return occur a short time before the last battle. Or maybe he was confident that the pattern would see to it for him.

Now that I think about it, danine or whoever it was that made the first adam was probably a darkfriend acting on orders, or perhaps compelled by ishamael to ensure future war with the forces of tar valon.

I had an idea that the Seanchan are actually the Dark One's counter-stroke, this time around, much like how tainting Saidin was his counter-stroke last time, but prepared much further in advance. The Seanchan have a lot of symbolism associated with them which is also associated with the Shadow: ravens are important to them; the heir apparent being known as "Daughter of the Nine Moons" resembles "Daughter of the Night", Lanfear's name, etc. The Doom Yet To Come therefore would be a Seanchan conquest, leading to a world where channelers and the Aiel are severely oppressed and the entire population lives under a certain degree of oppression; so in other words, Avi's vision.

Of course, I strongly disagree with the idea that Avi's vision has any prospect of coming to pass, so it may be that the Doom Yet To Come will be averted. I do like the idea of Ishamael influencing an entire culture purely in order to get back at the Light, just in case his inevitable victory was just a little bit evitable this time around.

__________________Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

Ran: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.
RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

Ishamael can be a Dreamwalker without being a Dreamer.

(I was just reading through all these threads to see if there was anything that I found interesting while re-reading)