UU Suspect Discussion - Mew

You mean the characteristics we threw out and decided not to use for the 5th generation? Even so, the 4th "overcentralizing clause" is something you just made up - never in DPP was "overcentralizing" a ban characteristic.

For all of those arguing that Stallbreaker is broken - what about Sabeleye? Isn't he essentially the same Pokemon, exchanging stats for typing and Prankster?

You realize Mew is going to be NPing as Cofagrigus switches in, right?

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You did go to the specified link didn't you? The 'Overcentralizing Clause' is essentially what the author was trying to institute at the bottom of the OP. Not my ideas, but I'll use them if they make sense. Besides, even if we junked the characteristics, which was more applicable for OU than UU because of Power Creep, they're still good bases to judge Pokemon off of if no consensus can be reached through this holistic analysis.

Can +2 Mew 1hko Cofag with Psyshock? No... you've a point, that Cofag can't 1hko w/out a NP boost. On the other hand Mew definitely cannot swap into Cofagrigus or it's outsped in TR, does pitiful damage if it attacks unboosted and dies outright if it decides to boost against Cofag.

That said, its Psychic-typing could allow some underdogs like Zoroark, Krookodile & Mismagius to make a reappearance, which is something I don't actually have a problem with. 2 /3 of these Pokemon naturally outspeed Mew, and Krookodile predominately runs Scarf so its fine too. They also don't really mind Sucker Punch, which makes them pretty reliable Mew checks.

I 100% disagree with that mentality (EX: if Mewtwo had base 90 stats across the board it wouldn't be Uber!) Quoting because :cloud:

Solution: Play against some good UU players who use Mew. Actually scratch that, don't want you playing someone like koko, beating him then posting "Mew isn't broken fuckers!" (jk)

I'd honestly run Smeargle or Gorebyss if you wanted a Baton Pass user. On dedicated Baton Pass teams, I agree Mew is fantastic.

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@PK Gaming
So if Heracross checks 70% of the tier why aren't we testing our Pokemon and teams according to it? Saying that something's check is overpowered isn't actually giving a reason why it's not valid, until said check gets out of the tier.

Wait, I don't see what point you're trying to make with Mewtwo. Are you saying that it'd still be Uber if it had Base 90 Stats across the board?

If it's hard for a decent player to sweep massively with Mew, then it shouldn't be broken. And I can't see myself getting 6-0'd, no matter how good the opponent, with Mew. That said, I'd probably take a beating.

Next:
Guys, you are all saying that its offensive sets are too good, that it's impossible to counter it, that it can't be taken out without incurring damage to the team... but isn't that true of any of the top-tier threats in UU? Heracross without a straight-out counter, Darmanitan w/out Bulky Waters, Kingdra w/out Empoleon, Raikou w/out... uh, depends on the set, and Mew w/out some of its many checks? It's not possible to maneuver around a well-built team with good support for its main sweeper without losing something.

Guys... something is not by definition broken if it's the best at a certain role. Mew might be the best bulky set-up sweeper but every role has to have a best Pokemon. Does that make it broken? Maybe! But we shouldn't be banning stuff just because it's hard to counter, or that it's capable of sweeping 2-3 Pokemon by itself. If we did that, we'd have lost Raikou, Kingdra, and Roserade by now.

A quote from the Smogon philosophy page:
Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena.

Can +2 Mew 1hko Cofag with Psyshock? No... you've a point, that Cofag can't 1hko w/out a NP boost. On the other hand Mew definitely cannot swap into Cofagrigus or it's outsped in TR, does pitiful damage if it attacks unboosted and dies outright if it decides to boost against Cofag.

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Well, and why would you be switching Mew into Cofagrigus in the first place? We are talking about how dangerous Mew is or if Cofagrigus is a good check or not, not about how well Mew fares when it switches on a pokemon that has a super effective STAB move against it ffs. And try to understand that Cofagrigus is coming in as Mew makes a move, arguing about anything else just makes no sense at all

@PK Gaming
So if Heracross checks 70% of the tier why aren't we testing our Pokemon and teams according to it? Saying that something's check is overpowered isn't actually giving a reason why it's not valid, until said check gets out of the tier.

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You don't get what PK Gaming means, or don't seem to think deeply about it at least... What he's trying to say is that saying that Mew can be checked by Heracross can hardly be a reason not to ban it when almost everything in the tier is on the same situation, (as in, being checked by Heracross is not something ''special'' for Mew only), and that even some pokemon that are broken in the tier and were banned are checked by it.

Next:
Guys, you are all saying that its offensive sets are too good, that it's impossible to counter it, that it can't be taken out without incurring damage to the team... but isn't that true of any of the top-tier threats in UU? Heracross without a straight-out counter, Darmanitan w/out Bulky Waters, Kingdra w/out Empoleon, Raikou w/out... uh, depends on the set, and Mew w/out some of its many checks? It's not possible to maneuver around a well-built team with good support for its main sweeper without losing something.

Guys... something is not by definition broken if it's the best at a certain role. Mew might be the best bulky set-up sweeper but every role has to have a best Pokemon. Does that make it broken? Maybe! But we shouldn't be banning stuff just because it's hard to counter, or that it's capable of sweeping 2-3 Pokemon by itself. If we did that, we'd have lost Raikou, Kingdra, and Roserade by now.

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Err, well, the thing is that every pokemon you mentioned (except for arguably Kingdra, which is the best comparation I guess) has hard counters and some solid checks, something you just can't say about Mew (I'm not talking about revenge killers here, for any of the pokemon). Raikou meets Snorlax, Rhyperior, Swampert, Umbreon, etc; Darmanitan can't beat Slowbro, Rhyperior, Suicune, (introduce bulky water); Heracross is hard countered / checked by Cofagrigus, Qwilfish, Nidoqueen, Crobat, Gligar, etc (depending of the set yeah... and it goes on. None of the pokemon you mentioned are as difficult to stop as Mew, and they also lack the bulk to switch in against other pokemon and having enough health to set up....

And we're obviously not going to ban Mew just because it's the best at something, the point of this discussion and ladder play is to determine if Mew is just too good for the tier right now so yeah, don't get us wrong lol

Roserade is harder to stop simply because it beats all the spinners in UU (Blastoise, Hitmontop, Claydol, Kabutops) excluding Delibird but that's Delibird. It's also got massive offensive presence and can effectively run Scarf or Specs. Still, got counters like Bronzong.

I think Raikou is the closest comparison to Mew, to be honest. Raikou can run HP Grass to beat out Rhyperior and Swampert, which leaves it vulnerable to Gligar I guess, and Aura Sphere to smash Snorlax to a bloody pulp. It also gets Weather Ball from the Aura Sphere event and it's devastating in Hail. It's also horribly vulnerable to 4mss, which is, I think, a major problem with Mew.

With Mew, you're either going to be running NP/SD+3 attacks or 2 attacks w/ recovery. With 3 attacks your choices are pretty much unlimited, but then you have to rely on that natural bulk to do anything, especially if you run a resist berry as suggested (gimmicky) to beat certain Pokemon. With Recover/Softboiled in the last slot, however, you can't get perfect coverage and you pretty much can't run your STAB attack because of coverage issues. Psychic/Dark? Other Dark-types, which beat you anyway. Psychic-Fighting? Say hello to other Psychics. Psychic/Ghost? Meloetta, who can effortlessly set up CM on you regardless of what you do, because it can KO you faster than your Psyshock can dent it. So you're essentially forced to run Ghost/Fighting, which is decent (but no SE coverage on SABLEYE) or Dark/Fighting which is essentially the same thing but misses Heracross. Huge problem there.

The way I see it, you can either set up an boost and sweep with Lefties, running the risk of being revenged and forced out, or running LO or a resist berry and just not giving a crap when the supposed counter comes in. You honestly compromise too much bulk to be effective with a resist berry, imo.

Nasty Plot Mew's coverage isn't THAT strong. SE moves with low base power still have low base power. Victini for example has V-create, which is 270 after STAB. A more common bp is 120 or 180 after STAB. Mew's Psychic is 135, SE Aura Sphere is 180 and SE Shadow Ball is 160. So what about the stuff that Ghost/Fighting doesn't hit super effectively? You have to rely on that pitiful STAB.

You aren't getting KOs on neutral targets and that unboosted speed means you're easily revenge killed. I'm aware mew is bulky enough to take a hit, so you have to let something die to kill it. Anything with Specs or a Band has the same effect, without the turn of set up. Mew should not be banned.

I think Raikou is the closest comparison to Mew, to be honest. Raikou can run HP Grass to beat out Rhyperior and Swampert, which leaves it vulnerable to Gligar I guess, and Aura Sphere to smash Snorlax to a bloody pulp. It also gets Weather Ball from the Aura Sphere event and it's devastating in Hail. It's also horribly vulnerable to 4mss, which is, I think, a major problem with Mew.

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You know the real issue with the event Raikou is not so much coverage as it is the fact that it has to run a rash nature which in turn actually lowers its speed tier to the point that it is outsped by base 100s. Its not so much 4 move slot syndrome as it is the draw back of the stat that hinders event Raikou.

Edit: Thanks cim for clarification but even sitting at a troll speed given the pace of the metagame making use of that 115 speed to get into speed ties with the other hard hitting 115s does help out in its sweep (that and it is relevant to not be outsped by Meinshao as HJK would actually hurt Raikou as compared to Mew and Mein's U-turn). I guess another thing I'd add is Mew's coverage is really not as comparable to Raikou because it simply doesn't get as blocked as easily thanks to access to going mixed while retaining being a special sweeper - nor is it as predictably offensive since we're only looking at the NP set whereas Mew has the liberty to be of an entirely different variant. Even then there just isn't very much that can stand up to the normal Psyshock/Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere coverage, nothing in particular hard walls it unlike Raikou which ends up with cost benefit depending on what Hidden Power opts to cover.

With Mew, you're either going to be running NP/SD+3 attacks or 2 attacks w/ recovery. With 3 attacks your choices are pretty much unlimited, but then you have to rely on that natural bulk to do anything, especially if you run a resist berry as suggested (gimmicky) to beat certain Pokemon. With Recover/Softboiled in the last slot, however, you can't get perfect coverage and you pretty much can't run your STAB attack because of coverage issues. Psychic/Dark? Other Dark-types, which beat you anyway. Psychic-Fighting? Say hello to other Psychics. Psychic/Ghost? Meloetta, who can effortlessly set up CM on you regardless of what you do, because it can KO you faster than your Psyshock can dent it. So you're essentially forced to run Ghost/Fighting, which is decent (but no SE coverage on SABLEYE) or Dark/Fighting which is essentially the same thing but misses Heracross. Huge problem there.

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How exactly is Meloetta going to be effortlessly boosting on Mew when Psyshock actually hits it on its lower defense should the two end up in a boosting war (who BTW is not exactly finding a niche as a so called counter to Mew)? How is Sableye relevant of a threat to Ghost/Fighting coverage when Sableye's are often, and for good reason, physically defensive (even if it were specially defensive its still a solid 2 OHKO) so how is it exactly a hindrance to a special sweeper based Mew? The type coverages you mention are actually quite good and basically carry the relevant Steel/Dark coverage that would hinder Mew from its sweeps, and thanks to the metagame saturated with fighting types especially dominated by Heracross Steel/Dark is not exactly having such a field day and we are seeing a surge of poison types (namely Nidoqueen/Qwilfish/Crobat which check a lot of relevant threats) to check or counter said fighting types (which in turn is quite favorable to psychic coverage). I'm honestly confused with the accusation that Psychic is quite shitty in UU when I agree with Koko that it does have relevance in threatening fighting types but I add that it is just as relevant in that it threatens the poison types that are quickly becoming just as relevant as a defensive measure with the metagame. Hint more often than not we carry two Heracross checks is food for thought.

The way I see it, you can either set up an boost and sweep with Lefties, running the risk of being revenged and forced out, or running LO or a resist berry and just not giving a crap when the supposed counter comes in. You honestly compromise too much bulk to be effective with a resist berry, imo.

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I think you have to actually play the set or read further into what Koko just mentioned when he proposed the use of berries because it actually follows what Cim mentioned earlier in how NP set Mews can be quite tailor made to suite the team. Fact is how many counters or checks does one actually carry for Mew when most people just end up trying to outspeed or revenge it with whatever bug/dark/steel mon they have after saccing something (because its just not that wise to switch into an offensive Mew variant when you're clearly unaware what set it carries) it leaves your team quite open to a sweep when said check ends up dead (again you're not carrying two checks against Mew's coverage chances are you're carrying two checks against Heracross). That I can see why Mew is a rather dangerous sweeper and as mentioned earlier its not as if very many mons actually are that capable of taking a +2 STAB or SE attack (in fact the calcs posted above are actually rather impressive...).

I'm just going to say a lot of the scenarios you posted are very much tailor made to be rather dis-favorable because they are not only rather uncommon but construe some very questionable plays. Statements like:

This statement is just plain wrong... Why on earth would you attempt to hit Cofagrigus who tends to be defensive on the physical side with Psyshock which would hit on its stronger defense when you most Mew would carry Shadow Ball which not only hits SE but on the weaker defense of Cofagrigus (or if not Shadow Ball a choice from one of the special moves in Mew's arsenal). And BTW have you played Cofa? I wouldn't exactly switch Cofa into a special attacker because I'd much rather he switch into a physical attacker so as to utilize mummy or use them as set up fodder given that there is a good shot they won't be hurting it much. Or hell Sableye on a special attacker!? Your scenarios just aren't very likely plays by a decent player, I'm not talking about good players but just decent, because these are quite obvious calls that you really shouldn't be doing naturally if you have a grasp of stats and coverage. At best I see these plays as being a really last ditch effort but in that case its no longer a case of Mew being broken as you simply being outplayed.

@Grim Gregg: Um you do realize those calcs are rather impressive and are quite contrary to what you're trying to say by persuading us that mew lacks power... Shaymin has essentially the same bulk as Mew but more importantly not many can boast hitting Shaymin that hard with a neutral move (and with SR yeah that Shaymin's dead). As for Milotic at best it can phase or haze Mew's boosts but it will be quite crippled... Also Mew outspeeds it so its open to a 2 OHKO then should it opt to haze, while D-tail leaves it entirely up to chance as to what will switch in.

You know the real issue with the event Raikou is not so much coverage as it is the fact that it has to run a rash nature which in turn actually lowers its speed tier to the point that it is outsped by base 100s. Its not so much 4 move slot syndrome as it is the draw back of the stat that hinders event Raikou.

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Actually, Rash Raikou beats base 100s by one point. Not a lot is in the speed tier above that, so it's actually quite usable.

I'm honestly confused with the accusation that Psychic is quite shitty in UU when I agree with Koko that it does have relevance in threatening fighting types but I add that it is just as relevant in that it threatens the poison types that are quickly becoming just as relevant as a defensive measure with the metagame. Hint more often than not we carry two Heracross checks is food for thought.

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Honestly, STAB Psychic is one of the best types in UU right now. There are very few Dark types (Weavile, Houndoom, and Sabeleye are the most common), and a lot of potent threats take SE damage from it (Crobat, Nidos, Roserade, Mienshao, Heracross, among others). I would say Choice locked Psychic is actually a touch safer than Choice locked Electric in this meta. I haven't been using Mew as much as Choice Slowbro and Medicham, and more often than not I'll catch myself going "wow, if I use the Psychic attack, something is going to die for sure".

@Grim Gregg: Um you do realize those calcs are rather impressive and are quite contrary to what you're trying to say by persuading us that mew lacks power... Shaymin has essentially the same bulk as Mew but more importantly not many can boast hitting Shaymin that hard with a neutral move (and with SR yeah that Shaymin's dead). As for Milotic at best it can phase or haze Mew's boosts but it will be quite crippled... Also Mew outspeeds it so its open to a 2 OHKO then should it opt to haze, while D-tail leaves it entirely up to chance as to what will switch in.

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My bad, I just picked two random bulky pokes. I didn't mean to say Shaymin/Milotic are answers to Mew in anyway. The point I'm making is that although few pokes hard counter Mew, lots of things can take one hit and lots of things out speed it. I don't think those calcs are impressive.

Darmanitan hits harder and doesn't need Mew's bulk to set up NP. It's apples and oranges, but much of the tier does hit as hard as Mew. Need a counter to NP Mew? Use Specially Defensive Meloetta with Shadow Ball or Mandibuzz.

Are you really comparing Darmanitan, one of the most unilateral Pokemon in existence, to the single most unpredictable Pokemon in the tier? Unbelievable. And as for your NP Mew counters--yeah, that's all fine and dandy, until you realize no one uses Mandibuzz (because it sucks) and that SpD Meloetta is a really retarded set...

Also @ everyone: Can we stop pretending Mew is one of those sweepers that needs to OHKO everything in its path? It isn't; and if you're using it that way, you're using it wrong (that might explain why people seem to think Azelf is better???).

Once again, let me make it clear that I'm not on the ban camp just yet (quite the opposite actually), but seriously... the arguments being used by like 70% of the posters in this thread make me want to just close it and go back to the old system where the Senate decided everything. It's /that/ bad. Like I mean seriously... reading shit like Cobalion outclassing SD Mew and Mew being RU material if it wasn't for its versatility make me want to kick a puppy; and I really fucking like puppies. I've been extremely lenient with moderating this thread so far, but anything even remotely stupid will be deleted from this point on.

Next time I get a chance to ladder, I'll post some of the logs so you guys can see what I'm talking about when I say Mew is absolutely fucking devastating when used correctly, and then maybe you'll stop misusing and underestimating it.

mew is just actually better than most people are giving it credit for base 100 all allows it to be tailored to just about anything you want to do and not be totally ass about it and while synchronize isn't the best ability it's not totally worthless since unless the status user is immune to the status it's using it now also suffering from toxic/par/burn.

How to Deal with Mew 101 - hilarious style (well this is how I do it in any case)

1. Notice the team around Mew.

If the opposing team has Kingdra and Kabutops and Tornadus it does not take a genius to realize Mew is going to be a rain supporter. Of course thats an easy example, but if you see for instance nothing on your opponents team can carry SR but Mew then it is fairly safe to assume their Mew is a supporter set or at least has SR. If your opponent carries a Nidoking and a Kingdra while having a Venemoth as well, it is likely Mew is going to be a Nasty Plotting sweeper or passer to "go with the flow". This method is by no means a science but it works decently on the ladder. Knowledge is power!

2. Minimize your team's weakness to Psychic.

Duh. Before you do this I would advise making your team resistant to Fire, Electric and Fighting (and now possibly Ice for Blizzards) because these are some of the most potent attacking types in the metagame. Of course having Slowbro is great and all to resist Fire and Fighinting but do realize relying solely on him will open you up to Heracross, Chandelure and even Virizion because their extra STABs.

But thats besides the point for my post, do realize that almost all Mew that run attacking sets or even defensive sets are going to have a STAB Psychic or Psyshock somewhere. Someone already said this but if you're running Roserade make sure you're not also running Nidoking and SD Heracross and other Pokemon slower than Mew because if you do you're in for a Very Bad Time.

3.a. Be strong. Very strong.

By which I mean have something on your team that can seriously maul Mew and preferably outspeed it too. Not only does this give Mew less time to set up (one less Poke he can set up on) it also means this is more poke your opp has to eliminate if he doesn't want to be immediately revenged. I am talking about stuff like CS Heracross and maybe CB Weavile or CS Chandelure these guys can mess up Mew badly and almost ensure an offensive Mew will not get an easy sweep against you and a defensive mew can't just sit there and stall you like a (BAN ME PLEASE).

3.b. Be defensive. Very defensive.

Which I suppose is a corollary to 3.a. (do you know what corollary means? I doubt it!) because if you're cool and use stall you won't have something that can simply OHKO Mew in all likelihood. I am talking about guys like Umbreon with Foul Play and Sableye to mes up SD Mew, these are the guys that can successfully defend against some variants of Mew and beat him one on one, possibly even countering him.

4. And should all else fail...

Which it really shouldn't if you strictly follow these guidelines...but if it somehow starts to set up and attack you, then have a bulky phazer. This is not really needed by the way for an average team, but if you really truly hate Mew then having something that can never be OHKO'd by his common moves and can then phaze him (like Snorlax or Suicune) can always be a last ditch effort. he might hurt you badly but at least your pride is alive, knowing that the psychotic baby cat freak mew has not just 6-0d you (although now a Chandelure probably will lol).

Is what I said true? Of course it is, why would I lie, how could I be mistaken! So ask yourself know, and I mean simply to inform you on Mew not persuade or convince you whether its broken, does having to do all this to safeguard yourself against Mew about 100% of the time mean Mew is broken? That you decide for yourself!!!

Are you really comparing Darmanitan, one of the most unilateral Pokemon in existence, to the single most unpredictable Pokemon in the tier? Unbelievable.

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Relax. The post I was replying to said that not many pokes can boast hitting Shaymin that hard with neutral moves. So I showed Darmanitan can hit mew that hard (same base 100 stats). I even said in my post I know they are wildly different; I was just comparing their damage output.

Also @ everyone: Can we stop pretending Mew is one of those sweepers that needs to OHKO everything in its path? It isn't; and if you're using it that way, you're using it wrong (that might explain why people seem to think Azelf is better???).

How exactly is Meloetta going to be effortlessly boosting on Mew when Psyshock actually hits it on its lower defense should the two end up in a boosting war (who BTW is not exactly finding a niche as a so called counter to Mew)? How is Sableye relevant of a threat to Ghost/Fighting coverage when Sableye's are often, and for good reason, physically defensive (even if it were specially defensive its still a solid 2 OHKO) so how is it exactly a hindrance to a special sweeper based Mew? The type coverages you mention are actually quite good and basically carry the relevant Steel/Dark coverage that would hinder Mew from its sweeps, and thanks to the metagame saturated with fighting types especially dominated by Heracross Steel/Dark is not exactly having such a field day and we are seeing a surge of poison types (namely Nidoqueen/Qwilfish/Crobat which check a lot of relevant threats) to check or counter said fighting types (which in turn is quite favorable to psychic coverage). I'm honestly confused with the accusation that Psychic is quite shitty in UU when I agree with Koko that it does have relevance in threatening fighting types but I add that it is just as relevant in that it threatens the poison types that are quickly becoming just as relevant as a defensive measure with the metagame. Hint more often than not we carry two Heracross checks is food for thought.

This statement is just plain wrong... Why on earth would you attempt to hit Cofagrigus who tends to be defensive on the physical side with Psyshock which would hit on its stronger defense when you most Mew would carry Shadow Ball which not only hits SE but on the weaker defense of Cofagrigus (or if not Shadow Ball a choice from one of the special moves in Mew's arsenal). And BTW have you played Cofa? I wouldn't exactly switch Cofa into a special attacker because I'd much rather he switch into a physical attacker so as to utilize mummy or use them as set up fodder given that there is a good shot they won't be hurting it much. Or hell Sableye on a special attacker!? Your scenarios just aren't very likely plays by a decent player, I'm not talking about good players but just decent, because these are quite obvious calls that you really shouldn't be doing naturally if you have a grasp of stats and coverage. At best I see these plays as being a really last ditch effort but in that case its no longer a case of Mew being broken as you simply being outplayed.

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Righto!
CM Meloetta beats Mew because Shadow Ball - SE coverage will almost always beat NVE STAB when it comes to damage. Assuming that both have boosted once, Mew has a 68% chance of being 1hko'd by Shadow Ball while only netting a 2hko with Psyshock in return. While it outspeeds, congrats, you've now ended up with a 6-7% hp Mew, or dead first turn if it's running LO in place of Lefties (again, that causes large bulk issues). In fact, Lefties only has a 0.39% chance to 2hko AFTER SR. At this point anything is capable of revenging it. In fact, if they end up in a boosting war then Mew needs +6 to 1hko with LO... and still no chance with Lefties on both sides. Feeling lucky enough that the opponent won't mash you while you do so, then wreck the rest of your team?

I see, then, we're not running Recover/Softboiled. Are we going to be assuming resist berries/LO for these calcs, or should I just go ahead and assume Lefties?

I carry 1 Heracross check intentionally. More often than not dedicating more than one Pokemon to check a given Pokemon is diverting too many resources (2 out of 6, cmon, gimme a break!) and if that Pokemon deserves it, well, do we need to say much more about metagame centralization? Mew, if nothing else, doesn't make me defecate in my lower garments when I have a somewhat weakened team.

About Cofagrigus:
I was ASSUMING 2 attacking moves, with Psyshock as STAB (since you're consistently talking about it over Psychic). If you're going to pack Shadow Ball, on the other hand, forget it. You still can't 1HKO without Leftovers and SR, anyway.
I actually never run Cofag because speed is so important for the core members of my team, so I mainly just whack it hard in the nuts and watch it go down to Darmanitan or something. Kind of like Mew, at least from what I've seen on the ladder. It's still important enough that I've planned counters and tactics for how to use it and stuff.

try NP Mew with some paralysis support and you will see the true potential of Mew. Having scarfed pokemon paralysed will almost guarantee a sweep because they are usual the pokemon that outspeed Mew. With 3 moves he has perfect coverage that can hit half the meta for SE. And the best part is that his coverage can be easily adapted to the team. Psychic-giga drain-fire blast or psychic-aura sphere-shadow ball. There are still a lot of other moves to use but these are imo the best coverage moves. And his ability to use every item along this, is so awesome.

I'm perfectly happy with the metagame right now. Mew is good but certainly not broken.

Just a quick question why do you think their is a true counter to mew?their isn't.Oh you found out its NP good for you with that things movepool(2nd biggest in the history of pokemon),have a good time figuring out the rest of the 2 moves(who uses mew w/o STAB?),It could be Aura Sphere and Fire Blast all the way to Giga Drain and Thunderbolt and more!The last time I laddered with NP Mew I used:NP/Psyshock/Dark Pulse/Aura Sphere LO(Standerd) watching evreybody switching in melloeta while I NP and take it out the next turn and basicly give me a free set up.And then right in the middle Stoped and changed the set to NP/Psyshock/Giga Drain/Surf With a Tanga berry(thank you koko for that idea that worked great!^_^)and it caught sooo many people of guard and won me a lot of games so,evrey 5 battes I changed my Mew set,that was the longest the longest laddering sesion ever,I used 20 diffrent sets(20*5=100 so 100 battles) ranging from double dance to a weird lure set(NP/WoW/Stealth Rock/Psyshock).And what I learned from that laddering session is that:Mew truly can not be checked or counterd because it can just tweak its set to combat checks and counters i.e. putting RP on the NP set to avoid revenge killing or dark pulse over shadow ball on the NP set for Melleota etc.Mew is broken in the sense that it is so versitile their are no true counters or no true checks,I am open to arguments to this because I am telling facts and I know I wont lose the argument.

I agree that the main reason Mew is so good is that it has no single counter. Nasty Plot loses to Snorlax and Sub/CM Meloetta, but both of them are beaten by Swords Dance. The only surefire way to know what set Mew is running is to let it set up, and that's never a good idea.

Snorlax doesn't beat NP Mew... Psyshock and Aura Sphere both 2HKO at +2. Nothing really counters NP Mew because it can either run Psyshock / Giga Drain / Fire Blast or Psychic / Dark Pulse / Aura Sphere or Psychic / Aura Sphere / Fire Blast. And you're not really going to know which one you're facing until you get hit by a coverage move which it has no reason to use unless its going to kill something with it... just something to think about. Lots of things check it, though.

Anyway I just got back from work and I worked all day yesterday too so if I ladder tonight I'll post some logs.

I agree that the main reason Mew is so good is that it has no single counter. Nasty Plot loses to Snorlax and Sub/CM Meloetta, but both of them are beaten by Swords Dance. The only surefire way to know what set Mew is running is to let it set up, and that's never a good idea.

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For the last time Snorlax and Melleota are NOT counters to NP they both lose to Aura Sphere Dark Pulse Respectivly and even if you know its NP or SD you still can never counter it without scouting its full set as people actualy can tweak their set!Thank you koko meybe people will actualy litsen to you!(I am basicly saying the same thing as you.

Righto!
CM Meloetta beats Mew because Shadow Ball - SE coverage will almost always beat NVE STAB when it comes to damage. Assuming that both have boosted once, Mew has a 68% chance of being 1hko'd by Shadow Ball while only netting a 2hko with Psyshock in return. While it outspeeds, congrats, you've now ended up with a 6-7% hp Mew, or dead first turn if it's running LO in place of Lefties (again, that causes large bulk issues). In fact, Lefties only has a 0.39% chance to 2hko AFTER SR. At this point anything is capable of revenging it. In fact, if they end up in a boosting war then Mew needs +6 to 1hko with LO... and still no chance with Lefties on both sides. Feeling lucky enough that the opponent won't mash you while you do so, then wreck the rest of your team?

I see, then, we're not running Recover/Softboiled. Are we going to be assuming resist berries/LO for these calcs, or should I just go ahead and assume Lefties?

I carry 1 Heracross check intentionally. More often than not dedicating more than one Pokemon to check a given Pokemon is diverting too many resources (2 out of 6, cmon, gimme a break!) and if that Pokemon deserves it, well, do we need to say much more about metagame centralization? Mew, if nothing else, doesn't make me defecate in my lower garments when I have a somewhat weakened team.

About Cofagrigus:
I was ASSUMING 2 attacking moves, with Psyshock as STAB (since you're consistently talking about it over Psychic). If you're going to pack Shadow Ball, on the other hand, forget it. You still can't 1HKO without Leftovers and SR, anyway.
I actually never run Cofag because speed is so important for the core members of my team, so I mainly just whack it hard in the nuts and watch it go down to Darmanitan or something. Kind of like Mew, at least from what I've seen on the ladder. It's still important enough that I've planned counters and tactics for how to use it and stuff.

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Its a 2 OHKO with Psyshock, no item boosts, (49-58%), should you opt to switch Cofa into a +2 Psyshock attack... Again its not safe, and even then I wouldn't switch Cofa into Mew period unless I knew its set because Stallbreaker or NP Mew are not particularly favorable matches for Cofa.

Edit: I do question the tactics because they aren't something a player with a decent grasp of Cofa would necessarily play into, and it was just an example much like trying to use Sableye to switch into an incoming special attack (Shadow Ball may be neutral but at +2 and with Sable's bulk there is a chance OHKO). Again at best these plays are only likely if you were pushed at the end of your rope but such scenarios aren't something considered in a suspect thread because its more of a matter of being outplayed.

As for Meloetta its much quicker to get into +6 with Mew because its +2 boost vs +1 moreover Meloetta is switching in by your assumption and being outsped it will most likely take a +2 attack before any boosts occur (or it can opt to boost further if its ballsy enough). Mew would end up being in the advantageous position. And even if Mew did fail to kill Meloetta she'd be heavily crippled ripe for cleaning up, which is pretty good support. Though I believe you only mentioned Meloetta since you wanted to posit it as a hard counter to Psychic/Ghost coverage of NP Mew and arguably it isn't one as the scenarios and even calcs you mentioned show Mew can come out on top 1 vs 1... So I'd just drop this. Or rather I'd just drop the idea of Mew lacking coverage its just silly because its movepool lends itself well to coverage. Moreover, its not easy to hard wall Mew with its coverage or set of moves and NP in particular for the offensive variants because it is a mixed set thanks to Psyshock, psychic type attacks is in no way a point against Mew to use its STAB because it does well in the meta, along with coverage.

As for not carrying 2 Heracross checks I find it hard to believe because one way or another people do tend to bring two, even if that wasn't in their mind, with either a posion+ghost or a bulky water+poison (there are more combinations but point is you tend to end up one way or another with two checks - one dedicated one and the other by bulk as the metagame is shifting to bulky offense). Either way there does tend to be two checks to a Heracross that isn't necessarily a strain to team building, it just tends to happen with team building as pointed out in arguments regarding Heracross before. Arguably it does give you more freedom to bring two checks rather than a hard counter at times but that would be a different discussion altogether point is the intended Heracross check tends to have poison typing which Psychic types do take advantage of well, so Psychic is not exactly a shitty type in UU or if its not poison you've often got ghost types which Psychic type does hit neutrally (and often on their weaker defense).

While the problem with the idea of assuming what item Mew runs is the same as assuming what set it tends to run, its too easily tailor made the berries are just a good example of how that versatility and unpredictability can easily lead it to a quick advantage.

Relax. The post I was replying to said that not many pokes can boast hitting Shaymin that hard with neutral moves. So I showed Darmanitan can hit mew that hard (same base 100 stats). I even said in my post I know they are wildly different; I was just comparing their damage output.

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This is what I was just complaining about with Chimera because the example your bringing up is something purposely skewed against Mew that its not exactly a good way about in trying to discuss a suspect. For one clearly not very many things neutral to fire can necessarily take an LO+Reckless Flare Blitz from Darmanitan in the first place. Secondly, scarved Darms tend to be more popular as 95 speed isn't all that reliable especially off such a frail mon, so the more likely calc if you do insist on using Darm's Reckless boosted STAB Flare Blitz coming off one of the highest attack stat in UU would be one without the additional LO boost. You claim not many can boast hitting Shaymin with hard neutral moves but using Darm fully utilizing his offense for a calc is not at all convincing or necessarily even close to being objective because that is hardly a standard that should be used.

I've been playing around with NP Mew, and it was okay. The bulk was quite impressive, allowing it to usually tank a strong hit, and was useful when setting up a Nasty Plot boost. However, it's really lacking in firepower, even with Life Orb - it NEEDS those Nasty Plot boosts. It's also quite slow for my taste as a set-up cleaner - it's more of a wall-breaker than a cleaner from my play experience. However, NP Azelf can wallbreak AND sweep games later on. I used NP Mew in two of my teams, one of which I replaced NP Azelf for NP Mew, and it just didn't match in terms of the ease in breaking down the opponent's teams. Azelf hits hard (and fast) from the get-go; Mew doesn't - it needs that extra turn of NP or a lot of team support before it can barrel through teams.

Basically, I wasn't quite impressed with NP Mew's performance. Sure you can give it paralysis support for it to kick-ass, but that can be said for nearly any other sweeper, like LO Darmanitan or SD Heracross. I'mma try his SD and BP sets soon.

I've tested it extensively now. It's great. That's been covered. It's really true. It's probably the best Pokemon out there when you just need a very specific niche, that is, of a bulky Baton Passer/Set up sweeper. Does it do any particular thing in a way that nothing else in the tier does uniquely? Eh, not really. Well, I had a post about this, but it's since been deleted because I derped on a format.

First things first:
@Machi: CM Meloetta WILL beat Lefties Mew 1-on-1. Psyshock is a 3HKO at +2, and that's just a bit more than a +2 Mew will do to a +1 SDef Meloetta with Dark Pulse, so there's that point gone. Inversely Meloetta can easily 2HKO unboosted, and has a hefty chance to KO at +1 after any sort of prior damage, be it Spikes or SR, or even some other Pokemon smacking it with a neutral move and getting out straight after.

While Meloetta may not be able to swap directly into Mew, Mew definitely can't in return - and if they swap in at the same time, Meloetta is guaranteed to beat the stuffing out of Mew by using Calm Mind twice and OHKOing cleanly with Shadow Ball while Mew can do a 3HKO at best after factoring in Meloetta's Leftovers. Hell, not even a +6 Psyshock has a chance to OHKO full health Meloetta without Life Orb - and remember, LO means that Mew will be dying at +1. If NOTHING ELSE then they are at least checks to each other. Let's drop this once we've settled that they can in fact beat each other given the right circumstances, and that said circumstances are likely to happen both ways.

I'll acknowledge that the current metagame often has teams packing 2 unintentional checks to Heracross... but is it because it's a centralizing factor of just because, in the end, it's not all that hard to check it? I mean, any scarfer above base 85 will do the job nicely, as will most bulky waters excluding Blastoise and Suicune... it doesn't have to be an defensive check, remember.

I will agree that is its incredibly easy to tailor-make, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It allows for more interesting tactics than the metagame would otherwise allow, as Mew can be either a ferocious attacking force or the ultimate team supporter.

Sorry guys; I've been working full time so I literally haven't had time to ladder since I last posted so... no logs :(

Anyway, I'm actually posting to let you guys know about a second opportunity to vote with the Senate. Here's what I'm looking for:

A screenshot of your current ranking on the UU ladder. Please use the /ranking command, not what is shown on the ladder, so I can see your win/loss ratio. I strongly suggest you try to get your Glicko2 above 2000 and your deviation below ± 60, by the way ^_^

A list of your UU tournaments and past ladder accomplishments that you consider relevant.

A short paragraph explaining why a past suspect should have or should not have been banned. I encourage you to include reasoning for both sides if you feel it'll make your point of view clearer, but do pick a side, please.

A strong UU forum and #genvuu presence. This means the more active you are in the community, the more likely you are to get a spot.

The deadline to apply is December 16th, at 11:59 PM.

NOTE: If you applied to vote with the Senate previously, you may use the same paragraph you already sent in if you so desire.

I believe that Mew should be kept in the metagame. What it brings to the tier is a roll that is unfilled by any other pokemon in the game. It can do whatever you need it to do. Mew is great because its 100 across the board stats give it OK stats in all areas, but without investment none of them are particularly good. And you can only invest so much into it. This makes Mew either somewhat frail or unable to grab those KO's and missing them by a few mere percent, that is if your are trying to evenly distribute your stats. But it can boost up all of its stats to help with this (Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Amnesia, Nasty Plot, ECT.....) but these sets are all shut down by fast taunt users like Froslass, Prankster Tornadus and Prankster Sableye. It can also run a nice support set but these are usually easy to set up on if you have the ability to tank a status and not care (Eg. Lum Berry Kingdra, Shed Skin Scrafty, ect...)

But these are just some of the reasons why Mew isn't as all powerful as it could be and therefore not a real threat to the metagame. But the biggest reason why it should be kept in the metagame is because it gives players and battles surprises. It keeps you guessing as to what it is going to be. It keeps things exciting and battles from becoming bland and stale as we have seen in so many other tiers. Mew fits into any team and fills any roll. But none of these rolls cannot be filled more easily by other pokemon. So using Mew is a strategic play, it is not a powerful pokemon you just slap on your team to make it work. To use it properly takes skill, its not like a scarfhera that just spams moves and doesn't take much skill to use. Mew is a difficult beast to master in use and in the mind games it plays with your opponents.

For all of these reasons I vote for Mew to continue to stay in the metagame. To remind us that Pokemon is and always will be a game of unexpected surprises.

Was there ever a time tiering leaders said no counters=broken=ban time? If there was I wish those days existed still...

I don't think I'm wrong when I say most people are leaning against a ban, but even if you are I hope you can consider what I have to say with an open mind.

Mew has no counters and extraordinarily few if any checks, period the end. Can we agree on this?

Incidentally 0/0 Meloetta has basically 0 chance to beat NP Dark pulse Mew one on one because +2 LO Dark Pulse does over 60% to +1 Meloetta. They don't check each other at all, if one of them set up a single boost for free the other has no chance to win. This is pretty much a fact.

But certain Mew sets do have counters like how Sableye almost always counters SD or stallbreaker Mew while NP Mew can be always phazed out by um...Slowking. Baton Pass can be foiled by Roar or Dragon tail depending if mew has Taunt or Sub.

The problem I see is one Mew counter can fail spectacularly if it comes in on the wrong mew set. Go back to Sableye for one moment. You assume your opponent was running SD Mew since he had no other form of priority on his team, not a bad assumption at all. And then he uses NP instead of SD.

WHOOPS!

So now he can use Fire Blast to murder you or Giga Drain to heal and hurt and Dark Pulse will certainly hurt you too. Not only did you lose what could have been an integral member of your team you are facing a +2 mew who probably is still at 50% or so.

That's only part of the reason why Mew is broken.

Another is it's absurd bulk. Let's go back to the NP Mew scenario one more time please. You are saying to yourself, I am sure, "hilarious why are you assuming that we would let Mew set up if we didn't have a reliable answer to him?" And that is a totally legitamate concern, most Pokemon that can ravage teams after a turn of set up often do not have the bulk to do the actual set up - just for instance take Agility PZ who even with significant HP investment is still too frail to reliably set up.

Mew though does not face that problem because of his bulk which allows him to take hits from any defensive Pokemon as well as unboosted moves from relatively powerful attackers. Raikou's Thunderbolt might have KO'd PZ but it certainly won't instantly kill Mew.

So there are times that Mew can set up on almost every team unless you are trying out Mono-dark or some other stupid theme.

And to address the latest arguments to keep Mew in UU we must address this whole idea of diversity, of excitement. Mew makes games exciting so he should be allowed in UU.

Really?

I was under the impression that playing excessively conservatively when I see Mew on my opponent's team made me have less daring plays only in order to try and counter the counterless Mew and then make the game less exciting. But that's just me.

Mew has no counters. Mew can easily score surprise cheap KOs if you don't guess the right set. Mew is almost the bulkiest sweeper in all of UU. Mew forces you to play conservatively, or as I put in my Mew 101 post with almost only strong attackers. And you know what basically everything I said is a fact not an opinion.

The thing I don't like about banning Mew is that it removes an element of excitement and unpredictability in the metagame that's nearly impossible to replicate.

In retrospect, banning Salamence from the OU tier in Gen IV was a bad idea because it led to a boring metagame where every team looked the same and every strategy was similar. Before he was banned, he kept every type of team on its toes, and prevented people from repeating the same autopilot strategies.

Mew is similar to Gen IV OU Salamence in this way. Yes, it's slightly OP, but it's also unique in that it keeps teams on their toes, and prevents people from winning by just turning their brains off and doing the same stuff every game. I might not be able to justify its existence with pure logic, but throughout my experiences, Mew in UU just feels right.