I'm assuming 90% of you people saying he shouldn't say anything and just keep it to himself are the bad people getting comments on how to improve. There is no reason to not take advice, regardless of how it came across. Sitting there being a butthurt baby because someone hurt your feelers over poor game performance is pathetic. You're dragging the raid down, and its always a lot more than just 1 person. If everyone improved a bit, took a little advice, there wouldn't be this problem anymore, because the lfr run would go smooth, people would be happy, not feel the need to comment. But no, fight the system, stay bad, rise up and fight those who wish to improve you so we can all whine and bitch and fail for eternity

I'm assuming 90% of you people saying he shouldn't say anything and just keep it to himself are the bad people getting comments on how to improve. There is no reason to not take advice, regardless of how it came across. Sitting there being a butthurt baby because someone hurt your feelers over poor game performance is pathetic. You're dragging the raid down, and its always a lot more than just 1 person. If everyone improved a bit, took a little advice, there wouldn't be this problem anymore, because the lfr run would go smooth, people would be happy, not feel the need to comment. But no, fight the system, stay bad, rise up and fight those who wish to improve you so we can all whine and bitch and fail for eternity

Well you know what they say about assumption being the mother of all fuck ups? We could apply the same logic to this thread why have you not read it before joining in?

Outside of the first weeks of a new raid being introduced when no-one really knows the tactics are does not have the gear nine out ten LFR runs go without issue. Someone doing 50k or even 30k DPS makes very little difference to the time it takes to complete the run and pointing out the player's low DPS is counter intuitive. In an ideal world the game would each and every player to a decent standard the reality is that it does not. If you expect every player to play to a decent level when join a random group then it is your expectations that are unreasonable and even more so if you believe that players will rise to meet them by offering them advice in public.

There's a difference between a group where individuals have selected each other individually and one where inviduals have selected each other at large. The first confers a general will; the second confers a general means. At the end of the day, if one wants to focus a lot of energy and time on becoming a player in LFR who does relatively high damage, then that doesn't mean that others desire to do so themselves as well. That others may not want to do what you want them to, well, that is part of life. If the interests are not shared, then there will not be any sacrifices.

If someone cannot etablish a self-providing contract with others, then he will not be found in the environment (of LFR). Of course, that it is an online, quick form with loose bonds and poor information about others (who's doing what) means that it generates into being a quick-fire, do or get lost, renewal-rewarding scheme where the focus is on the immediate consequences with a focus on immediate value.

Basically, probably almost everyone is in there to get something for themselves; and wisely so, because otherwise they would be on the short end of the terms everytime. If there was only the same group of players of a limited quantity everytime, then a team could be formed where the individuals chooses each other individually and a common will could be etablished among them, however far it would go.

It is not so in LFR since noone chooses each other individually, but only by participating in a larger uniform group, where their common trait is that they fill the requirements to join LFR and have desired to do do. Outside of that nothing connects them together regurlarly and so, each member that one meets in LFR is not one that could be suspected to share a specific will with oneself, but only one that could be expected to have their own specific will tailored to their individual conditions.

Thus, LFR necessarily degenerates into a system where the lowest common denominator rules, which is that everyone wants their own will seen become to fruition. That is natural; it is what serves the individual best and means that players that can not provide for themselves in a manner found adequate by others in the system will be weeded out. Of course, it may also mean that the process is hap-hazardly and the result is valued over the process. There's no need to pick anyone up who's slacking, and really, there's not much use either.

People who get offended in the game over advice, critical or friendly advice alike, need to stop and think for a secound. Firstly, I've not been in a single raid instance (ethier normal, flex, LFR) were being middle of the pack brought you flak. So if you're getting constantly chewed out for being bottom rung dps, then you've seriously got to step back and realise that you're doing something critically wrong. If you don't want to get spotlighted and pointed out, then take responsibility for yourself and do a bit of research outside of the game and see what you're doing incorrectly.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think it accomplishes anything to be a complete jerk about it ethier, (that goes for both the underperformer and the people who point them out). But honestly? Just like real life, you eventually have to take stock and realize that it must be something on your end.

Furthermore, i don't understand why you wouldn't want to be able to do the best possible, regardless of item level. Even when leveling i do my best to contribute as much as i can to a group. It makes everyones experience much more enjoyable for literally zero additonal effort. Its suprisingly MORE FUN to do more dps, healing, and to tank more things at the same time.

Nobody goes through life feeling truely statisfyed doing a D- F performance, why is it somehow okay in a game were you're invested (finanically, timewise)?

That being said, the repeated point i see in the thread holds true for me as well. I have absolutely no reason to touch LFR anymore with the additon of flex and a strong capable raid team with plentiful alts who clear flex multiple times per week. The only way i see LFR going is down, both in required skill to clear and average skill of the players who frequent it. This worries me, this is going to lead to the overall decline of player skill in WoW in general. If this comes to fruition, it could lead to the eventual decline in difficulty of new normal and heroic raids. I really don't want to see wow head down this path, I'd rather see LFR removed and more deveolpment time added to Flex, Normals, and Heroics. With the addition of Flex, it could be a total replacement for LFR while enforcing the need for VoiP communication and learning, it has the flexiability to be fit into anyones schedule (you can pickup multiple groups every week) you can go in with a wide range of raid totals. I'd love to see wow move in this direction.

However, i also see people requesting 540+ item level for flex raids in OQ, you don't even have the option to communicate your knowledge with achievement links or the like. So once again it comes back around to people being constructive and helpful when problems arise. Its ethier that or go back to the WOTLK model were you built up your experience over time with lowskill pugs and progressed from week to week, pug to pug. It sounds bad, but was actually quite fun and some of my fondest memories are of these times.

This is being sliced from a few philosophical angles...which is starting to read like soapboxing.

The honest truth is that offering advice implies you know more, and people strongly dislike that. No one wants to feel inferior to anyone else (unless they are addicted to that feeling, but that's a completely different can of worms) but especially a stranger. This is one of the tangled webs our psyches weave in an effort for us to maintain the illusion that we're above-average in everything. Any psychologist will tell you the same.

Knowing that, you need to build a report with someone before offering advice. You cannot be a stranger.
If the person doesn't want to talk when you try to build a report, leave the person alone. Move on.

I think you will find that Earth is in fact spherical and round is a description of a two dimensional object thus in order for the Earth to actually be round it would indeed need to be flat. Thus you are arguing from an incorrect assumption of fact.

No it is not.

So unless someone conforms with the standards you deem acceptable you will bully them out of the group? Well we got there in the end.

I put "round" in parenthesis for a reason. Again, its arrogant to compare your opinion to fact.

Embarrassment is something you allow.

No, its not bullying.

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Originally Posted by Compstance

Alright, I'm just gonna go ahead and put it out there.

The thing that has changed is that LFR has given every player the ability to feel like they're a "raider." This gives every player the potential to feel like they "know what they're doing" so what was commonly referred to an "elitist mentality" among the best players in the world is now found in the worst players in the world.

This "I'm a raider, I know what I'm doing" gives the worst players in the game the feeling that they can tell others how to play their class. Thus, we find in LFR, baddies are arrogantly calling out other baddies, not realizing that they're all fucking retarded to begin with.

This consistent "calling out" of bad players by other bad players causes a numbness in the community and nobody wants to take advice from anyone, because they're no good either. And then we find that when an actual decent player makes a comment to someone, the player is so used to assholes and baddies trying to blame him/tell him what to do, that his natural reaction is now "fuck off."

In the past, we found that if someone was in raiding gear they were looked up to and advice could be given easier, because the player knew that that person knew what they were doing. Now, however, every one thinks they have what it takes to offer advice to every one else because they were able to make it through LFR and get some purples.

Thus, you find the warlock doing 50k DPS feeling like he needs no help from anyone, because he has "full epix" and doesn't need your help.

I put "round" in parenthesis for a reason. Again, its arrogant to compare your opinion to fact.

Embarrassment is something you allow.

No, its not bullying.

You can put "round" in whatever you like it is still factually incorrect. It is not my opinion that the Earth is spherical it is a proven scientific fact.

If someone runs up behind you and pulls your pants down in front of a group of people that would be the fault of the person who is now naked from the waist down for being allowing themselves to be embarrassed? Embarrassment is an emotion that people are unable to control and knowingly acting in a manner that will cause embarrassment is not a desirable trait.

Yes it is. You as the bully do not get to decide whether your actions make the person on the end of your behaviour should feel bullied or not.

You can put "round" in whatever you like it is still factually incorrect. It is not my opinion that the Earth is spherical it is a proven scientific fact.

If someone runs up behind you and pulls your pants down in front of a group of people that would be the fault of the person who is now naked from the waist down for being allowing themselves to be embarrassed? Embarrassment is an emotion that people are unable to control and knowingly acting in a manner that will cause embarrassment is not a desirable trait.

Yes it is. You as the bully do not get to decide whether your actions make the person on the end of your behaviour should feel bullied or not.

Let's say you are on a construction site and work hard all day and a coworker shows up drunk and does a very poor job, will you call him out or not?

He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

You can put "round" in whatever you like it is still factually incorrect. It is not my opinion that the Earth is spherical it is a proven scientific fact.

If someone runs up behind you and pulls your pants down in front of a group of people that would be the fault of the person who is now naked from the waist down for being allowing themselves to be embarrassed? Embarrassment is an emotion that people are unable to control and knowingly acting in a manner that will cause embarrassment is not a desirable trait.

Yes it is. You as the bully do not get to decide whether your actions make the person on the end of your behaviour should feel bullied or not.

LFR is one of most reasons, why i still consider to upgrade my account or not...

See all your expiriences with LFR, i really worried about that... Also Flexible can be even worse, than LFR?

Just wanted to relay my experience this week. On Monday and Wednesday I did all of Mogu'shan_Vaults and half of Heart Of Fear. Granted most likely were overgeared for the content but we only had 1 wipe. For the most part there was very little talking. However, there was some still some snarkiness occasionally going on. First was on Blade Lord Ta'yak where most of the raid died but a few people still finished it off and downed the boss. One of the survivors thought we should all delete our toons. On the Wednesday version of the same fight someone died and started bitching but someone shut him up. The actually wipe was on Garalon and at first a couple were mad but when it came out that we were short a few healers people calmed down. We got a few people to come in and we downed with no further problems.

To make a long story short yes some shit happens in LFR but I think it gets overblown a bit. I'll find out in the next few days as I get into TOT and SOO.

I don't think it's so much a point of feelings in other guy, though it obviously stirs them in him and everyone else, but much more the setting of being offered advice on things to achieve a goal that one does not have and having been done so for reasons that one does share. It trangresses borders where other people's will are being protected and tries to instate one's own will instead. If one did not want to, perhaps illegimately by some rules, enforce one's will on others in that situation then there would be no problem of misunderstanding.

Besides this being blown up quite large, I cannot see how anyone were truly hurt here in a deeper sense in the OP, and I cannot see what is insulting in th OP's remark nor what is terrible in the other guy's remark, but it is a breach of boundaries and that is where the confusion arises. For example, if you go to your neighbor and say "your flowers are lower than they were last year, do you want any advice on how to grow them taller" it is also a breach of boundaries, since you desires to trangress the border between his and your will. He must protect his will, so the trangression is warded off with hostility which comes easier from feelings of anger.

Let's say you are on a construction site and work hard all day and a coworker shows up drunk and does a very poor job, will you call him out or not?

As with any place of work I would imagine that there would be clear policies that not only to deal with standards expected from employees but health and safety laws to protect the safety of those on the construction site which an intoxicated employee would be in breach of. Construction sites are dangerous places and a drunk person would be a danger not only to themselves but others in such a case I would no issue with dealing with a drunk co-worker as seen fit by the policies set out by my employer.

LFR is neither a place of work nor a construction site and the performance of others is not a danger to mine or anyone else's safety nor is a fellow player in LFR under any contractual obligation to perform as a fellow employee would.

Let's say you are on a construction site and work hard all day and a coworker shows up drunk and does a very poor job, will you call him out or not?

I do agree with your basic premise, unfortunately however, the fact is we're dealing with a player base that does, in fact, pay to play however they choose. Even if they play badly, that's their right. That's why we're able to boot people, even if the social aspect of booting people is so completely fucked that it backfires on itself.

Is it "right" that those of us who desire to play our characters properly are held back by those who don't? Not at all. But that is the world in which we play.

I do agree with your basic premise, unfortunately however, the fact is we're dealing with a player base that does, in fact, pay to play however they choose. Even if they play badly, that's their right. That's why we're able to boot people, even if the social aspect of booting people is so completely fucked that it backfires on itself.

Is it "right" that those of us who desire to play our characters properly are held back by those who don't? Not at all. But that is the world in which we play.

frankly, for me, the argument that they pay $15 per month to play so they play however they want don't hold water in a community based game. It's the same that answering your cell in theater, because you pay your ticket, you have the right to be there.

No matter how polite you try to be that sentence is an outright "You are a bad player/afker".

Example:"Hey girl-I-Just-Met-on-the-pub.I see that your hips are the size of a trailer wheel...can I suggest you some change in your diet? I can help you if you want".

Well...I dont need to tell you how this is gonna end

If you really want to help you cant make general statements like that but instead concentrating on specific details you noticed so the other player dont feel ashamed for your words: "Hey...I saw you clipped some embers...do you know about this addon that helps you...etc" "Hey...Is there any change i dont know of? Most destruction gem for crit but you are gemmed/reforged for mastery".

A direct "Youre doing it wrong" will 90% of the times offend the pride of the player(and we wow players are the most incredible arrogant selfish human beings that ever walked the earth).

Bad analogy, unlike the scrubby LFR player we are referring to, the rather expansive lady you use in your example isn't holding the group down with his bad play. If it doesn't affect me chances are I won't make a comment on it. But if there are bad players in my LFR (which is 100% of the time) then I will let them know they are bad, they can react to it how they will.

Well have to be honest here. I don't think I'll be running LFR this patch. I'm currently not a member of raidgroup (I'm a backup for a friend's raidgroup during the weeks that I'm not working nights) so my current raiding is running flex with friends guild/pug and the occasional normal raiding.
And let me tell you; I haven't had this much fun in a while when playing WoW.

Even the flex pugs are enjoyable. Even though many bosses might not go down, there's far less badmouthing and PMSing going on.

I believe that LFR will fade away in time, to the point it gets removed. Maybe dungeons come back in the gearing paradigm (for example dropping last tier Flex-level loot as catchup).

And perhaps made a bit harder, like End Time dungeons. Those were at a good difficulty for LFD, if you were low geared.

You can put "round" in whatever you like it is still factually incorrect. It is not my opinion that the Earth is spherical it is a proven scientific fact.

If someone runs up behind you and pulls your pants down in front of a group of people that would be the fault of the person who is now naked from the waist down for being allowing themselves to be embarrassed? Embarrassment is an emotion that people are unable to control and knowingly acting in a manner that will cause embarrassment is not a desirable trait.

Yes it is. You as the bully do not get to decide whether your actions make the person on the end of your behaviour should feel bullied or not.

No, you compared your opining to a fact, and that is false. I put "round" in parenthesis for a reason, and its not because I think its 2D.

Embarrassment is something you allow. Some people would not be embarrassed by that, and some would.

It is not bullying.

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Originally Posted by Tenver

I don't think it's so much a point of feelings in other guy, though it obviously stirs them in him and everyone else, but much more the setting of being offered advice on things to achieve a goal that one does not have and having been done so for reasons that one does share. It trangresses borders where other people's will are being protected and tries to instate one's own will instead. If one did not want to, perhaps illegimately by some rules, enforce one's will on others in that situation then there would be no problem of misunderstanding.

Besides this being blown up quite large, I cannot see how anyone were truly hurt here in a deeper sense in the OP, and I cannot see what is insulting in th OP's remark nor what is terrible in the other guy's remark, but it is a breach of boundaries and that is where the confusion arises. For example, if you go to your neighbor and say "your flowers are lower than they were last year, do you want any advice on how to grow them taller" it is also a breach of boundaries, since you desires to trangress the border between his and your will. He must protect his will, so the trangression is warded off with hostility which comes easier from feelings of anger.

What goal do you have in mind when clicking to join an LFR?

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Originally Posted by Vankrys

frankly, for me, the argument that they pay $15 per month to play so they play however they want don't hold water in a community based game. It's the same that answering your cell in theater, because you pay your ticket, you have the right to be there.

Let's say you are on a construction site and work hard all day and a coworker shows up drunk and does a very poor job, will you call him out or not?

It's not about if you call him out or not. It's more about "how" you call him out. Do you do it to embarrass him more and make him defensive? Or do you do it in a way that he has an opportunity to correct himself?