2009.06.18 - Workshop 18

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The following is the transcript of the workshop for June 18th 2009.

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello gaya!Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?Scathach Rhiadra: fine thank you, and you?Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks :)Gaya Ethaniel: I read one of your logs that made me think about stuff.Scathach Rhiadra: oh?Gaya Ethaniel: 2009.06.13 01:00 - Seperate Worlds & GroupsGaya Ethaniel: This one :)Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)Scathach Rhiadra: ah yes:)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)Pila Mulligan: hi Stim, Gaya and ScathGaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila and Eliza :)Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, ScathEliza Madrigal: Pila again :)Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila, ElizaPila Mulligan: :)Eliza Madrigal: Hello Stim :)Gaya Ethaniel: wb Stim :)Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)Stim Morane: Hi everyoneFefonz Quan: Hello Gaya, Stim, Scath, Eliza, PIla :)Pila Mulligan: hi FonzyScathach Rhiadra: Hello FefonzPila Mulligan: hi Stim :)Stim Morane: hi PilaPila Mulligan: hi WesterWester Kiranov: hi pila, eliza, fef, gaya, scath, stimEliza Madrigal: Hi Fefonz. WesterScathach Rhiadra: Hello WesterStim Morane: Hi WesterFefonz Quan: hey WesterGaya Ethaniel: Hello Wester :)Stim Morane: If Mick doesn't show up, we'll have to go get him.Scathach Rhiadra: :)Stim Morane: Does anyone know how to do that?Wester Kiranov: he probably enjoying a cigar somewhere ;)Gaya Ethaniel: :)Eliza Madrigal: heheStim Morane: I hope so.Pila Mulligan: I think we need to hire some one in the UKPila Mulligan: to go get himStim Morane: But we need him to drop by to let us know.Stim Morane: OK, well, let's get started.Gaya Ethaniel: Yes he's been doing the homework alright.Stim Morane: OK, goodGaya Ethaniel: [He said]Stim Morane: Let's start today with a quick update on how our OTHER volunteer experimenters (Gaya, Scathach, Wester) are doing.Stim Morane: Any comments?Wester Kiranov: We all have reports in the wikiGaya Ethaniel: Could I quickly check?Stim Morane: OK, read them. THanks very much!Stim Morane: There's much to consider ...Stim Morane: Basically, if you find a point of connection between these very practical, concrete personal experiences, and the more traditional points I've been raising, great.Stim Morane: I know it's difficult to interpret some of this traditional stuff sometimes.Stim Morane: And yet, "thinking about thinking" is indeed hard.Stim Morane: :)Gaya Ethaniel nods.Scathach Rhiadra: :)Stim Morane: the satisfaction angle Wester mentions is also crucialStim Morane: It seems if we do not do some sort of practice, we miss the point of these teachings.Stim Morane: But if we do some practice, we may end up making ourselves feel even worse!Stim Morane: Would we rather be cluelessly distracted by life, or perturbed by what we find when we investigate?Stim Morane: I don't think this is an easy thing to resolve, sometimes.Stim Morane: And being an ethical consumer is certainly a big challenge!Gaya Ethaniel nods ...Wester Kiranov: It's a subtle one, tooWester Kiranov: and very easy to get stuck inStim Morane: yesStim Morane: Yes, many levelsStim Morane: Thanks for the reports.Stim Morane: Fefonz, are you wondering when we'll get around to discussing what you had in mind re "codependent arising"?Fefonz Quan: no.Stim Morane: :)Stim Morane: :)Stim Morane: OKFefonz Quan: i practice patience :)Stim Morane: I see.Wester Kiranov: :)Stim Morane: Well, there is a connection between these wikis and the traditional teachingStim Morane: And I hope we'll see more and more of that going forward.Stim Morane: Any additional comments from the volunteers, before we jump into today's bit?Gaya Ethaniel: I was reminded of a saying by a friend after the cigarette experiment, "you are stronger than you think are you." :)Stim Morane: Do you agree?Fefonz Quan: (agreeing will be paradoxical :))Stim Morane: :)Gaya Ethaniel: I think certainly for myself, I sort of started to become more afraid in general.Stim Morane: OhStim Morane: Why?Gaya Ethaniel: Some said it's age, you get old and you know the fear etc etc.Gaya Ethaniel: Burnt once twice shy - is that the saying?Stim Morane: YesStim Morane: well I would agree with your friend.Stim Morane: But I know it's hard sometimes to demonstrate the strength involvedStim Morane: I'm interested in commenting on ways outStim Morane: we are often deeply enmeshed in trapsStim Morane: Is it OK to move on to that bit, or should we continue with the fear angle immediately?Wester Kiranov: both are fine with mePila Mulligan: I was curious about the fear Scath mentionedPila Mulligan: alsoPila Mulligan: wonderng how much of it is ant aversionScathach Rhiadra: mmm, I think that was just fear of being bitten:)Stim Morane: OKStim Morane: :)Fefonz Quan: yes, fearStim Morane: it's a slightly funny situation, because the traditions I'm beginning to introduce actually provoke a lot of fear in some practitionersFefonz Quan: expose and tehn handle i guessStim Morane: well ... launching in ...Stim Morane: OK. So we've discussed the notion that the 1st traditional take on codependence involves learning to see what tends to happen, the basic pattern constituting the cycle of samsara.Stim Morane: To expand on this, perhaps we could cheat a bit and summarize the traditional 12-link sequence as follows:we unwittingly drift in to something, then buy in more emphatically, then get stung or grabbed by it, then get taken for a ride, then get dumped, leaving seeds of unknowing for the next time.Stim Morane: Then the cycle repeats, with the first round setting up the unawakeness for the next, etc etc.Stim Morane: I could add more steps, but perhaps that's not necessary for our present purposes.Stim Morane: This pattern, this account of "what happens", is temporal ... it's seen to be on the level of events, like the representation offered by Buddhaghosha I mentioned last week.Stim Morane: These 5 steps are my own short version of the famous 12 links. I could add more steps, but perhaps that's not necessary. You probably get something of the idea.Stim Morane: Can you see your own life as illustrating that sort of cycle?Gaya Ethaniel: YesEliza Madrigal nodsScathach Rhiadra nodsFefonz Quan: yepStim Morane: obviously I'm not claiming all of life is like that.Stim Morane: AT least, not on the obvious level ...Fefonz Quan: yes, sometimes you get dumped right away :)Stim Morane: But the ancient tradition I'm glossing on says it's a pervasive characteristicStim Morane: Yes, true fefonzStim Morane: :)Stim Morane: perhaps that's betterStim Morane: :)Gaya Ethaniel: One of my examples involves with my identifying with a type of personality/person.Stim Morane: say moreGaya Ethaniel: I think my judgement gets clouded with my identification with 'victim' 'minority' or 'under dogs' etc.Stim Morane: I seeStim Morane: Sounds rightGaya Ethaniel: Rather than step back and see the situation, my feelings get in the way.Stim Morane: can you see the pattern soon enough and clearly enough to resist?Gaya Ethaniel: The most recent example is of fourth since I become aware of 'selves' so ... getting somewhere now I think.Stim Morane: goodGaya Ethaniel: I didn't resist this time, just saw the pattern afterwards.Stim Morane: still, that's very goodStim Morane: as I mentioned earlier, we should start by just noticing moreGaya Ethaniel: Not pleasant though Stim.Gaya Ethaniel: :)Stim Morane: We can emphasize the hard stuff laterStim Morane: no, probably not pleasantStim Morane: But in the longer run, there's a positive benefitGaya Ethaniel: ok :)Stim Morane: The traditional teaching could also be seen on much more subtle levels regarding what happens with mind, perceptions, sense of self, etc. These are subtle factors, arising and being replaced in fractions of a second, or seconds or minutes.Stim Morane: For contemplatives, the idea here on every level is to break the chain, the pattern of links, by learning how they go, seeing the pattern in your own life, and declining to follow it.Stim Morane: But to take the contemplative Way further, to see more of what is actually there, beyond the fact that it's a cycle of links of unknowing and unfreedom, one needs to go beyond the "cycle" or pattern aspect, laid out in endless temporal succession.Stim Morane: One must learn to see more of what is actually present at each point. This is what a second traditional view of codependent arising offered.Stim Morane: In this next version of the teaching, one presented by a master named Nagarjuna, who lived early in the Common Era ("first century AD"), the codependent factors are present simultaneously, and the factors themselves are not limited to the traditional 12, and in fact are themselves critiqued. They too are seen as only codependently true even as teaching or practice points!Stim Morane: The basic idea in this new teaching is that unawakeness re one thing strengthens the apparent reality or presence of others and vice versa.Stim Morane: For example, in our ordinary life we often experience "going" in one form or another. So this 2nd teaching re codependent arising points out that "going" is codependent with a sense of a "goer" and destination (a "going to").Stim Morane: The insight here is that these three things codependently exist and this codependence, if seen clearly enough, shows "going" to be empty (sunya).Stim Morane: Whether this means they are not fundamentally real, or that they are real in the sense that this is what "reality" is actually like, is slightly tricky. Let's leave that for later.Fefonz Quan: :) patience gets rewardedEliza Madrigal: :)Stim Morane: :)Stim Morane: Anyway, to put it very crudely ... what we usually take for granted as given in the moment is actually a very complex oscillation of dimly-perceived posits that we usually unconsciously consider to establish real things or situations, like self (e.g., "goer"), situation, practice, result, etc.Stim Morane: An analogy would be contacting a person and asking him to give a character reference for someone else you're interested in. If the first person is a thief, and he recommends the second person (who is also a thief, working closely with the first one), then we shouldn't be surprised if they recommend each other as reliable ("real").Stim Morane: And if we accept their mutual recommendations, we shouldn't be surprised when they both conspire together to steal from us. As seen by this 2nd tradition concerning codependent arising, what they steal from us is our access to reality.Fefonz Quan: realiableStim Morane: :)Stim Morane: A simpler, partial analogy, famous in the Middle East and updated to the present, involves a person going into a bank to make a withdrawal. The bank teller asks him to provide some identification so the money can be paid out. So he pulls out a mirror, looks into it, and says "yup, that's me!"Stim Morane: The idea is that this fellow is so foolish that he thinks identifying himself in this way proves that he is who he says (and thinks) he is. Banks don't take that kind of ID, and neither should we, with respect to buying into the posits of our own minds.Stim Morane: Strictly speaking, the fool using a mirror to identify himself for a bank teller fits the 1st cycle of teaching re codependent arising, because that tradition is particularly concerned with the Buddha's point re "no self". That teaching shows how the 12 links of dependent origination set up and then trash the poor apparent self.Fefonz Quan: though it is almost impossible to see through our positsStim Morane: well, that's the task hereStim Morane: sorry!Stim Morane: I warned you!Stim Morane: The story involving thieves recommending each other is more relevant to the 2nd tradition I'm introducing today.Scathach Rhiadra: :)Stim Morane: In this latter, it's not just the false "self" that is being critiqued, but the "apparent self-nature" of all things ... the band of thieves that codependently set each other up because we are not awake enough to catch them at their game.Stim Morane: So this new tradition I'm introducing now, called the Madhyamaka, critiques everything whatsoever. And it doesn't want to do that by setting up any underlying theoretical factors that constitute the real nature of the apparent (critiqued) things. The Mad tradition is the enemy of any systematic philosophy or explanatory system purporting to be the ultimate truth.Stim Morane: The Mad didn't want to set up any "things" or even notions of patterns etc in order to help us see ourselves more clearly. For, it considered all such things to only be codependently true, like the thieves recommending each other's good character.Stim Morane: This applies both to how our ordinary reality works, and to "spiritual teachings" ... both should be taken as only codependently true. Nothing (no "thing" on any level, good or bad, high or low, inner or outer) is set up as real in a way that goes beyond this mutually-defining, positing, reinforcing dynamic: codependent arising.Stim Morane: Nagarjuna, the founder of this Buddhist school, applied it critically to both competing religious traditions and to Buddhism itself, whenever the latter was understood in a "substantialist" or over-reified way. By extension, it can be applied to all things whatsoever.Stim Morane: So in summary, anything that's considered to just be so, to be what it is alleged to be, on its own, in fact does not have that independent status. It's just posited to have it, and the positing in turn is supported by the thing posited, etc ... "supported" well enough to fool an unawake mind.Stim Morane: Nagarjuna's point was to freshen up our viewStim Morane: He was concerned with liberating us from even the use of the things that figure in teachings like the 12 links … he wants our appreciation of life and reality to be fully opened up, not channeled by “teaching” and habits of being, even conventionally-approved "spiritual" ones.Fefonz Quan: But in that way you can 'deconstruct' everything, till nothing is left.Stim Morane: in a sense, yesFefonz Quan: and life remain meaningless and emptyStim Morane: but real deconstruction is different from a merely intellectual oneStim Morane: real deconstruction exposes a completely diff angle on being, one that is beyond "things"Stim Morane: I'm interested in contemplation, not intellectual deconstructionGaya Ethaniel: I have a question about emptiness. It doesn't mean nothing does it? Does it mean things change?Stim Morane: no, it doesn't mean emptiness in the nihilistic senseStim Morane: but also, no, it doesn't mean things change ...Stim Morane: because there are no "things" in the first placeStim Morane: and no time in which to changeStim Morane: no processStim Morane: Nagarjuna actually critiqued "impermanence"Stim Morane: !Stim Morane: shocking to other Buddhists.Fefonz Quan: yes it is...Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not quite sure since your comments about wrath. Your teachers living in the emptiness. How can wrath come out of emptiness ...Stim Morane: But his point was, as I say, to open up the way one understands the teachingStim Morane: real compassionate wrath can only come out of emptiness.Fefonz Quan: it seems so open, there is nothing to hold into anymoreStim Morane: otherwise, it would be biased, GayaGaya Ethaniel frowns and decides to think it over later.Stim Morane: it seems so open, it is responsive rather than conditionedStim Morane: seeing that everything is within an open dimension, beyond "things", is not the same as denying their presenceFefonz Quan: soFefonz Quan: thingStim Morane: it's just saying their presence is openFefonz Quan: are gone and interaction remains?Stim Morane: interaction remains in one sense, not in another.Stim Morane: any limited notion of interaction must be opened upStim Morane: and in doing so, true presence with others becomes possibleStim Morane: intimate because not based on notions of intimacyStim Morane: the view here is not nihilistic, it's unfetteredGaya Ethaniel: Stim did you get upset when your teachers got 'angry' at you? How did you see it wasn't what it seemed?Eliza Madrigal is very interested in this idea of 'seeds of ignorance' being left behind when one does not begin to directly see in that open way... setting up the 'next round'Stim Morane: Gaya, eventually I understood. Initially, I just freaked out ... and got angry in return.Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... okStim Morane: Eliza, that's a tricky question.Gaya Ethaniel: My seed of ignorance in my examples offered was the fact that I didn't see sort of.Stim Morane: Is it your thought there should not be any such seeds, or "next round", give what I'm saying now?Stim Morane: That last was directod to Eliza, but applies to both ...Stim Morane: *givenEliza Madrigal: yes, along those lines... that in beginning to see the chain we are able to drop part of it...Stim Morane: it is actually true that if true openness is our Way, there there are no seeds, and no next roundGaya Ethaniel: No ... seeds are good ... I need pointers until I see it.Eliza Madrigal: and maybe the next challenge in light of that, furtherStim Morane: otherwise, for the un-awake mind, there AREFefonz Quan: my thought is that some day (over the rainbow...) the seeds may dissapearEliza Madrigal nodsStim Morane: the seeds are released in the most radical way possibleGaya Ethaniel: I just feel sorry for any toes I stepped on while going around the circle.Stim Morane: otherwise, they come back to bite usStim Morane: the best way to address that, Gaya, is to practice this "emptiness"Eliza Madrigal: Thank you StimFefonz Quan: yes, teh boomenrang kindStim Morane: because that doesn't make you indifferent to other beings, it makes you able to see them in a fresh way, which helps them see themselves that way tooStim Morane: the slogging approach to rectifying errors will never be finishedStim Morane: the direct, empty way is done with everything in a strokeGaya Ethaniel: Stim, I'm doing my best to figure out this emptiness thingy :)Stim Morane: yes, I know.Stim Morane: this helps all ...Stim Morane: We've just started.Fefonz Quan: could you say more about the practice of it you mentined?Stim Morane: I'm just trying to make sure Fefonz doesn't abandon ship.Stim Morane: :)Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh you are stuck with us now StimEliza Madrigal: :)Scathach Rhiadra: :)Pila Mulligan: Confucius said: "Stop listening with your ears and listen with your mind. Then stop listening with your mind and listen with your primal spirit. Hearing is limited to the ear. Mind is limited to tallyingthings up. But the primal spirit is empty: it's simply that which awaits things."Stim Morane: use my example of "going", Fefonz.Fefonz Quan: ?Stim Morane: for your homework, investigate "going" in life, and in your meditation practice etcFefonz Quan: ah, like walking?Stim Morane: see the myriad ways "going", with codepedent "goer" and "gone to" are involvedStim Morane: yes, in walking, or working, or in a relationship or ...Stim Morane: the mind loves "going"Stim Morane: the samsaric mind, that is.Stim Morane: see the ways it has a grip on youStim Morane: I know this is hard, but you have to try, if you want to learn about this.Fefonz Quan: what has a grip, the "me going" notion?Stim Morane: yesStim Morane: "going", "gone to", "goer" actually make you blind to what you really are.Stim Morane: They turn life into a cycle, as we've discussedStim Morane: this teaching can break the chain much more directly than the other approach we've mentionedStim Morane: see if you can see the issue, then relax the story of goingStim Morane: you may find you can move and work and relate and live much betterStim Morane: Am I making even a slight amount of sense, here?Stim Morane: Feel free to say "no"Gaya Ethaniel: No ... I can't quite see the differences between 'going' gone to' and 'goer' in my example ... just see how my mind is affected by my identification.Stim Morane: But there is a "you" that is a "goer", GayaGaya Ethaniel: YesStim Morane: and releaseStim Morane: see thatStim Morane: retrieve your real being, which is joyfully "empty"Eliza Madrigal: :)Stim Morane: we are carrying around a huge loadFefonz Quan: i still have a problem with the 'going' issue. surely when i walk, this walking is not seperaated from me, and it makes me 'walker'Gaya Ethaniel: ok :) so I don't have to look for 'going' or gone to' as long as I see one of them?Stim Morane: and are programmed to live in a very restricted wayStim Morane: Fefonz, don't think about it in isolation from what is actually present in your approachStim Morane: try it for real, not as an "idea"Stim Morane: there are no ideas here at allStim Morane: :)Stim Morane: Sorry!Fefonz Quan: 'try' you mean observe o/watch?Stim Morane: in your work, your response to pressures, your grasping, etc, yesStim Morane: see the actual way your life is giving over to these mistaken notionsGaya Ethaniel: ah ... I get it ... thanks Fefonz :)Stim Morane: The 1st approach to the teaching was based on seeing patterns.Fefonz Quan: glad to be of help Gaya :)Stim Morane: the 2nd one is based on seeing the immediate way that our approach to living is bound up by these thievesStim Morane: try the homework, then we can discuss next timeStim Morane: this is hard, I know.Stim Morane: But perhaps at some random moment, you might see a bit of itFefonz Quan: will try gladly. could you please rephrase them in other terms?Stim Morane: suggestions?Fefonz Quan: tooStim Morane: after all, I'm just offering hints.Stim Morane: It's hard to know exactly how you will see your own limiting approaches to lifeStim Morane: take seeing as another exampleFefonz Quan: yes, for example responses to pressure (anger maybe). how can i connect it to the going/goer issue?Stim Morane: there's "seeing", "seer", "seeing"Stim Morane: "worrier" & "worrying" & "worried one"Gaya Ethaniel: Well with anger, for me there is "it shouldn't be this way."Fefonz Quan: like object-->percieverFefonz Quan: ?Stim Morane: these are codependent, contemporaneous or co-present angles on our way of being in some situationsStim Morane: yes, true GayaGaya Ethaniel: There is where I am with anger so far ... -_-Stim Morane: but that response is part of the anger, codependentGaya Ethaniel: That is*Stim Morane: there are many ways you will see what I'm talking aboutStim Morane: and each of you may see something quite differentStim Morane: This is somewhat subtle, admittedly.Stim Morane: But you may catch somethingStim Morane: OK?Eliza Madrigal: yesScathach Rhiadra nodsFefonz Quan nodsStim Morane: so to repeat:Stim Morane: For homework, try investigating the example I provided earlier, re "going". See how this figures in your life and also in your practice itself.

Can you see "going", "goer", "gone to"?

Can you see the way they interact, mutually reinforce each other's reality?

Can you see the way their very arising is their emptiness?Stim Morane: the latter question is quite hard.Stim Morane: Stick with whatever is easy, for now.Stim Morane: Fefonz, I can't believe I'm even doing this ...Stim Morane: :)Gaya Ethaniel: You love Fefonz Stim :)Scathach Rhiadra: :)Fefonz Quan: i suggest this workshop will stop being about MEStim Morane: :)Fefonz Quan: :)Pila Mulligan: Fefonz simply awaits thingsGaya Ethaniel: Are you afraid of that Fefonz?Stim Morane: OK, then ... no more Fefonz jokes.Stim Morane: We'll pick on Pila instead.Fefonz Quan: of what being the scape goat? nooooWester Kiranov: Not even empty ones?Pila Mulligan: :)Gaya Ethaniel: :)Stim Morane: That's it for today. Sorry to give you such weird homework!Gaya Ethaniel: I wish the session is longer ...Eliza Madrigal is thankful and happy...lots to consider :)Fefonz Quan: No, thanks Stim, it was a great meetingStim Morane: I'm glad it's over, so I can escape ...Pila Mulligan: thanks Stim, see you next time :)Eliza Madrigal: heheGaya Ethaniel: Thanks Stim :)Scathach Rhiadra: thank you Stim, good night:)Stim Morane: bye!Wester Kiranov: Thank you Stim and everyoneFefonz Quan: Bye StimGaya Ethaniel: People, I think it'd be good to get together once a week after each session what do you say?Gaya Ethaniel: Just compare notes ... kind of thing.Fefonz Quan: can be niceStim Morane: :)Scathach Rhiadra: good idea GayaEliza Madrigal: Sure : )Wester Kiranov: Could be nice. It's getting a bit late for me thoughGaya Ethaniel: Because I feel for example Fefonz can help me understand anger better ... we just don't have time.Gaya Ethaniel: No not after the session directly but antoher time.Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, finding a suitable time can be a problemFefonz Quan: and maybe someone can help me understand the homework :)Gaya Ethaniel: Today's was almost impossible ... that's why I suggest this.Scathach Rhiadra: Fefonz, did you read the book on the stages of emptiness meditation yet?Eliza Madrigal: Let me know guys. :) Bye for nowGaya Ethaniel: And that meeting can be off record as well if some ppl want it?Scathach Rhiadra: bye ElizaGaya Ethaniel: Bye Eliza :)Fefonz Quan: just begun Scath...Fefonz Quan: bye ElizaGaya Ethaniel: What's that book? I want to know ...Wester Kiranov: I'm going too. Bye!Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Wester :)Fefonz Quan: some book Scath recommended me on. it regards buddhist meditations (on emptiness too),Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester:)Fefonz Quan: bye WesterFefonz Quan: though i believe sticking to Stims practice can be enough for now :)Scathach Rhiadra: its called Progressive Stages of Meditation on EmptinessGaya Ethaniel: ok ty :)Fefonz Quan: for me the only clear question i can purify from Stim's example is 'who is the goer'?Scathach Rhiadra: by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso RinpocheScathach Rhiadra: a small bookFefonz Quan: just saying this name brings a little inner smile :)