Well, in that I disagree. For starters, Saint Nicholas (Santa Claus) was and actual factual real person. He came from Germany and he gave to the poor.
Now, in my own opinion, I think it just comes down to the personality of a child. My parents told me there was a Santa Claus and I believed in Santa
Claus. When I grew up and came to realize that there was no actual man in a sled with flying reindeer, I did not find myself thinking "oh, my parents
are liars!" I knew why they told me the story and I knew why they kept up the tradition with my younger brother. Because its fun, its magical, its
imagination. I do the same with my own children, my oldest is 10 now and no longer believes..but she knows the actual real story of Saint Nicholas and
she likes it. She keeps up the imagination together with me and her daddy now for her 4 year old sister. Do I feel this takes away from the story of
Jesus? Not at all. My children, my husband and myself know who Jesus is and what he done for us..even our 4 year old. I don't think adding a big of
magical fantasy sways that in the least.

Now, I will agree about the whole black friday gift overload sensory overload crap. Which is why..my kids get 3 gifts each year..and that is it.
But..we also give...ALOT! lol....see, we don't just attend one church..we actually have 2 churches we have to split our time between. We have a
church that is right next to our home...the girls go there for all the activities,...awanas, choir, band, upwards (sports) dance class, etc. But then,
we love absolutely love Andy Stanley and Northpoint Community Church. So...every Sunday we make the drive there....our daughter participate in their
children's group on Fridays. So...about 6 of the 7 days of the week are spent at church! What I like about it though, is that they are not in your
face..the kids go there and they have fun and they do exciting things. But what this means is that right at Holiday time, we have 2 churches and 2
girls at each of those churches...so you have the food drives, the angel tree, operation child shoebox (fill a shoe box with a bunch of gifts for
children in 3rd world countries) donations...... so we had made the decision a few years ago to cut back on the gifts for our girls and instead as a
family, spend the holiday doing a lot of giving, the girls really enjoy it and it teaches them a lot.

Originally posted by spacedoubt
It's greenery, in the dead of winter.
Holly, Fir Trees, and all the other trees of coniferous glory.
And they smell good, when you're all cooped up together in the cold of winter.
I say there were many independent reasons for putting up a tree and decorating it.
It's a symbol of rebirth, one way or another. Just when you thought it was going to get darker and darker each day.
Winter begins. And the process reverses.
Spoken from a Northern Hemisphere prospective, of course.

Consider that in the dead of winter, the rebirth of the sun on the 25th of December after its 3 days of death (not moving north for 3 days), and a
green tree could have been a symbol of life to celebrate that rebirth of the sun.

Yes, the Christmas Tree is pagan... the evergreen is symbolic of eternal life. The tree is symbolic of a male phallus... the counter part is the
wreath... symbolic of the female vulva or womb... thus the round wreath...

The wreath generally adorned with holly and red berries...in nature, the holly has a male and female.. the female having red berries.

The tree and greenery originates from the pagan rituals of Babylon and carried over to Canaan and Philistina and along the Euphrates and Mesapotamia
Rivers... the fertile crescent.

The Bible in the Old Testament warns of the sexual rituals celebrated in groves of Cedars and evergreen trees... and often times when the kings of
Israel and Judah repented and turned back to God, they would cut down and burn the groves, often found on hillocks. Again, fertility rites..aka
orgies, were carried out in these groves.

Ironically, one of the traditions associated with greenery is the "kissing under the mistle toe"... again a remnant of the sexual depravity that
used to occur under the mistle toe which grew in the sacred oaks.

These pagan traditions of winter, along with the rituals of Easter...Eshter...Ishtar.. goddess of fertility... spread to Northern Europe and
Scandinavia via the remnants and descendants of the "Lost Tribes of Israel" as they migrated north and westward into Europe...Dan became Danes,
Judes became Jutes, Issakessenni ( Babylonian for House of Issac) became Saxon. These rituals took on new identities...Saturnalia...the evergreen tree
representing eternal life...the Yule Log was burned on the eve of the resurrection of the Sun...or winter solstice...the next day the days started
growing longer representing rebirth...and the tree was decorated... people would bring gifts or offerings and lay them at the base of the reborn
tree...sound familiar?

The image of Santa is what evolved from Wotan... Wodan or Odin... a great bearded god riding a chariot pulled by eight horses or norse deer as he
traveled across the sky...aka the Sun.

This all goes back to the original phallus...the tower of babylon.

It really is all convoluted... and all pagan.

That being said... Christmas is all you make it to be. We actually have an old fashioned Christmas... we go out and cut down a real tree here on the
farm. We start picking one out about September...then we bring it back and decorate it... usually only about 2 weeks before Xmas. We take a burlap
sack out also and get up running cedar to drape on the mantel and windows, pull some holly with berries, and even go out with the shotgun and shoot
down some mistle toe.

We have several family get togethers during these weeks, lots of country treats..country ham, chicken and dumplings, lots of cakes and pies, and on
Xmas Eve...we usually have a theme...a Cajun Christmas with a low country boil of crawdads and shrimp, or a new York Xmas with Sinatra playing and
real NJ deli meats, breads, and cheeses... and this year in the spirit of the great recession... a Walton Christmas... with home made gifts.. I'm
making big bird houses with hinges on the side so you can open the bird house up like a box...inside will be home made candies, cookies, and fudge
with nuts and apples and oranges... then we go out to the barn where the animals are and read the Christmas Story from the Bible.

Originally posted by strafgod
Lol im enjoying your misery with the typos.

To me a christmas tree is just something to put presents under.

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

While I find the first part of your statement utterly pointless and unneeded. I do agree with the second part of it. Honestly, the religious nature of
the holiday has been lost on most people.

For most it is about exchanging presents. That's about it. No one I have ever known, really cares about why we have Christmas trees or anything else.
They are all to busy wondering what they will be getting.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
Some of you know about this, many don't. Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate this tradition. How many other ancient pagan traditions are we unwittingly
carrying out. And why? If we trace these traditions back to their origins, as has been done repeatedly in the scholarly arena, we see that today's
Christian holidays are simply an usurpation of older rites and ceremonies of worship dedicated to more primal (and pure?) observations of nature and
It's glory.

I appreciate your zeal but I am left once again asking myself why certain types of folks feel the need to inform us of this type of stuff every
year.

Why? Why did you feel the need to inform us of this? I am honestly interested.

All of this type of information concerning Christmas trees and Santa Claus and the Cult of Sol Invictus has been available on the web for years
for anyone interested in seeking it out.

Every year since Lincoln, Baigent and Leigh published Holy Blood Holy Grail we have had to endure this yearly history update as a regular
feature of Christmas.

And you know what? It's still a Christmas tree.

Thanks for showing up right on time with the usual devisive Holiday Treat.

Good job, OP.

How many other ancient pagan traditions are we unwittingly carrying out. And why?

All you have to do is a cursory study of the Ancient Greeks and Romans to see that we haven't changed a bit. The real argument is which are we? The
Greeks or the Romans. I am going with Romans.

This whole discussion is seriously old hat circa 1994.

edit on 11-11-2011 by Frater210 because: whatev..

Most knowledge is passed down through speech and the written word.
if we don't keep knowledge alive by discussing it then it may be lost.
Knowing the past can help create a better future.
All good reasons to have this discussion each year, I mean why else would we celebrate anything?

here is where your ideals break down from following thoughts through.
If it was not for the tree mkt every year there would not be a need to plant tree farms and the majority of those trees would have never lived at all.
So if I was to be sensationalizing also I would have to wonder what you have against trees that you would not want them to be planted and given life
to serve your personal ideals. Interesting huh? well, for the record, I serve Yah and I don't do the tree thing. It seems to me as idolitry.

I don't need to see it that way, the ebb and flow of an industry that raises life just to take life in the end. This isn't for food, clothing, or
shelter - the three basics which society is kind to provide for each other. It's for the sake of a tradition, in which many are desensitized to the
fact that it claims a young life in the process. I'm not a fan of seeing veal or mutton on menus either, nor "live bait vending machines" outside
gas stations, or lobsters in crowded tanks in the supermarkets. It all echos of washed-out humanity, replaced by some ungodly convenience that falls
short of ethical treatment to the other beings on this planet which we, in all our supposedly enlightened ways, should be caretakers of. Instead look
at what we swallow. The idea doesn't hit me as a good one, in fact it would feel like being hit by a bus, to endorse it.

It's said that trees communicate by ultrasound; I wonder if there's truth to that? So much we don't understand ...

If you require anything finite to inspire the Union then you are not moving toward the direction of the Union with the Presence. Instead you are
establishing the "playground" for mental dwelling that is engaging pleasant memories. Not the Communion.

here is where your ideals break down from following thoughts through.
If it was not for the tree mkt every year there would not be a need to plant tree farms and the majority of those trees would have never lived at all.
So if I was to be sensationalizing also I would have to wonder what you have against trees that you would not want them to be planted and given life
to serve your personal ideals. Interesting huh? well, for the record, I serve Yah and I don't do the tree thing. It seems to me as idolitry.

I don't need to see it that way, the ebb and flow of an industry that raises life just to take life in the end. This isn't for food, clothing, or
shelter - the three basics which society is kind to provide for each other. It's for the sake of a tradition, in which many are desensitized to the
fact that it claims a young life in the process. I'm not a fan of seeing veal or mutton on menus either, nor "live bait vending machines" outside
gas stations, or lobsters in crowded tanks in the supermarkets. It all echos of washed-out humanity, replaced by some ungodly convenience that falls
short of ethical treatment to the other beings on this planet which we, in all our supposedly enlightened ways, should be caretakers of. Instead look
at what we swallow. The idea doesn't hit me as a good one, in fact it would feel like being hit by a bus, to endorse it.

It's said that trees communicate by ultrasound; I wonder if there's truth to that? So much we don't understand ...

Incredible and inspiring posts as usual, my friend. I'm glad I subscribe to these threads; I'll look back just to reread those someday in months to
come

ty for elaborating on your stance on life. So I can gather that you carry this to human life? Are you pro-(human)life?
I have anecdotal experience to share with you.
The facts are we need to eat. Man has thrived and survived in a healthy state eating animal protein and small seeds for nourishment as our place in
the food chain.
I love the movie about Temple Grandin for this insight. But man is above the rest of nature as we can choose what we do. I believe you are suffering
from a "civilized" diet as a result from being too far removed from the food chain to reach the idealistict conclusions you have arrived at. My
story is this.
I once was a tradesman before the crash. And now there is no work.
I had to retrain myself years ago.
I decided to get out of the city and get a farm.
I needed a vehicle to sustain it and that became Ostrich.
I raise ostrich.
It is the ONLY eco friendly livestock in the world.
Now I raise them for food (eggs and meat, red meat). Now you can say this unethical from an idealist point of view but I assure you, we need to eat, I
promise! I was asked early on how I can harvest my birds, because they are so cute. Very tough question.
I love these animals and cater to them daily as children of my own loins.
Man I love these creatures.
But we have to eat.
In the movie Temple is asked about the slaughtering of animals and she states something along the lines of what I am saying, we need meat as food as
humans and goes on to add that "Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be. We have a responsibilty to how we treat these animals that we consume to
survive." I can tell you this. My livestock are loved and treated better than nature treats them and they know me as daddy and their mate (ostrich
are unique in this) and love my interaction with them. They will be extremely well taken care of and loved their whole lives. Now here's the flip
side of the coin you have tossed up. Without me they would have never existed. They never would have been treated like royalty and would have never
known my love and would have never got to play and eat and peck and breed, without me, a human who also has needs at another level up in the food
chain. But unlike nature I can choose how I treat my dinner, with aggression or with love. You use only naturalistic examples of men removed too far
from the food chain to see that if done responsibly instead of aggressively as human animals we are actually elevated in our existance with those
creatures Yah has put us above and responsible for. The closer I have become to the food chain (my chickens have it too good as well) the more respect
I have for all life.
Man have I quickly become the pacifist.
I find an inheritant responsibilty for all the wars now being fought in my name as life is even more sacred to me as my responsibilties grow for those
lives in my care. I hate what was done to Iraqi's, Afghani's, Libyans, Africans, Vietnamese, etc... that is done in my name as I am responsible, as
a human, for other life. It's the elevated role I play in this drama we share.

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