Thank you for everyones response. I will try some of these ideas with my son this following week and see what works for him. I never unschooled him so to speak, but we know from experience from the first year that we homeschooled him that a set schedual doesn't work with him so we have tried to allow him to do his work when he feels like it. I don't know if that was a good idea because he never feels like it With that I will comment on the door issue, I don't see anything wrong with taking a door off of a teenagers room if that is a way of punishment. I had my lock turned around when I was a teenager so that I couldn't lock my parents out of my room anymore and then eventually they just took the knob off all together. I was a very hard headed child, just as my son is but with him the things my parents did with me don't work with him so I have to go out and get others opions and ideas. But I am greatful for everyones responses and I hope that I find something soon that will work for him. Again a great THANK YOU to everyone that responded.

Mom3x, I think you missed the part about the door that I found upsetting:

Quote:

Whenever anyone asked "Why is your door laying in the living room", my niece had to tell them about her slamming the door (and a lot of people asked). She also hated the idea that she no longer had privacy. Something like that for the child is very helpful... and my niece has never again slammed a door. In this situation, displaying his laziness for all to see and forcing him to explain it would be great.

Humiliation is never a good way to teach a child. They learn to retreat instead of ask for help from those who should be there for them unconditionally._________________"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. MontessoriProud non-member of the HSLDA

We don't starve our children here. That is an appalling idea and not only hurts the body but the spirit. A hungry child is less likely to concentrate and work, and turn in shoddy results because of that. A child who needs to eat regularly to maintain blood sugar is likely to have mood swings and be even worse because of this bullying tactic.
I cannot even fathom how you can connect starvation to working well.
...goals for our children. I want mine to be thinkers, independent, but a part of their community, respected and respectful.

You want yours to be obedient.

I don't know about the parent who originally posted this, but at our house, as soon as we say, "If you don't work, you don't eat" we follow it up with, "And you're going to eat, so you're going to work." ITA with your statements above about starving children.

However, for us it is true that we want our children to be obedient rather than independent. I don't mean that we want them to be obedient to us. (We do while they're little, but that's a step toward the ultimate goal.) A certain amount of independence is a good thing: independence from negative peer pressure, for example. But I mean that we want them to be obedient to laws: laws of God and laws of the land.

You cannot fathom how we can connect eating to working well? We didn't connect them. It's in the Bible.

Hunger is a good motivator, and even as much as a day without food isn't going to kill you unless you have serious health problems. For older kids at least, I don't see the problem? It's not like your core subject matter is going to take more than three hours or so if you work hard, it's your own fault if you go hungry._________________Homeschool Articles - Events - Support Groups

Just a quick real world example of no work no eat: my family has a dairy farm, and we recently have been hiring some extra help...nothing glamorous, cleaning stalls, getting cows up to be milked, etc. Somewhere around the third day, one of them decided he just wasn't going to work the 3rd shift because he needed to be at home with his family (the shifts rotate every two weeks, so this wasn't even permanent). DH told him, that's fine, but you remember if you don't work you and your family don't eat. The man left anyways only to call the next day begging his job back. "Too late" was my husband's response.

One more comment about the door: I think taking the door off after repeated warnings not to slam it is a fine punishment. It is the having the child repeatedly telling everyone who came in the house about it that is so horrid. I have a friend who kept slamming the door and her dad told her he would take it down if it happened again. It happened again and off it came. She was able to hang a sheet for privacy...but this was a family affair...no announcing it to the world. My DD (who is only 3) learned how to lock her door recently, so we turned the lock around. No big deal was made, and no family newsletter to announce it or party to make fun of her for it. We don't even discuss it with her anymore. Just because you think your child can "handle" it, doesn't make it any more humane IMHO.

I think Lily was right when she said Decrease wanted his kids to obey, and i don't think she meant the way PP meant being Biblically submissive. We want our kids to know and obey God's Word, and follow the law of the land, since the Bible demands it. We also want them to obey us...the BIble demands this as well. But as they get older, there is no reason why they should not be able to respectfully question why we do the things we do...Mom, why don't you and dad allow me to go to that place downtown? Why do you think it is wrong for me to watch that kind of movie? If they are asking because they really want to see why you feel that way, that is fine. It is not okay to say "Everyone gets to go see that movie but ME! You are so unfair! You never let me do anything!"

If you note in my letters I said that my kids have never missed a meal but except an occassional snack before bedtime (a tradition in our home). Yet, the meal is delayed. Comparing this to starvation, when I clearly noted this, is terrible.

The door is a natural consequence. When in College I had a wise professor who said, "If you don't like something someone is doing stop doing what you are doing to encourage it." It is natural in the sense that if you can't treat doors with respect then you do not have the privilege of a door any longer. You lose in our life what you abuse. If you abuse a door... you lose the door.

As far as embarrassing people, there is always peer pressure. If you note that I said you have to be wise in how you do this with each child. Let me be honest, when I was a kid this was the kind of discipline that effected me the most. I was not ruined. Yes, the "for all to see" is a display that the child does have to own up to their sin. Having been a boss, let me say that it is for that reason that I fired many a people while in management.

So, please stop using "starvation", for in my original post I alluded to and in subsequent posts I stated that my kids do not miss food time. The original post I said it could end in a stalemate, which meant that you may have to eventually feed the child. When I was a kid, I did miss meals due to being poor... my children only have delayed meals or lose their snack.

I think you like to nit-pick. Yet, the majority of people on this list agree with me. I think this is evident what I meant.

Yet, I find it interesting that you will not take a door off a child's room and place it in a living room but you will mischaracterize a stranger's words and accuse him of "starvation". So, you are afraid of hurting your child's psyche in one instance but wish to do so to a stranger in another when he was clear in his post.

One more thing, I do want obedience but as I stated in my posts, we work diligently of getting proper obedience. Obedience as I defined it is "Doing what your told to do, when your told to do it, with the right heart attitude." Yes, I do want that. And I work very hard at fostering the right heart attitude. My kids love to obey me... why? We work on the latter more than we work on the former.

If you note in my letters I said that my kids have never missed a meal but except an occassional snack before bedtime (a tradition in our home). Yet, the meal is delayed. Comparing this to starvation, when I clearly noted this, is terrible.

And if they refused to do the work? Would they eat that day? It is starvation when your plan is to force them to work or not eat. How quickly you "win" against your children is why you say they haven't been starved...yet.

Quote:

The door is a natural consequence. When in College I had a wise professor who said, "If you don't like something someone is doing stop doing what you are doing to encourage it." It is natural in the sense that if you can't treat doors with respect then you do not have the privilege of a door any longer. You lose in our life what you abuse. If you abuse a door... you lose the door.

To break it down for you, that is a manipulated consequence, a forced one. Not all people react the same. I would not treat my peers in such a manner, therefore I would not treat my children that way.

Here is the definition of a natural consequence for you:
Natural consequences occur naturally, hence the name. They are not controlled or manipulated by anyone. When you plant a flower in your garden and take care of it, it grows. That is a positive example of natural consequences. When you put your finger in an electric socket, you get a shock.

What you are doing is not natural, and the humiliation and bullying is not logical. By the teen years, a child should be a part of the discipline, not a recipient of it. It should be the child working to correct mistakes with parental guidance, that way s/he is more prepared in a few short years to take on full adult responsibilities.

Quote:

As far as embarrassing people, there is always peer pressure. If you note that I said you have to be wise in how you do this with each child. Let me be honest, when I was a kid this was the kind of discipline that effected me the most. I was not ruined. Yes, the "for all to see" is a display that the child does have to own up to their sin. Having been a boss, let me say that it is for that reason that I fired many a people while in management.

Embarrassing a child is not wise. It simply isn't. And doing it, as a parent, because they may get the same treatment from children who are learning the same as them, is not okay. This is not discipline. To discipline means to teach. Jesus didn't pants his disciples or force shame and embarrassment. He taught them right from wrong in a loving atmosphere.
The more external pressure we apply to our children the less internal pressure there is. If a child is forced into shameful positions, they don't have a chance to truly experience shame. It is felt for him, and because of that there's the risk of the child shutting down and not feeling anything at all. Besides that, such a personal matter affecting the household should not be broadcast to the neighborhood. Not only does the child get nothing out of it except a sense that mom and dad control everything (Not God, not the child taking responsibility), but the recipients get to feel discomfort and embarrassment for having to stand there and listen.

Quote:

So, please stop using "starvation", for in my original post I alluded to and in subsequent posts I stated that my kids do not miss food time. The original post I said it could end in a stalemate, which meant that you may have to eventually feed the child. When I was a kid, I did miss meals due to being poor... my children only have delayed meals or lose their snack

.

Well, what is your backup plan if they don't work that day?

I think you like to nit-pick. Yet, the majority of people on this list agree with me. I think this is evident what I meant.
I think you like to bully. I have already stated on this board that I am not the type of "christian" that likes to hurt children in the name of love. There are other, better ways of sharing God's word with our kids that don't include bullying them into it.

Quote:

Yet, I find it interesting that you will not take a door off a child's room and place it in a living room but you will mischaracterize a stranger's words and accuse him of "starvation". So, you are afraid of hurting your child's psyche in one instance but wish to do so to a stranger in another when he was clear in his post.

I have hurt you by disagreeing with your actions? I apologize if my words are harsh, but I do feel they need to be said. And I don't believe I have mischaracterized anything. You have not provided any more info than what you have first said - no plans, but lots of ways to mistreat others. That is not okay. Children are our gift to raise and love, not to see how far we can hurt them before we destroy them._________________"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. MontessoriProud non-member of the HSLDA

I have to say that the both of you need to agree to disagree. What works for one child doesn't always work for the other. Same goes for adults, and what they choose or how they choose to raise and discipline their children.

I want to also add that in a conversation with my son over breakfast this morning God was working his way and talking to the both of us. I told my son that he just needs to ask God for guidance to help him achieve his goals in life. Low and behold GOD spoke through me to my son. I receive a verse everyday and today of all days was this one.

Quote:

Those who listen to instruction will prosper; those who trust the LORD will be joyful. Proverbs 16:20

To me this is GOD talking to my son and the reaction that he (my son) had when he read it IMO was the most rewarding to me. I don't know if having him read this will change things for him but, I can only hope and pray that God will continue to work with my son. As my mother always tells me let GOD let go, meaning to give your problems to GOD and let them go, because if you keep trying to take them back and fix them yourself than GOD can't help you.

I have reread the post by Decrease and I still don't see anything wrong with it. I don't think that perhaps any of the suggestions would work for my son because I know him better than anyone would as would Decrease knowing what their children can handle emotionally/mentally. Everyone punishes, teaches, and disciplines their children differently. If what Decrease was doing to their children was harming them, there would probably be other issues they would be dealing with, and I think they would be asking for advice on what went wrong. But I don't see that and I hope that Lilly can understand that not everyone view everything the same. That is why we have two different parties for government or different religions, everyone reads and deciphers the bible differently too. EVERYONE is DIFFERENT in their own ways. But you have to remember that GOD loves us equally and I appreciate everyone’s opinions on the subject.

I don't know you or what you are about but I think you are reading into everything wrong!!!

I didn't say that he (GOD) doesn't care about how children are treated!!! You in your mind are saying that. GOD loves and cares about everyone.

I came on here today to tell everyone about something wonderful that had happened and you took that and ruined it!!!!!

If I recall Decrease said that they don't literally starve their children. I am new to this forum and haven't read any other posts by this person but I can say that you have issues that you need to deal with and quit accusing people of what YOU THINK they may or may not be doing.

Thank you for your time but I did not come on here to see people blast each other or get blasted my self, I asked for help and opinions on how to get my child to do or get interest in his work not what people think is child abuse or not. You are a hateful person and read into everything as being wrong. A Christian should see all sides of an issue or matter at take it what they may but not come at people the way you have. I have lost total respect for you and any opinions you may ever have. I stated before that I didn't think that some of the suggestions this person gave would work for my child as he may not be able to handle that emotionally but you just seem to have issues with everyone else’s views and can't look at the big picture. I am done with my rant and I will apologize to everyone else if I have offended anyone.

Everyone needs to calm down a bit. Disagree with the opinion, not with the person who's voicing it. If the thread is making you angry or unhappy, take a break for a day or two._________________Homeschool Articles - Events - Support Groups

If you note in my letters I said that my kids have never missed a meal but except an occassional snack before bedtime (a tradition in our home). Yet, the meal is delayed. Comparing this to starvation, when I clearly noted this, is terrible.

And if they refused to do the work? Would they eat that day? It is starvation when your plan is to force them to work or not eat. How quickly you "win" against your children is why you say they haven't been starved...yet.

Read my initial post in which I said there could be a stalemate. The entire post presumed that there could be such a situation where you could appear weak and not win out on the battle.

Lily wrote:

Quote:

The door is a natural consequence. When in College I had a wise professor who said, "If you don't like something someone is doing stop doing what you are doing to encourage it." It is natural in the sense that if you can't treat doors with respect then you do not have the privilege of a door any longer. You lose in our life what you abuse. If you abuse a door... you lose the door.

To break it down for you, that is a manipulated consequence, a forced one. Not all people react the same. I would not treat my peers in such a manner, therefore I would not treat my children that way.

Here is the definition of a natural consequence for you:
Natural consequences occur naturally, hence the name. They are not controlled or manipulated by anyone. When you plant a flower in your garden and take care of it, it grows. That is a positive example of natural consequences. When you put your finger in an electric socket, you get a shock.

I think we are defining things differently. In context when we were talking about this subject we were talking about natural consequences not in regards to natural law--which is where your definition is derived, but from natural ramifications. In other words, I don't work so I lose my job. Now, that is not natural in the sense that natural law is at play but it is a natural consequence to your actions, it is logical and rational. Thus, the abusing of a door means you lose access to a door. The abuse of authority is the loss of that authority. So on and so forth.

I would, if I were you, engage in the thought process of natural law in that regards.

Lily wrote:

What you are doing is not natural, and the humiliation and bullying is not logical. By the teen years, a child should be a part of the discipline, not a recipient of it. It should be the child working to correct mistakes with parental guidance, that way s/he is more prepared in a few short years to take on full adult responsibilities.

We will agree to disagree. I seriously doubt you would see bullying in my home and would find a wonderful atmosphere of joy and companionship.

Lily wrote:

Embarrassing a child is not wise. It simply isn't. And doing it, as a parent, because they may get the same treatment from children who are learning the same as them, is not okay. This is not discipline. To discipline means to teach. Jesus didn't pants his disciples or force shame and embarrassment. He taught them right from wrong in a loving atmosphere.
The more external pressure we apply to our children the less internal pressure there is. If a child is forced into shameful positions, they don't have a chance to truly experience shame. It is felt for him, and because of that there's the risk of the child shutting down and not feeling anything at all. Besides that, such a personal matter affecting the household should not be broadcast to the neighborhood. Not only does the child get nothing out of it except a sense that mom and dad control everything (Not God, not the child taking responsibility), but the recipients get to feel discomfort and embarrassment for having to stand there and listen.

Yes, the false dichotomy of internal versus external pressure. You ask Freud about internal and external pressure and he would say internal. If you asked Pavlov and he would say external. I personally say that both apply. I think you create a false dichotomy here that is irrational.

Now, as far as Jesus he did embarrass his disciples. Publicly he told rebuked them whether it was Peter when Peter refused to have his feet washed and then wanted his entire body washed. He also focused on the heart issues as well. It was Jesus, as God, who commanded obedience to certain laws (the 10 commandments). They struck a person down when that person, trying to do good, disobeyed by having the ark carried on a cart. As stated over and over again, there is a false dichotomy set up. Obedience is doing what your supposed to do when your supposed to do it with the right heart attitude. That is the definition I have listed three times. No false dichotomy here and it is what i repeat. I do not think you are reading my entire posts as you are attacking me in areas I have already addressed. We strive to win the heart... which is what I have shown here over and over in this text.

[quote="Lily"]

Quote:

So, please stop using "starvation", for in my original post I alluded to and in subsequent posts I stated that my kids do not miss food time. The original post I said it could end in a stalemate, which meant that you may have to eventually feed the child. When I was a kid, I did miss meals due to being poor... my children only have delayed meals or lose their snack

.

Well, what is your backup plan if they don't work that day?

I think you like to nit-pick. Yet, the majority of people on this list agree with me. I think this is evident what I meant.
I think you like to bully. I have already stated on this board that I am not the type of "christian" that likes to hurt children in the name of love. There are other, better ways of sharing God's word with our kids that don't include bullying them into it.

Lily wrote:

I like to bully like you are bullying me? Lilly, you can't debate and you are not logical, you just want to call me names. I am not a bully.

I manage 25 people underneath me. Let me tell you a story about this bully. Recently, I had several people under me who were going to be moved. Most of them went to my boss and begged that I would remain their boss. Why? They feel that I love them and care for them. They are more than workers in which I try to get 8 hours from everyday, they are people whom I love and care for. Yet, I sometimes fire someone but I care for them. If you went to them and said I was a bully, without exception they would laugh at you. Why? I care for them.

The same goes with my kids. There are consequences to their actions. Yet, I care for them. I do not starve them. If you read my posts, not just skim my posts, you will see that I recognize there could be a stalemate. What would I do? Depends on the child.

Lily wrote:

Quote:

Yet, I find it interesting that you will not take a door off a child's room and place it in a living room but you will mischaracterize a stranger's words and accuse him of "starvation". So, you are afraid of hurting your child's psyche in one instance but wish to do so to a stranger in another when he was clear in his post.

I have hurt you by disagreeing with your actions? I apologize if my words are harsh, but I do feel they need to be said. And I don't believe I have mischaracterized anything. You have not provided any more info than what you have first said - no plans, but lots of ways to mistreat others. That is not okay. Children are our gift to raise and love, not to see how far we can hurt them before we destroy them.

Yet, despite what I have said you choose to see the worse in me. I rarely discipline my children. Yet, when I do I am decisive and loving. And, believe it or not, my kids think going out with their dad on our monthly date is the greatest thing in the world... I do not crush them... I build up their character.

A Christian should see all sides of an issue or matter at take it what they may but not come at people the way you have. I have lost total respect for you and any opinions you may ever have. I stated before that I didn't think that some of the suggestions this person gave would work for my child as he may not be able to handle that emotionally but you just seem to have issues with everyone else’s views and can't look at the big picture. I am done with my rant and I will apologize to everyone else if I have offended anyone.

What a Christian should do?? A Christian should treat their children as they would like to be treated. A Christian should follow the golden rule, and not humiliate and bully someone so much smaller, in an effort to get blind obedience on all levels. A Christian should not encourage their children to lie to themselves and others, in an effort to show "good heart attitude".

Don't talk to me about how a Christian should treat their children, while in the next breath supporting making someone suffer needlessly.

Yes, I take issue with that, and I will stand up for those who have their voice beaten out of them. I'd rather see a child aborted than be brought into a home where these methods are the norm.

As far as sparing the rod, my rod is one of comfort, not an instrument of pain. There are many interpretations of the biblical passages including this writing, and it is only if you wish to harm others that you will use the passage to justify pain.
Here is one good attempt at explaining it - http://aolff.org/aolff2/?p=3_________________"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. MontessoriProud non-member of the HSLDA