Low mobility and no phantasm for a class that has to play aggressively in the middle is bad news. LOSing is hard on most maps if your playing the class right.

The mind spike glyph thing is kinda understood and I almost like the extra glyph spot to choose from the awesome selection of glyphs shadow has /sarcygrin.
I play a lot of 2's with an rsham (yeah 2's I know, right) so I'll take body and soul because getting out of that root to not get away from anything is useless. With the nerf we need a real slow, shock, conflag, curse, frost everything etc > mind flay focus kick gtfo.

Glyph of Mass Dispel is essential to pvp and pve right now - plus GC seems happy with us having the utility that we do, he just wants to make us less survivable - which he seems to believe he has succeeded in doing. We're done offering suggestions for how to gut the class guys, if you want to keep going though, I'm sure you can head over to the Paladin forums and give them ideas about which burst cooldowns and selfless healer mechanics to remove from Ret to make it not competitive

Devouring plague change not only reverted, but more upfront damage. Perhaps this may offset the change to the mind spike glyph in pvp?

Think it was just poorly phrased, think he meant to say "back to the more upfront damage like before"

Originally Posted by Senathor

Don't be that cranky. You'll still be the best caster in most cases... Just not in all cases like right now. GC is right as well, burst is the part of your damage. Sustained damage is irrelevant if you can force several CDs with full DoT's + MS procs. You're not Affli Warlocks after all, you're not supposed to deal as high DoT damage consistently. As I previously said, Shadow is a very synergy based spec and is only successful at the hands of really good players that don't panic under pressure. Not implying that you're bad, just saying, sometimes it might seem unfair when in fact your team mates don't synergise appropriately. I can see an issue here becuase other classes can do pretty well on their own without insane synergy, but I guess all classes can't be the same.

I personally don't like Shadow for that reason, I wanna mongoloid by myself sometimes and as a UH DK I definitely can.

This is the reason shadow nerfs where taken so badly by the spec, they don't want to be the class that requires babysitting. Even in pre-nerf terms a shadow left on his own gets ruined by double melee/KFC. Exactly the reason why phantasm was needed, 2 seconds of no hunter/no warrior charge. just a big enough gap creator that your partners can help if they were being cc'd.

Flash heal spamming i'm very pleased is nerfd, it was a bad design.

The only thing I thought they should of adressed was RNG nature of the spec.

Especially now glyph of MS is gone, might see people running glyph of MB for more RNG. Imagine a 4 second stun out of your silence, thats a 9 second lock down. Though having never used it and thus never researched it I'm not sure what DRs the glyph shares as to how well it would synergise with other comps. again tho with shadows 10% crit, it would be more rng.

I'm not gonna reroll. I don't plan on it. If people reroll because of a nerf, they are just retarded and should die.

Just my main concern is how melee will just train me and win in 5.2. I am a dps, not a healer. If i have a small amount of heals to assist my healer, that is fine. They just need to make it so, I have a get away tool. Freedom atm is too much and melee have to much untility. This makes my root unless most of the time and a decent amount of classes can just break my fear. This causes them to mongo.

The halo change was needed. Divine star is better anyway.

Warriors and Dks are the only classes that can break fears without a trinket unless they are an undead class. Shammies can break with tremor totem but shammies are as bad a ret paladins right now.

Warriors and Dks are the only classes that can break fears without a trinket unless they are an undead class. Shammies can break with tremor totem but shammies are as bad a ret paladins right now.

Not Restoration, it's probably the best healer together with Hpalla.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:22 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Yvaelle

Glyph of Mass Dispel is essential to pvp and pve right now - plus GC seems happy with us having the utility that we do, he just wants to make us less survivable - which he seems to believe he has succeeded in doing. We're done offering suggestions for how to gut the class guys, if you want to keep going though, I'm sure you can head over to the Paladin forums and give them ideas about which burst cooldowns and selfless healer mechanics to remove from Ret to make it not competitive

Warriors can break roots in 2 ways and DKs can break stuns, rets can break any slow/root. Melee are too hard to peel -.-

the issue was with fears not snares/roots, but anyway, yeah melee classes are hard to peel that the way it is. Ranged classes get rewarded for being able to successfully snare/root a melee and a melee is rewarding for success sitting on a ranged class, its all about timing.

Glyph of Mass Dispel is essential to pvp and pve right now - plus GC seems happy with us having the utility that we do, he just wants to make us less survivable - which he seems to believe he has succeeded in doing. We're done offering suggestions for how to gut the class guys, if you want to keep going though, I'm sure you can head over to the Paladin forums and give them ideas about which burst cooldowns and selfless healer mechanics to remove from Ret to make it not competitive

It's already not competitive, so it doesn't need help in that, as you can see here.

Especially now glyph of MS is gone, might see people running glyph of MB for more RNG. Imagine a 4 second stun out of your silence, thats a 9 second lock down. Though having never used it and thus never researched it I'm not sure what DRs the glyph shares as to how well it would synergise with other comps. again tho with shadows 10% crit, it would be more rng.

The "unable to move" on Glyph of Mind Blast - even though the effect is called "Paralysis" is just a root, not a stun. Also, with 10% crit and an 8 second cooldown - you would have to be allowed to freecast for 80 seconds on average per 4 second root. Nobody will ever use Glyph of Mind Blast in pvp or pve - it's a remmant from when Mind Spike gave you a 30% higher chance to crit on Mind Blast stacking up to 3 times - then it was a reliable root if you weren't using DoTs - that's an interesting trade off - now it's just hoping one of the lowest crit chance specs in the game will crit on a cast cooldown. The chance obviously improves with Divine Insight, but there are many way better glyphs - Mass Dispel, Dark Binding, Vampiric Embrace, Inner Fire, Inner Sanctum.

Edit: Also sorry for the jab at Rets, it was meant to be tongue in cheek - I *know* rets aren't content with their position (especcially in RBG representation), which was meant to be my point I was thinking of the GC comment the other day to Rets about their utility buff to make them more valued in RBGs (which was obviously silly).