It really wouldn't be football season if we didn't have JB running around declaring that the future is nothing but rainbows and flowers for six months leading up to the season and him eating his stupid... er.... I mean optimism for the 400th time.

e0y2e3 wrote:It really wouldn't be football season if we didn't have JB running around declaring that the future is nothing but rainbows and flowers for six months leading up to the season and him eating his stupid... er.... I mean optimism for the 400th time.

Again, what are you talking about?

I've been beaten senseless for alleged negativity more often than not. If the Tribe had 1/4 of these young prospects you'd be jizzing.

We're adding a QB that has never in his life ran a real offense and is right now nothing more than a statutory enigma with a strong arm.

We're adding a WR that is fast and big but nothing else, as he hasn't played college ball for a year, was kicked off his team and has proven literally nothing on the field aside from "runs fast and is big," HI QUINCY MORGAN!

We're adding an ORT whose ranking was all over the board and also have to consider that projecting O-Linemen from college to the NFL is about as easy as predicting a AA pitcher to the MLB. O-Line is one of the biggest crapshoot positions out there, outside of QB and WR.

The only can't miss stud is the RB, which also happens to be one of the least valuable positions in the new age NFL.

We're fielding an offense with 55 first or second year players running around praying they don't ruin each others development by being so young they fuck everything up and get Weedon killed.

e0y2e3 wrote:We're adding a QB that has never in his life ran a real offense and is right now nothing more than a statutory enigma with a strong arm.

We're adding a WR that is fast and big but nothing else, as he hasn't played college ball for a year, was kicked off his team and has proven literally nothing on the field aside from "runs fast and is big," HI QUINCY MORGAN!

We're adding an ORT whose ranking was all over the board and also have to consider that projecting O-Linemen from college to the NFL is about as easy as predicting a AA pitcher to the MLB. O-Line is one of the biggest crapshoot positions out there, outside of QB and WR.

The only can't miss stud is the RB, which also happens to be one of the least valuable positions in the new age NFL.

We're fielding an offense with 55 first or second year players running around praying they don't ruin each others development by being so young they fuck everything up and get Weedon killed.

And the defense sucks.

WOOHOO!!!!!

Ur looking for negatives. Ur not discussing.

Sam Bradford ran a Big French offense. Cam Newton ran an option one read. Its about the skill set and how they project as prospects. weeds has a huge plus are with accuracy. Didnt throw a ton of picks. I see no reason why he doesnt project to Joe Flacco. Only legit potential issue I saw was pocket presence under pressue. wee'll know soon if he's gabbert.

Mitchell is a rock solid ORT prospect.

That's what they are is prospects. We just don't know. But this is the best prospect set we've added in a long, long time.

e0y2e3 wrote:Sam Bradford ran an offense where they called plays, a leg up on The Ginger. Again, the kid ran about as far of a system from a real offense as you can. Leach's system is more NFL comparable.

And Cam Newton was set free last year to run a true run around and play offense, not a pure WCO (which no other team in the league is dumb enough to run).

Not to mention that Cam and Bradford were both over 2x the prospect Weedon is, that is why Fat Ass offered his whole draft for Bradford.

All that still doesnt mean he's not the equivalent of a AA pitcher with a 100 MPH fastball, control, and 3 picthes. Of course he's got a development curve. Still a hell of a prospect. I'm not wishing in Charlie Frye here.

The Eagles announced via a statement on Friday that Tom Heckert had been given a contract extension through 2011 and that Howie Roseman had been promoted to vice president of player personnel. They then declined interview requests with Heckert, Roseman or coach Andy Reid, who has final say over personnel decisions.

Roseman replaces Jason Licht, whose firing still has not been announced by the team.

Here is Les' take on what this all means from Saturday's Daily News ... We won't even make you click a link, by just pasting in the text:

The Eagles still haven't announced the departure of player personnel vice president Jason Licht, but they gave his title away yesterday to Howie Roseman, the team's former vice president of football administration.

As the Daily News reported last week, a bitter falling-out with Roseman is believed to have led to Licht's dismissal.

Yesterday's move is interesting for several reasons.

Roseman, originally team president Joe Banner's protégé, is taking a scouting job, without a lot of scouting in his background. Licht was perceived to be close to general manager Tom Heckert, who hired him from the Patriots in 2003. Meanwhile, Eagles pro personnel director Scott Cohen, who also works for Heckert, is leaving the Eagles for an assistant GM job with the New York Jets.

Those moves would seem to further speculation that arose when the Eagles more or less openly encouraged Heckert to apply for the GM's job in Atlanta last January, a post he did not get. The media perception that Heckert might no longer be an ascending star in the organization might have led to yesterday's other announcement, that the team has extended Heckert's contract to 2011.

The Eagles declined to make Roseman, Heckert or head coach Andy Reid, who has final say in personnel matters, available to reporters, rather issuing a statement from Reid.

"I feel we have strengthened our personnel staff today by extending Tom's contract and by promoting Howie Roseman," Reid said. "Tom's leadership and work ethic has continued to impress me over the years. Tom has also done a great job of nurturing and incorporating Howie's talent into the personnel side of the organization. Howie has demonstrated a sharp eye for talent evaluation along with a knack for creative draft and free agent strategies. Both Tom and I feel Howie will be an excellent addition to the Philadelphia Eagles personnel staff."

Roseman, 33, joined the team in 2000 as salary cap/staff counsel. He became director of football administration in 2003 and vice president of football administration in 2006.

Licht, 37, first worked with Heckert in 1995-96 in Miami. When the Trenton Times broke the story that he was leaving, speculation held that the team was holding off announcing his departure until he had another job. So far, that hasn't happened.

Cohen, 39, is a Philadelphia native who grew up in Cherry Hill. He handled much of the team's advance scouting.

There’s speculation in league circles that, apart from Lerner’s apparent lack of interest in being an NFL owner, he decided to liquidate the Browns because he needed the cash to finance the operations of his English soccer club, Aston Villa.

There’s speculation in league circles that, apart from Lerner’s apparent lack of interest in being an NFL owner, he decided to liquidate the Browns because he needed the cash to finance the operations of his English soccer club, Aston Villa.

mattvan1 wrote:I would like to share your optimism, but this is simply pure speculation on Heckert. So they both worked in the Eagles org - maybe they hated each others guts? Maybe not, but at this point waaaaaaay to ealy to tell what happens to the FO after the season.

Holmgren certainly gone, agree there. As far as the timing, could not be worse, IMO. Everything Lerner has touched Browns-wise turned into a dumpster fire, and just when the entire seal brown and orange nation is optimistic he bails. Poor Randy, can't even sell the team without shitting the bed. At least he has the "no move guarentee" in place

Better now than never, though.

What if... What if Walrus and Heckert got wind of this sale before the draft, and knew they had to toss out their five year plan and get it done NOW or else...

BOOM Trade up to get TR and BW. While keeping a high 2 for an OL.BOOM "Trade" the future 2nd round pick for JG.

Their whole philosophy changed seemingly overnight, five year plan (matching their five year contracts), out the window. I wonder if this sale changed their mind, put them in survival mode...

There’s speculation in league circles that, apart from Lerner’s apparent lack of interest in being an NFL owner, he decided to liquidate the Browns because he needed the cash to finance the operations of his English soccer club, Aston Villa.

Near the bottom of the "feedback" section under the PFT article linked above

Eagles fan here. You summary as to what happened in Philly is dead on. Banner wanted Heckert out and Roseman in. Details as to why never really came out and since Heckert’s drafts were above average I assume it was a personality clash.

As for Joe Banner it’s a good news/bad news thing. The bad news is he has the personality of a wet dishrag and often acts like he’s the smartest guy in the room. The good news is that he usually is the smartest guy in the room. He was a highly competent team President and probably managed the cap better than any team int he league. I honestly can’t think of a single player they lost via free agency that they really wanted to keep for cap reasons his entire time here. He didn’t let fan presure (i.e. signing fading popular veterans to extensions) get in the way of doing what they thought was best.

If he can’t get past whatever (perceived) personality conflicts he had with Heckert and keep him around I think you will like him as team President. Good luck to you guys as you have suffered long enough.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

There’s speculation in league circles that, apart from Lerner’s apparent lack of interest in being an NFL owner, he decided to liquidate the Browns because he needed the cash to finance the operations of his English soccer club, Aston Villa.

Near the bottom of the "feedback" section under the PFT article linked above

Eagles fan here. You summary as to what happened in Philly is dead on. Banner wanted Heckert out and Roseman in. Details as to why never really came out and since Heckert’s drafts were above average I assume it was a personality clash.

As for Joe Banner it’s a good news/bad news thing. The bad news is he has the personality of a wet dishrag and often acts like he’s the smartest guy in the room. The good news is that he usually is the smartest guy in the room. He was a highly competent team President and probably managed the cap better than any team int he league. I honestly can’t think of a single player they lost via free agency that they really wanted to keep for cap reasons his entire time here. He didn’t let fan presure (i.e. signing fading popular veterans to extensions) get in the way of doing what they thought was best.

If he can’t get past whatever (perceived) personality conflicts he had with Heckert and keep him around I think you will like him as team President. Good luck to you guys as you have suffered long enough.

From all accounts, Banner is a world class douche, but he doesn't have to be a good guy. He just needs to be competent and make the right decisions.

My greatest fear doesn't have anything to do with Heckert (even though I like Heckert and hope he stays). My greatest fear is that suddenly we switch to a coaching staff that like the 3-4 and some ground control offense and suddenly we're back to the beginning of a 3 year plan and half of the guys Heckert drafted don't fit the scheme and shoot me in the head I'm sick of reboots.

justmebd wrote:Hey, I hope I'm wrong about the Weeden thing, and I know Heckert is the GM who drafted him . . . BUT (and it is a big BUT)

What does Weeden lack as a prospect?

Nothing. He's perfect.

He lacks nothing.

At least nothing you haven't read or heard or hundred times but won't admit til you see it play out on Sundays.

Key rhist. Can we just be grown ups?

Being serious; he had issues with up-the-middle pressure at times according to some scouts. Legit. Can't wear a skirt on Sunday. He comes out of a chuck it non-system, so he'll have to learn an offense. I promise you I get that.

Having said that, I don't hink it is a radical rose-colored take to say as a prospect he's a number one pick, would have gone higher if not for the agething in all probability, has a howitzer that is accuarate, and doesn't seem like a boot head.

Is there no reason for some optimism here? Has the derision quotient risen that high?

The single biggest part of being an NFL QB is being able to read and execute a system, not having a strong arm.

The number of NFL QBs that can throw a hundred and have failed is as high as it is for a reason, a QB is literally nothing if he doesn't read and execute, so starting with unbridled optimism is ridiculous.

e0y2e3 wrote:The single biggest part of being an NFL QB is being able to read and execute a system, not having a strong arm.

The number of NFL QBs that can throw a hundred and have failed is as high as it is for a reason, a QB is literally nothing if he doesn't read and execute, so starting with unbridled optimism is ridiculous.

Watch the guy play real games then we can talk.

You see "unbridled optimism" in m takes. I see them as guarded optimism based on slot selection and talent.

I read unbridled pessimism in your takes, as if you expect failure.

I just don't see reason for it.

Obviously the jury is out. I just like the raw material.

I don't question your take on decision making ability as the top factor. But in today's NFL I would suggest you put too little emphasis on the ability to havethe arm to use the whole field. I believe the game is at a point where this is now critical for a top flight offense (as opposed to say, mobility).

I would also add that we need to watch the real games in 2013 before we know what's what. I'm still expecting the W range for this bunch to be withing 3 - 6.

Color me crazy, but going preseason goo-goo-ga-ga over a guy that was a large degree behind Ryan Tannehill as a prospect just isn't my style. I'm not going to say he can't be an NFL QB but sitting here bragging about his arm strength is about as meanginful as talking about Dion Waiters playing in summer league. Sure it may end up part of a rosey and nice story but for now it's nothing more than pulling wishful thinking out of thin air and extrapolating it into mattering.

Fact: The guy has never performed the single most important aspect of being a QB

Fact: The guy also has struggled to stand in the pocket

Fact: There is nothing to say about the guy as a prospect until we see him address these things, everything else is wishful ridiculousness. I don't see you running around the Indians board posting about L_Wash's tools, because that would be ridiculous, so why are you being ridiculous here?

There's no reason to not see it as somewhere in the middle with Weeden.

The windows are small in this league, and they open & close much quicker as well. His arm strength just might be the difference in the progression (of lack thereof) that we've seen from our last two QB prospect hopefuls in which the future of the franchise was laid at their feet. IOW his arm could make up for some mistakes and speed up his learning curve to some degree. His arm will have to be accounted for by defenses, not really ever the case since 1999, with 1 Dumb Ass exception.

Weeden is generally considered intelligent, and is at the age in which his maturity and street smarts (in general) are going to be higher than 95% of all QB prospects, regardless of talent and hardware.

Add to the mix the FO's legit attempt at trying to improve the OL/offense and there really is no reason to not be optimistic about Weeden's start to his career.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Summer is over. We don't have to fill our non-football days with meaningless argument. We can actually watch him play now. Let's check that out before we check back in with our stupid love-him/hate-him "I have concerns"/"I think he'll be great" takes.

PS - If you think Weeden is behind Tannehill as a prospect for any reason other than age, then your agenda is showing.

Last edited by Hikohadon on Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

justmebd wrote:Hey, I hope I'm wrong about the Weeden thing, and I know Heckert is the GM who drafted him . . . BUT (and it is a big BUT)

What does Weeden lack as a prospect?

Nothing. He's perfect.

He lacks nothing.

At least nothing you haven't read or heard or hundred times but won't admit til you see it play out on Sundays.

Key rhist. Can we just be grown ups?

Being serious; he had issues with up-the-middle pressure at times according to some scouts. Legit. Can't wear a skirt on Sunday. He comes out of a chuck it non-system, so he'll have to learn an offense. I promise you I get that.

Having said that, I don't hink it is a radical rose-colored take to say as a prospect he's a number one pick, would have gone higher if not for the agething in all probability, has a howitzer that is accuarate, and doesn't seem like a boot head.

Is there no reason for some optimism here? Has the derision quotient risen that high?

Right. Your question is all kinda growed up.

If you know what he lacks as a prospect then don't type something in there that makes you look as though you don't. Or that you lack the understanding to know how critical that 'little' pressure issue is.

Yes, "issues with pressure" concerns me.

I hope and pray (and yeah, I believe) he's better than McCoy. But if "issues with pressure" can be dismissed so that we ask "What does Weeden lack as a prospect?" then you can also ask the folks in Aurora whether, aside from the shooting thing, they liked the Batman movie.

I agree Hiko, that is kind of my point. Running around proclaiming this draft the greatest collection of prospects ever in Cleveland is just silly.

RE: Tannyhill and Weedon, by JB's throws hard measurement a guy that throws hard and can run (while having an excuse for being raw) is a better prospect. Since that is all that matters to JB facts be facts.

e0y2e3 wrote:I agree Hiko, that is kind of my point. Running around proclaiming this draft the greatest collection of prospects ever in Cleveland is just silly.

RE: Tannyhill and Weedon, by JB's throws hard measurement a guy that throws hard and can run (while having an excuse for being raw) is a better prospect. Since that is all that matters to JB facts be facts.

Lerner's retaining 30% per ProFootballTalk.

As to Weeden, we'll know beginning in 6 weeks or so.

But it just tickles me to know end that because it's our guy with a strong arm that little things like "doesn't handle pressure" just goes aside.

If it was the Chiefs QB people wouldn't have an issue remembering that having difficulties handling a rush or inside/outside pressure (or anything at all really) was an actual weakness or at least a concern (or at the very least had an effect on ones prospect status).

Here it's not even considered. There's no other way to look at it if someone who have faith understands the game is asking what Weeden lacks as a prospect.

Sorry. I apologize if the track record for guy out of college with "Throws hard, has difficulties at time handling rush/pressure" is generally poor. Hopefully what looks to be a really promising OL can help minimize the effect and Weeden grows his own game as well.

e0y2e3 wrote:I agree Hiko, that is kind of my point. Running around proclaiming this draft the greatest collection of prospects ever in Cleveland is just silly.

RE: Tannyhill and Weedon, by JB's throws hard measurement a guy that throws hard and can run (while having an excuse for being raw) is a better prospect. Since that is all that matters to JB facts be facts.

Just talking prospects, Weeden has a stronger arm and better accuracy, not to mention his production is off the charts better than Tanny. The only thing Tanny has on Weeden is mobility and youth, the latter being the overriding reason why a team would take him over Weeden.

Which I get, but watching Tanny throw the ball and the way it appears he goes through progressions, he's a project I wouldn't touch in the Top 20.

Saying Weeden is a better prospect than Tanny isn't necessarily a compliment.

e0y2e3 wrote:I agree Hiko, that is kind of my point. Running around proclaiming this draft the greatest collection of prospects ever in Cleveland is just silly.

RE: Tannyhill and Weedon, by JB's throws hard measurement a guy that throws hard and can run (while having an excuse for being raw) is a better prospect. Since that is all that matters to JB facts be facts.

Lerner's retaining 30% per ProFootballTalk.

As to Weeden, we'll know beginning in 6 weeks or so.

But it just tickles me to know end that because it's our guy with a strong arm that little things like "doesn't handle pressure" just goes aside.

If it was the Chiefs QB people wouldn't have an issue remembering that having difficulties handling a rush or inside/outside pressure (or anything at all really) was an actual weakness or at least a concern (or at the very least had an effect on ones prospect status).

Here it's not even considered. There's no other way to look at it if someone who have faith understands the game is asking what Weeden lacks as a prospect.

Sorry. I apologize if the track record for guy out of college with "Throws hard, has difficulties at time handling rush/pressure" is generally poor. Hopefully what looks to be a really promising OL can help minimize the effect and Weeden grows his own game as well.

We've had the discussion before on the validity of the "pressure" charge, but let's agree that it is possible and let it go at that (since that is more of the pointless arguing over speculation). What we know for certain (at least, I hope we do) is that Colt is clearly not starting caliber material, so they had to make a move. Weeden is that move.

Could he be bad? Sure. Worse than McCoy? Doubtful, but I guess anything is possible.

But knowing that any more time spent on McCoy is wasted time, I find it a very smart move to instead roll with an unknown that - at the very least - has the physical talent to be a starting NFL QB.

That is all Weeden represents - almost assuredly can't be worse, has the tools to possibly be much better. The rest is righteous speculation. We should have an increasing amount of data on a go-forward to end that.

Not that any of this gives me a good feeling, but if the Browns brought in Tom Brady I'd probably feel like that would end up shit too. Freakin' gun shy, we are.

You just keep trying out QB prospects until one eventually sticks, I guess. If Weeden bombs, they'll be in position (in perpetuity) to try again. Probably with a different GM and different coach.

Hikohadon wrote:PS - If you think Weeden is behind Tannehill as a prospect for any reason other than age, then your agenda is showing.

This.

If Weeds was even 26 in stead of 28, he'd have gone 3d overall.

Having a better feel in the pocket and teams having more confidence him being able to read defenses would've advanced him far more than two years younger would have.

If he had these two things you'da had several teams movin' on up.

Not passin' judgement on the guy either way - no need, we're gonna see it from the jump. And I'd rather take that look than watch Colt again - but in today's NFL those are two VERY BIG issues you, I or anyone else has no real idea about.

As a matter of fact, if he had those the Browns would've drafted him with Richardson's pick (if nobody beat them to the punch) and I'd be more optimistic.

e0y2e3 wrote:The fact that the Cleveland Shitstains can be valued near $1BB (inaccuracy of Forbes aside) tells you all you need to know regarding the stupid profitability of the NFL.

And all you need to know about Arthur B. Modell

You mean that he gave up on the Cleveland market to build one of the three most valuable NFL teams in Baltimore?

Because yeah, that's pretty good bidness.

I know you're just poking at Spin, but Modell got an unbelieveable deal from the state of Maryland, and still pretty much fucked up the Ravens ownership as well, at least from a financial standpoint.

Didn't the league step in and force him to sell to Biscotti? Or am I mis-remembering?

Yes, the league VERY QUIETLY told Modell his time as an NFL owner was over after a few years in Baltimore and it came out he was almost flat broke again. If I knew where the links were, I'd put them up, but this was so long ago now I'm not sure the links even exist at this point.

I just remember it being very strange how quiet the story was, certainly the Beast ESPN underplayed it and even the Cleveland media wasn't paying that much attention to it IIRC.

The ownership 'give a shit' is foolish. All that matters if the guy has cash falling outta his pockets.

After that it's all about getting lucky that he's either not a moron and a disinterested wack job heir or not an arrogant, egotistical a-hole convinced that building a football team is the same effing thing as putting up showers every 20 miles for truckers and selling them awful sausage products as well. God forbid if he believes doing one makes him capable and entitled to tell people how to do the other.

We rejoice that Lerner is gone. Fine. He's a knob who never did a hard day's work in his life. Maybe we can get a guy who built a cable company like James Dolan.

e0y2e3 wrote:I agree Hiko, that is kind of my point. Running around proclaiming this draft the greatest collection of prospects ever in Cleveland is just silly.

RE: Tannyhill and Weedon, by JB's throws hard measurement a guy that throws hard and can run (while having an excuse for being raw) is a better prospect. Since that is all that matters to JB facts be facts.

Lerner's retaining 30% per ProFootballTalk.

As to Weeden, we'll know beginning in 6 weeks or so.

But it just tickles me to know end that because it's our guy with a strong arm that little things like "doesn't handle pressure" just goes aside.

If it was the Chiefs QB people wouldn't have an issue remembering that having difficulties handling a rush or inside/outside pressure (or anything at all really) was an actual weakness or at least a concern (or at the very least had an effect on ones prospect status).

Here it's not even considered. There's no other way to look at it if someone who have faith understands the game is asking what Weeden lacks as a prospect.

Sorry. I apologize if the track record for guy out of college with "Throws hard, has difficulties at time handling rush/pressure" is generally poor. Hopefully what looks to be a really promising OL can help minimize the effect and Weeden grows his own game as well.

It's closing time. Last call for alcohol, and you need a slump-buster. On an 1-10 scale, you've had your eye on a 3 all night. Then, a solid 6 (if there is such a thing as a "solid 6") walks thru the door. And damn if that 6 don't look like an angel compared to the 3.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team