The Derozan back and forth reminds me of the Colangelo back and forth from 2-3 years ago. It was the exact same arguments repeated ad nauseum. At one point, I believe posts were just cut and pastes. Same with the Bargnani threads. It never ended. New people showed up and the old arguments were rehashed.

This forum definitely needs basketball to start....... There are only so many times you can discuss the same 5 things over and over.

The Derozan back and forth reminds me of the Colangelo back and forth from 2-3 years ago. It was the exact same arguments repeated ad nauseum. At one point, I believe posts were just cut and pastes. Same with the Bargnani threads. It never ended. New people showed up and the old arguments were rehashed.

This forum definitely needs basketball to start....... There are only so many times you can discuss the same 5 things over and over.

And you know what is hilarious? I was advocating status quo and pushing the hope/potential agenda at that time.

Anyone here think that DeMar can be a good second option on offense? The reason I ask is that his game seems to dictate how he can be used, and he lacks skills to be a role player (rebounder, 3 point shooter, utility guy that guards multiple positions etc...), so using him as a "go to" scorere is the only way I see him being of any use on the team (barring any drastic changes to his game).

So if he best used as a "go to" type scorer to you think that he can be a good second option behind Gay? Should he be the third option on offense behind Gay and JV? Does being a third option on offense make him obselete in the offense? Blargh, I'm bored.

Anyone here think that DeMar can be a good second option on offense? The reason I ask is that his game seems to dictate how he can be used, and he lacks skills to be a role player (rebounder, 3 point shooter, utility guy that guards multiple positions etc...), so using him as a "go to" scorere is the only way I see him being of any use on the team (barring any drastic changes to his game).

So if he best used as a "go to" type scorer to you think that he can be a good second option behind Gay? Should he be the third option on offense behind Gay and JV? Does being a third option on offense make him obselete in the offense? Blargh, I'm bored.

In the right circumstance, I think he could be, and I've been as vocal as any 'anti-DeRozan' poster on here.

My concern is that Gay, DeRozan and Lowry all need to have the ball in their hands to be successful. Valanciunas and Amir don't need the ball and can clean-up the glass, which is why they fit so well into the Raptors' starting lineup. It's all about 'balance', 'fit' and 'roles' with me, when evaluating the starting lineup, which is why I think a "3 & D" SG would seem to fit so much better into that lineup than DeRozan (ironically I think DeRozan would be an absolute beast of a 6th man scorer, albeit overpaid now for that role). It's nothing personal about DeRozan; it's more a shot against the way this team has been constructed, at least with regards to the starting lineup.

In the right circumstance, I think he could be, and I've been as vocal as any 'anti-DeRozan' poster on here.

My concern is that Gay, DeRozan and Lowry all need to have the ball in their hands to be successful. Valanciunas and Amir don't need the ball and can clean-up the glass, which is why they fit so well into the Raptors' starting lineup. It's all about 'balance', 'fit' and 'roles' with me, when evaluating the starting lineup, which is why I think a "3 & D" SG would seem to fit so much better into that lineup than DeRozan (ironically I think DeRozan would be an absolute beast of a 6th man scorer, albeit overpaid now for that role). It's nothing personal about DeRozan; it's more a shot against the way this team has been constructed, at least with regards to the starting lineup.

Just what would the right circumstance be though? What should your ideal second option on offense be able to do which DeMar is capable of? In my mind going into the post as the second option on offense would be ideal. It's a higher percentage area to score from and would create the balance you spoke of. It's one thing if you have elite type scorers like Durrant/Westbrook or LBJ/Wade scoring and allowing the bigs to clean up, but if your first and second options on offense have yet to sniff and All Star game wouldn't there be more balance with spreading the offense inside and out? Also would make Novak more useful. Thoughts?

I think DeMar should be cutting to the basket every time JV gets his hands on the ball. He elevates quickly and has a good touch around the basket. JV has shown a propensity to learn. I think he could quickly start looking for DeMar if other teams start doubling him this year (which we know they will...they were starting to do it last year).

JV running Pick and Rolls with Lowry, while DeMar cuts to the weak side for the dish with Amir at the foul line and Gay hanging back for the three and quick transition D would be a reasonable use of the starting 5's abilities.

I think DeMar should be cutting to the basket every time JV gets his hands on the ball. He elevates quickly and has a good touch around the basket. JV has shown a propensity to learn. I think he could quickly start looking for DeMar if other teams start doubling him this year (which we know they will...they were starting to do it last year).

JV running Pick and Rolls with Lowry, while DeMar cuts to the weak side for the dish with Amir at the foul line and Gay hanging back for the three and quick transition D would be a reasonable use of the starting 5's abilities.

That is relying heavily on JV, a second year Centre. I don't know if stats back me up, but I seem to remember him turning the ball over a lot when option A of going to the rim was taken away from him, so I get this feeling it's going to take a while before he can become a reliable outlet/passer. He's still trying to get the first option down.

Also, in this scenario DeMar is bumped down to 3rd option on offense and the question was in what circumstance could he be a good 2nd option on scoring.

Just what would the right circumstance be though? What should your ideal second option on offense be able to do which DeMar is capable of? In my mind going into the post as the second option on offense would be ideal. It's a higher percentage area to score from and would create the balance you spoke of. It's one thing if you have elite type scorers like Durrant/Westbrook or LBJ/Wade scoring and allowing the bigs to clean up, but if your first and second options on offense have yet to sniff and All Star game wouldn't there be more balance with spreading the offense inside and out? Also would make Novak more useful. Thoughts?

There are 2 things that come to mind, which could improve the overall balance of the starting lineup, to allow DeRozan to flourish as a 2nd option scorer. One or both of them would make him fit much better than he does now (which isn't just on him, as the same type of argument could be made against Gay and/or Lowry).

The first problem is the redundancy between Gay and DeRozan, in that they're both wings who tend to work off ISO's. Essentially, I think either Gay or DeRozan need to go, unless the team plans to run a super up-tempo game (which doesn't bode well for Valanciunas/Amir, so that seems doubtful). If the primary scorer was more of a low-post threat, then DeRozan could be the #2 scorer in a big/small approach (essentially filling Gay's role in Memphis, when he was #2 behind Randolph/Gasol). I still think the lack of a consistent 3pt shot hurts DeRozan, so hopefully he can finally show some real improvement behind the arc, which would go a long way towards making defenses honest.

The second problem is Gay and/or DeRozan playing alongside a dribble-dominant PG, who relies more on penetration than a traditional pass-first PG. Having such a PG run the show only adds to the 'need ball in hands' redundancy problem. Theoretically this could work, having Lowry penetrate off the dribble, with Gay & DeRozan lining up on opposite sides of the court and Valanciunas in the low-post. Lowry would penetrate, kick the ball out and eventually either Gay or DeRozan would find a hole to cut to the basket (with or without the ball). Unfortunately, in that scenario, I think Amir would have to be replaced with a stretch-4. It's such an odd, non-traditional approach, that I would rather keep Amir and trade DeRozan (or Gay and/or Lowry).

I just think a lineup with 2 similar ISO-dependent wings (neither of which is a high % 3pt shooter), a dribble-penetration PG, a P&R C and a non-stretch4 PF, is a very clunky offensive unit. Whether DeRozan is the one to replace or not, is certainly up for debate.

I think DeMar should be cutting to the basket every time JV gets his hands on the ball. He elevates quickly and has a good touch around the basket. JV has shown a propensity to learn. I think he could quickly start looking for DeMar if other teams start doubling him this year (which we know they will...they were starting to do it last year).

JV running Pick and Rolls with Lowry, while DeMar cuts to the weak side for the dish with Amir at the foul line and Gay hanging back for the three and quick transition D would be a reasonable use of the starting 5's abilities.

I know a SG on the Raps' roster who is fantastic playing off the ball and making backdoor cuts. He also happens to be a great perimeter defender. If his 3pt shot returns this season...

Anyone here think that DeMar can be a good second option on offense? The reason I ask is that his game seems to dictate how he can be used, and he lacks skills to be a role player (rebounder, 3 point shooter, utility guy that guards multiple positions etc...), so using him as a "go to" scorere is the only way I see him being of any use on the team (barring any drastic changes to his game).

So if he best used as a "go to" type scorer to you think that he can be a good second option behind Gay? Should he be the third option on offense behind Gay and JV? Does being a third option on offense make him obselete in the offense? Blargh, I'm bored.

Not if your first option is Rudy Gay. The majority of your shots are going to be the worst in the league - the type of shots that teams today are willing to give up and by taking you are playing in to their game plan.

He is too one-dimensional at this time to be considered a 3rd option because he doesn't bring anything else to the table.

Where he could likely thrive is as a 6th man.

As a 2nd option I think you need a dominant big man and at least 2 exception 3-point shooters one of which must be a stretch 4 (think Ilyasova or Ryan Anderson).

In the right circumstance, I think he could be, and I've been as vocal as any 'anti-DeRozan' poster on here.

My concern is that Gay, DeRozan and Lowry all need to have the ball in their hands to be successful. Valanciunas and Amir don't need the ball and can clean-up the glass, which is why they fit so well into the Raptors' starting lineup. It's all about 'balance', 'fit' and 'roles' with me, when evaluating the starting lineup, which is why I think a "3 & D" SG would seem to fit so much better into that lineup than DeRozan (ironically I think DeRozan would be an absolute beast of a 6th man scorer, albeit overpaid now for that role). It's nothing personal about DeRozan; it's more a shot against the way this team has been constructed, at least with regards to the starting lineup.

This is just wrong. In fact it's exactly the opposite. Part of the reason DeRozan hasn't been efficient is because he's often asked to create his own shot off the dribble late in the shot clock. He should primarily be an off-ball player if we want to maximize his abilities.

DeRozan should be used exactly the same as Rip Hamilton was in Detroit. Their skill-sets are pretty much identical. Idk why this team has spent so much time trying to groom DD into Kobe when he's more of a Rip type.

My concern is that Gay, DeRozan and Lowry all need to have the ball in their hands to be successful.

This statement right ere is likely one of the most over used,and seldom correct in pro sports. try to look at it this way.... you will have players that are able to play within a team concept. run the sets, set the picks properly, and be mentally prepared to perform when their number is called. The are called pros. A player doesnt "need" the ball in his hands, he just "wants" the ball in his hands.

When i look at demar, he doesn't really need the ball. In fact I don't see Gay or Lowry as having that problem either. I do see a mental issue where they may not be able to fully accept that they don't have it, and that they may not be ready coming in to hit shots....thats on them and they coaching staff. Less pissing around in the shoot around, more focus on the shots they will be expected to hit. I have been to a great number of games, I watch these guys prepare, and they aren't always getting themselves where they need to in order to be ready physically or mentally to hit a shot. Again, thats on them, they don't NEED the ball in the game, they NEED to be prepared....the game is not time to "warm up and start to feel it".

As for who who emerges as the principal scorer, that will play itself out. It's numbers, consistency and a willingness to assert yourself effectively when its needed, and t also your TEAMS job to recognize the guys getting hot. I am so bothered when I hear that certain player need to "have the ball in their hands". Its a selfish mindset. I watch Lebron perform to a pretty massive level and he doesnt necessarily demand to have the ball in his hands. And if you over play him, he will make you pay by passing the ball to marginal players who are simply ready to perform when the ball comes to them. Championship.

I think what you see in Toronto is a number of equally effective options. but what has not happened, due to injury, or trades mid season, is that gelling you need when the players all understand where they need to be on the floor, and who is best at what. I think this year might provide more time for that. And it will, if the players all approach it professionally and not like a bunch of contract hungry Jackals (are you listening Kyle), it will put the Raps in position to win a lot more games.