Plus the best thing for that area is to get a resident population move in who are comfortable with its entertainment nature. Would give a better mix to the sidewalk traffic
to have residents as well as all the out-of-area people who come down for the clubs.

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300 Front is only covers the southeast quadrant of the block and M5V is a 1/4rd the size. Charlie is south of Glas and 21 Widmer doesn't include the lowrises to the north and south of the site (Horrah! The Tree is Safe!)

Great work cruzin4u!
That area is exploding with projects! Must be the attraction of the "Theatre District" for the moneyed mobile intelligentia.
New proposals beyond what I can keep up with. Great to have them mapped for us.

Plus the best thing for that area is to get a resident population move in who are comfortable with its entertainment nature. Would give a better mix to the sidewalk traffic
to have residents as well as all the out-of-area people who come down for the clubs.

Couldn't agree more. The mix of people on the street is definitely different here than the rest of downtown. This area and places like the Eaton Centre get invaded by people who don't live here. The vibe is much more suburban, and generally less comfortable for many downtown folk. The entertainment district is almost a 'no go' area in the evenings and weekends.

2 men holding hands going to Circa nightclub? Not a good idea unless you want to get some verbal abuse, a bat to the head, or at the very least, some jeers and gawking. I don't want to categorize these visitors as unpleasant or thugs, but they are certainly less used to diversity. Having more locals actually living in areas like this will make these areas much better, and much more cosmopolitan.

Couldn't agree more. The mix of people on the street is definitely different here than the rest of downtown. This area and places like the Eaton Centre get invaded by people who don't live here. The vibe is much more suburban, and generally less comfortable for many downtown folk. The entertainment district is almost a 'no go' area in the evenings and weekends.

2 men holding hands going to Circa nightclub? Not a good idea unless you want to get some verbal abuse, a bat to the head, or at the very least, some jeers and gawking. I don't want to categorize these visitors as unpleasant or thugs, but they are certainly less used to diversity. Having more locals actually living in areas like this will make these areas much better, and much more cosmopolitan.

Less used to diversity? Are you sure you're talking about the GTA? And I don't understand how anyone can possibly give off a suburban vibe. If there is a stereotypical way in which the suburbanites carry themselves, or possibly converse with each other, than please let me know about it. Don't make it seem as if those people are making the trek from country side or something.

Are you kidding me, or do you just not pay attention? You can tell an awful lot about people without any verbal communication at all. It is one of the inherent abilities humans possess in processing the world around us. There are instinctual cues that allow human beings to guage subjective things like socio-economic class, danger, kindness, homosexuality, sophistication, intelligence, and a massive amount of other little tidbits. It's obviously not an exact science, but instinct and 'sizing' people up is one of our most accurate and amazing abilities. You sense certain things unmistakably when you walk into a room full of people. Some people are very good at it. Others, evidently, have very poor abilities in this area.

The Eaton Centre and the Entertainment District are heavily suburban at times. College Park during business hours is another 'hot spot'. It hit me like a tonne of bricks the very first time I visited all 3 of these areas. It isn't by accident that I instinctually picked up on it. They are all areas that suburbanites flock to in droves when they come downtown. Every downtown friend or acquaintance I know has commented on this 'suburban invasion' at one point or another. I'm a little gobsmacked that you are completely oblivious to it. Just because you are blind to it, doesn't mean it's not all there in black and white.

It requires observation skills. Have a closer look around the next time.

Are you kidding me, or do you just not pay attention? You can tell an awful lot about people without any verbal communication at all. It is one of the inherent abilities humans possess in processing the world around us. There are instinctual cues that allow human beings to guage subjective things like socio-economic class, danger, kindness, homosexuality, sophistication, intelligence, and a massive amount of other little tidbits. It's obviously not an exact science, but instinct and 'sizing' people up is one of our most accurate and amazing abilities. You sense certain things unmistakably when you walk into a room full of people. Some people are very good at it. Others, evidently, have very poor abilities in this area.

The Eaton Centre and the Entertainment District are heavily suburban at times. College Park during business hours is another 'hot spot'. It hit me like a tonne of bricks the very first time I visited all 3 of these areas. It isn't by accident that I instinctually picked up on it. They are all areas that suburbanites flock to in droves when they come downtown. Every downtown friend or acquaintance I know has commented on this 'suburban invasion' at one point or another. I'm a little gobsmacked that you are completely oblivious to it. Just because you are blind to it, doesn't mean it's not all there in black and white.

It requires observation skills. Have a closer look around the next time.

Are you kidding me, or do you just not pay attention? You can tell an awful lot about people without any verbal communication at all. It is one of the inherent abilities humans possess in processing the world around us. There are instinctual cues that allow human beings to guage subjective things like socio-economic class, danger, kindness, homosexuality, sophistication, intelligence, and a massive amount of other little tidbits. It's obviously not an exact science, but instinct and 'sizing' people up is one of our most accurate and amazing abilities. You sense certain things unmistakably when you walk into a room full of people. Some people are very good at it. Others, evidently, have very poor abilities in this area.

The Eaton Centre and the Entertainment District are heavily suburban at times. College Park during business hours is another 'hot spot'. It hit me like a tonne of bricks the very first time I visited all 3 of these areas. It isn't by accident that I instinctually picked up on it. They are all areas that suburbanites flock to in droves when they come downtown. Every downtown friend or acquaintance I know has commented on this 'suburban invasion' at one point or another. I'm a little gobsmacked that you are completely oblivious to it. Just because you are blind to it, doesn't mean it's not all there in black and white.

It requires observation skills. Have a closer look around the next time.

Please tell me how you can tell if someone is from, say, Mississauga if you see a bunch of people in the Entertainment District? All the factors that you mentioned (socio economic class, danger, kindness, homosexuality etc) are not uniformly spread across Mississauga. Just in terms of socio-economic factors, the residents of Mississauga vary from blue collar factory workers all the way upto multinational firm executives. I would understand your argument if you were talking about an American city such as Philadelphia or Detroit in respect to its stereotypical upper-middle-class-white-picket-fence suburbs but the GTA is infinitely more diverse in every aspect imaginable (economically, racially, politically, etc). In addition, I don't even know how one is able to deduce someone's intellectual or intelligence level just by looking at them (aside from looking at an individual acting like a lout in a public place).

Suburban and urban people do run the gamut from poor to rich, straight, gay, etc, but it isn't these characteristics that tip one off. There are many subtle differences between suburban and urban people. You mentioned that you can tell the difference between inner city American and white picket fence. Well, instinctually one can do the same thing here, but it is much more subtle.

I definitely know when I see it. If I were alone in my conclusions, I'd doubt my instincts, but absolutely every one of my friends notice the same thing. It's not subtle to us at all. You must have heard the "pass yourself off as a Manhattanite instead of someone from Jersey" acts you see in lineups to Manhattan night clubs? Trust me, people can tell. You can dress 2 people identically, but there are just too many other cues. It's impossible to hide them all. No one is that good an actor.

As, I mentioned, it's not an exact science, but when you stumble upon a group of people on the street that share many commonalities, you notice. If you see one or two people, you might not think anything of it, when it gets to 10-15, you start seeing a pattern, when it goes beyond that, you know something is up.

I'd just like to say, and coming from a gay male, that CIRCA has to be one of the most gay friendly clubs/bars I've ever been to. Gay men don't only hold hands, but much more goes on in the darker corners of the dance floors without any problems.

Not having any problems isn't the guage of whether it is a comfortable environment. There was an undercurrent of uneasiness amongst many of the traditional entertainment district crowd and gay people at Circa. Did you go to opening weekend? You could cut that tension with a knife. There were whole sections of that club where gay people simply didn't go. We all sensed it, went to the other end of the club, and stuck together. Almost everyone else did the same. It was very segregated that weekend.

After quite a few gay bashings inside Circa itself, and the realization that a large portion of gay people just don't feel safe in that neighbourhood on a Saturday night, Gatien has made a huge effort to impress upon those people that their animosity to gay people will not be tolerated. Many of those straight males don't go to Circa anymore, but I still get out of the cab right in front of the club doors.

Things are much better now, but Circa is far from being the most gay friendly club I've been to. The entertainment district on a Saturday night? Circa is safe, but 100 feet in any other direction, and you're looking to get your head bashed in. 20 year old drunk males from the burbs? You are crazy.

I don't know why I feel the need to defend this club except perhaps out of an attempt to create a fair picture of this establishment. No, I didn't go on opening night, but I've been many times since and will continue to go because I feel absolutely safe there; not once did I feel I was in any sort of dangerous situation and never did I feel I had to hide my sexual interests lest any straight male see me. And the area around Circa never seemed more dangerous than any other part of the city, and I've walked back to friend's places along the darkened streets. Anyway, just as you suggest not taking my examples as a proper way to gauge the club, neither can we take the mood of a particular night as a general rule for the average person's experience. But since so many homosexual men and women continue to go week after week, one may think any sort of homophobia isn't very strong.
After writing that, and to stay on topic somehow, I think the interesting lines of this development will compliment this neighbourhood very well! This part of the city really seems to be booming!

I'm glad your experiences have been pleasant. I just think things need to improve outside Circa a great deal. These new condo towers going up might just be what the area needs. If the entertainment district turns into a full fledged community neighbourhood, it will be far more pleasant than it is today.

When you have people living in an area rather than it just being a place to party, things are bound to improve. It will always be noisy, but perhaps not so hostile.

Suburban and urban people do run the gamut from poor to rich, straight, gay, etc, but it isn't these characteristics that tip one off. There are many subtle differences between suburban and urban people. You mentioned that you can tell the difference between inner city American and white picket fence. Well, instinctually one can do the same thing here, but it is much more subtle.

I definitely know when I see it. If I were alone in my conclusions, I'd doubt my instincts, but absolutely every one of my friends notice the same thing. It's not subtle to us at all. You must have heard the "pass yourself off as a Manhattanite instead of someone from Jersey" acts you see in lineups to Manhattan night clubs? Trust me, people can tell. You can dress 2 people identically, but there are just too many other cues. It's impossible to hide them all. No one is that good an actor.

As, I mentioned, it's not an exact science, but when you stumble upon a group of people on the street that share many commonalities, you notice. If you see one or two people, you might not think anything of it, when it gets to 10-15, you start seeing a pattern, when it goes beyond that, you know something is up.

I understand your argument and I too agree that there are subtle hints that people drop every once in a while that tips off their origin (or atleast the fact whether they live in a certain area or not). My only problem with your original statement was the implication that all suburbanites are homogeneously conservative in their social thinking where as all the urban dwellers are much more socially progressive and diverse.

Fair enough. I do think that, in general, people who don't live downtown are less used to seeing men holding hands or some woman walking down the street in Chanel. It's a much rarer sight out in Vaughn or Oakville. They do tend to gawk at what most who live downtown wouldn't bat an eye at. That's what I find a bit uncomfortable at times. People don't like it when they are made to feel like an animal to be stared at in a zoo.

Having said that, it's a minor irritance and sometimes nothing more than amusing. It's just that I live here, and feel 100% comfortable walking around and never feel the need to censor myself. Then, like clock work, every Friday and Saturday night, I know the mix of people on certain streets is going to change significantly, and the gawking will start. Having more condos in these areas will make it a more pleasant environment for me. That's all I'm trying to say, I suppose.

It has to do with familiarity more than suburbanites being intolerant.

The corner of Adelaide and Widmer. The site is to the south and east (Festival sales centre site) of the Corned Beef building.image hosted on flickr

The owner of the Corned Beef building also has a property to the south of the site, a hot dog vender Food Supply business. The main site is sandwiched between the two properties. The developer wants to buy the two properties but the owner does not want to sell.image hosted on flickr