Just so the other thread where this popped up doesn't get derailed, I thought that I'd bring this up here.

Why do certain style of kung fu, karate, whatever, chamber the fist at the hip/waist level when performing certain forms? What is the purpose for chambering the fist like this?In my kung fu experience, I have seen this in the Shaolin Lohan techniques. The only thing that I can figure is that it some how helps to train body coordination.MAybe some of you out there with experience in both chinese and japanese arts can give a bit more insight to this.

Id say it would be rather impossible to pinpoint its exact origin. The list of its purpose here has been pretty good. All that I could add is that some soft styles use this as a way to build power and chi in your center. Also many forms start with this same posturing.

_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be." Lao Tzu

"power starts at the feet, travels through the legs, is controlled by the waist..."The waist is an important muscle/joint, as it is how power is delivered throughout the body. Many styles preach the importance of the waist. Perhaps the chambered fist is partly a way to remember this, emphasize it. Also, since power comes from the waist, maybe starting the fist there allows one to send power there more quickly.

Victor, thanks for posting that link. That has some wondefully insightful info!

After posting I have been playing with the chambering of the fist and other slight variations thereof. There is all kinds of good application to this. There are grabs, elbows and all kinds of other things. I also can see it being used as a mothod to guide power through the body.

Perhaps try experimenting with the level and see where your power comes from. I once met a karateka who was puzzled that his style had a higher position for chambering (chest level, I think) than my TKD. Also, consider boxers and their reaction hand.

Let us know how the experiments go.

By the way, Victor, excellent article.

Edited by trevek (02/18/0603:50 PM)

_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

"Chambered Punch: A strike commonly performed in karate, kung fu, and tae kwon do. It involves thrusting the attacking fist towards the target from the hip, while the opposite hand is pulled back quickly at the same time, acting as a counter-balance. During this movement the hip is rotated forward in a 'snapping' motion. It is considered to have more of a 'penetrating' rather than a 'jarring' effect."

At the basic level its a body flow drill it also teaches that you don't have to draw back behind your shoulder to deliver with power. As you advance its taught as technique such as rear elbow as if punching someone in front and elbowing behind a person starting to bear hug (as an example). Or a arm wrap or arm lock against the body using the chest high chamber. As you advance in our system you do check hand strikes as it is with most fighting systems.

Its just the start of a basic concept that compounds to more advance applications. It keeps the technique compact and concise.

Quote:Its just the start of a basic concept that compounds to more advance applications.

Great point!!! There are quite a few things like this within Bagua. I would consider them to be structural foundation in which technique can be built upon. If you look at a movement in a 3 dimensional manner many applications and techniques can be pulled from it.What can be done with my advancing hand? What can be done with my chambering hand? What can be done with both hands simultaneously? These are all questions we can ask ourselves when we are training on our own. These questions allow ideas about application to arise. The next time you train with someone, take a few minutes to play with these ideas to see what works and what doesn't.

It depends on form. In horse stance punch training it is used on many things. You use it to clearly differntiate yin and yang, one arm fully extended, other at waist. It is purely for training purposes in this case. The twisting of punch from upsidedown to straight creates corckscrew force, along with the stable rooting of legs, and full waist rotation whipping the punch out explosively. The fist going and twisting back can be linked to pulling and twisting someone's arm toward you as you punch.

In Shaolin forms, the hand is pulled back to waist because often times you use the waist and rooting to strike (sideways for example) and the hand goes back. One purpose of this is to "hide the back hand" (other side facing enemy). There you got a fully chambered and loaded fist ready to attack without being seen (remember shaolin punching is about speed-acceleration, and explosively using waist).It is more of a principle, in a fight the arm might be hidden near your chest, or behind your other arm for example.

By pulling with the arm (back to waist) and simultaenously punching with the other hand with full waist force, it helps train your waist for power, because you are symmetrically pulling with one, and punching with other.

In fighting, it is useless, don't mix habit of practice with fighting. That is why you should spar frequently so that you don't make that mistake.

_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

Quote: It is considered to have more of a 'penetrating' rather than a 'jarring' effect."

Well there you go, makes sense to me.

Then perhaps you can explain to us what 'penetrating' / 'jarring' effect means?

My view on the subject is, perhaps with developmental hindsight, one can see / impute all sorts of mechanistic advantages to chambering the fist at the waist (though there are systems where it is at chest level, e.g. phoenix eye)

Since we do not know who (originally) or why (actually) put the fist there, it is equally plausible to say that, like a lot of oriental things (particularly chinese) it is, given the given structure of the human body, just a neat, convenient and visually pleasing place to put it for the sole purpose of developing structural formalisation of the training forms; especially when no one actually fights that way!

Think of lifting your little pinky-finger when you hold a cup of tea; it just feels and looks better on the hands.

I don't think anyone will seriously argue that the bow is actually a head-butt?

If you chamber your fist at your waist you can feel several muscles being used at once. By holding the correct postures you can make you body very agile, strong, and flexible. If you hold your fist like a boxer(hand by your chin elbow by the ribs) you feel very little resistance on your muscles. Which does not help build the kung fu body but which forms are designed to do.

depending on your school and style you will be shown different ideas. Actually I learned both Shaolin Northern and Southern before studying WC. I was never told to fight with my fist chambered, only in forms to have it at rib-cage level. ONE for building shoulder muscles, and the other for teaching you to pull and push with the elbow.

I have not seen a Kung Fu school fight in a chambered position in sparing, but that doesn't mean they are not doing it somewhere.

I don't think anyone at this point is going to argue that chambering the fist while fighting is not a good.It is used as a tool to train a specific movement or range of motion that will be translated into a technique. What the technique is will depend on which range of motion used and the momentum involved. To chamber your fist in a position that leaves part of your body vulnerable in a fight or sparring is senseless. Use the technique that the form teaches you, not the form itself.

Quote:To chamber your fist in a position that leaves part of your body vulnerable in a fight or sparring is senseless. Use the technique that the form teaches you, not the form itself.

If that is true, then why not train or formulate training methods / regimes that will actually conform to the way people usually fight; like the way boxers do?

In other words, how does chambering your fist(s) (some actually chamber both fists at the same time) at the waist while in training translate into actual combat efficiency where there is no chambering at the waist whatsoever?

Look at Wing Chun for e.g.; When they practice their forms, sometimes both fists are chambered at the rib-cage; but when they fight, the hands are held way out in front. And they pride themselves with their 'one-inch' power which requires NO chambering at all; because in a real fight, there is just no time to chamber, and of course you also give your intentions away.

If there was ever a real (original) reason for chambering the fist right up to the tensile end-point of the whole hand in training, it was to apply the idea that by strengthening (speeding up) the pulling muscles (by forceful / fast chambering) you power-up the muscles that do the forward / punching movement (like stretching / twisting a rubber band to give it that snapping power) So that in an actual combat situation, you can have a short-range powerful punch without the need to chamber all the way to the waist.

I have not had the ability to read all the responses to your question..... Perhaps there ARE reasons for specific height placement of a chambered hand in the identical manner there is/are for example a correct position for an arm in a blocking position and not 6" further out?

Perhaps one chambering position lets us figure out how to explore the muscles of the arms & shoulders used & explored by that particular height? eg How can I be powerful from here... now how about from here... what do I have to contract, let go from here...

If you chamber from the identical spot you can isolate things and figure them out. If you start haphazardly from any old position there are too many factors get involved... making it impossible to isolate and identify how to make the shoulder, arm, hand as powerful as it can be for our intended usage.

Imagine someone was in your face and suddenly reaches out to shove you at the chest or grab your shoulder or lapel. If you reach out and grab his sleeve at the elbow or arm (assuming he is wearing a top with sleeves, otherwise, grab yourself a handful of skin), and pull him in straight towards you while stepping back as you extend your other arm forward.

Note what happens to the attacker as you draw him off balance. Now see where your pulling hand is positioned. Ask your partner to step away from you as you maintain the "posture".

Quote:In other words, how does chambering your fist(s) (some actually chamber both fists at the same time) at the waist while in training translate into actual combat efficiency where there is no chambering at the waist whatsoever?

It is the essence of the motion that translates, not the actual motion in and of itself. The forms that these ideas come from train specific ranges of motion in the body that are used durring fighting. The point I was trying to convey was that the motion trained by the form is what we use when fighting, not the actual sequence of the form itself. Fighting would be much easier if all we had to do was stick to a routine. From what I have found, fights are anything but routine.I guess in the long run it is up to us as pratitioners to find the essence of the forms and movements that we train and implement them into to our technique and fighting skill. We need to see how and why things work (or dont work).

Quote:Look at Wing Chun for e.g.; When they practice their forms, sometimes both fists are chambered at the rib-cage; but when they fight, the hands are held way out in front. And they pride themselves with their 'one-inch' power which requires NO chambering at all; because in a real fight, there is just no time to chamber, and of course you also give your intentions away.

I don't know all that much about WC theory, but I would say their training methods and fighting methods look different because they are different and are meant to be that way. In many cases in the MA's, training for power and strength is different than training for fighting. The mechanics used in training for power and strength will differ from those used in fighting. However the essence of the movement is still there.

Quote:..why not train or formulate training methods / regimes that will actually conform to the way people usually fight; like the way boxers do?

There are training methods that are specificaly designed to train fighting skill. Boxers do other types of strength training besides what they use when fighting.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies! I have really enjoyed this topic thus far!!!

My whole point was, that when sparring the fist should not be chambered. People often place to much emphasis on trying to translate the forms into fighting principles when forms should be used to build the body.

Forms should be looked at as way to build the body and to prepare it for the training that is needed in martial arts. Forms should be looked at as a way to gain better health due to the exercises involved that help strengthen muscles, you gain agility, balance, good breathing and a whole host of other assets that benefit the body.

Looking at forms as a vehicle for fighting is such a limited point of view that it over shadows the real benefits from forms.

With everything in its time and place, I would suggest the purpose of forms to provide long life is to learn how to use them exactly as shown to eliminate an attack, hence preserving one's life.

Karate wasn't developed for sparring, sparring became a tool to teach a few specific values, nothing more. Karate wasn't developed for fighting, you can get hurt if you fight. Karate was developed to not fight by ending the attacker before it becomes a fight. That is the purpose one should be working for, IMO.

And in that context, the appropriate use of any technique, including the chambering motion, may be appropriately considered.

The question is not the value of kata, but whether the training program you study or practice, works towards that end.

Be careful ... the phrase Yin-Yang at best is vague and borders on becoming cliche/platitude under the best of circumstances. You spoke of being a training exercise I ask for what purpose, to what end?

Does the height of the chamber matter at all? What about the particular value of the palm upward vs. touching the body vs. ???? The value of the arm I don't think was ever in debate, the "question" was why the specific hand, wrist positions & differing heights of assorted arts chambers???The question is not about the waist/power though, the question is specific to the hand & wrist.

Ummmngh, no offense intended I genuinely intend none... how hard is it to realize that I have two hands and will use them both??? Your/my hand is not hidden in the least... is it ? If "chambering" holds no inherent function/purpose of combat why bother creating the habit then?

Brian, In most kung fu systems forms are for health and not fighting. I fought in the ring for five years in MMA fights, trained at the same boxing gym as Floyd Mayweather Jr. Out of all the things I have done for my health I believe forms to be the best. It's to bad you don't get more health aspects out of your forms.

Yin and Yang in this sense is simple, and not subtle or in-depth like in soft arts.Yang is the aggressive male side, while yin is the female/passive side. Punch out is the yang, and hand coming in is the yang. If you don't understand chinese philosophies and principles and how they apply to MA, then don't worry about it. As I said the palm facing upwards, eventually faces down (when punch is complete), this creates corckscrew force, and is very basic.The hand coming back you use to pull and simulate also exploding your waist forward (while thep pull hand side comes back)

In a fight, it is incorrect to have one side too much yang and too much yin, you want to have about a 60-40 distribution so that one hand isn't always all the way back while the other strikes, and it can't be exploited or used against you.

Other then everything else said and done, have fun, practice however you want

_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

Quote:In a fight, it is incorrect to have one side too much yang and too much yin, you want to have about a 60-40 distribution so that one hand isn't always all the way back while the other strikes, and it can't be exploited or used against you.

I am trying to understand what you mean by a 60 to 40 ratio and what it applies to.

Another application in real dirty fighting on the street or against a skilled opponent we use this same motion to destroy limbs attacking our torso by using the elbow to meet/catch the attacking limb. Its a body shift and then movement just at the movement of contact.

This simple move against a powerful strike or kick can and I know will having you limping taking away one of his weapons. I'd advise against using this practice in classroom sparring unless you want a sparring session to turn into a war!!

Works better when chambered from the chest to the lower ribs, hip chamber needs more adjustments and not as natural but if the intent is to do destory you are not chambering. This is just one of the posture for the elbow.

60-40 he spoke of typically describes weight distribution concerning feet. (ie 60% body weight on the front foot, 40% rear foot). In his specific example it potentially could be describing hands OR feet however. If his description was concerned with hand then the percentage would refer to emphasis (front hand vs. the rear) rather than weight per se I would think.

I must say, that 60/40 for the legs is by far the most balanced leg position for sparring in many CMA's. Still got enough compression in back leg to suddenly spring forward (without telegraphing), and still got some shifting back that you can do on the front foot (from 40, to 0). 70/30 is common in xingyi and bagua, but 60-40 is acceptable too. Also 40 on front still allows to to push off front foot in case you need to move back quickly, and with enough training/conditioning can still kick without being weighed down too much.

Back foot should always be 45 degrees outawrds, that way your natural is a natural alignment, allowing the leg to come forward. Stepping forward (like xingyi), always turn your foot 45 degree outward, for kicks (so your leg comes forward naturally), and for springing forawrd. If you kick in this manner, your leg can thrust forwards, with no body hindering or shifting while kicking (which usually resulsts in imbalance).

didn't read all reply's thoroughly, sorry, but somone was on the right path;

it's a qin na.

a) with my right hand i grab opponents left wrist, forearm, fingers, whatever.

b) i withdraw my right hand "chambering" it, i.e. i twist my opponents limb, simultaneously striking out with my left hand. as i twist, the opponents body will naturally follow the direction of the energy, in other words, they will lean into the twist to try and save their joints. at this point, depending on where you have grabbed, you may have already torn, dislocated or broken something. if not.......

c) since my opponents is already off balance and presumably stunned from my strike it's easy to step the right leg behind my center line in an arc, with the direction of my twisting energy which has already been applied, while hooking the left hand behind my opponents neck finishing with a throw.

Good topic to discuss guys and also good insights. Victor that was good link. Punch is chambered mainly to concentrate ur chi to a central point and to get prepared for your opponents attack. It is the only place from where u can block many types of attacks. u can increase the power of your punch. It is mainly to block ur opponents attack at last movement and surprise him by ur fast and powerful attack.

Quote:Good topic to discuss guys and also good insights. Victor that was good link. Punch is chambered mainly to concentrate ur chi to a central point and to get prepared for your opponents attack. It is the only place from where u can block many types of attacks. u can increase the power of your punch. It is mainly to block ur opponents attack at last movement and surprise him by ur fast and powerful attack.

Did you just learn how to speak ?

How can you read an article like Victors and in the same paragraph say its for chi, the only place to block many attacks, for building power and fast and powerful surpirse attacks

The chambered fist, and the traditional punch in general is one of the best training tools ever, period.

Victors article gives great insight into some of the practical uses of the chamber.

Here is a link to a Kempo artists articles, William Durbin. The first one detailing the use of the traditional punch, the second one not directly related to the chamber but in my eyes it should help in understanding it on your own.

In my current school (Yu Lung Kung Fu), we tend to keep the arm as straight as possible for the most part, since it is hard to bend an arm that can quickly lock in, lending power to a strike.

My last school (Karate) maintained a chambering position as high as possible below the shoulder, giving a highly flexed rear arm. This seemed to facilitate rear empi strikes and made my forward strikes more linear, but weakened locks and throws.

In contrast, the former (waist) chamber enables me to balance more easily by lowering my centre of gravity. If both hands are chambered at the waist, I find it very beneficial for stance training as my centre of mass is further forward. Therefore, when I move my arms out in front for a technique, I find it easier to project forward.

In my experience, the chambering of the fist has a few good uses. I think it is to help the rotation of the waist in the punch, and to balance out the forward motion of the punching hand. More usefully, it could be a simultaneous grab/hit or elbow strike as a few already have mentioned.It could be a block, or it could be used as a subtle guide to off center the opponents strike as you strike him, or any number of things. Im sure it has as many uses as you can think of.

lots of good things mentioned hereyea chambering isnt exactly practical n stuff but there is more than meets the eye. just in general when you see a technique dont just take it for what it is, because behind the movement there is so much more!

OK chambering, yes delivers more power to the punch. But if you look at the chambering motion it is you pulling your hand back in. What can this be used for?? Like mentioned before, an elbow strike, PULLING and I would also like to add that back in the days, when swords were actually used, your sword would be where your fist is. Well atleast the sheath would be. I know that in Aikido, some techniques are derived from having this chambered fist, whether attacking or defending. And if you were holding a sheath then shooting your arm out could be you deflecting something with the sheath?? And punches could translate into you stabbing someone, kinda like a fencing lunge. Only you wont be lunging...oh yea this is just a theory of mine, correct me if needed

Also when translating a technique into its applicable cousin you shouldnt think that you must pull the fist all the way back to your side. If you were pulling then a slight jerk would suffice (kinda like the tip of your elbow to your side). Hopefully you see what I'm saying

There is a technique in the Gao style bagua that is called Chang. It means, Under the Leaves Hides the Flowers. The concept of this means to hide or hiding your attack. In one of the applications, your opponent's attention is drawn high while you attack low with your chambered hand. This sounds similar to what MattJ described as being obscure.

There's a form of chambering in Chen (maybe not really chambering)where you put a fisted hand knuckle side on the hip and twist. This actually works as a wrist lock in some way and is used in breaking bear hug-style holds.

Sorry, horrible description.

_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

I am not 100% sure why there is chambering. My guess is that, like with the transitioning of stances in forms, it is taught to teach you how to coordinate the movement of your body to get the most power out of your punches. That is just a guess, so don't quote me on that. I will ask one of my Sifu's tonight during class, and let you know what he/she says.

Well there is another far more obvious use, I'm quite surprised no one mentioned it actually. Before I say anything I am quite aware that a chambered punch isn't a "fighting", "Sparring" or "Cage Fighting" technique!

However thats not to say with very minor mods it isn't a street friendly so called self defence technique which can be very very commonly used very very effectively.

for example during a barfight type situation(or any other just an example) before it "kicks off" during the whole posturing/talking/screaming/threatening stage, you will most likely be in close range with limited space movement, you may also not be able to get up any form of fence to aid you or not want to look overtly aggressive by putting your guard up as you may be able to talk the situation down.

however if you cannot one can't disagree that short of a nice kick in the groin or strike to a vital area (throat, eyes etc) a good hard straight punch to the chin/jaw will generally if done right put your oponent down pretty quickly.if the chambered punch from the hip is well practiced and one can get good snap speed and power from a punch launched at a relaxed hands down position, it becomes a rather powerful self defence tool for an opening either pre-emptive or reactionary defensive offensive strike.

just my 2 cents not saying that it is the best way to punch on the street or anything so please don't misunderstand me but it can work very well as an opening surprise counter if one is being threatened, and can therefore be used for what it is... a punch.

In many fighting systems the core of your power source is said to be your abdomin (stomach). It is also comman knowledge that power is superior when developed from the hips for kicks, punches, knees, elbows, finger strikes, head butts etc etc. So therefore I feel the masters just wanted to put enphasis to an extreme degree so that every time a student practiced a form they reminded themselves physically.

I am afraid that throwing a punch from the hip is effective, especially if your opponent hits you in the street with a bare knuckle when you aren't expecting it. My freind was recently attacked by a thug on the street using this chambering punch technique. My freind had his guard up yet didn't want to throw the first punch.

This guy punched my freind once in the eye and split a big hole in his eye lid where the brow bone pierced through. The fight ended quickly as my freinds eye filled up with blood so he couldnt see properly. My freind fled and got six stitches put in his eye at the infirmary.

The truth is that my freind didn't want to fight yet he was ready to defend himself. He was drunk yet could still stand his ground. The thug on the street attacking him hit him with a fast powerful punch that went through my freinds guard.

The thug was extemely agressive and intent on hurting someone, my freind though knows how to defend himself was on the back foot as he was intimidated by the thugs aggression. Fear is the key especially on the street, but it was still an effective technique.

The thug had two freinds with him that were also nasty thugs and my freind is no Bruce Lee.