I follow Peter's description in this thread but not Gregg's.
If I read Peter's correctly:
Use of AT to get at something could serve as a sufficient technique for the multiple ways SC, but currently WCAG does not offer this as a solution.
Gregg wrote:
Complying, however, isn't any more difficult than ensuring that all these combinations work or that an API can work. For example, how do you ensure you can jump over the ribbons when there are so many different ICs that would include the ribbon.
You just make ribbons be implemented in a standard way that allows you to treat is as an object you can jump over or past. Then there can be any number of different ribbons with different content and they will all comply -- not because you checked each one - one-by-one -but because that is they was they are all implemented.
Huh?
I'm not following along here.
Regarding interaction context, the phrase "active focus" or "active interface element" comes to mind when I think outside a Web environment. I don't extend such context to things a user isn't working with, but may work with. For example, while there are ribbons which I can navigate in various sequences, they don't imply interdependent to me, but maybe if they are viewed from a touchscreen perspective they do? I really want to stress my hope that we can provide readers some clearer sense of why a WCAG guideline applies outside Web, where differences are when doing so, and when possible, what kinds of things are known to have high degree of success in meeting the guideline. I know, some of this is beyond the intended scoping, but is what is needed never the less.
Also, just a thought, maybe we should just toss out voice interactive systems as covered under this expanded scoping as they present so many conceptual challenges for applicability. I think clear guidelines for something like interactive natural language human interfaces is needed, rather than attempting to imply graphical Web interface guidelines to such a radically divergent interface. I question validity of such applicability, and I'm one who loves such interfaces.
e
From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 11:52 AM
To: Peter Korn
Cc: Hoffman, Allen; public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org
Subject: Re: Interaction Context
I understand what you mean.
But that is the nature of software. That is the way it is designed.
Don't see as we have any choice.
Complying, however, isn't any more difficult than ensuring that all these combinations work or that an API can work. For example, how do you ensure you can jump over the ribbons when there are so many different ICs that would include the ribbon.
You just make ribbons be implemented in a standard way that allows you to treat is as an object you can jump over or past. Then there can be any number of different ribbons with different content and they will all comply -- not because you checked each one - one-by-one -but because that is they was they are all implemented.
etc.
Same way APIs can work - even though you can't test them with every possible part of every program in every possible state and data etc.
Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project
http://Raisingthefloor.org --- http://GPII.net
On Jun 19, 2012, at 5:22 PM, Peter Korn wrote:
Allen,
My point is that WCAG doesn't say "you may meet SC x through the use of AT", whereas 508 does (and M376 may). Therefore if we have a requirement that something can be done "in multiple ways", and the only way to get a 2nd (or 3rd) way (to reach "multiple") is by using AT, then in wouldn't actually be possible for the ICT to meet the provision (on its own).
Make sense?
Peter
On 6/19/2012 5:27 AM, Hoffman, Allen wrote:
Peter you wrote:
...
And again - and perhaps more importantly - WHAT DOES THIS MEAN in practice? What are the actual, multiple ways for the ICT itself to provide these multiple ways. Note: unlike 508/M376, we cannot "meet the SC directly or through the use of supported AT" - that's not a WCAG concept. So these multiple ways must be directly provided by the software, or the software fails the SC.
...
Can you elaborate for me?
From: Peter Korn [mailto:peter.korn@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:30 PM
To: Gregg Vanderheiden
Cc: public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Interaction Context
Gregg,
I'm going to cut-and-paste a bit out of order, to hopefully help focus the conversation on a few key issues.
You wrote:
What is an IC
* a modal dialog box (with or without a title) all by itself
* a nonmodal dialog (with or without a title) along with anything else outside of that dialog that belongs to the same application (or it could be a suit) (same 'author) that a user can directly interact with (e.g. ONLY those parts of the menu bar on the top of the screen of a Macintosh that the author intends to work with their program. Other things added by the user are not part of the context for the application (though they are for the user)
...
and later you wrote in response to me:
I'm also troubled by your 3rd bullet. As I read it, if I have 4 windows open - two Writer documents, a Calc spreadsheet, and an Impress slide presentation - they would all be the same IC because they are all part of the OpenOffice suite and therefore the same "author". That doesn't make sense to me. It also breaks down for me 2.4.1 below (which I'll discuss in more detail there).
IF they are designed to all work together -- and you can navigate among them -- and they are intended to work as one -- then yes. If they are just miscellaneous programs from the same company - then they are not the same context.
and yet later:
Grin. I has to do with how they are viewed and work together. Remember that a single application presents MANY DIFFERENT ICs from one moment to the next. So All the apps can be one IC one moment and yet different ICs at another.
the key word is CONTEXT not application. You change context within an app. And your context of operation at any point in time includes the app and the OS.
and finally getting to 2.4.5, in response to me, you wrote:
"2.4.5 Multiple Ways: More than one way is available to locate a dialog box within a set of windows all belonging to the same application except where the Web Page is the result of, or a step in, a process<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#processdef>. (Level AA)"
????? dialog boxes are not ICS -- so I wouldn't expect this to make sense.
I don't understand your substitutions. Hence I'm not surprised the sentences don't computer.
this reads
"2.4.5 Multiple Ways: More than one way is available to locate a IC within a set of ICs except where the IC is the result of, or a step in, a process<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#processdef>. (Level AA)"
So a "modal dialog box" is an IC - perhaps all of the time (or nearly all of the time?). And sometimes a single application with multiple windows is multiple ICs, and other times a single application with multiple windows is a single IC. But in any case, a "set of web pages" (I mean "set of ICs") must always be from the same author to be within the set, so I guess "set of ICs" must always be a set of windows/dialog boxes/etc. from the same application or application suite, else they aren't in the same set.
So, scratching my head a bit about 2.4.5... I come to the following specific recasting (remember, getting specific like this is a way to test the definition - if you cannot substitute the definition for the term, then the definition fails):
"2.4.5 Multiple Ways: More than one way is available to locate a modal dialog box within a set of windows/dialog boxes/... all belonging to the same application or suite of applications, from the same author except where the Web Page is the result of, or a step in, a process<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#processdef>. (Level AA)"
How does that text above NOT flow from your proposed definitions of these terms?
And again - and perhaps more importantly - WHAT DOES THIS MEAN in practice? What are the actual, multiple ways for the ICT itself to provide these multiple ways. Note: unlike 508/M376, we cannot "meet the SC directly or through the use of supported AT" - that's not a WCAG concept. So these multiple ways must be directly provided by the software, or the software fails the SC.
More generally - would you please do as I have done, and give at least one concrete WIMP GUI example of a single IC within a set of ICs and describe the multiple ways of locating that single IC within that set of ICs? Because I'm just not seeing it...
Now, on to some other parts of our discussion...
<snip>
How do we determine whether the author is the same or not?
IF the product is a microsoft product then Microsoft is the 'author". Note that is says author ... organization.
...
I'm also troubled by your 3rd bullet. As I read it, if I have 4 windows open - two Writer documents, a Calc spreadsheet, and an Impress slide presentation - they would all be the same IC because they are all part of the OpenOffice suite and therefore the same "author". That doesn't make sense to me. It also breaks down for me 2.4.1 below (which I'll discuss in more detail there).
IF they are designed to all work together -- and you can navigate among them -- and they are intended to work as one -- then yes. If they are just miscellaneous programs from the same company - then they are not the same context.
...
Remember that a single application presents MANY DIFFERENT ICs from one moment to the next. So All the apps can be one IC one moment and yet different ICs at another.
I don't think this is tenable without a more clear rule. It isn't objectively testable. How do we say when a collection of apps designed to work well together but also available separately is "miscellaneous programs from the same company" or not? If sold separately they are each their own IC, but when available together they loose there separate identities and become part of a larger shared IC? And your final two sentences above are also not at all testable. How can we evaluate provisions that speak to multiple ICs (or a "set of ICs") when sometimes this collection of things is a single IC and other times it is multiple ICs? How do we when when it is one and when it is the other? (like a photon, sometimes a particle, sometimes a wave? and sometimes oth at the same time? but sometimes a particle among a set of waves...??? - quantum electrodynamics isn't my strong suit)
Next topic:
And even if I am mistaken, in a variety of UNIX graphical environments that is the case - there are a number of different apps that may appear to be "the desktop" - certainly different programming groups may have authored them.
Right - and if the authors intend them to all work as one IC they are. Authors intent.
At some point we are going to also have to deal with conformance to WCAG in the context of non-web ICT. A major part of how WCAG conformance is playing out in the world is through evaluation not just by the author. Also by the user or purchaser (or a third party). If "author intent" plays a role in how to give meaning to the terms we use in the context of software, then we have a large potential train wreck ahead of us as folks other than authors attempt to assess whether WCAG is met or not by software ICT.
Next topic:
I also, frankly, question whether 2.4.2 needs to apply to all ICs in the software world - precisely because much of the Intent is addressable without needing to have a visible text title (and the Dock's title isn't visible, just spoken via AT).
You are defining IC as being bits of IC's so you get a dead end-which you should.
Actually, I was caught up in a different way. I was caught up in the notion that the title should be visible. If we addressed 2.4.2 with a Note making clear that the title doesn't have to be visually rendered on the screen by the ICT, then I think we solve the example scenarios I was bringing up. I've added this to DISCUSSION POINTS for 2.4.2:
Note: the title doesn't have to be made visible on the the screen in order to satisfy this Criterion, so long as it is programmatically determinable and available to AT.
Next topic:
You wrote:
[Also, we may need to reconcile that a web browser is software, yet by this definition both a portion of the web browser window - the web page - and the entire window, are both an "interaction context". Is that a problem?]
The web browser is a context by itself -- but the browser is not responsible for the content.
The content Plus the browser is a context to the page author - at least for the browsers the authors intend their page to work with.
Hmmm... So really any sort of "software player" would be presenting 2 ICs: one for the player "chrome", and a second for the "player content". E.g. a Flash application, or Java applet, or... running within a web page is an IC separate from the hosting application (or to use W3C terminology, the User Agent). That certainly is in keeping with the "author" notion.
I think I follow you here. But remember that the author of the "content" includes the player in their IC.
Sorry, you've lost me here. In the web context, we don't hold web page authors responsible for the accessibility of the user agent. If the IC of a Java applet includes the Java runtime, and the IC of the Flash app includes the Flash player, and the IC of the PDF document includes Adobe Reader (or some other PDF viewer)... then you are making authors responsible for something they cannot control.
Why should web authors not be responsible for accessibility of the web browser but authors of highly interactive PDF documents (so they aren't simple electronic content) be responsible for one of several PDF viewers on the market? If they are the same IC, then it seems to me the responsibility issue follows from that (as a WCAG in the software context conformance assessment would get made on the entire IC).
<snip>
* My feeling is that "interaction context" is a poor substitute for web page" in 2.4.2 - as it also is with 2.4.1. This SC is an "irregular verb" that we just need to deal with separately, relying more on the Intent language.
Seems to fit to me.
I only see a possible fit here, and only for the first of the multiple sentences in the Intent, and by doing so in a way that goes beyond what is strictly necessary in the more varied world of software UIs generally.
I think SC is still better served by treating it a (slightly) irregular verb.
Sorry -- I don't understand either sentence. Nor what you mean by a sentence being an irregular verb. If you mean that the term doesn't work here -- I still don't see why.
As I'm now comfortable with 2.4.2, now that I realize the title doesn't have to be visible on the screen, I think the 'irregular verb' and related discussions for 2.4.2 are "overtaken by events".
And finally to a larger concept:
Anyway... my point in this discussion isn't to try to wrestle a whole bunch of provisions all at once, but to see if as a group we have rough consensus that:
* there is a workable notion - precise definition TBD - that works in a lot of places
* there are some places (my "irregular verbs") where a straight substitution doesn't work; so we should some up with a term that does work in the "lots of places" and use it there, but not try to twist either the term or the fitting in order to insist it be used everywhere - (in other words, let our world have a few irregular verbs)
It sounds to me Gregg that you want to keep pushing for a world free of exceptions. Or maybe it is just that you don't see the exceptions where I see them.
Don't know where you get that... I don't agree we should have a world free of exceptions. WCAG is full of them. ANd I endorse a bunch of global exceptions in 508. But we have no authority to create any new exceptions in WCAG or 508. So I'm not sure where the topic comes from.
The 'exception' notion is this: specific SCs for which our mapping of "web page" to "IC" doesn't (quite) work are "exceptions" to *our* mapping rule of "web page" to "IC". For those exceptions we have more work to do in our mapping of the SC to the non-web ICT world.
Make sense now?
Regards,
Peter
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500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
<green-for-email-sig_0.gif><http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment