Blind? I actually live here and grew up here, in various parts of the country, and know well what it is like to live in different areas, i've even spent time in "Trump county" type places and places saturated with guns - and seen the attendant problems. You do not, and are relying on media reports to form your view of the reality of day to day life in the US. Ironically, your viewpoint appears to be just as fear-driven as Trump's, you cannot let go of the idea that people are unsafe everywhere here due to mass shootings, which is demonstrably the opposite of reality - even with the spike in these events.

Twice, at least, you use 'demonstrably' in expressing a view on this thread. You cannot demonstrate an uncertainty, but you seem to be saying your guess is better because you live there, whereas I rely on media reports.
Well, let's unpick that. You rely on media reports also, for all the incidents you did not witness, so let's put that to bed.

Then we have your experience around gun culture. My friend, I am old; I have been bombed several times, shot at etc. in different countries. I understand gun culture, terrororism and have worked with crazed violent teens in schools, as well as trained with UK special forces very briefly. One thing I can say with certainty is that you can be so close to the problem that you cannot contextualise well.

I can't really add much, except that my own view is far from fear driven. However, I am agreeing with those kids in US schools who are fear driven, and who I believe have good reason to fear that whilst the US allows unstable kids to have access to guns, nowhere in the USA is safe from a mass school or mall shooting. Nowhere. The US citizens need to get angry enough at scraping teenage flesh off school walls to actually do something effective, or it will grow.......and then we will have 'demonstrable' evidence.........and I truly hope you all act now in your millions to stop it.

Alll kinds of things can "happen anywhere", this does not imply they are happening everywhere, and knowing the difference is quite important, especially when talking about advocating for policies. As I cannot demonstrate an uncertainty, you also cannot demonstrate that this is "happening everywhere", because it is not. It is quite similar to how people react to terrorism. It's undertsdandable, but it doesn't reflect reality.

The US has a lot of problems, the fact that this happening is as much as symptom of those as it is a cause that can be approached in isolation as you are doing. Your general preachiness about it, and your claims of what the future hold are your own projections, and while you have your own experiences, I don't think you know much about what it is like to live here, nor what the lived experiences of these sorts of problems is like.

I don't have much else to say, because I think you are here to pontificate, and not much else.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

Blind? I actually live here and grew up here, in various parts of the country, and know well what it is like to live in different areas, i've even spent time in "Trump county" type places and places saturated with guns - and seen the attendant problems. You do not, and are relying on media reports to form your view of the reality of day to day life in the US. Ironically, your viewpoint appears to be just as fear-driven as Trump's, you cannot let go of the idea that people are unsafe everywhere here due to mass shootings, which is demonstrably the opposite of reality - even with the spike in these events.

Twice, at least, you use 'demonstrably' in expressing a view on this thread. You cannot demonstrate an uncertainty, but you seem to be saying your guess is better because you live there, whereas I rely on media reports.
Well, let's unpick that. You rely on media reports also, for all the incidents you did not witness, so let's put that to bed.

Then we have your experience around gun culture. My friend, I am old; I have been bombed several times, shot at etc. in different countries. I understand gun culture, terrororism and have worked with crazed violent teens in schools, as well as trained with UK special forces very briefly. One thing I can say with certainty is that you can be so close to the problem that you cannot contextualise well.

I can't really add much, except that my own view is far from fear driven. However, I am agreeing with those kids in US schools who are fear driven, and who I believe have good reason to fear that whilst the US allows unstable kids to have access to guns, nowhere in the USA is safe from a mass school or mall shooting. Nowhere. The US citizens need to get angry enough at scraping teenage flesh off school walls to actually do something effective, or it will grow.......and then we will have 'demonstrable' evidence.........and I truly hope you all act now in your millions to stop it.

Alll kinds of things can "happen anywhere", this does not imply they are happening everywhere, and knowing the difference is quite important, especially when talking about advocating for policies. As I cannot demonstrate an uncertainty, you also cannot demonstrate that this is "happening everywhere", because it is not. It is quite similar to how people react to terrorism. It's undertsdandable, but it doesn't reflect reality.

The US has a lot of problems, the fact that this happening is as much as symptom of those as it is a cause that can be approached in isolation as you are doing. Your general preachiness about it, and your claims of what the future hold are your own projections, and while you have your own experiences, I don't think you know much about what it is like to live here, nor what the lived experiences of these sorts of problems is like.

I don't have much else to say, because I think you are here to pontificate, and not much else.

Too many straw men to comment on in this thread, but I actually wrote about the future not that the shooting ARE happening everywhere. I also said nowhere was safe as long as guns are available to deranged young people, a completely different point. You first claimed things were 'demonstrable' and 'guaranteed' so don't blame me for challenging that assertion.

You seem very keen on inventing points I have not made, and making personal remarks, so I can't really dicuss points with you at the moment as you are clearly upset on a personal level.

... How many US troops on active service were shot by their colleagues?....

It usually numbers about four or five dozen a year at least, often going into the hundreds. Most are not fatal but do result in often horrific injuries. It should be noted that military training is inherently dangerous and one would expect such things to happen. Though thankfully the number of people killed outside combat zones is small. This is a reason LFX's or Live Fire Exercises are conducted with such heightened awareness by all personnel. One of the first things one notices when entering a US military base is that most of the ammunition is locked up in vaults. They do not let people roam about with loaded weapons no matter their level of training. They know from experience how dangerous that is.

All that being said, I think we'd agree completely that there is no comparison between being in the military and being in a elementary, middle, or high school in the US. The former is dangerous while the latter should not be at all. We need comprehensive reform of our gun laws in the US, not more guns. We need comprehensive reform of peoples attitudes towards life, not more killing or methods to kill.

"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."– Longchenpa.

... How many US troops on active service were shot by their colleagues?....

It usually numbers about four or five dozen a year at least, often going into the hundreds. Most are not fatal but do result in often horrific injuries. It should be noted that military training is inherently dangerous and one would expect such things to happen. Though thankfully the number of people killed outside combat zones is small. This is a reason LFX's or Live Fire Exercises are conducted with such heightened awareness by all personnel. One of the first things one notices when entering a US military base is that most of the ammunition is locked up in vaults. They do not let people roam about with loaded weapons no matter their level of training. They know from experience how dangerous that is.

All that being said, I think we'd agree completely that there is no comparison between being in the military and being in a elementary, middle, or high school in the US. The former is dangerous while the latter should not be at all. We need comprehensive reform of our gun laws in the US, not more guns. We need comprehensive reform of peoples attitudes towards life, not more killing or methods to kill.

Thanks for some stats. It was the fact that so far deaths fro shootings in schools were greater than troops on ACTIVE service which really stuck home with me.
In the UK military the US is, perhaps unjustly, notorious for killing people with 'friendly fire' which makes it all the worse.
(I think it stems from conflicts where the US confused allied troop locations with targets.)

"So far this year, more students have been killed in schools than soldiers in combat zones." Rated mostly true.

Mostly true as a statement of numerical fact, but irrelevant as a statistic. The Politifact article concludes with this:

The second caveat to know involves the death rate — that is, deaths divided by the total population at risk of death. The death rate remains significantly higher for members of the military in combat zones.

There are currently an estimated 50.8 million students enrolled in K-12 classes. That’s vastly larger than the combination of personnel serving in the two military operations cited above, which is less than 20,000 people, according to publicly disclosed data.

The Post article that Graham linked to made this point. "The figures for 2018 do not suggest schools are more dangerous than combat zones," the article said. "So far in 2018, a member of the military has been about 40 times as likely to be killed as someone is to die in a school shooting."

I agree with JD that hyperbole detracts from the crucial issue: the NRA and its members believe "freedom" requires making deadly weapons available to anyone who wants them, and our political system allows them to purchase a government that supports that concept.

We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

As is very evident, I am very very strongly in favour of eradicating the risk of these shootings as far as possible by removing access to weapons.

So let's assume that control of guns actually happens. What does an angry and crazy teen then do to cause maximum harm?

Here in the UK the terrorists discovered trucks.........mowing down 50 kids as they leave a US school can't be that hard.

Then there are chemicals, explosives and acids.

IN the UK there is talk of banning acids from general sale after a spate of attacks. Imagine some deranged teen armed with a large drone and a gallon or two of neat acid.

So, once again we are really talking about prevention strategies.

It's great to clamp down on sale of weapons and materials which may be used as weapons, but there also needs to be very proactive work to identify kids at risk of becoming deranged mass killers. I'm no expert, but surely there must be some patterns...?

It's great to clamp down on sale of weapons and materials which may be used as weapons, but there also needs to be very proactive work to identify kids at risk of becoming deranged mass killers. I'm no expert, but surely there must be some patterns...?

Of course. Just hang out with some kids in the US, especially isolated ones, and you can see it... it's not complicated. The young men you see strung out on opiates, following ISIS online, committing school shootings, or turning the rage inward and committing suicide are all of a piece. There is deep despair here, there are many layers to it. The evangelicals and whatnot that lament the death of the nuclear family are wrong on many. many levels, but they are right about the simple fact that many American kids live an exceptionally isolated, screwed up social existence, and that we are paying the price for it. The reluctance of many liberals here to look at the deeper social problems that may be effecting the spate of mass gun violence here (nearly impossible to do if you work in social work or counseling in any capacity btw) speaks volumes to me about their demographically -derived ignorance. The idea that the behavior will cease once the weapons are less available is deeply misguided, and shows how ignorant some people are of how parts of the country live.Though certainly the reduced harm from reduced access to seriously deadly weapons can be argued on it's own merit.

I am not convinced there is a particular "type" that becomes a mass shooter, nor I am convinced that they are all somehow permanently "deranged" or fated to act out in this way. The "signs" that people see after the fact could be there with nearly any young man, which is exactly why no one can pick up on them adequately beforehand. The commonalities are young, male, despair, and rage. We could spend forever talking about why, but not having any hope of a decent future, no civic or community culture whatsoever are good starting places. I also have to say that the current social situation has created something of a crisis of masculinity for younger men, media tend to paint them as hopeless and animalistic (especially the poor ones, poor whites having a real moment under the spotlight since Trump, poor black men having always been a media scapegoat). I cannot even imagine trying to date, learn social skills, or come of age in today's screwy school environments. The male familial role is in a real transition here and I think that being a young man in this particular time is very confusing. That's not some conservative gripe about "PC culture" btw, just an observation of some of the ridiculous stuff that teenagers face here in schools and in their social lives these days. The pressures are enormous, and the future looks bleak enough that the light at the end of tunnel is hard to see.

Also worth mentioning: The largest percentage of guns deaths here are suicides, something like 60% last time I checked, mostly men I believe, as women tend to use other methods.

As far as gun control, there is simply no way that America will ever have the kind of gun control that exists in the UK, in my opinion. Though I do think we can hope that the future will at least place some restrictions on ownership of things like AR 15s, and perhaps one day have fewer people building insane arsenals. The trouble is that if this country enacts a "war of guns" of any kind, it will predictably become a war on poor people. Perhaps I am wrong and someone will craft fantastic legislation that actually addresses these issues, but I am not holding my breath.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

Very sad. In the days when guns were around more in the UK, it was also more common. I wonder how many were (and are) linked to PTSD in ex-military men.

In the case of the teens and the mass shootings, there are so many factors at play. There have always been pressures on teenagers and these have varied in type with each generation - being bullied on social media now, or spending your youth cowering in a bomb shelter in the garden i the 1940's. Poverty has been around for generations also. Were all the shooters poor or just social 'outsiders' with a grudge or just mentally predisposed to flip? Perhaps there is also a large element of 'copycat' thinking. We know for sure that part social media plays in their lives and just how far things can go..and how fast, just in the online exchanges.

In the UK almost all the stabbings and shootings are black on black teen gang related, but it is spreading to other groups who seem to be driven by fear, so will carry a knife for defence........and so it escalates. I observe two major factors at play which are totally modern - rap music (yes, the 'gangsta' mentality is present in most cases) and the social media which they use to taunt each other and spread the culture. One of the latest murders was a girl killed in a drive-by shooting in revenge for just that. The fantasy and reality seem all mixed up in their minds. Maybe that's true of the US mass shooters too.

[quote="Johnny Dangerous" The reluctance of many liberals here to look at the deefper social problems that may be effecting the spate of mass gun violence here (nearly impossible to do if you work in social work or counseling in any capacity btw) speaks volumes to me about their demographically -derived ignorance.
[/quote]

[quote="Johnny Dangerous" The reluctance of many liberals here to look at the deefper social problems that may be effecting the spate of mass gun violence here (nearly impossible to do if you work in social work or counseling in any capacity btw) speaks volumes to me about their demographically -derived ignorance.

I don't really fit into any "class" that you are imagining.
[/quote]

I didn't say anything about you.

"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

...Just hang out with some kids in the US, especially isolated ones, and you can see it... it's not complicated. The young men you see strung out on opiates, following ISIS online, committing school shootings, or turning the rage inward and committing suicide are all of a piece. There is deep despair here, there are many layers to it.....

Indeed it is not complicated. Reducing the number of weapons available especially high capacity firearms will result in less deaths. Math is simple and there are examples worldwide why less guns = less deaths.

However to your actual point ( I had to soapbox for a moment) I totally agree based on my experience with today's kids and teens that despair and the sense there is little way out is quite widespread. Yup, samsara, but they often don't know what that means and the good news that there is a way out.

However, I disagree when people say today's youth are in an exceptional position. The treatment of children has been terrible throughout history, one of the consistent but little mentioned black marks in almost every era of human civilization. What is different today is that these kids in the US have widespread access to military-grade weapons and that makes the (fortunately) very few who act out with them very deadly. Kids in other western civilizations are in the same fix but because they don't have the same access don't do as much damage. The only real variable in the discussion is the sheer number of weapons in the U.S.

That being said I completely agree much, much more needs to be done to actually treat kids and teens as human beings, to listen to them and especially to tell them the truth about everything. We owe it to them because we were once them. And we can do better.

"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."– Longchenpa.

I haven't been following this thread....mainly because I'm sick of gun violence. ....so i don't know if my question has been discussed. ..but is the gun violent. ...or is the user violent....
Also...does testosterone play any part in this violent tendency. ?

The government has an arsenal of weapons that is supported by a budget that isn’t matched by the next 10 countries on earth combined. Do you really think that the little pea shooters I have in my gun safe matter a whit to the weapons of that budget? Do you really think the pea shooters of every gun owner in America are even on the radar of potential threats to that arsenal?

Show me how. Please. Because only when that arsenal of the US Government sees me and other gun owners as a threat that they need to be worried about will that Second Amendment be any protection against that same government’s tyranny...

Magicians everywhere know to keep your focus on the wrong thing, so they can pull off the “magic" where you're not looking. It’s absurd to think that the “arms” that we can afford will protect us from the tyranny of the mightiest military the world has ever known. Get over that fairy tale ASAP. Because over there, where you're not looking, are the greedy swamp rats sucking the last gasping breath from our Democracy.

It’s votes, not guns, that are the only threat to the tyranny of our government. Stop worrying about the government taking away somebody’s guns, and start worrying about the government taking away somebody’s right to vote.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.
-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia