TiVo prepping nex generation DVRs

This whole "copy" / "copy once" flag is intriguing to me as its something I have discussed many times and is currently stopping me from upgrading my TivoHD to a 4 tuner Tivo. Basically 90% of my shows are copyrighted, many of which I have either not watched yet or don't want to lose. And since I can't transfer them to a new one that i buy, I have basically not spent the money on a new one. If they can do what has been described in some of the previous post in this thread, I would upgrade - no doubt. I have compared it to buying apps on your cell phone. You spent a lot of money and time building up your library of apps and if you would not be allowed to transfer them to a new one, you probably would not upgrade too often. But luckily that industry has no problem with you transferring to newly purchased phones or tablets.

If they ever add that feature It's unlikely to make it's way back to the S3 units. The S3 units are unlikely to ever see another update with actual features. (there is a minor update rolling out now to fix the TTG cookie issue)

Morac is right. "Copy once" means that the original recording is the "copy" and it already can't be copied again. The loophole is that it's not being copied it's being moved. So you're not technically creating another copy, you're simply moving the copy you already have. This is sort of a gray area so while it can technically be done now, CableLabs could choose to clarify the rules and shut this feature down.

Streaming outside the home is another gray area that we may see accepted or shut down, we'll have to wait and see how they respond if the feature is implemented.

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I don't think it is gray at all. The first recording is the first copy, if there is no restriction on streaming, then you can stream. These aren't loop holes or gray areas, it's like any other legal issue and up to a little interpretation, but most of it is a result of negotiations. If the content holders don't like what is being done with their content, they'll make it be known and follow up legally, if required.

The FCC's part is simply stepping in when a law, that they are in the position to enforce, is in question. They give each side the opportunity to submit comments and then they release an order. The Plug And Play order was the order where restrictions were placed on how these flags can be used, see page 30.

By "gray area" I meant there is no clear cut rule defining these specific usage scenarios. Streaming seems to have been accepted by the industry, but moving recordings to another device is still something new, so it's not clear yet how they're going to react to that one.

Yes, streaming rights are in a gray area. Basically TiVo pushes the limits, TiVoToGo wasn't exactly popular with the content co's when it came out either. I meant the copying rules weren't gray. I've always been a proponent of updating the definitions to reflect the current ecosystems and other DRM systems. So if I record a copy of a show with my TiVo, it should have the same flexibility as if I were to download it from iTunes or Google Play.

I think that's what TiVo is trying to accomplish. At least as best they can while conforming to the current rules. If they add a "move" feature then I think they will have done everything possible within the current rules. If they want a true iTunes type DRM scheme then the rule would need to be changed, and I just don't see that happening.

"Copy Once" does allow you to move a recording from one device to another provided it does not exist on both devices simultaneously.

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Though I'm obviously a huge TiVo fan, I'd be wary of being one of the early adopters of this.

I've definitely been bitten by my Toshiba XS32 corrupting a DVD-RAM *while* it moved over a copy once program. So along with losing everything already on the DVD-RAM, I lost the program I was copying, because it didn't do a verification before the delete of the original...

and with the weird bugs I run into with the existing Tivo iPad app (jumps back to the beginning/last save point of the show you're watching when a download finishes), I'm paranoid that losing the WiFi connection at *just* the right point would cause you to lose the program entirely...

We've drifted a long way from discussing the actual next-gen product. Nonetheless... a cloud solution is a no-go for many of us. It's one thing to access Netflix, it's another to actually have your DVR data in the cloud. Not only does this dramatically add to your bandwidth usage, you lose the instantaneous response of a local DVR. I have -zero- interest in cloud storage for my day-to-day DVR usage.

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Not to mention that Comcast is expanding their trial of the new 300GB data cap, so that alone would mean Tivo cloud is not an option for me if that cap gets reinstated.

This is a much bigger issue of course, but Tivo would have to take it into account when the caps come back (and they will).

The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.

In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.

The one thing I can see Cloud storage being good for is outside your home streaming to tablets/phones. The uploads would be the compressed like what comes out of the "Stream" now and then would be accessible for streaming anywhere.

In any event cloud storage is not possible for me as my DSL upload speeds (.4 Mb/sec on a good day) would make it unusable.

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IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.

Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?

Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.

Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.

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thats illegal. you cant record anything once and redistribute multiple times to multiple people.

IMHO if any Cloud recording takes place by any big service provider (TiVo included) it would by program not directly from your home uploaded to the Cloud, so download speed would be the only problem, this would be like IPTV.

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If it were allowed that would be fine for cable channels but I find it unlikely that anyone but a cable/satellite company is going to have access to all the local channels in the country and your local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS etc. channel will fight to death any effort to record from a national feed for prime time shows.

Wrong. CableVision won this battle in court. Google "CableVision DVR".

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no, you're wrong. you said tivo should record "once" and stream it anywhere. Cablevision doesnt do that. CV records only one copy to the user that requested it. if you and i want to record Friends at 7 pm today, CV records it twice. They dont record it one time and send it to both of us, thats is illegal. Thats how they won the court battle because they are not redistributing, they are simply recording for the user that requested it, go back and read it.

Whose to say that this cloud storage feature (assuming it exists) isn't more like what CableVision on Long Island was talking about? Or something like what Dish does?

Tivo records everything once. In the cloud, on their servers. Then, if you want to watch it from anywhere outside your home, they can see if it happens to also be on one of your Tivos. If it is, you can stream their copy to where ever you are. No "upload" capacity was used by you, since you didn't send your copy to the cloud...Tivo already had it.

no, your wrong. you said tivo should record "once" and stream it anywhere. Cablevision doesnt do that. CV records only one copy to the user that requested it. if you and i want to record Friends at 7 pm today, CV records it twice. They dont record it one time and send it to both of us, thats is illegal. Thats how they won the court battle because they are not redistributing, they are simply recording for the user that requested it, go back and read it.

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Yes, I understand the difference now. However, I don't think it's a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that CableVision could (if they aren't already) argue that they have algorithms which very carefully remove duplicate bits of data across their farm of hard drives. Why bother keeping the identical bits multiple times? Then, of course, it's just a matter of a database to keep track of who told them to record it. They could prove that they aren't infringing if there happens to be one program which no one requested, and, in fact, it wasn't available on their system.

Anyway, this point is moot. All I was saying was that TiVo's "cloud" storage might not involve *any* of your "upstream" bandwidth. They can just add it to the cloud on your behalf when you set up your recording.

By the way...How is Dish getting away with this then? (nevermind, I see that "PrimeTime Anytime" actually gets stored on your own local hard drive. I thought it was "in the cloud." )