the original post says luck is important, and there is another post saying it affects what kind of loot you get when going into a cave, but does anyone know if luck (as far as cave/dungeon booty) is only important when you are entering the dungeon?

It seems everything has spawned after you first enter the dungeon, even the treasure chests.

I haven't been able to find an accurate answer so I am going to try and get a full set of +10 Luck enchanted armor and a fortify luck spell (think 65 is all I can get since my restoration isn't over 50 yet) and then save before entering a dungeon... go in it once wearing all my luck stuff/spells then do it all over again w/o them and compare the booty found.

Unless someone can save me the time and tell me what happens...

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Here is a concrete example of why luck is useful, courtesy (of course) of Ammant:

Practically every mathematical forumula in the game takes your Luck level into account.

Here's a concrete example.

All spells have a base magicka amount required to cast them. The amount you see on your menu is the amount required at your current skill level (and luck level) at that point.

The maximum magicka casting cost you see for a spell will be 140% of the base amount at low skill/luck levels, and the minimum casting cost will be 20% of the base amount (at high skill/luck levels).

A Summon Frost Atronach spell has a base magicka amount of 360 to cast. A Conjuration skill of 5 and Luck level at 50 would show the spell requiring 504 magicka to cast. A Conjuration skill of 100 and Luck at 50 would show the spell requiring 72 magicka to cast (the lowest possible casting amount).

However with a Luck attribute of 75 you can reach the lowest casting cost for that spell with a Conjuration skill of 90 instead of 100, and with a Luck attribute of 100 the lowest casting cost can be reached at 80 Conjuration skill.

Also, I would like to second what mas has said about the purpose of this thread. My original post was an attempt to think through ways in which to maximize every character attribute. I recognize that this approach isn't the best for everyone, and would never suggest it as the "only" approach.

The possible options for characters are nearly limitless, and I really am only concerned that no one gimp themselves by making certain bad choices.

For example, it makes perfect sense to me that a "pure mage" character might not care about personality or agility, and could take two Int-based skills as majors, and two Will-based skills as well. Something like: Mysticism, Conjuration, Destruction, Restoration, Block, Blades, Acrobatics. The only thing I would definitely not recommend would be taking all three Int or Will-based skills as majors.

Similarly, a "pure fighter" character might not care about Intelligence or Willpower (although Willpower does govern resistance to magicka, so even a fighter should consider it important), and might choose: Blades, Blunts, Block, Armorer, Marksman, Acrobatics, and Merchantile. But I certainly wouldn't take hand-to-hand or Heavy Armor under this build, or you'd be guaranteeing your character a less than maximum attribute bonus at level up.

Frankly, you might even be better off with one of these "pure" concepts since you'd get more replay value out of the game, not having fully explored all of the skills/attributes the first time around. But I figured a guide describing the best way to level everything would have application for everyone, no matter what their chosen specialty.

I havn't read through all of these posts, but I read some of the first page... and on the luck thing I know on Morrowind, the way you can cheat to raise stats and all you'd have to do is raise luck and you could kill almost anything w/o even having combat skills, but I donno if it's the same on here or not.

I don't think this has been mentioned specifically, but in the interest of amail making a more comprehensive FAQ and all (lol), Glubags helped confirm something that we were wondering about regarding HP development -

While it's true that HP adjustment when you level is equal to 1/10 your character's Endurance, there is also a base HP of double your Endurance throughout the game, meaning that the actual jump in HP early on can be equal to 15, 16, 17 points or so before you reach an Endurance of 100. At that point, you'll see a steady 10 HP increase each time your character levels.

I recently purchased the game and realized very quickly that as a mage, leveling is not necessarily a good thing in contrast with most other games I have played with exception to Sigil stones and certain quest restrictions. (I am sure a few others things as well)

----Agree
I absolutely agree that endurance and luck attributes will greatly improve gameplay and attribute maximization.

----Disagree or Other Possibilities
A few notes where I might disagree with amailhot only from a mages perspective:

Major Skill Selection:

-Strength- I agree with Blade as a selection here unless you are a blunt weapon user. Either one of the 3 choices are very easy to contol.

-Intelligence- I prefer Alchemy as the major as it is totally controllable. Comps are cheap and easy to find/buy. As a mage, I absolutely use the heck out of conjuration and it would not be a wise choice. Mysticism levels way too fast and if you do not have a soultrap weapon/item then you would level too qyickly trying to recharge items. Minor Dispel (Mysticism) will level you super fast at any time, so it is great as a minor.

-Willpower- Alteration is the best choice here as you would realistically use it only for shield spells and waterbreathing. Very controllable, but very fast to level.

-Agility- I agree with Marksman as security you would use too much and sneak is very easy to level up 10x. Simply go into sneak mode and walk near someone/something just out of sight range. I tested this out in multiple places and you rarely sneak as a mage, but a very easy 10 pts to rack up.

-Speed- Acrobatics all the way.

-Endurance- I agree with Heavy Armor as the major. You can always remove the armor and slip on a robe if you needed to control that. Block is rarely used as a mage, but I can take a shield into the sewers, find a lonely rat, back into a corner and hold block. I leveled up to 50 block in nothing flat, only healing every few minutes (or during commercials) . Boring, but an interesting test.

Anywho, good topic. I was just in the process of planning my next character to try out when I ran across this thread.

Good thread amail, it was about time someone created a thread explaining the use of controlled leveling. I've tried to explain it to a few people but it wasn't quite as effective as your huge-ass topic ()

One question though, does raising your major skills effect your skill bonus as well? The way I thought it went was every two minor skill levels gained contributed to one attribute point bonus (5 point max). I also thought that raising your major skill by one level would add one bonus point?

Is this correct? If so, I'll continue on and explain a possible problem with your thinking.

I think the one thing not clicking for people is the leveling portion. I think it would be great if one of you had 3 minutes to kind ot step by step the first 5 levels of a character showing the Stength(+5)/Endurance(+5)/Luck(+1)--level raising portion.

I think then it would make more sense to people.

Then they would see a level 5 character with the endurance of a normal 15-17+

^ Nope, it makes no difference whether you're focusing on Major or Minor Skills, as far as Attribute-farming goes.

It could be 10 Minor Skill points, or five Minor and five Major, for skills governed by a particular Attribute.

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If that's the case, then I see a small glitch in this tactic (or maybe I didn't completely understand the original post). amail says to level any combination of skills (that govern the same attribute) to a total of 10. Then do that for two other attributes blah blah blah. Then, once you've got your 5 point attribute bonus set up, level up your major skills to gain that level and actually recieve the point bonuses.

If I read that correctly, that means you're wasting skill levels. Think about it--if you level up any combination of minor skills to a total of 10, you've got your attribute bonus. Then, when you level up your major skills, you're just wasting those levels when you could be also be using those to get the attribute bonus (but that you've already got because of you leveled your minor skills). Shouldn't you use a combination of major and minor skills to gain the attribute point bonus?

I don't know. It's late, I'm tired, and it's very confusing. If you understood my post (I don't blame you if you don't), does that make sense? Is that how it should be done?

I understand what you're saying, but I don't really see it as a 'waste.'

You could do something like this (I'll just use two Attributes for the sake of simplicity) -

Let's say Blade and Block are your Major Skill selections for Strength and Endurance, respectively.

If you wanted a +5 for each Attribute, without wasting time on superfluous development, you could develop five points of Hand to Hand and Heavy Armor (minor skills governed by Str and End), and then invest five points each in Blade and Block. You'd get the level up, AND the +5 for the two separate attributes.

I think the concern is largely a non-issue (the only exception being someone interested in leveling their character as quickly as possible). There are more than enough skill points available that gaining some extra points here and there won't limit you from being able to reach the max value of 100 for an attribute. For the most part, I generally try for a +5 increase in every skill set for the attributes I'm developing, since I tend to build a character with one Major Skill governed by each of the seven attributes.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't really see it as a 'waste.'

You could do something like this (I'll just use two Attributes for the sake of simplicity) -

Let's say Blade and Block are your Major Skill selections for Strength and Endurance, respectively.

If you wanted a +5 for each Attribute, without wasting time on superfluous development, you could develop five points of Hand to Hand and Heavy Armor (minor skills governed by Str and End), and then invest five points each in Blade and Block. You'd get the level up, AND the +5 for the two separate attributes.

I think the concern is largely a non-issue (the only exception being someone interested in leveling their character as quickly as possible). There are more than enough skill points available that gaining some extra points here and there won't limit you from being able to reach the max value of 100 for an attribute. For the most part, I generally try for a +5 increase in every skill set for the attributes I'm developing, since I tend to build a character with one Major Skill governed by each of the seven attributes.

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That's what I was trying to say, thanks. Plus then you don't have to worry about getting the third attribute point bonus because you can level luck early on (which can't get a bonus).

This thread rocks! My little Wood Elf is a force to be reckoned with and he is only level 13. Anyone who is serious about completely maxing out their character needs to read this thread and stick by it.

I picked The Mage for my sign, because I want to eventually be an Archer/Mage so having more magika is important. My Starting Attributes were Luck and Endurance. My major skills are Blade, Heavy Armor, Illusion, Mysticism, Marksman, Acrobatics, and Destruction. So far I am level 13 and I maxed out endurance by level 12. I have 40 in Personality (thats last on my list), 63 Luck, 100 Endurance and 55 in everything else. My character is teh PwnZ0rZ!!

I think the key to making a strong character is to level up your minor skills as much as possible for each level. I found the biggest help is to level up a combat skill as a minor. The enemies level with you but if you level your minor in blade say you have an edge. That's what I did with my agent. I leveled blade as a minor skill. If monsters break through my defenses and get to close I can take them out. Once you get an invisibility spell your character can win in any situation anyway.

Great post. I did something similar in my second character. I tried to plan out how I leveled and did fairly good with it. With my first character I was getting +2's and +3's leveling up. My second character I was getting at least one +5, sometimes two, along with +4's and +3's at worst. At level 37 my first character is still the better pure fighter, but my second character, at level 25, is not that far behind, and is also a better thief/wizard.

I've been toying with buying this on the PS3 just for larks. If I do I'll probably follow this idea much closer.

[quote=masmith3200]Bump to prevent lock/auto-deletion.[/quote]This get's my vote for best use of bumpage, 2007!

If you're looking for some tips on skill development for leveling, check my Skills FAQ. </whoring>

Although I need to update at least one thing - if you want to level Acrobatics quickly, look for a bar/tavern with tables and a low ceiling. Jump on top of the table, and spam the jump button - you won't be able to jump as high, so the duration of the jump is minimal. It makes leveling Acro MUCH faster and easier.

It would seem I have a highly unbalanced character, I was slaughtered by a west weald bear at level 19 today, truthfully I had been trying to level up my skills as quicdkly as possible to get to see all the new types of leveled loot and items that became available to me, however actually *surviving* has been tough, and I've had to compensate by either summoning something, or going invisisble.

Try looking for other ways to strengthen your character. You can make/use potions, enchant weapons/armor, find some unique items like Daedric Artifacts...or just drop the difficulty a bit using the manual slider.

"Although I need to update at least one thing - if you want to level Acrobatics quickly, look for a bar/tavern with tables and a low ceiling. Jump on top of the table, and spam the jump button - you won't be able to jump as high, so the duration of the jump is minimal. It makes leveling Acro MUCH faster and easier."

Hmmm. I was under the impression that longer jumps actually level Acrobatics faster? I read somewhere that the best way to level it is to find a stairway thats just high enough so that it hurts you a little bit when you land, then run up and jump down it over and over. I've been doing that at the Frostcragg Spire stairs when I need to level Acro and it seems to work a LOT faster than just jumping up and down over and over. I will test this method though and see which one works better.

In my experience, jumping on a table top (so that you hit the ceiling almost immediately) was much faster. Even if you get two or three times as much experience for that longer jump in a staircase, you can still jump six, seven, eight, times in the span of time it'd take to complete one jump and then run back to the top of the stairs.

But if you find that it is faster, please let me know. I'll edit the FAQ accordingly, and offer credit where it's due.

"In my experience, jumping on a table top (so that you hit the ceiling almost immediately) was much faster. Even if you get two or three times as much experience for that longer jump in a staircase, you can still jump six, seven, eight, times in the span of time it'd take to complete one jump and then run back to the top of the stairs.

But if you find that it is faster, please let me know. I'll edit the FAQ accordingly, and offer credit where it's due."

Next time I get a chance, I will actually test it with a stopwatch... Cause I'm a little crazy like that. I might take me a few days but I'll post back here with my results. I've never actually tried the table-top method you described so I'd like to see for myself.

Strange game where you pick starting skills that you think you won't use much (other than strength?) which will therefore help you NOT level up - which is a good thing. Umm yeah. I kind of understand the principle (because your level affects the level of the enemies you will face) but won't you just be bad at things you want to be good at? Or is the idea that this will only affect you when you start playing and in the end these will all max out anyway? Sorry for the questions but I'm trying to understand all this BEFORE I make my first character.

Strange game where you pick starting skills that you think you won't use much (other than strength?) which will therefore help you NOT level up - which is a good thing. Umm yeah. I kind of understand the principle (because your level affects the level of the enemies you will face) but won't you just be bad at things you want to be good at? Or is the idea that this will only affect you when you start playing and in the end these will all max out anyway? Sorry for the questions but I'm trying to understand all this BEFORE I make my first character.

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Read this, then read this and when you're done with those, read the original post in this thread again and I bet it will make more sense to you. If it doesn't, then read this and this.

Strange game where you pick starting skills that you think you won't use much (other than strength?) which will therefore help you NOT level up - which is a good thing. Umm yeah. I kind of understand the principle (because your level affects the level of the enemies you will face) but won't you just be bad at things you want to be good at? Or is the idea that this will only affect you when you start playing and in the end these will all max out anyway? Sorry for the questions but I'm trying to understand all this BEFORE I make my first character."

The idea is to pick skills that are easily "controlled" so that you dont level up until your ready. In this game, its not your level that makes you more powerful, its your skills and attributes.

You've got the part right about in the end everything will be maxed out. However I think your thinking is a little off.

You wont be avoiding the skills that you want to use. You will just be using them as minor skills mostly. There is not difference in the power of a Major Skill at level 100 or a Minor Skill at level 100. The only difference is, your minor skills take longer to level up.

I actually find this form of leveling quite fun now that I have put the time into it.

To look at my Major Skills, you would think my character is some weird type of messed up Warrior.

However, I play my character more like an Archer/Mage/Assassin. I wear Light Armor. Bows & Arrows are my main weapon, dagger is secondary. And I use a LOT of Magic. When I am trying not to level up Blade or Marksman I just use Blunt Weapons, when I'm ready to level, I start using Bows and Knives again. I used Heavy Armor for the first 12 levels to max endurance, now I wear Light Armor all the time and both Armor skills are almost maxed.

I tend to ramble, but the basic idea is that you pick major Skills that you know you will not HAVE to use. Then try not to train up your major skills until your ready.

So Endurance and Luck really are the best for any character to start with? I mean, won't I end up with a higher, lets say STR if I pick that first? and doesn't everything max out at a certain amount anyway? so what's it matter what you do first? as you can see im a bit confused

So Endurance and Luck really are the best for any character to start with? I mean, won't I end up with a higher, lets say STR if I pick that first? and doesn't everything max out at a certain amount anyway? so what's it matter what you do first? as you can see im a bit confused

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The higher your Endurance is when you level up, the more your health will increase. Since you get a bonus for making it a primary attribute, it means you'll have more health.

The bonus to Luck basically just makes it far easier to max. It doesn't make a massive difference, but it's important nonetheless.

Ohhh yeah I forgot I was supposed to test how to lvl up Acrobatics the most efficient way!! Oops.

Although, I did a quick test not using a stop watch. It seems to me that it is a LOT faster to do the stairway method rather than jumping against a low ceiling. I tried both, and I jumped up and down against the low ceiling for a good 5 minutes and barely moved my acrobatics skill. Then I went back to my old stairway method and leveled it up 3 times in about 5 minutes.

This is great, I read most of it and it makes me want to start over
Question is.

To level all your skills certian abilities are governed by certian skills
What skills give you +5's in every stat if you could list them

IE : Blade gives you +5 in STR or MYST gives you +5 in INT

Another thign that I dont get is.
When your leveling you want to level skills so that you get the +5's and you need to get 3 +5's each level so that you can get to 100.
Do you go to trainers and buy your levels?
And WHAT level does the skill have to be at to GET the plus 5 in that skill?

you need 10 skill increases per level to get a +5. so basicly if you want to get a +5 in willpower you could get 10 levels in destruction, or you could get 4 levels in destruction and 2 levels in resturation and 4 levels in alteration, because they are all governed by willpower.

I did mostly everything you said, I started a new guy and I started the focus on strength and endurance. I leveled heavy armor 10 levels and blade 10 levels. I then leveled up and went to sleep, the only bonuses that were availible were inteligence +5, and speed, agility, and endurance +2.
(before the end of the sewers i got my guy to 100 distruction, is that effecting this?) thanks

Serphh what most likely happened was you didn't gain as many levels in those skills as you thought you had. If you were gaining the levels in the sewers you lose some levels after making it a primary skill or in some other way boosting the skill.

In other words if blade starts at level 5 and you gain 10 levels, but then you make blade a primary skill it becomes 25 (maybe 30 if you choose combat) starting and it readjusts the amount of experience you gained previously so that those 10 levels will only equal three or four levels. I know this seems confusing, and my writing is about as clear as mud right now... sorry.

Acrobatics--It is my experience as I posted earlier in the topic that the staircase method works significantly faster, but I'm glad that you also tested it, and have reaffirmed my findings. Thanks.

That wasn't luck that caused the monsters to respawn. This has happened to me with base luck before. The closest I can figure it is that all the caves respawn on a timer, like every 100 game hours the cave refills, now if you happen to be inside the cave when this respawn happens it waits to refill the cave until you leave, but once you reenter to reclaim all that gear you had to leave lying around you are faced with a cave full of baddies all over again.

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Forgive me if I've missed it, but how do you raise luck? My luck has been at 65 since level 1 and I'm level 22 now. How do I raise it?

That wasn't luck that caused the monsters to respawn. This has happened to me with base luck before. The closest I can figure it is that all the caves respawn on a timer, like every 100 game hours the cave refills, now if you happen to be inside the cave when this respawn happens it waits to refill the cave until you leave, but once you reenter to reclaim all that gear you had to leave lying around you are faced with a cave full of baddies all over again.

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Forgive me if I've missed it, but how do you raise luck? My luck has been at 65 since level 1 and I'm level 22 now. How do I raise it?

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Each time you level up you can put 1 point in Luck. You can not get +5 modifiers(or any modifier for that matter) for Luck, it's a straight 1 point per level up.

Ok, so the point of this is to get the +5 modifiers right? And in the original post he said you can do a mix of major/minor skills under the same attribute to get +5. Does it matter how many levels on each one you do? Like if you level up 8 times on one and then 1 time on the other two?