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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

"I find RPTs have a certain "aura" or glow when working on a piano. They also emit a kind of musky scent, a rosewood dust/oil polish/CLP thing that drives the fairer sex mad. These effects are limited to RPTs, however. Associates have a smokey pall about them and a rusty pin/mouse turd/WD40 reek. Something in the test clears it right up." Sam Casey

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Yea, I noticed that right away when I passed the test years ago. 'Had to carry a stick to beat off the fairer sex. Unfortunately, the years seem to have diminished the effect. Maybe I need to pass another test ...

Lawrie, I understand. I had already sent out a request to my home office the day I said I would. I don't expect any type of reply for at least a week as this next week is their convention and nobody will probably be home to answer it. But, one never knows, we'll see.

I'll see what they have to say and will probably let you know anyway in case others that are reading this are interested in starting their own chapter elsewhere.

The drive from Niagara to Toronto is a bit shorter thsn from London. And I think there are a couple of you on the route..[Emmery & Thomso...sort of a car pool shuttle off to a PTG meeting...not a bad idea.

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Richard, the"Piano Guy"Piano Moving Tuning & Repair From London ON to Fort Erie ON

I read many (but not all) of the posts in this thread and I feel I MUST chime in, at least a little here.

I am a full-time Tuner/Tech and have been for over 30 years. It has been my experience that DIY folks won't buy your services anyway; they'll just wreck the piano. But if they are offered decent help, they WILL hire you and me to do the things that they discover they cannot do themselves.

I would guess that 8 out of 10 DIY folks who take their pianos apart end up calling one of US to fix their errors, thus placing more money in OUR pockets!

Honestly, I don't follow up after the DIYer's any longer. I used to but, I found that things were so cobbled up when they got done most of the time that it took far more time than I could even begin to guess to correct it. I would first have to figure out what in the heck they did to mess it up so badly, reverse that, if possible and then move forward from there. Since then, I figure, to heck with it. It's just not worth the time and effort to try and fix it. At least, not for me.

Eddie, there may not be anything gained for the person who offered the advise, but, there is nothing lost either. In this case, sooner rather than later the person who sought the advise will realize that, indeed, it is far beyond a layman’s ability and because of that will come back to commission the work. There is far less likelihood for this happening to a tradesman who snobs off enquirers. That is the point I am making.

Yes, over the years I have made many and various rebuilds. Currently I have four grand and seven upright pianos on the factory floor to be restored with various degrees of rebuilds for each of them. The total rebuilt of a Bechstein grand is just to be wrapped up by the end of this month.

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Consistency is the essence of good tradesmanship

You can spend a lot of valuable time responding to, and instructing a layman on how to perform a task properly. There is no guarantee at any time they will return to contract the work to you, after they have discovered the job is beyond their scope of understanding. So there can be a considerable amount to lose.

mr G,one thing l learnt many years ago is the worst type of repair you can undertake is the one that involves going over someone elses "bad work",be that by an ameteur or a poor tech.if you read my previous comments you would know l will freely disspence genuine advice even if that involves telling someone they are whey out of there depth ,so leave well alone.last week a violin teacher rang me to say the sustain pedal on an upright in a school was not working.he had "had a look inside"but didnt know what the problem was,firstly the idiot had forced the bottom door back in the wrong position meaning l could not remove it without causing damage,he had then decided to try and remove the action but couldnt get it back in!..l didnt tell him how he should try and do this in the future..or explain to him that there are as many different types of pedal mechanisms as there are individual makes of piano...no, l did the right thing by telling him not to **** about with things he didnt understand and a large bill to disscourage him from further experimentation.

As a professional with proper training, we are providing service to the piano. A service that we should understand. If we want to understand it, we will work to understand it.

As people that are only DIYer's and nothing more with no intention of learning more, they are servicing themselves and their own playful pleasures and only themselves with only their self service in mind. They are not servicing a piano because they don't know how. They have no cares regarding whoever has to follow up after them later on.

Yesterday for example, I tuned a Steinway B. I don't know who had been tuning this piano prior but there was no rhyme or reason to any part of the tuning anywhere on the piano. The last full half of the treble was anywhere from 1/4 tone sharp to 1/2 tone flat in the last octave. Same with the bass. There was nothing wrong with this piano other than it was obvious that whoever had tuned it had no idea what they were doing. Yet, they continued on as if they did.

Now, this does a couple of things for sure.

1. It makes it extremely difficult if any of you have ever noticed, following up after a tuner, who's tuning is very unstable, to make your own tuning stable.

2. When it is so badly out of tune, it is almost guaranteed not to stay for long..

3. When a "flake" services a piano this expensive, or any other piano for that matters, they very rarely, do anything at all mechanically either.

This means we as the "REAL" professionals, have tons more things to try and explain to the person in charge such as, your pedals have no felt or anything else under them to prevent them from being pushed down further than they should they go. "Ohhh, why would that be??" Is usually, their first question. Because....apparently, some idiot removed it????

Next we explain why the touch is "funny." Heavy, light, heavy, light.. Uneven tone and touch, other pedal problems... Regulation issues... "What's that and why didn't the last guy explain these things to me? Sounds odd to me that all of these things need doing all at once now that you're the new tuner."

It's almost as if they are accusing US of telling them something that "just shouldn't be" when in fact, had they had someone qualified service this thing to begin with, it would not NOW, be in the kind of shape this piano was in and WE wouldn't have to waste twice as much of our valuable time trying to explain it to them.

That is the sort of CRAP that WE are sick to death of and yet, so many here think it's wonderful to help the DIYER's...

IF, these DIYER"S are genuinely interested in getting into the piano business eventually, full time, fine, they will attend PTG meetings etc. That's different.

But, if their only interest is to tune for "friends and family and for themselves?" What good and what kind of REAL service can these people do for those people that for those pianos other than to screw things up for themselves, the piano itself, the piano owner and for the next person that has to follow up after their poor workmanship probably sooner or later condemning the poor piano?

I have had that one in the schools so many times; I have ended up doing the very same thing. If the instrument is tampered with by the instructor previous to me attending, or previous to them calling for service, the bill increases in a very big way. Most times I don’t charge for the small items. If the instrument is tampered with, there is a zero tolerance for this and everything is billed for. This results in a substantial invoice.

You want to change behavior? Hit them in the pocketbook. The customer changes technicians? You did not want them as a “problem customer” anyways.

There was nothing wrong with this [insert anything you wish] other than it was obvious that whoever had [insert what someone did] it had no idea what they were doing. Yet, they continued on as if they did.[/b]

Boy. If we could get beyond this...life would be so much more pleasant!!

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PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)

The question is intended to make the discussion more introspective. In what ways do we see the service to the piano being separate from the service to the customer? I really wonder about this when it is an institutional piano. Then the customer usually is not the owner.

UT, it's both. We service the piano. We provide a service to the customer, whether owner or institution.

The rare case where the piano would take ultimate precedence would be a museum--then the needs of the piano are paramount. Otherwise, it's always a balancing act (just like tuning!!)between the needs of the piano and the needs/commitment of the customer.

That said, I get paid by people...not pianos...

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PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)

To make an addition to JDelmore’s response, we service the piano but educate the customer. Servicing the instrument serves the customer need and problem (perceived or imaginary) and educating the customer serves not only their need but our need too. Our need was stated very clearly in Jerry’s response. That is to have an instrument to work on that has not been tampered with by “some strange guy with a wrench”.

Institutional instruments are a tough call, especially school pianos, but again reporting/ educating the administration of whatever structured organization you are dealing with is best. You will see later on if this has had an effect. Once again using the pocketbook in these particular situations will get the desired result. More cost for repair is questioned down the ranks to the classroom/church/ community centre. The instructors using this equipment will have to explain the extra cost to repair. The exception is the one that JDelmore mentioned being the restoration/ repair of museum pieces.

I experience emotions whenever I service a piano because they make music. Music is an emotional experience. I am distressed when a piano has been neglected, or abused. But to be professional I must remember that it is the owner’s prerogative to do what they wish with their possessions. It is difficult for me to say to an owner that tuning at least once a year is better for the piano, but if you are happy with how it sounds, that is what matters. The only DIY work that I remember seeing is refinishing. I have seen some, but not a lot of, professional work that I would, um, just do “differently.” I really dislike explaining this a customer. I try to just point out the problem and the repair without mentioning any previous repair. I do feel an urge to punish owners for neglecting their pianos, and then feel guilty for not respecting their prerogatives.

As usual, I come in and find the question has been answered very well. Jerry, I agree I could not have stated it better.

Tooner, since you asked the question, why not give your opinion?

I am not one of these people who believes, "the customer is always right!!!" I try to be very diplomatic with people who have the opinion they are right in certain "piano" situations, but we are supposed to the be experts. I will not do something to a piano, that I know is not good for the piano, or perform some task not in keeping with professional standards. If one wants something on that order, then I dont mind at all if they look elsewhere for their piano service.

Jerry, your words about why we feel about DIY'ers the way we do is very very good. Someone mentioned in some post, in either this or another thread, that techs feel threatened by DIY'ers, and dont want the competition. Gosh what a stupid, idiotic remark, was my thought. I personally have never felt threatened in any way by a DIY'er, and certainly dont see them at any sort of competition.

From my perspective, they can do what they want to their piano. Let them tune their piano, their famly or friend's piano. I really dont care. If money, have come out of my pocket for "work" some DIY'ER did, I certainly have never missed it!!!!!!

Music is, well just writing on a page. There is only the emotional attachment that you give to it. If you choose to make music an emotional experience then this is your choice.

It is the very same with servicing equipment. If you are to be a professional, then the emotion must be removed from the work situation. It will serve no purpose to become emotionally involved with the instruments or the customers. State what you see and state it in professional terms. If you see work you do not like, then state it exactly the way you have here. “Yes the job was done but I would not have completed it in this way.” Or “this instrument has been refinished but rather badly”. Stating the truth is being a professional. I don’t see another way out. Oh sure you can tell the customer what they want to hear but who does this serve in the end??……. No one, not even yourself.

I tell all customers to tune once a year. Do they? I don’t know, and it does not matter. You cannot legislate good behavior… ……. What they do with the equipment is none of my business. I repair it, they use it up and on we all go.

“Music is, well just writing on a page. There is only the emotional attachment that you give to it. If you choose to make music an emotional experience then this is your choice.”

I believe that we have little if any immediate control over our emotions. Over time, we can become more emotional about some things and less about others. What we do have is a limited choice over our actions when we experience emotions. I believe that “Music” is anything but writing on a page. If there is no emotional response, there is no music, just sounds.

Tooner: In what ways do we see the service to the piano being separate from the service to the customer? I really wonder about this when it is an institutional piano. Then the customer usually is not the owner.[/b]

You wonder about a lot of things, don't you Tooner?

That's a pretty obvious answer isn't it? We service the piano as the piano requires or as their pocket book allows when things are needing attention..

We educate the customer to understand their pianos needs and how often these needs should be met. Client education never ends. Ever. They forget just like we do.

It is NOT you or me that makes up the recommendations of tuning twice per year or more. It is the manufacturer's of these pianos that have done this.

It becomes our duty as the working technician to explain this to everyone in the world for the rest of our lives. No matter how old that gets.

If the customer doesn't like hearing that? Or if they don't believe me? Oh well! I tell them to log onto Yamaha or, Kawai, or Steinway's web site and ask them for themselves then.

It is fact, not fiction. I don't like hearing that I have to change my oil every 3,000 miles either but, I do it nonetheless. The reason is, I've been taught what will happen if I neglect it time and again.. And who taught me this? People that realized the "real consequences of neglected products."

As for institutional pianos? Those are no different. Someone out there, namely, us, has to again, educate the public. We must especially educate those in charge of making the final decision on who will service those pianos. Sometimes, a lot of time and energy is required before we can get them to accept these "FACTS" as being facts and not fiction.

Some organizations send out bids. TO these folks, I tell them, you will get what you pay for. Whether you agree with that or not or if you don't like it doesn't matter. That's the way it is in the piano industry for the most part.

If we can't educate them enough, or, worse yet, if WE fail to even try, then they will choose to get bids and the lowest bidder will always win and 9 out of 10 times, the lowest bidder also does the worst work. Once again, who winds up fixing it? The next lowest bidder?

As far as bidding goes, I do not bid on anything. I won't waste my time on it.

This is not correct. Music is sound arranged in a proper mathematical order. If the order is not correct, then it is considered noise. Have you ever listened to a street trolley clashing against the rails? This is sound with no order. Noise. Do you get emotionally attached to this? Not many do, with the exception of maybe the mechanic that repairs the trolley cars. To him the noise is the sound of money.

Well, Tooner you can believe about people what you would like to believe. Lots of people can control their emotions and lots cannot. Making judgments based on your own experiences with emotions does not make us all like this. This type of psychoanalyzing in your second paragraph is, well, presumptuous at best.

Thanks for the responses. I am wondering how we (tuners/techs) perceive the difference. Not just what the difference is.

Dan:

I’ve heard some “Modern” music that sounded worse than a trolley car. I didn’t care for it because it didn’t communicate any emotions to me. Also, I don’t see how saying what I believe is being presumptuous.

All:

One of the reasons that I am wondering about this is because of a particular baby grand at the local High School. I got it through the Chorus Festival this past winter with a knuckle replacement, hammer filing, voicing and basic regulation. They didn’t bother to get it tuned again for the spring concerts. It should have more work done on it during the summer, particularly key rebushing. Some of the wood is exposed and is wearing. To complicate matters my daughter will be starting at the High School this fall. I am wondering how much pressure to try to put on the music department. Best that I can tell I have good relations with them. But if they don’t care enough to have the piano tuned after the spring humidity change, why should I care? The fact is I do care. It’s just a beat up 1970’s Baldwin R but still has potential. Then there is the situation of being a parent of a High School Student that is active in music. Most of the other parents donate time and materials to the various programs. I am not sure how far I should go in this direction.

Tooner wrote:I believe that we have little if any immediate control over our emotions. Over time, we can become more emotional about some things and less about others. What we do have is a limited choice over our actions when we experience emotions. I believe that “Music” is anything but writing on a page. If there is no emotional response, there is no music, just sounds.[/b]

Sorry (not really), but I too disagree with your choice of words. Not sure you truly believe this, but anyone who lacks control over their emotions and actions, is an out of control person.Modern politically correct pyschology has convinced a lot of people that we humans are mere products of our background and environment. Seems at least to me, far too many lawyers and judges have bought this crap!!!!

I would agree beautiful artistic music can cause emotions to surface. But next time you see someone weeping upon hearing a beautiful piece of music, it wont be me!!!! I might do it in the privacy of my home, but I have more control than to weep or wail in a group of peers or other people.

Music, a possible emotional experience? Yes, sometimes, but listen to me try to play the violin...errr I mean fiddle (it is really a fiddle!!!), it is an emotional disturbance!!!

As an example, you say “Sorry (not really)”. Can you immediately make yourself truly feel sorry? If you can, then you have control over your emotions. But if it is something you truly have control over, I don’t know if it is a real emotion, or something you pretend to feel.

I do agree with you that those that let emotions control their actions are out of control. It can happen to anyone, though. That is what panic is.

The sorry (not really) is an example of maybe mild consternation. I dont know maybe I'm just detacted from my emotions, hehe. Maybe a poor choice of words. I am absolutely not sorry for disagreeing with you. If I were, I would remain silent.

In certain situations I can immediately truly feel sorry; depends on the situation. I cannot speak for anyone but me, but I strongly believe control over real emotions can achieved; at times should be done. Pretend emotions, are fake. Fake emotions are insincere, to the point of dishonesty.

Believe it or not, this line of thought is still within the spectrum of professionalism and customer relations.