My opinion on name calling, hurt feelings and the like is that as long as expletives, racial slurs, or other generally unacceptable terms are not being used then posters should feel free to vent; express strong feelings; whatever. You don't like what you're reading, change the channel. Same as with radio or TV.

You are very well-spoken (at least in print ) and are clearly passionate about this subject. Being a partially reformed curmudgeon myself, I can personally understand why you wrote in the style you did, and I don't have a f%#&ing problem with it!

I do hope that you get your lunch with Tony G.

I'd bet that you'd probably end up like a couple of 3rd graders who are punching the ***t out of eachother at recess one day and then are best friends 50 years later.

Scott123, you are the Godfather of New York Pizza, the Father of the Steel Plate, and if some one with faulty info messes with you, a real son of a ....! Thank you for bringing me to the promised land of New York Pizza. My ovens are cranked, the dough is rising, and Friday night pizza making awaits! Your advice is invaluable, your generosity amazing. I understand you. Many on this forum need you! Keep up your passion! There are several big hitters on this forum. You bat clean-up for me. "The security of Society lies in custom and unconscious instinct, and the basis of the stability of Society, as a healthy organism, is the complete absence of any intelligence amongst its members." Rock our world - keep your intelligence coming!

Tom, I too, am eager to see the "exact" recipe of the Godfather! I bet it would knock my socks off. But the Godfather has taught me that the journey is just as important as the destination, and I have, with his guidance, developed a recipe that works wonders for me and my family and friends. I am glad to share it with you or anyone. It has been posted on this forum and I would be glad to post it again. I cannot guarantee everyone would like it. Tom, that is just not going to happen. We have talked about that extensively on this forum. There is no one exact pizza sauce recipe for everyone. The Godfather would never send you on a fool's errand. But he will give you the guiding principles of how to develop your own sauce. Socrates states wisdom begins in wonder. Best of luck on your journey Tom!

After reading this forum and seeing the comments stated it is clear some things need to be put into prospective. Iíve known Tony for a decade and the reason he has so many friends in the business is because heís earned each one via dedication to only being as good as the people around him. That is why he teaches so vigorously. So letís break this down.

Scott123 had a posted a disagreement with a post from someone who physically attended Tonyís Vegas tutorial and noted his recipe differences. Fine no biggie. We could talk more about that but the real start of this conflict came from this statement.

ď:shaking my head:

It's time for him to get his own Food Network show. That way he cover himself with badges and do the self-congratulation thing from now until the cows come home. He's got the IQ for it. He and Fieri can be best buds.Ē

Tony responded with an attack on your original argument and followed it up with a true defense of what he does and stands for as a professional in the community. He retorted that if this was in person Scott wouldnít be so rude. (I guarantee Tony would say everything he said online in person, i.e. the reason he didnít hide behind a fake name and wrote his full name at the bottom.) Tony Followed it up with how derogatory comments for the sake of making them are pushing real pizzeria owners from this site. I can attest to that being a fact.I want nothing to do with seek to hate.

That was the last from Tony and then there are several posts that use argumentative fallacy of defending an action indirectly without addressing anything head on and deviating to side issues. Such as this.

ďTony, you can ShamWow it up in Vegas, win tens of awards from your friends, and pat yourself on the back all you want, and, if that makes you feel good, all power to you, but none of that is going to help you understand NY culture, my culture. It's not your fault that you're not from NY As long as you disrespect my area's history by spreading misinformation, I'm going to respond in a highly critical manner.

I don't know everything there is to know about NY style pizza nor do I represent it, but I am one of about 20 million NYers, past and present, that, collectively, own the rights to it. California doesn't have the right to redefine this area's cultural treasure.Ē

Let me start by saying that on behalf of New Yorkers Past and Present, Weíre good, We donít need or want you to defend us, we and our pizza are doing just fine.

So letís stop dealing in the sandbox and deal with facts. Iíve known Tony long enough to know the misconceptions people have of him.

Misconception #1 Tony doesnít know NYTony Knows NY style, California Style, and every style. Tonyís Pizzeria Napoletana is the only place in the world (not California, Not just America, but The WORLD) where you can have an authentic Coal fired NY Style pizza, Wood fired Caputo Margherita, Detroit style pizza made in real Detroit pans, St. Louis Style Ė Not my favorite style but it is a style and Tonyís is true to the style Ė and Chicago style. Plus countless other styles. He has a massive cellar so he can house all the different pallets of flour he uses, and as I recall he has 5 different styles of ovens also. Almost no one has 3 flours, Tony is rolling on last time I checked 8. He knows all these styles by befriending the best in each field and seeking to know the ins and outs of that style with his R&D.

Misconception #2 Tony is a Celebrity Chef.Tony is a celeb because heís on TV, and that is as far as the celebrity status goes. Tony goes into his stores and doesnít stop. Heíll make every Margherita at His little Italy store in North Beach, go to Sacramento and watch Pizza Rock till they close. Entertain guests and answer questions all the way till 2 in the morning, be up and at the store by 7am to help with prep and be back at Capoís before they open in back in San Fran. Heíll make pizza all day and then use his day off to fly to LA because some TV show wants a food consult on a food show. If it gets pizza and love of it on the forefront heís there. He like myself doesnít take a vacation, as a pizza owner the time we are out of town is to compete and that is typically it.

Misconception #3 Expo is just about moneyThe notion the EXPO for Scot123 is a ďCraw in your side.Ē The feeling that Expo is for commercialism and not about the mom and pops that are the heart of the industry is the notion of a false martyr purist. Pizza Expo is where the mom and pops come to view over 50 seminars on everything from dough handling to how to deal with staff and manage a mom and pop. Itís a place people can find out about products that can make their pizzerias easier to operate and a place where companies that are pushing to make great products can finally get some attention. Small start-ups only get somewhere if people at expo notice them. Most importantly Expo is a place where pizzaioloís have competitions to show off their pizza but more importantly push themselves and their craft to new heights by competing and knowing the best most innovative people in the industry. From the Italians who fly over each year to the young 25 year old couple who are just trying get their footing, Expo helps thousands each year.If you want to talk commercialism, Tony has turned down more money than he has ever taken. Pizza Hut offered him in the high 6 figure sums to be on their team for ads and marketing. He said no when a lot of others would have said yes. And this was before his SF store, back when money wasnít flowing.

Misconception #4 Tony is a pizza tosser and should stick to thatYes Tony did create the majority of the acrobatic pizzaiolo moves that are still used by young 20 year olds in competitions today. Truth be told he hasnít done a throwing competition in about a decade. In that time he has opened multiple stores and competed primarily in baking, and hasnít done that for a few years so he could focus on helping other independents and his school. He didnít win his titles from friends who pat him on the back, he won the Caputo cup in Italy from Italian Judges who hate to give an award to any foreigner, let alone an American, but the pizza he made couldnít be denied. He is a master pizzaiolo for a reason.

Letís also address Scott and people who think like he does.

Scott wrote ďI don't tell you how to surf, farm, make movies, or anything else that California is famous for. Don't tell us what is and isn't in our pizza.Ē

In response, Tony has never surfed. San Francisco water is a Bay, not conducive for surfing.

On the topic of making movies, this jab about California reminded me of the Godfather. Francis Ford Coppallaís Classic that Iím sure Iíve seen over 100 times. Iíd be willing to bet most of the people on this forum have seen it several times as well. Scott wrote his credentials as having eaten at over 800 pizzerias. Thatís all well and good. But Iíve seen the Godfather and many thousands of movies, that doesnít equip me to direct a movie. I can say if I think it is good or not, but I certainly canít begin to needle what a director goes through to get their art to screen.

In the scene where Sonny beats Carlo in the street he phantom punches horribly and thanks to dvd its easy to see. Should be at the 1:10 mark.

Just because I can point out an imperfection doesnít make me a director or moreover an expert. If I really want to say, ďAww Coppala doesnít know crap about directing, did you see that scene with Sonny?Ē

A person who says that isnít smart. They are weak. They seek the failure of others and bringing down others who are held in high regard to justify their place in life. Rather than live and let live, they crap on what is held in High regard. In this case, that is Tony Gemignani.

Scott123 took a difference of opinion on salt and EVOO and turned it into multiple vitriolic rants against a man who has given more to this industry than anyone in the history of pizza.

The closing thought I would have to anyone who reads this is, what have you done in this life. Tony employs about 500 people currently, has helped thousands, including me, get our stores off the ground with hours of free advice that has yielded me and my 200 employees thousands for ourselves and our families. You can be in love with the mom and pop who run a single store, but we do more good for more of our own mom and more pops via dedication to craft, culture and above all else people with what we know, making pizza.

If you donít run a pizza place than this isnít something youíre going to understand.If you havenít been at your pizzeria for 48 hours straight without going home, if you havenít woke up wheezing from bakers lung, if you havenít had to not know if youíd loose your house for the craft you love, than you might love pizza but youíre not a pizza maker.

To whoever reads this, a pizza makers life is filled with struggle, coming on this site to improve our craft makes it worthwhile. Arguing people who donít remotely understand the industry and the life we lead is an argument that is fruitless and a time waste. A waste I canít afford

I wrote this because one my guys was furious that anyone would speak ill of Tony. I wrote this to put things in prospective. But really my response to anyone who thinks ill of Tony is, obviously you donít know him.

I am not seeking to troll further on this post. Iím a one and done individual. You can seek to argue this or that and keep the cycle going, but that would only reinforce my point on the subject.

This forum should be for improving pizza, and only that, anything more is just pointless.

So you joined today just to say and act exactly how you are telling others how not to act... makes a lot of sense.

Really?

It seems to me they joined to make some cogent counterpoints to personal attacks and misconceptions. Also to attest that these things keep people from enjoying this site fully or participating altogether.

How many people need say these things before others realize it matters?

It seems to me they joined to make some cogent counterpoints to personal attacks and misconceptions. Also to attest that these things keep people from enjoying this site fully or participating altogether.

How many people need say these things before others realize it matters?

Yes really, isn't that what he just did, telling people not to express themselves the way he just did.. It's the internet, people are going to say whatever they want to say. If you don't like it don't read it. People get offended so easily. Scott said, Tony said, this new person said. Who cares. Get over it. It's pizza.

BTW, I'm not defending what Scott or Tony did. All I'm saying is don't goes somewhere, tell people not to attack someone because they don't know them, then do the thing they said not to do.

I have my own feelings about Scott123ís NY style pizzas he wants everyone to try to achieve if they want. I have read almost every post here on the forum for awhile. I know Scott123 has helped many members make what they think it their best NY style pizzas and I can appreciate his passion for NY style pizzas and all the time he spends helping other members achieve what they want, whether it is in this country or other countries. I know Scott123 is very smart and has great writing skills and conveys his thoughts very well here on the forum. I also know he knows a lot about how different ovens work and what to do and what not to do in trying to get the most out of them. I have been on two pizza tours with Scott123 in NYC and he really is a nice guy and I know he is really passionate about NY style pizza of years ago.

What I donít understand though is why Scott123 gets into controversial posts with Peter Reinhart, Tony G., or other professionals like Jay Jerrier and others. It is those posts that give me pause and make me wonder. I know Scott gets upset with different information they might have posted here on the forum or elsewhere, but it seems to me that there is a better way of going about what he tries to do in spreading the word about the old NY style pizzas he loves with a passion, or there might be a better way of trying to see if others can be persuaded to change their minds. I know I asked Scott123 awhile ago here on the forum how he plans to spread the word about old NY style pizzas elsewhere other than here on the forum.

I also wonder why if Scott123 believes he can make his idea of an old school NY style pizza why he doesnít purchase a camera and post all his results with photos for any members that want to see his pizza. I know pictures canít tell everything, but it sure would be interesting to see one of Scottís NY style pizzas. I havenít seen any of his pizzas. I know where Scott made the excuses that he didnít have a camera to take those pictures, but if he truly believes he can make the great old style NY style pizzas then I think he would purchase a camera and take those photos, or use his flipshare he used to take the video at Pizza Town. I think it was Scott123 that did take a great video with the flipshare at Pizza Town. and a video of vesta_vodka at and another video of I guess was the same pizza at I also am just guessing that Scott123's screen name on YouTube is 8enter. I would think if Scott still has that flipshare he could take at least a video of one of his NY style pizzas. I also donít know a lot about flipshare, but maybe also it can capture photos from a video.

If I ever thought I had made my ideal of a really good old style NY pizza, or almost what my ideal was of an old NY style pizza I would be posting those results with the exact formulation, the sauce brand (with any additional ingredients that might be needed) the brand of mozzarella and the methods I went through about making that NY style pizza with photos for anyone that might be interested in trying it to see if they also thought it was a good NY style pizza. I know I have never made my ideal NY style pizza, because I truly donít know what the perfect NY style pizza is even after many experiments and tasting different pizzas from NYC and other places. I never lived in NYC back when there was supposed to be really good NY style pizzas, but have tasted NY style pizzas in NYC for nearly 20 years. How those old time NY style pizzas were achieved sometimes has me picking my brains to know how they made those pizzas.

What I donít understand though is why Scott123 gets into controversial posts with Peter Reinhart, Tony G., or other professionals like Jay Jerrier and others. It is those posts that give me pause and make me wonder. I know Scott gets upset with different information they might have posted here on the forum or elsewhere, but it seems to me that there is a better way of going about what he tries to do in spreading the word about the old NY style pizzas he loves with a passion, or there might be a better way of trying to see if others can be persuaded to change their minds. I know I asked Scott123 awhile ago here on the forum how he plans to spread the word about old NY style pizzas elsewhere other than here on the forum.

Norma, thanks for sharing your opinion. Can't wait to take the whole family down to Root's market to have your pizza. My children still talk about the trip and want to know when we are returning. Everyone loved your pizza! Let me take a guess at why Scott123 mixes it up with the "big boys". Scott is so passionate about his pizza, he gets uncomfortable when he thinks people use media hype and commercialization and arrogance to advance themselves in the pizza world. We are all human, and we are aware of our social rank. We prefer to be higher on the rank. For Scott123 and many others, social rank and New York pizza don't mix. New York pizza is for the man on the street with no false pretenses. That is where Scott123 and you meet. You are genuine, and so is Scott. Your pizza spot at Root's is honest and was, for my family, a real unique slice of Pennsylvania German life. You and Scott are different in that you respect social order and hierarchy, while occasionally Scott lets his pizza passion surge and smash social structure and hierarchy. Differences among us are the spice of life. I can only guess that the reason Scott123 does not post pictures of his pie is that he is such a perfectionist, he would never be happy with how the photos turn out. He obviously is a passionate perfectionist. There is mystery behind him, but then mystery is an essential component of our experience. Enough of the pop psychology - let's get back to pizza! Mark

Norma, thanks for sharing your opinion. Can't wait to take the whole family down to Root's market to have your pizza. My children still talk about the trip and want to know when we are returning. Everyone loved your pizza! Let me take a guess at why Scott123 mixes it up with the "big boys". Scott is so passionate about his pizza, he gets uncomfortable when he thinks people use media hype and commercialization and arrogance to advance themselves in the pizza world. We are all human, and we are aware of our social rank. We prefer to be higher on the rank. For Scott123 and many others, social rank and New York pizza don't mix. New York pizza is for the man on the street with no false pretenses. That is where Scott123 and you meet. You are genuine, and so is Scott. Your pizza spot at Root's is honest and was, for my family, a real unique slice of Pennsylvania German life. You and Scott are different in that you respect social order and hierarchy, while occasionally Scott lets his pizza passion surge and smash social structure and hierarchy. Differences among us are the spice of life. I can only guess that the reason Scott123 does not post pictures of his pie is that he is such a perfectionist, he would never be happy with how the photos turn out. He obviously is a passionate perfectionist. There is mystery behind him, but then mystery is an essential component of our experience. Enough of the pop psychology - let's get back to pizza! Mark

Mark,

I would like to see you and your family again.

I can understand why Scott123 doesnít want people, or the ďbig boysí to use media hype and commercialization and ignorance to advance themselves in the pizza world. I donít agree with those ideas either. I know differences among all of us members is what makes the spice of life and I do really enjoy Scott123ís passion for the style of pizza he loves so much. The only thing that bothers me is that if Scott123 is so passionate about wanting to advance his old style of NY style pizza as much as he can, which I know he does, then he should post photos whether the pizzas look perfect or not. I think there comes a time when a members should show what they can do if they want to advance their style of pizzas. I sure wouldnít want to look here on the forum and keep reading about different styles of pizza and then not see any pictures of pizzas members made.

I don't claim to know Scott personally, but I do think I get him a little. A big part of that is due to my past in a different community in the past where I dealt with issues very similar to the ones he does.

In my younger years I raised a small herd of chinchillas for show. I was a cellular and molecular biology major, and genetics was a major interest, and this was a way to play with my genetics knowledge and theories in the real world. As some of you may know, in the 40's, 50's and 60's the chinchilla industry boomed on the speculation of a lucrative fur market that never fully materialized. Back then chinchillas where viewed as a great investment and many highly educated people became involved in the industry. Entire books were written on the genetics of the domesticated chinchilla. I read them all, went to used book stores and tracked down little known publications few people alive had heard of let alone read. Through that I learned from a bygone generation, and educated generation of doctors and scientists. Problem was that bygone generation was just that, gone. As the boom waned the educated people who viewed chinchillas as a high dollar investment were replaced by farmers who viewed them as a simple livestock. Outside of the old books and publications the genetics knowledge was lost. When I entered the "scene" the big names in the industry were a major source of misinformation. It was a constant fight. For every person I educated with the proper information 10 where lost to the misinformation from a big name. At one point I ended up in an argument with the president of the national breeders organization because they were making statements that conflicted with old books that they were at the time publishing and selling. Can you imagine that, you are the president of an organization putting out a book that contains the proper information, and you are publicly refuting it with misinformation? Needless to say it was incredibly frustrating.

Scott sits in the same boat today with New York Style pizza. For every person he teaches, there are 100 being misinformed by big names. Sadly most of the big names have little to no history with New York.

"With great power comes great responsibility". I personally wish more of the big names where more responsible with their power, and applaud Scott for standing up for something he cares about. His New York edge might not always be beneficial to the conversation, but anybody who's ever met a New Yorker knows that is as New York as the pizza he is trying to defend.

Therefore, my request is to have Scott123 post his complete recipe for both his NY style pizza dough and his signature NY style sauce that he likes to use. ALSO: include picture of the finished pizza, like everyone else is doing on the forum.

I don't think this is too much to ask since you have been making this pizza for many years. Also, I am NOT looking for feedback from other members, telling me why or why not this won't happen, the philosophy of Scott123, etc... I just want to see his complete recipe with details and measurements.

Thank YouTomN

Wtf... I don't know that I've ever seen anything quite like this before....

....Therefore, my request is to have Scott123 post his complete recipe for both his NY style pizza dough and his signature NY style sauce that he likes to use. ALSO: include picture of the finished pizza, like everyone else is doing on the forum.....

I don't think this is too much to ask......Also, I am NOT looking for feedback from other members, telling me why or why not this won't happen, the philosophy of Scott123, etc...

TomN

We have been through this entire thing before, same song, different day.

My friend was giving his wife grief one night about her having a male OB/GYN. She shut him up rather quickly when she asked him if a Cardiologist needed to have a heart attack to practice medicine.

Yes, you are asking alot. This is a huge part of his life, he doesn't have to hand anything to anyone, and certainly doesn't need a picture. All this information is on the forum anyway, go research it for yourself.

If I offended anyone, please accept my apologies. I was only asking see a complete recipe with details and possible photos, so that I could make it at home. . Apparently, i offended people which was not my intent. Therefore, i am done posting any comments or asking for recipes concerning this subject. Again, please accept my apologies.

If I offended anyone, please accept my apologies. I was only asking see a complete recipe with details and possible photos, so that I could make it at home. . Apparently, i offended people which was not my intent. Therefore, i am done posting any comments or asking for recipes concerning this subject. Again, please accept my apologies.

TomN

Tom he did post a formula a while back somewhere but I'm positive there were no pictures. I actually remember seeing a picture of a pizza a top a white oven but I'm not sure it was his or a picture of someone else's pizza he said his looked like. As to where that formula is; no clue, you'll have to fish through his posts.

Again, no offense towards anyone on the forum, but i am just not interested anymore. However, i did learn that all recipes need to be adjusted to your part of the country despite any recipe. Thanks again.

TomNPShere is an article review that i posted about dough recipes, under the dough ingredients thread.