Originally posted by UncleVinnys
I just cannot buy the demon theory.
With the evidence we see of technological advances from these creatures, we would be toast by now if there were a truly evil intent.
Rather, check out the works of Dr. John Mack. His in-depth interviews with abductees suggests there is mind-expanding, even spiritual evolution taking
place with these contacts.

Forrest J Ackerman states that it was "the late '70s" when Palmer revealed Shaver had been treated for paranoid schizophrenia in a mental
hospital.

Which brings this up (which could be interesting) The Influencing Machine !

On the Origin of the "Influencing Machine" in Schizophrenia

The schizophrenic influencing machine is a machine of mystical nature. The patients are able to give only vague hints of its construction. It
consists of boxes, cranks, levers, wheels, buttons, wires, batteries, and the like. Patients endeavor to discover the construction of the apparatus by
means of their technical knowledge, and it appears that with the progressive popularization of the sciences, all the forces known to technology are
utilized to explain the functioning of the apparatus.

Demons have no physical form, they can only occupy an extant physical form. So a car could be demonically possessed, like in Stephen King's novel
Christine, or a person could be possessed, like in The Exorcist movie, or an alien could be possessed by a demon. Of course all of that is fiction.
Demons do not exist. The concept of demons was just a way of understanding mental illness before the age of reason.

For thousands of years people fumbled around with misleading notions of truth. But Isaac Newton changed all that:

"He who draws conclusions from his hypotheses forms an ingenius romance, but a romance it will be"

Newton tells us that unless you can design an experiment that could potentially prove your hypothesis false, and only derive conclusions from data
gathered during that experiment, then you are falling in love with yourself. And by all accounts Newton held a PhD in vanity and self-loathing, so he
would know better than anyone.

Every time somebody has carried out an experiment to falsify a paranormal hypothesis, then no paranormal activity is measured, and the mystics tell us
the phenomenon is mischevious and eludes measurement, hence we are unable to falsify their parlour tricks.

I'm feeling slightly mischevious today, so I will end with a quote by the genius rapper from Brooklyn called Jeru the Damaja:

Now if we all got one of these things, The "God Helmet", we could (maybe) see all kinds of aliens, gods, ghost, or whatever is in our worst
nightmares.

The "God Helmet" refers to an experimental apparatus originally called the "Koren helmet" after its inventor Stanley Koren. It was developed
by Koren and neuroscientist Michael Persinger to study creativity and the effects of subtle stimulation of the temporal lobes.[1] Reports by
participants of a "sensed presence" while wearing the God helmet brought public attention and resulted in several TV documentaries.

Well it depends on the entire spectrum of what ET is being discussed. For they are many and varied. Wherever there is a strong presence of evil,
entity or in corporal, or even just coding, like dark hat symbols and hieroglyphs, there is a very strong presence of LOVE, for we never walk in the
valley of darkness without our Source, God, Higher Self, and Loving Families, rod and staff to comfort and guide.

There are wonderful cosmic ciitizens and family/Family, both spirit and flesh as we call it.

And ETs are many things. Some are corporal citizens of the solar system, some are entiities, some of the entities form hybrid bodies, and wear them
like suits and those who do that are not all bad.

There are far more loving and good people in the "heavens" and all that is, than evil. Have faith, in yourself, in the love within everyone, and in
the Loving Team that watches over and if the other side is observing or accessing, give them the hero or zero lectures of their lives. Thats what I
do. And tell them they are missed and loved back home and need to be happy to so its time for them to no longer take the long way home but
return.

Sleep Paralysis, Schizotype expression, as well as artificial drug induced expression of neurological states similar previous and others have been
observed. Many will disagree and even take offense to such, but, of all the sciences that have examined the UFO and Alien
Abduction/contact/experience phenomenon, Psychology has been the most successful and possibly had the only successes out of any scientific examination
of these phenomenons in reliably replicating and testing postulates successfully. Thus, from a purely scientific standpoint, where reliable
predictable replication of results that can be logged and peer reviewed with objectivity and very little 'interpretation' required, results coming
from Psychology would strongly indicate a large portion of experiences in the wild as resulting from a person's own personal neurological state. This
would certainly account for social evolutions and perceptions over time among many other factors.

That is a gigantic leap of faith on your part and presumes way too much. You are confusing being able to replicate something with the many ways in
which it can be replicated. Some of these people may have seen Venus or Mars, how would you know which one? Do you honestly think that all of these
people are liars, confused or had psychotic episodes. We made two Presidents, Carter and Reagan. You also ignore cases where there was physical
residue of the events. Jacque Vallee is no fool and highly respected. He has also been peer reviewed. You should check out who he is.

The only physical form is like "AVATAR" bodies driven by beings from else where. They even refer to our bodies a containers. And apparently animals
are weird to them and our relationship with the animals.Logic is important I agree but you have to keep your mind open so you don't flip out when you
run into something that isn't supposed to exist.
And isn't there a thing about chocolate?

I am aware of "The Evidence", as I am also well aware of many of the talking heads and personalities spotlighted, quoted, and paraded around in
defense of said evidence(s).

Despite any of this, however, none such of any real value have been reliably observed under controlled conditions or been of any nature verifiable and
solely attributable to the UFO phenomenon, or the ETH.

All counts have reasonable and mundane attributions though often rejected in favor bias of UFO/Space Alien by proponents all too eager in their
pursuit of a biased, non-objective explanation.

Over 70 years of interest and investigation into the UFO/Space Alien Contact phenomenon has brought forward only ONE clear, consistent, predictable,
testable data point that can be replicated and that ONE clear data point relevant as it applies to UFOs and Space Alien Contact Experiences is
PEOPLE.

Over 70 years of modern interest and investigation of the topic and all we have (other than successful studies conducted in Psychology) is "I don't
know", and wild speculations resembling descriptions of the sort anyone can hear from a subject expressing a Schizotype disorder.

The people factor is fairly consistent. and the people factor can and has been reliably, predictably tested and replicated.

I do not deny that there is a UFO phenomenon.

There is, however, an important distinction to be made in separating the UFO phenomenon and the Space Alien contact experience
Phenomenon.

As it applies to the UFO phenomenon, it would seem that there is indeed SOMETHING there, but, whatever that something IS, remains UNKNOWN.

A value X = Unknown can include aliens if you want it to, but, a value X = Unknown also includes possible and even probable attributions to (unknown,
un-categorized) natural phenomenon, just as plasma balls, sprites, geological piezoelectric discharges or Earth Lights were, until relatively
recently, unobserved, unknown (to science), and uncategorized.
The UFO phenomenon, as such, and as X = Unknown can, and has, gotten along quite nicely without any requirement for space aliens.

Further, many X attributions as applies to UFO sightings (not including Space Alien Contact for this) can not be ruled out as misidentification of
known phenomenon, as well as sightings of secret aircraft testing.
There are no 100% Space Alien UFOs reported. If there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
All incidents and reports are questionable enough such that they're questionable, and at best maintain a value of X = UNKNOWN.

An important and separate distinction from UFOs; we have the Space Alien contact experience phenomenon, often attributed to UFOs, but, according
studies, is strongly indicated as entirely attributable to subject specific Psychology, and in many cases, subjects have indeed been found and
documented as expressing a Schizotype disorder.

Schizotypy isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing. There is such a state as "Healthy" Schizotypy:

Although aiming to reflect some of the features present in diagnosable mental illness, schizotypy does not necessarily imply that someone who is
more schizotypal than someone else is more ill. For example, certain aspects of schizotypy may be beneficial. Both the Unusual experiences and
Cognitive disorganisation aspects have been linked to Creativity and academic achievement. Jackson proposed the concept of ‘benign schizotypy’ in
relation to certain classes of religious experience, which he suggested might be regarded as a form of problem-solving and therefore of adaptive
value. The link between positive schizotypy and certain facets of creativity is consistent with the notion of a "healthy schizotypy", which may
account for the persistence of schizophrenia-related genes in the population despite their many dysfunctional aspects.

I encourage those unfamiliar with, or biased against Psychological classifications to educate yourselves. "Crazy" is not a clinical designation, but a societal perception.

Schizotypy in some ways, considering the creative aspects associated with healthy subjects, could
be like having Synesthesia which is actually quite a wonderful and fascinating condition.

Granted there are those expressing a Schizotype such as Schizophrenia who do require supervision and management. There are, however, also many very
high functioning Schizotypes who have jobs, relationships, families, and perform essentially just as anyone else with the exception of managing day to
day life where their condition expresses interference.

Thus, please, DO be careful when making the distinction between UFO and Space Alien contact experiences.

edit on 3-7-2013 by Druscilla because: spelling corrections and highlight for emphasis.

As it applies to the UFO phenomenon, it would seem that there is indeed SOMETHING there, but, whatever that something IS, remains UNKNOWN.

I don't believe that we are seeing aliens either, that is why I pointed you to Dr. Jacque Vallee. You should research him, he is an interesting
person and not stupid. I studied psychology, everything that we don't want to believe is classified as an illusion. NDEs don't exist and people that
think they have seen something in the sky are all crazy, if only for a moment. I ask that science be consistent, recreate the big bang, everything
from nothing. If you cannot then will you still believe in it?

You're overgeneralizing and simplifying defensively and being entirely non-objective You even stoop to using the word "crazy" when I JUST said that
"crazy is NOT a clinical classification.
Further, you go so far as to claim that anyone that sees something in the sky is labelled as 'crazy'.
Such aint so, though you may think or feel so, and even may be able to come up with examples where such has occurred, but from an objective
interrogative perspective, such aint so.

Thank you for such an informative OP....as someone who has had a very close encounter at one period in their life, I tend to side on the side
of demonic activity, although I'm not ruling out interdimensional phenomena.

In particular, this quote struck me immediately:

"But the UFO phenomenon simply does not behave like extraterrestrial visitors. It actually molds itself in order to fit a given culture."
- John Ankerberg, The Facts on UFOs and Other Supernatural Phenomena, p. 10

What always bothered me about my personal encounter (besides the experience itself) was the ship design resembled a variation of the ships in the
original "War of the Worlds" and the first thing that went through my head was "Oh great, everyone is just going to think it's some latent layover
from watching that movie."

You're overgeneralizing and simplifying defensively and being entirely non-objective You even stoop to using the word "crazy" when I JUST said
that "crazy is NOT a clinical classification.
Further, you go so far as to claim that anyone that sees something in the sky is labelled as 'crazy'.
Such aint so, though you may think or feel so, and even may be able to come up with examples where such has occurred, but from an objective
interrogative perspective, such aint so.

Edit: I think now you were framing those statements as examples of what you feel the general consensus of perception is.

edit on 3-7-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Dear Druscilla,

I am sorry for saying crazy, would delusional be a better word? If people experience something I don't believe in are the delusional? If you prefer
another word I will accept that. Same meaning, they "thought" they experienced something that they did not. Science, real science, says we test
hypothesis. It does not say we ignore them out of hand because people can be confused. That is not science. When one completely ignores all the
scientists that have studied the "UFO" phenomenon, you are ignoring science. Look up Lonnie Zamora, an interesting policeman. Physical evidence and
he never changed his story. After he died some tried to discredit him; but nobody had the courage to call him out while he was alive, not even the
government.

Neither quantum physics or the paranormal seem to impress people who are unwilling to accept that there is more to the universe than what is seen.

One of our brains greatest abilities is to think in the abstract, and this is something no other animal can do, but we do it so well that we spend
about 90% of our brain power in the abstract world. We can’t even cook dinner without creating it first in the abstract. A side effect to this is
that we can invent something abstractly and inject it into our reality as fact. Whether religion, aliens, zombies or the flavor of the month we will
take pure thought and make it real.

All one needs to do is look at the evolution of science fiction over the last 100 years and we see how it started out very crude with little
substance, and the alien phenomena has been almost linear to this process in at first it was crude too and evolved into what it is today, just as
science fiction has.

We also just need to see that if we look back 6000 years of modern civilization we have nothing more than what humans have socially created. We have
eye witnesses and interpretations wall art, interpretations of pictures/videos etc all using our abstract abilities. What more do we have that doesn't
have human finger prints all over it?

The present age is under the influence of a force, in magical terminology, Horus. It's manifestations may be noted in the destruction of old
institutions and ideas, the discovery and liberation of new energies, and a trend towards power governments, war, homosexuality, infantilism, and
schizophrenia. ~ Jack Parsons

One thing we can be sure of: We live with a mystery that no simple explanation can elucidate, Peace my brothers and sisters.

Not magic, but definitely a force. It changes the flow of electrons so in a sense it is a "steering" force so symbolically it can be
associated with gov'ts and yes war, but all of that other nonsense of "homosexuality, infantilism, schizophrenia" etc is overlay, (bordering on a
Freudian slip?).

You're overgeneralizing and simplifying defensively and being entirely non-objective You even stoop to using the word "crazy" when I JUST said
that "crazy is NOT a clinical classification.
Further, you go so far as to claim that anyone that sees something in the sky is labelled as 'crazy'.
Such aint so, though you may think or feel so, and even may be able to come up with examples where such has occurred, but from an objective
interrogative perspective, such aint so.

Edit: I think now you were framing those statements as examples of what you feel the general consensus of perception is.

edit on 3-7-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Science, real science, says we test hypothesis. It does not say we ignore them out of hand because people can be confused. That is not science. When
one completely ignores all the scientists that have studied the "UFO" phenomenon, you are ignoring science.

I don't, of course, expect anyone to actually read any of these since typically calling for sources is just a tactic where any sources brought
forward are ignored in favor of continued biased, highly opinionated speculations and personal feeling assertions framed as fact.

Anyone actually interested in reading such material would have Google'd "Psychology Alien Abduction", set the reading level filter to advanced, and
then filtered through the papers and articles available on their own.

Originally posted by AQuestion
When one completely ignores all the scientists that have studied the "UFO" phenomenon, you are ignoring science.

Um, NO.
That's called academic disagreement in favor of TESTED, VERIFIED, REPEATABLE, PEER REVIEWED paradigm.
Name all the UFO heroes you want, but, as many as you can find claiming that we're having secret visitors playing secret alien date rape, or making
speculation on terms that are essentially baseless, I can find entire Universities full of accredited Experts that will laugh at it all.

Disagreeing with your UFO heroes is not a denial of Science. Scientists disagree all the time.

If your UFO Heroes could bring about something that actually has some meat to it, let's talk. Until then, we've got over 70 investigative years of
a whole lot of absolutely nothing other than "I don't know", and fantasy speculation about things like ETH.

When it comes to the South African Children, just for one, not ALL of the children were interviewed, and those that were were interviewed by
over-zealous biased UFOlogists who did not follow anti-contamination protocols.

They were interviewed by John Mack, a very smart and humble guy who was a psychiatrist, writer, and professor at Harvard Medical School. Having said
that, his take on the alien abduction phenomena is not entirely in line with my take on it. I'm not so willing to overlook all the suspicious things
they do like he was. He was too willing to embrace their presence and didn't put enough effort into questioning their motives. EDIT: and for the
record I personally think it's silly to say they are demons.

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