You guys were all right about me. I'm a flaky troublemaker, bossy, prideful, you name it, I'm it.

I now we are LOL, just pulling your leg there...

Quote

So I'm not converting to anything. It's minimalist RC for me. Show up for sunday evening Mass at the psalms and cut out after communion. Perfect, no mortal sin and no thinking about religion.

Why don't you just take communion at both places & see which one works the best for you That's what I did for a few years lol, I know the big theologians on the forum here will come down on me for this lol, but sometimes there are no answers to hard questions. I went through the same thing you did for quite some time & do what your heart tells you instead of your reasoning or what others tell you what you need to do. Give Orthodoxy a fair chance because obviously God is tugging at your heart else you wouldn't be going through what you are now. Good luck!!!

Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

I hope you'll rethink. It's like St. Paul said, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on him for everlasting life." I used to struggle a lot with the type of thing you're talking about, until I thought, do I imagine that I've beaten God? Do I think that I've sinned enough that He's no longer able to forgive me? This was really significant for me, because I realized that until then I had half-consciously been thinking that God was forgiving me because my sins weren't really all that bad. It sounds like you've lost your confidence in yourself, which is a good thing, but only if it's the foundation of gaining confidence in God. Once you openly admit that you don't have a lot going for you, and you're just looking to God to save you, there's not much of a "game" to be played anymore, in the Church or anywhere else.I'm sorry if I've been a bit nosy or presumptuous; I know I don't really know that much about you, but I definitely wish you the best.

Logged

Let me love myself only if I love thee and do all things for thy sake.

I just can't do this anymore. I'm not cut out for this religiousy stuff.

You guys were all right about me. I'm a flaky troublemaker, bossy, prideful, you name it, I'm it.

So why play the church 'game' anymore?

I'm not going to try to be something I can never be anymore. It just causes me pain.

So I'm not converting to anything. It's minimalist RC for me. Show up for sunday evening Mass at the psalms and cut out after communion. Perfect, no mortal sin and no thinking about religion.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Wow...if you're still online here, what brought about that sudden change of heart?

I'm sorry that the attempt to "'dox" has hurt so bad. Lots of us can relate, myself included. I went through a period (however brief) where I not only questioned the denomination I'd been brought up in, but also Christianity as a whole...basically because throwing it all out would be easier than trying to deal with which confession to go to, if any, as it wasn't an obvious choice for a good long while.

I mention that because, in spite of the "no more religious stuff" that you posted, there's still something in you, I think, that longs for God...otherwise, why would you continue to go to Mass of any kind? You're not considering "throwing it all out" like I did, so maybe there's something inside that's still longing, but scared or hurt or I don't know what.

Maybe there's someone you can talk to about how you're feeling right now? Someone who won't get all "religiousy" on you? Hope so. God bless, Jennifer, and prayers for ya'.

I just can't do this anymore. I'm not cut out for this religiousy stuff.

Relax. Take a deep breath. And then do what seems to make sense. If that means backing off for a bit, then do that. I myself realized a few years ago that I was also not cut out for the "ueber" religion crowd, and that trying to be that was actually burning me out. So I stepped back for a bit to get my bearings, and when I returned it was with more balance, and felt more natural for me.

Quote

You guys were all right about me. I'm a flaky troublemaker, bossy, prideful, you name it, I'm it.

So are we all!

Quote

So why play the church 'game' anymore?

I'm not going to try to be something I can never be anymore. It just causes me pain.

Yes, I have been exactly there, Jennifer. For me, the key was realizing that I didn't have to be something I was not, but that I should just be me, or rather the person I was meant to be ... which may be different from the person I was trying to be. Getting there for me meant stepping back for a bit to get some perspectives on both myself and my own faith ... away from the books and the theologies and the dogmatic controversies and the religious folk who talk about religion all the time. I would encourage you to take heart in this process .. it isn't easy, but it is rewarding, wherever it leads.

Quote

It's minimalist RC for me. Show up for sunday evening Mass at the psalms and cut out after communion. Perfect, no mortal sin and no thinking about religion.

You may want to try doing what makes sense for a while, and trying to resist the urge -- which can be powerful at times -- to make snap decisions about anything related to this. Please understand that I am not saying this because I would like you to be Orthodox. I honestly don't think that the end-game (RC, EC, EO, whatever) is the critical point, it is the *process* that is critical, and, above all else, it is a process of self-discovery ... and a part of that is being able to step back and take a break from things, and do what seems to make sense, when things get overwhelming. I wish you the best, whatever your choices may be.

I guess I think why do all the work (church, fasting, prayer, all that) just to end up some self-righteous religious person?

I'm angry and hurt right now. That's what brought this about. I'm angry because the administrator on the Steve Ray forum is spreading lies about me and there's nothing I can because she's the administrator. She's also publically chastised me for my many shortcomings. I'm angry because on the byzcath forum I was lectured about how I don't know anything about Catholicism and have no charity in my heart.

I am NOT a good person. I fully confess to that. But I have never said to someone that they don't have faith. I may tell someone they're ignorant (because well, I think some people are ignorant) but I don't tell people they don't have faith.

But I'm sure I'm the bad one. I don't say my prayers every day. I don't go to Mass all the time. I don't fast, whatever it is, I don't do it but I'm sure they do.

But why do it, if you just end up like that? And yes, I'm being judgmental. Another one of my faults.

But I'm sure I'm the bad one. I don't say my prayers every day. I don't go to Mass all the time. I don't fast, whatever it is, I don't do it but I'm sure they do.

But why do it, if you just end up like that? And yes, I'm being judgmental. Another one of my faults.

It has always been my experience that such people exemplify the Pharisee as opposed to the Publican.

"Look at me! I fast! I go to Mass every day! I spend four hours a day on my knees praying! And look at you! You can't even get the basics right! What's wrong with you? You suck! You should be more like me!"

I think you know what Christ had to say about such people...

The fact that you are here publically admitting your faults and weaknesses, and sincerely, I might add, puts you more on par with the Publican than with the Pharisees who run certain boards.

And we know what Christ had to say about the Publican.

Brendan makes a very good point regarding the importance of the process. That's what theosis is all about...the process. Don't let the internet naysayers get you down. If they were serious in their own theosis, they would not even see your faults (or mine or anyone else's) but be blinded by their own.

I think a hiatus from "teh intarweb" might be a good thing. All of us should do it from time to time.

May God bless you on your journey, Jennifer.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

...I'm a flaky troublemaker, bossy, prideful, you name it, I'm it... and have no charity in my heart... I am NOT a good person. I fully confess to that... But I'm sure I'm the bad one. I don't say my prayers every day. I don't go to Mass all the time. I don't fast, whatever it is, I don't do it but I'm sure they do... And yes, I'm being judgmental. Another one of my faults.

Sounds like me... are you sure it is yourself that you are describing there my dear lady?

icxn

Quote

It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agothon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agothon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified. - Desert Fathers

I guess I think why do all the work (church, fasting, prayer, all that) just to end up some self-righteous religious person?

I'm angry and hurt right now. That's what brought this about. I'm angry because the administrator on the Steve Ray forum is spreading lies about me and there's nothing I can because she's the administrator. She's also publically chastised me for my many shortcomings. I'm angry because on the byzcath forum I was lectured about how I don't know anything about Catholicism and have no charity in my heart.

I am NOT a good person. I fully confess to that. But I have never said to someone that they don't have faith. I may tell someone they're ignorant (because well, I think some people are ignorant) but I don't tell people they don't have faith.

But I'm sure I'm the bad one. I don't say my prayers every day. I don't go to Mass all the time. I don't fast, whatever it is, I don't do it but I'm sure they do.

But why do it, if you just end up like that? And yes, I'm being judgmental. Another one of my faults.

I'm sorry about what is going on. You are not necessarily the "bad" one. It is usually a mixture. Realizing that you're not a "good" person is probably the best thing you can do. People who think they are "good" don't need God. Those who know they are not "good" know they need God. I think these people are often the ones who are most capable of reaching out to all people, no matter how "bad" they are, because we know that God wants to help people, especially the "bad". I'm far from being good--I have the same struggles that you have. It seems like I often confess not keeping up with my prayer rule and the daily scripture readings, but the worse sins are the gossip, the judging, the pride, always thinking I'm right, being so critical of other people, etc. But God forgives and gives me strength to keep struggling, no matter how much I fall. Remember Jesus said in Luke 7:47 that those who have been forgiven much love much. They know that God has forgiven them for so much and for so many bad things and they didn't deserve it. They realize what God did for them.

You don't have to end up being self-righteous (which is another sin I have to confess a lot) and judgmental. In fact, a good priest will help you to get over that.

I guess I think why do all the work (church, fasting, prayer, all that) just to end up some self-righteous religious person?

My priest likes to mention folks like that in some of his homilies -- someone can do a lot in terms of attendance, fasting, blah blah blah...but still basically become more and more a jerk. Basically the idea was that the person used religion to hide from the sin in his life instead of what it's actually there for: to open us up to face our sin and turn to Christ so He can heal us.

I guess I think why do all the work (church, fasting, prayer, all that) just to end up some self-righteous religious person?

True. That's the greatest temptation when engaged in spiritual practice ... it's a form of vanity, I think. One of the keys to me in this is trying to balance things out and trying to cultivate a kind of spiritual humility. It's not easy, I agree.

Quote

angry because the administrator on the Steve Ray forum is spreading lies about me and there's nothing I can because she's the administrator. She's also publically chastised me for my many shortcomings. I'm angry because on the byzcath forum I was lectured about how I don't know anything about Catholicism and have no charity in my heart.

That's very unfortunate. It's okay to be angry, however. The critical thing is what to do with your anger.

Quote

But I'm sure I'm the bad one. I don't say my prayers every day. I don't go to Mass all the time. I don't fast, whatever it is, I don't do it but I'm sure they do.

But why do it, if you just end up like that?

It's true that there are religious hypocrites in the world. They made Christ Himself very angry because He knew that they also would lead others away from Him in the process. The good news is that while all people, including the religious ones, are flawed and sinful, not all of them are hypocrites.

I wouldn't be so down on yourself, if I were you. These are difficult things to deal with, and the reality is that everyone's own spiritual life is, in a very real sense, a very personal thing. That personal nature of your own spiritual life has been violated somewhat by folks who don't know you, and that is a very difficult thing to deal with. You might want to consider just hanging on spiritually for a while until things calm down for you in this area somewhat. Let the anger come ... and let it eventually go, as it will at some point, and hang on spiritually. Listen to what is in your own heart, and not the words of folks who are attacking you without knowing you.

Christ was not about "religion". Christ came to do away with "religion". All churches with their man made rules are all ABOUT "religion"

Just follow Christ. He is in your heart through your prayers.

Sentiments like this don't help. Without the Church, we don't know who Christ is. The Church is Christ's body. What you are saying is, "follow the idea about Christ, don't join his body" which is convenient as you can make Christ into the personalistic idea you want him to be, and since you have made yourself your own Pope, all you have to do is "pray" and he will "lead you"---lead you right where you want him to since he is only now an idea floating around in your head. Sorry to be harsh, but you are denying Christ by denying the Church.

Religiosity and false interest in externals of religion are dangerous, but that is a separate issue from THE CHURCH. Tom, why can't you answer a question or point without going to the total OPPOSITE extreme? Orthodoxy is about balance in life. Finding the right place. Finding the right way. Not bouncing from one extreme to another.

As a Byzantine Catholic I am struggling with the exact same issues you mention. For me, I know which way I am leaning and am incredibly frightened by the personal implications - impact on my family, life, etc.. I don't know your personal situation being somewhat new to this forum but I recently read something similar to the following in the Evergetinos:

Quote

It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him, having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper, they said to him, “Aren’t you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?” “Yes, it is very true,” he answered. They resumed, “Aren’t you that Agathon who is always talking nonsense?” “I am.” Again they said, “Aren’t you Agathon the heretic?” But at that, he replied, “I am not a heretic.” So they asked him, “Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.” He replied, “The first accusations I take to myself, for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.” At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified.

Perhaps in your situation with this Ray person you mention, just ignore him/her. No group has a corner on the Pharisee concession. When our Lord was being accused of much by the Pharisees and Sanhedrin before Pilate, he stood silent. You must be a good person if despite your frustrations you are not giving up on God completely. I believe God is standing with you during this turbulent time.

I guess I think why do all the work (church, fasting, prayer, all that) just to end up some self-righteous religious person?

I'm angry and hurt right now. That's what brought this about. I'm angry because the administrator on the Steve Ray forum is spreading lies about me and there's nothing I can because she's the administrator. She's also publically chastised me for my many shortcomings. I'm angry because on the byzcath forum I was lectured about how I don't know anything about Catholicism and have no charity in my heart.

I am NOT a good person. I fully confess to that. But I have never said to someone that they don't have faith. I may tell someone they're ignorant (because well, I think some people are ignorant) but I don't tell people they don't have faith.

But I'm sure I'm the bad one. I don't say my prayers every day. I don't go to Mass all the time. I don't fast, whatever it is, I don't do it but I'm sure they do.

But why do it, if you just end up like that? And yes, I'm being judgmental. Another one of my faults.

Jennifer, I am fairly certain no one is perfect in their prayer life, fasting, etc, etc. I know I am far from being perfect even as I try to strive forward.

To be honest it sounds like the best thing that anyone could do for you, even though I don't know you personally is to give you a great big Long *Hug* and say "I love you" no matter where you are at inside.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Doesn't matter, the Lord may have a purpose for bring this old thread back to life.

If the Lord is actually trevor72694, then possibly.

Pray tell, why would you think the Lord would not work through trevor to bring back this thread? Does the Lord or doesn't the Lord act in ways mysterious through people for a greater purpose?

BL has a rather hazy view of the Lord, and how He operates.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Doesn't matter, the Lord may have a purpose for bring this old thread back to life.

If the Lord is actually trevor72694, then possibly.

Pray tell, why would you think the Lord would not work through trevor to bring back this thread? Does the Lord or doesn't the Lord act in ways mysterious through people for a greater purpose?

God worked through the mailman to bring me my mail, right after he was done working through a squirrel who came to my back porch, but not before he worked through someone browsing old posts on a message board so that he could resurrect a 5 year old thread which has benefited no one.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Doesn't matter, the Lord may have a purpose for bring this old thread back to life.

If the Lord is actually trevor72694, then possibly.

Pray tell, why would you think the Lord would not work through trevor to bring back this thread? Does the Lord or doesn't the Lord act in ways mysterious through people for a greater purpose?

God worked through the mailman to bring me my mail, right after he was done working through a squirrel who came to my back porch, but not before he worked through someone browsing old posts on a message board so that he could resurrect a 5 year old thread which has benefited no one.

Your omniscience never ceases to amaze me: so you know all 2008 persons who have viewed this, and know that none benefited?

Today we had a Sister of Mercy visit us from Byelorus, who said that she only started to go to Church when she went to university, because she felt compeled by the memory as a toddler of her grandmother (the only believer in her family growing up) teaching her the Our Father. One sows, another reaps, but the increase is given by God.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 09:04:38 PM by ialmisry »

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth