Your comments regarding Miele vs. Bosch and BMW vs. VW somewhat go to the point above about Germany engineering produced in Taiwan. Bosch HAS moved a lot of their products (tools and appliances) to near east and asian manufacturing. The results speak for themselves. My Miele products are superb and made in Germany. My Festool tools are WAY better than most of Bosch products. My VW has Chinese made tires on it that cost more than German continentals and have sidewall blowouts just by looking at them!

My Chinese made specialized S-works is a piece of junk. My Chinese made Cervelo had a fork rust out with little to no exposure to sweat/water. Sorry, I cannot believe that Chinese products are anything other than another way for "high end brands" to extract extra dollars out of unwitting suckers. I opted for C59 over an M10 because I was willing to pay for craftsmanship by workers who CARE about what they are doing. Maybe this is naive.

The question of Germany vs. Italian components is an interesting one. To me, I cannot imagine the mechanical group sets working any better than they already do by Campagnolo! I just purchased 1 super record and 2 chorus groups in the last 6 months and they are just impeccable! Not sure what Germans could bring to the table other than improved electronic shifting.

It all comes down to QC. If the quality control is poor...it doesn't matter where its made.

I've had a few German cars...and currently drive a German car...and electrically...they aren't the most reliable.

And when the QC is equel? Then it counts HOW its constructed.So that comes on top.

Btw in general Japanese are best in electrical things.

other thing:BMW is not a car. Its a BRAND that makes several car MODELS.

Bosch and Miele you can compare really, total different companies that make products in different quality lines. From budget to pro. Bosch 330.000 employees worldwide / Miele 15.000Miele has a nice history, they made in the past also . . . bikes, lol and a motorized bike and even a car. These days not all what is sold as Miele is also made by Miele. Like Miele fridges are made by Liebherr.

The question of Germany vs. Italian components is an interesting one. To me, I cannot imagine the mechanical group sets working any better than they already do by Campagnolo! I just purchased 1 super record and 2 chorus groups in the last 6 months and they are just impeccable! Not sure what Germans could bring to the table other than improved electronic shifting.

Image that they would come with a different approach?Against your imagination Campa found reasons to update the topgroups for 2015.

There were rumours they wanted to make the design of roadracebikes more free from rules.That could be an oppurtunity for new concepts for group-manufacturers, and maybe also to includein such a new concept more solid bracket options. I see room for improvement.

When the QC is equal...then it will depend on how well the labor force is trained.

If two different countries use the same machinery to make the same product...then it will come down to the training of the workforce. Yes?

and when the labor force is trained equel?

Youre missing the point a bit . . . The keypoint for the start of this topic.

Germany is positively known for manufacturing/engineeringLike Italy is positively known for designinglike Switzerland is positively known for highend watch factoriesetcetc

So when you start about where to develop certain equipment there is some logics to mention Germany.When you talk about designing, there is some logics to mention Italy.When you talk about highend watches there is some logics you mention Switzerland.etcetc

I'm not really that interested in hydro yet and can't see it catching on despite many of its merits. My guess is that it has more to do with history than anything. Campag has been making stuff for a really, really long time. Several Japanese companies came before or at the start of Shimano and they have a lot of mechanical expertise from their other products as well. Sram had their first forays into a very niche market with GripShift/MTB. Where would a German company have fit in historically? I can't think of a time or place where it would've been logical for some kind of product to spring up in the German market and spread outward.

I'm not really that interested in hydro yet and can't see it catching on despite many of its merits. My guess is that it has more to do with history than anything. Campag has been making stuff for a really, really long time. Several Japanese companies came before or at the start of Shimano and they have a lot of mechanical expertise from their other products as well. Sram had their first forays into a very niche market with GripShift/MTB. Where would a German company have fit in historically? I can't think of a time or place where it would've been logical for some kind of product to spring up in the German market and spread outward.

Well...SRAM has their R&D over in Germany...

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eurperg wrote:

My wife is sitting next to me, and just thought that was a dildo, not a saddle..

True, very true. Did they always though? My basic point was that there has to be a decisive event or market force that creates a need for a product. People don't typically say "Well, we're really good at engineering things so lets just make a cycling component group even though we really have no firsthand knowledge of how its used, desired features, or the immediate mechanics thereof"

I wonder where the SRAM wireless stuff is being developed...in Chicago or Schweinfurt?

I think in the end...maybe the bean counters don't think its worth it.

To put out a high end group and have it sell looks like a very difficult and expensive endeavor. Competing with Shimano will take alot of money. The R&D, marketing, and manufacturing will needs tons of money thrown at it. Like someone mentioned earlier...its got to offer something that the big 3 don't already have.

Box components is supposed to have something coming out on the MTB side with their push to shift up the cassette and press in on the lever to move down...but that hasn't come to market...and its been announced for a while now. http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/09/25/box ... on-brakes/

I wonder how a component startup will do on Shark Tank? Will the sharks invest? LOL

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eurperg wrote:

My wife is sitting next to me, and just thought that was a dildo, not a saddle..

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