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02:13:54 incubot: Everything would be fine if users would learn to love the lash.
02:13:57 But when loud surges lash the sounding shore,
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02:15:00 incubot: I've missed you
02:15:03 Ah, that's probably why I missed it.
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04:32:39 I suspect so, but given my color-blindness, I'm not certain.
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05:09:40 https://synx.us.to/art2/~id/25248/Colorblind.jpg
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05:35:13 my firefox says u are untrusted, halp
05:35:25 la la la
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05:44:34 hello there... i'm using pltscheme, and i'm trying to learn how to make udp socket connections with it... but i can't find out how to receive a datagram in a socket that i just created and connected... can anyone help me?
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05:50:43 Presumably with the UDP-RECEIVE! procedure or its relatives.
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06:04:58 Riastradh: i'm having difficulties with udp-bind!... i want to bind it to my servers port... but it says that i cannot bind the port because it is already in use, so i don't find a way to use one socket to send and receive datagrams with this library
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06:13:50 You can have only one socket file descriptor bound to any given socket address on one machine.
06:15:32 Riastradh: hey, i finally got the time to fix WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES today
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06:17:06 ?
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06:21:22 I dimly recall something about a problem with it, but not the details.
06:23:49 Riastradh: you wrote me a CPS macro, but it was slow and possibly buggy
06:23:57 Riastradh: so i finally found the time and rewrote it using ER macros
06:24:38 I see. In that case, it is probably still (inherently) buggy, but less slow.
06:24:48 why is that?
06:25:08 (with-instance-variables foo (x) (let ((x 5)) x))
06:25:20 hmm
06:25:24 oh
06:25:32 (with-instance-variables foo (x) '(set! x 3))
06:25:41 Riastradh: you saw my patch already?
06:25:47 No.
06:25:51 ah
06:26:10 i guess i could deal with the case with QUOTE
06:26:21 Not in general.
06:26:22 but i don't know how macros compose together
06:26:26 (with-instance-variables foo (x) `(set! x 3))
06:26:29 ah
06:26:40 Riastradh: so is there a correct way to solve this?
06:26:53 Not without name macros.
06:27:06 the original MIT scheme implementation traversed the scode
06:27:19 That's an even worse kludge.
06:27:28 what are name macros?
06:27:39 Expansions for references to names, not just applications of names.
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06:28:36 Riastradh: are there implementations of 'name macros'?
06:28:56 PLT Scheme, Chez Scheme, and possibly the R6RS support them.
06:29:12 Riastradh: is that described in the composable macros paper?
06:29:16 No.
06:29:23 There's nothing conceptually hard about this.
06:29:29 It doesn't require a paper to describe.
06:30:13 well, i still don't quite understand - is it something that's solved as part of syntax-case?
06:30:16 The only omission from my sentence above is that name macros (as they are rendered in PLT and Chez (and possibly the R6RS)) can also rewrite SET!s.
06:30:37 (define-syntax foo (identifier-syntax (begin (display "Foo!") +)))
06:30:46 (foo 5 3) ;Value: 8, output: Foo!
06:31:02 SYNTAX-CASE is a red herring.
06:32:27 (The form (FOO 5 3) is equivalent to the form ((BEGIN (DISPLAY "Foo!") +) 5 3), after the above definition of FOO.)
06:32:43 oh, they have those in Common Lisp, right?
06:32:49 they call them something else
06:32:59 Yes. In Common Lisp they are called `symbol macros'.
06:33:01 reader macros?
06:33:03 symbol macros
06:33:04 okay
06:33:06 No, reader macros are different.
06:33:10 Reader macros modify the lexical syntax.
06:33:16 right
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06:33:58 Riastradh: so to get "name macros", one needs to implement identifier-syntax as defined in the R6RS?
06:34:09 that's one strategy
06:34:12 Yes. This requires the macro engine support it.
06:34:35 Generally, name macros are a bad idea.
06:35:07 why is that? it seems useful
06:35:22 Normally, a reference to a name has no side effects.
06:35:28 Name macros throw this valuable property out the window.
06:35:52 hold on, i'm not sure if i completely understand how identifier-syntax works
06:35:59 i'm looking at the example in the R6RS
06:36:00 With macros you have most of this property out the window anyway.
06:36:06 it defines p and the p.car
06:36:20 Only with broken macros, eli.
06:36:21 so if i have a q, do i get q.car automatically?
06:36:26 IOW, you to macro-expand code to do anything related to its meaning.
06:36:53 Not only broken macros -- with macros that themselves expand to binding forms.
06:37:18 No. Even binding forms cannot change the meaning of a reference to a name outside of an operator position.
06:37:53 ...unless you mean that the macro is acting as a binding form itself, and the names you're talking about are to be bound by the macro.
06:38:05 What I mean is that if you want to know when "a reference to a name has no side effects", then you need to know what is "a reference to a name", and that requires expansion no matter what.
06:39:11 Anyway, neither of us will ever persuade the other, so arguing the point is probably not worth the time.
06:39:28 What matters to duncanm right now is that Scheme48 does not have name macros.
06:40:28 (And BTW, they're much more commonly known as "identifier macros").
06:40:43 (The name `identifier' is verbose and silly.)
06:42:13 I could not disagree more on *that*. "name" is highly ambiguous; "identifier" is very concrete (what CLers refer to as "symbols", and what you get in Scheme by adding lexical information to symbols).
06:42:17 (Also, `identifier' sometimes means lexical syntax and sometimes means an object that stands for a symbol and lexical context; of course, the word `lexical' also means something somewhat different in the two phrases where it just occurred.)
06:44:32 If that difference bothers you, then "name" is not going in a direction that resolves the ambiguity, but in the other direction. As for the abiguity itself, I think that it makes perfect sense to use "symbol" for the former and "identifier" for the latter -- and that is exactly what is reflected by bindings in PLT (and probably in Chez and r6rs).
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06:52:02 eli: idenifier macros aside, if i write a macro that binds some identifier, but the body of the macro has a LET, how does one write the macro such that the expansion wouldn't interfere within the scope of the LET?
06:52:16 It won't.
06:52:54 only because the macro also uses a LET for doing the binding, right?
06:53:13 what if it crawls the body and rewrites expressions?
06:53:25 [I didn't follow the question completely, but "it won't" sounds like the right answer.]
06:53:46 What is "it" that crawls?
06:53:58 it = the macro
06:54:29 Then you lose.
06:54:37 ah
06:54:49 That's why WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES is inherently borken.
06:55:19 duncanm: The macro is just a function that is called with a syntax to produce some other syntax; I don't see any difference if you achieve this by crawling over some intermediate syntax that you constuct, but I think that this is not what you eman.
06:55:29 s/The/A/
06:56:22 Riastradh: ah... all this is reminding me of a conversation i had with Olin about htis
06:56:27 eli, WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES is a macro that pretends to bind identifier macros by descending its input and performing substitutions itself. In other words: it loses.
06:57:17 How long ago was it that I wrote WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES for you and told you that it was a provisional measure just to speed up making the code run with minimal changes?
06:57:40 Riastradh: except for set!, if the expansion simply puts a LET around the body, then it'll still work properly, wouldn't it
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06:57:45 Riastradh: we met shortly after x'mas
06:57:52 or befor?
06:57:54 before
06:58:17 No, I'm talking about when I wrote WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES the first time, not the last time we talked about it.
06:58:24 oh, that was a while back
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06:59:00 you might have said all this before already, but i don't have any recollection ;-P
06:59:33 I'm not wondering why the macro is still inherently broken (it can't be `fixed' without adding name macros to Scheme48); I'm wonder why any code still uses it.
07:00:05 yeah, now that i understand the issue, and i now know how much code uses this macro, i'm considering replacing it with something less hacky
07:01:07 Riastradh: basically the form can stay as long as i change set! to something like set-ivar!
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07:03:48 chanson will prolly be chuckling if he sees this conversation - i'm prolly mulling over a macro that he came up with at 3am some 10+ years ago
07:05:33 Riastradh: do you know SOS, is it anything like this?
07:05:45 CVS log entry: `Mostly rewrite this using new syntax. But WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES not rewritten -- it is a terrible kludge and pretty hopeless.'
07:05:54 haha
07:06:06 No, SOS is nothing like this. SOS is a CLOSalike, not a Smalltalkalike.
07:06:14 Riastradh: is there a timestamp on that entry?
07:06:19 2002-01-18
07:06:28 oh, so not so long ago
07:06:41 and SOS is a lot more sound than this?
07:06:46 Yes.
07:06:50 SOS is even documented.
07:07:00 yeah, i've seen the documentation
07:09:27 It, too, uses a code-walking hack, but only as an optimization that does not affect the semantics.
07:09:55 ah... it's something else to do after edwin ;-P
07:10:07 (Specifically, it uses a code-walker to check whether CALL-NEXT-METHOD is referenced. In fact, you could do a coarser-grained version of this optimization with macros, without losing too badly.)
07:10:55 after talking to eli about CLOS a few times, i'm starting to see why schemers don't seem to be too thrilled with CLOS-like systems
07:11:08 but then again, i have no idea why the Common Lisp people seem to accept it to readily
07:11:14 s/to/so/
07:11:50 Because it is gigantic and all-encompassing?
07:12:18 zbigniew: because what is gigantic? CLOS or CL?
07:12:42 I dunno plt seems to have a pretty rigorous object system. Every language is implemented with a class% even.
07:12:46 er, object% I mean.
07:12:54 duncanm: the basic idea is very elegant and powerful, and it takes a while to realize the costs, and exactly how much of that power you actually need.
07:13:06 eli: yeah, i remember, we've talked about this
07:13:31 (send obj message) synx: i was gonna ask about PLT, but i lost track of how many object systems they have
07:13:38 Riastradh: that (`call-next-method') sounds like something that would be elegantly solved with syntax parameters (which I didn't do in Swindle for obvious reasons).
07:13:51 synx: there's another one that doesn't have an explicit SEND syntax, i thought
07:13:59 Or (send-generic obj-message) supposedly costs nothin'
07:14:00 duncanm: Not *that* many.
07:14:13 duncanm: sure, struct.
07:14:17 eli: how many are there?
07:14:27 eli, how so?
07:14:28 but struct isn't a CLOS, just a convenient way to compartmentalize data.
07:14:32 define-record...
07:14:46 duncanm: Swindle is a side-project, there is one system that is used for GUI (and most other "official OO code").
07:14:59 duncanm: So that's only two.
07:15:12 eli, the optimization relies on an upward, not downward, flow of information through the syntax tree.
07:15:32 eli: the GUI one is the one with interfaces and all the bells and whistles? is that the system that prof-j compiles into?
07:15:53 or is prof-j its own OO system?
07:16:03 Riastradh: Because you want `call-next-method' to usually be a syntax error, and you want to have it bound (in any way) to something in the context of a `defmethod'.
07:16:36 The object system does not depend on the GUI. The GUI depends on the object system.
07:16:37 duncanm: Yes, though it's questionable whether that is more bells than Swindle.
07:16:43 That's different, eli.
07:16:48 (oh when i say interfaces, i meant java interfaces)
07:16:51 ahh
07:16:59 duncanm: As for profj, I don't know what it compiles classes to.
07:17:03 so i definitely overestimated
07:17:06 hmmm
07:17:12 Riastradh: How?
07:17:13 so there might be three
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07:17:49 eli: i tutored 213 a few times, so i've seen some of the raw macro-expansions when it broke down - but i don't remember any of the traces
07:18:00 If CALL-NEXT-METHOD is not referenced in a method body, then the method need not be chained, and computing the effective method procedure is easier.
07:18:01 duncanm: It *might* compile Java classes to PLT classes, but I doubt that this is trivially preserving the java semantics.
07:18:28 duncanm: But even if it is implementing java classes on its own, it's not usable (or used) outside of profj.
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07:18:35 right
07:18:57 eli: and the normal PLT OO system is closer to Smalltalk than CLOS, right?
07:19:04 So it's not really "another OO system in PLT", more than an occasional use of a macro to define closures is an "OO system"...
07:19:09 heh
07:19:52 duncanm: Probably, I'm not too familiar with smalltalk, but I think it's (PLT's) is close to it. It's definitely not close to CLOS.
07:20:15 Otherwise, SOS just binds CALL-NEXT-METHOD as an ordinary variable in method bodies. If you use it outside of a method body, it's not bound by default.
07:20:55 Riastradh: Cute, but IIRC, won't work with a CLOS like system.
07:21:01 ?
07:21:14 ahh, one departure from Smalltalk in the PLT OO system has got to be mix-ins
07:21:15 What's a `CLOS-like system', if SOS is not one?
07:21:22 matthias talks about it all the time...
07:21:38 I think that there were some method combinations that chain method calls without them using `call-next-method'.
07:22:28 recent versions of Squeak comes with a Traits system, which i think is similar to mix-ins, but either way, it's not widely used
07:22:41 duncanm: Yes, mixins (which are functions in the PLT case, not clases like in CLOS) are pretty central to the class system. Without them it would be much less useful.
07:23:34 eli: mixins are functions that take classes and returns new classes, right?
07:23:42 Such method combinations, presumably, would be implemented by subclassing .
07:24:11 (SOS does not include support for fancy method combinations.)
07:24:45 i always wanted to read The Art of the MOP, but i never got very far, the content is just very dry
07:24:58 Riastradh: I can't find any on a brief look, so perhaps it's wrong.
07:25:11 Sorry, what's `it'?
07:25:42 Riastradh: did you learn about CLOS from reading the MOP book? or did you learn it from reading the SOS source?
07:25:48 duncanm, it's documentation for a very large and complex system, most of which, to be honest, is not interesting for most programs.
07:25:53 Riastradh: method combinations that chain calls without an explicit `call-next-method' in the method.
07:26:19 (Cue jwz about regular expressions, piped to sed -e 's/regular expressions/the MOP/1'.)
07:26:42 Riastradh: (And BTW, I don't know much about SOS, I only have bad impression from YASOS, which is hopefully completely unrelated.)
07:26:47 Yes, completely.
07:26:58 oh, the one where he says now you have one more problem?
07:27:05 Yep, duncanm.
07:27:36 Riastradh: so did you read the MOP book?
07:27:39 eli, SOS is an implementation of the basic ideas of CLOS on top of a more primitive but more general generic procedure mechanism which handles the hairy parts of caching.
07:28:24 I'm not sure that it's a fair comparison -- regexps are still useful because they're more limited. A CLOS MOP is much more powerful, and can cause much more damage too.
07:28:45 duncanm: Yes, BTW -- mixins are functions from classes to classes.
07:28:47 duncanm, I glanced at it, but not in much depth; it's documentation for a large, complex, and mostly uninteresting system, and, as you said, it's pretty dry. I don't remember how I learned about CLOS; it was probably by rewriting Tiny-CLOS, just like everybody else.
07:29:35 heh
07:30:14 i wonder if i'll ever find the time to go thru the same exercise
07:30:47 It's a thousand lines of Scheme code, about a third of which is irrelevant, another third of which is badly designed and begs to be rewritten, and the final third just requires you to sit and stare.
07:31:24 maybe i'll enjoy the staring part
07:31:27 Hmm, it's even smaller than I remembered.
07:31:34 Closer to five hundred lines of code.
07:31:36 Now, hold on there. You've just described every program I've ever written.
07:32:07 (It has been years since I looked at it.)
07:33:03 And those last few lines sound suspiciously like my wife.
07:34:03 la la la
07:34:35 Riastradh: oh, i rode by Rangoli last week - they're really gone! ;-(
07:34:55 What a pity...
07:35:07 Unfortunately, I didn't find Tanjore to be quite as good.
07:35:10 Riastradh: the same people run another restaurant, i think
07:35:13 right, Tanjore
07:35:40 Riastradh: are you gonna be in boston anytime soon? we could go give it a try
07:35:42 It's in Harvard Square, in the same building as the parking garage (not to be confused with the garage).
07:35:51 hmm
07:36:45 Indian restaurants?
07:36:58 Adamant: yes
07:37:25 I love me some Indian food
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07:40:56 incubot: this facility provides a voluminous dump when asked
07:40:58 surely conjure will provide a similiar facility
07:41:40 aha
07:41:43 haha
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09:00:21 i'm meditating on how to implement 'generalized assignment' as in cl's setf
09:00:55 how do i know how to deal with user defined functions?
09:01:11 (as part of the target expression)
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09:04:07 in cl you can define your own setter functions
09:04:26 (defun car ...) (defun (setf car) ...)
09:05:46 hmm... i thought of something like that:
09:05:57 (define (f x) (cadr x))
09:06:24 there is an srfi about this iirc.
09:06:36
09:06:54 i will search for it...
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09:08:02 *bgdnoy* should stfw -- it's #17
09:09:58 SRFI 17 uses setters like cl -- no way around this, it seems...
09:10:35 (except using some weird meta-eval which keeps the code for everything reachable)
09:11:02 thanks
09:11:07 dylan has generalized setters too, as far as i know it just appends -setter to the getter symbol
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09:31:16 For a vector drawing library in GL, do you think rasterizing them to textures, or converting them to lines/triangles would be more appropriate.
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10:25:59 hey
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10:27:00 heya
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10:30:07 http://paste.org/5603 can someone look my url
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11:22:04 ski_, sorry I can't remember the precise paper that really impressed me :) all their stuff is good, and reading around their research project gives a good feel for the kinds of things PE could be applied to. IIRC the metaobjects one is interesting in terms of its approach to structuring the reflective tower; but other goodies are "Partial Evaluator as a Compiler for Reflective Languages", and "Partial Evaluation of Call-by-value \lambda-calculus with Si
11:22:04 de-effects"
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11:22:58 lisppaste: url
11:22:58 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
11:23:14 i fix my mistake :d
11:23:18 berat: lisp paste does paren matching and the like, makes it preferable
11:23:22 berat: awesome.
11:23:52 Arelius, by the way i am using plia scheme
11:24:12 plia scheme?
11:24:48 pika scheme perhaps?
11:24:53 also, did you get you're problem solved?
11:32:38 plai
11:32:44 sorry
11:32:47 it is plai
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11:35:16