Sorry but i think you may be missing my point. I accept that some of these practices bring health benefits. Acupuncture certainly can in some cases, hence why in my earlier post I said that I had had it for shoulder pain with some beneficial effect. However studies on pain via acupuncture show that needling releases endorphins, so contrary to your statement it has been scientifically explained and some time ago in fact-I remember discussing just this endorphin release with my late uncle in the 1980s, an anesthesiologist (i.e. Western medical doctor) and acupuncturist, so it is nothing new. In the case of tooth repair, it is more likely hypnosis, where the patient is convinced he will feel no pain if he is needled first. None of this points to Chi or any undetectable energy in any way.

This is why you are getting it wrong:you have a strong belief in chi for superstitious reasons and you look for that to explain apparently amazing phenomena. Logically you need to look at cause and effect, not say chi is undoubtedly the cause because you believe it is or simply by pointing to effects that are explainable scientifically.

You have also widened chi to involve the entire body of alternative medicine. The thread concerns kata as a method of healing, for which there remains not a shred of evidence, any more than there does for chi, only strongly held belief.

How do small needles stuck into the flesh triger an endorphin response? What I mean is, what specifically is happening to the body that needles stuck at SPECIFIC MERIDIAN LINES create an endorphin response?

--Chris

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."--Basho

How do small needles stuck into the flesh triger an endorphin response? What I mean is, what specifically is happening to the body that needles stuck at SPECIFIC MERIDIAN LINES create an endorphin response?

--Chris

Nothing happens that needs undetectable energy flows to explain it. That is what I mean by superstitious: you want mysterious chi energy to be the answer whatever happens, in the absence of all or any evidence. The effects are all physical and/or psychological.

Quote:Nothing happens that needs undetectable energy flows to explain it. That is what I mean by superstitious: you want mysterious chi energy to be the answer whatever happens, in the absence of all or any evidence. The effects are all physical and/or psychological.

No, I don't. Again, rather than strawmaning my argument, why don't you actually point out where I "want mysterious chi energy" to be the source? Never have I said such a thing. My overall point here has been that 'chi', as it is used for healing practices, is now finding correlatives in Western medicine. Much like 'pranja' was translated into 'chi' in the past, and with it took on cultural symbolism that pranja didn't have. Same goes for the crossover from chi to ki in Japan. Now in the West, we are using our matrix through which to explain how these exercises, mind techniques, and modalities like acupuncture can benefit people. In the end, 'chi' is just a term used to explain the why of how this stuff works. Now we are using Western terms to explain it. But either way, was is interesting to me, and actually useful, more than 'debunking' "supersitous beliefs" like some Maoist bully, is that much of these things DO work. Whether it's from the 'placebo' effect, or vague references to endorphins somehow being triggered, or even more vague allusions to it being"psychological", doesn't really change the fact that so much of these practices do work as they were intended: to cure an ailment, be it of the mind, or body.

The fact that they do work also undermines your earlier statement that these people had total ignorance as to physiology or anatomy...they obviously knew something if you yourself have benefited from the use of acupuncture (given to you by a medical doctor).

Further, you have yet to actually explain how needles stuck into someones body actually triggers the endorphines, and how that creates a healing response. Or are you purposely keeping it 'mysterious.'

For that matter, this word 'mysterious' has been thrown about far too much in this thread as a negative. So often thing are mysterious to us due to igorance, not because the thing itself is intrinsically 'mysterious'. If I took a random person off the street and sat them in a chair in a University lecture hall where a graduate level seminar in chemistry was occuring, I dare say they would find that fairly 'mysterious'.

I await you scientific explanation as to what exactly occurs when the needles are poked into someones skin, and how the endorphins are acted upon by that.

You're constant willingness to put words in my mouth rather than speak to ANY part of the post, to me, underlines your inablility to contribute anything of substance to this thread beyond hurling rhetorical slurs that I am supersitous. However, you're inability to actually approach this topic in a non-personal way speaks only to your close mindedness regarding it. How very unscientific.

--Chris

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."--Basho

Quote: Although I don't know about the truly amazing part, I've posted evidence that suggests that this a major body has conducted thorough research, controlling for the placebo effect, and found that there is something to acupuncture.

If I am wrong about that, please post a link to the study.

As mentioned in the WHO review controlling for placebo can be difficult. It has though been found in studies that have used sham acupuncture as a placebo that no significant difference exists between 'real and sham' accupuncture. My 2 previous links contained studies making this point. I can get the particular links if you could not see them.

Quote:

Quote:Difference is that mainstream medicines have been shown to work even without placebo.

You've lost me here. If studies show that certain mainstream medicines are dependent on the placebo effect (such as anti-depressants) then how is what you've said accurate?

I too am no doctor! And I don't know about anti depressants. The difference is that if certain anti depressants are found not to be effective, this will be verified by research and either pulled or kept depending on results. I imagine there is research into this going on now. This is more of an example of things slipping through the net rather than being a general rule.Also doctors may use the placebo effect to some extent, it was on the news over here about people going to the doctor with a cold and demanding antibiotics, which are ineffective against virus, and doctors giving them to patients.

Quote: I read it a lot of that site since you posted it. Some interesting information, some fairly common info, and some that I downright disagree with. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere where he addressed the W.H.O. study, but rather another specifically on back pain.

Appologise. I ment for you only to read the article on on the page linked which was specifically an overview of studies in to accupuncture. This was not in refference to WHO, but gave a good (IMO) discussion on the effectiveness of accupuncture. I'd be interested to know what you disagreed with in that particular article?

Oldman:

Quote: Would you gentlemen consider physical therapy and or psychotherapy methods of healing?

Yes. Or perhaps more accurately, methods to promote healing. I'm being overcautious as I'm expecting a 'Gotcha' reply Lol!!

Ames:

Quote: What I mean is, what specifically is happening to the body that needles stuck at SPECIFIC MERIDIAN LINES create an endorphin response?

But Ames, Sham accupuncture has shown that subjects who undergo sham accupunture, i.e. where neddles were stuck in at so called non-meridian points showed the same response as those undergoing regular accupuncture. Surely this is damning evidence to those who belive the response is due to flow of ki in the meridians being linked to the benifits of accupunture.Whats more, the effect has also been shown in cases where the subject only thought they'd had a needle put in them. Is this not massive evidence in support of placebo. Is this not evidence against the chi hypothesis?Again links to these studies should be in the previous link provided.Another problem is where are the meridians? Things need to get ever more inventive to support the chi hypothesis, when results can be explained through placebo.

Quote: In the end, 'chi' is just a term used to explain the why of how this stuff works. Now we are using Western terms to explain it. But either way, was is interesting to me, and actually useful, more than 'debunking' "supersitous beliefs" like some Maoist bully

I disagree with you here. If the treatment is legitamate beyond placebo then it could be a very useful treatment. If we are to utilise it for medical purposes surely we should understand it. If that means pointing out parts (or all) of it is 'bunk' then how can that be a bad thing?What other thousand year old practice has not been found wanting in some area, or found not to be improved upon. let alone still be useful.

Quote:...is that much of these things DO work. Whether it's from the 'placebo' effect, or vague references to endorphins somehow being triggered, or even more vague allusions to it being"psychological", doesn't really change the fact that so much of these practices do work as they were intended: to cure an ailment, be it of the mind, or body.

The fact that they do work also undermines your earlier statement that these people had total ignorance as to physiology or anatomy...they obviously knew something if you yourself have benefited from the use of acupuncture (given to you by a medical doctor).

Disagree again here. Through placebo effect, witch doctors can 'cure' ailments, does not mean that they have an understanding of physiology or anatomy. I am not saying that the chinese did not know anything about anat&phys., but your arguement here is not logical.

Quote: Further, you have yet to actually explain how needles stuck into someones body actually triggers the endorphines, and how that creates a healing response. Or are you purposely keeping it 'mysterious.'

You will not accept placebo as an answer.

Quote: If I took a random person off the street and sat them in a chair in a University lecture hall where a graduate level seminar in chemistry was occuring, I dare say they would find that fairly 'mysterious'.

But you could explain chemestry with strong evidence to back up each and every claim made.

"I await you scientific explanation as to what exactly occurs when the needles are poked (or not poked) into someones skin( at meridians or not at meridians), and how the endorphins are acted upon by that."

Quote: My 2 previous links contained studies making this point. I can get the particular links if you could not see them.

I read them, and I think they do make a good point regarding the effect of placebo. However, I don't take that as an indebtment of acupuncture, just as I don't take those studies that showed the placebo effect occuring for sham surgeries as an overall indictment of surgery itself.

Quote: And I don't know about anti depressants. The difference is that if certain anti depressants are found not to be effective, this will be verified by research and either pulled or kept depending on results. I imagine there is research into this going on now. This is more of an example of things slipping through the net rather than being a general rule.

That site you linked me too has some good articles on this subject as well. The thing about this is at this point most doctors are still prescribing anti-depressents, even though it has been proven that a placebo works just as well.

Quote:Also doctors may use the placebo effect to some extent, it was on the news over here about people going to the doctor with a cold and demanding antibiotics, which are ineffective against virus, and doctors giving them to patients.

So the placebo effect also plays a major role in modern medicine, which is why I don't see it as an indictment against acupuncture that placebo may play a role in certain uses of it.

Quote:Appologise. I ment for you only to read the article on on the page linked which was specifically an overview of studies in to accupuncture.

Don't apologise, it's an interesting site. Thanks for the link.

Quote:This was not in refference to WHO, but gave a good (IMO) discussion on the effectiveness of accupuncture.

See that's where I disagree, because the W.H.O study is the biggest one done so far on the effects of acupuncture, with the least amount of problems in the study itself. The other studies, as you have pointed out, are pretty flawed, which is why I'm speaking of the W.H.O. one. Which also showed me, who didn't believe in the efficacy of acupuncture at the time, that maybe there was something to it, because the W.H.O is a pretty reputable organization and doesn't tend to go with quackery.

Quote:But Ames, Sham accupuncture has shown that subjects who undergo sham accupunture, i.e. where neddles were stuck in at so called non-meridian points showed the same response as those undergoing regular accupuncture.

Particular studies did, yes. As I said, I think the placebo effect is powerful, and many, many modalities in health care seem to be effected by it--not just acupuncture. But the W.H.O study, which was the largest and most well funded, found this not to be the case in ALL acupuncture 'remedies'--though did find it played a role in some.

Quote:Whats more, the effect has also been shown in cases where the subject only thought they'd had a needle put in them. Is this not massive evidence in support of placebo. Is this not evidence against the chi hypothesis?

Again, to me it is evidence that the placebo plays a large role in some acupuncture therapies. The thing is, that there are other studies which say, as Barad alluded to, that some acupuncture treatments create a endorphin response in the body. The thing is, and I could very well be wrong about this, but this is what I have read on the subject, no one is quite sure as the HOW or WHY the endorphins are triggered. Placebo is one possibility, but, again, studies which controlled for the placebo found this to not always be the case.

Quote: Things need to get ever more inventive to support the chi hypothesis, when results can be explained through placebo.

I totally agree with you. I think the tradional chi hypothesis is pretty outdated at this point, and I'm glad that these modalities are being put into newer terminology. Certainly it helps me understand it better.

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."--Basho