The best solution is a complete redesign here but I don't see that happening until somebody gets hurt baad.. which is when we probably just loose the course. So I'm hoping nobody gets hurt in the next 35 years while I'm playing..

Planting trees by the dead trees on hole 12 would be really smart. The dead Maples would help protect the trees for a couple of years until they fell.. Otherwise that is going to be a pretty easy hole soon.

I thought that a redesign would've been the best option for Downriver too. There is a lot of things you could do with that land if people would let it just happen. I don't know who to point fingers at on this one since there are many people on both sides of the fence.

The hole that I have the most problem with is 7 and 8. I have been almost killed on 7's teepad more than I can count.

"Honest work is for the downtrodden and the Polish"
Cleveland Brown

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I thought that a redesign would've been the best option for Downriver too. There is a lot of things you could do with that land if people would let it just happen. I don't know who to point fingers at on this one since there are many people on both sides of the fence.

The hole that I have the most problem with is 7 and 8. I have been almost killed on 7's teepad more than I can count.

I have heard a couple people toss around the idea of switching 7's tee with 8's basket.
Not my idea but it seems like it would help bypass multiple issues by removing the crossing fairways and reducing the erosion near 8's current pin.

I think what it really comes down to is that everyone has ideas they want included rather than giving control to an individual or small group committee with a broad understanding of the game and it's skill-sets.

If the club were to work together they develop a legitimate design plan and implement it over a 1-3 year period, they could work toward a common goal and accomplish some amazing results.

Currently we have new groups constantly tinkering with a revolving and inconsistent set of goals in mind.
I have a feeling this accounts for the drastically different perspectives on the course development process.

When a ball dreams, it dreams it's a Frisbee.

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7 and 8 is dangerous. I see the best move being moving 7's teepad forward or moving it up next to the bottom of the hill of hole 8. Putting the tee of 7 where 8's basket is makes the hole a routeless non risk reward par 3.5. A hole that would work but would not separate skill level in an appropriate, measureable, consistent design. There would be no preferred shot other than to lay up. make an upshot and take a 3. It would also still be in danger of people throwing off of 8. The hole as it stands has quite a bit of luck. involved to get a 2 but it is gettable. During the DRO I took a flippy wraith RBH and threw it 2/3 of the way down the fairway and made my up and got 3 3's. It was birdied a couple times and there were many 4's and a few 5's. The proposed change would eliminate the 2 and cause players to throw safe drives which would increase the number of 3's and decrease the number of 4's and eliminate most 5's. These changes will create a smaller scoring swing and less separation of scores. Making a boring hole basically. Similar to hole 2 at the DRO except without any birdies at all.

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7 and 8 is dangerous. I see the best move being moving 7's teepad forward or moving it up next to the bottom of the hill of hole 8. Putting the tee of 7 where 8's basket is makes the hole a routeless non risk reward par 3.5. A hole that would work but would not separate skill level in an appropriate, measureable, consistent design. There would be no preferred shot other than to lay up. make an upshot and take a 3. It would also still be in danger of people throwing off of 8. The hole as it stands has quite a bit of luck. involved to get a 2 but it is gettable. During the DRO I took a flippy wraith RBH and threw it 2/3 of the way down the fairway and made my up and got 3 3's. It was birdied a couple times and there were many 4's and a few 5's. The proposed change would eliminate the 2 and cause players to throw safe drives which would increase the number of 3's and decrease the number of 4's and eliminate most 5's. These changes will create a smaller scoring swing and less separation of scores. Making a boring hole basically. Similar to hole 2 at the DRO except without any birdies at all.

You are completely correct in your reasoning about #7...
thanx for the explanation rather than just saying it didn't work, out of hand.

Moving the tee up as you suggest could definitely increase the number of birdies (depending on the position) or could make the hole a much more technical shot, keeping much of the scoring range while limiting the distance and danger.

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You are completely correct in your reasoning about #7...
thanx for the explanation rather than just saying it didn't work, out of hand.

Moving the tee up as you suggest could definitely increase the number of birdies (depending on the position) or could make the hole a much more technical shot, keeping much of the scoring range while limiting the distance and danger.

I would love to see the locations you have in mind.

As for #8, it would open up that entire area...

other ideas anyone?

If we make these changes can we make 6 a par four or put hole 8 back?

I want to put a mando on hole 6 to make it a righty only hole.. Plenty of lefty shots at DR

Putting the tee of 7 where 8's basket is makes the hole a routeless non risk reward par 3.5. A hole that would work but would not separate skill level in an appropriate, measureable, consistent design. There would be no preferred shot other than to lay up. make an upshot and take a 3.

First, the current hole is routeless. 15 foot gaps at over 200 feet, where being off your line by 2 feet could send you off a tree into the river. If you look from behind 8's where the teepad would be, you can see a very clearly defined 30 footish gap to aim a righty hyzer safe shot for those with less than 450' of power (99.9% of us) or a lefty/sidearm distance route which can result in birdy for those with 400+ feet of power (1% of us, or more for tourney players). A righty with enough power to throw the hyzer to the log can grab more consistent deuces on this hole than the current hole because the route is a LOT less random.

There would also be a very risky RHBH turnover route that could produce 2's, but its tight and random. But those wanting to take the risk could reap the reward.

The proposed change would eliminate the 2 and cause players to throw safe drives which would increase the number of 3's and decrease the number of 4's and eliminate most 5's. These changes will create a smaller scoring swing and less separation of scores. Making a boring hole basically. Similar to hole 2 at the DRO except without any birdies at all.

2's would not be eliminated for top players, and those are the only players that would not consider this a par 4. If you wanted to make this a true par 4, then moving the pin back and down some (not far enough for high water to infringe on the green) then you could. I believe we have a bit of room to move back there, even though its state land.

I highly doubt this would result in more 3's, because the line of your first drive is more important. You want to avoid the hill on the right a lot more, so you can't turn over (or fade out as a lefty) nearly as much as the current hole without being punished.

I think it would reduce the 5's, but that is because you would have a lot less random kicks into the woods or river due to the better defined line. Scoring would be based more on skill than luck.

It wouldn't be perfect but it is better than the current hole and would be a lot better than yet another boring birdie hole at DR, which is what a hole with the tee at the base of the hill would be.

As for hole 11, your claims of a safety difference between the teepad on the road and the one to the right are greatly exaggerated. Neither one is very safe, nor is either one terribly unsafe. The difference is probably negligible.

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I want to put a mando on hole 6 to make it a righty only hole.. Plenty of lefty shots at DR

I believe the current proposal for a fix for 6/9 would be to move 9's pin closer to 6's current teepad to prevent shots into the river, and moving 6's teepad and pin up.

I'm fairly indifferent about what it would do to hole 9, since that's not a great hole to begin with. The approach is interesting, but that is all. With hole 6, I think that it would be trading a good hole for a good hole. It would be a nice gentle anhyzer for a righty (what I wanted hole 14 to be, but the pin was put way too far left) and a really tough hyzer hole for a lefty.

Keep in mind that this change is unlikely to happen, as hole 9 has minimal erosion problems. 6 and 9 will probably remains as they are.

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Jeremy, I agree with you for the most part on hole design/theory, but I think you're wrong on 7/8 and 11.

First, the current hole is routeless. 15 foot gaps at over 200 feet, where being off your line by 2 feet could send you off a tree into the river. If you look from behind 8's where the teepad would be, you can see a very clearly defined 30 footish gap to aim a righty hyzer safe shot for those with less than 450' of power (99.9% of us) or a lefty/sidearm distance route which can result in birdy for those with 400+ feet of power (1% of us, or more for tourney players). A righty with enough power to throw the hyzer to the log can grab more consistent deuces on this hole than the current hole because the route is a LOT less random.

There would also be a very risky RHBH turnover route that could produce 2's, but its tight and random. But those wanting to take the risk could reap the reward.

I agree that the current hole is not very good and that luck does determine alot of the scoring swings. I never proclaimed that the current hole as great. I think its adequate. There is a safe shot that I hit fairly consistently and you can go for it shot. The hole has gotten better since that tree snapped.
The RBH on the newly proposed teepad is a 440 hyzer BOMB. The Top players cannot consistently throw that shot through that last gap. Then hit the 40-50 foot putt. Don't know how much time you've spent playing with the top players but nobody would like that hole and there wouldn't be a good scoring variation.

If we can move the pin deeper than there could be something workable but I'm not sure. Need to look closer next time I'm out which won't be until next Tuesday at the earliest.

[QUOTE=Parks;96869]Nope. Look at the area like 30 feet behind 8's pin. If 8's pin is moved, this is a very safe place to be, in addition to having vision.

The hole as it stands has quite a bit of luck. involved to get a 2 but it is gettable.[/quote

Agreed 100%.

This also sounds really boring, with a silly safe shot and random kicks off trees that will kick and create 4s/5s. Having a high score differentiation based mostly on luck is not desirable at all.

2's would not be eliminated for top players, and those are the only players that would not consider this a par 4. If you wanted to make this a true par 4, then moving the pin back and down some (not far enough for high water to infringe on the green) then you could. I believe we have a bit of room to move back there, even though its state land.

I highly doubt this would result in more 3's, because the line of your first drive is more important. You want to avoid the hill on the right a lot more, so you can't turn over (or fade out as a lefty) nearly as much as the current hole without being punished.

I think it would reduce the 5's, but that is because you would have a lot less random kicks into the woods or river due to the better defined line. Scoring would be based more on skill than luck.

It wouldn't be perfect but it is better than the current hole and would be a lot better than yet another boring birdie hole at DR, which is what a hole with the tee at the base of the hill would be.

As for hole 11, your claims of a safety difference between the teepad on the road and the one to the right are greatly exaggerated. Neither one is very safe, nor is either one terribly unsafe. The difference is probably negligible.

Do you play golf at Downriver on the weekend?Anybody that can toss a disc 100 feet can hit somebody on hole 1 from 11 and not even know that they are over there.
From hole 16 30-40% of golfers can get to the tee. Most of those players know to yell Fore and you can see them throwing from the Old pad of 11. Those are facts, not exaggerations. Negligence was what was gonna cause an injury by course designers who do not carefully analyze what the most common mistakes a newbie golfer makes.
P.S. Heads up walking up hole 16's fairway.. Newbie RBH's will be bombing about 1/3 up the fairway

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Do you play golf at Downriver on the weekend?Anybody that can toss a disc 100 feet can hit somebody on hole 1 from 11 and not even know that they are over there.
From hole 16 30-40% of golfers can get to the tee. Most of those players know to yell Fore and you can see them throwing from the Old pad of 11. Those are facts, not exaggerations. Negligence was what was gonna cause an injury by course designers who do not carefully analyze what the most common mistakes a newbie golfer makes.
P.S. Heads up walking up hole 16's fairway.. Newbie RBH's will be bombing about 1/3 up the fairway

Those may or may not be exaggerations, but calling them facts is an... exaggeration. Everyone is playing this by ear and feel, and no one is doing studies to determine that "30-40%" of golfers can do any one thing.

Saying that anyone that can toss a disc 100 feet and hit someone on 1 is ridiculous, unless that person on 1 also threw their disc 100 feet to the left.

Even if that were the case, then moving the tee to the road would mean that anyone that can throw 120 feet could hit people on 1, and the fairway is angled more toward 1. How is that safer?

We're at our best when it's from our hips

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I can attest to the fact that I like to throw a long turnover drive on 11 to try and scoot in under the big shade tree for a deuce and have, more than once, turned it over a bit too much and wound up right at the pin for 1 (after yelling FORE, of course). I can also attest to the fact I have, more than once, been bombed on while putting on 1--from either teepad.

I think that qualifies as 'unsafe' at least, if not dangerous.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix

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First of all, I like the idea of shifting all the tees for 11, 1, and 17 to the right. So what about moving hole #8's tee to the bottom of the hill and throwing back towards the basket for 6 along the bottom of the hill (this was old hole 'something' I think...backwards)? This would eliminate most (if not all) crossfire from 7 and allow 7 to stay where it's at while at the same time eliminating a possible river disc shot and extra erosion to the hill that is climbed for the current tee for 8? It would also finish at a nice place to allow an easy crossover to the tee for hole 9.

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In terms of #7 -8, what about moving the tee pad of 7 BACK, Its already one of the most fun shots to try and launch a drive out, why not just make it harder and scoot it back into those trees on the right (if my memory serves). At least it would protect the people teeing off on 7 (kind of). You would just have to deal with walking out from the tee pad but i think that's better then worrying while teeing off.

One generation plants the trees while another gets the shade.

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First of all, I like the idea of shifting all the tees for 11, 1, and 17 to the right. So what about moving hole #8's tee to the bottom of the hill and throwing back towards the basket for 6 along the bottom of the hill (this was old hole 'something' I think...backwards)? This would eliminate most (if not all) crossfire from 7 and allow 7 to stay where it's at while at the same time eliminating a possible river disc shot and extra erosion to the hill that is climbed for the current tee for 8? It would also finish at a nice place to allow an easy crossover to the tee for hole 9.

I like these ideas as well

One generation plants the trees while another gets the shade.

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I've always been in favor of taking tee 6 and keeping it there, removing 6's basket, putting 6's basket down in old 8's basket position (the 21 hole layout) and making it a par 4. I would then keep hole 7 (current 7) in the exact same place. Remove hole 8 (erosion and pollution from plastic flying into the river) and put the pad for current 9 (which would be new 8) in the position of 8's current basket and making this a par 4 as well. The only issue being we'd have to design a new hole to fill the void of the hole that was removed. Of course, this is not going to happen. Still, an idea that could be worked into the mix...

"Honest work is for the downtrodden and the Polish"
Cleveland Brown

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to ALL of you putting up ideas for new tee pads and baskets .. keep them coming SOME of them JUST might work out right now i am working on erosion issues on hole #4 so i am writing theses down for later thoughts on the matter ..i understand that everyone would like a 21 hole golf course back and with the ideas that are here i see no reason (as of yet ) why some of these can not be put in place ... THIS IS WHAT MEMBER INPUT IS ABOUT! WOOHOO !!!