(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Thanks for sharing Mr. Jillette's emotional appeal. My response to Mr. Jillette, who is a much nicer person as an atheist than most anyone at TTA, would include the following:

Why is YOUR desire to rape and kill no one CORRECT morality? Why is the rapist operating with INCORRECT morality, since rape helps propagates the species? Why is SOCIETY sometimes demanding morality above SPECIES perpetuation. How do you have a society without a species to populate it?

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and without a god to hand them down, the rules of morality must necessarily be entirely arbitrary and you have lost your ability to condemn the rapist.

So what? The universe is still not under any obligation to be nice.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: The Torah code matters because it would be a superhuman effort to put it in there. We have to ask why someone(s) put this code in consistently across over 600,000 Hebrew letters without telling anyone it was in there...!

Why would one man make the superhuman effort to code the entirety of Dwarf Fortress without any assistance whatsoever?

Because Pascal's wager is certainly a compelling argument and one that no one, theist or otherwise, has ever pointed out the flaws with before.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Most of the people who've ever proselytized you or I are Christians. Christianity is the religion where God cares enough about you to show you the way. Go with that belief system.

Yes, but if I bet on Islam, I get seventy-two virgins in the deal.

I'd prefer seventy-two extremely experienced twentysomethings and some alcohol, I suppose, but as it's the only option available, I'll take what I can get.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Where are the Muslims who care enough about our soul to preach to us?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it." - A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner

Most of the people who've ever proselytized you or I are Christians. Christianity is the religion where God cares enough about you to show you the way. Go with that belief system. If the Qu'ran is true, atheists AND Christians are in a world of trouble. Where are the Muslims who care enough about our soul to preach to us? Based on my "wager" one would have to admit that if Jesus is the true God, one cannot meet Jesus and say, "Gosh, people never told me I was lost."

Muslims don't need to proselytize. They spread their religion "by the sword". If you're in a nation that they control, you are either Muslim or dead. I don't agree with those methods, but they seem to be pretty effective. I believe Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world -- with the possible exception of Mormonism. Now those are some real proselytizers -- Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. When someone knocks on my door to proselytize, I can guarantee it's one of those two. They outdo every other Christian denomination. So by your reasoning, they are the True Christians, right?

I think proselytization says nothing whatsoever about the truth or falsehood of a given religion. Muslims and religious Jews and Mormons and Catholics are every bit as devout, and every bit as certain that their religion is "true", as you are. I ask again: Why are you any less likely to be mistaken than they are? You didn't really answer the question. Proselytization has nothing to do with it.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Thanks for sharing Mr. Jillette's emotional appeal. My response to Mr. Jillette, who is a much nicer person as an atheist than most anyone at TTA, would include the following:

Why is YOUR desire to rape and kill no one CORRECT morality? Why is the rapist operating with INCORRECT morality, since rape helps propagates the species? Why is SOCIETY sometimes demanding morality above SPECIES perpetuation. How do you have a society without a species to populate it?

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and without a god to hand them down, the rules of morality must necessarily be entirely arbitrary and you have lost your ability to condemn the rapist.

So what? The universe is still not under any obligation to be nice.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: The Torah code matters because it would be a superhuman effort to put it in there. We have to ask why someone(s) put this code in consistently across over 600,000 Hebrew letters without telling anyone it was in there...!

Why would one man make the superhuman effort to code the entirety of Dwarf Fortress without any assistance whatsoever?

Because Pascal's wager is certainly a compelling argument and one that no one, theist or otherwise, has ever pointed out the flaws with before.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Most of the people who've ever proselytized you or I are Christians. Christianity is the religion where God cares enough about you to show you the way. Go with that belief system.

Yes, but if I bet on Islam, I get seventy-two virgins in the deal.

I'd prefer seventy-two extremely experienced twentysomethings and some alcohol, I suppose, but as it's the only option available, I'll take what I can get.

(26-08-2015 12:10 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Where are the Muslims who care enough about our soul to preach to us?

Are you making sincere replies or just joking? I honestly don't know because you keep saying things without addressing my arguments:

Quote:Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and without a god to hand them down, the rules of morality must necessarily be entirely arbitrary and you have lost your ability to condemn the rapist.

For the "sake of argument" is right because neither rational Christians nor rational atheists find human morality "arbitrary". It isn't arbitrary to say rape is wrong, it is a moral imperative. I'm asking whether you will agree that there are some absolute moral values.

Quote:So what? The universe is still not under any obligation to be nice.

Quite the contrary, actually, yes. The whole universe is tainted because of the Fall.

Quote:Why would one man make the superhuman effort to code the entirety of Dwarf Fortress without any assistance whatsoever?

Again, you are not attempting to address what I said. Perhaps you tacitly agree that I am right. Dwarf Fortress is a website where participants/viewers can see the results of the coding. The Bible codes, and there are more than just the one under discussion, were left unsigned. Why? Would you go to "superhuman" efforts without telling anyone what you did or why you did it? The Bible codes are therefore more than merely compelling or mysterious.

Quote:Yes, but if I bet on Islam, I get seventy-two virgins in the deal.

I'd prefer seventy-two extremely experienced twentysomethings and some alcohol, I suppose, but as it's the only option available, I'll take what I can get.

Being flippant is not helpful here, either, since Islam further teaches that these virgins will have their hymens perpetually re-intact and re-broken by the faithful, forever. This is considered pleasure for the men but as we know, is cruel to the women. Both your statement and the concepts here in Islam are degrading to women.

Again, telling me to Google one Muslim apologist does not address my point--that millions of Christians in America alone are actively pleading with others to trust in what Jesus Christ has done and still does for us. Your "quick Google search" would further reveal the truth of what I'm saying--that the Christian God above all other gods and religions proselytizes, and that Christians are motivated by something numinous--the very fact that atheists delight in pointing out the thousands of Christian sects belies the fact--each and all of these sects sees the lost state of atheists.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

Most of the people who've ever proselytized you or I are Christians. Christianity is the religion where God cares enough about you to show you the way. Go with that belief system. If the Qu'ran is true, atheists AND Christians are in a world of trouble. Where are the Muslims who care enough about our soul to preach to us? Based on my "wager" one would have to admit that if Jesus is the true God, one cannot meet Jesus and say, "Gosh, people never told me I was lost."

Muslims don't need to proselytize. They spread their religion "by the sword". If you're in a nation that they control, you are either Muslim or dead. I don't agree with those methods, but they seem to be pretty effective. I believe Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world -- with the possible exception of Mormonism. Now those are some real proselytizers -- Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. When someone knocks on my door to proselytize, I can guarantee it's one of those two. They outdo every other Christian denomination. So by your reasoning, they are the True Christians, right?

I think proselytization says nothing whatsoever about the truth or falsehood of a given religion. Muslims and religious Jews and Mormons and Catholics are every bit as devout, and every bit as certain that their religion is "true", as you are. I ask again: Why are you any less likely to be mistaken than they are? You didn't really answer the question. Proselytization has nothing to do with it.

I'm asking you to honestly consider the motivation behind proselytizing:

Are you unaware of why Muslims kill and rape to "proselytize"?

Are you unaware of why Mormons and JWs proselytize?

Are you unaware of why born agains proselytize?

Are you unaware of why most Catholics and adherents of other sects and religions do not proselytize?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

(26-08-2015 12:45 PM)Grasshopper Wrote: Muslims don't need to proselytize. They spread their religion "by the sword". If you're in a nation that they control, you are either Muslim or dead. I don't agree with those methods, but they seem to be pretty effective. I believe Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world -- with the possible exception of Mormonism. Now those are some real proselytizers -- Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. When someone knocks on my door to proselytize, I can guarantee it's one of those two. They outdo every other Christian denomination. So by your reasoning, they are the True Christians, right?

I think proselytization says nothing whatsoever about the truth or falsehood of a given religion. Muslims and religious Jews and Mormons and Catholics are every bit as devout, and every bit as certain that their religion is "true", as you are. I ask again: Why are you any less likely to be mistaken than they are? You didn't really answer the question. Proselytization has nothing to do with it.

I'm asking you to honestly consider the motivation behind proselytizing:

Are you unaware of why Muslims kill and rape to "proselytize"?

Are you unaware of why Mormons and JWs proselytize?

Are you unaware of why born agains proselytize?

Are you unaware of why most Catholics and adherents of other sects and religions do not proselytize?

The motivation behind proselytizing is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of a given set of religious beliefs. You keep dancing around my question: Why is Christianity (and specifically, "born again" Christianity) any more likely to be "true" than Islam or any other religion? The answer is not "proselytization" and it's not "we have a book" (they "have a book" too). They are all just as convinced that they are right as you are. What makes you special? I would prefer a rational justification -- "feels" don't carry much weight.

Are you unaware of why most Catholics and adherents of other sects and religions do not proselytize?

The motivation behind proselytizing is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of a given set of religious beliefs. You keep dancing around my question: Why is Christianity (and specifically, "born again" Christianity) any more likely to be "true" than Islam or any other religion? The answer is not "proselytization" and it's not "we have a book" (they "have a book" too). They are all just as convinced that they are right as you are. What makes you special? I would prefer a rational justification -- "feels" don't carry much weight.

I could go on to answer your question but first I would challenge your notion that:

Quote:The motivation behind proselytizing is irrelevant...

The motivation behind everything is relevant. God will judge motivations, not merely actions. And if you think not, I'm married, and can tell you, spouses judge motivations, not merely actions.

I not only read the Bible for myself as an adult, I was moved by those who proselytized me.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

Are you unaware of why most Catholics and adherents of other sects and religions do not proselytize?

The motivation behind proselytizing is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of a given set of religious beliefs. You keep dancing around my question: Why is Christianity (and specifically, "born again" Christianity) any more likely to be "true" than Islam or any other religion? The answer is not "proselytization" and it's not "we have a book" (they "have a book" too). They are all just as convinced that they are right as you are. What makes you special? I would prefer a rational justification -- "feels" don't carry much weight.

The motivation behind proselytizing is irrelevant to his question.
"Why are you any less likely to be mistaken than they are? You didn't really answer the question. Proselytization has nothing to do with it."

How about you actually address that?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.