I just got back from Indian Creek (Battle of the Bulge/Broken Tooth walls) and trying out my just-right rack (not too many cams at the crag, not too few).

I am starting a new thread because I realized the problem I am working out is not “the minimum number of cams for 99% of all routes” but rather “the right number of cams for 5.10a – 5.11c routes”

1. This is the range of route difficulty that most people climb at Indian Creek. 2. Almost everything 5.12a or greater is specifically sought out and, as such, the necessary gear can be brought along (specifically finger cracks with the need for lots of small gear). 3. The relatively few long off-widths (Keyhole Flake, SUV, Monster Truck, etc ) are also probably specifically sought out and if more than 3 #5 Friends & 3 #6 Friends are needed, this will be known in advance.

In addition to tape, scissors, helmet, harness, shoes/sox, water bottles:

?Big Bros? (I have never used them at IC & have never placed them either!)

The ropes/buckets weigh 11# each The OW cams weigh 6.5# The rest of the cams weigh 30.5#

This is manageable by 2 people. It is easily manageable by 3 people There are still more cams than we have ever used. This collection doers not lack any cam that we have ever needed. The Link Cams allow fewer total cams with the same depth of coverage for their range

Take 13 quickdraws if you take a break day at Mill Creek or Rifle. Any tower climb racks can be assembled from the above.

I will set off on my next trip in September with this rack and let everyone know what other cams/gear I leave off after evaluating the results of this trip.

If I were to tell you that I have 9 cams the size of a yellow alien, you'd know what I meant. If I said I have 4 yellow aliens, 1 pink WC Zero, one .5 friend, one yellow TCU, and two .4's you'd have to think about what I just said for a second.

See where I'm going here?

I'll also do you a huge IC favor sorting wise.

Figure out how many sizes of each thing you're carrying and clip them all together before tossing them in the bag. 8 yellow, check, toss. 4 3.5's check, toss, 7 .75's... dig through the pile until another turns up or ask someone if they have it. Trust me, this works.

I think you're set on gear. Don't assume that an average IC user only climbs 11c, just the average user at battle of the bulge.

It really depends on the route you are doing and how difficult it is for YOU. If you are doing a 150ft route that is fairly uniform (ie: Pente) and if that is near your limit, you will probably want quite a few cams. In the morning see what routes you are planning on climbing, throw a few extra in and leave what you don't need in the car.

While many of the routes I am working on are a bit harder, it is not unusual for me to take 8 or 9 of the same sized cam on a route.

I can't believe angry didn't kick you in the balls harder the first time.

A few things:

- You have way too much time on your hands - 22 times in two years? Really? Aren't there other places you'd like to climb? - After 22 trips to IC, I hope you're not still under the impression that most creek climbers don't climb harder than 5.11.

Thanks for your comments. 1. Most of the time my/our climbing plan doesn't survive the approach to the crag - taking extra/leaving what is not needed usually backfires as the actual routes climbed differ from the inital plan. 2. My whole thread was begun with the intent of NOT having to take 8 or 9 cams of each size to the crag as well as not having to start up Pente with 8 or 9 .5, .75 1 & 2/3 Camalots on your harness. As a married, middle-aged, male rock climber having 8 or 9 cams of each size is not an issue but the younger crowd that does not specialize in Indian Creek will not have a rack of this size. Also, even the experienced climbers/guides I have climbed with never make it through a day without needing one more of a certain size to make it up a route without running it out. I continue to find this an interesting question.

1. Why do you think he is called Angry? - Useful comments & a ball-kicking approach is his style. 2. I find the optimization of the size & composition of an IC rack an interesting problem - too many cams cost & weigh too much, too few leave a climber with runouts. 3. 22 trips to Indian Creek since 2005. 4. I also climb at Red River Gorge & Toulumne Meadows/Sierra east-side. Indian Creek is my favorite place to climb in the whole world. One of the few advantages of being a married, middled-aged rock climber is that I can climb wherever I want, as much as I want & IC really floats my boat! 5. My post is not aimed at the 5.12 IC climber - when I get to that level (if ever) I may have additional comments. My post is aimed at people who have not been to IC much. Thank you for your comments - they have allowed me to clarify my goals with this questions.

Myself, I am a later-middle aged (46 going on 47), fulltime scientist, I admit that I'm a weekend warrior (actually my words are gumbie), but when I am hiking into crags at the Creek, my load is pretty heavy, upwords on 9 of each size (except in hands since that is like a running belay), 2 ropes, water, dSLR + tripod, always forget food. 2 pairs of shoes.

Needing a lot of cams is the norm, especially as you go past the .11's. . On Ruby's Cafe, I take 8 0.4 BD C4's, and a couple of 0.3 BD C4's. Learning to Fly is about the same except only 1 0.3 BD C4 and 7-8 BD C4's. On the Optimator its just a quite of few cams from 0.3 to 0.75 BD C4's. Its just a fact of life at the Creek.

Whats the problem with the load. The approaches are pretty mellow in the big picture, even to the Wall.