This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the FAQ and RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate and remove the ads - it's free!

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

Originally Posted by tres borrachos

I said that the issue of where he was born was only important to people who oppose the idea of him being elected President. The people who plan to support him don't care, as long as it's confirmed that he's qualified.

In your statement, one presupposes the other. The interest in his birth is predicated on "only" those who oppose the "idea" of him becoming President.
Yes, that is a blanket statement concerning "only" those who oppose the "idea" of him becoming president, which is false.

Originally Posted by tres borrachos

Cruz had dual citizenship. His mother was an American citizen, and his father was a Cuban refugee. Cruz was raised and educated in the United States. And he was a citizen of the United States from birth. He got Canadian citizenship because Canada grants citizenship to people born there. There isn't any reason to think he has allegiance to Canada. His parents left there when he was 4 years old.

He was a Canadian and was born owing Canadian allegiance.
We are talking about his condition at birth. It doesn't matter that he later renounced that allegiance/citizenship. He was born with it.

But more to the point.
No Constitutional citizenship was conferred upon Cruz at birth or later.
Being a "natural born citizen" is a Constitutional requirement and depends solely on what the framers meant by that.
No Statute (law) or regulation can confer that upon him. His citizenship is, and was, by Statute only.

The Supreme Court already recognized that there are two possible categories that fit within the natural born citizenship clause.
One of which there is no doubt that it applies, which was those born of citizen parents on US soil.

At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.

But there are doubts if the other category applies, which was those born on US soil regardless of the parents citizenship.

Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.

Both the above require being born on our soil, neither of which Cruz falls into.

Originally Posted by tres borrachos

There are a lot of reasons to not like Cruz. This isn't one of them.

It isn't a matter of like. It is a mater of whether he meets the criteria of natural born citizen, which he clearly is not.

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

Clearly, he prides himself on being the forums' foremost legal authority on America birth rights. If that's what give him his hardcore jollies, so be it. Regardless of the size of his ego,

Wow. The audacity of some people.
You have pages upon pages of posts on this subject, some far more lengthy than what I posted, and you have argued as confidently as I do, yet here you are now trying to cast aspersions on someone else for doing exactly what you have done.
Truly ****en sad. That is called being hypocritical.
Wrongly focusing on the individual and not the topic just confirms that you have no valid argument.

I discovered a previous reply you made years ago that clearly confirms this is nothing more than an emotional issue for you and not one born of logic.

What is even more sad is that your arguments are wrong, which you have to know. Yet argue away as if they are not.

Once one understands that the Constitution is not beholden to any Statute they should then know that no law has any authority in this argument.
But obviously not you, as you continually make such false arguments.

The only thing that matters is what the Founders meant by natural born citizen.

Originally Posted by Objective Voice

I'm more than willing to let the Supreme Court or Congress define who is and is not a natural-born U.S. citizen should either body ever formally take up the issue.

Willing? No. You will be resigned to accede to their decision as legal authority on the issue, just as everyone else would.

Originally Posted by Objective Voice

And Secton 1409(c), "Born out of wedlock":

So, just to clarify the matter, does anyone know if his parents were, in fact, married at the time of his birth OR if his mother lived in the U.S. for at least 5-years prior to his birth? I'd hate to see this country go through the same birther crap all over again.

See. Here you are doing it again. The Act applies to his being a citizen. Not a natural born citizen.
No law has any control over what the Constitution means.

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

Originally Posted by Excon

In your statement, one presupposes the other. The interest in his birth is predicated on "only" those who oppose the "idea" of him becoming President.
Yes, that is a blanket statement concerning "only" those who oppose the "idea" of him becoming president, which is false.

He was a Canadian and was born owing Canadian allegiance.
We are talking about his condition at birth. It doesn't matter that he later renounced that allegiance/citizenship. He was born with it.

But more to the point.
No Constitutional citizenship was conferred upon Cruz at birth or later.
Being a "natural born citizen" is a Constitutional requirement and depends solely on what the framers meant by that.
No Statute (law) or regulation can confer that upon him. His citizenship is, and was, by Statute only.

The Supreme Court already recognized that there are two possible categories that fit within the natural born citizenship clause.
One of which there is no doubt that it applies, which was those born of citizen parents on US soil.

At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.

But there are doubts if the other category applies, which was those born on US soil regardless of the parents citizenship.

Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.

Both the above require being born on our soil, neither of which Cruz falls into.

It isn't a matter of like. It is a mater of whether he meets the criteria of natural born citizen, which he clearly is not.

And a law was later passed giving those born there citizenship.

Matters not one bit to this argument.

He was born an American citizen, and he was granted Canadian citizenship because they grant citizenship to anyone born there. He left the country when he was 4 years old. If you think he has allegiance to Canada, then don't vote for him.

By the way, please show me all of the people who plan to or want to vote for him and are supporters who are having massive concerns about where he was born.

Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth," either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien ; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth." Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an "alien" required to go through the legal process of "naturalization" to become a U.S. citizen.[1]

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

He was born a Canadian Citizen.
Here is his one and only Birth Certificate.

Being born in another country to a US citizen, he was granted citizenship under our laws.
He is a citizen by statute. Not a natural born citizen.

He was born with the allegiance.
That is the condition of his birth.
Matters not one bit that he later renounced that citizenship.

Don't need to.
Your statement was a blanket statement as shown.

Nobody said he wasn't given Canadian citizenship at birth. I could deliver a child in Canada tomorrow and he's automatically granted citizenship. That doesn't prove he has allegiance to Canada.

So I guess by your last statement you can't show me any Cruz supporters who are worked up about or concerned with the fact he was born in Canada. In other words, the people who are concerned about Cruz's country of birth are either not going to vote for him anyway for any number of reasons, or they truly believe the birther nonsense about him and won't vote for him because of it. Like I said.

Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

He was born a Canadian Citizen.
Here is his one and only Birth Certificate.

Being born in another country to a US citizen, he was granted citizenship under our laws.
He is a citizen by statute. Not a natural born citizen.

He was born with the allegiance.
That is the condition of his birth.
Matters not one bit that he later renounced that citizenship.

Don't need to.
Your statement was a blanket statement as shown.

The people that would vote for Cruz despite the fact that he was born in Canada with Canadian citizenship, are probably that same crowd that had their knickers in a knot about Obama. Selective constitutional adherence.

Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

Originally Posted by Montecresto

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth," either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien ; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth." Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an "alien" required to go through the legal process of "naturalization" to become a U.S. citizen.[1]

Wrong.
The weight and legal authority says exactly the opposite.

The 14th Amendment construes who is a Citizen. Not a natural born citizen.

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.

A phrase denoting one of the requirements for becoming President or Vice-President of the United States. Anyone born after the adoption of the U.S. Constitution in 1787 must be a "natural born Citizen" of the United States to constitutionally fill the office of President or Vice-President. See U.S. Const. art. II, § 1; id. at amend. XII.

Some debate exists as to the meaning of this phrase. Consensus exists that anyone born on U.S. soil is a "natural born Citizen." One may also be a "natural born Citizen" if, despite a birth on foreign soil, U.S. citizenship immediately passes from the person's parents.