Perfect Home Theater (PHT) FLS-8 Silent Chassis

There are a number of factors to consider when searching for an HTPC chassis–size, heat dissipation, noise level, materials, and construction are just a few–and the Perfect Home Theater (PHT) FLS-8 performs incredibly well in all of these categories. But is it truly “perfect”? Read on to find out.

Specifications

If you are a regular on Missing Remote you may be thinking “I’ve seen this case before,” and you would be partially correct. The FLS-8 is the larger cousin to the Streacom FC5 that we reviewed back in 2011. Like that case, the PHT FLS-8 is a fanless chassis constructed entirely of aluminum, which keeps it fairly light (about 12lbs) for a case of its size, and also quite sturdy. Unlike the FC5, this chassis supports ATX motherboards in addition to Micro ATX and Mini ITX motherboards. There are a few other design improvements which we will cover later that make this a worthy successor to the FC5.

Material

Extruded and Sandblasted Aluminum in Silver or Black

Motherboard Compatibility

ATX, Micro ATX, Mini ITX

Drive Bays

2 x 3.5”

3 x 2.5”

Cooling

Passive Cooling System

Expansion Slots

2 x Full Height Expansion Slots (Riser Card Required)

I/O Ports

2 x Side Facing USB 3.0 (3.0 Cable Required)

Power Supply

160W or 150W PICO PSU with External AC/DC Adapter Recommended

Weight

5.4kg

Dimensions (L x W x H )

435mm x 319mm x 100mm

Packaging & Hardware

The PHT FLS-8 came well protected with the Perfect Home Theater branded box packed inside a standard brown shipping box. Unlike other cases, this meant the standard shipping box took the abuse and the branded box and chassis inside were in great shape. The chassis was well protected by Styrofoam padding and the accessory box was nestled within the Styrofoam as well.

The accessory box held the standard heat sink pipes, attachment plates, thermal compound, screws, etc. The optional short heat sink pipes and IR receiver kit which we received with the review unit were packed inside the case. The packages for the heat sink pipes are numbered, so it’s very important to keep them in their packaging until you are ready to install them. Like the FC5, a full user manual was not included, is very necessary, and is available here (PDF).

While the sandblasted aluminum on the FLS-8 makes for a beautiful finish that fits in nicely with any media rack or entertainment system, it shows rub marks very easily. Fortunately, those are quickly removed by rubbing lightly with a damp cloth; just be ready to do this any time you work on or move the unit. Our review chassis is black, so we cannot comment on whether the silver also shows rub marks this easily.

The four feet on the bottom and the dual row of vents on the top allow for ample air circulation and the sides of the unit are fins that work as radiators for the internal heat sinks. The two onboard USB 3.0 ports are located between these fins, which makes for a clean look. However, it can be tricky getting smaller USB devices, like Logitech’s unifying receivers, into and out of this space. We recommend using these ports for standard thumb drives, USB data cables, etc, and plugging anything smaller into the motherboard USB ports in the back. There are two add on slots on the back of the unit for expansion cards, but you’ll need a riser card to utilize this feature. There is also a hole for the internal power supply connection, and learning from our experience with the FC5, the PSU we tested this time reached without issue.

This is where the differences between the FLS-8 and FC5 become apparent, and where the FLS-8 separates itself from its predecessor. That said, our advice regarding unconventional chassis such as this still applies here. Do your research and choose your components carefully.

We strongly suggest downloading the user manual and paging through it before starting your build. Just getting the case open can be a chore without it. The secret is the screws holding the cover are located between the radiator fins on the sides of the case. The top of the case slides off easily once these are removed.

The key feature for building with this case is the metal bracket that secures up to two 3.5” and three 2.5” HDDs/SSDs and an optional slim slot-loading optical drive. This keeps the HDDs away from the motherboard and CPU and allows for more airflow around each component. The bracket tilts up for easier access to the interior of the case, including the connections for the two built-in USB 3.0 ports, the IR receiver, and the power button and LED. The IR receiver was an option, so we had to mount the control board using the stand-offs located next to the USB 3.0 control board. You’ll want to make sure all of these connections are installed and ready to go before you do anything else with your build. We made the mistake of not securing the IR controller before installing the motherboard, making it was a lot more difficult than it needed to be.

In addition to allowing access to the front panel connections, the 3.5” HDDs are installed on the underside of the bracket, and can only be accessed when it’s tilted up. The bracket is just wide enough to accommodate the drives, so it’s a very snug fit. We secured our HDD with the included thumb screws and it was onto the motherboard.

The FLS-8 has a number of pre-installed stand-offs to accommodate the motherboard of your choice. It also includes four smaller stand-offs that are attached to the back of the motherboard before you install it. They are necessary for attaching the CPU cooler to the motherboard later on. Once those are in place you can find the correct stand-offs for your motherboard and secure it to the chassis. Install the CPU and you are ready to add the passive cooling system.

The install manual suggests dry-fitting all of the cooling system components (CPU cooling pad, heat sink pipes, pipe brackets, etc.) before adding thermal compound or securing anything with screws, and we wholeheartedly agree. It can take some fussing with the different pieces to get them all lined up like you want, so you don’t want to do anything permanent until you’ve got it all figured out. Once it is laid out correctly, the trickiest task remaining is securing the brackets that hold the heat sink pipes against the side of the chassis. Like the USB ports and cover screws, the screws securing the brackets are threaded between the radiator fins. Those with large fingers may find it difficult to get them in place.

The rest of the install was a breeze, with the FLS-8 providing ample space to run the various cables and connectors. If you are using a slot-load optical drive, you’ll be happy to know that the eject button on the case is centered under the slot allowing for the use of an optical drive with either a left or right eject button. The build out in the FLS-8 required a bit of thought and some careful layout, but overall it was a smooth operation.

Testing & Performance

We put the PHT FLS-8 through its paces expecting solid performance similar to what we saw with the Streacom FC5 and were not disappointed. Once again, we installed Windows 7 and used Prime95 to stress the CPU and RTHDRIBL to stress the onboard GPU. Ambient temperature was 74 degrees Fahrenheit (~23 degrees Celsius).

CPU

SYSTEM

Idle

35C (95 F)

31C (87.8 F)

After 5 Mins

59C (138.2 F)

56C (132.8 F)

After 10 Mins

64C (147.2 F)

60C (140 F)

After 2 Hours

74C (165.2 F)

69C (156.2 F)

Max Temps

76C (168.8 F)

71C (159.8 F)

As with the Streacom FC5, the FLS-8 performed admirably with temperatures never reaching the limits of the processor. One caveat we need to add is this build was meant to create a budget friendly HTPC that does the basics well. We were aiming for solid HD video playback, music, and some light gaming (flash games and the like). We did not use a discrete video card or high-end processor that produce more heat, so we can only say again to think about what you want out of your system before purchasing a case and components. That said, if you’re building a setup for more intense gaming or graphics processing, you’ll probably want to consider cases with active cooling since the powerful video cards will have fans on them anyway.

Conclusion

So is the PHT FLS-8 the perfect HTPC case? In a word, no. There is no such thing as a perfect case, as each will have their own advantages and disadvantages. That said, the FLS-8 is a fantastic option, especially if you are looking for passive cooling and silent operation. The FLS-8 has a lot to love from the aluminum construction to the roomy interior, multiple motherboard options, and most of all – the silent operation. In a near silent room, the only thing we could hear was the HDD spin up, and that was only if we put our ears close to the unit. If you were watching a movie or listening to music, you would never notice it. Better still, you could add a SSD and not even have to worry about noise from platters spinning up.

There are things we did not like about the case, but they are relatively minor and/or easily fixed. The price point is going to be an issue for some at $420 (on sale at the time of this writing for $294 at PHT), but like the Streacom FC5, you are going to pay a premium for a chassis of this quality, built for a specific need (silent operation). The build is complicated enough that we wouldn’t recommend it to a first-timer, but not overly difficult if you read the manual. Being that it is so important, we would like to see the manual included with the case, rather than having to download it from the PHT website. The bright blue power LED will also be a concern for some, though you can always opt to leave it disconnected. The onboard USB 3.0 ports are a bit awkward to access, and at this price point it would be nice if a USB 3.0 control cable and IR control board were included with the case.

If you are looking for a silent HTPC rig, then you can’t go wrong with the FLS-8. You won’t be doing any hardcore gaming on it (although with Steam’s new streaming capabilities maybe you will), but playing HD movies, music, and television will not be an issue. There’s even room for a CableCARD/tuner using one of the expansion slots. While the price point is higher than many other cases out there, the features and performance of the FLS-8 make it a good value for the HTPC enthusiast who values solid construction and silent operation above all else.

Pros

100% silent operation

Outstanding construction and design

Supports multiple motherboard configurations using both AMD and Intel platforms

Expansion capabilities up to 5 HDDs/SSDs and 2 add-on cards

Cons

Price

Finish marks up easily

Complicated installation

Manual and USB 3.0 control cable not included

Perfect Home Theaterfor providing the PHT FLS-8 review unit, IR receiver, and short heat pipe kit used in this review.

……………………………..I been using Streacom cases for 3 years, and PHT is even a retailer of theirs. ………………[/quote] Today, 8/8/2014 our cooperation with Fabacom/Streacom has been terminated. We removed Streacom line from our offer as well. We will stay with Wesena and other OEM manufacturers in China.

OK, so this is clearly a Streacom FC10, 100% the same, same case, same box, same heatpipes, same IR, so why is it sold as Perfect who ?

I been using Streacom cases for 3 years, and PHT is even a retailer of theirs. Why on earth would I buy a re-bradged case?

I would much rather stick with Streacom, their support has been excellent and they are a global brand (just look where they are sold). Plus they also make their own PSU’s and accessories.

I just dont get it.

[/quote]

[quote=jerrymoss]

……………………………..I been using Streacom cases for 3 years, and PHT is even a retailer of theirs. ………………[/quote] Today, 8/8/2014 our cooperation with Fabacom/Streacom has been terminated. We removed Streacom line from our offer as well. We will stay with Wesena and other OEM manufacturers in China.

Streacom is just a brand, not manufacturer. BTW they are clear about it on their website.

Manufacturer can build their chassis under your name if you want to and if you order large quantity. It doesn’t meter if you order chassis, PSU, fans, ODDs etc. Factory will build their product under your brand.

As it happens, I do know what OEM means and also ODM, but patronizing questions aside, I went over to their website, I don’t think it says anywhere that they are not the manufacturer, but it would suggest they do design, but that’s not the point I was making.

The point I was trying to make, is why should I buy PHT when it’s the same as Streacom, and not just a little bit the same, but exactly the same, and a product they have been selling for some time. I know that many PC cases are made from the same factory and branded differently, but they always have some distinguishable changes to the design in some way, e.g. same frame but different front panel. I have never seen 2 different brands, in the same market/region successfully trying to sell exactly the same product. That’s the part I just don’t get. If as you say it’s the same manufacturer, then they too are making a mistake to sell the same product to 2 brands in the same region/market. Not only that, buy you also sell Streacom, so it makes it even stranger. The term conflict of interest comes to mind. You might think I’m having a dig at you, but I’m not, I am just pointing out that it would make more sense if you didn’t sell exactly the same product as an established global brand. Also, as a retailer, having your own brand is going to deter other brands from wanting to sell through you.

When I look at Streacom, and I look at PHT, I know which ‘Brand’ it makes more sense to buy. You can see that Streacom has really done their homework, product shots, good user guides, tons of extra information on choosing components, dedicated support, and they are global, so I have some confidence knowing they are not going to disappear tomorrow.

I have bought lots of cases like these over the years from different brands, and because they are niche products will low volumes, unfortunately the companies don’t survive long.

By the way, Apple is as you say ‘just a brand’, like it means nothing lol. Foxconn manufactures for lots of brands, but Apple do their homework on marketing and support. Whilst I am not a sucker for brands, nobody could argue that its not an important factor in making a purchasing decision.

Also, as a consumer, I’m all for choice, give me more products, give me more brands, but don’t give me the same product with a different sticker on the box, that’s not choice, that’s just noise.

The point I was trying to make, is why should I buy PHT when it’s the same as Streacom, and not just a little bit the same, but exactly the same, and a product they have been selling for some time.

[/quote]

Price. I did a quick search and it looks like the FC10 is $30-35 more than the FLS-8. There are different kinds of buyers around. Some are very price sensitive, others are not. Some place a lot of value to a recognizable brand, others do not. TBC, I do not mean to judge either group; just point out that this delta in assigning and realizing value exists.

[quote=jerrymoss]

I have never seen 2 different brands, in the same market/region successfully trying to sell exactly the same product. That’s the part I just don’t get. If as you say it’s the same manufacturer, then they too are making a mistake to sell the same product to 2 brands in the same region/market.

[/quote]

It actually happens a lot. The most obvious place to see it is in the small electronics market (just search on AMZN for USB hub).

[quote=jerrymoss]

Not only that, buy you also sell Streacom, so it makes it even stranger. The term conflict of interest comes to mind. You might think I’m having a dig at you, but I’m not, I am just pointing out that it would make more sense if you didn’t sell exactly the same product as an established global brand. Also, as a retailer, having your own brand is going to deter other brands from wanting to sell through you.

[/quote]

Monoprice? Amazon? Costco? Target? Every grocery store in the world? They all have “house” brands. Most of them resell the exact same thing as the branded goods at a lower price. This practice is so common because it allows for better market coverage (i.e. both price & brand conscious buyers are in your demographic).

[quote=jerrymoss]

When I look at Streacom, and I look at PHT, I know which ‘Brand’ it makes more sense to buy. You can see that Streacom has really done their homework, product shots, good user guides, tons of extra information on choosing components, dedicated support, and they are global, so I have some confidence knowing they are not going to disappear tomorrow.

I have bought lots of cases like these over the years from different brands, and because they are niche products will low volumes, unfortunately the companies don’t survive long.

[/quote]

No one buys an extended warranty for a spoon. I can understand this argument for expensive goods with a reasonable probability of failure (TV, car, etc.), but a PC chassis is what it is from the moment you unbox it until you recycle it. The touch points for continued vendor interaction are pretty limited past the first 30-60 days.

As it happens, I do know what OEM means and also ODM, but patronizing questions aside, I went over to their website, I don’t think it says anywhere that they are not the manufacturer, but it would suggest they do design, but that’s not the point I was making. [/quote]

They did NOT design FC5÷FC10.Wesena did it.They even have some patents.

[quote]The point I was trying to make, is why should I buy PHT when it’s the same as Streacom, and not just a little bit the same, but exactly the same, and a product they have been selling for some time. [/quote]

When you buy from Streacom you support European company and economy.When you buy from PHT you support American company and economy. Some people in the USA take it seriously, they want to buy “American”.

Of course, regardless where do you buy product from, you support Chinese company anyway.

If you are European, so you should support Europe.If you are American…..

[quote] ………………………………. I have never seen 2 different brands, in the same market/region successfully trying to sell exactly the same product. [/quote]

Actualy three.You can find the same chassis under PHT, Streacom and Wesena brand.

[quote]…………….. Not only that, buy you also sell Streacom, so it makes it even stranger. The term conflict of interest comes to mind. [/quote]

Correct.After discussion with Streacom’s owner last fall, we decided that I will not sell Streacom line anymore after I sell stock I have in the USA.

[quote] You might think I’m having a dig at you, but I’m not, I am just pointing out that it would make more sense if you didn’t sell exactly the same product as an established global brand. [/quote]

Where to start, OK, how about with price. I would gladly pay and extra $30 to know that I get something that is not only going to work only now, but in future. I am not sure how a case is the same a spoon, but last time I checked, new CPU sockets didn’t effect how I put food into my mouth. If a socked is changed or updated (which kind of happens a lot), I want to know I can get support in future, e.g. new heatpipes or CPU adapters. That goes for accessories too, the IR solutions have been super flaky and updates to the software are really important. I could give you more examples, but time has proven that if you buy cheap, you end up paying more somewhere else down the line. There are always exceptions, but as a general rule, someone cut a corner somewhere to get that cost down, and the consumer ends up paying for it down the line.

Yes, Amazon, Costco, Target, and they can do it because they have buying power and huge leverage against manufacturers, but no big brand would allow their company to OEM the same product and exactly same design under a house brand without expecting it to destroy their own sales and brand. From PHT comments, it seems to me that there is a different motivation behind doing this. I see “After discussion with Streacom’s owner last fall, we decided that I will not sell Streacom line anymore after I sell stock I have in the USA. ” and “It was my mistake. I trusted some people to much.”, which leads me to believe that this is a lot more to this story, perhaps bordering on personal rather than business. Closer to the truth could be that this is a direct consequence of PHT no longer selling Streacom. I guess if I reach out to Streacom they would have someone a very different viewpoint on this, with the truth as usual being somewhere in the middle.

I personally think the manufacturer is making a mistake on this, we are not talking some cheap cables or spoons that are being sold, they are premium cases, and selling them to two competing companies in the same region is still a mistake in my mind. I can’t say who designed what, but I don’t think for one second these products are designed by Chinese, they look European to me. You only have to look at all the Taiwanese case manufacturers to know what Asian design looks like. I don’t need to get into just how absurd patents can be and how many times they have been abused. Also, why only in the USA, nowhere else can I find these cases sold under different brands, it still does not add up to me. I might be too much of a conspiracy theorist, but that’s just the way my mind thinks.

As for support American company, erm, I am pretty sure the 6 other companies selling Streacom products in the USA are American, and I would rather my money go to Europe than directly to China. Unless you are going to open a manufacturing plant and create real jobs in the US (which is what should really be happening), then you shouldn’t pull that card out. It’s our fixation on cheap that has led to so many economic problems in the first place.

Feel free to pick apart my comments again, but the bottom line is that, I personally, right or wrong, don’t see the logic in the same case being sold this way. Anandtech covered the FC10 back in 2012 with a really in depth review, and 2 years later it’s being presented as a PHT product with ZERO differences, whist still being sold as Streacom product in the US and literally everywhere else in the world. Maybe its not the same case, maybe that $30 cut makes a difference somewhere, that would make sense to me. Heatpipes might be different, grade of AL might be different, who knows right. I have seen first-hand the dangers of buying goods from China, lead paint on kids toys anyone? It would also make complete sense if this was just a direct response to no longer selling Streacom, undercut them and take their market share, that I get. If that’s the case, then I still need a compelling reason to buy PHT over Streacom. Anyway, like I already said, I have a conspiracy theory mind, and I’m a huge fan of PC gear, so this has got me all riled up :p

Where to start, OK, how about with price. I would gladly pay and extra $30 to know that I get something that is not only going to work only now, but in future.

[/quote]

Well, like I stated clearly before, there are different kinds of buyers. It’s fine to pay extra for a brand if you derive value from it. That you realize value is the critical thing when you make a purchase. That said, it is important to recognize that other people have different, equally valid, preferences.

With that said (again). I don’t think your assertion is actually correct. There is no guarantee that as the ecosystem changes that $30 buys future compatibility. You could argue that buying from a larger company’s product brings a higher probability that the company will be around in the future, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to them retooling around new kit to make it work for you. TBC, it doesn’t mean they won’t provide a solution if demand exists.

[quote=jerrymoss]

I am not sure how a case is the same a spoon, but last time I checked, new CPU sockets didn’t effect how I put food into my mouth. If a socked is changed or updated (which kind of happens a lot), I want to know I can get support in future, e.g. new heatpipes or CPU adapters.

[/quote]

Obviously changes in the PC market will not affect how you eat, but did you honestly think that was the intent of the analogy?

The point was that the thing doesn’t materially change with time and use. Objects made of metal, that don’t move, don’t break unless you break them. A case purchased today will be fundamentally the same thing five years from now as it is now (just like a spoon). There is, therefore, little risk involved with long-term ownership.

[quote=jerrymoss]

That goes for accessories too, the IR solutions have been super flaky and updates to the software are really important.

[/quote]

It’s possible that Streacom is the only chassis OEM that designs and builds their own IR HW and writes the driver in house, but I think it’s more likely that they buy existing kit and throw it in there like everyone else. I’ve never dug into their solution so I can’t say for sure. I can say that every other vendor where I’ve done that, they didn’t (i.e it’s all vended). FWIW, I haven’t been happy with any chassis IR solution OOTB. IME, there are always unwelcome compromises (the important part is that it’s there so you can replace it with something workable if you want). TBF, I am very demanding in this area though. The only one I’ve been truely satified with was the one where I wrote my own interface for…

[quote=jerrymoss]

I could give you more examples, but time has proven that if you buy cheap, you end up paying more somewhere else down the line. There are always exceptions, but as a general rule, someone cut a corner somewhere to get that cost down, and the consumer ends up paying for it down the line.

[/quote]

I disagree with this assertion (which not surprisingly, is quite consistent with your buying preferences). There are certainly times when you get what you pay for, but there are also times when value shopping has greater return. If we were talking about a vast difference there might be something worth pursuing here, but there are there are lots of ways to cut end-user cost out of a product. The most obvious is to do more volume, but other include: lower marketing budget, economies of scale, better supply contracts, lower shipping costs (slower, or moving more product).

[quote=jerrymoss]

Yes, Amazon, Costco, Target, and they can do it because they have buying power and huge leverage against manufacturers, but no big brand would allow their company to OEM the same product and exactly same design under a house brand without expecting it to destroy their own sales and brand.

[/quote]

I would love to see the backing (i.e. market research) for this claim. For the most part these products appeal to different buyers, so unless the “huge manufacture” does something really stupid in the marketing of their “premium” product it won’t really matter. For those who value brand, the unbranded product will always be inferior.

[quote=jerrymoss]

I personally think the manufacturer is making a mistake on this, we are not talking some cheap cables or spoons that are being sold, they are premium cases, and selling them to two competing companies in the same region is still a mistake in my mind. I can’t say who designed what, but I don’t think for one second these products are designed by Chinese, they look European to me.

[/quote]

Do you really mean to state that Chinese people are not capable of designing premium products?

[quote=jerrymoss]

I personally, right or wrong, don’t see the logic in the same case being sold this way. Anandtech covered the FC10 back in 2012 with a really in depth review, and 2 years later it’s being presented as a PHT product with ZERO differences, whist still being sold as Streacom product in the US and literally everywhere else in the world.

[/quote]

You are allowed to believe whatever you want, but when you say those things out loud other people get a voice as well. That’s how public discussion works. If, after reading this review, you still want to buy a Streacom that’s great, I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. But I think there will also be a lot of people just as happy with this case though, it seems just as fantastic. That was certainly the impression I got when I read it.

hey jerry, no big conspiracy, just should get out more haha. i been working with factories in china for more than 25 years. this is normal here. you get a factory that oem a product for one company, then when they get greedy, they sell product out the back door to another company. even if its not 100% the same, they ‘borrow’ tooling and parts to make almost identical products which avoid IP protection. no way those designs are chinese, and it also explains why everything looks the same. unless pht spends money on design, the factory will just use the same everything. like i said, no big conspiracy, i’ve seen that happen so many times, and IP in china means nothing, its really hard to protect designs, you are at the mercy of the factory. its getting better now, but still very hard to enforce. at some point the rightful owner will block the product for being sold, maybe get an injuction in the US, but could take some time, the legal system here is slow, and burden of proof will be on owner.

Hi JerryThis place is not dedicated to business meters neither politics, so lets put it aside.This place is dedicated to equipment, so lets focus on equipment.According to reviewer:“Outstanding construction and design” so no corners cut here as you suggest.“the FLS-8 performed admirably with temperatures never reaching the limits of the processor”, so no corners cut on cooling system either.We didn’t engraved logo on cooling plates and we didn’t print manual, providing it in electronic version only.This is high quality product. Period.

Yeh Mike, I should get out more, but I have such a sweet home theater setup :p

And PHT, I never brought politics into this, you did :p

I asked a question about two identical products, and as a consumer I want to make an informed decision, that’s all. The answers I read have been defensive and just made me more curious. When you’re paying that much for a case, I think it’s only right to make sure you buy the right one.

FYI, I did reach out to Streacom via email over the weekend, and their reply was:

“Streacom has put a great deal of time and resource towards the design, development, testing, and marketing of our products. This is an undeniable fact that can be publicly researched. We will continue to focus on this and let consumers be the judge. You can expect to see some new products soon that will again affirm our commitment to innovation and bringing great products to market.

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, however the current level of infringement is reprehensible. We are in the process of legal action against various infringing parties and are therefore unable to directly comment further on this.”

Not exactly a definitive answer, but certainly raises some question. I guess we will have to stay tuned.

……………………………..I been using Streacom cases for 3 years, and PHT is even a retailer of theirs. ………………[/quote] Today, 8/8/2014 our cooperation with Fabacom/Streacom has been terminated. We removed Streacom line from our offer as well. We will stay with Wesena and other OEM manufacturers in China.

Well that is sad news. [/quote] Not really. They are other Streacom resellers in the USA.[quote] Does that include the newer products they showed at Computex this year, specifically the F12C? or is that going to be sold as Wesena or PHT also ?