79 comments:

I was interested that he used the word "enormity." He seems like a pretty intelligent person... intelligent enough to want to appear to have remorse and to work on our feelings and receive the argument that he should be given a second chance.

Wow, that's some fine shining cynicism right there. Not that you're wrong. But Ann, he's black. Isn't it racist of you to think so ill of him? Perhaps this should make you want to vote for someone else.

I don't care how smart this person is. He terrorized a region for a long time. If you read the comments (I'm here in DC, so I do) in the article, someone says he's played us before, he is probably just playing us again.

The Home Depot shooting happened just a couple of miles from my home. I've been there many times.

Moose, et al. are not to be blamed here. A major problem was too much information, and the one piece that people kept mentioning, the presence of a white van nearby, had them looking in the wrong places.

But Malvo sounds like a lot of guys (in addition to living nearby, I also do criminal defense work). Part of it is sincere contrition, part of it is rationalization and deflection.

It is a hard thing to do to admit that you are wrong, that you have done wrong. And some people are wholly incapable of making that admission, continuing to delude others and themselves, when those wrongs are mere trifles and insignificant (hint). It is especially hard to admit that you are "a monster."

But, again, part of it is rationalization in addition to contrition. And part of that rationalization is not mere deflection, but is accurate. Many, many times a regular everyday guy has been talked into doing some really bad things. More than once I've represented a guy who woke up a regular decent human being, but someone he thought was a friend talks him into how it would be cool to do a robbery or burglary or something like that, and they go along and do it. Sometimes they are helped to be talked into it by smoking pot or drinking or something like that. But they get caught and are arrested and they never make it back home, but spend the next several years in jail and prison instead. All too often a regular normal kid has thrown his life away allowing himself to get talked into doing bad things. They throw their lives away together with the lives of those they victimized.

But the key here is something that Malvo says at the end of the article --“Don’t allow myself or Muhammad to continue to make you a victim for the rest of your life,” Malvo said. “It isn’t worth it.”

He's right. Don't allow those who have victimized you to continue to make you a victim. Instead, let go of the anger, let go of the thirst for vengence, and forgive. Forgive, not because they necessarily deserve it -- perhaps the contrition is sincere, perhaps not -- forgive, not necessarily for their sake, but forgive for your sake. Forgive because in forgiveness is healing. Forgive because you can never run away from the pain, but in the forgiveness, you can transform the pain and destroy it.

Muhammad is gone — executed in 2009 for his crimes. Malvo, the scrawny teenager, the cold-blooded accomplice, is now 27.

Thank you, Writer, you know that's what I needed to know to understand who is which is who from who is he who did what to whom did what to whom so you tucked that 5 paragraphs down and sorted it just like that. He's sad. I recall when that long national nightmare was over. Come to find out, now he thinks things and feels things, who could have imagined? And the other guy the John Allen Religion of Peace guy is dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead, 10 deads one for each victim. Thanks for the memories.

I was interested that he used the word "enormity." He seems like a pretty intelligent person... intelligent enough to want to appear to have remorse and to work on our feelings and receive the argument that he should be given a second chance."

There is nothing like 10 years in prison to make you remorseful. I hope he has many more years to do so. There are useful things he could do in prison. Nathan Leopold had a genius IQ and served 33 years for murder and became a medical technician. Why not Malvo ?

... forgive, not necessarily for their sake, but forgive for your sake. Forgive because in forgiveness is healing. Forgive because you can never run away from the pain, but in the forgiveness, you can transform the pain and destroy it.

Said by a man who has never had some one close to them die at their side, someone that has never killed anyone himself. Weasel shit, nothing more.

Part of the "go and rot" is not talking to them anymore. They decided talking is useless before they took up their weapons and aimed them at random.

This is one of the places where Jesus is different from me. I read in a book. A book! A big fat book that was really hard to read, and my friends said, "you reading that? I wouldn't even try." At the end of that book it said before Jesus took up itinerant preaching around Galilee he traveled.

You never hear about that so naturally I found that part interesting. According to Urantia he actually ended up in Rome where he mightily impressed everyone he came into contact. Tutor to the one very lucky child of an Indian merchant, while in Rome he spent his time his engaging with people, and if you're a Christian you will recognize these Roman individuals moved by these anecdotes were talking directly person to person with God, among them a condemned prisoner.

Urantia search [condemned]

(1475.5) 133:4.12

To the condemned criminal he said at the last hour: “My brother, you have fallen on evil times. You lost your way; you became entangled in the meshes of crime. From talking to you, I well know you did not plan to do the thing which is about to cost you your temporal life. But you did do this evil, and your fellows have adjudged you guilty; they have determined that you shall die. You or I may not deny the state this right of self-defense in the manner of its own choosing. There seems to be no way of humanly escaping the penalty of your wrongdoing. Your fellows must judge you by what you did, but there is a Judge to whom you may appeal for forgiveness, and who will judge you by your real motives and better intentions. You need not fear to meet the judgment of God if your repentance is genuine and your faith sincere. The fact that your error carries with it the death penalty imposed by man does not prejudice the chance of your soul to obtain justice and enjoy mercy before the heavenly courts.”

That would 1475 page in the paper book

133rd Essay paper in that book.

The front of the book they talk about everything else, and that will put you right off the last 600 pages or so where they talk about Jesus. From childhood up. The front of the book is setup so that you understand the last, but the last is most accessible of all, the closest of all, but no, you cannot have that until you have the first so that you understand what you're given, which prevents the dessert of the last. So too bad for you. No dessert for you. All the little things you don't see in Sunday School but wish you did. What Jesus was like growing up. So that by the time you get to the crucifixion and resurrection you're plastered all over the place and pure mush struck dumb and useless in tears.

I see that Chip related this incident to 9/11, when he said, " I recall when that long national nightmare was over."

But here's the thing...

The DC sniper incidents were random to the twin towers falling, yet at the time, nearly everyone was connecting dots between the two, which for many Americans, exponentially increased their feeling of vulnerability.

... Until the facts said otherwise.

And ten plus years after 9/11?

This story is SADLY now about the criminal recalling one targeted man's fear as he realized he was shot.

Hey, it "resonates".

And I'm one son-of-a-bitch "empathic".

Otherwise I'd be crawling all over the author of this pile of rubbish article.

People who've gone through it say the way to go on is to forgive. Who am I to contradict that. Whether Malvo's purpose is self-serving or not he's managed to hit upon a truth that other people have also found.

Of course we don't say "Oh, we'll" and let him out of prison. There's a price for him to pay and he has to pay it. His recognition of his guilt is part of his repentance process. But, the living have to go on, and forgiving has been a tried and true way to do that.

Don't correct people on this, it's presumptuous. I did once then felt like poo. You'll hear people it use it for enormousness but lacking an evil element. It must be both big and bad. Really bad. Holocaust bad.

Tarzan and Freeman have the right of it. I'm glad he's found redemption. The Lord will always receive his children. But I am not the Lord. I can't look into his heart. I can only judge his deeds. And his deeds were so heinous, that he should not be allowed the chance to do them again. If he has truly repented, and understands his crime, he will also understand this. Otherwise, fuck him and feed him fish heads.

“I was a monster,” Malvo said. “If you look up the definition, that’s what a monster is. I was a ghoul. I was a thief. I stole people’s lives. I did someone else’s bidding just because they said so. . . . There is no rhyme or reason or sense.”

Awww, don't be so hard on yourself, kid. Haven't you heard? Doing "someone else’s bidding just because they said so" is no big deal. Lots of people are into that now - including the part about stealing lives - and nobody here is concerned, because it didn't happen with a rifle. Never forget:

Wyo sis, I'm making a few here, but let me stick with the most important point first.

The DC Sniper murders happened just weeks after the twin towers fell.

Americans EVERYWHERE felt vulnerable to unexpected terror.

Random serial shootings in Tennessee or Colorado or Florida may not have raised suspicion of more terror on our soil at the hands of international terrorists, but to many, random killings in and about our nation's capital were the "next step" in throwing America off balance at her POWER centers.

How does that saying go? "God may forgive you, but I won't!"--Sentiments which I'm sure many of his victim's family share. But those who counsel "forgiveness" for the victims are not necessarily wrong, although perhaps"forgiveness" is not the right word. Better, perhaps to counsel "out of sight, out of mind" and "move on," i.e., not obsessing on guys like Malvo and letting them screw up one's life any more than they already have--thus directing one's energies in a more positive way going forward. Let God spend his time worrying aboutguys like Malvo--neither his victims nor present-day society should waste the time..

It may be an important distinction. To me it's part of the nightmare. In fact, I still feel like we're in the nightmare. The world changed and nothing has been right since then. Every event is its own, but the cumulative effect for me is a world never at peace and always getting worse. And no one seems to be able to do anything about it. An opportunity to forgive couldn't hurt and might help on a personal level. As long as were not fooled into thinking the perpetrator doesn't have to face his own consequences.

In the late 70s a businessman with whom my firm did business with in Louisville and with whom I often spent time with at his establishment "interfacing/coordinating got free coffee from an AA meeting room down the hall. While killing time over coffee I would occasionally sit in on parts of sessions. Over time it slowly dawned on me that many of the "therapy" techniques AA used were THE VERY SAME ones which the Air Force had trained we aircrews to resist as potential shoot-down POWs, i.e., resistance to "brainwashing" techniques (e.g., requiring everyone to introduce themselves with the opening statement: "My name is---and I am an Alcoholic" vs the Communist version requiring all opening statements to be: "My name is___ and I am a Yankee Air Pirate and War Criminal;" provision of "helpful" individual "minders" by POW interrogators to aid in reading "lessons" vs AA urging one to select a helpful "buddy" to reinforce teachings, etc.)

A complete side-by-side comparative list of the parallel techniques is an eye-watering exercise..

PPS: For any ex or current USAF/USN pilots who might be reading my reply to Crack about resistance training I must state the techniques referenced were based on the Korean War model as the Vietnam war was still ongoing when I served and "official" training techniques/policy had not yet caught up with some of the more brutal Vietnamese techniques insofar as they were taught by Wing Intelligence Officers in units outside of SEA and not to include the more intensive (and realistic) special separate "Survival School" or SERE (Survival ,Evasion, Resistance, Escape) experience.

If you ever get the chance to hear Guy Gruters speak, do it. Capt. Gruters was a guest of the infamous Hanoi Hilton for several years after his plane was shot down in 1967. Nearly starved, the recipient of constant beatings and torture, witness to the horrific deaths of fellow American POWs in captivity.

His response to this hell on earth? How did he learn to survive, both during his imprisonment and after his release in 1973?

Forgiveness, as related in this story --As his friends were tortured and killed just feet away and he was unable to do anything to stop it, a maddening rage began to well up inside him that he said was the fruit of his pride.“Great anger started to grow in me,” he said. “And I didn’t know enough to stop it. I had never been angry at anybody in my life, really. But now I’m really angry. And it developed into a terrible hatred.” . . .When he first arrived at the prison camp, he thought that God could not be anywhere near a place filled with such evil.Later, instead of looking at the evil that surrounded him, he repented of the evil that was within him.“I just said the Act of Contrition over and over again,” Gruters said. “And I started saying the rosary even though I didn’t remember the mysteries.”This finally led him, grudgingly, to forgive his captors.“It took me at least three months before I could even form in my mind the words, ‘Lord, I forgive them,’ ” Gruters said. “But I didn’t mean it. But I kept saying it.“After six months, I would say, ‘Lord, I forgive them and I hope you get them to heaven. I understand that they’re your children. And I understand that you love them just like you love me. I’m with you on this. I want to love them. And I want to forgive them. I’m counting on you—obviously, I don’t have the strength.’ ”Such was the prayer of a humbled man.“God converted my heart from total pride to being able to see through the pride and overcome the hatred and to start praying,” Gruters said. “Once that happened then there was the chance of living through the experience.” . . .When Gruters forgave from his heart the brutal guards that seemed to be sent to him, he felt closer to God than at any other time in his life.“When I would pray for those people, I had this tremendous warmth in my heart. It was wonderful. It was great joy and peace,” he said. “The greatest joy and peace I’ve ever had in my life was in prison camp. Since I got back, … I’ve never had that time that I had with God up there.”

There is also available on-line this excellent talk he gave at Theology on Tap in Virginia (mp3 podcast here).

Look -- forgiveness is not always easy. In fact, some evils are so great that it is impossible for any human being to forgive them. But with grace, you can do the impossible. With grace, you can forgive the unforgivable. And then you can find peace and healing. The horror can be transformed and you can finally leave that Hell which is anger and resentment and despair.

Also, if you ever have the chance to read the book Left to Tell Immaculée Ilibagiza, do so. She survived the Rwandan genocide while the rest of her family was hacked to death, along with hundreds of thousands of others. She made a discovery during that experience, as she writes in the Introduction to her book. "It is a lesson that, in the midst of mass murder, taught me how to love those who hated and hunted me -- and how to forgive those who slaughtered my family."

Already the people in the Left pulling the strings in the media, academia, and legal system, having gotten rid of the death penalty for children under 18 and made impossible to impose in under 10 years if the killer fights it...

Are on to Phase II.

1. Eliminate death penalty all together.2. End the cruel and barbarous life without Parole sentence, starting with those under 18 when they did their butchery, and consider ending it for those over 18 as well.3. Lefties running California are attempting to end life, no parole as a budget saver. Plus, expand jail privileges with ObamaPhones and internet access to "speed their transition back into society".

All Lee Malvo needs to do is sit tight a few more years and Obama and his spiritual ilk are going to cut his sentence.

Bender ... while I can appreciate your expressed benevolence, I can't agree with it. You've selectively picked a Vietnam POW story, out of many, that supports benevolence per se.

I suggest you read the writings of Vice Admiral James Stockdale, and especially "Five Years to Freedom" by Col. James (Nick) Rowe, a POW escapee in RVN. Rowe went on to revise and update SERE training from WWII and Korean War models.

"Forgiving" is a means to forget, and may be the best course for many people. It is, however, presumptuous to presume one can "forgive" on behalf of others impacted by violence. One just does not have that right.

As for Malvo, he is just a "con" acting like a con. Nothing ever sounds so reformed, benevolent, and sweet as the writings of a still incarcerated con.

I've got some old Enron stock lying around that I'll sell you for a good price. They're worth every bit as much as Malvo's contrition.

Yes, Malvo is truly sorry about something...and that is that he got caught. He can't even get Step 3 & 4, of the de rigueur program in prison, right. That'd be *inventory* of personal responsibility and full acknowledgement. He's still laying it off on the influence of another.

I was interested that he used the word "enormity." He seems like a pretty intelligent person.

MadisonMan said...

He seems to understand (1) the influence that John Muhammad had on him and (2) the enormity of what he did...Is that progress?

Just wondering, have either of you (AA and/or MM) ever dealt with long term convicts before? They have nothing else to do every day all day all year every year except to focus on how to convince folks to let them out. Lifers get so good they could sell ice to Eskimos and make them think it ws a religious experience.

No, it is not progress. He still has not taken responsibility for his own actions. "Enormity"? Barely not bragging. Some book he read in the prison library told him words like that make him sound insightful and warm, so he uses it. Hell, he'll next be performing "Swan lake" if he thinks it will get him closer to the door.

This sub-human skid mark of a human being can be as remorseful as he wants. He needs to be dead in the worst way possible for what he and Muhammad did and even then death wouldn't be good enough. Why give their ideas sanction or purchase?