Pipes Hochuli wrote:i'm talking about their overall worth to the organization. if you want to argue their play on the ice....then be my guest.

Let's put it this way: If Ron Burkle came down and said to Mario and Shero, "You have to move either Crosby or Malkin, because I'm not paying for both", I can guarantee you which one would be out the door. And, he doesn't wear #87.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:you're still at it aren't you. what are you missing? if malkin was crosby, and crosby was malkin, then we'd still be in the same situation, the same talks would be going on.

but the fact of the matter is that they are different, in many ways.

i will say this one last time....crosby is the face of the penguins, the nhl, and our city. crosby does the pressers, commercials, and celebrity/charity events. whether you like it or not. it has nothing to do with malkin's talent, it has everything to do with where crosby came from and what he has shown so far. he is our captain, and the nhl's captain. malkin is an ELITE player, but he can barely speak english, and this gives him somewhat of an isolated/quiet personality. i know that personality has nothing to do with performance, but do you realize what the pens would lose if they lost crosby? they would lose a hell of a lot if they lost malkin, no matter what the return, but it wouldn't be quite the same. this discussion surely has nothing to do with crosby. malkin's name is being rumored, so deal with the speculation.

crosby is crosby, malkin is malkin. crosby is not malkin just like malkin is not crosby. we are certainly lucky to have them both, and will be lucky if we can keep them both, but you need to face the facts a little bit rather than just attacking speculations.

I couldn't care less about press conferences, thats a ridiculous premise. I am far more concerned about each of their contributions to the team. A case can be made for both as bein the best. I am basing my opinion on what goes on during actual play, not what happens in commercials or who's prettier, damn.

i'm talking about their overall worth to the organization. if you want to argue their play on the ice....then be my guest.

Most people do perceive it in the manner you do. I don't think thats necessarily the way to judge who's more valuable. The perception is that Sid is the face of the league. That doesnt necessarily mean however he's the best player in the world. It should mean that but that's debateable. Just because Sid talks every damn day doesn't mean he's more valuable to the team. I know thats a popular sentiment but that doesnt mean its true.

You perceive them as different, I see them as equals. Keeping one over the other because they are Canadian or speak the language is a pretty shallow way to look at it. I am glad we have both but to act as if Keeping Sid and letting Geno go is acceptable while the other way around isn't acceptable is rather ridiculous. I look forward to both bein here a long time and hope we can debate who is the better of the two for many years to come.

HeyNow71871929 wrote:I'm still wondering what the same people who are saying trading Malkin wouldn't be a bad thing would say if Crosby and Malkin were to replace roles.

Essentially, it would solve the issue just the same. In that case, Malkin would fully assume the #1 center spot, with, say, Kopitar, the definitive 2nd line center.

There, are you happy now?

So truthfully you'd trade Sid to the Kings in that proposed deal?

Sid is a little harder to grasp since he truly is the face of the team and the entire NHL. But, honestly, if the roles were reversed with Malkin already locked up, and Crosby looking for a possible huge payday and cap hit, unfortunately you may have to consider it. The NHL is a business these days and at times, hard decisions have to be made.

I understand where you are commin from but in either case wether it was Sid or Geno, I wouldnt move either. I view each as untouchable.

I will say this however, in my mind they are the only two who are untouchable on this team . I'd be reluctant to part with Staal or MAF but I wouldnt rule either out if I thought the trade made sense.

Well there is no question Malkin and Crosby are the top 2 priorities on this team. I just don't get how Crosby and AO are so worlds ahead of Malkin that those two can be considered untouchable but yet trading Malkin is not out of the realm of possibility. The mere fact a discussion about a possible Malkin trade is being discussed is absolutely absurd.

crosby and ovechkin are already signed, thus leading to the possibility of trading malkin because no one knows what his asking price will be. when he signs, then you can put it to rest.

[quote="crzymike]
I will say this however, in my mind they are the only two who are untouchable on this team . I'd be reluctant to part with Staal or MAF but I wouldnt rule either out if I thought the trade made sense.[/quote]
Now FLEURY! is untouchable! You don't wanna go there or I may have to go all HeyNow71872937663312 on yo @ss![/quote]I like MAF and I grant you he played very well this year but is he arguably the best goalie in the league? I dont think so. He had a few bad goals go in these playoffs. For the most part he was spectacular and single handedly won us game five. I think Lundqvist,Luongo,Brodeur,Nabokov and likely a couple others are a bit better or at least on par with him. I am not saying we can't win with MAF and overall he played well but I wouldn't view him as untouchable.[/quote]

Pipes Hochuli wrote:i'm talking about their overall worth to the organization. if you want to argue their play on the ice....then be my guest.

Let's put it this way: If Ron Burkle came down and said to Mario and Shero, "You have to move either Crosby or Malkin, because I'm not paying for both", I can guarantee you which one would be out the door. And, he doesn't wear #87.

I am sure you are correct but that doesnt mean its the right thing to do. PC wise it is but basically if Geno turns out to be the better of the two (which is possible) they'd likely opt for him to go anyhow. No question Geno's nationality has a lot to do with that. It shouldnt but it likely would.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:i'm talking about their overall worth to the organization. if you want to argue their play on the ice....then be my guest.

Let's put it this way: If Ron Burkle came down and said to Mario and Shero, "You have to move either Crosby or Malkin, because I'm not paying for both", I can guarantee you which one would be out the door. And, he doesn't wear #87.

I am sure you are correct but that doesnt mean its the right thing to do. PC wise it is but basically if Geno turns out to be the better of the two (which is possible) they'd likely opt for him to go anyhow. No question Geno's nationality has a lot to do with that. It shouldnt but it likely would.

I don't necessarily think it has to do with nationality, rather, public perception right now. Crosby is the NHL, Malkin is not. Heck, Ovechkin is more NHL than Malkin.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:you're still at it aren't you. what are you missing? if malkin was crosby, and crosby was malkin, then we'd still be in the same situation, the same talks would be going on.

but the fact of the matter is that they are different, in many ways.

i will say this one last time....crosby is the face of the penguins, the nhl, and our city. crosby does the pressers, commercials, and celebrity/charity events. whether you like it or not. it has nothing to do with malkin's talent, it has everything to do with where crosby came from and what he has shown so far. he is our captain, and the nhl's captain. malkin is an ELITE player, but he can barely speak english, and this gives him somewhat of an isolated/quiet personality. i know that personality has nothing to do with performance, but do you realize what the pens would lose if they lost crosby? they would lose a hell of a lot if they lost malkin, no matter what the return, but it wouldn't be quite the same. this discussion surely has nothing to do with crosby. malkin's name is being rumored, so deal with the speculation.

crosby is crosby, malkin is malkin. crosby is not malkin just like malkin is not crosby. we are certainly lucky to have them both, and will be lucky if we can keep them both, but you need to face the facts a little bit rather than just attacking speculations.

I couldn't care less about press conferences, thats a ridiculous premise. I am far more concerned about each of their contributions to the team. A case can be made for both as bein the best. I am basing my opinion on what goes on during actual play, not what happens in commercials or who's prettier, damn.

i'm talking about their overall worth to the organization. if you want to argue their play on the ice....then be my guest.

Most people do perceive it in the manner you do. I don't think thats necessarily the way to judge who's more valuable. The perception is that Sid is the face of the league. That doesnt necessarily mean however he's the best player in the world. It should mean that but that's debateable. Just because Sid talks every damn day doesn't mean he's more valuable to the team. I know thats a popular sentiment but that doesnt mean its true.

You perceive them as different, I see them as equals. Keeping one over the other because they are Canadian or speak the language is a pretty shallow way to look at it. I am glad we have both but to act as if Keeping Sid and letting Geno go is acceptable while the other way around isn't acceptable is rather ridiculous. I look forward to both bein here a long time and hope we can debate who is the better of the two for many years to come.

i can see what you're saying, but in terms of this franchise being terrible for years, and then with that one ping pong ball we got crosby. it does play a factor, at least for now while this team is still forming its identity. this team was built from the ashes with crosby as the guy who uplifted the pens. as Pitts mentioned, if the higher ups had to pick between the two [if you say, they are equals on the ice] then you keep the lockerroom, canadian language speaking guy. we were then lucky enough to get geno. equals on the ice? that could be argued, and has, for a very long time. but the fact of the matter is that sidney is signed and geno is not. when geno signs, then this will all be put to rest.

HeyNow71871929 wrote:I'm still wondering what the same people who are saying trading Malkin wouldn't be a bad thing would say if Crosby and Malkin were to replace roles.

Essentially, it would solve the issue just the same. In that case, Malkin would fully assume the #1 center spot, with, say, Kopitar, the definitive 2nd line center.

There, are you happy now?

So truthfully you'd trade Sid to the Kings in that proposed deal?

Sid is a little harder to grasp since he truly is the face of the team and the entire NHL. But, honestly, if the roles were reversed with Malkin already locked up, and Crosby looking for a possible huge payday and cap hit, unfortunately you may have to consider it. The NHL is a business these days and at times, hard decisions have to be made.

I understand where you are commin from but in either case wether it was Sid or Geno, I wouldnt move either. I view each as untouchable.

I will say this however, in my mind they are the only two who are untouchable on this team . I'd be reluctant to part with Staal or MAF but I wouldnt rule either out if I thought the trade made sense.

Well there is no question Malkin and Crosby are the top 2 priorities on this team. I just don't get how Crosby and AO are so worlds ahead of Malkin that those two can be considered untouchable but yet trading Malkin is not out of the realm of possibility. The mere fact a discussion about a possible Malkin trade is being discussed is absolutely absurd.

crosby and ovechkin are already signed, thus leading to the possibility of trading malkin because no one knows what his asking price will be. when he signs, then you can put it to rest.

I dont remember speculation last year at this time regarding trading Sid before he signed his deal. I dont mind the specualtion I am just pointing it out.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:i'm talking about their overall worth to the organization. if you want to argue their play on the ice....then be my guest.

Let's put it this way: If Ron Burkle came down and said to Mario and Shero, "You have to move either Crosby or Malkin, because I'm not paying for both", I can guarantee you which one would be out the door. And, he doesn't wear #87.

I am sure you are correct but that doesnt mean its the right thing to do. PC wise it is but basically if Geno turns out to be the better of the two (which is possible) they'd likely opt for him to go anyhow. No question Geno's nationality has a lot to do with that. It shouldnt but it likely would.

I don't necessarily think it has to do with nationality, rather, public perception right now. Crosby is the NHL, Malkin is not. Heck, Ovechkin is more NHL than Malkin.

Two reasons for that. 1. both Sid and AO have been in the league a year longer thus establishing themselves and with each being first overall that added to their fame. 2.Geno isnt fluent in English.

That however doesn't mean Geno should take a backseat to either. Their play on the ice should ultimately determine their pecking order, not the media or league perception.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:we werent in the cap situation that we are currently in, that's why.

If you want to look at it from that perspective why not trade Whit or Gonch or Staal or MAF? All I am suggesting is there are several players who could be moved. If one of them left, we could keep both Hossa and Geno.

Infact I am surprised no one else is bringing up Staal or Whit or Gonch or even MAF. Then we could at least keep two of the top 4 players in the world and still sign Hossa. That makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Last edited by crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:we werent in the cap situation that we are currently in, that's why.

If you want to look at it from that perspective why not trade Whit or Gonch or Staal or MAF? All I am suggesting is there are several players who could be moved. If one of them left, we could keep both Hossa and Geno.

trading gonch = no defensive anchor, no geno mentor, no defensive anchor on pp that plays 2 whole minutes. for his price he's worth his production.

trading whitney = interesting with letang and goligoski coming up, makes the most sense out of the 4.

trading staal = still a bargain at RFA contract, probably won't amount to as big of a contract when resigned, probably won't amount to as big of a return if traded.

trading MAF = young and plenty of promise as he's shown, he kept us in many games, leaves a huuuuuge hole in the roster, still could be kept at a decent price.

geno and hossa and crosby = an easy 27 mil minimum [rounding up].
geno/hossa will make twice the salary whitney does

Pipes Hochuli wrote:we werent in the cap situation that we are currently in, that's why.

If you want to look at it from that perspective why not trade Whit or Gonch or Staal or MAF? All I am suggesting is there are several players who could be moved. If one of them left, we could keep both Hossa and Geno.

trading gonch = no defensive anchor, no geno mentor, no defensive anchor on pp that plays 2 whole minutes. for his price he's worth his production.

trading whitney = interesting, with letang and goligoski coming up

trading staal = still a bargain at RFA contract, probably won't amount to as big of a contract when resigned, probably won't amount to as big of a return if traded.

trading MAF = young and plenty of promise as he's shown, he kept us in many games, leaves a huuuuuge hole in the roster, still could be kept at a decent price.

geno and hossa and crosby = an easy 27 mil minimum.

I'd give up any of those four if it ment we could keep those big ''three''. Whitney would be the most viable to move IMO with MAF bein the least. As far as 27 million per, Id say it would be closer to 25 but we'll see.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:we werent in the cap situation that we are currently in, that's why.

If you want to look at it from that perspective why not trade Whit or Gonch or Staal or MAF? All I am suggesting is there are several players who could be moved. If one of them left, we could keep both Hossa and Geno.

Infact I am surprised no one else is bringing up Staal or Whit or Gonch or even MAF. Then we could at least keep two of the top 4 players in the world and still sign Hossa. That makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Tooting my own horn...i've brought that up several times and only one thing i know for sure is i have no clue which way this goes and 7/1 is right around the corner.

FallenHero96 wrote:More fuel for the fire.... on that kings website link posted earlier, a guy says he heard EJ Hradek on XM radio say the rumor for Malkin is - Brown, Kopitar, and the 2nd overall pick in the draft.

FallenHero96 wrote:More fuel for the fire.... on that kings website link posted earlier, a guy says he heard EJ Hradek on XM radio say the rumor for Malkin is - Brown, Kopitar, and the 2nd overall pick in the draft.

Do I want to see Malkin go? No way. That said;

Let's assume, hypothetically speaking, this is the initial proposal made by Dean Lombardi. Anybody who has had the privledge to watch out of market games would be, at least somewhat, impressed with the offer of two first line talents and the #2 overall selection in a very deep top-end draft, for Malkin, one of the leagues premiere talents.

IMO, Ray Shero would turn down the original offer but might be inclined to make a counter proposal of; Malkin and Whitney for Kopitar, Brown, Jack Johnson, Thomas Hickey and the #2 overall pick.

This deal could work for both teams.

The Kings get their "face of the frachise" in Malkin coupled with Whitney, the power pkay quarterback they sorely lack.

FallenHero96 wrote:More fuel for the fire.... on that kings website link posted earlier, a guy says he heard EJ Hradek on XM radio say the rumor for Malkin is - Brown, Kopitar, and the 2nd overall pick in the draft.

Do I want to see Malkin go? No way. That said;

Let's assume, hypothetically speaking, this is the initial proposal made by Dean Lombardi. Anybody who has had the privledge to watch out of market games would be, at least somewhat, impressed with the offer of two first line talents and the #2 overall selection in a very deep top-end draft, for Malkin, one of the leagues premiere talents.

IMO, Ray Shero would turn down the original offer but might be inclined to make a counter proposal of; Malkin and Whitney for Kopitar, Brown, Jack Johnson, Thomas Hickey and the #2 overall pick.

This deal could work for both teams.

The Kings get their "face of the frachise" in Malkin coupled with Whitney, the power pkay quarterback they sorely lack.

You have to take money into consideration. That is why some people including myself are even thinking about the possibility of trading Malkin. You are very confused. Somehow you are turning people having the thought of trading Malkin because of his contract into people saying he sucks and isn't good. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

If Malkin accepts 8.7 million per year or even a little more, I would sign him for however many years he wants. If he wants 10 or 11 million then you have to entertain the thought of trading him in my opinion.

If Crosby hasn't already signed and Malkin was locked up long term for 8.7 million a year, then yes I would say you have to entertain trading an unsigned Crosby as well.

Again let me be perfectly clear, I think Malkin is one of the Top 3 players in the game and I think most other posters think the same. Him, Crosby and Ovechkin are all on the same level in my opinion.

HeyNow71871929 wrote:

Idoit40fans wrote:

HeyNow71871929 wrote:

Idoit40fans wrote:

HeyNow71871929 wrote:I'm still wondering what the same people who are saying trading Malkin wouldn't be a bad thing would say if Crosby and Malkin were to replace roles.

As I've said many times, I don't think he will or that he should be traded, but if by replace roles, you mean Malkin to already have the the 8.7 million a year contract with everyone expecting Crosby to be looking for 10 or 11 million, then absolutely people would be saying the exact same things about him.

No, I just mean the fact, switch roles, as in Malkin would not be looked at as a trade possibility and Crosby would.

Maybe I don't understand your scenario? Why would they be looking at trading a guy that they just locked up vs a guy that still needed signed. Its just as absurd as the trade Whitney so that you can re-sign Orpik argument.

I'm not even taking into consideration the money and contracts. I'm just saying what if Crosby was the one that was in the middle of all the trade talks and Evgeni Malkin wasn't. That is all. I just want to know how these same people would react to such a situation.

Pipes Hochuli wrote:we werent in the cap situation that we are currently in, that's why.

If you want to look at it from that perspective why not trade Whit or Gonch or Staal or MAF? All I am suggesting is there are several players who could be moved. If one of them left, we could keep both Hossa and Geno.

Infact I am surprised no one else is bringing up Staal or Whit or Gonch or even MAF. Then we could at least keep two of the top 4 players in the world and still sign Hossa. That makes a hell of a lot more sense.

But what are you going to put around them? It's fine and dandy to have those guys, but they will be taking up 50-55% of the cap room. It is difficult to build a competitve team using only 45-50% of the the cap space for the other 20 players.