Sorry, doesn't work. They assume the Bible is true because it says that it's true, then use it to prove their point, whilst saying that certain verses are more "right" than others when they contradict each other. Circular reasoning along with cherry picking are not arguments.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

I can see a whole new website coming:WWGHMBWhy Won't God Heall Marshall Brain?

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If you are a Christian, pray for Mr. Brain. Changing him into a lover of God would certainly be a miracle greater than replacing someone's legs.

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Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birdsMailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

That linked page starts off with the statement that the WWGHA website is anti-Christian. I disagree. It is not anti-Christian, it is anti-delusion, or pro-thinking.

The entirety of Christianity has been founded on apologetics. For it's entire existence, people have been "explaining" why Christianity is true. If it were actually true, very little explanation would be necessary, and very few people would challenge it. Christianity is apparently no mystery at all, as long as one believes it is true. But then again, for it's entire existence, Christianity has been a mystery revealed plainly to those who seek it, and wish it to be true.

It's truly a sad thing to see so many people wrapped up in what amounts to nothing more than mythology and superstition, belief in supernatural, odds, and heavy handed morals that make earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanoes look like pillow fights between six year olds.

The bottom line is this: all things that do not directly embrace Christianity, according to the site linked above, are anti-Christian. Pure non-sense.

The problem with the idea that the disciples made up the miracles of Jesus is that the hostile witnesses of the time (the Jewish religious leadership) never denied that those miracles took place, but attributed them to the work of Satan. In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt (obviously by the power of sorcery). If the miracles of Jesus had been made-up, the Jews would have denied they ever happened, rather than attribute them to the work of the devil.

Celsus wasn't a Jew and he lived circa 177 AD. This is Celsus' only reference to Egypt:

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Let's assume for a minute that he foretold his resurrection. Are you ignorant of the multitudes who have invented similar tales to lead simple minded hearers astray? It is said that Zamolxis, Pythagoras' servant, convinced the Scythians that he had risen from the dead... and what about Pythagoras himself in Italy! Or Rhampssinitus in Egypt.

And as to miracles:

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It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie, and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction.

His documentation is the Argumentum ad Nivem as I call the snow job. It is pseudodocumentation to slip in undocumented false statements.

I don't believe you "accidently" found that web site. The odds of that are enormous. In the billions. I think you went looking for WWGHA and decided you'd try and stir things up a bit here.

At least be honest about it. Why do you think lying is the best path? Why just tell a lie when you don't need to? Do you have any morals? Or do you just think everyone else is stupid and your lame email is clever?

Do you have any input to the topic or just want us to discuss it for you?

The common objection to his argument is that the Bible just made up this miracles, like all others it reports. Of course, this objection is offered without any proof of being correct. It is just assumed that the disciples would do anything, including lying, in order to propagate their lies. The funny thing about the assertion is that it directly contradicts the teachings of Jesus, which was fiercely against the hypocrites. So, the disciples are being accused of doing exactly what they preached against. Again, no evidence is offered that they ever did any such kind of lying. What they skeptics won't tell you is that there is actually evidence that directly contradicts this assertion. The problem with the idea that the disciples made up the miracles of Jesus is that the hostile witnesses of the time (the Jewish religious leadership) never denied that those miracles took place, but attributed them to the work of Satan.1 In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt (obviously by the power of sorcery).2 If the miracles of Jesus had been made-up, the Jews would have denied they ever happened, rather than attribute them to the work of the devil. It was, in fact, the miracles of Jesus that convinced a large number of people that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. So, the extra-biblical evidence actually supports the Bible's claim that Jesus performed numerous miracles, including the healing of an amputee.

The begging the question aspect here is so thick I wonder if this person is kidding or just stupid. OK there is a document that claims fantastical things, things that are not operating in the way we observe today....do we automatically accept it as true? Even these tales of "hostile witnesses" any cooberation. Why do you apply one standard of proof to the Bible(very, very, very low), but not the same standard of proof to every other tale of magical happenings that was written?

Please answer me that Mr. Apologist; Why do you engage in special pleading leading to begging the question?

We here do not...we treat all tales of magical happenings with the same brush, healthy skepticism.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:02:23 PM by Hatter23 »

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt

The begging the question aspect here is so thick I wonder if this person is kidding or just stupid.

What he's saying, is that the strongest evidence he has that Jesus had supernatural powers is a conversation, 218 years after-the-fact, by two clueless individuals. I'm sure that it he had anything better, he would have offered that first.

What gets me is that Christians think that the 4 books of the gospel constitute eyewitnesses, even though they are obviously copied from each other.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 02:55:42 AM by Add Homonym »

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When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.