Lisa Owen interviews Steven Joyce

Steven Joyce
denies a deal has been done with ACT over Epsom despite John
Key fundraising and Paul Goldsmith declining invitation to
campaign for the seat on The Nation, says the PM will be
transparent “in due course, when it suits him”.

Says it’s not his job to talk about any Epsom deal:
“It’s above my pay grade”

Internet-Mana Party
alliance makes no difference to National’s decisions over
electorate deals

Rules out regional royalties, that
were this week called for by Buller mayor Garry Howard, New
Zealand First and Local Government New Zealand.

Says
New Zealand First figures wrong and “it’s too difficult
at this stage”

Figures out later this year will
show that New Zealand’s regions are approaching 3 or 4%
growth

Denies dairy and drilling opportunities are
close to exhausted, says there’s “huge amounts” of
growth potential that can be achieved, but agrees “most of
the Waikato that can be used in the dairy sector is being
used”

Lisa Owen: The report also
flagged a worrying downward population spiral in parts of
the country. Steven Joyce is with me now, good morning
minister.

Steven Joyce: Where were
those downward spirals in population because I must admit I
hadn’t seen those.

We will come to
that. A hundred and eighty-seven jobs gone from Stockton
mine, doesn’t that illustrate how exposed some of the
regions are? You know, reliant on primary industries,
vulnerable to exchange rates and commodity prices, how
worried are you about that?

Well every,
actually the whole of New Zealand is vulnerable to various
economic risks. And the coal industry has gone through,
worldwide, a massive change. I mean, the coal price is now
only a third of what is was in 2011 and it’s not just
Solid Energy that’s damaged by that. In fact, most of the
big coal companies around the world are really struggling.
And it’s tough. It’s tough for the West Coast. It’s
tough for the people of Buller where Stockton is located.
And what that does is that you have to keep investigating
your other opportunities to grow in all these regions. And
that’s something we are very focused on, attracting
investment, doing the right things, making the right policy
decisions that encourages growth and that doesn’t actually
push back the opportunities for growth.

I
want to take a look at a graph that was included in the
report that you’ve got there. Now this graph and we’ll
bring it up on the monitor, it shows you the long term trend
here outside of the big cities, it shows that trend is one
of low incomes and low growth, with 50% of your regions in
that bottom quarter. Do you accept that?

Well I think that it is a long term trend. I mean the
big cities are growing.

But do you accept
that that is the long term trend? Low incomes, low
growth.

Lower incomes in some regions
absolutely, other regions not so much. So Taranaki for
example, which we know about the Taranaki story has got very
high incomes by New Zealand standards. So you look at
regions like that and you look at the regions where there
have been growing incomes and populations, like Southland
and you ask yourself well, what is going on in those
regions. And what’s going on is they are attracting
investment in particularly natural resources-based sectors
that are making a significant difference. So outside
Auckland, Wellington…

Yes but half are
in that bottom quarter, so is that as good as it
gets?

And that’s right. No it’s not
as good as it gets, which is why we are doing the things
like the RMA reforms that we focus on that the Opposition
doesn’t like. It’s why we are very careful about carbon
prices because the Opposition, the Greens, anyone at the
moment want to have five times the world carbon prices into
the regions. That would be a very damaging approach to New
Zealand’s regions where industries are based that actually
are competitive internationally around things such as the
price of carbon. So those sorts of things are important.

But simply put, if you were to get another
term, how many of those dots would move above the
line?

Well they’ve moved. Your point
is that there’s very long term stats, so we are talking
ten-fifteen-twenty years.

Ten years, and
you’ve been in for half of that time…

Well you need to be a little bit careful because in the
data that you are using there and the report you are using
was actually just after the big drought of 2012-2013. Now we
all know that the economy has grown a lot faster since then.
The more current data which won’t be out on a regional
basis till later in the year will show that New Zealand and
the regions are approaching sort of 3 or 4% growth. The
regions have actually led New Zealand’s growth rate out of
the GFC. If you want to look at for example employment in
recent times the whole of the South Island, and not just
Christchurch because people talk about the Christchurch
story, the whole of the South Island has about three percent
less unemployment than the North Island. And there’s
actually lots of jobs across the South island. And actually
the biggest struggle is to get people from the North to move
South to take up those employment opportunities.

And I want to talk about that but first, your
government has focused quite heavily on mining and drilling
and dairy. Are we close, do you think, to exhausting the
money we can make from those things?

Absolutely not. And it is important that we – But look
we haven’t actually focused on those, we are focused on a
whole range of things. Those are the things that the
opposition have criticized. But actually we are focused on
ICT, we are focused on high-tech manufacturing, we are
focused on international education, we are focused on
tourism. We are focused on a range of things. But the bit
that gets the attention is the bit that says we shouldn’t
be doing more of.

But how much is left to
tap into that?

Ah I think there’s
huge amounts. If you actually look at it-

If you could offer a
percentage?

If you look at – well
actually we have our exports double a target in the primary
sector and it’s entirely achievable. And I believe we can
improve our environmental outcomes at the same time as long
as we do it carefully. And I think that’s the important
thing

Because that report does raise
the point – and it singles out Waikato – it says it’s
all but tapped out for dairying, that most of the productive
land is used. And it also references what was called the
summer of exploration. It didn’t find anything, the summer
of exploration.

Well that’s not true.
The two most high profile wells didn’t find anything. But
there’s a whole lot going on in Taranaki and there’s
been a massive investment there. But just come back to the
Waikato question for a minute because I think that’s
important. Yes actually most of the Waikato that can be used
in the dairy sector is being used but actually there’s
massive potential for improvement in productivity across
that region. We’ve had the - The New Zealand dairy
industry is a story of improving productivity for 50-60
years. Things like livestock improvement, things like
improvement in the sort of forage you’re feeding your
cows. All those sorts of things and they’re continuing to
improve. The main things that’s important is that we do is
make sure we recognize that we are an internationally
competitive environment. And the sort of things you can’t
do, and I come back to the carbon tax, the sort of things
you can’t do is suddenly walk out and say ‘ah well,
we’ll tax the farmers 5 times the world price or 2.5 times
the world price and don’t worry they’ll take it’. That
has an impact on the regions. You won’t feel it in Grey
Lynn. You’ll feel it in all the regions around the
country. So there’s a number of things. It’s not just
what we are doing but also what we’re saying we won’t
do, that are important in terms of developing regional
growth.

Just on that
topic, the Buller Mayor Garry Howard, he is looking to
government for some help diversifying in his region. He
acknowledges that he needs to diversify. He would like you
to pay regional royalties. So is that an idea that
you-

Yeah, we’ve had a look at that.
Sadly it doesn’t make very little difference. If you take
for example the New Zealand First approach and the impact it
would have on the West Coast is about a million dollars a
year.

But they said that it would be
$80-million in the last year that they would have got if
there had been that national royalty.

No, no, no, absolutely not. If you took in terms of
their royalties around 25% which is what the New Zealand
First proposal is for the West Coast, is mine is saying
it’s 1 to 1.5-million dollars.

So are
you ruling it out totally?

We just
saying actually there’s much bigger ways in which
government can help and assist. And actually if you look at
what the government-

So you are ruling it
out, just to be clear?

Yeah, it’s too
difficult to do at this stage. So the bigger question is
what’s government doing overall. And actually if you look
at the government investment in regions like the West Coast,
we’ve just announced the new Greymouth base hospital. The
government overall in the smaller regions ends up spending
more per head and that’s partly the economies of scale.
Auckland gets the least on a per head of population basis,
the regions get the most because…

You
raise Auckland, and you raised it before, about getting
people to move out to there other areas. How are you going
to do that? Is that your job as government to try and get
people to move?

No it’s not the job
to. We’re not going to throw people on a bus and say
‘right, you’ve got to go and live where ever’. But
what we are saying is you’ve got to encourage people in
terms of the opportunities there. And so I can tell them,
anybody that’s watching at the moment who hasn’t got a
job in Auckland is there’s some great jobs in regional New
Zealand which can’t be filled. Things like management
jobs, marketing jobs, a whole range of things.

Well you’ve got Kiwibank that’s opening
their call centre in Hawke’s Bay. So should more
government agencies be doing that?

We
have to be a bit careful about that because actually the
ones that are involved in policy, for example have to be
close to the people that they are trying to influence with
the policy and inform with that policy. And we’ve been
through the exercise of shoving people out to the Hutt,
Palmerston North in the 70s and then getting them in cars to
come all the way back to Wellington again to talk.

But ones that don’t have to be in
Wellington, would you consider moving them
out?

Well we do do that. We try and
have people as close to the areas of where their work is as
much as we can. So you take for example the new Worksafe New
Zealand. It’s very much involved in its regional areas
working alongside businesses. The most important thing about
regional economic development is to attract investment.
That’s the thing because you know a few government jobs
frankly, just a few in different areas, doesn’t make a lot
of difference. But if you take for example Hawke’s Bay, if
you can attract food processors to invest further in
Hawke’s Bay that’s a real difference. And attract more
people to invest for example you’ve got two big dairy
factories being built in the Waikato currently. That’s
good investment.

But yes, the statistics
that we looked at was two-thirds for your regions are
shrinking.

No, that’s not right.

Sorry, one-third are shrinking and your
population gross is-

No, I don’t
think that’s right either.

No, it is.
One third are shrinking...

No I,
that’s not right either.

…and
you’re getting depopulation.

Are you
talking about population? That’s not correct. The
population growth, this is actually –

The age of people coming into a number of
those areas is 65+.

So there’s
definitely some -

So what else can you do
to get people down there? What about migrants? Why don’t
you send them to the regions?

But look,
it’s got to be about attracting investment. Because you
can say to people wherever you like you go and live there,
but if there’s no work there, no new jobs, it’s not
going to work. So you’ve got to say it’s about
investment attraction. And that’s what we are really
focused on. So we are providing certainty in terms of the
way the economy is run. We are making sure that the carbon
price doesn’t get too far out of whack with what happens
internationally. We are actually welcoming international
investment. We’re not like the Opposition when the
Japanese wood processors say they’re going to spend a
billion dollars on New Zealand.

I’m sorry, that’s where
you’re wrong. Tell that to the people in Hawke’s Bay
where the Whirinaki wood processing mill has been there for
40 years, they’re the biggest private sector, don’t tell
them that that’s actually just something that happens
broadly and doesn’t affect them. It’s very important to
them. Tell that to the people of Taranaki and the investment
by Todd energy for example in Taranaki, growing their McKee
field and the production station. They’ll tell you
what’s real about investment in terms of jobs. Talk to the
people of Pokeno about Yashili and Yili building a big milk
production factory in Pokeno.

I take your
point. OK, so in the time we’ve got left I just want to
talk about John Banks. Senior National party figures are
saying that he is an honourable man but you have a high
court judge here who says that he’s knowingly falsified
his electoral return. The judge rejected a big chunk of his
police interview as being untrue. Do you seriously believe
that that is an honourable man?

Well A,
I haven’t been that close to the case and B, I’m not
going to make any comments on any case while it’s sitting
in front of a court. I’ve only been in politics for five
and a half years but I think I’ve worked out that’s not
a good thing to do. I actually know John. I’ve actually
known him from before politics. And I’ve always found him
to be pretty straight-up but obviously the court case is the
court case.

But your Prime Minister is
saying he’s honourable.

Yeah, well
that’s right. You can only operate on your own
experience.

So do you think it is
acceptable behaviour?

Nobody is saying
that it’s acceptable behavior to be found, you know, wrong
in the court of law. Or. you know John, I actually feel
sorry for John, sad for John in terms of what’s
happened.

Do you feel sorry for
him?

But I’m not excusing the
behaviour or the court case. I feel sad for him. He’s a
guy with a long public service career and this is how he’s
going to go out, which is sad for anybody.

So is white collar crime OK?

No, don’t be silly. It’s not OK. It’s just simply,
it’s sad for that to happen to somebody. What I am saying
though is that the court is going to do its thing and John
will have to respond to that.

So what’s
National’s message going to be to voters in Epsom this
time round?

National’s message to all
voters over the country will be to give their party vote to
National. Because fundamentally the most important thing,
and I’m speaking as the Campaign Chair now, is party vote.
Everything else makes no difference

But
should they give their electorate vote to Paul
Goldsmith?

Well no. That’ll be a
decision for closer to the time. I tell you what they have
done in Epsom over the last few years is that they –

But haven’t you, you’ve made the decision
already haven’t you? He didn’t come on the show. He says
he’s concentrating on the party vote. It’s a done deal
isn’t it? Why can’t you be upfront about
it?

Well firstly it’s not my job.
It’s above my pay grade. It’s something for the Prime
Minister to decide in terms of -

Oh you
are the Chief Strategist Mr Joyce.

But
no, I’m not.

The deal is done is it
not? Can you not be- The Prime Minister gave an undertaking
that he would be explicit with people?

And I’m sure he will in due course, when it suits him.
The Prime Minister is the Prime Minister and I help the
Prime Minister on some things in terms of assist but at the
end of the day it’s his.

Why is there
such a murkiness around this? Why can’t you come straight
out and say?

No, there’s no murkiness
around it at all. Nah, there’s not a murkiness. What’s
murky is a lot of the other deals that are going on with
small parties at the moment. I hope you’re going to be
just as vociferous with Mr Cunliffe as to whether he’s
actually going to work with for example the Internet-Dotcom
party.

The Prime Minister has already
done a fundraiser for Paul Goldsmith. He’s saying that
he’s concentrating on his party vote. It seems very
clear.

Well actually no to be fair. The
Prime Minister has done a fundraiser for Paul Goldsmith. Ah
I’m sure he has for all the candidates.

It’s for Mr Seymour
rather.

Ah na na. I think he’s done
one for the Act party, the same as he’s done one for the
Maori party, I don’t know whether he’s done one for
Peter Dunne or whatever. That’s actually something that
he’s always traditionally done for people who work with us
through parliament terms. It’s just a way of helping.

So Jamie Whyte, we understand that Jamie
Whyte is going to come out publically and call for his
resignation. Should Mr Banks go?

Ah
look, it’s not my call. John Banks’ is the Act party.
Jamie Whyte’s the Act party. They’ve got to make their
calls around that sort of stuff. What I do know is –

But it is your job this strategy, Mr Joyce,
so on that topic

No it’s not my job
to have strategy for the ACT party, I mean quite truly
it’s not.

No it’s strategy for your
party and part of that strategy is working with Act.

And actually I’m only a contributor to
that, let’s not overplay my importance.

So have you had discussions with Colin Craig
for example?

I haven’t had
discussions, I don’t think, with any other political party
except running into Peter Dunne occasionally because I see
him in parliament. That’s not, frankly that’s not my
role. But again, come back to the point about the election.
Fundamentally the main job for National including me as the
Campaign Chair is to maximize our party vote. And we’re
looking okay at the moment. We’ve got a lot of work to
do.

So is it more likely in these
circumstances where you’ve got Mana and Internet... Is it
more likely that you’re going to be doing these
deals?

I don’t think it makes any
difference. I mean the people of Epsom fundamentally decided
over the last three or four elections, they vote National,
they fundamentally decided what they want is to vote for the
electorate candidate that they’ve chosen to vote for. And
they will make that call this time. The other thing you’ve
got to assume around all of this is that parties can direct
people. People tend to make the decisions that they want to
make as voters that get them the sort of government that
they want. And that’s what will happen in Epsom, and
frankly that’s what till happen in other electorates
around the country.

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