Over on another forum (about working with dog aggression, not about pits), someone with many pits was heartbroken that one of his dogs killed another while he was at work. The dogs had been out together, unattended and unseparated, all day. He also said that he euthanized the second pit, afraid for all his other dogs.

Nearly everyone on the forum said: oh what a terrible unforeseen tragedy, you did all you could to help those dogs, etc etc. This drives me mad. Of course it's heartbreaking, but it wasn't an accident, and it was completely foreseeable. Why, why, why won't people who love pits learn rule #1: don't leave them unattended with another dog. How hard is that to remember? How many more dogs have to die because people are too stubborn to take this simple precaution? That guy was responsible for the death of his two wonderful, beloved dogs, and while I can sympathize with his heartbreak, I really want to hear him say he's learned something from this.

pitbullmamaliz wrote:His dogs were probably the exception to the rule and the rest of us just have untrained dogs. Would I be out of line to guess that perhaps he was a big fan of a certain popular TV trainer's methods?

No, he actually seems like a really dedicated trainer (as far as I can tell from his posts), who mostly uses BAT and CC/DS. He rescues a lot of bullies, and it never occurred to me, in a million years, that he wasn't keeping them separated. I thought EVERYONE knows this. But obviously not--when one person on the forum pointed out that he could have avoided this tragedy by keeping the dogs separated, many others reacted with horror at her insensitivity.

When I adopted Vanya from the local humane society, they didn't say a single word about keeping him separated from our other dogs. Luckily, I adopted him after spending a lot of time at the Bad Rap website and PBRC. But why in heavens name can't all humane societies and rescue organizations just make bully adopters sign a statement pledging that they'll never leave the dog unattended with another dog?? Greyhound rescuers have to sign a statement saying they'll never let the dog off leash. So even if they go against their word, at least they know what they're supposed to be doing.

Well... I didn't start crating my first Pit Bull until I joined here, actually. He and my Border Collie never had an altercation, and they never destroyed anything in the house, so it simply didn't occur to me. I wasn't even aware of the possibility of DA, to be perfectly honest... Then I read someones *horror story* on this forum, and from that day on all my dogs were separated/crated religiously when I'm not home.Sometimes I even crate/seperate them when I'm home, but can't closely supervise them right then... I've had contractors working on the house/yard, and I might be in and out several times, and I don't take any chances.My boys get along fabulously and I don't *think* they would hurt each other if I left them out together, but I'm never "going to find out the hard way" by not taking all necessary precautions.I've gotten several comments from people about "keeping them in cages", and I've tried to explain DA, but then I usually get asked "so... WHY would you have two, if you are worried about them hurting each other???" Now I usually just respond with:" I don't trust either one not to throw a party w/the poodles from up the street while I'm not home...", and leave it at that.DA within your "own pack" is a hard concept to grasp for most people, if they've never seen any evidence or if they lack the understanding of what a Pit Bull has in his/her gene pool... I was one of those people for almost 5 years. Didn't have a clue, and have been thanking my lucky stars ever since that my ignorance didn't cause a catastrophe that could've resulted in at least one dead dog, and would've devestated me for sure.

I, too, am sorry for the loss of two lives... and especially for the Pit who was euthanized afterwards for "punishment".Can you suggest this person join here? Especially if he has other Pit bulls, and is active in rescue?

That frustrates me too. A friend of a friend just took a APBT to Lollipop because when he left the house, some times he attached his other dog. Now, he has had this dog for about 3 years. I asked why not just crate them when hes not home? He said it would be mean to do that. I responded with "and its nice to take him to the pound to be killed?" Well, I have been labeled as a bitch. Because "he tried so hard", but did nothing to avoid it.Some people just shouldn't have APBT. just makes me sad.

My puppy is 2 months old and my yipper is 10. I plan on crating riley if we were to all leave the house, but do I need to monitor them both all the time if we are in the house. We have had riley (our pit/boxer) since he was 4 weeks old. Momma (pit) was dog friendly to the best of our knowledge

amazincc wrote:I wasn't even aware of the possibility of DA, to be perfectly honest...

You are not alone Christine! I am so glad I joined this board because of all the things I have learned about my dog! I thought because my dog was good with other dogs, she would always be good would other dogs. Although I am like you and I think my dog will stay that way, I am ALWAYS WATCHING her with other dogs. I love that dog too much to let her get in trouble like that.

amazincc wrote:Can you suggest this person join here? Especially if he has other Pit bulls, and is active in rescue?

That is probably a good idea.

tiva wrote:Greyhound rescuers have to sign a statement saying they'll never let the dog off leash.

I witnessed a loose Greyhound running down a city street as I was walking. I thought to try to stop it but I was amazed at the speed of that dog! The dog BOUNDED off down the street right by me, luckily on the sidewalk. About 30 seconds later a man in a car whipped around the corner and asked me if I saw a Greyhound run by, I pointed down the street and told him it was going that way - FAST! He floored it! I hope he did catch it safely. An inexperianced well-meaning person can under estimate the power of some of these dogs until we see them in action! Sadly that mistake can prove tragic.

Honestly, I don't see it as just a pit bull owner problem. I see it with all sorts of breeds and types..."why is my Aussie nipping my kids?", Why is my Jack Russell trying to kill my cats?", "I want my sheltie to stop barking at everything".

It seems that most people DO NOT read up on their breed or type before they buy/adopt/rescue...or they go by what Joe Bubba Idiot down the street told them..."Oh, Aussies are GREAT with kids", "Pit bulls are MADE to be mean!" *eye roll*

"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw

That is tragic...poor dogs !! Hopefully he took this as a lesson and changes his ways so it does not happen again- that is so sad!!! I crate Ino when I leave the apt, eventhough I do not have another dog, I do have two kitties. They get along great, but the kitties can get fresh with him from time to time and on occasion play can get a little rough (kitties are not declawed and have accidentally scratched me when play swatting, and Ino learned to play swat back....he's just under 80lbs to the kitties 15 ). It is just safer and Ino seems to be more comfortable in there anyway. I think he would be more anxious and would wait at the door for me if he was not crated, but when he is crated, he just sleeps and it relieves him from his need to alert when hears the neighbors are outside. We go for a good walk in the morning and another in the afternoon so he gets worn out. Even when I am home in the day and he is not crated, he sleeps the whole time between walks anyway. He is actually asleep in there now, eventhough I am home and the crate door is open . If I go to his box of biscuits, unplug appliances, or take his collar off, he automatically goes in and waits for his biscuit...it is funny, especially if I am taking his collar off for it to dry instead of planning to leave. I can not leave toys in the crate though because he makes it a point to kill every toy as fast as he can and eventhough he spits pieces out if he can, he still could accidentally swallow something . When he was small and teething, I left specific toys in the crate with him cause he could not get pieces off but now he will with any toy so I have to supervise him!! The only toy he has not been able to kill was an oversized jolly ball and that is only because he can't get his mouth around any parts of it!!

Here's a question - how on earth did he know which dog to blame???? A bunch of dogs were left home alone, unattended and one was dead when he got home. How do you decide which one did the killing? Which one deserves to die for it? How horrible...

We had this discussion about a very similar incident at my dog training club a few years ago. The story as related to me at the time (it has since changed) was that someone with two Rottweilers was taking care of two Corgis. The dogs were left home un-attended and the dog were not crated at the request of the Corgi's owner. Instead, they had been locked in different rooms. When the person returned home, one of the Corgis was dead. The Rottweiler was banned from all club events after that. Club members were not happy with me when I expressed my disapproval at that decision - they did not understand how I could disagree with banning a dog that would kill another dog. My point was this - if no one was home, how could we know which dog instigated the fight? The Corgi could have started it, just because the Rott finished it doesn't mean anything... but it isn't really PC to point that out. And I wasn't talking to "stupid" people... but most dog owners don't really think of things that way. "little dog vs big dog" - you always blame the big dog; we are conditioned to think that way.

When I had Cleo, my friend's 9 year old mini-Daschund Sarah went after her. Sarah wanted a piece of her, Candy laughed. I didn't. Cleo would have killed that dog in under a second, without hesitation. And no one would have taken Cleo's side, but Sarah was clearly the aggressor.

mrs1two wrote:My puppy is 2 months old and my yipper is 10. I plan on crating riley if we were to all leave the house, but do I need to monitor them both all the time if we are in the house. We have had riley (our pit/boxer) since he was 4 weeks old. Momma (pit) was dog friendly to the best of our knowledge

You have to get to know your dogs. Some people crate their dogs if they are in shower, some people don't. You will learn your comfort level. There are days that I put the boys up and just leave Ruby out if I am not right with them, and other days that as long as I am within ear shot, I'm comfortable.

Rolex+Deebo wrote:That frustrates me too. A friend of a friend just took a APBT to Lollipop because when he left the house, some times he attached his other dog. Now, he has had this dog for about 3 years. I asked why not just crate them when hes not home? He said it would be mean to do that. I responded with "and its nice to take him to the pound to be killed?" Well, I have been labeled as a bitch. Because "he tried so hard", but did nothing to avoid it.

unREAL. It's mean to crate the dog, but it's ok for it to die??? WTF? And take it to the pound, because that's much better than just putting it down, because God forbid we just face facts and understand that that is the reality of what is going to happen. Good for you for speaking up, someone needed to. Now they are calling you a bitch because it's easier to say that than to do a little self-examination and realize that they just dumped a dog at a shelter to die because they are too lazy and selfish to do the RIGHT thing.

I don't suppose you'd care to share the name of the forum?

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

TheRedQueen wrote:It seems that most people DO NOT read up on their breed or type before they buy/adopt/rescue...or they go by what Joe Bubba Idiot down the street told them..."Oh, Aussies are GREAT with kids", "Pit bulls are MADE to be mean!" *eye roll*

I know this is going to make me sound really stupid, but... for the longest time I thought "a dog is a dog is a dog". I kinda *knew*, in a sort of hazy way, that certain breeds were known for certain characteristics, but in the end - they were all "just dogs" to me. You feed them, walk them, train them, and most of all - love them - and they'll be okay. And I'm fairly intelligent... but it still didn't occur to me that different breeds may have different requirements until I needed help w/Mick and did actual research... and what a freakin' eye-opener that was! When we rescued Daisy... again, no idea about Border Collies, and our-then vet actually labeled her as "extremely neurotic" because she did excatly what she was bred for - herding. Granted, she did that on the playground w/small children, because there weren't any sheep around, but had I educated myself... yeah...