Microsoft SkyLine, SkyMarket and SkyBox

A CNET story about a potential Windows Marketplace service for Windows Mobile--oh, sorry, it's an iPhone App Store rip-off for those not aware of history--has led me to a few other obviously related services. But first the CNET article:

It appears Microsoft expects to launch an applications store called "Skymarket" this fall for its Windows Mobile platform, if a recent job posting is accurate. According to the ad posted Sunday on Computerjob.com, the Skymarket senior product manager will head a team that will "drive the launch of a v1 marketplace service for Windows Mobile."

Annoyingly, the article doesn't link to the Job posting so I searched for SkyMarket on Computerjob.com and came up with two hits (here and here). The first references two other presumably-related services, SkyLine and SkyBox.

Only a few details are revealed by the job postings. The first, for Director, Mobile Office Communications - Services, says:

You will ... develop a vision and strategy for mobile services. You will also work closely with the SkyLine, SkyMarket and SkyBox teams as well as with the Office Live team to ensure that we are leveraging all the resources across Microsoft.

The second posting, for Product Manager - Commercial Integration, talks more directly about SkyMarket (emphasis mine):

This is a unique opportunity ... to drive the commercial operations and infrastructure integration for the v1 launch of an applications marketplace service for Windows Mobile 7.

Key responsibilities:

Drive the commercial operations and infrastructure integration that will enable the Skymarket service and enable revenue collection from consumers of the service and payments to 3rd party developers selling applications/content through the marketplace.

Enable initial launch of the marketplace with the launch of WM 7.

The jobs were both posted today. Start date on both is "ASAP."

I wonder if SkyMarket is intended to be an OTA/deeply integrated marketplace. I'd say the Windows Mobile world is already pretty well served on the PC by Handango.

Master3
Actually, any of these "stores" are really just a download location for app installers with an optional identity and billing system.
Most networks have had something similar about as long as there have been networks.

@Interframe - I can think of a few areas Microsoft has touched on this idea before: Xbox Live Marketplace. Windows Marketplace. Zune Marketplace.
The concept of the Marketplace is not exclusive to Apple either. I dunno about you, but it sure copies apt-get packages in Linux distros a whole bunch too. And that seems to have copied supermarkets. And that seems to have copied Mom & Pop shops. And that seems to have copied the Bazaar.
I could go on, but it's useless to argue. Apple fanboys everywhere will just remember this as something Microsoft copied. But at least you aren't an Apple fanboy and you will listen, right?

So, just because Apple has done something like an store for mobile applications, nobody else can do that? Wow, what hubris. Since when did Apple have exclusive licence to do anything? They tried with the OS and lost.
Last I checked in the United States at least, you're allowed to compete against anyone in any given market. So Microsoft is making its own online store for mobile applications. To me at least, its a logical conclusion in the digital mobile revolution, that purchasing applications via your phone would be the next step.
Until I see an actual Microsoft presentation on Windows Mobile 7, this is speculation. I really do hope for their own sake that they seriously overhaul the WM platform. I've seen and played with a few WM 5 phones and 6.0, and I wasn't too impressed. Then again, the flaws in the iPhone 3G have not impress me either. Even the Samsung Instinct needs work too. So the lastest 3G generation doesn't really have the "Wow" factor. There are so many things to work on. Battery life, decent megapixel cameras, better browsers, the ability to download big files and save them on detachable media.
I still believe we're in the infancy of phones and mobile devices. It will be a decade or two before it gets to where mobile platform is up there with your desktop or notebook.

I thought SkyDrive was a good name, but if "Sky" is the new "Live" it will loose it's appeal.
Why does Microsoft have to be so inconsistent with their product naming. What does SkyDrive have to do with mobiles.

Actually Sub, you already can purchase iPhone apps from the iPhone app store right on the phone. They showed it in a TV commercial last last, and I did it yesterday. I was home so it was over WFi, so I can't verify that it can be done with 3G or EDGE.
I was able to log on my Live Mesh account, but I could not open any folder. MS states that mobile support is coming [along with Mac support, but you can still log on, UL and DL on a Mac via browser, but one file at a time]. If it becomes iPhone compatible, you could upgrade to Hotmail Premium service for $20/yr and have just about everything that MobileMe does for one fifth of the cost. IMO, it sure could kill MobileMe, at least for Windows.

Doc:
I don't know if Mesh will be free when it comes out of beta, though.
Moreover, because Live Mesh is still in beta, it might have some bugs. MobileMe, being a final release, is probably more stable and has few bugs. :-)

@yert, yes other companies have done the market place before Apple. I have used the Xbox 360 and Zune when I had one.
The clear difference and the this is what makes Apples version stand out is ease of use. From a iPhone, or iTouch (on wifi) you can download apps, and pay for them if you have an account setup. Just type in your password and they come to your device. This can be done via iTunes as well. In fact I have bought a game or two for my kids fatboy nano. If the rumors are true the new Nano may have wireless as well.
The difference's are many IMHO. The are NO POINTS involved like the MS world. Oh how I hated having buy something, so I could buy what I wanted, in the case of the 360 before I moved to a PS3. I want to see the real price and pay it if I want. Not buy more "Points" than I need and then buy something and have left over points that of course wont buy anything so I have to buy more.
Also for a developer Apple takes 30%. However it makes your life so much easier. Apple puts your app on the store for you, handles all of the transactions (credit cards etc) and then just pays you at the end of the month. So you dont have to have a store front, payment process setup or any of that stuff that may hinder simple developers. The whole process from app development to consumer, consuming is simple and consistent.
@doc I had hotmail Plus or Premium in 2007, or what it was that I paid $19.99 a month for. Its POP 3 only, NON-push. Hotmail has a limit on the # of emails you can send at one time, and in one 24 hour period. I belong to a email chain of about 35 people that game on the 360 and now more on the PS3 these days. When hot "gaming" topics would pop up and "reply to alls" were sent to the whole group I would be stopped from sending email after the 7 or 8th email in one day. I can only guess that hotmail saw me sending email to 35 people times 6 or whatever it was and I reached some limit and probably looked like I was spamming. It was the final straw for me on hotmail where I had been since it was NOT owned by MS. Gmail became my new home and my hotmail points to gmail now. I do have a .mac account as well and that limit is not imposed on either it or gmail.
OT for Paul. I know many Mac switchers that have completely cut the Windows cord. They only MS product they use is Office 2004/2008. Some use iWork mainly and have Office for those compatibility issues. This is for home use, not business related. They may use Windows at their day job because they have to. To be honest its easier to do than you think about it. Unless you have some hobby that uses a piece of software that either is only on Windows, or a Mac version is not as good its very easy to do for personal computing. Especially with so much of what we do is through a browser these days.

Correction Hotmail plus was $19.99 a year. Its MSN premium that is $124.95 a year:) Which of course Paul did not cover in his review of vendor services, along with yahoo, google and mobileme. Probably because the price to suckage ratio would have been so bad that everything else would have looked great!!
http://join.msn.com/en-ca/premium/overview

I see Yahoo's Zimbra for mobile phone, but don't understand if it com petes with Exchange, MobileMe or both. There's a corporate solution, so I'm confused.
I also, have gmail since it's iPhone compatible [but would prefer Hotmail], that I just started since I'm about to dump Comcast for FiOS triple play, and leave the Comcast price gouging behind.

Lindy, go to home.live.com because the Skydrive is actually a folder in Live Mesh, or it's the same. It holds up to 5GB and I see no fee or beta notice. Any one else want to help us out here above the 'Live' and 'Sky' stuff? Yeh, I know it's labor day, but I'm posting in between sets while I lift.

Lindy
"Also for a developer Apple takes 30%. However it makes your life so much easier."
For some that may actually be true but hardly universally.
One of the things I've done in my spare time over the last few years was to be a state commissioner for a local drainage district.
A few years back I wrote a system that gets river level and flow data from the USGS and converts it into an XML web service. From there I wrote a client that displays the current data and liklihood of flooding in an icon in the notification area of Windows computers. I made it available to the people who live in the flood plain of our district on one of my websites and emailed it to several people on the district mailing list.
A couple of years later I decided it would be handy to have that same data available when people weren't sitting at their computers so I wrote a Windows Mobile client. I won't go into how little time and code it took (beyond saying I did it in a lunch break) but the real key is that the process consisted of selecting Windows Mobile as the type of app and building the app. Within a day of deciding to do a mobile version I was running it and had it available for download.
I looked into doing an iPhone version and here's what I'd have had to do.
Sign up for the SDK and wait, probably for several months, for the application to be approved. Pay an annual licensing fee. Develop the app (We'll skip the immature tools, the "f'ing NDA" issue, the alert tool not being ready and the non-parallel toolset). Test the app in the emulator. Test on only my device. Then, submit the application for approval by Apple to be on their store. Wait more time, probably for weeks at least. Once it gets Apple's OK, I still can't have people download it from my site nor can I send it out to people or give it away on a CD or floppy at town meetings. All I can do is tell them how to search for it.
And, if I feel like tweaking the app, I can't just put an update up on my site, I have to, once again, submit the updated version to Apple for approval and publishing.
And for all that extra process, I'd have waited months to release a free app to the public and be left with a less convenient way for them to get it. And paid Apple an annual fee for the priviledge of adding their platform to an existing system.
So, tell me, how did that make my life "so much easier"?

DRWAM
Skydrive is actually Windows Live Skydrive and is part of "Live"
There are no "Sky*" named services (although it looks like there may be some using sky in their codenames)
(BTW: Windows Live Skydrive is different than Mesh. Skydrive is a cloud storage area but isn't designed for the same kind of synchronization that you see in Live Mesh)

Yep. My mistake. I added similar files to Skydrive and thought that Mesh was the same since they were in Mesh too. This leads to more questions. Skydrive [5GB linit], in Live services is not beta and is free. Is that correct? If so, one would think that Mesh would be free when out of beta, since it's similar and has the same 5GB limit [or at least the free version].
What do you think?

What I was stating is that you couldn't download those programs or files to detachable media. You can't hook up your USB thumb drive to your phone and save those programs. I'm aware of the iPhone app store and its purchasing over the air capabilities.
As for me opening up an app store to compete with the iTunes app store, I'll just wait and see what happens with the Psystar vs Apple lawsuit before even thinking about such an endeavour. If Psystar can successfully challenge Apple, then an App store competitor would be possible.
Its my feeling that we're still at the infancy of mobile OS and application writing. There's still a long way to go.

>>"Last I checked in the United States at least, you're allowed to compete against anyone in any given market. "
Really? Let's see you open up a competitor to the iPhone store.<<
I think he was talking about 'allowed by the goovernment'.
>>So, tell me, how did that make my life "so much easier"?<<
There are exceptions. It must be noted, however, that most developers seems to view it positively.

Ocean
Who do you think enforces Apple's ability to sue you out of existance for violating their licensing agreements?
As for "most developers", did you poll them or are you just making it up as you go along? I've seen lots of developers complain about Apple's program and lots not even bother (including me). Unless you've got real data, do us a favor and don't pretend you do.

Sub, I am not convinced that Pystar will have a good chance at all. But I am shocked that Apple has not gotten an injunction to stop them from selling. They tried this with Luxpro iPod knockoffs [I can't remember if it was successful] so why not Pystar? Maybe there's more merit to the case, but claiming a monopoly just won't hold water for numerous reasons , which are posted all over the web.

DRWAM
The interesting thing in the Psystar case will be if they can succeed in their attempt to get Apple ruled a monopoly in the OS X compatible market.
If so, they'll have to play by the same restricted rules that Microsoft does and, most likely, will mean they'll have to provide an OEM channel and support clone makers.
It seems pretty unlikely to succeed but IANAL and stranger rulings have happened (like most of DOJ v Microsoft)

>>Who do you think enforces Apple's ability to sue you out of existance for violating their licensing agreements?<<
If you don't agree with the license, don't do business with them. Thats the beauty of a free market.
>>As for "most developers", did you poll them or are you just making it up as you go along?<<
Nice try, but that kind of debating doesn't fly.
Sure, plenty have complained, but theres also no shortage of developers angling to get on board and make their wares available to the iPhone market. No numbers needed, just a brief perusal of the web. Also, the folks behind Android and the this very blog posting show that there's something to it as well.
>>Perhaps that’s why Microsoft’s new store for Windows Mobile 7, called Skymarket, leaked today. And it’s also why Google announced late last week that it was planning on launching the Android Market to compete with Apple’s store. ***Each and every company going after the mobile Web is trying to do what Apple has done with its own App Store.***<<
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/09/01/is-there-a-recipe-for-success-in-mo...

As for the "free market" somehow not involving the government, again, violate Apple's license agreement and it's not Apple that comes after you, it's the government.
That's the point you seem to have missed with your silly "the government won't come after you if you build your own iPhone store"
Of course they will. They're the one that enforces civil agreements.

There are plenty of reasons to say the Apple store is not the best route, especially considering your river data app. In that case then the Apple store is not a the best route.
However Apple's focus has always been on the consumer first. Big business and government come second. Following the logic, the Apple app store from development to consumer is the best around right now.
Then again if you get special permission from Apple, the appstore can be bypassed.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/30/u_s_army_increasingly_usin...

Lindy
The big problem isn't that Apple's developer program/store isn't "the best route". The problem is that it is the ONLY route.
Yes, you can get a corporate license if you are willing to go through the bureaucracy and cost. And, perhaps, if Apple decides they like you then they may choose to let you skip a step or two. But the real point is that you, as a developer, have NO options. It's NOT the equivalent of a developer program that offers benefits that you can choose to accept if you agree. There is NO legal way to develop software for the iPhone platform without Apple's arbitrarily enforced program.
The madatory Apple developer program is the equivalent of a bad law that's only selectively enforced. It's still a bad law and whether you get hurt by it doesn't depend on whether you violated the terms but by whether the power structure likes you.
That's not thinking different, that's just being Mister Burns.

Lindy
Or "the Apple app store from development to consumer is the best around right now."
is more accurately:
the Apple app store from development to consumer is the best around right now for developers who are planning on selling commercial applets with a slow upgrade cycle and limited testing to a global mass-market of retail consumers but sucks for pretty much every other market, development model or testing scenario.

Ocean
Some <> Most
If I said "Most Apple fans are flaming fanbois" instead of "some Apple fans are flaming fanbois" you'd doubtless not say it was just semantics and you'd be right to complain about my wording.

Mike your the developer I wont argue the politics/benefits of what is good for developing on any platform.
Clearly Apple is controlling the whole process. I tend to think they are doing it to keep the quality/image of the product as high as possible, others will say its a Steve Job's power trip.
Regardless as of today it works for them and works well when you look at the iPhones insane adoption rate. The are numbers all over the place putting iPhone sales any where from 12-40 million a year from now. I was just in Bestbuy today and right when I walked in there was a movie poster size sign of the iPhone with a date 9-7-08, I can only assume that Bestbuy will start selling the iPhone now.
As far as developing tools for the iPhone, I did read this and it seems to suggest that the tools are as good or better than Windows Mobile, and this from a long time .NET programmer who has published a few .NET books.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/08/20/kevin_hoffman_iphone_devel...
Again I am not a developer beyond some VB scripts that make my life easier managing hundreds of Windows servers.

I know Psystar's suit has a lesser chance at suceeding, but they've proven that the Apple markup of pricing is excessive. They've built a computer with almost exact Apple specs for much less than you'd pay for a Mac. The benchmark scores from were pretty good on the Open Computer. If its really about healthy competition, shouldn't someone else have access to OS-X? Apple shouldn't be the only hardware provider for OS-X, if its true competition. I know Apple doesn't see it this way, but as a consumer, I want to see this lawsuit suceed.
Besides if Apple really wants to compete with Microsoft directly, jump into the OEM market. Quit playing it safe as a niche player. Or Apple should move aside for an OS that's willing to challenge Microsoft Windows. Its the only way to get real innovation and change in the industry. IMO.

I fyou compare the closest HP [$2,369.00] to the Mac Pro tower [$2,299.00 when you change to a single CPU like the HP], both with single 2.8 GHzXeon chips, but the Mac has 8 core and HP 4 core, and the HP has NVIDIA Quadro FX 570 (256 MB), but the Mac has ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB and mac has 8ooMHz RAm while HP has 667Mhz. But you must add $249 for Apple care to get the same 3 yr warranty, so the Mac is actually $2,548 with better hardware. Probaly need to add $50 to HP for video software or not with Vista? Any way it's close. The Psystars are not the same hardware [Core 2, not Xeon], so it's not a great comparison to the Pro Tower. BUT, if benchmarks are close, you can still save cash and upgrade earlier in the future, which makes Psystar a better deal, IMO. Also, Psystar to spend millions developing hardware and software, but put cheaper parts together to make a buck, at the expense of the company that owns the rights to the OS and gets all the complaints when something goes wrong. That's not cool, but wouldn't stop me from buying:)
NOW, I compare the entry 17 inch MBP to a simlar spec HP laptop and there was around a $1000 difference. Yep, the similar MBP costs one thousand dolllars more! You know that I don't like to curse on the web, but WTF? You really gotta love them to buy it. Again, IMO. My kids beat up all their toys, so you can bet that you won't see Mac laptop in my home anytime soon. I'll stick with Vista laptops, thank you.

Subman, please forgive my typos. I played football instead of typing class. I meant to write that Apple spent millions developing the OS and hardware, while Psystar usurps, including selling systems for which free code was specifically not meant for resale. So, I don't even think that they deserve to win, even if it's legal, which it probably is not. You could wonder what a win for Psystar would do to Apple. Profits could take a nose dive and slow OS or hardware development, although how much hardware are we talking since most of the parts are off the shelf. Any way, sorry for the typos.
Doc
PS, are you a Highlander fan? i was just curious.

Doc,
No worries. We're all guilty of typos. Its the human element and no reason to apologize. And yes, I am a fan of the Highlander series. But more of the television series more than the movie.
Later.