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I'm considering taking on the child of a very close friend as one of my students. Though I've been teaching many years now, this actually hasn't happened before -- I've never taught a person (or the child of a person) who is also a close friend. I have had clients with whom I've struck up a friendship, but with most of my clients, it's pretty much a business relationship.

I'm just wondering if there are any issues I should be aware of. I'd be interested in hearing about any of your experiences with this situation. I have a very slight concern about mixing a business relationship with a personal one.

I should add that I wouldn't have any worries about taking on this student outside of this one concern. Both parents are very involved and responsible in their child's life, and I'm sure they'll be completely cooperative. The mother has taught piano as well (just a few students) and has a great understanding of what it takes to make piano lessons effective. The child is open to the idea of me as the piano teacher.

Seriously, this is fraught with potential problems. Are you planning to charge? Forget it. Money issues will build walls between friends faster than anything I can think of.

Missed lessons, not practicing, are just two additional problems you'll encounter.

I'd highly recommend you "change your mind" and tell the family that after further reflection and the advice of colleagues that "you value our friendship too much to jeopardize it." Be prepared to recommend some alternate teachers.

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"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Seriously, this is fraught with potential problems. Are you planning to charge? Forget it. Money issues will build walls between friends faster than anything I can think of.

Missed lessons, not practicing, are just two additional problems you'll encounter.

I'd highly recommend you "change your mind" and tell the family that after further reflection and the advice of colleagues that "you value our friendship too much to jeopardize it." Be prepared to recommend some alternate teachers.

I agree with John. As my dad used to say, "don't mix business with pleasure". He was right.

I've taught two kids (siblings) who are children of my very good friends. The parents are great people, but the kids are some of the worst students you can imagine: zero motivation, zero memory, and zero talent. I clearly didn't want to teach them, but I felt bad turning them away (they also drove far, far distances each way to have lessons with me). Similarly, the parents were too nice to quit lessons or take their lessons to teachers who live 3 miles away from their home. The drudgery dragged out for six interminable years, until the kids hit high school and the parents realized that it's not just piano they're bad at.

That being said, I'm still good friends with these parents. But the experience of teaching their children was somewhat painful.

I think you have to decide that you will have a totally different mindset when teaching children of close friends.

Do you have a strict makeup lesson policy? You'll have to be more flexible. Do you enforce late fees for parents paying their tuition after the due date? You won't be able to do that with a friend. Missed lessons? Lesson changes? Students showing up late? All of the stuff that bugs us to pieces as teachers..... you'll have to pretty much 'go with the flow' because she's your friend.

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Music School OwnerEarly Childhood Music Teacher/Group Piano Teacher/Private Piano TeacherMember of MTAC and Guild

An understatement, I suspect! Time tends to dull memories of excruciating pain.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

My experiences have been quite different, and positive. I have taught piano to friends, and I have taught piano to children of friends, and both can work just fine.

What the warnings are about, of course, are when the teaching doesn't go well and you wish to extricate yourself, or when there are discomforts related to money or missed lessons. I'd say to be sure to adopt a professional relationship regarding those 45 minutes a week - at first almost an overly professional relationship regarding those 45 minutes a week - but also don't forget to laugh about it with the family. Don't lessen your friendship, in other words.

You might have a discussion with your friends in advance about the possible pitfalls to commencing this teaching relationship. Then make it clear that you will try this just for one season, to see how it goes, and that you reserve the right to end it, in favor of the friendship.

Life is potentially messier when you mix business and pleasure, but that's not necessarily a reason to avoid it. It's not much different than living in a small town, where you are buddies with your insurance agent, your farm implement dealer, and your parish priest. And where you are the only piano teacher.

I agree with Peter. In my own experience the majority of my studio over the years has been comprised of the children of many of my good friends from church and also neighbours. It has generally worked out and has been a joy and privilege to teach these families. I also liken it to what would occur teaching in a small town where everyone knows everyone, where the neighbour lady is your piano teacher etc.

That being said, the pitfalls are as follows in my experience...

If a friend complains about finances it feels awkward because I know I am on their payroll. What I've learned is that people make choices. So at first I felt guilty for taking my friend's money when they were so tight....but eventually I began to realize they would buy a new couch, go out to the movies more then we would, buy more clothes then I would etc. etc.....and I realized that I didn't need to feel guilty about any of the money they were paying me (which I work very hard for). If they choose to send their kid for piano lessons....it will cost $$. Simple as that.

Sometimes I have held back on saying things more bluntly....because I want to be careful to uphold their friendship.... But I'm a people-pleaser by nature, so this is naturally a bit of my personality. I do realize I need to be careful not to sacrifice being honest and clear with students and parents.

I think the biggest thing that has affected my studio is that I feel a greater need to be flexible like another poster mentioned. In other words I don't follow my studio policy as closely as I may with others. I bend over backwards for these good friends to reschedule make-up lessons...which they have been VERY appreciative of. I also had one friend who was notoriously late paying tuition....which ended up feeling awkward at times when I had to keep reminding...but I stuck to my ground and it worked out fine.

I have not lost any friends through the process. It has generally enhanced my relationship with these families as I have built special relationships with these kids over the many many years I have taught them. One of my friends switched her son over to another teacher from our church because she wanted a different style then mine. And that is okay. It hurt. But I'm a big girl and just had to get thicker skin. Over the years there have been a number of kids that have dropped piano because they weren't wanting to put in the effort required...and that is okay too.

I present myself professionally to my friends from the start. They know this is my business, my income, my speciality. And so far it has worked out fine.

And on a side note, I have found that many of my clients have become my friends over the many many years of teaching them. They live in my neighbourhood, attend my own kid's schools, attend the same church, visit the same parks etc. etc. So eventually some of the same above issues come into play even with these clients....

Peter, things may be considerably different north of the border. Here, a large part of the population consider piano teachers merely hobbyists, not people who are earning a living. For years, long before I reached so called "retirement" age, people would make statements like, "Wow, you teach piano? And what is your regular job?" The reason, I suspect, is that in times past, and perhaps even today, many people taught to earn pocket change. Personally, I'm reluctant to teach friends or their children or grandchildren, as I don't want to treat them as clients. I would not want to have to send an arrears account to a collection agency, for example, and I really don't want to teach for free. If done correctly, it's hard work, and my efforts are deserving the fees I charge.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

I'm surprised at how negative some of the responses are. (Maybe my friends are just different than theirs?) I would never worry about someone I took on who was a friend trying to sneak around paying somehow... they would be fully aware this is a business relationship, and would be held to the same standards as my other students in terms of paying, practicing, etc. (For example, lessons would cease if they "weren't able" to pay.) I definitely agree you ought to have a discussion upfront where you talk with them about your concerns about this new relationship, and just make sure they are on the same page in agreeing that you won't be able to give them any special treatment due to your relationship.

I'm simply not friends with people who are dishonest or would try to take advantage of a situation like this, and if teaching their child caused me to find out that was the case, then so be it; I wouldn't consider it a great loss.

I've never actually taught someone who was previously a friend, but it has come up once or twice and I wouldn't hesitate to do it (Both times it fell through for other reasons.) It seems a good situation for both parties, IMHO, you *already* have the relationship of trust. They don't have to wonder if you are molesting their kid, and you don't have to wonder if their check is going to bounce, etc. I have, however, a couple times over the years found myself actually *becoming* friends with the parent or family. I don't quite see how that is so different, and why that would be fine but teaching someone who is already a friend is not recommended? Should you stop teaching someone if your relationship were to ever begin to include social activities? (Rhetorical question - I think absolutely not.)

I'm surprised at how negative some of the responses are. (Maybe my friends are just different than theirs?)

Hi red rose. I'm not sure whether you're a teacher or not, as you haven't identified yourself as one. However, life experiences often are contrary to our idealistic notions. For many of us, this is one situation where this is all too true. We went in wearing rose colored glasses and came out sadder but wiser. Generally speaking I don't think we're being negative, we're being forthright. There's a difference.

There is also a matter of what you charge for your services. Many teachers grossly undercharge, so when a friend is slow to pay, it's of little consequence, at least in the mind of the debtor. There is also the issue of people over-extending themselves, not intentionally, but through lack of planning or poor planning. Large corporations and government agencies are the first to be paid, simply because they have the leverage to enforce payment, while small businesses are always at the end of the line. This is a chronic problem for small businesses, not just piano teachers.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

I'm surprised at how negative some of the responses are. (Maybe my friends are just different than theirs?)

Hi red rose. I'm not sure whether you're a teacher or not, as you haven't identified yourself as one.

Really?

Originally Posted By: red-rose

would be held to the same standards as my other students

I've been teaching for almost 10 years, and fortunately have not had any of the experiences to which you seem to refer regarding idealism or rose-colored glasses. I'm pretty realistic in my expectations, and don't have a problem being forthright with people when necessary. (or not necessary...) And so far my piano-teaching relationships and experiences have not been disappointing in the slightest. I'm sorry yours seem to have been.

I'm surprised at how negative some of the responses are. (Maybe my friends are just different than theirs?)

Hi red rose. I'm not sure whether you're a teacher or not, as you haven't identified yourself as one.

Really?

Originally Posted By: red-rose

would be held to the same standards as my other students

I've been teaching for almost 10 years, and fortunately have not had any of the experiences to which you seem to refer regarding idealism or rose-colored glasses. I'm pretty realistic in my expectations, and don't have a problem being forthright with people when necessary. (or not necessary...) And so far my piano-teaching relationships and experiences have not been disappointing in the slightest. I'm sorry yours seem to have been.

Yes, really. The reason I didn't know for certain is because if your are a teacher, you have ignored the simple requirements of the forum for all professionals to identify themselves as such. If you overlook something that simple, one has to wonder what else you might overlook.

Those of us who have encountered difficulties with the teaching of friends, which was the OPs inquiry, have noted our cautions. If yours have been positive, then bully for you.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Yes, really. The reason I didn't know for certain is because if your are a teacher, you have ignored the simple requirements of the forum for all professionals to identify themselves as such. If you overlook something that simple, one has to wonder what else you might overlook.

My apologies. Where is this requirement stated? And when/how does one identify themselves as such? It seems only a percentage of people have any sort of description or identifier as their signature, so obviously not only is this not something that is enforced regularly, but it's not something "so simple to overlook" that you need to go as far as using it as an insult against me.

Yes, really. The reason I didn't know for certain is because if your are a teacher, you have ignored the simple requirements of the forum for all professionals to identify themselves as such. If you overlook something that simple, one has to wonder what else you might overlook.

My apologies. Where is this requirement stated? And when/how does one identify themselves as such? It seems only a percentage of people have any sort of description or identifier as their signature, so obviously not only is this not something that is enforced regularly, but it's not something "so simple to overlook" that you need to go as far as using it as an insult against me.

Please do not take directness as an insult. It's not intended as such.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Should I make a list of all the active members who regularly post things implying they are piano teachers, but don't actually identify themselves in their signature? Are their posts not taken seriously because of this?

Just my personal thoughts on the matter. Obviously, there may be legit reasons not to divulge identity on an open internet forum. However, many of us do, and other than pesky spam, we haven't suffered ill from it. If you have time to read through some of the posts on the Tech forum or main piano forum, you'll note that dealers, venders, techs all identify themselves. It does tend to lend credence to your posts, at least in my opinion. For example, you know my name. You can read through Guild publications and verify that I am certified and see pictures of my students and their awards. Ditto for teachers holding MTNA certifications. Even though my postings tend to be short and direct, and many times not carefully worded, you know I'm trying to offer suggestions based on experience. Hope this answers some of your questions.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Anyhow, my question is- Why am *I* being called out for this? I've been reading this forum for several months and NEVER seen anyone questioned due to not having the "proper signature," even though plenty of other people give advice and experience without saying in their signature precisely who they are.

As far as I know, no one is "calling you out." I didn't realize you were a piano teacher, because it wasn't in your signature block. You could be a classroom teacher, art teacher, etc.

_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

ok, let me rephrase my question since apparently it was difficult to understand.Why is no one else ever QUESTIONED when they write a post that clearly seems to indicate they are a piano teacher, and yet they have no signature that states that?

This has come up before. The big problem actually involved people selling (expensive) products like pianos and being sneaky about it. For example, somebody can be "asking opinions" about a product or a store, when in fact they want people to look at their own product and they are posing. To prevent this kind of advertisement, that section has been written up. It is less likely that teachers would do this, from the very fact that teaching tends to happen locally. However, with the Internet, electronic courses as sold packages, Skype lessons and similar, this is also changing.

The teacher forum presents some different problems. Someone may write in asking about some matter of playing, music, interpretation, technique etc. If a student, one kind of answer is needed, if a teacher, another. Some teachers only want to help fellow-teachers and not students. It becomes more confusing as some people write in, sounding expert as they make broad statements as though fact, but it's conjecture as they have never taught a student in their entire lives. But people will follow this "advice" or base themselves on these "facts" in good faith that it's from an experienced teacher.

That is how all this arose. Thing is - how is teacher defined, and what is the cut-off point? If it's defined as someone who teaches piano for an exchange of money, there are people who don't know what they are doing who do so anyway - and there are others who know a great deal. You'd take the one seriously due to the title of "teacher", and not the other. Anyone can call himself a teacher. It remains a problem.

its hardly a "rule" tho, its an encouragement. it's also not blatant to find this rule, I had to search it via google. No need to be condescending. She was simply offering her personal experience and thoughts about this topic. There are others who aren't identified as well, but because they agreed with you, you ignored them.

I can see both sides to this argument. On one hand, it has the potential to jeopardize a current valued friendship. On the other, you can have the mindset that if something ruins the friendship like not being paid on time or not practicing etc etc, you can also thank them for showing that side of them in a way that in the grand scheme of things, is a minor price to pay!

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"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!""The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

I would never worry about someone I took on who was a friend trying to sneak around paying somehow... they would be fully aware this is a business relationship, and would be held to the same standards as my other students in terms of paying, practicing, etc. (For example, lessons would cease if they "weren't able" to pay.)

That sounds simple, and maybe for some people it is.

But for most it is a bit more difficult.

For one thing, the piano teacher/student relationship is a bit hard to keep purely professional anyway. People get to know each other, lines get blurred, it becomes personal. Some teachers, especially young ones, have trouble seeing themselves as professionals performing a service and entitled to their compensation - you can see this in the uncomfortableness of some of the discussions about collecting payment, etc. You can see this in the angst involved when students move on, or teachers poach - it's not just a change of business accounts, it's loss of a relationship.

Adding preexisting friendships to the mix isn't going to make it easier.

In some professions, psychology and social work, for example, almost any dual relationship is a violation of professional ethics. In other professions it is less strictly forbidden and in still other fields, there is no problem at all. I gather that piano teachers are free to make up their own minds about the issue and I believe it is wise to consider the situation carefully before proceeding.

_________________________ Having power is not nearly as important as what you choose to do with it.â€“ Roald Dahl