So I saw a post the other day that was given by John Dehlin, a Mormon supporter who has basically screwed a bunch of the ex-mormon community.

John Dehlin has posted the following:

"To those who want to tear down religion....I say this.

My sense is that most humans want/need: 1) deep/rich social interaction and community, 2) a compelling sense of meaning/purpose, including a way to deal/cope with existential concerns and death, 3) some sort of moral "code" to live by, 4) some sort of spiritual nourishment, and 5) something (or someone) to inspire/uplift them, etc.

Consequently, I believe that the most ethical and productive efforts that we will see in the coming years will not come from those that seek to criticize, mock, or tear down religions, but instead will come from those that seek to build up (create) something that is inherently more valuable/compelling.

In short, you must strive to create/build/maintain something superior. Plain and simple.

If you can pull it off, God bless you. I (and likely God) will be your biggest fan(s). Until then, I feel like you are simply dogs barking at trains."

So here is my response:

I found JD disingenuous. 1) Deep and rich social action need not come through a church. I have done the same with social groups such as Scottish Societies or with my fencing students. One just need look. 2) My atheist friends cope just fine with death without the need for existential baggage. I am an agnostic. I believe when you die the light goes out and that is it. It makes me savour life the more. 3) Moral code does not just come from religion it comes from human nature. I prefer being ethical over moral. Religious morality allows for genocide, slavery, ill treatment of women, etc. 4) There are lots of forms of spiritual nourishment. How about reading good books? Or perhaps communing with nature. Religion does not have the monopoly on touching the "soul" of man. 5) You know what uplifts me? People like those that ran into the face of danger in Boston to help others. The man in the cowboy hat who had lost so much being there and helping the ones who were so devastatingly injured. People who go into communities and help to build up and fix up those communities. A single parent who raises a good child. A man who despite dying from cancer fights on for his family (personal experience with a friend who just died). That is what inspires me. Not a multi-million or billion dollar organization who's mission is simply to make money and not turn it over to the poor.

Now if I call out that or those organizations, and point out how they are not living up to the simplest commandment of their saviour, that is, to sell all and give it to the poor and follow him while loving neighbour as self, then so be it, I am a dog barking at a train. a train that is leading their passengers away from their saviour's mission. Read the New Testament in Greek. It is very very clear. In my estimation, pointing out difficiencies and issues is not a dog barking. It is necessary to effect change.

What I find to be most bizarre is the symbiotic relationship between the business greed of such folks like the church corporation mr dehlin and groups like sunstone is that they need each other to keep each other going and making money. The denial of just accepting the fraud and moving on is not good enough ! These folks have to have an audience and backers (especially $$ financial backers). They have a need to be seen as more knowledgeable and learned than each other.

It is a fraud and a lie but they can not just walk away. The notoriety and social order is too rewarding.

Honestly, just give me the facts. I have a brain and do not need any middleman corporation nor modern day feel good peddler named dehlin.

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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.

So I saw a post the other day that was given by John Dehlin, a Mormon supporter who has basically screwed a bunch of the ex-mormon community.

John Dehlin has posted the following:

"To those who want to tear down religion....I say this.

My sense is that most humans want/need: 1) deep/rich social interaction and community, 2) a compelling sense of meaning/purpose, including a way to deal/cope with existential concerns and death, 3) some sort of moral "code" to live by, 4) some sort of spiritual nourishment, and 5) something (or someone) to inspire/uplift them, etc.

Consequently, I believe that the most ethical and productive efforts that we will see in the coming years will not come from those that seek to criticize, mock, or tear down religions, but instead will come from those that seek to build up (create) something that is inherently more valuable/compelling.

In short, you must strive to create/build/maintain something superior. Plain and simple.

If you can pull it off, God bless you. I (and likely God) will be your biggest fan(s). Until then, I feel like you are simply dogs barking at trains."

So here is my response:

I found JD disingenuous. 1) Deep and rich social action need not come through a church. I have done the same with social groups such as Scottish Societies or with my fencing students. One just need look. 2) My atheist friends cope just fine with death without the need for existential baggage. I am an agnostic. I believe when you die the light goes out and that is it. It makes me savour life the more. 3) Moral code does not just come from religion it comes from human nature. I prefer being ethical over moral. Religious morality allows for genocide, slavery, ill treatment of women, etc. 4) There are lots of forms of spiritual nourishment. How about reading good books? Or perhaps communing with nature. Religion does not have the monopoly on touching the "soul" of man. 5) You know what uplifts me? People like those that ran into the face of danger in Boston to help others. The man in the cowboy hat who had lost so much being there and helping the ones who were so devastatingly injured. People who go into communities and help to build up and fix up those communities. A single parent who raises a good child. A man who despite dying from cancer fights on for his family (personal experience with a friend who just died). That is what inspires me. Not a multi-million or billion dollar organization who's mission is simply to make money and not turn it over to the poor.

Now if I call out that or those organizations, and point out how they are not living up to the simplest commandment of their saviour, that is, to sell all and give it to the poor and follow him while loving neighbour as self, then so be it, I am a dog barking at a train. a train that is leading their passengers away from their saviour's mission. Read the New Testament in Greek. It is very very clear. In my estimation, pointing out difficiencies and issues is not a dog barking. It is necessary to effect change.

To my surprise, I see myself agreeing with JD. Buuuuuuuuut--

Only because he is making such huge generalities (Personally I avoid generalities without exception)

I could condense hist list of five down to one:

1) Humans want to be satisfied.

What brings that satisfaction is different for everyone. Some people are satisfied by being happy, others by suffering to meet an arbitrary standard. Others are satisfied by feeling superior for one reason or another.

I don't see it as a dog barking at a train. I see it as perhaps dogs barking to warn us of predators and parasites.

It is better and more useful to create a good thing than to (only) criticize the attempts of others to do so.

I also want to point out that not everyone who criticizes Mormonism or another particular religion are only criticizing. Some simultaneously work for a better church or religion, or for something such as the Red Cross or a Hospice, only loosely if at all connected to a particular denomination.

Further, not all criticism is to tear down. A lot of critics are trying to reform, not destroy their church or faith. That should be taken into account when criticism them, yes?

On the other hand, I reject the cliches about religion killing more people than anything else, or and the myths about atheists being more tolerant or savoring life more.

What John has described is essentially what I call the Pied Piper model. John said:

"My sense is that most humans want/need: 1) deep/rich social interaction and community, 2) a compelling sense of meaning/purpose, including a way to deal/cope with existential concerns and death, 3) some sort of moral "code" to live by, 4) some sort of spiritual nourishment, and 5) something (or someone) to inspire/uplift them, etc."

My version, in light of the Pied Piper model: 1) people to fool, 2) a belief system to fool them with, 3) a list of rules to keep them in line, 4) ongoing indoctrination, 5) someone in charge who ultimately reaps the benefits.

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Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell

I am facebook friends with Dehlin but I have become increasingly bothered by his posts lately. I don't know what he is like in real life but on facebook he is sort of high on himself these days.

For an educated man Dehlin seems a bit disconnected from much of humanity. He states those that criticize religion are barking at trains and I would guess that means they will have no effect. Dogs don't stop trains so get on the train or become irrelevant. Bob Dylan would say to Dehlin, "You just want to be on the side that's winning." John loves God not because he has any proof God exists but because he thinks the ideology will ultimately win.

Dehlin might be wrong about that too. Most of the developed world has turned its back on God. Europe, Australia, and Japan are largely agnostic societies. Somehow in what he claims is an extensive study of world religions Dehlin didn't notice that the dogs have stopped the train in many places and that US train is slowly down. He also didn't notice that human moral fiber hasn't suffered in places that abandoned religion. John didn't notice that the people that leave religion are finding ways to fulfill themselves and his list of five basic human needs. Note, I didn't say that atheists are morally superior; I said their morals stand up to any group of faithful. Better to be an atheist than a Mormon or a member of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Limes is right. Dogs speak the truth and sometimes the truth sucks. I think we are all going to die and that will be the end of the story. I would rather be a voice speaking the truth even if the truth isn't very attractive. My neighbor just died of breast cancer and I was speaking to her widower. God didn't save her. Evolution didn't save her either but evolution makes sense. Evolution suggests that bad stuff happens and nobody can control it. That fits what I see in this world. A loving God that would watch a wonderful woman like my neighbor die doesn't make any sense at all.

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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.

All 5 of the basic human needs listed can be provided by a religion and all 5 can also be met through others means besides religion. Mr. Dehlin's religion, on the other hand, tells lies and he knows it, stays anyway, and tells those exposing the abuse they are ineffective.

So I saw a post the other day that was given by John Dehlin, a Mormon supporter who has basically screwed a bunch of the ex-mormon community.

John Dehlin has posted the following:

"To those who want to tear down religion....I say this.

My sense is that most humans want/need: 1) deep/rich social interaction and community, 2) a compelling sense of meaning/purpose, including a way to deal/cope with existential concerns and death, 3) some sort of moral "code" to live by, 4) some sort of spiritual nourishment, and 5) something (or someone) to inspire/uplift them, etc.

Consequently, I believe that the most ethical and productive efforts that we will see in the coming years will not come from those that seek to criticize, mock, or tear down religions, but instead will come from those that seek to build up (create) something that is inherently more valuable/compelling.

In short, you must strive to create/build/maintain something superior. Plain and simple.

If you can pull it off, God bless you. I (and likely God) will be your biggest fan(s). Until then, I feel like you are simply dogs barking at trains."

So here is my response:

I found JD disingenuous. 1) Deep and rich social action need not come through a church. I have done the same with social groups such as Scottish Societies or with my fencing students. One just need look. 2) My atheist friends cope just fine with death without the need for existential baggage. I am an agnostic. I believe when you die the light goes out and that is it. It makes me savour life the more. 3) Moral code does not just come from religion it comes from human nature. I prefer being ethical over moral. Religious morality allows for genocide, slavery, ill treatment of women, etc. 4) There are lots of forms of spiritual nourishment. How about reading good books? Or perhaps communing with nature. Religion does not have the monopoly on touching the "soul" of man. 5) You know what uplifts me? People like those that ran into the face of danger in Boston to help others. The man in the cowboy hat who had lost so much being there and helping the ones who were so devastatingly injured. People who go into communities and help to build up and fix up those communities. A single parent who raises a good child. A man who despite dying from cancer fights on for his family (personal experience with a friend who just died). That is what inspires me. Not a multi-million or billion dollar organization who's mission is simply to make money and not turn it over to the poor.

Now if I call out that or those organizations, and point out how they are not living up to the simplest commandment of their saviour, that is, to sell all and give it to the poor and follow him while loving neighbour as self, then so be it, I am a dog barking at a train. a train that is leading their passengers away from their saviour's mission. Read the New Testament in Greek. It is very very clear. In my estimation, pointing out difficiencies and issues is not a dog barking. It is necessary to effect change.

I am amused. THIS is why I left Mormonism! This!

I didn't break it down as completely and thoroughly, but I did think -- okay -- religion does certain things. It give you community and a circle of friends. It teaches ethics. It give you ceremonies to mark life's stages. It gives you a cosmic or world view.

AND I DON'T LIKE ANY OF THOSE IN MORMONISM! None of it!

I couldn't relate to the people. The ethics at the time consisted of not just withholding the priesthood from those of African descent, but harboring outright nasty racism, as well as offering me a rigid and unfulfilling gender role. The Mormon cosmos was an incoherent jumble in which women were supposed to be happy being eternally some guy's three-hundred and fourth wife. The church dinners sucked. The hymns sucked. The snooty girls my age sucked. The lessons sucked. The bigots sucked. The dim-wits sucked.

I knew damned well I could do better elsewhere, and I shrewdly guessed there were few places I could do worse.

So JD articulates well -- why I left.

In true JD form, he is right -- and he is wrong.

I do disagree he is being some pied piper. No. Not really. He is right about humans want. And as far as that goes, if someone is happy with the community, ethics, cosmos, and ceremonies of Mormonism, I wish them the best. I will try not to too obviously look down my nose at them because you can learn more ethics reading Jane Austen, find people who love you not just because they live in proximity, be comforted by sunsets, long walks, good dogs, an occasional glass of wine, good conversation, and -- wonder of wonders in America, -- a life of the mind -- among an endless list.

He is just wrong that people have to -- or will mostly continue -- to find those things in religions in general and certainly in his religion in particular. In fact, I think the future will bless those who can find those things without the baggage of religion.

I guess the sad part is that JD still doesn't know all that is out there -- in the big bad world the Mormons rejected, that JD imagines for a moment that he has the only one in town. Isn't that like imagining you are the only guy in the world -- with a dick?

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A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.Oscar Wilde

* and if you can not find this in authentic and truthfilled ways, inauthentic and false ways will suffice.

2) a compelling sense of meaning/purpose, including a way to deal/cope with existential concerns and death,

*again.. When honest ways just can not address these needs, then a myth filled approach must certainly be considered? How does a delusion help anyone deal with anything??

3) some sort of moral "code" to live by,

* as though the morals of Lucretious, Spinoza, and Gora just are not enough. Let's settle for one that includs Danites, avenging angels, polygamy, and the Corporation of the President for the Church of J C o L D S. Apparantly ANY moral code will do (moral relativism anyone?). By this reasoning the Westboro Baptists would do just a fine and dandy job.

4) some sort of spiritual nourishment,

* yes, awe and wonder of the numinise within reality just falls short. We need santa, yaweh, allah, vishnu, and elohim. The wonder and awe induced by nature just is not enough without the wrappings and finery of myth and bullshit?

and

5) something (or someone) to inspire/uplift them, etc.

* yes the love of family, independent thought, observance of the human condition across all cultures, social strata, economic conditions, and plain reality just do not quite cut if for John.

HH =)

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Atheism is the arrogant belief that the universe was NOT created for us.

Many things thought to stem from religious beliefs, such as well-being or prosocial behavior are often due to purely secular factors. -Galen

A Three Hour Bore:
All 5 of the basic human needs listed can be provided by a religion and all 5 can also be met through others means besides religion. Mr. Dehlin's religion, on the other hand, tells lies and he knows it, stays anyway, and tells those exposing the abuse they are ineffective.

I'll add that the LDS religion is not only NOT inclusive, a big part of its business model for retaining members deliberately creates disharmony in families and makes it harder for members of society to get along and understand each other's perspective.

I am facebook friends with Dehlin but I have become increasingly bothered by his posts lately. I don't know what he is like in real life but on facebook he is sort of high on himself these days.

I'm FB friends with him too. One time he posted his cell # on FB and said he was on a long drive and now would be a good time to chat if anybody wanted, so I called him and asked him and chatted. He told me he was somewhat active at the time. I asked him how he counteracted the church indoctrinating his kids with things he knew were false. He told me that he and his wife have open and honest communication with their kids and they do a pretty good job of making sure their kids are not being indoctrinated with things they reject and that their association with other members made putting up with the nuttier aspects of the gospel worth it.

I told him I couldn't do it.

I couldn't look my son in the eye and tell him he was wrong when he asked me, "Well Dad, if that's how you really feel about Joseph's Myth, then why do you continue pretending like you believe by showing up to church every Sunday?"
I had to admit that he was right, I had to live my life with more integrity.

For an educated man Dehlin seems a bit disconnected from much of humanity. He states those that criticize religion are barking at trains and I would guess that means they will have no effect. Dogs don't stop trains so get on the train or become irrelevant. Bob Dylan would say to Dehlin, "You just want to be on the side that's winning." John loves God not because he has any proof God exists but because he thinks the ideology will ultimately win.

Exactly.

He put his money on the whole appocalyptic meta narrative of Joseph's Myth will win in end and once Jesus shows up, we'll all be living the United Order.

He's dead wrong about that.

Christ is long over due and if past failed prophecies are any indication, he's not coming back.

Dehlin might be wrong about that too. Most of the developed world has turned its back on God. Europe, Australia, and Japan are largely agnostic societies. Somehow in what he claims is an extensive study of world religions Dehlin didn't notice that the dogs have stopped the train in many places and that US train is slowly down. He also didn't notice that human moral fiber hasn't suffered in places that abandoned religion. John didn't notice that the people that leave religion are finding ways to fulfill themselves and his list of five basic human needs. Note, I didn't say that atheists are morally superior; I said their morals stand up to any group of faithful. Better to be an atheist than a Mormon or a member of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Limes is right. Dogs speak the truth and sometimes the truth sucks. I think we are all going to die and that will be the end of the story. I would rather be a voice speaking the truth even if the truth isn't very attractive. My neighbor just died of breast cancer and I was speaking to her widower. God didn't save her. Evolution didn't save her either but evolution makes sense. Evolution suggests that bad stuff happens and nobody can control it. That fits what I see in this world. A loving God that would watch a wonderful woman like my neighbor die doesn't make any sense at all.

She's pretty much of a pantheist and doesn't believe in a personal 'God', but she give thanks to the 'Great Spirit' or 'Source' and asks for blessings from the same source. She's got no problem with dying, she just doesn't want to live with the pain the rest of her life. Thankfully there are good drugs for that, but they dull the mind and make you a whole lot less productive, which is better than not living.

She believes in an afterlife, but she just thinks we'll be pure energy in the next life.
I've got no problem with that concept, since I'm more of a Taoist/Dudeist these days than just about anything, meaning the divine and the ordinary are one.

Honestly I believe that we're all recycled after we die.

We turn into the most valuable and indispensible thing on the planet, worm shit.

Then we get recycled into trees, plants, food, animals, and the cycle of life continues.

I believe that our genes continue on and that we're just one more generation in a long line of evolution.

Everything works out for the best in the end.

It's ok.

At least that's what I keep telling her and it brings her comfort, which is all I can do for her at this point, that and be her slave so I capture as much of her genius and beauty as I can as long as there is a spark of life left in her.

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“It is time we realized that the endgame for civilization is not political correctness. It is not respect for the abject religious certainties of the mob. It is reason.”
Sam Harris

God love ya, JD. And does God still discipline those that he truly loves? At least I'm not the only one that hates liars.

The lousy LDS attempts continuing to try and pretend large lies could
perhaps successfully be managed with the generous spreading of more
foggy Mormon untruths is surely building the makings for quite a
historic fiasco.

Making it further impossible to ever be trusted again, and this is precisely the building LDS Tension.

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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live

-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live

I've been following this story for a while on this board and others. I was having problems trying to express my unhappiness with all of this.

On the one hand. Everyone is entitled to their own free agency. As such as much as I can do as I please John is free to do the same.

On the other hand John has become the prodigal son. The son who returns. The son the church can show its members to say look even a publicly anknowledged apostate can return. They can do so not because John quietly returned and simply sat in the pews but instead did so VERY publicly. Kind of like performing a charitable act only so one can draw attention to himself not because any real charity. Fake, disengenous, misleading, dishonest, questionable etc, etc, etc.

You can think what you want about John Dehlin, but his "Mormon Stories" podcast has covered some amazing territory, initiated valuable conversations, and overall has done a world of good.

Whether he's a coward or not isn't for me to judge. We are all at where we are, and where we are today isn't necessarily where we'll be tomorrow. I cringe to think how I sometimes behaved as a TBM.

This has always been my defense of John Dehlin.

I hate the Church. I think it is a horrible organization and I would love to see it implode. It is my uneducated and uninformed opinion that the church is not hurt so much by amazing critics like John Larsen, Jeff Ricks, David Twede, NewNameNoah (Okay maybe NNN f-d with them a little)... Christ's corporation is hurt much more by opportunistic NOMS like John Dehlin.

He no doubt makes the church look bad when he is critical of the church. But more importantly John Dehlin has the rare ability to even make the church look bad when he is supportive of the Morg. The apologists were and are absolutely right to be very concerned about JD and to do everything they can to warn the true believers about him. He is poison for the church. Therefore I love the lying, double speaking, duplicitous (as Jeff Ricks correctly named him on Facebook) sometimes sincere but most times not John Dehlin.

God Bless you John Dehlin and keep fighting the good fight even if you don't intend to be a warrior for the cause.

You can think what you want about John Dehlin, but his "Mormon Stories" podcast has covered some amazing territory, initiated valuable conversations, and overall has done a world of good.

Whether he's a coward or not isn't for me to judge. We are all at where we are, and where we are today isn't necessarily where we'll be tomorrow. I cringe to think how I sometimes behaved as a TBM.

Jammerwoch brings up another point that I wanted to address.

I have heard many ex-mormons call JD a coward. I just don't see that.

I watched a friend fight in an ameture mma fight. He was getting his ass kicked horribly and started screaming for the ref to get the guy off him. A guy in the crowd called my buddy a pussy. Of course this guy had never gotten in the ring and put himself in a position to take a public ass kicking. It is easy to stand on the sidelines and call someone in the ring a pussy. I sometimes doubt JD's motives, but ultimately respect his balls for putting himself out there regardless of his motives.

You can think what you want about John Dehlin, but his "Mormon Stories" podcast has covered some amazing territory, initiated valuable conversations, and overall has done a world of good.

Whether he's a coward or not isn't for me to judge. We are all at where we are, and where we are today isn't necessarily where we'll be tomorrow. I cringe to think how I sometimes behaved as a TBM.

Jammerwoch brings up another point that I wanted to address.

I have heard many ex-mormons call JD a coward. I just don't see that.

I watched a friend fight in an ameture mma fight. He was getting his ass kicked horribly and started screaming for the ref to get the guy off him. A guy in the crowd called my buddy a pussy. Of course this guy had never gotten in the ring and put himself in a position to take a public ass kicking. It is easy to stand on the sidelines and call someone in the ring a pussy. I sometimes doubt JD's motives, but ultimately respect his balls for putting himself out there regardless of his motives.

Here I am repeating what I have already said before. Knowing facts [especially the facts dealing with MMM and various blood atonement, danite and body guard murders ... on and on and on...] and yet sustaining and supporting the Hoax jd is basically enabling the guilt and fear that the church corporation is GUILTY of. In other words jd knows those facts but is merrily, just fine, A-OK, with accepting that those things do not matter. I submit that yes he is a coward in not defending those innocent people that were murdered, taken advantage of, castrated, defiled, bilked, etc... When I bring up such murderous facts to tbm's they at some point will cower and say that it is behind us, that was a long time ago. I do not support the cult especially because I am not a coward and I am being true to myself. Atrocities done in the name of god need the support and continued enablement by folks like jd I presume. His business income does appear to be his moral priority in my perspective. Ass kicked? He has found a business niche and he is doing as the nut does when it falls not far from the tree. Grows another tree soaking up the nutrients and resources available.

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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.

Everything must be "Twilight" perfect with all the butterflies...Tinker-bells and whistles...all romanticized.

The church tries to present itself as this Cinderella, Snow White, Prince Charming wonderland of angelic family and celestial life-style on earth...and in the next life.

John wants it to be that way so badly...and is promised all that (probably with a guaranteed 2nd endowment in his back pocket) by his GA friends.

Keep dreaming, John....you keep waking up and falling asleep.

Maybe you suffer from LDS church sleep-apnea.

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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin

You can think what you want about John Dehlin, but his "Mormon Stories" podcast has covered some amazing territory, initiated valuable conversations, and overall has done a world of good.

Whether he's a coward or not isn't for me to judge. We are all at where we are, and where we are today isn't necessarily where we'll be tomorrow. I cringe to think how I sometimes behaved as a TBM.

Jammerwoch brings up another point that I wanted to address.

I have heard many ex-mormons call JD a coward. I just don't see that.

I watched a friend fight in an ameture mma fight. He was getting his ass kicked horribly and started screaming for the ref to get the guy off him. A guy in the crowd called my buddy a pussy. Of course this guy had never gotten in the ring and put himself in a position to take a public ass kicking. It is easy to stand on the sidelines and call someone in the ring a pussy. I sometimes doubt JD's motives, but ultimately respect his balls for putting himself out there regardless of his motives.

I agree with Jammerwoch that judgment of JD or anyone else doesn't really serve a positive purpose. Granted we can judge his public words but they have an effect. lately he has leaned a bit toward dishonesty. I can't speak to his motivations.

..... I don't know about this analogy in reference to JD and many people here. I have seen people take vastly grander beatings than JD in the pursuit of an honest life. I don't care if it's done in the public arena, if your wife leaves you and your kids hate you, you took a beating for the truth. Hundreds of people here have scars from fights worse then JD has had the guts to fight so far.

I would turn your metaphor around. Postmormon is full, literally chock full of people willing to go into the ring and take a beating for truth. As I see it, your metaphor if the most important thing to you is that you stay in the church, you already tapped out before you even started the match. John talks and talks but changes his story when the going gets tough.

Most of us have been in the ring. The ass kickings are real. Some of us even kicked ass ourselves.

Lately John has made statements like the one in the OP that insult those that choose to leave. He also recently said that he doesn't leave because people that leave do so to pursue polyamorous relationships (Swinging). I find that friggin insulting.

I realize John has done some good things. I also understand that I don't know his rationale for the nasty turns and accusations he has taken lately. Yet they are nasty turns and it would appear they were done to save his skin from actually getting into the ring.

John said one needs religion to have a moral code and his absurdities didn't stop there. He may have decent reasons for what he does but I can't take him seriously anymore.

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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.

I knew JD fairly well. I always thought that if anyone could walk the so-called "Middle Path", JD could. But his recent about face has left even myself mystified.

I still contend that he is not now a "born-again believer", but an opportunist. Walking down the "Believing" path gives him 2 primary opportunities. First, to revitalize family relationships that depend upon the faith. And second, to further his new career. Either way, some of the accusations he has made are mind-boggling and hypocritical.

You can think what you want about John Dehlin, but his "Mormon Stories" podcast has covered some amazing territory, initiated valuable conversations, and overall has done a world of good.

Whether he's a coward or not isn't for me to judge. We are all at where we are, and where we are today isn't necessarily where we'll be tomorrow. I cringe to think how I sometimes behaved as a TBM.

Jammerwoch brings up another point that I wanted to address.

I have heard many ex-mormons call JD a coward. I just don't see that.

I watched a friend fight in an ameture mma fight. He was getting his ass kicked horribly and started screaming for the ref to get the guy off him. A guy in the crowd called my buddy a pussy. Of course this guy had never gotten in the ring and put himself in a position to take a public ass kicking. It is easy to stand on the sidelines and call someone in the ring a pussy. I sometimes doubt JD's motives, but ultimately respect his balls for putting himself out there regardless of his motives.

I've never seen Dehlin honestly take responsibility for things he has said or done when challenged to do so. He will to a point, but when facts fail him he simply disappears and, if it's within his control he deletes all evidence of the challenge and any evidence of his past statements that were brought into question. His most recent example was in a facebook discussion where I told him I could no longer believe a word he says because he has lied too many times in the past. He asked me to name when and how he lied to me. I pressed him to explain what he thinks is a lie and what's not. He responded with a standard definition but added a question mark at the end. I asked if he was asking me if that was the right definition or if he was telling me that was his definition. He never responded. It's not the first time he's done that to me. The next day he shut down his entire facebook account. That does not come across to me as someone who has courage. Yes, John gets in the ring, but he runs when the knows he's going to be on the losing end of the battle.

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Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell

I saw that discussion, Jeff, and drew the same conclusion. He posted something that pretty much implied that communities like Mormon Expression are ineffective. Then he commented in the aforementioned thread of John Larsen's saying no harm meant, look at all the good you do. Which is it?

A Three Hour Bore:
I saw that discussion, Jeff, and drew the same conclusion. He posted something that pretty much implied that communities like Mormon Expression are ineffective. Then he commented in the aforementioned thread of John Larsen's saying no harm meant, look at all the good you do. Which is it?

Thanks for your feedback, THB. It's good to know there are witnesses here.

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Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell

Once JD saw the "Wicked City Women" he was told about his entire Mormon Life he ran back home because it scared him so much.

The question that came to me is that at one of his gallivanting conferences of supposed inclusion was he propositioned with a very personal tempting sexual offer? He got scared of saying yes to an open story with a nice foundation? Fear whether real or imagined is a motivator. Did becoming a mormon stories gawd make him look in the mirror ? It isn't the wicked women he saw it was himself he saw I would presume. Now, just like when momma gets a chill all the children have to put on a sweater too. Nice counselor/therapist profession there jd. lol

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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.