The measure — set to take effect in late July or early August — would make it a crime under state law to be in the U.S. illegally.

Really make something that is illegal a crime... go figure.

The tricky part comes in when they enforce it. Do I want the police able to stop any person of Mexican decent walking down the street, of course not. However these states need to do something in order to even survive. Arizona has one of the worst budget problems in the country. Escalating education and medicaid costs (read: out of control from immigrants) as well as the housing crisis (read: out of control Americans) has that state in bad shape.

What else are they supposed to do? I am with CDT on the 4th amendment, but 70% of Arizonians (Arizonites?) don't.

The measure — set to take effect in late July or early August — would make it a crime under state law to be in the U.S. illegally.

Really make something that is illegal a crime... go figure.

The tricky part comes in when they enforce it. Do I want the police able to stop any person of Mexican decent walking down the street, of course not. However these states need to do something in order to even survive. Arizona has one of the worst budget problems in the country. Escalating education and medicaid costs (read: out of control from immigrants) as well as the housing crisis (read: out of control Americans) has that state in bad shape.

What else are they supposed to do? I am with CDT on the 4th amendment, but 70% of Arizonians (Arizonites?) don't.

i'm not cool with cops being able to stop anyone any time they want. i guess i would rather see the feds do more to make the border impenetrable. i know that's not 100% possible but it's better than a police state situation.

"Meh. Calling me names on the internet is really no big deal, happens all the time." - e0y2e3

My favorite part about this whole thing. Citizens suing their own police departments if they don't enforce the rules how they think they should.

There's also disagreement on the potential effect of the law's provisions that allow citizens to sue any agency or official who "limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws." Some fear that those provisions will bring a flood of court cases against cops and elected officials, but Livingston says the law has enough protections against frivolous lawsuits. Phil Gordon, the mayor of Phoenix who calls SB1070 a "hateful law," disagrees, saying that even seemingly unrelated city ordinances, like the one that prevents high-speed chases in residential neighborhoods, could lead to lawsuits if they even once impede the apprehension of a suspected illegal immigrant

Even with the un-named protections against frivolous lawsuits, there are going to tidal waves of lawsuits in AZ, from both angles.

Brewer has ordered state officials to develop a training course for officers to learn what constitutes reasonable suspicion that someone is in the U.S. illegally.

This is pretty funny too. I have no idea how the hell they can define "reasonable suspicion". What makes a illgeal look more suspicious than a legal? I don't think they really thought this through, and it's going to come back to bite them in the ass when they're being sued by legal residents for having their rights violated, and when the Feds refuse to take custody of anyone caught up in the dragnet.

Also this picture makes me laugh. John McCain in a Sombrero with "Arizona's last line of defense.. You've got to be joking!!!" written on it.

McCain has NEVER been against illegal immigration...and he's no friend of Vets either

States rights under the banner of The Republic known as the Stars and Stripes or, secession for fisal survival?

My sincere apologies to the politically correct. You're compassion for these criminals and concern for your own interpretations of the Constitution is much appreciated but, the reality is, there are no other choices

Illegal immigration is a festering boil in need of getting scoured. Its why I moved back East. They breed like rats and bring their filth with them and listening to people from the N or NE voice opinion on how Arizona should deal with them is great reading

Go thru 'the system' or, get rid of 'the system' and everyone associated with it for it is Epic National Fail

"Carry on"

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I never said anything on how they should handle their problem, so i'm not sure who you're speaking at, or if you're just talking in generalities. I just don't see how they can enforce it. That's all.

Apparently nobody wants to be a Border Patrol Agent.

Generalities mostly but, you really have to live in that environment to appreciate the need for the new law.

My point is the only way it can be enforced is by profiling....too bad for the profiled

Cop asks you for ID, you present it, end of story, have a nice day sir!

Also, if you don't speak English you can't be a citizen, right?.......[huge snickering]

It is after all a requirement for citizenship

Right there you have 2 simple ways of addressing it and no one is harmed 'cept for an ego

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Even with the un-named protections against frivolous lawsuits, there are going to tidal waves of lawsuits in AZ, from both angles.

Agree with this. They need to get that out of the bill. If you pick a fight with an illegal immigrant and he whips your ass, then you sue the police department??? That ain't right.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is pretty funny too. I have no idea how the hell they can define "reasonable suspicion". What makes a illgeal look more suspicious than a legal? I don't think they really thought this through, and it's going to come back to bite them in the ass when they're being sued by legal residents for having their rights violated, and when the Feds refuse to take custody of anyone caught up in the dragnet.

As someone who has lived in Houston and still visits there quite often, I can tell you that at times it is not as difficult as you'd think to distinguish legals from illegals. Now certainly you wouldn't be able to tell 100% of the time. There are areas where the illegals congregate: gas stations, abandoned parking lots, church parking lots, donut shops in the afternoons (the donut shops close at 1 or 2pm so the owners aren't there to chase the Mexicans away). If you go to fill up your tank at one of these stations, a guy will slowly approach your car and say "trabajo". If you have a pickup truck and you go to fill up your tank, you'll have about 40 of them trying to be the first to make eye contact with you to see if you want them to jump in the back and go do some work.

Anyways my reaction to this law is that people down on the border are so f'n fed up with Washington not caring about the situation, that they finally decided to do something about it themselves. These people have been begging for better border security and they've been ignored. Some of these people with ranches are discovering dead bodies on their property! I think one guy last year got threatened with prosecution (not sure if they ever followed through on the threat) for rounding a few of them up as they crossed his land. So our government is not just ignoring the Americans, but threatening to label them as criminals? I don't think this law is the right answer, but Arizona is fed up with D.C.'s failure to do anything so they took a step that they felt was necessary. 70% of Arizonans are in favor of a piece of legislation that is borderline racist and unconstitutional! These people aren't in favor of it because they are racist, they are in favor of it because they think it's necessary to save their state.

"And three of the better guys in franchise history, Daugherty, Z and now Kyrie could get hurt in a rubber room full of cotton balls." - Leadpipe

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Should illegals be protected by the 4th Amendment? Prolly not. But if, I'm a US citizen and they ask me for papers without cause, and I refuse and am detained, I think I've got a case.

While I don't agree with how far-reaching this legislation is, I will give kudos to the Arizona people to forcing this issue on the front pages. Sometimes you've to over-reach to get noticed (see Denver's 1st Rd. pick). It's a serious issue (immigration reform, not Tebow) that must be dealt with- just maybe not like this.

Hopefully the powers that be can work toward a solution that is centrist. Sadly, this isn't how most issues are handled these days. It's a choose a side and cry world...

I think when it comes to the Feds they ignored the problem for decades, but i'm not sure what can be done now, the jug is broken and can't be fixed. There aren't enough BPAs, for whatever reasons it's not job people want to do. No president on either side will EVER put Troops on the border... Ever.

I'd bet top dollar that the first time a legal US Citizen is harrassed by the cops on some BS "suspicion" claim, the state will be sued, and they will lose. Plus the local and state cops must turn the illegals over to the Feds to be deported, which the Feds can refuse leaving the bag still in the state's lap and wallet.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Should illegals be protected by the 4th Amendment? Prolly not. But if, I'm a US citizen and they ask me for papers without cause, and I refuse and am detained, I think I've got a case.

While I don't agree with how far-reaching this legislation is, I will give kudos to the Arizona people to forcing this issue on the front pages. Sometimes you've to over-reach to get noticed (see Denver's 1st Rd. pick). It's a serious issue (immigration reform, not Tebow) that must be dealt with- just maybe not like this.

Hopefully the powers that be can work toward a solution that is centrist. Sadly, this isn't how most issues are handled these days. It's a choose a side and cry world...

Illegals are absolutely not protected, but it all comes down to how you distinguish between legal and illegal. And yeah, you would most certainly have a case if they violate the 4th Amendment. Which would probably be unavoidable in AZ.

Others, like Mexican day laborer Jesus Aguilar, 52, say the measure leaves them few options but to leave Arizona and try their luck elsewhere.

"Since the law says that people hiring undocumented day laborers will get fined, no-one wants to (hire) us," said Aguilar, who early on Monday was among some two dozen migrants touting for landscaping and building work at a day labor site in north Phoenix.

"We are thinking of going to Utah or New Mexico ... Here it is just too racist," he added.

Yes, that's it Jesus, people in Arizona are racist... or maybe they just dont want illegals in their state...

"What is a father to do if, in 90 days, they can be stopped by any police officer and questioned ... when their family is at home and their kids in school?" said Elias Bermudez, the founder of Phoenix nonprofit Immigrants Without Borders.

"That's going to create havoc, so a lot of them are saying, 'Look, before they pick me up, I'd rather leave the state of Arizona either to another state or back home,'" he added.

It appears it will work on some with out even having to start searching. Oh and Elias, do those illegals pay taxes for their kids to be in school? Just curious.

For Mexican day laborer Rodolfo Espinoza, meanwhile, it was simply time to go back home to work as a fisherman on the Pacific coast of northwest Mexico, where he has a wife and four children.

"This new law gives us no other option than to leave ... I'm going back to Mexico, where I feel more comfortable," he added.

Yes, the answer to the budget problems that illegal immigrants cause is to put them into state prisons, with state-funding food and medical care. Arizona cannot deport them, and will be forced to put them up somewhere until DHS gets around to processing their deportations, if they even bother. Makes perfect sense to me. What happens to the children who are here illegally as well?

jfiling wrote:Yes, the answer to the budget problems that illegal immigrants cause is to put them into state prisons, with state-funding food and medical care. Arizona cannot deport them, and will be forced to put them up somewhere until DHS gets around to processing their deportations, if they even bother. Makes perfect sense to me. What happens to the children who are here illegally as well?

jfiling wrote:Yes, the answer to the budget problems that illegal immigrants cause is to put them into state prisons, with state-funding food and medical care. Arizona cannot deport them, and will be forced to put them up somewhere until DHS gets around to processing their deportations, if they even bother. Makes perfect sense to me. What happens to the children who are here illegally as well?

Deportation is unrealistic albeit extremely desired, but it wouldn't be as hard as most think, illegal aliens gather themselves up once or twice a year in the thousands. We've got hundreds of truck drivers out of work, hundreds of trucks parked...do the math.

The real solution to this problem would most likely require a constitutional amendment, in which it a requirement that at least one parent of anyone born on U.S. soil is in fact a U.S. citizen. Eliminates the anchor baby problem for one. Then we need to look at the laws that we ourselves have enacted such as free education for illegal aliens. There are kids on E55th that don't get an education but we're educating anchor babies and illegal aliens for free?

As far as Arizona, there are safeguards and guidelines in place to help ensure things get done correctly and lawfully. Of course there will be a problem at some point, nothing is absolute. Besides looking at things in the correct context helps as well. It would be more understandable if a law like this was criticized here in NEO as opposed to Arizona. Two totally different worlds when it comes to this issue.

In the end the 4th amendment has nothing to do with this as far as illegal aliens go.This is simply a battle of attrition, and enforcing laws already on the books could do the trick, we just don't have the guts to do it.

There is one important thing to remember about immigration, immigration is designed to serve the very needs of the nation, not the wants of the world.

America is for Americans first. Immigration is not a "right" that belongs to anybody and everybody who wants to come to America. Immigration is a privilege that we Americans alone decide to confer.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

In the end the 4th amendment has nothing to do with this as far as illegal aliens go.

It does when you don't define "reasonable suspicion". American's shouldn't have their rights infringed upon just because they look like illegals, which will happen.

America is for Americans first. Immigration is not a "right" that belongs to anybody and everybody who wants to come to America. Immigration is a privilege that we Americans alone decide to confer.

Really? What tribe do you belong to?

Illegals aliens are not Americans, so I am not really concerned if they feel as if they are being infringed upon. I addressed the fact that somebody legitimately will though, there is no way around that sadly, regardless of the law or issue it addresses. People don't have too much a problem with others getting pulled over for no reason when it comes to DUI checkpoints do they? Besides you might not know this but LE has been asking people for identification for decades under the guise of "suspicion" & "reasonable cause", now it's big problem?

The whole notion that we "need" illegal aliens and the cheap labor they bring is a complete myth. If every single illegal alien disappeared tomorrow it would have short term effects that might or might not fall under the category of almost significant. You probably think your fruit & veggies would sky rocket in price too, always love that argument coming from a country that doesn't even eat the stuff anymore according to every other edition of Time magazine.

In regards to your last comment, why does it have to do with being in a tribe? CDT you ignore the context of the matter completely.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:America is for Americans first. Immigration is not a "right" that belongs to anybody and everybody who wants to come to America. Immigration is a privilege that we Americans alone decide to confer.

Tell that to all the Europeans who decided this was their land, and not the people who had lived here unmolested for thousands of years.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:We all came from immigrants, what makes us so superior to a fruit picker in Florida? Every negative thing people say about Mexicans, has probably been said your relatives and my relatives.

FTR. I like having this debate with you FUDU, I was looking forward to you joining in. You're good at defending your points, which believe it or not, I do get.

I understand and respect the point about "we all come from immigrants". But it still requires the correct context. My family heritage is mostly Irish and German, but I am an American, make no mistake about. I have no problem with other people celebrating their roots but to be honest how can I sincerely call myself anything other than American when I have not experience what it is like to be Irish or German, never experienced their land or culture in person. Just b/c I've been to some cultural festivals and got plastered doesn't quire cut it. I think you know where I am coming from on this.

Immigration today is 100% different than it was during the great wave and the decades to soon follow. That is part of the context I speak of. This country needed immigration in it's adolescence, but we are far removed from that status and those days. Immigration from yesterday is virtually irrelevant to our country as it is today, w/exception to its place in history. We went from being an adolescent country to being the biggest grown up on the block almost over night. We do not NEED the immigration we are getting today. Today's immigration is 65-70% from a third world country, that wasn't the case 60-100 years ago. It would require more time to get deep into that right now, let alone the issue of assimilation.

FTR I am not speaking negatively of the Mexican people as a whole, my beef in regards to this issue is get in line like everybody else. WE have the most liberal and generous immigration policy on the planet, we virtually turn nobody away. So the world can spare me the "your system is broken" crap. Broken in the eyes of who, them? Our system is run and should be run as WE see fit, hence it being OUR system. But yeah I agree the system needs some tweaking, for our benefit and for the benefit of immigrants willing to take part in the process.

FTR I am cool with talking this over with you as well. I thought about staying away as this is an issue I am involved in on a couple levels, but to be honest it was one of your replies in which I said I just can't stay away. Eat your heart out JB.

Last edited by FUDU on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

My great grandparents (dad's side) left Germany in 1938 because some friends of my grandfather blew up a Nazi rail stop that killed 2 SS men and wounded several others. The Nazis caught his friends, hung them in a meat locker, then cut them with straight razors and rubbed salt into the wounds, that's when my grandfather decided it was probably best to leave.

My mom's side has been here since the late 1800's, they came here "illegaly" through Canada.

Well shit, lets just let everyone in who wants to be. Let's take all the poor in the world, let them come here, add nothing to society except getting free health care and education and be ok with it.

There is a process to come to this country. I don't understand why if you are Cuban, Mexican, or from any other country where you can come here ILLEGALLY we are all of a sudden turning on our past if we want to stop it. There is still plenty of legal immigration in this country. I am not sure why we should give special treatment to those who come here illegally while people who want to come through the proper channels have to sit here and wait.

Additionally when people from Europe immigrated here didn't they need to show that they had some sort of skill to be able to enter? I can't really find anything definitive on it, but Wiki backs it up as well as a little note about us turning away the sick and diseased... far worse than we are doing now, which is giving them free health care.

Yes it is wiki, but food for thought. It isnt like we just let anyone in who wanted in.

Generally, those immigrants who were approved spent from two to five hours at Ellis Island. Arrivals were asked 29 questions including name, occupation, and the amount of money carried. Those with visible health problems or diseases were sent home or held in the island's hospital facilities for long periods of time. More than three thousand would-be immigrants died on Ellis Island while being held in the hospital facilities. Some unskilled workers were rejected because they were considered "likely to become a public charge." About 2 percent were denied admission to the U.S. and sent back to their countries of origin for reasons such as having a chronic contagious disease, criminal background, or insanity. Ellis Island was sometimes known as "The Island of Tears" or "Heartbreak Island" because of those 2% who were not admitted after the long transatlantic voyage. The Kissing Post is a wooden column outside the Registry Room, where new arrivals were greeted by their relatives and friends, typically with tears, hugs and kisses.

My great grandparents (dad's side) left Germany in 1938 because some friends of my grandfather blew up a Nazi rail stop that killed 2 SS men and wounded several others. The Nazis caught his friends, hung them in a meat locker, then cut them with straight razors and rubbed salt into the wounds, that's when my grandfather decided it was probably best to leave.

My mom's side has been here since the late 1800's, they came here "illegaly" through Canada.

It was a joke obviously, but that is a hell of a story. I can not imagine living in Germany or most of Europe during all that.

My great-great-grandparents sent my great-grandfather and all of his brothers and sisters to the US or Argentina as World War I was breaking out. I never knew him but I could not even imagine coming to the US knowing no one, not speaking the language, and making a go of it. Sure glad he did though.

Ziner wrote:Well shit, lets just let everyone in who wants to be. Let's take all the poor in the world, let them come here, add nothing to society except getting free health care and education and be ok with it.

Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country. It's also strange how each new immigration scare happens to target some particular ethnic group (not necessarily in order, but: Chinese, Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians, and Middle Easterners) who are responsible for some new social ill (drugs, laziness, taking our jobs, opening up too many convenience stores). Mexicans are just the latest wop, mick, dothead, slant, and towelhead, and at some point this shit has to stop.

My great grandparents (dad's side) left Germany in 1938 because some friends of my grandfather blew up a Nazi rail stop that killed 2 SS men and wounded several others. The Nazis caught his friends, hung them in a meat locker, then cut them with straight razors and rubbed salt into the wounds, that's when my grandfather decided it was probably best to leave.

My mom's side has been here since the late 1800's, they came here "illegaly" through Canada.

It was a joke obviously, but that is a hell of a story. I can not imagine living in Germany or most of Europe during all that.

My great-great-grandparents sent my great-grandfather and all of his brothers and sisters to the US or Argentina as World War I was breaking out. I never knew him but I could not even imagine coming to the US knowing no one, not speaking the language, and making a go of it. Sure glad he did though.

Ziner wrote:Well shit, lets just let everyone in who wants to be. Let's take all the poor in the world, let them come here, add nothing to society except getting free health care and education and be ok with it.

Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country. It's also strange how each new immigration scare happens to target some particular ethnic group (not necessarily in order, but: Chinese, Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians, and Middle Easterners) who are responsible for some new social ill (drugs, laziness, taking our jobs, opening up too many convenience stores). Mexicans are just the latest wop, mick, dothead, slant, and towelhead, and at some point this shit has to stop.

Dont you think at least part of the the laws in Arizona have to do with the fact that they are ILLEGAL? I am not the biggest history buff, but I don't remember those other ethnicities coming illegally.

That is my dad's side, came from Czechslovakia. My mom's side is German and Irish. But the Germans came around 1900 or so because my grandfather was born in the US in 1906 so I dont think they were running Nazi's, unfortunately I was never old enough to get the whole story from my grandparents.

jfiling wrote:Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country.

Not really. The population wasn't paying out the nose of immigrants back in the day, you see. There was no welfare, no free emergency-room visits, no free education, no free lunches, no safety net whatsoever. Made them a lot cheaper to take in. Entire states were not being bankrupted by a parasitical immigrant class, as California is right now.

You want to let every third-world peasant into this country who wants to? Dismantle the welfare structure that allows these people to treat the country like termites treat a wooden house and we'll talk.

jfiling wrote:Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country.

Not really. The population wasn't paying out the nose of immigrants back in the day, you see. There was no welfare, no free emergency-room visits, no free education, no free lunches, no safety net whatsoever. Made them a lot cheaper to take in. Entire states were not being bankrupted by a parasitical immigrant class, as California is right now.

You want to let every third-world peasant into this country who wants to? Dismantle the welfare structure that allows these people to treat the country like termites treat a wooden house and we'll talk.

No problem. Even though the fears you mentioned:

1) Shouldn't even exist, because this country is becoming so goddamned socialist.

2) Are a bad caricature of the current "immigration fear", along the lines of when the Chinese immigrants were using opium to corrupt our good white women.

Ziner wrote:Well shit, lets just let everyone in who wants to be. Let's take all the poor in the world, let them come here, add nothing to society except getting free health care and education and be ok with it.

Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country. It's also strange how each new immigration scare happens to target some particular ethnic group (not necessarily in order, but: Chinese, Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians, and Middle Easterners) who are responsible for some new social ill (drugs, laziness, taking our jobs, opening up too many convenience stores). Mexicans are just the latest wop, mick, dothead, slant, and towelhead, and at some point this shit has to stop.

I believe Herm addressed this (I admittedly skimmed his post, no offense Herm) but again somebody is missing or ignoring the context of today's immigration. Completely different situations and circumstances in history.

Thing is jfiling this is not "a scare" this is real, maybe you are not as aware b/c you don't live in the midst of this. Do you like having access to working hospitals in your community, well so do the people in SoCal, but guess what, they don't get that anymore like they did just 5-10 years ago, that is just one small example. But to your overall point, immigration has a history of taking place in waves in regards to the demographics of the immigrants. It is just the nature of the beast, especially with our country.

The big difference with today's immigration (especially illegal immigration) is that IT IS wave of people from a third world country, in which in many cases they are diseased and in most cases they are low skilled or unskilled. So, um, where is the benefit? You know why they are most often unskilled, b/c Mexico has a terrible education system, why should that be the fault of you or me? Why should you or I be responsible for making up for that short coming? No where else on the planet does a 1st world country border a 3rd world country like this. That is a big reason for all of this no doubt.

I've probably asked you this before, most likely with no response (b/c there is no response other than the obvious) would you let just anybody enter your home? Then why would you let just anybody enter your country.

ETA: jfiling I know you are a man with concerns about our economy, well then why defend a defenseless issue like this? Illegal immigration has been shown to have a negative net impact on our economy. World renown immigration economist has even backed that up with studies and op-ed, and he has always been a tough nut to crack.

Last edited by FUDU on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Ziner wrote:Well shit, lets just let everyone in who wants to be. Let's take all the poor in the world, let them come here, add nothing to society except getting free health care and education and be ok with it.

Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country. It's also strange how each new immigration scare happens to target some particular ethnic group (not necessarily in order, but: Chinese, Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians, and Middle Easterners) who are responsible for some new social ill (drugs, laziness, taking our jobs, opening up too many convenience stores). Mexicans are just the latest wop, mick, dothead, slant, and towelhead, and at some point this shit has to stop.

I believe Herm addressed this (I admittedly skimmed his post, no offense Herm) but again somebody is missing or ignoring the context of today's immigration. Completely different situations and circumstances in history.

Thing is jfiling this is not "a scare" this is real, maybe you are not as aware b/c you don't live in the midst of this. Do you like having access to working hospitals in your community, well so do the people in SoCal, but guess what, they don't get that anymore like they did just 5-10 years ago, that is just one small example. But to your overall point, immigration has a history of taking place in waves in regards to the demographics of the immigrants. It is just the nature of the beast, especially with our country.

The big difference with today's immigration (especially illegal immigration) is that IT IS wave of people from a third world country, in which in many cases they are diseased and in most cases they are low skilled or unskilled. So, um, where is the benefit? You know why they are most often unskilled, b/c Mexico has a terrible education system, why should that be the fault of you or me? Why should you or I be responsible for making up for that short coming? No where else on the planet does a 1st world country border a 3rd world country like this. That is a big reason for all of this no doubt.

I've probably asked you this before, most likely with no response (b/c there is no response other than the obvious) would you let just anybody enter your home? Then why would you let just anybody enter your country.

Please point out to me the time in history where there has been a mass immigration from a country that consisted primarily of highly skilled workers.

jfiling wrote:Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country.

Not really. The population wasn't paying out the nose of immigrants back in the day, you see. There was no welfare, no free emergency-room visits, no free education, no free lunches, no safety net whatsoever. Made them a lot cheaper to take in. Entire states were not being bankrupted by a parasitical immigrant class, as California is right now.

You want to let every third-world peasant into this country who wants to? Dismantle the welfare structure that allows these people to treat the country like termites treat a wooden house and we'll talk.

Ziner wrote:Well shit, lets just let everyone in who wants to be. Let's take all the poor in the world, let them come here, add nothing to society except getting free health care and education and be ok with it.

Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country. It's also strange how each new immigration scare happens to target some particular ethnic group (not necessarily in order, but: Chinese, Italians, Irish, Japanese, Indians, and Middle Easterners) who are responsible for some new social ill (drugs, laziness, taking our jobs, opening up too many convenience stores). Mexicans are just the latest wop, mick, dothead, slant, and towelhead, and at some point this shit has to stop.

I believe Herm addressed this (I admittedly skimmed his post, no offense Herm) but again somebody is missing or ignoring the context of today's immigration. Completely different situations and circumstances in history.

Thing is jfiling this is not "a scare" this is real, maybe you are not as aware b/c you don't live in the midst of this. Do you like having access to working hospitals in your community, well so do the people in SoCal, but guess what, they don't get that anymore like they did just 5-10 years ago, that is just one small example. But to your overall point, immigration has a history of taking place in waves in regards to the demographics of the immigrants. It is just the nature of the beast, especially with our country.

The big difference with today's immigration (especially illegal immigration) is that IT IS wave of people from a third world country, in which in many cases they are diseased and in most cases they are low skilled or unskilled. So, um, where is the benefit? You know why they are most often unskilled, b/c Mexico has a terrible education system, why should that be the fault of you or me? Why should you or I be responsible for making up for that short coming? No where else on the planet does a 1st world country border a 3rd world country like this. That is a big reason for all of this no doubt.

I've probably asked you this before, most likely with no response (b/c there is no response other than the obvious) would you let just anybody enter your home? Then why would you let just anybody enter your country.

Please point out to me the time in history where there has been a mass immigration from a country that consisted primarily of highly skilled workers.

Um define high skilled in regards to the times of the previous waves of immigration j?

I mean seriously, comparing Europe where most of our founders came from to the current 3rd world status of Mexico today? But again it plays to the point I made above about we don't need the immigration we are getting today. Do we need some immigration, sure, some of the best and brightest to immigrate here, sure we do, what are those famous universities south of the border of us, I am drawing a blank.

Also note I added an edit to my previous post.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Um define high skilled in regards to the times of the previous waves of immigration j?

I mean seriously, comparing Europe where most of our founders came from to the current 3rd world status of Mexico today? But again it plays to the point I made above about we don't need the immigration we are getting today. Do we need some immigration, sure, some of the best and brightest to immigrate here, sure we do, what are those famous universities south of the border of us, I am drawing a blank.

Also note I added an edit to my previous post.

I know we agree on a lot of economical issues, which is why I'm happy this discussion is nice and civil. The thing is, though, you brought up the term "unskilled", so I'm not sure why I need to be on the defensive regarding the previous waves. The fact is regardless that it was the people who were shut out of prosperity, whether due to politics, or aristocracy, or whatever, that came here from Europe.

Another fact is the same problem exists in Mexico. That country is a hellhole, and people who want to work cannot find a job. So, they come here, to do jobs that "good Americans" aren't willing to do. Somebody needs to pick our crops, tar our roofs, and landscapes our yards, but nobody is going to pay the wages it would take for people who already live here and expect wages high enough to maintain a decent standard of living.

One last bit of evidence: the Mariel boatlift. Economists have studied this greatly, as it was an extremely large mass emigration to one spot in the United States, and thus easy to examine the impact on employment due to all the immigrants. The result? No net change in unemployment. Nor did wages fall due to the influx of cheap labor.

FUDU wrote:Um define high skilled in regards to the times of the previous waves of immigration j?

I mean seriously, comparing Europe where most of our founders came from to the current 3rd world status of Mexico today? But again it plays to the point I made above about we don't need the immigration we are getting today. Do we need some immigration, sure, some of the best and brightest to immigrate here, sure we do, what are those famous universities south of the border of us, I am drawing a blank.

Also note I added an edit to my previous post.

I'd bet being poor in 15th-18th century Europe wasn't much different than Mexico.

You imply that Mexico is a 3rd world country, which isn't totaly true, shit there are parts of the US that look just as bad as poorer parts of Mexico. Their colleges produce doctors, architects, engineers, philosophers, mathematicians, and scientists, just like ours.

And you're wrong, we do need poor people who will pick our fruit and vegetables. Americans will not pick lettuce for $3 an hour while working 10-12 hour days.

Well where we differ is in how this country approaches low skilled or unskilled workers. We don't need unskilled immigration right now, we need more of the best & brightest, regardless of where from.

I have some good research on such things as the impact of illegal aliens on the agg. industry and just how they impact the prices of say our precious fruits & veggies. Also some very good research on the net economic impact they are on the country as a whole, I'm talking scary numbers in terms of per capita use of social programs and monies. Hell some of this research shows how even legal immigrants struggle early on in their adjustment to this country, to the tune of some large costs. I'll dig up the links for you.

I have no problem with legal immigration, while I am more for controlled and limited immigration in general, if it is done through a legal system we have then fine.

I noticed you didn't answer the question, again?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Um define high skilled in regards to the times of the previous waves of immigration j?

I mean seriously, comparing Europe where most of our founders came from to the current 3rd world status of Mexico today? But again it plays to the point I made above about we don't need the immigration we are getting today. Do we need some immigration, sure, some of the best and brightest to immigrate here, sure we do, what are those famous universities south of the border of us, I am drawing a blank.

Also note I added an edit to my previous post.

I'd bet being poor in 15th-18th century Europe wasn't much different than Mexico.

You imply that Mexico is a 3rd world country, which isn't totaly true, shit there are parts of the US that look just as bad as poorer parts of Mexico. Their colleges produce doctors, architects, engineers, philosophers, mathematicians, and scientists, just like ours.

And you're wrong, we do need poor people who will pick our fruit and vegetables. Americans will not pick lettuce for $3 an hour while working 10-12 hour days.

But who here was exactly high skilled in 1860-1900? That is kind of what I am getting at. Unskilled is kind of relative, no?

Today, sorry but chemical engineers are not crossing the Rio Grande in the middle of the night.

To the point about our fruits & veggies, the myth/scare tactic over the past 5-8 years has been that a cucumber or tomato will cost $6 if illegals aliens were restricted from working here. Hogwash. I'll dig up a good link on it. Plus like I said, why do most of us care, we're fat fucks, we don't eat tomatoes unless they are on a Whopper.

Like JB often says intellectual dishonesty going on.

LeBron time, see you a couple of links north.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

jfiling wrote:Strange how that system worked for most of the history of this country.

Not really. The population wasn't paying out the nose of immigrants back in the day, you see. There was no welfare, no free emergency-room visits, no free education, no free lunches, no safety net whatsoever.

Not true.

You need to read up on Tammany Hall & other municipal governments (Irish) and the mafia (italian) .

America has always always always been xenophobic / racist as hell about the most recent wave of immigrants with the last wave often being the most racist, eg Irish -> Italians -> African-American northern migration ....

But the big dif is that back then it was legal to enter the US, now it isn't.

Peps act like there's some statute of limitations governing an illegal entry just casue they work illegaly and live here.

Bottom line: gotta go got go. Laws either is laws or they ain't.

The only twist is that much like "national security", it may be hard to tell the poisen from the cure.

Lastly - what we're talking mostly isn't just agriculture, for which we coiuld easily issue work permit visas. But a ton of construction jobs that had been taken from union living wages and housekeeping / child care jobs that lower SES class American women served in for years, and would if they were at a living wage.

My great grandparents (dad's side) left Germany in 1938 because some friends of my grandfather blew up a Nazi rail stop that killed 2 SS men and wounded several others. The Nazis caught his friends, hung them in a meat locker, then cut them with straight razors and rubbed salt into the wounds, that's when my grandfather decided it was probably best to leave.

My mom's side has been here since the late 1800's, they came here "illegaly" through Canada.

Lastly - what we're talking mostly isn't just agriculture, for which we coiuld easily issue work permit visas. But a ton of construction jobs that had been taken from union living wages and housekeeping / child care jobs that lower SES class American women served in for years, and would if they were at a living wage.

In a few weeks I'll be back in DC....protesting...and I'm planning on another trip the Bethesda Naval Hospital to visit wounded Vets. I'm quite sure I'll see the same group of Mexicans on the multi humongous construction job going on there as I did last year when we drove bikes around the grounds....Mexicans...building Armed Service's hospitals

Two years ago, while watching the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown, total silence was suddenly interrupted by a Mexican with a leaf blower 50 yards away

It took all we had to keep from beating the shit out of him and shoving it up his greasy no English speaking ass...

I was losing work to illegals and wading thru their litter out west 19 years ago

I've had it with these filthy smelly scumbags leeching our system without reprisal and if there was a politician in front of me right now I'd punch him or her right in the fucking mouth not only for allowing it to get to this point but also just for the hell of it

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

FUDU wrote:Well where we differ is in how this country approaches low skilled or unskilled workers. We don't need unskilled immigration right now, we need more of the best & brightest, regardless of where from.

Not true, we do need migrant workers and they need us. What they make here is way more than what they would make in Mexico. The one thing we could try to regulate would be putting a limit on remittances.