According to Jon Heyman of Today’s Knuckleball and FanRag Sports, the Los Angeles Dodgers are not interested in trading their top prospects in recent trade talks.

“It’s no surprise that some suggest the Dodgers are being “stingy” with their top prospects in talks for veteran players, as LA values their top minor leaguers high,” said Heyman.

The clubs that may have some dislike to the Dodgers’ ways could possibly be their NL rivals San Francisco Giants and St. Louis Cardinals. Both teams have also been interested in Dozier this past month.

The Dodgers do know when they have potential All-Star players and NL Rookie of the Year candidates in their farm systems. But will the Dodgers make the same decision with De Leon, Bellinger, Alvarez, and Buehler?

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Stingy or smart?! Just because we have prospects doesn’t mean it’s a smart deal to trade them. A couple? Yes of course, but even minor leaguers have a value assigned to them. The trades need to be equal in some way, not spend like a drunken sailor just because we have the goods.
Wait until we have these players on the major league swuad, low payroll and STILL winning the division. Any team could do it but it takes patience and determination, something most people don’t have.
I applaud our managent team for taking the long, winning road!

Why would the Giants have dislike. If the Dodgers are overvaluing their prospects the the Giants should be able to easily move in. Actually it seems to me that the Dodgers drew the line at DeLeon plus a couple of much lesser prospects and the Twins are scrounging around for a better deal. If the twins had found a better deal they would probably would have it done by now.

The FO is staying with their commitment to create a self sustaining farm to stay competitive and be a contender for the long term. Buehler and Alveraz have the potential to be top of the rotation pitchers. if the FO can extend Kershaw, that could be a great rotation of Kersh, Urias, Buehler, Maeda & Hill, with Alveraz ready to replace one in 2019. JDL could be top of the rotation, but IMO the FO believes that Buehler and Alveraz will be better, making JDL available. There is also Stewart, De Jong, and Oaks as potential back of the rotation SP.

i don’t know if Bellinger is the next Anthony Rizzo or Paul Goldscmidt, but what if he is? I believe most Dodger fans remember what happened with Paul Konerko.

Bellinger, Alveraz, and Buehler have value, and should be held onto unless Friedman gets overwhelmed with a top MLB p!ayer with many years of team and cost control. Brian Dozier is a good player who can help in 2017 & 2018, but not at the expense of more top level prospects other than JDL. The same with Kinsler. The FO is smart to keep looking at Forsythe, Solarte, or Phillips (for one year) to give Calhoun one more year to prove he can be a ML 2B. I also do not blame the Twins for holding out. Dozier is their one marketable player to help build them up. They can wait until July and have some team over pay.

I still hold out holpe for the Wow factor trade for Braun AND Jonathan Villar. I know it’s a pipe dream.

The win now approach does not work! Teams that try to go all in; push in all their chips for a chance to win the season, most of the times, are disappointed because play-offs are unpredictable. I applaud the front office for not going all in on any given year but instead building a dynasty!

JCDodgersFan The win now plan worked for the Cubs last year and for the Royals the year before. Both traded top prospects for needed veterans. The Cubs went out and signed high-priced free agents as well in Lester, Zobrist, Lackey and Heyward. That all put them over the top.

Sometimes “win now” works, sometimes “patience” works. There are NO guarantees either way The Astros, Twins, A’s, Rays and Brewers all have followed the “patience” route in recent years and have zero championships among them. The Cubs followed the patience route until they switched last winter to win now.

I’m not advocating the Dodgers trade off all their prospects for veterans, just that sometimes you need to sacrifice a good prospect to find the missing piece. There are no guarantees that top minor league prospects become major league stars. In fact, most don’t. In my view, the Dodgers should follow a middle ground, which they can do because they are among the richest teams in baseball. Keep the minor league teams producing, but do more to deliver a World Series to their loyal fans, who after all, pay the bills.

I personally would like to hang on to Bellinger, Alvarez and Buehler. But I don’t presume to know which of their other prospects have the best chances of breaking through to the big leagues. I do believe this: if, like last year, the Dodgers rank near the bottom in hitting left handed pitching, they almost surely will finish out of the World Series yet again.

I also know that after the 2018 season, Kershaw has an opt out clause in his contract. Barring injury, he will certainly take it. If Kershaw finishes his career with another team, the current era will be seen as a time when Dodger management wasted the prime years of one of the best pitchers in history. That is something the FO should consider in deciding how far to go in trying to win now, as opposed to some time in the 2020s. It probably also matters to Kershaw whether he believes this FO is doing everything it can to elevate the team to a World Series.

AlwaysCompete I agree with most of what you say and hope they can hang on to Bellinger, Alvarez and Buehler.

But for me the key phrase in your post is: “If the FO can extend Kershaw.” If not, they will have lost the services of the best pitcher of his generation without having made it to the World Series. That could be the defining legacy of Friedman. I fear Friedman may be overlooking how remarkable Kershaw is and how important it is to take advantage of that excellence while he can.

Yes, I suspect many Dodger fans remember Paul Konerko, as well as Pedro Martinez, Mike Piazza and Adrian Beltre. The Doddgers have let a lot of good players get away since they last made the World Series. But do you also remember Greg Brock, Billy Ashley, Bob Miller, Andy LaRoche, Hee-siop Choi and Joel Guzman? They will all “can’t miss” prospects who missed. Knowing which minor leaguers are going to make it in the big leagues seems a real guessing game.

Would love to get Villar for Dodger second base, but I worry about a relapse with Braun. Which prospects would you sacrifice to get Villar?

Blue58 AlwaysCompete I do not know if Bellinger is the next Rizzo or Greg Brock,
or if Alveraz or Buehler will be the next Hershiser or Joel Guzman. I am not that smart or I would be in some
FO. But Bellinger, Buehler, and Alveraz
are all top quality prospects (as is JDL).
Kinsler does not waive his no trade without significant cost. In
addition to exercising his option, he will require at least 2 more years and
more than the $10M some have projected. He
doesn’t want to leave Detroit, so it is going to cost to get him to accept.

Dozier is good but not worth any top prospects other than
JDL. The Twins should hold on to Dozier
until July and then get an overpay, but it should not come from LAD now. Forsythe, Solarte, and Phillips should be thoroughly
explored, and still be prepared not to overpay for Dozier or Kinsler. What about a package to the Orioles for Brach
(two years control) and Jonathan Schoop (three years control). The O’s
need a RF and the Dodgers have Puig available. Maybe it is time to see if Trayce Thompson can be a big RH bat. The O’s need to win now because their farm is disastrous. Include Kazmir and/or McCarthy. Outside of Gausman, Tillman, and maybe Bundy,
who are the O’s going to turn to…Gallardo and Jimenez? The Dodgers can include Baez to replace Brach,
and Kike’/Turner to replace Schoop. Yes
they will have to include prospects…JDL/Calhoun, and/or maybe some lower level
prospects. LAD gets a solid 2B and tremendous setup reliever. I have not heard of any
possibility, but my guess is that it has been explored.

My point is I have no idea how any FO values prospects compared
to ML players, but Friedman is creative, and IMO he can improve the Dodgers
chances in 2017 without giving up Bellinger, Alveraz, or Buehler, unless a game
changer is involved. IMO, if Hamels, Price, or Cueto are not considered game changers, neither are Kinsler or Dozier.

Couldn’t agree with you more Blue58. Dodgers have two years to win a WS with Kershaw. They did waste opportunities when they had Kershaw and Grienke as their 1,2 punch and could build around them. Dodgers also need to prepare financially for 2018 if they want to resign Kershaw and you can be sure it will be one of the most lucrative contracts in MLB history.

JustinKlein Danielsocal We all want to win now, that’s not the point. The point is not to make an unbalanced trade because the other team thinks they have us over a barrel or because WE think we absolutelh have to make the trade or we suck. Weare a very good team right now. We don’t need Dozier to make the playoffs and we can make a trade any time up to July 31.

Patience is golden. Imagine what would happen if some team lost a starter in spring training and needed kazmir or mc carthy all of a sudden. All kinds of scenarios could play out here, especially some other deal we all know nothing about.

Blue58 JCDodgersFan I doubt he believes the G.M. is doing everything he can to elevate the team. Scott Kazmir, Brett Anderson, Brandon McCarthy. Three .500 at best pitchers he got cheap. Friedman has access to the second most successful franchise ever and he acts like it’s his own personal money he’s spending on players. Going on 30 years since a championship and to Dodger fans that’s unacceptable. Ned Colletti had an excuse, this guy doesn’t. Kershaw may leave just because he wants to win. It’s up to skinflint to put the pieces in place.

Danielsocal JustinKlein But, a much better chance of getting to The World series with a 2B upgrade like Dozier. A righthanded power bat that would likely hit in the area of 35 doubles and 25 homers, as well as play decent defense and steal a base now and then. The Dodgers are so loaded with pitchers standing in the way of the plethora of projects, why not turn a couple of them over for an allstar level 2B and try to win now.

GaryPeck1 Danielsocal JustinKlein And in the last almost 30 years despite the Dodgers consistently making more money than all the other teams, they have exactly the same amount of championships as the Astros, Twins, Rays and Brewers. Can’t include the A’s because they won in ’99.

Bleed Blue Forever The “stingy” comments are coming from teams the Dodgers are attempting to make trades with, not the Giants and Cards. Latest report, for example, is the Dodgers are insisting on one for one trade of Dozier for DeLeon, which is unrealistic.

There’s been consistent complaints that the Dodgers overvalue their prospects. We haven’t seen enough of those prospects to know if that’s true. Certainly Seager and Urias look like the real deals and aren’t we glad they weren’t traded? But they held on to Zach Lee and Puig for so long their lost most of their trade value. The same thing may be happening with Joc Pederson. If Pederson can’t learn to hit left handers, he’s a platoon player going forward.

Blue58 Bleed Blue Forever They wouldn’t have traded Seager earlier unless it landed them Sale or a pitcher of that quality. I read somewhere the other day they were inquiring about Sonny Gray. He pitched as bad as Chris Archer did last year. The Dodgers would need to rid themselves of some junk to consider either of them.

If the Dodgers overvalued their prospects, then why are teams so eager to acquire theM and then complain that they cannot get them? I am not criticizing your comments; I realize where the complaints are coming from!

I sure am glad that AF and FZ are calling the shots and not some of you. They got hired because they said they would put a long lasting ‘chance to win it every year’ model in place. What have we seen? We’re right there in the unpredictable playoffs as division winners every year with a shot as good as anyone to win a WS. Does anyone doubt that the Dodgers are a better team roster wise top to bottom than the club in 88? Of course they are. That team won the whole thing because if you get in there and get a couple great starting pitching performances and a key hit here and there you can win.
Add that now to the sustainability factor I mentioned earlier. Many would argue the top farm system in baseball and that’s even with the graduation of potential superstars like Seager, Urias, Pederson and they just keep coming.
Bottom line: Do what you said you were going to do. Don’t sacrifice the future for a couple years of some vet. Everyone remember Pedro Martinez? Delino Deshields? How about Konerko or Beltre? Jeff Shaw anyone??? LOL. Some guy named Blue27 was screaming to make one of those deals. Trust the geniuses to keep us with a fighting chance to win it every season. Not the guy that because he has season tickets thinks we should throw away a potential superstar for two years of Jeff Shaw or Delino Deshields.

And there’s the underlining problem with most Dodger fans when it comes to trading prospects, the trauma of the Pedro Martinez and Delino Desheilds trade. It’s time to get over this fear. The Dodgers are closure to a WS run more then any year since 88, and we are afraid of making trades because of the future which we all know are no guarantees. No guarantees that a trade will produce a championship but I’d rather roll the dice being this close then continuing to wait. The Cubs traded 4 players in all for a rental in Chapman that produced a championship. For others like the Indians in trading for Miller it didn’t work out but they were so close to winning it. It’s time the Dodgers give themselves and there fans that same opportunity.

ChrisTerrell So you think this roster is better than the 88 team? And no way can you compare Pedro Marinez to Beltre. Martinez was traded, Beltre left for more money. You are quite the smug know-it-all. These two “geniuses” won nothing in Tampa Bay OR Oakland. So don’t be so quick to anoint them.

Blue58 Bleed Blue Forever To the contrary. Read the article carefully. It makes no mention of any other teams than the Cards and Giants with respect to both teams having some “dislike to the Dodgers ways” (referring to their stinginess to trade away some of their talent.) There may in fact be some “stingy” comments coming from the Twins but the Cards and Giants is referenced in the article as well.

Reading the comments posted below, it’s great to see almost 100% unity of Dodgers’ fans regarding the need to hold onto top prospects. There are likely to be some busts from the field of Dodgers’ prospects, but overall the future is very bright. I remember long years past, when the Dodgers won championships with mostly players brought up through their own farm system. Then I remember the more recent past when the Dodgers traded away prospects and won nothing. We appear to be in a new era of Dodger baseball, we don’t need to trade it away for Dozier.

Arodc03 We are on the brink of seeing prospects propel the Dodgers to the World Series. We just need to show a little patience here. I expect to see an even better Dodgers’ team in 2017, as Urias begins to fulfill expectations and maybe even De Leon makes the starting staff. It won’t be long after that when we see the likes of Bellinger, Calhoun, Verdugo, Alvarez, Buehler, etc, break onto the scene.

@GeorgeInnes I’m not saying to trade off all your prospects. I’m saying that sometimes teams need to make key acquisitions to get them closer to a championship and sometimes that means trading prospects. But Dodger fans have been so relucted because of the Martinez/Deshields trade. Even in 1988 the Dodger make key acquisitions to that lead to WS championship, signing Kirk Gibson and trading for Alfredo Griffin and Mike Davis. There’s a balance between developing players, signing free agents and trading for players.

@Arodc03
The problem is teams have a higher price tag on their players when the Dodgers come asking. They would have to part with too many of our prospects just to get one guy. They don’t get to do a balance

@MagicsJohnson – Of course they have a high price tags when asking about a top player. Dodgers would do the same if teams came asking about Seager or Kershaw for example. But everyone wants a bargain which is unrealistic especially when the Dodgers are stacked with talent in prospects.
Now I don’t know that Dozier is the guy that the Dodgers need to unload top talent for. Just saying Dodger fans need to get over the scare of trading some of their talent because trading for players is very much part of finding the right players to win a championship.

I don’t have an issue with trading someone who is potentially blocked by more qualified players and dealing from a surplus for a key need. Throw in some this and that and you might have something that would net a Dozier or Kinsler:
DeLeon, Nuno, Calhoun
Or
Stewart, Liberatore, Hansen
I think we have a SP prospect extra to deal from of our 11 and an extra lefty out of the pen that the twins or tigers could use. Throw in a “C” level prospect. Calhoun can hit but where does he play the field? He could fit in the AL right away. We have a lot of left handed hitting. Of all the players mentioned, the only guy I could see turning into a many time all-star is DeLeon and even with his I think it’s more likely he’s the level of a Chad Billingsley. Solid 2/3 SP maybe 3 and a half ERA but I don’t see him turning into a Max Scherzer. Stewart is likeable but I project him as back end of the rotation guy that could be .500 on a good team and an ERA around 4 and a whip of 1.30.

Brad Machado Blue58 JCDodgersFan I think the front office was looking at the potential talent in the free agent market for the last couple years and just weren’t going to spend ludicrous amounts of cash to land players. In terms of pitchers they actually went after, according to reports, pretty heavily after guys like Cueto, Greinke, Lester, and Tanaka, but were outbid. Sure someone like Lester or Tanaka could have been had for a tad bit more, but we honestly do not know the back room discussions that were going on. For the prices, and lengths, of the contracts those guys got, we got what was next best. Our starting rotation has actually performed rather well in the last two-three years, and is now going to get even better. Price and Hamels? Guess who was being floated as the SP prospect that would go back in those trades? Julio Urias! Guess what? Seager was being discussed as well as an additional piece, or the headliner instead of Urias. I’ll bet you are glad we didn’t land either Hamels or Price now huh? Look we get that the front office can seem to be frustrating because they give the impression of overvaluing prospects, but there is a method to the madness. The Rays and A’s had sustained success during the tenures of the two guys heading up our office. And they had success without big money to allow them to land major names in trades or free agent signings. Also, I’d rather penny-pinch in these couple years leading up to that epic 2018 free agent class so we can extend Kershaw, sign a major free agent (a la Machado please), and sign some of our young guys like Seager or Pederson to long-term extensions.

GaryPeck1 Danielsocal JustinKlein Wanna hear something fascinating guys? Brian Dozier, for all his value and worth has a fairly similar line to another 2B that was hot stuff about 5-6 years ago. Here are the first five year lines for those two players.
Player A – 3065 PA’s, .246.320.442, .330 wOBA, 107 wRC+, 9.1 K%, 19.3 BB%, .196 ISO, 117 HR, 75 SB, 15.6 WAR
Player B – 3372 PA’s, .263.349.488, .361 wOBA, 118 wRC+, 10.8 K%, 22.5 BB% .224 ISO, 154 HR, 19 SB, 18.0 WAR
Guess who is who. Player A is Dozier, Player B is Dan Uggla. Just saying guys. Dozier is not the 42 home run guy he was last year. He was mostly helped by a second half where he hit 28 home runs, while seeing his HR/FB rate spike by 5%, his Z-Swing rate decline, O-Swing rate increase, and overall contact rate go down. He still pulls nearly 60% of the balls he puts in play. That kind of batted ball profiles much lower than what he put up last year. I just don’t think he is worth the price the Twins are asking.

Arodc03 We don’t know what the asking price is. All we know is they apparently want more than just DeLeon. Trading one minor league prospect who is not even in the top 10 nationally for an established major leaguer seems unrealistic in the current market.

yarritsblake Agree that it was wise to hang on to Urias and Seager. I would put Bellinger, Alvarez and maybe Buehler in the same category, but not sure about making anyone else “untouchable.” Depends on who you get in return.
The reports I read suggested that Dodgers did not go hard after either Tanaka or Cueto. Cueto said the Dodgers never made him an offer but asked him to wait before signing. Lester made it clear he did not want to pitch on the West Coast.
The guys they should have signed were Scherzer and Andrew Miller during Friedman’s first winter as president. Scherzer’s contract was large, but with the way salaries are rising, it will look like a bargain by the time it ends. Miller, of course, would have been the solution to all the bullpen issues of the last couple years.
But that is 20/20 hindsight. The Dodger rotation today
is ok, but requires a deep and talented bullpen behind it.
As for 2018, my bet is they do not resign Kershaw. He will be 30 and looking for seven years at $45 million per. Friedman and friends have no sentiment in them and I predict they will let him walk because they will regard that as too much risk and too much money and will see Urias as their new number one pitcher. It will be interesting to see how fans react.

MagicsJohnson Exactly right. Teams look at the Dodgers’ farm system like a candy store. Their logic seems to be: “Because the Dodgers have a lot of very good prospects, they should be willing to be more generous than some other team in their offer.” Sorry, but the Dodgers front office doesn’t see it that way (and thankfully so).

ChrisTerrell Sorry Chris but that’s a big insult. I promise you I’ve been a Dodger fan longer than you’ve been on this earth. I’m not a Dodger fan because I live in Southern California and that’s who most root for. I happen to live in Northern California and was a Brooklyn Dodger fan before they won their first championship in ’55.

Sorry Brad, I’m not trying to offend you personally. You have a right to your opinion, even if it is negative about OUR team. But I have a right to my opinion too and you make many of the same points that Giants fans make when arguing their team or organization is better than OURS. Maybe it’s because you live there, I don’t know it’s creeping into your subconscious. That negativity, I don’t believe, should be due to where you live or your age. If anything age should remind you that when the Dodgers were about developing their own guys like the 50s, 60s, and 70s they were perennially the best team in the Nationsl League.
I happen to believe we have the best organization in baseball. Top to bottom but starting from the top I think they’re the absolute best baseball minds in the game. They have a proven track record of putting excellent clubs on the field year after year in bad markets with very little resources. To be one of the best, and having less to work with than most everyone else, and to do it year after year like they were able to is incredible. It’s hard managing or coaching the team with less money to spend. To consistently win in that circumstance is near impossible but somehow the Rays were every bit as good as the Yankees and the Red Sox over a prolonged period. Same can be said about the miracles of moneyball in Oakland. Now you take that ability to get the most out of the least and you couple it with an organization that can spend money on a key player or ten and you’re able to be smart and have more resources and you have a club that could have a chance to win many many pennants and be someone that I and my children can be proud of year after year for a decade or more and that is truly special. The fact that you don’t share the same optimism about OUR team isn’t my problem. You are wrong, as are the Giants fans about our organization and their leadership and I hope we prove it to you this season.

ChrisTerrell Chris, you’ve got a great attitude. But I temper my optimism about the Dodgers with a certain degree of skepticism.

I don’t think, for example, that we can discount the pressure on Friedman to steadily cut payroll over the next five years and beyond, and indeed, the probability that Friedman sold himself to Dodger ownership on the basis that he could do more while spending less money. How those continued cuts, and where they end, will certainly affect the team’s future.

Second, I think you oversell the past success of Friedman and Zaidi when you say Tampa and Oakland were “every bit as good as the Yankees and Red Sox.” The Yankees and Red Sox won World Series. Friedman and Zaihi never have been associated with a World Series winner. Oakland never has come close to getting into the World Series in the Beane era.

Also, it’s dangerous to put down the Giants organization. I am a lifelong Dodger fan, going back to 1958, but I respect the Giants and what they have done in this decade: three World Series championships. No one would look at the two teams in the 21st Century and say the Dodgers are more successful than the Giants.

But so I do not come off as entirely negative, I agree these guys seem smart, innovative and resourceful and have done an excellent job with the minor league operation. They made a good selection of Dave Roberts as manager, have so far hung on to their best prospects and kept the Dodgers a team to be reckoned with. They have a cogent, viable, achievable plan and they are holding to it.

I also agree that the key to building a sustained winner is maintaining a solid farm system and the Dodgers seem to be doing that (though you never know which prospects will actually work out). Still, some of us would like to see the team win a World Series some time before 2022, when the farm system hopefully will be churning out ROY candidates annually. Every season the Dodgers seem to have just enough flaws to keep them out of the World Series.

But my biggest complaint about Friedman is his lack of passion for winning. He’s on the record as saying that winning the division constitutes a successful season. I understand the concept that if you make the playoffs every year, at some point the odds are you will win it all. But aiming to just be among the top ten teams in the game and then hoping for the best is not something I’m prepared to endorse.

Jerry Buss was the most successful local sports owner of the last generation for a reason. He never wanted to settle for anything other than a championship. Getting to the NBA finals and losing was regarded as a failed season. That passion to win was communicated to his players and it got results.

Walter and Peter O’Malley shared that same goal–World Series or bust. That’s why, unlike many teams, the Dodgers do not display in the stadium banners for division or league titles.

I don’t believe Friedman, the cool, calculating, dispassionate numbers cruncher, burns with the desire, the need, to win a World Series. That passion burned in Koufax, Drysdale, Wills, Lasorda, Gibson and Hershiser. It burns today in Clayton Kershaw, who declares to anyone who will listen that the only title that mattes is World Series winner, not division winner.

Time will tell whether Friedman can actually deliver a championship to the Dodgers’ loyal and long-suffering fans. Like you I hope for the best and will lavish Friedman with praise if he can pull it off. The thing is, if he can’t, I don’t think it will bother him that much.

Brad Machado ChrisTerrell Point 1: The 2017 roster is better than the 1988 roster, and yes, there is a degree unpredictability and good versus bad fortune once a team gets in the playoffs. Point 2: The front office has implemented a plan focused on sustainability versus a “one shot” approach. I’m not always positive about the current front office, but they have done an excellent job in rebuilding the farm system and holding onto talent. I suspect that Stan Kasten is behind that. Point 3: References to Martinez, Konerko, and Beltre are correct to the extent that the Dodgers did not retain young talent, either by trade or failure to re-sign. Point 4: Friedman and Zaidi have made numerous poor acquisitions and many of these players are no longer with the team. Kazmir, McCarthy, and Anderson were terrible signings. However, the front office has retained minor league talent which almost assures the team of a bright future.

Articulated nicely. I agree with many of your points – especially where you agree with mine 🙂 I guess the thing for me is I think baseball is so much different than any other sport. In basketball over 4 twelve minute quarters and over a prolonged series that the better teams wins most of the time. If one teams weakness is the other’s strength, it’s possible a team almost as good can win it all whereas in baseball I think out of the ten teams that one has 12% chance of winning it all and another has an 8%. Seeing eye singles and bloop hits and the 500 foot blast that hooks foul and the bad hop and so many things that make baseball fun because anyone can really win once they get in.

GeorgeInnes Brad Machado ChrisTerrell I remember that not so many years ago Zach Lee was talked about in the same terms that Urias is now. Just think if they had traded that dud for a front-line player. The thing about Dozier is because he’s under 30 and has big time pop in his bat, whoever trades for him will overpay. The 88 roster had three key components. Tommy Lasorda, Kirk Gibson and Orel Hirsheiser.