Not at all sarcasm. I'm just saying that wearing leather shoes, for whatever reason, is just as much not vegan as eating honey. Yet, it can be justified. In my opinion justly. But, it's still not vegan. And it doesn't make me angry if someone still calls themselves vegan with a few bent rules. Whatever. We all know what we are. I don't do this to identify with people or to be the outstanding "vegan". I do what I think is right. If people are happing eating honey, and calling themselves vegan, let 'em be.

Do you wear any leather or wool, ever eat anything that you are not 100% sure animals were not harmed, don't use medicine, etc? (Rhetorical) Wouldn't you be offended if someone said "Oh, well you're not vegan then."? It becomes such a large part of people's identity that sacrificing the term, for honey, is a large reason it is often included when people call themselves vegan. I think wearing things out is more important than not wearing animal products and that makes me not vegan. I'm good with that.

Do you wear any leather or wool, ever eat anything that you are not 100% sure animals were not harmed, don't use medicine, etc? (Rhetorical) Wouldn't you be offended if someone said "Oh, well you're not vegan then."? It becomes such a large part of people's identity that sacrificing the term, for honey, is a large reason it is often included when people call themselves vegan. I think wearing things out is more important than not wearing animal products and that makes me not vegan. I'm good with that.

That's not really what the topic of the debate here is. It's not about "people who eat honey shouldn't call themselves vegan." It's about "eating honey is not vegan"--the action.

What? As I already said..wearing something out..and continuing to eat honey are DIFFERENT. Very different. Honey becomes such a large part of someone's identity, or what does? Just stop eating honey if you want to call yourself "vegan." Period.

Also, chimps and bears don't have the capacity to make moral judgments. A bear's decision to eat honey is not an ethical one.

If we are debating intelligence, we can certainly debate this. Especially chimps not having the capacity to make moral judgments. I would really argue with that.

I don't know much about chimp intelligence, honestly. Again, I don't think intelligence is relevant here, either. But there is a world of difference between a bear eating honey and a human eating honey. You must concede that.

What? As I already said..wearing something out..and continuing to eat honey are DIFFERENT. Very different. Honey becomes such a large part of someone's identity, or what does? Just stop eating honey if you want to call yourself "vegan." Period.

In your opinion they are different, but it's still not vegan. It's justification. It's the same as saying the honey has already been taken from the bees, I might as well use it.

Ranu, are you arguing that eating honey is vegan? Or, are you just arguing that whomever may call him/herself whatever he/she pleases...and everyone do what they want?

My main points/questions: 1. eating honey is not vegan 2. why do some people who want to call themselves vegan..find it so difficult to abstain from honey products? 3. why is it even a question if consuming honey is vegan?

What? As I already said..wearing something out..and continuing to eat honey are DIFFERENT. Very different. Honey becomes such a large part of someone's identity, or what does? Just stop eating honey if you want to call yourself "vegan." Period.

In your opinion they are different, but it's still not vegan. It's justification. It's the same as saying the honey has already been taken from the bees, I might as well use it.

Noooonononono. If I already bought a leather jacket, there is nothing I can do to undo the harm I've done. The best I can do is not buy leather again and find a replacement for my jacket as I see fit. BUYING a jar of honey ADDS to the harm. It creates demand for honey. Which entails more harvesting of honey.

Ranu, are you arguing that eating honey is vegan? Or, are you just arguing that whomever may call him/herself whatever he/she pleases...and everyone do what they want?

I'm pretty sure Ranu is just saying that although one may or may not fit the denotative meaning of vegan, it's the over-all picture / result that should be looked at. Al Gore comes to mind.. how he advocates this and that yet is a cattle rancher or what not. I don't know, I could be wrong, that's the slant I got.

Ranu, are you arguing that eating honey is vegan? Or, are you just arguing that whomever may call him/herself whatever he/she pleases...and everyone do what they want?

My main points/questions: 1. eating honey is not vegan 2. why do some people who want to call themselves vegan..find it so difficult to abstain from honey products? 3. why is it even a question if consuming honey is vegan?

It's not a vegan action, no (using up animal products), and no, we are not in a perfect vegan world. We all know this........but it is not solely a justification...yes, I made a poor choice in the past and purchased _______ animal product, but I refuse to continue to partake in the exploitation of animals, so I will no longer purchase/consume animal products. Buying animal products in the past-bad choice, but it happened. Continuing to buy/partake in animal products...I'm now vegan..I no longer choose to do so.

Perhaps this entire discussion is totally pointless, as everyone agrees that eating honey is not vegan. I think it's fine to eat honey and still call yourself vegan. And no, everyone should not do what they want, but what they think is right. As I said before, it's not about the difficulty of abstaining from honey, but the importance to someone. That's where the rest of the discussion surfaces. If it's not important to you to not eat honey because of whatever reason (you don't think it's bad for the bees/world, the bees aren't aware of the use, the bees don't feel pain) one wouldn't try very hard to do so. This is where likening it to the use of shoes that one already owns comes in. If it's important to call yourself vegan, you shouldn't wear leather. Regardless of the reason. It's not that difficult to do, why do people that call themselves vegan find it difficult to do so? The same argument can be made.

It's not a vegan action, no (using up animal products), and no, we are not in a perfect vegan world. We all know this........but it is not solely a justification...yes, I made a poor choice in the past and purchased _______ animal product, but I refuse to continue to partake in the exploitation of animals, so I will no longer purchase/consume animal products. Buying animal products in the past-bad choice, but it happened. Continuing to buy/partake in animal products...I'm now vegan..I no longer choose to do so.

Just to be clear, I think that this is fine, I'm not trying to get you down. It's just that if we're going to judge the honey-eaters (and others) for calling themselves vegan, we'd better be pretty damn perfect ourselves.

This is what it boils down to for me...the central question of my identity as a vegan: am I doing the very best I can to avoid suffering and exploitation of other species? Personally, I couldn't look at myself as a honey-eater and honestly answer that question with a yes. Maybe some people can. I don't know.