Some Observations of "Classical" vs. "Modern" Martial Arts

Originally posted by Roundeyesamurai
Might I inquire, which koryu budo you studied, and where?

Sure, it was the school in Cerro de Pasco, Peru, it says "KARATE" above the door, I am sure you know it. By the way, I have no idea what koryu budo it was, since the teacher could not speak Spanish or english and the entire class was conducted in Japanise or Chinese, which I do not speak.

On a side note, Cerro de Pasco, at 14,000+ feet in the Andies is the highest city in the world, you have to travel on the highest highway in the world, over 15,000 ft, to get to it. Talk about high altitude training!

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I don't agree with this for a second- the determining factor is the individual, not the method. This is as true now as it has been for thousands of years.

And I don't buy that for one second either. And if that is true, it totally contradicts training in any form, because the victor is dictated by your false dicotomy of the individual over the training.

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No, it really doesn't. One wonders, then, what convinces an even smaller fraction of that small fraction of the population, to get on the internet and proclaim that "their (insert method) is the best".

I agree, but the facts are the facts, every traditional MA I have ever seen uses the same tired "No true Scottsman" fallicy. They go on and on about how the true karate/kung fu/TKD/gung fu masters choose not to show themselves in the real world of MMA, boxing, kickboxing, or even a challenge fight. They are just too good to mess with the lower forms of MA. Or they are too dangerous and would kill someone with the chi/ki/monkey/tiger/crane/dragon power they have developed over the past 80 years of daily meditation, horse stance traning, candle gazing and brick breaking.

And, for the record, I have never said my art or any art is the best, every single one I have been exposed too has something to offer, even if it is just wild tales of fire balls from the finger tips, they are at least good for a laugh.

Heck, Roundeye, I even like the systema I have seen, what does that tell you about me?

Originally posted by MARTIN FISHER Sure, it was the school in Cerro de Pasco, Peru, it says "KARATE" above the door, I am sure you know it. By the way, I have no idea what koryu budo it was, since the teacher could not speak Spanish or english and the entire class was conducted in Japanise or Chinese, which I do not speak.

Cool, TYVM.

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Originally posted by MARTIN FISHER And I don't buy that for one second either. And if that is true, it totally contradicts training in any form, because the victor is dictated by your false dicotomy of the individual over the training.

Why would it contradict training? The purpose of training is the improvement of the individual. If the purpose of training were solely the regimentation of the individual into a set way of doing things (the theoretical "best way of doing things"), then military training would be the epitome of hand-to-hand combat skills, which it most certainly isn't.

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Originally posted by MARTIN FISHER I agree, but the facts are the facts, every traditional MA I have ever seen uses the same tired "No true Scottsman" fallicy. They go on and on about how the true karate/kung fu/TKD/gung fu masters choose not to show themselves in the real world of MMA, boxing, kickboxing, or even a challenge fight. They are just too good to mess with the lower forms of MA. Or they are too dangerous and would kill someone with the chi/ki/monkey/tiger/crane/dragon power they have developed over the past 80 years of daily meditation, horse stance traning, candle gazing and brick breaking.

There again is a significant problem- the McDojoistas use that as a cover for their own ineptitude, and again, they are about as "traditional" as McDonald's is "fine cuisine".

Virtually all of the koryu masters I have known, are all too happy to demonstrate what they know, IF they are approached in the correct fashion. Approach them with a desire to learn, and they're happy to accomodate. Approach them like you want a 'UFC' match, and you'll get nothing.

Originally posted by Vanguard.45
1. Lots of ritual (bowing, shoes off while training, wearing pajamas while training, etc.)

How does this inhibit one's training? Also, a decent gi is going to be more durable than average clothes, and will wick away perspiration better as well. Furthermore, by everyone being in uniform, you don't have differences that may cause a distraction in the training.

The "rules" are in place because you aren't out to injure your partner. While anyone can complain "traditional controlled sparring is stupid because you can't kick someone in the scrotum," how is that going to really help someone learn?

You also seem to not realize, that many traditional schools DO allow some grappling and throwing in their kumite sessions. Again, controlled, since you don't want someone to compress their necks, etc.

The way I see it, if someone has good control, and can hit someone on a non-vital area during a friendly sparring match, then he can certainly land that same attack in a more vital area, should the need arise. If someone can pull a full force punch, so that it lands with minimal impact, then I would certainly have faith in his ability to land that same punch, 7-8 inches deeper. Same mechanics, same movements. If you want to throw someone so that they land in a more awkward position, then it's easy to adjust.

I would be most interested to see what decent traditional schools use such things, such as your above mentioned "camouflage belt, zebra belt, 10th degree ninja" terms. No self-respecting traditional martial arts school would generally allow to call themselves ninjas, much less 10th degree ones.

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4. Study of "traditional weapons" that have very little application in the real world (i.e. nunchaku, kama, tonfa, 9-section whip, kusari-gama, etc.). When will you ever have any of these with you?

You seemed to have conveniently forgotten other weapons such as the bo, jo, and tanbo / hanbo, any of which are certainly available at times.

Also, in your example of the kau sin ke (sp?) / 9 section whip, it's VERY similar in terms of its action, to using a chain.

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from straight lines to circles in nanoseconds while traditional martial artists are trying to complete their "X-Blocks" or other outmoded defense techniques.

And which style teaches juju-uke to be applied in that manner? I would be most interested to hear from where you got this idea.

"Sticks" are taught in most traditional martial arts systems that teach weapons use. Almost everyone is taught the use of the bo, and those who want to learn, can certainly also learn the jo and tanbo / hanbo.

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2. Sparring at all ranges is emphasized and the realistic transition between each is allowed to occur and develop

You still need some control, otherwise you're going to lose your students to sheer injury, due to the lack of discipline and control. Thus, you still have to have rules so that your students can live to train another day.

Now, just so that I don't entirely disagree with you, Vanguard, your points of being familiar with today's surroundings do have some merit. Attackers can be, and are frequently, armed, and it would certainly help if someone were more familiar with such things.

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Why would it contradict training? The purpose of training is the improvement of the individual. If the purpose of training were solely the regimentation of the individual into a set way of doing things (the theoretical "best way of doing things"), then military training would be the epitome of hand-to-hand combat skills, which it most certainly isn't.

It is not the individual over the training. Mike Tyson doing Wu Shu would not be as dangerous as Mike Tyson boxing, yet it would be the same individual doing it. If Mike Tyson could pull off Wu Shu it would validate you saying it's the individual over the style, but that has been proven false so many times and in so many different venues it just does not fly.

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There again is a significant problem- the McDojoistas use that as a cover for their own ineptitude, and again, they are about as "traditional" as McDonald's is "fine cuisine".

Bring on the real traditionalists, I always hear about them, but they are like Aliens or UFOs, there are plenty of people who have seen them, but they are so rare and secret they have no bearing on the day to day reality of anything, including martial arts or self-defense.

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Virtually all of the koryu masters I have known, are all too happy to demonstrate what they know, IF they are approached in the correct fashion. Approach them with a desire to learn, and they're happy to accomodate. Approach them like you want a 'UFC' match, and you'll get nothing.

I do not have time or money to go and seek the true koryo masters you speak of. I learned martial arts because I was a guard in a jail where the inmates out numbered me by 6 to 1 every day. I had no pepper spray, no impact weapons, just me.

I felt I had a real need to learn to learn how to fight anyone, since I could not know the history of the inmates. I needed to counter them all and I did not have the time, money, or energy to get a black belt from some real master even if I could have found one, which, by your own admission really are a rare breed.

I do not really care to fight in the UFC, I am not a gifted MA and I don't like pain. But, when I see Royce Gracie go in there and win against any one from any style and then I look at the history of fighters with a base in BJJ/GJJ, boxing, kick boxing, and wrestling consistantly beating any other style. Well, lets just say, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what really works, its all in the stats.

Like I said, even if there are aliens and TMA masters out there who can take me, it really makes no difference, they are so rare, the stats tell me they are no threat to me. I choose to spend my time training for the more likely threats out there. I carry a Glock and a Cold Steel for the real masters you have been blessed to train with.