No media debate on Asia is complete without comparing India to China, or vice-versa. Even among middle-class media consumers, there is a barely disguised contempt for the slow pace of growth in democratic India, for all the “obstacles” in the path of progress and development, compared with the frenetic pace in The Middle Kingdom.

On top is a CNN video of its Beijing correspondent attempting to go to Tiananmen Square on 4 June 2009, the 20th anniversary of the massacre, before being engulfed by umbrella-weilding “undercover” police.

As the legendary Atlantic Monthly correspondent James Fallows, now based in Beijing, writes:

“This is the kind of thing that makes you hold your head and say: Rising major power in the world?”

And this, on top of a ban on Twitter and Facebook, and censorship of television stories which begin with “In China today…” or “Twenty years ago in Bei….”

42 comments

I place China and Middle east countries like Saudi in the same category. Both of these places are ruled by people who think different and act different..almost arrogantly, with no concerns for human rights or the freedom of thought..You see development in such countries all over, but absolutely no intellectual/humane development..Ample example of how the whole world follows this bitter truth of Money(maybe fuel too) means everything !

Its a very thought provoking post. Freedom of press has always been the integral part of Indian Philosophy. China has a totally different thought process with government selecting things it wants to hear and not what it should hear.. thats the only reason why baidu is more popular than google in china…. the dragon and the tiger are polls apart.

The big difference between India and China is Freedom!!
We have the freedom of expression and we are free to access any internet sites/ information. We also have the freedom to protest.
People here at Churumuri, keep criticizing policies n policy makers, throw brickbats also.

In case of China, everything is under state control and internet access is higly controlled. Many of their growth digits are manufatcured to show the growth rate as constant. State rules the roost unlike individuals here in India.

Praise/Slander China as much as one may, the fact remains, i am yet to meet a single chinese who is not proud of being chinese or of being in china today. I am yet to meet one person who says he/she is not happy with the way things are in china.

(this excludes ppl of chinese origin who are brought up outside china, they just repeat whatever western media like BBC/CNN newsreaders say!)

Praise/Slander China as much as one may, the fact remains, i am yet to meet a single chinese who is not proud of being chinese or of being in china today. I am yet to meet one person who says he/she is not happy with the way things are in china.

How true indeed. All of my Chinese are proud of being Chinese and say life in general is good there. China is far ahead of India in everything at the moment–but how long can this last in an authoritarian regime? But perhaps it works for China just as Japan’s system works for it and cannot be called fully democratic.
India’s democracy is a farce–with a large illiterate population reelecting a family run party run party that has brought about the culture of obsequiousness and servility into the political culture –go to the Bimaru States in India and you will correct your opinions about how great India is doing….The population heading to reach 2 billion….
How free is India really? The Indian press is booklicker not interested in the truth…I guess Indians can but look at the “dismal” state of their democracy and pat themselves on the back, comparing themselves to failed states. How about comparing to the best democracies and not failed states? Where does India stand then. I am tired of Indians patting themselves comparing themselves to places in the Mid East…
India has a long way to go, and it is evident that the changes this government will bring about will just be cosmetic, unless the changes are structural at the national level I do not forsee a good future for India…For this a strong central government is needed. Imagine a fourfold increase in population since independence…how many Indians are deprived of a decent future by this simple fact of overcrowing to the point of not being able to breathe in certain areas?
I see a lot of smugness about the state of affairs…I do not think anyone in their right state of mind can say India is headed in a good direction…OK some more business and buildings and some for foreign investment, but unless things are changed at the structural level nationally India is not going anywhere…and this government is not the one to bring those changes….

***

Is this to sidetrack the dismal state of things in India, by comparing India to China whose economy is three times larger and trying to point out that because India has a democracy that is more like a “farce” that India is doing better than China? The Chinese are all fiercely nationalists and love their country!

For people who haven’t met a Chinese who does not like being Chinese, you probably will not meet such a person. This is because, no one other than us Indians is degraded enough and tell foreigners that we don’t like our own country.

1. I have never heard of any Chinese and Chinese media compare China with India with a straight face, except the Indians and India press. How odd is that? LOL.

Vast majority of China vs India articles in the web come directly from Indian origin, with the rest come from either some armchair West media with clear ulterior motives, or some Indian hot-headed expats in the West who use such a daydream as the only psychological balance to their profound inferiority complex.

2. Indians “Four Great Inventions” in the internet era

Invention A —– “We are the biggest democracy”

Biggest? True! Democracy? A shamble! Democracy was a good word until India came alone.

Which only democracy in the entire world who has the largest population, both percentage-wise and in absolute number term, going to bed every day with empty stomachs? India!

Which only democracy in the entire world where half of its women are illiterate, with the number for men is only slightly lower? India!

Which only democracy in the world where 70% of all children are malnutritious? India!

Put it into perspective, if there are more than 10 Indian posters in this blog, statistically speaking, on average 7 of out of these 10 have grown up having malnutrition, with at least half of women and 1 out of 3 men in their family are illiterate. Hey, no offence, but this is the reality!

Invention B —– “We are free” (as per this article)

If the difference btw China and India is freedom, which only shows in several days of the year of extremely political sensitivity, namely some anniversary of Tibet , or anniversary of Tiananmen, etc., then we must not forget to compare the full spectrum of freedom for most citizens during the rest 360 days of a year.

For the rest 360 days, any ordinary Chinese in China is free to do whatever they want, except to organise some movements to overthrow the CCP govt, for good or for bad; While ordinary Indians in India are free to pee and poo wherever they want (literally), except to freely have a dream how to feed their stomachs and have a better tomorrow.

Invention C —– “Indians are the richest immigrant community in the US, with 4 out of top 10 richest men in the world are Indians”

If any other country in the world (except perhaps those in Africa) successfully exported the best of their human resources to the US as India did, this country’s immigrant community in the US would have been better than that of Indian. Get the fact straight: the vast majority of the best brains of China are still in China instead of the US. And the fact is no country, or very few countries in the world, is willing to export the best of its human resource bulk to US except India!

4 out of 10 richest individual? LOL, I say even 10 out of 10, so what? So good for these 4 individuals (most of them mainly have their primary home address and time spent outside India anyway, no surprise also), who still has nothing to do with those 1 billion plus desperately-poor people in India!

Invention D —— “We are more sustainable”

Sorry to disturb your daydream here:

System-wise more sustainable? NO! With hundreds of political parties, hundreds of languages, thousands of religions, much more corrupted bureaucrats than most countries in the world(including China), and sea of illiterate constituencies who only manage to learn how to print their thumbs as signatures to cast votes, India is a disaster in the making, let alone sustainability.

Human resource-wise more sustainable? NO! Without population control, most people born will most likely to be illiterate and malnutritious if they manage to survive into adulthood. With very limited natural resources available, it is a humanitarian time bomb instead of a so called “demographic dividend”!

Look we don’t mind you getting blue veiner or even a diamond cutter thinking about the greatness of The Middle Kingdom!

A cursory glance at your scholastic debating point shows very clearly you are just a die-hard commie hack!

Let me rebut your Confucius logic point by point:

1. 1. I have never heard of any Chinese and Chinese media compare China with India with a straight face, except the Indians and India press. How odd is that? LOL.

//It is simple: that’s because there is no Chinese media. There is only China Daily for the likes of you!//

2. Four Indian Inventions
Invention A —– “We are the biggest democracy”
//Absolutely! We are a democracy with Indian characteristics. BTW going by your logic we Indians can claim with simple justification Chinese are born with defects such as ‘less’ spatial vision and extreme thin bones and even worse dental hygiene! So shove your racial arrogance where Sun does not shine!//

Invention B –“We are free” (as per this article)

//Only a retarded moron can make this argument! The whole World knows we Indians are a free society! You have some restricted Chinese holidays for democracy during Tienanmen and Tibet and other pogrom-related issues and the rest of the year it is all Freedom Noodles is it? Really? LOL. Try some tortoise soup–that should quicken your brain a little.//

Invention C —– “Indians are the richest immigrant community in the US, with 4 out of top 10 richest men in the world are Indians”

//This is borne out by statistics and you may have a hard time accepting it except falling back on some lame ass premise like the best wok chefs and sundry washer men and women are still China. Well you know what good for them!//

Invention D —— “We are more sustainable”
//Absolutely! The government is not up to counting the number of children a couple can have! Rather they believe it is best left to married couples. Hard for you to follow right?//

No I am not for the authoritarian regime in China and praising it, neither am I basing India. I am just recognizing that India’s democracy is not a great success as people smugly like to think. Time to get a reality check and to focus on the real problems than on patting oneself on the back for failures.
–The rise of China is just good for the Chinese….Everyone other than Chinese more or less agrees with this point of view. That is why I do not care for it at all. All authoritarian regimes are distasteful, but that does not mean India’s democracy is great and flawless either and this is not to ignore the good things in India.

***

ndians take a look at the above Chinese attitude and how they view their country and India! My American friends still recall how poor China was in the fifites! And Nehru gave them the seat on the Security Council–what a naive fool who spoke of Indian Chinese bhai bhai. Look at how the Chinese view Indians and take a lesson for your smugness, China started out way poorer than India…What has gone abysmally wrong in India? This is what needs to be asked.

…..i am yet to meet a single chinese who is not proud of being
chinese or of being in china today. I am yet to meet one person who
says he/she is not happy with the way things are in china….

How true indeed

Re-read and introspect. It will dawn on thee, unlike the basic freedoms that never dawns on the red state, that this is plain stupid. I’m sure in under 10 minutes, sans the umbrella donning jokers at the T-square, you are sure to find 100s of chinese that are NOT happy with the way things are in China. Else what the freak are the secret police doing in T-Sq, synchronized sashaying ?

..authoritarian regime? But perhaps it works for China ..

Why does that sound like pretty sour-grapes ? Because it is ! Thanks, but no Thanks. We have tried authoritarian regime for 400 years by the Brits and some before that by our own –we don’t like it. Not one bit.

-India’s democracy is a farce
-India has a long way to go
-The population heading to reach 2 billion….

Our democracy is far from perfect. I’m sure 1 of 2 people here will concede that. BUT WE ARE A DEMOCRACY DAMN IT ! You Chinese are
NOT. That’s the truth. And it is so lame to argue how the authoritarian regime works.In the long run, it never does.

It is insulting to the people who lost their lives at T-Sq. The likes of you who claim to be happy-proud Chinese are not only being ostriches with their head in the sand(or behinds), but are insulting the few spines that dared to stand up in 89. Instead of celebrating the brave souls — as would have been done the world over, you morons clamp down to marr any peaceful protests ?

Get the fact straight: the vast majority of the best brains of China are still in China instead of the US.

You ought to get your facts straight ; your Peking ducks in a row. China does export and exceed India’s human export. When was the last time you were in a US city that did not have a China town ? Go look at the US University admission stats ..

With hundreds of political parties, hundreds of languages, thousands of religions..

Freedom of expression, Freedom of religion, Freedom of …

Wait a minute. Not your fault dear. You would not understand freedom. It’s Freeee Dom. If you are lucky and get your heads out of your behinds, some day, you could smell it differently . In it’s pure, nascent form…

In India one maybe illiterate, but can have his/her voice heard. But in China, it does not matter. You will never be heard. You are just herded, like neutered pigs. Again it’s that Free Dom thingy that you guys don’t have.

Without population control, most people born will most likely to ..it is a humanitarian time bomb

Couldn’t agree more. Accepting reality, introspection are a part of democracy you see. How would you know that ? Not your fault dear. So we adop the famous Chinese force neuter aproach to population control ? Cannot do that in a D E M O C R A C Y . You see, we have R
I G H T S and F R D E E D O M. Again, you would not know..

I can cut paste a ton of more articles that paint Chinese youth as being in denial and immersing in materialism. Or you can google yourself. Wait a minute ! You may not be ALLOWED to do that ?

Add to that, China being the most populous nation, ahead of India, with commies force feeding dragon crap. It can be tolerated only for so long ? Isn’t that’s more of a ticking time-bomb ?

We have an old saying : Be careful when pointing fingers, for 3 point right back at you. You ought to keep that in mind. Sure China is doing better, but the foundation of a clamped down regime can only take so much before it crumbles.

When you still have time, respect your heroes (of T-sq) and do something to get your heads out of your behinds.

Corruption can be measured when you deem something corrupt. But if the state is complicit and inherently has scared the living daylights out of it’s subjects, to ensure NO protests, how can you be sure India is more corrupt ? Case in point, your under-aged gymnasts as the olympics. Don’t bother to defend that. The world saw it.

The youth in China swarming the cyber cafes do forget the fact about how China got here. Sweatshops ring a bell ? You can find a dime a dozen articles on Chinese Sweatshops

Let me just say that both India and China have their strengths and weaknesses and I am sure we will all work it out eventually. I don’t think it matters if it takes 20 years or 50 years, but we will get better. Hum honge kaamyaab (we will be successful, both Indians and Chinese).

With the PC crap out of the way, let’s see what we are talking about here. India and China. Both countries with tremendous brain power and thousands of years of history. Great cultures and a tradition for scholarship. Being an Indian, I will talk more about India. It is true India has tremendous challenges. But who doesn’t. We have shown remarkable resilience and come a long distance from 1947. We still have a long way to go heaven knows, but we are not that badly off. With the democratization of knowledge and easy access (web, internet and all), it is a matter of time when the true democracy (some may call it democrazy) will reach all of India. There is a grassroots awakening in India, just watch all the rural movements taking place. Again, some places like Bimaru may take longer but happen it will.

I am sure China will emerge out of their history of dictatorship as well. They have the culture and education to look after their own country and interests. Again the Internet will play a major role and they will become truly democratic sooner or later.

Say, by 2050, we are both advanced nations. What do we do then? We should look forward to a shared future. Dare I say an economic union? An open border like the EU? We need to think long term and big, rather than indulge in petty comparisons and games of one-upmanship.

Writer Jiang Qisheng, who was jailed in 1999 for asking the government to hold an inquiry into the massacre, said: “Since yesterday, I have been prevented from going anywhere.”

Leading dissident Ding Zilin, whose son was one of the students killed, added: “They won’t even let me go out to buy vegetables.”

More of the disgraceful clampdown. Leave alone posting here Chinese Century, I’m surprised you can wake up each day and can look yourself in the mirror. Isn’t there an iota of shame that you supporting such scumbags ?

Larissa – You can not hope to argue with people who are blinded by false pride. I fail to understand this denial of Indians, why not simply admit that we are nowhere near Chinese with respect to governance? Everyone giving handjob to each other, everyone wet and happy.

Looking at some here who “tried” to “debunk” (so-called) my thoughts with some dimming “logic” which in itself filled with moronic “shining” points in their own right, a sane and logical person just doesn’t know from where to start to correct you words by words, but instead can not help appreciating my previous small forecast (theory of “7 out of 10”) on the fundamental characteristics of the posters. So It seems that there’s no need for me to waste my time to teach you ABC here, since you people have already tastfully reconfirmed the current pathetic statue of your Hunger Index with the follow-up posts. When was the last time you guys had a decent meal I wonder, if this question is not a tough challenge to your long-term memory?

@Chinese Century (Whatever),
That’s the best you got champ ? Generalized laments and no specific rebuttals ? Why does that sound like a cornered dimwit ? Did you exhaust the talking points given by your commie masters ?

I’m sure none in this forum went to bed hungry ; but we also do realize many of our countrymen do. So do your countrymen, albeit to a lesser extent(37%). So unless you have something substantial and intelligent, you are better of NOT wasting your time or wit here.

PS : When you LMAO, be careful ! Remember, your head is firmly lodged, with reason, between your glutes ? It may get dislodged and anger your authoritarian masters ! :-)

Ravi,
Did you hear of how Chinese Centrury spoke of India? Most likely he is a government official who is paid to respond to everything negative about China on the Web.
However, one cannot deny that there are problems in India as he points out. But why do you go back to such Nehruvian nonsense about a shared future with China? Do you see any Chinese thinking the way you do? No. They are aggressive and push only for their national interests. So why speak of China-India bhai bhai? I do not see this happening. Indians have to stop the Nehruvian nonsense.
Chinese Century,
I had a friend who was in China. He wandered accidentally into the rural areas that tourists were not allowed to go into and was arrested and subsequently released and he was a British citizen. He said that the poverty in certain parts was comparable to India–areas that outsiders are not allowed to see….
Second there is democracy in India, so Indians cannot force people to engage in forced slave labor to produce goods for the government. Also whenever an area needs to be evacuated the Chinese just force out the people–And so on. In India you cannot do this in the Chinese fashion and treat people like cattle.
Indians are performng despite their government. The “best” brains do not go to the US as you think. They stay at home but the system does not ensure an outlet for them so their talent gets wasted.
I will be impressed with China the day the produce something uniquely Chinese which is not just a monkeying of the West, and when they produce something that inspire others as an example. Until then no one cares about the rise of China because it is only for the Chinese and brings no benefit to others….

***

Say, by 2050, we are both advanced nations. What do we do then? We should look forward to a shared future. Dare I say an economic union? An open border like the EU? We need to think long term and big, rather than indulge in petty comparisons and games of one-upmanship.

Quit your Nehruvian dreaming man! Open borders–with the likes of Pakistan and Bangladesh? How very naive…The EU even probably will not last with the way things are going…

***

edit for above
@Peace
Chinese Century , Larissa,

Why do you put me on the same scale as Chinese Century? I am not praising China nor do I want to imitate them, but I do not like the current system in India…I am simply recognizing that India should quit comparing itself to all the failed states and stop patting itself on the back for being better than failed states and start comapring itself to well functioning democracies and see where it falls short….

**

Chinese Century,
Your people eat insects and every crawling, creeping living creature imaginable, sparing nothing. In this sense they are likely to survive where others do not! You have a point there!

@Larissa,
My bad. I started addressing a point you made that Chinese Century picked up on. I should have delineated the rest of my comments and NOT put you in the same boat as the paid imbecile. I understand why you feel insulted. I would have too.

larissa Says:

7 June 2009 at 10:19 pm
No I am not for the authoritarian regime in China and praising it, neither am I basing India. ..

****

I agree with what you have said in the above comments.

I’m sure none here deny China is doing better. They have been able to get a handle on their poverty and make a visible change ; They are investing like crazy in their infrastructure ; they have been successful in grabbing a huge chunk of the US-global manufacturing base despite US’s disdain for them ; they hold a major stake in US’s debt. In short, suffices to say that China is a major player who calls shots and many in the developed world heed, albeit grudgingly…

India, the largest democracy by population, has had it’s woes. Could things have been better ? You bet. Is abject poverty still rampant ? It is. Is corruption rife ? You got that right. But there’s a difference. To call India’s democracy, despite it’s flaws, a farce, is stupidity. That too by whom ? A Chinese commie stooge who has his head firmly in his behind. He likens the freedon he has (what a joke) to what’s in India ? What does he know about freedoms ? In all fairness he is a paid stooge, a youth in denial who is insulting the sacrifices made in T-sq..

If India has one thing that’s going for it, however fractured, it is it’s democracy. Can you imagine India in any other form of ruling ? Need a case in point ? Look at Pakistan ! Yes the illiterates in India vote for the name-face-symbol and not for the issues. It’s changing. Pollsters and pundits alike were trumped in the last few elections. There is a mini awakening in the mammoth. One cannot expect a miracle oevrnight ; but slowly the democratic India’s position, entrenched between an on again – off again dictatorship in Pakistan and Commies in China, is emerging — as a much needed counter balance in the region..

Could India have done better? You bet. But considering the circumstances, the huge diversity, the democracy and the sheer scope of the nation, in the last 2 decades, it has done pretty well.

Send those Tibetans and the Dalai Lama back to Tibet. Let us get back some of our tax money. What have they done for us? Better what to they do? Where do they get the money to spend at Brigade Road and its environs?

Dreams are what create a new future. We can wallow in the cold war mentality of the 2nd millennium or move forward to a new beginning. Someone has to start dreaming, or we will just have the same nirvana that we have today.

I didn’t say we give up all our national interests. All I am saying is that think of a future when we will have open borders and a possibility of an economic union. Einstein once said, if you keep doing the same things again and again, don’t expect different results. If you want to create something new, then start thinking in different ways.

I agree that the expansionist and hegemonic China seems to be a far cry from what I am talking about. But you are forgetting one very important factor and that’s called the internet. I am sure it will make a huge difference in how we think about the humanity as a whole, not just in terms of nations. When the interactions increase, we will develop a new respect for different cultures and different peoples. I don’t see why it can’t happen between India and China.

India is too big and too powerful to be a pushover that it was in the 50s and 60s, so I don’t think we need to worry about them in any manner. I think we should continue to build our defense forces and always have be a strong nation. But that does not preclude us from engaging other peoples at economic/cultural levels. This can’t happen unless we think long term.

Don’t worry about the likes of Chinese Century. He/She does not represent all of China, perhaps as you said, just the govt. The govt will have to change or be runover by the tide that is coming sooner or later.

You guys would be grossly flattered if some “Chinese Govt Offical being paid to post “here in a tiny unknown personal webblog amongst 30 million blogs or so out there. Whom the h*** you think you are? LMAO. Because of this ridiculous thought of yours, I take back my support to you as I previous claimed, because we are just not on the same page as it might look like. It also reminds me of the # 6th. Invention of the losers, which goes:” He/she is a paid communist official to post” . ROFL

As for your Brit friend who was not allowed to enter a certain place in China, and claimed therefore there are areas closed for outsiders because of proverty. You are nuts as the rest pack if you believe that becuase there is no whatsoever logic behind. Apart from military areas, some high tech reserach areas and some politically highly sensitive areas ( especially realted to Tibetan areas in and outside Tibet Province), everywhere in CHina is wide open for tourists, domestic and foreign. there are about 130 million in bound tourists to China every year in ALL corners of China, with trens of thousand perminent residents! If that were true, then your brit friend would have been the headline story of worldwide news long ago. Go check CNN, BBC, youtube, google Earth, whatever webiste.

So either you or your Brit friend is a moronic and low-witted liar, or both are. It is because logically, it is pathetic to say the least. Plus, as anyone in the world knows that Chinese currency is artificially kept vey low – at least 40% lower according to nearly all Western thank tanks. Some even claim it is 100-150% lower than what it should be if openly traded. Therefore, whatever 37% figure some of your came up with means nothing, nil, zero, in light of fair exchange rate , because most of there poor people would be easily become middle-class equivalents in India should the currency change rate control lossens, which is well on its track.

OK I got it! DB has solved the puzzle! Chinese Century is ‘El Mao’ only he chooses to write it as ‘LMAO’ !! That is his calling card! He is the ace reporter from the only newspaper ever to come out of China–China Daily. Take a bow ‘El Mao’ you will be given a food coupon in the company’s canteen that will keep you going for a week or so. Also there will be a Lai See Red Packet stuffed with Yuan–the strongest currency in the World. With this money you should be able to buy all the noodle factories in California to feed your hungry population. But wait you will also be given a copy of the latest Oxford University Press English-Chinese dictionary.

larissa:
No chinese claims China is rich even China GDP is 3X more than India. Sure, you can always find some place in China which are pretty poor just like you can always find some chinese going to bed without a meal even though the hungry popullation of China is very small comparing to India. Is it nationwide? The statistic which I posted can tell more. and I didnot post the statistic about the consumption of TVs, cellphones, cars, washmachines and the astonished meat consumption: 56kg vs 3kg (OK, all indian are vegetarian).

By the way, why do you worry about ” how long can this last in an authoritarian regime”? India has been a democracy since 1947 and it is still the greatest democracy along with the greatest poor and hunger. How long can this last in a democracy regime?

Apart from military areas, some high tech reserach areas and some politically highly sensitive areas ( especially realted to Tibetan areas in and outside Tibet Province), everywhere in CHina is wide open for tourists, domestic and foreign. there are about 130 million in bound tourists to China every year in ALL corners of China, with trens of thousand perminent residents! If that were true, then your brit friend would have been the headline story of worldwide news long ago. Go check CNN, BBC, youtube, google Earth, whatever webiste.

No this was several years ago. They thought he was a spy because he had a British passport and later released him quickly when they realized he was just a tourist who had strayed accidentally into closed areas….

***

By the way, why do you worry about ” how long can this last in an authoritarian regime”? India has been a democracy since 1947 and it is still the greatest democracy along with the greatest poor and hunger. How long can this last in a democracy regime?

I agree with you for the most part. But how to respect the dignity of people and progress–that is what one has to do–and it is hard to progress in a “democracy”–India’s challenge is how to get everyone to respect the law without treating people like cattle as they do in China…I never said India’s democracy is not without problems…Moreover, look at the neighborhood India is in…Look at Pakistan which China helps…