7/30 A linux story:
http://xkcd.com/456
\_ http://www.eegra.com/show/sub/do/browse/cat/comics/id/36http://www.explosm.net/comics/1337http://www.explosm.net/comics/1323http://www.explosm.net/comics/1219
\_ Cyanide and Happiness? That comic is rarely funny--more often
just plain nasty.
\_ I'm going with stupid. The first one in particular.
\_ The eegra one is referencing Ctrl-Alt-Del ... this
storyline in particular.
http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20080602
\_ Yeah, I know. It's still dumb. -!pp
\_ Well, I think xkcd is hardly ever funny. Did you
really laugh at that linux one? What's the joke,
oh look someone got into linux, haha? xkcd has
a ton of duds and the "famous" strips are more
poignant than funny.
\_ Making fun of CAD is like beating up MS sufferers.
It's not exactly something to be proud of.
\_ I think almost all daily comics are rarely funny.
The Far Side was funny pretty often. Calvin & Hobbes
at least felt "worth reading" if it wasn't funny per
se.
\_ Get Fuzzy (though often the funniest bits are not
the final punchlines). Pearls before Swine (hit or
miss, but more hit than miss). Cul De Sac.
\_ how often do you actually laugh at those?
\_ More of a wry chuckle
\_ FoxTrot was generally funny when it was a daily

7/30 "Neighborhood Walkability Linked to Weight"
http://www.csua.org/u/lzh (http://www.webmd.com
"People in the study who lived in the most walkable neighborhoods
weighed an average of 8 pounds less than people who lived in the least
walkable areas."
"Neighborhoods built before 1950 tended to have sidewalks and other
characteristics that made them more accessible to pedestrians, ......
In general, newer neighborhoods offered fewer opportunities for
walking."
Not all suburbs are the same.
\_ Yeah, take Saratoga for example - no sidewalks or street lights.
\_ San Francisco: 2nd skinniest county in America
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5n2wft (Money Magazine)
\_ Just in front of Williamson County, Tennessee, well-known as
a walkable urban center.

7/30 Can I CCW a gun into say, a post office?
\_ no.
How about other government buildings?
\_ no.
\_ Incorrect. State or City gov't buildings are covered by CCW.
\_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station
or courthouse. I'll be there with the camera taking pictures
of your surprise.
\_ I'd like to see you take them into a police station or
courthouse. I'll be there with the camera taking pictures of
your surprise.
\_ A CCW covers any local or state building or meeting
required to be open to the public.
\_ I dunno, cops go into these things all the time and they
are all armed. They just take off their side arms when
they go through the metal detector. I imagine it would
go more or less like that, in fact most cops would probably
just think you were undercover or something.
\_ right, except they actually have real badges
and you have a frigging commoner's CCW permit
\_ Of course I've *been* in a courthouse with a CCW
while carrying, no problem. (No metal detector
either.)
\_ Where? San Diego and most SFBA Courthouses screen
with metal detectors.
What happens when you have to go through the airport and they scan
you, can you just show them your CCW permit and carry your gun inside
the building?
\_ you go to jail. actually i lied. they take you to stupid
person's jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
\_ you go to jail. actually i lied. they take you to dumbass
jail, which is deep underneath the real jail.
\_ Read the CA law. The permit is for CA, not for federal property.
Airports have specific regulations about guns.
\_ In an airport, a CCW covers you up to the sterile area. No
exceptions for firearms beyond that (see CA penal code 171.5(b)(1))
\_ If you're dumb enough to carry a gun to an airport these days,
I think you should stay home.
\_ But I want to be a hero like emarkp and save innocent
people from TERRORISTS!!! -emarkp #1 fan

7/30 To destroy Al Qaeda, we must end the war on terror: Rand Corporation
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/29/to-destroy-al-qaeda.html
not really news except to dittoheads but maybe this is progress
\_ Wow, you're right! That sure prevented 9/11!
\_ Please to be pointing out how the current war on terror has
actually done anything to prevent anyone flying passenger planes
into buildings. Thicker cockpit doors don't count.
\_ I already demonstrated how *no* war on terror didn't destroy
Al Qaeda.
\_ ...splodey brain.
\_ It is really a war for hearts and minds, which we have
finally started to figure out in Iraq. Bullets are not
really that useful in this war, except maybe as the
stick that goes with the carrot.

7/30 Financial aid question:
If a wife applies for financial aid do they consider
the husband's salary?
\_ yes
salary? What if the woman is partially through the program already
What if the woman is partially through the program already
when she gets married? Does that affect anything? Would it be in
\_ Doesn't seem to affect loans, except perhaps the ratio of sub
vs. unsub loans. Parental income (or more importantly lack of
income) can have an effect, even if the student is independent
of parental support and is married. And yes, for med school
you apply for fin aid in March every year. -sony
\_ don't you apply for financial aid every year? when you get
divorced, you won't be around the next time she applies for
financial aid
\_ What do you mean "I won't be around"? I don't remember applying
for aid every year, by the way. I seem to recall just
applying up front, but it's been a long time.
their financial interests to get divorced?
\_ sounds like a lot of work just to scam the gov. out of a few
thousand dollars.
\_ It is probably worth more than just a few. Our marraige tax
\_ It is probably worth more than just a few. Our marriage tax
is a few thousand dollars alone. -!op
\_ 1. It could be tens of thousands.
2. It's not a scam. If she has no income then she has no income
regardless if I make a good salary. The loan is her
responsibility to pay back, not mine.
\_ I don't think the IRS sees it that way. Real Accountants
please chime in, but if your wife is working, and you
are, you are pooling your income to provide food
please chime in, but if your wife is not working while
in school, and you are working your high salary
job, you are pooling your income to provide food
shelter savings trips to see the 'rents in the suburbs.
i dont think she really has no income. at the end of
the month do you bill your wife for shared expenses
like toilet paper and internet?
\_ does it work out that way if you're married? really?
i don't think so. so you're going to kick your
poor bankrupt wife out on the street later? i'm not
trying to be annoying, now I, not the op, am curious.
\_ You mean you don't itemize your wife?
\_ Her debts that she acquires after you are married
are community responsibilities. So yes, you have to
repay them.
\_ I don't believe this to be true. Why would you be
responsible if your wife goes wacky and applies for $3M
in debt in her name using only her income on the
application?
Addendum: The above is true (husband is responsible
regardless) in community property states, which are:
Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho and
Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho,
Washington, Texas, Wisconsin and Louisiana.
In Alaska, couples can opt in for community property.
You can file in community property states to make
property Sole and Separate (and back again), but
I wonder if you you can do that with debts.
\_ Many, many spouses "go wacky" during a divorce
and ruin both parties credit out of spite.
\_ Sounds like you need to move to a state not
on the above list if that happens.
3. So is the lesson here not to marry a medical student until
she's finished school or you'll hose her aid? That could be
years.

7/30 Can I CCW a gun into say, a post office? How about other
government buildings? What happens when you have to go through
the airport and they scan you, can you just show them your
CCW permit and carry your gun inside the building?
\_ Read the CA law. The permit is for CA, not for federal property.
Airports have specific regulations about guns.

7/30 SF is about to build a 2 mile subway from Chinatown to
the ballpark, going UNDER Powell BART. Powell BART leaks
like a sieve and BART needs to pump thousands of gallons of water
out of the station daily. They actually have trash cans out
in key parts of the station to collect water. Somehow I don't think
the might SF corp of civil engineers have taken into consideration
all of this crap they are going to have to build their gajillion
dollar tunnel of shit under.
\_ I hadn't heard about this. I assume there will be some easy
transfer from BART to the new line? By gondola perhaps?
\_ Ever use muni?
\_ they will use HOMOSEXUAL FAIRY MAGIC
\_ There will be an underground walkway from Union Square Station to
Montgomery BART.
\_ All subways leak water. The NYC subway system would flood within
hours if electricity went out and the generators failed. It's
part of that whole "being 100 feet underground" thing. But you
should stay convinced that only you understand that water exists
and that civil engineers don't know anything about their jobs.
\_ you know I wouldn't put it past the city of sf to plan
this 1.7 subway going under some of the densest most expensive
real estate in the United States Of America, and totally
fucking it all up and it ends up costing something stupid
like 11 billion dollars. also the subway is part of a
gentrify the toxic waste dump that is Hunters Point and fill
it with pleasant white relaxed Google engineers who haven't
done their own laundry in years + gain political points with
the 40 percent population of sf Chinese people you never hear
about.
\_ *cough* Big Dig *cough*
\_ You know I wouldn't put it past you being an idiot.
\_ The gajillion dollar subway is part of a plan to gentrify
Hunters Point, it is hard to dispute that. The gajillion
dollar subway was planned to butter up the chinese sf
people.
\_ If you think civil engineers who work on subway
systems don't know tunnels leak water you are dumb.
\_ Apparently BATMAN is running SF's computer systems
these days. THE MOLE MAN might run city public works
\_ What is wrong with gentrifying Hunter's Point? You would
rather see a Superfund site there? And I can't see
what is wrong with actually serving your constituency.
The Chinatown buses are the most crowded in The City.
\_ Don't you know that the chinese aren't real people?
\_ I wouldn't trust the City of SF to plan the drainage in a desert.
\- maybe you can align the incentives by having Bechtel design a
tunnel which goes under the Bechtel Building. BTW, isn't the
rationale for this to connect 3rd street rail/caltrain to
downtown without going through surface traffic rather than
bringing chinese people to the ball park?
\_ No, when this is all done, there will actually be two
tunnels, two blocks apart: one for Muni and one for CalTrain.
This seems kind of stupid to me, but I see why they are
doing it.

7/31 Tell me again how City IS workers are all overpaid:
http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/sfpay2008/?appSession=45817914602221
\_ There are MANY governments in the US, from Alaska to Tenessee.
It is like a FREE MARKET for government loving employees. They
can go to any government branch they want, no one is FORCING them
to go to SF government. Free market is at force, and therefore
the pay is justified.
\_ You do realize this is their pay only through 6/13/08, which
means half a year's pay? Right? So 8,700 employees have been
paid at least $50K for half a year's work so far. Incredible.
(FWIW, there are 28K employees total so 1/3 make > $100K.)
\_ Where do you get the 28k employees?
\_ I STFW like you should do.
\_ City AND county?
\_ Same thing in SF:
http://tinyurl.com/6246nh
\_ you're reading it wrong; look at some of the examples, most
have "other pay" which is not part of their salary. The
salaries are quite low for IT people.
\_ No, I am not reading it wrong. Some of them do have "other
pay". Some do not. "Other pay" is still pay and for most
of them it's not that significant (less than 5% of
compensation).
\_ Do you know that they get it every year? Do you know
what's included? No. You're looking at a number that's
provided without details, and assuming it means what you
want it to mean.
\_ All you need to know is that:
1) Not every salary includes it.
2) Of the ones that do, it tends to be a very small
amount - so small as to not matter.
\_ So, what do you think the base pay should be for
the highest-paid IT guy in an organization of
10K+ people? How about the second highest-paid?
\_ I dunno. Strawman. We're talking about
8700 people, not the top 1 or 2.
\_ So? What do you think the 8700th
best-paid person should make in an
organization you don't even know the
size of?
\_ I do know the size. 28K people. And
you are a waste of time, because you
apparently cannot read (see above
where I stated the size).
\_ No, I did not realize this, thanks for straigtening me out.
I was astonished at how underpaid they were, now it looks
about the same as the private sector, which does seem kind
of high, given the bennies and job security they get.
\_ The same as the private sector? Maybe at the high end of
the private sector plus they are eligible for overtime. Check
out these median SF salaries for comparison:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/City=San_Francisco/Salary
\_ Most are not eligible for overtime, and the SF city
numbers posted above are not the median numbers, they're
the highest-paid staffers. The least expensive one on
the list is a senior IS business analyst; $100K is a
completely reasonable salary for that title.
\_ You do realize the list keeps going, right? So it's
not just the highest paid. It's everyone. The
highest paid person in SF made $264K for 6 months
of work. The second highest (a nurse) made $200K
including $128K of overtime. Of the 1000 highest paid
employees, there were only 4 IS employees. This
isn't just about IS. It's about 9000 people making
100K per year working for the city. We all know
that city employees work harder than anyone and only
the best and the brightest work for the city of SF.
It's reflected in the quality of the services provided.
Why you would defend this bloated piece of shit
organization is beyond me. Got a relative working
for the city?
\_ "In the first half of the 2008 calendar
year, the City and County of San Francisco
has more than 8,700 employees who have been
paid at least $50,000 (through June 13)."
You're misunderstanding the data; these are just
the 8700 top who've earned more than $50K so far
this year.
\_ Go to the link, you fuck. You can get the
salaries for the entire city. 8700 are just
the people who make over $100K.
\_ You are wrong, as usual and typically too
arrogant to admit it. Go to the link, pull
the drop down that says "See ALL" and hit
search. How many entries do you see? 8730.
There are far more city employees than that.
\_ Okay, you are correct that the bottom
2/3 are not listed, but what is your point?
What did I misunderstand? Nothing. I stated
in my very first paragraph that it was 1/3
of the city employees who make more than
$100K and in my last sentence above that
"8700 are just the people who make over
$100K". Tell me something I don't know.
\_ The point is you have provided no data
which suggest that SF city employees
are paid over the median or average.
\_ Look at the salaries and the
job titles. Compare to industry.
Rinse. Repeat.
\_ Yeah, I did, and it looks
pretty low.
\_ You are on crack. You think a
nurse making $200K in 6 months
is "pretty low"?
\_ You think a CEO making
$10 million in 6 months for
bankrupting his company is
"pretty low"? It's all
relative.
\_ No, I don't think that's
"pretty low". Regardless,
nursing wages are well
understood and $400K
is a lot for a nurse.
\_ The nurse makes $130k in
regular salary, as you know.
\_ Which, as you know,
is a lie to hide her
actual salary. Government
employees use that trick
a lot - especially
police and firemen.
I think her W-2 is
far more interesting
than her paper wage.
\_ Bullshit. You have no
idea what you are
talking about.
\_ Uh huh. Which is
why the facts
support me and
you have none
to support you.
\_ That quote is from the link. And you still
haven't answered how much you think
the 8700th-highest-paid city worker should
make.
\_ It's a stupid question not deserving
of an answer. The point here is that
the city pays the same as - or higher
than - industry for most jobs, which
is in direct contrast to the "poor
underpaid government employee" schtick
some SOBs on motd believe. The city
pays plenty of its employees higher than
the median salary. Maybe even all of them,
but we can't be sure of that because
we don't know what positions the
bottom 2/3 hold. Why does the city
employ 28K people anyway? Caltax says
that is 1.5x as many per capita as
Santa Clara, San Diego, or LA.
\_ you've provided no data which show
that the median city staffing salary
is higher than the median private
salary for comparable jobs.
\_ I don't have to show that. I
just have to show that 1/3 of
positions in the city pay higher
than the median in order to
prove that city employees can be
paid plenty well and hence are
hardly underpaid as a whole.
\_ If less than 1/3 make more than
the median you need to retake
your statistics classes.
\_ do you even understand what
a median is? If less than 50%
of city employees are paid
above the median, the class
"city employees" is underpaid.
And the average will be even
lower than the median, because
cities don't have CEOs pulling
down seven figures for running
their companies into bankruptcy.
\_ We can't compute the median
without more data. However,
there's a good bet that most of
the lowest paid workers are
not in job classifications
that matter. My argument
is not "the median city
employee makes more than
the median private sector
employee" (which might still be
true). My argument is that
city workers are often paid
plenty well - at least market
rate if not more.
\_ City workers are often
paid poorly, well under
market rate. Nice impasse,
eh? You could resolve it
by looking at median and
average earnings, but you
have no interest in doing
that. -tom
\_ I'll look at them if
you can find them.
However, the data we
do have contradicts
your statement.
\_ It does no such thing.
-tom
\_ Sure it does. The
jobs we can see are
paid as well as or
more than comparable
jobs in industry.
\_ Which says
nothing at all
about the median
or average, or
even about
people with
comparable
experience and
skill.
-tom
\_ We don't need
median or
average to
show that
they are not
"paid poorly".
All we need
are the
salaries,
which are not
"poor".
\_ The City is a unified City and County,
so it requires additional staffing. But
I agree that the number of employees
still seems to high.
\_ Not much more staffing, since there
are no other cities in the County
to manage and oversee.
\_ MUNI >> public transit in
LA/Santa Clara/San Diego, per
capita. -tom
\_ If true then that's SF's
own fault for having such an
expensive infrastructure
given the populace it serves.
\_ SF is providing more
services, therefore it
has more staff. I
hope you don't view
Santa Clara as the
greatest example of
city services. -tom
\_ Why is it providing
more services than
it needs to?
\_ It's not. -tom
\_ Apparently it is if
Santa Clara is
getting by just
fine with less.
\_ You're an idiot.
I'm done here.
-tom
\_ That's good
because you've
contributed
nothing of
value to the
discussion
except to
reiterate
your steadfast
belief that
government
workers are
poorly paid
even in the
face of facts
which show 1/3
make more
than the
median
attorney
salary.
\_ you're
an idiot.
\_ Clever
\_ That is what the residents
want, you know that, right?
\_ I'm not sure this is
true. If you give
the people want they
want they will spend
you to a multi-trillion
dollar deficit. If
SF is solvent then
no issues, I guess.
However, I read SF
is facing a $250M
deficit next year.
true. If you give the
people what they want
they will spend you to a
multi-trillion dollar
deficit. If SF is solvent
then no issues, I guess.
However, I read SF is
facing a $250M deficit
next year.
I live here and I can _/
assure you that this
is true. The voters
routinely vote for
increased taxes for
increased services.
The widely reported
$250M gap is being
closed by (gasp!)
rainy day funds,
which The City put
away during better
times and by a
hiring freeze. And
while $250M might
sound like a lot,
it is less than 4%
of the total budget.
What is the State of
CAs deficit this year?
How about Bush's?
\_ Actually, I haven't heard that the deficit
was covered. I did read that the Rainy Day
Fund is $122M, so it's not enough by itself.
And then what? Bush is a moron and a red
herring, but sure, other government sucks,
too. I won't argue that.
\_ So the City is doing better than the
the State and the Federal government
in this time of recession. I think we
can agree this is a testament to the
superior quality of SF City government.
Not sure why you think the Federal
deficit is a red herring, aren't we
talking about government fiscal
management here? How many companies
are running in the red right now? Check
out GMs deficit.
\_ If you want to argue that the Feds are
bigger fuckups than SF feel free. I
agree. However, that doesn't exonerate
SF.
Of course, you realize your argument is directly
at odds with your free market advocacy; if
the city jobs really are better-paying and easier,
they will naturally attract the best people.
\_ Markets are not efficient. I don't think
most people realize how much money is to be
made at the city. That's the point of
publicizing the salaries.
\_ You don't understand what you are looking at.
Those are the highest paid 8700 out of a work
force of over 27k. So over 2/3 make less than
$100k.
\_ I understand completely and you are restating
what I said. Is English your first language?
Your ignorance of SF City services is
showing. Don't you live in LA or something?
How many times have you even used a SF city service?
Most of them work good or even great, like the
public parks and libraries.
\_ The city couldn't even fire a guy who they
thought was a wacko and then he locked them
out of their own systems. Sounds like things
are going swimmingly.
\_ well he's still cooling his heels in jail.
i doubt he'll have a job for much longer.