ERP Solution for Metals Heat Treating Company

We are a metals heat treating company primarily serving the Aerospace Industry. We are looking for an ERP solution to serve our business needs. Our processes involve heat treating parts to a certain temperature and then cooling them down using differnt media (air, oil quench, water quench, etc.). Each job may involve more than one such processes. After a process, we measure Hardness to determine if the parts are good or if they'll require further processing. Also, we' d like to schedule jobs such that, in a 24 hour period, a furnace processes jobs in increasing temperature sequence and the next 24 hour cycle, it processes jobs in decreasing process temperature sequence, thereby eliminating furnace temperature fluctuation and waste of energy and time.

So far we've evaluated Infor Visual system. It has some good features, but lack a number of things we're intereseted in. First, we'd like the system to indicate when the furnace is ready, and once parts are loaded, monitor heat treat duration (we have a separate system collecting temperature data that the new system can used for this). Second, the scheduling as discussed above. Third, the conditional situation of Hardness values after a process determining the next process step.

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There is a product called Visual Shop that is made expressly for the heat treating and coating industry. The publisher is Cornerstone Systems, Inc. located in Crystal Lake Illinois. The product focuses on managing customer order, scheduling and the flow through the shop floor.

>We are a metals heat treating company primarily serving the
>Aerospace Industry. We are looking for an ERP solution to serve our
>business needs. Our processes involve heat treating parts to a
>certain temperature and then cooling them down using differnt media
>(air, oil quench, water quench, etc.). Each job may involve more
>than one such processes. After a process, we measure Hardness to
>determine if the parts are good or if they'll require further
>processing. Also, we' d like to schedule jobs such that, in a 24
>hour period, a furnace processes jobs in increasing temperature
>sequence and the next 24 hour cycle, it processes jobs in decreasing
>process temperature sequence, thereby eliminating furnace
>temperature fluctuation and waste of energy and time.
>
>So far we've evaluated Infor Visual system. It has some good
>features, but lack a number of things we're intereseted in. First,
>we'd like the system to indicate when the furnace is ready, and once
>parts are loaded, monitor heat treat duration (we have a separate
>system collecting temperature data that the new system can used for
>this). Second, the scheduling as discussed above. Third, the
>conditional situation of Hardness values after a process determining
>the next process step.
>
>We'd greatly appreciate any feedback and suggestions.

Interesting comments regarding your evaluation. I assume you have reviewed VISUAL's Scheduling and Business Intelligence modules. As those modules match your requirements description perfectly, I would also assume that you are listing the items you like about VISUAL and not the features you don't like.

If you have any other specific questions regarding your evaluation, I am sure you will get plenty of feedback on this message board.

ITtoolbox erp-select
HeatTreater,
I am surprised that you are looking for an ERP system with a strong scheduling functionality, particuarly after evaluating Infor's Visual system which has a powerful scheduling module according to Pratzy. You also want the software to help in real-time decision making on furnace loading. From the clarity of your description of scheduling issues, you seem to fully understand the importance of scheduling in your system. Pratzy or his colleagues should demonstrate to you how to use Visual scheduling module for your needs.

If you are very serious about the scheduling aspects (which can make a big difference in your shop performance) and you are unable to find an off-the-shelf scheduling module for your specific needs, you may explore a cost-effective custom solution and add it to any ERP system that serves as an efficient information system. The best-of-breed third party tools can make a real difference in this kind of situations.

ITtoolbox erp-selectHello HeatTreater,
I used to work for a main steel company and we managed our plant schedulling and our distribution schedulling with SAP... it worked pretty well. We even had our mills integrated with our sales organization, and production begun as soon as the sales order was signed.
You could also talk with Manugistics and/or Mincom (this last one I'm not totally sure).
To keep realtime tracking of attributes like time and temp in your facilities you could integrate your ERP with other packages... unfortuntely I don't have names in my mind at the moment. If I remember I'll let you know.
Best wishes with your selection,
JC

Visual has a lot of excellent features, the list will be too long to publish. However, we've had multiple face-to-face and WebEx discussions with Visual staff, and they weren't able to successfully demonstrate the three concerns I listed.

Scheduling: Jobs will have to be scheduled, not on FIFO basis, but on the process temperature. This will require going to through all the jobs that can be processed on that furnace, grouping them by process parameters (load multiple jobs with same process parameters together), arrange them in ascending/descending order of process temperature and then schedule them. If you could explain how Visual would accomplish this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Process Control: The furnace is first brought to temperature empty. Once its temperature is stabilized, the parts are loaded into it. From this point on, thermocouples attached on the parts are used to determine when the parts reach the temperature, give extra time for the part thickness to attain temperature and then start heat treat cycle. We currently have the manual system of determining when furnace stabilizes, when parts attain temperature and when the cycle begins. How would Visual accomplis this?

Process Monitor: Since temperature data is continuously acquired, if the part temperature falls outside the required tolerance, it should generate an alarm. This is also monitored manually. How can Visual help with this?

Conditional Situations: Visual has a linear process flow system; at least that's how it was demonstrated to us. How do we achieve the following through Visual- If Process 1 has one outcome, it should start Process 2A, if Process 1 has another outcome, it should start Process 2B.

We are looking for something that'll help us achieve what we want without having to start from scratch. With the specific requirements that we have, we will not be able to find a complete solution amongst pre-packaged software. We might end up doing just what you suggested!

On 7/24/2008 11:50 AM pratzy via erp-select wrote:
> Maybe instead of considering custom, find a system that comes close to
> most of your needs and then "personalize it" (without touching source
> code) to bridge the gap?

Or better yet, work with a commercial open source vendor who brings your enhancements straight into the main, supported product :)

ITtoolbox erp-selectPratzy,
I see a merit in your suggestion. As I said in the past, tuning or configuring an existing module of an ERP sysyem (without any change in the core logic) is always preferable to custom development for specific, rigorous needs. For this reason, I sincerely feel that Infor should be given a chance to tune its scheduling module to satisfy the specific needs of this potential client. In some cases, such tweaking may be good enough. However, the problem may arise when the requirements do not properly fit into the underlying paradigm of the existing module. Sometimes, the apparent tuning may end up as a messy force fit, which can cause pain and frustration to the users later. Mostly, the developers know the real gap between the underlying paradigm and the new requirements. I have seen salespersons putting undue pressure on developers to meet the requirements just by tuning the software. You need an Einstien for such effort sometimes. Similarly, if custom development for rigorous scheduling is not done by a competent person, it will carry high failure risk. Both approaches are experimental where the client should not risk his/her money. In my view, the vendor should be prepared to take the failure risk. Custom development by a specialized third party should be more effective than configuration and tuning by big vendors in some cases. It is worth the effort when the solution has a major impact on shop performance.
Regards,
Prasad
www.optisol.biz

There is an ERP vendor that does handle heat-treat and has a pretty good system. They are Verticent our of Florida. They are a niche player that supports the metals industry.
Regards,
Jim
Morgan Bronze

Makes sense. From your requirements description, it certainly appeared to me that the VBI module would fit.
I assume they are also going to review VISUAL's Scheduling module again as well?
I am looking forward to your feedback after the presentation.

Hi
The OPM - (Oracle Process Manufacturing) in ERP is the answer for you.
I worked for few years in Aerospace Plant and know exactly on what you are
talking.
The OPM is a full suite in ERP that will give you the ability to schedule
the jobs, to monitor the process, to have quality inspection during and at
the end of any step in the production, to define the parameters that evey
job should have during to manufacturing like: Heat, time in the water
quench, Air cooling temperature, by-product items and so on.
If you need more information don't hesitate to write to me directly
email@removed
Good Luck
David

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