in episode 3,lucas will have to put the events that bring obi-wan,bail organa and others to join the rebels.we know that the separatiste movements is a rebel movement agains the republic.i think that dooku will betray sidious and join back the jedi because of many reason.
1:dooku' apprentice,qui-gon have been killed by a sith.
2:dooku have been a jedi about 70years.
3:dooku's plan was to inflitrate the sith to defeat them by interior,at high cost.because of the inaction of the council and the senat to stop corruption in the senat.he was tired of that.

obi-wan will see that dooku as not lie when he told him that a sith was controling the senat.dooku will convince obi-wan to join him in the separatiste movement when all will know palpatine is a sith and the empire is born at the end of the film .

it could be one of the reason anakin battle obi-wan.when he'll see obi-wan allies with dooku,anakin will be furious to see is former master is a traitor of the republic,anakin who like palpatine.

JesusFreak

10-24-2002, 06:29 PM

I think that in Episode III Mace will be dueling Dooku and Dooku will be on the edge of death and he'll be begging for mercy, saying that he has always been on the jedi's side. Mace starts to consider this but Anakin turns up and kills Dooku. I don't think that if this happened that Dooku would have been sincere when he said he was on the jedi's side but I still think when he's on the verge of death he'd do and say anything to save himself. Did that make any sense?

Tycho

10-28-2002, 01:58 AM

I think Krade Wassal is RIGHT:

Dooku did join the Sith to infiltrate them and destroy them from within, perhaps. But I think he also may have become corrupted, or persuaded that the corruption in the Republic is not worth a Jedi's service to.

I also think he is Anakin's father, and Anakin will learn this only after he's killed his own father.

Obi-Wan may not have known this, but the Jedi Council definitely does.

Dooku planned to infiltrate the Sith with Sifo-Dyas and Mace Windu (or one of them is also known as Sifo-Dyas). It was not authorized by the Jedi Council. Building the Clone Army was a test of their loyalty to Sidious.

But Darth Sidious knows of their treachery. He allowed Dooku in because he also knows Dooku was Yoda's padawan and he can throw Yoda emotionally off-balance by corrupting Dooku. Yoda is the most serious threat to him - as I think Yoda already knows exactly who and what Palpatine is.

But Sidious also knows that Dooku had a son - something that Palpatine will reveal to Anakin, to finally snap the kid's anger with Obi-Wan and convince him that he's damned for killing his own father!

Anakin will kill Dooku within the first 30 minutes of the movie.

Darkross

10-28-2002, 11:01 AM

Interesting...very interesting Tycho...personally...I don't think that Dooku will be Anakin's father...but I do like the idea that Dooku will be killed off early on in EIII. I think that Obi-Wan will be the one who destroys him though. But maybe it will be Anakin...to get revenge for his arm???

JesusFreak

10-28-2002, 11:09 AM

Wow Tycho. Those are pretty big predictions. But the Dooku being Anakin's father doesn't sound that weird how you put it. I still don't think Dooku is loyal to the jedi because, come on. He tried to kill Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. I change my Episode 3 predictions all the time but what could happen is...

Palpatine hires Anakin as a bodyguard and tells him that Dooku is out to kill Palpy so Anakin needs to kill him. He tracks him down, cuts his right hand off (like Dooku did to Anakin) then kills him. Anakin has grown very close to Palpatine and trusts him more than anyone else. Palpatine declares that the jedi are traitors so he sends out the Stormtroopers and Anakin to kill them. Anakin confronts Obi-Wan they have their battle Anakin is left for dead. Palpatine gives Anakin his armor and life support. Palpatine has now saved Anakin's life and gains Anakin's absolute trust. He believes that the jedi are traitors of the republic. Padmé gives birth to the twins, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke leave in a ship right after their birth. Yoda is dropped off on Dagobah then Obi-Wan and Luke go to Tatooine. Padmé goes to Alderaan and stays with the Organa's and Leia. Palpatine hires a bounty hunter (Maybe Boba) to assassinate Padmé. Boba does this and Palpatine tells Vader that the jedi killed her. Vader duels and kills Mace. His journey to the dark side is complete.

What do you think?

Rogue II

10-28-2002, 12:23 PM

These posts really changed my views on Episode 3.

Originally posted by JesusFreak
Palpatine hires Anakin as a bodyguard and tells him that Dooku is out to kill Palpy so Anakin needs to kill him. He tracks him down, cuts his right hand off (like Dooku did to Anakin) then kills him. Anakin has grown very close to Palpatine and trusts him more than anyone else. Palpatine declares that the jedi are traitors so he sends out the Stormtroopers and Anakin to kill them. Anakin confronts Obi-Wan they have their battle Anakin is left for dead. Palpatine gives Anakin his armor and life support. Palpatine has now saved Anakin's life and gains Anakin's absolute trust. He believes that the jedi are traitors of the republic. Padmé gives birth to the twins, Yoda escapes to Dagobah. Obi-Wan takes Luke to Tatooine right after birth. Padmé goes to Alderaan and stays with the Organa's and Leia. She is assassinated by someone, maybe Boba Fett. Anakin is now Vader. Vader duels and kills Mace. His journey to the dark side is complete.

What do you think?

I'd buy most of that. I agree at some point, Jedi will be made out to be traitors to the Republic. I also agree at some point Obi-Wan will inflict injuries on Anakin that will force him to wear the armor. A minor point is that Luke probably went to Dagobah at first rather than directly to Tatooine. In ESB, Luke makes a comment on how Dagobah "seemed familiar."

Before I read this thread, I was thinking that Dooku was a traitor to the Jedi. I figured there would be a scene where Anakin was brought before Palpatine and Dooku. Palpatine would say "Take his place by my side." I suppose it makes even more sense if Dooku is Anakin's father.

I wonder if we will even see Padme die in Episode III. It would make sense if we did. I'm assuming Padme and the Jedi are on the run from the "bad guys." Padme could and secretly hand the baby over to Bail Organa on Alderaan. Then, as Padme, Jar Jar, or Jedi are leaving Alderaan, someone (say Boba "No Discintigrations" Fett in Slave I, or Anakin himself...if you want to be real dark) destroyed that ship, not knowing who exactly was on it.

That could solve the problem of Palpatine and Anakin looking for Leia. So even if they knew of the twins, they would only think Luke was alive.

JesusFreak

10-28-2002, 01:25 PM

I completely forgot about Luke's memory of Dagobah. I'm guessing Obi-Wan and Luke drop Yoda off on Dagobah then go to Tatooine.

Tycho

10-28-2002, 01:52 PM

JesusFreak almost has it exactly as I think it will unfold, too.

There's some differences:

Anakin will be close to Palpatine, we've seen that already - and plus he's close to his wife in the Senate.

When he'll leave to rush off and help Obi-Wan versus Dooku, it will appear that the Loyalists have been attacked and only Palpatine escaped alive (Padme and her unborn are thought dead by Anakin at this time).

Meanwhile, he's killed Dooku while saving Obi-Wan - all the while not knowing Dooku is his father.

When Anakin rushes home to Coruscant, distressed at the fate of Padme, he'll learn from Palpatine that Dooku WAS his father and the Jedi never told him.

Obi-Wan will learn that Palpatine is Sidious, and come there to destroy him.

1) Palpatine will use this attack to blame the Jedi - specifically Obi-Wan, for treason and tyring to assasinate him. (Also since the Jedi ordered the Clones, and Yoda assumed command over them, while Dooku led the Separatists, Palpatine will say that the Jedi are all guilty of treason and being the masterminds behind this. He'll say no one is trustworthy and he must assume command as the Emperor and good citizens must lynch the Jedi - leading to a lot of the exterminations right there - remember the Jedi are only working in teams of 2 on many worlds.

2) Anakin will fight Obi-Wan to protect Palpatine. Palpatine will tell him that his dead father believed in Palpatine's goals for rooting out corruption in the Republic, but it was thought to keep Anakin's head clear until his training was complete. Obi-Wan betrayed the Republic by coming there to kill Palpatine, and he betrayed Anakin by not letting him rescue his mother, keeping him from saving Padme and his unborn children, and allowing him to murder his own father - who was actually loyal to the Republic. There's even truth to that if Dooku was trying to infiltrate the Sith for Jedi reasons.

Since Qui-Gon was Dooku's padawan, Shmi Skywalker had heard stories about the good Qui-Gon Jinn, and knew she could trust him to take Anakin so long ago. She lied about there being no father - or told the story from "a certain point of view" because Dooku wasn't there to raise their son - or he didn't know she was pregnant until Anakin's midi-chlorian tests were revealed to the Jedi - 10 years ago (from E2) - and exactly when Dooku decided to leave the Jedi Order as his son was arriving - to avoid contaminating contact, and to try and root out the Sith before his son would have to face them - because they thought he was the Chosen One - though that was all a lie. Qui-Gon believed in this prophesy because Dooku raised him with it. This was just in case something happened to Dooku, his former padawan would look out for his son if it so happened to be that Anakin was discovered. That is also why Dooku hired Aurra Sing - an ex-Jedi that he would have known - to protect Anakin like only someone trained as a Jedi could. I think Aurra Sing will appear in E3 and have something to do with Anakin learning all the damning truth about his history.

This also explains Vader's relentless desire to be a father to Luke, and reveal to him his parentage - Vader is actually trying to be a better parent than his father was, if you can laugh through the irony in that.

Meanwhile, Palpatine will fess up to Obi-Wan's accusations and say "Now kill your Master and take your father's place at my side!" It will seem like a good offer since Palpatine is telling him the truth and Obi-Wan is StarWars' "habitual liar." Only Anakin will lose this fight and receive the wounds that require him to wear the Vader life-support suit.

He can't fall INTO lava or a smelting pit, but being near enough the heat to have it burn out his lungs will be enough to accomplish the medical condition Vader suffers from. It will look to Obi-Wan - who will try and save his padawan-gone-wrong - that Anakin has died. He will learn the truth later (in this movie) - but be one of the few who know. Padme may be told, but warned not to contact him - that he's gone over to the Dark Side, and she must keep the secret that her children have survived so she can never see her husband again. Then again - they may not tell her - because feasibly, Pamde could bring Vader back to the lightside. Palpatine must have found out she lived, and had her assasinated later - being unable to track down the 'child' - as no one but Yoda really knows there are twins. Or Palpatine will dismiss it - figuring even if a "Luke Skywalker" did get trained - if there were any Jedi left alive to do it, he'd surface in the war and his father would convert him or kill him, just as Vader promised. In ROTJ, Palpatine was willing to let the Rebel Alliance come to him, versus hunting them down. He might be doing the same to see if a young Skywalker shows up and Vader only needs-to-know if Luke does in fact show up.

I'll stop here because there's a lot to digest in my theories.

Jedi Clint

10-28-2002, 02:00 PM

Barring a flash-forward that leaps at least 3 or 4 years into the future after Anakin and Obi Wan duel, there is no way to show Padme die on screen in E3 given that Leia remembers her.

I'm betting that Dooku will die even sooner than the first 30 minutes of the movie at the hands of Anakin.

When we first see Luke at the beginning of ROTJ, he has gone through noticeable changes since we left him in TESB. He has learned how to control himself, and his power has subsequently increased dramatically as well. I think the exact same will be true of the Anakin we see at the end of AOTC, and the one we will see at the beginning of E3 leading troopers into Dooku's stronghold intent on his destruction. The difference between father and son is the nature of their intentions toward the protagonist. Luke want's to free his friends from the Jabba's palace. He mentions there is no need for violence. Anakin wants to rid the galaxy of Dooku, and vengence is not entirely absent from that equation.

Darth Sidious

10-28-2002, 02:29 PM

Those are all good theories, I have nothing to add to them. Here is why I posted this- Dooku begging for mercy??? Yeah right. :rolleyes:

Rogue II

10-28-2002, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Barring a flash-forward that leaps at least 3 or 4 years into the future after Anakin and Obi Wan duel, there is no way to show Padme die on screen in E3 given that Leia remembers her.

I'm betting that Dooku will die even sooner than the first 30 minutes of the movie at the hands of Anakin.

Well, Luke and Leia are both force sensative, maybe they can do more at a young age. I wonder how much time will be covered in Episode 3. If the twins are a year old by the end of the flick, they may be able to remember a little.

There's an interesting bet. Will Dooku last more than 30 minutes into Episode 3? I'm sure it will be close.

mini-rock

10-28-2002, 03:27 PM

Yeah, I say Dooku wil die about half way through the film, give or take 5 minutes. Also, I bet the twins are born before EP3.

Tycho

10-28-2002, 04:34 PM

George and Natalie have both confirmed that she will be pregnant during almost all of the film.

3-4 years between Episode 2 and Episode 3 has also been declared.

I didn't mean to suggest Padme is killed during the movie. She will likely die 2-3 years after the movie.

No Star Wars movie takes place over a period longer than several consecutive days - ESB was at most "A week in the life of..."

Episode 3 will not break the pattern. Padme will be 9 months pregnant at the start of the film and 9 months and 1-6 days pregnant through most of the film, finally being 1-2 days after child-birth at the end of the film.

Luke and Leia will not be shown "old enough to be out of diapers" in Episode 3.

Han will still likely be there as a 10-11 year old Clone from a new template.

Lucas has authorized Dark Horse Comics to tell the tale of the Destruction of Kamino in the On-Going Series (Republic Series) issue 50 - a special super issue. All the Jango Fett Clones and genetic material to make them from samples left over from the original donor (as well as possibly the Kaminoan homeworld) will be destroyed by the droid armies of the Confederacy of Independent Systems (Separatists).

This takes place maybe only a year or less after AOTC.

New Clone Troopers will not have a British accent - stormtroopers in the Sequels don't - and will likely be clones of a host who could be played by Harrison Ford.

Whether the host is a real "Solo" from the house of Corellia, is unknown, but possible.

Denn Solo (Han's known grandfather) took his son and fled an attack meant to kill him and his family, by perhaps another Solo - Solo The Black - a pirate and Corellian tyrant in the old feudal sense. His wife, Mrs. Gamma-Solo, took their son's fraternal twin - a daughter, Tion Solo, back to Corellia. She married and was known as Tion Sal-Solo. Her twin brother and father were never seen or heard from again. It is possible that he sold his survival skills to new Cloners, and became the template for the new Clones of Episode 3.

I'm sure that the war will press so many into service, that the young 14 year-old Boba Fett will be relied on to train or command a squadron of child-clones left to stand guard over the Separatists' hostages: JarJar Binks, Bail Organa, and Padme Amidala who's giving birth to twin babies while still a prisoner (her husband believing her dead).

It is being established that Boba Fett has some kind of love-thing for Padme. It was in the novel and his character description.

I'm sure the order will come down to kill her - and her children if it is known that she has delivered them.

Boba may not want to kill her, but neither does another young Clone who does not know Fett's intentions.

I'm sure a young Clone who will say "Well maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?" will rescue Padme and free her, Organa, and JarJar, however he might tell Fett that he followed their orders and killed the hostages like a good Clone trained to obey orders would. Fett (believing him) might hate him for that, thinking him an amoral, non-compassionate twerp. Or he might try and fight Fett, calling him the disobedient one, while actually covering for the Loyalists' escape. Whatever, the young Clone will adopt the name Han Solo one day, but even before then, he'll earn the hatred of one Boba Fett! This will establish and explain that classic rivalry.

It also throws a light on the irony that Ben Obi-Wan laughs at when Han says "No mystical energy field controls my destiny" in spite of the fact that Ben knows that Han exists because the Sith (fighting a Force-war) engineered all the Clones. Han constantly lives in denial -as illustrated by his pretending to not want to join up with the Rebel Alliance.

Meanwhile, the rest of Han's evolution is matched per his Clone Survival and Tactical Training: he can survive on Hoth with only a TaunTaun carcass. He has a custom ship made out of out-dated technology which disguises state-of-the-art weapons, hyperdrive, and communications-jamming equipment. He makes a living outside the law. He knows how to use diversionary tactics to hide his ship while clamping down on a perch the enemy least expects to find him on, etc. All of these things seem to mirror stuff Boba Fett does or has learned (from his experience chasing Obi-Wan, etc.)

I suppose Han is the only other last great surprise as pertaining to main characters, the other being Anakin's parentage.

Boba Fett will kill Mace - the relationship between them has been established in blood now.

Tarkin, Mon Mothma, Nute Gunray, etc. are all incidental characters. They may or may not make appearances.

I think the story works better with Anakin having quit the Jedi Order over his marriage, and serving as an advisor to Palpatine while Obi-Wan trains a new apprentice who's jealous of Anakin's past relationship to their common Master, and who also eagerly seeks to establish a relationship with Palaptine.

Thus when that padawan goes missing (near the beginning of the film), there is potential for doubt as to Darth Vader's identity until you watch the 10th hour of the final "12 Hour Epic" when Vader tells Luke he is his father.

"Darth Vader, a young Jedi who was A PUPIL of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi. He betrayed and murdered your father."

But Obi-Wan had no pupil before Anakin - and certainly not AFTER the time when Anakin was supposed to have been killed - could this other pupil of Obi-Wan's then kill Anakin (who would already be dead... - you following this?) So if Anakin leaves the Jedi, Obi-Wan could get a new apprentice who could feasibly have killed the wounded Anakin after Obi-Wan nearly finishes him off during their fight before Palpatine.

I think the mystery of ESB must be preserved to form a one 12 hour play, and therefore, Darth Vader's identity must not be exposed in Episode 3 (if you've NEVER seen a SW movie before).

If some young "new Star-let" like a male, teenager 2-4 years younger than Hayden Christensen gets cast as "an important Jedi Padawan," then I'll be ready to put my money on this theory.

The kid will have very little screen time, though. Getting killed before even Dooku does. He's not important - just a possible OTHER identity for Darth Vader if you only know as much as Luke does in ANH when you are first watching the series.

George Lucas is not making these movies for fans. They already have fans. He's making these movies as parts to a whole-preconceptulized drama. He doesn't care if you do or don't want to see Hayden's scarred face shown donning the black suit. I'm pretty sure you'll never see that. This does not mean that Hayden won't play Darth Vader - it just means that it only matters to Hayden. James Earl Jones will be doing the voice-acting anyway.

But Hayden's cool, so I hope he gets to play it (face never showing).

The 'Xir

10-30-2002, 01:03 AM

Wow, Alot of really cool Ideas going back and forth! But, Hehehe...now it's my turn to throw a stone into the reflection pool!...(hhmm, just how much do I want to get into) here goes:

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...
STAR WARS Episode III: Veil of Betrayal

There is a dark period of dissention throughout the Republic. The escalation of the 'Clone Wars' has caused an increasing lack of faith in the Jedi's ability to keep the peace. Inturn, hundreds of star systems continue to join Count Dooku and the Seperatists Alliance.
Representative Bail Organna of Alderaan, with the help of Senator Amidala and Master Yoda, has made a vain effort to rally what little support is left for the Republic within the Senate. While Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Knight and friend of General Obi-Wan Kenobi, helps lead a large batallion of Clone troopers into battle on the lush green planet of Kashyyyk. Yet, little do our heros know, that the Sith led by Darth Sidious, have begun a campaign so sinister, it will turn the tide of battle forever.
While back on Coruscant, Chancellor Palpatine's extreme method's to hold the Republic together are unsetteling to the Jedi Order. So in an attempt to quell the situation, Jedi Master Mace Windu knowing Dooku's involvement with the Sith; organizes the Jedi, bent on hunting down the traitor. However in his hunt, he reveals a secret so shrouded in evil, that it will spell certain death to the Republic and his loyal Jedi followers...

Without getting into my other Ideas about the flesh of the movie and making this post a gazillion miles long. I agree with many of you, that Dooku is still Loyal to the Jedi and was correct in that the Senate is under the controll of a dark Lord of the Sith. However, I think it would be FREAKING AWESOME that the real shocker would be that we learn Dooku is not referring to Darth Sidious/Palpatine, but the forementioned Lord of the Sith turns out to be none other than MACE WINDU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I can say is, "Think of The Possibilities!"
God Darn! I swear I should write these movies!

Chewtobacco

10-30-2002, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by krade wassal
in episode 3,lucas will have to put the events that bring obi-wan,bail organa and others to join the rebels.we know that the separatiste movements is a rebel movement agains the republic.i think that dooku will betray sidious and join back the jedi because of many reason.
1:dooku' apprentice,qui-gon have been killed by a sith.
2:dooku have been a jedi about 70years.
3:dooku's plan was to inflitrate the sith to defeat them by interior,at high cost.because of the inaction of the council and the senat to stop corruption in the senat.he was tired of that.

I HIGHLY doubt this. Unless the Jedi council is VERY forgiving. Almost 200 Jedi were killed, and it was because of Dooku. Dooku could have come to the Jedi council to share the threat of the Sith, but chose not to. Dooku may betray Sideous, but he'll never be allowed back to the Jedi order.

Remember what Yoda said about Dooku at the end of the movie? No way would he be welcomed back.

The 'Xir

10-31-2002, 12:50 AM

Well Chewy, all I can say is that remember the Jedi Council doesn't have to take him back! Remember, Qui-Gon was always at odds with the Council, and it is very possible that Dooku feels justified in his actions. Because if he has to convince Palps/Sidious of his loyalty, what better way then to waste 200 jedi or so! and remember he took no personal action in the fight(fought or killed any Jedi himself), until he mixed it up with Ben and Anakin! Yet, still if he is such a mastered swordsman his blows could have hit their mark more effectively! However, it could be viewed that he let up, only wounding Ben and Anakin because he does not want to be responsible for directly killing Jedi! The Jedi that were lost can be morally dismissed as casualties of war! It might seem rash or harsh, but remember politicians and people in power have to make decisions and sacrafices like this everyday, and that's right here on Earth!

The 'Xir

10-31-2002, 01:12 AM

Oh and I ment to add that remember both Dooku and Qui-Gon felt that the Jedi Council ways weren't neccessarily the best or atleast the most effective, atleast not all of them! So, why would Dooku go back to the council to share his plan knowing they would never agree to it, especially if he felt it was good or strong enough to rid the Sith from the universe for ever! I hate to say it but this very well maybe the case! Maybe his Plea to Obi-wan was actually sincere! Remember Lucas loves to repeat themes, and that rip off of ESB might just turn out to be honorable! In Empire it was a temptation for Evil, but Dooku's plea just may have well been a plea of Desperation...desperate for Hope!
"Join me Obi-wan, and together we can Destory the sith!"

I tell you what if this is the case and Windu turns out to be the bad guy, as I suggested up above, that Anakin kills and then replaces, it sure will make EpIII one of the more compelling stories of the Saga! Possibly the greatest!

Oh please! Oh please George, make me a co-writer I swear I'll make it the best Star Wars ever! ;) (Then he woke up) :.)

Tycho

10-31-2002, 01:16 AM

Dooku was going to kill Obi-Wan - and Anakin intervened, remember?

I think this is because Obi-Wan knew too much, or was told too much in that conversation they had when Obi-Wan was being held prisoner.

We have to look deeper into that scene for more meaning - and what it means that Dooku would kill Obi-Wan over that.

When Anakin intervened and Dooku defeated him TOO - he could have walked over and killed both of them, but he then he decides to turn OFF his lightsaber and make as if to board his ship and leave. Why the change of heart? Didn't want to hurt his son further by killing his Master? I don't know myself.

Then Yoda showed up and you know the rest. In the escape though - Dooku once again was willing to gamble that Yoda would save the other two - or else they'd be crushed to death.

Though then Dooku would have been killed by Yoda if Yoda had let Obi-Wan and Anakin die in order to stay in the fight.

But there are some things going on there.

That and Mace didn't have to kill Jango. He could have defeated him and not killed him. The Force could have taken his blaster just as Vader took Han's. It would be a process, but eventually Mace could expire all the other weapons Jango carries: tangle cable, wrist darts, flame thrower, knifes, micro-blaster, saberdarts, whatever else he's carrying. Other Jedi could help if need be. But no...Mace shut him up - the permanent way.

That was curious, too.

Chewtobacco

10-31-2002, 10:05 AM

Please tell me that you are joking...

I know you're entitled to your opinion but the supporting facts make no sense!

Xir - you said Dooku never fought or killed any Jedi himself. Using that logic, Darth Sideous hasn't fought or killed anyone himself. Why not make him a jedi too? He has the training. The people that order the killings are just as responsible.

And Qui-Gon was at odds with the council. That made him not eligible to be ON the council. He was still recognized and respected as a Jedi and defender of good. They never questioned his integrity like they have with Dooku.

Regardless of whether Dooku "wants to be a Jedi" again or not, he can't. He's labeled as an enemy now. Even if Dooku started acting good and called himself a Jedi, it doesn't matter. He's crossed over the line.

The politicians and people in power here on earth that make decisions on people's lives are judged. Just ask Milosovic who is standing trial for war crimes. He can't go back to his native country and say "I want to be leader again - and now I'm a good guy. I needed to order the slaughter of Muslims and you should dismiss them as casualties of war".

Now I could see the twist that would portray Windu as a conspirator or a bad guy. That would be believeable and cool.

JesusFreak

10-31-2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Tycho
Dooku was going to kill Obi-Wan - and Anakin intervened, remember?

I think this is because Obi-Wan knew too much, or was told too much in that conversation they had when Obi-Wan was being held prisoner.

We have to look deeper into that scene for more meaning - and what it means that Dooku would kill Obi-Wan over that.

When Anakin intervened and Dooku defeated him TOO - he could have walked over and killed both of them, but he then he decides to turn OFF his lightsaber and make as if to board his ship and leave. Why the change of heart? Didn't want to hurt his son further by killing his Master? I don't know myself.

Now that I think about it, when Dooku cut Anakin's arm off he had this sad look on his face as if Anakin were his son, then he didn't kill Anakin whereas he was trying to kill Obi-Wan. I never thought of that before. I'm just wondering why Palpatine never mentions Dooku/Anakin's father in the OT. Surely he and Vader would have talked about him?

Tycho

10-31-2002, 11:27 AM

They didn't need to talk about Anakin's father, most likely.

Also, if George was intending to tell the WHOLE story from the start, and he had the whole lie about the immaculate conception thing worked out, then he didn't want to spoil his "Luke I am your father" revelation for the prequel trilogy so early on.

We still could be mistaken, and Anakin could be immaculately conceived, but I don't want to believe that. I also think that if the story doesn't evolve this way, with Dooku being the father - then it takes away a whole 'nother layer of depth and intrigue into the story and misses the chance for another whammy of a big surprise.

Just because we're speculating this doesn't mean it won't be a surprise when either a) spoilers confirm it, or b) we see it on the big screen. It'll be a smaller surprise because we have some dramatic storytelling insight, but it'll still be great, huh? :)

Rogue II

10-31-2002, 11:38 AM

Do you think there is a chance that Dooku could do the "I am your father, lets overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy as father and son" bit to Anakin? It would be similar to Vader's speach to Luke in ESB. Dooku has already seperated Anakin's hand from the rest of him. Dooku would get killed and Anakin would take his father's place at Palpatine's side.

Does anyone know what the spoilers are supposed to be in the new Star Wars Insider McCalum interview?

JesusFreak

10-31-2002, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Rogue II
Do you think there is a chance that Dooku could do the "I am your father, lets overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy as father and son" bit to Anakin? It would be similar to Vader's speach to Luke in ESB. Dooku has already seperated Anakin's hand from the rest of him. Dooku would get killed and Anakin would take his father's place at Palpatine's side.

Wow, I sure hope not. Having dialogue that similar is just weird. I guess most people would like it, but I'd rather have Anakin and the audience find out some other way.

Tycho

10-31-2002, 11:55 PM

There were no spoilers in the Rick McCallum interview that I could tell.

The 'Xir

11-01-2002, 11:23 AM

Chewy: Hey! Dooku could be just what he appears to be a Bad Jedi truned Dark Lord of the Sith! But like I said, If your trying to infiltrate the most corrupt and evil man's infrastructure in the Universe, and he expects you to kill, you'd better be pretty darn convincing!
Oh and if you don't think that stuff like that happens everyDAY around the world, you are one naive nerf-herder!
Their called spies, double-agents, terrorist, business men, Presidents, etc. Just ask the People of Japan about casualties of War, I don't think FDR was ever put on trial for Mass Murder! Even better ask JFK(if you could), I tell ya, anyone who still believes that Oswald thing, probably believes that the world is still flat, or that we're the only things that could have possibly been created on any level of life, on this small little planet in our entire great big Universe!
Do you realize that it was America, who gave most all of those bio-logical weapons to Suddam Hussein(sp?)! Christ I think we actually sold him the petry dishes!!! I think it was when Russia was at war with Irag or Afghanistan! Then we had to pretend to be the good guys after he used them on the Kurds, so we went in and saved them, then he used it on his own people and know we're trying to save the Iraqies, who believe it or not probably could give 2 shoots about Us! We practically have raised Suddam since he was a young pup dictator! Why? MONEY! Oil! Protecting our Interests(butts), but now that the dog has bitten the hand that feeds him(over and over and OVER again, we're finally now trying to clean up OUR mess!!!!!

oh, and yes Windu going bad would absolutely freaking ROCK!!!! ;-)

Rogue II

11-01-2002, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by The 'Xir
Oh and if you don't think that stuff like that happens everyDAY around the world, you are one naive nerf-herder!
Their called spies, double-agents, terrorist, business men, Presidents, etc. Just ask the People of Japan about casualties of War, I don't think FDR was ever put on trial for Mass Murder!
Do you realize that it was America, who gave most all of those bio-logical weapons to Suddam Hussein(sp?)! Christ I think we actually sold him the petry dishes!!! I think it was when Russia was at war with Irag or Afghanistan! We practically have raised Suddam since he was a young pup dictator! Why? MONEY! Oil! Protecting our Interests(butts), but now that the dog has bitten the hand that feeds him(over and over and OVER again, we're finally now trying to clean up OUR mess!!!!!

oh, and yes Windu going bad would absolutely freaking ROCK!!!! ;-)

-Harry S. Truman was in office when the bomb was dropped in Japan.

-I could be wrong, but I don't believe the US had anything to do with Hussein's rise to power in Iraq. All of Iraq's weapons are Soviet-made. Iraq hasn't fought Afganastan. They were at war with Iran in the 70s-80s.

-The US used to have the its puppet in Iran, but that all changed in the late 70s. Also, the US government did train Osama bin Laden when the USSR invaded Afganastan.

I do understand and agree with your point. Destroying the Sith from the inside is a good strategy. However, I don't think Mace Windu will turn Sith. That would be a little much. I believe the theories that Boba Fett will do him in, somehow. Either that he will sacrifice himself so others may live.

JesusFreak

11-01-2002, 04:33 PM

I think Mace may be shown throughout most of the movie as a sith, he won't hurt anyone, but he'll supposedly be a sith. Then near the end it will be revealed that he had been working undercover for the jedi all this time, that would be cool. And it wouldn't break the two sith rule because Mace would never be a real sith.

tagmac

11-01-2002, 09:18 PM

Personally, I hope Han Solo doesn't turn out to be a clone. Considering clones are supposed to be unable to truly think for themselves, and are bred to obey orders instinctively, it would be a total contradiction to who Han's character actually is. Solo is too brash, independent, and loose-cannon to be a clone.

Tycho

11-02-2002, 03:47 AM

Ah, but is it always genetics, or does environment have something to do with it?

If Kamino gets wiped out between now and Episode 3 (See Dark Horse "Attack on Kamino" comic due out soon - Republic # 50) - and it IS CANNON because it was authorized to explain why the Clones will be different, not from Jango Fett in E3) then perhaps someone else, not as good is making the new Clones (which, like Stormtroopers, don't have British accents).

So now you have a new Clone line (based on someone that looks like Harrison Ford) and:

1) An immoral order to kill the Senator who has just had a baby gets issued. An 11 year old Clone whos training is FAR from complete, refuses to kill the innocent hostages, instead freeing them. He says "Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?" and ironically even saves Leia of all things.

2) He has to flee his unit and run away for his crime. He eventually is found by Garris Shrike, who takes him in on his pirate/slave ship where Han befriends Dewlanna, his adopted Wookiee mother. - Then according to all the books, he spends his entire youth trying to escape and return to an "instinctive" call to duty, and joins the Empire to become an officer and a pilot. If they know WHAT he is, of course they let him join. Han's extra training beyond what he'd have gotten as a Stormtrooper, makes him an invaluable asset to the Empire. He knows how smugglers operate, etc. No wonder he graduates at the top of his class in the Academy. Then when he's 23, he captures a Wookiee vigilante trying to free other Wookiee slaves from Trandoshan trade partners of the Empire. This Wookiee will stand to price and be an example. Abused in slavery, it drags on Han's conscience for so long, his morals once again force him to act: only months later, he frees Chewbacca.

George Lucas allowed author A.C. Crispin to tell these stories because he had a plan in mind. They fit logically with what could be revealed about Han's past in Episode 3. Obviously, he will NOT be with Chewbacca, though Chewie could be in the movie in some different scene, too.

If you don't know what the heck I'm talking about, read:

The Paradise Snare
The Hutt Gambit
Rebel Dawn

in that order. They are still the best Star Wars books I've ever read.

The EU would allow all kinds of different, conflicting stories, with Chewie both alive and dead, 25 years after ROTJ, etc. if there wasn't ONE continuity and a master plan for the whole story with everybodies' backgrounds worked in.

YES IT'S TRUE GEORGE CAN CHANGE WHAT'S IN THE BOOKS WITH WHAT HE DECIDES TO DO IN THE MOVIES.

But he wouldn't have planned there to be a specific order and evolution of specific subjects that he'd let other authors write about, if he ORIGINALLY thought he was going to throw it all out.

Han can be a Republic clone and it doesn't conflict with anything to do with his EU character evolution, or his history as an Imperial Officer.

Rogue II

11-02-2002, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by Tycho
If you don't know what the heck I'm talking about, read:

The Paradise Snare
The Hutt Gambit
Rebel Dawn

in that order. They are still the best Star Wars books I've ever read.

Yes, they are my favorite books as well.

I refuse to beleive the following:
1. Mace Windu is a Sith or will turn to be Sith
2. Han Solo is a clone
3. Any character other than Mon Mothma, Tarkin, or Vader should make an appearance in Episode 3.

stillakid

11-06-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by JesusFreak
Wow Tycho. Those are pretty big predictions. But the Dooku being Anakin's father doesn't sound that weird how you put it. I still don't think Dooku is loyal to the jedi because, come on. He tried to kill Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. I change my Episode 3 predictions all the time but what could happen is...

Palpatine hires Anakin as a bodyguard and tells him that Dooku is out to kill Palpy so Anakin needs to kill him. He tracks him down, cuts his right hand off (like Dooku did to Anakin) then kills him. Anakin has grown very close to Palpatine and trusts him more than anyone else. Palpatine declares that the jedi are traitors so he sends out the Stormtroopers and Anakin to kill them. Anakin confronts Obi-Wan they have their battle Anakin is left for dead. Palpatine gives Anakin his armor and life support. Palpatine has now saved Anakin's life and gains Anakin's absolute trust. He believes that the jedi are traitors of the republic. Padmé gives birth to the twins, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke leave in a ship right after their birth. Yoda is dropped off on Dagobah then Obi-Wan and Luke go to Tatooine. Padmé goes to Alderaan and stays with the Organa's and Leia. Palpatine hires a bounty hunter (Maybe Boba) to assassinate Padmé. Boba does this and Palpatine tells Vader that the jedi killed her. Vader duels and kills Mace. His journey to the dark side is complete.

What do you think?

Wow, a lot of good ideas here. But for the most part, I have to go with Door #2 and most of the above.

After further review of the Dooku/Obi Wan discussion on Geonosis, I believe that Dooku is expertly mixing lies with just enough truth to make it seem plausible. As a result, here's what I think...

Dooku is indeed referring to Palpatine as being the Sith. Lucas as a writer doesn't have the depth of ability to conceive of anything more complicated than that. But what this does is setup a situation like JF mentions. Obi Wan will discover that Palpy is the one. He will tell Yoda which will confirm Yoda's own suspicions about Palpatine.

Meanwhile, as JF says, Palpy will ask Anakin for protection as he will convince the young Jedi that Dooku is a Sith Lord out to get him. Part of this plot thread could be that Dooku himself believes that he is strong enough to take Sidious's place. Remember, that there can always only be two Sith because their inherent nature is to be greedy for power. That is how they destroyed themselves in the first place. So Dooku might very well be after Palpatine's head which leads Palpatine to recruit Anakin to deal with it. Bam, just like that, Anakin unknowingly is recruited to the dark side and the Sith count is maintained at 2 as is required.

As to the question of Anakin's father? No, I don't believe that it is anything more than Immaculate Conception by Midichlorians. Again, Lucas was trying to get cute with the religious parallels and it came back and bit him when everyone moaned about it. That's why neither are mentioned in Episode II. Anakin has no real father to speak of and it will not ever be an issue as far as any of the plot threads go.

Mace as traitor? Interesting idea, one that I'll have to put some more thought into. If you look back at his sparse dialogue in TPM and some of his actions in AOTC, you could potentially wiggle some extra meaning into it. I'm afraid that this is a wait and see issue.

The real question is what leads Anakin to battle Obi Wan. That should be the actual climax of Episode III. If this is a two-hour movie, then it should be happening at about 1 hour and 40 minutes in or so. Some ideas have popped up in other threads about this. Perhaps as Anakin's attention is centered on Dooku, Palpy convinces the boy that Obi Wan and Padme have grown closer. This could be all because of a woman! If that sounds crazy, think about this for a second: most screenplays are written from the point-of-view of the writer. That sounds ridiculously obvious, but think of it this way...Lucas went through a divorce...a bad one...bad enough that he hasn't remarried. He now hangs out with Playboy Playmates. Not bad work if you can get it. Anyway, that real-life event could be playing itself out onscreen. He may not think much of women and their fidelity, so painting Padme as an adulterer (real or not) would be reason enough for any man, including Anakin, to want revenge on his best friend and mentor. What truer reason can there be?

But, that reason makes too much sense, at least in terms of the silliness we saw in AOTC. For no reason, Anakin continually lashed out at Obi Wan for "holding him back" or something. Goofy. Whatever, but I hope to see some actual reason for him to be angry, not that concocted b.s.

So, Palpatine recruits Anakin to kill Dooku. Before he goes, Anakin and Padme have a love-making session. While he's away killing Dooku, Palpatine gets Obi Wan and Padme together somehow under some pretext that Anakin is out of control. Given Anakin's history of sudden outbursts and mass killing, it makes sense. Anakin returns, now a member of the Sith (although he doesn't really know it yet), and finds Obi and Padme together...and against him for reasons he can't fathom. This leads to the fight.

On the political front, Palpatine's plan is working well. He began construction of the Clone Army about the same time that he took control of the Senate. Realizing that the only way to control the galaxy would be to get rid of all the powerful groups that existed, he began a plan to pit each of them against one another. It would be the "Republic" vs. the Trade Federation, the Banking, etc... As we witnessed in AOTC, the Clone Army was utilized by the Jedi to take on the "rebellion" to the Republic as Palpatine just stood back and watched. Now, as the Clones wipe out the vestiges of economic power, Palpatine can take full control of those things.

The only thing left is to rid the galaxy of the religious element...the Jedi. He had justification to take on the economic block as they appeared to have been planning a coup. The trouble is that the Jedi are clearly on the side of the Republic. The only thing that could possibly give Palpatine proper justification for taking on the Jedi in the name of the Republic would be to show that they are trying to unseat him. Enter Yoda and his suspicions about Palpy being Sith. All it would take would for any Jedi to stand up in the Senate and suggest such a thing and Palpatine would have all that he needs to launch a witch-hunt. Afterall, he's in the midst of putting down one rebellion when the Jedi stand up and try to remove him from power. He now has justification to turn the Clone Army on the Jedi and take them down.

Now, there's no one left in his way. He's convinced Anakin that the Jedi are out to get him and that Obi Wan is sleeping with Padme. Anakin sets out to kill Obi Wan. They fight, Anakin lies there beaten. As the scene ends, it appears to the audience that Anakin is dead. Obi Wan takes Anakin's lightsaber and leaves. He heads to Naboo and meets with Yoda, who is on the run. They say good bye and good luck. Yoda tells Obi where to find him, though it isn't important for the audience to hear the exact location. Obi Wan then heads for the Palace where Padme has just given birth. On his way in, he passes by a large entourage headed by Senator Bail Organa. They have a small bundle under heavy guard. Bail's face tells of his anguish as he exits quickly. Obi continues into the Palace where he finds a weakened Padme and a baby boy. He tells her of Anakin, how the man he loved is now dead and the state of the Republic. He takes the baby to his ship and disappears into the twilight sky.

The End!

No going to Tatooine. No going to Dagobah. No Alderaan. And NO Vader! None of that nonsense. We've just learned everything we need to know to get us into the Original Trilogy.

That's how I'd write it anyhow. :)

tagmac

11-06-2002, 06:10 PM

I think Dooku will ultimately be a Sith.....he sounded to fake when he was "apologizing" to Obi-Wan, and way to serious when talking to Sidious one-on-one. I can't shake the feeling that Mace Windu is gonna turn out to be a traitor in the end, though.

The Overlord Returns

11-06-2002, 07:04 PM

Hmmm.......

1. Like it or not, Anakins origin was established in ep1. IT WILL NOT BE CHANGED. Dooku is not his father. No one is. His birth was A MIRACLE, for better or worse.

2. There is not one shred of evidence in the films to state that Mace Windu will betray the jedi/ is evil. I've already stated my theory as to why the fans seem to want this. I feel it is based solely on the fact that It's Sam Jackson playing him, and people can't get passed his "bad mo fo" image.

3. Dooku as a infiltrator who gets corrupted is the best idea/ theory I have seen in this thread. I know Lucas has picked things from the EU, and I seem to remember a mention in some piece of eu writing about jedis attempting to take down the sith from the inside. Ofcourse it fails.....but...this attempt...and a Jedi being the leader of the "evil" separatist movement against the republic, I feel, ties into the jedi purge. I'll explain that in a moment.

4. Han SHOULD NOT appear in the PT. There is no reason for it other than base fanboy pandering. I personally feel, between the origins of Boba Fett, and the shoddy treatment of JJB in ep 2....we've had enough of that. Han enters the sw saga at the perfect time. Exactly when he is needed.

Finally, I personally feel the jedi fall will happen after the clone wars have been one by the republic. Palpatine will reveal to the republic that it was a Jedi who fueled the fires of the sep. movement...an d that they are far too dangerous an institution to have around. This will lead to anti jedi sentiment.........

I'm not sure how it will play out.....but I do feel this is a possibility....

stillakid

11-06-2002, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Hmmm.......

1. Like it or not, Anakins origin was established in ep1. IT WILL NOT BE CHANGED. Dooku is not his father. No one is. His birth was A MIRACLE, for better or worse.

2. There is not one shred of evidence in the films to state that Mace Windu will betray the jedi/ is evil. I've already stated my theory as to why the fans seem to want this. I feel it is based solely on the fact that It's Sam Jackson playing him, and people can't get passed his "bad mo fo" image.

3. Dooku as a infiltrator who gets corrupted is the best idea/ theory I have seen in this thread. I know Lucas has picked things from the EU, and I seem to remember a mention in some piece of eu writing about jedis attempting to take down the sith from the inside. Ofcourse it fails.....but...this attempt...and a Jedi being the leader of the "evil" separatist movement against the republic, I feel, ties into the jedi purge. I'll explain that in a moment.

4. Han SHOULD NOT appear in the PT. There is no reason for it other than base fanboy pandering. I personally feel, between the origins of Boba Fett, and the shoddy treatment of JJB in ep 2....we've had enough of that. Han enters the sw saga at the perfect time. Exactly when he is needed.

Finally, I personally feel the jedi fall will happen after the clone wars have been one by the republic. Palpatine will reveal to the republic that it was a Jedi who fueled the fires of the sep. movement...an d that they are far too dangerous an institution to have around. This will lead to anti jedi sentiment.........

I'm not sure how it will play out.....but I do feel this is a possibility....

I'll buy every bit of that :), except that I don't see why the Clone Wars have to be over and done with when Palpatine points the finger at the Jedi.

The scapegoat Jedi you speak of would have to be Dooku as the leaders of those "rebel" factions would easily point him out of a crowd as being the leader. It could happen that way. That scenario would have to play out around the end of the first act. Then Dooku would be on the run and gunning for Palpatine. This would easily motivate Palpatine to recruit Anakin to hunt him down.

From the OT, I always had the sense that the Clone Wars were several years long. They, and the Jedi purge, could last well into the time period between Episodes III and IV.

Although, now that I think about it, it would be a dramatic ending to Episode III to have Palpatine standing victorious as his troops returned home from removing the "rebellion" and the last remnants of the Jedi on the run. Good closure to lead us into the dark "mop up" years between III and IV. That way, we enter IV years later, well after the "Rebel Alliance" has been loosely formed and the Skywalker children are coming into their own.

This works on a couple different levels, including a very tangible one, in that ANH was shot with an older filmstock and has an inherently "dirtier" look to it. Coming out of the squeaky clean looking Prequels into the gritty Episode IV would work very well...unless of course, Lucas blows the secret of Vader's identity, then it won't mean squat and the only way to watch these will be out of Episode order.

As for the rest, I agree...the Prequels thus far have been too chock full of fan pandering and, in my opinion, nearly ruined by it. It'll be bad enough having a Vader appearance in Episode III, but any sign of Tatooine or Dagobah at the end of the film or, god help us, lil' Han or lil' Chewy would be a cinematic blunder. Where the heck is Kasdan when you need him anyway? :D

The Overlord Returns

11-07-2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by stillakid

I'll buy every bit of that :), except that I don't see why the Clone Wars have to be over and done with when Palpatine points the finger at the Jedi.

I doesn't have to, but I'm thinking it would be a case of "split focus". Besides, hasn't McCallum basically said ep 3 would open with the climactic battle of the clone wars, and the n progress from there as a smaller, darker film? Let the republic unite, and then Have Palpatine use the jedi, and dookus dissent in particular, to keep his emergency powers. He'll smear the jedi name, and the people will unite and agree to hunt them down and end the order. Why not? They don't need them to defend the republic, they've got a shiny new clone army;)

Originally posted by stillakid

The scapegoat Jedi you speak of would have to be Dooku as the leaders of those "rebel" factions would easily point him out of a crowd as being the leader. It could happen that way. That scenario would have to play out around the end of the first act. Then Dooku would be on the run and gunning for Palpatine. This would easily motivate Palpatine to recruit Anakin to hunt him down.

Yes, it has to be Dooku. Wouldn't it be interesting though, if in the interim between 2 and 3, a few other jedi had joined Dooku's movement? I like the idea with Anakin as well.....

Originally posted by stillakid

From the OT, I always had the sense that the Clone Wars were several years long. They, and the Jedi purge, could last well into the time period between Episodes III and IV.

I see about a 3 - 4 year gap between ep 2 and 3, but I think the clone wars will end near the beginning of the film; see above McCallum remark. I fee the purge happens very quickly, and very bloodily. The Jedi order seems all but a distant memory in ep 4, so I'd say they are disposed of and discredited in a very short time span.

Originally posted by stillakid

Although, now that I think about it, it would be a dramatic ending to Episode III to have Palpatine standing victorious as his troops returned home from removing the "rebellion" and the last remnants of the Jedi on the run. Good closure to lead us into the dark "mop up" years between III and IV. That way, we enter IV years later, well after the "Rebel Alliance" has been loosely formed and the Skywalker children are coming into their own.

I see Palps declaring himself Emperor, and basically tightening his fingers around the republic. We know he keeps the senate around until the mid way point in ep 4, but he does declare himself emperor before that. I think one final shot we will see near the end of the film is that of rogue senators. Bail, Mon Mothma, maybe even Jar Jar. Perhaps on the deck of a ship. That is the beginning of the rebellion.

Originally posted by stillakid

This works on a couple different levels, including a very tangible one, in that ANH was shot with an older filmstock and has an inherently "dirtier" look to it. Coming out of the squeaky clean looking Prequels into the gritty Episode IV would work very well...unless of course, Lucas blows the secret of Vader's identity, then it won't mean squat and the only way to watch these will be out of Episode order.

I've said for a while that the PT benefits plot wise from looking so much cleaner than the OT. It makes sense interms of what happens in the saga. It also mirrors our own progression from the peaceful "beautiful" times of the 18 and 19 centuries into the industrial, violent modern era of the 2oth and 21st centuries.

As for Vader, this is a very fine line in terms of discussion. Some say his identity MUST be kept secret, some say as long as luke doesn't know, we can. I fall somewhere in the middle. I do think we should see "Vader" in ep 3, but I think the tease needs to remain. People watching ep 4 for the first time aftetr watching eps 1 2 and 3, will know that Luke is Anakins son as soon as he says "I'm Luke Skywaler, I'm here to rescue you". Still, we can be in the Dark as to who Vader is. Anakin can "die" at the hands of Obi Wan, somewhere near the last 45 minutes of the film. Aquick line from Palps indicates his troops have "retrieved" something, and then vader is introduced. In a final confrontation with Kenobi, Vader can say something to Ben (as his name will be "ben" at this point) that hints at who he may be. I'd like to hear him mock ben for failing Qui Gon Jinn....but who knows.

Originally posted by stillakid

As for the rest, I agree...the Prequels thus far have been too chock full of fan pandering and, in my opinion, nearly ruined by it. It'll be bad enough having a Vader appearance in Episode III, but any sign of Tatooine or Dagobah at the end of the film or, god help us, lil' Han or lil' Chewy would be a cinematic blunder. Where the heck is Kasdan when you need him anyway? :D

I wouldn't say Chockful, the only real fan pandering so far was the inclusion of the Fett backstory, which ended up working, but basically ensures that Boba will play a role in ep 3. IF he kills Windu, I will be very dissapointed. If anything, have him kill a few younger jedi, even have a gruesome scene where he slaughters younglings, showing how far his hatred of the jedi burns. BUT, not Mace. It makes no sense.

Vader can appear, but it should remain a mystery. We will see obi wan on tatooine with infant luke, which I feel is ok. As for dagobah, it can be done, or left to our imagination without any real consequences. No Han, and no chewie, Lando, wedge et al. Let them play their parts in the saga when they need to.

Rogue II

11-07-2002, 10:25 AM

TOR and Stillakid, you 2 have had the most logical predictions for Ep 3 that I've read. I tend to lean towards TOR's thinking that we can see Vader and still keep his identity a secret. I figure they will at least mention Dagobah and there is nothing wrong if we see it. Of course, Vader might not be in his full ANH form. I

The only way I could see Boba Fett killing Mace would be in a space battle. Mace and company could be on a transport which is attacked by Boba Fett Slave I. I don't see how he could kill a Jedi council memeber in hand to hand combat as a teenager, only to get waxed by a blind man with a stick 20something years later.

I figure the only glimpse we will see of Tatooine is Obi Wan handing over baby Luke. And there should not be any more OT characters added to the story, except for Tarkin(during a Clone War scene or Mon Mothma(during a Senate scene).

The Overlord Returns

11-07-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Rogue II
TOR and Stillakid, you 2 have had the most logical predictions for Ep 3 that I've read. I tend to lean towards TOR's thinking that we can see Vader and still keep his identity a secret. I figure they will at least mention Dagobah and there is nothing wrong if we see it. Of course, Vader might not be in his full ANH form. I

The only way I could see Boba Fett killing Mace would be in a space battle. Mace and company could be on a transport which is attacked by Boba Fett Slave I. I don't see how he could kill a Jedi council memeber in hand to hand combat as a teenager, only to get waxed by a blind man with a stick 20something years later.

I figure the only glimpse we will see of Tatooine is Obi Wan handing over baby Luke. And there should not be any more OT characters added to the story, except for Tarkin(during a Clone War scene or Mon Mothma(during a Senate scene).

I agree, there is definitely a place for Tarkin and Mothma in the PT. Perhaps even A young ackbar. Actually, I think GL missed out by not having the Mon Cals living on the water planet, let alone being the cloners. Seems that they have a huge stake in the rebellion in the OT....

Rogue II

11-07-2002, 11:03 AM

I think having the Kamino was fine. I think the Mon Cal are more of engineers that biologists. They did build the B-Wing.

I can't remember the exact EU explanation, but I think Tarkin had a lot to do with the Mon Cal involvement in the Rebellion.

I suppose Tarkin could also make an appearance if they decide to get more into the Death Star.

I really hope GL doesn't try to cram too much stuff into the next movie. There is a lot of stuff he needs to explain, and only has a little over 2 hours to do it.

Tycho

11-07-2002, 02:18 PM

There's a lot of good thought being put into these threads. The logic is pretty sound, which is important to making it plausible. Stillakid and TOR are doing a good job.

Some pointers I want to add:

Mon Calamari: Quarrens (or Squidheads) come from the same planet - Mon Calamari, the planet. It seems that they are the Senators or the ones with political power though: note Senator Tikkes who became a Separatist. Could this have started a Civil War on Mon Calamari between the races? You will NOT see any Mon Calamari in the Galactic Senate so long as Senator Tikkes and the Quarren are there.

It is unclear whether Tessek, from Jabba's Palace, IS Senator Tikkes under a fake name. He may have fled, after siding his planet with Dooku, and ultimately for the worse. We know (if EU has any hold) that Mon Calamari was taken over by the Empire, and that the reason Admiral Ackbar is so well versed in Imperial strategy is because he was Grand Moff Tarkin's personal slave.

Perhaps the Quarren kept the Calamari's as slaves before the Empire got there, and then the situation just continued.

There will be no "Little Chewie" if he is seen in the prequels. Chewie was 200 years old in ANH, which means he'll be 182 during Episode 3, and I seriously doubt he'd look any different than he does in ANH. He will not know Han Solo, even if Han IS in the film. They met when Han was 23.

I think we should see Tarkin and Mon Mothma in Episode 3, possibly Garm Bel Ibis if EU counts for anything again (he is the Senator from Corellia, as 3 worlds form the original Rebel Alliance - Corellia, Alderaan, and Chandrilla).

However, the REAL Rebel Alliance was not formed until about 2 years before ANH when Bria Tharen from the Corellian Resistance set up a meeting between Garm Bel Ibis, and Bail Organa. Bria was Han's first and "ex" girlfriend.

Before the historic joining of forces, the Rebels represented different systems resisting Imperial Control by themselves. Imperial Control could also mean central government control, but I doubt Geonosis ever joined the Rebel Alliance, or only did so when they were weaponless or defenseless. Then Mon Mothma might have used Battle Droids against the Empire (versus Ewoks). It is more likely that Palpatine has the Geonosians wiped out so that no knowledge of the Death Star could leak out, should Poggle the Lesser or any of his minions continue to fight the Republic (or Empire). Geonosis would seem to be positioned to be an enemy of both - afterall the chief of state was still Palpatine either way.

stillakid

11-07-2002, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by The Overlord Returns

I wouldn't say Chockful, the only real fan pandering so far was the inclusion of the Fett backstory, which ended up working, but basically ensures that Boba will play a role in ep 3. IF he kills Windu, I will be very dissapointed. If anything, have him kill a few younger jedi, even have a gruesome scene where he slaughters younglings, showing how far his hatred of the jedi burns. BUT, not Mace. It makes no sense.

I had in mind the atrocious blow-the-trumpets introduction of R2 D2 in TPM:rolleyes:. R2 has some dignity left, but 3PO has been reduced to really bad comic relief. He really has no purpose for being in any scene thus far beyond just because we saw him in the OT. Yes, exactly, on the Fett thing and someone else mentioned elsewhere about the Clone Trooper helmets being a cross between Fett's and Stormtroopers. Instead of coming up with something original, they "pandered" to nostalgia once again and came up with something sub-par.

Originally posted by The Overlord Returns

Vader can appear, but it should remain a mystery. We will see obi wan on tatooine with infant luke, which I feel is ok. As for dagobah, it can be done, or left to our imagination without any real consequences. No Han, and no chewie, Lando, wedge et al. Let them play their parts in the saga when they need to.

Yeah, we could see that stuff without really giving anything away, but why ram that information down the audience's throat? We gather from info in ROTJ later on exactly what happened so why potentially ruin it and show it happening? It just isn't necessary to the story at that point at all and skirts that line of pandering that we've been talking about.

It's the same idea with seeing Vader. There's no point in it. Everything we need to know about Vader and how terrible he was we learn from Old Ben in the OT. Yes, it would be interesting to see but it's just repetitious in nature. GL already gave us all that post-script info about Vader, about what happened to the twins, about what happened to the Jedi (hunted down and destroyed). We simply don't have to see this stuff happen onscreen to tell the complete story. That's my objection to it. It just smacks of over-board cool-scenes-to-see thinking. I'm all for a fan-film that shows Vader going to town on some Jedi, but it's not necessary for the big screen and more importantly has the definite potential for blowing the secret out of the water.

Aside from that teenie-tiny issue, I believe we're definitely on the same track. :)

The one or two things that could destroy any sense of logic for me in Episode III are if GL resurrects the Midichlorians as a major plot element and if Qui Gon (post humously) has some major role in the conspiracy that we didn't know about. As everyone well knows by now, I'm not a fan of either of those plot elements (additions) to the saga and shudder to think of how they might be woven into the story from here on out. I personally think that they're better left alone to exist within the closed-universe of The Phantom Menace. Only time will tell. :)

The Overlord Returns

11-07-2002, 04:36 PM

You have to remember that r2 and 3 po are there to chronicle the story. They arethe viewers link. Their way in. Their introductions in the PT may not have been handled overly well ( I have no problem w/ r2's intro: he should come off as smarter than the average astromech;) ) but they do serve a purpose, in the same way the characters in TOB they were modelled after do.

We can agree to disagree on Vader. I never felt that his first appearance in ANH was good enough. His initial scenes always seemed like the audience already had seen this dude before.....but.....que sera....

as for your argument that we get the info in the OT, well....we get the info about anakin and the fall of the republic in the OT as well.....why even bother with a PT?

I don't think you'll hear anything about midichlorians again. It's been established that they exist, much like anakins miracle birth. No need to trek any further along that path.

As for qui gon, he's played his last part in the saga with his preternatural screams in AOTC. clearly, the jedi exist beyond the living realm, but this was hitherto unknown until yoda heard the screams. This will lead to the discovery that they can remain, and make contact with the living, which qui gon was clearly trying to do. Yoda and Ben will perfect the ability. There's no reason to have qui gon involved again.

Rogue II

11-07-2002, 06:23 PM

I thought Liam was talking about having something to do with Ep3, or did I hear wrong?

Good point about Vader's entrance in ANH.

tagmac

11-07-2002, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Rogue II
And there should not be any more OT characters added to the story, except for Tarkin(during a Clone War scene or Mon Mothma(during a Senate scene).

I have to disagree. Jan Dodonna also deserves to be seen in Ep III, as he is a major player in this whole thing, on the same level with Tarkin and Mothma. Chewbacca also deserves a cameo, as his character certainly wouldn't be too young, and would fit in as a background character, perhaps as a slave.

For all the talk on Han Solo, it makes sense to keep him out of Ep. III, if nothing more than because he'd still be a child. All this talk that he is gonna turn out to be a clone is ridiculous. Clones have no free will, while Solo is certainly the most losse-cannon, "un-PC" character in the OT - no way could he have been a clone.

Rogue II

11-08-2002, 06:56 AM

I forgot about Dodonna. I should have been less specific, any of the senior leadership from the Empire or the Rebellion would be fine.

stillakid

11-08-2002, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
You have to remember that r2 and 3 po are there to chronicle the story. They arethe viewers link. Their way in. Their introductions in the PT may not have been handled overly well ( I have no problem w/ r2's intro: he should come off as smarter than the average astromech;) ) but they do serve a purpose, in the same way the characters in TOB they were modelled after do.

We can agree to disagree on Vader. I never felt that his first appearance in ANH was good enough. His initial scenes always seemed like the audience already had seen this dude before.....but.....que sera....

as for your argument that we get the info in the OT, well....we get the info about anakin and the fall of the republic in the OT as well.....why even bother with a PT?

I don't think you'll hear anything about midichlorians again. It's been established that they exist, much like anakins miracle birth. No need to trek any further along that path.

As for qui gon, he's played his last part in the saga with his preternatural screams in AOTC. clearly, the jedi exist beyond the living realm, but this was hitherto unknown until yoda heard the screams. This will lead to the discovery that they can remain, and make contact with the living, which qui gon was clearly trying to do. Yoda and Ben will perfect the ability. There's no reason to have qui gon involved again.

I understand the "chronicle" thing. As you stated, their introduction into the Saga hasn't been outstanding in any way.

Re: Vader... Essentially I think that it's just too dangerous for him to appear in the same movie at some convenient time after we see Anakin go down, in terms of keeping the secret. George hasn't shown off his ability to tell any part of this story with subltly yet and including Vader in Ep III pretty much requires a steady hand that he doesn't appear to possess.

In reading another thread, I came up with some nifty inclusions into the 2nd and 3rd Acts: The Fate of the Clones (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=194532#post194532)

Let me know what you think! Thanks. :)

Tycho

11-08-2002, 01:07 PM

Stillakid: we are adults, and we must decide is Star Wars being made for us, or for kids. We WERE kids when ANH, ESB, ROTJ came out.

I think ANH and ESB, with the harder edge, were made for George, the way his mind was set when he started it. He was just a little bit older than I am now, and he wanted something seriuos, something tragic, something hardcore.

Then it became a thing for the kids. Then ROTJ had to have some levity and a happy ending. Still, Jedi did not ever get too light: Luke's fight with Darth, and against his own dark side when he had the opportunity to kill his father, were pretty serious situations. While the Ewoks pandered to "cute," Lucas did not neglect to show that it wasn't easy for them and at least a few of them could have died on camera (it's hard to tell), and one did for sure - although the adult interpretation of the Battle of Endor should be that hundreds of Ewoks died, only there were hundreds of Imperials, but upwards of thousands of Ewoks. It was the sheer numbers thing... (something that worked in reverse for the Empire with Stormtroopers, prior to the Endor conflict).

Then came Phantom Menace: a happy beginning had to be set up, to gradually bring the story into darkness. Anakin's mother and his prior loyalties before becoming a Jedi needed to be established - as well as how he had a lifelong obsession with Padme - and why her - why he reached out to her (because she was there for him at the outset of the separation between him and his mother). But the happy father-figure, Qui-Gon, was brutally killed, after seemingly being the star of the film. A foreshadowing of darkness was there in the stab of a lightsaber. JarJar pandered to kids, cartoons, and silliness, but aides in the establishment of a moral lesson for the story: we loathe geeks and fools, hate to see ourselves acting anything like them - which is why we can't abide them - they represent our weaknesses. But when left alone and not helped, they make serious situations worse: like Palpatine's ascendancy to holding martial law. Finally, I'm sure we'll see the purpose of the moral lesson fulfilled, when we're shown that it is what is in the heart of the character that matters most - if they have heart, they can develop and become better with care and help invested in them. I am sure that JarJar will DIE saving Padme, or Luke and Leia, or possibly all 3 of them - either as a decoy, or actually by stealing the children to safety. The lesson the fans learn for hating JarJar? That we would not have the classic Star Wars films if he did not die for Luke and Leia. That we are the bigots, the racists, the prejudiced, and we hate seeing what we don't like and don't respect, and consequently, we were wrong to discount the contributions of another because he is not like us. Do not think that Lucas is not educating in his newer focus on a younger audience. The lesson is just lost on most of us biggoted adults. It is a lesson Qui-Gon implied in Ep1, but many of you still won't acknowledge that until maybe 2005. But that is why JarJar was made as annoying as possible.

Your assesment that Lucas should be more subtle and that the skill requires a steady hand which he doesn't possess would fall apart if Dooku is Anakin's father. Then Shmi's story - which she never said was immaculate conception (- and heck, even Atheists believe Christ walked on earth, but they also don't believe THAT was immaculate conception), would have provided some of the subtlety that you seek. Same thing if Mace is in on a Sith-infiltration plot (and Darth Maul's ship is even ironically named, a hint put out way before we had enough clues to grasp its meaning). Also, if Han is a Clone, he won't have a name or call himself "Han," he'll just be a new breed (not from Jango) and manufactured by someone else, and his training will be incomplete because something will happen at the facility where he's being "programmed." The new Cloners may not be as good as the Kaminoans were, and perhaps their ability to think creatively, developed faster than their respect and obedience learning. Not to mention I'm sure the subtlety is there in the IRONY: Han thinks that the Force has nothing to do with his life- but it has everything to do with it - if the Sith did not want power when they did, the Clones wouldn't have existed! Further IRONY is that if Han is ordered to capture, or especially kill a pregnant woman, or a defenseless woman with a baby, and can refuse his obedience programming to carry out an immoral order, then his name need not be mentioned, but only a line that hints of who he is, such as : (PADME): Why are you helping us. (YOUNG CLONE): "Well, Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?" - that's all Han has to do with it, save for Boba Fett witnessing this, or knowing that it was Han who thwarted whatever plans Fett had for Padme. The rivalry between kids will look natural too, as Fett will be 14 (non-armored), and Han will be 11. Fett's better trained, and not of a forgiving nature. - Also he's part of a Clone line that is jealous of "the new line on the block." (Kind of like how Power Rangers surplanted Star Wars figures in the late 1980's).

If all my predictions come true, then isn't the subtlety there?

If not, heck, I'd rather write Episode 3 than have George do it....I'm rather fond of my ideas.

stillakid

11-08-2002, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Tycho
Stillakid: we are adults, and we must decide is Star Wars being made for us, or for kids. We WERE kids when ANH, ESB, ROTJ came out.

I think ANH and ESB, with the harder edge, were made for George, the way his mind was set when he started it. He was just a little bit older than I am now, and he wanted something seriuos, something tragic, something hardcore.

Then it became a thing for the kids. Then ROTJ had to have some levity and a happy ending. Still, Jedi did not ever get too light: Luke's fight with Darth, and against his own dark side when he had the opportunity to kill his father, were pretty serious situations. While the Ewoks pandered to "cute," Lucas did not neglect to show that it wasn't easy for them and at least a few of them could have died on camera (it's hard to tell), and one did for sure - although the adult interpretation of the Battle of Endor should be that hundreds of Ewoks died, only there were hundreds of Imperials, but upwards of thousands of Ewoks. It was the sheer numbers thing... (something that worked in reverse for the Empire with Stormtroopers, prior to the Endor conflict).

Then came Phantom Menace: a happy beginning had to be set up, to gradually bring the story into darkness. Anakin's mother and his prior loyalties before becoming a Jedi needed to be established - as well as how he had a lifelong obsession with Padme - and why her - why he reached out to her (because she was there for him at the outset of the separation between him and his mother). But the happy father-figure, Qui-Gon, was brutally killed, after seemingly being the star of the film. A foreshadowing of darkness was there in the stab of a lightsaber. JarJar pandered to kids, cartoons, and silliness, but aides in the establishment of a moral lesson for the story: we loathe geeks and fools, hate to see ourselves acting anything like them - which is why we can't abide them - they represent our weaknesses. But when left alone and not helped, they make serious situations worse: like Palpatine's ascendancy to holding martial law. Finally, I'm sure we'll see the purpose of the moral lesson fulfilled, when we're shown that it is what is in the heart of the character that matters most - if they have heart, they can develop and become better with care and help invested in them. I am sure that JarJar will DIE saving Padme, or Luke and Leia, or possibly all 3 of them - either as a decoy, or actually by stealing the children to safety. The lesson the fans learn for hating JarJar? That we would not have the classic Star Wars films if he did not die for Luke and Leia. That we are the bigots, the racists, the prejudiced, and we hate seeing what we don't like and don't respect, and consequently, we were wrong to discount the contributions of another because he is not like us. Do not think that Lucas is not educating in his newer focus on a younger audience. The lesson is just lost on most of us biggoted adults. It is a lesson Qui-Gon implied in Ep1, but many of you still won't acknowledge that until maybe 2005. But that is why JarJar was made as annoying as possible.

Your assesment that Lucas should be more subtle and that the skill requires a steady hand which he doesn't possess would fall apart if Dooku is Anakin's father. Then Shmi's story - which she never said was immaculate conception (- and heck, even Atheists believe Christ walked on earth, but they also don't believe THAT was immaculate conception), would have provided some of the subtlety that you seek. Same thing if Mace is in on a Sith-infiltration plot (and Darth Maul's ship is even ironically named, a hint put out way before we had enough clues to grasp its meaning). Also, if Han is a Clone, he won't have a name or call himself "Han," he'll just be a new breed (not from Jango) and manufactured by someone else, and his training will be incomplete because something will happen at the facility where he's being "programmed." The new Cloners may not be as good as the Kaminoans were, and perhaps their ability to think creatively, developed faster than their respect and obedience learning. Not to mention I'm sure the subtlety is there in the IRONY: Han thinks that the Force has nothing to do with his life- but it has everything to do with it - if the Sith did not want power when they did, the Clones wouldn't have existed! Further IRONY is that if Han is ordered to capture, or especially kill a pregnant woman, or a defenseless woman with a baby, and can refuse his obedience programming to carry out an immoral order, then his name need not be mentioned, but only a line that hints of who he is, such as : (PADME): Why are you helping us. (YOUNG CLONE): "Well, Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?" - that's all Han has to do with it, save for Boba Fett witnessing this, or knowing that it was Han who thwarted whatever plans Fett had for Padme. The rivalry between kids will look natural too, as Fett will be 14 (non-armored), and Han will be 11. Fett's better trained, and not of a forgiving nature. - Also he's part of a Clone line that is jealous of "the new line on the block." (Kind of like how Power Rangers surplanted Star Wars figures in the late 1980's).

If all my predictions come true, then isn't the subtlety there?

If not, heck, I'd rather write Episode 3 than have George do it....I'm rather fond of my ideas.

Well, uh, YES! You're absolutely correct. If all those domino's fell into place, then I suppose GL would somehow prove his grasp of subtlety. However, as I have nothing to go on besides what we have tangibly before us (OT, Ep's 1 and 2), I can only base my current thoughts and opinions on those.

I wholeheartedly agree with your summation of the OT, that it went from a classicly told film (ANH), to something perhaps a little more personal (ESB), ending with something resembling a kiddie-flick (ROTJ). Despite that, I disagree with this:

Originally posted by Tycho
Stillakid: we are adults, and we must decide is Star Wars being made for us, or for kids. We WERE kids when ANH, ESB, ROTJ came out.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your unspoken conclusion with this statement appears to me to be that

a) as kid's, we were less demanding of story than adults are, and

b) that adults, even at that time, didn't care for the films as much as kid's did.

As much as I loath revisiting this issue, this is precisely the topic I was attempting to discuss some weeks ago with Jar Jar when the sh*t hit the fan. Despite the answer to that, my only remaining question would be why can't the Saga be made for both kids and adults simulaneously? Does a film being made for kids preclude it from having serious depth of story? Or better yet, are fart jokes and characters stumbling over themselves now a requirement to be considered a kiddie movie? Did we really need a Midichlorian Counter to tell us that Anakin had Force potential? Was there a better, more subtle way to do it? What it boils down to is that a lot of us, at the tender ages of 6-11 or so, found the original Star Wars to be full of everything we wanted to see without the need for needless pandering. (And adults lined up by the busloads for over a year!) I don't believe that children have sunk so low developmentally in the past 25 years that they require the simplest of plots to understand what's going on and the silliest of characters to hold their attention.

Now, having said that, it's all conjecture of what we think the Saga might wind up being in the end, but the ultimate truth of it depends on what we see onscreen with Episode III. Your version does contain some subtlety to it and if we actually see a plot that complicated in the theaters, I'll be genuinely surprised.

But at the moment, I can't be convinced that, for one example, the Midichlorians were included in TPM for any other reason than to give Qui Gon a tangible way to tell the audience that Anakin had Force ability. Nothing more, nothing less. Instead of writing a subtle means of showing us this, Lucas sat everybody down at the dinner table and laid out the exposition. That's my current position. Lucas could pull a rabbit out of his hat with Episode III and wow me with his insight into plot layering and such, but until then, I'll just have to have fun reading ideas from others and writing my own version in my head.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be freakin' ecstatic if Epidode III ties all those wacky ends together into a film worthy of Oscar praise. I'll gladly have a slice of humble pie and declare that I couldn't see the big picture like George can. :) But based on ROTJ through the Prequels, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Tycho

11-08-2002, 07:06 PM

Stillakid, you phrased your position very nicely, gave the other side of the coin some thought, and I thank you for really taking the time to read and understand what my point of view, (or speculation) in this case was.

We're clear as a bell. And you're right, for some reason or another, the other thread went to hell. This is, by contrast, continuing a very enlightened discussion. Now back to Star Wars...

You surmised I was saying:

a) that kids (you suggest 6-11 year olds) couldn't understand or appreciate a more complicated plot in the Classics

and

b) that adults (at the time - who are now in their 40-50's) did not appreciate the films as much as we did (those of us now in our 20's - 30's who were 6- 16 at the time the classic movies came out).

Hmmmm. I can't say that conclusively, but I do agree with variations on that theme.

a) Kids who are actually 1- 4 years of age are being taken to the films now by their parents- who are from our generation, more or less. The kids in the toy stores that I've seen, that young, responded really well to JarJar. Adult mothers did so as well. If you recall a discussion I had with you about what's being bought in the toy isles back around last June....

The pandering to kids might be happening, but Lucas is targeting kids younger than your 6 - 11 year olds.

That is not to say the whole movie, or even a majority of it, panders to this age group. IT IS TO SAY that Lucas takes "a something for everyone" approach and in a movie that many adult fans want to believe is made for them, there are included elements like fart jokes that pander to the youngest and smallest viewers out there - the ones that cry when they see Darth Maul. As a very young child, not even 4 years old, my parents told me THAT I HID UNDER MY SEAT in the movie theater, when Darth Vader stormed into the Blockade Runner. I came out because I thought Leia was pretty, but I was quite unsettled during a lot of the movie until I decided Chewbacca was going to protect the nice Old Man and the young hero I kind of related to.

I don't know how I would've reacted to JarJar then, but he does seem to make youngsters of this age group laugh. I find it easier than some others my age to remember being that young, and I laugh with them. Maybe that's a trait that will help me understand my own kids if I decide to have them, and I'll make a pretty good dad - or at least a fun one!

B) Adults did not care for the film as much as kids did? Hmmmm. Yes I'll agree that I meant to say that exactly as it sounds. SirSteve is in his later 20's. Mike from Galaxy Hunter is in his early 30's. JediTricks, late 20's. Thrawn, early 30's. Phillip Wise of Rebelscum is one of the only major Star Wars fans so dedicated as to put a site up out there, that is in his 40's-50's. Steve Sansweet is one of the few collectors of his magnitude, and his age level. The competition in the isles at Midnight Madness is a clear majority of 20-30 year olds, barring teenagers who are new fans and collectors. Older adults in their 40's to 50's are there as parents in greater numbers than they are there because "that's their thing."

Anyway, the 20-30 year olds were the 2-10 year olds in 1977 when Star Wars began its legacy.

Now we've grown up and some of us are interested in more adult movies with complicated plots like political scandals where a seemingly low bureaucrat manuevers things to discredit a superior, and sets things up to where he can use the scandal to ascend to power and usurp his former superior's position.

Or we like action movies where martial-artists of reknowned skills flip and spin and use their best fighting moves to inflict lethal and final punishments upon their adversaries...

Ooops - I forgot. I'm still talking about The Phantom Menace above...Or it could have been "Nixon," "The West Wing," or "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." -except those masterpieces don't have a cartoon character or fart jokes. But they were never regarded as "movies for the whole family," either.

And to finally wrap up with Midi-Chlorians, I think that IF I am right, and Dooku is Anakin's father, there had to be a reason to give Anakin a blood test and have his DNA material to compare it to his fathers with - and make it a standard proceedure so that the discovery wasn't too convenient. Who knows if Qui-Gon could recognize his old Master's DNA? Moreover, even if he could, all he had was Anakin's blood - Obi-Wan saw the analysis and knew much less about Dooku - especially back then, 10 years before it became an issue. I think that if this is the case (my theory) than the Jedi Council knows, and Obi-Wan still does not. It lends itself to the Anakin thinking he's damned himself for killing his own father and blaming Obi-Wan for not telling him, however at the same time it exonnerates Obi-Wan because we'll learn that he did not know at the time - or at least not before or during AOTC.

The 'Xir

11-09-2002, 03:59 PM

Jeez, I'm out for a couple a days and everyone has delusions of granduer!

I'm glad to see so much excitment/thought/and debate being put into this upcomming episode. I haven't read all these post thouroughly, but I just wanted to remark on the original issue! I totally think that Dooku is just what he appears to be A Jedi gone Bad and is lying to Obi-Wan, but I just expounded on the Mace thing as a cool twist that could happen!
And, Now to throw some more twists into your spaghetti..: As I said I didn't read everything above thourougly, so I don't know if someone mentioned it, and I'm not convinced of the the whole love triangle thing between Ani, Padme, and Ben; but based on that idea, I have this strange feeling that Anakin in some way might end up killing for be responsible for Padme's death?! What'dya guys think?

stillakid

11-09-2002, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by The 'Xir
Jeez, I'm out for a couple a days and everyone has delusions of granduer!

Delusions? ;)

Originally posted by The 'Xir

...I have this strange feeling that Anakin in some way might end up killing for be responsible for Padme's death?! What'dya guys think?

I don't know that it would come into play. In ROTJ, Leia's recollections of her childhood include her "sad" mother. That would imply that she was at least old enough for the memory to stick, meaning anywhere from age 4 to, presumably, 7 or 8. We can assume from that that Padme lives on at least a few years beyond the (again assumed) end of Episode III. It is possible, but in that case it wouldn't necessarily effect any of the onscreen plot events we'll be seeing. That is, unless GL does some whacked out time foreshortening thing where he leaps forward to show the kids as toddlers. I don't really put anything past him anymore...:(

2-1B

11-10-2002, 02:34 PM

Good discussion, everyone. :)

As for the thread question, I believe Dooku is a traitor with no thoughts of killing Palpatine in the name of good.

While watching AOTC last night, I made note of Dooku's comments to Yoda that "I'm more powerful than any Jedi, even you." Well, that's the exact same thing Palpatine says to Ani earlier in the movie, and I believe Palpatine is using the same technique on Ani as he did on Dooku. The Count may have started toward the dark side with good intentions (similar to what stillakid said about Anakin heading toward the dark side without knowing it) but as Dooku got into it he developed a taste for power.

Seduced, indeed. :crazed:

The 'Xir

11-11-2002, 10:56 AM

Alright, I watched ROTJ again last night, and OK just on the fact of the prequels style and repeating themes, maybe this whole love triangle thing might happen kinda like how Han, and Luke were always fighting for Leia's affections. Which inturn could lead into my new twist Idea of Anakin killing Padme or being responsible for her death! Although, the only thing is that Ben has really showed no signs of interest in Padme what-so-ever. Yet, I understand it all could be suppossed through lies from Dooku or Sidious! OK now let's kill Padme... :D
Stillakid brought up a good point I hadn't thought through enough, However we know the marriage ain't gonna last too long anyways and Padme is going to go through some incredibly trying times. So It's possible, that the twins could be born before the final battle, the final duel happens, Anakin is thought lost, and now the issue is brought about of the twins exile away from Palpatine! One of two things could happen:
1) Everything climaxes on Naboo, the births, the final duel, so the twins could be born and Anakin has something to do with Padme's death,(just haven't thought of the how yet) possibly like a casualty of war thing or an injury that elludes to her demise from the war. Basically everyone is in the right place at the right time for it to happen!
or
2) Vader is introduced, and when trying to contact Padme or chasing her down while in the midst of hiding the twins Vader kills her!(once again just haven't yet thought of the how)

No matter the scenario, due to Leia also having Jedi powers, we could see a scene that shows a very sadden Padme holding young leia, and because of leia's powers she is able to remember thoughs thoughts and feelings at such a young age! What about Luke you ask, I know it's a stretch and all but maybe it is just something that could be portrayed as simple as Padme Holding one child(leia) while say Ben, Yoda, Lars, Beru, maybe even Organa holds young Luke! So Luke never having that direct connectiojn to his Mother, truely seperated at birth!
'Cause I hate to say it, something like this has to happen if only because we know there's too much story left too tell, and not enough movie time to show the kids at a later age in life!

tagmac

11-13-2002, 12:10 AM

After watching AOTC, I'm starting to believe more and more that Mce Windu will turn out to be a traitor. Right after he kills Jango, Mace looks up at Dooku.....to me, it looked more like a look of acknowledgement, as if to say "the deed is done" and Jango has been offed. Someone brought up this theory earlier, and while I didn't really believe it then, I think it could end up being one of the big surprises in AOTC.

Granted, this leaves open the possibility that Dooku IS a double agent, and only Mace knows it, but considering Dooku had no qualms about killing all the Jedi, he is truly a Sith (and Mace a traitor). In fact, Dooku tells Sidious that "the war has begun as planned." Obviously he was one of the select few who knew everything Palpatine was doing.

Sith Lord 0498

11-13-2002, 12:56 AM

It seemed to me as if Mace's expression read something like "There goes the source of your clones. You won't get anymore from Jango."

Although that raises the question: How does Mace know Dooku was the person impersonating Sifo-Dyas?

Perhaps Mace was merely rubbing it in that he just killed Dooku's bodyguard and protection.

Tycho

11-13-2002, 01:28 AM

I find both Tagmac's and Sith Lord's suppositions opposite each other, but equally sound.

I was thinking the same thing as both of you, on different occasions that I watched Clones.

May 25, 2005 seems an incredibly long way off now...

stillakid

11-13-2002, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by tagmac
After watching AOTC, I'm starting to believe more and more that Mce Windu will turn out to be a traitor. Right after he kills Jango, Mace looks up at Dooku.....to me, it looked more like a look of acknowledgement, as if to say "the deed is done" and Jango has been offed.

Like I said, you could reach out and extrapolate a lot of that kind of stuff from S. Jackson's acting thoughout the Prequels, but the problem with your above theory, in my opinion, is with Dooku's reaction just after the shot you're talking about. Dooku is visibly disturbed and appears quite shocked at the outcome of that mini-duel. In my opinion, that negates that possibility of Mace killing Fett as some kind of understanding with the bad guys.

tagmac

11-13-2002, 07:36 PM

The other thing that has me leaning towards the "Mace as a traitor" theory is his reaction when Obi-Wan asks if the clone army had been ordered and, without hesitation, Mace shoots down that theory with authority, as if he was tring to hide something. Couple that with the fact that a jedi had to have erased the archives (and it's doubtful Dooku or Palpatine could have gone in there as unnoticed as a council member could have), and you have for one very interesting possibility.

The 'Xir

11-19-2002, 01:19 AM

Not to mention that he supports dooku,"you know m'Lady, Dooku was once a Jedi he couldn't assasinate anyone". Along with the fact of who could have erased the library files? Yes this all could be Dooku's doing, however, it would just be a much more interesting story if Mace turns out to be Bad!
The only dispell, for all of this is that on the DVD documentaries, Lucas acknowledges that Mace will die in EpIII, and suggests that it may happen honorably!
Hhhmmm? Maybe instead of Jar Jar it is Mace who dies trying to save Padme!

Tycho

11-19-2002, 02:40 AM

I think they all will die trying to save Padme:

Mace
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi Mundi
JarJar Binks
Captain Typho
Dorme

I think it's most likely that Mace "gives himself to the Force" like Obi-Wan does in his conflict with Vader on the Death Star.

They hear Qui-Gon can't rest with the dead while Anakin is turning to the Dark Side of the Force.

Qui-Gon was a renegade who believed in "the living Force," something non-traditional. Perhaps, it is his belief that finally makes sense to Yoda and Mace, that they can "live in the Force." Obi-Wan adhere's to his old Master's lesson as well.

And of course it would be VADER that is stalking the Senator, because he still loves his wife and wants to see that she is safe, and his children are raised to serve their father's Empire. Only as I speculate, the audience that doesn't know any better (first time viewers unfamiliar with the Classic movies) will fear for Padme's life as this new dark stalker relentlessly pursues her through the frightening swamps of Dagobah!

I think Fett tracks down Mace for revenge - it's toally set up. But Mace gives himself to the Force (original theory by Rollo Tomassi - and quite a good one) prompting Vader to tell him "No disintegrations!"

Meanwhile, it will present the perfect opportunity for

1) Vader to kill Plo Koon
2) Vader to kill Ki-Adi Mundi
3) JarJar to die also saving either Padme, or one or both kids
4) Captain Typho and Dorme to die doing their duty to Padme
5) Padme to possibly be mortally wounded, but from something that won't kill her for 3 more years while she hangs on and her daughter remembers her.

6) Obi-Wan to confront Darth Vader - realize it is Anakin without saying his name.

6a) Possibly holding Luke with him when Vader sees them both.

6b) Possibly being let go, to raise Luke as he raised Anakin, but to never return (either of them) so that the kid would be safe from the Emperor.

"To protect you both FROM THE EMPEROR, you were hidden from your father when you were born."

That does not mean that Anakin didn't ASK for his kid to be hidden from him, so Palpatine could not find him. That the language in the background given by ROTJ is so imprecise, could allow for this to be true - that is why Luke was not raised under a different name, and anybody could look "Luke Skywalker" up in the white pages for Mos Eisley.

Perhaps, even the Emperor knew that Obi-Wan was raising Luke, but Vader made a deal with him to serve his Sith Lord Master, so that his former teacher and his son were left alone. What would Palpatine care if he knew Luke would eventually fall into their hands. He had a galaxy to control, and his enemy would eventually show up for him to slaughter as he had foreseen in ROTJ. That might be another reason why Vader served Palpatine: to protect his family, which he ordered hidden by Obi-Wan.

1) he thought Padme died twice before she did - once when he turned to the Dark Side and blamed Obi-Wan, and a second time when he knew she was wounded and bound to die later, but after her child was born.

2) he did not know Padme had twins, obviously. Leia was a secret from even Vader.

3) he asked Obi-Wan to raise Luke, somewhere hidden where he would never go. He was ashamed of what he'd become so he didn't kill Obi-Wan later, and he wouldn't return to say "hello" to the very sight of the grave of his mother he swore he would not fail as a Jedi over.

4) He had trusted Palpatine, but had also learned he'd misplaced that trust, but the Jedi were being slaughtered. The only hope for his son was to make sure that Palpatine would not kill the boy - and Vader's life in service of the Empire was the price. Palpatine still planned to kill Luke, but would wait for him. In Empire Strikes Back, Vader sought to find Luke before Palpatine did, so that Luke might join his father, and together destroy the Emperor.

All this makes sense to me. How about you? Stillakid? Everyone?

The 'Xir

11-20-2002, 01:29 AM

Vader knowing of Luke isn't unreasonable. I just don't like making any direct links between Vader and Luke, so that way the Empire "suprise" would still be intact for future generations as they watch!

Tycho

11-20-2002, 01:50 AM

Exactly!

darthulosenow

11-20-2002, 02:14 AM

i think that mace is going to be killed by boba and thats how boba gets his fame just like when vader told boba in esb i think it was mace that was incinerated. and also padme is going to die right after the kids are born by palpitine and thats why anikan goes nuts turns fights his master, loses gets put in his vader suit goes after dooku kills him and he hunts all the remaining jedi so that he can bring balance to the force
rumors say that dagobah is naboo thats why luke remembers it

Darkross

11-20-2002, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by darthulosenow
i think that mace is going to be killed by boba and thats how boba gets his fame just like when vader told boba in esb i think it was mace that was incinerated. and also padme is going to die right after the kids are born by palpitine and thats why anikan goes nuts turns fights his master, loses gets put in his vader suit goes after dooku kills him and he hunts all the remaining jedi so that he can bring balance to the force
rumors say that dagobah is naboo thats why luke remembers it

Personally I think that Mace will die at the hands of Boba Fett (and it better be a dramatic death too!) and Boba Fett will also disintegrate Padme...that's why Vader references it in ESB. IMHO, Dagobah is not Naboo, but rather Luke & Leia will be born on Dagobah and then go their separate ways after...that will be why Luke remembers Dagobah. Dooku will be killed at the hands of Anakin within the first 30 minutes or so of Episode III.

The Overlord Returns

11-20-2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Darkross

Personally I think that Mace will die at the hands of Boba Fett (and it better be a dramatic death too!) and Boba Fett will also disintegrate Padme...that's why Vader references it in ESB. IMHO, Dagobah is not Naboo, but rather Luke & Leia will be born on Dagobah and then go their separate ways after...that will be why Luke remembers Dagobah. Dooku will be killed at the hands of Anakin within the first 30 minutes or so of Episode III.

What I'm getting at is that Vader knows that Fett does a job for the highest bidder...he's just protecting his assets (Han / Leia / Chewbacca) to blackmail Luke!

Padme's death won't be blamed on Boba Fett, but rather Anakin will blame Obi-Wan...hence their duel...

The Overlord Returns

11-20-2002, 11:21 AM

Dude, I simply saw in your post the opportunity to make a funny.....

stillakid

11-20-2002, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Tycho

All this makes sense to me. How about you? Stillakid? Everyone?

Well, you know, as I said before, anything is plausible if the dominoes drop that way. Personally, I'm against Vader appearing at all in Episode III, but knowing full well that some kind of "presence" of him will be there, I'm not of the mind to extend his appearance to more than a brief V.O. cameo or something to that effect. In my own pet theory of Ep III, there is enough story to fill 2 hours with a climax that culminates with Anakin's appearance of death. Any more than that will dive-bomb the Prequels completely into the realm of "unofficial" EU for me. But that's just me, at this point anyway. Who knows? Maybe he'll get some credible help writing this Episode and it will surprise us all with it's Oscar-worthiness. Only time will tell. :)

As far as Mace goes, I've been reading the variety of scenarios here, and as I see it, not a one of them is better or worse than the other. Why? Because, good or bad, the guy is essentially inconsequential to the Saga as a whole anyway. Same with Qui Gon. Aside from his inconsistency with the OT (as I see it), his loyalties are inconsequential as well. What really matters is Palpatine and his subtle machinations. Everyone else are simply pawns. Some live to see life in the OT, while others will perish, but either way, we know that Palpatine succeeds. Finding out what part everyone plays in the chess game is interesting, but ultimately quite unimportant. The OT is the established continuity and all roads must point in that direction for the Saga's integrity to be maintained.

And, more to the point of this discussion anyway, I personally don't have enough information from the screen to discern much of anything about Mace, Qui Gon, or anyone else in terms of what we might see them do in Ep III. So far, it all seems like wild speculation based on our own personal preferences. My own theories revolve entirely around what we do know for certain, based on the established continuity in the OT as well as some of the new elements introduced in Ep I and II. I've purposefully left out anything having to do with Mace and Co., because I honestly haven't seen anything to lead me to believe anything one way or another. For instance, the question of "why" Obi Wan and Anakin fight. There's nothing yet to indicate squat so every conceivable explanation is up for grabs. Just like my Lottery numbers before the drawing, one is just as good as the next. :)