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Author
Topic: Pope: Condoms not the answer to AIDS (Read 20202 times)

The Catholic Church has over 2000 years of Apostolic succession, and direct teachings of the apostles. I don't know about you but I am putting my money on the Church that was granted the "keys" to loose and bind after Christ gave Peter the Authority to be the "ROCK" of the Church.. The Reformation started long after the original Church was started.

If you are a none believer like you have indicated I would encourage you to get all you can out of your conciseness and enjoy yourself. No one is making you believe anything here. I just am a voice of the Church and Her teachings. I care about you and everyone anyone else no matter what they believe. I am just hear to plant a seed. If it grows that is great if not I will shake it off and move on.

The Church is not promoting death it is asking us to act in a way if YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN to imitate the teachings of CHRIST. We all have free will to do what we want.

I would thank you and hope you would pray for me on my journey, I need all the help I can get. May GOD bless you and keep you.

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

This popes legacy ist simply no kondom use,let people do sexnatŁrlich and all will be right-what a madness!!!!I have seen how many of my neighbours in africawere terribly sick with very strange symptomesof aids and have died.They suffered and wanted todie quickly but the death came slowly. Every day in myvillage of 2000 people,we bury aids dead people. thesepeople have no access to hiv treatment or are neverdiagnosed as aids patient.

I will put my hand on fire that this pope had had fornicationwithout condom in the past.

we in africa want an apology from the pope about his condomremarks,because we are deeply hurt by him!!!!

U1195, I'm very sorry that you're being forced to read the more uncaring parts of this thread. I'm hoping that you realize that 99% of our board members do not see things that way. Evidently compassion only goes as far as the inside of the confession booth for some folks.

Compassion is not just defined by your idea and your values. I would hope that you would not be so narrow minded to subject everyone to you ideology. I have not been in anyway disrespectful or not caring to anyone. I can not be anymore clear that the Church has a responsibility to guard its flock. I have made it clear that we all have free will to choose. The Hiv/Aids epidemic in the world is not caused by the Church. The Church is just offering a solution to the problem. Like it or not you can either take the advise or brush it off.

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

The Church is just offering a solution to the problem. Like it or not you can either take the advise or brush it off.

Just brush it off? I can't even brush you off my friend..

And let's not even go far enough in history to include, you know, the Spanish Inquisition, the price of brushing the Church off was indeed rather severe.

Even now as much as I try to brush it off it still comes back to, you know, organize with the Mormons to trash gay marriage in California.. are we talking about the same Church that tells its members who are politicians that their communion will be withheld if they dare support stem-cell researches and other sins like abortion and gay rights?

If you currently belong to the Church of St-Just-Brush-Me-Off I think you might not be in a Catholic Church.

The catholic church is just letting their millennia long hate of anything sexual get in the way of reason. Never mind that means increasing the number of people who die because of hiv in Africa.

Condoms may not be 100% effective as an hiv prevention strategy, but they get extremely close to that number when PROPERLY used and stored.

Abstinence is a solution to hiv as much as never taking a car is a solution to dying in a car accident.

Promoting fidelity may have a place as a hiv containment strategy, but it's irrational to say abstinence and fidelity must be the ONLY prevention strategies used, disregarding all scientifically proven methods just because they happen to get in the way of your own moral prejudice.

Besides, fidelity has an enormous flaw: you are not in control of your partner's fidelity.

Using condoms empowers people, making them responsible for their choices and taking charge of their sexual health. Promoting fidelity creates "victims" of their partners infidelities.

Of course we all have free will. But with power comes responsibility. Specially towards those in a position of weakness, be it because of lack of wealth, health of information.

Teaching and spreading proper condom use, combined with promoting sexual behavior that reduces the number of sexual partners would reduce hiv infection in Africa much more than just preaching abstinence.

Thus, the catholic church is responsible for using its authority (for those who recognize it as such) for promoting a subpar, unscientific hiv prevention strategy, contributing to further spreading hiv infection in the poorer areas of the world.

The Church is very consistant in what She teaches, and it gives the greatest amount of respect to GOD and the sanctity of human life.

The Church is consistent? Since when? There have been so many changes through the years. Respect for the sanctity of life? Don't make me laugh. The Church has more blood on its hands than just about any other institution. You don't really seem to have much of a grasp of history.

You're free to believe what you want and you are free to be an apologist for The Church and I will defend your right to do so. However, when this Church of yours bases it's Teachings on outright lies and disingenuous manipulation of facts - and those lies result in deaths that could have otherwise been avoided - then I'm going to raise my voice against those Teachings.

One of the main problems with the idea that condom distribution in Africa isn't working is simply the fact that you can distribute condoms, but that doesn't mean they're being used. I remember watching a documentary a while back. They were investigating condom programs in Africa and the biggest hurdle they encountered was getting men to put the darn things on when having intercourse. They didn't like them - simple as.

And of course there's the rumour being bandied about that condoms distributed in Africa have been contaminated with hiv by evil industrialized nations. This rumour was started by The Church. And that other rumour started by The Church about condoms having tiny holes that hiv can pass through. If people think that condoms are going to infect them (impossible) or that they're not going to work anyway, why use them?

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

The Church is not promoting death it is asking us to act in a way if YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN to imitate the teachings of CHRIST.

The problem is that the Holy Roman Catholic Church has taken it upon itself to tell us what the teachings of Christ are. The problem is that this church has decided that it, and only it, knows what the teachings are. The problem is that this Jesus Christ never taught anything about the use of condoms, which had not been invented when he lived. The problem is that this Jesus Christ person, whom we know only from documents alleged to have been written by followers who knew him personally, taught nothing about the the nonprocreative uses of sexuality--but befriended prostitutes, if the documents are to be believed. The problem is that this Jesus person spoke mostly of love, and the problem is that this Church believes that only it can define what "love" means 2,000 years later. The problem is that this Church tries to impose what it says Jesus taught upon everyone, not just its adherents.

I can not be anymore clear that the Church has a responsibility to guard its flock.

How? Does the shepherd ignore the wolf because the wolf was created by God and it is an innate characteristic of the wolf to feed on sheep? How does the Church guard its flock against a virus? Does the shepherd move its flock to a desert where there are no wolves?

The Hiv/Aids epidemic in the world is not caused by the Church. The Church is just offering a solution to the problem.

Yes, it is A solution, but it is only a partial solution, and it is not the only solution. The problem is that the Church says it is the ONLY solution. The problem is that 2,000 years after this person Jesus lived we have scientific solutions that are better. By refusing to acknowledge this--indeed, blatantly denying this and lying about it--the epidemic has been made, and is being made, much, much worse. The problem is that "2000 years of Apostolic succession" are responsible for more human suffering, more torture, and more death than caused by any other organization or government in human history.

The problem is that, 2,000 years after this person lived whose teachings the Church insists only it can know, we are long past the time when many of us can silently ignore its promulgations and just watch while its victims die painful, horrendous deaths that could have been prevented. It is long past the time when we must loudly object and condemn and fight such barbaric, cruel behavior and edicts. Some of us believe in the precept of love and know that those who proclaim "Christian love" the loudest are actually the worst haters.

No, those are not the only two options. We do not have to do either. We can condemn the advise [sic], and we can condemn those who give it as murderers, no different from those who lit all those faggots to burn all those "heretics" at the stake, who persecuted those who believed the earth revolved around the sun (since, you see, this Jesus person taught that the sun and the planets revolved around the earth). This Church knows nothing of science, and it knows nothing about the complexity of human sexuality, but it declares itself expert in both. We no longer have to believe it or just "brush it off," especially when lives are at stake. We must fight against this Church.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

church did not discover the HIV virus in the 80s.The church has never discover any HAART,and AIDS drugs.Left for the church aids today would still have been a death sentence!But the church can always open its mouth and explain scientificdiscoveries eventhough they have little,and often misguiding knowlege.what a shame and evil!!!

We have a serious problem problem of AIDS in africa becauseseveral millions of people,women and children who need aids medication are not having it,and are dieing every minute in pains more than in hell fire,and what ist the pope and churches doing-simply playing the moral card,und endangering more people.

I donot know if the whole thing is simply ignorance on the part of the popeand church or they just want to increase their power?

The church says practice abstinence,no condoms!but manypeople cannot practice abstinence-they are having sex and thevirus is spreading. it worsen the problem if people are discouragedfrom using condoms!!!!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I think u are right.The church seems to have alot of differences with science.I am not sure I understand fully how the church comes to itsnew facts,but it is something like "Just believe what we(the church) tellyou,ask for no proof-it is simply a belief,Amen"

in der medieval times the church preached the world is flat likea plate and like that for several centuries against every critic!!

I will end with this. I can speak for myself in that If I would have followed the teachings of the Catholic Church more closely I personally would not be in the mess I am in. I would have to bet many of you are also in my same shoes. That is proof enough. PERIOD.

I am not saying that people should not have the right to use condoms, buy no means am I. But the Catholic Church is spot on when She teaches that abstinence is the only clear way to keep from acquiring HIV. THEY ARE RIGHT.

We can all roll around in our free will, but something for most of us went wrong when we were not following a facet of the Churches teaching on human life. PERIOD.

The Catholic Church did not cause the spread of HIV in Africa humans did. I am very sympathetic to all those suffering people that have no means to health care. I would also say that if one is not going to follow the Churches teachings on human sexuality it would be a very good idea to use a condom. But still the Churches teachings are still the most affective if one can follow them. If one can not I say protect yourself as best you can.

Is it group hug time yet. I would hope that you guys/gals don't hate me because I was brave enough to take a differant view than yours, but I figured I was around a lot of people that preached tolerance and felt comfortable sharing my views. Just a thought.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 12:35:27 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Let me share my last experience, with the Catholic church, in the hopes that you can instruct me as to what I did, that was so horribly wrong, as to justify the bastardization of my daughter, in the eyes of that very church.

In short, when I got divorced and came out as being gay, my ex used the fact, that I was gay, to have our marriage annulled in the church, even though we had produced a beautiful daughter? I could have lied, stole or committed adultery and an annulment would not have been an option. However, since I was a homosexual, that was sufficient grounds for the church to grant the annulment. With the stroke of a pen, the Catholic church deemed that our marriage never existed and as a result, my daughter is now viewed as a bastard in the eyes of that church.

I was raised Catholic and I wanted to believe, but what can I do, when a priest, an emissary of the faith, if you will, tells me that I am unworthy of being part of the church and rather than attempt to attend to my spiritual needs, he simply reaffirms the condemnation of my existence, because his church tells him so? Please enlighten me, since there is no reference to homosexuality in the bible, exactly when did gays become so reprehensible to the church?

Help me to understand how the church preaches the sanctity of every human life, yet killed thousands upon thousands of those, who would not convert. Exactly how did the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition further the role of the church in a spiritual way? Enlighten me how the church could sell "indulgences" which were to be used as a guarantee of entering heaven. Explain to me, how protecting predatory priests, who preyed upon our youth is in line with the teachings of Christ. Please tell me, if God created me, how his very own church, supposedly espousing his word, can view me, as unworthy?

I'll save you the time, you cannot. The reason you cannot, is that the church has never proven a direct connection, to the one and only God. Say what you will, but every aspect of all religions, were created by humans or in the case of some Gods, by deities, in the form of humans. There is no concrete proof that God exists and that is why it is called faith.

I have no objections with any religion or beliefs, the Catholic church included. What I do have a problem with, are leaders who espouse beliefs as having scientific merit or as the ultimate answer to any issue. To put it bluntly, I believe that such disinformation, like certain teachings of the church, is the direct cause of millions of deaths. There is so much history behind what the Pope says and politics will always have a direct influence in the church, whether you like it or not.

So yes, it does matter when the Pope says things that are contrary and untrue.

First I would like to say that the Catholic Church does not teach that your child is a bastard. I would challenge you to find me any information in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that would tell us this. That statement is just another example of how people like to take the Church out of context to justify their own actions. I am sure that anyone in the Church would believe that your child is a beautiful creation of God.

Secondly, let's take a closer look at the Church's teachings about annulment. But, let's not act like victims, but let's look at it and think that we are being turned away because we are bad people. Let's look at the teachings for what it is and let's be responsible while interpreting the teachings.

Couples can, of course, enter many different kinds of unions. They are not, however, entitled to call all of them ďmarriage.Ē They may only use the word ďmarriageĒ when their union meets the conditions and contains the elements that are demanded by their community. For the Christian community, and particularly for the Catholic Church, marriage has a certain God-given content. For Christians, there is always another witness to marriage: Christhimself. The Catholic Church believes that it can use the word ďmarriageĒonly when it is marriage as God created it,when it has the minimum of the content that God gave it. If that minimum content is not there, then the union may be called by whatever name people wish to give it, but as for the Church it is not marriage.

Precisely because the Church holds so strongly to the indissolubility of marriage, it must face the question of who is married.Since she believes that there is a content to marriage, proper Church authority can sometimes declare that people who have been through a wedding ceremony are not married.

This is the meaning of an annulment, or to speak more correctly, a declaration of nullity.A decree of nullity is a declaration that despite outward appearances and their good faith, a couple has not entered into a union which has all of the content necessary for marriage, and thus each of them remains free to get married,unless a prohibition is attached to the sentence or decree of nullity.

Thus a declaration of nullity is essentially different from a divorce.A divorce states that two people,who had been validly married, are married no longer.A declaration of nullity, on the other hand, states that because something which is necessary and indispensable for a valid marriage was missing at the time two people exchanged consent, a valid marriage has not come into existence. It is thus clear that an annulment is not a divorce,ďCatholicĒ or otherwise.

It should be underscored at this point, however, that for the most part, ecclesiastical declarations of nullity have no civil effects in the United States (and, indeed, in most countries of the world).Thus, an annulment never affects the legitimacy of the children born of the union (this is so according to both civil law and canon law); an annulment will not claim to affect either the distribution of property nor the award of the custody of the children.

OK, let's see where are we now...the Church's stance on homosexuality. How they supposively hate all of us who have Hiv. But I have found in my studies that it is the opposite of the truth. Scripture clearly describes homosexual acts as abominations. The city of Sodom (Gen 18-19) was not destroyed for its lack of hospitality to the angels of the Lord. It was destroyed for its homosexual depravity. The Church teaches that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered" (Cathechism of the Catholic Church 2357), yet the Church also calls us to embrace homosexuals with love and to encourage them to live lives of chastity. Regardless of the source of homosexual inclinations, which the Church says are "objectively disordered", the urges themselves are not sinful. For most people, these urges constitute trials which must be resisted like any other temptation. In short, the Church teaches us to hate the sin of homosexual acts, but to love the sinners who engage in those acts. For some scripture readings see Gen 19, Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, Rom 1:24, 1 Cor 6:9-10, and 1 Tim 1:10.

Indulgences were a main spark that fueled the reform. Martin Luther was right when he said that there was abuse of indulgences. The compendium to the to Catechism says:...Unfortunately the practice of indulgences has on occasion been improperly applied. This has been either through "untimely" and superfluous indulgences which humiliated the power of the keys and weakened penitential satisfaction or it has been through the collection of "unlawful profits" which blasphemously took away the good name of indulgences... (Indulgentiarum Doctrina,

There was a program to raise money for the building of St. Peter's Basilica and a plenary indulgence was offered. A donation was asked for in proportion to one's earnings, but it was possible to gain the same plenary indulgence by prayers for the project and the usual conditions (confession, & communion)...SOME of the people sent to offer the indulgence to the peasants used slogans, over-simplified examples and other techniques to speak down to the crowds to entice them to make a donation. The priest charged with overall supervision of the offer in Germany was Fr. Tetzel. Luther attacked him in the 95 Theses and that was the start of the ... revolt.

The pope (or the bishops in Germany) did not approve of the "selling of indulgences." ... there were abuses that priests and bishops did not correct and check. However, the Church has never taught that money remits temporal punishment for sin.

This 500 year old incident has become a theme that some Evangelicals pastors have repeatedly preached to their congregations about Catholics. This has caused much disdain for the Catholic Church in some Evangelical circles. One of the drawbacks of being a 2000 year old denomination is that there are incidents throughout history that people can point at and hold against the Catholic Church.

I had no part in the Inquisitions, nor has any Catholic alive today. These incidents happened during one of the most brutal times in human history, which any medieval movie will confirm. It has become a theme that some Evangelicals pastors have repeatedly preached to their congregations about Catholics.

Pope John Paul II admitted the wrong actions of the Catholic Church throughout history, including some tortures and deaths related to the medieval Inquisitions.

The criticisms we find today about the Inquisition put Catholics in a difficult position. There are incredible exaggerations floating around in the secular media and among Evangelicals, yet if a Catholic corrects the exaggerations then he is accused of making excuses for the Inquisition.

One of the drawbacks of being 2000 years old is that there are incidents throughout history that people can point at and hold against the Catholic Church. I expect that two thousand years from now, if the Evangelical Church remains (and if the Lord hasn't come back yet), there may be some shameful bits of history that people who want to criticize the Evangelical Church will be able to seize upon.

For instance, many Evangelical/Baptist Christians defended and participated in the slave trade which was responsible for thousands of beatings, tortures and deaths on slave ships. They did this with Bible in hand. The Vatican (Catholic Church) always condemned of the slave trade.

By the end of the Inquisition, the Reformation was in full swing. Martin Luther, Calvin, the Church of England, other Protestant Churches and their followers were quoting Scripture while burning witches throughout England, Scotland, America, Germany and elsewhere.

I think that I have answered all of your questions, if I have missed any let me know, my fingers are getting tired. Give me a call and we can hash this out verbally. In summary, you should know that you are loved by God and the Catholic Church does not hate you or consider your child a bastard. We must all remember that original sin was brought into this world by man and we have continued to defy God which has made us all susceptible to death. If we would have all followed God's teachings from the beginning we wouldn't be where we are today.

Pax Tecum.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:24:32 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Please you are getting boring.......When I said Us I meant those with HIV. The Church does not hate us.... I have also stated that I am not perfect and need forgiveness more than anyone. I am not here to judge anyone. I try to love everyone. I am just trying to help people with the teachings of the Church. I also have said that it is not easy to follow the teachings. Refer back to some of my post.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:21:27 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

How exactly does one go from discussing whether the use of condoms promotes the spread of AIDS to a factually dubious diatribe on the history of the Reformation?

If someone wants to believe that god and the church are somehow related ... that's all nifty and stuff. But why is it so damned important to try to convince the rest of us that the church has any interest but its own?

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

How very clever of you to change "... the Church's stance on homosexuality. How they supposively [sic] hate all of us." to "How they supposively [sic] hate all of us who have Hiv [sic]."

You, however, Rev. Mystery, are worse than boring. You are tiresome and deeply offensive to many of us. To come on this particular board and throw around such vile statements like "abominations," "homosexual depravity," "intrinsically disordered," "encourage them to live lives of chastity," "the sin of homosexual acts," etc., under the guise of trying to explain the Church's teachings is nothing less than an extreme case of passive-aggressive homophobia. I do not have the patience to refute these tired canards, which have been thoroughly debunked elsewhere by those who do. I do suggest, however, that there are other boards where your pearls of wisdom would be more than welcome.

Regarding your pathetic attempt to "explain" the Church's scandalous rigmarole about marriage and annulments, I can do no better than quote the great Voltaire: "God invented sex, but priests invented marriage."

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

To come on this particular board and throw around such vile statements like "abominations," "homosexual depravity," "intrinsically disordered," "encourage them to live lives of chastity," "the sin of homosexual acts," etc., under the guise of trying to explain the Church's teachings is nothing less than an extreme case of passive-aggressive homophobia.

Yeah, but the kicker is doing it while also claiming not to be judging anyone and full of love, then accusing others of parochial thinking and intolerance. That takes all sorts of cognitive somersaults to pull off without a razor blade at the wrist that's for sure.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how someone can claim that an adherent to christianity can possibly claim to be 'unpopular' or 'discriminated against'.... most people in the US identify as xtian. I guess I don't get it, being depraved and stuff. Quick, pray for me.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

With all due respect, your response is an insult to me and every gay person that inhabits these forums. I offer real and relevant questions, that you dismiss as simply history, deeds done by others, so the church has nothing to do with it. Please. You didn't address the pedophile priests and the churches decades long shielding and protecting of those abominations. Yet, you sit on your ivory tower and profess to tell me why your religion has the right to demonize and reduce my value as a human being.

I am done with this conversation and most importantly I am done with you. Personally, I find you no different than those who persecute anyone, for not believing as they believe. Some of your comments are so reprehensible that I cannot even respond. Not that it would matter, because you know that God has all the bases covered and your ass, if you are lucky, will receive its just reward. Although, given the true meanings of the teachings of Jesus, your just reward will most probably not be what you expect.

This is the fist time I have ever said this on this forum and if it is inappropriate, I will have to politely disagree and suggest that you leave these forums, because we face enough hatred, daily, and should not be subjected to your abuse, disguised in the cloak of faith.

I have not come to this forum to preach hate in regards to homosexuality. I never intended it to be that way. I feel that I am very tolerant and try to love everyone equally. I wanted to end this conversation in many previous posts, but kept getting challenged on the Church's teachings and felt that I had to respond. I felt that you had a serious question regarding annulment and in your words the Church calling your child a "bastard". I felt bad when I heard this and wanted to assure you that your child is not a bastard according to the Church's teachings. I felt that by providing some documentation from the Catechism it would provide you the answers that you needed. You were also eager for me to respond to your questions, so I did, in the way that the Church teaches. I also see that I failed to answer one of your last questions regarding the Church's sex scandal. There is no excuse for the behavior of those men who obtained employment as priests and failed to maintain the dignity the Church teaches regarding human sexuality. I was saddend by this scandal and pray for these men as I do for all sinners. I was also disgusted with how some of the Bishops handled these matters and felt that they should have been prosecuted. These men let the Church down and I have no explanation for their actions.

Many of you have asked me to explain the teachings of the church. I have obliged. Some of you seem to be mad at me because I try to live my life in accordance to my faith and the teachings of the Church. It is quite ironic that many of you preach tolerance, but when it comes to some people's faith some of you are willing to start threads that are very disrespectful of the Catholic Church and some of this forum members. I would have to hope that you are not naive enough to believe that everyone believes that ideology. I have never started a thread condemning anyone, nor have I started a thread condemning any group or race.

I find it very interesting that when I respond to these forums to give information regarding the Church's teachings I then am ostracized and told that I speak with hate, and that I am not being tolerant. Who truly is not being tolerant here? You can check my past posts and you will find that I have spoke out with charity and just gave you information on the teachings of the church...like it or hate it, do not kill the messenger. I belong to the Catholic Church and love the faith. I find it offensive when you attack Her. Granted you have every right to do so, but do not be mad at me when I defend Her.

I know several people on this website that are also offended when the Church is being talked about with prejudice. Many have decided not to participate due to the infighting that is seen in many forums, and the lack of respect shown by some members.

Objectively, the church speaks of sins that we all fall short of the glory of God with. Subjectively, it is up to God to judge us all according to the will of our hearts. I would not be in any place to judge any of you, and demand the same respect of you. I am working out my salvation and use the Catholic Church as my guide, and would hope that all of you would be tolerant of that.

As some of you have written you feel that I should not be a part of this forum. That is not up to you. I have not done anything wrong. I will continue to reach out to others that I may be able to help. It is a shame that some of you think that if one does not have your same ideology that they are unable to participate. I have not participated with any disrespect. Like I have mentioned before I have just answered questions that were asked, like it or hate it. I do not say that I have views of anyone in this forum that were demeaning, I just gave you the teachings of the church.

I would conclude with I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but that was not my intent. It should be understood, that I will not stand back and let anyone subject my faith to heresay without any concrete evidence of their statements demeaning the faith. We can all have charitable conversations without getting our feelings hurt. I do not want to hurt anyone's feelings. I love you all and God bless.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 01:11:32 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Mystery, it's pretty hard for you to claim that you are just a messenger when you ardently defend, analyze and philosophize. Your beliefs are your own interpretation of what you call "the church". Given that there are many churches with many belief systems, including many subsets of the catholic church, you have no leg to stand on that you are the messenger, not the message.

Sadly, whatever ethical teachings your church has gets lost in paradoxical statements like "it is not for me to judge.".... (then why say anything at all... I mean, if you weren't judging you wouldn't have to remind yourself and everyone else that there is something to judge...) or the classic "it's a mystery how god works." (no, not really, it's not a mystery at all... when you use the word 'god', it seems to be whatever you decide that you don't understand.)

Your words might not ring hollow in a community of people where a large percentage of the members haven't spent their lives listening to how they are condemned to hell for being who they are. There are lots of people here who believe in a god of some sort. They have worked through a seriously large pile of crap the church has fed them throughout their lives to come to the conclusion that god isn't at all like the god they heard about as a child. It is those decent people who have come to the conclusion that it is possible to take the ethical teaching of religion to heart and leave the mythology behind. It is those people, more than any others, whom you insult.

You are not defending the church. You are defending yourself. You are defending your own beliefs and your own convoluted understanding of what right and wrong is. If you, yourself, have chosen to be spoon fed a bunch of beliefs that offend others, then the responsibility is yours when they actually end up doing just that. Stand up for what you have chosen to believe as yours and stop blaming the church or some other tired philosophical belief system for the things that you say. You own your own words. You own your own prejudices. You own your own will. After all, it was you who pointed out that you have free will. Time to take responsiblity for your own decisions and quit whining about being just a messenger.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

I was going to conclude with my last statement and finally put this thing to bed, but I found some of your statements interesting and somewhat misinformed. First, you stated that "Mystery, it's pretty hard for you to claim that you are just a messenger when you ardently defend, analyze and philosophize. Your beliefs are your own interpretation of what you call "the church". Given that there are many churches with many belief systems, including many subsets of the catholic church, you have no leg to stand on that you are the messenger, not the message."

My response to you is that you are misinformed about the Catholic Church. The Church's teachings lies under Magisterium and that teaching alone is what I follow in my interpretation of the Catholic Church. By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : "He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10. 16). Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible. This is true even if the Church does not use the solemn ceremony of definition. The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25). It was precisely by the use of that authority that Vatican I was able to define that the Pope alone, when speaking as such and making things definitive, is also infallible. Of course this infallibility covers also teaching on what morality requires, for that is needed for salvation.

A "theologian" who would claim he needs to be able to ignore the Magisterium in order to find the truth is strangely perverse: the teaching of the Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth. Nor could he claim academic freedom lets him contradict the Church. In any field of knowledge, academic freedom belongs only to a properly qualified professor teaching in his own field. But one is not properly qualified if he does not use the correct method of working in his field, e.g., a science professor who would want to go back to medieval methods would be laughed off campus, not protected. Now in Catholic theology , the correct method is to study the sources of revelation, but then give the final word to the Church. He who does not follow that method is not a qualified Catholic theologian. Vatican II taught (Dei Verbum # 10): "The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."

You also speak that I am judging on the ethical teachings of the church. I would say that if you have read all of my posts that you would see that I have not personally judged anyone. I have just given information on the teachings of the Catholic Church and those ideas are not my own interpretations as we have seen. They are the teachings of the Magisterium. I think that I have made it quite clear in the above statement what it is meant when I say the Church's teachings. So, you are wrong when you try to convolute my statements and say that they are my own. They are not my own.The Magisterium consists of the Episcopal College and its head, the Pope. It is based on the 12 apostles. Peter and the rest of the apostles made up a single apostolic college. So in like fashion the "The Roman Pontiff," Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another." (Catechism 880). It is the teaching office of the Church. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. This is where the infallibility thing comes into play. Most often these infallible declarations happen at an ecumenical Council. There have been 21 councils since the time of Christ. This magisterium is the glue of the Church. It is what keeps us all going in the same direction theologically. It is where we turn to find out what the Church really believes about something.

In your thread you stated that "Your words might not ring hollow in a community of people where a large percentage of the members haven't spent their lives listening to how they are condemned to hell for being who they are. There are lots of people here who believe in a god of some sort. They have worked through a seriously large pile of crap the church has fed them throughout their lives to come to the conclusion that god isn't at all like the god they heard about as a child. It is those decent people who have come to the conclusion that it is possible to take the ethical teaching of religion to heart and leave the mythology behind. It is those people, more than any others, whom you insult." I have told no one that they are going to hell in my posts nor would I be in a position where I would want to tell someone that. If you were to actually study the teachings of the Church through the Catechism of the faith you may be surprised to find that the Catholic Church condemns no one to hell, nor do they call people that have children and then get divorced "bastards". I would challenge you to show me that I am in error of the teachings of the church. I would appreciate you to provide information that could help us all to not create confusion in church teachings. Like I have said, my teachings come from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Like I have noted, some theologians may take a different stance, but according to the faith, they have not been given the power to bind and loosen.

Then you stated "You are not defending the church. You are defending yourself. You are defending your own beliefs and your own convoluted understanding of what right and wrong is. If you, yourself, have chosen to be spoon fed a bunch of beliefs that offend others, then the responsibility is yours when they actually end up doing just that. Stand up for what you have chosen to believe as yours and stop blaming the church or some other tired philosophical belief system for the things that you say. You own your own words. You own your own prejudices. You own your own will. After all, it was you who pointed out that you have free will. Time to take responsibility for your own decisions and quit whining about being just a messenger." I do not know where you are getting your idea that I am defending myself. I would love for you to show me proof in any of my posts where I am defending myself. Or I would love to be enlightened by your ability and gift to read someones mind. I have not come across at all that I am trying to defend myself. My cross is as heavy or heavier than anyone's I have clearly stated that in many past posts that I am a sinner. I would have to say your statements are defending you. I am imperfect, and strive to be Christ like, and have as I have stated used these statement as my guide not my personal statements like you have assumed that I do, through some mystical power that you possess.

I do not recall what our past conversations may have been but I have come to the conclusion that you are not in agreeance of the teachings of the Magisterium. I am ok with that. But, like I have stated I did not start this conversation of intolerance toward the Catholic Church. I am just responding and defending her through the teachings of the Magisterium. Like it or hate it I am truly just a messenger and not just a person in here giving my own interpretation and as stated I would need you to show me how I have come up with my own interpretion and am in error of the Magisterium. You will not be able to do so.

Thank God that the Church is not a democracy. The early Church was not a democracy either. Democracy works well for politics but not for faith and morals because people in general want to make things easy on themselves.

Modern society thinks that the pathway of spirituality should be decided by the common people, that is why the New Age is so popular. Anybody can be a Guru and lead people down dark alleyways of Spirituality. In the New Age, everybody can believe whatever they want, can do whatever they want while still claiming to be God centred. That is part of the reason books like the Da Vinci Code that try to mix up Christianity with Gnosticism have become so popular. Gnosticism was a great heresy that was defeated in 300 A.D. but has resurfaced in the "New Age". Catholics don't believe that is Christ's way. Jesus please help us.

The Church does not exist to be evangelized by society. It exists to evangelize society.

I know that I will not gain a lot of support from a lot of the readers. But, I am not here to offend anyone either. I would just hope that anyone who responds to my posts would give more than just their personal view. And subject me from having my mind read and then putting it into words what you think that I believe. That is very unfair and lacks any substance whatsoever. It cannot be used in any intelligent exchange of information that would come out in a charitable way.

The bottom line is this, I hate no one and I have the ability to judge no ones salvation. The Church does not teach that anyone is going to hell. God bless all.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 03:32:24 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Not to mention that you spelled it wrong the first time, magisterium is not an institute in the modern sense; it's the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Many of us are not Catholic or any such Christianists as you have claimed yourself to be one, and unless you're officially part of Catholic Church's clergy as appointed you don't have the authority to represent them, but either case doesn't mean a thing to me.

So whatever you write is your views, and whatever you try to defend you defend for yourself. You can claim that you're just reflecting the Church's views, but again it's just words that you've chosen to use here, but it seems you're started to copy and paste anyway from whatever sources you're copying from.

Oh and save your "God bless all", with the authority rested on me by my ten-yr-old nephew I BLESS YOU in the name of Hello Kitty who resides in Heaven with Twinkle Little Star.

BAGHDAD (AP) ó The bodies of two gay men have been found in Baghdad's Shiite slum of Sadr City after a leading cleric repeatedly condemned homosexuality, an Iraqi police official said Saturday.

The killings come after Shiite cleric Sattar al-Battat repeatedly condemned homosexuality during recent Friday prayers, saying Islam prohibits homosexuality. Homosexual acts are punishable by up to seven years in prison in Iraq.

The two men were believed killed Thursday by relatives who were shamed by their behavior, said the official. Police said they suspected the killings were at the hands of family members because no one has claimed the bodies or called for an investigation.

The killings come weeks after Iraqi police found four bodies in late March buried near Sadr City with the words "pervert" and "puppies" written on their chests, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.

Puppy is a derogatory word used by residents in Sadr City to refer to homosexuals, the official said.

Sadr City, a slum of about two million people, is home to a large majority of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia. Al-Sadr's forces launched several uprisings against American forces since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, but fighting ended in Sadr City in May 2008.

"When the Mahdi army was in control, such practices were banned, and homosexuals were afraid of declaring their tendencies," the official said. But that's changed since the Mahdi Army militia cease fire took hold, the official said. The official said some people claim a coffee shop in Sadr City has become a hangout for gay men.

Sheik Ammar al-Saadi, a cleric at al-Sadr's office, denied any involvement by the Mahdi army in the killings. He said the Mahdi Army was only urging people to stop practicing homosexuality.

"Such people have brought shame on Sadr city people," he told The Associated Press. "The blame falls on the security forces who do little to combat this phenomenon or to stop the flow of pornography materials into Iraq."

Also Saturday, a tourism and antiquities ministry official said Iraq plans to open a museum filled with belongings of ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

Abdul-Zahra al-Talqani, the media director of Iraq's office of tourism and archaeology affairs, told The AP that the items, which include art, furniture and weapons, were being handed back to the Iraqi government by the American military.

The U.S. military had been storing weapons belonging to the late Iraqi dictator in Taji, north of Baghdad.

Al-Talqani said no site for the museum has been selected, though it could be housed in one of Saddam's palaces.

Some of the former dictator's belonging are currently stored ó but not on display ó in Baghdad's National Museum, which reopened in February after having been closed following looting in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

You just do not, or will not understand. The reason I used the word bastard in reference to my daughter is BECAUSE THAT IS THE WORD THAT THE PRIESTS USED when rushing through the annulment of my marriage. And did I mention that they had to rush it, so my ex wife could remarry in the church. Fortunately my abominable behavior gave the church an easy out. I am trying to help you to understand how I was treated by your church. The Pope did not come to my house and say anything, his emissaries, in the form of priests and bishops, did the talking instead.

I approached you in an adult fashion, asking for possible explanations and all you could do is to degrade and insult who I am, both physically and spiritually. You just do not understand. I admire your faith, but you seem unable to understand that when you adhere to the tenants of any faith, you become a believer and as you said, you cannot pick and choose, which parts of the faith to adhere to, as it is all or nothing. When you post about the church, her teachings and your belief, the church and you become one.

The Roman Catholic church believes that gay people are: "intrinsically disordered, commit the "sin of homosexual acts", resulting in "homosexual depravity" and in doing so, we become "abominations" and as such, we should "live lives of chastity". Who gave the Catholic church the right to decree that homosexuals are intrinsically disordered? And why only gay people? Meanwhile, catholic priests and their enablers have been molesting our children for decades, but they deserve our "sympathy and compassion" for being pedophiles, because at least they are not gay. And save me the "hate the sin, love the sinner" sound bite, because our sexuality is woven into us and I could no sooner become "straight" than you could change the color of your eyes.

Hypocrisy to the nth degree is what I say. I believe that there is a force greater than us, that binds reality through the laws of physics, science and humanity. I have great respect for the disciplines that produce real and verifiable information that helps us to understand all that we experience. Most of all, I believe in people and I would argue that the majority of us, all seek similar goals of living our life to its fullest while exploring the world in which we live. I believe in allowing others to live their life, as their conscience dictates, however with that freedom comes responsibility.

I believe that if there is a higher power, one that is so intrinsically linked to humanity and its workings, that they would admire and care for their creations. The fact that some come with different colored skins, features or characteristics, would only add to the worlds diversity. I also believe, because I know, that I was born gay. Sexuality is something, that is so incredibly complex, that it cannot simply be willed into being. I accept that as fact and in doing so, I understand that I am one of the children of humanity and I have a life to live.

I mentioned personal responsibility, because I am also responsible for what I believe and my words and deeds. You have faith in the Catholic Church and all of her teachings and I have no issue with you defending your faith, but I insist that you take responsibility for that faith. When you post Catholic doctrine in reply to my questions, you are expressing your own faith and beliefs. You insist that your God demands many things of his believers and it is not your choice to question those demands, if you are to maintain your faith. The same can be said of your responses.

When you reply using religious teachings, those are the teachings that you believe, because of your faith. Those teachings then reflect some of your own thoughts and beliefs. Now can you possibly understand how absolutely insulting many of your comments have been? In addition, I hold you personally responsible for the words you have written, because that is what you believe.

You insist that no one cannot question your God, his teachings, nor his will. You profess to have unswerving faith in the Catholic Church and while I admire your devotion, you cannot question the teachings of that church and so when they say how abhorrent I am, as a person, it is through your posts that I hear their words.

I would just like to say that if I offended you in any way I am very sorry that was not my intention. I am truly sorry that you had a bad experience regarding the annulment after your divorce. I am not saying that your situation is easy, we all face tough things in our lives and I will be the first to admit there have been people in the Church that have let people down and made them discouraged to the point of leaving the Church. I have had several occasions where people in the Church have made me discouraged, but I have never associated them with the teachings of the Magisterium. In your case your annulment may have been done in a fashion that was inappropriate and made you feel disenchanted with the Church, if so you have the right to those feelings and I would say that I am sorry for that. I might add not all annulments have been done in a fair fashion, I by no means am naive enough to think that. It should be noted that the Church's teachings in regards to annulments had at one point caused a separation in the Church where as King Henry broke off from the Church after the Pope would not allow him an annulment. In that particular case from history it sounds as if the Church was correct.

Once again I am sorry if you felt slighted by the Church. I can not judge your case because I am not there to review all of the material. I have a friend who was not granted an annulment who I thought should have been granted one. He was married to the nastiest woman that I have ever met. Because she had witnesses that sided for her and her mother worked for the Church he was not granted an annulment. At which point he was not able to participate in communion.

I feel that this situation is very hard, but understood that we as Christians/Catholics should all make great sacrifices and that our eternal reward is not here. My friend did get remarried, and in an objective sense he would be committing a sin, but subjectively it is up to God to be his ultimate judge and read his heart.

Objectively the Church does teach that homosexuality is a sin because it does not lead to life. Subjectively we all have reasons for doing what we do and I believe that God is our ultimate judge.

I know that a lot of the Church's teaching are not easy to follow and in some cases not easy to understand. But, the Church holds God through the teachings of Jesus Christ to the highest regard. Sometimes people become upset when they try to satisfy the individual rather than the good of the whole Church.

As I stated earlier I do not hate anyone, nor does the Church teach to hate anyone. We all have our issues. Life is a struggle and as many of us can attest to that more than others due to the illness that we all share. I find that in my life, and this may be getting off the beaten path here, but HIV has humbled me and has made me more commpassionate to others. For that I thank this disease. I am now trying to use this compassion and better understanding of humanity to help others.

Once again I would ask you all to forgive me if any of you were offended by the teachings of the Church. But I do stand by them in a compassionate way and do understand that sin is sin no matter if we understand it or not.

This forum is really not the place to be debating the Catechism of the Catholic Church. But, since I have seen that the Catholic Church in many regards was disrespected I found it hard to keep quiet. Looking back I probably should have kept my mouth shut and just prayed for everyone. In that sense that is my fault.

Killfoile I have tried to respond to you in a charitable way and found it important to do so because I felt compassion for your situation. I would encourage you to continue your walk of faith as you do and maybe some day you will find it in your heart to forgive the people in the Church that may have cause you to lack faith and understanding in the Catholic Church.

This will be my last post in regards to this subject because this rambling could lead to being uncharitable and I believe I have said all I can say. If anybody else wants to talk about the Church's teachings I would be happy for you to send me an IM and we could talk on the phone. Because quite frankly I hate to type. I would just like to thank some of the forum members who have sent me IM's supporting me.

If any of this sounds out of order or context please forgive me I took my Atripla at 11 am. God Bless you all.

It should also be noted that I am not a Theologian in respects to the Catholic Church. If you really have deep issues with the Church I would challenge anyone to study the truth rather than their prejudice. In doing so you might be surprised to find out that its not as bad as you think.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 04:56:43 PM by MYSTERY »

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Atheist don't believe in GOD, but GOD believes in them and loves them. Never let the failure of man conflict with your love of GOD.

Once again I would ask you all to forgive me if any of you were offended by the teachings of the Church.

Nope, we were just offended by your interpretation of the teachings of the church. And maybe, an inability to take responsibility for your own opinions. But, hey... to each his own. You just choose to pretend to have ethics.

As far as the church goes... (love the way you refer to it like there's only one... sort of reminds me of growing up an LDS... oh wait, there more than one... and it's ummm different.)

Anyway your church . . . . well, I'm sure you don't speak for it. You certainly don't speak for any that I would belong to. Anyway, my point is that you cannot apologize for something you cannot control. You can, however, control your own honesty. So start doing it. Maybe some of us would actually believe such an apology.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

One approach, of course, would be to explain the Catholic moral/theological position on why contraception is inherently evil. But while absolutely true, that approach isn't terribly convincing to a non-Catholic, let alone a non-Christian. After all, logic and philosophy are easily dismissed as abstractions when human life is involved.

And, why is contraception inherently evil? I've never understood the churches stance on condom use, while at the same time condoning 'natural' birth control methods like the rythym etc. Please explain.

I do not know what to say, but I think his videos would be a good advertisement for either Planned Parenthood or retroactive abortion. Maybe it's the drugs he's on, or the inbreeding, who knows. What I do know is that with his attitude, this guy is never, ever going to get married, because no women wants a cretin for a husband. I also have to wonder how he knows that anal sex hurts.