My name is Abdul Quddus and, primarily but not necessarily, I am requesting responses from Muslims. I’m writing in all sincerity and honesty. Any personal views and experiences would be appreciated. Like most reverts to Islaam, I was raised in a Judeo-Christian milieu wherein anthropomorphism and polytheism were abound in mainstream belief. As a youth, I rebelled against these innovations and preferred the standpoint of atheism. However, after discovering the Qur’aan, I became instantly captivated by the message of tawheed. Not just by the Oneness of Allaah (swt), but also the Uniqueness of Allaah (swt). I became a devout Muslim and fundamentalist. There was nothing wrong with strictly adhering to the “fundamentals” of my religion, I would boastfully remark. Eventually, a fundamental aspect of Islaam became problematic for me.

Here are my questions: How have you, as a practicing Muslim, dealt with the distinguishing characteristics of Allaah (swt) in light of Soorah al-Ikhlaas? Specifically, I’m referring to His Shin, His Eye, His Face, His Right and Left Hand, His Finger, His Foot, His Throne, etc. By far, these characteristics have been difficult to accept. Secondly, how do you approach the apparently pernicious nature of Hellfire proclaimed in the Qur’aan? If this struggle pertains to your experience, how have you coped when you confronted the questionable subject matter in your religion?

Surprisingly, the greatest obstacle to becoming a better Muslim was something within my Qur’aan. Perhaps, in all fairness, the problem is within my mind only. I still remember the day I read of The Shin in one particular ayaah. The apparent cruelty to be meted out upon disbelievers in Hellfire is quite disturbing to me. I couldn’t believe in jinn or the story of Nuh. It’s strange how just the disbelief in jinn makes one a kaafir. Devastatingly, this hasn’t only affected my ‘ibaadah but my very status as a Muslim. In 2004, I became an apostate of Islaam. Have any practicing Muslims gone through this? How did you survive? To get a more detailed account of my conversion and experience, you’re welcome to read my testimony at http://khalas.wordpress.com titled Journey Through Islam.

One would think, as a former Muslim, that I’d casually assimilate well with ex-Muslims. However, my views do not homogenize with most apostates. Basically, perhaps eighty percent of those who have left the deen fall into either atheism or Christianity. One group of ex-Muslims that I most disagree with are the Christians, probably because they have an axe to grind with Islaam. Many of them are resentful of their experiences and become hatemongering polemics. They attack Islaam as if the deen has not an atom of wholesomeness or usefulness. Even I myself cannot fathom how a proper Muslim can suddenly abandon tawheed for man-worship. Speaking as an ethical atheist, I find atheism lacking a moral compass. The atheist ex-Muslim community is far from communal. It’s lonely. Like cats, they’re far too intelligent and independent to come together and would rather choose to roam.

Many of my friends – most of whom are Muslim – claim that my understanding and knowledge needs to be corrected. If I re-revert back to Islaam, I’d most likely become an extremist pushing my fellow brothers into the masjid and campaigning for the implementation of sharee’ah in my society. It’s so cliche, I know. But if you truly believe in something, why settle for mediocrity? I’d appreciate any advice, opinion, correction, or even admonishment. I’m expressing myself to you all in hopes that someone cares to offer constructive criticism.

-------------"Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in their hearts."ť Soorah ar-Ra'd, Aayah 11

Replies: Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 10:00pm

Just as query..

In the above post you have spoken only about God and His attributes. Have you really understood concept of Prophethood in Islam?

In the above post you have expressed two doubts.

one is about attributes of Allah SW and about pernicious nature of hellfire. But I want you to explain further why its is difficult to believe in these things.

Further, I have gone thorugh yor writing at http://khalas.wordpress.com/ - http://khalas.wordpress.com/ where you have mentioned about flat earth issues. If true this was just a mistake fron Shaikh bin baaz. There is no single unequivocable verse in Quran mentioning "earth is flat" He was forced to take back his book was only to save his honour and not for the credibility of Islam itself.

Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 10:04pm

one more point..

What made you not to believe in jinn? and to reject story of Prophet Nooh AS.

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 2:13am

Originally posted by abdul-quddus

As-salaamu ‘alaykum.

wa alakum salam.

My name is Abdul Quddus and, primarily but not necessarily, I am requesting responses from Muslims. I’m writing in all sincerity and honesty. Any personal views and experiences would be appreciated. Like most reverts to Islaam, I was raised in a Judeo-Christian milieu wherein anthropomorphism and polytheism were abound in mainstream belief. As a youth, I rebelled against these innovations and preferred the standpoint of atheism. However, after discovering the Qur’aan, I became instantly captivated by the message of tawheed. Not just by the Oneness of Allaah (swt), but also the Uniqueness of Allaah (swt). I became a devout Muslim and fundamentalist. There was nothing wrong with strictly adhering to the “fundamentals” of my religion, I would boastfully remark. Eventually, a fundamental aspect of Islaam became problematic for me.

Here are my questions: How have you, as a practicing Muslim, dealt with the distinguishing characteristics of Allaah (swt) in light of Soorah al-Ikhlaas? Specifically, I’m referring to His Shin, His Eye, His Face, His Right and Left Hand, His Finger, His Foot, His Throne, etc. By far, these characteristics have been difficult to accept.

These are metaphorical.

Secondly, how do you approach the apparently pernicious nature of Hellfire proclaimed in the Qur’aan? If this struggle pertains to your experience, how have you coped when you confronted the questionable subject matter in your religion?

It seems you misunderstand Hell completely.

in Islam, all the descriptions of hell being like boiling water or fire whatever are allegorical as the Quran points out. in actual fact, the reality of hell is a place without God. that's what Hell is in Islam. all these descriptions of torture, are what it will feel like to be WITHOUT God.,

it's justness from God...atheists don't want God...so in the afterlife God does as they want and removes His presence....

let me restate the situation, just to get away from all christian aspects:God created us. in Islam, satan says we are all weaklings who don't really love Him. so God puts us on this earth to see if we love Him (for our sake not His. He's All-Knowing). then at the end of the earth, God will put all those who don't love Him and don't want Him in a place without Him. and then He will place all who want Him and Love Him in a place with Him. As soon as every atheist dies, they will be so sad that they will not have God's presence. But they will have failed the Test.

...I couldn’t believe in jinn or the story of Nuh.

The story of Noah is of a LOCAL flood in the Qur'an not a global flood in the Bible.This makes it believable.

It’s strange how just the disbelief in jinn makes one a kaafir.[/qute]

The non-believing Jinn are simply devils. What's so unbelieveable about that?

[quote] Devastatingly, this hasn’t only affected my ‘ibaadah but my very status as a Muslim. In 2004, I became an apostate of Islaam. Have any practicing Muslims gone through this? How did you survive? To get a more detailed account of my conversion and experience, you’re welcome to read my testimony at http://khalas.wordpress.com titled Journey Through Islam.

One would think, as a former Muslim, that I’d casually assimilate well with ex-Muslims. However, my views do not homogenize with most apostates. Basically, perhaps eighty percent of those who have left the deen fall into either atheism or Christianity. One group of ex-Muslims that I most disagree with are the Christians, probably because they have an axe to grind with Islaam. Many of them are resentful of their experiences and become hatemongering polemics. They attack Islaam as if the deen has not an atom of wholesomeness or usefulness. Even I myself cannot fathom how a proper Muslim can suddenly abandon tawheed for man-worship. Speaking as an ethical atheist, I find atheism lacking a moral compass. The atheist ex-Muslim community is far from communal. It’s lonely. Like cats, they’re far too intelligent and independent to come together and would rather choose to roam.

Many of my friends – most of whom are Muslim – claim that my understanding and knowledge needs to be corrected. If I re-revert back to Islaam, I’d most likely become an extremist pushing my fellow brothers into the masjid and campaigning for the implementation of sharee’ah in my society. It’s so cliche, I know. But if you truly believe in something, why settle for mediocrity? I’d appreciate any advice, opinion, correction, or even admonishment. I’m expressing myself to you all in hopes that someone cares to offer constructive criticism.

I'd love to talk to you via MSN or YAHOO or email.

Could i please have one of them?

may God bless you.

Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 2:56am

Originally posted by Idris

in Islam, all the descriptions of hell being like boiling water or fire whatever are allegorical as the Quran points out. in actual fact, the reality of hell is a place without God. that's what Hell is in Islam. all these descriptions of torture, are what it will feel like to be WITHOUT God.,

Hell is real. Quran is very clear about Hell. Its not good idea to adjust understanding of hell to win Abdul Quddus.

Posted By: shaheed
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 3:31am

Asslamu alaykum brother,

I respect your thoughts and your doubts too, in the next lines i will try to clear your confusion about some of ur doubts:

we are asked not to think a lot about Allah as having a hand .....etc like human beings, we should not think about material things about Him, cause we will not be able to know such things, all the same we are couraged to think about His almighty abilities and creatures He Has created like the Sky, Moon, Sun.....etc as a clue of His existence and almighty abilities.

as far as hell fire, Jinn, Noah: as Muslims are to submit totally to Allah, Accept Fate, Believe whatever comes from His side and we should believe that there are some things we can't perceive with our mind like Jinn, .........etc and we should believe too, that the disability of seeing or touching those things does not mean that they don't exist, we believe that there is electricity althugh we can't see or touch it., so when we believe in things inspite of our disability or perceiving with our normal minds, it means that we just accept these things as they come from God through the Prophet Mohamad. so, the real Muslim accept whatever comes from the prophet Mohamad (SAW) irespective of what that thing is.

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 3:42am

Originally posted by abuzaid

Originally posted by Idris

in Islam, all the descriptions of hell being like boiling water or fire whatever are allegorical as the Quran points out. in actual fact, the reality of hell is a place without God. that's what Hell is in Islam. all these descriptions of torture, are what it will feel like to be WITHOUT God.,

Hell is real. Quran is very clear about Hell. Its not good idea to adjust understanding of hell to win Abdul Quddus.

I never said Hell didn't exist.

I said all the descriptions of Hell are allegorical, just like all the descriptions of Paradise are allegorical:

[2:25]: Give good news to those who believe and lead a righteous life that they
will have gardens with flowing streams. When provided with a provision
of fruits therein, they will say, "This is what was provided for us
previously." Thus, they are given allegorical descriptions. They will have pure spouses therein, and they abide therein forever.

[47:15]: The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is
this: it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and
rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained
honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from
their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the
hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

47:15 clearly states that the allegory of Paradise is better than the allegory of Hell. This along with many other verses including 2:25 prove that the christian idea of hell being pure flame and fire is wrong. Hell's fire is metaphorical for the feeling of being without God's presence.

may God bless you.

Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 4:18am

According to Britannica..

Allegorical means.

1: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of allegory2: having hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text

Means something different from what is said.

Further.

I check three translation fo Quran, Shakir, Picktha and Yusuf Ali. No one have used word allegorical in either of the ayah. Which transaltion you are referring to.

Quran clearly mentions about flames in hell we don't have any authority to change its meaning.

similitude is different from allegory

Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 4:27am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I’m referring to His Shin, His Eye, His Face, His Right and Left Hand, His Finger, His Foot, His Throne,

This is a generalised way of describing his attributes [99 attributes]. His right hand depending on the context means nearness or in other contexts it means his attributes of power and justice eg Haqq just to name a few.

None of these are taken literally, have you ever come across a traditional muslim scholar who has interpreted them in such a way.

By far, these characteristics have been difficult to accept.

There have been some scholars and groups who have done this in the past but the vast majority of scholars have rejected them and in reality they are not speaking from something they know or have been taught but from there own selfs, as allah says in the Quran nothing is like him so how can his saying my foot or hand or mouth be taken literally.

Secondly, how do you approach the apparently pernicious nature of Hellfire proclaimed in the Qur’aan?

What will you do with satan when his time comes and after knowing full well what he has done to humanity. What will you do with Hitler and the countless rulers who have done the same. What of every person who has been persecuted and oppressed when will they receive justice for how they have been wronged.

What would you do to warn people away from doing wrong things, look at people now they know accept and believe in the pernicious nature hell and still behave the way they have. If hell did not exist in the hereafter then people would turn this world into hell. It serves a purpose and as punishment for those who refuse to obey Allah, he has given them ample warning and descriptions of what hell is like so they dont even think twice about how serious and horrific a place it is.

The apparent cruelty to be meted out upon disbelievers in Hellfire is quite disturbing to me.

Is disbeliefe there only crime?

I couldn’t believe in jinn or the story of Nuh. It’s strange how just the disbelief in jinn makes one a kaafir.

Its disbelief in the Quran that makes one a Kafir not disbelief in Jinn but since Allah has made there existence known in the Quran it is the same thing. If you dont have trouble believing in Satan then you should have no greater trouble believing in Jinn, the only difference being satan was from the jinn and not a fallen angel as christians believe.

I’d most likely become an extremist pushing my fellow brothers into the
masjid and campaigning for the implementation of sharee’ah in my
society.

You have to accept people with there faults otherwise your heart would become hard from being around them, just know inside your self what they do is wrong and that is least of what is expected of you.

Idris, Abuzaid is correct in what he says.

-------------Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:18am

Originally posted by Rami

Idris, Abuzaid is correct in what he says.

Well he's going to have to prove me wrong then.

Originally posted by abuzaid

According to Britannica..

Allegorical means.

1: of, relating to, or having the characteristics of allegory2: having hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text

Means something different from what is said.

I already know what allegorical is. It means the same thing as metaphorical. It's a physical metaphorical description to emphasis the spiritual.

Further.

I check three translation fo Quran, Shakir, Picktha and Yusuf Ali. No one have used word allegorical in either of the ayah. Which transaltion you are referring to.

Pickthall and Yusuf ali are very bad and old translations. I recommend you use something more modern and accurate

Quran clearly mentions about flames in hell we don't have any authority to change its meaning.

similitude is different from allegory

You're ignoring what my main point. It's metaphorical.

Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:53am

Originally posted by Idris

You're ignoring what my main point. It's metaphorical.

This is you who have to prove. I took Quran as it says and you are adding a point that this is metaphorical. Does Quran says that description of hell as mentioned in Quran is metaphorical? or you are adding something from your side and asking me to prove?

BTW, could you guide me from where did you take the translation.

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 11:59am

Originally posted by abuzaid

Originally posted by Idris

You're ignoring what my main point. It's metaphorical.

This is you who have to prove. I took Quran as it says and you are adding a point that this is metaphorical.

Don't ignore the earlier quoted verses.

Does Quran says that description of hell as mentioned in Quran is metaphorical? or you are adding something from your side and asking me to prove?

It says the the allegory of {people being in Heaven with rivers of honey or whatnot} is better than the allegory of {people in hell}.

A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah)
are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of
milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to
the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every
kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all
this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling
water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in
it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste
never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of
honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and
Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as
shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling
water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

=2>The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious - see
V.2:2) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste
and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste
never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers
of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of
fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are these) like those who
shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling
water, so that it cuts up their bowels?

A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are
promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers
of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink
delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for
them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these)
like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling
water so it rends their bowels asunder.

A description of the Garden promised to the righteous: Therein are
streams of water which corrupts not; and streams of milk of which the
taste changes not; and streams of wine, a delight to those who drink;
and streams of clarified honey. And in it they will have all kinds of
fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord. Can those who enjoy such bliss
be like those who abide in the Fire and who are given boiling water to
drink so that it tears their bowels?

The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this: it
has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of
wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They
have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are
they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink
hellish water that tears up their intestines?

This is the similitude of Paradise which the godfearing have been
promised: therein are rivers of water unstaling, rivers of milk
unchanging in flavour, and rivers of wine -- a delight to the drinkers,
rivers, too, of honey purified; and therein for them is every fruit,
and forgiveness from their Lord -- Are they as he who dwells forever in
the Fire, such as are given to drink boiling water, that tears their
bowels asunder?

The similitude of Paradise which is promised to the pious,- in it are
rivers of water without corruption, and rivers of milk, the taste
whereof changes not, and rivers of wine delicious to those who drink;
and rivers of honey clarified; and there shall they have all kinds of
fruit and forgiveness from their Lord! (Is that) like him who dwells in
the fire for aye? and who are given to drink boiling water that shall
rend their bowels asunder?

A picture of the Paradise which is promised to the God-fearing! Therein
are rivers of water, which corrupt not: rivers of milk, whose taste
changeth not: and rivers of wine, delicious to those who quaff it; And
rivers of honey clarified: and therein are all kinds of fruit for them
from their Lord! Is this like the lot of those who must dwell for ever
in the fire? and shall have draughts of boiling water forced on them
which will rend their bowels asunder?

The description of paradise, which is promised unto the pious: Therein
[are] rivers of incorruptibel water; and rivers of milk, the taste
whereof changeth not; and rivers of wine, pleasant unto those who
drink; and rivers of clarified honey: And therein shall they have
[plenty] of all [kinds] of fruits; and pardon from their Lord. [Shall
the man for whom these things are prepared, be] as he who must dwell
for ever in [hell] fire; and will have the boiling water given them to
drink, which shall burst their bowels?

Is
the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with
rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change,
and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of
strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a
forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire,
and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

All these translations say the same meaning at the beginning of each verse:"the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture"....in context these mean exactly the same thing.

may God bless you.

Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 6:35pm

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

you didnt just say it was allegorical you offered up your own explanation of what it was which is completely wrong.

We have literal description of hell in other verses and ahadith none of what you quote above says every other thing mentioned is "the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture" this is your own addition.

Most use the literal word description and some similitude:

a. One closely resembling another; a counterpart.

b. A perceptible likeness.

Which in the above simply means similar but not exact, this does not open up the way for interpretation since they are not an allegory or parable.

Alegory: a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

something cant be abstract and similar at the same time, clearly you are reading to much into this.

-------------Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:01pm

Idris,

The only person who used allegory is khalifa, and I think this is rashad khalifa who founded that group by name submitters. You know what it means?

About the metaphors.. Do you think that we can take liberty of declaring anything in Quran as metaphorical? If someone comes up and say that revelation and Prophethood is only metaphorical, would you accept it just because it makes more sense to you? or if someone declare God himself is mteaphorical and prove atheism from Quran..

What I mean is that you are proposing a principle by which anything can be made nothing.

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 2:24am

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

you didnt just say it was allegorical you offered up your own explanation of what it was which is completely wrong.

I offered a meaning of allegorical.

We have literal description of hell in other verses and ahadith none of what you quote above says every other thing mentioned is "the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture" this is your own addition.

"the allegory/the similtude/the parable/the picture" is not my own addition. I advise you to think before you write. They are in the verses. Why don't you actually check?

Once again, you don't KNOW it's literal or not in the hadith. The hadith simply say stuff like "and all the unbelievers shall burn in hell". How do you know it's literal? You don't. It could so easily be metaphorical.

Which in the above simply means similar but not exact, this does not open up the way for interpretation since they are not an allegory or parable.

Alegory: a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

something cant be abstract and similar at the same time, clearly you are reading to much into this.

Clearly, you don't even understand what allegory means.The abstract idea: "that hell is a place without God"The similitude is the pain that comes without the presence of God. "the flames of Hell".

Originally posted by abuzaid

Idris,

The only person who used allegory is khalifa, and I think this is
rashad khalifa who founded that group by name submitters. You know what
it means?

Of course i do. I spent a few weeks learning everything about Khalifa and the submitters. They are not so bad. They split in half. One group denies khalifa's absurb self-claimed messengership, the other accepts it.

However, regardless of khalifa himself, his translation is excellent. He does make the occasional slip up, and even one time inserted his own name into a verse, but his translation as a whole is one of the best i've seen.

About the metaphors.. Do you think that we can take liberty of
declaring anything in Quran as metaphorical? If someone comes up and
say that revelation and Prophethood is only metaphorical, would you
accept it just because it makes more sense to you? or if someone
declare God himself is mteaphorical and prove atheism from Quran..

You are asking when to know it's metaphorical. When the Qur'an says and when it's obvious!

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

The Qur'an actually says in this verse that "the parable/allegory is"... which means it IS a parable/allegory and so on.

may God bless you.

Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 3:21am

Originally posted by Idris

You are asking when to know it's metaphorical. When the Qur'an says and when it's obvious!

excatly, And About Hell its not obvious, this is only you or misguided rashad khalifa understood that way. Just because Hell's description is too harsh you can't declare it as metaphorical.

Originally posted by Idris

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

No, this is not metaphor. This is just how language is.. You translate this verse in any language, any sane person will understand the meaning of blind without any explanation. You don't have to go and explain to them meaning of blind. Where as about the description of hell, you (or Rahsad Khalifa) have to come up and explain it according to your understanding.

Before we go ahead let me explain..

I take understanding of Quran and Hadith from Sahabah, Tabeen and Taba Tabeen and their followers. In short I consider myself among Ahlus Sunnah. I do not accept if every other person comes with the his own explanation of Deen. If you do not agree with me, than let's start a new thread on the very basis of understanding of Deen instead of description of hell. because we will be debating on same topic with two different beliefs and this won't bring any conclusion to us.

Let Abdul Qudus continues this thread..

Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 3:53am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

Brother first rule of understanding Holy Quran is 'knowing Holy Quran through Holy Quran' which is explaining one verse through another verse from another part. Your example could easily be explained through another ayah where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that it is not the eyes that grow blind but it is the heart that is blind. This clearly makes it metaphorical. As brother has already asked you to please bring the proof from Holy Quran or sunnah that description of hell is metaphorical, not the jannah but hellfire.

However, regardless of khalifa himself, his translation is excellent. He does make the occasional slip up, and even one time inserted his own name into a verse, but his translation as a whole is one of the best i've seen.

You got to be kidding me, a person who inserts his own name in Holy Quran, i would not trust that man as far as i can throw him. Brother be very carefull of where you take your deen from.

Wassalam

-------------Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL

Posted By: superme
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 9:38pm

Originally posted by abdul-quddus

As-salaamu ‘alaykum.

Here are my questions: How have you, as a practicing Muslim, dealt with the distinguishing characteristics of Allaah (swt) in light of Soorah al-Ikhlaas? Specifically, I’m referring to His Shin, His Eye, His Face, His Right and Left Hand, His Finger, His Foot, His Throne, etc. By far, these characteristics have been difficult to accept.

Alaikumus Salaam.

The explicit Biblical description of God as a person residing in a place is the main culprit of this. This is from the NT: When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Lk 11:2

There is/are also passages in the Qur'an that almost can be taken that way - while the Khadiths is the place where anything goes.

This link will give you an idea what I believe as what God is, at least it is a good place to start. Maybe you have seen it before.

Secondly, how do you approach the apparently pernicious nature of Hellfire proclaimed in the Qur’aan? If this struggle pertains to your experience, how have you coped when you confronted the questionable subject matter in your religion?

As I am getting older my understanding of hells and heavens also change. Physical fire is only works with physical bodies, so too the physical heaven. The understanding of God as somewhere outthere with His hells and heavens also outthere create the difficulties to comprehend
them. Changing our view of what God is - is the best way to understand the Qur'an and Islam in general.

The whole existance is structured like pyramid, we start from the bottom. The most distinguished is sitting at the top - alone. It is an impossibility for the top position to be occupied by more than one sitter. This is the throne of the controller so to speak. We are commanded to work for what we deserved if we desire to do so. It is matter of who is willing to go up there.

Originally posted by

Surprisingly, the greatest obstacle to becoming a better Muslim was something within my Qur’aan. Perhaps, in all fairness, the problem is within my mind only. I still remember the day I read of The Shin in one particular ayaah. The apparent cruelty to be meted out upon disbelievers in Hellfire is quite disturbing to me.

Hells and heavens are the default of existance, they are there as part of the system. By dislike it does not make it not in existance, by liking it does not make it exist. They are just there same as our existance, part of the grand existance.

Originally posted by

I couldn’t believe in jinn or the story of Nuh.

Jinn and Jannah are interestingly sharing the same root, J and N. When Iblis as one of the JINN disobey the command to bow down to Adam, God could not punish him there and then - except by removing him from the JANNAH (state), no fire was involved there.

As for Nuh story I don't know your direction. Nuh was the first person to build a boat, and he was inspired as how to build it. The water was coming and he was told as how to survive. His son who knew nothing about the rising water did not listen to his father, the man who knew. I hope this help or at least as a thing to ponder.

Salaam

He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things. (57:3)

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:22am

Originally posted by abuzaid

Originally posted by Idris

You are asking when to know it's metaphorical. When the Qur'an says and when it's obvious!

excatly, And About Hell its not obvious, this is only you or misguided rashad khalifa understood that way. Just because Hell's description is too harsh you can't declare it as metaphorical.

Once again you ignore my arguments and points.

It's metaphorical because the Qur'an says so in the verse!

Originally posted by Idris

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

No, this is not metaphor. This is just how language is.. You translate this verse in any language, any sane person will understand the meaning of blind without any explanation. You don't have to go and explain to them meaning of blind. Where as about the description of hell, you (or Rahsad Khalifa) have to come up and explain it according to your understanding.

You are not listening and refusing to listen. You are ignoring my arguments.

The word 'blind' in the Qur'an is not literal. Yet you seem to have impaired understanding!

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to
see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No.
It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

This proves verses in the Qur'an can be metaphorical.

Before we go ahead let me explain..

I take understanding of Quran and Hadith from Sahabah, Tabeen and Taba Tabeen and their followers. In short I consider myself among Ahlus Sunnah. I do not accept if every other person comes with the his own explanation of Deen.

any knowledgeable person, whether religious or not, whether scholar or not, understands that sentences can be metaphorical. You don't get this.

The Qur'an has said that Heaven, let alone hell, is described metaphorically. Isn't this proof that Heaven, let alone hell, is metaphorically described?

If you do not agree with me, than let's start a new thread on the very basis of understanding of Deen instead of description of hell. because we will be debating on same topic with two different beliefs and this won't bring any conclusion to us.

Okay sure.

I'm not sure where we differ among our views of deen, but okay.

may God bless you

Posted By: Idris
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:32am

Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

wa alakum salam wa rahemtu Allah wa barekto

The Qur'an says people who cannot see the Truth because they refuse to see it are blind. Is the Qur'an literal? Are people really blind? No. It's metaphorical. It's like being blind.

Brother first rule of understanding Holy Quran is 'knowing Holy Quran through Holy Quran' which is explaining one verse through another verse from another part. Your example could easily be explained through another ayah where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that it is not the eyes that grow blind but it is the heart that is blind. This clearly makes it metaphorical.

First of all, you argue what being blind is metaphorical. Which i am already doing!!!

I used the example of being blind as a metaphor. To prove metaphors exist.

So why are you saying "you're wrong. it's a metaphor". ?

As brother has already asked you to please bring the proof from Holy
Quran or sunnah that description of hell is metaphorical, not the
jannah but hellfire.

Once again, this time using Yusuf Ali:47:15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in
it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste
never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of
honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and
Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as
shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling
water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

In other words, "can the Parable of paradise be compared to the parable of hell?".

Second, Heaven is allegorical (which from almost translations is undoubtable), Heaven is a place with God. Therefore, Hell which is the opposite, is a place without God.

However, regardless of khalifa himself, his translation is excellent. He does make the occasional slip up, and even one time inserted his own name into a verse, but his translation as a whole is one of the best i've seen.

You got to be kidding me, a person who inserts his own name in Holy Quran, i would not trust that man as far as i can throw him. Brother be very carefull of where you take your deen from.

Wassalam

I am not taking my deen from anywhere. I have examined khaflia's translation and used it alot, simply because it one of the best out there. I know where he's gone wrong in his translations, for example translating the arabic incorrectly so it looks the computer is predicted, which it isn't.

I would rather use an accurate translation containing one or two blasmphemies, then a translation like Pickthall's which is a very inaccurate outdated translation.

may God bless you.

Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:38am

Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem

Ok
ill put it to you in plain English you would be a kafir not to believe in
the physical punishment of jahhanam as it is part of muslim aqeedah, [84;7-13].

Not
only is it physical in nature but we also know how hot it will burn and
many other of its characteristics. Saying the only punishment they will receive is not seeing allah is like ignoring the sky when you walk
outside everyday.

You have not shown any verse which supersedes
every other verse so stop your ranting and start a new topic if you
wish to discuss this further.

-------------Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Posted By: fatima
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:54am

Bisimillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

First example i gave you was to tell you why it is a metaphore, not to say you are wrong. Your problem starts when you quote an ayah and take the meaning of your desire from it without any proof.

Once again, this time using Yusuf Ali:47:15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

In other words, "can the Parable of paradise be compared to the parable of hell?".

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not say 'parable of hell', He gives the parable of jannah and tells us that people of jannah will enjoy that bliss and then asks us to compare people of both places '(Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

Second, Heaven is allegorical (which from almost translations is undoubtable),

Yes heaven's description is somewhat metaphorical because we are told in Holy Quran that no soul can think of what is kept hidden for her. We are told that people of jannah will get whatever they desire for. In the same context if you saying that hell is metaphorical then i will agree because we are told in ahadith that fire of hell is 70 times hotter than the fire we have on earth.

Heaven is a place with God. Therefore, Hell which is the opposite, is a place without God.

But the explanations you give have no base at all, you are using one ayah which does not even mean what you implementing.

I would again have to ask you to please bring your proof from Holy Quran where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says that description of hell is metaphorical.

wassalam

-------------Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL

Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 4:16am

ibn baz may Allah have mercy on him never said that the earth was flat.

Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 4:25am

Why do u want to debate? I thought these were doubts u had. If they were, u got the explanation by the brothers and sisters here. U either accept them or leave them. What do you want?!

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 5:16am

Idris

This forum:- islam for nonmuslims is not for debating. Kindly start another thread in the appropriate forum if you wish to debate or argue.

-------------Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)

Posted By: QheQ
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 7:33am

Someone sincere please see:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9060&TPN =2

and reply to my question and indicate where I am wrong.

Posted By: amah
Date Posted: 19 April 2007 at 12:43am

Originally posted by QheQ

Someone sincere please see:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9060&amp ;TPN =2

and reply to my question and indicate where I am wrong.

Brothers have been responding there already, why do you need to bring it here?

If you wish to debate, please do not post in "islam for nonmuslims" section.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=7 - Discussions - Islam for non-MuslimsNon-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning is allowed but not debate.

-------------Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)