(EDITED BY REQUEST): /!\ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The battle of Manila is the most devastating liberation conducted by the american troops in the entire pacific theater.100,000+ civilians were killed by the american bombardment and the deliverate murder of the japanese defenders which can be compared to the barbarism of ancient times.
cornered and nowhere to hide,IJN personel and korean conscripts burns hospitals,raped women of all ages,some of them were caucasian women who were separated from their families who settled in this country.
Before the begining of the liberation,the 4000+ american civilians were liberated from the "University of santo thomas" which were held there since 1942.

Manila is considered the pearl of the orient before.The city is a testiment to european colonization.It is evident in the cities architecture,but much of the city were destroyed during the war.the only cities who suffers more during the war were Berlin,Warsaw,& Stalingrad.
but in terms of civilian casualties in this theater,the japanese suffers much dearly compared to the populace of manila...it's pretty self explanatory you know.
It's ironic that all 16,000 japs were killed and only 1,010 americans were killed during the liberation. The US strength is 35,000 troops comprised of 3 divisions.

So killing an enemy soldier, whose job is to kill you first if he can, is defined as murder? As far as cities that have suffered more, I'm sure the people of Tokyo would take offense to you not including them in your list. (Well, that, and refering to the Japanese people as "Japs")

And need I post the "ironic" numbers of non-combatants killed in Nanking vs. the number of Japanese soldiers killed there? Gimme a break.

Not to mention that your first sentence is very misleading. "The most devestating liberation in the Pacific." Pray tell how many cities did the US liberate in the Pacific? Most islands in the campaign did not contain major cities, it was mostly small villages on tiny islands.

Slickun

04-19-2006, 09:01 AM

Shame on those Americans for being so efficient in the killing of the enemy.

I demand more American losses.

horseback

04-19-2006, 09:29 AM

I suspect that kearsarge is simply not very skilled in English (especially likely if he's an American-educated native speaker). If you change the first sentence to end "...and the deliverate murder by the barbaric jap defenders", it is fairly accurate.

One of my uncles was among the first Naval officers to arrive in Manila after it was (mostly) cleared of Japanese. Like most Americans of the time, he was disgusted and horrified by Japanese treatment of civilians and Prisoners of War (he'd already seen how they fought-he'd been on the beach at Tarawa the first day).

The bitterness of the fighting in the city was solely at the choice of the Japanese command; the harbor was useless to them in view of American control of the air and seas around the Phillippine Islands, the populace was hostile, and they could have strung out the fighting longer by retreating into the jungle.

The choice was made by the Japanese to do as much damage to the city and use its civilians as hostages/cover-they weren't allowed to leave, and they would have been systematically murdered and given the Nanking treatment even had American forces been kept from entering the city.

The Americans had no option but to enter the city and eliminate the Japanese 'defenders' as quickly as possible. The destruction of Manila was entirely the fault of the Japanese.

cheers

horseback

Ruy Horta

04-19-2006, 09:43 AM

Although the wording could be different I think some people are missing the point. The point is not about the need to liberate or defeat the Japanese. But as one can at least judge by the photographs liberation may have been worse as a cure than the original decease, the occupation.

It's IRONIC to be killed by your liberators, isn't it?

I'll freely admit that this level of destruction wasn't known to me. If the numbers quoted are correct, it certainly is one of the most tragic events of WW2.

joeap

04-19-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by jatall:
So killing an enemy soldier, whose job is to kill you first if he can, is defined as murder? As far as cities that have suffered more, I'm sure the people of Tokyo would take offense to you not including them in your list. (Well, that, and refering to the Japanese people as "Japs")

And need I post the "ironic" numbers of non-combatants killed in Nanking vs. the number of Japanese soldiers killed there? Gimme a break.

Not to mention that your first sentence is very misleading. "The most devestating liberation in the Pacific." Pray tell how many cities did the US liberate in the Pacific? Most islands in the campaign did not contain major cities, it was mostly small villages on tiny islands.

Why is it when we talk about Nazi barbarism no one bats an eye or rarely mentions events like Dresden the expulsions from East Prussia, the liner Wilhelm Gustolf(or if they do they get an argument about Nazi crimes) but somehow whenever someone mentions Japanese crimes (and I agree "J*ç" is a popor choixce of words) folks seems to act as if the Asian victims of the Japanese militarists count less. Kind of a racism IMO especially as I suspect the original poster might be Filipino.

That said, a good friend of mine is Filipino, his father was in the resistance, his mother saw a domestic (father was in the government) killed in front of her to force her to say where his Dad was, after which she fled (with the 4 of her eventual 10 or so kids) into the mountains. Guess what, after the war his Dad was stationed in Tokyo as a diplomat and my friend also wnet there later to teach business english and work with the Japanese, loved his time there and all.

Don't forget yet forgive.

As for the destruction of the city, I agree the defenders are first of all to blame, sadly was oar for the course in WWII irony as Ruy Horta said. Another friend's Mom recalled Anglo-American bombing of Belgrade, then the Red Army's Katuysha bombardments in support of the Partisan liberation of the city. All were directed against the German occupiers yet many Yugoslavs were killed. Same story elsewhere in Eastern and Western Europe.

Not sure I understand the ironic number of non-combatants killed at Nanking.

jatall

04-19-2006, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by joeap:
Not sure I understand the ironic number of non-combatants killed at Nanking.

The poster stated that it was "ironic" when comparing the number of Japanese casualties to American casualties. I don't think it's ironic at all, so when I responded, I put irony in quotes. I was employing some sarcasm, albiet subtle, and perhaps too subtle for some.

I do not belittle, nor hold in lower regard the victims of Japanese war crimes, no matter what their age, race, creed, or religion. Hence the reason I mentioned Nanking in the first place.

EyeoftheChicken

04-19-2006, 11:48 AM

Is there a point to this? Here try this instead:
I'm bitter because America cancelled Beverly Hills 90210. I miss Dylan.

kearsarge007

04-19-2006, 04:10 PM

sorry for my "wrong wording" that you are refering to,i'm so sleepy when i posted this thread.
I posted this thread because i'm shocked, disqusted and surprised by the events that followed during the "Liberation" of Manila.
I know this battle existed before but i did not conduct an in-depth analysis of what have happened during that time.
I always thought of the battles in the pacific as "jungle"warfare,After reading and seeing the pictures of battle of manila,i was amaized by the cities european style architecture and it's sad to see this city end up like that.

We should have this map on IL2/PF right?

Thanks for the post(s) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz

04-19-2006, 06:33 PM

Try find and read "The Siege of Leningrad" and then add that city to your list.

What was the ratio of Japanese to Americans inside Manilla at the "Liberation"?

Wasn't it MacArthur who ran that operation? You know of what the Japanese did to the troops
who surrendered to them when they took those islands?

Look at Tokyo and many other Japanese cities but for destruction count Dresden and the other
firestormed cities of Germany as well. Then tell how Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not listed?
How many years did the attacks of those continue to take victims directly?

Really, your list is slanted.

kearsarge007

04-19-2006, 09:25 PM

If you are Gen.Mc Arthur, how will you handle the recapituation of this city?

As for me,I will bate the opponents to a certain point outside the city and bombard them with chemical or biological weapons like mustardGas, in this way,there will be no extensive damage done to the valuable"Historical Landmarks"(no dis respect).. The garissoned defenders will be smoked out of their hole....and after that,a simple process of elimination could be conductedhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Is it possible to change the topic of this thread?
I want to add some other great cities that were destroyed during the war,like Berlin

AKA_TAGERT

04-19-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by kearsarge007:
(EDITED BY REQUEST): /!\ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The battle of Manila is the most devastating liberation conducted by the american troops in the entire pacific theater.100,000+ civilians were killed by the american bombardment and the deliverate murder of the japanese defenders which can be compared to the barbarism of ancient times.
cornered and nowhere to hide,IJN personel and korean conscripts burns hospitals,raped women of all ages,some of them were caucasian women who were separated from their families who settled in this country.
Before the begining of the liberation,the 4000+ american civilians were liberated from the "University of santo thomas" which were held there since 1942.

Manila is considered the pearl of the orient before.The city is a testiment to european colonization.It is evident in the cities architecture,but much of the city were destroyed during the war.the only cities who suffers more during the war were Berlin,Warsaw,& Stalingrad.
but in terms of civilian casualties in this theater,the japanese suffers much dearly compared to the populace of manila...it's pretty self explanatory you know.
It's ironic that all 16,000 japs were killed and only 1,010 americans were killed during the liberation. The US strength is 35,000 troops comprised of 3 divisions.
Oh well.. maybe next time they will think twice before attacking us.

joeap

04-20-2006, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by jatall:

The poster stated that it was "ironic" when comparing the number of Japanese casualties to American casualties. I don't think it's ironic at all, so when I responded, I put irony in quotes. I was employing some sarcasm, albiet subtle, and perhaps too subtle for some.

I do not belittle, nor hold in lower regard the victims of Japanese war crimes, no matter what their age, race, creed, or religion. Hence the reason I mentioned Nanking in the first place.

Sorry, I posted late at night so it was too subtle for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Jumoschwanz

04-20-2006, 08:23 AM

And the most devastating liberation in the middle-east is going on right now! with far more civilian casualties than in this debacle. And now god is telling Bush to nuke Iran, gotta love the United States! If only for entertainment....too bad it is at the expense of human life and horrible suffering, and all so Billy-Bob down in the bible belt can have gas to drive his V-12 Dodge truck to the grocery store.

Jumoschwanz

norman888

04-20-2006, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
And the most devastating liberation in the middle-east is going on right now! with far more civilian casualties than in this debacle.

Tell that to the Iranians, Kuwaitis and Kurds. Just remember if Iraq was "liberated" like Manila was, there would have been >1,000,000 Iraqi casualties.

CornbreadPattie

04-20-2006, 09:47 AM

And the most devastating liberation in the middle-east is going on right now! with far more civilian casualties than in this debacle. And now god is telling Bush to nuke Iran, gotta love the United States! If only for entertainment....too bad it is at the expense of human life and horrible suffering, and all so Billy-Bob down in the bible belt can have gas to drive his V-12 Dodge truck to the grocery store.

Jumoschwanz

Yea, my country sucks. My president is a coward. We are pathetic and I will leave when I am done being a student. USA can suck it.

Brain32

04-20-2006, 09:57 AM

Shame on those Americans for being so efficient in the killing of the enemy.
Funny you say that, we had a "nice little war" about 10 years ago, we were invaded, and after inital loss of territory and soldiers got back in the game and kick their ***es heavily BUT not one bullet fell on our enemy's territory, we chased them to our borders and stopped. However later our soldiers were prosecuted by the international war crime court in Haag.
So if you are of influence in the world, then you are "efficient", if you are a small contry that simply will not let anybody fu*k around with you, then you are a war criminal...

Oh well.. maybe next time they will think twice before attacking us.
You see that's what I like about Americans, they will not let you f*ck around with them. We have a saying for that here too: "Ne bu mene nitko jebal u mojoj kuruzi".

kearsarge007

04-20-2006, 10:01 AM

US military is the modern day crusaders!
Do you think Bush has plans to invade Iran?
I think it is the right thing to do,Iran poses a great threat to that region.

I want to see a duel between Iranian F-14s and the USNs F/A-18 SuperHornets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The USN should act as if it was a game,...the hornets can only use AIM-9s and guns for fair play http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

luftluuver

04-20-2006, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Brain32:
Funny you say that, we had a "nice little war" about 10 years ago, we were invaded, and after inital loss of territory and soldiers got back in the game and kick their ***es heavily BUT not one bullet fell on our enemy's territory, we chased them to our borders and stopped. However later our soldiers were prosecuted by the international war crime court in Haag.
So if you are of influence in the world, then you are "efficient", if you are a small contry that simply will not let anybody fu*k around with you, then you are a war criminal...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oh well.. maybe next time they will think twice before attacking us.
You see that's what I like about Americans, they will not let you f*ck around with them. We have a saying for that here too: "Ne bu mene nitko jebal u mojoj kuruzi". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Was that the Balkans Butcher Shop?