I think that's still misrepresenting science. To say something does not exist assumes all possible knowledge to deny it exists anywhere in the Universe and beyond. At worst, science is silent on the matter. What is really being implied here is the Aristotelian philosophy of observation and how we can come to know truth through the natural world and the five senses, upon which modern science is based. There's a lot of credit to that philosophy, but it does not and cannot address all things in existence. Love, intelligence, sentience, etc., are all outside the realm of science. We may measure patterns of behavior by which these things manifest themselves, but never do we observe the thing itself. Does love, intelligence, and sentience not exist, then? If we take your misrepresentation of science to be accurate, then they must not exist, as they cannot be directly observed in and of themselves. I do not think that's what science is, however. Science describes what is observed; it is silent on matters unobserved, neither confirming nor denying their existence. To go beyond that is to enter the realm of philosophy, which many people here have done unknowingly.

Intelligence, love and other emotions, can be felt and are basic interactions between humans, and thus they can manifest themselves in some way. Things that cannot be manifested, do not exist in scientifical view. Science lives in a moment, and only says something exist when that something can be manifested. But like I said, science does not say that something will never exist, only that it does not exist right now.

I guess the spirit realm is the closest thing. I mean the different races and classes have different ideas about it. The night elves seemed to have a more pagan/naturalistic explanation, while humans such as paladins turn into spirits, such as Arthas' father. So people seem to hang around somewhere.

Intelligence, love and other emotions, can be felt and are basic interactions between humans, and thus they can manifest themselves in some way. Things that cannot be manifested, do not exist in scientifical view. Science lives in a moment, and only says something exist when that something can be manifested. But like I said, science does not say that something will never exist, only that it does not exist right now.

But again, they aren't observed in and of themselves, and that's what modern science is strictly concerned with, yes? Direct observation? I'm not denying there can be credible inferences made based on observation, but if we're to allow that into the realm of what constitutes "science," then that would also include such fields as intelligent design, yes? That is, the idea that we can look at something and through observation, infer something that we cannot or did not observe?

I think we're stuck on semantics where you say that something exists only when observed by science, as if its existence was contingent upon scientists observing it. That's just bad philosophy, though I suspect that's not what you mean, only that observation is the prerequisite for "officially being recognized as existing" by science.

Yeah, thats what I meant by saying that science does not say that something will never exist. Its like blind person, who has cup of tea in front of him. For that blind person the cup of tea does not exist unless he can hear it.

I see you guys are ignorant and not smart, but yeah... I'm pretty sure you know much more about after-live experiences and you have very accurate sources.
Good to know.

Since they are ignorant, I suppose you are the one claiming you know much about your afterdeath travels. Calling people that did not make it safe "ignorant and not smart" isn't really polite especially when they did not mean to hurt your believes at all and weren't criticising anyone.
As for the sources, even though I don't know much enough to defend their point, I suppose the brain that fuel every single thought depends on chemical and electric process which means that turning it off disable any will. Except if some... Thing... Would actually be able to "produce" a matter and/or some feelings. Whatever, this simply looks impossible to us "ignorant and not smart" people but feel free to enlighten us ! I'd really be interested, seriously, even though I doubt your theories are also serious due to your agressivity and disrespect.

In Warcraft, it is different since magic is much more present hence the possibility for some souls (I'd say the most powerful ones only but have no clue about it though) to go somewhere else and it seems several places have already be named.

I guess the spirit realm is the closest thing. I mean the different races and classes have different ideas about it. The night elves seemed to have a more pagan/naturalistic explanation, while humans such as paladins turn into spirits, such as Arthas' father. So people seem to hang around somewhere.

Well Terenas' spirit was directly tied to Frostmourne and seemed to just dissipate shortly after its destruction.

Likewise any other "Ghosts" or "Spirits" we seem to be able to stab to death without too much trouble, so I think the definition of a spirit is a bit different in WoW anyway.

WoW Theology has always been very purposefully away from God. Even the Paladins follow the Light and seem to aim to end up at one with it, which always sounded more like they would dissipate with it becoming one, rather than going off to a heaven. The only thing near is the "paradise" mentioned by Adal, but as he's a floating energy crystal with no limbs his idea of paradise could be quite different from anyone elses.

Likewise there's never been mention of Hell, only hellish realms of demons and such. The only reference being Sylvanas and, given the circumstances, we can just say she was having a delusion in a catatonic state at the time.

Like it or not, most of the inhabitants of Azeroth were made up of clay or metal or whatever the titans found lying round at the time. Whether God created us or not in the real world, in WoW a lot of the races are just titan creations and there seems no real evidence pointing towards a Christian style heaven or hell.

But again, they aren't observed in and of themselves, and that's what modern science is strictly concerned with, yes? Direct observation? I'm not denying there can be credible inferences made based on observation, but if we're to allow that into the realm of what constitutes "science," then that would also include such fields as intelligent design, yes? That is, the idea that we can look at something and through observation, infer something that we cannot or did not observe?.

Infering from observation is a credible way to produce a theory. But in matters of faith it's mostly irrelevant. Science examines the material world. Most religions are about what is beyond this world, not just, or at all, in a physical manner; but a beyond-this-world's-elements way. That is why for example some religions present their deities not as what they are but what they are not: not-born, indestructible, infinite in power, not-confined, not-built, without beginning, etc; to showcase the different level of existence. And that is why religions have very little to do with natural sciences: they are not about examining this world, but a potential other world. And that is why they rely on faith; and faith is what you do when you think of something but can't prove it, it's trust not observation.

Originally Posted by Verdugo

Blizz imo fucked it up by implying there is such thing as paradise.

Why? Isn't the notion that there is a place where the rigtheouss people go to when they die, regardless of race, judged only by their intents: what is in their hearts, a good thing? I would hate to think that all those good characters, tragically lost or not, just became worm-food.

Well Terenas' spirit was directly tied to Frostmourne and seemed to just dissipate shortly after its destruction.

Likewise any other "Ghosts" or "Spirits" we seem to be able to stab to death without too much trouble, so I think the definition of a spirit is a bit different in WoW anyway.

WoW Theology has always been very purposefully away from God. Even the Paladins follow the Light and seem to aim to end up at one with it, which always sounded more like they would dissipate with it becoming one, rather than going off to a heaven. The only thing near is the "paradise" mentioned by Adal, but as he's a floating energy crystal with no limbs his idea of paradise could be quite different from anyone elses.

Likewise there's never been mention of Hell, only hellish realms of demons and such. The only reference being Sylvanas and, given the circumstances, we can just say she was having a delusion in a catatonic state at the time.

Like it or not, most of the inhabitants of Azeroth were made up of clay or metal or whatever the titans found lying round at the time. Whether God created us or not in the real world, in WoW a lot of the races are just titan creations and there seems no real evidence pointing towards a Christian style heaven or hell.

Well we don't need it to be christian style. Remember that, for example, the greeks had mount Olympus and Hades (I forget where they went when they died other than Hades). The world of warcraft theology has always incorporated many different views from the azerothian races, but in the grand scheme of the universe it is ultimately ruled by a Pantheon (of the Titans) with Naturalistic Old Gods mixed in (not sure what the analogy would be for this). The story of sargeras is interestingly more christian (a sort of angel, fallen and turned to evil leading his own forces to corrupt worlds). I guess this doesn't really point to a heaven.

There does seem to be a real soul in warcraft though, which indicates the possibility of just hanging around, outside the mortal plane. "Even those who had drank the blood of Mannoroth (willingly or otherwise) found that the curse had lifted, and that their souls were free from the shackles of demonic corruption. With that knowledge, Grom Hellscream left the mortal plane a redeemed spirit. " Although you can use magic to work around this...So all in all I don't think there is the "end-all" heaven we know colloquially, it's more than the entire universe itself is magical and that the power of this magic is more anarchic (my mind goes to LOTR for some reason), rather than being dolled out via some kind of king or dictator in reward for spiritual acts/services.

But again, they aren't observed in and of themselves, and that's what modern science is strictly concerned with, yes? Direct observation? I'm not denying there can be credible inferences made based on observation, but if we're to allow that into the realm of what constitutes "science," then that would also include such fields as intelligent design, yes? That is, the idea that we can look at something and through observation, infer something that we cannot or did not observe?

I think we're stuck on semantics where you say that something exists only when observed by science, as if its existence was contingent upon scientists observing it. That's just bad philosophy, though I suspect that's not what you mean, only that observation is the prerequisite for "officially being recognized as existing" by science.

So far I've loved everything you've said... And you said it better than I could.

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Originally Posted by Drithien

Infering from observation is a credible way to produce a theory. But in matters of faith it's mostly irrelevant. Science examines the material world. Most religions are about what is beyond this world, not just, or at all, in a physical manner; but a beyond-this-world's-elements way. That is why for example some religions present their deities not as what they are but what they are not: not-born, indestructible, infinite in power, not-confined, not-built, without beginning, etc; to showcase the different level of existence. And that is why religions have very little to do with natural sciences: they are not about examining this world, but a potential other world. And that is why they rely on faith; and faith is what you do when you think of something but can't prove it, it's trust not observation.

I don't want to go off topic. So this will be short. I'm glad I don't believe in a non-physical entity. And what I believe is a "have" not a have not.

OT: I see this going very bad. There are so many emotions regarding any type of after life, even in games. Why? Because so many people on these forums don't want to talk about what they don't know or understand. There really aren't any fence sitters.

There is massive precedence for this game having an after life. Where each follower of whatever deity they follow gives them some form of peace (or hell) after their life ends. And I think it's very cool.