Time to Procure a Valkyrie

I dunno. As a potential buyer for these toys, who's one gonna listen to? I mean, Veef may be a "lover" (and I see absolutely no problem with that), but even HE seems to be experiencing serious problems with his $200+ toys.

Y'know, it'd be interesting to see the ACTUAL failure rates of these toys over the course of, say, two years under "normal" handling. Anyway, I'd feel a LOT better about a purchase if I knew there was some kind of warranty behind the toy that protected me from getting a lemon. But then again, it seems like these materials deteriorate over time...so I guess that's out...

...

Anyway, I don't know if I'm "in the market", but if these toys can be disassembled easily enough, it shouldn't be that big a deal to model replacement parts in CAD for the crumble-prone ones. A little polyamide printing from Shapeways...and you'll have yourself nigh-indestructible parts.

Seriously: I handed my buddy a small disc about 1-1/2" in diameter that was printed in polyamide. It's just shy of 2.5mm thick. I asked him to try to break it with his bare hands...he couldn't. This shit don't fuck around. If these toys only need a few simple bits, replacements should be trivial...

Sanjeev Wrote:
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> I dunno. As a potential buyer for these toys,
> who's one gonna listen to? I mean, Veef may be a
> "lover" (and I see absolutely no problem with
> that), but even HE seems to be experiencing
> serious problems with his $200+ toys.

Only that VF-25 really.

Everything else is peachy keen.

Love doesn't not strengthen plastic, sadly.

>Anyway, I'd feel a LOT better about a purchase if I knew there was some kind of warranty behind the toy that protected me from getting a lemon

You mean like how they give free replacements parts in Japan. Or how most retailers let you return a defective toy.

HLJ once shipped be the entire torso of that huge CM's VR Maxima one time.

> You mean like how they give free replacements
> parts in Japan. Or how most retailers let you
> return a defective toy.

Nah. Those are nice--don't get me wrong. But a manufacturer's warranty would probably offer a lot more peace of mind. That would cover folks outside of Japan who got the item from eBay or some other source like that. The owner could "register" the item...just like with a lot of consumer electronics.

Yeah, I know it's a total pipe dream...but, hey, they are charging consumer electronics prices nowadays!

Sanjeev Wrote:
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> I dunno. As a potential buyer for these toys,
> who's one gonna listen to? I mean, Veef may be a
> "lover" (and I see absolutely no problem with
> that), but even HE seems to be experiencing
> serious problems with his $200+ toys.
>

Hey, none of my VF-25's have the apparently "common" problem of paint rubbing off by a mere touch of a fingertip as reported on MW (nor do my VF-27 and Monster Destroid...). No upside down logos and too stiff/loose joints either.

Prometheum5 Wrote:
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> It's true, it's all he talks about.
>
> Also, dude, relax. They're toys, and the people
> with problems are always louder than the people
> without. Otherwise, you get labeled a 'lover'
> like Veef.

WHAT!?!? RELAX!?!?

Dude, "toy insurance?" I get kind of absurd when I am generally annoyed or even uppity, but not that absurd.

Anyway, on the subject of the insurance I mentioned; since when has the reality of something been required to sell a product anyway? ...all a potential purchaser of said insurance needs is to believe the vocal naysayers and they have a semi-decent chance at buying it. Or are you saying that there is in fact truth in advertising?

That being said, couldn't a lot of this actually be due to the plastics that these toy manufacturers are even allowed to use? I seem to remember reading somewhere (probably here) that the plastics generally used have to degrade faster than the plastics used in say, an old Takatoku VF or whatnot. It still makes me a little wary at $2-300 bucks a pop though.

P.S. 'Jeeves, I was actually referring to those sheisty 3rd party warranties that they try to sell at car dealerships... :p A factory warranty would be nice though. I like your DIY idea better anyway.

Aw, CRAP. Those are basically the same plastic as old MSIA joints, and I've only had an MSIA hinge break like once ever. My Offshoot Sutherland was just fine... I pulled it back out the other day and it seems intact as ever.

Man, this sucks. If I ever track down an Offshoot Glasgow I'm going to have to cross my fingers, light incense and pray.

thomas Wrote:
> So my Ozma is not completely worthless due to being
> inaccurate AND prone to shattering due to *air*
> surrounding it?

Actually, the root of the VF-25 toy's weakness is that it is made out of plastic.

Hey, does anyone know what the oldest extant manufactured plastic goods are? How are they holding up? Probably something from the early 20th century, like bakelite?

Sanjeev Wrote:
> Y'know, it'd be interesting to see the ACTUAL
> failure rates of these toys over the course of,
> say, two years under "normal" handling.

One could probably organize such a survey with a useful sample size on Macrossworld - and it would be a noble effort, and enlightening one way or the other - but the trick would be standardizing the results. Even assuming that no one is biased, no one has a personal interest in talking up or downplaying the problems, you'd need to write some set of clear-cut and understandable guidelines for what "normal handling" is and how to detect breakage. You can't really count on each fan to report how much they play with the toy and how roughly they handle it on the same objective scale. Likewise, some fans may report their toy as unbroken as long as it transforms okay and nothing is falling off - some of the cracks that Veef shows us above are serious, as they indicate that eventually these parts will destroy themseoves, but a Valkyrie's owner might not notice these cracks unless he is carefully inspecting his toy for signs of damage.

Warrhead Wrote:
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>I seem to
> remember reading somewhere (probably here) that
> the plastics generally used have to degrade faster
> than the plastics used in say, an old Takatoku VF
> or whatnot.

Brenton is correct: as people (read: "public health activists") become more and more aware of how detrimental most plastics are to human health, the more and more stringent regulations become on what plasticizers can be used (as they are the first and foremost carcinogens to leech from plastics). So, yeah, most plastics from the 80's will take far longer to biodegrade than modern stuff.

VF5SS Wrote:
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> A Takatoku is also kinda big and relatively
> simple. I'm sure that helps.
>
> If they did it up like how Kawamori designed the
> VF-1 maybe it would have lasted as long as all
> those Gerwalk Ishkicks from Orguss.

But see, the pics you showed of that broke-dick VF-25's joints don't look all that less robust than the old Taka's, which is what made me think about different plastic grades, and whatnot. 'Course, I don't have one handy anymore, and that was only a pic, but weren't these supposed to be the new "Chunky Monkey" VF?

As for the Ishkicks and Drifands from Orguss (I think you're referring to the 1/60 scale ones,) I wish you were right; the plastics for those are thin and brittle, as mine and many other collectors' 1/60's can attest to. The 1/40's are built like a brick shit-house though.

> But see, the pics you showed of that broke-dick
> VF-25's joints don't look all that less robust
> than the old Taka's, which is what made me think
> about different plastic grades, and whatnot.

Well a Takatoku has like four regular hinges. All made of metal and fairly large. You may be on to something about plastic grades at least in terms of color since the problem seems to only be with the shiny gray Ozma type. Also I think the MWers were talking about the paint chipping and the tampos rubbing off which they certainly do.

> 'Course, I don't have one handy anymore, and that
> was only a pic, but weren't these supposed to be
> the new "Chunky Monkey" VF?

Only because Bandai decided to jump back into Macross toys with both gerwalk joints retracted. It's just not a good figure even compared to their own products. My GFFM Zeta Plus never had these kinds of flaws and oversights so I don't know what happened. Even previous SOCs weren't this bad. They knew they messed up since they fixed practically everything on the VF-27 save for maybe the loose shoulders.

Let's not even talk about VF100 and VF Highly Lo Metal. Like really guys. I know you make tons of lines that die out real fast like those Twist Action Kamen Riders but still.

>
> As for the Ishkicks and Drifands from Orguss (I
> think you're referring to the 1/60 scale ones,) I
> wish you were right; the plastics for those are
> thin and brittle, as mine and many other
> collectors' 1/60's can attest to. The 1/40's are
> built like a brick shit-house though.

VF5SS Wrote:
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> Warrhead Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > VF5SS Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
>
> > But see, the pics you showed of that broke-dick
> > VF-25's joints don't look all that less robust
> > than the old Taka's, which is what made me
> think
> > about different plastic grades, and whatnot.
>
> Well a Takatoku has like four regular hinges. All
> made of metal and fairly large.

Hmmm, I was thinking specifically of the old VF-1's shoulder joints that moved 'em from shoulder position toward the center of the toy during TF. I seem to remember them as being plastic, and their little pegs being pretty damn strong, but I don't have any more of those either, so I can't check.

> > As for the Ishkicks and Drifands from Orguss (I
> > think you're referring to the 1/60 scale ones,)
> I
> > wish you were right; the plastics for those are
> > thin and brittle, as mine and many other
> > collectors' 1/60's can attest to. The 1/40's
> are
> > built like a brick shit-house though.
>
> but old toys never break

Sanjeev Wrote:
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> Y'know, it'd be interesting to see the ACTUAL
> failure rates of these toys over the course of,
> say, two years under "normal" handling.

It's called "Wait 5 or so years to see who breaks what, before you commit to buy new shwag."

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing to be the first kid on the block to get the cool new toys; certainly that's what helps keep the new products flowing, but for myself, I think it's gonna' be my new policy to see what breaks and how well stuff weathers before I swoop stuff up through the secondary market.

> Hmmm, I was thinking specifically of the old
> VF-1's shoulder joints that moved 'em from
> shoulder position toward the center of the toy
> during TF. I seem to remember them as being
> plastic, and their little pegs being pretty damn
> strong, but I don't have any more of those either,
> so I can't check.

Regardless of plastic grades or whatnot, stuff like the TT shoulder bars being metal more clearly demonstrates where the ball was dropped on the VF-25. It's not that the mechanical object of the first VF-25 DX is that flawed, it's that the execution wasn't thought out. If all the right bits had been structural diecast, and none of the joints floppy, it would have been a perfectly acceptable valk, albeit more toyetic than a Yamato. Barring flawed diecast hip bars, it appears that is exactly what the Renewal 25 sets out to be. In either case, I don't think we need to cast off the yoke of modern valkyrie tyranny.

Werd. Diecast metal is used so often in modern toys as a selling point (presumably to give an impression of sturdiness,) but so frequently it's used in big chunks positioned at extremities, effectively adding more weight and stress to joints, only to have said joints be made of plastic. Those Studio Nue Powered Armors did an excellent job of fucking that up.

Warrhead Wrote:
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> metal
>
> Yeah, now I remember: even the Joon's had metal
> there. I've never owned the Bandai Super VF-1S
> reissue from the 90's that removed a lot of the
> metal parts, so maybe those're a different story?

Warrhead Wrote:
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> Werd. Diecast metal is used so often in modern
> toys as a selling point (presumably to give an
> impression of sturdiness,) but so frequently it's
> used in big chunks positioned at extremities,
> effectively adding more weight and stress to
> joints, only to have said joints be made of
> plastic. Those Studio Nue Powered Armors did an
> excellent job of fucking that up.

Eh, most toys don't to that to any detrimental extreme. A Max Gokin or SOC is usually designed to just stand or have both legs planted on the ground so the weight on the joints is supported throughout.

Even the toy in question, the VF-25 doesn't do that. The only significant metal bits are in the legs. The intakes, hip joints, and ankles are metal. Now the hinge the groin plate is on is indeed plastic, but that's a pretty substantial joint. My biggest gripe (well besides the toy doing what it did) was how the hips were structured. So it's a metal ball joint with the two metal halves of the intake sandwiched around it with a tiny pea-sized bit of rough polycap style material thrown in just on one side to add tension. Really guys?

Prometheum5 Wrote:
> If all the right bits had been structural diecast,

You know where Bandai always used to do that right? On freakin' sentai toys. Look at Timeranger and Gaoranger... A fair amount of metal, but not for metal's sake - always to make the toys essentially unbreakable.

Been a while since I handled that shiny turd as well, which is why I didn't use it as an example. Anyway, I don't see how not having metal in the arms changes the fact that metal should probably have been used on that joint... if anything the lack thereof sort of makes that worse, doesn't it?

...Come to think of it, there is a hinge on the old 1/55's that is plastic, and is a known breakage point (although you don't see it very often:) The hoop that holds the wing to the fueslage. Although, you pretty much have to try to break it, I have seen a few with that hoop broken. ...now I can't remember why I care though :P

VF5SS Wrote:
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> Yeah the wings on the 1/55 are pretty chintzy.
> They're so small and out of place too. They needed
> to be like giant Danguard Ace wings.

I wasn't sayin' THAT, just, sayin'. (I feel like if I had a 1/55 right now I'd be placating it: "He didn't mean it. Your wings aren't too small, they're... a good size.")