because the franchise agreements specify which suppliers and items may be purchased and served. The franchisee has no latitude in buying from an unapproved source and adding to the menu.

In the past McD tested hot dogs (and pizza) in several areas of the country and found it not to be a match for their business plan.

McD wants the traveling US customer to get the same taste in every location. If a NYer who is used to an all beef garlic spiced hot dog was served a red color all pork mild dog in New Orleans, the Nyer would be very unhappy.. The chains want no surprises, bland uniformity rules....

McD wants the traveling US customer to get the same taste in every location.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't McDonald's offer regional specialties......e.g., Lobster Rolls in New England and Southern Style Chicken Biscuit /Biscuits with Gravy in the South? In Hawaii, you can get Spam, Portuguese, Eggs and rice with a side of Pineapple.

"so what's your point?' we are not talking about a regional specialty available in a limited area, but a basic nationwide menu item.

The lobster roll will taste exactly the same in every location that sells it. That's the problem with hot dogs. There can not be a differnt McD hot dog served in different areas of the USA, they'd have to be the same in every location.

"There can not be a different McD hot dog served in different areas of the USA, they'd have to be the same in every location."

Why? If they can serve lobster rolls in New England and biscuits & gravy in the south, then why not xxx type of hot dog in the NYC area, xxx type of hot dog in the midwest, and so on?

Plus, other posters have cited chains that serve hot dogs: DQ, Friendly's, Five Guys, etc. Yes, I know McD's tried hot dogs, etc. But they are not the only game in town (though they would like you to think so).

My point is you asserted that the menu has to be the same Nationwide and it's not. You made no mention of a BASIC menu, or noting distinctions for any regional exceptions.

As ttoommyy notes below., there could be regional hot dogs served if they wanted to do so....in fact, if McD's wanted to serve ONE brand.or type of hot dog nationally, all they would need to do is contract out to have it shipped to their approved Distributors and they would ship it out to their locations nationwide .....or all over the world for that matter.

The reason why McD's doesn't sell hot dogs is they do not want to at this time. If they wanted to, I'm pretty sure they could figure out a an efficient way to supply them. serve them.... and implement the equipment and training necessary to do so to their standards.

My point is that I NEVER asserted that the menu has to be the same nationwide. I stated that 'big chains want uniformity of product throughout the whole country'That is if McD sells an item called a Big Mac, it should be the same( not cost the same) at all USA locations.

My point is...You say it can't be done and I say it can. Nobody is twisting anything here. .....they could easily have a uniform product in any hot dog, if they wanted to serve one, just like their burger and your position that they would have to serve a regional preference for a style of hot dog would otherwise disappoint is mistaken on more than a few points, such as.

They could contract out for one specific recipe hot dog and implement it nationwide

They could contract out and serve a regionally preferred style hot dogs and implement them regionally or nationwide...just as Sonic does.

US travelers actually do like to taste regional cuisines and menu offerings

It's been documented in food media that the reasons why McD's offers the regional exceptions is due to the fact they do not want the local customer to pass them up in favor of any group of potential customers, has one in the group, who wants to have a Lobster Roll or Chicken Biscuit at a competing food business in the same area.....

The taste consistency is per item, not per menu or store. Having a menu be different from one McDonald's store to another is entirely different from having the same menu item taste one way at one store and another way at another store.

They want the items to taste the same from store to store to store. They could offer the same hotdog nationally, but apparently they don't think it would work because hot dog preferences are a regional thing. McDonald's isn't in the habit of leaving easy money on the table.

No one is arguing the point that consistency of any one product or menu item as the basic concept chains try to achieve. The taste factor has to do with what is available regionally. as opposed to nationally as the exceptions.

Since I live in the New York Metropolitan area, the taste of the South in the form of a Southern Style Chicken Biscuit or Biscuits with Gravy.....or the taste of Lobster and New England in the form of a Lobster Roll is not available to customers outside of those respective regions.

As for the hot dog having regional preferences, that's true, but it does not mean someone would not order a quality hot dog of a different style if available. I've had hot dogs all over the country....I've only been disappointed if they were a cheap crappy dog overwhelmed by the roll or toppings.

Okay, so here's the argument here in a nut shell. BTW, everyone is right. The problem with "Hotdog" is, as BM points out, that to go nation wide there's too much regionality. The counter argument that regions have variations is also valid however no one in NE is gonna confuse Biscuits and Gravy in NO for a Lobster Roll. So you'd have to do dogs regionally and mark them as such.The point that McD's isn't selling dogs simply because they don't want to is also valid. They could market them regionally but choose not to. Heck, they could roll out a nation wide campaign around 4th of July for regional dogs and entice people to visit different area and try different variations.

One of the most important factors for most chains is product uniformity. McDonalds wants the food you get in Salt Lake City to be the exact same as in Miami. They want people to know, before they go in, exactly what their food will be like.

I think a skinless all-beef hotdog would suffice nationwide. I believe there isn't enough nationwide demand for hotdogs at McDonald's and in those areas where hotdogs are consumed there are enough hotdog stands/restaurants already in place such as Chicago, New Jersey/New York and other places. I actually wish there were more hotdog places in the Twin Cities but I do not desire whatever kind of hotdog the fast food places would come up with.

Hot dogs don't necessarilly hold as well as burgers and there will be waste.

Wendy's came up with Chili as a way to use burgers that sat to long to serve.Burger King cooks their burgers, puts them in a holding drawer and then microwaves your sandwich. Can you imagine how rubbery a microwaved hot dog would be???McD cooks on a flat top and hold in plastic warming drawers that have steam. It's one thing to steam or boil hot dogs, but you wouldn't grill them and them steam them. Major Hot dog opearations such as Nathan's keep the dogs on the flat top until served. This would take much too much room in McDs.

Here in southern CT we have a regiobal fast food chain called Duchess. They serve burgers and a lot of hot dogs. BUT the dogs are on a separate flat top and are there all day from breakfast through closing. During lunch and dinner hours the hot dog cook is not the burger or sandwich cook.

ever notice how long it takes to heat the dogs on the roller grill? They are never hot when served. I was in a 7-11 Tuesday and the local health inspector did a temperature test on the dogs and shut the grill down.

Could you imagine a high volume fast food burger chain trying to produce hot dogs on a roller grill? They'd need a 20 foot grill to handle lunch or dinner volume.

Ben's Chili Bowl in DC has been selling millions of dogs and halfsmokes since the 1950s, all on a 3'x3' grill. If a high volume chaine wanted to sell them and thought they could clear a decent profit, they would do it. I don't think they can, personally. Yet places like Wendys blow millions on freaking bun toasters to make their nasty buns taste worse.

But they COULD cook the dogs on the flattop and keep them on a roller as a kind of "heat lamp" prior to purchase. It's all a moot point anyway, since I just don't see the demand. On the other hand, I'd prefer a decent natural casing hotdog to yet another halfassed "reimagining" of their core burger product. Just give me a decent, consistent, quality Shake Shack burger and I'm more than happy to pay a couple bucks more. Making a burger with chilis and cheese mixed into the meat? If I'd wanted meatloaf, I'd go to TGI McMeatloaf's.

You know what would cook a hotdog even quicker? Deep fryer. I think after years of county fairs and deepfried Snickers/funnelcake/butter, America is ready for fastfood Jersey rippers. Yum Foods, please make this happen.

Deep fried hot dogs are around... this is actually a good idea as a restaurant may be able to use existing cooking equipment. I have seen hotdogs wrapped in bacon and deep fried.. this is an item the fast food chains could run as a special, as they could probably charge a decent amount for it.

Given the way burger chains keep tinkering with the basic burger formula (mixing chilis and cheese in with the burger) I'm suprised they haven't offered a burger with bacon mixed in with the meat. Or serve burger flavored bacon on top.

This presents a legal problem in some jurisdictions. Here in Connecticut an item sold as a hamburger may not contain anything except 100% ground beef, no additives, no extenders. Technically, a restaurant would sprinkle spice on the poutside when cooking, but not blend it in the meat mixture before forming the patties.

Really? I get the point of the regulation (to avoid having a bunch 'o crap added into your burger and passing it off as meat) but it seems a bit overly restrictive to me. (Oh, the joys of lawmaking!)

So, can they create a patty of meat and other items and label it as something else? For example, is the word "burger" ok to use, or would that also get them in trouble? I'm thinking a mixture of ground beef, feta, onions, and seasonings, and calling it a 'Greek-style burger?"

They can top it with feta, onions and seasoning and call it a Greek Burger, but can't mix it in and call it a burger. It took years for the term Turkey burger to be allowed.This is to ensure the consumer gets what is ordered, not something full of extenders or other meat than beef.1/4 lb hamburger has to have 1/4 lb of beef before cooking, not 1/5 lb of beef and the rest filler.

Can a frozen beef patty with onions or peppers be sold in CT supermarkets and still be called a burger,? You say the word burger cannot be used if made with mixed ingredients, but how about a vegetable burger or turkey burger?

Last, , you state seasonings cannot be mixed in and still be call a burger.....in the past, you have said spices are allowed. Is there a difference between seasonings and spices? Also. you have said you cannot call it a *hamburger* if not 100% meat....but *burger* was acceptable when using fillers.....the information is conflicting, so I only pose the queries for clarification.....I'm not trying to stir the pot.

Note: The law I'm talking about applies to the sale of cooked hamburgers in restaurants, not raw product in groceries.

It's not about a difference between spices and seasonings, I stated that they could not be mixed in, but when cooking the spices and/or seaonings could be sprinkled on the burger. The legislative intent was that the actual patty be 100% pure beef.

An insoector from the local health district explained to me by excluding the seasonings from being mixed in to the meat beforwe cooking prevented restauarnts from masking the odors of meat that was past its prime, made the inspectors' jobs easier.

Turkey burger, and Veggie/Vegetable burger are now allowed to be used as descriptions by restaurants in CT, but the Turkey burger is subject to the same rules as to 100% as the beef hamburger.

While the public may equate burger and hamburger, the law restricts hamburger to 100% beef product, The term may not be used t describe a bison patty or lamb patty (for example)

Fat content and beef cuts are regulated in the form of labeling of meat sold at retail to the public or wholesale to restaurants. Restaurants are not held to the same standards, as prepared food, they can be doctored in any way as long as they give an honest and accurate description of the burger. An example would be a custom blend burger or gourmet type burger including different types of meat... or something like foie gras or truffles.

Meat labeling guidelines from the Consumer Protection Agencies/Departments of both New Jersey and Connecticut.....both are similar and take their lead from Federal guidelines.

From NJ Consumer Affarirs

"Hamburger" means chopped fresh andlor frozen beef,other than from the heart, esophagus, tongue or cheeks,with or without the addition of beef fat as such andlorseasoning and shall not contain more than 30 per cent of fatand shall not contain added water, binders or extenders.

From Connecticut

(h) "Hamburger" means chopped or ground fresh or frozen beef, other than from the heart, esophagus, tongue, or cheeks, with or without the addition of beef fat as such and shall not contain added water, binders or extenders. "Hamburger" shall not be composed of more than 30% fat.(1) Hamburger identified as "lean hamburger" shall contain not more than 22% fat.(2) Hamburger identified as "extra lean hamburger" shall contain not more than 15% fat.(3) Hamburger identified as "diet lean hamburger" shall contain not more than 10% fat and shall state the maximum percentage (%) of fat contained in the hamburger on the label adjacent to and of the same type size as the product identity.

Below is a direct communication I received from the Director from the Department of Consumer Protection:Food and Standards/Connecticut

There are established Federal standards of identity for different food products, not for every food product but for some. Hamburger is one such food product see below. Labels according to Federal and State law have to honest and accurate and have to use the standard of identity if one has been promulgated for that food - which is why you see some things indicated as patties and other as hamburger. Food cannot use a standard of identity label if they cannot meet the requirements of that standard.

These laws concern the sale of packaged raw or cooked meat under USDA inspection or the State of Connecticut which adopts the Federal Standards by reference. Ready-to-eat product prepped for individual service, e.g. burger joint burgers, doesn’t have to meet the same standard for its own prepped food. It needs to be honest and accurate but the restaurant can doctor its recipes any way it chooses as long as that is appropriately disclosed to customers.

Title 9, Sec. 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products.

(a) Chopped beef, ground beef. "Chopped Beef" or "Ground Beef"

shall consist of chopped fresh and/or frozen beef with or without

seasoning and without the addition of beef fat as such, shall not

contain more than 30 percent fat, and shall not contain added water,

phosphates, binders, or extenders. When beef cheek meat (trimmed beef

cheeks) is used in the preparation of chopped or ground beef, the amount

of such cheek meat shall be limited to 25 percent; and if in excess of

natural proportions, its presence shall be declared on the label, in the

ingredient statement required by Sec. 317.2 of this subchapter, if any,

Actually, I've seen segments on food shows that show how frankfurters are made, both skinless and natural casings.....in a variety of meat or meat combinations..beef ,veal and pork. I saw no hint of mystery meat or parts....but I'm sure the manufacturers of inexpensive products may not be so particular of what goes in the process.

Hot dogs today, for the most part, do not contain what many call "mystery meat", snouts, lips, etc. Ingredients have to be listed on the package. If you see the term "variety meats" then you can be sure that you are getting the undesirable parts of the pig or cow. These are the cheap hot dogs that you can buy for 99 cents a pound. A lot of cheaper hot dogs contain poultry and "mechanically separated chicken or turkey. Average supermarket hot dogs contain beef and or beef/pork trimmings.

Then you get to the better hot dogs that you pay more for. Hebrew National, Sabrett, Boars Head are some of the more familiar brands that are widely distributed. Some use high quality meat like choice beef and smoke them in smokehouses.

As you get to even better quality franks, you have regional brands like Best's and Thumann's out of New Jersey that use whole cuts of quality beef or beef/pork and little or no trimmings. There are pork stores that charge $6.99 for German style beef and pork franks that are made from top quality cuts of beef and pork from old world recipes passed down from generation to generation. These are wonderful and worth seeking out. And they totally dispel the negative stereotype of hot dogs being lips, snouts, peckers, and fillers. In the North East and other areas people take their hot dogs seriously. It's regional. Other areas (mostly the south) use cheap hot dogs made from beef/pork and chicken. Still not lips and peckers. The focus here is on the toppings (chili and coleslaw), not the actual frank.

These laws concern the sale of packaged raw or cooked meat under USDA inspection or the State of Connecticut which adopts the Federal Standards by reference. Ready-to-eat product prepped for individual service, e.g. burger joint burgers, doesn’t have to meet the same standard for its own prepped food. It needs to be honest and accurate but the restaurant can doctor its recipes any way it chooses as long as that is appropriately disclosed to customers.

The strict definition bagelman was referencing may or may not have existed at one time, but it definitely does not exist today.

Thanks for the reply, but with regards to seasoning, spices and *burger*, the conflicting information was from your information on an old thread asking the difference between a hamburger and meat loaf.

You used the Duchess restaurant in your example in the prior thread, and the information is different and not consistent with what you have cited here. There you said you must call it a burger if it has additives..... and that *spices* are allowed to be mixed in a hamburger.

You are consistent in citing a hamburger must be a 100% all beef/meat product, but the use of spices or seasonings is still unclear, and whether it it should be called a burger or something other.

laws are in flux, it's not a good idea to look at an old thread and compare with current responses. In the law when we look at a case to see if it would help in a current argument in court, we 'Shepardize' the case, this tells us if it's still good law, or has been overturned, accepted by which courts and not by others.

CT changed from 12 (?) years of a Republican administration to a Democratic administration not too long ago. While the law may not change, the executive appointee as a commissioner has some latitude in enforcement and interpretation of the law.

My understanding from my last discussion with the appropriate state enforcement agency, is that a restaurant may sprinkle spice or seasonings on the burger when cooking. For example: The restaurant can sprinkle onion powder on the hamburger, but NOT mix pieces of raw onion in the ground beef and then make the patties. McD puts raw onion on the bun, White Castle (and there aren't any left in CT) used to press the onion pieces into the patty while cooking.

I tend to use spice and seasoning interchangably, as you season with spices, but some spice mixtures are labelling seasoning.

Basically, if it is put on the patty when cooking and/or assembling it can be called a hamburger, if it is mixed in, the use of hamburger could get the restaurant in trouble.

It's actually quite common for a menu item to describe a certain pre-cooked weight.....but in fact, receive less......whether it be a hamburger, steak, fish fillet or other sea foods. I would not call out a place over an ounce or two, but I probably would not go back if they described their burger as 8 ounces, but in reality was six....received on multiple occasion. in my area, there a more than a few restaurants that advertise a 24 ounce Rib Eye Steak......I can honestly say only place is honest in what is served. Most miss the mark by at least 6 ounces every time.

Basically, if it is put on the patty when cooking and/or assembling it can be called a hamburger, if it is mixed in, the use of hamburger could get the restaurant in trouble.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can fully understand and accept the guidelines for *hamburger*....but

Above, you cite that you cannot call it a burger either.....but if you go to the Duchess menu, they clearly have what they call burgers on their menu.

Whether it is enforced or not based on interpretation....that is really just confusing the issue with the statute you reference, or by indicating it cannot be called a burger as well in your post to Ditdah....(if additions are mixed in, which you indicated Duchess includes).

Duchess seems like a pretty well established company with many locations. It would seem odd to me that they would flagrantly skirt or challenge the law so openly and prominently..

Duschess and its predecessors have been around for 50 years, Locations are individually owned and its website is highly innaccurate. Many locations have closed, such as Hamden, Newtown and Danbury, although the website as of last week (the last time I looked) still lists the Danbury location as open (It's now a small grocery that also sells 'Duchess' style fast food.They tend to fly under the radar, as they are not statewide and inspections are done by small health districts. No real advertising that would attract state authorities.I do remember when they had to change the formulation of their 'Big D Cheeseburger' in the 90s when the state caught them adding soy as an extender. They were not permitted to use the term burger with a non-beef additive.

The state has taken a somewhat lenient position on the term 'burger' IF it is properly labelled with a prominent adjective such as "Turkey" burger, "Veggie burger" where the consumer in no way expects 100% ground beef. BUT if an establishment uses a 'blind' term as "BIG burger" or "Heavenly burger" it has to be 100% beef with no add ins before cooking.In many ways this is about truth in advertising as well as food purity.

With due respect....I have no idea who you spoke with, but as a person who likes to stay in touch with food trends in the the food industry as best i can when something piques my interest......nothing against you personally, but the information and explanations you have provided just did not pass muster for me and my curiosity got the best of me, simply for the reasons it seemed odd and made no sense..... plus. it's in contradiction and against what businesses are actually doing in terms of describing and selling burgers and hamburgers on their menus, examples of such, which are available on their websites.....so I did some research with the Departments of Consumer Protection:Food and Standards, for both Connecticut and New Jersey to see what information I could find, and it was contrary to the information told to you.

In a nutshell, the standards are in fact, quite similar for both states. ....and the information you received is inaccurate. Yes, Hamburger does have to be made from beef products (Meat, no offal), but can also contain spices, seasonings and up to 70% beef and 30% beef fat, not necessarily 100% beef, as in all meat, no fat.......but as prepared food, Restaurant Burgers can have anything mixed in, as long as it is honest in describing the additions accurately, they can doctor them any way they wish and are not held to the same standards. Restaurant Hamburgers can have seasoning mixed in.

If you would like the response I received from the director of CP from CT, I would be more than happy to share it with you.

For the record, I dealt with my share of health inspectors....as well as inspectors of all various department for multiple municipalities and counties. I never take their word 100% to be true or accurate if I am opposed to it in actual situations that concern me....I need to see the proof to meet my satisfaction so I could comply with any code.

"Here in Connecticut"... That same law is a USDA requirement on Ground Beef, no matter if you're in Ct or PR...anywhere the U.S. flag flies that is the requirement no filler, no extenders, no additives to be labeled ground beef...however "pink slime" is made from superficial beef trimmings removed from hides and from skeletal beef joints that a knife can't get to...it resembles wiener or bologna emulsion prior to stuffing into casings for cooking or to the untrained eye (potted meat) and pink slime is beef that has been washed in quaternary ammonium salt and water, then strained and drained of excessive water and added to the ground beef as long as the moisture content of the pink slime does not exceed the natural moisture content of ground beef, in addition, beef cheek meat and beef heart meat can be added as long as it does not exceed the natural proportions of the whole skeletal meat proportions or about 15% in combination or separately in totality. Hamburger can have added fat up to 30% total fat of the entirety of the finished product. Hamburger can have up to 3.5% added extenders/binders as long as they are reflected in the product name, i.e., Hamburger and directly underneath in 1/3 size lettering Soy Protein Concentrate Added or whatever the binder or extender is.Beef Patties can have added fat, added extenders, binders, added water, no limits on beef heart meat or beef cheek meat...just as long as it retains the shape of a patty when it is traveling down the conveyor belt to the freeze tunnel and does not flow or run off the belt. Beef patties can also have added spices, flavoring, and seasonings.

Sonic has hot dogs. I'm reeeeealy picky when it comes to hot dogs, so I've never tried them, but I think they have quite a few different toppings. I know they aren't one of the largest chains, but they're growing. Maybe if they become popular enough, other places will find a way to do them, too?

Our local Dairy Queen makes a real good hot dog. "Two chili dogs, an order of onion rings and a small slaw". Bliss.

This crappy little town (pop. < 3,000) doesn't have much going for it but at least the owners of the Dairy Queen and the McDonald s are in there working their butts off every day trying to make a living.

The problem I have with the Dairy Queen chili dogs is they usually have low quality chicken and/or turkey wieners instead of beef, pork, or beef and pork.

We have a couple of Chicago guys in the Twin Cities that have three restaurants, Chicago Taste Authority that have great hotdogs, Vienna Beef, and good buns with poppy seeds but have crappy chili. The chili they put on their hotdogs is thin with little meat and lots of beans. That's not hotdog chili. I'd rather go across the street and buy a couple of chili dogs from the SuperAmerica convenience store.

Ridiculous. Even I know you would NEVER put chili on a Chicago dog because a Chicago already has neon relish, onions, mustard, pickle spear, tomatoes, peppers, celery salt, on a poppy seed bun. Why would anyone put chili on a Chicago hotdog?