makes ya wonder why the same DZ's are advertising for help every season. Especially those that have been around for a while. I understand the attrition rate and so forth but, there has to be a problem when it happens every single year. Especially if they say they are graduating a TON of students and that "We will keep you busy." I've answered these ads, moved there on my dime, made the commitment to do my job only to have it all change once I get there. What do these Bozo's think? "Oh, he's here now and we have him." Rotation isn't what it is suppose to be, the number of jumps aren't anywhere near what were promised and yet, you're suppose to just smile and say "OK". This is BS. It's very tuff to make a living in this biz when it is good. Nearly impossible when it is not so good. I guess as long as these DZO"s continue to have enough newbies to go thru, it will continue.......

Re: [baronn] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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Instead of some vague post how about some specifics on where to avoid and why so others that haven't been around as long as you can have some insight.

And I watch all the ads that roll through and some dzs pop up more than others and it always makes me wonder why, I don't mind working for assholes as long as the workload is there personally. I figure it's a coin flip between asshole dzos and not enough work to live.

Re: [fanya] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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I did attempt to put a forum together to share experiences at the places I have been but, was shut down. Were afraid it was going to turn into a bitch session. Mighta been some truth to that but then again, might have been able to avoid some of the pitfalls I endured. I have found the smaller 182 DZ's to be more to my style vs a larger one. You avoid most of the ridiculous attitude stuff and their isn't as much "Pulling the blanket to my side of the bed" sorta business. It's still there, just smaller, more manageable chunks. One has to weigh the am I here to work and make money or willing to be part of a cog/slave to the large DZ mentality to have the bigger planes and better fun jumps. I'm in it for the dough and I enjoy AFF for my fun jumps. I won't publish on this forum but, if someone wants my opinion, PM me here. It's free and may only be worth that.

Re: [baronn] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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Quote:

Especially if they say they are graduating a TON of students and that "We will keep you busy."

Just to play devil's advocate, read the 'regular' employment classifieds (as in non-skydiving jobs) and you see the same thing. "Make xx dollars per week!" or "Unlimited earning potential!". Everyone is going to talk up their gig to get bodies in the door.

Really 'busy' DZs generally have a crop of up-and-comers to fill out the staff. Even if they don't, places that are known to be busy will always have phone calls/emails/ pop-in's from jumpers looking for work. Think about it, it's rare to see SDAZ or Perris advertising in the classifieds. People know it's a 'hub' of activity, and just show up on their own, no ad required.

Truthfully, if I was going to move somewhere for a gig, I'd be looking for a contract and some sort of moving expenses. Even if they were paid out over time, say an extra $100/month for 5 months, or similar, I don't see why the employee should be the only one taking a chance on the deal. If the DZO needs the help and values his employees, it's not asking much and a real sign of 'good faith' on their part.

Re: [davelepka] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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right now there is a big ad from SDAZ right on a main page :)

it's a great pity I could not legally work in USA, otherwise I would be first in line to their office :(

our situation here is simple. 3 DZs, only one have turbine. and yes, the DZO is asshole. but every student in the area goes to this DZ because this is only option to have normal AFF, so every instructor who want to make a living should work with this guy.

Re: [davelepka] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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Quote:

Truthfully, if I was going to move somewhere for a gig, I'd be looking for a contract and some sort of moving expenses. Even if they were paid out over time, say an extra $100/month for 5 months, or similar, I don't see why the employee should be the only one taking a chance on the deal. If the DZO needs the help and values his employees, it's not asking much and a real sign of 'good faith' on their part.

Coming from the prospective of someone who is in the process of building a start up operation by building a private airport.... how much do you think I'm about to drop in just building a turf strip, or just the fuel bill to run the bulldozer & grader? Then there is the lawyer expense, time dealing with the government, cost of airplane ownership, fuel bill for plane, insurance for bird, insurance for slip & fall, expense to acquire additional real estate, gear, marketing, phones, internet, license fees, the list is endless of the shit we bring to the table.

And you want what? Only one taking risk on the deal, for real? The way I see it I'm the one taking ALL the risk here and have one hell of a bill to pay, you want in and to play ball, then take a little risk of your own and make the trip or not, there are more then enough people out there willing to invest in their own contract services provider companies.... that is what you are a contractor.

No one pays me a ferry fee for going to work events and showing up with all my gear. No dzo is going to pay extra for your travel or relocation unless it's one of the real big boys and even then, I highly doubt it.

Re: [stratostar] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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Quote:

Coming from the prospective of someone who is in the process of building a start up operation by building a private airport.... how much do you think I'm about to drop in just building a turf strip, or just the fuel bill to run the bulldozer & grader? Then there is the lawyer expense, time dealing with the government, cost of airplane ownership, fuel bill for plane, insurance for bird, insurance for slip & fall, expense to acquire additional real estate, gear, marketing, phones, internet, license fees, the list is endless of the shit we bring to the table.

Sure, and how much do you stand to make off that investment in comparison to a guy who's just going to show up and do some work jumps?

Based on what a guy could make in a season, his risks are no students, no weather, no airplanes, no rigs, all of these things are out of his control, and have the ability to 'zero' his income. With that in mind, he's taking a significant risk in relocating for work, and I don't think it's inappropriate to expect something for that risk.

Case in point - you stated lawyer fees in your rundown of expesnes, what does your lawyer do for you? Make sure contracts are square? Make sure your waiver is sound? Make sure your interests are protected? Of course, because you're making an investment, and you're looking to guarantee is as much as possible.

There's always risk when investing in anything, and the prudent businessman will do everything they can to limit that risk as much as possible. Let's say you're leasing your land for your airport, I'm sure you have a written lease with ALL the details spelled out. Even if your landlord is a great guy, you need to know that you have legal right to that land for 'x' number of years before you spend a dime on improvements.

So let's get back to our travelling instructor. He's taking a risk in coming to a DZ to work. Nobody knows how much work there will be, or how much of the available work he'll end up getting. The risk he takes is that he's going to station himself there, and possibly give up the chance to be at a DZ where he could be making more money. That's the risk. Something like moving expenses is a risk that could be limited by getting the DZO to kick in for them. If they're paid out over the course of the contract period (like I said, $100/month for 5 months, or whatever), it provs that the DZO is 'real' about wanting to employ the guy and it makes the instructor hang-out and be there for the full 'contract' period in order to collect all the reimbursement.

I know it's not the way it's done in this industry, what I'm saying is that based on my business experience outside of the industry, that's what I would be looking for before 'betting it all' and moving to a new situation for a season.

Re: [davelepka] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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You are preaching to the choir, sir... I have moved across the country on my own dime and took those risks you talk about, a number of times, like many others have. Hell moved across the ocean for gods sake.

Sometimes it was great, other times you got burned, this is not a an easy industry to do, the income is limited by outside factors beyond your control... how you plan for that is the difference between those of us who are still here after many yrs and those who are here & gone in 5.

I understand your point, you would not want to move across the country at your expense with no known base $$$. It's reasonable and easy to understand why.... it's not the reality of the industry though. Like I said no one gives me a ferry fee to go to events, I take the risk like all the other traveling jumpers, if it rains we lose, no work, we lose.... I even at times have to pay to registration on top of the travel expense to get to the even I'm working.

Flip side of that is, I know who I can trust to work for, they always pay me and treat me good, if it all goes to hell for some reason, most of them are kind and do offer some take home just for making a 800 mile trip, like gas money home.

Believe me I get, been there done that got a lot of t-shirts too, but I'll be seeking staff if all the proper sign off's are approved, however the large investment in opening the doors will not allow me to pay anyone's moving expense or rent. I will provide for, rent free, for those who have RV's, hook ups, water & indoor facilities if your are staff. Some of the people who have expressed an interest are 3 or 4 hrs away and are willing make that commute for the w/end, they own 5th wheels and can leave on site.

Then again I'm interested a whole different level of "staff" and the kind of people who see an opportunity to help build and grow along side. Ever notice that highly successful large volume dz's always have the same life long friends/partners running the show. That is because of the level of trust and that is what I'm talking about. Those are the players I'm seeking, there will always the noob rated guy looking for work and wanting to "live the dream"..... there is place for them too. We all have a level of risk to take.

Re: [stratostar] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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Quote:

Flip side of that is, I know who I can trust to work for

In that case, your 'guarantee' is who you're working for, not a contract or expense reimbursement.

The OP in this thread was talking about 'new' situations, where an unknown (to you) DZO is in need, and you're thinking about moving yourself across the country to work there. In those cases, I would see it as more of a 'business' deal, where a contract and some additional considerations were required.

Hell, even in the course of non-jumping business, I know people who I'll do deals with and spend money on with no contracts in place because I know them and fell like they are a safe bet that they won't hang me out to dry.

In the end, it all comes down to the same thing that was discussed in the thread about AFF pay. You can't have a union or be too organized when there are people out there willing to do without those things. Sure, you could ask for moving expenses to come work someplace, but there's a fair chance that there are 10 other guys willing to to do it without.

Re: [stratostar] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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I personally have been paid to come and work. Only happened once and yeah, he was pretty desperate. It was a big trip and I wouldn't have done it had I not gotten reimbursed for my expenses. Opening a DZ today is probably NOT the best investment from an ROI viewpoint. I admire anyone willing to lay it on the line and make the kind of commitment necessary to do it. I would not ask for a my travel in that situation and pretty sure other's wouldn't either. What the forum is about, is DZO's that are not being honest about the requirements and worse yet, changing the agreement once you show up. Comparing that with an ad in the regular classifieds is not accurate. One goes through a variety of levels getting involved in this sport/business. 500 jump wonder with a fresh tandem ticket and just happy to be in it to having made a serious time/effort commitment and are trying to make a living doing this. A part timer on the weekend is NOT making the same commitment and there should be a difference, IMO. Perhaps, getting the regular job and becoming a part timer is the answer. I have been on both sides of this and know it well. I just feel more clarity and honesty up front could avoid many of these situations.

Re: [baronn] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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We are in agreement, in fact if you take the time search my post on this topic of dzo's a shitty wanted ad's I have started threads just like this before. We all know, after you been around awhile who is above board and who is not, and in most cases people will not come right out and bash a DZ or DZO like what just happened to Nick K.

I don't know what to tell you, other then as a longtime partaker wearing many hats.... most dzo's get it when it comes to the full time vs pt time. IF you are a team player you get the work... if I got keep calling up the pt's to cover for you, well guess who works and who sits.

Anytime I see a shitty ad on here, where all they list is a contact number of email and no location of the state or dz name.... HUGE red flag! Some DZO's or the people they let write their ad's are stupid as all fuck!

Their are some well known shady one who will fuck you over, no doubt. When you don't have to reply on that skydiving job to cover the mortgage and all that other shit and you earn a real pay check from a real job, it makes it a lot easier to play skydiving instructor and have fun doing it.

Re: [stratostar] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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I can promise you with 100 percent confidence that EVERY dropzone does different than EVERY other dropzone. People used to working one program often find themselves ducks out of water after a move. The term "full time" is very nebulous. Some places that means you are guaranteed a place in the rotation, regardless of when you show up. Other places it means your place is dependent on when you show up. Some places your only responsibility is jumping. Other places it means you are going to be washing planes and painting rocks when you are down.

If I have ONE gripe, though, it's working at dropzones where all the "full-timers" get hired because they are triple-hatted (Tandem/AFF/Video), then they gradually ease their way into a rhythm where they only want to do video or they only want to do AFF or whatever so they can fuck off and swoop on every jump. Those people are getting over and they make it harder on their fellow employees and they make it difficult on DZO's and school managers who then have to scramble to back-fill with "part timers" who then get bitched at and backstabbed by those same lazy-ass "full-timers" for taking their lunch money. I hate that part of the industry. If you get hired to do everything, then don't bitch when it's your turn to throw a damn drogue or get tasked to do AFF with that 240 pound galloot. It's YOUR JOB!! Don't bitch when you get asked to help wash the plane(s) either.

On that same note: If you are a video-only guy, or a tandem-only guy, or an AFF-only guy and you expect to make a living in this sport as a "one trick pony" then you are doing yourself and the other "real" multi-rated instructors out there a disservice. Make no mistake: that hard-core tandem instructor who gets stuck throwing drogues all day because "you are over it" likes to swoop his sport main once in a while too.

Re: [tkhayes] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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I think we may have 2 different situations here. DZO's that falsify the job and those that show up and don't/can't do the job. Both are deceptive and unnecessary. The DZO"s position is not easy. Most instructors (not all) have never run their own business and don't understand the ramifications of undependable behavior. DZ operators don't have the " I don't feel like it" option. They usually have just too much invested. A commitment should be honored, on BOTH sides of the agreement. Perhaps TK is right and it is simply human nature. Or laziness....

Re: [baronn] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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I believe that both sides would benefit from a more professional business model with set standards and clearly-defined contracts with their employees, vendors, and concessions. Unfortunately, the "good old boy" system, "handshake deals" and rampant nepotism seem to be the standard at many old-school operations. Others would argue that this system has worked for so long that they simply don't care to make any changes.

Re: [baronn] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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Some of the seasonal DZ's don't re hire all the instructors or other staff from the previous year. Some do not return. I know I offer the best instructors a place for the following season and replace the lazy and contrary ones. Same goes that if we treat them badly they will not return.

Our instructors get the numbers we promise and usually more; weather permitting.

Re: [baronn] The same DZ's are always looking for help each year......
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You are never going to be able to make a real living as a migrant worker. I'm not trying to run you, or the others that do that work, down. I've chucked about 2000 drouges, and I have a lot of respect for the folks who are full-time skydivers. But there is no real future in that sort of work. You are always at the mercy of the weather, the rotation, the number of students, the number of other staff members, etc. There is no retirement plan, no medical plan, nothing more than your pay for jumps. (There may be DZ's that offer this stuff, I suppose, but my guess is that the vast majority do not.) If you get hurt, your income stops cold. There are better ways to make a living.