Tom, you site healthy arm history quite a bit. I'm not going to go look up past posts, but its been said often by you. (Yes, OFTEN can be a term we disagree on though too) Nevertheless, you've mentioned it enough to where it definitely got my attention, when you kind of said that lat or arm didn't really change things.

Honestly, to me, a TJS isn't that big of a deal. Unless the dude has some weird delivery or something. But, I brought it up in this case, because 1) You were wrong on the type of injury and 2) You have cited healthy arm as being very important in the past. So I figured that the fact it wasn't an arm injury would actually have made you feel a bit better on him.

That said, I don't THINK you've ever been very high on him to begin with, but maybe I'm wrong.

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Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

davell wrote:Tom, you site healthy arm history quite a bit. I'm not going to go look up past posts, but its been said often by you. (Yes, OFTEN can be a term we disagree on though too) Nevertheless, you've mentioned it enough to where it definitely got my attention, when you kind of said that lat or arm didn't really change things.

Honestly, to me, a TJS isn't that big of a deal. Unless the dude has some weird delivery or something. But, I brought it up in this case, because 1) You were wrong on the type of injury and 2) You have cited healthy arm as being very important in the past. So I figured that the fact it wasn't an arm injury would actually have made you feel a bit better on him.

That said, I don't THINK you've ever been very high on him to begin with, but maybe I'm wrong.

So the only answer I will recieve to my question is what you are inaccurately telling me I say about arm injuries? I do appreciate the casual acknowledgement that you’re purposely getting my thoughts wrong with the throwaway line on how you personally don’t find TJ to be a big deal based on reasons probably.

Let it be known I'm not the one posting about this stupid horsefeathers during the middle of a Cubs game.

Tom, I legitimately TRIED to be helpful just now. Wasn't being horsefeathers, wasn't trying to start anything. I simply posted that you made a mistake. Which you did. I could go further now and say that not knowing what type of an injury the guy has, literally invalidates any other thoughts you may have on the matter, because why would anyone take what else you have to say seriously, on that subject?

As for my original thought process..... I honestly thought I might be putting your mind at ease by you mistaking it. Because you have cited having a healthy arm numerous times, in talking up multiple draft guys like Kumar Rocker, guys in our system like Ryan Kellogg, and guys you've advocated trading for like Marcus Stroman, Rick Porcello, Julio Teheran, and I'm leaving plenty out, on all fronts. These are memorable, due to how often you shoved them down everyone's throats. Oh, and Aroldis Chapman. As a starter.

I figured that because you HAVE constantly brought it up before, that knowing Alzolay didn't have an arm injury would have just resulted in you basically saying, "oh cool", not turn this into your typical horsefeathers.

Additional rule: you have to have one or the other.The only exception is you have an amazing board name. davell, I'm looking at you; put up a [expletive] avatar or something if your name only sounds like somebody tried say Dave as they lapsed into a coma.

There appears to be some confusion here about the definition of cordial. Not answering a straight question with a straight answer is pretty rude. It’s the only reason we are at this point. Doing it because no one but myself cares that you intentionally warped my words for your own purposes would also not be considered cordial.

Would I have gotten an answer if I just cushioned it with a “oops?” Guess we’ll never know, but feel free to invalidate my free message board opinion due to a clearly demonstrated lack of knowledge. The MiL pitcher just missed June-September+ of a season to a non-surgery back injury instead of a non-surgery arm one so there’s nothing to be skeptical of! It’s all good!

Last edited by TomtheBombadil on Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

There appears to be some confusion here about the definition of cordial. Not answering a straight question with a straight answer is pretty rude. Doing it because no one but myself cares that you intentionally warped my words for your own purposes would also not be considered cordial.

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"None of these signal alarm bells to me"-Boris"Sublime was driven by their frontman, who was, quite probably, a musical savant." -RIP Stannis(Formerly Diceman4221)

Some studies have even shown that up to 80% of people will also have some attachment to the scapula as well. This attachment point is very close to the teres major muscle, a muscle that is intimately related to the lat in both anatomy and function. Please note: I am note referring to the teres minor muscle, which is one of the rotator cuff muscles, but rather the teres major.

In the below illustration, you can see the large lat muscle on the left and the smaller teres major on the right. The left side also shows the intimate relationship between the lat and teres:

latissimus dorsi teres major baseball pitching injuries

At the point of the scapula, the lat runs parallel with the teres major muscle. In many people, the lat and the teres major may actually even blend together. In fact, baseball pitchers can injure either or both of these muscles from pitching, but you rarely hear about teres major injuries. Often times these will just be grouped together and labeled a “lat injury.” Of the 16 subjects in a recent study by Nagda in AJSM, only 3 had an isolated injury to the latissimus. Similarly, in another recent review by Schickendantz from AJSM, only 5 out of 10 subjects had isolated lat injuries.

There appears to be some confusion here about the definition of cordial. Not answering a straight question with a straight answer is pretty rude. It’s the only reason we are at this point. Doing it because no one but myself cares that you intentionally warped my words for your own purposes would also not be considered cordial.

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"It was met with, basically, he didn't want to talk about that. He didn't want me to tell him that. I just basically said, 'Well that's why we want an electronic strike zone.'" -- Ben Zobrist

What went wrong with Aramis Ademan's season? Certainly he was ranked highly in the system due to it being a weak system, but this has to be a step back for him, right?

J.J. Cooper: Ademan's season derailed quickly. He just looked overmatched all season to the point where scouts who were getting their first look at him asked why he was so highly regarded coming into the season. That said, a lot of it seemed to revolve around him being physically overwhelmed by the speed of the game in a bigger, stronger, faster league. He seemed to be worn out not all that long into the season and it didn't get better. There are still some tools there and the feel/understanding of the game is OK, he just has to get stronger.

Malik (Brooklyn):

Alex Lange or Cory Abbott going forward? I have to admit that Abbott surprised me quite a bit this season.

J.J. Cooper: Can make the argument for Abbott, which surprises me too. Abbot has a fastball/slider combination that could be pretty solid coming out of the pen. It was harder to find pro scouts who were enamored with Lange. Pro scouts aren't giving him credit for what he did in college. They are watching what he is now and what he often is now is a pitcher throwing a below-average fastball with a reliever's delivery as a starter. If he can find 3-4 mph that was often missing this year, he may project as a reliever, but I had multiple reports that he was sitting 88-90 this year. His secondary stuff, delivery and command aren't good enough to make up for a 40 fastball.

Cubs Fan (NC):

Bailey Clark was solid in a long relief role until he got hurt...and then finished strong and is headed to AZ fall league. Does he look better as a starter/long reliever...or would the FB/Slider combo be worth a shot as a closer type?

J.J. Cooper: I thought he was a reliever going back to his days at Duke. Nothing has really changed since then on that assessment from my reporting/what I've seen. He's a potentially useful reliever, but as you noted, health is a key part of being a successful pitcher.

This was a very good year for catchers in the Midwest League. Between Hernandez, Amaya, Ryan Jeffers, Hendrik Clementina and Luis Campusano, the league was full of intriguing young catchers. Amaya was among the most interesting.

Amaya took a big step forward this year with his power, as he hit nine home runs and slugged .500 in the first half of the season before wearing down in the second half. Amaya does chase out of the strike zone too often and needs to improve his ability to recognize breaking balls, but he has future average or even above-average power.

Defensively, Amaya has an above-average arm, is a calm receiver who has a chance to be at least an average defender. Considering his age and tools, he has a chance to be the rare catcher who contributes both offensively and defensively.

This was a very good year for catchers in the Midwest League. Between Hernandez, Amaya, Ryan Jeffers, Hendrik Clementina and Luis Campusano, the league was full of intriguing young catchers. Amaya was among the most interesting.

Amaya took a big step forward this year with his power, as he hit nine home runs and slugged .500 in the first half of the season before wearing down in the second half. Amaya does chase out of the strike zone too often and needs to improve his ability to recognize breaking balls, but he has future average or even above-average power.

Defensively, Amaya has an above-average arm, is a calm receiver who has a chance to be at least an average defender. Considering his age and tools, he has a chance to be the rare catcher who contributes both offensively and defensively.

2018 Stats .256/.349/.403414 AB, 12 HR, 52 RBI, 50 BB, 91 SO

Cop out much! Diplomacy is for the weak minded!

But legit there was a bunch of teenage catchers with pretty strong pedigrees that hit in full season ball this year. Nice that Amaya did so well to hit at least one top 100

After two seasons at the Cubs’ minor league complex in Arizona, Marquez graduated to the Northwest League in 2018. Before moving to low Class A South Bend late in the summer, Marquez showed all the ingredients necessary to make evaluators believe he has a future in a major league rotation.

The first thing that jumps out about Marquez is his fastball, which regularly parks in the mid-90s and touched as high as 98 mph this summer. His best secondary pitch is a mid-80s breaking ball, which seems to vacillate between a slider and a curveball. It is an above-average pitch now and could be plus in the future with further repetition and refinement. His 86-91 mph changeup is presently a little behind. It has plenty of movement but often has less separation than most changeups.

Marquez needs to work on repeating his delivery, but his ceiling is as high as any pitcher in the Cubs’ system.

Velazquez’s calling card is his power, stemming both from his bat and his arm. His 11 home runs made him one of six players in the NWL with double-digit home runs, just four behind league-leader Curtis Terry. He generates his power brute strength and well above-average bat speed. Velazquez has a double-plus arm. He grades as an average defender in the corners and has enough athleticism to play center field in a pinch. The key going forward will be his hit tool. Scouts see a poor approach with a lack of awareness about the way he will be pitched and the types of pitches he’s equipped to handle.

Navin (California): I’m guessing Nico Hoerner didn’t get enough reps but what did you hear about him. I’m pretty excited he’s headed to the AFL this year.

Bill Mitchell: Navin, you are correct about Hoerner. He barely had time to unpack and do any sightseeing in Oregon as he played only 7 games with Eugene. I saw him on several occasions this year, both with Stanford and then in a couple of early games in the AZL. The bat packed more wallop than I expected, so those scouting reports that questioned how much power he'd have may have been light on him. I believe he's going to hit, and he's the kind of guy who play above his tools. I'm eager to get more looks at him this week when AFL play starts.

Navin (Pasadena, CA): What is Jonathan Sierra’s prospect status? He commanded a higher bonus than Aramis Ademan, Miguel Amaya, Isaac Paredes and Brailyn Marquez in the same IFA class but they have all seemingly passed him by.

Bill Mitchell: Sierra has gotten noticeably stronger since his pro debut, but his development has been more of a slow burn. It's a long swing with some contact issues, and he hasn't yet been able to get to the raw power in games. Keep in mind that he's still only 19, so give him a little more time.

It sort of irks me when a guy's scouting report changes on a dime in like a month post draft. I've seen no mention of Nico himself making a fundamental change since May, and being a Stanford guy who was always on the periphery of the first round it's not like there were limited looks on him.

So were the amateur scouts lazy? Working off an older report when he actually was just a slap hitter and never updating their priors? Or did they just assume because he's short, white, fast, and/or at Stanford (is the Stanford swing still a thing?) he doesn't have power? Are the pro scouts jumping the gun, getting googly eyed because of a great couple of weeks? Is his stock being inflated just because he whooped ass against some 18 year olds, and in reality he's 100% the guy from his pre draft reports?

There's a breakdown here somewhere. I'm really interested to see what comes out of the AFL. because the top talent evaluators are typically there.

Bertz wrote:It sort of irks me when a guy's scouting report changes on a dime in like a month post draft. I've seen no mention of Nico himself making a fundamental change since May, and being a Stanford guy who was always on the periphery of the first round it's not like there were limited looks on him.

So were the amateur scouts lazy? Working off an older report when he actually was just a slap hitter and never updating their priors? Or did they just assume because he's short, white, fast, and/or at Stanford (is the Stanford swing still a thing?) he doesn't have power? Are the pro scouts jumping the gun, getting googly eyed because of a great couple of weeks? Is his stock being inflated just because he whooped ass against some 18 year olds, and in reality he's 100% the guy from his pre draft reports?

There's a breakdown here somewhere. I'm really interested to see what comes out of the AFL. because the top talent evaluators are typically there.

Well, there is a difference between college and the minors. He's performing with a wood bat now and you can see his swing in action against better stuff/better pitching.

I agree that scouting reports shouldn't change too much just a month after signing, unless the guy is heavily promoted like all the way to High-A. I remember some reports questioning Benintendi and his swing in college. Then he entered the minors and kept raking. Some top college hitters really struggle and some just keep hitting. It's not an exact science.

I think the reports on Nico are better now? I don't think it's changed too much honestly. The main questions are whether he can stick at SS (I still don't know about that) and whether he'll hit for power. The power seems likely now, but we'll have to wait and see.

Also, I don't think Nico employs the "Stanford Swing" and I don't remember reading that in any reports on him. His swing is geared towards hitting line drives all over the field.

Anyway, how he performs in the AFL will definitely tell us how advanced he is.

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"It was met with, basically, he didn't want to talk about that. He didn't want me to tell him that. I just basically said, 'Well that's why we want an electronic strike zone.'" -- Ben Zobrist

I imagine the Stanford swing is going away. Last year was Stanford's first year with a new coach after Mark Marquess retired.

To the point of Nico's scouting reports, I feel like a lot of the media reports have said they are updating their reports and were too light on him in the past (more power is the biggest note I keep seeing). I think this shows more about the weaknesses of prospect scouting reports in the media and what info they can get rather than a negative about actual MLB scouts. We already saw the gap in info on Roederer as some teams saw him when he was healthy and didn't want to give out their more glowing reports to the media and tip off other teams.

CaliforniaRaisin wrote:I imagine the Stanford swing is going away. Last year was Stanford's first year with a new coach after Mark Marquess retired.

To the point of Nico's scouting reports, I feel like a lot of the media reports have said they are updating their reports and were too light on him in the past (more power is the biggest note I keep seeing). I think this shows more about the weaknesses of prospect scouting reports in the media and what info they can get rather than a negative about actual MLB scouts. We already saw the gap in info on Roederer as some teams saw him when he was healthy and didn't want to give out their more glowing reports to the media and tip off other teams.

Were other teams that interested in Roederer? I haven't heard or read anything about other teams showing heavy interest in him. They might have had better scouting reports when he was healthy, but I'm pretty sure if the Cubs don't draft him he ends up going to UCLA.

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"It was met with, basically, he didn't want to talk about that. He didn't want me to tell him that. I just basically said, 'Well that's why we want an electronic strike zone.'" -- Ben Zobrist

CaliforniaRaisin wrote:I imagine the Stanford swing is going away. Last year was Stanford's first year with a new coach after Mark Marquess retired.

To the point of Nico's scouting reports, I feel like a lot of the media reports have said they are updating their reports and were too light on him in the past (more power is the biggest note I keep seeing). I think this shows more about the weaknesses of prospect scouting reports in the media and what info they can get rather than a negative about actual MLB scouts. We already saw the gap in info on Roederer as some teams saw him when he was healthy and didn't want to give out their more glowing reports to the media and tip off other teams.

Were other teams that interested in Roederer? I haven't heard or read anything about other teams showing heavy interest in him. They might have had better scouting reports when he was healthy, but I'm pretty sure if the Cubs don't draft him he ends up going to UCLA.

In a recent podcast, Longenhagen mentioned a scout for a team besides the Cubs whispered Benintendi comps.