I've been to Mozza four times. Each time I love it more. Although the pizza at the Los Angeles venue is slightly better than Orange County. Not sure why. But OC is very close to my home and office so I will be going there a lot more than Los Angeles.

I think you are right about Nancy not wanting to have her real recipe spread around. I don't blame her. I think this recipe is pretty good indeed. I went to the pizza making class in LA and they gave us the same recipe that was in the cookbook. At the time they said the book would have the real recipe, but no dice. I did ask the chef what the difference would be, and he said less yeast, more time to ferment the dough, and some malt (I'm not sure if they had malt in the recipe that we got at the pizza class).

If you try my updated version you might like it. As you know from watching Peter R.'s video, the real recipe it is a two day dough, so maybe my "improved" version is closer to the real thing. I think the addition of the sourdough culture is not that big of a deal, so I would encourage you to make it even if you don't have sourdough.

That being said, it's really easy to make a sourdough culture. Basically all you have to do is mix up flour and water and leave it on the counter for a few days and you will have sourdough. That is somewhat of an over simplification, but it's basically correct. I can send you some of my culture in the mail if you would like. You can private message me your address. You only need a tiny bit of it in order to get started.

Tin Roof,What kind of yeast did you use? What was the temperature during the rise? And, would you recommend adding more yeast (closer to the cookbook recipe) if I forgo the sourdough (I have Ischia culture but not active)?

Tin Roof,What kind of yeast did you use? What was the temperature during the rise? And, would you recommend adding more yeast (closer to the cookbook recipe) if I forgo the sourdough (I have Ischia culture but not active)?

I used SAF Instant Yeast. Temperature was room temp, approximately 70 degrees I would guess. I don't think it is necessary to add more yeast if you omit the sourdough culture, assuming you have the time to allow the dough to fully rise. The amount of sourdough used is quite small, and I don't think it makes a great deal of difference as far as leavening goes. I use it more as a flavoring agent to increase the complexity of the flavor of the dough.

I have not tried Nancy Silverton's recipe but I have a few questions and some comments.

First, did you follow Ms. Silverton's recipe exactly as given? For example, I looked at the recipe as given at http://www.foodgal.com/2011/09/pure-pizza-dough-heaven-the-recipe-from-pizzeria-mozza/ and I calculated that once the dough is made as part of the final mix, it is subjected to several periods at room temperature. I calculated a total time of 155 minutes (45/45/5/60). You indicated that you let your dough warm up for the better part of the day that you made the dough. It is hard to say, but if your warmup time was excessive, there might have been more acids formed and a lower pH as a result, and you may have had reduced residual sugar levels, which can affect the oven spring, much as Professor Calvel discusses in his book The Taste of Bread (see the quote in Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732).

Second, when I looked at the recipe as cited above, I counted 8 places where flour outside of the formula flour can be used, either in the mixer bowl, on the bench or on the hands or on the dough balls, from a fair amount (like a small handful) to dusting amounts. I also counted two places where semolina might be used, but as a release agent on the peel. If you avoided the use of flour or semolina, or only used small amounts, then your final dough could have had a hydration that perhaps was too high to get the desired results when baked, even in your deck oven at market. In my personal experience, very high hydration doughs do not bake up particularly well in my standard home electric oven. It is like trying to force the water out of a very damp kitchen sponge. If the water isn't forced out fast enough, quite possibly because the oven temperature is not high enough, you may well end up with a sub-par oven spring. It would be interesting to know how much all of the flour outside of the formula flour in Ms. Silverton's recipe lowers the stated formula hydration of about 84.6%. In this vein, did you follow Ms. Silverton's regimen for stretch and folds?

By any chance, did you have any leftover slices and, if so, how did they reheat? For example, were they soggy or limp after reheating? That is what I usually experience with reheating slices that are based on very high hydration values.

I have not tried Nancy Silverton's recipe but I have a few questions and some comments.

First, did you follow Ms. Silverton's recipe exactly as given? For example, I looked at the recipe as given at http://www.foodgal.com/2011/09/pure-pizza-dough-heaven-the-recipe-from-pizzeria-mozza/ and I calculated that once the dough is made as part of the final mix, it is subjected to several periods at room temperature. I calculated a total time of 155 minutes (45/45/5/60). You indicated that you let your dough warm up for the better part of the day that you made the dough. It is hard to say, but if your warmup time was excessive, there might have been more acids formed and a lower pH as a result, and you may have had reduced residual sugar levels, which can affect the oven spring, much as Professor Calvel discusses in his book The Taste of Bread (see the quote in Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732).

Second, when I looked at the recipe as cited above, I counted 8 places where flour outside of the formula flour can be used, either in the mixer bowl, on the bench or on the hands or on the dough balls, from a fair amount (like a small handful) to dusting amounts. I also counted two places where semolina might be used, but as a release agent on the peel. If you avoided the use of flour or semolina, or only used small amounts, then your final dough could have had a hydration that perhaps was too high to get the desired results when baked, even in your deck oven at market. In my personal experience, very high hydration doughs do not bake up particularly well in my standard home electric oven. It is like trying to force the water out of a very damp kitchen sponge. If the water isn't forced out fast enough, quite possibly because the oven temperature is not high enough, you may well end up with a sub-par oven spring. It would be interesting to know how much all of the flour outside of the formula flour in Ms. Silverton's recipe lowers the stated formula hydration of about 84.6%. In this vein, did you follow Ms. Silverton's regimen for stretch and folds?

By any chance, did you have any leftover slices and, if so, how did they reheat? For example, were they soggy or limp after reheating? That is what I usually experience with reheating slices that are based on very high hydration values.

Peter

Peter,

No, I didnít follow the Ms. Silvertonís recipe exactly as given. I mixed the preferment one day and then the same day mixed the final dough and then let the dough ball cold ferment. I know my timing was way off, but didnít know how I could mix the preferment and final dough the same day I was at market. I let the dough ferment at room temperature at market to see if it help to ferment the dough more. I do believe I probably left the dough ferment too long and with me not making the preferment and final dough on the same day. By me not following the right protocol, I probably fouled everything up.

I also didnít use any extra flours anywhere, but to dust the dough ball and on the peel. I did follow the Ms. Silvertonís regime of stretch and folds.

I didnít even bother to take the extra slices home for a reheat, because I sure didnít think the pizza tasted very good.

If I canít make the preferment and final dough in the amount of time that is stated, I really donít think I will be able to make this dough.

There has been some talk on this forum about Nancy Silverton's pizza recipe and the fact that it has been modified for the home oven. One commentator mentioned that it would be unlikely that Nancy would provide the actual recipe used in a brick oven. I suggest that members of this forum suggest and experiment with changes that would necessary for its use in a brick oven. My brick oven in New England is closed for the season but will open up again in spring when I share my own results.

There has been some talk on this forum about Nancy Silverton's pizza recipe and the fact that it has been modified for the home oven. One commentator mentioned that it would be unlikely that Nancy would provide the actual recipe used in a brick oven. I suggest that members of this forum suggest and experiment with changes that would necessary for its use in a brick oven. My brick oven in New England is closed for the season but will open up again in spring when I share my own results.

bakerbill

baker bill,

I have been playing around with this dough, but havenít had the best results so far. I plan on getting back to this formula or a modified one sometime in the future. I just have to figure out all what I am doing wrong.

There are quite a few places online that sell barley malt, both liquid and dry. If I recall correctly, the Silverton recipe does not specify the form of the barley malt. But for the amount of it that is called for in the recipe, I think you can go with either form and not have to adjust the formula hydration to compensate for the water content of the liquid form if you choose to use that form.

Since I havenít been really successful with the Nancy Silvertonís dough and pizza in this thread, I decided to try again, but this time use fresh yeast in the preferment and the final dough. This time I used KABF and instead of using 61.39 grams of flour in the final mix I used 75 grams by adding it gradually until I thought the dough might be more manageable. I also changed the honey to dry malt, but used the same amount. The dough was still sticky, but could be managed it better. I also added 5 grams of dried red and green peppers after the dough was mixed.

The preferment fermented for 12 hrs. at room temperature. The final dough is also going to ferment at room temperature.

I submitted this pizza in this months challenge, because I had added dried peppers to the dough. I posted this same thing at this months challenge, but I will post it here again. The dressings for this Nancy Silvertonís ďpepper doughĒ pizza were roasted butternut squash that was roasted with olive oil, pepper, and sea salt. The regular peppers were roasted with olive oil and a little bit of sea salt. Fresh smoked mozzarella grated was blended into the butternut squash with a stick blender. I sliced strips of smoked mozzarella and grated Fontina cheese. A few dried peppers were rehydrated to be added as an extra dressing, to go with the peppers in the dough.

I donít know if it was the combination of peppers in the dough with the other peppers, or the butternut squash with smoked mozzarella, or the room temperature dough fermented with fresh yeast, but I thought this pizza really tasted great. This pizza was baked in my home oven on the stone. At least I am getting somewhere with the preferment Nancy Silvertonís recipe, not like my last few failures. This pizza isnít exactly like I wanted it, but was an improvement. The dough was still manageable with the dried peppers in the dough and it was easy to stretch out the skin. The dough was punched down one time today, because I thought it was fermenting to fast, and then balled again to ferment more.

Wow! That crumb looks fabulous. Nice job, Norma. I think the reduction in moisture really doesn't hurt a bit. Still a really beautiful crumb and great spring. Maybe the cake yeast helps a bit too, who knows?

You probably have been reading fazzari's experiment with bulk fermentation and reballing. I gather from that thread that reballing is a lot more important than most people realize. I am going to try doing that more often in the future.

Wow! That crumb looks fabulous. Nice job, Norma. I think the reduction in moisture really doesn't hurt a bit. Still a really beautiful crumb and great spring. Maybe the cake yeast helps a bit too, who knows?

You probably have been reading fazzari's experiment with bulk fermentation and reballing. I gather from that thread that reballing is a lot more important than most people realize. I am going to try doing that more often in the future.

Regards,

TinRoof

Tin Roof,

Thanks for your kind works! I donít think the reduction in hydration hurts either. The dough was still sticky. I like cake yeast, but usually canít find it in our area. This cake yeast was even frozen.

I have been reading Johnís (fazzari) thread about bulk fermentation and reballing. I havenít tried out experiments like John is now, but in Reinhart doughs I usually reball to get decent results.

My home oven only get a little over 500 degrees F. I would have like to try this dough in a hotter oven.