No, having Nazr go 4-6 instead of Ben's 1-6 isn't the reason we lost

Yes! Give us anybody...we will win!

The Spurs have come back to win a ship after losing the prior year... To say we're at the end of a run is not relevant... the team evolves... one good move and you're back in the hunt. I haven't heard anyone predict they'll be changing the address to 6 Ship drive any time soon. History shows that there will be more changes this year before we can call it a final product.

wow, this gets really baffling when you think about it. Using this logic, have the spurs, for example, actually had any runs at all? Intuitively, I'd have said yes. But i think if I follow your reasoning here, Hack, it seems they haven't. Is that right?

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I feel you Professor...........I never knew there were so many definitions to the term, "the run"!!!!!!!

Everybody has there own spin on it. As long as we keep making it to the ECF we are still in it, or still on our run if you ask me. Afterall, that`s just one series away from the Finals. Let`s see, we have been to how many ECF? Is it like 5 in a row?

I admit on paper and looking at the moves that have been made, the vibes we are getting from the players, and Flip`s reputation as a playoff flop is not very encouraging, however, we have the talent on this team to compete and contend, THIS YEAR.

Can`t we just wait and see what they look like on the court before we crucify them?

I have to agree Dlev. If Wade blows his knee out, or Shaq chokes on some Triple burgers, we've got to be considered the run away favorite in the East. Basically, an (other team) injury away from being right back in the dance...

I have to agree Dlev. If Wade blows his knee out, or Shaq chokes on some Triple burgers, we've got to be considered the run away favorite in the East. Basically, an (other team) injury away from being right back in the dance...

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And I'd go one step further. At least as far as Miami goes, it wasn't just Wade and Shaq. In fact, I don't even think it was mainly them. I think what made them tough to beat was that all the riff-raff that Riley assembled hit the top of their game at the right time (I credit them for that) and Riley had them working TOGETHER (I credit him for that). So I give them credit. But that sort of peaking is a freaky and delicate thing. Riley may very good at it, but he's not some superhuman master controller. In other words, not only should the jury still be out on whether our boys can work this year; but the jury to me is out on whether Miami, Cleveland, Chicago, Jersey, etc. can hold together and/or improve upon what they achieved last year.

I'm not so much worried about the result of the moves we've made -- I'm mostly CONFUSED about the PROCESS. But the race in the East next year seems pretty open to me.

And I'd go one step further. At least as far as Miami goes, it wasn't just Wade and Shaq. In fact, I don't even think it was mainly them. I think what made them tough to beat was that all the riff-raff that Riley assembled hit the top of their game at the right time (I credit them for that) and Riley had them working TOGETHER (I credit him for that). So I give them credit. But that sort of peaking is a freaky and delicate thing. Riley may very good at it, but he's not some superhuman master controller. In other words, not only should the jury still be out on whether our boys can work this year; but the jury to me is out on whether Miami, Cleveland, Chicago, Jersey, etc. can hold together and/or improve upon what they achieved last year.

I'm not so much worried about the result of the moves we've made -- I'm mostly CONFUSED about the PROCESS. But the race in the East next year seems pretty open to me.

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Very true. Pistons would have slaughtered them if it happened a month earlier. Sometimes its the hottest and healthiest team that wins.

``wow, this gets really baffling when you think about it. Using this logic, have the spurs, for example, actually had any runs at all? Intuitively, I'd have said yes. But i think if I follow your reasoning here, Hack, it seems they haven't. Is that right?''

``wow, this gets really baffling when you think about it. Using this logic, have the spurs, for example, actually had any runs at all? Intuitively, I'd have said yes. But i think if I follow your reasoning here, Hack, it seems they haven't. Is that right?''

I'd think so, yes. A run does imply stringing a few together.

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I disagree. I believe a run can be described as several years of being very competitive; resulting in division titles, Conference titles, and ultimately NBA Championships.

The SA Spurs make the cut, as well as the Pistons.

Stringing a few together, if you are refering to championships, would be considered a dynasty.......

Orlando fans are still thinking about the Glory days when they were in the ECF for 2 years in a row and made it to the FInals. The Nets were in the Finals 2 years in a row and ECF for 3. Indy - no championships but they had a run in the late 90's.

i guess for me, having grown up in Wisconsin almost without any experience of my teams being actual champions in anything, the Pistons began a run in 2002 (the year they lost to the Nets in the ECF) and they are still on that run.

So then, to try to define what I mean by a run, I abstract from that kind of intuitive sense I've just given of when their run started and whether or not it is still continuing.

When I do that i realize that for me:

-making the playoffs is essential to a run, and getting past the first round is essential to a run. However making the conference finals, winning the conference finals, or winning the championship is not necessary.

-Having the exact same roster, or even having a stable core of four or five players is not essential to my definition of a run (although I personally believe that it increases the likelihood of what I would call a run)

-a progressive success arc (i.e. getting to conf. finals one year, winning conf. finals the next, then winning the title the next) followed by a plateau (winning a couple of titles in a row) is NOT essential to my definition of a run. to me, a team can kind of "bob" up and down over the course of several years and still be considered on a run so long as they stay above that "make it to the second round of the playoffs" threshold.

But obviously, as many have already noted in one form or another, these standards or criteria are highly subjective and, I think, very colored by one's prior experiences with teams. So I think that for many who followed the Bad Boys, that kind of set a pattern for what a "run" is. Conversely, for a kid who grew up watching the Packers get beat consistently, the football and basketball badgers serve as tune-ups for MIchigan/OSU or Indiana, the Brewers have one brilliant year in '82, the Bucks one title, the standards for what constittutes a run might be a bit more relaxed. In fact, the Bucks of the late 70s and 80s are a good example for me: when I look back at it, I think: "hmmm, Bucks had a nice little run during that period". But what did they do?

In other words, they had ZERO championships and in fact didn't even make the finals. But it was still a good run. They were excellent teams, who ran into some superlative teams in the playoffs (DR J's sixers and then Bird's Celtics). From a fan's point of view, however, the run was there because i expected them to make the playoffs, i could reasonably hope (though not necessarily expect) them to get past the first round, and i could slightly less reasonably hope (and definitely not expect) them to make it to the conference finals and beyond.

'kay, i meant to just throw in 2 cents and i'm sorry i gave you about buck (!!) fifty

i guess for me, having grown up in Wisconsin almost without any experience of my teams being actual champions in anything, the Pistons began a run in 2002 (the year they lost to the Nets in the ECF) and they are still on that run.

So then, to try to define what I mean by a run, I abstract from that kind of intuitive sense I've just given of when their run started and whether or not it is still continuing.

When I do that i realize that for me:

-making the playoffs is essential to a run, and getting past the first round is essential to a run. However making the conference finals, winning the conference finals, or winning the championship is not necessary.

-Having the exact same roster, or even having a stable core of four or five players is not essential to my definition of a run (although I personally believe that it increases the likelihood of what I would call a run)

-a progressive success arc (i.e. getting to conf. finals one year, winning conf. finals the next, then winning the title the next) followed by a plateau (winning a couple of titles in a row) is NOT essential to my definition of a run. to me, a team can kind of "bob" up and down over the course of several years and still be considered on a run so long as they stay above that "make it to the second round of the playoffs" threshold.

But obviously, as many have already noted in one form or another, these standards or criteria are highly subjective and, I think, very colored by one's prior experiences with teams. So I think that for many who followed the Bad Boys, that kind of set a pattern for what a "run" is. Conversely, for a kid who grew up watching the Packers get beat consistently, the football and basketball badgers serve as tune-ups for MIchigan/OSU or Indiana, the Brewers have one brilliant year in '82, the Bucks one title, the standards for what constittutes a run might be a bit more relaxed. In fact, the Bucks of the late 70s and 80s are a good example for me: when I look back at it, I think: "hmmm, Bucks had a nice little run during that period". But what did they do?

In other words, they had ZERO championships and in fact didn't even make the finals. But it was still a good run. They were excellent teams, who ran into some superlative teams in the playoffs (DR J's sixers and then Bird's Celtics). From a fan's point of view, however, the run was there because i expected them to make the playoffs, i could reasonably hope (though not necessarily expect) them to get past the first round, and i could slightly less reasonably hope (and definitely not expect) them to make it to the conference finals and beyond.

'kay, i meant to just throw in 2 cents and i'm sorry i gave you about buck (!!) fifty

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Let me understand you here Prof.........You say a championship is not important in a run?? Hmmm, I guess "runs" can be prioritized as championship or competitive runs. I am a fan of Title runs myself.

I remember those Bucks teams, they never seemed to get over the hump, and a good run it was, based on your definition of a run, I guess a ship has to be mixed in to be considered a run for me......

Let me understand you here Prof.........You say a championship is not important in a run?? Hmmm, I guess "runs" can be prioritized as championship or competitive runs. I am a fan of Title runs myself.

I remember those Bucks teams, they never seemed to get over the hump, and a good run it was, based on your definition of a run, I guess a ship has to be mixed in to be considered a run for me......

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I didn't mean to suggest that in some sort of absolute sense "championship" isn't important to a run. I certainly get how a championship needs to be a part of it for some people and most especially if, as Hack reminds me, the original phrase is "championship run."

I think I meant just to emphasize that for someone in my position -- i.e. not used to very many championships -- a good run, even an excellent run, one that a fan can get excited about, can happen without championships. For me, the Pistons have definitely been on such a run since 2002 and it's still going on for me.

I didn't mean to suggest that in some sort of absolute sense "championship" isn't important to a run. I certainly get how a championship needs to be a part of it for some people and most especially if, as Hack reminds me, the original phrase is "championship run."

I think I meant just to emphasize that for someone in my position -- i.e. not used to very many championships -- a good run, even an excellent run, one that a fan can get excited about, can happen without championships. For me, the Pistons have definitely been on such a run since 2002 and it's still going on for me.

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I got you. In that sense I guess a run for a Lions fan would be a string of 8-8 seasons..............

Seriously, the Pistons are certainly still on a run, however, as The Low has so articuately pointed out, this will be the tell all year to verify if the "run" is still on, and I must concur with that reasoning.

Moreover, a winning season, (48-52 wins, and advancing to at least the EC Finals) ensures we are still up and running. On the other hand, anything less than a trip to the EC Tittle game, the run has turned into a trot.

Since we have been to the EC Finals seems like every year, I will use that as a measuring stick for success, but sooner or later we must make that next step to another Finals!

Hate to say it but I am kind of discouraged about the whole Piston thing, so yes, my enthusiam is lacking right now; for many reasons. I really do not like our coach. I really do not like how the NBA refs favor these stars with ridiculous respect. I also am very unhappy with how the league has cracked down on how our Pistons would play tough D. I also really do not like how Ben bailed out on us after we gave up Darko to sign him. Although I blame Joe Dumars as much as I do Ben. I can't fault Ben for taking care of his family but I do fault Joe for waiting till the last minute to find out exactly what Ben needed. Chicago definitely overpaid. And the most discouraging thing is that I feel we should be going for a fourpeat right now. I'm sorry the Buckeye is so negative because normally I have a positive outlook but I still haven't recovered from these last two seasons. I still have a terrible taste in my mouth. Wow. Now that I am thoroughly depressed and I depressed all of you, I think I will go watch a Buckeye tape. I don't call myself Buckeyes#1 for nothing. They are actually making my name relevant again. It's been a few years.