I've heard all the "I'm open minded / logical / and still no miracles happen" stuff, and I'm really curious how things would go down if y'all actually started to see "miracles."

enter hypothetical universe 100047: (in this universe, what I say below happens, any arguments comparing it to our universe are invalid. kthx.)

This universe is exactly the same as this one - but some surprising stuff happens:

Let's say I found a way to ask God for healing for amputees in a way that he answers.So, I'm able to heal amputees by asking God / Jesus to heal them - and their limbs regrow in about a minute -- causing them to gain weight and mass proportionate to the newly regrown appendage.

So, I go around healing everybody who's missing limbs. It's scientifically proven, tested, to the satisfaction of everyone. Limbs are regrowing in accordance with what's written in the bible.

Then to make things clear, I go around repeating every miracle in the bible - 'cept the once where ppl got killed, cuz I'm not into killing. They're proven. Mountains move, I walk on water and stop storms and turn the sun to darkness, raise George Washington from the dead, spawn entire planets from nothing and populate them in days, predict a 100 digit random number 100s of times in a row, etc...

Does this prove that God exists?

1. You could say "aliens with super technology altering quantum states magically make this happen in accordance with the bible to make it seem like the bible is true."(This would be curious. How can you prove God isn't an multi-dimentional alien overlord?)

2. You could say "People have always possessed this power, and you've simply unlocked it using codes written into the bible - it's not true, religious documents are just the most popular way to transfer extremely powerful information."

Well, if evolution is the case, you're admitting that you believe that somehow beings evolve to higher levels of consciousness can alter the universe tele-kinetically. (in this case, we could design a biological super computer that could make entire real planets or spawn people.)

3. Say that we're all just part of a supercomputer simulation, and this stuff is just part of the game... and winners who can believe in the bible get super powers.(once again, this doesn't prove that "God" doesn't exist)

4: Believe the bible and God is real, and satan has been working his hardest to keep people from finding the truth... and inventing all sorts of ways around people actually believing in God.(in this case, you'd have to sift out all the lies you've been believing and find the truth like I did)

Kind of just proved the point that only by providing the impossible could you make anyone believe. It's like a cheap bargaining chip to offer someone, like a salesman offering a car you can get on the premise you'll believe whatever it is they'll sell you. I'm not buying it, I'm sorry.

However, to play nice; if you did all those things and all scientific reasoning was left absoultely dumbfounded and lost as per an explanation; then maybe I'd believe you had "Godlike" powers, but it still wouldn't make me believe.

I suppose the only thing that would make me believe at this moment in my life is if the supposed almighty showed and proved to me they were God.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:54:43 PM by Gohavesomefun »

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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. ” A. Einstein

1. You could say "aliens with super technology altering quantum states magically make this happen in accordance with the bible to make it seem like the bible is true."

I'd choose this option because we know life exists in the universe (us) and we have no evidence of gods. So the most reasonable assumption is that an advanced life form is helping you with the healings.

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(This would be curious. How can you prove God isn't an multi-dimentional alien overlord?)

Well it might be though. I'd have to be presented with specific evidence as to what entity is causing these hearings. If they are happening then they are happening - I couldn't deny the truth of it. But why couldn't the god show itself if it is presumably acting in a way to remove faith?

In such a situation, I'd gladly concede that you had the powers attributed to many gods. That still wouldn't definitively prove the existence of the Christian god, or indeed any god.

That being said, if your hypothetical universe has everything being the same except (presumably) Biblegod being real and giving you these powers, a skeptic atheist like me still has some problems with accepting his existence. Those being the same ones I have in this universe, primarily: where the f*ck has he been all this time?

4: Believe the bible and God is real, and satan has been working his hardest to keep people from finding the truth... and inventing all sorts of ways around people actually believing in God.(in this case, you'd have to sift out all the lies you've been believing and find the truth like I did)

How is Satan, in Christian mythology a created being no less than I, able to thwart the will of his creator? The story of Job makes it clear that in that instance, god let Satan destroy Job's livelihood, health and family, just to make a point. God having that kind of casual cruelty fits the observed universe and human history far more than an omni-benevolent god who stays unseen and undetected, never helping his followers more than random chance can explain.

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

Indeed, I would not bow to this god if it made itself known. It would then have to show itself worthy of any sort of respect. Perhaps this god could clear up all of the confusion created by the Bible, and truly show that it was misrepresented, and lies were written by ignorant humans.

For that matter, why couldn't such a powerful god just make me worship it?

If you were able to move mountains and walk on water, I would certainly concede that you (or some force or being enabling you to do these things) was amazingly powerful.

But while I might be impressed by this power, I would not be inclined to worship either you, or the force or being enabling you to do this stuff. I am awed by the ability of elephants to create roads through jungles, moving trees aside with their trunks. I am also awed by ants, who are able to lift things so much bigger than their little bodies, and transport them huge distances, relative to their size. But I don't worship these amazing creatures.

I can respect raw power. But before I could respect an omniscient, omnipotent being who has caused, or at least allowed, so much pain, I would need a really good explanation. Not a "Satan did it" explanation, and not a "god is testing you" explanation, and not a "god doesn't give you any burdens you can't bear" explanation, and not a "it is the free will" explanation, and not an "Adam and Eve sinned so babies are dying in the Sudan" explanation.

I can't imagine what sort of an explanation would satisfy me. But it would have to be pretty damn impressive.

This is how I picture a theist performing to get me to believe. When I was a christian, I liked this movie. There is still something about it I admire. Maybe because John Denver sticks to his guns, no matter how he is treated. The more I agree with the argument that there absolutely is no god, the more disappointed I am in theist's arguments. It becomes so simple, so natural, but so much more amazing without god. Impossible miracles? Exactly. Oops - I compared it to the real universe - sorry. Invalid.

I think I might be more pissed. So God turns out to be real. Why did He let kids starve to death in Africa for year after year?. Why did 6 million Jews have to die horrible deaths in Nazi camps? What is wrong with this God and why would I want to worship It?

I suppose the only thing that would make me believe at this moment in my life is if the supposed almighty showed and proved to me they were God.

But how would that be done?

In your fantasy scenario miracles are being done, but how? As far as I can tell, that remains unknown. They just seem to be similar to other alleged miracles as described in the bible. In that hypothetical scenario, we would just be witnessing things that boggled our minds. And that is not evidence of anything but our own ignorance. Thus, we still are not any closer to seeing yhwh.

That is the problem you have when you have defined an entity in such a way that it is completely incoherent. yhwh is supposedly perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, outside space, abstract. Does any of that add up? To me, it doesn't. But even assuming it does, how could you or I verify any of those qualities if one day someone claiming to be God (capital G) showed up?

What is a perfect being and how would I know it if I saw it?

How could I verify omnipotence? It could demonstrate extreme power, but maybe there are things it cannot do that it is concealing from me?

How could I verify omniscience? It could demonstrate vast knowledge, but if it got something wrong that humans don't know about, there is no way we would know.

How could I verify eternal?

It could be possible that this definition of yhwh is inaccurate. Perhaps yhwh is a powerful being that has powers we cannot understand, but they are not limitless. And he knows far more than us, but not everything. And he can live a really, really long time, but is not eternal. Then, what is he? Not God (capital G). Maybe not even a god (small g). Or, worst of all, maybe all this god can do is manipulate our thoughts and make us feel sure it is god.

My advice, if you meet someone claiming to be god, flee. He cannot be trusted and we could be fooled very easily. Wasn't that the point of Star Trek 5?

I suppose the only thing that would make me believe at this moment in my life is if the supposed almighty showed and proved to me they were God.

But how would that be done?

*snip*

That is the problem you have when you have defined an entity in such a way that it is completely incoherent. yhwh is supposedly perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, outside space, abstract. Does any of that add up? To me, it doesn't. But even assuming it does, how could you or I verify any of those qualities if one day someone claiming to be God (capital G) showed up?

What is a perfect being and how would I know it if I saw it?

How could I verify omnipotence? It could demonstrate extreme power, but maybe there are things it cannot do that it is concealing from me?

How could I verify omniscience? It could demonstrate vast knowledge, but if it got something wrong that humans don't know about, there is no way we would know.

How could I verify eternal?

Excellent points, screwtape. For it to be possible for a god and definitive, verifiable evidence of that god's divine nature to exist, both the universe and human perception would have to be radically different.

And logicfaith, the universe you postulate, as you've described it, doesn't sound different enough for me to accept the existence of god even if I were in it.

Believers in the real world insist we take these things on faith, or desperately try to find "evidence" (from Jesus appearing on toast to the "written code" of DNA) of their deity outside their heads. But the evidence isn't there, and faith is no substitute for actually getting things done.

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Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

That answer it would be evidence, not proof. It would certainly make me far more inclined to listen to and consider faith based viewpoints as valid. I would certainly be likely to become an agnostic theist to begin with, as there is now a demostration that standard empirism is flawed and the supernatural does exist.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

That answer it would be evidence, not proof. It would certainly make me far more inclined to listen to and consider faith based viewpoints as valid. I would certainly be likely to become an agnostic theist to begin with, as there is now a demostration that standard empirism is flawed and the supernatural does exist.

Seems like the same thing to me Hatter23!

Even if there was proof, imaciulate evidence; it wouldn't make me religous .I'd want to see what this God said or did if it could present itself to us in someway.

The whole question seems to have that underdone "if religion is right" rather than "If God Exists".

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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. ” A. Einstein

There are some questions that are pointless to speculate on even as hypotheticals -- at least, if you intend to subsequently apply them to the real world in any way afterward. If three Victoria's Secret models told me they wanted to spend a night of wild passion with me, would I cheat on my wife? There's not much point in spending much time -- if, indeed, any at all -- on such a hypothetical inasmuch as there is essentially no chance of it ever happening (I am highly unlikely ever to marry, and even more unlikely to have any Victoria's Secret models throwing themselves at me). And that's with a scenario that we know to be theoretically possible -- we can't even say that much with any certainty about amputees getting their limbs back.

So I guess my answer to your question is, I won't think about it until it ever actually happens, because unless and until it does, thinking about it would be a waste of time and a distraction from all the other things in my life that I want to give my attention to. There are nowhere near enough hours in the day even as it is for me to do all the things I want to do.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

They would have to make something impossible by all rights of science; possible.

Such as...? A thing could be possible and seem impossible because science is not quite right and we don't know it. Our own limitations would make recognizing whether something truly impossible was done, impossible.

You know, Penn and Teller do seemingly impossible things all the time and I cannot tell how they do it. They did a mini series years ago where the toured the world to see how other cultures did magic.[1] They found a street magician in India and played along with his act. Then they realized they guy was trying to make people believe he was actually doing magic and conning them out of money, food, trinkets, etc. They had an ethical problem with that and stopped helping him.

But my point was, people believed it. And if unsophisticated people believed other people can do magic, when in fact, they are not, then it is likely to me that even sophisticated people might be tricked into believing a powerful or advanced being is doing magic when it, in fact, is not.

They would have to make something impossible by all rights of science; possible.

Such as...? A thing could be possible and seem impossible because science is not quite right and we don't know it. Our own limitations would make recognizing whether something truly impossible was done, impossible.

You know, Penn and Teller do seemingly impossible things all the time and I cannot tell how they do it. They did a mini series years ago where the toured the world to see how other cultures did magic.[1] They found a street magician in India and played along with his act. Then they realized they guy was trying to make people believe he was actually doing magic and conning them out of money, food, trinkets, etc. They had an ethical problem with that and stopped helping him.

But my point was, people believed it. And if unsophisticated people believed other people can do magic, when in fact, they are not, then it is likely to me that even sophisticated people might be tricked into believing a powerful or advanced being is doing magic when it, in fact, is not.

I thought it was clear I was refering to something we know right now to be true and nothing else could contridict that. Thats the sort of impossible to possible I'm refering to. Simply changing anything in science that's deemed impossible, right down to raw equations (simply put 2+2 would equal 5).

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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. ” A. Einstein

No, a god can't do that (make 2 + 2 = 5). That's logic, and even Christian scholars would say that god cannot do the logically impossible. He might be able to change the charge on electrons or some such thing, but he can't change how logic works, even according to theists that understand these things.

No, a god can't do that (make 2 + 2 = 5). That's logic, and even Christian scholars would say that god cannot do the logically impossible. He might be able to change the charge on electrons or some such thing, but he can't change how logic works, even according to theists that understand these things.

So you're saying God has limitations? Not the almighty, all powerful creator I often hear about.

That's the point really.

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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. ” A. Einstein

Let's say I found a way to ask God for healing for amputees in a way that he answers.So, I'm able to heal amputees by asking God / Jesus to heal them - and their limbs regrow in about a minute -- causing them to gain weight and mass proportionate to the newly regrown appendage......Does this prove that God exists? .....What would you choose? I'm really curious what y'all really think.

As has been stated, all you have reaslly shown is that you have powers. Maybe you got them from Yahweh, but maybe you got them from Loki who is laughing himself to pieces at all the sudden converts to the fake religion of Christianity.

Now....if you were to show that:(a) you were appealing to Yahweh using ONLY those methods detailed in the Bible, and(b) any other person using those same methods got the same results, and(c) any person using very similar methods but subsituting the name of another god got NO result.....

...then I would indeed accept - at least provisionally - the existence of Yahweh. Then, of course, we move on to the questions about his character, actions, morality, wothiness of worship.......and so on.

But one person doing miracles proves nothing more than "that person is able to do miracles".

I've thought about this myself - and even if you died and ended up in heaven - as described in the bible -- could you prove that it wasn't just an illusion that wasn't going to immediately end with an eternally playing rickrolled video for everybody who "believed" in God?

I'm guessing you'd have a really hard time proving this for certain. On the other side of things, there's always the argument "well, how can absolutely prove that the reasons you don't believe in God aren't deceptions from satan?"

I don't think people can prove that God exists or not. I don't think you could prove whether or not it's best to believe in God or not.

I think that given sufficient positive evidence supporting belief in God or against believing would really be all that folks can do.

So, I'm doing a little project: the open "letter to God," in which we address a letter to God, and detail exactly what we'd need as sufficient positive evidence supporting belief in him, and give this letter a creative short film treatment, or just a written form post so that we can give it to folks who think they're proselytizing is genius and that people who don't decide to believe in God are doing so out of sheer stupidity (and sin!).

What is the one characteristic that God has that another all-powerful being would not have? The God is the being that is credited with creating the universe.

So what if we devised a scientific device that allowed us to peer into the past and watch the God create the universe? I would then have to say that for the same reason I agree that the Andromeda galaxy exists (directly viewed through a scientific instrument), I must now agree that God exists.

What is the one characteristic that God has that another all-powerful being would not have? The God is the being that is credited with creating the universe.

So what if we devised a scientific device that allowed us to peer into the past and watch the God create the universe? I would then have to say that for the same reason I agree that the Andromeda galaxy exists (directly viewed through a scientific instrument), I must now agree that God exists.

Would I study it? Yes, of course. Would I whorship it? Probably not.

do you worship naturally occurring events and objects or do you observe them?

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Fuck the Bible, you can't even eat in it.

First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.

I've thought about this myself - and even if you died and ended up in heaven - as described in the bible -- could you prove that it wasn't just an illusion that wasn't going to immediately end with an eternally playing rickrolled video for everybody who "believed" in God?

I'm guessing you'd have a really hard time proving this for certain.

I've never had any time for solipcism, because in the end it doesn't matter. Whether this life is real, or whether it is a Matrix-induced state, the effects on me are the same. If I do not eat, I experience hunger. If I fall over, I experience pain. With no way of telling which environment I am actually in, the way I react will be the same.

So the issue of "ultimately proving" is quite irrelevant for me. As you say, "sufficient positice evidence" is quite enough. I can't PROVE that fairies do not exist - but there is sufficient proof they do not to make it ridiculous for me to leave milk out every night for them "just in case".

I don't think you could prove whether or not it's best to believe in God or not.

In the sense of "afterlife rewards", I agree. But you could certainly study effects on health, relationship success, happiness, and so forth, and compare results between believers of different stripe, and unbelievers.

That might be an important question - if, after much study, it was established that a certain type of belief were (on balance) overall better for the world than unbelief, would - should - we accept that rational position and offer our support to that faith?