The last few of these I tried to read were a tangled mess of rabbit holes, weakly constructed "arguments", and logical fallacies; with the supporting "evidence" being cherry picked, and/or where opinion was passed off as "fact". That said, this one really has me curious, but I can't wade through that again. So I hate to be "that guy", but can someone summarize this for me?

The last few of these I tried to read were a tangled mess of rabbit holes, weakly constructed "arguments", and logical fallacies; with the supporting "evidence" being cherry picked, and/or where opinion was passed off as "fact". That said, this one really has me curious, but I can't wade through that again. So I hate to be "that guy", but can someone summarize this for me?

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Based on a newspaper report from 1921 which advertised something to the effect of "come see jiu-jitsu games featuring Jacintho Ferro and his student Oscar Gracie, with referee Mitsuyo Maeda."

It's assumed that "Oscar Gracie" was a typo for Carlos Gracie as there was no Oscar Gracie at the time. And Jacintho was a student of Maeda's. Which means Carlos would have been the student of Jacintho.

I’m not surprised, when Carlos died, the Helio mythology went into overdrive.

When Carlos was alive, it was stated that he learned directly from Maeda but even then, only for a handful of years.

Now it looks like Carlos or “Oscar” assuming it was a typo, learned from a fellow Brazilian. At this point, we’re all used to the cloudy origins of GJJ and it’s funny how little we hear about the Fadda lineage.

Based on a newspaper report from 1921 which advertised something to the effect of "come see jiu-jitsu games featuring Jacintho Ferro and his student Oscar Gracie, with referee Mitsuyo Maeda."

It's assumed that "Oscar Gracie" was a typo for Carlos Gracie as there was no Oscar Gracie at the time. And Jacintho was a student of Maeda's. Which means Carlos would have been the student of Jacintho.

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So now we're questioning an entire lineage based on a very old newspaper article that may or may not have a misprint. That's a large leap to make. It would also make large portions of Reila Gracie's book wrong at best or outright lies at worst. Considering all the supporting evidence she seems to have, and based on all of the leaps one needs to make to assume everything Reila put forward is wrong because of a single article, I'm going to go back to ignoring these for a bit.

We should all thank Robert Drysdale for searching for the truth of who was the first Brazilian to do jiu jitsu, if space travel really happened, and how his pee ended up with steroids. This man is on a mission for truth, honesty and integrity.

So now we're questioning an entire lineage based on a very old newspaper article that may or may not have a misprint. That's a large leap to make. It would also make large portions of Reila Gracie's book wrong at best or outright lies at worst. Considering all the supporting evidence she seems to have, and based on all of the leaps one needs to make to assume everything Reila put forward is wrong because of a single article, I'm going to go back to ignoring these for a bit.

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No one is questioning a entire linage, people were just trying to call out Rorion on his BS. It was him who started all the " myths of Gracie Jiu Jitsu", Carlos was one of hundreds who learned Judo/Ju Jutsu from Maeda and dozens of other judoka including Geo Omari, Satake, Takeo Iano, in the early twentieth century. While most of the students of these early pioneers were absorbed into judo, some continued on there own and what we know today as BJJ/GJJ was born. Carlos and Helio did put there own spin on there product they were selling,GJJ, but they did not go over the top like Rorion did with his infomercials, Gracie in action tapes.

George Mehdi has an interesting take on the Gracies if anyone wants to read about his thoughts. I myself am indifferent about the Gracie history an think it is in the middle were the truth lives. I am under Denelison Pimenta GFTeam , i really like all the history and try to sift through the bs at times but in the end, does it really matter? When i started Judo in 06, all we knew was Kano, our coach and maybe his, there is no linage to speak of, you just learn Judo.

on a side note, this is something i have always wondered about, Franca was awarded a Black belt who in-turn awarded one to Fadda, the Gracies only had white and Blue until 1967 when the currant belt system was created.... just something i have always thought of as interesting, two of the first generation Brazilians and one was awarded a black belt, witch was standard for an advanced practitioner and one was not.

So now we're questioning an entire lineage based on a very old newspaper article that may or may not have a misprint. That's a large leap to make. It would also make large portions of Reila Gracie's book wrong at best or outright lies at worst. Considering all the supporting evidence she seems to have, and based on all of the leaps one needs to make to assume everything Reila put forward is wrong because of a single article, I'm going to go back to ignoring these for a bit.

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This is my take as well.

It's interesting research, but the conclusions drawn seem way out of proportion to the evidence. It assumes Oscar = Carlos "most likely." It further supports that by saying that once another student of Jacintho said that "some people" exaggerated about training with Maeda, and that he must "clearly" have meant Carlos when he said "some people."

Any possibility that a random news article from 100 years ago could have gotten a small detail wrong? I mean if they could not even get the name right between Carlos and Oscar, could they have possibly mixed up who was the ref and who was the teacher? Funny that when Oscar Gracie is cited (who is not known to exist), this is handwaved away as a mere typo. But when it says Oscar really trained under Jacintho, that has to be considered to be an accurate fact.

I imagine 100 years from now someone looking back at our current news articles, seeing some local fluff piece written about a BJJ teacher calling him a "karate master" in error, and then everyone coming up with wild conspiracy theories about how BJJ did not even exist in 2018 and it was really called karate.

No one is questioning a entire linage, people were just trying to call out Rorion on his BS. It was him who started all the " myths of Gracie Jiu Jitsu", Carlos was one of hundreds who learned Judo/Ju Jutsu from Maeda and dozens of other judoka including Geo Omari, Satake, Takeo Iano, in the early twentieth century. While most of the students of these early pioneers were absorbed into judo, some continued on there own and what we know today as BJJ/GJJ was born. Carlos and Helio did put there own spin on there product they were selling,GJJ, but they did not go over the top like Rorion did with his infomercials, Gracie in action tapes.

George Mehdi has an interesting take on the Gracies if anyone wants to read about his thoughts. I myself am indifferent about the Gracie history an think it is in the middle were the truth lives. I am under Denelison Pimenta GFTeam , i really like all the history and try to sift through the bs at times but in the end, does it really matter? When i started Judo in 06, all we knew was Kano, our coach and maybe his, there is no linage to speak of, you just learn Judo.

on a side note, this is something i have always wondered about, Franca was awarded a Black belt who in-turn awarded one to Fadda, the Gracies only had white and Blue until 1967 when the currant belt system was created.... just something i have always thought of as interesting, two of the first generation Brazilians and one was awarded a black belt, witch was standard for an advanced practitioner and one was not.

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I think it is important to understand that to the Gracies of the Rorion side of the family they are specifically practicing the art of Helio Gracie, which is Gracie Jiujitsu. To this side of the family, the art and combat sport from any other lineage is not the same thing.

To Rorion, Rickson, Valente Bros and so on whatever Fadda, Franca and Geo Omari were not doing "Gracie Jiujitsu". I can't speak for them obviously but I would even venture to say that they probably would say that the art of Helio is different than what Carlos would have taught to Helio.

I think it is important to understand that to the Gracies of the Rorion side of the family they are specifically practicing the art of Helio Gracie, which is Gracie Jiujitsu. To this side of the family, the art and combat sport from any other lineage is not the same thing.

To Rorion, Rickson, Valente Bros and so on whatever Fadda, Franca and Geo Omari were not doing "Gracie Jiujitsu". I can't speak for them obviously but I would even venture to say that they probably would say that the art of Helio is different than what Carlos would have taught to Helio.

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I get your point but i do no believe GJJ is really that much different than BJJ, they may have different concepts such as GJJ has historically placed a greater emphasis on self defense and the strengths of Helios style, and i understand that the linage of Helio says there art is different, but in my opinion, it is more similar than different and in the end the desired outcome is the same.

That's literally what it means when someone says "I learned x art from Y teacher" and someone else comes along and says "no - you learned x art from z teacher". You're questioning their lineage and where they came from.

Plus, you don't seem to understand which side of the family you're disagreeing with - as Edison points out.

This is my take as well.

It's interesting research, but the conclusions drawn seem way out of proportion to the evidence. It assumes Oscar = Carlos "most likely." It further supports that by saying that once another student of Jacintho said that "some people" exaggerated about training with Maeda, and that he must "clearly" have meant Carlos when he said "some people."

Any possibility that a random news article from 100 years ago could have gotten a small detail wrong? I mean if they could not even get the name right between Carlos and Oscar, could they have possibly mixed up who was the ref and who was the teacher? Funny that when Oscar Gracie is cited (who is not known to exist), this is handwaved away as a mere typo. But when it says Oscar really trained under Jacintho, that has to be considered to be an accurate fact.

I imagine 100 years from now someone looking back at our current news articles, seeing some local fluff piece written about a BJJ teacher calling him a "karate master" in error, and then everyone coming up with wild conspiracy theories about how BJJ did not even exist in 2018 and it was really called karate.

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This guy gets it. I get that some Gracies haven't always been on the up-and-up, and that some family members haven't always been the most forthright people (inevitable in a family the size of some rural U.S. towns), but if you're going to try and undermine them in the fashion that these reports seem to want to do ... you need to come with something better than ... whatever this was.

Another point I'd like to make is that during this period of martial arts, it was pretty common to consider your "lineage" as starting with someone other than your immediate "instructor".

To put it into a more modern example, imagine you are a white belt training at a school with a big name black belt. That black belt teaches ore or two of your classes a week, but then a purple or brown teach your beginner class the other two times a week.

Do you go then consider your lineage to be via So-and-so Purple Belt or do you consider your lineage to begin with Big Name Black Belt?

I'm not saying that is exactly the scenario with Carlos/Jacintho/Maeda, because I wasn't alive back then. But just that what I described has been very common through martial arts history. So it's entirely plausible that Jacintho did provide instruction to Carlos, along with many other people. But if Carlos took any classes or seminars taught by Maeda then what I described would pretty much be in line with a lot of martial arts of the day.

Another point I'd like to make is that during this period of martial arts, it was pretty common to consider your "lineage" as starting with someone other than your immediate "instructor".

To put it into a more modern example, imagine you are a white belt training at a school with a big name black belt. That black belt teaches ore or two of your classes a week, but then a purple or brown teach your beginner class the other two times a week.

Do you go then consider your lineage to be via So-and-so Purple Belt or do you consider your lineage to begin with Big Name Black Belt?

I'm not saying that is exactly the scenario with Carlos/Jacintho/Maeda, because I wasn't alive back then. But just that what I described has been very common through martial arts history. So it's entirely plausible that Jacintho did provide instruction to Carlos, along with many other people. But if Carlos took any classes or seminars taught by Maeda then what I described would pretty much be in line with a lot of martial arts of the day.

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Its interesting how important lineage is in BJJ; I can't think of any other martial art or combat sport with anything like it. In judo and wrestling people will talk about who their coaches were (typically different ones at different stages, ie kids coaches, high school coaches etc), but you never hear anyone making a chain of coaching lineages in judo or wrestling, and I suspect the same is true for boxing.

In a way its kind of interesting to hear about lineage (like having a family tree); I wonder why lineage is so important in BJJ but not in other styles ... I sometimes think it'd be nice to have a judo and wrestling lineage (and hockey for that matter), just out of human interest.

My first guess is that in most styles you start pretty young (in judo, wrestling and boxing typically under the age of 12 and often even at about 8), and so naturally go through a number of coaches as you get older, since its pretty much impossible to run a class with everything from 8 year olds to adults in it. That means you don't have one main coach, and so your 'lineage' would be a very complex spiderweb of coaches.

The second thing I think of is how intermixed judo and wrestling are; people take techniques from everywhere, so coaches don't really have a well defined style - a good coach takes looks at everything out there, and tries to match it with individual students, having different ones do very different things. I suspect this is becoming the case with BJJ too - if a technique works, or a training method works, grab it (as Piscasso said, mediocre artists borrow, great artists steal - meaning they make other people's techniques their own).

Another point I'd like to make is that during this period of martial arts, it was pretty common to consider your "lineage" as starting with someone other than your immediate "instructor".

To put it into a more modern example, imagine you are a white belt training at a school with a big name black belt. That black belt teaches ore or two of your classes a week, but then a purple or brown teach your beginner class the other two times a week.

Do you go then consider your lineage to be via So-and-so Purple Belt or do you consider your lineage to begin with Big Name Black Belt?

I'm not saying that is exactly the scenario with Carlos/Jacintho/Maeda, because I wasn't alive back then. But just that what I described has been very common through martial arts history. So it's entirely plausible that Jacintho did provide instruction to Carlos, along with many other people. But if Carlos took any classes or seminars taught by Maeda then what I described would pretty much be in line with a lot of martial arts of the day.

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You grab the one who is more famous for business reason.

He'll, you have affiliate of att that keep claiming Carlson Gracie lineage.. not sure how the loyal Carlson Gracie affiliates would feel about it.

The history is interesting. And I appreciate seeing past the Rorion myth. But I never understood why people are trying to disprove they trained with Maeda... because why lie about it?

In modern times particularly in the US no one had any idea who he was , so it's not like his name was bringing any credibility to the table. They could have said Jacintho Ferro was a total badass and they learned from him... either way.