Re: Saionji and the green monster

I always saw Saionji and Juri as being similar in that they both were madly in love with the security and idealism of the past. Where they differ is as you said -- Juri wishes to disprove the existence of miracles so as to give herself a reason to not hold such an emotional attachment in such high esteem, whereas Saionji wishes for such purity once more as a shred of hope.

And, as we've said, those desires are completely contradictory to their true natures.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Giovanna wrote:

Seconded a ton. There's something about him, like he's a lamb being led to the slaughter, but it's the only solution he sees that life is offering him. How often does that happen though, that we miss a thousand other options because we see the world a certain way? Mikage is the same way, which I always found interesting given the strange meeting between the two of them. He only sees the world in logic and in terms of sacrifices and bloody hands, and so he's blind to the simpler solutions that actually work.

You've just hit upon the reason why Mikage is my absolute favorite character in Utena. Mikage is the one who steps out of the shadows and says look here, everyone, I'm the monster under the bed that you all are afraid of at night. I'm the person you are deathly afraid of becoming, the person who has given up both past and future and is stuck here in an eternal time warp, playing this game under the End of the World's thumb with a boy who doesn't exist because I've willingly given myself over to the fact that miracles DON'T exist and love is NOT real.

And then in the end when he finally tries to snap out of it - when Utena appears and he goes wildly about juxtaposing her with Tokiko, he lets go of the shadowed life he's been leading and tries to become someone. Unfortunately, it's too late, because he's already pledged himself to Akio....kind of like selling your soul to the devil, I suppose. In the end, unlike Anthy, Mikage couldn't break out of his coffin.

....is there a Mikage thread and I just missed it?

Giovanna wrote:

With Saionji it's always that he wants to go back to childish thoughts and find comfort there. Juri...is the opposite then? Is her need to disprove miracles an attempt to prove the adult reality that the show works so hard to tell us is wrong? Why? Does she think this is how one grows up? Or are they looking for the exact same thing but completely different ways. Juri hopes and wants to destroy that hope so it won't plague her anymore. Saionji hopes and aches to have that hope justified.

To put it another way, is the person that believes in god entirely because it hurts not to any more or less misled than the person that doesn't believe in god entirely because it hurts to? It's not that Saionji and Juri are asking the wrong questions, or barking up the wrong tree. It's that they're doing these things for the wrong reasons, trying to get the wrong things out of it.

I never liked Juri until this last rewatch of the series, and then I saw what an amazing character she really is. I think you've hit the jackpot when you say that Juri fights to disprove miracles because she believes that's how one becomes an adult. When Shiori betrayed her - betrayed Juri's love for her - Juri decided at that moment that THAT is what "adults" do. Saionji I think is the same way - when Touga betrayed him, he decided then and there that all this had happened because Touga was an 'adult' and he wasn't. But neither of their revelations turn out the way they hope. Both Juri and Saionji spend the series searching for a link back to their childhood - a way to start over, so to speak.

When Utena brings about the revolution, they're able to go back and make peace with themselves.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

OMG you guys. All of you. Such profound amazing analisys. I'm seeing things I've never seen in the series before because of all of this input. And I love Saionji more now, and I understand Juri more. I love you guys. Thanks.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Here goes a quick question:

Why is Saionji in tears during the opening roll? You can really see it now in the remaster. Where the others are determined (with the exception of Touga, who is smirking) his tears seem rather out of place.

I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Well, in that sequence of shots it's a contrast of say, Miki being adorable, Touga being smug and seductive, and Saionji--in the middle of an attack. The tears I think are frustration, the sort he'd shed in a losing battle, in the heat of the moment, where they're allowed because he won't even realize they're happening. He's crying because whatever force he's putting into that attack, he knows it's not going to be enough.

Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade. ~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

Re: Saionji and the green monster

minervana wrote:

I always thought it was interesting that Saionji is missing for most of the Black Rose Arc. Touga, too.

Well, he's hiding in Wakaba's dorm for most of it, so there isn't any logical way to have the cast bump into him until her BRS episode. Touga is moping both because it is fittin gfor his character, acts a catalyst for Nanami, and because his Japanese VA was out of commission.

Re: Saionji and the green monster

I'M SORRY TO NECRO, BUT IT IS FOR THE GREATER GOOD. "GREATER GOOD" being "hey I wanna talk about this thing I didn't really see anyone talking about and I don't want to make a topic on it because I'm a neat freak who likes things clean and organized". You know, GOOD.

So do you remember the episode where Akio and Touga take Saionji on a ride, right? During which Saionji is freaking out at first, big time, but as soon as he shows up at Anthy's rose garden he's completely different? And well, an idiot? More of an idiot? Telling everyone he's a different person now and shit?k so ive been wonderin' if he'd lost virginity thenBY WHICH I MEAN, of course they DID do something to him, look at the guy he's so high he can't stop that stupid smiling, but I was always under the impression that the reason he thinks he's become a real smart guy is because he thinks he's an adult now. Why I think he thinks* he's adult now? Well it's because one of the Akiomobiles was there. Akiomobiles symbolise (fake) adulthood. What do adult people do? They can ride a car, naturally, and can have sex The rest is like "only two things come from Texas", we can see he's standing beside the car, but he has no keys, "so that kinda narrows it down". though he could be doin taxes now i dunno. IVE SEEN THE WORLD, TENJOU, AND IT HAS MORE NUMBERS THAN YOU AND I CAN HANDLE.I'm also pretty sure the car is a symbol since no one questions why the fuck did Saionji brought a whole car. And it's not like we're not supposed to question it, the camera keeps bringing it out! Utena asks "and how are you different?" and the camera focuses on the car when Saionji's like, "can't you see?". Man, that's sad. For him, the phantom car of Great Accomplishments and Reached Thresholds is solid enough to lean on, but not solid enough for others to even notice. Aww.Anyway, I call this theory "Operation: Pluck Saionji's Green Leaves".

...yeah, I'm more or less kidding. But still, I think there's a truth to that, too. With the suggestive visuals of stupid sexy Touga (disheveled hair, unbuttoned uniform, the Polishing A Car With His Fingertips) and how clearly dazed Saionji was after... and the fact that after this episode, he's suddenly okay with hanging out and posing suggestively with both Akio and Touga... like, can you imagine Saionji from the Student Counsil Saga showing off his abs just like that? Actually, there was one time where he went to unbutton the uniform - and it was only to take the diary out and he seemed totally clueless why Utena-Anthy covered her eyes.But one Akiomobile ride later and he can't keep the damn thing on. Especially with Touga.

tl;dr Saionji went on a ride with a stranger and woke up the next day without his V-card. Let that be a lesson for you all.

*i wish i could put more "I think-he thinks" there

P.S.: I also noticed, vehicles as a means to bring Wasabi and Ketchup together show up pretty often. A bike from childhood - Touga drives, Saionji sits behind like a total shoujo girl, a bike from childhood but at cemetery - Touga is sitting on it, but Saionji stands beside. Then - nothing, but suddenly, Akiomobile happens and they're on a backseat together, while Akio drives, and after that T and S rediscover their passion for driving things together. A motorcycle*, where Touga drives, but fails to impress Saionji, a yet another bike where Touga drives yet again but it seems that he's actually trying hard working for two and works up a sweat (without going anywhere), while Saionji isn't just sitting there admiring him/scoffing at him, but leans of his driver, enjoying himself while Touga pedals like he's trying to lose weight after Christmas. And then Saionji ghostrides the Akio-whip in the last duel - ha-ha, actually he doesn't do anything like usual, but then finally gets to steer, but he has to do it while still sitting in this stupid cab thing and also he only does it because Touga's busy holding the sword. But the jist is, he gets to first experience pleasure of not doing anything, then the joy of actually doing something together with his friend! It's like Saionji rediscovering his place with Touga and what's friendship actually is like. Yay!

*out of all driving together scenes, this is my favorite. there's nothing that i dont love about this scene. It's strangely adorable and for the first time, I felt like he and Touga are finally on the same-ish level. I wonder if Saionji's "man that ride sucks you're awful at this aren't you?" means that he can't believe the great Touga did something and it didn't filled him with jelousy and self-loathing? Also, "I hate not being in control and I hate to allow someone deep into my heart"? What was this about? Kind of non-sequitur. Which means "im too stoopid to figure this out" but yeah. akiomobile. a vehicle of great possibilities... an extension of it's master indeed...

Re: Saionji and the green monster

Saonji is okay, but he's not one of my favorite characters. For whatever reason, I'm just not all that keen on most of the male characters of Utena. I love pretty much all the female cast, but I can't say I'm a big fan of any of the men except for Mikage, who is pretty awesome, and Miki, who is too adorable not to like. Akio I just love to hate, Touga has some interesting development but is still an asshole to me, same with Ruka although I do like the twist with Ruka's character at the end.

I never did like Saonji's abuse of Anthy, even knowing all of Anthy's character and the fact that she's far from as innocent as she seems at first glance. It makes me sad that some people would say she "deserved" to be hit, no one deserves to be hit, and in spite of a lot of her actions, Anthy is still very much an abuse victim. Anthy is like the representation of someone truly stuck in the cycle of abuse, both a victim AND a perpetrator. That's why I love Anthy so, one minute I almost want to hate her for something seemingly malicious she does and the next minute I'm moved to tears by her plight. But I digress, since this is a Saonji thread, not an Anthy thread...

That said, I still appreciate how Saonji's character is developed throughout the series -- I like how he goes from seeming like just an asshole at first, to actually being one of the (relatively) more innocent characters towards the end. In fact, the one thing I can say in defense of his abuse (not that abuse is ever really excusable) is that ultimately, he is just a screwed-up kid -- I'd like to think it's something he grows out of and realizes is wrong. I also like his relationships with Touga and Wakaba, and his childhood scenes.