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Gerry, Thank you for letting me know that as I was previously unaware...yet this knowledge greatly surprises me based off of David's my understanding the greater issue.

Surely those who understand that the AMG works to collect donations for the board to partipate must also understand that to suggest that Europeans plan their own event would then be either asking board members who wish to donate funds to then choose between two groups? Or is there a suggestion that only he US AMG be open for donations.

I don't think David was suggesting what you are implying, that donors choose to donate for a European gathering vs a US gathering. However, he is privy to some confidential information that you are not, such as who donated to the GC, which members asked the GC for assistance, and how the donations were eventually distributed.

As to your last sentence, the first two gatherings were done in Toronto and Montreal (mainly because of this HIV ban issue), and the GC operated then as well.

I believe that David was echoing a previous suggestion in another thread to hold 2 AMGs. Personally, I think that would put a huge strain on the GC's capacity if only one GC was operational for two AMG events done on the same year in two very different locations.

Having said that, if Amsterdam becomes the location of choice based on the current votes, I would not be surprised to see someone initiating a mini-gathering organized in the US at a different time, which is not necessarily a bad idea, and definitely should not be looked at as an evil plan.

But I will say this, I would hope at least people would be consistent about it (which leads back to Jan's question...which is one that other people have voiced privately). If you won't set foot in the US because of the ban, then be consistent about it.

I am sorry, but that whole argument is just so flawed (although I do personally agree to an extent and always refuse to set foot in the US for any purpose – period – despite having a multiple entry class O visa that exempts me from the restrictions .. on account of the fact that money and the ability to generate wealth always overrides “public danger”).

Anyway, Back to Jan’s question then ..

Because Mela isn’t being evasive to verbal questioning when she visits friends and family, it is a whole different scenario to trying to hide the fact that she is going to meet up with a gang of people she met on a “discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS".

Even an innocent little question like “How do you know the people you are meeting?” is a potential minefield that simply doesn’t exist when you are visiting friends, going on holiday, shopping to jubilantly exploit the fact that the US$ is in freefall or on business and can give honest non-evasive answers to verbal questioning.

The giveaway isn’t that you are generally stressed (because that level of stress will show up in all your answers). It is that you are MORE stressed by certain types of questions (in this case, any questions relating to how you know the people you are meeting).

Personally, I have to say that I suspect that anyone who cannot see that somewhat crucial difference simply does not want to see it.

Hi MelaI may be missing something here but can you explain to me why it is different/easier to visit friends in the US than it is visiting with a group..and why are the questions so different..I'm finding it hard to see the difference.

AlsoGiven the first statement does this mean you won't be visiting friends in the US anymore..I'm just curious.

I haven't put a destination/vote forward yet because to be honest I've lost track of the original post..this has gone so off topic I don't know where it is anymore..so I'm withholding my vote until it gets back on track.

Or maybe I will just join Matty in Sydney or Vladivostok... HugsJan

JanI didn't say the line of questioning was different when I visited for AMG; I said it was harder to sidestep. As Chris pointed out, it was the line of questioning that was more difficult to sidestep when visiting for AMG. When I visited Jonathan in August I was asked questions such as:

Who was I visiting?How did I know them? (this question had my heart pounding the first time I visited!)Had I met them before? (as did this one!)What did they do for a living?

When I came for AMG I was asked similar questions as above plus:

Why was I visiting the US again after such a short time since my last visit?Where was I staying?

My thoughts on this matter are purely linked to AMG and the destinations being considered; after having been through the immigration checks a few times now, I can say that there was a difference in how I felt under questioning between when I visited a friend and when I visited for AMG.

I thought the difference would be obvious between personal visits to friends and an AMG gathering; a personal visit with friends is a private event whereas AMG is a publicised (internet) event of HIV+ people meeting up. So, to answer your question, yes I will still be making private visits to friends in the US (although I'm still loathed to be forced to lie on the immigration form) but I won't be attending another AMG there.

My vote for "any place that doesn't have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk" is specifically for AMG, because it is a publicised event for HIV+ people. I really don't understand why people don't seem to get the hypocrisy and the level of risk involved for non-US citizens.

As for the thread going off topic, I don't think it has. Despite it maybe not going as swimmingly as some may have hoped for, I actually think that the discussion is very much on topic. The topic is about destination votes; it’s just that some people have strong thoughts about which destinations should be under consideration.

Debra

PS: Vladivostok with Matty does sounds fun though...wherever that may be!

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/\___/\ /\__/\(=' . '=) (=' . '=)(,,,_ ,,,)/ (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

I'm very puzzled by much of this discussion. After spending just short of a week in San Fransisco with friends from across both ponds, I don't recall the subject of anyone feeling uncomfortable going through US Customs ever coming to the surface. Damn, Hermie does it all the time. Dame Jan has done it three years in a row. Now we are worried about being branded with the "Big F", a felon?

Actually Ric, this topic of conversation did come up on several separate occasions during AMG; me, Niki and Chris were asked about it by several other members and Niki also brought the matter up with others.

Just because Hermie and Jan have been lucky so far, doesn't mean their luck will continue. But to be honest, that isn't (and shouldn't be) the point.

Yes, I for one am worried about "being branded with the "Big F", a felon." Believe it or not, the way things stand with the US laws, it is actually a real risk for non-US citizens every time they enter the US, and more so when they enter for a publicised event for HIV+ folk.

And if you don't believe me, ask Alain (Cowandalehouse).

Why do I get the feeling that some folk here think that non-US folk are just being awkward?

Plus are there only a handful of members here who are actually bothered by the fact that many seem ok holding an event for HIV+ folk in a country that doesn't accept entry of folk with HIV??

Debra

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/\___/\ /\__/\(=' . '=) (=' . '=)(,,,_ ,,,)/ (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

But I will say this, I would hope at least people would be consistent about it (which leads back to Jan's question...which is one that other people have voiced privately). If you won't set foot in the US because of the ban, then be consistent about it.

Cliff; it’s not so much an all out ban on the US because of the restrictions (although I was tempted until I wanted to meet JK too badly!) but more an awareness and (I would have thought) understandable concern of the greater risk involved when attending an event specifically and publicly organized by and for HIV+ people.

I’m not against going to the US because of the laws (as inane and bigoted as they are); but I am against attending another publicized event for HIV+ people. Is it just me or do folks seem to be ignoring the fact that anything published on the internet is for public viewing? Hence, AMG is a publicized event.

The event was held outside the US for the first two years because of the ban, but no one seems to want to recognise that.

On reflection now, I do recognise that; but the 3rd AMG was held in the US, despite no change in the law.

The reason this is now becoming an issue is because the forums have become more diverse and there are more non-US citizens wishing to attend AMG. And this year - for me, Niki and Chris anyway - was our first experience. And the immigration experience sucked big time and frankly, we shouldn't have to go through that.

Debra

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/\___/\ /\__/\(=' . '=) (=' . '=)(,,,_ ,,,)/ (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

When I went to Montreal I was screened by a border patrol at customs. They asked me questions about who I was visiting? Why I was coming to Montreal? What was my purpose of my visit while I was there? To my questions being asked I replied was meeting a group for a gathering conference told them what hotel I was staying at and all in all it took more than 5 minutes to get through customs. The whole ordeal of going through customs is a bitch but they are there just doing there job. But also at the time I still did not have a passport to get into Canada due to the fact they did not ask for one then but now the laws have changed.

I hope you guys in the UK will not blame us for living in the US and having to live in a part that the goverment is so strict on border entrys. It is not our fought it is the damn politicians we get in office here.

I also wanted to let you know I had a great time meeting all of you in San Francisco and please come back and visit us anytime if you want you can even use my name to enter the states. I really love my new UK family that I have got to know in the last AMG.

im glad debra has managed to respond in this thread before i did. my response was no way near as polite.

i think i'll just leave it at that for the time being and hope that people understand how upsetting this is for me and for the others. at this point just want to give up entirely. im asking myself what is the point of me being a member of these forums when it would make it a damn lot easier for everyone if i would just fuck off and stop inconveniencing you.

"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

Can everybody please just step back from the keys for a moment and breathe?

AMG 2007 was barely a month ago. I understand the passionate feelings about all this. I do. As I said, I wasn't aware the restrictions were still in place when San Francisco was chosen. And funny thing...I asked about Alain when I got there, if he was coming. I had no idea about that either. I just think all the "damns" and "fuck offs" aren't doing anything but putting everybody on edge.

Seriously. I fell absolutely in love with the AMG barely more than a month ago. Best trip of my life, really. I hardly even want to think about going to it - anywhere - with all this tension and cursing.

Settle down, ya'll. We're still just in the preliminary suggestion stage. This thread hasn't even been allowed to simply run its course and get feedback. I have full faith that all of it- people's votes, peoples concerns - the whole kit and kaboodle would get presented and a reasonable decision would be arrived at. Instead, it's this giant THING where everything...even just simple suggestions and ideas...are expected to grind to halt. And that IS all this thread was originally intended to be...just initial suggestions.

im glad debra has managed to respond in this thread before i did. my response was no way near as polite.

i think i'll just leave it at that for the time being and hope that people understand how upsetting this is for me and for the others. at this point just want to give up entirely. im asking myself what is the point of me being a member of these forums when it would make it a damn lot easier for everyone if i would just fuck off and stop inconveniencing you.

Why would you want to give up at this point entirely when it looks to me like your points have actually come across loud and clear? Amsterdam seems to be the top choice in this thread at the moment, so I'm confused about the wanting to give up

The people in the US who would be unable to go are free to hold a mini-gathering, and the AMG + the next GC resources can be devoted to the main gathering in Amsterdam if that turns out to be the city that gets chosen.

I'm going to echo Tim's suggestion that everyone take some deep breaths before moving forward with this discussion -- it's teetering on becoming overheated and personal and I don't think anyone wants see this thread put on ice by a moderator.

It's obvious that people are coming at this from deep-seeded -- and highly variable -- personal idealogies and viewpoints. Personally, I totally support the International AIDS Society in its decision to hold the biennial International AIDS Conference in countries without HIV entry criteria, especially with the conference striving to bring so many community leaders from around the world -- many of whom are HIV-positive -- together. Until the United States overturns its archaic and discriminatory (HIV) immigration practices, we'll never see an IAC in this country.

Only you guys can determine, either by VOTING or CONSENSUS, as to whether this mandate should also apply to the AMG gathering. As has been said by others above, there are a number of issues at stake here -- the fact that most Forums members are U.S. citizens; the HIV entry ban that serves up both moral and practical challenges; the weakness of the U.S. dollar against, well, almost every other currency in the world; and, of course, the different expectations each member has for these gatherings.

No matter how this group decides to move forward, some members will find themselves unable to attend. But the fact of the matter is, there's really no "right" or "wrong" decision here. For example, some may feel that immigration restrictions trump economic concerns, whereas those who are operating on limited/fixed incomes may see that as the most important factor.

I suggest that the AMG organizers put this to a vote. This simply won't be decided by the person who is the angriest, most eloquent, or gets in the last word. Like I said, not everyone will be happy with the decision -- but at least there will be satisfaction, among AIDSmeds members of AMG hopefuls, that a decision was made democratically.

The AMG should be like the International AIDS Society in its decision to hold a biennial International AIDS Conference. We can dovetail on to the conference and have our meetings every 2 years in the same location as the IAS, only hold it on the weekend after the conference. That way we can meet people like Tim or Peter et al at our gathering and perhaps we can have a workshop or something with them.

That gives each of us 2 years to start saving money for our international gathering. Also we can start collecting donations over a longer period and maybe have more money for the grant committee. Of course there could be regional meetings in the off year for anyone who wished to get together.

Like I said earlier, when we met in Canada we had quite a few "locals" attending. I imagine it would be the same wherever we meet. If we meet in Europe, more Europeans from across the Continent would attend. If we should ever meet down under, then we would see a few more Aussies tossed into the bunch. It sounds like the only fair way to open the gatherings to all our members; give them the opportunity to be our hosts.

Every 2 years might seem like a long time between visits, but imagine the excitement that would build up as the gathering becomes to fruition.

Thanks, Robert. Reaffirms my belief that if everybody just chills and lets suggestions flow freely, all kinds of great ideas may come of this discussion. Some might eventually be tied directly to AMG, others may end up branching out into who knows what. That's why I so insistently think coolness needs to prevaill right now. Any suggestion should be tabled...from capri to cucamunga. (I just wanted an excuse to say cucamunga.) Then this becomes like true brainstorming - letting anything fly. Give things time to soak a bit.

And I also think all this excessive arguing is kind of doing a disservice (and kinda disrespectful) of folks on the committee. Like Dennis, primarily. I'm still in awe of the work that boy achieved for this last AMG. I mean WOW. So let's give these committee folks some credit and time to let them do what they do, and show a little faith here...in them and each other.

And someone balked at Texas and Tennessee in one of these threads. Ya know....there's really no need to go off and trash suggestions like that. (You're trashing the homes of some of our members when you do that, remember.) And personally, I know that Tennessee is gorgeous. And I'd love to see Texas. Who am I kidding? There ain't many places I wouldn't like to be able to see.

I almost certainly couldn't afford it, but I'd love a trip to Amsterdam. (Boy, the trouble I could get into there..)And there's about half a dozen hotties on here that I'd love to see all up close and personal in the London area. So, ya know...I'm all about the Union Jack.

Ozark Mountain country of northwest Arkansas (just not one of the 'dry' counties) … anyone?

OH, OK then

PS: Maybe I am the only one thinking this, but is it beyond the realms of possibility that arrangements for lifting of the ban will finally be announced on 1st December? The original commitment was timed to coincide with 1st December.

I'm going to request we get back on track here. Everyone has made some very fine points. However, in order for planning to go as smoothly as possible I need to request everyone stick to the topic of the thread and vote for 2 destinations. Any 2 and only 2 destinations.

Once I'm settled in California I will attempt to tally all votes and will pick the top 2 which can then be discussed. We will then vote amongst those two destinations.

im glad debra has managed to respond in this thread before i did. my response was no way near as polite.

So am I Niki..being rude and disrespectful would not have help move this thread forward.

I hope you have calmed down enough to read what the following posters had to say..Thunter, Tim, Robert and Gerry ..especially Gerry's post...thanks for your calming input guys, now can we get this back on track.

Thanks to the Coordinator, Thunter, Tim, Robert, Gerry and Dame Jan for attempting to get this thread back under control. Maybe Ric will settle down a bit. I can't promise anything, after all he is an old, crabby fart of German/Hungarian decent and is very bull headed.

1) Mexico City (I've been many times, but it's one of my favorite places, and I have friends there)2) Madrid (Spain or Portugal are about the only 2 places in Europe that I might be able to afford)

I just returned from a week in Rio de Janeiro on Wednesday. It's a beautiful place, and I had a wonderful time, but the travel was excruciating (26 hours there--Seattle->DC->Sao Paulo->Rio, and 24 hours home). I know I can't do something like that again--possibly ever. I have to hand it to those of you who travelled so far to get to the past few AMG's.

1. Mexico City is an exciting and cosmopolitan city, with lots to see and do. The city has a very good public transportation system. For many Americans, their only experience with Mexico is with border towns like Tijuana. Those border towns are not at all representative of the "real" Mexico.

2. Accommodations and food in Mexico City are generally less expensive than in Europe, Canada, or the U.S.

Sorry, I know this shouldn't be put in the voting thread...but just wanted to say that I could probably get cheaper direct flights to Mexico city from london....prices aren't set yet and hopefully they won't be increased due to the international AIDS conference but I can get tickets for £458 or $953.

Accommodation...none, bring yer own swagsBars...none, but you can bring your duty freeHIV restrictions..none, (that I know of)Attractions..from the top you can see miles of absolutely nothing..and you can yell at each other all you want because there will be no other buggers there to hear you.

2..STEWART ISLAND NEW ZEALAND

Accommodation..Tent city, I hear it's very picturesque when it's not underwater.Bars..One, the last I heard it was still open..but bring you duty free just in case.Attrations...gravel roads and bush, no transport as such but you can hire a little moped if you don't like walking.How to get here...Three choices..The Ferry but only when weather permits or if you don't mind chancing the 10 meter swells..apparently the ferry man will do anything for a good back hander.Plane..The plane will seat about 4/6 so a few runs will have to be organized..your luggage will have to go by Ferry, but only if you make it woth while for the ferry man.Chopper..Seats two, that includes the pilot..so even more runs will have to be organised..it's an old chopper but I have it on good authority that the pilot is well stocked up on duct tape.HIV restrictions..None

My final vote goes goes to:Amsterdam..For one reason, and one reason only, I would like to see Ann get the chance to attend an AMG..and because I like her.. .My only regret is I will not get to meet her.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go and see my surgeon to have the Alphabet and bits of black plastic that is imbebed on my forehead removed.

"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

The AMG should be like the International AIDS Society in its decision to hold a biennial International AIDS Conference. We can dovetail on to the conference and have our meetings every 2 years in the same location as the IAS, only hold it on the weekend after the conference. That way we can meet people like Tim or Peter et al at our gathering and perhaps we can have a workshop or something with them.

That gives each of us 2 years to start saving money for our international gathering. Also we can start collecting donations over a longer period and maybe have more money for the grant committee. Of course there could be regional meetings in the off year for anyone who wished to get together.

Like I said earlier, when we met in Canada we had quite a few "locals" attending. I imagine it would be the same wherever we meet. If we meet in Europe, more Europeans from across the Continent would attend. If we should ever meet down under, then we would see a few more Aussies tossed into the bunch. It sounds like the only fair way to open the gatherings to all our members; give them the opportunity to be our hosts.

Every 2 years might seem like a long time between visits, but imagine the excitement that would build up as the gathering becomes to fruition.

robert

Me likey this idea very muchas. So, although I stand by my original suggestion of "any place that does not have entry restrictions for HIV+ folk", I will narrow down my vote to:

1> INTERNATONAL: Amsterdam my favorite place in the world! no language issue. i havnt seen anyone mention that bitch called the euro though. god knowz what a barrel of oil is gonna cost in a year for an airplane ticket.

Dan J.

It's not the destination that is so important to me but the journey. I would like to change my choices to Anywhere. I will find a way to get there. Nothing is going to keep me away from AMG. It's what I look foreward to every year. The chance give hugs & kisses and look into the faces of the people that share their strength, hope & know what we have gone through with this damn virus.

This has been a difficult vote and a lot of members did vote for more than the requested 2 destinations. At this point I'm thinking of giving each destination mentioned a vote (just to make it easy on me). I think either way we count there are 1 or 2 destinations that clearly outnumber the others. Those 2 destinations can then be discussed further and voted upon to come to a conclusion. Those members who reposted a change to their vote will be taken into consideration and will not be counted twice.