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Friday, October 3, 2008

Want To Win Visitation, Demean Women: MRA's and Bullshit

A regular reader sent me a link toJugs for Justice. It is a site claiming to advocate for mens rights to joint parenting. As a mother, I am of course sympathetic to the cause of men wanting to be with their children. I feel that unless a parent is abusive a child gains from having both mother and father intimately involved in their lives. No child can ever be loved too much. There are of course some provisos to my support.

What I find disgusting about sites like this is the way that they have a tendency to dismiss why the current bias in the family court system exists to begin with. Lets not all have collective amnesia and ignore the fact that child rearing has historical been a responsibility abdicated by men. Despite the so called heroics of the men in question on sites like these, women continue to be the primary caregivers to children. SAHM's still out number SAHD's, and when both parents are working outside of the home, mothers routinely perform more domestic labour than fathers. That's right domestic labour because child rearing includes having a clean home, clean clothes and meals prepared. Remember the whole public/private sphere divide, it certainly wasn't women that created that.

Most lawyers and judges are men, so railing against women for sexism in the court system is fruitless. WE DO NOT CONTROL IT. Just look at the male to female ratio on the supreme court. I don't believe that anyone could call the judiciary an example of matriarchal tyranny.

The fathers rights movement could take a feminist approach to this issue but instead it insists on being combative towards women. A lot of these men who profess such undying love for their children have no problem demonizing their ex wives, who btw are the mothers of said children, and relying on misogyny to support their claims. They could rightfully claim that this is a perfect example of how sexism hurts men to but instead they dedicate themselves to spewing vitriol at all women because the imaginary vagina conspiracy is ruining them.

They further refuse to acknowledge the ways in which male bodies exist with privilege. How many men have you heard whining and complaining about having to pay child support? How many men have you heard questioning where the money they are paying is going? Hello, if the woman uses the money to pay the water bill or the electricity bill in a home that your child lives in, then the money is going to support your child, or do you think that child would be better off in a home without electricity and running water? On average it costs 125,000 to raise a child to age of 18 and that is not including University. Why should the woman have to shoulder that expense on 77 cents to every dollar a man makes when she clearly did not produce that child on her own?

When I see sites like Jugs for Justice, I do not feel compelled to offer any kind of sympathy. They are just another MRA group, intent on using sexism to assert a "right" that men continue to run screaming from. If you can stand clicking on the above link that I provided what you will find are pictures of breasts and stories about men that have been discriminated against. How does sexualizing the female body link to parenting? It seems to me that the only link would be that menz are upset that there is an area in which patriarchy has not yet seen fit to allow them to dominate. So why not just show a few tits, along the way slut shaming women because real mothers would be submissive and pure. Real mothers would subjugate their will to fathers. It doesn't matter if you no longer co-habitate with a man, if you share a genetic link with him through a child he should retain the right unto death to control your life. If that means he needs to slut shame you to get his way so be it.

Groups like this are divisive because they continue to use misogyny and irrationality to support their arguments. It does not support children to spew hatred at their mothers. Exactly what good is a father to a daughter if he continual spews hatred and bitterness towards women? Is he not teaching her that on some level that there is something despicable about her as well? Not a single one of these groups will make substantive gains until they can check the sexism that runs rampant in them. The hatred and naked anger are obvious to anyone with eyes to see it. If you truly love your child, you will not resort to misogyny to gain visitation.

133 comments:

Why should the woman have to shoulder that expense on 77 cents to every dollar a man makes when she clearly did not produce that child on her own?

While a baby is not conceived by the woman alone, the decision to carry it to term is a decision which is, ideally, solely the purview of the mother. It is the most basic sort of morality that anyone with the power to make a unilateral decision should unilaterally bear the consequences, so the extent to which child support is justified is limited to those cases in which the woman cannot make that decision without undue obstacles, or in which the decision was made on the understanding that support would be subsequently rendered.

At present, this is actually most of the time, so child support is justified now, but in general, I don't think that the providing of semen alone is sufficient reason to impose payments. It is also not a necessary condition, as promises to provide support do not have to come from the biological father. If, for instance, a pregnant woman gave birth after being assured of support from her parents, which they renegaded on, it would be them who should pay child support.

One of the things that appalls me is the fact that the site, Jugs for Justice, and several other "Father's Rights" sites have been started by a woman! While on the premise of gaining parental rights, most of the men who leave comments or entries are simply whining about the mean old ex-wife and the fact that they are ordered to support their children! Duh.

While I commend the single fathers who are doing a great job of raising their children,and also the one's who take on their responsiblities, there are so many who would love to just walk away from the burden. I know because I was married to one who never paid a red cent and was happy to "move on" with his life and impregnate 3 other women who bore his daughters.

To the comment above by AR all I can say is Holy Shit, man, where are you coming from! If indeed you are a "father" to children you must be classified in the growing number of "sperm donor" dads. I am truly speechless.

Most lawyers and judges are men, so railing against women for sexism in the court system is fruitless. WE DO NOT CONTROL IT. Just look at the male to female ratio on the supreme court. I don't believe that anyone could call the judiciary an example of matriarchal tyranny. The upper levels of the judicial system are mainly made of men indeed. However the reason MRAs also talk about feminists and other women's groups is because when they bring up men's rights and father's rights issues most of the time feminsits and women's groups are the first ones to oppose the efforts.

How many men have you heard whining and complaining about having to pay child support?I'm not sure on the number but a lot of them are "whining" because the court awarded them custody along with that CS support payment but for some reason they end get chased to the end of the earth for the support but no one will help them when those vindictive mothers deny them visitation.

How many men have you heard questioning where the money they are paying is going?Quite a few actually. The complaint isn't that the mom is using the money on utilities but the fact that CS payements are calculated unfairly. I recall a story once in which a man was ordered to pay 125% of hi monthly salary in support. And not only that there are MRAs out there that are up in arms at the court system over how the money is distributed. The lion's share of the money they pay gets kept by the court and father's don't like that. What puzzles me is that instead of questioning the courts over this the mom's just ask for the CS payment to be raised.

And frankly there would be more money to go into CS if those fathers weren't draining their fortunes on trying to get a crumb of visitation just to have it swept away by a mom that suddenly wants to move to an unknown location for the sole purpose to ruining the father-child bond.

@DannyThe upper levels of the judicial system are mainly made of men indeed. However the reason MRAs also talk about feminists and other women's groups is because when they bring up men's rights and father's rights issues most of the time feminsits and women's groups are the first ones to oppose the efforts.

Yeah the reason you are getting resistance is because the MRA movement is based in misogyny. just look at the site I linked to. Please explain to me how displaying womens breasts in relation to child custody is anything but misogynistic? This is the kind of shit they resort to all of the time. If they want the support of women they need to stop attacking women.

because the court awarded them custody along with that CS support payment but for some reason they end get chased to the end of the earth for the support

Yes because when they don't pay their support society is forced to pick up the slack. I say again men control the system and it is their fellow men they need to be lobbying.

by a mom that suddenly wants to move to an unknown location for the sole purpose to ruining the father-child bond.

Yeah because women don't want to move to maybe advance their careers an option that men have always had and assumed that the family should just follow them right? Yeah I know double standard.

Yeah the reason you are getting resistance is because the MRA movement is based in misogyny.That particulary site probably is (you say there are pics of breats so that makes it Not Safe For Work for me, I'll check it when I get home). And you're right the misogyny is a detrement to the cause.

I say again men control the system and it is their fellow men they need to be lobbying.Correct. And when they do those women's interests groups and organizations are right there to defend those judges.

Yeah because women don't want to move to maybe advance their careers an option that men have always had and assumed that the family should just follow them right? Yeah I know double standard.I didn't realize that part of advancing a career was intentionally trying severe the father-child bond. Yes circumstances happen in which the mother may have to move for the sake of survivial. Does that make it okay to do so with the fullest intent of making sure the father cannot remain in contatct with the children? You can't move to the other side of the country, break the bond, and then get mad that he's no longer in the child's life. Can't have it both ways.

@DannyCorrect. And when they do those women's interests groups and organizations are right there to defend those judges.

Again, the final say is in the hands of the male. They can at any time refuse to accept a petition on behalf on a womans organization.

I didn't realize that part of advancing a career was intentionally trying severe the father-child bond. Yes circumstances happen in which the mother may have to move for the sake of survivial. Does that make it okay to do so with the fullest intent of making sure the father cannot remain in contact with the children?

If you can acknowledge that she is moving to advance her career, the idea that the intent is purposeful separation is at odds.

You can't move to the other side of the country, break the bond, and then get mad that he's no longer in the child's life. Can't have it both ways.

The option always exists for the father to move to the new location. We both can acknowledge that historically when a family picked up stakes to move it was to advance the fathers career and not the mothers. Men don't feel like they need to make concessions in this part of the problem. If he wants to be in childs life and respects the mothers right to pursue her career he should be willing to make sacrifices as well.

While a baby is not conceived by the woman alone, the decision to carry it to term is a decision which is, ideally, solely the purview of the mother.

Umm . . . what about cases when the child is planned. In that case, I'd say that BOTH members of the couple agreed together to carry the child to term. Yeah, *technically* it was the mother's choice to keep it, but when a child is planned and wanted by BOTH members of the couple, it's really, really hard to claim that the man did not have a choice.

So what happens when a couple wants two children, agrees TOGETHER to have two children, and then has those two children? And then a few years down the line, the man decides he'd rather not be involved, even though he AGREED to those children in the first place, before they were even conceived? Does that absolve him of responsibility? Because guess what? Some men, after being involved in a two-person agreement to have kids, leave, and don't pay child support. But if they agreed to start having kids, if they agreed on the number of kids before those kids existed, how can you claim that his female partner made the decision unilaterally?

And don't claim that doesn't happen, because it happened to my family. My father decided that he didn't want to be involved in our lives anymore. My father left and skipped out on child support and was never persecuted and forced to uphold his legal responsibilities to help support the two children HE AGREED TO before my mother was even pregnant. My parents actually struggled with infertility for almost a decade before I came along. So don't tell me that my father was not involved in the decision to have kids, to go through infertility treatments, etc. I think my mother was entitled to support, and I've always hated the courts for not helping her get what she deserved. You don't bring children into this world and then decide to ditch on your parental responsibilities.

Again, the final say is in the hands of the male. They can at any time refuse to accept a petition on behalf on a womans organization.And when they do they get booted off the bench for their efforts. I remember a certain Judge James Shull who was booted off the bench for trying to split holiday custody of a child. After he was booted the mom (who had some mental issues) got custody and preceeded to kidnap the child.

If you can acknowledge that she is moving to advance her career, the idea that the intent is purposeful separation is at odds.Its not when the mom makes NO effort to give the child means to contact their father so that he can at least know the child is alive and well taken care of. I'm not saying the mom will abuse the child behind his back but any parent that is separated from their child would go nuts if couldn't even find out if they were okay or not.

The option always exists for the father to move to the new location. Not when the new location is not disclosed to him.

If he wants to be in childs life and respects the mothers right to pursue her career he should be willing to make sacrifices as well. A man that drains his fortune and that of his parents (and other family) just to make sure the child is okay is making sacrifices. A man that loses his job because of an ex-wife's false abuse accusations (to gain leverage in court) is making sacrifices. A man that ends up living on a friends couch to make unrealistic CS payments is making sacrifices. And any of those three men (and any others) that make those sacrifices all the while the mother refuses to disclose her location are making a sacrifice.

I fully acknowledge the sacrifices mothers make but for some reason people like to think those sacrifices render a father's sacrfices invalid.

This post is ending up the way all MRA posts go. You can almost see the quivering bottom lips of the "but what about the menzzzzzzzzzzz" crowd. Puh-lease.

Truth is, 70% of child support cases are in arrears. That means that 70% of non-custodial parents (who are overwhelmingly fathers) don't give a rats ass enough to make sure their kids are fed and housed and clothed on a monthly basis. Now when you can come up with the same kind of overwhelming number for moms who disappear with the kids or who get pregnant "accidentally on purpose" to trap a man into child support, I may feel some empathy for all the MRA whining.

Until then, pay up or shut up. If women abandoned their kids in the same numbers that men do, the foster care system would explode.

If I was a single Dad and truly serious about Father's Rights, I would be beyond outraged by such a site as Jugs for Justice...to have my authentic desire for a close relationship with my child portrayed by some in such a horrific and negative light...

Which is why...it's so depressing to see the "Father's Rights" comments here never even GET that point!

This post is ending up the way all MRA posts go. You can almost see the quivering bottom lips of the "but what about the menzzzzzzzzzzz" crowd. Puh-lease.That usually happens because people decide to define what MRAs are about without acutally talking to them or by only going by the most extreme examples or worse just asking a feminist about MRAs.Truth is, 70% of child support cases are in arrears. That means that 70% of non-custodial parents (who are overwhelmingly fathers) don't give a rats ass enough to make sure their kids are fed and housed and clothed on a monthly basis.How nice of you to assume that all of that 70% if of people who don't care. You probably think that they are all corporate big suit types that rake in 6 figures and laughs about the ex-wife and kids he left behind while he sips Mojitos on a beach.

Now that I've had the chance to look at the site I'm mixed. The Issues section talks about the unfairness that moms, dads, and children face in family court. But at the same time the pics are not doing them any good and in fact works against them. They seem to me to be complaining about how the court treats everyone, not just dads. Get rid of those random pics and vid and that belly dancer and think the site would be more presentable and appealing.

The thing with just about any rights movement is that there are usually people who take extreme measures like that site. They probably think those pics are "edgy" and meant to draw attention.

So I wonder. If MRAs are supposed to police their ranks does this mean that feminists, anti-racists, GLBT, and all the other activists need to police their ranks? If that is the case the MRAs aren't the only ones that need to take an inner look...

So I wonder. If MRAs are supposed to police their ranks does this mean that feminists, anti-racists, GLBT, and all the other activists need to police their ranks? If that is the case the MRAs aren't the only ones that need to take an inner look...

Yeah and feminism is policed. For every single feminist theory theory there are a list of organizing principles, out comes and critiques. I am the first one to say that feminism is not perfect but at least we talk to each other and attempt to work out difference and admit that no matter what feminist theory we use each will fall short in some way because there is no monolithic woman. Let me tell you what MRA's come together on MISOGYNY. Period. There is nothing legitimate about them. They are no different than the skin heads..a plague upon society with no other goal other than maintaining male hegemony...

Do you see them out there fighting to stop domestic violence, of course not because that is a womans issue. They only care about warping the statistics to make it look like the fucking mehnzs are equal victims.

Do you see them doing anti-poverty work, of course fucking not...the mehnz own the majority of the worlds wealth and they know that too.

For people so concerned about children you would think something like socialized daycare would be on their list...but fuck no cause the mehnz know that women will be there to fall back on.

Some of these men are fathers to little girls. You would think that rape would be a priority, because what father wants his daughter to have to survive a rape? 1 in 4 women are violated before the age of 18 And do these fuckers care NO. They warp the rape stas and talk about the mehnz...but we are supposed to believe that they care about their girls. You wanna buy some swampland in Florida to?

How about equal pay, cause you know what daddys little girl is gonna grow up one day and desire to live on something a little healthier than kraft fucking dinner, but you know what the MRA's do??? Can you guess. They deny the 77 cents per every dollar that women make. They whine that men are being disadvantaged economically. Yeah they get to live high on the hog. When their daughters grow up, they live a life wondering how the fuck they are going to pay rent, but they care about their children.

FUCK THE MRA's...fuck I'm pissed. Fuck em all and I don't give a shit who this pisses off either. The only thing the MRA's care about is making sure that there is one cock in every household to fuck all the chicks over. Fuck em all.

Yeah and feminism is policed. For every single feminist theory theory there are a list of organizing principles, out comes and critiques. I am the first one to say that feminism is not perfect but at least we talk to each other and attempt to work out difference and admit that no matter what feminist theory we use each will fall short in some way because there is no monolithic woman.But for some reason when it comes to interacting with non feminists some of them take on an attitude of, "I have already decided this is right and no one can debate it.". I don't expect feminists to be monolithic but I also wouldn't think they would think they views are beyond reproach...

Let me tell you what MRA's come together on MISOGYNY. Period. There is nothing legitimate about them. They are no different than the skin heads..a plague upon society with no other goal other than maintaining male hegemony...You don't have to bother telling me because I took the time to find out but apparently you didn't if you think all MRAs are only about misogyny.

Do you see them out there fighting to stop domestic violence, of course not because that is a womans issue. They only care about warping the statistics to make it look like the fucking mehnzs are equal victims.No but I don't see feminists helping dads with family court issues and sentencing disparities but that doesn't mean they aren't issues.

For people so concerned about children you would think something like socialized daycare would be on their list...but fuck no cause the mehnz know that women will be there to fall back on.Actually they are concerned about children and that is why they are trying to deal with the unfair way the family courts treat them. They aren't doing it for victim hood status they are doing it so they can be in their children's lives. First people are telling them to be responsible fathers and when they try to be in the child's life they get told they are only doing to hurt the mother and exert patriarchal control over the family. Nice...

For all the "what about the menz" talk you go on about you then turn around and wonder why MRAs aren't addressing the same issues as the feminists are. Fact is all you're doing is chanting "what about the women".

1 in 4 women are violated before the age of 18You wanna talk warped stats? I'm glad you brought up this number. I've seen this listed as 1 in 4 women are violate/raped:During their first year of college.During their college career.Before 21.In their lifetime.And this is the first time I've seen as "...before 18". You're right rape is a serious issue. So serious in fact that I really don't see a reason to exaggerate the stats.

FUCK THE MRA's...fuck I'm pissed. Fuck em all and I don't give a shit who this pisses off either. The only thing the MRA's care about is making sure that there is one cock in every household to fuck all the chicks over. Fuck em all.I'm really sorry you feel that way but all I can say is that if you think that is all MRAs are about then you are totally wrong. Odd thing is I used to think that all feminists were just a bunch of angry man-haters that wanted revenge for the sufferings their foremothers bore. And rest assured are definitely some of those out there but in the last year or so I have learned that they are not all like that.

They're right about the fact that society in general views a "successful father" as a guy who brings home the bacon, not a guy who cares for his kids. Of course, for most MRA's, that's just a way of complaining about child support, but they're right that the law struggles to balance the interests of both parents in child custody cases. (Of course, as Liss reminded me, while women are usually given physical custody, in contested cases men have a better-than-even chance of getting some form of custody. And while joint physical custody is rare, joint legal custody is the norm in all but a few cases, contested or no.)

Of course, if fathers are undervalued as caregivers, it's for the same reason that women are undervalued as employees -- because neither fits the model of what men and women are "supposed to do."

How do you solve that?

With the novel idea that men and women should be able to map out their own destinies, free from being directed on what they're "supposed to do." It's a political ideology called "feminism." The MRAs with legitimate gripes would be well-served to embrace feminism. But given the overall hatred of women woven into the fabric of the movement, I won't hold my breath.http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html?disqus_reply=2868459#comment-2868459

"Now that I've had the chance to look at the site I'm mixed. The Issues section talks about the unfairness that moms, dads, and children face in family court. But at the same time the pics are not doing them any good and in fact works against them. They seem to me to be complaining about how the court treats everyone, not just dads. Get rid of those random pics and vid and that belly dancer and think the site would be more presentable and appealing."

Honest to goodness, Danny...thank you for this comment as well as for taking the time to look at the Jugs site and recognize the issue originally at hand.

You do seem as if your heart is in the right place, which is why, to be completely truthful, I think you'd do best to become involved with a Legitimate for the Children's Best Interest Father's Right Group, because I do think that there is a definite need for that.

If you are interested and would like some help with it, please do not hesitate to let me know.

Do you feel like you put one over on me Terri? Well nothing in this post or my responses in this thread is in support if your organization. To me women like you are nothing more than disgusting colluders. So yes you managed to get a free link on a feminist blog, however it does not support your little cause, nor will it ever. Your group and groups of your ilk are staunchly anti woman and use children as a tool to push as misogynistic, patriarchal message. Also please remember that just as this post went up it can come down...Enjoy your shit eating grin.

Fathers'/Men's Rights activism is problematic because the analysis is typically shallow and skewed toward blaming women and playing the victim. As Renee points out above, women receive custody most often because of sexist assumptions in society about how men are the breadwinners and women are supposed to handle the domestic affairs, but MRAs make it instead about how they're denied access to their children.

My first encounter with MRAs involved so much denial against the idea of sexism existing, or acting as if the idea of one man experiencing sexism was the same as all women experiencing misogyny. Arguments that since women live longer, they still make more money than men - or even that women living longer is itself a form of oppression.

Mostly, it seems to me that MRAs are focused on identifying where women seem to have things better than men (at least to superficial analysis) and then demanding that this stop. I'm not impressed.

Mostly, it seems to me that FRAs are more about winning custody cases and not so much about what's best for their children. I read stories about psychiatrists who encourage the courts to threaten mothers with jail time if their children don't visit their fathers even if the fathers themselves are abusive and I'm not seeing a movement that's out for equality, but a movement that's trying to score points against women.

Oh, and I'll dig up a link for that example about mothers going to jail. The case that I read actually featured a teenaged boy who committed suicide so he a) didn't have to see his father and b) wouldn't send his mother to jail for refusing to go.

Renee, I'm not enjoying any of the conflict. I'd prefer a positive exchange. This subject already breaks my heart.

The fathers/mothers/equal parental/family rights movement is not shallow at all. Far from it. The only thing shallow I see is the description I'm reading here.

Yes, we care deeply about domestic violence. There are several organizations specializing in this. http://www.nfvlrc.org/ You see, someone has to lobby for and provide services for men and boys over 12. http://www.mediaradar.org/ Someone has to tell their stories. http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/2007/09/27/the-face-of-men-abused-by-women/

Yes, we care deeply about child care. Parents should automatically have the right of first refusal when the children would normally be in day care.

I used to call myself a feminist. I was the Feminist4Fathers. Then I watched them lie under oath to my legislators. http://mensnewsdaily.com/blog/2005/06/its-not-your-mothers-fathers-movement.htm Feminism to longer stands for equality.

When you read about child support in the movement, it's usually people quoting studies done for the government. In case you haven't heard, it's all about profit for the state. We have insiders exposing the corruption. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M7cEi61W24http://www.amazon.com/Friend-court-enemy-family-Surviving/dp/0966816102

The people who say they know, simply don't. They've probably had a few exchanges with grumpy readers of blogs or bitter visitors to forums. Those people are not leaders of this incredible multi-generational, multi-racial, gender-neutral family rights movement.

Teri Stoddard has had 4 children with 4 different fathers. No fit mother would go through relationships like tissues and drag innocent children along for the ride. She has no business telling others whats best for their children.

The father's rights movement do not support violence against women. IN fact they are harming mothers and children by claiming mothers claim false abuse to keep the father away from the children. They promote the use of PAS (parental alienation syndrome)as a means to rip children away from a mother that is trying to protect the children from abusive ex husbands. PAS was created by a quack called Richard Gardner who also claims that early sexualization of children (pedophilia) is beneficial for them! This sicko committed suicide in 2003.

Teri Stoddard created this website, Jugs4Justice. She has 4 children by 4 different men, but it doesn't sound like she had to fight any of them for custody. She does, however, seem to be biased since she is a grandmother and her son has been fighting for custody. Figures that she is a hypocrite and fights for her "momma's boy" while thumbing her nose at other women. It also seems she is whoring herself with the fathers' rights people. Some of them don't care for her, though, and it is fun to see them bicker! She sold herself out to them and they still don't respect her because she is a woman, and she's too dense to even see that. This woman should not be published anywhere as she has no credentials and no qualifications.

The MRAs with legitimate gripes would be well-served to embrace feminism. But given the overall hatred of women woven into the fabric of the movement, I won't hold my breath.http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.htThat is the exact kind of thing MRAs are talking about. That comment is no different than telling different sections of feminists (such as women of color) that their concerns would be best addressed if they would just fall in line with the mainstream. But for some reason one is minimizing and other is insightful commentary. Truth be told MRAs and feminists both have legitimate gripes but to just tell one side they should fall in line with the other is unfair and it just drives the wedge farther between them.

And that link to that garbage Jeff Fecke tried to pass off as "an explainer" is nothing but angry feminist propaganda meant to poison people against MRAs.

I think you'd do best to become involved with a Legitimate for the Children's Best Interest Father's Right Group, because I do think that there is a definite need for that.While I have will not commit to either side of this feminsit/MRA conflict I would any information from either side is useful.

I got YOU to look at the site, and to write about it, didn't I?Thats true Teri and while it is sad that you had to resort to that all it does is feed the illegitimate anger feminists hold against MRAs. I'll anything that there are feminists that literally saw nothing more than the pic of the belly dancer, left the page, and then proceeded to trash it without even looking at the legitimate stuff thats on it (while claiming they "read over it"). Attempts at disguising anger and hatred as "edgy" doesn't look any better on an MRA site than a feminist site.

...women receive custody most often because of sexist assumptions in society about how men are the breadwinners and women are supposed to handle the domestic affairs, but MRAs make it instead about how they're denied access to their children.They are denied access because of both sets of sexist assumptions. Feminists are dealing with the sexist assumption that only women can be caregivers to children while MRAs are dealing with the sexist assumption that men CANNOT be caregivers to children. Same battle from two different angles.

Mostly, it seems to me that MRAs are focused on identifying where women seem to have things better than men (at least to superficial analysis) and then demanding that this stop. I'm not impressed.At least you do admit the analysis is superficial. There are a lot of feminists out there that interact with one MRA site and then assume that all MRAs act that way. But in the next breath will go on about how feminists cannot be monolithed together. But to each their own.

MRAs just want to give their children a fair chance at having their fathers in their lives. But for some reason people like telling fathers "they need to step to the plate and take responsibility" and when they do they get told "they're only trying to take the children away from their moms". If the father is fit then what good reason is there to keep him away from his children?

In case you haven't heard, it's all about profit for the state. Good point Teri but for some unknown reason when moms aren't getting the support they need feminists don't go after the state that is shortchanging them. No they blame it on the "deadbeat" fathers because if a good portion of them run out on their responsibilities (and they do) then that must mean that all noncustodial fathers are deadbeats. If feminists want to give pointers to MRAs then they can stand to take a few notes of their own.

She does, however, seem to be biased since she is a grandmother and her son has been fighting for custody.If bias invalidates people's efforts then every feminist that was once abused and then advocates for other abused people is invalid. If bias invalidates people's efforts then every MRA that had their children taken from them and advocates for other people in that position is invalid. Yeah right.

And while people are critiquing movements I've got an observation. Why is it that some feminists and women's right advocates are trying to genderize things like greed, corruption, abuse (of people and power), and evil. When a man does something wrong "it's proof that all men are out to get all women" but when a woman does something wrong "it must be because some man somewhere made her do it. this is just an isolated incident."

actually, no, there are NOT a lot of men who run out on their children's child support. that's a feminist myth.

most fathers pay every dime, every month. the next size group are parents going through a rough time. they pay some of the order and/or some of the time. the smallest group is parents who are chronic non-payers. they make up less than 15%.

mothers pay less of their court ordered child support than fathers, and less often.

80% of parents in arrears make less than $15k a year. 70% make less than $10k. many are disabled, ill, in jail or unemployed.

adjustments to lower child support orders are available. they are not advertised and rarely approved by judges. imputing income is unconstitutional.

There will be no further commentary allowed in this thread. This post was initiated under dishonest pretense, and the conversation that is occurring is not productive. I will leave all of the commentary up but I will not allow terisdodard to use my blog any further to promote her agenda. Fly back to you own space and never darken womanist musings again. You are deceitful and a colluder. I will not have you corrupting my space any longer.

My cousin was one of these men who lost his son to a crazy, manipulative ex-wife. She would scream he was kidnapping the baby during his visitation, that he was abusive, that he didn't pay child support on time (even when he did).

After a while, he just gave up.

A part of me has always wished that there was a resource for non-custodial parents. And a part of me had never been more disgusted with a human being. That's your CHILD. Walk through fire. Starve. Get millions of dollars into debt and go to court over and over.

Oh, wait! Raising a child should be EASY. A man should never run into a single hard spot when it comes to having children!

As a woman, I was raised to never give up on my kids, to fight to death, to do whatever it takes to make sure my child was happy and healthy. I guess these men were never taught about working hard and keeping quiet. I guess only women should do that.

Anonymous I'll bet the reason he gave up was because of the fact that the child was being put through so much hell. Chances are he didn't give up the fight because HE didn't want to put up with it anymore but because he didn't want that child's early years to be filled with memories of conflict.

The one thing that most parents have in common is that they try their hardest to make sure their child is never hurt.

Unless it is true that ALL men that aren't in their children's lives ran out on them right?

@Danny,In a word bullshit. They would have to pry my child out of cold dead hands before I would give either one of them up. When I gave birth to them I made them a promise that I would be there for them and do everything I could by them. A parent that loves a child does not give up ever

Fortunately the unhusband and I are very happily unmarried; however should the worst ever occur one day, you can be sure I would haunt him to my last breathe for my children. There is no one more important to me on the planet than my two little boys. There is nothing that I would not sacrifice for them.

In a word bullshit. They would have to pry my child out of cold dead hands before I would give either one of them up.

Say what you want but as a mother why would you fight for your children so vigorously? Because they mean the world to you right? Then why is it that when men do it its "because they only want to do it to harm the child's mother"? Because you want them to have the best life possible and you believe that would be with you right? They why is it that when men do it its "because they want to maintain patriarchal control over them"?

Call it bullshit til you're blue in the face but when it comes to what happens when father's lose the custody its not automatically becuase they want nothing to do with the child. Unless perhaps the caring mothers that lose custody to abusive and controlling fathers also "gave up"?

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I am the mother of two darling little boys that fill my life with hope. They have inspired me to help raise awareness of the issues that plague this little blue planet.
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