Author
Topic: why [#2673] (Read 4130 times)

Good question, but why would God heal them? I am a military man and have friends who are amputees; and the last person they blame is God. Further, they don't expect him to heal them either; they do pray though. Their prayer gives them hope and I have seen success from it. Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer. You wish to take this away? God doesn't make war, we do. There is good and evil and for any person that has been around and seen the world knows this. We are left to our own here on our small planet. God doesn't interfere with that nor should he. God is built into us and you think you take this away like it was a habit of sorts, like smoking. I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you. You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because I considered myself a nonbeliever, but your site may have converted be to a believer. Thanks.....

Logged

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Good question, but why would God heal them? I am a military man and have friends who are amputees; and the last person they blame is God. Further, they don't expect him to heal them either; they do pray though.

It sounds like your amputee friends have already realized that the god they believe in does not perform unambiguous healing "miracles"; I'm sure they have rationalizations why that contradicts how prayer is described in Biblical scripture. That many believers find comfort in prayer nontheless is undeniable.

Quote

Their prayer gives them hope and I have seen success from it. Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer. You wish to take this away?

Your post is rife with contradictions. For one, if god (I assume you're talking about the Abrahamic variety) really exists, then he isn't very powerful if just disbelief can remove the positive results of prayer. That sounds to me like whoever is praying is already aware of its inefficacy, but can't quite let go of their security blanket.

Quote

God doesn't make war, we do. There is good and evil and for any person that has been around and seen the world knows this. We are left to our own here on our small planet. God doesn't interfere with that nor should he.

But if the god you're talking about is responsible for creating the entire universe, then he absolutely is responsible for making war, disease, parasites that infest children's eyes, and my cat's mange. The originator of freaking everything does not get to pass the buck.

If he's answering your friends' prayers, then he hasn't left us to our own. Which is it?

And the Christian god at least has absolutely no problem interfering in war, if the Bible is to be believed: he drowns Pharoh's army in the Exodus and goes on to give the Israelites victory over their enemies in Canaan.

Quote

God is built into us and you think you take this away like it was a habit of sorts, like smoking.

Not a bad comparison. It can be an addictive and unhealthy behavior for some.

Quote

I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you. You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale.

Your apology is insincere, as you immediately judge the atheists on this forum after the comma. You most likely don't know us and have no idea of what contributed to our atheism. You're welcome to stick around, engage with us and find out, however. Though it would be nice if you apologized for assuming you can read our minds.

Quote

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because I considered myself a nonbeliever, but your site may have converted be to a believer. Thanks.....

Since you presumed to read our minds, I'll do the same: it sounds more like you're a believer who just hadn't examined their faith in any great detail. The questions this site asks make you doubt that faith and it's easier to criticize the former than the latter.

Seriously, join the forum and engage with us. Whether you question your faith or not, you're likely to learn something. I'm an atheist and I learn useful things from the believers as well as the other nonbelievers here.

Their prayer gives them hope and I have seen success from it. Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer.

Yes, it's a brilliant thing called the Placebo effect. If you believe you will get better you will get better.

Quote

God doesn't interfere with that nor should he.

A non-existent god and a god that does nothing appear the exact same.

Quote

I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you. You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale.

I disagree. My nephew is 10 months old. Though he can't communicate I believe I'm accurate in saying he has no sense of God, gods, or religion. These things are instilled in us and picked up from the world through family, friends, books, television, magazines, movies, and general culture. We learn God and religion. We can also learn from public and private/self education that gods do not exist. Just as I learned through my own private education (thinking about the world) that Santa Claus does not exist.

...because he said he would. And we are meant to believe he apparently heals all sorts of internal ambiguous illnesses, so, why not amputees?

Quote

I am a military man and have friends who are amputees; and the last person they blame is God.

...didn't you read the site? Who says any amputee blames god? This is a strawman argument.

Quote

Further, they don't expect him to heal them either;

Shows quite a lack of faith don't you think?

Quote

they do pray though.

So are you claiming that no amputee has ever prayed to god for god's divine intervention and miracle cure?

Quote

Their prayer gives them hope and I have seen success from it.

So suddenly the downgrade. Prayer doesn't get answered with gods miraculous intervention, the best we can actually expect is the feeling of hope it gives us.Does this mean all the claimed miracles that prayer has supposedly wrung from god in the past are fraudulent?

Quote

Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer.

I guess that pretty much means that all the productive amputees that exist elsewhere as non-believers of your particular version of god, are just freaks.Or does it mean that christians are particularly cursed, weak, made unproductive by their amputeeism? Fortunately their god gives them extra strength to be productive.

Quote

You wish to take this away?

Well if every amputee that doesn't believe in christ, (and therefore didn't pray) was seen to be a slumping blanchmange unproductive, then I'd have to answer no. But as amputees of all faiths as well as amputees of no faith whatsoever, lead productive lives without praying to your god, then I'd have to say the act of prayer seems nothing more than a ritualistic servicing of a shared delusion that psychosomatically makes some feel better.So what would I be taking away? The crutch of an illusion.

Quote

God doesn't make war, we do.

Come on, haven't you read your bible?Even your own apologists will correct you on that one.

Quote from: http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html

God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war. In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist.

But what really interests me is how and why you've completely focussed this on war veteran amputees. Why only them? Do you just not recognise that amputees are in all walks(sic) of life, and many are born that way, requiring no violence of any sort to have to live life as amputees. (Well of course if one believes in your god I guess they require the violent mental adjustment of finding a way of accepting it is their god's choice to create them to live life as amputees, and surely he's got a mysterious plan ....right?)

Quote

There is good and evil and for any person that has been around and seen the world knows this.

Don't get me started on the hilarious paradox of a perfect, all powerful, all good, and all loving god creating evil.

Quote

We are left to our own here on our small planet.

Now you've got it. Only we weren't left here (that implies someone left us) we are just here, alone on our small planet, which goes a long way to explaining why god doesn't heal amputees (as there is no god).

Quote

God doesn't interfere with that nor should he.

So you've obviously built this god (your version) however you damn-well felt like, without reading the manufacturers directions. Doesn't that void your warranty?

Quote

God is built into us and you think you take this away like it was a habit of sorts, like smoking.

Does that mean amputees have less god in them? I mean there's obviously less of them for god to be built into. No wonder their lesser prayers for a healing don't work so well then.

Quote

I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you.

And everything was sadly quite limited but acceptable up until this. Oh! the presumption. Are you dictating the world now? Are you really arbitrarily claiming that "a sense of God is in all of us. ......even me!"

Well praise the omnibutt lord

Evidence please. That's right you fucking know it all, where is your evidence to prove your self proclaimed omniscience?

Quote

You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale.

And now you are a mind reader as well.You stupid braggart christians betray yourself at every turn. Claiming telepathy will win you no friends here you idiot.

Where in my statement "I have no belief there is a god" is there room for your self-aggrandising presumptuous and arrogant demand that "I know" there is a fucking god.

What I do know, oh braggart, is that your god is best defined by "absence and ambiguity", and your implied internal knowledge of it (your god) is just your emotional dependence on a feeling to give your life meaning or purpose (your words not mine).

What a shame you are not smart enough, or honest enough, or brave enough to live without this crutch.

I guess god didn't answer your prayers either.

Quote

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because I considered myself a nonbeliever, but your site may have converted be to a believer. Thanks.....

What is it with you fuckwits? You have no idea how many times christians have come here claiming to be atheists or nonbelievers who've changed their minds.

Is this supposed to be a winning play or something?

Sad really, ......... laughable, but sad.

Logged

"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

Because it says in the Bible, if you pray for it, Biblegod will heal you...does it not?

Quote

I am a military man and have friends who are amputees; and the last person they blame is God.

Blame? Why blame their god and then ask to be healed. Doesn'tmake sense.

Quote

Further, they don't expect him to heal them either; they do pray though.

Not to heal them? I find that hard to believe. But that's me.

Quote

Their prayer gives them hope and I have seen success from it. Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer.

What you have seen matters not. Actual evidence, that matters.

Quote

You wish to take this away?

Take what away?

Quote

God doesn't make war, we do.

According to the OT, Biblegod started many wars, and helped one side over the other.

Quote

There is good and evil and for any person that has been around and seen the world knows this.

From whose perspective? What is considered to be "good", and considered to be "evil".

Quote

We are left to our own here on our small planet. God doesn't interfere with that nor should he.

According to the Bible, that's all it ever did. Are you not a Christian? You'd know this to be true.

Quote

God is built into us and you think you take this away like it was a habit of sorts, like smoking. I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you.

Evidence?

Quote

You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because I considered myself a nonbeliever, but your site may have converted be to a believer. Thanks.....

1) Loads of Christians claims he interferes. Are you calling them a liar? How do you know yours is right and theirs is wrong?2) In the bible says that God intervenes and demands war.3) People make war over what their religious texts tell them.4) As for healing the amputees, some christians proclaimed that their God healed their cancer or tumor or something. So why that when he could heal amputees?5) you only believe in the god you were raised to believe in, hench it's why you think he's "in us all." Which thousands of gods are we talking here? If you were raised to believe in Hindu gods, you would think that the Hindu gods are within us all.

Logged

Me:What are you looking at Eminem?Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Good question, but why would God heal them? I am a military man and have friends who are amputees; and the last person they blame is God. Further, they don't expect him to heal them either; they do pray though. Their prayer gives them hope and I have seen success from it. Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer. You wish to take this away? God doesn't make war, we do. There is good and evil and for any person that has been around and seen the world knows this. We are left to our own here on our small planet. God doesn't interfere with that nor should he. God is built into us and you think you take this away like it was a habit of sorts, like smoking. I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you. You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because I considered myself a nonbeliever, but your site may have converted be to a believer. Thanks.....

I site that logically disassembles the reasoning for the Islamic/Judeo-Christian God converted you into a believer?????????????

Part of the recurring themes in the Bible is healing, it is one of the more common miracles. People call for healing as part of their "proof" of the power of God fairly regularly in modern life. Spontaneous and miraculous healing would be strong evidence of a supernatural force, and if the occurrence of spontaneous and miraculous healing followed from the appeal to a particular supernatural entity, God/Jesus, it would be evidence that they do exist.

However once the printing press has been introduced, everywhere a person can to check on if something is a legend, there is a sudden disappearance of all unambiguous miracles. None the less, people still claim miracles, including healing. The healing of an amputee, something that never happens naturally would be unambiguous. So, when statistically checked, the success rate of prayer is exactly the success rate without prayer. We are left with no conclusion other than prayer doesn't work.

Therefore, we have no proof that separate the Islamic/Judeo-Christian god from magic amulets, pagan gods, psychics, the theory of Atlantis, ghosts, and all other supernatural claims. So if this site was named "Why won't the Volcano God Ugabuga heal Amputees?" wouldn't you agree with it?

Logged

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention. The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc. We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed.

But there are several problems with this kind of reasoning. First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers. It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis. Second, people of all religions make the same claims. And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally.

People never regrow lost limbs. Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets. Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover. Old people never rejuvenate.

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people. It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

I don't think they should blame god. But that is because I do not believe gods exist. But if there were an omnipotent, omniscient god, then the responsibility for literally everything would fall upon this god and he would be to blame.

Then they either believe in a god that does not do miraculous healing or they are not really believers.

A god that does not do miraculous healing is a god that is not omnipotent, not omniscient or not good. These are the only possible conclusions. As such it is not God as it is commonly described and is merely a god, like Zeus or Thor.

IF they anticipate that god is not going to show up then they are just going through the motions because the believe in belief and not a god.

I think prayer can be useful in some ways. Prayer can sometimes be a way to focus on your own attitudes and approaches. If you pray for patience it is a daily reminder to yourself to be patient and can help you actually be more patient. No ghosts or gods needed to explain that. But praying for stuff to actually happen or for limbs to regrow is futile, because there is no one listening to prayers or making them happen.

You are telling me that if you had limitless magical powers to do good, like god supposed has, you wouldn't use those powers to do good and help stop people's suffering? Don't you think that would be the moral thing to do?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

If you loved your children and had the power to heal their afflictions, would you? Of course you would. You would heal those suffering from malnutrition, cancer, Malaria, AIDS, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease, and missing limbs. There are only three requirements for a being to heal another: If a being has 1) the knowledge, 2) the power, and 3) the will to heal someone, then the afflicted person will be healed. So is it 1, 2, or 3 that your god lacks when it comes to amputees?

Call it what you want, but they usually are productive with prayer. You wish to take this away?

I'm beginning to think you don't understand the point of the website. This site and forum don't exist to kick amputees while they are down. Here is WWGHA in a nutshell: God is said to exist, answer prayers, and perform miracles. God is always given credit when a person recovers from afflictions on a cellular level. But when it comes to afflictions that can be measured with the human eye, God mysteriously never heals them- such as amputees. Why is that? Why won't God heal amputees?

Really? I could have sworn I read something about God having his hands stained with the blood of war, and having his history tied to the storm god Baal, another ancient deity of war. Hmm, maybe not. Maybe I never read that. You'll have to forgive me I- oh wait...

•Exodus 15:3 "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."•Exodus 17:16"Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." •Deuteronomy 4:34"Or hath God assayed to go and take [...] by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors[...]"•Deuteronomy 20:4"For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you." •Obadaih 1:1"[...]We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.•Revelation 19:11"[...]and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

...I guess next you'll tell me your god never ripped open the wombs of pregnant women? Or that Moses never ordered the Midianite children to be butchered alongside their mothers? Your God is as far removed from love as a being possibly could be.

I am a military man and have friends who are amputees; and the last person they blame is God.

Well, as long as they blame Him, it doesn’t much matter in what order. It was He, according to Him, who created them and ordered their lives. God is quite clear in the Bible that everything that happens is through Him. – Everything. People seem to believe that only good things come from God. This is the belief of those who have never lifted a bible or bothered to ask questions. It is about as far from Christianity as you can get.

Quote

Their prayer gives them hope

Consider this – “Hope of what? Hope beyond what an atheist has, or beyond what a child has? The grasping at a straw?” Is that really “hope”?

Quote

God doesn't make war, we do.

You say you’re not a Christian, and this supports that. There’s a lot of people out there that think that God loves everyone – He doesn’t and He makes that clear in the Bible.

Ex:15:3: The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

1Sa:16:18: Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.

1Sa:17:46: This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.1Sa:17:47: And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands.

Isa:3:2: The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

Isa:42:13: The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

Quote

There is good and evil and for any person that has been around and seen the world knows this.

Well, any Christian should, Who created Satan?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Jer:18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

This is the God with whom the faithful will spend Eternity...

Quote

We are left to our own here on our small planet.

In fairness, with 7 Billion of us, we are hardly on our own.

Quote

God doesn't interfere with that nor should he.

He’d be pleased to hear that. But apparently Jesus is going to come back and slaughter a third of Mankind (See Revelation for details) – I’d call that interfering.

Quote

God is built into us

A child brought up without God would not know of God. God is not built into us. That assumption is demonstrably wrong.

Quote

I'm sorry, but a sense of God is in us all, even you.

I have explained why this is wrong: unless you have some nebulous and meaningless definition of "God"...

Quote

You know this, but block it out with what you call rationale.

No, I call it observation. There are people out there who have never heard of God and gods. Can you explain that?

And what god might it be that is “within us”?

Quote

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because I considered myself a nonbeliever,

No, you are a believer, you always have been a believer, you were taught to believe; you have just said so.

Quote

but your site may have converted be to a believer. Thanks.....

You converted from a believer to a believer? Do you mean that you changed the flavour of your religion?

« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 05:32:19 PM by Graybeard »

Logged

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

That seems to be more the rule than the exception... wonder if there is a reason?

Part of the assumption of privilege, perhaps? Because they follow the One True Religion, that automatically gives them knowledge of their holy book?

I call that kind "hothouse flowers for Jesus". The first time they encounter those who call their True Faith into question they either run away or lapse into decidedly un-Christlike behavior. Not saying that the OP is that sort, just that I've seen a lot of 'em, especially in the MailBag.

Logged

Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.--Marcus Aurelius

I call that kind "hothouse flowers for Jesus". The first time they encounter those who call their True Faith into question they either run away or lapse into decidedly un-Christlike behavior. Not saying that the OP is that sort, just that I've seen a lot of 'em, especially in the MailBag.

This happens to anyone who has an unquestioned belief in anything. The first time they are confronted and asked to substantiate their belief, they will be shocked and indignant. It's happened to me a few times in my life with matters not concerning religion, and it's as though someone hit me in the face with a cold fish. I've learned that when I have that reaction, I need to do some serious (re)investigation of whatever my assertion was. I have learned that I am, in those cases, almost always wrong.

I just wish the fundies who came here, and are subsequently challenged by our members, would do the same... at least TRY to do the same.

(It may be helpful if one does NOT believe that one has all of the answers. Then one looks for opportunities to become better educated and more enlightened.)

Yes. All threads started in the mailbag are emails that were sent in to the general WWGHA email address by people who have read the web site, seen the videos on YouTube, or what have you, and have questions or comments that they wish to offer in return. I, as the mailman, am in charge of checking mail regularly, posting emails here (with identifying information removed), and notifying the writer that his/her email has been posted and sending them a link to the thread so they may read and/or participate if they choose to.

Logged

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Sorry chap - your little game was far too easy to see through. How does Christ feel about your lies? To say that "(you) considered (yourself) a nonbeliever".....was there not some message in the Bible about someone denying Christ, and it being considered a bad thing? Matthew 26, if memory serves.

I fucked up a couple xians this weekend. They were yapping about islam and how the koran insists muslims kill non-believers and there is nothing like that in the bible. I pointed out yhwh ordered the jews to do genocide on the midianites and in revelation jesus H was coming back to kill everyone except 144,000 male, jewish virgins. Not only did they not know who yhwh was, they were utterly shocked. Idiots.

Of course not. They think his name is God. When I was in school and read Exodus, the part where Moses asks the Lord your God his name, and he replies back, "Jehova." I thought I came across some forbidden knowledge because in my entire life of going to church, I had never heard of that. They don't know that god is just a title, like King, President or CEO.

During my indoctrination I was never taught the name Yahweh either. Every Southern Baptist church I've been associated with never covered tetragrammaton material and just went over the Gospels every Sunday. I s'pose that YHWH is for them higher learnin' folk, down South we jus' call 'im G-O-D.