May I add that many people complain about Super being childish. These people clearly didn't watch Dragon Ball and all they know is Dragon Ball Z. Yes, there was a show before Dragon Ball Z called Dragon Ball, which tells the story of Goku between the ages of 14 and 18 (if I recall correctly), and it was a way more childish and cartoonish tone. It was constant jokes and everything was made dumb intentionally.

Screw you! The Cell arc was amazing. I still don't understand your issues with it.

He started at 12 and aged to 18 over the course....And I mean, technically speaking the original manga was all Dragon Ball. There really wasn't a "Z" manga.

As for my problems with the Cell arc...

Spoiler for Hidden:

It introduces Trunks, a cool new character, and proceeds to do nothing with him. The Jinzoningen are introduced... and do nothing. #17 and #18 go immediately from being threatening, to being plot points sitting in a truck waiting for Cell to absorb them. Poor #16 is entirely meaningless in the long run, and essentially exists only as a plot MacGuffin for Gohan's SSJ2 transformation (and because of all the editor interference, we'll likely never know what his original role was going to be). Cell is introduced, and he's fun for a while, but once he reaches his perfect form, he basically just becomes Freeza again ("I'm stronger than you!" when winning, "IT'S NOT FAIR!" when losing).Outside of Vegeta and Piccolo, nobody really does anything for the whole arc. And those two are basically just there to job. Well, I guess Kuririn has a bit more going on to his credit, but it basically amounts to nothing in the end.The entire arc is spent with people waiting for Goku (again, just like the Freeza arc, except the Freeza arc had Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta actually doing stuff while Goku was on his way).The ending to the arc is complete nonsense, too. Gohan does even less than everyone else for the entire story arc, and then suddenly gets a lolpowerup out of nowhere at the ass end. Had the arc ended with Vegeta killing Cell, it might've actually meant something, since this was the arc Vegeta had his change of heart.But Gohan? Gohan sits on his ass and does nothing, and gets SSJ2 just because, and his motivations for it are just silly. Best friends and dad (and Goku) about to die? "Gonna just sit here and cry!" Random android I've never met before who wants to kill my dad gives a cheesey speech and dies? "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!"Worse yet, it drags on pretty long in the manga, while the anime is almost unwatcheable (did we really need two whole episodes of Cell giving a monologue and charging the Kamehame-Ha?).

It's also the arc entirely devoid of humor. There's very little of Toriyama's trademark comedy to be found in the arc, likely because his editor (who kept forcing him to change plot points, which is probably why everyone was useless) kept trying to force him into a direction that's not natural for him.

It's also the arc that starts the stuff most people blame the Buu arc for. The random powerups. Super-Saiyajin being marginalized to the point where everyone has it. Non-Saiyajin characters start to become cannon fodder. I'd say waiting for Goku, but... let's be honest, that started with the Saiyajin arc; problem is they were usually doing something (fighting, dying, stealing from Freeza, etc.) while waiting for Goku in the last two arcs. When Goku arrived, it was usually for his "big damn hero" moment. This one? He arrives while they're quite literally sitting on their asses, asking "hey, is Goku here yet?" Also, everyone relevant to the plot (except Kuririn) gets a transformation (except Goku, who just masters his old one).

Don't get me wrong, the arc has good moments. There are memorable scenes (even if many of the lead ups into it aren't great). But outside of those moments, the story is pretty tedious and dull. Even the time traveller winds up just kinda being there once he kills Freeza.

It's easily the weakest arc of Z, and possibly the whole series (in canon, there's definitely worse filler arcs). It lacks the threat of the Saiyajin arc, the surivalistic nature of the Freeza arc, or the goofy over-the-top nature of the Buu arc, and winds up trying to be the 'dark and serious' arc without the build up of something like the Daimao arc.

In a way, the anime version of the Future Trunks arc is likely what the Cell arc was going to be before Toriyama's editor kept telling him to change it. Despite mostly focusing on Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta we got an insight to the cast's motivations, great foreshadowing to the next arc, acompelling, unique villain, a sense of despair without losing it's humor, an interesting ongoing narrative, and character development (for both sides of the conflict no less!), and perhaps most importantly... Trunks was actually relevant instead of being sidelined. And it did so in only 20 episodes!

It may be a hyperbole to call it outright boring, but when compared to so much else in Dragon Ball, it slows to an utter crawl and it never really reaches the highs the rest of the story does, and the main antagonist is just kinda a more boring version of the last main antagonist.

I seriously can't believe there are DB fans actually following DBS. Not trying to be a troll, but I just can't watch that shit. So childish it ruined completely everything. I wtached the last episodes released (that universal tenkaichi budokai arc) and, besides the inmature Goku "Hey, I'm Goku! You wanna fight?" the animation is terribly and all that destruction gods and so seems like Toriyama is trying to stretch the gum beyond it makes sense, even for a cartoon. Supreme Kaiosamas should have been the strongest gods but okay... I know Toriyama can do whatever he wants, I probably would do the same thing, but as a viewer of one of the best things ever happen to me in my childhood, I just want it to stop.

There's so much wrong here that I don't know where to begin.First off, how is it actually any more childish than the original series? Dragon Ball always had dumb puns, fart jokes, and goofy characters. Ginyu Force, 'nuff said.

Goku has ALWAYS been immature. I don't know where people keep getting this idea that he's ever been anything other than a dipstick that enjoyed fighting more than anything else, and if anything, it was pretty clear when he went to fight Freeza on that he was turning into more-and-more of a fight-happy blood knight. The only time he's ever been depicted otherwise is in the awful FUNImation dub.This is a man who spared Vegeta because he wanted to beat him with his own power. A man who gave a Senzu to Cell because he wanted it to be a fair fight between him and his prepubescent son. A man who decided "Nah, I won't finish off Majin Buu because I think the untrained children who I don't even believe can win will have a chance to fight." A man so woefully ignorant that he promised to marry someone because he thought he was gonna get fed, and only went through with it BECAUSE he promised, despite having no concept of family.Vegeta even mentions this when he pays respect to Goku during the fight with Buu; that Goku is so strong not because he has something to protect or because he's some kind of hero, but because he's so insanely simple minded that his only goal in life is to surpass his limit.Goku is an idiot savant; a man-child fight junkie. He has almost no sense of responsibility, is endlessly reckless, and lives only to serve his own desire to fight. As Yajirobe and Muten Roshi once discussed (word for word from the English manga):Yajirobe: "Jeez, why's he look so jazzed when something so horrible is happening!?"Roshi: "I can only think it's the Saiyan blood... He does want to save them... but part of him just loves going up against powerful opponents...!"Yajirobe: "I don't know wheter to admire the guy or pity him... I mean, he's obviously got no chance."Goku (with a big ol' happy look on his face): "I can't believe it! Fighters even stronger than Vegeta!"

Why should the Kaioshin be the strongest gods? They were already far weaker than a Super-Saiyajin to the point where Goku basically laughed in one's face when he was told that he needed to beat Dabura in order to save Kuririn and Piccolo.

Also, I'm pretty tired of people claiming "the animation is terrible." Yeah, the first two arcs and that filler arc with the fake Vegeta were pretty awful, but very little since then could be considered even remotely as bad as Uchiyama's or a few other's terrible animation. And before you try to say anything about inbetweens, no... these whole scenes/episodes were frequently fugly beyond belief.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Three of those images were from movies with a larger budget, no less. Now I'm not saying DBS has great animation in general. It's pretty average. But it's honestly no worse than Z's... and at times, it's absolutely spectacular (like any cut by Naotoshi Shida):Sure, the animation could be better in a lot of places. Yeah, the art isn't as great as it could be. But it's still nowhere near 'bad' like those first two arcs or Beerus forbid something like this:

Spoiler for Hidden:

If you wanna complain about something in DBS, then complain about something like the overdone filler (which guess what... DBZ had that too!), or the baffling random return of Godku. Hell, complain about the entire lack of power scaling (you can either have Gohan and the others relevant, or you can have it be the Goku or Vegeta show, take your pick).But these claims of "Goku is stupid now" or "the animation is bad" sound like the ramblings of someone who never watched either of the original series. Goku was, is, and always shall be a dumbass, and the animation was rarely even close to top-of-the-line. Go back and watch it. For every episode done by someone like Minoru Maeda, there's 4 Uchiyama episodes.

The current arc has kinda started to drag a little, but you know what? So did the Freeza arc. So did the Buu arc. For KamiDaimao's sake, the Cell arc was straight up sluggish at times even in the manga. Hell, the Saiyajin arc had something like 20 episodes of filler.DBS really isn't that far a cry from the original anime. Time to take off the nostalgia goggles, for better or worse.

...Also, the Future Trunks arc was legitimately one of the best Dragon Ball arcs period, with TWO of the best villains in the form of Zamasu and Black. They're better than Cell. The Cell arc was boring. There, I said it.

Daaaang...that was really good. Wish it would've lasted longer tho. Would've been interesting to see Yamcha kinda keeping up with SSJ Goku. Sure, as a human he has limits but i think reaching SSJ lvl as a mere human would've been really nice for the Story.

At least we maybe could've seen the Cell Fight in which he would've been the one who distracts Cell, to make sure Gohan has success with his Kamehameha, and not Vegeta.

To the ppl who didn't read it yet: Do it now! It's really nice

10/10...would read again xD

Yeah, Dragon Garow Lee's stuff is really good. He's my personal favorite of the non-Toriyama Dragon Ball writers/artists.If you're interested, he's also been making a "What if" manga about if Vegeta were sent to Earth instead of Goku called "Dragon Ball Sai." It isn't official like the Yamcha spin-off, but he doesn't slack off in it either. Lots of dumb fun, and isn't just "here's Dragon Ball with Vegeta instead of Goku," and offers a new scenario (including some of the villains from the DB/DBZ movies, and some really great changes to history like Taopaipai becoming one of Dr. Gero's cyborgs).

Tbh i was only talking about the Anime. But you are 100% right about the Manga. It's the same over there. I think i'm just disappointed that even though this arc is meant to be a Teamplay thing, we still only get to see Goku shine. And as i wrote before, even Vegeta who is pretty much as strong as Goku doesn't get enough screen time. Thank God we'll get to see some Roshi action in the next Episode where he also might end up getting kicked out but i hope that he stays for a little bit more. And i wanna see some action from Tien too.

I would like to see more of the other members getting their time to shine, too. Especially after Kuririn beat two opponents (one of whom with his shoe which still got a good laugh out of me).I'm guessing we haven't seen Vegeta in a while because he's still making this face:

But I do agree that there has been too much of a focus on Goku in this arc. He didn't even need to be in the fight with Hit (who completely stole the show for the episode, despite the overhyped return of Godku)....Which probably means Hit is gonna get BTFO by Jiren, since this just screams "JOBBING!"

I think they took this "it's all about Goku" thing too far in DBS. And now he gets another Form again. I hope we get to see Vegeta using SSJG form (the red one) in the Tournament...just to give him another form too ya'know (In the DBS Manga he transformed into SSJG)

To be honest, the "it's all about Goku" stuff is even worse in the manga:- Goku is depicted as being able to slap Hit around even before using God form (which he shouldn't have, but he shouldn't have it in the anime either in all fairness). He's basically ragdolling Hit and then uses SSJ Blue to show off.- As naughtyword as SSJ Ikari was, it at least made Trunks relevant in what's literally referred to as the Future Trunks arc. Instead, he takes a back seat to Goku and Jobgeta.- Instead of Trunks getting the naughtyword SSJ Ikari power up, Goku gets a lolpowerup and now has a Mastered SSJ Blue that for some reason he never used until the last moment, but it makes him capable of fighting Merged Zamasu better than when he was fused with Vegeta into Vegetto, despite Vegeta being the one who was training for such a thing- Goku can now use a God of Destruction's Hakai... despite the fact that he is neither a God of Destruction nor has he even actually seen Beerus use it in the manga (Goku is not present when Beerus uses it on Zamasu in the manga). This actually creates a plothole as Vegeta recognizes it, too... despite never having seen it.

Although, maybe you meant DBS in general, and not just the anime? If so, I apologize for my mini-rant. I do think the anime has been putting too much emphasis on Goku, although the last episode mostly had him just getting in the way and getting slapped around to make Hit look more badass.I am still annoyed that he suddenly has the Godku form in the anime with no explanation though. It pissed me off in the manga too, but it feels like it was just a cheap cameo in the anime and probably will never show up again (kinda like his Wolverine-esque healing factor and universe punching in the first terribad arc).

It was a fairly fun read, although the translation was really wonky (I've seen worse).

Young Jijii's a pretty talented artist, but good grief, he traces Toriyama's panels even more than Toyotaro (although unlike Toyotaro, Jijii's art doesn't look dull and flat, and he seems to consistently draw on-model).Oh well... at least he can write fairly well by comparison.

Okay, so everyone and their mom knows about the TFS joke appearing in episode 91 (which I'm only now catching up on- legit paused the episode to bring this up).This is of course something pretty much everyone has noted at least once, and it was pretty funny...

But nobody ever mentioned at around the 7:50 mark or so in the episode, we see Zeno and his future counterpart sitting side by side looking at the camera... before everything turns dark, leaving only their eyes shown.

In the manga there is no SSJB+Kaioken that's true. But maybe it'll happen? Even if it doesn't happen, Goku is able to concentrate the energy of SSJB in his body which is also dangerous. Just like SSJB+Kaioken he could lose his life. And in the manga you can see his body giving up on him. Might not look like kaioken version but same result.

You are reminding me of that greek poet Hipponax. It is said that this guys insult game was so hard, some of his victims commited suicide. Dunno how many but it's fact that one of his victims hanged himself xDOf course you don't insult tho. You just throw out your opinion + knowledge at us...in the same way Gohan used the final Kamehameha on Cell

Btw, the poster title saying "The Works of the Gods Ends Here." could also have another meaning. Blame the japanese language for that one xD

It could also mean "The technique of the gods ends/is perfected here."Reading this, i have to assume that this new Form is stronger than SSJB.

THE MANGA IS TERRIBLE AND I NOW BELIEVE ZAMASU DID NOTHING WRONG!

Also, because you brought it up, I have to point out that Gohan didn't use the Kamehame-Ha against Cell until his dad told him to get off his lazy ass (and then it only succeeded because Vegeta knocked Cell off balance).

All jokes aside, I'm not gonna mock you much for liking the manga. You certainly have the right to enjoy whichever form of the series you want except GT.I just felt I had to clarify why I have a distaste for the manga in general. I'm a griper. Griping is what I do. And if I don't do it... WHO WILL!?But if you really want the best non-Toriyama Dragon Ball manga, you need to read that Yamcha spin-off. I'm not even being ironic. That Yamcha manga is amazing.

btw, is anyone reading the DBS manga? Cuz tbh i like the manga more than the anime xDThings go different there and those things are actually good. So if anyone is not reading the manga, i suggest you to do it.

Gonna have to completely disagree with you on that count. I think the manga is god awful.Between the flat art (although admittedly, the anime can go full on Cell arc Uchiyama at times...), Toyotaro's weird boner for Super-Saiyajin God (seriously, why does it keep coming back after Toriyama stated Goku can't use it anymore?), the power scaling that makes the anime seem consistent, the awful pacing, and the inconsistencies and Gokuwanking that make GT seem tame by comparison... I can't even remotely take it seriously.The manga has the same problem the first two arcs of the anime had: it feels like a bad Dragon Ball fanfic. Just instead of a *gags* universe punch, it creates false stakes. "Now Super-Saiyajin Blue drains your stamina when you transform! ...Until the next arc where Vegeta uses it in short bursts to fight Zamasu and Black, and so it won't drain his stamina!"I mean, I know Vegeta's specialty is jobbing and all, but the idea that he only lost to Hit because he was tired for showing off SSJ Blue against Cabba is just downright insulting to the character. Not only does it make Hit seem like a non-threat by comparison, but this is immediately after the Golden Freeza stuff (which isn't in the manga, but IS mentioned)... where both Goku and Vegeta mock Freeza for not learning to manage his stamina.And don't even get me started on Goku being able to use Hakai.I will say the manga was better at one thing, though: the Golden Freeza arc. Because the manga didn't have that.

Also, the Blue Kaioken isn't in the manga, and that's a fail because it was damn awesome.

There has been a lot of hinting lately towards a new form of some sort, with Gohan stating he's not gonna go for SSJB but try to find something "new", the strange red aura used in the opening theme, etc. There's also been a surprising lack of SSJ use lately, with a lot of characters using base forms far more often, so the new form having something to do with their normal look seems possible. I'm more curious about if this "new form" DOES exist, how they're gonna reveal it in this 48 minute battle royal (although I suspect it will go beyond the 48 minutes due to the Zenos being like "Awww, we want more!!!!").

Even if it were 48 minutes, it will likely work on Freeza Standard Time.

Goku might get a new "transformation"...or a look that looks like a new transformation....some visual sh*t.

But i'm not sure if it's just advertisement or something. To me it looks like a "new" form of God transformation. He still has a less muscular body in this Form. And as you can see in the picture below his hair goes up but remains in his natural color. Kinda like a mystic form?

I wouldn't base it off the "less muscular" thing, since everyone is scrawnier in general in DBS, but it might be a new form just the same. There's a part during the current opening where he uses the Blue Kaioken, and then for some reason is back to his 'normal' form after jumping out of his own aura.Either that or it's just for dramatic effect and we're just plain derpy.