Hey everyone, I have posted this message on TheTaoBums also. I am trying to get through to people who value and abide by Taoist/Buddhist teachings of the ancients, in their daily lives. Me and my friend have been reading ancient texts for a long time and now have come across an impasse where it is important for us to discern whats false and whats genuine... Not sure who to speak to and also not sure who to learn from as the world is full of charlatans and full of deceiving people. Everywhere we seem to stretch our hands for help, we get given answers with zero potential to follow the path and mostly empty words.

We have come across people who seem to know a lot of stuff about Inner alchemy but their actions are different to what they read, study and write so it's hard to ask questions and discuss about stuff as it seems inappropriate and fruitless. We have also come across people whose actions and words accord with what we have read and discerned, but such people require money or some sort of condition in order to help people who seek the true knowledge, which regardless what anyone says seems dodgy to start with. The so called secret of the sages which they very rarely passed it on to worthy students and practitioners (in our opinion) has been misused and manipulated in countless number of ways that deviant practises and sidetracks have appeared in result.

When people talk about Inner Alchemy on these forums, never have I come across words which speak about rectitude, good works and virtue. When people on the forums talk about Inner Alchemy and its application, never have I come across words which resembles the words of Chang Po-tuan and Liu I-ming. Are we missing something? Is there anyone who practises the way and teaching students through words and not through any physical practise or mental practise. Since when have the three paths, Confucius, Buddhism and Taoism, looked upon differently? Why do I hear from vast majority of Chinese Taoist, Confucius and Buddhists that westerners don't have the will and the means to understand the Way? Isn't it true that the Way is meant for everyone who show Karmic affinity towards it?

Surely when the ancients sat down to write the text they had the future generations in their mind and compassion in their hearts for the text o be circulated and understood by many. I am sure when they were writing the text, they weren't just thinking of Chinese people. Regardless of countless translations done on Tao Te Ching and Chuang-tzu, and other texts by Liu I-ming, Chang Po-uan, Chang San-feng, Confucius, Meng-zi, Buddhist Patriarchs, Buddhists scriptures, Buddhist Sutras, Bhagvat Gita, Journey to the West (probably the most indepth translation done by Anthony C. Yu, who devoted his whole life in bringing this book back to life), Greek philosophers, Homers Iliad, the resemblance of Roman emperors Antonius Pius and Marcus Aurelius with the Emperors Yao and Shun, all speak of one thing and that is to be virtuous and good to others. In Awakening to the Tao on the chapter "Red Flowers and Green Leaves" Liu I-ming says “Students of the Way with higher wisdom are very rare, hardly one or two in ten thousand; middling and lesser people are countless . Among the middling and lesser people, those with shallow foundations, small perceptions, great afflictions, and deep attachments must first accumulate virtue. Great virtue can overcome ghosts and spirits, can move heaven and earth, can affect people and animals. Use this to learn the Way, and the Way is easy to learn; use this to achieve the Way, and the Way is easy to achieve .

This is because the Way is the substance of virtue, virtue is the function of the Way. The furthest reach of virtue is called mystic virtue. Mystic virtue is profound and unfathomable, near to the Way , so it is easy to learn the Way and carry out the Wav based on this .”

Now listening to these words only inspiration arises in me and fears and doubts seems to vanishes, as I am very certain that I am a meddling person with zero wisdom like the ancients to put the Way into practise. Liu continues by saying, “Students nowadays do not build up virtue or do good works; when they happen to hear a saying, they immediately rush into practise in hopes of immortality, without discerning whether what they have heard is correct or not . Needless to say they will not attain reality. Even supposing they attained reality, there has never ever been a single immortal who did not achieve anything

The Great Way is not transmitted to people without social conscience, not handed on to people without goodness and virtue. The clear mirror of a true guide reflects everything – how could a true treasure be given to someone unworthy of it?

There is another kind of muddled fool who does not know how to walk on the real ground and work in earnest. Fools like this may run into true teachers but will not respectfully seek teaching from them; instead they spout a lot of nonsense, imagining that they can take people in. When the celestial mechanism is revealed, they try to usurp the teaching by devious means. Also they are incapable of perseverance after a few day s they are already asking for transmission, and then when they do not get it, they leave with angry words and recriminations.

People with mentalities like this, rushing this way and that, are uselessly wasting their lives, never to achieve anything. What they do not realize is that the Way is not apart from virtue, and virtue is not apart from the Way. How can you ignore virtue and speak only of the Way? How can you omit virtue and practice only the Way? Those who would practice the Way must first accumulate virtue.”

These words expound ultimate reality, even a muddled fool like me can see it very clearly let alone a wise man.. The one importance that all Taoist sages, including Chang Po-tuan and Liu I-ming, stress upon is the urgency to find a teacher and companions. This is so hard in this modern world and very hard for people from west to even comprehend this. This is one thing that no one seems to take utmost importance in and everyone seems to go on with their own ideas without true guidance. For this reason we are reaching out to the wise men all over so we can borrow your knowledge to break through our own ignorance. We are seeking acquaintance with fellow practitioners and people who cultivate goodness, rectitude and virtue rather than those who concentrate on physical or mental practises. I hope this post will attract relevant people and relevant companions, as it is our utmost importance to seek reality and truth, and have our mind constantly on rectitude and the Way of the sages. With much respect and humble inclination I look forward to your reply.

I have heard many times peoples talk of such things as combining virtueous practice with spiritual attainments in lofty terms as if only them and a select few could understand and partake of such things.

I have not a shred of attainment nor spiritual practice but my meditational endeavors are with more success than they were when I entered into this life.And I am a bit more compassionsate, so I have suceeded in this life in every respect to my view.

Not so lofty nor complex nor needing of great great opinions...

Karmically I fell into a perfessional field of helping, that was a karmically driven thing of fate driven by past spiritual aim.Consciously I then spent when my time doing that thing was done five years or so doing volunteer work which I still to a very limited extent do.

The reason in the main....it provided benefit of a limited sort to other but really more importantly....doing good works provides the karmic basis of effect from which we may have success at meditational pursuit.

So what is so complicated about that..do ,that happens.Expecting we can draw from past lives experience karmically, and extend beyond, with the spiritual, beyond what we were, where we were...I say that in the main is quite mistaken. Spiritual understanding in large derives from compassion and compassionate effect, as the thing we are... understanding cognicizing thing, is such a thing... understanding and cognicizing....exactly compassion. So one leads to the other. Knowing in other form expressed, is compassion..exactly different sides to the same coin.

You equal your past highest achievments that is all...what use is that? If you do not endeavor in this life compassionate intent, action, and effect.YOu don't have to be perfect..... a Dali Lama or a Mother Theresa, but you must accumulate to advance. It is that simple.The tales of those in India years ago, the 52 or so who achieved enlightenment, they were not mother theresas, or dali lama's, some, but not many...they achieved being also not perfect.

But to advance we must accumulate compassionate thing..otherwise we do not really, usually advance.This is most probably, to my opinion, a exercise in makeing ourselves understand we are worthy of enlightenment, as all hate themselves, but that is really aside, and of no matter..it must be done.

Just compassion, no meditation, a mother theresa...sorry no. She was the dullest of persons. Heaven for her...... full enlightenment...no sorry no. Many lives down the road.... entire compassion is not it as well....a cow is entirely compassionate giveing its milk to all its life itself its meat so all may eat, even its offspring so others may eat them...cows do not become enlightened.

Perhaps my response is not what you want...I don't know. No response so I offer one.

I am no buddhist expert, nor taoist expert, nor expert in any thing, but watching this thing of mind which is my profession.I suspect the religions, these differ. Tools of different sorts within each. That each has tools, does not imply each tool is the same, nor will accomplish the same result, as hoe does not work as spade. Tell me not these tools are the same and equal....they are not I know them not. Useful tools all but for differing purpose.

So tool of buddhism found within somewhere....that only will provide total enlightenment.All the talk of equality, true to a point....not true after that point.The tools found in certain select places in buddhism, only they will provide final release, and perhap then, a change in everything.They are not common however, kept most secret, and hard to find.Guarded by ignorant trolls whose aim is to eat. Demons..they will not sleep.But we may disregard their presence, and with stealth and preserverance find these things...they cannot squash out the teachings..they are as water under feet trying to be squashed.

If being obstructed from by thing such as demon troll, as such they well up from life itself, and are found in many many many things, and places.Everywhere are the teachings. The trolls think, only here or there, those places, they guard quite completely.

To be certain...I express only my own view and speak for no one here nor there.Take your tools of taoists, and others mentioned...I have no use of them. I have used them, found effect at what was necessary to be done, but are now done with them. This row requires these hidden tools found in buddhism. If not found in buddhism, found in life, mind, and thought, itself. When done with that, I will be done with that, as well. Mind, I have it: it is my tool, not guarded nor taken from me, it may be. Fully enlightened then I be, when these particular tools I find no use for.

Taoism, other things considered as equal...tell it to these others...they perhaps some maybe all ,think that so...I know that no.They will not release...you will find that so, or not, it matters not. Death takes them all...even the immortal. Many tools of the same structure are found in both but tools to hoe this row...only in Buddhism.

And to be absolutely clear and certain...I am no friend to you, dharma friend or otherwise..... mind, circumstance, life, birth, death, we are equal and the same....no friend to you for I am you. Not a shred nor hair of difference between us. I perceive you I perceive myself. You perceive me you perceive yourself. Tell tales of friending befriending and friendship to those here....I am not and cannot be any of those things. No more than I can befriend myself, may I befriend you, or any other.

So don't pay attention to this post or have moderator delete, if intention of friendship is this thread, and thusly off point is my comment....I have none to offer, this thing of friendship, dharma, or otherwise. Comment though I offer..perhaps of use to you, perhaps not. It is offered as there are no responses.

Perhaps now there is comment...others will offer comment and some, or all, may be more to your likeing and point. Or perhaps you find this one comment it does suffice.As this has been posted in the exploring buddhism section, not the introductory, or help, or personal or other sections...I have responded, thusly, in this context.

Last edited by ronnewmexico on Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.