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Author
Topic: Shiny, happy atheists (Read 26132 times)

Sheeesh, so the verdicts pretty much out. I stand accused of great harm to all those people afflicted with some form of physical disfigurement. So you two really want to believe this huh? I'm disappointed that after 5 years, not sure about you Betty, of knowing a lot about me you can form an opinion of me simply off a joke about a photo? Oh swell, it takes just a little bit to accomplish this.

Anyone else care to pile on? Maybe ya'll can convince me of how deserving I am for the bad week I've been having.

Maybe ya'll can convince me of how deserving I am for the bad week I've been having.

Poor you. Wonder what kind of bad week she regularly has due to people's cruelty about her looks?

Skeebo, you know I have a lot of affection for you, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to call you out when I think you're being unnecessarily mean to someone who isn't even here to defend herself.

If you (or anyone) posted something homophobic, I would have been expected to say something. Why should it be any different when you post something that is, essentially, phobic of people with facial deformities beyond their control?

Sure thing, Rev. I thought it was appalling that in a thread where atheism v. religion as regards morality, compassion etc was being discussed, nobody spoke up when someone posted something cruel. So I put my money where my mouth keyboard is and spoke up. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I don't particularly like the guy who said that, but the quote is apt.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

What if there is no god, because there is no need for one? What if some form of energy flows through everything and has orchestrated all that we see? Why do some humans, need to believe that everything is a result of intelligent design, rather than it just is? This is where I see the contradiction, between reality and the catholic faith. Science continues to explain the universe in which we live and humans have been interacting long before any established religion. To me, it is more plausible that through our rearing, we are taught a basic moral compass, that is ours to develop as we choose.

My parents, through example, taught me the principles of fairness and compassion and how one is expected to behave in a civilized society. Yet they only provided the basics and through living, I have refined my moral compass, to where I believe myself to be decent human being. I did not need any religion to bring me to this place and especially one that believes you begin life, with an original sin, committed long ago, by someone else. How you can promote a god, that if they were human, would be tried and convicted of genocide. To hold dominion over you, because you are imperfect (because they say so), you need redemption, but only by playing by their rules.

To me, the term atheist has relatively no meaning, because I have no need for a god. I believe there is something greater that humans, but I do not have the ability to fully comprehend it, and hopefully science will continue to shine light on some of the great mysteries of life. I believe that we are all somehow connected, but it is because we share the same species, as we certainly do not share one god.

Obviously the wee one on the right got bored with the whole photo shoot thing...atheists are sooo beautiful

Ann ...you are right about the young lady, she has a form of Treachers Collins Syndrome, it varies from patient to patient, and show up as craniofacial deformities, some are more sever than others this young lady has what would be termed as mild.

Sheeesh, so the verdicts pretty much out. I stand accused of great harm to all those people afflicted with some form of physical disfigurement. So you two really want to believe this huh? I'm disappointed that after 5 years, not sure about you Betty, of knowing a lot about me you can form an opinion of me simply off a joke about a photo? Oh swell, it takes just a little bit to accomplish this.

Anyone else care to pile on? Maybe ya'll can convince me of how deserving I am for the bad week I've been having.

Oh stop being such a pansy, Thomas.

You of all people can hardly complain about copping a few brick-bats. You're more than happy to hand 'em out yerself when the fancy takes ya.

You are right about the young lady, she has a form of Treachers Collins Syndrome, it varies from patient to patient, and show up as craniofacial deformities, some are more sever than others this young lady has what would be termed as mild.

HugsJan

Thank you! I could not think of the name of that syndrome to save my life.

Matty, could you feed me answers as I have religious debates with my "sister-in-law"? When I get flustered, my mind goes blank and I can't put up a good debate. I would love to have you debate her for me. I admire your debating skills, telling it like it is, or whatever you call it.

It's not hard Theodora. It's a bit like judo - you use your opponent's weight and momentum to fuck them up.

Consider the material you're woking with. If your sister in law is a young earth creationist (ie she believes the creation myth as told in Genesis is the truth) then you're all set. You can (as Richard Dawkins did) observe that if the earth is 6,000 years old then the continental United States must, by way of comparison, be eight feet wide.

If your sister in law is given to quoting scripture then avail yourself of The Sketpic's Annotated Bible. It's an invaluable resource. Neatly organised with useful commentary all the way through.

For example you might remind the mouthy cow of how Paul tells us that women should shut the fuck up and let men do the talking:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. (1 Corinthians 14:34).

Does she like to send out religious themed emails? Then reply in kind! Send her useful video links such as Foreskin Follies from the "Our Blood Thirsty Bible" series or the latest offerings from Mr Deity.

Buy her a book for Christmas (or even better the Solstice)! Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris is perfect for this sort of thing. It's short, cheap and written for religious sorts. If LtaCN doesn't bring her to her senses it will so enrage her that she will never speak to you again. So, really, it's a win/win situation.

As a teacher i have learned to overcome my own gut reactions to unusual appearances. I have a major burn victim in my classes now. You can look at his horrible burns, or look through them. But you can't laugh about it. I had a young man last year with hideous body odor. All his peers were flipping out. I just stayed professional and neutral. Some of his countrymen told me they spoke to him about it and he didn't give a crap about European standards, lax by the way, compared to American!When the first wave of chinese students arrived in 1990's, they had horrible teeth, breath and dental hygiene. Just gotta go on.

That woman in the pic looks happy in the moment. Good for her.

Logged

ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Does she like to send out religious themed emails? Then reply in kind! Send her useful video links such as Foreskin Follies from the "Our Blood Thirsty Bible" series or the latest offerings from Mr Deity.

I had to post this link to "Noah's Ark-- God, Giraffes & Genocide" because the story of Noah's Ark was the first time I remember questioning what I was being taught in Sunday school and vacation bible school. Even as a child this story made no sense and seemed immensely cruel and unfair. Unsurprisingly I was more upset that God killed all the animals (what did all the animals do wrong?!) than the people. The other biggie was the story of Abraham and Isaac, which to me was like a horror movie.

I had to post this link to "Noah's Ark-- God, Giraffes & Genocide" because the story of Noah's Ark was the first time I remember questioning what I was being taught in Sunday school and vacation bible school. Even as a child this story made no sense and seemed immensely cruel and unfair. Unsurprisingly I was more upset that God killed all the animals (what did all the animals do wrong?!) than the people. The other biggie was the story of Abraham and Isaac, which to me was like a horror movie.

Carnt say that I'm in agreement with you on that one, oh dear Matty. From what I recall (my joo days are now but a haze), the rape of Dinah involved the sons of Jacob committing some nasty massacre because they felt that their sister had been dishonored. It was them greedy fools that did it, teh god had nothing to do with this one.

Ford's assessment of the invisible one as an unfair, cruel, and whimsical creature is more evident in the story of the flood. How dare he kill all the poor animals just cause humans were actin' wicked and fuckin' around?

Another story that really bugged me as a kid (and still does to this day) was that of Cain and Abel. It seriously pissed me off to see the invisible guy showing preferential treatment towards the one who raised sheep --not so fair and all-loving towards those whom he created in his own image after all.

Meh, it is just a bunch of stories and genealogies that no longer move me. Hard to believe that I actually felt so passionately about this subject when I was a youngin.

Logged

"I have tried hard--but life is difficult, and I am a very useless person. I can hardly be said to have an independent existence. I was just a screw or a cog in the great machine I called life, and when I dropped out of it I found I was of no use anywhere else."

Carnt say that I'm in agreement with you on that one, oh dear Matty. From what I recall (my joo days are now but a haze), the rape of Dinah involved the sons of Jacob committing some nasty massacre because they felt that their sister had been dishonored. It was them greedy fools that did it, teh god had nothing to do with this one.

Ford's assessment of the invisible one as an unfair, cruel, and whimsical creature is more evident in the story of the flood. How dare he kill all the poor animals just cause humans were actin' wicked and fuckin' around?

I chose the Rape of Dinah because it stands out amongst the stories of the OT. It's particularly inconvenient. What metaphor is at work there? For that reason the Jesus-freaks tend to ignore it. Jews on the other hand (who don't necessarily question the goodness or otherwise of god, he is who he is and does what he does for reasons known only to him) simply see it as a thing that happened.

The story of Isaac and Abraham is about obedience and testing the faith of the righteous. One should not question the will of the almighty even when it seems horrible.

But the Rape of Dinah doesn't have a particularly satisfying moral conclusion. As you note the sons of Jacob conspire to get revenge on men they think feel have shamed their sister. The deceive these fellows and murder them. God sits back and does nothing.

I see it as an interesting example of how the OT treats women. Rape is not about the woman, rather it's about the dishonour it brings to men.

Quote

Another story that really bugged me as a kid (and still does to this day) was that of Cain and Abel. It seriously pissed me off to see the invisible guy showing preferential treatment towards the one who raised sheep --not so fair and all-loving towards those whom he created in his own image after all.

Meh, it is just a bunch of stories and genealogies that no longer move me. Hard to believe that I actually felt so passionately about this subject when I was a youngin.

Yup, Cain and Abel is a noodle scratcher. I see it as evidence of god's contempt for vegetarians. Don't bother offering him a healthy selection of garden fresh produce, only vast quantities of freshly slaughtered meat will stick to his holy ribs.

I always marvelled at Lot's preparedness to hand his virgin daughters over to the sex crazed mob of Sodom. It seems that the hospitality to strangers is more important than the rights of women:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, Bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. (Genesis 19:5-8)

Of course the daughters were not virgins. As we learn in Genesis 19:14 the wenches were married.

I always marvelled at Lot's preparedness to hand his virgin daughters over to the sex crazed mob of Sodom. It seems that the hospitality to strangers is more important than the rights of women:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, Bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. (Genesis 19:5-8)

Of course the daughters were not virgins. As we learn in Genesis 19:14 the wenches were married.

MtD

That reminded me of a Joke I once heard Matty:

A commercial traveller was driving through the Scottish Highlands when his car broke down. There was a cottage near by so he went up to it and knocked on the door. The door opened to reveal a burly Highlander. "My car has conked out," said the traveller, "Where can I spend the night?"

"Why, right here of course!" said the Scot, "Come in and avail yourself of our world famous hospitality."

The traveller duly entered the humble but cosy residence."Jeannie," shouted the host in the direction of the kitchen, and in response to his call his beautiful daughter appeared. "Jeannie, make a meal for the gentleman and remember to uphold our great tradition of Highland hospitality."

The traveller was soon tucking into an appetising meal, the girl had indeed spared no effort to extend Highland hospitality to the guest. "And now," said the Highlander, "Iím afraid I must go out and milk the cows, but just make yourself at home and take full advantage of our world famous Highland hospitality."

No sooner had the door closed behind him than the traveller set about seducing the lovely daughter. In no time at all he had her on floor and was on the job. Suddenly the door opened and there stood the Highlander. He took one look at what was going on and his face turned purple with rage. He dropped his two buckets of milk with a crash and gave verbal vent to his wrath.

"After all I have been saying about the Highland hospitality," he roared, "Arch your back woman, and take the poor manís balls off the cold floor."..sorry..

I took Matty's recommendation and read Letter to a Christian Nation. It was very interesting and made several strong arguments why religion is a bad idea. I agreed with almost everything he wrote. When I finished though I had this feeling that even though Harris is correct his philosophy is never going to catch on. The biggest problem is it expects people to be rational and many people do not operate that way. They don't want to think about morality they want a philosophy that is congruent with their intuitive feeling about their existence. Some may not admit it but many people don't want to work all this stuff out, they want to be told what to do and reassurance that everything will be okay.

It honestly reminds me of the interaction between my parents. My father is an atheist and my mother was a Christian. My father could use intellectually based arguments all day long and make perfect logical sense but my mother wouldn't change her point of view. I can hear her telling him "Don't get technical with me! You don't know anything unless it has been written in a book. I don't need to read a book to know what I know and I don't have to justify my feelings to you." Unsurprisingly she divorced him. Also unsurprisingly he didn't see it coming because on paper their marriage should have worked. I learned early that being intelligent, logical and correct doesn't always make you popular or even persuasive. I think Sam Harris is correct and that many people won't care.

Thx Ford for the comments, I have long been aware that "logic" or rational thinking had little to do with religion.... had been thoroughly indoctrinated by Nuns in early school to "just have faith"....very little in organized religeous doctrine has a "rational" basis...you either accept/believe or you dont , many accept some dogma and reject other parts of dogma...many Catholics conveniently ignore contraception but have firm belief of other issues

I had a Catholic friend who had an interesting perspective. We were having a discussion about religion and he said that he paid a lawyer to handle his legal issues, a doctor to take care of his health issues and he paid the church to handle his ethical issues. He said the church has people who have devoted their lives to addressing the hard questions and if he needed answers he would consult with them.

I had a Catholic friend who had an interesting perspective. We were having a discussion about religion and he said that he paid a lawyer to handle his legal issues, a doctor to take care of his health issues and he paid the church to handle his ethical issues. He said the church has people who have devoted their lives to addressing the hard questions and if he needed answers he would consult with them.

So Ford I have to ask , are you shiny , happy or do you still have the dull glow of a believer ? I personally think you look shiny and happy no matter what you believe .

I took Matty's recommendation and read Letter to a Christian Nation. It was very interesting and made several strong arguments why religion is a bad idea. I agreed with almost everything he wrote. When I finished though I had this feeling that even though Harris is correct his philosophy is never going to catch on. The biggest problem is it expects people to be rational and many people do not operate that way. They don't want to think about morality they want a philosophy that is congruent with their intuitive feeling about their existence. Some may not admit it but many people don't want to work all this stuff out, they want to be told what to do and reassurance that everything will be okay.

It honestly reminds me of the interaction between my parents. My father is an atheist and my mother was a Christian. My father could use intellectually based arguments all day long and make perfect logical sense but my mother wouldn't change her point of view. I can hear her telling him "Don't get technical with me! You don't know anything unless it has been written in a book. I don't need to read a book to know what I know and I don't have to justify my feelings to you." Unsurprisingly she divorced him. Also unsurprisingly he didn't see it coming because on paper their marriage should have worked. I learned early that being intelligent, logical and correct doesn't always make you popular or even persuasive. I think Sam Harris is correct and that many people won't care.

His first book The End of Faith is excellent too. He wrote it following the 9/11 attacks and Islam forms the major target of his criticism. Letter to a Christian Nation is in fact a response to correspondence he received from religious believers in reaction to The End of Faith.

His latest tome is The Moral Landscape. I'm yet to read this one. My copy should arrive soon. It deals with using science rather than religion to determine what is and is not moral.

Harris has been labelled one of the "Four Horsemen of New Atheism", the other three being Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett. Of the four he is, I feel, the most nuanced thinker. He considers all religious belief to be a hindrance to human development, but sees Islam as particularly problematic.