Re: [MoP] Great Post - I couldn't agree more

It didn't sound like to me that he doesn't HAVE the time - it sounds like he doesn't enjoy the time he's spending. I'm with him. I've been raiding since the end of Vanilla.

A large portion of the WoW player base has been with Blizzard since the beginning. Most of us were highschool or college kids when we first discovered the game, we had endless amounts of free time, and loved the sink. Most of us are now adults with families of our own, and these kind of time sinks just don't appeal to us anymore.

Blizzard has recognized that (or we thought they had) - and implemented sanity checks in their last few expansions. Granted, I'm sure it pissed off a few of the self-flagellating types, but most of us found it a welcome change. They're regressing. Raiding should be about skill, not your ability to put up with hours of brain-melting repetition every day to get to some reputation to be "ready to raid". I don't buy into that, and never will.

It's a game, not a profession. If there is not choices that are fun, I won't be playing. I personally loved being able to run dungeons, get random drops, and fill in the missing pieces from JP. Not being able to use the VP I earn from raids/dungeons to buy gear without hours a day of questing is, to me, just a bad decision.

A large portion of the WoW player base has been with Blizzard since the beginning. Most of us were highschool or college kids when we first discovered the game, we had endless amounts of free time, and loved the sink. Most of us are now adults with families of our own, and these kind of time sinks just don't appeal to us anymore.

So you want what hooked you to change to accommodate your changing lifestyle? How is that fair to Blizzard?

Also keep in mind, like someone else said, this is only the first tier of raiding. I simply see this as Blizzard trying to extend what is the end game. You only have to grind rep once.--If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.

Well Kris, personally, I don't care all that much. I just hate dailies, so I don't do them every day, period. If it slows me down a little bit, that's ok. Blizzard HAS changed to accomodate their player base - I'm sure you recognize that. I DO think this guy is a little over whiny and exaggerating, but he does have some valid points, which is why I posted it. They must recognize that there is a sizeable portion of their player base that hates dailies and loves dungeons, why not give them the option of levelling their rep how they want?

Ok... I think he voiced his complaints well. The only think I really think they "screwed up" is the ilvl gearing regarding JP/Valor and H.Dungeon drops. I just don't get the logic of the intended progression... I just don't. If you intended JP to be used to get into Heroics, fine... but why hide them behind rep gates and make it so slow to build up JP in normal dungeons? I'm glad they bumped up the JP ilvl to be higher than the pvp crafted blues... so there is some semblance of correction there.

I like having something I know I can work on every time I log on, regardless of who else logs in my guild. What I don't like, is not seeing much of an advantage to having guild groups logged on, because if I grind heroic dungeons... it sets me behind on my rep grinds... if I rep grind, I'm setting myself behind getting LFR ready (because 458 doesn't get you into LFR... you need the 463s from dungeons to get in).

One final note... I don't think MV was supposed to be the typical first tier raid of an expansion. I think it was tuned down so that truly skilled raids could clear normal mode in 463 gear (this hurts me to admit). So maybe my confusion on their gearing progression philosophy is based on my wrongful placement of MV.

Anyway, if blizz could divorce the daily rep grind from the JP/Valor expenditures... it would really make these optional choices optional. Keep the crafted mats tied to rep, I like how that plays out... but let me spend JP/Valor at rates that can benefit my guild. By the time I have the rep... the JP is garbage.--Guild leader of Pride and EgoImmergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

A large portion of the WoW player base has been with Blizzard since the beginning. Most of us were highschool or college kids when we first discovered the game, we had endless amounts of free time, and loved the sink. Most of us are now adults with families of our own, and these kind of time sinks just don't appeal to us anymore.

So you want what hooked you to change to accommodate your changing lifestyle? How is that fair to Blizzard?

Also keep in mind, like someone else said, this is only the first tier of raiding. I simply see this as Blizzard trying to extend what is the end game. You only have to grind rep once.

Until the new faction rep releases with the next patch.

Firelands released, what did they add? More daily quests and rep grind.

Darkmoon Faire releases. What do they add? More daily quests.

New expansion releases. They inject steroids into their daily quest model and rep grind.

There is nothing fun about dailys and grinding rep. At all.

I notice not one person in this entire thread has stated they are having a blast with all the daily quests they're doing (must do)every day.More of a neutral, dispassionate type of posts instead.

but yet, you will gladly farm mobs for salvagable shit to maybe get enough mats to maybe upgrade a non essential stat on gear that you can only reskin and not truely upgrade, you make no fucking sense.--Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."

but yet, you will gladly farm mobs for salvagable shit to maybe get enough mats to maybe upgrade a non essential stat on gear that you can only reskin and not truely upgrade, you make no fucking sense.

But the Guild Wars Franchise's end game is not the same as WoW. It is not tied to getting to latest gear out there. WoW is a loot driven game Guild Wars is not. Each appeals differently to players.

but yet, you will gladly farm mobs for salvagable shit to maybe get enough mats to maybe upgrade a non essential stat on gear that you can only reskin and not truely upgrade, you make no fucking sense.

its still a grind no matter which way you spin it, atleast in wow there is an end to the winding path, you have to grind out mf gear to help with the finding more shit to salvage, people tend to think that there shiny toy is better than the kids next door, guess what it isn't.--Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!"What happened in here?" " Seems to have been a bit of a squabble." "They're all dead!" " More of a tif then."

Both games have a lot of things right, but that is not the point of this thread.

True that, I want both games to succeed because it will only make the next iterations better. But apparently, people need to bash the other to somehow make their preferred game better. I never could understand that logic. Much like the iOS vs Android threads...

Yep. Can't compare anything to the holy grail that is WoW in this forum. Nothing else exists.

Because MMOs never get compared to one another, right?

Not this forum though. We'll tell on you to the mods!

A lot of assumptions in this post ^...

I'm not in the WoW forum to talk about some other game, nor does the topic of this thread really benefit from discussions of another game. That's what the more generic gaming forum is for.--Guild leader of Pride and EgoImmergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?

cool. but you saw it fit to belittle my somewhat blunt reminder that we don't need to be discussing some other game here... and made wild assumptions about my motives for doing so. Plus... I couldn't resist recycling one of your earlier comments. /hug

Strange thing is. I never said one thing about GW2 in this thread. I've been talking about WoW the whole time?

cool. but you saw it fit to belittle my somewhat blunt reminder that we don't need to be discussing some other game here... and made wild assumptions about my motives for doing so. Plus... I couldn't resist recycling one of your earlier comments. /hug

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

If they are "must do" then I agree, it's ridiculous. While everyone will have to spend some amount of time to val cap, it should be possible to val cap if you're playing about an hour a day (i.e. running 1 heroic dun per day). If they are not "must do" then the valor given for them is sugar on top of the rep that you need to get access to whatever the rep vendor is selling -- i.e maybe saving you a dun run while you're grinding rep. I don't have a problem with having to grind rep to get access to a sweet item, except that I've always felt rep based items should be BoA rather BoP so you don't have to grind the rep again for each alt.

The big problem comes if the val you get from them is not subject to the val cap. Then all of a sudden, it becomes "must do" to the hardcore types instead of a bonus.

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.--Guild leader of Pride and EgoImmergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

With respect to the dailies, whether they are "must do" depends on whether you can val cap without doing them. If you can, they are not "must do"; if you can't they are. I don't know because I honestly haven't looked. I'm doing them strictly for rep at this point, and prioritizing them based on what I want to get when.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Exactly

Sure you could have gotten to 3k valor by now without doing dailies but you wouldn't be able to spend any if you hadn't done dailies.

From this week I've found you can cap valor just from dailies (I got to 500 in 3 days of just Tillers/GL/Klaxxi

If I had done anglers and Cloud then I'd have been even closer to cap.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Yes, but like the firelands dailies you only have to do it until you get the rep you need to get the gear you want from that faction. I know that before you didn't have to spend valor to get faction gear, and that Cata had the rep tabards as an alternative to rep grinding, but I don't have a problem with having to grind rep for a faction rewards. Faction rewards should be earned. I felt that the tabards should only get you so far, but there probably is not a good or easy mechanic for that. In any case, the additional val you get for grinding rep that you were going to grind anyway to get the bis gear is a bonus. The current system just means instead of buying valor gear that you later replace with rep gear that you pay gold for, you grind rep and spend the valor on the rep gear.

To the extent the argument is that the valor vendors in the capital cities are not carrying new gear at all, where before they carried gear of comparable, but lesser quality than faction reward gear, I do have some sympathy. However, I think the max-min types would be grinding the rep to get the bis faction reward gear (and still complain about it), and so would be doing the dailies or other rep-builders until they had the necessary rep anyway. The lack of valor gear through the old valor vendors hurts the casuals who otherwise would not be grinding rep for bis gear, but who would be settling for the comparable gear. However, the alternative for them is crafted gear. Unfortunately epic crafted gear will be even more expensive to buy than in the past because many mats are BoP. However, the fact that there is an alternative takes it out of the "must" category.

Also, (more ignorance on my part) what ilvl is required for the raids? If you have to have valor gear to make the ilvl for a raid, that turns valor grinding into a "must do"; but if you can get in with blue crafted and/or heroic dun gear, then you don't have to grind valor at all, let alone grind rep to spend the valor.

I will als concede that having to grind rep with one faction before you can grind rep with another faction IS retarded. Everyone should be able to grind rep with whatever faction he thinks will benefit him most in whatever order suits his priorities.

You need to grind out the rep with the factions just to spend the Valor you've earned. That puts it squarely into the "must do" category.

Yes, but like the firelands dailies you only have to do it until you get the rep you need to get the gear you want from that faction.

So your defense is that once you unlocked all the vendors you didn't have to go back? That was what... a month? Those dailies were also a stepping stone for non or late-raider to bypass early tiers of raiding to jump onto the new hotness. Different ballgame entirely.

Now, the ilvl for LFR is 460. The JP gear is 458, and you can only replace a few pieces of gear with it. If you grind out honored you get to learn 2 epic craftables at i476 (chest/hands). Because of the JP and Valor gating, you are running heroics hoping for a drop, and then you are hoping the loot system doesn't bug out and you have a fair shot at the loot (not new) but you can't focus on the dungeons because you have to dedicate a dungeon's worth of time doing dailies otherwise you won't be able to buy the items you are aiming for (new problem).

For those in raiding guilds, they can all agree (as we have) to go in under geared and just try to smash face at i458... but as Nick put it.. those on the cusp... not quite casual (because they hit 90 fast) but not quite hardcore (because they weren't already in a raiding guild playing in beta raids)... you're stuck for a few weeks.--Guild leader of Pride and EgoImmergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)

The problem I have with the dailies is that they everything possible is gated behind them. If the rep grinds were for just Mounts or other "toys" then fine, make them as long as a grind as you want. Putting patterns and valor items behind them seems to me a way to keep players with stuff to do without adding much more content.

To me Blizz decided to just make stuff take longer to accomplish instead of actually providing more things to do. Capping valor now takes longer, most crafting requires days of cooldowns to complete, assuming you did the rep grind necessary in the first place.

The thing that was great about cata was being able to have 2-3 toons that could step in and raid easily, gear up quickly, and be on your way. Now I'll be damned if I even bother trying to get another toon to 90, grind the reps (even if they make the rep doubled for alts, double of shit is still shit, there's no way im doing this more than once.

Do I have more things to do? Perhaps. I still spend the same amount of time playing, the only difference is I feel like im being forced to spend all my time on my "main" and not bother even touching my alts, which causes a burned out feeling faster than usual.

Cata had a lot to do if you enjoyed alting. But if you were a guy who just played a main, you probably ran into lack of content.

Like, their market research probably shows they had a lot of people who raided LFR on Tuesday, capped valor by Wednesday, and went "... well now what?". This is their solution.

Forcing people to play more during the week probably keeps engagement up and makes people ... not necessarily "not get bored" but at least not get distracted.

They do a lot of experimenting. I still haven't run scenarios or challenge modes yet, but I see the very casual in my guild doing scenarios, and the more hardcore players are crying for me to come tank CMs (sorry, I still have to get a @#*&(@*#& hat from Scarlet "fuck-you" Monastery), so that's a thing.

That said, if they could have some sort of BOA rep items and NOT make my alts take a month to catch up ... that'd be nice.

So your defense is that once you unlocked all the vendors you didn't have to go back? That was what... a month? Those dailies were also a stepping stone for non or late-raider to bypass early tiers of raiding to jump onto the new hotness. Different ballgame entirely.

Firelands was an example; but the concept is no different than grinding Therazane or Wildhammer dailies (which were available right from the start) for rep for whatever their vendors offed. From a hardcore standpoint, the issue is whether a particular faction has gear that is bis for a particular toon; and if so, they "have" to grind that rep to get it anyway (whether they have to spend gold or valor), so any valor attached to the dailies they have to grind is sugar and/or relieves them of having to grind as many duns while grinding rep. It becomes an issue of whether they prefer to run duns, with plenty of chances, but no certainty, of getting gear, or grinding rep as fast as possible to be certain to purchase the valor gear. Furthermore, if future expacs sell updated valor gear through the faction rep vendors (I have no idea whether they will), you won't have to do them in future expacs to spend valor, which is consistent with prior expacs. To me, this is a strategic choice, not a requirement.

Now, the ilvl for LFR is 460. The JP gear is 458, and you can only replace a few pieces of gear with it. If you grind out honored you get to learn 2 epic craftables at i476 (chest/hands). Because of the JP and Valor gating, you are running heroics hoping for a drop, and then you are hoping the loot system doesn't bug out and you have a fair shot at the loot (not new) but you can't focus on the dungeons because you have to dedicate a dungeon's worth of time doing dailies otherwise you won't be able to buy the items you are aiming for (new problem).

Your argument is really that you have to choose between running duns, without certainty of getting gear, or the certainty of grinding rep to purchase rep gear. However, it doesn't make you have to do either or both, it means that if you have to choose or prioritize if you don't have more or less unlimited time. Running duns may be faster, but is less certain; grinding rep is more certain, but to many, tedious and slow.

For those in raiding guilds, they can all agree (as we have) to go in under geared and just try to smash face at i458... but as Nick put it.. those on the cusp... not quite casual (because they hit 90 fast) but not quite hardcore (because they weren't already in a raiding guild playing in beta raids)... you're stuck for a few weeks.

I don't disagree with this; but again, I think it means as a player you have to choose between the certainty of grinding rep to open the vendor, or the risk and possible reward of gearing faster by grinding duns. This is true of any good game: you have to make choices amid uncertainty as to what is the best strategy for what you want to do.

Really, the particular circumstance that has people up in arms here is that MoP has taken away an option that was previously available. In essence, it is a "rule change." However, it still provides multiple paths to gearing - run duns; grind rep until you can purchase; or buy or make crafted.

Believe me, I too would like the certainty of ungated valor vendors; but given the "rule change," I've chosen to grind rep so I can purchase valor gear and get access to the crafted patterns. I've prioritized grinding rep because I expect that selling the epic crafteds will be very profitable, and was going to do it for the rep items anyway. For me it kills 2 birds at once, and when I'm done, I catch up the remaining holes, gods of RNG cooperating, by endlessly running duns.

You think these daily quests are bad? Why back in my day you had to kill every boss blind folded and walk to the raids bare foot up hill both ways in 40 ft snow. That is after you grinded much harder rep, ginded dungeons much longer, got people attuned, and hell even getting max level was no joke back then.

Lol no I get it. I normaly hate quests. But the whole spam invite thing and getting them done fast that way it is not so bad. And I am getting crafting mats I need anyways. Plus I am finding rarespawns for achievements, so it's all good.

"deal with it" is always a viable conclusion statement. While we do deal with it, that doesn't mean our complaints have no merit.

I'm trying to min/max my priest so that I can better lead my guild in the first progression race we've ever engaged in. But I can't spec into double heals (which would aid our raids) because I need to keep a dps spec for the dailies. So I have to fully respec and rebuild my UI every time I realize that one healing spec is better suited than the other.

We are dealing with it... this IS a new situation... We are forced to do everything at once on our mains... we DO have legitimate complaints... we Will get past it.--Guild leader of Pride and EgoImmergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)Agrende (discipline/holy); Esclavizado (blood/unholy)