Friday, January 15, 2010

Is Jimmy Kimmel turning out to be the big winner of the Jay/Conan mess? He's not in danger of losing his show (Steve McPherson made it clear a few days ago that ABC's no longer interested in Conan), and he's had the two most biting, memorable bits of comedy so far. You've probably already seen a clip or clips of him doing an entire show in character as Jay. Last night Jay invited Kimmel onto his show for the "10 at 10" segment, perhaps hoping that the invitation and the appearance on Jay's home turf might soften Kimmel's usual tough approach. (If so, he hasn't paid attention to how harshly Kimmel tends to rip ABC during his appearances at the network's upfront every spring.) Kimmel came on, and after a few questions he destroyed Leno. You can see for yourself how brutal it was.

Fienberg and I argued last night about how surprised Jay could have been, given that he knows Jimmy's MO. My feeling is that Jay looked clearly upset by the end of the segment, and he's not a good enough actor to fake that. So either he expected Jimmy to be nice, or he expected Jimmy to get in one or two light zingers, but nothing this extensive and cutting.

There seemed a point a while back - circa the Matt Damon and Ben Affleck videos a couple of years ago - when it seemed like Kimmel was inserting himself into the late night conversation as more than an afterthought. Then NBC announced what we now know to be the idiotic baby-splitting plan of Jay at 10 and Conan at 11:35, and that was all anyone could talk about in late night. But I think after this double-whammy on Jay, Kimmel's going to be impossible to ignore.

Can anyone answer why on earth Leno asked Kimmel to come on? Who told Leno it was a good idea? THAT is the story to me. Because it's absolute insanity to allow Kimmel on. How could Leno not know he was going to get absolutely destroyed?

Anonymous- obviously the people at NBC are giving as good ideas to their talent as they are to their executives. What could possibly go wrong inviting the host who did an ENTIRE SHOW satirizing your main boy to come on the night after? It's not like he feels strongly about what's going down.

b. That he chided Jimmy for having his writers talk him into the impersonating Leno bit. Jimmy said it was his idea, a concept Jay didn't really seem to grasp. Yes, Jay, there are hosts who come up with their own stuff and are active parts of creating comedy. Shocking, I know.

one idea floated out there was that Leno invited Kimmel on to get back at him. And you can tell by some of the questions that Jay was attempting to needle Jimmy. The problem with the strategy is that Jay either doesn't have the chops or his schtick doesn't have the chops to really go at anybody. Even if he wants to fight back, he's built up an image of boring, malaise type humor that he can't break from.

Even if Jay Leno knew exactly what Kimmel would say and 'was in on the joke', the joke is squarely on him; the audience wasn't in on the joke, and Kimmel's attacks were '50-car pile up' shocking to see on Leno's turf. It didn't help that the news had already leaked about Leno stealing back 'The Show Formerly Known As The Tonight Show'. With the outcome uncertain, someone could at least say that Jay's jokes were humorous based on that uncertainty; as the perceived villain, he looked like a smug and satisfied wanker.

Jay may have won back the time slot, but he's never getting The Tonight Show back, because though his 17 year run left its spirit on life support, his return pulls the plug. It's the Leno show now, and it has no future once he leaves.

Alan, did you catch Tim Goodman on the Bill Simmon's BS report? It's a pretty scathing indictment of Leno and what kind of person he is (beyond his tired act). Just wondering if you think that all these attacks on Leno have been building for years after he's ticked off so many industry people, and now people finally have an excuse to vent about him. Do you think any of this will do lasting damage to Jay's image when he returns to the Tonight Show?

Oh God, that was brtual, so, so brutal. It was funny but so uncomfortable to watch. It reminded me a lot of the Gervais Office episode where David Brent got fired. I had to stop and gather myself after Jimmy's response to the "biggest prank he ever pulled question".

Why is NBC allowing all of this to go on on their shows? No way Conan has the creative freedom to just say and do whatever he wants. Same with that segment on Leno - why air it when it makes Leno look so bad?

Am I the only one not in on the prank, or something? Or, is NBC also managed by IMG?

He's like a college coach leaving for an NFL job. (say, Pete Carroll). After doing a terrible job with the NFL team, he still expects to come back to the school and force out his replacement.

Yes, NBC forced Leno to leave The Tonight Show early. But no one forced Leno to do such an unwatchable show in prime time. He had a golden opportunity there to make the best of a bad situation and totally trashed it.

Alan, I agree with your assessment in regards to Kimmel. I've seen the footage from all the shows from last night and by far, Kimmel did a number while on Leno. Leno should have known but maybe he thought Kimmel would throwback softballs. Besides the horrific tragedy in Haiti, it seems that most people want to discuss this fiasco. I do not take delight in the dressing down of anyone but it's a bit impossible in this situation. I blame NBC-bring me the head of Zucker. I also cannot believe the comment that Ebersol made blaming Conan for the entire mess. So much for embracing Conan. O'Brien had every right to say whatever he wanted. There were expectations made when it was announced that in '09 O'Brien would take over The Tonight Show. The whole putting Leno at 10pm disaster was foreseen before the show came on the air. Seriously, how could this whole disaster not become fodder for all? Jay having Kimmel on the show (knowing how Kimmel rolls) was like letting a wild animal loose in your home. Whoever the wunderkind's idea was to invite Kimmel on Leno's show did not do their homework. I do not feel sorry for Leno. My home is Nielsen household. I watch few shows on NBC. I feel like putting NBC completely aside. Kimmel drew more attention to himself and probably (in the short term) more people will tune in to watch now. In some ways, I applaud Jimmy for completely letting it hang out. I have friends who work for NBC and it's not been pretty there and hasn't been for some time except for those working for USA to a certain degree. Carson must be rolling in his grave. I'll stick to Stewart and Colbert.I think Conan should go cable, not FOX. I also think Letterman (as far as network goes) does the best interviews.Rant over.

Why is NBC allowing all of this to go on on their shows? No way Conan has the creative freedom to just say and do whatever he wants. Same with that segment on Leno - why air it when it makes Leno look so bad?

Am I the only one not in on the prank, or something? Or, is NBC also managed by IMG?

I don't think NBC execs are pre-screening these shows before air to make sure nothing bad is said. Even if they were, even given how woefully incompetent they've been, they at least realize the ratings gold they're getting from this fiasco, even if it's short-lived. Pulling Leno or Conan between taping and airing will do more to harm their reputation than letting them all vent their frustrations.

I don't think NBC execs are pre-screening these shows before air to make sure nothing bad is said. Even if they were, even given how woefully incompetent they've been, they at least realize the ratings gold they're getting from this fiasco, even if it's short-lived. Pulling Leno or Conan between taping and airing will do more to harm their reputation than letting them all vent their frustrations.

besides, if they edit out these bits or re-tape, that becomes news and in this day and age that video gets leaked on YouTube or the presses anyway, so everyone will still see it and now it will be a bigger deal (see: YouTube clip of Lebron getting dunked on).

I'm really tired of hearing people say this. Leno didn't get forced out. In fact, in 2004 he issued a statement that said "In 2009, I'll be 59 years-old and will have had this dream job for 17 years. When I signed my new contract, I felt that the timing was right to plan for my successor, and there is no one more qualified than Conan. Plus, I promised Mavis I would take her out for dinner before I turned 60."

If Jay had said in 2004 that he wasn't ready to retire or that he'd go to another network in 2009 then I guarantee the whole deal never would have happened. Instead he agreed to it in 2004 and only in the last year or so did he start to threaten to move to another network if NBC didn't keep him on the air.

When Leno got the Tonight Show it was because Carson actually WAS forced out. However, Carson had the class to bow out gracefully and you rarely saw him again. But Leno completely stole Conan's thunder by going on at 10:00 and is now stealing Conan's job. Sure Conan could have just agreed to do his show at 12:05, but Jay could also have said he would not take the Tonight Show back. However it's pretty clear that's exactly what he wants. Leno is a scumbag plain and simple.

This horrible idea (which was clearly Jay's Writers' idea!) worked out perfectly for the audience, especially those of us (most of us?) who side with Conan on this one. Jimmy showed once again that he can tackle the "best" of them and come out on top, and looking hilarious.I agree with you Alan, Jay clearly wasn't happy and I don't think he expected such an attack.I Loved it!

I noticed the audience didn't rally around Jay by booing any of Jimmy's barbs. Indeed, the audience seemed to be half-heartedly laughing along. Was the audience as clueless as Jay? Was the audience mindlessly forced/encouraged to laugh along?

Worse, NBC promoted this segment at the end of 30 Rock as something like "the interview everyone will be talking about tomorrow." NBC doesn't care about embarrassing its employees or institutions as long is it's in the name of promotion.

to Anonymous 12:23...i understand your point, but that statement from Leno can be read in a completely different way, one in which he is publicly showing approval of the arrangement, but privately unhappy. much in the same way Conan must have felt when NBC announced Leno's 10pm show. of course he's not going to rock the boat and complain about it. Leno probably figured all along that if it came to it, he would jump ship once Conan took over.

Kimmel use to get flack during his FOX NFL run because he would pick on Terry Bradshaw. One time his barbs hit too heavy and it made the papers that Bradshaw was pissed off so much so that he refused to speak or interact with Kimmel for several weeks. So when I heard Kimmel did the 10 at 10 thing on Leno I knew what would happen.

The fact that Jay was upset shows he has a bubble around himself and doesn't understand why he is being the bad guy in this bad PR scene. As I understand it he almost lost the Tonight Show early on because he wouldn't fire his manager/producer who was causing all kinds of problems for the show and Network.

And like the other poster earlier said Leno could've said no to the deal in 2004 and gone to another network if he wanted to continue as a late night host but he signed the deal then changed his mind and publicly complained about it.

Zucker and O'Brien were at Harvard at the same time; Zucker was editor of the Crimson, I believe, and Conan was writing for the National Lampoon. As a prank, Conan had all of the newspapers stolen before they could be delivered, so Zucker called the cops and had him arrested.

The sad part in all this hubub is that while the whole saga may have reinvigorated Conan, who was merely treading water on the Tonight Show, even if he jumps ship to FOX or Comedy Central, it's going to take months for a new show to start up. We live in a very forgetful and forgiving country. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Leno back at 11:35 after the Olympics, and by summer back to crushing Letterman in the ratings, while Conan again tries to make his comedy work before midnight.

I'd be REALLY surprised if Leno EVER regained the kind of audience he used to have. I'm sure a good chunk of his "core" audience will come back, whoever the hell they are, but anyone who has sat back and watched this drama unfold has to have written him off by now.

I thought Kimmmel's answers were funny, but I don't think they were mean spirited. Jay had to expect it and I don't think he looked uncompfortable at the end.

Letterman has been far more biting and funnier than Kimmel about the whole thing.

Frankly I don't understand why every one is so mad at Leno. I don't think Leno ever wanted to leave the Tonight Show in the first place. He was still beating Letterman in the ratings. (I am a Letterman watcher). I think all the blame has to go to NBC. They didn't want to lose Conan so they promised him the Tonight show. They didn't want Leno going some where else to compete with Conan.

While you can never know what anyone is really like, Leno seems to be a good guy. He seems to be a hard worker at his craft and you never hear any bad stuff about him. Why all the animosity?

I'd be REALLY surprised if Leno EVER regained the kind of audience he used to have. I'm sure a good chunk of his "core" audience will come back, whoever the hell they are, but anyone who has sat back and watched this drama unfold has to have written him off by now.

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out by other people, Leno's core audience is the older demographic that probably hasn't been keeping up with all the news. Plus, I've been on other message boards and the Jay Leno fans are simply in denial that he's responsible for any of this. Their argument is that Jay had better ratings so he should get to do whatever he wants.

While you can never know what anyone is really like, Leno seems to be a good guy. He seems to be a hard worker at his craft and you never hear any bad stuff about him. Why all the animosity?

You should read "I'm Dying Up Here". Among other things it goes into more detail about how much Leno stabbed Letterman in the back (they used to be good friends). Leno's actually an egomaniac behind-the-scenes, but he puts on the nice-guy persona as an act.

But, it's Hollywood. I don't think we hear half the horrible stuff people do because no one wants to piss off powerful people who can help build careers (Oprah, Leno, Ellen) or else telling the stories serves no purpose for them. Remember, everyone thought Rosie was the "Queen of Nice" until she couldn't control her image anymore.

I don't really care who the 'big winner' in the NBC mess is, as long as Leno (and Zucker and Ebersol, who are just about the biggest douches ever in all of this) ends up being the big losers on this.

But, that was awesome. There's something utterly satisfying that Leno's own audience were laughing at Kimmel's answers. Ultimately, I think while Leno underestimated just how much truthtelling Kimmel can do, and I'm sure Leno was clearly upset by the end of his own segment, Leno doesn't care - he just wants to make sure he got a ratings boost from Kimmel - so who's the vicious one here?

So, however it goes, Kimmel has gained my respect, and hopefully, Leno destroyed whatever respect he still has since the last late night wars (or since the last time he decided to have a 10pm show even as he 'passed on' his torch to his successor. Just how many months did Conan have without having Jay in front of him?).

Leno's older demographic may work against him with his unwillingness to retire. Many of them have been forced to retire early and they aren't getting paid nearly as well as Jay is. He could have said something in 2004, but chose not to and now he wants to toss the other guy out, but pretend that it isn't his fault at all. Sure NBC is mostly to blame, but if Leno didn't want to go back to 11:30, then he would just announce his retirement following the cancellation of the Leno Show and none of this rejigging of time slots would even have happened. Leno could have stopped this early, but chose not to. While Zucker is a vengeful idiot, Leno is being exposed for more than just the working class guy that he pretends to be.

My parents are firmly in that older demographic and don't understand why Jay needs to get back on the Tonight Show. Carson bowed out gracefully and they believe that Leno should too. They never even stayed up to watch Conan, but think he should get a chance to stay.

Clearly the comedians out there hate him. Howard Stern and Rosie O'Donnell are on record about their dislike of Jay and his two faced actions and Patton Oswalt isn't a fan either. For Leno to think that Kimmel would down play his attacks, when his satire was so incredibly brutal and insulting two days before, is idiotic.

I think people were willing to discredit Letterman the first time this happened, but Conan is not the snarky crank that Letterman is, and Leno will be the bad guy in this fiasco. And Kimmel is certainly going to increase his audience after this.

While it will never happen, it would be great if Ricky Gervais lays into Leno at the Golden Globes this Sunday. Of all the people picked to host the Globes, Gervais is probably the perfect candidate to do it, too, given his British wit and ability to make awkward and uncomfortable funny.

The thing is when people say Jay's primetime show stunk (which is true) they often forget to mention that it was pretty much identical to his Tonight Show. The main difference was it was on at 10pm where there is higher expectations for both ratings and entertainment level and it wasn't called the Tonight Show. The fact that the ratings for his show was low and the show itself critically panned should tell people just how poor his Tonight Show was. But people seem to just look at Jay's ratings for that and sy it makes it all better. As for Jay putting up the same type of numbers when he returns to the Tonight Show. I suspect they won't. A lot of his fans who watched his Tonight show out of habit probably won't return since the habit has been broken and many of those who watched the primetime show might decide it is not worth staying up later. The bubble has burst on Jay, a lot of his run on Tonight Show was considered sucessfull because the ratings were good, now that he has been stung hard by his other show failing suddenly he doens't have the same mystique that he had before and the same thing with the Tonight Show franchise. And of course he will also face the problems of having poor lead in to his Tonight Show (and a less successful show after him than when he had Conan following him) which will contribute to lower ratings (and the further declining of network ratings in general). Not to mention the number of people who are ticked off with Leno (certainly the bulk of the Conan fans will not watch Leno's Tonight Show so a good portion of Conan's ratings will not be there for Leno). Granted it is also possible that for some inexplicable reason (just like on his first run) Leno will some how get as good of ratings as he used to. But man do I hope that's not the case since he so screwed over Conan on this. Can you imagine how terrible his start on the Tonight Show would have been had Johnny Carson done "the Tonight Show in all but name only" that aired everyday before Leno's show? He would have died, so perhaps the ratings Conan managed to get could be considered remarkably high considering how handicaped he was... I also think Conan's Tonight Show ratings suffered because now he was up against the Daily Show/Colbert Report and a lot of their audience crosses over whereas Jay doesn't have that same crossover.

I'm a Conan guy (have met hte guy twice, the second time was 10 yrs later and he actually remembered me) and a big fan but that being said, Leno will dominate laten ight again, sadly.

Why? Because the old people who watched leno before will watch him again at 1135. they don't care anyhting about Conan. it really bothers me that people are only watching since the drama began. Conan tried his best, but i think he was a wrong fit, though they never gave him a real chance and Leno was no good at 10.

In the end, Conan will land on another nextwork but I think he should go back to his esgier stuff. I predict leno to be winning th ratings win he goes back to the TTS (and it WILL be TTS) after the Olympics.

I've asked this before but never gotten an answer. Where can I go to look up Nielsen ratings? I'd love to go back and look at the ratings for the Tonight Show from the beginning to now, compare them to shifts in formatting (adding Letterman to CBS and such).

I never get a good context for TV ratings because I just hear a number and then "good" or "horrible" next to it. Does anybody know how I can compare ratings for TV shows over time?

I didn't think Kimmel "destroyed" Leno. Most of what he said was true, but he didn't really put much creative spin on it. If anything, I think it was more mean-spirited than funny.

I agree that in this day and age, canceling anything would just make it more visible on the internet. And I'm sure there are plenty of corporate monkeys that will show anything if they think it will goose the ratings.

Overall, I love the "burn down the house" approach Conan is taking on what is likely his final shows.

It's too bad that the 11:35 post-news slot is held up as the golden chair - it seems to me that a lot of what happens later is funnier, probably because there's less pressure and more creativity. That was true for earlier Letterman (he actually was creative and funny once upon a time), Conan in his prime, and Craig Ferguson right now (for my money, the best late night show going).

The thing I love about the video is that Kimmel is clearly being a good guest at the start of the bit. He's making a couple of mild jokes at Jay's expense, but that's nothing that shouldn't have been expected. But Jay's clearly uncomfortable even with those mild comments and has no idea how to react. Then Kimmel makes the comment about having Jay on his show, Jay just says "No", and you can see Kimmel get annoyed by that. So the next question, he starts to go in for the kill, and that's when it gets savage. By question 6, I suspect Jay is probably whether to just cancel the entire bit, and by the end Jay just seems shaken and trying to put a brave face on it.

I was watching one of the entertainment shows last night and they say that the winner is George Lopez! (I only saw his show once, but it was kind of gross, and when my friends complained on a message board someone, ostensibly from TNT said that the show probably wouldn't be around long...)

Personally i think Kimmel is overrated, he just did a good job at making friends with critics under the age of 50. His only good talent is roasting people. Still he is better than Letterman but nowhere near Conan's level.

Man Jimmy doing Jay was hilarious. The really lame jokes, the moronic musical cues to let the audience know that a joke was told, and the Kevin impersonation was spot on. Awesome. And seeing him brutalize Leno on Leno's show was fantastic. And you could tell that Jimmy was holding back a bit, that he could have gone harder but he held back a touch.

You should read "I'm Dying Up Here". Among other things it goes into more detail about how much Leno stabbed Letterman in the back (they used to be good friends). Leno's actually an egomaniac behind-the-scenes, but he puts on the nice-guy persona as an act.

I've know a few people who've worked for Leno, and they all say he is truly good to his workers, so that could be why there's a lack of behind-the-scenes dish on him (vs. some of the stuff that's leaked about Rosie, Oprah, and a few others who pissed off their workers).

I think the reason Jay doesn't see it coming is that he truly believes that he is a victim. He looks back on the fact that five years ago, NBC wanted him to leave (yes, he agreed to it, but as he has said, once they suggest you leave, it's hard to object and keep your dignity), and he feels like he's the original-and-still-victim of NBC's mismanagement.

He doesn't understand, STILL, that it now rings completely false for him to make bitchy jokes about NBC when he's getting EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS and it's the other guy getting royally, horribly screwed.

I think Leno brought on Kimmel because he somehow thought they'd find commonality. He thought they'd wind up cooperating to talk about how stupid NBC is. He really still does not understand that you can crush the other guy and get your way, but then you have to be comfortable being the crusher, and you can't go back to bitching about how mistreated you are. He doesn't understand that getting your old job back at the expense of your replacement after flopping in the job they "promoted" you into doesn't really look like things have gone all that freaking badly for you.

I think Jay still thinks of himself as one of the wronged parties, and he's unable to recognize how much smarter he would be to just shut the hell up about it, since he's the one getting his way and the other guy is the one losing his job.

"He doesn't understand, STILL, that it now rings completely false for him to make bitchy jokes about NBC when he's getting EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS and it's the other guy getting royally, horribly screwed."

Linda, I don't always agree with you, but this is totally on the nose. Well said.

I actually do feel for Leno in a weird way; I don't like his "comedy" and I wish Conan had been given a chance to develop his audience. (Side note: Shut up, Dick Ebersol.) I really think this is all on NBC; maybe it's that I don't give Leno enough credit for that kind of intelligence, but I don't see him as a Machiavellian schemer.

BUT: when another guy who up until now has been nothing but gracious to you is getting publicly screwed with his pants on, and you are getting the end result you always wanted? You. Shut. Up. Make fun of NBC's management all you want, but you don't play the victim card and you don't say snarky things about Conan's ability to do the job. Forget PR, this is Manners 101.

I've know a few people who've worked for Leno, and they all say he is truly good to his workers, so that could be why there's a lack of behind-the-scenes dish on him

I can't speak from experience, Patton Oswalt has an analogy comparing working for Leno vs. working for Letterman. Google "Patton Oswalt Leno". You obviously have inside info, so take it for what it's worth.

Leno's core audience is the older demographic that probably hasn't been keeping up with all the news.

Where are people getting their "information" about "old people." (When did 40 and 50 become old? It's not like we're talking about people dying in rest homes here!

And guess what, kids - you are going to get old too. Yeah, it's TRUE!)

"Old people" DO keep up with the news, probably more than anyone, as evidenced by the fact that the audience for the evening news shows and the cable news channels skew much older than they'd like. (Check out who their advertisers are and you'll see for yourself.)

It's those younger viewers who don't keep up, as evidenced by how few of them don't know whether the American Revolution or the Civil War came first.

Because the old people who watched leno before will watch him again at 1135.

The constant hate and prejudice against "old people" reminds me of the argument Jay's manager made about why Johnny Carson should be forced out.

If it was wrong to "force" Johnny out at age 67, just because his audience was "old," it's wrong to force Jay out at 59.

I can't speak from experience, Patton Oswalt has an analogy comparing working for Leno vs. working for Letterman. Google "Patton Oswalt Leno". You obviously have inside info, so take it for what it's worth.

Well, it is only a few people, that's a big FWIW, too! I'm hoping to hear more once this whole thing shakes out. Maybe they will have changed their minds.

Someone is floating stories now that Conan treats his staff badly. I suspect the heavy hand of Zucker (or Ebersol)....

I just know that I'm gonna start watching Jimmy Kimmel Live. I listen to Adam Carolla's podcast and The BS report and you hear a lot about Kimmel from the both of them, and what happened should have been no surprise. Watch this clipand you'll see he had no problem making fun of ABC so why would he hold back for Leno. and just like someone said in an earlier post that even though they didn't like kimmel the guy can ROAST people. Just from listening to Carolla podcasts I know Kimmel loathes Leno and loved Letterman(one of his biggest influences) as a kid. I really loved Kimmel doing a whole show as Leno. The fact that he stayed in character all show long was really the funniest part I mean "Did you hear about this"?

"Old people" DO keep up with the news, probably more than anyone, as evidenced by the fact that the audience for the evening news shows and the cable news channels skew much older than they'd like. (Check out who their advertisers are and you'll see for yourself.)

In 2010, watching 22 minutes of "Evening News" is not keeping up with the news by ANY stretch of the imagination. The reason those of us under 50 don't bother the evening news is that we can find out more in five minutes of web surfing and ALREADY ARE AWARE of the news events that will be skimmed over during the telecast.

"Old people" DO keep up with the news, probably more than anyone, as evidenced by the fact that the audience for the evening news shows and the cable news channels skew much older than they'd like. (Check out who their advertisers are and you'll see for yourself.)

this is my fault. I should have been more specific when saying "news". While this topic is getting play on traditionally news outlets that older demographics keep up with, most of the discussion, anger, and emotion is coming out on Twitter, blogs, message boards, podcasts, etc. And, yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Leno's audience doesn't keep up with this technology as much as Conan's audience does. Of course, you could then argue that that's why most of these outlets are biased toward Conan (because Leno's side isn't being expressed there).