Yes. Perimeters. What does libertarianism mean? What does it not mean?

Origanalist

01-29-2017, 01:35 AM

perimeters?

OK, I changed the title. So now you can discuss.

CPUd

01-29-2017, 01:45 AM

I think one area centers around the scope of government in ensuring and protecting the rights of its citizens.

Like which rights are up to the individual to enforce/protect (without involvement of government), and when the government should be involved in enforcement.

The assumption is that some form of government is necessary.

CPUd

01-29-2017, 01:48 AM

Also what obligations does a citizen have to the government (if any).

Theocrat

01-29-2017, 06:49 AM

The fundamental parameter for a successful libertarian society is the central faith of its people. We have to ask, "Do the people believe in the supremacy and sovereignty of God over all institutions, or the supremacy and sovereignty of man over all institutions?" Once you answer that question, it will determine what the bedrock of your society will be built upon.

robert68

01-29-2017, 07:20 AM

The NAP.

osan

01-29-2017, 07:52 AM

I guess this is a uncomfortable subject right now.

Could you be a bit more specific? The question is phrased a might vaguely/broadly.

But to proceed, when we speak of anything political, we are speaking of human relations. Therefore, the central pillar of any "movement" pursuant to proper liberty must found upon proper human relation.

The nature of what we are in relation to one another pretty well spells out the totality of our concerns with respect to the notion of "liberty".

If we all hold equal claims to life, such as they may be no matter how strong or tenuous, then it becomes instantly clear that no man is born to be servant to another, nor master.

The rest follows therefrom in the most intuitively obvious fashion imaginable. That is, it is obvious to those who are of a proper bent with respect to liberty, and in order to be such an individual, one must have the qualities of the Freeman, eschewing those of the Weakman. What are these qualities? Nothing more or less than courage, understanding, and the integrity to live by what one knows to be right; to hold sacred the Right in favor of the Wrong. It ain't rocket surgery. It is, however, and endless challenge in the face of the endless temptations that bid one abandon his status as a Freeman.

To that last point, what might those temptations be? They are nothing more or less than anything that leads one to the desire of trespassing upon their fellows. Once again, the truth it simplicity itself.

Simple are these basic guiding principles, yet their practice is often fraught with difficulty. Why? Because men want what they want and those desires often run strongly against the proprieties of proper human relations.

Example: your neighbor has a fine and gorgeous wife. If you get to thinking about her too much in ways you know to be "risky", you end up going down a path that strays from the proper virtues of the Freeman. You start thinking all manner of inflammatory thoughts and because your thoughts form your reality, one cannot help but to follow where they lead, unless you cut them off before it is too late. Thinking about all the things you would do with and to your neighbors beautiful and fair wife can serve no good purpose when taken beyond mere passing fancy. To interject yourself between the parties to a happy marriage is unbecoming of a Freeman, smacking of the lowbrow thief who has no respect for even himself, much less anyone around him. It is not to say that one cannot find the wife of another beautiful and charming. There is no sin in wishing she had been yours, or any of the other mild and passing regrets one might experience. But to cling to and cultivate such emotional attachments is the mark of the Weakman and all I can suggest is that one not go to such places because it invariably causes gratuitous and unjust trouble.

The path of the Freeman is rarely easy. The path of the Weakman, requiring little of him beyond running endlessly after his undifferentiated lusts, is ultimately unsatisfying and endlessly boring, not to mention potentially very dangerous to himself and those upon whom he foists his perfidies.

The "parameters" of the Freeman are few, simple, intuitively clear, complete, sufficient, and almost never quite easy. But for the effort one is rewarded greatly, if only he is willing to see it. Alas, the Weakman is not. The saddest aspect of being a Weakman is that he chooses his status. Nobody forces it upon him and, save in very rare cases, there is no organic basis for the choices he tends to make.

We live in a world of Weakmen. It was designed for them. It caters to them. It beckons to all to join the drab, grey, suicide-inspiring dullness of Weakman culture in its false promises, held out as bait for the feeble-minded and corrupt.

While the parameters comprise a small body of simple ideas, learning to apply them is rarely easy, for it requires both broad and deep understanding of what is right and what fails. It requires the will to accept truths that are in some cases endlessly unappealing, which the Weakman stoutly refuses, often with great tantrums and brattish noise. The so-called "progressive liberal" is the textbook example of the Weakman, but many on the so-called "right" carry plenty of failings - enough to qualify them as Weakmen.

Principles and theory: easy. Practice: pure art, often difficult.

presence

01-29-2017, 08:58 AM

LIBERTY IS A RIGHT EXERCISED
NO CONTRACT: NO OBLIGATION
NO VICTIM ALLEGING THEFT OR VIOLENCE: NO CRIME
SANCTIONED PROPERTY IS THEFT AND STRUCTURAL POVERTY
POSSESSED PROPERTY IS BENEVOLENCE AND GOODWILL EARNED THROUGH WORK
PROPERTY ENTITLEMENT AND TAX ARE SLAVE PRIVILEGES AND DUTIES
UNREPENTANT ECONOMIC ACTIVITY IS THE MOST MORAL ACTION
RELIGION IS THE ONE'S MORAL EXPRESSION OF INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY
RATIONAL ECONOMIC DECISIONS CAN ONLY BE MADE BY LOCALLY KNOWLEDGEABLE INDIVIDUAL ACTORS
CITIZENS ARE SOVEREIGN FREE MEN; SUBJECTS ARE CONTROLLED BY STATE JURISDICTION

Carlybee

01-29-2017, 09:45 AM

Do we not know by now?

Brian4Liberty

01-29-2017, 09:55 AM

"Fiscally conservative, socially liberal."

Suzanimal

01-29-2017, 11:24 AM

"Fiscally conservative, socially liberal."

And if you're not? They'll force you to be. That's real freedom right there.

http://i.imgur.com/gxrfo1H.gif

CPUd

01-29-2017, 05:36 PM

How a state does business with another state-

- in what (if any) cases would the citizens delegate such authority?
- is there such a thing as a trade agreement? and what happens if another state acts in bad faith?

again assuming there is at least some form of a state.

William Tell

01-29-2017, 05:40 PM

I really think this needs to be laid down. Here.

Please give your input, everyone.

Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish?

MallsRGood

01-29-2017, 08:43 PM

What does libertarianism mean?

property rights

What does it not mean?

anything which calls for the violation of property rights

P3ter_Griffin

01-29-2017, 10:16 PM

property rights

anything which calls for the violation of property rights

^^ That's about how I'd say it.

I thought r3v did a good job here:

I'm working on a concise statement of basic libertarian ethical principles, for eventual inclusion in the Foundational Knowledgebase (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?490530-The-Mission-Advancement-Framework-A-new-site-initiative!).

Take a look at my current draft and let me know what you think.

(The parts in parentheses are eventually going to contain links to side-articles on controversial topics)

Basic Principles of Libertarianism

What Is Ownership:
1. To own something is to have the exclusive right to use it.
2. To use something is to physically change or move it.
3. Only physical things can be owned (link – intellectual property).

How Things Come To Be Owned Originally:
4. The first person to use something, which no one has used before, becomes its first owner.
5. Every person becomes the owner of his own body at birth (link – abortion).

How the Ownership of Things is Transferred From One Person To Another:
6. The ownership of something is transferred if and only if all parties agree (link – voluntary slavery)
7. An agreement is void if made under threat of aggression.

What is Aggression:
8. Aggression is the use of something (including a human body) without the permission of its owner.

Defending Oneself From Aggressors:
9. One may employ whatever force is minimally necessary to eliminate a threat of imminent aggression.

Punishing Aggressors:
10. An aggressor is liable to compensate his victim, in an amount proportional to the value of the property of which he deprived the victim (link – capital punishment)

bunklocoempire

01-30-2017, 04:13 AM

NAP & property rights.

First one to pick up a gun for anything other than imminent danger, loses. If you have a crystal ball, let's see it. If you think the nature of man is a splendid thing, prove it.

No one gets out alive, act accordingly -anything else is really just an illusion of control, a spot-on gauge of your fear, and willingness to ditch liberty at the expense of your fellow man. Which is your god? A god of selfishness and fear, or a God of selflessness and courage? Liberty only hangs with one.

Natural Citizen

01-30-2017, 05:27 AM

What does libertarianism mean? What does it not mean?

Libertarian means to be against government-over-man. Freedom from Government-over-Man. It doesn't mean anything else except for that.

Lamp

01-31-2017, 02:26 PM

Have respect for other peoples choices on how they want to live their lives. Don't hit people and don't steal their stuff unless their treaders or would be treaders. In that case defend defend yourself with whatever amount of force is required.