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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

Sabrblade wrote:Even disregarding the circumstantial differences, look at how different the personality of the third one is compared to the rather similar first two. And if the bios aren't enough, the story he appeared in should say plenty more of what he's like compared to his G1 namesake.

We have two extrememly different viewpoints on this. You have your head stuck so far into the lore that you can't see that all The Club did with Astrotrain (and Animated Stunticons and similar) is say "Ok, we have these G1 characters idea we want to re-vamp. Who can we do?"

"How about Astrotrain? He can work in the Armada Jetfire mold if we can give him a new head."

"Ok that sounds like a plausible idea. Work on digibashes and I'll talk to Hasbro."

--Later--

"Atrotrain's use has been approved by Hasbro."

"Good, let's give him a bio and work him into the current storyline."

That's what they did and that's why I refuse to call him, or the Stunticons, or Shattered Glass characters original. Because the Club, and the fans, care about the toys first and foremost and the lore is a far second. They seek to give4 us fans what we want - a modern take on previous toys, and they'll come up with whatever fiction they want to justify it. You don't seem to be able to see the meta behind the characters and lore.

On the topic of Obsidian, I don't mind that he's a prop plane because I plan on heeping him in robot mode most of the time on my shelves, and the two-rotor look is his identifying feature.

Even though I will acknowledge the characters discussed as "new", I refuse to acknowledge the fact they're "original", merely different characters cast from the same mold, different takes if you will. 2005 Buzzclaw straddles the line I admit, but overall, I consider these original:

Now, the Energon (the whole Unicron Trilogy for that matter) vs. G1 thing should be exempt, as the name reuses borderlines ludicrous and the homages are mostly body-related, not necessarily character-wise.

@Mkall: *sigh* You got me. I was talking about the character over the toy itself.

Though, thing is, the only thing really Astrotrainish about the toy is its head. The deco was taken from the unproduced Spacewarp toy. The toy was even supposed to be Spacewarp, but Hasbro couldn't get the name. So, they dubbed him "Astrotrain" and gave him a new head to help make it work.

But, answer me this honestly. Had they been able to acquire the Spacewarp name and had not given him the new head, would ya'll still consider him to be the same kind of character as G1 Astrotrain?

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

If FunPub had acquired the rights to the name "Spacewarp" and didn't give it a head that resembles Astrotrain, then I would say that they had created a new character - Spacewarp - based on an existing character (Skywarp). But they didn't do that. They made a new Astrotrain instead.

If FunPub had acquired the rights to the name "Spacewarp" and didn't give it a head that resembles Astrotrain, then I would say that they had created a new character - Spacewarp - based on an existing character (Skywarp). But they didn't do that. They made a new Astrotrain instead.

By that logic, Armada Hoist would be a different guy from Armada Smokescreen.

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

Sabrblade wrote:By that logic, Armada Hoist would be a different guy from Armada Smokescreen.

Totally different situation, and you're just confusing the issue by comparing them.

The issue here is this: If you take an existing mold, repaint it in homage to an existing character, give it the same name as that existing character, align it with the same faction, and change some details of the bio/backstory, did you just invent a NEW character?

As for the Skywarp bit, isn't it obvious? You said it yourself. Their original plan was to make a purple and black space shuttle named Spacewarp. It would have had Skywarp's colors, but instead of a plane that flies in the SKY it would have been a shuttle that flies in SPACE, hence "Spacewarp" instead of "Skywarp". If they had done so, you might have been able to argue that they created a new character, since there was no existing Spacewarp at the time. But that's not what they did. They gave it Astrotrain's name and head, thus making a new version of an existing character.

Sabrblade wrote:By that logic, Armada Hoist would be a different guy from Armada Smokescreen.

Totally different situation, and you're just confusing the issue by comparing them.

The issue here is this: If you take an existing mold, repaint it in homage to an existing character, give it the same name as that existing character, align it with the same faction, and change some details of the bio/backstory, did you just invent a NEW character?

New as in another addition to the story? Then yes.New as in completely original that's never been done before? Then no.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:New as in another addition to the story? Then yes.New as in completely original that's never been done before? Then no.

Let's go back to what started this whole debate:

xyl360 wrote:I loved the 3H figures. Most of them were completely new/original characters and were great repaints. I guess all of the Botcon homages that Funpub does might sell better to most of the fandom, but I for one would prefer original characters instead of constantly trying to shoehorn existing characters into molds that hardly ever fit them (at least IMO).

Sabrblade appeared to disagree with the suggestion that FunPub doesn't create "original characters", and responded thusly:

Now, Sabrblade's usage of the term "character toy" is confusing, as it combines two concepts in one. But the point I raised is that SOME of the example he listed, such as Buzzclaw and Astrotrain, are NOT examples of FubPub CREATING ORIGINAL CHARACTERS, but rather examples of them shoehorning (to borrow xyl360's term) existing characters into their fiction. Sabrblade appears to be arguing that FubPub's Buzzclaw and Astrotrain figures were, in fact, original characters created by FunPub.

GuyIncognito wrote:As for the Skywarp bit, isn't it obvious? You said it yourself. Their original plan was to make a purple and black space shuttle named Spacewarp.

Black?

GuyIncognito wrote:Sabrblade appeared to disagree with the suggestion that FunPub doesn't create "original characters", and responded thusly:

Sabrblade wrote:Fun Pub has created new character toys too:

Notice the "too" in my original response, indicating that I said that Fun Pub has created both new character toys and existing character toys.

GuyIncognito wrote:Now, Sabrblade's usage of the term "character toy" is confusing, as it combines two concepts in one.

I'll admit, that wording may have been a bit misleading. A less confusing phrasing would be "Fun Pub has created toys for new characters too."

GuyIncognito wrote:But the point I raised is that SOME of the example he listed, such as Buzzclaw and Astrotrain, are NOT examples of FubPub CREATING ORIGINAL CHARACTERS, but rather examples of them shoehorning (to borrow xyl360's term) existing characters into their fiction. Sabrblade appears to be arguing that FubPub's Buzzclaw and Astrotrain figures were, in fact, original characters created by FunPub.

They are, as they are portrayed quite differently than their namesakes. A character's personality and portrayal defines who they are, not their physical appearance.

Let's look at the Spacewarp example again. Had they acquired that name, he likely would have turned out to be the exact same kind of character Cyb. Astrotrain became. A bitter, cruel, independent bounty hunter who inspires loyalty in his small band of followers.

Then, let's say Spacewarp one day got into a fight that left his body badly injured. During the repair process, suppose he able to fix everything but his head. Seeking a replacement for this part, he bought a new noggin that resembled that of G1 Astrotrain. Liking the way this head looked on him, suppose that Spacewarp liked it so much that he went down to the Cybertronian legal name change center to file for a name change, in honor of the new of his new head. Now, Spacewarp has a new head and now goes by "Astrotrain", yet still continues to live the same life he always had, conducting business through bounty hunting and being loyal to his minions. Does this somehow make him a different person from how he was before his accident?

They did more than just "If you take an existing mold, repaint it in homage to an existing character, give it the same name as that existing character, align it with the same faction, and change some details of the bio/backstory" for those two.

For Buzzclaw, while they did keep the name for the mold, his deco looks nothing like BW Buzzclaw, he's has no affiliation to the Predacons (G1 or BW versions), and his bio in completely original, barely resembling that of BW Buzzclaw.

For Astrotrain, they took the Jetfire mold, gave it Spacewarp's colors, faction, and bio, and then threw an Astrotrain noggin and name on it. He's basically Astrotrain in name and head only, with everything else about him being all about Spacewarp.

Last edited by Sabrblade on Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

The official BotCon 2013 website has revealed the fifth and final figure in this year's Machine Wars: Termination Box Set, Megaplex! The figure is a redeco of the Transformers Prime Robots in Disguise Voyager Dreadwing/Skyquake mold. Check him out in robot mode below.

Our 5th and final reveal for the 2013 MACHINE WARS: TERMINATION box set is the Clone Army Commander... MEGAPLEX! Utilizing a very popular voyager mold from the Transformers: Prime line, this figure is the perfect compliment to this years MACHINE WARS box set!

So, who exactly IS Megaplex and what is his origin? Megaplex was built by Jhiaxus as a clone of Megatron, copying the Decepticon tyrant's aggression, cunning, and battlefield skills into a brand new body ready for the modern age. Charged with leading an assault against the planet Cybertron and securing the heart of Jhiaxus' new, unified Cybertronian Empire, Megaplex uses the traits he has inherited from Megatron with chilling efficiency as he smashes through planetary defenses and culls the planet below. Check out the Con Exclusives page for this final figure reveal.

The Termination has begun! Don't miss out on this amzing MACHINE WARS box set, available exclusively through BotCon!

This really caught me by surprise, Prime Dreadwing of all things. But no new head mold? I was really hoping for one, but it seems that 4 is the limit for this set. It does work in fiction a bit though, as Wings Jhiaxus has made clones of G1 characters before, but with G2 Gobot (aka RiD Spychanger) bodies who looked anything but the real deal.

Henry921 wrote:You can always be counted on to listen to reason, Pryme.

Dead Metal wrote:Have you ever, and i mean ever seen/read/heard something that is completely original and does not copy/homage/pay tribute to something else? Here's a hint: Nope. You never have and you never will.

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'

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