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View Poll Results: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

I dunno about this. Christianity has been used to justify a lot of violence over the years. Just look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, etc.

After having studied the Bible and Quran a bit, and a few writings on common interpretations by believers, I'd say there is indeed more support for violence in Islam than in Christianity. It's pretty obvious already when you compare Quran to the New Testament. But then, the Old Testament has many passages and interpretations that support much violence in the name of religion as well, yet the Jews are not known to have a lifestyle incompatible with a free, Western way of life or to use excessive violence (unless you buy into the ideas of radical Israel-critics).

Don't really know about Hinduism or Buddhism. Doesn't Buddhism hardly provide scripture at all, but is based much more on active practize, like meditation, matras and other rituals Christians might call "mystic"?

My take is that there is definitely a difference between different religions, when it comes to their "abusability" for violence and expansionism. Some can much better be abused, others require more interpretation effort to justify violence. Some explicitly command violence in a specific context, all condemn it in other context, and always the exact conclusion depends on the interpretation.

As you point out, Christianity was abused for horrible acts of violence and oppression through history, although much of that was in contradiction with much of the NT as we commonly interpret it today. Yet people found a way to make this religion suit their needs.

Also, the scripture and theology is only one factor that influences how a community of believers behaves. Ancient Romans became Christians, Middle Age Europeans were Christians, American slave owners were Christians, modern Americans are Christians. They all based their religion on the same scripture. Yet their way of life, their values, their behavior differed very much. That's why I think other factors are much more important.

Quran too includes many verses that can be used to condemn violence. Others support violence. If a majority of Muslim believers choses one, or the other interpretation, depends on other factors than just the naked word of Quran.

"Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

Of course it's not an identical situation. No two situations in different countries in history are identical. But there are some similarities on some fields.

It's not just "not identical".. it's Basically flawed, as I pointed out.
deflective.

Trivial example: Without enough young men to serve as potential soldiers, war would have been much less likely.

Trivial indeed, it doesn't support your claim about Naziism.

I'd agree that Islam is a religion that can much more easily be used to justify violence and expansionism than other religions. But there are many Muslims who pracitize Islam without doing that. If a majority of them chose to do that or not, depends on other factors than the mere word of Quran and Hadith.

So you agree with me that your last post's claim about WHICH religion it was is Wrong.. as their religion Does make a difference.

That's true. But you have to look at the context. These terrorists were embedded in various social, economic and ideological structures that furthered extremist opinions.

Another "True BUT...".. mitigating circumstance post.

Also, you will always find ****ed up lunatics ready to blow themselves up or to run amok, no matter how well their situation is. The point is, when an entire country provides prospects and a better economic situation, such attitudes are more likely to be limited to a few extremists, rather than being a mass movement supported by a majority.

But I just pointed to Pakistan's "Moderate" "majority" supporting Murder in the name of islam/against Blasphemers.
This is NOT some fringe nor "lunatics"
This is the majority.
That was the whole point of my example you now twist/MIScharacterize.
Sorry, I cannot forgive this again.

I'll agree with you absolutely that demographics and material factors are not the only factors that have to be considered. But I am absolutely convinced that reducing this problem to a mono-causal theory that exclusively blames old scriptures and ignores all other factors is not just painfully simplistic, but necessarily incapable of sufficiently explaining this problem.

Are you reading what you're replying to?
I gave TWO examples of strings I started as pointing to Demography as the Main problem.. tho I don't agree them completely, but did (uniquely here AFAIK) present them as a solid theory to DP.

Last edited by mbig; 01-17-11 at 11:27 PM.

I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.﻿
anon

Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

I dunno about this. Christianity has been used to justify a lot of violence over the years. Just look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, etc.

the Crusades were largely a defensive war (they were reconquering land), the Inquisition wasn't nearly as bloody as everyone imagines, and Manifest Destiny was a largely secularist Americanist phenomenon.

Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

Originally Posted by cpwill

the Crusades were largely a defensive war (they were reconquering land), the Inquisition wasn't nearly as bloody as everyone imagines, and Manifest Destiny was a largely secularist Americanist phenomenon.

*parties big time*

I would have never imagined we'd come so far that anybody would justify and play apologist for the Crusades, Inquisition and Manifest Destiny. Wow ... just wow.

"Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

Re: Which Religion is more "pushy?" Christianity or Islam?

This is part of the problem with these attempts to compare the two. To find adequate atrocities that can be laid at Christendom's feet, the critics have to go back 500-900 years.

The atrocities of the other extremists can be found by reading today's paper...

ORLY?

India:

National Liberation Front of Tripura, a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India classified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world, has been accused of forcefully converting people to Christianity.[6][7][8] The state government reports that the Baptist Church of Tripura supplies arms and gives financial support to the NLFT.[7][8][9] The Church is also reported to encourage the NLFT to murder Hindus, particularly infants.[9] NLFT has also declared a ban against Hindus celebrating Durga Puja and other Hindu festivals.[10]

The insurgency in Nagaland was led by the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN) and continues today with its faction NSCN - Isaac Muivah which explicitly calls for a "Nagalim for Christ."[11]

In Assam, an extremest group named Manmasi National Christian Army (MNCA) with around 15 members from the Hmar ethnic group, have placed bloodstained crosses in Hindu temples and forced Hindus to convert at gunpoint.[12]

Lebanon:

In 1982, Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia groups, supported by the Israel Defense Forces, massacred Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.[13][14][15][16] According to the BBC, the massacre was "a three-day orgy of rape and slaughter that left hundreds, possibly thousands, of innocent civilians dead in what is considered the bloodiest single incident of the Arab-Israeli conflict",[13] and Noam Chomsky has described it as terrorism.[17] On December 16, 1982, it was declared an act of genocide by United Nations General Assembly.[18]

Uganda:

The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters and sex slaves.[37] It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Christian Holy Spirit which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[38][38][39][40] LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle.[41][42][43][44][45][46]