Quick Links

Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA

The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.

Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

I'm pretty sure that the only reason teams are giving DPS a real go is 2-2-2 is on the horizon and teams that failed to do well with goats have no reason to throw themselves at the brick wall when that wall is being torn down next stage. Better to get a leg up on the next meta and get your DPS out of mothballs.

That combined with teams that played Goats super well completely forgot how to not play goats. Like the casters kept saying how Shock was adapting, but really, their adaptations were mostly trying to either mirror or goats variants that work better against DPS.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason teams are giving DPS a real go is 2-2-2 is on the horizon and teams that failed to do well with goats have no reason to throw themselves at the brick wall when that wall is being torn down next stage. Better to get a leg up on the next meta and get your DPS out of mothballs.

That combined with teams that played Goats super well completely forgot how to not play goats. Like the casters kept saying how Shock was adapting, but really, their adaptations were mostly trying to either mirror or goats variants that work better against DPS.

If teams were prepping for 2-2-2, I feel like it's safe to assume that they would do so by playing 2-2-2, not by playing triple dps comps.

I would also assume that while low tier teams might be willing to just give up on this stage and start practicing for the next one, that stage playoffs are NOT the place where we're gonna see that happen. Teams are gonna run their best strategies.

In these playoffs Shanghai were mostly running DPS comps into the three best goats teams, and they won.

The meta is actually pretty fluid right now, but goats definitely doesn't have a stranglehold on the pro meta anymore.

Kana on July 15

A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.

Actually, that's not true. It can work sometimes, if you have enough damage. It's just a composition. I don't hate it.

What I actually hate is the assumption that 222 is the only "valid" comp, as though if people find that some other comp is working for them, then something must be "broken" with the meta.

Part of that is my main (Mei) is not a great fit for typical 222's, because she cannot crank out the raw damage of a ex. Junkrat, Bastion, Reaper, Tracer, etc. So her presence requires the other DPS to sort of pick up the slack. Doing so should be easier, because frozen people are easier to shoot at, but it is still a heavy burden. She's not the only one in this camp. Damage is too large of a category with too much diversity to assuming "having two of them" is the same regardless of which two you have.

If you roll 123 instead, now it is a Tank that has the "heavy burden" of solo tanking. Which, depending on who is playing that tank, may work much better than expecting Marlin Rando Reapers to realize they are the main source of damage in the team and act accordingly.

In my experience tank and heal mains tend, on average, to have better situational awareness and teamwork than DPS mains. And I say that as a DPS main that is constantly trying to improve my situational awareness, especially teammate positioning and alive/dead status.

If they hard code 222 into the game I'm going to be furious.

Monkey Ball Warrior on July 15

"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho

I can't see them doing 2-2-2 in Quickplay, so there's at least that and the arcade.

I don't know. It's been a while, but IIRC, One Hero Limit kind of creeped its way into the game slowly, starting in Comp and then taking over everything, until all that was left is an occasional No Limits arcade mode.

Now that was a marked improvement... I wouldn't go back. I do still think limit=2 might have been very interesting, but admittedly it may not have worked well (we'll never know), and limit=1 has, in practice, worked out fine.

But I am not pleased with the general design of given these categories too much emphasis.

"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho

I'm pretty sure that the only reason teams are giving DPS a real go is 2-2-2 is on the horizon and teams that failed to do well with goats have no reason to throw themselves at the brick wall when that wall is being torn down next stage. Better to get a leg up on the next meta and get your DPS out of mothballs.

That combined with teams that played Goats super well completely forgot how to not play goats. Like the casters kept saying how Shock was adapting, but really, their adaptations were mostly trying to either mirror or goats variants that work better against DPS.

If teams were prepping for 2-2-2, I feel like it's safe to assume that they would do so by playing 2-2-2, not by playing triple dps comps.

I would also assume that while low tier teams might be willing to just give up on this stage and start practicing for the next one, that stage playoffs are NOT the place where we're gonna see that happen. Teams are gonna run their best strategies.

In these playoffs Shanghai were mostly running DPS comps into the three best goats teams, and they won.

The meta is actually pretty fluid right now, but goats definitely doesn't have a stranglehold on the pro meta anymore.

Well, they still want to win. 2-2-2 doesn't beat goats, but triple DPS can. The thing is, it's been able to all season.

Question. What actually changed in the patches between stage 2 and 3? The core of triple DPS is the Pharmacy, yet they haven't been touched all season. Reaper and McCree got buffs, but they're not even being played. The Doomfist buff is live, but pretty sure it's not for OWL. Hell even ignoring 3 DPS, what's with all the Sombra goats? She hasn't been changed either.

The reality is goats has been dead for months. When Blizz made sweeping DPS buffs, nerfed armor, and sent Brig into the trash heap, things that all happened before stage one, goats was dead. The only sign of life it should have had is introducing Baptiste to replace Brig in the comp, but only Shock, just now, are actually running Baptiste goats.

Innovation is extremely difficult and time consuming with no promises of payoff or results. It's always far easier to just play what everyone has collectively decided what is best, whether it Dive, or Goats, and beat them in the mirror. Innovation becomes refinement on the established meta which only makes it more difficult to dislodge as people spend hundreds of hours perfecting it, with hundreds more hours of seeing other teams perfecting it, that possible counters don't have the luxury of having.

It goes all the way back to when Brig first came out and the pros gave a solid "meh". An extremely broken character designed to break dive won't break dive, cause pros just want to mirror and be better. el oh el.

Teams that were getting stomped by Titans and Shock should have stopped running goats against them at the start of stage 2 if not the end of stage 1. The stubbornness/arrogance of pro play is for me the most frustrating thing to watch this season.

Actually, that's not true. It can work sometimes, if you have enough damage. It's just a composition. I don't hate it.

What I actually hate is the assumption that 222 is the only "valid" comp, as though if people find that some other comp is working for them, then something must be "broken" with the meta.

Part of that is my main (Mei) is not a great fit for typical 222's, because she cannot crank out the raw damage of a ex. Junkrat, Bastion, Reaper, Tracer, etc. So her presence requires the other DPS to sort of pick up the slack. Doing so should be easier, because frozen people are easier to shoot at, but it is still a heavy burden. She's not the only one in this camp. Damage is too large of a category with too much diversity to assuming "having two of them" is the same regardless of which two you have.

If you roll 123 instead, now it is a Tank that has the "heavy burden" of solo tanking. Which, depending on who is playing that tank, may work much better than expecting Marlin Rando Reapers to realize they are the main source of damage in the team and act accordingly.

In my experience tank and heal mains tend, on average, to have better situational awareness and teamwork than DPS mains. And I say that as a DPS main that is constantly trying to improve my situational awareness, especially teammate positioning and alive/dead status.

If they hard code 222 into the game I'm going to be furious.

There were rumblings that if the 2-2-2 goes through there may be some big rebalancing for characters to follow after. Namely for Brig. Hopefully, they finally take a real look at Mei because yeah she's been left in the dust with all these other DPS buffs they've been flinging around. Not to mention making tanking more fun to play in general, as tanking has increasingly felt shittier and shittier to do.

It does make me wonder if that means that quickplay will have the restriction too and no hero locking will moved to arcade similar to no limits. Otherwise such rebalancing will make qp a mess.

It's too bad that they're rolling out 2-2-2 right as the pros are breaking out of goats groupthink, but they need to get it out ASAP to make comp more bearable for us plebs

Hah. You think comp is bad now, just wait until two people insta-lock DPS and another sulks and refuses to lock in a role.

You will almost certainly have to pick a role before you queue up, for exactly this reason. Enforcing 2-2-2 without giving people a way to guarantee they get the role they want is a recipe for a trashfire disaster.

It's too bad that they're rolling out 2-2-2 right as the pros are breaking out of goats groupthink, but they need to get it out ASAP to make comp more bearable for us plebs

Hah. You think comp is bad now, just wait until two people insta-lock DPS and another sulks and refuses to lock in a role.

Well no, the entire point of the lock is so you can turn comp into a role queue. And I can play dps without getting stomped because my ability with Genji is 500+ SR lower than my ability with Reinhardt

It's too bad that they're rolling out 2-2-2 right as the pros are breaking out of goats groupthink, but they need to get it out ASAP to make comp more bearable for us plebs

Hah. You think comp is bad now, just wait until two people insta-lock DPS and another sulks and refuses to lock in a role.

Well no, the entire point of the lock is so you can turn comp into a role queue. And I can play dps without getting stomped because my ability with Genji is 500+ SR lower than my ability with Reinhardt

the problem with this is the same problem the mmo scene has had forever. The majority of people want to play dps. So if they force a role lock before queue, a lot of people are going to be waiting a loooooooooong time.

It's too bad that they're rolling out 2-2-2 right as the pros are breaking out of goats groupthink, but they need to get it out ASAP to make comp more bearable for us plebs

Hah. You think comp is bad now, just wait until two people insta-lock DPS and another sulks and refuses to lock in a role.

Well no, the entire point of the lock is so you can turn comp into a role queue. And I can play dps without getting stomped because my ability with Genji is 500+ SR lower than my ability with Reinhardt

the problem with this is the same problem the mmo scene has had forever. The majority of people want to play dps. So if they force a role lock before queue, a lot of people are going to be waiting a loooooooooong time.

As a tank main, I'm ok with that. Maybe those people who constantly lock DPS will realize other roles can be fun, too.

It's too bad that they're rolling out 2-2-2 right as the pros are breaking out of goats groupthink, but they need to get it out ASAP to make comp more bearable for us plebs

Hah. You think comp is bad now, just wait until two people insta-lock DPS and another sulks and refuses to lock in a role.

Well no, the entire point of the lock is so you can turn comp into a role queue. And I can play dps without getting stomped because my ability with Genji is 500+ SR lower than my ability with Reinhardt

the problem with this is the same problem the mmo scene has had forever. The majority of people want to play dps. So if they force a role lock before queue, a lot of people are going to be waiting a loooooooooong time.

it's either that, or you get game after game of people throwing or just being generally grumpy because they don't get to play the role they want. if we're gonna have this system, i'd much rather wait a little longer for a game where everyone gets to play what they want, than suffer through a bunch of matches where half the team is unhappy

My main point really is that there are not three roles. This game is just not that simple. Saying a hero is a "Damage Hero" tells you almost nothing about how that hero plays or how they can help the team. All it actually says is their health pool and healing throughput are probably moderate at best.

The game released with 4 categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Tank), and I'd suggest that wasn't quite enough, but it was at least closer to the truth than the current state of things.

"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho

I don't disagree with that either! I generally find it aggravating to just declare this or that class/character/composition in any game as "non-viable" and then socially pressure everyone to not touch them. Anti-fun IMO.

My main point really is that there are not three roles. This game is just not that simple. Saying a hero is a "Damage Hero" tells you almost nothing about how that hero plays or how they can help the team. All it actually says is their health pool and healing throughput are probably moderate at best.

The game released with 4 categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Tank), and I'd suggest that wasn't quite enough, but it was at least closer to the truth than the current state of things.

Offense and Defense were bad categories, though. There are main tanks and off tanks, single target healers and AoE healers, etc. However, I'm fine with the simplified 3 categories. You don't want to get overly specific with that stuff.

My main point really is that there are not three roles. This game is just not that simple. Saying a hero is a "Damage Hero" tells you almost nothing about how that hero plays or how they can help the team. All it actually says is their health pool and healing throughput are probably moderate at best.

The game released with 4 categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Tank), and I'd suggest that wasn't quite enough, but it was at least closer to the truth than the current state of things.

The Damage role was actually a concession to the complexity of it. They weren't trying to say that all those heroes are interchangeable - rather they were giving up on trying to classify exactly what role they each fill. That's on you, the game is simply saying that they aren't a tank or healer.

I've been spinning in circles on how to phrase and frame this for an hour, so let's go with laconic unordered statements:

Nobody intentionally designs a game such that the majority of players aren't having fun. (For the team composition definition of "having fun", which is "playing the role you want to".)
When designing a class-based game from the ground up, the fear of creating a pile of indistinguishable, interchangeable characters outweighs concerns of how the meta will form out of their abilities and the player base's preferences.
The instinct is to create characters with clear mechanical differences: Reinhardt, Mercy, and so on.
When competing for team slots, specialists will drive out generalists and hybrids.
A team of specialists in different fields will outperform a team of generalists.
Tank-like and healer-like abilities reinforce themselves and each other.
Therefore, the optimal composition tends to have multiple Tank and Support specialists, which most players don't want to play.
The only way around this is to practice extreme trigger discipline in the design of non-combat abilities; e.g. pinning healing at Zenyatta/Lucio and tanking at Zarya/Brigitte.
I can't fault Blizzard for not seeing that three years ago.

I think the solution, if they actually want to address this, is to redesign both tanks and supports to be less specialized. Change Rein/Orisa to no longer be "main tanks," all the tanks are now brawlers akin to Roadhog, or divers like Winston. Similarly give the support characters better combat capabilities, and reduce their healing to be more supplemental. Yes it definitely normalizes the roster in a way that not everyone will like, and the reduction/removal of shields as a game element will mean a ton of things have to change downstream. That's an Overwatch 2 level of change, and I'm not sure if they ever really want to do that even in a new game.

One big drawback to this is that some people really enjoy being a pure healer, and Overwatch is pretty unique in its ability to provide that in an FPS format. I think you could figure out a way to keep a character or two like that (i.e. Mercy) while reducing their impact so they're viable but not required. Maybe give her other support abilities beyond her healing.

Out-duel a McCree, then get ambushed by a Tracer. I Iceblock, but break early in case she has pulse bomb. She did, and ends up wiffing it. I throw up Ice wall to hide in a corner. The big brain move is I throw down my ult just to zone out the Tracer from getting in close and just punching me to death and get her in a range I can head shot her.
It works! I didn't F9 it, but hey, there is a replay system now, so I grabbed the clip in obs.

My main point really is that there are not three roles. This game is just not that simple. Saying a hero is a "Damage Hero" tells you almost nothing about how that hero plays or how they can help the team. All it actually says is their health pool and healing throughput are probably moderate at best.

The game released with 4 categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Tank), and I'd suggest that wasn't quite enough, but it was at least closer to the truth than the current state of things.

Offense and Defense were bad categories, though. There are main tanks and off tanks, single target healers and AoE healers, etc. However, I'm fine with the simplified 3 categories. You don't want to get overly specific with that stuff.

I agree, they were bad names, and they put the wrong heroes in them. I only meant that four is better than three.

I also agree that this isn't a big deal today. I'm... maybe not fine, but at least willing to accept the existing categories, but only while they remain informal guidance and not a concept baked deep into the mechanics of the game. As soon as you start doing things like limiting how many of them you can have and setting up independent queuing, the glaring deficiencies of doing this with only three groupings with the existing hero diversity suddenly becomes kind of a big deal.

edit:

Oh look, a new Mei skin I probably won't get only because the universe always conspires to ensure I never get the new Mei skin.

Why yes I am still a little sore about having been a few hundred gold short of affording the watermelon skin when the event ended, how could you tell?

Monkey Ball Warrior on July 16

"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho

My main point really is that there are not three roles. This game is just not that simple. Saying a hero is a "Damage Hero" tells you almost nothing about how that hero plays or how they can help the team. All it actually says is their health pool and healing throughput are probably moderate at best.

The game released with 4 categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Tank), and I'd suggest that wasn't quite enough, but it was at least closer to the truth than the current state of things.

Offense and Defense were bad categories, though. There are main tanks and off tanks, single target healers and AoE healers, etc. However, I'm fine with the simplified 3 categories. You don't want to get overly specific with that stuff.

I agree, they were bad names, and they put the wrong heroes in them. I only meant that four is better than three.

I also agree that this isn't a big deal today. I'm... maybe not fine, but at least willing to accept the existing categories, but only while they remain informal guidance and not a concept baked deep into the mechanics of the game. As soon as you start doing things like limiting how many of them you can have and setting up independent queuing, the glaring deficiencies of doing this with only three groupings with the existing hero diversity suddenly becomes kind of a big deal.

edit:

Oh look, a new Mei skin I probably won't get only because the universe always conspires to ensure I never get the new Mei skin.

Why yes I am still a little sore about having been a few hundred gold short of affording the watermelon skin when the event ended, how could you tell?

You get the Mei skin automatically if you wing 9 games during Week 2. Considering that most people do this anyway through arcade you should be fine. Happy Mei day!