WCIII DotA had game modes to accomplish stuff like this. If I recall, ARAM came from typing -AR -AM (EDIT: It's -OM for Only Mid) at the start of the match to randomize characters and disable top and bottom lanes. I remember -WTF gave everyone infinite mana and 100% CDR.

I don't disagree with the dream, I love it, but recently here at EU servers we had nasty lags and glitches (I cought them like 3 times, with players being somewhat frozen for 3 minutes average). The way you may accomplish this is ensure foolproof design, just as parts of Yi's rework (skin + E + Q) was partially inspired by forums - references withheld.

Otherwise I must tell the truth, with tons of custom games dedicated to 2000 MS hecarim's and 1000 Armor Yi's and 9001 Hp Sion's builds aren't going to reduce lag.

Alternatively, I'd suggest that there was some kind of meta gamemode or something that provided soil for new meta's, otherwise not obeying meta gets you into trouble. Edit: Their idea was that Season 3 gives more flexibility and variance on game, so I guess I'll spare a few seconds and post on EUNE about this.
http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=4994376#post4994376

Edit: Okay, I may have lacked some sleep, here's a fixed version:

I do not disagree with sandbox mode, but there are visible issues with this idea. This may induce lags and we have had a bad experience in EUW and EUNE servers, up to two extreme cases of everyone being frozen (youtube probably has it.). However, in past Riot has made changes based on requests in forums, just as Yi was reworked and some of this rework such as no delay Q came from forums - not going to link that.

Otherwise I must be honest - games dedicated to fun building and generally just trolling or stacking whatever aren't going to reduce lag. No matter how much you want it the majority wants to avoid lags, and this is not in favor of more custom games, as sandbox mode would imply having more players test out item builds.

Alternatively, the chance of testing out builds and items could be reworked in another way, for example, if there was a gamemode which would be easy at non-standard metas, for example, items buy and sell for the same price. Because now running a non-standard meta often makes it hard to communicate with team, and generally makes the game harder.

Ideally with Season 3 they tried to achieve more choices between builds, for instance, brutalizer is now much more flexible and the game a little more changing - differing. But as I said, it's really hard to test new things out, which leads us to ask riot to solve this, and as I posted, it could be a map/gamemode that basically : can't snowball, is gold friendly (and items sell for equal amount), kills are not worth very much and still the map has some obstacles, if you wanted to train roaming etc.

I'd love to keep the dream alive, but on EU servers we still have problems with lag, glitches (I've countered at least 3 instances where a champion was frozen for 3 mins.) Sandbox mode can only come after Riot ensures that the current game is "foolproof" in it's "design", and we can help if along just like Yi's rework was partially inspired by forums.

Ignoring these problems and serving up a sandbox mode will just lead to an exacerbation of the problem. (2000 Ms hecarims, 1000 armor yi's, and over 9000 HP Sion's are just gonna take up server bandwith).

On another note, instead of a sandbox mode, why not introduce some kind of meta gamemode to help the meta evolve.

Then he goes on to say Season 3 was supposed to make things more interesting and that he made a post on EUNE.

Exactly, didn't think it wasn't obvious when I posted that, but I lacked sleep, recently I've seen more and more login queues alongside custom games getting limited. Because custom games aren't helping the server, at best they cause more lags. Which is why riot is not going to jump up at this idea imo.

Riot is most likely not in favour of more custom games, and a sion with over 9k hp is an example of wasting server resources, yet almost no one in this thread has any idea of the issues, they just blindly beg for their great idea, but when servers will be all lagged they wont realise their mistake.

Its not wasting resources, thats like saying aram and people practicing cs with customs is a waste of server resources. I doubt there would be a huge increase in custom games and no way near enough to create lag.

Are you saying that riot should disable normals not solo custom games, or that you like to manipulate my example into curruption, I was referring to pointless fidgeting with game. Not arams which are older than dominion. And for fuck's sake, you never should use custom games for training laning skills, for obvious reasons, unless you are laning against a friend. Those things are not even related to thread. For finding a solution means more than yelling how everyone thinks custom games dont cause lag.

I never mentioned normals, i also didn't manipulate your example, this sandbox mode would not be pointless, you are ignorant if you argue otherwise, also TONS of people that use customs to practice cs, these games do factor into my custom games not making lag.

One thing this subreddit needs is a Riot to-do list on the sidebar so people can stop making the same threads over and over. and riot can see what they need to work on. I don't usually complain about them but the fact they get upvoted so much as if it were the first time is getting annoying.

When I say to-do list, I mean anything from content to fixing glitches. Things that everyone knows league needs but hasn't been addressed yet. Trundle and Rumble Skins, Sandbox mode, Aram queue, Client remake etc. People really don't understand the impact we have on LoL. I've seen glitches get put to the top of reddit and it's fixed next patch. If Riot were able to see a list of things that need to happen or be fixed it would help them so much more, and less repeat threads on this subreddit, works out for everyone.

While a to-do list is good, it doesn't show how many players have an interest in a certain feature. If Riot sees the same idea pop up in threads over and over, they WILL and I repeat they WILL talk about it at company meetings and perhaps take steps to execute it. If you just had a list without the comments, Riot doesn't know how valued each suggestion is.

So while it's a good idea, I still think we need the threads so the community can provide input and additional suggestions AND gauge player impact/value.

Yeah I agree, when I said to-do list on the sidebar I meant a link to a thread containing the list. I don't know how it would show the amount of player interest but I think when there's a surplus amount of threads about one topic then it should go on the list. Mainly the list is for people who think their idea haven't been thought of before but they have. Maybe in the to do list thread only mods could put comments and people upvote it from there? Or people can just comment and the ones with a good amount of upvotes gets put in the main part of the thread. just some ideas.

I would honestly love this idea. The only problem is, things like Pulsefire Ezreal Where? will haunt Riot for ever releasing an idea earlier than they can implement, even if it is with the Soon TM tag or whatever.

Plus from what Ive read and heard about Riot creativity, they dont have the most standard ways of starting or fixing stuff, but rather have a meeting where people throw in ideas and go from what sounds best.

For instance, currently on the list would be a Karma/Heimerdinger rework, something that is being worked on by someone, but taking its time, and the longer it takes, the more annoyed the mass community gets.

I think it's good to have these threads up voted and brought up constantly, it serves as a reminder for riot staff when they browse reddit. the longer the threads are visible, the higher the chances a wider audience of rioters are going to take note.

Well, dude, it's the first time I'm seeing this thread so that's why I'm upvoting it. Maybe it's the same with the other X amount of people. It's a repost for you but just a normal post for me.
Yea, and your idea is cool. :)

I honestly think adding "Server Status" icons to the sidebar would be more beneficial. Similar to how /r/Minecraft does it.

Although it may not entirely stop all of the posts asking if the servers are down, it might prevent most.

I recall reading a mod post not too long ago addressing the sidebar and that it's limited to a certain number of characters. Meaning they can't simply add anything we want. I don't know how reddit works in that regard so it could have simply been made up.

Back when the private test realm was still around we basically had this for testing purposes. There were potions that maxed you to level 18, potions that gave you 100g per use, 10000 gold per use, refreshed all cooldowns, etc....it was pretty useful :)

I'd like to say that that isn't absolutely true. While last hitting in Dota 2 didn't make my lasthitting in LoL any worse, the windup animations in Dota 2 are so much longer that it's an entirely different system to get used to. It didn't make me better either.

Every time I come back to LoL now, last hitting is trivial. Champions do so much more base damage from level 1 than Heroes do in DotA2, and the attack animations are nowhere near as awkward as Clinkz, Zeus, Razor, etc.

This, I picked up DoTa 2 around new years after I got my new comp and was able to run it. And holy shit, that game has a much higher learning curve than LoL, and last hitting in it is a lot more difficult since each character has a vastly different animation, and you don't attack right away.

Its not just you, pros can use it to keep muscle memory up. This is Dendi, pretty famous Dota2 player due to his aggressive plays. He is playing Invoker (you know, that hero) in WTF to keep his muscle memory trained.

id love if riot would cut themselves a piece of dota and work on balancing the game. dota-champs come out like twice a year, so they have enough time to balance them. you cant balance a game if you add new content every few weeks (the game would be way funnier, if you could just pick anything and still win, instead of having to stick to standardbans and picks)

That's not true, Valve has changed a lot of heroes and Valve doesn't focus on cosmetic changes, it lets the community handle that while focusing on converting heroes and balancing. The engine has already been created, and it's easy to create models with the source engine.

i wasn't around for when LoL was in beta but if the client has stayed the same since, then that's fucked up. i believe riot has more employees than valve at this point and they've got nothing to show for it. how many employees do you need to design champs, skins and other gameplay stuff?

Implementing anything into League is incredibly difficult because of the backwards client they have. Source is much more powerful and manipulatable. Air was a fast and cheap solution at the time when picking clients, not knowing if League would take off as it did.

Adding a few menu options to the client isn't hard (it's genuine functionality additions that are hard). Adding the sandbox mode into the game client (as opposed to the Air lobby) may or may not be difficult; it sounds like they may already have it internally, meaning it'd just need some polish.

From the view of a wannabe software developer:
A lot of Riot's incoming/recent features would be trivial for any entry-level software engineer to implement in a development environment. For example: Friend Notes.

The thing is, the system has to scale. Let's say you have 300 people on your friends list, and you have 30 million players. That's a lot of data that you have to store, and a lot of data which you need to be able to quickly query.

You don't fall behind in playerbase but you can certainly fall behind on features. (new maps really don't count when you could be adding something as simple as a "starting gold value" to custom games but for some reason refusing to)

No matter how many features DotA 2 has, I still can't get over the fact that the gameplay is so different (in a bad way for me). The graphics are unclear, muddled, and hazy. The color scheme makes things blurry. Trees and paths are hard to distinguish in certain spots of the map. Even the heroes and abilities are hard to distinguish, despite the fact that I played high-level competitive DotA for over a year.

To each their own, really. The gameplay of any title will never fully satisfy everyone but the core intention of producing Dota 2 in the first place was to provide a universal platform from which Dota fans could play the game with an enhanced experience while allowing new possibilities which the (no pun intended) ancient WC3 engine could not deliver. As someone who's been a long time fan and has played thousands of WC3 Dota and Dota 2 matches, I've got to say that Valve + Icefrog really hit the sweet spot for me and so many others.

For one games aren't all about the graphics. After playing Dota 2 for so long I've gotten used to pretty much everything there is to - from all the juking paths of the map, to the aesthetics, to the animations and spell effects. Naturally if you haven't played it for too long (even as a Dota 1 player) you'll still get pretty confused and that's understandable. Whenever I talk to my LoL friends I jokingly mention how LoL is set in a bright, colourful playground as opposed to Dota 2's muddled battleground. I guess one way to think about it is that while the map of Dota 2 isn't nearly as bright or colourful as LoL's, it's definitely of a much higher fidelity with a bunch of little details I've come to appreciate (the little wild creatures found all over the map etc). It also makes the heroes stand out more.

The heroes and abilities are actually one thing I find Valve does to a higher level of polish than to Riot. The character designs for heroes in Dota 2 is far more diversified than all the human(oid)s you find in LoL and they are of a much higher fidelity (obviously) so zooming in or viewing them through the model viewer you can see their particle richness. Spell effects are perhaps one thing that stands out between the two titles for me. While LoL was supposed to be designed to be easier to grasp, I find its spell effects are too same-same-ish. Dota 2's spell effects are vastly more diverse to me.

As someone who's been a long time fan and has played thousands of WC3 Dota and Dota 2 matches, I've got to say that Valve + Icefrog really hit the sweet spot for me and so many others.

Here's the problem though. For a game to become big as an eSport in the way that Riot and Valve are trying to do with LoL and DOTA2, it needs to be clearly understandable very quickly to someone who doesn't even play the game.

To use your own phrasing, LoL's bright colorful playground does this very well when compared to DOTA2's muddled background.

The character designs for heroes in Dota 2 is far more diversified than all the human(oid)s you find in LoL

Completely agree.

and they are of a much higher fidelity (obviously) so zooming in or viewing them through the model viewer you can see their particle richness

Which doesn't matter much when you play constantly zoommed out as far as you can.

This isn't true in the least bit. It needs to be somewhat easy to understand quickly.

Cool Story Bro time: The first time I saw any League gameplay was at an IEM NY tournament (at ComicCon 2 years ago). I was waiting for the SC2 matches to start, and they were playing LoL, so I watched some of it. I distinctly remember seeing champions like Trundle, Gragas and Anivia, because their spell effects were big and flashy, but no matter how much I watched I couldn't understand what they were doing except trying to kill each other.

The same thing happened when my grandma sat down to watch American football with my brothers and I on Thanksgiving. We had to explain everything to her, even the most seemingly obvious of objectives (like, "the team with the football is trying to make their way down the field so they can score points"), because all she could gather after watching in silence for 15 minutes was that a bunch of overgrown men like running into each other.

Counterpoint Story Bro time: I've had to explain to someone that Broodmother's spiderwebs are not actually part of the Dire's side of the map and that they are something that the big spider champion is placing. This situation arose because throughout the match the Broodmother player had pretty much only placed webs on the Dire half of the map which is already dark and dead so spiderwebs among the trees just made sense.

This is the type of stuff I'm talking about. You were able to tell that Trundle, Gragas and Anivia were doing things even if you didn't get what they were doing.

When someone who has never played mistakes an ability for something that was just map decoration you have failed to make that ability clear.

Edit: The "cartoony" aspect of the game adds to this greatly. Blizzard used to be king of the character "silhouette", meaning things were quickly identifiable even at a distance by the general shape of the character. Valve also did this extremely well with TF2.

No, but the current DOTA2 Broodmother webs look like they belong to the map. Compare it to how it looked in DOTA which looked very much seperate from the map because of the limitations they had in the WC3 engine.

1) Give it more volume. As it is right now it looks like a relatively flat texture slapped on top of the map texture. Give it some more height so that it looks like an object.

2) Make the current texture not fade out as slowly at the edge. I get why they fade it out like they do. To most it's going to look better with the slow fade. However it makes it far less clear where the actual border is and also contributes to it looking like part of the background.

This is a great point, and there are definitely some aspects of a game that need to be easy to understand and distinguish. But I don't think that your story is countering mine (or at least, it shouldn't be, if it is I worded my post badly). My point was that it was okay for there to be initial confusion or non-understanding, but that certain aspects of the game need to be easily readable (for example, when there's some player-created action on the field, like a Broodmother web or a Caitlyn trap).

As I re-read my post, I notice I forgot my conclusion. So yeah, my bad!

The bigger difference that the guy who responded to is how much explanation was needed for people to understand the game. Watching football the only explanation really needed for someone to understand what is basically going on is that the teams are trying to get the football into the other teams endzone. Soccer is another good sport that is so easily explained that anyone can watch it.

With league you already recognized what champs were doing what. So I could give you an a quick explanation of the players do things like kill each other and other things on the map to get stronger then the other team and eventually destroy the other teams base.

With DOTA I have had people explain it to me but the bigger problem is I see things happen and I can't figure out whos doing what. So even if I understand the objective of the game, I can't watch someone play it because the basic parts of the game aren't obvious.

With DOTA I have had people explain it to me but the bigger problem is I see things happen and I can't figure out whos doing what

The only way to know that is to play it, a lot. I mean Dota have about 440 more spells that are mostly very distincts to each other and a single peek at the game wont make you know ALL the spells that exist in it

But I don't think that your story is countering mine (or at least, it shouldn't be, if it is I worded my post badly). My point was that it was okay for there to be initial confusion or non-understanding,

Yes, we're on the same page here. It's just my opinion that currently the initial DOTA2 period lasts long enough that non-players will lose interest in trying to follow it.

That's one of the things I love Riot for - they've spoken many times about the topics of readability and burden of knowledge, and they're always trying to keep those on the forefront of their concerns. And of course their cartoonish look helps a lot with this - we couldn't have Iceborn Gauntlet's proc effect or Varus's ult particles being as visible as they are without it.

My main problem trying to get into DOTA2 (I still want to, but I've been out of MOBAs for a while anyway, LoL included) initially was the not knowing what the fuck to do.

After having played LoL for so long, sure, I had the basics down (farm creeps, destroy enemy base, etc.) and knew of some other special things DOTA has (like denying), but the items. Holy shit the items...

Like 80% of them had active skills, and since I was coming from a game that had like... 8 active items at the time (S2), yeah. And of course, not knowing what's good and stuff since I was starting. And learning all the heroes... I enjoy the game, from what I played, though. I didn't really feel any different when I started playing DOTA2 than when I started with LoL. In both cases, I didn't know what the fuck was going on. XD

You should consider checking out the "Learn" page in the DOTA client. It is very informative about the specific champions. As far as I know, it doesnt say much about the items, but if you find a hero that you like it gives you a starting point to start learning the different items.

Items were the big obstacle to me too - but I think that's because once you reach a certain understanding of LoL, when you try and jump ship you expect to jump to a similar level of understanding (like you have successfully with objectives, farming, etc) but then the items are just so alien.

After playing DotA2 for a few months, it's much clearer - I appreciate the Learn tab so I can read up on items + heroes while in-queue! Lots of heroes go for very few active items typically, so it might be worth investigating those, also.

WC3 Dota has been an e-Sport for several years and yet look at it. You can barely tell the difference between a hero and a creep sometimes.

I'm talking about it breaking through to mainstream where people who don't play the game watch. Which is what both Riot and Valve want for their MOBA. More exposure equals more potential players who might be interested.

it needs to be clearly understandable very quickly to someone who doesn't even play the game.
To use your own phrasing, LoL's bright colorful playground does this very well when compared to DOTA2's muddled background.

This is ridiculous to me. The color scheme of a map isn't going to affect how quickly someone understands something. I don't picture someone watching a game of StarCraft 2 on a colorful map and saying "Wow I get it!" vs. a darker, desaturated one and somehow being confused because it's a different color palette. Dota 2 may have darker environments but everything is still very clearly defined.

I think it's more a matter of transition than it is an objective X vx. Y. Coming from 2+ years on LoL with the colorful and cartoony graphics to Dota 2's more mature, desaturated scheme was quite jarring for me. Once I got used to it, though, it wasn't as big of a problem, but I suppose it's all about the willingness to endure and get used to something.

I played a ton of DotA, and making the switch from DotA->LoL was a lot more seamless than from LoL->DotA2. The more I think about it, the more I attribute it to the relative distances or ranges in the game. In DotA and LoL, the spells travel pretty much the same distance on the screen (average probably 1/3 to 1/2 screen length), but I feel like a lot of the spells in DotA2 go a lot farther on my screen. DotA2 is like playing zoomed-in in DotA/LoL.

This and the much darker color scheme are what make me prefer LoL. I started LoL and DotA2 at about the same time, and today, I have 800 or so LoL games, but only 180 DotA2 games. This is despite me being one of those DotA:Allstars players who trashtalked HoN, and LoL from the beginning. Although DotA2 may be gameplay-wise closer to DotA, LoL was much easier for me to get adjusted to, mostly because of the bright, easily-differentiable colors, and the less zoomed-in nature of the camera.

ITT: Some people think LoL is clearer, other think DotA2 is clearer. Everyone is downvoting everyone else. How mature.

And to add a bit of personal opinion:

HoN is (was? Is there still someone playing it?) the shoddy grey mess described here in my opinion.

LoL is extremely clear and has high contrast, bright graphics that make everything pop.

DotA has a darker (you could call it mature) color scheme but I think the contrast, thanks to well done lines, is extremely well done and surprised me quite a bit when I saw it.

TL;DR: While my personal opinion as someone who has played LoL is obviously biased, I think LoL is a bit clearer because of the brighter colors. DotA 2 is nowhere as far behind LoL as people say here though but actually pretty damn close which is even more impressive considering their color scheme.

Yeah sorry for the TL;DR not being one. But hey, at least I managed to make a post that all thee camps (LoL players, DotA 2 players and the 5 or so HoN players) can downvote;)

Graphical clarity isn't something you get used to, it's something inherent in the game. It's like overcoming a handicap - okay, now think about how much better you'd be without the handicap.

League of Legends, and I'll say this time and time again, is the best game in the world because of a few factors, but the biggest one is GRAPHICAL CLARITY. You can understand what's going on without any context for most abilities. My friend who has never once played the game will catch me at the end of a game if he comes over before I finish a round. He recognizes a lot of characters from only seeing me play it for 4-5 minutes a handful of times.

"Oh is that the 300 guy?" "Oh is that the drunk fatass? Hahaha he's awesome" "Is that the grabby guy (Blitzcrank)? He looks like a lot of fun"

He has no idea what the game is about or the intricacies, but he recognizes what each character is doing, just from the visual cues and style. Pantheon is throwing spears and jumping from the sky. Gragas is rolling huge wine kegs that pop. Blitzcrank is shooting a grabby rocket fist at people to pull them to him. I never had to explain those things.

I've played League for over 2 years, but never played DoTA. When I installed DoTA 2, I had no fucking clue what was going on. Everything's really flashy, but the graphics are muddy and unclear as to what's really going on. It's got a really high barrier to entry. That removes a lot of people from ever playing it right there. And since the larger the player base is, the more fun it is to be involved with a game, League continues to grow.

You can understand what's going on without any context for most abilities.

Avid Dota2 player here. I just don't understand what the difference here is. Once you see a hero/champion do something, you immediately associate that thing with that hero/champion anyway. I feel your argument is just a continuation on "muddy and unclear graphics" without examples, no offense.

EDIT: Perhaps it's because the graphics are, in general, "darker" than League or WC3. Possibly because there's lots of individual hues of colors on textures?

Contrast, distinctive and clear animations and effects, lots of things contribute to it. It's why WoW PvP was so great in Vanilla/BC and got horrible in WoTLK. Too many visually similar sparkly effects make it harder to understand what's going on. You can get past it, but League of Legends is easy to understand from the get-go, visually.

be honest here how much dota 2 did you even play? i played like 1200 games of league before i quit and recently this year got an invite for dota 2. when i went back to try league for fun i played a game and i had no clue what was going on because there's been so many new heroes since i last played. and on top of that everyone has some crazy skin that changes their heroes model and abilities so even the shit i used to know has changed so much.

if i went back to and stuck to lol for a while things would probably start making sense to me again and that's my point i guess. i've played enough dota now that i'm so familiar with all the heroes and their abilities it just makes sense to me when i see it.

It isn't like one of them is "Where's Waldo", but this is a perfect example of visual contrast. You can see the Blitzcrank grab cutting through the background like a knife: white and bright orange against a dark teal. The Pudge hook is dark gray on green. It isn't like it's invisible, it's just less visually clear. I wish people discussing this with me would be rational and understand that.

As someone who's played both DotA and League, I can see where both sides are coming from. Thing is, both sides seem to be lacking the proper terminology to accurately discuss their points.

To be short and apt: Graphics vs Aesthetics.

League has great "Aesthetics," which leads to the "easily recognizable" comments that everyone is talking about. Come teamfight time, the big messiness of it all can be deciphered by the distinct visual clues each champ has.

Dota 2 has great "Graphics." The overall graphic quality of the models, particles and map scenery have a way more touched up, "polished" feel. Unfortunately, these "pretty" graphics that the champs have are sometimes shared, or somewhat similar to each other. This can make following a teamfight much harder to those who are in the learning phase of the game.

Hit the nail on the head. Dota2 is higher fidelity but nothing is distinctive. The champs in league just stand out way more and in the process enhance the gameplay imo.

I'm sure if you play dota2 heaps it becomes second nature but to a noob its quite offputting. Also is it just me or do the champs in dota2 seem to float, not walk. They don't seem anchored to the ground at all. Looks not good to my eyes. Also the character design in dota2 is just kinda unappealing.

How much time have you spent watching DOTA2 streams? I had the exact same problem when I first played League, but after PLAYING it for a rather small amount of time, it became much clearer and easy to understand.

Abilities are more complex and give less visual cues than in League of Legends. When I first started playing League of Legends I would understand the first time I encountered something what it was. When I tried to get into DoTA 2 there were so many times where I was left wondering what the fuck was that character and what the hell did he/she do to me?

I'm not going to read the rest of the comments since I'm feeling a little lazy, but I started in WC3 and then DotA. I later learned about LoL and I've been playing for an year and a half, and I also picked up DotA 2 this last fall.

Here's the thing - DotA 1 was just shit in terms of graphical clarity. Once you got used to it and learned that ten of those moving things are heroes and the rest are creeps, then it's not so bad. But due to graphical limitations of the WC3 engine, it was very hard to tell heroes apart. A lot of it had to do with the health bars all looking the same.

LoL is obviously graphically distinct with high contrast. You can't argue against that. The argument here is whether or not DotA 2 has unclear graphics or not when compared to LoL.

DotA 2, in comparison to LoL, doesn't have muddled graphics. The main problem I had learning it was recognizing what spells came from what hero. In LoL you know which champion did what. Each champion is distinct in looks and personality. Although they are almost all humanoid (which annoys me, but that's beside the point), they each have their own color scheme that the model and spell effects follow. Brand is all fire. Nami's spells are all distinguishably water-based. In DotA 2, there are all kinds of heroes. The problem isn't that they're hard to see or distinguish from creeps or background. The problem is that to the untrained eye that has very little experience with the game, they all look the same. The color scheme in DotA 2 is slightly washed out. It feels watercolor-based. I personally love it, but it was hard to understand what was going on at first. In LoL I didn't have to look at the champion cards to see which champions did what. They were all easily distinguishable and when a champion I had never seen cast a spell, I knew it was him and not that other guy over there.

For DotA 2, on the other hand, I had to look at the hero pages to clarify which heroes did what. It wasn't so bad because it was something to do during the long queues, but for newer players the game can be hard to learn. The spell animations aren't as clear, in my opinion. Before I knew much about the game, I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between Engima and Dark Seer and their spell effects - if both were on the same team, I wouldn't have been able to tell who was casting Black Hole. Many spells that don't have projectiles also do not have clear casting animations, like vacuum on Dark Seer. A skill in LoL that has no projectile is Ryze's Rune Prison. This one has a comparable casting animation, but stands out due to its spell effect - the ring around the affected unit. Combined with the casting animation, it is apparent that Ryze casted this. In the case of Dark Seer, although the casting animation is the same, the effect is not as apparent. While a newbie might be trying to figure out what Dark Seer just did, he'll suddenly notice everybody being sucked into a random space. Without any purple particles to go along with the vacuum effect, it would be hard to know for sure whether it actually was Dark Seer or not who casted the spell.

That is just one of many examples. Sorry about the wall of text, I got a little bit out of hand.

Odd i have a friend that never played Dota, and the first time he played Dota 2 he said everything was clearear and neater than in league. Wich is reverse in my case, I play more Dota 2 than League and everything seems so flashy and WTF in League, not to mention is hard to recognize the champion when they pick them up with skins that change greatly the look of them

I think a lot of people who played dota1 already knew and fully recognised the art styles for a lot of heroes, even if their abilities are completely different to the equivalent hero from WC3. Going to a videogaming society last semester and playing a lot of dota1 with them, i had NO idea what was going on, i couldnt recognise a single character or what any of their abilities did other than the ones i played for those 5-6 games we played. I got a dota 2 invite last week and have played about 7 games. I genuinely recognise and understand what most heroes look like and do in dota 2. It may seem blurry to you compared to dota1 where you may have recognised the models and general art style, but i think that dota 2 is definitely clearer than dota 1. Also legacy keys and item shop system, what the actual fuck, who thought that was a good idea.

It's a contrast and color choice thing. Warcraft 3's engine was made by Blizzard, who is probably the best on the planet at graphical clarity and contrast in games. Look at Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, Starcraft, Starcraft 2, and Diablo 3. You can tell what's going on pretty easily. DoTA 2 just doesn't hit that visual sweet spot as well as WC3's engine did - it isn't about fidelity, it's about your brain being able to sort through more information in a shorter amount of time because of its clarity.

Thick black lines around the edges of models and of bits of the model where colours change. LoL has this to some degree, too. DotA2 makes less effort to distinguish edges so everything kinda blurs together for some people.

Comparison's mean that you automatically find the flaws in DotA 2. I'm sure I could find someone with your exact argument and issues with League. It's all perspective.

Yes, DotA is darker, this may be harder for someone who plays league to distiguish spells but I'm sure there are DotA fans who think that League is "so bright, flashy, and confusing, there is no contrast."

No, that's not how visual contrast works. Visual contrast isn't a subjective thing. There's a slider in many games (and many monitors) to increase or decrease the contrast. People may prefer effects that don't contrast for other reasons, but contrast is quantifiable and objective.

Contrast is not only a difference in light, where I agree league is better, but also a difference in color. If the ground is dota is black and the ground if league is blue/green then colored spells will be easier to see in dota. In neither game is it really hard to distinguish spells after about 5 minutes

Same here with HoN. I installed it and played some games but I really don't understand the UI!
When starting at LoL I was really fast at knowing which button does what. If I hadn't played LoL before I wouldn't even have understood how to activate the abilities! When playing LoL I exacly knew after tutorial: "Ashe can can shoot arrows in a cone with her first ability!"
Sorry if my English is a bit broken :/

Look at the contrast between the ability and the background. It's clear as a bell in LoL; bright whites and oranges against a dark teal background. In DoTA 2 it's dark gray against a dark green background. This is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Sure, you can see both, unless you're blind. But that "here's very clearly what's going on" element is missing from DoTA 2. They sacrificed clarity for a different art style that's darker and muddier. End of story. WC3's DoTA was more graphically clear than the Source Engine DoTA 2.

You didn't even read what I said. People who have never played a MOBA and don't game at all understand what's going on in LoL. I've gamed my entire life and played several thousand hours of LoL, a very similar game, and can't figure out what the fuck's going on in DoTA without looking shit up.

Do you not understand the difference there? I could learn any amount of confusingness if I wanted to, but if you have two similar games, and one is easier to jump into and still as complex at a high level, it's probably designed better.

I played DotA for years before LoL existed, and when I first played LoL I couldn't "figure out what the fuck's going on" just the same as your experience with Dota 2. This isn't a one-way-street by any stretch of the imagination.

Dota 2 is a spectacularly clear game to those that play it, and I've seen plenty of people come into the game with no previous genre experience and understand what most of the abilities do within a week or two. Myself, I've played about 50-60 games of LoL and I could only fully explain what a handful (maybe 30-40) of heroes abilities do.

That's not always the case though, I think it varies more on a character to character basis than anything else. I used to play a lot of League cause I really wanted to like it as I had so many friends that play it. Now I almost never play except to just play with some friends.

I've seen characters like Khazix(however its spelled) twice in a game, I still don't really understand what he does. Conversely I'd never expect anyone to know what Invoker does after a game or two either without it being explained.

I find DotA 2, LoL, and DotA 1 to be fairly similar in terms of clarity, but all games still have some shit you won't understand without having it explained.

You've got to be trolling? Its all subjective, just because you find it easier to understand whats going on doesn't mean that every person who hasn't played a "MOBA" before will have the same experience.

I've gamed my entire life and played several thousand hours of LoL, a very similar game...

There's your problem right there. They are not "very similar games." Last hitting creeps is pretty much the only thing that crosses over from one to the other.

The heroes are different and more varied, the roles are different, the lanes are different, the mechanics are different, stats are different, items are different. The similarities between the two are extremely superficial.

You're splitting hairs. Both are three-quarter perspective (locked) camera, showing a fixed amount of the map, with a map that is nearly identical in layout, with an identical purpose in the game (take the enemy nexus via pushing up lanes to take towers), both spawn minions up lanes ... look the entire games are identical except for champion mechanics. And graphics. It's like saying Quake 3 and UT are completely different. No, they aren't, they're arena FPS games with different guns, basically.

The only differences are in whether or not you can deny? AP scaling? These are niggling mechanical differences in nearly identical game formats. How many abilities are there on each champion's bar? How is the screen laid out? What is the goal of each game? Last hitting minions for gold? Please don't argue that they're wildly different games. They're different flavors of the same thing.

I've played a good bit of both, and I don't agree with your point, but..

Perhaps it is the fact that you have "played several thousand hours of LoL" and only a bit of DotA, "can't figure out what the fuck's going on" and assume it is THEIR fault, and not one of your own, or your projection of not liking the game.

Please, tell us, what is so confusing about DotA that someone can't understand it.

edit: To be clear, I don't think Valve is there yet. I don't think they have made it back to (in a relative sense) where DotA was originally, and I personally think they are the ones playing catch up - the reverse of what some have said in this thread so far. I like and play both because they are essentially completely different games now with the exception of the fact that Riot pulls 50% of their champs from DotA (perhaps an exaggeration at this point, but let's not get into overall champ selection argument here, LoL loses handily and I think most people who have played both more than a bit will agree).

You haven't read a fucking bit of what I said. You heard one sentence that ticked you off, and you came to snark at me. If I can't understand DoTA 2 visually on my first few plays, but someone with virtually no gaming experience at all can understand and play LoL, that's a huge design win for the LoL art and animation team.

Anyone can spend a ton of time to learn a game. But being able to understand what's going on immediately is a big draw and what has contributed to LoL's popularity that is orders of magnitude larger.

I have some real issues too. I think a lot of it is dota -> lol then back to dota 2. Something in there really changes your perceptions in a way that doesn't work for dota 2. I never know what the fuck is going on anymore.

I think its just a matter of getting used to it. From my experience, people that play mostly LoL find LoL easy to understand and Dota hard, while people that play mostly Dota find it precisely the opposite.

Weird you find it like that, since Dota 2 is designed to actually be more clear than other games, with models and skill effects made according to their importance (stronger stuff is more visible than weaker stuff, etc)

Lion is orange, with red+black bits around the orange. Basically he's a grey guy covered in lava stuff. For me he was one of the first I could easily identify - I'm grateful they changed Silencer's colour scheme so that he doesn't just look like Dragon Knight, though!

As someone who plays both (lately more Dota 2), I can say with basically zero hesitation that Dota 2's spell effects are FAR more distinguishable. 80% of the spells I see in LoL are bright flashes of color and some particles. There's quite a good number of skills in Dota 2 that are very easily distinguishable and stand out very well.

Morgana's Q is a ball that travels in a straight line. Her W is a puddle on the ground. Her E is a huge shield that is obviously a shield. Her ultimate is tethers between her and other champions.

Blitzcrank's Q pulls people to him. His W makes him run faster and start putting off steam. His E pops a person into the air with a punch. His Ultimate is a big PBAoE lightning explosion.

Lux's Q is a light ball that travels in a straight line. Her W is a spinning baton that shields anyone it passes over. Her E is a lobbed light bomb. Her ultimate is a distinct long range laser (nothing else looks even close to it).

Wukong's Q is a slap with his staff. His W leaves a decoy behind for a few seconds while he fades away and stealths. His E dashes towards a target and the targets next to it, dealing damage. His R spins around quickly and hits everyone near him with his staff, knocking them into the air when he first hits them.

Caitlyn shoots a large bullet in a line with Q. She sets a trap with W. She shoots a snaring net out with E and pushes herself in the opposite direction. Her ultimate puts a distinct and clear red target reticle on an enemy and a second or so later she fires a large bullet at them that homes towards them but hits whatever enemy champion it collides with first and doesn't pass through. You can see them blocking it.

All large AoE effects have distinct outer outlines. All projectiles are VERY different from each other.

When I watch DoTA I see ice colored spikes shooting out of the ground, but I can't tell if it's damaging or stunning or how large the radius is. One of the champions shoots a shockwave in a line and it is really unclear where the edge of the skill shot's collision detection is. At least one champion looks like all it does is auto attack. I've watched entire games and not seen any distinct other attack on at least one champion. Are their auto attacks just better? Do they have multiple attack resets that are very subtle in their animations? I don't know, but that turns me off from wanting to waste time trying to pry it open and figure it out.

You saying "80% of the spells I see in LoL are..." makes you sound like a moron. Really? 80% of the spells are flashes of color? I can name one off the top of my head, and that's Corki's Phosphorous bomb. Feel free to name another.

I feel like you're using specific examples that support your argument and ignoring others. Is darkseers wall not big and noticeable enough? Howabout invoker's chaos meteor? What about Death Prophets's ult? Enigma's? Faceless Void's? Luna's ult turns the map to night, I think that's distinguishable

It actually isn't. The colors in DoTA are too close to each other in saturation and there isn't enough contrast. The graphical design of spell effects is ambiguous, too. Compare AoE spells in DoTA 2 to, say, Ziggs' ult with a sharp outline of its radius, or Zyra's, or Nunu's, and so on. That coupled with coloring scheme choices make LoL miles ahead of DoTA 2 in graphical clarity. I can't tell what the fuck is going on in DoTA 2 after playing an analogue game, League of Legends, for over two thousand games and two years of playing, and my friends who aren't even gamers can immediately tell what's going on without any context when watching League? Seems pretty clear.

That's the problem, 2k games of LoL vs probably 1-2 videos and a handful of screenshots looked at without any interest whatsoever. If you actually cared to play atleast 50 games of Dota 2 you would see I'm right. In LoL all the spells are about the same in flashyness and combats tend to be a clusterfuck of fireworks for the untrained eye. Whereas in Dota 2, you can clearly tell appart the 2-3 most influential skills of the fight from the ~20 going on at the time.

You do realize the cognitive dissonance there, right? Not to discredit your point about the clarity of DOTA 2, having only played a tiny bit myself I have no opinion, but you said you need 50 games of DOTA and then compared it to an untrained eye for LoL.

Speaking as an untrained eye for both, I think LoL is easier to see what's happening in general, which makes it far more fun. If I have to grind through 30 hours of gameplay so I can understand the graphics, that's a serious flaw in a game.

Why not give some examples rather than 'I've barely touched DOTA2 so I can't understand it'.

One thing which imo is done better in dota2: items - rather than all being stats, you can see what a sheep stick does, a euls, a force staff etc rather than pure hidden stats.

I have played a lot of lol and dota and honestly when I was new to both I had no idea what the fuck was going on. Its an issue with the genre, you need to learn the heroes. Once you know what an ability does its easy to identify it in both games.

If you can't understand what's happening in Dota 2 but you can in LoL then I don't know what to tell you. From my experience with both games, Dota 2 has a number of more distinguished spell effects than what I've seen in LoL.

Sorry if I didn't express myself properly. What I tried to say is that, generally, it's easier to understand Dota 2 than LoL for someone who has no idea. If you show a total noob a teamfight of each game, then ask what were the most important skills used there, he will get more right answers for Dota 2 than LoL.

I was also trying to convey that the other guy is extremely biased because he only plays league, tried Dota probably a handful of times (or not even that) and didn't manage to understand the game because he's too used to LoL, so instead of putting an effort into playing it enough to give a fair opinion, he just blamed the game's design.

I played under PsHPhoenix and competed in some of the first seasons of CAL-M, HTGN-Pro, and my team competed in an MYM Defending Prime Quals tournament. I started the team called eFatum. Most of the pages have been removed, but if you are really interested, here are some links:

You seem to have the exact opposite opinion of most dota pros and really most anybody that's seen only a few games of dota 1. Dota 1 is one of the most graphically cluttered games ever. Yes, you get used to it, just like league, just like dota2. But just because you've played a game for years doesn't make the game some clarity standard...

In my experience team fights in league are blinding and in dota they are like I spies (easier to tunnel vision and miss an ally die while you kill somebody else) just because they last longer and you can keep track of where people are usually (lack of flash helps this imo). I think both games do a lot of good things in their graphical design, but saying dota 1 is clearer than dota 2 is just putting the rose tinted nostalgia glasses on a bit too much

The color scheme makes things blurry. Trees and paths are hard to distinguish in certain spots of the map. Even the heroes and abilities are hard to distinguish, despite the fact that I played high-level competitive DotA for over a year.

i'm calling bullshit on this. either way i would call bullshit on the claims about the graphics being unclear or blurry. in my experience it has been the exact opposite. i was confused when i first started because i was new of course but as i've been playing for a while and eventually learned/become comfortable with all the heroes/abilities/items the game is perfectly clear to me. it just doesn't make sense how something is unclear or blurry. show me screenshots or something as an example if you could because it just doesn't make any sense.

edit: the only unclear thing i've been able to think of is maybe tree paths. there are some semi hidden paths in the trees that you just kind of learn as you go and if you're very new you won't always notice them by looking at the trees.

I personally think the new graphics are leaps and bounds over the original WC3 version, Valve has this thing where they make things much easier for new players without editing the skillsets at all. They just make the skills a lot more distinguishable during teamfights and so make it easier to learn the game.

Your last line gave you away. How/why would you play high-level competitive Dota if you can't even remember what paths you can take to juke in the jungle. And what I think is that the particles and animations are far more distinguishable and tell a lot more about what is happening in Dota 2 than in LoL. You must be thinking the Warcraft 3 one, where you couldn't even tell if there was an Ogre Magi in the jungle or if it was just a neutral creep.

There are a lot of things that you could complain about, but "unclear" graphics is not one of them. None of this is true. How many games did you play before assuming it's Valve's fault that you can't automatically adapt to visual effects that aren't from the early 2000s? Because I sure as shit didn't know what was going on when I started playing League of Legends. All of the people claiming LoL is any clearer than Dota 2 clearly don't remember how it was when they started or have deteriorating eyesight because in both games you have to get used to how everything looks.

And I played about as much Dota as Dota 2 and Dota 2 is about fifty billion times clearer.

The more I come to this subreddit the more I wonder why most players don't just play Dota 2. I understand it has a slightly higher learning curve and people are reluctant to learn a new game but Valve has implemented all of these suggestions and are adding player suggestions every single week.

Difficulty. Learning 100+ 'champs' is not a minor venture, even for a seasoned LoL player its a significant time investment.

Differences. They are used to LoL and while AP not scaling is balanced in dota, they might not like that since they loved AP (S3 says fuck them though and deems bruisers > AP). They might not like the visuals or the denying or the night and day or the way jungle works or any number of minor issues that just put the game off for them. They might prefer a more stable and static lane meta or stable and solid picks.

Friends. If any number of people dont switch over because of the above, their friends are less inclined and their friends are less inclined and their friends are less inclined. Both games are better with a team you know and have great synergy with. Fun is significantly higher when with friends. If your friends dont come over, Dota2 is a lonely, frustrating experience by yourself. Not worth the mountain of stuff Valve have implemented.

Definitely so. DotA2 is much more comfortable having "these heroes are good at this point in the game and not so good elsewhere" type things - so ability-heavy heroes are often great in mid-game and kinda disappear in late-game so that you optimise your strategy for ending mid, or holding out, etc etc. Higher risk gambling with the character select, basically.

And yes, jungling I still don't fully understand, so I suppose that's also one of the bigger differences for me. Runes and the grind to 30 I feel is fantastic for new players starting out - DotA2 offers no such leg up at the moment - but it's terrible if I want to play outside my region. DotA2's lack of region locking, and level 1s being equal to level 55s in terms of what they have access to and the strength of their heroes, means I can jump into a game with American friends no problem. If I wanted to play with my US friends in LoL one of us would have to make a new account in a different region then choose to either spend months grinding to 30 or else be majorly gimped - or pay a fee to transfer over (and another to transfer back if I wanted to play with my EU friends again). That's an irritating complication.

Kinda wish that if you had a 30 on one region, you could freely make one (perhaps only one) on another region that started at 30.

As Dota2 nears its release date and hype builds. Riot will probably start implementing more and more (perhaps removing region locking or a method to get more champs or game modes giving access to all champs in a random sort of way) to placate LoL players

Definitely. It's super-healthy for competing games in the same genre to exist, especially by different companies with sizeable fanbases. It'd be a damned shame if it reached the point where only one MOBA of any significant size existed. Look at WoW - it stagnated.

U are on the spot. Takes to much time to learn a new game, and my friends hate the graphic so they won't swap. though the game itself feels awesome when playing (by playing i mean feeding horribly :P )

The League of Legends client overall is very poor in my opinion, there are many many missing necessary options.
Dont get me wrong Riot is a great company and LoL is a great game, but the in the client aspect i feel there are many missing things.

This is only what's coming into my head right now, but i always think of things that i wish the client had..
List of skins you own.
Normal Stats - an option to see stats about your normal games, even not as detailed as ranked, but at least i want to see how many times ive played with a champion..
Aram queue
Custom games Cosumization...

This doesnt seem that difficult to implement. Similar to how in ARAM you start with 3 level-up skill points and more than 1k gold, this would simply be a mode in which you start with 18 and 10k or whatever.
ruit plz

you should be level 18 with unlimited gold so you can buy and sell as many items at as many stages of the game as you want without having to farm any creep, 10k is like 3 items, but yeah it would be awesome

The mechanics to do this in LoL existed all the way back in the Beta. As others have said, there were potions you could get from the shop that would make you level 18, give you gold, refresh your cooldowns etc.

Riot doesn't care about features like this because it doesn't make them any money.

This would open the door to thousands of other custom game modes, and make League feel really fresh with your own tweaked settings. Just imagine all kinds of cool shit like instant 18, infinite gold, double or half damage, handicaps, etc...

This should be so easy to implement too, from a coding perspective it is extremely easy and pretty secure to simply give players/leaders of a custom game some control over the server via text commands.

DOTA 2 has implements "cheats" this way and it is fairly intuitive and does not require any creation of an UI. Commands could be like /give me 5000g or /lvl playername 17

the things that are being asked for like in this thread are extremely simple to implement, people just want to drum it up like it's some huge deal to defend riot or whatever when in reality someone could make a sandbox mode in something like an hour, and even then that's a pretty liberal estimate

But it is when you're as funded as riot is, it would be a lot more difficult if you have as many people to go around as riot. You could dedicate at team to do it and have it done in a week or two. lol Look how long replays are taking, they just use difficulty as an excuse any other organization would have this done with quite quickly, for some reason when it comes to features on expanding the client to player interactivity riot lags. I guess because they 'can', they have a large enough user base to not have to worry if it will have any barring on their pocket books.

Replays are different from just adding a few commands. The commands would/should be relatively easy to implement - it just builds on infrastructure that is already there. You just have to set the player money variable of the player higher. For replays, there are scaling issues, and the matter of how to save all that data.

Remember game genie, at this point it would take just as much work as game genie. All game genie did was change one or two variables to give you infinite lives, this truly is the equivalent to that. They just change one or two numbers, or probably delete one in the case of no cooldowns to create this to be a possibility...

sure we need this, but there is a technical problem. if the devs put in code that can allow people to modify their stats, there will definitely be some hacker who will find a way to exploit this in to regular gameplay. An easy way to prevent an abundance of hackers is to give them nothing to work with the in the first place. just my 2 cents, and as far as i can tell from other mmos and games, it holds fairly true.

I remember a while back Riot said that adding Sandbox was a lot harder then adding a few things to custom games as it would allow for that commands to be useable by the user. So to add anything like that they would have to make sure it wasn't hackable so it wouldn't start effecting real games. So it was just seen as something to work out later when they had time. Seeing as we still don't have replays I'm guessing its still far away...

Also to every one going "Well Dota 2 has sandbox!" Dota 2 is backed by Steam that's at least looking at whats running on your PC so it makes hacking more complex.

League of legends has come a long way in the past few years, it's slowly but surely progressing, a while back the quality was just mediocre and not many people played, I think Riot are just grasping their success with both hands and are now ready to keep on improving and delivering what's expected by their players, riot actually do listen well to their community if the topic is worth looking into and if they think it will benefit the game on a whole.

The main reason it's improved so much lately is because of dota 2. They can no longer be complacent when dota is is almost here with way more features than league. Dota 2 has ward skins and they aren't even scam rentals

I feel like riot wants you to discover builds in game and treat it almost like an adventure and add some difficulty instead of making it become sandbox and find the mathematically best builds to every champion so everyone uses it. Of course I guess it depends on each game, but still i feel it would make it too easy in a sense. Downvote me if you want, I value my opinion more than virtual arrows.

I once made a suggestion on the forums that there should be advanced options for suggestion games. Things like starting level, starting gold, or gold handicaps for specific players. Things they offer in other games.

Also for custom games such as Draft Racing, which is incredibly fun but yet very stressful because everybody cheats and you can't stop it. Sandbox mode would be OP so you can turn off gold/xp from minions and jungle camps etc.. Would open up a huge variety of custom games.

Yeah the concept of an advanced settings mode for Custom games has been thrown out there quite a few times in which you could change such settings as starting level, gold, gold generation, etc. It's a very neat concept that I wish it had.

To all those guys complaining, you have no idea how effective this idea is. Teams can practice in their late so much better if they have 6 item builds for both sides at end game without wasting so much time rather than having a game where the advantage is too lopsided and they barely ever get to practice those games where the game has dragged on for so long.

i remember bringing this up to my girlfriend a few months ago. not for me, but for the pro teams.

right now every tema has huge disadvantages in that they cant practice certain scenarios, as an example

the enemy team has the mid lane inhib down, baron is still up.

this is a scenario that teams could make real set plays around if only they could practice it over and over. there are many other scenarios that teams could really benefit from practicing. instead you have to start level 1 every game. which makes for some very interesting level 1's in tourneys. but the rest of the match pretty much runs like a cookie cutter.

so yeah i totally agree, not only should this be put into the game, but it should be implemented with an apology for riot for not having it in the game in the first place.

imagine what any professional sport would look like if every time they practiced it had to be in a scrim and couldnt stop at any time to actually run drills. it would be terrible. i truly think not having a sandbox mode in the game to be a major mistake.

The thing is that multiple things like sandbox mode or same champions in the same team is already possible, if you look at champion spotlights like Lee Sin's Aprils fool and Darius you can see that there are multiple Annie's on the same team

Yep ur right! And you should be able to change the default items in the shop! whats the name of the programm? i forgot... anyway! if you play a champion like annie the is still dorans ring instead of boots + pots!

Every post like this that I see are all wants for a sandbox. As heart felt and deep these wants are, that is all they are. I have never seen a person show the need for it. Need is not want, it is greater than want. Can someone tell me a reason that this feature is Needed for league and not just a reason that this would be a nice addition?