I'm a 35-year-old woman, and my boyfriend of a year is 43. Sadly, my friends and family don't like him. They think he's "not good enough" for me. Their argument: He doesn't have a full-time job with benefits (like me), plus he smokes pot to relax; therefore, he is lazy and will live off me and my retirement money. (Sorry, but enjoying retirement alone isn't my idea of a "secure future.") He has a part-time job he likes, makes enough to pay his bills in a (small) house he owns, and saves for things he wants. He is loving, has my back to an unreasonable degree, and says he's pretty sure he used up all his luck getting me. Unfortunately, all minds are made up; there's no explaining what a deeply good man he is. I feel awkward bringing him to gatherings or even mentioning him. The worst, though, is my nagging question: Could they be right?

--Torn

There are people who chase their dreams, and there are those -- like your boyfriend -- who just chillax on the couch, smoking a doob, waiting for their dreams to be in the neighborhood and maybe knock on the door.

He does sound like a good man -- which doesn't necessarily mean he's a good man to make a life with (which is why everybody's campaigning for you to ditch him). Maybe you're thinking, "Okay, so he's kind of a laid-back dude. It's 2016; can't the woman be the breadwinner?" Well, yes...but his lack of drive is likely to be a problem -- at least eventually.

Evolutionary developmental psychologist Bruce J. Ellis explains that there's this notion by some social scientists -- called the "structural powerlessness hypothesis" -- that women only go for powerful men because they themselves lack power. This, Ellis writes, is "directly contradicted" by research -- on feminist leaders, for example -- that finds that "high-power women (want) super-powerful men." They aren't all, "Well, I make plenty of money; I think I'll marry Hot Julio, the pool boy."

As for why this is, Ellis explains (as I often do) that ancestral women who went for mover-and-shaker men were more likely to have children who survived and passed on their genes. "Over evolutionary time," he writes, "evaluative mechanisms" were built into female psychology to push women "to detect and prefer males" with a "willingness and ability" to provide for them and their children.

A guy doesn't necessarily have to be rich for you to get your "man with mate value!" box checked. What seems to matter is potential -- that he is ambitious and has a reasonable shot at achieving what he's going after.

Now, maybe you went for your sweet underachiever as a reaction to jerks in your recent past -- or because it's supposedly "shallow" to want a partner to be, say, at least a certain height or making some kind of mark in business. But, using the height example, if you really aren't attracted to shorter guys, getting involved with one is basically benevolent cruelty. Sooner or later, your libido's going to be all, "Okay, so you got drunk and went home with the garden gnome. But enough is enough."

It is possible that you and Laid-Back Larry could live happily ever after. But ask yourself some questions: Where do you see yourself in five years? Could you count on him to put down the bong and go make money if you got sick? Will your friends and family come to accept him, or will you end up unhappily isolated? And finally, do you want kids? If so, consider that you can downscale your lifestyle but you can't downscale your kid from needing dental care or hand him makeshift forceps to take the toy truck out of his nose.

Sure, this guy would probably be the ideal stay-at-home dad. But consider -- in line with what Ellis explains -- that a number of studies find that women married to a Mr. Mom often end up resenting and losing respect for him, and those marriages are more likely to end in divorce.

You probably need some time to figure all of this out. Because people read the words in letters (instead of yelling over them), maybe write one to your family to ask them to be kind to him at family functions -- for your sake. And finally, try not to be so dramatic about your options. You're 35. The fertility train might be leaving the station pretty soon, but it's not like this guy is your last chance before "Marriage is between a woman and her cat!" and "P.S. Snowball and I are registered at Bloomingdale's and Petco."

Comments

The important thing is, are his truck and boat paid for.

Bob in texas
at October 26, 2016 6:11 AM

Should that be "is"?

Bob in texas
at October 26, 2016 6:13 AM

So I've had experience with this situation, both personally and observing it among friends: You have a situation where one spouse is the breadwinner and provider. The other spouse doesn't work, or only works as much as they want to. The couple doesn't have children. All this means that the non-working spouse has tons of leisure time and few responsibilities.

What starts happening eventually is, the non-working spouse starts to resent the time that the working spouse spends at work. The non-working spouse will start to call the working spouse at work a bunch of times per day, interrupting their work to ask trivial questions and fish for emotional validation. And then the working spouse starts getting the demands: "Why can't you come home early? You never spend any time with me!" That quickly escalates to pretend emergencies, and then "You're having an affair with your cube-mate! I knew it!" Sometimes the non-working spouse shows up at the working spouse's place of work and creates a scene. If the relationship isn't broken off at that point, it quickly spirals downhill from there.

Cousin Dave
at October 26, 2016 6:57 AM

Cousin Dave,
I'm being sexist and thinking that's a female doing that and not a man "doing stuff", smoking pot, and chilling IN HIS HOUSE that he paid for.

Nope. I see it going the other way when he's in THEIR HOUSE. Calls coming in from her asking "Did you ... like I asked?"

If this guy is smart he stays single in his house and she can come over any time she wants.

Bob in Texas
at October 26, 2016 8:08 AM

When I was 37 I met and then quickly married a 42 year old guy who worked temp jobs enough to stay alive and owned nothing more than an old Chevy and a suitcase full of thrift store clothing and porn. I now believe he was homeless at the time, but I didn’t realize it then. I had a good-paying job with benefits and was on my way up and I, too, didn’t want to end up alone. We had many interests in common and had a lot of fun together. He always said he was the luckiest man in the world to be with me. My family and friends were not impressed with him but didn’t say much about it. Eventually, he stopped working altogether but that didn’t keep him from bringing things home like a new stereo system with a 400 CD changer or a new king sized mattress set he bought with my credit card while I was at work. On Friday evenings after working all week I often prefer an evening at home with a bottle of wine, but he would become upset if I wasn’t willing to spring for concert tickets and drive us to an out-of-town show (he hadn’t paid child support in forever and, thus, had no driver license). Finally, I insisted that he get a job and he did, but was only employed for 6 weeks. We broke up after that. I got a passport and began traveling alone until I met my current husband, a man who has a good job earning the same salary as I do. We have shared goals in life and are far more compatible than I was with my previous guy. Please listen to your friends and family. If you have children with this man, you will be stuck with him forever and nothing is more irritating than supporting an adult who is not willing to work.

cp_deb
at October 26, 2016 9:27 AM

He only works part-time, but he owns a house? Is that because he used to work full time, or does he have family money, or is the house a tear-down in a crap neighborhood? He's obviously figured out how to support himself while doing minimal work, but is he a cheap-ass or a mooch or living on a trust fund? And how does EVERYONE know he's a stoner? That implies he's stoned all the time.

Whatever the reasons are for his lack of ambition, at this point in life it's certainly part of who he is. I wouldn't be happy with a man who was content with getting by with the minimum, and I wouldn't encourage someone I cared about to stick with a slacker.

Ahw
at October 26, 2016 9:55 AM

but I read this that LW's question was more about how to handle her disapproving loved ones re: BF, as opposed to whether they had a point (which I know is tacked on at the end). I think it's sort of unhealthy to choose your partner based on other peoples' opinions, even if they are close to you...considering their opinions is important, but it sounds like LW has, and she's just uncomfortable combining them and him. I would personally minimize that if they can't try harder to be accepting of him, once she's made the request, as Amy suggests.

If that isn't what you want, by all means move on, just realize that those alpha go getters come with their own set of issues.

If your current man doesnt have a messy background, bankruptcy, divorce, child support, brushes with the law, and is financially responsible and kind, your family may still be so stuck on status signaling, that they refuse to see that what they want might not be best for you.

And if your family is actually rude to him, or mean, they are not nice people. To me, this is at least some evidence that your boyfriend is a better class of person than than your family is.

In my experience sometimes money and a hard charging job puts an expensive veneer onto a real piece of shit.

The sister of a friend was married to a high powered Harvard educated heart surgeon with half a million income a year.

Between his drinking, and smacking her around, the marriage didn't last very long.

Isab
at October 26, 2016 5:46 PM

I say this as a guy kinda similar to the one described by the letter writer.

I had a woman try and trap me into marriage and a kid that I am pretty damn sure wasnt mine.

I live minimally but comfortably, I work enough to cover my bills and hobby expenses, and enough for a little extra now and again. I have no intention of getting married and having kids, those two facts scare off most women, and my distinct lack of upward mobility scares off those who think by desire for no kids and no stay at home wife were something they could work around.

But it does also limit, my dating pool. But I've been bitter sarcastic misanthrope since I was ten so I'm cool with it.

My point. Most guys like me and this stoner are generally bad news.

So, does he ask you for money? To pay his bills? To buy him gifts? Does he trade your gifts for cash or something he'd rather have?

A guy who FELL into this situation generally arent worth the time

A guy who chose that situation still has problems that are going to make relationships interesting to say the least, possibly impossible in the long run.

I have alot of wealthy clients---most of them are bored rich housewives looking to spend their husbands cash. I would say that if you as a woman think that "alpha" attitude is left in the office well...good luck to you. Oh boy are these guys rude a.f. to their wives in front of me, who the fuck knows what they're like behind closed doors. I guess that's the price you pay to be a kept woman in SoCal.

I don't understand the hate the LW's boyfriend is getting tbh. Depends what her goals are but dude sounds like he's got his shit together.

Also I have a friend who is a programmer, he makes as much as I do...and works part time. What's with peoples obsession that if you don't work 12 hours a day you're a piece of shit? For all I know this dude might be making part time what most of us make full time.

Ppen
at October 26, 2016 10:14 PM

Agreeing w/Ppen and others (Mother's cousin fit this guy's description from the 60's on. Everyone was sorry for his 'girlfriend' but she's been w/him for 40 years now so ...)

Like all things it depends on how needy he is and if he is. LW may also not be the sharpest knife in the block if at 35 she has not decided what she wants in a relationship. (What do these women dream about that leaves them at mid-30's so unable to say "I want _______ and you are/are not it.".)

From a guy's POV I bet his toys are better than mine and that he is more relaxed/laid back/cool with life than most mid-40's men. He's not a hitter or an addict incapable of long-term gratification (saves money to BUY the stuff he wants).

Hell, if I was 35 I'd marry him. I think this is a LW problem as far as what does she want out of life and the result of the world can GTH. Besides he's had his whole life getting used to not going to her family outings. He'll do fine.

Bob in Texas
at October 27, 2016 4:48 AM

"Eventually, he stopped working altogether but that didn’t keep him from bringing things home like a new stereo system with a 400 CD changer or a new king sized mattress set he bought with my credit card while I was at work."

Similar here. When I met my ex, she had a decent job in another city, which she gave up to live with me. She said I had to help her buy a car so she could get to work, so I did. Then she decided she didn't want to work. Oh, and she wanted a nicer car. Long story short: we divorced 26 years ago. I haven't seen or communicated wit her in any way since 1991. To this day, she still occasionally tries to open a credit card account in my name. I've got all kinds of identity protection and the credit agencies know about it so it's not a problem any more, but I still get a report now and then. It turned out that before I met her, she was living with her father and he paid all of her bills, so 100% of her income went to partying. So she never had the money she said she had -- she spent it all as fast as she made it.

Look, I don't have a problem with people who decide that their time is worth more to them than possessions are, and and they pursue a lifestyle that minimizes the amount of time they have to spend working. As long as I don't have to pay for it. But I'm here to tell you: there aren't many Thoreaus among that crowd. Most of them are people who are looking for short cuts to the easy life, and they don't have any qualms about deceiving other people to get what they want.

Cousin Dave
at October 27, 2016 7:50 AM

If your current man doesnt have a messy background, bankruptcy, divorce, child support, brushes with the law, and is financially responsible and kind, your family may still be so stuck on status signaling, that they refuse to see that what they want might not be best for you.

Co-signing what Isab said.

My husband owns a business, and it's solidly blue-collar work. He got a fancy degree and then did a 180 and decided to do work that many people think is "unglamorous." I've had people in my life make snide comments about his "life choices" and asked whether his messy work clothes bother me when he meets me for lunch while I'm in my nice office clothes. Not a single one of those people is in my life anymore. I banished them. If a family member EVER questioned our relationship or his value (even if their comments were wrapped in "concern" for me), my response would be, "Well bless your sweet little heart for your concern. We're doing just great! I hope you and your husband can say the same." Anyone from the south knows what that really means.

LW, you are in your 30s. Stand up for your man.

Obviously, if he's asking for money from you or mooching (as others have mentioned already), that's different. But if he's responsibly carrying on a simpler lifestyle and not requiring you to change yours, be an adult and don't question your happiness.

sofar
at October 27, 2016 10:09 AM

A question I haven't seen asked: what's her family and friends' track record in evaluating her previous boyfriends? (At 35, I assume this isn't her first.) Were there cases in the past where they gave her warnings which she ignored to her later regret? Or, on the other hand, were there men they all liked who turned out to be horrible?

Rex Little
at October 27, 2016 11:26 AM

Amy is absolutely correct. It really doesn't matter if he is actually an ok guy, or is one of the those like luljp. It also doesn't matter that there are a lot of hard charging, type A guys that are jerks. (I'm not sure why that has even come up here. Who says a guy has to be a hard charging type A guy to have a full time job? Obviously she has a full time job, is she by extension necessarily a jerk?)

Most women don't full themselves. I recall hearing of a survey of 100 married, female doctors. Every one of them married someone who made more money than them. Every single one. The ones that fool themselves are the ones who marry the stoner without a job, or the poor artist, and then 7 years later are writing into Amy or Carolyn Hax about their lazy husband who just won't get a job. They've lost respect for the guy, because either he must be incompetent at everything, or because what kind of guy can spend his life that way?

Yeah, I'm sure there are women who really can live with the guy who doesn't want more than a roof over his head and pot to relax with. Just like there are guys who really prefer women without makeup. But, most people who think they are those people are fooling themselves, or being fooled.

SlowMindThinking
at October 27, 2016 3:52 PM

Yeah, I'm sure there are women who really can live with the guy who doesn't want more than a roof over his head and pot to relax with. Just like there are guys who really prefer women without makeup. But, most people who think they are those people are fooling themselves, or being fooled.

SlowMindThinking at October 27, 2016 3:52 PM

I know a lot of people who are ill suited for the consumerist rat race.

I am kind of struggling to figure out, at what point in American history did being a suit and tie mid level drone with employer provided *health insurance* become so aspirational?

It must be a coastal thing. PPen made some salient points.
I know a lot of divorced or never married men. A lot of them have unconventional jobs where they dont go into an office every day. Most of them make a pile of money, or if they don't, they live within their means.

Men are not arm candy, or sex robots. When you have as much or more consideration for your partners wants and needs, aa you do for your own, then you have a loving relationship.

Im not particularly religious, but if I have a prayer, it is that my 32 year old daughter is smart enough to marry her 40 year old boyfriend, who used to be a prison guard, but is now an independant construction contractor. He seems to be the only one so far who has managed to keep her moving is a positive direction with her life.

My husband and I both have advanced degrees, but we want our daughter with someone honest, trustowrthy and kind. Hang the social status, it is worthess as a Weimar bank note.

If, at thirty five you are an insecure narcissistic jerk looking for a shiny new pull toy to drag home and display to the family then you aren't ready for a long term committment anyway.

Isab
at October 27, 2016 8:47 PM

I recall hearing of a survey of 100 married, female doctors. Every one of them married someone who made more money than them.

I think there are probably other factors creating this situation, besides "Female doctors want to marry men who earn as much as they do."

As a society, we self-segregate. A lot of people know they're going to be a doctor starting from college. So they're hanging around people who are on similar paths. Heck, just being in a competitive program entails limiting your social circle to those who are high achievers. If you're putting in hours studying instead of partying and chilling, you're probably surrounding yourself with those doing the same. And when your high-achieving friends set you up on a blind date, it's probably going to be someone in their high-achieving circle. Heck, in most cities, there are the blue-collar bars and the fancy happy hour bars, so like-meeting-like continues well into your professional life, too. Various professional organizations also co-host events together, so you have the "Indian financial professionals" meeting with the local "Doctors who wanna have fun" group. Neither is exactly reaching out to the local musicians' association for a joint happy hour.

There's also something to be said for wanting someone who won't guilt-trip you for working long hours.

But if you happen to meet someone on a different track who respects your drive and doesn't try to limit you and get all mopey about your long hours, that can work, too. In fact, it can be great.

sofar
at October 28, 2016 7:52 AM

If you questioning it then it ain't meant to be. He chilling and handling his biz, and you worried about what some others think, Fuck dat, if I was old boy ide be out, life to short for dat shit.
Everybody dont wanna be rich or balling out of control some of us wanna just get our bread and chill - feel me

wisewords
at October 28, 2016 10:04 AM

sofar, if your explanation were true, then it would be random as to which of the partners would make more. Probability being what it is, some calculable percentage would have married someone making less than them. My own DO married a physics or math professor, which makes him a high achiever, if not necessarily driven. That just shows that even 100 people is not a big enough sample to catch those with oddball professions that garner a lot of respect, but not much money.

Isab, neither the LW nor myself are saying anything about high achieving. Since when does having a full time job mean high achieving? (And, I live in the mountain states, so I'm not either coast.) In fact, full time does not necessarily mean professional, or even having a consistent 40 hour a week job. Everyone I know considers prison guards and contractors full time. My in-laws work in a textile plant; they're full time. According to the LW, this guy is capable enough to find a job, but choosing not to work full time.

I agree with wisewords, if she's questioning, eventually she will not be happy with him. Maybe she'll want kids, and suddenly his not working full time becomes an issue. (Of course, he might choose to work full time then. I can't think of an example, for anyone over 25, but it could be.) Maybe after a few years of her family and friends thinking he's lazy, she'll think that. All I know is that it will probably happen. As Amy says, it is human nature.

SlowMindThinking
at October 28, 2016 3:26 PM

I went on a coffee date recently with a man who admitted to,"trying to get fired for 11 years, as a nurse".
Thankfully I didn't allow him to buy me food or drink..I listened to him for about 15 minutes and excused myself.
I worked damn hard to become a director of maintenance for about 900 different assets in the area. I'm a driven individual..we would have no ability to relate.
I left him after 15 min to go treat myself to breakfast and he sent me a pic of his French pee pee. I blocked him and moved on. Uggghh.

Yolobubbles
at October 28, 2016 7:29 PM

The LW's family is correct. Their judgment is the only thing that matters. She should follow their hearts and do as she's told.

Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers
at October 29, 2016 10:33 AM

Point out his contributions to your friends and wax on about how they fit into your lifestyle... i mean if you are the one with a full time job I assume he will pcik up slack on the home front and cook, do laundry, clean, whatever. My executive girlfriends say once you reach a certain level your husband usually stops working anyhow because at that point the money he brings in isn't worth the stress of not having a parent around. So tell your friends the ways he supports you and your career, and the ways you think he is an asset

Also discuss the pot thing with him and what he would do if you had kids. Let your froends know why it isn't a problem

Bottom line is if you see him as an asset they will too

Nicolek
at October 29, 2016 1:31 PM

Why why why do youse guys think LW should try to convince her family this guy is good for her.

Just by writing Amy she has shown that she has not decided he is good for her long-term. (wisewords and others nailed it.)

LW is an immature mouse taking advantage of a low cost FWB situation. She has no idea of what her future should be or who she wants to share it with.

I just hope her "boyfriend" has not invested any emotion into their "relationship". Hell, he doesn't know who she is because she has not decided yet.

Bob in Texas
at October 30, 2016 6:24 AM

I feel for this girl (I'm 57) because I'm just out of a similar situation. But mine turned out to be a whiny moocher. Friends and family loved and hated him, half and half, they didn't know about the mooching.

My real point, is that if most of your planets lie on the upper half of your astrological chart, you won't care much what others think about you and what you do. But if the planets predominate in the lower half, you will. True dat!

SLC
at October 31, 2016 7:13 PM

Because her question was "How do I convince my loved ones" not "Should I DTMFA"

NicoleK
at November 1, 2016 11:44 AM

"The worst, though, is my nagging question: Could they be right?"

This says it all. His actual actions do not mean as much to her as the opinions of others.

Hope he is not invested in this mouse because the question is not whether he will cover her back if SHTF, but will she cover his?

Bob in Texas
at November 2, 2016 6:12 AM

"I am kind of struggling to figure out, at what point in American history did being a suit and tie mid level drone with employer provided *health insurance* become so aspirational?"

I hate to say it Isab but this predates the US. It appears to be baked into the human condition. You can find that viewpoint all the way back to the birth of cheap paper.

Otherwise a lot of good comments. Without more information I can't offer useful advice. After all, it is 2PM and I am avoiding doing any actual work and I only put in 1000 billable hrs a year. But that pays my bills and I am happy. I also have friends with full time jobs who can't keep a roof over their heads. But neither of those conditions are normal. At least I hope they aren't.

Ben
at November 2, 2016 12:15 PM

"I am kind of struggling to figure out, at what point in American history did being a suit and tie mid level drone with employer provided *health insurance* become so aspirational?"

Ben what I am trying to say is that the LW is being pretentious for no discernable reason.

I'm old enough to remember when being a school teacher was a low pay blue collar job, and the fact that you wore nice clothes and had employer provided health insurance didn't make you socially or economically superior to your counter parts, the garbage collector, or the waitress.

Isab
at November 4, 2016 1:25 AM

That is a cultural difference not a time difference Isab. There are plenty of people who still see things that way. And there were plenty of people back then who were pretentious douches. Though the status symbols the pretentious douches chase after are constantly changing.