Pete330v2 wrote:It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

What an odd point.

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

I'd have thought that was a blindingly obvious and obviously meaningful point to make.

You were just complaining that I was off topic yet you now talk of the same thing.

Xenophobia and/or racism is in evidence when you judge one group of people by much, much more stringent standards than any other group of people. Double standards are the heart of prejudice. Xenophobes and racists are not worth your time. Do not engage with Phil.

Just for clarity here, and to avoid all doubt, are you accusing me of either xenophobia or racism?

Yes.

Last edited by Notch on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 12:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

Pete330v2 wrote:It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

What an odd point.

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

I'd have thought that was a blindingly obvious and obviously meaningful point to make.

You were just complaining that I was off topic yet you now talk of the same thing.

Xenophobia and/or racism is in evidence when you judge one group of people by much, much more stringent standards than any other group of people. Double standards are the heart of prejudice. Xenophobes and racists are not worth your time. Do not engage with Phil.

Just for clarity here, and to avoid all doubt, are you accusing me of either xenophobia or racism?

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

It may have an impact but who cares? What possible point is being made here? Professional League. - one side or sides have more spending power than others - so what? Dog eat dog. Toulon v Zebre. Your very idea of Perfect Professional ideals at work.

It may have an impact but who cares? What possible point is being made here? Professional League. - one side or sides have more spending power than others - so what? Dog eat dog. Toulon v Zebre. Your very idea of Perfect Professional ideals at work.

This is a discussion forum, so ideally we advance our arguments in a civilised way. You may get in touch with the Site Admins to ensure this process ins respected. I would be remiss if I did not share my reasoning below.

1) Xenohobia is dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries. For instance, if one persistently talks down and insults a group from another country they might be perceived as xenophobic.

2) Racism is the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. For instance, if one believes that all the organisations responsible for running a specific part of any given society are more likely to be corrupt than their direct equivalents in another society they might be perceived as racist.

3) A secondary definition of racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. If one insists on repeatedly coming to places where the ingroup of the society he is xenophobic towards congregate to share his opinions in a deliberately aggressive or antagonistic manner he may fit this bill.

4) Racism hinges on the definition of a race as distinct from another race. Of course, we are all the one race; the human race. And hence the idea of race is subjective and artificial. However, it is my belief that there has been significant racial segregation between the Irish and British over the past few hundred years that for the purposes of this discussion we can treat the Irish as a 'race' in their own right as opposed to an ethnicity. See the below for a good overview of how racist British attitudes towards the Irish have been expressed in the past;

You are welcome to keep posting here, and you are welcome to continue to share your opinions. However, it is within the rights of other posters to share their opinions on your opinions and I include myself in that.

It may have an impact but who cares? What possible point is being made here? Professional League. - one side or sides have more spending power than others - so what? Dog eat dog. Toulon v Zebre. Your very idea of Perfect Professional ideals at work.

Who cares? The folk following the game in Wales, Champ.

Thanks.

No they don't. You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say. The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world. Right?

Notch wrote:You are welcome to keep posting here, and you are welcome to continue to share your opinions. However, it is within the rights of other posters to share their opinions on your opinions and I include myself in that.

Well, if we can share opinions on other's opinions then I'd have a field day with you.

No they don't. You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say. The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world. Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

Notch wrote:You are welcome to keep posting here, and you are welcome to continue to share your opinions. However, it is within the rights of other posters to share their opinions on your opinions and I include myself in that.

Well, if we can share opinions on other's opinions then I'd have a field day with you.

Go ahead. Of course, I can't guarantee anyone will be interested in reading anything you have to say. That part of the members role is strictly voluntary.

No they don't. You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say. The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world. Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

So you're confirming for me? - You have popped over to the other side of the fence for a while?

For a while, you'll no longer be the harsh, objective, non-sentimentalist, non-empathetic Rugby Professionalism idealist. For a while it's back to lamenting the struggles of Welsh rugby when set against the 'unfair' megabucks of the IRFU?

No they don't. You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say. The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world. Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

No they don't. You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say. The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world. Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

Why do you invest so much time on a topic that you're all for? So you're all for the IRFU spend, you're not all for the Regions spend .... why not invest all that energy into why the Regions are failing?

Why do you invest so much time on a topic that you're all for? So you're all for the IRFU spend, you're not all for the Regions spend .... why not invest all that energy into why the Regions are failing?

Simply because the two issues are related.

PRW do less well because their salary bill is lower. In order to get people to understand this, it's necessary to prove that the Irish spend more.

So you're confirming for me? - You have popped over to the other side of the fence for a while?

For a while, you'll no longer be the harsh, objective, non-sentimentalist, non-empathetic Rugby Professionalism idealist. For a while it's back to lamenting the struggles of Welsh rugby when set against the 'unfair' megabucks of the IRFU?

Often, I have no idea what the hell you are on about. And, guess what, this is just another one of those occasions.

So you're confirming for me? - You have popped over to the other side of the fence for a while?

For a while, you'll no longer be the harsh, objective, non-sentimentalist, non-empathetic Rugby Professionalism idealist. For a while it's back to lamenting the struggles of Welsh rugby when set against the 'unfair' megabucks of the IRFU?

Often, I have no idea what the hell you are on about. And, guess what, this is just another one of those occasions.

You do. Of course you do.

You just don't feel comfortable knowing that I have a long memory for two completely divergent opinions coming from one 606 guy.

So you do the 'HOW ODD' trick. It doesn't work - on any of us, Phil. You've used that 'HOW ODD' trick too often. Nobody buys it.

You just don't feel comfortable knowing that I have a long memory for two completely divergent opinions coming from one 606 guy.

So you do the 'HOW ODD' trick. It doesn't work - on any of us, Phil. You've used that 'HOW ODD' trick too often. Nobody buys it.

You may have a long memory but you seem to have a short understanding and a shorter still ability to write coherently.

Good to see you've appointed yourself a spokesperson, however. You cling to that safety in numbers.

From my angle, it's a pleasure to see the narrative move from 'we don't spend more than others' to 'who cares if we spend more than others' to 'let's try to take a pop at the bloke who has shown us that we spend more than others'. A real pleasure.

So on to now dealing on another thread with 'How Welsh Regions rise their Salary Bill'.

And - if any poster on such a thread must again have the IRFU position clarified - just send them here to re-read this thread?

Yes?

On to a Welsh Funding Thread?

Superb, so - you, as the Self Appointed Spokesperson for All Followers of Irish Rugby on 606 - are happy to accept that the Irish Provincial Wage Bill is significantly higher than the spend by PRW teams.

You may have a long memory but you seem to have a short understanding and a shorter still ability to write coherently.

Good to see you've appointed yourself a spokesperson, however. You cling to that safety in numbers.

From my angle, it's a pleasure to see the narrative move from 'we don't spend more than others' to 'who cares if we spend more than others' to 'let's try to take a pop at the bloke who has shown us that we spend more than others'. A real pleasure.

More evasion? tut tut. How odd!

IRFU spends more than the Welsh on the Regions. Fact. It's never been any other way from me. I've always said you're right. But you don't like debating with people that agree with your points as then you're forced to move on to the next stage.

So, the next stage - when everyone admits that the IRFU spends more than the Regions:

Why should a Professional League care? You don't when you speak of the AP or Top14. So why should we care with Pro12?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Even if we say the Irish, French and English spend more, so what? They have more successful set ups, waiting for handouts ain't going to help the Welsh.

So what? It's the starting point to noting why Welsh performances have been as they have since 2010.

It seems that we're finally getting some movement on this, however, as the narrative is nicely moving on to the 'so what?' stage. Which, of course, is funny.

No I'd still contest the spend you talk of as you can't even tell me what Saracens spent of wages last year or the year before, let alone the whole English league. I'm saying lets just go along with it to move the discussion along as you can't back it up. Yes, the Welsh suck I'll acknowledge that. But like fly says that's for the Welsh Wages Charity thread.

So on to now dealing on another thread with 'How Welsh Regions rise their Salary Bill'.

And - if any poster on such a thread must again have the IRFU position clarified - just send them here to re-read this thread?

Yes?

On to a Welsh Funding Thread?

Superb, so - you, as the Self Appointed Spokesperson for All Followers of Irish Rugby on 606 - are happy to accept that the Irish Provincial Wage Bill is significantly higher than the spend by PRW teams.

Yes?

Find the many times when I've already agreed with that point. You're good at Research aren't you?

The we'll move onto the next Stage. The "What are we going to do with Wales?" Stage.

SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends more than the Welsh on the Regions. Fact. It's never been any other way from me. I've always said you're right. But you don't like debating with people that agree with your points as then you're forced to move on to the next stage.

So, the next stage - when everyone admits that the IRFU spends more than the Regions:

Why should a Professional League care? You don't when you speak of the AP or Top14. So why should we care with Pro12?

Great, so it's agreed that the Irish provinces have higher wage bills than their Welsh opponents. Good news. We got there.

Why should a Professional League care? It shouldn't.

But why ask that completely unrelated question? It seems as though you've assumed something that isn't there. My point has never been about 'caring', but clarity.

And, as you've appointed yourself the Spokesperson for All, it seems that clarity has been achieved.

So, from the position of some just a few months ago, real progress has been made.

SecretFly wrote:IRFU spends more than the Welsh on the Regions. Fact. It's never been any other way from me. I've always said you're right. But you don't like debating with people that agree with your points as then you're forced to move on to the next stage.

So, the next stage - when everyone admits that the IRFU spends more than the Regions:

Why should a Professional League care? You don't when you speak of the AP or Top14. So why should we care with Pro12?

Great, so it's agreed that the Irish provinces have higher wage bills than their Welsh opponents. Good news. We got there.

Why should a Professional League care? It shouldn't.

But why ask that completely unrelated question? It seems as though you've assumed something that isn't there. My point has never been about 'caring', but clarity.

And, as you've appointed yourself the Spokesperson for All, it seems that clarity has been achieved.

So, from the position of some just a few months ago, real progress has been made.

Thank you.

No need for Thanks, Phil. So glad you've finally been able to decipher my odd posts and finally actually see what has been written many many times before.

So without further ado - as we're all Thanking each other for finally getting a few points, let's move on to the next Stage: Getting Welsh Regions up to Funding Speed to Compete.

Why do you invest so much time on a topic that you're all for? So you're all for the IRFU spend, you're not all for the Regions spend .... why not invest all that energy into why the Regions are failing?

Simply because the two issues are related.

PRW do less well because their salary bill is lower. In order to get people to understand this, it's necessary to prove that the Irish spend more.

See? Simple really.

Have any of the Irish posters ever denied the Provinces get more funding?

As Fly has pointed out, what next? We're agreed that the Provinces have more funding than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

My guess is that instead of discussing ways for the Regions to generate more funds you may look across the bridge for your answer? If my guess is correct, you will have the same problem of the Regions not keeping up with the competition.