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Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

>
"The only way to have a sustainable system of beekeeping is to stop treating.

Michael, I've stripped the nuance from your quote, because the opening sentence is what new beekeepers invariably hear. (including some of the most vociferous types on this thread).

I maintain asking backyard beekeepers to sustain the massive, predictable losses that their implementation of this idea invariably results in is wasteful and counterproductive.

I maintain that rationalized and directed selection has been the system with which early modern agriculture has adopted to novel parasites. Directed selection requires 1) indentification of desirable traits, 2) amplification of these traits, 3) and backcrosses to mix with other selected traits.

For bees (like most other out-crossing species), isolation and saturation are essential to creating local races.

There is enormous inertia in species, they revert to type in unbounded outcrossing populations. Moving the whole genome en bloc and en mass is enormously difficult and wasteful. We can also anticipate (viz. AHB) that local racial adaptation fixes very undesirable traits.

If small beekeepers want to participate in genetic selection, they should confederate as part of a larger program. Not all apiaries are situated to benefit from wildings-type out-crossing. The prescription to "not treat to get to not treating" is inappropriate for these apiaries.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

So how many hives you have been watching collapsing, Michael? Say, in the last decade.

Mike will correct me if I am wrong but I believe he states that he lost all of his bees when he was treating and (possibly) once since which he attributes to being away from the country for most of a year. Pretty sure he has said that he repopulated with packages. I asked once if they were from a tf producer and never got a reply.

"People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

The reason it is important, if you are into this stuff, to know that bees do not only uncap large mite families, is that if that's all our own VSH ones did, it probably wouldn't work as there would already be a large mite family, and the uncapping would be too late to prevent that.

Not if the infant mites are too young to survive outside the cell.

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

My understanding, taken from the seminar I went to run by the scientists and breeders involved in the program, is that this is how it works for the VSH population being developed here. There are also other VSH mechanisms in other places and perhaps you are more familiar with those.

There seems to be a consensus that there are a range of mechanisms, often requiring several genes, and that just a few patrilines with those genes is often sufficient. Varroa resistance comes from a collection of behaviours, perhaps unique to each colony. Nobody knows the whole story.

I don't bother keeping up to speed with all this, for the reason John Kefuss gives: you don't need to know. Let the bees/natural selection figure out how to handle mites. With that said I may work up a freeze-brood testing set next year and give it a go. It might speed things along. But while I'm interested I'm not going to get into a close discussion of the mechanisms. I have better calls on my time. The bees can breed the mites they want; I'll breed the bees I want.

Mike (UK)

The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

Re: Ask Questions Here!

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

Opening capped cells is a behaviour that hardly is fixed in genes but is learned from other bees. To learn this you need smart bees. To get smart bees you need good nutrition and warmth when brooding. See Professor Tautz on temperatures during brooding and their effects on the bees intelligence.

Can you supply a link to a scientific source that verifies this?

I seem to recall bees teaching each other how to deal with mites was an article of faith at Biobees, but was never substantiated. I recall the logic: Bees teach each other where food can be found, therefore: Bees must be able to learn:, therefore: bees can teach each other to to manage mites. This process was kicked of by sugar dusting, whereupon bees would learn how to groom mites from each other as they cleaned sugar from each other, and teach each other, thus reducing the need for sugar dusting. Fab theory.

Lets note: contrary to your assertion, there is plenty of scientific evidence showing that uncapping is governed by genes.

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

And you need bees that show other bees how to do it. That is why splitting works well, bees with the behaviour or knowledge get transfered to a new hive.

Splitting works by making brood breaks. Systematic brood breaks are an effective treatment. Effective treatments prevent adaptation. And round you go again.

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

In Germany there is a movement that work with removing all the brood combs at the end of the season. The brood goes into a stack/tower of hive bodies (plus one queen, confined to a small area) in a separate apiary. All the brood emerges within weeks and get treated.
Bees and queens of the original hives go onto fresh comb in a seperate apiary. The mite numbers are low. Bees that emerged in the tower are added to those colonies after the treatment. The good thing about this is, you break the reprodution cycle of the mites plus the bees in the wintering hives had no treatments, so are unstressed by any substances.

What has that to do with non-treatment beekeeping?

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

To control mite population you need to control the birth rates. That is tricky, but can be done either mechanically - by removing all the brood from the hives - or behaviourly. You need smart bees for this. Hint: there are no smart bees in hives that are not thriving.

That's why you cull/requeen them/source resistant genetics in the first place/defend those genetics by apiary positioning and dedicated drone production hives.

I can't help noticing Bernhard that you haven't responded to my questions asking about the original genetics of your non-treatment efforts, or about drone control.

For anyone wondering about Bernhards real intentions here, it might be worth noting he's been joining in the general denunciation effort by prompting Frazzlefrozzle and Oldtimer to belittle me on other threads. A veneer of reason here, playground bullying tactics out of sight.

Mike (UK)

Last edited by mike bispham; 08-15-2013 at 02:12 AM.

The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

Re: Ask Questions Here!

Actually Mike I dont think I've belittled you at all, that really is the pot calling the kettle black

I guess I just can't stand the way you talk down to people.
You have a very condescending and arrogant way of posting. Especially considering you have been beekeeping with mites for what... 2 years at most?

Re: Ask Questions Here!

You have a very condescending and arrogant way of posting. Especially considering you have been beekeeping with mites for what... 2 years at most?

25 years was I think the recent guestimate. On and off, yes. But more or less continuous study, thousands - yes thousands - of hours of it, getting a tight grip on my topic.

There's a big cultural gap between popular and academic modes of discussion.

And people who gang up to belittle a person rather than fight on grounds of reason have been a pet hate of mine for a long long time. I respond to bullies by doing my best to make them look silly.

Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle

Sorry to make it personal but geez you wind me up

Try to focus on the content, not its form. Its a big world and not everybody works the same way as you. However: attacking the arguments effectively gains you respect everywhere; attacking the man is universally contemptable. Playground bullying tactics from adults are beneath contempt. Everywhere.

What most of us are here for is earnest and honest dialogue leading to the acquisition of genuine knowledge. We can spot less than e & h dialogue a mile off, and we despise it because it gets in the way of our aims and goals. It couldn't be more anti-social. You can have good conversation, constructive dialogue and fun at the same time. But you have to play cricket, as we Brits say.

Mike (UK)

Last edited by mike bispham; 08-15-2013 at 02:48 AM.

The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

Re: Ask Questions Here!

Wait - I answer that right here. I am sick of people preaching treatment-free beekeeping by the HITS method either without beekeeping background (sorry but pulling a couple of hives through winter is no beekeeping) or without highlighting the losses, the suffering and the nonsense that comes with going treatment free full stop.

I rather like a systematic and practical approach and I do not like theoretical and philosopical talk.

I joined the discussion to stop people like you. Stop them to prevent the people running into losses and more losses. You think it is all natural, but in fact it is just poor beekeeping. I have been through that, believe me, and I cannot recommend anyone to do what I have done. Above all because it is completely unnecessary. With the Soft Bond Method you can get the very same results.

If you want to kill 43 of 50 hives each winter, that is your thing. But do not invite beginners and others to do the same. Come back when you have been successfully established a local solution for you.

So many hives I killed and others did that, too. It's enough! I feel ashamed about what I have done. Ashamed enough to face and counter your wordy posts. Written without practical experience.

Again I recommend the Soft Bond Test. It achieves the same but without all the killing. It doesn't waste bee lifes. Which is completely unnecessary and completely unnatural.

It's my history that makes me write here. You as a person or your writings do not matter to me. That is not meant as an insult, I just want to clarify, that my intention is clear: prevent others from doing stupid things.

I am all for treatment free. But be smart, do it smart. Don't let the bees suffer from your bad beekeeping.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

You posted here that you quit bees when varroa arrived on your shores and had taken it up again a couple of years ago.

My question was how long have you been keeping bees with varroa not how long have you been keeping bees.

Without going back through my posts to you I don't thinkI've been "playing the man" I think I've asked questions and queried your replys but I've never talked down to you the way you talk down to everyone who has a different point of view than yours.

I thought Solomon was hard enough to get my head round be he has nothing on you.

I don't know where you are coming from or what your motivations are but I will be really interested to see where you are in 2 years on your TF journey.

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

There seems to be a consensus that there are a range of mechanisms, often requiring several genes

The most authoritive literature I've seen has always talked about multiple genes, and I have not seen anything authoritive saying just one gene.

Originally Posted by mike bispham

and that just a few patrilines with those genes is often sufficient.

That's not what our NZ scientists have found. However for other places, and other bees, maybe you are correct, our scientists have only worked with our bees. Do you have a link supporting your view? No worries if you don't though.

Originally Posted by mike bispham

I don't bother keeping up to speed with all this, for the reason John Kefuss gives: you don't need to know.

If you lose 100% of your bees, you might want to know. For you, it is too soon in your journey to know if you will have long term survivors.

Originally Posted by mike bispham

With that said I may work up a freeze-brood testing set next year and give it a go. It might speed things along.

Feeze brood test is just for general hygiene. If you really want to work something up, you'd be better to test for varroa specific hygiene. I can describe the method our scientists are using if you wish.

Just for interest, our breeding program has now produced a bee that can defeat varroa, through the VSH mechanisms I've described. But they have not yet been able to fix the trait, ie, the offspring are variable. It is considered this is because of the large numbers of genes involved and the need for them all to show up in the right combination. However, the project is still ongoing.

So many hives I killed and others did that, too. It's enough! I feel ashamed about what I have done.

There's no need for any sort of shame or regret. You did what you thought was right, after lenghty consideration. Those bees would have died anyway.

Nature is immensely wasteful and cruel Bernhard, and it isn't our place to interefere. For the very good reason that by interfering we may improve things in the short term, but will make them worse still in the long term. The continuing agony of bees is only prolonged by treatments. In that, long term view, it is treatments that are cruel.

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

Again I recommend the Soft Bond Test. It achieves the same but without all the killing. It doesn't waste bee lifes. Which is completely unnecessary and completely unnatural.

Try to get straight on what 'natural' means. Use a dictionary. It means: that which occurs without the hand of man. Check that, think about it, then return to your statement above. You are thinking yourself round in circles, accumulating guilt on each turn, because you misunderstand the meaning of 'Nature'. Its a common enough error.

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

I am all for treatment free. But be smart, do it smart.

What do you think I am trying to do? I've spent an immense amount of time unpicking the mechanisms at work, and talking about them, because I think 'smart' is my way.

The only way to discover whose 'smart' is right is to talk about our beliefs honestly, openly, earnestly, and, in my view, to base our understanding on empirical science. that means proper references, and sound logic.

Re: Ask Questions Here!

Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel

Mike, we wait another four years and see then how far you have come. At least you have some bees now. Now that is a start to work from. Good luck.

And as we watch things unfold we are free to discuss, openly, honestly, earnestly, our beliefs about the mechanisms that govern bee health? No more hidden agendas? No more evasiveness? No more playground tactics? Is that your proposition?

Mike?

The race isn't always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet

Re: Winter losses vs. Summer gains

We can read that: 'The objective of my posts is to stop people (like Mike Bispham) from discussing or promulgating non-treatment methods'

There was a never a doubt about it. It is you that cause problems, not treatment free beekeeping.

You simply are not in the position to discuss anything about treatment free. Because to discuss the matter first you need knowledge. Knowledge is information + experience. You have a lot of information, fine. But you do not understand what we have been telling you, because you lack knowledge. You cannot connect the dots.

That is why anyone possibly could discuss the matter with you. You can't possibly understand, even if you read another ton of information.

So that is your turn now: become experienced.

As long as you are not experienced, there is no discussion possible. Would you discuss rocket science with a rocket engineer as a layman? Would you try to explain him, how to build rockets? Would you seriously expect him discussing with you?

That is the reason why you should trust at least a little those people, who have done it.

Re: Ask Questions Here!

Originally Posted by mike bispham

Try to get straight on what 'natural' means. Use a dictionary. It means: that which occurs without the hand of man. Check that, think about it, then return to your statement above. You are thinking yourself round in circles, accumulating guilt on each turn, because you misunderstand the meaning of 'Nature'. Its a common enough error.

Mike, not wanting to get into another debacle like yesterday, but just going to express my view on that statement. You say nature is that which occurs without the hand of man. I'll just remind you that without the hand of man, our bees would not have varroa mites. We did it to EHB something around 100 years ago, after they'd lived eons without varroa mites. So by your dictionary definition, Bernard is correct.

For that reason I've always regarded varroa as unnatural to EHB. It's semantics I know, but if you want to argue semantics with Bernhard over it, going by what the dictionary says, he is correct, as you have (unwittingly) pointed out.

Re: Ask Questions Here!

I'm with Bernhard It's all very well to read and study but you wont be taken seriously until you actually keep bees treatment free for a few years.
It's ridiculous for you to keep spouting forth about stuff you have read but havn't actually tried much less acheived.

As much as Solomon winds me up at least he's actually doing the beekeeping.

No one can take anyone seriously when they post about their success with treatment free beekeeping methods after less than 2 years !

And you need to stop with poor me I'm being picked on nonsense. Anyone that can read will have read your posts and will know whats been said by who.

As I've said before come back and give me advice when you have kept bees treatment free for a couple more years and I will pay attention but right now you are just a bag of wind.