On today’s episode of The New Stack Makers, TNS founder and editor-in-chief Alex Williams sat down with Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Brendan Burns at a lively afterparty from this year’s Portland-based OSCON 2018. To begin the conversation, Williams inquired as to the time before OSCON, before Kubernetes—Specifically, where was Burns, and what had he been working on? While working with Joe Beda and Craig McLuckie at Google, Burns noted that Docker and containers, “Really changed the game,” and that, “Orchestration was where we needed to go, but it had to be open source. It had to be a community. We had to build it out in the public, out in the open. The thing that we open sourced five years ago was a tiny, tiny shell of what it has become.”