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Just another thought. The level of conditioning where you feel those things I think comes much sooner than the level where they are conditioned to the point of handling load well.
Also I think some of the sensation may indeed come from skin mechanoreceptive endings. (Connective tissue tensions pulling on the skin from underneath)

I do understand that you are following Mr Dan. But have you tried maybe to check what Mr Mike is teaching ? I haven't maybe stated it clear before, but I did get to experience the exercises from both of the mentioned IS teachers (I never met any of them in person). I just didn't want anyone to think that I'm a know it all, so I started my first thread slowly. Hence the reason why I was asking you about how do the exercises from Mr Dan work for you. I personally found them very hard and unclear on what should I be doing. Intent based exercises are not something I can deal with unless its tennis (something my body is familiar with). When you start that kind of training you need simple to follow exercises that can be explained to a 10 year old. With simple instructions from Mr Mike after 10 minutes it is possible for anyone to create and maintain a simple groundpath - which as far as I know is the total basic of IS. Obviously you need to practice and practice to be able to deal with more load (stronger push / pull). This is also the experience of people from my club - so I think I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to say that Mr Dan is not good or something among these lines - My point here is that I found Mr Mike explanations logical and clear. Maybe to understand what Mr Dan is teaching you need to be semi-advanced with IS in the first place.

I hope this post is clear and I do apologize for the confusion at the beginning.

I do understand that you are following Mr Dan. But have you tried maybe to check what Mr Mike is teaching ? I haven't maybe stated it clear before, but I did get to experience the exercises from both of the mentioned IS teachers (I never met any of them in person). I just didn't want anyone to think that I'm a know it all, so I started my first thread slowly. Hence the reason why I was asking you about how do the exercises from Mr Dan work for you. I personally found them very hard and unclear on what should I be doing. Intent based exercises are not something I can deal with unless its tennis (something my body is familiar with). When you start that kind of training you need simple to follow exercises that can be explained to a 10 year old. With simple instructions from Mr Mike after 10 minutes it is possible for anyone to create and maintain a simple groundpath - which as far as I know is the total basic of IS. Obviously you need to practice and practice to be able to deal with more load (stronger push / pull). This is also the experience of people from my club - so I think I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to say that Mr Dan is not good or something among these lines - My point here is that I found Mr Mike explanations logical and clear. Maybe to understand what Mr Dan is teaching you need to be semi-advanced with IS in the first place.

I hope this post is clear and I do apologize for the confusion at the beginning.

Maybe to understand what Mr Dan is teaching you need to be semi-advanced with IS in the first place.

No. I don't think so.
Maybe to understand, what Mr. Dan is teaching, you just need to be taught by him in the first place?
It's allways the same: If you want to form an opinion about someone, you have to meet him. There's no other way.

If you are thinking about attending a seminar with Dan, I can asure you, you will directly experience his teaching in your body within the first minutes. And you will get an answer for every question. An answer which can also immidiately be experienced by yourself.

Hello Carsten (and congratulations!) nice to hear from you after the event. Kinda was wondering when you would decide to share something afterwards but then, you were busy getting married eh? Anyway, I couldn't agree more.

Mr. Matusiak, it strikes me you are already in favour of "Mr. Mike's" approach so why not concentrate on that? If you are still curious about "Mr. Dan" then why not consider applying for his next UK seminar?
It should not have passed you that Dan Harden has no inclination to share his thoughts on his approach (exercises) via the internet. Whether you or I agree with that is besides the point but any additional information about his method, mostly possibly shared by seminar attendees, is at best "coloured". Thus, sharing your "conclusion" based on exposure of people's methods : Mr. Mike and Mr. Dan (gosh, this sounds kinda Reservoir Dogesque) through another persons filter is rather "limited" wouldn't you say?

Time for me to jump in... Mateusz is not English and calls everyone strange things, he's not meaning anything derogatory by the terms Mr Dan or Mr Mike... However he is completely and utterly barking mad.

Having said that, he's his own person and is very welcome from my point of view to go and meet Mike, Dan, Akuzawa, Ushiro and of course Ikeda sensei or anyone else. I mention all of them on the classes but make no bones of the fact I felt more at home with Mike over Dan, doesn't mean Mateusz would think the same, I suspect he'd like Dan very much and I suspect Dan would like putting him on his backside just as much as we all do! Dan, should you ever meet a crazy Polish guy with angry eyes, it's Mateusz, although if he called you Mr Dan it might give the game away .

Think of him as a curious puppy. He wants to see and know what the 'other' guys are playing at, tis all. Actually, we constantly get asked how long we've had our puppy when we take him out in public.

I know that the best way to judge a teacher is to actually see him/her in person. But did I say at any time that someone is a bad teacher or a good one ? And I do realize that going through another persons filter can be limiting, but all of this is my personal experience and my personal thought that is based on what I have been given to try out. I do apologise if any of you have felt insulted with any of what I have said. Still, it doesn't change the fact that I'm interested to know how people think about their progress with this stuff. Maybe I am utterly barking mad and have angry eyes - still I'm interested to learn this unique skill.

And like John said : I like being put on my backside - I think its great !

Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote:

No. I don't think so.
Maybe to understand, what Mr. Dan is teaching, you just need to be taught by him in the first place?

Hence that was the reason I wrote "Maybe" at the beginning as I didn't know - that was just a guess

Time for me to jump in... Mateusz is not English and calls everyone strange things, he's not meaning anything derogatory by the terms Mr Dan or Mr Mike... However he is completely and utterly barking mad.

Having said that, he's his own person and is very welcome from my point of view to go and meet Mike, Dan, Akuzawa, Ushiro and of course Ikeda sensei or anyone else. I mention all of them on the classes but make no bones of the fact I felt more at home with Mike over Dan, doesn't mean Mateusz would think the same, I suspect he'd like Dan very much and I suspect Dan would like putting him on his backside just as much as we all do! Dan, should you ever meet a crazy Polish guy with angry eyes, it's Mateusz, although if he called you Mr Dan it might give the game away .

Think of him as a curious puppy. He wants to see and know what the 'other' guys are playing at, tis all. Actually, we constantly get asked how long we've had our puppy when we take him out in public.

I got that too John.
I also agree that everyone should get out to feel everyone. No one can be all things to all men. Hence my VERY public recommendations to folks to get out there and do so.

I was talking about this with Toby the other day. We both agree that the more exposure people have to this kind of work, and to various approaches, the better. It's not a contest. It's also interesting that broader exposure benefits and doesn't detract from training. Sure there are some methods that may contradict, but others will overlap. And who reaps the benefit....well, Budo.

We are perhaps living in the best era to learn budo there ever was, if we slow down and take the time to learn.
Dan

I got that too John.
I also agree that everyone should get out to feel everyone. No one can be all things to all men. Hence my VERY public recommendations to folks to get out there and do so.

I was talking about this with Toby the other day. We both agree that the more exposure people have to this kind of work, and to various approaches, the better. It's not a contest. It's also interesting that broader exposure benefits and doesn't detract from training. Sure there are some methods that may contradict, but others will overlap. And who reaps the benefit....well, Budo.

We are perhaps living in the best era to learn budo there ever was, if we slow down and take the time to learn.
Dan

Hi Dan,

I'm glad you didn't take what he said the wrong way - we all know how things get taken online when people aren't present.

"If we slow down and and take the time to learn"... haha, just had an argument with a friend online who accused me of having geriatric Aikido because we start the IS things with gentle / slow pushes and pulls etc. Sad thing is he only ever came once and it was only after about my first or second attempt at leading my classes in these things. He knows best of course .

At least we've had Ikeda sensei over here now (my geriatric insult toting friend didn't bother to come and see him either) so people have some clue about the current (IMHO) gold standard of Aikido with IS at long last in the UK. I think they'll all be back next year for his 2nd seminar.

I'm glad you didn't take what he said the wrong way - we all know how things get taken online when people aren't present.

Having met over 1,100 people from mostly internet connections, I have come to realize that the internet is truly a poor form of communication. Most everyone gets on really well in person, even with friendships being formed.

One thing gets cleared up pretty quick in person; and that is just who the hell knew what they were really taking about from personal ability rather than quoting others and "imagining" you were truly capable. I think that is one reason meeting opens up clear communication. Next is people seeing the nuance and reading the heart and intentions of others. I have to say that to stay in Budo for so long....to fail at something for so long and keep striving, takes a certain type of person. I've lost track of my many failures how about you?
And THAT....is all of us!!

More and more I see reasons why we should be respecting each other, even in our differences.
Meeting more and more you....taught me that.

I was at that Seminar with Ikeda Sensei, and there appeared to be a hotchpotch of understanding, misunderstanding and non-understanding on the mat; but people are quite naturally at different levels in their understanding and practice. This is true in relation to all IP arts.

But correct me if I am wrong, doesn't your teacher (John Burns) include regular Jin classes using Mike Sigman's model at your dojo? And doesn't this include solo exercises for you to do on your own as well as the application of IP principles in Aikido?

If you are looking for a supplement to the teaching you are already getting, then it will be difficult to find a teacher - they are thin on the ground. The advice given re solo training is good advice. In addition, Dan is coming back to the UK in September - you might check that out.