Monday, April 28, 2008

Last week, TASSthe paper reported that former Michigan head coach Lloyd Carr helped Justin Boren get his release from Michigan and complimented Ohio State in the process.

According to the Enquirer Dispatch, Carr told Boren that Tuos is the closest thing to Michigan he would find and that there are "good people" in C-bus. The Weekly World News Dispatch claimed the source for the story was an "unnamed person close to the situation."

I must admit, the story did sound sketchy from the get-go. Carr never seemed tight with Tressel and his bomb-sniffing minions in Buckeyeville. In fact, the whole thing had the ring of wishful thinking in C-bus, giddy over the Boren defection in the first place ("Not only do your players want to transfer here but even scUM's old coach secretly envied us and recognizes our greatness!").

Most importantly, if you're the Globe Dispatch and you're about to print a story saying Michigan's recently-retired coach not only helped facilitate the transfer of a starting player from A2 to Columbus , but also heaped praise on a hated rival in the process, don't you think maybe you'd contact Carr to verify the information? But, alas, there is no mention of such a crazy-ass thing (often called "reporting" by many newspapers) in the Star Dispatch column. Nope. One person gives you surprising info that makes a great story as your readers would wish it to be, why confirm it if it might turn out to be false and damage said story?

And does this sort of story really warrant an "unnamed" source in a (supposedly) legit newspaper? I thought that sort of "source protection" was for stories where the reporter was dealing with a huge corruption scandal at the highest levels of government, or a mole inside the mafia, maybe a double agent with insider knowledge of Iran's clandestine nuclear weapons program.

Not at the National Examiner Dispatch. Such a "Deep Throat" veil of secrecy is afforded sources for stories on transferring football players. Edward R. Murrow must be rolling over in his grave.

As for the Sun'sDispatch's source for the story? My opinion is that it sounds like something "leaked" by somebody close to Boren in an attempt to soften the perception of the Judas move ("But even Carr thought it was the best move for Justin.")

Maybe the source was The Onion. I still chuckle over the "concern" over the defection of what UM faithful now describe as a fat, out of shape, shitty lineman. If Dickrod is building such a powerhouse up in AA, why worry over one guy?

I so called that. I thought that maybe Lloyd was concerned about Boren's homesickness and would encouraged the transfer for that reason, but I highly doubted that he would think that UOS would be good for him. First, Lloyd never did seem to particularly like Tressel, and the program does not seem to be run as Lloyd would like.

Crapapple buck,

If you actually looked at Michigan's roster and paid attention to the concerns about next year's team, then you would have known that UM has only one returning o-lineman returning if my memory serves me correctly. Also, it was classless of Boren to trash UM on his way out. Now he's representing UOS.

"The upside is that Boren will now get lessons in class from 'The Tress'." Whets, you forgot to include the best part of the classiness lessons: They come with a brand new Caddy, a handle of Grey Goose and Skoal chewing tobacco.

T-9, O queen of darkness, the light is too strong within me to succumb to your wiles. Your siren song cannot bind me. Your charms are ineffective against the truth.

Escape, my dear. Escape from delusions steeped in the acrid scent of sulphurous defeat. Allow the scales to fall from your abusively deceived heart. Burst forth into the golden hues and dulcet tones that will lead you to the unfettered joy know as Buckeye Nation.

I encountered one of those Buckeye fans who insist the LSU game was close this weekend. When I told him he was delusional he pulled out all kinds of stats, which are actually quite close yet in no way indicative of the actually beat down the Buckeyes received. I'm still baffled as to how they think it was close. He kept saying it was "winnable", but they were never within less than 14 and even attempted to convert a 4th down with 7 minutes left in the 4th! I should be used to it by now, but the level of psychosis in columbus is simply mind-blowing- I have no idea how you do it.

As an OSU fan, I would have to say that what LSU did to us was a beat down. However, the media loves to play up everything with colorful terms like "rout" or "ran over" or "thumped", etc. It justifies all those other teams that think the Big 10 is a cakewalk. Personally I was still hopeful with about 10 minutes left to go in the game. We were down by 14 and we had the ball. Considering the last 6 minutes of the Appy State game, you guys should know better than anybody that a lot can happen with that kind of time. And if you don't like that example, I was ready to turn off the Boise St - OK Bowl game after OK returned an INT for TD with about 2 minutes to go. Good thing I didn't since obviously the game wasn't over at that point. Anyway, saying the game was "winnable" isn't an overstatement. Saying it was "close" is another thing. They outplayed us on both sides of the ball. Honestly, I never expected us to compete for a NC last season, so it bums me out that people want to immediately discount us heading into this year. If we manage to beat USC in their yard even the haters at ESPN will have to give us some cred.

if you start w/ the proposition that the FLA-tosu game, when sweaterboy gave up on tosu w/ about 5-8 minutes to go in the half by going for it on 4th & 1 from his own 29, after which the whole team pretty much lay down and settled for going thru the motions for the rest of the game, represents NOT being "winnable"?

then yeah, sure, the game against LSU was "winnable". but only by comparison to last year's debacle. by any other standard it was a rout/blow out/mauling.

and for reference, i suggest all suckeye fans go back and review their own/their fellow fans comments following the 2006 michigan game, after which they pretty uniformly thumped their collective chests and talked about how they dominated and how michigan never lead and what a beat down it was.

if that game, decided by 3 points was a "beat down"? the words for what happened to tosu against LSU or FLA haven't been smithed yet.

Nice to see there's another sane buckeye out there (Whets- you're not alone after all!) Yes, the game was "winnable". Close though, not so much. The argument I was receiving was a fact-based rant about how close you guys were to winning, and while you had a shot, the overall outcome was never in doubt. If you had cut it to within 7, then it's an entirely different ballgame, and one play changes everything. As it was, I was trying to talk some Buckeye friends off the ledge via text message. (In hindsight, I should've just let those bastards jump!)

Curiosity question. My buddy Clay and I were talking (while he was on the ledge) about whether or not the Sweatervest would/could make the necessary adjustments at the half, and by all accounts he didn't seem to at all. Any idea why this is? He seems to be a tremendous coach and causes me a wee bit of regurgitation upon hearing his name, but the adjustments seem to never come. Any thoughts?

everyone i know pretty much said it was a close game. easily one of the best football games I've ever seen.

with that being said, everytime a michigan fan talked about how they should have won if it were not for the crable call, THEN of course we exaggerated in the opposite direction, saying that it wasn't winnable for Michigan.

as for the lsu game, you can't look at stats because Michigan out-statted Appy state, however i would say that the stupid austin spitler roughing the punter penalty really killed our chances. went from what COULD have been a 24-17 game to 31-10.

hopefully we'll get our chance (again) at redemption this year. just hope winning the last game of the regular season won't hurt our SOS too much...

Everyone you know isn't a valid sample as I guess they're all UoOS fans. That game just wasn't close. Sorry. As for best CFB football games ever, gotta go with a few other LSU games this year, the Boise St. game (missed it- passed out after being awarded a $100 (comped) bar tab that day), the Colorado game (shoot me) the Miami- Penn state game back in the day, and that's just off the top of my head. As for Michigan games, the '97 OSU game, the game against UVA, and the 3 OT Lil' brother game come to mind.

I was camping during what I consider was one of the greatest Saturdays in college foootball. Yes, Michigan was a dreaded 7-5 in 2005, but all Wolverine fans can recall that the gem of that season was the Penn State game.

Not only did I see that update on an extremely delayed sports update through my friend's cell phone internet browser, but also missed Reggie Bush carry Lienhart over the goalline at ND. That's what you get when you wear ridiculously hideous green jerseys.

I know there were some other close games that came right down until the end (I think I'm missing a close Big 12 game...), but it hurt to come back Sunday and see what I missed on the 10 am Sportscenter.

Back to the topic of the article though - I can say that a fellow Wolverine and I have been duking it out through e-mail with an OSU fan. Actually, I wouldn't even call it "duking out", but more or less, a heated form of discussing.

Overall, it's clear Boren was not mentally and physically prepared to play for R2's faster O-line, so he went to another top Big Ten school that excels at the same type of football that Carr used.Boren transferring to OSU and leaving his "trashing" comments was not a bad statement towards the UM program, but to Rodriguez. And it's all because he wasn't willing to adapt to the new system.

In other words, Boren lacks motivation, which I would say makes any football player weak. Rodriguez's new line, without Boren, will be more apt to play the way he wants them to play (which could still be bad this year, nonetheless). So, I'm not losing sleep over Boren leaving, even to OSU, and I'm sure no other Michigan fan is either.

wtrk,that's a very accurate point. Boren was a rising star on last year's line @ Michigan. he could be a star again in a similar scheme.

however, last year's line @ michigan pretty much sucked. yeah, we blew ND & PSU off the line, but struggled w/ anyone who stunted, blitzed, or brought speed from the edge.

michigan's offensive scheme has for years now been widely criticized as obsolete, predictable, and unproductive. that has included the line play.

so for Boren to be successful somewhere else, he'd have to play in a system that doesn't require the linemen to move "in space" or rely heavily on conditioning. that means a team whose line, like M's in the past, is big, lumbering, and slow- which make them vulnerable to speed rushes and blitzes and ineffective pass blocking against top flight competition...

now that i think more about it, tosu is perfect for him. he'll fit right in.

Joshua - I wish I had some sort of explanation for the Sweatervest's NC gameplans, and the entire lack of halftime adjustments. I find it almost disgusting that everyone with half a braincell on ESPN can come up with better gameplans then our coaches when the hardware is on the line. Two years in a row we take on SEC teams that are designed to stop the pass and can't stop the run. (Did Tressel even WATCH the Arkansas game????) What do we do? We try to throw. When that doesn't work, we try to throw some more. When that doesn't work, we try to run. When that DOES work, we go right back to the pass. At halftime we discuss what works and what doesn't ... then we pass some more. In fact, how about we pass on first down too, we've been running too much. And anyone who is about to interject that we were falling behind so we had to pass, not going to fly. We started getting away from Beanie from the minute he busted his long TD run in the opening minutes.

I can't understand why it makes perfect sense to run the ball for 12 games, but not 13. I'm so sick of hearing that we're 0-9 against the SEC given the fact that I have NEVER seen OSU attempt to play Big 10 football against these schools. Its like we try to beat them at their own game, and then wonder why we lose.

SiC - you kill me. I'm yet to see a single post from you that doesn't drip with venom and bias. I would bet for every suckeye fan beating their chest over the 3 point butt-kicking in 2006 there were probably 10 that would say that was simply a great game between two very evenly matched teams. Of course back to the point of this story, my buddy happens to have the front cover of the Dispatch from that next day framed on his wall and it happens to use the term "pounded" to describe our win. (Clearly more accurate and unbiased reporting) WVU pounded Oklahoma. Georgia pounded Hawaii. USC pounded Illinois. That's my defintion. However by your defintion we pounded you guys in 2007? Would you agree with that? Up by two scores ... final result never in doubt ... that sort of thing.

I still stand by my theory that Papa Boren was promised a scholarship for Zach, and when it became clear he wasn't getting an offer he took his ball and went home. That fits with the "family values" comment, and if you throw in the change in regime and the fact that Justin wasn't going to be handed a starting spot all adds up. As for whether or not Justin succeeds in Columbus, well, he's talented, but we haven't been pulling the type of talent that Jim Trifle has been. Those guys are all big-time USC caliber studs- it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

"Bias"? coming from someone w/ a handle of "OSURULZ", an accusation of bias seems more than a little hypocritical, but i'll cop to it nonetheless. i'm a michigan fan, commenting on a michigan blog. i'm biased towards michigan. guilty as charged.

"venom"? that's a stretch. i don't like a lot of tosu fans. i particularly don't like tosu trolls (ahem). however, if factual statements about tosu player arrests, ncaa compliance problems, or tosu fan behavior are poison, so be it.

to answer your question, yes, we were pounded last november. our offense was worthless. short of a couple of miraculous fumble recovery/pick 6 plays, we weren't going to score in the 2nd half, let alone win.

the Dispatch headline on the 2006 pounding (by 3 points) is a good example of the typical over reaching and over hype that characterizes tosu and its fans sense of self inflation. colin cowherd alludes to this condition on his radio show frequently (and if ever there was someone who was NOT a michigan fan, it's cowherd). this isn't just a michigan fan's bias.

yost has past posts available in the archives. it doesn't take much work to go back and read the comments from late nov/early dec from tosu fans celebrating the pounding. tosu comments speak for themselves on this topic.

but of course this doesn't apply to you. i'm sure there are many rational tosu fans who assess things evenly w/out bias or venom. just like there are yetis, elves, and hobbits- and many other mythical creatures who exist in lore but you never really see walking down the street.

SiC - everyone here is biased towards a favorite team. That's how a 3 point win becomes a "pounding" and a 14 point loss was "a close game". However not everyone needs to say "trust me I'm from Columbus, so I see first hand how every single one of them eats babies." I guess all this troll can do is try to change opinions by not making inflamatory statements on a Michigan board ... or perhaps change my diet.

Every trip I've taken to TSUN I've come away with similar examples of how rediculous the press is up there. Just before The Game this year I was hearing on the radio how Tressel never had Lloyd's number, Troy Smith did. Well after the game I didn't hear a redaction even though Tress was now 3-0 with Troy Smith and 3-1 without him.

In 2005 I was listening to the post game and you would have thought that the big story at the end of the game was how Gonzalez "stepped" out of bounds on the final drive. Funny how nobody else felt that this was in any way significant or even worth mentioning in most recaps.

drulz,response no. 1 of all tosu fans when confronted w/ any issue is: it happens everywhere.

i have no doubt that your trips to A2 on game days have given you exposure to michigan and its fans and a plenary experience by which to form opinions on michigan and the enitrety of its sports culture. no doubt the two post game call in shows to which you have listened have provided you a clear insight to the behavior of michigan fans as well.

so, you think i/others have unfairly characterized tosu fans as deluding themselves as to their shortcomings? of course! it happens everywhere, even at michigan.

on the other hand, my observations that you question are just that: my observations. i have never suggested they are anything else.

i've lived in Ohio off & on for 35 years, the last 18 in columbus. i have attended 18 of the last 23 tosu-michigan games and over a dozen other tosu games against other opponents. i've read local papers and listened to local sports (radio & tv) for over a decade.

the observations, and the opinions i base off those observations, i share w/ fellow michigan fans are just that, the observations and opinion of a michigan fan given to other michigan fans.

that tosu fans don't like them or think that "it happens everywhere" is not much of a concern to me.

Word has it that Tate Forcier, the #3 dual threat QB has stated that he wouldn't be scared off by Shavodrick's commitment, and he's definitely interested. I don't really see it happening (3 QB recruits from the Rivals 250? Holy Jebus) but it would accelerate my idea that we'll be the USC of dual threat quarterbacks in a few years.

And T9,His name is exactly why we SHOULD take him. For instance, how enticing is a handoff from Shav'd Beaver to Mike Cox? Somewhere the 12 year old inside me is doing a crazy jig while wearing a "I cheer for Shav'd Beaver" t-shirt.

SiC - You call that inflamatory? My fault. No wonder every suckeye is the target of your wrath. Just trying to use some topical humor.

I've simply been fascinated how Boren went from being a Big 10 honorable mention, and your best returning OL, to a fat lazy POS overnight. And while I'm at it, why he fits in so well with our slow, plodding, system that the NFL continues to eat up. Or how even the shoddy out-of-date system that Michigan has run under Lloyd Carr that just got Jake taken #1. Especially since RR's system hasn't churned out a single OL worthy of the NFL.

You want to call him Judas? OK. You think he should have kept his mouth shut? Fine. But I'm going to take exception with anyone who suggests you're better off without him and we're worse off with him.

Now please, rip my argument to shreds with your 35 years of experience. Since we're on a Michigan blog you should have the home field advantage.

"so for Boren to be successful somewhere else, he'd have to play in a system that doesn't require the linemen to move "in space" or rely heavily on conditioning."

SiC,

Here's where you make your mistake. All your assumptions are based on things not changing anywhere else in the universe--except for your new program.

That kind of myopic reasoning can get you killed in some places. Your enemy evolves because you evolve.

Possibilities:

#1 - The Bucks and other Big 10 schools see the need to change systems to meet new threats. Only an idiot won't change with the times. You make the assumption that Tressel and staff are idiots (half-time at the last two NCs are an anomaly) and are just waiting for the RR express to run over them. The times they are a-changin’ on other campi.

#2 - Boren gets his extra weight run off at tOSU and becomes a force to be reckoned with. Unless of course, you believe UM is the only school to come out of the dark ages regarding conditioning. From all the Michigan comments over the past couple of months, I think it's safe to say that you all are the ones late to the conditioning party.

Therefore: Boren could thrive in a new environment, playing in new offensive schemes and become a lighter, faster and more agile player. Really, it could happen.

The fact that he left you guys and trashed RR on the way out is a worthy yet completely different debate in my opinion.

Jake is an anomaly. In 2005 we had two THREE YEAR STARTERS go undrafted. We've only had two OL drafted since '01, one in the 2nd round and one in the 7th. As for the NFL "eating up" your linemen, you've produced 4 draftees since '02. Rod not developing any NFL O-linemen is immaterial. He hasn't had the caliber of player to develop that he will have here. That can be judged after a few years maybe, but judging him based on WV is just silly.

As for why Justin went from "Honorable mention" to fat POS, well, our S&C program has been stuck in the dark ages since, well, the dark ages. The POS part he brought upon himself by taking a cowardly swipe at the new regime on his way out the door. If he's not happy I have no problem with him leaving, but a) get on and be done with it and b)don't try to pin it on "lack of family values".

Josh, that's the general argument that I was expecting. I think its right on point, but I'm calling out the fact that Michigan fans (SiC included) that seem to believe that Boren couldn't hack it in RR's "improved" system but might still find glory if he's not asked to do too much. That's why I leave room for hating the guy for the other reasons (like you mentioned), but reject this notion that he is some second-tier tub o' lard.

I've also heard the argument about recruiting talent at WVU vs UM and I'm sure that better recruits will eventually lead to better NFL prospects, but the fact that RR's scheme has produced zero NFL caliber OL might say something about why Boren was willing to jump ship.

And yes, if you look at the last 5 years there isn't a steady stream of OL heading from Buckeye nation to the NFL. I guess I was looking at the totals over a longer period of time. Right now we have 9 OL in the NFL according to ESPN.com, WVU has 0. I'm wagering Alex Boone will join them next year while RR will still have a goose egg (this year not his fault).

wtrk,myopia? you wound me. truly. i don't think i said he couldn't/wouldn't be a success somewhere else. i said to be a success, w/out changing his conditioning routine, he'll have to go to a school that runs its conditioning program more or less the same as Carr did.

now, if tosu is going to run a more demanding conditioning program for its line, won't that defeat the purpose of his leaving? (unless you REALLY believe "family values" in which case you voted for dan quayle and refused to watch murphy brown because she was an unwed mother, but you & i are the only two likely old enough to remember any of that AND i digress)

either way, something will have to change for him. either tosu will run a similar program to what he likes (bad for you) or they will run a more demanding program (bad for him).

but overall, i think we agree, don't we?

as for drulz,are you old enough to remember when Barry Switzer recruited Troy Aikman?? and then Aikman transferred to UCLA? Troy was never going to be an option QB, was he?

Boren isn't going to run well in a spread, no matter how good he was in a zone. if he wasn't going to get in shape, he wasn't going to play, and he's not really a loss. sort of like OU losing Troy.

and comparing R2's pro player development @ wvu is almost as sensless as comparing Sweaterboy's nfl draft players @ YSU to his record now.

it would be more akin to arguing that Prior went to tosu because R2's system doesn't produce NFL QB's so he went to Sweaterboys because of his track record of developing NFL QBs.

SiC - we totally agree on that sentiment. In fact, I used the same type of Troy - OU argument when defending Mallett's transfer, its just that nobody was questioning his work ethic or inherent talent like they are with Boren.

However, comparing Tressel at YSU to RR at WVU is sooooooooo not the same thing.

And funny you should mention Pryor. He totally mentioned how Tressel transformed Troy Smith from a run-first, pass-if-you-have-to prospect into a Heisman winner and NFL QB as one of his reasons he chose OSU over Michigan. In fact, he even pointed out how spread option QB's that light up the college ranks have fizzled in the NFL. He's looking to get to the NFL himself and I guess he didn't figure RR's system was the right fit for him long term.

And anyone who is set to pounce on my Troy Smith is an NFL QB argument, he's in the NFL right now and as far as anyone knows, he's going to stay.

Not to completely thread-jack, but being a Browns fan I'm well aware of Baltimore's history developing QB's. After dismantling Chris Redman's career they've managed to essentially drain all hope for the once promising 1 round pick Kyle Boller. However they felt that Derrick Anderson was a waste of time and cut him from the team.

So good luck to Flacco, I'm sure that anyone who couldn't win the starting job at Pitt is going to rise like a rocket ship in the Raven's organization.

I believe (though I have no proof) that tOSU’s conditioning program is strenuous enough to nullify the “Boren is a slacker” argument. I really do believe he likes the atmosphere better at OSU. That is not a slight to you all. It just may be a fact that the kid knew he would be at loggerheads with RR eventually and left for his own good. Again, the verbal hand grenades on the way out remains a different discussion.

Therefore, OSU running a more demanding program is good for Boren if his leaving wasn’t about conditioning. A happy camper puts out more effort.

Also, if OSU runs a similar program to what he likes, it’s still good for us and good for him. Similar doesn’t necessarily mean easier. I don’t see this as an either/or question because I don’t accept the variables offered up.

In the end, I hope the kid does well. I’m sure he learned some valuable life lessons through all of this. In the end, isn’t that what matters?

Regarding Quayle vs. Murphy Brown, I never watched an episode about the bitch.

ok, stepping back for a moment, what is it tosu fans are arguing about again?

various factions of the faithful have been referring to our underperforming O line as fat, slow, and lazy for several years. this started in 2004, escalated in 2005, ebbed in 2006, and grew huge in 2007. our running game disappeared at times through out the last 4 years (particularly in 2005 when Long was injured).

where were the tosu fans disagreeing w/ that assessment then?

in january, the starting right tackle and right guard, both of whom had a year of eligibility still, decided to not return before conditioning started. it was widely written that they were slow, fat, & lazy and couldn't cut it for 2008.

where were the tosu fans disagreeing w/ that assessment then?

a week into practice Boren was interviewed. he talked about how hard conditioning had been. he cited the trouble he was having adjusting to the up tempo offense and having to run to the line of scrimmage after each play.

while he was young, had raw talent, and therefore some hope of adjusting, most michigan fans attributed his issues to being fat, slow, and out of shape (tempered by the hope of improvement). he was less fat, slow, and out of shape than everyone other than jake long, but fat, slow, and out of shape nonetheless.

where were the tosu fans disagreeing w/ that assessment then?

so what is it about to michigan fans' reactions to Boren's actions that tosu fans find so puzzling?

that we think (like the rest of most of the world, tosu fans included) that he quit because he didn't want to continue conditioning/running to the line?

given that, is it that we don't think he was going to contribute much next year anyway?

is it that we resent him making snotty gratuitous comments on the way out the door?

or that we don't think he'll be very successful anywhere w/ out making a major adjustment?

my undying admiration? sorry, lost the statuette i was gonna hand out.

okay, so there might not be anything objectively wrong w/ the reaction but we've just gone too far (& long w/ it)?

that's possible. we, as a fan base, do hang on to things a long time. personally, i still hate the sight of kordell stewart. not his fault. tremendous throw. have blanked out the name of the safety who went for the pick instead of knocking it down. but kordell just brings it all back heaving up.

so, yeah, maybe we've gone on about it awhile. however, ask yourself this (rhetorically, if you prefer) if the kid hadn't gone to tosu, would michigan fans still be pissing on him, and if so, would you care?

go to any popular tosu board. log in w/ a handle that denotes you are a michigan fan. make any comment on whatever tosu recruit they are chatting about commensurate to your quip about Beaver. then let us know whether your fellow tosu fans thought it was inflammatory.

second, the ysu- wvu comparison is actually very appropriate. the point is coaches' records of recruiting talent/putting kids in the nfl will vary based on where they are coaching. yes, the gap between ysu and tosu is considerably wider than the gap between michigan & wvu, but the same principal still applies.

weak sports writers cite to R2's system as the reason for his low number of pros. however, is the number of nfl players he's produced out of line w/ wvu's record over all? i have not researched it(the first time nate would have been useful & he's no where around?), but i would guess that wvu under R2 put as many, if not more, kids in the nfl as it did under its previous coaches, going back to bowden.

R2's system doesn't stop you from recruiting and developing pro line man or qbs. jake long could run in R2's scheme. as will dann oneil (sp?). culpepper/young/harbaugh(yes, i said the H name) all would have excelled in a spread option. all made good pros.

and finally, sorry, but troy smith as a pro? this guy is a minimum wage 6th round pick playing back up to kyle boller and a retired guy. ravens drafted Flacco because troy couldn't beat out boller?

sorry, but todd collins has thrown more tds in the nfl over the last 7 years than all of sweaterboy's qbs combined. if Prior really went to tosu to become a pro? he choose poorly.

thanks-not, T-9. now i have to go drink another half bottle of wine just to forget the names again in order to sleep.

i have to say it was the quietest i've ever heard a large crowd.

the only thing that even comes close was '96- the snake pit after brian hit streets on the slant for the td. it may have actually been quieter, but since it wasn't the end of the game, the crowd picked up pretty quick.

leaving the stadium after that colorado game was like leaving a funeral. and it hung on the air for an hour.

That's the best I've ever heard it described, like leaving a funeral, only yeah, it was more tangible and hung in the air. Never, ever experienced that kind of eerie quiet before that day, and hope I never do again. Yegh.

josh,yeah, i've struggled to find myself and use logic as a vocation. haven't had much luck yet. barely broke even as a rodeo clown (bulls just won't listen) and my time spent as a florist was even worse.

but thanks.

and yeah, it was an eerie silence. i had scored 45 yd line seats (behind the CU bench).

the visitors sat near that section. the celebration by the roughly 4000 Buffs fans actually made the silence of the other 105000 even more apparent. you could hear them cheer, and then it just died- absorbed into the surrounding silence.

SiC - If you really find me rephrasing your barbs at Boren and redirecting them at the Beave in a theoretical sense to be inflamatory, you really need to grow some thicker skin man. I get it when you guys b1tch about OSU fans coming in here for a quick F-you, but that ain't me. Besides, first I'd have to find a message board where OSU fans are actively slamming a player before this experiment could have any merit.

I'm sticking up for Boren because I don't like the way he's being thrown under the bus for making a decision that he probably didn't come to lightly. He's already played on the team two years. He has friends, he has teammates, he has maize and blue in in veins and his brother was set to follow in his footsteps. He changes all that, and his father adamantly supports his decision? He tosses away a year where he could be playing and he chooses to throw away the rest of his scholarship and pay his own way just so he can play at OSU? Am I really supposed to believe he did this because he didn't like gassers? Really? Changes his whole world on a dime because he doesn't want to work hard in the gym?

Or maybe his dainty ears couldn't handle F bombs. Sure that makes sense, because nobody at OSU uses the F word, and we certainly wouldn't send one in the direction of someone who went Michigan. We just print it on our T-shirts and save our voices for the game.

Long story short, I'm not buying it. You shouldn't either, but obviously you do.

And honestly I'm not defending him because he chose to come to OSU. I've been defending his decision from the get-go, just not on these boards. And calling your whole line fat and lazy is different than singling out one kid, which is what he is.

And there is no comparison between WVU and YSU. Maybe you think there is since 1-AA schools are no longer an automatic win for you guys, but your program wouldn't have been pantsed by the national media for losing to WVU. WVU wouldn't be printing off t-shirts if they beat you in your own house. I don't know how you can even compare WVU who sits atop a BCS conference with YSU and act like RR had two hands tied behind his back in the recruiting game. Was the $2 million he was getting paid not enough to afford snake oil back then?

And finally, the great Tom Brady started out as a 6th rounder who only saw the light of day because Drew Bledsoe got injured. And Troy Smith is the first QB in the Tressel era that Tressel actually recruited. The fact that Craig Krenzel even made it to the pros is a credit to Tress. So when you tell me how wrong I am, please be sure to remind me which QB your program (or coach) took from being a track star to a Heisman winner. Scratch that, just tell me which Michigan QB most reminds you of Pryor? I'm guessing ... Harbaugh.

For a 500,000 ft long pipeline carrying a viscous polymeric melt of density 2.4 g/cm3, and viscosity 0.1 cP, two technicians in the plant were asked to do the calculations for specifying the pump power rating. They reported different results. Their supervisor went over the calculations and found that the problem was due to Tech1’s measurement of the pipe diameter which was in 3% error. How much error did this cause in the flow rate, Q, which offset the pressure drop calculations? Use one of the Haagen-Poiseuille equations

Why is everyone still on the "Boren hates working hard" or "Boren is a choir boy that can't handle swearing"?Fact: RR was not going to offer little brother Zach a sholarsip.Fact: Daddy Boren says he won't have his sons playing at different schools.Where is there room for speculation as to why he left?

"And there is no comparison between WVU and YSU. Maybe you think there is since 1-AA schools are no longer an automatic win for you guys," Yep, drulz just dropped by to have a civil, logic-based discussion on his favorite topic (UM) with his favorite people (UM fans). Please don't compare him to UOS fans that make incendiary remarks - he's soooo above that.

Ok... who the F, brought up the Colorado game... that was my first trip to A2 to see campus with my friend who was on the swim team and a good friend....

Went to the game... were excited for 99% of the game as we though UM was going to win... when the ball went up, it was slow motion... I remember screaming "NOOOOOOO!" when it was tipped in the air... and the rest... well... funeral.

Also, I went to a great party that night... but everyone was in a crap mood because of the outcome... would have been better had they won... but c'est la vie!

"For a 500,000 ft long pipeline carrying a viscous polymeric melt of density 2.4 g/cm3, and viscosity 0.1 cP, two technicians in the plant were asked to do the calculations for specifying the pump power rating. They reported different results. Their supervisor went over the calculations and found that the problem was due to Tech1’s measurement of the pipe diameter which was in 3% error. How much error did this cause in the flow rate, Q, which offset the pressure drop calculations? Use one of the Haagen-Poiseuille equations"

For anyone who thinks I came here to pick a fight, please go back to my first post and see how SiC immediately jumps all over me and makes all kinds of inflamatory statements after I agreed with Joshua. I've certainly taken WAY more jabs then I've given. I'm trying to play nice, but I'm not going to try all that hard. Therefore, I'm not going to directly reply to people attacking me or directly call them out. Maybe we can normalize relations.

"Or maybe his dainty ears couldn't handle F bombs. Sure that makes sense, because nobody at OSU uses the F word, and we certainly wouldn't send one in the direction of someone who went Michigan. We just print it on our T-shirts and save our voices for the game."

...eh, come on... COME ON!!!

Not one single college sports team can make that claim, especially tOSU. Blogging on a Michigan fan site to point out flaws and put down the program is expected from all tOSU fans, but to glorify tOSU to all of us is a joke.

I already had my laugh today watching "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia", but thanks for providing me an alternative source.

to osurulz, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we laugh at trolls, or took a few liberties to degrade uos trolls - we do. But you can't hold a whole website responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole internet system? And if the whole internet system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our communication systems in general? I put it to you, osurulz - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can say whatever you want to us, but I for one am not going to stand here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!

phil, i swear i could hear someone humming the battle hymn of the republic as i read your comment.

as for drulz, vadatripp really nailed it- he's a long winded jack ass.

drulz wants to appear rational. probably tells himself he's not like all the couch burning, beer can throwing suckeye fans. considers himself more civilized and above that. wants poor stupid michigan fans to be impressed by his "logic" and calmly see his & "tress's" (what a pathetic nickname) superiority on our own as a result of his prose. and when we don't, or worse, call out his stupidity, he throws the internet beer cans.

he skips facts he doesn't like. avoids questions he doesn't want to answer. and in the end, when all else fails, comes up w/ the "6-1 bitches!" response. or "App St bitches!" in this case.

ignore him. maybe he'll go away.

sru,nehlen put close to 80 guys in the nfl over 20 years. but a lot of them came later in his tenure as he & the program became more established.

i tried to look it up, but these kind of stats aren't easy to find or compare. it looks like he put about 7-10 guys in the nfl his first 7 years of coaching. same records indicate R2 put about 5-7 in during the same time period, but that's very back of the envelope. also, it's hard to compare guys who went into the nfl during a coaches tenure that he didn't neccessarily recruit along w/ tracking guys a coach recruited but who went into the nfl during the next coaches tenure.

what i meant but didn't type is that over the last 7 years of his coaching career at wvu (same number of years as rrod), nehlen produced almost twice as many players that were drafted by the nfl as rrod.

rrod - 10 players and that's after having 3 drafted last weekend - he was at 7 in 6 years before that.

nehlen - 18 from 94 to 2000

http://www.drafthistory.com/colleges/w.html

now you can look it up

to make matters worse, rrod had 1 player picked in the first round, none in the 2nd, and 2 in the 3rd. Nehlen had 1 first rounder, 7 in the 2nd, and 4 in the 3rd round.

so not only did nehlen have quantity over rrod, he also had much more quality.

so sic's 'guess' about rrod putting players in the nfl was waaaaaaay off

sucks when someone uses stats to prove you wrong i know but now you probably know why mallett left and why you'll probably see the same trend at UM over the years. nehlen was recruiting from the same 'lower class' pool of players that rrod was - he just knew how to make them into better players before they left - players that the NFL actually wanted.

Yeah... should work on Friday... I'll be in the office. Nearly everyone else will take a 4 day weekend, but I need to conserve my holiday for this summer when I will be playing in the European Cup Men's Fast Pitch Softball tournament in Belgium (yes, men's softball)....

Ah... we have Ascension tomorrow... then on Monday the 12th... Pentecost!!

nicknames (as sru suggests)? Ok, maybe. though i still think taking "tressel" to "tress" is about as cool as "Bowden" to "Bow" or "Carroll" to "Car"??

sru,thank you for going back & trying to compare the the first 7 years of nehlen's career.

However, I think you are still misreading the numbers. The site you referenced lists players by draft year. Nehlen started in 1980. that means all the players drafted from wvu in ’81 through ’83 were players Nehlen inherited. His recruits, who arrived in 1980 season, weren’t eligible for the draft until the 1984 draft. the ’84 draft thru the ’87 draft were all nehlen recruits, and there were nine taken.

R2 had 10 guys taken during his tenure. 2 of them, drafted in 2003 were Nehlen’s recruits. One guy was taken in 2004 but could have been either of their recruit (unlike the ‘80’s, juniors are draft eligible so the 2004 pick could be a sr nehlen recruit or jr R2 recruit).

Nehlen coached WVU through the 2000 season. These draft stats show he had 5 guys taken in the 1999 draft and 4 taken in 2000. since the draft is in april, his last team of players would have gone in the 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 drafts. WVU had a total of 3 players taken in the drafts.

Basically, the team R2 inherited in 2001 (soph, jrs, & srs all Nehlen recruits) would produce no NFL players out its senior class for the 2002 draft. The 2nd year team (jrs & srs Nehlen recruits) would produce 2 NFL players for the 2003 draft. And the 3rd year team (srs Nehlen recruits) produced maybe one (assuming player taken in 2004 draft was NOT an R2 recruit leaving in jr year).

Nehlen’s last 4 recruiting classes (80 some players) had no more than 3 NFL caliber players in them.

Frankly, that R2 could inherit a team that bereft of nfl talent, turn it into a winner in a couple seasons and then start producing nfl players and 10 win seasons in that short of time is even more impressive.

not totally buying the inherited angle. maybe for the seniors and some juniors but not freshmen and sophs. rrod is inheriting stonum and hemmingway - if he turns them into nfl draft picks, he should get the credit, not carr.

oliver luck was inherited by nehlen but his last two years, nehlens first two years, are what got him drafted.

regardless, to the original point of this thread about carr, what's carr gonna say when asked about this? yes i did it? or "that's a lie!!" i could see carr doing that though (helping boren) - he's a coach that seemed to care about his players on a personal level - whether it was keeping their positive drug tests hidden (mario), or making sure they had professor hagen on speed dial whenever they needed to remain eligible.

So Nehlen puts 9 people in the NFL in his last two seasons and we're supposed to assume that the cupboard was bare when RR showed up?

And yeah, the Big East was completely dominated by Miami and VT. RR and WVU didn't become relevant on the national stage until after they left. For that matter, they didn't become relevant on the national stage until Pat White stepped foot on campus.

I think it's important to note that RR < pond scum < Nehlen in the eyes of all tUOS fans no matter how many stats or bits of logic you throw up there, SiC. Unless, of course, he was STILL AT WVU. Then, he's a great guy! (Don't worry about it. Thin how bad they'll feel if someone that incompetent actually beats them in November. We can bookmark this thread.)

Oh, also, Boren is just a misunderstood man following his heart and Lloyd is a liar because Ohio media is KING! And you are a poopyhead.

Yes... heavily will not really cover it... at least I don't have to get up before noon tomorrow!

Son, you can't drink all day unless you get up early. Keep that in mind.

As for lack of NFL players, lack of this, sketchiness that, blah, blah, blah- what is the point? Do UoOS fans (and everyone else in existence) think that by telliing us Rod will suck they can make it happen? Or maybe we'll all just so "okay" and try to have him fired? It's funny the way fear manifests.....

Whoa, nobody said he sucks, or that he's going to suck. I've looked at this whole thread (excluding internet beer cans) as whether or not Boren, or Mallett, or Pryor, were trying to make the best decisions for themselves. The basic argument is that they're looking to get to the NFL and whether or not RR and his system has proven itself to be a viable avenue for these players given the track record we have so far. Certainly Michigan as a whole has been very NFL friendly. Under Carr these arguments would fall apart. RR has certainly shown he's a pretty darn good college coach. Maybe Shavt Beaver becomes the next Donovan McNabb and renders this whole discussion irrelevant. Time will tell. Until then, can we question it in good faith?

Sure, if I actually thought someone with the handle osurulz and someone with an avatar that said Morons was actually questioning it in good faith, then I might actually lend the argument credence. Of course, I'd probably actually wait until that coach had, you know, ACTUALLY COACHED A FRICKING GAME WITH HIS NEW TEAM before I started labelling him a loser, but your Suckeye mileage may vary.

Seriously, I've been hearing Suckeye idiots call Carr a senile, behind-the-times fool for the last 3 years and now compared to RRod he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I don't even know why I'm debating this a damn tUOS fan. You all are going to continue ripping U-M anyways (and Yost - in his infinite kindness, which I'm QUITE SURE no Suckeye forum moderator has - is going to allow you to continue throwing out pithy insults at UM), so I'll just continue to trade nasty insults with you until you feel compelled to leave. Of course, knowing that Suckeye fans feed on this, I'm sure you'll continue to infest this site like tUOS drunks at a truck stop.

Mr. vadatripp, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Seriously, you want to trade barbs until I quit? Let's make it challenging. Tell me how The Game plays out next year. We can bookmark this entry as you suggest and if you're right, I'm gone.

Gee, thanks retarded Billy Madison. I think I'll wait until the season actually plays out before I make predictions on The Game since I can't see the future, but obviously you can. And RichRod is a loser in your "visions" so I'll just see if that comes to fruition.

But you're a complete @sshole for simply trying to incite U-M fans on a U-M board if that "barb" makes you feel any better.

dude, you are moving up in the world. what's next? "Squire" Vadatripp? "Sir" Vadatripp? "Lord" Vadatripp?

you must have hit a nerve!

and frankly, that's what this little ongoing temper tantrum is really all about. no one goes around spitting on tim brewster, or even dantonio. why? because not too many tosu/others are worried about them.

Well Vada, I feel you are a complete @sshole for putting words in my mouth and then railing me for it. I didn't say RR sucks. I didn't call Lloyd out of touch. I didn't even say we were going to win next year. Yet you had no problem going straight to name calling and the snappy "this ain't your blog" comeback. If anything Yost should be removing your posts since they involve nothing more than personal attacks. Its not exactly the same as me saying that maybe RR's record was bolstered by Pat White or the vacancy of VT and Miami.

just as bad as osu fans calling rrod a loser before he coaches a down of football at um are all the UM fans on the scout and rivals boards proclaiming RRod "truly a michigan man" before he coaches a down of football at um. actually i'd say it's worse because those people are treating the term like a marketing slogan instead of what it should really mean to you.

rrod has done nothing thus far to show that he's a loser. and he surely has done nothing whatsoever to show that he's a Michigan Man - unless simply working for Michigan makes you one. In which case Steve Fisher and Gary Moeller, et al have earned it and it truly is just a marketing slogan

However, making fun of "Tress" when your coach is labeled "dickrod" across the football blogosphere...

My point is, let's drop the assaults on the nicknames. No one wins that one.

By the way, he is properly known as "Lord Darth Vada." We've been through this already.

Also, let's put to rest the false argument that Michigan fans don't hang out on OSU blogs for the sheer purpose of causing trouble. I was perusing Buckeye commentary a few days ago reading their take on Boren and what seemed like half of MGOBlog was there stirring up poop. Geez, get over it already.

Do you all realize how boring this place gets when you don't have OSU fans to battle? Look at this thread. SiC and his SiCophants haven't had this much fun in a long time.

sru,certainly we have idiot fans who say stupid things other places. we just don't have any of them here, right? (answer carefully now).

the "michigan man" thing is a bit misunderstood. Bo went to miami. Moeller to tosu (flippin' team captain). lloyd to northern. les miles would have been the first former player to be coach since maybe bennie oosterbaan.

Bo's comment, as uttered, referred to someone who was committed to Michigan. not a coach on his way to ASU. it also has come to denote a person who is tied into our culture/self personna.

every institution has its own "character". people associated w/ that institution either take to its culture or they end up not fitting in. some people assimilate more easily than others.

so far, a lot of R2's actions have struck a very positive chord w/ the faithful. and those things he's done that weren't well received, haven't been repeated.

as you may have caught from T9's comment in another thread about meeting him, the more fans that meet him/hear him, the more people are taken w/ him. he's learning as he goes, but he seems to get "it" and is trying to own our culture in his own way. we like him. folks are enthused. so far, so good.

will that hold up? maybe. can you really be surprised by this much enthusiasm over our first truly "new" coach in decades? you shouldn't be.

truth is, tosu fans haven't see a lot of loud or boisterous enthusiasm out of michigan fans for a long while. and all this new "rah-rah" is new to you, too.

careful- it may stick and you could have to get used to it. wouldn't that be ironic?

"Well Vada, I feel you are a complete @sshole for putting words in my mouth and then railing me for it."

You feel I (and every Michigan fan) are complete @ssholes just because we're Michigan fans. Of course, some of us are more willing to fight back against tools like you, but don't try to fool anyone with the "I'm just trying to have a debate" crap. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.

"just as bad as osu fans calling rrod a loser before he coaches a down of football at um are all the UM fans on the scout and rivals boards proclaiming RRod "truly a michigan man" before he coaches a down of football at um. "

So, lemme get this straight: Just as bad as you Suckeye fans coming here and ripping RRod to shreds are all of the U-M fans coming to the support of THEIR coach on a U-M discussion board? Ooooooookay.

I demand all of you U-M fans take off the maize-and-blue colored glasses and debate this subjectively without any blind support (which is what part of being a FAN is).

Meanwhile, Sru and I will continue to take potshots at RRod and the U-M program in general. Not because we think it adds value - just because we feel like being @ssholes (with my drinking buddy, drulz).

"By the way, he is properly known as "Lord Darth Vada." We've been through this already."

See? Thought I still hate him, at least Whets can still be (somewhat) entertaining. (And I'm going to hell for saying that now.)

"I was perusing Buckeye commentary a few days ago reading their take on Boren and what seemed like half of MGOBlog was there stirring up poop."

This is shameful if true. Man, I wish the internet was more widespread in the Cooper era.

I'm done for the day. Drulz - I expect a 1500-word entry on how RichRod's arrival in Ann Arbor will lead to the polar ice caps melting and the eventual downfall of civilization by tomorrow. And if Sru could mix in a few one-liners, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

face it- i'm capable of anything. maybe that's why i like R2 so much already?

and there is a wierd but subtle sort of undercurrent running through a lot of my tosu friends dialogue these days. they watched the fiesta bowl. they project that sort of performance by another team in a slightly different shade of blue & yellow. they don't really like what they see.

the better grounded fans treat it like a storm on the horizon- something to prepare for but inevitable nonetheless.

the less well hinged tend to lash out at it in advance, as if pissing & moaning about it could change its coming.

akin to michigan fans bitching about mike debord's play calling. it didn't work but it seemed to make you feel better, results be damned.

...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I think I found out where my mojo went. Seriously, reading that was like an out-of-body experience. Creepy. Damn good writing though, if i do say so myself.

ok, so, now that this has become the osurulz v vadatripp v SiC v whetstone (i don't know how many band/ensemble competitions i had in that auditorium) v an occasional josh 1st annual mudsling orgy, lets talk about something practical... that chick from the cedar fest pic, are there any front shots, what type of breast were they? consistancy? softness? does one prefer soft over fullness, what does Catie or T9 have to say about this? are they pleased with their endowment? these are all more important issues than predicting the out come of a season that is still far off. what was tressel's first year like, what was bo's first year like? what was carrol's first year like? we aren't going to know until it happens and i just might not be pretty, but that isn't the point. it's a new direction and right now we just have to sit and wait. and you guys bickering is like listening to wosu on the radio...

*disclaimer: if retaliation is to insue from the breast comments whetstone dared me to do it...

"that chick from the cedar fest pic, are there any front shots, what type of breast were they? consistancy? softness? does one prefer soft over fullness, what does Catie or T9 have to say about this? are they pleased with their endowment? "

Catie doesn't care what that chicks breasts look like, feel like etc........although from the back shot my guess would be small and perky. Mine are not open to discussion, but nice try!

Blaming it on Whets......GoW, you should have picked Sru to blame it on, that would have been more believable!

Now, as to RR's first season, my expectation is mixed. I think that we could see some good stuff, I also think that HUGE transitions such as this often take a little time for adjustment. My hope is to not lose our bowl appearance record. So a winning season with a bowl appearance would make me very happy, anything less could be painful anything more is icing on the cake. You are correct, there is no point in belaboring this issue, we need to be still and hope for the best.

Oh, and all Michigan haters know it is only a matter of time before Michigan becomes a force to reckon with once again. Although, it is obvious by the Michigan haters on this site that they can't admit that and find great pleasure in running their mouths and watching us get all riled up. I learned at a young age, if you ignore them, they will go away.

However, maybe we should discuss something other than breasts.......I am fairly certain that no discussion would ensue about male endowment! ;o)

1 day until the Derby. Even though I'm a northerner, the atmosphere in Louisville has sucked me in. Mint juleps for everybody.

Put the money on Pyro, people.

whetstonebuck,

I'm a fan of bloggers who post the most well-played and best said posts on a forum. I enjoy it when Michigan fans keep their comments above the "F*CK (insert school name here)" level. I'm not saying you or every tOSU fan on this site does that, but a large number do. And I don't deny some Michigan fans do that elsewhere. Just not any on this site.

I'd also like to add that I'm a giant fan of bloggers who enjoy jumping on their rival's fansites to look for ways to push buttons. That's why I'm a fan of you too.

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