Then lets let Keenum start a few more times to prove that correct. Right now we know Schaub and Yates aren't, but Keenum has yet to absolutely prove that point either way.

I don't disagree. But you could say that about any backup or PS guy or off the street guy. He's not special just because he is a local kid or doing it for our team. The odds are stacked well against him, and while I want him to be successful because I want the team to win, I'm not drinking the koolaid about a short UDFA QB from a gimmick offense and ready to hail him as the face of the franchise after one game like some people are around here.

"If Schaub gets sacked four times in the fourth quarter while only getting one first down, irregardless of the RB situation, in a one point loss where the defense allowed only 17 points... he would be crucified."

..Is a specious argument.

Total fallacy to believe Schaub would have been within one point and even have a chance at a game winning drive.

Anyone that believes that did not pay enough attention during the Rams game.

"If Schaub gets sacked four times in the fourth quarter while only getting one first down, irregardless of the RB situation, in a one point loss where the defense allowed only 17 points... he would be crucified."

..Is a specious argument.

Total fallacy to believe Schaub would have been within one point and even have a chance at a game winning drive.

Anyone that believes that did not pay enough attention during the Rams game.

TJ

You must have missed the end of the only two victories the Texans have this year. Pretty sure that was Schaub leading two end of game scoring drives for the win.

Technically he was down more than one point in both games, so the explicit "one point" in your straw man argument still has validity, even if the overall tone of your post holds no merit.

AND - and here's the big one - we're right up against the salary cap and will be for the next few years.

Keeping Kubiak after 2010 was a grave, massive mistake that has backed this team into a corner.

First I'll say I was behind the get rid of Kubiak after 2010...

Second, I disagree. We'll be up against the cap next season, but 2015 the cap will finally go up. The players got screwed on the CBA, especially where the cap is concerned. The Texans made an assumption, they gambled & it bit them in the butt.

But we're up against the cap because we've got good players & they're being paid accordingly. We'll be up against the cap next season, because we've got a few more contracts due.

& I don't care what anybody says, $10M a year for a starting QB is a good deal. Prior to 2013 Matt Schaub was easily comparable to Flacco, Ryan, & Romo, all of which got $100M (~ $16-$20M/yr) deals & if you're objective about it, you'll admit Matt has looked healthier & more mobile than he has in years.

Matt Schaub hasn't performed to expectation, Brown hasn't played up to expectation, Antonio & Jjo hasn't played up to expectations, Wade hasn't played up to his contract, & while the Texans' plans for RT & LG looked promising in the preseason, neither panned out. OLB... a couple more gambles that didn't pan out.

2011 & 2012 were Kubiak's best years as a coach... both years presented challenges that should have kept us out of the play-offs, but we found a way to win, get in, & win... so what it was the Bengals (who were in the same situation we were in), you play who's on your schedule.

This year, he's woefully underperformed, there's no reason we shouldn't have looked as good as the Broncos but while they are 6-1, we're 2-5 (with a 5 game losing streak) & have underperformed on both sides of the ball.

But, he's got 9 games to make it right. & as bleak & grim as it looks, we've got the talent & I believe the coaching to make something special happen. All we've got to do is make the play-offs, then it's a whole new season.

If Schaub gets sacked four times in the fourth quarter while only getting one first down, irregardless of the RB situation, in a one point loss where the defense allowed only 17 points... he would be crucified.

That is not true. He'd just have his jersey burned at the stake with him in it.

Regarding TJ a couple years ago, there were plenty of us that never really thought he had what it took. He did a good job of not throwing int.'s, by not even trying to pass downfield much, until the Ravens game where he finally had to....and we all saw what happened. We were proud of what a 3rd stringer managed to do, but very few actually wanted TJ over Schaub.

Keenum, on the other hand....look, it's like the TD pass to DeAndre last Sunday; dude has an arm, has the guts to use it, AND has some SERIOUS ability to just drop that sucker right in a WR's hands on the long over-the-shoulder throws. We saw it in the preseason & we saw it last Sunday. Throwing that kind of pass that well is something I've never really seen a QB do (with any consistency) who wasn't a successful starter. That pass is a hallmark for superstar QB, & I've seen him do it too many times in the NFL already. Yeah, he could still turn out to suck, but he's got "I'm a leader; gimme the damn ball, coach!" written all over 'im right now.

If Schaub gets sacked four times in the fourth quarter while only getting one first down, irregardless of the RB situation, in a one point loss where the defense allowed only 17 points... he would be crucified.

& rightfully so. This "system" has been tweaked & customized for him from play selection to personnel selection. They threw in routes, protections, & scheme in 4 days for Keenum.... apples & oranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman

Keenum does it and he is hailed as having an amazing game and crowned the franchise QB of the future. Lots of leniency being given to Case with the RB injuries, the KC crowd, the KC defense being able to go off on the passing game, etc.

In the end it was still a loss, with multiple opportunities in a close game that were not realized.....

All good points & I agree whole heartedly. We're overreating to what we saw. Plenty of opportunity for Case to do something amazing, put this team on his shoulders & will us to victory the way Russell Wilson, RG3, & Andrew Luck did as rookies & Kaepernick did as a first time starter.

Didn't happen, but what I saw was a guy who could easily replace Schaub as Kubiak's next paper tiger. As long as we've got a dominant run game & a dominant defense around him.... we're a contender.

The only problem is if he can't take care of the ball (ala Schaub2013) he's going to make it difficult for this team to realize it's potential. & fumbling twice a game isn't much different than throwing INTs... fumbling inside the 10, recovered by the other team with 1:42 left in the game & no timeouts is no different than a pick 6; only looks different on the score board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman

I remember when everyone here thought that TJ was going to push Schaub for the starting job last year. Now it's all about Case. The franchise QB for the Texans is not on this roster, we just want to believe he is so that we can move away from Schaub. That, and the Cougar homerism. IMHO, none of our three current QB's will be the starting QB next season.

I remember when the team talked about Tj's Aura.

& after watching Keenum play in a real game, I can get on board with the theory that the team laid down on Schaub. They thought they had something in Tj, then they're watching Keenum make plays against our 1st team defense in practice... then they get chastised every time Schaub scores 6+1 for the other team.....

Total fallacy to believe Schaub would have been within one point and even have a chance at a game winning drive.

Anyone that believes that did not pay enough attention during the Rams game.

TJ

Or anyone believing that didn't watch the Seattle game. Schaub dismantled the best secondary in the NFL outside the Texans. From within the system. Case played streetball against the 3rd best secondary & won. After last Sunday though, no one is going to be sleeping on Case Keenum.

To me this is a six in one hand & half a dozen in the other situation. Both guys are going to need this team to step up in a big way if we're going to get to where we want to go. The second year upstart has the same odds of doing it as the 10 year vet (a 10 year vet that has played very well in this system).

I've been saying all year, the perception of Matt Schaub was going to change... & it has. Could have been a hero, turned out to be a zero. Going forward, the same can still happen, for either..... this is a damn talented team. However, betting that Schaub will turn into that hero (after six years) is a sucker's bet.

I don't disagree. But you could say that about any backup or PS guy or off the street guy. He's not special just because he is a local kid or doing it for our team. The odds are stacked well against him, and while I want him to be successful because I want the team to win, I'm not drinking the koolaid about a short UDFA QB from a gimmick offense and ready to hail him as the face of the franchise after one game like some people are around here.

I get what you're saying. But if you saw Matt Barkley come in and play for Philly you saw what a 3rd string QB is supposed to look like. A steaming pile of dog $hit. Keenum looked like an actual QB in the NFL.

Not saying he is the answer either, however, really wish people would stop downplaying what everyone clearly saw last week.

People downplaying that sounds a lot like the Iraq'i guy who claimed there were no US troops in Iraq....

If Schaub gets sacked four times in the fourth quarter while only getting one first down, irregardless of the RB situation, in a one point loss where the defense allowed only 17 points... he would be crucified.

Keenum does it and he is hailed as having an amazing game and crowned the franchise QB of the future. Lots of leniency being given to Case with the RB injuries, the KC crowd, the KC defense being able to go off on the passing game, etc.

Schaub has been in the league since keenum was fresh out of middle school.

Also, it's the potential keenum showed. The playmaking ability that has people excited about his future. He did positive things that we have not seen around here out of a QB. No one is saying he can fail to read blitzes and make hot reads for the rest of his career and be considered successful.

If you step back and look at it objectively you'd understand why people like what case did.

If Schaub gets sacked four times in the fourth quarter while only getting one first down, irregardless of the RB situation, in a one point loss where the defense allowed only 17 points... he would be crucified.

Don't you think Schaub setting the dubious NFL record of four pick 6's in four games might have something to do with fan attitude toward him?

yeah, Keenum looked like a rookie at the end of the game. Perhaps the rest of the VETERANS on the team should have stepped up their game to make up for it. Newton should be ashamed to put on a Texans uniform. I blame him for some of those sacks as much as anyone else.

Keenum did not throw a pick at KC. I honestly do not believe Schaub would have gotten out of that game without throwing a pick, much less have a 110 QBR in the end.

There is no "moral victory" to me. They lost, in spite of one of their best games this season, to a better team. However, that does not mean we cannot analyze the performance in order to objectively reach a conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey

Schaub has been in the league since keenum was fresh out of middle school.

Also, it's the potential keenum showed. The playmaking ability that has people excited about his future. He did positive things that we have not seen around here out of a QB. No one is saying he can fail to read blitzes and make hot reads for the rest of his career and be considered successful.

If you step back and look at it objectively you'd understand why people like what case did.

Exactly. The kid showed composure and an obvious ability to extend plays that Schaub simply cannot make due to severe physical limitations. Give Case more experience - and maybe a line that can protect him when it really matters - and we have yet to see how high his ceiling can be.

Some folks seem to believe that Schaub can be the 2010-1011 version. But, he's not and will never be. His already bad immobility is getting worse, and now he seems mentally broken. At some point, we just have to admit what our eyes are seeing out there.

__________________"Football is only a diversion." ~ Houston Texans, Inc.

I get what you're saying. But if you saw Matt Barkley come in and play for Philly you saw what a 3rd string QB is supposed to look like. A steaming pile of dog $hit. Keenum looked like an actual QB in the NFL.

Anybody watch Mike Glennon lead the Bucs to a "We really need to find a QB" loss?

That's what I consider an expected performance from a 3rd string QB, who had a lot of the same issues against him as Keenum did. #3 total defense, top 10 against the pass & the run. The 6'7" QB from NCState threw the ball 41 times for 275 yards, 5.4 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 0 INTs & really his game could have been a lot better if his receivers didn't drop a ton of catchable balls.

Glennon did nothing to to lose that game for the Bucs...... just didn't win it. Nobody is looking at Glennon thinking they've got their future QB, even though he was poised, played well within their system, bought time, made plays, etc.. etc.. etc...

Good, not great.

Keenum's stats were more impressive. 6 plays of 25+ yards, 10.8 ypa, 110.6 rating versus a comparable defense (Glennon had an 80.1 passer rating against the Panthers). But, imo (& that's all it is, my opinion) the two fumbles turn an otherwise excellent performance into a "meh" performance. Especially when one effectively ended the game.

Yup, one "Awe sht" erases a whole bunch of "Atta boys"

Granted, Keenum's performance points to hope. That was his first start, vs Glennon's 4th.

>You must have missed the end of the only two victories the Texans have this year. Pretty sure that was Schaub leading two end of game scoring drives for the win.

So you are putting forth the contention that Matt Schaub, in his current mental state, with no Daniels, no Foster (for most of the game),
Tate with broken ribs, no Manning, and no Cushing in the 4th -- would
have been in the game enough to rally on to victory in the final drive?

Phil Simms heard about the University of Houston quarterback week after week after week. Jim Nantz just wouldn't let it go.

This was during the 2011 college football season when Case Keenum took advantage of a sixth year of eligibility to shatter the NCAA record book. Simms received enthusiastic weekly updates on Keenum from Nantz — whether he wanted to or not.

"I'd tell him how Case was 38 of 45," Nantz laughs.

"No, it was more like 48 of 53 every week," Simms breaks in, noting Keenum's often obscenely good numbers with the Cougars. "So I ask Jim, 'How tall is this Keenum?' And he's like, '6-4, 6-5.' I don't think so."

"I was just trying to pump up the hometown guy a little bit," Nantz says.

It almost sounds like Nantz is getting Simms to come around on Keenum. This is what happens when your belief is absolute.

Keenum, of course, actually measures in at around 6-feet. His lack of "quarterback height" helped guarantee that every NFL team would stubbornly, stupidly pass on him in the 2012 Draft. Now that Keenum's made an NFL start — with Simms and Nantz calling the game for CBS in Kansas City — no one's really focusing on how tall the Houston Texans' new quarterback stands. Not with Keenum completing six passes of more than 25 yards and nearly leading the 2-5 Texans to a road upset of the NFL's only undefeated team.

"He plays like he's 6-5," Nantz says.

This earns another eye roll from Simms. When you're part of a broadcast team, you spend a lot of time together. The former New York Giants quarterback and the TV pro's pro travel to the city of their Sunday game assignment on Friday and work in close quarters for much of the next three days. That includes plenty of Saturday production meetings that are often taken over by college football happenings.

And specifically, Nantz's University of Houston love.

The 54-year-old Nantz is as proud of a UH graduate as you'll ever find. Simms has spent years hearing about the Cougars. That became more than apparent during CultureMap's visit to the CBS broadcast booth in Kansas City.

"Did you tell him how crazy you got during the BYU game?" Simms asks, referencing Houston's 47-46 loss to Brigham Young University last Saturday, one that had Nantz twisting in his seat.

Nantz calls it "fortuitous" that he happened to call Keenum's first NFL game. Simms might use another word. After years of hearing about Keenum — and somewhat scoffing — there the quarterback was walking into a production meeting with CBS's No. 1 NFL TV team.

"How impressive was he?" Nantz asks Simms of the meeting, which saw a relaxed Keenum easily command the attention of grizzled TV vets — producers and production people who've seen it all.

"You could tell he'd done it before in college," Simms shoots back. "It's not his first rodeo. He comes across as confident though. I'll give you that."

Nantz calls it "fortuitous" that he happened to call Keenum's first NFL game. Simms might use another word.

It almost sounds like Nantz is getting Simms to come around on Keenum. This is what happens when your belief is absolute. And the evidence follows. Before Keenum threw his first pass in the NFL, Nantz saw him as a legitimate option. Like many UH devotees who actually watched Keenum play in college, Nantz knew the quarterback was anything but a smaller conference myth — which is largely the tack a resolutely doubting Houston media took.

i just love it how some posters dont want to give case keenum any rope or benefit of the doubt yet these same posters i bet gave mat schaub 7 years of patience but cant do the same for a kid despite all the factors against him in that game showed great potential, played well, and got the respect of chiefs players but cant get the same respect from his own fan base.

Schaub had six pro bowlers on offense last year and stunk up the joint yet it took him setting dubious records this year for most of the people to finally wake up.

Keenum goes on short notice with half the weapons schaub had last year and cant even get any leniency from some posters.

Very sad and very hypocritical.

MSR

To reiterate.....go back and watch Matt Barkley...who went to big time program and was drafted and was also a 3rd string QB....go back and watch how he diarrhea'ed his pants for the Eagles last week. THAT is what you EXPECT a 3rd stringer to bring.

Case Keenum was light years better than that and frankly light years better than Schaub, Yates and probably half the NFL with all the $hitty QB'ing going on this year but yeah.....keep telling us how he was average to below average.

I thought it was odd seeing Nantz & Simms calling the Texans vs Chiefs game as they usually are billed to do top games for cbs which would've been the Jets vs Pats that week. Apparently Nantz must have annoyed his producers into giving him the Houston game.

I find this thread rather odd. When opposing owners told Bob McNair he was 'on track', TT went into typical meltdown mode accusing him of being easily fooled. The old double-bluff from the other owners was never sniffed out by Boob.

Now, we have the exact same thing happening with KC players saying how great Keenum was, yet strangely, no one on TT thinks it's double-speak.

Dear me. This is getting difficult to follow...

__________________
"If Matt is on this team next year I wont be supporting the team ... cant support ignorance."
- ckhouston, 13.01.13

I find this thread rather odd. When opposing owners told Bob McNair he was 'on track', TT went into typical meltdown mode accusing him of being easily fooled. The old double-bluff from the other owners was never sniffed out by Boob.

Now, we have the exact same thing happening with KC players saying how great Keenum was, yet strangely, no one on TT thinks it's double-speak.

Dear me. This is getting difficult to follow...

Did you hurt your back reaching for that? LOL. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. First of all, Players actually play and can talk about the competition they play against and second this isn't people talking about a "team", they're talking about one singe player.. trust me if they wanted to sabotage us, they would speak highly of the NFL pick 6 record holder.. not the guy who just put up the highest passer rating against them. 3rd, owners are just like us, they just watch.

As far as what was said back then, I remember it.. I highly doubt the owners were so worried about Bob and his new team (led by Carr) where the other owners felt they had to "fool" him in some grand conspiracy agreement like the Texans were some growing threat to all their success. I mean there's 32 teams in the league, but they only wanted to keep the Texans down? That take didn't make sense then and it still doesn't now and neither does this one. Especially since KC isn't a divisional opponent and I highly doubt they expect to see us again this season, so why the need for the "double speak"?

I find this thread rather odd. When opposing owners told Bob McNair he was 'on track', TT went into typical meltdown mode accusing him of being easily fooled. The old double-bluff from the other owners was never sniffed out by Boob.

Now, we have the exact same thing happening with KC players saying how great Keenum was, yet strangely, no one on TT thinks it's double-speak.

Dear me. This is getting difficult to follow...

Yes, I'm sure the Chiefs were lulling Case into a false sense of confidence so that they'll have the upper hand on him when they play him again in 3 years.