Unless you're raiding in the top 500 ranked guilds in the world (and that's royal on my part, probably a lower number), you're still going to be able to outperform anyone that according to simcraft should do more than you. "No reason to gear a warrior", if you're truly that hardcore that everyone in your raid is as good as skillcapped and can ony be broken even on by someone of the same spec and gear, then you're probably pretty darn hardcore and should already be used to the fact that gear gets shoved towards the person playing the most OP or useful class at that point in time. So yeah, either A: DKs or Rets are able to do more damage than you, they will get gear because your entire team is beyond improving, or B: your team consists of humans, and you can still surpass them by being a better player, as any half-decent raidleader should realise that stacking gear on the FotM spec simply won't work unless you're Method.

any half-decent raidleader should realise that stacking gear on the FotM spec simply won't work unless you're Method.

Top 500 ranked guilds is a rather huge playing field and every other "semi hardcore progressing guild" with a large amount of time falls into that discription. And you forget that a superior player with a worse specc/class first has to overcome the gap to close up the FOTM class to play on par with an average player while that average player has a much easier time to improve (going from 90 to 95% is noticeable easier than going from 95 to 100%).

Ret might got the best buffs but you'll probably end up noticing the hunter changes due to their representation.

We got a little stronger post upgrades but so did the rest. Classes with buffs are up and we are down further the dps ladder now... Anyone felt the same?

Hope it is just one boss. Last week I did 160k on council and placed about 5th in my 25m raid group. Other warrior was 6th. This week I did closer to 180k post gear upgrade.. I'm 10th. Already discussed that we don't scale as well as what we were supposed to be back when they nerfed our execute by 25%.. But seeing it live in action is quite disturbing.

I really hope it's just one boss. Ferals and monks appear to be doing well. Our monk is really abusing ROR. . Topping single target meters

You know... I read the first page and I couldn't help but get the feeling here that the OP is arguing about warriors being so limited / weak against other classes and specs. Myself.. my main is an Arms Warrior. I see nothing wrong with my class except that I can't wield three swords at the same time....

Seriously though. The argument seems to be comparable to an argument that states apples are better tasting than oranges. The bottom line is they're two different things to be comparing. Warriors vs warlocks? Ability comparison side to side? Really? I have both classes at 90 and I like them both because they both are unique and offer completely different approaches and experiences to the game. If it comes out that my warrior is better than my lock in a specific tier or vice versa... then so be it. The same goes for my DK and my priest... it doesn't matter. Stop expecting similar output from two completely different classes; it will probably never happen. Pick a class you enjoy playing and play it - it's as simple as that.

I do have to say though that if you are in a guild that is pushing progression, playing a warlock(range)gives you a much better chance of securing a raid spot.

do any of the devs actually play a warrior? i don't mean casually, once or twice a month for a few hours. like hard core anal about everything crazy about every little detail of a warrior and all 3 specs?

I do have to say though that if you are in a guild that is pushing progression, playing a warlock(range)gives you a much better chance of securing a raid spot.

Sadly this is so true. Warriors are better off in 25man than 10man though (Banner is stronger in 25man and there are more defensive cooldowns to compensate for our survivability issues).

This content usually made me sit on the bench in favor of a rogue or a random range dps (10man) which made me fall behind in gear which automatically made me get benched even more (Personal drama: Loot tables too big => FIRST str weapon drop last week and that was with rolling 3-4 times per ID on bosses with weapons...) Why bring a warrior when you can pick something else and make the fight easier.

My advise is to find a 25m guild sooner than late my friend. I've heard your story a couple of times, from people applying to my guild. If you get a spot as a warrior in 10m, likely cuz you are tanking. Dps slots in 10m are limited.. Why take warrior ?

Originally Posted by meteo

Sadly this is so true. Warriors are better off in 25man than 10man though (Banner is stronger in 25man and there are more defensive cooldowns to compensate for our survivability issues).

This content usually made me sit on the bench in favor of a rogue or a random range dps (10man) which made me fall behind in gear which automatically made me get benched even more (Personal drama: Loot tables too big => FIRST str weapon drop last week and that was with rolling 3-4 times per ID on bosses with weapons...) Why bring a warrior when you can pick something else and make the fight easier.

A lot of good points here, but at the end of the day Single-Target damage is just too low - especially in a tier so biased in favor of Ranged. Why they would throw a bone to other melee classes that have suffered this tier so far, and not us - I just don't get it. Whatever data they are looking at does not mirror my experience at all.

I'm pretty much checked out mentally, watching guildies progress through the last few heroics putting up numbers I cannot. Far from last tier, when I was actually enjoying myself, I worked really hard to get to where I am in the game and I've never been this frustrated in 5 continuous years of raiding.

I'm not re-rolling per se, but I am developing a Balance Druid just in case I get the sense this experience could repeat next tier - a backup raiding toon if you will. That is what I'm taking from this experience, just be prepared in case the Class Balance team decides to lay an egg again.

A lot of good points here, but at the end of the day Single-Target damage is just too low - especially in a tier so biased in favor of Ranged. Why they would throw a bone to other melee classes that have suffered this tier so far, and not us - I just don't get it. Whatever data they are looking at does not mirror my experience at all.

I'm pretty much checked out mentally, watching guildies progress through the last few heroics putting up numbers I cannot. Far from last tier, when I was actually enjoying myself, I worked really hard to get to where I am in the game and I've never been this frustrated in 5 continuous years of raiding.

I'm not re-rolling per se, but I am developing a Balance Druid just in case I get the sense this experience could repeat next tier - a backup raiding toon if you will. That is what I'm taking from this experience, just be prepared in case the Class Balance team decides to lay an egg again.

We do good single target dps compared to the other classes. The difference is survivablilty and the ability to fluff numbers. IE on Horridon, you may be number one on the priority ads, number 1 on war god, and number 1 on horridon during the burn, but because you couldn't keep a dot on horridon the whole fight and multidot the insignificant ads, you end up being 10th. So the numbers don't tell the whole story for dps at first glance. My problem is that if we have the same numbers, we need the same survivability. If one goes down, the other must go up.

PS....locks are the exception. They can do more damage on the priority, more on the non-priority and take less damage.

My advise is to find a 25m guild sooner than late my friend. I've heard your story a couple of times, from people applying to my guild. If you get a spot as a warrior in 10m, likely cuz you are tanking. Dps slots in 10m are limited.. Why take warrior ?

There's a pretty big issue with finding a 25 as well and that's finding one that isn't about to go belly up. Even strong performing 25s (top 30-100 US 10+25 overall type guilds) are dying left and right these days in my experience, especially if they aren't on one of the big raiding servers. In the experience of some of my friends trying to find good homes after my last 25 died, if you aim for a semi-hardcore or better 25 (really, there's not much else - very few casual 25 guilds left these days), it might take several tries to find a healthy, stable guild that isn't in the process of dying.

I raided with a guild of the top 50-100 US (overall) type until the end of T14, a guild that had been at that sort of almost hardcore level since Vanilla, when it met it's end due to the struggle of recruiting quality players on a smaller medium pop server. Of the people that continued raiding when that guild broke up, many are on their 3rd or 4th 25 man since February. And even then, the ones that did find good homes really didn't find them until they went hardcore top 10-20 US or better type situations. It's hard to find spots, and the sort of struggle you experience (expense of multiple server/faction changes, the disappointment of finally getting settled into your new guild just to have it die, the experience of constantly being the new guy etc.) is enough to make a lot of people quit entirely.

I ended up (after a brief detour in a high end 25 that wasn't a good fit) going to a ~US100 10 man, where I have a pretty good/regular spot. The loot situation is pretty poor compared to 25s, and I was sat for 2 of 10 heroic progression fights so far (Horridon and Council), but otherwise it's pretty good. The biggest positive difference is in a good 10, almost everyone shows up for every raid, whereas in 25s in my experience, about a sixth of the roster were always apps and there were several misses every night. I think that has something to do with the close knit atmosphere - in 25s, a lot of people assume they can just take nights off and someone will fill in, whereas in a 10 there's often nobody but you for your job and people really depend on you.

It's sad, but 25s are dying out, in my experience and the experience of those around me at least.