1 <Day 9 Tuesday, 25th January 2000. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I have your clip which I obviously 3have not had time to read. Before we get into that, shall 4we, as proposed, just look ahead and consider what is 5going to be happening? We are going to have Professor van 6Pelt today, is that right? 7MR RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord, that right. 8MR IRVING: Yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that the transcript is clear, that is him 10being interposed in order to be called by the Defendants 11and cross-examined because he has commitments elsewhere. 12Is it expected he will be finished in a day? 13MR IRVING: I doubt it, my Lord. I think two days. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. So when will he resume? He cannot be 15here tomorrow, Mr Rampton, can he? 16MR RAMPTON: He can tomorrow but not Thursday. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we should get rid of him. 18MR RAMPTON: If he can be done in two days, so much the better; 19if he cannot, he can come back on Friday. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have to keep within reasonable bounds so 21I hope he will be finished within two days. 22MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's original estimate for him was three 23days. We asked what the estimate was. But, if it is two 24days, so much the better. If we have Friday a blank, as 25it were, then I shall continue cross-examining Mr Irving 26on Friday, I suppose.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 2MR RAMPTON: Then on Monday, Professor McDonald, and I do not 3know about Dr Fox, it may be him too. I do not know. 4That is in Mr Irving's hands. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot remember who Professor McDonald is. 6MR IRVING: My expert witness. 7MR RAMPTON: He is a social scientist, I think. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is he going to be, just so that you 9are communicating about timing? 10MR IRVING: I shall be submitting various documents to him with 11your Lordship's permission, my Lord, and it depends on 12whether Mr Rampton wishes to cross-examine him or not. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may not know the answer to that until he 14knows in more detail what he is going to say. 15MR RAMPTON: I have a pretty good idea what he is going to 16say. The answer is if I cross-examine him at all, it will 17be quite shortly, I expect. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: And then Fox? 19MR RAMPTON: I do not know about Mr Fox. That is Mr Irving's 20witness. 21MR IRVING: I expect Dr Fox will be half a day, my Lord, if 22that. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. 24MR RAMPTON: Then, my Lord, I hope I will be able to complete 25any outstanding issues arising out of Evans and the 26political scientists in the remainder of the four days of

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1that week. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 3MR RAMPTON: I would be disappointed if I do not. I would hope 4I would be quicker than that. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I would too. I think you have been 6through the most -- if I can use the word "laborious" 7without giving offence -- laborious bit. 8MR RAMPTON: No, not laborious, perhaps the most important 9issues anyway. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Distorting history on Hitler. 11MR RAMPTON: Distorting Hitler and Holocaust denial by means of 12Auschwitz denial. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: So at the end of those four days, will that 14complete your cross-examination? 15MR RAMPTON: Yes, it should do. As your Lordship knows, 16Reichskristallnacht is a bit fiddly. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite convoluted. 18MR RAMPTON: It is convoluted, exactly, so it may take a bit of 19time. Then, my Lord, we are now being speculative, in a 20sense, provisional, we would hope to start our evidence, 21excluding Professor van Pelt, on Monday, whatever it is of 22February, with possibly Professor Browning, possibly 23Dr Longerich, possibly Professor Evans, I do not know. 24Then I think perhaps the only political scientists we will 25call as a witness is Fulkhan, the German. But that is a 26little bit in the future.

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1 I have put question marks against Levin and 2Eatwell and also against the Russian witness Tarasov 3because, quite frankly, having regard to the witness 4statement of Mr Irving's witness, the journalist, Peter 5Miller, I do not think Mr Tarasov has anything to add at 6all. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will say again that I think in relation to 8the Moscow diaries some sort of accommodation might be 9possible. 10MR IRVING: My Lord, I do wish to make certain fundamental 11observations about the way the case is being conducted so 12far. I do not know if this is the appropriate moment. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think now is probably the moment for you to 14do that, unless you would rather reserve it for later? 15MR IRVING: It is brief but to the point, my Lord. I am the 16Claimant in this action. This is my action, and I spent 17yesterday evening indulging in a little bit of light 18reading in the Civil Procedure Rules and my eye alighted 19on Lord Woolf's wise words towards the beginning of the 20introduction to the Rules which states that all steps have 21to be taken to ensure complete equity between the parties. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. That is my major function. 23MR IRVING: It is a major departure from the old system. He 24said, he identified a range of defects in the existing 25civil justice system, the third of which was that it was 26too unequal in that there was a lack of equality between