I didn't think to take pics. Sorry about that. Visually it was unremarkable. It looked like Peter's dough after 7 days, spotting and all.

Normally I would have given it a shot to see the end result, even if I didn't observe a rise. It was just the smell that was so strong I couldn't inhale up close without gagging.

One data point that I didn't provide earlier was that on Day 5, I took one of the dough balls out of the fridge (recall I initially made three) and made a pie out of it. Really just to see if the spotting was indeed harmless. That dough had a slightly "whole wheat" aroma to it. It had a decent oven rise (which tells me I did not forget the yeast), but the end result tasted odd. It tasted exactly as it smelled - like whole wheat. I gave my son a slice, and he said it tasted "weird". At the time I thought it just might need those extra few days fermentation.

But the "whole wheat" smell was simply overpowering today. I knew exactly what it was going to taste like after being in the oven...

Peter,I made the 5 dough balls today. Since it was cold here last night, I left my filtered water in the jugs in my van until I went to market. I thought the water would stay colder outside. I mixed the water, flour, and salt, and then added the olive oil. After that was mixed I added the IDY last and mixed until I thought it was dispersed. Even after I thought the dough was throughly mixed the dough still looked a little ragged, but after forming the balls it looked okay. Since it was colder at the market today the other ingredients were lower in temperature and also my finished dough temperature.. My temperatures were:

I had to use my heavy duty drill to get a hole in the container. Just joking, I had to have that there to hang some Christmas decorations. I drilled the lid with a 1/16" bit. I did use other containers that were bigger than I had said before. I used Rubbermaid 6.2 cup containers.I have one question to ask. I had mixed the test dough first and put the containers in the bottom of the deli case. I then mixed my other dough and did other things there. I was at market about 4 and a half hours. I looked at the container before I left and there looked like condensation on the lids. Is that normal?Norma

Peter,I used the last dough ball today, that I had taken home last week to freeze. This was the experimental dough ball that I didnít use last week. I really didnít expect to be able to do anything with it, but thought I would try this week. I removed it out of the freezer this morning and let it in my deli case until this afternoon. I then left it sit on the counter until it was almost unfrozen. You could still feel some ice crystals in the dough. I proceeded to open the dough. I was pleasantly surprised that this dough ball performed better than the dough did last week. I didnít feel any of the honeycomb effect and the dough didnít tear. The dough did feel sticky and I just dusted with flour. I didnít notice any strong smell from the dough, either. I still donít understand how this dough performed better than last week. How can this dough that I thought was over fermented last week, get better this week? The taste of the crust was outstanding to me. I tore a piece of the rim off on the last picture to see how the inside of the crust looked. There were many small bubbles inside.These are the pictures I took today.Norma

There are certain phenomena that are difficult to explain. In your case, the factors that might have been involved include the condition of the dough ball at the time it was frozen (e.g., gassy vs. degassed), how long the dough ball was frozen and at what temperature, how long the dough ball was defrosted, and how long the dough ball was allowed to warm up before shaping. If the dough ball was cooler than the other dough balls when you decided to open it up, maybe that was responsible for the improved handling and reduced webbing.

Peter,I can understand how many circumstances can effect the dough. I can see this weekly in the same dough I make. As the day continues the same dough has many different characteristics. I did bring the 8 day fermentation dough home after market last week and put the dough into my freezer. The dough ball from last week that I used this Tuesday was almost at the point of being completely defrosted, with some ice crystals. My freezer is a manual defrost and in my shed separate from my home and from what I have read about them, I donít know if that makes a difference in how the dough freezes or not.

I never have taken a reading of the temperature in my home freezer. I know things stay rock solid hard and last for a longer period than my combination refrigerator freezer. Since there are no defrost cycles, the food just stays the same.I will keep on noting different changes I see and what happens.Thank you,Norma

When I went to market today I must have inadvertently left the deli case door open a little Tuesday night. The temperature in the deli case was 41 degrees F. I measured the dough with a tape measure and it looks like the dough is any where between 1 and 1/16 inch to 1 and 1/8 inch. I had a hard time trying to measure because I only had a metal tape measure and the bowl got in the way. I donít know how much this will effect the 8 day fermentation. Here is how the dough looked today. I noticed what looked like dark specks in the dough. I will proceed Tuesday and see what happens.Norma

At 1 1/16", the expansion would be 1.06253 = 1.20, or an increase of about 20%; at 1 1/8", the expansion would be 1.1253 = 1.42, or an increase of about 42%. I checked some poppy seed numbers on an 8-day dough that I made a while back and your numbers look similar to mine. Did you note when the dough balls went into your deli case?

Peter,Yes, I did note when the dough balls went into the deli case. The time was 11:58 a.m. Do I open the dough balls around the same time Tuesday? The difference between 20% and 42% sounds like a lot. I will measure the distance between the poppy seeds on Tuesday.Norma

I think you are OK but I will await your next number. We can then do a new calculation to see where we stand. Or you can do your own calculations along the way. All you need is a standard calculator. As an example, 1.1253 is 1.125 x 1.125 x 1.125.

In my last post, I said that I made an 8-day dough. I noticed after I posted that it was actually a 10-day dough. The poppy seeds after 10 days were spaced by 1.25", which represented a doubling of the dough.

Peter,I was reading http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482 reply 33 and you were explaining how to determine the thickness factor and calculate. I have copied out that page and bookmarked it for future reference.As I have said before in other posts, I am not good at math. I only know basic math and have been trying to figure how when I told you about the poppy seed spacing of 11/16" and 11/8", how do you figure the expansion to be 1.0625 and 1.125? Where do those numbers come from?I do understand how you are telling me to use a standard calculator and take 1.125 times factor of 3. I guess. For someone like me that never has taken algebra in high school this sounds confusing to me. If you have time to explain how I would do this, I will try.Thanks,Norma

I only know basic math and have been trying to figure how when I told you about the poppy seed spacing of 11/16" and 11/8", how do you figure the expansion to be 1.0625 and 1.125? Where do those numbers come from?

Norma,

If you divide the number 1 by the number 16 on your calculator, you will get 1/16 = 0.0625. To that, if you add 1, you will get 1.0625. Similarly, if you divide the number 1 by the number 8 on your calculator, you will get 1/8 = 0.125. To that, if you add 1, you will get 1.125. I just converted the fractions to decimal form and added 1 to them.

Peter,Here is what the dough balls looked like today. There are still dark specks in the dough. 3 dough balls have bubbles, the one doesn't. The dough ball in the plastic bag doesn't have any big bubbles. I didn't measure the distance between the poppy seeds. I will try to measure the one without the bubble tomorrow. The temperature of the deli case was 39 degrees F.Norma

Peter,Using the 8 days fermentation went okay, today. The first dough ball I let warm up on the counter until the temperature reached 55 degrees F. When opening the dough I noticed some thin spots. The next picture is the rim on the first pizza, then the finished pizza. On the second dough ball, I decided to only let dough temperature on the counter rise to 48 degrees F, because I thought maybe it wouldnít get thin spots. That worked okay. The next picture is of the second dough coming out of the bowl, then finished pizza. Finally the rim of the second pizza.The third and fourth dough balls were also left on the counter until they reached 48 degrees F. I didnít notice any thin spots when the dough was 48 degrees F. The second, third and fourth dough all handled well. I like the light and airy rim the 8 day fermentation gave me. I think all the pizza crusts tasted great. I didnít have time to open the fifth dough ball.The measurement I got on the dough ball with no bubbles was 1 5/16. I calculated that to be 0.20 or 60%. Is that right? Measuring the dough ball in the container was difficult. What do you use to measure your poppy seeds?I did still notice the black specks in the dough, but it didnít seem to affect the dough. In conclusion, I enjoyed doing this experiment and learning more about different fermentation times and also how to handle dough so it can be used.Norma

Thank you for conducting the experiment and posting your results. To the best of my knowledge, you are the first member to use the principles discussed in this thread to try to achieve long dough lives outside of a home setting setting and to report on your results. I can envision some possible changes to what you did to perhaps improve your results, but I wondered whether you saw any merit, beyond increasing your knowledge on the subject, to using the principles on a more regular basis in your commercial operations. As you perhaps learned, there are some risks in attempting long dough ball lives. I think your pizzas look good and you noted the improved crust flavors, but perhaps that is not enough to warrant using the basic dough life-prolonging methods on a wider scale in your commercial operation. If your customers note no differences, then it might not make sense to take on increased risk to coax more flavor out of your crusts.

With respect to your question on how I measure the spacing between poppy seeds, I use a small wooden ruler that I rest on the top of my storage container. I just line up the markings with the poppy seed spacing and note the value of the spacing. That way, I don't have to actually put a ruler or other measuring device (like a locking tape such as you used) on the dough itself. However, if I didn't use that method, I would use the method you used. FYI, if the final spacing of the poppy seeds was 1 5/16", the way you calculate the dough expansion is to first convert 5/16" to a decimal value of 0.3125, add "1" to that to get 1.3125, and cube that value (1.3125 x 1.3125 x 1.3125) to get 2.26. That is a bit more than a doubling of the volume of the dough. That is a good result in terms of dough expansion, especially since I had some concern that your deli case runs a bit warmer than a typical commercial cooler, which typically runs about 5-7 degrees F cooler than your deli case (at around 40 degrees F). On the basis of your poppy seed spacing, if I had to guess I think you might have been able to get another day or two out of your dough balls, albeit with some likely increase in the extensibility due to the increased fermentation time and the effects of the enzymes on the gluten structure.

Peter,Thank you for going over my results and helping me with this experiment. I did enjoy the improved flavor of the crust. In the new year I would like to experiment more on getting increased flavor in the crust. With the new year coming in our area in Pa. will be seeing a 30% rate increase in our monthly bills. My deli case will not hold all the dough I need for the week. I now turn off my pizza prep refrigerator until I make my dough on Monday. I would like to wait until I see how much my electric bill goes up at market. All my appliances are turned off during the week, expect my deli case. If you have time in the new year to help me with another experiment, I would greatly appreciate it. Stand holders that I have given samples to of the longer fermented dough have all commented they like the crust flavor. At least I have people that can give me feedback. They all say they like all my pizza, so I guess they are biased.Yes, I can see the risks of attempting longer fermentation in the lives of dough balls. Especially since I have many to deal with many and not just the five and also when the weather is warmer. I want to keep on experimenting with my dough, but at this time donít know what to do. Would you suggest using a higher hydration or increased IDY amount for my Lehmann dough to give me better results? I have increased my oven 25 degrees F to 550 degrees F, now. I would like to just try my one day fermentation to see if I can get any better results. I would use a test dough first. Thank you for telling me what kind of ruler you used for the poppy seed trick and explaining how to calculate, again.I could see when I when I went to open the first dough how it was having some problems. That is why I didnít let the dough temperature sitting on the counter to get above 48 degrees F. With the shorter time on the counter the dough seemed to open okay. I agree my dough would not have lasted much longer.Thanks again,Norma

Unless you use a natural starter that is properly maintained or you use a very long cold fermentation such as described in this thread, it is difficult to get really good crust flavors using a basic recipe such as the Lehmann recipe in the usual manner. Another possibility is to convert the Lehmann recipe to a preferment format in which the preferment works most of the day at room temperature and you do the final mix in the evening to make a dough that then goes into the cooler for use the over a period of one or more days. Unless there is a way of combining a preferment and a very long cold fermentation as described in this thread, that is a topic that would best be the subject of a new thread.

If you would like to stay with the protocol of your last experiment but try to improve upon it, that is also an option.

Peter,Thank you for saying you would help me with another way to get a better tasting crust.I have been thinking about what I would like to try next. I think I would like to try a preferment using a poolish and try that on test dough balls. In the new year I will post under another thread asking for advise from you and other members on what procedures I should try.Thanks,Norma

Peter,Since I had the one dough ball left from last week, I just kept it in the deli case to see what would happen to it until today. I opened the plastic bag and although the dough didnít smell bad, it was really gray. On these pictures you canít really see how gray it was. It had a lot of dark spots. I took the dough right out of the deli case and proceeded to open it. Although the dough was hard to open, it didnít have webbing. I couldnít get into a perfect round shape. I dressed the dough and baked the pie. The taste of this dough was better than last week. The crust was crispy. This dough had 16 days fermentation. I had thought that the dough was almost bad last week, but I guess it wasnít. Steve (Ev) came when we removed the pie from the oven and he tasted the pie, too. He could see I couldnít get a round pie. I showed him the pictures I had taken of the dough before I opened it and how gray it looked.Norma

The dough was used today, that was frozen since this last experiment. I had taken it to market last week and it defrosted in the pizza prep fridge. I didn't have time to use it last Tueday. It was then frozen again, last Tuesday. The dough went to market again, today.

The dough didn't give me any trouble in opening it. The pizza using this dough tasted great.

I guess this will remain a mystery how this dough was abused and still worked out well. Maybe it is in using a freezer that doesn't defrost itself. Probably will never figure that out. I just wanted to see what would happen with this dough.

The one picture was taken after opening the dough. It was just put on the pizza pans to take a picture. The other picture is of the finished pizza.