----------------------------------------------------------------------Bugs Fixed:----------------------------------------------------------------------- Tournament screens were not updated properly- Error when adding or editing database players- Error when renaming columns on the Stats tab- "r" formula variable (representing a player's rank) was set to the player's position (inverse of rank)- Changed references to "Options tab" to "Game tab" in language files

Wow, I was not that interested in the whole multiple monitor thing because I a monitor splitter and I kinda liked having the tourney display on my laptop while it was also sent to monitors (plus, still not sure how this function will work with a monitor splitter).

But, on my dual monitor PC, this new beta ROCKS.

That new "control" tab is wonderful!

I ran a mock tourney with about 16 people and had no problems under brief review.

At first it was odd because I couldn't figure out how to shut down the tourney screen, until I accidently figured out that the "close/minimize" buttons appear when you hover over them.

Only problem I had - and I am not certain it isn't a problem on my own settings, but I don't think so, is that after the tourney was over my post-tourney screen did not display. It just kinda showed the main tourney screen with a "game over" message where the blinds usually are.

I have used this same screen set with my usual tourney in 2.4.3 and the post-tourney screen set appears. Only difference is that I finished this tourney during level 1 (just busted everyone out in the first round) and maybe that threw something off because I have a screen set to use for each of the first 4 rounds.

One suggestion is that:

On the control tab it would be nice if in the screen control section you could choose "player ranking page" as one of the screens to display.

If I choose the "player rankings" from the top set of buttons on the main settings screen then the settings screen goes away. I can bring it back of course, but it might be nice to display the player rankings without loosing the settings screen.

I know that I can view rankings myself by just going to the "Players" tab, but the one problem I have there is that:

My default tourney has all my players added to the tourney by default - I then buy-in the players that actually come. I use this as a littel time saver. Maybe I shouldn't do this, but it does help speed things up (don't have to add a person to the tourney before I buy them in).

Anyway, since I have a list of people in the players tab that haven't bought in (and won't because they didn't show up), then they appear as extra people in the list and it makes it harder to view the rankings.

Anyway, this new version is awesome and I didn't have any glitches in my one brief test.

On the Preferences tab, in the Miscellaneous section, last item, uncheck "Auto close settings dialog". This is checked by default. When this is not checked, the main page buttons at the top of the Settings dialog change to the designated screen but do not close the Settings dialog. This is why I did not add the built-in screens to the list of screens in the "Screen" section.

Documentation would help, I'm sure.

About the screen not changing after the tournament was over: are you sure the screen wasn't locked? This might have happened inadvertently if you changed screens manually while running the tournament. With the default layout, main screen displays "GAME OVER" in place of the blinds when the tournament is over, so if the screen was locked on this screen, that's what you'll see...

Pretty sure my mock tourney not showing the post-tourney screen is a screen set issue and not a V2.5 issue. Screen was not locked, but I tested a tourney and moved past my rebuy period (to round 5) and then busted people out and it went to the "post game" screen set as it is supposed to.

I might be able to figure that out.with my screen sets I have, in following order:

So, my first mock tourney seemed to be stuck in the Round 1 mode since that is when I finished the tourney. It isn't stuck in default because then it would be rotating with the player ranking screen. I would think that since post-tourney comes before round 1 in the order that it would first see the "after game" state and go to that screen, but somehow the "round 1" is a priority. Might be some other conditions I have set. But again, I don't think it is a V2.5 issue.

Thanks, this version really kicks TD up a notch. That control tab is really awesome. And unchecking that preferences box made it do what I wanted as you say.

Status: Gamescreen displayed on laptopClick on "Move to extended screen"; nothing happens and game screen is gone. Not on laptop, not on extended?!Click on "Move to Main"; gamescreen displayed on laptop again.Click on "Move to extended"; gamescreen is displayed on external screen.

So extended is only displayed when i switch back and forth between Home and extended once.From here on it keeps on working okay. It's just the first extended activation where i have to switch twice before extended is displayed.

----------- Strange template behaviour ----------I'll type it in exact the same step by step like i did.

1. load tournament TEST-A.2. Create rules TEST3. Save Rules and Tournament.4. Create Tournament TEST-B5. Load rules TEST6. Change Rules TEST7. Save Rules TEST8. Load tourney TEST-A* Then in rules the text is not displaying as last saved? The rules displayed are like before step 6 (the last change and save)? But i would expect the rules must have changed because both tourney's use the same RULES file that was changed and saved. So i'll force a load template....9. Load rules TEST* And now changes since last save are displayed correctly.

This same behaviour is also in prizes (and maybe also in layout templates, but not tested). Saved changes in prizes templates do not show when other tournament is opened that uses the same prizes template. Only after a forced template load it shows that last correct saved version.

In short: Change a prize-template and save. Then in other tournament that uses same prize-template the changes are not displayed untill forced prize-template load.

I hope it's clear what i ment to explain. Not real bugs, but for user friendly and logical behaviour i think there's much room for improvement to make here.

-------------Suggestion:There's maybe some room for improvement how to start a second tournament.The first time i tought RESET would reset the scores and start a new second tournament, but with reset all scores from the first tourney where gone from stats! Aaarch... my fault.The second time I clicked NEW, loaded same template as before (we wanted to play an exact same tourney again), and found many things where not cleared like buy-ins and some other things concerning players alltough i clicked something that stated "want to clear player buyins etc.".

Maybe it's me, but i find it a bit confusing how to start a new tournament without change on loosing first scores.Do you need to create a NEW tourney with a NEW NAME for every tournament, or can you re-use the same template again and just clear the player buyins before start? Looks like REusing same template also REuses the last scores in that template, and is that a problem for the overall stats?

So my suggestion is to remove NEW and RESET buttons, and make some sort of wizard. Or make a "wizard mode" optional in preferences. The wizard has only essential steps with questions if you want to.. Create, Start, Restart, or Reset a tourney? In this wizard all of the steps could have info displayed on what they do so users can read and make the correct choice. Just a suggestion...

I actually like the way the new and reset functions work and it is intuitive for me as someone who uses word processors a lot - so I will attempt an explanation of the TD file system in Word Processor terms.

When TD starts, much like a word processor, you are presented with a blank slate . . . a new tournament based on a default template (in a word processor that template is just a blank sheet of paper, in TD the template is a basic tournament, either one you defined, or the default one that comes with the program).

You can load a previous tournament just like you would open a word processing document that you have previously saved or you can start with a blank slate.

Once you work on a new tournament by changing something in say a layout tab or actually starting a tourney, then you need to save the tournament - just like if you had started a new document in a word processor. You will notice that when you start TD with a blank new tourney that you are not presented with the "save" button, just "save as" because you need to give this new tournament a file name. If you saved it, you would save over your default tourney name. Once you have given it a name, then it is a separate file and you can reopen it or do what you want with it.

If you are running 2 tournaments in a night you can open TD which always starts with a default tourney set up (blank page), then as is best with any program, you save the file with a descriptive name (I always include the date in the tourney name, like Dec-23rd-couples-tourney.tdt and then run the tourney. When you are done with this tourney you SAVE IT and close it, just as if you were working with a word processing file (to close it you either close TD or simply start a new tournament which effectively opens a new template with a fresh tourney). So this saved and finished tourney file will sit in your file system forever so you can use it to generate statistics later on.

Then you start your second tourney by opening up a new tourney, "SAVING IT WITH A DIFFERENT NAME and then continuing with the tourney (you will need to buy-in players again and seat them again).

The best thing of course is to set up a tourney like you want it with layout and game info and events and such, but without players bought in or seated. Then save this tourney and call it something like my-default-tourney.tdt and use this as your blank "default" template (go to "preferences" tab and click on "config files" and choose the tourney that you just saved as your "default" tourney), so that each time you open TD or hit the new button, you are presented with the look and feel and game preferences of that default tourney that you want in all your tourneys.

The reset button is just that, . . . it is meant to "reset" your current tourney back to its baseline state as if it was a default tourney - effectively whiping out all that has gone on within the tourney prior to that (takes clock back to zero and blinds back to level 1). You DO NOT want to use this to start a new tourney after you have finished one because it will erase all that went on in your previous tourney. But, it is very useful when you are running mock tourneys or you need to do a quick "do-over" if something happened very early on in your tourney and you want to start over. When you reset the tourney, TD gives you the option of leaving current buy-ins and seating, so you don't have to go through that exercise all over - again, this is useful for running mock tourneys or in case you need to start over again if for some reason that situation came up.

I hope this helps you understand the file system a bit.

I am not a big fan of wizards, although I understand why some people like them for certain operations.

So the answer to your question is YES, you need to start a new tournament with a new name for each tourney, but YES you can use the same template over and over again - you just need to define that template so TD knows what to start with each time. And YES if you reset a tourney you will overwrite the previous activity and lose that information for stats purposes (that's why you don't want to use "reset" for starting a new tourney).

So, what you want to do is get a tourney set up just like you want it to look like at the start of a tourney. Then save this tourney and use it as your default template. Then, each time you hit the "new" button for a new game or each time you open TD you are presented with your default template.

You may want to set up multipe "default" type tourneys (say a fast tourney with blinds going up quickly and a slow tourney with blinds going up slowly), so that you can always open up one of your default tourneys depending on the kind of tourney you feel like running. You can only define on "default" file, but it doesn't stop you from creating a file that is called "my-default-turbo-tourney" and opening that file to start a new tourney (just remember to "save as" with a new file name so you don't overwrite you turbo template).

- Just like in the description tandemrx gave, "tournaments" are to the TD what "documents" are to Microsoft Word (or any word processor). When you want to start a new tournament, press the "New" button to get a new, blank slate. Note that when you do this, the "Save" button is disabled and the Filename entry is empty. That's because you have a new tournament (just like a new document) and must save it the first time using the "Save As" button, so that you can give it a filename.

- Just like a "document", each tournament lives in its own file. If you load a document into a word processor, make changes, then save the document, you have overwritten the original document file with your changes. Likewise with the TD, if you load a tournament, make a bunch of changes, and then save the tournament, you are overwriting the original file. So if you load a tournament that has completed, press the Reset button, then save the tournament, you've lost that tournament history. You have saved a tournament that has not yet been "run" (you've reset it to before the tournament started) over the tournament that was already completed.

- The "Reset" button actually has a more relevant use, one that sounds perfect for your 2-tournaments-each-night gig. When your first tournament is over, make sure you have SAVED the tournament. Now press the Reset button. Now "Save As" the tournament and give it a new filename. Now you've saved the first tournament you ran, in its completed state, and you now are ready to start a second tournament, and you've saved it with a new filename, so it won't destroy the results of the first tournament. By pressing the Reset button, you were able to easily use all the settings already configured for the first tournament. I assume you run a 2nd, identical tournament, using the same settings, and the same players. This makes it real easy to get the 2nd tournament started.

- Templates also work very similarly to the way templates in a word processor work. I can create a new document, load a template for say, writing a business letter that has my logo and letterhead on it, and then save it. If I then open the template and make changes to the template, it does NOT change the document I created using the template. That is because the document doesn't just "refer" to the template, it loaded data from the template into the document. At that point, it basically "forgot" about the template - there is no "link" between the document and the template. So changing the template won't affect the document. It will only affect FUTURE documents that you create using the template. The same is true with the TD. When you load, for example, a Rounds template into a tournament and save the tournament, and then go change that Rounds template, the tournament file is not affected. The tournament file has no "link" to that Rounds template. All that happened when you loaded the Rounds template into your tournament is it replaced the Rounds in your tournament with the Rounds from the template.

I actually like the way the new and reset functions work and.............

Thank you both for this detailed and clear explanation.I do understand how it works now, and once you know this principal the buttons NEW and RESET are logical.Untill now i didn't realise that templates where also used to store the data. I thought the data itself was written somewhere else and therefore the tournament templates could be saved over without overwriting tournament data.I work with templates in M.. Office a lot; and i'm not used that templates are filled with data and saved as template again. Because i assumed templates are never filled with data i got confused... Now thinking back about all this i realise there is only a load/save template, but there is not a save "datafile" option so i had to know....

Just curious; Is there a specific reason why templates and tournament datafiles are not saved seperate with different file extensions?

Again, thnx!

---------

And the strange profile behaviour as described in my post for prices, tables, etc. Is that also my twisted mind that confuses me, or does it realy need some fixing?

--------

Okay, one more for the road...If i load a tournament template i see in status bar the tournament template name, but i have no idea what other templates (tables, prices, etc) are used and active. Is there a way to find out which active templates are loaded, or maybe possible to display the active template filename on top of each screen in the next version?

With regards,

The Duke.

ps: I realy like this software and i think its a great program! So my suggestions don not mean i don't like it, but i'm just trying to help you make it even better by letting you know what i experience from a pokersoftware noob's (what i am) point of view.

Not sure what you mean by data being stored with the templates either. Any layout templates or tourney templates shouldn't ever be written over unless you mean to do that (to change the template). TD is extremely (almost too?) flexible because you can save templates of various sections or you can save an entire tourney with various templates loaded into it at your pleasure . . . and that final tourney can then act as your default tourney set up and you don't have to worry about the component templates. You can then change anything you want by using either different templates or different tourneys altogether.

Maybe Corey can help you with that part, but I think TD does exactly what you want it to do in regards to templates.

One thing I might suggest is to not use the beta version if you are new to the TD software. 2.4.3 is the current regular version and it might be easier for you to start with and is still extremely full featured. It doesn't support extended monitors, but depending on how you use it you can still send TD to multiple monitors - many people have done this for some time. I will continue to use 2.4.3 sent to 2 or 3 monitors for tourneys until I figure out 2.5 myself (although so far I am running mock tourneys in 2.5 without problems).

It just might be easier to use a version that is well tested - just a thought.

Not sure what you mean by data being stored with the templates either. Any layout templates or tourney templates shouldn't ever be written over unless you mean to do that (to change the template). TD is extremely (almost too?) flexible

I'll try to explain a bit more...My defination of a template is: A template will only store settings and layout, but not the data (playerscores) itself.Take the wordproccessor example; The documents are opened as templates, but saved as documents... In these template files there is no typed document data. There is a seperate system between templates and data information workflow. Saving a template in a word processor program is a whole different system then saving a document with data (read playerscores).Now in "The Tournament Director" you load a template and save it under a different name, but still under same file extension and document type (it's still a "template"). And in that saved file there are settings, template layout, and score data.I rather open a template and save the tournament file under different extension like the office templates work. But that's how i'm used to it, and just personal favorite...

By more flexible i ment:If you store scoring data seperate you can store it in more readable files or even database. This way 3rth party tools can retrieve this data and can do lots of need stuff with it.I know many of you use the services of pokersites by using export options. But i'm a PHP website builder and rather have realtime pokerdata on my own website and in my own designs, and offcourse i rather acces a file or database direct then do an export every minute. Also i believe that if the data is easy accesible many more people will create 3rth party tools for it so this data can be used for many more things and The Tournament Director can be extended with plugins. One of the sites i run is a multigaming group, Just imagine the power if this gaming site can acces realtime pokerdata. Tournament Director might benefit from these extensions because the program grows and gets more options while others program them.

You're absolutely correct that the program itself with the templates and layout system is as flexible as can get. But putting score data in 1 file with template settings makes it a little bit harder to reach, so here is still an oppertunity to increase flexability in my humble opinion.Allmost every program i know (or programmed myself) that uses templates also stores data seperate. That's the reason i was wondering why the choice was made to not seperate it in this program.And i was just thinking out loud... So please do not take these comments like a bad thing.. the way it's made now works, and works great !!!

One thing I might suggest is to not use the beta version if you are new to the TD software. It just might be easier to use a version that is well tested - just a thought.

Thnx for the suggestion. All versions work the same concerning template files, So also when used the final version i would have cleared my scores by mistake.But allthough i'm new in the pokersoftware, i'm a Senior system operator and building PHP websites with MySQL db's for many years now. So i'm not lost in the world of beta's or the many options a program offers, it's just that template load/save system that threw me of for a sec.

I realy need the dualscreen output, and therefore this beta versions.

Beta programs like this are great that it's made public available.Sometimes somebody types for 5 hours in a forum and a whole new application option is born, and sometimes someone is wrong and all who read will learn.I learned a lot this weekend

And please don't take attempts at explaining what you had questions about as criticisms of your computer knowledge - no doubt your are experienced there - just trying to help you understand the program and trying to figure out if the things you bring up are bugs in a beta version or feature misunderstandings. Not trying to flame you .

And I agree that the final tournaments extension is the same as the extension of a default tourney (although some of the other templates, such as layouts have different extensions), but I think it is untrue that for say a MSWord template that the template does not contain data. If you have graphics or other textual elements in a template, then that template contains data just as a default .tdt file contains layout graphics and other information. There is very little difference between a .dot file and a .doc file other than MS doesn't give you the option to save over the template (at least when you open it as if starting say a new document). Even Excel type database files contain their data within individual files. Complex database programs no doubt handle data differently - that is certainly your world and not mine. But, TD does give you a way to easily mine all the data from all your separate tourneys in one place (see the stats page and stats filters).

but that is neither here nor there and I understand your interest in mining the data, but you and Corey can discuss that issue. Many users like the export function since they rely on the many poker league web sites to help them with mining the data (although the stats function of TD is pretty impressive and you might want to spend some time in there to make sure that you can't manipulate the data the way you want to in the stats and scoring data filters - its pretty cool).

The more difficult part of this thread is that you are wondering if problems you are experiencing are bugs in a beta version and it is very hard to figure that out since you are not familiar with the program - so I (or others) aren't sure if it is a bug, or if it is just because you are not familiar with the program.

So that is why I suggest trying the non-beta version - so that you don't confuse possible bugs that people are spending time trying to fleece out of a beta program from simple misunderstandings of program features. Even if you plan to use extended monitor feature in the future, it wouldn't hurt to learn the program in V2.4.3 as almost all those features are still in V2.5.

And again, you can use previous version on multiple monitors (at least mirrored or split to other monitors). I do it most every week, sending the TD program to 2 or 3 monitors off my laptop, and will continue to do so with the V2.4.3. Only thing that 2.5 gives you is ability to separate controls from the main tourney screen and use "extended monitor" feature. Players don't seem to have any problems with seeing the setting screen for the couple of seconds that it shows up while I bust out players or do rebuys - the tourney continues as it usually does - nothing is interupted. Is there a reason why you can't use multiple monitors with the current version (2.4.3)?

Just a thought so that it will be easier for you to distinguish problems you might be having with bugs.

And I agree that the final tournaments extension is the same as the extension of a default tourney (although some of the other templates, such as layouts have different extensions), but I think it is untrue that for say a MSWord template that the template does not contain data. If you have graphics or other textual elements in a template, then that template contains data just as a default .tdt file contains layout graphics and other information.

Don't want to start a whole big thing over templates, so i'll try one short last reply about it.We just have different interpretation of the term "data" here. And offcourse you're right when you say every bit is data.So what do i mean with tournament data then? With tournament data i mean dynamic data like scores and everything else that's recorded while playing a tournament. It doesn't matter if this is text, pictures or whatever. And with template data i mean all that is needed for settings and layout (the static stuff if you like the term).But i suggest leaving this all behind us for now, and if Corey thinks it's worth trying in version v28b3 he can allway's take this post and contact me for details abut the idea.

(although the stats function of TD is pretty impressive and you might want to spend some time in there to make sure that you can't manipulate the data the way you want to in the stats and scoring data filters - its pretty cool).

I sure was impressed by it. I made some html exports and after a little editing put them online where all the players gave lots of good compliments about this stats.Also the freedom for calculations is absolutely fantastic. And believe me, even if this program will never be updated again it will probably still be the best in 2020.

The more difficult part of this thread is that you are wondering if problems you are experiencing are bugs in a beta version and it is very hard to figure that out since you are not familiar with the program - so I (or others) aren't sure if it is a bug, or if it is just because you are not familiar with the program..............cut...Is there a reason why you can't use multiple monitors with the current version (2.4.3)?...

I think you misunderstood my suggestions as bug reports or misbehaviours. The only things i mentioned as possible bugs are the "temples need forced reload" stuff (text marked brown now) and the external screen activation. The first problem also occuurs in the final version, and the latter is a beta version bug report.For the rest i just type suggestions that comes to my mind while using the program... Free to throw away, or (like we do now) talk about to see if it realy could be a improvement.Nothing to win or loose or get right or wrong. I believe this kind of discussions bring out the best ideas, and it's a good thing to learn from each other.

I can't use multiple monitors for practical reasons. I'm just not able to carry my 19" monitors to the tourney room, but there's a 42" plasma present that i can use as external.

I will certainly leave the fancy database stuff to you and Corey and maybe something exciting will be added to the program in the future through your suggestions - so I certainly like that idea!

But your last comment of sending TD to a plasma has interest to me as I will soon run into that situation.

Why couldn't you send V2.4.3 to a plasma TV (since I will probably be using 2.4.3 for a good bit of time until 2.5 is well established)?

I would think the plasma has a vga plug or an S-video plug in that you could send TD out to with V2.4.3. I am considering also adding a 26-inch LCD to my set-up to send TD to and planned to send it to the VGA-in of the TV. Others have sent TD to TVs for some time (many threads about this). I haven't tried it yet.

I would be interested to know what problems you anticipate as I may be called over to my neighbors to run a tourney and also don't want to haul any monitors, but I know he has a big plasma TV. I was planning on just bringing a VGA cable and do what I usually do or possibly bring an S-video cable just to try out that connection type just in case I need to do that in the future.

1) Is it possible to display event messages anywhere but centered? I can display status messages at the bottom of the screen, but not event messages. Unfortunately this means in my layout that the event messages cover up the blinds, instead of the non-important stuff toward the bottom.

2) It seems the Conditions options for a layout cell don't differentiate between breaks and rounds. A condition that should only be ture in the last 40 seconds of a break also occurs during a round. I can work around it fine, but it seems to be an issue unless I'm missing something (quite possible).

3) Is there a way to assign points via the prizes and not have the prize be considered as "in the money"? I want to give points to the Top 8, but not have my in the money sound trigger until we actually get to the prizes (top 3 or 4 normally).

4) Would it be possible to also have an option on the table movement dialog to display the seating chart instead of the table movement dialog, and if I can get greedy to have the players moving be highlighted somehow? Since we don't show seat numbers, it would be easier to say to someone that you are now sitting between these two players.