Navigation

The Rational Response Squad is a group of atheist activists who impact society by changing the way we view god belief. This site is a haven for those who are pushing back against the norm, and a place for believers of gods to have their beliefs exposed as false should they want to try their hand at confronting us.

Buy any item on AMAZON, and we'll use the small commission to help end theism, dogma, violence, hatred, and other irrationality. Buy an Xbox 360 -- PS3 -- Laptop -- Apple

Can a consistent atheist have morals?

Posted on: November 29, 2010 - 7:00pm

Jean Chauvin

Posts: 1211

Joined: 2010-11-19

Offline

Can a consistent atheist have morals?

Hello,

Is it logically possible for atheists to have morals? I thought it best to start on a fresh topic. Besides the laws of the land, what keeps you from being a rapist or a mass murderer since you are worthless according to atheism and no ethics can be afforded to you.

Why is it that via your nature, everything you do is against the Bible. You don't go against Scripture because you intellectually go against Scripture, you do it because you "want" to via your desire. Where does your desire come from?

Isn't hating God a Hate Crime? Why would you be so intolerant about God when He tolerates you and allows you to breath. Why are you so intolerant and why are you so narrow minded that you don't allow the possibility for God.

But then again, according to this site, an agnostic is an atheist. lol. wow, that's a Classificational Fallacy if I ever saw one. Atheist via the etymological term is a fixed claim that there absolutely is no God. And now there are as many definitions for atheism as there are ice scream at Baskin Robbins. Just pick your flavor.

And this is what we would expect to find, since atheism is confusion and ridiculous. Atheism is by definition narrow-minded and is a hate crime since they hate God.

I will be moving for a while so will not be able to get back to this. Perhaps tomorrow before I go. But will return to see the pathetic attempts where atheists claim that they can have morals and they don't kill because of XYZ. Wow,

Now don't do what your nature does. Don't ignore the challenge by asking me about my system. I have already answered this on numerous occasions, but atheists do this to avoid the question often. Have guts and honestly look at this.

The only standard is yourself, which is the very definition of ego-centricism and selfishness. Atheists by definition only think of themselves. They are like babies constantly waiting for the spoon to feed them.

So make your case, if only logically possible.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

Is it logically possible for atheists to have morals? I thought it best to start on a fresh topic. Besides the laws of the land, what keeps you from being a rapist or a mass murderer since you are worthless according to atheism and no ethics can be afforded to you.

Why is it that via your nature, everything you do is against the Bible. You don't go against Scripture because you intellectually go against Scripture, you do it because you "want" to via your desire. Where does your desire come from?

Isn't hating God a Hate Crime? Why would you be so intolerant about God when He tolerates you and allows you to breath. Why are you so intolerant and why are you so narrow minded that you don't allow the possibility for God.

But then again, according to this site, an agnostic is an atheist. lol. wow, that's a Classificational Fallacy if I ever saw one. Atheist via the etymological term is a fixed claim that there absolutely is no God. And now there are as many definitions for atheism as there are ice scream at Baskin Robbins. Just pick your flavor.

And this is what we would expect to find, since atheism is confusion and ridiculous. Atheism is by definition narrow-minded and is a hate crime since they hate God.

I will be moving for a while so will not be able to get back to this. Perhaps tomorrow before I go. But will return to see the pathetic attempts where atheists claim that they can have morals and they don't kill because of XYZ. Wow,

Now don't do what your nature does. Don't ignore the challenge by asking me about my system. I have already answered this on numerous occasions, but atheists do this to avoid the question often. Have guts and honestly look at this.

The only standard is yourself, which is the very definition of ego-centricism and selfishness. Atheists by definition only think of themselves. They are like babies constantly waiting for the spoon to feed them.

So make your case, if only logically possible.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

morals but we still don't kill anyone. It's pretty obvious you are just labelling human social mores. It's clear from your posts here Jean, that you, like many christians, are stuck in conventional morality, scared of punishment and motivated by reward. True empathy for the human condition escapes you.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

The only standard is yourself, which is the very definition of ego-centricism and selfishness. Atheists by definition only think of themselves. They are like babies constantly waiting for the spoon to feed them.

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Christians are egocentric. Consider your argument that god made the universe just for you and he hovers over you all day long watching to see if you glance at your noo noo when you get out of the shower. Horrifyingly, he's streaming your consciousness in real time and he'll know if you sneak a peak at that Bras 'n Things catalogue.

You know how it works, Jean. If you're naughty you'll go over god's knee for a paddywhack but if you're good, you'll all be off to Luna Park to ride the Joy Wheel and eat battered savs for all eternity with no buildup of yucky plaque in your arteries and no skinned knees. So easy loving daddy.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

I am not scared. I have a desire to do good. I have a desire to obey God. Just like you have a desire to be immoral and be a heathen. We both have desires. My desires are for the good, and your desires are for the bad.

The question then is, where do these desires come from? They have to come from somewhere.

How can Christians be ego-centric if God is the center of their lives. By definition, if you are not the center, then that kind of takes the ego part away. I am not the source of ethics, God is. You on the other hand are ego-centric since you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS start and end start and end start and end with yourself. You are a walking circular reasoning with legs. And atheists are the consistent selfish baby who says give me give me give me.

It's reality.

God does spank His own children. Via death, divorce, or illness, etc. But He tends to allow the wicked to be wicked, so that He will then demonstrate His Wrath.

You're changing the subject to epistemology. Experiences is only 1 pagan way in an attempt to know. These are the only 3 ways pagans have tried to know:

Rationalism (Capital R via Rene Descartes).

Empiricism (Via Hume and Locke).

Mysticism (Jean-Jacques Rousseau)

Empiricism was merely chosen via the flip of the coin. Logical Positivism tried to start going via the early 20th century, but it was beat up so badly, it really had to dilute it extremely, to the point of contradictions.

So we now have a post-modern kind of empiricism which is death of thought and honesty or argument.

So why are you one and not the other.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Jean, I really don't follow what you are saying here. Perhaps you could clarify matters by answering some of my questions.

You say that god is going to demonstrate his wrath when he sends us all to hell. But to whom is he demonstrating it?

Seriously, from what I know, that is not going to happen until mister all knowing pulls the plug on the whole deal. At that point, there will be no one left to see what he did. We will all be in either one place or the other. Basically, there is going to be a north bound train and a southbound train. Pretty much, god will be showing the people on one train what happened to the others.

So where is there an opportunity to even try to do anything worthwhile? It seems as if you have the idea that god made a plan for the whole universe before starting the project off. Then he is going to end the project by “showing his wrath” to nobody in particular.

Were you dropped on your head at birth? You still sign your shit respectfully yet you are such a douche bag. Yes Jean, I have plenty of morals. I have never killed anyone nor comptemplated it. I have never raped anyone. I don't beat my kids or mistreat them. I've never done anything that is moraly wrong in book except for the common mistakes you make when raising kids. I'm do right because it's right. Guilt goes hand in hand with morals. If I did any of the things I listed, I would have guilt.

Where do you get off coming here with your holier than thou attitude questioning our morals? I've answered your questions so here, answer mine. Do all christians molest and rape kids? Do they all have the ability that you do to be a cunning liar? What I mean by that is do they tell people they know they are evil and then say no disrespect towards you. I could go on but I think I've made my point.

If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.

Were you dropped on your head at birth? You still sign your shit respectfully yet you are such a douche bag. Yes Jean, I have plenty of morals. I have never killed anyone nor comptemplated it. I have never raped anyone. I don't beat my kids or mistreat them. I've never done anything that is moraly wrong in book except for the common mistakes you make when raising kids. I'm do right because it's right. Guilt goes hand in hand with morals. If I did any of the things I listed, I would have guilt. Where do you get off coming here with your holier than thou attitude questioning our morals? I've answered your questions so here, answer mine. Do all christians molest and rape kids? Do they all have the ability that you do to be a cunning liar? What I mean by that is do they tell people they know they are evil and then say no disrespect towards you. I could go on but I think I've made my point.

" Rebecca,

I have already presented you my arguments. You, as all atheists, cannot know, and you have no true knowledge, you can't even read or write, so you failed to respond to my questions.

Christianity is the only true, the truth is in Jesus Christ, and if you do not believe in Jesus than you are dumb and if you do not raise your kids accepting Jesus than your kids are also dumb, you all are dumb idiot atheists evil coming &*^% you.

Respectfully.

"

Rebecca, I don't believe this guy is for real. But if he really is such a fucking fountaining idiot, I think that most Christians will pray for him, so demons may leave his doomed soul.

In my spare time, I torture Beagle puppies with branding irons and have sexual orgies with five year old autistic children in my underground lair. I hate God so much that I wear a Jesus mask while doing this.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

In my spare time, I torture Beagle puppies with branding irons and have sexual orgies with five year old autistic children in my underground lair. I hate God so much that I wear a Jesus mask while doing this.

Rite!

And we stroll around Christian neighborhoods picking up Christian babies, then we grill them and feed them to our dogs and pigs. And then we have orgies with pigs shouting "Christ, I hate you!"

... and here comes Jean, and He gets out of His infinite pants ... huge biblical symbol ... the crucifix of truth ... and every sinner LOLs in front of Him!

How can Christians be ego-centric if God is the center of their lives. By definition, if you are not the center, then that kind of takes the ego part away. I am not the source of ethics, God is. You on the other hand are ego-centric since you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS start and end start and end start and end with yourself. You are a walking circular reasoning with legs. And atheists are the consistent selfish baby who says give me give me give me.

It's not god who's the centre of your universe but your relationship with god that's the centre. And the thing is Jean, that in our subjective reality, nailed to our individual neurocircuitry, every person is the centre of their universe. It's part of the human condition. I find it interesting to consider that christians love a god that exists outside the universe and who they reify with special qualities they make up in their heads using their own imaginations and then they say this god is separate from them.

Jean, name one quality of god that you cannot imagine.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

You are implying that consistent atheism allowed this to be so. I say that is incorrect. If it wasn't for Christianity via the beginnings of science or the Novum Organum even though I disagree with Bacon.

Atheism gave us nothing. The theft from Christianity gave us something.

___________________________________

Hi Rebecca

I bet you do have morals. But where do they come from? Is there a store somewhere? Did you get some morals via the Black Friday Sale? ??

Define morals. How do you know that is the definition? And are you absolutely sure you have morals or do you probably have morals? Remember knowledge is not absolute as an atheist. So you probably don't beat your kids.

You are a blank tablet so guilt is a Christian thing. For how would you know if you are doing anything wrong is there is no right or wrong?

Argue, go. And I will continue to pray for you.

You are sure speaking in absolute terms. Good mom, good this and that. Why so absolute? I thought there were no absolutes? So there is a probability that you are terribly bad right?

_________________________________________

Hi AtheistExtremist

No, God transcends all things. And all glory goes to Him and Him alone for He is the creator of us and of all things. There is a relationship but the ontology of God is independent from that.

You were taught bad theology as a kid.

God alone is objective. So those things spoken about by God are reality. So we only know what that reality is if He reveals it to us.

"human condition." Are you now a psychologist? Psychology is not even empirical. The secular wannabe "scientists" even call it "soft science."

Quote:

It's part of the human condition. I find it interesting to consider that christians love a god that exists outside the universe and who they reify with special qualities they make up in their heads using their own imaginations and then they say this god is separate from them.

God transcends the universe via His nature. But demonstrated His love for us via His son via the hypostatic union. Thus Jesus is now trapped in time because He loves us. You really weren't taught this.

Imagine what you can't imagine is a dumb trick my kids do. Since I sign my letters "respectfully," I will dumb down the conversation so I can remain respectful.

I am praying for you also.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Atheism gave us nothing. The theft from Christianity gave us something

You are such a self serving self centered bastard.

Do you think your magic vagina story is original to Christianity? Do you think your magic rising from the dead stories are original to Christianity? Do you think curing blindness via "POOF" is original to Chritianity? Do you think your magic baby's birthday is original to Christianity?

Do you know where "eye for an eye" came from? Do you know who ascended into heaven to sit in judgment of the dead long before your alleged zombiegod?

The only thing Christianity gave humanity was another blood cult, and hardly original.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

If God transcends all things, does he transcend your comprehension or is his majesty limited by your ability to conceive of it? If he does transcend all things, how can you know this, given the limitations of your vile earthly body and walnut brain.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck

You want to influence people? Have a positive impact on their lives? Encourage them to take Jesus into their heart - yada, yada.

So, might I sincerely suggest you don't start out by saying the person is nothing, has nothing, no logic, no knowledge, no intelligence. Many people are pissed about being called a no-thing. I am someone. Not a thing. A person. You might demonstrate some respect - just saying "respectfully" doesn't make it so.

And at this exact moment, I am so glad I am going to hell and I will NOT have to spend eternity with a bunch of smarmy christians like you.

Not so respectfully but sincerely,

CJ

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.

Is it logically possible for atheists to have morals? I thought it best to start on a fresh topic. Besides the laws of the land, what keeps you from being a rapist or a mass murderer since you are worthless according to atheism and no ethics can be afforded to you.

Why is it that via your nature, everything you do is against the Bible. You don't go against Scripture because you intellectually go against Scripture, you do it because you "want" to via your desire. Where does your desire come from?

Isn't hating God a Hate Crime? Why would you be so intolerant about God when He tolerates you and allows you to breath. Why are you so intolerant and why are you so narrow minded that you don't allow the possibility for God.

But then again, according to this site, an agnostic is an atheist. lol. wow, that's a Classificational Fallacy if I ever saw one. Atheist via the etymological term is a fixed claim that there absolutely is no God. And now there are as many definitions for atheism as there are ice scream at Baskin Robbins. Just pick your flavor.

And this is what we would expect to find, since atheism is confusion and ridiculous. Atheism is by definition narrow-minded and is a hate crime since they hate God.

I will be moving for a while so will not be able to get back to this. Perhaps tomorrow before I go. But will return to see the pathetic attempts where atheists claim that they can have morals and they don't kill because of XYZ. Wow,

Now don't do what your nature does. Don't ignore the challenge by asking me about my system. I have already answered this on numerous occasions, but atheists do this to avoid the question often. Have guts and honestly look at this.

The only standard is yourself, which is the very definition of ego-centricism and selfishness. Atheists by definition only think of themselves. They are like babies constantly waiting for the spoon to feed them.

So make your case, if only logically possible.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Morality is NOT about obeying a deity or what is objectively right or wrong. There is no evidence of absolute morality even existing (if you disagree then give examples of it).

Human morality grew out of primate society long before any deities were even invented. Such pre-moral sentiments evolved as a method of restraining individual selfishness and allowing for more cooperative social groups.

These are the same qualities required by ALL social species because of the survival benefits in being part of an altruistic group, which greatly outweigh the benefits of individualism in terms of defense against enemies and food gathering etc. Such qualities are the basis of human morality NOT divine laws. Morality is functional.

As social creatures we are all under the rule of law as devised by the community (hopefully with our participation) and enforced with penalties for non-compliance. So, don’t be so dismissive of the “laws of the land”.

We have devised social contracts whereby it is in an individual’s rational self-interest to give up individual freedom in order to obtain the benefits of social order – essential for the survival of the species. This is morality.

____________________________________________________________

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." – Christopher Hitchens

Am I "Don't Get the Bit" guy? .... This can't be real.... can it? ... This Jean Cauvin fella is really someone just pretendingto be a barking mad, barely coherant loon.....Right? .....

....I'm waiting for the "Gotcha"

I have never understood the intense fascination with carrying on an extended dialog with an obvious troll. It's like being on a walk in the park, seeing a pile of dog poop up ahead, and then deliberately stepping in it ......repeatedly. How's that for being rational ?

You want to influence people? Have a positive impact on their lives? Encourage them to take Jesus into their heart - yada, yada.

So, might I sincerely suggest you don't start out by saying the person is nothing, has nothing, no logic, no knowledge, no intelligence. Many people are pissed about being called a no-thing. I am someone. Not a thing. A person. You might demonstrate some respect - just saying "respectfully" doesn't make it so.

And at this exact moment, I am so glad I am going to hell and I will NOT have to spend eternity with a bunch of smarmy christians like you.

Not so respectfully but sincerely,

CJ

It doesn't shock me when people make ignorant statements about atheists. I once had a co-worker ask me if I worship satan, and she was being serious. I chuckled and responded "If I don't believe in god, why would I believe in his arch enemy?"

I don't mind the initial ignorance, most believers are not exposed to atheists on a daily basis, or are sheltered and don't realize how many atheists they come in contact with without knowing.

It becomes bothersome when they make these naked assertions and continue to insist on using them after we have refuted them.

Jean isn't here to debate, Jean came here to sell us his earth shattering invention that will save the world. It is totally foreign to many believers, like Jean, that there are people outside their belief.

I don't mind being equated to Hitler, it is a common misconception believers get sold, but after I tell someone why they are wrong in that claim, it pisses me off.

Jean has every opportunity to make his stay more productive, but sees himself, not as an individual merely here for debate, but our savior. He wants to be somebody. He is desperate to give his own life meaning rather than accept that he is one of 6 billion.

We have been called immoral. We have been called evil. We have falsely been called every name in the book. Jean is not the first and wont be the last to do this. I simply try to treat them like the tantrum throwing brats they act like.

I don't expect someone to blindly "respect" me anymore than I would blindly respect them. I am more concerned with their arguments and the evidence for their position. But in Jean's case, he is getting what he deserves because he has spent all his time whining about us "evil cootie spreaders" like an ignorant child.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

I have never understood the intense fascination with carrying on an extended dialog with an obvious troll. It's like being on a walk in the park, seeing a pile of dog poop up ahead, and then deliberately stepping in it ......repeatedly. How's that for being rational ?

I think the idea is to expose his insanity by letting him talk and......

It doesn't shock me when people make ignorant statements about atheists. I once had a co-worker ask me if I worship satan, and she was being serious. I chuckled and responded "If I don't believe in god, why would I believe in his arch enemy?"

Yeah, I got that one too. I responded, if I believe god doesn't answer prayers, why should I believe satan will? The guy actually got a thoughtful look and said, I didn't think of that.

Brian37 wrote:

I don't mind the initial ignorance, most believers are not exposed to atheists on a daily basis, or are sheltered and don't realize how many atheists they come in contact with without knowing.

It becomes bothersome when they make these naked assertions and continue to insist on using them after we have refuted them.

I think "bothersome" is rather an understatement. How about "fricking ignorant bone headed annoying asshole".

Brian37 wrote:

Jean isn't here to debate, Jean came here to sell us his earth shattering invention that will save the world. It is totally foreign to many believers, like Jean, that there are people outside their belief.

I don't mind being equated to Hitler, it is a common misconception believers get sold, but after I tell someone why they are wrong in that claim, it pisses me off.

Jean has every opportunity to make his stay more productive, but sees himself, not as an individual merely here for debate, but our savior. He wants to be somebody. He is desperate to give his own life meaning rather than accept that he is one of 6 billion.

Like many religious people I have met in the past, it is the self-esteem problem. "I can't feel good about myself on my own merits, so I have to have an invisible friend to give me virtual hugs."

Rather pathetic. But it doesn't make me want to give them a hug - more like a kick in the pants. "Get out there and take care of yourself, damn it! No one else will, especially not your sky daddy."

Brian37 wrote:

We have been called immoral. We have been called evil. We have falsely been called every name in the book. Jean is not the first and wont be the last to do this. I simply try to treat them like the tantrum throwing brats they act like.

I don't expect someone to blindly "respect" me anymore than I would blindly respect them. I am more concerned with their arguments and the evidence for their position. But in Jean's case, he is getting what he deserves because he has spent all his time whining about us "evil cootie spreaders" like an ignorant child.

Agreed.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.

I have never understood the intense fascination with carrying on an extended dialog with an obvious troll. It's like being on a walk in the park, seeing a pile of dog poop up ahead, and then deliberately stepping in it ......repeatedly. How's that for being rational ?

I think the idea is to expose his insanity by letting him talk and......

Uhm, no, you're right.

Time for the troll badge.

(We do still hand those out, right ? Or have we given up on that ?)

I'm with you. Maybe his threads would die a natural death then.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.

I have never understood the intense fascination with carrying on an extended dialog with an obvious troll. It's like being on a walk in the park, seeing a pile of dog poop up ahead, and then deliberately stepping in it ......repeatedly. How's that for being rational ?

I think the idea is to expose his insanity by letting him talk and......

Uhm, no, you're right.

Time for the troll badge.

(We do still hand those out, right ? Or have we given up on that ?)

I'm with you. Maybe his threads would die a natural death then.

Why do I get the feeling Jean's threads won't die? Every time I read his posts I hear the the mother in the creepy house on top of the hill overlooking the Motel, "Norman".

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

You're right, atheists don't get our morals from the bible. Luckily, however, neither do you. We all have certain moral precepts encoded into our genetic structure. No, not by natural selection. By tribe selection and sexual selection.

If you got your morals from the bible, you'ld consider eating shellfish as big a sin as homosexuality. If you got your morals from the bible, you'd have no problem with raiding rival nations, killing all the adults and male children and keeping alive only the young females who have not known a man by lying with him. If you got your morals from the bible, you'ld be fine with the murder of adulterers, homosexuals, people who work on saturdays, and disobedient children.

The fact that you can consider homosexuality a sin (I'm assuming you do), but not the eating of shellfish is proof that you have an independant moral compass which you use to interpret the moralistic preachings in the bible. These two rules are in the same book, seperated by only a few passages, and are equally stringent in their language, there is no biblical or scriptural criteria to seperate one from the other as "metaphor" or otherwise unauthoritative.

The point is this. You don't have to tell people not to kill one another. So long as there is no tribal rivalries and dehumanizing propaganda, noone considers the murder of another human being to be acceptible. If they do, we call them psychopaths and we put them in prison or mental institutions to protect our society from abhorrent violence. In short, we would not have made it as far as the foot of mount sinai if we were under the impression that murder, rape, perjury and theft were OK. Societies without morals cannot stand, let alone prosper. The morals you say we have no justification for were embedded in us long before a single page of scripture was ever written, and that is an anthropologically verifiable fact. You are just wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

I'm so sorry, El. I was going to quote your post, but I accidentally hit edit and posted over it. *sob* Moderator fail. It looked like you put some work into that one too.

Anyways, what I was going to do was to add to your post by noting that just hating someone isn't a hate crime anyways. You have to commit a real crime like assault or murder against someone because of some group they're affiliated with, not just thoughtcrime.

Edit: Omg, I still have the unrefreshed page on a different window. Hahahahaha. I'll quote you.

El-alrairah wrote:

"Is it logically possible for atheists to have morals?"

Yes. (Don't accuse me of dodging the question because I'm now going to address the flaws in your argument; I've answered the question here, and I can elaborate my reasoning if necessary.)

"Besides the laws of the land, what keeps you from being a rapist or a mass murderer since you are worthless according to atheism and no ethics can be afforded to you?"

Strawman.

"Why is it that via your nature, everything you do is against the Bible?"

Because it's bullshit. Or at least, only the 99% of the Bible that's bullshit; we follow other things such as "do not kill" that are found in the Bible, but not because they're in the Bible.

"You don't go against Scripture because you intellectually go against Scripture, you do it because you 'want' to via your desire. Where does your desire come from?"

From our biological need to survive, and our brains. What each human desires is subjective, although many people desire similar things. As for our "desire" (or "decision", to use a better term) to go against Scripture specifically, it's because Scripture is bullshit.

"Isn't hating God a Hate Crime?"

Hate crimes don't apply to fictional characters. I hate Edward Cullen; should I be arrested?

"Why would you be so intolerant about God when He tolerates you and allows you to breath?"

"Allowing" us to breathe? Where does he get the right to decide whether we live or die? You're also assuming God exists.

"Why are you so intolerant and why are you so narrow minded that you don't allow the possibility for God."

No one except strong atheists are not allowing the possibility of God. We just need proof of your claims, that's all.

"But then again, according to this site, an agnostic is an atheist. lol. wow, that's a Classificational Fallacy if I ever saw one."

No. An agnostic can be either a theist or an atheist, because agnosticism is a separate issue.

"Atheist via the etymological term is a fixed claim that there absolutely is no God."

No. It's originally from the Greek ἀθεός (atheos); separated, it means ἀ- (a-), "without, no" + θεός (theos), "god". So atheism is term that can mean either "lack of belief in god(s)" or "belief there is no god(s)", and a person can hold one or the other definition depending on the god-claim.

"And this is what we would expect to find, since atheism is confusion and ridiculous."

Strawman. Confusion is not a synonym for atheism.

"Atheism is by definition narrow-minded and is a hate crime since they hate God."

You need to stop making up definitions that people don't accept for words you clearly know nothing about.

"But will return to see the pathetic attempts where atheists claim that they can have morals and they don't kill because of XYZ."

How dare you sign your posts "respectfully" after saying things like this, and after saying things like "you are worthless according to atheism" and "why are you so narrow-minded"?

"Now don't do what your nature does. Don't ignore the challenge by asking me about my system. I have already answered this on numerous occasions, but atheists do this to avoid the question often. Have guts and honestly look at this."

We are. Not one's avoiding the question; you're just avoiding our answers.

"The only standard is yourself, which is the very definition of ego-centricism and selfishness. Atheists by definition only think of themselves."

Strawman.

"They are like babies constantly waiting for the spoon to feed them."

Once again, I ask you: how DARE you sign your posts "respectfully" after saying things like this? Being condescending doesn't mean you win the argument.

"So make your case, if only logically possible."

We're waiting for the same from you.

"Respectfully,"

Fuck you, hypocrite.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

The Bible says that you hate the truth. So no wonder when I quote it, you get furious. Your bondage to your desires are so obvious.

Eye for an Eye was revealed to Moses and he wrote it down. You didn't know that?

If it wasn't for Christianity, there would have been no science.

_____________________________

Hi Extremeist,

Yes, our comprehension He also transcends. But He has the power to allow His children to comprehend His revelation via the Holy Spirit.

However, 2+2=4 to God and man period.

______________________________

Hi Rebecca,

Were your parents atheists? Were you raised in an atheist church? Why did you become an atheist? For real. Were you raised in the Christian church, then shacked up with some guy, thus the morals went first then the doctrine. And now atheism justifies your sin and God is not accountable to your wickedness. Is that about how it went?

______________________________

Hi CJ,

I can't encourage anybody to do anything. They are bound with thick chains via their nature and desires. The only one that can break these chains is God, if He chooses to, by giving them a different nature.

Some cannot choose God ever. I do not know what they are. Are you one of them my Jewish friend?

You are misunderstanding my argument. I do not think they are worthless because God created them via purpose, but atheism and empiricism says that they are worthless.

I know you're glad you're going to hell. That's typical of the heathen.

_________________________________

Hi Tess,

Absolute morality can be found in the 10 commandments along with other books of the 66 volume encyclopedia.

Please define this primitive morality. Define it and apply it. The law of the land is set via Biblical influence. So, if there were not civil law, what is the ultimate reason as to why murdering your family is wrong?

Is it common consent? Perhaps by vote? You're not an honest atheist because atheism and empiricism gives you no morals, knowledge, beauty, and thus no understanding of reality, and your being. Atheism and empiricism takes you back to an ape where you grunt, jump, and point. And that's all you can do if you want to be consistent within your own system.

So atheistic ethics is based via Existentialism? Survival only for you, not anybody else since atheism is selfish. If you WANT to kill your family, why is that wrong? The issue of survival is not via ethics, but via ontology. Ontology is another area of philosophy.

Yes, yes, the community. But this still does not answer the ultimate question. So the community is a kind of god that makes your morals for you? So then you agree that it is wrong to have homosexuals marry each other because the community says so?

Oh, you don't? Then at that point, how do you determine what is right or wrong? What if you were a Senator like that fag Al Franken, how would you come up with ethics? Where would they come from?

Social contracts? How convenient. You have to do social contracts because you don't have a means of morals. No way to say that the contract is wrong. You can't say abortion is right. You can't say separation from Church and State. You can't say don't pray in Public Schools. You can't say anything, since an atheist is immoral and selfish by definition.

Thus atheists are potentially extremely dangerous people.

________________________________________________

Hey Fonzie,

Did you have a question? Did you just tell me to go sit on it?

_________________________________________________

Hi Prozac,

I see you have a gun there? Atheism doesn't tell you anything about right and wrong. But as a Christian, it is wrong to kill people, so don't.

_______________________________________________

Hi Brian,

If I'm ignorant, education me. You have yet to say anything via reason. I think you are angry because you didn't get enough hugs when you were younger.

Brian, you are worthless and immoral via atheism and empiricism. Not via reality which is understood in Christianity. I don't think this, but this is the ultimate conclusion via your system, not mine.

___________________________________________

Hi Cj,

Psychology is a joke and has no merit. I should say "modern" psychology since there is a Christian psychology not based on 20th century garbage. Freud had many many little statue idols.

_____________________________________________

Hi UnO,

What is this specific gene in our genetic structure called? Where was it studied? How long? What were the variables? And if empiricism was the means to determine this, the study is refuted since empiricism itself has been refuted as a means to know.

The Bible must be rightly interpreted. Acts 10 says you can now eat shell fish. I'm not Jewish like CJ, I'm a perfected Jew, I'm Christian.

It is a big shocker to everyone here that an atheist has extremely poor and absurd hermeneutics. lol.

Homosexuality is condemned both in the old covenant and new covenant. Shell fish is only in the old covenant via the nation of Israel. I am not a member of any of the 12 tribes.

Would you like to do a Bible study on the covenants? It would help you.

While I do believe there is a spiritual DNA type via the Imago Dei, a consistent atheism that is bound purely by his nature and desires would be the worst criminal in the world. Praise God He holds you back.

_____________________________________

Hi ButterBattle,

The Bible says that you commit the act by dwelling on the acts. And since atheists do this, then they are doing hate crimes all the time.

_____________________________________

Hi Sandy,

I truly wish for you to be the best atheist you can be. If I could just make one atheist more consistent, that would make me a happy person.

What's with your all seeing eye? Are you a Lady Gaga fan or Occultist or both?

_________________________________________

Hi Ragdash,

Che is burning in probably the hottest section in hell. Che was a very evil man. Just like atheists would be via a Revolution. The soon to be revolution fueled by communist atheists will correspond to their evil nature. I'm sure some day, some on here will murder some Christians during that time.

_______________________________________________

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Were you raised in the Christian church, then shacked up with some guy, thus the morals went first then the doctrine. And now atheism justifies your sin and God is not accountable to your wickedness. Is that about how it went?

Shacked up with some guy? Holy sexism, Batman. Yeah, every girl is turned to atheism by a guy. Atheism is basically vampirism. It's why we're all so hot and brooding.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

I can't encourage anybody to do anything. They are bound with thick chains via their nature and desires. The only one that can break these chains is God, if He chooses to, by giving them a different nature.

And you're here arguing because ...

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Thus atheists are potentially extremely dangerous people.

People are potentially dangerous people.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Psychology is a joke and has no merit.

Did your psychiatrist tell you that?

Jean Chauvin wrote:

I should say "modern" psychology since there is a Christian psychology not based on 20th century garbage. Freud had many many little statue idols.

Right. Statue idols. So ... B. F. Skinner? I'm curious what odd fact you have about him that involves something you completely made up just now.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

While I do believe there is a spiritual DNA type via the Imago Dei, a consistent atheism that is bound purely by his nature and desires would be the worst criminal in the world. Praise God He holds you back.

I'm pretty convinced that the first form of MAN had morals of some sort. Way before Christianity was concocted.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Besides the laws of the land, what keeps you from being a rapist or a mass murderer ?

Absolutely nothing. I may well be and nobody would even know it. Ever watch DEXTER? The next guy or gal who stands beside you could be a serial killer and you wouldn't even know their little secret. And 5 times out of 10 you probably could not tell which religion they are either. If any.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

since you are worthless according to atheism.

Who's definition or conclusion is that? I can tell already that you generalize like a true Christian. I have a job, and a family that I solely support with my income. A sick wife and 2 disabled children. They are all theists, which I do not mind at all. They need something to believe in and so be it. I wish I could make them see sense but to tell you the truth, I just can't be bothered trying.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

and no ethics can be afforded to you.

Ethics. When did you last read the definitions to the words that you spew against atheist people. We don't have a special disease or anything you know. Ethics are instilled into every child as we educate them in this world.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Why is it that via your nature, everything you do is against the Bible? You don't go against Scripture because you intellectually go against Scripture,

I don't do things against the bible any more than I do things against Cinderella, the Q'uran or any other fairy tales. How can someone act against scriptures when they have no clue what they contain? I conclude that you would therefore intellectually go against scripture having never read it.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

you do it because you "want" to via your desire. Where does your desire come from?

I wake up every day and live my life like any other person I know. Humans get their desires from their own minds. Not from books. We all have desires, religious or not.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Isn't hating God a Hate Crime? Why would you be so intolerant about God when He tolerates you and allows you to breath. Why are you so intolerant and why are you so narrow minded that you don't allow the possibility for God.

I feel that it is not logical to hate something that you don't believe in. Therefore I cannot hate god and have committed no crime. I don't believe that I do anything that could be classed as intolerable and I don't need to tolerate something I do not believe in either, so that's all settled for me, eh? Narrow minded. I don't think that someone who believes in scientific explanations and facts should be classed as narrow minded. Science has just scratched the surface of discovery and we have much to learn. You never know what will be discovered next.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

But then again, according to this site, an agnostic is an atheist. lol. wow, that's a Classificational Fallacy if I ever saw one. Atheist via the etymological term is a fixed claim that there absolutely is no God. And now there are as many definitions for atheism as there are ice scream at Baskin Robbins. Just pick your flavor.

IMO. You either believe or you don't. Personally I think that you are either theist or atheist. I find no betwixt. There are more gods than ice cream flavours too. WAY more. Just pick your god or gods if you like a big helping.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

And this is what we would expect to find, since atheism is confusion and ridiculous. Atheism is by definition narrow-minded and is a hate crime since they hate God.

I am not confused about anything. Who actually defined the term, as you write it? I'd hazard a guess that it was a theist. I've already addressed the hate crime above.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Now don't do what your nature does. Don't ignore the challenge by asking me about my system. I have already answered this on numerous occasions, but atheists do this to avoid the question often. Have guts and honestly look at this.

My nature tells me that you are a nutcase and a god fanatic. You might even be a rapist or a mass murderer for all I know. I see no challenge to ignore. Merely a few questions which really pose no challenge whatsoever. I could care less about whatever system you have. If it's anything to do with a god, then to me it has failure written all over it.

Jean Chauvin wrote:

The only standard is yourself, which is the very definition of ego-centricism and selfishness. Atheists by definition only think of themselves. They are like babies constantly waiting for the spoon to feed them.

I do not try to live up to any standard that I am aware of. I just try to do what I believe is right for me and the ones I love. And if one day comes when I have to kill for them, then so be it. Also the other way if I had to die to save all of them, then so be it. Hardly selfishness. I do think about myself, too. I mentioned earlier about my family and my income...The atheist is the one holding the spoon. That's a right good 180 there if I do say so myself. So I must be like a god to them because I make it possible for them to eat and breathe every day. I had never thought of it that way before. How enlightening.

The Bible says that you commit the act by dwelling on the acts. And since atheists do this, then they are doing hate crimes all the time.

It's really not a hate crime in the legal sense though is it? Hmm? You just arbitrarily made up your own definition of hate crime, like you do with any other term that you feel like abusing.

That's not really an argument. I mean, I can do that too. Christians are all stupid and immoral by definition. Therefore, you're stupid and immoral. Tada!

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare

Wow Jean .. you are so full of hate in your heart. How can this medium possibly help you to be a good Christian? How many people do you expect to pull over to your side when you are constantly and vulgarly offending them? How does God feel about your actions towards others? What exactly are you gaining from this process?

The Bible says that you commit the act by dwelling on the acts. And since atheists do this, then they are doing hate crimes all the time.

It's really not a hate crime in the legal sense though is it? Hmm? You just arbitrarily made up your own definition of hate crime, like you do with any other term that you feel like abusing.

That's not really an argument. I mean, I can do that too. Christians are all stupid and immoral by definition. Therefore, you're stupid and immoral. Tada!

He is not stupid and immoral because he believes in magical sperm and zombie gods, he is immoral and stupid because he thinks his fictional friend invented morality and that all 6 billion humans should be subject to his personal whims.

I really think that this is a mental defect in our species evolution. In our natural drive to survive we mistake labels as being an absolute cure and no matter how false a belief might be, if it seems to work, humans will project that on the world around them, be it a political or religious idea. On an individual level with people like this, it seems with Jean wants so badly to give his own life meaning, he sees himself as being a hero out to save the world.

It is funny how the believer when observing others superstitions will think "That is just plain nutty", but wont look in the mirror to see how nutty their own claims are.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

I truly wish for you to be the best atheist you can be. If I could just make one atheist more consistent, that would make me a happy person.

What's with your all seeing eye? Are you a Lady Gaga fan or Occultist or both?

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

I doubt you can 'make' an atheist more consistent (whatever that means) any more than you can convert one to your religion. I attempt to be the best PERSON I can be - acknowledging religion as a fairy tale is a big part of it, imo. I wish for you to be the happiest person you can be...and one day, when you realize your religion is a stumbling block to living in reality and a hindrance to you achieving your full potential as a human being, you will be.

The 'all seeing eye' is the window to my soul looking into yours.

I can't stand No-Talent, Lady DipShit. I don't believe in the occult any more than I believe in your god...but, yesterday's horoscope was coincidentally right on the money.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein

Well, I asked this question on another thread, but out of sheer boredom and out of the fact that I actually am curious to hear the responses of a Consistent Christian over a plain old non-consistent Christian, I'll ask it again here. Here, I'll save time and just paste it here :

Laws predate Christianity. As do moral codes. Consider this for instance, if you were to take an Ancient Roman from the times of earliest Christendom, a medieval man from the 1300's, a 19th century cowboy from the old west, and a modern Christian of today, would it be remotely possible to say that all of these different people from different time periods have the exact same morals throughout history all the way across the board? While some people could make the argument for the morals of say, an Abe Lincoln or a H.G. Wells from the 19th century as an example, I can assure you that their ideas of equality were not the same as say, the ideals of 21st Century man.

So if God created morals, why do morals change with every time period and why do morals change upon the society that we live in ?

Eastern Cultures in China and Japan that span back time over thousands of years have laws and have morals. Where do they get these from if Jesus didn't preach them to those cultures ? Granted, I find some of the principles of Buddhism to be just as ridiculous as Christianity, society had rules and morals long before the establishment of a religion. The fact that you are claiming your doctrine as the "ONE TRUE" doctrine from which all laws and morals originate does not make it so.

It was a moral thing to own slaves at one point. It is not considered moral now, so if morals are objective why did they change ?

It was a moral thing to beat your wife and children at one time, as the Bible allowed. Today it is not considered moral to do so, if morals are objective why did they change ?

It was a moral thing to burn heretics at the stake at one time. For the sake of saving their souls. It is not considered moral today to burn people at the stake, if morals are objective why did they change ?

It was a moral thing to stone women to death for adultery at one time. It is not considered moral today to stone women to death for adultery, if morals are objective why did they change ?

It was moral to crucify people on a cross at one time. It is not considered moral today to crucify people to crosses, if morals are objective why did they change ?

It is considered moral, in some parts of the Old Testament, for conquering tribes to rape women and take them as brides. It is not considered moral today to rape women and force them to be your bride, if morals are objective why have they changed ?

See where I am going with this ?

Morals are obviously relative, morals change with time, morals actually are not an indicator of right and wrong in my opinion. Think about the average American of the 1950's and what their ideals and notions were on interracial marriage and out of wedlock mothers (I am not saying everyone who lived back then, but anyone who was alive back then I am sure will attest to this). Think about the fact that for years, every married couple on television had to have separate beds when their bedroom was on the television camera. Think about the way that many people view the notions of marriage and the institution of marriage today.

Riddle me this Jean, if morals are totally objective, then why have all societies in general (whether ruled by Christian or non-Christian) changed them ? Why have WE as a people, changed them ? Would you be for stoning an unwed mother to death ? Surely not.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Yes we hand them out, while he may be a troll, I'll likely avoid giving him one. I was hoping not to scare him off, he's been a great lesson in the failures of Christianity.

I totally agree with Sapient on this issue. If he gets assigned a troll badge or gets outright banned, then he can go away feeling victorious. He can say that the RRS could not handle the truth or logic and thus had to ban or ridicule to win. However, if on the other hand, he can keep debating, he makes a fine case for why some of the best and brightest that the Christians have to offer, have yet to come up with a sound or plausible defense against Atheism. In other words, I am not a fan fo what this dude posts nor do I agree with him on anything, but got to admit, he does make a strong case for why Atheism seems to be such a rational alternative.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Were your parents atheists? Were you raised in an atheist church? Why did you become an atheist? For real. Were you raised in the Christian church, then shacked up with some guy, thus the morals went first then the doctrine. And now atheism justifies your sin and God is not accountable to your wickedness. Is that about how it went?

For me it was after I started murdering abortion clinic doctors and molesting little boys. Oh wait, that's you... never mind.