Tuesday, June 12, 2012

she said, he said!

why not Canada? why not Canada, indeed!?!

my good buddy Rob sent me an email today and included a link to an article at survivalblog.com. the article is entitled "Why Not Canada?", by C.N. it is an excellent article and i suggest that you all read it!

C.N. does a fantastic job of explaining why Canada seems a natural choice as a perfect bug-out location. many of the points he raises have been discussed by myself and jambaloney many times and it's one of the main reasons that we have shared our physical address with so many of our American friends - if it all goes to h*ll in a handbasket - get yer butts up here. anywhere in Canada!!! even in our largest city of Toronto, just drive 3 hours north and you will hit the flat-out wild wilderness!

JWR notes at the end of C.N.'s excellently-written article that the reason why Canada is an objectionable place to bug-out to is because of our gun laws. and jambaloney and i think that it is high-time to get into this discussion. i have had the gun law discussion with many of my American friends, some whom were more knowledgeable about our gun laws, than others.

first off - there are 7 million guns in Canada (i had to type over the word "weapon", as i was trained in the military to NEVER call my weapon a gun!). next - in Canada, there are two classes of what our government calls firearms. these are restricted and non-restricted firearms. now that the long-gun registry has been abolished, the only fire-arms that have to be registered are restricted fire-arms (for more detailed information, see the Canadian Firearms program).

the basic difference between restricted and non-restricted firearms can be summarized like this: non-restricted firearms are what you would use to hunt animals. restricted firearms are designed to kill people. as an example, there is no "hunting for dinner" with a snub-nosed .38 police special, if you get my drift.

jambaloney has his non-restricted PAL (Possession and Acquisition License), which means he can go into any store that sells non-restricted firearms and buy a bunch of guns and a pile of ammo by just showing his card. once you have your PAL, it's as easy as that. you may not agree that requiring a PAL is necessary based on your Second Amendment Rights, however; the purpose of a PAL is to ensure that law-abiding citizens in Canada are sufficiently trained to operate a firearm - hey, in both of our countries you need a license just to drive a car! i guess, to the majority of Canadians, we feel that you should be required to have a license to own and properly use a firearm, too.

maybe some of the reasons that there are a lot of Canadians who don't feel it's necessary to walk around carrying restricted firearms can be explained in a few different ways:

- we have never experienced a revolution in our country, nor have we ever experienced a civil war
- the violent crime rate in Canada has always been statistically-low
- as is pointed out in C.N.'s article, the majority of Canadians don't feel hemmed in and can always get away for a weekend or a lifetime to a very low-populated and even remote, place. heck, our government will pay you extra to go to some of those places!
- we may be called pacifists or timid people if you like those terms, but you should really reconsider as we have sent our superbly-trained military everywhere in the world, whenever it was asked of us - and our military is made-up of ordinary Canadians!
- and lastly, as strange as this may seem, the majority of Canadians will bitch, whine and moan about our government and it's practices the same as any American. the difference is, we really are just bitching, whining and moaning. the majority of us are very happy with the social services and benefits at our disposal.

before i pass you off to jambaloney, i want to state my personal opinion. i would have no trouble blowing a hole through someone who was threatening me or my family. however; the chance of that ever happening, for the majority of Canadians, is very slim. and i think that's why we don't feel the need to hoard and store restricted firearms, or carry a gun with us at all times. please, this is my Canadian opinion and i truly understand and empathize with the American position. in fact, if i lived in the US, i would want as many guns as i could have. and there's the rub.

jambaloney
here!

first
off, i would like to say that the course i took to get my PAL was an excellent
use of time and money. It is a 2 day course that is both in-course and
hands-on. the course covers all types of firearms including even black
powder rifles. it is historical, legal and practical. kymber may have been in
the military, but there are basic things about firearms that i know that she
doesn’t. and by basic, i mean more like algebra and less like religion ;-)

(Kymber edits: i know
about military-grade weapons – trust me! But i know diddely-squat about guns!)

on the PAL course,you do in-class lessons, handling
of a variety of firearms, thenyou take the
test and if you pass both written and hand’s on with above 80% in each, they
submit your application for you. i paid $160.00 for the course and 50.00 for
the license. there were people in the course that i secretly hoped would
fail, based on the questions they asked in class, and more than likely, they did! if you think about a gun like
a car, i am sure you all know people that shouldn’t drive… i mean, shoot.
if you are interested, here is the course manual for non-restricted firearms, i
am sure you all would agree that is good stuff for a gun-owner to know:

i
came out of that course with a great overall summary of firearms, some great safety training and a license with which it
is super easy to buy a wide variety of firearms and ammo – by mail if i want,
now WITHOUT having to register them. here is a major Canadian supplier (scroll
down to hunting):

handguns
require a separate licence and are, well, restricted.. you have to register
them and notify the RCMP if you are transporting them, etc. i don’t feel i need
one anyway, not a lot of people get shot in Canada, they really don’t. almost all that do are dispatched quite
effectively with hunting rifles.

i
guess that overall point is, the government doesn’t prevent me from owning a
gun, it only regulates that ownership and not in a way that makes it difficult
to obtain one… i had a LOT more of a hassle getting a driver’s license and i am more afraid of being killed by a
vehicle than i am bya gun. i don’t need to get
insurance for my rifles, there are less moving parts than truckdura and
if my rifle breaks down, i can simply carry it home.

jwr
implies that our gun laws make Canada
a less than stellar choice to retreat to when things collapse… i maintain the
opposite is true… i would want to be where there are less guns when SHTF,
not more. the logic is flawed, you are safer from your fellow human in Canada
anyway, it will be even more acute if things break down… there is ALWAYS a place further down the river to go to where
there is no-one.

and
fresh water to drink..

now,
jwr also suggests that BC is a great place to go. check out the climate data in
the following link:

the
difference is almost negligible, it IS a bit more temperate in the winter but
boy does it rain in Bella Coola – i’m talking 3,214
days out of 365 a year!

my
point is that these places are both in Canada and are 4500 miles apart. in
between there is a climate for almost anyone. true there are very cold places
in Canada, but try northern MINN in January ;-))

it
is as if jwr didn’t read the article, the real selling points for Canada are
space, water, location and food.. these are key survivalist
“must-haves”.. so you can’t own a .357 magnum in Canada right now… take solace in
your .444 marlin, your .22 and your 12 GA shotgun, if you must . when
SHTF, everything else you need will be on your doorstep...in Canada.

You 2 should send this in to survival blog as a Re: article. It has valid points if you look at it from a non American standpoint. Most of us believe our guns should not be regulated in any manner. The Right to bear arms and all that but our constitution is different than yours.

thanks – we may indeed send it in. your constitution IS different and these kinds of things go a long way to defining national characters. we don’t have anything like the right to bear arms, so there is no “fundamental” debate on that matter. we are far more likely to freak out when there are changes to our health care system.

hey its like been 95 in the shade all week. I love it cold. At least there you can throw another log on the fire and another quilt on the bed.

I don't qualify for health care debates since I have the best health care in the country. Everything is covered and I pay only 2 bucks for my prescriptions. Course I earned that health care but every once in a while there are grumblings about taking that away.

Seriously if you can't kill someone with a hunting rifle what makes you think you can kill them with a handgun? Something to think about.

The best reason not to bug out in Canada is deportation. If you, an American, are found in Canada in excess of the 6 months a year permissible for visitation under law, or you are caught trying to work, they will deport you. Canada, unlike the US, does an excellent job of protecting the jobs of its countrymen, which are limited, and of preventing a run on its healthcare. Canada enjoys its 10% of the population of the US, and regulates immigration very efficiently. As an American, enjoy Canada whenever you can, but understand that immigration is a much more difficult and expensive matter. We own a home there, and I am not completely convinced that if we declared our intent to live there permanently that this would be permitted.

you have a real point – i have looked into this and was surprised to find that these days, unless you are a bona-fide refugee, it is hard to get into Canada permanently. when i was a kid, it was a lot easier. times do change. maybe someday they will change in your favour ;-)

Jane - it is so hard for an American blue-collar worker to get into our country - and the majority of Canadians wish it wasn't so. this is an issue that we, as Canadians, must tackle in our next election. we love our American brothers and sisters and wish that it were easier for them to immigrate here, if they so desire! xoxoxoxox

What about us old farts that are re-tired. ( spelled it that way cause I was out working and got tired. Then I rested a while and went back out and got re-tired.) We sure are not going to snag your jobs.

Of course if We had to Bug out to Canada...then that means that society as we know it has gone to crap and SHTF,and there is no government structure as we know it. So to heck with immigration and deportation issues, the system will be so screwed that no one will be able to keep up.

Tongue in cheek, I think my family and I should be able to come to live in Canada for several basic reasons. 1. I know all the words to, and can sing, "Canadian Please". (For the rest of you, you can go to YouTube and see "Canadian Please" at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWQf13B8epw )

2. I can sing the Canadian National Anthem, and can do so, well.

3. One of my favorite singers is Lara Fabian, and although she was originally Belgian, is Canadian now, and lives in Outremont, PQ

4. We bought a little house there. 5. We like eating at Tim Hortons.

I think upon meeting such criteria, we should be invited to live there, at least before Emperor Obama kicks us out for questioning his uneven plans and policies on the internet as well as with our Congressman ! LOL

Jane - bahahahahahah! but yes, i agree that you and your family should be able to live here, no questions asked! anyone outside of Canada that knows the lyrics to "Canadian Please" is a shoe-in for Canadian citizenship!!! i LOOOOOVE that song and video! numbers 2, 3 and 5 also make you a shoe-in for sure! but the mere fact that you had the good sense to buy a house in Nova Scotia - ah buddy - you aren't just Canadian - yer a Maritimer! and there is none so fierce, patriotic and proud of being Canadians than Maritimers!!!

LOL - O.K. so you can only bugout for six months, and if it is winter time your going to be an icicle the entire time.

And the fact that Parlimentarian systems with no constitiutional bill of rights (last I checked the Canadain "Bill of Rights" is a statute) so that the permisablity of firearms can come and go like the wind.

I stand corrected. However, Charter of Rights appears to have no specific rights with regards to firearms.

Never say never. Look at Australia and 1996.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

Parlimentary systems have a history of getting things done quickly, but they also have a history of abusing that power. The classic example of course is the Nazi's who took over Germany through their position within a "conservative" ruling coalition.

You may not have had a revolution but many a Canadian has roots to the one down here. The problem is they were on the wrong side so a Constitution would not take hold. Like Russ I would be hesitant to live in a Parliamentary system. While there may not yet be enough city dwellers to disrupt the "pragmatism" it only took a few decades here. Things change fast.

And it is too Damned COLD.

Before you say "it really isn't that cold here"... Every Canadian says that and they LIE!!! It's friggin COLD.

I will admit it maybe a good bug out location, after the fact the differences in governance and such won't matter but after a short while the remoteness would also begin to cause other issues.

Now if Global warming is a fact it maybe a really great place to be in a few years :)

When I was in Ottawa it only went to minus 40 F. Gosh it was fun walking across the Interprovincial Bridge at that temperature. So I packed up for a post doc in warmer IllNoise where it hit merely minus 67 F that winter. Yep, sure was warmer in the states. Maybe it was all them Demoncrats in IllNoise that made it so chilly.

OK the truth is there was an unfortunate incident involving what is actually an imported beer in Windsor at a strip club several years ago. I still say a beer advertised as brewed in Canada is not an import if you are in Windsor. Seriously those people think they are in Detroit or something.

Anyway one thing lead to another and a quick dip and frantic swim across that river they call a lake (at that point anyway) and well let's just say my Canadian visitation privileges are in limbo at the moment ok.

PP - it gets seriously cold in some parts of Canada - nothing that a warm igloo and wearing polar bear skin can't fix! but in more temperate climates, like ours for example, where the temps never dipped past -10C and that was only one night this past winter. oh and we don't consider Windsor to be in Canada - bahahahahah!

Winston - you know it gets dang cold in Ottawa! so glad to not be there anymore as i am sure you are, too!

Thanks for including me in your story. Mostly hell yes it get cold in MN. In Florida you can only take off so much clothes to cool off. In Mn in the winter you wear every piece of clothes and put on every blanket on the bed you have to stay warm.

I was so enthralled with Canada that I drove my Canadian friend NUTS asking questions. Living in Indiana, it would have been a hop to get there. It is (to me) safe and sane. Here, we live on top of each other unless we're in farm country (where I WAS). In Florida, having a shotgun or rifle doesn't allow safety when driving...or surrounded by windows as we are. My weapon of choice back home was a Mossburg. Here, it is definitely my 9mm for the car and the .357 for the house.

lotta joy - i can certainly understand why people would want to carry their weapons living in some of your big cities - it would be scary not to! but up here in Canada - unless you are living in one of our 5 big cities - then you are living in the boonies! it's all boonies up here outside of the cities!

p.s. My military dad and brother drilled me from the age of 8 in self-defense, although all I could think of was hurting the other person and getting killed in revenge. Now that I'm older, I doubt I could now crush anyone's larynx with the heel of my hand, or drive their nose into their brain, but I can definitely blow a hole in their 'plans'.

Canada is my bug out location if it goes to h#ll here and it is no longer safe in the states. I have a friend that has already state we are welcome along with all our animals. Then again we have acquired a few more since then so I might just be heading to your house. - Genevieve

Hey Kymber & Jambaloney - In 1997, when I became a Canadian citizen, it was an honor to become a part of this fine country. I believe it to be one of the best places on this earth to call home. We have what European countries are lacking - space to breathe, fresh water supplies, natural resources, and land to grow our food.

I personally would welcome any of our American neighbors to come here and bug out - if they needed or wanted too. There's plenty of land here for us to share.

I don't know that much about guns, but my husband does. He has a non - restricted, a restricted ,and a prohibited PAL. He has the prohibited, because he has a handgun with a two inch barrel, that was purchased before the new laws took effect.

It is his belief, and mine, that everyone that is going to own a firearm SHOULD be required to pass a firearms Safety Course. He has always had a love for firearms and enjoys shooting at the range.

One last thing - The length of stay for a Canadian in the United States is also 6 months. Some regulations are the same for both countries, while others are very different. I'm with you Kymber - we have great social services and benefits at our disposal when needed. And, Bella Coola is extremely wet for most of the year - way too wet !

Helga - you are the kind of Canadian that this country loves! you are kind of new to the Canadian game - the rest of us immigrants have been here 100-200 years - but the majority of us all came from Europe at one time or another!

and yes - we have much land, water and natural resources to share - i feel the same way as you - if my American friends need to bug out - then come up here!

thank you for sharing that you hubby has a non-restricted, a restricted and a prohibited PAL - i think it is important for people who don't understand our gun laws know that owning these types of weapons is not impossible - you just have to get the proper licensing!

your beliefs are our beliefs and i think that based on our laws, they reflect the majority of Canadian's beliefs on licensing and firearms safety!

and yes - thanks for pointing out that the length of stay for either nationality in both countries is the same. however, it is very difficult for Americans to get work visas and/or immigrate to Canada. lastly - our services and benefits are some of the best in the world!

love always to you honey - thanks for your thoughtful reply - it is very appreciated!

kymber and jambaloney - thanks very much for a well-thoughtout and articulated posting. I completely agree with both of your thoughts, especially on the licensing and training before any purchase of firearms of any kind. Your post is absolutely spot on and pertinent, and as well said as it could have been said.

However, there are always those nit-pickers and contrarians that will find fault with anything. I agree with Stephen and love Canada. Of course my family has many roots in Canada. At the time of the revolution, many families went north and many stayed in the colonies. We all get along fine now.

If I had the opportunity I would have a home in Canada and be a citizen there, and I believe many, many US Americans feel that way. Perhaps one day, laws will change for the better.

Rick - thank you very much for your well-thought out comment. i have been looking into our immigration laws and it seems that we have really been getting strict on Americans since they are not suffering from any kind of refugee situation and/or political persecution. we, as Canadians, need to address this situation and change these laws. i can't speak on behalf of all Canadians, but i feel confident in saying that as a people, we have a special relationship with the American people and they should be able to come to our country if they so desire!

Seeing that I have always favored the right of our citizens to own rifles and shotguns and not handguns/assault rifles/machine guns/etc, I think we could learn a thing or two about Canada's laws. I think handguns still have their place but I in favor of having to go through more hoops to obtain one. I love my shotgun and it will probably be the only gun I ever own.

Ed - i couldn't agree more! as noted above, Helga's husband has a restricted and a non-restricted PAL, as well as a Prohibited PAL. you can certainly get a license for restricted/prohibited weapons here - it's just that you must license them and take the requisite courses.

and buddy - there ain't a good 'ol boy up here in Canada that don't love his shotgun - bahahahah!

It's not so much the Revolution that keeps us up in arms, but the wild west mentality that we hold so dear. On a side note, I just love how Canadian media blames the US whenever you have a shooting fatality. Culturally, things change. Americans are raised on a wild west can-do spirit. Unfortunately with the lack of appropriate father figures, that rich culture becomes twisted. But going on about that subject would require an entire post. So I digress, we each our comfortable with what we grow up in. Canadian laws suit Canadians well because that is what they are immersed in. Americans struggle within because it feels like things have been taken from us. And we do not tolerate theft, well the majority of us. Laws in the US also vary greatly from State to State. Some have conceal and carry, you must have a permit for. Some have open carry, also permit. Some have stricter laws than others. Here, our rifles and shotguns are on display in our trucks windows. And most of us have a healthy respect for guns and other weapons. Is that handful few that law matters little to, that give Americans a bad name.

As for Canada being a good bug out, it really would depend on the individual. Personally I encourage people to head south. Get them further away from me. :) plus the attitude that seems to be on display is that your countrymen would rather not have us uneducated, uncultured gun trotting fools in your Country. That in itself could cause clashes that would be better avoided. Teach your accent to anyone showing up at your place, help keep them safe!

Personally I will bug in, here in Kansas. The growing season is long enough, while the winter is hard enough to keep people moving on. Not to say I wouldn't visit.

I enjoyed your article. You both did very well explaining things, and keeping a healthy debate going. Huzzah!

Phelan - you raise some very interesting and thought-provoking points! it is true - American history, the can-do spirit and thereby it's culture certainly plays a role in your people being considered "gun-totin' Americans" - and that is not a bad thing in any way! i think you have hit the target in noting that the family breakdown also has much impact! i can honestly say that i have never met a "gun totin' American" and i have been throughout your country. all of the Americans i have met have, as you say, a healthy respect for weapons! i couldn't agree more!

as for bugging out - i think my next post will be about encouraging people to head south - thanks for the tip - bahahahah!!!! oh and you know who says "Huzzah!" back at ya!

Wow guy, you really outdid yourselves on this post. I love the way you tag teamed it from two different yet similar perspectives.My foot has never stepped on foreign soil, but when I do it will be Canada. I think the main reason I have not yet is because I might not ever come back.Good job guys.

MDR, buddy - thanks! we thought that since the article appeared on survivalblog about bugging out to Canada, that it was time to share some information so that people who weren't really aware of our laws could become more informed. we both felt that JWR's note at the end of the article did a dis-service to the article.

Guns are always a hot topic. We own several,handguns,rifles,muzzle loaders,etc.As my hubby tells me when I ask him why we need so many,each one has it's purpose (hunting speaking). Would we use a gun to protect our home? Yes. Do we worry about it? No.Do we care about having to have a permit to carry concealed? No. Thanks for posting about such a topic...very interesting to read about Canadian laws and your viewpoints.

Donna - thanks! you are correct - it is always a hot topic! it is true that you want different weapons for different reasons - and yes - we would also use our weapons to protect ourselves as well. i am glad that you found it interesting to read - thanks for that!

i am posting this incredibly well-thought out comment from my friend Jennifer - i hope that everyone reads this:

After taking far too long to write up the background between the two nations with pros and cons on both sides of the debate on gun rights etc, I decided I need to be more direct with the post you wrote as well as the one that led to your post.

I will address the other issues that I think may cause Canada not to be the ideal bug out place...and save the gun debate for others. I am repeating some thoughts but thinking as I type. Please excuse any typos etc, I work best when I write fast...:)

1. The northern border of the US is sparsely populated. Just as Canada is on its northern border. Like you stated the bulk of the population is near the US border for a reason. It is not because we are best of chums as countries-although we are very similar and cousins for sure. It is directly due to the weather. In a bug out situation people will already be under duress and acclimatizing to arctic temps will not be easy, nor will the lack of growing season that many Americans have come accustomed to....Winter is unforgiving and without serious preps survival will be sketchy even with a weapon. Oh and the sparseness will be a detriment as unknown territory and terrain will lead to more issues.

2. Bugging out is not a joke. Leaving all one knows and heading elsewhere means something pretty darn devastating is going on. You know a major military event etc, and guess what, each nation involved will be sure to secure the crossings at their borders. So although entering illegally to the US may seem a joke, I am not sure if Canadian government is as lax or will tolerate a ton of preppers crossing over. This is not play army and although many preppers are former military, their families are not, and stealthily crossing into the land of unknown is not going to be like the Jason Bourne movies.

3. I cannot seem to process what would allow for such a plan in ones finances...or time? Time, fuel, effort to head north may seem romantic and well darn rough and tough, but it is vast, and further north to many. If those on the border cross, what is the guarantee that Canada will allow or tolerate? And for that matter what about the Canadians? If all heck breaks loose, I imagine my Canadian neighbors will be thinking as I am...family first...others second(and a far far far far far second), and to preserve family I will stand with my fellow countrymen than those even from Canada (or vise versa). Now when I say this, I mean, I know the rancher down the road. I do not know Cal the Canadian. I have and will stand with the rancher, as we share a dynamic due to neighborly events over the years. Strangers will be seen as a problem, no matter how much you have to offer. Oh and if you have wee ones or not so strong...sigh, the truth of crises is not as noble and honorable as we wish.

4. You have shared your window to your life and invited folks to come, but you and I both know how hard it is to live the lives we have both chosen. Most preppers that have stated they are prepared could not live how you or I live, and what happens when it is too hard and you have more folks than food? We know our neighborhoods, our regions and our backyards, we do not know yours.

5. We do not know the predators, the edible foods, the healing herbs available in Canada . We can prep all we want but is our prep in vain to go so far from what most know? Trust me, the climate is far different, the predators are dangable big...and as lovely as it seems winter needs to be less harsh and long in crises times so one can regather and begin a growing season. Now those up north are and have adapted. I am speaking to those of us not on a border US/Canada state.

6. It is in each country's best interest to know who is where and why they are there. The sheer low numbers of population is also a light shone on those that flee north, as everyone knows everything the smaller the population, regardless of distance. I live 67 miles from El Paso Texas , but know a good deal of information about many of the folks between here and there. We cannot help ourselves as humans we blab. Now, saying that I am able to secure my privacy by playing home court rules. I know the customs here and play by our unspoken rules, and my personal farm is ignored-yet I promise you it is on the known radar as this is how things are. In Canada folks will take note to trees being cut, fires going in empty regions etc. and folks will talk.

7. I will briefly address the political differences of our nations We are like a wife and an ex wife of Britain . USA is the ex wife. We left, and dangit we took the sink, the children and tossed all of Britain 's crap out and we kept the house, the pool, the sexy pool guy, and all the assets. Canada is the wife and so you admire and share the beliefs of Britain . You love the programs offered by the government as much as I love that I can do it on my own or I do not need it. Canada has never had a civil war or revolution is true but kind of not true. You see Canadians participated in the revolution-just not with the Americans. They stood with their husband...while we left. I suppose we were both wives at one point so our sisterhood remains. But, your ancestors are alive and well in our text and we weren't too happy with them...no matter why they stood, we saw them as traitors. As to a civil war, well you benefited as a nation as did the world from our slavery. Now when I say our slavery I wear this as every American should-NOT with shame, but of a world historical sadness. The western world was all in the biz of slaves. Our nation decided to play tit for tat on which state would be admitted to union slave state free state ...which along with many other issues resulted in a war. Most Americans cannot trace a relative back to a slave owner(although Barack Obama's mother's family can be traced back to slave owners). Canada as well as many northern US states offered stops or were the last place in the Underground Railroad granting hope to fleeing slaves.

Canada is attached to the US and for the 20th century that has been a good thing as we both appreciate and understand what this means. Canada will never be invaded... Now in the 21st century we are seeing that being a land neighbor to the US is not a guaranteed ending of any wars beginning, as the drug war in MEXICO is real and believe me the casualties are high, so America seems to be lessening her strength. If I were Canadian this would concern me, as the safety of being side by side the military might of the US has been breached by gangland guerrilla violence...if it is happening in Mexico it may soon come to you.

(this is the last of my friend Jennifer's comment):I also do not wish to get into too much of a why this is better or that is. Our unique weapon rights or Canada 's licensing stands. I cannot imagine the ease of one with the prepper mindset adapting to the loss of something preppers of all Americans really understands and appreciates. Americans understand the 2nd Amendment. Moving to a new nation means learning new laws. Bugging out there means all we understand about the legal or constitutional rights we have do not exist. This is the number one warning we give to all those that wish to visit the farm then head to Mexico, as jail in Mexico is open for things that would never place one in one here...so one nations rules and laws do not fit all. So bugging out with differing gun laws may compromise or even lead to the arrest or detention of those that bug out north.

8.Bugging out should be made with the understanding that it is a hectic crises that causes this action...adding so many things that could lead to a failed bug out(translation-maybe death) would be asinine.

To recap...I love Canada . I love Kymber and Jambaloney. But the climate is not as diverse it is cooler year round, and cold winters is a big key to remember. Taking weapons would be a risk as well as planning to get them once there. Remoteness sounds great but truly have you checked out where you are? In my area, there are tons of locations that are options-with water etc. that do not require me to possibly violate any laws, and in worse case scenarios, I understand my region-climate etc, to grow, and actually have a migration route to maintain while following the seasons here.

Remember this-in haste, plans are never as sound as rational thought. If one still sees the viability and compatibility in heading north then do so. For me, I will pray that someday I can meet with J and K...but not to be their neighbors in bugging out chaos central, but because I cherish them and would love to truly connect.

bit of trivia-it seems like Canada has 30 guns per every 100 people whereas US has 90 guns per every 100 people (source) which is always good to know when entering new areas etc.

Hope this makes sense. I love that I share sisterhood with my northern friends...I pray my thoughts do not offend, and my synopsis of American history is not to slight another and even though I used the word traitor-as we were taught, I bet that England teaches it the other way. No sweat we all are strong in understanding differing viewpoints strengthen our own resolve.

Jennifer - i now kinda wish i had have posted your comment as a whole new blog post - bahahah! wow - very thought-provoking indeed. you have really nailed out some very good points that anyone with half a brain can understand and relate to. i do not need to say that i agree, this is a good point, etc. etc.

i like your comparing Canada and America as the ex-wife and wife - but hey, couldn't we have kept the pool boy - bahahahahah!

and yes, i would think that England thinks that Americans are traitors, but i think that most Canadians just think that you were a bunch of rowdies causing a bunch of trouble and got us involved in it too! and based on the comments so far, everyone has been civil and understanding and by learning different viewpoints we certainly strengthen our resolve.

thank you very much for such a well-written response. now go clean one of you assault rifles, ya crazy gun-totin' American!!!! (bahahahahaha! oh i couldn't help myself!!!)

For your information the assault rifles have been cleaned. I do declare that the M2 Bradley needs some dusting out, and golly if the tactical armor doesn't smell to high heaven with the heat spell we have been having!

ps...the pool is pretty nice(and the pool guy~ well :). But you do share the Niagara Falls with us, as we weren't totally heartless, so Let's Roll out the Barrel!

bahahahahahahah! oh my goodness - bahahahahahaha! i should have known that the assault rifles would be kept tip-top. i have to say that i am little disappointed that you haven't been keeping the Bradley cleaned - tsk tsk, gurl!

I grew up in Alaska and I always in my mind envision Canada as a lot like AK. I have even visited Canada on more than one occasion. That said, I think that it has that wilderness appeal and people imagine living like pioneers. I wonder what the health care is like and how socialistic it is. Canada always seems like such a quiet country and never really is in anyone else's business. What would it be like in Canada if the SHTF here in America? We all need passports now, not like it used to be when I visited, and don't all passports now have the microchip in them so the gov't can track you? Lots to think about. Gun laws included.

Rose - i think that a lot of people think of Canada as being like Alaska and the majority of Northern Canada is - very sparsely populated, wide open spaces, very few people. however, Canada has a lot of space between 45-49N which is quite temperate, and covered with vast tracts of forest, fields, plains, hills, valleys, mountains, etc. - so it is very wilderness appealing! we have very good health care up here and the majority of it is free! i think that JUGM's comment above sums it up regarding needing passports and whatnot - she said that if SHTF, it will mean the collapse of society and there probably won't be too many people checking passports at that time. thanks for your thoughtful comment!

Why on earth would any rational Canadian invite Americans to invade their country? We are the most selfish, narrow minded people in the world I think...

I am almost 60 years old, and in that time have never found it necessary to own, hold or fire a gun. The thought of it appalls me. I live in the country, have most of my life. I do not understand the American obsession with firearms, and probably never will. I know that some people want them for hunting food, but not the majority.

They want them because they are afraid. It's FEAR pure and simple. Worried that someone is going to take something that is theirs. Afraid that someone is coming after them. Scared that they are vulnerable. We have some of the worst cases of fear mongering I have ever seen in this country. It's amazing...

I absolutely stand with gun laws. It sounds like the Canadian laws have been carefully thought out. Statistics prove that nations with stricter gun laws have less crime. It only makes sense.

I believe that if you live in constant fear, you will attract that into your life. If you live in harmony, you will attract that. Not a hard choice for this old girl...I live in the country, I tend my gardens and flowers and I dream of a day when people can live in love and not in fear.

Have to agree with eagergridlessbeaver. Don't talk too highly of Canada or you'll have everyone and anyone trying to enter - legally or illegally. Then you'll be left with a place like everywhere else :)

Have to confess, Canada and New Zealand are two places I have never had the opportunity to visit (and I've only ever been to (born in) England, Germany and South Africa) but I REALLY would love to. Guess I never will now - given my age / financial status LOL So - all I can do is experience it through your blog - thanks :)

As far as weapons are concerned, they have just re-done the gun licence laws here, and made it harder for people to possess one. Contradictory, that is good and bad, as there are those who are hell-bent on doing wrong with them, and there are those who need them / want them for self-protection from the baddies. Peace on earth could solve that conundrum, but until that happens, RMan is keeping his...

Dani - egb is right and we should stop advertising! it's just that we felt that JWR's note at the bottom of C.N.'s article did a complete dis-service to the actual content of the article and dismissed several valid points. and as Phelan reminded me - we should be encouraging everyone to head south - bhaahaha!

i like that blogs give us all a chance to see different places around the world and experience different ways of living, different cultures, etc. and i get to experience that from your blog too!

You may not have much need for self defense in Canada.......yet, however in a SHTF situation, desperate people will kill for food. Make no mistake the most dangerous animal in the world is a desperate human. I will also bet if it comes to TEOTWAWKI, guns will come out of the woodwork in Canada or anywhere else for that matter. JMHO. Duke.

Dear Duke - your opinion is very valued. and i couldn't agree more that there are guns in the woodwork in Canada that will definitely come out. i hope to goodness that i never encounter one of those dangerous animals - but if i do - there is a hole going through him. and his friends. thanks for your comment, buddy!

I've been reading the responses for the past couple of days - everyone has very valid points and I can easily accept the opinions you've had posted. My thought is this....for most of us, a BOL is either where we currently are at and are comfortable that it would be our best location in a SHTF situation. Or it's a location we intend to go to in the same SHTF situation. If you're already in your BOL, you're lucky and I envy you. I'm still working very hard to make mine a full time home. The point I was getting to (and I really was getting there.....lol) is that if the situation is bad enough that I'm leaving my home/family/neighbors/etc. to go to my BOL, I'm going to assume that the situation is REALLY bad. I think laws will be more "suggestions" and anyone who doesn't realize that the thin veil of civilization would be ripped off of society is living in a dream world. I've seen women have complete meltdowns over a bagger in the grocery store crushing her loaf of bread. What's going to happen when the grocery stores are gone and these people have to learn to fend for themselves? At that point in time, I think borders will become history and folks will flock to where they feel safe - someplace they can hunker down/hide until it's over or someplace they can become more self sustaining or somewhere they just feel safe. I own guns. I own several guns. I know how to shoot/maintain/load/unload my guns. I have never had to point one at another human being and, God willing, never will. But I don't intend to find myself in that SHTF situation without protection. Personal choice and one that I'm glad I had the right to make for myself.

hey Maxine - thanks for stopping in and leaving your point of view! yes, we understand that we are very fortunate to already be in our BOL and we understand that not everyone can even have a BOL. however, we traded all of the niceties of living in a beautiful city, in a beautiful house, and both of us making lots of moola because we had prepped as far as we could and when we hit the next level - it made sense to put our money where our mouths were. we came to the conclusion that if we truly thought we needed a BOL - then shouldn't we be there?

i agree. if people are at the point of needed to bug-out - then the situation must be bad! and in that situation, laws and rules and all of that good stuff will fall to the wayside. if it all goes to h*ll in a handbasket, we are suggesting that if anyone can make it to Canada - Canada is as safe a place to be as anywhere and as has been previously noted by many - there are way less guns up here, lots of land, lots of water and a bunch of people who already live very self-sufficient lives by homesteading, hunting and fishing.

the whole point of our post was to defend C.N.'s article - his article contained very salient facts that JWR seemed to dismiss. and then referenced our gun laws of which he seems to not be well-informed in. so we wanted to let our readers know more about our gun laws. our gun laws help to ensure that people receive proper instruction and training. but see my Dear friend Duke's comment below...he is correct about licensing laws being used against many "citizens" in the past.

i am glad that you have protection and know how to use it. i hope that you will never have to find out what it feels like to have to shoot another human being. thank you for your well thought out comment Maxine. i appreciate it.

I wasn't going to say much but I decided to inject once more. Personally I believe we have a God given right to protect ourselves and our families and if that means owning guns, knives, rocks, bow and arrow etc then so be it. I think it is pure evil for government or anyone else to try and control my ability to survive and protect my family. If there are thugs which prey on innocent people then they forfeit their right to live in society and must either be punished by the authorities or dispatched by those who are armed much like a rogue animal. All laws, especially gun laws are designed to fix symptoms of a broken civilization. If everyone was like most of us laws would be unnecessary because we don't steal or rape or murder etc so don't tell me I can't have something, don't punish me or restrict me or even discourage me because I follow the law. If Canada passed a law tomorrow that all guns are to be turned in (much like Australia did a few years ago) Only fools would think the criminals and outlaws would give them up, by the same token criminals aren't filling out paperwork to get licenses so what is the purpose? I believe the the purpose is to be able to control us later if need be, read history, it has happened over and over before, like I said, gun laws have an evil intent....no other reason. Politicians love unarmed subjects.

Hi Duke - I just have to respond to your comment. I, as a law abiding Canadian citizen, totally agree with you on all of your viewpoints. The suits which are seated around the table in our Parliament, have passed laws which allow me to legally own and keep my non-restricted, restricted, and prohibited firearms. Then they turned the table and passed the most idiotic law ever.

I must lock and store all my ammo away from my guns. No gun can ever be kept loaded. Now, if I'm ever in a situation where it's do or die - I'm sure not going to have the time to be fumbling around to get at my ammo. Will I now be a vulnerable unarmed citizen, while the criminals bear illegal arms ? Simple answer - NO !

Dear Duke - i am so glad to see you back and injecting more - your personal opinion has always been important to me and i am enjoying the conversation and seeing the variety of viewpoints. i can only agree with all of the points that you make as i feel the same way myself. however, i live in Canada and up to now, have wanted to maintain my status as a law-abiding citizen - therefore we need to take required courses and get required licenses.

there are several million people living in rural Canada right now who don't give a rats patootie about licensing weapons. they have had some of those weapons passed down from generation to generation and they feel that no 5-10 yr bureaucrat has the right to tell them anything about those weapons.

and trust me, buddy, no one up here believes that if we outlawed guns that criminals would turn them in! except for 6 people who live in BC, attended Woodstock and now occupy themselves tied to trees! i know what has happened throughout history to unarmed subjects and that is why i think that your opinion is right on target. thanks for coming back, buddy. it means a lot!

Anonymous - you hit it right on the head. and don't forget that all of your weapons must be stored in a locked gun cabinet and your ammo must be locked up separately. thank goodness we don't experience too many armed home invasions in Canada. can you imagine - someone is breaking in and there you are fumbling in the dark for the key to the gun cabinet, next running and fumbling to get the key for the ammo, hopefully this is an un-armed and very geriatric intruder!!!!

teeheeheee. i knew that whoever wrote the comment had a non-restricted, restricted and prohibited license. i also knew that the person felt pretty much the same way as most licensed Canadians feel about guns and ammo being kept separate. and i thoroughly loved your simple answer - bahahahahah!

if i had any doubts who you were up till now - you kind of let the cat out of the bag! it is so nice to see you here and thank you for weighing in with your "that's the way the majority of us Canadians think" comment. pshaw. we are all really nice and welcoming and we ALWAYS follow the rules!

i can't wait to meet you too. hurry up and retire and move 6 million miles across Canada to nowhere, happy land!

Hey, kymber dear. I really enjoyed the post. I have a very personal interest in Canadian attitudes regarding firearms. I know a thing or two about the great white North. :) We have a place to bug out up in Canada if we so choose, but it's entirely too far for us to realistically consider in a true but out situation. A few valid points were made in the previous comments. I think if it were a true SHTF situation, the laws wouldn't really matter so, as Duke said, they would come out of the woodwork and if people bugged out from down South they would just bring them. I have personally seen many firearms in Canada stored by normally law-abiding citizens that the long gun registration turned into criminals. Thank goodness that thing is gone. Also, there's bug out EOTW and bug out regional disaster. So, if it's the latter we'd probably get out of our regional hell and head north. Still a long way from you guys, but way closer than the present distance.

hey 45er buddy - thanks for chiming in! i know that you know a thing or two about Canada, Canadians and the way that we think being that you got yourself one - bahahahaha - you lucky dawg!!!! yes, i agree that the laws wouldn't matter one bit and people would be scrambling for grandpa's dusty, rusty shotgun from the shed - the rest of us would just turn to our trusty caches :)!!! yep - we were all happy to see the abolition of the long gun registration - now if we could just store our ammo with our weapons!!!! and yes - regional versus EOTW would definitely affect people's choices of bugging in/bugging out and or starting the million mile trek! thanks so much for your comment - you know that i appreciate it!

Hey hey from down South! Our farm is our bug out location. It gets us out of Houston (a huge population center) and it's pretty rural. That being said, if it was ever bad enough that even that is not good, I'm had always thought about coming North. Of course, we're closer to heading even further South, into Mexico. I suppose it would depend on what happened to make us want to go either direction. I appreciate the well thought out posting by you and Jambaloney. I'm not a gun person per se but that doesn't mean we don't have a few. And I'll make sure we have the proper ammunition at the farm. Thank you again for giving us lots to think about about.

hey 1st Man - you are one of the lucky few to actually have a BOL!!! and plans to move there full-time soon - i think that was a very smart investment on your part! and although heading south may seem like a good idea - warmer temps, long growing season, etc. - i think heading south is what the majority of people will do so that right there would make me think to head north! and yes - those kinds of decisions always depend on what the situation is. i am glad that you have a few weapons - they are tools of the trade when you live on a farm and may have to defend yourself, your family or your animals from attacking predators - whether they be of the animal or human variety! thank you for taking the time to comment - i wanted to hear your point of view!

I am late to this discussion. But, as you may have suspected, our gun laws do not deter criminals from possessing guns. Only an honest person like me would have a wait to possess a gun of any type. My main gripe is that we, as Americans, must register our guns. Next, will we have to register our Berkey water filters. Why does anyone need to know what I own. I do NOT like the answer that it is "for your own good."

Our "right to bear arms" attitude comes from the British attempts to forbid citizens from owning guns. In the early days of America, owning a gun meant security--food security. Being able to kill game and protect oneself from large predators was important. I can imagine that the ever-present threat of the British, French, and Spanish made guns seem like a necessary element in self-defense against people often bent on dispossessing us from our property.

If I owned a gun, I would have no qualms about blowing anyone to kingdom come if I felt a threat of bodily harm. I look harmless, but I could be ruthless and cold about protecting myself or others.

Do you have drive-by shootings anywhere in Canada?

As for moving to Canada, I would not. I want to wear sandals most of the winter. Anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line is out of my comfort zone. Yes, I like the South where in any large city a random stranger could kill me or eat my face.

I never have thought of Canadians as pacifists or wimps.

When I own a gun or guns, they will be stored loaded and unlocked! If my grandchildren came, they would be then locked up and still loaded. I grew up with loaded guns in a forbidden closet, my parents's closet. But, we were a generation of children who minded.

My sister slept with three loaded guns-a pistol under her pillow, a shotgun under her bed, and a handgun in the top dresser drawer. She fought an intruder in the kitchen who tried to drag her to the bedroom. She said she would have killed him if he had gotten her to the bedroom. She fought for her life in the kitchen so he would not lose his in the bedroom.

PracticalP - no worries about being late - i am glad that you came. we used to have a long-gun registry, but as you pointed out - only law-abiding citizens registered their guns and it has since, thankfully been abolished. we aren't crazy with licensing our guns but one good thing is the safety course that you are required to pass in order to get the license.

your "right to bear arms" has a long and colourful history to say the least - and of course, it makes perfect sense that your forefathers included it in your constitution. i have no doubt about your ability to protect yourself - with or without a gun - bahahahahah!

PP - you asked about drive-by shootings in Canada....jambaloney and i have just done some searches - his were general - i searched Statistics Canada - and those numbers just aren't there!?!?!!? there definitely are drive-by shootings here in some of our cities - but they are reported as one-offs and nearly all are gang-related. strange. if you are interested, here is a link to Stats Can document entitled "Homicide in Canada, 2010"...apparently there were 554 homicides in Canada that year.

yep - there is no sandal-wearing in Canada during the winter no matter how far south in Canada you live - yer just going to have to enjoy your warm clime and face-eating strangers - bahahahahah! that was a good one!

i think that your point about being a generation of children who minded is a very telling one. i think of all of the children who have taken their parent's guns to schools and whatnot and wonder - why didn't this happen regularly in the past? in the past, there were weapons in every pioneer/homesteading family's houses - why weren't more children taking guns to school then? and i think your point answers that question quite clearly!

i am glad that your sister was able to fight off the intruder - she must be tough as nails - kinda' like you! no worries about shutting up - you can blather as long as you like here!!! thanks for taking the time to leave such a great comment!

About Framboise Manor

Framboise Manor is our Bug-Out Location (BOL) that we have been living in since December 2010. As can be seen by the above picture - calling it simply a "Manor" doesn't do it justice - we bet you think it is more like an "Estate", eh?

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Who Are We?

we are jambaloney and kymber. here's a pic of us below...we look very happy and content. it's because we really are!

About jambaloney

(he's only 23 in this pic...he has 20+years of additional muscle now...if you can believe it!)

kymber here and talking about jambaloney.

i've always called him my angel. my rock. my best half. the best part of what i have always wanted to become.

he has a soul as big as the biggest mountain, he is strong, he is in incredible physical condition, he is 51 and yet most people think he is under 40. he is humble and modest, charming, gorgeous and will help anyone with anything at anytime. he never grumbles and only every now and again complains or is a tiny bit cranky (nothing that a hug can't fix!). he can cut both sides out of 70 tires in minutes, build raised beds from scrap wood that he drags out of the forest, weedwhack 800ft of our road down to the river, and haul more wheelbarrows of dirt, mulch, rocks and seaweed than is probably medically-advised. he's learned how to braid, make bread and no one makes better rice - not even the chinese. he supports my every, crazy endevour. he went 44 years without a driver's license and got his license after being trained by my crazily-wonderful french canadian friend in 2 weeks. she never stopped talking the whole time. in french.

he has biked everywhere his entire life, at one job he biked 24km EACH WAY. that's to and from! 24km to work AND 24km from work! oh and just accidentally has an honours degree in philosophy.

i believe that he is Our Lord's most beautiful and perfect creation. but i might be biased. he can very accurately shoot a ben pearson cougar re-curve from both the left and right. and his aim is dead on.

he is bow-legged and only 5'7", but has the most incredible eyes. and a tiny mole on his upper lip. he writes the most romantic "insta-poems". he tells me he loves me several times a day. he calls me "babe" and "honey". and he means it.he loves hot sauce and spicey things like cayenne and banana peppers, he buys (or now picks) me flowers, he left a lucrative, high-paying IT job and his family to follow me here to this remote little island. he builds me shelves and washes all of our laundry with me by hand.

oh and he was baptized Anglican. and was an alter boy. sheesh. somehow, through my intervention, i am turning him into a pagan-christian-fundamentalist-confuscian. look, even i can't figure that out!

the name jambaloney is a nickname that i gave him over 10 years ago. he still uses it. he can be reached at "jambaloney@gmail.com". he loves comments or emails. and he loves me.

if i were given the opportunity to wish one thing for the world - i would wish that every woman on the planet had a jambaloney. i know that i could save the world this way. i have friends who have asked me to clone him. i am trying. believe me, i am trying. one day i will perfect the science involved, and when that happens, i promise all of you a jambaloney.

i love him more than...breathing, lobster, boiled dinner, fresh bread out of the oven, bugging out, singing back up for Madonna (ok...i made that one up!), fresh sheets on the bed, a glass of red wine after a long day, sunflower seeds, lavender, growing my own potatoes, T.S. Eliot, dancing, my babies (who are really just cranky old cats!) and the Bible.

i love him more than i love Framboise Manor. and i really love Framboise Manor.

About kymber

(this pic might seem odd. trust me, it's not. 20 yrs ago kymber went shopping with a girlfriend from the military and bought this dress. then she hooked up with that girlfriend recently. they caught up through email and one day kymberz friend mentioned that specific dress. kymber said she still had it (kymber still has her prom gown for crying out loud!). the friend did not believe it. so we had to take a pic of kymber wearing the 20yr old dress for her friend. kymber always likes to add accessories...and well, we had the bunny ears laying around. ya know, cuz everyone always has pink bunny ears laying around. ok, that's it...i am out of here! jambaloney)

what can i say about kymber?? A LOT!!most of it will have to wait for blog entries ‘cuz i just don’t have enough space here to do her justice…

so i’ll have to do my best… first and foremost, kymber is my partner and i will love her forever. she is the best partner anyone could ever have, i am one lucky guy!! she is 46, she is sweet as can be, smart as a whip, super cute, exceptionally feminine, strong as an ox, honest, kind, empathetic, wise, an amazing dancer, a master wit in speaking and writing….i could go on..i will!

at 5’ 1’’ she packs a wallop – a true force of nature -she is a master gardener and chef and spent 10 years in the Canadian Military – she has done 2 tours of Alert (the north bloody-cold pole). she is a UN-certified Korean linguist and spoils our 2 cats rotten. she also spent 12yrs working in the federal government, as a communications analyst at SolGen (now PSEPC) and Fintrac. she loves nature in the true sense of the phrase..the wildflowers, insects and birds here at framboise manor keep her entranced and captivated for hours.

anyone who is her friend knows that she will stop at nothing to help and heal, dedication and loyalty are an integral part of who she is and she is dead serious about anything she puts her mind to. yet she maintains the most delicate touch and a smile on her face always, never afraid to live and love no matter where and when.

she is the most genuine human being i have ever met! and she has encouraged me to embark on the most crazy and exciting adventure i could imagine… thank you babe - i sooo love you!!!