but really though, the whole, shadowy enemy thing, to me suggests that he will be in the darkness most of the movie, maybe set up a third movie. But being a threat to odin and to asgard, to me, that sounds more like Surtur than Thanos

Here's the thing about Surtur, though: he doesn't "predate the universe itself," not by a long shot. Nor does he "plunge the world into darkness" --- he sets it on fire. Literally.

That synopsis seems to indicate (at least) two separate plots going on. First, he "battles to save Earth and all the Nine Realms from a shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself. In the aftermath of Marvel’s “Thor” and “Marvel’s The Avengers,” Thor fights to restore order across the cosmos." That sounds very much like the debut of Thanos, and the writers may make him even more ancient than the comics book do.

Then, you get a deliberate ellipsis...as in: "and then...." "but an ancient race led by the vengeful Malekith returns to plunge the universe back into darkness." As in, the second threat emerges with Malekith, Kurse and the Dark Elves.

The only two beings in the Marvel Comic universe that I know of that predate the universe are Galactus and TheOneAboveAll.

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Hmmm, well, it's not surprising that there would be some sort of background enemy in addition to the Dark Elves.

But... it could be a lot of things, I guess, based on that vague description. It reminds me a bit of something Feige (I think?) said a while ago about the loss of Bifrost throwing the Nine Realms out of balance, or something along those lines.

Anyway, sounds like this is going to be quite epic.

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam

....I love how just a few weeks ago everybody was shooting down my Surtur theory completely, and now you guys are jumping all over it.....bandwagoners.

Yeeeah, the villains in this movie are Malekith and Kurse, and you need to stop thinking that there might be some bigger threat involved in the...

Preeeeetty sure sam was saying that the third act of the movie would be an all out war between Surtur and Asgard, and that's what people were arguing against...

In part, yeah, but we were discussing, in more general terms, the idea that there would probably be some larger threat involved, in addition to the Dark Elves. And throwing around a few reasonably plausible ideas with regard to that.

Quite a few posters were jumping all over us for "complaining about the villains," etc. Anyway, now that we are starting to hear about the larger threat, I guess we can talk about it in peace

Surtur has always made a certain amount of sense, but the shadows and darkness aspect would be a little odd as a description of him. If it's an Asgardian-style villain, and not something cosmic, I guess it could be Hela. Maybe re-imagined somewhat from the comics version.

Edit: Having re-read the description, I still think Surtur is most likely. It's just intentionally vague. Sounds like he threatens earth and asgard, as in the comics, with maybe Asgard taking the big hit in the end.

Preeeeetty sure sam was saying that the third act of the movie would be an all out war between Surtur and Asgard, and that's what people were arguing against...

No one said he wouldn't have a behind-the-scenes presence.

It would be lame to try to stuff Surtur in his entirety on top of Malekith, Kurse, and the Dark Elves. Somebody would get short-changed in the process. I'm all for Surtur's presence felt, but as the bridge to Thor 3.

It would be lame to try to stuff Surtur in his entirety on top of Malekith, Kurse, and the Dark Elves. Somebody would get short-changed in the process. I'm all for Surtur's presence felt, but as the bridge to Thor 3.

Well, this came up before, but Surtur doesn't need to be in it much. He would be in the background, probably be the one who transforms Algrim into Kurse, and then he would emerge for the finale.

I'd say that's looking increasingly likely. Though there are other possibilities, of course.

There's no point in including Kurse if him fighting Thor and then turning on Malekith isn't the finale. A third act featuring a full-on appearance from Surtur makes the inclusion of Kurse entirely pointless.

There's no point in including Kurse if him fighting Thor and then turning on Malekith isn't the finale. A third act featuring a full-on appearance from Surtur makes the inclusion of Kurse entirely pointless.

I don't think so, necessarily. And my point isn't: they should do this, or they should do that. I'm looking forward to whatever it is, and they've already decided regardless.

But... all the pieces are there for the Surtur saga to be the basic story here. A looming threat that is too great even for Odin to deal with. The casket of ancient winters, Malekith, Algrim/Kurse.

It's still definitely possible that this movie will just be the first half of the story, though. And that could be the better choice. The thing is... Surtur is a "last act" sort of character anyway. He's never going to be around for the whole film.

but really though, the whole, shadowy enemy thing, to me suggests that he will be in the darkness most of the movie, maybe set up a third movie. But being a threat to odin and to asgard, to me, that sounds more like Surtur than Thanos

Except here's the thing: Surtur isn't in shadow. He's *never* in shadow. He's a Fire Giant in Muspellheim, and bathes permanently in molten lava. I don't see how terms like "dark" and "shadowy" could even remotely apply to a creature of pure flame.

The darkness that the synopsis refers to is not metaphorical; it is literal. This movie is about literal darkness....as it says, plunging the world into darkness. Darkness is not in Surtur's skillset. It *is,* however, within the bailiwick of The Dweller in Darkness. Who predates the universe. (And who is a straight ripoff of Cthulhu, by the way.)

Except here's the thing: Surtur isn't in shadow. He's *never* in shadow. He's a Fire Giant in Muspellheim, and bathes permanently in molten lava. I don't see how terms like "dark" and "shadowy" could even remotely apply to a creature of pure flame.

The darkness that the synopsis refers to is not metaphorical; it is literal. This movie is about literal darkness....as it says, plunging the world into darkness. Darkness is not in Surtur's skillset. It *is,* however, within the bailiwick of The Dweller in Darkness. Who predates the universe. (And who is a straight ripoff of Cthulhu, by the way.)

Didn't Thanos also try to cast the universe in darkness? He extinguished a few stars using one of the Infinity gems, IIRC.

There's no point in including Kurse if him fighting Thor and then turning on Malekith isn't the finale. A third act featuring a full-on appearance from Surtur makes the inclusion of Kurse entirely pointless.

Exactly. Too much. Having Surtur appear as the final 3rd act defeats to point have having Kurse.

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Originally Posted by Flemm

I don't think so, necessarily. And my point isn't: they should do this, or they should do that. I'm looking forward to whatever it is, and they've already decided regardless.

But... all the pieces are there for the Surtur saga to be the basic story here. A looming threat that is too great even for Odin to deal with. The casket of ancient winters, Malekith, Algrim/Kurse.

It's still definitely possible that this movie will just be the first half of the story, though. And that could be the better choice. The thing is... Surtur is a "last act" sort of character anyway. He's never going to be around for the whole film.

Nah lol

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Originally Posted by Crimson King

If he's in it for more than a few minutes, it's a waste. Talk about Surtur in TDW and maybe even show him, but the confrontation between him, Odin, and Thor should be held off until Thor 3.

Malekith and Kurse are plenty to carry this movie.

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Except here's the thing: Surtur isn't in shadow. He's *never* in shadow. He's a Fire Giant in Muspellheim, and bathes permanently in molten lava. I don't see how terms like "dark" and "shadowy" could even remotely apply to a creature of pure flame.

The darkness that the synopsis refers to is not metaphorical; it is literal. This movie is about literal darkness....as it says, plunging the world into darkness. Darkness is not in Surtur's skillset. It *is,* however, within the bailiwick of The Dweller in Darkness. Who predates the universe. (And who is a straight ripoff of Cthulhu, by the way.)

yeah, but don't take it so literally. The reason I think it points to Surtur is because, yeah of course shadow, and shade doesn't describe Surtur. But by "shadowy enemy" I actually do think it was metaphorically. I think it just meant, the behind the scenes threat. It is a synopsis, ya know? I think that it shouldn't be read into too deeply

Except here's the thing: Surtur isn't in shadow. He's *never* in shadow. He's a Fire Giant in Muspellheim, and bathes permanently in molten lava. I don't see how terms like "dark" and "shadowy" could even remotely apply to a creature of pure flame.

That's true. I'm not sure if the synopsis can be taken that literally, though. It would be odd for these characters to be assembled, and then have the looming threat be somebody completely unrelated to them. But... anything's possible.

It's perhaps worth noting that, in the comics, it's the Beyonder who turns Algrim into Kurse. Not that it's going to be the Beyonder, but... some other-worldly entity along those lines, I guess, maybe.

yeah, but don't take it so literally. The reason I think it points to Surtur is because, yeah of course shadow, and shade doesn't describe Surtur. But by "shadowy enemy" I actually do think it was metaphorically. I think it just meant, the behind the scenes threat. It is a synopsis, ya know? I think that it shouldn't be read into too deeply

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Marvel’s “Thor: The DARK World” continues the big-screen adventures of Thor, the Mighty Avenger, as he battles to save Earth and all the Nine Realms from a SHADOWY enemy that predates the universe itself. In the aftermath of Marvel’s “Thor” and “Marvel’s The Avengers,” Thor fights to restore order across the cosmos…but an ancient race led by the vengeful Malekith returns to plunge the universe back into DARKNESS. Faced with an enemy that even Odin and Asgard cannot withstand, Thor must embark on his most perilous and personal journey yet, one that will reunite him with Jane Foster and force him to sacrifice everything to save us all.

Sorry, but that ain't metaphor.
And the synopsis don't stutter when it says "enemy that predates the universe itself." You can count on the fingers of one six-fingered hand the cosmic entities who might fit that bill (Galactus, The One Above All, Dweller In Darkness, Eternity, The Watcher, The Living Tribunal). Thanos (a Titan) and Surtur (a Fire Giant) and Malekith (a Dark Elf) and Kurse (another Dark Elf in funky armor) don't even remotely come close to "predating the universe itself."

Yeah, being that Galactus is a non-option, it seems to accurately describe any number of Doctor Strange villains, but few others.

Though it perfectly describes Dweller in Darkness, it would be odd for him to be added at this point. With Loki, Malekith/Kurse/Svartalfheim and Thanos already on the table. I'm not saying impossible, just surprising to me.

Sorry, but that ain't metaphor.
And the synopsis don't stutter when it says "enemy that predates the universe itself." You can count on the fingers of one six-fingered hand the cosmic entities who might fit that bill (Galactus, The One Above All, Dweller In Darkness, Eternity, The Watcher, The Living Tribunal). Thanos (a Titan) and Surtur (a Fire Giant) and Malekith (a Dark Elf) and Kurse (another Dark Elf in funky armor) don't even remotely come close to "predating the universe itself."

The Beyonder might Predate the universe since he's not from our universe and space and time don't exist for him. It would be nice if marvel introduced the existence of the other gods of the Marvel universe.

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What is the most indestructable thing in the avengers? Ironman's suit, Captain America's Shield, or Thor's Hammer?﻿ The correct answer is Hulk's Pants

Yeah, being that Galactus is a non-option, it seems to accurately describe any number of Doctor Strange villains, but few others.

Though it perfectly describes Dweller in Darkness, it would be odd for him to be added at this point. With Loki, Malekith/Kurse/Svartalfheim and Thanos already on the table. I'm not saying impossible, just surprising to me.

Yes, I agree that Cthulhu --- I mean, The Dweller --- would be a left-field addition to the storyline. But Malekith and Kurse sure don't fit the synopsis, and (again) it's pretty clear that the synopsis regards them as a separate threat after this "shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself." And Surtur definitely doesn't fit *that* description. Thanos doesn't either, but he's the most likely to have his backstory revamped to qualify....but I hope to hell not. Thanos has a rich story to draw from; he doesn't need some Kirby-style pre-Big Bang Grand Cosmic Poobah addendum to make him more than he already is.

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Originally Posted by Smashlilman

The Beyonder might Predate the universe since he's not from our universe and space and time don't exist for him. It would be nice if marvel introduced the existence of the other gods of the Marvel universe.

Beyonder would certainly fit the bill, and would be a literal reading of Simonson's Kurse story; so you might be on the money there. But Beyonder, classically, is something of a joke in fandom; and if he *is* going to be introduced, the first question that fanboys will ask is "OMG WHAR'S SECRET WARS?!?!?"