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Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

We are still a very inconsistent basketball team and on any given night against almost any given opponent you really don’t know which team will show its face.

But no matter how you look at it going 2-1 on a 3 games in 3 nights is a good thing, it certainly beats going 1-2 or even 0-3.

Oddly enough I did not realize before the game that the bucks were also on game 3 of 3 nights as well and had to fly in from Charlotte last night. However they had to land in Chicago due to fog and drive up, not arriving till 1:30 a.m. I have no idea what time the Pacers arrived but it couldn’t have been but maybe 2-3 hours before that so that is no excuse.

On this night we got the good Pacers, you know the one’s who when they play like this make many of us long time observers proclaim greatness and that nobody wants to play us in the Playoffs. This is of course the opposite side of the Pacers, you know the one’s that make many of us long time observers proclaim how much they suck and that we really would have been better off with a high lottery pick.

Now I know that we have been filled with a lot of gloom over the past month, and with good reason, however there is another slight trend starting to develop. We are starting to play a little better on a more consistent basis. The Suns game was just one of those times where we played pretty good but just not good enough. A stop here and a score there and we might have had a 3-0 series.

But let’s just focus on tonight’s game.

First and foremost I always start any and all postings whenever we play against any team coached by Scot Skiles by stating my admiration for him as a coach. Since Larry Brown finally lost his mind prior to getting put out of the league I believe Scot is the best coach in the game. Now to be honest he has some very stiff competition by Thibadeau up in Chicago & of course our very own Frank Vogel, but till further notice I still believe Scot is the best. The fact that he can take that train wreck of a roster and have them winning 7 of their previous 8 games prior to our game is just unbelievable. When Scot was a player (yes sadly I’m old enough to remember him as a Pacer) he was the kind of player who would bite you rather than let you get around him to score. While the Bucks don’t defend at the level I am used to his teams defending he still has them trying to.

At the end of the day the Bucks are just too small. Yes they will be able to win some regular season games but under no circumstance do I think they can do any kind of damage in the playoffs. They might win a game or two but that is only because they have a punchers chance. Our starting shooting guard is as tall as their center.

That doesn’t mean that they aren’t talented and it doesn’t take anything away from the victory, it’s just an observation that if that club is ever going to do anything they are going to have to make it so poor Drew Gooden, who is playing out of his mind good for them, doesn’t have to face the 7’2” Roy Hibbert or Dwight Howard. Vnzla told me on twitter and I agree with him, the Bucks need to really pursue Chris Kaman in the off season.

Ok, enough about them.

Let us once again bask in the glory that is the Indiana Pacers.

The word for tonight is efficiency.

As a team we shot 51.2% from the field & 58.3% from the three point line. More often than not when you shoot that well you are going to win, obviously the Suns game was the other side of that but for now we will all just pretend like that game didn’t happen.

But the one thing that I want everyone to circle the date on the calendar for is this. We more than doubled the Bucks from the free throw line. We shot 38 free throw shots to their 18.

Remember at the beginning of the season when we were really good? Remember what some of us were just gushing over, well besides the fact that we were actually rebounding, playing tough, not chucking three’s like a Gatling gun and Satan was not attempting to spread his evil over the masses from our sidelines. We were thrilled because we were out shooting our opponents from the line and doing it quite often.

You do that when you only take 12 three point shots. You do that when your small forward attacks the rim and doesn’t settle for a jumper. You do that when both of your backup guards drive the lane.

I know that the opponent wasn’t really that tough on the interior but let’s just go ahead and say it, during this game we played smash mouth basketball. There was a real concerted effort to attack the rim and take it inside.

The night was also not without its comic relief either. We had in the matter of a few min. Mike Dunleavy blocking a shot like he was Ben Wallace to then turn around and channel Rick Mahorn and lay out Tyler Hansbrough by being the enforcer. I fully expected the next sequence of events would be for George Hill to flip the ball out to Lou Amundsen who would rise up and swish a three.

Overall though this was just another game where we came together and the sum was greater than the parts as several players played good to great games and the team overall was just a juggernaut.

Let’s do the Good the Bad & the Ugly.

The Good:

Very tempted to just say the entire team and leave it at that but that would be cheap.
David West: He set the tone early. He very intentionally took the ball down in the painted area and made Ilyasova attempt to guard him, which he could not. I like him as a good young player (hard to imagine he is only 24) but he just could do absolutely nothing against the girth and width of David West and the fact that West can hit that nice mid range shot did not allow him to back off of him. Even when West missed he was making the defense react to him so both Danny & Roy could get in place for offensive rebounds. He also had 7 boards to go along with his 15 points and a block.

Roy Hibbert: Just absolutely befuddled Gooden all night long, which btw is no real shame to Drew. Roy has two things going for him in this matchup. 1. He is actually pretty good when he is on, God knows we’ve all seen enough of Roy when he is not on to know that he in theory could have trouble here. But when he is actually good Roy and on, Drew Gooden has no hope in hell of stopping him. 2. He is 7’2” tall and you can’t teach that. At best Gooden is 6’10” (I don’t know or care what he is listed at he is no taller than either West or George) and he just could not even reach the ball when Roy held it up.

Danny Granger: The single most impressive thing for Danny tonight was that he made a very concerted effort to drive the ball and not settle for the jumper that he can get at almost any time. His reward for doing this, he got to shoot 10 free throw shots hitting 9. That is something you want to see from him every game if you can. Also he just kills me when he does that dribble between the legs pull up for a jumper move. Like he is Michael Jordan or something, fortunately for everyone involved (well minus Delfino) he made the shot. Also for those of you keeping score at home Danny Granger had 15 points on the night and Monta Ellis had 11 and the Pacers won again. At this rate I believe that Danny and the team would welcome playing whatever team Ellis is on at least 10 times a year.

George Hill: Assassin. George just came in and became Kano on the Bucks and ripped out their hearts. He all but shut Jennings out of the game once he was on him on one end and just scored at will on the other end. BTW Collison did an excellent job on Brandon as well tonight. I know he is supposed to be a good player but I swear that I have never seen the guy have a good game. Anyway back to George he was just on a murderous rampage in the second half, which is good considering he didn’t play worth a crap the two previous games.

Darren Collison: I’m going to go ahead and throw him a bone here because even though the numbers don’t show it I think he had a very good game. For once his defense didn’t make me want to gouge out my eyes and his speed came in so handy that Jennings had to foul him because he couldn’t keep him in front of him, which made me question if this was opposite day.

Dahntay Jones: To add insult to injury to those who like Monta Ellis, ahem you know who you are, Dahntay outscored him as well. For whatever reason he was on a mission to score tonight and when you hit 3 of 5 from three point range I guess you earn the right to take a few shots. Solid play on both ends of the floor and he was rewarded with extended min.

The Bad:

Hard to say that anybody really played bad for us but if there was one player who you would say didn’t have the best of games it would be Paul George. This is about 3 or 4 games in a row now that he has got into some foul trouble and turned the ball over more than you would care to see happen. I’d like to say that his defense held firm but he only got to play for 14 min. tonight so it’s hard to say.

Monta Ellis: For a guy that someone compared to Derrick Rose & LeBron James in his ability to score he sure hasn’t scored much vs. the Pacers. Or if he has then I guess that makes Danny Granger Michael Jordan.

The Ugly:

The one truly great thing about this win was that it made it so we didn’t have to suffer a three game losing streak as we are going to face the Heat mercifully for the last time on Monday.

I don’t have to have a win, I don’t even have to have a loss of 5 points or less. But for the love of God could we please make certain that we don’t get put away in the 1st quarter.

Hey who knows though we might catch a break and they will rest the big three thinking that they can take us without them.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

some games the little dude does have good defense and can get some deflections and cause to's. we know hes capable of playing good d, but his effort seems to be lacking some nights.

there are a lot of games that collison puts up mediocre stats, it goes unnoticed (fairly so) but he still has played a great game and did exactly what his role was on the team. the only times he truly is a liability is against the bigger point guards (derrick williams, etc.) and then starting george hill over dc.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

barbosa had a nice and1 this game.

i am going to step out on a limb and could be wrong. but i am fearful of what barbosa brings to the table long term. he seems like he is so determined on driving to the hole everytime the ball is passed to him. just seems like he has a low bball iq. could be off base here!

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

i am going to step out on a limb and could be wrong. but i am fearful of what barbosa brings to the table long term. he seems like he is so determined on driving to the hole everytime the ball is passed to him. just seems like he has a low bball iq. could be off base here!

Yes, it's a little too early to know, but I don't have your concern just yet. I see Barbosa as having been given a clear role to score, and he is trying to figure out how to aggressively do that while being aware of his teammates for the good pass when his penetration creates opportunities.

I've seen glimpses already of some really nice looks and court awareness and vision. It's just that he is so new to his teammates that he doesn't know what they do yet. That will take a few more games.

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"I like our group of people," Ainge told USA Today. "I'm trying to teach them about basketball, and they're trying to teach me about analytics."

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I like the fact that he gives everything he has to the defensive side. He is trying so hard to be "ELITE" on that end of the court first which is a sign of hope and glimmer.

The problem he is having right now is what a lot of high school players have. They think they are so athletically gifted that they can get to every pass or every steal. This is a good thing to have, he has the killer instinct brewing in him and once he learns exactly which ones he can get to and which ones he cannot get to he will be a all nba defensive guard.

You can tell he is playing his role on the offensive side so the fact he is not breaking out for 20 does not bother me. Like frank said he just needs to hit his spot of 3 and get his points off fast breaks for them to look like a success this year. This summer I really expect him to work on his post up game. There is not a guard in the game that should be able to guard him on the block.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

i am going to step out on a limb and could be wrong. but i am fearful of what barbosa brings to the table long term. he seems like he is so determined on driving to the hole everytime the ball is passed to him. just seems like he has a low bball iq. could be off base here!

It's not a matter of low bball iq. It's a matter of insticts. Leandro will score. It's what he does better. Sure, he'll pass the ball when he cannot get his shot off but if he sees a way to get his shot off he is going to grab it by the horns.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

It's not a matter of low bball iq. It's a matter of insticts. Leandro will score. It's what he does better. Sure, he'll pass the ball when he cannot get his shot off but if he sees a way to get his shot off he is going to grab it by the horns.

It is also important, I think, to understand that this is EXACTLY what he was brought here to do. I think in games where the scoring is balanced across the players on the floor and the ball is moving, we won't see Barbosa play as much as in games where the scoring has stagnated and his push is needed.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I have come to the conclusion that how successfully Roy plays is more dependent upon who is guarding him that anything else. Certain players (Marc Gasol, and a few others, who was it about two weeks ago, I forget) can effectively shut Roy down. Also it depends upon the type of scheme teams are able to play against Roy.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I have come to the conclusion that how successfully Roy plays is more dependent upon who is guarding him that anything else. Certain players (Marc Gasol, and a few others, who was it about two weeks ago, I forget) can effectively shut Roy down. Also it depends upon the type of scheme teams are able to play against Roy.

this. there are a couple of guys that can defend roy on their own. most effective defense seems to be that hard trap. which is a little surprising. roy is a good passer and seems to see the floor well for a big. but the hard trap seems to fluster him and get him off balance big time.

the trap thing is something that needs to be fixed by playoff time, or pacer fans will see 48 min of roy looking bad on the trap and defending the PnR. there are a lot of smart guys on the pacer coaching staff, they need to fix this, ASAP.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

Can't believe I forgot, it was Tyson Chandler who I suggested after the game made Roy look like a child.

I am not too worried about the teams that have to out right double team Roy, it is the teams that can defend him one-on-one that worry me

In the first game, but in game 2 Roy more than held his own. Which made me happy as in the past Roy would have went into a shell and not been able to produce.

It is usually the mobile athletic bigs who can body up that give Roy fits. Noah, Horford, Bogut, etc. that in the past that have made Roy look horrid. But this season he actually held his own in one game vs. Noah and outplayed Horford in their one meeting.

It's taking longer than we would like but Roy is finally at least getting to the point where he doesn't have a mental break down when he has to face these players.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I was talking to Billy Keller at the IMCU signing on Saturday and my wife asked him about why Roy hesitates so much when he gets the ball, almost like he is waiting for the double team. We thought we'd get an answer from him as shooting coach, but he said that the offensive play is supposed to send a cutter down on the baseline that Roy can pass off to for a layup or draw the defender. I found that interesting and wasn't able to aks the follow-up questions that come to mind, especially about why we seldom if ever SEE such a cutter.

I will be watching particularly closely in the situations where Roy seems to hesitate and will try to be aware of the wing activity in that case. It makes me wonder if there are teams where the post play is designed for the activity Billy talked about and if there are teams where the post play is designed for Roy to be the single option when he gets the ball in the paint - that would go a LONG way in explaining why some games he moves as soon as he gets the ball and other games he seems to stand around.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I don't know why anyone is concerned about a blow out to the Heat tonight. We out played them for most of the game last time and Wade made an incredibly lucky shot to seal it for them. I expect us to win tonight. The key will be Roy Hibbert and DWeat tonight.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I was talking to Billy Keller at the IMCU signing on Saturday and my wife asked him about why Roy hesitates so much when he gets the ball, almost like he is waiting for the double team. We thought we'd get an answer from him as shooting coach, but he said that the offensive play is supposed to send a cutter down on the baseline that Roy can pass off to for a layup or draw the defender. I found that interesting and wasn't able to aks the follow-up questions that come to mind, especially about why we seldom if ever SEE such a cutter.

I will be watching particularly closely in the situations where Roy seems to hesitate and will try to be aware of the wing activity in that case. It makes me wonder if there are teams where the post play is designed for the activity Billy talked about and if there are teams where the post play is designed for Roy to be the single option when he gets the ball in the paint - that would go a LONG way in explaining why some games he moves as soon as he gets the ball and other games he seems to stand around.

Paul and Darren are almost always the cutters on the baseline. Watch when Paul gives Roy the ball he almost always cuts towards the basket by Roy.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I was talking to Billy Keller at the IMCU signing on Saturday and my wife asked him about why Roy hesitates so much when he gets the ball, almost like he is waiting for the double team. We thought we'd get an answer from him as shooting coach, but he said that the offensive play is supposed to send a cutter down on the baseline that Roy can pass off to for a layup or draw the defender. I found that interesting and wasn't able to aks the follow-up questions that come to mind, especially about why we seldom if ever SEE such a cutter.

I will be watching particularly closely in the situations where Roy seems to hesitate and will try to be aware of the wing activity in that case. It makes me wonder if there are teams where the post play is designed for the activity Billy talked about and if there are teams where the post play is designed for Roy to be the single option when he gets the ball in the paint - that would go a LONG way in explaining why some games he moves as soon as he gets the ball and other games he seems to stand around.

Sure there is: The triangle offense, which we partially use because of Brian Shaw's influence. Classic triangle is to feed the post from either the wing or the corner, with the passer cutting around the post man first, then usually a second guy quickly cutting around the post man too (one goes baseline, the other goes towards the middle). Lazy defense leaves an easy pass/layup-dunk, and otherwise you're left with a clear-out, one-on-one post up situation if no pass is made (unless the defense double or whatever).

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

Sure there is: The triangle offense, which we partially use because of Brian Shaw's influence. Classic triangle is to feed the post from either the wing or the corner, with the passer cutting around the post man first, then usually a second guy quickly cutting around the post man too (one goes baseline, the other goes towards the middle). Lazy defense leaves an easy pass/layup-dunk, and otherwise you're left with a clear-out, one-on-one post up situation if no pass is made (unless the defense double or whatever).

Not quite what I meant - I meant are there opponents where we use this offense vs. opponents where we don't.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I'll just go with the one negative that really stood out to me all night - The Pacers depend entirely too much on one-on-one, isolation plays for their offense. The George Hill 5-second violation (the Mark Jackson Rule) was a highlight of the way the Pacers played a good majority of the game.

It doesn't matter if they're dropping it down into the post or dribbling at the top of the key and then taking a step-back jumper it's still a one-pass offense most times down the court. If the shot goes in that's great but they can't continue to win that way and most of the games they have lost have been because of lack of ball movement/accurate passing. When they moved the ball from the post out to the top and then to the shooter in the corner on a consistent basis, they wind up with a really good shot.

They shot the ball well against Phoenix and Milwaukee but they only had 20 and 19 assists respectively in those games. So only 39 out of their 84 made field goals were assisted. That's well below the league average and barely above their league-worst assists per game average.

To win consistently in the playoffs, the Pacers need to improve their ability to pass. In particular, passing the ball to the player in position to score.

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Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I figured I'd spout about my love for George Hill here. :P

I still don't think he's a point guard, at least he can't run a half court set well. But it hasn't mattered because he has good clock awareness (usually) and he'll get his shot up and make it anyway. And he's not turnover prone.

That said, I love everything about his game. From his shooting, to his PnR game, to the way he comes off screens, to his defense, to his basketball IQ. I know Harden has been great, and is likely to get sixth man of the year, but I don't know that I'd rather have any other bench player coming off the bench than Hill.

I'd almost be curious to see if Hill could run a triangle offense (as that isn't THAT involved for a PG)..and it might be worth installing a lot of that offense just so Hill could be our future starter there (that's something to look at next training camp though.) because his game is so good everywhere else.

Re: Odd Thoughts: Deer Hunters

I'll just go with the one negative that really stood out to me all night - The Pacers depend entirely too much on one-on-one, isolation plays for their offense. The George Hill 5-second violation (the Mark Jackson Rule) was a highlight of the way the Pacers played a good majority of the game.

It doesn't matter if they're dropping it down into the post or dribbling at the top of the key and then taking a step-back jumper it's still a one-pass offense most times down the court. If the shot goes in that's great but they can't continue to win that way and most of the games they have lost have been because of lack of ball movement/accurate passing. When they moved the ball from the post out to the top and then to the shooter in the corner on a consistent basis, they wind up with a really good shot.

They shot the ball well against Phoenix and Milwaukee but they only had 20 and 19 assists respectively in those games. So only 39 out of their 84 made field goals were assisted. That's well below the league average and barely above their league-worst assists per game average.

To win consistently in the playoffs, the Pacers need to improve their ability to pass. In particular, passing the ball to the player in position to score.

This is true BUT it is also true that defenses really crank it up in the playoffs, and teams that rely on really moving the ball a ton can often be stifled by the increased pressure. We don't have an abundance of talent passing the ball, but we do have guys that can make plays scoring, such as David, Roy and Danny, the plodding, grind it out style we play offensively typically is made for the eastern conference playoffs, and one of the reasons we're more likely, imo, to see success there than a team like Philly.