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So every tomato and potato plant and seed, brought there 12,500 years ago, was magically washed away in the old world but all the other old world grains weren't harmed at all. Is that your claim?

So, what about the other direction? Can anyone name some diseases that were brought from the Old World to the New World around 800 years ago? Can these diseases be washed away by rain or a good dose of penicillin?

Magically washed away? Ever heard of the Irish potato famine? Better example, the French wine industry almost collapsed utterly and completely at the hands of mildew. EVERY vine in the region was lost. Luckily a guy from Texas had taken some cuttings from France, married the vines to local mustang grape root stock, and grew a large successful vineyard (Munson Wines). Upon hearing of the French catastrophe he reached out to them, and single-handedly saved the French wine industry.

I never said the flood 'covered everything'...stop conflating issues.

GT and the other similar civilizations collapsed due to coastal flooding after the asteroid melted glacial ice, and the resulting climate change due to the debris the asteroid kicked up. Coastal communities were consumed, while agricultural centers stopped producing.

Magically washed away? Ever heard of the Irish potato famine? Better example, the French wine industry almost collapsed utterly and completely at the hands of mildew. EVERY vine in the region was lost. Luckily a guy from Texas had taken some cuttings from France, married the vines to local mustang grape root stock, and grew a large successful vineyard (Munson Wines). Upon hearing of the French catastrophe he reached out to them, and single-handedly saved the French wine industry.

I never said the flood 'covered everything'...stop conflating issues.

GT and the other similar civilizations collapsed due to coastal flooding after the asteroid melted glacial ice, and the resulting climate change due to the debris the asteroid kicked up. Coastal communities were consumed, while agricultural centers stopped producing.

This is fanciful. But even if things are no longer produced, evidence remains that they once existed. If vines in France had been permanently wiped out by "mildew" in the nineteenth century, would that have removed every grape stone from the remains of mediaeval kitchens?

Have you never heard of fossil remains of extinct creatures, disappeared long ago?

I have pointed this out before. Where is the wheat pollen from your global civilisation? Washed away in a flood? Washed out of lake sediments by flooding? Because old world plant pollen is not found in such locations in the new world. You never answer points like that, but start spouting more utter rubbish.

Phylloxera is an aphid and pest of grapevines native to eastern North America.
American vines were introduced to Europe in the 1850s., Phylloxera Aphids came with them and local indigenous vines had no resistance.
Charles Valentine Riley in collaboration with J. E. Planchon developed resistant strains from American vines and they were promoted commercially by T. V. Munson.

I don't know what you were getting at with your mentioning the vines but the presence of Phylloxera in Europe is good evidence for a world spanning civilisation.

Phylloxera is an aphid and pest of grapevines native to eastern North America.
American vines were introduced to Europe in the 1850s., Phylloxera Aphids came with them and local indigenous vines had no resistance.
Charles Valentine Riley in collaboration with J. E. Planchon developed resistant strains from American vines and they were promoted commercially by T. V. Munson.

I don't know what you were getting at with your mentioning the vines but the presence of Phylloxera in Europe is good evidence for a world spanning civilisation.

Right, and early tomatoes and potatoes probably faced the same challenges here in the Americas, with no natural abilities to fight local problems.

One evasive species wiped out an entire industry. Maybe they never even managed to cultivate the plants in the Americas, but they could certainly have been wiped out. Using their absence as proof or evidence of anything is folly.

---

The wild wheat reading was interesting. Cultivating it would have been done, simply by harvesting it. Kernels can be knocked off with even the slightest brush. Farming or cultivating wild wheat was or IS absolutely a precursor to permanent settlements and brewing stations.

This is fanciful. But even if things are no longer produced, evidence remains that they once existed. If vines in France had been permanently wiped out by "mildew" in the nineteenth century, would that have removed every grape stone from the remains of mediaeval kitchens?

Have you never heard of fossil remains of extinct creatures, disappeared long ago?

I have pointed this out before. Where is the wheat pollen from your global civilisation? Washed away in a flood? Washed out of lake sediments by flooding? Because old world plant pollen is not found in such locations in the new world. You never answer points like that, but start spouting more utter rubbish.

Right, and we are still discovering new dinosaurs, as new fossils are unearthed.

When did I saw wheat was globally produced?

If the wine industry had remained inoperative, those stones would have slowly left or been abandoned, until they disappeared altogether.

Right, and we are still discovering new dinosaurs, as new fossils are unearthed.

even though they have been extinct for tens of millions of years there remains are still there.

Quote:

When did I saw wheat was globally produced?

When you said there was a global civilisation. Explain how a global civilisation never moved things about: livestock and food crops for instance.

Quote:

If the wine industry had remained inoperative, those stones would have slowly left or been abandoned, until they disappeared altogether.

I've no idea what you mean. It doesn't make sense. Suppose there's a grape stone lying in the ruins of a mediaeval building since the 1470s. Then in the 1870s the wine industry disappears. Does that make the mediaeval grape stone vanish too? How does that work?

Yes as potatoes were introduced to the Old World, from the New World, in the 15th Century. Your hilarious "pre-12,500 BP advanced civilisation" claim of international traders, falls apart as no tomatoes, corn or potatoes existed in the Old World until the 15th Century.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

I never said the flood 'covered everything'. GT and the other similar civilizations collapsed due to coastal flooding after the asteroid melted glacial ice.

Göbekli Tepe is in Turkey (Near Asia). The Younger Dryas was a localized glacier melt in North Americas. You have mixed up your continents again.

Right, and early tomatoes and potatoes probably faced the same challenges here in the Americas, with no natural abilities to fight local problems.

One evasive species wiped out an entire industry. Maybe they never even managed to cultivate the plants in the Americas, but they could certainly have been wiped out. Using their absence as proof or evidence of anything is folly.

If any of the New World species had been introduced to Europe or vice versa by your ancient civilization chances are at least one of them would have survived? Even if they hadn't there would be remains preserved from the time they were there. Just like we find fossilized plant material for other civilizations and time periods.
Well the potato and tomato originated in the Americas along with maize, vanilla and tobacco not to mention the cacao tree from which we get cocoa and chocolate.
They now all thrive around the world but there is no record of them outside the Americas before the Spanish arrived.

Likewise with plants indigenous to Europe, there are no records of them in the Americas before the Spanish.

I thought you would have picked on something like Cotton, there are varieties in various places around the globe, Americas, Mediterranean, Australia, all indigenous, you could have claimed that as evidence of your ancient civilization.

Right, and early tomatoes and potatoes probably faced the same challenges here in the Americas, with no natural abilities to fight local problems. One evasive species wiped out an entire industry.

Make a clear statement.
You claim an advanced civilization, traded between the old world and new world and elsewhere, before 12,500BP ("Pyramids on all continents")

You claimed this advanced civilization was wiped, out across the world, in 12,500BP because a glazier melted in North America, but you can't find any evidence of silt layers other than localized layers in North America.

You then claim that some sort of magic event occurred that
1) Removed all Old world species from the New World and all New World species from the old world
2) Destroyed any evidence of this advanced civilisation, across the entire world, but preserved primitive rock paintings and stone carvings from the same and earlier periods, in the same places,
3) That DNA evidence for the conventional known evolution of grains is a fabrication or a conspiracy of some sort.

Make a clear statement.
You claim an advanced civilization, traded between the old world and new world and elsewhere, before 12,500BP ("Pyramids on all continents")

You claimed this advanced civilization was wiped, out across the world, in 12,500BP because a glazier melted in North America, but you can't find any evidence of silt layers other than localized layers in North America.

You then claim that some sort of magic event occurred that
1) Removed all Old world species from the New World and all New World species from the old world
2) Destroyed any evidence of this advanced civilisation, across the entire world, but preserved primitive rock paintings and stone carvings from the same and earlier periods, in the same places,
3) That DNA evidence for the conventional known evolution of grains is a fabrication or a conspiracy of some sort.

You seem to be struggling to set out what your actual claim is and sticking to it.

Matthew

He changes his reaction to each posters and each post. He is not engaged in an actual debate. He has no need to for coherent claims as all he is trying to do is get people to respond to him. He seems to think saying contradictory stuff is the best way to do it. Contradictory not coherent.

lol

Its kinda fun watching him intellectually stumbling around. He kinda like a zombie, you keep killing him with logic and reason and keeps trying to keep going by constantly changing his story like a lame, one-legged Gish Gallop.

Matthew, He changes his reaction to each posters and each post. He is not engaged in an actual debate. He has no need to for coherent claims as all he is trying to do is get people to respond to him. He seems to think saying contradictory stuff is the best way to do it. Contradictory not coherent.

He's playing the Monty Python game "Cheese Shop".

1) He states he has evidence of an advanced civilisation.
2) We take turns asking why different types of evidence don't exist,
3) He makes up a new excuse for not having any evidence.

That's pretty much it. I particularly like how he makes up new things that 'must' be evidence of an AC, or if lacking means the locals couldn't have carved a stone. All pompous pontifications of zero value - except as comedy. I wonder when he is going to threaten to hold his breath until he turns blue unless we agree that the Global Civilization existed......lol

-Call whatever event or entity to be disbelieved, woo.
-Dismiss evidence presented as not representative of other better research
-Ignore peer-reviewed research or findings that contradict their findings altogether

We can see the evidence of Roman civilization in the changes in the atmosphere preserved in Greenland is ice cores, and even see the rise and fall of Roman industry in that evidence. Yet Rome was far from being a global civilization. Where is the ice core data for this ancient civilization?

Similarly Roman trade can be tracked through Mediterranean shipwrecks from the period. Yet there is not a single shipwreck known from this global civilization engaging in global international trade?

Roman coins are found not just throughout the former empire, but also throughout former trading partners, for instance they are common in India. Yet not a single coin from this global civilization has turned up? Maybe they used PayPal for everything...

__________________"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov

We can see the evidence of Roman civilization in the changes in the atmosphere preserved in Greenland is ice cores, and even see the rise and fall of Roman industry in that evidence. Yet Rome was far from being a global civilization. Where is the ice core data for this ancient civilization?

Similarly Roman trade can be tracked through Mediterranean shipwrecks from the period. Yet there is not a single shipwreck known from this global civilization engaging in global international trade?

Roman coins are found not just throughout the former empire, but also throughout former trading partners, for instance they are common in India. Yet not a single coin from this global civilization has turned up? Maybe they used PayPal for everything...

Yes all the known civilizations, advanced cultures and even many minor cultures all left extensive traces. The civilizations often leaving MILLIONS of pieces of evidence and thousands of sites. All easy to find

If you're looking for a Monty Python portrayal of the likes of KotA the Black Knight is far closer:

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__________________"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.

Posts: 1,985

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

peer-reviewed research

Fantastic! Why didn't you say so before?
Please link to the posts where you cited the peer-reviewed research arguing in favour of an advanced civilisation, dating from some 12,500 years ago, that has been lost.
Will it show the stone pyramids, sorry, the huge stone pyramid structures, in Antarctica and Australia?

"But at some point the hunter-gatherers learned to maintain the buzz, a major breakthrough. “By the time we became distinctly human 100,000 years ago, we would have known where there were certain fruits we could collect to make fermented beverages,” McGovern says. “We would have been very deliberate about going at the right time of the year to collect grains, fruits and tubers and making them into beverages at the beginning of the human race.” (Alas, archaeologists are unlikely to find evidence of these preliminary hooches, fermented from things such as figs or baobab fruit, because their creators, in Africa, would have stored them in dried gourds and other containers that did not stand the test of time.)

With a supply of mind-blowing beverages on hand, human civilization was off and running. In what might be called the “beer before bread” hypothesis, the desire for drink may have prompted the domestication of key crops, which led to permanent human settlements. Scientists, for instance, have measured atomic variations within the skeletal remains of New World humans; the technique, known as isotope analysis, allows researchers to determine the diets of the long-deceased. When early Americans first tamed maize around 6000 B.C., they were probably drinking the corn in the form of wine rather than eating it, analysis has shown."

"But at some point the hunter-gatherers learned to maintain the buzz, a major breakthrough. “By the time we became distinctly human 100,000 years ago, we would have known where there were certain fruits we could collect to make fermented beverages,” McGovern says. “We would have been very deliberate about going at the right time of the year to collect grains, fruits and tubers and making them into beverages at the beginning of the human race.” (Alas, archaeologists are unlikely to find evidence of these preliminary hooches, fermented from things such as figs or baobab fruit, because their creators, in Africa, would have stored them in dried gourds and other containers that did not stand the test of time.)

With a supply of mind-blowing beverages on hand, human civilization was off and running. In what might be called the “beer before bread” hypothesis, the desire for drink may have prompted the domestication of key crops, which led to permanent human settlements. Scientists, for instance, have measured atomic variations within the skeletal remains of New World humans; the technique, known as isotope analysis, allows researchers to determine the diets of the long-deceased. When early Americans first tamed maize around 6000 B.C., they were probably drinking the corn in the form of wine rather than eating it, analysis has shown."

Which is all well and good for ONE BEER brewed thousands of years after your supposed civilisation existed.
You might as well cite a recipe for Tolly Cobbold Special Barley Wine and claim all English beer is 10% and use it to claim that Saxon beer was the same.

We can see the evidence of Roman civilization in the changes in the atmosphere preserved in Greenland is ice cores, and even see the rise and fall of Roman industry in that evidence. Yet Rome was far from being a global civilization. Where is the ice core data for this ancient civilization?

Similarly Roman trade can be tracked through Mediterranean shipwrecks from the period. Yet there is not a single shipwreck known from this global civilization engaging in global international trade?

Roman coins are found not just throughout the former empire, but also throughout former trading partners, for instance they are common in India. Yet not a single coin from this global civilization has turned up? Maybe they used PayPal for everything...

So, what is the record for ice cores? How far back do they date?

How old is the oldest shipwreck ever found?

Native Americans accepted a handful of beads for Stanton Island...in some tribal areas, they still purchase wives with goats. Asking where are the 12,500 year old coins from this 'advanced' civilization, as we use credit cards and other forms of digital cash is sorta dumb, don't you think? If I produced a coin, wouldn't you use that as evidence that they weren't advanced?? "Look, they weren't advanced, this coin was mis-struck!"

Look, if you want to prove an advanced global civilization didn't exist, you have to erase or re-label a lot of evidence. Which is what you've seen skeptics do here. No one yet, has addressed the same hand carvings from GT and Easter Island. Hell, this thread was started with a video that contains a plethora of evidence dating this younger dryas flood event. VERY FEW have even watched it.

It's an argument of ignorance. They don't know, and they refuse to directly address information that would disprove their position. If nothing can be presented to sway them...leave them to their own stupidity.

Even if they were so advanced they had moved beyond cash to credit cards or whatever not all of the old coins would have disappeared.
How many thousands of years did it take us to reach the credit card level? How much cash is still in circulation?
When do you think we will give up cash?

Where is the supporting technology and infrastructure for the cashless society?

Which is all well and good for ONE BEER brewed thousands of years after your supposed civilisation existed.
You might as well cite a recipe for Tolly Cobbold Special Barley Wine and claim all English beer is 10% and use it to claim that Saxon beer was the same.

It is evidence that directly contradicts the claim that there was ONLY weak beer that did NOT require very much grain.

The OTHER piece of evidence I posted, that you ALSO ignored states humankind was probably brewing some 100,000 years ago. So, by GT time, we were likely good at it.

But, you know...don't bother addressing evidence that you disagree with...keep your position safe...turn away from those ugly facts!

Even if they were so advanced they had moved beyond cash to credit cards or whatever not all of the old coins would have disappeared.
How many thousands of years did it take us to reach the credit card level? How much cash is still in circulation?
When do you think we will give up cash?

Where is the supporting technology and infrastructure for the cashless society?

He changes his reaction to each posters and each post. He is not engaged in an actual debate. He has no need to for coherent claims as all he is trying to do is get people to respond to him. He seems to think saying contradictory stuff is the best way to do it. Contradictory not coherent.

lol

Its kinda fun watching him intellectually stumbling around. He kinda like a zombie, you keep killing him with logic and reason and keeps trying to keep going by constantly changing his story like a lame, one-legged Gish Gallop.

You are kinda like a zombie too, stumbling about, belching up rotten awful, mush-mouth garble; but that might just be how I see all skeptic-infected humans who can't or won't see the evidence presented to them.

Yes all the known civilizations, advanced cultures and even many minor cultures all left extensive traces. The civilizations often leaving MILLIONS of pieces of evidence and thousands of sites. All easy to find

The imaginary lost civilization not a single thing......

ROTFLMAO

*Except for these huge stone monuments that appear on every continent... :/