Originally posted by UB2120
Why do you think atomic structure is the same as galactic structure? Look up the design of bateria flagellum, its a rotary motor that is 30nm. What
is the origin of motion? What is gravity? What is energy?

What does this have to do with the discussion? If someone claims the universe was created they'll eventually need to produce the alleged creator. Not
flagellum or atomic structure or proofs against randomness.

Originally posted by UB2120
God is the only un-caused cause. If you want to use the logic, what caused God, what caused you? Doesn't it make more sense that there is one self
existant being that caused all of creation then to say there are billions or trillions beings that just appeared?

My parents procreating caused me and that's enough for me. Why does there have to be a meaning of life? I don't need have a reason to exist, I just
am. I never understood that argument. If God doesn't need a reason to exist then why do we? Why does the universe? Why does life? Why does there need
to be a creator just because there are things in the universe we don't understand yet and may never understand. Just because science hasn't found
the answer yet (or ever will) for a lot of things doesn't automatically preclude that a divine being is the answer to those. Just because something
defies current explanation or logic does NOT by definition make it supernatural, spiritual, or magical - we just don't understand it yet.

That's the beauty of free will. You don't have to believe. God compells no one to believe in him. And no, you will not go to hell, there is no
such thing. If someone does not want to go on they don't, if they do they do.

To the unbelieving materialist, man is simply an evolutionary accident. His hopes of survival are strung on a figment of mortal imagination; his
fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of certain lifeless atoms of matter. No display of energy nor
expression of trust can carry him beyond the grave. The devotional labors and inspirational genius of the best of men are doomed to be extinguished by
death, the long and lonely night of eternal oblivion and soul extinction. Nameless despair is man’s only reward for living and toiling under the
temporal sun of mortal existence. Each day of life slowly and surely tightens the grasp of a pitiless doom which a hostile and relentless universe of
matter has decreed shall be the crowning insult to everything in human desire which is beautiful, noble, lofty, and good.

But such is not man’s end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in
spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and
distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on
the part of the most humble and unlearned of God’s children on earth.

This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal
experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity.

Religious people believe in God.
Atheists believe there is no god.
Neither side has the facts to prove what they say is true.
Therefore, it all comes down to faith.
Atheism is a religion whether the atheists want to admit it or not.
In the end, we're all the same. We just have faith in different beliefs.

Since there is something and not nothing, I think it would be more difficult to prove there is no God!

You do realise early genetics was "discovered" by Christian monks right? To name one example.

You do realize that pretty much ALL scientists pre-twentieth century were "Monks" or religious scholars by necessity right? If they thought or acted
outside of that circle during that time period they would be branded heretics, killed or at the very least placed under house arrest like Galileo was
in the 1600s. You do realize how much scientific material and research was destroyed during the dark ages and crusades because they were deemed
blasphemous and the work of heretics?

You won't find me arguing for a meaningless and purposeless existence, since I cannot in good conscience do so. It defies my experience as a human
being. It's just "incongruent" with felt experience, which I don't think can be denied although I can't speak for anyone else. To me, losing
faith in God would be like losing my own sense of mirth.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
You won't find me arguing for a meaningless and purposeless existence, since I cannot in good conscience do so. It defies my experience as a human
being. It's just "incongruent" with felt experience, which I don't think can be denied although I can't speak for anyone else. To me, losing
faith in God would be like losing my own sense of mirth.

"To thine own self be true."

If you have a meaningful and purposeful existence it's because you gave your existence meaning and purpose, not because some deity provided it.

It is scary for some people to imagine a purposeless, meaningless universe - but fear should not prompt one to believe irrational things....

But, back on topic.
So, would you agree that like theism spawning the much blighted word and scapegoat religion, atheism can and does spawn a equal and opposite
counterpart?
People being as people are.

I call it religion as well. Largely because they, in practice, are no different then their counterparts as far as I can see. Same tune, different
words really.
And I want none of either world either extreme of the viewpoint divide envisages in their wildest "this world would be better if everyone was like
me" fantasies.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
If you have a meaningful and purposeful existence it's because you gave your existence meaning and purpose, not because some deity provided it.

Here here! Nothing defines my reason for being except my own actions, not even the universe. My actions define me and my purpose. If my actions make
myself and others happy then that's all that matters. I'm not here to appease so magic man in the sky.

It is scary for some people to imagine a purposeless, meaningless universe - but fear should not prompt one to believe irrational things....

It should not but unfortunately does otherwise we would most likely not have religion, big foot, aliens, UFOs, the illuminati, etc. Fear is a powerful
motivator, especially fear of the unknown.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
You won't find me arguing for a meaningless and purposeless existence, since I cannot in good conscience do so. It defies my experience as a human
being. It's just "incongruent" with felt experience, which I don't think can be denied although I can't speak for anyone else. To me, losing faith in
God would be like losing my own sense of mirth.

"To thine own self be true."

If you have a meaningful and purposeful existence it's because you gave your existence meaning and purpose, not because some deity provided it.

It is scary for some people to imagine a purposeless, meaningless universe - but fear should not prompt one to believe irrational things....

You misunderstand and ASSUME, as usual.

Uncertainty is the highest state of being, or almost the highest, maybe one notch down from the apex, and then, at last having discarded all
preconceptions or bias, with an open mind free from contempt prior to investigation, standing as it were on the unconditioned ground of being and
becoming, one encounters the first/last cause and the impetus and stimulant or the catalyst to creative action, which is love, and then you know, not
based on belief, but based on a personal experience.

Don't forget that we live in a self referrencial non-local, holographic universe, emmersed in a reality which at the most fundamental level remains
and must remain the same, in eternity, even now, from the POV of this eternally unfolding (and forgiven) present moment relative to a realm of domain
of limitless possibility that is bounded only by love as a first/last cause or the alpha and omega of existence.

It's very personal, and goes to the core of our own "qualia" or human experience, and no atheist can make me recant.

I am. This is. You are. Therefore there is God. Don't have time right now, but at some point I'll fill in the apparent gaps in the logic of that
statement.

The atheist is close minded and willfully ignorant of the possibility that indeed there is God and that we've been included in his design, or in a
creative process hatched with an intent of the will since there is purpose, and meaning, which is framed by love.

I am not afraid of encountering nothing, because that's precisely where God may be "seen" as a felt experience or gnosis, in the space of nothing that
is everything already always, now and forever.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I am. This is. You are. Therefore there is a God.

Sorry, that's a huge non-sequitur.

If you claim there is a god, first - define it, then produce it. No more talk about "higher states of being" and other guru-terminology.

The atheist is close minded and willfully ignorant of the possibility that indeed there is God and that we've been included in his design, or
in a creative process hatched with an intent of the will since there is purpose, and meaning, which is framed by love.

Wrong again. I am perfectly open to the possibility of a god and most atheists are. We simply tend to have higher standards for believing in things.

You've made all kinds of claims about an alleged god, it's qualities, etc. Pony up some evidence.

Since so many people are replying to my original post, I'll just clarify here, what I said previously.

I did not mean atheism is a religion in a literal sense. I was simply implying that as annoying as theists are about spreading their faith, atheists
are just as annoying in the same way. Now I'm sure that someone will jump in and say that theists are more annoying, but, from a theist's point of
view, atheists are just as bad.

Let me just say it one more time: I did not mean atheism is a religion in a literal sense. I was referring to an atheist's set of beliefs as
being their "religion". I know you guys don't practice it or don't have any other beliefs, but having faith in that one belief makes it sound
religious, wouldn't you say?

Also, to the few people who did not realize which "side" I was taking, I'm a practicing Catholic and a believer in God. Not quite sure how you guys
managed to interpret my first post as an attack on the faithful.. hahaha. I was simply saying one side is as annoying as the other.

P.S. I wonder how many atheists in this thread list their religion on facebook as atheism..

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