1) Who are all the folks trained at some level as apprentices, Dark Side adepts, Sith, etc. by Palpatine and Vader?
2) What was there original title / role prior to the prequels
3) What was their status after any retcon?

Also, based ona technicality, since Darth Maul did not actually die in TPM, does that now mean he remained a Dark Lord of the Sith and Tyranus is "illegitimate"?

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I don't know about that. Even if Palpatine was unaware of Maul's survivial he still replaced him with Tyranus; Dooku is still a legitimate Lord and Sidious' apprentice. Maul has been disowned so I don't know what his status would be, Sith Lord? Darth Sider?

I guess you could consider the Opress brothers to be some kind of new Banite offshoot coexisting alongside the mainline Banites. I mean there were like hundreds of Sith doing their own thing on Kesh throughout the whole Rule of Two era so it's nothing new.

Several sources, particularly Darth Plagueis, strong suggest that Palpatine may have called Maul apprentice, but never intended him to be anything more than a killing machine. Plagueis was aware of Maul's existence and did not object to his training, implying that both Sith considered him an exception to the Rule of Two.

Counting the various minions of Emperor Palpatine as Rule of Two violations is irrelevant. Once he became Emperor Bane's contingencies no longer applied, the Rule fo Two had fullfilled its purpose and Palpatine was in a position to abandon it, which he certainly did - explicitly so after his initial death (not for nothing, the use of the essence transfer power violates the principle justification behind the rule of two in the first place, that the single dark lord would die at some point).

Insofar as there are characters who could 'violate' the rule of two by properly threatening to replace one of the existing sith, the list is quite small. It's basically Maul, Ventress, Galen Marek, and Luke Skywalker (again, insofar as the Rule of Two even applied under the Empire).

Honestly though, I'd be prepared to say that the Rule of Two properly died with Darth Plagueis. At that point Palpatine had already become Supreme Chancellor, which moved him, and the Sith with him, outside the context Darth Bane had devised the Rule of Two to operate under, rendering it more or less irrelevant.

Well technically now it was retconned that Darth Maul was never even a "true" Sith.

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No such thing happened. Plagueis thought that Maul wouldn't be trained as a true Sith. That's what Sidious, devious bastard that he is, wanted him to believe. Otherwise Plagueis would have never allowed Maul to be trained. But obviously Sidious had other ideas in mind. Sidious dubbing Maul a Darth and Dark Lord of the Sith further reinforces this. There was no need for him to do so if it was 'just for show' . Maul already was fanatical in his devotion to him.

Several sources, particularly Darth Plagueis, strong suggest that Palpatine may have called Maul apprentice, but never intended him to be anything more than a killing machine. Plagueis was aware of Maul's existence and did not object to his training, implying that both Sith considered him an exception to the Rule of Two.

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Even assuming this was true, there's a difference between how a Master perceives his Apprentice and how the Apprentice actually is. Plagueis' own master Tenebrous thought he was a dolt and considered him no more than a vessel for him until the Anakin Skywalker appeared and Tenebrous could hop in his body. Venamis was actually Tenebrous' true apprentice. We all know how that turned out.

Near the end of his life Bane thought Zannah was unworthy to succeed him. We also know how that turned out.

True, Maul doesn't have the wealth and influence Plagueis and Palpatine enjoy in the galaxy. But that is not what makes a Sith. Strength in the dark side is what makes a Sith, and Maul qualifies. He was already very powerful and he was only in his early 20s. I believe if Maul had 2 or 3 more decades to mature he would have surpassed both Plagueis and Sidious in power.

I guess you could consider the Opress brothers to be some kind of new Banite offshoot coexisting alongside the mainline Banites. I mean there were like hundreds of Sith doing their own thing on Kesh throughout the whole Rule of Two era so it's nothing new.

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On point I want to bring up is I think while called "The Rule of Two", it is meant to be "The Rule of Three." The whole point of the apprentice rising above his Master and killing him usually means he already has an apprentice himself. It is kinda an unspoken constant that three will exist for the latter part of the apprentice's journey.

SinrebirthImmortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWCStaff MemberManager

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Nov 15, 2004

Similarly, the Master can kill the apprentice and elevate their own candidate. I'd be inclined to argue that there can be up to four existing within the system.

I like the idea of each of them having a 'Shadow' apprentice.

Example during the Clone Wars...

Dark Lord of the Sith
Darth Sidious

Sith Apprentice
Darth Tyranus

Shadow Sith Apprentice (Dark Lord)
Anakin Skywalker

Shadow Sith Apprentice (Apprentice)
Asajj Ventress

That there are rogue Sith does not invalidate the direct line... between Darth Millennial, Set Harth, Vergere and Darth Maul, there is precedent for rogues not breaking the line of succession. I would expect that the Dark Lord and the Apprentice would, more often than not, be competing over the same Apprentice, though, and a single entity is joining the system. Like Sidious and Vader vying over Luke. That some of these third parties are acknowledged by the Master and Apprentice doesn't mean anything either. Sidious is just as invested in Starkiller as Vader, just as Lumiya is just as invested in Ben Skywalker as Caedus is.

You seriously have an issue with the entire "Treachery is the way of the Sith" thing? They obviously took their own rules with a grain of salt. Not to mention Vader planned to have Flint and Shira duel to the death and take the victor as his true apprentice.