1 <Day 30 2(10.30 a.m.) 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving? 4MR IRVING: May it please the court, may I just first begin, as 5this is our last informal session, so to speak, before we 6come to more formal matters, just by expressing words of 7my appreciation for the work put in by the defending firms 8of solicitors. They have had an extra burden put upon 9them by the fact that I am a litigant in person and I 10deeply appreciate their efficiency in this matter. 11I appreciate their help in this matter. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very fair of you to say that. 13MR IRVING: It is proper I should say that as a matter of 14record. My Lord, I have two or three matters to deal with 15today. If I can propose the agenda for this morning? It 16would be to deal with these two or three matters of mine 17first which include my points on the video films, then 18subsequently to take up the matter of your Lordship's list 19of issues, unless your Lordship wishes to put it the other 20way round? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: That sounds to me perfectly sensible. 22Mr Rampton, you do not object to that, do you? 23MR RAMPTON: What I would suggest we do is Mr Irving makes his 24points -- I had thought there was only the one individual 25video in question actually which was the Halle video -- if 26he makes on that, then Mr Julius, if your Lordship will,

. P-2

1will reply on that because he knows the story, I do not, 2and if it goes through me, I am likely to get it wrong. 3Then, when we have done that and your Lordship has made 4whatever ruling or decision is necessary, then we should 5go on to the list. I also want to say something about the 6closing speeches which, looking at the transcript of 7Thursday evening, it ended up in a bit of a muddle. I do 8not really know what it is that I am supposed to do, but 9I would like to go back to that and revisit that, if I 10may? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sure. So, Mr Irving, let us start off with 12the ---- 13MR IRVING: My Lord, I have put a small bundle, or two or three 14small bundles, in front of your Lordship. The one marked 15"A" in the top right-hand corner, as your Lordship will 16remember, there was a question as to whether the diary 17entry July 24th on a certain day was complete, and I have 18now disclosed voluntarily the entire diary entries for 19that week, effectively, which shows there was one sentence 20redacted. There was a suspicion, my Lord, that there 21might have been some reference to the National Alliance in 22that opening sentence and ---- 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: And there is not. 24MR IRVING: There is not. If the Defendants wish to send 25somebody to inspect the actual computer disk on which that 26entry is recorded, just to make sure it has not been

. P-3

1amended in some way, then I would be quite happy to ---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I doubt whether they will want to. 3MR IRVING: --- to establish. My Lord, little bundle B ---- 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am going to just put these 5documents where they belong. I will not do it now but can 6somebody give me the ---- 7MR RAMPTON: RWE 1. I cannot tell you -- tab 2. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 9MR IRVING: Little bundle B. Your Lordship wished to have a 10note on the BBC gas chamber propaganda, if I can put it 11like that. I have put together a two-page summary of a 12broadcast made by one broadcaster, Thomas Mann, the famous 13German novelist, in November, January and June 1942 which 14I think are the material dates, before the Rigner letter 15from Geneva, and attached to that are photocopies from the 16published version of his broadcasts, and the footnotes are 17the references from his diaries which fix the actual dates 18when the broadcasts were made. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did he talk about---- 20MR IRVING: He did talk about gas chambers. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- gas chambers? 22MR IRVING: My Lord, he talked about mass gassings at line 2 of 23the second page. He talked in the second item, which is 24dated January 1942, of 400 Young Dutch Jews being sent as 25test objects for poisons gas. He corrected that on June 2626th 1942 to say it was 800 who had been to Mauthausen

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1where they were gassed. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Again where is that? 3MR IRVING: My Lord, you have already had something like that 4similar, but not in that neater form. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Unfortunately, I have not, I think, now got 6all the... 7MR IRVING: I will certainly refer to that in my closing 8address with all that detail, and so you might wish just 9to throw those away. 10MS ROGERS: For ease, if you put in J2, tab 19, which is the 11next empty tab, we will provide an index to Mr Irving of 12everything that is in J2 and ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have done that almost up-to-date already, 14I think. 15MR IRVING: My Lord, the next matter is the Halle video or 16videos. If your Lordship will turn to bundle C, which is 17somewhat thicker, but I am not going to take you through 18all the documents on that, it was a bundle put together 19for the actual action in a lower court before Master 20Trench. It is bundle C. I have inserted just behind the 21index a photograph of the three original videos which fell 22into my hands. They look rather tatty and I attach 23importance to that. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say they fell into your hands, you 25got these from this week, did you? 26MR IRVING: Let me first of all set out ----

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1MR RAMPTON: I thought bundle C was the witness bundle, but it 2is obviously something different. 3MR IRVING: There should be three or four bundle Cs over there. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has "Halle" in the top right-hand corner 5under the "C". 6MR IRVING: "Halle" in the top right-hand corner and also ---- 7MR RAMPTON: I do not think I have got that. 8MR IRVING: I am sorry, could his Lordship possibly have a 9slightly better picture? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 11MR IRVING: My Lord, first of all, let me say that this is a 12matter which goes to the issue of evidence, the 13admissibility. It also goes to the question of the 14conduct of the case which has a bearing on damages and 15costs. So, I would ask your Lordship to bear those three 16matters in mind. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think I only really need to trouble 18you about admissibility. 19MR IRVING: At this stage. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to say anything about damages, 21then do that in your final speech. I understand the point 22you are making, but we are only really concerned with 23admissibility now. 24MR IRVING: Well, in that case that makes this session this 25morning much briefer because I was about to take your 26Lordship through the rather sorry history of how this

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1evidence was withheld from me. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think now is the right time to do 3that. What you are, presumably, going to say (and I 4express no view about it) is that the way in which they 5have dealt with this material is an illustration of the 6high handed way the Defendants have behaved and the 7offensive way in which they have conducted their case 8generally, is that the kind of point you are making? 9MR IRVING: I would have used different adjectives, but that is 10certainly my case, my Lord, that they have used muscle, 11they have used wealth, they have used power, they have 12used experience -- they are one of the most experienced 13firms of solicitors in this country, and I make no 14criticism of that fact -- against myself as a litigant to 15try to conceal evidence from me, although the Second 16Defendant had sworn an affidavit, they then referred me to 17the affidavit to prevent me from making further enquiries 18saying, "You can go behind that when the time comes to 19cross-examine", which, of course, has been denied me, that 20opportunity; and they have had these three versions of the 21Halle video in their hands, the Thames Television version 22as broadcast, the Dispatches version and then also the 23heavily edited version and then there is the raw version 24which I have looked at two or three times, particularly 25relating to the episode where I am standing making the 26speech in Halle. That too has been cut by the cameraman.

. P-7

1 If they are proposing to attach any weight to 2this, then I would wish to make objections which your 3Lordship can well apprehend what those objections would be 4as to the admissibility. It is edited material, as a 5document, a video is a document within the terms of the 6rules of evidence and the Rules of the Supreme Court. 7That is why I made the original application under rule 24 8I think 13 or 16 to have that material struck out because 9of the withholding of the evidence from me. We had quite 10an intensive session and Master Trench, because the 11solicitors in that case broke an undertaking to bring the 12originals to the High Court for the hearing before Master 13Trench, I was unable to establish that it was originals 14and, therefore, not privileged material. But that is, of 15course, the other matter. That goes to the conduct of the 16case. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Just concentrate on admissibility. As 18I understand it, you do not dispute that what was shown in 19court the other day is from a tape, but you say that it 20has been so heavily edited as to give a false impression 21of what actually happened? 22MR IRVING: It does not give ---- 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that the way you put it? 24MR IRVING: It does not give a complete record of my speech, my 25Lord. It omits major parts which, in fact, as your 26Lordship would see from the bundle of the letters I wrote

. P-8

1before I even was aware the tape existed when I was 2applying to all the television companies for the content 3of the speech, if your Lordship were to look at the 4letters that I wrote in April 1993 to all the television 5companies frantically trying to find anyone who had a copy 6of the original film, those are round about page 19, those 7are typical letters. Then I swore affidavits in Australia 8in 1994, that is long before this action was initiated, 9the present action, saying what was in it; the fact that 10I reprimanded the people for making these stupid slogans, 11and the fact that in the part of the speech that is cut 12out I said to the audience, "You people are all young. 13I am now old. It is the other way round. It used to be 14the old people sitting in front of me and me, the young 15person, talking to me, but now you, people, are young, 16I am old. I am talking to you. You are Germany's 17future. The world's eyes are upon you, you have to start 18behaving". That material, unfortunately, is part of the 19material that has been cut out of the video tape. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, so, I mean, what you are really saying 21is that even in its unedited form, that is to say, before 22the Defendants, as it were, got their hands on it, if 23indeed they did, it gives a false impression because the 24original team -- was it an Australian team -- did not 25actually video, or This Week or whoever it was, the whole 26of what you said?

. P-9

1MR IRVING: The particular one which we have is the This Week 2raw footage and it stops and starts, if I can put it like 3that? 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I appreciate that. 5MR IRVING: Therefore, it is an incomplete record of my 6speech. It may be a complete record or give a good image, 7and I admit this, of the kind of atmosphere and the flag 8waving, and this kind of thing, and I possibly even say 9that against myself, but as far as the content of my 10speech is concerned, it is a dodgy record. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. It seems to me what you are telling me 12now really does not amount to an objection as to the 13admissibility of the tape, but is rather a submission you 14want to make that it is so heavily edited that it does not 15give a fair impression of what actually happened. It 16seems to me, perhaps, to follow that the way to deal with 17the problem is not to rule the tape inadmissible, but to 18let you, if you have not already done so, indicate what it 19is that has not been taped which would give a completely 20different impression of what you said at that meeting. 21MR IRVING: Not only that, my Lord, but also the implication, 22the false implication, that may be given that because 23certain people are visible on the video, therefore, I knew 24them which, of course, easily obtained by cross-cutting 25and by cutting out large chunks. I would have preferred 26your Lordship to make a simple ruling that the tape may be

. P-10

1used as evidence for the atmosphere at that meeting, the 2kind of people who were there possibly even, but not as 3evidence for Mr Irving's contact with them. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not wholly disagree with that. I 5think the only thing I would add is there were some people 6there, and I am afraid the names are not actually at the 7front of my mind at the moment. 8MR IRVING: Christian Worch. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Althans was one, was he not? 10MR IRVING: Althans was not there. I think the relevant names, 11as far as Halle are concerned -- I am sure Mr Rampton or 12Miss Rogers will correct me -- Christian Worch, who was 13the organizer. I saw the video again last night. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no issue about you knew he was there 15and indeed you had some ---- 16MR IRVING: I knew he was there -- well, I found him there, put 17it like that. I travelled down there with his wife Uschi. 18She was there. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who was the other one who did the speech at 20the beginning with the slightly sort of receding hair? 21MR IRVING: I think the allegation is that Thomas Dienel was 22there, a man called Thomas Dienel. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, he was there, I think you accept that, 24and I would be inclined to conclude from the video that it 25was pretty obvious you realized he was there because he 26made the opening and closing speech. You may deny that,

. P-11

1but I mean that would seem to me to be the natural 2inference. 3MR IRVING: I shall certainly deny it when the time comes, my 4Lord, because I have looked at the video again last 5night. We are not visible together on the video and 6I have no notion who this man is. There must have been a 7couple of thousand people there whose names I do not know. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Again, you see, one has to look at the 9totality of the evidence, including your diary entries, as 10to how long you were there. It is the sort of thing I 11have to make my mind up about, I think. 12MR IRVING: In that case, my Lord, if you look at the 13affidavits and things which are contained in the bundle 14which I just gave you, you will see that I state: "10 15minutes, made the speech and left" which is as far as the 16demonstration was concerned. I went there, spoke for 10 17minutes or five minutes, then got straight in my car and 18drove off. So whoever else is visible on the video for 19the remaining half an hour or three-quarters of an hour, 20it is neither here nor there. Those affidavits, of 21course, were sworn back in '94 or '93, long before this 22action was commenced. 23 Of course, in my closing statement I am going to 24resist most energetically the notion that I had any 25knowledge of who those particular people were. A number 26of the people, I am quite happy to acknowledge having

. P-12

1known them, but I am certainly not going to admit knowing 2people like Thomas Dienel. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you follow the way I am thinking at 4the moment, and say anything else you want to, which is 5that I do not think there really is a reason for not 6admitting the video, but there is certainly every reason 7to listen to what you say about why it is unrepresentative 8of what happened. 9MR IRVING: Can we be specific which video we are talking 10about? There were three videos, my Lord. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Halle video. 12MR IRVING: Yes, but the three videos which were pictured on 13the photograph I gave your Lordship this morning, there 14are three videos. There are two raw videos and one 15broadcast video as broadcast by Tames TV and another one. 16I think we ought to know which one we are talking about as 17being admissible. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: As I say, I only saw one and I think you told 19me (but I may be wrong about this) that this was an edited 20version of the edited This Week version. 21MR RAMPTON: No. 22MR IRVING: No. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Pause a moment. 24MR IRVING: I think the one that you were shown, my Lord, was 25the raw version. 26MR RAMPTON: Yes. That is all there is.

. P-13

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is No. 223 in this little pile in your 2photograph? The top two are unedited material. 3MR IRVING: It was 226 or 227 you were shown, my Lord. It 4could have been either because I have checked both of 5them. They both contain the same footage whereas 223 is 6the version as broadcast. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see, right. What is the difference between 8226 and 227 then? 9MR IRVING: I have had a look at them and they appear to 10contain much the same raw material. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. 12MR IRVING: I do not know whether they are dupes or what. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think my comment still applies; it 14seems to me that is something that is legitimately 15available to the Defendants to use as evidence, subject to 16your entitlement to make the sort of comments that you 17have been making to me this morning. 18MR IRVING: I certainly shall and I shall make my comments 19about the manner in which they withheld it from me, 20knowing that I have been looking for it for five years. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I am not following at the moment, but 22that seems, perhaps, not to go to admissibility but to 23damages. 24MR IRVING: It does, well, to conduct of the case ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: It comes to the same thing. 26MR IRVING: --- which is a matter of cost as well.

. P-14

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, maybe. Do you want to say any more 2about it? 3MR IRVING: Not on the Halle video, my Lord. The other bundle 4E only went to the conduct of the case, my Lord. That was 5the evidence that they had withheld the -- which now 6brings us to your Lordship's list. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we get on to that, shall I ---- 8MR RAMPTON: I believe this hearing is in open court. 9Mr Irving has made some very grave allegations which, so 10far as I know, are completely illfounded against my 11solicitors. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to go into it at the moment. 13MR RAMPTON: No, I know, but I think, in fairness, they ought 14to have an opportunity to tell your Lordship briefly what 15did happen. I only say this, that what your Lordship has 16seen is not edited in the sense that somebody has sat in a 17cutting room cutting it. It is the film shot by the 18cameraman. One knows that it is entire because the timing 19thing, the little black oblong at the left-hand side, is 20continuous. So if it has been edited, it has been edited 21in that sense simply because the cameraman got bored and 22went and had a cup tea or whatever. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is not quite the way I would look 24at it. I suspect the cameraman, whoever he may have been, 25was looking for things that he thought would be good, 26juicy broadcasting material.

. P-15

1MR RAMPTON: No, I was being slightly frivolous, but if there 2has been any editing, it is by the become cameraman's own 3selection. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I follow that point. 5MR RAMPTON: And not by us. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a question of what he chose and what he 7did not chose to include. 8MR IRVING: My Lord, the cameraman was, I think, Michael 9Schmidt who was this cameraman ---- 10MR RAMPTON: That is as may be. He is not my servant or agent 11and we have nothing to do with the way that film looks on 12the screen. 13MR IRVING: Well, it goes to his Lordship's comment that the 14cameraman would have picked what interested him. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Julius, do we really benefit by going into 16detail as to the history of these videos? 17MR JULIUS: I do not think so, my Lord, and I am not proposing 18to do that. If I may, I will just make three points. The 19first point is nothing was withheld from Mr Irving. On 20the contrary, this is a tape on which we place some 21reliance. The suggestion that we would not want to show 22it to Mr Irving or to show it to the court is, of course, 23absurd. 24 The second point I make is that no undertaking 25was broken. 26 The third point I would make is the point that

. P-16

1has just been made by Mr Rampton, and that is that the 2tape your Lordship saw was not edited in any way. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think I had misunderstood the position 4as to the editing, but can you just help me about this? 5I am not sure that I know what or, indeed, need to know at 6this stage what the argument was, but you, you the 7Defendants, had in your possession a copy of these videos 8from when, from day one, as it were, or? 9MR JULIUS: No, my Lord. What happened was this. During the 10course of preparing the case for the trial, a huge amount 11of material, as your Lordship can imagine, was being 12generated. It was being generated within the firm, it was 13also coming in from third parties. Lists were being drawn 14up on a periodic basis to send the material over to 15Claimant. This came in, I understand, after the last list 16was produced and at the time the view that was taken of it 17was that it was material generated for the purposes of 18litigation and, therefore, on the face of it, privileged. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Privileged? How could it possibly be 20privileged? 21MR JULIUS: Well, this was the preliminary view that was 22taken. In the event, it is not privileged. In so far as 23privilege was ever claimed for it, the privilege was 24waived. It is plainly a video that is important to the 25case, relevant to the issues and disclosable to the 26Claimant. It was disclosed to him and he has had it for

. P-17

1a year now. He was keen to have it, and it is slightly 2odd that he should now be keen to exclude it. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask one more question? For how 4long was the claim for privilege maintained, as it were? 5MR JULIUS: I think two days, my Lord. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Well, as is obvious from what I have 7already said, I am satisfied that it is admissible, this 8tape, but I leave it open to both parties to make whatever 9comments they think it necessary or appropriate to make 10about the use that has been made of it in the short period 11when it was not disclosed on the basis it was privileged, 12and so on. Mr Irving, is that reasonably clear? 13MR IRVING: Very clear indeed, my Lord, yes. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: What does that leave? You have some comments 15to make about the opening, the list of issues? 16MR IRVING: I think both Mr Rampton and I have a few, 17I certainly have very few comments to make on your 18Lordship's list. I am going to use the list as a North 19Star by which I shall steer in my closing statement. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really what it was intended to do. 21MR IRVING: Because, obviously, the onus is on the Defence to 22justify ---- 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. 24MR IRVING: --- and they have to justify seriatim, whereas I 25shall reserve to myself the right to pick out major points 26which I consider would justify my conduct.

. P-18

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. One thing that I think is perhaps 2missing from this, and it is not missing because I did not 3have it in mind, it is just that it did not strike me as 4perhaps worth including a separate little heading for, but 5I mention it because you will want to place reliance on 6it, I have no doubt. 7MR IRVING: I am sure. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: That there are many assertions in ---- 9MR IRVING: Section 5. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- Professor Lipstadt's book which have not 11sought to be substantiated. 12MR IRVING: Section 5, my Lord, yes, the Hisbollah and 13Hammas ---- 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say section 5. That is perhaps a 15slightly defensive way of looking at it, but that is 16something that also needs to be addressed as a topic. 17MR IRVING: That was precisely the one point I was about to 18make, my Lord, that I was unaware whether this was a 19deliberate omission that you thought was unnecessary even 20to tell me that because ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think the reason for it, if there needs 22to be a reason, is that I was focusing entirely on the way 23the plea of justification is put. That does not, of 24course, mean that I do not have to have in mind what was 25published and what has not been sought to be justified. 26MR IRVING: That was, in fact, the only detailed point that

. P-19

1I wished to make about it, my Lord. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have one other observation which is 3probably sensible I should make whilst you are on your 4feet, and it relates to the, and it is my word, well, 5I think it is the Defendants' word but I picked it up in 6(ix) -- I do not know why it has become "P" but anyway -- 7the Claimant's honesty as an historian. I think that is a 8slightly unsatisfactory gloss to put on what I understand 9the Defendants' case to be, and I did not want you to be 10misled by the fact that I have used that label. It seems 11to me that it begs too many questions to be helpful. The 12allegation sought to be justified, and the meaning which 13it is accepted, I think, was borne by the words that 14Professor Lipstadt used, was that you were deliberating 15distorting the data, etc., etc., etc. ---- 16MR IRVING: Precisely. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- because you have an agenda of your own. 18Well, I can see that that might in some ways be described 19as dishonest conduct on the part of an historian, but 20I just thought I ought to make clear that I am not very 21happy with that word "honesty" used without a clear 22explanation of what in the context of this case it 23actually means. 24MR IRVING: My Lord, I had clearly apprehend exactly what your 25Lordship intends with that word. It is a manipulation, 26deliberate false translation and distortion.

. P-20

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will avoid it because I think it 2begs too many questions, as I say. So that is all you 3have, is it, on the ---- 4MR IRVING: No, my Lord, but I do know that Mr Rampton has a 5number of points that he wishes to make. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know he does and he has very 7helpfully, as you know, made some amendments to my list. 8MR IRVING: Which I wholeheartedly endorse. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: On the whole, I think I do too. 10MR RAMPTON: I am grateful for that. If your Lordship wanted a 11one word substitution for "honesty", it might be 12"integrity", "integrity as an historian". No, I prefer a 13longer version. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is better and I am not saying this 15tendentiously in either way. 16MR RAMPTON: No, I realise that. It was perhaps too narrow as 17it stood and perhaps "integrity" as well is too narrow for 18what we are talking about or we think we are talking 19about, but we know what comes in under this heading which 20already will have been dealt with as we have been through 21the historical distortions, if I can call them that. 22 My Lord, there is one typographical error in 235.1(e) in the bit which we added, "Hitler's views on the 24Jewish question during the war, including Goebbels' 25diaries entries", it should be the 22nd not the ---- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have the 21st actually. I have just

. P-21

1spotted that that was not right. I suspect the reason is 2it is a diary entry for the following day, I do not know. 3MR RAMPTON: That is right. Something went wrong there. Yes, 4and I do have the German of that which goes in bundle N at 5pages 127 and 127B. The English is already there, thanks 6to Professor Evans. But the German somehow got missed 7out. The relevant passage ---- 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is N? 9MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is N, N1. I do not think N has any 10children yet, has it? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it has. E is the most difficult one 12because ---- 13MR IRVING: It is very exclusive, is it not? It excludes a lot 14of the entries that I would have relied upon. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, yes, it is exclusive and at the same 16time it is inclusive. I had not realized it is spread as 17wide as this, at any rate in the context of the 18historiographical criticisms. 19MR RAMPTON: It does, and there are very, very grave criticisms 20to be made of Mr Irving in relation to each of those items 21in the bracket, and they all relate to the way in which, 22according to our case, he has tried to suppress, mollify 23or distort Hitler's expressions of his anti-Semitism 24during the war, particularly during the later part of 1941 25and the early part of 1942. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I can see how they come in now.

. P-22

1MR RAMPTON: Those are inclusive rather than exhaustive. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I mean the problem I have with them is 3that they come in elsewhere too. 4MR RAMPTON: I know they do. There is bound to be some 5repetition. That is inevitable. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. Can I ask you what the significance 7is, I think I do understand, of adding decrypts to 8whatever it is, 3B? 9MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is simply because Mr Irving relies on 10two pieces of evidence, if I can call it that, for the 11suggestion that the number killed or died at Auschwitz was 12really quite low. One is the death books which were 13released by Moscow sometime in recent years, and the other 14thing is the Hinsley decrypts do not make any reference 15gassings at Birkenhau. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 17MR RAMPTON: So they really go together, and our explanation 18for that is that really they are the same in both cases or 19similar anyway. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As I say, I am inclined to add, if we 21are making this as complete as it is becoming, two further 22topics at the end, which is the conclusion as to 23substantial truth and the availability, if required, of 24section 5, and then lastly damages, if any, injunction. 25If any. 26MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship be wanting then to transfer

. P-23

1some particularity out of 4 on the first page? 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because that is conclusions as to the law 3that applies, is it not, rather than conclusions? 4MR RAMPTON: So 11 would be facts arising out of 4, would it 5not, or something like that? 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 7MR RAMPTON: The facts governed by the principles in 4? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Good. If in the course of preparing 9final speeches either of you come across topics that 10should be there but still are not, perhaps you could let 11me know by fax? 12MR RAMPTON: We certainly will. That brings me to what to us 13is a matter of, to say some concern sounds over-dramatic, 14but it is this. I do not want and do not propose to ask 15your Lordship for permission to stand here for three days 16speaking. That would not be interesting for anybody and 17it would not be a good use of the court's time. However, 18this is a case of some peculiar importance, we would 19submit, and it has a legitimate interest for the public 20which runs far beyond the particular interests of the 21parties, and I do concede that it is the sort of case in 22which it would be appropriate, with your Lordship's 23permission, for both sides to be allowed to make a 24somewhat longer, but still not very long, longer closing 25statement than they made in opening. In my case, it would 26not necessarily follow the same structure as this, the

. P-24

1long version, but it would certainly reflect the material 2within it. 3 There are two next questions. First, when does 4your Lordship believe that that should happen, because 5again the public needs to know when it is going to 6happen? As a corollary of that, whether there is any 7possibility of accommodating rather more people in this 8court than are presently able to get in? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Taking all that in reverse order, and subject 10to Mr Irving and then you can comment if you wish, I see 11your point about letting more people in. This court I 12think in the end probably accommodates as many members of 13the public as any court does, but it is never enough in a 14case of this kind. But, yes, I think, subject to 15agreement with all those concerned, particularly the Usher 16who has done a rather excellent job of keeping things 17under control ---- 18MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has been sycophantic towards my 19solicitors, for which I genuinely and sincerely thank 20him, I do wish to say what a fantastic job the Usher has 21done. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think she has done a jolly good job because 23it is not all that easy. But, yes, within reason I think 24we will try to accommodate that. I am just wondering 25about the desirability of you and, if Mr Irving wishes to, 26Mr Irving, making what you might call the sort of public

. P-25

1comments that you wish to make, as it were, before we get 2on to the nitty-gritty of the closing speeches. 3MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship may well have rather, if I may say 4so without impertinence, a good point, because it does 5seem to me that when your Lordship has had a chance to 6look at the nitty-gritty, I am going to write the 7nitty-gritty first, and then what one might call the 8summary. I would suggest that it may be advantageous if 9your Lordship's mental process is the same, because when 10you have read the nitty-gritty, then you look at the 11summary and you say, oh, he cannot say that, it is not in 12the evidence or it is an exaggeration or whatever. One 13could get the long version to your Lordship, we will try 14to do it by Friday, but at any rate by Monday morning, 15take a day, because it will not take long to read as your 16Lordship is so familiar with the material, I can 17practically do it from memory now, and then look at the 18summary and then maybe read the summary on Tuesday, 14th. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, at all events whenever it happens, and 20it does not really matter whether it happens before or 21after the detailed submissions, my idea is that we might 22have the two final public speeches, if you follow what 23I mean, along side one another. 24MR RAMPTON: Absolutely, on the same day. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: And probably on Tuesday. 26MR IRVING: Not along side each other.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not simultaneously. 2MR RAMPTON: I do not think that would be music to anybody's 3ears I have to say, but certainly on the same day. It 4would have to be, I say "have to be", that is excessive, 5but it would be desirable to have a fixed day because 6there will be people coming from all over the world to 7attend to attend. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we say Wednesday, because I suspect 9that will get us most of the way through the detailed 10submissions. 11MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship expressed the desire I think 12to have the opportunity to ask questions on the basis ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 14MR RAMPTON: Yes, absolutely. 15MR IRVING: When do you wish to do this, after the verbal 16part? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, what I am getting at is if we have two 18full days, Monday 13th and Tuesday 14th, I think we will 19be most of the way through closing speeches, I suspect, if 20you let me do a bit of reading beforehand. Then on 21Wednesday, there may be a little left over, but Wednesday 22would be a good opportunity I think to make these 23statements for public consumption, which in the context of 24this case is legitimate. I think in other cases it might 25not be. 26MR IRVING: So, if I understood it correctly because there was

. P-27

1some confusion on Thursday evening, by the weekend I and 2Mr Rampton would have submitted to your Lordship a paper 3version of what we intend to say? 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can do that it would be helpful, that 5I think is what I said on Thursday. 6MR IRVING: On the basis of which on Monday and Tuesday you 7will ask us questions, and on Wednesday we read out either 8in Mr Rampton's case his summary or in my case whatever 9I consider necessary of my speech in public. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. When you say I will ask questions, do 11not put the ball wholly in my court. I am hoping you will 12submit something in writing, but will also make the points 13that you regard as most significant and then I can pick 14you up on them if needs be. 15MR IRVING: My Lord, I am making further submissions, as your 16Lordship is aware, of which of course the Defence have not 17had a chance to answer, and it is only fair they should 18have a chance to answer and say, "This be struck out, that 19is not admissible, yes, this one is very powerful indeed". 20MR RAMPTON: I would propose this, that we, with Mr Irving, it 21does not need to involve the court, we make a date and a 22time for exchange of the long versions, and also the 23summaries if they are ready by then, then we see whether 24there is any water between us, and it may well be that 25there is, either side may be something the other side does 26not think they ought to be allowed to say, and your

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1Lordship may also have some queries or questions of your 2own. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As to timing, if you could do it by 4close of business on Thursday, even if it is not the 5final -- you could not? 6MR IRVING: No, not by Thursday. 7MR RAMPTON: I could not possibly do it by then. I will try to 8do by close of business on Friday. It will not take very 9long to read. One reads quite quickly when one knows a 10case well. I am told Friday logistically is optimistic. 11We will do the best we can. We will fix that with 12Mr Irving. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not say anything about it, except that 14I think we ought to have speeches on Monday 13th. I do 15not want a slip on that. 16MR RAMPTON: A discussion about speeches? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: The detail of speeches will start on Monday 1813th. 19MR IRVING: But they will not be public at that time? 20MR RAMPTON: The public can be in court during the discussion. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course they can, but there is extra 22accommodation being laid on, as it were, for Wednesday. 23MR RAMPTON: The only other question is, and normally speaking 24in a case like this when one has written a long speech 25which the Judge has read, even if one is not going to read 26it in court, it will of course be accessible to anybody

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1who wants a copy of it, whether they pay for it or whether 2they do not, and there ought to be perhaps an embargo on 3the release of the long version until the discussion about 4the long version has concluded. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, without any doubt. 6MR RAMPTON: That leads me to mention one other thing. I am a 7bit of ahead of myself. It is this. When your Lordship 8comes to give judgment in the normal way the solicitors 9and counsel get a copy of the judgment a day before. 10Mr Irving does not have solicitors or counsel. (A) it is 11not fair if we get it a day before and he does not. (B) 12it is not fair if he gets a copy himself and my clients do 13not. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oddly enough I did not think I have ever had 15it. 16MR RAMPTON: I have. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: One has had cases with litigants in person, 18but I have never had this particular problem about how you 19deal with -- my instinct would be that Mr Irving does get 20it at the same time as your legal team get it, but that he 21is, as it were, strictly embargoed as to the use that he 22can make of it. That seem to me to be the fair-handed way 23of doing it. 24MR RAMPTON: That is all I am concerned about. What I do not 25want is him getting it into the public forum before we do, 26if I can put it crudely.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I mention some things that perhaps should 2be done before speeches. One is the Muller document. 3MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is in hand. It is being dealt with by 4Dr Longerich who is dealing directly with Munich and I 5think also with Ludwigsburg where it is thought there is 6another copy. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bearing in mind how quick Munich was to 8respond on the other document, I would be hopeful that you 9would be able to let me have something this week. 10MR RAMPTON: Yes. This is more problematical because they have 11been given the wrong file reference. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought they had tracked down the right 13file? 14MR RAMPTON: No, they know that it is the wrong one. They 15think they have the document but they have got to find 16it. 17MR IRVING: The problem with Munich is all that all that they 18have is a duplicated copy. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know and that is why enquiries are being 20made of other archives, as I understand it. That is 21fine. Mr Rampton, the other thing, and it is the only 22thing that I think I need to ask you about is, I think you 23were going to give me a little bit help on what you might 24call the American Civil Evidence Act statements. 25MR RAMPTON: Yes. That is in charge of Miss Rogers. We are 26just down to the one now. The only one of the factual

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1Civil Evidence Act witnesses we want to use is Rebecca 2Guttmann about the National Alliance which I have already 3cross-examined on. Your Lordship can have this. It has 4file C, Rebecca Guttmann, and the rest can be chucked 5away. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say the rest, can I be absolutely 7clear about what can be chucked away? 8MR RAMPTON: Everybody else in file C. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: File C or C1? 10MR RAMPTON: I call mine C. It has 425 pages. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. 12MR RAMPTON: And it is called Defendants Witness statements 13I should think. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I now seem to have back the file I swore 15blind I never had. 16MR RAMPTON: That is the one with the National Alliance 17material behind it. 18MR IRVING: When you say you are using Rebecca Guttmann's 19statement, does that mean to say you are also using all 20the appendices to it, or relying on them? 21MR RAMPTON: Yes. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was going to ask. 23MR RAMPTON: Yes, I rely on the material that she picked up at 24a National Alliance meeting in 1998 at which Mr Irving 25gave a speech. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.