Much easier said than done, Chairman Bill. Some of the greatest scientists and rational thinkers have professed a belief in some sort of God, including Albert Einstein, although Einstein's belief seems to have been more along the lines of Intelligent Design rather than a belief in a personal deity who intervenes in human affairs.

Voltaire was a fairly rational and enlightened sort of guy, wouldn't you agree? Yet one of his most famous sayings is, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

Be careful now, lest Judgement Day be upon you.

(Attached image was processed on my Dell Notebook. Not sure about color calibration, so if it looks a bit odd, that's the explanation.)

Ray, I had prepared an answer to Chairman Bills post along these lines but find that you have expressed my thoughts in a more intelligent manner than I ever could.

I would add though that if it was not for a belief in 'something else' then would mankind have achieved what he has? Would simple rationality have led to the pyramids, cathedrals, stupendous works of art and so on. Further to your list of philosophers I would also add the name of that most rational of men, Buzz Aldrin, he would hardly have got to the moon if he was thought to be otherwise, and yet his first act upon landing was to take communion.

Much easier said than done, Chairman Bill. Some of the greatest scientists and rational thinkers have professed a belief in some sort of God, including Albert Einstein, although Einstein's belief seems to have been more along the lines of Intelligent Design rather than a belief in a personal deity who intervenes in human affairs.

Einstein is usually trotted out as theist, by those making this sort of case. He was at best, a deist, just like most of the US 'Founding Fathers'. As for the Intelligent Design idiocy - I don't think he'd have gone for anything like it. There's certainly no evidence whatsoever that he did. More a 'if there's a god, it lit the blue touch paper & stood well back, then let the cosmos do its thing' sort of bloke.

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Voltaire was a fairly rational and enlightened sort of guy, wouldn't you agree? Yet one of his most famous sayings is, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

Voltaire was a deist, and at a time when science had barely begun to scratch the surface. No theory of evolution - a tipping point in humanity's journey from supernaturalism to rationality - and so like many people of reason, god/God filled the gaps. Those gaps have got so small now ...

I will therefore assert that according to my authoritative sources, the US is - in fact - a "democracy".

Can you please share your source of definitions?

I pulled mine out of my ass ... Where did you get yours?

Article 4 Section 4 the US Constitution.

The United States is a Republic. It has a representative democracy form of government which is a type of republic.

Government; Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. In re Duncan, 139 U.S. 449, 11 S.Ct. 573, 35 L.Ed. 219; Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. (21 Wall.) 162, 22 L.Ed. 627. [Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 626]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, pp. 388-389.

I am interested in seeing your sources...well, on second thought, you already shared your source, so never mind. Oh, maybe your pledge of allegiance states:I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,and to the Democracy for which it stands,one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. If that is true, then it is so for you.

Gods are simply argument from ignorance & incredulity. That and a means of dealing with existential angst & fear of death. Where does lightning come from? Er, must be some magic thing, maybe a god. Where do we go when we die? There must be some nice place where we meet all our ancestors, etc, yada, yada, yada.

Gods are simply argument from ignorance & incredulity. That and a means of dealing with existential angst & fear of death. Where does lightning come from? Er, must be some magic thing, maybe a god. Where do we go when we die? There must be some nice place where we meet all our ancestors, etc, yada, yada, yada.

Where we going after we die? Well, I know u going direct to hell...U won't be able to see where i am going U will be blind as U are now, with your messiah of Baca huessin Obama...

Whatever u smoking, its getting to you...Should be a new LAW, U want to smoke, the weird stuff, u must work for it, if Hussein obama give to you, U should be hung in the street, in a tree in a public park...bet the smoke will stop, a list I will pay less taxes, in people will think before get free stuff.

U R young, go to work...

God, the real Messiah one, help us all for the next for years.

U blind already, so your messiah, won't help U ,,,sorry u done...

Oh what I take for med? or if I took my med,,yes..I paid for, work for it...No free, in paid taxes as well..oh lord!, , its Remy Martin, when is cold, if its hot, I drink Santa Margarita , in for dinner I drink every night chateauneuf-du-pape..wine...Nice, but, cost cash, in if u smoke the other stuff, will not be cash left for this..sorrySo there u go with my med....I know yours, so, keep it for your self. WOW

Thanks.....

Should this be about God now? the real one? or the one U think its for U? hussein obama

Gods are simply argument from ignorance & incredulity. That and a means of dealing with existential angst & fear of death. Where does lightning come from? Er, must be some magic thing, maybe a god. Where do we go when we die? There must be some nice place where we meet all our ancestors, etc, yada, yada, yada.

You do seem a rather cynical sort of bloke, Chairman Bill. But I think your cynicism might be preferrable to BlasR's rantings.

Just a small point; don't you mean, "Gods are simply argument from ignorance and credulity." Surely it is the atheistic argument that would be from incredulity.

We should not forget that what we know, pales into insignificance compared with what we don't know. We don't even know what 95% of the matter and energy in our universe consists of. We give it the euphemistic name of Dark Matter and Dark Energy. In reality, it's not only dark, it's completely invisible and undetectable in any shape or form.

Most astronomers presume it exists, because, if it doesn't, many of their current theories will have to be revised, modified or junked.

Gods are simply argument from ignorance & incredulity. That and a means of dealing with existential angst & fear of death. Where does lightning come from? Er, must be some magic thing, maybe a god. Where do we go when we die? There must be some nice place where we meet all our ancestors, etc, yada, yada, yada.

Now now Bill, with all due respect you're just being a teeny bit silly.

Let us forget about gods for a moment, and it is possible for even Eistein favoured God as a presence, a combination of attributes rather than a spirit or anything more solid still. Instead, let us think about belief. Belief in what though? As I see it there is an irrational and a rational answer depending upon your upbringing, education, philosophy or anything else that has influenced your approach to the question.

The irrational answer is the 'magic thing' as you put it. Something else that is hidden from us, a spiritual world where souls reside occasionally manifesting themselves in a space that we call reality before returning to another place. However you dress it up this is the basis of most religions, it's the binary code or DNA of the churches and belief systems that now represent the spiritual nature of society throughout the world. It is what many people believe in whether through choice or cultural influence and that is to be respected.

The rational approach is to consider why it is that mankind is so susceptible to the irrational and here the answer may lie in man's need for survival, or more precisely, our genes need to ensure they get propagated. If man, as a sentient being, is aware that he is alive then he is also aware of the possibility of not being alive and not being alive means that that genes don't get passed on. Darwinism will insist that there needs to be a mechanism to ensure we make every effort to stay alive and so continue with the survival of the species. If we had no internal emotion that urged us to live then we probably wouldn't bother hence the success of the instinct to consider the state of living to have some purpose.

No doubt Bill you have some sort of motivation to get up each morning. What is it? My guess is that it is belief in yourself rather than a god, or are you going to claim that you believe in nothing?

Where we going after we die? Well, I know u going direct to hell...U won't be able to see where i am going U will be blind as U are now, with your messiah of Baca huessin Obama...

When I die, my remains will rot away. Just like everyone else's. As for Obama being my messiah ... wow. The depth of stupidity in the suggestion is profound. Obama is a right wing politician. I'm not going to look to him for my political (or any other) guidance. The implied spiritual aspect ('cos messiah does imply that) is irrelevant. I don't believe in magic sky pixies, and I don't need a messiah to save me from said sky pixie.

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Whatever u smoking, its getting to you...Should be a new LAW, U want to smoke, the weird stuff, u must work for it, if Hussein obama give to you, U should be hung in the street, in a tree in a public park...bet the smoke will stop, a list I will pay less taxes, in people will think before get free stuff.

I don't smoke, have never smoked, and as I'm a Brit, Obama is giving nothing to me. As for the suggestion that I should be hung from a tree in a public park ... well, I can just feel that Christian love.

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U R young, go to work...

Actually I'm not young, but I do work. Thanks.

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God, the real Messiah one, help us all for the next for years.

U blind already, so your messiah, won't help U ,,,sorry u done...

Thanks. I'd never have worked out that your invisible friend won't help me, without you telling me first, though I did know that he doesn't cure blindness, just as he doesn't make amputees limbs grow back either.

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Oh what I take for med? or if I took my med,,yes..I paid for, work for it...No free, in paid taxes as well..oh lord!, , its Remy Martin, when is cold, if its hot, I drink Santa Margarita , in for dinner I drink every night chateauneuf-du-pape..wine...Nice, but, cost cash, in if u smoke the other stuff, will not be cash left for this..sorrySo there u go with my med....I know yours, so, keep it for your self. WOW

You do seem a rather cynical sort of bloke, Chairman Bill. But I think your cynicism might be preferrable to BlasR's rantings.

A skeptic rather than a cynic

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Just a small point; don't you mean, "Gods are simply argument from ignorance and credulity." Surely it is the atheistic argument that would be from incredulity.

No, I meant argument from incredulity. It's of the kind, 'I can't believe all this happened/is here, without a god being behind it all'. The argument is one from a position of incredulity.

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We should not forget that what we know, pales into insignificance compared with what we don't know.

Quite. And about a huge amount of things, the best & most honest answer I can give is simply, I don't know. And rather than make stuff up, I just accept that I don't know. Some others tell me what I don't know, but then go on and assert the existence of a god to fill those gaps in what is known & not known. The implication is that they do know - goddidit. Of course, they're just making stuff up, rather than admitting that they don't know.

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We don't even know what 95% of the matter and energy in our universe consists of. We give it the euphemistic name of Dark Matter and Dark Energy. In reality, it's not only dark, it's completely invisible and undetectable in any shape or form.

I'd like a referecne or three for the assertion that we don't know what 95% of the energy/matter in the cosmos is, and as for what scientists are calling 'dark matter', we haven't detected it yet. That doesn't mean it's undetectable. Measurements suggest the presence of something.

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Most astronomers presume it exists, because, if it doesn't, many of their current theories will have to be revised, modified or junked.

Astrophysicists posit the existence of something (currently termed 'dark matter'), because measurement data suggests the presence of something. That's what theories do - explain data. The best of them also make testable predictions, and all of them are falsifiable. All it takes is data they can't/don't account for.

Now now Bill, with all due respect you're just being a teeny bit silly.

How so?

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... The rational approach is to consider why it is that mankind is so susceptible to the irrational and here the answer may lie in man's need for survival, or more precisely, our genes need to ensure they get propagated.

Of course the susceptibility to supernaturalism has its roots in evolutionary processes. I've no doubt that jumping at shadows & being afraid of the dark have survival advantages, albeit they bring stress, and superstitions can help cope with that stress, and over time ... well that's the history of religion. I've never doubted the utility of it, but like so many things, it brings its own problems. The point is, however helpful some may find it, whatever its utility, that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that it is helpful to persist with it. We have an appendix, which once served some useful purpose - it's still there, but more a potential problem than anything else.

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... No doubt Bill you have some sort of motivation to get up each morning. What is it? My guess is that it is belief in yourself rather than a god, or are you going to claim that you believe in nothing?

The alarm clock does it, if the birds haven't got there first. Did god invent alarm clocks?

There must be some nice place where we meet all our ancestors, etc, yada, yada, yada.

Exhibit B.

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The alarm clock does it, if the birds haven't got there first. Did god invent alarm clocks?

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Of course the susceptibility to supernaturalism has its roots in evolutionary processes. I've no doubt that jumping at shadows & being afraid of the dark have survival advantages, albeit they bring stress, and superstitions can help cope with that stress, and over time ... well that's the history of religion. I've never doubted the utility of it, but like so many things, it brings its own problems. The point is, however helpful some may find it, whatever its utility, that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that it is helpful to persist with it. We have an appendix, which once served some useful purpose - it's still there, but more a potential problem than anything else.The alarm clock does it, if the birds haven't got there first. Did god invent alarm clocks?

And you can prove that it's not true, that there is no other universe or altered state that science is unaware of? The metaverse theory has been around a long time time now and is not totally discredited, likewise the Higgs field was only a 'belief' until billions were spent on proving it's existence and if that is one force that we were unaware of how many others might there be? These are not arguments for the existence of God or another world, just suggestions that we should keep an open mind for 'God' may turn out to be something totally unexpected that neither the romantics or rational envisaged. Besides which having a belief in something makes makes you little more finished as a human and can add an extra dimension to life. Try it sometime.

No, because you can't disprove a negative. And in just the same way, you can't disprove the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bbhhh), or the dragon in Carl Sagan's garage, or Russell's Flying Teapot.

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... that there is no other universe or altered state that science is unaware of?

The thing is, without unambiguous, incontrovertible evidence, why shouyld anyone believe in such things? These things might exist. I don't know. I'm not going to assert that they do on the basis of whim or fanciful imaginings.

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... The metaverse theory has been around a long time time now and is not totally discredited, likewise the Higgs field was only a 'belief' until billions were spent on proving it's existence and if that is one force that we were unaware of how many others might there be?

The multiverse is a theory, derived from mathematics, and is just one explanation for the data we have. It is indeed not totally discredited, but to be a scientific theory it must be falsifiable, and all it takes is data that it can't account for. The Higgs Boson was something predicted by a theory, and data now suggests it does indeed exist. Theory & data (evidence) is a different category from 'belief'.

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... These are not arguments for the existence of God or another world, just suggestions that we should keep an open mind for 'God' may turn out to be something totally unexpected that neither the romantics or rational envisaged.

An open mind is just fine. I still lack belief in gods. I'm not stating that something that we might terms god(s) definitely does not exist, but the lack of any positive evidence for such things is cause enough to doubt. Equally, leprechauns & gnomes might exist, and the Tooth Fairy may well be true. I keep as open a mind in respect of these things as I do god(s).

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... Besides which having a belief in something makes makes you little more finished as a human and can add an extra dimension to life. Try it sometime.

Any evidence for this assertion? I see the Westboro Baptist Church believe in something - are they 'more finished' human beings? Hitler had lots of beliefs in all sorts of supernaturalist nonsense ... and having invoked Godwin's Law, shall we leave it there?

I'd like a referecne or three for the assertion that we don't know what 95% of the energy/matter in the cosmos is, and as for what scientists are calling 'dark matter', we haven't detected it yet. That doesn't mean it's undetectable. Measurements suggest the presence of something.Astrophysicists posit the existence of something (currently termed 'dark matter'), because measurement data suggests the presence of something. That's what theories do - explain data. The best of them also make testable predictions, and all of them are falsifiable. All it takes is data they can't/don't account for.

The problem is that what has been observed in the distant galaxies has not been predicted or explained by the existing theories. What has been observed is in fact drastically different from what the theories predict. We have observed behaviour that is inconsistent with existing theories, so an hypothesis has been created that supposes the existence of huge quantities of, so far, undetected dark matter and energy which would preserve the validity of our currently accepted theories, if and when we are able to detect it.

That there was something odd going on with regard to observed data in the universe, which was inconsistent with our theories, occurred as long ago as 1932. Since that time we've been frantically searching for the hypothesised dark matter stuff, but so far not a single dark atom, dark electron, proton or photon equivalent has been found. Zilch, Nada. It's even more invisible than the HG Wells' Invisible Man.

But there's great hope the stuff will eventually be detected. The recent discovery of what is presumed to be the Higgs Boson particle has renewed hope that sooner or later we will detect the elusive dark stuff, which it is assumed is completely different from the usual protons and electrons, ie. non-baryonic.

jeremypayne

Article 4 guarantees the states a "republican form of government". It does not state that the US is NOT a democracy.

Ever occur to you that it isn't a one-to-one, mutually exclusive thing?

Ever occur to you that the US can be BOTH a republic AND a democracy?

Your quote actually proves my point ...

"Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, pp. 388-389."

Democracy is NOT distinguished from a republic. By this definition, the US is unambiguously a democracy.

You are very argumentative and confrontational about semantics ... it would be preferable if you stuck to ideas as your semantic arguments aren't terribly interesting.

No, because you can't disprove a negative. And in just the same way, you can't disprove the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bbhhh), or the dragon in Carl Sagan's garage, or Russell's Flying Teapot.The thing is, without unambiguous, incontrovertible evidence, why shouyld anyone believe in such things? These things might exist. I don't know. I'm not going to assert that they do on the basis of whim or fanciful imaginings.The multiverse is a theory, derived from mathematics, and is just one explanation for the data we have. It is indeed not totally discredited, but to be a scientific theory it must be falsifiable, and all it takes is data that it can't account for. The Higgs Boson was something predicted by a theory, and data now suggests it does indeed exist. Theory & data (evidence) is a different category from 'belief'.An open mind is just fine. I still lack belief in gods. I'm not stating that something that we might terms god(s) definitely does not exist, but the lack of any positive evidence for such things is cause enough to doubt. Equally, leprechauns & gnomes might exist, and the Tooth Fairy may well be true. I keep as open a mind in respect of these things as I do god(s).Any evidence for this assertion? I see the Westboro Baptist Church believe in something - are they 'more finished' human beings? Hitler had lots of beliefs in all sorts of supernaturalist nonsense ... and having invoked Godwin's Law, shall we leave it there?

The greatest evidence I have for the assertion that an open mind and some form of belief makes us a little more human is presented within your postings. The calculated denial of anything that smacks of sitting outside of mainstream science suggests a lack of warmth, compassion, emotion and humility which are all traits that most of us find attractive in people. Your belief that nothing can exist until there is a sound and demonstrable explanation indicates that either you have little experience of the world or that you have deliberately isolated yourself from anything that that induces uncertainty in your model of how nature operates. Why are yo so afraid of embracing ideas that, at best, are considered to be on the fringe?

So what evidence is there that rational western science may not have all the answers? Well there is water dowsing for a start. My brother had rather a knack for it, but it doesn't work for me. Look it up on Wikipedia and you are faced with a tirade of denial quoting all sorts of laboratory based trials that appear to disprove it, so obviously it can be dismissed as bunkum. But wait a minute, another experiment based in the real world shows remarkably different results -

To do this, researchers teamed geological experts with experienced dowsers and then set up a scientific study group to evaluate the results. Drill crews guided by dowsers didn't hit water every time, but their success rate was impressive. In Sri Lanka, for example, they drilled 691 holes and had an overall success rate of 96 percent.

"In hundreds of cases the dowsers were able to predict the depth of the water source and the yield of the well to within 10 percent or 20 percent," says Hans-Dieter Betz, a physicist at the University of Munich, who headed the research group.

So who do we believe, the sceptics sneering at poor lab results or workers in the field relying on dowsers to help alleviate the suffering of the poor?

The more I experience life the more I come to think that science is often asking the wrong questions, it is too hidebound, too scared to really experiment, it follows ever narrower channels of investigation rather than sitting back and looking at the bigger picture. There maybe a great deal to be discovered about how the universe operates but it will remain unexplored because science 'won't go there', and it won't go there because Chaiman Bill and others will laugh from their ivory towers.

Here's a quote from an article I wrote 32 years ago: "Science, effective as it may be at providing better living through chemistry and better destruction through physics, isnít capable of providing the beliefs that hold a society together. As someone once said, 'Science can tell you how everything works, but it canít tell you what anything is for.'Ē For anyone interested, the article's at http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/commoncause.html. I doubt anybody will be interested since it's clear most of the minds in this thread have long been made up and don't want to be bothered with arguments or facts.