gregkavarnos wrote:Well that's wierd, the first time I clicked on the link I got a lovely glowing account of how lovely and holy the two lovely retreatants were and except for a lovely altercation regarding a lovely knife everything else was just holy and errrrr... lovely!

But the next time I clicked on the link (to read the comments that I had overlooked) it took me to a completely different article, something about a Garuda... Go figure!

The blog post itself is silly fan girl stuff. Scroll down and click the View Comments link at the very bottom. The Jerry Kelly comment I was referring to is about third comment down.

Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

This teacher, guessing from the comments here....sounds pretty suspect.I don't of course know this person who died nor the teacher.Fair I'd say to critique his teachings and all the rest.

The death?People die all the time for all sorts of reasons to include karmic predisposition which is very very difficult to change.A long distance runner ultra runner MIcah True just died while on a run in the Gila wilderness of new mexico. NO trauma evidently from natural causes, possibly dehydrated some sort of metabolic imbalance related to potassium is my guess.In prefect health, only 58, and a long long advocate and teacher of ultra running.So he died.Does that say anything about his status within his community, because he died while performing his art....not really.

Someone wants to say MIcah True was all wrong about ultra running...sure fair game.HIs death proving in any extent he was all wrong about ultra running.....not fair game. People die for all sorts of reasons, being in retreat or ultra running at the time unless corroborating evidence is provided....says nothing to their personal performance of their respective arts.

Death by truma is not inferred at present in either situation of death.People die at all times and ages and for a multitude of reasons and rationals. Most not known to us.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Pero wrote:So uhm, is there Kali in the Gelug tradition? Or in any other?

You know I get kinda p*ssed off when people start implying supernatural causes in situations like this. Ooh it must be the dharma protectors taking revenge on samaya breakers. Oooh there must be rgyal po interfering with the retreat. Oooh the gnas gdon are hostile to the dharma and causing obstacles. And so on and so forth. The tragedy at Diamond Mountain was due to very human weaknesses. To suggest otherwise, absolves those involved of the blame due them and denies the victim the justice due him.

Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.

No charges of any sort were preferred in this incident of death it seems.Water was to be tested to determine if it contained some bad things.As no reports were forthcoming I'd suppose nothing untoward was found.

His woman companion was treated for dehydration and released. Food and water were present in the cave, as were sleeping bags.

I'd say a important lesson from this is....Some peoples may engage in fasting as lower tantric practice.It is quite common in buddhism.If one does so one must must stay hydrated.In fast the body essentially feeds upon itself and developed many waste products, ketones and such, not normally found in such concentrations.So they must be diluted and excreted...water does this.If not it is easy to see how a electrolyte imbalance may occur, with organ consequence.In sufficient amount such a thing may participate a cardiac event.

I have heard of buddhists engaging in fast without hydration....I would say this is not proper to do, it may harm. Even short fasts.

So fast but hydrate, while fasting.This is of course conjecture but I could easily see this happening and have heard some even on internet boards reference fasting without hydrating.....it should not be done, ever to my strong opinion.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Pero wrote:So uhm, is there Kali in the Gelug tradition? Or in any other?

You know I get kinda p*ssed off when people start implying supernatural causes in situations like this. Ooh it must be the dharma protectors taking revenge on samaya breakers. Oooh there must be rgyal po interfering with the retreat. Oooh the gnas gdon are hostile to the dharma and causing obstacles. And so on and so forth. The tragedy at Diamond Mountain was due to very human weaknesses. To suggest otherwise, absolves those involved of the blame due them and denies the victim the justice due him.

Pero wrote:So uhm, is there Kali in the Gelug tradition? Or in any other?

You know I get kinda p*ssed off when people start implying supernatural causes in situations like this. Ooh it must be the dharma protectors taking revenge on samaya breakers. Oooh there must be rgyal po interfering with the retreat. Oooh the gnas gdon are hostile to the dharma and causing obstacles. And so on and so forth. The tragedy at Diamond Mountain was due to very human weaknesses. To suggest otherwise, absolves those involved of the blame due them and denies the victim the justice due him.

Knotty Veneer,

I may be speaking out of turn however I believe Pero's reference to Kali was because Christie McNally said the following in the document "A Shift in the Matrix"

So we prayed together to everyone we could think of for help, including Kali.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

DBH.....this..."There are lineages where no one has died during retreat in 1000 years, which means ever. "

Since some in Tibetan buddhism engage in lifelong retreats ...did you mean perhaps none has died in 3 year retreats?

I

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

I am certainly no detective but this really only makes sense if the death was a congenital heart disorder or they were fasting but not hydrating.Since she was dehydrated to the extent of needing medical attention and there was water food and sleeping bags in the cave(water being tested)...the most rational conclusion is that they were fasting and not hydrating.

That is not unheard of in buddhism.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Knotty Veneer wrote:In response to Namdrol's point that two explanations are not mutually exclusive, as I am not privy to the decisions of the Dharma Protectors I cannot say. However, I think in this case there are plenty of plain old rational explanations for what led to this sorry situation that any intervention by supernatural forces would be superfluous.

Gdon attacking retreatants and causing them to behave in bizarre ways is not unheard of. For example, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo was attacked by Gyalpo Pehar, for which he resorted to the meditation of Acala.

Likewise, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje was assigned by Dudjom Rinpoche to do retreat in a cave where several people had died, presumably becuase there was a malevolent gdon that inhabited the place. His attendent was so freaked out, he left after only a few days.

Having myself done a solitary three year retreat, I can report that one's imagination can run away with itself. I can remember having a fantasy, among other fanatasies, that a chainsaw that my dad gave me to cut wood for myself suddenly started and chased me around the cabin. I had a similar fantasy about an axe.

These fantasies were very vivid. I of course understood they were merely fanatasies, but they were powerful. I can remember brooding about what I would do in case of a nuclear emergency, and wondering which way I would go, west to find my parents, or east to find my best friend, etc.

Further, it is very easy for people in retreat to be subject of provocations of various kinds.

Despite the fact that we all generally are not super impressed with the Diamond Mountain scene (but then I am not super impressed with any of the missionary Buddhist organizations in the US, regardless of lineage or affiliation), the meltdown of Macnally and Thorson's retreat and ensuing tragedy should be met with compassion. Further, it must be very difficult for the other people in the retreat as well.

Well just playing amateur detective here...I'd surmise if they had been suffering such the news report would have stated this was likely due to a illness.

There was no reported follow up to the story so I can assume the water tests came back negative...or else it would have been reported.A poison and the case would have likely been deemed suspicious, and that would be reported and be a bit of news in this small berg.

Deaths from dehydration amongst campers in this area are not all that unusual as the area is high hot and dry.So commonplace I,d guess that was the actual cause of death.Probably cardiac arrest precipitated by a state of dehydration.

UNless other things present that's the story as I read it.Why a buddhist being dehydrated in a retreat cave.....as they were not campers and were not hiking or running or jogging or climbing mountains.....a period of fast for spiritual purpose makes sense to me.No other means for sudden dehydration was present in that particular circumstance.

Did they think they were subject to poisoned water and then did not drink....well we could conjecture but then they would rationally be trying to find or get other water...they were seemingly not doing so....nothing states or infers that. Certainly they case then would be subject to a suspicious cause and reported as such with a grand jury to boot.....nothing states that.

Maybe not on fast....that part is conjecture obviously, but it makes sense if you think about it.They would not be doing those other things in retreat but possibly a fast.Even very active sex in practicing a form of tantra would not seemingly produce a abnormally dehydrated state.

My basic point is apparently by the statements here the teacher is faulted, but we are confusing a singular death as pointing to the fault of the teacher....like as not not. The teacher faulted may be valid but not connected to this singular thing. People die in all sorts of circumstances at all sorts of ages. On retreat as well as not on retreat to my observation.

As a spiritual karmic cause....well I'd say yes, all things and deaths certainly are. But to say for this or that reason...beyond our capabilities for the most part.

On a side note but to color the story in context...the local search and rescue went out on a rescue call for two hikers subject to dehydration that needed medical attention in that very same area that same day...such is commonplace, dehydration in this area.Hot that day probably in the 90's also not all that uncommon, but sitting in a cave with water supply does not dehydration make. Caves even small ones....tend to the cool not not.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Didn't do a 3 year retreat myself, so I don't know about the crazy things that can happen during this time. But since it was mentioned that they had water in their cave, I had the idea that maybe they were playing with this thing called "breatharianism", because I'm currently trying to talk my dad out of trying this himself (just recently a women not far from where I live died of dehydration because she was trying to sustain herself solely by sunlight, or whatever her idea was).

Consider in the 18 day fast only very small amounts of water is taken.

Again conjecture...but this makes sense in this circumstance.Sounds like these two were off alone and on their own pretty much so not supervised as this tradition specifies.

Last edited by ronnewmexico on Sat May 05, 2012 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

You may be right. It could be illness or perhaps they were doing a practice like nyung nas which limits food and drink intake. If foul play is ruled out- it still leaves the question why were they in the cave in the first place? And why did those who supported them by providing food, water etc. for the three months they were there not have more sense. Why did they feel they could not inform the community? Something was not right. Did the assistants not recognise the danger the couple were in? It's all very murky and unpleasant.

Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.