[BOOK SPOILERS] Margaery and Joffrey scene

Recommended Posts

I, too, love Marge on the show. Moreover, I choose to believe that the show is just affirming what I've always believed to be true -- in the books, Marge knows exactly what she's doing. Her family may play a larger role in her machinations in the books, but you don't grow up under the watchful eye of Olenna and not learn a few tricks. I'm especially interested in seeing how the show is going to portray the Moon Tea scandal.

I don't think Marge was in much physical danger during that meeting with Joff, though. Yes, she was definitely in a tense situation, but Joff mistreated whores. That's a big step down from a royally betrothed Tyrell daughter. He wasn't going to beat her, but she definitely had to play that situation correctly if she wanted to keep Joff in her corner. Joff is fickle. After Sansa witnessed his weakness during the Stark trek from Winterfell, she never had any hope.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Joffrey seemed rather awkward when he was contemplating Renly's perversion and talking about putting other deviants to death. Sort of like he was painfully aware of his own twisted nature perhaps? It was hard to read, in a "what's going on in his head right now?" kind of way. Really good acting.

After that scene my wife (who hasn't read the books) predicted that Joffrey was secretly gay.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I doubt that. I think he was perhaps asexual, or had some deep troubling problems when sex is concerned.

This. He's just not particularly interested in sex. His ability to perceive visceral pleasure is limited entirely to his ability to serve his sadism. The degree to which that involves sex is probably only limited to his ability to use sex to deliver pain. He's probably more interested in raping Sansa than he is in having sex with his completely willing fiancee.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

This. He's just not particularly interested in sex. His ability to perceive visceral pleasure is limited entirely to his ability to serve his sadism. The degree to which that involves sex is probably only limited to his ability to use sex to deliver pain. He's probably more interested in raping Sansa than he is in having sex with his completely willing fiancee.

Criminal Minds -- Westeros.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I would see this scene also as an intro to, as some fans predicted, Sansa/Loras wedding plans. Since Loras is still not in Kingsguard, and Sansa is free to marry, as Tyrion noted, and when you add Joffrey`s homophobia to that, I can easily see Margaery and QOT organizing these wedding plans to protect Loras from Joffrey.

That's a very interesting theory---I found it a bit odd that TV!Olenna didn't mention anything about a betrothal, but the writers are probably saving this scene for a future episode. Marrying Loras to Sansa in this case is not just about the Tyrells having a potential claim to the North, but it's also a way to protect Loras should Joffrey begin his extermination of "degenerates." As much as Loras dislikes the idea of being married to a woman, this possible threat on his life will make it easier for Olenna and Margaery to convince him that he has to marry Sansa.

I've just realized that there seems to be more animosity between Loras and Joffrey on the show than in the novels. We don't have the PoV for either Loras or Joff in ASoIaF, but outwardly at least, there didn't seem to be any obvious hate between the two characters. In the TV series, however, Loras called Joffrey a "monster" in Season 1, and in the Season 2 finale, Loras' body language couldn't conceal how disgusted he was at having to bend the knee to the boy-king. When I first watched the moment where Joffrey yells "No flowers!" to the tailor, I suspected that it might be a clue that he despised the Knight of Flowers for not being "manly" enough. His scene with Margaery then confirmed my belief (and it even went beyond my expectations).

Is it any wonder that TV!Loras is not part of Joff's Kingsguard? It's not just because the writers wanted to make him available for marriage; Loras on the show would never volunteer to be Joffrey's bodyguard, and Joff himself wouldn't want a "deviant" to don the white cloak.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I doubt that. I think he was perhaps asexual, or had some deep troubling problems when sex is concerned.

This. He's just not particularly interested in sex. His ability to perceive visceral pleasure is limited entirely to his ability to serve his sadism. The degree to which that involves sex is probably only limited to his ability to use sex to deliver pain. He's probably more interested in raping Sansa than he is in having sex with his completely willing fiancee.

Agree! I loved the scene for all the subtle things mentioned above, but the way he kept holding the crossbow in his lap and the way he fired it from his hip made me :lmao: at the glee he took in using his "equipment". I wondered at first where the gratuitous sex scene was in this episode. (besides Tyrion and Shae, which didn't even have any nudity.) Now I know!

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

I can't wait until Tommen becomes King and has a major crisis b/t Sir Pounce and Cersei and Margery swoops in and saves the day telling him that he can do whatever he wants b/c he is the king. You know there is going to be a scene like that.

The interest Tyrells have for Sansa isn`t as geuine as someone would think. Yes, they are nicer than Lannisters, but they also have their own agenda. Margaery may feel some sympathy for Sansa, but that hasn`t stopped all of them to use Sansa when they needed her and toss her under the bus when they didn`t. Lions and wolves may have teeth, but rose also has thorns. And that`s the deal with Tyrells.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

At least with the Lannisters you know what you're dealing with. They are ruthless and utterly without mercy. The Tyrells try to conceal their true nature behind smiles and what not. They are even more dangerous.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

It was really awkward when Margaery implied Joffrey could do it in her bum if he wanted cause he's king.

Other than that the scene was pretty good, but I don't think it was foreshadowing for the event mentioned. I think it was just Margaery revealing she knew what kind of stuff Joffrey liked to watch and seducing him by saying she would do it for him (like the scene with Ros and other girl in season 2).

You seriously misinterpreted that scene. She was speaking of what Renly wanted from her. Re-watch it.

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

At least with the Lannisters you know what you're dealing with. They are ruthless and utterly without mercy. The Tyrells try to conceal their true nature behind smiles and what not. They are even more dangerous.

I partially agree, as the Tyrells being more dangerous because you don't know what to expect from "apparently" nice people, but in the same way, I do think the Tyrells aren't as bad as the Lannisters and I do believe that the Tyrells, individually, are better people than mostly of the Lannister, specially Cersei and Joffrey: no one would expect them to treat a prisoner in the way the Lannister treated Sansa and none of the Tyrells boys would torture or beat an innocent girl, nor threaten to rape her, just because they have control over her.

And this happens because they Tyrells have been more prepared to rule and to "play" nice because that's something that benefits them: Cersei and Joffrey both confused being a leader with being plain cruel and do whatever you want and they weren't actually worried that the people was starving during the war. Yet, the doubt I have about the Tyrells is that we still don't know if their goodness towards the common people is genuine or is a facade to get their love and support, which actually hurts no one but benefit both sides: the Tyrells and the people they care about.

Now, I wouldn't trust them, though. At the end of the day, they will only worry about their own family and what it's good for them. Would the Tyrells send to murder the King's bastards because they consider them a threat? Doubt it. But they did conspire to kill a King, and we don't know wheter they did because they thought it was a bad leader who eventually would cause more bad than good and he needed to go or because they wanted a King that wouldn't pose a direct threat to Margaery. Hard to tell.