The Transportation Security Administration has opened an investigation targeting John Tyner, the Oceanside man who left Lindbergh Field under duress on Saturday morning after refusing to undertake a full body scan.

I've been following this for a few days. Anyone else? The story is interesting. The man refuses a body scan, then objects to the pat down because they may touch his groin area. He talks to several supervisors, and finally decides not to board the plane. Yet, he is detained and told that he cannot leave the airport, lest he face a civil penalty of $10,000. He is told that he must complete the screening process in order to be able to leave. He finally did leave...but whether or not he was "allowed" to is in question. Now, the TSA has announced that they will investigate this individual.

My take: I understand the need for security and realize that when I fly, I give up certain rights. It's just the way it is. I do think that we should spend more time and resources looking for terrorists instead of the tools they use (not racial profiling per se, but behavior profiling that can use race as a component..just like any criminal investigation). I really don't care about the body scanners or who sees me naked, provided the scanners are safe (which may be debatable). I think that limitations on liquids and things like taking off my shoes are inconvenient, but I understand the need.

I do, however, have a problem with with this "enhanced" pat down (for lack of a better term). Rumor has it that they are touching the genital areas of children, the elderly, etc. They are essentially groping anyone who doesn't go through the scanner. This I have a problem with, and where I think Mr. Tyner has a point. He didn't sign up to be molested. If anyone else did this to someone that was not a criminal suspect, it would be molestation. The agents have no probable cause, and as such I believe such an intrusive pat down is a Fourth Amendment violation. I see no reason why a standard pat down, explosive sniffing dog and metal detector wand won't do.

Further, the fact that the TSA can investigate Mr. Tyner outside the confines of the airport is chilling. Did anyone else know the TSA had that power? Not I. I'm sure there is more to this story, but in the absence of Tyner making threats, I fail to see how the TSA can go after him for a civil penalty. What did he do? It seems to me that what the TSA is saying is "once you come in contact with us, we own you until we choose to let you leave." Why would be be subject to completing the security check if he was not going to board the plane? I'll tell you why: Because the TSA is the new Gestapo.

One more point: I love airplanes and used to love flying. I now despise it. The airlines treat their customers like garbage. Their fees are outrageous. A $200 ticket will cost one $400 by the time one gets down with the ticketing fees, bag fees, seat selection fees, and now...carry-on bag fees (Google it).
They used to provide a fairly comfortable seat. Now, we are jammed into cramped ones. A 2.5 hours flight from Philly to Orlando once included breakfast...as in eggs, toast, whatever. Now, if you're on a long flight, they might let you buy a sandwich for $8. Security is a huge pain. It's nerve-racking for some reason. The ticketing agents and gate personnel are rude. Delays are the norm. Bottom line? I hate it. Meanwhile, the airlines continue to cry poor and receive subsidies from the government. How is it possible that the industry has gone so wrong?

/rant

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

I find it interesting that the tech is devised and marketed by Israeli companies - introduced by Chertoff btw - and yet somehow, Israeli airports are subject to far less rigorous procedures.

But yes, it is a perverts charter and they also lie about it. The authorities claim there are no print-outs possible but this is a lie as, at least in the UK, such things have surfaced elsewhere on several occasions.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

I do, however, have a problem with with this "enhanced" pat down (for lack of a better term). Rumor has it that they are touching the genital areas of children, the elderly, etc.

Rumor is correct. This is being done in the open, anyone can see it as I did last week. I was amazed these people didn't request privacy - I suppose they will, next time.

Quote:

They are essentially groping anyone who doesn't go through the scanner.

Yes. Given the TSA's intent to deploy 1800 backscatter imaging machines by 2014, can one not infer they will replace the current metal detectors? So your choice will be to get irradiated, or get felt up.

Of course, the government says the machines are perfectly safe. Don't you trust them?

Quote:

The agents have no probable cause, and as such I believe such an intrusive pat down is a Fourth Amendment violation.

I agree.

Quote:

One more point: I love airplanes and used to love flying. I now despise it.

You're not the only one.

Edit: I'm not an attorney, but can't unwanted physical contact be construed as battery? I know it's a stretch to argue it as such, but requiring one's consent to battery as a condition for air travel seems unreasonable to me.

Quote:

I do think that we should spend more time and resources looking for terrorists instead of the tools they use

Edit #2: Yes, the TSA has a fixation on "tools". If there is another terrorist attack on an airplane, does anyone think the means by which it's attempted will resemble previous attacks? We're constantly fighting the last war. The TSA is yet another government boondoggle.

I've been following this for a few days. Anyone else? The story is interesting. The man refuses a body scan, then objects to the pat down because they may touch his groin area. He talks to several supervisors, and finally decides not to board the plane. Yet, he is detained and told that he cannot leave the airport, lest he face a civil penalty of $10,000. He is told that he must complete the screening process in order to be able to leave. He finally did leave...but whether or not he was "allowed" to is in question. Now, the TSA has announced that they will investigate this individual.

My take: I understand the need for security and realize that when I fly, I give up certain rights. It's just the way it is. I do think that we should spend more time and resources looking for terrorists instead of the tools they use (not racial profiling per se, but behavior profiling that can use race as a component..just like any criminal investigation). I really don't care about the body scanners or who sees me naked, provided the scanners are safe (which may be debatable). I think that limitations on liquids and things like taking off my shoes are inconvenient, but I understand the need.

I do, however, have a problem with with this "enhanced" pat down (for lack of a better term). Rumor has it that they are touching the genital areas of children, the elderly, etc. They are essentially groping anyone who doesn't go through the scanner. This I have a problem with, and where I think Mr. Tyner has a point. He didn't sign up to be molested. If anyone else did this to someone that was not a criminal suspect, it would be molestation. The agents have no probable cause, and as such I believe such an intrusive pat down is a Fourth Amendment violation. I see no reason why a standard pat down, explosive sniffing dog and metal detector wand won't do.

Further, the fact that the TSA can investigate Mr. Tyner outside the confines of the airport is chilling. Did anyone else know the TSA had that power? Not I. I'm sure there is more to this story, but in the absence of Tyner making threats, I fail to see how the TSA can go after him for a civil penalty. What did he do? It seems to me that what the TSA is saying is "once you come in contact with us, we own you until we choose to let you leave." Why would be be subject to completing the security check if he was not going to board the plane? I'll tell you why: Because the TSA is the new Gestapo.

One more point: I love airplanes and used to love flying. I now despise it. The airlines treat their customers like garbage. Their fees are outrageous. A $200 ticket will cost one $400 by the time one gets down with the ticketing fees, bag fees, seat selection fees, and now...carry-on bag fees (Google it).
They used to provide a fairly comfortable seat. Now, we are jammed into cramped ones. A 2.5 hours flight from Philly to Orlando once included breakfast...as in eggs, toast, whatever. Now, if you're on a long flight, they might let you buy a sandwich for $8. Security is a huge pain. It's nerve-racking for some reason. The ticketing agents and gate personnel are rude. Delays are the norm. Bottom line? I hate it. Meanwhile, the airlines continue to cry poor and receive subsidies from the government. How is it possible that the industry has gone so wrong?

/rant

Do I detect a hint of disapproval re. the behavior of the authorities, from SDW of all people?

Did the Sun just rise in the West? Has Hell just frozen over?

We the public deserve an honest complete review of the facts with scientific interpretation and implications as to what really happened on 9/11. Bill Binney, Former senior technical director, NSA.

I find it interesting that the tech is devised and marketed by Israeli companies - introduced by Chertoff btw - and yet somehow, Israeli airports are subject to far less rigorous procedures.

But yes, it is a perverts charter and they also lie about it. The authorities claim there are no print-outs possible but this is a lie as, at least in the UK, such things have surfaced elsewhere on several occasions.

Wow...we really had to bring Israel into this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by john galt

Rumor is correct. This is being done in the open, anyone can see it as I did last week. I was amazed these people didn't request privacy - I suppose they will, next time.

Yes. Given the TSA's intent to deploy 1800 backscatter imaging machines by 2014, can one not infer they will replace the current metal detectors? So your choice will be to get irradiated, or get felt up.

Of course, the government says the machines are perfectly safe. Don't you trust them?

I agree.

You're not the only one.

Edit: I'm not an attorney, but can't unwanted physical contact be construed as battery? I know it's a stretch to argue it as such, but requiring one's consent to battery as a condition for air travel seems unreasonable to me.

Edit #2: Yes, the TSA has a fixation on "tools". If there is another terrorist attack on an airplane, does anyone think the means by which it's attempted will resemble previous attacks? We're constantly fighting the last war. The TSA is yet another government boondoggle.

One has to wonder about the battery angle. I think that they'd argue that you surrendered certain rights by choosing to fly. No one is made to fly, or so they would argue...and have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammi jo

Do I detect a hint of disapproval re. the behavior of the authorities, from SDW of all people?

Did the Sun just rise in the West? Has Hell just frozen over?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ1970

You know I could have gone to work for the TSA...

...but they found out I didn't like humiliating grandmothers and little children.

I know your perception of me differs, but I tend not to like authority in general, particularly when that authority is abused like this. I don't really care about the scanners, or taking off my shoes, or what have you. It's annoying, but I'd rather be secure when in Air Travel Land. I still think our entire idea of preventing terrorism is wrong though. We need to be looking for the people that engage in acts of terrorism. Some of it is race, some of it is behavior. There are a lot of very smart people trained to do exactly this kind of thing. Of course, few of those people are in the TSA.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

We should include race as a PART of our efforts to stop terrorists. This means that "western looking" young Arab men should receive extra attention. It should not be the sole or even primary factor, but it should be a factor. Why? Because they have a similar appearance as those who attacked us. If I robbed a convenience store, you can bet that the police would be looking for a white male, 6'2" tall with brown hair and blue eyes. They sure as hell wouldn't be looking for a 90 year old grandma with an artificial hip, or a 5'5" black guy who was balding. Yet, that is exactly what we're doing with airport security right now. In fact, it's worse. We're going out of our way NOT to look for people that have a similar appearance to the terrorists that struck us 9 years ago.

Anyone who doesn't agree with this is living in a uber-politically correct fantasy land. Period.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Why? Because they have a similar appearance as those who attacked us. If I robbed a convenience store, you can bet that the police would be looking for a white male, 6'2" tall with brown hair and blue eyes. They sure as hell wouldn't be looking for a 90 year old grandma with an artificial hip, or a 5'5" black guy who was balding. Yet, that is exactly what we're doing with airport security right now. In fact, it's worse. We're going out of our way NOT to look for people that have a similar appearance to the terrorists that struck us 9 years ago.

This is very interesting - as a glimpse into the mindset of those who have fully bought into the 'terrorists will get you' meme it speaks volumes and is far more eloquent than any opponent could be.

What we are being asked to believe - and what many, like SDW, DO believe is essentially this:

1) We are under threat from a very 'Sophisticated Organized Entity Dedicated To Our Destruction'

One has to wonder about the battery angle. I think that they'd argue that you surrendered certain rights by choosing to fly. No one is made to fly, or so they would argue...and have.

Are there informational notices posted to that effect, prior to consenting to the groping (e.g. "your Constitutional rights end beyond this point")? If not, why would that individual in Philadelphia be detained upon a simple refusal to consent?

Are there informational notices posted to that effect, prior to consenting to the groping (e.g. "your Constitutional rights end beyond this point")? If not, why would that individual in Philadelphia be detained upon a simple refusal to consent?

Two different arguments there. There is a 4th Amendment concern, which I think is valid. Your point above adds to that. Then, there is the "sexual molestation/assault" concern. From a criminal standpoint, I think that latter wouldn't hold up.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Two different arguments there. There is a 4th Amendment concern, which I think is valid. Your point above adds to that. Then, there is the "sexual molestation/assault" concern. From a criminal standpoint, I think that latter wouldn't hold up.

What happened to the free market..??? you guys are all socialists, WTF.

No one forces you to fly on commercial airlines or use public airports. This is America remember, free enterprise and all this crap...?
Get your own plane and fly it if you don't want to go through security or admit you are a socialist looser.
Flying with Commercial "public" airlines comes with body searches, get over it or find Bin Laden or become CEO of JP MOrgan or shut t f up. Socialist scum.

Two different arguments there. There is a 4th Amendment concern, which I think is valid. Your point above adds to that. Then, there is the "sexual molestation/assault" concern. From a criminal standpoint, I think that latter wouldn't hold up.

Yes, I know, but I recall from some distant memory that unwanted touching can be legally construed as battery. I am quite certain that physical injury is not a prerequisite for that definition. I'd need more than an amateur attorney to confirm that. Besides, it's the government, by definition it can't act with criminal intent

I don't know if the extent of the proposed molestation is explained to the victim before, as in "I am now going to feel your genitals, breasts, and all other bits considered hazardous to national security Ma'am." This would bear (bare?) on the interpretation of battery. If consent is granted, such an accusation is not likely to be justified.

If I were to say those exact words to a woman in a bar though, I'm pretty sure just saying that to her could be construed as assault.

The WTF belongs to WTF are you talking about? How does this have anything whatsoever to do with the free market?!

Oh really and you can't fly on private planes... you can choose to be a looser and fly from public, socialist airports or you can choose a private plane from a private airport.
This is not free market?
There are 100s of private airlines which will give you different deals like $ 24,000 from Seattle to NY. no body search you drive up to the plane set you own schedule, ja capiche compadre?

Oh really and you can't fly on private planes... you can choose to be a looser and fly from public, socialist airports or you can choose a private plane from a private airport.
This is not free market?
There are 100s of private airlines which will give you different deals like $ 24,000 from Seattle to NY. no body search you drive up to the plane set you own schedule, ja capiche compadre?

I see where your confusion lies. The question is whether you do or not. I'm guessing not.

Air travel is far from a free market from government subsidies to government owned and operated airports to to government control of the airspace and government licensing and control of all airplanes and all pilots. government gestapo security, etc.

I see where your confusion lies. The question is whether you do or not. I'm guessing not.

Air travel is far from a free market from government subsidies to government owned and operated airports to to government control of the airspace and government licensing and control of all airplanes and all pilots. government gestapo security, etc.

You are not getting this at all.
I know or at least I hope that all pilots are licensed by the government and so are airlines. But I still can avoid flying without any search by using my own plane or by chartering one. I can do so on the free market and circumvent the TSA.
OR I am a looser and I have to use government, socialist facilities, ja boy?
You know the stuff the GOP wants to completely eliminate.

WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM?
Get your own plane or s t f u about the TSA. If I sit on a plane with you I want them to look up your ass, twice.

But I still can avoid flying without any search by using my own plane or by chartering one. I can do so on the free market and circumvent the TSA.

Yes. We all know that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wormhole

OR I am a looser and I have to use government, socialist facilities, ja boy?
You know the stuff the GOP wants to completely eliminate.

It is quite true that because of many anti-freedom actions all of us are often left with fewer (sometimes no) choices or quite poor choices as you have pointed out. This is the dilemma of the world we live in. It's why I try to advocate for more freedom. If you choose to advocate less freedom for people, I guess that's your choice too. But understand that it's hardly the moral high ground to advocate for actions and policies which limit or reduce freedom and choices and then smugly stand there and declare that "take or leave it" are fine choices.

I am fully aware of the limited choices that anti-freedom people (perhaps like yourself) have left me with. I choose to continue speaking out against them and trying to make the best choices possible in the limited framework people who seem to hate freedom have allowed.

Air travel is far from a free market from government subsidies to government owned and operated airports to to government control of the airspace and government licensing and control of all airplanes and all pilots. government gestapo security, etc.

Correct. However, it may interest you to know the TSA does not screen private (that is, non-scheduled service) aircraft, their pilots, their passengers, or their cargo. They can fly into thousands of airports no airline serves, some of them publicly owned, others privately owned. Their owners and operators are responsible for maintaining their own security in all the areas in which they operate, at all times. Pilots and passengers can fly armed if they're so inclined. They're free to discriminate any way they deem appropriate. They can refuse boarding to whomever they want for any reason, or no reason at all. It's the free market at work. If it didn't work, they'd be gone. There are many, many more such aircraft in service than all of the airlines have, combined.

I may have already posted this in a previous thread re. T."S."A., but here's an experience I had at LAX a few years ago, very similar to one shared by thousands of other passengers. I wrote this up (in more detail) shortly it happened.

*

TSA, the agency responsible for "security" in airports has been faced with a barrage of complaints since its inception post 9/11: laptops of course are a prime target for thieves working for TSA/DHS to steal. I had an incident recently at baggage claim; flying back into LAX, my suitcase never appeared on the carousel..... well, that's not quite accurate.... it actually did, but unrecognizable because it was bound with numerous bands of grey duct-tape.

I did, at one point, think to myself, "someone's going to be really pissed" when they find that!. I waited and waited until the wrecked suitcase was the last sad-looking item making endless loops on the otherwise deserted conveyor, and I was the sole passenger still waiting. I was thinking about to making a 'lost bag' claim with the airline, when I noticed a brightly colored sticker peeking out from under the duct-tape on this one remaining suitcase, or rather, what was left of it, causing me to take a closer look.

Suddenly the awful truth dawned: this was my suitcase! Pulling the case off the carousel, and removing the layers of duct-tape, I discovered it was pretty much destroyed. This was a supposedly unbreakable Samsonite suitcase, and hadn't been locked, of course! This case was sturdy enough to have withstood an airplane wreck, but proved no match for vandalism by Department of Homeland Security bozos. To add insult to injury, several items were missing from inside, including a box of my favorite CDs I travel with, and even some underwear. There was also a man's leather shoe in amongst my belongings. I was visualizing all kinds of scenes at the TSA in inspection area, where officials pulled items of value out of cases and divvied up the booty, after which they stuffed the unwanted stuff back into cases in seemingly random fashion.

By now angry (read furious and feeling violated), I marched to the airline's lost baggage desk and in a testy fashion (read "fvcking livid"), I described what had happened. The person behind the counter listened briefly, then put her hand up to signal me to stop talking; she then went to great lengths to dissuade me from marching into the LAX TSA office and giving some faceless bureaucrat a piece of my mind: she explained that such a course of action (a) would definitely not bring back the stolen items, (b) they might even call the airport police and have me arrested (for what, I wasn't quite sure, but I didn't fancy a night in jail for registering a complaint about theft and vandalism of my property), and (c) I could possibly find myself in the future unable to fly without a law enforcement "escort", or even get placed on a "no fly", or terrorist watch list.

I was informed that my only choice was to file a complaint with TSA through their official channels, but there was no guarantee of a response, or refund for the missing items and property damage. Well, I took that advice, and what kind of a response did I get? Zero, as expected.

This episode still rankles. Department of Homeland "Security" assholes.

We the public deserve an honest complete review of the facts with scientific interpretation and implications as to what really happened on 9/11. Bill Binney, Former senior technical director, NSA.