Very possible John, but she would be heading in the wrong direction if she went up stairs to church or whatever was there previously . Also says stairs heading to market and home. There probably has been a lot of building completed since then, which means there could have been stairs somewhere and in fact, if you look on the map there are disused steps to the side of the minimarket but the direction would be wrong for home and the witnesses who saw her heading in direction of market, church and home. The witnesses must have to been able to see the church and market. There is a space at the side of the mini market, big enough for a market (where the old stairs unused are) but I think we just have to forget the stairs for now, which are obviously no longer there. Also noticed when in map view that it shows a road or walkway going down the side of the minimarket. complicated indeed, but it will sort itself out eventually, fingers crossed!

I think there are too many threads to this subject now. We are all over the place, but I will have to post the same in each. The mini market is across the road from Celia only celias step and the kerb to go up to get there and she would have to cross to have a path or use the steps. Who mentioned the church ? its not in any statements

OK Carana Times:

TimelineTimes Left home around 8 h pm ???Arrived at Celia around 8h 20pm / 8h 30pmAfter shopping left Celia around 8h.30Pm / 8h.35pm Last time Seen, in proximity to market going to stairs that led to her home 8h.30PM / 8h 40pm Earliest possible to get home 8.35pm to 8.40(I think these are the same witnesses who saw her approaching market So must be near market/steps and opp side of road)

Leandro and pal in Celias at around 9 .00PM according to Celia Joa leaves the house 9.10/9.15Joao arrives at Celias at about 9. 20PM according to celia ladyThey all go home immediately 9. 25pm according to Leandro

Leona and Joao go to Celia around 10. 30PM according to celia leaving at approx 11.pm to go home and according to Celias

John goes home to sit with babiesLeandro and mate go to search approx 10.00 pm Leonora joins them 11 pm ishCelia goes to their home to see if joana is back 12mnLeonor, Leandro and pal are just returning 12 mn and decide to go search some more with Celia at 12.30 ishLeonor and Joao’s brother, is around as well… At Celia, church where Leonor saw GNR,cockle feast and their home I believeLeonor and johns brother sees them all around 11.30Celia helps search and phones police approx 12.30/40Leonora informs GNR near the church. who tells her to report it tomorrow

==============================================If Joana got home earliest 8.35 the evil deed would be done 9.15 latest, this includes getting cleaned and changed before Joao left for celias 9.15 latest. Or Joana got home 8.40/5 and still would be 9.15 latestunless Carlos’s times were correct and Celia’s and witnesses were wrong of course as there was a 30 min difference

30 to 35 mins to argue with the child, kill her, decide what to do, and argue with each other, conceal the body, clean the walls and floors and get washed and changed , not to mention laundry and clothing concealment. Nah !Even an extra 30 mins wouldn’t convince me And when the men got back from Celia at 9.25/35 , Leandro and Carlos noticed nothing different about the house clean wise, which would have, freshly washed floors, surely?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------8.35/8.40 to 8.40/8.45 trying to pull the child back and argue8.40/8.45 to 8.50/8.55 hitting the child until she fell lifeless8.50/8.55 to 9.00/9.05 Argue with each other and decide what to do9.00/9.05 to 9.10/9.15 Conceal Body9.10/9.15 to 9.15/9.20 Washed and changedThese are the shortest times that I believe possibleNow Joao has to leave at 9.15 the latest, to be at celia for 9.20 Leonor is left to wash, change, clean the walls, the floors and conceal bloody laundry before the men return at 9.30 ?????????????

When was all the really macabre stuff suppose to happen ??????????????????

OK I have checked back.....................According to 2006 appeal it was when Joao went back to the house at 9.30 ish,after waylaying Leandro and Carlos who then supposedly had gone searching ???????

but I believe (according to statements) that they all went home first and then they went with Leonor, searching for Joana This cant be right !!!

Apparently she was seen near the church, but the only reference to that siting is in a newspaper. No witness statements that I have seenIf she didn't go past the church, but took a back shortcut by the steps by the market and over fields, it would bring her out by some steps going down the back, to her house. I must add that although new houses were being built in that area in 2010 , I doubt there was anything but wasteland and not a safe route for a youngster in 2004. It knocks about 100 meters off the trip home.

Leandro reckoned he and MM got to the Café at around 9pm, MM reckoned it was around 9:30/10 pm. Anyway, João went to find them and both Leandro and MM went back home. It's not clear if João went back as well at that point, as it just says "they went back home", although it seems so as Leandro suggested that Leonor check with neighbours (he says he doesn't know if she did or not), while he and MM went off to the fair area to check there (seemingly split up to check different parts), and João stayed at home with the kids. According to MM, the two of them then went back home again and set off again with Leonor. It was when they were about to go back home yet again, that the Café lady asked if they'd phoned the police (which they hadn't) and so she did.

Both of them state that they didn't notice anything strange when they went home, and MM adds that he didn't notice that anything had been cleaned.

According to one of the GNR reports, the officer talked to Leonor, Leandro and a third person (which I assume to be MM).

This is the GNR chappy. He talked to them near the church and Leonor apparently explained that she'd sent Joana on an errand to the Café and that the last time she was seen was also near the church, whereas the witness actually said near the market, but they are presumably both in the same area.

Yes, I think when it was said "near the church" it was just to give an idea of the locality. Celia lady said 9pm Carlos said 9.30, but according to the Appeal (giving details of the court case) Joao went to the café to delay Leandro who was due back home at 9.30 pm, so probably Celia lady was correct.

Yes, I think when it was said "near the church" it was just to give an idea of the locality. Celia lady said 9pm Carlos said 9.30, but according to the Appeal (giving details of the court case) Joao went to the café to delay Leandro who was due back home at 9.30 pm, so probably Celia lady was correct.

I'm not sure that he went to delay them, and I haven't seen anything stating at what time Leandro was actually expected back, although I might not be looking in the right place.

Celia lady had said Joana was there around 8:20/8:30. The two guys turned up around 1/2 hour later, so around 9 pm. João turned up around 20 mins after that, so that would put it at around 9:20 ish. Leonor turned up over an hour after they left to ask about Joana. She says something odd - that João was with her, but he'd stayed outside. The other two guys say that he stayed home.

I'm not sure that he went to delay them, and I haven't seen anything stating at what time Leandro was actually expected back, although I might not be looking in the right place.

Celia lady had said Joana was there around 8:20/8:30. The two guys turned up around 1/2 hour later, so around 9 pm. João turned up around 20 mins after that, so that would put it at around 9:20 ish. Leonor turned up over an hour after they left to ask about Joana. She says something odd - that João was with her, but he'd stayed outside. The other two guys say that he stayed home.

16- That the defendant John has time to have a beer with the Leandro and Carlos, in "Pastries ... ", to delay the return of them to home; = as the appeal 2006

The prosecuting was based on Joao going over to the café to delay the return home, which was expected around 9.30pm, while Leonor cleaned up after killing the child . However in the 2006 appeal it said that they went straight away to search, so a bit of a contradiction ,somewhere there, or I missed the plot

b. witnessed Leonor and her brother having sex on the living-room sofa (when they both knew that any other occupant could have walked in at any moment)

c. Leonor whacked her.. that traces of her on walls or anything else were found

d. there was evidence of cleaning when Leandro and MM came home

e. they hadn't tried to check with relatives / neighbours if she might have been with them

f. Leonor had mistreated Joana

g. she had been chopped up and stuffed into a small freezer which no other occupant of the house would have noticed

h. that a spot of unidentifiable human blood on the back of a small freezer drawer, which may or may not have been recent, corroborates that there had been an attempt to stuff her in it when anyone could have entered the house at any time.

Attempting to stuff her in it would have required taking out all the drawers and their contents. I'm not aware that anyone noticed empty freezer drawers, nor noticed the absence of food that may have disappeared to make room.

This is the GNR chappy. He talked to them near the church and Leonor apparently explained that she'd sent Joana on an errand to the Café and that the last time she was seen was also near the church, whereas the witness actually said near the market, but they are presumably both in the same area.

A PT friend tells me that Figueira is not big enough to have a market, so I am wondering:

1) if there was one day a week when, maybe a solitary fish van came ... or a meat van came .... and parked on the sizeable plaza where the pretty modern Figueira church stands.? And that is called the market?or, 2) As it was a festival day, was there a special once a year market on the church plaza?

I stayed in a small place in France where the church car park had an occasional van parked selling, I think, meat.

I think you are right, Carana. That there is no real market in Figueira

A PT friend tells me that Figueira is not big enough to have a market, so I am wondering:

1) if there was one day a week when, maybe a solitary fish van came ... or a meat van came .... and parked on the sizeable plaza where the pretty modern Figueira church stands.? And that is called the market?or, 2) As it was a festival day, was there a special once a year market on the church plaza?

I stayed in a small place in France where the church car park had an occasional van parked selling, I think, meat.

I think you are right, Carana. That there is no real market in Figueira

There may well be a market place near the church. Or the reference is to a small grocery shop nearby. I don't have a problem with whatever it meant... my only question concerned where was she actually seen for the last time.