Single target heal bombs? This thing called eternal flame. It even comes with a bubble and a HoT to make damn sure your target stays alive afterwards.

Again, LoD is worse than EF (and the range of LoD is 30 yards which makes it bad in the situations where it should be good), the only good smart heal we have is holy prism and again we have something that is better on a lot of the fights.

Single target heal bombs? I hope you realize that 3/5 of the healing from EF comes from the HoT and not the instant heal. On top of that EF has an artificial cooldown.

Again I dont understand what you mean by insanely strong tank healing. We have by far the slowest heals, they heal for the least healing (but provides a shield on top) we are good for raid healing with beacon on a tank to HELP with tank healing. We are not good EXCLUSIVE tank healers. Are you really saying that FoL is instant or am I reading that wrong? Because it is not unless you take a god awful talent.

---------- Post added 2013-04-25 at 05:42 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Treseme

It's a 5-6% throughput nerf (the Mastery change).

The change to the tier bonus is long overdue, generating 33% more HP is beyond stupid. Besides, in t15/t16 gear you'll be able to generate more HP through HR use anyway (higher spirit). The change, really, is negligible. The tier 16 bonuses will most likely be stupidly insane anyway: they always are. A 5-6% throughput nerf is not damaging at all, and it's good Blizzard is going to tackle a definite problem before it manifests itself too much: it's nice to see them being proactive for once, rather than reactive.

Yes that is correct but what about the ~5% nerf that will be T14->T15 (actually its 6-7% as mastery scales with it). We are looking at a 10-13% nerf in total with both T14 and the mastery change.

Honestly I dont give a shit about mastery itself for all I care they could make it just do extra healing instead of shields on top of the healing but when you take away so much of our healing we are going to hurt, a lot.

So maybe T16 is going to fix all our problems by being stupid overpowered but then we are going to be awful from 5.3 to mid 5.4 where we get our 4 set. How does that make any sence at all?

Yes that is correct but what about the ~5% nerf that will be T14->T15 (actually its 6-7% as mastery scales with it). We are looking at a 10-13% nerf in total with both T14 and the mastery change.

Yeah, it is a little scary to consider the effect of both changes coming at once. I suppose *some* of that may be countered by increased ilvls, but I would guess that will be a very minor increase in comparison to the losses.

How does that make any sence at all?

I'm still holding out hope that they make Holy Shock a 5sec base CD, but I don't know how realistic that hope is. Can't say I'm intrigued by the potential "rotation" that we will basically be forced into with the currently proposed changes (HR>HR>HS>LoD/EF)

The 4pc nerf doesn't really affect me as I never had it in the 1st place. I've been playing around with a crit build, and honestly like it; though that could be due to mastery still playing a large role. I'm not certain I like the idea of going back to a haste build. Spells moving further away from mana neutral scares me.

The 4pc nerf doesn't really affect me as I never had it in the 1st place. I've been playing around with a crit build, and honestly like it; though that could be due to mastery still playing a large role. I'm not certain I like the idea of going back to a haste build. Spells moving further away from mana neutral scares me.

To Mods: Thank you

I feel that although Haste is a natural choice, we won't be able to sustain it compared to a Mastery or Crit build unless RPPM can play a big enough part

The 4pc nerf doesn't really affect me as I never had it in the 1st place. I've been playing around with a crit build, and honestly like it; though that could be due to mastery still playing a large role. I'm not certain I like the idea of going back to a haste build. Spells moving further away from mana neutral scares me.

To Mods: Thank you

Do you have the sims or numbers to give proof that crit is "superior". Due to RNG being RNG, relying on getting a crit to save lives doesn't seem like a good idea.

Originally Posted by Xs

I feel that although Haste is a natural choice, we won't be able to sustain it compared to a Mastery or Crit build unless RPPM can play a big enough part

I don't believe this nerf to our mastery will make us switch back to haste. Our mana pool is still a fixed amount and Haste will just make us burn through it faster. We will most likely still be gemming for mastery/spirit or int/spirit or straight spirit depending on your play style. Just because we are taking a decent hit to mastery doesn't make it inferior. It is still free healing and still will be a good chunk of our healing.

Do you have the sims or numbers to give proof that crit is "superior". Due to RNG being RNG, relying on getting a crit to save lives doesn't seem like a good idea.

If crits were just crits, I'd agree. But I still think mastery will be better (I've been slow on my theorycrafting spreadsheet but I should have a better answer). Regardless as I mentioned I did heal Tsulong with a crit-based build in T14, and it was competing with the other healers even in P1.

Do you have the sims or numbers to give proof that crit is "superior". Due to RNG being RNG, relying on getting a crit to save lives doesn't seem like a good idea.

Mr. Robot:
"PvE: Highest Output
Spirit > Crit > Mastery > Haste
This build will give you the highest average output. Many healers don't like Crit, but it is mathematically superior for Holy Paladin output. Mr. Robot has shown that you don't really need to worry about Crit adding more randomness to your play - raids are not tuned tightly enough for that to be a deciding factor."

The reason I put quotations on superior, is because it's difficult enough to trust sims, and Mr. Robot doesn't have a perfect track record (but who does?).

I can say that in a 10m raid setting, I like the feel of crit>mastery. I'm floating somewhere around 20% crit/ 20% mastery(515ilvl). Crit leads to more overheal, but that still has great synergy with mastery. I'd post my armory/logs, and let you dissect them, but I'm still unable to post links, and I doubt it'd be of much use since nothing I'm doing is groundbreaking; but nonetheless, my toon's name is Kizally, Area-52, Chain Reaction.

I'm new to holy pally healing, just switched to it when our 10 group recruited a new disc priest (which i used to be). I'm really interested in this idea that crit could be equal or greater to the other secondary stats, as it isn't something I've encountered before in talking about holy pallies. Can it compete with the master>haste>crit that I've seen more often?

I'm new to holy pally healing, just switched to it when our 10 group recruited a new disc priest (which i used to be). I'm really interested in this idea that crit could be equal or greater to the other secondary stats, as it isn't something I've encountered before in talking about holy pallies. Can it compete with the master>haste>crit that I've seen more often?

They're all fairly well balanced for us

Mastery's bonus is that it's free and gives effective health (which can in itself be a reason to take it above the 'free' bonus)
Haste's bonus is its reliable and potentially gives the best throughput, at the cost of higher mana usage
Crit gives a degree of haste though Infusion of Light and gives us some interesting results, if you're in a raid group where people won't die from a bad RNG spree it can give some very favourable throughput without the mana hit that pure Haste gives

I have yet to find any solid reasoning or supporting arguments for mastery vs. haste vs. crit. If you've found something I haven't, please share

The thousands of other paladins doing more healing than you would suggest otherwise. If crit were the best, we would see the majority of Paladins use it. They don't, do you assume they are all wrong and you are right?

The thousands of other paladins doing more healing than you would suggest otherwise. If crit were the best, we would see the majority of Paladins use it. They don't, do you assume they are all wrong and you are right?

I never said that crit is better than mastery. I said that personally, I prefer it, and that some sims suggest it is has a higher throughput than mastery. I was questioning stat weights (crit vs haste vs mastery) post 5.3, not current.

On an unrelated note, while this doesn't make people wrong; a large majority of players tend to do little research, or just try to mirror stat weights of renowned players. I'm not going to drag this thread off-topic like it has been done for the last several pages.

Has anyone done any theory crafting, or napkin math yet, or is it still too soon for anything solid?

Crit is about equal to intellect for throughput, so if Mastery < Intellect in 5.3, you'll probably find Mastery < Crit in 5.3 too.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Saying Crit won't be as bad assumes Crit is bad for Holy Paladins, which is wrong. Crit is one of our best stats(insanely better then haste), but its value to us is just double healing(which includes double Illuminated healing so mastery being made worse makes crit worse). Crit's value to Monks for example is double healing and mana regeneration,which allows them to shift a massive amount of spirit into Crit.

On an unrelated note, while this doesn't make people wrong; a large majority of players tend to do little research, or just try to mirror stat weights of renowned players. I'm not going to drag this thread off-topic like it has been done for the last several pages.

Has anyone done any theory crafting, or napkin math yet, or is it still too soon for anything solid?

The mastery change changes nothing in our stat values. Ideas like going haste in particular are going to see ~70k hps to ~120k for the other healers.

Has anyone done any theory crafting, or napkin math yet, or is it still too soon for anything solid?

I attempted some quick napkin math earlier in the thread, which may have been close to accurate or ... completely wrong. No one commented, so I'm still going with it for my personal preference. Sticking with Mastery in 5.3 at least until spirit regen hits some impossible plateau beyond which the 13% throughput advantage haste will have is worth the mana crunch that comes with it.

Crit still looks break-even with mastery for throughput from what I can tell (I'm probably wrong as usual though) -- certainly not "insanely better than haste" -- before even accounting for its RNG issues and all of the overhealing.

I attempted some quick napkin math earlier in the thread, which may have been close to accurate or ... completely wrong. No one commented, so I'm still going with it for my personal preference. Sticking with Mastery in 5.3 at least until spirit regen hits some impossible plateau beyond which the 13% throughput advantage haste will have is worth the mana crunch that comes with it.

Crit still looks break-even with mastery for throughput from what I can tell (I'm probably wrong as usual though) -- certainly not "insanely better than haste" -- before even accounting for its RNG issues and all of the overhealing.

The only math I've seen you do earlier in the thread was discussing how it will be easier to get 1% haste(425 rating) instead of 1% mastery(480 rating) or 1% crit(600 rating) next patch. Taking 9000 rating as shifting, you could get ~21% haste or 18.75% mastery or 15% crit. This is correct.

The reason crit is insanely better then haste is that for starters crit actually works on all our spells. The fact that haste also drains our mana faster is the least concern for the stat.

Maybe I'm drawing too much from someone's words (it is possible), but judging from recent tweets from Ghostcrawler I think in 5.4 Paladins may see a nerf to EF or a buff to SS to make SS more attractive. The tweets are:

Greg Street [email protected] 19h
@Dave00577157 Mastery was too strong regardless, but longer-term we don't want EF to be the only choice for Holy.

Greg Street [email protected] 18h
@Ady_Mx Eternal Flame has like 90%+ use for Holy. That means they effectively lose a talent choice. If some used SS then it would be fine.

Greg Street [email protected] 13h
@blue_mrj LoD just has to beat WoG, which it does. Eternal Flame is the problem. It lets Holy become a Resto druid and a Disc priest.

Greg Street [email protected] 18h
@Dave00577157 We buffed EF just before release and have regretted it ever since.

Not sure what you want to make of that, but I would be wary.

As to the crit thing, yes crit is more favourable for Monks due to how it interacts with Mana Tea (this is getting nerfed in 5.4, guaranteed) but overall crit and intellect are equal in throughput. Crit normally raises the base HPS of all your 'normal' skills by 2-5%~ but it cuts your healing CD abilities by 10-20%. Taking Monks as an example you can expect (from switching 10x 160 int gems to 10x 320 crit gems) a 1k~ hps boost Uplift, Renewing Mists, Soothing Mists, but the price you pay is that Life Cocoon is a lot less powerful and the same with Revival. I can only imagine the same thing occurs for Paladins with their Light's Hammer, Holy Radiance et al.