Post by howitis on Nov 22, 2017 17:08:59 GMT -5

"A THIRD victim has come forward revealing she was also raped as a child by a sex monster controversially spared jail because of his high cholesterol and sleeping problems.

The woman said she was sexually assaulted by the Dubbo offender — who can only be identified as TM because of court suppression orders — over a three-year period starting when she was 12 years old in 1987.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal the Director of Public Prosecutions will attempt to lift the suppression on the case in court on Tuesday, meaning TM and victims who want to speak out will be able to be identified for the first time.

The latest victim said TM, who would have been about 25 when the abuse started, had been a family friend and took her to his own house to molest her when he was meant to be driving her to guitar lessons. She said the abuse started with “kissing and cuddling” and escalated to rape.

“Still till this day I’m shattered by it,” she said. She had considered going to police but was worried about the effect a court case would have on her.

“I’m horrified he did this to other girls but hasn’t been given jail time,” she said. “It brings up so much pain and hurt.”

Earlier this week The Daily Telegraph revealed that 55-year-old TM had been given a suspended sentence despite pleading guilty to 10 counts of child sex abuse that occurred on two young girls from his church from 1981-87.

Judge John North granted “a discount” for a variety of reasons including TM’s health and that he was “sexually inexperienced” because of his conservative upbringing and hadn’t taken sexual education classes in school."

Post by snow on Nov 22, 2017 18:50:14 GMT -5

Not handing down a sentence which anywhere near fitted the crime, has done more good than was realised. Because of him this case is now world wide news - in newspapers and has been discussed on John Laws talkback radio. People are wanting to know why the 'church' allowed TM to keep attending and being around young children - even though none of them know which church it is. When the no-naming ban is lifted, the 'name' of the church will come out in the open. The problem is no one will know who they are talking about even if they know some of the friends because no one can agree on a name. I hate to say this about my own church but I am hoping the authorities will swoop in and drag everything out which has been swept under the carpet for so long and the workers (and the friends) will be forced to be open and acknowledge everything that has happened in the past.

Unlike Howitis, who doesn't think TM is a risk to anyone anymore except himself, I disagree. Anyone who has been or has the tendencies to be, a paedophile and/or rapist will always have those tendencies and given the opportunity will act on them.

I know there are paedophiles in every church, every organisation and every walk of life but I have worked with, lived with and mixed with a large variety of 'outsiders'. I know more outsiders than I do 'Friends" and yet I know more paedophiles amongst the 'Friends and workers' than I do amongst outsiders. The ratios are horrifying. 'Outsiders' are more willing to talk about this sort of thing even if it is in their own family, so if it did happen you would be more likely to know about it.

Is he actually a pedophile? Not all csa is the work of a pedophile. If he has been tested and diagnosed as a pedophile, then he will likely offend again. They can't seem to stop on their own. But if he isn't, there might be no more danger. No one can know for sure, but in any case, he should have done jail time, a lot of it, and he should have had counselling if he is not a pedophile. To date, we don't have data that says counselling of a pedophile does any good. Chemical castration is usually the method used if they do get out of jail, and definitely they have orders to stay away from children. In my country they wouldn't be protected and would be on a sexual offenders list that everyone has access too. We also have a law in place that if a sexual predator gets released into the community where you live, the police have to make the residents aware of that. Harder to hide in plain sight but not impossible of course.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on Nov 22, 2017 19:06:32 GMT -5

@review005 what did you think of my suggestion of a sister worker or women from the friends that could be trained as a first contact, a go to person for young children, where they can report to someone with less stress and with the assurance that they know how to deal with this without leading the child. Or do you already have that in place? Also a brother worker or men from the friends if the child happens to be male. Do you think that would be something that might help?

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on Nov 22, 2017 19:37:14 GMT -5

@review005 what did you think of my suggestion of a sister worker or women from the friends that could be trained as a first contact, a go to person for young children, where they can report to someone with less stress and with the assurance that they know how to deal with this without leading the child. Or do you already have that in place? Also a brother worker or men from the friends if the child happens to be male. Do you think that would be something that might help?

Yes but within the protocol that law enforcement officers state of the importance of uncontaminated evidence. Secondly the first contact needs to some that the alleged victim would feel free to bring the very painful and private matter up with. I KNOW of those who would have never spoken to someone unknown and 'officially appointed' They spoke to someone they knew well, trusted and could open up to.

The workers understand that this is a matter for the police to handle and guide and encourage the alleged victim to do that. Also there are councillors and therapists who are professionally trained and equipped in the field to refer victims to as is appropriate.

I know of a case where it was several years after the advice being given before the victim did that. For those of us who have not been sexually abused as a child we can on 'scratch around on the surface' in understanding the pain, trauma, grief, shame and cocktail of other emotions involved. I have deep feeling and care for those who have suffered this.

Yes I agree, they will go to someone they trust and/or feel comfortable with. I also agree that anyone appointed would need training because of the real problem of saying something that can cause false memories or lead the child. That's happened enough with usually not great outcomes. It is a matter for the police at all times, but it's not usually the police the child first reports to. So I just thought maybe a few trained friends of both genders to go along with the trained ministry might be an asset. If it was known among the friends who they could go to they might feel comfortable doing that.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 22, 2017 19:44:39 GMT -5

@review005 what did you think of my suggestion of a sister worker or women from the friends that could be trained as a first contact, a go to person for young children, where they can report to someone with less stress and with the assurance that they know how to deal with this without leading the child. Or do you already have that in place? Also a brother worker or men from the friends if the child happens to be male. Do you think that would be something that might help?

Yes but within the protocol that law enforcement officers state of the importance of uncontaminated evidence. Secondly the first contact needs to some that the alleged victim would feel free to bring the very painful and private matter up with. I KNOW of those who would have never spoken to someone unknown and 'officially appointed' They spoke to someone they knew well, trusted and could open up to.

The workers understand that this is a matter for the police to handle and guide and encourage the alleged victim to do that. Also there are councillors and therapists who are professionally trained and equipped in the field to refer victims to as is appropriate.

I know of a case where it was several years after the advice being given before the victim did that. For those of us who have not been sexually abused as a child we can on 'scratch around on the surface' in understanding the pain, trauma, grief, shame and cocktail of other emotions involved. I have deep feeling and care for those who have suffered this.

@review005 is correct, children will go to someone they know and trust. The purpose of an independent person such as snow is recommending is to act as an advocate for the child and their own support person if needed.

The scenario looks something like this:

Church has a policy on dealing with CSA. Church also appoints independent Advocate for CSA victims.

Childis a victim of CSA. Child tries to inform Friend A. Friend A doesn't know what to do. Friend A informs Worker A because a worker is involved, or an elder, or someone else within the church. Worker A should then a) insist that the police are informed; b) see what support Child and Friend A need pastorally; c) look at enacting church disciplinary measures against Abuser. Advocate is not involved in this scenario, unless Child and Friend A want someone alongside them as the process is commenced of reporting, etc.

In the same scenario, a Worker B might tell Child and Friend A to keep quiet, and not go to the police. Worker B might ignore allegations. Worker A then does nothing because they are subordinate to Worker B. Child and Friend A then seek assistance from Advocate. Advocate is better equipped to support the Child and Friend A in going to the police, and also need to relay that Worker B has attempted to prevent reporting.

The Advocate role is very important. It allows independent accountability for the ministry where Worker B has done the wrong thing, and other workers don't even know. It also gives the victim and their family support within their own church community. This whole process is extremely traumatic, without the added burden of being ostracized from your own family or spiritual community, which has been known to happen.

Appointing an Advocate is an important symbolic (and practical) step of publicly declaring to the church that the victim is not at fault, and abusers will be not protected.

Post by snow on Nov 22, 2017 20:10:39 GMT -5

Yes but within the protocol that law enforcement officers state of the importance of uncontaminated evidence. Secondly the first contact needs to some that the alleged victim would feel free to bring the very painful and private matter up with. I KNOW of those who would have never spoken to someone unknown and 'officially appointed' They spoke to someone they knew well, trusted and could open up to.

The workers understand that this is a matter for the police to handle and guide and encourage the alleged victim to do that. Also there are councillors and therapists who are professionally trained and equipped in the field to refer victims to as is appropriate.

I know of a case where it was several years after the advice being given before the victim did that. For those of us who have not been sexually abused as a child we can on 'scratch around on the surface' in understanding the pain, trauma, grief, shame and cocktail of other emotions involved. I have deep feeling and care for those who have suffered this.

@review005 is correct, children will go to someone they know and trust. The purpose of an independent person such as snow is recommending is to act as an advocate for the child and their own support person if needed.

The scenario looks something like this:

Church has a policy on dealing with CSA. Church also appoints independent Advocate for CSA victims.

Childis a victim of CSA. Child tries to inform Friend A. Friend A doesn't know what to do. Friend A informs Worker A because a worker is involved, or an elder, or someone else within the church. Worker A should then a) insist that the police are informed; b) see what support Child and Friend A need pastorally; c) look at enacting church disciplinary measures against Abuser. Advocate is not involved in this scenario, unless Child and Friend A want someone alongside them as the process is commenced of reporting, etc.

In the same scenario, a Worker B might tell Child and Friend A to keep quiet, and not go to the police. Worker B might ignore allegations. Worker A then does nothing because they are subordinate to Worker B. Child and Friend A then seek assistance from Advocate. Advocate is better equipped to support the Child and Friend A in going to the police, and also need to relay that Worker B has attempted to prevent reporting.

The Advocate role is very important. It allows independent accountability for the ministry where Worker B has done the wrong thing, and other workers don't even know. It also gives the victim and their family support within their own church community. This whole process is extremely traumatic, without the added burden of being ostracized from your own family or spiritual community, which has been known to happen.

Appointing an Advocate is an important symbolic (and practical) step of publicly declaring to the church that the victim is not at fault, and abusers will be not protected.

One of the most important things that a person can say to a survivor of sexual assault is 'it is not your fault'. I don't know anyone who has been raped and didn't blame themselves in some way. Some more than others, but we all will wonder what we did to attract it and what we could have done to stop it. It's traumatic for a grown person to talk to someone about it never mind a child that has likely been threatened with the harm of someone they love if they tell. I was 17, just out of school and home, so not a child, but not quite an adult either. I found it hard to talk to anyone about it and I never told my parents. I was afraid to. Since I lived in a different city, I was able to never have them know.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2017 20:15:06 GMT -5

It should clarify that child sexual abuse is a sin and abhorrent to all godly people. It's also a crime that should ultimately be reported to the police just as soon as the victim feels able to do so.

Workers and friends stand ready with love and compassion to support the victim, but professional counselling may be necessary.

This would need to be worded thoughtfully. Probably one page would be enough.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2017 20:30:51 GMT -5

It was only a matter of time before the slack attitude towards CSA in Australia would reflect badly on the church.

Google: Dubbo Australia sex offender

Here's one:

...is still a member of the church where he abused young girls.

One of his relatives yesterday revealed he is still ­involved with the religion and regularly attends conferences where there are hundreds of kids.

One of the victims, whose name also has a non-publication order on it despite her wanting to speak out, said she had recently spoken to the church leader about her concerns but was ignored.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 23, 2017 0:33:49 GMT -5

There might be a case for a charge of being a party to the offence or attempting to pervert the course of justice for any person who having been told of an offence by a victim, advises the victim not to go to the police.

Post by mod4 on Nov 23, 2017 6:41:51 GMT -5

The Judge's name has been removed and Mod4 said I "could not attack a judge, any judge sorry". It was an extremely mild attack and his name and photo are still being splashed across the internet and facebook. He is being attacked in vile language from 'outsiders'. His name is still being mentioned on radio programs. His name has not been suppressed - it is the perpetrators and the women involved. When I see some of the attacks from board members on other board members and admin sit by and think its amusing, not taking into account the damage it is causing to the 'Truth' - my mind boggles.

You understand correctly, kittens. Any attack or abuse on a judge or court, however mild in your estimation, is not acceptable on TMB. You might care to look up legal definitions of contempt of court in your jurisdiction. For instance, "contempt of court is behaviour that opposes or defies the authority, justice, and dignity of the court". It is not naming the judge that is the problem. It is using language that brings the judge and his court into disrepute, which happens to be illegal in your state ('scandalising the court' I think it's called).

You also berate the admin of TMB for "sitting by and thinking" the type of posts on this thread are "amusing". This is an unfounded accusation (we might consider it "contempt of TMB"!) TMB tries to uphold - within the bounds of law - freedom of speech. If that means certain members of your church spew vile language towards others, that is terribly sad. But it is not illegal. It is also not "common decency" which is a standard we wish members of the F&W had the grace to aspire to.

If it is important to anyone in this instance to attack even mildly the judge or court of NSW, they are welcome to use some other social media forum. This does not mean you need to agree with the court decisions - it is proper to voice such views and even to express criticism of the outcome.

"Courts in Australia and England have recognised that there is a delicate balance between the right to criticise the courts and judges and the need to protect the public's confidence in the system."

Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 23, 2017 17:13:56 GMT -5

Be aware that at least one news article on this case has been removed from the internet "in response to a legal request submitted to Google," on the grounds it is defamatory.

News yesterday indicated that the DPP is returning to court next Tuesday to seek to have the suppression orders lifted.

I would urge all to proceed with great caution in the meantime regarding what they post online regarding this case. The Australian justice system can have sharp teeth for those breaking court orders of this nature.

Post by mod4 on Nov 24, 2017 3:37:59 GMT -5

Be aware that at least one news article on this case has been removed from the internet "in response to a legal request submitted to Google," on the grounds it is defamatory.

News yesterday indicated that the DPP is returning to court next Tuesday to seek to have the suppression orders lifted.

I would urge all to proceed with great caution in the meantime regarding what they post online regarding this case. The Australian justice system can have sharp teeth for those breaking court orders of this nature.

Thanks elizabethcoleman, can you advise which news article has been removed, to help us keep TMB free from any defamation or contempt problems?

We need to know if the problem news article has been quoted in any of the above posts. Help from anybody in this respect will be appreciated. You can post here, or advise us by PM.

Post by fred on Nov 24, 2017 5:24:55 GMT -5

One of the victims, whose name also has a non-publication order on it despite her wanting to speak out, said she had recently spoken to the church leader about her concerns but was ignored.

I have had this verified by a local source - the church leader being the overseer. My source also stated that this person thought the victims to be liars, nevermind that the perpetrator admitted his guilt.

Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2017 6:17:42 GMT -5

One of the victims, whose name also has a non-publication order on it despite her wanting to speak out, said she had recently spoken to the church leader about her concerns but was ignored.

I have had this verified by a local source - the church leader being the overseer. My source also stated that this person thought the victims to be liars, nevermind that the perpetrator admitted his guilt.

Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2017 6:39:14 GMT -5

It was only a matter of time before the slack attitude towards CSA in Australia would reflect badly on the church.

Google: Dubbo Australia sex offender

Here's one:

...is still a member of the church where he abused young girls.

One of his relatives yesterday revealed he is still ­involved with the religion and regularly attends conferences where there are hundreds of kids.

One of the victims, whose name also has a non-publication order on it despite her wanting to speak out, said she had recently spoken to the church leader about her concerns but was ignored.

My friend, a stich in time saves nine; too late, too late and dragging one's feet in the hope that it will all go away, brings on a dangerous and painful outcome for all involved especially the victim. It is never a case of ignore it and it will go away, it most likely festers.

Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 24, 2017 21:56:13 GMT -5

Be aware that at least one news article on this case has been removed from the internet "in response to a legal request submitted to Google," on the grounds it is defamatory.

News yesterday indicated that the DPP is returning to court next Tuesday to seek to have the suppression orders lifted.

I would urge all to proceed with great caution in the meantime regarding what they post online regarding this case. The Australian justice system can have sharp teeth for those breaking court orders of this nature.

Thanks elizabethcoleman , can you advise which news article has been removed, to help us keep TMB free from any defamation or contempt problems?

We need to know if the problem news article has been quoted in any of the above posts. Help from anybody in this respect will be appreciated. You can post here, or advise us by PM.

Thanks too for the word of caution.

Unfortunately, no. I was googling for results on the article a few days ago, and there was a Google notification that appeared on the bottom of the page that an article for this search result had been removed "in relation ... etc", but did not advise any more data on the article in question. There was a link for more information, which was full of legal jargon and Google responsibilities to the law. I got the impression that it had to do with negative comments made about the judge, as he had featured prominently in some of the articles. This was only my impression, I can't substantiate it.

There is precedent: there was an interesting furore here in Australia a few months ago where several prominent politicians made negative comments to the press regarding a judge's decision in a legal case. The politicians suddenly found themselves in legal trouble and were forced to issue public apologies for having interfered with legal proceedings/ affected public perception of a legal decision. We had another politician go to jail for naming pedophiles in court (whose names were legally suppressed). Just a few recent examples of how hot all this can suddenly get for onlookers!

Post by fred on Nov 26, 2017 5:44:11 GMT -5

One of the victims, whose name also has a non-publication order on it despite her wanting to speak out, said she had recently spoken to the church leader about her concerns but was ignored.

I have had this verified by a local source - the church leader being the overseer. My source also stated that this person thought the victims to be liars, nevermind that the perpetrator admitted his guilt.

After hearing some facts about the proceedings, I am somewhat remorseful about posting as I have and would like to make some generalisations.

Firstly, newspapers are not always deeply concerned about facts and publish reports that are missing facts and witholding information. Their job , it seems, is to generate interest and lift their paper's profile.

Secondly, in legal proceedings, it is in the prosecution's interest in either criminal or civil proceedings to 'throw as much mud as possible'. Even when claims are discredited it seems like some stain remains.

In the interest of not impeding the legal process, these are merely general comments which may or may not be relevant to the present case.

Post by howitis on Nov 26, 2017 17:00:34 GMT -5

I have had this verified by a local source - the church leader being the overseer. My source also stated that this person thought the victims to be liars, nevermind that the perpetrator admitted his guilt.

After hearing some facts about the proceedings, I am somewhat remorseful about posting as I have and would like to make some generalisations.

Firstly, newspapers are not always deeply concerned about facts and publish reports that are missing facts and witholding information. Their job , it seems, is to generate interest and lift their paper's profile.

Secondly, in legal proceedings, it is in the prosecution's interest in either criminal or civil proceedings to 'throw as much mud as possible'. Even when claims are discredited it seems like some stain remains.

In the interest of not impeding the legal process, these are merely general comments which may or may not be relevant to the present case.

Thanks fred yes there is definitely an element of "stories sell" within this case my thoughts are to try to sift through all this with hopefully a common sense attitude:On other threads it has been mentioned that the perpetrator should apologise to their victims...in this case he has to at least one.

Has the perpetrator shown remorse....I would say yes.

Is the perpetrator still offending.....certain psychological tests can usually determine whether the offender is actually a paedophile...this was mentioned earlier. I actually think he's not....but he should undergo testing.

Will jail time actually achieve anything....most likely only a negative outcome, jail time is generally to protect society, if the perpetrator is not likely to offend again jail time is costly for the society.

Post by fixit on Nov 26, 2017 17:46:41 GMT -5

The word "paedophile" seems to have been used much too freely in these news reports.

I guess the word would help to sell papers but it shouldn't be used unless there's a been a proper diagnosis.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Post by howitis on Nov 26, 2017 17:53:43 GMT -5

The word "paedophile" seems to have been used much too freely in these news reports.

I guess the word would help to sell papers but it shouldn't be used unless there's a been a proper diagnosis.

Yes too sad and too true.The damage of all this on so many is depressing, I believe there is much more to this story than has been told and that has nothing to do with names being suppressed.Parents need to be always aware that it is their responsibility to protect their children in the 1st instance....having said that I would visit this man's home with my children and grandchildren and would be fine. Would I leave them with him NO would I leave them alone with other adults NO....I am a survivor of CSA and I still can make this statement confidently.

Post by howitis on Nov 26, 2017 21:49:46 GMT -5

Understand completely what you're saying kittens, and I'm so pleased you managed to escape in this instance However, from reports it would seem some of these victims were put in this guys care from a very young age and if those reports are correct the parents really should have had more awareness. I guess the real truth lies somewhere between what the perpetrator and the victims are stating which makes it very hard to be the judge, especially whilst we have the media wanting to sell a product regardless of its correctness.

Post by fixit on Nov 26, 2017 23:00:42 GMT -5

Even the most diligent parent cannot be watching over and supervising their children 24/7. And they shouldn't have to be. There are lots of hiding places in houses, even when other adults, including the child's parents, are in the house at the same time. There are also lots of hiding places on a property or a convention ground. Looking back now and circumstances which happened I had a very lucky escape. Just saying.

This is why child protection is everyone's responsibility and everyone needs to understand that child sexual abuse is an ever-present danger.

And that it's a crime that's not acceptable or tolerated by the church or by society at large.

There seems to be an opinion that CSA awareness should be on a "need to know" basis only.

The thing is, everyone is a potential child protector who needs to be aware of what can happen and look out for children wherever they are.

So everyone needs to know about CSA.

Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11

Shoutbox

wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5