For secondary students too much emphasis is placed on non-academic activities (sports, jobs, social activities) and too little on academic work. When I graduated from high school, where I was a good but not stellar student, I had 32 credits including 18 credits in lab sciences. I took advanced placement classes in six subjects. This compares with US norms of 18 credits in total with limited opportunities for advanced placement classes.

The difference was that I went to school from 8 AM - 4 PM every day with virtually no free periods, taking 8 classes. Homework took an average of 4 hours/night with an occasional (2-3 times/month) all nighter to catch up. That was a "normal" schedule for European schools at that time. While I followed an "American" track in my studies, the European norm was also to complete 13 years of grade school before attending university. A reason for this was that a higher percentage of students did not attend college and the secondary schools were designed to provide a more complete educational foundation, somewhat comparable to what we do through junior colleges. In France and Switzerland, graduation was tied to passing a national proficiency examination covering a broad range of subjects including foreign languages, science, history, primary language, literature, and philosophy. Think how much more could be done in American high schools by adding 2-3 hours to the daily class schedule and by defining proficiency to include a little more than reading, writing and arithmetic.

Jeff - I'm sure you have the computer skills - would you transfer what I have hilited to a separate education thread on POTUS where we can have an education discussion? I hate to see comment's like Lisa's lost in another topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa Van Loo

We will be relegated to following other countries instead of being the leaders in innovation, so long as we, as a society, continue to view being intelligent as "uncool". It is very, very difficult to get young people interested in a career in the sciences or technology (unless it is writing gaming programs). Some of this (maybe a large part) has to do with how intelligent people are portrayed on television. Think of any of a number of popular TV shows, and the most intelligent characters are almost always portrayed as socially awkward, unintelligible, and badly dressed. In short, nothing any self-respecting teenager ever wants to be within a hundred miles of! Is it any wonder that our mathematics, science, and technology schools are increasingly attended by foreign nationals, and less and less by US citizens?

Lisa

I couldn't agree more. When I was little my mother worked hard to have resources included in the school budget for children with special needs (we're talking 1950's). Once she succeeded, she then lobbied to have a good portion of those funds allocated for gifted children. She received a lot of support for remedial services. However, she ran into obstacles for gifted programs because it was viewed as being somehow undemocratic to offer additional resources for those who were most gifted. With my own son I ran into a similar problem. He qualified for "special education" because he had (actually still has:)) an IQ in the 150+ range. However, no services were provided. He had the highest GPA in the entire school district and was completely bored. When I would complain, I received a stunned reaction since he was obviously doing well and didn't need anything more. I finally pulled him out of public school altogether and put him in a Quaker school where he was always pushed to be the best he could be without allowing him to fall into the trap of feeling that he was somehow superior because of his intelligence or being made to feel "less cool".

01-15-2009, 08:54 PM

Marvin S

Thank You, Jeff - though we may be at each other's throat at some other time I truly appreciate this & the fact that I didn't have to name the thread, which you managed to do quite well.

Before we start - I'll lay out my credentials - 6 1/2 years on a School Board. !st member of the Maternal side of the family to graduate from college. 7 Aunts & an Uncle on my Father's side were teachers & principals. 3 of my sons graduated as an Attorney, BS in Dairy Manufacturing & Construction Management. Each parlayed that into their own business, BTW, they all paid for their college education with an occasional care package from their parents.

It is my belief, that while longer class days may benefit some, there are social interactions in other areas that are just as beneficial to the overall health of our nation. I oppose the longer days - homework for all mentality as I believe there is more to the school experience than learning what the system wants you to learn. The system has the children for a specified period of time, they should be limited to providing their input to that time period. The skills of communication go beyond the the 3 R's.

What I believe is needed is a system that ensures a youngster has a solid foundation in life skills - mainly the 3 r's - at that point they be encouraged to explore other areas & the resources be provided for that exploration.

This would create havoc with the education establishment with their cookie cutter approach & it would create an itinerant work force, but I believe that & school choice would be very beneficial to the upgrading of educational accomplishment within our country.

This will not be my only post on this thread - as education is an interest of mine - I'd like to see people express their own opinions rather than quotes - unless something other than IMO is available - there are many experts but the system is still failing many of the children.

01-16-2009, 01:00 AM

JDogger

I agree with Jeff's model of education in France and Switzerland.

As the son of a State Department career Foreign Sevice Officer in the 50's and 60's, being deployed to a number of duty stations, I attended a variety of schools. USAF, International, Private and US Public schools.

My education was broad and scattered. Air Force schools, at the begining of my education, were little more than baby-sitting. The teachers were mostly unqualified wives of Officers, recruited to watch over us.
I then had the opportunity to attend International schools and private schools.

This was the bulk of my intermediate education. The curriculum was intensive and diverse, and fortunate also, because on my return to the states as a high school sophmore there was only one question asked of me as I entered public high school in Fairfax County VA, that fall, "what team ya playin' on boy?"

I decided to be a wrestler. So for the next two years I threw sweaty guys around on a mat, rather than join the math, science, or chess club. Like LVL says, "Ya gotta be cool."

I was successful at wrestling, but my academic pursuits suffered. When we moved again in my senior year, I had a lot to make up for, but I took a double class load, and graduated from high school on time.

I started college, but let it lapse, and the next spring the US Army grabbed me up on April 1st. (Fool's day of course) But that's another story.

JD

PS ...and yeah, Marvin, I guess some kids are just cut out to pump gas. But isn't that what we all do for ourselves now?

01-16-2009, 07:35 AM

Marvin S

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDogger

PS ...and yeah, Marvin, I guess some kids are just cut out to pump gas. But isn't that what we all do for ourselves now?

Shouldn't that be a conscious choice a young person is allowed to make, rather than having the system make it for them by not allowing opportunity? BTW, You don't pump your own gas in OR, that state has created opportunity at the lowest level for those they fail to stimulate.

01-16-2009, 09:10 AM

Pete

Not all people are able to handle lots of thinking . I would like to see a top Ceo or scientist try to hold a job down pumpimg gas. See how long that lasts.
All work is honerable and vital to an economy

Personally I hold more respect for a person who gets up every morning to clean toilets or pump gas and struggles keeping his family together than I do for a CEO or a polititian who can't keep a company together dealling with billions of dollars.

In some situations the guy pumping gas would do a better job at running a large corperation or a country for that matter. Its obvious they can do no worse anyway.

Scolastics is certainly not a magic condom for success,,,,temperament of the individual is.
They come in all different colors and sizes.

I believe the job of our education system is to turn out well rounded people who have the skills to legally survive in the real world,,,Whether that means going on to being the best doctor or being the best toilet cleaner/janitor

You see the best doctors cannot do their job without the best janitors

One cannot live a communtable life without the other.
Pete

01-16-2009, 09:22 AM

Lisa Van Loo

One of the problems with our society today is that "success" in life is often measured by the number of dollars one makes, rather than by the personal goals one achieves. There is nothing wrong with working on an assembly line, being a farmer, pumping gas. If you are the best dam assembler, farmer, or gas station attendant you can be, then you have reason to be proud. If you are caring for your family, putting food on the table and clothes on the backs of your children, a good work ethic, no matter what your role in life, is the best lesson you can teach them.

This, I think, is part of where our system is broken. Many young people believe that unless they are a CEO and flying around in a Lear jet, their work is meaningless. I see very little pride in one's work anymore, even among people who are doing a very, very good job at what they do. Because they are not millionaires, they feel like failures.

Young people today believe that in order to be successful in life, they must become a doctor, a lwayer, an MBA. When they discover they lack the skill sets to become a doctor, lawyer or MBA, they just give up.

What a shame.

I agree with Marvin; the education system should focus on a broad, solid foundation. Good literacy skills, mathematics, at least one foreign language (stimulates a part of the brain not stimulated by other putrsuits), physical and biological sciences (basic chemistry, basic biology), a social studies course of some kind. With this kind of basic education, and enough free time to dream, a child will usually find their passion by the late middle school years. Unfortunately, with the current emphasis on doing, rather than being, children rarely find their passion, so fall back on pop culture or the educational system to make their choices for them.

Lisa

01-16-2009, 10:26 AM

twall

I think our public schools are graduating a significant number of students who are not prepared to succeed in life with the education they have. Regardless of what they choose to do after HS. I think the biggest problem is that parents have completely abdicated their childrens education to the government schools. Our society has placed teachers in a revered position even when so many schools systems are failing miserably. Our society has also made a college degree as the key to future sucess.

The pursuit of knowledge has become the standard for our education system now. "We" have relenquished control to the "professionals" and dare not question them, let alone hold them accountable for what they do. Ultimately, we as parents have let our children down by abdicating our roles in their lives to others who do not love them nor have their best interests at heart, as we do.

The best way to educate your child today is to homeschool them.

Tom

01-16-2009, 10:50 AM

Lisa Van Loo

Quote:

Originally Posted by twall

The best way to educate your child today is to homeschool them.

Tom

Most working people don't have that option. or do not have enough of a grasp of subject matter to do a good job.

Better still, just stay plugged into your child's life! Pay attention to what is being taught, and how. Staying involved is the key.

Something else that bugs me; all the afterschool "activities" that children attend in order to have "well-rounded" lives. When do they ever have time to do homework? Chores around the house? When I was in school, we had one period each day for sports, and one for "electives", which could be an art class, band, chorus, whatever. If you were good, you could try out for a team, or marching band, or the school musical. Thst is, of course, if you were able to get your chores and homework done first. Otherwise, forget it!

Nowadays, it is almost the norm for children to be expected to attend various classes or participate in sports wholly outside the school realm. I suspect that at least some of this multi-tasking, overscheduling of our children's lives is yet another "acceptable" means of dumping our children on others to deal with. Abdicating our roles, as Tom points out.

Lisa

01-16-2009, 11:43 AM

twall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa Van Loo

Most working people don't have that option. or do not have enough of a grasp of subject matter to do a good job.

Better still, just stay plugged into your child's life! Pay attention to what is being taught, and how. Staying involved is the key.

Lisa,

It is surprisingly easy to homeschool your children today. There are a number or resources from curriculum to online classes. The hardest part is the true commitment to your children. It is much easier to put your children on a school bus and then have both parents march off to their jobs so they can pay for their kids to have everything they didn't growing up. Ultimately, what are children want and need is us! It is kind of like the story of the kid who opens an expensive christmas present and then spends the rest of the day playing with the empty box.

How many people do you know that wish their parents could have bought them more things instead of spending more time with them? The most precious resource we have is the brief years our children are with us.

How can we think our society is advanced when we think it is a better use of a parents time to work for some company while an unknown person making minimum wage at a daycare is raising their child? The hard part of homeschooling your children is coming to the realization you are the best teacher they can ever have and you can live a comfortable life on one income. When they are grown our children won't remmeber all the things we bought for them. But, they will remember the time we did or didn't spend with them.

As far as all the activities kids are doing today many have become human doings instead of human beings.

Tom

01-17-2009, 09:43 PM

Marvin S

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDogger

I agree with Jeff's model of education in France and Switzerland.

As the son of a State Department career Foreign Sevice Officer in the 50's and 60's, being deployed to a number of duty stations, I attended a variety of schools. USAF, International, Private and US Public schools.

My education was broad and scattered. Air Force schools, at the begining of my education, were little more than baby-sitting. The teachers were mostly unqualified wives of Officers, recruited to watch over us.
I then had the opportunity to attend International schools and private schools.

This was the bulk of my intermediate education. The curriculum was intensive and diverse, and fortunate also, because on my return to the states as a high school sophmore there was only one question asked of me as I entered public high school in Fairfax County VA, that fall, "what team ya playin' on boy?"

I decided to be a wrestler. So for the next two years I threw sweaty guys around on a mat, rather than join the math, science, or chess club. Like LVL says, "Ya gotta be cool."

I was successful at wrestling, but my academic pursuits suffered. When we moved again in my senior year, I had a lot to make up for, but I took a double class load, and graduated from high school on time.

I started college, but let it lapse, and the next spring the US Army grabbed me up on April 1st. (Fool's day of course) But that's another story. JD

I find it interesting that both you & Jeff were in international schools & make up a goodly portion of the resident lefties on this forum. But one thing I notice in both your posts is that you had conscious choices & opportunities extended because of those choices.

I grew up in SD during the depression - the little kid who walked 2 miles in 20 below weather to school, which I actually did. Had we lived on the other side of a dirt road I would have gone to a different school, still 2 miles. Our teachers were the local high school girls who were bright, went to normal school the 1st year out of high school for 12 weeks, 3 other 6 week periods during the next 5 summers & they were certificated elementary school teachers. It would be a blessing to today's educational environment if we were able to duplicate their efforts.

The country schools had 15-25 children, all grades, & the students studied while the others were receiving instruction. Many times the brightest among us would watch the older kids, prepared to answer the questions they could not. One interesting sidelight is those of us that were in the 4th grade together, 3 boys, all became Engineers, 1 PHD in Geological, 1 Civil & 1 Mining. We never held spelling bees as I was the resident County champion from the 3rd grade on. I thank my teacher, Goldie Lee, for carting me all over so I could compete. We were taught from a lesson plan prepared in the county superintendent's office. One year I lived with an aunt in a different town school area, the rest of my 1-6 years were spent with my Grandparents, who raised me until I was 12, as my parents were not capable. I was unwanted & a burden in their separate lives. My grandmother died when I was in the 6th grade & for the 7th grade I was carted off to my mothers & the big city school environment of Sioux Falls, SD. For the next 4 years I never went to the same school from year to year, it was only through the efforts of my HS BB coach, Bruce Crockett, that I was able to attend the HS I graduated from for 2 straight years. While times were simpler, I am able to empathize with the trials many youngsters go through today. The best thing I received throughout all those travails was NO sympathy. I believe we extend the hardship moniker to easily today & some are foolish enough to fall for it. But I do remember those in the SF school system that were contemptuous of this bright little skinny kid in the Good Will hand me downs. Someday I'll tell the story of the comic book & Ms Porter or the Valentine & Ms Hansen.

From the 7th through the 12th grades I absorbed most of what was presented, which was little, but still managed to ace the statewide aptitude test given during our Senior year. It was quite a blow to the aces of the class when the person who finished in the middle was the object of most college recruiters interest. I chose a school in the North Central conference (my HS Physics teacher offered to contact MIT for me, but I was interested in being a Coach at the time) so I could play BB but found them to be an extension of what I had received in HS, so did a stint in the AF, but that's a subject for a separate thread on Higher Education.

I only present this as I believe it to be the exact opposite of Jeff & JD's educational opportunities & I do not feel shorted because of what happened.