1:43-scale Moss cars

Malcolm mentioned the Bob Berry finless D-type of the 1955 race. The narrative in John Moore's little TT book describes it as an Ecurie Ecosse car, but it was entered by Jack Broadhead. From other sources it appears to have been one of the 1954 cars, XKC403 = OKV2. Why finless?

Robin, John Moore's wee book ;) is wrong on the Ecurie Ecosse point, but otherwise excellent and a valued little treasure in the McKeag bookcase.

The reason it was finless is that is was an ex-works car sold to Jack Broadhead and fins (which on the '54 cars were rivetted-on additions, not integral as in the '55 body) were for works cars only so it was taken off as partof the 'privatisation'. I am not sure where I read this (as you may safely infer, I read avidily anything I can find on those halcyon Dundrod days) but I'm pretty sure it was the case.

Incidentally (and since we are on a Moss thread) what do you think of this:

"That year [1955] saw Stirling shadow the great Argentine in most Grands Prix, famously beating him to win the British Grand Prix at Aintree racing the Mercedes-Benz W196 Monoposto. In that same year, he also won the epic 1,000 mile Mille Miglia road race in the Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR, at an astonishing average speed of 97.9mph on public roads, the Targa Florio road race, again in the 300 SLR, and the Tourist Trophy at Goodwood."

Know where you can find it? ON THE OFFICIAL SIR STIRLING MOSS WEBSITE!!!!

"That year [1955] saw Stirling shadow the great Argentine in most Grands Prix, famously beating him to win the British Grand Prix at Aintree racing the Mercedes-Benz W196 Monoposto. In that same year, he also won the epic 1,000 mile Mille Miglia road race in the Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR, at an astonishing average speed of 97.9mph on public roads, the Targa Florio road race, again in the 300 SLR, and the Tourist Trophy at Goodwood."

Know where you can find it? ON THE OFFICIAL SIR STIRLING MOSS WEBSITE!!!!

For the Jaguar dark green it may sound counter intuitive because it should normally be more complicated, but for people in the UK Halfords can mix an aerosol of Jaguar 'British Racing Green' that is the very dark green shade. But I hope this doesn't start another 'Cretins' sub-thread!

A bit disappointing, frankly: I had to buy it ready-built because SMTS could not or would not supply me with a kit and the build-quality is nowhere near as good as the first one. The steering wheel rim is lose, the seat is not secured, the tyres come off and the front wheels have not been put on straight. (Apart from that it's great, of course.) Whether or not I could have built it myself is a moot point - I'm not very good, being one-eyed, clumsy and not very patient - but it would have been fun to try. The experience has probably cured me from paying these sorts of prices for 1:43rd scale (or indeed any scale) toy cars.

where, as you see, the confusion over which car is which and that we seem to agree originates with wrong captioning in Robert Raymond's 1953 biography Stirling Moss continues.

I believe our concensus is that the car on the left, with the 'elephant ears' intakes and the panier tanks is the Lake Garda car (no 46) and the car on the right, number 22, is the Monacco Cooper Mk IV.

A bit disappointing, frankly: I had to buy it ready-built because SMTS could not or would not supply me with a kit and the build-quality is nowhere near as good as the first one. The steering wheel rim is lose, the seat is not secured, the tyres come off and the front wheels have not been put on straight. (Apart from that it's great, of course.) Whether or not I could have built it myself is a moot point - I'm not very good, being one-eyed, clumsy and not very patient - but it would have been fun to try. The experience has probably cured me from paying these sorts of prices for 1:43rd scale (or indeed any scale) toy cars.

where, as you see, the confusion over which car is which and that we seem to agree originates with wrong captioning in Robert Raymond's 1953 biography Stirling Moss continues.

I believe our concensus is that the car on the left, with the 'elephant ears' intakes and the panier tanks is the Lake Garda car (no 46) and the car on the right, number 22, is the Monacco Cooper Mk IV.

Well your seller got it wrong as well, brave of you to buy!He doesn't say whether it was factory built but I suspect not, as you will be aware build standards from so-called professional builders vary enormously. The one's that really know what they are doing tend to take forever over the job... Should you have any more kits to be built I can put you in touch with a guy who is quick, good and doesn't charge too much.

Well your seller got it wrong as well, brave of you to buy!He doesn't say whether it was factory built but I suspect not, as you will be aware build standards from so-called professional builders vary enormously. The one's that really know what they are doing tend to take forever over the job... Should you have any more kits to be built I can put you in touch with a guy who is quick, good and doesn't charge too much.

Thanks Rod. Iasked the seller if he had built the car himself or where he got it and his answer was 'from a wholesale course direct from SMTS'.

Presumably you deal a fair bit witrh SMTS and they supply you as a trade customer. They seem as if they do not really want to deal with retail or one-off buyers. I got the Lake Garda car direct from them, and it's a lovely job.

Thanks Rod. Iasked the seller if he had built the car himself or where he got it and his answer was 'from a wholesale course direct from SMTS'.

Presumably you deal a fair bit witrh SMTS and they supply you as a trade customer. They seem as if they do not really want to deal with retail or one-off buyers. I got the Lake Garda car direct from them, and it's a lovely job.

Have not dealt with SMTS for some years now, around 2004 I started to run down Model Garage to concentrate on other interests, now I'm looking to build it back up again so will probably start dealing with them again.

I tended to despair over their intransigence, I would order something and it didn't arrive. Their response would be "we haven't got those at the moment", despite having given the impression they were in stock. Every now and again a parcel would turn up from them containing something I'd ordered maybe 2 years before and completely forgotten!

I don't think they are reluctant particularly to deal with retail, I think they are perhaps trying to keep too many models "current" and at the same time keep as little stock as possible. I used to think they needed someone a little more customer orientated to deal with their customers, sounds as though things are still the same.

I used to find Starter and PM much easier to deal with, although I think many used to despair about them.

to the modest collection (having properly stuck-down the tonneau cover!), the first version

being now in the collection of the GMH.

Spot the deliberate error, anyone?

Given the significance of Tommy Wisdom's alloy-bodied car both to the development of the marque and to the Moss career it seems extraordinary that no manufacturer has done a model, yet the less significant steel-bodied car from the May 1951 Silverstone meeting is widely and cheaply available.

Brumm do the aforementioned steel-bodied Silverstone car with competition number 26 and the reg plate that you see above: JWK 650 - but all the photos from that meeting show it as JWK 675. I wonder where Brumm got the 650 number (other than the fact that it was a Jaguar works number).

Steve you are also right about the oversize filler cap: I'll atend to that when I get round to changing the numbers on the plates.

Sorry should have made it clear, Milestone (they were known earlier as Gems & Cobwebs) went out of business some years ago. They were not the most highly prized of white metal models so if anyone should find one it maybe would not be too expensive. I believe their XK120 was one of their better efforts although a little long and narrow.

In the last year or so a large collection of S Moss models was offered for sale by the widow of the collector , and I understand the collection was bought by the Haynes Museum , from the photos which appeared at the time it is worth a look, a friend made the Dundrod Merc in the collection using a Brumm model as the base model, there were some one offs in the collection made by various English artisans .

Thanks for the heads-up on the Haynes International Motor Museum. Finally got there this weekend. Their collection of 1/43rd-scale Moss cars is indeed extensive and extends over the whole of one wall of one of the exhibition halls. I didn’t count them (nor could they give me an exact figure) but there must be close to 150 individual models, extending from the first Cooper 500s

and the Dundrod XK120 (with the wrong colour tonneau, btw) through to the ill-fated Goodwood Lotus.

And with loads of other lovely little oh-I-wish items along the way

Although he hasn’t been on this thread (being more concerned, one supposes, with the real thing) I can only assume that the display was put together with the active collaboration of Doug Nye. It is called Stirling Moss – His Cars – His Career (sounds familiar) and the information panels, as full and as interesting as the models themselves, reveal more than a passing derivation from Doug’s book Stirling Moss – My Cars, My Career.

An information panel says the display was put together over 30 years by Stuart Leake and claims to have every car that Moss raced:

The curator told me that the museum had bought the collection from, rather than been given it by, the model-maker’s widow. The claim to have every car isn’t quite true (there is at least one car that I have – the 1954 TT D-type – that I could not see there) and there are a couple of little inaccuracies – but to cavil at such detail, while terribly TNF, of course, would seem almost churlish in the fact of such a work of dedication.

Many of the models we would all recognise and some of us have – but others must surely be unique.

Stuart Leake apparently built many himself from scratch and the detail is as astounding as it is – at least to a multi-thumbed, one-eyed bogger such as I – humbling. Positively green making – an appropriate colour in the circumstances, I suppose.

The Museum admission is just under £10 but if you are a UK resident and Gift Aid it, the admission pass you get is valid for a year – well worth it if you can pass that way more than once in a 12-month.

The rest of the collection is pretty impressive too. Even Mrs M found it interesting: ‘oh look: ((

Jade miniatures who make resin kits and handbulit models have just released a model of the ERA Type G as driven by Stirling in 1952. They have made a few of his cars and are set to do more- Ferguson P99 is one. In the Grand Prix Models magazine 4 small wheels,there is a lovely built model of the Lake garda Cooper- the colour is described as green anodised aluminium!

Jade miniatures who make resin kits and handbulit models have just released a model of the ERA Type G as driven by Stirling in 1952. They have made a few of his cars and are set to do more- Ferguson P99 is one. In the Grand Prix Models magazine 4 small wheels, there is a lovely built model of the Lake Garda Cooper- the colour is described as green anodised aluminium!

See posts 34 to 45 or so - they are all about that SMTS Cooper model. For once we weren't arguing about the colour! Smply winding Malcolm up by suggesting he'd got the wrong model I haven't heard of Jade before, what's there price level and quality like? I know, I should check with 4SW before asking.

See posts 34 to 45 or so - they are all about that SMTS Cooper model. For once we weren't arguing about the colour! Smply winding Malcolm up by suggesting he'd got the wrong model I haven't heard of Jade before, what's there price level and quality like? I know, I should check with 4SW before asking.

and actually (and according to the Great Man Himself, whom I eventually asked about it) it was the Monacco Cooper that was the anodised green. You know, the no 22 Mk IV without the saddle.... aaaaargh!!! (Retreats, strangled, by assorted TNF friends who've had enough...)

I Googled Jade Minitures and found them on several retail sites. Prices seem to average £50 from Grand Prix models and 60 Euros from this one : http://www.kitminiatures.com/kit/

Looking at the images, it looks as if at least some of the models in the Haynes Museum collection might be by them.

They have their own website- http://www.jademinia...nouveautes.htmlas you say GPM is not a bad place to start either! The ERA is in the nouveautes section.I only mention Jade as they seem to be on a Stirling Moss kick. Chris.

They have their own website- http://www.jademinia...nouveautes.htmlas you say GPM is not a bad place to start either! The ERA is in the nouveautes section.I only mention Jade as they seem to be on a Stirling Moss kick. Chris.

Thanks, Chris.

Quite a treasure trove. Je suis not tres bon a la francaise, so struggling un peu avec leur site-de-web. I've checked the picture gallery that comes up when one clicks on Voitures and then Serie Jade Course and I've downloaded the PDF price list (Tarif). Do I infer correctly from that price list that one can buy a kit (usually for around E56 - which is the sort of price one pays for an SMTS kit, if one can get it) that one can build into one of the versions shown? Eg, the J4316A 250F Maserati, and that if I order J4316A as a kit it will come with the appropriate decals and transfers to build into the Moss car pictured as J4316A3.

Has anyone any experience of their kits.

After my experince with the built versions of the 500cc Coopers (have I told you about these, by the way?) I am reluctant to pay three-figure amounts no matter how badly I want the model. Anyway, I like to build them even if they turn out not so good as the professionally-built ones.

Quite a treasure trove. Je suis not tres bon a la francaise, so struggling un peu avec leur site-de-web. I've checked the picture gallery that comes up when one clicks on Voitures and then Serie Jade Course and I've downloaded the PDF price list (Tarif). Do I infer correctly from that price list that one can buy a kit (usually for around E56 - which is the sort of price one pays for an SMTS kit, if one can get it) that one can build into one of the versions shown? Eg, the J4316A 250F Maserati, and that if I order J4316A as a kit it will come with the appropriate decals and transfers to build into the Moss car pictured as J4316A3.

Has anyone any experience of their kits.

After my experince with the built versions of the 500cc Coopers (have I told you about these, by the way?) I am reluctant to pay three-figure amounts no matter how badly I want the model. Anyway, I like to build them even if they turn out not so good as the professionally-built ones.

Hello Malcolm, Yes,you are correct- they do make a lot of 250F models.I have only seen and built one Jade kit. It was Stirling's car but the one driven by Mike Hawthorn at Crystal Palace. A fairly straightforward kit,good decals etc but let down by having photo etch suspension,which is ok,but the front is impossible to fit and I ended up bending it a bit and swearing a lot! A decent and accurate model though.

Thanks for sharing the museum visit with us, Malcolm, including the photos.
One photo was of the 1953 Dundrod TT C-type. Is it correct in having no tonneau cover, or is that one of the few "little inaccuracies" you refrained from cavilling over?
Most models of the 1953 C-type are of the Le Mans-winning car, with tonneau cover. I have two and am converting one to Moss's TT car, and the only photos I seem to have are the two in John Moore's little book. The one of Moss's car doesn't show the cockpit. The one of the Hamilton-Rolt car seems to show a mechanic leaning over with one hand on a tonneau cover, though it isn't very clear.
Regards,
Robin

Thanks for sharing the museum visit with us, Malcolm, including the photos.One photo was of the 1953 Dundrod TT C-type. Is it correct in having no tonneau cover, or is that one of the few "little inaccuracies" you refrained from cavilling over?Most models of the 1953 C-type are of the Le Mans-winning car, with tonneau cover. I have two and am converting one to Moss's TT car, and the only photos I seem to have are the two in John Moore's little book. The one of Moss's car doesn't show the cockpit. The one of the Hamilton-Rolt car seems to show a mechanic leaning over with one hand on a tonneau cover, though it isn't very clear.Regards,Robin

Robin.My belief is that the 1953 TT car did have a tonneau cover. If you follow this link http://www.motorgrap...p;numperpage=10 you will find a number of photos of Moss at the '53 TT, courtesy of our friends at the GPL - Grand Prix Library (prop D Nye, I believe). None shows the cover definitively but in most you can see what looks like its edge. Incidentally, there is a riddle even here. In '53 Moss's car (which IIRC - I don't have my reference books to hand - was indeed his Le Mans car) had two white recognition bars, one either side the radiator. Yet in one of the photos in that collection, the white bars have gone - but it's obviously Moss and its obviously a '53 C-type and its number is 7 and it looks like Dundrod. (The most obvious difference between the '51 and '53 C-types is the bonnet louvre pattern: triangular (sort of) in '51 and rectangular in '53. Another difference, TT-wise, is that in '53 Moss's car had BRDC badges either side on the doors, in '51 it did not. Could the picture have been taken during practice, before the recognition bars were added, perhaps?) In one of my books - I think it is Andrew Whyte's C-type book, but it might be Karl L's Moss photo-book - there is a very good side-on shot of Moss at the '53 TT and I'm fairly sure that shows a tonneau. Incidentally - Moss must have clouted the bank at some stage, because that photo - a left-side side view - also shows two very distinct dents and some missing paint-work from the passenger-side rear corner - so you might wish to incorporate that in you recreation.

The picture, no pun intended, is not helped by this sort of thing: http://shop.simonlew...drod-1310-p.asp not least because there was no TT in 1952. This is assuredly the '51 car and race, don't you think.

Actually - that Haynes car did display one of the little inaccuracies of which I spoke, though I wasn't thinking of the tonneau. The information plate has it as "Winner" - but of course Moss had to stop short of the finish due to a fractured oil pipe and trundle across after Peter Collins had won the 1953 TT in an Aston Martin DB3s. Moss and the C-type were fourth overall, though 1st in class. Fastest lap, too, IIRC. But as you note: to cavil in the face of such a lovely display would be only churlish.

Thanks, Malcolm. That's a good site for photos. A couple do suggest a tonneau cover, as does the one of the Hamilton-Rolt car in the Moore book. The photo without the vertical recognition bars could have been taken during practice, as you say. And yes, the louvres changed – they were broader and fewer in 1951, which is the main reason why the model will remain Moss's 1953 car rather than become the winning 1951 C-type.
The photo on the simonlewis.com website does appear to have been taken at Dundrod, and the louvres would confirm the car is the 1951 winner.
The info on that site seems wrong in another way besides the year. It says Moss won from Peter Whitehead, but Peter Walker drove the second-placed car in 1951.
I must dig out my old newspaper clippings from the early 50s – from the Tele and the Newsletter. I had them in a scrapbook but it was damaged in a house-fire in 1994 and I got part-way through salvaging the material, then put much of it away somewhere.
Robin

Thanks for sharing the museum visit with us, Malcolm, including the photos.One photo was of the 1953 Dundrod TT C-type. Is it correct in having no tonneau cover, or is that one of the few "little inaccuracies" you refrained from cavilling over?Most models of the 1953 C-type are of the Le Mans-winning car, with tonneau cover. I have two and am converting one to Moss's TT car, and the only photos I seem to have are the two in John Moore's little book. The one of Moss's car doesn't show the cockpit. The one of the Hamilton-Rolt car seems to show a mechanic leaning over with one hand on a tonneau cover, though it isn't very clear.Regards,Robin

I can come back to this with what would appear to be the definitive answer: the Haynes model would appear to be correct and in 1953 Moss drove in the RAC TT at Dundrod in a C-type with no tonneau cover. I am back at home and able to look again at the photo to which I referred earlier in Karl Lugvisen's 1997 book Stirling Moss Racing With The Maestro (published, coincidentally, by Haynes). That shows very clearly that the car is running with no tonneau. The photo is too much of a close-up for me to identify where on the circuit it was taken other than it is a section where the road runs downhill with open boulder-strewn hillside rising behind it: and that is nowhere I immediately recognise and I thought I knew Dundrod fairly well. However, it is obviously race day since there are no fewer than 13 fence-hanging spectators in view - too mnay for a practice session in such an open part of the countryside. If you can find the book I commend it to you if only for the detail available on this particular car and photo - but there is a wealth of photographs from throughout Moss's career.

Curiously all the likely sources are silent on which car this was - even the normally encyclopedic Andrew Whyte admits that his researches could uncover no records of who drove which car but since the pre-race information from Jaguar to Gordon Neill, Secretary of the UAC, advised that they would enter the three Le Mans lightweights I assume that Moss drove his Le Mans car XKC 053. So you may safely use your spare model: don't forget the BRDC badge and the rear passenger-side bodywork damage.

I can come back to this with what would appear to be the definitive answer: the Haynes model would appear to be correct and in 1953 Moss drove in the RAC TT at Dundrod in a C-type with no tonneau cover. I am back at home and able to look again at the photo to which I referred earlier in Karl Lugvisen's 1997 book Stirling Moss Racing With The Maestro (published, coincidentally, by Haynes). That shows very clearly that the car is running with no tonneau. The photo is too much of a close-up for me to identify where on the circuit it was taken other than it is a section where the road runs downhill with open boulder-strewn hillside rising behind it: and that is nowhere I immediately recognise and I thought I knew Dundrod fairly well. However, it is obviously race day since there are no fewer than 13 fence-hanging spectators in view - too mnay for a practice session in such an open part of the countryside. If you can find the book I commend it to you if only for the detail available on this particular car and photo - but there is a wealth of photographs from throughout Moss's career.

Curiously all the likely sources are silent on which car this was - even the normally encyclopedic Andrew Whyte admits that his researches could uncover no records of who drove which car but since the pre-race information from Jaguar to Gordon Neill, Secretary of the UAC, advised that they would enter the three Le Mans lightweights I assume that Moss drove his Le Mans car XKC 053. So you may safely use your spare model: don't forget the BRDC badge and the rear passenger-side bodywork damage.

I HAVE LOOKED AT FOOTAGE OF A PITSTOP AND THERE IS NO TONNEAU ON THE MOSS CAR

Curiously all the likely sources are silent on which car this was - even the normally encyclopedic Andrew Whyte admits that his researches could uncover no records of who drove which car but since the pre-race information from Jaguar to Gordon Neill, Secretary of the UAC, advised that they would enter the three Le Mans lightweights I assume that Moss drove his Le Mans car XKC 053. So you may safely use your spare model: don't forget the BRDC badge and the rear passenger-side bodywork damage.

Terry Larson's C-Type Register has the following for XKC 053, "...Tourist Trophy, Moss/Walker (with engine number 1054-9 [originally 1055-8], 3.54:1 axle, race number 7), retired but lap record to Walker..."

Spotted this on eBay about a week ago, opening bid £4.99. Thought to myself: 'I'll have that - but no point bidding yet, I'll wait until just before the auction ends and slap in a high bid, grab it before anyone else has time to bid back.'

It sat for a long time at at £26.50, so I thought - 'I'll go to fifty quid... that should do it'.

Then just as the auction was due to end I was distracted by something else, missed the end and thought 'Bother!. I wonder what it went for - some lucky B has picked up a bargain.'

Paid forty quid for mine (ready built) at a collectors fair nearly twenty years ago. Frightened myself by spending that much money at the time. Glad I did because its still a centre piece of my collection. It always brings back happy memories my Dad and I watching Stirling drive it to victory on tv fifty years ago.

Paid forty quid for mine (ready built) at a collectors fair nearly twenty years ago. Frightened myself by spending that much money at the time. Glad I did because its still a centre piece of my collection. It always brings back happy memories my Dad and I watching Stirling drive it to victory on tv fifty years ago.

Yes I've snapped a few but have never managed to work out how to post them here. My Moss section is quite small only about a dozen cars, mainly sports but also an Eldorado Special for my Monza Indy section. My main theme is Mike Hawthorn and Ferrari.

Yes I've snapped a few but have never managed to work out how to post them here. My Moss section is quite small only about a dozen cars, mainly sports but also an Eldorado Special for my Monza Indy section. My main theme is Mike Hawthorn and Ferrari.

I HAVE LOOKED AT FOOTAGE OF A PITSTOP AND THERE IS NO TONNEAU ON THE MOSS CAR

Thanks, Mal and Edward. That's more than useful.Apologies for not picking up your information promptly. I must change my "settings" to get email notification of new posts.And Malcolm, among the website photos of the 1953 TT Moss C that you pointed me to, one showed the car without the vertical stripes on the front, and you suggested it may have been taken in practice. I think there's another difference. In that photo Moss is clearly wearing goggles. In the others, or at least where his face is at all visible, he's probably wearing a visor. Perhaps in practice he wore goggles and on the wet race day a visor.Yes; I've been wondering about the BRDC badge. This is a 1:32 model and I haven't found a source yet.I've just bought a Fangio Mille Miglia 300SLR to convert to one of the 1955 TT cars, either Moss's or Fangio's. Mainly a matter of changing the race numbers and windscreen. The fairing behind the driver seems correct – Mercedes didn't use the Le Mans air brake at Dundrod, of course.I don't think I'm up to recreating the damage to either Moss car, however, even in plastic. They did start intact!Aargh, I sense someone saying. 1:32 plastic? Well, my other C-type is a 1:43 diecast. It sits beside a Maserati A6GCS, both awaiting TT race numbers.Robjohn

There are several photos in Autosport 11th September showing the Moss car with ID stripes including the Le Mans style start. Autocouse shows Moss and Rolt trying to outsprint each other and Moss is wearing a visor. Incidentley the No 8 car of Whitehead and Stewart also appears to have a BRDC badge on the side