ialdabaoth:> On the other hand, without trying, I can't socialize at all, and no matter how badly I wish it were otherwise, I suffer the same trauma others do by being shut out from society. No friends. No lovers. Depression. Self-loathing. You know, all those things that normal people feel when they get put into solitary confinement.

The difference is, the common judgment is that people like us *deserve* it.

And it's funny.

...well, no, actually, the common consensus is that people like them deserve it too, when they get it. Our society adores the "just world hypothesis".

And yet, here we are. A nation where NASCAR and McDonald's are king, and rampant obesity due to over-indulgence is the norm. Yup, it truly is a 'just' world. These are obviously the cutting edge of Humanity. 'Murrica, fark yeah!

Gmutterfark:CutBoard: mutterfark: There is a rather large difference between the kind of shyness you can fix with a little alcohol and a disabling terror of personal interaction.One of the reasons I started Farking was a hope that anonymous interaction would lead to easier "real" interaction. It didn't work. I seem normal when I interact with people, but that's only due to years of practicing coping strategies. I tried the 'have a few drinks' method for years but found I still couldn't speak to women unless I was so drunk I was incoherent. The only way I can talk to women in public is convine myself of their unavailability. In fact, it's bad enough that I rarely post anything but lame attempts at humor even with the anonymity of Fark. Just typing this personal of a response is causing an anxiety reaction.To sum up, in spite of being incomprehensible to most, shyness can be debilitating.

Wrong answer, if your able to type out your thoughts then your able to speak them. You did a real nice try at attempting to be "shy", but, your trying to convince the wrong people. The only one you need to deal with is yourself.

Wrong answer? Attempting to be shy? I have worked very hard to be where I am today and will continue to work at improvement until I die. As for being able to post here? Are you telling me you can't see a world of difference between an ordinary face to face interaction and anonymous chatting on Fark?

Got you to work up and chat. That's a world of difference. Sometimes, it helps to be a little irritated when you're talkting to people, after all, that little irritation, is the same thing that get's you up in the morning and to get going. Congrats.

Kuroshin:ialdabaoth: > On the other hand, without trying, I can't socialize at all, and no matter how badly I wish it were otherwise, I suffer the same trauma others do by being shut out from society. No friends. No lovers. Depression. Self-loathing. You know, all those things that normal people feel when they get put into solitary confinement.

The difference is, the common judgment is that people like us *deserve* it.

And it's funny.

...well, no, actually, the common consensus is that people like them deserve it too, when they get it. Our society adores the "just world hypothesis".

And yet, here we are. A nation where NASCAR and McDonald's are king, and rampant obesity due to over-indulgence is the norm. Yup, it truly is a 'just' world. These are obviously the cutting edge of Humanity. 'Murrica, fark yeah!

And we still lead the world in prison rape, drone bombings of civilian children, secret torture facilities, nuclear weapons, naval superiority, ground force superiority, and air superiority - so your choices are to be a part of 'Murrica, or raped in the ass by 'Murrica.

"You are under the impression that hatred is more exhausting than love. Why should it be? And if it were, what difference would that make? Suppose that we choose to wear ourselves out faster. Suppose that we quicken the tempo of human life till men are senile at thirty. Still what difference would it make?"

ACunningPlan:my herniated disc: ACunningPlan: mutterfark: There is a rather large difference between the kind of shyness you can fix with a little alcohol and a disabling terror of personal interaction.One of the reasons I started Farking was a hope that anonymous interaction would lead to easier "real" interaction. It didn't work. I seem normal when I interact with people, but that's only due to years of practicing coping strategies. I tried the 'have a few drinks' method for years but found I still couldn't speak to women unless I was so drunk I was incoherent. The only way I can talk to women in public is convine myself of their unavailability. In fact, it's bad enough that I rarely post anything but lame attempts at humor even with the anonymity of Fark. Just typing this personal of a response is causing an anxiety reaction.To sum up, in spite of being incomprehensible to most, shyness can be debilitating.

Only if you choose to let it be debilitating. Due to a set of shiatty and ridiculously complicated circumstances, any type of "real" socializing is a complete nightmare for me. I can do it extremely well, but I would rather eat ground glass, avoid it as much as possible and think "thank christ that's over" when it's finished. I started Farking for the same reasons; although I'd lurked for years and in a truly perverse way, Fark restored my faith in humanity a bit....make of that what you will. And when there is a Fark party in my area, I may well attend - out of curiosity:)

The point is I could classify myself as shy or having a social anxiety disorder and blame those traits for the difficulty. In reality, it's a choice. Is it a good one? Maybe not, but handing over money &/or taking pills to "fix" me, likewise seems a bit daft. Not saying all mental illnesses &/or disorders aren't real, or treatable with appropriate therapies. Just that some of what's peddled as needing help or medication is exaggerated.

except social anxiety is more than just shyness, it can ...

yeah, fair enough. in retrospect I see you didn't actually say such disorders don't actually exist.

I think I was reacting to the general lack of compassion and sense of hostility I am seeing on this thread :S. Of course one doesn't come to fark to see people giving other people the benefit of the doubt!

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier:Just meeting the people you chat with online is a huge thing. I've made it a bit of a hobby to actually find the people who I screw around with. And, by default, that means I'll have to travel some pretty good distances.

i think that's awesome. not many people venture out like that, it shows a lot of spirit and interest in your fellow mankind. i admire that. if you're ever in No.NJ you're invited to a home cooked, get to meet my new dog.

Kuroshin:And yet, here we are. A nation where NASCAR and McDonald's are king, and rampant obesity due to over-indulgence is the norm. Yup, it truly is a 'just' world. These are obviously the cutting edge of Humanity. 'Murrica, fark yeah!

Wait, NASCAR? What does NASCAR have to do with the world being just or unjust? Does NASCAR involve torturing babies?

I've seen a psychiatrist because of social anxiety. I'm probably not as bad of a case than many others, I don't need any medication, and talk therapy seems to work pretty well for me. So paying a copay to see a professional for an hour every few weeks to me is definitely worth. I actually like the doctor a lot, and look forward to going there.

For me, talking one-on-one is not a problem at all. Even a group of three people is fine, I can be really outgoing. But once the group gets bigger, it gets really uncomfortable really quickly.

Anyway, there is a certain feedback loop to the whole thing. I realize very well that my anxiety is not reasonable, and I don't want to feel like it. But the realization in a way makes it worse, because you feel less of yourself, so that in turn makes you more vulnerable to the anxiety and even obsessing over wondering how other people are seeing you.

And since feelings come from thoughts, it's easy to see how that would reinforce itself.

But fortunately, for anyone who is living with this kind of condition, you can overcome it. It will require work, but just like you can practice your muscles, you can practice your brain too.

Telling my friends about it helped a lot. Ignoring the problem doesn't help. You need to acknowledge and validate your own feelings, and it's great if you can get your friends to validate your feelings too. Feelings aren't wrong or right, they just are what they are.

Anyone who's battling with this issue, don't be afraid to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Also, ironically, if you care about the people on Fark (and outside of Fark) who say "Man up!" you are only reinforcing the negative thought patterns. So the best you can do is ignore them.

Xcott:Kuroshin: And yet, here we are. A nation where NASCAR and McDonald's are king, and rampant obesity due to over-indulgence is the norm. Yup, it truly is a 'just' world. These are obviously the cutting edge of Humanity. 'Murrica, fark yeah!

Wait, NASCAR? What does NASCAR have to do with the world being just or unjust? Does NASCAR involve torturing babies?

Every engine that is made, every tire changed, every gallon of gas burned signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in derp is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.

> Telling my friends about it helped a lot. Ignoring the problem doesn't help. You need to acknowledge and validate your own feelings, and it's great if you can get your friends to validate your feelings too. Feelings aren't wrong or right, they just are what they are.

That's not what my friends tell me.

> Anyone who's battling with this issue, don't be afraid to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Assuming you can afford one.

> Also, ironically, if you care about the people on Fark (and outside of Fark) who say "Man up!" you are only reinforcing the negative thought patterns. So the best you can do is ignore them.

Social Anxiety Disorder may be controversial, but it's not a conspiracy. Sorry, but people find out about real conspiracies. And it isn't about "guys who can't talk to girls". It's about people who can't talk to anyone.The kind of people who go years without making a single friend. Part of what makes a personality disorder a disorder is when it severely affects that person's mental or physical well-being. If you can reliably diagnose someone with that disorder based on a collective set of symptoms, and then can test those diagnosed for increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death, which you can do with social anxiety disorder, and find that people with the disorder are consistently at a higher risk for all three, then you can reliably call this a personality disorder. Really, I can understand indifference in this issue, but aversion is more harmful to those inflicted than most people can guess. Sort of like the effects of homophobia on gays, causing an increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death.

chatikh:Social Anxiety Disorder may be controversial, but it's not a conspiracy. Sorry, but people find out about real conspiracies. And it isn't about "guys who can't talk to girls". It's about people who can't talk to anyone.The kind of people who go years without making a single friend. Part of what makes a personality disorder a disorder is when it severely affects that person's mental or physical well-being. If you can reliably diagnose someone with that disorder based on a collective set of symptoms, and then can test those diagnosed for increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death, which you can do with social anxiety disorder, and find that people with the disorder are consistently at a higher risk for all three, then you can reliably call this a personality disorder. Really, I can understand indifference in this issue, but aversion is more harmful to those inflicted than most people can guess. Sort of like the effects of homophobia on gays, causing an increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death.

But if they don't have any friends, then there isn't anyone to care about them, so why bother worrying about them?

That it's painful to talk to me for extended periods of time, and that I'm not really their problem, and that THEY at least have a life, and should be getting back to it.

I've felt that way too. I've felt that I'm a burden, and then that makes me withdraw even more. And then I wonder why no-one wants to talk to me, and then I realize it's because I'm a burden, and the cycle is complete.

This is where the professional help comes in - they can help you break the cycle of feeling bad.

If you can't afford to pay a professional, there might be other ways of getting help. I wonder if there are any volunteer or charity organizations that organize help like this. I don't know.

I have social anxiety disorder. I'm the fourth generation. I take medication and it works but the pills will NOT do everything. You also take therapy to tackle the issues. I'm almost 100% better and I am loving life. But just because you take a pill doesn't men you will not have to push yourself and go into uncomfortable situations. You'll have to face the fear at some point.

thismomentinblackhistory:Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Just meeting the people you chat with online is a huge thing. I've made it a bit of a hobby to actually find the people who I screw around with. And, by default, that means I'll have to travel some pretty good distances.

broadsword:CutBoard: mutterfark: There is a rather large difference between the kind of shyness you can fix with a little alcohol and a disabling terror of personal interaction.One of the reasons I started Farking was a hope that anonymous interaction would lead to easier "real" interaction. It didn't work. I seem normal when I interact with people, but that's only due to years of practicing coping strategies. I tried the 'have a few drinks' method for years but found I still couldn't speak to women unless I was so drunk I was incoherent. The only way I can talk to women in public is convine myself of their unavailability. In fact, it's bad enough that I rarely post anything but lame attempts at humor even with the anonymity of Fark. Just typing this personal of a response is causing an anxiety reaction.To sum up, in spite of being incomprehensible to most, shyness can be debilitating.

Wrong answer, if your able to type out your thoughts then your able to speak them. You did a real nice try at attempting to be "shy", but, your trying to convince the wrong people. The only one you need to deal with is yourself.

The internet is fairly anonymous in most places and thus is easier for someone to put forward a little bit of themselves they wouldn't do it in person.

Go back to your cave, troll

I'm sorry if you were thinking that I was trolling as that wasn't the intent at all. What you are talking about is one of the worst situations that we deal with today in that a lot of people are so worried about offending someone else that the only way they feel like they can talk to people is anonymously on the internet. Just as someone pointed out earlier, social interaction is a learned ability. I'm sorry that you haven't learned that yet.

ialdabaoth:I'll ask again: if you're successful, and protected against retribution, why is compassion or empathy towards those who are not valuable?

I know very few people that I would consider invaluable to the human race. Being shy, doesn't fit that bill. I do feel compassion and empathise with the people that are shy or introverted. That doesn't mean in any way shape of form that they are invaluable as people. They just need to realize that they are valuable as people and that they might just have something of value to say. That's what the learning process is about in life, they sure don't need to look down upon themselves because they don't think that they don't have something that others can learn from them. I've never met a person that I couldn't learn something from. No matter good or bad.

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier:Just meeting the people you chat with online is a huge thing. I've made it a bit of a hobby to actually find the people who I screw around with. And, by default, that means I'll have to travel some pretty good distances.

It's not really the same thing.

If I understand you correctly you might meet up with say "me" and you don't know me and you really don't care what I think about you but you can say you weren't shy because you chose to meet me.

No, true shyness is much deeper. It's more like I think that girl is cute but I'm scared to go talk to her because I'm sure she'll think I'm some kind of basement dweller. It's not really logical. I can be shy and she'll not notice me or I can go up and talk to her and she'll probably think I'm a basement dweller but she might actually like me - or maybe she'd just view me as a fellow human being.

It really doesn't make sense. A shy person may avoid other people because they might reject them, but by avoiding other people you've automatically been rejected.

To take things to the extreme I could go out to the bars every weekend and ask every woman I see "Wanna fark?" and probably 99% of them would tell me to go to hell, but that 1% might say "Okay!". Meanwhile, that shy person gets 0% of the pussy they didn't feel confident enough to ask for.

chatikh:Social Anxiety Disorder may be controversial, but it's not a conspiracy. Sorry, but people find out about real conspiracies. And it isn't about "guys who can't talk to girls". It's about people who can't talk to anyone.The kind of people who go years without making a single friend. Part of what makes a personality disorder a disorder is when it severely affects that person's mental or physical well-being. If you can reliably diagnose someone with that disorder based on a collective set of symptoms, and then can test those diagnosed for increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death, which you can do with social anxiety disorder, and find that people with the disorder are consistently at a higher risk for all three, then you can reliably call this a personality disorder. Really, I can understand indifference in this issue, but aversion is more harmful to those inflicted than most people can guess. Sort of like the effects of homophobia on gays, causing an increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death.

First time I've ever heard it described as controversial, as if it isn't a real thing. I graduated at the top of my high school class and had plenty of friends in high school, but I was never the social type and despite having a tight circle of five friends, only one was female. In college, I stopped talking to my friends from high school, but made a few friends in the same dorm but would often throw them away, preferring to sit alone in my room. After graduating college, I moved back home and stopped talking to my remaining friends from college, afraid that I would have nothing to talk about and embarrassed that I was so lonely. I had no friends for five years, despite there being plenty of interesting and outgoing people the same age as me at work. I didn't buy clothes or anything for myself, and wouldn't open my mail for months at a time, once going 18 months before I read any of it. I didn't talk to anyone that I didn't know, and would usually mumble anything I had to say. I'm improving now, after one of my friends from high school contacted me out of the blue, but I'm still unable to talk to women and to make friends. I'm not terrified of speaking to strangers, but I still find small talk useless since I am still in the pattern of thinking that I won't be making friends with anybody. I find that my body language is still often awkward and usually evokes 'get me the hell out of here', but I can read myself better and am slowly trying to adjust it. The source of everything since I was young was having an intense fear of rejection. I was verbally abused by my peers from 2nd to 7th grade, usually taunted because I had a lisp. I wasn't physically bullied because I was much smaller than everyone else; always looking at least two years younger. If I tried to speak, I'd be taunted down. Back then, even the nicest people would tell me to my face that I was creepy looking. I knew that I wasn't normal even back then. The earliest I thought of killing myself was in fifth grade. I had gone to the Museum of Natural History earlier in the year, and the chaperone was a classmate's father. On my birthday, I found out that he had died of a heart attack in his sleep, and I blamed myself for killing him. This is obviously turning into a journal entry, but I'm posting anyway to let people know that I am fully aware that all of these thoughts are not normal. They prevent you from having anything but loneliness in your life. I don't appreciate hearing that I'm simply a loser, and have been one since I was a child.

GranoblasticMan:The Stealth Hippopotamus: Here's a little test: If you're at the bar with friends and you don't talk to the pretty girl because you're scared of rejection you dont need a pill. You're huddled in a corner and you've been crying for the last hour because you have to go to the store to buy food, you need a pill.

I want beer. I really want beer. I don't have much to do tonight and I enjoy the taste (as well as the general numbness to emotions that comes with the first half of being drunk). Problem is: I don't have any beer. I've been fighting with myself the past few hours just to convince myself to go out because of my social anxiety. Objectively, I know the reward (yummy tasty beer) is far greater than the risk (a few fleeting seconds of social interaction), but in my mind that risk seems insurmountably daunting.

doczoidberg:The interesting part is that anti anxiety medications often cause sexual dysfunction.

SO, someone takes an anxiety med to get chicks, and then can't get off if he manages to get one in the sack.

Oh, irony. How I love you.

During orientation when I did my volunteer thing at the state mental hospital the educators said that patients masturbate because they don't know if their equipment works anymore due to the side effects of their meds.

evilboyevil:chatikh: Social Anxiety Disorder may be controversial, but it's not a conspiracy. Sorry, but people find out about real conspiracies. And it isn't about "guys who can't talk to girls". It's about people who can't talk to anyone.The kind of people who go years without making a single friend. Part of what makes a personality disorder a disorder is when it severely affects that person's mental or physical well-being. If you can reliably diagnose someone with that disorder based on a collective set of symptoms, and then can test those diagnosed for increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death, which you can do with social anxiety disorder, and find that people with the disorder are consistently at a higher risk for all three, then you can reliably call this a personality disorder. Really, I can understand indifference in this issue, but aversion is more harmful to those inflicted than most people can guess. Sort of like the effects of homophobia on gays, causing an increased risk of mental harm, physical harm, or death.

First time I've ever heard it described as controversial, as if it isn't a real thing. I graduated at the top of my high school class and had plenty of friends in high school, but I was never the social type and despite having a tight circle of five friends, only one was female. In college, I stopped talking to my friends from high school, but made a few friends in the same dorm but would often throw them away, preferring to sit alone in my room. After graduating college, I moved back home and stopped talking to my remaining friends from college, afraid that I would have nothing to talk about and embarrassed that I was so lonely. I had no friends for five years, despite there being plenty of interesting and outgoing people the same age as me at work. I didn't buy clothes or anything for myself, and wouldn't open my mail for months at a time, once going 18 months before I read any of it. I didn't talk to anyone that I didn't know, and would us ...

I can personally relate to some of what you said because I've been there.and experienced it. Not everything, but those that I can't personally relate to have other things which I've experienced in my own life.

When people in Washington talk about improving mental health care I sort of get my hopes up for a minute or two and then I realize they don't want to help people with mental problems like you or me, they just want to identify the ones which will go on shooting rampages which is definitely not me and I doubt you are one of those either.

Guys have trouble talking to chicks because they have trouble talking to people. Learn to start and maintain conversations with random strangers first, then it will be easy to have conversations with the random strangers in to whom you want to stick your dick.

Talking to people is a learned skill, some people never got or never gave themselves the opportunity to practice.

Then combine that with a healthy dose of stop giving a shiat what other people think then the shyest dude will be on his way to getting laid.

Xcott:Kuroshin: And yet, here we are. A nation where NASCAR and McDonald's are king, and rampant obesity due to over-indulgence is the norm. Yup, it truly is a 'just' world. These are obviously the cutting edge of Humanity. 'Murrica, fark yeah!

Wait, NASCAR? What does NASCAR have to do with the world being just or unjust? Does NASCAR involve torturing babies?

The second-lowest form of racing, only requiring slightly more driving skill than NHRA drag racing, providing zero advancements in mechanical engineering, and demanding the least possible attention from its fans is the number one motorsport in the US. If you can't find the irony in people who believe in a just world, believing themselves to be premier among the world, while being the least intellectually and physically active, I can't help you.

RembrandtQEinstein:Guys have trouble talking to chicks because they have trouble talking to people. Learn to start and maintain conversations with random strangers first, then it will be easy to have conversations with the random strangers in to whom you want to stick your dick.

Talking to people is a learned skill, some people never got or never gave themselves the opportunity to practice.

Then combine that with a healthy dose of stop giving a shiat what other people think then the shyest dude will be on his way to getting laid.

Not even close to being true. Talking to random people does not trigger the same emotional or psychological response as talking to someone you find attractive. Not. Even. Close.

It became an "Illness" because to get insurance to pay for it you have to be labeled with a "disorder" or pay lots of money out of your pocket. For some people their "shyness" does inhibit their day to day life (won't talk to anyone to get a job, etc) and really do need help.

However, for "shyness" saying "Here's some pills have a nice day" isn't going to "cure" you. You'll need cognitive-behavioral therapy and social skills classes like this to help you learn the ropes.

Social Skills are just like regular skills, you need to use them or you lose them. Some people pick these up naturally and others need more help.

That being said, I do feel like we're trying to force people into a very narrow definition of what "normal" is, not everyone is an extrovert and as long as they can interface with the world enough to hold down a decent job and feel fairly comfortable in their life it isn't a problem.

/I kinda want to take this guy's class I feel that my social skills are slipping.

Kuroshin:Xcott: Kuroshin: And yet, here we are. A nation where NASCAR and McDonald's are king, and rampant obesity due to over-indulgence is the norm. Yup, it truly is a 'just' world. These are obviously the cutting edge of Humanity. 'Murrica, fark yeah!

Wait, NASCAR? What does NASCAR have to do with the world being just or unjust? Does NASCAR involve torturing babies?

The second-lowest form of racing, only requiring slightly more driving skill than NHRA drag racing, providing zero advancements in mechanical engineering, and demanding the least possible attention from its fans is the number one motorsport in the US.

Why does it matter whether a sport or competitive event provides advancements in engineering, or demands a great deal of attention from spectators? Is the Olympic 100-meter dash some sort of low point for humanity, because they don't use hoverskates and you don't have to pay very close attention to keep track of it?

I think you're confusing the concepts of "unjust" and "too mundane for my snobby tastes." There's nothing about a football game or a NASCAR race or meal at Applebee's that is inherently unjust, or an indictment of humanity---except to hypercritical people who have a huge hangup about anything too mainstream.