April 9, 2013

The nurse — who'd been "handed a 18- to 24-inch-long newborn in a glass pan by an assistant who asked for her help" — said she was "so 'freaked out' that she left the room and did not know what happened to the baby."

Abortionist Dr. Kermit Gosnell doesn't understand why, if the idea was to kill the babies, he's being tried for murder for killing the babies.

Covering the story would require news organizations to answer that question... and they might accidentally end up implying that maybe it wasn't okay to kill the babies to start with.

What I found troubling, but not at all surprising, was accounts by at least one teenager that she was dragged there against her will by her mother and grandmother and then when she told Gosnell she didn't want an abortion he wrestled her down and drugged her and gave her an abortion.

I don't understand why pro-choice people have the illusion that they need to protect the right of 13 year olds to have an abortion without parental consent and free of parental coercion... but never ever worry about protecting the right of a woman to be free of coercion by parents or partners to have the baby aborted.

combined with the recent PP spokeswoman who at public hearing said that PP opposed any laws that protected newborns at abortion clinics.

What is really sad, is that there is zero surplus of healthy babies of any race in the adoption queues in this country. We're not Catholic, and my wife used to donate to NARAL. Though no longer. Each time we drive by the local Catholic Church, we see the signs encouraging girls to consider giving up babies for adoption. Whether or not you support abortion, the Catholic's money is aligned with their faith. Consistency is good...

I logged into althouse to see what was happening. I clicked onto this and literally dropped my tablet. Only now have I stopped crying long enough to post this. I just don't know what to say. Words fail me.

There has GOT to be a special circle of hell. Please there must be. Come on Ritmo , come on Ritmo!!! Tell us again how we can't tell the difference between a zygote and a baby. Come on he of the absurd comparisons who phrases every argument in the extreme ends of the spectrum. It's safe now, I promise to not respond. Have your piece.

CWJ: I know what you mean. I've been following the trial and have had disturbing dreams about the details I've reada few times, and I generally don't remember dreams, though a bad sleeper, so this is unusual. So upsetting, just debauched.

This woman, Alisa Lapolt Snow, has no fundamental disagreement with Dr. Gosnell:

If a child is born alive following a botched abortion, should the abortionist be required to try to save its life? According to a Planned Parenthood lobbyist, the child’s right to life after birth should also be a matter of choice.

Alisa Lapolt Snow, the lobbyist representing the Florida Alliance of Planned Parenthood Affiliates, testified before the Florida House this week to oppose a law requiring abortionists to provide care for babies born alive during botched abortions in the most stark terms possible.

Rep. Jim Boyd, a member of the Civil Justice Subcommittee, gave ample warning that Planned Parenthood’s position sounded callous and inhuman.“It’s just really hard for me to even ask you this question, because I’m almost in disbelief,” he said.

“If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?”

“We believe that any decision that’s made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician,” Snow replied.

Also note that 98% of Planned Parenthood's services to pregnant women are abortions.

Mark Steyn has been writing about Gosnell's charnel house from the beginning of the case.

What I remember most about Steyn's articles is this...

Every single incident of anything the left dislikes is symptomatic of a widespread social problem that demands immediate government intervention. Thus, each school shooting represents a dramatic social problem that pervades the entire society.

Stories like the Gosnall abattoir that impinge unfavorably on the leftist worldview are always set aside by leftists as single incidents unrelated to anything.

So, the Gosnell story says nothing about the practice of abortion. It's just an isolated incident.

Tom Ridge [Repub] then Ed Rendell [far left Dem] were the governors during Gosnell's prime moneymaking years.

And Drill Sgt is right, the word went out [likely with no paper trail] that Gosnell was not to be inspected nor audited. His clinic was last inspected when Ridge was still governor and he left office around 2002 or 2003.

Libruls claim this has not become a national news story because cameras are not allowed in court in Pennsylvania. That is their current rationale anyway. They my be right about that - I hear the women in the office yacking daily about the latest femme fatale but not the Gosnell story which is almost in our back yard.

Libruls claim this has not become a national news story because cameras are not allowed in court in Pennsylvania. That is their current rationale anyway. They my be right about that - I hear the women in the office yacking daily about the latest femme fatale but not the Gosnell story which is almost in our back yard.

Abortion and feminism both presented a distorted vision of the past contrived for propaganda purposes.

Women were never "oppressed." That formulation was pure bullshit. This corrupt language was borrowed from the black civil rights movement in order to convey the notion that women were suffering some sort of injustice similar to what blacks suffered under Jim Crow.

It was all a lie.

My reading of literature tells me that the pre Roe v. Wade depiction of abortion by feminists was also just a pack of self-serving lies.

When our daddies told us that women are prone to hysterical drama and lying, we men should have listened. Our daddies were trying to tell us an unpalatable truth.

Some months ago, Ann posted a blog contending that abortion was murder but was nevertheless acceptable. I don't recall if the post got into any details -- its point was that 'pro choice' advocates should confront the reality of the procedure and skip the anodyne obfuscations. She didn't refer to this case, but it brings home the necessity of getting past slogans, especially for the pro choice side, that serve only to obscure the terrible reality.

With all the black-on-everything violence in our society, does this really surprise anyone? The same type of people who would shoot a baby in the face, would also cut up viable babies in the womb and out of the womb.

chickelit - They actually started investigating him because of illegal drug sales. They might have had something going for that one death, but apparently they didn't go onto the property until they were investigating the drug thing and then saw the conditions and freaked.

Inga, the law of the nation is that a woman may choose to abort a child. The child has no vote. The father has no vote. The society has no vote.

I understand that there are many reasons why women might exercise that lawful choice. I just think that everyone should be clear that the choice involves ending a human life. We have coarsened our society by pretending that it is not. Your apparently sincere puzzlement at my statement is evidence of how deeply this coarsening is embedded, as you are not in most respects a coarse person.

"sane_voter said...With all the black-on-everything violence in our society, does this really surprise anyone? The same type of people who would shoot a baby in the face, would also cut up viable babies in the womb and out of the womb."

SV, abortion on demand is the creation of the white elite, which is still the most aggressive and effective defender. There are voices in the black community who remind that this white creation has ended 15-20 million black lives since Roe v. Wade. These voices are systematically suppressed.

Rationalization of abortion has meant an elective and coerced genocide of around 50 million human lives in America alone. That's some kind of choice. There will undoubtedly be consequences for everyone when society devalues human life.

David, I HAVE said it was murder of a human life, several times, same as Althouse. There was a survey in which ( Althouse blogged it) roughly 30% of those being surveyed believe abortion is immoral, but they are not in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade. I go even further and say abortion should be limited to the first trimester. This is at least the FIFTH time I've stated this on Althouse.

IIRC the international health organization stipulates that a gasp from the fetus is a live birth. To our credit, the US is one of the few nations that uses this criterion as a definition of a live birth.

As for Gosnell? hanging, drawing and quartering him would be too good for him.

The idea, when your opposition is in supra-high dudgeon, shock and horror, is to adopt a posture of incredulity. "What? Whatever are you so concerned about? What's wrong with you, that this bothers you so?"

"It's an emotional issue, yes." (ergo, you're a weak person for being concerned; it's evident that we Übermenschen who can handle these things will have to make decisions in the absence of any presence of mind on your part...)

No? Look at the history of this administration's chutzpah. It's a Chicago thing. And if the reader was dumb enough to vote for Obama and doesn't understand how this kind of contempt of the ruled masses works yet...

I'm just cynical enough to wonder if that might be why pretty much *nobody* wanted to make this trial a national issue. Because, you know, on account of--well, various confused partisan stuff & etc. Shit does get hard, after all. (And the fact that it gets even harder, later, before it dissipates, often gets lost in the shuffle.)

rasqual: You're part of the problem, the reframing and inflaming. What you said was obvious isn't necessarily obvious (assuming that you actually care, as a core notion, about the issue of abortion, for example). Maybe it will work here at Althouse; maybe it won't. Maybe it will work "out there"; maybe it won't. Maybe it will work in localities; maybe it won't. My preference is that your personal, indulgent default doesn't derail actual change, including that which might actually benefit the goal you supposedly are trying to reach, and fancy that.

Why is it that you're so determined to state as impossible your own goal?

When authorities raided Gosnell's clinic in 2010 they found squalid conditions: blood on the floor, the stench of urine and a flea-infested cat wandering through the facility.

In court, Gosnell's attorney said his client is unfairly being held to standards one might expect at the Mayo Clinic. A jury will decide Gosnell's fate, but what is clear now is that state regulators were not doing their job.NPR story

I'm not sure what PA's late term abortion laws are or were over the past years but I suspect Gosnell violated them -- aside from the live birth murders.

Above and beyond the appalling "clinic", what I fear also happened here was a willful look askance by regulatory authorities. Whether that gets looked into should be another job for watchdog journalist. You'd think that even if they were die-hard late term abortion supporters they'd be interested in the welfare of the women involved.

Somebody knows whether Gosnell's clinic is an isolated atrocity; if not, somebody knows where else to look for these abuses (probably Gosnell himself in a sick "I know who my competition is" way). Probably, this has also been asked and answered in depositions.

"Libruls claim this has not become a national news story because cameras are not allowed in court in Pennsylvania. That is their current rationale anyway"

That's an odd justification. Reporters are allowed into the courtrooms and the cameras are allowed in the lobby; I see them all the time. There is plenty of video footage and copy available from affiliates if national newspapers and networks wanted to present the story.

"Libruls claim this has not become a national news story because cameras are not allowed in court in Pennsylvania. That is their current rationale anyway"

That's an odd justification. Reporters are allowed into the courtrooms and the cameras are allowed in the lobby; I see them all the time. There is plenty of video footage and copy available from affiliates if national newspapers and networks wanted to present the story.

The grand jury report said that one look at the place would have detected the problems, but the Pennsylvania Department of Health hadn't inspected the place since 1993. Here's the grand jury report, in surprisingly strong language:

The Pennsylvania Department of Health abruptly decided, for political reasons, to stop inspecting abortion clinics at all. The politics in question were not anti-abortion, but pro. With the change of administration from Governor Casey to Governor Ridge, officials concluded that inspections would be "putting a barrier up to women" seeking abortions.

So if a baby screams in an abortion clinic and the media doesn't cover it, did the baby make a sound?

The abortion rights coalition had to work hard to discredit the 11 week old fetus's silent scream in the video released back in the 1980s.The last thing they want is to have to try to explain away audible screams from older fetuses.

Inga wrote:David, I HAVE said it was murder of a human life, several times, same as Althouse. There was a survey in which ( Althouse blogged it) roughly 30% of those being surveyed believe abortion is immoral, but they are not in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade. I go even further and say abortion should be limited to the first trimester. This is at least the FIFTH time I've stated this on Althouse.

But you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. That is not the pro choice position. If you don't want to overurn Roe v Wade, can you limit, by law, abortions to the first trimester only?Pro life republicans get the full war on women shtick from pro choicers if they try to limit LATE term abortions. I can imagine if they tried to limit it to first trimester. And my guess, is you'd be on the side of the pro choicers. As you have been up till now.

So, you may talk the talk buy you dont walk the walk. And you don't even really talk the talk.

From what I've read, pduggie, the grand jury concluded that the lack of oversight began under Ridge's Democratic successor. What I wonder is where is Corbett in all of this? Why hasn't the grand jury's report led to an investigation of the lack of oversight? If someone at rhe top told the Department of Health to stop inspecting abortion clinics, I imagine there was an attempt at plausible deniability....but so far I haven't even heard anyone asking the question.

I am not sure Democrats could rape and pimp minors without a nice, convenient, efficient way to get rid of the evidence, and as such Gosnell ought to be praised for what he does by Democrats who are too busy raping and pimping to erase the evidence pain-free themselves.

We Republicans own David Duke eh? Pat Robertson somehow speaks for me whenever he says something retarded. Some with Buchanan. Jared Fucking Loughner is a goddamed fucking Tea Party Patriot, perhaps, is speculated on air.

You evil fuck Democrats own this and every other murdered soul because of Roe v. Wade's allowance of your lack of decency and the obliteration of the rule of law with regards to "life."

You Obama voters claimed Mitt Romney's a bad guy because he bullied someone three decades ago, and left his dog in a carrier on top of his vehicle,and us Republicans should be ashamed of these actions to the extent we deem him unworthy of the office of POTUS, yet this Democrat murders countless souls and he doesn't exist in the minds of 97.34% of the country.

No need to spend days and weeks acknowledging how and why this doctor, who acted on Obama's infanticide bill Obama supported in that shithole of a corruptacracy IL, was able to do what is being done, because fuck me.

You Obama voters claimed Mitt Romney's a bad guy because he bullied someone three decades ago, and left his dog in a carrier on top of his vehicle,and us Republicans should be ashamed of these actions to the extent we deem him unworthy of the office of POTUS, yet this Democrat murders countless souls and he doesn't exist in the minds of 97.34% of the country.

No need to spend days and weeks acknowledging how and why this doctor, who acted on Obama's infanticide bill Obama supported in that shithole of a corruptacracy IL, was able to do what is being done, because fuck me.

Agree with this but I think even more pertinent examples would be the Tiller murder (all prolifers held responsible) and mass shootings where the NRA is responsible. Yet in this horrific case of murdering newborn babies, the left looks the other way and pretends it was an isolated case of a warped individual.

The reason it's important to highlight this is that it shows a way forward- decent individuals can recognize this lapse and demand full accountability for all who enabled Gosnell's shop of horrors to perform these evil acts.

rcommal wrote: Why the hell would you, how the hell do you, demand stuff of folks you've spent the better part of a decade and a more destroying? You hate journalists. You hate newspapers. You hate journalism.

Perhaps it is personal for me. My father admired journals and tried to pass that on to me but I rebelled. Anyways, thanks for the splash of cold water.

"But he said he believed the intentions of his boss were honest and that the doctor believed he was helping the women, often extremely poor, who came to him."

This is the true legacy of hard-line pro-choice activists. This "House of Horrors" was made possible by the relentless preaching that unrestricted access to abortion is not only good for women, but an essential component of their independence and freedom as a woman.

"But he said he believed the intentions of his boss were honest and that the doctor believed he was helping the women, often extremely poor, who came to him."

This is the true legacy of hard-line pro-choice activists. This "House of Horrors" was made possible by the relentless preaching that unrestricted access to abortion is not only good for women, but an essential component of their independence and freedom as a woman.

@kentuckyliz: to date, at least, it seems that abortion is still defined by the killing taking place within the mother's body. The only reason the acts performed by Gosnell and his staff didn't meet the legal standard is that they actively promoted death of the babies after they came out of the birth canal. Of course proting their death by neglect is A-OK by some folks, too...just spare them the scissors and let em die on their own.

What's oviuos, too, is that Gosnell and staff couldn't comprehend why it mattered that they were doing this after birth (Gosnell apparently did know because he tried to convince the staff members who questioned it that the babies were already dead....but still he clearly knew the difference and decided that the distinction didn't matter.)

And this is one of many reasons that the prochoice media can't cover this story. Because every other normal person would also feel that the distinction of location doesn't make any sense, and they would decide in favor of not doing this to any of the babies. Splitting leggal hairs over the justication of murder on the basis of a woman's bodily autonomy doesn't hold up to normal persons' repulsion at these heinous acts.

The word "fetus," from the Latin, actually means "newly delivered." Both the ancient Greeks and the Romans killed newborns all the time. They would abandon the baby to die. The justification for this is that a baby is not viable. She can't feed herself or shelter herself. You had no obligation to feed a crying baby, and thus you would not be charged with murder for abandoning one. This procedure, by the way, was often referred to as an "abortion."

For 2000 years, Judeo-Christianity made infanticide illegal. We recognized the equality of all people, even helpless babies.

So consider what Roe v. Wade did. It's like we time warped 2000 years in the past. Babies lost their humanity, their status as human beings with moral worth. They were defined as non-persons, as sub-human, as property. The ancient pagan word "fetus" was used to complete the dehumanization. The viability doctrine was used as justification. The baby cannot survive, hence it is right to kill her. And these rules were dictated to us by unelected rulers.

It's okay to get mad at Dr. Gosnell. But, truly, it is our authorities who created him, who nourished him, who protected him. Save a little of your anger and outrage for them.

Aristotle's thinking derived from his three-stage theory of life: vegetable, animal, rational. The vegetable stage was reached at conception, the animal at "animation," and the rational soon after live birth

Arguably, then, the Supreme Court is dehumanizing newborns as well as the unborn. Certainly nobody in Carhart or Carhart II argued that a partially born child is a person.

So the Supreme Court invites this jury to not apply the murder statutes. And--since the judge cleared out all the pro-lifers during jury selection--we will see if any member of the jury decides to expand Roe to include a right to abort newborns.

I haven't red all of the comments but the one from CWJ early on that caught my eye. It dealt with breaking down and crying over what was in the news report. I then looked at CWJ's profile and noticed that whoever it is joined in early 2012. What CWJ might have missed is that back then there was a link to an online copy of the Grand Jury's report. For those that didn't see that report then here is a link to it now:http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf

What was in the news report is nothing compared to what is in the Grand Jury Report.

I don't understand why pro-choice people have the illusion that they need to protect the right of 13 year olds to have an abortion without parental consent...

What's even more damning, of course, is that it's usually statutory rape to have sex with a 13-year-old girl. So what you often have is a rapist who is paying for the abortion to cover up his crime.

An outfit called Life Dynamics did a sting operation on Planned Parenthood, kind of like what 60 Minutes or 20/20 likes to do. The tapes are pretty shocking. The people who work at Planned Parenthood seem to feel no responsibility for reporting the rape of children to the authorities.

“You can be 10 years old and walk in and get a pregnancy test and nobody has to tell anybody.”

I'd bet there are quite a few more Dr. Gosnell's out there that we don't know about yet.

One of the briefs filed in Carhart includes an interview with a woman who witnessed the murder of two newborns in an abortion clinic.

The brief contains transcripts from 20/20 and Life Dynamics. In the Life Dynamics interview, they are talking with a woman named "Kelly." She seems very credible (i.e. clearly knows what she is talking about). She worked for a company who picked up cadavers from abortion clinics in order to sell the bodies to science researchers. The whole interview is available at the link, but here is the relevant part...

“Well, when I was working, there was an incident that came my way, and my staff’s way, that there was a set of twins, at 24 weeks gestation, brought back to us. These twins were both in pan and they were both alive. Meaning that there was maybe just a couple of nicks from the tongs that had pulled them out. But these fetuses, were moving and gasping for air. And the doctor came back and basically looked at us and said, got you some good specimens, twins. And I looked at him and said, there’s something wrong here. They are moving. I don’t do this. This is not in my contract.”

LDI: “So they just brought you these babies and said, here, do whatever you want with them?”

KELLY: “That’s correct. And I told him I would not be any part of extinguishing their lives. So he basically got a bottle of sterile water and poured it in the pans until the fluid ran up to their mouths and nose and basically let them drown themselves, which didn’t take very long. And I did not stay in the room to watch that. I left the room, because I would not watch those fetuses moving.”

LDI: “So he basically--I mean not basically--what he did do was kill those babies outside the mother’s womb?”

KELLY: “That’s correct.”

LDI: “After they’d been born?”

KELLY: “That’s correct. And then we, staff, did procure fetal tissue from those, under protest.”

LDI: “Do you know how long it took those babies to die?”

KELLY: “No, because we left the room. I would not watch. And that’s basically when I decided that it was wrong. Basically, I--I did not want to be there when that happened.”