Kind of funny how King dedicates the book to Marvel and has Jae Lee as the artist...

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Kind of funny how King dedicates the book to Marvel and has Jae Lee as the artist...

...when the story pretty much wipes the comics out of continuity.

Spoiler:

The character of Maerlyn is easily the Big Bad of the DT universe in the comics, here he's friendly and akin to the actual Arthurian one. He's also enemies of the Crimson King and Walter, the latter of which he's unaware that he's his father(!). I guess you could say that the story is unreliable, though given that it's a "legend".

The idea of Marten knowing that Gabrielle will be shot by Roland also changes the concept from the comics, where Marten is planning on Roland shooting his father instead but his jealous sister/lover the Grapefruit (ugh) rigs it so that Roland shoots Gabrielle instead.

Plus as has been stated elsewhere in the comics Roland is imprisoned after his mother's death and Steven dies soon after so there's little room for Roland to be sent on his quest.

Ooh! Does it? I've just started it* so I won't click the 'Show' button on your post just yet. Mind you it mildly contradicts Wizard and Glass too as

Spoiler:

Roland still doesn't have his father's guns. (Mind you, I prefer this version. If Steven Deschain is still a highly accomplished gunslinger and the dinh at that, why would he pass on his guns just like that? Unless I read WaG wrong.)

I do know everything in the comics after the return to Gilead seemed to happen that much quicker but I took that as a bit of poetic licence. A snapshot of events if you like, all which happened but over a longer period of time in the 'real' world. I tend to see the comics more as an account by another observer which might not be entirely accurate anyway. (I.e if it contradicts, disregard it.) Or yet another world

Spoiler:

or cycle.

Anyway, I'll be interested to see what that spoiler is when I've finished the novel. I'm juggling a couple of novels at the moment so will get through this a bit slower than normal. I'm glad. I don't want it to be over too quickly. Very enjoyable so far.

*Well... I say 'just' I've already finished Part 1 of Roland's 'Skin Man' back-story so I'm around a 1/4-1/3 way through.

Okay, I finished the novel last night (I read through these things way too quicky, I need to pace myself more), so I can look at your spoilers now...

Originally Posted by CyberGhostface

...when the story pretty much wipes the comics out of continuity.

Spoiler:

The character of Maerlyn is easily the Big Bad of the DT universe in the comics, here he's friendly and akin to the actual Arthurian one. He's also enemies of the Crimson King and Walter, the latter of which he's unaware that he's his father(!). I guess you could say that the story is unreliable, though given that it's a "legend".

... and I thought you'd mention that!

Yes, that was interesting wasn't it?

Spoiler:

Of course Robin Furth's version could be described as a legend too... so this version of Maerlyn could actually be the real one. The widow's mention of 'those who believe Maerlyn turned to evil' shows that there are disparate legends surrounding Maerlyn in Mid-World, much as there are in our world.

Personally I think I prefer this version of Maerlyn being a White Wizard. Don't get me wrong, I liked Furth's 'humanoid demon' version, but I couldn't help thinking he seemed rather a more powerful version of Walter. It's nice having a good counterpart. Or not really a counterpart I guess, as his power far exceeds that of Walter.

I am curious about the relationship between the two wizards though. Furth states in her back-word to The Sorceror, that Walter's origin story actually comes from King! Of course, good characters in King's books are rarely that pure, even do pretty bad things, and it's quite possible Maerlyn got a bit frisky with a (literal) lady of the night who turned out to be supernatural herself. It seems he has a history of sampling the juice. I wonder if King just changed his mind concerning Maerlyn though? I hope not.

I do wonder if Maerlyn did actually drift over to the dark side for a while. What was his actual relationship with the Wizard's Rainbow, for example?

Incidentally, it's ever mentioned that Walter is unaware Maerlyn is his father. If he knew, he's not likely to bring it up. Actually, I think he'd get a bit of a kick out of his poor da as a giant pussy stuck in a big cage. I wouldn't be surprised if the lad's question concerning 'what did Maerlyn eat?' (which occurred to me as well) could be answered by Walter. He probably brought the meat himself, chuckling all awhile.

I do wonder how much of The Wind Through the Keyhole is meant to be taken as actual history in that world, and how much is just a legend. The style of storytelling seems pretty close to how the other stuff is told, and a certain man in Black has quite a major role. Of course, such a being could create legends of his own, but there are certain elements in those sections which suggests he was took part in a historical event. Having him use a gearstick from a Ford Dodge as a magic wand seems out of place in an old legend of Mid-World, but then again, it's not like we've read that many.

Spoiler:

The idea of Marten knowing that Gabrielle will be shot by Roland also changes the concept from the comics, where Marten is planning on Roland shooting his father instead but his jealous sister/lover the Grapefruit (ugh) rigs it so that Roland shoots Gabrielle instead.

Good point. I'd forgotten about that.

Spoiler:

I also wonder about the 'poison knife plot' which Gabriell was supposedly embroiled in, which is mentioned in both the novels and the comics. It would seem from the letters that, if Walter roped her into that, it was later than as suggested by the comics, but that's unclear.

Spoiler:

Plus as has been stated elsewhere in the comics Roland is imprisoned after his mother's death and Steven dies soon after so there's little room for Roland to be sent on his quest.

Much as I liked the comics, I'm starting to wonder if we should take much of them with a pinch of salt. Heh. But then we come back to the dedication which you mention in the title of this thread. I guess King is happy enough with their work, but doesn't feel bound to it if he has other ideas.

Nah, I dont think it wipes the comics from continuity. For one thing, Roland says this in Wizard and Glass:

"....I must put my past to rest as best I may. There's no way I could tell you all of it - in my world even the past is in motion, rearranging itself in many vital ways - but this one story may stand for all the rest."

Any contradictions are therefore already covered even if you cant think of anything that reconciles them (although I've found you almost surely can).

Spoiler:

The idea of Marten knowing that Gabrielle will be shot by Roland also changes the concept from the comics, where Marten is planning on Roland shooting his father instead but his jealous sister/lover the Grapefruit (ugh) rigs it so that Roland shoots Gabrielle instead.

The fact that Marten knows Gabrielle will be shot by Roland if she's there does imply Marten was planning the whole thing actually.

Plus as has been stated elsewhere in the comics Roland is imprisoned after his mother's death and Steven dies soon after so there's little room for Roland to be sent on his quest.

I've just re-read everything and the timeline does fit if you bear in mind the following. We know from Wizard and Glass that the events in Mejis take place over a period of months. We also know from the comic book adaption, The Gunslinger Born, that many of these events we see in the novel take place off panel in the comic and that sometimes even quite large gaps of time pass between one panel and the next.

Logically, the same applies to all the other comic arcs too. For example, we know from the novels it takes Cort nine weeks to die after being poisoned. This means that between some pages and panels of the comic, entire weeks go by. In such a way, we can place events we dont see in the comics within these sections of missing time. The events of The Wind Through the Keyhole seem to fit best between pages 7 and 8 (with Steven and co traveling back to Gilead on page 7, Corts death beginning on page 8 ) of issue 3 of Fall of Gilead.

In this gap, Steven and co have arrived back in Gilead, Roland has been released from jail and been visiting Cort, his father has summoned him to get the skin-man while the "official" published version of Gabrielle's death (suicide) is going the rounds, Cuthbert's dead father is being prepared for Cuthberts viewing, the skin-man is killed, Roland goes back to Gilead, Cort dies, the official version of Gabrielle's death is now beginning to be scoffed at by the common people, and Roland is locked up again in preparation for a public trial to appease the public. Etc.

Now, the biggest surprise of Wind was Maerlyn's appearance:

The character of Maerlyn is easily the Big Bad of the DT universe in the comics, here he's friendly and akin to the actual Arthurian one. He's also enemies of the Crimson King and Walter, the latter of which he's unaware that he's his father(!). I guess you could say that the story is unreliable, though given that it's a "legend".

This portrayal of Maerlyn is interesting even compared to the other novels, where Maerlyn has a sinister reputation, has his own Rainbow of magical evil spheres, and where the utterly evil Flagg is often mistaken for Maerlyn. None of this seemed to even hint at a "good" Maerlyn. Then the comics came out and made a lot of sense in regard to the character. Wind's version of Maerlyn doesn't quite fit in with the "rogue wizard" version we hear about in the other novels and especially the comics.

I've come to believe there are simply two Maerlyn's abroad in Mid-World, one good and one evil. Twinners, one born from the Outer Dark and the other from the White. The version in Wind does have an addition to his name to differentiate between them it seems - in Wind, he is called Maerlyn Eld and Maerlyn of the Eld.

This seems to work in much the same way that there appears to be two John Farsons in the series, the real one that started as a harrier and became a revolutionary and Flagg/Walter's facet of John Farson, imitating the real one. As such, Maerlyn Prim (as I'll call the comic version) is the original and later, during Arthur Eld's reign, Maerlyn Eld arose to oppose him. You can imagine that Maerlyn Eld eventually vanquishes Maerlyn Prim and, his job complete, retires to the former Maerlyn Prim's Cave.

Thus, as the Flagg/Farson relationship confuses the people of Mid-World, so too does the Maerlyn twinners. No ones sure of anything. Even the reader .

It's also worth remembering that the comics are still ongoing. All it takes is one back story in a forthcoming comic to explain the reason for these differences .

Nah, I dont think it wipes the comics from continuity. For one thing, Roland says this in Wizard and Glass:

"....I must put my past to rest as best I may. There's no way I could tell you all of it - in my world even the past is in motion, rearranging itself in many vital ways - but this one story may stand for all the rest."

Any contradictions are therefore already covered even if you cant think of anything that reconciles them (although I've found you almost surely can).

If that's King's excuse then it's a pretty big cop out and makes little if any sense. I mean we aren't talking about discrepancies like Roland's guns or even the names of his grandfather (which has changed, mind you) or even information 'trickling' to Roland (like him suddenly knowing about the Crimson King as a child while being clueless before). These are major deviations that can't be reconciled. There is simply no way for example that Marten could be aware of Gabrielle's death long in advance (and Gabrielle being aware as well) while at the same time planning for Roland to kill his father and be shocked when that doesn't happen because a jealous succubi intervened.

Or (assuming that Tim's story is true, which I think it is) that Maerlyn is a benevolent wizard in one story while some near omnipotent force of evil in the other. We're talking about entire existence shifting at whims. I imagine Maerlyn in TWTTK wouldn't be responsible for all of the evils of the world as his comic counterpart was, so the entire origins of the Crimson King, Jonas, Rhea and Walter would all be different with each passing moment. One moment he's training Walter in the ways of darkness, the other he's Walter's foil.

This is the same story where Roland preventing Jake from being sent to Midworld nearly tore his mind in half trying to reconcile the two different outcomes of Jake's fate. If Roland's past shifted egregiously as this such an event should have had little effect.

A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.

If that's King's excuse then it's a pretty big cop out and makes little if any sense. I mean we aren't talking about discrepancies like Roland's guns or even the names of his grandfather (which has changed, mind you) or even information 'trickling' to Roland (like him suddenly knowing about the Crimson King as a child while being clueless before). These are major deviations that can't be reconciled. There is simply no way for example that Marten could be aware of Gabrielle's death long in advance (and Gabrielle being aware as well) while at the same time planning for Roland to kill his father and be shocked when that doesn't happen because a jealous succubi intervened.

Or (assuming that Tim's story is true, which I think it is) that Maerlyn is a benevolent wizard in one story while some near omnipotent force of evil in the other. We're talking about entire existence shifting at whims. I imagine Maerlyn in TWTTK wouldn't be responsible for all of the evils of the world as his comic counterpart was, so the entire origins of the Crimson King, Jonas, Rhea and Walter would all be different with each passing moment. One moment he's training Walter in the ways of darkness, the other he's Walter's foil.

This is the same story where Roland preventing Jake from being sent to Midworld nearly tore his mind in half trying to reconcile the two different outcomes of Jake's fate. If Roland's past shifted egregiously as this such an event should have had little effect.

Yes. I didn't see the 'past shifting' as a way of sorting out those contradicitons either. In hindsight, after reading Book VIII I thought it might be an early indication of the

Spoiler:

twist at the end of the final book.

But I don't see it to mean that characters totally changed from one thing to another.

Maerlyn's depiction in this book did make me wonder if King actually reads Furth's back-stories. I understand that the comics are authorised by him, so presumably if he's not happy with parts, it should get changed. I wonder if that just relates to the comic itself, though. Or if he prefers to just take a more hands off approach. I know that's the case with film depictions of his work.

In one of the introductions to the series (I recall it from the Revised and Expanded edition of The Gunslinger), King mentioned that he liked the marvelous sense of dislocation seen in some of the old spaghetti Westerns. Maybe he had that in mind and jacked it up to 19 when he was figuring out what to do with Maerlyn.

Its possible that Maerlyn had a change of heart after doing his work on Walter Paddick and went into seclusion as pennance for his deeds. Maybe after Walter obtained Black 13 or the other glasses of the Wizards' Rainbow, he became to powerful for Maerlyn to deal with.

I have not yet read the comics, at first mainly because I was afraid things just wouln't jive. But after I saw jericho hill came out I really wanted to start them, just have not got around to it. After finishing WTTK I wondered about the now "Good Maerlyn" and how it didn't seem to fit with what I thought I knew. I came to the decision that maybe bad Maerlyn was just Flagg/Marten pretending to be Maerlyn messing with people's heads which he seems to like to do. Marten seemed to like that people thought he was Maerlyn. But in hearing that the comics have an even more detail of Maerlyn's evil past I am unsure of how I feel about it.

If that's King's excuse then it's a pretty big cop out and makes little if any sense. I mean we aren't talking about discrepancies like Roland's guns or even the names of his grandfather (which has changed, mind you) or even information 'trickling' to Roland (like him suddenly knowing about the Crimson King as a child while being clueless before). These are major deviations that can't be reconciled. There is simply no way for example that Marten could be aware of Gabrielle's death long in advance (and Gabrielle being aware as well) while at the same time planning for Roland to kill his father and be shocked when that doesn't happen because a jealous succubi intervened.

It is a "cop out" but it's a well established one. In any event, it CAN be reconciled. Marten has set things up so he obviously knows that if Gabrielle is there she could die. Despite Marten's best efforts though Gabrielle still dies, which shocks him.

Or (assuming that Tim's story is true, which I think it is) that Maerlyn is a benevolent wizard in one story while some near omnipotent force of evil in the other. We're talking about entire existence shifting at whims. I imagine Maerlyn in TWTTK wouldn't be responsible for all of the evils of the world as his comic counterpart was, so the entire origins of the Crimson King, Jonas, Rhea and Walter would all be different with each passing moment. One moment he's training Walter in the ways of darkness, the other he's Walter's foil.

This is the same story where Roland preventing Jake from being sent to Midworld nearly tore his mind in half trying to reconcile the two different outcomes of Jake's fate. If Roland's past shifted egregiously as this such an event should have had little effect.

I don't subscribe to the "cop out" explanations either, I must point out, I only list them as possibilities. All that can be said about such things is that this is a story where time and space are being attacked and that this is also a story which features an omnipotent - impossible things can happen however illogical.

But like I said, I don't subscribe to such explanations. I've found everything reconciles without resorting to such things.

For example, Maeryln. We know there are many versions of Merlin in different universes/fiction. Remember that Maerlyn Prim doesn't originate from any world though. He's not actually from Mid-World, he only chooses to go there. He's actually of the Prim, the magical soup of creation.

It's my view that Maerlyn Eld is the true Maerlyn and that Maerlyn Prim (to borrow your terminology) is just a character from Mid-World's mythology, possibly influenced by servants of the Crimson King to denigrate the reputation of the real character. It could even be that the acts of other wizards, Walter and the other more powerful servants of the Red King, were confused with Maerlyn. It's understandable that a being of such power would be treated with fear and distrust regardless of his leanings.

Just as the majority of myths in our world are fictional (although many have a basis in fact) there's no reason to believe the same isn't true in Mid-world. And as I think I said above, in our own world I think there are stories where Merlin is depicted as good, others as evil.

Or it could be The Wind Through the Keyhole sub story is the fictional one. (Or both.) King made it clear this might be the case when Roland stated that

Spoiler:

at least one of the stories he wished to tell was true as he lived it.

And of course there was the plot hole that was actually picked up by that young land Roland befriended,

Spoiler:

as to what did Maerlyn tiger eat while caged. That's easily enough explained, by 'magic' or 'Walter fed him', but point is, King drew our attention to it.

I like to think The Wind Through the Keyhole was part of the true history of that world,

Spoiler:

(although I thought the magic carpet bit was perhaps a bit much) particularly considering the presence of a certain dark man which is consistent with the rest of the stories.

And so I'd rather side with King's version of Maerlyn, particularly as Stephen King is the author. I just wanted to mention other possibilities.

In any event, it CAN be reconciled. Marten has set things up so he obviously knows that if Gabrielle is there she could die. Despite Marten's best efforts though Gabrielle still dies, which shocks him.

But what Marten says to Gabrielle if that she returns to Gilead she WILL die and by Roland's hand. He knew exactly what would happen. Not that her death was a possibility.

A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face.

I think that quote by Roland was King's way of handling us nagging him about every fuckin' mistake he makes in the books. LOL

bingo! a reason that time travel plot twists are circumspect in my book

People are always talking about truth.Everybody knows what the truth is,like it was toilet paper or somethin...All there is is bull*...One layer of bullshit on top of another...what you do in life...pick the layer of bull* that you prefer...

I don't really see discrepancies between the comics series and TWTTK as King making mistakes. While King may have approved the storylines of the early comic arcs, he clearly didn't feel bound by them when he added his own stories.

To me, that just confirmed what had already become apparent - that the comics told others' stories of what happened during this period, not King's stories.