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I have concert grand type casters with rubber coating for my grand. I suppose this doesn't count as a grand dolly. Luckily those caster were included when I bought the piano, otherwise a set of 3 would have cost over 1000$ I think. These Casters are available without coating aswell. The coating can be brown or black.

Surely whether the casters are rubber or metal, there is still the considerable weight of a piano pressing down on three small contact patches. There will be a tendency to dig into any floor that is softer than concrete if the casters are rigid be it hard runner or brass?

You can replace brass castors with rubber ones easily. Your basically trading looks for movability. I haven't seen the rubber coated brass castor insanity spoke of, if thats what it is. I would be interested to see them.

It's fairly easy to switch them out, I can walk you through it if you ever get the urge.

I just found the amercian website I was talking about. http://www.stevespianoservice.com/casters.htmYou have to scroll down a lot. It seems as if they only carry the brass version. At $568.00each! - In case anyone is interested.

Originally posted by JBB_Piano: Are there "caster cups" available for these large, concert-version casters? [/b]

Not to my knowledge. These casters have a much bigger contact surface with the floor than smaller ones. Despite the fact that pianos equipped with these caster usually are a bit heavier due to their size, it should not be to bad for the floor.

I have my B on a persian carpet without any cups. When I move the piano, which is quite easy with these caster, there are marks on the carpet. But they go away after a few days. Any hard floor such as stone or wood should not have any problems with these caster I'd guess.

Rubber casters or brass, beware of moving grands room to room. The legs and leg mountings are not engineered for grands to be moved on their feet. So much mass in motion will break (or dismount)legs if there is any irregularity in the floor.

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Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

I have the casters which insanity mentioned on my Sauter 220, although a slightly updated look.

We have beech floors (3/4 inch or so) and speaking from experience, these casters compress the wood ever so slightly and although in normal lighting there is no indication given a high oblique lighting angle, it is possible to see very faint impressions in the floor. it is not bothersome, however.

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"The creative mind plays with the object it loves." -- Carl Jung

Originally posted by JBB_Piano: Are there "caster cups" available for these large, concert-version casters?

No. It would defeat the puropse of having large casters, which is to allow for efficient and safe moving of the instrument.

Quote:

Originally posted by Piano World: Why do most of the larger grands use brass wheels instead of rubber?

We often hear from people who want to move their piano around, usually just within one room.

Sometimes it's just to clean the floor, or it may be to make room for a party/function.

The problem is the brass wheels do a number on the floors. The usual solutions for commercial use (grand dollies) look out of place in the home.

Can the brass wheels be replaced with rubber, and will the rubber wheels have nice brass frames?

Other ideas?

Large rubber wheels have a number of drawbacks. Besides being a visual distraction to a beautiful, expensive piano, they also interfere with the "grounding" of the piano on the stage or floor. The firm connection of the instrument to the stage, without an acoustic break such as a rubber wheel enhances the tone and projection of hte instrument. As well, large rubber wheels can give the player the sensation of a soft, flexible "suspension" underneath the instrument. A firm unyielding foundation such as provided by quality stage casters is much more desirable.

I could go on, but I don't want to be accused of shameless promotion, as I am the direct importer of these stage casters from Germany.

These casters are also available with a thin, vulcanized rubber coating to protect sensitive floors.

Jonathon, There is an issue with installing these casters on a NY Steinway: NY pianos, (as opposed to Hamburg pianos) have casters that really deserve to be called "wheelies". They are too small to roll properly on a stage. Proof for that is that they don't have (or need brakes). Virtually all German piano makes (incl. S&S) have sensible stage casters (with brakes) under their larger pianos. Converting a NY S&S to stage casters involves doing something with the legs, which either need to be shortened, because of the taller height of the stage casters, or replaced with Hamburg legs, which have the right length for the stage casters.

Besides being a visual distraction to a beautiful, expensive piano, they also interfere with the "grounding" of the piano on the stage or floor. The firm connection of the instrument to the stage, without an acoustic break such as a rubber wheel enhances the tone and projection of hte instrument. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I believe I've seen a NY D with extra short NY legs and those big stage casters now that you mention it, Jurgen. I'd wondered how they did it. Thanks for filling me in. The legs didn't look like they'd been shortened in any way, either.

PS--Doesn't Hamburg use a different leg locking mechanism than NY? I thought I'd heard that NY was homogenizing with Hamburg on that front, using the large screws rather than the wedges.

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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

I've personally heard several Kawai's MPAs say the same thing that Jurgen just said regarding the "grounding effects." No rubber casters, no caster cups for stage and/or performing.

Best,

Bear [/b]

Thanks Bear, it was a great trip.

I'm still not convinced about the "grounding effects" though. Sounds more psychological than factual to me. I'm guessing a 1500lb piano is already pretty well grounded, and most of the sound projection is via the soundboard. Yes/no?

I'm still not convinced about the "grounding effects" though. Sounds more psychological than factual to me. I'm guessing a 1500lb piano is already pretty well grounded, and most of the sound projection is via the soundboard. Yes/no? [/b]

----------Just going by what the "Kawai MPA Pros" told me. I don't have any proof one way or the other. The last time I observed an MPA doing his thing was several years ago in Atlanta while he was prepping an EX for a concert. Those amazing technicians seem to be able to hear a pin drop in the middle of a thunder storm or a hail storm. Anyway, I asked about the casters and he stated that the solid brass casters should be directly on the stage unhindered by caster cups or piano dollies, {piano trucks} or anything else for optimum sound/tone projection. That's pretty close to what Jurgen stated I think.

Originally posted by Bear 1:..... I've personally heard several Kawai's MPAs say the same thing that Jurgen just said regarding the "grounding effects." No rubber casters, no caster cups for stage and/or performing. Best, Bear [/b]

...I'm still not convinced about the "grounding effects" though. Sounds more psychological than factual to me. I'm guessing a 1500lb piano is already pretty well grounded, and most of the sound projection is via the soundboard. Yes/no? [/b]

Pretty big piano, Frank, that is 1-1/2 times the weight of an S&S D !

Yes, most of the sound projecton is via the soundboard. Which means there is a residual amount that stems from elsewhere.

I am not sure about scientific studies to "prove" this, but there is plenty of "soft" evidence.

For one thing, it is well known that the stage can act as a type of secondary sounding board, enhancing the piano sound and projection in a hall.

A good friend of mine is a master piano technician in a major cultural center in Germany, where he does a lot of piano work for the German Broadcasting Corporation. They do a lot of concerts featuring the highest caliber of international pianists, recording for radio and Deutsche Gramaphone, as well as live radio concert broadcasts. All of the pianos there, including the 12 Hamburg Ds, have these casters. He said when North American pianists come, they are thrilled to play on these pianos. There is no bouncing or springiness that you have when plaing pianos mounted on a truck or spider dolly.

Fact is, this rubberized coating is a high tech PUR substance that is baked onto the brass wheels for several hours at high temperature (vulcanized). This material has years of proven track record, among other places is said institution, rolling on and off stages, into elevators and down the halls of the piano vaults in the basement of the broadcasting station.

Supply: I wasn't disputing your vulcanized rubber-coated brass wheel at all. If you took it that way I didn't mean it. I was referring to all-rubber wheels like you find in institutional uprights or on cheap appliance dollies (as opposed to the better quality rubber and bearings on piano dollies).

Originally posted by Bear 1:..... I've personally heard several Kawai's MPAs say the same thing that Jurgen just said regarding the "grounding effects." No rubber casters, no caster cups for stage and/or performing. Best, Bear [/b]

...I'm still not convinced about the "grounding effects" though. Sounds more psychological than factual to me. I'm guessing a 1500lb piano is already pretty well grounded, and most of the sound projection is via the soundboard. Yes/no? [/b]

Pretty big piano, Frank, that is 1-1/2 times the weight of an S&S D !

Yes, most of the sound projecton is via the soundboard. Which means there is a residual amount that stems from elsewhere.

I am not sure about scientific studies to "prove" this, but there is plenty of "soft" evidence.

For one thing, it is well known that the stage can act as a type of secondary sounding board, enhancing the piano sound and projection in a hall.

A good friend of mine is a master piano technician in a major cultural center in Germany, where he does a lot of piano work for the German Broadcasting Corporation. They do a lot of concerts featuring the highest caliber of international pianists, recording for radio and Deutsche Gramaphone, as well as live radio concert broadcasts. All of the pianos there, including the 12 Hamburg Ds, have these casters. He said when North American pianists come, they are thrilled to play on these pianos. There is no bouncing or springiness that you have when plaing pianos mounted on a truck or spider dolly. [/b]

Ah, but the Mason & Hamlin CC is 1400lbs (according to the 12th edition of the Pierce Piano Atlas), so with the bench ... :-)

I would agree a piano firmly planted on the floor would be more stable than one on a truck or spider dolly.My skepticism is with rubber versus brass casters.

Of course at my playing skill level, it could be mounted on silly putty and not make a difference.