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Also, redistributing wealth to the wealthy? Since when is that a goal of libertarianism?

That is the end result of your fiscal policies. Low tax rates and a non-existent social safety net benefit the wealthy and keep the poor poor. Libertarians think they are just being free from government stealing their money, but in actuality that is not how it works. You are simply exchanging paying more taxes for being paid less wages and having less public services available to you.

Edit* -- Your basic economic argument (legalized pot aside) follows the "supply-side" rule, which ignores the fact that economic growth is driven by demand. Low tax rates, while benefiting the wealthy, do not in fact cause long term sustainable economic growth and higher living standards.

Simply look at the tax rates of the years after WW2 and economic growth during this time, and you will see that lower income inequality, brought on by liberal tax policies which benefited the poor, actually increased the wealth and living standards of more Americans.

And the income gap grows naturally as a result of the laissez-faire tax polices that Libertarians advocate.

It was only when the US began cutting those top-tier tax rates, gutting social programs and allowing the income gap to grow did the once robust US economy find itself in the state it's in now.

Guys. Her me out guys, hear me out.
What if, guys, what if, the problem is that we just need more taxes. Seriously guys stay with me. It hasn't worked so far. It hasn't ever worked but guys, seriously, guys come listen, what if, we just do the same thing guys, create the same racial, sexist, and classist divisions that we then use to make bank and get elected. It'll be great guys. Half of us one one side, half on the other. Guys seriously, we'll call it a two party system. We'll make fun of everyone who doesn't join our clubs. Seriously guys, I'm brilliant.

What if, guys, what if, the problem is that we just need more taxes. Seriously guys stay with me. It hasn't worked so far. It hasn't ever worked

/shrug

I guess if you don't count America's high and continually improving standard of living, excellent infrastructure and viable social safety net (that kept millions of seniors from poverty and provided access to medical care) that we possessed in the 20th century thanks to progressive tax rates -- not to mention winning a couple of World Wars and what not -- then yes, it's "never worked."

But to be fair, your libertarian paradise, Somalia, did great under your policies.

Yo, faggot. We have the greatest middle class the world has seen because, well, we are America, where those who work hard, work hard AS FUCK and don't have the government siphoning their money or walking up to their front door with an AK-fucking-47 in their face asking for their fucking rice given to them by the peace corps...

You have no actual proof that what most libertarians would like to see as far as taxation goes would "redistribute wealth to the wealthy". There's no correlative history for you to reference whatsoever.

Libertarians don't want Federal income taxation at all, and those who would approve of or concede to it would most likely insist upon sticking to the original constitutional guidelines. States, on the other hand...

Your argument about post-war America fails to take into consideration the enormous amount of economic growth of the time. Unemployment was also practically non-existent and remained well under 10% until the 1980's. We literally obliterated our biggest global industrial competitors, and then reaped the benefits from that for decades.

The income gap or wealth disparity rate is at it's highest right now, even higher than what we saw at the time of the "robber barons" of the early industrial age. You could argue that it's republicans, not democrats that have made it this way...but I would argue that they both led us here hand in hand - or at the very least democrats have been completely spineless when they were not also directly responsible.

As a classical liberal I believe in the benefits of a government used as a benevolent force for good; a bastion of liberty, equality, and justice for all. I don't mind the idea of government social programs much; there's enough of us living in such a prosperous nation that we should all be able to help keep one another afloat. However, I don't think that use of force is the final answer; I'm not so cynical that I've resigned to the belief that we must be threatened, at gunpoint if necessary, in order to achieve the goal of equality.

I was a Democrat much like you a long time ago...but I could no longer support the rise of the welfare/warfare state that republicans and democrats alike have created over the course of my life. I can't support endless warfare, homeland security, TSA, patriot act, extra-judicial killing, extraordinary rendition, warrant-less domestic surveillance, etc, etc....I'm sure I'm missing some other bullshit that our government has collectively decided for us, but you get the picture. Your vote for either party only confirms your support for all of those things, yours are the numbers they're counting on; that the vast majority of Americans continue to put their faith in a political leadership that does these things tells the folks in DC all they need to know in order to continue and escalate these kinds of policies and actions.

Your argument about post-war America fails to take into consideration the enormous amount of economic growth of the time.

My argument hinges precisely on this -- that economic growth happened because of the smaller income gap of the times, which in a large part was brought about by high tax rates on the wealthy. At the very least high tax rates on the wealthy did nothing to slow economic growth while at the same time providing funds for projects like the interstate highway system and the space program (which has provided an 8-1 ROI since the 1960s) to provide a few examples.

However, I don't think that use of force is the final answer; I'm not so cynical that I've resigned to the belief that we must be threatened, at gunpoint if necessary, in order to achieve the goal of equality.

Ask the black folk in the South how well voluntary integration worked.

Speaking of the South, the Confederacy was a much more Libertarian style country, and its failure to hold off the North in a defensive war (something it was capable of) had much to do with the Confederate government's inability to marshal the resources of its constituent states effectively.

It's the same reason the Articles of Confederation were scrapped after less than a decade; your style of government simply doesn't work. It's been tried by smarter men than us and it failed miserably. We have two solid historical examples of it in our own history.

You're not paying attention. The economic growth happened because all of our biggest global industrial competitors got wiped out in the war, not because of government tax policy - the growth itself was going to happen with or without taxes, as we were the only industrialized nation left physically unscathed by the war. I would certainly agree that our tax policy at the time may have been beneficial towards promoting economic equality amongst Americans, but it's not the underlying reason we had such a drastic and long-lasting economic growth period.

There are no solid historical examples of a truly libertarian society in America - unless maybe you consider the native populations that were deliberately erased. There has always been market manipulation, whether it be by the hand of government, by the hand of the wealthy businessmen, or most often a combination of the two - which subsequently, is what we still have now; a system which rewards the biggest cheaters and punishes the rest of us...and it's all brought to you by democrats and republicans alike.

Involuntary integration hasn't really worked out all that great in the south. If anything, it has promoted a culture of resentment. Aside from some of the more urban locales, the south is still as racially segregated as ever - economically, geographically, and psychologically. Take a trip to some of the south's more rural country and you will find that racism and segregation are still very alive and well to a degree you probably would never consider. It's changing, but the process is really, really slow.

The question of social integration isn't one that libertarians feel the government has any right to interfere in. Racial equality, however, is a no-brainer for libertarians. Ideally all forms of aggression, including those that are racially motivated, would face the same scrutiny under the law.

The fact that you completely ignore all of the horrible, indecent, and inhumane policies and actions created, carried out, and supported by both republicans and democrats alike for the last 60 years or so - while simultaneously rejecting an idea that hasn't really been tried in earnest - really says it all. You R's and D's are all alike, flip sides of the same corrupt, soulless coin.

The answer is not force, it's educational awareness. Aggressive force has proven to fail us collectively time and time again throughout all of human history, since the very beginning. Unless we ever realize the true impact of aggressive force, we will be doomed to repeat the failures of our ancestors, and one day this "great civilization" we live in will be little more than a footnote.

Oh. I fucking hate this, "TAX THE WEALTHY! THEY MAKE MORE MONEY THAN ME!" bullshit!

THE FUCKING MIDDLE CLASS OWNS 60 FUCKING PERCENT OF THE GODDAMN INCOME IN AMERICA! TAX THE MIDDLE CLASS IF YOU WANT YOUR FUCKING MONEY FUCKING PRICK!

Now, my parents are middle class, about 100k a year between the both of them, and that is even maybe just barely above middle-middle class. When I go out in the world, I expect the government to take my money, so I will go ahead and plan for that. Top Ramen diet, Salvation Army furniture, Wal-Mart clothes and the sort. I don't expect to live in a two story, 6 bedroom, 3 bathroom house out in Cali. I expect to live in an apartment in an area like Springfield, Illinois or Indianapolis, Indiana.