Here's a thread dedicated to the polarizing posts from boh sides so as to not clutter the actual Death of Bin Laden thread.

My random and initial thoughts:

Any politician calling attention to himself regarding the mission is an asshole. This is about the kids that went in and the people who were lost 10 years ago.

If that mission fails like the hostage fuckup 30 years ago Obama wears that failure forever. It says something that he 'pulled the trigger' on the mission regarldless of how good the intel was. I believe there are those who may not have done so.

I'm not a centrist like the rest of you. I lean to the right for the most part and have always voted that way. But CNN is still the best source out there IMO for news and timely updates. I tuned in Fox last night to get the 'fair and balanced' coverage and had to trun it back to CNN 2 minutes later because Fox had their D-team assembled and were efing up the sound and video as well as the anchor stumbling all over himself.

I loathe the 'U-S-A" chant. Has become cliche and lacking of any impact. And yeah, I woulda cheered and nodded in approval and respect to the cats who went in, but I wouldn't of busted out that chant ten years after dude knocked down buildings. YMMV

I don't care who you are, that's funny. Obviously I am not an ardent Obama supporter, but he gained a significant more respect from me over this because frankly I would have not expected him to have the balls to pull something like this off. High risk mission that could have failed miserably and will most likely strain relations further with Pakistan, but fuck them. Didn't think he would have the cojones to feel the same way.

The worst example I've seen so far comes from the Democratic Congressman Rep. Ackerman, who said (paraphrasing here, but I'm pretty close to verbatim) ..."this was a 'Mission Accomplished' moment that George Bush could only fantasize about".

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Personally I've been of the belief we killed him years ago. Between all controversy of his existence, tapes, stunt doubles, and his half lung terminal diseasd ass I figure there is no way he survived the horrendous attacks on his hide awa years ago.

This reported news of his death has nothing more than symbolic meaning in the end game, and as peeker said it means more for the efforts of those sent to war because of that jerk than anything else.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

danwismar wrote:The worst example I've seen so far comes from the Democratic Congressman Rep. Ackerman, who said (paraphrasing here, but I'm pretty close to verbatim) ..."this was a 'Mission Accomplished' moment that George Bush could only fantasize about".

I heard that, it was pretty damn pathetic. Can't even enjoy Obama's greatest day as President with out taking a unneeded shot at Bush.

Four years ago, we uncovered his identity, and for operational reasons, I can’t go into details about his name or how we identified him, but about two years ago, after months of persistent effort, we identified areas in Pakistan where the courier and his brother operated. Still we were unable to pinpoint exactly where they lived, due to extensive operational security on their part. The fact that they were being so careful reinforced our belief that we were on the right track.

Will be interesting to find out if they were "advanced interrogation techniques" at GITMO

What, you think it's easy to track down a 6'6" terrorist with a dialysis machine?

The key is getting the right piece of intel and acting on it in a timely fashion. For the first few years after 9/11, he was moving around too much for us to ever get anything close to a real-time fix on his location. Add to that the fact that the ISI was pretty much complicit in harboring him, and you have a very difficult operating environment. We couldn't just figure out where he might have been, shot a missle from a drone or dropped a JDAM and claimed we killed him. Even if we did get him, the Pakis would have removed his body from the scene, claim collateral damage and we'd never know for sure. We had to get solid intel and have time to get boots on the ground to execute a kill/capture mission in a foreign country without their permission. Those chances don't come along very often. Thank God we didn't close Gitmo or haul KSM to NYC to stand trial.

He's not on dialysis, for the record.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Limbaugh being even handed. Making fun of Obama for single handedly pulling it off, but giving credit for the fact he continued the strong efforts of counter terrorism. Gave credit several times for continuing the policies, unafraid to use special forces.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

Orenthal wrote:Limbaugh being even handed. Making fun of Obama for single handedly pulling it off, but giving credit for the fact he continued the strong efforts of counter terrorism. Gave credit several times for continuing the policies, unafraid to use special forces.

So Limbaugh is being more of a centrist today than JB? Get out.

I, as well, thought the speech was a little too self centered for my taste, but really it is nit picking. The mission was ordered and carried out... how he presents it to the country is style, not really worried about it. I think he would have looked even better by deflecting credit, everyone would have given him it anyway.

hey Peeks,interetsing question for discussion, and saves a thread we should all be able to agree upon from further diversion.

I have two answers for you. One is from my heart and as idealist, and the other is from my head as a realist.

Heart recalls the words of Lao Tzu from the Tao or maybe it was Sun Tsu who wrote, "conduct your victory as if it were a funeral." What i think he meant was that war is always a somber course of human events and in vistory we recall those who gave the full measure with no thoughts of hsittaion. We remember the inncocent caught in the cross fire both here and there. This is not for men to crow and chant and thump chests. It is also about a nation coming together through three administrations working tirelessly for justice, none more important than the other. All were staffed by patriots trying to do their level best as they were given the ability to do "best". It is childish and petty and beneith everyone to compare, contrast, and politicize.

Head says, "Cacka, yous muthafuckin' craczie".

I was mesmerized last night, Tuned in here this morning and fist thing I read is Adsam and his GOP based worldview giving Obama shit. I watched the same damn address. watched it again after Adam's post. What i saw was a man who used the words "we" and "we're" in an eloquent, respectful and moving address at least 6 time sthe ferquency of "I", a promoun used ONLY in one psseg to explain the deceiison details of the operation. Obama was practically like an acedemy award recipient, thanking and acknowlging everyone but himself. And he gets shit on.

I know it would happen. I just had my money on FUDU and not Adam. It's fucking ridiculous. And so to an extent I see this thread by you as a means to head off not only the subject of credit where due, but to in fact invalidate even the concept that this administration did anything right to being bid laden to ultimate jutice. And so that my friend, is a load of feces.

W got dressed up and landed in a god damn jump suit on a carrier about 12 hours after young men and women were dying in a contrived war. Where was your post then, Brian? Where was your line of scantity and apolotical appeals then? Shit, where was it for Pat Tillman when he was a manufactured hero out of his victimhood?

Here are a few tangible reasons why this administration deserves credit for bin laden coming to justice.

1. Obama maintained a bi-partisan foreign affiars team both inside and outside of the party. His wisdom to appeal to Robert Gates to stay on instead of replacing him with an ideolougue (um, like Rumsfeld) , and Gates patriotism is a model overlooked by any wing nut GOP gas bag. It shows dividends. Within his party, Leon panetta is a FOB guy. By all accounts he's a real bitch to work for and with. He names his bitter primary rival SofS. He could have ignored them all, cleaned house, and names cronies and ideologues, much like W did when he dismissed Rich Clarke and others who tried to warn of impending danger. He didn't. he kept the best people and brought in his political enemies becasue he was humble enough to know he needed the help due to inexperience. He then invested forces and focus in Afghnistan much to the chagrin of the left, who is probably greeting this day with a yawn except for their own dooshbags.

2 . It is clear by now that Pakistan was clueless this operation was going down. Good. They have played us for fools now for a decade. the decisin to give them the middle finger on this, when this compound was what, a mile from a major pakistani base, could not have been a low level decision. It almost certainly had to be made by the CinC of minimally his appointed cabinet.

3 . The order to send in a very risky ground mision. Don't take this for granted. Bubba sent in cruise missels. carter lost the election when Marcinko's team experienced a clusterfuck. Took some balls to call this shot whether you think so or not. If that compund had more al qaeda there and they responded or the local armed population got involved, you could have EASILY had another Mogadishu.

barry done good. This is NOT about him, but don't mitigt ethat this is a positive check in the box by anyone who is fair. This administration, and very likely this POTUS individually, made some good decisions and deserve the thanks of a grateful nation, as do the sailors and civilians who worked on this tactically last night and for a year in planning.

Lastly, as fr as partisanship an dthis milestone, you can best believe these too be true either now or future forward.

Every and all GOP POTUS candidate will to some degree haul out the security card to play in 2012. If you ere in the Dems shows, woudn't you hold this out as exhibit A in rebuttle, knowing what we know right now?

Soon you will hear some dooshbag, maybe bach,man, maybe Imhoff, maybe Palin, maybe Rush or Beck, question why a ) bin :Laden was killed and not captured and b ) why he was buried at sea. The next logical step will be to creat a conspiracy theory that ll this was manufactured tro take away from producing a birth certificate and the deficit. As sure as I'm sitting here, this will be politicized from the right wing nuts about a hundred more times than from the left.

So fuck it Brian. As ab observer, the left deserves to crow on this day.America done good. The Seals done good. The inteliigence apparatus done good. And the top decisions, including those from the CinC, mneans they done good. To try to get out preemptively to take away that feather in th ecap, or notch in the belt, or whatever; to me, that is what reeks of partisanship if we live in political reality.

Last edited by jb on Mon May 02, 2011 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Orenthal wrote:Limbaugh being even handed. Making fun of Obama for single handedly pulling it off, but giving credit for the fact he continued the strong efforts of counter terrorism. Gave credit several times for continuing the policies, unafraid to use special forces.

So Limbaugh is being more of a centrist today than JB? Get out.

I, as well, thought the speech was a little too self centered for my taste, but really it is nit picking. The mission was ordered and carried out... how he presents it to the country is style, not really worried about it. I think he would have looked even better by deflecting credit, everyone would have given him it anyway.

You guys are all so fuckin' wacked. You see what you want to see. Nothing in the address was remotely as self-ceneterd as you make it out. To even focus one iota on it just shows how partisan all y'all are. Don't even fuckin' tell me that you uys aren't.

Methinks this is a trick question. Having read your posts for three years, you seem to take the view that a conservative viewpoint is by definition disqualifying as a good faith perspective to debate public policy issues. Partisanship is the bogeyman.

Partisanship, as the name implies, is the unwavering support of one political party. For my part, my views are informed by a set of principles, not by blind loyalty to a party. I'll cop to a conservative bias. I'm proud of that bias as rooted in principle, and I'll defend it in debate anytime, anywhere.

I have repeatedly stood up for the president in my posts today and last night. For all your fulminating here today, you'd think this thread would already be populated with numerous examples of the right-wing criticisms of Obama that you are preemptively condemning. Where are they?

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

And you almost never will. Doesn't make me a "wing nut" or whatever rhetoric you want to use to describe me. I'd rather somebody stand firm on one side or the other than saunter back and forth at their convenience.

Also, let me get this straight, because I hate Obama, and have all along, I'm as far right as possible? I wonder what other evidence you have to support these claims against me.

I grew up in a Union household (Steelworker) in the most Democratic county in the state. I'm damn proud to be a Conservative. What's so bad about that?

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Cuyahoga and Mahoning are really close in terms of liberals. I'd give the edge to Cuyahoga based on overall volume of Democrats. If it weren't for suburbs like Strongsville, Broadview Heights, and a couple others that are right on the county border, it'd be at least a 75/25 split, if not more.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

Ziner wrote:Anyone who views things different than JB is a wing nut. LOL

Limbaugh is a wing nut.

Ergo, anyone who pimps him is a wing nut.

I've seen you come center alot Z. I'll give you that.

I've come right o agree with OJ on some, but have never seen him budge center.

Never seen Adam get left.

So you're talking a sample size of 3 or 4 Ziner. Not "everyone.

So bullshit on you. And bullshit on this thread until it gets more lucid content.

See what you want to see right? Huge congrats on this an obvious one, but also congrats on the Tax Cut extension, the non closing of Gitmo. Yeah I give the guy credit when he does things that fit into my principles.

Want me to come center. IMO I don't think it was appropriate for him to mention GOD in his speech last night.

Haughty smug centrist.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

It's great that the guy has been wiped from the face of the earth. It's great that Obama had the intelligence and foresight and balls to go forth with a dangerous and potentially deadly mission.

I love you and Adam. Really do. I consider you guys friends. But I don't wanna read either of your equally and dueling partisan crap in the thread dedicated to the actual news story and the account of the mission.

I want to know what happened and how and when and who was involved. I wanna see helmet cam footage and I wanna know where these leads originated.

Not hear the same tired, played out shit spew from either side about partisan politics. No one is ever fucking wrong. EVER.

I just don't wanna read it in a thread dedicated to an amazing military mission. And I'm not trying to offend. I also believe there are others who don't want to see the right/left same old argument or who would prefer to have the threads bifurcated.

Now:

The left should be crowing? Why? What the fuck did you or your party do?

Bitching about the speech? Really? It was fucking fine unless nothing the dude does will ever be fine with you.

It's too fucking much. Keep it here and see if you guys can come to center to bitch and whine about me.

And save the jumpsuit on a carrier thing. I'm about the most apolitical person you'll ever see. That's the reason for the thread.

I am wondering if leftist critiques of the White House decision to kill rather than capture OBL will be condemned as excessively "partisan".

Because JB seems to be half-right, based on what I'm seeing on the blogs this morning. There is, in fact, criticism of the president's decision to give a "kill order" rather than make every attempt to capture OBL alive. But these criticisms are coming (not surprisingly) from the left, not the right.

And this is, of course, where the criticism (so far, in the absence of examples)of the right breaks down. Lefty critiques of the decision will be papered over as compassionate and principled...above the dirty business of war and motivated by genuine humanitarian concerns...blah, blah, blah. The exact same argument from a conservative....that we should be trying to demonstrate our commitment to the rule of law...will be dismissed as Obama-hating partisanship.

And let's be truthful about it. There is a legitimate "rule of law" argument to be made about us being better than the terrorists we face as enemies. It's not an argument that I find persuasive, especially in this extreme case, given the universal American loathing for OBL, and the specter of some kind of trial of him as a platform for more hateful rhetoric from him...but it's a legitimate argument that could be made by well-intentioned citizens on either side of the political divide.

It is the prejudgment of the motives of only one side that I find interesting.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

danwismar wrote:Interesting. And I can honestly say I am without an agenda on this. The administration and the Pentagon really should get together and decide on one narrative or the other.

I am not saying anyone has an agenda here specifically over the issue of it being a Kill or Capture mission. Not at all. Using the 'Royal' you on that.

Just saying the story is fluid and it's already a game of telephone with the facts; layers added for effect or removed for safety.

And I don't think it would matter if the admin and 5agon got together because there's a human element involved that could eff their narrative right in the ear with the truth.

Listening to NPR and Rush I'm wondering if the killing was justice or political assassination and whether there was only a small team of JSOCs or a team of hundreds from all four branches that also set up a perimeter half a mile from the hut/mansion.

There is no truth.

There are now credible (meaning no more than believeable) stories from NPR/Rush/Cnn/Fox that all tell it a bit differently and all give various amounts of credit for the planning/execution/courage depending on which side of the aisle their interests and heroes lie.

Makes me sick.

Although, in judging by some folks on the board whose opinion and intelligence I value and respect, maybe it works really well to go about it this way.

And no Dan, I'm not talking about you here although you do fall into the category of who I value and respect.

Dude BHO's & GWB's admins deserve credit for this, just that simple. BHO b/c he didn't change course just b/c he wasn't GWB, kudos to him on that. No matter how anyone feels about our entire WOT there was enough validity to the HfOBL to see it through for the sake of message to the world of terror if for nothing else. (trust me I'm most playing devil's advocate on this).

Was justice served, who knows, I doubt many loved ones of fallen US soldiers (and 911 victims) think so but they set the goal of eliminating this man, and they did it. They deserve to check that off their list.

The more important thing IMO is the real meaning of OBL's death, I just cannot see how at this point in the global scope of terrorism that this is anything more than symbolic. Was he really calling the shots in the past few years? In his supposed condition and being perpetually on the lam was he even capable of anything more than moral support to his cause? I'm not sure those questions can be answered or if those answers matter. What I do know is the damage is already done (if you truly believe in terrorism as presented to us) and his physical presence on the planet is pretty much moot at this juncture.

I'm more happy for the men & women in all the armed forces from around the globe that have got behind this effort, they accomplished something and hopefully most of them can start heading home (<--- pipe dream most likely).

As far as the means of disposing of the body, I cannot blame people for being skeptical but at heart dumping his ass in the ocean seems like a rather smart move, at least in the sense that there will not be a living breathing shrine that holds any true significance to the events and his physical remains.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:As far as the means of disposing of the body, I cannot blame people for being skeptical but at heart dumping his ass in the ocean seems like a rather smart move, at least in the sense that there will not be a living breathing shrine that holds any true significance to the events and his physical remains.

This was precisely the rationale cited by admin people for burying the body at sea....that, and the fact that it does comport with proper accepted Islamic procedure.

"I believe it is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting." H.L. Mencken

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Tripods you sound so bitter, it's crazy, i'd figure you to be one of the happiest. Just pissed it was Obama in the POTUS chair?

Nah. Bitter's not even the word I'd use. I just didn't like the way he addressed the nation. Among other things that I'm not going to post here because my opinion is not well-received.

Bullshit. Your opinions are respected here because they deserve respect, same as JB's are respected here. Always and without apprehension.

That's why the partisan stuff strikes me as trite in many threads. It's also why I created this one so that the partisan crap can be discussed without tainting the other thread that will absolutely posi-fucking-tively devolve into a cess pool of smart people crawling under the bar that's already been set in pretty much every other thread that gets political.

Come correct on that. The military created one martyr yesterday. I can't deal with two more here.

Politik all you want here. I just prefer a separation of dirt and state when it comes to the shooting deaths of religious militaristic zealots.

FUDU wrote:As far as the means of disposing of the body, I cannot blame people for being skeptical but at heart dumping his ass in the ocean seems like a rather smart move, at least in the sense that there will not be a living breathing shrine that holds any true significance to the events and his physical remains.

This was precisely the rationale cited by admin people for burying the body at sea....that, and the fact that it does comport with proper accepted Islamic procedure.

IMO that subtle noble gesture, no matter how slight, is perfect and can go along way. I mean we got the guy so we "won" (so to speak) no need to spit on the way the entire Islamic community goes respecting it's dead. Trust me I'm not getting soft here, I could truly care less from the stand point those ass fucks don't even respect their living, but as already mentioned no need to "rub it in".

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Sooooooooooooo.... are the Republicans just gonna call off the race for 2012?

They need to stop being a bunch of ass clowns and get their shit together or they might as well. But, Iraq I did Bush the Elder no good, and it's possible that the economy, jobs, gas prices, and the deficit may be seen as larger isues than getting Bin Laden.

I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever. - CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team

The political points relevant to approval ratings will be short lived, IIRC aren't they always with these types of situations (where so much was involved, and the QB gets credit for the win regardless of his horrible audibles).

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:As far as the means of disposing of the body, I cannot blame people for being skeptical but at heart dumping his ass in the ocean seems like a rather smart move, at least in the sense that there will not be a living breathing shrine that holds any true significance to the events and his physical remains.

This was precisely the rationale cited by admin people for burying the body at sea....that, and the fact that it does comport with proper accepted Islamic procedure.

IMO that subtle noble gesture, no matter how slight, is perfect and can go along way. I mean we got the guy so we "won" (so to speak) no need to spit on the way the entire Islamic community goes respecting it's dead. Trust me I'm not getting soft here, I could truly care less from the stand point those ass fucks don't even respect their living, but as already mentioned no need to "rub it in".

Okay. I give. Drop his ass in the sea or in a sewer or whatever 'watery' grave fits the bill. It makes sense what you, Dan and e0y say and if the 3 of you agree I might just be dead myself so none of it matters.

But it woulda been awful hard for me as a guy who watched friends and good friends die looking for that motherfucker to lift a finger in deference to the islamic community.

Tell ya what. They better have video of that because a minority of muslims are gonna buy it and none of the radical muslims will even with proof.