Beryllium seems to be the latest fashion. It's very light but toxic ( I'm surprised EU regulations allow it ! )
I'm sure Wilson would like to use it instead of titanium but Focal won't sell it

Labarum

19-10-2008, 10:13

My 20 year old Quart 980s have titanium dome tweeters and aluminium domes the size of tennis balls as mid range units. Excentric?

jandl100

20-10-2008, 18:22

Metal domes are often assumed to screech. Some do, but some are as good or better than fabric etc domes imo. The metal domes in my AP Virgos, for example, are fast and detailed but smooth and never grating.

Not sure if all metal domes started off screechy and the technology has since improved. Any views?

Mike

20-10-2008, 18:42

Beryllium seems to be the latest fashion.

Latest fashion?... Maybe!

New?... Not at all, witness the 1970's Yamaha NS1000M. ;)

Ali Tait

20-10-2008, 19:56

Was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it Mike! Yams can be ruthlessly revealing but I've heard them sound good with the right amp.

Labarum

20-10-2008, 21:07

Latest fashion?... Maybe!

New?... Not at all, witness the 1970's Yamaha NS1000M. ;)

These?

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/yamahans1000m.html

Do Yamaha currently make any domestic loudspeakers?

Mike

21-10-2008, 01:41

Do Yamaha currently make any domestic loudspeakers?

Yes! :)

They make these:

http://www.soavo.com/

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/speakers/soavo.html?CTID=5040543

Prince of Darkness

21-10-2008, 06:43

Hi-Fi World gave a favourable review to one of the Soavo models fairly recently.

John

21-10-2008, 14:36

I heard the Usher Dancer Be-20 really nice speaker. As everyone points out you need to be careful when partnering, but metal domes can be quite special in the right circumstances
A few years back I had some Jamo Concerts 8s with the Musical Fidelity xp100pre and
X200 power amp boy was that system tiring

Marco

21-10-2008, 15:07

I've heard some speakers with metal dome tweeters I like, but in general I don't get on with them because they tend to lend a bright, forward, nature to the sound. Silver plated (not solid silver) cables also give a similar effect to my ears.

However, as with anything else in hi-fi, it's not what is used but how well it's implemented that counts, so I would never automatically dismiss metal dome tweeters for that reason.

Marco.

Labarum

21-10-2008, 15:53

When I bought my Quarts in 1988 it was generally said by Brits that German speakers were "all boom and tiz", and by the Germans that British speakers all rolled off in the treble.

The Quarts certainly need "smooth" amplification, and have used them with Sugden or Quad without any hint of aggressive or sibilant treble.

When I bought my Quad 77 Integrated I also auditioned the equivalent AVI box - very nice and beautifully made, but the balance of the system was then very aggressive.

Presently I am driving the Quarts with a newly refurbished Quad 405-2 - again a very detailed sound with secure imaging and no hint of roughness.

I am sure Marco is right - many technologies can produce extremely good results - if expertly implemented.

Filterlab

23-10-2008, 10:59

What are the current views about metal dome tweeters?

And what are there supposed advantages and disadvantages?

I love them personally, but I really enjoy crystal clean treble. To some people metal dome tweeters are too aggressive and sibilant whereas to others they're just right. If done correctly though they can be exceptionally smooth whilst offering highs to dote unto. :)

The best dome tweeters I've ever encountered (or certainly the ones that stick in my mind) are the diamond tweeters from Wharfedale's Coleridge C Class speakers from the late 80s/early 90s. So crisp and pure without going OTT.

The best tweeters I've ever encountered full stop are the ribbon tweeters that Rob from Robson Acoustics uses on his speakers, they have so much air and detail it's almost frightening. Next time you go to a show, look for Robson Acoustics and have a listen.

David Price

26-10-2008, 15:40

As ever, it's not about what it is but how it's done - Ford's old CVH in the Fiesta was a rattly old pig of an engine; Honda's C13 in the Civic was a free reving, smooth as silk jewel; both are 1.3 4 cyl petrol engines. All metal domes aren't created the same. The key point is the mass of the dome; the heavier it is, the slower it will sound and the more it will impose itself on the sound in terms of distortion, ringing, etc. That's why Yamaha chose Beryllium for the NS1000s - it is the lightest metal in the periodic table, and only the fourth lightest element itself! (Hydrogen, Helium, Lithium, Beryllium). Aluminium, magnesium and titanium are all a lot heavier and so less suitable. The problem is of course, matching your super-light, ultra fast and clean tweeter with any other drive unit; it's hardly going work coherently with the far heavier and slower KEF B110 (Linn Isobarik, etc.) is it? Which is why Yamaha then built a Beryllium dome midband unit - which is highly phase coherent - the Ushers, Focals, etc. don't have this. A healthy pair of NS1000Ms is a remarkable listen; quite stark but only 'hard' if the source components driving them are; they are icily clear and mind bogglingly fast. I wouldn't say they're a universal panacea, but certainly one of the greatest ever speakers and unique from an engineering point of view. So metal can be superb as a drive unit material; but it's got to be as light as possible and very carefully integrated into the speaker's drive unit complement as a whole.

Labarum

26-10-2008, 16:19

Which is why Yamaha then built a Beryllium dome midband unit

My 20 years old MB Quart's have a titanium dome tweeter and an aluminium domed midrange driver - the two bass drivers are conventionally made.

At the time, in Germany, the Quart 980 and its sisters had outstanding reviews.

Prince of Darkness

26-10-2008, 19:43

That's why Yamaha chose Beryllium for the NS1000s - it is the lightest metal in the periodic table, and only the fourth lightest element itself! (Hydrogen, Helium, Lithium, Beryllium).

Since when was Lithium not a metal!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

David Price

27-10-2008, 01:11

Hi Kevin - yes, you're right! What I meant was the lightest 'useable' metal, as you can't make tweeters out of it! A Lithium dome would last about as long a joint in a jazz club. It's a highly unstable and reactive element - as my O level chemistry lessons proved!

Prince of Darkness

27-10-2008, 07:52

Something like this?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM

I remember it well. Has to be stored in oil to prevent reaction with air.

DSJR

27-01-2010, 18:33

In my experience, if many metal domes are sent too low in frequency by an inappropriate crossover, they can sound truly horrid, but a dem given to me by a speaker designer moving the crossover frequency up turned a sqawky mess into a sweet and very clear treble with sparkle..

As David said earlier, it's how it's done and how the particular tweeter is used..

Rare Bird

27-01-2010, 18:43

Best sounding tweeter if well exicuted in design is the Celestion 'HF1300'/Coles '4001'' combo.

Macca

27-01-2010, 18:55

The best dome tweeters I've ever encountered (or certainly the ones that stick in my mind) are the diamond tweeters from Wharfedale's Coleridge C Class speakers from the late 80s/early 90s. So crisp and pure without going OTT.

.

I remember the Coleridge well - absolutely magical sounding mid and top but they did not suite Rock music well for some reason I could never quite identify but may well have been the bass timing being a bit off. I'm sure they used some type of ceramic tweeter, not metal, it was bloody good though.

My Celestions use a titanium dome that is not at all sharp or harsh despite what HFW said in their review (if you are reading this Mr Price;)) but it does give a 'generic' sounding top that is a little disappointing on occasion and is the main reason I will have to be 'moving on' 'speaker-wise at some point. The tweeters on my neighbour's Ruark Talismans are far better - they are some sort of soft dome.

Labarum

27-01-2010, 19:01

How high? My titanium tweeters cut in at 3KHz

http://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/MB_Quart_980_S

"very clear treble with sparkle" characterises my speakers well.

I have never considered them harsh or brittle.

MartinT

27-01-2010, 21:03

I heard the Usher Dancer Be-20 really nice speaker

They are! Both tweeter and midrange are beryllium, the tweeter a conventional convex dome and the mid a concave unit. The two together give a completely seamless presentation, not harsh but very detailed and extended. Voice is natural and the extreme treble reproduces sounds like the triangle very realistically, even from CD (not the best source for extreme treble).

Usher have continued to develop the tweeters. I know this because my son over-drove the speakers about six months ago and blew both tweeters. Hi-Audio, the distributor, ordered me a replacement matched set from Taiwan and I swear these replacements are even better sounding.

Labarum

27-01-2010, 21:06

They are! Both tweeter and midrange are beryllium

Mine have titanium tweeters and aluminium midrange units - they are as big as a tennis ball - a big domes.

twelvebears

27-01-2010, 22:04

Best tweeters I've ever heard were Dynaudio Esotar T330D, which were used in stuff like the Sonus Faber Extrema. Once had a pair in a previous incarnation of my current speakers some years back. they were awesome, but at over £500 per pair, a tad pricey

You can't get them now as Dynaudio don't sell to the DIY market anymore.:(