skirtcafe.org

Skirt Cafe is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men, formerly known as men in skirts. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices. Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. See here for more details.

skirtyscot wrote:...Drugging a boy up with oestrogen won't make him grow adult female body parts like girls do when they reach puberty.

I dislike the implications of your expression "drugging up", but carefully controlled doses of œstrogen do cause growth of existing breast tissue and other more-subtle physical and mental changes. A lot of this is discussed in the 'members-only' sections of transgender groups, but very little of it becomes public knowledge.

skirtyscot wrote:

And how can your natural puberty be wrong?

When you are transgender.

That doesn't answer the question. It doesn't make puberty wrong, it's just that the person doesn't like it.

It makes it wrong for that person - and as that person is the person most affected by it, their opinion is the one which counts most in that particular case.

skirtyscot wrote:

dillon wrote:
Natural puberty may not be wrong, per chromosomal body traits, but may be wrong for the individual's sense of self, in particular gender. It has been well demonstrated that it is far simpler to reconcile the body to the mind than vice versa. That fact is the origin of the cliche regarding the "woman trapped in a man's body." It is not far-fetched.

...It strikes me that it would be better for the patient to be taught to accept his or her body than spend a life on medication.

That has been tried and it doesn't work - it is recognised as a form of mental abuse which causes great harm and is now illegal in most civilised countries. Why should a transgender person have to be brainwashed to satisfy the false beliefs of other people?

There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.

I’m reading the last line as favorable. Best to take it that way. Father of three and still fancy women. Maybe it does tap into a feminine side that I must have accepted down the line.
After all it is a positive shout for the gang and forum.

He could well be. The two are quite similar, in that they have at heart an unfalsifiable proposition, from which everything else flows. Also large numbers of their adherents seem to get very annoyed when people ask perfectly reasonable questions about their beliefs.

In other words, you are failing to distinguish between thoughts about one's physical body, and thoughts about one's own mind.

To wit, a transgender person has an internal mental model of themselves that does not match their physical sex traits.

Inside, they view themselves as a different sex. An internal view is subjective, like an emotion, or a preference, or desire. But, I understand how that might be hard to swallow, because we tend to think of sex in terms of physical characteristics, so let me offer the following analogy, to help you understand.

We often hear fat people lamenting, "Inside, I am thin," or some variation thereof. Now, before you protest, hear me out.

Internally, such a fat person view does themselves as thin. That is to say that when they imagine themselves interacting with the physical world, or when they think of themselves, their mental proxy for themselves is that of a thin person,. This view of themselves isn't just restricted to physical characteristics, but to all of the ways that society treats a thin person (they are often seen as more attractive, fashion often caters to them, they are likelier to be offered higher paying jobs, and so on). In other words, they would like to be treated as thin (in addition to actually being thin), in an ideal world. And, in fact, when they look in the mirror, they often experience dissonance--an unease at the mismatch between what they see, and how they view themselves. I should know--I am one of these people, and I suspect other members of this forum are, as well.

Now, such people certainly don't believe they are thin on the outside.That would be delusional.

Rather, they acknowledge the reality of two things:
1) they view themselves as thin.
2) they aren't thin.

But, in most cases, they want the following to be true instead:
1) they view themselves as thin.
2) they really are thin.

In short, they know that their internal image does not match their external image. On the contrary, to ignore your own state of mind is to be delusional.

A person who is depressed, but believes they are happy is delusional.
A person who really wants to be a professional artist, but believes they want to be a medical doctor, instead, is delusional.
A person who doesn't understand General Relativity, but believes that they understand gravity, is delusional.
A person who is tone deaf, but believes they are an incredible musician is delusional.

That's because, in each case, their mental state/function/ability directly contradicts what they believe.

Similarly, transgender people acknowledge the following:
1) they view themselves as a certain sex, X.
2) the sexual characteristics of their body do not match the sexual characteristics of X.

And, similar to the fat person,
they would rather have the following be true, instead:
1) they view themselves as a certain sex, X.
2) the sexual characteristics of their body match the sexual characteristics of X.

And, just as a fat person might strive to physically become as close as thin to possible (and remember, most fat people have a incredibly difficult time achieving this goal, and not for lack of trying), a transgender person would strive to physically become as close to their internal sex as possible. In both cases, it simply might not be physically possible to completely achieve this goal.

Now, I have one more thing to say about internal mental states, and that is that denial of your own mental state, without exception, harmful to your mental health. For example, years of suppressing anger can lead to reduced ability to keep, or form intimate relationships.

I hope that I don't need to provide evidence that denying such things can lead to profound states of depression, shame, anxiety, isolation, and so on.

skirtyscot wrote:...Drugging a boy up with oestrogen won't make him grow adult female body parts like girls do when they reach puberty.

I dislike the implications of your expression "drugging up", but carefully controlled doses of œstrogen do cause growth of existing breast tissue and other more-subtle physical and mental changes. A lot of this is discussed in the 'members-only' sections of transgender groups, but very little of it becomes public knowledge.

Are these the same groups that tell kids exactly what to say to the shrink to get the drugs they want? Because that's a thing, and it's putting a lot of kids (and adults) on these drugs that are regretting it later.

pelmut wrote:

skirtyscot wrote:
That doesn't answer the question. It doesn't make puberty wrong, it's just that the person doesn't like it.

It makes it wrong for that person - and as that person is the person most affected by it, their opinion is the one which counts most in that particular case.

Since when does a doctor base medications and surgical treatments on what the patient (with a mental disorder) wants? If the person's opinion is that they want opioids and anti-depressants, it's the doctor's responsibility in many cases to turn them away empty handed, for their own good. We are over prescribing darn near everything, because that's how the system makes it's money. Malpractice suits are coming, and there will be hell to pay.

pelmut wrote:

skirtyscot wrote:

dillon wrote:
Natural puberty may not be wrong, per chromosomal body traits, but may be wrong for the individual's sense of self, in particular gender. It has been well demonstrated that it is far simpler to reconcile the body to the mind than vice versa. That fact is the origin of the cliche regarding the "woman trapped in a man's body." It is not far-fetched.

...It strikes me that it would be better for the patient to be taught to accept his or her body than spend a life on medication.

That has been tried and it doesn't work - it is recognised as a form of mental abuse which causes great harm and is now illegal in most civilised countries. Why should a transgender person have to be brainwashed to satisfy the false beliefs of other people?

Some quacks did things they shouldn't have, but that doesn't make all therapy that aims to cure the mind instead of altering the body, some form of abuse.

Got to love the ad hominem attacks in there, too. So countries that allow talk therapy are now uncivilized? Any alternative therapy is brainwashing? Biological realities are just other people's "false beliefs"? Comments like that are pervasive in discussions of this stuff, probably because on some level the advocates for transgenderism know they don't have a winning rational argument.

dillon wrote:
It has been well demonstrated that it is far simpler to reconcile the body to the mind than vice versa.

Umm, no it hasn't been. At least not that I've seen. In fact there are many documented cases of where this approach has failed miserably.

Reconciling the mind should at least be an option on the table, but instead, it is illegal in some places. If this trend of outlawing therapy continues, we will never know how well this approach can work.

skirtyscot wrote:
Walking is simpler than building aeroplanes, but that didn't stop the Wright brothers. It strikes me that it would be better for the patient to be taught to accept his or her body than spend a life on medication.

Agreed. How many times do we see drugs advertised, and the side effects are worse than what it is treating? You have a rash? Here take this pill! You might die, but it will probably clear your skin up! No thank you, I'll deal with some skin irritation, or use some topical cream as needed.

The drugs used in transgender treatments are being used off label, i.e. for something other than what it was originally approved for, and without safety studies for the current use. Some were approved for end of life treatments, where the person is dying anyway. Long term risks for young people headed down this path have NOT been considered for these uses in the normal drug approval process.

The bone density thing isn't the only issue with transgender drugs either. For example, cardiovascular issues are also a concern, as shown in actual data taken from studying the transgender population:

skirtyscot wrote:
I'm doing my best to help to narrow the societal difference between men and women. When there are no gender stereotypes to go on, how will anyone be able to say they feel like they are of the opposite gender to their sex?

I agree that we need to be headed in this direction. We will never eliminate all stereotypes, however. We actually need some generalizations about people in order to get by day to day. Still, we desperately need to reduce the stranglehold that oppressive stereotypes have on society. What we here are doing with our attire is a big step in the right direction.

Skaterswaltz wrote:I’m reading the last line as favorable. Best to take it that way. Father of three and still fancy women. Maybe it does tap into a feminine side that I must have accepted down the line.
After all it is a positive shout for the gang and forum.

This is how I read it. A bit hesitant, but definitely open to what we are doing. A planted seed, being given an opportunity to grow.

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
The article was anything but supportive of us nor of the Skirt Café.

And in case there was any ambiguity in her point of view, reread her last sentence, "Do real men wear skirts?" Where's the nice? How favorably is she viewing our point of view?

I'm not a fan of the word "nice" in general, but it was a good article with an honest perspective on many things. The fact that she is open to it at all is in my mind a win.

Dust wrote:Reconciling the mind should at least be an option on the table, but instead, it is illegal in some places. If this trend of outlawing therapy continues, we will never know how well this approach can work.

Careful there.... if you actually wear skirts, make no mistake, there are people out there that probably think you need "therapy" too!

Why don't we just let trans people live their lives in peace and leave them alone? They're not hurting anyone.

To continue the poem...

Then they came after the homosexuals,
But I did not speak out, because I was not homosexual

Then they came after the transgender people,
But I did not speak out, because I was not transgender.

Then they came after the queer
But I did not speak out, because I was not queer.

pelmut wrote:A lot of this is discussed in the 'members-only' sections of transgender groups, but very little of it becomes public knowledge.

Are these the same groups that tell kids exactly what to say to the shrink to get the drugs they want?

Please tell me which groups you are referring to, I am transgender and I have never come across any.

I am a member of one of the major U.K. transgender online groups where any posts of that type would be removed immediately; the rules for a major American group are even more severe and even the mention of specific drugs is enough to get the post removed and the thread locked.

There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.