The nation’s largest gun-rights lobby called Friday for the placement of an armed police officer in every school, but parents and educators questioned how safe such a move would keep kids, whether it would be economically feasible and how it would alter student life. Their reactions ranged from supportive to disgusted.

Already, there are an estimated 10,000 sworn officers serving in schools around the country, most of them armed and employed by local police departments, according to a membership association for the officers. Still, they’re deployed at only a fraction of the country’s approximately 98,000 public schools, and their numbers have declined during the economic downturn. Some departments have increased police presence at schools since last week’s shooting rampage at a Connecticut elementary school that left 26 dead, but say they can only do so temporarily because of funding.

The National Rifle Association said at a news conference that it wants Congress to fund armed officers in every American school, breaking its silence on the Connecticut shootings. The idea made sense to some anxious parents and teachers, but provoked outright anger in others.

“Their solution to resolve the issue around guns is to put more guns in the equation?” said Superintendent Hank Grishman of the Jericho, N.Y., schools on Long Island, who has been an educator for 44 years. “If anything it would be less safe for kids. You would be putting them in the midst of potentially more gunfire.”

Where school resource officers are already in place, they help foster connections between the schools and police, and often develop a close enough relationship with parents and children that they feel comfortable coming forward with information that could prevent a threat, said Mo Canady, executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers.

[…]

Around the country, school systems sometimes rotate armed officers through schools or supplement them with unarmed safety agents. New York City’s school district is the largest in the country with more than 1 million students. The NYPD has 350 armed officers who rotate throughout the school system, and they’re supplemented by unarmed safety personnel who also report to the department. In Philadelphia, school officials have rejected armed patrols in city schools and instead use unarmed school police.

In rural Blount County, Ala., a tobacco tax is used to fund a squad of nine armed sheriff’s deputies and a supervisor who are assigned to work inside the system’s 16 schools on a full-time basis, superintendent Jim Carr said Friday. They also assist in sports games and other after-school events.

Armed guards in schools is another leg down the shit hole for this culture. It’s an admission of failure. A rather complete one at that. First destroy the schools. Then turn them into armed camps. It’s not a serious answer. It’s a deflection. And one that is essentially impossible. Who pays for this? Even volunteers need training, one hopes psych evaluations as well. Who pays for this in poor districts? “We” don’t pay for armed guards in malls. Merchants do.

I have to put my foot down about adding any additional security anywhere. It’s getting to be stupid and a real pain in the ass for Americans to get on with their lives with peace of mind just so some gun enthusiast’s right to own an at-hand arsenal is preserved.
I guess you would have to have kids growing up in a post 9-11 world to understand how ubiquitous the security issue has become.
Enough is enough. It’s time to disarm America. Having a single non-assault revolver or rifle in your house for protection or hunting is fine. Anything more than that violates other people’s right to liberty.

If there were a bunch of incidents of pedophiles coming in and molesting kids at school you can bet your bippy that parents would be demanding cops on every campus. The same thing if some terrorist used homemade poison gas or firebombs to murder some school kids.

Do we need police or armed guards at our schools? That’s debatable. I believe that in most cases we don’t. School shootings are statistically rare, especially at K-5 schools. Most of the school shootings we do have involve gang activity, not homicidal nutjobs.

But if the problem is so bad that we have to take away most or all of the guns in this country, then yes, we need police or armed guards on every single campus. We already have them just about everywhere else. And yes, it will cost money. Lots of money. Think of it as another government jobs program.

Anything we do about the problem with gun violence will cost money. If this is really an urgent problem then putting cops or security guards at every school is the only immediate remedy.

Let’s say we ban all guns. No new ones allowed, and people are required to turn in the guns they already have. There are at least 100 million guns out there right now, maybe as many as 300 million. Nobody is quite sure how many guns there are or who has them.

Assume we passed this law and it passed constitutional muster (which would probably require repealing the Second Amendment) and it took effect today. How many gun owners would turn in their guns? How many would simply ignore the law? You can bet the criminals won’t cooperate.

How to we collect all those guns out there? Do we send the cops out to look for them? What if the gun owner claims he/she lost the guns or they were stolen? Do the cops get to search their homes? What about using metal detectors to look for buried weapons in their backyards?

How much to you think enforcing a gun ban would cost? How long would it take for a gun ban to significantly reduce the number of firearms in the country? What do we do to protect our children between the passage of the gun ban and it taking full effect?

There are similar issues and questions regarding a major revamping of our laws concerning the mentally ill.

During the 80’s there was a big child molestation scare involving preschools and allegations of Satanic cults engaging in ritual pedophilia. People thought child molestation was a growing problem but statistics show that pedophilia rates remained stable. Despite parents’ fears, stranger abductions are rare and most cases of pedophilia involve someone known and trusted by the parents and children.

One final thought – what else is going on while the media and the Obama administration try to whip up hysteria over last week’s tragedy? Gun control is a really big squirrel.

69 Responses to TANSTAAFL – Gun Control Edition

Cheese and Rice! Honestly, I posted on facebook a couple days after the CT shooting about hiring unemployed vets to guard the schools- and I still think it is a damn good idea. With psych testing of course.
What the hell is wrong with people that they can not see (or won’t admit) that these shootings happen in supposed gun free zones?
More gun control laws are not the answer. Better enforcement? Yes. Better mental health CARE (insurance does not cover what is needed imo- ins just pays for drugs)
And while we are at it, perhaps going back to teaching- actually TEACHING- common values in school would be good. And NO they don’t teach values in school. Lovely vague platitudes and posting the “rules” for each classroom is not cutting it. Letting students “suggest” the rules and “vote” on them is bs as well. Children should not be making rules or voting on them. But then I have always felt negotiating or arguing with children is the same as negotiating with terrorists. Give them an inch and they’ll take whatever the hell they want.

I agree that’s a good idea. Let communities decide if their schools need an armed guard, and let them budget & hire. Or if they decide it makes more sense for them to have a some staff/teachers w/ CC permits be armed. Let the local community decide.
And what’s equally important, let parents vote with their feet by letting them decide which school to send their kids to.

The biggest threat of violence in my local schools is from the parents towards the teachers. They come in pissed off that child custody court orders are being enforced and they can’t take the kid out and disappear, or that the kid is not “excelling” to the standard that the parent thinks they should, or that the kid beat someone up, was punished and now the parent is out for payback. If parents refuse to act civilized is it any wonder that their kids are having trouble doing the same.

With all this talk about banning guns and new laws about gun control. Not one single reporter has bothered to mention that our own government distributed weapons grade military style guns to known bad guys during the Fast and Furious Program that was swept under the rug.

I worked in a school that had a full-time armed policeman on duty. The police department chose carefully, and the guy fit right in. Lots of kids didn’t get into trouble because the scuttlebut somehow managed to reach his ears, and he warned them off at the pass. It was also very effective if you were chronically late, and he showed up in his cruiser to offer you a ride to school. The District Attorney’s office also funded “Saturday Morning School” for kids who had infractions of the school rules to make amends for, but unlike “The Breakfast Club” where kids were supposed to sit and stare at the wall for hours, they paid teachers to be there to help kids make up work they’d missed or needed more instruction for, and they paid someone to keep the library open. Pretty soon kids who weren’t in trouble started showing up, too. The young teachers signed up in droves to work because it was a great way to earn some extra money to help pay off school loans. No armed gunman ever tried to get into the school, but having Officer Bernie in the school was a totally positive experience. Whatever it cost, it was worth it.

I don’t understand the resistance? We have armed guards at malls, airports, banks, museums. Apparently it is morally okay to protect our stuff, but not our children.

Where I live we have armed guards…at our football games. It kind of annoys me, because once again it shows our priorities. Football is important, it’s economically valuable, it’s what we care about. Keeping kids safe at school is not so important, but we can’t have violence at football games or people won’t go.

I think people have the image in their heads of a policeman in full riot gear standing at the door with an AK-47 as the kids enter and exit the building. Cops who get assigned to schools typically get involved with the kids in the school day. They’re much more effective at keeping schools drug-free than the DARE program has proved to be. Our school cop noticed things like girls with bruises and black eyes and would talk to them about “love isn’t supposed to hurt”. He would challenge the taggers to an “art contest” on approved walls. Of course, then he could recognize their style when graffiti showed up on “unapproved walls”. lol He seemed to know when there was going to be a keg party, and he’d show up before it got started and stop it before the kids got into trouble. Did he catch everything? No. But a lot of kids graduated without criminal records because he was there.

Guns are almost 800 years old. They’re really, really easy to make. You can even make really good ones with a pretty simple machine shop. Similarly bullets and powder are easy. Guns are not like nukes, which themselves are not that hard, but some parts of it take some expertise and special materials. Guns are like sharp sticks. Almost anyone can make them. Sorry kids, the cat’s out of the bag. Guns are here forever.

In the US we kind have this idea that guns are the worst thing human beings have ever created and that gun violence is the greatest evil ever. LOL, are so blessed to have that perception! Seriously, the kind of atrocities that other people see all over the world that have nothing to do with guns, really puts that view back in perspective.

LOL Tommy- heavy duty prescription for back spasms.
Me? Exercise? Nope. I walk or swim. I do a set of exercises to stretch so the sciatic nerve doesn’t flare. And I do some strengthening exercises. All under duress- I hate exercise- but if I don’t do them my back seizes up.

That was good! I always find it odd, in places where they have strict gun control, Norway, Mexico, places in Africa, they have atrocious gun violence.

Really sad in Norway where that monster killed 77 people. What could anybody do to stop him? Nobody had a gun! Reading some of the articles was just horrifying. There was nothing anybody could do to defend themselves or to protect others. What do you do when a madman shows up with a gun, hellbent on shooting people? If nobody is armed for miles and miles around, than you can’t do anything except count the bodies. You are completely powerless and vulnerable.

Children aren’t terrified at banks , malls , hospitals ,etc. etc. either ,where does this assumption come from ? From people who never take their children to those places ? mmhmm sure they don’t .

Interesting side note , on Up Yours with Chris Hayes this morning his attempt to push the gun control memes was totally derailed by the representatives from the black community who pointed out to him that gun control laws were initiated originally to deprive blacks of guns after the civil war , and again after Black Panthers showed up carrying assault weapons , It was also pointed out to him that the black community depended on having a gun in the house because they could not depend on the police showing up to protect them. That was such a pleasure to watch LOL

They will never be happy. In countries where they have already banned guns, now they are banning knives and putting cameras on every street. They talk about compromise, but it is never a compromise. It is never, wow, you offer a quick, easy, inexpensive, viable solution to ending mass shootings in schools, let’s try that. It is always, what can we take from you this time, or what will enable us to grow some federal apparatus?

in my lifetime, I have been in situations that involved shooting and bombs
1 shooting we went to see a friend who was moonlighting as a bartender. woman came crying due to a domestic dispute. our friend called the cops, her husband tried to come into the bar . my husband and another friend held the door so he could not come in. yelling hit the floor he has a gun. ever try to hit the floor 7 months pregnant? it ain’t easy. he shot through the small window in the door and hit our friend who was on the phone. OUr friend was a fireman whose station connected with a police station. I never saw so many cops come at one time in my life. Our friend was taken to the hospital and was ok. he lost his job because of his off duty job. the shooter got off with a dollar fine and no jail time.

2 bombing while working in Penn Station some fruitcake with a political view planted a bomb in the bag room over where I was working. whole station evacuated except me. they forgot I was working in the back room of the ticket receivers office. thank God for the NYPD bomb squad the dismantled the bomb and kept it from going off.

I am writing this because in life everyone will run in to situation that they can not control. You can take all the safeguards in the world but if some nut is determined bad things will happen. All the screaming and knashing of teeth will not change that fact of life. All you can do is try to make every day of your life the best one you can.

Funny my closest “scare” came at DC’s Union Station where we had a layover between trains.

Me and my 12 year old were sitting in the concourse, but I was letting her pop in and out of the shops within my sight while I guarded the luggage. After she popped into a little toy store……

A SWAT team came barrelling in all doors to the concourse holding their guns over their heads pointed towards the ceiling and screaming “get down, get down, get down” ….. as everyone did in their tracks, me behind my bench. They all went into that little toy store my kid just disappeared into…….boy, Mama Grizzly mode kicked in and I started screaming too “MY CHILD’s IN THERE”. An employee from the shop I was next too came out and told me, it’s okay, it’s just a drill. GEEESH !

The SWAT finally came out with a guy in cuffs, then out of the building. My child never saw anything so cool, they actually grabbed this guy, threw him on the floor, wrapped his hands like a rodeo calf and put a gun to his head before they frog marched him out of the station.

That was in the early 90’s and to this day I never did find out if it was a “drill” or the shopkeeper was just trying to keep me calm. Do you remember such drills Helen ?

most of the time the public never knew when drills were happening. poor public relations to let passengers know there was danger.
between working for a newspaper and working for the railroad, bombs threats became a part of life. that sounds weird but when someone did not like an article the newspaper would get a bomb threat. When some fool wanted to make a name for themselves or a political statement the railroad would get bomb threats.
I had to notify a conductor to move the passengers from a car, where a man trying to escape from a murder and the police were at the next station. You do it quietly and swiftly so there is no panic and most of the time the passengers never know anything about it.
You can not live your life in fear. You take all the precautions you can but you live your life. Nobody comes back for seconds so do with what you have and make it a good one

If I were a parent, I would want my child to be safe in school. Let’s discuss how we can accomplish that in a civilized manner. I love the “disbelief” at the NRA’s proposal. It shows how fucked up our society is. We all want to be safe, but we don’t want anything that opposes our own beliefs. I used to support gun control until 9/11 and our nation’s reaction to it. America lost its moral compass, and I do not trust our ruling class.

It’s become another social wedge issue that’s tearing us apart in political discussions. Wish the old lefties would go back to protesting wars which we’re still losing thousands of civilians to, especially with Obama’s drones. Cutting loose some of that money might justify the extra funds to put a little extra security at our schools.

The media’s forgetting to mention that the shooter did try and buy a gun at a sporting goods store. When he refused to the background (mental ?) check and waiting period, the store refused to sell him the gun. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work.

Also, I think it was in response to Columbine, Clinton found the funding for school safety and security, but it was Obama who let it dry up.

See, the government tyranny cheerleaders start from the false premise that GUNS are the problem. When you start out with such an utterly false and biased starting point, of course you conclude that “more guns” is ridiculous. Even the way they state that “more guns” shows they fail to recognize that the gun is an inanimate object controlled by a sentient being — whether a mentally ill person who kills little children or a security officer who protects them. No, to them the mere presence of a gun endangers children because to them the gun acts independently.

BTW — LaPierre’s suggestion is nothing new. I went to private elementary & high schools that had armed security. The children of our politicians go to schools that have armed security. Yet these fools fail to see that it is only the schools the rabble’s children attend that the politicians have an issue with having armed security details. They must actually trust the government to protect their children, which makes them doubly foolish.

Also, LaPierre’s suggestion of having armed security details at schools was only one part of his 20 minute speech — he also questioned the treatment of the mentally ill, the glorification of violence by the entertainment media and the “flooding the zone” coverage the news media gives to these types of incidents, which provides these madmen with the “fame” they seek. I noticed the media hasn’t chosen to focus on any of these things. No small wonder why, is it?

I’ve been saying this a lot, but I’ll say it again — the 2nd Amendment is written clearly, in plain English: because the government needs to maintain an armed militia, the people’s right to bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed. This is a cause and effect thing — since the government will have guns, the people shall and *not* the perverted reading the cheerleaders (who apparently are ignorant of the rules of grammar) for tyranny give it. Yet, I’d bet the farm these same people will fight tooth and nail to “protect” the right to privacy upon which such cases as Roe v. Wade is based, which isn’t actually written in plain English in the Constitution, but instead comes from vague “penumbras.” Hypocrites or mentally lazy idealogues or both — don’t know, don’t care. I’m exhausted by the stupidity.