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Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Green is absolutely a score within the offense guy. That's why he's struggling so much, because the offense isn't being run, and he hasn't even been given the correct role. Anytime you give Green the ball and tell him to play outside of the offense is when you see massive mistakes.

Green is good at running of screens for spot up jumps, getting in position for postups with nice fadeaway jumpers, and cuts for nice finishes at the rim. Ask him to create and his head will explode.

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When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Lets all take a step back can we please on Roy Hibbert.

This is what Roys 5th season? This is a guy that dealt with Obrien for 3.5 years of his career and many know the negative impact that created with Danny. He went from a tough nosed player to primarily a 3 pt shooter and digressed from there. he is only now developing more into vintage Artest and not Peja.

Many of us i think felt Obrien along with poor pg play and a lack of a structured offense all had to do with Roys lack of develpment to some degree.

now he has the max contract and some will say that is the problem. i think primarily in perception fans expect more from a MAX player. imo Hibbert is worth 10M with the duration of his worth around 13 M prob by time it expires. he is not rediculously overpaid but the term Max implies it.

i think intelligent pacer fans knew this was a possibility. Hibbert did not dominate the Magic last year with no D12.

Hibbert is PAID for his D. I believe we will appreciate Hibbert more in the PLAYOFFS because thats when it becomes a half-court game. Hibbs expectations based on the playoffs and a max contract and all the swooning he rcd and i think he just hasnt found his niche. He will perform well in the PLAYOFFS. a big man like him will pay dividends defensively.

i wonder if his physical regime has been changed and the extra weight is affecting his overall game. i think Hibbert will be fine but one issue i would really like the pacers to resolve is getting a BIGMAN coach. i really believe it would be worth the investment.

for example, Hibbert wanted to shoot before a gaem he said and Vogel was the only guy he could get to work with him. Are the pacers that cheap they cannot get a big man coach or is there no one to be found.

Get our max center a big man coach that can help him develop his game and serve as a mentor throughout the season. There has to be someone available that would be an ideal fit.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

This is what Roys 5th season? This is a guy that dealt with Obrien for 3.5 years of his career and many know the negative impact that created with Danny. He went from a tough nosed player to primarily a 3 pt shooter and digressed from there. he is only now developing more into vintage Artest and not Peja.

Many of us i think felt Obrien along with poor pg play and a lack of a structured offense all had to do with Roys lack of develpment to some degree.

now he has the max contract and some will say that is the problem. i think primarily in perception fans expect more from a MAX player. imo Hibbert is worth 10M with the duration of his worth around 13 M prob by time it expires. he is not rediculously overpaid but the term Max implies it.

i think intelligent pacer fans knew this was a possibility. Hibbert did not dominate the Magic last year with no D12.

Hibbert is PAID for his D. I believe we will appreciate Hibbert more in the PLAYOFFS because thats when it becomes a half-court game. Hibbs expectations based on the playoffs and a max contract and all the swooning he rcd and i think he just hasnt found his niche. He will perform well in the PLAYOFFS. a big man like him will pay dividends defensively.

i wonder if his physical regime has been changed and the extra weight is affecting his overall game. i think Hibbert will be fine but one issue i would really like the pacers to resolve is getting a BIGMAN coach. i really believe it would be worth the investment.

for example, Hibbert wanted to shoot before a gaem he said and Vogel was the only guy he could get to work with him. Are the pacers that cheap they cannot get a big man coach or is there no one to be found.

Get our max center a big man coach that can help him develop his game and serve as a mentor throughout the season. There has to be someone available that would be an ideal fit.

before houston got him, i wanted the pacers to get kevin mchale to work with roy. mchale was one of the all-time greats working in the post. unfortunately, that didn't happen.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

I don't think people expect from Hibbert things other max contracts do. Nobody expected him to be a 20 ppg player. But is it too much too ask for at least the same ppg as last season or a slight better rebounding ( although that admittedly doesn't hurt the team a lot)?
The money he gets is too much for what he offers. Thanks to Portland we were forced to offer that amount cause we all know how difficult is to find good players in that position.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Trust me I want to see Granger along side of George just as much as anyone else. This team is showing they can compete and be a good team without him, if we are going to have a money problem in the future with signing George and some of the others because of the cap then why not get younger in the process. I fear we are going to lose lance right at the time he finally REALLY breaks out. He will never be the player granger is but we are going to have a HUGE gaping hole at PF here very soon. Why not use our chips and get the best player possible to play along side George for the next 5 years.

Because we aim to go deep in the playoffs now. To go deep in the playoffs we need an actual offense. Granger is the guy that gives us that kind of offense.

If the plan is to be good in 2-3 years (when PG is in his prime) then I can see your reasoning. But by then everyone will be saying that we are the new Atlanta Hawks and that we should blow it up.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Because we aim to go deep in the playoffs now. To go deep in the playoffs we need an actual offense. Granger is the guy that gives us that kind of offense.

If the plan is to be good in 2-3 years (when PG is in his prime) then I can see your reasoning. But by then everyone will be saying that we are the new Atlanta Hawks and that we should blow it up.

Call me crazy, but if Granger returns to form (or close to it) by playoffs and PG is playing at the level he is now...I think we can make a very very deep run in the playoffs. And by "very deep run" I mean possibly win it.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

This is what Roys 5th season? This is a guy that dealt with Obrien for 3.5 years of his career and many know the negative impact that created with Danny. He went from a tough nosed player to primarily a 3 pt shooter and digressed from there. he is only now developing more into vintage Artest and not Peja.

Many of us i think felt Obrien along with poor pg play and a lack of a structured offense all had to do with Roys lack of develpment to some degree.

now he has the max contract and some will say that is the problem. i think primarily in perception fans expect more from a MAX player. imo Hibbert is worth 10M with the duration of his worth around 13 M prob by time it expires. he is not rediculously overpaid but the term Max implies it.

i think intelligent pacer fans knew this was a possibility. Hibbert did not dominate the Magic last year with no D12.

Hibbert is PAID for his D. I believe we will appreciate Hibbert more in the PLAYOFFS because thats when it becomes a half-court game. Hibbs expectations based on the playoffs and a max contract and all the swooning he rcd and i think he just hasnt found his niche. He will perform well in the PLAYOFFS. a big man like him will pay dividends defensively.

i wonder if his physical regime has been changed and the extra weight is affecting his overall game. i think Hibbert will be fine but one issue i would really like the pacers to resolve is getting a BIGMAN coach. i really believe it would be worth the investment.

for example, Hibbert wanted to shoot before a gaem he said and Vogel was the only guy he could get to work with him. Are the pacers that cheap they cannot get a big man coach or is there no one to be found.

Get our max center a big man coach that can help him develop his game and serve as a mentor throughout the season. There has to be someone available that would be an ideal fit.

Roy Hibbert is a better player than a D only stiff. He has a better feel for the game, touch, free throw shooting and even ability to pass than he has displayed so far this season. Roy got called out by a 2 year player, Larry Sanders, for not being able to handle any contact in the post. Next game vs the Bucks Hibby played the same. Were is the fire when he would go up against Bynum and Lopez or anyone who challenged him? I'm not asking for 20 and 10, I'm asking for Roy to do the things he's good at and quit hesitating and falling on the ground.

O'Brien has nothing to do with anything at this point. That excuse is long gone.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Call me crazy, but if Granger returns to form (or close to it) by playoffs and PG is playing at the level he is now...I think we can make a very very deep run in the playoffs. And by "very deep run" I mean possibly win it.

I agree there is a chance. But that would also require our top 7 guys (starters plus Lance, Mahinmi) to play almost all of our minutes, because it's not like the other members of our bench can be counted on.I also think that Hibbert will need to play a more efficient game or give half his shots to the other four starters.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Green is absolutely a score within the offense guy. That's why he's struggling so much, because the offense isn't being run, and he hasn't even been given the correct role. Anytime you give Green the ball and tell him to play outside of the offense is when you see massive mistakes.

Green is good at running of screens for spot up jumps, getting in position for postups with nice fadeaway jumpers, and cuts for nice finishes at the rim. Ask him to create and his head will explode.

Amen! If I could thank this 1.000.000 times, I'd do it.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Call me crazy, but if Granger returns to form (or close to it) by playoffs and PG is playing at the level he is now...I think we can make a very very deep run in the playoffs. And by "very deep run" I mean possibly win it.

I won't call you crazy. If those conditions are met then we will indeed be a very tough team to beat.

I remember clearly that during the last season I had a post that explained my "3 year plan":

Year 1: Get at least to the 2nd round and put up a good fight.

Year 2: Get to the ECF.

Year 3: Get to the Finals or better.

I haven't given up on my year 2 expectation yet. Yes, several things have changed (Bird is no longer here, for example) but seeing our surge without Granger makes me optimistic that if we don't draw Miami in the 2nd round we could reach the ECF.

Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Are we still trying to blame JOB for Roy's struggles?

At one point do we say either

A.) we're expecting too much of Roy

or

B.) He's not doing what he needs to do.

I think A is probably the more likely answer, and I like the guy a lot I mean heck I wore his jersey to the Wiz game and have owned one for several years, he is still a player I like, but can we please treat him like every other player? Jim O'Brien is not an incurable disease, he's just a dude that coached here for several really unsuccessful years, he's not part of Roy's issues anymore, whatever they are. And if he is part of Roy's issues still, well then we have a HUGE problem

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Are we still trying to blame JOB for Roy's struggles?At one point do we say either

A.) we're expecting too much of Roy

or

B.) He's not doing what he needs to do.

I think A is probably the more likely answer, and I like the guy a lot I mean heck I wore his jersey to the Wiz game and have owned one for several years, he is still a player I like, but can we please treat him like every other player? Jim O'Brien is not an incurable disease, he's just a dude that coached here for several really unsuccessful years, he's not part of Roy's issues anymore, whatever they are. And if he is part of Roy's issues still, well then we have a HUGE problem

He was a horrible horrible horrible coach.

However there should be a statute of limitations as to how long we can blame him for certain players styles. Frank Vogel is the Anti-O'Brien and I will quote Roy when he said he would run through a wall for him. So that means to me that Frank is doing the right things and saying the right things to get Hibbert on his side.

It now is up to Hibbert to work on his own game.

So what I'm saying is that while I hated Jim O'Brien like I've never hated a coach before, even I am more than willing to say that we can't be blaming him for Roy's current condition.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Roy performs at the same offensive level as last season and keeps up his defense I'm completely fine with him making the money he does. People love to heap praise on Tyson Chandler, and it's deserved, but he makes basically the same money as Roy. Swap the two and each team is probably worse off, but no one seems to have a problem with Chandler doing nothing on offense but cleaning up junk. Is it the wrist injury? I don't know. Is that a BS excuse to shield him from criticism? I doubt it, but it's possible.

I just know until Roy got paid there wasn't a person on the planet that had a bad thing to say about him. Let's see how much we love Paul George in 18 months.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Call me crazy, but if Granger returns to form (or close to it) by playoffs and PG is playing at the level he is now...I think we can make a very very deep run in the playoffs. And by "very deep run" I mean possibly win it.

I love this sentiment. It could happen. Danny needs to be of course playing well.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

I don't buy the wrist injury thing. Roy has missed too many bunnies and free throws and done too many other things to convince me that it is psychological.

This is nothing new. Roy has been streaky, an on and off head case, since the beginning.

I think he will snap out of it. I've posted this before, but we'll know in four years if his contract was worth it . . . by how he times his hot and cold streaks with the playoffs.

I really am beginning to think that Roy needs to develope his game around the 10 foot area. Not with hooks but with
turn around step back jumpers or just face up jumpers. He has a soft touch on his jumpers. His odd hook shots are awful. He does not have the strength to keep people from pushing him away from his spot or while taking a hook shot.
That is not working. Smits was the master of the short jump shot for a big man.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

Call me crazy, but if Granger returns to form (or close to it) by playoffs and PG is playing at the level he is now...I think we can make a very very deep run in the playoffs. And by "very deep run" I mean possibly win it.

You are crazy..... and so am I!

"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

This is true. But it is better than people who think he is overpaid and willing to use every single game as evidence of it.

He scored 5 points. That's our "max" player we're talking about. I'm disappointed that he worked on nothing over the summer. I'd like to see him at least 10 points a night with his good defense.
He scored 15 points. It was nice to see him make a good game, but he still missed some easy shots. A max player should be able to score 20 given his shots.
Pulled 4 rebounds? Roy is the softest max player in the league.
8 rebounds? It was nice to see Hibbert grab a few boards but as a max player I'd like to see him grab at least 10 a night

I'm pretty tired of the "max" buzzword. While technically true it doesn't serve to compare his salary around the NBA very well.

Last edited by aamcguy; 01-04-2013 at 01:54 PM.
Reason: used 'NBA' instead of 'salary'

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Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

I say they make Roy take on other responsibilities to make up some of the money he is overpayed. I think that Dance Team Coordinator, and Social Networking Coordinator. (or is he already doing those jobs?)

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

He does not have the strength to keep people from pushing him away from his spot or while taking a hook shot.

I think strength is the wrong word here as it suggests that if Roy just got stronger he would do better, which I don't think is necessarily the case. I think it is more of a balance issue, than a strength issue.

Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

However there should be a statute of limitations as to how long we can blame him for certain players styles. Frank Vogel is the Anti-O'Brien and I will quote Roy when he said he would run through a wall for him. So that means to me that Frank is doing the right things and saying the right things to get Hibbert on his side.

It now is up to Hibbert to work on his own game.

So what I'm saying is that while I hated Jim O'Brien like I've never hated a coach before, even I am more than willing to say that we can't be blaming him for Roy's current condition.

I think Jimmy and Roy are responsible for Roy's confidence issues. I'm not even blaming JOB here, just the wrong personality mesh. Roy seems to be a "bit" of a gentle giant, and I don't think he could mentally handle JOB. But it's not JOB's fault anymore. Roy needs to get over it. I just think that's where the confidence issues come from. He's just not very mentally tough.

I also completely by the injury issue. And I think it's likely worse than what's been reported. Roy went through hot and cold streaks before, but this is honestly different. He's a good offensive player, and has been for the two seasons before this.