VL and Strip to the Core still ridiculous...

The issue is not that it is too easy to get....the issue isn't even really the amount of resources that you get...the problem is that once planets are double stripped to asteroid belts, everyone else is hosed...

Multiple games now I have seen a VL player able to drag games on forever even when massively outnumbered and out done in economy...so long as they have enough fleet to deal with a fully upgraded SB (which is not that hard), all they have to do is jump to a world, eat it, and move on before they get caught...eat it again, and no one can ever colonize it....

Last night I played a 5v5 where 3 of our players got wiped...yet the game still continued for about 6 hours because one of our two players was VL...even with wormholes and 5 fleets in 5 different locations, the other team struggled trying to catch the VL fleet...even with no kostura, the VL can just keep moving moving moving, eating planets and avoiding fleets like none other...

The concept of this strategy is actually quite cool....it is unique, and I think it should stay...the problem is that 2 players can take on 5 will relative ease...

The VL eats planets while the other player just survives...since the VL can be anywhere rather quickly, it is exceptionally hard to wipe the 2nd player...even if 3 or 4 players team up on them, they'll be facing an entrenched player with titan + SB and the VL's orky...oh, and the VL can jump back at any time to assist...if the 5 man team doesn't try to break the entrenched player, they'll just waste time chasing the VL fleet of doom that can be anywhwere, anytime...

Having been on both sides of the issue (facing VL pulling this crap and being allied to VL doing this), I find that it is extremely difficult to counter, especially if players drop....more to the point, any other factions (so not Vasari) stuck in a 2v5 would never come even close to being as succesful as the VL planet eating strategy...when you are the only faction that can handle a 2v5, I think it is fair to say you are OP...and heavne forbid if 2 VLs tagged teamed and stripped the galaxy...

So, how does this get fixed? I think the solution is actually quite simple: Stripped to the core does not remove the ability to colonize...

I suggest that when a planet is stripped (Terran, desert, ice, volcanic, moon), it becomes an asteroid (not dead)...if an asteroid, dead asteroid, or pirate base are stripped, the entity simply stays the same....this is extremely easy to implement and requires no engine changes, just entity file changes...if you remove the effect and give no resources, "Stripping" an asteroid, dead asteroid, or pirate base basically is just like normal disbanding (only difference is a string saying you are stripping)...

How does this solve the problem? Well, the players still have asteroids to colonize, and therefore still can stay in the game just fine...since the VL won't be able to guard each and every asteroid, the attrition strategy doesn't work out when seriously outnumbered...when the teams are equal, Stripping is still an effective strategy...if slighlty outnumbered, stripping can really wittle the enemy down via attrition and pull an underdog victory...but if the game keeps dragging on, the VL can eventually be brought down since the enemy will always be able to have something to colonize and build structures on...

As a last comment, I think it is crucial planets strip to asteroid instead of dead asteroid...right now the dead asteroid is basically almost as bad as asteroid belts (though it still makes it hard to actually wipe a player) and furthermore, it seriously biases the late game against Advent...TEC have development mandate and can build units via SBs, but Advent can't do anything....

Numbers just need some tweaking thats all. You have to keep in mind they are sacrificing their entire economy for a burst. If they run out of money they lose.

Its just like how people think TAR is OP, but its really just a tradeoff. (IMO tar isnt even that good). Imo stripped should have its numbers tweaked proportionally to how many trade ports can fit logistically. For example 3000 for Asteroids(3 ports), 9000 for Deserts(9 Ports). Economically it makes sense and won't give to high of an advantage. Keep in mind using Strip is the equivalent to a starcraft 2 all-in.

The point of this thread isn't to bitch about Strip to the Core, the point is to provide legitimate improvements that can solve the issue...

One player can't hold every gravity well on a large map...if you can't deny your enemy places to colonize, you can't wipe them off the map and eventually they will overcome the VL by having an actual economy...that the map is left as dead asteroids or asteroid belts I find to be the very source of the issue because the VL truly can pick off players one by one and wipe them...then, everone else has the same issue that VL has (no planets) except VL got all those untaxed resources...

Bait the VL fleet if you outnumber them 3-2. Bring in 2 fleets and keep the third 2-3 jumps out from the target system, when his buddy gets overwhelmed and calls for backup jump in the third to engage the VL fleet and all 3 fleets go strictly for the titan and keep it disabled. That'd be my plan anyway.

Late game though, couldn't you gain a lot of resources from trade ports on SBs? Guess that makes things difficult if he hops around blowing them up.

Wouldn't someone VR or VL be able to catch and destroy a VL fleet? Particularly if his allies could use his phase lanes.

5v5 is a large map, where the V mobility helps tremendously in the end game. It should be far less of a problem in say, a 3v3.

I know the V have so many ways of creating phase lanes, it can be frustrating trying to blow them all up, between the Titan, Marauder, Phase stabilizers, Orkies, Kostura Cannon.

Personally I wonder how long it will be before each faction has some sort of phase stabilizer, it's so powerful on a large map. Or perhaps PJIs could be made much more useful by denying the use of phase stabilizer incoming jumps.

To me, it sounds like the problem is VLs mobility combined with SttC rather then just SttC.

Late game though, couldn't you gain a lot of resources from trade ports on SBs? Guess that makes things difficult if he hops around blowing them up.

It's a very expensive endeavor, and you are actually much better off wiping the other players rather than investing in SBs that can get picked off...VL can get strip and kostura long before you'd be able to feasibly SB most planets...

5v5 is a large map, where the V mobility helps tremendously in the end game. It should be far less of a problem in say, a 3v3.

The larger maps overwhelming favor Vasari, and I do agree that the strategy wouldn't be as effective in a 2v2 or 3v3...this is the reason I advocate the changes that I do...it doesn't nerf strip to oblivion, it doesn't make it useless on smaller maps, it only prevents it from reaching ridiculous levels on the larger maps...

Bait the VL fleet if you outnumber them 3-2. Bring in 2 fleets and keep the third 2-3 jumps out from the target system, when his buddy gets overwhelmed and calls for backup jump in the third to engage the VL fleet and all 3 fleets go strictly for the titan and keep it disabled. That'd be my plan anyway.

Doesn't work in practice...entrenched player has 2 SBs (his own and orky from VL) plus a fleet vs. 2 fleets....entrenched player is going to win....3v2 just favors the defenders even more, 4v2 still probably isn't going to win (though you at least might be able to snipe some high level caps)...

The thing is that the VL fleet will likely be the strongest in the game....even if an eco player fleets up big time, the VL and his entrenched ally are facing more ships every time you attack and are likely to have higher level caps/titan...it won't always be the case but VL fleets are getting lots of XP from destroying structures, planets, and SBs...

Put things in perspective, consider the last battle in a game where this happened...

It was my mid-level ragnarov, 6 mid to high level caps (ranging from lvl 5 to 9), a fully upgraded TEC SB, a fully upgraded Orky, and 50 percherons vs. 4 fleets (two AR, one TR, one TL) all individually bigger than mine...nearly all the enemy frigates were wiped, and almost all their caps...only things left at the end were SBs, my carriers, and titans...and that was a 4v1...the only reason I lost was because the VL player had left the game, had they still been in we would have cleaned house and the enemy fleets trying to assault my HW...

And that's assuming they were even willing to attack my HW...VL could have continued just eating planets which, though it would have taken awhile, would have inevitably lead to victory....

Didn't Yarlen say that in the next patch (the one that breaks saves) there were going to be more changes to stripped to the core- most notably changes that make it possible for enemies to potentially recapture their planet before it's gone forever?

Thought I remembered him forecasting changes in the vein of making it take longer to strip planets & so on.

I'm a little confused by what you're describing in the opening post. It seems at first like the problem is just that in a 2v5 situation, 2 VL are really difficult to catch in order to win the game - which I totally agree with - it's a more annoying version of what people who refuse to concede can do with VL. BUT, then you start talking about how even in a 2v5 situation, the 2 VL still manage to beat and eat planets of the other 5 players late game. This is where I'm lost. If 5 are late game and chasing 2 VL, you'd think they'd have decent fleets themselves and at least enough culture down to prevent any planet eating along with phase jump inhibitors, defenses etc. so that they have to keep on the run. The most OP stuff about VL was that they'd eat their own planets early game and get a huge eco jump start and then just blitz everyone, which I thought was fixed in the latest patch by increasing the STTC requirements and pushing it to the later game. Maybe post the replay if you have it - might make it easier to see how much was STTC and how much was due to something the 5 opposing players did or didn't do.

Bait the VL fleet if you outnumber them 3-2. Bring in 2 fleets and keep the third 2-3 jumps out from the target system, when his buddy gets overwhelmed and calls for backup jump in the third to engage the VL fleet and all 3 fleets go strictly for the titan and keep it disabled. That'd be my plan anyway.

Doesn't work in practice...entrenched player has 2 SBs (his own and orky from VL) plus a fleet vs. 2 fleets....entrenched player is going to win....

Except for the orky though, those SB are stationary, so except their fighters, they can be left until after the defending fleet and orky is taken out, could even send bombers to exclusively deal with stationary SB while the main fleet fights mobile targets elsewhere. If they want to fight on top of the SB you could open up a patch of planet far away from the SB and start nailing it hard (but its likely they have bombardment protection on the SB) or get some structure bashers and leave em just out of range and start chipping away at the orky and force the enemy fleet to move away from the safety of the SSB to engage, and have the fleet ready to blap em as they leave the protective fire of the SSB. Just do what you have to to take away their combined firepower advantage. If they're all orkies and fleet kite em or use both fleets to force them to split up and divide and conquer, kill of their support while you make circles around the gravity well then take out the rest. You could even jump in the first fleet and have them kite the main force way on teh other side of the planet then jump in the second force and start attacking any stationary SB or move to pinch their fleet between you and take out their orkys from the backside.

I mini-dumped so the recording is probably bad. Had our teammates not died so quickly I would have ran straight up the map.

I started the game by fleeting up enough to feint attacks against the player nearby me. As soon as I had Strip to the core I scuttled the two volcanics I had and then fleeted up quickly and took out the neighbors systems. I would have then moved up the map but we lost our two newbie teammates really quickly and the 3rd got impatient. Had it been early we probably would have called the game, but it was past 4am at that point so Sel and I wanted to see what VL and TR could do. I had to come over at one point to distract them off Sel while he fleeted up some then I continued eating planets.

I also destroyed a Level 6+ Eradica 2 or 3 times during the process. And culture is not an issue when you have 14 capitals and a Titan pushing it back. It's easy peasy to bomb a planet with that many capitals and siege frigates, capture, scuttle, move on with a 2000 fleet supply. Even if they kill of some of your fleet STTC completely ignores fleet supply. So if there are planets available to capture it's pretty easy to rebuild a fleet, plus you still end up with fairly high level capital ships due to all the carnage. Throw in easy phase nodes and you can make long range jumps putting quite a bit a distance between you and fleets that might threaten you.

If 5 are late game and chasing 2 VL, you'd think they'd have decent fleets themselves and at least enough culture down to prevent any planet eating along with phase jump inhibitors, defenses etc. so that they have to keep on the run. The most OP stuff about VL was that they'd eat their own planets early game and get a huge eco jump start and then just blitz everyone, which I thought was fixed in the latest patch by increasing the STTC requirements and pushing it to the later game.

The issue isn't the early game anymore...the 8 lab requirement makes it super risky to do that, though I suppose on a roomy map (like a 3v3 on a 10 player map) an early strip + kostura would be quite powerful...my point is that this strategy is a winning strategy late game, not just something that merely annoys players...it's not so OP that 5 skilled players couldn't wipe 2 noobs who just picked the best race (well, best that's allowed to be used), but a VL faction in the hands of a skilled player is far more threatening than any TEC or Advent faction in the same situation and guided by the same skill level...

The problem with culture+PJIs is that you can wipe out any structures at the planet super fast with bombers...so, you are depending entirely on culture of nearby wells, which can be repelled....granted, the repelling takes time, but the VL fleet naturally will have a titan and lots of caps so culture repulsion actually doesn't take too terribly long...

Furthermore, any planet surrounded by uncolonizables is completely hosed since neibhboring culture is so far...even small groups of planets can be decimated just by running through all of them, destroying culture, and leaving multiple migrators or a jarrasul to colonize...gravity warhead and orkies can actually make it harder for the enemy to jump out of their own gravity wells than for you, and splitting your fleet to deal with migrators and jarrasuls on multiple planets is just asking for your forces to be picked off...

I won't say that the situation is entirely impossible to deal with, but (excluding VR) VL and this planet eating is the only strategy where you can still have the upper hand despite being massively outnumbered...no TEC or Advent faction can deal with those odds...

Except for the orky though, those SB are stationary, so except their fighters, they can be left until after the defending fleet and orky is taken out, could even send bombers to exclusively deal with stationary SB while the main fleet fights mobile targets elsewhere. If they want to fight on top of the SB you could open up a patch of planet far away from the SB and start nailing it hard (but its likely they have bombardment protection on the SB) or get some structure bashers and leave em just out of range and start chipping away at the orky and force the enemy fleet to move away from the safety of the SSB to engage, and have the fleet ready to blap em as they leave the protective fire of the SSB. Just do what you have to to take away their combined firepower advantage. If they're all orkies and fleet kite em or use both fleets to force them to split up and divide and conquer, kill of their support while you make circles around the gravity well then take out the rest. You could even jump in the first fleet and have them kite the main force way on teh other side of the planet then jump in the second force and start attacking any stationary SB or move to pinch their fleet between you and take out their orkys from the backside.

The defending fleet and orky are going to group by the defending SB and tactical structures...mass bombers is a good strategy but if the defending player knows you are coming at him with bomber spam, he's going to switch all his carriers to fighters and most certainly will have multiple caps with anti-SC abilities (for example, I had two kols with flak burst, and both were level 6+)...bomber spam helps but it isn't a guarantee...anything other than bombers can be crushed with AoE abilities, including ogrovs, and you won't kill a high level titan before it can just shred frigates and cruisers trying to snipe the outer structures...

Every end game battle I've been involved in had the same results- late game battles basically result in only titans, carriers, and some caps being left....unless one player doesn't have a high level titan, most frigates are going to die really fast (or they are kiting and therefore not contributing anything)...not saying frigates are useless, but they are so expendable and basically are just some extra firepower in the beginning of a battle to snipe a cap or two...AL and TL may keep some of their fleet but that's pushing it....

Edit: Zombie basically said much of what I wanted to...bottomline, it's ridiculous...

TEC does have (I forget what its called) a tier 8 civ research along the trade ship upgrades, that gives the player a good eco without actually having anything. Like 15% of whatever someone else's trade ports are making and 8% of whenever they buy something. However I doubt that SttC would count.

Sounds like the best idea would be to take out the Vasari's partner, and leave VL for last at that point. Gang up on Sel with at least 4 players. Force VL to come to the rescue or let his ally die.

I actually would agree with your suggested changes.

Just an idea, what if VL had a more limited supply then other factions? Right now they all max out at 2000, what if VL could only go to 1750 or whatever? That way if the game tops out (everyone maxes or near maxes fleets with tier 8 research) VL have to live in the shadows.

And/or, is there a problem with making SttC use fleet supply, I.e. a 75% maxed fleet reduces what you get from SttC by 75%.

I think it was more the 2v5 situation you were describing that made me go "ehhh?". 14 Capitals ships? I think the opposing 5 players must've been not on the ball for 2v5 to be an issue. Vasari period have always seemed the strongest late game to me though, STTC or not. Phase stabilizer tech to give massive mobility on offense and defense (now with Titan ability for offensive use) alone gives such a huge advantage. Culture obviously won't hold off STTC forever but the point is, it delays and allows the other team to catch you. If we're talking 14 cap ships though, that's a different story - something else must've been lacking on the other team. I agree it's still such an amazing tech though and if all things are equal, it gives a huge advantage - I just don't think it's so huge that 5 competent players couldn't deal with 1 VL.

The problem is almost an inverted but mirror issue with the Vasari Rebels in that they both get to ignore fleet upkeep while building impressive combat fleets. In the case of VR mobile starbases require 0 fleet logistics allowing the # to be limited only by map size, while in the case of VL stripping gives the same amount of credits and resources regardless of fleet upkeep.

Given similarly skilled players on both teams, I'd give the definite edge to a VL player if they are allowed to achieve Strip to the Core. So much so they would likely be able to take on two non VL fleets mid to late game. It might balance out some towards late game, but good luck catching them while they avoid confrontation and chew up your border worlds in the process.

The defending fleet and orky are going to group by the defending SB and tactical structures...mass bombers is a good strategy but if the defending player knows you are coming at him with bomber spam, he's going to switch all his carriers to fighters and most certainly will have multiple caps with anti-SC abilities (for example, I had two kols with flak burst, and both were level 6+)...bomber spam helps but it isn't a guarantee...anything other than bombers can be crushed with AoE abilities, including ogrovs, and you won't kill a high level titan before it can just shred frigates and cruisers trying to snipe the outer structures...

Every end game battle I've been involved in had the same results- late game battles basically result in only titans, carriers, and some caps being left....unless one player doesn't have a high level titan, most frigates are going to die really fast (or they are kiting and therefore not contributing anything)...not saying frigates are useless, but they are so expendable and basically are just some extra firepower in the beginning of a battle to snipe a cap or two...AL and TL may keep some of their fleet but that's pushing it....

Edit: Zombie basically said much of what I wanted to...bottomline, it's ridiculous...

I'm confused by that because I'm pretty sure ogrovs and other structure bashers have longer range than stationary starbases, and everything else except for the rag titan sniping abilities which would force your fleet to venture out from the starbase ever so slightly , which would be enough for a cap fleet to engage anything venturing out at range without exposing them to the SB firepower. I guess it depends on the cooldown on the sniper cannon on the rag as to how fast one could burn through a pos-bashing fleet, and if they bring any healnig ships, the titan needs to one shot the structure bashers, which might be possible, dunno.

I always go for max caps myself purely to try to cut down on lag, fleet fights are more fun to observe when they're not stutter-fests. At max fleet, which probably isnt reasonably/economically possible in multiplayer games, I always have a ridiculous amount of leftover supply to build throw-away frigs, and depending on the situation, that may be all utility, structure bashers, lrms, whatever seems to be working best.

I mini-dumped so the recording is probably bad. Had our teammates not died so quickly I would have ran straight up the map.

I started the game by fleeting up enough to feint attacks against the player nearby me. As soon as I had Strip to the core I scuttled the two volcanics I had and then fleeted up quickly and took out the neighbors systems. I would have then moved up the map but we lost our two newbie teammates really quickly and the 3rd got impatient. Had it been early we probably would have called the game, but it was past 4am at that point so Sel and I wanted to see what VL and TR could do. I had to come over at one point to distract them off Sel while he fleeted up some then I continued eating planets.

I also destroyed a Level 6+ Eradica 2 or 3 times during the process. And culture is not an issue when you have 14 capitals and a Titan pushing it back. It's easy peasy to bomb a planet with that many capitals and siege frigates, capture, scuttle, move on with a 2000 fleet supply. Even if they kill of some of your fleet STTC completely ignores fleet supply. So if there are planets available to capture it's pretty easy to rebuild a fleet, plus you still end up with fairly high level capital ships due to all the carnage. Throw in easy phase nodes and you can make long range jumps putting quite a bit a distance between you and fleets that might threaten you.

If you actually took out a level 6 eradica I have to say its because the player didn't prepare properly. If he could afford the Eradica he could of spammed guardians and gotten a large amount of Illuminators.That said, that doesn't mean I dont think STTC needs a nerf. It does, but as I said it just need a price adjustment.

If you actually took out a level 6 eradica I have to say its because the player didn't prepare properly. If he could afford the Eradica he could of spammed guardians and gotten a large amount of Illuminators.That said, that doesn't mean I dont think STTC needs a nerf. It does, but as I said it just need a price adjustment.

Guardians and illuminators won't do jack against bombers...zombie didn't have tons of bombers but he had enough, and illuminators actually have only slightly better range than caps...you also have to keep in mind that only 2 of the 5 players were able to strong eco, the other 2-3 were frontliners and would never have been able to fleet up to the level of zombie...

There were a variety of things in that game that made it hard for the other team...my ragnorav with snipe was pretty damn good at killing caps and driving off titans...I RBed two fleets...titans in general have shitty pathfinding and so some titan losses were solely due to that...

I'm confused by that because I'm pretty sure ogrovs and other structure bashers have longer range than stationary starbases, and everything else except for the rag titan sniping abilities which would force your fleet to venture out from the starbase ever so slightly , which would be enough for a cap fleet to engage anything venturing out at range without exposing them to the SB firepower. I guess it depends on the cooldown on the sniper cannon on the rag as to how fast one could burn through a pos-bashing fleet, and if they bring any healnig ships, the titan needs to one shot the structure bashers, which might be possible, dunno.

AoE abilties like missile barrage, chastic burst, scattershot...all of those things are done by high HP ships that can venture away from and SB, then retreat for repairs...I had multiple marzas with missile barrage, multiple kols with flak burst, dunov with emp and flux field, akkan with ion bolt and armistice, multiple corsevs with passive repairing...not too hard to venture out for a bit to wipe a cap or some ogrovs...I also had 100+ squadrons of bombers so really if anything short of a titan is being a pain in the ass, I could wipe it pretty quick...

The point is that I had defensive advantage, and had zombie not MDed and had been able to jump his fleet there (which wouldn't have been a problem), the 2 of us could have easily wiped all 4 fleets right there...I wiped 3 and half whole fleets all on my own, with only the titans and some stragglers surviving....again, the problem is that VL get big fleet before everyone else and have lots of time to level their titan and caps...the other players, even if they have great eco, won't have the opportunity to get as many high level caps....the only reason some of the enemy titans were so high was because the silly AI threw away zombie's fleet, and a pathfinding issue got one of my carrier fleets trapped and killed...

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 23If you actually took out a level 6 eradica I have to say its because the player didn't prepare properly. If he could afford the Eradica he could of spammed guardians and gotten a large amount of Illuminators.That said, that doesn't mean I dont think STTC needs a nerf. It does, but as I said it just need a price adjustment.

Guardians and illuminators won't do jack against bombers...zombie didn't have tons of bombers but he had enough, and illuminators actually have only slightly better range than caps...you also have to keep in mind that only 2 of the 5 players were able to strong eco, the other 2-3 were frontliners and would never have been able to fleet up to the level of zombie...

There were a variety of things in that game that made it hard for the other team...my ragnorav with snipe was pretty damn good at killing caps and driving off titans...I RBed two fleets...titans in general have shitty pathfinding and so some titan losses were solely due to that...

You have to understand I'm talking in an ideal situation. I haven't seen the replay I'm just saying that the player clearly did not prepare properly. He has bombers? Spam out flak, or better yet he is the Advent, match his carrier count and spam out fighters and bombers. You RB'd two fleets, rookie mistake. I don't mean to take away from your guys win or anything. Grats, just as I said your opponents didn't prepare properly if it were in ideal situations(Aka no mini's, etc, etc).

You have to understand I'm talking in an ideal situation. I haven't seen the replay I'm just saying that the player clearly did not prepare properly. He has bombers? Spam out flak, or better yet he is the Advent, match his carrier count and spam out fighters and bombers. You RB'd two fleets, rookie mistake. I don't mean to take away from your guys win or anything. Grats, just as I said your opponents didn't prepare properly if it were in ideal situations(Aka no mini's, etc, etc).

We didn't win...might have if zombie hadn't minied, but he did and I wasn't going to win against 4 fleets, even with best caps....

Anyway, yes the other team made some mistakes, but zombie and I also made mistakes or had some bad luck...he lost his titan because of pathfinding problems once, I lost my carrier fleet twice because of pathfinding (first time) or not paying attention (second time)...and the RB was against a fleet coming through a wormhole, so I give them some leniency on that....combine a huge map with lag and the fact that zombie and I had shit everywhere on the map, and it really is hard for everyone to pay attention to everything at all times...at that stage, mistakes are going to happen, even by good players...

The point isn't that in a 2v5, VL and friend are still going to win...the point is that no combination of 2 players could ever handle a 2v5 unless one of them is VL or the entire other team is noobs (and then it really wouldn't have gotten to become a 2v5 in the first place)...

Bottomline: VL are OP, had it been a 2v2 or 2v3, other team wouldn't have stood a chance...2v4 from start may have been doable...that a 2v5 still wasn't decided until the VL player minied is just wrong...it wasn't because we are pros, or because the other team totally sucked, it was solely because we had VL and they didn't...that's wrong, game should not be like that...everyone else is pretty hosed late game if they are outnumbered except vasari....