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The concern remains that it sounds like the solo that everyone takes is all based on playing F pentatonic with no regard for the two tonal centers (Fm and Abmaj). Just because the two tonal centers share the same notes doesn't mean the notes have the same function in each chord. So, to distinguish between Fm and Abmaj, one would need some sort of cadence material to get to Ab (Eb7) outlined in the solo, and then Fm treated the same with some reference to C7 in the solo. The backing chords remain the same, so it is up to the melody to help spell out the differences, otherwise it is just noodling in Fm pentatonic/blues/whatever. Theoretic justification doesn't amount to much if it doesn't sound right, so, for example just because you CAN play an Eb-G-Bb to get to Fm doesn't mean it is going to sound good.I'm still concerned that things sound good, first and foremost, and when they don't it is probably because something is missing--maybe feel, maybe phrase shape/length, maybe note choices, maybe all three. In any case, this is what I'm focusing a lot on these days, so it is evident in others' playing because I'm getting more sensitive to it in my own playing.

Frankly I don't remember what I played but what just for the sake of being academic, what you describe is vertical playing, which is doing the changes exactly. The nice thing about common tones on chords is that you can ignore that for awhile and in theory at least, if you're listening, you can make a melody that crosses over all the chords.

Doing bebop style vertical playing is one thing but horizontal playing is something else and provides a nice contrast. Many players seek to mix both in. If I can, I would actually prefer to play more horizontally but I really have to know the tune. So sometimes it can only be a limited application like for 2 bars or so.

Now if I actually had the presence of mind to think melodically then, I can't tell you, because in a new tune, you don't have much time to think. You basically have half a bar to be aware of the next chord.

BTW - I found the changes in an older Real Book and it was drastically different than the changes I found in the IRealB App. It's not in 6th Edition.

On another note -- I can't sight read on the spot so I just tried to remember the melody roughly. I was a little off in the hearing since I never actually tried it on the piano. Anyway, tonight I actually read the melody (one of the many versions), so thanks for the heads up.

Well, I believe you posted a recording that you are free to listen to, so let's start there and then we can talk more cogently about the very thing I'm referring to below.

Originally Posted by JW

but what just for the sake of being academic, what you describe is vertical playing, which is doing the changes exactly. The nice thing about common tones on chords is that you can ignore that for awhile and in theory at least, if you're listening, you can make a melody that crosses over all the chords.

Understood. But it didn't sound melodically pleasing. It sounded academic, or theory based. Otherwise I would have said something along the lines of 'Despite ignoring the underlying change from Fm to Abmaj, you've managed to produce a cohesive solo that transcends this and taken it to another melodic level. Congratulations!' But I didn't.

So, theory doesn't trump melodic sense. It's the other way around.

Originally Posted by JW

Now if I actually had the presence of mind to think melodically then, I can't tell you, because in a new tune, you don't have much time to think. You basically have half a bar to be aware of the next chord.

Yes, this is the danger of reading and just processing a tune as potential common tones between chords, and ignoring melodic flow.I'm playing in a trio with the same two guys for the last two years, and I continually talk to the bass player about trying to understand how to move melodically in tunes, but part of the problem is that he doesn't take the time to actually learn how cadences work, so when he sees them, he just processes the stuff vertically, rather than horizontally. I hear you doing the same, despite saying that we are talking about different things. To be clear: melodic playing is not vertical, as you suggested above, but rather, it is horizontal--at least it should be.

I don't find anything I can disagree with on what you're saying. Although, I'm not sure why you pick a tune to harp on that I clearly only started playing. It's like saying: "You don't know the tune!". Well, it's true.

I gather you're trying to impart a lesson (and not debating) but I've already lost it. If I played the tune again, it would sound completely different.

Anyway, let's find a "real" debate topic.

EDIT -- Now since I asked for Comments, then as a comment, what you said is a perfectly valid observation and I accept it.

EDIT -- Now since I asked for Comments, then as a comment, what you said is a perfectly valid observation and I accept it.

There. So, time to record the tune again, but this time with more melodic flow, right? The good thing is, I'm always willing to put my money where my mouth is, and have also revisited the tune to give it some more work. I always come away surprised about how I can miss something along the way. But it helps when I hear the same things missing in others playing.It needs to be said that no one should become too complacent in their perceived understanding of music theory. I truly think this leads to sloppy and/or academic playing.

So, on another topic, does anyone else see the connection between 'Nefertiti', and the A section of 'There is No Greater Love'. I believe this is where Shorter actually got the ideas from. See if you can find the similarities (Yes, Ab to Db is obvious--but look deeper, especially some of the important points in the melody.)Fun stuff.

Let's do that -- post versions of In Walked Bud. Maybe that will focus me on learning it and get ideas from each other.

Talking about similarities -- I was playing Four and How High the Moon at that last gig and it occurred to me that the changes were interchangeable. So while playing How High the Moon, I actually thought to play a snippet of Four. Bad choice from a tune selection point of view though, to put two similar tunes on the same set list. Because they were in different keys, I didn't realize how close it was. Four seems like a reharm.

On In Walked Bud, when I put thought into it and not generalizing changes over many bars (like really paying attention to each chord within half a bar), then one realizes how difficult it is to play this.

It's easy enough to just stay within the scale and just stay diatonic. But without lots of practice, I couldn't easily do it at 170bpm which was roughly the tempo we played it. After sitting with it for a bit, I could only hit the proper tones at 100bpm.

I see what you mean here. There's not a lot of time to think about it. It has to be worked out ahead.

Are you going to post yours? I have a gig tonight so I probably can't record today.

Can't say this is a favorite tune for me. The cycle of chord changes is too fast for me to allow a flow of ideas (IMO). Good thing you get a pause in the B section. But an excellent exercise.

Ok I tried it again tonight. Not there yet since I only woodshedded today. But I'm not one to hide my imperfections. Although, you may laugh that I'm doing this practice live. Lots of distractions btw. There's a newbie bongo player playing right next to my ear and she's off beat. So that was affecting me big time. I also couldn't tell because of the monitors but at least from the recording, it sounded like I was banging the piano. Or the recorder was picking up the monitor.

On In Walked Bud, when I put thought into it...then one realizes how difficult it is to play this.

That's the thing. Every tune presents it's own challenges.

Originally Posted by jw

I see what you mean here. There's not a lot of time to think about it. It has to be worked out ahead.

Well, not worked out ahead, but just knowing where you are coming from and where you are going hence the Fm-Ab thing. It's important to know when the tonality shifts, and how to state that shifted tonality in the direction the notes take.

Originally Posted by jw

Are you going to post yours? I have a gig tonight so I probably can't record today.

yes, but not for a few days, I'm doing concerts for a bit.

Originally Posted by jw

Can't say this is a favorite tune for me. The cycle of chord changes is too fast for me to allow a flow of ideas (IMO).

The flow will come, as it will for Very Early and Giant Steps, etc that seems to move too fast. Ironically, you'll need to look at the form in bigger chunks again. It's a great tune that deserves to be learned, especially the syncopation aspects of it.

Just a small comment on In Walked Bud. In all of Monk's versions, in the bridge, he heavily accents the two Bbs and then the Cb. This changes the whole phrasing and brings out the over the bar line feel that, to me, makes the bridge.

Just a small comment on In Walked Bud. In all of Monk's versions, in the bridge, he heavily accents the two Bbs and then the Cb. This changes the whole phrasing and brings out the over the bar line feel that, to me, makes the bridge.

I'll listen for that right now. BTW I saw your thread on E.S.T. and I happen to have 2 versions of In Walked Bud on my Iphone and one is E.S.T.

The flow will come, as it will for Very Early and Giant Steps, etc that seems to move too fast.

I don't recall you ever posting a version of Very Early, or Giant Steps...post if you have them.

BTW - I don't feel Giant Steps moves fast at all now. No one wants to play it at a gig or jam so I don't get to play it though. It's not that bad if one always listens for the big picture instead of chord by chord/vertical.

jazzwee: Just listened to the EST version, and of course, they don't do the accents I was talking about! I think when you hear how Monk does it and try it out, however, you'll enjoy playing it that way. It's best when the band is in sync with those accents, but I know you don't get to rehearse with the band.

jazzwee: Just listened to the EST version, and of course, they don't do the accents I was talking about! I think when you hear how Monk does it and try it out, however, you'll enjoy playing it that way. It's best when the band is in sync with those accents, but I know you don't get to rehearse with the band.

I see what you mean. I think I can just tell the Bass Player/Drummer ahead of time and we can do that. It does make it more interesting.

Just found this page on Jeff Brent's website that was an analysis of "Giant Steps" and thought of you jazzwee. I'm certainly nowhere near being able to use it, but thought you might enjoy taking a look

Not sure what you mean by Eb and A? Are you playing it in F-, with the two chords in the bridge being F- and Db7?

The version I'm listening to, they actually focus on those notes, the Eb and A (not Cb). The drums actually pauses on those notes, which sound out.

EST obviously doesn't.

Scep's comments on how to play this makes me self-conscious now every time I play this (like last night) instead of just letting the harmony in my head to drive it. So I'm going to let a few more gigs pass before I repost. I've played it at every gig in the last few days. I still feel stilted. Like I'm forcing a chord tone in there without really feeling the melody.

Jazzwee: Hard to hear your pianto, but what I can hear sounds really good. I think it sounds much better at that tempo.

My latest tune is Celia by Bud Powell. It's another one of those heads you can't just site read. I've been working on it for a month, as part of a desire to get to know Bud Powell better. I've got a full transcription, so now that I know the head, I'm trying to learn his solo. Just one chorus, but a work of art. He really was revolutionary and a great player. I think people don't listen to him as much because the recordings all have that old, scratchy sound.

Just found this page on Jeff Brent's website that was an analysis of "Giant Steps" and thought of you jazzwee. I'm certainly nowhere near being able to use it, but thought you might enjoy taking a look

Actually, I wonder about the true historical lineage of Giant Steps. Does anyone definitively know if Giant Steps was composed before Have You Met Miss Jones? I'd question whether Coltrane did what Brent suggests, or borrowed from the B section of Miss Jones.

Given that most jazzers are more enamored with Coltrane than Shearing, I'd think that most would believe that Giant Steps was the first written. Maybe first published, maybe even first recorded, but I'm not certain it precedes Shearing's tune, given the rest of Miss Jones seems to come from an earlier era.

Scep's comments on how to play this makes me self-conscious now every time I play this (like last night) instead of just letting the harmony in my head to drive it.

Consciousness is good. Self-consiousness not so good. Get over it and try to get to the point of making the tune sound good. I find Summertime and Blue Skies might make a good stepping stone in that they both have similar, if not identical, movements from minor to relative major.

Maybe part of the problem comes from sidestepping classical harmony and melody construction in favour of more modern lines that DEconstruct melody--such as using a pentatonic scale over both sections because you can.Just to go full circle for a moment: I didn't like the posted version of In Walked Bud because it didn't sound melodic. I'm saying again it doesn't sound melodic in the sense that there was nothing in your lines suggesting a tonal shift from minor to relative major. I also said I have trouble with this tune, and for the same reason.So, if you have recorded the last few gigs, and you have listened back to the tune, you are probably now hearing what I'm hearing, and that's good. Nothing to be self-conscious of. You'll know when you've got to the other side of the tune when you want to share it with us again.

In the meantime, I did record the tune with my trio too. As a matter of fact, I've recorded it a bunch of times, and none are satisfying for me. Check the next post for the links.

While I was waiting for In Walked Bud to appear on your links, Scep, I really enjoyed your version of Whisper Not. This is something I've played a few times and it looks like you've really analyzed this deeply. There where some reharm moments there that I'll have to relisten to.

Also the piano tone was exquisite. Really makes me want to throw out the DP on a gig. It just doesn't sound like that.

While I was waiting for In Walked Bud to appear on your links, Scep, I really enjoyed your version of Whisper Not. This is something I've played a few times and it looks like you've really analyzed this deeply. There where some reharm moments there that I'll have to relisten to.

Also the piano tone was exquisite. Really makes me want to throw out the DP on a gig. It just doesn't sound like that.

I'm going to give Whisper Not another try on my next gig.

Bad news on both fronts: I sold that piano you're listening to on Whisper Not. Got another one though--a Mason and Hamlin. I'll post a recording I did with that.

As for the links--something is fishy with boxnet--you can click on the play button for the tune you choose, but if you move the cursor away to navigate something else it goes into 'loading' loop. It has never done that before.

But thanks for the compliments on Whisper Not. Another hard tune because of the three key centres. I'm glad you liked it, but I still wouldn't say I know it yet. I am understanding it a bit more and finding ways to move between the Cm, Gm and Dm that sound like the ideas flow through the centres.