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[MECHANICS] Power level compilation thread

thelee

Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:40 AM

thelee

(8) Warlock

Members

1131 posts

I find power level to be extremely confusing. (Frankly, before doing in-game research and learning more about how it worked I thought it was a systems blunder by Obsidian due to how obtuse and confusing it is.) I'm posting this share my research but also gather comments on power level, because I can't find an updated recent thread that isn't locked to talk about it. I only have incomplete information from staring at combat logs and a limited set of spells/abilities, so others feel free to chime in.

Power level scaling: affects all active abilities (including consumables). Weapon-based martial abilities get minimal and special power-level scaling (including special treatment by Empower, see end of post). Because weapon-based martial abilities are so special, this post will mostly focus on scaling done to other abilities. Note: this wasn't clear to me before, but adding this here -> all damage/duration bonuses you get from power level scaling are multiplicative with any other modifiers: they are applied first, and then all other modifiers are applied.

What it does: for every power level you have that is greater than the native[1] power level of the spell, you get scaling bonuses. There are general rules about how spells should scale that I've found, though there appear to be exceptions. But what you see here should suffice for the vast majority of cases.

[1] some classes get spells from other classes' skill trees. For example, if you have Xoti train as a priest or priest/monk, at PL3 she gets a bonus spell: "Vile Thorns." Vile Thorns is natively from the druid skill tree, and so it is treated as PL1 in terms of power level scaling. So that means at PL3 you get access to Vile Thorns and it already has some bonus damage, even though you don't have a power level higher than the power level Vile Thorns is on, because natively it is a PL1 spell, not a PL3 spell.

General guidelines: First of all, tool-tip accuracy is inaccurate and inconsistent. The one you see when you right-click on an ability ignores ability and power level scaling. The one you see when you hover over the ability in your HUD ignores power level scaling, but counts ability level scaling. Anyway, regardless of power level, there is a scaling ability level accuracy bonus, which is equal to 2 * (power_level - 1) of the spell. So a PL3 spell will inherently have a +4 ability level accuracy bonus, whereas a PL1 spell will have none. There is also a scaling ability level penetration bonus, which is equal to +.5 per ability level.

Second of all, the general way scaling appears to happen is, first, take the difference between your current power level and the spell's native power level. For simplicity's sake, let's just call this the "PL". (So casting a PL1 spell at PL4 you would have a PL of 3 for scaling purposes.)

A. if a spell bounces or has projectiles, it gets an additional bounce or projectile every other PL. Spells used to have variable projectile scaling but it looks like that got nerfed at some point and they appear to get .5 projectile per PL.

B. if a spell does damage/healing, it gets +5% per PL. Non-bounce, non-projectile damage/heals used to get up to 10%, but looks like that was nerfed at some point.

C. if the spell has duration effects, it gets a longer duration of +5% per PL.

D. if the spell has penetration, it gets an additional +.25 penetration per PL (rounds up to the nearest tenth).

E1. if the spell has an accuracy roll, it gets +1 accuracy per PL.

E2. if the spell primarily only has that accuracy roll (no damage/healing, no duration effect), it instead gets a +2 accuracy per PL. I'm not actually sure how many of these types of spells exist, but I noticed this while playing with Repulsing Seal (which only does a prone). Slicken is another example of a prone-only thing (though it also has a hazard duration, a hazard duration must not prevent a spell from getting +2 accuracy per PL).

Empowering a spell gets you +5 PL to that spell when you cast it.

Because some spells have multiple components to it that may touch on A, B, C, D, E some spells disproportionately benefit from power level scaling than others. Anecdotally, empowering a Minoletta's Concussive Missiles can be extremely powerful, because it is almost getting a boost in everything: damage, projectiles, accuracy, penetration. On the other hand, empowering a different PL4 spell like Form of the Delemgan will certainly give me a longer-lasting buff, but is not going to single-handedly swing a fight like empowering concussive missiles.

Martial abilities: Non-weapon based seem to roughly follow the spell rules, but weapon-based (primary attack or full attack) abilities follow a special set of scaling, being only affected by B and secretly get an adjustment to their damage in A, but applied as a direct adjustment to the base damage roll, making it effectively a secret multiplicative damage boost. Because it is secretly applied, it's kind of hard to suss out what the bonus is, but my best guess from lots of force-attacking Eder is +5% to your roll per PL. Interestingly, doing an Empower-ed weapon ability manually adds a special damage, accuracy, and penetration bonus: +25% damage (additively combined with any inherent PL scaling), +10 accuracy and +2.5 penetration. I call this a special bonus because in the combat log, this accuracy/penetration bonus isn't attributed to power level scaling at all, it's attributed to the ability itself. And like normal power-level scaling, the Empowered damage bonus isn't actually listed on the tooltips at all, it is secretly added into the "roll" used for damage numbers. But it's there and works on weapon-based martial abilities that don't look like they have much power scaling whatsoever (i.e. Knock Down or Force of Anguish). Note that the way the base damage works means that the damage bonus is effectively a multiplicative bonus, making it more impactful than any other damage bonus in the game.

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

Potions/drugs: are influenced by your Alchemy skill. Like scrolls, if you have any bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost potion/drug power level. Nalpazca monks effectively have +10 PL for drugs, which generally means +50% duration with drugs. Pre-1.2, all potions/drugs got their effect boosted by your alchemy skill, but this scaling has been removed with 1.2. (So no more broken uses of Potion of Impediment.) Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on potions.

Explosives: are influenced by your Explosives skill. Bombs used to have a hidden native power level, but as of 1.2 they all have PL0 and have been rebalanced so that they scale appropriately from there. Like with other consumables, if you have any bonus to your power level (from items, potions, etc.) they also boost your explosives skill 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on explosives.

Reverse pickpocketing: from stealth, you can reverse pickpocket an explosive (can't be in your quick item slot). It gets a special version of "empower" when it detonates, which grants it +100 accuracy (all but guaranteeing a crit), and +100% to the base damage (multiplicative with other damage bonuses).'

Traps: are weird~! They do their own thing when it comes to PL scaling. First, each point of Mechanics gives a +3 accuracy bonus to traps when they trigger. However, for each of your character levels, it gets a bonus PL, except this PL scaling does not affect damage, they only affect penetration, accuracy, and duration (this may be related to an issue where spells that create "hazard" effects do not do correct damage that scales with stats/abilities). Interestingly, trap duration is not affected by intellect, but trap accuracy is affected by perception. So a level 12 character with 10 mechanics would get a +30 accuracy bonus from mechanics, then another +12 accuracy from PL scaling (listed as an "ability level" bonus in the combat log). Then, if it's a trap with a duration, it gets +60% to duration, and if it's a trap with a penetration value, it gets +3.25 (rounds to 3.3 in display). Anyhoo, this effectively means that for people who keep using traps late game, they will primarily be useful for their debuffs (sorry, caltrops trap).

Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:43 AM

Transcendent suffering benefits quite a bit, but if you're focused on weapons then Nature Godlike isn't as useful.

Nature godlike transcendent suffering adds 65% damage, 18 acc, and +5 pen; when multi classed at level 20. That's more than a legendary weapon, and a tier above non nature godlike multi classed fists at level 20, but you're missing out on the cool bonuses of unique weapons. At least you have the choice of using both your fists or your chosen weapon proficiency to be a badass with.

Witness41920

Posted 16 May 2018 - 02:17 AM

Witness41920

(3) Conjurer

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136 posts

Location:Raleigh, North Carolina

So, I was doing some extensive power level testing before I knew this thread existed. Here are my findings:

Martial abilities that aren't affected by Power Level are usually not affected because they scale by weapon power instead (meaning they use primary or full attacks) whereas spells are completely unaffected by the power and accuracy of your weapon, which puts them on relatively equal footing. Power Level does affect some martial abilities in the way of debuff duration, bleed effects and similar things.

As far as spells are concerned, the higher level the spell, the less affected by Power Level it is. For example, a level 1 Wizard spell will usually receive a 90% bonus by power level if you're single class and have max power level whereas a level 9 Wizard spell only gets a 10% power level bonus under the same conditions, this seems to be a gradual effect.

Level I - 90%

Level II - 80%

Level III - 70%

And so on, so forth with 10% increments all the way up. Unfortunately this is not a blanket adjustment. Some spells receive less of a power level bonus (these tend to be spells with multiple targets (not AoE) and spells with no miss chance (like Minoletta's Missiles spells). Not really sure yet on what the condition is.

Power Level has no effect on the power of buffs or debuffs other than duration.

Power Level has no effect on the accuracy of a spell or ability.

Power Level affects both damage and healing.

Generally this means that if you're focusing on control, you can multi-class a little easier but if you're looking for damage then single-class is the way to go (at least for spellcasters).

Enoch

Posted 16 May 2018 - 05:39 AM

Power Level has no effect on the power of buffs or debuffs other than duration.

Power Level has no effect on the accuracy of a spell or ability.

Power Level affects both damage and healing.

This is also consistent for Potions and Drugs. The tooltips describe a "level" modifier, which is sometimes just Power Level (for pure Healing potions), sometimes just Alchemy skill (for magnitude of non-healing effects, such as the Armor bonus from a Potion of Spirit Shield), and sometimes both added together (durations: 5% longer per PL+ALC). I think all alchemical stuff counts as PL1 as the baseline (i.e., you get a bonus for each PL above 1), but I haven't tested this much with higher-level potions, etc.

The Nalpazca bonus functions just like an Empower: all drug durations and drug healing effects (Whiteleaf) are boosted by 10 PLs (generally meaning a +50% duration), but buff magnitudes are the same as that for a non-Nalpazca with equivalent Alchemy skill.

Alchemy skill for potion/drug purposes is personal-- no bonus from party assist. Your friends can't help you get high.

thelee

Posted 16 May 2018 - 03:10 PM

There is only one thing I do not understand:
You say there is an ability level penetration bonus of 0.5 and a power level penetration bonus of 0.25. What does it mean?

For example: There is a spell that is power level 3 and your character has power level 7. When you right click the spell it says penetration 5.
Do you have base (5) + ability level bonus ( 3 * 0.5 ) + PL bonus (( 7-3) * 0.25) = 5 + 1,5 + 1 = 7.5
Is this correct?

Yes. Basically as you gain more power levels, all your spells gain more penetration, either because you have access to new higher level spells with greater inherent power level (from ability level bonus) or because the other spells gain a PL bonus. The PL bonus not being as large as the ability level bonus means that your most penetrating spells will generally be the highest PL spells you have though the others won't be too far behind.

Though in-game, penetration values are shown correctly in the right-click pop up on spells (if you hover over it you should get a breakdown by ability level and PL), so you don't have to do the math yourself.

So if I empower a spell it gets +10PL, that means I get those bonusses:
+10 acc ( 1 per PL ) if the spell targets an enemy, +20acc when it does not cause damage or duration effect
+5 ( +1 every second PL ) projectiles/bounces if the spell does such a thing
+100% damage ( 10% per PL ) if it causes damage, +50% damage for each projectile ( 5% per PL) if it is a missle spell
+50% duration ( 5% per PL) if it has a duration
+2.5 penetration (0.25 per PL) if it causes damage that is not raw damage

I say hallo to the nature godlike evoker missle god.

Edit: Just to be sure: When you say +x% damage or duration, you mean X% of base damage/duration. It does not include any other modifier such as might or int.

Yes that is correct, all of it. The bonuses are additive with all other sources, if any.

thelee

Posted 16 May 2018 - 03:18 PM

thelee

(8) Warlock

Members

1131 posts

So, I was doing some extensive power level testing before I knew this thread existed. Here are my findings:

Martial abilities that aren't affected by Power Level are usually not affected because they scale by weapon power instead (meaning they use primary or full attacks) whereas spells are completely unaffected by the power and accuracy of your weapon, which puts them on relatively equal footing. Power Level does affect some martial abilities in the way of debuff duration, bleed effects and similar things.

This is a great way to put it. At first I was bummed that so many martial abilities saw no PL scaling, but as you put it they already scale because weapons get better and better. Really, spells were just getting a raw deal in pillars1.

thelee

Posted 16 May 2018 - 06:02 PM

Power Level has no effect on the power of buffs or debuffs other than duration.

Power Level has no effect on the accuracy of a spell or ability.

Power Level affects both damage and healing.

This is also consistent for Potions and Drugs. The tooltips describe a "level" modifier, which is sometimes just Power Level (for pure Healing potions), sometimes just Alchemy skill (for magnitude of non-healing effects, such as the Armor bonus from a Potion of Spirit Shield), and sometimes both added together (durations: 5% longer per PL+ALC). I think all alchemical stuff counts as PL1 as the baseline (i.e., you get a bonus for each PL above 1), but I haven't tested this much with higher-level potions, etc.

The Nalpazca bonus functions just like an Empower: all drug durations and drug healing effects (Whiteleaf) are boosted by 10 PLs (generally meaning a +50% duration), but buff magnitudes are the same as that for a non-Nalpazca with equivalent Alchemy skill.

Alchemy skill for potion/drug purposes is personal-- no bonus from party assist. Your friends can't help you get high.

Thanks, Enoch. I added a small note to the OP about PL and drugs/potions.

Alhoon

Posted 16 May 2018 - 06:57 PM

Alhoon

(1) Prestidigitator

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Steam:Alhoon

Martial abilities that aren't affected by Power Level are usually not affected because they scale by weapon power instead (meaning they use primary or full attacks) whereas spells are completely unaffected by the power and accuracy of your weapon, which puts them on relatively equal footing. Power Level does affect some martial abilities in the way of debuff duration, bleed effects and similar things.

Actually, power level of attack abilities also increases the base attack damage that is mostly derived from your weapon. I discovered this while testing how Empower affects Flames of Devotion. The increase is very noticeable if you compare base damage (before any bonuses) from combat log between Empowered and non-Empowered attack skills.

I also tested whether this is because of Empower or just power level, and modded an equipment to give +10 fire skill power level (Flames of Devotion is tagged as fire skill), and it definitely is power level that boosts base attack damage.

hilfazer

Posted 17 May 2018 - 07:06 AM

So an Overhelming Wave's stun with pathetic duration of 4s cast by max lvl single class druid will have a whooping duration of 4 * (1 + .05 * 5) = 5s!

Whole 5 seconds! Wow, ain't that crazy?!

Tbh overwhelming wave in pillars1 was OP. Combined with intellect bonus, that 4s in deadfire can still be not shabby. Empower it and get lasting empower and it's even longer.

It wasn't. It had crappy template that was fully friendly-fire, it didn't benefit from radius increaase from INT and it was a stun - an affliction druid had in abundance. It was also slow. I'd rather have something mind-affecting. Stun was also rolled againts Fort, a defense with highest average value. Not sure what was OP in OW but surely not stun.

Besides, the point is increase in durations from PL is tiny. Especially on thing with very short base duration like OW.

When i saw durations in Tyranny i was surprised they are even shorter than in PoE. Then i realized it is that way because Tyranny is a cooldown rotation game.

But no, they did same in PoE2. I'm afraid PoE3 will be MOBA, party size is already at 5

thelee

Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:30 PM

thelee

(8) Warlock

Members

1131 posts

Martial abilities that aren't affected by Power Level are usually not affected because they scale by weapon power instead (meaning they use primary or full attacks) whereas spells are completely unaffected by the power and accuracy of your weapon, which puts them on relatively equal footing. Power Level does affect some martial abilities in the way of debuff duration, bleed effects and similar things.

Actually, power level of attack abilities also increases the base attack damage that is mostly derived from your weapon. I discovered this while testing how Empower affects Flames of Devotion. The increase is very noticeable if you compare base damage (before any bonuses) from combat log between Empowered and non-Empowered attack skills.

I also tested whether this is because of Empower or just power level, and modded an equipment to give +10 fire skill power level (Flames of Devotion is tagged as fire skill), and it definitely is power level that boosts base attack damage.

Odd, because testing with Knock Down and Crippling Strike I didn't see any boost in damage other than from Overpenetration. great, more things to research.

So an Overhelming Wave's stun with pathetic duration of 4s cast by max lvl single class druid will have a whooping duration of 4 * (1 + .05 * 5) = 5s!

Whole 5 seconds! Wow, ain't that crazy?!

Tbh overwhelming wave in pillars1 was OP. Combined with intellect bonus, that 4s in deadfire can still be not shabby. Empower it and get lasting empower and it's even longer.

It wasn't. It had crappy template that was fully friendly-fire, it didn't benefit from radius increaase from INT and it was a stun - an affliction druid had in abundance. It was also slow. I'd rather have something mind-affecting. Stun was also rolled againts Fort, a defense with highest average value. Not sure what was OP in OW but surely not stun.

Besides, the point is increase in durations from PL is tiny. Especially on thing with very short base duration like OW.

When i saw durations in Tyranny i was surprised they are even shorter than in PoE. Then i realized it is that way because Tyranny is a cooldown rotation game.

But no, they did same in PoE2. I'm afraid PoE3 will be MOBA, party size is already at 5

Friendly-fire isn't a downside because it's easy to work around. And the stun had a whopping base of 8s, and stun is very rarely an immunity or resistance for enemies in pillars; even though it targeted fort the duration was so long that even a graze could be absolutely devastating if you had some reflex-targeting stuff to follow up with. The other sources for druid stun were all really short and two of them hooked onto really slow spells (one of which targeted randomly). On POTD, a very slightly buffed druid (for accuracy) can trivialize the llengrath fight because one well-aimed overwhelming wave will stun the dragons and llengrath for a really long time.

Each PL point in duration is at least as good as a point in intellect. Possibly the bigger problem is that PL scaling on other things (e.g. projectile count, which I updated) is a little insane OP.

thelee

Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:43 PM

So if I empower a spell it gets +10PL, that means I get those bonusses:
+10 acc ( 1 per PL ) if the spell targets an enemy, +20acc when it does not cause damage or duration effect
+5 ( +1 every second PL ) projectiles/bounces if the spell does such a thing
+100% damage ( 10% per PL ) if it causes damage, +50% damage for each projectile ( 5% per PL) if it is a missle spell
+50% duration ( 5% per PL) if it has a duration
+2.5 penetration (0.25 per PL) if it causes damage that is not raw damage

I say hallo to the nature godlike evoker missle god.

Edit: Just to be sure: When you say +x% damage or duration, you mean X% of base damage/duration. It does not include any other modifier such as might or int.

Yes that is correct, all of it. The bonuses are additive with all other sources, if any.

I have to change my answer; you actually will likely get more than half a projectile per PL when you empower. I got the "every other" rule from an old backer beta dev post, but testing in game, the two projectile spells I tested actually get more than .5 projectile per PL, and by a variable amount, so we should consider .5 projectile per PL a minimum. PL4 superstar Minoletta's Concussive Missile gets an insane 1 projectile per PL, which is largely why an empowered version is so insanely good.

Nemesis7884

Posted 19 May 2018 - 07:55 PM

Nemesis7884

(4) Theurgist

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365 posts

i assume power levels do not work with martial abilities/lashes? For example if i have +X to fire power leves it doesn't make my flames of devotion stronger or +X to electricity doesn't make swift strikes stronger?