Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

Really? I don't think you really mean that. If so, I'd like to see them.

We have at least a top 5 WR, who's better than what at least 27 other teams have. We have a TE that probably falls around 12, so he's better than around what 20 other team have. I know we were weak at WR2, but I don't see he takes us down to the bottom 3rd of the league. You could replace Gresham with Coats, and AJ Green alone still might make it above that.

Just a few little examples:

-Let's look at the Broncos. I'd say they have an even corp. AJ gets a slight nod over Demaryius Thomas, Gresham is ahead of Tamme, and I'd say Hawkins is equal to an old average Stokely. They win at the 2, but you could say that Manning made Decker into something greater. He only had 700 yards total in his first two years.

-Eagles? AJ Green is so much better than Desean Jackson it's not even funny. Gresham vs Celek is a wash. Maclin is a very solid #2, but he's enough that you want to give up AJ Green for a 5ft burner in Jackson? I don't know. I may give them a very, very small edge.

-Vikings? AJ Green >>> Percy Harvin. Gresham > Rudolph (he's just a red zone threat at this point in his career. Are you giving up AJ for Harvin just so you can snag Jerome Simpson.

-Patriots. Well,Hernandez missed like games 2-12 and was never healthy. Gronk went down mid season. They were left with Welker and Lloyd. Now, I may take their whole group healthy, but Brady didn't have a ton to work with, yet he still put up numbers.

-Chi. Green vs Marshall is a wash. Gresham > Kellen Davis. Johnny Knox was hurt, and ***** anyway. Hester? I think if you compare both corps it would either be even or a slight nod to us.

-GB. Jennings was hurt and missed a bunch of games. You think Gresham played poorly at times? Finley was worse. Rodgers still lit it up. And there's no way I'm giving up AJ Green just to gain Jordy Nelson, who had a down year. Rodgers made Cobb into a star (Similar to Hawkins) He turned James Jones into a stud, which he's not.

-Indy. Green > Wayne on age alone. Gresham > Fleener at this point in their careers. I think Hawkins isn't far off of a Avery. I wouldn't trade ours for theirs, but I could see it being a push I guess.

-Arizona. Green = Fitzgerald. Gresham > that big white dude they just drafted. Then you have a bunch of guys who hadn't done anything yet. They have Floyd who is probably ahead of a guy like Jones. And Doucet and Roberts are similar to a Hawkins type of talent. I'd say this is another tie.

-Baltimore. Yeah Boldin and Smith are a real nice duo. And Jacoby Jones is a great 3rd options. But none of them are even close to Green. And Pitta is meh. Gresham gets the nod there. I will allow that they have better depth, but I wouldn't say they have more firepower. I'd say this is another tie as well.

-Houston. Green is greater than Andre at this point in their careers. Gresham = Daniels. They get the nod with Walter, but not by a ton. Quick, name another receiver on their team. I can't. I honestly think this is a tie at best. I would take our corp 9 out of 10 times.

Here's the teams that I don't think even deserve discussion, that we're so much ahead of: it's not even close

There's a whole lot of gray area after this group, and between the one above it. (See some of the teams described above. Ranking an entire corp is definitely difficult. The hardest part is figuring out of the receivers are either better or worse because of who's throwing them the ball (See Decker. E. or Fitzgerald, A. as examples of both) But I don't see how there's anyway that there 20 team, at least, who have a better overall corp.

I normally agree with you, Shake and I respect your opinion. But I think you're reallly, really reaching here to elevate Dalton. And it's of my opinion that many good QB's make good receivers. At least more so than vice versa. You could have put a Marvin Jones, Sanu, Hawkins, Binns into a few of these elite corps and the QB wouldn't miss a beat.

I think people reach too much to act like Andy had basically nothing. Having an elite talent like Green, with an above average talent TE who's made a Pro Bowl is one heckuva a start. Yeah a proven two would be great, and is needed. But there's plenty of teams that don't even have a proven #1. It could be a lot, lot worse. Not to mention teams sustain injures all of the time, so missing a 2 while having Green and Gresham still makes for a more than adequate group.

I agree 99.9999%....Randall Cobb is capable of becoming a star all on his own.

Well, if this is coming out of Cleveland I can sorta see where they'd get this. We won't like it as fans, but in the narrow 23-20 win over the Browns back in 2011, for example, the only difference that day between Andy and Colt McCoy was the one guy had AJ Green to make some circus catches for him and the other guy had Greg Little dropping the ball every other time it was thrown to him.

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Mc

Well, if this is coming out of Cleveland I can sorta see where they'd get this. We won't like it as fans, but in the narrow 23-20 win over the Browns back in 2011, for example, the only difference that day between Andy and Colt McCoy was the one guy had AJ Green to make some circus catches for him and the other guy had Greg Little dropping the ball every other time it was thrown to him.

I remember Colt looking pretty good in that game. And we still have trouble against rookie QBs for some reason (Miami game this year). OTOH, we did finish out against Baltimore's rookie for whatever that's worth.

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoomerFan

I remember Colt looking pretty good in that game. And we still have trouble against rookie QBs for some reason (Miami game this year). OTOH, we did finish out against Baltimore's rookie for whatever that's worth.

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

I'm not going to lie. This doesn't surprise me one bit. I've been telling the people I know that Andy needs to thank his lucky stars he has A.J. Green. This is the truth....without A.J. where would Andy Dalton be....

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BengalBuckeye

That stat is bs because we play 2 of the toughest D's against the run in the NFL 4 times a year. It also doesn't help when your passing game isn't up to par.

And guess what? In the playoffs you generally play either really good offenses or really good defenses and sometimes both. So you have to be able to beat them. (Which is our problem. We can beat bad to average teams, but not good to great teams.)

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSUfan

Not even close to what I meant. Rather you would love to see Andy fail (which he won't) so that you could blather on about it.

Oh he will, give him time, and I'm done talking to you, you like to argue too much, as I said if everyone don't agree with you, they are stupid, you and a few more on here won't let others have an opinion, you have to start your know it all b.s., so rant on knowey.

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

Really? I don't think you really mean that. If so, I'd like to see them.

We have at least a top 5 WR, who's better than what at least 27 other teams have. We have a TE that probably falls around 12, so he's better than around what 20 other team have. I know we were weak at WR2, but I don't see he takes us down to the bottom 3rd of the league. You could replace Gresham with Coats, and AJ Green alone still might make it above that.

Just a few little examples:

-Let's look at the Broncos. I'd say they have an even corp. AJ gets a slight nod over Demaryius Thomas, Gresham is ahead of Tamme, and I'd say Hawkins is equal to an old average Stokely. They win at the 2, but you could say that Manning made Decker into something greater. He only had 700 yards total in his first two years.

Dude, that is stunningly ridiculous you would try to get that off. You can't just say "he only had x yards, Manning made him".....Get out, yea, Manning makes guys better, sure, so first there's the whole, you're gonna complain if Dalton ain't as good as manning thing. Then besides that, things change, dudes play and perform and you have to give them credit.....Decker balled this year better than Gresh (our second best) and Stokely is more useful than Hawkins all day.

I mean jeez, I can't believe you even tried that. No way at all, ever, thats' crazy talk Broncos receivers >>>>>>> Bengals.-Eagles? AJ Green is so much better than Desean Jackson it's not even funny. Gresham vs Celek is a wash. Maclin is a very solid #2, but he's enough that you want to give up AJ Green for a 5ft burner in Jackson? I don't know. I may give them a very, very small edge.

Okay, and what of the Eagles QBs? Which one of them would you rather have than Dalton at this point....Vick? Foles? Foles looked like he might be starting to get it, but so what if the Eagles receivers are about the same as ours, it doesn't help ur point relative to Dalton.-Vikings? AJ Green >>> Percy Harvin. Gresham > Rudolph (he's just a red zone threat at this point in his career. Are you giving up AJ for Harvin just so you can snag Jerome Simpson.

Same as above, would you rather have Ponder? Does nothing to help ur point relative to Dalton.
-Patriots. Well,Hernandez missed like games 2-12 and was never healthy. Gronk went down mid season. They were left with Welker and Lloyd. Now, I may take their whole group healthy, but Brady didn't have a ton to work with, yet he still put up numbers.

[I]Welker is the best possession receiver in the game, Hernandez = Gresh, Gronk is on some Kellen Winslow Sr. shyte.......There is no comparison at all to the Bengals corp.[/i]
-Chi. Green vs Marshall is a wash. Gresham > Kellen Davis. Johnny Knox was hurt, and ***** anyway. Hester? I think if you compare both corps it would either be even or a slight nod to us.

[I]Okay, I'll give that I think Cutler is better than Dalton, not by a whole lot though and I view Cutler as undderrated plus he's a lot more experienced but Dalton has shown the ability to be right there or better down the road[/i].
-GB. Jennings was hurt and missed a bunch of games. You think Gresham played poorly at times? Finley was worse. Rodgers still lit it up. And there's no way I'm giving up AJ Green just to gain Jordy Nelson, who had a down year. Rodgers made Cobb into a star (Similar to Hawkins) He turned James Jones into a stud, which he's not.

Okay, Rodgers is better than Dalton. No need to clear that up but their receiving corp still kills our, period. If those receivers weren't any good then Rodgers would be screwed, they are perfoming and holoding up their end.-Indy. Green > Wayne on age alone. Gresham > Fleener at this point in their careers. I think Hawkins isn't far off of a Avery. I wouldn't trade ours for theirs, but I could see it being a push I guess.

[I]Okay, yea, a push. And Luck is supposed to be God but Dalton had a better rating.[/i]
-Arizona. Green = Fitzgerald. Gresham > that big white dude they just drafted. Then you have a bunch of guys who hadn't done anything yet. They have Floyd who is probably ahead of a guy like Jones. And Doucet and Roberts are similar to a Hawkins type of talent. I'd say this is another tie.

[I]Another one where you're just making the point of the opposing point of view.....The Cards QBs stunk this year....So yea, I'll give that our receiving corp was prolly about the same or better, relative to Dalton, what's that prove?? Quite the opposite of what you're trying to say actually....He's not being elevated unjustly, just the opposite, like Shake and I have maintained, he's being unjustly hated on by those who claim he's garbage and there plenty of folks who do even though that's ridiculous to claim.[/i]
-Baltimore. Yeah Boldin and Smith are a real nice duo. And Jacoby Jones is a great 3rd options. But none of them are even close to Green. And Pitta is meh. Gresham gets the nod there. I will allow that they have better depth, but I wouldn't say they have more firepower. I'd say this is another tie as well.

[I]OMFG no you did not try to got there, you gotta be kidding me with that one.......For realz, that just flat rtarded, makes me think you're trolling tbph.[/i]-Houston. Green is greater than Andre at this point in their careers. Gresham = Daniels. They get the nod with Walter, but not by a ton. Quick, name another receiver on their team. I can't. I honestly think this is a tie at best. I would take our corp 9 out of 10 times.

[I]Even it was a tie, which it's not, so what, Schaub had stretches this season where he looked like garbage. A this advanced stage in his career with that run game and that defense, he's much more worthy of the krap Texans fans give him than is Dalton due the bashing Bengal fans are giving him after just two years with a one weapon offense.[/i]

[I'm in bold above........End of the day, an 87 rating is pretty decent, what exactly did you expect Dalton to be able to do with this team that he didn't do?

I put our inability to beat the Texans on Gruden, who is still unproven. Coaching is the biggest difference.

Dalton is fine, he can get it done, I'm not sure Gruden and Lewis can, that's the problem[/i].

__________________When the opponent is focused and determined, as they tend to be in the big games, Lewis and Dalton melt and disintegrate.... Entirely out of their element.

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by savagehenry54

[I'm in bold above........End of the day, an 87 rating is pretty decent, what exactly did you expect Dalton to be able to do with this team that he didn't do?

I put our inability to beat the Texans on Gruden, who is still unproven. Coaching is the biggest difference.

Dalton is fine, he can get it done, I'm not sure Gruden and Lewis can, that's the problem[/i].

I actually tried to read that three different times (the parts in bold underneath my quotes) to see if I'm missing something. Bro, what the heck are you talking about? Your point on Decker is the only thing that made some sense, in relation to what I actually wrote.

First of all, for the life of me I can't understand why you're asking me if I'd take Rodgers over Dalton or Ponder over Dalton, yada, yada, yada. The QB's had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'll break it down for you:

Shake said he could list at least 20 teams that had better receiving corps than us. To which I replied. I was ranking our recievers vs various other sets. The QB's are pretty much out of the picture in that debate, except when valuing how they may elevate some's play.

I even said you have to consider that Hernandez was gone for weeks 2-10 or whatever, Gronk missed substantial time, Jennings missed time, etc. (In the part you quoted) Later in that same very post I allowed that those corps, from last season were better when healthy.

So what the heck are you trying tell me here? Again I don't get it. I'll re-read your post again, but will you please reread mine? Let's see where the disconnect here is.

Here's my take:

1.) That aren't at least 20 teams with better corps than us.(including TE as stipulated by Shake in the initial post) Fwiw, I listed, I think, 13 teams that I didn't even think even warranted discussion. See: Cleveland, Oakland, Jacksonville, Tennessee, etc.

2.) I did list another group of teams that were better than us, no question asked. I think there was about 8 or 10 or so. That's where I included NE, GB.

3.) I think the teams in between points 1. and 2. you can really make a case that we were better than some or equal with others. (Ex: I had us equal with Ari, but better than Min)

4.) All and all, I think the talent top to bottom for our receiving corp, from AJ Green to Hawkins, and Gresham included, would put us around the 11, 12, 13, 14. range. There's actually probably just a few ties every few spots. But whatever.

5.) It seems like you really don't like me. It's ok. But I don't know what you're trying to school me on here, man.

PS The part I quoted here, I pretty much agree with. I even said some of the same things earlier in the thread. How this all came about is that I think some undervalue the overall level talent we had here in receiving game. AJ Green alone elevates you such a great, great deal. Gresham, while frustrating is still above average. Hawkins is a capable average slot. When you have AJ Green, a lack of proven 2 does not take you down to the bottom 3rd of the league. Those teams don't even legit #1's.

As for the Broncos, Thomas is a freakish talent, and Decker has always shown great abilty. They were just held back (from a statistical standpoint) by playing with Tebow. Stokely may be old, but he's got 7" in height on Hawkins. I would honestly consider Tamme at least as good as Gresh. More reliable hands.
A little better
Bucs: Vincent Jackson, Mike Williams, Tiquan Underwood, Dallas Clark49ers: Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Randy Moss, Vernon DavisCardinals: Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Roberts, Michael Floyd, Rob HouslerLions: Calvin Johnson, Nate Burleson, Titus Young, Brandon Pettigrew (I'm talking last year. I know Titus is gone)Texans: Andre Johnson, Kevin Walter, Owen Daniels, Garrett Graham

Spot on.

And would you lookie there, right there on that list are seven of the eight teams that went farther in the playoffs than did the Bengals. And six of those seven, Pack being the exception, have clearly better running games on top of having better receivers.

Five of those seven have comprable or better defenses, Packers and Pats being the exception.....And even with their God status ELITE QBS......What did the Packers and Pats do this year on SB Sunday?????? They watched it just like the rest of us.

Man I am just always so right. I been tryna tell ya'll this for so long, but I digress....Back to my point....

Which is that basically, this TEAM, is clearly going about as far as it deserves to. It would not be able to do that if the QB were a liability, period.

No facet of this team is dominant enough to over come a bad QB, period. Dalton, young as he is, has to be good in order for this team to have even made the playoffs these last two years.

The offense is AJ or bust. And everyone knows it. It ain't that the better defenses just have everyone go cover AJ.....The better defenses are able to keep AJ reasonably in check and shut Hawkins and Ellis and the boys down pretty well completely.

Dalton did great to put up an 87 rating this past year. We should all be excited to see how good he can be given the proper tools to succeed becuz NO HE ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT HAVE THEM YET.

__________________When the opponent is focused and determined, as they tend to be in the big games, Lewis and Dalton melt and disintegrate.... Entirely out of their element.

Re: ESPN Cleveland QB Rankings (This is going to make some really angry)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toast Jones

I actually tried to read that three different times (the parts in bold underneath my quotes) to see if I'm missing something. Bro, what the heck are you talking about? Your point on Decker is the only thing that made some sense, in relation to what I actually wrote.

First of all, for the life of me I can't understand why you're asking me if I'd take Rodgers over Dalton or Ponder over Dalton, yada, yada, yada. The QB's had nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'll break it down for you:

Shake said he could list at least 20 teams that had better receiving corps than us. To which I replied. I was ranking our recievers vs various other sets. The QB's are pretty much out of the picture in that debate, except when valuing how they may elevate some's play.

So basically, they're not out of the picture.....What else was the whole point of virtually the entire discussion in this thread??

I even said you have to consider that Hernandez was gone for weeks 2-10 or whatever, Gronk missed substantial time, Jennings missed time, etc. (In the part you quoted) Later in that same very post I allowed that those corps, from last season were better when healthy.

So what the heck are you trying tell me here? Again I don't get it. I'll re-read your post again, but will you please reread mine? Let's see where the disconnect here is.

Here's my take:

1.) That aren't at least 20 teams with better corps than us.(including TE as stipulated by Shake in the initial post) Fwiw, I listed, I think, 13 teams that I didn't even think even warranted discussion. See: Cleveland, Oakland, Jacksonville, Tennessee, etc.

2.) I did list another group of teams that were better than us, no question asked. I think there was about 8 or 10 or so. That's where I included NE, GB.

3.) I think the teams in between points 1. and 2. you can really make a case that we were better than some or equal with others. (Ex: I had us equal with Ari, but better than Min)

4.) All and all, I think the talent top to bottom for our receiving corp, from AJ Green to Hawkins, and Gresham included, would put us around the 11, 12, 13, 14. range. There's actually probably just a few ties every few spots. But whatever.

5.) It seems like you really don't like me. It's ok. But I don't know what you're trying to school me on here, man.

PS The part I quoted here, I pretty much agree with. I even said some of the same things earlier in the thread. How this all came about is that I think some undervalue the overall level talent we had here in receiving game. AJ Green alone elevates you such a great, great deal. Gresham, while frustrating is still above average. Hawkins is a capable average slot. When you have AJ Green, a lack of proven 2 does not take you down to the bottom 3rd of the league. Those teams don't even legit #1's.

There were a couple teams, the Ravens for instance that you threw out there and it's like no, just no, their receiving corp is so clearly better than our ya gotta be kidding me.

Other than that, I even said "relative to Dalton", which is to say, okay, their reciever may be almost as krappy as ours but it ain't like their QB is doing anything with that krap so generally speaking within the context of this thread, big whoop. Regardless what your individual discussion with Shake was, I was just throwing it out there cuz that's what the thread is about.

__________________When the opponent is focused and determined, as they tend to be in the big games, Lewis and Dalton melt and disintegrate.... Entirely out of their element.