I've heard talk in a couple threads about wanting a thread for this, and I've been itching to make it for a while so here it is.

Math Rock

What is Math Rock?
(Shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia): "Math rock is a rhythmically complex, guitar-based style of experimental rock music that emerged in the late 1980s. It is characterized by complex, atypical rhythmic structures (including irregular stopping and starting), angular melodies, and dissonant chords."

Simply put, it's an obscure form of rock that uses abnormal time signatures and rhythms and in most cases some dissonance in the song writing. It is similar to Noise Rock in this way (dissonance), and in fact many early Noise Rock bands like Shellac are said to have influenced the genre. Among the first bands to be called "Math Rock" are Don Caballero and Slint, despite not agreeing with the label.

But d0grent, is Math Rock even a real genre? Sure many people recognize that it's silly to label a band specifically as Math Rock and leave it at that, but genres are really just a way to group similar sounding bands together, and it has become commonplace to call bands with these characteristics "Math Rock", so I don't personally have a problem with this label. However, when talking about these bands it is more appropriate to describe them by other means than to simply call them "Math Rock".

I've always heard of them being described as math rock, and it made sense to me because they're one of the only bands I listen to (outside of Hella and some Don Cab, and maybe one or two others) that uses crazy signatures like that, and basically everything you described Math Rock sounding like in the OP. They aren't nearly as crazy as Hella and Giraffes? Giraffes!, at least in the same way those bands are in the example songs you posted, but MTB knows how to freak out, and when they do so, it comes off sounding incredible.

They definitely use 4/4 in some songs, but they just have a pretty unique style of playing. I know they borrowed heavily from the band Pele, but still.

Does anyone know what's up with the new Hella album? They made an announcement about a new 2-piece album, which made me lose my poo poo, because I hated the full band album, but I haven't heard anything since. I really could use a new Hella album, and maybe a tour...

On a different note, can anybody suggest an example of a band that's rhythmically interesting in a math rock kinda sense but still capable of writing good catchy songs? There are plenty of bands that make dissonant complex math rock and plenty of bands that write great melodic 4/4 pop songs (which are both good things), but I feel like I've never heard anyone who's right in between the two extremes and I've always thought that would be my hypothetical ideal band. Bands like Radiohead and Animal Collective can use odd time signatures and polyrhythms in cool ways but still don't approach the complexity of a real Don Cab style math rock band and are still pop in the grand scheme of things. Then there's Battles who get their tunes stuck in my head just fine but who don't really use lyrics and still lean math rock in the end. Long story short there's a void in my musical life that can only be filled with quality math pop. Has anyone invented it yet?

So I clicked your very first sample and it was a song entirely in 4/4 except maybe it got a little loose for a bit, like not any other specific time signature, just they were not really keeping a rhythm for a few moments. I didn't listen to the last minute or so, but just thought it was an odd example for a genre that apparently is defined by uncommon time signatures

I'm neither a music theory expert nor have I listened to more than a few math rock songs, but how many fans of the genre really know what a time signature is? Like how many just hear a lot of starting and stopping in the guitars of what is basically a 4/4 song and assume that something really complicated is going on time signature wise?

Decades posted:

Hail Dillinger

On a different note, can anybody suggest an example of a band that's rhythmically interesting in a math rock kinda sense but still capable of writing good catchy songs? There are plenty of bands that make dissonant complex math rock and plenty of bands that write great melodic 4/4 pop songs (which are both good things), but I feel like I've never heard anyone who's right in between the two extremes and I've always thought that would be my hypothetical ideal band. Bands like Radiohead and Animal Collective can use odd time signatures and polyrhythms in cool ways but still don't approach the complexity of a real Don Cab style math rock band and are still pop in the grand scheme of things. Then there's Battles who get their tunes stuck in my head just fine but who don't really use lyrics and still lean math rock in the end. Long story short there's a void in my musical life that can only be filled with quality math pop. Has anyone invented it yet?

Yes my friend. So Many Dynamos is what you are looking for. You'll find anything that has a poppy sound also has more stable/safe rhythms, but I digress:

maxnmona posted:

I'm neither a music theory expert nor have I listened to more than a few math rock songs, but how many fans of the genre really know what a time signature is? Like how many just hear a lot of starting and stopping in the guitars of what is basically a 4/4 song and assume that something really complicated is going on time signature wise?

A song can be in 4/4 and still have obscure rhythm. I included Don Caballero because they are thought of by many to be one of the originators of math rock, even though the band members have expressed their distaste in being called such. Anyway, they have other songs that do deviate more often into other time signatures.

Edit: I want to clarify that using atypical time signatures is not the only defining characteristic of the genre and most bands use 4/4 in their songs along side other signatures, most often 3/4 and 7/8

maxnmona posted:

I'm neither a music theory expert nor have I listened to more than a few math rock songs, but how many fans of the genre really know what a time signature is? Like how many just hear a lot of starting and stopping in the guitars of what is basically a 4/4 song and assume that something really complicated is going on time signature wise?

Just because it's in 4/4 doesn't make it "not math rock," it might just be syncopation. On the other hand, Drive Like Jehu had a lot of songs in different time signatures but they're not usually considered math rock.

Gah, I came in to recommend So Many Dynamos. Suppose it's a good thing that they've been mentioned already.

so I'll go the more mathcore route and go with one of my tip top favorite newer groups, Rolo Tomassi. Very abrasive, noisy and confusing music but personally I find it gorgeous and brilliant. Sort of like a cross between HORSE the band, Daughters, and also have a lot of straight up noise-rock passages that sometimes remind me of Melt Banana. Their (only? I think) album Hysterics is great.

Stink Dinner posted:

Just because it's in 4/4 doesn't make it "not math rock," it might just be syncopation. On the other hand, Drive Like Jehu had a lot of songs in different time signatures but they're not usually considered math rock.

I have no real idea what math rock is other than that every time I read about it, including in this thread, unusual and multiple time signatures are brought up a lot. So I thought it was weird that the first example in this thread, and a lot of the other examples I've been linked to, don't really do much with time signatures at all.

maxnmona posted:

I have no real idea what math rock is other than that every time I read about it, including in this thread, unusual and multiple time signatures are brought up a lot. So I thought it was weird that the first example in this thread, and a lot of the other examples I've been linked to, don't really do much with time signatures at all.

The OP does not do a very good job at introducing people to the genre!

and cinemechanica is one of the best math rock bands on the planet, if not the best.
they also have a side project called bit brigade where they play the soundtrack for contra, ninja gaiden, and mega man 2 while someone plays the game projecting as the stage backdrop.

why the feds worried bout me clockin on this corner/
when there's politicians out here gettin popped in arizona

global tetrahedron posted:

Does anyone know what's up with the new Hella album? They made an announcement about a new 2-piece album, which made me lose my poo poo, because I hated the full band album, but I haven't heard anything since. I really could use a new Hella album, and maybe a tour...

Really loving excited for this. I actually got to talk to Spencer at a bar in Nevada City (NAMEDROP NAMEDROP) and I asked him what was up with the album. Supposedly it will definitely be out in 2010 and it is just the two of them. I personally loved There's No 666 but I know a lot of people didn't dig the full band and to be honest there's really no reason to do it again. Can't wait to hear the album and I am extremely excited to see just Spencer and Zach tour as Hella; haven't seen just the two of them play since like 03 or 04.

Also seconding Tera Melos, they are such a talented group of musicians that it blows my mind. I'm really liking their new drummer as well; he's got serious chops. Bygones are pretty cool too, I just wish they'd play a show some time.

Another group to check out is Ahleuchatistas, another great "mathrock" group (the phrase mathrock is so horrible). I like the album What You Will a lot but I think they have a new album that just came out.

maxnmona posted:

I have no real idea what math rock is other than that every time I read about it, including in this thread, unusual and multiple time signatures are brought up a lot. So I thought it was weird that the first example in this thread, and a lot of the other examples I've been linked to, don't really do much with time signatures at all.

I just double checked to make sure I wasn't retarded, and the first song definitely uses 4/4, 5/4, and 3/4 so maybe you didn't even listen halfway through the song?

Stink Dinner posted:

The OP does not do a very good job at introducing people to the genre!

Yeah I suppose my song choices weren't the best, but to be honest the ensuing discussion is more valuable than the introduction in most threads in NMD. I'm not gonna pretend like I know more about the genre than a lot of the people that will be attracted to this thread, but it didn't seem like anyone else was willing to make the OP.

Edit: in short I think I went with accesibility over accuracy :\

the great deceiver posted:

(the phrase mathrock is so horrible).

Yeah I had to cringe just a bit every time I typed it out in the op and capitalized it, but there's no other way

I say old chap have you any of the good sort of catnip if you know what I mean... harrumphaarmaammhhhmm

Math rock exists solely to give hipsters like myself a reason to say "One two three, Onetwothreefour, One two threefour five six, One two three four five," while artfully stabbing the air in front of us and possibly clapping out the beat on our thighs.

d0grent posted:

Well this thread like all threads was made for discussion so why don't you discuss whatever questions you think have been "raised".

why the feds worried bout me clockin on this corner/
when there's politicians out here gettin popped in arizona

d0grent posted:

Yeah I had to cringe just a bit every time I typed it out in the op and capitalized it, but there's no other way

No I totally understand you kinda have to use it out of necessity. I'm not sure why I dislike the label so much; probably because "mathrock" sounds so dry and formulaic when a lot of these bands are actually extremely creative and innovative artists. I generally label them as prog when I have to label them but that doesn't really do the style of music justice either. I can't think of anything better to use than mathrock although I did hear one person try to get the name "wizardcore" to stick. Still pretty retarded but I like it better than mathrock.

Rujo King posted:

Math rock exists solely to give hipsters like myself a reason to say "One two three, One two three four, One two three four five six, One two three four five," while artfully stabbing the air in front of us and possibly clapping out the beat on our thighs.

the great deceiver posted:

No I totally understand you kinda have to use it out of necessity. I'm not sure why I dislike the label so much; probably because "mathrock" sounds so dry and formulaic when a lot of these bands are actually extremely creative and innovative artists. I generally label them as prog when I have to label them but that doesn't really do the style of music justice either. I can't think of anything better to use than mathrock although I did hear one person try to get the name "wizardcore" to stick. Still pretty retarded but I like it better than mathrock.

I think the first time I heard of "mathcore" I imagined 4 nerds sitting at desks literally calculating out the placement of notes for their songs on a calculator. Maybe that's why it's annoying to use.

Rujo King posted:

Math rock exists solely to give hipsters like myself a reason to say "One two three, Onetwothreefour, One two threefour five six, One two three four five," while artfully stabbing the air in front of us and possibly clapping out the beat on our thighs.

I do unironically do this while listening to music sometimes, but to be fair I'm a drummer.

I don't think they're very widely considered math, but The Dismemberment Plan are my second favourite band ever and they have more non-4/4 songs than not. They also have one incredible singer/lyricist and Emergency & I in particular is pop genius.

d0grent posted:

I do unironically do this while listening to music sometimes, but to be fair I'm a drummer.

Not a drummer, I do this, enjoy it immensely, that guy can eat a dick. Also, Toe are amazing, even though the concept is essentially "we'll play this nice little song while the drummer shows off". They're probably leaning a bit more to post-rock though. Basically if you like 65daysofstatic you'll probably like Toe.

maxnmona posted:

They switch into 5/4 at 2:03, and into 3/4 at 2:43. When they switch into 3/4 they are even alternating between parts at 4/4 every 4 measures or so.

Duckman2008 posted:

Also, my opinion, but Math Rock = Prog Rock. Just mincing words.

They're definitely very closely related, but I think prog rock tends to have mostly really long drawn out songs and "math rock" tends to be more energetic. Prog Rock is an actual genre of rock though so you have a point.

Seeing as how when someone doesn't know how to describe an indie or metal band these days they'll say math rock/mathcore, this thread is going to see a massive variety in styles and cross-genre escapades.

This is too bad. I saw these guys for the first time in December of 2008 opening for the Fall of Troy and the were really entertaining. The duel vocalists were ripping it and just all around pleasing the crowd.

Business Raptor posted:

I gotta second this band because they are all utterly phenomenal at their instruments, including the drummer who is 13 and still puts a lot of older drummers to shame (although he recently quit the band to be a kid).

The guitarists can sweep pick like no ones fuckin' business. Seriously check these guys out.

Although it isn't exactly mathcore, Spastic Ink is very complex and has everything I would want from a mathcore band. Their album Ink Complete is instrumental and this is great for me as I find mathcore vocals screamo-ish and irritating.

d0grent posted:

They're definitely very closely related, but I think prog rock tends to have mostly really long drawn out songs and "math rock" tends to be more energetic. Prog Rock is an actual genre of rock though so you have a point.

Ha that made me laugh.

Do you guys consider Mute Math "math rock." I do mostly because they have Math in their name. Regardless of genre the band is loving awesome live.

Seriously, King Crimson should be discussed more in this thread. I don't even have much of their stuff and I'm saying that