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Jerry..this is what frustrates me as I'm sure many other Legit Plumbers in this country.
Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

It kills me when I see handymen, Carpenters, etc..touch something they absolutely know nothing about. These guys think Plumbing is so easy..but they don't have the slightest clue as to "why" they are doing it.

What really froths me is..when the tile guy is setting toilets after he re-tiled a floor. I've gone and fixed so many screw up's from tile guys..it's not even funny.
Buy the time I get there..sewer flies are flying all over the place.

IN my area..and I'm sure many others around the country..I seriously question where the Plumbing trade is headed. It's getting to the point, in where we don't need to bring a torch into the house (at least my area).

I'm frustrated now...

I think I need a drink! lol

I still am unclear where you're going with that. To say that putting your time in, paying your dues, studying the code book, taking a test and passing makes a person a better drain cleaner is craziness. I just found 5 homes last week, new homes, one house that had a family and 2 on each side of it that were not sold yet, and all five of the homes weren't connected to the city sewer. The tap for the city was there, the pipe going to the middle of the street was there, it just plain and simply wasn't hooked up. Now they have to dig up this brand new street, in five different spots, just to add, what, one foot of pipe to each. Would I trust that plumber within 100 feet of my cables or customers? Uhm, no. How about the one I found where the family just moved into an older home that was on a slab foundation, that just had the sewer line in the concrete replaced prior to them moving in, ran my cable and my camera and found out one joint in the middle of the living room had a j-cap on the end. Some plumber forgot to hook it up before the concrete was repoured. It was a 2 bath home and they had use of the other bathroom, but now they have to have the living room busted up again just to fix 6 inches of pipe. These are just two recently I have found, I've been in it since '97. There's more, and who was responsible for making sure these two plumbers were qualified and knowledgable?
I go for my license in a couple of months and I do figure if these two nitwits were able to pass it and make money, I should be just fine. But I'm a drain cleaner, and I'll always be a drain cleaner and this plumbing license will have very little to do with how well I clean a drain. I take great offense to being compared (directly or indirectly) to a handyman, carpenter or tile guy. Not because there is anything wrong with any of those three, that is their gig, their specialty, just as drain cleaning is mine. It's apples to oranges.
Bottom line, all cocked p-traps weren't done by drain cleaners. Some of us "un-qualified, un-knowledgable" drain cleaners still take pride in our work and won't leave a house if we think we're going to come back in a day or week for a related problem. There's good and bad in every profession but the way I've seen it, a plumbing license doesn't mean a person knows what he's doing just as no plumbing license doesn't mean a person doesn't know what he's doing. The license is just like a diploma from college, I did my time, I did what was needed, I studied with blood sweat and years and now I can charge for it.

Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

Being licensed does not always mean much as there are some licensed clowns as well. Here is an example of a tub waste and overflow on a 180 unit project. This was new construction and not the only one which was installed this way.

a license means that you passed a test in business laws and trade knowledge. it doesn't mean you actually conduct your business in a legal and ethical fashion.

having a contractors license is not necessarily a guarantee the work you're doing is correct or legal. every few months the state of california releases a new list of contractors that their licenses were revoked. a license is suppose to protect the consumer, in most ways it does, it just takes time for the contractors board to catch up with you.

hiring a qualified plumber or drain cleaner is the key issue. the consumer has to do their homework too.

Being licensed does not always mean much as there are some licensed clowns as well. Here is an example of a tub waste and overflow on a 180 unit project. This was new construction and not the only one which was installed this way.

Mark

let me guess, this was in vegas

the old saying of what goes on in vegas, stays in vegas is not always true

the old saying of what goes on in vegas, stays in vegas is not always true

where you in vegas again? don't you vacation anywhere else

glad you're back thought that dog has gotten you and adam

who left robert in charge

rick.

No it wasn't in Las Vegas and the picture is a couple of years old.

Yes I was in Las Vegas this week but it was one of those last minute things. Here I thought I had three weeks off to catch up on paperwork and I ended up in Vegas again. Now I have two days there next week and the full week the following week.

I left Robert in charge because I figured he was the only grown up left. Plus if anyone gave him any trouble Zeljka would take them out.

I still am unclear where you're going with that. To say that putting your time in, paying your dues, studying the code book, taking a test and passing makes a person a better drain cleaner is craziness. I just found 5 homes last week, new homes, one house that had a family and 2 on each side of it that were not sold yet, and all five of the homes weren't connected to the city sewer. The tap for the city was there, the pipe going to the middle of the street was there, it just plain and simply wasn't hooked up. Now they have to dig up this brand new street, in five different spots, just to add, what, one foot of pipe to each. Would I trust that plumber within 100 feet of my cables or customers? Uhm, no. How about the one I found where the family just moved into an older home that was on a slab foundation, that just had the sewer line in the concrete replaced prior to them moving in, ran my cable and my camera and found out one joint in the middle of the living room had a j-cap on the end. Some plumber forgot to hook it up before the concrete was repoured. It was a 2 bath home and they had use of the other bathroom, but now they have to have the living room busted up again just to fix 6 inches of pipe. These are just two recently I have found, I've been in it since '97. There's more, and who was responsible for making sure these two plumbers were qualified and knowledgable?
I go for my license in a couple of months and I do figure if these two nitwits were able to pass it and make money, I should be just fine. But I'm a drain cleaner, and I'll always be a drain cleaner and this plumbing license will have very little to do with how well I clean a drain. I take great offense to being compared (directly or indirectly) to a handyman, carpenter or tile guy. Not because there is anything wrong with any of those three, that is their gig, their specialty, just as drain cleaning is mine. It's apples to oranges.
Bottom line, all cocked p-traps weren't done by drain cleaners. Some of us "un-qualified, un-knowledgable" drain cleaners still take pride in our work and won't leave a house if we think we're going to come back in a day or week for a related problem. There's good and bad in every profession but the way I've seen it, a plumbing license doesn't mean a person knows what he's doing just as no plumbing license doesn't mean a person doesn't know what he's doing. The license is just like a diploma from college, I did my time, I did what was needed, I studied with blood sweat and years and now I can charge for it.

If you're unclear where I was going with this, then you don't know Plumbing theory, and you couldn't possibly be going for you Master Plumbing license. Because to be honest with you..everyone who responded after me, understood exactly where I was going with this..except yourself.

Plus, you didn't comprehend what I clearly stated in what I wrote...instead you wanted to attack first, and ask questions later.

Guys who clean drains (who are NOT Licensed Plumbers) could put the trap back together with it being cocked.
You're correct on 1 thing..I've seen Plumbers do it as well..but the difference is..the know better, cause they should of learned that both in school, and on the job. There is a reason why Plumbers AND Drain Cleaning mechanics should be required by law to have a Plumbing license.

My response wasn't about drain cleaning..it was about Drain cleaning mechanics who should be licensed.

I hate to correct you again, cause it makes me sound like "I'm a know it all", and I'm by far that. BUT..Having a Master Plumbing license is not just a piece of paper like you just described. Having a Master Plumbing license let's the consumer know that you know Plumbing Theory...and when you get stuck on a fitting..or camming a line..you know what you're looking at or how to fix it.
You need Plumbing theory in order to do your job..and that's is a stone cold fact! So yes..a Master Plumbing license is very relevant in doing Drain cleaning. Having a Master Plumbing license means..you know the difference between a code violation(possibly the reason a sewer line is backing up)..and something that is done by code.

You can pay your dues the trade all you want..but there is a MAJOR difference between doing the job..and the theory behind it. That is why we are forced to have at least 4 years of schooling on top of 5 years in the field.
Another example..anyone can claim to know how to install a boiler..but how many have the theory behind it to service it?

Let me touch on something else you said. You right away wanted to attack Plumbers for making mistakes ..and I agree with you.

However..let's not confuse New Construction with Service work..2 different animals. Everyone knows new work is much simpler then Service work.
Where am I going with this? You get Plumbing companies who hire young kids out of school or tech school to do Plumbing. These guys are in the trade 6 months..and know absolutely nothing about the Plumbing trade. Their bosses are giving them trucks..and they are trading under 1 master Plumbing license.
I see the same violations as you do....but at the same time..90% of these kids are going to Plumbing school while they work.

You won't see too many young kids doing service work..they just don't have the knowledge to do it. You will mostly likely see guys with a little grey around the ears or..someone in their late 20's to early 30's.

I did both...and I also got a Big head when I did new work. I thought.."My god..Plumbing isn't that hard". I was right in one sense..New Construction is easy..when you're installing it new.
When we got out of new work many moons ago..I got knock right back down to earth...doing service work separates the men from the boys in this trade. You will find that everyone here will agree with that statement.

Bottom line is..and in most States..you need a Mater Plumbing license to clean drains..and there is a reason behind it...because of theory. If you didn't need a Master Plumbing license..the BIG Drain Machine companies wouldn't bother getting them.

Anyone can shove a snake down a drain line. It's the ones with Plumbing theory who know how to fix it, and correct the problem, and offer practical Plumbing solutions on how to fix it.

In so many words..with you saying a Plumbing License has nothing to do with drain cleaning..or how YOU clean a drain, and is no big deal...is a major slap in the face to every Master Plumber who had to read what you just said.

I agree that in aperfect world, people should know what they are doing!!
i have seen a lot of the same stuff that you talk about, but i am saying what goes on in this world that we live in, if you can rent a cable snake mach. any where in town. some can make money without carrying a master lic.
like i say i do check with the plumbing board where i work so i i know what they require to do drains, if you want to change this, change the laws in your state. JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER

Jerry -

Man..we had a few Plumbing associations go to the State of Pennsylvania a few times. We tried very hard for years to have 1 code in this state ..and they finally listened..but with a very weak and easy Plumbing code (international). Pittsburgh and Philly fought the associations tooth and nail.

Our associations asked for a slew of things..and everything fell on deaf ears. IMO..we went about it all wrong..we shouldn't of asked..we should of sued from the get go. That is why I have a major problem with the PHCC...they want me to join..and they want my money..but for what? They coward and folded up when it came to going after the State of Pennsylvania...they did NOTHING to help it's members here.

It's a mess here in my area.

What's really worse is..we have area's in where you don't have to be a licensed Plumber to do work! What I want to know is..how do these townships get away with it, when the board of health and state says other wise? I was told that each township has to adopt that law.

If I was a Billionaire I would have this state,townships,inspectors..everyone locked up in court forever. I would do everything in my power to protect this trade in our state.

You guys in heavily coded areas with tough inspectors...be thankful..you guys don't have this mess we have here. My area is loaded with illegal Plumbers and jack of all trades doing Plumbing.

Jerry..this is what frustrates me as I'm sure many other Legit Plumbers in this country.
Here is my argument..if an un-licensed Drain Cleaning tech puts the trap back on a sink, and the trap is cocked..potentially letting sewer gas into the house and getting everyone sick, who is responsible in making sure these guys are qualified and to make sure the Home Owner isn't hiring an un-knowledgeable person?

How many times have we all saw cocked traps under sinks?

It kills me when I see handymen, Carpenters, etc..touch something they absolutely know nothing about. These guys think Plumbing is so easy..but they don't have the slightest clue as to "why" they are doing it.

What really froths me is..when the tile guy is setting toilets after he re-tiled a floor. I've gone and fixed so many screw up's from tile guys..it's not even funny.
Buy the time I get there..sewer flies are flying all over the place.

IN my area..and I'm sure many others around the country..I seriously question where the Plumbing trade is headed. It's getting to the point, in where we don't need to bring a torch into the house (at least my area).

I'm frustrated now...

I think I need a drink! lol

Very Well Said!! We have a huge problem with illegals and unlicensed handyman wanna be plumbers. What pisse* me off is that they will work for less then half what I will work for. Do a crap job and the customer dosen't care, as long as it was cheap.

I have been hearing some regrets from customers that have paid a handyman, tile guy's, home depot parking lot loiterers "so called plumbers" that they regret it.

I take alot of pride in what I do! I am very saddened to see where the trade is going. Scary, I am glad to have this forum, this place is for the tradesman that really care about the trade

I will close with a funny story, I was working in Manhattan Beach one day, I was repairing a leak and a guy came over from the neighbors, asking me in broken english to help him, I figured I would go and look at what he was doing, His help and himself were trying to install a shower valve with seperate diverter, (I don't speak spanish) so I couldn't communicate with him, I looked at the project, shook my head and walked out..........they had electrical tape on the MIP's in the shower valve........

Comment

Being a drain cleaner I have to agree with Draintech1 but I also see your point ozone, but I do think having to obtain a plumbing license to do drain cleaning is a bit excessive. I would agree though that some type of certification or drain cleaning license should be required.
In Maine, even without a plumbing license I can do service work (i don't unless for friends/family). I can legally repair/replace any plumbing but I,m not allowed to make any changes even if it's not to code. So in theory I can legally take all the plumbing out of a home as long as I replace it the same way. It's pretty scary that any Joe schmo can do this. I have a fair understanding of plumbing but not alot of knowledge of code/techniques. Even with as much I THINK I KNOW, I don't think I'm qualified to do service work beyond the basics.
I have more to add but for now I'm off to the beach

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a license means that you passed a test in business laws and trade knowledge. it doesn't mean you actually conduct your business in a legal and ethical fashion.

having a contractors license is not necessarily a guarantee the work you're doing is correct or legal. every few months the state of california releases a new list of contractors that their licenses were revoked. a license is suppose to protect the consumer, in most ways it does, it just takes time for the contractors board to catch up with you.

hiring a qualified plumber or drain cleaner is the key issue. the consumer has to do their homework too.

rick.

Exactly Rick,

This is the first one i agree with you.

That's why i'm seriously thinking to call cslb and offer them place to stay while they are catching not licensed peope

I'm not mean but i want more jobs for robert No,just kidding.but seriously,it is making me mad when people who love their trade are being run down by people who don't give a damn about nothing or a customer but just money.

ON phcc show we talked to cslb and they said the reason why they are not so much here in los angeles is beacuse they dont have places to stay while they are doing the operation.

They said if we ever wwant to offer them a place to stay while their doing it that would be great..

And i might will..

On the other hand americans are the one that are giving them jobs. They want everything for a cheap price and that's why they hire unlicense person.

Being a drain cleaner I have to agree with Draintech1 but I also see your point ozone, but I do think having to obtain a plumbing license to do drain cleaning is a bit excessive. I would agree though that some type of certification or drain cleaning license should be required.
In Maine, even without a plumbing license I can do service work (i don't unless for friends/family). I can legally repair/replace any plumbing but I,m not allowed to make any changes even if it's not to code. So in theory I can legally take all the plumbing out of a home as long as I replace it the same way. It's pretty scary that any Joe schmo can do this. I have a fair understanding of plumbing but not alot of knowledge of code/techniques. Even with as much I THINK I KNOW, I don't think I'm qualified to do service work beyond the basics.
I have more to add but for now I'm off to the beach

Gene -
I'm quickly finding out here..it's a matter of where you live, and how the Plumbing code is interpreted and state laws.

If we hire out to be a Plumber in all 50 states..the law says we have to be licensed. Drain Techs or any other profession should NOT be excluded from this law, because you are touching something Plumbing related. If we are forced to have a license..so should everyone else.

Having a Plumbing license means you understand Plumbing theory,code's, and laws.

You may think is excessive to have a license for Drain cleaning, but there are code violations that can cause a drain to be slow or not function properly. A person would only know that, by going to school and learning Plumbing theory.

Drain cleaners also do Plumbing related things..as any Plumber would do. If you break a trap under a sink..you are not going to call a Plumber out to fix it, you're going to fix it yourself.
People fail to realize that Plumber's protect the health of the nation against disease. Drain related issues such as broken traps being installed back properly fall into this category. I guarantee you it's in every Plumbing code book across the Nation.

Just like if you break a sewer line with your cable, and have to replace that section. You have to have the proper pitch, cause you can't have the liquids passing the solids.

Knowing theory also teaches you when a line is over sized or undersized. If something is over-sized, you are not washing the walls down inside the pipe...if it's undersized, it's taking too long to drain.

All of this falls into stuff that Drain mechanics come across...and that's why they should be required by law to have a License.

How you could agree with Drain tech boggles my mind...I'm sorry.

Step back for a second..and put yourself in a Plumber's shoes...you would agree.

Comment

Typically drain cleaning companies are maintenance companies and do not have to be licensed plumbers in many jurisdictions. However, they are also very limited in what they are permitted to do as it is assumed their knowledge is also limited. Most of the jurisdictions I work with put a monetary limit on the value of any work done by a non-licensed Contractor. That limit is cumulative so it cuts out most repeat business. For example if the limit for a non-licensed Contractor in a jurisdiction is $500 that is the maximum you can charge a single customer in your lifetime.

While drain cleaning companies do not need to be licensed plumbers I believe it would be prudent for the owner of any drain cleaning business to be licensed. That does not take away from the ability of the non-licensed drain cleaner it simple increases their ability to earn money as a drain cleaner.

Mark

"Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

Comment

I wish more plumbers cared about what they do like ozone89 does. I've had countless jobs where a plumber would try to run a mainline with his "one size fits all" type of snake. I then goto his job with seweage backed into the bathtub and toilet. Oviously this is anything but sanitary.