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This house is in the town where I live...I actually put gas in my car today at the station to the left of this house (the red roof line)...to me this says a lot...my hometown has been for decades a racist community, and how sad that is...from the early 60's with the murder of a young African American woman to just a few years ago when the school was banned from sports for racist remarks at a game...this town has had a history of racism....flying the confederate flag in my community leans more towards a white America, than standing for the southern heritage...however the display of Obama's sign gives me hope that change is on the way even in my small hometown...Martinsville, Indiana...

Edited to add the local paper article...

MARTINSVILLE

Brenda and Harold Livingston don’t talk politics.

People in the world of politics, however, are talking quite a bit about the display in their front yard and the perceived mixed message it presents. The front yard has a flag pole with the United States flag on top and below it a Confederate battle flag. A few feet from the flagpole is a sign supporting the presidential candidacy of Sen. Barack Obama, the first African-American running as a major party’s presidential candidate.

Harold Livingston, assistant manager of a gas station near his home, said today he was wondering why so many people were stopping at his house and taking pictures. One of the photographs ended up being posted at politico.com, a national political Web site.

While unknown persons have secretly hung effigies of Obama and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin in public places in Clarksville, Lexington, Ky., and elsewhere, the Livingtons are far from being anonymous.

“I guess we’ve got a photographic house,” he said of attention the home has received.

Livingston says he’s the one who put up the Confederate flag and his wife, Brenda, is the Obama supporter.

Although some people regard the Confederate flag as a racist symbol, Livingston said that’s not the case. Those who think the flag is racist are probably racist themselves, he said.

“I think it’s (the flag is) about the South and it’s a pretty flag,” he said.

In the Livingstons’ back yard, a pirate flag flies atop another flagpole. The flags aren’t about politics, he said.

“I don’t vote,” he says. “It doesn’t matter what president we have.”

The bigger problem, he said, is members of Congress who serve more than eight years, the maximum a president can hold office,

Brenda Livingston is a nurse practicing in Mooresville and an ordained minister. A registered Republican, she has canvassed for Obama, a Democrat, and even met Michelle Obama, the wife of the Illinois senator.

The flag on display is not the official confederate flag... it is the "Battle Flag of the Confederacy" (Navy Jack) but, many people use this flag to pay homige to the south...and or hate for others... there were 3 national flags for the confederacy...1st- Flag of the confederacy (the stars and bars) 2nd (the stainless banner) and third (the national flag) I look at it as a part of history.... nothing more nothing less...

The flag on display is not the official confederate flag... it is the "Battle Flag of the Confederacy" (Navy Jack) but, many people use this flag to pay homige to the south...and or hate for others... there were 3 national flags for the confederacy...1st- Flag of the confederacy (the stars and bars) 2nd (the stainless banner) and third (the national flag) I look at it as a part of history.... nothing more nothing less...

My Family has deep roots in the old south Cartersville GA. (on my fathers side) and I have to agree with you on that , it's not a bad thing or racist thing, I look at it as a part of history.... nothing more nothing less...

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

I always fail to understand this concept of "paying homage to the South" -- it's a flag that represents a separatist movement that was based on the race-based forced servitude of Africans. Let's just call it what it was.

And I went to college in the capital of the Confederacy, so don't write me off as some uppity Yankee.

I'm an Uppity Yankee..........Born in Southern Calif. raised in Northern Calif. this doesn't bother me at all (the whole (California thing) I've been called a lot worse before.......I never even knew racism until I went to the East Coast (South New Jersey & Long Island) there ,I found out what it really was it was NOT FUN

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 06:09:46 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Yes, not too many know this, during the Civil War, we were also known as Yankees how do you think the West was Won, it was won by Yankees, so, yes Calies are Yankees, but were on the west coast but whatever you do, please don't call a TEXAN a Yankee, cuz it won't end well..........LOL

I always fail to understand this concept of "paying homage to the South" -- it's a flag that represents a separatist movement that was based on the race-based forced servitude of Africans. Let's just call it what it was.

“I think it’s (the flag is) about the South and it’s a pretty flag,” he said.

Harold apparently cares more about the aesthetics than the message so lets review that, shall we. Personally I think the house is adorable. I love the tasteful color choices. Props for the understated scarcrow, the simple cross on the attached building and the window boxes. The welcome sign is a nice touch too. The flag poll however is completely disproportionate to the house and the base of the flag poll looks like a tombstone, so unless there is a corpse under there it needs to be rethought. Overall I find it charming.

People move all over today from north to south... from east to west and vice versa on the northern continent of america there really are no variences where people reside today... My dad was from New York my mom was from Tennessee... whose family fought for the Union... the war between the states was not based on slavery... it was based on the Right to succeed from the Union... slavery was an after math... it was mainly economics... guess where slavery started and still exists... oh in Africa... the first black nation in the western hemisphere to liberate and abolish slavery was Haiti... who now condons a type of slavery today... restaveks (children enslaved) the work slave is from the word slavic... which is part of my ancestry... so I should be the one to complain about slavery for myself... it is a Ugly part of history... inwhich still exists all over the world...

it's a flag that represents a separatist movement that was based on the race-based forced servitude of Africans.

or rather, it's a flag that represents a separatist movement that was based on states rights (with a major underlying issue of race-based slavery). It's why now, after the Civil War, we pay homage to our great Federalist government based in Washington DC.

I always reframe the discussion in that form because most Southerns were poor, and most did NOT own slaves. That was always the perview of a small group of rich old white men. For most Southerners (black and white) that was the flag that flew over them as the Yankees invaded (burning, pillaging, and killing Southerners along the way), and that's why they are attached to it and still display it.

By 1860 sectional disagreements between North and South revolved primarily around the maintenance or expansion of slavery. Historian Drew Gilpin Faust observed that, "leaders of the secession movement across the South cited slavery as the most compelling reason for southern independence."[23] Related and intertwined secondary issues also fueled the dispute; these secondary differences (real or perceived) included tariffs, agrarianism vs. industrialization, and states' rights. The immediate spark for secession was the victory of the Republican Party and the election of Abraham Lincoln in the 1860 election. Civil War historian James McPherson wrote:

To southerners the election’s most ominous feature was the magnitude of Republican victory north of the 41st parallel. Lincoln won more than 60 percent of the vote in that region, losing scarcely two dozen counties. Three-quarters of the Republican congressmen and senators in the next Congress would represent this “Yankee” and antislavery portion of the free states. These facts were “full of portentous significance” declared the New Orleans Crescent. “The idle canvas prattle about Northern conservatism may now be dismissed,” agreed the Richmond Examiner. “A party founded on the single sentiment... of hatred of African slavery, is now the controlling power.” No one could any longer “be deluded... that the Black Republican party is a moderate” party, pronounced the New Orleans Delta. “It is in fact, essentially, a revolutionary party.”[24]

Four of the seceding states, the Deep South states of South Carolina,[25] Mississippi,[26] Georgia,[27] and Texas,[28] issued formal declarations of causes, each of which identified the threat to slaveholders’ rights as the cause of, or a major cause of, secession; Georgia also claimed a general Federal policy of favoring Northern over Southern economic interests. In what later came to be known as the Cornerstone Speech, C.S. Vice President Alexander Stephens declared that the "cornerstone" of the new government "rest[ed] upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth".[29]

Historian William J. Cooper Jr., in his biography of the Confederate president Jefferson Davis, wrote, “From at least the time of the American Revolution white southerners defined their liberty, in part, as the right to own slaves and to decide the fate of the institution without any outside interference.”[30] Speaking specifically of Davis, Cooper wrote:

For his entire life he believed in the superiority of the white race. He also owned slaves, defended slavery as moral and as a social good, and fought a great war to maintain it. After 1865 he opposed new rights for blacks. He rejoiced at the collapse of Reconstruction and the reassertion of white superiority with its accompanying black subordination.[31]

In his farewell speech to the United States Congress, Davis made it clear that the secession crisis had stemmed from the Republican Party's failure "to recognize our domestic institutions [an acknowledged euphemism for slavery] which pre-existed the formation of the Union -- our property which was guarded by the Constitution."[32][edit]

No, it was not a State back then, but it was Liberated by Yankees..........not in the same way the old South was.....by, burning, pillaging, and killing...........it was migrated too, and still is Today.....ever heard of the sayin "Go West" people did just that to find a better way of life, ( The ones that stayed that is)

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 12:11:07 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

or rather, it's a flag that represents a separatist movement that was based on states rights (with a major underlying issue of race-based slavery). It's why now, after the Civil War, we pay homage to our great Federalist government based in Washington DC.

I always reframe the discussion in that form because most Southerns were poor, and most did NOT own slaves. That was always the perview of a small group of rich old white men. For most Southerners (black and white) that was the flag that flew over them as the Yankees invaded (burning, pillaging, and killing Southerners along the way), and that's why they are attached to it and still display it. sorry. "Yankees" lived north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi. California wasn't even a state during the civil war.

the war between the states was not based on slavery... it was based on the Right to succeed from the Union... slavery was an after math... it was mainly economics...

Wow. So all those African-Americans currently living in the South, whose families were there during the civil war, and who think this flag represents HATE... they just don't get it, right? They jus ignant, right?

I'm sorry, I find some of the political views expressed here frightening.

People move all over today from north to south... from east to west and vice versa on the northern continent of america there really are no variences where people reside today... My dad was from New York my mom was from Tennessee... whose family fought for the Union... the war between the states was not based on slavery... it was based on the Right to succeed from the Union... slavery was an after math... it was mainly economics... guess where slavery started and still exists... oh in Africa... the first black nation in the western hemisphere to liberate and abolish slavery was Haiti... who now condons a type of slavery today... restaveks (children enslaved) the work slave is from the word slavic... which is part of my ancestry... so I should be the one to complain about slavery for myself... it is a Ugly part of history... inwhich still exists all over the world...

(said by leartherman)most Southerns were poor, and most did NOT own slaves. That was always the perview of a small group of rich old white men..............that statement is not true

Interesting here's my question to you? I have found my family history that go's way back to the "Old South" and I found out that my family ( On My Fathers side Owned Slaves) and he was Black/Irishso what in the hell does that make me? anyway you look at it ,I'm still considered Black, and always will be........ my birth Certificate says " NEGRO on it

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 12:34:17 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

But I also understand that certain symbols are hateful, or represent hateful histories.

The confederate battle flag is one such symbol and I have a hard time justifying its being flown.

It would be like flying a Nazi flag in a Jewish neighbor hood. Yes, it is part of history. But, it is still a very hateful image for many.

It isn't that I expect everyone to be PC all the time. I'm certainly not.

But, there is a difference between that and hanging a symbol of hate outside your home.

There are statues in the plaza in Santa Fe commemorating the "settling" of the Rio Grande Valley by the Spaniards.

Wrong, the Spaniards didn't settle New Mexico, they conquered the people who already lived here. They forced their lifestyle and religion on them and killed off those who fought back.

If you visit the plaza today, you will see where inscriptions on the statues there have been defaced, especially those describing the original inhabitants of New Mexico as savages, etc.

Yes, those statutes are part of history. In a way, I am sorry to see they have been defaced because the utter thoughtlessness of the inscriptions is so blatant to me, but obviously wasn't to those who carved them.

I also understand the underlying hate those statues and the inscriptions on them conveyed to the conquered people.

We cannot say some symbols are simply historic memorabilia when they have an onerous or hateful connotation.

But maybe their continued existence is a good thing because it reminds us what happened and, maybe, just maybe, may prevent us repeating the mistakes of the past.

But I also understand that certain symbols are hateful, or represent hateful histories.

The confederate battle flag is one such symbol and I have a hard time justifying its being flown.

It would be like flying a Nazi flag in a Jewish neighbor hood. Yes, it is part of history. But, it is still a very hateful image for many.

It isn't that I expect everyone to be PC all the time. I'm certainly not.

But, there is a difference between that and hanging a symbol of hate outside your home.

There are statues in the plaza in Santa Fe commemorating the "settling" of the Rio Grande Valley by the Spaniards.

Wrong, the Spaniards didn't settle New Mexico, they conquered the people who already lived here. They forced their lifestyle and religion on them and killed off those who fought back.

If you visit the plaza today, you will see where inscriptions on the statues there have been defaced, especially those describing the original inhabitants of New Mexico as savages, etc.

Yes, those statutes are part of history. In a way, I am sorry to see they have been defaced because the utter thoughtlessness of the inscriptions is so blatant to me, but obviously wasn't to those who carved them.

I also understand the underlying hate those statues and the inscriptions on them conveyed to the conquered people.

We cannot say some symbols are simply historic memorabilia when they have an onerous or hateful connotation.

But maybe their continued existence is a good thing because it reminds us what happened and, maybe, just maybe, may prevent us repeating the mistakes of the past.

HUGS,

Mark-

THANK YOU! very well stated Mark

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves. More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. The few individuals who owned 50 or more slaves were confined to the top one percent, and have been defined as slave magnates.

In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6).

so I would not play this card... I wish the school system taught True history from k-12 but, in all subjects even sex education need to be taught Unbiased!

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves. More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. The few individuals who owned 50 or more slaves were confined to the top one percent, and have been defined as slave magnates.

In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6).

so I would not play this card... I wish the school system taught True history from k-12 but, in all subjects even sex education need to be taught Unbiased!

Very interesting find, history books (the ones taught in school leave out a lot of what is the truth) also the BIBLE is so, misconstrued, it aint even funny but as far as the BIBLE gos, I'm not going down that road, we'd have to start another thread on that one...........

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 01:41:55 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

oh man the bible... yes alot of text were left out and many were mistranslated to suit the needs of the Church... I dont want to get off the suject ... that's a touchy one. Well I made my point whether ones agree and or not... everyone has an opinion. I just see the flag as a flag with no meaning other than its location... a time period in the past... plus its not the real confederate flag... in the first place. I have on my own home... the United States flag with a 6' sign that just states VOTE!

The Sarah Palin effigy with a noose around the neck ...I find it appauling... but, its someones right to expression.. Wow I wonder how people would have reacted if an effigy of Obama was hanging with a noose around the neck? I would find that appauling also but, How Many people would be screaming through the roof and protesting about this? I saw the news on this story and I thought long and hard on this subject so I thought it was best for me not to post. It seems if someones Opinion that may not corresspond to anothers liking causes alot of CONFLICT on this board...

The Sarah Palin effigy with a noose around the neck ...I find it appauling... but, its someones right to expression.. Wow I wonder how people would have reacted if an effigy of Obama was hanging with a noose around the neck? I would find that appauling also but, How Many people would be screaming through the roof and protesting about this? I saw the news on this story and I thought long and hard on this subject so I thought it was best for me not to post. It seems if someones Opinion that may not corresspond to anothers liking causes alot of CONFLICT on this board...

(said by peter)

I'm sorry, I find some of the political views expressed here frightening.

ain't that the truth but, everyone loves a good debate

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Its not a flag of hate to everyone its a flag of heritage... sorta like how some countrys burn the American flag in protest... because to them its a flag of hate but, to Americans its our flag... Flags, symbols can have many meanings some bad and some good... I think its the intention of the person whose displaying the symbol, flag etc... ... What are they trying to say... their purpose...Remembering their families history and a part of history... or are they displaying it as some concocted reason to show hate... but, I would not bring up the race card... if thats the way someone feels then I guess thats their problem... its Whats the true intention in displaying it?

I do understand why the rebel flag invokes harsh feelings in some people. When I was seventeen I had a pretty bad experience getting beat down at a gas station one time by a group of guys in a pickup truck with a rebel tint screen across the back window. Their reason for doing so, or at least the reason they justified it, was because my girlfriend was black. Luckily they never touched her, I on the other hand did not fair so well in my beat down.

That happend twenty one years ago and it still is pretty fresh in my memory.

The other day I was at the corner store and a guy was in front of me in line with a huge rebel flag tattoo on his shoulder. He looked the part. Dirty, scraggly hair, no shirt, and a twelve pack of Budweiser in hand. The store owner and the guy where having a conversation about the election. I could not believe my ears!

The redneck was saying we need a change. We've had a white guy in office for the last eight years who has fucked this country up beyond repair... These were his words by the way. He went on to say that he voted for Obama, did not care about his race one bit... I was walking out the door at this point. I was a bit surprised... Then again I wonder if he had his friends around and saw my wife and I if I would have been subjected to another beat down like I was when I was seventeen.

The Sarah Palin effigy with a noose around the neck ...I find it appauling... but, its someones right to expression.. Wow I wonder how people would have reacted if an effigy of Obama was hanging with a noose around the neck?

Well the two homos living in hollywood who have it as decorations on their house with McCain on fire out of the chimney were interviewed... the city council and Mayor asked if they would remove it but, they stated that it was their freedom of speech and intended it to stay... so no I do not think it was Faked... nor do I really care... I think its just appauling but, I did state if Obama was hanging by a noose ... People would be in an uproar... and rightfully so... but, a white woman whether you like it or not does not get the same response? Its a shame. But, I am sure you think its appropriate...

I do understand why the rebel flag invokes harsh feelings in some people. When I was seventeen I had a pretty bad experience getting beat down at a gas station one time by a group of guys in a pickup truck with a rebel tint screen across the back window. Their reason for doing so, or at least the reason they justified it, was because my girlfriend was black. Luckily they never touched her, I on the other hand did not fair so well in my beat down.

That happend twenty one years ago and it still is pretty fresh in my memory.

The other day I was at the corner store and a guy was in front of me in line with a huge rebel flag tattoo on his shoulder. He looked the part. Dirty, scraggly hair, no shirt, and a twelve pack of Budweiser in hand. The store owner and the guy where having a conversation about the election. I could not believe my ears!

The redneck was saying we need a change. We've had a white guy in office for the last eight years who has fucked this country up beyond repair... These were his words by the way. He went on to say that he voted for Obama, did not care about his race one bit... I was walking out the door at this point. I was a bit surprised... Then again I wonder if he had his friends around and saw my wife and I if I would have been subjected to another beat down like I was when I was seventeen.

Change is happening, however slow, it is happening....

Interesting story, yes we have come a long way in 20 yrs. (with RACE) but, we still have a long way to go in the LGBT Community just think of that, if we as a nation can get rid of both Race & Gender prejudice as well as economic problems, we would have really come all the way but I really don't think all of this will happen all at once, at least NOT in my life time

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 05:53:08 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

I never even knew racism until I went to the East Coast (South New Jersey & Long Island) there ,I found out what it really was it was NOT FUN

Sorry for quoting myself, but, I wanted to explain that statement form a previous post earlier in this thread

My Racism that both me & my otherhalf experienced in (South New Jersey & New Yorks' Long Island) had nothing to do with the color of my skin, nor the fact that my otherhalf is white, it was because we were Proud and out Gay............that is what they didn't like about us, back in 2002 when we went back there to visit Bob's family most of them ( his mom & dad were very nice) but his sisters & bothers were NOT, in fact they knew we were there for a whole week and NEVER even bothered to show up and say Hello to us when Bob ask some of them why, here what they said " it's not you, it's your lifestyle we don't approve of"

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 06:16:55 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

or rather, it's a flag that represents a separatist movement that was based on states rights (with a major underlying issue of race-based slavery). It's why now, after the Civil War, we pay homage to our great Federalist government based in Washington DC.

I always reframe the discussion in that form because most Southerns were poor, and most did NOT own slaves. That was always the perview of a small group of rich old white men. For most Southerners (black and white) that was the flag that flew over them as the Yankees invaded (burning, pillaging, and killing Southerners along the way), and that's why they are attached to it and still display it. sorry. "Yankees" lived north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi. California wasn't even a state during the civil war.

WRONG!!! take look at this: California was indeed a FREE UNION STATE The United States map of 1865, shows affiliation of states and territories regarding the Secession War (Civil War.) Legend:

If you look at this map and really read it, you will find, that statement you made about Calif. is NOT TURE Calif. become a State in 1850...............The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States and several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. ...

I'm not sure what argument you're attempting to make. California's involvement in the Civil War was minimal -- traveling from the east to California was like going to the moon.

Never said CA. was involved in the Civil War, just wanted to clarify to Leartherman, that CA. become a State back in 1850, before the Civil War (1861 to 1865) even started, he said it was not......also the term "Dam Yankees refers to all of the Union states that are Blue in color, so, Californians are in fact "Yankees"

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 08:28:47 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Hey not sure if it's been mentioned -it's always been my understanding it was the republicans (Lincoln) that freed the slaves and the Democrats that didn't want to end it...funny how times have changed..To be Clear I already voted Obama but I do think it's an odd history these parties have..

...funny how times have changed..To be Clear I already voted Obama but I do think it's an odd history these parties have..

The basic difference is that Republicans follow a conservative philosophy and Democrats follow a liberal philosophy.

A liberal would say that a proper role for government is to regulate and oversee the economy. Liberals say it's proper for government to ensure that companies do the right thing (such as pay minimum wages), and to ensure that people act responsibly in their finances (such as requiring contributions to retirement savings).

A conservative would say that a proper role for government is to regulate and oversee morality. Conservatives say it's proper for government to ensure that people are punished for immoral acts (such as taking drugs), and that people act appropriately in their marriages (such as banning homosexual marriage).

A libertarian would say that neither of those is a proper role for government. Libertarians say that the only proper role is to maintain an army for defense against invasion, to maintain a court system for ensuring justice, and other constitutionally defined roles.

A populist would say that both economic and moral intervention are proper roles for government.

Some people classify libertarians as conservatives and some classify populists as liberals. Those definitions fall apart when libertarians talk about moral issues like abortion (pro-choice) or drugs (pro-legalization).

Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan both consider themselves "populists," but the press usually classifies Nader as liberal and Buchanan as conservative. Yet they agree entirely on their most important issue, opposing free trade and globalization.

The problem with a one-dimensional definition like liberal and conservative is that it doesn't define well political reality. The two-dimensional definition is better.

Obama is a Democratic Socialist where as MCcain is a Moderate Republican

and in my opinion whoever wins the White House, there job is not going to be easyit may take up to 2 terms ( 8yrs. to really fix all this Mess) and...yes change is comingbut, do keep in mind, that it won't happen a fast as we all want it too, it's slow, but takes time....

« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 11:45:52 AM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

Hey not sure if it's been mentioned -it's always been my understanding it was the republicans (Lincoln) that freed the slaves and the Democrats that didn't want to end it...

True in theory I guess. I always felt it was the Unions way of crushing the South. The North was far more industrialized, while the South was pretty much a cotton producing entity. Of course there's much more to it than my simple idea here, but after the war the Republicans, and the North for that matter, wanted very little to do with a black person.

There really was no great life awarded to the black race after the war was over sadly. If they were lucky, and I say this loosely, they became share croppers with very little rights and few rewards if any.... hence stories of slaves returning to the plantation wanting their ex-slave masters to take them back.

True in theory I guess. I always felt it was the Unions way of crushing the South. The North was far more industrialized, while the South was pretty much a cotton producing entity. Of course there's much more to it than my simple idea here, but after the war the Republicans, and the North for that matter, wanted very little to do with a black person.

There really was no great life awarded to the black race after the war was over sadly. If they were lucky, and I say this loosely, they became share croppers with very little rights and few rewards if any.... hence stories of slaves returning to the plantation wanting their ex-slave masters to take them back.

Not a very pretty period in American History to say the least.

Sad, but very true..............

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States and several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. ...

ok. i get that about Cali. since no fighting was done there during the war, I just didn't think that it had gotten it's statehood by that point. And the term "yankee" was used for Union soldiers, so I still don't think Californians are yankees per se. It wasn't until the World Wars, when the Europeans (who supplied the South and probably picked up the derogatory term) used that word to describe the American solders.

Coming from a state littered with battlegrounds from the Civil War (I remember a field trip in elementary school to one of the larger battlegrounds in the area, Kings Mountain, SC), I don't view the flag as a hate symbol, as much as the symbol that my ancestors fought (and some died) under fending off the invading armies of the North, who brought death and destruction to not only the slave owners but also to the civilians of the South.

so you left out the name any Southern Reb will tell you that the Civil War was called -"the War of Northern Aggression"

ok. i get that about Cali. since no fighting was done there during the war, I just didn't think that it had gotten it's statehood by that point. And the term "yankee" was used for Union soldiers, so I still don't think Californians are yankees per se. It wasn't until the World Wars, when the Europeans (who supplied the South and probably picked up the derogatory term) used that word to describe the American solders.

Coming from a state littered with battlegrounds from the Civil War (I remember a field trip in elementary school to one of the larger battlegrounds in the area, Kings Mountain, SC), I don't view the flag as a hate symbol, as much as the symbol that my ancestors fought (and some died) under fending off the invading armies of the North, who brought death and destruction to not only the slave owners but also to the civilians of the South.

so you left out the name any Southern Reb will tell you that the Civil War was called -"the War of Northern Aggression"

I'm just as much a yankee as you are, sorry you fail to realize this, but no matter it's all good.......one things for sure ,even tho I have family roots in the deep-south, (on my fathers side) I'm no southern'er by any means not that it's a bad thing, I love the south, (it's southern hospitality) when I visited there a few yrs back, I was treated a lot better, than I was when I visited Ohio, and the East Coast, I know that sounds kinda strange, but it's true.........

« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 12:27:12 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

i've enjoyed our "sparring" on the topic, since things haven't gotten too heated. Hey! for all the stuff I've posted, it's not like any of it really means that much anyway. We're talking about history from nearly 150 years ago. I never even met my great-great grandparents who would have been alive back then (on a totally different subject, that's why I'm not for "reparations" to anyone from the Civil War. Who would be alive to give the $$ too. All those slaves and owners are long, long gone.)

there have been two comments here that have made me think or be annoyed.

first the comment about the comparison of the nazi and confederate flags. the comparison is a little thin (one was the symbol of an invading army into other soverign nations while the other was the symbol of a separatist movement trying to form their own nation) but it did give me pause to think about the symbolism all these years laters.

definitely a condescending comment but was that mocking the black dialect or just the Southern dialect? It's hard for me to tell as none of my Southern friends or family (black or white) speaks like that. That's one thing I'll give the Yankees credit for, even today people will mock Southerners as ignorant because of our accent.

Y'all have a great day now!

mikie(who is constantly reminded of his Southern heritage here among the Northerners whenever he says "y'all" and gets the heads to turn)

i've enjoyed our "sparring" on the topic, since things haven't gotten too heated. Hey! for all the stuff I've posted, it's not like any of it really means that much anyway. We're talking about history from nearly 150 years ago. I never even met my great-great grandparents who would have been alive back then (on a totally different subject, that's why I'm not for "reparations" to anyone from the Civil War. Who would be alive to give the $$ too. All those slaves and owners are long, long gone.)

there have been two comments here that have made me think or be annoyed.

first the comment about the comparison of the nazi and confederate flags. the comparison is a little thin (one was the symbol of an invading army into other soverign nations while the other was the symbol of a separatist movement trying to form their own nation) but it did give me pause to think about the symbolism all these years laters.

this comment though annoyed medefinitely a condescending comment but was that mocking the black dialect or just the Southern dialect? It's hard for me to tell as none of my Southern friends or family (black or white) speaks like that. That's one thing I'll give the Yankees credit for, even today people will mock Southerners as ignorant because of our accent.

Y'all have a great day now!

mikie(who is constantly reminded of his Southern heritage here among the Northerners whenever he says "y'all" and gets the heads to turn)

Yes Thanks for your quick witted humor, it made my day and as for Peter's Reply.........you'll have to ask him about that one, I can't much help you there............ but you might want to go back and read skeebo1969 reply # 28 for a better understanding, of what happened to him 20 some odd yrs. ago..........

« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 01:15:33 PM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

You know, as I've read through this thread, my mind has gone to a number of different places. Having lived the first 36 yrs of my life in New England, I certainly have a "Yankee" spin on life, but I've lived the last 8+ yrs in Richmond, VA. My time in the South (some would argue about Richmond being in the "south", but I let that one alone) has opened my eyes to many things. First, I thought race would be a much "bigger thing" done here, but I've not found that to be so -- although the media does try to hype almost anything with a race angle. My partner and I are the only white (and only gay) household in my neighborhood -- no problems at all (a plus, NO calls from the McCain camp, but daily calls from Barack or Michelle Obama).I have been amazed by the abundance of "Stars and Bars" flying down here. I certainly can see how some folks are looking at it from a strictly "heritage" view, but I know others do for more provocative reasons. The fact remains that just about any "symbol" is going to cause angst for some folks. I don't think it is wrong to compare the Confederate flag with the Nazi swastika. The "separatist movement trying to form their own nation" wanted to do it, at least in part, to keep a race in chains. While I'll agree that is quite equivalent to the "final solution" it is in the same neighborhood.However (I know I'm rambling) what has most struck me from this thread is how no one has mentioned the fact that our nation's greatest symbol -- the US flag -- may, in fact, cause angst in at least one group. Remember, as we were trying to build and grow our own nation, we systematically uprooted and/or killed a huge number of Native Americans to do so. So, you see -- any symbol may be looked at through different eyes for any number of reasons. Just some food for thought.

Lest anyone think I'm being unpatriotic -- I'll simply state that I have put my life on the line for this country and would do so again, if needed (although a gay HIV+ man would probably come pretty low on the list of recruits).