OnStar gives Volt owners what they want: their data, in the cloud

GM rushed work on a new API to get a popular Volt owner site back on road.

The Web services supporting OnStar's applications for the Chevy Volt were hacked by developer Mike Rosack to create Volt Stats. a site for owners to brag about their milage. Now, OnStar has given him a new, approved API.

You probably don't think of your car as a developer platform, but Mike Rosack did. A few days after buying his Chevy Volt, Rosack started slowly mining his driving data. But he eventually revved up his efforts and created a community platform for drivers to track their own efficiency. Today more than 1,800 Volt owners compare stats with each other, jockeying for position on Rosack's Volt Stats leader board.

The Volt is, in many ways, a natural fit for hacker car enthusiasts. GM already heavily "gamifies" the Volt with its Driver Information Center, a dashboard display providing immediate visual feedback on how efficiently the car is being driven. The car is also heavily instrumented for OnStar, which gives drivers access to performance information and other data through its RemoteLink mobile app for iOS and Android.

Rosack initially wanted to do more with his own driving data than just view it on his phone. So he built what eventually became Volt Stats to capture this data, then started sharing it with other Volt owners. There was just one small problem: Volt Stats relied on Rosack's reverse engineering of an interface for OnStar's RemoteLink mobile application (iOS and Android). When OnStar moved to shut down the Web services interface Rosack had plugged into in mid-October, Volt Stats arrived at a screeching halt.

Rather than leaving Volt Stats stalled on the roadside, GM and OnStar accelerated efforts to give developers a new public Web API to create services on top of OnStar data. The companies even worked with Rosack to get him onboard and get Volt Stats re-launched. Now, Volt Stats is back online and other would-be car data hackers will soon be able to connect their Web applications to GM owners' vehicle data (provided, of course, that they have privacy policies that meet with the approval of GM and OnStar lawyers).

OnStar had already developed an API for GM partners such as the car-sharing service RelayRides, who need to get access to some of the remote control and telematics elements of the service. But this new interface takes advantage of technologies such as OAuth and JAX-RS and it's a step toward turning OnStar into a broader platform for the "Internet of things." It's also a way to give car enthusiasts a new kind of access to something they've always thought of as their own—their cars' data.

The "Kleenex of telematics"

GM's OnStar has been around for 16 years, and it's established itself as an industry leader. "It's been the Kleenex of telematics for a long time," said OnStar Director of Advanced Technology Steve Schwinke. OnStar originally developed as a service for luxury cars that integrated safety with an on-demand driver concierge service. "It started with the basic promise that if the airbag deploys, we're going to provide you help," Schwinke said. "It's also the original 'app' in the vehicle, where you hit that OnStar blue button to get our call center."

Today, OnStar gets 150,000 calls a day from customers using that blue button. But Schwinke said there's nearly as much communication coming directly from vehicles on a daily basis: 130,000 times a day. That's how often OnStar hardware in GM cars "phones home" over a cellular packet data connection to OnStar's data centers to be interrogated for diagnostic and maintenance data.

OnStar has been on the bleeding edge of machine-to-machine communications since its launch. When someone pushes the blue button, Schwinke said, "we want to get information on why they're calling, then talk to them, then get more data. It requires the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name. It's not for the faint of heart."

While 95 percent of its coverage is provided by Verizon Wireless in the US, the last five percent is made up of 29 different carriers with a wide range of network technologies. OnStar's proprietary Air Interface (AIX) Protocol is based on a Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) 1x connection. AIX is designed to work anywhere there's cellular service, at essentially 2G-speed, with a 56 kilobit-per-second transfer rate.

To help reduce the chattiness of the protocol, OnStar uses the User Datagram Protocol for some of its data (which doesn't require an acknowledgement for each block of data sent). And to reduce the number of transmissions, the OnStar onboard computer can cache up to 100 kilobytes worth of diagnostic codes before dumping data back to the mother ship, or it can send alerts immediately when a severe problem is detected.

"We can send data at every ignition cycle, or periodically based on time or the odometer miles, or when something bad happens in the vehicle," Schwinke said. For a severe condition code (such as an air-bag trigger), the OnStar module automatically calls OnStar's call center.

Even within those small, cheap bursts of data, OnStar can collect a lot. "What people don't seem to know is that we have this deep integration with all the electronic components in the vehicle," Schwinke said. "We have access not only to trouble codes, but things like parameter IDs that give battery voltage, the outside air temperature—anything that (vehicle sensors) would record, the OnStar module can request all that data. We can even tell you if you left the gas cap open."

But it's just as valuable to OnStar and its customers as it is to GM, if not more so. Diagnostic data dumped from cars gets processed and put into GM's quality management database, which gives the auto maker an early heads-up on parts that fail too frequently. The instrumentation can identify problems in subsystems down to the part level, a feature used by GM during pre-production to track quality issues with parts before they start rolling en masse off assembly lines.

Thinking outside the car

Over the past few years, Schwinke said GM and OnStar have started "extending services to outside of the vehicle." This allows customers to interact with and control the vehicle even when they're not in it. That idea was given a jolt with the Volt, which demanded a higher level of information for owners when they weren't driving.

OnStar developed phone apps for the Volt's release that allowed owners to check on the charging status of their cars, control when they charge (to take advantage of off-peak utility rates), and get notifications pushed to them when charging was complete. First demonstrated at the 2010 International CES electronics show, the application also allowed drivers to lock or unlock the car, turn on heat or air conditioning, flash lights, and honk the horn remotely from their phone. On top of all that, it gave drivers access to a range of data about their car's performance.

The promotional video for the Volt's OnStar smartphone application at its release in 2010.

The work OnStar did to create software interfaces for the Volt—which became known as OnStar's Advanced Telematics Operating Management System (ATOMS)—was quickly expanded to incorporate GM's other OnStar-equipped vehicles. "We saw that opportunity," Schwinke said, "and saw we needed to extend that to the rest of our customers. Pretty much every GM vehicle since 2011 can be controlled by a remote app."

An illustration of the OnStar ATOMS environment and cloud API.

General Motors / OnStar

The ATOMS platform also gave OnStar the opportunity to get into the business of providing APIs to partners, creating a whole new line of business. Last January, OnStar announced the availability of its third-party API and its first partnership with RelayRides. In July, GM and OnStar announced OnStar's six million customers could participate in RelayRides without having to install additional hardware in their vehicles or hang around to exchange keys. The RelayRides phone app hooks into OnStar's remote control system, and remotely unlocks and starts the car for the renter.

Built with integration software from Apigee, OnStar's cloud APIs provide a REST-based gateway Web service for service providers to connect to ATOMS, rather than connecting directly to vehicle. "We do all of the security credentials through our back office systems," Schwinke said. "Communication to the vehicle isn't broadly exposed."

Schwinke said OnStar was already working with a number of other partners to leverage ATOMS' cloud interface—among them electric companies who were looking to extend their "smart grid" services to Volt vehicles. "We've been doing some demonstrations and prototyping with public utility companies for smart grid command and response," he said. "The utility companies can send instructions to the car to control when it charges and when it doesn’t. It can save the car owner money, and flatten electrical demand curves."

From tire-kicking to app hacking

While GM and OnStar were planning a broader rollout of access to the ATOMS APIs, customers had limited access to a controlled set of partners until recently. But that didn't stop Rosack from wanting access to his OnStar data and wanting more than just a look at it on his phone.

"Right after I got my Volt," Rosack said, "I started playing around with (the phone) app... I figured it'd be cool if I could find a way to store that data in a database, so I reverse engineered the service calls that the app makes and created Volt Stats."

Soon, he took the next logical step and launched Volt Stats as a website. Using the reverse-engineered Web service call, he allowed other Volt owners to gain access to their own data and share it on the site. It did more than track a vehicle's electrical and gas mileage—it allowed owners to share their location to show geographic differences in mileage performance and track driver "achievements" for the best performing cars. Cars here were ranked by energy efficiency history.

The site gained a good deal of notice within the Volt owner community and the automotive press. By September of 2012, there were more than 1,800 active registered users sharing their Volt data. But as OnStar continued to develop its API, it discovered a problem with how Volt Stats was connecting to the ATOMS cloud. Among the concerns was owner privacy, since the site used owners' OnStar usernames and passwords directly to access the data. It was also pulling location data.

On October 13, Rosack informed the Volt Stats community that GM was cutting him off. " GM has informed me that they'll be shutting down the interface I'm using to collect data for Volt Stats effective immediately," he wrote on Facebook.

Rather than leaving it at that, GM accelerated efforts to build a new public API. "They've promised to work with me to get an alternate API available," Rosack told his users, "so hopefully data collection won't be down that long. I'll keep you all updated as I hear more."

That new API uses JAX-RS (the Java API for RESTful Web services) and OAuth, the protocol for API access delegation used by Twitter and other social media and Web services providers. Doug Mutart, OnStar's Chief Architect, immediately put out a call for API developers to help build the public UI, and a group of contractors came on to rapidly scale up OnStar's API efforts. Meanwhile, Rosack needed to draft a privacy policy that would pass inspection with GM's legal department. A little more than a month later—November 20—Volt Stats was back up and running, though users had to re-register through the new API.

Where we're going, we don't need roads

With the new public API now up and running, OnStar has its sights on other applications for its infrastructure. Schwinke said OnStar is reexamining how vehicles communicate with the data center, and the company is looking at additional services that can be delivered in the vehicle.

"I've got a lot of cool stuff going on," he said. "We've built a 4G car, and did a cloud within the car." (OnStar also held a "hackathon" this summer to come up with new ideas for applications that can be built on the service.)

But Schwinke hinted OnStar's sights may be set beyond cars, and that the ATOMS platform could be applied to other machine-to-machine communication applications. While he wouldn't give details, Schwinke said OnStar's experience in this space places the company in a position to be a big player in the broader, emerging market for smart machines.

48 Reader Comments

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

Not to mention that it can lock and unlock the car remotely. Creepy doesn't even starts to describe it.

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

It's possible with most companies that keep customer records like that by (automatically) looking up your caller ID and displaying the record filed under that phone number. Most places don't do it for privacy reasons.

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

Oh yes, how terribly creepy that a company you've just bought a $40,000 product from knows your name!

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

Oh yes, how terribly creepy that a company you've just bought a $40,000 product from knows your name!

Or the fact that you have to register with OnStar for it to work, So I would assume you have to give them a bunch of information for that, including your name.....

I'm not a GM owner, but kudos to them for recognizing the type of customer this car attracts and not cutting off Volt Stats. I can imagine other companies would send a cease-and-desist and that would be the end of it.

This is actually a success story of GM's IT insourcing efforts. And I'm in this boat as well.

You have two companies that are diametrically opposed. One side, the consulting firms, wants to bill as many hours as possible for as little work as possible. The other firm, GM (or any other firm), wants to pay as little money as possible to get the most amount of work done.

I've never seen outsourcing done well, and it's a testament to having engineers inhouse to be able to rapidly deploy things like this, and be attune to the needs of the customer from the marketing folks all the way back into the engineering teams.

Kudos to GM, and let it be a lesson learned for all the companies who jump to outsourcing.

This is actually a success story of GM's IT insourcing efforts. And I'm in this boat as well.

You have two companies that are diametrically opposed. One side, the consulting firms, wants to bill as many hours as possible for as little work as possible. The other firm, GM (or any other firm), wants to pay as little money as possible to get the most amount of work done.

I've never seen outsourcing done well, and it's a testament to having engineers inhouse to be able to rapidly deploy things like this, and be attune to the needs of the customer from the marketing folks all the way back into the engineering teams.

Kudos to GM, and let it be a lesson learned for all the companies who jump to outsourcing.

That doesn't mean insourcing everything is the best way to do things though. Engineering is always better insourced, but when it comes to things like outsourcing its best to choose markets based on cost or quality.

I feel this is one of the scuess stories of a company realizing that what people wanted was not bad.. its not what they expected.They had to cut off things only because of privacy issues but worked QUICKLY to get the things people wanted back where they could get it and make its all safe.

IMHO #1 company effort and I wish all involved to keep a eye open to new things and the adaptability to take in things that others come up with.

I've been using Voltstats since I bought my Volt back in March. I had heard about the On-Star API before, but when they shut Voltstats down, I was worried it would take GM forever to release a public API. I was happy when it came back up earlier this month - color me surprised GM could get the public API done so quickly, and not only that they used OAuth and REST, which are industry standards. Recently GM announced that they're going to bring all their IT back in-house instead of out-sourced to consultants. I think they might finally understand how important all this technology stuff is, and how it can give them a competitive advantage.

This is actually a success story of GM's IT insourcing efforts. And I'm in this boat as well.

You have two companies that are diametrically opposed. One side, the consulting firms, wants to bill as many hours as possible for as little work as possible. The other firm, GM (or any other firm), wants to pay as little money as possible to get the most amount of work done.

I've never seen outsourcing done well, and it's a testament to having engineers inhouse to be able to rapidly deploy things like this, and be attune to the needs of the customer from the marketing folks all the way back into the engineering teams.

Kudos to GM, and let it be a lesson learned for all the companies who jump to outsourcing.

That doesn't mean insourcing everything is the best way to do things though. Engineering is always better insourced, but when it comes to things like outsourcing its best to choose markets based on cost or quality.

The best way to look at it is like manufacturers look at their integrated supply chains. Whether a function is performed in-house or upstream isn't as important as that there is a close business relationship and good communications. While in theory suppliers always want the most for the least in truth what they most need is good stable business that they can rely on. Building good relations with your downstream is job security for them.

What a great concept but hackable also means "potentially" crackable. It isn't a large leap for the nefarious virus developer to go from PC, to mobile technology, to imbedded systems, to hybrid systems such as the Volt. It goes without saying that increased system interoperability presents opportunities to be harnessed and threats to be mitigated.

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

Facepalm... Are you for real? All utilities, banks and other companies I have an account with know my name once I call them from my phone. How is that creepy?

Every 6 months, I read about some new car system that has weak security and can be hacked. On-Star hasn't been on that list ... yet, but the two scariest words I see related to any data, network or computer security are proprietary protocol.

Even if the data on the vehicle is not hacked, knowing that all that data is stored in the cloud is just ... scary. What are the _opt out_ procedures? Actaully, don't bother - I'll just purchase a non-privacy-sucking vehicle from someone else.

What a great concept but hackable also means "potentially" crackable. It isn't a large leap for the nefarious virus developer to go from PC, to mobile technology, to imbedded systems, to hybrid systems such as the Volt. It goes without saying that increased system interoperability presents opportunities to be harnessed and threats to be mitigated.

I'm encouraged that GM moved quickly to modify the service when they identified security concerns as the OnStar module is a known attack vector. There are plenty of other vulnerabilities in modern vehicles, but OnStar is perhaps unique because it allows remote communication with your vehicle, even while in motion. Attackers don't need to pair a bluetooth device or access your car's diagnostic port.

Perhaps there is a need for third-party security auditing of these services. Like everything else, they can be very useful when Implemented correctly & securely, but a shoddy job can result in massive damage... perhaps even deaths since we're dealing with live cars!

I wonder, how soon, will the dashboard become as powerful as a smart phone. And what that implies insofar as the laws involving the "distraction" of a driver's interaction with machinery while driving are concerned. Will "smart phones while driving" laws become rather meaningless?

Every 6 months, I read about some new car system that has weak security and can be hacked. On-Star hasn't been on that list ... yet, but the two scariest words I see related to any data, network or computer security are proprietary protocol.

Even if the data on the vehicle is not hacked, knowing that all that data is stored in the cloud is just ... scary. What are the _opt out_ procedures? Actaully, don't bother - I'll just purchase a non-privacy-sucking vehicle from someone else.

You can opt out by cancelling or not purchasing an OnStar subscription in the first place.

I own a Volt and love it. Mine is charged from my solar system. It's pretty cool, actually. I don't belong to Voltstats for a number of reasons, the main one being people gaming the numbers. For example, some owners, if faced with a long trip that would cause the Volt to have to burn gasoline, take their SUV or truck instead to keep the Volt numbers looking unrealistic. It's not a game I find worth playing, there's really no benefit to me in return.

I'm glad GM is insourcing, as their websites look like they were done by a retarded nephew of some marketing "whizz" - you know, the thing you do in the bathroom. I've never seen more poorly written web code. Great marketing pictures and art, but the design of all their sites - even the ones in support of Volt *owners* - is to sell you a car. Thanks, got one already, now I want to use the one I have, and no, I don't need to see ads for another. Or buttons that don't grey while you wait, endless reloads of the same stuff ... someone used a total drag-drop tool without understanding how to do things right.

Meanwhile, the car itself is stunningly good, even runs linux, and yes, the mods GM made to linux are published under GPL-V2.

As with all onstar equpped autos, you can, there are a couple of fuses you can pull if you decide to turn it off at your end, rock solid, should you need to use the car to say, rob a bank and not want it tracked. Doh.

As for the taxpayers bought me a car, no, they didn't - that was one fat check I wrote. Sure, all the car companies got subsidies of various kinds for things like this, but only GM has really delivered, with Ford lagging a bit - but no one else has really done diddly that is comparable.

So, why should I not buy a car I've (as a taxpayer) already paid for part of anyway? That's just stupid.Where's my Chrysler electric? And so forth. We paid anyway, why not get the benefit? And make no mistake, this is one cool car - people trade in some pretty upscale things to get them (beemers, caddies, camaros) - and love them.

After all, taxpayers and warfighters pay for your gas, sometimes with their lives. Jerk.

I'm with DCFusor. The numbers look faked. The guy in #1 has 16,680mpg with 6746 miles on the car. Even if you're one of those douche-bags that let gravity pull your car across a parking lot while 50 people behind you want you to burn in a fire of herpes, you still can't get 16k mpg.

I'm with DCFusor. The numbers look faked. The guy in #1 has 16,680mpg with 6746 miles on the car. Even if you're one of those douche-bags that let gravity pull your car across a parking lot while 50 people behind you want you to burn in a fire of herpes, you still can't get 16k mpg.

Sure you can. You can drive a Volt without using gas for the most part, but it occasionally fires up the engine for maintainence reasons. It has nothing to do with trying to hypermile and everything to do with keeping the car charged and driving only in electric mode.

Having driven a Volt for a bit as part of an ambassador program, I can tell you that it's no slouch when you step on the "gas".

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

Not to mention that it can lock and unlock the car remotely. Creepy doesn't even starts to describe it.

Even heard they can shut down your car remotely if you are running from the authorities....

[OnStar has] the ability to decode data from the vehicle when the request is pressed, all the data you've collected on a vehicle, get their location, and then present that [to a call center employee] who can greet the customer by name.

So how does this bit of creepiness work? Do GM buyers provide their information to OnStar? Is giving such information a pre-requisite for using the service?

Oh yes, how terribly creepy that a company you've just bought a $40,000 product from knows your name!

40 grand and they better know my face as well and greet my ass with some coffee. I wish my pos car had kick ass stats like this.

My version of onstar requires a crowbar for protection and swallowing my pride to ask for directions and math if I want to keep my stats.

As for the taxpayers bought me a car, no, they didn't - that was one fat check I wrote. Sure, all the car companies got subsidies of various kinds for things like this, but only GM has really delivered, with Ford lagging a bit - but no one else has really done diddly that is comparable.

So, why should I not buy a car I've (as a taxpayer) already paid for part of anyway? That's just stupid.Where's my Chrysler electric? And so forth. We paid anyway, why not get the benefit? And make no mistake, this is one cool car - people trade in some pretty upscale things to get them (beemers, caddies, camaros) - and love them.

After all, taxpayers and warfighters pay for your gas, sometimes with their lives. Jerk.

Forceably removing money from the majority to give to unions as payback for delivering votes and calling it good government is like robbing Peter to pay Paul...you can ALWAYS count on the support of Paul. The whole green energy push the gubment is on has been an utter disaster. Look at Solyndra and the Volt program to name two. Several BILLION dollars wasted with mediocre (at best) results, cars self igniting on the freeway, carbon footprint horrible, and then there's the waste and fraud ($535 million or so for Solyndra and even more for the other one). Having the gubment interfere with the free market has disasterous results as shown clearly in everything the gubment tries to do. And you want these people running your health care.... <sigh>

As for the taxpayers bought me a car, no, they didn't - that was one fat check I wrote. Sure, all the car companies got subsidies of various kinds for things like this, but only GM has really delivered, with Ford lagging a bit - but no one else has really done diddly that is comparable.

So, why should I not buy a car I've (as a taxpayer) already paid for part of anyway? That's just stupid.Where's my Chrysler electric? And so forth. We paid anyway, why not get the benefit? And make no mistake, this is one cool car - people trade in some pretty upscale things to get them (beemers, caddies, camaros) - and love them.

After all, taxpayers and warfighters pay for your gas, sometimes with their lives. Jerk.

Forceably removing money from the majority to give to unions as payback for delivering votes and calling it good government is like robbing Peter to pay Paul...you can ALWAYS count on the support of Paul. The whole green energy push the gubment is on has been an utter disaster. Look at Solyndra and the Volt program to name two. Several BILLION dollars wasted with mediocre (at best) results, cars self igniting on the freeway, carbon footprint horrible, and then there's the waste and fraud ($535 million or so for Solyndra and even more for the other one). Having the gubment interfere with the free market has disasterous results as shown clearly in everything the gubment tries to do. And you want these people running your health care.... <sigh>

Please, this sort of rhetoric is utter nonsense. You haven't even established actual facts. Go look at what has really been going on instead of sitting in front of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and then parroting it. The Obama Administration isn't doing any more funding of anything than previous administrations have done. When it comes to strategic (energy, defense, agriculture) related business the government has ALWAYS had a finger in the pie. I can give you a VERY long list of things that aren't disasters that the "gubment" (can you just get over that hick crap) has done.

Volt isn't a government program anyway. Nor is it a disaster, the jury is certainly out on how quickly hybrid/electric vehicles will be adopted and how soon they will come down the cost curve, but we actually DO need them, so sorry. How about oil and food, shall we stop subsidizing those too? Funny how the people on the right so quickly shut up when that comes up...

I'd also go read about the history of labor in the US before you bash unions. The only reason you're not living in poverty is likely because of them. The plutocrats are mightily amused and pleased that their propaganda has achieved making a bad name for unions with the very people that will be crushed into economic slavery once they cease to exist.

Forceably removing money from the majority to give to unions as payback for delivering votes and calling it good government is like robbing Peter to pay Paul...you can ALWAYS count on the support of Paul. The whole green energy push the gubment is on has been an utter disaster. Look at Solyndra and the Volt program to name two. Several BILLION dollars wasted with mediocre (at best) results, cars self igniting on the freeway, carbon footprint horrible, and then there's the waste and fraud ($535 million or so for Solyndra and even more for the other one). Having the gubment interfere with the free market has disasterous results as shown clearly in everything the gubment tries to do. And you want these people running your health care.... <sigh>

What do unions have to do with this? We've given subsidies for years to oil companies. Why shouldn't electric car and battery manufacturers be on the same footing? Remove it for one, remove it for all.

OK, the airbags have deployed and the system is so alerted that it calls Onstar for you. Is now the time to have privacy issues?

No, the time to have privacy issues is the second you purchase an OnStar enabled car, as it constantly transmits location and car status whether an accident has occurred or not. I am a huge data geek, and would love to have access to stats about my car but there is no way in hell I would buy one that transmits it to a third party who makes it available in a cloud service.

The Voltstats service is opt-in. So GM isn't transmitting any data outside their company without explicit user authorization. I trust Voltstats enough to let them collect this information about me.

Also, what is it about Volt articles that bring out the idiots on the right? All of the numbers have been debunked long ago. But they still cling on to fact-free gossip. And somewhat ironically, if you compare Obama's green stimulus funding success percentage to Bain Capital under Romney, Obama has the higher success ratio. Go figure.

Please, this sort of rhetoric is utter nonsense. You haven't even established actual facts. Go look at what has really been going on instead of sitting in front of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and then parroting it. The Obama Administration isn't doing any more funding of anything than previous administrations have done. When it comes to strategic (energy, defense, agriculture) related business the government has ALWAYS had a finger in the pie. I can give you a VERY long list of things that aren't disasters that the "gubment" (can you just get over that hick crap) has done.

Volt isn't a government program anyway. Nor is it a disaster, the jury is certainly out on how quickly hybrid/electric vehicles will be adopted and how soon they will come down the cost curve, but we actually DO need them, so sorry. How about oil and food, shall we stop subsidizing those too? Funny how the people on the right so quickly shut up when that comes up...

I'd also go read about the history of labor in the US before you bash unions. The only reason you're not living in poverty is likely because of them. The plutocrats are mightily amused and pleased that their propaganda has achieved making a bad name for unions with the very people that will be crushed into economic slavery once they cease to exist.

I don't listen to Rush and don't watch any broadcast news and it's presumptious of you to so infer. There are myriad articles on how this gubment push to 'green' is a disaster. Here's one I found interesting. I guess since it's not on huffingtonpost.com or on CBS news, you didn't see it.

And that's just ONE story out of thousands in the print and internet supporting my position. Taking money by taxation to prop up a market inefficiency is not the purpose of government. We're 16 TRILLION in debt and we don't need the government overspending their budgets on ANY industry, let alone one that is too immature to pay for itself in the free market. It costs about $80,000 to build a Volt, so they're taking money from those who make it to give it away. That's WRONG.

And Unions have been the major reason we've been exporting our manufacturing jobs overseas for over 100 years. They have gone WAY beyond reason in their demands. Did you bother to read about the Twinkies debacle? Unions forcing the manufacturer to drive separate trucks for different products to force them to hire more drivers? That's INSANE. But, I guess you've never really ran a business, have you? You just rely on someone to confiscate money from those who do to give it to those who don't. We are headed the way of Greece and all the other socialist economies. Very soon, China will call it's debt and we're SCREWED. Better wake up to what's going on, things you don't get from the biased media that worships big government.

I don't listen to Rush and don't watch any broadcast news and it's presumptious of you to so infer. There are myriad articles on how this gubment push to 'green' is a disaster. Here's one I found interesting. I guess since it's not on huffingtonpost.com or on CBS news, you didn't see it.

I wonder, what is the Yahoo! Contributor Network? Oh. It's basically a blog that lets anyone publish their opinion on Yahoo! like an editorial. I see.

You're going to have to find a more credible source for the claim that "green" is a "disaster" for the current administration, or that this particular administration is subsidizing various industries any more (or less) than previous ones.

The Voltstats service is opt-in. So GM isn't transmitting any data outside their company without explicit user authorization. I trust Voltstats enough to let them collect this information about me.

But the API is not opt-in (or opt-out). Thus all the data is being hosted in a cloud service by GM/OnStar with all the security concerns that entails, same as any other online service. The only meaningful opt-out is to disable OnStar altogether.

Please, this sort of rhetoric is utter nonsense. You haven't even established actual facts. Go look at what has really been going on instead of sitting in front of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and then parroting it. The Obama Administration isn't doing any more funding of anything than previous administrations have done. When it comes to strategic (energy, defense, agriculture) related business the government has ALWAYS had a finger in the pie. I can give you a VERY long list of things that aren't disasters that the "gubment" (can you just get over that hick crap) has done.

Volt isn't a government program anyway. Nor is it a disaster, the jury is certainly out on how quickly hybrid/electric vehicles will be adopted and how soon they will come down the cost curve, but we actually DO need them, so sorry. How about oil and food, shall we stop subsidizing those too? Funny how the people on the right so quickly shut up when that comes up...

I'd also go read about the history of labor in the US before you bash unions. The only reason you're not living in poverty is likely because of them. The plutocrats are mightily amused and pleased that their propaganda has achieved making a bad name for unions with the very people that will be crushed into economic slavery once they cease to exist.

I don't listen to Rush and don't watch any broadcast news and it's presumptious of you to so infer. There are myriad articles on how this gubment push to 'green' is a disaster. Here's one I found interesting. I guess since it's not on huffingtonpost.com or on CBS news, you didn't see it.

OK, there's not one fact or number anywhere in this. It is just some cheap shot that is nothing more or less than what I responded to in your last post. No analysis of cost/benefit or sunk costs and past investment vs new development. The FACT is we need a transportation revolution. Sorry you don't like that. It isn't going to happen on its own. Also, check the $80k Volt cost bullcrap...

And that's just ONE story out of thousands in the print and internet supporting my position. [/quote]Yeah, and if they all have that kind of quality it shows what a cesspit you have to wade through to get real data...

Quote:

Taking money by taxation to prop up a market inefficiency is not the purpose of government. We're 16 TRILLION in debt and we don't need the government overspending their budgets on ANY industry, let alone one that is too immature to pay for itself in the free market. It costs about $80,000 to build a Volt, so they're taking money from those who make it to give it away. That's WRONG.

Again, see above, what's wrong is the crap you think is information.

Quote:

And Unions have been the major reason we've been exporting our manufacturing jobs overseas for over 100 years. They have gone WAY beyond reason in their demands. Did you bother to read about the Twinkies debacle? Unions forcing the manufacturer to drive separate trucks for different products to force them to hire more drivers? That's INSANE. But, I guess you've never really ran a business, have you? You just rely on someone to confiscate money from those who do to give it to those who don't. We are headed the way of Greece and all the other socialist economies. Very soon, China will call it's debt and we're SCREWED. Better wake up to what's going on, things you don't get from the biased media that worships big government.

Oh horsecrap. You clearly have no idea what unions are, what they do, or how they work. Quit spouting some line that was fed to you. The US has been exporting jobs for 100 years, that's hilarious! In fact the US has quite a lot of jobs. The truth is that if we were paying OUR workers what the Chinese or Indians pay theirs our country would be a craphole too.

And yes, actually I DO run a business. I am SO happy that for some mysterious reason I don't have to frigging deal with supplying my workers with health care anymore either. How SOCIALIST!!!! Oh no! boogeyman word! You need to learn what these words MEAN and actually study what goes on instead of just slapping labels on things.

And IF, and I say IF because most of the 'facts' you have trotted out so far were far from reliable some union people are stupid enough to cripple the business they work for then they got exactly what they deserve, some nice market forces took them out. Unless of course it was basically all a big dodge and some more BS, but we'll see. Check around in a few months or a year or two and see who made out on that Hostess deal and we'll talk. I can almost guarantee you it will be some investment bank or other. Yeah, lets stop regulating them while we're at it too! (like we DO regulate them but really).

Glad to see this conversation is right on track. Privacy Nazis? Check. Right-wing nutjobs? Check. Move right along, nothing to see here...[Edit -- Wow is that ignore button satisfying]

Thanks to the *actual* Volt owners for the helpful comments.

On-Topic Question -- Can smart-grid operators conceivably pull power *out* of Volts to support the grid? Or is charging strictly a one-way operation on these?

Currently no. It would require some extra electronics for sure, though I suppose the charging station would handle some of it.

Seems to me mainly there would be a bunch of issues like a 'backfeed to the grid' command would have to be pretty darn secure. I'd expect there would have to be a number of features to allow the charging station to match and either follow or lead the phase on the line, disconnect if the line is off the grid, etc. Some of that will add to the price, but I suspect charging stations aren't going to be all that cheap anyway.

I have no problem with OnStar tracking my data, as I see it, it's a wealth of real-world info for them to make better battery maintenance systems in the future. VoltStats.net is just another cool way to visualize that data and I am glad GM is willing to work with them to give us that info.

FYI: My stats: http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1907 Unfortunately, I think the gap in stats while they worked out their OAuth stuff has cost me an achievement badge - (I know I drove about 2000 miles on my 2nd tank of gas, but it still only shows the 1411 I did on the 1st tank!) )

Sean Gallagher / Sean is Ars Technica's IT Editor. A former Navy officer, systems administrator, and network systems integrator with 20 years of IT journalism experience, he lives and works in Baltimore, Maryland.