Chuck Jones, fmr president of United Steelworkers 1999, in Indiana, is no snowflake nor fool-sufferer. He just told a crowd of reporters & fmr Carrier workers in Indy: “Donald Trump is a liar & an idiot” and “a con man pure & simple who sold us a bag of shit.” #CarrierLayoffspic.twitter.com/6kE140Hrqw

Someone realizes after the fact that the small handed orange fart cloud was lying to them? Really!? After hearing that piece of shit for the first time, using willful ignorance was the only reason to believe the shit sandwich he was serving them was what they ordered. Now, with the taste of shit still in their mouths, they wake up to the fact the talking anus was, is, and always will be a liar that will sell anyone/everyone out for a dollar. Just amazing people are that stupid.

Conservative women (and Susan Sarandon) hate women, and by extension, themselves. They are perfectly okay with der Doofus and all he does.

Will be watching to see if the half marathon I signed up to run on Sunday will still be held. We’ll be getting rain, then ice, the snow followed by bitter cold. They’ll only cancel if the trail is icy, so we will see!

Chuck Jones, fmr president of United Steelworkers 1999, in Indiana, is no snowflake nor fool-sufferer. He just told a crowd of reporters & fmr Carrier workers in Indy: “Donald Trump is a liar & an idiot” and “a con man pure & simple who sold us a bag of shit.”

@David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:
I’m willing to go with Trump — he did not collude — because “collude” has no normative meaning. He did, however, engage in a criminal conspiracy. And that is how we should talk about it.

Chuck Jones, fmr president of United Steelworkers 1999, in Indiana, is no snowflake nor fool-sufferer. He just told a crowd of reporters & fmr Carrier workers in Indy: “Donald Trump is a liar & an idiot” and “a con man pure & simple who sold us a bag of shit.” #CarrierLayoffs pic.twitter.com/6kE140Hrqw

I saw on the Twitterz that one of the reasons those workers were “fooled” by HiroCheeto was b/c they didn’t believe “Hillary and Obama’s warnings” that the job market couldn’t be regulated into prosperity. Turns out ignoring the black guy and the woman didn’t work out for them.

As far as being angry and feeling duped, some questions are in order:
– Are they (still) registered to vote?
– Will their votes going forward reflect their dismay with *45 AND HIS PARTY screwing them over?

If the answer to either question is no, screw them – their “anger” and “dismay” mean about as much as a Susan Collins hand-wringing session. No more time for that crap.

Ugh. That Carrier event. Everyone was lying. Everyone. Trump, Pence, the Carrier execs. It was a real preview of things to come from the Trump Administration.

Trump was praised for his political acumen, too. I think it was a lesson for him in how much lying he could get away with. A LOT. They knew they could tell people just about anything after that shit show.

It’s actually worse now. Now they would deny they know Carrier exists. “Carrier? Never heard of it”. At some point he realized he doesn’t even have to stage the elaborate lies, which is a lot of work.

If you go back and look at the coverage back when the supposedly Trump-brokered deal to preserve Carrier jobs, Chuck Jones knew and said at the time that Trump’s assurances were a crock of shit and that neither he nor Carrier management could be trusted. Particularly when a lot of people were going to lose their jobs in spite of the deal..for which statements he got a couple of twitter bombs from Trump and some death threats locally, which he shrugged off. He for one did not welcome the advent of our Trumpian overlords.

Yep, that was Jones. Got a lot of generally favorable local coverage at the time, since he was and is a long time union guy who knew very well that Trump and his ilk were and are untrustworthy lying pricks.

The “bonuses” on the tax rip off are a scam too. Bonuses for lower wage people are a scam in general and one heavily promoted the last 20 years. Everyone who negotiates anything knows that you can offer a much lower sum of money up front and in one payment than with smaller payments over time (like a wage increase) because people only look at the up-front number, they don’t look at value over time. So you say “here’s 1000 dollars right now instead of 40 dollars a week over for the next ten years” and people will take the 1000. It’s how one negotiates with stupid people and gets a discount.

@danielx: Most of the union guys I know (ironworkers) have been solid Den voters and haven’t been fooled by Republicans since the days of Ronnie Raygun. They may not be the most socially liberal guys, though they’ve improved as the years have gone on, but they aren’t bamboozled by the Republican liars. There just aren’t enough workers represented by unions any more; the GOP managed to convince a lot of people that the unions just take their money and don’t really help them. Corrupt union bosses helped. I hope the tide starts turning on that too, stronger unions are good for working people.

From what I understand from a couple of people who have owned them, they are generally pretty solid if they’ve been properly maintained. The straight six engine in particular will probably last longer than you, again if the oil has been changed regularly etc etc. There are still a lot of them running around. Is there any reason in particular why you like the 2000-2001 editions? I ask because the last production year was 2006 and the longer a given vehicle is built without major changes, the more time they have to work out the bugs (why you still see so many Ford Crown Vics around) – more reliable.

“Donald Trump is a liar & an idiot” and “a con man pure & simple who sold us a bag of shit.”

Meh. I’ll believe this is really making a difference when we start seeing his base support ebb. These WWC guys weren’t in it for job security — they wanted hippy punching and building the wall. If anything, they’re pissed the wall still isn’t being built.

@Patricia Kayden: No, they are obligated to go and present as Death at the Feast–otherwise the country forgets that it has any kind of democratic representation at all. I also think they should all wear a little button with the number of people they represents–Schumer’s millions of constituents vs. almost every Republican from a small state.

@ThresherK: I know nothing about cars. For me, it’s about the relationship with the mechanic. I trust that the old high-mileage clunkers he refurbished to sell us are in good working order, and that he’ll be there to nurse them back to health when not.

Glad the Democratic women are not only doing this, but announced it in advance, so that Twitler can stew about it until the speech. My guess, though, is that his response will be to invite Juanita Broderrick, et al to the speech.

@jonas: Trump’s base may stick by him but the vast majority of Americans can’t stand him. Hence, his low approval ratings in the 30s. Doesn’t matter if his base supports him no mater what. His base isn’t in the majority.

It’s true. Although I have heard about union guys bitching about Dems in general because, guns (of course). Lot of union guys are gun owners, hunters, etc., a higher proportion than in the general population. Used to date a woman years ago who was in the UAW and it drove her crazy hearing co-workers going on about how Dems didn’t do anything for them, were going to take away their guns, blah blah. She said they didn’t seem to grasp that if it weren’t for Democrats there wouldn’t be a union and they’d be getting paid twelve bucks an hour instead of the twenty-odd they were getting. Same old song and dance: blue collar folk voting for the likes of Mike Pence, to name one local example, in spite of the fact that Pence and his party despise unions and those who belong to them – organizers in particular.

@aimai: If they don’t attend the SOTU (which will be packed with Trump boasting of his “accomplishments” and lying his face off), they can explain loudly and clearly to the American people that this is not a normal President and thus, they will not treat him as if he were normal. Trump would be more shaken by Democrats not showing up than by a few showing up in black dresses.

If they must show up, they should stand up and shout “You lie” every time he tells a whopper (which should be quite often since he’s incapable of speaking the truth). Sitting politely while listening to his blabberings shouldn’t be an option for Democrats.

@Kay: some people might be fooled, and some might assume they or the job won’t be there longer than the five month break even on your example. That hasn’t been that stupid an assumption for a lot of places until recently. In an incredibly innumerate society like ours, getting it up front feels safer to people.

Don’t recall if they offered full time all wheel drive back then, most of the Cherokees I’ve seen were old school 4WD with transfer case, two sticks on the floor, etc. DON’T get the 4 cylinder engine offered, vehicle with that motor couldn’t get out of its own way.

@BillinGlendaleCA: Never heard of it, and just looked at the website. I love how they proudly proclaim “Designed by Canadians”. These days, I read that as, “NOT designed by the kind of idiots who would elect someone like Trump as the leader of their nation.”

I think the “bonus” idea came from the finance and lending industry. It’s okay for high wage people because it’s actually “a bonus” over their salary but for lower wage people it’s used a replacement for wage increases, which is a rip off.

Lower and middle wage people need to stop believing they are the SAME as higher wage people. It’s not true. They have completely different needs and they need a completely different strategy. Our whole financial understanding is geared to CEO’s and managers. We need to think about this differently- it should be predicated on MOST people, not a few at the top.

@Patricia Kayden: If you want theater try to grasp that what makes for good theater isn’t always the loudest protest–and it certainly isn’t one that relies on the good will of the press to amplify it. I would absolutely be behind an effort to de-legiimize the SOTU while also educating voters and bringing people to registration. But if the Dems don’t show up to this SOTU no republican will ever show up to President Gillibrand’s SOTU and that would be a pity. Some norms should not be broken.

@Baud: In today’s GOP, he is a rising star. He’s got a jaw of stone and the spine of a squid, he’s got the trophy wife on his arm (who he cheats on, we now know) and the 2.3 kids, ZERO political experience, a completely empty vessel into whom money is poured and out comes free market/social conservative dogma.

Also, he’s got a super pac slush fund filled by secret donors that is the envy of every Republican.

First, the Republican party cultivates racists, not really the WWC, though a lot of people who are vote that way because they are racist. And the people who voted for Traitor in Chief cut across all classes, just like racism and misogyny do. And lastly, yes, some did vote for what they were being promised. That they believed those promises is unfortunate, but with 30+ years of propaganda being spewed at them, they did. The media has a vested interest in continuing to lay this mess at the feet of the WWC, when it helps deflect who really put major bucks into getting the Rs elected and the payback that those investors are getting.

I would like to see farmers get hurt by their political decisions for once. They’ve been living in fantasyland for 50 years. They must godammned KNOW who they sell grain too! They must know food stamps are essentially a federal voucher for agricultural products. Grow up. Face reality. It isn’t 1820.

@MJS: Told a friend that I was joining the Instant Pot cult(they really are a devoted group of folk) and he told me that was a stupid idea. I said “what’s wrong with cooking rice in 5 minutes?”. His reply, “Oh that Instant Pot, one of my co-workers loves her’s”. He was thinking of the recent change in our drug laws.

no republican will ever show up to President Gillibrand’s SOTU and that would be a pity. Some norms should not be broken.

So what if Republicans boycott future SOTUs? Why would that be a pity? And how many norms has Trump already broken? A few women dressing in black is a weak protest. Not showing up would be a stronger message that this is not a legitimate President and there is no need to treat him as such.

@ThresherK: There is a guy at jalopnik.com named David Tracy who has a serious (some might say unnatural) affinity for late model Cherokees. He posts a lot about his travails keeping them on the road, you could probably mine his posts for good insights on what to look for in a used one. Sorry for the homework assignment, if it were C3 Vettes you’re looking for I could give you a bit more help.

@Kay: no, that’s not what it’s based on for working people, though I agree that it migrated down from higher salaries workers. Read what I said again, they aren’t necessarily “stupid” for taking a bonus over a smaller, longer payout when they work in industries rife with layoffs or at the whim of employers in employment at will states (with no exceptions, since all states are essentially at will).

Labor unions in Ohio very much help Democrats because while it is true that something like 45% of union members vote for Republicans, the activists in labor unions are very committed and that bleeds over and benefits Democrats. You could support them for that alone. One committed labor Democrat is worth a lot, because they’re well informed and active. They show up. They also force Democrats to talk about and plug into these issues- wages, overtime, workplace safety, health insurance. They bring those to the fore.

Here, skilled trades are more active and more liberal than the UAW membership, for example, so there’s real divisions even within the ranks. It’s complicated. They have their own thing.

At this point every time I hear the phrase “family values” I start wondering which fetish the person being referenced – subscribes to? Prefers? Is into? Although I have to admit the light bondage is pretty vanilla by comparison with wetsuits and dildos.

Okay. I don’t think they’re “taking” it “over” a wage increase anyway because they never ask for wage increases unless they’re unionized. They’re taking it because it’s the only thing offered. I would just like to think about what is a better alternative that they COULD ask for and maybe get, but they’ll have to organize to get it.

Chris Hayes had an interesting thing going on Twitter the other day where he argued what I believe, that a big part of conservatism in the past was their belief that they are morally superior to liberals. They relied on this for 20 years. They simply walked away from it with Trump. It’s breathtaking. It’s a HUGE shift and I wonder the effect on their voters because their voters loved lording it over liberals on “values”. It was part of the appeal of conservatism.

@OzarkHillbilly: I guess it really doesn’t matter what happens at the SOTU. Showing up in black dresses will be “meh” and not standing to applaud his “accomplishments” will be “meh” as well. It will be interesting to see to see if Democrats vote for the phantom wall to get something passed on DACA. Hope not.

One of the political questions for Democrats is how to handle the shift- how to handle the shift in the GOP where they used to at least put a patina of “compassionate conservative” on their plutocrat policy and now they’re just proudly flying the “mean spirited assholes” flag. It’s probably suburban voters, right? The Republicans who would be most uncomfortable with the new “mean as shit” Republican Party? They loved Kasich and part of it was his holier than thou bullshit.

I was mistaken, 2001 was the last production year for the XJ series Cherokees. There are still a lot of them out there because people liked them so much, and still do. XJ Cherokees with solid bodies can be found, but you probably won’t find one with less than 100,000 miles on it – sixteen year old vehicles, right? Ideally find one where most of the shit that goes wrong at 100,000 – starter, alternator, possibly radiator, like that – has already been replaced/fixed. Also the four wheel drive workings – transfer case, differentials, all that stuff.

That being said, if you can find the right one, enjoy. I wouldn’t go over 4000, pricewise, because you (or dad) will probably have to spend some money fixing shit after you buy. If you haven’t looked on Autotrader.com, I recommend it. You can look for anything matching your wishes within a given radius (25 miles, 50, 100 etc) and specify you want 6 cylinder, automatic transmission, etc.

@Kay: they ask for wage increases all the time individually, or with their feet by going to a different job when they can find one paying even .50 more per hour.

You and I have worked as professionals, so we have a whole different perspective from someone who is and will probably always be a low wage worker. The entire calculus of employment is different. Don’t discount the effects of years of propaganda telling people unions will just steal their money in dues and then make unreasonable demands that will close down the business.

Just a quick note that one of the top stories this morning over on Fox is that Obama’s head of the Patent Office billed the public for – get this – $4k in cab rides. Can you believe it? Man, people who bilk the American taxpayer like that should just be shot (shot twice, really).

@Kay: That’s unusual in that the skill trade unions are usually more conservative then the UAW and remnants of other industrial unions and the public sector unions (outside police and firemen). Labor, and working people associations outside of unions, are really going to important to build a sustained, powerful liberal and socialist movement in this country, and the neglect of such movements for the last 40 years during which unions have faced a merciless attack from plutocrats and Bourbon reactionaries (mapped out in the Lewis Powell memorandum). http://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/

The culmination of this campaign is the current Trump-McConnell-Ryan regime, a regime symbolized by its cabinet of plutocrats and generals. It is also all laughs and chuckles until the ICE agents come for your friends and co-workers or the bombs start to go off.

Trump was a kind of turning point for me. They have to start asking themselves why they get ripped off so much. I’m no longer interested in making excuses for people who vote against their own children’s medical care.

Something is going on here. They are getting some benefit in believing that “other people” are reliant on labor unions and state health care and the safety net and they aren’t. That’s not true. They want to believe it for some reason. Why?

There’s this “I’m exceptional” thinking going on, and I think that comes from arrogance. I listened to two Trump voters on the radio, two women, and they weren’t worried about health care because they’re both close to Medicare age. I’m not wasting my time “saving” Medicare for people like that. Fuck them. They deserve what they get and not only that at some point they HAVE to feel this or they will never change.

@Kay:
I also think that 44 hurt them because it was obvious that he was a loving husband and devoted father. Those of us who supported 44 made note that the right wouldn’t even say this about 44.
” I disagree with him politically, but I believe he’s a good American. A good family man. ”

Bothered the phuck Outta them to see this Black family living what THEY SAY they are all about

It is the belief that even the least qualified man is a better choice than the most qualified woman and a belief that the most vile, anti-intellectual, scandal-plagued simpleton of a white man is sufficient to follow in the presidential footsteps of the best educated, most eloquent, most affable black man.

As President Lyndon B. Johnson said in the 1960s to a young Bill Moyers: “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”

Trump’s supporters are saying to us, screaming to us, that although he may be the “lowest white man,” he is still better than Barack Obama, the “best colored man.”

In a way, Donald Trump represents white people’s right to be wrong and still be right. He is the embodiment of the unassailability of white power and white privilege.

To abandon him is to give up on the pact that America has made with its white citizens from the beginning: The government will help to underwrite white safety and success, even at the expense of other people in this country, whether they be Native Americans, African-Americans or new immigrants.

But this idea of elevating the lowest white man over those more qualified or deserving didn’t begin with Johnson’s articulation and won’t end with Trump’s manifestation. This is woven into the fabric of the flag.

…No matter how much of an embarrassment and a failure Trump proves to be, his exploits must be judged a success. He must be deemed a correction to Barack Obama and a superior choice to Hillary Clinton. White supremacy demands it. Patriarchy demands it. Trump’s supporters demand it.

“A religion based on patriarchy and white supremacy”…and authoritarian abasement, I’d add. But not much else.

@Immanentize: Seth Abramson actually said something insightful about that: that when Trump’s people say “no collusion” what they mean is that nobody on their side was helping Russian hackers to steal anyone’s e-mails. But nobody ever claimed they were, so it’s a complete irrelevancy.

@ThresherK: The thing I would look for is one that has never been off the road. Try to find one owned by a grandmother who used it to commute to her library job on icy winter roads. You don’t one from a guy with mud in his teeth.

I think it’s a waste of effort to go after those “white working class” trump voters. No matter how much time you spend with them, they will likely just vote with their tribe anyway. Much better to use that time making sure our voters have the documentation they need to register and vote and to go register more people to vote.

This morning my interaction with a trump voter (he had a bumper sticker) was in front of my office building. This idiot in a truck pulling a trailer was reverse side winding the wrong way on this one way street. When he finally noticed me he kept waving me to pass him on the left and I kept flashing my lights at him. I pulled up and told him that he was blocking the entrance to my parking lot which was on his right and now I would have to circle around the block. He told me he was trying to back into a driveway. I asked him if he thought he’d be finished by the time I circled the block or would he like me to do it for him. Then I drove off so he could see my pus%y hat resist bumper sticker. I didn’t wait for his answer.

@Kay: It’s sort of the same scam for high-wage people too. Lots of companies tout conditional performance bonuses as a significant part of total compensation–but the bonuses only get funded at 100% if they pull in super-good profits.

It’s just that this doesn’t matter nearly as much if you’re not living paycheck to paycheck.

@Kay: I’ve got fundamentalist Christian relatives who voted for Trump. They’ve convinced themselves he’s a sinner who is an instrument of God, so their support for the degenerate has the Jesus Seal of Approval. These are the same people who feel morally superior to gay family members who are better people than themselves by every objective measure — more generous, more compassionate, more accomplished, more loyal to their spouses, etc. There’s just no talking to these assholes. I do so as little as possible.

Chris Hayes had an interesting thing going on Twitter the other day where he argued what I believe, that a big part of conservatism in the past was their belief that they are morally superior to liberals. They relied on this for 20 years. They simply walked away from it with Trump.

As far as I can tell they still say they’re morally superior; they just insist that Trump is also morally superior, because unborn babies/guns/whatever and anything bad you hear about him is fake news. His bad behavior is nothing a hundred televangelists haven’t done, and that never hurt the self-image of fundamentalist scolds.

IIRC, Jeep Cherokees of this vintage have a non-optimally high center of mass, making them less stable (and prone to tip over) during swerving turns (e.g. to avoid some obstacle). I recall car-shopping with our high school daughter and test-driving a Jeep Cherokee, and recall that I didn’t like the feel of the car in tighter turns – we wound up going with a Honda CR-V instead that has reliably run like a champ for 18 years – she’s nearly 34 now, and is still driving that car with her new baby aboard. Unless your dad has a fetish for Jeep Cherokees, I would recommend skipping that vintage early 2000s) models.

They did it themselves but the rest of us are caught up in it, too. And that’s why I don’t want to waste a minute on them. They are a combination of stupid and cruel and I want as little to do with them as possible.

@danielx: Yeah I don’t give a rat’s ass about the bondage. The blackmail threat using revenge porn though? I sure as hell do. Interesting the lie that was hidden in his threat though. He almost certainly has far more to lose than she does. I’m sorta curious if he was aware of that or of he’s that much of an idiot.

@raven: People who only have enough money for short term financial planning have no experience in longer term financial planning much like middle class people who are thinking of providing for their children are not planning for what happens to their wealth 50 years after they die like the ultrarich.

@Kay:
Republican voters don’t actually need to be more moral or exhibit the behaviors they describe as moral to feel like they’re morally superior to liberals. They just believe they are and then look for things to support that position. It’s all about tokenism now. Being moral means being against abortion and gays and voting for politicians who are against the same and willing to spew platitudes extolling their and their voters godliness. It’s just like being a patriot has been reduced to abiding by a heavily abridged version of the flag code and warlust. Things that conflict are jetisoned and replaced with something else like guns or free markets. If all else fails they just make shit up about what liberals are doing and stake out an opposed position. Unlike liberals we’re opposed to ritual human blood sacrifices at dinner parties.

The instant pot is an electronic programmable pressure cooker, yes, and also a slow cooker, rice cooker, and yoghurt maker. One nice feature is that you can saute right in the pot prior to slow or pressure cooking. I’ve never owned a pressure cooker before and I love this device and actually use it a lot. Which is a good thing, since it’s kind of bulky.

They’ve convinced themselves he’s a sinner who is an instrument of God,

I have often wondered how it is that they know the mind of God. Did he speak to them from a burning bush? Did they hear a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”? Is there some passage in the Bible telling us of our great savior who will trump the heretics?

Hmm. I have a really good rice maker and a slow cooker. Is it worth the purchase? I’m at that point where I should probably get rid of something when I get a new thing. I already have a lovely juicer and an ice cream maker in a box under the eaves because I just don’t know where to put them.

@MomSense: I have a good rice cooker and slow cooker too, and haven’t been able to get rid of them…because they’re good and sometimes I might need to use all of them all at once…or so my delusional thinking goes. (It has actually happened once or twice.) The instant pot was worth it for me since I never owned a pressure cooker and it truly opened up new cooking possibilities. I use it fairly frequently, especially for cooking beans. What’s fun is trawling the internet for recipes, like a Thai coconut curry fish that I did recently in the pot, which was GREAT and took not long at all. So, it’s a highly functional toy for people who like kitchen gadgets. YMMV. :)

ETA: There are facebook groups dedicated to the instant pot. It’s quite a cult. But one can glean useful info and creative uses and recipes from them, which is good fun.

@rikyrah: They even went after that. I remember seeing some strange winger criticisms of Obama as being unable to “control” his wife and children; they were describing him as a weak, henpecked husband and father. I guess it tied into the racist/sexist jibes about Michelle as being some kind of grotesque un-feminine figure.

…And that also reminds me of the strange business about how Mitt Romney was somehow more macho than Barack Obama because his sperm sired boys instead of girls.

Drafted into making breakfast by non-negotiable demands. Omelets with red bell pepper, onion and munster cheese, hillbelly sausage from Smoking Goose and cinnamon rolls. If you can get here in fifteen minutes you’re golden.

Chuck Jones, fmr president of United Steelworkers 1999, in Indiana, is no snowflake nor fool-sufferer. He just told a crowd of reporters & fmr Carrier workers in Indy: “Donald Trump is a liar & an idiot” and “a con man pure & simple who sold us a bag of shit.”

That Trump was a conman and bullshit artist who could not deliver on anything was obvious well back into the late 1980s. If you ever thought anything he ever claimed was true, you need to be confined for your own safety.

The revelations broke last night with this report from KMOV, the CBS affiliate in St. Louis.

Governor Eric Greitens on Wednesday night confirmed to News 4 he had an extramarital affair, an admission a months-long News 4 investigation prompted.

In a recording obtained by News 4, a woman says she had a sexual encounter with Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens and that he tried to blackmail her to keep the encounter quiet.

The details were provided to News 4 by the woman’s ex-husband, claiming the sexual relationship happened between his now ex-wife and Greitens in March 2015. News 4 is not naming the woman and she has not made an on-the-record comment about the story.

The ur Greenwald comment. The holy grail. The apotheosis. The exemplar.

Glenn Greenwald
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Verified account

@ggreenwald
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Trump’s moronic, inconsistent tweets will dominate the FISA storyline today – it’s fun and easy – but much more significant is the key role leading Dems are playing in handing Trump (someone they claim is a lawless tyrant) vast, virtually unlimited domestic spying powers.

@Kay: Every Republican voter I know in rural Maryland is convinced that they are entirely self-reliant and receive nothing from the government. Point out just how costly rural life is with mostly elderly folk living in far-flung places and they draw a blank. Point out how little revenue the county generates and how much they depend on revenue from the DC ‘burbs and they look at you like you’re crazy. I really think the best thing every state govt could do is send citizens a statement every year on what every county paid in tax and what it received in subsidies.

They are good cars, 4.2 on Emunds.com 5 point rating scale. last of the earlier design from the 90’s. They have the solid 4.0 liter inline 6. You know who buys and drives them? Jeep technicians. There are a ton of Jeep forums, read them. On a personal note, I had a Grand Cherokee 4×4 for a company car for two years in the mid-90s, a really solid vehicle and that 6 was a strong engine.
Old Bill, a Jeep tech I know pretty well, gives them, the engine especially, a 15 on a 10 scale. Bill has been around a long time, his first paid gig was a pre-delivery inspection on a 62 Lancer

@OzarkHillbilly: yeah. I think the goal for the SOTU should be to force trump off the rails. He’s easily distractible, so that should be very doable. A little pressure applied by dems in the form of unexpected behaviors will send the preznit right off. Could be great theater and devastating for trump as his enablers.

Probably a dead thread now. Years ago we rented a Jeep Cherokee in AZ for a trip around, even into New Mexico, Petrified Forest, Painted Desert, Navajo Nation. It ran OK, but even just driving on paved roads, it about wore my butt out. Numb would have been better, it hurt!

The trip was great, saw most of eastern AZ, everything east of the Superstition Mountains.

But the Jeep, never again.

Hope the Democratic members of Congress are able to drive Trump into shouting racist slogans and frothing at the mouth !!! Will pay a lot to see and hear that.