The last time I checked I was one of the people on Gogh's foe list. If I still am that proves he clicks on the "see this post" option at least some of the time. If he is willing to do that for comments I have made, isn't it also likely that he does it for others on his foes list? IF he took me off, I'm sure this comment just put me back on it.

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

Fighter you like getting caught cheating once or twice = OK with me once reinstated;Fighter you dislike getting caught cheating once or twice = "Chronic PED cheat".

0T0 = relative morals.

Twist and turn it any way you like it, once you're caught with some body transforming chemicals in your system you're already experiencing a physiological advantage over all fighters who aren't. Trying to argue your way out with semantics just to defend what's indefensible only makes you look like an irrational fanboy.

There's nothing separating Jones from Overeem, Vitor and AS (other than weight-classes), just to name a few, if you make PED's your subject of choice for such a fucktard lengthy discussion. Now quit trying, boy

Just trying to keep up with you.It's clear for everyone to see, you're proud to made somewhat of a crude art form out of spewing your raw thoughts.I'm pretty sure I've always been on topic when dealing with what I thought this forum was all about, unlike yourself.But I'm always up for some good ol' FUUUN!!!Stay salty my friend P.s. Jones definitely looks like a juice-head here...Now, all I need is that pesky evidence samwayne: this is what most would agree as context for images.I hope you're taking note.

yodelling wrote:Fighter you like getting caught cheating once or twice = OK with me once reinstated;Fighter you dislike getting caught cheating once or twice = "Chronic PED cheat".

0T0 = relative morals.

Twist and turn it any way you like it, once you're caught with some body transforming chemicals in your system you're already experiencing a physiological advantage over all fighters who aren't. Trying to argue your way out with semantics just to defend what's indefensible only makes you look like an irrational fanboy.

Selective reading I see.I cleared up my misunderstanding with samwayne. My recollection of Justino's issues in the "past" was foggy.It's that simple.

Anyone is free to speculate all they want about any or everything in this universe, but when it comes time to make a claim: it has to be backed by independently verifiable evidence. If Jones (or any other fighter) is claimed to be a chronic PED/Drug cheat with a history of PED/Drug use, the one making such claim simply needs to provide evidence.

As much as any reasonable person can suspect Jones, Justino or any other fighter of chronic PED/Drug cheating, that same person can't reasonably claim as "fact" that Jones, Justino or any other fighter is a chronic PED/Drug cheat without further proof/evidence. samwayne finally agrees that Jones was only caught once, much like Justino, so where's the other flagged tests from either of them: that you can present as evidence?

Is the physiological advantage indefinite or did the UFC/USADA not suspend Jones long enough, screen him and clear him to return to your satisfaction? I'm hoping they didn't let some roid-head return to competition sooner than they should, but again, I (we) have no control over their rulings. There's tons of things I don't like about combat sports, and sports in general, but I have no control over these things: so I can either accept things and move on, or opt out. I choose of try to enjoy as many fights as I can, regardless of the situation or outcome. It seems your issue is also with the UFC/USADA.

yodelling wrote:There's nothing separating Jones from Overeem, Vitor and AS (other than weight-classes), just to name a few, if you make PED's your subject of choice for such a fucktard lengthy discussion. Now quit trying, boy

The reason it's a subject of choice, is due to the fact that I dismissed samwayne on most of the other grievances he has. And somehow he's decided to make this his Little Bighorn. You can go to p2 to see where samwayne starts airing his grievances about Jones, which have as much influence as my opinions, or anyone else's on the UFC/USADA's operations. Then skip to p10 and onwards (only if you have time to kill).

Simply put: How does holding grudges, or whining results help correct a perceived mistake?

I enjoy fights for what they are, and I move on. What else would you suggest I do? If a fight is scheduled, I watch, and it doesn't matter if I hope for a certain outcome. What happens is out of our control. And it doesn't matter if I hope for an exciting fight as well. Like lukeo said "It's an MMA contest, not a popularity contest ffs!".

Oto, Now all you are doing is trying to deflect from my original point. You are doing so to avoid admitting you are a hypocritical JBJ fanboy. I am not the only one to call you out on this. Ever heard the saying "if the whole world stinks it might just be your upper lip?" You arguing with multiple people on this issue isn't helping your argument in the slightest. I am not saying that the majority is always right, but in this case the evidence that has been presented proves you wrong, and the rest of us disagreeing with you (the majority) RIGHT.

Jon was busted for having TWO banned substances in his system. That is a FACT. Jon's urinalysis results caused two anti-doping experts to have their suspicions. That is also a FACT. Jon's T/E ratio was very low, even though there was no medical reason why it should've been. That is yet another FACT. Having a combination of a low T/E ratio, AND estrogen blockers in your system, is a known sign of someone who is cycling off of PED's. That is a FACT. Jon said that he only took ONE **** pill, but simply taking one **** pill could not cause a person to have a low T/E ratio. That is another FACT. The only thing that saved Jon this time around from having a CIR performed on his urine sample was the lower T/E ratios of the older fighters in his division. That is one more FACT to add to the list.

YOU keep trying to make this out to be a "grudge" I am holding because it is your only recourse at this point. I have proven you wrong at every turn, and pointed out your flawed analysis of the situation as well. This isn't a "grudge" as I have already told you I don't have a problem with Jon continuing to fight. The only reason I even talked about Jon, or this situation, is because of the title of the thread man. It's not like I go around bashing Jon all over the forum every single time I get the chance. The only time I talk about Jon, and this is good or bad, is when I am commenting on one of his fights, or a thread that is about him.

This isn't about me hating Jones. This is all about YOU absolutely ADORING Jon Jones. THAT is the reason you don't want to take anything I am saying into consideration. THAT is the only reason you consider everything I am saying to be speculation or irrelevant. That is also the only reason this conversation has gone on as long as it has. Your love of Jones clouds your judgement. My "meh" attitude toward him cause me to be able to see the whole picture. You are clearly highly infatuated with Jon Jones and his fighting style, and quite possibly the man himself. Because love causes all of us to be blind at some point, I can forgive your hypocrisy and inability to stay consistent. This is the last I am going to say to you on the matter, as arguing with someone who is using feelings over facts never ends. Have a good one Oto.

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

xSamWaynex wrote:Cormier has a very likely chance of beating Jones. Cormier has great wrestling, and we know he can take a heavy shot and still keep coming (even though JBJ isn't exactly known as a power puncher). He has fairly decent cardio for a person as stocky as he is as well. He has power in his striking, and his striking overall is a bit underrated by some in my opinion. IF DC can get inside and employ the clinch more this time around, and avoid letting Jon use his longer arms as leverage to take Cormier down I can seriously see DC taking this one.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that DC will win this one via TKO in the late 2nd to early 3rd round. Jones is coming off of a layoff, and his last fight against OSP made him look like recycled shit. Also, because of the new rules in place, Jones also will have to work extra hard at using his number one weapon the "accidental", wink wink nudge nudge, eye poke. Jones looks stellar in the striking department once he has his opponent half blind and unable to see the attack coming. Without the eye poke though we have seen what he is really like. In the first fight against DC, his striking was lack luster at best, and he didn't throw nearly as many flashy moves as he normally does in his fights. In the OSP fight the same can be said. I know some others will disagree with me on that assessment, but I still feel as though it is the truth, and the fights do tend to back up my assessment.

I also feel like Jones is going to look more lackluster in this fight because he won't be able to have his magic juice. This is another bone of contention some people seem to have with me when conversing on this subject. I believe that Jones has been doping for a while now, and was finally caught much like Anderson Silva was. Jones' defense on how the estrogen blockers got in his system is suspect at best. We know that Jon isn't above cheating while in the octagon, and we also know what kind of person he is outside the octagon as well. Taking those things into account, on top of the suspect defense and him having another wonky piss test from another UFC event, it's not that much of a stretch to make the claim that Jon has been on PED's for quite a while.

No one is okay with any illegal strikes, especially in this case: eye pokes. I thought this issue was dismissed when we agreed that, intentional or not, the UFC should do a better job of keeping fighters safe and discouraging dangerous/illegal actions. But you doubled down, with your new theory that Jones's uses "his number one weapon the "accidental", wink wink nudge nudge, eye poke.". Even though you acknowledge your opinion that Jones only pulls out "his flashy moves" after he blinds his opponent with "his number one weapon", is a controversial theory, you still claim his fights back up your assessment.

Since Jones/St. Preux and Jones/Cormier 1 are examples of subpar performances by Jones, due to his inability to employ "his number one weapon": can you present evidence of a fight (or fights) where Jones pulled out "his flashy moves" after using "his number one weapon"? While on the topic of Jones/Cormier 1, are you still going to deny your claim that Jones's "striking was lack luster at best" after Jones was awarded FOTN in his win over Cormier? You did however write "but I still 'feel' as though it is the 'truth'", maybe your "feelings" about that "truth" have since changed, or my reading comprehension is not on your level.

I thought you finally abandoned your opinion about Jones's "illegal" kicks, but I might be wrong. The SACs, UFC, etc. don't seem to have any issues with said kicks; in fact, more fighters (from the UFC and other promotions) have been utilizing these kicks in competition. I find it hypocritical at best, to complain about any "legal" technique. How is a legal lower body leg strike any worse than a legal upper body leg strike? So you're okay with Cormier getting cracked to the head by Jones's kick and GnP'd to a KO, but you're not okay with Jones using push kicks to slow/stop Cormier's advances. I thought we were talking about the violent sport of MMA, is it not sometimes referred to as the "hurt business"?

Finally, it seems only after Cormier started accusing Jones of being a chronic PED/Drug cheat (YT 6:30s), that you adopted this theorem. But unlike Cormier, who backed down after he couldn't provide clear proof when challenged, you continue to claim the details of one failed test as evidence for a history of PED/Drug cheating. Cormier claimed Jones had to have been doping for a while, as he claimed Jones was only clean for a handful of fights.

Cormier claimed Jones was probably only clean for Gusmao (2008), Bonnar (2009) and St. Preux (2016), implying Jones was doping from 2009 to 2016. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding, but if Jones and potentially other fighters are constantly cheating the system and getting away with it, doesn't this point to your/Cormier's real issue, which is with the UFC/USADA? All I asked for was further evidence to support your/Cormier's claims, and all you repeat is the details of Jones's flagged tests in 2016.

My mistake for pointing out this post, and all your other posts since as somewhat less than fair, and lacking key facts. Are the circumstances of Jones's situation enough to make anyone suspicious? YES! If Jones is never flagged again for the rest of his career, does that mean he was innocent all along? NO! Unlike you/Cormier, I never chose a side. My position is neutral due to lack of further evidence. Jones could very well be a chronic PED/Drug cheat, whether or not we ever find past or future evidence.

Anyone can have opinions, but when anyone makes a claim, it should be backed by facts. Not speculation or suspicion. My opinions about Jones's situations aren't much different than yours, except for one thing: I'm reluctant to present speculation, suspicion, feelings, intuition or opinions as facts. If you still stand by our opinions that's fine by me, I'll take them as just that.

xSamWaynex wrote:Cormier has a very likely chance of beating Jones. Cormier has great wrestling, and we know he can take a heavy shot and still keep coming (even though JBJ isn't exactly known as a power puncher). He has fairly decent cardio for a person as stocky as he is as well. He has power in his striking, and his striking overall is a bit underrated by some in my opinion. IF DC can get inside and employ the clinch more this time around, and avoid letting Jon use his longer arms as leverage to take Cormier down I can seriously see DC taking this one.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that DC will win this one via TKO in the late 2nd to early 3rd round. Jones is coming off of a layoff, and his last fight against OSP made him look like recycled shit. Also, because of the new rules in place, Jones also will have to work extra hard at using his number one weapon the "accidental", wink wink nudge nudge, eye poke. Jones looks stellar in the striking department once he has his opponent half blind and unable to see the attack coming. Without the eye poke though we have seen what he is really like. In the first fight against DC, his striking was lack luster at best, and he didn't throw nearly as many flashy moves as he normally does in his fights. In the OSP fight the same can be said. I know some others will disagree with me on that assessment, but I still feel as though it is the truth, and the fights do tend to back up my assessment.

I also feel like Jones is going to look more lackluster in this fight because he won't be able to have his magic juice. This is another bone of contention some people seem to have with me when conversing on this subject. I believe that Jones has been doping for a while now, and was finally caught much like Anderson Silva was. Jones' defense on how the estrogen blockers got in his system is suspect at best. We know that Jon isn't above cheating while in the octagon, and we also know what kind of person he is outside the octagon as well. Taking those things into account, on top of the suspect defense and him having another wonky piss test from another UFC event, it's not that much of a stretch to make the claim that Jon has been on PED's for quite a while.

No one is okay with any illegal strikes, especially in this case: eye pokes. I thought this issue was dismissed when we agreed that, intentional or not, the UFC should do a better job of keeping fighters safe and discouraging dangerous/illegal actions. But you doubled down, with your new theory that Jones's uses "his number one weapon the "accidental", wink wink nudge nudge, eye poke.". Even though you acknowledge your opinion that Jones only pulls out "his flashy moves" after he blinds his opponent with "his number one weapon", is a controversial theory, you still claim his fights back up your assessment.

Since Jones/St. Preux and Jones/Cormier 1 are examples of subpar performances by Jones, due to his inability to employ "his number one weapon": can you present evidence of a fight (or fights) where Jones pulled out "his flashy moves" after using "his number one weapon"? While on the topic of Jones/Cormier 1, are you still going to deny your claim that Jones's "striking was lack luster at best" after Jones was awarded FOTN in his win over Cormier? You did however write "but I still 'feel' as though it is the 'truth'", maybe your "feelings" about that "truth" have since changed, or my reading comprehension is not on your level.

I thought you finally abandoned your opinion about Jones's "illegal" kicks, but I might be wrong. The SACs, UFC, etc. don't seem to have any issues with said kicks; in fact, more fighters (from the UFC and other promotions) have been utilizing these kicks in competition. I find it hypocritical at best, to complain about any "legal" technique. How is a legal lower body leg strike any worse than a legal upper body leg strike? So you're okay with Cormier getting cracked to the head by Jones's kick and GnP'd to a KO, but you're not okay with Jones using push kicks to slow/stop Cormier's advances. I thought we were talking about the violent sport of MMA, is it not sometimes referred to as the "hurt business"?

Finally, it seems only after Cormier started accusing Jones of being a chronic PED/Drug cheat (YT 6:30s), that you adopted this theorem. But unlike Cormier, who backed down after he couldn't provide clear proof when challenged, you continue to claim the details of one failed test as evidence for a history of PED/Drug cheating. Cormier claimed Jones had to have been doping for a while, as he claimed Jones was only clean for a handful of fights.

Cormier claimed Jones was probably only clean for Gusmao (2008), Bonnar (2009) and St. Preux (2016), implying Jones was doping from 2009 to 2016. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding, but if Jones and potentially other fighters are constantly cheating the system and getting away with it, doesn't this point to your/Cormier's real issue, which is with the UFC/USADA? All I asked for was further evidence to support your/Cormier's claims, and all you repeat is the details of Jones's flagged tests in 2016.

My mistake for pointing out this post, and all your other posts since as somewhat less than fair, and lacking key facts. Are the circumstances of Jones's situation enough to make anyone suspicious? YES! If Jones is never flagged again for the rest of his career, does that mean he was innocent all along? NO! Unlike you/Cormier, I never chose a side. My position is neutral due to lack of further evidence. Jones could very well be a chronic PED/Drug cheat, whether or not we ever find past or future evidence.

Anyone can have opinions, but when anyone makes a claim, it should be backed by facts. Not speculation or suspicion. My opinions about Jones's situations aren't much different than yours, except for one thing: I'm reluctant to present speculation, suspicion, feelings, intuition or opinions as facts. If you still stand by our opinions that's fine by me, I'll take them as just that.

Why did you go back to the very beginning of our discussion? Why not just reply to my latest comment? I gave you a very reasoned response with cited sources on many occasions, and you go back to the beginning WTF Oto?

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

^^^I was just illustrating, point by point, your opinions on the key subjects you originally brought up.

I thought most of these gripes were dismissed, and we had moved on to the real issue at hand, in your opinion. Which would be your/Cormier's claim that Jones has been doping for so time. I still don't understand how repeating the details of Jones's flagged tests that got him suspended last year, can be extrapolated as evidence of other times Jones doped in the past or present. By your logic, if a driver gets a DUI, he should be prosecuted for all the times in the past you suspect that driver was DUI but never caught, or is that only the case if the driver is Jones?