They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You are making a strawman assumption that atheists somehow think that believers should be perfect people.We are all in the same boat and none of us is perfect.

However, since you decided to stir the waters of who's more perfect and who does more wrong, it would definitely be theists.

Since theists subscribe to a false belief, they will naturally shun any truth or factual knowledge to maintain that belief, even to the extent of lying.

Atheists are not perfect, however, they are under no pressure to continually concoct untruths to justify a flawed belief.

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

Respectfully, I wish to take issue with this. "Cop out" is a term which I don't wish to apply personally to you or anyone else here, but in my experience, a great many "believers" will and do use comments like this in that way. I speak here as someone who traveled down that path for a number of years. I know what was expected of me by my peers, and I know what I expected of myself, and in my experience, very few people these days who claim to be "believers" (I will say "Christians", as I think some comments will apply specifically to that type of believer) exhibit any evidence whatsoever in support of their claims.

If Christians made no special claims, then I would see no reason why anyone should be entitled to expect anything different from them than from people of any other religion, or agnostics or atheists. However, Christians DO make claims for themselves - and those claims are not insignificant.

As a Christian, you are claiming, essentially, that you have invited God to take over your life. Furthermore, you are claiming that the Holy Spirit has actually taken residence within you, and is in the process of sanctifying you. And if you want a list of what that is supposed to mean in terms of your behaviour, then you can consult Galatians 5:22.

As you have said, does this entitle non-believers to expect you to be perfect? No, it does not. Does it entitle them to expect you not to be a complete and utter a**wipe? Yes, I think it does. Does it perhaps entitle them to expect your behaviour to be above that you would expect of Mr or Ms Average Joe? I would think so.

In my experience, there are some fine believer type people. Thankfully, when I was "in the fold" so to speak, I knew a large number of such people. Salt of the Earth types. I was lucky.

In my experience over the past couple of decades, things have gone downhill fast. Most of the non-believers I know now I would describe as being better behaved, kinder, less judgemental, less hypocritical and more concerned for others besides themselves than the believers I come into contact with. Sad, but true.

So, by all means make your point about we have no right to expect perfection. And especially here, if someone who isn't a believer wishes to be obnoxious, rude, hurtful, arrogant and pig-headed (guilty, on all counts if you rub me the wrong way, and occasionally even if not), then they probably should expect similar in return.

But remember, you are the one who makes special claims for yourself. If you don't want people to regard that as an absolute joke, then it behooves you to try and practice what you preach.

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

Respectfully, I wish to take issue with this. "Cop out" is a term which I don't wish to apply personally to you or anyone else here, but in my experience, a great many "believers" will and do use comments like this in that way. I speak here as someone who traveled down that path for a number of years. I know what was expected of me by my peers, and I know what I expected of myself, and in my experience, very few people these days who claim to be "believers" (I will say "Christians", as I think some comments will apply specifically to that type of believer) exhibit any evidence whatsoever in support of their claims.

If Christians made no special claims, then I would see no reason why anyone should be entitled to expect anything different from them than from people of any other religion, or agnostics or atheists. However, Christians DO make claims for themselves - and those claims are not insignificant.

As a Christian, you are claiming, essentially, that you have invited God to take over your life. Furthermore, you are claiming that the Holy Spirit has actually taken residence within you, and is in the process of sanctifying you. And if you want a list of what that is supposed to mean in terms of your behaviour, then you can consult Galatians 5:22.

As you have said, does this entitle non-believers to expect you to be perfect? No, it does not. Does it entitle them to expect you not to be a complete and utter a**wipe? Yes, I think it does. Does it perhaps entitle them to expect your behaviour to be above that you would expect of Mr or Ms Average Joe? I would think so.

In my experience, there are some fine believer type people. Thankfully, when I was "in the fold" so to speak, I knew a large number of such people. Salt of the Earth types. I was lucky.

In my experience over the past couple of decades, things have gone downhill fast. Most of the non-believers I know now I would describe as being better behaved, kinder, less judgemental, less hypocritical and more concerned for others besides themselves than the believers I come into contact with. Sad, but true.

So, by all means make your point about we have no right to expect perfection. And especially here, if someone who isn't a believer wishes to be obnoxious, rude, hurtful, arrogant and pig-headed (guilty, on all counts if you rub me the wrong way, and occasionally even if not), then they probably should expect similar in return.

But remember, you are the one who makes special claims for yourself. If you don't want people to regard that as an absolute joke, then it behooves you to try and practice what you preach.

+1

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.
George Bernard Shaw

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You are making a strawman assumption that atheists somehow think that believers should be perfect people.

it is not a strawman i have seen non believers judge believers for their reaction...

We are all in the same boat and none of us is perfect.

However, since you decided to stir the waters of who's more perfect and who does more wrong, it would definitely be theists.theist wallow in their sin and continue in it..Since theists subscribe to a false belief, they will naturally shun any truth or factual knowledge to maintain that belief, even to the extent of lying.no need to lie the truth is the truth... are you implying theists don't lie...Atheists are not perfect, however, they are under no pressure to continually concoct untruths to justify a flawed belief.

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

Grace alone is what saves you.So, why be the 'best' person you can? Grace alone saves you.Why try to please God in your ways? Grace alone saves you.Why get up and carry on? Grace alone saves you.because of God's love for us, we are not doing it to earn or keep our salvation, that is already done and decided...

What determines whether or not this Grace will be bestowed upon you?belief it is the only thing you have to do...;)

Looks like works and ways were a bit more important than you thought.

is belief a work...??

not at all just belief...So then Grace is contingent upon belief, and God knows the heart, so lets put that aside for the time being.

You see the frailty in this now, right? What is the point of acting good to your fellow humans?there is no frailty in it at all, the point is to bless others as God has blessed you, to share his love and your testimony, you do it out of love, you do not have to but most believers want to...There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word.what zealots burn heretics at the stake?? you just make situations up...lolBoth are believers. Both receive His Grace, yes?

believers receive the free gift of God's Grace, the fact that someone would want to murder would question their belief...

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

Respectfully, I wish to take issue with this. "Cop out" is a term which I don't wish to apply personally to you or anyone else here, but in my experience, a great many "believers" will and do use comments like this in that way. I speak here as someone who traveled down that path for a number of years. I know what was expected of me by my peers, and I know what I expected of myself, and in my experience, very few people these days who claim to be "believers" (I will say "Christians", as I think some comments will apply specifically to that type of believer) exhibit any evidence whatsoever in support of their claims.there is no "cop out" just simple fact, believers are only human, they try their best and they fail sometimes....If Christians made no special claims, then I would see no reason why anyone should be entitled to expect anything different from them than from people of any other religion, or agnostics or atheists. However, Christians DO make claims for themselves - and those claims are not insignificant.

As a Christian, you are claiming, essentially, that you have invited God to take over your life. Furthermore, you are claiming that the Holy Spirit has actually taken residence within you, and is in the process of sanctifying you. And if you want a list of what that is supposed to mean in terms of your behaviour, then you can consult Galatians 5:22.

As you have said, does this entitle non-believers to expect you to be perfect? No, it does not. Does it entitle them to expect you not to be a complete and utter a**wipe? Yes, I think it does. Does it perhaps entitle them to expect your behaviour to be above that you would expect of Mr or Ms Average Joe? I would think so.

In my experience, there are some fine believer type people. Thankfully, when I was "in the fold" so to speak, I knew a large number of such people. Salt of the Earth types. I was lucky.

In my experience over the past couple of decades, things have gone downhill fast. Most of the non-believers I know now I would describe as being better behaved, kinder, less judgemental, less hypocritical and more concerned for others besides themselves than the believers I come into contact with. Sad, but true.how can they judge you,they have no standard to judge by or to hold you too, they will accept your behaviour how ever it is, that does not make them better people than believers, would your parents letting you do as you like and not judging you be a good thing??So, by all means make your point about we have no right to expect perfection. And especially here, if someone who isn't a believer wishes to be obnoxious, rude, hurtful, arrogant and pig-headed (guilty, on all counts if you rub me the wrong way, and occasionally even if not), then they probably should expect similar in return.I agree with that...But remember, you are the one who makes special claims for yourself. If you don't want people to regard that as an absolute joke, then it behooves you to try and practice what you preach.

all believers do "try" to practice what they preach but it is very difficult, as I said we are only human and a work in progress..

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

because of God's love for us, we are not doing it to earn or keep our salvation, that is already done and decided...

What determines whether or not this Grace will be bestowed upon you?belief it is the only thing you have to do...;)

Looks like works and ways were a bit more important than you thought.

is belief a work...??

not at all just belief...So then Grace is contingent upon belief, and God knows the heart, so lets put that aside for the time being.

You see the frailty in this now, right? What is the point of acting good to your fellow humans?there is no frailty in it at all, the point is to bless others as God has blessed you, to share his love and your testimony, you do it out of love, you do not have to but most believers want to...

... and? What most believers want is irrelevant, I am talking about Grace, and God.

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word.

what zealots burn heretics at the stake?? you just make situations up...lol

Well, there were the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, the Catholics did that for a few back in the day, Islamic folks do now on occasion, so clearly the situation is not made up, so please stop dodging.

Both are believers. Both receive His Grace, yes?

believers receive the free gift of God's Grace, the fact that someone would want to murder would question their belief...

It would cause YOU to question their belief, but your opinion is irrelevant on that matter. That being the case, back to my question...

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word, correct?

Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.http://www.debate.org...

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

because of God's love for us, we are not doing it to earn or keep our salvation, that is already done and decided...

What determines whether or not this Grace will be bestowed upon you?belief it is the only thing you have to do...;)

Looks like works and ways were a bit more important than you thought.

is belief a work...??

not at all just belief...So then Grace is contingent upon belief, and God knows the heart, so lets put that aside for the time being.

You see the frailty in this now, right? What is the point of acting good to your fellow humans?there is no frailty in it at all, the point is to bless others as God has blessed you, to share his love and your testimony, you do it out of love, you do not have to but most believers want to...

... and? What most believers want is irrelevant, I am talking about Grace, and God.

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word.

what zealots burn heretics at the stake?? you just make situations up...lol

Well, there were the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, the Catholics did that for a few back in the day, Islamic folks do now on occasion, so clearly the situation is not made up, so please stop dodging.

Both are believers. Both receive His Grace, yes?

believers receive the free gift of God's Grace, the fact that someone would want to murder would question their belief...

It would cause YOU to question their belief, but your opinion is irrelevant on that matter. That being the case, back to my question...my opinion is of course as relevant as yours, if someone wants to go around killing, have they really chosen to follow God's ways and rules, no of course not, so they are not saved, their belief is not there, so they have no Grace covering...There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word, correct?

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

because of God's love for us, we are not doing it to earn or keep our salvation, that is already done and decided...

What determines whether or not this Grace will be bestowed upon you?belief it is the only thing you have to do...;)

Looks like works and ways were a bit more important than you thought.

is belief a work...??

not at all just belief...So then Grace is contingent upon belief, and God knows the heart, so lets put that aside for the time being.

You see the frailty in this now, right? What is the point of acting good to your fellow humans?there is no frailty in it at all, the point is to bless others as God has blessed you, to share his love and your testimony, you do it out of love, you do not have to but most believers want to...

... and? What most believers want is irrelevant, I am talking about Grace, and God.

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word.

what zealots burn heretics at the stake?? you just make situations up...lol

Well, there were the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, the Catholics did that for a few back in the day, Islamic folks do now on occasion, so clearly the situation is not made up, so please stop dodging.

Both are believers. Both receive His Grace, yes?

believers receive the free gift of God's Grace, the fact that someone would want to murder would question their belief...

It would cause YOU to question their belief, but your opinion is irrelevant on that matter. That being the case, back to my question...

my opinion is of course as relevant as yours,

Which is not. Its the Grace of God, not the Grace of Faustian Justice, nor the Grace of the Grace of God, though that is a clever name to the topic at hand.

if someone wants to go around killing, have they really chosen to follow God's ways and rules, no of course not, so they are not saved, their belief is not there, so they have no Grace covering...

According to you. But God knows if they believe in Him or not, which is what you are stating is Grace is contingent on. Some one going around killing is a "work", not a belief, and some one going around killing for what they think God would like would also be a "work", no matter how misguided you or I might find it.

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word, correct?

yes there is see above....

I have, and you have largely ignored what I am stating in favor of what you feel how some one should act, and God should feel about those actions vs their beliefs.

Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.http://www.debate.org...

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

The answer to that question is the same one word answer to this question...

Did you misrepresent what I said in that thread?

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

They think believers should be perfect people, never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

You don't see the inherent self defeat in what you just typed, do you?

because of God's love for us, we are not doing it to earn or keep our salvation, that is already done and decided...

What determines whether or not this Grace will be bestowed upon you?belief it is the only thing you have to do...;)

Looks like works and ways were a bit more important than you thought.

is belief a work...??

not at all just belief...So then Grace is contingent upon belief, and God knows the heart, so lets put that aside for the time being.

You see the frailty in this now, right? What is the point of acting good to your fellow humans?there is no frailty in it at all, the point is to bless others as God has blessed you, to share his love and your testimony, you do it out of love, you do not have to but most believers want to...

... and? What most believers want is irrelevant, I am talking about Grace, and God.

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word.

what zealots burn heretics at the stake?? you just make situations up...lol

Well, there were the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, the Catholics did that for a few back in the day, Islamic folks do now on occasion, so clearly the situation is not made up, so please stop dodging.

Both are believers. Both receive His Grace, yes?

believers receive the free gift of God's Grace, the fact that someone would want to murder would question their belief...

It would cause YOU to question their belief, but your opinion is irrelevant on that matter. That being the case, back to my question...

my opinion is of course as relevant as yours,

Which is not. Its the Grace of God, not the Grace of Faustian Justice, nor the Grace of the Grace of God, though that is a clever name to the topic at hand.

if someone wants to go around killing, have they really chosen to follow God's ways and rules, no of course not, so they are not saved, their belief is not there, so they have no Grace covering...

According to you. But God knows if they believe in Him or not, which is what you are stating is Grace is contingent on. Some one going around killing is a "work", not a belief, and some one going around killing for what they think God would like would also be a "work", no matter how misguided you or I might find it.

There is (to God) no difference in the zealot that burns heretics at the stake and the missionary that goes behind enemy lines to deliver medical supplies and spread the good word, correct?

yes there is see above....

I have, and you have largely ignored what I am stating in favor of what you feel how some one should act, and God should feel about those actions vs their beliefs.

i have not ignored what you are stating, what you are stating is merely your opinion...

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

The answer to that question is the same one word answer to this question...

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

The answer to that question is the same one word answer to this question...

Did you misrepresent what I said in that thread?

so you are afraid of something you claim does not exist...lol

That is exactly the misrepresentation I referred. Thank you for a perfect example of your dishonesty.

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

"There is no observable evidence of a species evolving into another, so science itself is proof evolution is false."- This being a phrase I see way too often

Your problem, like most theists who denounce evolution is that statement, you don't actually know what you're saying, there is no evidence of a species evolving because that refers to something that is happening, there is evidence of species that have evolved(ie: has happened), it takes a long time for something to evolve, the other problem is, 1 species did not under any circumstance evolve into another species (ie a horse did not evolve into a wolf or vice versa), the evolution is changes in the physical attributes of one species to better survive in it's environment. You and other theists need to drum this into your damned thick skulls.

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

The answer to that question is the same one word answer to this question...

Did you misrepresent what I said in that thread?

so you are afraid of something you claim does not exist...lol

That is exactly the misrepresentation I referred. Thank you for a perfect example of your dishonesty.

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

The answer to that question is the same one word answer to this question...

Did you misrepresent what I said in that thread?

so you are afraid of something you claim does not exist...lol

That is exactly the misrepresentation I referred. Thank you for a perfect example of your dishonesty.

lol it was what you were afraid of...

Yet more lies to cover other lies. You really a piece of dishonest work.

Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth

You will not find a single post by any atheist telling a believer they should be perfect, that is indeed a false accusation which you need to admit.

never complain, never lose their cool, never swear, never do things that are wrong...

While I'm not sure you won't find something along those lines, let's see exactly what you'll most commonly hear from atheists.

1. Please educate yourself on science rather than dismissing science out of hand2. Please try to be honest rather than lying.

If the believers here can achieve these two things, you'll find the discussions here will escalate to that of being a lot more intelligent and productive.

believers will not be perfect until we are taken up to be with God, we are just trying to do our best, in an imperfect world...

No, you're not trying to do your best, that is another false statement.

we are saved by Grace, not works, it is about what Jesus did for us at calvary, not about what we can do for God...

Yes we do our best to please God with our ways, because we know how much he did for us but ultimately we must remember who we are in Christ when we fail and we will all fail at some time, the getting up and carrying on is more important than the fall...

No one cares about any of that, it is between you and your God, no one else. Again, just achieve the two points above and we're all good.

if you promise to stop peeing your pants when God threatens you, i will try to read in to evolution..

You have to stop lying about what others say, first.

no lies, you even started a thread about it...lol

Yes, and anyone can read to see your lies.

so did you start a thread about God threatening or not??????????????????

The answer to that question is the same one word answer to this question...

Did you misrepresent what I said in that thread?

so you are afraid of something you claim does not exist...lol

That is exactly the misrepresentation I referred. Thank you for a perfect example of your dishonesty.

lol it was what you were afraid of...

Yet more lies to cover other lies. You really a piece of dishonest work.

lol you made the thread saying how God threatens you, the God you claim does not exist...lol