Just read this most extremely interesting post on the taboo subject of the banning of Tulkus in History. What do you guys thinks?

Banning of Tulkus in History

The CTA (Central Tibetan Administration) and its predecessor, the Tibetan government had long been well known for their hard-line policies against Tulkus and their spiritual institutions. If one were to take a long hard look at the history books, one would find a number of high-profile cases where great Lamas were marginalized, their great residences seized, students dispersed and their line of incarnations completely wiped out from historical records.

The Shamar Rinpoches are one of the highest-ranking Tulkus in the Karma Kagyu School. During the lifetime of the 10th Shamarpa, he was the brother of the 3rd Panchen Lama Palden Yeshe, the second highest Lama in Tibet. Unfortunately, the 10th Shamarpa developed a very poor relationship with the Tibetan government at Lhasa due to a series of ensuing events. After the Panchen Lama entered clear light, a conflict broke out over the handling of the inheritance. Shamarpa received none of the inheritance due to the fact that he was a Kagyu Lama and being a Lama, he has his own estate and inheritance.

However, tensions grew from that day on, which led to the Shamarpa travelling to Nepal on a teaching trip. Shortly thereafter, a letter from the Gurkha king was sent to the Eighth Dalai Lama, claiming that the Shamarpa was held hostage and sought ransom. The government deliberated and felt it was a hoax and refused to pay the ransom. Subsequently, the Gurkha army invaded Tibet and nearly captured Lhasa the capital. In the midst of chaos, the Eighth Dalai Lama stood his ground to remain in Lhasa thus inspiring his people to rally an army to defend Lhasa. After a fierce battle, the Gurkha army was pushed back and peace talks ensued.

As a result of the talks, the blame was placed squarely on the Shamarpa’s shoulders and he was tried for treason. The Tibetan government seized the Shamarpa’s estate and his line of incarnation was banned. They seized his red ceremonial hat and sent it to Lhasa where rumors circulated that it was buried under the front steps of the Jokhang Cathedral so pilgrims would have to step over his hat to make their devotional rounds – the desecration of the main symbol of Shamarpa’s spiritual authority. His incarnation would not be reinstated until the 20th Century.

The Shamarpa is not the only Lama who had received such treatment. During the time of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, the fame of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen exceeded that of the Dalai Lama. Both Lamas were great disciples of the great Panchen Lama Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen. It would seem that the Dalai Lama wouldn’t be able to ascend to his position of authority unless Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was eliminated. Therefore, tensions arose between the disciples of the Dalai Lama and that of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

The worst happened, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was mysteriously murdered and rumors persisted that the murder was attributed to the followers of the Dalai Lama. However, the Dalai Lama knew nothing of the plot and was greatly saddened by the sudden demise of this great Lama. Subsequently, the Tibetan government seized the deceased Lama’s estate and his incarnation name was downgraded in historical records and the search for his incarnation was mysteriously banned.

Finally, another Tulku that received a similar fate was Reting Rinpoche, the Regent of Tibet who came to power after the death of the Great Thirteenth Dalai Lama. Reting Rinpoche formed the search party responsible for the discovery of the boy who would be enthroned as the 14th Dalai Lama. Reting Rinpoche discovered his candidate in Taktser and the divination of the Panchen Lama supported his claim. For the right candidate to be enthroned, Reting Rinpoche had to come down hard on Langdun, the chief minister at that time and other corrupt officials that had their own rival candidate to the golden throne of the Dalai Lama. This angered the powerful Lhasa aristocracy that supported the chief minister with his candidate.

However, Reting Rinpoche managed to push for the enthronement of the boy from Taktser as the 14th Dalai Lama. Then, Reting Rinpoche decided to enter into retreat while Taktra Rinpoche was enthroned as the next Regent. But his time in seclusion would be short-lived as the Nechung oracle suddenly announced that the Dalai Lama was in imminent danger during a New Year’s celebration. Reting Rinpoche broke his retreat and traveled to Lhasa only to find that the Lhasa aristocracy had grown in strength.

During that time, the father of the Dalai Lama had become highly influential in Lhasa. Therefore, he was the first target and was poisoned to death. Then, there was a foiled assassination attempt on Taktra Rinpoche and somehow, Reting Rinpoche was implicated and was promptly arrested. He died in prison from horrendous torture that was inflicted upon him. Thereafter, he was typecasted as a villain and his estate seized and his subsequent incarnations were outlawed. All future incarnations of Reting Rinpoche are banned from being recognized just like in the case of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and the previous Shamarpa.

These are some examples of how the Tibetan government had treated some of these ill-fated Tulkus of the past. For political reasons, even High Lamas are not immune to inconsistent policies of the Tibetan government and they can be stripped of their estate, banned and stories of lies and maliciousness concocted in order to justify the bans they had placed upon these High Lamas. These stories may or may not have been investigated depending on the political agenda of a partisan and biased government. Therefore, the validity of such bans and policies that had been issued are questionable and often shrouded in intrigue.

Glenn Mullin is a legit author, his books were distributed through Snow Lion Publications and he is a friend and asociate of HHDL. While I do not agree with how the information is being used, the info itself is okay. I will be keeping a close watch on this thread to ensure the conversation (if any) remains civil and within the bounds of the Terms of Service.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

Konchog1 wrote:Reting Rinpoche's reincarnation was found and secretly recognized apparently. He currently lives in Dharamshala trying to clear the Reting name.

Actually this is not 100% correct. There were two 6th incarnations of Reting Rinpoche:

Tenzin Jigme Thutob Wangchuk, born in Lhasa in 1948. He was identified as the reincarnation of the fifth Reting Rinpoche in 1951, enthroned in 1955 and recognized by the Tibetan government. He stayed in Tibet when the Tibetan government went into exile in 1959 and died in 1997. He was succeeded by a "reincarnation" that was appointed by the Chinese government.ANDSixth Reting Hutukthu. He claims that the Tibetan government continued to suppress the Reting lineage after the death of the 5th by appointing an illegitimate candidate and then abandoning him in Tibet. He is a public supporter of the gyalpo practice.

So I guess you are talking about the 6th Reting Hutukthu. Somehow, given his politico-religious affiliations, I very much doubt he is living in Dharamsala.

gregkavarnos wrote:Glenn Mullin is a legit author, his books were distributed through Snow Lion Publications and he is a friend and asociate of HHDL. While I do not agree with how the information is being used, the info itself is okay. I will be keeping a close watch on this thread to ensure the conversation (if any) remains civil and within the bounds of the Terms of Service.

I don't have Mullin's book, so I don't know whether this article was taken word for work from it, or embellished by the gyalpo site it was taken from.

I personally do not have a positive view toward the Lhasa government, or the early Dharamsala government, and really there could be great theater--like Masterpiece Theater--made about the intrigue in the aristocracy and their self-serving use of religion to manipulate the public. I don't see any purpose to romanticizing the Tibetan government or the political aspects of the monk cities of central Tibet.

I can't see any reason why I, as a Western Dharma practitioner, should be involved in Tibetan politics.

gregkavarnos wrote:Sixth Reting Hutukthu. He claims that the Tibetan government continued to suppress the Reting lineage after the death of the 5th by appointing an illegitimate candidate and then abandoning him in Tibet. He is a public supporter of the gyalpo practice.

So I guess you are talking about the 6th Reting Hutukthu. Somehow, given his politico-religious affiliations, I very much doubt he is living in Dharamsala.

I will defer to you since I don't remember the source, but I seem to recall him blaming 'those practitioners' for the 5ths death.

Well whatever.

I can't see any reason why I, as a Western Dharma practitioner, should be involved in Tibetan politics.

Indeed.

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

I don't have a particularly positive view towards any political establishment.

But I do consider the great strides the Tibetan exiles have made in the last 10 years in terms of intersectarianism and secularization of the government apparatus. I see that this passage was indeed lifted from a Shugden site so I wonder if the passage is true to Glenn Mullin's text. Unfortunately I am in Italy at the moment so away from my books.

It truly makes me sad how the Shugden sites try to use every awkward moment of Tibetan history to promote a vision that seeks to destroy the process of sectarian reconciling and secularization. The agenda of the conservatives who founded this movement was a hegemonic Gelugpa controlled state which they saw as being hindered by the Dalai Lamas who were more open in their outlook.

My opinion is that if we focused less on tulkus and more on training scholars and yogis that progress based on their merits and practice in this life, we would be well served. Of course there are some exceptional tulkus who live up to the greatness of their predecessors, but there are also many who do not and even hinder the dharma.

JKhedrup wrote:I don't have a particularly positive view towards any political establishment.

But I do consider the great strides the Tibetan exiles have made in the last 10 years in terms of intersectarianism and secularization of the government apparatus. I see that this passage was indeed lifted from a Shugden site so I wonder if the passage is true to Glenn Mullin's text. Unfortunately I am in Italy at the moment so away from my books.

It truly makes me sad how the Shugden sites try to use every awkward moment of Tibetan history to promote a vision that seeks to destroy the process of sectarian reconciling and secularization. The agenda of the conservatives who founded this movement was a hegemonic Gelugpa controlled state which they saw as being hindered by the Dalai Lamas who were more open in their outlook.

My opinion is that if we focused less on tulkus and more on training scholars and yogis that progress based on their merits and practice in this life, we would be well served. Of course there are some exceptional tulkus who live up to the greatness of their predecessors, but there are also many who do not and even hinder the dharma.

Thanks Yudron you are too kind! I think many of us share this view, as I have heard similar opinions from many dharma friends.

At a Gelug conference His Holiness the Dalai Lama mentioned one fully trained, excellent and practice oriented Geshe Lharampa was more valuable than a handful of mediocre tulkus. We can understand from the above that the tulku system was also designed as a way of maintaining the estates of teachers (crucial since they couldn't have children as their heirs due to being monks). For this reason, many recognitions happened without the best of intentions.

Two of my teachers who I cherish dearly, HH Dalai Lama and HH Karmapa, are tulkus so of course I recognize the system has produced some great luminaries. But I also recognize it has produced some troublemakers as well! That is why it is so important to evaluate teachers not based on titles,looks, connections or family line but on their merits as practitioners with qualities.

Geshe la told me recently that the Gelug monasteries have introduced some restrictions on recognition of tulkus as there were simply too many new tulkus being produced. If i find out more I will share.

Konchog1 wrote:Reting Rinpoche's reincarnation was found and secretly recognized apparently. He currently lives in Dharamshala trying to clear the Reting name.

Actually this is not 100% correct. There were two 6th incarnations of Reting Rinpoche:

Tenzin Jigme Thutob Wangchuk, born in Lhasa in 1948. He was identified as the reincarnation of the fifth Reting Rinpoche in 1951, enthroned in 1955 and recognized by the Tibetan government. He stayed in Tibet when the Tibetan government went into exile in 1959 and died in 1997. He was succeeded by a "reincarnation" that was appointed by the Chinese government.ANDSixth Reting Hutukthu. He claims that the Tibetan government continued to suppress the Reting lineage after the death of the 5th by appointing an illegitimate candidate and then abandoning him in Tibet. He is a public supporter of the gyalpo practice.

So I guess you are talking about the 6th Reting Hutukthu. Somehow, given his politico-religious affiliations, I very much doubt he is living in Dharamsala.

Read that letter..one thing is clear..this dude does NOT like shugden!! Holy crap!! Anyone know if HHDL ever responded to this or not?

"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.Through the qualities of meditating in that way,Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

We have to be careful to make sure this does not become a discussion about Shugden as that is contrary to ToS. (I know it is tough sometimes as unfortunately much of recent Tibetan history is tainted with issues regarding this. ). The reason is anytime a discussion of Shugden opens it leads to a huge flame war. By keeping Dharma Wheel free of in-depth discussion of this topic we insure a more comfortable place to post (IMO).

It would help if posters didn't lift information from Shugden sites or post Shugden links. But as the passage has been attributed to Glenn Mullin Greg allowed a discussion of it.

Adamantine wrote:Greg it would seem to me you are misremembering or maybe misinformed...

Misinformed would be the correct term. Wow! Bamboozled! Yak hair pulled firmly over the eyes! Certain individuals are using the Reting Rinpoche letter as evidence of support of their banned activites when, in fact, on the Reting Rinpoche site there is even this text by Kyabje Sangye Dorje Rinpoche, a Nyingmapa lama, which is a direct condmenation of the gyalpo practice.

The weird thing is that the Sixth Reting Hutukthu also condemns the other Reting candidate: Tenzin Jigme Thutob Wangchuk, a candidate that was backed and recognised by the same Tibetan government that backed and recognised HHDL.

Tibetan religious politics.

Is the Sixth Reting Hutukthu just using the anti-gyalpo thing to curry favour with HHDL in order to reinstate the lineage and take back the property associated with his predecessor or is he legit? It wouldn't be the first time that two-face dealings were utilised for this end. There was a situation recently where top ranking advisors and teachers of HHDL, upon their retirement from their positions, went off and set up a monastary devoted to the gyalpo practice, so...

Based on my previous mistaken interpretation I am no longer going to be posting to this thread but will confine myself to its moderation. Thank you Adamantine for pointing out my mistake.

For the benefit of those of us without as much knowledge of Tibetan politics, what is the significance of the term "Shugden"?

If you do a web search you will turn up tonnes of informationa and misinformation on the subject. There is some objective stuff out there but you have to sift through a lot of opinion to get to it.

Thanks - I did have some idea, but I thought that as it was highly relevant to this particular thread, it might be good to include a reference to a definitive source, which I'm sure the one cited was an example of.

Sometimes spirituality is a liberation, and sometimes it's an alibi ~ David Brazier