I suppose this picture was for the usual blah-blah comments of "they're exploiting the kids!" Give children credit. They understand a lot at that age. They understand that precarious family economics suck.

Yes, I'm sure this was the kids' idea of what to do today, and they had to drag Dad along to get him there.

I wonder if there is any honesty like:Son, we have to go and beg, intimidate or lie if necessary to get those other people to take from their children and give it to us, so Dad can retire early and kick it on the couch while their Dad still works to pay for it. It's us or them kids. Now pick up your sign if you want Christmas this year.

Ann Althouse said... @leslyn You're the one who said it. But I guess you don't actually think what you think. You think it, then you fight with yourself. It sounds grim! 4/15/12 12:17 P.M.

What?

And children at that age do understand that precarious family economics suck. They understand it if they're in it. If they're not, they don't.

Dad once toured me at that age on a ship he was employed at unloading. It was cool to be with dad for an hour and feel like an adult. It was also a little scary to look down into the holds and imagine him shoveling the grain away from him as it came pouring in.

Ann Althouse said... @leslyn You're the one who said it. But I guess you don't actually think what you think. You think it, then you fight with yourself. It sounds grim! 4/15/12 12:17 P.M.

What?

And children at that age do understand that precarious family economics suck. They understand it if they're in it. If they're not, they don't.

Dad once toured me at that age on a ship he was employed at unloading. It was cool to be with dad for an hour and feel like an adult. It was also a little scary to look down into the holds and imagine him shoveling the grain away from him as it came pouring in.

Ann Althouse: "You're the one who said it. But I guess you don't actually think what you think. You think it, then you fight with yourself. It sounds grim!"

Leslyn: What?

She's saying that you brought up the "they're exploiting the kids!" angle, not her.

And that you then proceeded to argue with yourself.

I think you intended to launch a spoiling attack on what you thought was going to be a discussion about exploiting children.

I'm guessing you fired off so quickly because you are worried about the meme of Democrats and Teachers exploiting children for politics. Somewhere in your head, you either know its true or that it will resonate with voters. Or both.

"children at that age do understand that precarious family economics suck"

Unfortunately many children your age think that is relevant to reigning in public sector union's distorted power....the ability to forcefully fund and vote in their own management to the detriment of taxpayers. Forget for a moment the draconian measures still leave "civil servants" with far more protections and benefits than most of those paying their fare. Oh..I'm sure the kids have sorted through all that. Blah, blah...

I presume the guy is blowing the whistle to drown out a speaker or make it to hear. What is he afraid we might hear? When did it become the fashion, the norm, among progressives to intimidate speaker and listener alike? When i was a liberal we would never have considered such boorish behavior, such rudeness. The guy with the whistle is an asshole making asshole noises which say everything about what he might believe.

Fen ... whether child exploitation was Ann's point, or not, is beside the point. In that photo they are being "used" to say the least. Does anyone think any of those kids knows what the skilled trade sheet metal workers union represents vis a vis public Wisconsin Employee unions and their rights?

Leslyn ... you jumped in early with denigration of the community here and its host ("...the usual blah blah..."), then proceed directly to an presumption of something that may have been posed as a question, not an answer. Then you imply that kids know when the economy sucks ... how is that related to the event, union rights, or taxes per se? I think they do to, but the context in the photo is not a example of that in any way. If it is to you, explain.

I don't know if the post title was edited or not, but it's immaterial IMO. Ann is not my buddy, we've never met but here, however I do notice that her posts are generally interrogatory, when appropriate, not assertive.

Just me, but even if not posed, the children angle is a fair question, and is obvious in this case. I agree with the others who say the kids are just happy to be with Daddy for a day ... if that is even their Daddy.

I was standing next to the guy taking off his red sweatshirt in the first photo during the pledge of allegiance and the national anthem.

He talked through the pledge and "Sly" of Madison radio "fame" , who red sweatshirt guy was standing next to told him "we need to be careful" during this. When the anthem started red sweatshirt guy did take off his hat but changed some of the words to the anthem while it was being sung ending up with "and the home of the rich".

Oh, and he had really bad body odor - so much so that an elderly gentleman behind him said to me "do you think he ever bathes?"

Perhaps I did pop off about the photo. It was the only one up when I posted, and I got so tired or hearing how children and grandmas were "exploited " in earlier protest pics, you're right, I just didn't want to hear it again. I thought the "exploitation" meme then was silly, as I do now.

I don't know how I then argued with myself, or any of the rest of it. In my mind, children are not exploited by being part of their family's economic expression, and I don't understand how that's arguing with myself.

Leslyn, Your Dad was showing how he EARNED a living. This is teaching kids to beg (with moral indignation) for a living. That's even worse than teaching them to simply beg for change. 4/15/12 1:19 P.M.

Yes, my dad was showing me part of how he earned a living, and he was also showing me how dangerous and hard that work was. He was a member of the International Longshoremen's Union, and we were well aware that without it, safety conditions would have been much worse, cronyism would have made getting work nearly impossible, and wages would have been out of Charles Dickens.

I don't ever remember my dad saying these things to me. I do remember many kitchen table discussions he had with my mother.

Don't preach to me that children knowing these things and participating with their families, is worse than teaching them how to beg.

"Then you imply that kids know when the economy sucks ... how is that related to the event, union rights, or taxes per se? I think they do to, but the context in the photo is not a example of that in any way. If it is to you, explain. "

You quoted the last few words, responded but didn't answer or explain.

He was a member of the International Longshoremen's Union, and we were well aware that without it, safety conditions would have been much worse, cronyism would have made getting work nearly impossible, and wages would have been out of Charles Dickens.

I remember my childhood.

Dad was a steelworker (USWA Local #2173) at the Timken Bearing plant in Columbus from 1965 until his death in 1982. Due to multiple strikes during the 70s and the inability to match Japanese pricing in the early eighties, the plant was essentially closed in 1986. The third strike in 1978, when the Brotherhood of Union workers sold the new(er) employees down the river (a two-tiered salary scale based upon hire date) was the beginning of the end. Google the SW corner of Fifth Ave. and Cleveland Ave. in Columbus, OH and look at what the union left. (25 years of... nothing.)

Mom was a union cashier at Kroger (UFCW Local# 1059) during the 70s/ early 80s. They also had multiple strikes while my mom was a member. The end was when the Union agreed to a two-tiered salary structure that absolutely screwed new union members in 1980-81. I can't remember any union cashiers in a Columbus grocery store since 1985.

Geeze, you guys are really tough on Leslyn. I didn't think she was that far out of line, just a few degrees off on the perspective. Now I'm not sure if I really agree with guys or if I'm just a cowering pussy afraid of a beat down.

She was suggesting that the kids often know through a kind of diffusion that Dad is protesting in order to get better benefits at his job, which, of course, is not that hard to understand as good for them. She may have overstated it, but not by much. I think it is true, but it's not the question. The question is: Is that fair to everyone else? The Dad doesn't care, and I doubt the kids ask him about that, but it would be cool if they did.

...the kids often know through a kind of diffusion that Dad is protesting in order to get better benefits at his job....

No argument per se, but really in this case? Skilled trade union members lost something in Walker's modifications to public employee union agreements? Nope, it is a "solidarity" effort by a skilled trade union member, and I seriously doubt the kids are aware of that nuance.

PS: I realize I'm a pedant on this issue. Left over thoughts from my skilled trades days and regret over the demise of the AFL-CIO as a "labor" union versus a "services" union ... effective with the defeat of Lane Kirkland circa 1995. I've not got much use for any union today, they've kind of passed their sell-by dates.