When the doors are fully opened, and are kept open (which is done through spiritual practice during/after the experiences).

This seems line of thinking seems to equivocate enlightenment with flipping a switch in your brain. In reality, spiritual progress happens daily in imperceptible increments as one hones and refines the mind. Perhaps certain psychedelics can be used as a shortcut to speed up this process, but in most cases seem to become an end in themselves rather than a merely a tool. Besides, what's preventing you from opening those doors without drugs? Living a spiritual life is not exclusive to those who use drugs, and I find that the path of most resistance (ie not taking shortcuts) is the most fruitful path. Drugs are superfluous.

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Perhaps they don't need it, but every noble and pious society, with very few exceptions, has used such things. Greeks, Romans, Japanese, Chinese, Egyptians, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Aztecs, Mayans (all Native Amerinds, actually) - the list is indefinite, because as more cultures rise after this one's fall, they'll be turning to these sources of knowledge for guidance, just as our ancestors did.

These civilizations were great because of strong leaders and strong value systems, and outside of the Hindus neither of those attributes can said to have been significantly influenced by drugs, at least insofar as the Greeks, Romans, Japanese, and Chinese are concerned(None of the major schools of Greek philosophy encouraged drug use, nor did most sects of Buddhism). The shamans and soothsayers of old probably did more harm than good with due to their promulgation of silly superstitions alongside actual Truth. Drug use--for the sake of spirituality or any other reason--is discouraged by most religions, and for good reason: it is an anachronism that should be left for primitive jungle peoples.

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I'm aware that cannabis, for example, should not be taken by adolescents, due to its potentially negative effects on brain development. However, there seems to be much less, if not no, damage done to a fully formed brain through consuming cannabis (though excessive amounts of CO from smoking can obviously cause problems, like the monkey suffocation they used to parade as "death by marijuana"). I wouldn't want my daughter or son taking any other similar substance until they are physically, mentally, and emotionally mature/healthy enough to make the most out of it. However, after that point, I can find nothing to suggest that any of these substances might be harmful in any meaningful way, and very much to suggest that their consumption can generate huge benefits for humans.

Furthermore, most of the cannabis users I know (including my -former- self) are lethargic, unmotivated, and live unhealthy lifestyles. Note that I am not accusing you of any of these things. There's always a duck-billed platypus to mess up the nice and neat rules people come up with.

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Your assertion that drug-taking cannot enhance IQ is baseless. You could provide no source for that claim, since we don't yet even know all of the psychedelic narcotics. As things stand, there are synthetic drugs which increase (temporarily?) your IQ (e.g. nootropics); there may well be naturally occurring substances which do the same (and may even trip you out, maaaan).

I have experimented with nootropics such as piracetam and aniracetam, and while they did provide a high kinda sorta like marijuana, what with enhanced perception of colors and more abstract thinking but minus any euphoria or body high, in the end all they did was make me psychotic. Not smarter. I did a lot of research on those drugs, and not once did I encounter a reliable source for the claim that such drugs increased IQ.

There is a paucity of research on the effects of drugs on IQ. But seeing as it is mostly genetic, and that the part that is experiential is done developing by the end of childhood, common sense informs me that drugs cannot raise IQ. I wouldn't be surprised if they lowered IQ, though.

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Furthermore, the more I understand, the less important IQ is. It is a measure of intelligence, but is not intelligence itself; at that, it cannot denote wisdom, and the wisest might appear to have no intelligence (which might be true!).

I made this point myself:

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Second, intelligence and wisdom, though there may be a correlation between the two, are not the same.

However, don't kid yourself: IQ is important and will determine your lot in life; wisdom is not the be-all end-all. I want to be a computer programmer. In order to be a programmer, one has to have above average intelligence. I am sure you have similarly aspire to take up a profession which requires a baseline level of intelligence.

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As a mild aside: there seems to be a hell of a lot of wimpish, modernistic thinking going on around here. If you're concerned so much about your physical, mental, or social wellbeing that you don't want to push the boundaries, that's fine: you probably shouldn't. That said, don't try to make yourselves out as being somehow "better" for allowing insecurities. I could not live with myself if I left so grand an avenue unexplored; it is in my nature to accrue experience, in whatever way. Life is for living, not for finding excuses not to live!

You show weakness here -- you have been insulted so you insult back. So be it.

Drugs are not indicative of an adventurous spirit. Such a claim could not be further from the truth. Drugs are for those who have given up on life and choose to retreat into their own minds to hide from big bad Reality. Failing to see the beauty that is all around them, they 'augment' (read: distort) their perceptions with poisonous substances. Drugs are akin to life support: when a user isn't high, they're dead -- the only thing keeping them going is the thought of getting high again. They seek to rationalize their decadent lifestyles by advertising drugs as the path to enlightenment, but the only path drugs provide is a dead end. If you want to have an adventure, go hiking at your local state park, hit on that cute girl at the coffee shop, or try learning something you've never thought yourself capable of. Adventures are to be had wherever your comfort zone ends. The one place they are not to be had is in your own mind, where you are always safe and in control.

/troll =]

But see? Insulting someone else's lifestyle just because it differs from your own only makes for more venom and vitriol. I am not preaching, I am probing.

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Here's a very small list of things which entheogens have helped me achieve (or, have suggested might be a good idea): regular (daily) meditation; no more alcohol; greater appreciation of my parents, as well as others around me; growing plants in my home; improved range of composition; spiritual insights along Sufi lines (the Way of the Heart seems to be mine); greater "connection" with my body, with others, with animals and plants, and even some objects; greater fluidity/ease of thinking; comfort in day-to-day life. These are not temporal effects; rather, they have lasted, some of them for over two years. It's more about the way in which one interacts with the world than about any one specific skill or set of skills; my relationship with the world has been made more whole/inclusive due to the use of these substances.

Were drugs really necessary to arrive at those conclusions?

I'll go through my 'revelations':-- The complimentary nature of the sexes. I remember thinking this on my first acid trip. All it takes is interaction with the opposite sex to realize this.

-- The importance of family. Again, common sense stuff that just takes a little bit of self-reflection.

-- A good day is a productive day. I'll admit, smoking weed made me realize I was wasting too much time playing videogames. Probably would've realized this anyway once I got into physical fitness.

-- Telepathy. This is the only revelation I probably never would have had without drugs. Not too terribly important, though.

-- The importance of never giving up. A cliche, but seemed profound at the time. Experienced this thought as a fractal, as though every thought I had during the trip was a permutation of this idea. Really a no brainer.

-- The existence of other minds radically different from my own (but at the same time, identical). I remember blacking out for a second while thinking this on acid, not sure why. Again, common sense stuff you teach yourself as you learn and grow.

et cetera...

With the exception of telepathy, none of these things truly required drugs to realize. I admit drugs have an interesting way of 'crystallizing' thoughts, but they really just get you to think about and appreciate the obvious, something that can be achieved by mindfulness alone.

This seems line of thinking seems to equivocate enlightenment with flipping a switch in your brain.

Actually the switch-flip is a very good analogy. Like discovering a blazing light in a completely dark cave. Suddenly everything is clear. The clarity goes on outwards to the ends of the universe. Except there is no out, and there is no end. That's enlightenment. The gradual kind is more like self-education. You move gradually in a direction you choose. Whereas enlightenment hurls you out into space, ready or not. Leap boldly into the void: You will not be harmed. It has no bottom.

This seems line of thinking seems to equivocate enlightenment with flipping a switch in your brain.

It is. Enlightenment - like anything - can only be achieved in the infinitesimal moment. Once the change in perception has occurred, that gate is opened, and one can progress further down the path. (Also, there are many traditions within which enlightenment is a succession of realisations, not merely a single one).

I engage in daily spiritual practice (not "once" or "twice" a day; almost all the time I'm living, actually). The increments are not imperceptible; one of the most gratifying things I find about spiritual experience is that it becomes noticeably more tangible as one goes deeper.

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These civilizations were great because of strong leaders and strong value systems, and outside of the Hindus neither of those attributes can said to have been significantly influenced by drugs, at least insofar as the Greeks, Romans, Japanese, and Chinese are concerned(None of the major schools of Greek philosophy encouraged drug use, nor did most sects of Buddhism). The shamans and soothsayers of old probably did more harm than good with due to their promulgation of silly superstitions alongside actual Truth. Drug use--for the sake of spirituality or any other reason--is discouraged by most religions, and for good reason: it is an anachronism that should be left for primitive jungle peoples.

Their leaders were initiated into the mysteries of their religions (which almost universally means taking psychedelics). Plato, Pythagoras, Parmenides, Heraclitus, Zeno: these Greek philosophers (and many more - in fact, almost all Greeks for two thousand years) took the Kykeon, and firmly advocated its use. The shamans are correct in their assessment of the spirit worlds to which we have access; theirs is not "superstition" but unclouded experience of what is, presented in metaphor (just as it is for all other people). The use of intoxicants is discouraged by religions (for good reason); the use of entheogens is, more often than not, supported by all but the most established monotheisms.

Interesting, given that I have never, nor do I know anyone who has ever had responses to cannabis mirroring "schizophrenia-like symptoms" (I suppose they mean temporary psychosis? I put most of that kind of stuff down to spiritual reasons, nowadays, having investigated these substances enough).

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Furthermore, most of the cannabis users I know (including my -former- self) are lethargic, unmotivated, and live unhealthy lifestyles. Note that I am not accusing you of any of these things. There's always a duck-billed platypus to mess up the nice and neat rules people come up with.

This I will most certainly grant: most potheads are losers. When weed becomes your life, and you're only exit from your home is to work, get food, and pick up, something has gone drastically wrong.

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I have experimented with nootropics such as piracetam and aniracetam, and while they did provide a high kinda sorta like marijuana, what with enhanced perception of colors and more abstract thinking but minus any euphoria or body high, in the end all they did was make me psychotic. Not smarter. I did a lot of research on those drugs, and not once did I encounter a reliable source for the claim that such drugs increased IQ.

There is a paucity of research on the effects of drugs on IQ. But seeing as it is mostly genetic, and that the part that is experiential is done developing by the end of childhood, common sense informs me that drugs cannot raise IQ. I wouldn't be surprised if they lowered IQ, though.

There is at least one mechanism for the raising of IQ which is enhanced through the ingestion of a drug. For example: taking speed to help you get through a 24 hour arithmetic challenge, you will most likely have increased in your ability to recognise and map patterns at the end of that experience (and a horrible comedown!). Still doesn't mean taking speed is a good idea, though.

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However, don't kid yourself: IQ is important and will determine your lot in life; wisdom is not the be-all end-all. I want to be a computer programmer. In order to be a programmer, one has to have above average intelligence. I am sure you have similarly aspire to take up a profession which requires a baseline level of intelligence.

I can assure you, one does not have to be of above average intelligence to be paid as a programmer (I've known too many idiots in that area), though it is certainly recommendable if you want to be able to do good work!

I honestly believe, now, that what we call the "rational faculty" is almost entirely useless for anything other than understanding cause and effect. The reason IQ is important nowadays is because we've made it important. However, Man can live in conditions and cultures in which such an affinity for reduction is not prized; instead, the intuition is raised above all else, or the mind's faculties are held in balance, or some other variant, etc.

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Drugs are not indicative of an adventurous spirit...

/troll =]

But see? Insulting someone else's lifestyle just because it differs from your own only makes for more venom and vitriol. I am not preaching, I am probing.

I don't particularly aim my previous statement towards any one person, but it is an attitude which I see cropping up here (not just in this thread, I might add). Is it not my duty to point it out, if I feel that my comrades might be slipping up? Though, of course, I recognise that exactly the same argument might be levied against me, from the other perspective ; ) Don't worry that I might have been insulted by any of this! Offense is taken, not given.

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Were drugs really necessary to arrive at those conclusions?

I'll go through my 'revelations':-- The complimentary nature of the sexes. I remember thinking this on my first acid trip. All it takes is interaction with the opposite sex to realize this.

-- The importance of family. Again, common sense stuff that just takes a little bit of self-reflection.

-- A good day is a productive day. I'll admit, smoking weed made me realize I was wasting too much time playing videogames. Probably would've realized this anyway once I got into physical fitness.

-- Telepathy. This is the only revelation I probably never would have had without drugs. Not too terribly important, though.

-- The importance of never giving up. A cliche, but seemed profound at the time. Experienced this thought as a fractal, as though every thought I had during the trip was a permutation of this idea. Really a no brainer.

-- The existence of other minds radically different from my own (but at the same time, identical). I remember blacking out for a second while thinking this on acid, not sure why. Again, common sense stuff you teach yourself as you learn and grow.

With the exception of telepathy, none of these things truly required drugs to realize. I admit drugs have an interesting way of 'crystallizing' thoughts, but they really just get you to think about and appreciate the obvious, something that can be achieved by mindfulness alone.

I have to say, I knew most of those before I took any drugs, and many of the drugs have shown me again the importance of such things. It's all well and good to say "this is so: remember it", but it can be helpful to have a reminder every once in a while.

I perhaps should have made more of a point about the spiritual insights: for me, the workings of the subtle bodies are made apparent through the appropriate use of cannabis. When used for meditation, one's awareness of the body is almost forced to extend to that which one cannot usually feel. There are devices, mechanisms, and pathways within our own bodies which can be shown through nothing other than self-exploration; these are made instantly apparent through hallucinogens.

"Telepathy" (or, more accurately, the transference of emotion between two people) is something which I discovered without drugs, actually, though I find that some drugs massively improve one's ability in that area (2CB, mushrooms, and cannabis are great for it). Still, it's perfectly possible without such things, and sometimes even easier after a while. Smoking lots of weed is like wearing training weights, beyond a certain level: the world is made murkier, less clear; can you still function as well as you normally would? (Answer: yes, by now.)

And about it being "neocon", neocons may not be ideal, but I sure as hell prefer to live in a neocon red state than a straight up liberal blue state. And besides, the mainstream only recognizes liberal and neoconservative, there is no state made up of a majority true conservatives.

That last part is obvious. There are very few, if any, actual conservatives left in the realms of American politics. But I'm really unsure about the first part of your statement. To be honest, the only disadvantage I've found to living in a blue state is that the gun laws are usually more restrictive. Which sucks, but there are weapons you can use that aren't guns.

Did I say Oakland? I had meant Compton, but both have very high drug crime rates.

I wanted to also get your opinion on leaving aside an area for this whole "drug utopia" thing to take place. Keep in mind it's not CA, I don't know where this would happen.

Compton is a horrible metric because it is primarily consisted of subsidized blacks. I think Amsterdam is a better frame of reference for a more civilized drug utopia. I know little about the place, just rumors, I'm sure it is an armpit.

I wanted to also get your opinion on leaving aside an area for this whole "drug utopia" thing to take place. Keep in mind it's not CA, I don't know where this would happen.

I don't like the idea at all, regardless of where you want to put it. It serves absolutely no purpose, there is no need for us to prove anyhthing to anyone. The people smart enough already know, the people too dumb will never know.

And by the way, as an American. I believe drugs should be legal. Here in America we have a strong tradition of seperating government from culture and religion. We don't need laws to tell us what is wrong or right, the only laws we are bound to is Gods law. Our values and religion will be enough to tell us to avoid recreational drug use.

Drugs aren't useless, If drugs are legal I can still get some morphine from the pharmacy when my wife is in serious pain, and a medical doctor who needs to be up all night at the hospital can get his amphetamine if he so chooses.

I wanted to also get your opinion on leaving aside an area for this whole "drug utopia" thing to take place. Keep in mind it's not CA, I don't know where this would happen.

I don't like the idea at all, regardless of where you want to put it. It serves absolutely no purpose, there is no need for us to prove anyhthing to anyone. The people smart enough already know, the people too dumb will never know.Drugs aren't useless, If drugs are legal I can still get some morphine from the pharmacy when my wife is in serious pain, and a medical doctor who needs to be up all night at the hospital can get his amphetamine if he so chooses.

First point - the dumb would be eliminated within the utopia. A dumb person has no self control when taking stuff - chances are they'd all OD or kill each other for more blow. Population control AND getting rid of useless people all at once. What's the problem there?

Second point - yes. Too often we neglect that some drugs have medicinal or other useful qualities here, it's best to keep this in mind.

when I was on LSD I'd usually skateboard with my friends and go on pussy patrol at the mall or college campus

I took LSD for the first time on Monday (long weekend, haha), just as dawn was approaching. I'd had 2C-B with my girlfriend the evening before, and rode the cannabus inbetween the two (fasting, little to no sleep). I spent most of the day alone in my room, shifting between contemplative and meditative states of mind. A succession of real fucking epiphanies resulted: the most practical/practicable example would be the two to three hours I spent considering my relationship with my father. I came to understand a huge amount about him that I had never known before, and ultimately realised that my relationship with him had been suffering over the past year. Having had this realisation, I am now set upon reigniting that relationship - Father and Son ought be as the best and closest of brothers, if not closer. This is a beneficial result of healthy entheogen use: /thread.

More esoteric realisations were along the lines of the impossibility of denial/non-existence (I saw what Parmenides saw in the underworld), the nature of meaning, the unity of being, new perspectives on possibilities within dimensionality, and similar things (only the first three are really "useful" or "real", though). I'll mention in passing the direct and constant communion with the Universe/Natue/God (the Whole, the One, the totality of all existence [including spaces, times, and phenomena]) - this unified entity is still prominent in my experience, two days later, though without the often crippling intensity. My appreciation of the world has not just risen, but expanded in scope, for I have been gifted another (different but equally viable) vision of its perfection. Meditation has also become somewhat easier, my guitar playing skills have improved, and I seem to be able to make ridiculous leaps of logic which nevertheless come to entirely correct conclusions. Also, at some point during the trip, I started feeling as if I had "come of age" - as if it were some kind of rite of passage which I was going through, as it was seen in the old days. Certainly, I now feel like a "man" rather than a "young man". I'll see if any of these effects continue into next week.

First point - the dumb would be eliminated within the utopia. A dumb person has no self control when taking stuff - chances are they'd all OD or kill each other for more blow. Population control AND getting rid of useless people all at once. What's the problem there?

The problem is that wouldn't be happening. Do you honestly think drug users gives a shit whether it's legal or not? Do you think when drugs are legalized all the addicts will go "woo hoo! I'm going to go buy a few grams of heroin!". The only difference for them is that it would be a little more convenient to obtain, and probably not any cheaper because thats the sort of thing that gets taxed to hell. People who get addicted to drugs or OD are going to get addicted and OD whether or not the government approves of it.

And what makes you think junkies will just kill other junkies for more drugs? Junkies want money, not blood. Other junkies usually don't have money, so they steal from regular folk.

The problem is that wouldn't be happening. Do you honestly think drug users gives a shit whether it's legal or not? Do you think when drugs are legalized all the addicts will go "woo hoo! I'm going to go buy a few grams of heroin!". The only difference for them is that it would be a little more convenient to obtain, and probably not any cheaper because thats the sort of thing that gets taxed to hell. People who get addicted to drugs or OD are going to get addicted and OD whether or not the government approves of it.

And what makes you think junkies will just kill other junkies for more drugs? Junkies want money, not blood. Other junkies usually don't have money, so they steal from regular folk.

Real junkies will do anything for their fix. Other junkies may have drugs, so it's not unheard of for them to quarrel with each other. Good point on the money thing though.

Drug users don't care if its legal or not, that's true. But if it were legalized I do believe there would be a sharp (but temporary) increase in usage outright.

Half serious theory - we could market the whole thing as a game show or something similar. TONIGHT ON FOX - watch "The Crack Pack"! The hilarity ensues when Denny forgets to bring his pipe, and the whole gang has to search the park for something to smoke out of! It's armed robbery and desperation at its finest, folks! 9 pm EST, new episode TONIGHT!