Patrick himself is a great example of how hard work and true dedication can get a raw beast to develop genuine finesse and touch in the post. It's not easy, but it absolutely can be done and Dwight just hasn't done it.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen

JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham

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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.

Dwight isn't Hakeem in the post by any means, but he isn't half as bad as people want to make him out to be. He just does more of his work facing the basket, and I could give a **** if my big men score facing up or with back to the basket moves. And he does have a hook shot he uses occasionally.

Amare doesn't have soft hands and finesse. Yet if you see how much he developed his post game with Hakeem its a night and day difference.

It's all about work ethic. Most players don't work on their game. They just get by on athleticism.

Amar'e has always relied primarily on his athleticism, and that's why he went from being a stud to being completely useless after his knees gave out on him. He wasn't great because of his awesome post game. He was great because he could out-quick anyone you put in front of him that was big enough to handle his size/power.

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Originally Posted by Rosebud

Patrick himself is a great example of how hard work and true dedication can get a raw beast to develop genuine finesse and touch in the post. It's not easy, but it absolutely can be done and Dwight just hasn't done it.

I never really saw much of Patrick in his prime so i can't speak much about how he developed, but i'll take your word for it and counter it with this; exception to the rule. He was a generational type of talent that we obviously haven't come across since. Some guys, no matter how much you try and teach them, will never develop the instincts necessary to succeed in the post. I'm talking about small things like peripheral vision and depth perception, and the ability to gauge where your opponent is leaning by the amount of pressure he's putting on your back with his forearm. Things like that help you succeed in the post, you react naturally to spin left or right, to fade in or out. Dwight is a guy that has developed a lot of offensive skill compared to how he came in, but he will never be a Shaq, or Hakeem or Duncan. Those guys just had it in them, and Shaq was one of the laziest sons of bitches to ever play.

I don't know why people don't understand that you can't teach soft hands and finesse. Skill in the post is often time a natural thing.

Not really man. I've seen big men make huge strides in their offensive game by working their ass off. The first step is teaching them footwork, and then everything comes together after that.

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Originally Posted by yo123

Dwight isn't Hakeem in the post by any means, but he isn't half as bad as people want to make him out to be. He just does more of his work facing the basket, and I could give a **** if my big men score facing up or with back to the basket moves. And he does have a hook shot he uses occasionally.

He is really not a good offensive player period. He is better than when he came in the league when he was 18, but that isn't saying much. It does matter for big men to be able to score face up and posting up because that makes the defenses have to worry about more than one thing. Zo and Ewing were a hell of a lot more dangerous once they developed the side shot.

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"I wasn't going to lose to Miami, no matter what," Freeman said. "It means a lot to go out there and beat them. Every time I get a chance, I want to destroy them."

Amar'e has always relied primarily on his athleticism, and that's why he went from being a stud to being completely useless after his knees gave out on him. He wasn't great because of his awesome post game. He was great because he could out-quick anyone you put in front of him that was big enough to handle his size/power.

I never really saw much of Patrick in his prime so i can't speak much about how he developed, but i'll take your word for it and counter it with this; exception to the rule. He was a generational type of talent that we obviously haven't come across since. Some guys, no matter how much you try and teach them, will never develop the instincts necessary to succeed in the post. I'm talking about small things like peripheral vision and depth perception, and the ability to gauge where your opponent is leaning by the amount of pressure he's putting on your back with his forearm. Things like that help you succeed in the post, you react naturally to spin left or right, to fade in or out. Dwight is a guy that has developed a lot of offensive skill compared to how he came in, but he will never be a Shaq, or Hakeem or Duncan. Those guys just had it in them, and Shaq was one of the laziest sons of bitches to ever play.

I know, he only recently developed a post game this offseason. And during his limited time he played, he's actually shown himself to be very effective with it. I feel so bad for the guy bc he works so hard to get back on the court and genuinely cares and has great work ethic, and he comes back and he's showing his great post game he developed and he's playing efficiently etc, then his knees give out on him again.

He is really not a good offensive player period. He is better than when he came in the league when he was 18, but that isn't saying much. It does matter for big men to be able to score face up and posting up because that makes the defenses have to worry about more than one thing. Zo and Ewing were a hell of a lot more dangerous once they developed the side shot.

Why isn't he a good offensive player? Because the people on ESPN say so? Why do defenses need to worry about more than one thing when he's posting up and not when he's facing up? You can shoot/pass/make a move to the basket out of either position. There's no meaningful difference between the two. People just want him to be Hakeem or Kareem and he's never going to be, but he's a good offensive player.

Why isn't he a good offensive player? Because the people on ESPN say so? Why do defenses need to worry about more than one thing when he's posting up and not when he's facing up? There's no meaningful difference between the two. People just want him to be Hakeem or Kareem and he's never going to be, but he's a good offensive player.

**** all of you for making me defend Dwight's wack ass.

Obviously, if he has more than one facet to his game, then he is more dangerous which makes his own team better. That would do it for me.

He isn't a good offensive player because he has no post up skills even though he is 6'10 and built like a truck. That "soft hook" you said he developed is inconsistent as ****. One time down the court, it goes in not even touching the rim. The next time, he throws it over the backboard or out of bounds. I've seen it over and over from him. He can't shoot 5-10 footers from the basket. He is not a good offensive player. I really don't get where you think he is not that bad on offense.

He wants to be the best and recognized as the best center - So obviously he will be compared to Kareem and Hakeem.

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"I wasn't going to lose to Miami, no matter what," Freeman said. "It means a lot to go out there and beat them. Every time I get a chance, I want to destroy them."

Lol i think he's good enough, i just don't buy the "he can be tha greatest evar" thing because i don't think he will ever be skilled enough to do so. He's always looked to me like he has lunch box hands, even after he developed that little rolling hook shot he does pretty well.

The best way to tell when a big isn't really "smooth" is by looking at the rotation of the ball as it leaves the hands. Look at Dwight's hooks. It's like a freaking knuckle ball.

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Originally Posted by BallerT1215

Obviously, if he has more than one facet to his game, then he is more dangerous which makes his own team better. That would do it for me.

He isn't a good offensive player because he has no post up skills even though he is 6'10 and built like a truck. That "soft hook" you said he developed is inconsistent as ****. One time down the court, it goes in not even touching the rim. The next time, he throws it over the backboard or out of bounds. I've seen it over and over from him. He can't shoot 5-10 footers from the basket. He is not a good offensive player. I really don't get where you think he is not that bad on offense.

You don't score 20ppg in the NBA by being bad. He's good at a lot of other things that make him good offensively, like finishing off pick and rolls and cleaning up offensive rebounds. If he ever played with a guy like Chris Paul, his production would increase dramatically. He's never had a "true" PG.

The best way to tell when a big isn't really "smooth" is by looking at the rotation of the ball as it leaves the hands. Look at Dwight's hooks. It's like a freaking knuckle ball.

You don't score 20ppg in the NBA by being bad. He's good at a lot of other things that make him good offensively, like finishing off pick and rolls and cleaning up offensive rebounds. If he ever played with a guy like Chris Paul, his production would increase dramatically. He's never had a "true" PG.

On the first part, I agree. As bad as Shaq was from the FT line, he always had terrific touch around the rim especially in his Laker days. It also still all begins with footwork though. Shaq had awesome footwork, and obviously Hakeem had the best.

As for the second part, you get 20ppg by dominating the glass like he does every year. Jameer isn't elite by any means, but he was/is a very solid PG when healthy.

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"I wasn't going to lose to Miami, no matter what," Freeman said. "It means a lot to go out there and beat them. Every time I get a chance, I want to destroy them."

Because bad offensive players don't score 18-20 ppg on 58-60% shooting year after year, especially when this difference in offensive rebounding numbers you keep talking about is pretty much non-existent.

If you wanted to argue that he's not as good offensively as past centers who have been considered the best in the league then fine. There's not really an argument against that actually. But just saying he's a bad offensive player is stupid.

It isn't a love fest, and i don't have a boner for his offensive game either, but the dude averages 18ppg on his career, going over 20 on four different occasions (there was ZERO 20/10 players this year, just a fyi) while shooting 57%. He finishes at the rim as good as anyone in the league (75% average) and in his prime, a good chunk of his scoring at the rim was unassisted (55 as%, compared to 70as% this year) meaning he was scoring by being fed the ball in the post, then making his move to the basket. He has that little hook that he uses and he's quick enough to make a move towards the basket and get a layup/dunk. He is not a terrible offensive player. Of course he could be better, but he is in no way bad.

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Originally Posted by BallerT1215

Dwight's career average of 18 ppg kills your point on him averaging 20ppg so he cant be that bad right?

No. His ppg have fluctuated according to his development and his injuries. His offensive rebounding has remained pretty much exactly the same, so those points are coming from somewhere other than just the putbacks you claimed.

Because bad offensive players don't score 18-20 ppg on 58-60% shooting year after year, especially when this difference in offensive rebounding numbers you keep talking about is pretty much non-existent.

If you wanted to argue that he's not as good offensively as past centers who have been considered the best in the league then fine. There's not really an argument against that actually. But just saying he's a bad offensive player is stupid.

I mentioned offensive boards in one post. I don't keep talking about it. You do.

That is the point of this whole convo is comparing his offensive game to the other greats. He is not a good offensive player, and I've told you why I thought he wasn't a good player. Scroll up. I've watched him god knows how many times and he has not improved to the point on offense where he should be if he wants to be considered great. And YES, he has said he wants to be the best CENTER in the NBA. Hence, his whole feud with Shaq.

You still haven't said why he isn't a bad offensive player. He averaged 18ppg, that doesn't make him a "good" offensive center either automatically.

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"I wasn't going to lose to Miami, no matter what," Freeman said. "It means a lot to go out there and beat them. Every time I get a chance, I want to destroy them."

He's certainly an inferior offensive player to guys like Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, Admiral, and Ewing, and lacks a go-to move that he can consistently score with, but to call him a BAD offensive player is a bit ridiculous. He's certainly not great, but at the very least he's solid.