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Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Obito never agreed on gai and kakashi's observation nor he said that they're correct.

In fact, does obito/sasuke stated that you can't unleash the true power of MS/EMs with just one eye? And the rinnegan came from MS/EMS, then maybe that ''arguments'' is still applicable to the rinnegan. The left MS possess the amaterasu(?) And the right MS possess the genjutsu and the susanoo when you possess both of the MS. So maybe it's also the same for rinnegan. The left eye possess the 3 rinnegan's power while the right eye possess the other 3 rinnegan's power. And if you have both rinnegan you will possess the 7th paths power.

Well, not unless, obito/sasuke lied about those stuff.

That kakashi doesn't need the other MS just to awaken the susanoo. And obito doesn't need the other rinnegan to use the 7 paths power.

Rinnengan is one of the great eye dojutsu, just like byuakugan and Sharingan.... They are nothing alike.

But you can't change the fact that the sharingan, MS, EMS and rinnegan are just the same eye doujutsu of the uchiha clan. So maybe the rinnegan is also the same as the MS/EMs. The left and right eye has different jutsus.

And no. I think obito was talking about the chakra he needs to control the jins. Obito said that kakashi had an excellent observation about controlling those jinchuuriki paths needs a hefty amount of chakra. Nothing more.

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Do you really think Madara can't use ALL the same jutsu even more the Nagato? I mean the Rinnengan is Madara's!

It understandable that you question Tobi, but questioning Madara is just .... Crazy.

The fact that its Madara's eyes its irrelevant. What you are telling me Nagato can't develop techs that Madara could not? He had a TON more time then Madara did. Madara got them when he was an old fart, then he gave the eyes away. No battle situations from what we know. Perhaps he had or perhaps he did not had the time or inclination to develop some of the jutsus Nagato did.

No. That just proves Obito is not using rinnegan techs because he is already taxing his eyes to the max and not that he has ALL of them. Again going from not using Rinnegan abilities to the ability to perform them all is a long way. That is the only thing he confirmed.. What you expected him to jump and start listing the abilities he has and does not have?

@M3J

Its not common sense. You are using unknowns to back up your claims and that is illogical. You have NO evidence that he can do all the jutsus Nagato could. All you got is the fact that he can do SOME of the jutsus Nagato can.
Its not safe to asume anything. Its completly illogical actualy.

Just because 2 caracters share 2 out of 3 (random number) jutsu it does not mean they share the 3'th one.

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Sasuke still has the potential to do Izanami, just like how Tobi has the potential to even do Shinra Tensei. Even if it's Nagato's move, Rinnegan allows Tobi to use ST even if it's not Rinnegan jutsu.

Yes and Madara has the potential to use all the rinnegan jutsus Nagato showed but that does not mean he can... Potential is IRRELEVANT. Minato has the potential (probably) to trow FRS(even if not with FUTON) but he can't do that because he died before he could develop it.

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So? He apparently doesn't need two eyes to use Six Paths, Rinne Tensei, or Human Path's ability, why would he need two eyes to use others? Maybe he needs two to create jutsu or something.

Sasuke/Itachi don't need it for Amaterasu/MS genjutsu. Shisui does not need 2 for his genjutsu. Tobi does not need 2 for his Kamui and so on. This proves nothing.

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But Madara should be able to use every jutsu Nagato has shown. I dunno how this is even debatable, especially since he was the one who taught Tobi, who apparently taught Nagato. I don't recall if Tobi was ordered to teach Nagato how to use his Rinnegan.

Nagato had the eyes and was fighting before even meeting with Tobi. There is NO indication Madara showed Tobi anything about rinnegan and then Tobi to Nagato. I mean not even 1 piece of evidence. Well he did show him the Mazo and how to work it but that is another thing.
Madara having the ability and potencial to use all of them does no = he can do them. He could have died before getting some of them. He had Rinnegan for something that looked like a very short time.

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Nothing indicates Sasuke does NOT have the potential for Izanami or Izanagi, in fact it's implied that he has the ability to use either. The difference is though, Madara and TObi apparently knew how to use at least one Rinnegan jutsu and showed knowledge of how to use at least two Rinnegan jutsu. Sasuke himself didn't know how to use Izanagi or Izanami, so using Sasuke here doesn't work.

Again aparently you can't wrap you mind around this. ITS IRRELEVANT If he has the POTENTIAL for them. Sasuke OBVIOUSLY should be able to do Izanami and Izanagi BUT if he does not know how they work then HE CAN'T. That is the point.

Using Sasuke does work... Its about the information one has acces to. There is NO evidence Madara or Tobi had acces to the same information Nagato had. You can argue Nagato could have showed Tobi all his jutsus but then again perhaps he did not.

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Didn't Madara say he'd train Tobi and teach him everything? I don't see how this doesn't include Rinnegan either, especially when Tobi knew how to use Six Paths and Madara knew how to use chakra absorption even though he was dead for one or two decades.

Everything? Then how come Tobi had no bloody clue about Edo's? What he showed its ?? Marks all over the place.
Obviously Madara was able to learn some jutsu but did he had the time or inclination to learn them all? No evidence of this.

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It's not just an assumption. It's assumption based on what we've seen. There's no evidence whatsoever that Minato has fuuton or Naruto has suiton, but there's evidence Sasuke holds the potential to do Izanami and Izanagi, and that Tobi and Madara can use all Rinnegan jutsu unless the manga itself states otherwise. Tobi never once said he couldn't use all jutsu associated with Rinnegan - the only time that was ever mentioned was when he admitted that he didn't want to waste chakra on something that could be countered.

Again potential is irrelevant. I am not claiming Madara does not have the potencial for it.

Naruto has the potencial to use those FUTON bullets Danzo had.. So aparently he can do that... Then let's give him ALL the futon abilities the manga showed because he has the potential to do them... Well let's give them to the point manga ITSELF states he can't do it. Got any panels where he ties to use them and fails? Because what you are asking here is no diferent then me asking for evidence Naruto can't do Danzo bullet like futons... He did not show them but he showed some futon techs and he has the most powerfull futon out there so why not? He could have trained for them and we got no idea about that.

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I'm theorizing he can use all of them because nothing has indicated otherwise. Tobi even implied he can use any Rinnegan jutsu when he confirmed the only reason why he's not using the other jutsu was to save chakra, since it's not easy controlling jinchuuriki. It makes no sense that he can use Rinne Tensei and Six Paths with one eye, but not any other jutsu as well.

No he just said he is not using rinnegan techs because he is using the power of his eyes to control the bijus. He never claimed anything about using ANY rinnegan jutsu. Perhaps he has chakra shield and robot stuff but not the rest. Who knows.

As for the bolded part. It makes no sense for Sasuke to be able to use Amaterasu, MS genjutsu and Susano and not be able to use Izanami and Izanagi (don't give me the potencial again...).

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Unless proven or shown otherwise, it kinda does. From Kakashi, we know that not all Mangekyo have same jutsu, at least out of family. Itachi and Sasuke have same jutsu but with different level of mastery. WE can assume that each Mangekyo is different based on what family the eyes come from, like SHisui being mainly genjutsu, Tobi being space/time ninjutsu, and Sasuke and Itachi having genjutsu and ninjutsu. It's also confirmed that two eyes are required for Susano'o, and that it's rare even among MS, so it's also safe to assume not everyone will have SUsano'o even if they have powerful MS. It's also just as safe to assume Tobi and Kakashi won't be able to use Susano'o because they only have one eye. WE can also assume Sasuke can use Izanagi and Izanami as well, because Itachi has said that the jutsu were used/spammed a lot. All Sasuke needs is to know how to use either.

Exacly my point. The rest has no relevance.

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So yeah, plenty of facts here. Little to no facts or confirmation that Tobi and/or Madara can use limited amount of Rinnegan jutsu.

Sorry no facts. Just asumptions based on Nagato can do X and Madara has his tools so he can use X. That is not evidence.

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thanks to Madara. tobi has not come out of most of his fights unscathed either, he even got surprised by Hiraishin v2, his own master's jutsu. Though at least in this fight, plot won't stop him from absorbing bijuu dama or pushing away Mokuton, or even using Chibaku Tensei.

He did not know about ST lvl 2. That is all there is to it. Minato poping in your blind spot made it close to imposible to defened considering Minato w8ted to the point Obito was 1 cm from him. So this is defenetly not a bad show man.

Also we don't know if absorbing a bijudama if posible, at leat in time. If the jutsu is to masive that ability needs time to work. Fat Pein had to stop JMan's Ultimate Rasengan before absorbing it (to have time) and FRS aparently need some time to be absorbed most times. Nagato was also hit by Bee before having the time to absorb it. Same with Kisame and Samehada. First it was the impact and then the drain. if the attack is fast enough and powerfull enough then it can hit them before getting absorbed.

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Tobi used Six Paths on Edo Tensei jinchuuriki. Nagato used Six Paths on dead bodies and put his own power in it. Tobi and Nagato used Six Paths in different ways on different people. Tobi's version would be considered better because they were Edo Tensei jinchuuriki with their own power, supplied the power of their bijuu through Gedo Mazo connection. Nagato's version was just dead bodies with Nagato's own power. Nagato didn't need to expand as much chakra over his paths as Tobi had to to keep them under control.

Well they where better but not because of Tobi's Pein jutsu. It was because the material he was working with was better then that of Nagato. The jutsu itself was just as good.

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This may not be a 100% fact, but Tobi confirms he chose not to use any Rinnegan's power. Another implication he can use all Rinnegan power we've seen so far.

Even if that is true chosing not to use his rinengan abilities does not mean he has acces to all of them. I have no idea how you got from Tobi deciding not to use his rinnegan in battle to have acces to all the rinnegan might. It makes no sense. Its probably the other way around. Deciding to use Kamui probably means he can't use all the rinegan stuff as he decides Kamui is a better option.

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Then how did he know about chakra absorption or Rinne Tensei no jutsu? Nagato didn't even show any signs of knowing Rinnegan jutsu until Yahiko's death, and the only time Rinnegan jutsu was mentioned before that was when Konan told him not to summon the Mazo. This happened after Tobi met with Nagato and his group, so for all you know, Tobi taught Nagato how to use Rinnegan. And considering Madara's main limitation was that he had to stay connected to Gedo Mazo, there's no evidence he didn't have time to practice. He must have, because there's no way he'd be able to asspull chakra absorption out of nowhere. Or even know about Rinne Tensei. Madara didn't need to go into battle.

Then how did Sasuke know about Amaterasu, Tsuck and Susano but he did not know about Izanami and Izanagi? What is this suposed to prove? That people can have acces to some information but not all? Well point granted.
Well Tobi probably did show him the Mazo and what not. He had to SYNC with it. But that is another story from teaching Nagato all the rinegan jutsus he had...
Not claiming he did not have time to practice. What i am asking how much of it? Did he had time to learn all the jutsus? Also and aparently doujutsu are upgraded and achived in BATTLE. Look at Sasuke, Kakashi and Obito. Only Kakashi perfected his Kamui by training BUT he got MS in BATTLE. Obito got intangibility going IN BATTLE by instinct. Sasuke got all his abilities starting from Amaterasu IN BATTLE.

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We have enough evidence that they can use all jutsu. There's no evidence that they can't. Tobi and Madara have never said they were unable to use a Rinnegan jutsu, Tobi can even use one or two of the most powerful or complex Rinnegan jutsu with one eye. There's enough evidence to assume they can use all Rinnegan jutsu.

There is NO evidence they can use them all. Asuming they can because Nagato can and they have the same eyes AND have the ability to perform some rinnegan jutsus IS NOT EVIDENCE OF IT. Its asumtion. Evidence is when its performed or stated so in the manga by a caracter.

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Doesn't work either as we know Sasuke didn't know about Izanagi or Izanami, but still has potential to use it. Tobi and Madara seem to know about all Rinnegan jutsu, and Tobi has said he chose not to use all of the jutsu associated with Rinnegan, especially with his paths.

I'd agree with you if Tobi or Madara didn't show they could use one Rinnegan or imply that they could use other Rinnegan, but both sadly happened.

Again with the potential "face palm".

You do understand they never said they can use ALL of them right? Going from using SOME and stating they can use SOME and never ALL its not the same as stating they can use ALL of them...

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It was draining on Nagato because he was low on chakra. And true, and we can assume it's possibly weaker, but that depends, considering Tobi's Six Paths was no different - in fact he was doing well even though he was controlling Edo Tensei jinchuurikis and confiding the bijuu. If the drawback was weaker power, then Tobi would have failed at controlling the Edo Tensei paths.

Tobi was using diferent abilities to hold the biju's down. It was not Pein jutsu alone... It was a combination of chakra chains and Mazo power. Tobi also had CLOSE PROXIMITY to the realms compared to Nagato. Obito was traveling close to them at all times.

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I don't see how it's illogical when there's enough evidence to prove he could do all these jutsu with no signs of drawbacks. We could also attribute Tobi and Madara thinking Tobi would die as assumption based on Nagato dying. Tobi probably thought Nagato died because that's the price to pay.

Again there is NO evidence in the manga trough words or action to demonstrate they can use all of them, just some. There is no evidence that they can't but there is none that they can... Let's say its circumstancial evidence at its best but not more then that...

So you are telling me that Madara/Obito have a gap in information on how jutsus work AND NAGATO KNEW MORE? Well thx that is also helping my case lol. Even KONAN knew that Nagato would die only because HE WAS LOW ON CHAKRA but now you are telling me Obito and Madara knew less... This means Nagato had petter information on how the Rinnegan works.

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

is madara ems madara? so he loses against hashirama,whereas naruto should have troubles against the bijus,but the current naruto should be strong enough to defeat them,and then the uchihas lose.

madara loses against hashirama for what 00000.1, the were equal and just because hashirama won, the first battle...it doesn't mean that he could win the second one..
obito vs naruto alone mmmm, well it is hard to say, if it was tobi vs naruto, i will say tobi but we're talking about crazy obito here.

living in the darkness and now with a new light, i will raise to a new beginning...

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Originally Posted by EMS

madara loses against hashirama for what 00000.1, the were equal and just because hashirama won, the first battle...it doesn't mean that he could win the second one..
obito vs naruto alone mmmm, well it is hard to say, if it was tobi vs naruto, i will say tobi but we're talking about crazy obito here.

Just saying, Lord Madara lost to Hashirama despite having the Kyuubi by his side, so I think he would win even the second one.
The difference wasn't much, but Hashirama definitely was that little bit above Lord Madara

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Just saying, Lord Madara lost to Hashirama despite having the Kyuubi by his side, so I think he would win even the second one.
The difference wasn't much, but Hashirama definitely was that little bit above Lord Madara

I don't think Kurama ended up making that big of a diference. Going by Madara Hashirma just trew his dragon at it and it was over.

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Regarding the Rinnegan knowledge;

Nagato trained the Rinnegan for twenty-odd years. Clearly, what Obito knew of Rinnegan was nothing but stories he listened from Madara. True, Obito was seen talking to Nagato about his eyes, but I doubt he showed him a technique or something like that.
To prove that, Nagato used Gedo Mazo against Hanzou and it was at the time when Yahiko was still alive. Since Yahiko didn't want Obito's presence around, it's more or less clear that Obito was able to approach Nagato only after Yahiko died, so, therefore, it was Nagato who was manipulating the Mazo with his own knowledge at that point.
The truth about Nagato's eyes was perhaps just a legendary story Obito used to lure Nagato into his plans and nothing more.

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Judging by the double page where Madara and Kyuubi were fighting Hashirama, I don't think Kyuubi was that easy to handle, considering they fought and bled and Kyuubi was still free

We don't know at what point it was summoned. Still its imposible for Kurama to have been used in all the fights they had and all of them (up to that point) aparently ended up in draws. They where close (kurama or not).

Originally Posted by EMS

i don't think madara used perfect susanoo against hashirama.. or if madara even used it at all...i wish kishi will give us a flashback one day before ET madara get defeat....

I am sure he did. Remember when he use his Susano vs Kages he said that they should be happy was as the landscape is not going to de changed to much. I am sure he used his ultimate ability vs Hashirama.

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

Originally Posted by xXan

I am sure he did. Remember when he use his Susano vs Kages he said that they should be happy was as the landscape is not going to de changed to much. I am sure he used his ultimate ability vs Hashirama.

i just went by these words but madara could had use it but i would like to know how in hell hashirama fought perfect susanoo without a having a bijuu power as nine tail and defeated that monster..

madara:it is said that anyone who has seen it dies..

living in the darkness and now with a new light, i will raise to a new beginning...

Re: EMS Madara & Obito /w Six Paths vs Hashirama & Naruto

i just went by these words but madara could had use it but i would like to know how in hell hashirama fought perfect susanoo without a having a bijuu power as nine tail and defeated that monster..

madara:it is said that anyone who has seen it dies..

We can't be sure of it, but we have enough reasons, Madara's persona at first sight, to believe that he couldn't have possibly held back against Hashirama.
And he also said only Hashirama could possibly stand up to him after his earlier Susano'o clones were defeated, so, that would be a pointless statement if he was talking about his previous state.

Tsunade asks if Hashirama really had to fight against this power and then Madara states how he already told them that ONLY Hashirama could stop him. To me this is clear.
You know its actualy funny we have a topic of 10 pages where someone belives that Sarutobi can take EMS Madara:P

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How could Hashirama fight it? Use a ton of wood element to limit its movement and buy for time. The things costs a TON of chakra and Madara would not be able to keep it up for long. On the other hand Hashirama had a TON of chakra and super regen. If the Kages can take hits and live (indirect ones) then Hashirama with Tsunade level healing would do the same.
Actualy i am damn sure Hashirama won the fight trough a chakra contest. Madara going dry first.