I work for a Canadian Class I, and our rules about bottling the air are very similar to what has been described here (basically don't do it).

There is an exception in our rulebook, when running around your train both angle cocks may be closed after the train's brake pipe has been fully vented or left in emergency, and the angle cock has been left open for at least two minutes. By this time the train's brake pipe pressure will be zero, and releasing the brakes would require the brake pipe pressure to increase to around 65 PSI (if you started with a 90 PSI charge like we do).

This exception is only for the minimum length of time required to run around the train.

_________________Greetings from Alberta-an Articulate Malcontent

Mount Royal

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:12 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pmPosts: 308Location: Danbury, CT

mldeets wrote:

Randy,I'm always looking to learn something and will freely admit when I'm wrong particularly when it comes to safety. Upon reread, I could have made my earlier post in a less pointed manner. It could be we are dealing with a difference in jargon or semantics. That being said I would admonish you to reread the order of your own words (edited for brevity but the original order preserved):

Mount Royal wrote:

...and the locomotive cut away. The consist will dump. ...

We have one end of the train open to the atmosphere.

Mount Royal wrote:

...The locomotive makes its run to the other end while a conductor or brakeman closes the new “back door” angle cock, and places the rear marking device. ...

I took this to mean that both ends of the consist are now closed off (to me, bottled).

Mount Royal wrote:

...The angle cock at the other end is opened for the locomotive. ...

Once again the brake pipe is open to the atmosphere.

Mount Royal wrote:

...The locomotive then couples up, the hoses made up, and the air is cut in. ...

All is back to normal with the locomotive back in control of the brakes.

While very shortly after the engine cuts off & the brakes dump there will be practically zero positive pressure in the brake pipe (no "air" to "bottle"), the above order of procedure indicates to me there is at least a short time both ends of the brake pipe are closed ("bottled"). While we may disagree on the meaning of the term "bottling the air" I hope we can both agree that it is never a good idea to have both ends of a brake pipe closed off at the same time.The training officer at Mid-Continent (a life-long rail) that taught me would remind us that every rule in the book was written in blood. In that spirit, I can't agree more with your last statement:

Mount Royal wrote:

...Again, please consult the proper rules and instructions that apply to your operation for exact details and procedures.

mld

I may have not been perfectly clear. Our conductor is typically located at the rear upon making the stop for the run around. He or she is there to open the rear angle cock and transfer the rear end marking device to the other end once the locomotive has cut away and the brake pipe is open to atmosphere. The conductor walks to the other end which will become the rear and upon arrival there, places the rear end marking device and closes the angle cock at that time. The conductor will remain in that position until the locomotive is again coupled to the consist, brake pipe connected, and consist charged. They will request a set and release of the brakes at that time. This is the procedure when an assistant conductor is present as that individual would perform the tasks on the other (locomotive) end The brake pipe is open to the atmosphere while the consist stands alone, as per air brake rules and train handling instructions. The air is at no time, bottled.

_________________Randy PattersonRMNE/NAUG

TrainDetainer

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:28 pm

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pmPosts: 81

mld - You are correct in your read of Randy's post. I read it the same way, with a certain amount of alarm. I hope it was just a slip on his part in typing it up, but it is attention to details like this that mean the difference between a safe operation and problems one doesn't want. Good catch on your part. A control valve leaking by internally likely won't be heard or noticed during an Initial Terminal Test and if there is one it doesn't take any time at all, particularly with the relatively short consists in tourist/museum service, for a bottled trainline to go to release. With two miles of autoracks in the middle of winter it's a different animal, but a very short train is asking for trouble.

_________________G.______________________________________Radio crackles - "What the #^(& did we just hit, over?"

R.L.Kennedy

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:50 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:37 pmPosts: 97

It is important to realize modern freight train air brakes are far different than steam-era UC and AB brakes. Modern ABDW are VERY sensitive to minimal changes in pressure and as such can release the train brake unintentionally when engine is uncoupled. This is why when making a set off or lift the train air is dumped. AND multiple hand brake are applied! It then takes time recharging the trainline which is why these moves (especially with two man crews) take so much longer than in the old days.

In those old days it was absolutely forbidden to ever dump the air on standing passenger equipment since this could damage the internal valves etc. account the more complicated insides of these brakes. Carmen and trainmen knew better than to ever do this less they cause damage or even be seen (heard actually!) doing this.

RLK CPR retired.

mldeets

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:15 pm

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:06 amPosts: 163

Randy,Thanks for the clarification. As our Australian brethren might say, "Fair Dinkum" and I understand your staffing and responsibilities better. I'm glad for the calm discussion.

At North Freedom the conductor is usually busier with detraining and herding the passengers as on our normal runs we unload at each end even though we are an "out and back" operation. The conductor is in charge of passenger (customer) safety and while the trainmen assist they are also charged with wrangling the runaround.

This part of the discussion as well as the information from sd70dude really brings home the fact that a person must consult, learn and know the local rulebook to safely operate at any venue.

mld

Mount Royal

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:27 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pmPosts: 308Location: Danbury, CT

mldeets wrote:

Randy,Thanks for the clarification. As our Australian brethren might say, "Fair Dinkum" and I understand your staffing and responsibilities better. I'm glad for the calm discussion.

At North Freedom the conductor is usually busier with detraining and herding the passengers as on our normal runs we unload at each end even though we are an "out and back" operation. The conductor is in charge of passenger (customer) safety and while the trainmen assist they are also charged with wrangling the runaround.

This part of the discussion as well as the information from sd70dude really brings home the fact that a person must consult, learn and know the local rulebook to safely operate at any venue.

mld

We are quite fortunate to normally run with an engineer, conductor, assistant conductor/brakeman, and car hosts. The car hosts wrangle the passengers for the most part.

I have amended my original post with my clarification in hopes to avoid any further confusion. I still encourage people to consult the operating rules and instructions that apply to their organization/operation.

_________________Randy PattersonRMNE/NAUG

Stationary Engineer

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:42 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pmPosts: 63

Besides not bottling the air, we also tie down a hand brake while doing a run-around. At the depot the track is on a grade, so we also pull the train up on a skate before cutting away.Tom

seth4404

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:52 am

Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:39 pmPosts: 5

I think it's important to have well written air brake rules that outline when a certain inspection is required, and a step by step outline of how to perform the test.

I find too many organizations I've been to where crewmembers don't know why they're doing a certain test, or even what the test actually is (Class I, Class III, Transfer, etc) but instead rely on the age old "it's what we always do at such n such run around." Crews need to be trained in the rules and how and when to apply them. Hard to do when operations are the same 95% of the time.

Lincoln Penn

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:06 pm

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pmPosts: 763

And you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just copy verbatim thepertinent parts of the air brake rules in the GCOR or NORAC and gowith that in your rules.

TrainDetainer

Post subject: Re: Passenger Train Brake Tests

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:20 pm

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pmPosts: 81

Slightly OT, but has anyone noticed a lag in posts appearing on a thread? I wrote my earlier post to mld in response to Randy's first post. Had Randy's 5:18 pm post been visible I wouldn't have even bothered to comment. Was glad to read the 5:18 though for the clarification.

_________________G.______________________________________Radio crackles - "What the #^(& did we just hit, over?"

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