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If you have unprotected sex with strangers without disclosing your status would you then tell your sexual health doctor?

This happened today, and upon revealing that I hadn't used condoms with the people that I'd had sex with most recently, the doctor went into 'stern' mode. I told him that people were having sex with of their own volition and that if they wanted the sex to be unprotected then it was their choice. His response was that they only had a 'real' choice if I told them I was positive. Hmmm...

I didn't wish to continue this line of conversation so asked that we move on.

I know that doctors see it as their job to 'educate' about safer sex, but it irks me that they're peddling the view that it's the one (diagnosed) with HIV that has to take responsibility. And it did make me think I'd probably just lie in future to avoid being lectured.

So, when asked by doctors/nurses, are you inclined to tell them the truth about your condomless encounters, or not?

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''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Whether or not you disclosed to sex partner doesn't make a difference in how you should be treated medically. So why even discuss with the doctor that you did / did not disclose?

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

If you have unprotected sex with strangers without disclosing your status would you then tell your sexual health doctor?

This happened today, and upon revealing that I hadn't used condoms with the people that I'd had sex with most recently, the doctor went into 'stern' mode. I told him that people were having sex with of their own volition and that if they wanted the sex to be unprotected then it was their choice. His response was that they only had a 'real' choice if I told them I was positive. Hmmm...

I didn't wish to continue this line of conversation so asked that we move on.

I know that doctors see it as their job to 'educate' about safer sex, but it irks me that they're peddling the view that it's the one (diagnosed) with HIV that has to take responsibility. And it did make me think I'd probably just lie in future to avoid being lectured.

So, when asked by doctors/nurses, are you inclined to tell them the truth about your condomless encounters, or not?

I always disclose before sex and would only have unprotected sex with others who live with HIV .

I assume you are talking about low risk activity's with people of unknown status when you say you are having unprotected sex without disclosing right ?

Penetrative sex is low risk if you are undetectable and are also the one being penetrated.

I am also curious as to why you felt you needed to give that information to your doctor, and what exactly is your purpose in starting this thread.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

2. I gave the information to the doctor because I was asked - not for the first time. I started this thread to ascertain what others do in this situation.

You realize of course that U/D in blood does not necessarily equal U/D in semen, right?

As much as I am VEHEMENTLY against the criminalization of HIV infection, I rather think that exposing people to HIV without their informed consent is the hallmark of a sociopath.

Thanks for making it that much worse for the rest of us out here, passing along the stigma of HIV, you despicable cuntwaffle.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Zohar, if you didn't like the doctor's opinion so what. Just ignore it. He asked, you decided to answer, so what? Also, are you saying you are 100% morally free to do what you want because its the other person's responsibility to protect himself? In fact, I understand that both people are responsible. But if you are comfortable and content with your choices and your actions are legal where you are doing them, then your doctors opinion is just that, an opinion. As would be our opinions here. Sounds like you already made up your mind so why ask?

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ďFrom each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needĒ 1875 K Marx

Zohar is the guy who had a meltdown when he found out his GP had documented his HIV status as HIV positive . He is also the guy that has a problem with people who say they are HIV negative if they have had sex since their last HIV test . A huge number of his post are about disclosure or about criminalization , so we know where his head is at .

When his doctor tries to council him about safe sex practices he sees it as a lecture because of his arrogance . I have never seen an individual more in need of counseling than Zohar . I really hope you get the help you need before you hurt somebody .

I have to think there's a part of you that knows what you've been doing is wrong, and that's why you put up this post (under the guise of the whole how-dare-he-judge-me doctor story). And it is. Just wrong, Wrong, WRONG. There's crap that goes on in the world, but why would you want to add to it? Get a grip, and start doing yourself and others some good.

.... As much as I accept my responsibility in being positive, I so wish my infector had told me he had HIV....and he knew he did, and never told me. I have long since moved on, but when I read posts from people who are positive, know their status and still go out there and have unprotected sex with someone without disclosing, it brings back bad memories and makes me sway towards supporting criminalization of HIV transmission for cases like this.I hate the fact that you are trying to justify what you are doing to others. Its just so so WRONG! Karry

You realize of course that U/D in blood does not necessarily equal U/D in semen, right?

As much as I am VEHEMENTLY against the criminalization of HIV infection, I rather think that exposing people to HIV without their informed consent is the hallmark of a sociopath.

Thanks for making it that much worse for the rest of us out here, passing along the stigma of HIV, you despicable cuntwaffle.

*like*

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

I know that doctors see it as their job to 'educate' about safer sex, but it irks me that they're peddling the view that it's the one (diagnosed) with HIV that has to take responsibility. And it did make me think I'd probably just lie in future to avoid being lectured.

It's a 50/50 responsability. Except in rape cases, the two parties agree to lay down. That doesn't exclude you of your responsability: You should have insisted on wearing condoms/ and or disclose your status, regardless what the other does. Some people don't disclose but insist on protection, others disclose beforehand and it's valid too. Hopefully you didn't infect your last partners....but I advise you to think again what you're doing.

It's horribly offensive that someone would choose to have unprotected penetrative sex, knowing they are HIV+ and not disclose this. You know your status and it's imperative you take responsibility for your side of the deal.

Even if the other person doesn't ask, it's incredibly selfish to not consider the person you are having sex with.

It suggests you are just willing to use these, "strangers" with no consideration of how you may affect/infect them and the impact it may have on them if you pass on the virus to these people.

We live in a world that increasingly promotes freedom, free from moral judgement and discrimination. In this case, this is not only a moral issue but a legal issue in many places.

If you are going to take advantage of all these freedoms you no doubt enjoy, then man up and take responsibility for what you are doing.

The conversation I had with my doctor regarded sex I'd had in a sex club. I'm actually not a huge fan of penetrative sex, and can, most of the time take or leave it. What's happened in this club is that when I've been making out with guys they've, to be blunt, put my dick in their ass. I nearly always just pull straight out since, like I say, I'm not fussed about penetrative sex, but when I've done so, they put it back inside them, knowing FULL well that I'm not wearing a condom.

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''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

@Zohar, for your doc ask him if he considers meds and condoms equal in terms of preventing HIV transmission. If he says no, then he needs to go to school. Clearly, the question of other STIs comes into play without condoms, but I am not sure this is as significant as people make out, likewise the detectable in semen point in relation to well-treated HIV.

People who go to sex clubs have already decided what they want to do and hear/not hear. In my experience there's not a lot of talking going on. The "real choice" point is somewhat after the fact. Esp in London in a sex club.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

The ones who don't know their status and are poz are the ones spreading it the most. If you are u/d chances are you won't spread it. Try finding a gay doctor who is not an old status quo guy, that's what I did.

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Pray God you can copeI know you have a little life in you yet. I know you have a lot of strength left.

Try finding a gay doctor who is not an old status quo guy, that's what I did.

If I had a doctor who was cool with me topping guys without condoms I would be finding another doctor .

I find some of the replies here shocking . If you have ever held somebody while they are dieing of Aids I think you may not be so casual with your advice . Guess what , you are HIV positive now and you have a responsibility not to pass on this virus on to somebody else .

Something good could come from this thread but right now I'm embarrassed to be keeping company with some of you . The whole world has the ability to read this forum and I'm not happy with the impression some of you are showing for all to see . I'm truly upset about this .

It's interesting.... in the criminalization threads, we hear folks say that it is really ONLY the poz person's responsibility to protect the poor unwitting neg person from getting infected. Most folks on here will counter (correctly, IMO) that both have a role.Going into a sex club and topping someone raw, when you know you are poz is now turning ALL the responsibility from the POZ guy (in the criminalization cases) to the neg guy. The same response for both is required (again, IMO) -- BOTH have a responsibility. Zohar has completely dismissed his responsibility here. That may not be "criminal" -- unless both go to jail -- but it is a good way to tell the type of self-centeredness that exists in his head - so long as he gets his, who the fuck cares. It kind of lines up with the health care debate here -- I got mine, so I don't give a rat's ass about you. I particularly found most rich -- his "victimhood" mentality -- "they put my penis in their ass" ---------- "twice". You poor helpless thing -- raped by a voracious bottom -- in public, no less.I'm with Jeff on this -- this is extremely sad. It is also why, at least here in the USA -- we will continue to be seen as criminals for having sex -- with or without disclosure.

Going into a sex club and topping someone raw, when you know you are poz is now turning ALL the responsibility from the POZ guy (in the criminalization cases) to the neg guy.

Sex clubs are the exclusive province of shameless hussies, and as such they already have AIDS. In fact, they have exactly 14 different strains of it. Plus chlamydia. As such they are not deserving of niceties such as HIV disclosure when barebacking.

note: this also applies to tricks found while bird watching at dusk in public parks

Thanks Mike, it seems some people are using self centered math when it comes to divvying up the percentages when it comes to shared responsibility .

Shared responsibility is not a 50/50 proposition , you are responsible for 100 % of your share of it . It doesent average down on your side when the other person isn't up to the 100% they share . Please don't come back with any lame ass excuse for what the other is or isn't doing .

I find some of the replies here shocking . If you have ever held somebody while they are dieing of Aids I think you may not be so casual with your advice . Guess what , you are HIV positive now and you have a responsibility not to pass on this virus on to somebody else .

I honestly think that this has something to do with it. The shit we saw in the 80s and 90s before HAART/AART cannot help but change a person. I don't talk about my experiences then an awful lot. Tends to put me in a darker place than I like. But maybe I should start talking more about that stuff in this forum, rather than LTS.

I dunno. Second-hand experience is still not experience.

But I agree with the rest of your statement. Some really disheartening stuff there. And of course it's the lazy-assed activists like us who have to reluctantly lurch off the couch and work to combat the stigma that the obviously FAR healthier pozzies are working so hard to perpetuate.

Christ, step up new folks. We need you. Otherwise we are simply growing, fertilizing, and reaping field after field of Zohar.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

The ones who don't know their status and are poz are the ones spreading it the most. If you are u/d chances are you won't spread it. Try finding a gay doctor who is not an old status quo guy, that's what I did.

Wow. I am not sure how to even approach this.

See, with GUYS, sex can be low, medium, or really really high risk, depending on what you are doing.

Even if you are U/D, if you are topping people without a condom, chances are good that at some point you will throw infectious seed into someone. That's verified.

If you are U/D and a bottom, or participating only in oral stuff, then I agree with you more or less, though I think it's a slippery slope to give yourself permission to be a sociopath.

Also, no doctor should be cool and nonchalant about a positive person having unprotected sex with negative partners without disclosure. The oath they take is pretty explicit about not doing harm, and silence in this case absolutely equals harm.

This isn't old school or new school bullshit. This is science. This is ethics.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Thanks JK , I can always count on you and a few others who are better at expressing whats at the heart of the matter . I wish I had said what you did when you wrote Christ, step up new folks. We need you. Nothing in my rant could have held more meaning than this simple nugget of truth .

I will not apologise for any thing I have said here because I believe it and own it , but I do wish I had said it better .

Thanks Jonathan and Jeff - as a "new folk" (relatively -- diagnosed 7 yrs ago), I will step up when I see insanity like this. But your history certainly does add much -- to me and, I hope, many others who need it.

Unfortunately, there will always be the self-centered folks who live to rationalize bad behavior.

If you start blaming people who lie, it's gonna be your own fault after you catch HIV.

It should be the poz person's responsibility, but we don't live in fantasy land. Plus there are people who don't know they have HIV and they are a much more dangerous group than the undetectable ones that lie.

and bottoms bent over for raw cocks in sex clubs know what they are getting into, and any poz top that sees them can assume they already are poz too.

Try living in the real world instead of a shell.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 05:25:53 PM by LiveWithIt »

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Pray God you can copeI know you have a little life in you yet. I know you have a lot of strength left.

Seroconverted: Early 80sTested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. Last regimen: Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky )Past regimensFun stuff (in the past): HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

If you start blaming people who lie, it's gonna be your own fault after you catch HIV.

It should be the poz person's responsibility, but we don't live in fantasy land. Plus there are people who don't know they have HIV and they are a much more dangerous group than the undetectable ones that lie.

and bottoms bent over for raw cocks in sex clubs know what they are getting into, and any poz top that sees them can assume they already are poz too.

Try living in the real world instead of a shell.

Well -- what you say is, in fact correct. However -- it doesn't mean that the poz person has no responsibility. You can't say ONLY the neg person is responsible or ONLY the poz person is. Both have total responsibility in this case (as Jeff so nicely put it) You can try and justify your behavior until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change it. You want to end stigma for HIV -- then stop acting like a petulant child who is trying to avoid responsibility. We have to own the responsibility of ending our virus with us.Just because someone is standing on the edge of a cliff, doesn't mean it's "OK" to push them off because they are responsible for their own welfare. That, my friend, is the real world.

Mike(who hopes folks can see that this is not about saying anyone is a "criminal" for this sort of irresponsibility)

If you start blaming people who lie, it's gonna be your own fault after you catch HIV.

It should be the poz person's responsibility, but we don't live in fantasy land. Plus there are people who don't know they have HIV and they are a much more dangerous group than the undetectable ones that lie.

and bottoms bent over for raw cocks in sex clubs know what they are getting into, and any poz top that sees them can assume they already are poz too.

Try living in the real world instead of a shell.

The responsibility for safer sex RESTS WITH BOTH NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE folks. There is no excuse for not protecting yourself (and others) by using condoms for all penetrative sex. To suggest that one party to consensual sex, has a greater obligation to ensure safe sex, is bullshit. My responsibility as a pozzie is to not pass my virus to others and it's my sole decision on how I achieve that objective. For negative folks, their sole objective should be to avoid getting HIV or a myriad of other STDs and they can meet that objective, by consistently using condoms for penetrative sex.

For anyone to suggest that just because someone is poz, that they have a "higher duty" in terms of disclosure, etc., is to relieve the other party of any responsibility for a consensual act. I lament the days when personal responsibility meant something to people. Today, it seems that some folks want to blame anyone but themselves, for failing to protect them from HIV.

We have known the truth about HIV transmission for almost 30 years now and the rules are pretty simple. However, there will always be those who seek to blame others for their own failings. If you don't have the spine to protect yourself, then be prepared to accept the consequences. But don't ever tell a pozzie, that their role in preventing infections, is greater than 50 percent. It takes two to contract HIV.

I'll also second JKs comment about poz people needing to be visible and heard. Before you know it, those of us who lived the early decades of the HIV plague, will be gone and with us, I fear the true horror of HIV may be forgotten. It's the reason why some of us LTS react so negatively to efforts to paint us as virus infecting parasites or having a greater duty to stop the spread of HIV.

Hmm...interesting. I definitely don't see myself as 'victim' when bottoms insert my raw dick in their ass. Not sure where that idea came from.

And Newt is correct. There's very little discussion going on in sex clubs. However, recently, I struck up conversation with one of the aforementioned bottoms and..... whaddyaknow.... he was positive too.

Much of the indignation in this thread appears to be based on the notion that a 'poz' person is willfully infecting someone who's negative but, in reality, I don't think the issue is as black and white as that.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 09:11:44 PM by Zohar »

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''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

Just because someone is standing on the edge of a cliff, doesn't mean it's "OK" to push them off because they are responsible for their own welfare. That, my friend, is the real world.

This is a false analogy. If you push someone off a cliff then they are almost certain to die. However, if someone with HIV has unprotected sex with someone who is negative, there is only a possibility that the person will go on to become infected. And that possibility isn't even particularly high.

Think back to when you were negative; if you had to choose, would you rather be pushed off a cliff, or take a load from someone with HIV?

« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 09:04:25 PM by Zohar »

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''Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.''

My partner and I both LIE our asses off at the redundant "safe sex" questions that come at the end of each doctors visit. We are monogamous and we are barebacking...taking each others loads...the whole 9 yards!

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Diagnosed in May of 2010 with teh AIDS.

PCP Pneumonia . CD4 8 . VL 500,000

TRIUMEQ - VALTREX - FLUOXETINE - FENOFIBRATE - PRAVASTATIN - CIALIS

Numbers consistent since 12/2010 - VL has remained undetectable and CD4 is anywhere from 275-325

I went to a bathouse last week for the first time since my diagnosis. I didn't have any bare sex, I topped a few guys with condom. What is interesting from a personal perspective is that I have warts on my penis, and I did not let a soul go down on me. Quite a few guys wanted to and I pushed them away. This included some visible tweaked out guys who were dying to give oral and I still couldn't let them do it. Let me make this clear that this example has nothing to do with responsibility, this is strictly a moral issue. IT IS MY MORAL ISSUE, no one else's and I will never project my morality onto others.

Maybe I'm the only one who won't certainly sleep if I infected anyone with this virus. Fortunately, I don't have that burden and I never willYou're not alone, Raf. I am hoping there are more HIV pos people out there who believe that it is wrong to put other people's lives at risk of having to live the "wonderfully positive life we bitch about" , by not disclosing while having unsafe sex.

Personally, I am disturbed that any HIV pos individual not only engages in unprotected sex with their partners, but finds the need to justify their actions. It does not change the act: you're still KNOWINGLY putting someone's life at risk.

This is a false analogy. If you push someone off a cliff then they are almost certain to die. However, if someone with HIV has unprotected sex with someone who is negative, there is only a possibility that the person will go on to become infected. And that possibility isn't even particularly high.

Think back to when you were negative; if you had to choose, would you rather be pushed off a cliff, or take a load from someone with HIV?

You truly are a horrible person if you are nitpicking an analogy like this. my point was....... Just because someone is WILLING to put themself at risk does not make it OK for you to oblige them. Not a hard concept for anyone who cares for anyone besides themself.

You truly are a horrible person if you are nitpicking an analogy like this. my point was....... Just because someone is WILLING to put themself at risk does not make it OK for you to oblige them. Not a hard concept for anyone who cares for anyone besides themself.

M

He's not a horrible person. It was the worst analogy ever and doesn't apply to this situation.

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Pray God you can copeI know you have a little life in you yet. I know you have a lot of strength left.

That is why BOTH people share responsibility to stop infections. You don't seem to get that this isn't an either or question.

M

I know both share responsibilities, but only the neg person can absolutely keep themselves neg. There are poz people out there that can infect people and sleep like a baby. What I'm saying is if you are a neg person do not trust what other people tell you and risk becoming poz. I'm not saying it should only be their responsibility but if they trust a stranger and become poz they have themselves to blame.

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Pray God you can copeI know you have a little life in you yet. I know you have a lot of strength left.

I know both share responsibilities, but only the neg person can absolutely keep themselves neg. There are poz people out there that can infect people and sleep like a baby. What I'm saying is if you are a neg person do not trust what other people tell you and risk becoming poz. I'm not saying it should only be their responsibility but if they trust a stranger and become poz they have themselves to blame.

I have not yet been told if cuntwaffle is a pejorative I am allowed to use.

If I am not, then please allow me to ask you if you would wish upon others the mind-wrenching angst placed upon yourself on knowing your own status.

Proceed as you wish.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Fascinating how some people try to quantify down to percentage point whose fault it is if someone acquires HIV. Also interesting that some people feel if there is no or little risk of transmission then there is no obligation to tell a sexual partner you have a sexually transmitted disease. I think a lie of omission in order to ensure someone will have sex with you, someone who might decide otherwise if he or she knew the truth, is not the behavior of an honest, empathetic or responsible person. The bottom line is I know I have HIV, I know most people who has sex with me would want to know that fact before having sex and not telling them would be putting my own needs and insecurities before their emotional well being. It's not all about disease transmission and blame, it is about living a life of integrity and considering the feelings of other people.

This is a false analogy. If you push someone off a cliff then they are almost certain to die. However, if someone with HIV has unprotected sex with someone who is negative, there is only a possibility that the person will go on to become infected. And that possibility isn't even particularly high.

Think back to when you were negative; if you had to choose, would you rather be pushed off a cliff, or take a load from someone with HIV?

Both parties are responsible for their reactions, and it includes you.

Even if you're not ok with disclosing, slipping on rubber is the bare essential in my mind. And it's not that difficult.

I try not to judge, but to me it is rather telling that you choose to split hairs in this analogy in a bid to justify your morally grey, if reprehensible behaviour rather than simply admit you made a mistake and that you would not repeat it.