Re: Purpose of life????

He means supposing a Calculus text fell into hands of some neanderthals. Until they developed sufficiently they could not understand or make any sense of it. Modern man can now read ancient texts with a new understanding of them.

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

Re: Purpose of life????

These thing are not dicovered after science.Science is "a way" to proove you the things wich are wrote into it.If you want to proof something,you have to use the thing that others understand,in this case,science is the key....

Re: Purpose of life????

G_Einstein wrote:

I can;t uderstand why people prefere believing in "everything else" than in God??Is it so hard for you to accept that there is a Suprem Ruler (and you are not this one)?That you are simply a creature and He is the creator?????

If whe would be "separate god" why do we die???Gods don;t die!!!!!God is the one who was not created but who is the Creator.

You may says science here,science there.....but He is the one who created everything.Why the cosmos has ruled of how to function???Because He made "rules of univers" that we call science formulas and other thing.And maybe He want us to believe in it by not seeing It.He sends to every earlier nation revelation that people have changed for having a profit or any other reason......

I still can't understand the "logic" how human can believe in these things....

This is a very interesting post...What religion are you?

When you're old and your eyes are dim, There ain't no old shep gonna happen again We'll still go walking down country lanes, I'll sing the same old song Hear me call your name

Re: Purpose of life????

I realy enjoy discussing this...my uncle had said that What if some stories in bible are not actual events, but storys that are just that. Stories. Told to teach lessons, not a history book, but an 'instruction manual', if you will. if someone where to play a video game and struggle thru it, and finnaly beat it, and someone else were to beat that same game in half as much time, but use a strategy guide, who has really mastered the game? what im saying is that this life is a game, a test, and if we just run for help every time we get to a boss, what will we learn? I think the purpose of life is to live life to the fullest within the boundary's of God(or whatever you prefer to call Him), and take the proper measures to prepare your self to be judged before God.

Last edited by S.G. Shredmaster (2010-04-02 12:04:01)

When you're old and your eyes are dim, There ain't no old shep gonna happen again We'll still go walking down country lanes, I'll sing the same old song Hear me call your name

Re: Purpose of life????

Sure I see what you're saying about astronauts but what about this?Going into spacr is pretty huge, so i would think tjat they would need some spiritual support, as well all the physical training that helps them withstand high gforce, no normal toilets,etc. It can be used as a metaphor. Theyre put through training like we are put thru our daily trials, aand it comes out at the end,and it shows how hard we've worked in order to dwell with God, or in the astronaauts case, complete whatever mission they have and come back with good results. I realy like your B.I.B.L.E. acronym, it makes sense.

When you're old and your eyes are dim, There ain't no old shep gonna happen again We'll still go walking down country lanes, I'll sing the same old song Hear me call your name

Re: Purpose of life????

I am a muslim.

Exactly.......Life is a "game",a challenge that we have to face up and to be the winner.......I know that there are a lot of words circulating about islam,terrorism and things like that,but one thing that all of us needs to know,is that a TRUE muslim can not kill an innocent person.God says:"If someone of you kills an innocent person,it is like killing the entire humanity"....all those stories about islam and terrorism have been cretaed by some persones to make a bad image of islam.About science,in islam,science is connected with the everyday life...God says and the began of the Curan:"Read...Read in the name of your God" and somewhere else "If you would like the "knowleadge" as you like the beauty,there wouldn't be ant ihnorent on earth" (sorry for my english)

At the beginnig,I was muslim just by name,but one night we started to discuss the differences between islam and christianity with my cousin,(we lived in switzerland so we had contact with christianity) and the nest days we tried to get more information about islam.

As I always liked science,I started to search "science" in islam,and gradually,I felt that it was the right way for me....and from then,I'm trying to be a good muslim.......

I don't says that chrisitanity is a fals religion,in contrary,islam and christianity are very connected,because we worship the same God,it's just that we have some fondamental diferences,but we have to respect each other,no matter religion or something else...that is what islam teaches....respect for everyone...not killing people like thing that tv shows....I don't say that these people haven't killed poeple,but those poeple can not be muslim....It's like if \i had a bomb,and before exploding I would dress like a person of X religion and blame that religion for violence.....

Re: Purpose of life????

We can say that religions are continuity of Holy revelation...Because there isOne God,and He sent messengers to humanity,but people have changed the thing and the revelation,and made for each messeng one religion..That's why God send the Quran and He says "If the entire humanity would try to make a book like this,they couldn;t" and He says that the Quran is protected by Him.Muhammed(peace be upon him) was the last messenger for the humanity....there will not be other revelation...the Quran explai ns the signs of the end of the world,the little one,and the biggest...and also explains how the univers will take end...there are a lot of things that we can learn from it...

Jesus was also a messenger,He was born by a woman wich hd no intercouse with man,and Allah says in the Quran"the case of creating Jesus is like Adam".It needs just to say "be" and it will...that's the power of God

Re: Purpose of life????

G_Einstein wrote:

I can;t uderstand why people prefere believing in "everything else" than in God??Is it so hard for you to accept that there is a Suprem Ruler (and you are not this one)?That you are simply a creature and He is the creator?????

By stating you don't understand, I assume you wish to understand. The first thing is that stating there is a supreme ruler does not make it so. Believing there is a supreme ruler does not make it so. Feeling there is a supreme ruler does not make it so.

I believe in the observable universe. Certainly there are things out there we can't observe. But by definition, I have no idea what they are, so I can't say anything about them. This seems to me to be completely common sense.

I believe in the principles of science. Why? Because they have time and time again been shown to be good principles. This isn't faith at all. If science did not enjoy the success we observe, I would not believe in the principles of science. If there is ever a method of learning which can show it is better than that of science, I will without hesitation switch to that method. Again, this seems to me to be common sense: Believe in the thing which has shown itself to be good.

I have never observed any supernatural phenomenon, a god or otherwise. I have never heard of any evidence, based in the principles of science, suggesting such phenomenon. Using the principles of science, I find no evidence and therefore will not accept the conclusion.

So what about this do you not understand?

"In the real world, this would be a problem. But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist. So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Re: Purpose of life????

First, let me say that my comments do not support or condemn anyone's faith or belief.

Before you use intellectual arguments to batter down someone's beliefs, be prepared to assume the responsiblility of replacing them with something better.

Ricky wrote:

Religious fanatics (of all faiths) tend to believe the people they kill are not innocent.

True. Men kill for all reasons, patriotism, religion, economics, race, greed and sport. Since it might be illogical to assume all those reasons are equally valid, some then are better than others.

Ricky wrote:

I have never observed any supernatural phenomenon, a god or otherwise. I have never heard of any evidence, based in the principles of science, suggesting such phenomenon. Using the principles of science, I find no evidence and therefore will not accept the conclusion.

"I find that you learn absolutely nothing about someone's belief if you ask them 'Do you believe in God?' and they say yes or no. You have to specify which of the countless kinds of God you have in mind."

Check these out, some pretty smart people believe in a God. Might be wise to emulate them.

Re: Purpose of life????

bobby, before I respond to your post, it seems you are missing the entire point of mine. G_Einstein said he didn't understand the unbelievers, and my post was to help him understand. That you responded "It might be better to be a believer" suggests to me you didn't catch this. But you've opened the door, and so I will respond to your post, even though I believe it to be entirely off topic from what I posted.

Einstein? He was at best an agnostic. I would have to look up the others to verify (besides Newton of course), but it's a pointless task anyways. It is nothing but a direct appeal to authority, one which I won't have any part in.

Check these out, some pretty smart people believe in a God. Might be wise to emulate them.

Ignoring the appeal to authority (and the fact that emulation is anything but wise), you really think belief in God is much of a choice? That I can wake up one day and decide that I believe in a god because I want to? I don't think so...

"In the real world, this would be a problem. But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist. So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Re: Purpose of life????

Do you care to predict what you will be like in 2050? You just wake up one day and you have changed. That's all it takes.

So your statement now has become, "One day, you might believe in a god." Umm, so what? One day I might become a paranoid schizophrenic. One day I might be an astronaut. It isn't that much of a statement, really.

"In the real world, this would be a problem. But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist. So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Re: Purpose of life????

Ever change your mind about anything? How long did it take? Just trying to show that all you have to do is want to. Doesn't require anything more.

Certainly. But it wasn't because I sat there wanting to change my mind. My mind will change whether I will it to or not. Indeed, willing my mind to change will have no effect at all.

Your Einstein quote, "Religion without science is lame and science without religion is blind," is entirely meaningless without its context.

But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Upon reading the context, it's clear that Einstein was not talking about religion or faith in the way a theist would. On the other hand:

I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

Einstein expressed his passion for science using religion as a metaphor. This is why so many people are mistaken about his (lack of) faith. But it all doesn't matter any way. What Einstein thinks about God is no more important than what he thought about the TV. Understanding his reasoning is where the value is at. There is no point in solely understanding his conclusion.

"In the real world, this would be a problem. But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist. So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Re: Purpose of life????

It's not the point just to wake up and say "I believe in God"Believing is something more than saying it,it's believing by heart.........Here ares some piece of the Quran wich are much older than your and my science.......

"Do not the unbelievers know that the heavens and earth have been one? Then We divided and made from water every living thing! Do they still not believe?"(El-Enbija 30)

Have you heard about the theory than someday the comso will be cold and some matiers will reunite them and make another explosion??????

"The same way We started the first creation,we will repeat it" (Enbija,104)

About the expannsion of the universe wich was prooved in 1929 I think

"We have built the heaven with our power, and We extend it"(Edh-Dharijat,47)

The latest theory in astronomy in the 90's say that the universe will end by explosion or by contraction

"That Day,We will furl the heavin like the paper of a book.The same way We started the first creation,We will repaet it.That's Our promise .And We will do it" (Edh-Dhraijat,47)

Einstein has prooved that the light in the universe do not make a stright line,it makes a circular line wich will be back in the opossite direction after milions of yera.If we set the position of the light in a cross way,it will be back much more weak as from the beginning"

"Even if We opened a door and they would climb through it, they will surely say that "our eyes have been distracted, even we have benn bewitched""(El-Hixhr,14-15)

"He has created seven heavens one above the other.You can not find in the creation of the Merciful any defection.Look up:do you see any cracks?(El-Mulk,3)

These are just a piece of thing that I have in my book about the science and Islam.

You know,it;s not my job to make you believe........You can not say "I have never heard.......",it's you that has to find the answer,do not expect someone someday will be at your door and say "Hey here are the facts!!!!!!" You have to search and search!!!! It's like the french proverb "Qui cherche,trouve" "Who looks after soemthing,will find it"

Then when you have made you search,you can say I Belive or I don't believe....just sitting at home and saying I don't believe doesn't mean anything......

At the begginig I was mostly like you.....I believed in God of course,but I wasn;t interested to know something else because while I was living in Switzerland,nobody said to me that the Bible has soemthing interesting about science!!!!!(I didn't knew anything that time about islam,except the prayers and there is one God"

As a muslim,I believe that the Bible is the word of God,but only the true Bible which now doesn;t exist.That's why God sent the Quran,the last and unchangeable revelation for the human kind........

Re: Purpose of life????

Then when you have made you search,you can say I Belive or I don't believe....just sitting at home and saying I don't believe doesn't mean anything......

Looks as if you didn't understand a single part of my post. Oh well, I tried.

G_Einstein, what you're doing with the quotes above is very wrong. To be brief:

[align=center]Anyone can predict that which has already happened.[/align]

Let me give you an example, a writing of Nostradamus. This is where he "predicted" the rise of the Nazi party.

Beasts ferocious with hunger will cross the rivers,The greater part of the battlefield will be against Hister.Into a cage of iron will the great one be drawn,When the child of Germany observes nothing.

Now I assume you don't take Nostradamus as being a prophet. Why? Just like you claim the Koran predicted discoveries of science, he predicted the Nazi invasion of France, and pretty much got the name of Hitler right. This is precisely the evidence in the Koran you're giving. If you accept one as evidence, you must accept both.

The problem is that you are both fitting the text to the facts. If you could use the Koran to predict the discovery of scientific theories, then you would absolutely have something. But there is absolutely no way you can go from, "We have built the heaven with our power, and We extend it" to "The space which composes our universe is expanding."

In this same sense, no one can use Nostradamus to predict future events. They can only take events that have already happened, and fit them to the writings. Christians do this all the time as well, and so do Jews. That you can do it with the Koran is really nothing special. Give me an event predicted from the Koran that hasn't already happened, and then I'll be interested.

"In the real world, this would be a problem. But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist. So we'll go ahead and do that now..."