This is a discussion on $50 NLHEFull Ring: Pkt Q's in SB - UTG 4x the BB raise from 452BB stack & a flat in M within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; No stats on villain(s).
My 1st thought when I seen UTG raise 4x the BB when he's sittin' w/ 452 big blinds, was that he

My 1st thought when I seen UTG raise 4x the BB when he's sittin' w/ 452 big blinds, was that he was just being a bully & I was going to re-pop it when/if it folded to me. But, some1 from MP flat & I started to think...what next?

If raising was the best move here, then I made a mistake. I flat here & seen a flop hoping for no kings or aces & intending to bet out on the flop if board wasn't too scary. My flop bet wasn't the best size but I figured 1/2 pot would suffice.

Any one else prefer c/r the flop after we flat over the donk bet?
We have a good relative postion on original raiser and we should probably expect a cbet on this board a lot+ its the kinda a board a lot of people are gonna float if there Mp1 imo.
And random spazzes from small-mid PPs "Who haz to pars" is allways nice.

Thought?

#11

28th September 2010, 7:59 AM

bgomez89 [3,050]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

Fold pre obv

#12

28th September 2010, 10:55 AM

baudib1 [6,604]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by S93

I 3bet this prf.

Any one else prefer c/r the flop after we flat over the donk bet?
We have a good relative postion on original raiser and we should probably expect a cbet on this board a lot+ its the kinda a board a lot of people are gonna float if there Mp1 imo.
And random spazzes from small-mid PPs "Who haz to pars" is allways nice.

Thought?

No I'd lead QQ here. C-R is slightly thinnish, what hands are you getting value from, JJ or Tx maybe?

Yea, this was the 1st hand that I had ever played w/ either of them (UTG & MP1). I would think that a random hand prediction would be the same as a range of hands prediction being no HH of either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

crazy russians and their logical thinking

HaHa

Quote:

Originally Posted by S93

I 3bet this prf.

Any one else prefer c/r the flop after we flat over the donk bet?
We have a good relative postion on original raiser and we should probably expect a cbet on this board a lot+ its the kinda a board a lot of people are gonna float if there Mp1 imo.
And random spazzes from small-mid PPs "Who haz to pars" is allways nice.

Thought?

On this kind of board, if I were to check here (being I'm OOP) & get a bet from OR, I'd have no idea where I was @. If I check & let's say OR puts out a bet of $4+, & MP1 floats it, what do I do then? I could raise but what good would that do when they would be priced in to call w/ w/e draw(s) they might have. That's why I lead out. I understand now that the best play would be to 3-bet pre ITS.

On this kind of board, if I were to check here (being I'm OOP) & get a bet from OR, I'd have no idea where I was @. If I check & let's say OR puts out a bet of $4+, & MP1 floats it, what do I do then? I could raise but what good would that do when they would be priced in to call w/ w/e draw(s) they might have. That's why I lead out. I understand now that the best play would be to 3-bet pre ITS.

Not saying donking here is wrong or that c/r is better but im not sure I understand your thought process here.
The draws that are out there arnt very strong and u dont want to c/r because it will price them in? So u donīt want to stack off vs weak draws?

He had the 7d8d & the board read 10c9h9dAd2h. 17 outs I believe. Not sure that is a weak draw but I know what you mean.

I may have played this WAY too passively but I'm a nit sometimes

#16

28th September 2010, 10:50 PM

baudib1 [6,604]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: NLHE

This is part of the reason why you reraise preflop...for value. build the pot bigger, making your flop lead bigger. that said, if the pot is bigger you may have to face more difficult decisions on later streets, but when you're at the top of your range you want more money in the pot and it's harder to extract value postflop OOP.

This is part of the reason why you reraise preflop...for value. build the pot bigger, making your flop lead bigger. that said, if the pot is bigger you may have to face more difficult decisions on later streets, but when you're at the top of your range you want more money in the pot and it's harder to extract value postflop OOP.

Makes total sense, I obviously never thought about it like that. In understanding what you said, I'm 3-betting next time ITS.

#18

29th September 2010, 3:35 AM

baudib1 [6,604]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: NLHE

It also helps define ranges.

You said you put your opponent on AT. If you reraise the dynamics of the hand changes dramatically -- although in this case we have no stats, when we have better information (VPIP, fold to 3-bet percentage will tell us what kind of range he is calling preflop and what he's continuing with) and know how his range plays against the board texture and put him on a range of hands instead of randomly guessing.

do you think you fare well against the range an unknown FR player plays for stacks from UTG?

FWIW, the biggest winners at 100nl FR at the moment (QQ-quads-QQ and Paketa7) typically 3bet around 3% overall. I'm pretty sure they both flat with QQ here and so would I. I would 3bet it at 6max, I would 3bet it at 10nl FR, I would 3bet it at 400nl FR, but I really don't think that's the right play at 50nl FR.

#23

29th September 2010, 12:36 PM

baudib1 [6,604]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: NLHE

Belgo I think it's fair to say the big stack is opening a wider range UTG and continuing to a 3-bet more than most typical FR nits here.

do you think you fare well against the range an unknown FR player plays for stacks from UTG?

FWIW, the biggest winners at 100nl FR at the moment (QQ-quads-QQ and Paketa7) typically 3bet around 3% overall. I'm pretty sure they both flat with QQ here and so would I. I would 3bet it at 6max, I would 3bet it at 10nl FR, I would 3bet it at 400nl FR, but I really don't think that's the right play at 50nl FR.

3% = AA KK QQ JJ AK (3.01%)

That shows that sound ABC poker beats LAG crap and fancy plays. I know I get sick to my stomach when I try to 3bet AQ, KQs & 99 and get called.

I constantly struggle with the idea of flatting QQ vs 3bet when OOP. I sometimes think it is the right thing to do and sometimes I feel like it would be smarter to just fold but have had a hard time laying down Queens to a raise. Against a 3% range you are:

Crushed by AA KK
tied with QQ AK
ahead of JJ

AA & KK make up only 29% of that range so I guess when flatting I assume a flop without an A or K means a strong c-bet? Also what if the A or K does hit, that is 70% of his range, so do you check/ fold risking a fold vs JJ or QQ?

Figuring out to how to play QQ OOP vs a re-raise is my demon it was first post on this forum. So if you have any theories on this please share.

Yeah, but their 3bet ranges vary immensely depending on their position and the position of the original raiser. It's probably AA or KK+ versus a tight UTG opener, and a huge range in BTN vs. CO open and blinds vs BTN open.

I think a lot of people fold JJ-,AK when they open UTG and get 3bet unless there's history. And I'm pretty sure that's correct of them given how little people typically 3bet at 50nl FR.

#34

29th September 2010, 3:16 PM

fx20736 [2,728]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BelgoSuisse

That makes no sense. If you 3bet those specific hands, you 3bet them for value because you expect to get called by worse. And then you have no reason to get sick when villain calls.

If the point of your 3bet is almost exclusively to get villain to fold, you should 3bet 72o and keep AQ, KQ and 99 in your flatting range.

I'm pretty new to Poker but aside from hitting a set with a 9 what kind of flop could you be happy with with against someone who flatted 3bets OOP? (Assuming it's a decent player)? Are you bluffing an Ace high flop? Also with AQ & KQ if you hit you could have kicker problems or be against a set.

I work very hard to try to avoid cold calling raises preflop and am more and more resistant to even calling a 3rd bet with equity (In other words I either 4bet/ shove AA/KK or fold). At first I would call on the button with small pp's/ scs/ weak suited Aces but it seemed like a big leak, esp when I got some of the flop but not alot so I stopped doing it. For a while I then mixed up some 3bet bluffs with suited connectors on the button, especially in multiway pots and actually hit a few monsters but overall that seemed like a leak too. Then I got to a point when I was flatting AA-JJ on the button if there was a raise and no callers but the times I stacked an opp with AA I would have got their money anyway because they had KK or QQ and probably would have 4bet or flat called my raise. So now I really try to play raise/ fold preflop. Maybe eventually I'll advance beyond that thinking but for now it makes decisions simpler. When OOP I 3bet with AA-JJ, AK. When IP I might add AQs, AJs, TT. Also I learned that playing AK from the blinds in a raised multiway pot is suicide. In fact without any pot equity I would fold QQ in a pot that was raised and re-raised before the action got to me.

I am trying to plug the leaks in my game, for 30k hands I lost about $ 130, largely because I was in the habit of shoving with nut flush draws or 4 bet/ shoving with QQ and sometimes JJ and not knowing when TPTK was beat. I have been playing break even to slightly plus poker for a little over 5k hands now and it seems like my natural tendency is to play tighter and tighter. (I now fold TT UTG most of the time.). The one thing that still really stings me at 5nl is the amount of calling stations with wildly high VPIPs who open limp, call off any raise and then hit monsters. Nothing like going to a river showdown vs a guy with 70 VP/ 5 PFR who is holding Aces or me deciding to play AJs hard against a 35/25 guy who actually had AK. I still haven't worked that out aside from the fact that when there is a limper in front I no longer will raise with the bottom of my range for that position (Say ATo from the button) as there is way too much slowplaying and limp/ re-raising going on.

do you fold to a 4bet or get it in? If the UTG opener shoves I fold (unless the flatter calls as well). If the flatter shoves, I call.

do you think you fare well against the range an unknown FR player plays for stacks from UTG? Notparticularly but I really don't want to play QQ OOP with lots of money left behind against 2 opponents. I think 3betting prevents me from making a bigger mistake postflop.

FWIW, the biggest winners at 100nl FR at the moment (QQ-quads-QQ and Paketa7) typically 3bet around 3% overall. I'm pretty sure they both flat with QQ here and so would I. I would 3bet it at 6max, I would 3bet it at 10nl FR, I would 3bet it at 400nl FR, but I really don't think that's the right play at 50nl FR.