Saturday, November 28, 2015

Here are my answers to the previous blog post. I hope they will help.

Questions for Dr.Joseph Shaw

In a previous blog post I commented on a report by Dr.Joseph Shaw1 who correctly says according to Scripture and Tradition Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation. He also is aware of confusion on this issue in the statements of the contemporary magisterium.

I see the same confusion in the position of the SSPX and traditionalists and I hope Joseph Shaw, a professor of theology and philosophy at Oxford University, England could comment on the following points. They are taken from the previous two posts on this blog.1 I have re-phrased them in the form of questions.

1. Can Dr.Joseph Shaw affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) in agreement with the traditional (Council of Trent) interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) which mentions no explicit exception ?Lionel: For me they are in agreement.2.Does he accept Feeneyism ( there are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus) or does he accept irrational Cushingism ( there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).This includes the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance) ?

Lionel: I accept Feeneyism.Cushingism is irrational, non traditional, heretical and an innovation.3.The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales proclaims Jesus without the necessity of formal entry into the Catholic Church for salvation. It is Jesus without the Catholic Church ?

Lionel: Yes.

4.Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II were Cushingites.For them Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong and Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Holy Office 1949 were correct.They interpreted all Church documents with Cushingism( there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS) ?Lionel: Yes.

5.Pope Pius XII could not say that all Jews in Boston need to formally convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.Neither could any of the popes later affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with the old ecclesiology?

Lionel: Yes.

6.According to Vatican Council II' the Church is the new people of God'(Nostra Aetate 4), Catholics are the new chosen people (Nostra Aetate 4),the elect ?

Lionel: Yes.

7.Jesus made a new and everlasting Covenant with his Supreme Sacrifice, it was for all, including the Jews ?

Lionel: Yes.

8.Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston.The second half of the Letter shows he assumed 'desire and longing for the baptism of water/implicit desire' and being saved in 'invincible ignorance ' as being 1) explicit cases, personally known and 2) they excluded the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?

'it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.'- Letter of the Holy Office 1949

'With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire...'- Letter of the Holy Office 1949Lionel: Yes.

9.So he concluded that these cases were relevant and exceptions to the dogma EENS?Lionel: Yes.

10. This was irrational.How could any human being see and know such a case in 1949? What is the name and surname of someone saved outside the Church in 1949?Lionel: It was irrational. We cannot physically see or know any exceptions in the present times.Neither was this possible in 1949.

11.The baptism of desire ( implicit desire and longing), baptism of blood ( a martyr who allegedly dies without the baptism of water) and being saved in invincible ignorance ( also allegedly without the baptism of water), all being personally known ( to be an exception to the dogma EENS) - are really irrelevant to the dogma EENS and Vatican Council II's Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentes 14 (which says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation) ?.Lionel: Yes, they are irrelevant.

12.So all in 2015 need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This includes Protestants and Orthodox Christians who do not have Catholic Faith (AG 7, LG 14) ?Lionel: Yes.

13.The new ecclesiology, the new theology, is irrational. Since it is based on Cushingism ?Lionel: Yes.

14. It is based on an objective and factual error, an empirical error?

Lionel: Yes. People in Heaven are not objectively visible on earth.

15. To offer the Traditional Latin Mass today, unlike in the past, the priest has to affirm Cushingism?Lionel: Yes.

16.At the time when the original Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was composed theology was based on Feeneyism i.e there were no known exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church ?Lionel: Yes.

17.Today the mandatum to teach theology, is given by the contemporary magisterium, only to those who reject Feeneyism and support a theology based on being able to see in the flesh, people in Heaven, who are there without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?

Lionel: Yes.

18.Pope Benedict affirmed Cushingism when he approved two theological papers of the International Theological Commission, 'Christianity and the World Religions' and 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized' ?

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

20.The Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II are Cushingite. Since they mention BOD, BOB and I.I, which are irrelevant to the old ecclesiology and the dogma EENS?Lionel: Yes.

21. For Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI BOD, BOB and I.I were 1) objectively visible and 2) and excluded the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. So they were mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ?Lionel: Yes.

22. They were made relevant in Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Mission, the Balamand Declaration, the theological papers of the ITC etc. Summorum Pontificum approved the old Mass - but, it was understood, with the new ecclesiology?

25.No where does Nostra Aetate say that Jews in general do not need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation?Lionel: Yes.

QUESTIONS RELATED THE RECONCILIATION OF THE SSPX

1. Would you agree that the reference in the Council of Trent to 'the desire theorof' refers to a hypothetical case?

Lionel: Yes. I would agree.

2. It could not be a reference to a formally known case, someone personally known who has been saved as such?

Lionel: Yes. I agree.

3.If someone was saved as such he would be in Heaven and we humans could not know about it?

Lionel: Yes.

4.The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) and the Vatican could announce that the reference in the Council of Trent to implicit desire ( or the desire thereof ) 1 refers to a hypothetical case ?

Lionel: Yes they must do so.

5.The SSPX and the Vatican could announce that the baptism of desire (BOD) and baptism of blood (BOB) mentioned in the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of Pope Pius X a refer to hypothetical cases ?

Lionel: Yes

6. The SSPX and the Vatican must agree, and announce, that BOD and BOB being hypothetical for us could not be an exception to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) ?

Lionel: Yes

7.Since they are hypothetical cases they cannot be relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as interpreted by Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston and the St.Benedict Center ?

Lionel: Yes,agreed.

8.Hypothetical cases cannot be objective exceptions in 2015 to all needing to formally enter the Church for salvation.The Holy Office 1949 and the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing made an objective error?

Lionel: Yes they made an error.

9.Objectively for us humans, in our reality, there cannot be any case of BOD or BOB?

Lionel: Yes. They are known only to God.

10.The SSPX and the Vatican could announce that BOD, BOB and being saved in invincible ignorance (I.I) refer to salvation in Heaven of hypothetical cases . Similarly Lumen Gentium 16, Lumen Gentium 8, Unitatitis Redintigratio 3 and Nostra Aetate 2 in Vatican Council II refer to salvation in Heaven known only to God ?

Lionel: Yes

11. Since salvation in Heaven is not visible to us, defacto and in theory, it cannot be an explicit exception, for us human beings, to the dogmatic teaching on all needing to formally enter the Church in 2015.It's a non-issue ?

Lionel: Yes.

12.All need faith and baptism for salvation and we cannot see , know or meet an exception on planet earth.So there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center?

Lionel: Yes.

13.There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict all needing faith and baptism for salvation (AG 7, LG 14) ?

Lionel: Yes.

14.The reference to BOD and BOB in Vatican Council II are to possibilities known only to God and always unknown to us ?

Lionel: Yes.

15.They would also be followed by the baptism of water since this is the dogmatic teaching of EENS?

Lionel: Yes.

16.There are no exceptions to EENS in Vatican Council II, since hypothetical cases cannot be exceptions, so the Catholic Church's traditional ecclesiology has not changed?

Lionel: Yes it has not changed according to magisterial texts when the irrational premise ( visible cases in Heaven of non Catholics saved without the baptism of water) and irrational inference ( these cases are visible, seen in the flesh exceptions to the dogma EENS), is avoided.

17.There is no change in the Church's traditional teaching on other religions and ecumenism?

Lionel: Yes.There is no change. The change came with the use of the irrational premise and inference. The distinction between what is invisible and visible, hypothtetical and objective was not made.

18.Since ecclesiology has not changed the Church's teachings on religious liberty and the Social Kingship of Christ the King over all political systems has not changed according to the text of Vatican Council II?

Lionel: Yes.There is no change since the strict interpretation of EENS is central to the other two concepts.Since outside the Church there is no salvation, all non Catholics need to convert formally into the Church. All need to be card carrying members of the Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell .Since outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation all political legislation must be based on the Social Kingship of Christ the King. There cannot be a separation of Church and State.

19.The magisterium ( teaching authority ) of the Church , according to the text of Church documents and the past Magisterium( and not the persons in the contemporary magisterium in 2015, the ecclesiastical hierarchy ) is still the same before and after Vatican Council II ?

In a previous blog post I commented on a report by Dr.Joseph Shaw1 who correctly says according to Scripture and Tradition Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation. He also is aware of confusion on this issue in the statements of the contemporary magisterium.

I see the same confusion in the position of the SSPX and traditionalists and I hope Joseph Shaw, a professor of theology and philosophy at Oxford University, England could comment on the following points. They are taken from the previous two posts on this blog.1 I have re-phrased them in the form of questions.

2.Does he accept Feeneyism ( there are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus) or does he accept irrational Cushingism ( there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).This includes the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance) ?3.The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales proclaims Jesus without the necessity of formal entry into the Catholic Church for salvation. It is Jesus without the Catholic Church ?

4.Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II were Cushingites.For them Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong and Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Holy Office 1949 were correct.They interpreted all Church documents with Cushingism( there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS) ?

5.Pope Pius XII could not say that all Jews in Boston need to formally convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.Neither could any of the popes later affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with the old ecclesiology?

6.According to Vatican Council II ' the Church is the new people of God'(Nostra Aetate 4), Catholics are the new chosen people (Nostra Aetate 4) , the elect ?

7.Jesus made a new and everlasting Covenant with his Supreme Sacrifice, it was for all, including the Jews ?8.Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston.The second half of the Letter shows he assumed 'desire and longing for the baptism of water/implicit desire' and being saved in 'invincible ignorance ' as being 1) explicit cases, personally known and 2) they excluded the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?

'it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.'- Letter of the Holy Office 1949

'With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire...'- Letter of the Holy Office 19499.So he concluded that these cases were relevant and exceptions to the dogma EENS?

10. This was irrational.How could any human being see and know such a case in 1949? What is the name and surname of someone saved outside the Church in 1949?

11.The baptism of desire ( implicit desire and longing), baptism of blood ( a martyr who allegedly dies without the baptism of water) and being saved in invincible ignorance ( also allegedly without the baptism of water), all being personally known ( to be an exception to the dogma EENS) - are really irrelevant to the dogma EENS and Vatican Council II's Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentes 14 (which says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation) ?.

12.So all in 2015 need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This includes Protestants and Orthodox Christians who do not have Catholic Faith (AG 7, LG 14) ?

13.The new ecclesiology, the new theology, is irrational. Since it is based on Cushingism ?

14. It is based on an objective and factual error, an empirical error?

15. To offer the Traditional Latin Mass today, unlike in the past, the priest has to affirm Cushingism?

16.At the time when the original Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was composed theology was based on Feeneyism i.e there are no known exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church ?

17.Today the mandatum to teach theology, is given by the contemporary magisterium, only to those who reject Feeneyism and support a theology based on being able to see in the flesh, people in Heaven, who are there without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?

18.Pope Benedict affirmed Cushingism when he approved two theological papers of the International Theological Commission, 'Christianity and the World Religions' and 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized' ?

ITC documents 'Christianity and the World Religions' and 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized ' need to be retracted or corrected: Richard Cushing flaw runs through

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

20.The Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II are Cushingite. Since they mention BOD, BOB and I.I, which are irrelevant to the old ecclesiology and the dogma EENS?

21. For Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI BOD,BOB and I.I were 1) objectively visible and 2) and excluded the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. So they were mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ?

22. They were made relevant in Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Mission, the Balamand Declaration, the theological papers of the ITC etc. Summorum Pontificum approved the old Mass - but, it was understood, with the new ecclesiology?

25.No where does Nostra Aetate say that Jews in general do not need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation?

QUESTIONS RELATED THE RECONCILIATION OF THE SSPX

1. Would you agree that the reference in the Council of Trent to 'the desire theorof' refers to a hypothetical case?

2. It could not be a reference to a formally known case, someone personally known who has been saved as such?

3.If someone was saved as such he would be in Heaven and we humans could not know about it?

4.The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) and the Vatican could announce that the reference in the Council of Trent to implicit desire ( or the desire thereof ) 1 refers to a hypothetical case.?

5.The SSPX and the Vatican could announce that the baptism of desire (BOD) and baptism of blood (BOB) mentioned in the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of Pope Pius X a refer to hypothetical cases ?

6. The SSPX and the Vatican must agree, and announce, that BOD and BOB being hypothetical for us could not be an exception to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) ?

7.Since they are hypothetical cases they cannot be relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as interpreted by Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston and the St.Benedict Center ?

8.Hypothetical cases cannot be objective exceptions in 2015 to all needing to formally enter the Church for salvation.The Holy Office 1949 and the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing made an objective error?

9.Objectively for us humans, in our reality, there cannot be any case of BOD or BOB?

10.The SSPX and the Vatican could announce that BOD, BOB and being saved in invincible ignorance (I.I) refer to salvation in Heaven of hypothetical cases . Similarly Lumen Gentium 16, Lumen Gentium 8, Unitatitis Redintigratio 3 and Nostra Aetate 2 in Vatican Council II refer to salvation in Heaven known only to God ?

11. Since salvation in Heaven is not visible to us, defacto and in theory, it cannot be an explicit exception, for us human beings, to the dogmatic teaching on all needing to formally enter the Church in 2015.It's a non-issue ?

12.All need faith and baptism for salvation and we cannot see , know or meet an exception on planet earth.So there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center?

13.There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict all needing faith and baptism for salvation (AG 7, LG 14).?

14.The reference to BOD and BOB in Vatican Council II are to possibilities known only to God and always unknown to us.?

15.They would also be followed by the baptism of water since this is the dogmatic teaching of EENS? 16.There are no exceptions to EENS in Vatican Council II, since hypothetical cases cannot be exceptions, so the Catholic Church's traditional ecclesiology has not changed?

17.There is no change in the Church's traditional teaching on other religions and ecumenism?

18.Since ecclesiology has not changed the Church's teachings on religious liberty and the Social Kingship of Christ the King over all political systems has not changed according to the text of Vatican Council II? 19.The magisterium ( teaching authority ) of the Church , according to the text of Church documents and the past Magisterium( and not the persons in the contemporary magisterium in 2015, the ecclesiastical hierarchy ) is still the same before and after Vatican Council II ?