After reading through a number of the posts by the Dans (Zellph and Durston) I thought I'd give the Sidewinder Ti-Tri with a modified Starlyte stove a go. Needless to say I'm very impressed with the functionality and packability of the combination. It still allows me to use alcohol for this set up and worry less about cleaning soot off my pot to pack it. Thanks Dans and the rest of the BPL community for the continued strive for excellence (and light weight)!

I tried the modified Starlyte Stove with my tried and true Ti-Tri Sidewinder cone sized for my 1.3L pot on a recent trip.

I don't have any measurable data or comparisons... I was too tired for any of that. But in ambient temps in the high 20s/low 30s (F), the stove/cone combo brought a liter of creek water that was just above freezing to a roiling boil in a reasonably short amount of time.

The smaller size of the stove itself and the ability to "save" the leftover fuel in the stove by putting the cap on it when finished are a couple of nice features.

One of these days I'll have to do a side-by-side comparison so that I can measure fuel consumption and boil times between the Starlyte and 12-10 stove.

After receiving my modified starlyte, I packed up and sold my 12-10 stove. With my caldera setup, I could never get 2 cups of water to boil with 1/2oz of alcohol with the 12-10. Not even under ideal conditions inside my apartment with room temperature water. It always took closer to .75oz of alky. With the modified starlyte, I was hitting 1/2 ounce boils consistently. Good enough in my book!

Its the Zpacks stuff sack for the Everneww 900 ml short wide pot (which I have). It was a tight fit though and use the caldera kitchen with that pot. I used the stuff sack for this pot because it packs up easier and allows me to keep all my kitchen items together. I can throw my fuel bottle in there, light-load towel, a spare esbit, etc. I like the extra space.

I've been getting good reviews from International users of the StarLyte burners with caps. Some are saying the regular StarLyte burner works well with a come also. I'll have to try it with my cone system.

Glad they are working well for everyone. Thanks for the positive feedback.

Konrad et al., Are you guys using a shim to lift the Starlyte burner closer to the bottom of the pot (so that the top-of-stove to the bottom-of-pot distance is the same as with the 12-10)

or,

are you using the starlyte as is on ground-level that results in a slightly greater stove-top to pot-bottom distance than the stock 12-10/CC set-up?

I remember something about the difference in height between the starlyte and 12/10 from a previous thread, but I'm assuming that since no one mentioned using a shim in the above posts that maybe the starlyte works just fine sitting on the ground and no need to modify the cone or use a shim under the stove.

I'm amazed about efficiency of this stove. I'm too boiled 0.5L with 0.5 fl. oz of alcohol in windy conditions. The stove is so light and small! Tested it's unspillability - it's great! I fill it at home and go hike! When it's full it gives enough hot water for 2x(meal + coffee/tea).

The only drawback is that it gets 12 minutes to boil. But for me it's not an issue.

Working now to make a platinum lighter for it. If it ,will succeed it would be best cooking system for me :)

Kevin, I'm in a slightly different position in that I'm using a Heineken keg caldera setup which uses a silicone wrist band to adjust how far up or down within the cone the keg can will sit. So I don't need to use a shim...I just lower my can. I would simply experiment with yours when you get it but yes I believe you will need a shim to truly optimize its performance

After much experimenting, I found that the band set at the height in the picture resulted in the best boil times using only .5oz of alky. I was getting rolling boils at 9.5mins, and effective burnouts around 12.5 mins (the flame would trickle on until past 14 mins, but it wasn't hot enough to do anything). The key is to leave the lid on and not check it unti you hear it boiling. Premature checking cut down my efficiency a lot and I would only getting bubbling boils before burnout. Hopefully you still have the red star left on your heiny pot...if not, I can bring out a ruler to give you the exact height.

Note: the black marker line on the tip of the red star merely marks the 2cup capacity point on my pot.

I like the Sidewinder Ti-Tri cone for fitting in the pot, but hate the tent stakes--the pot rarely sits properly on them, I get worried it's going to slip and tip. I was excited to try the Starlyte stove, and purchased the modified burner. Comparison with the 12-10 stove, without the stakes, in this configuration it is 6 minutes slower. The stove is also only 1 1/2 inches from the bottom of the pot.

I get the trade-off between speed and efficiency. If I want faster burn times, it's going to burn more fuel, but I do want faster times--it took 16 minutes for a full boil with the 12-10 stove with 1 L of water, and with the Starlyte it took 20 minutes. If I remove the ring on top of the stove that reduces the surface area, will it heat faster? It will cover more surface area of this wide, low pot. Also, what is the effect of having the pot lower than the optimum 2"? Without the stakes, the pot is completely enclosed in the wind screen.

I really want to use the Starlyte stove--I like the unspillable nature and the ability to snuff it and cap it. Also, it will fit in the pot--one less thing to pack. But faster burn times may be worth keeping the 12-10 and the stakes. Help!

If you are boiling 1 liter of water and looking for a fast time, an alcohol stove may not be the best way to go. When boiling 2 cups, the differences aren't that bad (8 verses 10). Double the volume, double the time - straight up physics. My 2 cents - Jon

Diane, I'll send you a regular StarLyte burner to compare the boil times. I have one that has a dent in the bottom caused during shipping to someone. The dent is just cosmetic. Burner should work fine.

I've been very happy with the alcohol stoves--I'm not looking to be the fastest diner in the campground. However, there was a noticeable difference between the two stoves. I'm just wondering if I could get a little faster burn time with some simple modifications.

If I *really* wanted speed, I get a cannister stove. Anything that uses pressurized gas scares me, though--when I had a Whisperlite, it was all I could do to light the stove. I don't light our BBQ at home if I can help it. Yes, I'm a wimp, a real pyrophobe. Somehow, the alcohol to me is easier and more friendly.

Wow Diane, what size/style pot are you using with the sidewinder? I have both the 600mL and the 900mL evernew short/wide and they both boil about 2 cups of water (relatively cold water) in about 7-9 mins. I use about a half ounce of denatured alcohol, the modified starlyte, no stakes.....

Garth, I have been using the modified Starlyte with my 0.9L Evernew pot & sidewinder. It really does work well together. I don't use the ti stakes to lift my pot, but instead just place the pot in as one would for Esbit, so that the lip of the pot is resting on the top of the cone. This will bring the bottom of the pot closer to the intended distance between pot & stove.

I will admit, it is not the quickest stove (as other's have mentioned), although, it is rather efficient. I would imagine that by going with the regular version of the Starlyte it would indeed slightly increase boil times, but would also slightly decrease fuel efficiency (although, I would wager it would still be perfectly acceptable).

I have read of at least one other person buying the moded version, giving it a try, and then they simply removed the ring that Dan has added to choke the flame a bit, which turned it into the regular version of the stove. (Be aware though, once the ring is removed, it may not be possible to replace it). OTOH, as inexpensive as they are, maybe you could pick up one of each. Then you can keep them both, or sell the one you didn't want...

Garth, I don't have actual numbers in front of me, but my results were approx 8 min boils vs. 10 min (reg vs modified) and a saving about of 10% fuel in exchange. I prefer the faster boils so I like the regular Starlyte, but priorities may differ. 20% faster or 10% more fuel efficient.

As a very satisfied long-time user of the Caldera Keg-F Stove System I was somehow intrigued by this post and ordered both StarLyte burners (original and modified) together with the "Flat Bottom Foster for Caldera Cone/StarLyte" that is only offered to BPL viewers.

What really intrigued me about the StarLyte is the ability of the stove to hold fuel - it would enable me to go on a weekend trip without having to take my fuel bottle.

Dan (Zelph) shipped my order right away, so I already had a chance to test them.

My tests showed that my three year old 12-10 stove from Trail Designs is the fastest to boil 2 cups of water. The modified StarLyte is the slowest. All three stoves get 2 cups of water to a boil with 15 ml of fuel in my kitchen using tap water. I decided to keep the modified StarLyte because it uses slightly less fuel - although it is slower than the original StarLyte. My thought is that this will ensure that I really get the number of complete burns I need for a weekend from one stove filling.

The Flat Bottom Foster for Caldera Cone/StarLyte is the lightest 2 cup capacity setup I'm aware of. When I got it I had to ask Dan how to put it into the Caldera Cone. He sent me this youtube link that shows how to do it.

While I really like the flat bottom can - especially for eating out of it - I don't like the fiddeling factor of getting the can in and out of the Caldera Cone. It is easy to do, but it is not for me.

Dan very kindly sent me a freebie unmodified stove (had a little dent which did not affect the performance) to play with. I'm happy to report that with my larger pot the *un*modified Starlyte burner worked much better, comparable to the 12-10 stove with the pot on its stakes. Without the stakes, the pot sits only 1 1/2 inches above the surface of the stove, but it seems to work ok.

I suppose I should test the Starlyte stove with the pot on the stakes, which would raise it up, but since I'm trying to eliminate the stakes from my kit, I don't care. I find the stakes make the set-up more precarious--if it were me, I'd drill the stake holes so that they come closer to the center of the cone, rather than out on the sides. My pot just barely seems to perch on the stakes, and is prone to tipping, as putting the stakes in makes the cone a little oval. I haven't ever used it in its wood-burning configuration, and quite frankly I'd be a little afraid to--the pot would sit much higher and would be much more precarious.

I just order a sidewinder and starlyte from Traildesigns. TD's only supply the modified starlyte but i read on one forum that it is possible to take out the ring on the modified and it goes back to a standard version. Is this correct?? Note i went this route as you were not taking international orders on your website. Rgds G

Hello Garth, yes it's easy to remove the reducing ring from the modified StarLyte. I have been taking International Orders for the StarLyte burners for a while now. They are on my store website. The Modified StarLyte only costs $1.00 more. Thanks Garth for your interest in the Trail Designs "Sidewinder" and the StarLyte. I recently purchased a "Sidewinder" made for a custom stainless steel pot. Rand at Trail Designs is a super nice guy to work with.

1) The original StarLyte with Lid. It doesn't have a pot support - as it is intended for use wit a Caldera Cone2) The Flat bottom Foster Can with lid - specifically made for use in Caldera Cone with StarLyte

Ring Romved Can still be used & Burner Distance and Soot
on 06/24/2013 09:46:52 MDT

I recently received a modified burner from Dan and removed the ring to get faster burn times. It removes very easily and I even managed to get it back in, for no other reason than to see if I could. I bent it a bit to do so but it works just as well.

Interestingly, the ring does not need to be reinserted to work effectively. Merely laying it on top works just fine. Practically, I am not sure if I will ever use it this way, but for now I keep it with the plastic lid and burner which potentially allows me to use it to increase fuel efficiency if ever required.

On another note, I have been using the Starlyte without a shim which puts it about 1.75" below the pot bottom. I am getting more soot on the pot than I did with the 12-10 from Trail Designs, using the same fuel, but sitting .5" higher.

1. Does anyone have any experience with reducing soot by putting the burner closer to the pot? 2. And, what distances are people finding optimal with the starlyte from the pot bottom? If recall the Dan Durston gave an optimal distance of 1.8 as getting the fastest burn times with the 12-10.

Like Bob, I find it difficult to read a graph without axis labels. It took me a minute. I see now that the Starlyte is maximally efficient (requiring 1.4 grams of fuel to boil) at 15 inches pot height. It is also clear that minimum time to boil (1.4 minutes) is achieved at a pot height of 13 inches. This is quite impressive. I think, given these data, a miniature version of this stove should be tested.

Also (perhaps Bob would agree), I find that the mixture of imperial (inches) and metric (grams) units in these graphs makes these data difficult to generalize. If you want just imperial I would recommend furlongs and drams, or if you want metric, decimeters and centigrams might be a good option.

Dan mentioned that the distance is between the stove and the bottom of the pot. I believe graph one is set up for Time as y axis and pot height in inches as x axis. If I understand this correctly, 2.3 inches is the optimal distance for faster boils.

I believe graph two shows alcohol used in ml as the y axis and pot height in inches as the x axis. If this is true, then between 1.4 and 1.8 inches seems to be the sweet spot for fuel economy.

Comparing the two, it seems that I would want my pot to sit 1.8 inches over the stove to achieve the best fuel economy while only waiting < an extra two minutes for boiling water than if I set the pot at two inches which would consume an extra 2.5 ml of fuel.

FWIW I just ordered the unnamed 600ml (looks like evernew copy) pot/sidewinder bundle from TD which comes with the starlyte stove so I'll be interested to see how it compares to what I've read here. I'm assuming the modified will work better with this smaller pot based on what I've read here? (edit I'm looking for maximum efficiency but less than 12 minute boil times)

Derrick White complained of soot. I'm interested to know what kind of alcohol he used.

Dan D, I've read through the thread and I'm sure I completely overlooked it but which pot were you using?

Hi Ian - See this thread for the fuel type: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=78555&skip_to_post=669840#669840

It is the closest thing I can get to ethanol in Canada and likely not ideal nor as efficient as other ethanol fuels more readily available in the US. For the purpose of this discussion I am using the same fuel with both stoves and only sooting on the starlyte.

I played around with it a bit yesterday and by reducing the distance from the top of the stove to to the bottom of the pot from 1.8" (Dan's optimal compromise distance) to 1.5", the sooting disappeared but my boil time increased dramatically. In fact .5 oz didn't bring 500ml (2 cups\16 ounces) of water to a galloping full boil. It burned out after 13 minutes, just before a full boil (steam was just beginning to pulse from under the lid.

Dan - thanks for the graph. Very informative. For those of you who can't read it, just play with your stove and the numbers become obvious. As for mixed measuring standards, I am laughing as we Canadians do it all the time ( I believe Dan is Canadian). Canada changed from the standard measuring system to metric in the 1970's and we tend to be accustomed to mixing the two together sometimes. Just use Google to convert to your preferred measures if necessary.

Everyone should note that, I understand at least, Dan has drilled more holes in the bottom of his cone to increase airflow. I have not done so (yet) and my numbers using similar fuels are not as good as Dan's: equally efficient but slower boil times.

EDIT: - My distance yesterday must have been 1.3", not 1.5". Now the outcome - no boil - makes more sense. I will retest sometime this week.

Okay here's updated graphs with some labels for you guys. There's more info on all of this in my original thread

Don't pay too much attention to the actual numbers, as they're dependant on a lot of test variables (water temp, water volume, fuel type, indoor/outdoor etc). It's the trends/relationships that are important (these tests were 500ml of 40F water inside using methanol). The main point is that there is a trade off between boil speed and fuel use, and if you find yourself disappointed with either of these measures you can likely improve it by changing the height. If overall efficiency is lacking then you may want to consider extra holes.

As mentioned, I did add some more holes (via hole punch) to the bottom perimeter of my cone, as discussed and shown in my original thread. You can simulate the results of this before committing by jacking up the cone on some stakes (laying flat on a table) to create a gap under the cone for extra air. You can shim up the stove as well to preserve the same stove:pot gap. Through a test like this, I found I could achieve faster boils with the extra air and fuel efficiency improved as well, so I think I was getting a better air fuel mix. This may partially explain my lack of soot and may explain why some prefer the restricted stove.

My pot is a tall/narrow 750ml pot (Evernew ECA278). I discuss the ideal attributes of a pot for this system in my original thread, however since that discussion I've also learned that you can create a really neat setup with a short/wide pot and a sidewinder cone. Here the pot rests directly on the cone instead of using my wrist band idea. The downsides are a loss of storage space inside the pot and no pot height adjustability, but the upside is no fiddle with the silcone band and wider pots tend to be more efficient.

I was inspired by Konrad when he placed his silicone band at the 2 cup mark on his Heineken pot(1st page of this thread) He's using the Caldera for Keg set-up. He said he was getting the best results ever.

Trail Designs is making me a Titanium Cone for a stainless steel pot that I took the liberty of forming a ridgeline at the 2 cup mark. The pot hold 3 cups with good head room so the water will not boil over. I'll be using the pot on wood fires so boil overs can occur fast if not watched. The cone is being made to be used with the Modified StarLyte burner. The pot weighs approx. 2 ounces and the lid is 1 ounce. I'll have a high heat resisting Viton tab as the lid lifter to prevent melting in wood fires.

Here is what the pot looks like with the ridgeline that takes the place of a silicone band. One less piece to worry about.

Yes, durable enough for lots of use. It will even be more durable when I put a ridgeline at the 3 cup mark. Wait till you see the removable handle that is dual purpose. My wife has already got claim to one of the pots in the photo :-)))) The ridges on a Foster pot really make it durable. The ridges on the thin stainless do the same. When I get one completed I'll send you one to have as your own. Never can have too many pot set-ups :-)

Cool thing about the handle is it doesn't get too hot to handle when flames from other stoves go up the side of the pot. You've seen time and time again where folks ask what to do to keep their handles from getting hot. It's strong enough to easily pour out 4 cups of water in either direction.

I could even punch holes in the cone to accommodate the 12-10. Raise it up to the proper height.

DanD, I got word from TD that my Ti Cone has been shipped. Whoo! can't wait to burn some wood with it. I know it's going to work great with alcohol and esbit. They made the cone to my specs to work with the Modified StarLyte. My adventures in woodburning says I can boil 4 cups of water on one load of wood in a container 4" in diameter by 5" tall. The cone will be 4" diameter to fit the pot and 4" tall. If I load it with twigs 2" long and verticle stack-em and then top light I should be able to get at least 2 cups to boil. I've made a stainless steel pot support that will sit on top of the cone. Perfect pot? .....only time will tell:-)

I got the Ti Cone on Friday and did 5 wood burn test in it yesterday. StarLyte and Esbit tests will begin tomorrow. The cone is custom made for the pot. Due to the ridgeline at the 2 cup level they could not make it to burn wood unless it was inverted. They furnished the Ti stakes and grate. While waiting for the cone to arrive I devised a top pot support using soft stainless steel that is easily flattened out and curved to fit inside the pot. The grate fits inside the pot lid and the cone fits inside the pot soft rolled in the vertical position. All 5 tests boiled 3 cups of water using vertical stacked and top lit wood one load per boil. No need to feed twigs.

You can see the heat coloration on the cone due to the stacking and burning in the vertical.

Yes James, it's a modified Light My Fire Grandpas Fire Fork. It's heavy gauge tempered stainless steel. The spring tension of it holds the handle tight in the bracket that is welded to the pot. I've used the handle attached to a branch to roast wieners and marshmallows. Today I'll use it to extend a pot full of water into a campfire. I'll leave it attached until the 3 cups of water come to a boil and then remove it via the long handle extension. I've boiled water in the pot on my kitchen stove with the handle attached. After boiling 3 cups of water the handle remains cool enough to pick up the pot and pour out the water. The flames of the stove went up the side of the pot about 1/2 inch. so there was plenty of heat going up to reach the handle. The handle has the ability to dissipate the heat quickly. The fire pot and fire fork handle should work well with all stoves.

I can make a dozen or so of the pots available to the public. Trail Designs can provide the cones.

I'll see if I can get a video put together in the next couple of days showing how the handle can be used and the cone set up to burn wood. Today I'll burn some 1/2 esbit cubes to see if I can get it to boil 2 cups under the cone. I was surprised to see the results of my alcohol tests. The ridgeline on the pot, the cone and use of the Modified StarLyte all came together well.

Yes, the handle comes off and packs inside with the fire grate, cone and burner. The grate stores inside the pot lid. The grate is inside a protective sleeve and the edges of the sleeve make it so that the little package sticks to the underside of the lid but is removed easily.

One other thing that I wanted was a cone that did not have a large opening at the top to allow heat and flames to exit to one side of the pot. Most pots have large handles that require the large opening in the cone. That opening focuses the heat right to the handles. One exception is the Cone for the Keg.

Looks like an excellent setup. I really like the size of the pot - probably 900ml if you count the space above the 3 cup line (which the manufacturers like Evernew do). My pot is 750ml and I wish it was a hair bigger like this since I can feasibly only get about 2.5 cups in.

Very cool how the handle is affixed. I like that it's removable.

Those are surprisingly fast boil times with the modified Starlyte. Have you tried a regular one to see how fast you can get and what the fuel penalty is?

You should get TD to offer the complete package on their site (or buy a bunch of cones from them and offer it on yours). Customers would love getting an amazing package like this with the simplicity and low shipping costs of getting it all in one place.

"One other thing that I wanted was a cone that did not have a large opening at the top to allow heat and flames to exit to one side of the pot."Yeah I certainly agree on this. One of the criteria for the pot I chose was handles way up high so I wouldn't need a cut out in my custom cone. TD was happy to oblige my no cutout request. Is there a reason for the small cutout at the bottom? I needed some extra holes in the bottom of my cone, so it looks like this cutout would achieve that while only making it more wind vulnerable on one direction.

Dan, I hav not tried a regular StarLyte burner under the cone. I tried Esbit today and was able to boil 3 cups with 1 full size cube. I've been putting the pot/lid and handle through some fire tests. Good day for a campfire. I'll be sending you a pot soon as you give me your address. I have some other info for you also in regards to the cone. I need further testing of the pot in the campfire to see how the bracket holds up to repeated lifting of the pot when it is full of water. So far, the ridgeline at the 3 cup level is preventing the thin pot from flexing when the handle lifts the pot.

dan y, what denatured alcohol are you using, if I remember right, you use sunnside or one of the high ethanol ones, right? Which would alter the results by roughly 15% over slx I believe re efficiency, at least in theory, still excellent efficiency/speed though.

I was testing some of the things dan d brought up here and realized all my tests were using a large fan above the stove to blow out the toxic gases through an open window, which creates a light breeze over the screen, I'm sure all screens with air holes all around the base will have the same exact problem, just to test an idea I popped a 1.5" or so high short screen in front of the air holes windward side, about 1" out from main screen (my air holes are low, so that would be about 1" above top of air slots, the results were spectacular, the degradation I'd seen due to the small breeze coming through the bottom holes vanished instantly, even with the fan turned up higher than normal.

For real world outside in the elements including wind burns this might be of interest as a trick to get around having holes facing the wind, I wasn't sure if it would work, but it does. Obviously the lower the air holes on the screen the better.

dan d, also, I noticed you are testing with 40F water, what I found studying the efficiency of alcohols fuel/stove / water boils was that if you roughly get 14ml to boil 70F water, then you can simply consider 1ml per 10F as what is required if you go below 70F, that makes it easy to translate your cold water numbers to 70F numbers, and for you to translate 70F numbers to your numbers. The energy required to bring water up 10F is a constant no matter what the water starting temp is. that is.

Odd Man Out Heptane essentially is gasoline/white gas. I didn't think that was advisable in an alcohol stove. Using white gas would eliminate a lot of the advantages of alcohol for me.

Also, I don't see the need for a bomb calorimeter. It seems that you are most interested in two parameters - the power and efficiency of the system. Power is how fast it heats the water and efficiency is how much heat is delivered to the water from a given amount of fuel. Often these two are at odds - powerful stoves tend to be inefficient and efficient ones have low power. Which is best for you depends on your own preferences.

The way that I have been able to measure both of these parameters in a single easy test is to use an amount of water and fuel so the water DOES NOT come to a full boil when the stove burns out (say 15 mL fuel and 750 mL of water). You will need to measure accurately and precisely to get good results. Measure the starting temperature of your water, light the stove, and measure the temperature of the water every 1/2 minute (I have a digital probe thermometer and a pot lid with a small hole so I can easily monitor the temperature during the test). Keep measuring until the flame goes out and the temperature starts to drop. Plot the time in minutes (x-axis) vs temp in deg C (y-axis). The points in the middle of the graph should be very linear. Do a linear regression of these points to get a slope for the line. Also subtract the minimum temperature from the maximum temperature to get a change of temperature (delta T). All these calculations can be easily programed into a spreadsheet.

The power of your system (in Watts) is the slope of the line (degC/min) times the volume of water (in mL) divided by 14.3414.34 is a combination of conversion factors including 1 min per 60 sec, the specific heat of water (1 cal/g-deg C), the density of water (1 g/mL), and 4.184 J/cal. Some of these are approximations, but they are close enough for home use.

The efficiency of your stove (in Joules/mL of fuel) is delta T (in deg C) times the volume of water (in mL) times 4.184 J/cal divided by the volume of fuel used (in mL).

With these numbers, you could easily estimate other commonly used stove performance standards such as time to boil 2 cups of water (which will be based on the power of the stove) and the Volume of water that can be boiled using 1/2 oz of fuel, or amount of fuel needed to boil 2 cups of water (which are based on the efficiency of the stove).

I use specialized tools that have been adapted to create the ridges. My father was a "tool and die" maker and taught me many things. Even with specialized tools, the ridges are difficult to apply. It's a "slow" process. I have many many Foster cans with defects because of trying to go too fast. I need to have a scratch&dent sale :-)))

You should be receiving your SS pot soon. Let me know when it arrives. I'm waiting on some 4 gram esbits to try out with a small container inside the cone and using the SS pot. One full size cube was way too much for 2 cups. That test was performed outside with a stiff breeze.

I initially saw the pots in a thread here at BPL. The author was located in California. He got them locally at an Asian food store. I did a search locally and found some at an Asian store. I liked them so much I had them order me 50 more so I could modify them and offer them to BPL members only. The pot only weighs 2oz and the lid is heavy at 1oz. :-) The order from the Asian food store is due in any day now. I'm also waiting on some small 4 gram esbit tabs to test under the pot and cone, they should arrive today. If I can get 2 of the tabs to boil 2 cups using a small feather weight aluminum tin then I'll include one of the tins with the pot.

Dan, if the ones you get are the same as the KV ones, the spot welds are not very solid. I almost was going to ask the KV people if they could contact the distributor to see if the company making them would consider a batch without handles or spot welds, for a small premium. Check the insides of the pot at the spot welds to see how they look.

The 600ml lid weighs about 21 grams.

Pots are less efficient than ti in my tests, noticeably so. But the lids rock, they are really good, better than any ti lid I've ever seen, and just as light.

Harald, that would be great if you could have them get a pallet full with out handles. Yes, I agree about the welds. I have to leave a small tab on the lower portion of the pot that is a remnant of the pot handle that I remove. If I remove the tab it's likely to leave a pinhole in the metal that will leak. The upper one I take off because that is where I weld the bracket. My initial 3 tests were very positive with the stainless. Stainless is suppose to be better at heat conduction right?

Dan,That's a nice ridge on the ti pot. That's what I had envisioned for my Lite Trail no-handled mug to correspond with a custom ti Caldera Cone. For the most part I dislike handled on my pots, with the exception of a bail handle on larger ones. I have dreams about a larger selection of ti pots w/o handles. My dream is to one day own a BPL Firelite 1100. I fear it will never happen. :( and no one will ever make one like it.Sad,James

That was the idea, but the reality didn't correspond to the idea. If I had to put numbers on it, I'd guess that the stainless pot is about 10-15% less efficient.

Where I'd get up to or over a 60 second rolling boil on 2 cups with ti pot, I'd get barely a boil with the ss, if I got a boil at all. I think my last screen with more airholes did get a weak boil out of the ss pot if I remember right, or a boil then out right away.

I had also assumed that ss being a being better conductor would mean more efficient, but this was not at all the result in my testing. In fact, ti was by far the best, this thin ss second best, and an old heavier but wider boyscout aluminum pot by far the worst. This testing actually finally convinced me that ti is not just a sort of overpriced ul thing, but actually has utility and superior characteristics for this task.

This assumption actually made me go down a wrong path re testing for quite a while, I simply could not figure out what had suddenly made my test setup less efficient when nothing had changed other than the allegedly more efficient ss pot, it took a fair number of tests before I realized that the ss was the problem, because magically the ti pot always got better boils. I was also fortunate that the ss and the ti pot are roughly the same diameter so I could discount pot width as a factor.

I speculated a bit as to why this would be the case, and what I guess is that the heat spreads all over the ss pot whereas the heat goes pretty much right from flame to ti pot to water with ti. Since the heat closest to the flame source is strongest and has least area to dissipate, the ti wins, whereas with ss and aluminum, the heat spreads out all over the pot, but also from there to the air, not the water. That's my guess, but I'm not attached to it, but it does make a crude sort of sense assuming my logic isn't based on a false premise. I have an alternate theory that wonders if the ss pot radiates out / back more heat to the burn chamber, making it hotter, making the alcohol boil off faster than it burns. Both theories can work together too.

By the way, I was going to suggest that welding the holes after taking off the spot welded part would yield a very good pot, albeit marked by the weld, but since most people don't have welders, I didn't mention it, but I would think about doing that if I were you, all my pots have distinct rust right inside at the point of the spot weld, and I don't believe those could be relied on over time, unless it's not rust and it's just some weird production glitch. But getting a leak in the bottom holes would not be fun on a longer trip, that's why I won't use mine on long trips.

I purchased the from Jhaura Wachsman at litetrail.com. They're the older version of his solid fuel cook kit. His new ones have...handles:( As far as I know, I have two, Chad from Sticks blog has one and Jhaura has one. There might be more floating around but I don't know where to get them. It's a Toaks brand pot if that helps at all. Maybe an email to Jhaura would help?Thanks, James

James I registerd an account with Toaks website and will correspond with them to see if they can get more of the no handle pots like yours. I may have to order in quantity to get some brought in, which I will do. I'll also contact BPL to see if they can direct me to a wholesale source for Ti pots.

For now, send me yours and I'll put a ridgeline on it so it sits 2 inches off the ground and make a paper cone to simulate rolling it and storing it inside the pot. Send the lid also. There are many users of the StarLyte stoves that place their pots directly on the SS pot support and use the corrugated windscreen and get great results. I now make the StarLyte stoves with the Modified burner. Dan Durston can give you some insight on making a DIY cone. TD should be able to make a cone similar to the one they made for me to fit the SS pot.

I'm just about to head to the mountains for the weekend, no time to pack and ship. I'll get it sent out on Monday. I'm excited to see the results and the potential for this. The perfect ti SUL setup?I have just about every version of your starlyte, with supports, w/o, modified and not. They all have they're special place in one cook kit or another. But, this idea is for esbit specifically but I know itll work with your starlytes. I wonder how well we could do with 4g esbits?-James

James, I wanted to point out something that Conrad said about the placement of the silicone band on his Heineken pot. He said it’s below the 2 cup mark that is shown above the star. The cone is located approximately at the center of the Heineken pot. Half the pot is exposed to the air.

Conrad said he gets his best efficiency with the StarLyte at that location. From the bottom of the band to the bottom of the pot is approx. 2.750 and it’s the same to the top of the pot.

Conrad said:After much experimenting, I found that the band set at the height in the picture resulted in the best boil times using only .5oz of alky. I was getting rolling boils at 9.5mins, and effective burnouts around 12.5 mins (the flame would trickle on until past 14 mins, but it wasn't hot enough to do anything). The key is to leave the lid on and not check it unti you hear it boiling. Premature checking cut down my efficiency a lot and I would only getting bubbling boils before burnout.

An old saying: A watched pot will never boil.

Conrad pointed this out to us in his statement: The key is to leave the lid on and not check it unti you hear it boiling. Premature checking cut down my efficiency a lot and I would only getting bubbling boils before burnout.

When I had TD make a custom cone for my SS pot the ridgeline was placed below the center of the pot. More than half the pot is exposed and yet my first 3 tests using 1/2 ounce denatured alcohol boil 2 cups. I feel positive that we'll be able to make your Ti pot work in the same way.

I'll do some testing with your Ti pot and the 4 gram esbits. I burned a box full on Sunday watching water boil :-) I'll use my new gram burning stove and see if I can squeeze the pot into my Ti Cone.

Awesome! I love the optimism. With the size difference between the 4g and 14g esbits would there be a benefit from a 4g sized esbit tray? And what have you found worked well for your burns on Sunday? Stacked, side-by-side, etc. thanks for the work your doing.-james

James, today's testing shows it's best to lay the 4 gram tabs side by side. That's in the round tin design that I'm playing with. I reduced the amount of holes in the stove and it is now burning to pefection output....no soot or deposit. 2.225 tablets boils 2 cups with my SS 3 cup pot on top of the stoves pot supports in a calm environment. Ran out of time, didn't try it inside the cone.

I have a hand tool that I can easily pre score the 4 gramers so I can break them into quarters when needed. When I do a video, I'll show that tool.

Bob, I gathered up some "2.225 tablets", 2 cups of 70 degree water out of the kitchen tap and proceeded outside to my testing area. It's so hot out that the temperature of the 2 cups of water had risen 25 degrees by the time I was ready to start testing more of the "2.225 tablets". I cancelled the testing due to rising temperatures :-) I live in the Midwest where were having a little heat wave.

I did some testing/playing around with Zelph's new pot using the ridgeline idea to connect it with the cone. The ridgeline idea is awesome - it's lighter than a silicone band and there's no possibility of it moving around on you.

With the Starlyte stove I get excellent performance - virtually the same great results as I do with my other Starlyte/Cone/Evernew 750ml setup. What I was eager to try with this setup is wood, as I was hesitant to get my main pot all sooty and I wanted to try top down burning with Zelph's ring. I was curious if one could really use wood without constant refilling/attention.

I grabbed a few small branches, broke the wood into short pieces and filled the ring:

I put a little firestarter and kindling on top, lit it and blew once. Then I tossed the pot on and sat back to see if it would work without further attention.

11 minutes later my water (2 cups) was boiling. It was impressed that I didn't have to maintain the blaze at all. After using a BushBuddy, it was a welcome change. I made some cowboy coffee and sat back to drink it while the fire continued to burn.

The stove system delivered a nice steady burn that chugged away. I was amazed how consistently and long it burned. Finally after 32 min I had to get moving so I disassembled things and kicked the ashes into the river. I presume a few blows early on would ramp up the blaze for faster boils if one desired.

Coals after 32 min:

I was also pleased to see very little soot on the pot. I gave it a quick wipe with some nearby moss & grass and achieved this:

In summary, this is an awesome cook system because it excels at both alcohol and wood. It's rare to find a system that isn't a comprise between these options. This is perhaps the best alcohol system on the market, and it also happens to burn wood like a champ. I've got to figure out a little better pot support, as my aluminum flashing first attempt wilted under the heat. I also recommend getting a proper cone from Trail Designs, as a MYOG cone doesn't have the sweet dove tail closure.

Dan, Thanks for taking the time to post up your pics and write up. What's the cone? A Zelph special, caldera or home brew? More to the point, where do I get one? Looks like a super light way of doing both, as you say, without the typical compromise. I use a MLD 850 kettle, Ti Caldera, and Zia Grill (which would work with your set up I think) right, now; but it's always fun - as you no doubt know - to try out new tools and methods.

Brian: The cone is a home brew prototype. I have several legit cones from Trail Designs for other pots and I prefer the TD cones (for the excellent dove tail closure amongst other attributes), but I whipped this one up to give the concept a test. It's aluminum flashing (cheap at Home Depot) and you can find video's on youtube on how to make 'em.

This is a committing move, but what you should do is cut your cone so it's just tall enough to fit in your pot. Then you can use a silicone band to suspend the pot at the correct height for a Starlyte, add new bottom vent holes and grab yourself a sweet Starlyte stove to achieve something like this (this is my other Starlyte setup, depicted to show how the band works if you don't have a ridge in your pot):

The Starlyte works excellent in a cone (Trail Designs is even offering them now) and you can grab a ti loop from Zelph to give wood a go as well. The other less committing but more expensive option is to grab one of Zelph's sweet new pots with the ridge, and get a cone, Starlyte and wood loop for that. This is the ideal option, but it requires more new stuff.

Bob: The idea is to achieve a top down burn so that it burns longer/steady. On a normal fire, the firestarter/kindling would go on the bottom. I'm pretty sure you'd never get a +32min burn lighting this little bit of wood at the bottom.

Hi Dan, super great Ontario photos. Glad you like the pot with ridgeline. It sure beats the heck out of having to use a silicone band. A stainles steel pot is a lot less expensive option for wood burning trials. I noticed your aluminum cone fared well in the wood mode. The cone drafts well with the top holes positioned as they are. A 3/4" high pot support works well set right on top. I'll send you one of my creations so you can practice the top light method. I think you're going to be using wood fuel more often:-)

I'll have a couple dozen of these pots available next week. I'll have the rings and pot supports also. They will be available to backpackinglight members only. Trail Designs should have the info on record for making the cone to fit my pot. My pot to them is known as "zelphs fire pot". I mainly wanted the cone set-up to burn wood with the Ti cone. The ridgeline pot and alcohol was pure secondary bliss. The cone stores upright in the pot. I initially was going to invert the cone and use it with the Ti tent pegs but as I was waiting for the cone to arrive I had a thought of using some 3/4" material to create the 1 piece "X" design pot support. It worked out really well for me. A one piece pot support was better than 2 pcs of stakes. The "X" fits in the pot.

Use a grate of some sort to raise the bundle of twigs up so air can get under for a better burn. A piece of hardware cloth setting on 2 twigs works. The twigs eventually burn away long after your water boils.

It's been a long time since I've had Hobo Coffee. Your photo brings back good memories. :-)

Dan D, Thank you for the excellent explanation. I have two Caldera Cones already, an SP 700, and a MLD 850 Kettle. I also have two StarLyte stoves and a StarLyte burner. So maybe I'm close to being able to try what you have there. I did not realize that the aluminum flashing would hold up to that kind of heat. Interesting.

Dan Y, PM incoming. I'm getting one of your pots and a Ti ring if they are available and I haven't missed the proverbial boat. Really looking forward to trying the ring set up out. If I put my 850 on my Ti grill in a cone, I'll be most of the way there. But I want - as opposed to need - the pot too.

Here's my other option, an SP700 Tri-Ti "Fusion" TD built for me. Doesn't look like your ring would fit inside this one. Oh well, the 850 isn't too much heavier.

Dan's aluminum flashing cone will not last too long with repeated hot fires. His pine twigs grouped close together burned slow and most of the heat was well contained. The ring helps to contain radiant heat in the center. If the twigs were able to fall close to the walls of the cone you'll be able to see the heat pattern and would deteriorate the aluminum more quickly.

How tall is the top section of your Fusion? I can see in your photos, the heat pattern on your cone shows your pot is being heated only on one side, the side where the large opening is, and probably only half of the bottom.You might be able to take the top section off and use it like I used my Ti cone for wood. Your top section has "V" notches that would allow incoming air and then you would use a pot support in the shape of an "X" on top of it like what Dan and I used.

Good point about raising up the wood for a faster burn. I forgot that you did this in your video. I'll give it a shot.

Regarding aluminum, the cone was unscathed from this burn but the pot support wilted under the heat. It lasted thru this burn but it's not usable for a second. I'm sure I can come up with something pretty easily though. Ti would be the ultimate though. I'm pretty tempted to cough up the money for a proper TD cone for the Firepot.

Dan, the first thing I noticed about your aluminum cone was the lack of heat discoloration. That's great, shows you have good drafting going on there. I'm hoping TD will not charge for a custom size pot since I've already paid for the initial one. Hoping they'll give a decent price on such a small cone. I've had a few people PM me getting inline for a pot which I think means TD will be getting orders for the cone. I guess if enough interest is there I will order the cones and provide a one stop source for the kit.

I forgot to mention that the Ti cone fits in my pot horizontal and vertical.

The stainless steel fire ring/hoop is 3.750" in diameter and easily fits inside the pot. There is enough room left over in the pot for lots of stuff. It's a large light weight SS pot. I'm not going to charge an arm and a leg for it. Big pot,small price.

I imagine there are lot of people that don't frequent geek threads like this, but are looking for an elegant and affordable cooking system. If you could put together a sub-$100 pot/stove/cone/wood package I think it would be popular. You're really onto something the ridgeline - it elegantly solves a problem that TD has been trying to address for years.

Hi Dan, hope you had a chance to use your twig ring to do some fire experimenting.

I'll get in touch with Rand today and see what we can come up with to put together a package deal. The package would be Ti Caldera Cone, Ridgeline Fire Pot w/Fire Fork removable handle, Modified Esbit Burner, fire grate and "x" pot support for the fire mode.

Dan Yeruski and I have been working together to try and put together a compact, light weight, and simple. it started as a Lite Trail 550 solid fuel cook kit. The kit originally came with a ti-wing stove, windscreen, paper clips (to keep the windscreen together), and 550ml ti pot. I was hoping to simplify this kit with a Caldera Cone and replace the ti-wing stove and windscreen with a Caldera Cone that fit in the pot. Because the 550ml ti pot doesn't have the squatty dimensions getting this to work would be a challenge.

This is where communication with Dan Y came in. I contacted him about putting ridges on ti pots which he was able to do quite magnificently. Some simple testing with a home made Cone seemed to indicate proof of concept. link to video The ridge on the pot could support the pot on a cone, and a cone could be made to fit in the pot.

Time for pictures!

Here we have the pot with the ridge appropriately placed to support it off the ground for use with Esbit.

The cone in the pot.

Things are going good so far so I get two cups of cold tap water in the pot, Dan Y's new Esbitlite stove, and the cone.

Then came the rather disappointing realization that the cone wasn't completed at the top, which meant I would have to use ti stakes to support the pot. I don't know if I miss-communicated with Rand at trail designs or he misunderstood what I wanted. Either way the ridge now proved to be a useless modification. Ti stakes were added and tested proceeded.

All things considered the testing went well. The Esbitlite stove worked well to heat the water without leaving a bunch of gunk on the bottom of the pot. It was easy to wipe off. It's too bad about the misunderstanding between what I wanted and what I got in terms of the caldera cone and the its inability to be used with the ridge. The whole package does pack up nicely and everything I want still fits in the pot; the cone, the stove and a few tabs of esbit.

Jason told them where he was going to support the pot with the silicone band. You told them you wanted to support it with the ridgeline. Jason's mug has handles and yours doesn't. Can't under stand why they made the cutout for handles and did the Ti stake support thing. They made my cone for the Fire Pot with no cut out for handles and to be supported by the ridgeline.

Someone sent me an email with a few questions and one of them involved this thread. I read at the comments here and thought I'd bump it up and ask if there is any feed back on the stainless steel pot I made available. I see Dan Durston has used his and looks like the vertical stack burned well for him.

Always good to read about burning wood to heat water :-) I feel sorry for you folks out west that can't use wood fires. :-(

I use my Sidewinder Ti-Tri + Starlyte + 1.3 Evernew pot without the stakes and if I prop up the bottom of the cone 1/4 inch to let in more air it is only a little slower than the 12-10, but more efficient. Doing this I use 12 grams of fuel to boil 16oz of 55 degree water. Test your setup with pencils propping up the cone, I think you will like it.

I'm also new to this thread but having just gotten a Sidewinder ti-tri (with 1.3L evernew) I thought I'd revisit. I took it out for 2 trips, love how well the cone works, hate the hell out of the stakes.

If I get the Starlyte and fuel is less of a priority than speed, I should get the original one, correct?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a Sidewinder as well. I understand the stakes can be a bit hard to set up. Am I understanding correctly that using a Starlyte alleviates this problem? And I'm not sure which is the "original"... Is the original the model of Starlyte that TD sells as an alternative to the 12-10? Thanks,

And now all this commentary has me wondering what the boil times would be with the same beer can/Sidewinder combo and the Brian Green modified Gram Cracker tab holder with ESBIT. Hmmmm?? Anyone out there tried this?

Personally I use a small 3 cup anodized aluminum pot and lid with my Sidewinder. Maybe the smaller beer can setup would boil a lot faster. My needs are boiling water AND cooking (like spaghetti), thus the small pot and not a beer can mug.