Grey Power is being criticised for calling on Auckland Council to review the number of Asian immigrants in the city.

As part of a submission for Auckland Council’s 30-year plan, the lobby group asked for a forum to look at the changing face of Auckland and the impact of different cultures.

Grey Power’s submission is based on population forecasts which suggest the Asian community will be the dominant ethnic group in Auckland by 2040.

Auckland regional director Bill Rayner says the proposal is not meant to offend anyone, but many of its members want the country’s population to remain Pacific-based and not have such a large Asian component.

How sad that a group which purports to seek a fair go for older New Zealanders, exposes itself as having a racist agenda.

Immigration should be colour-blind. Individuals should be assessed against criteria such as education, skills, wealth and ability to settle and assimilate in New Zealand. When a group like Grey Power says they want fewer Asians immigrating to New Zealand, what they are saying is that no matter what their individual qualities, prospective immigrants should be ruled out on the basis of their race or ethnicity.

There are legitimate debates about the pace of immigration, as excessive immigration can strain infrastructure. But that debate should be about the overall level of immigration to NZ, not about keeping one ethnicity out or down.

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I was warned about 15 years ago about the problems we were going to have here in NZ with the mass importation of Chinese migrants, although most are probably law abiding citizens, the underbelly is made up of ruthless gangsters who control the methamphetamine trade here in NZ, they have linked up with the traditional NZ indigenous gangs and motorcycle gangs to distribute their fine products.

Chinese immigration has also fuelled property prices here in NZ as Chinese citizens are looking for places to salt away their money and borrowing costs in China are only 1%, no wonder the average young kiwi can not afford to buy a house.

We have sold all our forests and our building costs are through the roof, so no wonder people in this country can not afford to build.

Once our farms and our power companies are gone, we will all be catching the slow boat to China to work on their
co-operative farms.

Haha, old people are often racist. We allow/encourage it because it’s kind of funny.

However, once the elderly are in resthomes they’ll find the some of the only people who will lift them off the toilet, wipe their bums, and wash their old backs are those from the Philippines or Fiji. That might cause them to change their minds (if they still have them).

If we banned Asian immigrants, then they’d have to find native NZers (those born here of any race) who would rather hoist old people around for $12/hour when they have a choice of staying at home, smoking weed and watching Sky and still getting paid.

David, you’re to be commended for covering this disgusting piece of bigotry from Grey Power, a particularly significant decision given 90% of your commenter base either belongs to, or is in the same demographic as, that crazy advocacy group.

The single biggest determinant for a migrant’s successful integration into any country is their ability to speak the local language.

Up until 20 years ago all non-English speaking migrants really had no choice but to make an attempt to learn English if they wanted to live and work in this country.

Today, some communities are so large in some cities (notably Chinese living in Auckland) that they can live and work here without ever having to learn English. This is regrettable.

In France, with respect to refugees, the French Government will only accept refugees who can already speak French. They figure that there are enough French-speaking refugees out there already without taking on the added burden and cost of accepting non-French speaking refugees

Hurry up and die you miserable old fucks. You’re an embarassment and we can’t afford to go on wasting money on the likes of you.

The sight of those doddery old gits fawning all over Peters was proof positive that if its good enough to have antiquated drivers re-sit their driving tests, they should also be tested for mental competence to vote.

While it is at face value racist, they could be saying the same about Indians, Greeks, Italians, Slavs, Polynesians – frankly any culture that immigrated in numbers allowing enclaves to develop. Australia has all the above, we frankly only have Polynesians, Chinese, and Indians.

The concern voiced by these people, perhaps poorly, is that cultural assimilation takes time. It takes a generation with the kids of immigrants through the NZ school system -growing up embedded in NZ culture – speaking like kiwis with all our slang, our love of rugby and cricket, etc etc. I can almost guarantee that 95% of these Grey Power people will not have a problem with born and bred kiwi Asians after speaking to them and having a natter. The frustration of not being able to communicate on the same level is the key driver here.

Asians (to generalise) by and large are industrious, entrepreneurial, and value education as a way forward. With our ageing population we will need more immigrants going forward to pay the bills (we have too many lazy sods currently).
We either change the culture of our existing base population, or we import smart industrious people who can speak English from wherever we can get them, including Asia. Frankly we are lucky to get them here.

The other benefit of Asian immigration is their connections to Asia for trade. Our Asian-NZ population will prove a major advantage to New Zealand over the coming century.

If we keep mass immigration of Asians, then at some point in the future Asian NZ’ers will outnumber NZ european. European culture will be marginalised and NZ cities will be more like visiting Shanghai/Bangkok — ie, spot the european face. You don’t think the majority Asian race will discriminate? Think again.

There are major cultural wars going on. Just look to Europe to see the turmoil. The UK has accepted just about anyone , look at the mess there. You think you are in Calcutta not the UK.

Individuals should be assessed against criteria such as education, skills, wealth and ability to settle and assimilate in New Zealand.

Which is what I suspect Grey Power mean.

About 15 years ago a Malaysian Chinese gentleman warned me about this very thing noting that the Chinese do not assimilate (as indeed many of those from Northern Africa do not) but import their lifestyle with them wherever they go.

If you ask for the opinion of any fourth or fifth generation NZ Chinese about recent migrants I think you’d be surprised.
I’ve a Otago Chinese cock relation who’s ancestors came here in the mid 19th century and her opinion of new arrivals mirrors that of many grey power people.

I didn’t know Asians would be the “dominant ethnic group” by 2040. Shit happens though.

Grey Power are just a horrible group of old selfish bastards. As someone else said, not many of them will still be around to speak loudly to the new immigrants.

Maori used to have the monopoly on the gimme gimme gimme attitude, but Grey Power are catching up. Selfish old people who couldnt care less if they bankrupted the country, as long as the country was still white.

Based only on what is quoted above this seems to be a misinterpretation of and over-reaction to what Grey Power is saying.

The segment above expresses concern at “the impact of different cultures” and “the country’s population” not just Auckland’s.

There is an unfortunate habit in some quarters to regard any criticism of immigration as racism. Some is. But there are not-racist angles too. The ability of infrastructure to handle a rapidly increasing population is one, as DPF points out.

But the really important one – that Grey Power fingers – is culture. I regard our culture as really being New Zealand’s most precious posession. It is unique, and is deeply ingrained in us. And it is absolutely legitimate that we should want to preserve it.

Now I have no problem with New Zealanders being all different colours and ethnicities. Immigrants tend over time and generations to adapt and absorb Kiwi culture. And if they bring a little of their own historic culture in to the mix, well, that’s OK too.

What I think Grey Power fears is that too many immigrants from a very different culture arriving in New Zealand (and especially in Auckland) too fast will simply overwhelm the culture’s ability to absorb them, and result in a sub culture that does not get absorbed because it is so large that it is self-sustaining.

Grey Power fears that Auckland will become a Chinese city that happens to be physically in New Zealand. I think this is something that has happened in many other places around the world with many other cultures. Look at Singapore for example. It is on the Malay pennisula, but it is essentially a Chinese city (74% of citizens are of Chinese descent).

This is not a stupid fear, or a completely unrealistic one. And it is perfectly understandable that people do not want their city – or country – to become foreign to them. They do not want to find themselves aliens in their own land.

I am sure there are many racists who would agree with that. But it is NOT actually an issue of racism. It is an issue of culturism.

I was planning on becoming a happy old fuck, so I haven’t really cosidered the euthanasia issue.

But you raise an interesting point. I shall change my enduring power of attorney so that if I’m ever spotted doddering up to that POS Peters, dribbling from the corner of my mouth like the rancid old git on TV last night, then my attorney will authorised to slip a bomb in my underpants to take us both out. It would be all I deserved for losing my marbles so completely and although the shame would live on, at least I would have gone out doing the world a favour.

Actually the submission as quoted by DPF suggest that they are saying that Pacifica’s are not in favour of Asians.

Auckland regional director Bill Rayner says the proposal is not meant to offend anyone, but many of its members want the country’s population to remain Pacific-based and not have such a large Asian component.

So you anti white mofo’s can STFU and go back to your prejudices.

Makes a change from having anti Maori shoved down our throats.

Anyway Auckland deserves all it gets.
We are going to shut the highway at the Bombays. (Indian Territory)
Most of them Jaffa’s don’t even know the highway goes further South.

That said, I don’t see why predominantly european countries should ever voluntarily agree to become minorities. The Dalai Lama is hardly going to agree it’s a good idea to allow in greater numbers of Han Chinese, for the simple reason the Tibetan culture will be marginalised. Europeans should also look to protect their culture by managing immigration carefully to ensure integration rather than displacement of the host culture. As Frank Salter writes in Quadrant:

“Unrestricted migration would harm Australia’s national interests in ways documented by scholars in economics, sociology and related disciplines. Much of the harm is predictable from what is known about the dysfunctions of diversity. They include growing inequality in the especially invidious form of ethnic stratification. No one likes to be ruled over by a different ethnic group or to see his own people worse off than others. The result is resentment or contempt, depending on the perspective taken.

Diversity has also been associated with reduced democracy, slowed economic growth, falling social cohesion and foreign aid, as well as rising corruption and risk of civil conflict.”

I think that simply calling this submission “racist” is like Hone Harawira playing the racism card. Not every statement that concerns race is a racist one. Don Brash is considered the most racist politician in NZ according to a TV poll the other night, even though he constantly says he wants equal treatment/rights for all NZers.
Grey Power did themselves no favours in how they worded their submission, but I think it’s legitimate to question the ability for large groups of people from one country or religion or any other group to assimilate. It is especially difficult for people with very limited English ability. Perhaps the thing that should be focussed on is making sure migrants are able to effectively communicate in English. As other people have pointed out, if a small society is filled too quickly with a large group of people from one culture, then there is less incentive for those people to adjust to the host country’s way of life. As I saw when I lived in the outer suburbs of Melbourne and London, sub-cultures are created in which all work, shopping and socialising is done with people from their home country. Migration creates a more vibrant culture, but only if the new migrant shares their culture and is prepared to share the host country’s culture.

I was planning on becoming a happy old fuck, so I haven’t really cosidered the euthanasia issue.

But you raise an interesting point. I shall change my enduring power of attorney so that if I’m ever spotted doddering up to that POS Peters, dribbling from the corner of my mouth like the rancid old git on TV last night, then my attorney will authorised to slip a bomb in my underpants to take us both out. It would be all I deserved for losing my marbles so completely and although the shame would live on, at least I would have gone out doing the world a favour.

Grey Power probably are somewhat racist but I think this issue needs more consideration than just dismissing it as small minded prejudice against non-white ethnicities.

The fact is that race, in this case various Asian ethnicities, is a proxy measurement for culture. My concern is that the culture many of these people come from is not compatible with our own culture. Chinese for instance tolerate a dictatorship which is hugely oppressive. It is indicative of their culture that such a thing is tolerated.

Moreover, anyone working in Immigration knows that Immigration New Zealand treats migrants from certain areas differently. Migrants from Cambodia for instance will have their applications sent to a special profiling group precisely because of the culture which these migrants come from. Document fraud is rife and it is difficult to trust anything these migrants say. This is not a reflection of their race but rather it is a reflection of the society which they come from where people only get ahead by being more dodgy than the next guy.

There are many positive attributes of Asian culture which include a strong work ethic, self-reliance, civil obedience, they value education etc. etc. But there are other aspects which should cause legitimate concern. I am concerned by the way many asian cultures are overly obedient towards authority to the extent they tolerate police states and limited individual liberty.

Granted their kids will be raised in the dominant culture and will be more likely to adopt new cultural norms than their parents, but this takes time.

The governments which exist in certain countries is a direct reflection of the people and culture which make up the country even when the government is not democratic. Given this, immigration policy should be weighted towards those countries which are more in line with the basic values we hold dear. Thus people from Japan should be favoured over people from China, other things being equal.

As I said there can be legitimate concerns about the pace of immigration and the ability to assimilate – but I don’t believe you judge that on ethnicity, rather take people as individuals.

The test for me is will the children be “Kiwis”. They may be Asian Kiwis, Muslim Kiwis, British Kiwis, Pacific Kiwis, South African Kiwis, but that they do integrate into New Zealand life and culture (while still retaining their own identity if important to them).

Many Asian Kiwis do exactly that, which is why I find it weird people go on about Asian immigration so much. Sure the first generation may not integrate perfectly, but the test for me is will their children do so.

How sad that a group which purports to seek a fair go for older New Zealanders, exposes itself as having a racist agenda.

I don’t see that they have a “racist” agenda. They have an agenda to protect New Zealand’s cultural and political sovereignty.

As I said there can be legitimate concerns about the pace of immigration and the ability to assimilate – but I don’t believe you judge that on ethnicity, rather take people as individuals.

The problem with this line David is that it assumes (in good liberal fashion) that individuals are just that, like blank slates. But in fact individuals come with a great deal of cultural and political baggage that has an impact on the new country, especially if they come in large enough numbers.

Heres a question. If the increasingly beligerent government of China ends up close to or in a military conflict with Australia and New Zealand, who do you think “kiwi chinese” are going to support?

@ Weihana

Given this, immigration policy should be weighted towards those countries which are more in line with the basic values we hold dear. Thus people from Japan should be favoured over people from China, other things being equal.

Good post Rakuraku,
Most NZers are very naive about Asian crime. Asian gangs are ruthless. They think nothing of chopping off people’s limbs and throwing acid in peolpe’s faces..and who knows how many people they murder. Business and gangsters are inextricably linked. You cannot make money in Asia have a successful business without the support of gangsters. This is why no one calls the police..People live in fear as gangs rule everything….The gangsters are also in thick with the politicians,
This is already happening here with both major parties accepting donations from Chinese crooks posing as business people.
Quite a number of elderly NZers fought the Japanese..How convenient it is to forget the horror that was the Pacific war. They are entitled to their views.

Weihana says:- “Chinese for instance tolerate a dictatorship which is hugely oppressive. It is indicative of their culture that such a thing is tolerated.”

Ha! The conservative yellow peril! That doesn’t make sense to me. Oppression demands compliance, not tolerance. Also, many would be leaving China in passive protest to the prevailing political system. Poor, tired, huddled masses are far more likely to be consevative.

Most of the Chinese who emigrate here are middle class, and meld seamlessly in with the existing culture. Trust me, I know. I live in Howick. The neighbours are considerate, polite and engaging and it’s really a very nice place to live. And it warms my heart to see all the bright, Kiwi accented ethnically Chinese bilingual kids streaming out of the local schools carrying with them the key to New Zealand’s future successful trading relationship the the increasingly wealthy Golden Dragon.

I just think there is more to the issue than the mercantilist – ‘what are immigrants worth and how will the infrastructure cope?’. Our immigration profile will, as it has done in the past, determine what NZ culture ultimately is for us in our dottage and for our children and children’s children. Whilst it was sloppy drafting by GP I do think this is a debate NZ should have. I mean f*ck me if we can burn up media hours over a teapot surely we can have a grown up conversation on the cultural make up of NZ – which is something we can collectively determine. Being more disciplined with the ‘R’ word would be a good place to start.

Having travelled extensively throughout Asia,the one overwhemling impression that remains with you is overpopulation. The region is packed with over two thirds of the worlds population squeezed into the southern hemisphere.
In my opinion it is an inescapable fact that eventually asians will be the dominate culture in New Zealand and accompanying that will be a profound change in New Zealand culture, moving away from a eurocentric focus towards an asian focus.
Presently China could export 10 million of their citizens here at the drop of a hat and barely make a ripple in China but have a huge impact here.
Whether you like it or not that is going to be the future for New Zealand and Australia.

I don’t see what the problem is. NZ has no culture, so very little to protect. I for one salute our Chinese overlords. They might bring some much needed Confucian values to revive the stagnant and decaying remains of English sensibility that still holds togather this trainwreck of a society.

I think you made a spelling mistake – your last word should read “powder”.
And I am over 70, so they should be careful to what and whom they represent – Winston the Great but we others are unenlightened.

Nothing – congenital idiots have the same access to democratic consultation by local government as anyone else.

But if an inexplicably influential lobby group like Grey Power will put their name to factually defective, lurid Yellow Peril vapourings that wouldn’t have been out of place 150 years ago, I reserve the right to point. And laugh.

If nothing else, Grey Power might like to hire someone with some expertise in basic research to explain to Mr Dunlop that (according to the 2006 census) on the North Shore “Asians” makes up less than one in five of the population, and of normally resident population who were born outside New Zealand a majority identify ‘England’ as their point of origin. A semi-competent demographer might also be able to explain how immigration is a much less significant population driver than… well, fertile women having babies. But that might prompt Grey Power to share their thoughts on race-based eugenics, which I could do without.

If it wants to be wealthy, then let’s take these Chinese folk with their fat wallets and sell them some beachfront property, then reinvest the proceeds back into the booming Chinese and Indian economies.

If it wants to be poor, listen to greypower, become the world’s retirement village, and watch anyone young with half a brain leave.

Fish probably don’t notice the water either. Maybe go and live in Asia, Africa or the Middle East for a while. Then you might notice that NZ definitely has its own culture just as most countries do. New Zealand is significantly a daughter of Europe and her peoples, heritage and traditions. If the demographics change significantly then obviously it will become more like Asia or whichever cultural traditions the newcomers hold.

NZ might have had culture 30 – 40 years ago, now it’s a wattered down broth of American and Australian leftovers with afat dollop of Pasifika, lazily boilng over a fire of limited economic success. I’ve been around. NZ is like a kindergarden version of the American Pacific Mid West with a sprinkling of low personal aspirations and a pinch of tall poppy.

Increasing ethnic diversity tends to reduce interpersonal trust, community involvement and social capital. Granted, that can be offset somewhat by selecting for skilled/smart migrants.* Jason Richwine has an interesting article on this, discussing the research of Robert Putman and Garret Jones.

Never said I don’t like it, I just find it laughable most of the time.

In this ocean of average I’m considered a high achiever who dresses well. I’m almost a “rich prick”. The fact that I’m white makes me more socialy acceptable, I’m just as much a ‘threat’to NZ ‘culture’ as my neighbours Jackie Chan and Suckdeep Ampani.

“Quite a number of elderly NZers fought the Japanese..How convenient it is to forget the horror that was the Pacific war. ”

Yeah, I’ve forgotten World War Two. I was getting dragged out of bed before dawn on Anzac Day by my Father [C Company, 28th (Maori) Battalion] before it became trendy again.

And you, dear friend, might want to crack open a book (or fire up Google) and school yourself what civilian life was like under Japanese occupations before using WW2 as a fig-leaf for anti-Asian bigotry. Start with ‘Sook Ching Massacre’ and ‘comfort women’. ‘Tis better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool etc.

Well put. We are all steeped in culture, and most of our customs we share with the Chinese. (and all other cultures for that matter) They are a function of our speciel being. The differences are superficial.

Note – Culture defined as:

>> An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning.

>> The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization, or group.

>> Excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture.

Scott Chris,
“Most of the Chinese who emigrate here are middle class, and meld seamlessly in with the existing culture. Trust me, I know. I live in Howick. The neighbours are considerate, polite and engaging and it’s really a very nice place to live.”

Most of my colleagues are from Asia. They are considerate, polite, engaging and nice to work with. But as likeable as they are on a personal level they nevertheless tend to have no problem with a government dictatorship which has no notion of a fair trial and which executes people with no right of appeal. They often demonstrate a fierce patriotism without much consideration of the flaws in their government. Indeed, what I see as flaws they see as strengths. I question a police state with the arbitrary power to imprison and execute people and all they see is a low crime rate.

The same can be said of many Muslims. I see countries with appalling records on human rights, sexual discrimination and oppressive theocracy. They see a virtuous society with good traditional values.

People can be likeable and civil yet support beliefs that could see the end of our liberal democracy.

Weihana says:- “People can be likeable and civil yet support beliefs that could see the end of our liberal democracy.”

Yes I see your point, but importing conservatives at this point in time is a necessary sacrifice to fill various labour shortages and bolster our national competitiveness. I don’t feel my liberty threatened with the current rate of immigration, and inevitably the New Zealand Chinese community will liberalize as the kids rebel against their stiff necked parents.

Also, it does sound to me like your work colleagues may be overcompensating in an effort to prove their worthiness as good Kiwi citizens. That would involve taking a pro-government stance regardless of what that government represents in case you might view them as seditious.

Scott Chris (2,814) Says:
November 22nd, 2011 at 6:13 pm
Weihana says:- “People can be likeable and civil yet support beliefs that could see the end of our liberal democracy.”
Yes I see your point, but importing conservatives at this point in time is a necessary sacrifice to fill various labour shortages and bolster our national competitiveness. I don’t feel my liberty threatened with the current rate of immigration, and inevitably the New Zealand Chinese community will liberalize as the kids rebel against their stiff necked parents.

Problem is many of them are not filling important labour shortages. They’re studying for Diploma’s in Business from various “upstairs” schools where grades are bought and graduation is followed by a position as checkout supervisor at the local Countdown.

There are plenty of “skilled” jobs which I fail to see why New Zealanders can’t do them. Managing a 2 dollar store for instance is a skilled job. Managing at McDonalds is a skilled job. Managing a small office is a skilled job. If we can’t do these types of jobs what the hell can we do? It’s one thing to import skilled scientists, technicians and professionals. But when we import people to do common administrative and management roles then what does this leave us?

Immigration policy needs reform. The rubbish schools need to be eliminated and there needs to be an overhaul of policy designed to attract so-called “skilled” migrants. We also need to reform the education of our own citizens to encourage them to take up the qualifications that will enable them to fill our labour shortages rather than studying courses that are of little practical value.

On the other hand we should liberalize policy designed to attract investment. Remove english language requirements, their money alone will do just fine if they employ some New Zealanders.

Anyway, back to the issue of demographics I am concerned if drastic change will occur in 30 years. That’s not enough time.