My problem is that I am merely the conduit pipe 1for this material. I gave my own personal undertaking in 2order to get the material released; I do not really feel I 3can break it. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: To save time, what I am inclined to say is 5this. It does appear to me that there is good reason for 6supposing that it is in the public domain. If that be 7right, I do not see it is realistic to maintain the 8undertaking. I am therefore inclined to think it should 9be lifted, but I would like to give an opportunity to 10whoever it may be to make representations, whether through 11you or in some other way. 12MR IRVING: I do not want to be held in contempt. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course you do not, but the undertaking 14will stay until tomorrow morning. If somebody tomorrow 15morning wants to say that the undertaking should remain in 16place, I will hear argument then. 17MR IRVING: My Lord, tomorrow is Friday. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know, but I suspect your cross-examination 19is going to continue until tomorrow. 20MR RAMPTON: I do not know that there is going to be any 21difficulty at all. The only difficulty I can see, and it 22is mere conjecture, is that there may be parts of the 23electronic version which has been given to Mr Irving for 24the purposes of this case and no other purpose. There may 25be parts of that which are not in the copy which has been 26released.

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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be. 2MR RAMPTON: -- in which case I would have to maintain my 3position so far as those other parts are concerned. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am bound to say I am not sure that 5I understand why the Eichmann diaries are relevant 6because, if they were not, and they by definition were 7not, available to Mr Irving, I am not sure how they can be 8used by way of criticism. 9MR RAMPTON: I may say I rather agree with that. It is not my 10intention contention today at any rate to make any 11reference to them in this court. The fact is they do 12contain, as anybody can see if they read the public 13report, some statements made in 1960 something which, if 14reliable, demolish Holocaust denial really at one fell 15swoop, but so what. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can see that there is a way in which they 17could be capable of being used in this trial, but I will 18leave you to take whatever course you think is right. 19MR RAMPTON: My present inclination, I am not saying it is the 20final inclination, is that this is something for the 21historians to argue about, rather than the lawyers in this 22court, but I will reserve my position for the present at 23least, if I may. I do not know, Mr Irving may have 24further things? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there is one other point. 26MR IRVING: There are two other points, my Lord. One is the

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1video of the Halle meeting on 9th November 1991. I wish 2to make submissions to your Lordship next week about the 3admissibility of that video, because it was the subject of 4a bitter dispute between myself and the instructing 5solicitors for the Defendants. It was a matter of 6withheld discovery, fraudulently withheld discovery. In 7fact, I was reminded of this by the OSS this morning. 8I put a complaint into the OSS over undertakings broken by 9the solicitors, and so on. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who are the OSS? 11MR IRVING: Offices for the Supervision of Solicitors in 12Leamington Spa; a rather toothless body which watches over 13malfunctions by solicitors. So I would like permission to 14make a submission about the admissibility of the video as 15such. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Do that when you like. In some ways it 17ought to be perhaps done sooner rather than later. 18MR IRVING: I had prepared a little bundle on this many, many 19weeks ago and I was just reminded of this actual matter 20this morning by this phone call from the OSS. 21 The final matter is the little bundle I put 22before your Lordship headed "Documents on Mr Irving's 1991 23arrest". 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 25MR IRVING: This is the Lowenbraukeller meeting. It is a 26matter of my truthfulness, whether I am right or whether

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1the Defence submissions are correct, namely that I was a 2participant in an illegal demonstration or not. These are 3three or four documents on the police file which contain 4the statement that was made at the time of arrest and so 5on, which I have summarised in the two-page translation at 6this beginning. Either your Lordship can say now that you 7attach no importance to the issue of the submissions made 8yesterday as to whether I was telling the truth or not. 9It bulked quite large in the cross-examination but your 10Lordship may very well say you attach no importance to it. 11If your Lordship does attach importance to it, then 12I would ask permission to put these documents to Professor 13Funke, who is in the court this morning. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it matters a row of beans 15whether it was an illegal demonstration, or whether it was 16not. 17MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: The relevance, as it appears to me ---- 19MR IRVING: The question is my truthfulness. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- is simply whether you did either 21participate in, or in some other way associate yourself 22with, the demonstration that one sees on the video. 23MR IRVING: I appreciate that point, my Lord, but the other 24point is my truthfulness. If I state something which is 25then disbelieved by the Defence and they maintain their 26position despite my several invitations to accept that

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1they are wrong, and here are the documents that clearly 2show from the police files that I am right, namely what 3time it was, the fact that it was an hour after the 4function in the Lowenbraukeller ended that I was 5apprehended, the fact that we were heading northwards, so 6to speak ---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am going to do, subject to Mr Rampton, 8is -- I do not know whether he is going to cross-examine 9you about this? 10MR RAMPTON: No. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is any reason -- I do 12not think it has anything do with Professor Funke. He was 13not there. I do not see any reason why you should not 14very shortly, as it were, put this in evidence through 15your own mouth, as it were, or indeed by way of 16submission, I do not mind. 17MR IRVING: Very well. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: That can be done either straightaway or it 19can be done later on. Mr Rampton, I do not know whether 20you are going to touch on this in cross-examination? 21MR RAMPTON: No. For the most part, right-wing extremism to my 22way of thing, has been done and dusted. I have very 23little cross-examination left on that, and it certainly 24does not concern Germany. As to these new document, I am 25completely neutral because I do not know what they say. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: