it's preferable to have both organic and local of course. but i find that a lot of the time the stuff at the farmers market i go to in baltimore is local and not organic and the stuff at whole foods is organic but not local. i think people put undo emphasis on organic as being good for the environment. sure its good for where ever the stuff is grown but any benifit is canceled out if you're shipping the stuff overseas or even cross country.

Thanks for clearing that up. I agree 100%

Last edited by TurnpikeGates on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:17 pm

PHIL LACIO AKA P DAWGthe godfather of troll

Joined: 18 Oct 2002
Posts: 4825

whole foods has been overpriced to me. F Them

Stumble..there is a sunflower market here too an they are legit I usually go there or a very similiar place callled Sprouts
I just scored some Bison an a few other things from Sunflower last week.
I also found some coconut water that MVSteve drinks at Sunflower too.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:03 pm

icarus502kung-pwn master

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11291
Location: ann arbor

The local/organic conflict is about whether we'd prefer local polyculture to organic industrial monoculture, and the answer is yes. Of course, this also imposes a number of false dilemmas. But, in general, I think it's more important to support sustainability as small-scale and as polyculture (preferably organic/bio) rather than the Sustainability(TM) of industrial organic farming.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:08 pm

PHIL LACIO AKA P DAWGthe godfather of troll

Joined: 18 Oct 2002
Posts: 4825

icarus502 wrote: The local/organic conflict is about whether we'd prefer local polyculture to organic industrial monoculture, and the answer is yes. Of course, this also imposes a number of false dilemmas. But, in general, I think it's more important to support sustainability as small-scale and as polyculture (preferably organic/bio) rather than the Sustainability(TM) of industrial organic farming.

that's what I was about to say.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:09 pm

Mark in Minnesota

Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 2050
Location: Saint Louis Park, MN

There's also getting to be a backlash against organic food in some circles because the labeling and production rules have been so inconsistent. I've seen it here on the forum for a long time now, but I'm even starting to see mainstream press about it here and there.

Locavores have a much more personal relationship with the folks who produce their food, which means they're not quite so likely to get "cashed in" on the way people have been doing by slapping "organic" and "free range" labels on stuff with no accountability at all.

At this point something like half my friends have done CSA farm shares, and everyone I know who has tried it has been extremely happy with it. I'm starting to feel left out, but I just can't prepare that many vegetables in my own kitchen and sustain my cripplingly expensive restaurant habit. :-(

Hmm. Maybe I can be the first kid on my block to score a CSB (community supported bakery) share.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:23 pm

poisonfree

Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 1525
Location: Macramento

I nerver shop there anyways,

my roomate calls ithe store "Whole Check"

Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:33 pm

TurnpikeGates

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area

icarus502 wrote: The local/organic conflict is about whether we'd prefer local polyculture to organic industrial monoculture, and the answer is yes. Of course, this also imposes a number of false dilemmas. But, in general, I think it's more important to support sustainability as small-scale and as polyculture (preferably organic/bio) rather than the Sustainability(TM) of industrial organic farming.

Are you using "bio" like the French for organic? And yes... agreed.

Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:45 pm

xGasPricesx

Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 1591

I'm all about Sunflower myself, got one right down the street from me and they have some great stuff. Fuck a Whole Foods and their ridiculously high prices, I have no problem with never shopping there again.

Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 am

TurnpikeGates

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area

poisonfree wrote: I nerver shop there anyways,

my roomate calls ithe store "Whole Check"

(At about 31 seconds)

Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:07 am

redball

Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6877
Location: Northern New Jersey

icarus502 wrote:

the mean wrote:

The Count wrote: These didn't seem so bad ...

• Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines. We should all have the legal right to purchase health insurance from any insurance company in any state and we should be able use that insurance wherever we live. Health insurance should be portable.

• Enact tort reform to end the ruinous lawsuits that force doctors to pay insurance costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. These costs are passed back to us through much higher prices for health care.

Actually, those two are both terrible ideas.

Wow, the first one is an awful idea! How would this not end up like the deregulation of credit cards? Wouldn't small states just act as shelters for companies that want to do things like gouge poor folk for coverage and the like?

It wouldn't be price gouging, it would be denial of coverage. Progressive states like NJ would be royally screwed.

As an example: NJ is one of the few states that requires health insurance to cover fertility treatment. There are states that not only don't require it but have enacted laws that hinder an insurers ability to cover it. When Kevin was born we had to go through this. Details aside, if I lived in NY instead of NJ either Kevin wouldn't have been born or I would be completely broke right now, it would have been at least $10k. That includes if all other factors had been the same, including the insurance company - Cigna at the time.

Allowing cross-state shopping would mean that insurance would centralize on two states: The one with the most favorable coverage laws to allow dirt cheap insurance that covers almost nothing. And the one with the most favorable business laws to prevent liability. The former wouldn't cover anything and would essentially be the only thing that the poor and middle class could even think about. The latter would cover more but be significantly more expensive. All other states would skyrocket for coverage (assuming that there would even be any coverage available that goes by that state's laws) to the point that only the super-rich could afford them, and they probably wouldn't bother. It would create a race to the bottom for which state can repeal laws and enact new ones that would screw the insured the most, thus becoming the more favorable state for the entire industry.

As for tort reform: I'd only favor tort reform if it also limited the amount of liability that an insurance company can cover a doctor for. I'd rather that doctors weren't as liable for making small mistakes, but large or repetitive mistakes should destroy their careers. What we have now enables so much abuse: people suing over the slightest thing. Insurance companies protecting doctors from liability even when the stakes for the patient are incredibly high.

Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:51 am

icarus502kung-pwn master

Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11291
Location: ann arbor

TurnpikeGates wrote:

icarus502 wrote: The local/organic conflict is about whether we'd prefer local polyculture to organic industrial monoculture, and the answer is yes. Of course, this also imposes a number of false dilemmas. But, in general, I think it's more important to support sustainability as small-scale and as polyculture (preferably organic/bio) rather than the Sustainability(TM) of industrial organic farming.

Are you using "bio" like the French for organic? And yes... agreed.

I meant biodynamic, which is a form of organic farming that crazy-ass Steinerites use.

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:04 am

Alias@anticon.com

Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 739

at the risk of sounding like a grumpy, old man...I gotta say that it pains me to go into Whole Foods.

pros: great produce. awesome meats and cheeses. great beer and wine selection.

cons: first and foremost, the prices.

but most of all, the majority of people that shop there are people who I would like to not be around. (for the most part) privleged, croc-wearing, rich people who can't parent for the life of them and think they're saving the world by buying organic breath-mints.

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:05 am

laurapalmer

Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1477

i belong to a CSA in Philly that is awesome (greensgrow).

I have shopped at whole foods when i run out of something critical, but i only do farmers markets or CSA for produce. I do trader joes for like olive oil, prepared stuff.

Kind of works for me, kind of doesn't. I would prefer to mailorder some stuff and be done with anything other than csa/farmers market, but that isn't in the cards yet (due to room/storage/no freezer).

Sunflower is owned by Super Valu, right? Aldi owns trader joes. I think this is phill/ics/mims point that "organic" got very co-opted and that localvore movements are usually more sustainable/responsible.

i would further add that given how many companies are actually owned by corporations (white wave, muir glenn, horizon, etc) the odds are not good that you are getting what you are paying for. dean dairies doesn't care if you get organic milk from an ethical standpoint, they care that you spend money on a higher priced item.

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:39 am

Stumbleweed

Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver

Yeah Sunflower isn't exactly local, but we grow a reasonable amount of produce in CO, so I can get most of my stuff locally there. Their prices are the biggest thing though -- it's cheaper than King Soopers a lot of the time for produce because they sell so much of it and get it from CO farmers.

But yeah, I stop at fruit/chile stands whenever I can. Love those guys. Need to get my green chile on soon. And I do need to start going to the farmer's market we have nearby, but it's in Cherry Creek, which is yuppie fuckhole central, so I've avoided it for the most part. I found a pretty damn awesome co-op for local organic grass-fed meats and some produce that I'm really considering becoming a member of. Mostly for the meat, which was cheaper than grocery store prices but MUCH better since it's coming from so close and was cared for properly.

Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:43 am

Scottie

Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 2829

crash wrote:

it's preferable to have both organic and local of course. but i find that a lot of the time the stuff at the farmers market i go to in baltimore is local and not organic and the stuff at whole foods is organic but not local. i think people put undo emphasis on organic as being good for the environment. sure its good for where ever the stuff is grown but any benifit is canceled out if you're shipping the stuff overseas or even cross country.

Crash,

The market under JFX? There are a couple of organic farms there. Mainly Calvert Farms which I usually do a CSA share for the summer. Also I found if you can get the farmer at a free moment they are happy to tell you the farming practices most have better than organic standards but are too small to worry about the paperwork and hassle of getting certification. A small local farm is usually 10x better than a industrial organic one.