Page 4 of the county budget has the projected student population. (The .pdf is here.) The salient piece is that the projected student population grows to just shy of 80,000 (from the present 60,000) in the next 5 years. This may seem small of me, but I know I will not be teaching class sizes of more than 30. I’ll go back to private industry before that, because I know I just won’t be able to make a difference at that point. Law dictates student/teacher ratios of no more than 21, but that does nothing for the average class size. What also is not taken into account are extremely small classes, or students with special needs that have individual teacher aids assigned (which occurs through federal mandate, and includes federal money).

If we have a 30 percent increase in student population there needs to be an increase in numbers of teachers (that’s the law as it now stands). If cut the pay, and you will lose teachers (I certainly know I cannot afford a pay cut … sorry kids, mom and dad don’t want me teaching). It is well and good that taxes are too high, and that the single largest spend is education, but unless you can come up with a way to stop growth, there is a requirement for more teachers.

And just in case you didn’t know, increase classroom size, and you decrease performance … why do you think home schooling does so well? It isn’t because of “teacher” training, it is directly related to student-”teacher” ratios (even a family with 10 kids has a much lower ratio than a public school). Do you really want to warehouse students?

Comments

Written by Wolverine about 5 years ago.

Brian, when I went to high school in the late 1950′s, it was a very large and central high school in a mostly blue collar city. It was also racially mixed. Just in our graduating class alone we had over 700-800 students. My own classes were usually 35 to 40 students all the way through high school, including almost all academic subjects. School discipline was no-nonsense. Graduation rates were good, with many, many kids going on to college. It was a real transition point between the generations with regard to education, since almost all the parents had only a high school diploma at the max and usually not even that. This same scenario pertained to my brothers all through the 1960′s.

I am curious about your statement that the law dictates a 1-21 teacher to student classroom ratio and that, if your classroom ever reached 30 students, you would opt out of your craft. I think it might help here if you could be specific about why your numbers are so low in comparison to that which many in my generation experienced without major problems in acquiring a good education. In my layman’s opinion, there must be something driving your ratio downward other than the stated ideal that lower ratios make for better student-teacher interfacing. Are there other things which are in need of fixing —disciplinary methods, parental involvement and responsibility, burdensome governmental mandates, or the like — which, if rectified, might render the actual ratio a bit less critical than it seems to be now? What’s your take on that?

One of the things that is somewhat different is that when you or I went to school (before I did I must admit) there were many differences in what was taught in order to graduate and what is demanded for graduation now. It also used to be there were at least three “tracks” into which students were placed … they did not choose the tracts, they were placed there. The idea of not having a high school diploma was not unheard of, nor was it completely without merit.

Today, NCLB dictates that we must graduate an ever increasing number of students, and all those students (outside of “special education”) must have very specific classes as a minimum. I am familiar with the math requirements … in order to graduate, you have to have at least algebra 1 and geometry, with three credits. When I went to school, you did not have to have algebra 1 to graduate with a vocational/technical diploma. I believe next year entering students (i.e., freshmen) must have a math beyond geometry in order to graduate.

Part of the “problem” is that when we went to school, the pool of students in the class was select in many ways. Not only was discipline swift and severe, but it also actually eliminated students from the student body. If a student did something wrong, they might have gotten a suspension and that suspension meant they were out of school and received zeros for the grades during that time. Now a student must be given the work, it must be allowed to be completed and they must be given the opportunity to make it up if they miss something they cannot do outside of class. For that matter, if a student is expelled, they are still entitled to education, but it has to be done outside the school (there are “home-bound” instructors for students that cannot attend school for whatever reasons, and the law “free appropriate public education” (FAPE) requires such treatment).

So what you have is a much different classroom than what you or I ever stepped into. The big plus to that is that many more students actually do learn. Students that would be on the edge when we went to school and then tracked into vo-tech, can still reach performance and have a chance at doing more. I cannot tell you how much smaller class size means in terms of being able to do more with students. If everything else stays the same, and class sizes go to 30, what that means to teachers is not being able to do what we do in terms of getting to the students.

If teachers have more students, they have that much less time to do anything with those that struggle. One other thing that has changed since we were in school is that if our grades were not what our parents expected, we were the ones in trouble (at least that was the case for me). Now if a student does less than expected, the parents are demanding meetings with the teacher and asking why their little angel is doing poorly. Generally, when I tell parents what I do to help children do well, they tend to see it as going above and beyond (I was at school Friday until 5:30 helping a couple of students get trigonometry … Friday before spring break). But I won’t be able to do as much if I have 30 kids in every class. Grading will take more time, and that means the children are not going to get as much of my time for individual help outside the classroom. For me that means I just won’t be able to do as much for the kids. I’m elated when I can help a student understand now. Nothing of the job means anything more than having a student see what is happening and have them say “Oh, now I get it!” Those “light go on” experiences are what motivate me. As I’ve said, it certainly isn’t the pay, so if those experiences become fewer, I won’t enjoy it as much.

One thing my dad always told me was find something you love doing, then find someone crazy enough to pay you to do it. I love making the light come on for students. If I’m run so hard that there isn’t enough time to make that happen, then teaching for me will become just another job. I can earn money easier and more of it elsewhere (I did that for many years).

Written by HFTB about 5 years ago.

You should run for the School Board, Brian. You’d have to quit LCPS, but do what Jen Bergel did and get a job over in Fairfax County. What district are you in now? Your first order of business could be to fire Hatrick and get somebody in here that is capable of cleaning up the mess he has made during his reign.

Is it true that a midde/high school teacher is limited to a maximum of 150 students and 6 out of 8 blocks in the classroom? If so, that means the largest average class size for any teacher would be 25.

Five out of eight in the classroom, 30 per class. You have one planning, and the other is duty. An example might be teach 5 classes, have two study halls, a home room, and one planning period. The schools know that other things take up a lot of time, so they try to make sure you have other time during the school day (for example, guidance councilors need to be brought in on a number of issues, and they are there, for the most part, only during the school day … so if you don’t have any time to see them other than planning, you get to choose between working to get what has to be done for the next day, or seeing a guidance councilor). There are also meetings that are required often enough that it makes it difficult (read impossible) to get what you need done unless you have at least some other time during the day in which to talk to other teachers/staff.

Teaching 5 high school classes requires a lot of extra time … think about a high school English teacher with 150 papers, 3 pages each, that have to be graded in 2 days. In math, we don’t have the volume of paper, but going through each problem to make sure they not only have the right answer, but that what they did was correct, or worse, if it isn’t correct, what they did wrong and why. I know it sometimes takes a minute or more to diagnose a single problem on a 30 or 40 question test. Multiply that by 120 tests (for classes at 24).

Looking at legal maximum size is asking only the question “How can we save money?” If all you want is to warehouse the kids at the cheapest cost, then go for it. But that is not providing an education … I know what it is like having a class of 30 students, and it is not ideal. Is it legal? Yes, but is that all you are interested in doing?

If the answer to the last question is yes, then I’m in the wrong job. I won’t work for people that the only thing they care about is doing the job for the least cost. If they don’t care about the quality of the job done, then I’ll find employment elsewhere. But that is me personally.

I understand wanting to get the costs down, but I would want to explore *every* alternative to doing that in a way that impacts the teachers and the students first. I’d want to keep class sizes small and cut nearly everything else either out or down to a minimum … with the first item on the list reducing the spend on capital projects. That’s me though.

What I dread is that the projections for the future are dire. If class sizes this year are 22-23, and we see a 30% increase in student population, then the schools are just not big enough to hold the number of students we *will* have (very few classrooms have room for 30 desks at Park View). So adding 20,000 students over five years will require more schools … which goes back to my original question. How do you pay for the growth?

Add a $30,000 per unit cost to a housing unit for capital improvements? It might have a breaking effect on the growth as well as provide funds for the infrastructure needed if that were started, but I’ll guarantee land owners are going to hate the reduction in values they see for their undeveloped land. Frankly, I don’t see much way around *some* kind of infrastructure charge and still have the county solvent in the long run. (A $30,000 fee for an occupancy permit would do it, but boy would that rile a lot of people that think of development as a right as has been the case for many years here.)

Building large schools could reduce the problem … a high school of 4000 students would have some savings of scale if from nothing else but athletic facilities. But the way things are right now, we are between a rock and a hard place in many ways.

You can’t squeeze blood from a turnip, and that means you can’t put the whole thing on the back of teachers … they don’t deserve it, and the good ones will leave (just like in private sector jobs, good workers can find a job in another company, which means another district in this case). Really dedicated teachers might stick by out of a concern for children, but lots of teachers that teach here and live somewhere else anyway will not think our (Loudoun county’s) children are any more worthy of their dedication than another district’s children. If the pro/con ratio drops below what they can do elsewhere, they will move.

For those that don’t use LCPS (I send my oldest to a private religious school, and we home school the other two that are still living at home) I can see understand the “who cares what public schools are like” feelings. Yet I know also that most of the county residents do send their kids to public schools. For them, they want a good education, but they also want the same level of frugal spending as they exercise themselves.

I could see someone that has a million dollar mortgage having a cow at the costs if they are “house poor” and have seen the value of their home go through the floor (my assessment dropped by almost 50% from a couple of years ago, and I don’t know as I’d be able to sell for the assessed value now). Someone in that position is on the edge, and a tax hike could easily send them over the edge. (There are reasons I was able to go from a six figure income to working as a teacher without losing my house, car or going into bankruptcy, but I don’t know as many other people would survive as well … I am very blessed by my God.)

Unless I leave teaching, I would not run for the school board … and while that isn’t what I perceive at this time, you never know what might happen if the 290+ cuts occur, or if benefits are cut so I cannot afford teaching any more. I’ve had a negative cash flow every year I’ve taught. I cannot keep it up forever, and I’ve been hoping to get to break even with another step increase (though that isn’t going to happen in the foreseeable future). In one way it is sad that I would think about it … I love helping the kids. But I just don’t know how long I can continue making so little money that I qualify for an earned income credit on my federal taxes. At some point, I’m going to have to either start making more money, or get a different job.

Written by Wolverine about 5 years ago.

Brian speaks of possible savings from building high schools for up to 4000 students. I have wondered why Loudoun always builds out rather than up when constructing new schools or even considering additions to older schools. Seems to me they would get a savings on land costs by building up. (In fact, I am recalling vaguely that there is now a multi-story school on the drawing board somewhere around the county). O.K., I’m an old timer so don’t rub it in; but my primary school was two stories, my junior high school was four stories (five counting the clock tower); and my high school was three stories. Neither students nor teachers had much trouble navigating those steps and making classes on time, even with visits to lockers. The two gyms for phys ed were an integral part of the building. The varsity basketball court was built so that it could be transformed into a large stage and auditorium for drama or similar events, with a “Little Theater” next to it for smaller productions. Eventually a separate fieldhouse was built next door in the 1980′s; but, during our years, the consolidated plan seemed to work pretty well. No need for a separate basketball facility and auditorium. If you stood outside the school, you couldn’t tell really where the gymnasiums were in the complex. It was a real blending job from the 1920′s and 1930′s with various modernizing updates. And we were a Class A school, meaning our varsity sports were at the top level of state high school competition. The vo-tech school was right behind the high school and had a basement (foundry and car shop) plus four stories. Students from both schools moved effortlessly between the two, even in winter. Kids walked or came in by bus, so there was no need to find extra land for student parking. We had a combined football field and track meet facility (one of the winningest football programs in the country), but varsity baseball and varsity sofball were played at well maintained, city-owned facilities without the need for the school board to purchase extra land. Student use of cars was very limited, with exceptions made for special cases only, to avoid the need for more land and keep students from clogging up residential streets. Just some thoughts from the past.

I’d be surprised if you school wasn’t AAAA for sports (Loudoun is A and AA for one or two schools). And thanks for the support.

The real issue to me is how do we pay for what we already *know* is coming down the tube. This year debt service is 150 million; in five years debt service will hit 200 million. If the county is to come up with the dollars, either the housing bubble has to come back, or they are going to have to raise the rates. You can’t cut $50 million from teacher salaries and keep teachers in the classrooms. Especially if you asking them to increase the workload at the same time. It might be that some subject areas that have lots of surplus applications won’t be a problem, but for those like math and science, you won’t be able to fill the positions, and the law also requires “highly qualified” teachers (math teachers that are certified to teach math) or the parents have the right to pull their kids out and put them in any private school they want on the county’s dime (including $25k/year academies that make LCPS look thrifty).

Part of what I see as a problem is that we voted bonds into the picture … they are going to clean our clock. The dollar figure per household at the top of the housing bubble would have supported the bonds, but because values have dropped to half (or less) so have the dollars per housing unit for taxes. We opened up the wallet and took out the credit card (that was us, not the BOS … *we* voted for bonds to be issued) when the money was pouring in, but it isn’t doing so any more, and we have to make good on the credit we used. What’s worse, is now we are going to need more money, and we don’t have any spare “rainy day funds” from when times were good. (We do have really pretty buildings, but that, in retrospect seems to have been a foolish spend when we’re now looking at having to increase class sizes and cut personnel to meet budgets.)

Written by Barbara Munsey about 5 years ago.

Several items–Wolverine, some of the changes are accessibility related. I went to a three story high school over in Arlington, built in the mid 60s. No elevators, not accessible.

Speaking of blood from a rock, the bloody battles over Loudoun school size are epic. Some people are on board with a significant increase in capacity (which still wouldn’t approach what some districts do) while others are appalled at the “huge” size now approved–~1350 for an MS, 1800 for an HS–and claim it would be “better and cheaper” to build more much smaller schools more closely integrated into each community (however “community” is determined on any given day.

While there is the possibility for discussion of adaptive reuse of existing structures in some cases, the fact is obtaining MORE sites when we can’t find ANY that “suit” most people would not be cheaper, and our cumbersome land-use process is costly too.

Brian, do you live in Fairfax and teach in Loudoun?

A few years ago, the Loudoun capital costs attached to each rezoned home were already well over $30K. They just got bumped up over $50K, so I heard. Look for another spate of by right construction (no infrastructure) to deal with that when things turn around again.

Written by dans about 5 years ago.

Every school I went to was multi-story. I imagine the excuse that LCPS would roll out is the ADA..

Written by Barbara Munsey about 5 years ago.

Dans, how long ago did you go to school? I graduated HS in 1975, and a LOT has changed since then.

Written by dans about 5 years ago.

Barbara,

I graduated in 1971.. I agree, much has changed since then. Back then we used interactive chalk boards..

Written by Barbara Munsey about 5 years ago.

Oh my gosh, so did we!

And sometimes, very rarely, we had…overhead projectors! On VERY special presentations on BIG subjects!

As far as building codes etc, that has been a big change, particularly with all the layers of environmental law that have been added.

Some of those laws have a lot to do with the size of sites too.

Written by dans about 5 years ago.

Yes, and like cavemen we had to use grease pencils ! Oh such a handicapped youth we had..

The HS I graduated from in Arlington, W&L, is undergoing a major renovation. Think the new structure is 4-5 stories. My son had a basketball game there last year, a real walk down memory lane. Seems like the same leaking steam radiators in the bathrooms STILL had not been fixed..

Written by HFTB about 5 years ago.

“… why do you think home schooling does so well?” I would guess it is largely because the kids are fortunate to have parents that care and are heavily involved in their lives.

Personally, I think small class size is overrated, but it’s something the teachers union loves because smaller classes = more teachers = more union dues. Unfortunately, more teachers also means a dilution of the talent pool. Quality trumps quantity anytime.

My kids never were in a class of less than 23 students through elementary school and some of the classes had upwards of 29 kids. They did fine.

I never saw a class of less than 30 students, and the more typical number was ~40. Somehow Jacob learned to do math, reason, read and write. Spelling is another matter.

Written by Cathymac about 5 years ago.

My elementary classes always had approx 30 kids per class, that is unheard of in LCPS present day. MS had some very large classes too, particularly for english and social studies. I had a retired USMC Lt Col (pacific/Iowa Jima) that taught 7th grade social studies – NO ONE acted up in his class.

Funny thing on overhead projectors (which are very handy for artwork and school projects btw), my son’s 3rd grade teacher still uses his in lieu of the chalkboard every day.

Written by Leej about 5 years ago.

The schools under construction in Loudoun right now are two story.

Better economics, once you go two story elevators are required a large expense item. Better to go 4 stories or even more and that requires one roof and foundation for all those floors.

Not to mention the huge savings in land costs. The problem these days too much interference from parents etc who are not experts in design or construction and make the professionals job much harder. Example I was designing a home many years ago for a ambulance chaser lawyer he would not listen to me or the builder. He ended up with the ugliest and stupidest floor plan in the neighborhood. He did admit he should of listened to us after his home was finished and it was a lot harder then he thought to come up with a great design which he did not get. Many years ago I was designing and building a very large home in McLean and the guy next door was building his own home stealing my subs many a time. He came over to me one day and said can I get my subs to do a better job and finish things like they do for me. I laughed and replied I could of built your home better and cheaper and still made a decent profit then what you are doing. Point is people think building and designing is simple and easy. Well it is not. And the same rules apply to schools hire a team that specializes in designing and building schools and the parents and school board should stay out it. The right pros know how to save money if left to do their jobs. Building and designing is a extremely tough business.

And subs will take advantage of the non pros. I see it every day. Build schools 4 stories or more. Orient the school to best take advantage of the sun and environment to save energy. There are many passive ways to save energy costs without spending big bucks. Design flex walls so classrooms can be reconfigured to the ever changing amount of students per class. Use technology that has proven itself over the years. The newest greatest thing that has not been around for awhile can end up very costly if it breaks or does not live up to the hype. And I could go on and on. Big thing is hire seasoned pros designing and building our schools and listen to them. They have been there and done that many many times.

Written by HFTB about 5 years ago.

There was a good piece in the WaPo Outlook section yesterday about online education and how it could be used to reduce costs. But guess what group is aligned against it? None other than the teachers unions, who stand to lose members because virtual classes would replace classroom teachers.

Written by Wolverine about 5 years ago.

I think Leej has an excellent point about the economics of scale. No doubt schools will have accessibility requirements, and I agree that, if you have to go for the expense of special features like elevators, you might as well build further up and save on the overall structural and land costs.

Out of curiosity I did a map comparison between Park View High School in the Park and my old high school campus as I remember its configuration then. The difference between the two land parcels is not all that great when I eliminate our old football practice field, which was donated to the city by a philanthropist anyway. The point is that here we have a single school, Park View, with the usual sports amenities. My old campus actually had three schools together in a space not that much greater than the Park View facilities. The old 4-story junior high school and the 3-story senior high were on that campus, along with the big vo-tech structure, which in itself was the chief facility of its kind serving a city of 50,000 and the principal feeder for our blue collar city of young people into small business and major industry. Most of the high school kids had some classes in the vo-tech building (drafting, art, etc.) and the vo-tech kids had their academic classes in the high school. There was adequate green space between the schools and even room for a stand-alone power plant which serviced all three schools. One of the big differences: parking. The faculty at my old school had parking. Permission for kids to bring cars to school was very limited. I often look at Park View and am amazed at the space devoted to parking on three sides of the main building, especially the parking for the kids.

I also take a look at the Park View baseball and softball fields. Everybody likes to have a homefield; but if you climb over the fence behind Park View into Claude Moore Park and go past the new aquatic center, you will run into a new baseball complex consisting of five different diamonds. It reminds me that my brothers were good varsity baseball players on some top-notch baseball teams. Every home game was played on a city-owned field which was once a professional facility for Class C teams. Far better than any school-maintained field. Sometimes I think that we all like compact facilities which belong to us alone; but, when the budget starts to hurt, you may have to look for some less costly alternatives.

Brian — When I was in school, our state rated high schools only as A-B-C-D, depending on size. Class A was for the largest schools in the state. Our town had two of them then, our school and a new Catholic Central High School. The other was in the town immediately adjacent. You talk about bitter and hard fought athletic rivalries! Robert Zuppke, the legendary coach at the U. of Illinois, was once the football coach at our high school way back when.

A lot of stuff here that I’d like to comment on, first is I live and work in Loudoun. While yes, I am paid by taxes, I also pay property taxes. A tax increase is likely to be more than what I would receive in any pay increase (like all county employees, we haven’t had even a cost of living adjustment), so I’m in this as much as anyone else. If I lived in Fairfax, I’d be crazy to work in Loudoun (the pay is higher, they already have built out the county, so the taxes are lower, and the benefits are edging higher).

Things have change since most of us were in school. When I went to school, not every child had to take Algebra I, Geometry, and some additional, higher-level math. Many could take two business maths and a course that was mostly doing checkbooks and calculating best purchase prices. Now the students that would have been in those classes are (by law) in Algebra and Geometry. When each student in each class was taught exactly the same way, and they either got it, or they failed (and that was considered the student’s problem) large class sizes are no big deal (still a lot of work, but this is not then).

Wolv,

I’m with you on facilities as being a way to save money.

All,
Virginia doesn’t have a teachers’ union, and the “association” (Virginia/Loudoun Educators Association, VEA/LEA) might have lobbying power, but they cannot negotiate like a union. Virginia is a right to work state, and I’m glad of it (I’d quit in a heartbeat if I had to join a union).

Also, it isn’t the teachers’ unions that produced the work that says smaller class sizes produce better results. While most education research I think of being highly suspect, even those researchers that want to downplay class size have to admit small class size always has an impact on student performance on independent tests. Think about where you want your own kids (those of you that have school age children). Do you really think putting them in with 38 other children is going to allow the same quality of instruction as having them in a class of 15 all other things being equal?

I know how easy it is to take a swipe at class sizes and teacher pay. Those are obvious, direct costs. But those are also the things that will matter. Good teachers will leave for either reason. Would you stick around if your company doubled your work load or cut your pay around here? There are too many places to get another job.

HFTB,
Home schooling works because the “teacher” knows each “student” better than any other classroom situation, partly because of the “small size” and partly because they live together. The more time I spend with students (and I try to spend a lot of time with them) the better they do. If there are 40 in a classroom, there is no way to spend much time (one-on-one) with any of them.

As for online learning, I’m not a big fan. BJU has a satellite program that one of my daughters used and it was nowhere near as good as us teaching. My son used an online course last year and we had the same experience. It isn’t anywhere near the same quality … and I might be a teacher, but I’m a parent first. I won’t be putting my son in any online courses if I have a choice.

Written by Cathymac about 5 years ago.

Brian,
Virginia is a right to work state and while no one is forced to join a union some public service jobs have unions they can join and/or associations that are a good idea to join. There are CYA liability issues that are covered by these associations, with free legal services and insurances, that are very good ideas to carry. The associations do carry some lobbying power but their real power (as with the VEA) is they have a hold on local school boards and the ears of the local media that will help them with public opinion. I can’t count how many stories the WashPost has carried on local school budget negotiations that doesn’t lead with a quote from the VEA or local chapter.

“Would you stick around if your company doubled your work load or cut your pay around here? There are too many places to get another job.”

This stmt comment seems a bit naive given the current unemployment situation. Unfortunately there are employers (public and private) that take advantage of the current employment climate and know they can double an employee’s workload because they have nowhere to go. I know too many people that have been victims of this economy and believe me, if they found a job that offered near the same pay as their last job but required double the work load – they’d jump at it. I’m not condoning employers putting the screws to their employees, but welcome to the real world. In the private sector there are budgets to meet, and if Joe Smith can’t meet the requirements of his job (even if they are double the work for the same money) – they get rid of Joe Smith and hire Sally. She will work for less money and not bitch because Sally is just happy to be employed. My employer is currently getting quite a bit more out of staff then 2-3 years ago, it sucks – but most of us are just happy to be employed.

Written by Wolverine about 5 years ago.

Hmmm — After I made those remarks about the Park View baseball field, I remembered that there is a school around here which has done exactly what I described. My son was on the junior varsity and varsity baseball squads at Park View. Whenever they played away against Osbourn High School in Manassas, the games were always played at the IBM Complex along Route 28. Osbourn never needed to buy land to construct their own varsity field. They had jv and varsity games on separate fields in the same complex.

I understand what you are saying, especially with technical hires and H1b visa fraud rampant. But there are still jobs out there in this area. Northern Virginia has about 4% unemployment, which is way below national averages. I have heard of people looking for 6 to 12 months for a job, but generally it is possible to find work here. I know at least 2 people that have changed jobs recently by choice … had one job, didn’t like it, and moved. It took them about 8 months each, and they were very picky about the job they took.

Actually Brian, The unemployment rate in VA is about 7.6% – I’m sure it’s a little lower in NOVA. I don’t know what industry your friends are working in, but I would categorize them as the exception not the norm. I don’t know anyone leaving any work, anywhere to “find another job by choice”. We must hang in different circles.

Given that the Federal Gov’t articifically insulates this area in employment, all of the people I know out of work are in private industry. I suppose going from one federal agency to another is possible and just about everyone I know has applied for multiple fed jobs.