Fear and Loathing On Election Day

The last few weeks have been torture, both literally and figuratively. Not only are we as a nation on the brink of economic disaster, but we must, in the midst of this financial confusion, also select the leader who will hopefully pull us from the edge and in a direction of promise and prosperity.

I am an optimistic person by nature. My basic philosophy in life is: hope for the best, prepare for the worst. As election day approaches I scan the news, waiting for the disaster I am sure awaits us that will take our already dire situation and make it worse. For me, as an Obama supporter, that could take many forms. Obviously, losing the election to the McCain/Palin ticket would be personally disastrous, but that in itself isn't what worries me.

What worries me is the process, not necessarily the outcome.

While I am not an African-American, I feel their collective pain as a citizen of the world. We have come a long way since slavery, Lincoln, and the Civil Rights Movement, but we haven't achieved nirvana yet. There are pockets of racist people in this country, and they aren't just ultra-conservative Republicans. There are plenty of racially confused people who are registered Democrats, especially here in Ohio. The polls show the race is tightening, as it usually does this close to the end. We honestly have no idea what will happen on November 4.

Despite the polls leaning in Obama's favor, I can't quiet this nagging, unresolved, uneasy feeling I have. Is it paranoia, fear or irrational panic? Or is it perhaps some lingering 2000 or 2004 election hangover? I just don't trust the system. This is why I chose not to take part in the early voting process. When you live in a state with a history of voter problems, have had your lawn sign stolen right from your front yard, and have lost the last two elections despite your best efforts, it's understandable that you might feel a bit… mistrusting.

It was painful in 2000 with Al Bore (typo, but I am leaving it) and demoralizing in 2004 with John Scary (ok, I did that on purpose), but we are now possibly on the verge of electing our first president of African-American heritage. In a country, mind you, which only 50-some-odd years ago would have made him drink at a separate water fountain than his opponent. Seriously, if people tell you race isn't a factor in this election, they are being very disingenuous.

That's not to say that if folks don't vote for Obama, they are racist. That's absurd too. But as a country, we have a history of disenfranchising black voters from the election process and with all the irregularities and voter fraud we've seen in the last two elections, how can a person (especially a Democrat) not be paranoid.

So, yes I worry about my vote not counting; I worry about the votes of minorities not being counted. But, what worries me most is the crushing disappointment that so many will feel if the dream we are all counting on is not actualized.

I know Republicans are afraid of Barack Obama. Change is scary, challenging the norm can frighten anyone. I have been scared for the last eight years under an administration I find foreign and unrepresentative of my core beliefs. But I survived, and so will they. Barack Obama, if we give him the chance, could be the greatest thing to happen to this country in decades. I feel instinctively, despite the scary propaganda machine from the GOP, that this man is poised to do great things.

But this can only happen if we stop being afraid, and right now, fear is about all many of have left. So next Tuesday, I will cast my vote at my local polling station, just as I did in 2000, and 2004, and then I will go home and pray that if nothing else, the process was fair, and the will of the people was done.

And above all, I will hope for the best and brace myself for the worst.

What I find troubling is that an otherwise nice and intelligent person like Dawn – and many others I know – can feel the way she does about a candidate who is so transparently manipulative and has so little of substance to offer.

Obama is NOT our savior. He’s just another political hack with rehashed versions of failed old ideas and warmed-over cliches. Throw in some racebaiting and some thinly veiled socialism and you get something utterly unappealing. Combine his obvious personal weakness with the rapacious band of criminals in Congress and you have a recipe for utter disaster.

But even more troubling – the democrats haven’t even lost yet and they’re already acting completely unhinged, with threats of rioting, more and more accusations of racism, every kind of personal attack on McCain and Palin and Republicans in general. As a group they’ve run the dirtiest, most scurrilous campaign since the days of Nixon, tried and failed to crucify Palin, and generally acting like bullies and fascists. If their current behavior is any indication we’re in for very, very dark times if Obama gets elected.

Dave is so right. Bush and company have been the “light and the life” of our great nation and Prince John and Sister Sarah represent our only hope for the future.

They, of course, have performed admirably, divinely even, in keeping their campaign wholly on the positive, “smiley faced” side, always paying homage to the opposition (deserved or not) while humbly, but sincerely putting forth their grand vision of the world to come if only the voting public will grant them the opportunity to serve.

But, the “Dark Lord” Obama and his slavering side kick, Joe, through their evil, deceitful, anti-American, terrorist embracing campaign have hoodwinked at least half the nation into becoming veritable mindless “Stepford” voters obviously rendered helpless through some type of nefarious mind bending or mass hypnosis causing them to march in lock step to the polls to “touch” Obama’s name on the screen or hang his “chad”, only to awaken come November 5th in utter horror at what they have wrought.

By the next day or two after the “voting” most all of us will have received Mao’s Red Book in the mail and been given our marching orders to pick up our gray pajamas and report to work at the collective.

Only Dave knows the horrible truth. Hopefully, by next week, he will have his compound adequately armed, ready to fight the good fight in defense of liberty and the American way. It’ll be tantamount to another siege of “The Alamo” that will be long remembered in the storied lore of a once great, but forgotten land.

Sad, sad.

B

pablo

Nalle is truly a piece of work. I find it revealing that he will instantly write a hysterical story about a girl that says she was mugged at an atm machine by an obama supporter and tattooed with a backward B. Also his ranting on about ACORN. Did anyone else notice besides me that he has not written an actual article on ACORN? That cause its typical republican hype.

The real story about voting fraud, has little or nothing to do with an 8 buck an hour guy making up Mickey Mouse names, but something far more sinister and evil afoot.

That has to do with a combination of factors, one is the extremely uncalled for long lines for people that for the most part are poor. The average wait time for a white suburban voter in 2004 was 18 minutes, in the poor/democratic neighborhoods it was 3.5 hours, and many had to wait up to 10-12 hours to vote. That is criminal, and yet so little reported, that it makes me want to puke.

Then there is the problem of black box voting, casting your vote into the black pit of fascism, run by the republican machine. I was watching a voting movie tonight (url below) and it was truly appalling at what went on in 2004, let alone 2000.

Nalle will ALWAYS lead you astray if you listen to him, fortunately most dont. He cares not one whit about the real problem, and would have you think that he does. On this site he is the guy who will alway point the finger at the wrong direction as his argument will fleece you blind, and then his boy Clavy will come kickin along to pick up the slack.

There is a guy named Stephen Spoonamore who is an expert in the field of cryptography, computer science, and atm/debit machines in particular. He is a lifetime republican as well, he claims in no uncertain terms that Diebold machines were made to steal elections, and why. He is articulate, educated in his field, and very convincing.

I have two links for those that are interested. The first is Spoonamore’s movie, and the second one is a new movie called STEALING AMERICA: Vote by Vote.

I can always tell which way the wind is blowing by reading Nalle, its always in the opposite direction, and I am glad as hell that he disagrees with me on everything.

Stephen Spoonamore on Diebold Machines

STEALING AMERICA: Vote by Vote

As I have said repeatedly on this site to the consternation of conspiracy phobia folks, your vote dont count! If you want it to count you better damned well make your voices heard, and stop acting like fucking sheep.

I am not an Obama fan either, however the republicans have stole it twice, the third time is the charm. Beware.

The others commenting here are falling into their usual patterns and fighting modes.

I want to leave that altogether and excoriate you just a bit for the way you characterize the junior Senator from Illinois who is the Democratic candidate.

He is not an African American or “black” man in the sense that most Americans view black people. Such people are best epitomized by General Colin Powell (ret.) or Bill Cosby. Their roots are solidly in this country, despite the larger amount of melanin in their skin.

Barack Hussein Obama II is a man whose father comes from Kenya, a man who has firm roots on the African continent as well as the North American one. In addition, he has strong cultural ties that extend far beyond the borders of your country. He is much like me, a man whose mother is a native of the American continent, but whose father was from a different world entirely. I am properly called, in the parlance of the States, a “fist generation American” – so is Obama.

Looking beyond the snake oil that each candidate sells, if you intend to vote, at least comprehend what you seek to vote for, Dawn. Do not be fooled by appearances.

Jonathan Scanlan

Ya know something…. the real reason you should elect the Big-O is that he can actually lead.

Now I know this sounds crazy, but the fact that he can run such an effective campaign shows you he’s a leader. Heck, his cool during the economic crisis should tell you that.

McCain’s organizational abilities aren’t anywhere near the levels that Obama’s are at. Regardless of what you might say about substance, it’s skill that really matters.

A Freudian slip that comes from reading too much about your elections in America.

There will be elections here in early 2009, probably in early February. But, frankly they are not worth all that much attention, in my eyes. Shuffling the same deck of badly bent cards does not give anyone a better hand.

Other than his skin color, Obama is the norm of American politics in every sense of the word. He belongs to one of the two major parties. He’s pandered and lied his ass off, telling people what they want to hear to get where he is. He’s much more hype than subsatnce relying on catchphrases like “change” and “hope” rather than honest practical solutions to our problems.

Real change Dawn, is voting for a third party, not one of the two parties that has created the problems we have today. But if it makes you feel better to vote for this phony media creation you call “the one” while placing all of the blame for America’s problems on the GOP, by all means don’t let me interupt your ignorant delusions with something as mundane as the truth.

“Barack Obama, if we give him the chance, could be the greatest thing to happen to this country in decades. I feel instinctively, despite the scary propaganda machine from the GOP, that this man is poised to do great things.”

I feel sorry for you.

Pablo would you prefer brain dead Obama supporters chanting monosyllabic mantras such as “hope” and “change” and insiting that Obama is going to solve all of our problems to Nalle?

The fact is that Obama is a media creation. He’s a novelty. An empty suit. He was president of Haravard Law Review. Whoopty friggin do. He has no real accomplishments other than that to speak of and anything that knows anything about higher education knows that positions like that are also about politics so it’s really not that impressive.

The fact is that if Obama weren’t half black we wouldn’t even be discussing him today because it would be someone else the Dems nominated. The idiots on this site will call me a racist but I’m used to be called a racist by a bunch of race baiting leftist morons. I’d rather be honest than politically correct.

I’m not voting for McCain because I can’t stand the guy and don’t think he’d make a good president but it’s very sad to see how gullible and how pathetically simple minded so many AMericans are to have fallen for the Chicago charlatan.

It’s not just the presidential election we need to look out for. Sensing they’re going to lose this election, The GOP has started hedging their bets by encouraging us to put the GOP back in charge of Congress…

…hoping we’ll forget that when they were in charge:

The quid pro quo, they are trying to pay down to the religious right by attempting repeatedly to pass Taliban-style religious legislation instead of addressing more pressing problems with the economy allowing banks to write loans to people who were unaware that last year they’re mortgage payments would double or tripple causing the forclosure mess we’re in now..

Instead of paying attention to pressing national problems, they put everything aside in order to concentrate on subpoenaing comatose Terri Schiavo to the point of calling Bush back from on of his many multi-month vacations, in case he was needed to sign the legislation.

While trying to whip us into a frenzy over a federal law against gay marriage, they hoped we wouldn’t notice them sneaking George Bush a blanket pardon for war crimes he hadn’t (hasn’t?) committed yet.

A petty and wasted legislative session in order to rename the congressional cafeteria’s french fries, “freedom fries” because a few congressmen were pissed at the French.

Crowing over passing legislation to protect thousands of miles of our southern border… with a 700 mile fence (that still hasn’t been built yet two years later)

The imfamous Alaskan bridge to nowhere

A Republican bill to set asside $20 million for the “War in Iraq Victory Celebration”… which passed.

I won’t even go into the sex scandals.

The NSA spying on people without warrants, and our phone and financial records being examined without regulation or oversight.

Rewriting the War Powers Act so Bush can ignore the the Geneva Conventions

States becoming so frustrated with the GOP congress, that they had to resort to raising the minimum wage on their own, because the GOP-led Congress couldn’t do it.

Our national debt in the year 2000 was $20 Trillion. According to the Government Accountability Office and taking into account unfounded liabilities such as Medicare and Social Security, at the end of the 2005 fiscal year our national debt was at $43 trillion and climbing.

i don’t want to use the word “scary”…hmm, maybe “sad” is the right word: that applies to comments like dave’s and arch’s. the completely arrogant and condescending attitude that people can’t actually maintain different viewpoints without somehow being less than intelligent. it’s this attitude that has put the republican party in the state it’s in.

“What I find troubling is that an otherwise nice and intelligent person like Dawn – and many others I know – can feel the way she does about a candidate who is so transparently manipulative and has so little of substance to offer.”

Other than his skin color, Obama is the norm of American politics in every sense of the word. He belongs to one of the two major parties. He’s pandered and lied his ass off, telling people what they want to hear to get where he is. He’s much more hype than subsatnce relying on catchphrases like “change” and “hope” rather than honest practical solutions to our problems.

Real change Dawn, is voting for a third party, not one of the two parties that has created the problems we have today. But if it makes you feel better to vote for this phony media creation you call “the one” while placing all of the blame for America’s problems on the GOP, by all means don’t let me interupt your ignorant delusions with something as mundane as the truth.

Jet, in his comment immediately subsequent enumerated the Republican sins while in power.

But he ignores the fact that the Democrats are cut from a similar cloth and while for a short time in the 1930’s and 1940’s might have been the party of the people, the party of hope and change, they especially since the 1980’s, have merely become a shadow of that tradition and are just as rich and greedy as the most greedy and wasteful Republicans, who are more like the carpetbaggers of the late 1860’s and 1870’s than anything else.

The term “republocrat” is a fitting and accurate epithet. The term “vulture” is more pithy, and gets to the point a lot faster.

The remnants of the New Deal Democratic Party are far and few between in the United States.

So we can expect to continue to see the NSA tap phones;

We can expect to see more wasted sessions of Congress – but the topics will be different and just as irrelevant to the crises facing your nation;

We can expect a smart boy like Obama to note carefully how Bush has concentrated the powers of the presidency, and use them far more effectively, both covertly and overtly, while covering his own shredding of the United States costitution with mellifluous pear shaped tones singing paeans to hope, change and opportunity.

We have already seen how Obama operates in Kenya, but most of you refuse to pay attention to the real record the man has.

I focus on Obama not because I am opposed to him succeeding to the presidency in your nation – quite the contrary; for my selfish purposes as an Israeli, he is just what the doctor ordered.

No. I focus on Obama because it is unlikely that you will choose McCain when all is said and done on 4 November. Were you more likely to choose McCain, I’d focus my ire and contempt on him instead. But the election appears to be Obama’s to lose.

One question only remains. Will Bush cede his position willingly?

Cindy D

RE #6

Pablo,

I have seen that Stealing America: Vote by Vote documentary. It is something every voter should see. Thanks for posting that.

Lisa Solod Warren

Get Greg Palast’s Steal Back the Vote comic book. It’s a free download.

troll

…perhaps there will be a military coup – what self-respecting General would allow his country to be turned over to a Marxist – ?

hoard salt and pepper

Cindy D

Dave,

I have news for you. It isn’t just Democrats and independents who scorn McCain and Palin and recognize that Obama is the better choice. It the conservative GOP–at least the smartest ones.

For many conservatives, Mr Obama embodies qualities that their party has abandoned: pragmatism, competence and respect for the head rather than the heart. Mr Obama’s calm and collected response to the turmoil on Wall Street contrasted sharply with Mr McCain’s grandstanding.

McCain is left with the voters who think Barack Obama is a Marxist and believe Sarah Palin would be a competent president. And maybe George Will will hold his nose and vote for McCain, but maybe he’ll think about Sarah Palin in the White House and quietly cast his secret ballot for Obama.

Look, I have done a fair amount of research on both candidates. I truly have. Read all sorts of point of views. For a while, I felt that Obama, while a natural fit, was boring and wasn’t all that “enthused” about voting for him, but I have since come around to truly feeling instinctively that this man is a leader with exemplary qualities and good, sound judgment. The right man at the right time. I am not a blind follower, I do my homework.

I just don’t want another divided country, that scares me more than Palin — and that’s saying something.

Clavos

I just don’t want another divided country

Dawn, I agree with you there. Unfortunately, I think that regardless of which one of these candidates is elected, the result will be continued divisiveness.

The reason I think so, is because of the polls — each candidate is polling near half the voters, so half of ’em will be disappointed, regardless of outcome.

The rancor and vituperation on the part of supporters on both sides completes the equation.

First: I am bored to tears with Arch’s and others’ condescension. Their assumptions about Obama are unfounded and will be proven wrong. Obama is far from being an “empty suit.”

In consideration of the two major candidates’ executive experience, it is no small feat that Obama has, in fact, run a remarkable campaign starting from the day he announced his candidacy in Springfield. Obama’s campaign organization is a wonder to behold. It is organized down to the enth detail.

The same can hardly be said of the McCain effort. We are now less than a week from the election and he hasn’t found a consistent message yet. Rather, he has bounced around trying vainly to latch onto some real set of policy positions. Failing that, he has repeatedly resorted to character assassinaton and innuendo. His choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate was emblematic of his desparation. While he enjoyed an initial bounce from people excited about seeing a famale candidate who didn’t look like a bus hit her on the dais, Palin’s glow has dimmed considerably, most notably because she has herself proven to be, uh, rather dim.

I disagree to some extent with Clavos regarding how the country will remain divided. For some it most certainly will. However, should Obama win, and then prove his detractors wrong, it may be another story. I suppose the same could be said for McCain. Each side has its respective expectations and/or fears of the candidates they support and those they oppose.

It is my opinion that Obama will not disappoint his followers, and he will surprise his opposition. I believe he may well turn out to be an extraordinary leader who will NOT prove to be a socialist or a communist, or a terrorist sympathizer or Jew hater. Sorry Ruvy. I believe you are wrong in your assertions regarding Obama’s cultural ties. He will be an “American” president. I truly hope that he does lend a more sympathetic ear to the Palestinians, who are, regardless of your feelings, people worthy of life just as you are. But I sincerely doubt that Obama would in any way forsake Israel – if for no other reason, than to do so would be political suicide.

As an aside, the U.S. presents somewhat of a conundrum as regards its support of Israel. As I’m sure you know well, Ruvy, there is no great love for Jews in the U.S. yet, there is almost rabid support of Israel headed up largely by christian fundamentalists. I believe that particular support is tied in with their view of the coming battle at Armageddon and the role Israel is to play in that scenario. To be saved, all you have to do is accept Christ as your savior. So, get with the program.

No, Clav, the losers will not be happy regardless of who wins. How those feelings either change or just lay (or is it lie) and fester is largely up to the winning candidate, and how he discharges his duties over the next four years.

I find it interesting that Bush and his sara-gates love to brag that there hasn’t been a terrorist attack on his watch since 911…

duh?

The terrorist attack on 911 was on HIS watch. There’s also the question of what Obama would do in a similar situation…

…one thing he wouldn’t do is sit in an elementary classroom for 7 minutes AFTER BEING INFORMED HIS COUNTRY WAS UNDER ATTACK, reading “My Pet Goat” and then plot the military attack of the WRONG country!

Dave can be proud of his fellow Texans. A recent poll shows that 23% of the Lone Star citizenry still believe that Obama is a muslim. It’s clear that a large number of Texans will go to the polls equipped with the “right stuff.” These are probably the same people who spend time sniffing around Area 51 in NM and cling to conspiracy theories regarding JFK’s assassination and the 9/11 attacks.

Baritone, this is the home state of Ron Paul AND Alex Jones. I’m surprised it’s as low as 24$.

And I do agree with your earlier comment. It is indeed truly remarkable that Obama has come as far as he has given his total lack of qualifications, horrifying past associations and repugnant beliefs. Quite an accomplishment.

Baritone, you do not understand anything I’ve written here if you think that I’m “against” Obama.

Neither candidate for president can fulfill his respective laundry list for your nation because your nation is a debtor nation, and in order to effectively take care of its own citizens, it must default on its international obligations. That is the cold, hard and bitter truth.

The socializing of the banking system in America was taken by Republicans to attempt to save it and save their own asses, as well. State socialism is the standard (albeit not the best) solution when markets fail, and the markets have failed in America.

What I’ve said about Obama as a person and as a candidate is that
1. he should be viewed not as a “black” man but as a first generation American with very strong ties to the home country and home tribe, in particular;
2. he is very intelligent;
3. he is a smooth and accomplished liar and is as dishonest as a summer day is long; and
4. he will do what every president who has preceded him has done – attempt to concentrate more power in the presidency and erode the rights of the other branches of the government and the citizens.

However, neither McCain nor Obama are fit to lead, IMHO. But, from a strictly lesser of two evils standpoint, Obama is more fit to lead than McCain because he knows to ask others for advice when he doesn’t know what he is doing. McCain doesn’t.

As for Israel and America, the bottom line is not what we want from America, but what we Jews are willing to do to man up and enforce the original vision of the Balfour Declaration – a Jewish state that encompasses all of the Land of Israel. In such a state, Arabs have civil and economic rights, but no political rights per se. Those rights can be expressed in the many Arab states that surround us. That is the political side of matters. The spriritual side of the issue is that we Jews need to place our trust in the G-d of Israel, rather than in weapons, money or power alone. It is irrelevant what YOU believe, Baritone. What matters is what WE believe, and what WE do.

Neither candidate for president can fulfill his respective laundry list for your nation because your nation is a debtor nation, and in order to effectively take care of its own citizens, it must default on its international obligations. That is the cold, hard and bitter truth.

Let me amplify on this a bit. It is irrelevant what vision the different candidates have for America. They cannot fulfill them unless they first remove the debts from around your neck.. Frankly, I know only one way to do that at this point – going to war against the creditors, and making clear to the American people that this is exactly what is being done, and why.

Of course, if the candidates are being manipulated by money managers, oil men and bankers, either from America or otherwise, they certainly will not do what is good for America. They will do what is good for their sponsors.

Lee Richards

America should elect Obama for one very important reason: John McCain may be in the early stages of a nervous breakdown.

Like Captain Queeg in “The Caine Mutiny”, he seems to be losing touch with reality and focusing on the imaginary.

This Joe the Plumber nonsense has taken over his mind. There is no significance to this guy or national importance to his story. Never has been. It was a throwaway moment in a second-rate debate. It’s become a parody, a national joke, and McCain is absolutely–and seriously–fixated on it. In his mind, it has become all-important to keep talking about Joe, quoting Joe, even sharing the campaign stage with him.

Today, he thanked Joe the Plumber(that one specific guy)for all he had done for America!

‘Ah, yes, the stolen strawberries, that’s where I had them, with my geometric logic. And the shirt tails–I can’t stand shirt tails flapping. And has anyone seen the little steel balls I like to roll between my fingers while I talk about Joe the Plumber?’

Cindy D

And all that AFTER Joe the Illegal Plumber admits Obama is going to save him money on his taxes.

McCain understands his supporters apparently, he knows just what appeals to the brainless.

Congrats Clavos. You published my last pol article in record time, like an hour after it came off the Word. Thanks. I’ll try to watch my colons 🙂

Sorry wrong link on the last post:”It’s Time” Economist endorse/ Heloise who has been like 10 for 10 in terms of predictions this primary and election cycle—says “It’s time to predict a landslide.” Oops so much for modesty.

But reality-check for the left: Dems only win with when it is “landslide time.”

And with the poll showings, people showing up at the polls, people sleeping at the polls, poor black people too old to walk, too sick to be out of bed, babes in arms and they are coming on canes, walkers, oxygen tents to vote like their life depended on it. And it does.

To my fellow Cubans in Florida, you too know what to do…vote Obama.

Listening to the Tom Joyner Morning show made it hard to drive to work. I needed wipers for my eyes. This is sobering but not sad, sweet but not cloying, satisfying but not snarky. It is about TIME.
Heloise

Ruvy do you mean a “first gen American?” Yes, true. I actually argued that Obama should not be the nominee for that reason. Instead a person should have both grandparents born in the country and parents i.e., a ONLY a minimum THIRD gen person can hold high office. That would be offputting for people like Jhindal and Swarzennegger.

But since Obama’s got it we got to go with it. Is he black? He’s black.

Heloise, it’s after 4 in the morning here. So, so far as I’m concerned, you can call Obama “mother goose” if you want.

You can vote him in out, up, down or on top of the pool table for all I care. Just remember this after you’re done sweeping up the victory party and tossing the last bottle of rum in the trash.

Neither candidate for president can fulfill his respective laundry list for your nation because your nation is a debtor nation, and in order to effectively take care of its own citizens, it must default on its international obligations. That is the cold, hard and bitter truth.

Let me amplify on this a bit. It is irrelevant what vision the different candidates have for America. They cannot fulfill them unless they first remove the debts from around your neck.. Frankly, I know only one way to do that at this point – going to war against the creditors, and making clear to the American people that this is exactly what is being done, and why.

But one for the road a last-weekend-before-the-election zinger gratis Heloise: “George The Bush almost killed America The Beautiful.” Now that thought will TAKE your breath away. If anyone uses that give cred where it’s due.

Kudos to Lee. I used “confusion” in my subhead on the election article where I “saw” loser stamped on McCain’s head. That opened the floodgates and all the brilliant rights…except for Dave started jumping ship and leaving the sinking Atlantis following the Brothers of the band as they did thousands of years ago. (see Miles Davis’ old cover I think it’s brilliant)

But I digress: MSM has honed in on that confusion adjective. It is code for “dementia” and “old” so I was being nice when I said confusion. In fact he is NBC, nothing but confusion!

I’m not much of a drinker either, Heloise. But after my heart attack, when the doctor insisted that I drink wine, he didn’t have to insist very hard. If I wasn’t such a sober and sour guss, I would have made a great wino. Heck, in St. Paul, there were plenty of bridges to sleep under….

I don’t eat a lot of meat, but I like my sabbath chicken. I get to crave it after a while…. seeing that it’s my wallet that is the vegetarian, and not me.

McCain: “Joe, Joe where are ya?” LMAO Things just keep going from bad to worse for Joe, I mean John.

And check out Obama’s latest ad he takes the Heloise driving metaphor to the next level it’s brilliant. And his silent ad where Sarah blinks at the end, again brilliant Barack!!

This is off topic but I just mentioned Rachel Maddow’s show and wow she gets a one on one interview with Obama. Hell she replaced Buchanan with Barack, not bad Rachel…you go girl!

You know in my recollection of past lives my Jewish lives intrigued me the most. One dream made me waking up saying “pray shabbat” I even saw the spelling correctly! I had never heard that phrase before I dreamt it and then lo and behold found out it was a real Jewish thing!

If Israel were not so dangerous and my health not so fragile I would visit there.

Jon Stewart is funny as hell. If I get famous I hope he has me on his show. We could crack each other up. He said Barack is practicing to be president in his infomercial…priceless.

If Israel were not so dangerous and my health not so fragile I would visit there.

Heloise, I can’t comment on your health, except to hope that it improves, but I can tell you that wherever you live in the States is more dangerous than almost anywhere in Israel (Gaza, Jenin, Shechem, Ramallah and Hebron excepted). The biggest cause of fatalities here is auto accidents. The real hazards here are not the stupidities you see repeated endlessly on the news stations – it is the lack of elvators and the uneven sidewalks.

Well, bingo you got me on that one. I mean I went to the Punjab when it was still having bombs on the train tracks and I had to take the train while there.

But the problem is that if I fly really long distances I could lose the hearing in my other ear. I could take a slow boat…hmmm. Seriously I want to go back to Cote D’Azur, Greece and like I said Israel.

Your characterizations of Obama are ludicrous. During the 21 months since announcing his candidacy, Obama has displayed wide ranging and in-depth knowledge of virtually every issue that he would likely be confronted with as president.

Obama is thoughtful and unflappable – hardly traits that one could apply to McCain. At his best McCain is mercurial, over-wrought and inconsistent. He lives in a fantasy world – one in which Joe the Plumber is the saviour of mankind.

Obama’s former associations are not “horrific,” and have no significant relevance as regards his doctrinal positions which are not in the least repugnant. You keep hammering away at all this crap in the vain hope that it will stick. It hasn’t so far, and likely won’t over the next 5 days.

That you don’t agree with Obama’s positions hardly renders them repugnant. Yours and McCain’s constant character assassinations of Obama are what are repugnant.

I’d say Obama has accomplished rather a lot in his life. Just look at where you are, and then look at where he is. Hmmm.

Ruvy calls him a liar. Obama is no more a liar than anyone else including present company. You all make these various charges against him as if you have some special knowledge or insight that the rest of us lack. It is your attitudes that are presumptive, condescending and without substance or merit.

Obama will prove to be far more of a centrist than any of you imagine. It will be the only way in which he can govern. If he chose to camp out in left field, he would find himself isolated and cut off, not only from the right, but much of the moderate left as well. Those of you who believe that he will prove to be our first socialist president are deluded, revealing your lack of political acumen. The far left hasn’t enough numbers or clout to force much, if any, of their agenda through Congress or anywhere else.

My guess is that if McCain does manage to win, he will quickly lose interest and will become no more than a bellicose, short tempered, nasty little figurehead of a president.

Should McCain die in office, then we will be saddled with President Palin. If you think about that for more than a couple of seconds, you should become very afraid. Shivers should run up and down your spine. How long do you suppose it would be before she got “tested?”

The blind obduracy with which you support McCain/Palin will, should they somehow prevail, come back to haunt you, as it becomes clear that they haven’t a clue as to how to run a country. Your repeated mantra will be “What was I thinking.? What the hell was I thinking?”

During the 21 months since announcing his candidacy, Obama has displayed wide ranging and in-depth knowledge of virtually every issue that he would likely be confronted with as president.

So his main qualification for the presidency is his ability to run a strong campaign? Sorry, that doesn’t inspire me with confidence.

Obama is thoughtful and unflappable – hardly traits that one could apply to McCain. At his best McCain is mercurial, over-wrought and inconsistent. He lives in a fantasy world – one in which Joe the Plumber is the saviour of mankind.

Ridiculous hyperbole, once again. McCain decided to take the Joe the Plumber theme and run with it. Why shouldn’t he? It’s a connection his campaign has been trying to make to working people all along and Joe Wurzleburzlewhatever gave him an easy way to do that.

Obama’s former associations are not “horrific,”

Many, many people disagree with you on this. You can excuse the racism of Rev. Wright and the terrorism of Bill Ayers and the blatant criminality of ACORN, but many of the rest of us cannot.

and have no significant relevance as regards his doctrinal positions which are not in the least repugnant. You keep hammering away at all this crap in the vain hope that it will stick. It hasn’t so far, and likely won’t over the next 5 days.

Look. It’s the truth whether it sways you or not. All I can do is point it out and hope it influences people. Then I at least get to sit back and say “I told you so” in a couple of years – or maybe I get to be pleasantly surprised. Either way, I’ve done what I can.

That you don’t agree with Obama’s positions hardly renders them repugnant. Yours and McCain’s constant character assassinations of Obama are what are repugnant.

Obama gets away with a lot because he has the whole Soros-funded hate machine to do his dirty work for him. Sorry, I’m not willing to excuse him for benefitting from their dirty tricks.

I’d say Obama has accomplished rather a lot in his life. Just look at where you are, and then look at where he is. Hmmm.

So everyone in America who is not a leading contender for president is a failure? Give me a break.

Do I look like I’m trying to be president here? I have a good family, I earn a decent living and I keep myself well entertained. That makes me a success by any reasonable standard.

If I run for office at some point in the future it won’t be because I feel it’s my due or because it’s a good career move, it will be because I feel a duty to serve my community in a different capacity than I do now.

Morning Joe (Registered republican)–has some Halloween skeletons in his closet

And as his sidekick, the other gay guy, walks around upper west side with a McClone-Pain Tshirt, he not only has no takers but a woman asks him if he is dressed for Halloween because he’s “scary”.

New Yorkers ain’t going for it. He said when he went outside of the city he saw the McClone/Pain.

One woman said she “hates Palin.”

He got lots of “HATERS” from his neighbors. The greatest response ‘YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!”

Now MSM is backtracking and trying to defend Palin as some kind of wronged Joan of Arc. But most of the country is not buying it, nor her.

Here’s his bio. Morning Joe Wiki bio This guy went to Catholic schools like myself, born and raised Catholic too, he’s probably Irish. But he is the most conservative, white, right wing. But he is not a wingnut like some of the folks on his show.

He does ramble on. I am getting tired of the sound of his voice. However he is a little more unbiased when speaking of Obama and “recognizes” as the brothers say that Obama’s race to loose and that McCain is making some sort of late comeback.

Here’s my take…fuck all the polls now. By Sunday most people will have voted for Obama. This is what we did when we defeated Hillary…voted early…and voted everybody.

Just like Levin said of Michelle Obama, and called her talking some ugly word. You know he sounded just like Dave in talking of Michelle Obama. Like the kinda comments Dave has made about Heloise: nonsense.

Well, I am not running for office. I have no poll numbers but Pain does: 59% either hate her or think she is not ready for political primetime.

Obama’s former associations are not “horrific,” and have no significant relevance as regards his doctrinal positions which are not in the least repugnant.

Ruvy calls him a liar….. You all make these various charges against him as if you have some special knowledge or insight that the rest of us lack. It is your attitudes that are presumptive, condescending and without substance or merit.

Your blindness to reality (surprising for a man older than me, and who should, from his own profession, have a firm grasp on the issues strangling America) is tragic.

Jews on this site who have sung Obama’s praises – I’ll not name names even though it NOT lashón hará the denigration of someone’s honor in their absence – they all have the opportunity to read this comment – have closed their eyes to Obama’s close links to enemies of the Jewish people, and have chosen to ignore that reality. But, Baritone, Jews in exile commonly live in denial – which is why they so often die so easily at the hands so their enemies. So, these Jewish Obama supporters are only doing what Jews have done all along – closing their eyes to mortal dangers facing them. Hopefully they will not suffer the fate of German, Polish, Hungarian and Slovakian Jews. American Jews are insufferably arrogant and refuse to honestly recognise the real dangers surrounding them.

Speaking for myself, I would have liked to raised the banner for Ron Paul – he advocated pulling your troops out of Israel as well as pulling your interfering noses out of policy here. But Ron Paul hates the Jewish people and Israel, and believes all the Christian shit about Jews being the soruce of evil in the world. I will not be assiociated with such an individual.

I would like to support someone like Barack Obama; he is highly intelligent, well spoken, articulate, has a great knowledge of the world outside of America as well as the potential to be a great leader – unlike McCain, whose last realistic opportunity to be president disappeared years ago.

But the facts of his support of my enemies again gets in the way. There is Rashid Khalidi, for example. The anti-Israel Los Angeles Times refuses to release its tape of an Obama appearance with him just recently. And here in Israel Insider, we see why. According to those who have managed to view the tape, he accuses Israel of genocide and asserts that they have no “G-d-given right to occupy Palestine”.

So, to put it bluntly, he is a liar. He has been associating with Khalidi and various Pakistanis and Arabs for years. They have been instrumental in promoting his campaign – natural for friends to do for friends, as you’ve pointed out in the past. Obama takes an anti-Israel stance that he lies about in his campaign material, surrounds himself with anti-Israel advisors who would preside over the American decountrification of the Jewish entity here and substitute an Arab terror state that would oppress Arabs, murder Jews and be sufficiently subservient to its American masters and funders.

So why do I support this s.o.b. at all? Because McCain’s stand on Israel is not substantially different, even though he packages himself as a friend also. OUR problems here stem from the subservience to American non-support of Israel by the puppets on Government Hill in Jerusalem. I can blame your government for its unwelcome interference in our internal affairs, but the primary blame must fall not on you but upon your puppets in Jerusalem. In the effort to get rid of these puppets and replace it with a government of proud, believing Jews who will give you and the rest of the world the middle finger you all richly deserve, a clear enemy in the White House is far superior to a false friend.

The time has now arrived where your interests and ours are totally against each other, Baritone. The American government is an enemy of Israel – the most dangerous foreign enemy we face – because so many Americans think of your government as a friend.

Lisa Solod Warren

Ruvy

Let me ask you something. Seriously. If every Jew in the world were to make aliyah, what on earth would Israel do with all of us? It would be impossible.

Get real. We can’t all live in Israel. It just isn’t possible.

Cindy D

B,

The blind obduracy with which you support McCain/Palin will, should they somehow prevail, come back to haunt you, as it becomes clear that they haven’t a clue as to how to run a country. Your repeated mantra will be “What was I thinking.? What the hell was I thinking?”

If only that were true. Because, these are likely the same folks who voted for Bush twice.

They’re not wondering what went wrong with their thinking. They’re doing the same thing all over again.

I don’t understand how Republicans can have any credibility with anyone. They have subjected everyone via their last presidential choice (whom they were even more confident in) to an 8 year ride of ruination. They’re not even apologetic and they should be. They got everyone what they wanted.

When do we say, “Look, you people clearly have no idea what you’re doing. Why not sit this election out. Or at least stop trying to convince anyone you know what you’re talking about.”

“a government of proud, believing Jews who will give you and the rest of the world the middle finger you all richly deserve” – sure, a nation of 5.5 million Jews and 1.5 million Arabs will do a Japan or China and turn its back on the world. I can really see that happening. Oh, wait, no, I can’t!

bliffle

The 8 year Bush/republican reign is a clear failure.

They demanded and grabbed, sometimes illegally, every kind of power, and made a mess out of everything.

Their economic policies destroyed the biggest surplus in US history and turned it into the biggest deficit, and resulted in redistributing income from the poor and middleclass to the wealthiest, and now threatens the future financial health of the whole nation, and perhaps the world.

Their belligerent foreign policies have alienated our allies and caused our enemies to rejoice as we are bogged down in a never ending war which we had no cause to fight.

They had every opportunity to do well for the USA and they blew it. They should at least quietly sneak out of town, but no, now they want to sustain these dreadful policies and put the federal government in the hands of a bitter 72 year old and a frivolous bubble head.

There seems to be a common misconception that President Bush is running for a third term. He isn’t. Senator McCain has done as decent a job as he can of throwing President Bush under the bus, just as Senator Obama has attempted to throw the Reverend Mr. Wright, Professor Ayers and a lot of other unsavory associates under the bus. Unfortunately, we don’t know as much about the Obama – Ayers – Wright – ACORN et al connection as we know about the McCain – Bush connection, and I think we should. These things are, at least to some of us blind* folks, important because they might reveal substantially more than is presently known about Senator Obama’s intentions should he become our President.

I have no idea how history will treat the Bush presidency, and won’t know for quite a few years. Although there are copious records illuminating the subject, historians tend to be timid folks who would prefer to wait a while. It would probably have been unprofessional for an historian to attempt a definitive treatment of the Truman presidency while President Truman was in office, and while his approval ratings were about the same as President Bush’s are now.

The nexus between Senator Obama and others, particularly Professor Ayers, is worrisome, perhaps more so than might otherwise be the case, since Senator Obama has yet to tell us much about it. The characterization of Professor Ayers as “just a guy in the neighborhood” who did some bad stuff when Senator Obama was very young simply does not wash. Neither does his claim that he didn’t know much about what the Reverend Mr. Wright was preaching during his twenty year membership in, and while making substantial contributions to, the church where the Reverend Mr. Wright preached. I doubt that he was asleep.

Perhaps, in their yet to be released new book, Race Course Against White Supremacy, Professor Ayers and Ms. Dohrn will shed some light on some of these matters. By then, the election will be over and it will be too late to matter.

I think I have a reasonably good understanding of what Senator McCain would do should be become President, and a far lesser understanding of what Senator Obama would do. Although I have problems with Senator McCain becoming President, I have substantially more problems with Senator Obama becoming President. Senator Obama could possibly have resolved those problems, but he has not made a realistic attempt to do so.

Dan(Miller)

*Lurches around looking for white cane and then disappears stage right.

What do you suspect of Obama’s relationship with Ayers, Wright and the others? Since you feel Obama has not been adequately forthcoming, why not just lay out your suspicions and fears. Give us a laundry list.

It is my belief that if there were anything substantive and nefarious regarding these relationships someone would have stepped forward and spilled the beans. As far as I know, no one has done so. There are no hints of any meetings or communications between any of these people and Obama that would indicate that anything untoward occured. There are no video or audio tapes, no photos, no emails, no letters, nothing that I have seen or heard about revealing anything that would be damaging to Obama.

In the current political climate it’s difficult to believe that if anyone had such information in their possession or knew of such information, they would not hesitate to come forward to get their fifteen minutes.

That Obama has been reticent to recount any further details regarding any of those relationships may be troubling to many, but his reasons are at this point, his own. It may be owing to a sense of personal loyalty or ethics.

Should we be demanding that McCain detail his relationship with G. Gordon Liddy? How about an accounting of his relationship with his Vietnamese captors over those 5 plus years? He admits that he finally broke down before his release. What did he tell them? How deeply did they delve into his mind? Don’t we have a right to know? Mightn’t McCain be the real Manchurian Candidate?

Perhaps we should take a much closer look at McCain’s role in the Keating Five scandal. Whose ass did he kiss to wind up with a mere knuckle slap? Did he spill the beans himself behind closed doors to dodge a bullet?

Apparently, none of this matters. McCain gets a pass. He’s an American hero!

I can’t even begin to imagine how anyone could be comfortable with McCain in the WH. He is erratic. He has become a loose cannon. He is neither the man, nor is he the candidate who ran in 2000. He has sold out to the Rovians. He has flip-flopped on a number of issues since 2000. He has pulled out all the stops, and abandoned most of his ethics solely to win this election. He is not a man who I want as my president.

Obama has proven to be steadfast and unflappable. He has a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish as president. No doubt a large portion of his proposals will meet opposition or will otherwise have to be altered or at best put on the back burner for some time as the realities of the economy and other relative conditions in the country and the wider world step up and smack him in the face. The same would be true for McCain whose proposals are no less pie in the sky than are Obama’s.

It would be good, though, to see a modicum of intelligence coming out of the Oval Office for a change. George W. Bush is a dullard. McCain is much more intelligent than GWB, but lacks wisdom and grace.

I am willing to take what is perhaps a somewhat larger leap of faith in my support of Obama. I don’t believe in any god. I can only put what faith I can muster in my fellow man. Obama may disappoint, but at this juncture, I like what I see in the man. I voted for him two days ago.

When Bush 1st picked Dan Quayle we weren’t scared because George looked healthy enough to last through his term which left ole Dan to make a fool of himself without consternation. (remember how he rose all kinds of hell because a fictious TV character was going to raise her baby in a sincle parent household?)

McCain doesn’t look like he’ll last 4 years and that’s the whole point… No one with an ounce of sanity wants to see President Palin… first dude or not.

B-tone: I can’t even begin to imagine how anyone could be comfortable with McCain in the WH. He is erratic. He has become a loose cannon. He is neither the man, nor is he the candidate who ran in 2000. He has sold out to the Rovians. He has flip-flopped on a number of issues since 2000. He has pulled out all the stops, and abandoned most of his ethics solely to win this election.

I respectfully disagree. McCain is troubling, to be sure, but I have grave doubts as to how much control he actually has over his own campaign. There’s the bizarre selection of Palin as his running-mate – a person whom, I suspect, he barely even knew existed prior to the announcement. The persistent smears and attack ads just don’t jive with his public refusal to ‘go there’. He seems to be struggling to retain some degree of personal honor – such as with his stiff-backed rebuttal of the supporter who claimed that Obama was an Arab.

Every chance he’s had to really put the boot into the Obama campaign personally, he hasn’t taken. Palin has publicly dissented with him more than once on the campaign trail. It’s as if his heart isn’t really in this: except for the third debate, when he showed some fire, he’s been consistently lacklustre.

I think John McCain is an honorable man and I like him a great deal. I just think he’s out of his political depth here.

The big question is this: if he has this little control over his campaign, how much control will he have over his administration if he gets elected?

The times I have seen McCain perform over the past several weeks, I have found him to be smug and condescending both at his stump speeches and during all 3 of the debates. The entire tenor of his campaign has been spiteful and aggressive in its efforts toward character assassination.

Whichever way you look at it, though, whether McCain is holding the reigns or has been usurped by others in the campaign, it hardly bodes well for a McCain presidency.

B

Cindy D

Dan,

First, McCain IS essentially George Bush. He only threw him under a bus as a defensive move.

The fact is that I’m different. But, the fact is that I have agreed with President Bush far more than I’ve disagreed. And on the transcendent issues, the most important issues of our day, I have been totally in agreement and support of President Bush. So, I strongly disagree with any assertion that I’ve been more at odds with the President of the United States more than I’ve been in agreement with him.

[March 5, 2008] Well, I am very honored and humbled to have the opportunity to receive the endorsement of the President of the United States….I intend to have as much campaigning events and as much as in sort of keeping with the President’s heavy schedule.

Second, how can you possibly know what John McCain will do if he is elected? I mean other than putting Bush’s failed policies into overdrive. Tax cuts for the wealthy didn’t work…okay how about even bigger tax cuts.

McCain was consistently against Bush’s tax cuts, this one minute video montage shows 7 instances from 2000-2004 where McCain was saying approximately the same thing Obama is saying about who should and who should not get tax cuts.

So now, when he’s trying to distance himself from Bush, his tax policy sounds exactly like Bush’s? How did that happen? It’s the Republican party line. Above everything else the wealthy (who are represented by the Republican party) want everyone to believe that whatever happens cutting their taxes and giving them handouts (loopholes and incentives) is some kind of panacea for whatever ails us.

Third, I am sure you do have doubts about Obama. But, I wonder why your your apparent quest for knowledge has exclusively led you to the door of the rabble-rousers instead of focusing any attention on what more thoughtful conservatives have to say.

Forth, I don’t think we can trust the doubts of Republicans and/or right-wingers any more than we can trust that which they have no doubt about. These doubts sound like the same sort of doubts they had when they were trying to get Bush elected twice. In other words, the right-wing has demonstrated its inability to discern what should even warrant doubt and what should scream out “danger Will Robinson”.

Lisa Solod Warren

#67 OH, Mark. That is so effing funny….. Thanks for pointing it out.

Condor

“hoard salt and pepper” – troll

Troll, come on…. salt and pepper. Remember the 2000 and all the Y2K hype (BS). Listen, hoarding takes up a lot of room, wastes space and you have to eat all that crap even when the shelf life expires.

If you’re hoarding, think…. Dried peas taste like crap. Hoard bourbon, coffee and smokes. Why? Bartering. Those commodities take up little room, and going to be in short supply and appeal to the vice and victimhood that will occupy the minds of all the dopes who are stuck eating powdered eggs, powdered milk and dried peas. Want some fresh meat, trade bourbon for a cow…

Oh and don’t forget the bullets because some have-not is going to want your stash but was probably unwilling to put forth the effort to secure one for him/her self.

troll

Condor…I’m more worried about the haves who want more

as for hoarding bourbon: give a man a bottle and you’ve made a friend for an evening…teach him how to build a still and he can stay drunk indefinitely

Clavos

There are no hints of any meetings or communications between any of these people and Obama that would indicate that anything untoward occured. There are no video or audio tapes, no photos, no emails, no letters, nothing that I have seen or heard about revealing anything that would be damaging to Obama.

In the current political climate it’s difficult to believe that if anyone had such information in their possession or knew of such information, they would not hesitate to come forward to get their fifteen minutes.

3 words:

Los. Angeles. Times.

Baronius

It’ll be interesting to see the articles on BC in January, with each side reviewing the Bush presidency. Bliffle and Cindy see it as a complete failure. I see several years of broad economic prosperity, lower unemployment rates (even during a recession) than European countries can manage during a boom, the liberation of two oppressed countries, a broader campaign against terrorists, two great Supreme Court nominees, lower tax rates, and the first steps toward education and legal reform. I also see continued increases in governmental spending (including an expansion of Medicare), disasterous policies from the Fed and Treasury, one lousy Supreme Court nominee withdrawn, and very little effort in building up his party. A solid B.

Neither Bush nor McCain have conservative instincts. Bush has respect for conservatives, and that has helped steer him in the right direction. McCain doesn’t. Whoever wins this election, I’m going to miss Bush.

Clavos

Here’s an interesting example of how deeply the prejudice runs in liberal circles, when even a reasonable, moderate man, in an attempted apologia for the man, makes a statement like this:

“He seems to be struggling to retain some degree of personal honor – such as with his stiff-backed rebuttal of the supporter who claimed that Obama was an Arab. (emphasis added)

Not “gracious,” not “non-partisan.” “Stiff-backed.”

Cindy D

I find John McCain extremely confusing. He is a maverick who stood against his party, next he is defending Bush, next he is nothing like Bush, next he sounds exactly like the party line AND Bush (yet claims he is a maverick and ISN’T Bush.)

I don’t understand how anyone can claim they know what he would do as president besides his Bush II “and then some” tax policy.

I’ve resolved to vote AGAINST any candidate that goes relentlessly negative.

Baronius

Cindy, I find Barack Obama extremely confusing. He says that he is a uniter, above the partisan fray, but he never stands against his party, and represents something new, but is indistinguishable from his running mate who is the embodiment of his party’s establishment…

Re Comment #63: At this stage in the game, I don’t think that there is a need to detail the various speculations about Senator Obama’s associations with Professor Ayers, Ms. Dohrn, the Reverend Mr. Wright, ACORN, et al. The speculation is out there, and if you don’t know about it I would suggest that you look it up. We do know that Senator Obama has had some associations with them, but we don’t know the extent of those associations and thus far his response has been, to me at least, patently inadequate and uninformative. Professor Ayers, Ms. Dohrn and the Reverend Wright, and others who seem to have had long term associations with Senator Obama, have been conspicuously silent as well.

Senator Obama does not owe me an explanation; I have already voted, and it was not for him. Had he dealt with these matters differently, I might have voted differently; or I might not have. A lot would have depended on the nature and fullness of his response. I do think that he owes those who are still trying to decide for whom to vote a far more enlightening response than has thus far been provided.

You argue,

In the current political climate it’s difficult to believe that if anyone had such information in their possession or knew of such information, they would not hesitate to come forward to get their fifteen minutes.

Do you really think so? I am far less sanguine. Few people want “their fifteen minutes,” particularly since their personal lives are likely to be investigated and demonized in the media for far longer than fifteen minutes. Look at the personal attacks on Governor Palin and her family as soon as she became the Republican Party Vice Presidential nominee. It was suggested that she was not the mother of her Downs Syndrome child, and that her husband had had an incestuous relationship with her daughter, among other things. “Joe the Plumber” has been investigated, perhaps improperly, and attempting to make him a laughingstock has become a preoccupation of some. If I had concrete information about Senator Obama’s associations, and I don’t, I don’t know that I would have the guts to subject myself, and my family, to this sort of thing.

You contend,

That Obama has been reticent to recount any further details regarding any of those relationships may be troubling to many, but his reasons are at this point, his own. It may be owing to a sense of personal loyalty or ethics.

I agree that he has been reticent, but otherwise disagree. Senator Obama has thrust himself onto the public stage, and may become our next President. Those who are being asked to vote for him are entitled to know the reasons for his reticence. Ditto the bases of his “sense of personal loyalty or ethics.” In particular, they deserve to know whether and if so how his sense of loyalty and ethics toward Professor Ayers, Ms. Dohrn, the Revered Mr. Wright, et al are likely to impact on his presidency. Until he makes at least a modest effort to explain these things, I shall continue to question whether his loyalty and ethics are misdirected.

Senator McCain’s relationship to the Keating Five has been quite will ventilated. I would only ask that Senator Obama’s associations referenced above be equally well ventilated, and soon. As to whether Senator MaCain might be a “Manchurian Candidate,” I suppose it is possible. It seems rather unlikely and as far as I am aware, there is nothing in his post-Vietnam history to suggest that he is. Whatever his flaws may be, and there some, I don’t think that is one of them. Nor do I know of anything that he or anyone else could say which would rebut the suggestion that he is.

You state that Senator Obama “has a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish as president.” I wish that I had a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish. With the Ayers, Dohrn, Wright, et al stuff rattling around with no adequate response, I don’t have such a vision of what he wants to accomplish. Nor, I suspect, do many undecided voters.

In your Comment # 69, you argue that The entire tenor of his [Senator McCain’s] campaign has been spiteful and aggressive in its efforts toward character assassination. I don’t think so. Suggesting that Senator Obama is a socialist, whatever that means, or that he has unexplained and apparently unfortunate association with people who find the United States disgusting, does not strike me as character assassination. These seem to me to be things to which Senator Obama should respond. Promptly and before it is too late.

Dan(Miller)

Lisa Solod Warren

You know what, Dan? I find McCain’s association with Bush, Keating, Gramm and their ilk, not to mention his extremely ill-advised choice of Pain as veep, so troubling, that even if I agreed with him on every one of his policies (some of which I don’t even know what they are, since he speaks more in attacks than on issues) I would NOT vote for him. McCain’s associations and choices are so very troubling that I could never ever vote for him. I also find his connection with the Christian right, nay, his pandering to them, so completely distasteful, that I could never vote for him on that connection alone.

Cindy D

Baronius,

What does it matter that you painted the walls before you burned down the house?

Actually, I don’t credit him with even painting the walls. But, I don’t limit the complete failure to Bush’s presidency. I also see it as the complete failure of the Republican party and their mentality. Beyond that, I see it also as the complete failure of capitalism and this is at least the 2nd time we have seen that on such a wide scale.

This entire affair is a straman argument. It is no more than a manner in which to steer the attention away from real issues. McCain’s campaign HAS focussed almost entirely upon character assassination. They have gone out of their way to suggest that Obama is in league with terrorists, that he is unpatriotic, that he is a muslim and that he isn’t even an American.

You believe that McCain is an honorable man. I think he’s an asshole. As Lisa notes, McCain’s campaigns spend much more time with negative attacks than on anything to do with his proposals.

Obviously, you haven’t spent any significant time studying Obama’s proposals. Even in his stump speeches, he lays things out reasonably well. McCain doesn’t even try.

Obama’s interview with Rachel Maddow last evening was VERY revealing with respect to his vision. To her credit, Maddow asked a number of questions that precluded the possibility of boiler plate answers, and Obama obliged by making painstaking and in-depth answers.

The issue of Obama’s associations have been about the only hook McCain and Palin have utilized, and apparently to little effect. It is my view that most people don’t care. Should Obama win, that view will be borne out.

Oh, and Joe the Plumber. What a crock. Give me a break. He jumped on is fifteen minutes with both feet. He’s loving it. Never mind that he is essentially a fraud.

Apparently, you have never watched shows like Jerry Springer, Judge Judy or even Dr. Phil. Large numbers of people fall all over themselves regardless of the consequences – regardless of the embarrassment, sometimes even the possibility of landing in jail – for the opportunity to get themselves on the tube and/or get their names in the news. You are just wrong about this. I guarantee that if anything was out there, we’d know about it by now.

BTW, if it should happen that President McCain winds up choking, say on his own bile, I hope you all enjoy life under President Barbie.

B

Clavos

My point, exactly, B-tone. you WON’T find what they are refusing to release to the public: a video in their possession of a meeting between, among others, Obama and Khalid Rashidi, in which Obama lavished praise on Rashidi, and his (Obama’s) attendance at which casts doubts on his announced pro-Israel stance.

Whaddya wanna bet the Times will decide on Nov 5 that they can release it after all?

you know, they probably aren’t releasing it because the rumor of its existence is better than what’s truly on the tape.

in this day and age, the times certainly isn’t the only organization with that tape. many, many people have it, and for some reason aren’t releasing it.

it doesn’t matter that the times isn’t releasing it. its existence is known. (although unconfirmed by us actually seeing it…) which is worse? not knowing what’s on that tape, or probably what is just some mild politicking? from what i can gather, obama sees both sides of the palestinian/israeli conflict… and while he supports the israeli state, he also understands the palestinian cause.

the point is that the rumors of the tape do much more damage than the actual tape would.

zingzing

anyway, what’s the point in picking a side in that fight? they’re (israel and palestine) both right in their own way, and they’re both deadly wrong in a lot of other ways. stupidity rages on both sides. both have a right to the land. but they just don’t want to live together. it’s fucking dumb.

Has it escaped your notice that McCain headed up the International Republican Institute that gave nearly half a million dollars to a group sponsored by Rashidi? Is it not relevant that McCain gave a keynote address to an ACORN convention in 2006?

Oh, no, that’s right. I keep forgetting. McCain’s a hero. He can do this stuff. Obama’s an arab and a muslim and a terrorist. He can’t have these kind of associations.

Do you suppose the video will show Obama and Rashidi doing each other under the table? Just wondering.

B

Clavos

Has it escaped your notice that McCain headed up the International Republican Institute that gave nearly half a million dollars to a group sponsored by Rashidi? Is it not relevant that McCain gave a keynote address to an ACORN convention in 2006?

Excellent point, B-tone. Two things about McCain which put into question his politics, I agree.

I’m especially disturbed that he would support ACORN, given their questionable reputation.

I can’t help but notice that if McCain wishes to spring the dreaded October Surprise, he’s only got another seven hours (PDT) in which to do so.

(Well, to be fair, let’s say nine if the Surprise is in Hawaii. I’m sure there are hordes of lawyers beating frantically with their subpoenas on the doors of the Office of Public Records in Honolulu as we speak.)

REMF/MCH

Nice work as usual, Dawn.
I agree whole-heartedly and have already cast my vote for Barack.

Now if we could just convince EO to switch to the good side …. (grin)

bliffle

Clavos,

Did you publish a denunciation of McCain that was as livid as your denunciation of Obama, after thei:

#93 — Clavos

Has it escaped your notice that McCain headed up the International Republican Institute that gave nearly half a million dollars to a group sponsored by Rashidi? Is it not relevant that McCain gave a keynote address to an ACORN convention in 2006?

Excellent point, B-tone. Two things about McCain which put into question his politics, I agree.

I’m especially disturbed that he would support ACORN, given their questionable reputation.

Lisa Solod Warren

Yes, Clav…. been wondering about this myself, since the day before yesterday when I first heard about the Rashidi-McCain link and yesterday when it all over the news…. and the HUGE amount of money and support McCain gave to him…..

and how Rashidi is actually a very moderate Palestinian.

Oh, and the ACORN association. Too bad you and Dave didn’t do your research before you did SO much yelling and screaming for SO long about Obama and HIS associations.

Oh, and Dan…. any chance YOU regreat YOUR vote.
Probably note. TOO DUG IN all of you.

Sigh….. See what hate and vitriol and stupid ass association bullcrap does? Just blurs what is really meaningful.

Clavos

How’s this, bliffle?

McCain is unAmerican and a traitor for contributing half a million dollars to a muslim terrorist by the name of rashidi.

McCain should also be censured for supporting the subversive ACORN organization.

In the most recent issue of the New Yorker Hendrik Hertzberg notes that during the 2000 campaign a McCain appearance on MSNBC’s “Hardball,” a young woman asked McCain “why her father, a doctor, should be “penalized” by being “in a huge tax bracket.” McCain replied that “wealthy people can afford more” and that “the very wealthy, because they can afford tax lawyers and all kinds of loopholes, really don’t pay nearly as much as you think they do.”

The exchange continued:

YOUNG WOMAN: Are we getting closer and closer to, like, socialism and stuff?…

MCCAIN: Here’s what I really believe: That when you reach a certain level of comfort, there’s nothing wrong with paying somewhat more.”

And Palin? Hertzberg goes on: “A few weeks before she was nominated for Vice-President, she told a visiting journalist–Philip Gourevitch, of this magazine–that “we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs.” (Bold emphases my own.)

Cindy, most of our leaders support some degree of socialism on some issues. The question is where you draw the line and how much you’re willing to put up with. Have I ever said that I agree with John McCain 100%? Have I ever said that I agree with Sarah Palin 100%? Have I ever said that I don’t think collectivism is a reasonable way to deal with some situations?

And Cindy, I’m not ignoring you specifically, there are just a lot of things to respond to and responding to questions whose answers ought to be obvious or perhaps should never have been asked seems uniquely pointless.

It is the nature of government to want to control things. All of our presidential and vice presidential nominees are creatures of government and believe to some extent that government control is a good thing. The question for the voter in an election like this is which of them is likely to do the least harm.

As for Palin’s comments on the oil industry, I do think that’s largely a red herring. That industry as set up as a collectively shared resource of the people of Alaska and all she’s doing is following through on the structure which prior governments established. That does not make her personally responsible for that structure, and in fact it’s not a bad struture. It’s a reasonable compromise between outright government ownership and full privatiztion of the resources.

As I’ve written before, I believe that collectivism, as a business model, has a great deal of unrealized potential. When people voluntarily enter into collectives where the constituents own an enterprise or a resource or a business, I think it’s a potentially excellent way to do business. I belong to three collectives myself and I’m thinking of running for the board of one of them.

Voluntary socialism is a great thing. Socialism imposed involuntarily by government on even a minority of the people when they do not want it, is a great evil.

Dave

Cindy D

“A Funny Thing Happened On the Way to the Smearfest” (as someone said)

McCain sat on the advisory board to the U.S. Council for World Freedom:

…Now John McCain may have an Iran-Contra connection. In the 1980s, McCain served on the advisory board to the U.S. chapter of an international group linked to ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America.

The U.S. Council for World Freedom aided rebels trying to overthrow the leftist government of Nicaragua. That landed the group in the middle of the Iran-Contra affair and in legal trouble with the Internal Revenue Service, which revoked the charitable organization’s tax exemption.

The council created by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Singlaub was the U.S. chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America….

(snip)

“McCain was a new guy on the block learning the ropes,” Singlaub said.

Okay, no excuses now! Young Senator McCain began his career amid right-wing extremists. Wait, what no you say? I don’t know…it looks awfully ugly.

You obviously don’t understand. Right wing activities are okay as they are the “true” Americans.

It’s those left wing Pinko, Ruskie types that should be hammered. You know, there ought to be a committee, a congressional committee – probably in the House. Call it, say the Unamerican Committee, or no, Actively Unamerican Committee, or no wait, I’ve got it, the Unamerican Activity Committee in the House, or better yet, YES! The House Unamerican Activities Committee!!! (By jove, I think he’s got it!) And I know just the guy to head it up. No wait. He’s dead. (Say it ain’t so Joe.) Oh well. I’m sure we can come up with a true god fearing right wing Congressman to take up the gauntlet.

That ought to shake up those commie bastards.

B

Cindy D

Thanks for your reply Dave. That position sounds much better and more reasonable than seeing you flinging around epithets like “Marxist”. As far as who wants what, we’ll see that result on election day.

I personally see the whole “socialist” smear as ending in a good thing. I think a whole bunch of people on the left of capitalism, if for no other reason than to counter the charges against their Democrat, are learning some things about what socialism can really mean. I think they will be finding, for the first time, that they have been hoodwinked into fearing a word they didn’t really understand.

Cindy D

B,

I think Lisa said it best when she said, “Sigh….. See what hate and vitriol and stupid ass association bullcrap does? Just blurs what is really meaningful.”

Cindy D

B,

“The House Unamerican Activities Committee!!!”

haha! I like it. But, don’t we already have one of those? I think it’s called the Republican National Committee.

Cindy, it would be great for people to be educated, but as it stands right now, it’s perfectly effective to just throw out the word ‘socialist’ as clearly undesirable to identify the kind of statist command and control system which Obama and especially the radicals in Congress advocate.

I’m actually much more concerned about people like Charles Rangel, Nancy Pelosi and John Conyers from the Progressive Caucus, who are at heart much more radical than people realize and who will feel like they have a license to indulge that radicalism if Obama gets elected. I seriously question whether Obama has the experience, the will or the intent to block his own party when it goes too far left and too far in favor of a super-powerful state.

I agree. I would add that words like conservative, liberal, socialist, capitalist and the like are hardly more than labels. In my first BC article, I tried to deal with the current usage of the word “liberal,” which has become as much an unfortunate label as the other words listed above. We label someone or some thing as “liberal” or “conservative” or “socialist” or “capitalist” and then that’s it; no further discussion required. We forget that the words, even in their current bastardized usage, actually denote a spectrum, a line, and not a single point. There are other words which have clearly defined meanings: one is either pregnant, or one is not; unfortunately, the words listed above tend to be used as though they had the same inflexible meaning.

The United States has had a “progressive” income tax system for many years; I can’t remember when that wasn’t the case. The question now is not whether we want a progressive income tax. That seems to have been decided long ago, and reversion to something else seems highly unlikely. The question is how progressive we want it to be. Senators McCain and Obama appear to have different views on this.

Similarly, the U.S. is, to a substantial extent, “socialist.” That, too, has been going on for many years and seems unlikely to cease to be the case. The question now before us is to what extent, if at all, we want to move further into or away from “socialism.” Again, the question is not whether the U.S. is going to be on the spectrum, but where on the spectrum it is going to be. I get the sense that Senators Obama and McCain have different views on this as well.

The use of amorphous words as though they stood for a concept with a clear and well defined meaning is hardly unique to the present Presidential campaign. Still, I wish that those capable of rational thought would pause and reflect for a few moments before yielding to a process which diminishes us all.

At last, we agree. Those “labels” are thrown out by all with abandon. Whether one is a liberal or a conservative, a capitalist or a socialist is rather a misnomer. The great majority of people can be said to be all of the above as you suggest. It depends largely on what particular issues are under consideration. While I must admit to guilt in this regard, I don’t like it when someone refers to someone else as a “typical liberal” or “typical conservative.” It’s innacurate and unfair.

I’m glad as well that we agree on something. However, you say, I don’t like it when someone refers to someone else as a “typical liberal” or “typical conservative.” It’s innacurate and unfair. Yes, it is. The adjective makes it even less substantive, unless “typical” is a construed as a polite expression for “fucking.” So construed, the phrase possibly has some meaning. Inaccurate and unfair, probably, but at least somewhat meaningful.

But it makes broad assumptions with only the barest of information. In that context the word “typical” is most certainly used as a pejorative. If the noun is vague, its qualifier in this case does little to shed light on its meaning.

Let me ask you something. Seriously. If every Jew in the world were to make aliyah, what on earth would Israel do with all of us? It would be impossible. Get real. We can’t all live in Israel. It just isn’t possible.

Thr boundaries of the Palestine Mandate in 1920 consisted of all of the territory that now comprises the State of Israel, the Golan Heights, and the Kingdom of Jordan. The British were mere trustees of the sole sovereigns of that Mandate, the Jewish People. They didn’t act that way.

In 1922, the British illegally ceded the Bashan (Golan Heights) to the French in their Mandate of Syria-Lebanon. In 1922, they illegally separated the territory east of the Jordan, handing it over to an Arab administrator, Abdallah, and closed to the territory to Jewish settlement.

All this territory is by rights ours – even yours, assuming that you are indeed a Jew. The State of Israel acts in the interests of the Jewish People.

It has acted badly.

Nevertheless, to answer you directly, we do not need the Israeli government to provide for us if you all arrive with all of your money. Fourteen million Jews would be enough to be a majority in both Israel and a re-annexed Jordan, and the territory of the Land of Israel will have almost been made whole.

Without annexing Jordan, the “demographic bomb” that fools in the People’s Republic of Tel Aviv worry about will disappear. Annexing outright the heartland of our country, Judea and Samaria, as well as Gaza, would be no big deal. Replacing the child-hostile culture of the west with the child-friendly culture of observant Jews will result in a population explosion. That may be hard for you to stomach in your fancy house in Virginia, but as you pointed out, not all the Jews need come home – you could stay out and not be missed.

Lisa Solod Warren

Ruvy, I am indeed a Jew. No need to get nasty. WHY does everyone need to get nasty? And I have neither lots of money NOR a fancy house. Why assume that all Americans or all American Jews are rich?
I just don’t think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should)live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons…

I just don’t think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should)live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons…

Why don’t you try elaborating on these reasons, madame, and try in the process not to sound like some ghetto Jew trying to wheedle something out of the goyim. Try elaborating on the reasons that Jews should effectively reject G-d’s law and stay out of their G-d given homeland without sounding like an atheist, or a non-believer, or someone who may be pissed off by Jew-hatred, but who lacks the spine to actually do anything about it.

In the end it comes down to simple concepts, Lisa.

kiddúsh hashém, acting in such a way as to recognize the holiness of G-d or Hillúl hashém, acting in such a way as to curse G-d.

I’m no saint in what I’ve done in life, and I have a great deal to be ashamed of. But I came home, and brought my sons with me, so that I could do what I felt was my duty to my father, and grandfather, may they rest in peace, and plant a firm root in our ancient home that so many of us have died for. I have one tiny deed that I can bring to the Supreme Judge and say I DID SOMETHING RIGHTEOUS.

Were those pogroms in Odessa and all over Russia 100 years ago for nothing? Were the murders of six million Jews for nothing? Haven’t you figured out the basic lesson of history that Jews need to learn? Have you not yet learnt that serving goyisher princes brings only death (like the German, British, French, Russian and Austrian Jews who fought each other in WWI)? Do you not even understand the concept that Jews need to fight and kill to keep their one land in a world devoted to death and murder if they are to have any peace at all? Or perhaps you would rather die than face all that?

Go ahead, dear. Explain yourself. Merely to say that there are many reasons for anything says nothing at all.

zingzing

my god ruvy–she wants to lead her own life and not the one YOU think is prescribed for you. your belief has lead you to your current status as someone who believes that fighting and killing is a good thing. it’s not. in fact, it’s hilarious that you bring up your righteousness just a few sentences before.

just because you believe something is right for you doesn’t make it right for everyone.

Let Lisa speak her own mind. She’s a big girl and can think for herself. I asked her to detail her reasons for her statement. I await her answer. It does not suffice to say “there are many reasons” as an argument. Little girls stamping their feet on the ground say things like that – or they assert “because!”

That is fine for little girls stamping their feet. People who huff and puff on the Huffington Post, holding themselves out as “journalists” can do better than “there are many reasons, there just are” (a typical Lisa-ism).

I await her explanations of her point of view – not yours.

zingzing

yeah well, i wasn’t really saying as much about her point of view as about yours, which i find to be spectacularly wrong.

that said, i’ve got a question for you: if the palestinians were to lay down their arms and say “let’s live peaceably together in our mutual holy land,” would your beliefs allow it? or are they not, under any circumstances, welcome?

zing,that said, i’ve got a question for you: if the palestinians were to lay down their arms and say “let’s live peaceably together in our mutual holy land,” would your beliefs allow it? or are they not, under any circumstances, welcome?

I’m not extending the hand of peace to the Arabs, dude. They want war, and so far as I’m concerned they can have what they want so damned bad.

But I wouldn’t put my son or the sons of my neighbors or friends at risk to shut up YOUR damned government and its whining about what they think we are allowed to do or not do.

The Geneva Convention ceased to apply to any of this country on 5 June, 1968. So, we can do what we please in crushing what is in essence an Arab rebellion against OUR sovereign authority in the Land of Israel, rights that came into existence IN INTERNATIONAL LAW when the Mandate for Palestine was adopted. We were then the sole sovereigns over this land and we are now. So, put very simply, any schmuck that wants to challenge that sovereignty is entitled – to some hot lead in his throat.

We have not seen Arabs offering the hand of peace to us, – BUT WHEN THEY DO, I’LL CONSIDER IT. Till then, they can eat lead. NIce, chatting with you zing.

But I’m still waiting for Lisa to “man up” and give her reasons for Jews not to come home to Israel. I don’t think she really will.

moon

Ruvy,

Some people just go through life as Professional Kvetches (sp?). And I am not referring to you.

You probably remember this better than I do, Marthe. When TV first burst forth in America, Sid Caesar was the king of late night. On his “Show of Shows” he used to do interviews with “the world’s leading expert” of this dumb thing or the other.

He was imitating the Jews at the Kiddush table on Sabbath after morning prayers, who would hold forth on topics they knew nothing about – “the world’s leading experts”. Comedy is usually a cruel reflection of reality – with an element of dissonance to jar the cognition – and make us laugh. The Jewish world is full of “world’s leading experts” who think they know it all and shove doctorates and bad manners in your face in an attempt to show how smart they are.

If I want to know about the Qur’an for example, the last person I would ask would be one of the many Jewish “world’s leading experts”. I ask a Moslem. It’s his holy book, right? And I happen to know a Sufi scholar who is an expert on the Qur’an, the hadith, and the sunna. When I have serious questions, he’s the guy I go to.

One of the things you pick up real quick is the immense diversity of opinion in the Moslem world. The Jewish “experts” who think they know it all, don’t want to know. Therefore they don’t. All they do is kvetch and krekhtz(krekhtzing is the noise sick people make – the sighing, the “oys” the “gevalts” etc.) and whine, while acting as if the whole world is a huge Kiddush table where everyone is dying for their expertise….

moon

I remember Sid Caesar very well–although I didn’t always get to stay up and watch either him or Steve Allen.

I liked the Jewish guys who played assimilated roles: Phil Silvers was my hero as he found freedom within The System. I thought of him during the 11 days I infiltrated the US Army….

Chamish is an Israeli who fled because the Secret Police (Shaba”k) wanted to kill him. He figured (for good or ill) that he would be safer in the United States.

I know Barry. He puts up the real goods on this. He knows what he is talking about on all this, and the reason I’m putting this up is that officially Yigal Amir killed YitzHak Rabin, and he was killed on 4 November, and all the schools have all sorts of bullshit on it.

It’s a lie. Israel is run by a criminal mafia and the State President is not above watching a man get beat up. He is not above murder either.

zingzing

well, ruvy, i’m glad to hear that you would consider a peace proposal by palestine.

although i’m sad to hear you won’t be the one proposing peace. one of the two of you has to do it sometime. whoever that is will be the bigger man. or whatever.

moon

Most countries are run by a criminal mafia, because the citizens of most countries do not give a flying fuck.

Cindy D

“I’m delighted to support John McCain and I’m pleased that he’s chosen a running mate with executive talent, toughness and common sense … Sarah Palin.”
– Dick Cheney

“I’d like to congratulate Senator McCain on this endorsement because he really earned it.”
– Barack Obama

Lisa Solod Warren

Ruvy

I find you more than a litte insulting, but then I always have, as much as I have tried to treat you more generously than I find you treat anyone on this list.

My original comment was meant to convey the impossibility of Israel coping with a sudden influx of 3 1/2 million Americans and say, 600,000 French. I do not think it possible. You think it is? Fine.

I find your attitude that of a Torah-thumping Fundamentalist, akin to that of a Bible-belt Fundalmentalist who says that if one does not accept Jesus into his heart one is not a Real Christian.

Your “Jewishness” is your own but it is not the only way. Remember that. Or don’t. I do not care.

You know nothing about me or my life and I will not defend all my reasons for not immediately considering a move to Israel. Suffice it to say that for the next few years I have two very old and very ill parents whose care is in my hands, who cannot be moved and who I will not abandon.

This list, as I understand it, is to talk about the issues brought up in the opinion pieces, and not to have to defend one’s religious or life views, which is why personal attacks are not or should not be allowed.

I think it interesting that you don’t think there is a diversity in the Jewish world, but at the same time you allow no diversity of thinking in your own small Jewish world. As far as I can tell it is either your way or the highway.

There’s nothing to be done about Ruvy, Lisa. He’s like one of those people that give up smoking and are then forever bothering people who haven’t. He is so sure that his strand of faithist views are correct that he can’t resist chundering on about it all the time and trying to patronise other people’s views. It would be endearing if it wasn’t all so tragically misguided.

If he was British, you’d likely find him every weekend on a soapbox at Speaker’s Corner in London’s Hyde Park, along with all the other extremists who think they know how to order the world.

I’m not actually sure that either Ruvy is a bit schizo or two people are posting under his name, given that sometimes he posts in a reasonable tone and other times he goes all fundamentalist on us.

It is a profoundly sad affair to see such determined faithism getting in the way of a real humanist spirituality, to the detriment of all of us.

Lisa Solod Warren

Well put, Christopher. Thanks….
Yes, I have been to London many times and while those speakers on the corner are fun to watch for a couple of minutes, the nice thing about them is that you can walk away at will!

Bloggers on the internet have always reminded me of the crazies at speakers corner. Of course, whenever I went by there when I lived in London I felt a terrible compulsion to step up on an old crate and join in.

Dave

Franco

#131 — Christopher Rose

Christopher Rose sez……..

A soapbox at Speaker’s Corner in London’s Hyde Park, who think they know how to order the world.

Then Christopher Rose gets up on his own soapbox and belittles the truth of others by proclaiming his own truth as superior with his following assertion.

It is a profoundly sad affair to see such determined faithism getting in the way of a real humanist spirituality, to the detriment of all of us.

Since our comments editor has decalred this is officlal soapbox day through his own words and actions her on BC, I step up on my soapbox and assert the following to points.

(1) Free Speech and (2) Separation of Church and State should always be protected, as they are now, so both of you can have your say and or walk away. Anything more then that would an attempt to curtail the free speach of the other.

Lisa Solod Warren

Franco, I think even you can tell the difference between free speech and harrassment.

Surely Lisa you must have learned by now that unless your a neocon or ultra conservative, you’re not welcome here.

Those of us at center or left of center aren’t intelligent enough to voice an opinion here, so we’re either torn to shreds by the mighty three, or just completely ignored as being not worth bothering with.

… I know; I know, Don’t call you Shirley…

Lisa Solod Warren

What about Cindy and Barbara and Dawn and Baritone and Contrarian and Zedd and zing and you? and Winston and….
Shirley (don’t forget Shirely!)

Lisa, as I’m sure you’ve realized, when you’ve once incurred Moon’s wrath there’s very little you can do. Retaliation just breeds more retaliation. Extended olive branches will be seized, chewed up and recycled as toothpicks. Even agreeing with her cuts no ice.

There’s really only one effective tactic* in your situation, and I believe you may have an inkling of what it is.

* Actually, there are two, but I won’t say anything about the second one here as I have patent pending on it and it is still in the field testing phase.

Oh Moonie, you poor [Personal attack deleted]. It’s okay for you to flood this website with your condescending [expletive deleted] and you high and mighty [Personal attack deleted]. But if anyone uses the same [expletive deleted] on you, you cry Personal attack! You just keep whining until your [Personal attack deleted] comes sobbing up and comforts you.

You know nothing about me or my life and I will not defend all my reasons for not immediately considering a move to Israel. Suffice it to say that for the next few years I have two very old and very ill parents whose care is in my hands, who cannot be moved and who I will not abandon.

I would never insult you by demanding that you cough up your personal reasons for not leaving your home to come here.

I never asked you that. I hope your parents suffer little or not at all and are comforted by the presence of a loving daughter.

I asked you something very different:

I just don’t think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should)live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons….

Why don’t you try elaborating on these reasons, madame[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]. Try elaborating on the reasons that Jews should effectively reject G-d’s law and stay out of their G-d given homeland [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

Go ahead, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]. Explain yourself. Merely to say that there are many reasons for anything says nothing at all.

That is not a personal question directed to the details of your life, Lisa, which are, as you say, your own business, and unless you ask specifically for advice on them, not any of our affair to comment on at all.

I do not remember going to Rhetoric R Us and buying new rhetoric over the last two years, whether it be inclusive or otherwise. My abysmal typing has improved minimally.

But, I will note that I worry far more about issues of Divine Judgment than I used to, and am far more aware of my own many many shortcomings. I also worry about issues of Redemption (personal, national and universal) and have far less patience than I used to with Jews who appear dismissive of their own hard bought heritage. Such Jews abound on this list.

Finally, I will note this. In Jerusalem, I was a mere spectator from a distance of the abuse an anti-Torah government perpetrated upon believers. Here, in Ma’alé Levoná, I am far more of a witness to that abuse, and am far more insistent on the overthrow of a treasonous régime of American and European puppets ruling and ruining our lives from Jerusalem.

Sorry what I relate here sounds like harassment, but you decided to cast this stone; I’m merely slinging it back at you.

To pull in extra income I used to teach Hebrew at a “reform temple” in Saint Paul. One day, I mentioned that I was a manager at Burger King.

You should have heard those kids.

“Why didn’t you bring us a cheeseburger?!!”, they shouted at me. They weren’t being impolite, but I found the whole thing obscene.

I was never a particlularly observant Jew as a youth (it’s hard to be an observant Jew when you are an atheist), and never a particularly observant one as a younger man either. But I at least knew that one does not eat cheese with meat, and had more class than to ask for a cheeseburger (or a BLT sandwich, my own preference) in a supposedly holy place to a G-d Who commanded His people not to mix dairy with meat or eat pork.

The ignorance of these children sickened me. And it was not my place to attempt to correct it, either. In fact, if I had even dared to try, I would have been fired. The ignorance of the kids was part of the “reform” program. They do not keep kosher. It’s just an option for them.

If you choose to associate yourself with such obscenity as propagating ignorance of Jewish Law (not to mention the obscenity of undermining the settlement movement in Judea and Samaria and purposely endangering the lives of Jews who live here), I feel entitled to imply that you are less than a Jew.

Do you see the difference between living in Jerusalem and Ma’alé Levoná?

Franco

#135 — Lisa Solod Warren

“Franco, I think even you can tell the difference between free speech and harrassment.”

Yes I can, and thank you for thinking.

Our laws protecting all of our free speech are all we have protecting this right, and we should not be confusing the freedom with harassment

Harassment vs Free Speech

Ruvy did not seek you out to harass you. It was in fact YOU who first sought out Ruvy and engaged him in your post #56 and made a direct counter assertion against him claiming he was wrong, and you did so without ever once articulating support for your claim.

If anything could be considered close to harassment it would be someone seeking someone out and challenging them and never supporting their challenge with anything other then baseless assertions. But even that is not harassment. It is rather simple just that, “baseless assertion”.

No one is claiming you do not have a right to choose to make a baseless assertion Lisa, But doesn’t everyone have a right if they choose to challenge a baseless assertion if they want to?

Is that not really the true meaning for why our free speech laws exist in the first place? To choose not to engage if they want, and to choose also too engage if they want, those are also freedoms are they not? I assert they are!

And if that is the case, how is it that you feel it is harassment? Do you think that as long as everyone agrees with you, and you do not have to craft and build an argument to support your assertion, then life is grand because there is no hassles when speaking your mind.

i assert that is what it is to you, a hassle, and you would rather have it look as if it were harrasment. It’s always easyer to blame the other.

No one made you engage Ruvy Lisa, you could have walked away like you say you do to those at Speaker’s Corner in London’s Hyde Park. But you instead choice to engage him and challenged him, and he responded with articulation. You do not have to accept his reasons, but at least he has a right to articulate a deference and assert it when challenged.

For you to suggest and cry harassment over his right, is to suggest a word that indicates his free speech is somehow unlawful. And I assert that is an extremely dangerous assertion Lisa, and especially coming from one who started the challenge in the first place. It also shows immaturity in understanding our laws of freedom.

It is not harassment, It is called discussion/debate and it can never be supported on baseless assertions. But all are free to try and make them, which you have full right to do.

But don’t get your nose out of joint when someone who defends their beliefs and articulates them as being harassment, because I have to say it again, it is the most dangerous thing to call our free speech rights.

A brief recap of over what you claim.

#56 – You tell Ruvy he is wrong but base it on nothing but your saying so.

#114 – Ruvy then responded and articulated a response to your baseless challenge.

#115 – You chose to re-engage him again, first calling him out on his nastiness (which I think was appropriate) then you re-assert your same baseless claim from post #56 failing again to provide any counter support for your claim by saying the folling ……

“I just don’t think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should) live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons.”

#116 – Ruvy response with – “Why don’t you try elaborating on these reasons, madame. Go ahead, dear. Explain yourself. Merely to say that there are many reasons for anything says nothing at all.”

#117 Zingzing then tries to come to your rescue with this misplaced chivalry ………“my god ruvy–she wants to lead her own life and not the one YOU think is prescribed for you.”
.
#118 Ruvy responds to zingzing with – “Let Lisa speak her own mind. She’s a big girl and can think for herself. I asked her to detail her reasons for her statement. I await her answer. It does not suffice to say “there are many reasons” as an argument. Little girls stamping their feet on the ground say things like that – or they assert “because!”

#130 – You finally articulate a response to Ruvy with – “My original comment was meant to convey the impossibility of Israel coping with a sudden influx of 3 1/2 million Americans and say, 600,000 French. I do not think it possible. You think it is? Fine.”

OK, right their you agree to allow Ruvy his assertion and to back away to and agreeing to disagree. Then you go on to say…..

“You know nothing about me or my life and I will not defend all my reasons for not immediately considering a move to Israel.”

OK, fine Lisa, you don’t have to, but don’t start a fight with someone and then cry and call there defense of their position harassment. It is not, and we need to “think” and not “feel” on this issue so we clearly understand these laws are there to protect all of us, even if we find it a hassle.

These laws of freedom should always be exalted for all to see, and never cast under the shadows of dangerous words like “harassment”

I have articulated my argument to you Lisa, you are free to challenge me and to rally on againt free speech rights all you want, but you will find a formatable defender of them in me should you choose.

Now, speaking of the need at exalting our laws of freedom instead of casting them in the shawdons of something else. I know that you write for the Huffington Post. I found a post there by Arianna Huffington that she herself posted back in July where she too tries to buries our great laws of freedom in her opinion piece. And this act is just as dangerous are yours. So I called her out on it in a posted here on BC a direct challenge against her for showing her contempt for them.

I ask you if you concur with my assertion against Arianna Huffington. If not, I challenge you to so cause why you disagree. You don’t have to take this challenge by any means and can instead just walk away, but until you, or someone else dose, It stands are proof of what I assert base on the evidence in my argument.

I will take on any and all comers on this one, because our laws of freedom should always be defended with such forceful assertion.

Now you know why I was surprised that you asked me if the chili I made was kosher, since I had mentioned serving it with manchego cheese.

I am not even Jewish, but I have had so many Jewish friends over the years, including a couple of rabbis, that I am relatively well-versed on traditions. I would venture to say probably more so than many Jewish gringos, at least.

I also make great challah and possibly the best latkes you could ever dream of, as well as a great borscht and what I suggested a poster on this site should stew in–chopped liver.

None of this matters, except that I try to inform myself about other folks’ customs instead of just prating racist drivel against brown folks from south of the Rio Bravo.

moon

And finally, Doc:

Your beanie doesn’t interest me, sorry about that. Now if it were of baby alpaca and Evo Morales were wearing it, a whole new ballgame would begin.

Now for something a bit more serious: There was a really good piece in La Jornada today which dealt in part with the intranslatable nature of Mexicanismos, and that one’s language implies the way one sees the world.

The author referred to the most notable example, which we discussed briefly some time back, “chingada”, and made the obligatory reference to Paz’s El laberinto de la soledad.

Then he mentioned the more current and omnipresent one, “guey”.

This was his opening to talking about the possibility of Obama’s being elected and the illusions that some folks in Mexico might have about what that means for this country–despite the fact that Gringolandia (HIS word, by the way, not mine) has always screwed Mexico over.

He ended by saying that he hoped very much that a couple of years into the Obama presidency, we wouldn’t all be saying and hearing: Guey, sí nos chingó Obama, bien y bonito.

Just an example of how things look from here.

Cindy D

I think this is a rough translation through idioms:

That dude, Obama, he fucked us right and proper.

Lisa Solod Warren

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Franco, I don’t know why you think you have a dog in this fight or feel ike Ruvy, with his Fundamentalist Torah thumping needs defening, but your parsing of his email was unnecessary,as was your accusation of me attacking him and then crying about it. If you followed this site you would know that Ruvy’s been asking me for months now why I don’t make aliyah, why I don’t subscribe to his brand of Judiasm (which is, apparently, the only possible road to follow) and why I won’t listen to his endless Bible versus telling me how wrong I am on everything and why, therefore I am not a real Jew.

it’s more than a little harrassing, besides being tiresome and ridiculous.

He asked for a defense of my reasons for not moving to Israel. I gave them (didn’t have to). Now he claims he wants many reasons why ALL Jews don’t. As if I know why 3 and 1/2 millions Americans don’t suddenly show up on Israel’s doorstep. HOW THE HELL CAN I ANSWER that question and why should I have to? To him or to you? What the hell?

I also said I didn’t think Israel could handle nearly 4 million Jews all at once because I don’t think they could. Pure and simple. Disagree with me? Fine.

So, because I practice (he assumes) the obscenity of not keeping kosher, I am not a real Jew.

Because I won’t make aliyah, I am not a real Jew.

Because I won’t enumerate the reasons why all Jews don’t, even though I told my own reasons why I won’t, I am not a real Jew.

But because I am Jewish at all, I think I run the world and I MUST shop at Bergdorfs and Bloomies and be a Jewish Princess, acc. to Moon.

And some of her best friends are Jews.

Whew.

I think it is high time to start picking on the Catholics. Wasn’t there some pedophile priest thread that never got picked up?

Or perhaps the Mormons….

Or even the Buddhists. Haven’t seen much on them lately, that I recall.

Hindi, anyone?

Or we could go for some of the more obscure religions.

We did Jesus, so he’s out.

Y’all pick.

moon

Cindy:

Close, but I can’t give you a cigar from La Habana–they’re prohibited in Gringolandia.

And I remember the 1968 motto: Prohibido prohibir, which the world has forgotten.

Closer would be: Dude, yep, Obama fucked us good and proper.

Franco

#141 — Cindy D

“I have often wondered why agnostics/atheists seem to be viewed as belittling religious people simply by A) expressing their own non-belief or B) making accurate, relevant and factual criticisms.”

As to your assertion (A): I do not see Ruvy (a Jew) making belittling claims to Christopher Rose about his belief in humanist spirituality. Additionally, I (a Christian) have not made any belittling claims about Christopher Rose’s beliefs in them either.

So I am not sure why you addressed this post to me.

However, Christopher Rose is the one who asserted that Ruvy’s belief was misguided (those are his words) which is “belittling” and then Christopher Rose asserts that his belief is the way on how to order the world.

Those are the facts Cindy clearly laid out for you againt your assertion (A) conserning Ruvy or I.

As to your assertion (B): You can believe whatever you want Cindy, and you can call your beliefs accurate, relevant and factual all day long and until the cows come home.

But so can Ruvy with his beliefs and so can I with mine. And most important, since we were not the ones belittling Christopher Rose beliefs, here once again, you are not facing the facts of what has transpired, so you can go pound your discredited sand utill the cows come home as well, until you fact them.

moon

Maybe it’s time to pick on pompous, self-righteous Brits?

Change–the motto of the moment.

Cindy D

Franco,

You’re getting carried away. What I wrote had nothing to do with anything you or Ruvy said to anyone. I wasn’t even writing about Ruvy. So, let’s leave Ruvy out of it, shall we?

You did not quote the word, “misguided”. You quoted a simple statement and then deconstructed it. I thought the deconstruction illogical and unreasonable. I said so. I was addressing your post, nothing more.

You may want to study what an either/or statement means. And find out what a generalization is. Then you might understand how A did not necessarily have to apply to you. I was a completion of my thought.

Moon: “Most countries are run by a criminal mafia, because the citizens of most countries do not give a flying fuck.”

Speak for yourself, Moon.

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Mexico certainly is run by a criminal mafia, even if not always directly. But your experience doesn’t translate to everyone’s, mine in particular.

Boring idiots might run my country, but the only thing criminal about them is that they haven’t got a clue.

Still, at least they have marginally more of no clue whatsoever than the other lying, boring idiots they’ve recently replaced.

Franco

#156 —Lisa Solod Warren

“Franco, I don’t know why you think you have a dog in this fight or feel ike Ruvy”

Lisa, are you having those imagery dilutions again of being “harassing”, but this time by me?

Lisa, you invited me in. You are the one who first engaged me over this in your post #135 in challenging me over a post that I made that was not even directed at you that had to do with my support for free speech.

Talk about putting a dog in a fight out of the blue? Now besides your having self-delusions of “harassment” you are now trying to also make some kind of point by way of hypocrisy?

You came in to where there was no challenge being made to you and challenged me directly over my understanding and support of free speech. It was only after your first acting in this regard that I put the dog in the fight. Are you really that unaware and or out of touch with your own actions?

Now let me say this about everything else you said about Ruvy harassing you for months on end on this Jewish issue.

First, I have known Ruvy her on BC for over two years now, and I have not seen him to be a stalker or troll going about harassing others.

Second, I hear you when you say you feel you are being harassed. And I know that that is not a nice feeling. So I am doing my best to help you with this misplaced feeling because it is untrue, unrealistic, and unworthy. To feel that way when you have used your free speech to challenge someone and then call it harassment when they challenge you back using their free speech, is childish hypocrisy.

Just like you did to me in your post #156 with I am addressing now, and you call me harassing you. Girl, you have a serious problem taking responsablty for your own actions.

You are proving Jack Nicholson’s comment true in the movie “As Good As It Gets” when his is asked how he rates women so well. “I think of a man, and take away reason and accountability”

Third, I am not supporting any of Ruyy’s assertions, nor harrasing you about them, those are his and belong to him. I am only supporting his right to make his assertions. The former belongs to Ruvy, the latter belongs to all of us and that has been the only point I have asserted in this. And I defy you to try and prove otherwise.

Fouth, let me ask you some questions.

Have you been engaging Ruvy over these past few months on these issues and discussing/debating (challenging) him with on them as you have with him in this thread, and with me in this thread also?

Why can’t you see that stepping into the ring and challenging someone is going to get you challenged back, how is it that you can’t make this connection?

Here, let me use a simpler example. If you were to stop at Speaker’s Corner in London’s Hyde Park and engage one of the speakers and challenge them, what do you think the chances are that they would engage you back? I assert that you know they would so that is way you don’t, as you yourslef said, you walked away. So what’s the problem her with you on BC in not doing the same thing?

Get it? If you don’t like the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you can’t stay out of the kitchen, then don’t call the heat “harassment”.

It is one of the worst things you can call free speech.

Now if you want to go to the hassle of proving Ruvy is in fact a stalker/troll harassing you, show us the evidence where you do not challenge him and he acts alone in pushing himself upon you. I wait to hear your case.

I also wait to hear if you concur with my assertrions agains Aianna Huffington, and in not, to hear your case on that too.

“Some plague the people with too long sermons; for the faculty of listening is a tender thing, and soon becomes weary and satiated.”

Martin Luther

Franco

#160 — Cindy D

You did not quote the word, “misguided”. You quoted a simple statement and then deconstructed it. I thought the deconstruction illogical and unreasonable. I said so. I was addressing your post, nothing more.

I referenced CR’s post #131 at the head of my comment so that all could read it for them selves in full, That is way I referenced it.

My pasting his full comment in my post would have been redundant. I am sorry you felt my deconstruct of his statements were not logical to you.

My making it clearer in my response post by adding one word from his origal post “misgidede” was always there, and if I had thought it’s abssence would have confused anyones logic, I would have used it the first time.

I am not changing my assertion or its meaing from my orgianl post if that is what your getting at. To suggest that would truly be illongical.

Christopher Rose is the one who asserted that Ruvy’s belief was misguided (those are his words) which is “belittling” and then Christopher Rose asserts that his belief is the way on how to order the world.

That is what CR asserted and I was calling both CR and Ruvy’s assertion worthy of free speech, nothing more and nothing less, even though each asserts theirs is right.

Now, if you would like to keep tring to make someting else out of it. I can play!

I do not believe Cindy was ever making reference to me at all. She was attempting to keep to the topic at the top of the screen. In the work I’m editing, the lawyer tends to outrun the advocate. In your case, the advocate appears to have outrun the lawyer. Thanks a big one anyway!

Marthe (moon), the only reason I asked you if that recipe was kosher on a different thread was sheer curiosity – it sounded delicious and if the opportunity ever arose, I wanted to try it. After managing a fast food joint for a dozen years, SLOW FOOD most assuredly interests me. I mean to get back to our convo on a different thread on genocide, but soon I must return to editing the tome referred to above….

And finally, Lisa, written for you while you sleep – just like that brand of bakery bread they sell on the East Coast.

I asked you a question. You stated:

“I just don’t think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should) live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons.”

Why don’t you try elaborating on these reasons, madame. Go ahead, dear. Explain yourself. Merely to say that there are many reasons for anything says nothing at all. I still await your answer.

While you’ve screamed and squealed like a stuck pig in several comments, you still haven’t answered me.

As to your parents who you care for in the States, let me again repeat and make clear. I hope they both enjoy a full recovery from what ails them. From what I remember you writing of your father, he has been a tzaddik. Barring that, if that should not occur, G-d forbid, may they both feel comforted by the presence of a loving daughter.

I do not inquire as to your peersonal reasons for making or not making aliya to this country. Basically, it is none of my damned business. But I still await an answer to my question, which is more general – as was your assertion.

troll

Ruvy – is there a passage in your holy books that is the equivalent of: ‘don’t put all of your eggs in one basket’ – ?

Lisa Solod Warren

1. Franco: Ruvy’s continually accosting me for not believing as he does is akin to the holy Bible thumpers of my youth following me around telling me that if I don’t believe in Jesus I won’t go to Heaven. You don’t think that is harrassment but free speech. I find it a form of hate speech.

2. Ruvy, why can’t you read? I gave you my personal reason. I can’t give you any others. I don’t know them. I can only guess and that is not fair. I do nor represent others. Ask them.

As an aside, I do not personally like the idea of all Jews in one place because, perhaps paranoidly, it makes us easier to get rid of all in one fell swoop.

3, My parents are dying. They will not get well, ever.

4. Your calling me screaming and squealing is jut another reason why I cannot have any kind of dialogue with you.

and 5. Franco, I have no intention of reading or defending Arianna or her piece. I write for HuffPo but I do not agree with everthing written for it, just as I do not agree with everything written here and would not be willing to read or defend everything written on this site. I have a busy life with children, work and a husband and I do not have time for an “assignment” you give me, that if I do not do you will take as some sort of denial of my support of free speech.

You may do with that as you will. I shall give you no “assignments,” Franco.

Try not to forget that miracles do happen and can…. We tend to say in Hebrew al tismókh ‘al nisím – don’t rely on miracles. But we can rely on prayer. Of course, that is easy for me to say and hard for you to try to do as you are in the midst of a very painful situation; perhaps for me to suggest anything seems impertinent and insensitive from 8,000 miles away. If what I’ve said above hurts, you, I sincerely apologize. My intention is not to hurt you at all in this.

Ruvy, why can’t you read? I gave you my personal reason. I can’t give you any others. I don’t know them. I can only guess and that is not fair. I do nor represent others. Ask them.

As an aside, I do not personally like the idea of all Jews in one place because, perhaps paranoidly, it makes us easier to get rid of all in one fell swoop.

So, first you make an assertion, then you accuse me of lecturing you, and don’t answer, then you say “you don’t know”…. Finally, you do come up with the one intelligent answer that there is to my question.

Couldn’t you have just done that the first time, and said that this was the only intelligent reason you could come up with? That might have saved all of us a lot of typing….

Anyway, it’s almost 09:00 on the East Coast, and i suspect you have a busy day ahead of you, so I’ll let you go….

Thank you. We changed back to the winter clock in early October a day or two before Yom Kippur so that the fast would be over earlier. That’s the custom around here. I’ll have to change my clocks set to New York and St. Paul time accordingly.

Cindy D

Franco,

Then you need to learn how to write. As well as how to read. When somebody says,

“Then Christopher Rose gets up on his own soapbox and belittles the truth of others by proclaiming his own truth as superior with his following assertion.”

That means the quote you make which follows will contain the proof of your premise.

The proof should not be something elsewhere in some other post or universe or even in your imagination.

Here is an example:

RE: #134

With his following assertion, Franco claims that free speech should always be protected:

“…both of you can have your say and or walk away.”

Cindy D

Of course that is an example of the error.

Cindy D

Ruvy,

“I do not believe Cindy was ever making reference to me at all.”

That is correct.

“She was attempting to keep to the topic at the top of the screen.”

That is incorrect. I was merely defending a belief which I hold in common with another. What I did would be more like if a fellow Jew’s comment was attacked and you thought the attack was illogical and so you spoke out.

I would, one day when the subject comes up, enjoy a discussion with you regarding your political persuasion. I am sure you could teach me some things.

troll

I’d been wavering filled with dread and existential angst over my vote and its meaning until this attack ad finalized my decision

Franco

#171 — Cindy D

The proof should not be something elsewhere in some other post or universe or even in your imagination.

———————————————-

#131 — November 2, 2008 @ 09:09AM — Christopher Rose

There’s nothing to be done about Ruvy, Lisa. He’s like one of those people that give up smoking and are then forever bothering people who haven’t. He is so sure that his strand of faithist views are correct that he can’t resist chundering on about it all the time and trying to patronise other people’s views. It would be endearing if it wasn’t all so tragically misguided.

If he was British, you’d likely find him every weekend on a soapbox at Speaker’s Corner in London’s Hyde Park, along with all the other extremists who think they know how to order the world.

I’m not actually sure that either Ruvy is a bit schizo or two people are posting under his name, given that sometimes he posts in a reasonable tone and other times he goes all fundamentalist on us.

It is a profoundly sad affair to see such determined faithism getting in the way of a real humanist spirituality, to the detriment of all of us.

———————————————–

There’s the whole CR post #131. Those are CR words used against Ruvy’s to first belittle his beliefs. Then in closing CR gets on his own soapbox and asserts his beliefs in humanist spirituality as superior, while ending his soapbox speech with one more attack on Rury’s beliefs in claiming they are a detriment of all of us.

Now lets have Ruvy say the same thing to CR using CR own words, which was what you called my missing primis.

It is a profoundly sad affair to see such determined humanist spirituality getting in the way of a real Jewish faith, to the detriment of all of us.

Ruvy did not say that, but CR said it about Ruvy, and that is my point.

Now, you may believe CR beliefs are correct and Rucy’s are wrong. Good for you, but I could not care less, because I never supported one over the other. I only made supporting argument for both Ruvy and CR to assert their own beliefs.

I was defending both the right to free speech Cindy, which you never even addressed.

zingzing

the thing is, franco, that ruvy’s point of view, be it jewish or not, is leading to large amounts of bloodshed, in a conflict that has become on of the central issues in the world today. our own major conflict, “the war on terror,” stems from this conflict. if ruvy’s conflict ever ends, ours is on the way out as well.

people should learn to live together, but ruvy seems almost consumed by bloodlust. the sad part, i think, is that he seems to be using his jewish beliefs as a backbone for his ridiculous views on that conflict. as if god was a real estate agent or a property lawyer who gives out parcels of land for eternity.

there are other ways in which ruvy’s beliefs are bothersome, but they don’t affect such a large portion of the earth. he can believe that jews should return to israel, and that all who don’t are breaking god’s law. that doesn’t have any effect upon me. i’m sure the hasidic jews in the neighborhood next to me would disagree…

but if you look at chris’ term “humanist spirituality,” as just a couple of words and not some major philosophy–i.e. “a spiritual belief that all human life is sacred”–it’s a far more inclusive belief than ruvy’s “jewish right and responsibility to israel” will ever be.

ruvy has every right to be religious and to believe in his jewish philosophy. but, he is misguided if he thinks that any part of being jewish means “kill or be killed.” if that’s what he’s getting out of it, he’s either misread or he’s fallen for some horrible trick.

Cindy D

Franco,

You are justifying. If you meant to say all that, you should have said it.

You’re welcome Ruvy. Please keep in mind however that I was defending everyone’s right to free speech.

I do this because I see it coming under attack more and more these days with words like “harassment” or “hate speech” and other such negative adjectives.

People are getting sloppy about this and this spoppiness is starting to become abusive to get it to work in their favor as the expences of someone they don’t agree with. It is a dangerious pretext to let get stated uncheck in our discouse.

I do not believe Cindy was ever making reference to me at all.

That is correct. Cindy came after me over my post #134 comments I made about Christopher Rose’s posts #131 which was attacking you, which I had felt had the tone of saying your free speech was a detriment to us all. I did not like that tone. So I called it out.

Again, this too was only about supporting the right both you and CR to voice your views. Cindy’s just bent because she liked CR post and wanted the dogs loosed on me.

Franco

#178 — Cindy D

You are justifying. If you meant to say all that, you should have said it.

You didn’t. I pointed out that you didn’t.

I see, it could be that it just went right over your head in the fist place. OK, if you need that out you can have it.

Ruvy’s view is not being carried out. You need to carry out a policy to get results. I don’t give a rat’s ass what you think of my views – if they are not carried out, they’ll have no results.

Ruvy’s views, if carried out, can lead to a lot of bloodshed. But the blood shed would not be that of Ruvy or HIS people – it would be that of those who would murder Ruvy and his people. Ruvy can handle that. That’s what he told me when I last spoke with him….

More to the point, since Ruvy wants to live at peace with his neighbors, he is less likely to target them as much as the “humanists” who foment war in this region. These are the Europeans and Americans who interfere in one way or another and foment bloodshed between the Children of Abraham.

These are all the pricks from the “NGO’s” who support terror groups, the members of the CIA who train Arab sharpshooters to kill Jews, and the like. In addition, loads of running dog Jews would be jailed, so they could no longer foment Arab violence against Jews. These would be groups like “Peace Now” and their American check-writers overseas. The boys from the Ford Foundation (it all starts with a Ford), who continually foment activity to weaken Israel, would find their funds frozen or seized. All the American support groups (probably the Reform Jewish organizations here, too – sorry Lisa) would have their funds and property seized as well. Their crime would not be disagreeing with the government. Their crime would be conspiring to cause the death of Jews in the Land of Israel.

In other words, zing, RUVY’S targets would be those foreigners from your shores who foment war here. Shits like Jim Baker, Condalleeza Rice, Zbigniew Brzinski, Henry Kissinger and all the running dogs who are their puppets would find themselves persona non grata if they are foreigners, or Israelis jailed for sedition or treason.

Ruvy does not want to endanger good Jewish soldiers in chasing unnecessarily after Arabs. There are other ways to deal with the problem, some more peaceful, some seemingly brutal at first, but which bring peace in the end.

Finally, zing, the entire Land of Israel is the rightful property of the Jewish people. So it would be annexed and those willing to live in peace with us would live in peace, undisturbed and undiscriminated against. The discrimination that has characterized treatment of Arabs in the past, would be a thing of the past. Ruvy knows what it is to be a minority, and has never forgotten.

troll

…yup – you Israelis need your lebensraum for His thousand year Reich

zingzing

glad to hear it, ruvy. but i don’t believe you, at least not all of the time. you seem to be actively searching for bloodshed 75% of the time, and quite willing to engage in such activities. and you know as well as i do that when you say, “the blood shed would not be that of Ruvy or HIS people – it would be that of those who would murder Ruvy and his people,” it’s not only going to be the blood of arabs/interloping westerners that’s going to be spilled, it’s going to be your own people’s as well.

“RUVY’S targets would be those foreigners from your shores who foment war here.”

yeah, well, from your own words (and background,) that would be you as well. you know what you’ve said in the past is not jiving with your comment above. some days, you’re gung-ho for war with palestine. some days, you’re not… at least in part.

there’s a duality to your thought here. but you can’t have it both ways. if you continue to spill the blood of those that would spill your own, you’re just continuing the same disastrous cycle of violence that has been running around and around for thousands of years.

but i agree with you, in part. america/europe should have no part of this conflict, except in trying to resolve it through diplomacy. if you two nations need to be sat down in the corner and told to talk it out, i think it’s acceptable for someone to try and get that done. but giving weapons to you and “training arab sharpshooters” (hard to believe we’d do both at once, but i wouldn’t put it past us) is counter-productive at best.

“Finally, zing, the entire Land of Israel is the rightful property of the Jewish people.”

it’s also the rightful home of many arabs.

“So it would be annexed and those willing to live in peace with us would live in peace, undisturbed and undiscriminated against. The discrimination that has characterized treatment of Arabs in the past, would be a thing of the past. Ruvy knows what it is to be a minority, and has never forgotten.”

this is the best thing you’ve ever written on the subject. i hope you actually do mean it. that, right there, is how this thing is going to be rightfully concluded, if that can ever happen. yet, somehow, zealotry on both sides will probably never allow it. let’s hope for the improbable, and wish everyone peace.

Oh, by the way, zing. George Bush and his immediate predecessors and successors would also be persona non grata, along with the Ratzinger, the Brit PM, and a host of other foreign “worthies” like Jimmy Carter and the assorted Clintons clowns.

You, on the other hand, for all you disgusting views, would be welcome here. Tourists bring income.

zingzing

really, ruvy… what’s disgusting about my views? that you should just both learn to live in peace? that we’re all at fault? that you both have rights?

what’s disgusting about my views? that you should just both learn to live in peace? that we’re all at fault? that you both have rights?

No zing. What is disgusting about them is that you shoot from the hip when you haven’t a clue of what you are talking about – but you act as if you know, anyway. Similar to a certian comments editor I’m familiar with….

zingzing

shooting from the hip isn’t a view.

and just as an outsider’s perspective on u.s. politics is good to hear, i’m sure an outsider’s perspective on your conflict, even if it (admittedly) simplifies things, could provide some perspective. if you don’t want to hear it, that’s your call. but from the outside, the whole thing looks like a couple of children squabbling over something that would be more fun for everyone if you just learned to share.

the whole thing looks like a couple of children squabbling over something that would be more fun for everyone if you just learned to share.

If it were only that simple. One of the big problems we have here is too damned many “outsiders’s perspectives” along with their money, interests and agendae.

Franco

#167 — Lisa Solod Warren

Franco: Ruvy’s continually accosting me for not believing as he does is akin to the holy Bible thumpers of my youth following me around telling me that if I don’t believe in Jesus I won’t go to Heaven. You don’t think that is harrassment but free speech. I find it a form of hate speech.

Lisa, can you say, “thanks but no thanks”, and walk away?

Or is having to do that in life at times a hassle for you, and you don’t like having this hassle.

Additionally, I sight your use of the words “following me around” and I assert that they are a gross misrepresentation.

I live in the same US that you do, and while Christians have come up to me, or come to my door, I can quickly turn them away if I choose. I have never once had a Christian follow me around after I said no thanks. In fact I have never had any of the faiths follow me around after I said no thanks.

When you talk about someone ‘following you around” you are taking about someone ‘stalking” you, and that is harassment. So if you really had some Christian in your life that ‘stalked’ you after you said (thanks but no thanks I choose not to dissucssit)then your right, you were harassed and they were dead wrong for doing it. But I assert that this is the extreem exception and not the rule.

And as far as Ruvy is concened here on BC, what I have seen you evidence is your continued engagement with him in disscussion/debate, and those actions by you are the exact oppisite of saying, thanks Ruvy, but no thanks and I choose not to discuss it anymore.

If you backed off and Ruvy “stalks you” then that would be harrasemnt and you would find me coming to your defence. But as long as you want to contiue to disscuss/debate with him, you, and you only, keep the ball rolling.

Can you hold you tong and walk away? If so, watch what you call harrasment quickly disaper.

Now after going aound on this free speech issue and making arguments in support of it, you have not voices any support for it, in fact you continue to attack it.

And you have escalated your attack on free speech by introduing and adding the words “hate speech”

So in have the following question about your new word attack on free speech.

Are you saying that it is “hate speech” for a Christian to say to anyone in a discussion/debate with them, that if they tell you that if you don’t believe in Jesus you won’t go to Heaven. And are you saying that that is hate speech? And it so, do you think is should be against the law for them to say it?

Please clarify this for me and feel free to set your own perimeters as when this would quality as being hate speech and thus if you think it should be against the law in your view.

Franco

#177 — zingzing

Everything you assert against Ruvy and his Jewish faith can be “equally” asserted against the Arab’s and their Muslim faith over this issue of Israel.

And since the Arab’s control 99.99% of the Middle East, and Jews only controls 00.01% of the Middle East, I ask you to explain way you side against Ruvy on his insistence for defending this 00.01% of the Middle East land and then justify you position under the light of “humanist spirituality,”

Franco

zingzing,

I too would love to see both Arab and Jew bury the hatchet and find peace together. But what ever gave you the idea that the Arab’s want peace with the Jews.

Better question, what would the Jews need to do to have peace with the Arabs?

zingzing

franco #193–

no one has said either side wants peace. but someone has to. and someone has to go for it first. whoever does is the better person, but whoever agrees to that peace is a better person as well.

all the jews and the arabs need to do is to learn to respect each other and their equal rights to that land. nothing anywhere says with any authority says that it belongs to either, so it belongs to both. creating a jewish state of israel was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century, looking at it in hindsight.

that’s not to say that the jewish state of israel should be destroyed in any matter, physically or politically… it can’t be, because it’s already there.

but in order to have peace, both the jews and the arabs need to learn to live together in peace. it’s not hard. it’s a lot easier than war. a whole lot easier.

zing, Franco, I hate to break this to y’all and interrupt the guitars playing “Kumbaya”.

The problems in Israel are not exactly the Arabs. They are the background noise (a firebomb explodes in the background) against which the real problems militate against us. This came in my inbox today.

Barry Chamish: During the Hebron withdrawal debate of ’96, Peres said of Netanyahu’s Refuser Science Minister, Benny Begin [MenaHem Begin’s son], IN THE KNESSET, “I’m sick of you and your shitty family.” Yehuda [the son] was dead two months later of “Vertigo.”

Meir: What?????? That he too would be a marked man?

G-D FORBID! He should live in HEALTH until 120 yrs………

Barry Chamish: Benny [Begin] quit politics after his son Yehuda was murdered.

Keep a watch on his back.

We have a murderer for a State President. He arranged for the death of YitzHak Rabin because Rabin was planning to back out of the Olso Accords (and fuck up a lot of Peres’ business arrangements), he arranged for the murder of ReHavam Ze’evi because he was going to expose Peres’ role in Rabin’s murder. There is a former congressman dead also, as well as a former commander in the army.

This country is run by a criminal mafia, and the chief of that mafia is the State President, Shimon Peres. Now, gentlemen, go back and read comment #182 one more time and consider what I’ve been talking about about foreign bought politicians here. Peres is not an American flunky but a European one.

I’m gonna do something unheard of – I’m going stick to the concept of the article – sort of. This came in on e-mail a bit ago from South Florida:

I have no idea what the heck is going on, but the traffic is all backed up – and police are in the streets. I have to finish my shopping for my Father, and came in to get the rest of his groceries that is in my house that I bought this morning for him.

I know that tomorrow the schools here will not be in session, that they will be polling places only. Looks like there is a lot of security over here now getting in place.

Is anyone else seeing this in their hometown?
Talk to you all later, I have to go.

— Joni

zingzing

franco: “Everything you assert against Ruvy and his Jewish faith can be “equally” asserted against the Arab’s and their Muslim faith over this issue of Israel. ”

true. i never said any different. they’re both foolish.

“And since the Arab’s control 99.99% of the Middle East, and Jews only controls 00.01% of the Middle East, I ask you to explain way you side against Ruvy on his insistence for defending this 00.01% of the Middle East land and then justify you position under the light of “humanist spirituality,” ”

i’m not siding WITH the arabs AGAINST ruvy/the jews. i’m just saying that it’s this mentality of kill or be killed that continues this entire farce. i’ve always maintained that both sides are wrong.

Lisa Solod Warren

Franco, You have no idea how it is to live as Jew in the South in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Yes, I was followed and yes terrible things were said more times than you could imagine. Most people who live in the U.S. have a hard time believing this, as do many white people have a hard time believing racism exists. That is one of the problems with the U.S. People who have never been subjected to it can’t really imagine it.

And I beg to differ. Every post Ruvy has made to me has included some comment about my not making aliyah and not believing as he does, therefore not being a “good Jew,” and there for, in my opinion, harrassing. Sure, I could leave it and ignore it. But it’s out there in every post where he responds to whatever I write, to whatever I say, even if it has nothing to do with him or the subject matter at hand. It is also often included in his responses to others.

Whenever he posts on any subject he nearly always makes sure to make mention of the fact that all Jews who do not live as he does are not living by Biblical code.

I still don’t understand why I must defend myself to you, his surrogate. So I shall leave it here. And from now on, now that my position is well known, I shall let Ruvy throw his attacks at me, and thus by extension at any Jew who does not live or practice as he does.

Free speech? I suppose you are right. Ugly, harrassing, overbearing, unpleasant, too, and for me, it brings up memories I would rather not have to think about again. Especially unpleasant coming from a member of my own race who seems to have gone to a country of refuge and become a rabid and very angry and unpleasant person bent on trying to convert (which is one thing Jews DON’T do) other members of our faith. I concede that perhaps, Franco, it does not qualify as hate speech, and there are those, in fact, who argue that hate speech does not even exist. But it IS hateful.

But, on this list, Ruvy might do well to realize he is not going to convert me or anyone else and he might be better off just writing his columns as he wishes and stop proseltyzing like an old-fashioned hellfire and brimstone preacher when the occasion never warrants it, even though to him the occasion ALWAYS warrants it.

Lisa is right about how hard it was to live as a Jew of any variety in the South in the decades of the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s. By comparison, Jews in New York, New Jersey or Connecticut had it real easy. But in the middle of the last (Christian) century until the late ’60’s even Jews in New York kept a low profile. That only changed with the Six Day War and the founding of the Jewish Defense League.

I do not envy her – or any Jew – who had to live in the South, or even among the Jew-haters in upstate New York, or southern New Jersey.

If you are not reallly secure about who and what you are, the kind of crap Jews had to take from Christians left real psychic scarring.

I was raised as a conservative Jew in the ’50s and ’60’s. In those days, conservative Jews were almost the same as the “orthodox” Torah-observant Jews except that they allowed women to sit with men in synagogue, were not so pushy on sexual purity laws, and allowed men and women to dance together.

I got a very thin Jewish education, so it wasn’t hard for atheism to claim me as a youth.

The reform Jews, which is what Lisa is, were always different. They had started out by bannning Hebrew from the services, substituting the language of the country, stating that all of the Torah was a mere option, and pretty much doing away with the Sabbath and keeping kosher as institutions. The women would still light candles on Friday nights, but the way the reform Jews looked at it, the idea was merely to make the Sabbath different from the rest of the week.

To put it bluntly the reform “rabbis” Christianized the religion to make services more like church services, adopting titles like “reverend”, etc.

Over the years, the conservative Jews became more and more like the reform in how they did things. They still use Hebrew more than the reform Jews do (and reform Jewsw use more Hebrew thqn they used to), but “conservative Judaism” has become as thinly diluted a “faith” as “reform” is. The problem with these people is not that they are bad people, but that they have chosen ignorance of Jewish law, custom and tradition, opting instead for the politically liberal “flavor of the week” as what mattered to them.

To put it bluntly, they do not know Torah, they do not know Tana”kh, they do not know Talmud, nor Gemara nor even Kabbala. And they do not care if they do not! For a while, Israel was the “flavor of the week” so they were interested in Israel. But after falling for the bullshit of the “Palestinians” they now tend to favor them instead of Jews, and intervene in politics here and in America to help the Arabs. You can find the Jews of Americans for Peace Now for example, in the reform “temples”. You will find very very few Torah observant Jews in such traitorous organizations.

It goes without saying that the vast majority of these Jews have little or no interest in moving to Israel. Let’s leave Lisa aside for the moment. She has painful personal issues to deal with that would prevent her from even considering leaving the States.

For the vast majority of Jews moving from the States to Israel, the move means a huge drop in their standard of living. Nobody likes to be poorer. And the reform and conservative Jews have done well, and especially do not feel any reason to sacrifice their prosperity to live in a country like this one. Many Torah-observant Jews are no different, and make every excuse they can dig up not to obey the precept to return home. But, as it stands now, the vast majority of Jews who move here are Torah-observant Jews, committed to keeping the Sabbath, kashrut and the commandments – all 613 of them. I was not one of these people when we moved here, but became so turned off by the local version of conservative Judaism that we bit by bit became Torah-observant.

Now, Franco, go back over the back and forth between Lisa and me. Knowing what I know now about her, I would never presume to say she should consider moving away from her ailing parents, a point I made twice to her (and now express for a third time). But she is upset, so does not wish to consider this.

I have no interest in “converting” the young lady – a term of politeness here. She has lived a good part of her life as what she is and is unlikely to change – or want to change, let’s put it that way. Events may change her point of view, but I certainly cannot. Not only that, she is unwilling to even consider adding to her stock of Jewish knowledge from mine.

So, she writes about Armaggedon – like a Christian might – instead of the End of Days or the War of Gog and Magog. She compares me to a “bible thumping fundamentalist”, as though I were a Christian. Like kids in a reform temple asking the BK manager for cheeseburgers, her comments are obscene. This does not take away from the decency she shows as a loving daughter to her parents, nor from the high level of understanding of righteousness her father showed as a factory owner. But her comments are still obscene. I understand that she is upset and pained over the condition of her parents. But that does not make me the utterer of hate speech.

I have told the truth. And I have said all I care to say on the matter.

Lisa Solod Warren

Ruvy, One quick note. Although there is no place for that on this site, I wish you to know that I am far more learned about Judiasm than you know or give me credit for; again, that I do not choose to agree with you or learn FROM you or worship as you do does not mean I am ignorant or an unbeliever. You make illogiical assumptions and it is that have caused me to equate you with those who would try and “convert” me to their way of thinking. One thing I have always appreciated about being a Jew is the ability to read, question, discuss and debate. Many very observant and learned scholars feel the Torah is a fluid document. Personally, I agree. My way may not be yours and you may not approve. But I have also told my truth.

PS. At six and eight years old being “secure” in who one is is not an option. You are extremely self-righteous in your new found faith, aren’t you? That certainly isn’t very Biblical of you. Neither is calling someone obscene because they order a cheeseburger. It’s hyperbole and that kind of exaggeration makes it impossible to learn from you. Which is why I take instruction from my rabbi and from other calmer and more rational learned people.

Franco

#197 — Lisa Solod Warren

Lisa,

I have to conclude that what you experienced when you were young was in fact verbal harassment. I agree with you that that is stepping over the line of free speech rights.

In light of that fact, I thank your for showing your support for free speech and I solute you for the courage to do it.

As I noted before, you will find me every bit you’re surrogate as over your free speech rights. Not for what you say, but for your right to say it. Which was always my position for Ruvy, and never once did I do it to support what he believes. I hope you understand that.

I am not some free speech cop, I just believe we, as citizens should not let cultural expressions develop against free speech without being challenged. These freedoms are that important to all of us, and that includes all of us.

Again, thank you for replying with such a positive post in favor of it.

Franco

#198 — Ruvy

Thank you for all your efforts and insights into all of what you presented. It has helped me understand you better on this matter, and will do the same when we are on other subjects as well.

Speaking of other subjects. In your post #194 you assert…..

This country is run by a criminal mafia, and the chief of that mafia is the State President, Shimon Peres. He arranged for the death of YitzHak Rabin because Rabin was planning to back out of the Olso Accords (and fuck up a lot of Peres’ business arrangements)

I have the following questions.

1) Are you saying that Peres’s motives are exclusively for money and wealth, and have nothing to do with making a peace settelment?
2) Dose that apply to all those in power it Israel in favor of the Olso Accords?

zingzing

slurping sound

Franco

zingzing, have a little faith, don’t pre-quess me so quickly.

You yourself said in post #193 that no one on either side seems to want peace.

I am only seeking Ruvy’s persectives (as on side in this) and finding about what he thinks is that keeps side from peace which he aluded to in his posts to both of us. Can you go along?

zingzing

hrm. your comment wasn’t up between the time i loaded and pressed *click*. so your comment… anyway, i went out and got drunk after and here i am now, seeing what… meh. that wasn’t in reply to you.

Just a verty brief comment for you – please go, if you have the time, to Santa Claus and the Madness of Christmas. There is probably nothing special in the article itself to impress you, but go down to the comments section and follow the back and forth between Elvira Black and me.

I’m not interested in telling you what to do or not to do, or what to believe or not to believe, but you will understand from that back and forth what I do think as opposed to what you may feel I think.

the Torah is a fluid document – the understatement of the year. The Torah is more than just a very fluid document, it is a key that unlocks many of the mysteries that occurred here in ancient times. Used properly, one can trace many key events and interpret them rather clearly. But I’ll not burden you with those thoughts here. This is not the appropriate forum for that discussion, as you point out.

In the meantime, friends of mine from South Florida tell of interesting events occurring there; see comment #195 supra.

1) Are you saying that Peres’s motives are exclusively for money and wealth, and have nothing to do with making a peace settlement?
2) Does that apply to all those in power in Israel in favor of the Olso Accords?

Just as I directed Lisa to a previous article I wrote here, I will direct you as well. This is a series called “In the Shadow of the Six Day War”. The specific article you need to go to is Part III. This part covers the beginning og the Oslo Accords. The specific part you need to go to, after reading the article, is the first comment in the thread, which covers and interview the editors here decided to delete from the article.

The short answer is that for the Labor politicians in Israel in particular, the PLO, and its pathetic construct, “the Palestinian Authority”, was a cash cow. When Hamas won power, the connections that made money for these Labor politicians all disappeared. It might interest you to know that the personal attorney for Ariel Sharon, Dov Veisglas, was also the attorney for the firm handling business for Yassir Arafat, y”sh.

Cannonshop

#196 When people insist on shooting at you, and teach their children to be guided bombs against you, it’s pretty clear-they want to kill you. If you don’t kill them, they will kill you.

Kill-or-be-killed isn’t a farce or false impression when people are trying to kill you. It’s a fact.

You are a great guy to have at one’s back, but please read the article I sent Frnaco to above. Better yet, read the whole damned series.

If only I could be proud of the police uniform I wear as a volunteer. If only I could feel the full faith in the young men who wear the uniform of the only Jewish Army on the face of the earth. If only….

Yehuda Begin was murdered at the orders of Peres’ hit squad. The son of a lawyer I know was murdered the same way. They strike at the children, so as to demoralize the parents. ShalHevet Pass was murdered in her father’s arms by an CIA-trained Arab sniper. But it was Pass who was ultimately harrassed and imprisoned illegally by the Shaba”k. The evil that crouches at Government Hill is palpable (I used to be a “guard” for the Prime Minister’s Office, Israel’s equivalent of the Executive Office Building, when Cabinet meetings took place).

Imagine if the secret police murdered the children of a publisher who had fallen out of favor of the government. That is what happens in this country.

Cannonshop

It sounds an awful lot like there needs to be a housecleaning in your country, Ruvy. I’m a bit concerned that what’s going on where you are, may soon be going on here (if it isn’t already).

I’m not up to speed on the religious side of your discussion with Lisa-I’m not a Jew, nor Christian, nor any of the associated faiths, and the scholarship is rather confusing for me.

It may be time for those who are NOT of that sort, to take matters into their own hands. If Peres is fielding death-squads, then those squads have families, they have a place they feel safe, and they have names and identities. If he holds power through violence, then violent deaths should be revisited upon his followers. It’s not Christian, it’s probably not Jewish, but Vengeance and Justice are moral imperatives, if Justice can not be achieved, then Vengeance is a morally acceptable substitute when blood money (compensation for the wrongfully slain) is not offered.

A friend of mine called not too long ago commenting that “this is the big day”. A brother of his is an Obama volunteer in the States and was telling him about the 35 page on-line booklet of instructions that he had to attempt to absorb. My friend’s brother marvelled at the immensity of the Obama organization.

Looks like you guys are getting the best president Arab money can buy. It’s not merely the fact that Obama is swimming in Arab money. He is a smart man, extremely so, and he has either designed or ordered designed and thought of details that many candidates just do not think of.

If this is a foretaste of the Obama sdministrative style, you are all in for a replay of the Carter administration. He too, was a very intelliogent micro-manager. Of course, micro-managing has its faults, too. The Carter administration was proof of this.

bliffle

Dan(Miller) reveals the source of his confusion:

“You state that Senator Obama “has a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish as president.” I wish that I had a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish. With the Ayers, Dohrn, Wright, et al stuff rattling around with no adequate response, I don’t have such a vision of what he wants to accomplish.”

Your mistake is to assume that Ayers, Dohrn, etc., have a strong influence over the Obama vision. Did you ever consider that they are simply irrelevant? Or have you been distracted by the convenient hatred offered by Ayers, Dohrn, etc.?

Partisans shouldn’t become convinced by their own propaganda: it’s intended for the simpleminded.