This is not in scripture, but I would imagine that some people will be destroyed immediately, without pain. People like Hitler might burn a full day. Only God knows. But to suggest that it is cruel for God to do this is ignorant.

Yes, it IS cruel. Yes, we DO punish people for transgressions - but do we do it by torture, and by prolonged and painful means? Listen to what you are saying "it's NOT cruel to take a whole day to torture someone to death".

Yes it is. Your god is cruel. What would NOT be cruel is for there to be NO second death for those god doesn't like. They die, they stop - that's it. Their punishment is that they don't get to go on to heaven with god, there is no need whatsoever for an allegedly loving god to torture people when he has no need to.

And why does he do it? It's not like at that stage it can make them a better person - this is the second death, that they aren't coming back from. So all your god is doing is forcing pain on them so that they spend their last moments (or hours, for some) in abject pain and misery and fear.....and then they are gone. There's no lesson learned by them - all your god is doing is saying "ha! You were wrong! Now have some lengthy pain before you cease to exist".

It's inflicting pain that serves no purpose - and that is cruel and vindictive, and speaks quite clearly that your god is a disgusting monster who enjoys inflicting pain.

No he isn't. Lucifer didn't exist prior to Isaiah "predicting" the fall of the Babylonian king, and he doesn't exist afterwards, so you can't say "Lucifer is synbolized". You can say "Satan is symbolized". How can a Hebrew demon be called a Roman name? Why didn't 4th century Christians put Satan into Isaiah 14? Because neither Satan or Lucifer are in the Hebrew.

As I pointed out in 1 Enoch, there wasn't even a belief in 300BC that Satan (or Lucifer) was a fallen angel.

Anybody know a Lucifer? No. Nobody does.

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He is symbolized by the King of Tyre here:

Ezekiel 28:12-19‘You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald,

No he isn't . It's the King of Tyre.

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Any quesitons?

Why do Christians think they can read total crap out of the Bible and be taken seriously?

Please substantiate your belief that ancient Hebrews believed that the premiere fallen angel was called Satan.

Jake, you've asked "any questions?" Yep, I do. Please do show evidence for such a thing as Lucifer. And not just your little book of myths. If that is evidence to you, then any fictional character must be real per your own claims.

And I'm still waiting for you to support your claims about me, Jake. I'm waiting for you to show me the evidence that your Jesus even existed as well as that he didn't lie.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Alzael, It is not be who doesn't know something basic it is you. Of course there is a such thing as Lucifer. Isaiah 14:12 says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The verses that tell us about Lucifer are here:

Lucifer is symbolized by the King of Babylon here:

Isaiah 14:12-15"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven;I will raise my throne above the stars of God;I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

He is symbolized by the King of Tyre here:

Ezekiel 28:12-19‘You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl.Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned.So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.Your heart became proud on account of your beauty,and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

This next part has not yet happened, it refers to the destruction of Satan. As seen as a future event in Revelation.

So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you,and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you;you have come to a horrible end and will be no more."

No, it's still you that knows absolutely nothing. Apparently you even lack basic reading skills, which would actually explain a lot. I at not point said that the bible did not mention Lucifer. I said it never mentioned an angel by that name. The verses you quote refer to the King of Babylon and then the King of Tyre being addressed as such. That is because Lucifer exists as a title in the bible, not as a name. I also notice that you completely ignored when I pointed out that Jesus is sometimes reffered to as Lucifer as well. Just as I also pointed out your misconceptions of Satan.

So not only do you essentially no knowledge of your bible. We have also established that you have either very poor reading skills or are simply a liar, and you're too much of a coward to acknowledge when you're corrected.

Nothing further to analyze - Jesus clearly said you would receive what you wanted through any prayer - that means if I prayed for a naked girl to fall on my lap tonight I should receive that. (However, Jesus might have a sense of humor and provide me with a nasty, plump one)... but either way, I'm not going to end up with a woman tonight, which makes the argument that Jesus is god completely falsifiable.

You are a fool. You can not take one verse out of context and say, oh i asked for a girl and didn't get one. Completely ridiculous statement. First of all, you don't even believe in Jesus so you will not get anything from him if you ask. He is refering to those who believe in him. James 4:3 says, "When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." And here he is also talking to Christians.

If you truly believed you would receive what you ask for, but you would not ask for a naked girl. For example, I ask God for things, and I get them. Because you must ask according to his will. Not yours.

When I was deciding which college to go to he gave to me a half-tuition scholorship. And grants and other scholorships so I didn't have to pay the tuition at all. I ask him to supply my daily needs, and days when my paycheck is not enough to cover all my bills, somehow, I have enough. People give me food, I don't ask. God impresses on them that I need food. I ask God for understanding on the Bible, and sure enough a verse that I have difficulty understanding immediately I understand it. I ask him for the strength to resist temptations, and again sure enough whenever I am tempted I do not fall into sin, because he gives me the strength. And it is him, because I have tried many times on my own and it was only once I asked God that it was given to me. He blesses me constantly. Once I went to the dentist and he told me I had a cavity, and was going to have to get it drilled, or filled, whatever they do to cavities. I was not happy, and though I did not ask God, when I went back they said it was gone, I had thought they just made some kind of mistake but then I realized it must have been God watching over me, he knew how much I did not want to have a cavity filled, I never have and I horribly hate getting needles in my mouth, worst feeling.

How do I know it was God and not just coincidences, or people? That is what is called faith. I don't need to prove it, I know, and that is all that matters. God works through people and events. If I had not received the scholorhship to go to this college I would never have found a church here that brought me back to God, turned me from a being a sinner with no hope of Heaven with God, to a saved man, with a hope in eternity with Jesus. That is how I know he works. Don't believe it, but it is my testimony, I am a witness, like in a court case, sometimes criminals get put in jail just on the testimony of eyewitnesses. And I am that eyewitness of the fact that God is real and he works in life. But the wicked and those who don't believe should not expect to receive anything from the LORD. Though if they earnestly seek repentence and believe he will give all. Still amazes me how you all can scorn a God who came to earth as a man to give his life as a ransom for many, for each and every one of you. Don't wait to understand everything God has done, just seek him, you will be blessed. And many will be blessed through you. Then in Heaven we can laugh about these days. O, if only you would believe and be saved!

God takes care of your cavities and school bills, but lets babies, Christian babies, sicken and die in their impoverished mother's arms. As the Christian mother begs and prays and pleads with god. I saw this happen myself, and had to comfort that mother.

So which makes more sense? #1 god in his mysterious wonderfulness thinks that you, jakec47, deserve food and money and dental care but that Christian baby has to die, because that baby dying is part of god's wonderful plan. #2 there is no god and stuff just happens, some good and some bad. #3 god does all the good things and this other guy Satan does the bad things, although god is really in charge.

If you pick #1 you worship an evil god who picks winners and losers like a Nazi commandant at Auschwitz-- Jews into the ovens, cute young gypsy women into my quarters, criminals into the work camp. Money from god to jakec47, painful death from god to the poor Christian woman's little baby.

If you pick #3 you worship a very weak, irresponsible god whose morals are worse than a mafia boss who lets his "enforcer" do all the dirty work so his hands stay clean. Money from god to jakec47, painful death from Satan to the poor Christian woman's little baby. Thumbs up from god to Satan.

You are a fool. You can not take one verse out of context and say, oh i asked for a girl and didn't get one. Completely ridiculous statement. First of all, you don't even believe in Jesus so you will not get anything from him if you ask. He is refering to those who believe in him. James 4:3 says, "When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." And here he is also talking to Christians.

If you truly believed you would receive what you ask for, but you would not ask for a naked girl. For example, I ask God for things, and I get them. Because you must ask according to his will. Not yours.

Then hurry the hell up and ask for world peace and good will towards men. Or at least stop some children from being raped in the Congo. Maybe a little extra food to alleviate some of the people starving in rural China?

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When I was deciding which college to go to he gave to me a half-tuition scholorship. And grants and other scholorships so I didn't have to pay the tuition at all.

I wonder who the unlucky (or unbelieving) heathen got screwed out of a scholarship. Or is it possible that your merit and a little luck got you that scholarship?

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I ask him to supply my daily needs, and days when my paycheck is not enough to cover all my bills, somehow, I have enough. People give me food, I don't ask.

Good thing you don't need to f**king thank the kind people who gave you the f**king food. You're coming off as a bit of an ungrateful cuss.

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God impresses on them that I need food.

Because good and kind people do not exist in your worldview.

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I ask God for understanding on the Bible, and sure enough a verse that I have difficulty understanding immediately I understand it. I ask him for the strength to resist temptations, and again sure enough whenever I am tempted I do not fall into sin, because he gives me the strength. And it is him, because I have tried many times on my own and it was only once I asked God that it was given to me. He blesses me constantly. Once I went to the dentist and he told me I had a cavity, and was going to have to get it drilled, or filled, whatever they do to cavities. I was not happy, and though I did not ask God, when I went back they said it was gone, I had thought they just made some kind of mistake but then I realized it must have been God watching over me, he knew how much I did not want to have a cavity filled, I never have and I horribly hate getting needles in my mouth, worst feeling.

How do I know it was God and not just coincidences, or people? That is what is called faith. I don't need to prove it, I know, and that is all that matters.

I wonder if you'd give a definition of 'faith'. It can be a squishy word, so before I comment on this I'll need a more specific definition of what you mean by that.

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God works through people and events. If I had not received the scholorhship to go to this college I would never have found a church here that brought me back to God, turned me from a being a sinner with no hope of Heaven with God, to a saved man, with a hope in eternity with Jesus. That is how I know he works. Don't believe it, but it is my testimony, I am a witness, like in a court case, sometimes criminals get put in jail just on the testimony of eyewitnesses. And I am that eyewitness of the fact that God is real and he works in life. But the wicked and those who don't believe should not expect to receive anything from the LORD. Though if they earnestly seek repentence and believe he will give all. Still amazes me how you all can scorn a God who came to earth as a man to give his life as a ransom for many, for each and every one of you. Don't wait to understand everything God has done, just seek him, you will be blessed. And many will be blessed through you. Then in Heaven we can laugh about these days. O, if only you would believe and be saved!

Personally, I'm not scorning a god. I simply do not believe that such a being exists. If I'm scorning anyone, it's the people who devalue the efforts of human kindness and hard work to make the world a better place.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Jakec47: according to your 'lord', you are now in danger of the 'hell fire.' Fuck off, retard. Also, your statements are completely a waste of my time and effort tonight reading your crap. God 'gives you things?' Bullshit. People give you things. Yes, your dentist made a mistake. Probably was just trying to make a quick buck off of you by saying you had a cavity and then changed his mind. And what grants you the wonderful fortune of being so blessed by your god that he gives you everything but ignores even the wishes of priests and nuns for what they are trying to accomplish.

How about all those unfortunate people that can't afford to go to college, or have massive student loans, or can't afford their healthcare, or are starving to death as infants, or are being tortured to death. None of their prayers are answered, and yet you say your meager prayers are, and they are for selfish reasons. God must prefer you over everyone else on earth, apparently. Yes, you are delusional. Yes, it is merely all a coincidence. People gave you things, and you gained things for yourself. Prayer had nothing to do with it. Let me ask you this - since you seem to have so much presence with your 'LORD', why don't you ask him to do things for other people instead of for yourself, you selfish fucker.

This is, in fact, the difference between me and most other people - I come along saying 'what can I do for you?', 'how can I help you?', 'how can I be of better service to people?', 'how can I save lives?', while you look at everybody, including your god, and say 'what can you do for me?', 'how can you benefit me?', 'what's in it for me?'. 'how can I use you?'...

Do you see what I'm getting at? The fact that you called someone like me a fool, and called yourself righteous for inwardly activity tells me that you are a complete fucking bastard. Fuck you, I will never lift a finger against satan in your defense. it is exactly people like you that make me want to say to hell with mankind, give up, and call you all 'fucked'. Because without people like me - that's exactly what you insane bastards are - fucked. Again, fuck off. Do something for someone else for once, or get your fucking prejudice god to do something for someone besides you. If he listens to you then, only then will you have any form of validity in your selfish statements. Fucker...

You: Keep praying to your god for your own sakeMe: I'm going to actually go out and do something about everyone else's problems, and potentially solve my own in the process. YOU FOOL

« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 11:11:30 PM by jeremy0 »

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

I was not happy, and though I did not ask God, when I went back they said it was gone, I had thought they just made some kind of mistake but then I realized it must have been God watching over me, he knew how much I did not want to have a cavity filled, I never have and I horribly hate getting needles in my mouth, worst feeling.

There are dentists who lie. Usually they are above scrutiny, but occasionally, consumer detectives go to numerous dentists and see what they recommend. Usually, they come back with quite large differences of opinion on how bad their mouth is. I would ask God why he sent you to a lying dentist.

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I don't need to prove it, I know, and that is all that matters.

Around here, you do need to prove it. I show you why:

Yesterday, I saw a UFO. The aliens got out of the ship, and told me I was a great guy. Not just any great guy, but I'm apparently greater than any of you lot. They also told me that the Bible was a lie, and they took me back in a time machine and showed me that the original Jesus didn't do any miracles.

Mark 16[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When I was deciding which college to go to he gave to me a half-tuition scholorship. And grants and other scholorships so I didn't have to pay the tuition at all.

How exciting! Di the money magically appear in your bank account? Or were there people involved in allocating pre-existing money to you?

If there were people involved, does this mean that god overrode their will in order for the garnts to go to you? Are you okay with your god forcing people to do things for you? Because if you are that sounds like JUST as selfish as desire on your part as Jeremy's (humorous) wish for a girl.

But why is it okay for your god to override free will to get you some money, but NOT okay for him to override free will and make people believe in and follow him? Where is the moral difference? Especially when his refusal to do the latter will result in people being denied salvation - which is surely more important than you getting a couple hundred pounds that you neither earned nor deserved.

And as has been said before - what do you say to the more deserving candidate who missed out on the grants (and possibly their only chance at college) because your god decided you were such a special little snowflake?

Take the beam out of your own eye before you castigate Jeremey for the mote in his.

You are a fool. You can not take one verse out of context and say, oh i asked for a girl and didn't get one. Completely ridiculous statement. First of all, you don't even believe in Jesus so you will not get anything from him if you ask. He is refering to those who believe in him. James 4:3 says, "When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." And here he is also talking to Christians.

Tsk. God is going to be angry at you (Matthew 5). The verse is not taken out of context, Jake. That’s a common excuse by Christians, that somehow they and only they know the “right” context. Your supposed savior said that any thing asked in his name would be answered quickly and positively. There is no caveat that requests for naked girls would be exempt. At best, a Christian can say is that prayers *might* be dependent on what their god really wants to have happen and that destroys the common Christian argument for free will and for the efficacy of prayer, the last in that prayer is totally worthless in getting anything to happen, it will happen if the god wants it to without prayer at all.

The verse from James is the usual excuse used by Christians when something doesn’t happen and was prayed for. It’s a lovely excuse, accusing the one praying of not being “sincere”, just like we watch Christians do constantly. There’s always an excuse when prayer fails as it always does. I find it disgusting when a man who obviously lives in a first world country is so arrogant and sure that a woman in Africa who prays for her child not to starve is praying with the “wrong motives” and thus her child dies horribly.

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If you truly believed you would receive what you ask for, but you would not ask for a naked girl. For example, I ask God for things, and I get them. Because you must ask according to his will. Not yours.

That’s called self-editing, Jake. Christians claim that they ask for things and get them. And have to depend on coincidence (I asked God to have it rain and 41 and a half days later it did when physics allowed for it, Praise God! ) and very hard and human work to actually get such things (I asked god to heal me and after 30 years of research and development and my doctor going to medical school and the machine for gamma knives being invented and made, this type of cancer is beatable, praise god! ). We see no magical appearance of money or healing or anything that Christians lie about.

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When I was deciding which college to go to he gave to me a half-tuition scholorship. And grants and other scholorships so I didn't have to pay the tuition at all.

golly and you didn’t apply for such a scholarship at all? No one put your name in? Such lies, Jake, it’s sad.

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I ask him to supply my daily needs, and days when my paycheck is not enough to cover all my bills, somehow, I have enough. People give me food, I don't ask. God impresses on them that I need food.

Aw, such a special snowflake! So who are these people who give you food, Jake? And golly, you do have a job so it’s not your god at all that provides all of your needs. I do love how your god controls people so you get food given to you. I guess it’s just a shame that your god doesn’t do this for starving children in other countries. They aren’t as special and ever so wonderful as Jake.

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I ask God for understanding on the Bible, and sure enough a verse that I have difficulty understanding immediately I understand it.

and immediately you put your own interpretation on it, this must be what God “really” meant. Yep, just like every other Christian.

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I ask him for the strength to resist temptations, and again sure enough whenever I am tempted I do not fall into sin, because he gives me the strength. And it is him, because I have tried many times on my own and it was only once I asked God that it was given to me. He blesses me constantly. Once I went to the dentist and he told me I had a cavity, and was going to have to get it drilled, or filled, whatever they do to cavities. I was not happy, and though I did not ask God, when I went back they said it was gone, I had thought they just made some kind of mistake but then I realized it must have been God watching over me, he knew how much I did not want to have a cavity filled, I never have and I horribly hate getting needles in my mouth, worst feeling.

And again, God is at Jake’s beck and call. So important to god that Jake is, god has no time to help other people who also ask for strength, for help, etc. And more baseless claims about how you were healed! So, Jake where are your dental x-rays, who was your dentist so your claims can be shown to be true? And golly, poor thing didn’t want a cavity filled. I guess that’s so more important than keeping a child from having a cleft palate.

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How do I know it was God and not just coincidences, or people? That is what is called faith. I don't need to prove it, I know, and that is all that matters. God works through people and events. If I had not received the scholorhship to go to this college I would never have found a church here that brought me back to God, turned me from a being a sinner with no hope of Heaven with God, to a saved man, with a hope in eternity with Jesus. That is how I know he works.

and again, that’s what all theists of al stripes say and then go and say that the claims of theist of other than their type are lying.

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Don't believe it, but it is my testimony, I am a witness, like in a court case, sometimes criminals get put in jail just on the testimony of eyewitnesses. And I am that eyewitness of the fact that God is real and he works in life

No, you are not. You are a man who is lying and has been shown to be lying.

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But the wicked and those who don't believe should not expect to receive anything from the LORD.

And more nonsense. I was a Christian, Jake and prayed not to lose my faith. By your claims I should not be an atheist now. So your claims are demonstrably wrong.

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Though if they earnestly seek repentence and believe he will give all. Still amazes me how you all can scorn a God who came to earth as a man to give his life as a ransom for many, for each and every one of you.

And the usual excuse that one has to be “earnest” aka “sincere” which is again shown to be only an excuse on your part. And golly Jake, it still amazes Hamid the Muslim how you can all scorn a god who gave his word to Mohammed and gives life to all living things. It amazes Pravir that you reject Vishnu and Krishna. But since no religion has any evidence to support the claism of its believers, I find that all of you are liars and deluded. I’ve been asking for evidence for your claims, Jake, to show me that the bible is valid and your claims are true, but you have just as much evidence as any other religion. There’s no reason to think that you are the only right one at all.

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Don't wait to understand everything God has done, just seek him, you will be blessed. And many will be blessed through you. Then in Heaven we can laugh about these days. O, if only you would believe and be saved!

and more baseless claims. I have sought your god, I have been a Christian. Your magic spell techniques have failed, just like every other theist who tells us he has the real true way for getting his god’s attention.

Jesus did not lie, and I have not lied or showed my ignorance, you have simply shown yours.

I’m waiting for you to show me how I showed my ignorance. I want facts to support your claims, Jake. Show me your objective evidence that I’m wrong, and not your baseless opinion that I am. I’m also waiting for you to show me how JC didn’t lie. I showed how he did by citing verses. I expect you to do the same, and not just stomp your feet and sulk “no he didn’t”.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

.....I went to the dentist and he told me I had a cavity, and was going to have to get it drilled, or filled, whatever they do to cavities. I was not happy, and though I did not ask God, when I went back they said it was gone, I had thought they just made some kind of mistake but then I realized it must have been God watching over me, he knew how much I did not want to have a cavity filled, I never have and I horribly hate getting needles in my mouth, worst feeling.

And again, God is at Jake’s beck and call. So important to god that Jake is, god has no time to help other people who also ask for strength, for help, etc. And more baseless claims about how you were healed! So, Jake where are your dental x-rays, who was your dentist so your claims can be shown to be true? And golly, poor thing didn’t want a cavity filled. I guess that’s so more important than keeping a child from having a cleft palate.

Oh my yes - I missed this bit. So to save poor Jake from a little inconvenience, Yahweh heals his tooth - something that in the Western world costs a pittance and a little bit of time.

Next time I get one of those envelopes through the door asking for money to do cataract operations or (as Velkyn mentioned) cleft-palate surgery in the third world, I won't put money in, I'll just send them a note telling them that god healed Jake without even being asked, so stop asking - they're the way they are because of Yahweh's plan, and if he WANTED them better he'd MAKE them better.

Far be it from me to interfere in the way Yahweh wants the world to be. I'm amazed he didn't strike Jake's dentist down for daring to "play god" and fill a cavity that was there (or not) at god's will.....

Well first of all I never God is all-powerful and omniscient. Which means he can do things for me and still do things for others. And I am not asking for selfish things, I am living my life and I ask God for things I need. Its not like I don't ask for other things, and you say I should pray for world peace, but I don't have to pray that, God has already promised a world of peace, it is when this earth will pass away, the new earth will be the way God originally intended it to be. No pain, or sorrow, no death. God doesn't enjoy what has happened to this world, but kids starving in other countries are because of men's hearts of stone not because God wills it. You ask that God save these people, just wait, he has been patient until all those living will have a chance to hear the good news of Jesus and be saved, then he will return and bring about world peace. But it will never be brought about any other way, God can't just make the world better, because he gives free will and if people don't want to give to the poor then they aren't forced to. Once everyone has had the opportunity to accept Jesus then the end will come.

...God has already promised a world of peace, it is when this earth will pass away, the new earth will be the way God originally intended it to be. No pain, or sorrow, no death.

I wanted a red bike. So I went down to the store and bought a blue bike. I actually really hate the color blue; it makes me all sorts of sad and miserable. I wanted to buy a red bike, but I bought the blue bike. The red bike was there, but I bought a blue bike. The red bike would have been good. The blue bike makes me sad. I don't like the blue bike. I really wish I didn't have this blue bike. I wanted a red bike. Because I wanted a red bike, I went to the store and bought a blue bike. I don't like the blue bike.

I could have bought the red bike, but I bought the blue bike. I don't want to be sad, and the blue bike makes me sad. I really wanted a red bike. When I went to the store, I could have purchased either a red bike or a blue bike. I wanted a red bike. So I bought a blue bike. And now I'm sad.

Jakec47, can you think of anything I could have done in that situation that would not result in me being sad?

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

blah blah blah, Jesus, bla bla bla... Well, he gives me things i need, because i need them. But other people need things too. He doesn't give them those things they need. But it is based on free will, so I get what I need because god wills me to have what I need. But not others. They haven't had a chance to believe in him. So he ignores those folks. But he gives me what I need, so I'm happy. It's good that I'm happy, because god loves me. He doesn't love other people, but he's all-knowing. He knows what I need. He knows what others need. He only gives things to me, and says 'to hell with the others'. Me happy..

This is how you sound, jakec..

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"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger.""If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me. Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

...and you say I should pray for world peace, but I don't have to pray that, God has already promised a world of peace, it is when this earth will pass away, the new earth will be the way God originally intended it to be.

How, um, very convenient: A totally unfalsifiable claim about some alleged future world. Of what use is your faith, Jake, if it doesn't inspire you to get down and dirty and fix real-world problems? From where I'm sitting, it just looks like a grab-bag of sad excuses for not engaging with the messy parts of reality, on the pretext that God Will Deal With It Later.

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You ask that God save these people, just wait, he has been patient until all those living will have a chance to hear the good news of Jesus and be saved, then he will return and bring about world peace. But it will never be brought about any other way, God can't just make the world better, because he gives free will and if people don't want to give to the poor then they aren't forced to. Once everyone has had the opportunity to accept Jesus then the end will come.

So, Jake, what if there will always be at least one person on Earth who never gets this "opportunity"? I believe this to be the case, and I therefore think that the probability of Jesus returning and bringing about world peace is infinitesimally low.

God doesn't enjoy what has happened to this world, but kids starving in other countries are because of men's hearts of stone not because God wills it.

Utter nonsense.

God healed your tooth, without even being asked, because he willed it. And he answered your prayers for things you "needed" - like a college grant - which must, again, be because he willed it.

And yet there are still starving children in the world, and fear, and disease, and terror. So all of that must similarly be because your god wills it.

You've been quite explicit in what you have said about god working in your life. You've made it quite clear that he WILL intervene directly in the world, to have a measurable and unambiguous effect, as and when he wants to.

And yet....he will NOT intervene to help the starving children. So what is defferent, Jake? Why are you so scared to join the dots between god healing your teeth, and god NOT helping those poor kids in Africa?

Well first of all I never God is all-powerful and omniscient. Which means he can do things for me and still do things for others.

It’s so nice to see again a Christian depowering their god to excuse its impotence. Not much of a god then.

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And I am not asking for selfish things, I am living my life and I ask God for things I need.

Really? Seems that your whining about a cavity is pretty damn selfish. But say it isn’t selfish, then the problem is that others do exactly as you do and they are ignored by your god evidently, if your god exists at all.

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Its not like I don't ask for other things, and you say I should pray for world peace, but I don't have to pray that, God has already promised a world of peace, it is when this earth will pass away, the new earth will be the way God originally intended it to be.

Yep, good luck with that little lie. Christians constantly are saying this will happen “real soon now” for the last 2000+ years.

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No pain, or sorrow, no death. God doesn't enjoy what has happened to this world, but kids starving in other countries are because of men's hearts of stone not because God wills it.

You ask that God save these people, just wait, he has been patient until all those living will have a chance to hear the good news of Jesus and be saved, then he will return and bring about world peace.

And everyone has heard about this nonsense of yours by now. If not yet, what’s keeping your god from allowing them to hear about it? Why no magical voices from the heavens in every language telling about this god? What’s your next excuse when your god doesn’t show up?

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But it will never be brought about any other way, God can't just make the world better, because he gives free will and if people don't want to give to the poor then they aren't forced to. Once everyone has had the opportunity to accept Jesus then the end will come.

Oh I love this part. More Christian attempts to claim their god gives free will and still no evidence of this at all. It’s hilarious. You want to claim that God will only return after everyone hears about this god, but then try to claim that this god won’t lift a finger to let everyone know about it. A wonderful contradiction here, dear Jake. It's also great when your own bible shows that your claims about free will are simply lies made up to excuse your imagianry friend.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Well first of all I never God is all-powerful and omniscient. Which means he can do things for me and still do things for others. And I am not asking for selfish things, I am living my life and I ask God for things I need. Its not like I don't ask for other things, and you say I should pray for world peace, but I don't have to pray that, God has already promised a world of peace, it is when this earth will pass away, the new earth will be the way God originally intended it to be. No pain, or sorrow, no death. God doesn't enjoy what has happened to this world, but kids starving in other countries are because of men's hearts of stone not because God wills it. You ask that God save these people, just wait, he has been patient until all those living will have a chance to hear the good news of Jesus and be saved, then he will return and bring about world peace. But it will never be brought about any other way, God can't just make the world better, because he gives free will and if people don't want to give to the poor then they aren't forced to. Once everyone has had the opportunity to accept Jesus then the end will come.

JESUS CHRIST. I think I'd prefer a room full of Dog Fart to this.

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..but I don't have to pray that, God has already promised a world of peace,

There is an Abbey full of nuns in Australia, who get up at 4am every morning and pray for world peace. They obviously need help.

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Once everyone has had the opportunity to accept Jesus then the end will come.

I think everyone has had the opportunity (except those being born, now.. and now... and now), and they chose Islam, or dog fart. I think your God should move things along, like he promised 1900 years ago.

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God can't just make the world better, because he gives free will

I'm pretty certain that if God comes along and removes malaria, HIV, herpes, flu, cancer, cerebral palsy, there will not be huge cries from the audience that he is depriving us of our free will. The cesspit we live in, has got nothing to do with free-will. We can work to struggle against what God has dumped us in, but we sure need some better weapons against Christians besides dog fart.

Can you please clarify and give some context as to what the lie is and who told it?

why of course, Screwtape. Jake is the liar and the lie is that his god promised a world of peace and that world would come magically when this world goes away. Since we know that this has not happened, and will not happen since there is no evidence for a god at all, and that no Christian can agree on if or whether this happens, the claim that it will is untrue and delusional.

Bless you atheists for conversing with this outlandish individual. He must be one of god's favorites to be granted so many things. I'll provide some statements by him.

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For example, I ask God for things, and I get them. Because you must ask according to his will. Not yours.

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I ask God for understanding on the Bible, and sure enough a verse that I have difficulty understanding immediately I understand it.

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He blesses me constantly. Once I went to the dentist and he told me I had a cavity, and was going to have to get it drilled, or filled, whatever they do to cavities. I was not happy, and though I did not ask God, when I went back they said it was gone, I had thought they just made some kind of mistake but then I realized it must have been God watching over me, he knew how much I did not want to have a cavity filled, I never have and I horribly hate getting needles in my mouth, worst feeling.

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Well first of all I never God is all-powerful and omniscient. Which means he can do things for me and still do things for others. And I am not asking for selfish things, I am living my life and I ask God for things I need. Its not like I don't ask for other things, and you say I should pray for world peace, but I don't have to pray that, God has already promised a world of peace, it is when this earth will pass away, the new earth will be the way God originally intended it to be. No pain, or sorrow, no death. God doesn't enjoy what has happened to this world, but kids starving in other countries are because of men's hearts of stone not because God wills it

The truth is; My Stomach develops turbulence when I read his stuff and I am amazed that anyone can continue talking with him. You folks have bitch slapped all his reasoning and he goes on like a god zombie.

why of course, Screwtape. Jake is the liar and the lie is that his god promised a world of peace and that world would come magically when this world goes away. Since we know that this has not happened, and will not happen since there is no evidence for a god at all, and that no Christian can agree on if or whether this happens, the claim that it will is untrue and delusional.

That does not make jakec47 a liar. Just because he says something that is untrue does not make it a lie. Unless he is trying to deceive you, and I do not see where he is, it is unfair to call him that.

Please don't call people liars unless they are actually lying. It is inflamatory and does not help the conversation.

blah blah blah, Jesus, bla bla bla... Well, he gives me things i need, because i need them. But other people need things too. He doesn't give them those things they need. But it is based on free will, so I get what I need because god wills me to have what I need. But not others. They haven't had a chance to believe in him. So he ignores those folks. But he gives me what I need, so I'm happy. It's good that I'm happy, because god loves me. He doesn't love other people, but he's all-knowing. He knows what I need. He knows what others need. He only gives things to me, and says 'to hell with the others'. Me happy..

This is how you sound, jakec..

He gives them things they need. And He doesn't ignore anyone. And He does love other people. What would you rather him give, some food, so they can be happy for a short while, they will still die and go to hell, so Jesus to show how much he loved everyone of us, died so that we can have all our needs fulfilled and so that we can live and not die. "For God so loved the world (this means you) that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. He paid the price that each of us had to pay, but he took it and paid it himself. That is eternal life is worth more than anything in this life. He gave us the greatest thing, and it was a gift.

How, um, very convenient: A totally unfalsifiable claim about some alleged future world. Of what use is your faith, Jake, if it doesn't inspire you to get down and dirty and fix real-world problems? From where I'm sitting, it just looks like a grab-bag of sad excuses for not engaging with the messy parts of reality, on the pretext that God Will Deal With It Later.

You think I don't do anything to make the world better. I do. I'm in college to. I have no interest in my own life, only that I can be enough for other people. I could go into detail on how I help but I don't like to talk about it because I will sound like I'm bragging.

God healed your tooth, without even being asked, because he willed it. And he answered your prayers for things you "needed" - like a college grant - which must, again, be because he willed it.

And yet there are still starving children in the world, and fear, and disease, and terror. So all of that must similarly be because your god wills it.

You've been quite explicit in what you have said about god working in your life. You've made it quite clear that he WILL intervene directly in the world, to have a measurable and unambiguous effect, as and when he wants to.

And yet....he will NOT intervene to help the starving children. So what is defferent, Jake? Why are you so scared to join the dots between god healing your teeth, and god NOT helping those poor kids in Africa?

God helps these children all the time. Haven't you ever heard of the various organizations who help them. All the missionaries out there. Lets look at some:"Total giving to charitable organizations increased to $306 billion in 2007, up 3.9 percent from 2006 (when adjusted for inflation). That accounted for 2.2 percent of U.S. domestic product." (Compassion International).

Compassion International is a great organization who goes out in Jesus' name to help starving kids.

"Today, Compassion helps more than 1.2 million children in 26 countries" (Compassion.com).

That money comes from giving, people giving. When people don't donate money to these people they cannot help others.

As far as Christian missionaries:In the unevangelized world, there are 20,500 full-time Christian workers and 10,200 foreign missionaries.

In the evangelized non-Christian world, there are 1.31 million full-time Christian workers. 103,000 foreign missionaries(24.5%) , 5,000 being in 31 restricted-countries.

In the Christian world, there are 306,000 foreign missionaries to other Christian lands. 4,000 in restricted-access countries. Also in the Christian world, 4.19 million full-time Christian workers (95%) work within the Christian world.

Missionaries and religious charities are one of the best arguments against an all-knowing, all-caring god. Didn't god know those hungry, sick people were there before the missionaries showed up? Why did the people have to wait for missionaries if god knew and had the power to help? And why don't people ever find out about a particular religion without the intervention of human beings who already believe in it?