This movie was ridiculously overstuffed but somehow I didn't feel drained or annoyed. Everyone has some kind of meaningful role. It never felt like "oh yeah I'm in this too". It all basically made sense within the usual extent of suspension of disbelief, which is saying something, since if you think about it the basic conceit behind the plot is ridiculous. It's quite a snap after the earthly politics of Civil War and Black Panther. Eh, it's good fun. Action, jokes, sadness

Thanos's intention is to

Spoiler:

hold a cull to prevent hardship due to scarce resources

but he is so powerful that you wonder why he doesn't just directly create more resources...

The stakes in Marvel are usually kept low by the fact that everything has a fix.

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Bucky gets a new arm,Thor a new eye, Rhodes new legs.

On the other hand this is counteracted by

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deaths, serious deaths. But even there, at some point I stopped "believing" the deaths. They ain't going to kill Spiderman and Black Panther for real: they are working on their sequels already, so I know they'll undo this somehow.

I don't recall Thanos' intention being spoiled by the official trailers, but I've seen it pretty much spelled out on various promotional clips, both online and on television.

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To be honest, I find it kind of cheesy the way they attempted to make him somehow more sympathetic via the whole "greater good" aspect of his plan. In the original story line, his motivation is simply that he's in love with Death and wants to impress her. Does there really need to be moral ambiguity around a character who wants to murder half the universe? Why can't he just be a villain?

Goin' sunday. At a minimum, I expect it to be a glorious spectacle, as most MCU films have been. If it's even middling decent, I'll watch it a coupla times, because hey, Moviepass, and not a whole lot else is releasing until Deadpool 2.

cphite wrote:I don't recall Thanos' intention being spoiled by the official trailers, but I've seen it pretty much spelled out on various promotional clips, both online and on television.

Spoiler:

To be honest, I find it kind of cheesy the way they attempted to make him somehow more sympathetic via the whole "greater good" aspect of his plan. In the original story line, his motivation is simply that he's in love with Death and wants to impress her. Does there really need to be moral ambiguity around a character who wants to murder half the universe? Why can't he just be a villain?

I think notion of personified

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Death

would be too kooky and abstract even for the MCU. I didn't mind the changes they made.

I'm going to go early and make some predictions for Avengers Four: Electric Boogolor.

The title will be Avengers:

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Endgame

.

The situation will be that

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half of the heroes have been swept away to a separate parallel universe. eg Spider-man, Mantis and Dr Strange etc find themselves still on the planet Titan, but without Tony. Captain Marvel has to try to reconnect the two universes.

Just saw it, didn't expect too much, enjoyed it. Much like Avengers 1, little of what happens makes much logical sense if you really think about it but it is fast paced, exciting and there's plenty of cool colorful fight scenes. The emotional scenes were a bit of a mixed bags- some landed ok but others were either rushed or unearned. I guess that's the best we can really hope for with a movie with such a big cast that needs to tie so many things together and introduce a whole new villain and conflict that had only been hinted at before.

About the ending:

Spoiler:

After a brief discussion when we left the cinema, my friends and I decided this is all going according to Strange's plan. He said there's only one way they win so I assume this is their way to do it. Obviously they will have to somehow get the stones back and use the time stone to reverse what happened but I am not even sure who of the remaining characters can use it.

Did anyone else think Thanos' glove looked damaged after he wiped the Universe? I wonder if it'll be broken or malfunctioning now which is why they stand a chance in a fight. Hulk certainly has a score to settle with a stoneless Thanos.

About the after credits scene:

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Can someone explain what it revealed? They focused on that symbol on the sort-of-but-not-really-a-pager but I have no clue what it was supposed to mean.

The thing is, I haven’t seen Age of Ultron — so some stuff kind of confused me. It was pretty decent though.

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I didn’t think that they needed to try and humanize Theanos as much as they tried to. Frankly, I think the ending is just sequel baiting... It just seems like a way to try and get people to show up to all of the rest of the marvel movies and see the resolution.

Overall, it was a decent movie though. It was very typical for a marvel movie though.

Just came back from it. Was all right? More-or-less what I expected. I wasn't very happy with the ending.

Spoiler:

Much like other people here, it seems obvious this is Strange's plan. Especially after he made such a big deal of sacrificing Tony and/or Spider Man to save the stone. Also as soon as they "killed" Black Panther it was obvious all these deaths mean nothing and everyone (who died at the end at least - I doubt Gamora will come back, and probably neither will Loki) would come back. I kind of hated that. You make this big emotional deal out of something that will OBVIOUSLY mean nothing in the end. When Steve Rogers dies in Avengers 4, maybe that will be meaningful? It's hard for me to take these movies very seriously.

Also Thanos's plan makes no sense - in 300 years he'll just come around and kill half the people again?

My guess is, since I understand Captain Marvel occurs in the 90s, that she's be part of the time travel thing that will reverse all of this, and possibly Samuel Jackson's pager can send signals through time.

There’s a Captain Marvel? Admittedly, I know nothing about the comics, and haven’t even seen all the movies, so I guess that’s not a huge surprise. I also think the deaths didn’t feel meaningful because of how it’s clearly part of Dr. Strange’s plan, and you know they’re not going to do stuff like kill the Black Panther/Spider-Man franchises right away.

There’s a Captain Marvel? Admittedly, I know nothing about the comics, and haven’t even seen all the movies, so I guess that’s not a huge surprise. I also think the deaths didn’t feel meaningful because of how it’s clearly part of Dr. Strange’s plan, and you know they’re not going to do stuff like kill the Black Panther/Spider-Man franchises right away.

Spoiler:

Captain Marvel is basically the most powerful hero in the Marvel universe.

Captain Marvel is basically the most powerful hero in the Marvel universe.

Spoiler:

Nah not even close. If they put her in at full power as Captain Marvel (not as Binary when she had a pretty big boost) she's probably the same power level as movie Thor. Comic wise even with her cosmic boost as Binary she isn't quite able to stand up to comic Thor.

Captain Marvel is basically the most powerful hero in the Marvel universe.

Spoiler:

Nah not even close. If they put her in at full power as Captain Marvel (not as Binary when she had a pretty big boost) she's probably the same power level as movie Thor. Comic wise even with her cosmic boost as Binary she isn't quite able to stand up to comic Thor.

Spoiler:

I'll be honest I haven't read much of her. I understood her to be similar to Superman in terms of power levels, but I could be wrong, and of course you're right - power levels conveniently change to serve the plot.

There are interviews talking about how she'll be the most powerful hero introduced to the movie universe, so presumably stronger than Thor/Hul in this incarnation.

I'll be honest I haven't read much of her. I understood her to be similar to Superman in terms of power levels, but I could be wrong, and of course you're right - power levels conveniently change to serve the plot.

There are interviews talking about how she'll be the most powerful hero introduced to the movie universe, so presumably stronger than Thor/Hul in this incarnation.

Spoiler:

Fair enough. They do play pretty fast and loose with power levels in the movies. There are orders of magnitude difference in strengths between Thor and Spiderman, and then the same for Spiderman and Cap, but in the movies they all hit similarly (i.e., the amount the plot needs them to).

I agree that the motivation behind Thanos's plan was a bit silly. That aside, as a friend on Facebook pointed out, the narrative has a standard three-act structure if you see it as a movie about him rather than about everyoneelseatonce, which is apparently how some critics watched it. I think that's why it didn't feel like the same "hey I'm in it too" sort of thing other massive ensemble casts sometimes have.

Regarding the ending:

Spoiler:

I agree that it didn't have nearly the emotional punch they seemed to be going for, since Dr. Strange so heavily foreshadowed having some further plan.

If they'd wanted some sense of suspense, they should have at least killed off the original Avengers team (several of whom are known to be finished or nearly finished with the MCU), instead of killing off a bunch of characters with already-scheduled sequels and leaving all the first Avengers standing.

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.---If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

gmalivuk wrote:I agree that the motivation behind Thanos's plan was a bit silly, but that aside, as a friend on Facebook pointed out, the narrative has a standard three act structure if you see it as a movie about him rather than about everyoneelseatonce which is apparently how some critics watched it.

Solid point there. He does get the biggest screen time share.

A few other things occurred to me:

If you've seen the trailers, it is no spoiler to tell you that Rhodes is up and about using some kind of device. I know this is a wonderful universe not meant to be realistic and also they had plenty to do already in this movie but honestly I felt that it would be good to show him have some kind of impediment to overcome. The total non-event of his recovery from paralysis seems like, I dunno, a slap in the face to disabled members of the audience? There are

They recast

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Red Skull

.

Spoiler:

Hugo Weaving

had previously said that he was finished with that kind of movie and that although he was contractually obligated to do it if they asked him too, he hoped they wouldn't ask. I guess it doesn't matter much. But I love

gmalivuk wrote:↶I agree that the motivation behind Thanos's plan was a bit silly. That aside, as a friend on Facebook pointed out, the narrative has a standard three-act structure if you see it as a movie about him rather than about everyoneelseatonce, which is apparently how some critics watched it. I think that's why it didn't feel like the same "hey I'm in it too" sort of thing other massive ensemble casts sometimes have.

I thought that the ending of Infinity War opens up some interesting possibilities that will almost certainly not be explored.

Spoiler:

Basically my thoughts are all variations on the theme of "Lots of the main heroes are gone, so they could bring someone in to fill the gaps", and there are plenty of examples in the various Marvel universes:

1. Dark Avengers - a bunch of villains pose as the real Avengers, taking a very "whatever means necessary" attitude and possibly furthering the goals of the person in charge (which was Norman Osbourne in the comics, but there are probably alternative options for the MCU).

2. Thunderbolts - similarly, several villains take on superhero personas, some of whom decide to become proper heroes instead of just doing it for show. This is a little difficult since the concept relies on having some on-going villains who have a shot at redemption, and MCU has had the habit of killing off their villains at the end of every film.

3. Shuri as Black Panther (she can wear the suit but they'll have to do something about the heart-shaped herb); or Miles Morales as Spider-Man (because they modeled their Nick Fury after the Ultimate version, why not him?).

Ultimately, though, I agree that there will either be a full reset or some group of the original Avengers will sacrifice themselves to restore everything (which would then give them one last hurrah before all the contracts run out), so most of these are no-goes.

but he is so powerful that you wonder why he doesn't just directly create more resources...

Well...

Spoiler:

It's not that kind of power. Or at least, it isn't until he gets all the infinity stones, maybe. Generally, he's been really good at raising armies, punching things, and executing people. He has a pattern. He plays to pattern even when he doesn't strictly need to kill someone. Yeah, maybe his beliefs started him down this path, but he is clearly unwilling to re-examine them. I mean, he is definitely an evil villain, even if he does have a historical reason for how he got here.

I agree that Strange's plan will foreshadow how they beat him. Which means it centers on Tony. After all, Strange's plan set things up so they were able to trade for Tony's life. That's the thing he accomplished, so it has to include the way to defeat him.

Thanos's glove is DEFINITELY damaged. Heavily so.

The next three movies are all apparently set prior to Infinity War in what appears to be the largest diversion so far from chronological filmmaking in the MCU. Ant-Man and Wasp is immediately post civil war, Spidey is immediately following the previous spidey film, and Cap marvel is 90s era. This appears to be intentional so they don't have to deal with the deaths at all until Endgame.

Overall, was pretty good, saw it twice, and I agree that they definitely framed it around Thanos as the protagonist, which is kinda fun. I don't particularly empathize with him, but I like seeing the villain as the central character, and anyways, there's plenty of sympathy with the heroes to hold up that end of things. It's a decent sort of glue to make a cast this ridiculous work. Also...dear god I feel bad for the visual effects folks.

but he is so powerful that you wonder why he doesn't just directly create more resources...

Well...

Spoiler:

It's not that kind of power. Or at least, it isn't until he gets all the infinity stones, maybe. Generally, he's been really good at raising armies, punching things, and executing people. He has a pattern. He plays to pattern even when he doesn't strictly need to kill someone. Yeah, maybe his beliefs started him down this path, but he is clearly unwilling to re-examine them. I mean, he is definitely an evil villain, even if he does have a historical reason for how he got here.

Spoiler:

Even if that's the case, what's going to happen in 300 years, when the population has doubled again? How did he come up with that number? How is this solving the problem? It's just silly.

It's a comic book movie, of course the plan is silly. At least that what I tried to tell myself even though I would've also preferred something that made more sense. Not quite as silly as being in love with the personification of death, I guess.

I agree the whole story won't be very satisfying on a deeper level- after all half of all life in the Universe getting unexpectedly and inexplicably wiped out would have so many political, religious, social and psychological consequences that you can easily base a dramatic series on it. Instead I expect the aftermath will largely get glossed over until the whole thing gets reverted and everyone forgets about it. The nature of big comic book crossover events, I suppose- watch all those characters you know duke it out in a big colorful jumble with incomprehensibly high stakes that completely eclipses any relation to our mundane world.

but he is so powerful that you wonder why he doesn't just directly create more resources...

Well...

Spoiler:

It's not that kind of power. Or at least, it isn't until he gets all the infinity stones, maybe. Generally, he's been really good at raising armies, punching things, and executing people. He has a pattern. He plays to pattern even when he doesn't strictly need to kill someone. Yeah, maybe his beliefs started him down this path, but he is clearly unwilling to re-examine them. I mean, he is definitely an evil villain, even if he does have a historical reason for how he got here.

Spoiler:

Even if that's the case, what's going to happen in 300 years, when the population has doubled again? How did he come up with that number? How is this solving the problem? It's just silly.

I expect (or at least hope) that we'll get this explicitly pointed out next avengers film. Like, he is the Mad Titan after all and the only person we've seen ever say people were wrong to call him that was Thanos himself who is, understandably, biased.

It's a comic book movie, of course the plan is silly. At least that what I tried to tell myself even though I would've also preferred something that made more sense. Not quite as silly as being in love with the personification of death, I guess.

Just because the movie is based on a comic book doesn't mean it has to be a silly plan (neither do comic books consist only of silly plans). Magneto's plan to turn all world leaders into mutants in the first X-Men movie was grandiose and campy in a comic-book way but was definitely not silly.

Edited to fix spoiler tag.

Last edited by Zohar on Wed May 02, 2018 2:22 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Zohar wrote:Just because the movie is based on a comic book doesn't mean it has to be a silly plan (neither do comic books consist only of silly plans). Magneto's plan to turn all world leaders into mutants in the first X-Men movie was grandiose and campy in a comic-book way but was definitely not silly.

Right, I was mostly being facetious. That said the superhero movies that don't have villains with silly plans are few and far between and even they have their silly elements (the nonsensical science in the first XMen, the Nazi AI and Soviet superassassin in The Winter Soldier, pretty much the same in Civil War). Particularly the other Avengers movies have all had villains with silly plans so this one didn't surprise me.

Even if that's the case, what's going to happen in 300 years, when the population has doubled again? How did he come up with that number? How is this solving the problem? It's just silly.

Spoiler:

Absolutely. It's a horrible, horrific answer. Even if he's right about the problem, it's a terrible solution. Which is why I'm happy the heroes don't bother squabbling about the details with him overmuch.

He's been at it since...well, enough time for Gamora to grow up, certainly. Coupla decades? The rest of the universe, in that time, has not actually imploded. Sure, he sees his murder spree as a success, and if it is imperfect, the answer is to double down with more murder. Literally nobody else we see the perspective of shares his conclusions, though. The dwarves, for instance, got a pretty raw deal. You can't reasonably say they are better off now. The same is true of Knowhere. Both places we actually see.

Unfortunately, the ideology is not silly, and has a real world mirror in Malthusian idiology. We've only just passed the fiftieth anniversary of The Population Bomb's publishing. Despite having missed every prediction of doom and gloom, the author is still preaching apocalypse due to too many people still being, yknow, alive. So, certainly not silly in a "that's ludicrously unrealistic fashion", just awful.

Sure, the problem of overpopulation is real one a planetary scale (though if we're only judging from our own solar system, there's plenty of resources to go around for many more billions of people if we have the tech displayed in the Marvel universe). Doubtful it's as much of an issue on a universal scale, but I'm willing to accept that as the premise.

One of the great things about Black Panther was Killmonger had real criticisms for Wakanda and its role in the world. He was interesting because there was value in what he was talking about. Thanos's plan makes absolutely zero sense if you think of it for more than one second. It's just... for someone who's supposedly intelligent, to fail so miserably at thinking of a solution, is unreasonable.

That's not what I mean. "I want to kill everyone that opposes me until I'm the only ruler" is a shitty position to have, but it's a reasonable motive for a villain. "I love death so much I want to impress her with how many people I kill" is also a reasonable motive. "I want people to stop hating on mutants so I'll turn everyone to mutants" is the same way. All three have a specific goal in mind, and the method they choose to pursue that goal makes sense. Thanos's plan won't actually achieve his goal. That's why it's stupid. His goal is fine - to make sure there's enough resources to go around. But the solution makes zero sense.

It doesn't take a lot to be a decent villain - The Incredibles didn't have an amazing villain, but the plan was sound - "I'll show everyone that tech is better than heroes, and sell tech to everyone". The problem was he actively wanted to harm people to achieve his goals, and his goal is not even that bad. Thanos has the same (well, greater) disregard for life, but there's multiple missing steps in his solution.

... for someone who's supposedly intelligent, to fail so miserably at thinking of a solution, is unreasonable.

Spoiler:

Well he's clearly insane too. From the story he told presumably the loss of his planet and race for not listening to him broke him. I mean he's been manually culling the populations of various planets for decades. He says how the planets have remained paradises now, which is either delusion, the populace being too scared of another culling to keep growing or people just yes manning to him and telling him what he wants to hear. I think in the context him continuing on the same path is fine for his character. His plan is terrible but I can see him thinking its the right thing to do without needing to question his intelligence. He may be smart, but he's clearly got other mental issues. Just the fact that he thinks the people of the universe will be GRATEFUL that he murders half of them is a pretty good testament to that.

I suppose you could see it that way, I didn't get that from the film though. I felt like the "people will thank me" bit was more about people acknowledging that he's right in the end, not actually being happy and supportive of his genocide. My issue with the insane interpretation is we're spending a lot of time exploring his past and trying to develop his character (unsuccessfully, IMO), but that introspection is still absent from his plans. People with mental health issues still have reasons for what they're doing, even if they're not great reasons.

I suppose in the end I just feel like he was developed in the wrong areas and left stunted in other areas I found more important.

That's not what I mean. "I want to kill everyone that opposes me until I'm the only ruler" is a shitty position to have, but it's a reasonable motive for a villain. "I love death so much I want to impress her with how many people I kill" is also a reasonable motive. "I want people to stop hating on mutants so I'll turn everyone to mutants" is the same way. All three have a specific goal in mind, and the method they choose to pursue that goal makes sense. Thanos's plan won't actually achieve his goal. That's why it's stupid. His goal is fine - to make sure there's enough resources to go around. But the solution makes zero sense.

Spoiler:

I'm not so sure I see the distinction you are making. Killmonger's plan in particular made way less sense than Thanos'- he'll send weapons to someone and that way he'll start a... world wide race war? What was he actually trying to accomplish? Who was going to be fighting whom? The movie itself showed us violent conflicts internal to Africa so was he trying to start a bunch of national wars throughout the continent?

Thanos' plan was only a short term solution to a problem I am not convinced actually existed outside his head but at least it was a valid short term solution to such a problem.

Also he revealed he tried reason and diplomacy and those routes failed him. Much like Magneto's plan, the brutality of the means is in no small part a way to punish even if they refuse to quite admit it outright.