Is the Bible still relevant? Americans' relationship with the holy text

Comments

John 1:12 was written when Priesthood authority was on the
earth before it was removed because of wickedness and unbelief.

Look at all the evil things done in the name of religion and God. These are
not the works of God, but the abominations of those who perverted religion to do
evil.

Many people still had faith in Christ. But, the Priesthood
authority to organize and administer Christ's Church was taken from the
earth and man was left unto his own doctrine.

The scriptures
mentioned are about the three Nephite disciples and John the Beloved, who were
all given power over death that they will remain on earth until the Savior
returns in His glory. They were to record events, minister, and help restore
Christ's Church.

Grace without works where mere belief in Christ
is all that is needed to enter the kingdom of Heaven makes no sense for the
living and those who died without a chance to accept Christ. It is all mercy
for only a select few in history and unfair justice for everyone else, which
makes God's word void. It contradicts the Bible in every way despite any
quotes given to support.

John 1:12, “…those who believe in his name—he(Jesus)
has given the right(authorized)to become God’s children”

3Nephi 28:7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death;
but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of
men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the
Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8
And ye shall Never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory
ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to
“immortality;” and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my
Father.

D&C 7:1–3, John the Beloved will live until the
Lord comes;. Can the apostle John trust Jesus’s word?

And God
hath set some in the church, “First apostles”, Secondarily prophets,
thirdly teachers,…(1 Cor 12:28). Apostles are the first line of N.T.
authority not the office of prophet

1.96 Standard DeviationsOREM, UT

Sept. 12, 2013 10:36 a.m.

Sharrona-

Yes, three disciples were allowed to remain alive but they
were taken away due to "the inquity" of the people. Consider the verses
in Mormon 1:13,16 referring to these disciples (approximately 320 AD in the
Americas):

"13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the
whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the
work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the
people."

"16 And I did endeavor to preach unto this people,
but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for
behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples
were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity"

In
short, there is not a contradiction between a general apostasy in the world and
what is recorded in the Bible and Book of Mormon. You are taking the phrase
total apostasy too far. In short, an organization (church) with properly
authorized individuals (priesthood holders) were no more and many truths of the
Gospel were distorted over time -- a restoration was necessary. Read 2
Thessalonians 2:1-3 too. General apostasy was prophesied.

Craig ClarkBoulder, CO

Sept. 11, 2013 11:16 a.m.

Is the Bible still relevant? Whether it is or isn’t, it sure seems to
comes in handy to prove the other guy wrong.

sharronalayton, UT

Sept. 11, 2013 9:48 a.m.

RE: EternalPerspective, The idea of a total apostasy would be blaming Jesus
with a total lie.

“I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it”(Mt 16:18)

Salvation is found in no one
else, for there is no other name(Jesus) under heaven given to mankind by which
we must be saved(Acts 4:12)

The mere idea of a total apostasy not
only contradicts the message in the Bible, but it also contradicts the BoM.
3Nephi 28:1-8 tells us that Jesus Christ supposedly told three Nephite disciples
that they would never taste of death but remain alive until the Lord’s
coming in the clouds. Think of it. Three of Christ’s own disciples were
actually to remain alive on earth until the second coming. Did they aposticize
also? If not then there couldn’t possibly a total apostasy. For where two
or three gather in my name,there am I with them Matthew 18:20.

If
there was no total apostasy, then there was no need for the Mormon Church.

EternalPerspectiveEldersburg, MD

Sept. 11, 2013 9:01 a.m.

sharrona

And yet, what church upon the earth since early AD times has
contained all the doctrine and ordinances mentioned in the New Testament (until
Joseph Smith)? Why if there was not a great apostasy or unto man-made doctrine,
did everything change so much? Why the Nicene creed? Why the Reformation
leaders? Why does Christianity continue to evolve today?

Some can
cite early (1st or 2nd century) AD so called church leaders, but how much do we
know about them? How much of God's authority and true doctrine as stated
in the New Testament remained?

The last dispensation ushered in by
Joseph Smith as the first prophet during this period was to contain the fullness
of the Gospel, the restoration or restitution of all things, and exist in a
period known as the fullness of the Gentiles.

That means everything
that has ever been on the earth contained in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and
God's Plan from the beginning of the world (Adam) down to the present day
would be included such as Priesthoods, Priesthood keys, covenants, organization,
etc. It also means all doctrine, practices, and ordinances of the New Testament
was not preserved.

sharronalayton, UT

Sept. 11, 2013 8:14 a.m.

RE: EternalPerspective, The Bible cannot with a more complete doctrine of
Christ including errors and missing precepts that were taken from the Bible.
Wrong,

Over 26,000 N.T. quotes from the(2nd c) disciples of the
apostles and early church fathers can reconstruct the N.T. less 11 verses.
“.

As non-Catholic historians admit, it can be demonstrated
easily that early Church writers, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Eusebius, Clement
of Rome, and Polycarp, had no conception of Mormon doctrine, and they knew
nothing of a "great apostasy." Nowhere in their writings can one find
references to Christians embracing any of the peculiarly Mormon doctrines, such
as polytheism, *polygamy, celestial marriage, and temple ceremonies. If the
Church of the apostolic age was the prototype of today’s Mormon church, it
must have had all these beliefs and practices. But why is there no evidence of
them in the early centuries, before the alleged apostasy began?

I,e.. Irenaeus (c.180) condemns the Gnostics for, among other things,*
polygamy: "Others, again, following upon Basilides and Carpocrates, have
introduced promiscuous intercourse and a plurality of wives..." [ANF, vol.
1, p.353]

EternalPerspectiveEldersburg, MD

Sept. 11, 2013 3:02 a.m.

sharrona

I'm not sure what is meant by "original articles of
faith #8", but this is how it stands today: "We believe the Bible to be
the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book
of Mormon to be the word of God.".

While the Bible is subject to
translation errors and missing doctrine as handed down through many generations,
the Book of Mormon is the word of God as translated by one man who was given the
power and gift of God to bring forth a pure and undefiled work.

The
Bible is a witness of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon is another testimony.
It contains the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It goes where the Bible
cannot with a more complete doctrine of Christ including errors and missing
precepts that were taken from the Bible by men who had much to gain of the world
in their craft.

Words of the Bible and Book of Mormon cannot be
proven true, save the Holy Ghost bears record of their divinity. Hence, the
pattern of revelation is how God reveals His works, not the interpretation of
men.

sharronalayton, UT

Sept. 10, 2013 5:40 p.m.

The Bible(biblos),No ancient literature has survived in its original form;
everything we have is derived from copies of the originals. The NT is no
exception. However, in comparison with any other ancient literature, the NT is
without a peer—both in terms of the chronological proximity and the
surviving number.Several ancient authorities are preserved in only a
handful of manuscripts. Not so with the NT. There are approximately 5,500 Greek
witnesses, ranging in date from the second century AD into the middle ages.
Besides the Greek evidence, there are nearly 30,000 versional copies (e.g.,
Latin, Coptic, and Syriac), and over 1,000,000 quotations from the NT in the
church Fathers. NT textual criticism has always had an embarrassment of riches
unparalleled in any other field. . There are four kinds of Greek witnesses:
papyri, uncials (or majuscules), minuscules (or cursives), and lectionaries.

RE: EternalPerspective,The original articles of faith. #8 We believe in
the Word of God recorded in the Bible; we also believe the Word of God recorded
in the Book of Mormon, and in all other good books. See current #8.

Craig ClarkBoulder, CO

Sept. 10, 2013 12:45 p.m.

Tyler D,

I hope my closing remark didn’t sound like it was
aimed at anyone in particular. I enjoy the give and take of a good discussion.
Your comments are always civil and thoughtful.

The Bible will
always mean different things to different people. Its numerous authors had their
own reasons for putting ink to scroll. What they wrote often took sides in the
issues of their times. Heated disagreement over its value today helps keep it
alive.

Tyler DMeridian, ID

Sept. 10, 2013 11:10 a.m.

@bandersen – “every once in awhile I get a good laugh reading your
perspective because I can absolutely see your point”

Thanks for
the kind acknowledgement.

Atheist is a fair description at least as
far as the God of Abraham goes (as well as all the other anthropomorphic gods
throughout history), but overall the term agnostic is a better fit since I
don’t claim to know how the universe came into being and what creative
force is being space & time.

And yes, God “bringing us
along” is the typical justification for the OT, however, (as one more
example) it just strikes me as odd that when the creator of the universe was
chiseling the Big Ten into stone, he couldn’t have mentioned that treating
other human beings like farm equipment is wrong (at least as bad as coveting
your neighbor’s ox or manservant).

@Craig Clark –
“What a shame that so many in the class missed out on what he had to
offer.”

If everyone saw the Bible as just literature, you would
never see another such comment from me.

Newton’s 3rd law my
friend…

Craig ClarkBoulder, CO

Sept. 10, 2013 10:51 a.m.

Years ago, I took a college course titled the Bible as Literature. I can’t
say I was surprised that many of the students who took the course brought their
own agenda to the course, Classroom discussions kept getting diverted by those
who seized the opportunity to witness how God came into their hearts one day and
changed their lives. That was OK to listen to once. Other students used the
discussions to rant and rail against all the psychological damage done to
Western man by the Judeo-Christian religious traditions. That too was OK to
listen to – once.

I felt sorry for our professor. He really
knew his material and had great enthusiasm for the subject. What a shame that so
many in the class missed out on what he had to offer.

bandersenSaint George, UT

Sept. 10, 2013 10:25 a.m.

Mint Julip: I would answer that the very reason why He designed it in His
Omniscient way shows His capacity to truly give us the opportunity to learn.
How can an omniscient God be frustrated with something he already knew? Is that
your question? My own children have been told at times, or I have known that a
decision they were making was the wrong one, that I knew what the outcome would
be, but still allowed them to move forward with them because I knew they would
learn in no other way. Frustrated? Perhaps, particularly if they continue to
kick against the pricks. However, in a lot of ways the consequences of their
decisions are out of my control. In the end, if it administers to their growth
and development, then being frustrated seems pointless. God is much more
patient and has a universal perspective that dwarfs my limited understanding.
However, from my perspective, He must get very frustrated. From His, it might
be a mixture of humor and soberness. In either case, He is a teacher.

Mint JulipKAYSVILLE, UT

Sept. 10, 2013 9:15 a.m.

@Bandersen,

I can't understand an all powerful creator with
perfect knowledge creating something that he is then frustrated by. Isn't
it a little like a computer programmer that would expect his program to run
differently than how he designed it?

You say that God "has to
work with what's available" but that neglects that (according to
yourself) God created what is available. To say that God's words, plan and
even Himself are frustrated because he has to work with the our limited capacity
as humans falls flat if he is omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful and the
creator of all things.

bandersenSaint George, UT

Sept. 10, 2013 7:42 a.m.

Tyler: I find most of your views about God faithless, but that, of course, is
understandable if you are an athiest. However, every once in awhile I get a
good laugh reading your perspective because I can absolutely see your point,
especially regarding different aspects of the Old Testament. Although I find
some parts that strain my understanding of God and His children, I can also
understand that no matter the time period, God has had to work with what is
available, which doesn't leave Him much in most cases. Nevertheless, He
still tries to open a our eyes, even if it takes generations or longer! One only
has to live a few years on this earth to be able to look back and see the
ignorance with which the previous decades or longer ruled your life on any of a
number of topics to realize, humans are humans no matter when or where they
live. No excuses, just reality. God has to be extremely frustrated most of
time in dealing with us. The Sermon on the Mount was followed by the dark ages!
Humans don't change!

EternalPerspectiveEldersburg, MD

Sept. 10, 2013 4:09 a.m.

Contentions with interpreted points of doctrine from the Bible mark the patterns
of AD times with the rise of many churches. While the Bible remains a sacred
text about the dealings of God with His covenant people in the eastern
continents, it is not an exclusive account of God's word and works with all
the inhabitants of the earth.

The existence of so many religions,
churches, denominations, and doctrines based on ancient text alone was never the
pattern of God's works in the Bible, so why is it today, save they are
man-made? Instead, the pattern of the Bible is revelation from a living prophet
called of God and received by disciples as sacred covenants made through His
Priesthood.

The "falling away" of God's Church and
truths through sin happened many times in the Bible including the great Apostasy
foreshadowed in the New Testament. But, the promise of restoration was also a
prophecy that led a young Joseph Smith to become God's appointed prophet
once again to restore these core patterns of the Bible. God does not change
these patterns, but only witholds them until people on the earth become prepared
to receive again.

Tyler DMeridian, ID

Sept. 9, 2013 9:41 p.m.

There certainly is good stuff in the Bible, but you really have to plug your
nose to get to it… especially early on.

If people were looking
to model a society on the Bible, and stopped reading after the first five books
of the OT, the society created from this template would make Taliban led
Afghanistan look like Denmark.

A significant number of early
Christians (e.g., Marcionites) wanted to jettison the OT altogether. The world
would doubtless be better off had they done so (imagine the world we might live
in had the Sermon on the Mount been the only part of the Bible to survive). As
one example, without the OT slavery would have been on shaky ground
theologically and would have had a tough time justifying its existence in the
face of Jesus’ teachings to love your neighbor.

Instead
Southern preachers used to make mincemeat of their Northern counterparts (prior
to 1860 when debates on slavery were a regular occurrence) because they could
cite chapter & verse circles around the abolitionists.