Shots Fired: Part 2

Friday, March 24, 2017 - 01:00 AM

A couple years ago, Ben Montgomery, reporter at the Tampa Bay Times, started emailing every police station in Florida.

He was asking for any documents created - from 2009 to 2014 - when an officer discharged his weapon in the line of duty. He ended up with a six foot tall stack of reports, pictures, and press clippings cataloging the death or injury of 828 people by Florida police.

In part 2 of Shots Fired, Jad and Robert talk to Ben about how communication breakdowns too often lead to violence and our reporter Matt Kielty sits with one man who found himself at the center of a police visit gone horribly wrong.

Produced and reported by Matt Kielty.

For the full presentation of Ben Montgomery's reporting please visit the Tampa Bay Times' 'Why Do Cops Shoot?" We can't recommend it highly enough.

Guests:

Tags:

More in:

Comments [41]

S
from California

I was so disappointed with this episode. Part 1 was good, the interview with the Daytona Beach chief was great, the stories from support group for victims families was depressing yet inspiring. One mother knew 400 other families affected by wrongful police shootings. Think about that, just one grieving mother knew 400 other mothers who lost their children. And yet instead of telling these people's stories, RadioLab spent an entire episode on a drunk and high couple, where someone got killed for pointing a rifle at the police. This is why the journalists don't know anything about how prevalent police shootings are against black people. Black people's stories are not in the mainstream news, we don't hear about every unjustified police shooting that happens, especially when the victim is just another person of color.

No joke, as I'm writing this, I just heard shots fired, six of 'em, with a copter deployed overheard not 10 minutes later, but I digress.

These two links are to a recent (04/27/2017) Santa Clara County District Attorney Report on the clearance of three Sunnyvale Public safety officers for firing 12 shots into a knife-wielding mentally ill Moises Nerio in Sunnyvale on November 12, 2015. Listen to the Public safety officer warn his potential assailant of deadly force by declaring "I feel threatened" and a mortal threat to his safety despite the company of their well armed militia and how it was deployed to reconcile both their physical and legal defense as lawful and justified when Moises Nerio failed to follow instructions and drop his 13-inch 8-inch blade.

There are so many things some of these critics fail to realize--Police is state sponsored violence. They are gangs to many of us. Many of us are bullied repeatedly by state sponsored gang members and there rarely is police accountability. I have personally lost so much. We need to continue to have these conversations and most of all, we need to act and change policies.

I agree with the commenters that our police people do not need to have weapons, especially since they have proven over and over that they can't handle them. They are given all these weapons and protective gear that they are trained to use to kill other people with. They are taught how to fear everyone as possible criminals, except for themselves. They are given all these tools of destruction by our government, and the training to use it in an irresponsible way.

We can't blame this on individual culpability, as in, oh those officers were stupid or reacted badly. What are we expecting when we trained them and authorized them to behave that way? That's why no courts ever convict them of wrongdoing. How can they be doing wrong, if we put the guns in their hands and asked them to go out there and shoot to kill??

We can't blame this on the man or the wife either. If someone has a drug or alcohol problem or PTSD or a domestic dispute or any number of vices or personality or psychiatric defects, that is no reason to kill them or do anything other than help them.

We've got a justice system that has gone wild, because we have let them get that way. We the people have to stop giving our government the right to shoot to kill. We need to take their big boy toys away from them, and put in place new equipment, new tools of comfort and aid and protection and service. Instead of calling policemen to handle every kind of emergency and problem, we have to ask 911 to come up with the correct specialist to handle every kind of situation. We seem to have no tools other than courts and criminalization of everything that we don't like. How does criminalizing poverty or drug dependency or mental illness work, exactly? Will it make poor people stop being poor if we make it illegal to be poor?

The thing I'm especially disappointed in, is that police is one giant protection racket, and yet, they are the first to fall victim to fear. They are more fearful than the average citizen. When they are supposed to be protecting us from our fear. All they do is aggravate fear.

Thank you for doing such a good job on this story, making it clear how confusing things can be. For those who want to know how the shooting of Andrea Shelby was reported elsewhere, see the tampabay database entry on it at http://www.tampabay.com/projects/2017/investigations/florida-police-shootings/database/202/ and a story at http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-09-08/story/fdle-clears-st-johns-county-sheriffs-deputies-shooting-hospice-nurse

It's interesting to hear the blatant racist and hateful views of some of the commentators. Most try to passive aggressively attempt to say it was the lack of journalistic insight, inability to put forward an original concept or simply praise the police regardless the circumstances. These are very much akin to locals in the South cherishing and valuing the terrific work of the clan as they lynched innocent Black men, women, pregnant women, veterans and children. I am not surprised at the hate and indignation that many of these listeners are willing to put forward, for such is the great legacy of America. Thank you Radiolab for at least attempting to unveil outright racism and white supremacy. Unfortunately, America and her citizens are saturated in vile bigotry and inhumanity, hence the outright indignation at the mere mention of documented racial bias on the behalf of the police.

Is it fake news when Radiolab and Sixty Minutes both produce stories about cops who shoot and kill suspects for failing instructions? Remember this is not about cops and robbers guns blazing and prison breaks -- this is about cops according to their own statements too incompetent and afraid *NOT* to shoot. We need more Andy Griffiths and fewer Dirty Harrys who wanna be cops -- and they have to be recruited from the successful ranks of other occupations first too -- in fact, if you wanna be a cop, you and the other Betty Shelbys and Thomas Cowards who apply should be doubly vetted for their motives and values -- if you wanna be on a jury, of course, you, your motives and agenda should be suspect. Some of the indignant self-righteous commentary posted above objecting to the very notion of journalists scrutinizing how killer cops account for themselves shows me just how ugly, biased, and shameless the apparent support is for policies and conduct that barely disguise manslaughter and murder in the name of righteousness and public safety. In both pieces, the cops responsible say their victims simply "made" them do it. Unless we hire cops with the will and constitution to be existentially as concerned for potential bad guys as they are for themselves (not to mention for half-naked women albeit with shotguns squinting behind screen doors at gawd knows what glaring in their eyes), then scared-to-death incompetent cops are gonna keep on killing us long before anything can possibly threaten or harm them INNIT! And of course, that's how it should be INNIT! Cantchu see the damn logic and wisdom of it all for gawd sakes! -- and if not WTF is WRONG with you! Am I being harsh! You always shoot first and ask questions later dontcha! That's what prosecutors, defense attorneys, and grand juries are for aren't they! Case closed! Let's go home and eat!

I appreciate RadioLab looking at the epidemic of police shootings in the US. The issue is too big to be ignored. I found it very interesting that the data shows that the number of police shootings is flat which means this level of shooting and killing has been going on for as long as the data has been collected. But I know 20 years ago I was involved in pushing for police accountability around shootings and violence and the same kind of stories were told at that time.

I am surprised by the listeners who are offended by the Shots Fired podcasts. There is thankfully a growth of mainstream reporting on the topic of police behavior that exposes the unchecked biases of race and class. The ESPN documentary Made in America is one to check out as well as Making a Murderer on Netflix.

The frustration I had with the reporting was that Ben has the moment of the "gap" understanding while meeting with the mother of the young woman who was arrested for failing to signal. That moment where the mother is trying to explain how constant racism is should be an ah-ha moment for the audience. Instead, I felt the narrative made it more of a questioning of the prevalence of racism.

Nonetheless, I appreciated the two episodes and I hope there are more podcasts like this in the future!

Seriously, what are you guys doing to this show? This is a third-rate episode of "This American Life." Radiolab was a great original and fresh show on its own right, a leader in its own domain. Why do you want to imitate (badly, I might add) the most successful show of its kind?

Thank you for the thought-provoking episodes on such a complex and important issue.

I came to the website to ask you to PLEASE address the question of how often police officers shot while on duty. I think this is a pretty obvious question in thinking about why police officers shoot people. The idea that police officers risk their lives to protect citizens is a pervasive and powerful concept that shapes this narrative.

But what are the statistics? How many officers are shot, shot and killed, compared to the number that they shoot, shoot and kill?

The answer is an important piece of the story that I have yet to hear reported.

I had many issues with this episode, but one of them was when the reporter kept badgering Rick to talk about what he was feeling that night after he said he has PTSD. If a person has PTSD, treat them with a little bit more sensitivity.

The ignorance in these two reports was unbearable. If you consulted any police experts, like the Force Science Institute (where they study the science and human dynamics behind deadly force encounters), it was not evident. http://www.forcescience.org/

If the pen is mightier than the sword - it is more dangerous also. You caused harm, good riddance RadioLab.

How can Rick believe he has no culpability in the death of his wife. In my eyes he is responsible more so than the police who were doing their best in a bad situation. Also, his cowardly blame of PTSD is truly pathetic.

I'm so disappoint in this episode. This is not the quality I have come to expect from Radio Lab. I love radio lab and have listened for years. And when it comes to getting people into podcasts it’s always my top recommendation. I have come to expect Radio Lab to leave me thinking and wondering if what I thought I knew was right. This episode just left me annoyed. It was so obvious there is a huge piece of the puzzle missing. This guy was so obviously not telling you something, and when pressed, you just backed off. The story was so one sided. For example you could hear the fear in the voice of the dispatcher that told the cops to be careful multiple times. Where was this fear coming from? You could hear it in the cops response to the dispatcher. They showed up at the scene already in fear of their own lives. Where did all that come from? It’s hard to believe all this fear came from a simple serious of miscommunications? And that part of the story was completely glossed over in a matter of seconds. It feels so obvious we aren’t being given the whole story and that just left me angry and annoyed, and so disappointed. I know you said you reached out the sheriff’s department but what about those dispatchers? Have any of them left? Did you even try and figure out the missing piece? I’m reminded of one of my favorite episodes; the one with the hunter who paid a huge amount of money to hunt a white rino. You guys drilled him so hard. You were ruthless. But in this episode the guy says ‘I don’t want to talk about it’ and you’re ‘oh okay then’. Come on! Also in the hunter episode it was obvious you didn’t agree with him but you let him tell his side of the story. And my favorite part is how you ended that show. You ended it with, what I think was the hunters strongest argument. It left the listener pondering their own world view. That ending is why radio lab is so good. This episode by comparison was just another crappy one sided same ol same ol story. I was looking forward to this deep dive into aggregated data on police shootings. What I got was a deep dive into an incomplete picture. Frankly it was lame. If this is the direction Radio Lab is going I’m not sure it can remain at the top of my recommendations list. Sorry but there are too many other good podcasts out there now.

Edward Abbey said "Never has any situation been so screwed up that the cops couldn't make it worse".That seems to be the situation here. Yet, I have to say that if Rick had taken responsibility for his PTSD and gotten real help instead of dispensing self help from a bottle of tequila the whole situation could have most likely been avoided. That being said,the cops acted stupidly, in my opinion, and got away with murder.

I find it appalling that no one seems to recognize the purpose of these two podcast. We are diving into the grey area of a highly debated topic. There is no Good or Bad guy here. Just stories they have very real impacts on a society that affects us all.

Remember this is a focus on police shootings in FLORIDA, Not the entire country. Save your arguments for those who want vindication on your specific view. I commend Radio Lab for tackling this topic as outsiders looking in. It's not going to be perfect, it's not going to be mechanical, it's going to be organic. If you cant handle a podcast for tackling an imperfect subject, with imperfect viewpoints, with in complete data, PLEASE unsubscribe and move on.

THIS is effing unbelievable, except it's really no surprise.A cautionary tale about many things, one of them?... maybe having so many guns around isn't such a good idea. The story has it all, miscommunication, nervous police, a bit of booze, a few guns.Because of all that, I'd say it's the PERFECT American Tragedy.

I would like to see a shots fired volume 3 tracking the story of Police gunned down in the line of duty. As it stands, you have given the audience 2 episodes showing bad situations with police pulling the trigger. Is there an episode coming to show the other side? That would make a balanced conversation. I have seen abuse of power by police, but Police also play a huge role in preserving public safety and discouraging criminal activity. Please let me know if there will be an episode like this. If there will not be, would you please help me understand why? Thanks!

Thought provoking but a little too dark for the normal Radiolab fare. A bit one-sided as well with each story graphically painting law enforcement as the unaccountable perpetrators of the crimes against defenseless citizens.

While not excusing occasional poor judgement by law enforcement, to not balance the overwhelming occasions of extremely difficult situations that these people are in day in and day out - the life and death decisions made hourly - is regretful.

I kept waiting for the producer to introduce some hope and perspective to the difficult dilemmas presented - but none was given.

And this story I am fascinated by the fact that the police attempted CPR and attempted to save Andy's life. And so many incidents involving black victims you never see the police attempt to CPR or even basic first date. I feel like I've seen several videos of black victims lying and essentially bleeding to death waiting for paramedics when officers trained to perform basic first aid could be stepping in to help. Perhaps it's worth looking at how often victims of police violence are treated immediately to save their lives and how that varies between ethnic groups.

Those recordings sound like a Chinese whispers game gone horribly wrong. The system is broken starting with that inefficient process. Human lives are a stake, I can't believe that they haven't created a better way to do this job.

It's damn heartbreaking to know that this kind of incidents happen over miscommunication. Even worse, that police officers never accept any responsibility when murdering an innocent civilian.

Thank you Radiolab and thank you Rick, for sharing this profoundly painful story and shedding light onto a huge issue that NEEDS to be seen, talked about and addressed as soon as possible.

Surprise surprise, the callous cop-worshippers turned out to whine about "biased reporting". God forbid anyone ever question police or suggest that maybe the police could ever improve anything. Thank god we live in the land of the "free" where we are forbidden by patriotic pinheads from ever criticizing the police. I love how the same crowd that claims that it stands for freedom and small government always comes out in propaganda guzzling droves to defend any police killing no matter the evidence against them. I wonder what they'll all say when it happens to one of them.

They were two children pushing 50 and he acted like a child in the interview as well. He needs to take responsibility for his actions. It was an accident in which he and her provided the inputs of drugs, alcohol, guns, and third parties.

If you hold a gun, anyone within range of that gun will feel threatened. It doesn't matter where you are, people will feel threatened, that is why you like them so much. There is a cost to making people feel threatened

I feel like I've been saying this a lot but I miss the old Radiolab. I'm not sure how this story (or Part 1 in this series) relates to science or philosophy (as how Radiolab is described in their website); it's not that this was a bad story, it was interesting but it's not Radiolab. There were almost no points where analytical science was explained or philosophical ideas explored in this episode or the previous one. It was a story, plain and simple, told from the perspective of one person and the theme was how things can get "confusing".

You want to know how you prevent that "confusion"? Police, you need turn on your damned lights when you reach a scene, put on your sirens, don't sneak up on people...it's a freaking welfare check on a woman! Second, the guy who drives off in his truck in the middle of the night with a bottle of booze, getting stuck in the middle of nowhere and then proceeds to talk about "guns" has some major blame in this situation as well. He was obviously planning on driving drunk at some point, he was running around with guns while drinking and he was upset...not a good combination, at a minimum go to a friend's house instead of driving off and drinking in your truck (then getting stuck).

Radiolab is so hit or miss lately, I love the science based episodes and even the ones that explore philosophical ideas that make me think are pretty good but these episodes that tell a story from a single perspective and push an ideology down your throat (poverty is bad, police screw up, Seneca Nebraska - cooperate or else) are a dime a dozen, there are so many podcasts that already do those stories. Radiolab should be better and stick to their origins, with good science and philosophy episodes that show how real people are effected by those things. If you must do these "human interest stories" with a message you want to get out, just create a new podcast, don't do it under the Radiolab brand. Just like how "More Perfect" was branched off to tell Supreme Court stories (which I love that show too!) I think there is a need to branch off these types of stories from the Radiolab brand, which has become more and more diluted as of late. Just my two cents from someone who has been listening since the beginning.

Scott from Denver, you really laid it out and made it easy to see how fishy the cops are. What I can't understand is how people coming into a police academy have never been in a physical fight (This was mentioned in Part 1). Where do these sheltered babies come from? They must come from homogenized white middle class communities full of white picket fence houses. No wonder they freak out and sh*t their pants when they get in any uncomfortable situation. Having never been in a fight they are weak and scared of their own shadows. Do such places exist where it is possible to grow up without ever having been in a fight? I can not count the number of knock down dragout fights I got into growing up. And I was not raised in a bad area. Maybe they should only let ex-combat veterans, or tough people raised in the ghetto become cops so they won't freak out.

Yikes, two highly biased and manipulative episodes in a row. Radiolab, it's time for you to get back to your core competency of science and technology based content. Isn't the purpose of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, as mentioned in the closing credits each week?

Powerful and disturbing story but I really feel like something was left out. It felt really unresolved. I would have really have liked to have an expert or 2 comment on what happened just to give it some sense of closure or at least give us some slight sense of police procedure or what the police perpective was so we could at least make a bit more sense of what happened. Unlike any other Radiolab story I've ever heard it really left a very strange, unpleasant undone feeling at the end. I really did not like that. I should also mention that I am a liberal who usually has the opposite feeling when I hear these stories.

Odd that so many people the last two episodes are so worried about the officers and their families perspective. What's stopping them from sharing it? Nothing, seeing as they are alive, unlike those that have been killed by officers. A civilian kills another for most any reason, they go to jail. A cop kills an unarmed individual or an innocent? They go on paid leave and get a promotion. It's time we hold police to a higher standard, seeing as the citizens they are killing who assist in paying their salaries.

Great story, Radiolab. Just goes to show how the current culture of the police seems to be shoot first, ask questions later, if at all. They are public servants, but they so rarely remember to serve the public they pledged to protect. So, for all the people trying to shame Radiolab, let me get this straight. A group of cops roll up in the middle of the swamp, don't announce themselves with lights or sirens, or even a phone call, creep on to a porch, peer into a bedroom window, and are then surprised when the occupant of that home comes out armed? And then proceed to fire 24 times at a little woman in her underwear who was awoken from sleep by, again, a bunch of guys who likely only started announcing their identities as police (in a calm, composed manner, I'm sure) once she reacted to what she (justifiably) assumed were intruders? And then don't face charges, even the idiot who, by his own admission, didn't see what was going on, and only started firing when he heard everyone else doing it? Yeah, sounds like trained, prepared, and empathetic to me. Sounds like just the kind of people I want "protecting" my well-being. Maybe if they weren't in the middle of an active investigation for wrongful death in a situation they clearly mishandled, we'd have heard some kind of justification from the people responsible. I don't blame Radiolab for reporting this story the way they did. I blame the cops that brought this on themselves.

After the first heavily biased part of this two-part episode, I was expecting at least an attempt to redress the balance this time.

Boy was I wrong. Simply a hack job detailing the encounter between this woman and the Police. No attempt whatsoever to explain why she rose the shotgun at Police, nor to discuss the limited options of Police when someone points a weapon directly at them.

Clearly there's an agenda here with this kind of anti-Police journalism.

First, I love Radiolab. I love the in depth portrayal of everyday subjects from different angles. Secondly, I am a law enforcement officer and I was really hoping for the same analysis on this subject that you give the rest of the topics on your show. I was very disappointed. There is a definite need to hear the stories of those impacted by interactions with the police in order for the conversation to continue and improve the relationship between the public and the police. That being said, there are so many factors that go into confrontations that you left uncovered. No interview with any officer that was involved in a shooting, no analysis of the science and physiology of confrontations, no interview with any family member of a police officer... There are so many aspects of police work that the public has no context for, that if included may at least provide some insight on why we act certain ways in certain situations. I expect a more complete story from you Radiolab.

They shot 24 times, and hit her 8 times.There are two massive issues here.First how does that demonstrate any kind of training, that only shows that they just kept unloading and hoping for the best spraying bullets.Secondly since they only hit her 8 of 24 times it also shows that their aim is not good enough either.

You guys are never going to learn that you don't need weapons.Sandy hook was the turning point, as soon as you decided that killing children was okay that was the end of hope for the possibility of reform.