I suggest you both to stop namecalling and ignore each other if you can not get along. I deleted a few of your posts from this thread. If you continue insulting each other I'll put your accounts under monitoring and your posts will not appear on the site until they get approved by moderators.

I suggest you both to stop namecalling and ignore each other if you can not get along. I deleted a few of your posts from this thread. If you continue insulting each other I'll put your accounts under monitoring and your posts will not appear on the site until they get approved by moderators.

He crossed the line, but you got nothing to worry about. It's now taken away from the public eye.

The information you have provided is very valuable. I know all these historical facts.

What is more concerning me is the language. We know that Urartian language originated from Hurrian and they do not belong to Indo-European language family. That means old hurrians and urartians did not talk armenian.

My question is who were the real ancestoers of armenians that mixed with urartians (or whatever happened) and established the first armenian kingdom.

Were they the Aryans? Or some tribes coming from north? Or were they always living in that region side by side with urartians but somehow always in the shade?

I need simple explanation of who were the old armenian speaking people and where did the originate. How can you explain the transitional period from Urartu to Armenia?

Urartian(Araratian) and Hurian langages originated from the same root.

Hur in Armenian means FIRE. The land of Huriians was the land of Sun(Ar-ev) God(also the God of fire). The name Suria is originated from the same word reffering to the God S-Arya.

One cannot make a claim that Hurrians were not Aryans the same way you must not claim Akkadian kingdom was a semitic kingdom. When the semites(Akkadians) moved from south to the north, they have adopted the Aryan way of life, and them ruling the kindom for some period of time doesn't give anyone a right to make false calims about the people of the land being semites.

I have already stated in my previous post that the name Urartu(UrTu) was used by the Assyrians. The Egyptians using the term Ermenen reffering to the region of Minni.

you did not answer my question, instead you are insisting your previous post.

I agree with you about the names and origins. But I do not aggree with you about accadians. Maybe they have adopted aryan style of life by absorbing summerians but they still are from semitic origin.

Aryans spoke a language from indo-european family.

Hurrian is an ergative-agglutinative language that, together with Urartian, constitutes the Hurro-Urartian family (from wikipedia).

Maybe I am an ignorant person but I still do not see any connection between hurrians and aryans when their languages are different. How did the transition happen and how did the language change? Who came first? Who has got absorbed?

I just need a neutral answer. Belive me, I love my country, but I want to know the truth.

ArmoArmeN,I just need a neutral answer. Belive me, I love my country, but I want to know the truth.

I know you love your country that's why you so eagrly deny everything presented to you. You are even imposing your pre-conditioned thought on others, and nothing I say will ever change your stance on the issue.

I am not a historian either, but I see where the problem comes from. I think the whole Zionist/Freemason/Bolshevik faggotery has derouted our brains from thinking clearly. We have to explain everything in terms of race. Let me tell you, I may be wrong but in my view the whole Aryan/Indo-European thing is pure baloney.

Aryan means Iranian plain and simple. Europeans are not Aryans. The whole Hitler crap was of the same caliber as the Sun Theory of Cacaturk. The language spoken in Armenia in the so-called Urartu period shares 80% of its vocabulary with Grabar and only 20% of its grammar. The same way today's Armenian shares 80% of Grabar vocabulary but 20% of its grammar, all percents approximate. Grammar changes faster than vocabulary.

The whole Bolshevik/Jewish scam to dissociate the Armenians from their ancestors and to equate the Armenians with the fake nations of the USSR including the bogus, fictitious "nation" the "Azeris", was to crush ancient nations using the pretext of International "brotherhood". The Georgians and the "Azeris" would smash Armenian churches and tell the party leaders they were getting rid of backward religious garbage, in essence destroying an old nation to justify their existence and "cure" their inferiority complex.

I believe the language that has served as the prototype for the so-called Indo-European group of languages has coexisted with the ancient form of our Armenian language. Relations with the so-called Indo-European peoples have influenced our language

I suggest you guys give the young historian Artak Movsissian's works a try. The guy is a walking encyclopedia and reads cuneiform like drinking water (if you see what I mean!).

And who says Jews know where they come from? Many think today's Jews are the leftovers of Khazars, hence, the affinity with the genocidal Turks. You don't believe the Bible cock and bull story of 5000 years of Jewish history, do you? In fact the Bible shows a great influence (read plagiarism) from Zoroastrianism which dates back 2500 to 3000 years MAX.

To cut a long story short: the people and the kings of the kingdom of Van (Biaina) were Armenians. They spoke Armenian and the inscriptions of the kings in Hurrian are irrelevant to the language spoken. In the same way, the Yervandunis have left inscriptions in Greek, does this mean the people also spoke Greek?

It's funny those who want to deny us our Urartu heritage say the mention of Armenia as Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Akkadian for the same country in Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana is irrelevant because the Kingdom of Urartu did not exist anymore (521 B.C.). But ironically this emphasizes that Armenia and Urartu were one and the same even more, otherwise, why would Darius mention Urartu when it had already "vanished"? You see how they fokk with our brains?

Also a research on Hayasa/Hayastan, Armani-Armanum/Armenia is not out of place. It cannot be accidental.

Armo has mentioned the kingdom of Aratta which dates back 4800 years at least. More voices consider Aratta and Ararat the same and now the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics" is in the trash can of history, people can research more freely.

It’s interesting how easily we give up our heritage (the same way some “Armenians” are OK with ceding land to “Azeris”) where the Turks who are nothing but savage, barbaric, nomadic, tent-dwelling, cattle-herder, Ural-Altaic, Mongolo-Tatar, Oghuz-Turkmen bandits claims the civilizations of Sumerians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Greeks, Persians, Aratta, Urartians, Elamites, Hitites, Hurries, Armenians, Medes, Kurds, Aghvank, Ionians, Phrygians, Scythians, Manni, Martians, Saturnans, Jupiterians, Out of Milkywayans, Parallel Universians, Out of this Universians, Pre Big Bangians, Residents of the Black Holes, etc., etc., etc.

_________________________________________________________________

I paste from another post of mine on another forum in case I've forgotten something:

In Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana (Behistun , Bistoon) near Kermanshah, from more than 2500 years ago he calls Armenia: Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Accadian. Carved in stone. No possibility of doubt.

The only reason they give is because the Urartian kings used a Hurrian language for their inscriptions. It is not entirely true. Different writing systems have been used in that time. I'll talk about it when I find the time.The Yervanduni kings also used Greek for their inscriptions, does this mean the entire population of Armenia suddenly changed from Hurrians to Greeks? Bollocks. The people spoke Armenian all along. It has nothing to do with kingly inscriptions.

I personally think the complacency of some Armenian historians with the mythical Aryan/Indo European thing and their "rejection" of Urartu is because of our, how can I put it, "desire" to be Europeans which I firmly believe we are NOT. I mean look at a typical Armenian, do we look like Vikings? No way!Moreover, Aryan means Iranian. the Ir in Iran means Arya. The word Iran can mean Aryans or the land of Aryans. Basta.

There can be no question that the Armenian language and nation was formed on the Armenian highlands and nowhere else.If Armenians migrated from the Balkans then there MUST be some evidence to support this but there is none.I believe they will never be found in those areas and the whole Indo European/Aryan thing is just a myth.

I know you love your country that's why you so eagrly deny everything presented to you. You are even imposing your pre-conditioned thought on others, and nothing I say will ever change your stance on the issue.

ArmoArmeN

I think the one who doesn't want talk with facts and the one who imposes his pre-conditioned thoughts on others is you. Instead of talking and explaining you are starting to dispute stuff that does not fit this topic.

I studied Philology, I am a linguist (German). You can't take two completly different languages and insist that they are coming from the same root.

According to you hurrians are aryans. Then here comes the $ 1 000 000 question: how come they had two different languages?

Instead of going rounds please answer it. If you don't know the answer then let me know I won't be mad on you.

you got some points in your post but some of it doesn't make sense to me, sorry. How come urartians and hurrians left their inscriptions in hurrian langugae but they spoke armenian? Can you explain what you just said?

We know who were Yervandunis and we know who were the greeks. We can understand that part.

In my understanding there were aryans and hurrians living next to each other and at some point they got mixed and some of aryans went to east to today's iran afganistan then they went north and finally to the west.

Again that means there were two different nations with two different languages and one absorbed the other one. How did that happen who absorbed? Who got absorbed? Which nation was living there which one did move in?

I need facts!!!

P.S. Jews are semitic they came from north africa. Lookup semitic languages in wikipedia.

QUOTE(Hellektor @ Aug 10 2006, 05:50 PM)

My two cents worth to whom it may concern.

I am not a historian either, but I see where the problem comes from. I think the whole Zionist/Freemason/Bolshevik faggotery has derouted our brains from thinking clearly. We have to explain everything in terms of race. Let me tell you, I may be wrong but in my view the whole Aryan/Indo-European thing is pure baloney.

Aryan means Iranian plain and simple. Europeans are not Aryans. The whole Hitler crap was of the same caliber as the Sun Theory of Cacaturk. The language spoken in Armenia in the so-called Urartu period shares 80% of its vocabulary with Grabar and only 20% of its grammar. The same way today's Armenian shares 80% of Grabar vocabulary but 20% of its grammar, all percents approximate. Grammar changes faster than vocabulary.

The whole Bolshevik/Jewish scam to dissociate the Armenians from their ancestors and to equate the Armenians with the fake nations of the USSR including the bogus, fictitious "nation" the "Azeris", was to crush ancient nations using the pretext of International "brotherhood". The Georgians and the "Azeris" would smash Armenian churches and tell the party leaders they were getting rid of backward religious garbage, in essence destroying an old nation to justify their existence and "cure" their inferiority complex.

I believe the language that has served as the prototype for the so-called Indo-European group of languages has coexisted with the ancient form of our Armenian language. Relations with the so-called Indo-European peoples have influenced our language

I suggest you guys give the young historian Artak Movsissian's works a try. The guy is a walking encyclopedia and reads cuneiform like drinking water (if you see what I mean!).

And who says Jews know where they come from? Many think today's Jews are the leftovers of Khazars, hence, the affinity with the genocidal Turks. You don't believe the Bible cock and bull story of 5000 years of Jewish history, do you? In fact the Bible shows a great influence (read plagiarism) from Zoroastrianism which dates back 2500 to 3000 years MAX.

To cut a long story short: the people and the kings of the kingdom of Van (Biaina) were Armenians. They spoke Armenian and the inscriptions of the kings in Hurrian are irrelevant to the language spoken. In the same way, the Yervandunis have left inscriptions in Greek, does this mean the people also spoke Greek?

It's funny those who want to deny us our Urartu heritage say the mention of Armenia as Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Akkadian for the same country in Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana is irrelevant because the Kingdom of Urartu did not exist anymore (521 B.C.). But ironically this emphasizes that Armenia and Urartu were one and the same even more, otherwise, why would Darius mention Urartu when it had already "vanished"? You see how they fokk with our brains?

Also a research on Hayasa/Hayastan, Armani-Armanum/Armenia is not out of place. It cannot be accidental.

Armo has mentioned the kingdom of Aratta which dates back 4800 years at least. More voices consider Aratta and Ararat the same and now the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics" is in the trash can of history, people can research more freely.

It’s interesting how easily we give up our heritage (the same way some “Armenians” are OK with ceding land to “Azeris”) where the Turks who are nothing but savage, barbaric, nomadic, tent-dwelling, cattle-herder, Ural-Altaic, Mongolo-Tatar, Oghuz-Turkmen bandits claims the civilizations of Sumerians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Greeks, Persians, Aratta, Urartians, Elamites, Hitites, Hurries, Armenians, Medes, Kurds, Aghvank, Ionians, Phrygians, Scythians, Manni, Martians, Saturnans, Jupiterians, Out of Milkywayans, Parallel Universians, Out of this Universians, Pre Big Bangians, Residents of the Black Holes, etc., etc., etc.

_________________________________________________________________

I paste from another post of mine on another forum in case I've forgotten something:

In Darius's trilingual inscription in Baghastana (Behistun , Bistoon) near Kermanshah, from more than 2500 years ago he calls Armenia: Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Accadian. Carved in stone. No possibility of doubt.

The only reason they give is because the Urartian kings used a Hurrian language for their inscriptions. It is not entirely true. Different writing systems have been used in that time. I'll talk about it when I find the time.The Yervanduni kings also used Greek for their inscriptions, does this mean the entire population of Armenia suddenly changed from Hurrians to Greeks? Bollocks. The people spoke Armenian all along. It has nothing to do with kingly inscriptions.

I personally think the complacency of some Armenian historians with the mythical Aryan/Indo European thing and their "rejection" of Urartu is because of our, how can I put it, "desire" to be Europeans which I firmly believe we are NOT. I mean look at a typical Armenian, do we look like Vikings? No way!Moreover, Aryan means Iranian. the Ir in Iran means Arya. The word Iran can mean Aryans or the land of Aryans. Basta.

There can be no question that the Armenian language and nation was formed on the Armenian highlands and nowhere else.If Armenians migrated from the Balkans then there MUST be some evidence to support this but there is none.I believe they will never be found in those areas and the whole Indo European/Aryan thing is just a myth.

I studied Philology, I am a linguist (German). You can't take two completly different languages and insist that they are coming from the same root.

According to you hurrians are aryans. Then here comes the $ 1 000 000 question: how come they had two different languages?

Studying philology doesn't entitle someone to categorically state the people who lived in Armenia in the time of the kingdom of Van (Biaina) were not Armenians and then by some extraordinary, magical mutation they became Armenians.

I have explained this in my post above. Once more: people in Armenia in the period of kingdom of Van spoke Armenian and the language shares 80% of its vocabulary and 20% of its grammar with Grabar. The same way today's Armenian shares 80% of Grabar vocabulary but 20% of its grammar. Grammar changes faster than vocabulary.

If you have access to the Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, then check the relevant topic where concerning the Urartian language it states:

“of all the living languages, Armenian is the closest in terms of vocabulary”. It goes on to give examples of words that mean the same and sound similar in both languages.

Remember that it was the fascist Bolshevik state that denied the Armenians their heritage. In this light what the encyclopedia writes is quite daring.

Unlike a ridiculous Turkish study where “professor” Silahi (dickhead) Diker presents a list of words he claims to be the “Urartian glossary” and for every word he cites a Turkish/Persian/Arabic word that SOUNDS more or less similar (regardless of the meaning) and “concludes” the Urartian language to be originated from Turkish!

If I had to reason like this “scholar” I could take this whole text and find an Armenian word that remotely or otherwise sounds like every word in it and claim that English comes from Armenian. Isn’t this absurd?

The Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia also says there are theories that argue there is a super-language family that includes this language along with Indo-European, Semitic, Ural-Altaic, Caucasian and Dravidian subgroups.

Inaccurate theories are all we have and some are used for political reasons to “prove” that the indigenous Armenians are comers and the nomadic Turkish invaders were civilized people 9000000000000000000000000000000 eons before the Big Bang and that Urartu is in fact UralTurk. Then the “savage” Armenians came and killed the UralTurks, therefore, the Armenian Genocide was the revenge of Urartians... Pure, 24-carat Turkdung!

you got some points in your post but some of it doesn't make sense to me, sorry. How come urartians and hurrians left their inscriptions in hurrian langugae but they spoke armenian? Can you explain what you just said?

We know who were Yervandunis and we know who were the greeks. We can understand that part.

In my understanding there were aryans and hurrians living next to each other and at some point they got mixed and some of aryans went to east to today's iran afganistan then they went north and finally to the west.

Again that means there were two different nations with two different languages and one absorbed the other one. How did that happen who absorbed? Who got absorbed? Which nation was living there which one did move in? I need facts!!!

P.S. Jews are semitic they came from north africa. Lookup semitic languages in wikipedia.

It seems you didn't read my post. I'm pretty clear, in fact I don't quite get what you are trying to say. You still argue using the 20th century Zionist/Fascist/Western racial theories where, for political reasons, the "scholars" always cite crap like skull size, forhead length, shape of chin, nose, etc. as hard evidence to "measure" the intelligence of nations.

Once more I recommend from my heart to get your hands on the works of Artak Movsissian. He's an excellent young historian who knows a lot about the era and especially Armenia in 3000 B.C.

I don't know your age. You say you are a linguist, this means you are at least in your late 20s but you are constantly citing wiki as the word of god and frankly, wiki is the source teenagers always give because the lack of book knowledge. I have to admit, I am not into wikipedophilia, I'm kind of allergic to wiki (sorry QueBeCer), I know there's lot of great info on that website, but there's also the possibility for everyone to post any gabage. Just look at the "Azeri" vomit.

I simply don't buy this whole race shit. Therefore, I think our discussion will lead to nowhere.

In my opinion this is a question which needs a scientific approach. I am not a historian but I red alot. I am just trying to find answers to the questions in me. I need facts to be convinced otherwise it's going to sound a conspiracy to me.

Hellector I heard about Artak. I promise I will try to find his works and read. I usually research every topic from different points of view I mean I usually read what different sources say about the same issue. Recently I read Alexandr Varpetyan's "Ovqer en i Verjoy Ariaciner@" that's where this question came in me.

Do you think that just by reading Xorenaci's "Hayoc Patmutyun" is enough to know our history? I prefer to read other sources too to make my neutral opinion about the issue. Although I am very carefull to choose the source I mean I am not going to take some turkish bull shit as a source.

Hellector I am in my early 30's I do not lean on wiki I have red alot of books like you have said. I just reffered to wiki because some of the forum readers may not be able to find books that me and you used.

And I am not trying to start a conflict. I just need clear answers or your opinions (like shaunt or Eurocentric). I prefer any opinion with facts that would convince me:) And when I do not agree with your opinion please don't be mad. Different people different opinions...

Erebuni In Ruins?Maybe. As long as we insist using words like “patmasiroutyun/պատմասիրություն” instead of “patmasiroum”, forget that unnecessarily encumbering “utyun”. I would much rather use “hnagitoum/hnasiroum/archeophilia”.Although the inferences below allude to our Christian heritage, it also invokes ancient Egyptian heritage. How less intelligent are we than the modern Islamic Egyptians who pride themselves with all that pre-Islamic culture, and make zillions of dollars in the process?