All this gym leading nonsense is fine if you want to imitate the actions of lead climber, but if you want to develop the number one skill in lead climbing (JUDGEMENT) then get on real rock (preferably trad).

Lead climbing is primarily about assessing your situation and relative safety, not about fast clips and learning how to fall. The sooner you get on the sharp end (with an experienced climber to give you some feedback), the more comfortable you will become with lead climbing.

Do you think all the pioneers who established climbs at Arapiles and elsewhere were experts at lightning clips and lobbing onto their gear. NO! They were skilled at reading the rock, staying in control of their situation and backing off where appropriate.

If you live in Victoria, you have the best crag in the world (Arapiles) to learn to lead. And you can start lead climbing on your first weekend on rock. Get on routes well under grade 10 and start working your way through the classics.

On 25/07/2008 simey wrote:>All this gym leading nonsense is fine if you want to imitate the actions>of lead climber, but if you want to develop the number one skill in lead>climbing (JUDGEMENT) then get on real rock (preferably trad).

Oddly enough I agree with Simey and Stu. Might be more of an issue in the Blueys, but I reckon reading the rock and knowing what could go wrong are the most important leading skills, and definitely can't be learnt in the gym. Nor can jamming, but that's another issue altogether.

On 25/07/2008 simey wrote:>I agree with Stugang on this call.>>All this gym leading nonsense is fine if you want to imitate the actions>of lead climber, but if you want to develop the number one skill in lead>climbing (JUDGEMENT) then get on real rock (preferably trad).>>Lead climbing is primarily about assessing your situation and relative>safety, not about fast clips and learning how to fall. The sooner you get>on the sharp end (with an experienced climber to give you some feedback),>the more comfortable you will become with lead climbing.>>Do you think all the pioneers who established climbs at Arapiles and elsewhere>were experts at lightning clips and lobbing onto their gear. NO! They were>skilled at reading the rock, staying in control of their situation and>backing off where appropriate.>>If you live in Victoria, you have the best crag in the world (Arapiles)>to learn to lead. And you can start lead climbing on your first weekend>on rock. Get on routes well under grade 10 and start working your way through>the classics.>>>>>

I get to a climbing gym only once a decade or so but why would I want to put myself at risk by leading when I'm there? The risk/reward equation just doesn't add up (no comments from mathematical pedants please).

Well my 2c worth .. I agree with Simey's sentiments (I starting leading grade 8's, then built up from there) but still choose to lead climb at the gym as it is better training for your head.

And better training for your arms for that matter, 'cos I'm less likely to just 'slump' onto the rope when I'm leading. Instead, I'm more likely to try and fight it out to the next 'draw - or downclimb to the previous one 'cos I'm fundamentally a chicken when it comes to falling!

On 25/07/2008 simey wrote:>All this gym leading nonsense is fine if you want to imitate the actions>of lead climber, but if you want to develop the number one skill in lead>climbing (JUDGEMENT) then get on real rock (preferably trad).

Most people don't have the time to go outdoors as often as indoors. Leading indoors ingrains habits that would otherwise take much longer outdoors with less risk.

If the fall at Hard Rock had of taken outdoors then the injuries would have been much more severe especially with pro possibly popping out and the time that it would have taken for aid to arrive.

If you are confident when leading, clipping and foot placement becomes 2nd nature and one less thing you have to think about when your hanging off a real cliff.

As a disclaimer, I lead climb at the gym, (altho not so much these days with no gym in my current regional locale) basically cos it builds a bit of endurance and the falls and the extra bit of excitement are good fun.

But I said to a mate just recently that there isn't much to be gained from leading in the gym - i.e. if you're forced to TR all night cos you're with a noob or forgot your rope, you're not missing much.

But, I note two major exceptions:
1. if you're a real hard climber and want to do laps on the roof or other routes that have no toprope set up.
2. if you get off on being able to flash around your yellow lead card and impress noobs with your repeated spectacular lead falls on a grade 12.

And I reckon number 2 is probably the real reason we lead in gyms - c'mon, really, we're all pretentious twats....

On 25/07/2008 Paul wrote:>But some of us arn't lucky enough to live 5 minutes drive from Araps.

I didn't live 5 minutes from Araps when I learnt to climb (I lived on the Mornington Peninsula).

Climbing gyms didn't exist when I started either, but traversing bluestone walls is better training for trad climbing anyway. And it doesn't cost anything. The money you save by not visiting a climbing gym twice a week will be enough to live at Arapiles for a week if you know how to live cheaply.

But hey, why live the dream when you can work 5 days a week to pay for your indoor leading experience?

I did heaps of climbing in gyms when I lived in Melbourne, and I'm of the opinion that it was the worst thing for my climbing. Forget belaying, clipping leading etc etc yadda yadda yadda, it's all about using your feet.

At a gym, you look down and think "Oh, I'll stand on that blob there", on real rock you look downand think "Ohh, is it that one? No, maybe it's that other one. Oh, this one looks good".

On 25/07/2008 OzA wrote:
Leading indoors ingrains habits that would otherwise take much longer outdoors
with less risk.

You are no doubt right, but I don't think this is a good thing. Is it good to have the ingrained habit that each hold is going to be bomber (except the odd spinner as discussed), that all the gear is going to be good, that the bolts are safely spaced, that the route's not 2m longer than your rope... The point is that leading in the gym makes people think leading is safe and easy, and just a matter of swinging around and clipping bolts. Where in truth there are many many more ways to kill yourself outside you can never learn in a gym.

Also, gyms are far more dangerous than outdoors. I've left a gym in ambulance 3 times. And 90% (from the report released in 05) of climbing injuries happen in the gym, possibly because of this safe feeling.

On 25/07/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:>I did heaps of climbing in gyms when I lived in Melbourne, and I'm of the>opinion that it was the worst thing for my climbing. Forget belaying,>clipping leading etc etc yadda yadda yadda, it's all about using your feet.

Good point - in the last 6 months I've barely hit a gym but have jumped up a couple of grades for trad onsights. I attribute this to being outdoors heaps (doing a course on guiding climbs as well as my own recreational stuff), and doing lots of stuff around rock that wasn't necessarily challenging climbing (e.g. lots of gear placement in anchor set-ups, guiding and getting to know easy routes at Araps that require FOOTWORK).

Went back to the gym a couple of weeks ago for the first time in months, and felt like a weakling and couldn't get up stuff I used to cruise, despite climbing far better outdoors. The following week, went back to the gym again and decided to not think, just climb and crank hard...and got up more stuff but no doubt added little to my climbing ability.

On 25/07/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:>At a gym, you look down and think "Oh, I'll stand on that blob there"

In this case it was more a case of look down and think "Oh, I'll fall on that blob there".

Climbing is a body/mind thing. Plastic has a role in training the body parts and in some cases through replicating redpoint cruxes you can convince the mind something is possible for you. Beyond that leading indoors is of limited value.

What some of you don't realise is there are people out there (like me) who don't actually enjoy leading outdoors. I have panic attacks outdoors and don't really enjoy the experience.

I lead indoors though as I like to be able to try roof climbs that I would never get a chance to climb outdoors and that you cannot climb on top rope. I also find leading more of a challenge than top roping as you do have to use more endurance and you also have to position yourself in different ways to clip that you wouldn't do when just top roping.

To get back on track of this original thread though - I was at HR City when the second accident occurred. I believe what happened was the belayer got rope burn and let go of the rope. The climber was taken to hospital for observation but he didn't look like he was too badly hurt.

True but not true. If you want to climb in a gym - fine. But most of us find the gym merely a play thing or training for real rock. My local gym has top roped rooves but no lead walls at all - I have never lead in a gym at all and I see no need to in my circumstance.

On 25/07/2008 Tara wrote:

>I also find leading more of a challenge than top roping as you do have>to use more endurance and you also have to position yourself in different>ways to clip that you wouldn't do when just top roping.

I use more endurance by doing circuits on a difficult, steep wall on top rope rather than practicing momentary lock offs whilst clipping. And if you can boulder effectively, body positioning for clipping is an absolute walk in the park. Therefore I see no need for leading at the gym - except for people who have no desire to go outdoors at all but wish to experience being above their gear.

I guess this really is a case of different strokes for different folks. This argument really comes down to individual preference. As I said I see no need for lead climbs in a gym as it is clear the safety aspects far outweigh the benefits, but others clearly see otherwise - and fair enough.