It works if they set up some transparent rules that have good argumentation on how they are carried out.

At the moment it is just a mess. Europe is destroying itself by making it so easy to cross borders and gain advantages in other countries, while putting close to no effort in.

I am from NL and the whole migration thing is costing a shitload. I have always kept a clear mind on judging people from other countries, but when you are more involved with them in regards to work and every day life, it is just out of control.

Apparently there is more attention towards foreigners entering a country, than there is for the people that have been living there for generations.

There are mass people in NL going towards being poor and people being evicted, because they can not pay their mortgages on their houses or rent. However some of the best hotels and camping grounds are being filled with foreigners to give them a roof over their head. That's just sad.

Rules in a country should count for everyone and not provide any exceptions. If you want to live in a different country, why should the people living there adapt to the visiting culture? If I would live in another country, especially one of Islam or Arabic descent, do you think I get any privileges? Of course not.

And that's the whole problem and will destroy Europe some day. If your own people feels disadvantaged all the time towards foreigners, it will be a matter of time.

Funny example is the guy cloned posted, Geert Wilders. They set up a site to report problems regarding foreigners (Polish mainly) that are in the way or causing problems to Dutch working people that could cause harm to their financial/job security. And that actually ain't a bad initiative to go for, but the execution is a bit drastic. Because it is a simple fact that Polish workers will go below the rate a Dutch worker would do. Then take that money back to Poland, where that money is better than the average salary a worker in Poland earns.

That is just unfair and disadvantages our own workers, because they can not drop lower in price rates, because they have to support their family by the Dutch prices of food, drinks, rent etc. While the Polish workers locate themselves in cheap accommodations (with sometimes 8 to 10 people in one house) for temporary residence. Then move back to Poland when they achieved their money goal to spend it there.

There has to be more regulation regarding these things. It will blow up soon enough if the government doesn't involve themselves more and take a step forward for their own people, instead of trying to accommodate for their own gain (votes, bribes, job security in the future).

So I guess it has more angles you can look from. But at the moment it is getting ridiculous. Especially if you see a 18 year old foreigner riding around in a 50.000 euro Mercedes/BMW who is on well fare cheques. And I am saying this, because he is a friend of mine, so not making it up. The clue in this example is that the government is not even bothering to check up on how the hell he can afford that and still receive well fare. Cars are registered on the users name, so it is open information to view.

However another friend of mine works 40 hours a week for 1400 euro a month. He's 25 years old and saved 5 years to buy a 20.000 euro car (new) and a week later they informed him about a inspection on how he could afford such car with a 1400 euro salary. Get that? That is a prime example on why it is going to blow up, because local people and foreigners are going to grow hate towards each other, because of the unfairness of governmental laws and rules and the applying of them.

Conclusion: It will work if they apply the rules and policies to every single person and not make exceptions, just because it is a foreigner. They wanted to unite countries into Europe, but still not apply good foreign policies? It is funny how some countries take a clear statement towards foreigners and tell them to adapt or fuck off. Yet if some like NL would do that, we are a total disgrace and limit their freedom, because they can not feel like they did at home. Are you fucking serious?

Pretty normal in Netherlands, it is filled with Mercedes, BMW and Audi. In Belgium it's even worse (I work on the border), don't think you will come across a lot of cars below 25.000 euro driven by people with a decent salary :)

My car was 11.000 euro (at that time) and is considered budget. I bought it new for the 3 year warranty (which saved me 3000 euro already LOL nice quality?) and tax free driving. Which will be abolished again, because too many people wanted to drive tax free and bought those cars. Government missing that money now!

Depends on what times you go there. When I drive to my work and from my work, then you have those expensive cars going about since they are returning home as well.

If I make a picture of the garage below the apartment building I live in, I think the average price of the cars standing there is 30.000 euro at least. Some peak out to 60.000/70.000 and are BMW or Mercedes.

These are people with an average salary of 2500 to 3500 before taxes. After about 2400/2500.

Funny example is the guy cloned posted, Geert Wilders. They set up a site to report problems regarding foreigners (Polish mainly) that are in the way or causing problems to Dutch working people that could cause harm to their financial/job security. And that actually ain't a bad initiative to go for, but the execution is a bit drastic. Because it is a simple fact that Polish workers will go below the rate a Dutch worker would do. Then take that money back to Poland, where that money is better than the average salary a worker in Poland earns.

That is just unfair and disadvantages our own workers, because they can not drop lower in price rates, because they have to support their family by the Dutch prices of food, drinks, rent etc. While the Polish workers locate themselves in cheap accommodations (with sometimes 8 to 10 people in one house) for temporary residence. Then move back to Poland when they achieved their money goal to spend it there.

Yeah except for the fact the they do the job no-one else wants to do. For example every fucking year at asparagus harvest polish workers stay a couple of weeks in Germany and do the work because even unemployed Germans rather take the unemployment benefit then working there ass of 8 hours a day on the field for maybe 200-300 bucks more a month.

It's just the biggest lie ever that migrants take away jobs because you either learned something in school/uni/job and inherently are better educated than the uneducated migrant or you fucked up and either have to take the pill and work for less or go and beg on the streets :x.

However another friend of mine works 40 hours a week for 1400 euro a month. He's 25 years old and saved 5 years to buy a 20.000 euro car (new) and a week later they informed him about a inspection on how he could afford such car with a 1400 euro salary.

Well your friend is just dumb? Why does he need a 20k bucks car in the first place with that loan :O. That's just plain retarded. I mean it's no-one else's problem what he does with the money but he shouldn't complain about it later. Rather spend the money in further education and he might get more than 1400 bucks in the future -____-

He didn't loan it, he saved up to pay the 20.000 immediately. That is the funny part, that the taxes go after him, even if he paid the total amount by saving for 5 years.

And what you say about they do the jobs no one wants, that has two sides really. Sure there are jobs no one wants to do and they don't care and take them.

However if you look at the truck drivers recently, the Dutch truck drivers are bound by Dutch law and need to follow certain rules, like you can not drive 12 hours straight, you have to take a 15-30 minute break each few hours and have to stop driving after certain hours.

The foreign truck drivers (Poland, Ukraine, w/e) don't give a flying fuck about these rules and do it anyway. Companies rather let their stuff get transported by them then, because they are cheaper and they don't stop during the trip. There is no good inspection regarding this and Dutch truck companies are forced to close up, because they can't compete with that.

Any my point is about applying rules and law to every one in an equal way. This is an example of that not happening and creating unfair competition towards local (Dutch) employees.

I agree with you on the jobs no one wants to do, but there is also more jobs than just that you mentioned.

Please do not put Ukraine and Poland into the same box. As you hopefully now, we're in the EU and we're legally-binded by all regulations, for instance those concerning truck drivers.

Ukraine on the other hand is outside EU and is way behind with all the standards, but how on earth can Ukrainians be possibly allowed to work in Netherlands? They need Schengen-visas to even give you a visit.

Here's a thing about such discussions - they require experts, facts, reliable source of data, or else they mostly create tons of bullshit and lies, mostly based on stereotypes and wrong assumptions. As long as you're not entirely sure about things you want to say, keep it to yourself, unless you want to deliberately mislead us, bearing in mind that "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. ".

At the very end I shall mention that Poles went totally over the top with emigration to Netherlands, numbers raised from 44k to 150k in just few years time (according to Wikipedia), so after all I can understand the anger, but please do not fan this flame with lies :)

Just because you are legally bound to EU legislation, does not mean you will execute it correctly.

And sure you can say that is not a immigration problem, however every single year there is mass fines and imprisonment for illegal working at low wages and living with 10 to 12 people in one house illegally and perform unregistered labor.

You do not need to be an expert for this when you are confronted with this from your own working experience.

You can in no way even try to live with 10 to 12 Dutch registered people in one house, pay 500 euro rent, and get away with that.

But I am not trying to be anti-Poland or any country regarding these problems. There are quite some Polish people I know of that work according to Dutch legislation and they make a good living, just like any other. I oppose the fact that quite a lot of immigrants don't give a fuck about legislation and abuse the conditions they get when allowed to work here.

Did you write that yourself? Because it leaves out about 80 percent of any argument applicable to the Netherlands regarding the subject being described there.

A big rant about saying; maybe work harder for less pay as well. Let's not take standard of living into consideration, rather just rant on about local workers being lazy and doing less, but requiring more money.

I would like you to try and work for 500 euro a month in the Netherlands, then pay for a normal apartment/house, food, clothing, children, holiday, taxes, repairs w/e.

Oh look most basic expenses are double the ones of Poland. Dutch workers won't fucking make it if they worked for the same pay as Polish workers and not decrease their standard of living and gain immigration conditions provided by the government.

-> Which brings me to my main point: Even the playing field and apply the same rules and standards as any other. Right now this is not the case and people are growing hateful towards each other.

Even the playing field and apply the same rules and standards as any other. Right now this is not the case and people are growing hateful towards each other.

I think it's already happening through globalisation. If you get your product/service done where the factors of cost are the lowest you will over time increase life standards in this particular area. Costs of living will increase and so do the costs of production. This process will carry on until every country on this planet is being equalised.

But this process could also be achieved in a more coordinated social way i have no doubts on that (free market economy vs. social market economy).

But what will happen if these "playing fields" are being equalised? I think education will be the main factor to gain an edge in this compeditive market. And hopefully through education more and more people see how crucial it is to have money in order to generate even more of it.

No, it was just a short term ideal that never really worked for anyone but immigrants who came from shittier countries and had everything to gain and nothing to lose.

UK are becoming a lot stricter and taking powers back, people in Brussels just want to dilute the UK so europe becomes one super power of shit and they know the UK has too much identifty and influence so it aims to undermine that, combined that with the shitty labour GVT that installed so many liberal polices that contributed to this mess now and this is why we have the problems we do. As far as I am concerend this recession is a good thing, its gonna allow the UK to take stock of things and re-establish some rules. Germany and France are about to eat humble pie as much of europe starts to fold, while the UK told them their plans sucked from day one, but they HAVE to make it work, which is the only reason they are helping greece out, that will fail again, and then places like italy will be in trouble, and then the shit will hit the fan and it will have a knock on effect.

Luckily the Tories are back in charge and things are changing, but it will take a long time to undo the damage, not even sure its possible.

are you implying that everything the UK stands for, consists of, etc etc is 100% british power? the UK you're relying on is also made by immigrants (like in every other country).

the limits and capabilities are the same for every human.
just because mister uzbekistan is a fucking loser and has a goatfarm doesn't mean he impossibly could run your country in a way. why blaming them for taking chances and sniff civilization?

there is ofc human trash that comes with immigration, but they atleast could manage to get on the level of UK-trash.

so what is your solution? close the door for everyone who can't attend in some of your elitist university? how retarded and antihuman is that? are you saying that the genetic pool of the country is "fixed" now and therefor they need to close the borders? close population models or history so to say since everything is fine for the uk?

how should such a background check work? if someone is willing to work in the UK he will prolly take his whole family with him, and his kids WILL have even more problems raising up/to immigrate, because of the feeling to be not wanted you constantly inflame.

Only allow in skilled people, with no convinctions, and a decent chunk of money in the bank.

The way it is at the moment is a joke. And the kicker is we get told foreign workers are better, if they were better their country would show the benefits of their collective "bettrness" they are "better" because they have bigger incentives when here, often living a poorer quality of life (which they do not deem as poorer because poor in the UK is not poor to them) and sending money home to save, and then going back.

I tell you what, pay me several times more per hour than what I earn now, and I'll gladly move to timbucktoo for a year, work my ass off and live cheaply knowing within a few years I can go home with a pot of cash in the bank.

That's simply not possible for British people to do as we have higher initial standards and costs.

That's why foreigners may appear to be more eager, its just short term BS, if they had to fight for this country tomorrow to stay here most would fuckoff on the banana boat they came here on.

And its that attitude that ruins this country and infects other people to stop caring about it.

People on benefits should also do community service for 2-3 days a week if they do not find employment after 6 months.
Whoever they are.

you didn't respond to my thesis that a constant hostility/xenophobia against foreign workers and immigrants causes a lot of the hate you mention.

i doubt they are considered "better" workers, just cheaper.
your timbucktoo example makes no sense and is pretty sloppy in terms of empathy. since there doesn't have to be just much money there must be some like you said higher initial standard compared to britain and the uk has to be on the ropes with no future, aswell. i doubt the country would be called timbucktoo maybe india or japan w/e.

iam biased because if your mindset would have been applied on germany i wouldn't been born at all.
and be sure i'm all in for germany on a blitzkrieg on britain.

"you didn't respond to my thesis that a constant hostility/xenophobia against foreign workers and immigrants causes a lot of the hate you mention."

Because its BS, Britain is the MOST liberal country in the world (why do you think they all come here), and if we say we do not like something, we are branded racists, which is just a political tactic all minorities use.

Its bullshit. immigration has damaged the UK immensely. luckily, that realisation is now being turned around slowly.

"allowing people of different cultural backgrounds live to side by side without integrating"

who said it can work without integration?

conclusion is to not allow them? is that what you get out of this?

"According to a recent survey, more than 30% of Germans believed that their country was "overrun by foreigners"."

with all the propaganda trumpets by complete moronic mostly nonpoliticians (mainly anti-islamistic), a still pretty active rightwinged scene/regions and the extreme pedantic and egocentric nature of germans i wonder that it was just 30%.
( aswell something like illegal employment of germans all the time is fine, while blaming the foreigners)

there are tons of recent and not so recent comments of the chancellor and others having a more optimistic position.

also, if you call a survey of some human magnets a statistic i can't help you anymore.

That's pretty much what multiculturalism is, if there was integration it would be mono-culturalism because there would be a single culture that's constantly evolving, changing and growing.

The whole point of multiculturalism was that any cultural could exist and survive independently while surrounded by other cultures, i.e. without integrating. The hope was that it would create a diverse and vibrant society while allowing politicians to avoid making tough decisions.

Canada is a really good example because although the English and French areas share a lot of history and culture anyway they are still quite separate and exist as independent cultures from one another.

Compare that to the USA where they had lots of immigrants but they largely all merged into one culture ('the melting pot').

Multiculturalism is basically how the world has developed throughout history though, right? We see the same antagonism between two countries as we do two cultures inside one country. That's why the whole idea was silly.

jamerio, you're here like the foreigner in britain. someone didn't like you back then and it's constantly pushing and whatever. EVEN YOU developed an anti-esr-people mentality and you're running against walls by users all the time.

you are the reason people here hate a lot and have a "bad time". most of them think esr would be a better place without you.please leave the esr-land, is like your own solution, so you seem to project it on the problems of your country.

i'm extremely white polish/german and didn't immigrate, nor had i any problems with that or discussed it. nor did i have bad experience with russians, poles, chinese or blacks (actually havent seen a black like 6months)

this random bullshit. i am polish, yes i like to rob people. yes, iam german and i want the world to be mine. my statement that iam german/prussian totally blows your countryblabla, since a few years ago they were one and the genetics havent changed...

.. if someone at the german border fucks with someone of the polish border, their kid is gonna be a stealing nazi or what? didn't you claim you were smart or something?how retarded. education and the circumstances of growing up does all the job. if some turk grows up in london, hey jamerio, he's another fucking brit.

again i never broadly attentioned that i'm actually 50/50. noone ever cared, i don't care, it doesn't get mentioned in any of my papers (even the etc)
if you want to make this the key of this discussion, i feel free to come at you and punch your little face my friend, since i'm aswell from the former gdr and that makes me want to tune down your oppinion in a harsh way.

you're just turning racial since you really seem to realise that noone likes you here, just like you don't like mustaffa in your hometown or whatever and are ashamed to see the circle and the projection.

I'm coping fine, I'm simply saying most people in the Uk want a change towards immigration. I have polls to backup my opinion. You're just another disagreeing inferior gamer on a website I upset implying I don't get something when I clearly do.

"The website of the Daily Mail saw its traffic reach almost 100 million unique users in January, after recording a 17.8 per cent increase on December's figure, according to the latest results from the Audit Bureau of Circulation."

this is why I know you can't possibly have >100 IQ because average people are capable of grasping this concept. I don't claim anything regarding the truthfulness of the statement, I'm just asking for a more credible source. hint - conservative pamphlets are not credible sources.

The left or middle would probably not publish such a statistic even if it were know to them as being true, anymore than a PG film would show sex or violence. Its not what they discuss.

Your reasoning is flawed, and your attempt to undermine my IQ based on your own flawed reasoning (which I just highlighted beautifully for everyone to see) is not going to help your cause.

Only strenghten mine.

The daily mail is perceived as right wing becuase it has the balls to go up against the liberal cancer of calling people racist for pointing out alarming trends that come with religion or migration, which those minorities use to gain social standing.

A newspaper article is and will never be a credible source. If you actually had had a proper education then you would have known this in the first place. But as is you clearly show your ignorance and dullness but now we know where your racism comes from. No proper education and reading the sun :D

Its a statistic from the police. All the daily mail did was do a graph for it and report a story from that graph which is just pulling data that was provided to them BY<<< the police.

"From September 2010 to August 31 last year, the Met proceeded against 195,714 alleged criminals. Of those, 46,588 were foreign nationals – or 24 per cent of the total. The remaining 149,126 individuals were British."

Its not practical to provide the absolute source for everything given I would have to obtain a freedom of information request off the police which would take months. This is not data they provide by default.

The daily mail is a well estalished paper, its not going to make up random stats and allow itself to be ripped apart by a million lefties out there by LYING about something so petty and easy (by journo standards) to disprove as a statistic from the MET.

You can pretty much deny anything by requesting the source as most things are reported by a third party, if you want to hang on that then be my guest. Enjoy your paranoid life in your bedroom, safely tucked behind your keyboard and firewall.

The bottom line is the Daily Mail has a greater chance of being right than you or anyone here arguing otherwise.

I accept what i said is not 100% proof, but few things are, what matters is I'm confident a multi million dollar news paper/empoire is more liekly to be telling the truth than a few argumentative nobodies like you.

again, brainiac, i can't see oppinions of people as a fact. try again, show me that your country would even be at least competitive without foreigners, let alone the whole "prime" that joins england to go to your universitys.

Surprisingly i do too, tho prob not the same reason as you. My old neighbourhood in London is pretty much Russian/Polish etc as are most of the stops, even in this quiet Suffolk town i live in we have loads that works at the hospital/old folks home. Even a few 'polish' shops have opened up.

Tho i rarely see you talk about eastern europeans and go on about blackie instead when theirs far more of them coming in, tho i dont think we should let Africans in, cant stand them being half west indian, when i was a kid most of the black community were west indian now its african who even tho you dont understand this are very different to us.

What I've never understood is -how- do extreme muslims get to immigrate? Being an extreme muslim in an extreme muslm country isn't a sufficient condition for a refugee, you need to be persecuted against. Someone elaborate.

Multiculturalism works, if you're skilled labour or hot exchange student, humanitarian immigration in other hand is terribly inefficient policy regardless of personal ethics. Open borders for workers and investments on-site rather than mindless transportation of lucky few imo.

Nice video but the thruth is that the west doesn't give a shit about these cuntries because to be honest no-one wants to lower is current life style. Imagine all these people actually had a safe workplace particularly speaking about mine workers, health ensurence blabla. Guess how many spoiled kids couldn't get the new iphone compared to now.

Gotta love those hipster hippy fags in my class talking about how unfair the world is blabla but in the end everyone of those shitheads is running around with the newest apple generation and wearing H&M because hey it's soooooo cheap.
Double standards at its best.

@topic
Immigration is somehow necessary. German birthrate dwindles and the population is growing older and older. I'm aware of the problems and there always will be problems when different cultures collide. From my own experience I can tell that I have seen both sides. Half of my senior year consisted of people with an immigration background whether it be eastern Europeans (Russian, Polish, Kazakh etc) or Turkish ones and there haven't been any problems whatsoever. Otherwise we had some problematic zones in our city created by migrants and going their at night wasn't the best idea one could have. Especially Germany missed it to integrate those waves of migrants in the 70s/80s and now we have to deal with the bad politics in the past. Doesn't suprise me when I see the current :D.

"Sweatjob" labour also to my knowledge refuses workplace safety measures and insurance in some instances, because the workers rather take that amount as extra income if given the choice.

Then again buying apple and h&m products inject more money to foreign economies (china and turkey iirc) instead us just circling money around. We could easily raise the demand of foreign products if we just disbanded some of our retarded customs and subsidies policies in the eu, especially agriculture. It's even iffier reality for those without assembly line job, collecting scrap metal or prostituting.

The point is that we are given a tall order, I do think countries like Sweden are far away from being noncaring assholes, but how on earth do they make any change if over three times the population of nordic countries -adds- to the problem annually? It's just a mathematical impossibility. There is not enough resources on this planet to give everybody 5 global hectares living stardard.

even when it comes to publishing statistics, there are an array of tricks newspapers can use to distort them without changing a single number, like omitting part of the statistics, comparing them with apparently related statistics, slightly altering the headline or titles, etc...

edit: should I really need to be telling you this? you must surely be aware that even 'official statistics' from the police, especially about immigration (a highly political matter, with as you said, about 3/4 of the population demanding a stop/reduction in immigration), can be distorted primarily by politicians and secondarily by the whole 'target-meeting' policy implemented in government services such as police force and national health.

I doubt the daily mail made the stats up becuase they would have no access to such data, not to mention there are plenty of left wing publications who would crucify them, daily mail have been right about a LOT of things from immigration to the euro, we just live in times where sadly if you do not agree with everything you get labelled right wing or a racist. Most people are weak minded.

well, my opinion is that we live in times where sadly you can't trust one word the mass media has to say, and by that I mean no exceptions. if you want the truth, you have to dig deeper than the likes of the daily mail.

I doubt this paper would discredit themselves by lying about a statistic they got from the MET that anyone could obtain with a freedom of information act from the police. This is not news of the world.

If you're going to lie to people, you might aswell keep it for something big, why would they ruin themselves for something so meaningless?

It would be like holding up corner shop that you knew only had 10 dollars in the till, the payback if caught would be a 1000 times worse than any pay off they got from publishing that story and statistic.

Europe and American mean totally different things by "multiculturalism".

Multiculturalism in the USA inevitably invokes the melting pot analogy. Groups of immigrants from different cultures in one country blending together, sometimes under intense pressure. (For instance, an area in Manhattan named "Hell's Kitchen".)

First generation immigrants typically begin less educated and with fewer opportunities, but send their kids to public school. Those kids then grow up American. Perhaps with a different native language inside the home, be it Portuguese, Chinese, etc.

Europe (or at least the UK, Germany, and The Netherlands) seem to mean something closer to "separate cultures coexisting independently from each other in the same country". This is an idealization that never really existed in practice.

While US immigration policy is in need of some updating (in particular: a path to citizenship for non-citizen minors raised in the country), Europe needs to learn that integration and assimilation do not happen overnight; it takes a few generations and requires society to provide opportunities.