"I suspect Chieftain doesn't want to be drawn into a potential political conversation, " ---- ^ Are you serious? Have you been to the Chieftain's other long threads, where the kewl kids hang out at on this forum? They talk politics all the time are never moderated or banned... Surely, you tickle our sense of humor. Lol..

^..Hey, if the Chieftain doesn't like my question, he can always try 'body-slamming' me. Apparently, that's a thing now....in the good 'ole US of A... *So much for "Free Speech", and "Freedom of the Press". Just please... try not to beak my new glasses, Chief...

Spoiler

The_Chieftain, on May 22 2017 - 09:35, said:

Not really my position to say if it was worth it or not, as that implies a cost/benefit calculation. The Iraqis I interacted with seemed pretty solid people, worried more about their childrens' futures, or getting a good price for vegetables down the local market, and trying to enjoy life, than worrying about who was running the country. To that end, I think they were better off for our excursion than not. Of course, that is before one considers the folks in Mosul, where I spent six weeks, who have been having a rather lousy time of it the last couple of years, but the causes for that are somewhat un-related. Is that future worth a year of my life, and all the associated dollar and blood costs that have been drained from the US? Who's to say?

Chief... I meant, was this war worth it for you..?

Again, setting all the politics and "duty" aside, I think as an individual you are allowed to speak your mind and stand a position on this subject. And more importantly, you are certainly allowed to build, shape, and express your own personal opinions about such questions. It's a healthy thing to do in a free society.

Consequently, and as I stated earlier in this thread, it is going to be interesting to see and learn what future historians, leaders, and academics will say and write about this current war decades from now. Will they compare it to the War in Vietnam...? ...and say it was all for nothing..? Will they say it was a "just" war..? Or, "just" a terrible waste of human lives and resources.

I guess only time will tell. In the meantime, let me ask you another question:

*If the primary objective of war is to win....then do you think we won this war..?

*If the primary objective of war is to win....then do you think we won this war..?

Spoiler

The_Chieftain, on May 22 2017 - 09:35, said:

Not really my position to say if it was worth it or not, as that implies a cost/benefit calculation. The Iraqis I interacted with seemed pretty solid people, worried more about their childrens' futures, or getting a good price for vegetables down the local market, and trying to enjoy life, than worrying about who was running the country. To that end, I think they were better off for our excursion than not. Of course, that is before one considers the folks in Mosul, where I spent six weeks, who have been having a rather lousy time of it the last couple of years, but the causes for that are somewhat un-related. Is that future worth a year of my life, and all the associated dollar and blood costs that have been drained from the US? Who's to say?

Chief... I meant, was this war worth it for you..?

Again, setting all the politics and "duty" aside, I think as an individual you are allowed to speak your mind and stand a position on this subject. And more importantly, you are certainly allowed to build, shape, and express your own personal opinions about such questions. It's a healthy thing to do in a free society.

Consequently, and as I stated earlier in this thread, it is going to be interesting to see and learn what future historians, leaders, and academics will say and write about this current war decades from now. Will they compare it to the War in Vietnam...? ...and say it was all for nothing..? Will they say it was a "just" war..? Or, "just" a terrible waste of human lives and resources.

I guess only time will tell. In the meantime, let me ask you another question:

*If the primary objective of war is to win....then do you think we won this war..?

First the truck blew up, then lots happened. Note the Bradley to the left, the tank and HMMWV are facing opposite directions, and for good measure, one of the Kiowas in the background was forced down. I saw almost none of it. I spent much of the engagement saying "I can't see anything to shoot at!"

Thats kind of weird. I'd always read all those tasty expositions of how tanks have night vision, ir, can follow lasers or sniper fire back to their point with automating systems, etc, like they're some futuristic terminator.

Not the troops, the government. The troops are doing what they were indoctrinated to do. Granted it does not justify the actions of a few [edited], but for most the fault lies on governments and not the troops.

The Germans actually had fewer tanks the France at the start of the war. Their primary infantry rifle for whole war was a bolt action. They did have a great squad machine gun. What made the German Army so deadly in the early days of the war was how they used the equipment they had and the training that went into their men. By the end of the war training was minimal and the results were they lost.

So Chieftain. I found it actually somewhat amusing about your experience about tanks being blind. I find the idea of "huh... well that's strange... wait a second... I'm being shot at!" kind of funny. Obviously it is not intended to be funny as it is an engagement where people can die; so I apologize if you take offence to it. Do you have any other stories about situations where tanks were blind? Hearing details of these events would be interesting.

Ok, Chief...so how much longer do you think it will take before we see that final answer..? 5 more years..? 10 more years..? 15 maybe..? Possibly never..?

*In the meantime {and while we wait}, have you watched the new movie War Machine yet..? It's a film about our current War in Afghanistan {Iraq-istan}, and it's currently running on netflix right now. Honestly, I see a lot of parallels between your opening post, and this film. So, if you haven't watched it yet, then I highly recommend you do. It is a must-see!

Spoiler

Again, I think this film is both hilariously funny... ...while being disturbingly 'spot on' at the same time...

1st time I was shot at was in a "police action" at a small Caribbean Island. HMM-264 The Black Knights rock! We dropped an 8 man team of SEALS at the GovGen's house (2 dual 23mm aa gun mounts, 2 57mm single mounts & various 12.7mm singles) and the only thing that hit us was 20-25 rounds from a 12.7mm. We were in a CH-46 (1 m60--crew chief; 1 m2--port side, 1 m60 on rear ramp). Picture of the bird was in Time magazine sitting on the beach after the hard landing because a SINGLE 12.7mm went through one of the turbines and damaged the hydrolic (spelling?) system. Blew out both my knees (major lig & cart damage).

My first thought when we came in range was how cool the green glowing golf balls looked as they floated up towards us...until I realized they were tracers and there were 4 more rounds for each golf ball...oh, we had "flack jackets" but didn't wear them, we stood on them. We were taught that we didn't want ground fire to come up between our legs and get trapped and bounce around inside...

1st time I was shot at was in a "police action" at a small Caribbean Island....

Looks like it was a nice beach.

^..Looks familiar. Grenada..?

OrnmiIler, on Aug 02 2017 - 18:31, said:

+1

We gain wisdom through the experience of knowing countless mistakes in our common humanities past, never from just learning from our own.

Good luck!

^..That was sarcasm, wasn't it....

The_Chieftain, on Jun 24 2017 - 13:03, said:

Iron Soul Stealer

Spoiler

Hey Chief, are you still out there..?

Like I was asking earlier,

*If the primary objective of war is to win....then do you think we won this war..?

Spoiler

The_Chieftain, on May 22 2017 - 09:35, said:

Not really my position to say if it was worth it or not, as that implies a cost/benefit calculation. The Iraqis I interacted with seemed pretty solid people, worried more about their childrens' futures, or getting a good price for vegetables down the local market, and trying to enjoy life, than worrying about who was running the country. To that end, I think they were better off for our excursion than not. Of course, that is before one considers the folks in Mosul, where I spent six weeks, who have been having a rather lousy time of it the last couple of years, but the causes for that are somewhat un-related. Is that future worth a year of my life, and all the associated dollar and blood costs that have been drained from the US? Who's to say?

Chief... I meant, was this war worth it for you..?

Again, setting all the politics and "duty" aside, I think as an individual you are allowed to speak your mind and stand a position on this subject. And more importantly, you are certainly allowed to build, shape, and express your own personal opinions about such questions. It's a healthy thing to do in a free society.

Consequently, and as I stated earlier in this thread, it is going to be interesting to see and learn what future historians, leaders, and academics will say and write about this current war decades from now. Will they compare it to the War in Vietnam...? ...and say it was all for nothing..? Will they say it was a "just" war..? Or, "just" a terrible waste of human lives and resources.

I guess only time will tell. In the meantime, let me ask you another question:

*If the primary objective of war is to win....then do you think we won this war..?

1st time I was shot at was in a "police action" at a small Caribbean Island. HMM-264 The Black Knights rock! We dropped an 8 man team of SEALS at the GovGen's house (2 dual 23mm aa gun mounts, 2 57mm single mounts & various 12.7mm singles) and the only thing that hit us was 20-25 rounds from a 12.7mm. We were in a CH-46 (1 m60--crew chief; 1 m2--port side, 1 m60 on rear ramp). Picture of the bird was in Time magazine sitting on the beach after the hard landing because a SINGLE 12.7mm went through one of the turbines and damaged the hydrolic (spelling?) system. Blew out both my knees (major lig & cart damage).

My first thought when we came in range was how cool the green glowing golf balls looked as they floated up towards us...until I realized they were tracers and there were 4 more rounds for each golf ball...oh, we had "flack jackets" but didn't wear them, we stood on them. We were taught that we didn't want ground fire to come up between our legs and get trapped and bounce around inside...

*However, as I wait, and as I watch the terrible news continue to unfold, it's really not looking good for us over there. Maybe it's time to pull out, and cut our losses...before it's too late. 2019 is coming. We still have time...