Sharks take their case to Twitter after a bad day at the bargaining table for NHL and NHLPA

Frankly, nobody should have expected smooth sailing to the photo op where Gary Bettman and Donald Fehr clasp each other on the shoulder, shake hands and call whatever new CBA finally emerges a win-win.

Wasn’t going to happen.

Still, there has to be disappointment after today’s exchange between the NHL and NHLPA. What could have been a starting point turns out to be yet another point of contention.

Advertisement

The NHLPA studied the NHL’s latest proposal for 48 hours and came back with three alternatives of its own. We’ll let Gary Bettman take it from there.

“It’s clear we’re not speaking the same language,: said Bettman, adding “I wish I had better news.”

NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr waited a couple more hours before saying: “Today is not a good day. It should have been, but it wasn’t.”

He then talked about the union’s three alternatives. Most of his response involved mind-numbing numbers, but he boiled the third one down to a simnple “we agree to 50-50, you agree to honor every penny of existing contracts.”

Turns out the two sides can’t even agree on the math involved as the NHL’s Bill Daly later responded that Fehr’s supposed 50-50 split actually keeps the players’ share at 56 or 57 percent.

“In effect,” Daly said, “the Union is proposing to change the accounting rules to be able to say ‘50-50,’ when in reality it is not. The Union told us that they had not yet ‘run the numbers.’ We did.”

There’s still time for an agreement by Oct. 25 that would get the season started Nov. 2. There’s still the very real possibility that an abbreviated season could start after that. For now, though, it’s less than encouraging.

It’s also reached the point where players are using their Twitter accounts to express their thoughts on the matter.

“Players will take the leagues 50/50 split,” said Ryane Clowe (@ryaneclowe29) in a series of Tweets . “All we want is to honor contacts already negotiated and signed. Players took two days to review NHL proposal and Bettman/owners take 10 minutes to review 3 of our legit proposals today.

Advertisement

“Bettman/Owners have a date when they want hockey to be played again,” Clowe continued, “and until then fans and players have to wait and listen to there web of BS.”

Then he gave himself a little wiggle room in his relationship With Sharks ownership.

“When I reference owners in my tweets it’s referring to 6-8 owners,” Clowe added later, a reference to the belief that it’s the hardline ownership (presumably NOT San Jose) that’s steering things.

For what it’s worth, Clowe has tried to be one of the more optimistic Sharks I’ve talked to since all this began. We chatted Tuesday and he repeated his belief that owners of hockey teams are too smart to lose an entire season once again.

Clowe wasn’t the only Shark on Twitter as Logan Couture weighed in from Switzerland:

“For people hating on the players saying take 50/50 it’s fair…We offered that, as long as current contracts are honored. Fair. Gary says no.”

*****You can stop here if you’ve been following my day on Twitter as this’ll get a little redundant.

But while it’s clear that Fehr won the first round of the PR battle before the lockout began by offering to have players continue to work under the expired CBA, it’s equally clear that Bettman has won the second round with his 50-50 split. And it’s probably no accident that this victory (hollow as it may be) comes one day after word got out the owners turned to GOP spinmeister Frank Luntz for advice.

Anyone who looks beyond the 50-50 split can find a lot of things for the players to dislike in this latest offer, but a lot of fans — understandably — don’t go deeper than that.

Which is one reason why ultimately, the PR war is irrelevant. Rightly or wrongly, I don’t expect either side to cave because of fan pressure. Just not the way these things work.

David Pollak

David Pollak has been following the NHL forever and at the Mercury News as an editor or reporter since 1987. For almost a decade he wrote about the Sharks as the paper's Fan in the Stands before joining the sports department in 2001. He became the Sharks beat writer before the 2007-08 season and began this blog at that time. You can also follow him on Twitter at @PollakOnSharks.

I don’t understand the owners’ logic. Well, we signed these contracts (which take 2 to sign, by the way), but we don’t want to honor them and want you to take less money for the same deal? That wouldn’t be acceptable behavior in any other industry; you’d be laughed out of the room.

diskprotek

Someone should explain to Clowe that 50% of zero is zero. The players can whine all they like about “fair”, but they will make nothing when they don’t play.

bs

Yup Frank Luntz is the kind of lipstick on pigs. Fans must NOT buy it!

sharkz

Rainer, the owners are not suggesting they won’t honor the contacts. This is simply a function of that particular offer on the table. If they want 50/50, then the dollars above 50/50 from existing contacts won’t be a part of that offer.

I’m not in the players camp or the owners camp. I’m in the fan’s camp. But the rhetoric going on is nauseating. And that’s coming from both sides and the fans.

Clay

From what I read today, it’s all about the different CBAs and the HRR Rainer. the contract the players put forth makes them all paid differently, new contracts would get more HRR, older ones less. The owners want to roll back THAT part of them so all players are paid on an even playing scale. This is what I’m understanding.

Daly said it’s most likely 56-57% in the first year by the way the contract is set up..not 50-50 which is why they said no. I think the players are trying to get their money either way. The NHL ppl are business ppl, they aren’t dumb. These millionaires should just be thankful the owners of their businesses share anything. Where I work just gives me a simple paycheck, I dont’ get any of what they earn. If I were an owner I wouldn’t want to give up WHAT I OWN. Players don’t deserve it as they are technically EMPLOYEES. But neither to NFL/NBA players in my opinion.

With all of the billions to be made, the players should just partner with the Fehr brothers and start their own new pro hockey League.

That way, they make all of the money.

Never have another lockout.

sj10

isn’t it funny how the players always claim all the owners are crooks, EXCEPT THEIR OWNER.

Parise does the same thing as Clowe.

“Zach Parise is mad at owners but doesn’t single out Craig Leipold”

even though Leipold is one of the 3 biggest hard liners behind this lockout.

Parise and Clowe are phony cowards if they won’t call out THEIR OWN OWNER. it just shows that this whole thing is pr from both sides, and more like little kids arguing on a playground, except it is a $3 billion playground built with fan’s money.

Buddy Elf

It amazes me how some stupid people in the comments from the last few posts have fallen for the 50-50 thing without being willing to look any further.

And these people probably vote the same way… “Oh, that ad told me that… It must be true!”

Donkeys.

sharkz

Fans don’t need to understand numbers to be able to smell the stench in the air.

Teejay

Look for Clowe to be on the trading block if/when hockey is ever played again.

Teejay

DP: You’re right on when you say “don’t look for owners or players to cave to fan pressure”. Proof positive that neither side gives a tinkers damn about the fans.

Southlake

If a player turned to the owner and said “I refuse to play until you increase my salary 25%. I know that I happily signed my contract, but I’ve changed my mind and now I want more” He’d be in breach of contract and forced to honor what he agreed to. Why isn’t it the same for the owners? Yes, the players’ share needs to go down, and should be 50%, but I can’t fault the players for wanting to keep the money they’ve been promised and that they’re counting on. Especially for these guys that have had their contracts for 3 years or more- they’re now going to forfeit their hard earned salary because their owners are overpaying the new guys. Freeze the cap until it comes down to 50%, make concessions where needed, whatever. Just pay what you’ve already agreed.

Unfortunately, it isn’t that easy. Owners want an IMMEDIATE reduction in salary. Players refuse to give up what they’ve already been promised. Despite all the talk of contract terms, etc, the entire CBA hinges on this central conflict. Someone is going to have to give. Whoever has the most to lose from a lost season will cave eventually. Or we’ll miss the entire season and then all bets are off.

Garlicbulb

Well lets do 50/50 and void all the contracts. Everybody goes UFA

Paddy

50% of the pie…and the puck head players are balking!?!?!? Hockey players are supposed to be smarter than the NBA (National Bonehead Association) players!!!! Even the Boneheads realized that the elite players will make 30 million, and the Rooks will have a minimum of 450k…and a substantial retirement!!! Get the PUCK out and realize you are WAY OVERPAYED AND Sign the deal……you PUCKHEADS!!!!,

Just a bunch of greedy folks!! I’m so tired of hearing all of this whah whah!! At this point the fan base would be smart to shun this sport once they get back to work, cuz if they don’t have asses in seats than neither side will have any money to be pissing and moaning over! Maybe next time they will think twice about their greed!!

player supporters can’t seem to understand that those who criticize the players are not on the owners side. We all know that the owners locked out the players, we all know that the owners are greedy, and have been since the league was formed. we all know that some of the takebacks are unfair from a you-signed-it perspective.

BUT, the fans are the real owners of the league, the fans pay all the bills, all the profits, and all the salaries, and the fans, the real owners of the NHL, have one thing on their minds. PLAY HOCKEY !!!

so, when either side balks at playing hockey, when the billionaires finally budge a little, but the millionaire players won’t, and a full 82 game season goes down the drain, then, yes, the fans who own the game will be rightfully pissed off.

sj10

one little bit of hopeful news———

Buzz: The NHL Is Only Planning To Cancel Games Through November 1
October 19th, 2012 12:59 pm
According to Darren Dreger, the NHL is only planning to cancel games through November 1 and still hopes to have a resolution and start the season on November 2.

sj10

this is from the Cotsonika column today. very revealing. and it really shows what an idiot Fehr is, as Fehr readily admits he did not even run the numbers to see what HIS proposal would cost.————–

==================================

The players’ third proposal sounded reasonable. They would split HRR 50/50, as long as the owners honored contracts they’ve already signed. Who doesn’t think that’s fair? Who doesn’t think the owners should live up to their word? But remember, the players signed those contracts in an escrow system, knowing they might not see every dollar. They could have proposed a cap on escrow. They didn’t. They proposed some money be set aside, with the rest split 50/50. The NHL says it is not nearly as good as it looks.
[More: The NHL reveals its full CBA proposal]
“It is not a 50/50 deal,” deputy commissioner Bill Daly said in a statement. “It is, most likely a 56- to 57-percent deal in Year 1 and never gets to 50 percent during the proposed five-year term of the agreement. The proposal contemplates paying the players approximately $650 million outside of the players’ share. In effect, the union is proposing to change the accounting rules to be able to say ’50/50,’ when in reality it is not. The union told us that they had not yet ‘run the numbers.’ We did.”
That last part is a shot, sure. But the union told the public the same thing. Fehr said the players had just come up with the idea.
“We haven’t been able to run the numbers yet,” Fehr said.
Really? What the heck has the union been doing since Sept. 12, the last time it made a proposal? The leaders haven’t run the numbers yet on their best-sounding offer so far? What do the rank and file think about that? Did the rank and file press the leadership to make that proposal during that last-minute conference call Thursday? Is that why the negotiating session was delayed?
Enough. Enough of the games. Enough of the too-smart solutions and strategies. Enough of the history lectures and economics lessons. Enough of the grudges and the greed.
Owners, get back to the table and find more in the players’ proposals you can adopt. Players, get off your high horses and find a way to give the owners more of what they want without compromising your principles.
Ask yourselves how much is enough, because the rest of us, we already know.

==================================

JB

20 – and Fehr is the only problem? Why not include Cotsonika’s quote: “If you’re the NHL, you don’t reject three proposals in minutes and go home in a huff.” The league didn’t crunch numbers on three proposals in just minutes.

Andy

If anyone is interested Jeremy Jacobs the Bruins owner and owner of Delaware North Companies, has both a twitter and facebook account.

sj10

they certainly did crunch the numbers. can’t you read?? they said that it would pay the players an additional $650 million bucks outside of the players share.

JB

Sadly all you can do is read but cannot think apparently. The NHL rejected those counterproposals out of hand simply because they were counterproposals, not unconditional surrender to the league’s proposal. That’s why it took only minutes. If the league was even remotely serious in considering any of those proposals, the math and details would have been checked and rechecked for anything missed or any gotchas. That takes a lot more time than a few minutes.
And my original question was ignored so I’ll answer it even though it’s obvious; the passage from the same author in the same piece was ignored because it didn’t support the point you hoped to make. Your “contribution” here (copying others’ work and otherwise) is as slanted and sloppy as ever.

sj10

you are beyond dumb. Fehr himself said he did not run the numbers on his OWN proposal. That is the story here, and you are incapable of facing it.

Bill

Instead of revenue sharing, which should be only granted if the NHL was a true corporation and the players were actual shareholders, players should only be concerned with the amount of money extended to them via a contract. With revenue sharing formulas, rising costs are passed along to fans and advertisers, and contracts balloon to eye-popping amounts. Look at the contracts extended to players in baseball. $12,000,000 per season is quickly becoming the norm. Really! How stupid is that. The NHL is not the gorilla in the room when it comes to pro sports. These lockouts and strikes are farcical as millionaire players argue with their millionaire owners using labor terms that should rightly belong in the lexicon of blue collar workers and not spoiled players and owners.

Rush

There seems to be a lack of understanding of the economics involved here by many of the posters. First, you might call the players employees, but they are also the product. So relating that to a traditional manufacturing business, the players are a labor expense but also a cost of goods sold. Actually I think the business model is closer to a consulting model where the services of the employees are the product.

Everyone keeps talking about a 50-50 split because it sounds fair. But that is not how a market system is run. There are many businesses that have VERY low margins because the costs are high. That’s just how it nets out based on market forces. These players are without a doubt a rare commodity, they are elite athletes who can do things that we fans find highly entertaining. They are not replaceable. The owners on the other hand have bought into this business model where the players are not a commodity.

Finally, the true intent of many owners is to make money from the increase in equity value of the club, not from cash flow. The bottom line for them is that if the total increase in equity value (what they sell the club for minus what they bought it for) is greater than the total year over year losses, then they will have made money by owning a team. The players don’t have any equity incentive. So to asking them to take a pay cut so the league has more money to invest in insolvent franchises is not fair.

sj10

saying that players are not replaceable is a bunch of bull. every day, every year, some players are replaced by others, and that includes the star players too, because they either get injuries or retire, etc.

so, let us put to rest once and for all that phony argument. Players are replaceable, and they get replaced every day by other players who are either hungrier and work harder, or by injury replacements, or by retirement replacements etc.

if players were supposedly not replaceble, then why have a draft, why have farm teams, why have a feeder system?

Howe, Orr, Gretzky, etc have all left the league, but guess what, THEY WERE REPLACED, and life went on.

lawkout

Fehr’s 3rd proposal from Thurs. Daly was right in saying that this adds about $650 mill in additional costs above the HRR%

It is easy to see why the league rejected this immediately. It calls for additional payments to the players off the cap, in addition to the % of HRR. basically under-the-table payments to players to make their existing contracts 100% paid.

Here it is, Fehr’s proposal #3 ————-

Option 3: This idea proceeds from an entirely different approach. We take two principles of this negotiation: the owners stated desire to reduce the players share to 50% of HRR, and the Players position that there is no reason to go backwards. This proposal bases that second principle on existing player contracts, not the players’ share. Here is how it works:
• A reduction to 50% from 57% of HRR is a 12.3% cut (that is, 7/57), but the loss in an individual player’s salary would be about 13%. (This is because benefit costs do not fall and these come off the top.)
• The owners honor all existing player contracts. We do this by dividing an existing contract, on a yearly basis, into two separate parts: the 13% and the remaining 87%. The 13% is paid to the player in any event, and it is not counted in the players share and is also off the cap.
• The remaining 87% of existing contracts, plus all new contracts, go into the players’ share (plus all benefits). Thus constructed, the players share will become 50% of HRR, immediately.
• This means that an individual player under an existing contract would receive the 13% segregated, plus a normal payment, subject to escrow, of 87% of his salary. A player with a new contract would have 100% of his salary subject to the 50/50 split. However, since the 13% of existing contracts are off the cap, this should create more cap space, which will be important as the cap will be squeezed.

hockeyut

If a player turned to the owner and said “I refuse to play until you increase my salary 25%. I know that I happily signed my contract, but I’ve changed my mind and now I want more” He’d be in breach of contract and forced to honor what he agreed to.

Are you kidding me? Players do this all the time. They “holdout” and coerce owners in to renegotiating a new contract if they feel they are underpaid. Now, not defending the owners in any way, just clearing the air about the reality of pro sports.

65b23

“The 13% is paid to the player in any event, and it is not counted in the players share and is also off the cap.”

Yep. That sentence right there is a deal killer to any sensible person.

ZEKE

Only way out is to get to the 50/50 share in a gradual way. Perhaps at a rate of 1-2% per year.

To me, it still seems like the real debate is between the owners in big markets who can afford the big $$ deals and those that can’t.

65b23

Accdg to Fehr, HRR was $3.303 billion in ’11-12. and the players’ share was $1.883 billion.

Thus, it seems obvious that the players share should stay the same at $1.883 billion until the revenue reaches $3.766 billion.

Then, all increases in revenue after that would be split 50-50

That gets both sides to real 50-50.

Rush

SJ10 – if the players are immediately replaceable (a commodity) which what we are talking about here, then you should be elated because there is a new team locally, the Bulls, that you can watch for a fraction of the price of watching the NHL.

icehawkey

The robber barons started out negotiating in bad faith with an insulting low ball offer. Buttman and his 6or8 billionaire right wing union busters were going to wait until 11th hour just to offer a semi legit proposal hoping the workers/talent/product would fold. They are the ones giving out gazillion dollar contracts over 50 yrs while small market non hockey town teams struggle when they should be moved or folded for the good of the league. All this after record revenue from TV and attendance. Unfortunately the union let the biggest scumbag in hockey, Eric Lindros, run out one of the greatest leaders hockey has ever known, Paul Kelly, for a schiester named Don Fehr to run the union. It is sad that the greatest sport in the world is run by amoral people.

Shark owner

“Unfortunately the union let the biggest scumbag in hockey, Eric Lindros, run out one of the greatest leaders hockey has ever known, Paul Kelly, for a schiester named Don Fehr to run the union. It is sad that the greatest sport in the world is run by amoral people.”

Truer words were never spoken. As you can see, I wrote this a couple days ago here—

“This is the key to the whole thing, this is why there is no NHL hockey now, and none on the horizon either.

the players had Paul Kelly as their leader, and he was a reasonable man who knows hockey inside out, has spent his life in hockey, and was someone who could actually work with the league and not be an ego driven wedge creator like Fehr who wants armageddon”

so, yes, there are at least 2 of us here who recognize the fact that if Paul Kelly was still the union leader, there would have been a settlement by now and we would be watching NHL hockey.

Lindros is absolute scum, and the steroid liar Fehr is a confrontational egotist.

all you have to do is look at the corrupt nepotism in the NHLPA now. Fehr has his BROTHER as his #2 man.

Planet

Time to bring back the WHA!!!

The NHL will start making serious offers to the players once there is legitimate competition to the NHL.

Andy

icehawkey

I found the comment section very entertaining, seems like more fans support the owners then the greedy players.

Now I know why Pro Athletes go broke at a higher rate then normal people, that being they don’t seem to or don’t want to understand the basic principals of economics. Which state that 88% of something, is better then 0% of something. Which is exactly what the players will earn with Don (I hate sports) Fehr leading the union. To Fehr this is a “game” to “Win”. Just listen how every single time he talks about the CBA he talks about what happened 8 yrs ago. Get over yourself Donald. 75% of the current players were not even around then, and least we forget 95% of the players around then AGREED to the contract. Yeah Donald we understand you are mad about something that you did not do, and something that did not effect you, and something you had nothing to do with that happened 8 yrs ago. Now STFU and start acting like a negotiator, and not a cry baby.

It is funny that some in the NHLPA are bring of the fact that if put to a vote the owners would pass the contract. Okay great so lets put the owners proposal to a full vote of all 600 NHL players and lets see what happens too. While I don’t support the owners, the players are being misled by Fehr and that is the bottom line.

Shark owner

Here is another point. Fehr is a baseball man. he could not care less if there are NHL hockey games going on right now because he is perfectly content sitting on his lardass and watching the baseball playoffs instead of negotiating. He is not a hockey fan, thus he does not miss the canceled games at all

Snow Shovel

I’m going to send both parties a letter, for I have the solution. I will take the over and above monies that the players don’t want to give up and the over and above monies that the owners want to keep. There, now both sides are even and no one has the advantage.

So that should put all this to rest. You can thank me as soon as the the games start.

I must memorialize this momentous occasion:

No need to burn and slash,
Give me that contentious cash,
Now the sides won’t need to clash
For I will have that nuisance stash.

pac northwest

Shark Owner #41– You say Fehr is not a hockey man. Neither is Bettman, who is a basketball guy.

WI JP

I don’t care.

Yoey04

Been staying away from this board and hockey…….but looking over last few posts were doomed for this everytime a CBA ends. The owners will keep squeezing more and more from the players and the only ones who will lose will continue to be us the fans….because bottom line we’re the dumbest of all the groups involved here.

WE NEED TO STOP GOING TO THE GAMES! I said before this season if its not starting by the regular starting date I will be at 0 games. I will not renew my Center Ice and I will spend $0 on NHL liscensed products/apperal. And its happened, so no matter what deal they pick, and if they save 82 games or not…I’m NOT going to any games this year! I Cancelled my usual 10 game plan, they can give it away. I’ll find simular seats again if I need them. If just 25% of all fans did this…..these lockout problems are over FOREVER!!

We Are the 3billion dollar revenue….the longer we keep getting robbed by the prices we already pay, the longer they will keep raising them and keep fighting eachother for us idiots (the fans) hard earned $$$.

If the Owner give back any money in these negotiations, which they will a little eventually. They will lose $0.00….all of it will come back from us! $5 extra for parking, $6 programs, extra $.50 a beer. Either way again, only losers are the idiots (the fans).

DONT GO TO THE GAMES! I love hockey, I will have still watch it when its back on. But I can watch CSN, and not go to one single game…..only hope we have is to stop picking sides and fighting eachother! Team up and fight both of them with OUR $$$! The billions theyre fighting over is yours and mine, stop giving it to them and we can all enjoy our sport(s) at a better price. the biggest fear either side would have would be the “Fan Strike.” We pick a weekend where no one goes accross the nation, we can change anything in sports!

instead of joining together, keep attacking eachother and pick a side. Both choices are wrong and they’ll continue to win as we stand divided against eachother, instead of against both groups who care far less about the sport than we do. But they care far more about getting our $ than we do in keeping it unfortunally.

start over

if the cap was cut in half, and most importantly, the ticket prices would have to be cut in half, then, and only then, I would support replacement players.

Watching the Bulls games have been fun, and I would be ok with watching NHL guys who want to play hockey instead of guys who want to play in europe and sulk and negotiate forever and ever.

Andy

Yoey 04,

Respect your opinion, but lets remember most owners already have other ventures, and owners like the Sharks “CLAIM” they lost 12 Million last year. Why would they care about fans money? You do understand that with no league they pay nothing. No Salaries, No Hotels, No Airfares, etc? The owners are in much better shape then players, most of whom have never worked a real job in their lives.

Yes stop going to games, in the long run it will make no difference because Owners won’t lose money the players will.

Do you really think that older aged players such as Ray Whitney 41, Jahr 42, Selanne 41, Broduer 40 want their careers ended because of a lost season by some greedy employees? The players are really stupid because they don’t realize the economics of the game itself.

Do players like Ryane Clowe and Douglass Murray realize that by not playing this year they are hurting themselves more then the owners? Why do I say that simple both Clowe and Murray would be UFA’s at the end of the season. Both players would be in line for NEW CONTRACTS, and receiving pay for a longer period of time. Yet if the season is cancelled because of the players, these same two players will have to wait another full year, and be a year older to be a UFA. It will take a year or maybe two or three years off there total earnings opportunity as NHL players. Do they get this? NO!

start over

One more unexplainable piece: The average salary in the NHL is $2.4 million. The average salary in the NFL is $1.9 million. NHL revenue: $3.3 billion. NFL revenue: $9.5 billion.