The Challenger tank being based on the American M1 Abrams and named after a British tank could be a tongue-in-cheek reference to the frequent use of British tanks as stand-ins for the Abrams in Hollywood war movies since none of the very few (2, maybe 3 at most) Abrams currently in private hands are even operational (one of them, I believe, is nothing but a burned out skeleton). The only movies I know of that featured actual M1 Abrams tanks were the Transformers films, which had Department of Defense support.

Gat's arguments raised a point: was it better to sell out to Ultor and never have to be low-lifes (though with "family" as the Boss cared about those with him/her), or a team who could be able to do what they had to, even if the big regret of "that cost was so damn high it wasn't worth revenge" hung over them?

The final mission had The Boss either end Syndicate once and for all but be branded Terrorists (and lose Shandi, Viola and Mayor Reynolds in the process), or decide "Domestic Terrorism" that KIA wanted the Saints blamed for was the ONE thing you would NEVER do under any circumstances (and have Gat's accusation of "sold out to the corp" ring true though the Saints are held intact somewhat).

Though having Angel and Viola on with the Boss in a new town not a bad thing given how rough Syndicate plays. Then again, that's just this troper's opinion.

"The Last Don" by Mario Puzo had Don Domenico Clericuzio warn "It is okay to make a mistake, but not a fatal mistake" after he did not agree to killing the President of the United States (as a Governot-turned-Senator had hoped to further the Don's agenda). Falling into Kia's trap by going after Killbane might be seen as that "fatal mistake"—by not saving Shaundi, Viola and Mayor Reynolds, the Saints are pictured as Complete Monsters who'd kill their own and other innocents all for the sake of power. Showing Kia as the Complete Monster who would actually do what she tried to make the Saints look capable of doing was "the lesser of two evils"; with Shaundi and Viola alive to back the Boss, as well as Mayor Reynolds and Senator Monica Hughes, the Boss makes the STAG group look like bullies who would stop at nothing to run rampant under martial law.

(Not exactly like Mass Effect 2's "Paragon Shepard" delivering the major speech to the journalist, but not too shabby either.)

Totenkruez

06:10:39 PM Feb 4th 2012edited by Totenkruez

Kia's False Flag Operation seemed a bit odd. Why would she make a phone call and announce her plan? It would've succeeded if left unknown to the Boss. Its timing is also suspect. Without resorting to Rule of Drama, it would mean that STAG was working with the Syndicate or were so heavily focused on fighting the Saints at the expense of letting the Syndicate roam free. We don't see or hear much about any STAG-Syndicate conflict, outside a few lines in "Gang Bang", Cyrus' offer in "STAG Party", and the "Three Way" chaos.

When the "Three Way" choice has to be made, Oleg's rationale for going after Killbane calls back to why the Saints are fighting the Syndicate. The Syndicate had threatened the Saints and killed Johnny. Shaundi was obsessed with taking them down. Was she so willing to take them down that she would give up her life to avenge Johnny? Hard to say, but her conversation with Angel when both are called up as homies leans towards "Yes". "Are Shaundi and Viola acceptable losses in our mission to take down the Syndicate?" seems to be the real question there. The Saints can't be Complete Monsters if they let their own die for a worthy cause. The Boss is shown to be hurt by the loss and can't answer if it was worth it. In this path, the Saints rule Steelport through "Shock and Awe", crushing the Syndicate and taking down STAG head-on by destroying their ultimate weapon (the Daedalus). People might think the Saints are responsible for the destruction of the Magarac Island monument, but who's going to stop them? Especially considering that it's their country now. That confrontational path means the Saints will be busting many more heads to come, exactly what Johnny had hoped to see the Saints return to.

Confronting Kia seems to be a trap considering she told you about it. What does she really want? Perhaps she sees the Boss as a Complete Monster ("Lin. Carlos. Aisha. Johnny... all you do is let your friends die."), blames the Boss for the death of Aisha (Aisha's death motivated Kia to join STAG), and wants a personal showdown? Confident in her victory, framing the Saints and getting the use of the Daedalus to finish off the rest of the gang scum in Steelport would just be a side bonus. In this route, the Saints "rule" Steelport by winning the "Hearts and Minds" of its residents. They've humiliated Killbane (the Boss isn't sold on that as a defeat) and won the popularity contest against STAG. And they got more leverage with Mayor Reynolds. As Monica Hughes says, "Who the fuck do you think the public will side with?" when Cyrus tries to forcefully capture the Saints. The Saints continue to capture the "Hearts and Minds" of other by playing up their celebrity status, which caused Johnny to doubt the Saints (Killbane even calls the Boss out for this in the other route). Shaundi and Viola are not seen expressing their feelings on letting Killbane escape. Angel, who hates Killbane more than the Boss does, is notably absent in this ending.

All things considered, it's a surprise that Volition managed such an intricate theme and decision despite all the wackiness and numerous changes to the story. Which is the "lesser of two evils" isn't that clear cut. Monica Hughes and Cyrus Temple got in on the debate ("Hearts and Minds" vs. "Shock and Awe"). Whichever one the Boss chooses is shown to win. "Shock and Awe": People don't exactly like the Saints but can't do anything about it due to the Saints' raw power. "Hearts and Mind": Cyrus has the power to capture the Saints but can't due to public opinion. Given the divergent endings, it'd be interesting to see how the next game's plot starts.

Scalondragon

03:19:52 AM Feb 10th 2012

That is so, but it also asks the Boss, "You're not gonna be completely happy whichever way you go, so what's the better way you can go where you can live with yourself?"

A friend of this troper also said in a conversation earlier in which this was brought up, "If you can't answer the question 'Was it really worth it?" the answer is 'no'."

Also, since the Saints were framed for the incident that created STAG (the bombing of the Hughes Bridge) by saving Shaundi, Viola and Mayor Reynolds the Boss might be saying "We won't let you railroad us again no matter what."

And given Kia's line about "...all you do is let your friends die" by taking the "high" road the Boss sticks this up the rogue's ego. Showing the fangirl whose Start of Darkness began with the death of her idol she'd become worse than what she pictured the Saints to be—and tried to portray them as.

But also if she decides to make Steelport a independent city-state the Boss played right into Kia's hands by going "You want to paint me a terrorist? Fine, then I'll be one." It might have been what others think Johnny wanted, but in getting the Saints' criminal mojo back, the cost was too high to justify (Pierce asks if it was worth it, and the Boss can't answer).

Again, who the Boss wants to put as the "omnicidal maniac" determines who wins (Kia, who started the mess, or the Boss, who would finish it).

Also, it's said that Johnny sold his image to get the comic book done, so going through with the movie has someone wonder if THAT might have been better to honor his memory than the "slash, burn, nuke, etc." path Kia wanted you to go down.

Johnny's Gangstas in Space comic book is interesting. When he sold his image, he did not think the new commercial media part of the Saints was interfering with old criminal part of the Saints. After the bank robbery, he comes to the realisation that the media part is taking over. When the Boss does The Movie of the comic, it seems to be In Name Only. In the comic, Johnny is the star. In the movie, the Boss is the star. Killbane was likely added based on the events of "Three Way". Killbane escapes in that ending route, so they make a movie continuing the chase after him. Loosely Based On A True Story? The rest of the Saints were probably added for the same reason (the other Saints did not sell their image; the Boss didn't even know about the comic until Pierce mentioned it). It's hard to say if the Boss is honoring Johnny's memory. By reducing Johnny's role and making the movie less like the comic book, it could be seen as distancing Johnny away from something he later grew to dislike (hiding the Old Shame). Of course, you can also say that the Boss is pushing Johnny's memory to obscurity by taking the spotlight.

I think the framing thing goes back to "Hearts and Minds" vs. "Shock and Awe". STAG comes into Steelport before Killbane frames the Saints. Monica Hughes gets STAG deployed because she was there when the bridge attack happened. The mission "Gang Bang" (where STAG first appears) has to be completed first before you can do "Live! With Killbane" (where Killbane frames the Saints for blowing up the Hughes Memorial Bridge). This means the same tactic (framing for PR damage) was used against the Saints by two different groups. The Boss knows the damage it can cause. But how important is it? Both framing events push the Saints from Lovable Rogues to Card Carrying Villains.

The Boss shows Even Evil Has Standards. The Moral Event Horizon is the loss of self-respect that comes with how far the Saints name has been commercialised. (The Saints have gang recruitment ads on the radio; how's that for street cred?) Like Johnny, the Boss seemed fine at first since it was good money. But Johnny realised it had a hidden cost and mentioned it to the Boss when they were captured. The Boss might have reached the same conclusion later. When told about Johnny's comic in "Nyte Blayde's Return", the Boss doesn't seem happy and says, "Remind me to call Legal Lee about this." When told to do the movie shoot at the start of "Three Way", the Boss says, "Fuck that. We're through with being corporate whores." If Killbane is confronted, he says to the Boss, "You were a fucking clown, selling energy drinks and lunch boxes. And I changed that." And indeed he did, if the Boss chose to go after Killbane.

While the Saints are not exactly domestic terrorists, they do cause enough damage that such a label isn't too far off. Yes, the Saints actually become domestic terrorists (for those that don't recognise the new country of Steelport; though "separatist" might be a better term) if the Killbane path is chosen and Kia's PR damage strategy works. Is that really so bad though?

Earlier games adhered to Hobbes Was Right. Stilwater is a better place because the Saints cleared out the chaos of rival gangs and corrupt government officials. Likewise, Steelport is a pretty crappy place. It gets the Saints treatment as they take down the Syndicate and STAG. In SR 3, both the "Shock and Awe" ending (kill Killbane) and the "Hearts and Minds" ending (save Shaundi) follow Hobbes Was Right, but the former follows it more.

Another way to see it might be saving the Saints as a whole or saving its individual members. Either way, the Boss is screwed and has to live with something that's not very nice.

I'm just looking at a recent edit that states that Kinzie is an inexperienced virgin. I'm not so sure about this...for one there is what she says about Safe Word and her implication of working or going there. For another there are a couple of items in her Hacker Cave that hint that the claims of moonlighting as a dominatrix were not far off the mark, particularly a mask Pierce finds. Then there is a conversation between her and Burt Reynolds, where he apparently wasn't good enough for her, which might lead into her using electronics instead of real people like she says.

What do you think?

DragonQuestZ

08:29:03 PM Jan 8th 2012

Well it says it's explicitly stated that she is. So I think at most, it could be just her claiming she is.

tsstevens

01:07:34 AM Jan 9th 2012

Y'wouldn't happen to know where she says this would you? I'd like to check it and compare it to the other facts we learn for context.

DragonQuestZ

09:00:15 AM Jan 9th 2012

No, I don't. If there are game scripts online, you can search for keywords.

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