(One question, why did my Karma take a hammering and Tim's didn't? Not that I'm sensitive, you understand )

The fact that your karma is at about -50 is just shocking .Personally, I'd like to be able to turn it off and not be frustrated by it anymore.

Well, I applauded you, so you're up by one Seriously, if that is to mean anything, the number of Smites etc should be on the posting. That way, it's clear where you're going wrong and the casual visitor can see that a posting has not been popular (without the need for flaming )

That would be nicer indeed. There are also boards where you have to make sure that you don''t smite more times than you applaud, kind of an inverted karma. In fact, when you smite too often on those boards, you get an error saying that YOUR karma is too low

There's been some good points made on this thread, maybe its not got any more skilled devs onboard, but at least its woken people up (me included )

There is merit in the whole roadmap/vision. And as Tim pointed out the XBMC have this easy to find from their main site. Lets do the same, I'll poke the wiki and make a page or two with content to a simular, ready for when teh website gets it re-write. We can discuse on the wiki any needed changes to the wording (anyone want to beat me to it, please do as i hate writing stuff)

All the people who have come forward on this post, well done, you've taken the first steps, but now follow through and help get something done

There is no dictatorship here at all...its a very simple and efficient 'meritocracy'...but to be part of that you have to 'do' and be seen to 'do...then you and your perspective will be welcomed...not everyone will agree with it necessarily of course...but some will and everyone will respect your position without hesitation...even if they dont agree with it.

All the best

Andrew

attention <sarcasm>but its like in the real world, some people do the leadership and most people are sheeps or cows, who will look up, say something, make suggestions, have dreams, but are not willing to fight for there dreams and just do it. after that, they look down again and eat there grass and are angry about those people on the top.without going political, its quite clear, most of the people on this planet like to be administrated. someone has to say, what they should do. most of them are not willed to make their own decission. they like to sit in front of the tv and look daily soaps and such stupid, brain washing shows.....</sarcasm>

Ergo:If someone would like to contribute, he will find a way to do so. But don't expect to get the award, before you have something done at all.

If someone would like to contribute, he will find a way to do so. But don't expect to get the award, before you have something done at all.

The only reward with projects such as these is the self-satisfaction of having contributed something, and the experience that one gains. Anyone who is striving for any other form of reward, whether it is money, respect from the devs and community, etc, is in it for the wrong reasons – plain and simple.

From what I've read no one here is asking for a free reward. The gist of the problem raised by other people is that the initial time investment required (lets call it the "down payment") to make meaningful contributions to this project for a newcomer is too high (compared to other projects). This, they say, is turning away people from the project who's time could otherwise be harnessed.

The devs, on the other hand, appear to disagree; they think the down payment is reasonable, and though they are stretched thin, they are prepared to continue without the help of the less skilled who are unwilling to pay the down payment.

Tim and others are suggesting that the project could be reorganized slightly to make it easier for newcomers to contribute, to decrease the down payment, and to ultimately make the devs' lives easier (wouldn’t that be a good thing, if people started coming out of the woodwork to contribute because it was so easy and fun to do so?) But Tim needs the devs to be on board with the idea for it to have any chance of succeeding at reorganizing things. It’s not that Tim doesn’t want to contribute at all; it’s that he doesn’t want to waste his time trying to do something that the devs have indicated they are opposed to.

We are not opposed to it. I simply do not see a way for it to happen without introducing too much bureaucracy and overhead into an organization who does not have the people to support such a structure.

From what I've read no one here is asking for a free reward. The gist of the problem raised by other people is that the initial time investment required (lets call it the "down payment") to make meaningful contributions to this project for a newcomer is too high (compared to other projects). This, they say, is turning away people from the project who's time could otherwise be harnessed.

hm, too high? i don't believe....We know after this long thread, that we need developer BUT NOT ONLY.So i believe that changing a wiki, or posting expierences, or make a better documentaion in any way....or whatever isn't to high.

Sure, you have to invest, time, brain and whatever.....but how to earn something, if someone is not willing to invest. basic rule in any business, without investment, they will be no return....

Here is nobody around who has the time, to take everyone by hand and show how things are going on.....but i am sure (iand i know that from my own expierence), that the core will help, if they see, that there is a real interest and will to do SOMETHING.

This is an excellent article! This project could actually be organized in the same manner. The only thing that may be an obstacle is, for those whom are at the n00b levels, there is no entry to contribute, with the exception of UI design, IR/RS-232 database, and template generation. There does not seem to be any tools created to make lower-level tasks (coding) more automated.

I myself am probably better prepared now to jump into some lower-level coding after two years of following directions posted by everyone else (my experience in C++ began with programming AMX systems), but I intend to grow to larger-level functionality by cutting my teeth on what I can get my hands on--anything! In the meanwhile, I'm documenting everything that I think all of this means with plans to post it up to share with everyone else in the community as I go along.

I agree with many things that were said in this thread, but I observe one thing that tmoore kept pushing that didn't help the situation at all: trying to get in at the middle of the ladder doesn't work here. Management is necessary, but not the type of management that he was promoting AT THIS TIME YET. It seems that current management of this project lies in the IRC channel, not this forum. The likelihood that anyone would be "assigned" a management billet by attempting to jump in at the middle of the ladder would be worse than dog mess not stinking. This project is NOT at the point where such management is necessary. Now documentation is a different story...

I am a military man, 4 years Active Duty Marine Corps as a grunt, 6 years Army Reserves as a Drill Sergeant. Leadership is quite a bit more than many here have expressed. Management requires more than many here has expressed. The difference between leading at-will employees and military personnel is military personnel MUST look out for each other in order to survive for themselves! Even officers must start at the bottom before receiving their commission to serve.

An officer is expected to be able to do EVERYTHING that their subordinates are instructed to do, with more enthusiasm, more endurance, and more precision. They are expected to be better, faster, smarter, stronger, and can utilize their members as extensions of themselves. They are expected to jump in first, leave last, sacrifice their time/resources/energy if ANYTHING needs to get done, and ALWAYS train up a replacement.

To those who agree that management is the key, CREATE the thing to manage. If people like it, you will attract subordinates. There is a high price to be a manager in this project, and without compensation, I don't think many would have the stomach to subject themselves to the effort. Maybe tmoore or someone could manage DOCUMENTING this project to different audiences of understanding (coders v. graphics v. installers v. system builders v. etc.) to get that validity he needs...

BTW, I'm ready to jump in on the IRC by now. I think two years is long enough to take the bib off.

The only thing that may be an obstacle is, for those whom are at the n00b levels, there is no entry to contribute, with the exception of UI design, IR/RS-232 database, and template generation. There does not seem to be any tools created to make lower-level tasks (coding) more automated.

You do realize that, UI design, IR/RS-2332 database and template generation help would go a VERY long way as a contribution to LinuxMCE? The more templates we have, the better experience for people starting out, the better the UI design, the more usable can be. Those two areas are VERY important for the success of LinuxMCE.

Okay, so for many of the same reasons already stated I too have not really got beyond being "another user" of LMCE.

When I came here, I didn't come to become a coder, I came to prove I could get it LMCE up and running, but have stayed because unlike most products available, coding is possible.

I will admit right now, I have not looked into the dev side at all so before linking me to some other thread or pointing me back somewhere higher in this one can the following be answered.

For any of the "typical" areas that dev work is needed are there well written and well documented sections of existing code that can be interpreted and effectively reverse engineered?

Like many I am a fast learner have a reasonable amount of programming knowledge (hobby only) but have been severely limited in my ability to commit time (three children under 5).

I can spend hours examining code, reading up, learning and trying new stuff, but right now I can not devote the vast amount of time required to get completely under the covers. Some nights are good and I could drop 4 hours+ of time, other nights, when I have been up all night with a sick kid and at work all day, not so much. At least not of quality and reliability.

If I can grab some well commented, existing examples of something, throw together a dev environment and get somewhere contributing time as I can physically spare it, I'm in.

If I understand correctly there are more than a few companies using LinuxMCE and charging lots of money for installations, sure they do the work but they should also donate some (lets say 10-20%) of their profits at least to the project their business relies upon.

Are they doing this or just reaping the benefits and not contributing back to the community and the project?