I usually use a personal example. Like, I wouldn’t have been able to finish my undergraduate degree at UT if Obama hadn’t raised the size of the pell grants.The fact I now have a masters degree and some legitimate personal success is in large part directly related to Obama.

Also, 2 less personal examples is the fact that they even had any amount of money after the bush economy cratered can be directly attributed to Obama.Oh, plus they probably know somebody who is still alive because of Obamacare.

comet wrote:Just spent 20 minutes trying to explain what fake news really means to a Trump coworker, and also expressed to him that I think we could afford to be taxed a lot more heavily to pay for social programs. He got pretty mad. His retort was that he voted for Obama twice and Obama did nothing for our country.

for the non-politically savvy, even those sympathetic towards progressive aims, raising taxes for a more robust social safety net is anathema. we just need to reduce waste or end the drug war or whatever and then there will be plenty of money to fund social programs. source: my fb contacts (in the bay area)

given this, progressive messaging either needs to be dishonest or needs to educate people that taxation isn't an inherently bad thing. the former might be easier but i think it's necessary to get people to come around on the latter.

i think it would really help if we would stop treating taxes like a separate expense from everything else that builds your life. people freak out about the prospect of the cost of m4a because they think "oh my taxes will go up!" and not "oh my taxes+healthexpenses will go down!"

groceries are part of your food fees.rent is part of your shelter fees.lease payments is part of your transportation fees.taxes are part of your food, shelter, transportation, safety, and many, many other fees.

taxes aren't levied by some king for his gilded palace; they are as integral to your life working the way it does as any of your other expenses.

Holding the base-level notion that taxes = theft fits in nicely with a worldview that includes the fantasy of, on some not-so-far-off day, firing a weapon at agents of the same government that stole all that money from you.

you don't really need increases on middle class wages. except in the case of a single payer health care system, in which case I wouldn't sell it as "we need a tax increase" but "a tax that will replace the cost of health insurance"

Mesh wrote:Holding the base-level notion that taxes = theft fits in nicely with a worldview that includes the fantasy of, on some not-so-far-off day, firing a weapon at agents of the same government that stole all that money from you.

light rail coyote wrote:i'm late to this/don't know what the overall discussion ITT was like but as someone who has worked with a ton of elected officials AOC's minor policy confusions are nothing compared to some of the shit that i've seen/lots of elected officials that seem very qualified on paper are gigantic dumbasses.

yeah basically the only reason anything gets done is expertise at the staff level. most politicians have a good (or at least a working) grasp of broad policy issues and plenty have a somewhat deeper understanding of issues related to their non-politician job or a pet issue, but basically all of the nuts and bolts comes from behind the scenes

This. The way people can contort the privilege of having a staff into an question of a single persons qualifications makes me rage. Literally no one does this successfully without support.

palmer eldritch wrote:you don't need to convince people that their taxes should be higher, just that people richer than they are should have taxes that are higher

yeah but people still think they’ll be rich as well one day so they won’t agree to it

do people really believe this tho? i can never wrap my head around this retort as someone who is convinced that status quo dictates that i will never even own a home, much less find a steady job with benefits.

Mesh wrote:Holding the base-level notion that taxes = theft fits in nicely with a worldview that includes the fantasy of, on some not-so-far-off day, firing a weapon at agents of the same government that stole all that money from you.

and they also think I'VE WORKED HARD AND NEVER TAKEN A DIME FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

gold and glass wrote:When you get to heaven, do you get to see a list of which gimmicks belonged to who?

palmer eldritch wrote:you don't need to convince people that their taxes should be higher, just that people richer than they are should have taxes that are higher

yeah but people still think they’ll be rich as well one day so they won’t agree to it

do people really believe this tho? i can never wrap my head around this retort as someone who is convinced that status quo dictates that i will never even own a home, much less find a steady job with benefits.

Just a guess but it probably also has to do with an irrational zero-sum attitude that uplifting others (black and brown folks) makes white people worse off

mooncalf wrote:well-off people need to pay way more in taxes but pretty sure the middle class needs to see tax increases too to see the kind of social safety net that most of us would prefer.

you misspelled corporations i think

Yeahhhhh when companies like Amazon are claiming losses and paying actual zero corporate taxes, I gotta say I'd like to see them pony up first. Then maybe we can start trying to convince the masses that taxes are some good shit.

mooncalf wrote:well-off people need to pay way more in taxes but pretty sure the middle class needs to see tax increases too to see the kind of social safety net that most of us would prefer.

you misspelled corporations i think

Yeahhhhh when companies like Amazon are claiming losses and paying actual zero corporate taxes, I gotta say I'd like to see them pony up first. Then maybe we can start trying to convince the masses that taxes are some good shit.

can someone explain (and dumb down as much as you want without fear of making me feel bad) how a company can claim losses while the CEO becomes one of the richest people on earth?

gold and glass wrote:When you get to heaven, do you get to see a list of which gimmicks belonged to who?