Gothnet:I can't think of anything less interesting than head games and domination plays, or whipping someone's bare ass...

Different strokes for different folks.

Hence the mantra of the BDSM community: Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK (as long as it is safe, sane, and consensual).

There's a big difference between saying "I don't like ____, so I'm not going to do it" and "I don't like ____, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it". No one in the scene would judge you for setting your limits according to your own comfort level; they wouldn't be so understanding if you denigrated people who like things that you don't.

I've been in the scene for close to 20 years, and there are still things that squick me out (EG medical scenes). You just politely excuse yourself when other people are saying/doing something that you are really uncomfortable with.

clyph:Hence the mantra of the BDSM community: Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK (as long as it is safe, sane, and consensual, or inspired by this book, or involves you doing it differently than methods sanctioned by TEH SCENE!!!!).

Women in the Western world are more liberated, free, educated and able to make whatever choices they like than in any other time or place in human history.

And with that freedom of choice they have picked the following works (written by women for women) as their selections to outsell and thus by association represent their desires over everything else directed at their gender.

[images.wikia.com image 300x420]

[www.arnizachariassen.com image 850x429]

The following is how the patriarchy feels about this outcome.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 240x311]

Lookup the "Norway paradox" or Norwegian paradox. As liberal democracies expand and women more and more are free to choose their path, the biological differences actually become more pronounced. The result is that Norway, one of the most feminist countries in the world,actually has more pronounced gender differences than most conservative countries, including places like Pakistan and Indian. The theory is that since the outcome is not forced, women naturally and biologically more inclined to fields like nursing or child care, while conservative areas women are often forced into fields like medicine and law.

You could make the same hypothesis in the social agreement. As we are more and more free to chose our own mates and have power in the relationship, women are making choices drawn from their biological urges. The result is that women are listing to be over powered and control, even though publicly they proclaim to want fairness and equality. The result is a whole generation of men who almost walk on egg shells to court women, yet they are being drawn even more to alpha males (and men who appear to be alpha). So a minority of men, pysopayhs, thugs, and abusers have no shortage of wowomen while stable middle class engineer types troll eharmony hopelessly. I would expect to see more of this, as well as polyamorous marriages and relationships as these dominant men have less to hold them back from courting a multitude of women willing to withstand abuse. This case has less to do withe rights of women but a legal system that can no longer maintain traditional social mores.

Gothnet:of the guys I've met who were into it, most were deeply unlikeable. Most were also manipulative control freaks.

Manipulative control freaks and deeply unlikeable people are everywhere, both in and outside of the scene. The really objectionable ones tend not to stay in the organized BDSM community for long - it's a pretty close-knit community and word gets around if someone is genuinely abusive, unethical, or unsafe. The scene could do a better job of policing itself, but I still maintain that it's better/safer than a random sampling of the general population, because at least people are aware of and discuss the problem.

No matter how much you try to sterilize "the scene" by making it sound like some kind of sexual libertarianism, you are still getting off by reopening old emotional trauma, either in yourself or your partner. Just because your mom put out her cigarettes on your skin when she came home drunk and now you can't get it up without a red hot bic lighter on your ass, doesn't mean it's a healthy thing to engage in.

clyph:Gothnet: I can't think of anything less interesting than head games and domination plays, or whipping someone's bare ass...

Different strokes for different folks.

Hence the mantra of the BDSM community: Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK (as long as it is safe, sane, and consensual).

There's a big difference between saying "I don't like ____, so I'm not going to do it" and "I don't like ____, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it". No one in the scene would judge you for setting your limits according to your own comfort level; they wouldn't be so understanding if you denigrated people who like things that you don't.

I've been in the scene for close to 20 years, and there are still things that squick me out (EG medical scenes). You just politely excuse yourself when other people are saying/doing something that you are really uncomfortable with.

Fine. Whatever.

I'm not denigrating people for their sexual tastes, I'm saying that in my experience all the guys I've met that were into your scene were manipulative arseholes. These two things are separate.

And it's not just a small sample size either. Old goth here and there is a lot of scene crossover.

I'm not even saying it's appropriate to compare it to this case, and I'd be the last person to ban anything. But all y'all are generally pretty unlikeable human beings.

Magnanimous_J:No matter how much you try to sterilize "the scene" by making it sound like some kind of sexual libertarianism, you are still getting off by reopening old emotional trauma, either in yourself or your partner. Just because your mom put out her cigarettes on your skin when she came home drunk and now you can't get it up without a red hot bic lighter on your ass, doesn't mean it's a healthy thing to engage in.

Nurglitch:pottie: brap: There's not enought shade in the world to make that sexy.

I am completely baffled by those that take pleasure in being hurt and humiliated.

I'm baffled by people that find feet sexy. People come in all shapes, sizes, and preferences. The pain and humiliation thing is pretty straight-forward though: essentially it's about sensation and eroticism, and what it takes to get some people primed to orgasm.

Rent Party:clyph:Hence the mantra of the BDSM community: Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK (as long as it is safe, sane, and consensual, or inspired by this book, or involves you doing it differently than methods sanctioned by TEH SCENE!!!!).

FTFY

Bullshiat.

There is a short list of specific techniques/activities that are considered verboten because they're proven to be inherently unsafe, and people will call you out if you try and do them. Beyond that, the prevailing attitude is that there isn't "one true way" or any authoritative source.

For instance, a lot of people are into Gorean play; a lot of others consider it childish and inane. Both groups generally tolerate one another, although of course you always get some self-important idiot on either side who wants to proclaim that MY WAY IS THE ONE TRUE WAY AND ANYONE WHO DOES IT DIFFERENTLY IS DOING IT WRONG. Generally those people get pushed off to the fringes and ignored. That's just human nature.

Occasionally you get some newb who gets all butthurt when s/he gets told in no uncertain terms that s/he is doing something horribly unsafe and needs to cut that shait out before someone gets hurt, dies, or goes to jail. Either they get a clue, or they storm off and denigrate the people who dared question their imagined authority.

Rapmaster2000:First of all you guys it's called SM not S&M. You can always tell someone that doesn't really get what the lifestyle is really about when they say that. You guys are probably totally vanilla. I'm into sex things that you've probably never even heard of, man.

I'd tell you more, but it would totally blow away your whitebread corporate fornication paradigm. You just wouldn't get it.

Well, actually, to those in the know, its BDSM or nothing, Sm ain't shiat since he went all maintstream and solo, people that say "SM" are almost as cluesless as those fascists who insist on "Safe Sane and Consensual", rather than the much hipper "Risk-aware Consensual Kink

clyph:Rent Party: clyph:Hence the mantra of the BDSM community: Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK (as long as it is safe, sane, and consensual, or inspired by this book, or involves you doing it differently than methods sanctioned by TEH SCENE!!!!).

FTFY

Bullshiat.

No, really, allow me to demonstrate, with you first.

There is a short list of specific techniques/activities that are considered verboten

Verbotten? But I thought...

Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK

And which hipster douche said this?

When I saw all the interest in 50 Shades of Grey I was like "LOL newbs".

Because I have it on good authority that

Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK

Oh yeah...

When a shiatty book like 50 Shades (which gets the BDSM world not a bit)

So basically, "Everything is cool, so long as it's done in the manner sanctioned by my special little club."

Here's a better idea, that actually *is* "Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK."

The legions of fatties that feel liberated enough to get off to whatever gets them off as a result of this shiatty book are just as legitimately kinky as you are, Hipster McSpankalot. You are not unique. You have no special knowledge. You are not a snowflake, no matter how much you really really wish you were, and no matter how far down your nose you care to look at what those other folks are up to.

Magorn:cluesless as those fascists who insist on "Safe Sane and Consensual", rather than the much hipper "Risk-aware Consensual Kink

I'm old guard. I use SSC because that's what I learned. I don't object to calling it RACK, it's just not my preferred nomenclature. Without getting into pedantic hair-splitting, they're both asking the same thing: are the people involved doing it of their own free will, aware of the risks, exercising rational judgement, and taking appropriate safety precautions?

Rapmaster2000:First of all you guys it's called SM not S&M. You can always tell someone that doesn't really get what the lifestyle is really about when they say that. You guys are probably totally vanilla. I'm into sex things that you've probably never even heard of, man.

I'd tell you more, but it would totally blow away your whitebread corporate fornication paradigm. You just wouldn't get it.

Honestly I imagine a lot of people either know or would be completely unsurprised to hear about it, and would simply find your alternate "fornication paradigm" singularly unappealing.

pottie:brap: There's not enought shade in the world to make that sexy.

I am completely baffled by those that take pleasure in being hurt and humiliated.

Fun fact: Compulsive Gamblers, studies have proven,do not get addictted to the feeling they get whenhey win, most have little or no emotional reaction when they win, even when they win big. What they get addicted to, ironically enough, is the chemicals that make that small sick, scared feeling you get whe you lose, particularly when you lose money you can't afford to lose in the first place.

So people also eroticize that scared feeling, which isn't suprising given the proximity of the genetalia to the pit of your stomach, and so anticpation of pain and or humliation becomes a sensation that, if not exactly pleasurable, is still sought after, and when you combine that with the endorphin rush that properly applied pain causes...well, it's skytockets for many people without any other stimulation

Magnanimous_J:No matter how much you try to sterilize "the scene" by making it sound like some kind of sexual libertarianism, you are still getting off by reopening old emotional trauma, either in yourself or your partner. Just because your mom put out her cigarettes on your skin when she came home drunk and now you can't get it up without a red hot bic lighter on your ass, doesn't mean it's a healthy thing to engage in.

So what about people in the scene who have experienced no trauma? You're assuming people are always into BDSM who were abused somehow. I know its a popular trope to add in films aimed at the vanilla market like The Secretary but this doesn't mean that kinky people grew up badly. Yes it does happen sometimes, but you will find people with unfortunate pasts in any community if you are looking for it.

clyph:Magorn: cluesless as those fascists who insist on "Safe Sane and Consensual", rather than the much hipper "Risk-aware Consensual Kink

I'm old guard. I use SSC because that's what I learned. I don't object to calling it RACK, it's just not my preferred nomenclature. Without getting into pedantic hair-splitting, they're both asking the same thing: are the people involved doing it of their own free will, aware of the risks, exercising rational judgement, and taking appropriate safety precautions?

Yeah that was a hipster joke not a serious comment about the relative merits of either one. I'm actually still a firm SSC person for the simple reason that I generally tend to be one of those who has to fix problems, contact hospitals, and make excuses to the Gendarmes if something goes horribly wrong (I also tend to "Ranger" at Burning Man-type events so my reaction to "risk-aware" is a lot like the people that want to tell me that trying to leap/run through the 2000-deg fire stack is a form of "radical self expression" for them. True as that may be, it infringes on my right of "radical not having to save your dumb ass AFTER you do something colossaly stupid and/or potentially fatal)

Different shades for different trades, but in my experience and in little to no relation to the kink trade, I've noticed people who are actively and outwardly having to show uniqueness, 'difference,' or some other general need to belong typically are people of little actual substance once you break down the 'unique' trait they've attributed to themselves.

So my question to the active kinkers are, how often does it come up that people are in this lifestyle just to fit into the alternative lifestyle, and how many are actually in it for the actual kinky sex?

Rent Party:The legions of fatties that feel liberated enough to get off to whatever gets them off as a result of this shiatty book are just as legitimately kinky as you are, Hipster McSpankalot. You are not unique. You have no special knowledge.

I chuckle the 50 shades of grey'ers just like I chuckle at the Goreans, because it's cute in a naive and clueless kind of way. It's funny in the same way a baby learning to walk is funny. If that gets them off, they're welcome go for it. Some of them might eventually get a clue and start living in reality instead of bad fiction, but everyone has to start somewhere. Maybe that is a bit elitist of me, but I'm not stopping them from living out their bad fantasies.

If I'm DMing at a club/party and I see someone is doing something I know to be unsafe, you can be damn sure I'll stop the scene. It doesn't matter if they're old guard and been in the scene longer than I've been alive or it's some newb trying to do something that he read in a book. Style or source of information has nothing to do about it. It's about specific actions that are unsafe. A choking hazard is a choking hazard no matter where you got the idea for it or how important it is to your fantasy. If you're breaking the skin you're either using proper sterile procedure or your not. If a sub safewords and the dom ignores it, I will intervene. And so forth.

You sound like you're butthurt that a DM like me wouldn't allow you to endanger the safety of your sub at an event he was in charge of. Boo farking hoo. Learn to play safe, or go somewhere else and we'll read about you in the newspaper when you're arrested for injuring or killing your partner.

clyph:Rent Party: The legions of fatties that feel liberated enough to get off to whatever gets them off as a result of this shiatty book are just as legitimately kinky as you are, Hipster McSpankalot. You are not unique. You have no special knowledge.

I chuckle the 50 shades of grey'ers just like I chuckle at the Goreans, because it's cute in a naive and clueless kind of way. It's funny in the same way a baby learning to walk is funny. If that gets them off, they're welcome go for it. Some of them might eventually get a clue and start living in reality instead of bad fiction, but everyone has to start somewhere. Maybe that is a bit elitist of me, but I'm not stopping them from living out their bad fantasies.

Oh wait, but

"Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK."

That you need rules and "DMs" and have to ensure that D is capitol but that S is lower case tells me just exactly how shallow and uninteresting you, and every hipster scenester you know, really are.

You're guys aren't kinky, you're a pathetic attention whores desperate for attention, and lacking any real differentiating aspects, club together to make up rules.

You sound like you're butthurt that a DM like me wouldn't allow you to endanger the safety of your sub at an event he was in charge of. Boo farking hoo. Learn to play safe, or go somewhere else and we'll read about you in the newspaper when you're arrested for injuring or killing your partner.

The notion that you think you would ever have anything to say about what I do and don't do is *exactly* the kind of hipster douchbag rule fetish I'm talking about, and *exactly* the kind of control freak asshole bit mentioned above. "Allow me?" Who the fark do you think you are?

I know who you're not: You're not special. You are not a snow flake. You're just another boring hipster with a bad wardrobe.

Magorn:I generally tend to be one of those who has to fix problems, contact hospitals, and make excuses to the Gendarmes if something goes horribly wrong (I also tend to "Ranger" at Burning Man-type events so my reaction to "risk-aware" is a lot like the people that want to tell me that trying to leap/run through the 2000-deg fire stack is a form of "radical self expression" for them. True as that may be, it infringes on my right of "radical not having to save your dumb ass AFTER you do something colossaly stupid and/or potentially fatal)

Same here (although I don't do Burning Man type events; I did used to be a chiurgeon and heavy weapons / archery marshall at SCA events). Basically all those activities involve keeping people who are caught up in what they are doing from hurting themselves or others inadvertently, and cleaning up the damage when they do.

We need to get together for a beer when I get back to VA (I'm in TX now).