One thing I wondered is why they are marketing the new BD pedals with 'Atlas' instead of Speed King. I still have two functioning Atlas cymbal stands that I bought in the late 70s or early '80s so I get that connection.

As far as I can tell the pedals are souped up and modernized Speed Kings though by the look of the footboards.

Supra-Lite? With a steel shell and brass lugs, wouldn't it be HEAVIER than a normal Supraphonic?!?!?

I was thinking the same thing.Steel is always heavier that aluminum.My second comment is....why?.I can see reintroducing the 15" diameter snare,but don't we already have enough steel shell snares already available?I think introducing a 15x5,15x6.5 and a 13x3.5 Supra would have been a better move.Throw some chrome over brass S hoops on those and Ludwig wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.

Ludwig did a great job this time keeping the new stuff under wraps,not like they did with the Club Date line before NAMM.I didn't hear anything.I guess they plugged the leak.:)

One thing I wondered is why they are marketing the new BD pedals with 'Atlas' instead of Speed King. I still have two functioning Atlas cymbal stands that I bought in the late 70s or early '80s so I get that connection.

As far as I can tell the pedals are souped up and modernized Speed Kings though by the look of the footboards.

Curious..

Jim

the speed king pedals had interior springs though and the Atlas shows exterior spring. Not an expert on Ludwig pedals but I always like the idea of the interior compression springs.

definately there is a bit of nod to the look of the new pedals towards the old speed king... i have to say that the speed king is an awesome design, and i really like the feel of them.. however, i don't like the flimsy, slippin around nature of the linkages on them... if they would modernize the structure but keep the same patented offset direct mechanism, and also maintain the optional heel control longboard variation, i think you would see them fly off the shelves... well at least i would buy one

Update: "Want Steel? Got $200 bucks? We can hook you up for less than that! Stay tuned...."
From the official Ludwig page. Also a new badge, blue and olive oval badge with a keystone in the middle.

Wow. Cheap.

I'm wondering if it's just a Rocker shell dressed up in a new suit? Thought Ludwig USA might have ventured into the steel shell market, but at those prices I'm not convinced it's not the same old generic Asian shell with some different bling and a fancy new badge. If that's the case, I reckon attributing any connotations of "Supra" might be a stretch.

I have to say that, even though the only Ludwig drums I own are 2 supras, the more time that passes and the more drums I see, the more I am convinced that they are the only drum company that has that something that is hard to describe, an X factor, that makes you want them. I used to think the lugs were dated but as time passes I am really starting to like them (maybe want is the word) and the club date kits and zep themed kits are all just so nice.

I'd like to know why they STILL can't fix the lug splay problem. If you have a look at the pic above, it's rather obvious...

I couldn't agree more, irrespective of price point. It's a first base measurement thing. Even though this is a cheap Asian drum with a Ludwig badge, I'd still expect the very basics to be right.

All that said, as a caution, sometimes a camera close up can cause the image to look like that. I've experienced it on my own shots, but that's using a point & shoot camera. Let's face it, it's not exactly unknown for Ludwig drums to suffer from lug splay though :(

I have to say that, even though the only Ludwig drums I own are 2 supras, the more time that passes and the more drums I see, the more I am convinced that they are the only drum company that has that something that is hard to describe, an X factor, that makes you want them. I used to think the lugs were dated but as time passes I am really starting to like them (maybe want is the word) and the club date kits and zep themed kits are all just so nice.

I really like the idea of a smaller snare too.

I feel this way about Gretsch and maybe sonor after seeing the SQ2's.

I agree. Now Ludwig has gone the Taiwan route on their lower end stuff but you can easily say that they enjoy the best resale value of any of the others. Ringo & Bonham's estate should be on their payroll permanently.

I go for Brass and Bronze, so I'm not in the market for a Steel shell snare.
I think the size options are cool though. The badge is kinda neat.

Not sure how different this would sound over the Stainless Steel (Black Magic) shell they also have out.
With the shell being slightly thicker at 1.5 mm, it might sound different than the Steel shelled snares people usually don't care for.

Said it before, mine don't get rod splay. It CAN if a head is taken off and put back on, but NEW heads don't get it.
I also have snares with all the different lug types, except the new Keystone shape lug.

mine don't get rod splay. It CAN if a head is taken off and put back on, but NEW heads don't get it.

Not wishing to contribute to further derail Karl, but I don't get how used heads should affect the outcome. They take a bit more tension distance, but that's in the vertical plane if the lugs are lined up to the hoop holes correctly. Please enlighten me :)

Not wishing to contribute to further derail Karl, but I don't get how used heads should affect the outcome. They take a bit more tension distance, but that's in the vertical plane if the lugs are lined up to the hoop holes correctly. Please enlighten me :)

Sure :-)

I looked at my stuff last night.
Here's a run down. All drums have 2.3's:

6.5 CM, Bow ties -- NO angled rods.

8x14 Maple with Mach Lugs -- NO angled rods.

Bronze BB IMP lugs- 2 or 3 slightly angled rods--heads are almost 5 years on this drum (not used much, only recording/home, no gigs), and have been on and off a couple times. When I say "slightly", it's nothing like we've seen in pics.

2 Brass BB's IMP lugs--one had No angled rods, other one (used more) had 2 small angled, one just a tiny angle. Heads have been on and off on these drums too.
The Brass BB's used to have Tubes, and they never got rod splay with Tubes.

"New!" 6.5 Acro LTD Bow Ties--looked, no splay, but not tuned up either--it's in the box for now :-)

The Bow Tie lugs are actually really straight on the wood and Acros.

The Hammered 402-- I can see a little on a few rods, but not all of them.

This is the only one with any actual visible angle. I also just threw on an OLLLD Remo CS Black dot (so old it has the small logo!).
This head has been on and off several drums over a long time (I guess I'm cheap haha!)
Bottom is pretty straight on all rods, but no, not perfect.
I don't use this drum much, but I probably could put new heads on it since they have been on so long. I can see how the rods act then.

When I use new heads, I make sure it's all lined up, and I finger tighten. Then I use a key, cross pattern tensioning (sometimes with 2 keys).
Maybe that explains why I don't get all the rods going in angled, I don't know.

After a while, the film isn't going to be evenly tensioned because I like to play around with sounds the drum will make, so, if the head is taken off for some reason, when it's put back on, it's not going to sit like it did originally. It might tune back up and sound good though.
A stretched head is gonna pull rods here and there if it's put back on too.

That CS BD head on the Hammered 402 has been on several drums (metal, wood, a FT at one point) like I said too...I need to buy a new one :-)

I'm not being a fanboy, I don't owe Ludwig anything, & I don't like everything they make. I'm just not bothered if this splay thing happens.

I see 402's at the shop, and I CAN say, when I initially set them up, mine don't look anything like the angled rods I've seen on some drums on shelves or in pics.

The formula for making the Ludwig shell works, and the whole drum itself sounds great, so if it doesn't look exactlyall perfect, I don't care.

I asked before, for the people really bothered by this, "do people PLAY the thing, or do they JUST LOOK at it?"
Does someone buy and instrument for the sound it makes or not?
Things not working properly is one thing, but a rod here and there that isn't perfectly straight is not a deal breaker IMO.

If, over the years, hoops, heads etc...have changed slightly, and Ludwig's shells haven't, to redo the lugs now to compensate would take new tooling, which means investing BIG BUCKS, using up existing stock, etc... SELMER isn't going to do it. Maybe the crew over at Ludwig might like to do it, but can't? Who knows?

We know that the drum sells tons of units every year, people love the sound, the drum functions as it should, and it has a unique sound (that other companies try to copy) the way it is, so, right or wrong, Selmer isn't going to change it.

The "problem" is resolved by the gaskets they put on now.
EVERY maker uses gaskets on every lug, and no one complains about it .......BUT, on a 402 (BB, or whatever)...people don't like the sound with the gaskets on the shell haha!.... what's the answer?

Take the gaskets off a DW, Tama or Pearl snare, and see what it does. That would be a good experiment, but I don't have any of their stuff.

FTR, other than my Hammered 402 drum, I'm not all that big a fan of the 402 (or 400), but, I like the sound when other people play it.
I like the sound of this new 6.5 Acro a lot more than the 402.

I got the Classic from Larryace, who was kind enough to offer to sell his to me, as his 402 covers that range of sound well for him.

I sold some stuff, and the shop asked me if I'd take credit instead of the cash.
Usually, I wouldn't care, but I was going to pay Larry for the drum with the money so I didn't have to got OOP.
I made the shop give me a stupid cheap price on a Acro Classic for doing them the favor (and still had credit on top of it!).

It was supposed to be a Classic, but it came in as a LTD.

The LTD does look better in person, but still not a fan of the Satin finish. I like contrast.
I was going to keep it in the box, if it was super collectible.

I was told (by Ludwig) that the LTD is going to ONLY be made this year, but there are "several hundred" out there, "so play it dude!".
The collectibility factor isn't the same as if there were only 2 or 300. Would have been a nice "wrong" if it was super collectible :-)

I'm loving the sound of the Classic, so now I'm changing all the Satin stuff over to Chrome parts (keeping the Satin stuff mint in a storage case) and using both drums.
I like to have 2 snares with me on gigs "JIC", so now that I know the LTD isn't going to be rare, I'm able to do it.

I'm putting Imperial lugs and a P-86 on the one that was the LTD.
I put a P-86 on the Classic already.
I'm taking the Imps off my Brass Edition drum, and putting Tubes I have on it, and using those Imps on the Acro.

The tone of the Acro is different than the 402, to me it's deeper, and I like the tone of the ring I'm getting more than what I was getting from the 402.
The 6.5 Acro is a really cool drum. It's not quite as cutting as the Brass, and that's what I was after for one band, and for smaller places I play. Very sensitive, and has gotten several really nice sounds adjusting the tuning.

I'm putting new heads on the Hammered snare today too, so I'll see how the "splay" goes.

Hey, just looking in now, as I've been super busy preparing for the show. Thanks for the crazy detailed review of "splayed or not splayed". So the short answer is uneven tension over time = get it :)

As an aside, I'm not a fan of gaskets. Even if a drum is accurately made, they serve no purpose other than to accommodate the different drum radii range with the same lug. There's zero "isolation" value, irrespective of marketing claims.

I looked at a few snares on the shelf at the shop the other day, and if there were no gasket, several wood shell snares would have some angle on the lugs. A few Gretsch, a couple PDP Limited, etc...

I've seen DW's with some angle too. Not a lot, but it was there.

It may be the way hoops are made these days too. It looks like the hole is a little further out than on a few older hoops I still have. It only takes a little bit to make something go off on an angle, which just gets wider as it goes on. Ludwig snares do have a pretty wide gap between the hoop and lug, so that might add to it on drums that have angled rods.
I didn't have any problem with line up on the Acro Classic though.
I'd post pics, but I am way too lazy these days, with too many other things on my plate. Sorry. Do have a little time to post here and there though :-)

I don't care at all about gaskets on drums. They don't seem to affect the sound of my drums (bigger anyway), so I left them on. Snares don't have them, except for the tube lugs which are small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by major_panic
I'd like to know why they STILL can't fix the lug splay problem. If you have a look at the pic above, it's rather obvious...

I couldn't agree more, irrespective of price point. It's a first base measurement thing. Even though this is a cheap Asian drum with a Ludwig badge, I'd still expect the very basics to be right.

There is a positive to the lug splay, although it looks like a beginner made the drum when the lugs are splayed, jacked around tension rods do help prevent detuning to a certain degree, especially with tube lugs.

LUDWIG is in a tough spot with the fix, they'd have to change the shell specs (not going to happen), or change the lug specs, which, if it were me would be my remedy.

About the new logo... blue and olive? Stomach turning colour combination. Can think of only one other that could out do it- pink and brown.

Oh and here's one for the LUDWIG heads. What's the history/story of 'why' they chose blue and olive for the colours on the badge?

Lug splay doesn't bother me too much because it doesn't effect the sound in any way. I buy drums for the sound of them, not looks. On the subject of gaskets to fix the problem - I'd rather have lug splay and no rubber life-killing gaskets than have good alignment with gaskets. You would think at some point though, that they would just change the lug, since you can't change the shell size...
The 15" sounds intriguing, but I'm not sure if I have the money right now. I still need to buy an ACL ticket for Saturday :).

A bit of mindless trivia for you that I've read in various places across the internet. The reason for the lug splay is down to two things.......one is easy to verify, the other has proven to be more difficult to confirm. The first is a move from 1.6 hoops to 2.3. And the second is a change in the shell specs. Whilst the thickness of the hoop is easily identifiable, finding confirmation of the smaller shell size has been a little more clouded.

A theory that I've read is, Ludwig have never changed the specs of the Imperial lug, but they have made the shell ever so slightly smaller. Evidence used is the slight gap between the bead and the Imperial lug that is not apparent on older drums with the original shell specs. So, if the info is correct.....a change is shell size is not only possible, but also partly responsible to the splay that causes so much contention.

A bit of mindless trivia for you that I've read in various places across the internet. The reason for the lug splay is down to two things.......one is easy to verify, the other has proven to be more difficult to confirm. The first is a move from 1.6 hoops to 2.3. And the second is a change in the shell specs. Whilst the thickness of the hoop is easily identifiable, finding confirmation of the smaller shell size has been a little more clouded.

A theory that I've read is, Ludwig have never changed the specs of the Imperial lug, but they have made the shell ever so slightly smaller. Evidence used is the slight gap between the bead and the Imperial lug that is not apparent on older drums with the original shell specs. So, if the info is correct.....a change is shell size is not only possible, but also partly responsible to the splay that causes so much contention.

Make of it what you will. :-)

Interesting, I might look into that. I was under the impression that most drums except for very old ones were all 1/8" undersized. Regardless - that is the current standard, so changing sizes now would cause head sizing problems, thus potentially alienating your product from the market.

Lug splay .. What's the problem with putting an appropriate thickness gasket under the lugs ??

Quote:

Originally Posted by jodgey4

Lug splay doesn't bother me too much because it doesn't effect the sound in any way. I buy drums for the sound of them, not looks. .

The problem with gaskets on Ludwig metal snares - they're hideous... I've been playing Ludwig for years and there's just something visually wrong with a gasket between an Imperial lug and that center bead...

For me the splay is visually lame - but what bugs me more is the principle; it shouldn't exist on a quality drum...