BioWare - More Glamor than Game?

April 1st, 2008, 16:57

I was a bit dissappointed at first with NWN, since it was originally going to be the "heir to Baldur's Gate" (there was even a loading screen in BG2 which said something like: "The adventures don't stop here, you can import your character to Neverwinter Nights!").

Other than that I've never been dissappointed by a BioWare game. Along with Obsidian and PB, they're pretty much the only reliable RPG developers out there, so how can I not support them?

Originally Posted by Ryuken
It's dreadful to see console gamers gloat over basic RPG features or dumbed down features, these guys live in a different universe where there is little room for pre-release criticism.

There is no hard line between PC gamers and console gamers. It only exists in your mind. In the end, we are all gamers and there are different preferences in all.

Really, I want to know how many gamers still exclusively play on PC or console. In this time where many people have even more than one PC in the house, that seems like a small concern. I look for different qualities in a console game, but do not live in a different universe.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
There is no hard line between PC gamers and console gamers. It only exists in your mind.

Funny, this is exactly what Harvey Smith and Warren Spector were saying before Deus Ex: Invisible War came out.

Play S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and Crysis on the PC and then play Halo 2 and Gears of War on The XBox. Then look at what the console versions of Civilization are going to be like, and then try and tell me that there is no difference between PC gamers and console gamers. You can see the difference between the two audiences in what games are popular on those platforms. I'm sure that there's a bit of overlap, but I don't think that there's much.

I think the point is that the 'majority PC only' audience here is an aberration. Most gamers are multi-platform. I would consider my kids 'console gamers', but my older son *loves* PC RPG's, having enjoyed loads of Fate, KoTOR, some Avernum, Eschalon, Fastcrawl and the like. Not to mention the handheld experience.

And I think that handhelds are doing a wonderful job of integrating the PC and console experience - games like Etrian Odyssey fill that job quite well.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
Really, I want to know how many gamers still exclusively play on PC or console. In this time where many people have even more than one PC in the house, that seems like a small concern. I look for different qualities in a console game, but do not live in a different universe.

I don't own any consoles. OK, that's just one data point .

And you say yourself that you have different expectations from a console game than from a PC game. It's often mentioned that, for example, Oblivion tried to bridge that gap, but many PC gamers were not happy with the changes. It's also only an anecdotal reference, but of the many people that I know who own Oblivion, the console gamers seem generally much more happy with it. They cherish the streamlined and casual gameplay.

That's why I said I didn't expect much from the PC version of Jade Empire. It was a console game after all.

Edit: Reading over it, it sounded a bit like some elitist rambling. It wasn't meant that way. It's just about different expectations, nothing else.

Meh, no Console-Game can ever achieve the Greatness of a CRPG - alone because of the simple controls and big GUIs… and I guess that even Dragon Age will be developed with a future Console-Version in Mind. Bioware made 2 great RPGs (Baldur's Gate 1+2) and one good RPG (NWN 1)… and after that shallow console-stuff.

Originally Posted by Maylander
I was a bit dissappointed at first with NWN, since it was originally going to be the "heir to Baldur's Gate" (there was even a loading screen in BG2 which said something like: "The adventures don't stop here, you can import your character to Neverwinter Nights!").

Other than that I've never been dissappointed by a BioWare game. Along with Obsidian and PB, they're pretty much the only reliable RPG developers out there, so how can I not support them?

I can't describe the disappointment I had with NWN1. First of all, yes, you can't even import your char from BG2 and SERIOUSLY, there was NOTHING good about the game (I'm talking about OC). I was expecting something very much like BG2, except in 3D and 3rd edition rule. To my disappointment, it was nothing like BG2.

Sure, they've released rather good premium modules and 2nd exapansion (HotU) but hey, a lot of modules out there made by individuals are easily much more fun.

Originally Posted by Turjan
Edit: Reading over it, it sounded a bit like some elitist rambling. It wasn't meant that way. It's just about different expectations, nothing else.

Well, that is exactly what I meant. Console gamers don't have different genes, or something. Console games are just meant to play differently, namely from the couch in the living room. The controls are different. That doesn't mean console gamers are completely oblivious as to what a good PC game is or that they're all stupid kids that don't have enough brain power to tackle complex games. That should be obvious, but it's too often that people seem to believe otherwise.

There are also PC gamers that run into the The Witchers and Neverwinter Nights of the PC market for the first time and "gloat" over basic RPG features (and then subsequently get called stupid n00bs by elitists bastards ).

I'm probably repeating myself, but someone should represent console gamers before the Watch decides to abandon news reports for them altogether.

Originally Posted by Fenris
Meh, no Console-Game can ever achieve the Greatness of a CRPG - alone because of the simple controls and big GUIs… and I guess that even Dragon Age will be developed with a future Console-Version in Mind. Bioware made 2 great RPGs (Baldur's Gate 1+2) and one good RPG (NWN 1)… and after that shallow console-stuff.

No PC RPG can begin to touch Final Fantasy IX for what it does, simply because they're not a whole lot of fun if played PC-style (behind a desk). Now, your opinion might be that that particular game franchise is a load of crap, but that's exactly what is it. Your opinion.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
I can't describe the disappointment I had with NWN1. First of all, yes, you can't even import your char from BG2 and SERIOUSLY, there was NOTHING good about the game (I'm talking about OC). I was expecting something very much like BG2, except in 3D and 3rd edition rule. To my disappointment, it was nothing like BG2.

OK, I admit that importing the BG2 character into NWN1 simply didn't make any sense, and that's why I don't hold that against them. But the game was boring. It was obviously just a means to showcase all monsters and elements of the construction set. In and itself this is not a bad thing, but it was done in a very pedestrian way, as if someone had a list in his hands and just ticked of one point after the other, in sequence. That's why the campaign didn't really have any direction.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
Well, that is exactly what I meant. Console gamers don't have different genes, or something. Console games are just meant to play differently, namely from the couch in the living room. The controls are different. That doesn't mean console gamers are completely oblivious as to what a good PC game is or that they're all stupid kids that don't have enough brain power to tackle complex games. That should be obvious, but it's too often that people seem to believe otherwise.

There are also PC gamers that run into the The Witchers and Neverwinter Nights of the PC market for the first time and "gloat" over basic RPG features (and then subsequently get called stupid n00bs by elitists bastards ).

I'm probably repeating myself, but someone should represent console gamers before the Watch decides to abandon news reports for them altogether.

No PC RPG can begin to touch Final Fantasy IX for what it does, simply because they're not a whole lot of fun if played PC-style (behind a desk). Now, your opinion might be that that particular game franchise is a load of crap, but that's exactly what is it. Your opinion.

Games are different. Some work better on different platforms.

Well, the article doesn't exactly discuss FF but games made by Bioware (the Western RPG kind shall we say) and how those games have slipped in terms of quality over the years. I am a PC-only gamer (got a Megadrive as well but heck) and I don't want to diss on console gamers but for Western RPG's consoles aren't the best influence imo. Yes, they might be fun on consoles too and I see no reason why people shouldn't enjoy them there but on PC there are other expectations and it's clear that even "respected" developers like Bethesd and Bioware hardly make any effort to properly differentiate the PC versions of their RPG's (not even for basic stuff like the interface).

And yes, there are also a lot of PC RPG's that could learn a thing or two from older titles but it's not as bad there as with certain ports.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
I'm probably repeating myself, but someone should represent console gamers before the Watch decides to abandon news reports for them altogether.

I didn't quite get this. I know the smiley probably means you are being tongue-in-cheek but just in case, I don't really care about the platform. We intend to cover western-styled RPGs on any major platform. In practice, of course, this genre is strongest on the PC and thus we end up (quite happily for most of us) being PC-centric but something like Mass Effect or Fable gets full coverage.

Originally Posted by Ryuken
I don't want to diss on console gamers but for Western RPG's consoles aren't the best influence imo.

They might learn something about story. For some reason, I never found the sheer epicness found in some console RPG's. They tend to throw you into unskippable 20-minute cut-scenes. Now, I imagine that would never work on PC, but I love it on consoles. It would annoy the hell out of PC gamers, where the focus is more on combat and where you can't mash buttons, reading text for 10 minutes lying down on the couch.

Originally Posted by Dhruin
I didn't quite get this. I know the smiley probably means you are being tongue-in-cheek but just in case, I don't really care about the platform. We intend to cover western-styled RPGs on any major platform. In practice, of course, this genre is strongest on the PC and thus we end up (quite happily for most of us) being PC-centric but something like Mass Effect or Fable gets full coverage.

No chance for FF though, I'm sorry.

You forgot the recent JRPG article that was linked. It may have been a slow news day, but I (and as I recall others) enjoyed that. And yes, you reported on Mass Effect even before a PC release was announced (even though a PC release might have seemed obvious). So that's what I meant. Not that I really expected you to change your policy…

I think you're all forgetting the reason why NWN1 came into be. It was meant to showcase and present the editor, the toolsoot, and the DM client - and let you make your own modules. Just like the good old days in the 1970's…

And NWN1 actually has spawned great modules from Darkness over Daggerford to Wyvern - Crown of Cormyr.

Very late in the process Bioware tacked a single player game onto the editor. NWN1is really meant to be an editor with a game, not the other way around…

That's a very good point. I think it might have received better response if they had put the editor out early, then included some of the user mods with the original packaging. I bought it right when it came out and it took quite a while for any decent mods to come out, so I lost interest.

Originally Posted by Maylander
(there was even a loading screen in BG2 which said something like: "The adventures don't stop here, you can import your character to Neverwinter Nights!").

Is this true ? This is the first time I hear that …
But I must admit that I still don't own BG2 …

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

As someone who wasn't employed at BioWare at the time, I thought that NWN1 was weak-ish story-wise and buggy as hell when it shipped.

I'm really impressed with how much support it received afterward, and I enjoyed the heck out of Hordes of the Underdark… but I believe that the mandate for the original story changed a whole bunch of times way too close to ship. I recall something about having deep BG2-style followers, and then it was going to be an all-multiplayer game with no followers at all, and then at the last minute, followers were added back in. The team did an incredible job trying to deliver two different goals that, if not diametrically opposed, drew from the same (very limited) resource pool.

It's a great toolset. The OC was a good indication of what the toolset could do, and I had a great deal of fun when I played it co-op with my wife. As a stand-alone single-player game, though, it lacks. Everyone in the company acknowledges that (or should), even if it's not something they bring up in major press releases.

I still believe that the idea itself is simply great. This should be possible for other systems, too (my dream is The Dark Eye / Realms of Arcania ).

-- “ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)