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I've said it before, I'll say it again. My problem with Ray is that he wasn't entirely up-front about this. He carried on like S+S were gonna haul him before a Military Commission, sling him in Gitmo and sew salt in the earth.

All they did was ask him to change his site's name. He made out like it was the end of the earth, when really it's just a small domain name hissyfit.

I'm indifferent to POZ magazine and it's parent company, but I don't really care for Ray carrying on in such a manipulative and less than honest fashion.

I've shared this with top HIV activists in Canada and the reaction has been the same, complete shock and disbelief.

I'm actually appalled and am so thankfull that we don't have to deal with such bull**** in Canada.

Oh dear, we've managed to piss off the top HIV activists in Canada. Damn! Damn! Damn!

Complete shock and disbelief over the number of AIDS deaths worldwide. I get that. But complete shock and disbelief over a minor internet domain name spat?

Cliff

P.S.- Did anyone bother to gage the reaction of the bottom HIV activists in Canada, over this major international incidence of the highest importance to people living with HIV? My guess is that they simply rode this BIG controversy out.

Anyone who claims to have invented the term poz is just demonstrating how clearly insane they are. Not to mention arrogant. I might suggest that anyone who claims to have "invented" this word has a very limited history of life experience, and also is completely American-centric to think that one person, an American invented this.

Thanks, those who have aired on the side of Poz Magazine has proved how absolutely crazy. I've shared this with top HIV activists in Canada and the reaction has been the same, complete shock and disbelief.

Once again, I highlight the point. This is not about a word. This is petty power plays by people who have completely lost sight of whey they are here.

I'm actually appalled and am so thankfull that we don't have to deal with such bull**** in Canada. As bad is it may get here for infighting it is NOWWHERE to the degree displayed by those who clearly have some sort of delusional mental illness.

Oh ya, this is the point where people who don't know me try to discredit me with silly cowardly internet slanderhiding behind a screen name.

We all come here for support, and yes POZ magazine bought this site as an investment. Most of us who work, work at a place that needs to turn a profit for us to get paid. Even if you work at a gorvernment job you are paid from tax dollars that came from profit. Now this site is free, but to remain free, they need to rely on money derived from advertisers. Not a sin.

Now you are going to tell me that this Ray character is purely a philanthropist dedicated to bettering the lives of us poor unfortunate saps. PUUUULeeeze. As soon as he gets enough hits on his website he will start selling ad space as well. He would be a fool not to do so. Ain't no sin in that. Everyone has to turn a buck somehow.

However, there is something to be said to starting something completely on your own and not riding on the coattails (or flat out stealing domain and clients) of a very credible entitly as is aidsmeds and its parent company. That part is uncool. Now you are correct in that you have the right to visit whichever site you choose, but so does POZ in protecting its bread and butter. This also allows this site to be free. The last time I checked activism and profits go hand in hand. AARP has a magazine that I suspect sells advertisement space. So this entity should not be criticised for that or for defending themselves as a legitimate business.

Again when came to this website, all I got from Ray "oops sorry you you got it , come to my website" he offered no support, at all to me here.

That should tell you something, regardless of how wonderful his website is now.

It's the words "Poz brand" that bothers me the most. I disapprove of all trademarks. I knew the word "poz" well before I ever heard of the magazine, so that doesn't wash at all. I think this was a personal bullying incident - I've been appalled by the meanness of spirit of so many of the posts in this particular thread. It's made me sad, frustrated, and ticked off, too!!

I recall very few actually mean posts on this thread. If merely disagreeing with people is a sign of being mean, than I guess there is no room for respectful debate. If people are just pointing out what this guy essentially did, why is that so mean? He did come here to stir and not state all the facts and get more publicity for his site. Tell me that is admirable.

We all come here for support, and yes POZ magazine bought this site as an investment. Most of us who work, work at a place that needs to turn a profit for us to get paid. Even if you work at a gorvernment job you are paid from tax dollars that came from profit. Now this site is free, but to remain free, they need to rely on money derived from advertisers. Not a sin.

Now you are going to tell me that this Ray character is purely a philanthropist dedicated to bettering the lives of us poor unfortunate saps. PUUUULeeeze. As soon as he gets enough hits on his website he will start selling ad space as well. He would be a fool not to do so. Ain't no sin in that. Everyone has to turn a buck somehow.

However, there is something to be said to starting something completely on your own and not riding on the coattails (or flat out stealing domain and clients) of a very credible entitly as is aidsmeds and its parent company. That part is uncool. Now you are correct in that you have the right to visit whichever site you choose, but so does POZ in protecting its bread and butter. This also allows this site to be free. The last time I checked activism and profits go hand in hand. AARP has a magazine that I suspect sells advertisement space. So this entity should not be criticised for that or for defending themselves as a legitimate business.

Again when came to this website, all I got from Ray "oops sorry you you got it , come to my website" he offered no support, at all to me here.

That should tell you something, regardless of how wonderful his website is now.

Rob

The award for "Most Sensible Post In This Thread That Cogently Went To The Crux Of The Issue" goes to this one right here.

It was in bad taste to come on here and stir up shit about an issue that was between ray and POZ.com, causing unnecessary dram among board member where the prime meaning for existence is SUPPORT not DRAMA. In fact, I'm REALLY REALLY tired of the dram on here of late (cue: CSI). He should have kept his discussions personal with POZ. And now we've been spammed once again by another disaffected thinkpoz person. I say, at what point do we just delete these postings.

Imagine the poor sole who logs in here for the first time. The first time I logged in some poster was threatening suicide, and in 12 hours it turned out to be fake, and a odd attempt for attention. It turned me off from posting here for 3 months -- let's CONSIDER THESE TYPES OF SCENARIOS.

As far as thinkpoz... I'm sure it is not malicious, but really how hard is it to change the name to "thinkpositively.com" Same thing really... less drama.

I mean, the guy spammed the board for months about his site, but offered NIL about his own personal experience and offered little to the board. I don't know... I just feel uncomfortable with this ray guy though his aims seem laudable.

It's all rather unfortunate, and now the damage is done. Like all thing it's the mature WAY such issue are handles, and I see little of that by him.

And now we have iMec posting with incessant condescending posts and personal attacks. Lovely way to prove our point, some of which I agree with but am put off by your vitriol.

LOL, this site thrives on DRAMA.

I'll admit I've contributed more than my fair share to it too!

I would argue that another site could easily pop up and have more advanced technical features that appeal to consumers and could be 100% free as well. So what if Ray does get one or two sponsors for his site.

My complaint is that Poz magazine feels they apparently own all of us with their "trademark". I don't know if they will start targeting people on gay.com with names like dirtypozguy or pozman or any number of individuals.

Personally, I think he's above it all and hasn't bothered to come back here to address this further. Why would he?

I think this is a good site only because of the large number of members and the moderators.

As a consumer if something else comes along better with chat options and other features I like come along I'd likely choose to deal with that. This has nothing to do with Ray's attempts or his site which I like and signed up for. I'm talking about medical/ health issues etc. which this site covers.

Anyways, I doubt we'll see much from Poz magazine trying to shut down a free dating site cause they OWN POZ and all of us. I would hope not cause that would be a shame.

I'd hate to think that I only had one company to come to for all my HIV issues. And let's face it, the poz dating site sucks!

Ray is the new George Bush. I think I'll just start blaming him for everything.

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Well... I've been around the block for +15 years with HIV and frankly I can't recall seeing the word "POZ" until I saw the magazine at a support group. And it's impressive that they send people subscriptions who could otherwise NOT afford it.

I may be wrong though... maybe the word was in use before then. Still considering all the good they've done with their publication over the years (and yes, there once was a time when there was little to no information for us all to read) I do tend to cut them some slack.

I ask again: What's so hard with changing the name to "thinkpositively"?

I actually like your suggestion, but that domain is already taken. Clearly, Thinkpoz.com wasn't and the magazine should have thought about that ahead of time and should consider other domains if they feel it's a real problem.

Someone else suggested Thinkpos.com. That is also taken.

You know I had plugged my own support group here, not fully understanding the rules either. Ann didn't jump all over me for it, but simply moved it to another appropriate forum. A few people questioned my motives too. I just thought it would be nice if people had an alternative and wanted to welcome them. It's the 2nd group I've started on Myspace and I don't make a dime out of it. Although I have had advertisers and spammers pop in to promote every cause under the sun including a few HIV drug companies. I delete them. If someone offered to pay me for a banner I might accept.

I understand the protective nature when you have a group of people. I'm very protective of my little group and I'm not trying to compete with this site at all even though mine is more of an HIV discussion group and not a dating site. I'm not sure if the name I came up with is infringing on anyone's "trademark" and frankly I don't care. I know people have found support and friendship and that's all that matters. For a long time I kept the group private, now it's open to the public. I spent a LOT of personal time and effort doing what I did and I can relate to this situation.

Where the problem lies for me is the idea that POZ magazine feels it can bully everyone else because of their power. I've not heard anything from anyone there, but the one representative. To me it seems as though they have become the Kremlin of the HIV/AIDS community.

So it remains to be seen if they will continue on that path or take the higher road. My recommendation would be they let it go!

You know, I don't get why people are assuming that POZ is suing anyone or bullying anyone. All they did was ask Ray if he would consider changing the name of his site and offer him a subscription to the magazine.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

You know, I don't get why people are assuming that POZ is suing anyone or bullying anyone. All they did was ask Ray if he would consider changing the name of his site and offer him a subscription to the magazine.

Tempest in a teacup...

Ann

A-FUCKING-MEN! Thank you Ann. I've tried to shout that at every turn!

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Hmm, maybe it's an evil conspiracy created by Jerry Bruckheimer? What's next CSI:POZCITY?

Ann,

Thanks for your point of view. I guess I was most disturbed by this Mr. Scrub's commentary earlier on about defending a "trademark". That was the point that bothered me.

If you can believe it when I wrote my blog about how I got HIV I was threatened with litigation. Because one of the people left unamed in my story felt it was damaging to her singing career and allegedly someone figured out who she was. Anyways, was a stress headache. I left the story as it was and ultimately her case was so ridiculous I guess she couldn't even get on People's Court.

Frankly, I think if someone from Poz magazine would just come out and say they aren't suing him I think the topic would drop off.

You know, I don't get why people are assuming that POZ is suing anyone or bullying anyone. All they did was ask Ray if he would consider changing the name of his site and offer him a subscription to the magazine.

Tempest in a teacup...

Ann

Indeed... but you know Ann. Folks like to invent things in their heads and that drama factor is so ingrained. I just don't see it as that big of a deal. Everyone is linking this to Karl Rove motives.

Thanks for your point of view. I guess I was most disturbed by this Mr. Scrub's commentary earlier on about defending a "trademark". That was the point that bothered me.

If you can believe it when I wrote my blog about how I got HIV I was threatened with litigation. Because one of the people left unamed in my story felt it was damaging to her singing career and allegedly someone figured out who she was. Anyways, was a stress headache. I left the story as it was and ultimately her case was so ridiculous I guess she couldn't even get on People's Court.

Frankly, I think if someone from Poz magazine would just come out and say they aren't suing him I think the topic would drop off.

But they have Wesley! It's been explained that this isn't a proceeding before the High Court, just a simple request from Poz that Ray change the name of his site. It's also been explained that Poz magazine and it's parent company have an obligation to protect their trademark.

Ray just has to deal with it. Poz magazine got there first and has a legal right to use the term "poz.com" for running a magazine and a website about HIV/AIDS. Ray's even been allowed to recruit members from here to his show.

This would all go away if Ray stopped being such a prima donna (and a deceitful one at that) by simply changing the name of his damn site and saying "Yes thankyou. I would like a free subscription to your magazine. You're very kind to offer it."

Given that Ray is an attorney he should have known better in the first place.

You all must realize that every time a new message is left in this thread, another person opens it?

IMHO, if no one ever replied to Rays thread, there would have been no "drama". But as long as this thread continues, the very people who are complaining about the drama are the ones who are perpetuating it.

Matty the Damned couldn't give a rat's arse if the drama dies down or not. It's an issue to prattle on about and that's what forums are all about.

Similarly I couldn't give a shit if people do or don't join Ray's site. People are free do whatever they see fit in such matters.

Lastly, I am not the slightest bit concerned if Ray does end up in a legal cat-fight with the crowd who run S+S and gets rubbed out. The internets will continue without him.

Fondles,

MtD

I'm with Matty on this one.

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Am I totally cynical in that I thought the exact same thing? It's terrific marketing to paint yourself as an underdog. Negative press simply gets WAY more attention than positive press.

When I was doing the Condom Man campaign in the Halcyon days of 1993, I recall trying to garner media/press for the concept (there was absolutely NO HIv prevention work being done in Atlanta at the time... and precious little since).

An event that we were supposed to attend was hosted by a certain famous drag personality. After spending considerable time and resources getting the people in place, putting on costumes, procuring thousands of condoms, we were told that the drag personality had changed her mind, and would not be sharing the stage. Apparently the quality of Atlanta's powdery mood enhancers were not up to their usual specs that evening.

After feeling betrayed, frustrated, angry, I then decided to use it to the best PR advantage. Meaning, Condom Man got up on the stage anyhow, and grabbed the mike, and gave my ten second spiel about taking care of ourselves and each other and all that junk. Security for the enraged drag personality then tackled me (remember, I am wearing a superhero costume, complete with mask, cape, yellow gogo boots and a codpiece that could put out an eye) and dragged me from the stage.

Which I had absolutely counted on happening.

The next week, in two of the three gay rags available in town, there were letters to the editor about how rotten Condom Man had been treated, and how circuit parties and events, donating all that money to AIDS services, refuse to acknowledge the unprotected sex prevalent at their events. And are very squeamish about even promoting condoms and safer sex.

Were I allowed the original game plan, which was to deliver the same ten second spiel, hand out some condoms, then walk away, NO ONE would have noticed. Anything I said would have gotten totally lost and dismissed by the crowd as lip service. But man, throw me on the ground and rough me up a little, and suddenly, albeit briefly, people were talking about safer sex and the hypocrisy of the community.

It was spur of the moment, but from a PR standpoint, it was brilliant. I keep waiting for similarly brilliant flashes. Apparently, they are few and far between for some of us. But wow, that was one.

I have absolutely no opinion on the particulars of this thread. But I do see a terrific opportunity when someone takes advantage of it, intentionally or otherwise. And this thread is one of those moments. Kudos at least for that.

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"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

While I am not a copyright/trademark attorney, I have had to deal with the "sticky" situations that surround trademarking.

POZ magazine may have trademarked the "word" POZ, but they can't trademark the three letters and prevent them from ever being used in that successive order. The website in question is "thinkpoz" - run together, all one word - a new and different word. It, therefore would not be a copyright or trademark infringement, from my understanding.

Case in point, my employer has several software package called Advantage_______ The only way we could trademark these names was to run the Advantage and the following word together into one word. We couldn't trademark the word Advantage.

<<Perhaps he did... Controversy spawns interest. I believe thinkpos new membership doubled this week.(Around 200 new users.)>>Am I totally cynical in that I thought the exact same thing? It's terrific marketing to paint yourself as an underdog. Negative press simply gets WAY more attention than positive press.

OK. So, if I say something like, "POZ magazine cockblocks me everytime I try to get laid," can I expect to gain around 200 new sex partners?

Hmm.

It's worth a shot.

POZ magazine cockblocks me at everytime I try to get laid. They don't want me to have the dirty el sexo ever, and they told me that if I did, they would sue me.

While I am not a copyright/trademark attorney, I have had to deal with the "sticky" situations that surround trademarking.

POZ magazine may have trademarked the "word" POZ, but they can't trademark the three letters and prevent them from ever being used in that successive order. The website in question is "thinkpoz" - run together, all one word - a new and different word. It, therefore would not be a copyright or trademark infringement, from my understanding.

Case in point, my employer has several software package called Advantage_______ The only way we could trademark these names was to run the Advantage and the following word together into one word. We couldn't trademark the word Advantage.

Yes, I wish all the philanthropists associated the best of luck with their plight in trademark and copyright infringement. Still, none came forward to face the topic directly. I suspect some of my prior commentary may have to do with me being singled out as a "flame baiter" today. However, I haven't sold out my group to CSI and I'm not making any threats. Just saying! Seems like the peak of hypocrisy to me!

I found it appalling I was singled out publically without given an opportunity to defend my statements by Peter himself locking the thread. I think that pretty much proved my point before.

Well, guess I've ruffled a feather or two, but I think my own personal commentary was much less defamatory then some of the wording used by Peter himself.

It's now become clear to me who and what this site caters to. Certainly wouldn't refer anyone here for help now unless you fit the preferred cookie cutter mold.

Anyways, I guess we never did get a straight answer on this topic and probably never will.

How many of us have started threads to blow off some steam? Maybe this thread was started that way, maybe not, whatever. I joined thinkpoz, which I wouldn't have known about otherwise. I joined myspace & strength in numbers as a result of reading posts about them on here. On another e-mail list, I learned about what is happening in Nigeria, with anti-gay legislation, and was moved to action of letters & phone calls (all I can realistically do, unfortunately). So I'm glad this thread as existed. I am against trademarks, ownership of words bothers me. I had a non-profit, the acronism (acronym? what's the word i'm looking for?) was BRAVE, imagine if the Atlanta Braves had sued me for trademark infringement? Geesh!

Thanks for insulting all of us with one foul swoop. I have had my share of warnings, and I still think this site is great, and worth staying for because of the people who are here. We ain't all gotta get along all of the time. I don't think I fit the cookie cutter mold of anything, and I don't think anyone is catering to me.

Controversies brew up, controversies die down. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm sure most people don't want to see you go either. I'm sorry you feel so alienated. This is still a place for support. I think regardless of the bitchy things we all say to each other, we can find something good about most people on this website. It just all gets lost in the heat of argument and opinion. See it as earning your stripe for piquing the interest of a moderator.

I am having a bad day too. And believe it or not I feel good to be able to type and surf this site.

My sentiments exactly Rob. I don't see what someone would expect to gain from insulting many of us, from Peter on down.....but I know it won't be something I quickly forget. I may forget what I had for lunch today, but for insults like this, I have a memory like an elephant.

Alan

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"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Thanks for insulting all of us with one foul swoop. I have had my share of warnings, and I still think this site is great, and worth staying for because of the people who are here. We ain't all gotta get along all of the time. I don't think I fit the cookie cutter mold of anything, and I don't think anyone is catering to me.

Controversies brew up, controversies die down. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm sure most people don't want to see you go either. I'm sorry you feel so alienated. This is still a place for support. I think regardless of the bitchy things we all say to each other, we can find something good about most people on this website. It just all gets lost in the heat of argument and opinion. See it as earning your stripe for piquing the interest of a moderator.

I am having a bad day too. And believe it or not I feel good to be able to type and surf this site.

rob

Rob,

Who said I was referring to the members when I was talking about who this site caters to? You got me wrong on this!

It seems evident that the members don't matter however the sponsors do.

The question has still gone unanswered! I also didn't say I was leaving, but I certainly won't be contributing nearly as much.

Who said I was referring to the members when I was talking about who this site caters to? You got me wrong on this!

It seems evident that the members don't matter however the sponsors do.

The question has still gone unanswered! I also didn't say I was leaving, but I certainly won't be contributing nearly as much.

Wesley

Wesley,

So you copped a warning. Don't let it burn your butt babe. Sooner or later any serious contributor to a place like this is going to earn the ire of the Goderators. Frankly, if Ann isn't mad at you most of the time, you're just not making an effort dear.

Matty the Damned has had one or two himself you know.

Rob, as usual, makes an excellent point. He's a wise chap.

If I may offer my own piece of gratuitous advice, it would be to avoid absolute statements like "I certainly won't be contributing nearly as much." These are almost never true. Just go about your business as always. Things will be cool.

There are no unanswered questions. Poz.com doesnt comment on this type of stuff in a public forum. NO BUSINESS DOES. Ray got his panties all in a twist yet again, and stormed out of here like Leonid the Magnificent!

Im just sorry he is getting this much publicit... shit, Im contributing arent I? DAMNIT....better....stop....typi

Logged

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

BobF

It's ridiculous to think that "poz" in any way can be "owned" by those at poz.com. You'd think they'd have more important issues to worry about than attacking Ray at thinkpoz.com or any of the other sites or people using such a common acronym !

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts