Agreed. But still.... you had 9 people for a trail day. World famous climbing area 20 minutes from a HUGE city and you managed 9 people... That says a lot about the local community. I have only been to RR once and live 2,500 miles away but I picked up trash when i visited so by your logic I shouldn't feel the need to participate in organized trail days! I do participate in my local area's trail days even though its a 2 hour drive so it just amazes me people in Vegas dont feel the need to help out on trail days because they; pick up trash, fix anchors on their own, dont poop on trails or take the short cuts.... etc.

I would argue that the anchor replacement that I have been involved in is a better contribution than working on a trail. The bolts I have replaced will be around for at least 20 years benefitting more climbers than a trail that lasts a half day thanks to tourists. Have you seen the damage that the uncaring masses do to the area here? Why would I want to work my butt off for a trail that lasts until the next wave of them appears having off trail "adventures" six feet from the car? If it makes you feel superior to participate in an organized trail day so that you can pat yourself on the back in front of others, go for it. I will continue to do my part on my terms, on my time. I don't think that makes me a bad person.

i think everyone gets along here... there's just an agreement to disagree on the potency of trail work in regards to taking a day off from work and recreation in order to make an effective impact in terms of conserving the park.

agreed

Jon O'Brien wrote:

here's a suggestion for a service day of a different flavor: anchor replacement! (can be run on the same day as trail days to give more options) 1. someone could make a list of all anchors eligible for replacement in red rock (i'm sure that list exists already;) i'm sure the list spans single pitch 5.4's to multipitch 5.hards. 2. disseminate the list and assign a "trail day" with an RSVP feature.

great idea

Jon O'Brien wrote:

i know that Darren and I might both have an interest in replacing the final anchors on the enterprise route on challenger wall)

yeah, i went to check on moon dog and she was a lil' too over-heated. i was hoping to head up to tr solo the little joe boulder but it was baking in the sun! i started up to find you guys and then decided to just take moonie home and get out of the sun. was great meeting you too!

i was hoping to connect w/ a bunch of you guys for climbing, give a holler: 908.787.2936. text me, i never pick up or check v.m..

How true this is. We have everything from urbanite boulderers to crusty traddies in swami belts. To try to come up with consensus is never going to happen. I would argue that most climbers would like to make a positive contributions to the community, the real catch is agreeing about what a positive contribution is. Just look at the Robber's Roost chain debacle. robber's roost chain draw mess

p.s. still no takers on my halloween idea, eh? i've been pushing that one for years, i used to try to get that going in the gunks as well. i'm thinking i'm one of the only people that is actually psyched on that idea. i still think that all the pictures from a day of climbing in costume would be priceless!

I would argue that the anchor replacement that I have been involved in is a better contribution than working on a trail. The bolts I have replaced will be around for at least 20 years benefitting more climbers than a trail that lasts a half day thanks to tourists. Have you seen the damage that the uncaring masses do to the area here? Why would I want to work my butt off for a trail that lasts until the next wave of them appears having off trail "adventures" six feet from the car? If it makes you feel superior to participate in an organized trail day so that you can pat yourself on the back in front of others, go for it. I will continue to do my part on my terms, on my time. I don't think that makes me a bad person.

You keep repeating yourself. Thats great you help out by replacing anchors and picking up trash but that doesnt mean they couldnt have used more than 9 people for a trail day. All I am saying is thats sad the local community doesn't have more appreciation and cant be bothered to show up at a trail day. (I know trail days are for gumbies and it is so much more hardcore to replace anchors) Plenty of gumbies mess up anchors top roping through them so b y your reasoning you shouldnt bother with them either.

You keep repeating yourself. Thats great you help out by replacing anchors and picking up trash but that doesnt mean they could have used more than 9 people for a trail day. All I am saying is thats sad the local community doesn't have more appreciation and cant be bothered to show up at a trail day. (I know trail days are for gumbies and it is so much more hardcore to replace anchors) Plenty of gumbies mess up anchors top roping through them so b y your reasoning you shouldnt bother with them either.

you keep repeating yourself as well. I'm not saying one is more hardcore than the other, those are your words. My argument is not gumbie vs. hardcore (again your words). My argument is that our area is overrun with non climbers who wreck all the hard work that the climbers do. Does anyone remember the results of the last trail day out at the pullouts? use trails please thread The tourists just wrecked the joint. As far as replacing anchors that our newer climbing friends use often (you used the elitist term "gumbie" to refer to them) I feel that it is my responsibility as an experienced climber to educate them on the proper use of the fixed hardware, and to replace them when it seems time. I see from your posts here and on other threads that your main contribution is not on trail days, but in handing down judgement about things in which you are not directly involved.

yeah, i went to check on moon dog and she was a lil' too over-heated. i was hoping to head up to tr solo the little joe boulder but it was baking in the sun! i started up to find you guys and then decided to just take moonie home and get out of the sun. was great meeting you too! i was hoping to connect w/ a bunch of you guys for climbing, give a holler: 908.787.2936. text me, i never pick up or check v.m.. jon

You keep repeating yourself. Thats great you help out by replacing anchors and picking up trash but that doesnt mean they couldnt have used more than 9 people for a trail day. All I am saying is thats sad the local community doesn't have more appreciation and cant be bothered to show up at a trail day. (I know trail days are for gumbies and it is so much more hardcore to replace anchors) Plenty of gumbies mess up anchors top roping through them so b y your reasoning you shouldnt bother with them either.

Dexter - you are the one that keeps repeating yourself with the "you guys are pathetic, we care so much more at the Red than you do at Red Rock"

1) It's a small climbing community here that has accomplished a lot with the manpower we have. Just because of a weak turnout on a trail building day doesn't mean the local community doesn't contribute to the upkeep of RR. There is a lot of work, both organized and privately that gets done for climbing in Red Rock.

2) Darren has contributed a ton to RR, especially to people like you, that really don't have a clue, by organizing all of the relavent information and commonly asked questions into one sticky on this forum.

3) You keep referencing GiGi's comments about more people being at beer night than the trail project. Beer night, like service projects, have been a bit hit and miss and usually the largest beer nights(unlike the largest service projects) have a large turnout of people from out of town.

So, a little constructive critism is welcome, but dude, either get off your high horse or ride in into vegas and help out.

Doug - Thanks for your support of my efforts, however, I wouldn't say that putting together a thread of info was that big of a contribution. I do hope it is helpful to some though. What a lot of people seem to forget is that Red Rock doesn't just draw climbers. In fact, the BLM site claims over a million visitors every year. I don't think that the climbing community here should be held responsible for the maintenance of trails used by this many people. It also wouldn't surprise me if the same people who are blasting our "community" for a weak trail day probably don't even think twice about where the shiny new Mussy hook top anchors came from when they clip them. I would also bet that these same people wouldn't realize that the 3/8" bolt they are clipping was a 1/4" death trap before members of our community fixed it up. I would also bet that these are the same people that whine when a bolt spins and wonder why "they don't fix that."

. What a lot of people seem to forget is that Red Rock doesn't just draw climbers. In fact, the BLM site claims over a million visitors every year. I don't think that the climbing community here should be held responsible for the maintenance of trails used by this many people."

Is our local climbing community really "held responsible" for the maintenance of trails in RR? If so, our small group of local climbers shouldn't be "held responsible" for all of RR's trail maintenance, as we don't have the manpower anyway. That would be ridiculous. If the BLM seriously does expect it, it's probably because a "big" user group of RR does happen to be climbers, mostly from out of town, right? Out of those millions of tourists, how many get out of their cars? Yes, they trail braid the shit out of the first two pull-outs, but less so in the canyons. They're much more careful to "stay on trail" for fear of getting lost, or bitten by a snake. Seriously. And I know that the RR hiker groups, and Friends Of Red Rock Canyon do more than their fair share already with trail work. I don't see what the big deal is with climbers pitching in on trail work once, or twice a year to show our faces, yes PR, if we may.

That being said, I really appreciate all the work you do, Darren, and others to make climbs safe, but to the outside world, that only looks like we're "taking care of our own", and not a team player with other user groups. But we shouldn't give a fuck, I suppose. We're bad ass climbers who have better things to do. And to be honest, 75% of the year I don't give a flying fuck either in what folks say, or do with their lives.

GiGi - my beef was with some out of towner (Dexter) suggesting that locals don't feel a sense of responsibility toward RR, and don't do their fair share. All I was saying is that there is more than one way to give back.

Well I was just thinking that if we local climbers canít band together and take care of our valuable resources on our own, then maybe we can raise some cash, have a bake sale or something and create our own shovel ready projects and hire our own trail crew. God knows the BLM wonít get any trail work done, so maybe we should put our money where our mouths are and get people back to work. Hmmm. Iím not sure where we could find tough workers willing to do hard work in this heat, though.

Maybe we can find some help from the local feral population?

Burro want a carrot?

Nah, I donít think the burros would give a crap about maintaining our trails.

Burro Butt

Maybe we can find a local, out of work mortgage lender, perhaps? There should be a few of those in town looking to make a quick buck?

Corporate drone with axe

Or how about a liberal politician or two? They seem to always be talking about the environment?

Looking for a shovel ready project.

How about her? Seems like SHEíD like to turn some dirt in return for, I dunno, a loaf of bread or something??

Willing to do trail work for a loaf of bread...

I think we might be on to something. Letís pool our resources and pay some guys to do our landscaping.

Possible trail workers?

How about every time we enter Red Rock we pay a small fee at some sort of toll booth. Then maybe we can take the money and pay some people to maintain the trails for us?? Anybody know someone thatís willing to collect the money for us??

Darren, you've been had. On another forum a buddy of mine pointed out an amazing coicidence between the dates of the last postings of Eric Dorsey [booted] and the first of your new pal Dex, which for you film buffs is the name of the junkie fuckup from the film Aspen Extreme. I guess since I haven't been posting much he found a new boytoy. Sucks.

Gigi, same deal. Don't waste your time, I know you've actually got something more worthwhile to do than play mental table tennis with some superfluous testicle.