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Impossibility of multiclass contraditory disposition

esyvjrt

Posted 01 September 2017 - 08:45 PM

esyvjrt

(3) Conjurer

Members

105 posts

Not sure if right now it is planned to be a limitation of is just mentioned as an example when talking about problems with multiclass, but i don't think it have sense to not be able to be a weak priest with a high condemned disposition and a strong paladin with that disposition being favoured, if is apparently contradictory or mechanically problematic should have at most a warning, like in opposition to recommended attributes, not recommended multi-class, but since the priest and paladins are not defined by their disposition, and therefore is not lore impossible to be multi-class subclasses apparently contradictory, someone could come up with a valid explanation of the lore of a character.

Gromnir

Posted 01 September 2017 - 09:43 PM

Gromnir

Arch-Mage

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7720 posts

Location:Sleeping in my office.

Not sure if right now it is planned to be a limitation of is just mentioned as an example when talking about problems with multiclass, but i don't think it have sense to not be able to be a weak priest with a high condemned disposition and a strong paladin with that disposition being favoured, if is apparently contradictory or mechanically problematic should have at most a warning, like in opposition to recommended attributes, not recommended multi-class, but since the priest and paladins are not defined by their disposition, and therefore is not lore impossible to be multi-class subclasses apparently contradictory, someone could come up with a valid explanation of the lore of a character.

disposition conflicts will be the only limits on multiclassing possibilities. so yeah, a bleak walker/priest of eothas should be unavailable based on developer feedback.

some folks has complained how certain class and sub-class combinations "do not make sense." such combos, particular for companions with established characters, break immersion, or somesuch. thankfully, the developers is a bit more open-minded 'bout such combos.

"it's up to you to justify it... if it's kewl to you, that is all that matters."

mechanical concerns is the extent o' the developer meddling with multiclass combo limitations. goal is for the player to choose how to play their character, no matter how unique or curious. the player, as much as possible in a class-based game, has the opportunity in poe2 to be choosing a role rather than having one imposed 'pon them by the developers and the system.

PugPug

Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:14 PM

To summarize, there will be one or two really contradictory combinations that will be disallowed, but you can go ahead and be kind of a weirdo if you want.

Basically like how a tabletop dungeon master won't let your character do things that throw any semblance of roleplay out the window.

Also, perhaps, to save people from themselves and their horrible builds. In Sawyer's talk about attributes (I highly recommend it), he talks about how every build should be viable. Some better than others, but you should be able to play the game from beginning to end without becoming frustrated that you ruined your character. If there is a list of feats, the player shouldn't be expected to know which ones are good and which ones are traps (I'm looking at you, D&D 3E).

Perhaps disposition is taking a stronger role in your priest/paladin abilities in POE2. It would be nice.

smjjames

Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:35 PM

Priest/Paladin multiclassing may be something that they'll go over when they do the update about multiclassing and subclasses since how that will work hasn't been gone over yet by the devs.

The problem of outright blocking priest/paladin builds that conflict with each other is that a few of them get shafted hard and several only have a few options, which is something that the devs probably don't want to do. So, we'll have to see how it gets dealt with.

rjshae

Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:51 PM

Yes, I would expect that the price of being an avowed paladin should mean that certain faiths are proscribed. Otherwise, the game would need to handle the prospect of being a fallen paladin.

In theory, you could get away with it somewhat by taking the Untroubled Faith feat, then focusing on the priest's dispositions for maximum benefit. Maybe there should be something equivalent for the Priest, so that their Holy Radiance doesn't become useless? Perhaps even the same feat?

blotter

Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:37 PM

Maybe there should be something equivalent for the Priest, so that their Holy Radiance doesn't become useless? Perhaps even the same feat?

Priests already have their own version of the Untroubled Faith talent, so there's no real need to introduce anything else unless they're removing those talents.

This topic has come up before so I don't really feel like getting into it as much as I did in the last thread, but there are paladin orders that conceptually seem like they'd work alongside particular faiths in terms of roleplaying/character concepts, despite clashing dispositions. Some of the explanations for these combinations might not meet with everyone's approval, but given Sawyer and other developers' stated interest in leaving it up to individual players to make sense of their decisions, I don't see why they should need to. It's not just stuff like Bleakwalkers of Eothas that gets ruled out (not that the setting's lore really makes that so unbelievable either); this also precludes a Goldpact paladin/priest of Magran, which seems like one of the more natural fits.

It's not a huge deal for me, but the insistence that these combinations mustn't be allowed to protect players does seem strange. Though I'm sure they're trying to fine-tune balance to avoid this, chances are multiclassing choices in talent/ability selection will probably have the potential to screw players about as hard and there's no indication that they plan to prohibit our choices there; indeed, the fact that they're planning a multiclass disclaimer may suggest that they consider the possibility of unfavorable choices in that regard a consequence of the complexity that it introduces to some extent. By the same token, I don't see why a warning wouldn't suffice for paladin/priest combos as well.

Another consideration might be that it would be strange to allow such combos without introducing reactivity based upon them, but the same could be said for Cruel priests of Eothas who don't multiclass as Bleakwalkers or Benevolent priests of Skaen who don't multiclass as Kind Wayfarers, for example.

CottonWolf

Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

CottonWolf

(5) Thaumaturgist

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Location:UK

If they're trying to make the subclasses matter more, I wouldn't be surprised if both Untroubled Faith was removed entirely. I highly doubt you're going to see a Devoted Fighter talent that removes their penalties with other weapon types, so by analogy it would seem weird if they're systematising things to get to dodge the dispositional requirements for paladins/priests.

blotter

Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:23 PM

blotter

(5) Thaumaturgist

Members

400 posts

If they're trying to make the subclasses matter more, I wouldn't be surprised if both Untroubled Faith was removed entirely.

They might be, though nothing that the devs have actually said up to this point indicates that and it's hardly a requirement for making these subclass selection choice matter for priests/paladins given their plans to further differentiate paladin orders and priest deity choices in other ways. A priest's choice in deities is already planned to dictate what spells they have access to and Paladin order is similarly planned to determine what abilities that they can select. Both of these things seem more salient to the matter of meaningful subclass-based consequences given that the dispositional requirements are likely to be a non-issue to players who plan to play their characters along those lines (which would likely account for the majority of people who are considering a particular order/deity for their character) anyway.

I highly doubt you're going to see a Devoted Fighter talent that removes their penalties with other weapon types,

I was going to say that something like that might already exist in the form of Pallid Hand, Hope Eternal, and so forth (albeit not as Fighter talents), but those are likely to veer away from accuracy bonuses for deities' favored weapons given that all the classes will have the same Accuracy scores in Deadfire. To be honest, though, buying off the penalties for using other weapons probably wouldn't particularly undermine the decision to make subclass choices significant since you'd still be sacrificing a talent to operate with other levels at the baseline level while other fighters would be using talents to gain benefits rather than mitigate penalties exactly the same way a priest choosing Untroubled Faith would be.