Abel to Yzerman

Just to review. The five BIG MOVES Tick Tock Kenny Holland has made since the last time Gary let us have a trade deadline?

Gustavsson: out with a groin (replaced by Thomas McCullom, who will never start a game for the Detroit Red Wings. Ever.)

Samuelsson: out with a groin (replaced by Gustav Nyquist...thank god. Would have been ridiculous to have him up here at the start, eh Uncle Mike? We need him "seasoned"...jesus.)

Fredo: out with a ________ insert whatever injury you want there. They'll all apply at one point or another. We didn't know he was brittle. Right? Replaced today by Kent Huskins. My personal saviour.

Stirs Shit With Big Wooden Spoon: Lost to Drago by decision, but we like him. No complaints. Yet.

Kyle the Dive: Absolute garbage. We can't even type his name. That's how bad he is. I'm positive I'll now be angry every time he leaves the bench press box.

I'm in one of those moods, Kenny. Injuries or not? This team, the state of it, is on your shoulders. You get the feeling that the goal this year is to just make the playoffs, to keep that streak alive. Is that the best we can do, Kenny? Didn't our goals used to be higher?

Money won't be so plentiful this summer Kenny, from how I understand it. Don't we have to sign Tiberius Howard and a few others? Dealing's tough these days. Gary made it so. But we don't care, Kenny. Life's tough for us all. Lots of people have hard jobs and less than 1 percent of them make as much money as you do while they do those hard jobs. Every day. So, I don't want to hear the excuses. I'm sorry but I don't. And that includes you Holland protectors.

Kenny Holland let this team slip. It's up to him to fix it or bring in someone who can. Someone with a steely gaze, a gimpy knee or two and a goal in mind that doesn't include squeeking in at the 8 seed.

Oh God… it’s going to be a whole year of petulant, short-sighted posts whining about how Holland hasn’t magically made a team win all the time in spite of a cap that prevents anyone else from winning all the time.

Is this where fans are now, every time players stink it up it’s the GMs fault because he didn’t get enough good players? That two games into a 48 game season bloggers are going to yowl about all the alleged shortcomings of a team?

Holy bleep.

You guys are going to give yourselves eyebleeds by Valentines Day.

It’s their first Lidstrom-less year in a make-believe season with no preparation the year before the cap collapses in a league where the Wings don’t have any real rivals or grudges and the whole NHL is essentially tossed into a hat where the playoff teams will get picked at random. Enh.

The best possible thing for Detroit is for every wheel to fall off all at once and for the team to suck for this one, stupid, cobbled-together last call short-ass season and end up with a top 5 pick as a result.

What else can Babs say? Put it behind you and keep working with what you’re given. He’s made no secret about what he’s wanted in the past. He really campaigned Holland hard for Brunner, seems to be working out. I think Babs has a good judge of talent. You think he wanted Gus sent to GR? When the GM signed 3 more F’s to go with your current 13 all on 1-ways, what’re you going to do? Think he even had a real say?

Work with what you got, keep getting better, sun will come out tomorrow. Playoffs may not, but the sun will.

Oh God… it’s going to be a whole year of petulant, short-sighted posts whining about how Holland hasn’t magically made a team win all the time in spite of a cap that prevents anyone else from winning all the time.

Oh God, it’s going to be a whole season of condescending posts telling us all that, even though the Red Wings are ten million under the cap, there’s NOTHING HOLLAND COULD’VE DONE!!!!!!

The best possible thing for Detroit is for every wheel to fall off all at once and for the team to suck for this one, stupid, cobbled-together last call short-ass season and end up with a top 5 pick as a result.

Oh God, it’s going to be a whole season of condescending posts telling us all that, even though the Red Wings are ten million under the cap, there’s NOTHING HOLLAND COULD’VE DONE!!!!!!

I was just getting ready to say this.

Posted by J.J. from Kansas on 01/22/13 at 01:16 PM ET

Come on, guys, look to the future. PAST this season*. Holland is setting the Wings up with the ability to actually SIGN someone worth a damn, and not have to jettison quality players because he blew his wad before the CBA was done.

Yeah yeah, he made his play for Suter, but he didn’t overpay, and he lost. A pleasant side-effect of that loss is not having to dismantle the core of the team in order to keep him.

Posted by
RedMenace
from the Church of Jesus Lashoff on 01/22/13 at 02:23 PM ET

Oh God… it’s going to be a whole year of petulant, short-sighted posts

And redolence. Don’t forget redolence, HD. Keep bringing those smarts to us. Don’t stop. We learn so much from you every day. And don’t ever think that we don’t appreciate your daily patronizing sessions. You’re good at it and we deserve it.

In other words, HD? Suck it. I have my opinions. If you don’t like them, please feel free to just stop reading. We’ll survive. Somehow.

Posted by
IwoCPO
from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 01/22/13 at 02:24 PM ET

No one’s saying that, we’re saying he’s sitting on cap space, has been since last year. Sign a 1 year deal, Hossa did, it can be done, but get the best possible talent you can, not a plug or retread everytime.

No one’s saying that, we’re saying he’s sitting on cap space, has been since last year. Sign a 1 year deal, Hossa did, it can be done, but get the best possible talent you can, not a plug or retread everytime.

Despite popular belief among most Red Wings fans, you cannot trade a second round pick for Zach Bogosian, or Jordan Pearce for Sidney Crosby. If you want to improve the defense in a meaningful way, that means parting with prospects like Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Tatar, Jurco, and Pulkkinen (and realistically more than one of them).

And while you’re at it, you will need to be comfortable putting NHL names like Filppula and Helm on that list, as well. Nobody wants Johan Franzen’s contract at this point (if you’re lucky, maybe in a couple years someone will take it that needs a veteran winger and an easy way to get to the floor). Nobody wants Cleary for more than a second or third round pick. Same thing with Eaves, Abdelkader, and Miller. I like all these players as Red Wings, but the truth of the matter is they have far more value to the Wings than they do with any other team.

So that leaves free agency. By all accounts, Holland threw as much money as possible at Suter, and made a reasonably strong offer to Parise. Does anyone fault Parise for going to Minnesota? He got a massive contract and he got to go to his home state. Why wouldn’t he take both of those things instead of just one of them? I’d have done the same thing. Missing out on Suter when it seemed like they were close sucks. But it happens. Even the most attractive franchises with the longest history can’t always win the big fish (just ask Toronto or Montreal).

Free agency next year provides a few options, but none as good as Suter. Timonen would be a nice addition, but will the Wings have a good enough team to an aging player that would likely want to play for a Cup contender? The same is true of Gonchar. There are some other very solid D that will be UFA, but those are guys that look good in the 3 - 5 slots, not the top two. So cross you fingers that Kronwall stops giving the puck away and that Brendan Smith lives up to the pedigree and status he’s achieved in his college and AHL years.

Detroit reportedly didn’t make any offers for Matt Carle, Wade Redden or Alex Semin (the last two signed 1-yr deals).

It’s hard to sign players you’re not even interested in, because you “like the team the ways it is”.

Posted by Guilherme from Brazsil on 01/22/13 at 01:33 PM ET

The key word there is “reportedly.” As deep as the Wings’ diggers are, they don’t get all the nuggets all the time.

Also, we don’t know what was said about Carle, Redden, and Semin. Maybe Datsyuk told Holland that he would stay in Russia if Semin was on the team; maybe Matt Carle *#$%@& Babcock’s dog; maybe Holland didn’t want to take a chance on Redden. We don’t know what happens or gets said behind closed doors, and making claims to the contrary isn’t even worth the effort, at best.

I mean, I respect most peoples’ opinions on this site, but I’m more inclined to side with the guy who makes a shit-tonne of money making these decisions and who actually has the inside knowledge.

Posted by
RedMenace
from the Church of Jesus Lashoff on 01/22/13 at 02:38 PM ET

Let me throw this up, err, out, there.

I, maybe all of us, have operated on the assumption that Mr and Mrs I have continued to give Ken Holland a blank check, like in the pre lockout days. That may still be the case, the lack of spending being a reasonable approach based on long term cap needs for Datsyuk, Howard, and the (then) impending uncertainty of the new cap rules.

What if that is NOT the case? Mr I has a well known desire to win a WS with the Tigers and written huge long term checks in the last 18 months. Son of Fielder last January, now $15M/ year for the #4 stater - something I was glad to see - , signing Torii Hunter for RF, signing 6 players to healthy raises rather than go to arbitration, and will probably agree to $7M for Max Scherzer for this year. The Tigers are probably as talented as anyone, especially the key starting pitching.

Is it possible the Ilitches have told Kenny to stay under a certain number because the Tigers need it?

I didn’t entertain this seriously, probably still don’t believe it, and after all the extra $10-15 M the Wings could spend will only buy one starting pitcher.

What say you?

Posted by
RWBill
from lead guitarist for The Pompous Dicks. on 01/22/13 at 02:39 PM ET

What say you?

He made a play for at least Suter if not both Suter and Parise.

And I’m guessing that Mr and Mrs I didn’t mandate that he only go after bottom six forwards and depth defensemen…

So you’re saying Holland isn’t in charge of putting the team together and always listens to the coach and players and gives them what they want? really?

Can you imagine Bowman sitting there watching a talent like Semin and one of his players saying, nah bench him, he’s got a shitty personality.. no I don’t care if he can score 30-40 goals he’s a prick.. I’m telling you Scotty.

And he was just the coach.

You think that happened with Ken Holland though?

I understand not everyone wants to come here, but outside the context of ONE free agency period, what has he done since ‘10 free agency to replace the large loss of talent on the ass end?

Posted by RWBill from the open bar on The Hasek. on 01/22/13 at 01:39 PM ET

The Tigers still have the same problem the Wings have…

They can’t close.

Posted by
mrfluffy
from A wide spot on I-90 in Montana on 01/22/13 at 02:47 PM ET

So you’re saying Holland isn’t in charge of putting the team together and always listens to the coach and players and gives them what they want? really?

No, in fact I’m not saying that at all; I was just giving examples of what might have happened, because I have absolutely NO IDEA what goes on with the Brain Trust.

Can you imagine Bowman sitting there watching a talent like Semin and one of his players saying, nah bench him, he’s got a shitty personality.. no I don’t care if he can score 30-40 goals he’s a prick.. I’m telling you Scotty.

Not the same thing, but as a team executive you have to take all things into account. Why would you sign someone who might significantly disrupt team chemistry?

You think that happened with Ken Holland though?

Again, I never said that. I don’t know why Holland didn’t sign those players, and until he comes out and says, “Hey guys, I didn’t sign X because of Y,” we can’t, with any degree of certainty, claim otherwise.

I understand not everyone wants to come here, but outside the context of ONE free agency period, what has he done since ‘10 free agency to replace the large loss of talent on the ass end?

Posted by HockeytownOverhaul on 01/22/13 at 01:43 PM ET

Patched together as good a team as he thought he could manage given the impending circumstances?

Posted by
RedMenace
from the Church of Jesus Lashoff on 01/22/13 at 02:49 PM ET

Posted by IwoCPO from Sunny San Diego, bitches on 01/22/13 at 01:24 PM ET

And look, you can call me a “Holland Apologist,” a “Holland Fanboi,” or whatever you want—I really don’t care.

Everyone has their own opinions, and there’s not a very good chance of anyone swaying anyone else. As long as you don’t start calling me names and/or belittling me for not sharing the same brainwave, everything’s fine; I’ll definitely extend you the same courtesy.

Posted by
RedMenace
from the Church of Jesus Lashoff on 01/22/13 at 02:55 PM ET

Why would you sign someone who might significantly disrupt team chemistry?

Because the current team chemistry isn’t that of a defending Stanley Cup champion, it is that of a team that has taken a step back each of the last couple years ending the last season as a 5th seed, making a first-round playoff exit.

He hasn’t exactly been using his chemistry set to turn lead into gold lately, so maybe “disrupting team chemistry” shouldn’t be what he’s worried about.

Despite popular belief among most Red Wings fans, you cannot trade a second round pick for Zach Bogosian, or Jordan Pearce for Sidney Crosby.

Sure you can… just wait 17 years and they’ll be happy to give you Zach Bogosian for a 2nd-rounder.

The idea that Kenny’s failure to shore up the D is limited to this offseason and what he tried & failed or flat-out didn’t do kind of forgets that Holland has been the Red Wings’ GM for a long time. The Rafalski retirement kind of caught us by surprise. The Stuart homesickness probably wasn’t something which could be foreseen, but any GM who isn’t constantly working on keeping the cupboard stacked (and fresh) with both forward and defensive prospects doesn’t really get a pass when it’s time to open up that cupboard and it’s bare.

Yes… 20 years of low draft picks and 20 years of being the team that nobody wants to improve by trading prospects to hurts things. Those are all very nice excuses and are valid as well.

Ironically, all of the names mentioned in the OP (with the exception of Quincey) aren’t make or break players. In fact, the players who should be counted on aren’t all playing.

Holland seems to believe that overall organizational depth is the best way to go. Can’t bring up Nyquist and Tatar, we don’t have anyone behind them good enough for replacements in case of injury, we have to re-sign Bertuzzi and Samuelsson.

Holland has fallen behind the times, when the cap was first introduced he did some amazing things. Brought in scrap heap guys like Samuelsson, Lilja and Cleary. Brought up guys like Lebda who excelled in certain situations. But Holland never evolved since then - he’s still holding onto the guys like it’s 2006. Other teams are getting it, bring in the youngsters who can play, get the most value out of them before you have to make a decision.

Bertuzzi and Samuelsson have plateaued, we know what they bring and having them play over the kids is ridiculous - especially since the kids can produce nearly the same right now.

I think we all know Holland was in on Suter, was in on Nash and Weber - but he has to pull the trigger, overpay to get the things we desperately need. I wonder if we miss the playoffs this year if it’ll be enough - or if we’ll bring back the old core and continue trending down.

Oh God… it’s going to be a whole year of petulant, short-sighted posts whining about how Holland hasn’t magically made a team win all the time in spite of a cap that prevents anyone else from winning all the time.

Bertuzzi and Samuelsson have plateaued, we know what they bring and having them play over the kids is ridiculous - especially since the kids can produce nearly the same right now.
Posted by Heaton on 01/22/13 at 02:22 PM ET

Yep ^^^^^ and they’re signed for next yr at 5+. If that’s not proof that the Holland boat has sailed nothing is*

* Quincey

Posted by
Vladimir16
from Grand River Valley on 01/22/13 at 03:26 PM ET

In spite of $6 million unused last season, and $8 million on this one.

Again, short-sighted. Unless you’re talking about signing some big-name free agent that would help to a one or two year deal? No?

Ah.

HD has a new crusade to perch himself on and condescend from.

Oh, shush. Whining about this year when everyone should have known it was going to be a train-wreck of varying degrees for everyone involved is just stupid.

Yeah, it stinks that because there’s a cap the and the Wings don’t have a D and Z in their system as RFAs anymore the cap is going to grind them down to the same level as everyone else. Oh well.

Trying to pretend that what the Wings have done for over two decades is a reasonable, rational expectation to hold any GM to isn’t any smarter. Holland held it together for a good solid 5 years into a pretty heinous (to the Wings) cap. That was really impressive.

These last two or three have been struggles. Well, guess what. The next 10-15 are going to be just as tough. Welcome to a hard capped league with large-ish rosters.

I was just getting ready to say this.

Something stupid, hyperbolic and dishonest? You? Whoa.

Obviously, the point for those interested in not being dolts is not that Holland should have done ‘nothing’, it’s that Holland shouldn’t do ‘something’ if the ‘something’ is stupid just so he can avoid being accused of doing ‘nothing’.

And that aside, hello… the cap is going way down.

In other words, HD? Suck it. I have my opinions. If you don’t like them, please feel free to just stop reading. We’ll survive. Somehow.

Back at you, big stuff. If you don’t like my opinion of your opinions, feel free to do the same. Just don’t get so annoyed when I point out you’re gripping the binky a little too tightly, if you can help it. It looks like you’re going to have enough trouble not going all Carradine from the season as it is.

Could you regale me with the established success of any of those teams over the past few years?

If I’m not mistaken, LA positively snuck into the playoffs they ended up winning, and lost in the 1st two years ago. The Rangers got to the third round and lost and and lost in the first round. The Flyers are 9-13 in the playoffs the last couple years, and Pittsburgh has gone out in the first twice.

Nobody is stringing together anything. That’s the way the NHL is structured now. IF a team gets lucky they hit on a draft pick or two and can have a really good player at an RFA rate for a few years, which allows them to build more depth around that guy.

If a team can’t hit on big talent in the draft all they have left is fighting in FA for the same guys, and tere aren’t going to be any real FA deals anymore in a hard-capped league. Everybody is spending the same money.

Over time that’s going to eat away Detroit’s historical location advantage as a ‘big market’ competitor, since market size doesn’t matter under a flat hard cap.

I understand not everyone wants to come here, but outside the context of ONE free agency period, what has he done since ‘10 free agency to replace the large loss of talent on the ass end?

The best he could. Which, as it turns out, is about as good as anyone could do or has done. Is there some other GM out there that’s done a better job keeping a Cup contending team playing at a fairly high level of competition for the more than 3 or 4 years post-cap?

Have we seen many teams stringing together two or three Conference Finals or deeper performances?

Detroit reportedly didn’t make any offers for Matt Carle, Wade Redden or Alex Semin (the last two signed 1-yr deals).

That’s exactly the kind of stuff that cracks me up.

Really, Redden and Semin? You dudes are cracking Holland for not getting them?!? Good grief.

There’s no magic wand or superstar GM that can make all the realities about today’s NHL go away, or at least not apply to Detroit.

Pretty soon the NHL is going to be the NFL. Bad teams become good teams become bad teams become good teams. Every year it’s different and it’s almost impossible to figure out who’ll be good before the games start.

By any reasonable measure, Holland has been a brilliant GM - dude just wins. His assembly of “talent” on the blueline for this season hasn’t been so peachy.

Rafalski probably caught him way off-guard. Stuart and Lidstrom - not so much, he knew or should have seen that coming. It was pretty well known Stu wanted to go back to his family, and Lidstrom (as I recall) signed a couple short term deals.

There doesn’t seem to be much debate that this years blueline is in shambles. Most would probably agree the trade for Q hasn’t worked too well, and Fredo has, unfortunately, been injured - - again.

Holland’s job is to put a roster together. Granted that is probably very difficult in a variety of respects. For the vast majority of his tenure he has been brilliant.

About Abel to Yzerman

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