Post by kerouac2 on Feb 18, 2016 22:20:15 GMT

This subject is going to take up quite a bit of media time in Europe in the coming months, even though most of the rest of the world doesn't give a hoot about the subject. One of the major national newspapers in France devoted many pages to the upcoming referendum today and made some interesting points as well as some others that may be a bit silly.

Reasons to support the departure of the UK:

1. This will allow European integration to advance at last, because the UK has been the main force for decades to prevent the subject from moving forward, fighting the euro, the Schengen zone and the cooperation of police forces and the justice system. The UK also pushed for many countries to be admitted to the EU too fast in order to ensure that the EU would remain weak.

2. The UK has been the main supporter of the dictatorship of the market economy instead of more responsible management of industries anbd agriculture.

3. (This one is silly.) The return of French as one of the main languages of the EU. It was the dominant language until 1995 when new countries entered the union and was on a par with English until the next inflow of members in 2004. After the departure of the UK, only Ireland and Malta will be members with English as the national language, so the language will decline in the EU.

4. Part of the British economy will move to Europe. HSBC has already announced that it will move its headquarters to the continent if the UK leaves the EU and many other companies will follow, either moving to Frankfurt or Paris.

5. Departure of the UK will allow France to regain its role as the most "Euro-skeptic" country which must be catered to by all of the other members in order to get things done.

Reasons for the UK to stay:

1. It will stimulate the creation of a "two-speed" Europe where the motivated countries can continue to expand the rights and responsibilities of the members who want to keep moving forward while allowing other countries to sit on the sidelines.

2. The presence of the UK prevents Germany from taking complete control of the EU.

3. The UK will continue to have a certain amount of influence in the world rather than just becoming an American colony.

4. The UK will help the EU (and itself) from falling to pieces. If the UK leaves the union, the possibility of Scotland becoming independent will increase tremendously. Also, some of the countries that were admitted too fast will be less tempted to be overrun by populism and holding their own referendums.

5. Staying in the EU will promote more diversity in Europe rather than becoming again just a quirky island nation.

___________________________________It was also pointed out that not being a member of the EU will give very few advantages to the UK while maintaining nearly all of the constraints. For example, with the EU as its main trading partner, the UK must continue to follow all of the rules and regulations of the EU or its products cannot be sold there. It could of course try to fob off hormone meat and GMO fruits and vegetables to the United States, but the US doesn't really need those things and its food industry would soon retaliate.

And of course, the UK has been whinging about being excluded from monetary decisions concerning the euro. Well, absolutely nobody on the continent (and probably not in Ireland either) believes that a country that refused to adopt the euro should have any say in monetary policy regarding that currency.

In any case, I believe that the campaign for the referendum will be fascinating.

Post by mickthecactus on Feb 19, 2016 8:32:16 GMT

Yup, I do like some of those reasons K2 particularly 2 and 3 in the reasons to stay.

So far not enough has been said about what would happen if we leave by those in favour of leaving. Those in favour of staying predict Armageddon but the truth is of course somewhere in the middle. At present I am in favour of staying but not strongly so.

Quite right about the Euro.

Ireland also has absolutely no love for Europe but does love it's money.

Post by kerouac2 on Feb 19, 2016 11:01:12 GMT

I've noticed that some of the British feel completely European and others don't at all.

Trying to scratch the surface a bit, I came across this analysis but I am not familiar with the organisation and its political colour (if any), so I don't know what it's worth.

I have noticed when travelling to other continents that all Europeans (even the British) feel much more European when faced with totally different cultures, especially when criticism is expressed about the old continent and its old ways.

Post by whatagain on Feb 19, 2016 15:14:18 GMT

Problem is that 80% of the voters will go without reading Ker's posts or any other intelligent analysis.They will vote with in mind what they heard from their mother or what they read in the DailyMirror or...

Economics will not be part of the thought process I'm afraid. It never is.

I've never understood how Switzerland could stay out of Europe, so I figure UK could get out of it too.

I think it would be a pity but being a Belgian, I've learnt about resignation - if Flemmish want to kill Belgium they will and I think they already did some good job on it - so I have no more expectation. I'll be interested to follow but actually I realize I don't care.

Post by mossie on Feb 19, 2016 15:36:00 GMT

My personal feeling is that UK should leave the EU. When we joined we were conned into thinking it was just a trade thing, politics were not involved. But now we are in we are subservient to the whims of unelected officials in Brussels/Strasbourg who dictate to us and override our court judgements and impose burdensome regulation on us. The whole thing seems corrupt, i.e. accounts not signed off for years, vast sums of money seem to be swallowed up for no good purpose.

I feel cheated because I voted to join, now I am very disillusioned by the whole bureaucratic nightmare which seems to trample over us.

The current negotiations are a charade designed to con us into voting to stay, but it all appears to be unravelling. However I have no doubt that soon we will have a wonderful settlement thrust under our noses giving us precisely nothing, and any small concessions to us will be fiddled away.

Post by bjd on Feb 19, 2016 16:56:56 GMT

I confess I haven't thought much about it, but realize that I don't really care whether Britain stays or not. It won't change much for most people anyway. Britain kept its own currency and is not part of Schengen, so it's not exactly ripping the heart out of the EU anyway.

Actually I was talking about this with some friends (one of whom is English) about an hour ago. She figures most Brits will ask to leave the EU. She also heard that it would take years to re-negotiate all the commercial/trade treaties between Britain and the EU, which is a huge market for Britain.

Post by kerouac2 on Feb 19, 2016 17:30:00 GMT

I have to admit that I don't really care about the outcome of the referendum either since it is just another case of pandering to public opinion for the people in power to stay in power. In or out of the EU would really change nothing for the UK, because they have to live with it anyway and conform to nearly all of its rules (Switzerland, anyone?) in order to maintain its economy. But if the citizens feel happy with pretending that they are not attached to Europe, that is fine with me. Nationalism is on the uprise in all of Europe, and this is just another manifestation of it. Donald Trump would not exist without all of this, because it just confirms his vision of the world.

Post by kerouac2 on Feb 19, 2016 23:04:36 GMT

So, David Cameron is happy with today's agreement and will vigorously campaign for a yes vote ('remain in the EU'). Now the 'gloom and doom' campaign can really start on both sides. End of civilisation as we know it if you vote 'no' & end of civilisation as we know it if you vote 'yes.' Carry on.

Post by whatagain on Feb 20, 2016 17:28:56 GMT

Got this from a friend - I like it actually.

'Uk in EU

Should you be member of a club, you have to accept the rules. It is unfair to request staying member of the club, getting access to the club house, to the club buffet, to the premium access of club services , but to request being allowed to enter with a jeans while club's rule requests suit, of to be allowed smoking while the club rule is non smoking. You are free to decide not being member, but if you want to stay member, respect the rules. Moreover, as a regular member of the club, should i be informed that my club gives some rules exemption to one specific member, i will definitively protest and i have no doubt that an independent court will approve my case.'

Post by mossie on Feb 23, 2016 15:06:17 GMT

Now that Boris (Johnson, Mayor of London, friend of Dave, good Tory, and only politician we have with any charisma), has thrown his lot in with the "out" brigade, things will get very interesting, and relations with Dave are already heating up. We are in for fun times, but a very difficult choice.

Post by kerouac2 on Mar 7, 2016 18:09:33 GMT

Post by kerouac2 on Apr 15, 2016 4:50:51 GMT

So, the official campaign for the referendum has just begun. The two official campaigns are called "Stronger In" and "Vote Leave."

I don't know much anything about British naming processes, but unless the two camps were restricted to just a two-word name for some bizarre reason, I find that neither name 'communicates' anything, particularly if one has no idea what the subject is.

Post by patricklondon on Apr 15, 2016 7:37:02 GMT

So, the official campaign for the referendum has just begun. The two official campaigns are called "Stronger In" and "Vote Leave."

I don't know much anything about British naming processes, but unless the two camps were restricted to just a two-word name for some bizarre reason, I find that neither name 'communicates' anything, particularly if one has no idea what the subject is.

The "Stay" campaign was going to be called "Britain Stronger in Europe" till someone noted that BSE wasn't the most fortunate set of initials. I think it's just coincidence that they both decided two words were snappier. And they could hardly be called "Help Cameron Sort Out His Party's Swivel-Eyed Loons Once And For All" and "We're Not Giving Up And Hang The Consequences", even if that's the substantive raison d'être of the whole exercise.

After all, we do understand that it boils down to a simple In or Out question, as in 1975.

Post by onlyMark on Apr 15, 2016 13:25:02 GMT

It would little affect me one way or the other. At least I think so but I'm not sure. The only thing that would concern me is the unlikely event that any reciprocal health agreements are revoked. I did wonder how it might affect my pension as there are only a few countries out of the total whereby I can get my money sent to and it also not be frozen at the amount on first taking it out. However, if I retain a UK bank account that aspect wouldn't be affected.

Post by onlyMark on Apr 15, 2016 19:45:15 GMT

Post by kerouac2 on Apr 23, 2016 5:11:23 GMT

It seems to me that foreign leaders are not supposed to make statements about the internal politics of other countries when they are visiting. Do the Obamas feel that they have to break every rule? First Michelle hugging the queen on the last visit and now Barack telling the British how they should vote about the EU.

Post by fumobici on Apr 23, 2016 6:36:52 GMT

It seems to me that foreign leaders are not supposed to make statements about the internal politics of other countries when they are visiting. Do the Obamas feel that they have to break every rule? First Michelle hugging the queen on the last visit and now Barack telling the British how they should vote about the EU.

Post by patricklondon on Apr 23, 2016 7:52:30 GMT

His latest outburst has only served to add fuel to the fire within the right (if you hadn't realised, this entire referendum campaign is all about how the Tory Party is to manage and conduct itself, a continuation of the Thatcherite wars; Johnson sees himself as Henry VII in all of this, others don't):

Boris Johnson is a former editor of this newspaper, and as such has the right to be treated with a courtesy Spectator journalists do not normally extend to politicians who do not enjoy his advantages.

I am therefore writing with the caution of a lawyer and the deference of a palace flunkey when I say that Johnson showed this morning that he is a man without principle or shame. He is a braying charlatan, who lacks the courage even to be an honest bastard, for there is a kind of bastardly integrity in showing the world who you really are, but instead uses the tactics of the coward and the tricks of the fraudster to advance his worthless career.