The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

Comments

@Kheldorn.5123 said:
It's very easy. There were no raids, tryhard minority was complaining they want challenging content, boom there are raids now
It has nothing to do with metrics as metrics before were clear - 0% of players were playing raids

Do you remember entire websites dedicated to dungeon/fractal speed clear records?
The same with low-man/solo attempts at the same content?
People reaching fractal level 99 before Heart of Thorns, you know when going above 50 was way harder than any of the new Fractals we got so far.

It's all about metrics and the metrics shown that for many many years this hardcore community of speed clears and solo attempts was staying with this game even though they got no updates. They were releasing a new expansion and added content in said expansion for that super part of the community that stayed with the game even though they were neglected for years. While other try hard casuals quit on the first sign of something they can't reach.

Remember how Raids exceeded expectations? Yes, the expectation was that tiny hardcore community would play Raids but instead they got way more interested in Raids, because this time it was properly designed content and not something that required the players to find artificial ways of making it challenging.

Everything about the addition of Raids was in metrics and not on forum whining.

There were more PvP tournaments than raid tournaments in last 2 years. Based on metrics PvP should be supported more than raids

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

@Cyninja.2954 said:
Okay let's take this slow. You do realize the forum represents maybe 1-5% of the total player base? Even if we were to add reddit to that number.

You do realize that each of those points will have seen massive player numbers and player respons in game (or on the digital sales) which will have been congruent to forum activity?

Now add 1+1 and get 2. Forums are a way to small fraction of the total player base to get anything done unless backed by numbers and data.

Yes, that was precisely my point. The interpretation devs add to the metrics they see is quite often skewed by vocal majorities from sources on which only a tiny minority of the total players ever say anything (and, what is worse, a minority that's not a good representation of the community at large). Thay may see the numbers (from their famous "metrics"), but numbers alone are not enough. They need to understand the reasons behind those numbers. And often at this point they hear only a part of the story.
The more voices they hear, the better informed they'll be.

@maddoctor.2738 said:
Do you remember entire websites dedicated to dungeon/fractal speed clear records?
The same with low-man/solo attempts at the same content?

Yes. Those are not metrics. Those however are very good examples of one group of players being overrepresented in communication media. Anet could see those sites, and think "there are people interested in that", but saw no sites dedicated to casual running of the very same content, so they couldn't compare anything. They had only one side of the story.

And that mode was not based on metrics, which is partly why it has ended as such a flop. It was a result of GvG crowd asking Anet to implement that mode, and Anet misunderstanding what the players really wanted. If any metrics were even used for this fiasco, it's clear that didn't really work all that well.

The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

They are metrics. The same players who run those also gave their data in-game, or you think they faked all those?
The casuals could always run the old dungeons, they were really easy you know. But the only players running dungeons were those hardcore few.

And that mode was not based on metrics, which is partly why it has ended as such a flop. Nobody really asked for it.

You are wrong here
Stronghold was based on metrics too, some really old metrics (even from GW1)
Players seemed to like a PVP mode with Lords, and in dev words: they brought GW1 GVG + WVW mechanics in PVP.
And nobody really liked it? During the beta of Stronghold everyone liked it. Which shows a few days of testing isn't enough.

@SkyShroud.2865 said:
Complains and expressing discontent itself are forms of feedback. It might not be crystal clear but it definitely is a feedback. If one only take constructive feedbacks as the only type of feedbacks they want, then, it is truly deserved to be called narrow minded.

Some complaints and statements are empty as in, they do not even contain a point of which actual feedback can be derived. Either due to the premise of the statement being incorrect. Or the issue being brought up, not actually being an issue, but instead a symptom of something else.

This happens all the time with people, and their lack of self awareness of it shows.

For example, people that tout the word 'elitist' around without giving context for what it means, or a watered down definition of it that is completely different from the way in which the word is actually used. Therefore presenting something that is not actually an issue but a strawman that is being virtue signaled upon.

Think of it much like the recent hollywood scandals. People say the problem is men in hollywood, when the actual problem is the structure and way in which hollywood functions that allows said types of people to thrive, remain in power, and acquire power. That's irrelavent to the conversation, but a perfect example of something in which people place blame, and avoid the real issue. Both men and women were victims in these scandals.

Much like the members of this forum that come here and state there is a problem with EVERYONE BUT themselves. All while blatantly displaying a clear reason why no one would ever want to group with said person.

People need to understand,

-Not every feeling they have is important
-No one cares about your feelings BUT you
-Not every experience you have means something in the context of social issues
-There are exceptions to just about every rule
-9/10 the reason you can't find a group in this very populated game is because of something in your circumstances,
+personality
+play time
+lack of experience
+ lack of personal skill
+lack of ettiquette when dealing with others
+expecting everyone to be on your level (regardless of where it is) and so on

There are way more things i could put on that list. But people really need to get it in their head that no one cares about their feelings or wants. If you grow to expect that of others regarding yourself, you will have a much easier time.

Just because of some, you decided to shut out everything related. That is what I am getting from you. What you explained is logical but what you doing is otherwise.

'Some' is in reference to all complaints made. The ones addressed in this thread are that 'some' that i feel are vapid. And I have plenty of reason to do so given the responses of the OP's of those threads.

You are attempting to say I am disregarding them all, when i am talking about a very particular type of complaint. The ones that are especially full of subjective conjecture that can be thrown out just as it came in. Without evidence. And Even them, how am I disregarding them by criticizing their fatal flaws? It's easy to dismiss your opposition as dismissive. But you should avoid doing so when the very thing you are claiming is being dismissed, is the thing that is being criticized and responded to. It's a glaring contradiction.

Out those that you have highlighted, some did explained why but you dismiss them regardless because you consider them as not. At the end the day, what you trying to say is "i don't care, just shut up", right?

No. What I AM saying is,

"you can't expect the devs or strangers to care about your personal experiences, and that is not how you balance or implement systems for a game. Especially when that personal experience is caused because of a personal deficiency."

Making it entirely pointless to make these threads, especially to the very people they are complaining about.

But, some of these people completed it then complain about it, do they still have personal deficiency?

Yes. Otherwise what reason is there to complain? Since they 'completed it anyway'.

Remember these are the same people arguing about elitism when they say content can 'be completed anyway'.

Seems awfully hypocritical.....unless, that's not what they want.

As I have said before, complaining is a form of feedback. This is basically same as "reviewing" a raid, how hard is it to relate?

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups

There is no universal way to improve the game experience for everyone, because players' tastes vary wildly. The most sensible and effective approach is to provide different content targeted at different tastes. Which is exactly what happens in this game.

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups

There is no universal way to improve the game experience for everyone, because players' tastes vary wildly. The most sensible and effective approach is to provide different content targeted at different tastes. Which is exactly what happens in this game.

Except some parts, mechanics or style of content is bleeding into another, which is already being discussed in proper thread

Basically, this thread is OP complaining about other players complaining. How about he focuses on providing feedback about things he cares about and leaves people to provide their feedback? At the end of the day it's not for OP to decide who is allowed to post and who's not

@Rennie.6750 said:
Believe it or not, this is exactly the experience some are looking for if you read their posts. And their wishes aren't less legitimate than yours.

Legitimate? Sure. Appropriate for the content as its designed? I hope you can see that's not the same.

We're human; we want what we want, rational or not. That doesn't mean the game would be better if it catered to our specific interests. So while all preferences might be equally valid as preferences, not all are equally influential in terms of influencing the direction of future changes. (And that's before considering costs.)

Fractals are intended to be the most challenging 5-person content and raids the most challenging of any content. As a result, they won't be suitable for every play style, nor every player, nor every build or team comp.

You're right, not everyone's preference will be catered to. Developer always needs to choose who they're going to favour and to what degree. It's just that hardcore group preferences are usually overfavoured in most games, not because it's good for the game, but for the simplest reason that this group is always overrepresented on all kinds of communication media. Devs are more likely to cater to hardcores, because often hardcores are the only group whose voice is heard. The same is true for what the content is designed for - as we have seen, what anet thinks is "most appropriate" can change depending on what they believe is what community wants. If devs will notice that the voice of community they've heard so far is not the only voice, that may change. And as Rennie said, in the end everyone's wishes are equally legitimate. And while some may not be appropriate for the content as designed now, it doesn't mean they won't become appropriate if the devs can be encouraged to change that design.

It's not like the hardcore crowd that now denies others the right to complain didn't pull that off before with great success for them.

I sincerely doubt that forum activity is a major factor in developer decisions unless literally the entire forum is a blaze and then this will certainly be reflected in player activity.

I'd wager what does shape decisions is metrics. Metrics on player activity, metrics on how many players successfully complete content, metrics on gold/hour (wealth) gained, metrics on classes played, metrics on skills/builds used, etc.

So how metrics made developers decide to introduce mounts?

Forums in any form are main way to influence developers. Because metrics say what you do without any explanation why you do things this way

Probably the same metrics which made them introduce raids and fractals as challenging content (and asceneded gear beyond exotic gear). Very likely the result of watching marketcompetitors as well as taking a risk. Also a direct result of the previous approach not working or not working well enough.

Sure, mounts were introduced as a direct result of forum activity. That's how game developement works... oh wait.

Character slot for HoT accounts for veterans

Mounts

SAB

just few examples of direct result of forums activity

That's how game dev works, exactly. If it wasn't like this they would never created this place or took their time to interact with players via social media

This is nothing how game dev works. Take my word for it, I've been a game developer in the last 14 years

You are not a dev for this game

You said "this is how game dev works", not "this is how game dev works for this game". Not to mention assuming game dev works differently for this particular game would be unnecessary assumption and would therefore need you to prove it. In any case, your original statement is false.

Actually you claiming being a dev is only a claim with no reason for me to believe you are in any way legitimate source of opinions

Which would make it exactly as valid of an argument as your own claim that "this is how game dev works". You provided zero valid reasoning, and you'll not provide any because, again, this is not how game dev works.

I'd also ask you why would I lie about my job and what would it gain me. But by this point is already clear to me you're just a forum troll, so I'm not going to bother.

You gain nothing but you also lose nothing. Other possible reasons are better not to be mentioned here

I think we should focus on discussing how to improve experience of the game for everyone, so anet stops jumping from current flavour of the year content to another and start caring about community as a whole, adressing different player groups

There is no universal way to improve the game experience for everyone, because players' tastes vary wildly. The most sensible and effective approach is to provide different content targeted at different tastes. Which is exactly what happens in this game.

Except some parts, mechanics or style of content is bleeding into another, which is already being discussed in proper thread

Basically, this thread is OP complaining about other players complaining. How about he focuses on providing feedback about things he cares about and leaves people to provide their feedback? At the end of the day it's not for OP to decide who is allowed to post and who's not

Well, he does exactly that if you think about it. OP seems to care about raiding and fractals and is providing feedback indirectly, by ridiculing other peoples' feedback. At the end of the day, he's taking advantage of that same freedom to post you're defending.

@Vayne.8563 said:
The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

@Vayne.8563 said:
The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

What happened in Forsaken Thicket?
: Tell me what happened to your squad.
Squad Leader Bennett: Our platoon was on recon. We found something at the north edge of Verdant Brink, so we pitched camp.
Squad Leader Bennett: The plan was to scout the area at dawn, so we turned in for the night. Then everything went to Torment in a town cart.
Squad Leader Bennett: There was an explosion, then screams. I grabbed my gear and ran out of the tent.
Squad Leader Bennett: Saw one of my men lit up like a Wintersday bonfire. Sabetha and her lackeys torched everything, laughing as they went.
Squad Leader Bennett: And then...blackness. I woke up with a splitting headache, caged like a dog. Kept my mouth shut and just watched them.
Squad Leader Bennett: After a few days, I told them I was ready to talk. Said I'd cooperate in exchange for the safety of my troops.
Squad Leader Bennett: Told them they could use me for hard labor or experimentation. Didn't matter. I'd made my peace with Grenth.
Squad Leader Bennett: I was taken deeper inside and thrown in a pen with some others. They deprived us of food and water.
Squad Leader Bennett: Let their dogs snarl at our cages. At night we heard the other prisoners begging for their lives before being cut open.
Squad Leader Bennett: The sky would light up, and I would hear chanting. Over and over.
Squad Leader Bennett: Sorry, Commander. It...stuck with me.

No mention about Raid content at all, only Sabetha's NAME.
You are calling this a review of what happened in the Raid so you can catch up?

The only line of dialogue that changes is here:

If rescued Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
If didn't rescue Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.

See how there is zero mention of Lazarus? Or of what Xera was doing? That's because Bennett wasn't in the Stronghold of the Faithful and once he was saved in Salvation Pass he went to inform the Queen about White Mantle activity in the North. Stronghold of the Faithful is as if it never happened

I just see it more as how Fractals plays out. You start with teir 1 and get comfortable with the encounter, for some people it’s gaining confidence, learning how things work, so when normal comes around it’s not such a steep learning curve. When they release a new fractal they have what 4 separate tiers to test and so forth. Is the easy mode super challenging, no, but it gets you more comfortable with the encounter. Unfortunately some of the raid groups, I’ve been in do one or two wipes and call it quits. Which doesn’t give you much time to learn mechanics. I think adding an easy mode would broaden the pathway of pumping more players into the content. I’m sure some people have tried raids once or twice and get turned off, however if an easy mode would come in they might actually get an opportunity to try out all the encounters and go hey these aren’t t that bad, I’ll try normal mode now because I have more confidence, I’m more comfortable with the experience, perhaps if the Raiding community grows they may add more resources to it.

@Tyson.5160 said:
I just see it more as how Fractals plays out. You start with teir 1 and get comfortable with the encounter, for some people it’s gaining confidence, learning how things work, so when normal comes around it’s not such a steep learning curve. When they release a new fractal they have what 4 separate tiers to test and so forth. Is the easy mode super challenging, no, but it gets you more comfortable with the encounter. Unfortunately some of the raid groups, I’ve been in do one or two wipes and call it quits. Which doesn’t give you much time to learn mechanics.

These people are not interested in raids. They are interested in the rewards and don't even have the minimum amount of patience for basic practice.

Look at fractals. People immediately scream:"I can't do the new fractal, it's to hard. I refuse to drop down a fractal tier." That's again, motivated by loot greed.

Not to mention, many refuse to get slightly more organized and maybe join a guild and do fractals with guild members.

@Tyson.5160 said:
I think adding an easy mode would broaden the pathway of pumping more players into the content. I’m sure some people have tried raids once or twice and get turned off, however if an easy mode would come in they might actually get an opportunity to try out all the encounters and go hey these aren’t t that bad, I’ll try normal mode now because I have more confidence, I’m more comfortable with the experience, perhaps if the Raiding community grows they may add more resources to it.

I think what will happen is the following:

people who were willing to invest the time to get actively raiding will keep doing so via all methods available. The best one being via joining a guild

people unwilling to raid or simply in for the loot will give the easy mode a try, realize loot sucks and while you get to see the encounter, you still need to get accustomed to normal mode afterwards

training runs will stick to normal mode and so will training guilds as to not double the work required and quite frankly, when you are on voice chat and explaining the fights to people, it's easy enough already, especially the easy encounters like wing 4, escort or trio

all this will leave "easy mode" deserted after a couple of days/weeks while developer effort to implement it remains

that's not counting all the people who will start complaining about easy modes rewards not being good enough

@Tyson.5160 said:
I just see it more as how Fractals plays out. You start with teir 1 and get comfortable with the encounter, for some people it’s gaining confidence, learning how things work, so when normal comes around it’s not such a steep learning curve. When they release a new fractal they have what 4 separate tiers to test and so forth. Is the easy mode super challenging, no, but it gets you more comfortable with the encounter. Unfortunately some of the raid groups, I’ve been in do one or two wipes and call it quits. Which doesn’t give you much time to learn mechanics.

These people are not interested in raids. They are interested in the rewards and don't even have the minimum amount of patience for basic practice.

Look at fractals. People immediately scream:"I can't do the new fractal, it's to hard. I refuse to drop down a fractal tier." That's again, motivated by loot greed.

Not to mention, many refuse to get slightly more organized and maybe join a guild and do fractals with guild members.

@Tyson.5160 said:
I think adding an easy mode would broaden the pathway of pumping more players into the content. I’m sure some people have tried raids once or twice and get turned off, however if an easy mode would come in they might actually get an opportunity to try out all the encounters and go hey these aren’t t that bad, I’ll try normal mode now because I have more confidence, I’m more comfortable with the experience, perhaps if the Raiding community grows they may add more resources to it.

I think what will happen is the following:

people who were willing to invest the time to get actively raiding will keep doing so via all methods available. The best one being via joining a guild

people unwilling to raid or simply in for the loot will give the easy mode a try, realize loot sucks and while you get to see the encounter, you still need to get accustomed to normal mode afterwards

training runs will stick to normal mode and so will training guilds as to not double the work required and quite frankly, when you are on voice chat and explaining the fights to people, it's easy enough already, especially the easy encounters like wing 4, escort or trio

all this will leave "easy mode" deserted after a couple of days/weeks while developer effort to implement it remains

that's not counting all the people who will start complaining about easy modes rewards not being good enough

Personally, I would do the easy mode to learn the fights and go from there. I’ve pugged a lot of raids and it honestly gets very frustrating, since watching YouTube videos can only teach so much.

From my experience, I’ll sink two or three hours in and be none the better due what I mentioned above, not to mention all the time wasted in between fights as well as when people give up and leave, which then requires more waiting. So after going through the motions for the better part of three weeks with now only a few LIs to my name.

So then I’m like I had enough,I’m listening to the forums, I will join a Raid Training Guild. Awesome, I joined two in fact. Downside now is they tend to do training on opposite time of my schedule, as I’m on during the day. So I try the Discord training group. kitten same thing, no one on. Now I’m back to pugging.

I don’t seem to have this issue with Fractals. I see parties in Tier 1 all the time. While I tend to gravitate between tier 2 and 3. So for me,do I want the loot?sure would be nice, however after three weeks, I am no where near to even be close and no matter my effort. Luckily I have a butt load of PvP matches under my belt to obtain the pvp Legendary armor that way, where I don’t have to waste all day. The downside is, I do want to try the other Raid fights as well.

@Tyson.5160 said:
I just see it more as how Fractals plays out. You start with teir 1 and get comfortable with the encounter, for some people it’s gaining confidence, learning how things work, so when normal comes around it’s not such a steep learning curve. When they release a new fractal they have what 4 separate tiers to test and so forth. Is the easy mode super challenging, no, but it gets you more comfortable with the encounter. Unfortunately some of the raid groups, I’ve been in do one or two wipes and call it quits. Which doesn’t give you much time to learn mechanics.

These people are not interested in raids. They are interested in the rewards and don't even have the minimum amount of patience for basic practice.

Look at fractals. People immediately scream:"I can't do the new fractal, it's to hard. I refuse to drop down a fractal tier." That's again, motivated by loot greed.

Not to mention, many refuse to get slightly more organized and maybe join a guild and do fractals with guild members.

@Tyson.5160 said:
I think adding an easy mode would broaden the pathway of pumping more players into the content. I’m sure some people have tried raids once or twice and get turned off, however if an easy mode would come in they might actually get an opportunity to try out all the encounters and go hey these aren’t t that bad, I’ll try normal mode now because I have more confidence, I’m more comfortable with the experience, perhaps if the Raiding community grows they may add more resources to it.

I think what will happen is the following:

people who were willing to invest the time to get actively raiding will keep doing so via all methods available. The best one being via joining a guild

people unwilling to raid or simply in for the loot will give the easy mode a try, realize loot sucks and while you get to see the encounter, you still need to get accustomed to normal mode afterwards

training runs will stick to normal mode and so will training guilds as to not double the work required and quite frankly, when you are on voice chat and explaining the fights to people, it's easy enough already, especially the easy encounters like wing 4, escort or trio

all this will leave "easy mode" deserted after a couple of days/weeks while developer effort to implement it remains

that's not counting all the people who will start complaining about easy modes rewards not being good enough

Personally, I would do the easy mode to learn the fights and go from there. I’ve pugged a lot of raids and it honestly gets very frustrating, since watching YouTube videos can only teach so much.

From my experience, I’ll sink two or three hours in and be none the better due what I mentioned above, not to mention all the time wasted in between fights as well as when people give up and leave, which then requires more waiting. So after going through the motions for the better part of three weeks with now only a few LIs to my name.

So then I’m like I had enough,I’m listening to the forums, I will join a Raid Training Guild. Awesome, I joined two in fact. Downside now is they tend to do training on opposite time of my schedule, as I’m on during the day. So I try the Discord training group. kitten same thing, no one on. Now I’m back to pugging.

I get that it can be frustrating to find a guild that works for ones own schedule. I doubt training raids would be a thing during off hours for the community though. It's not as though you find a ton of normal raids during the day currently. The vast majority is during evening prime time, especially training runs (which is the main target population for easy raids).

You are looking for a custom solution to your problem which:

might not even be viable

has more to do with you playing at off hours compared to the vast majority of the player base surrounding you

could still be solved by finding a raid guild with people having a similar schedule as your own (though I agree this can be hard)

I don’t seem to have this issue with Fractals. I see parties in Tier 1 all the time. While I tend to gravitate between tier 2 and 3. So for me,do I want the loot?sure would be nice, however after three weeks, I am no where near to even be close and no matter my effort. Luckily I have a butt load of PvP matches under my belt to obtain the pvp Legendary armor that way, where I don’t have to waste all day. The downside is, I do want to try the other Raid fights as well.

Fractals are way simpler, require way less organization and require less practice to succeed (most you can just die through or get carried by 1 good party member).

I do agree though that your best approach might be to stick to spvp or wvw (more spvp since wvw also has time periods of inactivity) due to your very custom gaming hours.

It is frustrating because I have the desire to play this raid content, however I find myself “waiting to have fun” then having fun. My hope that if the Raid community grew, I would able to play this content during my time schedule. Unfortunately, this doesn’t appear to be the case and stuck with being the guy watching from the outside, in...

@Vayne.8563 said:
The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

What happened in Forsaken Thicket?
: Tell me what happened to your squad.
Squad Leader Bennett: Our platoon was on recon. We found something at the north edge of Verdant Brink, so we pitched camp.
Squad Leader Bennett: The plan was to scout the area at dawn, so we turned in for the night. Then everything went to Torment in a town cart.
Squad Leader Bennett: There was an explosion, then screams. I grabbed my gear and ran out of the tent.
Squad Leader Bennett: Saw one of my men lit up like a Wintersday bonfire. Sabetha and her lackeys torched everything, laughing as they went.
Squad Leader Bennett: And then...blackness. I woke up with a splitting headache, caged like a dog. Kept my mouth shut and just watched them.
Squad Leader Bennett: After a few days, I told them I was ready to talk. Said I'd cooperate in exchange for the safety of my troops.
Squad Leader Bennett: Told them they could use me for hard labor or experimentation. Didn't matter. I'd made my peace with Grenth.
Squad Leader Bennett: I was taken deeper inside and thrown in a pen with some others. They deprived us of food and water.
Squad Leader Bennett: Let their dogs snarl at our cages. At night we heard the other prisoners begging for their lives before being cut open.
Squad Leader Bennett: The sky would light up, and I would hear chanting. Over and over.
Squad Leader Bennett: Sorry, Commander. It...stuck with me.

No mention about Raid content at all, only Sabetha's NAME.
You are calling this a review of what happened in the Raid so you can catch up?

The only line of dialogue that changes is here:

If rescued Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
If didn't rescue Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.

See how there is zero mention of Lazarus? Or of what Xera was doing? That's because Bennett wasn't in the Stronghold of the Faithful and once he was saved in Salvation Pass he went to inform the Queen about White Mantle activity in the North. Stronghold of the Faithful is as if it never happened

Did you watch the recap from Season 1? It was about 4 minutes long to cover a year and a half. If this is your evidence it's awfully slim. Stuff happened to my character that i don't get to experience unless I raid. Canon stuff. That's a problem for me. It's a problem for other people too. And if a raider doesn't particularly care, or a person not particularly in story about that, it's not really my issue. Anet knows people are annoyed by this. It's bad enough all of season 1 is missing for a lot of people. Some people don't even start playing because they can't experience the entire story. But to me, this is less excusable.

There's a hole in our experience and the raids do tell the story that links HoT to Living Story Season 3. You can deny it all you want, but it's true.

@Vayne.8563 said:
The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

What happened in Forsaken Thicket?
: Tell me what happened to your squad.
Squad Leader Bennett: Our platoon was on recon. We found something at the north edge of Verdant Brink, so we pitched camp.
Squad Leader Bennett: The plan was to scout the area at dawn, so we turned in for the night. Then everything went to Torment in a town cart.
Squad Leader Bennett: There was an explosion, then screams. I grabbed my gear and ran out of the tent.
Squad Leader Bennett: Saw one of my men lit up like a Wintersday bonfire. Sabetha and her lackeys torched everything, laughing as they went.
Squad Leader Bennett: And then...blackness. I woke up with a splitting headache, caged like a dog. Kept my mouth shut and just watched them.
Squad Leader Bennett: After a few days, I told them I was ready to talk. Said I'd cooperate in exchange for the safety of my troops.
Squad Leader Bennett: Told them they could use me for hard labor or experimentation. Didn't matter. I'd made my peace with Grenth.
Squad Leader Bennett: I was taken deeper inside and thrown in a pen with some others. They deprived us of food and water.
Squad Leader Bennett: Let their dogs snarl at our cages. At night we heard the other prisoners begging for their lives before being cut open.
Squad Leader Bennett: The sky would light up, and I would hear chanting. Over and over.
Squad Leader Bennett: Sorry, Commander. It...stuck with me.

No mention about Raid content at all, only Sabetha's NAME.
You are calling this a review of what happened in the Raid so you can catch up?

The only line of dialogue that changes is here:

If rescued Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
If didn't rescue Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.

See how there is zero mention of Lazarus? Or of what Xera was doing? That's because Bennett wasn't in the Stronghold of the Faithful and once he was saved in Salvation Pass he went to inform the Queen about White Mantle activity in the North. Stronghold of the Faithful is as if it never happened

Thats just looking for straws imo. W3 absolutekky happened as we all know the fact that the npc wasnt there during thise events doesnt change that.

@Vayne.8563 said:
The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

What happened in Forsaken Thicket?
: Tell me what happened to your squad.
Squad Leader Bennett: Our platoon was on recon. We found something at the north edge of Verdant Brink, so we pitched camp.
Squad Leader Bennett: The plan was to scout the area at dawn, so we turned in for the night. Then everything went to Torment in a town cart.
Squad Leader Bennett: There was an explosion, then screams. I grabbed my gear and ran out of the tent.
Squad Leader Bennett: Saw one of my men lit up like a Wintersday bonfire. Sabetha and her lackeys torched everything, laughing as they went.
Squad Leader Bennett: And then...blackness. I woke up with a splitting headache, caged like a dog. Kept my mouth shut and just watched them.
Squad Leader Bennett: After a few days, I told them I was ready to talk. Said I'd cooperate in exchange for the safety of my troops.
Squad Leader Bennett: Told them they could use me for hard labor or experimentation. Didn't matter. I'd made my peace with Grenth.
Squad Leader Bennett: I was taken deeper inside and thrown in a pen with some others. They deprived us of food and water.
Squad Leader Bennett: Let their dogs snarl at our cages. At night we heard the other prisoners begging for their lives before being cut open.
Squad Leader Bennett: The sky would light up, and I would hear chanting. Over and over.
Squad Leader Bennett: Sorry, Commander. It...stuck with me.

No mention about Raid content at all, only Sabetha's NAME.
You are calling this a review of what happened in the Raid so you can catch up?

The only line of dialogue that changes is here:

If rescued Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
If didn't rescue Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.

See how there is zero mention of Lazarus? Or of what Xera was doing? That's because Bennett wasn't in the Stronghold of the Faithful and once he was saved in Salvation Pass he went to inform the Queen about White Mantle activity in the North. Stronghold of the Faithful is as if it never happened

Thats just looking for straws imo. W3 absolutekky happened as we all know the fact that the npc wasnt there during thise events doesnt change that.

What?

That's not even the issue here.

The question is, how significant and important are the raid stories and are people who do not experience them disadvantaged?

Of corse the story told in raids happened. That was never at question but rather how the story shifts between players who raided and those who do not. The answer being: barely and raid story is at best minimal.

@Vayne.8563 said:
The raids introduce the white mantle back into the game and explain the stuff with the aspect. It's part of the story arc. Even Anet said it bridges the gap. I can understand the second star trek movie without seeing the first one, but I'd still rather see the first one. As a person who focuses on story it's NOT ACCEPTABLE to me. Whether it's acceptable to a raider is 100% completely irrelevaent, since you're not missing it. You're not entitled to tell people who miss out on story that they're not missing out on something when factually they are. Whether I can follow the story or not.

What does it explain about the aspects? There is not even a mention about the aspects in the Raid.
You probably missed the White Mantle journals in Bloodstone Fen that explain everything in much greater detail.
Where did Anet say that the non-existent story "bridges the gap"?

it was in an interview, don't ask me to find it now, but it absolutely was said, before HoT launched, and frankly that's proved to be true. So much so that in Bloodstone Fen, there's an NPC you can talk to that reviews what happens in the raids so you can catch up....which is not the same as playing the area.

What happened in Forsaken Thicket?
: Tell me what happened to your squad.
Squad Leader Bennett: Our platoon was on recon. We found something at the north edge of Verdant Brink, so we pitched camp.
Squad Leader Bennett: The plan was to scout the area at dawn, so we turned in for the night. Then everything went to Torment in a town cart.
Squad Leader Bennett: There was an explosion, then screams. I grabbed my gear and ran out of the tent.
Squad Leader Bennett: Saw one of my men lit up like a Wintersday bonfire. Sabetha and her lackeys torched everything, laughing as they went.
Squad Leader Bennett: And then...blackness. I woke up with a splitting headache, caged like a dog. Kept my mouth shut and just watched them.
Squad Leader Bennett: After a few days, I told them I was ready to talk. Said I'd cooperate in exchange for the safety of my troops.
Squad Leader Bennett: Told them they could use me for hard labor or experimentation. Didn't matter. I'd made my peace with Grenth.
Squad Leader Bennett: I was taken deeper inside and thrown in a pen with some others. They deprived us of food and water.
Squad Leader Bennett: Let their dogs snarl at our cages. At night we heard the other prisoners begging for their lives before being cut open.
Squad Leader Bennett: The sky would light up, and I would hear chanting. Over and over.
Squad Leader Bennett: Sorry, Commander. It...stuck with me.

No mention about Raid content at all, only Sabetha's NAME.
You are calling this a review of what happened in the Raid so you can catch up?

The only line of dialogue that changes is here:

If rescued Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
If didn't rescue Bennett at Salvation Pass:
Squad Leader Bennett: After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.

See how there is zero mention of Lazarus? Or of what Xera was doing? That's because Bennett wasn't in the Stronghold of the Faithful and once he was saved in Salvation Pass he went to inform the Queen about White Mantle activity in the North. Stronghold of the Faithful is as if it never happened

Did you watch the recap from Season 1? It was about 4 minutes long to cover a year and a half. If this is your evidence it's awfully slim. Stuff happened to my character that i don't get to experience unless I raid. Canon stuff. That's a problem for me. It's a problem for other people too. And if a raider doesn't particularly care, or a person not particularly in story about that, it's not really my issue. Anet knows people are annoyed by this. It's bad enough all of season 1 is missing for a lot of people. Some people don't even start playing because they can't experience the entire story. But to me, this is less excusable.

There's a hole in our experience and the raids do tell the story that links HoT to Living Story Season 3. You can deny it all you want, but it's true.

There is no hole. You get more information during LS3E4 about the bosses in Stronghold of the Faithful and Salvation Pass than in the raids themselves.

@zealex.9410 said:
Thats just looking for straws imo. W3 absolutekky happened as we all know the fact that the npc wasnt there during thise events doesnt change that.

I said it's "as if it never happened", of course it happened but the story of Season 3 makes sense even without playing the Raid.
And in fact there is still the question how Balthazar got inside the Stasis Chamber that was rather never explained.
The White Mantle were feeding the chamber to revive Lazarus, but since they didn't perform the ritual, how did Balthazar appear inside of it?
The appearance of Lazarus in Out of Shadows was good, the reveal that he was Balthazar makes W3 rather hazy.

What happened with Forsaken Thicket is it revealed that the White Mantle still exist in small packets. For a LIVE release that is important story and reveal, but once Out of Shadows was out, there was very little impact of the Raid story anymore. They could've ended the Lazarus story in the Raid and nobody would care (much like how few care about Dhuum)

@maddoctor.2738 said:
They could've ended the Lazarus story in the Raid and nobody would care

But they didn't. They had to go on with it in the LS.
(besides, quite a number of people did care about Lazarus and his story - that's why Anet used it in the first place. That the whole Lazarus->Balthasar ended up as a bad writing is no excuse)

The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

@maddoctor.2738 said:
They could've ended the Lazarus story in the Raid and nobody would care

But they didn't. They had to go on with it in the LS.
(besides, quite a number of people did care about Lazarus and his story - that's why Anet used it in the first place. That the whole Lazarus->Balthasar ended up as a bad writing is no excuse)

Caring about someone's story isn't the same as being important to the main story of the game, which I thought the complaint was about. But anyway it looks like few care about the story of the latest wing, despite having an important lore character in it, so I guess we'll all be happy with future raids too.

Edit:

Mike Zadorojny: Hall of Chains was planned to be more challenging than previous raids. As with every release there are always small adjustments you wish you had made before launch, after seeing how players have conquered the content, but overall this was a strong raid wing. Because of the difficulty of raids, both in terms of the encounters and of organizing ten players, we specifically choose not to have the main story of Living World take you into them. The stories that we explore in the raids are designed to be side stories or things that can stand alone to give context to why our heroes need to overcome these challenges. Sometimes we will have the stories of raids be related to mainline events, but not witnessing these smaller events doesn’t negatively impact a players understanding of the Living World story.