Anything that is made to automatically control itself without my input. I like to be in complete control of everything possible my vehicle. The only automatic gizmo I thoroughly enjoy is climate control. Just about everything else is a nuisance.

MotownPimp

09-01-12, 02:42 PM

What is the term for the lighting strip that runs around the doors & dash? Useless and distracting.

CadillacLuke24

09-01-12, 03:22 PM

Those WORTHLESS DAMN DONUT SPARES that are good for nothing save taking up space. A full freaking size spare wouldn't have weighed much more (granted we're talking a grandma car here), held up better, and actually GOT YOU SOMEWHERE. It would have been nice if it was at least an option.

ryannel2003

09-01-12, 04:19 PM

I'm with Drew on the electronic suspensions. I was constantly worried the air suspension compressor on my STS was going to die every single time I got in the car. Before the wreck I was so paranoid that I would actually listen for it before I headed off. IMO there is nothing worse with a Cadillac with it's ass dragging on the ground.

greencadillacmatt

09-01-12, 04:50 PM

Automatic Climate Control. (Sorry Drew.) What's the matter with the temperature, blower speed, and position knobs? I can't stand not having total control of my HVAC system. :rant2:

I used to not like automatic headlights, but the Olds 88 I had spoiled me with them, and forced the lights on at dark, whether I wanted them on or not. I guess I got used to that, because now the only time I manually put them on in my Challenger is if I just want the parking lights on.

The-Dullahan

09-01-12, 05:00 PM

Cupholders are still an alien and new concept to me. My Cadillac does not have such things or GPS or bluetooth...Hell, the only gauges it has are for the fuel level and speed. I could do without plenty of today's nonsense.

orconn

09-01-12, 05:02 PM

I sort of agree with Drew on the over complication of today's cars. I never want a car, although from the looks of things I may not be able to avoid it, with a "touch screen" to set all the crappolla that comes with decent upholstery. There in lies a lot of the problem with the contemporary market, in order to get certain upgrades you have to buy packages which include gizmos and other high cost (and mostly useless) accessories that I, for one, will never use.

I am sure there are some folks, my son in particular, who question why I drive a 17 year Cadillac. I tell them it is because I really like the way it looks and drives, but I don't tell them that my car is equipped with all the technology I really want to deal with. Fortunately the accessory systems the car does have have stood up very well with the passage of time.

ryannel2003

09-01-12, 05:05 PM

Unfortunately with the way technology is going today it looks like most cars of the future will have the small windows, low roof designs with touch screens. I'm not really a fan of them either as not only are they distracting, they are fingerprint magnets. Though I have to say that Cadillac's CUE system is the most impressive system I have seen so far.

cadillac kevin

09-01-12, 05:26 PM

I could do without the touch screen. I recall a year or 2 ago, my grandma wanted to trade up her '04 equinox for an '11? model. She liked it, except the center dash part (touch screen stereo and infinite CC buttons) confused her so much that she didn't buy one. She then tried to get the last year of her generation ('10 ?'09?) But found they simply were not available anywhere in this half of MO due to popularity (don brown called around because they REALLY REALLY wanted hers (and still do) because it had (at the time) 35 or so k on it (just hit 40k last week).

orconn

09-01-12, 05:30 PM

Bah, humbug, to all that technocrap. The automakers can continue their slavery to the high side, small, window, space robbing body designs that are ubiquitous in today's new car marketplace, they can heap loads of useless techno gizmo's into every "package group" that they try and force me to buy to get the one of two accessories I really want, all to justify raising the price on an otherwise overpriced vehicle. The added weight of these body design plus the extra weight of the superfluous accessories I am forced to tack
gives me the incentive to maintain (regardless of cast) a car I really enjoy rather than submit buying an, to me, ugly car accessories I will never use and which will only cost me money if they should fail.

I would hate to be the person faced with having to put high miles yearly on a car and thus forced to trade for the latest model because the car he is driving forces him to trade it every two to three years. I find all the gizmos not just so much extra gahr-bahge, but truly irritating .... some to put up with rather than being enjoyed.

Perhaps the younger generation of techno pukes feels the necessity of isolating themselves from the horrors of decision making or the vile task of physical selection .... I guess it is for these individuals these cars are produced.

Submariner409

09-01-12, 05:40 PM

As long as it had a full mechanical analog instrument panel, an ignition key, a START button, an oil dipstick and 4-5-6 manual speeds it would be just fine. All the "stereo"', lights, warnings, electrical glove box doors, ear warmers and other bells and whistles are nothing more than feelgood "look what I got" eye candy.

"But, Sub - If it doesn't have a dashboard like Millenium Falcon how do you know what's going wrong ??"

orconn

09-01-12, 05:50 PM

My son was absolutely fascinated with the electronically operated panel on my Mercedes's radio I think it was why he wanted to buy the car from me! Now that he has a fully loaded (bought new) three year old Honda Odyssey he is pissed off that he has to pay $200. to upgrade his ($2000.) factory navigation system every two years (wait till the warranty runs out, kiddo, and your three rug rats really start to beat he crap out of all the accessories ....... it'll be time to shell out another $43,000. so the nanny and your wife can keep the little darlings occupied on their way to school and back!

Playdrv4me

09-01-12, 07:50 PM

I feel like the old-timers (and maybe some of the youngtimers) have beaten this "hate on modern amenities" topic to death, but whatever, Ill bite...

Going to have to throw my hat in for electronic suspensions. In almost every single case other than Magneride, I have NEVER been convinced of the efficacy of those systems. I'm driving a 2003 LS430 right now that has a bone stock suspension with no fancy anything, not even load leveling. It rides EVERY bit as good as the LS430 we had with air bags before. And don't even get me started on the adjustable systems in the LX470 (hydraulics by Citroen, ack!) and Range Rover.

Spending time again in that bottom of the barrel Dodge Ram and the time I spent with Gary's Sabrina has also made all of this suspension gimmick factor even more evident.

In general I am NOT against the burgeoning vehicle technologies, but what I AM against is any technology invasion that makes cars harder to diagnose and self service. If you want to have a real discussion about annoying technology lets talk about needing a computer to even change a damn battery in modern BMWs and Audi's. That kind of crap drives me nuts!

I~LUV~Caddys8792

09-01-12, 08:01 PM

For me:

Electronic suspensions & touch screens in lieu of regular buttons.

creeker

09-01-12, 08:29 PM

The main reason I sold my 97 sts was becuase of the anti theft feature, it would shut down the car for no reason (that I know of) you could go for a day or a few weeks,
then it would show up again and prevent you from starting the car, the people I sold it to ( I made them aware of problem) took it to a g.m. dealer to "fix it", they couldn't
solve the problem ,they also sold it.

Ranger

09-01-12, 08:37 PM

Dual zone temperature control. In a 5' X 10' cabin? Really?

Playdrv4me

09-01-12, 08:48 PM

The main reason I sold my 97 sts was becuase of the anti theft feature, it would shut down the car for no reason (that I know of) you could go for a day or a few weeks,
then it would show up again and prevent you from starting the car, the people I sold it to ( I made them aware of problem) took it to a g.m. dealer to "fix it", they couldn't
solve the problem ,they also sold it.

That's another good point. Anti-theft systems have grown a little out of hand. The E38 and Range Rover (and presumably other BMWs) have a fort knox style locking system called "Superlock" that not only pulls the plungers down, it COMPLETELY disconnects the INSIDE door handles AND the lock cylinder on the outside of the vehicle is electronic! So what happens if the battery dies? That's right... absolutely nothing. You can't get in... PERIOD. Breaking a window or removing one of the side marker lamps and energizing the system with an external battery are the only ways to get the door locks working again. And if you DO break the window, you won't be opening the door, you'll just be sliding in to grab the hood release and attach a battery. BS. Utter BS.

These are the kinds of "improvements" (Steve Martin calls things like this "deprovements") that are of virtually nil value. It doesn't give me some new toy to play with, or a new type of outside LED lamp or something, it merely makes it harder for honest people to get in the damn car. Same as all the insane electronics required to keep the engine even running on most cars anymore, and all the compartmentalized systems you have to scan to fix the simplest problems.

orconn

09-01-12, 09:09 PM

Dual zone temperature control. In a 5' X 10' cabin? Really?

I remember when "Dual Zone Temperature Control" (or whatever the Rolls people called it) came ou, boy Road and Track fell all over themselves for the brilliance and luxury of this HVAC system. Well it took about twenty years for it to apear on about every "lebe" car today! I could live without it!

ryannel2003

09-01-12, 09:47 PM

I feel like the old-timers (and maybe some of the youngtimers) have beaten this "hate on modern amenities" topic to death, but whatever, Ill bite...

Going to have to throw my hat in for electronic suspensions. In almost every single case other than Magneride, I have NEVER been convinced of the efficacy of those systems. I'm driving a 2003 LS430 right now that has a bone stock suspension with no fancy anything, not even load leveling. It rides EVERY bit as good as the LS430 we had with air bags before. And don't even get me started on the adjustable systems in the LX470 (hydraulics by Citroen, ack!) and Range Rover.

Spending time again in that bottom of the barrel Dodge Ram and the time I spent with Gary's Sabrina has also made all of this suspension gimmick factor even more evident.

In general I am NOT against the burgeoning vehicle technologies, but what I AM against is any technology invasion that makes cars harder to diagnose and self service. If you want to have a real discussion about annoying technology lets talk about needing a computer to even change a damn battery in modern BMWs and Audi's. That kind of crap drives me nuts!

E46 4 life??

cadillac kevin

09-01-12, 09:52 PM

I remember when "Dual Zone Temperature Control" (or whatever the Rolls people called it) came ou, boy Road and Track fell all over themselves for the brilliance and luxury of this HVAC system. Well it took about twenty years for it to apear on about every "lebe" car today! I could live without it!

When my dad rented an escape with dual climate control, he asked "why the hell do I need 2 climate controls? I'm the driver. I set the climate. Everyone else can deal with it."

77CDV

09-01-12, 10:39 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the best technology is the kind you don't see. Everything you see should be immediately intuative. If I have to break out the owner's manual to figure out how to work something on a car, it's too complicated to be there.

Playdrv4me

09-01-12, 10:58 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the best technology is the kind you don't see. Everything you see should be immediately intuative. If I have to break out the owner's manual to figure out how to work something on a car, it's too complicated to be there.

I think CUE is slowly starting the move towards this kind of natural interface but, as someone mentioned before, the real advancement will be when the automotive dashboard finally becomes cohesive with the smart-phone. This will be a tough balancing act, because not everyone has (or wants) a smart-phone, so you can not entirely move functions over that way but that's why I'm not an engineer. The advantage to this will be that the vehicle's technology will then be less dependent upon on the firmware and hardware loaded into the car itself, and moreso on the phone, which people tend to upgrade frequently. No more out of date map BS, no more 200.00 CDs, no more interfaces being out of date in 13 months etc. This is the kind of exciting technology I look forward to, not the kind that gets in the way like fancy suspensions, alarm systems and overly computerized vehicle operational systems.

CadillacLuke24

09-02-12, 12:18 AM

Hahahaha I will NOT upgrade my iPod because all the new ones have touchscreens. I want mah damn buttons, thank you!

I~LUV~Caddys8792

09-02-12, 01:22 AM

The early 2000's level of in-car technology is where I like to be. The Marauder has everything I like, with the exception of bluetooth and XM radio and perhaps a trip computer.

77CDV

09-02-12, 01:25 AM

I think CUE is slowly starting the move towards this kind of natural interface but, as someone mentioned before, the real advancement will be when the automotive dashboard finally becomes cohesive with the smart-phone. This will be a tough balancing act, because not everyone has (or wants) a smart-phone, so you can not entirely move functions over that way but that's why I'm not an engineer. The advantage to this will be that the vehicle's technology will then be less dependent upon on the firmware and hardware loaded into the car itself, and moreso on the phone, which people tend to upgrade frequently. No more out of date map BS, no more 200.00 CDs, no more interfaces being out of date in 13 months etc. This is the kind of exciting technology I look forward to, not the kind that gets in the way like fancy suspensions, alarm systems and overly computerized vehicle operational systems.

So, I'd have to have a damn smartphone to make my car work? :thehand: Fabulous vision of the future. :nono: Definitely keeping the 77 for all eternity now.

talismandave

09-02-12, 03:06 AM

$250.00 keys.

Playdrv4me

09-02-12, 03:10 AM

So, I'd have to have a damn smartphone to make my car work? :thehand: Fabulous vision of the future. :nono: Definitely keeping the 77 for all eternity now.

I think you missed the part where I said that the delicate balancing act will involve people who don't need or want a smart-phone at all. It'll be no different than the nav versus non nav cars of today for example. The difference is, those that want the more technologically advanced option will be using their phone as a gateway to everything the dash can do. If anything, it may be a positive for everyone else, since the alternative option will likely be simpler.

brandondeleo

09-02-12, 03:43 AM

I can't think of anything I wouldn't miss! :lol:

thebigjimsho

09-02-12, 03:51 AM

Dual and tri zone climate controls, FTW!

CadillacLuke24

09-02-12, 08:30 AM

I can't think of anything I wouldn't miss! :lol:

Hahahahahahaha I reckon we have a little tech wiz here :D

So, I'd have to have a damn smartphone to make my car work? :thehand: Fabulous vision of the future. :nono: Definitely keeping the 77 for all eternity now.

:lol: I like your thinking! A perfectly good reason to keep both of our older beauties!

ShapeShifter

09-02-12, 08:49 AM

Digital Owners Manuals! Some have provided new car owner manuals on DVD's, which are not usually accessible to driver or passenger when in motion. Others have them on iPads that are included with the new car purchase.

I'm not a fan of Digital Owners Manuals period. I'm a huge fan of paper manuals that can be easily accessed and read at any time...no electronic component or device of any type needed....and no electric power or charging chords needed either.

cadillac kevin

09-02-12, 12:24 PM

Hahahahahahaha I reckon we have a little tech wiz here :D

Yup. Brandon has also complained about having to *gasp* use a hand crank to roll down a window while driving.
Oh the humanity!!!

orconn

09-02-12, 12:47 PM

I have no complaint with automatic load leveling .... especially now that obesity seems to be a national trait. But having had cars whose passive suspensions were far better than adequate, I agree that the added expense of computer controlled electronic suspension systems are just another way to add cost that can only be justified by "bragging rights."

I thoroughly enjoy the functional simplicity and the visual tranquility of my Sevilles' dash boards and interiors. While I like the added touches that separate the STS from the SLS, when it came time to replace the original STS I chose a SLS for its' relative simplicity and lesser long term maintenance expense. My preference for the STS originally was really a preference for their plainer, more elegant exterior and the few extras that the interior design offered. These differences were eliminated in the last series Seville when the SLS could be had with all the pleasant embellishment and electronic gizmo delete!

drewsdeville

09-02-12, 12:53 PM

I can see how it would be useless to others, but to add on to my previous post, I also have no problem with load leveling suspension. I do a lot of towing with my vehicles, and load leveling works WONDERS for the car's handling and stability while loaded. It offers an element of security and safety. I also do not find it terribly complicated (it's rather simple), problematic, or overly expensive to repair. $1xx (or even less) for a pair of shocks? Big deal if you are actually taking advantage of them.

While I see nothing valuable in active suspensions whose benefits are restricted to 10ths of a second on a road course, I do appreciate load leveling and do not find it to be gimmicky. Others who take advantage of it will probably agree.

Playdrv4me

09-02-12, 06:32 PM

There's a distinct difference between LOAD LEVELING suspension on the rear, and a full electronic suspension system or a height adjustable "off road" suspension (absolutely the silliest of all variants). I haven't needed load leveling for anything, but on Cadillacs it's not a huge deal since the replacement is not expensive. In some cases however, "load leveling" comes part and parcel as part of the high tech suspension package OR as far more complex and expensive option. On the E38 for example, load leveling was a completely hydraulic system ran off a tandem-vane power steering pump. So if your power steering went out, your rear end would hit the ground. Then there were all the seals, piping, and the shock parts themselves. Functionality definitely DIDN'T outweigh complexity there.

On the LS430, you get load leveling only if you opt for the entire active suspension, and so on and so forth. I think the target is complex suspension systems, not simplified load leveling on the rear axle.

brandondeleo

09-03-12, 02:56 AM

Yup. Brandon has also complained about having to *gasp* use a hand crank to roll down a window while driving.
Oh the humanity!!!
IT'S SO HORRIBLE!!

What if you're driving and want to roll down the other windows? NOOOOO!!

Johnxlrv

09-03-12, 10:05 AM

Automatic Climate Control. (Sorry Drew.) What's the matter with the temperature, blower speed, and position knobs? I can't stand not having total control of my HVAC system. :rant2:

I used to not like automatic headlights, but the Olds 88 I had spoiled me with them, and forced the lights on at dark, whether I wanted them on or not. I guess I got used to that, because now the only time I manually put them on in my Challenger is if I just want the parking lights on.

There were many times in my younger days that automatic headlights would have been my demise lol.

Also not a fan of the rain sensor...when you are at that place with windshield bugs and a light drizzle, this feature mucks it up!

Johnxlrv

09-03-12, 10:11 AM

Dual zone temperature control. In a 5' X 10' cabin? Really?

When the wife was at a "certain point in her life", the dual climate control actually was a Godsend!

Ranger

09-03-12, 10:11 AM

RainSense, another feature I could live without. Intermittent wipers do the job quite well and I can set the interval where I want it.

drewsdeville

09-03-12, 10:54 AM

There was just an article on CNN a few weeks ago about how worthless Rainsense is.

ThumperPup

09-03-12, 11:21 AM

Air Bag's not because i don't like them and don't think we need them for saftey but because i have had some cars i have tricked out in the past that have airbags and i had wishes i could change the wheel style on them or add a tv to the center of the wheel but not with the airbag light lighting up

heated seats now that im down in FL

ShapeShifter

09-03-12, 11:33 AM

....add a tv to the center of the wheel but not with the airbag light lighting up...
TV!! My god what for?.....haven't got enough to view through windshield, side and rearview mirrors.:)

dkozloski

09-03-12, 01:37 PM

Luddites forever.

thebigjimsho

09-03-12, 01:43 PM

Rainsense is great. When the rain is constantly changing, it's nice to not worry. And constantly adjust.

If you don't want it on, turn it off...

Night Wolf

09-03-12, 02:24 PM

Least featured vehicle I owned was the '94 Isuzu Amigo, first realizing less, can be more. Though it lacked two things which I greatly desired for day to day and traveling convenience - intermittent wipers and cruise control.

The Jeep has both of those, haven't missed anything else. Perhaps a (proper) ABS system as each wheel can be moderated independently, at a far faster reaction time. Because of the short wheelbase there is intentionally more front bias than normal cars. Hardly an issue though.

The climate control is automatically set to outside conditions, no trip computer needed as fuel mileage is always 15 +/- 1mpg and it's got a cool sound system.

rodnok01

09-03-12, 05:54 PM

I could do without doors that have motors to close them, all digital dashes, and anything that controls 50 other things either directly or indirectly(like our HU's).

gdwriter

09-03-12, 10:50 PM

Rainsense is great. When the rain is constantly changing, it's nice to not worry. And constantly adjust.

If you don't want it on, turn it off...Exactly. When I driving across Montana in July, the weather was constantly changing: pour, drizzle, stop, drizzle, coming at your sideways. Once I turned the wipers on, I didn't have to bother with them again.

Playdrv4me

09-03-12, 11:05 PM

When implemented properly, Rainsense is amazing. Cadillac does it right, as does Lexus. BMW's rain sensor system is worthless and just gets in the way.

investor74

09-03-12, 11:11 PM

I could do without run-flat tires. Expensive, hard to find replacements, limited choices when new sets are required. Next door neighbor has them on his BMW and it cost him $1000 to replace a couple with bubbles in them. Wear out fast, etc. Just give me the compact spare and my AAA membership.

Night Wolf

09-03-12, 11:43 PM

Wipers are worthless when the water is on the inside of the windshield.

I~LUV~Caddys8792

09-03-12, 11:45 PM

I had rainsense wipers in my Mercedes and hated it. Too many complications in a simple, reliable system.

orconn

09-03-12, 11:48 PM

Yeah, Rick, they are pretty useless under water too! And don't help much in a sand storm either!

talismandave

09-03-12, 11:59 PM

+1 on run flats.
My parents van, which I put more miles on annually than I do on my own car, has them. Honda claims they have air in them, even putting a number on the dash that randomly changes from time to time to heighten the illusion, but they haven't duped me. I know they are actually solid. Perhaps rubber, possibly cement or wood, but they are solid.

cadillac kevin

09-04-12, 12:10 AM

+1 on run flats.
My parents van, which I put more miles on annually than I do on my own car, has them. Honda claims they have air in them, even putting a number on the dash that randomly changes from time to time to heighten the illusion, but they haven't duped me. I know they are actually solid. Perhaps rubber, possibly cement or wood, but they are solid.
take normal tire....fill with $7 can of spray foam....charge $500 extra for "run flat"

...genius

talismandave

09-04-12, 12:13 AM

I tire filled with spray foam would offer a considerable ride improvement.

Aron9000

09-06-12, 03:08 AM

As mentioned earlier, electronic/active suspension systems.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is the mongo huge wheel packages with rubber band sidewall tires. This is really silly on some luxury cars and big SUV's with 20, 22, or 24" factory wheel options. More sidewall gives you a much better ride and less noise. I'm fine with low profile tires on performance cars, but its silly on your Escalade, its not like you're going to be pushing the handling envelope in that.

EChas3

09-09-12, 07:06 PM

Tali-D - Cleaning out that foam once might cost more than years of a road-service rider on your car insurance. TPMS must hate that stuff.

State Farm charges me about $16 per year for that coverage and it covers a lot more than flat tires. I know Cadillac Road Service is happy to dispatch on a fee-for-service basis. It's all handled through a network of independants, anyway. (Local cops sometimes have 'arrangements' with favored tow-ers and Cadillac dispatches roll-back flatbeds.)

Run-flat tires aren't generally practical; cell phones render them to specialty-only status. Only very vulnerable people that often find themselves in high-risk situations need to keep driving no matter what. Unless you're a drug dealer or South American diplomat can't you wait 30 minutes on those rare occasions where a modern high-quality tire goes flat?

orconn

09-09-12, 07:44 PM

^^^ Or perhaps an American diplomat somewhere (most anyplace) around the world!

CadillacLuke24

09-09-12, 07:53 PM

I'd venture to guess that MANY of those eagerly anticipating the zombie apocalypse eagerly shell out the dough for runflats.

cadillac kevin

09-09-12, 08:16 PM

I'd venture to guess that MANY of those eagerly anticipating the zombie apocalypse eagerly shell out the dough for runflats.

You don't have to drive fast....just fast enough to outrun a zombie until rigor mortis sets in.

I'd venture to guess that MANY of those eagerly anticipating the zombie apocalypse eagerly shell out the dough for runflats.

Perhaps, but they're all retarded anyway

Jesda

09-09-12, 10:24 PM

I'm more concerned about urban rioting by the living. The living are always more worrisome than the dead.

77CDV

09-09-12, 10:38 PM

This is true. The living can disinherit you! :lol:

talismandave

09-12-12, 12:19 AM

Tali-D - Cleaning out that foam once might cost more than years of a road-service rider on your car insurance. TPMS must hate that stuff.

State Farm charges me about $16 per year for that coverage and it covers a lot more than flat tires. I know Cadillac Road Service is happy to dispatch on a fee-for-service basis. It's all handled through a network of independants, anyway. (Local cops sometimes have 'arrangements' with favored tow-ers and Cadillac dispatches roll-back flatbeds.)

Run-flat tires aren't generally practical; cell phones render them to specialty-only status. Only very vulnerable people that often find themselves in high-risk situations need to keep driving no matter what. Unless you're a drug dealer or South American diplomat can't you wait 30 minutes on those rare occasions where a modern high-quality tire goes flat?

When we purchased the van my dad was 77 and has a cell phone, but I am not confident he would be able to use it under duress without coaching! So I thought it was a wise move. six years later it still gives me peace of mind every week they take their 60 mile trip to the casino and back.:lol:
The good news is in spite of the terrible ride, because of his tame driving style he got over 50,000 miles on the first set, and the replacements were not much more than any good tire.

69 Camaro

09-12-12, 12:39 AM

Everything you see should be immediately intuative. If I have to break out the owner's manual to figure out how to work something on a car, it's too complicated to be there.

I agree whole heartedly! In addition, I hate having to take my eyes off the road to adjust the fan speed, adjust heat/cool,floor, center, or defrost vents, etc. They went back to some knobs on later additions. Now that was a good idea.

ryannel2003

09-12-12, 10:05 AM

When implemented properly, Rainsense is amazing. Cadillac does it right, as does Lexus. BMW's rain sensor system is worthless and just gets in the way.

Agreed. Mom has it on her Denali and the STS had them and they are both very good systems. I'm glad my BMW doesn't have them... I think it was an option for the 325/328/330's anyway.