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John Zerzan Seems to have No fucking Clue what Nihilism Means

Posted on:18 May 2017

By:Post-proletariat

We listeners hear Zerzan talk about nihilism all the time on his podcast.

I don’t have a phone – “Because I’m a real motherfuckin’ primmie, bitch!” – (actually I’m just really poor, like my ‘privacy’ [aka freedom], and spend my only money on food and weed) but if I did, I’d be of course so eager to call him up and have him interrupt, talk over, and hang up on me… Anarchy Radio is like a lukewarm SNL skit where someone gives Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus a public radio show, so that they can whine about shooting sprees, whose been naughty and nice, why Ted Kaczynski was awesome, etc. How’s that for analogy?

Anything that triggers him is instantly labeled ‘nihilist’. He goes on and on about ‘the nihilists’, but like that one line from Princess Bride, I don’t think the word means what he thinks it means…

When I pull up the Spotlight on my Mac OS – something which would without doubt surely be worthy of critique from Zerzan already (unfortunately I have no books or oil lamps available) – and type in “nihilism”,there are three definitions given:

– (historical) the doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party c. 1900 which found nothing to approve of in the established social order.

That sounds pretty cool to me. Here is another definition:

– (Philosophy) the belief that nothing in the world has a real existence.

The definition picked up by Zerzan (and angsty teenagers/Spencer’s shoppers everywhere), that of ‘’moral nihilism’, is my least favorite:

– the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.

Notice this definition has no listed frame of reference and was thusly probably just made up by some editor of the dictionary, due to popular ignorant knowledge over what nihilism is or was.

Another definition that’s worth mentioning is the English Wikipedia’s, which I’ll paraphrase:

Nihilism is a doctrine of philosophy which implies a lack of belief in any of the putatively meaningful parts of life and ‘reality’.

In a world where capitalism has enslaved everything on Earth, (when humans could have the power to move the very stars if they wanted) the idea that there’s ‘nothing to approve of in the established social order’ sounds pretty fucking good to me!

In fact, confusingly, it’s something Zerzan talks about often in an agreeable manner – that whole ‘being against the establish order’.

As the blog nihilist communism.two wrote in April of this year:

‘The modern American attribution of ‘nihilism’ has almost nothing to do with the Russian nihilist milieu of the 19th Century. American nihilism is a malaise diagnosed in others from symptoms identified as indicative of chronic habituation to environmental stimuli. Russian nihilism is a ‘conscious’ form of being characterised by its repudiation of all given forms of attachment. American nihilism isducible to the individual’s embrace of conditioned immediacy at the expense of all else, whilst Russian nihilism supposes the rejection of the very concept of conditioning.

This distinction takes us so far and no further. In practice, American nihilism is defined and interpreted by media commentators and does not exist on its own terms. And the Russian nihilists…in their attempts to effect a detachment from the bad objects of religion, family, state and class only succeeded in re-attaching themselves to the ideal object of ‘material forces’.’

The blog also mentions what’s often referred to as ‘metaphysical nihilism’. In their own words, they posit that ‘the world is a produced world’. There is also ‘epistemological nihilism’, closely related to ‘anti-‘, or ‘post-‘positivism — the idea that all knowledge and ‘truth’ itself cannot be confirmed as true. Then there is ‘compositional’ or ’mereological nihilism’; according to Wiki, this ‘is the position that objects with proper parts do not exist…only basic building blocks without parts exist, and thus the world we see and experience full of objects with parts is a product of human misperception’.

If you didn’t make it through all that, there is another part of the nihilist communism.two blog which might shine some light and add some context:

’In lurches and flashes I recognise both my disconnection from, and integration within, social production. I am in no position to contribute to, participate in, or take control over the processes that form me. I am in no position to prevent, slow down, or halt the environment that constrains and uses me. I am a character, not an actor. Sometimes, as in a dream, I become aware that my presence, my behaviour, my words are written and directed from elsewhere. Sometimes, I become sufficiently aware of the field of my determinations and I make inky scratches upon myself as a reminder of my vanities. The condition of my defeat, which is also a mode of minimal preservation, and which I permanently inhabit, appears as a frozen act of self-interruption, or a prolonged stay of execution. I am stopped here, at some border and I will not cross it. Nor will I turn back. I seem to have been waiting for a very long time for the world to close over me.’

TL;DR; Zerzan would be a lot more effective if he didn’t ignorantly abuse the word ’nihilism’, or if at the very least he was more genuine about his reasons for the abuse. In general, the show also tends to sound like a broken record, but that’s a whole ’nother ball game…

In the end I see him, Kathleen(sp?) and Anarchy Radio providing something very positive and critical. I would hope they accept this critique in good humor. All the best

Whether that's from an egoist perspective, a post-modern perspective, a combination or something else entirely, I had thought until recently that a rejection of morality (at the very least in favor of ethics, though not necessarily) was something most anarchists could agree on. Apparently not though, as I've been seeing a much greater push back on this than, say, ~3 years ago. Whether that's because I've started paying attention to different circles or because attitudes have changed, I can't say.

Regardless, I won't be changing my views on the matter. To quote what may now be an aging meme, "Muh spooks, fuck morals."

If things were bad as Zerzan makes out he would rationalize ' worse-the-better' tactics that most people would call nihilist. ( Or at least extremely cynical)
He's already left anarchism for the fringe by rationalizing murderous political attacks on civilians ( terrorism)
I'm happy most now see John as a Prim and no anarchist.

My understanding is that JZ simply asks 'nihilists' to come forward and explain what it is they have to offer by way of living a life worth living? What do nihilists believe in? Anyone can vent their frustration, anger etc about stuff they have no connection to, so what do nihilists have to offer other than venting what they don't like? I would be interested in hearing what proposals nihilists have to offer? Thanks

That's what you and JZ don't seem to get. As I said before the realization of nihilism is individuated preference and there is no elective position or proposed solution that can anticipate what that entails. For some it might entail a primitive terrestrial existence for others not. There is no singular answer to what makes a life worth living.

Nihilism is also not about venting frustration over what you don't like. Again it's about preference.

So, according to you (and any/all nihilists?), nihilism means individual preference? All nihilists would agree with you on individual preference, right?Have I understood you? Is there anything else, other information that you think would be useful for me to look into? Thanks

Nihilism is also not about venting frustration over what you don't like. Again it's about preference.

Sound like egoism, not nihilism. Nihilism excludes preference. How can a nihilist prefer anything when they are dedicated to nothing?. And as anybody can see from your statement - saying nihilism is not about venting and then saying it's about preference is contradictory. Maybe that's your individuated preference for contradiction showing, but any nihilist could prefer to vent and it would be perfectly in agreement with what you've said is not nihilism.

Dedicated to nothing? To my understanding then, this 'nothing' is a 'something' in that you have made a choice to be dedicated to nothing? Yes, individual preference sounds more like egoism. So, how does a nihilist live a life being dedicated to nothing? Is life/living nothing to nihilists? Thanks

To my understanding then, this 'nothing' is a 'something' in that you have made a choice to be dedicated to nothing?

Precisely. And that choice is a moral one, even though they wouldn't admit it. Nihilism is a rejection of whatever is not "nothing" which is, as you correctly pointed out, "something".

I think JZ understands this and it is the nihilists who don't. They keep squirming around saying he doesn't understand it. However, I think it is the nihilists who don't understand their own position. But I suppose the next conjuring up of what nihilism is, or is not, would involve an appeal to the limits of language to express whatever it is. Which plays right into JZ's lumping together of post-modernism and nihilism... they are both language games.

Morality is an outgrowth of value not value as such which nihilism is trying to reject. If you were to say that nihilism is a form of value as opposed to a form of morality you would be correct as valuation is inescapable as long as we use meaning fueled langauge. This is where negative fueled preference comes in.

circulus in probando to anon 6.30 and the silly ones who can't undertsand that The Creative Nothing is not something, in metaphysical terminology it is a vacuum, so don't start saying moronic semantically twisted things like, "But a vacuum is something, its property is emptiness" Duh, back to the logic pleeeeeease!!

Ok, so this 'vacuum' or this 'emptiness' how does this language manifest in your daily life for example? How could I identify a life being led by a nihilist from a life being lived by someone who is not nihilist? There has to be some manifest way this nihilistic way of being can be identified by others besides through written words?

There is no way, its metaphysical. Now don't go saying something stupid like ----But nihilists don't believe in relationships or have values--because you're falling into the dualist perception of reality, like, if a nihilist voids moralism and institutions as constructs, how come he's working at the school and dressing in a tweed jacket and Hawaian shirt? {actually, I'd be asking myself the same question hah } The physical is irrelevant to the nihilist consciousness, and consciousnesses can never be seen, Ted Bundy for instance,,,,,does that answer you question?

This is something that is weirdly hard for people to grasp. Nihilism isn't a desire, it's a motivation (or rather, a lack thereof). A nihilist and a christian could want the same thing, there's nothing contradictory about this. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's completely divorced from physicality, since I do do things like say "whatever, that's just blatant moralism," but such a dismissal could have just as easily been motivated by something else.

Yeah, its not totally divorced, the awareness of the 'Nihilist perspective' could be seen as a tool for critical thinking, thus affecting ones actions away from fallacious outcomes, neither negative nor positive nor neutral, it evolves into a spontaneous Nowness which proceeds according to the flow of resistances or favourable conditions. Time and Being fades away,,,,,, ,,,, ,, , , ,

nietzsche's view was that back in the time of Plato and Socrates, Western civilization began putting 'rationality' into an unnatural precedence over natural instincts and experience-based intuition. so that our use of the latter in our everyday lives began to atrophy and be devalued while the values we attach to rational intellection continued to rise and 'take over'.

capitalism is a manifestation of this, as is the inflated respect for a well-developed intellect. Western society laughs at 'primitive people' whose highly developed instincts and intuitions far surpass the shrunken remains of same in the modern technology proficient Western man [e.g. as studied in the film Snow Walker].

rational models are bullshit piled on bullshit and the iconic founders of Western society have been riding the crest of a two millennia long wave of bullshit, which is now in the process of collapse. the 'achievements' of rational/scientific model based actions are impressive because they can deliver what we want them to in logical terms. but that is anthropocentrism and it leads to biocatastrophe since the 'externalities' associated with our impressive science-designed and leveraged actions are screwing up the world that we are included in and which sustains us. sure we can eliminate mosquitoes by spraying with pesticides and sure we can eliminate pesky people with drones, but we don't have a clue as to how the 'externalities' these anthropocentric actions engender will play out ["humanity" is "killing us"].

all of the rational model supported things that have grown to be highly valued, like God and the Queen and esteemed statesmen and 'successful businessmen' and 'truth' itself as in 'the history of the nation' have started to look very shabby, as if the facade of lies is falling away and exposing some very unflattering aspects of ourselves.

the wild and natural instincts and experience-based intuitions that we mocked in 'primitive others' and in our own primitive selves, are now looking like 'the real thing', the authentic self that we dethroned and sold down the river as we elevated a hollow rationality in its place.

as the superficial, rationality-based values fall, those whose persona has become most dependent on them will be the most resistant in 'accepting this collapse into nihilism' which we must come to grips with in order for the revival of our natural selves to occur.

this passage through nihilism [transvaluation of all values] is one of those transformations wherein one has to keep one's cool; i.e. it is like a 'dark night of the soul' or metamorphosis as from worm to butterfly where you go into the darkness of the cocoon and feel yourself rotting and liquefying without any assurances that you will come through this with a transformed 'butterfly' self.

The transforming relational continuum (i.e the universe) is pre-symbolic. Meaning is pure symbol. Nihilism is the recognition that symbols are not an inherent feature of the pre-symbolic and are instead created by brains (a very specific feature in the pre-symbolic that we have symbolized with a word). Because symbols are products of brains, they are subjective, incomplete, and carry no authority. Human brains are currently dominated by symbols (i.e. thought), but that is not necessary. Thought is only one tiny aspect of the human condition. Just as a blind person has a keener sense of hearing or smell than the average 5 sensed person, it is possible to still be functioning and eschew the symbolic. For example, the occasional loss of "self" that results from the ending of thought that can occur when a musician is fully immersed in a performance. In these instances the symbolic is naught. The brain may be telling the body what to do based on memory (including muscle memory) but there is no symbolizing happening, no self discernible from the world. Subjectively, there is also a completely different "experience" of the exact same transforming now, we are all embedded in, as a result of thought taking a back seat to the pre-symbolic. As Robert Anton Wilson might say, one's reality tunnel transforms by the mere reduction or negation of the symbolic.

Having experienced a pre-symbolic consciousness prerequisites the ability to have a nihilistic awareness which tranforms into an intuitive intelligence, a letting go of moral and behavioral conditioning similar to a functioning trance-like assessment of the environment without preconceived and judgemental reactions,,,,then snap, one hears a twig break and becomes aware of a bear charging towards oneself and the empirical data (pain, pleasure, desires etc ) and values one has learned from ones parents or at school kicks in and one runs for ones life,,,,unless one embraces 'nihilism' as a form of existence, and chooses to die. Not to be confused with laziness or arrogance (I'm Donald Trump, no bear is gonna eat me, I'm the President of Amuhrica, the greatest nation in the world),,,,,,

True nihilists don't choose to die, they fade away, slowly digested by the environment, yes JZ, primitivists ultimately become bear poo or decomposing mulch in the forest soil, no monument, memories or grave stones, no ritual to mark their passing,,,,,,,,,damn cold in the world of the glorified and euphemized serial killer's consciousness huh? At least hunters and gatherers stacked the bones in rock crevices or hollow logs, none of that Western Christian sentimentality huh, they destroyed the biosphere, spit on their graves and sentence all their offspring to a painful diseased and starving existence,,,,,WE ARE PURE PRIMITIVISTS WITH NOBLE ETHICS!!!!

There is a deeper level of meaning that is outside of symbol formation/abstraction altogether. Your example of the musician relates to this. "Direct Knowledge is called 'mysticism' because it is mysterious to those who (in our degenerate condition) have never had this level of experience. And because those who have CANNOT reduce it to symbol formation, and because the intellect CANNOT grasp it." (pg.5, Into Eden) From the Ju/'hoansi tribal elders: "It is worth saying again: when you are in the position of being able to speak the most truth about spiritual matters, no words can come out of your mouth. You can't talk at all. God made it that way. If someone is filled with n/om and loses their ability to talk, then listen carefully. Only then are their sounds true. When we are speechless like this - when we can only make vibratory sounds and songs - we are better able to communicate with God and the ancestors." (translated with approval by Brad Keeney) Music is today's remnant of the Original Language (or language NOT as we know it). The Original Language was not fully abstracted, qualitatively deeper and finer, and far harder to de-contextualize. Language as we know it (which we think in) consolidated very recently, around 40,000 years ago, and even in normal (hunter-gatherer-permaculturist) humans, has more similarities with the Original Language than modern English does. ( See Steve Mithen, The Singing Neanderthals)

So that's why the mystical singing Neanderthals became extinct, they were too rapted singing and dancing along the trail that they didn't hear the sabre tooth tiger or the mammoth racing down on them and tearing and stomping them to death. Successful species DON'T get around like New-Age trendies, in the real world there is the red tooth and claw to deal with, not whether Soaring Eagle's or Grey Wolf's melody is in the correct tonal key. The more complex the tonality, the greater the likelihood of survival. ( See Mighty Empires and the Symphonies They Marched To, Sebastian Sullivan )

The saber-toothed cat went extinct LONG before Neanderthals emerged. The cat was probably wiped out by Homo hiedelbergensis, who could also take down a rhinocerous or a lion. Neanderthals were displaced/absorbed by Sapiens between 40,000 and 25,000 years ago. "New-Age trendies" - the Ju/'hoansi have been around for over 100,000 years, since before the emergence of language as we know it. Mystical singing Sapiens did not go extinct. Starting 10,000 years ago in certain parts of the world, we sadly began degenerating into the mess we have now.

" Homo hiedelbergensis, who could also take down a rhinocerous or a lion." From Heidelberg I presume? Hmmm, sounds right. They evolved into the German Nationalist Socialist Party and almost succeeded in taking down the world.

Such a BRILLIANT response! And "Neanderthals" all come from the Neander Valley, also in Germany (so they MUST have all "evolved" into Nazis too). And "Sapiens" all come from Sapiana (I know not where THAT is, perhaps it is another nefarious nest of fascists). And this is much of what passes for "discourse" in the anarchist scene.

The oldest credible Homo sapiens cranium, Idaltu, 160,000 years old, is from Ethiopia. The forehead is nearly vertical, but the browridge is heavier than almost any Sapiens alive today. Not fully differentiated from Homo heidelbergensis.

'the meaning' of symbols must be by agreement so perspectivism is hidden by superficial agreement at the symbols level. the 'drift' of agreed meaning, and its biasing by powerful influences underscore the need for revival of pre-symbolic/pre-literal understanding [which involves getting the ego out of the way so as to access the authentic Self whose roots draw deeply from the transforming relational continuum, kind of like getting the local, visible, material form of the storm-cell out of the way so as to as to tap into the indefinitely deferred matrix of relational influences infusing its cosmic fetalizing].

Real nihilists are the hobos occupying all the highways and railways and out of the system. You gotta have nothing but your owness, that's what its about, not occupy a suburb, like expecting rights, hobos deal with all the shit and exclusion, they squat and take free rides to nowhere in particular, we got the Primitivists looking like domesticated pets, hobos do it wild, we're the 21st century hunter/gatherers.

Thus far, from the comments on this thread, it would seem to me that a person claiming to be a nihilist wouldn't necessarily be recognised by even another 'nihilist' as being a nihilist? So, if a nihilist cannot recognise a nihilist, how can a non-nihilist recognise a nihilist? Indeed the unrecognised nihilist could always carrying on claiming to be a nihilist even though no other person would recognise him or her as a nihilist and a non-nihilist and claiming to be not a nihilist could still be recognised as a nihilist? What is clear is the lack of clarity, right? So nihilism could be defined as and manifested by a person who is not clear about anything? For me, this is the issue, nihilism appears to be a word and that is about all it is or am I wrong about this? Thanks

You must be unclear about everything therefore. For example, I KNOW that president Trump is NOT a nihilist, and by association therefor all of those who support him are not nihilists. Ever heard of reduction by classification. That does leave many unknown tendencies left to define, and the only way to identify a nihilist is by their confessing to be one. Probably most people will vehemently deny being nihilistic, so it only leaves a small percentage of the population left with the question mark over their consciousness pending. Sure, they may just be saying this and they may not actually be nihilists, but by asking them a couple of pertinent questions about nihilism, it can be determined if they are in fact the nihilists they claim to be. I ask all folk who wish to attend our Turnpike Autonomous Zone convergences these questions.

"...but by asking them a couple of pertinent questions about nihilism, it can be determined if they are in fact the nihilists they claim to be." Gunter, regarding your reply, could you please elaborate by putting forward, on this thread, a couple of pertinent questions, (more questions if you wish) you would ask in establishing whether or not a person is the nihilist she or he claims to be? Thanks

Well its like this, if someone claims to be a nihilist is told that they will be asked some questions to determine if their claim is true, if that person laughs or strikes you or does some action, it means they are nihilists, whereas if they say, ok, ask me the questions, they are obviously not nihilists, because a real nihilist knows that there is NOTHING that any question of any type could be answered with any language which could explain the reality of being a nihilist, it requires a gesture, action or music, something other than language, especially in the form of a question. There is one school of Renzai zen buddhism which conducts a test for authenticity along similar lines. If you can't grasp this process, then you are not a nihilist either. Are you a nihilist, just asking?

From what you say, then no I'm not because I would for the questions. These questions though would surely have been asked by oneself as a person tries to work out who they are, therefore the questions have to be asked one way or another, so to speak? However, can a person move between not being a nihilist and being a nihilist?

I've met many folk, mostly train-hoppers, who are nihilists yet are not aware of being one, so that's a problem in itself, the word and the different categories which have been attached to that word. One would have more success conducting psychological tests to determine the condition, then again there is the intellectual philosophical nihilist, or existential nihilist, the psychopathic nihilist or the suicidal terrorist nihilist, I think the term has had its day, like 'happy' , does that mean laughing and feeling jolly occasionally, or having inner peace and tranquility? People can switch often between these moods of solitary negation and amoral indifference all the time and not be nihilists because they are attached to material objects, which seems to be the modern condition in a way, hiding behind devices with screens as a distraction from the total meaningless of existence in the modern capitalist environment. That why nihilists are more likely to be hobos, people non-attached and just living in the Now, most of the time anyway, one cannot be a nihilist 24/7, one has to do things of value in relationships unless one becomes a recluse and inplodes into ones own insignificance.

Gunter, in that case I would say I have nihilistic moments which can vary in length of time. Meaninglessness makes sense to me and I am talking about meaninglessness which I feel beyond any feelings of depression and/or anxiety...just my acceptance of it all being totally meaningless and why bother striving to create meaning which can be very wearisome and draining. Usually hunger or thirst drags me back to 'getting on' with my existence. Maybe then, I do have nihilistic moments?

Yeah, and this feeling of meaninglessness, sometimes fleeting or hovering for a few hours, depends, part existentialist, which may be a product of capitalist domestication, or any domestication possibly, a negative slant on nihilism, and this goes to the crux of my idea that the undomesticated hobo, or more accurately, the nomadic lifestyle imparts a positive slant to that feeling of meaninglessness, but is that just another distraction, moving landscapes, motion, is this a universal human emotional condition, like the blues, loneliness etc, does a screen substitute that connection to feelings of purpose? I find hobos the most beautiful people in their old clothes and humility, not the botoxed clean and plastic smiling smugness of arrogant wealth and social power, they are not nihilists, they are total materialists, yet still human and equally flawed, why hide from it, why denigrate the state of nihilistic consciousness, its beautifully human to be nihilistic?

Gunter, to further clarify then, nihilism can be both a state where one feels at ease, maybe even at 'one,' drifting along? Do you think a nihilist state can be where one reacts differently or would this be existential angst? Thanks

Its a consciousness which requires an umbilicus relationship from ones individual existence outwards towards the void, resembling astral travel and then a return journey to ones ego, an oscillation, and not the existentialist angst which is static within the ego and not venturing into the realm of the cosmic void, but only concerned with the pre-identity consciousness, the empirical self . I'm not using the Freudian ego, but the self-awareness of the empirical self. It can become confusing the terminology to describe the mental state.

Resembling astral travel but in no way suggesting any mystical applications of spiritual worlds or mystic visions, merely the sensation of projecting ones thoughts outwards to be annulled or cancelled by the void.

The sensation cannot be cancelled by the Void. We only are closing our "third eye", or opening it. They say it becomes excessively difficult to open it as you grow old, since the pineal gland becomes calcified by some toxins that we consume, tho that last part seems like New Age pseudoscience. The real is unreal. It's a web of simulations and simulacra, yet being external, we are still pawns in the game and cannot pretend having any foot outside the realm as long as we're alive... or maybe some have but are very quiet about it. It can only be perceived through the tiny cracks, the (perhaps intentional) flaws and multidimensional frontiers of creation.

Yeah the sensation can't be cancelled, thinkers in philosophical quietism seek the cancellation of the alter-ego, but languaged cognition and vision and the other senses continually bombard,,,The closest to voiding sensation is in sense-deprivation tanks/rooms which have offered the closest thing to a simulation of the void, and the consciousness of those immersed within it has hallucinated/perceived unrealities that have taken them to the verge of having their beingness dispersed and obliterated never to reform. If monitored this may be one way to heal toxic attitudes and reboot the ego to its infantile state, which is probably the closest thing to having the "nihilist consciousness or lack thereof"

There is a further step you can take. You say that only those who refuse to answer the questions are the true nihilists, because they know that no answer will be sufficient in conveying the experience. While I agree with this in part - that nihilism cannot be explained in language - I disagree with the assertion that someone cannot be nihilist if they DO endeavor to describe their experience. This is where the further step comes in, that I actually learned from studying Zen myself. Once you see the absurdity of duality in general, to the extent that you begin to have the feeling that I believe true nihilism embodies, that all the universe is one singular happening with no beginning, no end, no time, no space, and no difference whatsoever between one thing and the next, and that in the grand scheme, there isn't even one thing or another, you will then simultaneously get the feeling that you can say whatever the hell you want, because the saying of it has no more or less meaning than anything else. As soon as the mind names something as one thing or the other, it embraces delusion. But so long as one has a functioning brain, this labeling mechanism will endure. Such is the singular function of mind. The brain has other physical functions, of which the mind is only one. But the mind has only one function - to label things as either this, that or the other - and it is only with death that the mind will abate entirely. Thus, delusion cannot be escaped. Thinking will always be delusional, and one will always think. Thus, what the hell does it matter if one talks of nihilism, or otherwise? It could in fact be reasonably argued that those who think that they are more nihilist, or the only pure form of nihilist, because they don't discuss it and refuse to be questioned about it, are actually the ones who fall short of true nihilism. With this you can begin to see the sort of vicious circle that begins, as the paradoxical elements that arise in discussing duality vs. non-duality are exposed. Talk about it. Don't talk about it. It doesn't matter, and yet somehow it also does. It's like trying to grasp at clouds.

You can't "stop short" when there's no goal, no horizon and no way to measure any movement. One more victim, drowning in the swamp of deconstructed logic, all trying to one-up each other with metaphysical word salad. Have fun with that.

Congratulations. You win the internet today, for demonstrating the impossibility of using words to convey non-dual existence. Strange, I was actually waiting for some genius to come along and point out this exact same thing. Anyway if you didn't catch it, and it appears you didn't, the overarching point of my post was to infer that there is really no such thing as a nihilist at all, so to suggest that there is such a thing as a pure or true nihilist (as in, one-upmanship) is futile and meaningless. In other words, to "stop short" means simply to not have figured this out, not that there is some grand place to get to. And yes, from the absolute perspective, there can be nothing to "stop short of." Again, congratulations. By the way, where can I get some of this "constructed logic" you speak of? I'd like to get my hands on some, but unfortunately when I look all around I can't seem to find any. Can it turn a regular human into a superior one?

" to suggest that there is such a thing as a pure or true nihilist (as in, one-upmanship) is futile and meaningless."
This is exactly why I claim that hobos such as myself are the true nihilists, because we want our actions to be futile and our existence meaningless, which is quintessentially being nihilistic. Logic and rational process does not exist, love me hate me feed me starve me enslave me and say that I talk lies,,,,,,well of course,,,, because I am a nihilist, I,,,,,,,,don't,,,,,,,,care,,,,,what anyone says to the contrary, in my own meaninglessness I am my own nihilist, nothing else can change that, no one wins or loses,,,,,,,,,just silence, no Qs and As, no talking, no meaning, just the cosmic void,,,,,and Gunter the nihilist,,,,mmmmkk, no not OK, I D O N T C A R E,,,,,,,,,,,,

Your actions are already futile, and your existence already meaningless, prior to your wanting them to be so, because you are nothing to begin with. If there can be anything about you which is true, it is that you are nothing. Never have you been anything, and never will you be. There cannot be a void, and then you, the nihilist, observing the void. There is only the void, which encapsulates all. Nothing, including you and your thoughts about being "in your own meaningless" are apart from the void, in any respect. In the great void there is an can never be any separation, and only the great void exists. There are no such thing as hobos in the void, and there are no true nihilists. There is only nothing, and everything, and neither of these.

So does nilihilism exist in the nothing and the everything and in neither of these or is it nilhilism doesn't exist in the nothing and the everything and in neither of these? If there is no true nilhilism then there is no nilhilism? Nilhilism is just a word? Nilhilism 'exists' as just a word? There are many comments on this thread and more being added all the time which possibly means people enjoy messaging about nothing, about what doesn't exist. Cool. If only school would have been like this!

Nihilism exists only as an idea in the mind, just as does everything in that which we call existence. When the mind ceases to be, only the the timeless and boundless Absolute remains. The Absolute is in actuality indivisible; it is only the human mind which appears to give it form through symbolic labeling. When you enter into deep sleep at night, where are the nihilists? Where is existence an any form? Without a mind to breathe life into the otherwise formless void of the Absolute, how can there be anything at all? The same example applies in death. It is not that the tree blowing in the wind outside your window can not longer be seen; it is that it was never there at all. When you raise your hand to object, that is only the mind objecting. And where is the mind? Can you pull it out here before us to have a look at? Perhaps we can dissect it, and see what kind of stuff it is made of. Except you cannot, because what we call mind is simply a mixing of chemicals in the brain. The body uses its senses to interpret outside stimulus in a rudimentary fashion, converts whatever meager information it can take in into data via electrical impulses, which spur a release of various organic chemicals, and what we call existence arises on the screen of the mind, as a projection of what it thinks is reality. This "existence" seems all the more real and profound when we give it apparent continuity through the storybook of our thoughts. The more continuous the thinking, the more real everything seems. We experience a story that we mistakenly perceive as truth, when in fact there is nobody here to experience any kind of truth. There is only a mixing of chemicals in the brain, which creates a Matrix reality that is no more real than a computer program. If you disagree with this analysis, then I have one simple question, or rather, a challenge. Name one thing that you know for certain to be true. Dig deep, think hard, and when you think you have it, spare no expense in justifying it. If you do this for long enough, and you are honest with yourself, you will eventually find that NOTHING WHATSOEVER is true, including your own existence. Also, can a dog or an elephant be a nihilist? How about a rock? Why, or why not?

Also, the void of existence is not meaningless. To profess that a state of meaninglessness exists, is to simultaneously conjure its opposite state, meaningfulness, into existence. Either they both exist, or neither do. If they both exist, they do so only inside your mind, and your mind is equally capable of experiencing both. It would seem to me that you are focusing your mind exclusively towards one end of the spectrum, but that end is no more true than the other. NOTHING is true. Nothing has meaning. Nothing doesn't have it. There is a state in Zen they call being "drunk on emptiness." There is nothing wrong with being in such a state, but there is nothing right about it either, and having been through that state myself, and then left it, my suggestion would to be to move on.

I can't move on b1ackraven, I don't have a car because I'm anti-materialist, nor do I desire a change to my mental state, which is the first prerequisite to becoming a nihilist. If someone spontaneously arrives and takes me away, or gives me a lobotomy, fine, but for myself to desire any change would be to acknowledge, as you mentioned, a spectrum of awarenesses, which is not true, just as "being drunk on emptiness" is just a phrase, it means nothing, just as zen is, its like nihilism, just a word. I think you are actually an existentialist who moved on from angst and called that transition "zen self-awareness", which is very edge-lordish. I'm just a humble hobo, bum, unemployed prole, peasant, plebe, loser, outcast, exile whatever the label, maybe folk who are the rejects of any system or culture grasp onto the concept of nihilism as a self defense mechanism, that MY nihilism is actually a blend of ressentiment and existentialism woven together, like the radovniks, the moral and epistemological skepticism that arose in 19th-century Russia. I should stick with that, I'm a retro living in the past radovnik nihilist, which is a word and did exist, and has nothing to do with voids on a personal level. Sorry about the mental confusion, living on scraps of food and sleeping on the ground in dirty conditions doesn't make for bright upbeat intellectually sharp and smug discourse,,,,,,,,,,,

Yeah I definitely meant move on in terms of mental state, not physical location. But it was just a recommendation. I could care less what you do with it. I do wonder, though, how you perceive "being drunk on emptiness" as "just a phrase," while simultaneously thinking nihilism to be something greater than just a phrase. Seems like a bit of a mental trap to me, but to each his own. Anyway I'm not at all familiar with existentialism. Never really got into Western philosophy at all. Spent a hell of a lot of time studying stuff from the East though. Not sure why I gravitated that way, but it is what it is. Edgelordish? WTF is it with the internet terms these days? I had to look that one up. Anyway I think you are mistaken in this respect. I post on the internet perhaps a dozen times a year, and usually only with subjects that I am sincerely interested in and have spent a lot of time researching/thinking about. Generally I can't be bothered to even read through the comments section, much less try to post edgy shit in search of narcissistic supply. Anyway for some reason this particular article and your comment caught my eye, because I've spent hundreds of hours digesting Zen literature, and your comment was relevant to the kinds of thoughts I am often preoccupied with. Zen and Nihilism are but a hair's breadth away, in my opinion. So liken me to an Edgelord if you will, but methinks we have much more in common than you realize. I live in a van right now without a job, no plans to get one, and am very nearly out of money, so I too will soon I will be living out of a backpack in the dirt as a social outcast. Been preparing for it all winter. Hoping I can handle it as I have some health problems to contend with, but I've been backpacking all my life so at least there's that. You certainly have a jump start on me with the hobo life though, and for that I commend you. Wish I would have done it long ago.

B1ackraven I appreciate your replying to my rather sarcastic comment, and yes, we do have much in common. I also lean to the Eastern philosophical/religious schools, I particularly enjoyed DT Suzuki's The Doctrine of No Mind, and though he supported the Emperors WW2 stance and adhered to the hierarchical structure of feudal Japanese social values of the time and the alliance with the Nazi Axis, I could apply the death of the author to his many critics. That was all another era anyway, long gone in the mists of history. I hope your health endures the rigors of hard life and recommend a sojourn to the south during the winter months. Keep well my nihilistic brother ;)

This is exactly why I claim that hobos such as myself are the true nihilists, because we want our actions to be futile and our existence meaningless, which is quintessentially being nihilistic.

When Faraday and Schroedinger claimed that 'field is all there is' (matter is appearance), this undercut the notion of 'local agency' jumpstarting from 'material being'. The imagery of a 'Genie' (local source of genesis) coming out of a bottle is Western man's traditional model of himself and also God. Out of the void come local agency, as in an atom or gene.

Along comes the finding that 'field' is the only physically real influence and that 'matter' and 'material beings' are not physically real, but appearances associated with relational features, such as stormings-in-the-flow-field. There is no 'local agency' here and there is no 'local being' which jumpstarts 'local agency'. There is nothing here ... LOCALLY. In particular, there is no LOCAL GENESIS as all sourcing action is 'EPIGENETIC' and purely 'relational' [the form which field influence comes in; i.e. field is 'everywhere at the same time and it is purely relational and thus non-local, non-visible and non-material].

If you thought of yourself as a 'storm-cell' with local agency and/or a Genie with local agency that sourced your own actions and results, the understanding that 'field is all there is' [relations are all there is] would strip you of your notional 'local agency' and strip all things of notional locally incipient genesis [including 'genes'].

Your Western ego [small sagacity ego-self] would thus collapse as you realized that your storm-cell self had no local being and thus no local agency, but was spun together relationally and constituted purely by epigenetic influence which inductively actualized your 'local genetic expression' so that the 'real physical you' is the flow [the non-local, non-visible, non-material field-flow which is 'everywhere at the same time']. This is the indigenous aboriginal view of the world wherein the material aspect is the 'shadow' of the spiritual [field-flow dynamic] world.

In this case, it is not that 'you are nothing' but that you are 'without material being' and thus have no local material platform from which to launch 'local agency', such local material platform being 'appearances' as in the 'storming' [purely relational feature in the field-flow].

the 'bad news' is that you now understand your self as 'nothing' in a material and local agency self, just as the storming would have to come to grips with such understanding. the concept of 'your actions' [local agency] and 'your existence' [local material being] would be meaningless.

the 'good news' is that 'you are everything [Atman = Brahman] and you do have 'local influence' in the manner of a 'magnetic lensing' in the field-flow and thus you have influence as an 'agent of relational transformation' as in Emerson's description of a human as a 'vent' that "transmits influences from the vast and universal [non-local] to the [local] point on which his [Brahman] 'genius' can act.

Your ego, which in the materialist sense you understand as 'local personal agency that you attribute fully and solely to your 'local material self' and which is the source of causal genesis of your own actions and results, is now dispersed and diluted throughout the universe [the epigenetic influence field] like a pinch of salt dropped into an ocean.

this 'dissolution of the ego' has a fearful aspect termed 'the dark night of the soul' at the same time as an ecstatic aspect, 'becoming one with everything'.

I'm pleased emile that you have the acumen to describe the unusual paradox my consciousness as an 'agent of relational transformation' nevertheless has lost it materialistic agency in the world. Oh, just wondering, you wouldn't happen to be a nihilist yourself by any chance would you?

" With this you can begin to see the sort of vicious circle that begins, as the paradoxical elements that arise in discussing duality vs. non-duality are exposed. Talk about it. Don't talk about it. It doesn't matter, and yet somehow it also does. It's like trying to grasp at clouds."
It least I posited the idea that the nihilist consciousness resembles the infantile consciousness. "vicious circle,,,, grasping at clouds",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you appear to have embraced a hurricane. I began with a simple wisp o' the wind anecdotal , "Hobos are the true nihilists" and look at all this vaporous excess I have been put through by intellectuals huh!

Aragorn, could the Anarchist News Podcast create a piece about nihilism: for example, define it and describe how it manifests in people and how others can recognise it in others, maybe this will help clarify the whole deal? Thanks

After watching this other gibbering jackass jerk himself off because somebody is paying attention to him for as long as it takes to establish that there is no real answer to any serious enquiry, I suspect the podcast would be equally embarrassing.

They think they sound impressive and mystical but all I hear is the droning nonsense of someone flirting with a full psychotic break. Mostly, they're just tickled that somebody is paying attention to them. My follow-up questions would be along the lines of "When did you last eat?" and "Do you have somewhere to go?" because I've done support work for folks with mental-health/addictions problems… What?! DONT I SOUND COMPASSIONATE ENOUGH?!

"seek not..." What's up dude, why you gettin' all wound up? Nobody forced you to read this thread? So why read it, just to have 'say' at slaggin' it off? Wow, how sad! But I noticed you and I hope you're a happier bunny now. Keep takin' the pills.

I don't care that you don't care,,,,I DONT CARE!!!!! I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to identity addicts about their attachment to their ignorant boring life raping existence because I just DON"T CARE . Now silence "....................................................................."
"At least I tried though................................................."

This is so... fucking... interesting. Feeling powerless or isolated in the face of social relations and their ever-developping collective production of bullshit and hate? Gaze at your navel. Nurtur it. You'll feel less lonely.

once upon a time i was an anarchist 40 years later i am a nihilist,this is because the world of benign neglecful social security that i grew up in has become a welfare state.now as a result there is very little i can even i can look at in society with approval .as i have no economic power or political connections iam powerless blah blah as said before by so many,who are deluded and encourage the armadlillo cant do anything.much as i have the utmost admiration for the no one can do nothing brigade,i would like to ask this ,do you toss your lit fag butt into a bin or do you carefully put it out in case the cctv cameras see you.anyway as a old bitter disillusioned anarchist being let down and ignored by the new activists i would like to ask you a question ,how many of you silly little fuckers are interns do work based modules for 2years degrees to become undercover intelligence officers and do you realise how much amusement i get out of seeing your attempts at interpersonal relations.i particulaly like a squatted protest with the activists squirilled awy at the top of the building with interested people and anarchists who are not part of the group running the squat milling around waiting for the advertised workshops et al.but deterred from initiated from developing anything without approval from abve.
ah fuck it rich kid art students and undercover lovers drserve each other and i dont get to meet them as i am old and have arthiritis and by the time i get to the top of the squat all i want to know is why they cant squat a place with a lift.and all they awnt to know is who i am and what i am doing there not how i am and how can they help.
when i see that they are sleeping on office carpet in a sweaty sleeping bag all i can say is that is not squatting and is not a sustainable lifestyle .if you cant look after yourself dont be suprised if you dont get taken seriosly,respect yourself and people will respect you ,you treat yourself lke shit and people will think you like shit and dump all their spare shit on you,bewre of activists who control, protect and respect the property of the authorities as they are dangerously mentally disturbed to the point that thye police diferentiate between good squatters and bad squatters.
myself my life has never been so good or secure and same goes for all my contempories despite the high attrition rate .nihilism is saying no,its dropping an old car battery in a traffic light junction box,feeding the pidgeons on kfc,nihilism is sly crafty and will make you smile and if its done right cant be pinpointed to anything specific that will get an individual in trouble.one final word superglueing reward cards into atms is nihilistic ,burning buildings and incoherent violence means you have issues and will spend many brain cells disembling this message,but you not gonna liv e as long as me the way your going,but maybe thats the point.

You can look up HPWombat and what he wrote about the law of attraction some years back but there is some basic truth to positive thinking. That anarchists are gluttons for punishment does not change this.

Wasn't it supposed to be all about Aragorn's nihilist anarchy as nihilism? I guess not. I don't like nihilism anymore. It is a bunch of losers, posers and assholes that want to pump their little egos up until their daddies spank their little butts. That and psychotic fucks that need to be taken out into the streets and beaten with rocks until dead.

The future has become completely predictable; a script that is being worked through from A to Z. Fukuyama has finally prevailed. There are
merely some anomalies, corrections that have not yet been made. All arguments are for the following of the prescribed route. It is true that
there are always a number of simultaneous scenarios that are partially overlapping and partially mutually exclusive. But they have one thing in common: they are all true.
Will it be an ecological catastrophe or an atom bomb? Whichever you request. Humanitarian disaster or military defeat? The choice is yours. Will it be abstract or figurative? Whichever way the wind blows. Brazil or China? All options have been thought through. All the right specialists have been found and their reports are ready and waiting to be implemented. The field of vision has narrowed to one perspective, wherever you look. There are no surprises, only possibilities. Reread " After the neocons". Even the biggest problems (AIDS in Africa, Taliban in Afghanistan, Assad in Syria, Trump in Washington) will never be more than entrances to new Verso book markets.

At the moment they appear, all phenomena already contain the structure of this model. All that remains to us is the dull task of unravelling the software underneath. The number of programmes is extremely limited. The hermeneutic and semiotic reading of the world puts up a smokescreen which manages to enchant us again and again with its wealth of shapes, turns and suggestions of depth, but alas, in fact it is all a bit more holographic than that.
The theory of anarchy is no more than a cloth for the bleeding in the angry negatory streets at dawn. Unbearable (and irresistible) simplicity is no longer really distinguishable from banality, and this sends many a public intellectual fleeing to the safe haven of interpretation. Through this mechanism, an originally critical practice like post-civ studies has slipped away into a safe, meaningless sketch of image culture. "primitivist culture" has degenerated into a profession with prospects. This is how neo-Hegelianism works: once you get it, you can apply it to anything.
We locate this suprahistory when we train our gaze on the sub-human level. The drama of micropolitics: the pension plan is in place by the time you're 21. Death on the installment plan. Try and get out from under that. A little heli-skiing won't do it. Total burnout at 26 seems like it might help, but it turns out later to have been just a sabbatical. RSI at 14? Just as easily. What else is the future but paying off mortgages and life insurance? The secret collective longing for a market crash, i.e. a world war, remains a last, authentic expression of the longing to make a clean sweep, to undergo an adventure and then start all over. The insurrectionists supplied this model.
There's no running aground, lost ideals or middle-aged cynicism in this case — that would have been the fall-of-man model.
Yesterday's primmies are today's crisis managers, guiding whole peoples at a time through their dips. They work according to the dynamic model, which uses resistance to get ahead by systematically improvising. In this model, things must go wrong for one to become a success. This is in contrast to the compulsory positivism that three-quarters of the world must disavow to preserve its good humour. Primmie thinking is happy with any opposition and derives its energy from it.
Nihilism rejects every model; that much is clear. But is repudiation, however elegant or brutal, not itself also a model?
Nihilism distinguishes itself rigorously from deconstructivism. Deconstruction is an installations USB dongle that always works. But the software's ability to anticipate is nil. Something must be built up before it can be taken apart, thus the orientation to the past. The nice thing about this model,however, is its youthful elan in believing that the future can be predicted. That is the game Zerzan plays. His theory of reflectivity is based on a solid foundation of European negativity. This is why he can stay "ahead of the wave" while legions of ideas market analysts get caught in their own sales speeches, whose nonsense they can never understand, since belief in their spiels is precisely the product they're selling. (Hi Emile )
And non-monetary nihilism, where is that? Who can enjoy the certainty of decline, and benefit from it? What a riddle!
But one thing is sure: there will always be enough that can be destroyed. "As long as there is death, there is hope."
The future of thinking, the development of forms of expression, planetary architecture, these are all projects of others. Nihilism is an experimental attitude, an exercise in remembering, followed now and then by a short series of outbursts, and then a long period of hiding inside normality.
Optimism can turn into gloominess. On the other hand, it is impossible for cheerfulness to neutralise nihilism. Nihilism is itself a form of cheerfulness. There's no future for nihilism, a punk would say. The marketing department of nihilist.com (TM) should really be at its wit's end, but that is not the case. Nihilism continues unexpectedly to do well, generation after generation, even as it denies its own future.

But these days being in my early 40s (already...srsly wtf!?) I'm more worried about my rapidly-decreasing chances of getting laid with cute college girls when I get to be officially an old fart, which in a liberal city with so many incommunicative lesbians like here is going to get wayyy more impossible.

I mean I spent that last 10-15 going through an exploration of social and political nihilism on one form or another so being on welfare during the peak years of manly big success feels just like being a negative reflection of the sad, brutal joke that "society" is. Friction with this big fucking machine is harsh so that's why I'd rather be going BIG fuckkkk machine. Tho hey no, I'm also still not taking out the FULL quixotesque anti-civ assault out of my menu.

The real meaninglessness is in the use of electricity to read/write/discuss nihilism. The skin cells from the fingertips on the keyboard, not unlike the repetitive motion of more literal masturbations! The oxygen pushed through the circulatory system to power the brain as it circle-jerks itself and finds others, slowly spinning in the same circles! Truly, the broken teapot has a tempest and its name is nothing!

Zerzan and occasionally his co-host usually raise nihilism almost every week. My original impression being Zerzan's trying to goad someone. Somehow for some inexplicable reason I keep thinking he's been aiming it at Aragorn. More recently it seems Zerzan is just raising the topic because he's got nothing to talk about.

Maybe because he realizes that its all too late, and there are no more places left on the earth where one can indulge in ones primitivist survivalist fetish other than in a gated community in an affluent Western society.

In reference to the guy who does primitive technology videos I argue that primitivism should become a non ideological hobby. It would be great to have a dedicated culture of people that did this. It would be no different than those who keep the old ancient classical martial arts alive. Just quit with the elective/proposed nonesense and make it a skilled hobby that some people could perhaps taper off of modernity towards.

Some preppers develop self-sufficiency skills which are a harmonious blend of Rambo-esque and Chaplinesque techniques, without being over the top sociopathic militaristic or isolationist obsessives but rather creative hobbyists. I can survive for about 6 months before things start getting,,,,,,,,,,fungry.

Srsly what am I doing with this little army of self-absorbed idiot commenters who just keep whining about precise concepts for 2-3 days every time there's an article on Zerzan or ITS? Can you fucking get a life or rise up?

Nihilists don't just jump up and " get a life" Things are little bit more complicated than that, oh, but you wouldn't understand that, because you're not a nihilist but rather a crass materialist puppet of morality.

Regardless of what people think, I'VE got the floor, and I'LL introduce my own theories concerning what nihilism stands for. For a start, the old definitions don't stand up, though Nietzsche came close for the era he lived in, now though, the Left and Right are dead, its massive binary morality is disintegrating and being replaced with a multi-faceted matrix of individual valencies all linked together by a cosmological awareness founded on the nihilist nothing, rather than the Other.