Arguing the validity of a kill due to your own personal standards makes you look petty. I'm sure the top guilds in the world could care less of the distinction nor your opinion, let alone your arguments.

Cheaters don't interest me. Regardless of whether they are 10 man or 25.

Ha, so you mean pretty much every top guild. They all exploit stuff. That's the way to stay at the top. It only starts mattering when Blizzard themselves come out and say what they did is a bad thing. If they didn't, then it's magically not cheating.

If they get Sha of Fear heroic world first, or Protectors of the Endless ELITE world first (lol) on 10man, it is them who will be remembered in 2 years as a guild who got the world first. This is what matters. And 10man counts just as much as 25man. Its not like they would not have got the world firsts if they were 25man. They have always been the best, and will be.

I'm surprised people are still insistent about this whole '25 man is the only competitive raiding', it's been two years since they were standardised. Yes, the balance is hit and miss and no fight can be truly, unambiguously equal to it's counterpart. But ultimately those imbalances converge to a situation where you need to take everything with a grain of salt.

Tier 11 was obviously harder as 10 man due to poor scaling, while t13 favoured 25 man in terms of difficulty bar stupid scaling of Spine that demanded class stacked. Every fight bar Spine had more forgiving mechanics as a 25 man raid. You can't simply say that 25 man will always be considered more difficult.

The whole idea of the coordination requirement for 25 man vs 10 has always bothered me since that's something people sign up for. And if the guild is productive at all there shouldn't be a difference in organisation.

This tier is still early days and as someone who's waiting to continue pushing for a world top 10 rank, I can say that the scaling is close enough to be irrelevant. Paragon's effort to overtake US guilds in this little time is a feat in itself, the mechanics are tuned tight as fuck for 25 and I wouldn't doubt that 10 man wouldn't be that far off it. Or else the top list would be filled with 10 man guilds that no one has ever heard of.

It's been two years guys, time to grow up and recognise the efforts of 10 man guilds as equal to 25 man.

Having people quit, not thinking you can compete in 25 anymore.. you take your 10 best players and best setup and own.. How's that even comparable really.

The fact that there are dozens of other extremely talented 10 man guilds out there, and they are blowing all of those out of the water, just goes to show how incredibly skilled and dedicated Paragon is as a guild.

It is a shame that the game developed the way it did towards the end of Cata, making so many of their members no longer interested in playing, but nevertheless they have always proved they are simply a world class guild.... and when you put (probably) the 10 best PvEers in the world in the same raid, things get done... quickly.

Big congrats to them. I think 25 mans will always hold a somewhat superior place in the minds of a lot of older players, since that is simply what we were used to being the top tier, but if you are sitting at 6/6N or 1/6H yourself (or worse) and all that comes to your mind when you hear of Paragon's kills are "Lawl 10 man", then grow up.

They are definitively not the best individuals, they are the best guild. Being talented doesn't make your team talented. It helps, and I am not saying they are not good. But individually you will see better player. They just play best as a team.

Paragon is 5/8 atm with their 10man setup, and the next 10man guild is 2/8, what does this tell you?
Just as comparison there are 8 25man guilds currently at 3/8 hc.
Some bosses are easier for 25m, some for 10m, but looks like 10man is overall harder this time.

Guys there are no "easy" raids on heroic pre-nerf. No matter if 10 or 25 man, it's a painful job to deal with. Paragon has been there all the time for 2 expansions so far, and that's the third ongoing, even if they had hard roster problems, even with that short amount of raiders they've left with, they still managed to kill 5 bosses on heroic difficulty in the 1st week of HC Raids.

So please don't talk crap about how 10-man is easier... If your guild can make this by that time on 10 man then be my guest, but I seriously doubt it. They are top players, they've always been, and you have to give them the credit they deserve for that. And I'm not a fan of them, but I really can't close my eyes and talk bullshit, while some players playing the same game I play are like miles away from thousands of people and even milions...

And btw I'm sure that if they had their strong old core for 25 man, they would've been probably in the same place now, maybe not 5 but 4 for sure.

.

Originally Posted by zomgDPS

I want to feel the zomg in my dpspants when I throw pyros at someones face. How do you keep that feeling of 'zomg' in your pants while still nerfing throughput?

Because 99.99% of all casual guilds are 10 man player? Not to mention pugs.
We easily pugged 6/6 first week ( though over multiple raids ) and this week pugged 6/6 in one raid.
The real results are so skewered that those numbers mean nothing.