10/28 I am a perfect man and I am never wrong. I tried to read the following
color blindness test and I cannot read it even though people around
me claim that they can read it. I think this is impossible because
I am a perfect person and I don't have color blindness and I find
it impossible that people can read it. How does it work? How much
time did you guys spend to "get it"? This is an impossible test.
I call it shenanaigans.
http://www.archimedes-lab.org/images8/reverse_ishihara.gif
\_ My color blind friend couldn't read it. He got mad at me when I
accused him of faking being color blind. Maybe you need to be a
certain kind of color blind.
\_ I see big and small circles of different colors. What am I supposed
to read?
\_ I see a n3kk3d gurl, you don't?
\_ Damn, http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html
actually says only color blind people can read it. No wonder
I can't. But what's strange is that even after I convert it
to B&W by using "Desaturate" in Photostop, I still can't read
to B&W by using "Desaturate" in Photoshop, I still can't read
it. -- PP
\_ Color blindness doesn't work that way. It's more like
color blind people cannot distinguish between two different
specific hues.
\_ 30? A trick question? Oh I can see it with my glasses off and
halway across the room from the monitor. Pretty funny.
\_ Somewhere back in the 90s, a pretty well known guy in networking
got his kid a summer job with LBL network operations. Part of
his job was making custom ethernet cables and such ... but
for some reason, the cables he made never seemed to work ...
which was awkward because his supervisor didnt want to tell
the dad that his was incompetent at cable punching. Eventually
they discovered he was colorblind and couldnt read the colored
wiring map or see the wires correctly, so nothing was connected
correctly.
\_ the kid says the whole thing is shinanigan because his
girlfriend can't do the job either. Since he and his
girlfriend are perfectly normal people, it's impossible,
or at best improbable. he calls it shinanigans!

2/10 If Neo gives you a choice of a blue pill or a red pill, which one
would you take and why?
\_ Which one is which again? Which one would you take?
\_ I'd take both and see if it crashes the system.
\_ Punch Neo, take his bottle of pills and give them to your friends
and see what happens to them.
\_ I'd take the blue pill, but only after forcing the red one into
Schwarzenegger's mouth.
\_ Neo? Morpheus was the one pushing the red & blue pills!
http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php

9/19 How many of your moms act weird? My mom has been calling/harrasing
me lately. A typical call would go something like this:
-I'm sick, I need to go to the hospital (she can't drive, can't
speak English)
-I will probably feel better after I nap
-You kids take care of yourselves
-I don't want to go to the hospital, I'm perfectly ok!
-I just want to take a nap call, it's ok I'm fine.
-But if I don't feel well I'll go to the hospital soon
-You kids need to learn to care take of yourselves (hello, I've
been living alone and supporting and taking care of myself
for over 10 years, if anything I'm the one providing)
-I can't read my letters (old age). No I don't need glasses I'm
perfectly healthy! I was the only person in college who didn't
need glasses, I still have 20/20 (bullshit!)
-Why do you sound so impatient, gosh I wish I never called you
(I'm at work and she calls me at the most inopportune moments)
She's nearing 70 and it's been 20 years since her menopause
and she acts crazier and crazier every year. Her tone and
demeaner... it's like she wants me to suffer mentally with her
or something.
\_ just TASE her
\_ You haven't met my mom.
\_ My mom got drunk and tried to shoot my dad with a shotgun.
No joke. But it wasn't loaded. She also once came around my
house and banged on my door shouting that I was a pedophile,
for the benefit of my neighbors.
\_ THANK YOU. You made me laugh and made me feel a LOT
better and less bitter about my mom. -op
\_ SHOTGUN??? Are you from Tennessee or Alabama by any chance?
\_ Are you an idiot? A shotgun is arguably *the* best home
defense weapon, especially when loaded with shot that won't
penetrate 2 layers of sheet rock.
\_ This is why I think all the futurists that claim "People born today
will live forever!" are idiots. Even if we could figure out how to fix
everything else, the brain deteriorates past about 60. What's the
will live forever!" are idiots. Even if we could figure out how
to fix
everything else, the brain deteriorates past about 20. What's the
point in being a 200 year old vegetable?
\_ If you assume what futurists assume about the promise of stem
cells, you may be able to constantly regenerate your brain.
\_ Like I said, idiots.
\_ That's ok, it might take that long to recover my SS taxes.
\_ My Dad is doing some of the same kind of whacked out stuff:
- Calls 911 and reports that he is having a heart attack, then
attacks the paramedics when they arrive.
- He is a retired peace officer, so instead of arresting him they
5150, then 5250 him and lock him up in the psych ward for two weeks\
- Immediately on getting out, he sells his house and moves waaay out
in the desert, living like the Unabomber.
- Now he calls me all the time and complains how lonely he is and
how he is thinking about shooting himself.
And he is only 64!
\_ Ha ha ha that is pretty hilarious and actually not that
uncommon! Welcome to the new age, where we have advanced
medical technology that'll extend lives of old people so
that they can live miserably longer, and spread their
misery to people around them. -guy in similar situation
\_ My parents are really normal in the 70s and 80s. Good luck.
\_ Different people age differently. We didn't have all these
age problems till people started living longer.
People from my dad's side age normally, but almost everyone
on my mom's side become crazy after they're in their late
30s. I guess I'll find out if I'll be normal or not very
soon. In the worst case, I'm a "carrier" of crazy genes.
\_ What culture or ethnicity are these parents in question?
\_ Chinese. -op
\_ I guessed as much. Mercury, selenium, and other heavy
metals poisoning?
\_ Uh, how the hell would I know? And I don't think it's
environmental because there are just as many crazy
assed Asian Americans (born in the US) as FOBs.
\_ 5th or 6th generation white American. Mostly German.
\_ It's the fish. Those heavy metals accumulate in
all the fish they eat.
\_ No you FUCKING DUMB ASS. As I said before crazy
assed Asian Americans (who have the same diet as
everyone else, you know, KFC, McD, Burger King,
Olive Gardens, Soup Plantation, etc) are
just as crazy as FOBs.
\_ Asian Americans still eat a lot of fish as
compared to the populace at large.
\_ 5th or 6th generation white American. Mostly German. -pp
\_ These are the rednecks with the guns?
\_ Does this explain the massive accounts of crazy Heil
German behaviors reported on Yahoo Odd News every day?
\_ On Loveline they used to play a game where they read
some crazy ass (but true) story and ask: "Florida
or Germany?"

7/27 ilyas, if healthcare has no positive effects, to what then do we
attribute the huge increase in expected human lifespan in rich
industrialized countries over the last 100 years? Of course improved
sanitation is one obvious cause, but it can't account for everything.
\_
\_ Have you actually read the study? They weren't comparing 'medicine'
to 'no medicine,' but 'free medicine' to 'medicine you pay for
yourself.' They found almost no positive effect except in I think
two cases. One was optometry, and I forget the other one, but
essentially the statistics would expect one positive result like
that just from the noise. The 'causal explanation' is that if you
perceive the healthcare as 'free' you go in for more procedures and
this becomes counterproductive, whereas if you pay for everything
yourself, you tend to go see a doctor when you think you really
need it, and in that case medical intervention is far far more likely
to actually be beneficial. (They adjusted for things like income
and initial health of course). -- ilyas
\_ Did you read the study yourself? They were comparing
free medical care to cost-sharing--not to "medicine you pay
for yourself". They found positive effects including 10%
reduced morbitity due to hypertension in the population that
got free medical care. They found the population that
cost-shared went to doctors less often for *all kinds* of
procedures, including highly effective ones. And the positive
effects were more pronounced among the poorest of the population.
The study simply doesn't say what you says it does. Also, it
was done in 1982 and health care has changed enormously since
then, particularly in the U.S. And, you're a moron. -tom
\_ From the actual study pdf results section (not the glitzy 2006
html summary you read): "For the 'average' person enrolled in
the experiment, we observed two significant positive effects of
free care relative to cost-sharing: corrected far vision
(i.e., when the enrolle was wearing his or her usual glasses
or contact lenses) was better by 0.1 Snellen lines
(p = 0.001) and diastolic blood pressure was lower by 0.8 mm
Hg (p = 0.03). For the remaining measures, confidence limits
for the differences between the free and cost-sharing plans
were sufficiently narrow to conclude that, for the average
participant, any true differences would be clinically and
socially negligible." Yes, clearly the subjects didn't
pay for the entire care themselves (although in one regime
it was 95% of the cost I think), nor did I imply they did --
I used the same 'summary language' the study authors did
themselves. I won't call you a moron, I ll let history
be the judge. -- ilyas
\_ ilyas is a moron -history
\_ But... but... but he'e my FRIEND!! *sob*
--the invisible hand
\_ Ilyas, would you please re-post your link? Either someone
keeps deleting it or I've just missed it. Thanks.
\_ Search for 'jrleek.' -- ilyas

4/4 hey sky I thought you lived in the bay area
http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,,1746333,00.html?gusrc=rss
The strange case of the man who took 40,000 ecstasy pills in
nine years
\_ That's Sparky. "Uh..uh..uh...fuggit." -John
\_ Are you sure this is sky? Sounds like dans to me.
\_ Agreed. The exclamation marks, capitalization, and
the fact that he responds to trolls 24x7 are all leading
indicators that dans is on meth. sky on the other hand
is on weeds.
\_ At least he freebases with his circle of friends.
\_ Will dans stop the madness before he becomes the next
muchandr?!
\_ Troll harder. -dans
\_ Troll harder. By the way, I seem to be missing the volume of
the New England Journal of Medicine that published the
double-blind study correlating motd posting habits to drug
use. Why don't you post a link to the article so the rest of
us can read it? -dans
\_ So that's like what, 4 kilos of MDMA?

12/5 Testing
\_ Failed.
\_ More testing.
\_ And again, just to be sure.
\_ What is my name. How about now.
\_ What is my name now.
\_ Your powers are weak old man.
\_ Yes, I apparently don't have a name.
\_ Who picked the names?
\_ I suspect it's just kchang's way to poke people in the eye.
People he doesn't like get hitler, etc.
\- Why can't we choose our own names?
No, I tried it before & it didn't work!
I had four guys fighting over Mr. Black
\_ Mr. Black may not be such a popular name here.
\_ I guess this brings name calling to a whole new level.
\_ What's my name then?
\_ This is a test of the emergency motd ID system.
\_ Note to FBI: billclinton likes kiddie porn. Please sieze his PC.
\_ Can't wait for amckee to get freaky and try to sorry darthVader.
\_ heh, good one!
\_ I feel your pain.
\_ I did not have sex with that woman.
\_ I am NOT a Troll.
\_ I did not have sex with that Troll.
\_ I am NOT a woman.

8/30 Chavez offers us fuel and food on top of free eye surgery.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/pl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil
Now we REALLY need to assassinate him.
\_ Ha! He has succumed to the dreaded threat of Pat Robertson!
\_ I don't think he understands that we kick our poor people when
they're down.
\_ Hehe. I actually think he's pretty funny.
\_ Al Capone was actually a hero in the 30s to the really poor
people in Chicago. He setup cafes to feed the people who
would have starved to death during the great depression. How
he got money to setup cafes is another story. Today, we are
in need of another hero. We need someone to take money from
Bill Gates, Walmart Waltons, and other super wealthy kings
to give wealth back to the poor. We have no such hero today.

6/15 So the Schiavo autopsy shows her brain was hopelessly deteriorated
and damaged beyond all hope of any recovery. What you want to bet
this isn't going to change anyone's mind?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/national/15cnd-schiavo.html?ex=1276488000&en=f3948639dfbb578b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
\_ The below "debate" just goes to show that my last sentence was
entirely correct. --op
\_ What say we all stop feeding dgies' fanaticism right now, and save
us all the pain?
\_ I wrote one post, smartypants (excluding this). -dgies
\_ Oops. Indeed. My bad. It's sooper-anonymous troll
(emarkp? reiffin? jblack?)
\_ Still your bad. Why are you naming people when you *know*
it can't possibly be all 3 and likely isn't any of them?
How about you just get over it or go talk to kchang about
his tracker. You could have easily checked login times to
shorten that list, too. Sheesh, so lazy. So presumptive.
\_ The question wasn't whether her brain was undamaged. It was how she
could respond given the condition of her brain.
\_ midichlorians.
\_ But a lot of the BS right wingers were claiming, such as the
"alleged MD" Dr. Bill Frist and her being able to follow a
balloon is clearly false since according to the autopsy she was
blind, which I assume is because her vision center was not there
anymore.
\_ Seriously. I think frist is a disgrace to harvard medical
school for his completely dumbass and uninformed opinions
in this schiavo situation. I think every neurologist in
the country was disgusted and offended by his comments.
\_ Heh. You should hear what surgeons (Frist is one) say
about neurologists. Actually, you should hear what most
doctors say in private about neurologists.
\_ What do they say? My neighbor is a neurologist,
so I hear what neurologists say about "most
doctors".
\_ Neurology is for people who really aren't
interested in being a doctor, in the sense that
neurologists rarely save lives or make real impact.
Neurologists tend to have cush residencies and
careers. When is the last time one has to be
called in to handle a neurological emergency?
Despite its cushness, neurology tends to be one of
the easiest residency programs to get into, mostly
because of low pay and lack of respect from doctors
in other specialties, and end up attracting the
least talented and/or ambitious med school grads.
That's just what my brother (UCD surgery prof.),
his wife (anesthesiologist), and their colleagues
say (when I asked the question at one Xmas party).
\_ Um, I think it has more to do with the fact that
they have to interact with crazy people. I mean
really batshit violent fucking CRAZY people.
\_ Uh, ok, if you say so, 'cuz the people I
polled didn't. Of course, I only polled,
oh, 10-ish doctors at the party, and you're
not a doctor at all.
\_ heh, there were neurologists there saying
how disrespected neurologists are?
\_ Thinking back (this was a couple of
years ago), I think there were 1
radiologist and 1 cardiologist at the
party. The rest were surgeons and
anesthesiologists.
Frankly your doctor friends sound pretty
arrogant and laughable. "make real impact"
indeed. --not a doctor
\_ Arrogant? I thought I already said they're
mostly surgeons or people who have had 1 or
more years of surgical training as part of
their residency.
\_ sounds like they think only surgeons are
really worthwhile. i dunno, the whole
thing about being worried about prestige
and all that seems distasteful to me.
\_ I think prestige from some ignorant
public is silly. I think respect and
acknowledgement from your peers reflect
underlying reality about the nature of
your job.
\_ Look, everyone knows surgeons
are assholes. My neighbor is
very bright (Stanford) and overall
it seems many neurologists are. He
works with paraplegics and such,
getting called to the hospital
constantly. I don't know how
well neurologists are respected, but
- like I said - surgeons are
assholes and your friends don't
seem to be exceptions. FWIW, some of
the best and smartest doctors I know
who do all kinds of cool things
(outside of medicine) like build
telescopes are pediatricians.
Surgeons are valuable and make a lot
of money, but it gives many of them
egos they don't deserve.
\_ Odd you mention pediatricians.
My brother's ex- is a pediatrics
prof at Stanford, and she's a
generally nice person. She also
confirmed the unflattering
characterization of neurologists.
Her agreement was what led me to
ask the question at the Xmas
party.
\_ For surgeons to pass this judgement
on non-surgeons doesn't fit this
criteria in my opinion.
\_ And how relevant is it for non-
doctors to pass judgement...
\_ I'm not confident enough in any doctor that I'd believe such
an assertion. We really can't know for sure because she was
killed without investigation.
\_ So you put more faith in Frist's (who didn't even examine
her) opinion than in 1) her own doctors and 2) the ME...
Fuck off.
\_ Fuck off yourself. I don't put any stock in Frist's
comments. I've seen the video of her tracking things
with her eyes.
\_ So did Frist. That was a few moments from hours of
tape. What's Hecuba to him...
\_ You know they filmed her for something like 20 hours
and then edited it down to the one or two times
where her random movements made it appear that
she was looking at something, right?
\_ if she can track once every 20 hours,
she has more clue than you twink
|_ even a stopped clock tells the right time
twice a day.
\_ok , a broken clock has more clue than
you twinky boy
\_ Perhaps you should look up 'random',
'coincidence' and 'probabilistic'....
\_ I know that critics *claimed* this. It's obvious
the tape is edited. However I don't know of any
facts that show it was "20 hours" or something
like that.
\_ You haven't even done the least bit of
research into it then. Try Google.
Here's a clue, take two and call me
in the morning:
http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html
\_ Autopsy showed no evidence of bulemia. Which was Michael's stated
reason for her collapse.
\_ big deal.
\_ Why did she collapse then?
\_ She had a heart attack for some unknown reason 15 years ago.
Her parents remained on very good terms with her husband, and
only after he tries to pull the plug there are allegations that
he had been abusing her. Someone without medical training
guessed the cause of the heart attack wrong. And your point is?
\_ Her blood had no trace of enzymes released during a heart
attack. What is your proof that she had a heart attack?
\_ um, enzymes don't hang around for 15 years.
\_ They took her blood when she was admitted to the
hospital. It showed depressed potassium (leading
people to speculate about bulemia but the autopsy
report today says it was consistent with fluids
she received by IV before the blood was drawn).
There were no cardiac enzymes found in heart
attack victims.
\_ Did they exist 15 years ago?
\_ I meant that a heart attack 15 years
ago might have released some enzymes
at that time, but there's no way they'd
still linger around till now (15 years
later)
\_ God, this is sounding more and more like
the old .9999... == 1 free-for-alls..

3/4 Is Visine Red Out a bad thing? My optometrist said I shouldn't use it
because bloody vessels supply oxygen to my eyes and that if I use it
too much my eyes will "suffocate", whatever that means. Is it really
true that it's bad for your eyes, and if so, isn't Visine a dangerous
product to sell?
\_ If it gets the red out, then it must cause the blood vessels
to contract, even the normal ones, restricting blood supply.
Moderate use is probably fine, but like most medicines, overuse
is dangerous. Listen to your optometrist, he's making sense.
\_ what a brilliant idea, take the MOTD's advice on eye health over
that of your optometrist. Also, you should go back to him and
ask him how to configure iptables. -tom
\_ Too bad all the people that know how to run the country are
busy being sysadmins for ucb, eh tom? -- ilyas
\_ I'm not a sysadmin. And last I checked, Dubya wasn't asking
me how to run the country. -tom
\_ That's true. In fact, nobody is asking you. This doesn't
seem to stop your proclamations however. -- ilyas
\_ Do you have a point? I think it would also be stupid
for Dubya to ask the MOTD how to run the country.
(Though perhaps it would work out better than the
people he's currently asking). -tom
\_ Let's take a little vote, shall we? Suppose you
HAD to vote for Tom, Ilyas, or Bush, and had no
other alternative, who would you vote for?
Bush: ..
Tom: ..
\_ FUCK YOU TOM, FUCK YOURSELF AND FUCK YOUR MAMA
and BTW you can't vote for yourself DUMB FUCK
Ilyas: .
\_ which one gets the Red out? Pro-Visine?
\_ Try reading "The Wisdom of Crowds." Oh hell, it's Tom,
don't even bother...
\_ WAIT A MINUTE is this thread about Visine or is it really about
tom and ilyas?
\_ WARNINGS:
As the possibility of adverse effects on the corneal permeability and
the danger of disruption of the corneal epithelium with prolonged or
repeated usage of benzalkonium chloride preserved ophthalmological
preparation cannot be excluded, regular ophthalmological examination
is required. Caution should be exercised in the use of benzalkonium
chloride preserved topical medication over an extended period in
patients with extensive ocular surface disease.
\_ Why not ask an opthamologist instead of an optometrist?

2/15 http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/diet.fitness/02/11/juice.abuse.ap
Natural juices are just as unhealthy as soda, drink water instead!
\_ Nothing is healthy anymore! Screw it and just drink beer!
\_ Guinness does contain many vitamins and
minerals in small quantities, but is lacking vitamin C,
as well as calcium and fat. So, to fulfil all of your
daily nutritional requirements you would need to drink a
glass of orange juice, two glasses of milk, and 47 pints
of Guinness.
\_ "My liver and kidney's hurt." -the guy who peed his way
out of an avalanche.

2/1 What are some good places to buy contact lens online?
\_ http://1800contacts.com
\_ Not cheap and slow because they actually verify w/ the doctor
\_ Not cheap. And slow because they actually verify w/ the doctor
\_ They all do now.
http://csua.com/?entry=32459
\_ If you can find a cheaper place, I would love to hear
about it. I have been buying my daily disposables from
them for years, and with bulk discount, they are still
$25/box. My optometrist wants to charge me $35. -ausman
\_ One datapoint: Accuvue2 on 1800contacts is $19.99.
Go to any other contact place on google, you'll see
anywhere between $15.50 to $17.50.
\_ Okay, this is cheaper, $5/box even!
http://csua.org/u/axy
Thanks! -ausman
\_ How is that $5/box?
\_ On the same subject can anyone recommend a good optometrist
in Berkeley/Oakland. Last time I went on campus they took
forever and fucked up my perscription.
\_ I have been going to Dr. Wong on Shattuck forever and
think he is great. If you decide to go, tell him I
sent you! -ausman
\_ I recommend Dr. Yokoi at Rockridge Optometry
on College Ave. in Rockridge. I've been to several
optometrists and opthalmologists in the near east
bay and he is the best. --chris

9/30 What causes the particle like thing that floats in your vision
when you look at the sky? My eye doctor casually mentioned
that if I notice an abnormal amount of particles floating,
then I should have it checked out. Come to think of it, it's
always there from the beginning of time. What exactly is it?
It moves even if my eyes are not moving... I am curious if
there are some technical explanation behind it...
\_ ghosts, demons. etc
\_ Crap floating in the vitreus humor (inside your eyeball).
\_ So do most people have it? does it occur more with
near sightness?
\_ dad, the optometrist, calls them floaters. everyone
has them, and they tend to accumlate with age. like
dust that gets into a camera.
\_ so how come their number goes way up when you're about
to pass out from getting choked? or is "seeing stars"
differnt?
\_ Everyone has it. It increases as you age.
\_ more on floaters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
\_ I've always wondered about that since grade school. So wow.
I learned something today.

9/1 Dear hard contact lens wearer: I'm on my second day now and
it's actually not too bad. The secret to wearing it, I think,
is to not get any tear in it. Otherwise, it'll bounce crazy.
It's kind of anti-intuitive. The more uncomfortable it is,
the more tear you get, but the more tear you get, the more
uncomfortable you get. You just have to learn to control it
subconsciously I think.
\_ hey, your contact may not been fit correctly. May be you should
get a slightly bigger lens?
\_ what are some figures I should get from my doctor? I didn't
get the prescription from him. -op
\_ i agree. contacts should NOT be bouncing around like crazy.
maybe a slight movement up and down when blinking, if anything.
\_ Have you worn hard contacts? I used to wear gas permeable
semi-rigids and what he describes was exactly what I
experienced.
\_ what brands do you guys wear? I wean Menicon Plateau, but maybe
ZWave should've been better...

8/31 Dear hard contact lense experts: I'm wearing my first pair
now (I have to wear them because of problems w/denegerative
cornea) and they're a bitch to wear. Did you have to build
up tolerance and how long did it take you before you can
wear them comfortably the entire day? ok thx
\_ If you are suffering from keratoconus, there are alternative
treatments to both stop and reverse the condition. I had a
rather successful procedure done on my own right eye and I
do not need to wear hard contacts. -williamc
\_ surgeon/clinic/hospital? THANK YOU.
\_Dr. Boxer-Wachler is my opthanologist. Please email
me or do a websearch for more details. The procedure
is somewhat involved and rather expensive. However,
your insurance will cover at least a portion of it.
Keep in mind, the SOONER that you do this the less
progressive your keratoconous becomes and the better
your results will be.
-williamc
\_ what treatment did you have (the name)? Thanks
\_ I had C3R and Intacts. I had the option of PRK
but it is highly dangerous for keratoconus because
it could cause further degeneration. You can find
out about it more on the web. AFAIK the physician
is the only one that does this (keratoconus is a very
rare disease, perhaps 150,000 cases in the US). -williamc
\_ The first time I put them on, my eyes were tearing the whole
time. It took me about a week or two before I could
wear them for the whole day.
\_ i tried to wear hard lenses, but they were just too
uncomfortable - the lenses would bounce around every time i
blinked. i gave up after a while and went back to glasses.
\_ like the above poster said, it takes a week or so to get used to
them. the only times they bother me now is when i get eyelashes
in between, which happens surprisingly often. oh, and i've
accidentally slept with them on overnite... no adverse effects,
unlike the time i slept with soft contacts, and the world was a
blur the next morning.

8/17 Has anyone had to switch from soft->hard contacts because of
keratoconus, in which the hard contact lenses are custom made to
fit the irregularities? What are hard contact lenses like?
\_ I made that switch once. It hurt like a bitch. It felt like
my cornea was being pinched and stretched to the point where
the image I was seeing was being distorted. I finally
returned the hard lenses after a week.
\_ I switched from soft to hard. Hard lenses are not very comfortable.
whe you wear it, you feel like there is a hair in your eye all
the time. Worse, when something got into your eyes, it hurts like
hell. However, I prefer hard over soft because I don't feel the
drieness. I can wear hard lens for 16-17 hours straight without
feeling dry in my eyes. Further, hard lenses are easier to take
care off. Thus, despite all its short-comings, I prefer hard
over soft.

8/10 More on Lasik. I had a second opinion from a really famous
surgeon from Stanford Medical and he told me to lay off on
any more laser enhancements which may fuck up my eyes even
more. In fact he told me to wait a few more generations until
the effects of Lasik on the "higher order aberrations" are
more well known.
A lot of the Lasik hype is based on how well one can see
the black and white chart during daytime and while it is true
that most of the Lasik patients will see 20/20 or better based
on this test, it is weird that there does not exist a single,
quantitative pre and post Lasik study on other important
measurements such as glare, halos, starburst, loss of contrast,
and many other debilitating symptoms. Surely companies like
Visx and Bauch&Lomb would have such studies when they tested
their machines, right? But in fact, they're absent from the
doctors I talked to. Not surprisingly, they're also absent from
the public. -20/20 during day time, totally fucked up at night
\_ what's wrong with your eyes at night? what symptoms are you
having?
\_ It's not weird at all that studies are non-existant. Doctors
make a lot of money from these procedures, and that's pretty
much all they care about. If the studies showed that it was
unsafe then their cash-cow would be taken away.

8/9 If your eyes are over -7.00, DO NOT get Lasik. The technology is just
not there yet -bitter Lasik fucked up guy
\_ my 2 cents as geek who doesn't know much about it:
the technology of cutting eyes with lasers to fix them will
*never* be "there." materials science will progress to the point
where all optical problems can be solved with something that
resembles a contact lense in form, but is very much more
advanced. If I had to guess, I'd say about 25 years from now
there'll be good technology for this sort thing, and it won't
look anything like lasik.
\_ I agree. I will never let a computer cut my eyes via laser either.
I think in the distant future, we may figure out a way for our
eyes to regenerate or change form by applying some external
influences... As for right now, I am happy waring glasses.
\_ by "over," do you mean "better than" or "worse than?"
\_ I am sorry to hear about you being messed up, but can you share a
little more about your situation? I have been pressured (and have
been brushing them aside) to get Lasik and the likes. I am about
-6.50.
\_ What do these number mean? I know I am about 400 from the eye
doctor....
\_ if you can't get Wavefront, don't do it. Look up "higher order
aberrations" and "complication" on Google. The technology is
improving, but for people with high myopia, the rate at which
your eyes heal is still a big unknown factor (no machine can
precisely tell you what your "regression" rate will be), so
you could end up over-corrected by +1-2. I'm hyperoptic now
by about +2.00. Lasik technology is just not there yet. -op
\_ Is being hyperoptic good or do your eyes feel strained
all of the time?
\_ Why should anyone pressure you? Your eyes are yours ....
\_ so i should Lasik in one eye (r: 8.75, l: 5.00) =)
\_ When did you get your Lasik? I hear that technology has been
improving leaps and bounds year-by-year (wavefront, etc.).
\_ Yeah it's like computers. Wait if you can. Anyways, tayq,
2 years ago with traditional Lasik. Then a touch-up (total fuck
up) this year. TOTAL FUCK UP. -op, bitter and depressed
\_ fuck up as in doctor / machine error? or fuck up as in
technology error?
\_ doctor looks at my age, medical history, current
prescription, then plugs into his equation. I was X,
and he corrected me X-1, where the 1 was the estimated
regression (overcorrection) in 3 months. I never really
healed. After getting 2nd and 3rd opinion from different
places, I've come to realize that NO DOCTOR will ever
know the regression rate. Lasik is like an art, not
science. The technology is just not there. -op
\_ Please check out the followings, I have them -op:
http://www.surgicaleyes.org/LossofContrast.htmhttp://www.surgicaleyes.org/GlareBursting.htmhttp://www.visionsimulations.com (cool sites)
\_ yes there is risk, yes technology will improve, but life
is short. I noticed I am getting more hot chicks after
I got lasik. also, I play lots of contact sports. much
more convenient now.
\_ Maybe you're actually picking up butt-ugly chicks, but can't
tell because of your screwed up operations?
\_ I didn't know those fools uses spheric approximation when they
performs Lasik. This is so fucked up. My friend's eyes suffered
abberration of some sort (not sure if it's a chromatic abberation,
cuz he doesn't have a clue). His vision at night sucks... etc.
For those who are thinking about it, here is what I got from
an opthmaligist who is a ritna specialist and doesn't do
eye surgery herself (thus, no conflict of interest):
1. Believe me or not, there are benefits of using a Diamond Blade
. Believe me or not, there are benefits of using a Diamond Blade
over laser. Two important factors include a. less painful, and b.
wounds are much easier to heal.
2. If you are at age of 30, you need to think really hard about
this, as your cornea is going to go bad at around age of 36-37
anyway. By then, you probably need reading glasses regardless.
Would 6-7 years of perfect vision worth the risk and price?
3. Eye doctors dont like cornea to be weaken for any reason.
Most people will get cataract when they are old. Doctors simply
don't know how would a cornea weaken by Lasik perform when it
needs to be weakened further by the cataract surgery.
\-just out of curiosity, why do the pillsbury doughboys among
you especially object to wearing glasses? i mean i can understand
if you are doing a lot of scuba diving, or using a microscope,
but what is the problems for you pentium and xbox jockeys?
\_ My uncle is an ophthalmologist. He as a saying regarding
lasik, rk, &.c: "If the optometrist gives you a bad pair of
glasses, you can get another pair. If the surgeon gives you
a bad pair of eyes, you can't get another pair".
\_ Duh. It isn't a technology problem. It is a surgical procedure and
like *all* surgical procedures it carries risks. The technology, as
you say, will never be there by your standards. It is a personal
decision. It is the right thing for some people. It is the wrong
thing for others. Research the procedure, the potential negative
after effects, and your doctor. Ask questions. It is not a miracle
cure-all like the op seems to have mistakenly believed before
undergoing a surgical procedure.
--never had lasik, has common sense op lacks

8/3 Anybody noticed Steve Jobs' glasses? He wears the rimless kind with
round lenses. I'm in love with those glasses and I've been trying
to find them. There are plenty of rimless frames out there but
I haven't been able to find one that has ROUND lenses just like
Steve's. If you know of one, please let me know. Thanks.
-steve jobs #1 fan

7/24 How do you buy contact lenses online without dealing with an
optomotrist? It seems that the sites that used to let you fake your
doctor info have "cracked down" on people exercising their right
to freely purchase products.
\_ My god! Are you people that cheap? Just go to an eye doctor
and get an examination. It's probably a better idea than
self-prescribing your own contacts. Many health plans will
cover it too.
\_ spoken like someone who's mommy and daddy are paying for
(paid for) his college education.
\_ of course not. i have no objection to paying for services,
i just object to being *forced* by the government to pay
for those services. should i be forced at gunpoint to go
to a podiatrist before I buy shoes? or a dentist before
i buy a toothbrush? where does it end? I know exactly
what my prescription is, and know exactly which brand i've had
great luck with for the last ten years of wearing contacts.
every time a law is written to force people to pay money for
services they don't want or need to protect some special interest
we take one step closer to tyrany.
\- the problem are the industries which self-regulate [sic].
see e.g. nolo v. texas --psb
\_ self regulate? you understand that there's a federal law
\-well naturally part of self-regulation has to do with
limiting competition by legal barriers. --psb
preventing free(as in freedom) purchase of contacts, right?
i can actually go to jail for trying to buy little pieces
of plastic to help me see better. oh, and you know what
else? i can go to jail for buying my cotacts from a
canadian store, thanks to the policy passed by mr.
"free trade" bush. so here's a big "fuck you" to all you
libertarians who vote for bush as a "lesser evil."
\_ No libertarian would vote for bush. It is funny to
contrast the apologist way the Greens talk about nader
vs the almost weekly mails i get from the libs saying
"hey, some article says we are taking votes away from
bush, isn't that great!" -phuqm
\_ Tell ilya that.
\_ Didn't I tell you already I am voting Nader?
-- ilyas
\_ Are you serious?
\_ Yes, I am splitting the liberal vote
in a non-battleground state. -- ilyas
\_ In other news, Satan seen making snowmen!
\_ Wouldn't libertarians vote for the libertarian
candidate and greens for the green one, etc?
\_ I bought mine from http://www.lensmart.com
\_ did they contact your optomotrist or was the transaction free
as in freedom?
\_ I bought them last year. I wasn't aware there's a new
federal law.
\_ Februrary 2004. welcome to the fourth Reich.
\_ Just go get lasik and stop whining about your freedom of whatever.
You'd be the first asshole to sue the online place for destroying
your eyes if you misprescribed yourself.
\_ why don't you go move to some totalitarian state where people
have learned not to whine when their goverment masters control
the petty details of their lives. i'm sure you'll be happier
there. I know I'll be happier when you are gone. -phuqm.
\_ if this is the biggest concern you have about what your
government is doing to you then you live in a utopia. there
are billions of people around the rest of the world who wish
they could live in a place where their biggest gripe is the
government insisted they see an eye doctor as part of their
contact renewal. you, sir, are a big cry baby and have no
clue what a totalitarian state looks like. contact lenses?
get real. the only thing you missed was calling everyone
a nazi. you're a deluded selfish little bratty baby. contact
lenses... totalitarian state... i'm too stunned to go on.

7/20 anyone got LASIK in bay area? which doctor did you use and results?
\_ got LASIK, totally fucked up my night vision. Very sad...
\_ so where did you go get it done?
\_ makes no difference, I did it before WaveFront was out.
I'm about 9.5 both eyes and WaveFront was usable for up
to 7.0, so I had the traditional Lasik done. Turns out
traditional LASIK really sucks because it doesn't correct
higher order aspherical aberrations. My advise to you is
to wait 5-10 more years when the technology is better.
Otherwise you'll live with a fucked up vision like mine.
-bitter Lasik patient
\_ me and 3 friends all got lasik from dr. epstein in the chicago
area. we are all happy. company paid $2k, I paid $800. Get
a good doctor of course, but there is always some risk. the
worse your condition, the higher the risk.
\_ 1/3 of how your eyes turn out, depends on how your eyes heal.
The other 1/3 is the technology (how much accuracy/prediction
can the machine make?). The other 1/3 is the doctor. The
doctor has very little control on how your eyes heal and how
well the Lasik machine can accurately map your eyes. In another
word people have the perception that the doctor is really
important, when in fact, he/she has very little control on the
other 2/3 of the factors. I paid $3000 for both eyes to a
really good doctor (opthm fellowship, Jules Stein fellow,
awards, great record, etc etc), but my night vision is still
totally fucked up. The technology is just not there yet. I'd
wait if I were you. -bitter Lasik patient
\_ out of curiosity, have you found any medical explanation
for why your night vision was selectively affected?
\_ larger than normal pupil, corneal healing rate not
normal, and above all, using traditional Lasik which
did not do as good of a mapping as Wavefront (Wavefront
is 25X more accurate for the higher order abberations).
I talked to many doctors. They all said a doctor could
do everything correctly such as my case, but there are
far greater things that are out of his control.
\_ what's the relationship to night vision specifically?
(wrt lasik)
\_ doesn't a larger than normal pupil eliminate you
as a potential lasik candidate? (Lasik reshapes
the lens. People with larger than normal pupil
have their pupil expand beyond the area of
reshaping when light is low, and this will
cause a problem (halo, etc.))
\_ technology is not there for people with severe Rx and
etc.... If you are a reasonable candidate, it works
perfectly. I went to Scott Hyver, had this WaveFront
thing. My eyesight is now perfect day and night.
He made a point of telling me what characterstics of
my eyes did or did not make me a good candidate, and
said that as an ethical Dr. he would only perform
surgery appropriate for the individual.

5/18 Is there a way to find out information about your doctor, like history,
school where he got the MD from, malpractice, lawsuits, etc? Question
2, can you request information from the hospital, like lab results,
x-ray, injection used during the surgery, etc? any help would be
appreciated.
\_ For #2, if you mean *your* medical records then of course!
\_ Sounds like you need to call a lawyer.
\_ 1: State Medical Board. http://www.medbd.ca.gov
\_ I second the website for state medical board. You can check your
doctor online. You can also call the medical board of CA and talk
to someone live. You also have every right to all your medical
records. With new HIPAA laws, though, you will probably have to
fill out a request form, or otherwise put a letter in writing
requesting specified medical records. I make it a habit to
check all my doctors, and I keep a copy of significant medical
records (like for surgeries) for myself. Not a bad idea these
days. --chris

5/10 Work safe. Humiliation cartoon.
http://www.lucianne.com/routine/images/05-11-04.jpg
\_ While not denying your cartoon has a point, I'm shocked by the
apologists coming out of the woodwork talking about a double
standard, that "the terrorists" can use torture but we can't,
boo hoo hoo. Of course there's a double standard! We're Americans;
we know better than that, we are better than that. We're the most
powerful nation on earth, we're singlehandedly defining right and
wrong militarily, and the Limbaughs and O'Reillys of the world
are saying that our troops were just having a good time, that it was
ok to beat and humiliate helpless prisoners. THAT's disgusting.
\_ Some useful questions to think about:
(a) Is torture ever justified (another phrasing: are you a
utilitarian)?
\- you are clouding the issue by introducing utilitarianism.
\_ Like the mighty squid. A true utilitarian should have
the balls to look at torture and shrug. -- ilyas
\_ A true utilitarian would want to see the cost-
benefit analysis before signing off on torture.
\-utils dont ness distinguish between the source
or distribution of the benefits. like "i enjoy
torture" vs "to save the children" --psb
Past experience (South and Central America)
suggests that torture has a very limited benefit
and serious longterm fallout. Don't confuse
utilitarianism with sociopathy.
\_ It depends on who you torture, why, how, and who
would care and how much if it got out.
\-yes but a ultilitarian would not necessarily
require it be for some important national purpose.
interesting litmus test for would be utilitarians
say sufficiently high TV ratings would do it in
some conceptions of utilitarianism. --psb
\_ holy shit! that is brilliant! thank you! you
have given me the next great reality tv idea. i
can't thank you enough! this is why you have a
motd fan base.
\- "Torture TV" is a standard hypothetical that
comes up in critiques of util. In fact one of
the other "standard hypos" involves torture
of a spy in wartime. Also relevant to this
is the notion of norm setting [see rule util,
and the questions, should you chop up a sick
person in a hospital to save 5 people with
transplanted parts]. But even defenders of
util in the war torture example would ack
you have to be sure you have the right guy
and that he has somethinof a spy in wartime. Als
o relevant to this
is the notion of norm setting [see rule util,
and the questions, should you chop up a sick
person in a hospital to save 5 people with
transplanted parts]. But even defenders of
util in the war torture example would ack
you have to be sure you have the right guy
and that he has something to say. You may
wish to read B. Williams [ucb, dead], or
Taking Rights Seriously. --psb
\_ Ok, so I haven't read anything on util.
philosophy. It's still great and needs to
be done! The People Demand Entertainment!
I think it'll be something like you get more
money the more torture you choose to suffer
but if you break you lose all the money you
earned to that point. That's good for about
3 seasons before it gets a little stale and
needs to get spiced up a bit.
\_ I find the 'conventional' conception of
utilitarianism hard to stomach as is. I am just
pointing out the current situation as an
interesting litmus test for would-be utilitarians
here on the motd. What if there were no
pictures, and the mental torture was done
professionally? Would it be ok then? I have
some difficulty saying 'yes.' -- ilyas
\- issue now clouded.
\_ I'm not a utility, but torture is justified if
a guy clearly knows some stuff on which lives
depend and doesn't talk. That leaves a lot of
you something important.
room for abuse though since they don't really
know who might know anything. So I'm not happy
with a generic "torture everybody just in case"
setup. I don't imagine that would be be of
much utility anyway.
\_ Nonononono, you don't torture them "just in
case. You torture them primarily _because_
it is fun and also because they might tell
in other news, i heard J. BENTHAM's head fell off. --psb
\- Auto-Correction: Head was procured in a scrum.--psb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham
\_ is it strictly a utilitarianism question? is
withholding medication a prisoner needs torture?
is withholding drugs? is withholding illegal drugs
ok if you're a doctor and you're trying to wean someone
off drugs? is withholding also ok if you're a drug
lord teaching someone a lesson? how about if you're
trying to convert the prisoner from some other cause?
would it matter if the "other cause" is islam or
some cult with a messiah figure, 7 wifes, and 20
children living in a shack in texas?
(b) Is physical torture 'worse' than psychological torture?
\_ Some is, some isn't. There's a whole lot of ways to
permanently fuck up someone's head while barely touching
them.
\_ There are four lights!
(c) Is the defining moral characteristic of an act the _effect_
or the _attitude_? -- ilyas
\_ Hi, thanks for coming forward. We knew you enjoyed it.
\_ I have no unsigned posts on the motd at the moment.
I don't even remember the last time I started a non-CS
thread. Thanks for playing. -- ilyas
\_ Whoever is trying to argue with Ilya, don't bother.
Its like arguing with concrete, and about as
enlightening.
\_ actually, I like to see ilyas post. he's almost
elevated himself to Fan #1 status.
\_ Well, you either take my word for it, or think I am
a liar. I don't mind either outcome, really.
-- ilyas
\_ it looks like you missed a joke of some sort there
\_ Has O'Reilly actually condoned or excused the bahavior? Or is
this just another dig at conservatives in general? (I *have*
seen Rush's comments BTW, but no reference to O'Reilly). -emarkp
\_ I haven't seen/heard O'Reilly say anything like calling it
fraternity hazing but it is convenient for some people to just
lump all the opposition together and pin all of them with what
one of them said.
\_ If you've never seen an Imperialist cartoon, this is one!

1/25 My doctor says he can lessen astigmatism with glasses but not with
regular contacts (both do nearsight but only one does astigmatism).
First of all, I've always thought both were the same. Secondly,
how come contacts don't lessen astigmatism?
\_ correction of astigmatism requires a lense not be rotationally
symmetric: there must be some special orientation. Glasses are
of course always fixed in their orientation, but contacts are
generally at a random orientation. I think there are actually
expensive contacts with weights on one edge that can correct
astigmatism.
\_ Ahhh I see... so is this where "axis" comes in play when
they put in axis, cylinder, etc in the prescription?
\_ "Ahhh I see", you're so funny!
\_ uh, never heard of a pun?
\_ yes, that's what I thought was funny. never
heard of humor and enjoying it?
\_ I'm wearing a astigmatism-correcting contacts right now, Accuvue
toric lenses. They're only effective up to a certain point
though.
\_ i used to wear astigmatism correcting contacts but they fit my
eyes really poorly. now i have normal contacts (i think .25 stronger)
and my eyes are much happier
\_ I'm curious: RGPs (rigid gas permeable) or soft contacts?

8/25 Do you wear glasses with anti-reflection coated lens? I just got
one for the first time ($50 extra). I'm wondering how long
before it starts to fade. I've seen glasses with partially faded
coatings and it looks pretty bad. Does cleaning it less often make
the coating last longer? Thanks.
\_ About one year. Only clean with a soft cloth and it will last longer.
\_ Usually 1-1.5 yr for me and I usually abuse it by cleaning with
tshirt etc. My current one has 2 year warranty so we'll see how that
goes.
\_ What happens after the coating wears out? Will the reslt be the
same or worse than using non-coated lens?
\_ Worse. I bought the coating once. Never again. It's not worth
it. --dim
\_ damn, I have been convinced that the anti-reflection coating
is worth it. Granted, I'll have another vision test a year
from now, and fortunately, the lenses will be changed at that
time anyways.
\_ Lasik, man. Save your money!
\_ I am not paying much for it. Eye insurance is paid by
the employeer.
\_ Then get them to lasik you.
\_ You only get one set of eyes.
\_ Which is why you should lasik them and stop shelling
out money for glasses and contacts which both damage
your vision and risk infection (for contacts).
\_ there's a much higher risk to lasik than coated lenses.
\_ nonsense. URLp. the risk in both cases is so small
as to be inconsequential.
\_ Go watch the Simpsons.
\_ Also, the coating is very sensitive to heat. Don't leave the
glasses (even in their case) in a hot car all day like I did. The
coating gets all crackly.

2/26 Is Lasik suppose to correct astigmatism?
\_ Lasik is one of the worst things you could do to your eyes.
investigate the Bates method, a method of training one's eye
muscles that addresses the cause of poor eyesight, not the
symptoms. Lasik is like giving youreslf permanent crutches.
very poor choice.
\_ Quack Quack Quack
\_ Some people are beyond "eye muscle exercise" quackery.
\_ Based on my own mother's experience (she now sees double) lasik
is still a technology in development and should be treated as
such - particularly if your existing prescription is strong and/or
you have more than a diopter of astigmatism. -- ulysses
\_ When is this done and who (surgeon) did it? Thanks.
\_ Based on my own wife's experience (she now sees perfectly) lasik
is the most incredible medical advancement since the knife. I'm
guessing yermom went to the cheapest she could find. My wife
went to the guy who trained all the others in the BA and paid
top dollar. Worth every penny and more.
\_ in theory, yes. but Lasik has other side effect. I
recommend you go to melvyl and read some of the articles
in the medical community.
experience in these areas is important. Ask around.
\_ ObGoogle
\_ Not a good application for google. Most of the hits will
be Lasik clinics. For my experience, the astigmatism
increased slightly in one eye. Other was made nill.
\_ My astigmatism was corrected after lasik. It was a custom job
though and cost more.
\_ Yes, if done right, it will correct astigmatism. For astigmatism
and high prescription, having a good surgeon who has successful
experience in these areas is important (and yes, it will cost
more). Ask around.

12/31 Anybody wear the glasses where there's no upper and lower rim?
It's hard to describe. The frame consists of just the middle nose
piece and the two ear pieces. There's no rim that wraps the actual
plastic lens. I've looked all over for them and can't find it.
If you know the manufacturers' name or the store that carries them
please let me know. Thanks.
\_ they are "rimless" see: link:www.silhouette.com
focal point opticians in berkeley has them, i think.
\_ thank you!
\_ A related question. Anybody here buy prescription frames + lenses
online? Is this even something I should be shopping online for???
\_ do you need a store to adjust the frames? and check the Rx
\_ I have rimless glasses and they are made by Kawasaki. My
previous pair was also rimless and they were made by Armani.
I got both from Mountain View Optometry (in Mtn. View, of
course).
\_ You might be better off buying the rims online, and then taking
the rims to somewhere local like Costco to get them perscribed.
\_ They break really easily, so don't think that you will be uber
morpheus matrix cool console cowboy for long.

12/12 Lasik works by cutting your cornea right? But doesn't that grow back?
\_ a flap is cut into it, and then pulled open. The incision takes
about 18 months to heal totally.
\_ whatever you do, don't go cheap on your lasik. find a doctor that
has already done a few hundred or better yet go to the stanfurd
eye clinic where the doctor is the same guy who taught everyone
else in the BA how to do it. it's your eyes.
\_ Don't do Lasik when you are young. Growing out of your built-in
prescription really sucks, and the long term downside is not
well understood yet.
\_ They've been doing it for years in Europe. Would you avoid
other modern and life altering++ surgical techniques as well?
\_ Some yes, some no. I wouldn't refuse an appendectomy
were it needed, but I'm not signing up for liposuction
any time soon. There are annecdotal reports of problems
5-10 years after the surgery resulting from the eye
changing shape as it grows. Preliminary stats show a
disproportionate number of males who had the treatment
before age 25 in the various problem groups. This
procedure it still in its first generation, so the long
term effects really aren't known yet.
\_ Some useful pages about LASIK and PRK:
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasikhttp://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1998/498_eye.html
\_ No lasik for me! I need to wear glasses to hide the enormity
of my nose!
\_ nose jobs are cheap and easily done right. dirt common.
\_ a paper bag is cheaper and non-prescription.
\_ You guys are missing the point. By wearing glasses,
I don't NEED a nose job, I can see, and I don't need
a paper bag. You two must be really, really stupid.
\_ Your language is verbose and inept.
\_ With lasik and a nosejob you won't look like a fat ugly
big nosed nerd. You *do* need a nose job if your big fat
ugly nose is 'reason' enough to wear glasses. Stop being
pathetic and join the human race.
\_ So he'd look like a slim, ugly nerd with a sculpted
nose? Think M. Jackson.

8/16 how do I know when I should replace my soft contacts? I have 4 week
That burning, stinging sensation_/
lenses, but I've been wearing them for way more than 4 weeks without
any apparent problems.
\_ clean them well and use the weekly enzyme thingies and you should
be able to use them a lot longer. They will eventually rip though.
\_ I can easily go 5 or 6 months w/ my 4 week disposables, just
with a daily rinsing. It depends on your biology, how you
build up protein on the lenses.
\_ well, that's my question. how do you know you can go 5-6
months? is it just to the point where they rip?
\_ if you're noticing less clarity or comfort, you should
probably get rid of them. the reduced oxygen flow can
cause permanent eye damage over the long run, according
to my eye doctor. of course, maybe he just wants me to
buy more contacts. the risks you want to take are up to
you though.
\_ so a 1-month lenses worn for 6 months allow less
oxygen flow than 1-year lenses worn for 6 months?
how does that work?
\_ I'm assuming you're talking about disposables.
Personally, I use two-week disposables that
I don't take off until I'm throwing them away,
so protein buildup and stuff is definitely a
factor. There is also only so much that you
can do to reduce buildup even if you do clean
them regularly. Anyway, you really should ask
a professional about things like this.

8/15 is Lasik helpful if you're 45 and you need reading glasses?
\_ The advice below is the best, of course. That said, my mother (57
yrs old, -10.0 diopters w/ -1.0 astygmatism) got her eyes done. Now
she see double. They say they can't fix it. They've tried three times
to fix it. Me? I'm going to wait for the tech to mature a bit more.
\_ Ask a doctor.
\_ I don't even have the guts to wear contacts. I worry that if I wear
contacts and drive, it may all of a sudden fall off or shift under
the eyelid and I'll lose control of the car.
\_ you're a nut. glasses are much more error prone. unless of
course you have a chaufer drive you around in an APC.
\_ They never suddenly fall off, at least not hard lenses. The
biggest problem is eyelashes getting underneath... hurts quite
a bit. I've had it happen while driving. Not pretty. I end up
popping it out and waiting til I stop the car to put it back in.
\_ but what about if the screws fall out of your glasses and your
lenses pop out of the frame? then what? don't worry about it.
\_ A plastic lense plopping in your lap isn't the same as a
shooting pain in your eye. Still, don't worry about it.

5/13 Eyeliner wearing types out there, do you have a strong brand
preference? Is department store eyeliner significantly better than
drug store eyeliner? Thanks in advance.
- Hasn't worn eyeliner since High School
\_ different brands may smear easier than others. i'd suggest
starting with the cheap stuff and then if you have a problem with
it staying put, move up to the better quality ones. (what will
work for you kinda depends on your skin type and eye geometry.
just experiment.) -tom
\_ Damn, what an obvious troll. tom stopped using eyeliner
ever since the surgery,
It runs too easily during any meg ryan film.
\_ Seem to be having success with the L'Oreal long wear liquid,
but I'm not too crazy about the applicator-- hard to get a
decent thin line. I'd still like to hear others' suggestions.
- Original poster
\_ Why do you think it is funny to sign someone elses name to
a post? Tom hasn't logged in all day.
\_ How common is it for males to wear eyeliners?
\_ Among heavy metal fans and sysadmins it's fairly common.
\_ You are making the generalization
that most sysadmins are linux
lusers and cosplayers. That is
not entirely true.
\_ WTF? First, are you saying heavy metal fans are fags?
And no, it's not common among sysadmins. You are crazy.
\_ No, are you saying wearing eye liner makes you a fag?
\_ Have you ever been to a KISS concert?
\_ If it's so fucking common among sysadmins, why the hell
can't I get any recommendations out of the motd?

3/14 Know an optometrist/opthomologist who is REALLY good at
fitting contact lenses? Especially difficult weird double
vision 6-degrees-of-prism (though I could do with 3 or 4)
people? (I don't even know if they make contact lenses
like this)
\_ Lasik will save you money in the long term
\_ Lasik is worse than pointless if your vision (and it's
degradation) is still changing a lot, as is often the case
until one is in their 30's. Suggesting that someone undergo
Lasik without any knowledge of the particulars is idiotic.
\_ LAISK does not work for double vision-people. problem is not
on the cornea.
\_ LAISK is not a well studied procedure. There are still
several problems that need to get sorted out. For example,
many people have problems with night vision and "flaring"
after the procedure. The age thing is also important, my
eye doctor recomends that you wait till age 35 (min) before
having it done. In the posters case, it wouldn't even
work, as others have mentioned.
\_ It's been done in Europe for 10+ years. How much more
studied do you want it to be? For people with bad enough
vision, it's worth the risk. Flaring? Who cares about
night vision flaring when before the procedure, vision was
just a blur at anything over 10 feet? I'll take some minor
flaring. If you wait until its perfect, you'll be dead of
old age. No medical procedure is perfect. Talk to your
doctor.
\_ And everything done in Europe is therefore good. We
should discuss this further over a European burger.
\_ use biofeedback to retrain your eyes to see clearly. works
for many. see: http://www.accommotrac.com
\_ Different doctors carry different brands of lenses, so it
may not be necessarily specific to one doctor.
\_ Dr. Russell Cotteral -- Kensington Optometry on Arlington Ave,
510-527-1714.

12/30 Neither of my parents wear glasses but my brother and I are both
extremely myopic. His this hereditary?
\_ Infertility is hereditary. If your parents never had children,
neither will you.
\_ Seen on bumper sticker: Out of a hundred thousand sperm, YOU'RE
the one that made it?!
\_ skips a generation? Are you sure they don't wear contacts?
\_ It's just the first step towards turning blind. And you thought
it was just an old wives' tale....

9/15 I need to get myself health insurance, but I don't know anything
about health insurance. What are the advantages/disadvantages/
differences of an HMO or a PPO? Also, what is an advisable
deductable to choose? What is important to watch out for in choosing
a policy? Also, are insurance policies typically like month-to-month
where you can cancel any time, or are they like apartment leases with
contacts that last, say 1 year, that you cannot cancel? Thanks!
\_Get yourself an agent. An agent is in a much better position
to discuss this with you than anyone on Soda. Look in phone book
or email me if you want info for one. Keep in mind that individual
health insurace is very expensive as compared to group. I'd
recommend that you get insurance through group if you can,
but it doesn't sound like you can. -williamc
\_ HMO's are really great until you get sick and need a PPO.
\_ If you're young and healthy, pick the CHEAPEST coverage you can get.
Your company (if you're going through your employer) should have
given you a comparison chart of what each programs would cover.
Rule of thumb: try not to pay over $10-15 for doctors visit (the
so-called 'copayment'); find the cheapest program that allows a
physical exam every other year, allows good drug prescription
coverage and if it comes with dental, something that would get
that teeth cleaned twice a year for free too. If you've always gone
to a specific HMO such as Kaiser, Humana, Alta Bates etc and com-
fortable with them, get HMO. (although they may not be the best).
If you don't have a specific physician (or don't care for one), pick
a PPO, then get a directory from the insurance company and pick a
a doctor in the network. When I was with Mutual of Omaha they let
met pay month-to-month but the coverage is for the whole year.
You may find something better. *shrug* - jthoms
MARK VI will be forthcoming sometime in january. if you don't like the
crashes volunteer to HELP THE PEOPLE SET IT UP. Other than that,
deal with your uptimes of less than a week.
\_ Any chance of leaving MK V up as a playing-around machine? -John
\_ hahahahahaha hhahahahahahah.

8/5 My company is in a low-medium security 3-story building and
there was a burglarly attempt on our office (they selected ours
in particular even though we make a point to not let anyone see
what's inside) last night -- they tried to get through the
drywall to try to push back the bolt, attempted to pick the lock
through the keyhole, and tried to crowbar the door frame out,
but were unsuccessful. We've replaced the deadbolt with a
standard Schlage lock, but I would really like to put something
techy here. Does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks.
\_ you know if you make too much of a point of not letting anyone
see what is inside you probably encourage getting robbed.
\_ Just get yourself a good Junkyard Dog. True, cleaning
up the blood of poor unfortunate burglars can be a pain,
but whatcha gonna do?
\_ Lights! Camera! Alarm system!
\_ It's not techy, but what's wrong with a security guard?
\_ Small company. Small building.
\_ Motion/IR sensor rigged to pager/cell phone dial-out. Auto-
activated remote wake-up for your PC at home with live streaming
video for the remote-controlled webcam in your office. A cool
looking old server in the middle of the room with lots of
blinkenlights (or a single red "eye") with a modem-to-speaker
and hidden mike setup that lets you talk to the people breaking
in while watching them and listening to them. Preferably with a
really deep voice filter ("this is god speaking.") Some sort of
remotely activated network of spray cans with some harmless but
misty contents, as well as a few red laser pointers scattered
strategically around the room that blink on when the alarm goes
off. Doorknob hooked up to AC current when alarm goes off with
a simple circuit. And a really good safe, preferably bolted to
the building frame (not the drywall.) Be creative, dude. Use
available technology. -John
\_ will you help us make our next movie?
\_ Schlage 6pin is sufficiently hard to pick. Do you have to use
lever handles? If not get a schlage A-series knob plymouth
style withe a B series deadbolt. If you really need it then
go with a D series. Staw away from leverl handles w/o a clutch
mechanism. No one will bother picking to get in for any serious
amount of time (they'll just use a drill). Make sure to reinforce
the jams and stuff. If you're really worried about picking, use
medeco cylinders. Schlage has attachments for using medeco cores.
- paolo
\_ Motion/IR sensor rigged to shotgun trigger.

8/1 I need a pair of optical google for swimming. What the good sources
for them online? How do I specify the different characteristics
like the degree of near-sightedness, astigamatism, etc? The entries
on a eye glass prescription specifies some spherical, cylindrical,
and axial specs.
\_ http://www.google.com

6/14 What do the 20's in "20/20 eyesight" mean? Thx.
\_ It means they're violating Starbucks' trademark, since they have
'Venti' copyrighted, or whatever. If any optometrist ever drinks
coffee, they're opening up themselves to one hell of a suit. -John
\_ Isn't that new technology neat? -- ilyas
\_ tell of us the stars....
\_ a standard vision test is given at a distance of 20 feet. if
your vision is "20/30", you can read at 30 feet what a normal
20/16, you can see at 16 feet what a normal eye sees at 20
eye would see at 20 feet. on the other end, if your vision is
\_ you've got that backwards. someone who sees 20/30 can
20/16, you can see at 20 feet what a normal eye sees at16
your vision is "20/30", you can read at 20 feet what a normal
eye would see at 30 feet. on the other end, if your vision is
20/16, you can see at 20 feet what a normal eye sees at 16
-danh
\_ someone who sees 20/30 can
see at 20 feet what the average person can see at 30 feet.
fighter pilots need to see 20/15 or 20/10, so they can see
at 20 feet what joe average can see at 10.
\_ I see. For near-sightedness, how does 20/xx translate to/from
the number of "degrees" that some people use to measure near-
sightedness?
\_ maybe you mean diopters. there's only approximate
relations between 20/x ratings and diopters.
see http://www.lpf.com/source/rk/20something.html
\_ I don't know. I was told that my short-sightedness is
simply "550", and everyone in my home country seems to
understand it.
\_ That's probably meant as -5.50
\_ To be slightly more precise, it's based on ability to discern
alpha letters at that distance. Your 20/20 may not be my 20/20.
\_ As opposed to... beta letters?
\_ As opposed to chinese, for example. the eye chart
uses block letters, easy to discern. There are "20/20"
Lasik patients who can't drive safely at night.
\_ As opposed to shapes, colors, 2d objects, 3d objects,
moving objects, unmoving objects, get the picture?
\_ You missed the point. No reason to pull the
non-existant term "alpha letters" out of yer ass.
\_ It wasn't my ass. Thanks for being
concerned for my ass though.

4/32 How much is LASIK surgery nowadays? $1500 - $4000 per eye?
\_ Look in the Guardian for an advertisement, $999 each eye.
\_ surgery in it's current form will probably be obsolete in 50
at night now because of this -- are glasses or contacts
annoying you so much that you're willing to take the chance?
years. gieven that most people posting to the motd are in their
20's, and given the inherent risk in all modern surgical operations,
unless it is life-threatening to postpone an operation until
medical technology comes of age, it is probably a good idea.
\_ Luddite. Medical technology is always improving. This is a
really stupid reason not to do it. Wait 50 years? Duh.
\_ which means they will be able to repair any unknown, long-term
complications in a few decades, eh?
\_ $2500 each at Stanford clinic. That's where they're *training* all
the other local quacks that are doing it for $50/eye. You want to
have your eyes done by a guy who did 12 operations or 6500 prior
to yours?
\_ I had it done 6 days ago. Contact me if you want real information.
I'd stay well clear of motd on medical subjects. -jor
btw, as low as 1175 total.
\_ $1175 for BOTH EYES? No kidding? Where???
\_ Idiot. At <DEAD>make-you-blind-for-life.com<DEAD>. Don't be
cheap with your eyes. -also had lasik
\_ my last motd note - It is both cheaper and better to have
this done in Canada where more advanced lasers are
in use. Of course, you need to fly there for 2 days. -jor
\_ Yeah, and then they install the secret microchip in your
eye so that when they come invading over the border, the
black helicopter pilot just has to press a button and
they make every single too-vain-to-wear-glasses yuppie
in America BLIND!!! Wake up before it's too late!!1!
\_ Slashdot had an article on how to hack that.
\_ Night vision problems!
\_ Not for everyone. If you vision is bad enough you couldn't see
anyway. Do your own research.
\_ one of my friend's father has this problem and can't drive
at night now -- are glasses or contacts annoying you so much
that you're willing to take the chance?
\_ I agree. Its kinda stupid to be taking such a big chance
on your eyes. Without your eyes most tasks are incredibly
difficult. Just stick with glasses. Buy Armani frames if
you think that glasses make you look dorky.
\_ Spoken by a nonathletic geek, no doubt.
\_ Someone told me Cadillacs have night vision stuff built
\_ I haven't? -- ilyas
into the windshield. I didn't follow up on that, but that
sounds kind of cool. -- ilyas
\_ mounting an infrared camera and display on your car
is the kind of nerdishness that's the reason why
you haven't gotten any, ilyas. tell us about the stars.
\_ Why do you think nerdishness is unattractive?
-- ilyas
\_ What, you mean besides the b.o., zits, and dime-
sized dandruff flakes that are usually
stereotyped alongside 'nerdishness'?
\_ sounds like a scam to turn a $200 windshield replacement
into a $1500 dealer-only job to me
\_ Actually, it uses an infrared camera and projects the
image onto the windshield, in a HUD-like manner
\_ that makes much more sense, but then the
real question remains: why?
\_ I think this feature is not only cool, but
useful. Lots of people drive with broken
lights, and lots of things that can appear on
the road at night don't have lights at all.
-- ilyas
\_ I'm acutally thinking about getting a
Cadillac for this feature. I feel kinda
bad since I have been a loyal Lincoln
driver for several years. I saw the NV
in use and it is extermely useful if
you drive in areas that are not well
lit at night (eg boulder creek)
\_ An eye for an eye.
\_ A twink for a twink.
\_ A penis for a... er...
\_ yermom
\_ A chicken in every pot, Windows on every box.
\_ Furthermore, there are no studies which show the long term
affects (probably because the procedure has only become popular
lately). Also, you should *not* have this procedure done if
you have a significant chance of your correction changing (i.e.
you are young).
\_ It's been done in Europe for years. Stop FUDding.
\_ Oh, so the doctors who've been doing it for years are
going to perform it on your eyes? And there are studies
which show what the long term effects are? Please, list
the sources and I'll apologize.
\_ Yup. Do your own research. It's your eyes. I
don't care if you wear glasses, contacts, go blind,
or swallow a shit stick and die. I sure as hell
don't require your apology to feel good about my
decisions, knowledge or anything else. Are you the
same fool that wanted the plot summary left in /tmp
so others could _prove_ something to you?
\_ The request on the motd was for useful
information. If you don't want to provide it then
shut up. I was balancing the over-optimistic
advice with cautionary advice. If you're pulling
your opinion out of your ass, then you're not
doing this guy a favor. If you have reason to
believe that I'm wrong, please show me wrong and
I and others might get useful information.
Otherwise, your opinion isn't worth the bits that
record it.
\_ Idiot. Go to Stanford's clinic. That's
where they're _teaching_ all these other
surgeons how to do the procedure. They've
done *thousands* of them with a 99.9%
success rate. Go fucking pick up the phone
and call them. There's no URL. This is
the real thing you sky-is-falling asshole.
\_ 10 years, in fact.
\_ That's not long term.
\_ Life has risk. Wear your glasses if the risk is
too great for you. I'm happy with my eyes. If
you're happy as you are, don't do it.
\_ Yeah, life has risk. I'll just run out in traffic
blindfolded since crossing the street is risky.
Thanks for your useful help.
\_ That's a non-reply. Back to rhetoric 10
to learn how to create a reply that isn't
strawman garbage.

8/12 When they say "Drink 8 glasses of cum everyday", exactly how
many ounces is that?
\_ 64 oz.
\_ 40 oz. of freedom is enough for me.
\_ Gallon is 128 fl. ounces
Half gallon is 64
Quart is 32
Pint is 16
Cup is 8
Soda can is 12
The glasses are each 8 fl. oz., so total is half a gallon.
\_ Wow... it's in binary...
\_ So are fractional inches...1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc.

8/4 Does anyone know where I can download a GIF of those eye doctor's
chart? I want to put one up for my wallpaper so I can check my
eye sight every hour or so. -poor vision
\_ http://www.berlinprod.com/berlin/glasses.html
\_ Come to think of it, that would make a pretty nifty wallpaper.
Although, I'm not sure why you can't make one yourself.
\_ Say what? You think your vision is dramatically changing by the
hour? Go see an eye doctor or something. Geeze....
\_ Wow. Aren't you the quick one. It's called a JOKE
\_ It isn't a joke. I really want an eye chart.

7/14 Any myopic sodans tried the laser vision correction procedure?
How was it and would you recommend it to others. Thanks.
\_ Another alternative that's much safer but also less effective
are hard lenses. According to some optometrists they can
actually help to correct your vision (the same way braces
and teeth retainers work) but don't count on too dramatic
improvements.
\_ As a 20/20, I can't speak from personal experience, but I've
heard that some patients end up with permanent cloudiness if
something goes wrong.
\_ My gf has read up on this and we decided it was still too risky for
the potential gain. The long term effects on your vision are of
course unknown and you'll definitely get a few totally uncorrectable
new problems like some night blindness and such. If this is a
cosmetic decision, don't do it. If you're so blind that you have
trouble seeing with glasses then you have little to lose anyway.
I'm not a doctor. Do your own research before making serious
medical decisions like fucking with your vision.
\_ Can anyone give a pointer for reliable information and studies?
One of my parents has very bad eye sight and is considering
this but all I can find is probably biased information by the
companies that promote this kind of stuff.
\_ Last time I went for more contacts at the eye doctor, I asked
him about this and he gave me a really good rundown of the
procedure and risks, overall he recommended it. Dont ask the
motd, ask a doctor..........................
\_ ...................................... !
\_ More importantly: ask your doctor if *they* would do it
to themself! If your doctor is hesitant to undergo a
procedure, that should tell you something. Always get a
second and third opinion. Laser surgery is a one way
trip. You won't get a chance to do it over five years
from now after the process has been dramatically improved.
\_ I know three people who have had this done, including one who
just had it done a week ago. They have all been extremely
pleased, at least in the short-term. I would have it done, too,
if my vision was worse than it is. --dim
\_ How is their vision in low light?
\_ be SURE you investigate the option where they cut a little hole
in your eye and stick a lens in it. This is supposed to be newer
and better than keratomy.
\_ Don't take medical advice from someone who
leaves a syllable out of the name of the
procedure he professes to know about. Try
looking at http://www.fda.gov to start. Look for
restrictions on using the procedure before
completion of puberty (often age 24 for human
males in the USA in recent studies)
\_ http://www.fda.gov//fdac/features/1998/498_eye.html
has some good info. -ax