Which reminds me of a verse that directly contradicts the one you posted, Blaz:

Quote

Ezekiel 1820 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

So, that says the kids don't pay for their parent's sins.

However, David's firstborn son with Bathsheba was killed by God because of the "adultery" of his parents:

Quote

2 Samuel 1213-14: Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”

You know, going off-topic for a second here, the Bible would probably make one of the best horror movies ever. Seriously, think about it: God is a childish psychopath with unlimited power, and anyone who dares to try and stop him (Satan, for example), is cast into Hell where they are tortured for all eternity. It's the recipe for an awesome "everyone dies" movie

Logged

My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

The bible merely says that it is created for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

It doesn't say when. However since God already knew everything that was ever going to happen when he createdeverything he would have prepared in advance don't you think.I mean he might be too busy to do it when he had to cast the devil into it.

Logged

The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

But, if God loved us soooo much why would he cast in to hell for ETERNITY. I have a 7 month old son and if he were to die today, according to the Bible, he would go to hell. What did he do that was so bad? Yes, he goes to our entertainment center and pulls out all of my PS3 games on a daily basis. Yes, he has started reaching into his diaper and playing with his poo. And yes, he throws up on me at least once a week, but none of those things deserve an eternity... much less one second in hell. If God is our father, than he is the worst father that has ever lived.

But, if God loved us soooo much why would he cast in to hell for ETERNITY. I have a 7 month old son and if he were to die today, according to the Bible, he would go to hell. ....................

Why do you say that?

If I may, the bible says that to be "saved" one must accept JC as one's savior. There is no exception for children, the mentally incapable, etc. The RCC had to come up with Limbo to salve their consciences.

Of course, TOT, you don't seem to believe in heaven or hell, just some rather odd idea you have for "eternal life".

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

But, if God loved us soooo much why would he cast in to hell for ETERNITY. I have a 7 month old son and if he were to die today, according to the Bible, he would go to hell. ....................

Why do you say that?

If I may, the bible says that to be "saved" one must accept JC as one's savior. There is no exception for children, the mentally incapable, etc. The RCC had to come up with Limbo to salve their consciences.

Of course, TOT, you don't seem to believe in heaven or hell, just some rather odd idea you have for "eternal life".

I guess i am a bit different because when I run across something that speaks of being saved, I immediately ask the "from what" question. Is the salvation that's spoken of in scripture a salvation from hell, from death, or from something else entirely? Or are there perhaps various different circumstances a different salvation method would be useful for?

If I may, the bible says that to be "saved" one must accept JC as one's savior. There is no exception for children, the mentally incapable, etc. The RCC had to come up with Limbo to salve their consciences.

Other types of Christians also claim that children and those who are mentally handicapped/ill get automatic admission into heaven upon death. Of course, they pulled this out of their asses.

I used to attend a megachurch and watch another megachurch broadcast their sermons, and they both claim the automatic admission thing because "God is fair." Yet we are all supposed to be "born in sin".

I want to know, did God take David and Bathsheba's baby that he personally killed straight to heaven? I have heard Christians say that when kids die a horrible death (baby microwaved by drug addict parents) "at least they're in heaven now." Really??? Then why would God put them here to begin with? Just so they could die an excruciatingly painful death?

Other types of Christians also claim that children and those who are mentally handicapped/ill get automatic admission into heaven upon death. Of course, they pulled this out of their asses.

I used to attend a megachurch and watch another megachurch broadcast their sermons, and they both claim the automatic admission thing because "God is fair." Yet we are all supposed to be "born in sin".

I want to know, did God take David and Bathsheba's baby that he personally killed straight to heaven? I have heard Christians say that when kids die a horrible death (baby microwaved by drug addict parents) "at least they're in heaven now." Really??? Then why would God put them here to begin with? Just so they could die an excruciatingly painful death?

And yet others take the stance that when one dies, whether the desceased is an infact, teen, or adult, that they are simply died and thus are not taken anywhere, no Heaven, no hell, and no place of limbo in between.

The concept of original sin seems very oxymoronic. If sin involves an act of disobedience, then how can someone that hasn't committed any act be guilty of it?

I think god was very loving when he smote Uzzah for helping. Now that's a father's love.Imagine telling your son that you'll kill him if he touches your new sports car and you find he accidentally touched it to keep it from being smashed. Do you still bring out the blade and cut his throat?

I used to attend a megachurch and watch another megachurch broadcast their sermons, and they both claim the automatic admission thing because "God is fair." Yet we are all supposed to be "born in sin".

I want to know, did God take David and Bathsheba's baby that he personally killed straight to heaven? I have heard Christians say that when kids die a horrible death (baby microwaved by drug addict parents) "at least they're in heaven now." Really??? Then why would God put them here to begin with? Just so they could die an excruciatingly painful death?

It's absolutely amazing what these seminary graduates preach. They babble on about how god is perfect, god is love, god is fair, god is patient, BLAH! It's enough to make an agnostic sick

The church i was last part of is the polar opposite of your Megachurch experience, Curiousgirl. There's probably some 200 members in attendance, and there's a quaint little potluck after each service. The pastor there previously preached at a much larger church, but for all his willful ignorance, i actually like the guy. He's pretty upfront and honest in most of his messages, doesn't skim over the hard stuff. That's more then i can say for most bible bashers.

Anyways, about three months ago he started a series on genesis. I remember clearly the last church service i went to, he was teaching on Genisis 29-30. In these chapters Jacob, one of the esteemed patriarchs, is caught in a sadistic love triangle between his two wives, Leah and Rachel. God is busy opening and closing wombs all throughout this soap opera. Finally, chapter 30 ends with Jacob applying the use of magic to make a flock of lambs conceive "streaked, speckled, and spotted" offspring. As the pastor stood on his pulpit, vainly trying to make sense of all this madness, i decided enough was enough. Anyone trying to present this scattered anthology of nonsense as a written revelation from a "loving" god is beyond absurd.

And that's when is stopped attending my local church

« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 05:51:27 PM by The Wannabe »

Logged

"I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Other types of Christians also claim that children and those who are mentally handicapped/ill get automatic admission into heaven upon death. Of course, they pulled this out of their asses.

I have always been confused about that. I have always learn that we wait until GoDs return or is it that we go strait to heaven. Not that it matters now but i was just wondering.

1 Thessalonian 4:13-18 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 07:03:08 PM by violatedsmurf80 »

Logged

When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

I have always been confused about that. I have always learn what 1 Thessalonian 4:13-18 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The automatic admission to heaven that the megachurch pastors preached was based on this verse:

Quote

2 Corinthians 58 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (NKJV)

They would interpret that (with their magic decoder rings) as going straight to heaven after they die (just with their souls, but their bodies will rise upon Christ's return as stated in 1 Thessalonians).

The automatic admission to heaven that the megachurch pastors preached was based on this verse:

Quote

2 Corinthians 58 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (NKJV)

They would interpret that (with their magic decoder rings) as going straight to heaven after they die (just with their souls, but their bodies will rise upon Christ's return as stated in 1 Thessalonians).

That verse is creepy. Sounds like they have a death wish.

Not only is it creepy, but the verse is incoherent with their own world view.

Quote

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."Hebrews 13:5

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28: 20

Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. Jeremiah 23: 23-24

The christian god is omnipresent, he's everywhere, yet christians still have this idea of a heaven or kingdom where god physically/sprititually resides. The idea of god sitting on his throne up in heaven is inconsistent with his supposed omnipresent nature.

EDIT: In other words, god's presence is felt in hell as much as it is in heaven. There's no getting around it.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 07:49:59 PM by The Wannabe »

Logged

"I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance." -Friedrich Nietzsche

I guess i am a bit different because when I run across something that speaks of being saved, I immediately ask the "from what" question. Is the salvation that's spoken of in scripture a salvation from hell, from death, or from something else entirely? Or are there perhaps various different circumstances a different salvation method would be useful for?

And that's a great question, TOT. We have John 3 that says that *every* one is “condemned”.

Quote

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Condemned to what? Death? Everyone dies, but what else is there to threaten with? It seems that ‘hell’ becomes more and more important as the religion evolves. Again, how do we know what your god “really” means? We see that JC says little about other ways, assuming that JC was real at all. We do get that bit in Matthew about how works are all that one needs, “in that you do for the least of these” but it seems that the main message from JC is that belief in him is all that matters, through Luke and John. We also get from JC that only those that he/god allows to believe can believe. Is this just or fair, TOT? Or is this back to might makes right? We see later from Paul and James that it is indeed just God’s whim that allows people to be saved, and from James that works are important. We even have from Paul that the *only* way for women to be saved is through childbirth. Must suck to be infertile, damned by your own body. Again, we see a book that is full of contradictions. If this god is some ultimate truth, funny how this changes constantly and always behind how human society has changed. It never leads but only follows, decideing that God *must* have meant the new more humane version of society.

and why does God so fail in the supposed description of "love" in his own holy book?

Quote

The concept of original sin seems very oxymoronic. If sin involves an act of disobedience, then how can someone that hasn't committed any act be guilty of it?

funny how your divinely inspired book insists that this is true. Over and over again.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

I was a Christian for 22 years... very much a student of the Bible. velkyn hit the nail on the head when she said, "There is no exception for children, the mentally incapable, etc." If anyone can find one, I would love to see it.

Countless times in the Bible we see many contradictions on God's love... perhaps he's bi-polar?

The concept of original sin seems very oxymoronic. If sin involves an act of disobedience, then how can someone that hasn't committed any act be guilty of it?

Because Eve and Adam's sin was so monstrous, so enormous, so sinful, that it damaged the entire universe, including all people, for all time. They brought sin into the world. Sin is the most potent substance in (and outside) the universe. Since the fall, everything is permeated with sin. That is why we all have original sin. It is the leftover residue of Even and Adam's treachery.

And of course, yhwh was an innocent bystander in the whole sorted affair.

I was a Christian for 22 years... very much a student of the Bible. velkyn hit the nail on the head when she said, "There is no exception for children, the mentally incapable, etc." If anyone can find one, I would love to see it.

Countless times in the Bible we see many contradictions on God's love... perhaps he's bi-polar?

nah. My husband is bipolar and he isn't anything like this arrogant, whiny, impotent, psychotic character. God is a great example of a cosmic brat.

Logged

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

And that's a great question, TOT. We have John 3 that says that *every* one is “condemned”. Condemned to what? Death? Everyone dies, but what else is there to threaten with?

That's the trillion dollar question. From the context I would make the argument that the answer is in fact death as it presents no other alternative and uses terms like perish and then contrasts that term with age lasting life. As you stated, we all are going to die, so if death is the "condemnation" then the quote of nonbelievers being "condemned already" is apropro.Hey, that's my opinion on the matter and that conclusion seems to make the most sense because it doesn't appear that any alternative conclusion is presented by the text, but I could be wrong with and equiped with a faulty decoder ring .

It seems that ‘hell’ becomes more and more important as the religion evolves. Again, how do we know what your god “really” means? We see that JC says little about other ways, assuming that JC was real at all. We do get that bit in Matthew about how works are all that one needs, “in that you do for the least of these” but it seems that the main message from JC is that belief in him is all that matters, through Luke and John. We also get from JC that only those that he/god allows to believe can believe. Is this just or fair, TOT? Or is this back to might makes right? We see later from Paul and James that it is indeed just God’s whim that allows people to be saved, and from James that works are important. We even have from Paul that the *only* way for women to be saved is through childbirth. Must suck to be infertile, damned by your own body. Again, we see a book that is full of contradictions. If this god is some ultimate truth, funny how this changes constantly and always behind how human society has changed. It never leads but only follows, decideing that God *must* have meant the new more humane version of society.

I would agree that hell has become more of a focus and perhaps has even been redefined as the religions, both Judaism, Christianity, and even Islam have evolved. What I have found interesting in my recent studies of the gospels is that Jesus seems to speak about eternal (age lasting) life and having a place in the Kingdom as entirely different things. For instance in John 3 Jesus is quoted as having told Nico that one must be born again of water and of the spirit in order to have a place in the Kingdom, that was supposed to have come with power in the lifetime of those to whom Jesus spoke (Luke 9:26-27). However, when Jesus was asked about what was needed for inheriting life in the age, his response with quite different. According to Luke 10:26-28, in order to be gifted with life one must 'love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, life, strength, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' [Apparently this love for YHWH was centered around accepting and believing in the one He sent. (John 6 delves into this idea.)]