Was he just crazy with paranoia and revenge by the end of Godfather Part II? Or did he have some kind of justification in mind like in the killing of Carlo and Tessio (in that they would always be a potential threat to the Family, so they had to be rubbed out).

Falafel Waffle

08-17-2001, 09:11 AM

ummm... excuse me... but Fredo ratted them outt! That's why the big kiss and the line, "I knew it was you, Fredo."

And Fredo knew he was gonna catch a severe case of bullet in the head when he went out on the boat. :)

pldennison

08-17-2001, 09:57 AM

Yeah, what Mr. Waffle said. Fredo was warned in Godfather I, too, in the meeting between Michael and Moe Greene: "Don't ever side with anyone against the family again."

Guy Propski

08-17-2001, 10:00 AM

Simply because he could no longer trust him. That's the dominant plot line in the Godfather II; once you violate Michael's trust, your days are numbered. Fredo was also a major screwup and admittedly jealous of Michael's power, so Michael had to be thinking that it would only be a matter of time until Fredo pulled some other stunt like that.

Coppolla wanted to have Michael kill Fredo right away, but Mario Puzo (the author) didn't agree. Their compromise was that Michael would wait until their mother had died.

Remember, Michael did something similar in the first film. He had his brother-in-law killed for betraying Sonny, but he waited until after Vito's death.

buddy1

08-17-2001, 10:03 AM

Basically, Fredo was a harmless idiot, after Michael had wiped out Moe green, Hyman Roth, and the rest of his enemies. So why the bullet in the head (apres the HAIL MARY prayer)? My guess is that by this time, Michael has lost whatever humanity he once had-he has become a cold, unfeeling automaton-everything that his late father wished he HAD'NT! AT LEAST HE HAD THE DECENCY NOT TO kill Fredo while the mother was around-although she never opened her mouth about such matters of business. I just remember that cold hard stare that Michael gave the hit man, while embracing the hapless Fredo-it REALLY gave me the creeps! I think Michael should have set Fredo up in a candy store instead, although he probably knew too much to be left alive-and Michael certainly didn't want him talking to a senate investigative committe!

astorian

08-17-2001, 10:18 AM

Michael learned in the first movie that his father's enemies were quick to take advantage of any perceived weakness on Don Vito's part. Thus, he was detrmined NEVER to show any sign of weakness. By killing his own brother, Michael sent a loud, clear message to all would-be traitors: if I'd do this to my own brother, imagine what I'd do to YOU.

Recall what Kevin Spacey said of the omnipotent criminal Keyzer Soze in "The Usual Suspects:" Soze understood that the secret to power was being feared, and the secret to being feared was in being willing to do what nobody else would do- includlling your own family.ing ki

NutWrench

08-17-2001, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by buddy1
. . . AT LEAST HE HAD THE DECENCY NOT TO kill Fredo while the mother was around-although she never opened her mouth about such matters of business. I just remember that cold hard stare that Michael gave the hit man, while embracing the hapless Fredo-it REALLY gave me the creeps! . . .

I'm glad other people picked up on that. That was what convinced me that Michael had really lost whatever humanity he might have started out with. Michael was planning his brothers death even while he was embracing Fredo during an emotional moment. A great, chilling scene.

--Nut
A good man has few enemies. A ruthless man has none.

kingpengvin

08-17-2001, 10:36 AM

Michael just couldn't handle any threat to his hold over the family or anyone questioning his decisions. Michael was paranoid that he was losing control so that he precieved any disention as a direct threat.

Fredo was an Idiot and a risk to the Family, but he was just niave and thought he could help himself without hurting the family. Remember Fredo didn't know Roth was going to attack the Compound.
In reality Fredo was no longer a threat after that as he broke away from Roth.

Guy Propski

08-17-2001, 11:20 AM

As I pointed out earlier, Michael was already a cold-blooded SOB in the first movie. He plotted to have his brother-in-law killed even as he agreed to stand as his nephew's godparent.

As Tessio said, "It was only business."

I don't know that you could say that Fredo wasn't a threat after the death of Roth. As long as he lived, Fredo would be an opportunity for one of Michael's enemies to exploit, because Fredo always made bad choices.

Opengrave

08-17-2001, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Falafel Waffle
And Fredo knew he was gonna catch a severe case of bullet in the head when he went out on the boat. I don't think he knew but I DO think the sister knew, that is why she didn't want the kid to go out in the boat. I agree that Fredo was a weak idiot who made bad choices and was a risk to the family.

bafaa

08-17-2001, 11:43 AM

I'm SMAHT!

...poor Fredo

kingpengvin

08-17-2001, 11:48 AM

Opengrave:
I don't think he knew but I DO think the sister knew, that is why she didn't want the kid to go out in the boat. I agree that Fredo was a weak idiot who made bad choices and was a risk to the family.
No she didn't know. Michael's son was taken away by one of Miceal's men under the pretence that he had to go out. Connie had no clue, she tried to have Fredo forgiven by Michael.

Guy Propski:
I don't know that you could say that Fredo wasn't a threat after the death of Roth. As long as he lived, Fredo would be an opportunity for one of Michael's enemies to exploit, because Fredo always made bad choices.

By that point Fredo was on his last legs. While he was in exile he was as Connie described weak and helpless. Under supervision he would be no threat because all power he had before was stripped. Don't forget when he made the deal with Roth he was working a few Casinos for the family and had oppurtunities to make contacts. Without any responsibilities he wouldn't have outside contact, therfore no threat.

Guy Propski

08-17-2001, 11:55 AM

kingpengvin--in that case, then, I view Fredo's death as a mercy killing. Who'd want to live that way?

Guinastasia

08-17-2001, 11:56 AM

But um, didn't his brother-in-law beat his sister, so Sonny went out and beat the guy up, and they killed Sonny?

Also, I was watching the beginning of the first one yesterday-with the wedding part, and all that. I know it's in the book-which I read-it just depressed me that Michael, who seemed like the good guy of the family at first-became the SOB. And I'm sorry, but what's her name-Kay was an idiot.

Some guy told me a story about his father being in the Mafia, I think I'd split.

pldennison

08-17-2001, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Guinastasia
But um, didn't his brother-in-law beat his sister, so Sonny went out and beat the guy up, and they killed Sonny?

Two different incidents. Sonny goes over to Connie's place and finds her with a black eye and fat lip, then goes and finds Carlo and beats him silly.

The next time, Connie answers the phone call from Carlo's girlfriend, gets in fight with Carlo, and he beats her unmercifully. She calls the house and gets her mother, who gives the phone to Sonny. Sonny leaves, presumably to kill Carlo this time, but Carlo has already sold Sonny out to the Tattaglia family, and they gun him down.

That's why, when Michael visits Carlo after the christening of Connie's son, and has wiped out Tattaglia, Barzini, Moe Greene and everyone else, he tells Carlo, "You have to answer for Santino."

kingpengvin

08-17-2001, 12:24 PM

Still pretty frickin evil to kill a guy after the christening of his Kid. At least he gave Fredo a little while before offing him (a week or so?)

But I have a question in number 3 (uggh) Was Michael repentent that he killed his brother or that his killed his mother and father's child?

hansel

08-17-2001, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by kingpengvin

But I have a question in number 3 (uggh) Was Michael repentent that he killed his brother or that his killed his mother and father's child?

If you mean during his confession to the Cardinal, I'd say so. I thought the point of that scene was Michael releasing all of the humanity he'd pent up over the years. He always wanted to let it out, to be legit, to get out of the business, but protecting the family came first, and he felt that protecting the family offered him no other choices than the brutality he'd caused so far.

kingpengvin

08-17-2001, 01:28 PM

Still pretty frickin evil to kill a guy after the christening of his Kid. At least he gave Fredo a little while before offing him (a week or so?)

But I have a question in number 3 (uggh) Was Michael repentent that he killed his brother or that his killed his mother and father's child?

MovieMogul

08-17-2001, 01:42 PM

king pengvin says: No she didn't know. Michael's son was taken away by one of Miceal's men under the pretence that he had to go out. Connie had no clue, she tried to have Fredo forgiven by Michael.
This is reinforced in Part III when we hear Connie talk about the tragic circumstances of Fredo's boating accident. She never found out.
Guinastasia says: Also, I was watching the beginning of the first one yesterday-with the wedding part, and all that. I know it's in the book-which I read-it just depressed me that Michael, who seemed like the good guy of the family at first-became the SOB. And I'm sorry, but what's her name-Kay was an idiot.
Some guy told me a story about his father being in the Mafia, I think I'd split.
I think this incident is important in pointing out that Michael isn't really much of a nice guy, even in the beginning. I think he obviously relished telling Kay the "brains or signature on the contract" story, and his efforts to distance himself from his father's "way" is hypocritical. I don't think he holds any moral judgement against what his family does--he may be out of the business loop, but it's still in his blood, something he's proud of even with his clean-cut military hero demeanor.

warmgun

08-17-2001, 01:43 PM

Guinastasia, the secret to any good screenplay is conflict. If Mike going bad bothered you, the writers did their job.

BobT

08-17-2001, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Guinastasia
But um, didn't his brother-in-law beat his sister, so Sonny went out and beat the guy up, and they killed Sonny?

Also, I was watching the beginning of the first one yesterday-with the wedding part, and all that. I know it's in the book-which I read-it just depressed me that Michael, who seemed like the good guy of the family at first-became the SOB. And I'm sorry, but what's her name-Kay was an idiot.

Some guy told me a story about his father being in the Mafia, I think I'd split.

But that's not me Kay, that's my family.

Guy Propski

08-17-2001, 02:32 PM

I was just reading an on-line transcript of GF2, and there's a line said by Michael that pretty much sums up his behaviour with Fredo, Paulie, et al:

"I don't want to kill everybody, Tom; just my enemies."

furnishesq

08-17-2001, 02:39 PM

I think that Michael killing Fredo was to show us "how out of control" Michael and his situation had become. While he had become his father in title, he was NOT his father. His father, while Godfather, was able to handle the family business while at the same time being able to have a close tight nit family.

Michael could not do this. At the end of Part II (Part III does not exist in my mind) we see that Michael has lost the love of his wife, his sister is less than loving, and he kills his older brother. He has even fired Tom Higgins whom his father has adopted as one of his own family.

The final scene of Part II shows Michael sitting outside -- alone. I do not think this was by accident. Micheal could not be tough and ruthless without giving up love and compassion -- which is what made his father a great man.

BobT

08-17-2001, 02:45 PM

It's Tom Hagen. He's German-Irish as he tells Waltz in Part I.

Obviously a lot of people on the SMDB must be watching AMC these past two weeks as the Godfather films have been shown a lot.

Morbo

08-17-2001, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by NutWrench
Originally posted by buddy1
. . . AT LEAST HE HAD THE DECENCY NOT TO kill Fredo while the mother was around-although she never opened her mouth about such matters of business. I just remember that cold hard stare that Michael gave the hit man, while embracing the hapless Fredo-it REALLY gave me the creeps! . . .

I'm glad other people picked up on that. That was what convinced me that Michael had really lost whatever humanity he might have started out with. Michael was planning his brothers death even while he was embracing Fredo during an emotional moment. A great, chilling scene.

--Nut
A good man has few enemies. A ruthless man has none.

Definitely the best scene in the movie. Hell, it even gave Al Neri the creeps - he could hardly believe it and had to avert his eyes.

As for the OP, I always naturally assumed he killed Fredo simply b/c he took sides against the family again, which he was warned not to do.

Oblong

08-17-2001, 02:46 PM

I have a different take.

I've always thought that Michael was sincere when he told Tom to tell Fredo "Tell him everything's alright... that I know he didn't know they would try to kill me".

Also, when leaving Cuba he yells "your still my brother"

I didn't think Michael decided to kill Fredo until Fredo lashed out at him in the boathouse. That's when he realized he was beyond weak and stupid, he was jealous.

I always thought the stare he gave Neri at the funeral was one of regret to Neri, that Neri felt Michael was weak for embracing him. Neri kind of looks away. I dont think Neri would be spooked by Michael's sudden decision to kill Fredo. He already expected it. Remember when he tells him "I don't want anything to happen to him while my mother's alive".

But then again, if my theory were true, nothing happened between that scene and Fredo's death to change his mind, so maybe I am wrong. Maybe the combination of pentangelli, Roth, and Fredo boiled over and he decided to do it.

Guy Propski

08-17-2001, 02:59 PM

furnishesq, I have to point out a few errors in your comments.

--Michael did not fire Tom Hagen at the end of GF2. He did tell him that Tom had to commit to being with him, because Michael had found out that Tom had been offered a new job. Tom reaffirmed his committment to Michael, and proved it by a carrying the suggestion to Frankie Five Angles that he commit suicide.

--Connie rebelled against Michael at the beginning of the film, but after their mother's death, she begged to come back and take care of Michael. She admitted that she had behaived badly.

--Michael was sitting inside, not outside. But you're right, he was alone, both in reality and symbolically. Then again, he'd been an outsider all along. The flashback to 1941 (just before the end) showed that very clearly.

furnishesq

08-17-2001, 03:16 PM

Guy Propski,

While I do agree with some of your comments. . .

Tom was relieved of his duties as "head counsel" to the family and was reduced to the status of "special advisor" to the family. I believe that this was one way of Michael distancing himself from all who loved him. That really hurt Tom and was one of the reason's Tom went looking for other work -- the promise Tom made to Mike at the end was I believe made more out of fear than loyalty -- you could see that the tone Tom's promise was half-assed. Tom would have done anything for Mike's father.

Connie admitted she behaved badly -- however I believe (and this is just my theory) she did this because she had not other choice -- it was not out of sisterly love. She just lost her mother -- the only "insurance" she had that Michael would not cut her off. Thus, when Mom died she needed to kiss some ass so that she wouldn't be kicked out. Good ole' Dad didn't have this problem -- his family really loved him. Mike doesn't have that luxury.

I'll give you that he was sitting "inside"

My point is -- Mike somewhere along the line snapped -- losing all who loved him and making him capable of offing his brother.

Oblong

08-17-2001, 03:34 PM

I think it was poor writing in III when Connie refers to Fredo drowning. How naive could she be. She was acting in such a way in that movie that she had to know what went on. "Maybe they should fear you!"

Maybe it was just her trying to psyche herself to the point where she wnated to believe he drowned.

buddy1

08-17-2001, 04:20 PM

..as a long-time student of the mafia/mob/organized crime history, I was always fascinated about what held these organizations together. It must be pretty scary to reach the upper levels of the mob-you never know if a subordinate is plotting against you, or the "godfather' of the family might be decidine to have YOU whacked! I think Michael got too smart for his own good..he should have moved to las Vegas, bought the hotels, and settled down to a peaceful existance. but no. he has to keep making deals with hyman Roth ("we are bigger than US Steel"), and keeps nominal control of the mob back in NYC. His subordinates are confused, and thus the family falls apart. Something along the same lines hapened to paul Castellano (late don of NYC). He forgot to watch everyone, and an ambitious young hood named John Gotti rose up and whacked him! I wonder what life is like in the successors to the mafia-the mexican, russian, chinese gangs, etc.

Morbo

08-17-2001, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Oblong

I always thought the stare he gave Neri at the funeral was one of regret to Neri, that Neri felt Michael was weak for embracing him. Neri kind of looks away. I dont think Neri would be spooked by Michael's sudden decision to kill Fredo. He already expected it. Remember when he tells him "I don't want anything to happen to him while my mother's alive".

Really? That's not what I thought at all - I always believed it was a private "I'm going to need you to kill him later" stare between Michael and Neri, and Neri got the message, and seemed to look away b/c he couldn't believe Michael was already planning it not even hours after the mother's funeral.

Does anybody else wanna give their take on this? Since it's one of my favorite moments from the series, I'd like to make sure I understood it correctly...

Oblong

08-17-2001, 04:29 PM

You probably have the right take. I always fail to 'get it' when it comes to things like this.

What made me think that is the way Neri looks away. I'll look at it again when I get home.

Guy Propski

08-17-2001, 04:31 PM

Here's the final Michael/Tom scene dialogue from GF2:

TOM: Why did you ask me if something was wrong when I came in?

MICHAEL: I thought you were goin' to tell me that -- you were going to move your family to Vegas -- and that you'd been offered the vice-presidency of the house and hotels there I thought you were goin' to tell me that.

TOM: I turned them down -- do I have to tell you about ever offer I turn down?

MICHAEL: let's do business.

TOM: Alright -- just consider this Mike -- that's all just consider it. Now ROTH and the Rosato's are on the run -- are they worth it? And are they strong -- is it worth it -- I mean you've won -- do you have to wipe everyone out?

MICHAEL: I don't fell I have to wipe everyone out -- just my enemies -- that's all. You gonna come along with me in these things I have to do -- or what. Because if not you can take your wife, your family, and your mistress -- and move 'em all to Las Vegas.

TOM: Why do you hurt me MICHAEL -- I've always been loyal to you -- I mean what is this.

MICHAEL: So -- you're staying?

TOM: Yes, I'm staying. Now what is it that you want me to do?

There's nothing in there about Tom being demoted. Michael just forces him to clearly state his (Tom's) position. Also, Tom says they came looking for him, not that he looked for a job. As a man in his position, I'm sure Tom received lots of job offers.

Now here's Connie's final speech to Michael in GF2:

CONNIE: MICHAEL please I want to talk to you. MICHAEL I hated you -- for so many years. I think I did things to myself -- to hurt myself -- so you'd know -- .that I could hurt you. You're just being strong for all of us the way Papa was. Now I forgive you -- can't you forgive FREDO -- he's so sweet and helpless without you. You need me MICHAEL -- I want to take care of you now.

Okay, so she was sucking up. But if you wait until GF3, though, she's completely on Michael's side, even going to far as to help him kill one of Michael's enemies.

I think one thing needs to be said--it's always going to be hard to pin down everyone's motivation in the Godfather Saga because of all the double-dealing and plotting. I'm still a bit confused about some of Hyman Roth's plans!

AMM9132

08-17-2001, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by astorian
Michael learned in the first movie that his father's enemies were quick to take advantage of any perceived weakness on Don Vito's part. Thus, he was detrmined NEVER to show any sign of weakness. By killing his own brother, Michael sent a loud, clear message to all would-be traitors: if I'd do this to my own brother, imagine what I'd do to YOU.

astorian, I agree 100%

Papermache Prince

08-17-2001, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by pldennison
Originally posted by Guinastasia
But um, didn't his brother-in-law beat his sister, so Sonny went out and beat the guy up, and they killed Sonny?

Two different incidents. Sonny goes over to Connie's place and finds her with a black eye and fat lip, then goes and finds Carlo and beats him silly.

The next time, Connie answers the phone call from Carlo's girlfriend, gets in fight with Carlo, and he beats her unmercifully. She calls the house and gets her mother, who gives the phone to Sonny. Sonny leaves, presumably to kill Carlo this time, but Carlo has already sold Sonny out to the Tattaglia family, and they gun him down.

That's why, when Michael visits Carlo after the christening of Connie's son, and has wiped out Tattaglia, Barzini, Moe Greene and everyone else, he tells Carlo, "You have to answer for Santino."

It's a small point, and we've moved to other matters but . . .
Sonny's murder was carefully planned - surely you can't hijack a toll road on the spur of the moment without a high risk of discovery. The call from Carlo's "girlfriend" is too conveniently timed. After all, there's no requirement that Carlo's "real" girlfriend has to be the one who calls. Any woman could have provided the female voice, which provokes the argument, and so on. In fact, if Carlo is momentarily monogamous, he'd be even angrier at the accusation from Connie.

Guinastasia

08-17-2001, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by warmgun
Guinastasia, the secret to any good screenplay is conflict. If Mike going bad bothered you, the writers did their job.

Well of course! I still just want to slap the hell out of Kay, after all, part of fighting ignorance means that Mafia Men Do Not Good Husbands Make.

;)

Guinastasia

08-17-2001, 07:04 PM

I only saw the first movie, and I read the book. The part that kinda got to me was the killing of Michael's first wife-what was her name-Appolonia? I always thought it was kinda funny, he goes off, marries this girl in Italy, just this innocent peasant girl, and she gets killed...hmmm...was there a point to this part?

pldennison

08-17-2001, 07:08 PM

Papermache Prince, true 'nuff. I thought that myself after I posted it.

Originally posted by Guinastasia
I only saw the first movie, and I read the book. The part that kinda got to me was the killing of Michael's first wife-what was her name-Appolonia? I always thought it was kinda funny, he goes off, marries this girl in Italy, just this innocent peasant girl, and she gets killed...hmmm...was there a point to this part?

I haven't read the book, but as far as the movie goes, it showed the extent to which the Corleone enemies were willing to go. If Michael had not come down the stairs and spotted Fabrizio, he would have gotten in the car and been killed himself. He already knew that it was no longer safe in Sicily; this was another demonstration that he could not allow any enemies, real or perceived, to get the upper hand.

Milossarian

08-17-2001, 07:11 PM

OK, this question has been thoroughly answered.

I'd just like to point out that my user-name in a few different Internet places that require them is Fishing_With_Fredo.

:D

HelloKitty

08-17-2001, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Guinastasia
I only saw the first movie, and I read the book. The part that kinda got to me was the killing of Michael's first wife-what was her name-Appolonia? I always thought it was kinda funny, he goes off, marries this girl in Italy, just this innocent peasant girl, and she gets killed...hmmm...was there a point to this part?

I have always felt that the part where his wife is killed was where Michael's heart really turns cold. He loved her more than he ever could love Kay(if he even loved her at all), and because of his actions (killing the police chief, etc) she was dead.

When he met Appolonia, I think he envisioned the kind of marriage and family that Vito had, and it was all gone in seconds. It seems to me that when he was in Sicily he sort of fooled himself into a false sense of security and he was jolted back to reality by her death (and his near death). Notice how he never talked about it with anyone back in the states?

To me, this is a major turning point in the series.

hansel

08-17-2001, 09:31 PM

No one has mentioned the fact that Michael tells Tom later in GFII that the reason he pushed Tom out of the family business is so he could always trust Tom, so he would always have someone who could protect his family if he needed them to.

BobT

08-18-2001, 03:25 AM

In "The Godfather Saga" where parts I and II are shown in chronological order, a scene, deleted from Part II, shows Michael ordering the murder of Fabrizio who is running a pizzeria in the U.S. You then get to see Fabrizio's car blow up.

So Michael obviously had a long memory about what happened in Sicily to Appolonia.

Stoid

08-18-2001, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by BobT
It's Tom Hagen. He's German-Irish as he tells Waltz in Part I.

It's Woltz .

Stoid

08-18-2001, 12:36 PM

I feel like a clear explanation has been missed here.

My understanding was always that Fredo had set Micheal up for the hit early in the film, without actually knowing they were going to try and kill him. I don't know what else he thought they were going to do, but that isn't detailed.

Somewhere later in the movie, there is a moment, I think it's in Cuba, where Fredo says something while they are watching the sex show that reveals that he had been there before, maybe with Moe Green...something, I can't remember the details of what it was, but it essentially reveals a lie to Micheal. We get a shot of the light dawning in Micheal's face, and that is what prompts him to say "I knew it was you, Fredo". Prior to that moment, he did NOT know it was Fredo.

Can anyone fill in the detail of this? how does Fredo's tongue slip reveal himself to Micheal, and what was the slip of the tongue anyway?

DPWhite

08-18-2001, 01:42 PM

Earlier that day Michael introduces Fredo to Roth's people and Fredo pretends it is the first time he has met Johnny Olaf or Hyman Roth. Later at the disgusting sex show (Michael is offended, but he already knows Fredo is a perv) Fredo says that he found this place because Johnny Olaf showed it too him, but that it is too much for the old man (Hyman Roth). Well, Fredo wasn't supposed to have known either before that evening on a personal basis.

BobT

08-18-2001, 02:28 PM

It's Johnny Ola. He's Italian, not Norwegian. If he had been Norwegian, the movie would have had a much different spin. I doubt Norwegians wear orange suits however.

Of course, I misspelled Woltz, so I should probably stop correcting people.

However, DPWhite has the story right. The whole Havana episode proves that Fredo, despite what he thinks, isn't very smart.

Guinastasia

08-18-2001, 02:36 PM

I thought the whole thing about Fredo was that he was "slow"? And Sonny, even though he was supposed to be the oldest, was too much of a hothead?

BobT

08-18-2001, 02:43 PM

Fredo is very "slow" in Part I, but in Part II he actually seems like he has gotten a lot more intelligent. He's not the brightest star in the Corleone constellation, but he's improved from being the bumbler who can't even hold on to his gun while his father is being gunned down.

Moe Green must have been a good influence on him.

KneadToKnow

08-18-2001, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by BobT
The whole Havana episode proves that Fredo, despite what he thinks, isn't very smart.
I'll say!

Earlier that day Michael introduces Fredo to Roth's people and Fredo pretends it is the first time he has met Johnny Olaf or Hyman Roth. Later at the disgusting sex show (Michael is offended, but he already knows Fredo is a perv) Fredo says that he found this place because Johnny Olaf showed it too him, but that it is too much for the old man (Hyman Roth). Well, Fredo wasn't supposed to have known either before that evening on a personal basis.
The best part of this is how the camera focuses on Michael's face at this point. As soon as Ola's name is mentioned, Michael's eyes immediately shoot towards Fredo, and in a couple seconds, you see Michael put everything together in his head. He's clearly devastated that his own brother would betray him.

I don't understand why Pacino didn't win for Best Actor for that performance. That scene, and the scene in the boathouse at the end, are masterpieces of getting a simple look exactly right.

BobT

08-18-2001, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by waterj2

I don't understand why Pacino didn't win for Best Actor for that performance. That scene, and the scene in the boathouse at the end, are masterpieces of getting a simple look exactly right.

1975 was a tough year. Jack Nicholson was also nominated for "Chinatown" and Dustin Hoffman for "Lenny".

Of course, few of us will forget Art Carney in "Harry and Tonto". :)

If only Michael Corleone had owned a cat like his father did ...

Stoid

08-18-2001, 03:07 PM

One of the things that strikes me so strongly in GII is how little pleasure Michael seems to get from anything. It's all business, business, business, even at his son's birthday (which put the worst Beverly Hills bar mitzvahs to shame). I can't recall a smile in the whole movie, although I know there must have been one.

If that's what your life has become, who gives a shit? Why bother?

stoid

KneadToKnow

08-18-2001, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by waterj2
I don't understand why Pacino didn't win for Best Actor for that performance.
Jesus. I just looked at the competition (http://us.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Academy_Awards_USA/1975) and I don't understand it either. Maybe he and Nicholson split the votes ... :confused:

astorian

08-18-2001, 04:28 PM

Actually, the year Al pacino was up for Best Actor in "The Godfather Part 2," the Oscar went NOT to Jack Nicholson but to Art Carney, for "Harry & Tonto."

Now, I loved "The Honeymooners" as much as anyone, but Carney simply didn't deserve the award. He won it because Hollywood has an unfortunate tendency to give people Oscars simply for being old! (Think of how George Burns, the STAR of "The Sunshine Boys," was given Best SUPPORTING Actor).

Strangely enough, Pacino had a BIGGER role than Marlon Brando in "The Godfather," but was nominated as Best SUPPORTING Actor!

Guinastasia

08-18-2001, 04:36 PM

I watch the first one, and I can't believe how YOUNG Pacino looks...so sexy, too.

He just looks so different now.

Did they include in the movie Lucy and her whole subplot? YOu know, the girl with the um...big...uh-sexual problem?

KneadToKnow

08-18-2001, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by astorian
Actually, the year Al pacino was up for Best Actor in "The Godfather Part 2," the Oscar went NOT to Jack Nicholson but to Art Carney, for "Harry & Tonto."
Yes, I know. Hence my theory that Pacino and Nicholson split the votes between them, preventing either of them from winning and allowing an also-ran like Art Carney to take the little gold statue home.

DPWhite

08-18-2001, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by BobT
It's Johnny Ola. He's Italian, not Norwegian. If he had been Norwegian, the movie would have had a much different spin. I doubt Norwegians wear orange suits however.

Of course, I misspelled Woltz, so I should probably stop correcting people.

However, DPWhite has the story right. The whole Havana episode proves that Fredo, despite what he thinks, isn't very smart.

Bull pucky Bob, It's Olaf, and he is Norweigian. Havent' you ever seen a Saab or Volvo bomb? Lot's of Norweigian mobsters, just like "jewish" mobsters. It is what makes the story more interesting. Just kidding. Thanks for the correction.

DPWhite

08-18-2001, 05:34 PM

The academy does not like to give evil characters the award. Most of the Godfather performances have been superb. The fellow who played Fredo certainly did as fine or better an acting job as any supporting actor winner (like Robin Williams miserable performance in Good Will Hunting) ever has. He played a thoroughly unlikeable character in a sympathetic and intelligent fashion. I forget the fella's name (died a few years back), but what an great job with this character!

Sam Stone

08-18-2001, 05:39 PM

As a quick aside, did you guys realize that Johnny Ola was played by the same guy that plays Uncle Junior on the Sopranos? A couple of the guys in Tony's crew were also in the Godfather, as I recall.

And Tony's nephew Christopher was 'Spider' in Goodfellas. Lorraine Bracco, who plays the psychiatrist, was Ray Liotta's wife in Goodfellas.

Back to The Godfather (Parts I and II taken together are by far my favorite movies).

BobT

08-18-2001, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by DPWhite

The academy does not like to give evil characters the award. Most of the Godfather performances have been superb. The fellow who played Fredo certainly did as fine or better an acting job as any supporting actor winner (like Robin Williams miserable performance in Good Will Hunting) ever has. He played a thoroughly unlikeable character in a sympathetic and intelligent fashion. I forget the fella's name (died a few years back), but what an great job with this character!

The actor's name is John Cazale. He didn't do many films, but he did great ones. He did the two Godfather films, "The Conversation", "Dog Day Afternoon", and "The Deer Hunter". He died of cancer before the latter was released.

waterj2

08-18-2001, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by DPWhite

The academy does not like to give evil characters the award. Most of the Godfather performances have been superb. The fellow who played Fredo certainly did as fine or better an acting job as any supporting actor winner (like Robin Williams miserable performance in Good Will Hunting) ever has. He played a thoroughly unlikeable character in a sympathetic and intelligent fashion. I forget the fella's name (died a few years back), but what an great job with this character!
Well, that was a tough year for supporting actors, due to the high quality of the others in that movie. DeNiro's performance as the young Vito, however, was probably the best, and it did win. If everyone who deserved it from that movie got a nomination, it would have been a little unfair. As it was, DeNiro, James Grazzo (Pentangeli), and Lee Strasbourg (Roth) got nominations for best supporting actor, and Talia Shire one for best supporting actress.

Sure James Cazale, Robert Duvall, and Diane Keaton were incredible, but there has to be some sort of limit.

I've also been told that the man next to the Nevada Senator at the Congressional hearing is the man who plays Mulder's father in the X-Files.

Ranger

08-18-2001, 06:43 PM

Here is something I remember from the book. Kay had left Micheal because he lied to her about having anything to do with the death of Carlo. Tom went to New Hampshire to speak with her. Of course, Tom is a lawyer and doesn't implicate anyone, but he says something to the effect of "What if Micheal had ordered Tessio and Carlo killed? You can forgive a traitor, but does a traitor ever forgive himself?" The implication I glean from that speach is a forgiven traitor will always feel guilty and try to find some sort of justification for what he did. And let's toss in that as a former traitor, isn't this person going to be considered untrustworthy by the family even tho he's still part of it? That makes him a continued threat.

So why was Fredo killed? The same reason Tessio and Carlo were killed. Because treachery must be repaid. And Fredo had to know he was living on borrowed time. He's tippytoeing around teaching Micheal's son how to fish.

[assorted thoughts that popped up reading this thread]

"That's my family, Kay. It's not me.": I think this was a true statement when Micheal said it. Until Vito got shot, Micheal's life goal was to become a History Professor. Then, he was in a manner of speaking, drafted into fighting for his family. Micheal certainly wasn't the first person who had to go to Sicily for a while until things cooled down. As for Apollonia? Who can explain the "Thunderbolt"? Calo and Fabrizio don't try, but they can spot it a mile off. So, why the Sicilian interlude? The book explains it much better than G1; Micheal learns to understand his father and the world his father created better. And after Apollonia is killed, he says "Tell my father I'm ready to be his son."

Kay: I think Micheal's mistake was in marrying Kay. She'd make a fine New Hampshire history professor's wife, no doubt. But not a wife for an Olive Oil importer. Micheal's dream was to make the family completely legitimate. Maybe his marrying Kay was to keep that dream alive for him but he couldn't find a way to manage that without giving away the power that kept his family safe.

The Oscar: Yeah, Pacino sort of got cheated out of an oscar for both G 1 and 2. The character Micheal Corleone certainly grew and changed the most. Brando sort of phoned in his performance. But G1 was Pacinos 3rd film role. He was just a newbie. And I'll buy Nicholson and Pacino splitting the vote leaving Carney to win. Wasn't DiNero also a nominee that year? Again, less votes that would have gone to Pacino.

Nepotism Gripe: Sofia Coppola was well cast as Connie and Carlo's baby for the baptism scene. They needed a baby and rather than fuss with all the Hollywood child protective stuff, here's an available infant in the family already. But a couple years later, she was badly miscast in Peggy Sue Got Married. Unless she was supposed to have been adopted. Well, maybe from observing her at home Copolla thought she could effectively portray a whining annoying pre teen on film. I never bought her performance. And in G3? Wynona Ryder bailed and they were stuck without a young female lead (or support) and here's Sofia who wants to be a grown up actress now. Well, if Tori Spelling can do it, why not let her have a shot.

jack@ss

08-18-2001, 07:30 PM

originally posted by Ranger:
"That's my family, Kay. It's not me.": I think this was a true statement when Micheal said it. Until Vito got shot, Micheal's life goal was to become a History Professor. Then, he was in a manner of speaking, drafted into fighting for his family.

That's pretty much what I think, too. Mike didn't want to go into the family business, which was OK with Don Vito, who had bigger things in store for him, like the family's legislator. After his old man got shot, who could blame Michael for wanting to get involved? That's what put him on the slippery slope to becoming a monster, which Don Vito never appeared to be.

As for killing Fredo, Michael had come down the slope so far, and Fredo was such a miserable fuck-up, unwittingly responsible for the hit that drove the whole plot of GFII, (in my bedroom, where my wife sleeps, where my children come to play with their toys), I could understand him having his own brother whacked. I think it was equal parts paranoia and revenge that made the decision for him.

Guinastasia

08-18-2001, 08:07 PM

I also think that when Michael killed his father's killer, even then, when he went to Sicily, I think he still thought he could stay out of the business-in a way, it was a revenge. He went to Sicily, met Apollonia, and it was sort of like, "Hey, maybe I'll stay here, make a new life for myself, and things will be better." He still was trying to convince himself he could stay away from it. But then his wife was killed, and he realized he was in it, whether he wanted to or not.

I didn't like Kay-I found her to be a dormat. Of course, I'm thinking of the book, not the movie.

Stoid

08-18-2001, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by jack@ss
in my bedroom, where my wife sleeps, where my children come to play with their toys)

That's one of the main reasons we love the Corleones and the whole Mob thing...there ARE rules... this scene was wonderful because of the way he so thoroughly protected Kay. For me, as a woman, that was a very thrilling "ooooo...my hero!" kind of moment.

You don't fuck with the wives and kids. This is about men, and the evil that men do...

1) How dumb is Fredo, even in 2? Let's see. Not only does he have the "banana daquiri" issue, he suggests a *Cuba Libre* to the Senator and others. I may be way off but wouldn't a Cuba Libre be associated with the Rebels, and therefore an incredibly stupid drink suggestion in that situation? But I agree with those who say it wasn't his stupidity that got him killed. He got killed because the boathouse scene showed him to be dumb and untrustworthy and *ambitious* to the point of elevating his own needs over the family's. A mortal sin in that crowd -- and also, foir Michael, when you've already got four families trying to off you that makes Fredo really not the kind of guy to have around. Why not offed immediatley? My guess is plot device for timing. You know he's in trouble but it fades in the background until momma dies. Then you figure he's in trouble but you're not really sure. Vito showed in the Five Families "make the peace" meeting that sometimes old anger can be left behind. Much more suspense and drama immediatley then Michael just having him whacked immediatley

2) I'm with the "early Michael was a 'good guy'" school of thought. He was a Corleone so not exactly a babe in the woods but one doesn't volunteer for the service the day after Pearl Harbor just as part of his "cover". We know (from Tom Hagen?) that Vito wanted young Michael to be able to be a "legitmate" politician, which foreshadows Michael's eventual attempts in 2 and 3 to go legit. Remember the look of depair on Vito's face in the hospital when he is told that it was Michael who gunned down Solozzo and the cop. But I think the real answer to this question boils down to point #3 . . .

3) The scenes in Italy, I have always thought, are integral to the movie. My grandparents were the first Italian-Americans in the family born on US soil. The overriding themes (as I see it) in the movie are family v. society and the "American Dream" v. the "Immigrant Reality." Recall the opening scene, with the tensions in what's-his-name's life, who made his fortune by toeing the American line but then sees the injustice that the American establishment perpetrates on his child-of-an-immigrant daughter and goes to the Godfather for revenge. Think about how so many of the powerful Americans (the cop; the Senator) are as corrupt -- though "legally so" -- as the mobsters. Michael grows up knowing what mainstream culture looks like and what the Cosa Nostra Italian/American "mix" subculture looks like. In Italy he gets to see the circle closed by seeing what it was like before the Italian way of life becomes melted into the shores of the U.S. Remember the bodyguard (Fabrizio), asking about the rich Americans? Think about the final scene in 2 -- the flashback -- where Santino berates Michael for putting country -- others -- ahead of family. The transition in 1 is Michael's feeling that perhaps Sonny was right.

The_Raven

08-18-2001, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Stoid
I feel like a clear explanation has been missed here.

My understanding was always that Fredo had set Micheal

It's Michael.

-Rav

The_Raven

08-18-2001, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by JohnW77707
Ohh, kay. (No pun intended). I've been reading with great interest. Here's two cents, hopefully not yet covered.

In Italy he gets to see the circle closed by seeing what it was like before the Italian way of life becomes melted into the shores of the U.S.

Good point JW.

Remember that this man had already killed two people and had the love of his life blown to bits in front of him. Is is surprising that he's a ruthless bastard when he gets home? He's been exposed to a brutal form of clan warfare in Sicily, real eye-for-an-eye type stufftm...

Extending question...
Would it have been in character for Michael to have stayed in Sicily if the bombing where Appalonia (sp?) died hadn't happened?

-Rav

DPWhite

08-19-2001, 12:04 AM

Overtly its about an immigrant family. But the real story is about how a good man for good reasons does one bad thing that leads to another and he can never get out.

"Just when I get OUT! They PULL me BACK IN!" GIII

The road to hell is paid to good intentions. When you sell your soul, there are not take backs, and you sell the souls of your children too -- Sonny, Fredo, Connie, Michael and Michael's dauther. Only Michael's son is spared. He has committed to another course.

Triskadecamus

08-19-2001, 12:27 AM

Michael is not the good guy gone bad, he is the one whom his father planned to have "go legit" and end up in politics, so the family could have a direct in. College educated, war hero, and no connection with organized crime. Nice WASP wife is an additional touch. Michael will be the one who makes the Corleone family into a legitimate power in the country. Vito has taught him well.

That goes out the window when Vito gets hit. Michael knows his older brother cannot be the leader the family needs. He arranges to earn his "bones" in a dramatic way, right away. He is a coldly calculating SOB from the get go. He leaves the country, knowing that Sonny will eventually need him to return. He probably figures that Sonny will get himself whacked too.

Fredo has to die. No one may be allowed to perceive Michael as weak. The reputation he gains from killing his own brother is a simple logical extension of what his code requires. He is unwilling to let his brother survive after his betrayal. He will kill anyone who betrays him, and everyone must realize that that means everyone.

I think he waits to whack him until mom dies to enhance the reputation as well. He has no need to hurry. Death is simply his to deliver at will. Not being dead yet is no assurance. Michael will kill you when it serves his purposes.

Michael Corleone is a very bad man.

Kay was an idiot.

Tris
-------------------
"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." ~ Sun-tzu ~

uglybeech

08-19-2001, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by JohnW77707
We know (from Tom Hagen?) that Vito wanted young Michael to be able to be a "legitmate" politician, which foreshadows Michael's eventual attempts in 2 and 3 to go legit. Remember the look of depair on Vito's face in the hospital when he is told that it was Michael who gunned down Solozzo and the cop.

yeah I thought so too, but the other day I saw yet another cut - the Godfather Novel which has a lot of scenes I don't remember being in the original cuts or the Saga. Anyway it had one particular between Vito and Michael*. It goes roughtly like this (paraphrased):

Vito: Michael why do you never come to me like a son should?
[I don't remember Michael's exact reaction but it's clear he's uncomfortable with Vito]
Vito: What are your plans?
Michael: to finish school
Vito: school's good. I want you to finish school. But when you're done, come to me. I have plans for you.

You're left with the distinct impression that whatever Vito's plans are, they're not squeaky clean**. And also that Michael's best interests may not be first and foremost in his mind.

* the scene takes place the evening of the wedding on a visit to the dying consiglieri jenko (sp?) (remember him? I don't from the originals)

**My WAG is that the original concept (edited out of the final versions) was that Vito intended to use one of his bought congressman to get Michael an in in politics. I'm thinking how he pointedly uses another district's congressman to get the baker's wife citizenship because he wants to save the local one for more important business. This may also have been one of the original motivations for Vito refusing to let Solazzo use his congressmen.

uglybeech

08-19-2001, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by Triskadecamus

Fredo has to die. No one may be allowed to perceive Michael as weak. The reputation he gains from killing his own brother is a simple logical extension of what his code requires. He is unwilling to let his brother survive after his betrayal. He will kill anyone who betrays him, and everyone must realize that that means everyone.

I think he waits to whack him until mom dies to enhance the reputation as well. He has no need to hurry. Death is simply his to deliver at will. Not being dead yet is no assurance. Michael will kill you when it serves his purposes.

No I think that's wrong. First of all, very few people end up knowing that Michael killed Fredo. If he had needed to send a message to avoid looking weak, he would NOT have waited (years!) and he would been public about it.

The killing is strictly revenge. It's akin to Vito - 30 years after the fact - killing everyone in Sicily associated with the murder of his family - even when there's no political or strategic need for it.

If you want the moral of these movies, I think it comes when Michael returns to Corleone, asks where all the men are, and is told they've all been killed in vendettas. What happens to Corleone happens to the Corleones.

Stoid

08-19-2001, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Triskadecamus

Kay was an idiot.

For marrying him in the first place and believing he would change (she already knew he was a murderer, the papers were full of the killing of Solozzo and the policeman, and then he disappears)? That's just a lonely woman in love being in denial.

Or are you referring to the idiocy of confronting him after the hearings and thinking she could take the kids? (Telling him about the abortion was idotic, of course, but that was her only weapon to both hurt him and to impress upon him how serious she was when it became evident he was in some big fat denial of his own.) "Don't you know me? Don't you know that would never happen, that I would use all my power to prevent that from happening?"

stoid

waterj2

08-19-2001, 01:29 PM

The killing is strictly revenge. It's akin to Vito - 30 years after the fact - killing everyone in Sicily associated with the murder of his family - even when there's no political or strategic need for it.
This is something I've noticed as well. In The Godfather, it was all about keeping it "only business". Then, we see how far Michael has gone at the end, with the revenge on all his enemies. In Part II, we see that Vito himself acted purely out of revenge earlier, which is different than our original impression of him.

Wendell Wagner

08-19-2001, 11:33 PM

More about John Cazale, who played Fredo: He appeared in five films during his life, plus he appeared in some archival footage that was used in _The Godfather III_ made long after he died. All six of these films were nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture. When he died in 1978 he was engaged to Meryl Streep.

Oblong

08-20-2001, 12:20 AM

Re:Streep and Cazale...

From what I read about The Deer Hunter, they had to rework some scenes because Streep had to be close to Cazale during filming. He confided in Michael Cimino that he had cancer and was dying. He died before the film was released.

I always thought he bore a resemblance to Alan Alda. If he didn't die in II and they needed someone else to play him in III, it could have been him.

kingpengvin

08-20-2001, 10:30 AM

So why was Fredo killed? The same reason Tessio and Carlo were killed. Because treachery must be repaid. And Fredo had to know he was living on borrowed time. He's tippytoeing around teaching Micheal's son how to fish.

I think Fredo's relationship with Michael's son was legitimate. Fredo was just naive not a weasel. He never understood the implications of anything he did. He gave some information to Roth so he could improve his standing. He didn't think it would result in a hit. Also I'm positive He would never suspect his brother would kill him as so much time had elapsed since Cuba.

Hamlet

08-20-2001, 11:19 AM

I think I see the horse's tail twitching......

Michael is not the good guy gone bad, he is the one whom his father planned to have "go legit" and end up in politics, so the family could have a direct in. College educated, war hero, and no connection with organized crime. Nice WASP wife is an additional touch. Michael will be the one who makes the Corleone family into a legitimate power in the country. Vito has taught him well.

That goes out the window when Vito gets hit. Michael knows his older brother cannot be the leader the family needs. He
arranges to earn his "bones" in a dramatic way, right away. He is a coldly calculating SOB from the get go. He leaves the country, knowing that Sonny will eventually need him to return. He probably figures that Sonny will get himself whacked too.

I disagree completely. One of the best, IMO, parts of the movies is the struggle Michael has with his own humanity as he goes from a good guy to a cold-hearted killer. I don't think Vito wanted Michael to be a Senator just so they would have an "in", he wanted Michael to be the one of the family to have the legitimate side of the American Dream. Also, Michael's struggles with the family begin when he goes to the hospital to see his father. Up until his father was whacked, Michael wanted the legitimate life too, but his father was too important. I agree that he knows that Sonny could never be the head of the family, but it wasnt till the hit on Vito that Michael thought about it.

Four scenes in particular make me think these things:

1) When Vito and Michael are talking in the Garden after Vito turns over power of the family to Michael. Vito describes what he wanted for Michael, and I do not see anything other than a father who wants "better" things for his son (better being non-criminal success). No ulterior motives, no lifelong planning of becoming a war hero only to get good PR for the family.

2) The scene after Vito comes home after the shooting and Tom is telling him what happened. Vito asked what about Michael. Tom tells him that Michael was the one who actually did the hit, and after hearing that, Vito waves everyone away. Vito was clearly disturbed, and I think it was clear that it was because Micheal got involved in the family business. Vito was heartbroken that Michael did the killing, not estatic over his son taking over.

3) The hit scene itself. Pacino does some of his finest acting when he is not talking. Michael does not come out of the bathroom shooting, like he had been told by Clemenza, he goes back to the table and sits. There is a huge struggle then as Michael realizes if he does this, there is no going back. He wasn't screwing up his courage, it was an internal struggle of a Good Guy going bad.

4) The scene at the end of GFII after Fredo was killed. It is a flashback of the family dinner table with Sonny, Tom, Fredo, Carlo, and Tessio (and Clemenza I think). ANyway, it is a scene in which Michael tells Sonny and everyone that he is planning on going to college. The ONLY person to congratulate him was Fredo, who shook his hand over the table. Not only did this scene show how much Michael's feelings for Fredo had changed, but I think it shows Michael really didn't want to be part of the family. Fantastic!

Michael is a perfect example of a character who actually changes over the course of a movie. I thought it was clear that he was a good guy going bad, not a bad guy living his evil life.

justinh

08-20-2001, 02:12 PM

no the movie didnt have any about Lucy's medical problem. Always thought that was a worthless detour in the book anyway.

1. Vito wanted something better for Michael, he was his favorite. remember the train scene in the flashback. Vito is holding Michael saying "wave byebye Michael".

2.Fredo didn't know he was going to get it. He had said he was sorry so that was it. plus he was an idiot.

3.Kay was an idiot.

4. Dont remember Michael ever smiling after Sicily. maybe that was a hint at his conversion.

buddy1

08-20-2001, 02:34 PM

Abit off the topic, but what happened to Clemenza after Don Vito's funeral? We see him blowing away the guys in the elevator (While Michael's godson is being baptised), after that he sort of disappears. Seems to me such a loyal soldier should have earned the right to move to Las Vegas a s well! By the way, FREDO shouldn't have taken that fatal fishing trip. He would probably be alive if he had stayed in NYC! (I'm sure Hyman Roth could have set him up in some other racket).

kiffa

08-20-2001, 02:46 PM

Hamlet - You should have added one more scene: when Kay tells Michael that she is leaving him. He tells her that she must stay and that he was so sorry that she lost the baby. He says he understands her pain and really says "stay" with his expression until BAM she tells him that she had an abortion and not a miscarriage. In that brief moment following her confession, you can see Michael's expression go from sympathy for Kay, confusion on what he just heard to hatred of her betrayal of him, family, subculture values against abortion.
He physically attacks her.

This particular scene, for me, was a nutshell description of Michael's psyche, the theme of the Godfather trilogy and the best piece of acting I have ever seen.

Michael snuffing Fredo makes no sense. While its clear that Fredo didn't truly realise the implications of his betrayal, it isn't made clear just what that was. What did he tell Roth? Which room was Michaels? Somebody set something up, remember Kay noticing something was different in the windows? Fredo wasn't there, somebody who was there did that. Who?

It is clear from the movie that Fredo never knew anything of any real importance, he had nothing to betray with. In none of the earlier scenes is Fredo included in anything relevent, they ship him off to Vegas "to learn the hotel business" when things get rough.

And the Fredo hit itself: utterly unbelievable in the context of the movie so far. He was shot in the head. (Should have included a scene of Richard Dreyfuss fuming "this was no boating accident...".)

Crafty guy like Michael would either (a) have him leave the compound where some accident would befall him or (b) set up the "boating accident" much more realisticly. Or, better yet, leave him just as he is and keep an eye out for anyone approaching Fredo.

The shooting scene in the boat was Coppola yielding to a desire for a Dramatic Scene, regardless of whether it made sense. He should have left it with the "hard stare at Neri", that was drama! We already knew Fredo was fish food at that point.

As to Lucy's "medical condition" in the book, Coppola would have had to have been insane to include that in the movie, feminists would have ripped down the screen with thier fingernails!

There was an upclose shot of the fredo killing but they went with different angle.

I think that scene is a great one, with him saying the hail marys. The last thing we hear is "Pray for us sinners"

justinh

08-20-2001, 04:22 PM

what I want to know is:
Did Michael give his sister the money to go to Europe and marry that guy? He yells at her and tells her not to marry this guy but she doesn't seem to listen. Or did he get his way and they just don't show it. If he didn't then isn't this the only instance of him not getting his way.

also ,
is there a map of who is who is the 2 movies and the flashbacks? I get confused. like is the guy that turned informer in the first movie. who is the guy who died of the heart attack "that was no heart attack".

Dewey Cheatem Undhow

08-20-2001, 04:27 PM

Who is Lucy, and what the heck is her "medical condition"? (Only seen the movies, never read the book...)

justinh

08-20-2001, 04:39 PM

lucy was the girl that sonny was with upstairs at the wedding. she had a condition that only extra large men could satisfy her (hence thats why sonny liked her). she finally meets a dr that laughs at her shyness and fixes (sews) her up. they marry and everyone lives happily ever after. dont really remember what that had to do with the plot though.

Guinastasia

08-20-2001, 05:15 PM

Me neither-I never got the point of it.
Just something stupid, I suppose.
Either that, or just the excuse for Puzo to include the part about Sonny being REALLY REALLY well endowed.
;)

DPWhite

08-20-2001, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Oblong
Re:Streep and Cazale...

I always thought he bore a resemblance to Alan Alda. If he didn't die in II and they needed someone else to play him in III, it could have been him.

I like Alan Alda's acting, but he simply doesn't have the acting chops to pull something like this off. Also much too tall.

jsc1953

08-20-2001, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Me neither-I never got the point of it.
Just something stupid, I suppose.
Either that, or just the excuse for Puzo to include the part about Sonny being REALLY REALLY well endowed.
;)

That part is subtly included in G1--at the wedding, just as Sonny is sneakin' off, his (long-suffering) wife is indicating the length of something with her hands.

Other things cut from the book: Johnny Fontaine's buddy Dino (in case you couldn't figure it out), and the name of Vito's original consigliere (Genco Abbadanando)--again, just an echo remains in G1: Sonny tells Tom "Pop had Genco, and I'm stuck with you."

Max Harvey

08-20-2001, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by buddy1
Abit off the topic, but what happened to Clemenza after Don Vito's funeral? We see him blowing away the guys in the elevator (While Michael's godson is being baptised), after that he sort of disappears. Seems to me such a loyal soldier should have earned the right to move to Las Vegas a s well! By the way, FREDO shouldn't have taken that fatal fishing trip. He would probably be alive if he had stayed in NYC! (I'm sure Hyman Roth could have set him up in some other racket).

Clemenza died (and was almost certainly killed, see below) between GF1 and GF2.

Near the end of GF1 Clemenza and Tessio go to Michael and ask permission to start their own families. Michael tells them they have to wait until the Corleones relocate to Vegas. Tessio betrays Michael and is killed. Clemenza stays behind in NYC, presumably becoming a higher capo, but to what extent is not made clear.

At the beginning of GF2, Pentangeli and Cicci, who were in NYC with Clemenza, are wearing black armbands. To quote the transcript (http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf2/transcript/gf2transcript.html):

Clemenza's by far my favorite non-Corleone character, but I could have definitely done without that shot of him half-naked on the mattress. (shudder)

waterj2

08-20-2001, 11:18 PM

Other things cut from the book: Johnny Fontaine's buddy Dino (in case you couldn't figure it out), and the name of Vito's original consigliere (Genco Abbadanando)--again, just an echo remains in G1: Sonny tells Tom "Pop had Genco, and I'm stuck with you."
Isn't Genco the guy in G2 that Vito went into the olive oil business with. And the guy he saw the play with at the beginning, where Fanucci crosses in front of him. When they put up the sign at the new office (after the landlord leaves), it has Genco's name on it, IIRC.

Incidentally, there's a young man with Vito and the others as they watch the sign being put up, with no explanation of who he is. As a deleted scene that is included in the TV version of the Godfather sage makes clear, that is the young Hyman Roth.

Clemenza died (and was almost certainly killed, see below) between GF1 and GF2.
I believe this was because the guy who played Clemenza wanted some sort of exhorbitant concessions (including writing his own lines) from Coppola, so they wrote him out. Also, I think Brando wanted some insane amount of money to appear in the flashback.

Max Harvey

08-20-2001, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by uglybeech

First of all, very few people end up knowing that Michael killed Fredo.

Even though it’s assumed that only Michael and Neri witnessed Fredo being shot, and Connie says in GF3 it was a shame how Fredo "drowned", no enemy of Michael Corleone would believe that anyone – anyone – associated with Michael would die innocently. (Especially Connie, after Carlo’s death, wouldn’t be that naive.)

They might have believed that Fredo was whacked by another Corleone enemy, maybe someone associated with Roth, Pentangeli, Barzini et al. But someone so close to Michael? Wouldn't Fredo be practically untouchable?

And it was definitely not a secret that Michael was very, very upset (to put it mildly) with Fredo. The kiss of death at the New Year's Eve party, Connie's plea for reconciliation and the extremely tense mood at their mother's funeral...

I think that, yes, Michael had Fredo killed to "send a message" to his enemies to some extent. But also, at that point in his character, Michael had no idea how to "handle" Fredo as far as eliminating him as a threat, except by killing him. IOW he wasn’t really thinking it through, and just responded the only way he could.

Plus (and this is kinda stretching) I think he wanted to feel guilt for the things he’d done. And having Fredo killed would be the kind of guilt that would never, ever leave him. Why did Michael watch Fredo’s murder through the window? Why would Michael want to actually see his brother, "my mother’s son", get his brains blown out? To make sure Neri did the job? Come on, this was Fredo. It was about as hard as assassinating a legless cow. Michael watched because he knew that would be an image that would haunt him for the rest of his life.

(This is what is so incredible about GF2. So many unanswered questions and ways to interpret motives. I’ve seen it countless times and I pick up something new every time.)

If he had needed to send a message to avoid looking weak, he would NOT have waited (years!) and he would been public about it.

Jeez, he had his brother killed. What do you expect, a half-page ad in the Post? :)

Ranger

08-20-2001, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by waterj2
[BIsn't Genco the guy in G2 that Vito went into the olive oil business with. And the guy he saw the play with at the beginning, where Fanucci crosses in front of him. When they put up the sign at the new office (after the landlord leaves), it has Genco's name on it, IIRC.

Incidentally, there's a young man with Vito and the others as they watch the sign being put up, with no explanation of who he is. As a deleted scene that is included in the TV version of the Godfather sage makes clear, that is the young Hyman Roth.

[/B]

Though the G1 and 2 pair are the best film treatments of any novel I've ever seen, you still have to have read the book. When 8 year old orphan Antonio Andolini (Later known as Vito Corleone) was sent from Sicily to America, he was sent to live with immigrants from Corleone, the Abandandos. One presumes young Vito was raised as a member of the family (remember how Vito informally adopted Tom Hagen as a son?) and Genco was his 'brother'. Fannuci had Vito fired from the Abandando shop so his nephew could be hired in. You might remember Genco taking Vito aside to explain what Fannuci was doing taking money out of his father's cash register.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was young Tessio, Genco and Clemenza celebrating the sign being raised. What the hell would Hyman Roth be doing in Little Italy then? It wasn't until prohibition or after prohibition did Vito Corleone really become known as a 'Man of Respect' outside of those couple of blocks north of Canal St.

waterj2

08-21-2001, 12:06 AM

No, the preceeding (cut) scene has Clemenza (IIRC) introducing Roth to Vito, as some guy he thinks could be useful. Something about Roth knowing how to fix the truck.

When they are looking at the sign, Roth and someone else come out of the garage to stand with the others. He's the scruffy, dirty looking guy in the back, and doesn't say anything.

Koxinga

08-21-2001, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Oblong
There was an upclose shot of the fredo killing but they went with different angle.

I think that scene is a great one, with him saying the hail marys. The last thing we hear is "Pray for us sinners"

And of course, the camera cuts away before we hear the last part of the prayer: "now and at the hour of our death". I always wondered if Fredo subconsciously knows what's about to happen--from his tone of voice, it doesn't sound like he's just praying for the sake of catching a fish.

handsomeharry

08-29-2001, 09:34 PM

i think that there is one thing that has been terribly overlooked on the gf pts 2 & 3 questions and responses, and that is, that coppola did a crappy job of tying it together...the part 2 where connie comes back saying how "i rebelled...to hurt you" junk is the old writer's ploy called deux ex machina, and i think that people are dissing the concept because they think that anyone who directed the original which was great couldn't have possibly have directed one and have such idiotic stunts as those in pt 2. the "i always wanted to be thought of as a brother by you" by tom...where did that come from??? not from the book or from the original (wshere it was shown that he was thot of as same) and there certainly wasn't any foundation for it in pt 2. more of this all thru movie. No, coppola gave us crapola! sorry. 3 was better tho.

Koxinga

08-29-2001, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by handsomeharry
the part 2 where connie comes back saying how "i rebelled...to hurt you" junk is the old writer's ploy called deux ex machina

How do you figure that? And shouldn't it be deus ex machina?

bibliophage

08-29-2001, 10:14 PM

It's times like these I am so grateful to have the new forum. Off to Cafe Society.

bibliophage
moderator, GQ

aseymayo

08-30-2001, 02:00 AM

I recently rented GIII (mainly because I watched the first two on AMC and was sufficiently curious to see how the story resolved) and I've come to the conclusion that Michael killed Fredo largely so he would have something to agonize over in Chapter III. Michael apparently didn't much regret the other murders he had a hand in.

GIII was a real let-down. It's as if Coppola and Puzo didn't bother to review their own earlier work before they wrote the screenplay. I guess they forgot Lucy Mancini had been married off - they brought her back as the mother of Santino's illegitimate child, Vincenzo Mancini, Michael's eventual successor. But what happened to Sonny's legit children? Didn't he have several kids running around the Corleone compound in GI? Why wasn't Michael obsessed with "being strong" for those members of his family? Are Sonny's children mentioned in the GIII novel?

Wendell Wagner

08-30-2001, 10:02 AM

aseymayo writes:

> I guess they forgot Lucy Mancini had been married off -
> they brought her back as the mother of Santino's
> illegitimate child, Vincenzo Mancini, Michael's eventual
> successor.

Lucy was married off in the book and had no illegitimate children there. In the first movie, she has an affair with Sonny and nothing is said about her after Sonny's death. No mention is made either way about her being pregnant when Sonny is killed. Clearly, Coppola decided to ignore the part of the novel where Lucy moves to Las Vegas and marries the doctor and do something entirely different with her character.

Oblong

08-30-2001, 10:46 AM

In Coppola's defense on GFIII, which was horrible, he didn't get enough time from the studio. He wanted it released at Christmas in 1991, they wanted it released Thanksgiving of 1990. Then Winona Ryder freaked out and he had to get a replacement quick. They had already started production.

Sonny's children were present at the picture in the beginning of III. In fact, it was the same actresses who played the twins in I and II.

Smitty

08-30-2001, 04:20 PM

Michael has Fredo killed because (as Tom explains to Connie in the book) it it too dangerous to leave a known enemy alive. The reasoning goes that once someone has betrayed you, even if you forgive them, they can never be CERTAIN that you have forgiven them. This makes it risky in that they are more likely to take another crack at you because of their fear of the revenge that they know they have coming.

pixiesean

09-28-2013, 11:59 PM

Michael stood as Godfather for his sister's child BECAUSE he knew he was going to kill her husband, not in spite of the fact.

pixiesean

09-29-2013, 12:01 AM

hh

The Second Stone

09-29-2013, 02:16 AM

Fredo was bound to do something stupid again. And the inner circle knew what Fredo had done. Any one of them would be a threat if Michael did not exact revenge.

As for Connie, in Part III (a good movie, but not an all time top 10 great like the first two, mostly because Pacino didn't carry the whole project like he did Part II) when she says poor Fredo drowning, it's pretty clear that she doesn't believe it but saying she believes it to let Michael know she does not blame him. Remember that in Part III (for those that will admit its existence) that she is also planning hits and who lives and dies and that she is no dummy or waif and kills Eli Wallach herself.

Strainger

09-29-2013, 02:33 AM

I'm going to note here that this is a 12 year old ZOMBIE thread.

fjs1fs

09-30-2013, 03:16 PM

Definitely the best scene in the movie. Hell, it even gave Al Neri the creeps - he could hardly believe it and had to avert his eyes.

As for the OP, I always naturally assumed he killed Fredo simply b/c he took sides against the family again, which he was warned not to do.

Yes, amazing scene.

And I agree with the "why" and I'm always baffled that people even ask this question--Fredo was the enemy, regardless of his "blood."

fjs1fs

09-30-2013, 03:18 PM

Fredo was bound to do something stupid again. And the inner circle knew what Fredo had done. Any one of them would be a threat if Michael did not exact revenge.

As for Connie, in Part III (a good movie, but not an all time top 10 great like the first two, mostly because Pacino didn't carry the whole project like he did Part II) when she says poor Fredo drowning, it's pretty clear that she doesn't believe it but saying she believes it to let Michael know she does not blame him. Remember that in Part III (for those that will admit its existence) that she is also planning hits and who lives and dies and that she is no dummy or waif and kills Eli Wallach herself.

That may be the first time I've ever heard or seen someone say Part III was a good movie. I thought everyone agreed that it was an abomination and a desecration of the great name of perhaps the two best movies of all time.

fjs1fs

09-30-2013, 03:28 PM

I'm going to note here that this is a 12 year old ZOMBIE thread.

Yep, I just noticed that. But it's much better than the other threads.

Subterraneanus

09-30-2013, 03:34 PM

Because Francis said so.

Wendell Wagner

09-30-2013, 05:25 PM

The Godfather Part I: 9.2 rating on IMDb, 100/100 on Metacritic, 100% on Rotten Tomatoes

The Godfather Part II: 9.0 rating on IMDb, 71/100 on Metacritic, 98% on Rotten Tomatoes

The Godfather Part III: 7.6 rating on IMDb, 60/100 on Metacritic, 68% on Rotten Tomatoes

So this is an exaggeration:

> I thought everyone agreed that it was an abomination and a desecration of the
> great name of perhaps the two best movies of all time.

Mahaloth

09-30-2013, 06:52 PM

That may be the first time I've ever heard or seen someone say Part III was a good movie. I thought everyone agreed that it was an abomination and a desecration of the great name of perhaps the two best movies of all time.

He had found out that Frodo was going to destroy the ring, and he couldn't bear to see such a powerful weapon be lost.

Mr. Goob

09-30-2013, 07:16 PM

Qadgop, that has to be one of the best Hijacks ever.

Ranger Jeff

09-30-2013, 09:48 PM

I'm going to note here that this is a 12 year old ZOMBIE thread.

Yes. Just when I thought It was dead... it pulled me back in. :smack:

Andiethewestie

09-30-2013, 10:48 PM

The Godfather Part I: 9.2 rating on IMDb, 100/100 on Metacritic, 100% on Rotten Tomatoes

The Godfather Part II: 9.0 rating on IMDb, 71/100 on Metacritic, 98% on Rotten Tomatoes

The Godfather Part III: 7.6 rating on IMDb, 60/100 on Metacritic, 68% on Rotten Tomatoes

So this is an exaggeration:

> I thought everyone agreed that it was an abomination and a desecration of the
> great name of perhaps the two best movies of all time.

Nah, GF3 wasn't bad at all. I wasn't thrilled with it when I first saw it because I compared it to the other two at the time, but on second viewing just lately it was a pretty decent film. Should have fleshed out the Vatican corruption more, but it was a solid effort. I know first time through some peeps hated the casting of Sophia Coppola, and George Hamilton. But Andy Garcia made up for that :)

Harvey The Heavy

10-01-2013, 06:04 AM

Trying to come up with a Zombie Fredo joke. Coming up short.

Ranger Jeff

10-01-2013, 09:20 AM

Trying to come up with a Zombie Fredo joke. Coming up short.

He's dead. Fred.

fjs1fs

10-01-2013, 10:20 AM

The Godfather Part I: 9.2 rating on IMDb, 100/100 on Metacritic, 100% on Rotten Tomatoes

The Godfather Part II: 9.0 rating on IMDb, 71/100 on Metacritic, 98% on Rotten Tomatoes

The Godfather Part III: 7.6 rating on IMDb, 60/100 on Metacritic, 68% on Rotten Tomatoes

So this is an exaggeration:

> I thought everyone agreed that it was an abomination and a desecration of the
> great name of perhaps the two best movies of all time.

I think my "everyone agreed" was understood (by "everyone") to be hype. But I have to admit that I'm surprised that 68% of the audience liked #3. Taken on its own, maybe it wasn't as bad a movie as I remember, and perhaps my high expectations caused the letdown--but watching it was two of the most uncomfortable hours of my life that I can't get back.

What Exit?

10-01-2013, 11:29 AM

GF3 was not a terrible movie, it was a terrible disappointment. It was a huge drop off from the greatness of the first 2 movies. It probably should not have been made. But it really is not a terrible movie.

Now Alien & Aliens were really good movie but their 3rd movie was awful trash.
I am surprised by the imdb ratings, but I think Rotten Tomatoes sums it up accurately.

Michael stood as Godfather for his sister's child BECAUSE he knew he was going to kill her husband, not in spite of the fact.

My problem with the GF1 is that now, every single time I'm present at an infant baptism and the priest is asking the sponsors the questions, I think of the movie!:p

terentii

10-01-2013, 06:15 PM

How dumb is Fredo, even in 2? Let's see. Not only does he have the "banana daquiri" issue, he suggests a *Cuba Libre* to the Senator and others. I may be way off but wouldn't a Cuba Libre be associated with the Rebels, and therefore an incredibly stupid drink suggestion in that situation?

If I'm not mistaken, the Cuba Libre dates back to the Spanish-American War (1898). US servicemen stationed there decided to liven up their white rums by mixing them with Coca-Cola (and, I would assume, lime).

SFAIK, it has nothing to do with Castro or his rebels.

NDP

10-01-2013, 07:11 PM

Trying to come up with a Zombie Fredo joke. Coming up short.
He's dead. Fred.

You mean Freddie's dead? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0OGoP9GTfY)

I know. Different movie.

Wendell Wagner

10-01-2013, 07:58 PM

The Cuba Libre probably dates to a couple years after the Spanish-American War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba_Libre

Alex from CB

10-09-2013, 06:06 PM

Gosh, you folks have seen this picture show more than Professor Fleeber .....

I thought the book made clear the reason Michael whacked Fredo was because not doing so would have been unthinkable and shown him as weak to his 2 new Capo's Neri and Rocco Lampone. And that was the reason for the looked when he hugged Fredo.

Richard Castellano was the actor who played Clemenza in GI. He errored, I think when uttering that famous line, "Leave the gun, take the canolis". He clearly says it with the .... S.... sound at the end. Yet, The plural for cannolo (or connolu in Sisilian) is cannoli not canolis. Any good Italian would have known that. So like Neil Armstrong, he blows one of the most memorable lines in history.

Miller

10-09-2013, 06:53 PM

You mean Freddie's dead? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0OGoP9GTfY)

That's what I said.

handsomeharry

10-10-2013, 07:11 PM

Hamlet - You should have added one more scene: when Kay tells Michael that she is leaving him. He tells her that she must stay and that he was so sorry that she lost the baby. He says he understands her pain and really says "stay" with his expression until BAM she tells him that she had an abortion and not a miscarriage. In that brief moment following her confession, you can see Michael's expression go from sympathy for Kay, confusion on what he just heard to hatred of her betrayal of him, family, subculture values against abortion.
He physically attacks her.

This particular scene, for me, was a nutshell description of Michael's psyche, the theme of the Godfather trilogy and the best piece of acting I have ever seen.

Great acting...and, one of the many reasons that I despise GF2. A total deviation from the Kay of the book, and of GF1, with no justification for it. All of a sudden, she's a strong 70s women's libber, who is out to make the world a better place, and, in so doing, she aborts her baby for the common good. Shit dialogue. BTW, who on earth would be so insistent, esp. to his Consigliere, on asking if a miscarried baby was a boy or girl?
One of the many parts of the movie that show that it was cobbled together out of nowhere. POS movie, IMHO. Don't get me started. Oh, too late.

Shmendrik

10-10-2013, 07:53 PM

I thought the book made clear the reason Michael whacked Fredo was because not doing so would have been unthinkable and shown him as weak to his 2 new Capo's Neri and Rocco Lampone. And that was the reason for the looked when he hugged Fredo.

What book? You mean the sequel to the original novel, published 5 years after Puzo died and 30 years after The Godfather Part II came out? I don't see why Mark Winegardner has any special authority to interpret the movie.

Freddy the Pig

10-11-2013, 10:13 AM

Richard Castellano was the actor who played Clemenza in GI. He errored, I think when uttering that famous line, "Leave the gun, take the canolis". He clearly says it with the .... S.... sound at the end. Yet, The plural for cannolo (or connolu in Sisilian) is cannoli not canolis. Any good Italian would have known that.Ah, but he was speaking English, so he mindlessly applied the English pluralization rule--not realizing that English speakers still follow the Italian rules for that particular word.

(Or do they? How do most English speakers say it? I haven't heard it come up in conversation very often. My family never ate much Italian food. One cannoli, two cannoli? One cannolo, two cannoli? One cannoli, two cannolis? Beats me.)

fjs1fs

10-11-2013, 01:41 PM

Ah, but he was speaking English, so he mindlessly applied the English pluralization rule--not realizing that English speakers still follow the Italian rules for that particular word.

(Or do they? How do most English speakers say it? I haven't heard it come up in conversation very often. My family never ate much Italian food. One cannoli, two cannoli? One cannolo, two cannoli? One cannoli, two cannolis? Beats me.)

I think most NY-Italian Americans (of which I am "half" of one, and I grew up around tons of them) would pluralize this pronunciation.

SaharaTea

10-11-2013, 06:10 PM

Great acting...and, one of the many reasons that I despise GF2. A total deviation from the Kay of the book, and of GF1, with no justification for it. All of a sudden, she's a strong 70s women's libber, who is out to make the world a better place, and, in so doing, she aborts her baby for the common good. Shit dialogue. BTW, who on earth would be so insistent, esp. to his Consigliere, on asking if a miscarried baby was a boy or girl?
One of the many parts of the movie that show that it was cobbled together out of nowhere. POS movie, IMHO. Don't get me started. Oh, too late.
I haven't read the book, but I don't think Kay's behavior comes out of nowhere. At the beginning she's clearly frustrated with Michael's overdue promise about the family going legitimate. Then there's the assassination attempt in her own bedroom, which would scare the bejeezus out of anyone. Throughout the movie we see that Michael is becoming estranged from his family. I also don't think she's trying to "make the world a better place," she's justifiably concerned about her children growing up in a place where there are literally bullets coming through the windows.

I also don't get why it's so strange that Michael wanted to know if the miscarriage was a boy or a girl, since he obviously had his heart set on having a boy.

Old Coach

01-28-2016, 01:41 AM

It's not quite accurate to say Tom was fired. In fact, he continues serving as the legal counsel for Michael and the family. Under the recommendation of his father, Michael relieves him from his role as consigliere to protect Tom from being in any way connected to the murders of the head of the other five families as well as Moe Green and Carlo's execution.

Great 16 year old thread!

Cumberdale

01-28-2016, 05:21 PM

The should have just ended the series with the Godfather walking off with Ferris Bueler and a Komodo dragon.

Richard John Marcej

01-28-2016, 05:30 PM

While I agree with just about everyone, how Godfather III is a mediocre to bad film and probably never should have been made, it does make me laugh that it has one of the most memorable lines that gets quoted a lot.

Appropriate in a way this thread popped back up as Tessio (Abe Vigoda) just passed away at age 94.

Ranger Jeff

01-28-2016, 06:40 PM

On some talk show, probably Johnny Carson, Vigoda told the story of the time he got stopped by a cop for a minor traffic thing and the cop thought he looked suspicious and detained him for a bit. This occurred after GF1 and before Barney Miller.

the_diego

01-28-2016, 06:42 PM

That must have screwed up his arrangements.

DeptfordX

01-31-2016, 02:37 PM

Having actually watched it again about a year ago GF3 isn't that bad. The lead weight around the film is Sofia Coppola who really is as bad as the legend depicts. I'm sure she's a nice human being, and apparently a decent director behind the camera, but man don't put her in front of one. Apparently it was originally supposed to be Winona Ryder.

Sam Stone

01-31-2016, 04:43 PM

I have a different take.

I've always thought that Michael was sincere when he told Tom to tell Fredo "Tell him everything's alright... that I know he didn't know they would try to kill me".

Also, when leaving Cuba he yells "your still my brother"

I didn't think Michael decided to kill Fredo until Fredo lashed out at him in the boathouse. That's when he realized he was beyond weak and stupid, he was jealous.

I think this is exactly it.

A Fredo who loves the family but who made a stupid mistake and was honestly repentant could be allowed to live.

A Fredo who intentionally screwed over the family out of spite and jealousy would be a threat until the day he died.

Fredo didn't need to have power to be a threat to Michael. All he needed was the FBI and a witness protection program. Eventually, Fredo would have ratted him out. So Michael killed him.

What makes the Godfather movies (and especially Godfather II) so great is the masterful job they did at depicting the corrupting influence of power and money. Don Corleone was a 'great man', but his blind spots just about got him killed and his trust in the people around him led to several of them stabbing him in the back. Michael's character arc started out with him being an idealistic young military hero surrounded by a family who loved him, and who wanted nothing to do with the business, and ended up with him a ruthless killer all alone in the world.

The tragedy of it all was that he supposedly did it to protect the family, and in the end the logical result of the trail of violence that required resulted in the utter destruction of the family anyway. All that was left was naked ambition and hatred.

drad dog

01-31-2016, 08:54 PM

I think this is exactly it.

A Fredo who loves the family but who made a stupid mistake and was honestly repentant could be allowed to live.

A Fredo who intentionally screwed over the family out of spite and jealousy would be a threat until the day he died.

Fredo didn't need to have power to be a threat to Michael. All he needed was the FBI and a witness protection program. Eventually, Fredo would have ratted him out. So Michael killed him.

What makes the Godfather movies (and especially Godfather II) so great is the masterful job they did at depicting the corrupting influence of power and money. Don Corleone was a 'great man', but his blind spots just about got him killed and his trust in the people around him led to several of them stabbing him in the back. Michael's character arc started out with him being an idealistic young military hero surrounded by a family who loved him, and who wanted nothing to do with the business, and ended up with him a ruthless killer all alone in the world.

The tragedy of it all was that he supposedly did it to protect the family, and in the end the logical result of the trail of violence that required resulted in the utter destruction of the family anyway. All that was left was naked ambition and hatred.

You are stripping all that is great out of it to obtain an "explanation"

One brother killing another brother because he was disloyal to the family is shakespearian. This calculation is so much less than the film.

the_diego

01-31-2016, 08:56 PM

"He injured me."

Sampiro

01-31-2016, 10:34 PM

While I agree with just about everyone, how Godfather III is a mediocre to bad film and probably never should have been made, it does make me laugh that it has one of the most memorable lines that gets quoted a lot.

"Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in."

The worst thing to me about Godfather III was how good parts of it were. There were definitely flashes of the old brilliance- Michael's stroke, the chopper strike, all of Keaton and Pacino's scenes together had the chemistry of decades, etc.- but several factors, not all of the names of the, kept it from achieving the status of the others.

NDP

01-31-2016, 11:08 PM

Having actually watched it again about a year ago GF3 isn't that bad. The lead weight around the film is Sofia Coppola who really is as bad as the legend depicts. I'm sure she's a nice human being, and apparently a decent director behind the camera, but man don't put her in front of one. Apparently it was originally supposed to be Winona Ryder.

You're correct. Ryder was the first choice but dropped out due to illness. Coppola then offered the role to Julia Roberts but she was busy.

the_diego

02-01-2016, 08:43 PM

Was Cardinal Lamberto right in hearing confession from an ill Michael Corleone?

bucketybuck

02-02-2016, 02:08 PM

The tragedy of it all was that he supposedly did it to protect the family

This is the big disconnect for me, its all supposed to be about "the family" and everything is done to protect "the family" but then he goes and kills various members of the family himself. Guess its not about the family so much after all.

BrotherCadfael

02-02-2016, 02:22 PM

Was Cardinal Lamberto right in hearing confession from an ill Michael Corleone?Absolutely right to hear it. Whether or not to grant absolution is a whole other matter...

Scumpup

02-02-2016, 02:25 PM

It was not a disconnect for me. I always had a clear impression, in the novel and movies both, that the mobsters were totally full of shit. The whole "men of honor" act was just that. An act. No matter what they said, it all came down to the lust for power.

Sam Stone

02-02-2016, 02:39 PM

This is the big disconnect for me, its all supposed to be about "the family" and everything is done to protect "the family" but then he goes and kills various members of the family himself. Guess its not about the family so much after all.

That's the 'corrupting' part. In the end, it just comes down to money and power. Ostensibly the goal was to gain this power and money to protect the family, but in the end it destroyed it. All that was left was money and power.

This is the neverending story. It's why politics are so dismal, why idealists become the establishment, why revolutionary leaders for causes wind up as despots with billions of dollars in hidden bank accounts while their movement lies in tatters around them.

Malthus

02-02-2016, 03:24 PM

This is the big disconnect for me, its all supposed to be about "the family" and everything is done to protect "the family" but then he goes and kills various members of the family himself. Guess its not about the family so much after all.

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

The story is intended as a tragedy. Originally, Michael was full of good intentions and turned his back on his family's criminality. However, when his father's life was threatened, Michael fell back on the only thing he knew "worked" to protect him - violence. Gradually, he rationalizes taking over as the new boss, all in order to protect his family ... but in doing so, he loses them utterly: some he ends up killing, his wife he drives away with his lies and manipulations - so he ends up utterly alone. Having ruined and corrupted everything good in his life.

Jim's Son

02-02-2016, 09:35 PM

In Puzo's novel after Kay realizes Michael had Carlo killed (she and Connie had been working for years to get Carlo more accepted by the family and apparently was doing a good job with the Corleone-controlled unions), she takes the kids and goes to New Hampshire. Eventually Tom Hagen goes to retrieve. Eventually after dancing around, Tom finally levels with her. Yes, Michael had Tessio and Carlo killed. But only because both betrayed the family and if you let a traitor live, no one, including you or the kids, is safe. Upset with Michael being the godfather for Carlo's kid and killing him (in the novel the executions happened days after the christening and not all at once)? Guess what Kay, you talked him into it. You went to college and you must recognize what a smart move it was to lull an enemy into complacency. Finally Tom tells Kay that if she repeats this conversion to Michael, then Tom is a dead man. Kay and the children are the only people Michael would never hurt. Kay returns and bonds with Mama Corleone, becoming a Catholic and praying for Michael's soul.

Tom for the most part is pretty smart. He failed to see that the Five Families were laying low, waiting to kill Sonny, which Genco would have realized. But he is the only one who doesn't laugh when Michael says he will kill the NYPD captain and he figures out Michael and Vito are secretly building a new army under Rocco. So by that statement Michael is willing to kill Fredo if necessary.

In someways Fredo gets a bad rap. He is usually described as weak but that's because he saw his father shot before his eyes...and Fredo was the son most devoted to his parents. Sonny is shocked by Fredo's appearance, saying he looks worse than Vito. But Michael saw military combat and he's seen tough guys fall to pieces in combat.

I suppose the novel implies that Michael does go legitimate. In Sicily he understands why his parents'w generation are the way they are. But he also sees Sicily as a land of ghosts, corrupted by the Mafia. At the house where he stays, the Don has an uncle who is a doctor. But this guy got his degree by the mob who suggested strongly to the medical school professors what his grades should be. In America the doctor who diagnoses Lucy's problem, finds a doctor to perform the surgery and then tests it out to make sure it was done right, is a very competent doctor who ran afoul of the law in New York for performing abortions.

Ranger Jeff

02-02-2016, 10:22 PM

I think this is exactly it.

A Fredo who loves the family but who made a stupid mistake and was honestly repentant could be allowed to live.

A Fredo who intentionally screwed over the family out of spite and jealousy would be a threat until the day he died.

Fredo didn't need to have power to be a threat to Michael. All he needed was the FBI and a witness protection program. Eventually, Fredo would have ratted him out. So Michael killed him.

And even a honestly repentant Fredo could have stupidly said something that could get back to one of Michael's enemies. Alive, Fredo was both a threat via the FBI and Corleone family enemies and perceived as a weakness of Don Michael.

I think the look that Michael and Al Neri exchanged at Mama Corleone's funeral was Michael telling Neri to carry out his previous instructions.

Sampiro

02-03-2016, 01:35 PM

About the only alternative for Fredo would have been lifelong house arrest.

In one of the authorized sequels they made Fredo a closeted gay guy who'd once been molested by his priest. I thought this was hackier than anything Puzo ever wrote.

Darth_Hamsandwich

02-03-2016, 01:46 PM

Finally Tom tells Kay that if she repeats this conversion to Michael, then Tom is a dead man.

Michael became a master manipulator, pure and simple. He acquired this trait under his father's tutelage, and from getting directly involved in the family business.

I always imagined that it was Michael who sent Tom to talk to Kay with explicit instructions to stress the fact that he would be killed if Kay revealed the true facts of Carlo's death. It makes sense, really: for one, it brings Kay back into the fold. And two, it enforces the idea that Kay should never ask Michael about his affairs.

Tamerlane

02-03-2016, 01:59 PM

In someways Fredo gets a bad rap.

Sure. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeJj9k851R0)

Scumpup

02-03-2016, 02:02 PM

Refresh my memory...is it mentioned in the novel whether Fredo had made his bones?

OneCentStamp

02-03-2016, 02:08 PM

Who is Lucy, and what the heck is her "medical condition"? (Only seen the movies, never read the book...)

I know this question is old, but I dont see anywhere it was answered in the thread.

Lucy is a girl with whom Sonny has an affair, starting with a chance encounter at Mike's wedding. She has a huge cavernous vagina. Sonny has a big giant rhinoceros penis, the only one that can make her feel like a natural woman. After the untimely demise, in an unfortunate tollbooth accident, of her provider of massive dong, she moves out west. A plastic surgeon, who apparently read How the Grinch Stole Christmas backwards as a medical school text, operated on her yawning vajayjay, making it three sizes smaller. She is never again mentioned in the story, but presumably lived happily ever after.

Word choice aside, that's verbatim from the book. You can see how, in adapting the book for film, it was considered an easily excised tangent: Lucy is basically Tom Bombadil with a roomy birth canal.

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Jim's Son

02-03-2016, 02:58 PM

Refresh my memory...is it mentioned in the novel whether Fredo had made his bones?

I don't remember it. There is a part in the novel that Vito in the 1930s tries to organize the New York underworld into a more streamlined, efficient organization. An Irish gang refuses to see his wisdom and one suicidal member penetrates Vito's security screen. Sonny takes over and like a young Napoleon quickly suppresses the Irish gang. Perhaps Fredo helped him but it isn't stated.

I suppose one minor benefit to having Lucy in Las Vegas is she is sent there by Vito (who felt Sonny took advantage of her) given points in the hotel as long as she passes back information. Later when Tom and Mike go to Las Vegas, they are astounded to find Fredo is having threesomes with cocktail waitresses. This explains to Mike and Tom why Vito is so upset with Fredo. A sexual prude, he considered Fredo's actions as sheer degeneracy.

But good move, Francis Ford, in dropping the big vagina story.

74westy

02-03-2016, 04:22 PM

But good move, Francis Ford, in dropping the big vagina story.

I read somewhere that when Coppola first read the novel, he got to the part about Lucy's plumbing problems, quit reading and decided not to do the movie. He had to be talked into finishing.

Sampiro

02-03-2016, 06:27 PM

Lucy is a girl with whom Sonny has an affair, starting with a chance encounter at Mike's wedding. She has a huge cavernous vagina. Sonny has a big giant rhinoceros penis, the only one that can make her feel like a natural woman. After the untimely demise, in an unfortunate tollbooth accident, of her provider of massive dong, she moves out west. A plastic surgeon, who apparently read How the Grinch Stole Christmas backwards as a medical school text, operated on her yawning vajayjay, making it three sizes smaller. She is never again mentioned in the story, but presumably lived happily ever after.

I've wondered if this was Mario Puzo's form of a PSA. It sounds almost like he knew somebody- his wife maybe?- who had this problem and wanted people to know "help is available". Otherwise it doesn't work at all and I'm surprised that his editor didn't make a big X through it since it's such a non-sequitur for such a minor character. This would be like having a chapter in Gone With the Wind deal with Scarlett's aunt Pauline's battle against incontinence until Prissy fashions her an adult diaper.

Kind of funny that her vagina is retconned to produce Vincent Mancini considering how much attention it was given in the book.

jsc1953

02-03-2016, 07:10 PM

You can see how, in adapting the book for film, it was considered an easily excised tangent: Lucy is basically Tom Bombadil with a roomy birth canal.

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This is when the SDMB needs a Like button.

If I was writing a textbook on book-to-film adaptation issues, I would work that into the title. Something like "Tom Bombadil, Lucy Mancini and other easily-jettisoned Characters"

Quip

07-29-2016, 08:11 AM

fantastic!
I came here to read up a bit on the topic and I immediately saw the thread was 15 years old, so I said to myself that I would read and that would be it, only to discover the thread has rekindeled, not once but twice and is still alive, and its stuck on topic and is still getting great answers.
That's the first time I've seen this since I began using internet in 94.
Thank you all!

Shodan

07-29-2016, 08:47 AM

Welcome to the SDMB, Quip.

As long as this thread (unlike Fredo) is back from the dead, I will say that the parts in the book about Lucy Mancini and Appollonia are purely salacious and don't advance the plot at all. Lucy is just there to emphasize that Sonny is Biggus Dickus, and once her excessively large vagina is fixed, she only appears once again. Appollonia is just there for Michael to be hit by "the thunderbolt", there is a great deal of attention paid to how great it is to boink a virgin, and then she gets blown up. She is never even mentioned again, and she was pregnant with Michael's first child.

Regards,
Shodan

Jim's Son

07-29-2016, 02:32 PM

Welcome to the SDMB, Quip.

As long as this thread (unlike Fredo) is back from the dead, I will say that the parts in the book about Lucy Mancini and Appollonia are purely salacious and don't advance the plot at all. Lucy is just there to emphasize that Sonny is Biggus Dickus, and once her excessively large vagina is fixed, she only appears once again. Appollonia is just there for Michael to be hit by "the thunderbolt", there is a great deal of attention paid to how great it is to boink a virgin, and then she gets blown up. She is never even mentioned again, and she was pregnant with Michael's first child.

Regards,
Shodan

Well...in the book there are a lot of pages devoted to Lucy being pursued by the doctor Jules which does end with him testing out her new vagina. But yeah, it's kind of a strange plot line.

The Apollonia story line can be seen as an example of Michael negotiating with people to get what he wants. He and his two bodyguards end up in the cafe which is owned by her father. He is upset by Michael having the "thunderbolt" over his daughter and mutters about getting revenge. While the bodyguards urge Michael to leave, he insteads has them get the father. apologizes if he inadvertently was disrespectful, draws the man into his confidence by saying he is a wanted fugitive and mixes reward with a threat by saying he wants to date his daughter under adult supervision (no shacking up in hotels like he did with Kay). If he refuses and tells the police, Apollonia will lose a father instead of getting a husband.

Apollonia is mentioned later when Vito asks Michael if Fabrizzio, who planted the bomb, has been found and Michael says he found him a year ago in Buffalo running a pizzeria. Michael does tell Kay after they meet again (the book and movie differ as to how they reconnect) by saying he hasn't been with anyone in six months (she hasn't been with anyone the whole two years).

But certainly there is a large salacious aspect in both the book and getting a long shot of breasts for the movie. Although a lot of being in Sicily helps Michael to understand his parent's generation better and also more determined than ever to get the family legitimate because he feels Sicily is a land populated by ghosts.