Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Kopiatze is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons, as well as all non-Exotic Light armor and Light shields.

Maneuvers: A Kopiatze begins their career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers, chosen from the Broken Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?122533-The-Broken-Blade-%283-5-ToB-Discipline%29-PEACH) and God Slash (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1420.msg12667#msg12667) Disciplines, as well as from one other Discipline of their choice.

Once they know a maneuver, a Kopiatze must ready it before they can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver initiated by a Kopiatze is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in the maneuver's description. A Kopiatze's maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and they do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they initiate one.

A Kopiatze learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the above table, ignoring the numbers in square brackets. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Kopiatze level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), a Kopiatze can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one they already know. In effect, they lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. They can choose a new maneuver of any level they likes, as long as they observe the restriction on the highest-level maneuvers they can learn; they need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level.

Maneuvers readied: A Kopiatze can ready all three of their maneuvers known at 1st level, and as they advance in level and learn more maneuvers, they may ready more (again, ignoring the numbers in square brackets), but they must still choose which maneuvers to ready. A Kopiatze readies their maneuvers by meditating and exercising for five minutes. Once readied, their maneuvers remain readied until they choose to meditate again and change them.

A Kopiatze begins an encounter with all their maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times they might have already used them since they chose them. When they initiate a maneuver, they expend it for the current encounter, so each of their maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless they recover them, described below).

A Kopiatze can recover a single expended maneuver as a Swift action. They can't use a maneuver in the same round that they recover it, nor can they recover a maneuver in the same round they expended it.

Stances known: A Kopiatze begins play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance. At 4th, 10th, and 16th level, they may choose an additional stance. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and they do not have to ready them. All the stances they know are available to them at all times, and they can change the stance they are currently using as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. Unlike with maneuvers, they cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of ones they already know.

Martial Polymath (Ex): A Kopiatze doesn't only depend on their own training; they have the uncanny ability to replicate the training of their friends and enemies.

Whenever a Kopiatze successfully identifies a maneuver with a Martial Lore check that they do not possess as a Maneuver Known, they may add it to their Maneuvers Known as a Stolen Maneuver. Alternatively, a Kopiatze who reads a Martial Script may add the Maneuver contained within to their Maneuvers Known as a Stolen Maneuver; doing so does not expend the Martial Script.

A Kopiatze may have a maximum of three Stolen Maneuvers; this maximum increases by one at 4th level and every two levels thereafter. If a Kopiatze wishes to add an additional Stolen Maneuver to their Maneuvers Known but have already reached their maximum, they may forget one of their Stolen Maneuvers to open up room. A Kopiatze may not possess a Stolen Maneuver whose level is greater than the highest level of Maneuver they could learn normally.

A Kopiatze may not Ready a Stolen Maneuver in their normal Maneuver Readied slots; instead, they gain a single additional Maneuver Readied slot which may only be used to Ready a Stolen Maneuver. At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter, they may ready an additional Stolen Maneuver. Whenever a Kopiatze recovers a Maneuver, they may also either ready a Stolen Maneuver or swap which of two Stolen Maneuvers are readied. Whenever they initiate a Stolen Maneuver, they also remove it from their Maneuvers Known.

At 3rd level, a Kopiatze may use Martial Lore to identify what Martial Stance a creature is in, using the same DC as a manuever of the same level. Doing so is a free action that cannot be reattempted until that creature leaves that Stance. If they are successful and they do not possess that Stance as a Stance Known, they may add that Stance to their Stances Known as a Stolen Stance. Initially, a Kopiatze may only know one Stolen Stance; however, they may know one additional Stolen Stance at 11th level and every eight levels thereafter.

A Kopiatze may enter a Stolen Stance normally; however, they immediately remove it from their Stances Known. A Kopiatze may not possess a Stolen Stance whose level is greater than the highest level of Maneuver they could learn normally.

At 7th level, a Kopiatze adds their Intelligence modifier to their AC and all of their Saves as a Perfection bonus; this bonus only applies against Maneuvers and actions that directly receive a bonus from a Maneuver or Stance.

At 11th level, a Kopiatze who initiates a Stolen Maneuver may choose to remove one of their other Stolen Maneuvers from their Maneuvers Known instead of the maneuver that they initiated. Similarly, whenever they leave a Stolen Stance, they may choose to remove one of their other Stolen Stances from their Stances Known instead of the stance they left.

At 15th level, a Kopiatze who initiates a Stolen Maneuver may use the 11th level version of this class feature to permanently forget one of their normal Maneuvers Known; doing so permanently adds the Stolen Maneuver they just initiated to their list of Maneuvers Known. They may not do so if it would lead to them not qualifying for one of their other Maneuvers.

Peerless Eye (Ex): If there was one word to summarize Kopiatze, it would be "analytical". If there was another word to summarize them, it would be too rude to write here.

A Kopiatze may use their Intelligence modifier in place of their Wisdom modifier for the purposes of Sense Motive checks. In addition, they may use Sense Motive to Assess An Opponent as a Move action; if they succeed, that creature takes a penalty to their attack rolls against the Kopiatze for the remainder of the encounter equal to the Kopiatze's Intelligence modifier.

At 4th level, a Kopiatze may make a Sense Motive check to Assess An Opponent as a Swift action, and may narrow down the result of that check to one category if they succeed on the check by 5, rather than 10. Finally, they learn Deep Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?171328-40-Skill-Tricks!-peach) even (and especially) if they do not meet the prerequisites.

At 8th level, a Kopiatze gains Combat IntuitionCAd as a bonus feat; whenever they gain the attack bonus from that feat against a creature they have previously Assessed this encounter, the bonus increases to equal their Intelligence modifier. Finally, the amount they must exceed a Sense Motive check by to use Deep Analysis is only 5, rather than 10.

At 12th level, a Kopiatze may Take 10 on Sense Motive checks even when hurried or threatened, and may use Deep Analysis on any successful Sense Motive check made to get a Hunch about someone, regardless of how much they succeeded by. Finally, any creature attempting to deceive them takes a penalty to their Bluff and Disguise checks equal to the Kopiatze's Intelligence modifier.

At 16th level, the Kopiatze always applies the benefits of Deep Analysis to any applicable Sense Motive check they make, without requiring them to spend an Immediate action. If they succeed on such a Sense Motive check by 10, they may read that creature's surface thoughts (as per the Epic use (http://dndsrd.net/epicSkills.html#sense-motive) of the Sense Motive skill.) Finally, the Kopiatze adds their Intelligence modifier as a Perfection bonus to their Will Saves; they may apply this bonus to any Reflex saves provoked by a creature they have successfully Assessed within this encounter.

At 20th level, a Kopiatze who succeeds on a Sense Motive check to receive a hunch about a creature may read a creature's surface thoughts, regardless of how much they exceeded the check by. Additionally, the character whose thoughts are being read need only be audible, visible, or in physical contact with the Kopiatze; they only need to get a successful Sense Motive check.

Finally, a Kopiatze is always considered to be Intimate with a creature for the purposes of the Disguise skill, and treats any lies that a creature tries to tell them as if they were two steps less believable (to a maximum bonus of +20).

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a Kopiatze may react to danger before their senses truly register the threat. They retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still lose their Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a Kopiatze already has Uncanny Dodge from a different class they automatically gain Improved Uncanny Dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Kopiatze of 6th level or higher can no longer be flanked; they can react to opponents on opposite sides of them as easily as they can react to a single attacker. See the barbarian class feature (PH 26) for more information.

Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a Kopiatze can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if they are wearing light armor or no armor. If they are helpless, they do not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Evasion (Ex): From 17th level on, a Kopiatze gains the benefit of Improved Evasion. They still take no damage if they make a successful Reflex save against an attack, and even if they fail the Reflex save, they take only half damage from the attack. If they are helpless, they do not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Amechra

2015-08-28, 11:56 PM

This... escalated quickly.

The dead levels aren't really dead, exactly - you are getting an extra Stolen Maneuver, Maneuver Known, Stolen Stance, or Stance Known at each one.

Martial Script Fix: Martial Script was sadly written with only the three official Martial Adepts in mind. As such, it kinda can't be used by any homebrew Martial Adept that doesn't get it as a bonus feat. So I would strongly suggest changing the prerequisite to "One level in a martial initiating class, knowledge of at least one Supernatural Maneuver."

Infinite Folio
An Infinite Folio is a wonderful tool for organizing Martial Scripts.
Description: This thin book is small enough to slip into a large pocket; the cover is usually traditionally left blank (though some creators have gone with something slightly more ornate). The inside of the book is empty; all of the pages have been systematically torn out. If a Martial Script is placed between the covers of an Infinite Folio that isn't currently full, it is reorganized and attached to the spine of the book as a vellum page.
Activation: You flip through the book until you find the appropriate page. Flipping through an Infinite Folio is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you have at least a +1 base attack bonus, you can flip through the Infinite Folio as part of a move action, similar to drawing a weapon. If a Martial Script is expended while in page form, the page disappears in puff of white smoke.
Effect: The Infinite Folio holds up to 50 Martial Scripts and serves as a convenient carrying case for small collections of such scripts. Removing a Martial Script from the Folio merely requires that you tear that page from the book, causing it to revert to scroll form.
Aura/Caster Level: Moderate conjuration. CL 9th.
Construction: Requires Craft Wondrous Item, Scribe Martial Script, 1,400 gp, 112 XP, 3 days.
Weight: 3 lb.
Price: 2,800 gp.

nonsi

2015-08-29, 01:53 AM

.
It's no secret that I don't do ToB, but if I did, there's only one thing I'd change in this class - I'd nix the clause about removing a stolen maneuver from the known maneuvers list after initiating it.

Amechra

2015-08-29, 04:08 PM

.
It's no secret that I don't do ToB, but if I did, there's only one thing I'd change in this class - I'd nix the clause about removing a stolen maneuver from the known maneuvers list after initiating it.

Would you like to elaborate? I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

My thought process started with a Martial Spellthief, and then morphed into the Kopiatze. I have them losing Stolen Maneuvers after initiating them as a nod to the Spellthief's "steal it, fire it, forget it" method of using stolen spells.

I also did it to create an acceptably wide optimization range; at the floor, they are Warblades with slightly weaker initiating (with a worse recovery method), but with stronger class features to compensate. At the ceiling, you have a collection of Martial Scripts that you can use to trick out your payload before every fight, allowing you to tailor what maneuvers you "know" to the situation at hand. At higher levels, you can swap out your entire set of Maneuvers Known over the course of a fight or two, as an added bonus.

There is a specific reason I'm wary of letting them keep the stuff they steal permanently. As it stands, they can copy any maneuver, including maneuvers and stances unique to PrCs or stuff like the Arcane Swordsage. And a lot of those are designed to be stronger than equal-level maneuvers.

Still, if you have an alternate idea, I'd be glad to hear it.

Are there any other parts of the class you would like to comment about? I can only improve through feedback, after all.

nonsi

2015-08-29, 07:39 PM

Would you like to elaborate? I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

My thought process started with a Martial Spellthief, and then morphed into the Kopiatze. I have them losing Stolen Maneuvers after initiating them as a nod to the Spellthief's "steal it, fire it, forget it" method of using stolen spells.

I also did it to create an acceptably wide optimization range; at the floor, they are Warblades with slightly weaker initiating (with a worse recovery method), but with stronger class features to compensate. At the ceiling, you have a collection of Martial Scripts that you can use to trick out your payload before every fight, allowing you to tailor what maneuvers you "know" to the situation at hand. At higher levels, you can swap out your entire set of Maneuvers Known over the course of a fight or two, as an added bonus.

There is a specific reason I'm wary of letting them keep the stuff they steal permanently. As it stands, they can copy any maneuver, including maneuvers and stances unique to PrCs or stuff like the Arcane Swordsage. And a lot of those are designed to be stronger than equal-level maneuvers.

Still, if you have an alternate idea, I'd be glad to hear it.

Are there any other parts of the class you would like to comment about? I can only improve through feedback, after all.

According to what you're describing here (I'll take your word for it, because it's your class and I only now got back to my home PC), This is much worse than how I'd visioned this class.
20 levels are a lot of time for accumulating Martial Scripts. If you fire and forget, than at mid-high levels, you'd probably have a lot of maneuvering space (pun not intended) through access to tons of maneuvers via Martial Scripts.
Yes, not forgetting means you have more solid foundations, but it also gives you less room for abuse. It's also a lot more predictable for the DM to work with and plan ahead.

The second reason why I find my approach more appropriate is the make-sense angle.
While you could explain losing a stolen spell by only harnessing and releasing its energy, a maneuver is something you actually execute - with both muscle and consciousness. Why would practicing it make you forget it is beyond my rationale.

Amechra

2015-08-29, 11:13 PM

The second reason why I find my approach more appropriate is the make-sense angle.
While you could explain losing a stolen spell by only harnessing and releasing its energy, a maneuver is something you actually execute - with both muscle and consciousness. Why would practicing it make you forget it is beyond my rationale.

Ever cram for an exam? It's like that. (I know that's an unsatisfactory answer - just roll with it.)

A less flip answer is that, unlike a maneuver they learn normally, a Stolen Maneuver is learned a specific way. You're copying the guy who used it down to the muscle twitches and what opening was used to drive the attack home.

It's less that you forget it... and more that the required conditions for using your stolen knowledge are so specific that you'll never quite see them again.

On a mechanic side... if I removed the "initiating a maneuver removes it from memory", they can still shuffle through Stolen Maneuvers (thanks to the clause that lets you forget a Stolen Maneuver to learn a new one if you're already full). So your change wouldn't change the build-up or make the class more predictable for the DM*.

As it stands, one reason for forgetting Stolen Maneuvers serves as a way to make Stolen Maneuvers 1/encounter at best if you optimize, at least until the levels where everyone becomes crazy-cakes.

* Not that that's that much of a problem†. Tome of Battle maneuvers are really light on stuff that needs to be worked around in a fight. It's not like spellcasting where you can pick up single spells that invalidate whole classes of combat.

The only exceptions are stuff like ToBhou or Xefas' old Disciplines, where the aim is a much higher level of power. But, then again, any DM that doesn't want to deal with that just... doesn't allow those Disciplines in the game.

† That's some sentence right there. God, I love English grammar.

Still, you have given me some fruit for thought. I need to come up with some flavor that makes sense to people that aren't me - as is always the case.

Does everything else look good to you? (More specifically, how does Peerless Eye look to you?)

nonsi

2015-08-30, 12:51 AM

A less flip answer is that, unlike a maneuver they learn normally, a Stolen Maneuver is learned a specific way. You're copying the guy who used it down to the muscle twitches and what opening was used to drive the attack home.

It's less that you forget it... and more that the required conditions for using your stolen knowledge are so specific that you'll never quite see them again.

Ok, but… that situation doesn't exist anymore (as you said: "so specific that you'll never quite see them again"), so I don't see any relevancy for those "muscle twitches and what opening was used to drive the attack home" anymore.

On a mechanic side... if I removed the "initiating a maneuver removes it from memory", they can still shuffle through Stolen Maneuvers (thanks to the clause that lets you forget a Stolen Maneuver to learn a new one if you're already full). So your change wouldn't change the build-up or make the class more predictable for the DM*.

It does, because with my method, the exchange of powers is much slower (and as DM, you have control over what maneuvers the character encounters anyway). It also requires far less bookkeeping.

As it stands, one reason for forgetting Stolen Maneuvers serves as a way to make Stolen Maneuvers 1/encounter at best if you optimize, at least until the levels where everyone becomes crazy-cakes.

So, there's an upside and a downside.
As a player, even if I could squeeze a bit more from your approach (and I believe I could, even restricted to 1/encounter per maneuver), I'd prefer mine for simplicity and being able to control my character build for the long run.

* Not that that's that much of a problem†. Tome of Battle maneuvers are really light on stuff that needs to be worked around in a fight. It's not like spellcasting where you can pick up single spells that invalidate whole classes of combat.

That reasoning I can definitely accept – but it wouldn't change my personal preference (or either side of the gaming table).

Amechra

2015-08-30, 01:10 PM

The muscle twitch thing was just a touch of inspiration from Rhiannon (http://sidheshadow.tripod.com/ftp/rhiannon.pdf). Just wanted to mention that.

And I'm legitimately sorry, but I can't see why your method would slow down maneuver swap out at all. There's no action to forget a Stolen Maneuver; in other words...

I also don't really see why your method would allow for long-term build control - unless your build depends heavily on getting specific neat maneuvers from enemies. If you get in a fight and steal a maneuver you really like, drop a line to the DM that you'd rather like to get that Maneuver as a Martial Script.

Or you can take the Scribe Martial Script feat†, write the maneuver in question down, and add it to your collection. It is (temporarily) one of your Maneuvers Known, after all. Actually, that's a better metaphor for why you forget Stolen Maneuvers; your muscle memories have short-term memory loss. If you want to add stuff more permanently, you'll have to write it down.

On a more mechanical side, look at it like this: you are a Wizard with spell mastery (Maneuvers Known). If you want to prepare different spells, you need to crack open your spell-book‡ (your collection of Martial Scripts). However, you took a wacky feat that lets you prepare spells you can identify with Spellcraft (Stolen Maneuvers). In this case, the extra Maneuvers Known you've stolen are more like prepped spell slots than spells known, if that makes sense.

† Actually, I need to write a fix for the feat - whoever wrote it had the brilliant idea that Scribe Martial Script should require you to be a Crusader or a Swordsage. I'll shove that in the 2nd post.

‡ Part of me wants to convert the Infinite Scrollcase from Eberron so that it'll work with Martial Scripts.

Anyway, I don't see this getting anywhere in a hurry (I might be misunderstanding your position, or something). Can I file a request to hear something about Peerless Eye?

OK, for anyone interested, the sequence for Martial Polymath used to go:

1. Steal Maneuvers!
3. Steal Stances!
7. Instead of getting a copy of a maneuver, you could choose to learn a unique Counter that would "counterspell" that maneuver.
11. You could knock people out of identified stances.
15. The current 11th level class feature.

I scrapped the original 7th level class feature because it was too strong; it strongly incentivized you to leave a Stolen Maneuvers Readied slot open so that you could cancel whatever maneuver your opponent was using on you (Or your buddy. Or themselves.) as an Immediate action. Not the playstyle I envisioned, so I changed it.

On the other hand, I had forgotten that my proposed 11th level class feature is actually similar but slightly weaker than a Broken Blade Strike that you can get at that exact same level. So I swapped it for the 15th level class feature, and wrote a new 15th level class feature.

Amechra

2015-08-30, 01:37 PM

A slight update to the 2nd post - I added a fix to the Scribe Martial Script feat, as well as a magic item (the Infinite Folio).

nonsi

2015-09-05, 12:48 PM

…
Or you can take the Scribe Martial Script feat†, write the maneuver in question down, and add it to your collection. It is (temporarily) one of your Maneuvers Known, after all. Actually, that's a better metaphor for why you forget Stolen Maneuvers; your muscle memories have short-term memory loss. If you want to add stuff more permanently, you'll have to write it down.

On a more mechanical side, look at it like this: you are a Wizard with spell mastery (Maneuvers Known). If you want to prepare different spells, you need to crack open your spell-book‡ (your collection of Martial Scripts). However, you took a wacky feat that lets you prepare spells you can identify with Spellcraft (Stolen Maneuvers). In this case, the extra Maneuvers Known you've stolen are more like prepped spell slots than spells known, if that makes sense.

If you're trying to turn to Vancian spellcasting to make a point with me then I'm sorry to say that you're barking at the wrong tree.
I've yet to meet anyone that more fiercely opposes the Vancian approach or any other fire-and-forget approach (for many reasons which I detailed in the past). I have since BECMI, and haven't wavered a millimeter.

And I'm legitimately sorry, but I can't see why your method would slow down maneuver swap out at all. There's no action to forget a Stolen Maneuver; in other words...

I also don't really see why your method would allow for long-term build control - unless your build depends heavily on getting specific neat maneuvers from enemies. If you get in a fight and steal a maneuver you really like, drop a line to the DM that you'd rather like to get that Maneuver as a Martial Script.

My idea was that there is no "Forget" button.
You fill your quota until you're done, and may swap once at each level where you don't get floating slots.
Now that I think of it, it could be quite a bummer on the player's side to drop from swapping your entire repertoire several times per game session to once per 2 levels.
For fairness' sake, you could allow a single swap of either maneuver or stance per game session, or every time the character spends 8 hours of training within 24 hours of witnessing a maneuver (I personally prefer the latter).

Can I file a request to hear something about Peerless Eye?

15th level ability is really nice, but I didn't quite catch what the limiting factor is.

Amechra

2015-09-05, 02:00 PM

If you're trying to turn to Vancian spellcasting to make a point with me then I'm sorry to say that you're barking at the wrong tree.
I've yet to meet anyone that more fiercely opposes the Vancian approach or any other fire-and-forget approach (for many reasons which I detailed in the past). I have since BECMI, and haven't wavered a millimeter.

That was an example by analogy. Besides, a true Vancian system would be more like Binding with an ability to expend the vestige for MASSIVE PRIZES!

My idea was that there is no "Forget" button.
You fill your quota until you're done, and may swap once at each level where you don't get floating slots.
Now that I think of it, it could be quite a bummer on the player's side to drop from swapping your entire repertoire several times per game session to once per 2 levels.
For fairness' sake, you could allow a single swap of either maneuver or stance per game session, or every time the character spends 8 hours of training within 24 hours of witnessing a maneuver (I personally prefer the latter).

Again, I don't see any benefits for doing this.

Look, as you've said - you hate fire-and-forget. This entire class feature is built around fire-and-forget. I doubt we're going to come to an agreement here.

15th level ability is really nice, but I didn't quite catch what the limiting factor is.

I assume you mean the 16th level class feature? Well...

1. Assessing an Opponent requires that your Sense Motive check beats your opponent's Bluff check.
2. You can't reassess a creature - so if you failed the first time around, you don't get to try again.