They are useless because if I am an oppressive ogre, they compete with the Militarists; but if I am benevolent, they compete with the Intellectuals.

As I mentioned in another thread -- they are the pseudo - Black Shirts ; and have a doubtful place in gameplay.

They are just a bunch of brainwashed idiots

(07-05-2011, 09:00 PM)Tropije Wrote: Religious.. But they are so much fun to anger.. I love building islands with no chuch then seeing how high i can get the overall happiness. I think 65 is my highest of of yet.

I say communists. I 'm a capitalist so were naturaly enemies. I also like freedom and advancement so again, we're enemies. In the game I got in to power from a capitalist revolution and the still kinda like me. Says somthing about Tropican Communists.
PS Before I got good at the game the USSR kept on trying to invade. They mostly did.

(08-05-2011, 01:10 AM)Presidente Harry Wrote: Before I got good at the game the USSR kept on trying to invade. They mostly did.

I always had that problem. I eventually fixed it by tweaking my Presidente traits so that the USA adores me from day one. Then, I build the diplomacy building and become allies with them before my capitalist ways slide the USSR to zero. I never get invaded and I get free money!

Those freakin' Environmentalists. Stupid hippies! They're one of the few groups with the audacity to challenge me, PRESIDENTE, when I go out to make money and exploit nature with my mines of super-awesomeness! Also, how exactly can I get my Dubya on when they start messing with my oil?

Without question, the Environmentalists are the worst faction because they physically block mines and actually stop money from coming in! Stopping my income is a capital crime if you're a hippy!
My answer to environmental blockades are simple: I shoot them.

I always end up with Environmentalists' support at zero. It's fun to have them picked off when they become Rebels, and since I always end up liking my armies super-sized, it's usually one Rebel against twenty soldiers. If I am lucky enough to stay out of debt for several years, I also ban their faction.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Not only is that poll a year and a half old, but it included three groups which are not factions:

The U.S.

The U.S.S.R.

The Tourists

Quote:While not a legitimate faction per se, I would consider [tourists] a faction for two reasons. All tourists have specific needs and desires that must be catered to, and all tourists will rate your island's performance. Effectively making them a faction.

Actually that inclusion of non-faction groups effectively made the poll about something other than factions.

The Capitalist faction is actually a pseudo-representative of the U.S. ; a puppet if you like that term better.

The Communist faction is actually a pseudo-representative of the U.S.S.R. ; a puppet if you like that term better.

So the first poll was skewed by the inclusion of non-factions and time has passed. So what is wrong with a serious update?

Based on my experience with T1 and reading the reports of T3 players, I'm sorry but I do not understand why the Religious Faction seems to be so despised by the players -- described as religious nuts!

Yes, it is the only faction directly linked with a single metered "need" [factor if you wish]. But is the annoyance centered on gameplay in the game-world? Or is it based on the player's real-world, personal attitudes about religion -- perhaps something that looks centered on a "clerical class?"

There is no single political faction that focuses on FOOD need [factor] - indeed it seems almost forgotten that the entire population is under half-rations until El Presidente decrees a full ration. The reports of [T3] gameplay indicate that players are somewhat mystified about the food supply and regularly lose citizens to starvation without knowing why or perhaps even how many. So does there need to be a new "Give Us Food" political faction? Or do the food related demands of the other factions (such as Communists or Religious) need to be emphasized?

Both the Communist and Capitalist political factions attend to the HOUSING/(rest) need, but with different emphasis on quality. But El Presidente loves to monitor to the exact $, the return he can extract in rents. Micro-management gameplay at its best (well linked with pay schedules).

The ENTERTAINMENT & HEATH CARE needs are not attended to by the political factions except in a minor way because they are both a financial concern of El Presidente. He loves to monitor the return he can extract from the fees charged for the cheap entertainment facilities he provides. The life span and vital statistics of the citizens are so obscure that El Presente has no idea of how much he loses in economic production by not providing health services. Again both the Communist and Capitalist political factions make muted comments on these needs. Perhaps even the Intellectual political faction might chime in on health care, but who would notice them?

My point is that the "religious need" exists in the game world whether or not the player believes it should. Similar to the "real" world, El Presidente can deny the need or he can subvert and control it. Should it be a major annoyance or yet another puppet on the string?

Military.. cant shoot them, they shoot back, and decent wages, a base or 2 on the far side of the island with a garage and caberett they are good to go.

communisit.. everyone needs houses, put everyone in tenements if you want and really not an issue, and without decent health care everyone dies, so its really in your best interest to please them

capitalists, as long as you are in the + money, they are never a bother..

eco's, I like a polution free island so they are pleased just with my play style

Loyalist, ill admit they are fairly annoying with wanting all the statues, but as far as i can tell, just a single childhood musem and great entertianment and good wages tend to keep these guys atleast happy enough not to protest

nationalist.. Im almost always tropico first so these guys never say a peep.. and if i really need people they dont bother me much for a shipload or 2 of immigrants..

Intelectuals, I honestly never seen then complain about anything other than if i didnt have a highschool about 20 years in. other than that they do nothing to effect my game style..

there is no need for religion in tropico.. Only el presidente's rule, and he says, thou shall only worship me... and you do that by making me money ! Try it some time, Dont build churches and shoot the ones that protest.. it doesnt take long till noone cares as long as you have great entertainment.

they are the hardest to please over all because all that money you spend gives you zero return other than happiness, which you can get in other ways. Ive never run the numbers, but if your up around 60-70 without a church, I really cant see your productivity being that much more on a 1200 person island, especially when that cost to please them at that point is ohh atleast 100-200k+ a ton of salery per year. And thats if you had 3 banks to reduce cost, if not your more likely looking at 300k+.. But skipping banks to build catherdreals early is silly, and later is just not really needed. by the time money is rolling in 20-30 years down the road and you have a huge island, the relgious dont even make a peep, even without a single church. Its almost as if i convert them to worship the caberet girls..

to put it simply, Its entirely more cost effective to raise happiness spending on gourmet restraunts/caberets/casino's, with a smattering of tv/radio.. and then all those male collage workers, 3 banks is way better than 3 catherdrals. In the end Same cost, same space, only your making loads of money off what you built vrs having your cost of building maintance and wages get a huge bounce with lots less return.

for me, the only reason to build a church is early game if you want to keep your island rebel free. but if you dont mind rebels and wanna build a small military to fight them its much easier in the end. I typically build a single church just to ward off early rebels as i like to make people happy, and its fun to try to do that skipping religious faction as they are typically a large faction. Its about challenge.

In the end they really arnt that hard to please though, a bunch of churches in good locations, pluss a catherdral in a nice spot for the toursist to site see and all should be good. add in a newspaper set to religious and you can easily have them at 100, which can cover up your poor wages, or lack of entertianment.

In some ways they are also the least annoying.. get to 100, and you can really screw um up and down.. but thats what is fun about the game, so many ways of doing things, and not one way is right.. well as long as it keeps you in office

Then just outlaw religious but make sure you have a strong army (with installed by KGB rise to power you won't need highschools for them) because up to half of the supporters may become rebels so do it quickly before their membership increases-or make your people cowards from early age ( school work mode )

I don't wish to defend the Religious Faction. I also have to warn that my comment is based on T1 experience. I suppose that T3 uses the same or similar logic in its game engine since it is reported to be following the standard of the "franchise."

The citizens have three metered needs which are not essential to life:

Religion

Entertainment

Health Care

It seems that players assume that "happiness" is the only function associated with providing the staffed buildings where citizens may "recharge" the three needs meters.

I seems to me that a prime directive for El Presidente is to keep his population ON THE JOB as long as possible. I suspect the original developers were not such dumb-asses that they did not guess that players would skip providing such "expensive use-less-ness" for the citizens if they (the players) were not punished. Unfortunately, they did not hang out a flashing sign to tell the player that not providing the buildings would not KILL the people but WITHOUT THEM, RECHARGING THE "NEEDS METERS" WOULD GO TO A DEFAULT ROUTINE WHICH WOULD SCREW-OVER THE CITIZEN'S PRODUCTIVITY. If players watch the people and wonder why the construction laborers are not prompt on the job, do they ever check the people's thoughts?

The defaults are simple (thoughts paraphrased):

Religion: I can't find a church, so I'll go read my bible by myself for god knows how long

Entertainment: I can't find a place to relax, so I will just go on a very long "walk about"

Health Care: I can't visit a doctor, so I'll eat VooDoo rocks and die a year sooner

Has T3 adjusted this concept so much that the players can't notice that citizens miss a lot more of work without the associated buildings than they do going to the buildings?

I play t1 basically the same way. I build only one church and half the time it only has one worker in it cause i swear noone ever wants to work there no matter how many times i fire them, or how much i offer.. It can be the highest paying highshool job on the island and still they dont wanna work there. I even pick people living in the houses next door and they will go work as construction workers half way across the island than be a priest.

and health care is completly essential to life.. when people die click on them and cause of death many times is lack of health care. Outside the fact that with good healthcare people live 5 years longer. You even get messages like 5 people died last year due to lack of heatlh care. to me health care and food are 2 of the prime needs to fill.

I never find myself in dire straits.. most of the time i have plenty of money and buildings are being errected in a timey fasion. If not i just build more construction offices, or get more teamsters.

If i find lazy workers that dont like to show up, or someone that doesnt want to come back for his long walk, i typically fire um. thats a very easy way to solve the problem. Though you can always shoot them or toss um in prison too.

My play style cant be all bad.. I can win senairos, even the T1 ones, and in t3, i can typically get overall happiness up to 65-70%,, so i must be doing something right
.

replaying more T1 campians, stuck on one where i have to earn 100k in swiss bank and havent come close for the life of me. for some reason no workers every want to goto collage, even if the job is +20 dollars more than anything.. so i go back to T3 and decide to play the freedom campain trying something completly different.

I delayed housing, everyone in shacks, no dumps, mining, farms, everything is just bright red after even a few years. having to unlock the different buildings i had no GOV buildings. when i got hit with...

ECO PROTEST ! Newest most hated..

Religious are only annoying, they complain about not enough churches but other than that most of the people are pretty happy. But this eco protest, shut down my bauxite mine for like 5+ years, Lost a lotta money on it working. But the best part, Or worst on how you looked at it was the spawn of rebels that eco protest brought.

I lost another mine, farms and something else before i got up enough dumps, and reduced polution enough to kill the protest, and stop the rebels,, and finally enough soldiers that the attack was squished when they got up the guts to hit the palace.

i've actually never really experianced anything like this before outside of one mission it lasted like all of a year. But over all it was a pretty interesting twist to experiance..

So now ill look at my religious protesters from now on with a softer heart.. Ill just send um to prison vrs military relief.. Maybe next time ill even build 2 churches,

(11-05-2011, 08:28 PM)Tropije Wrote: ... its not really any different than T1.

I play t1 basically the same way. I build only one church and half the time it only has one worker in it cause I swear no one ever wants to work there no matter ...

and health care is completly essential to life - when people die click on them and cause of death many times is lack of health care. Outside the fact that with good healthcare people live 5 years longer. ...

My comments are about T1 only.

To get Priests employed in your Church(es), you really need a High School set to the Parochial option. The options have a real effect on the jobs people prefer. You should consider the "General" option to mean "Liberal" or "Intellectual" rather than generic\everything.

The cause of death other than starvation (or from a disaster or being shot - decree \ battle) is entirely random. The 'click on' result means nothing specific. People live five years longer ONLY if they use a building set to the Gerontology option. People are created with their death date preset. Each time they go through the default because no building is available, they lose a year up to five years total. Each time they use a building with the Gerontology option, they gain a year up to five years total.

I see from Tropi'je's reply that I did not make myself clear.

Yes, in T1 prolonged lack of food will kill a citizen. So if you find a body and the click tells you starvation (or "was shot") - that is accurate. But if you find a body and the click tells you "died of lack of health care" - that means nothing because the causes are simply randomized for verisimilitude. It seems random event disasters do not leave bodies, but rather just a statistical report. The Almanac sadly reports no detail on deaths, just an annual total.

Another player and I ran tests (which we reported on the defunct Cafe Forum) that showed no immediate difference in the mortality rate between no health care & having health care. Citizens simply die five years sooner without health care.

Now it may well be that T3 did a major overhaul of the algorithm which determines citizen life spans. It could involve a more immediate reaction to no health care rather than simply a reduction of the predetermined death date. I have not seen any report of tests which substantiate such a change. I opine that most players have a style of gameplay which revolves around gross statistics of maximum populations with out much concern about individuals. So such an inquiry is of little to no concern.

Religious faction is really annoying- I saw a priest visit a nightclub yet he keeps telling other people not to do it...nobody heard from that priest again.And what else ? Oh,yes ! They claim they are against gay marriages but I saw a bishop married to a teamster.

To get Priests employed in your Church(es), you really need a High School set to the Parochial option. The options have a real effect on the jobs people prefer. You should consider the "General" option to mean "Liberal" or "Intellectual" rather than generic\everything.

The cause of death other than starvation (or from a disaster) is entirely random. The 'click on' result means nothing specific. People live five years longer ONLY if they use a building set to the Gerontology option. People are created with their death date preset. Each time they go through the default because no building is available, they lose a year up to five years total. Each time they use a building with the Gerontology option, they gain a year up to five years total.

Yea, T1 and T3 are different here.. if your people starve in T3, they die. Ive seen 10-15 people die in a single year if things get bad. aka set to food for the people with not enough food. its actually a good way to thin the herd and people will die earlier with out health care.

I noticed exactly what you where talking about though in t1, when they would keep cycling through needs that dont get filled. again T3 is different here, they just move on to the next. though i think they will hit it twice from time to time. in T1 if you dont fill something, they keep trying to fill it. I saw some people with a 6 entries of just wandering around and trying to fill needs, t3, they give up and go back to work.

Any thoughts on how to get people working in banks? i replayed the senario 5 times this week. (new havana) I built 3 banks, a highschool and collage by 1960, I litterly spent the next 15 years firing people to get um to goto school, or firing people with highschool educations to get um to collage. my banks didnt get fully staffed for almost 25 years of me trying. Finally, in 1990 my banks had full workers, though every time i checked um someone would of died but at that point i finally had some extra professors, but it was really rediculous. If was by far the highest paying job on the island, (outside of professors) i could fire someone 15 times and all they did was bounce around non educated jobs, Not even going into a church for example. I should of build a prison cause of how much they annoyed me.

(09-05-2011, 06:52 PM)CoconutKid Wrote: I'm sorry but I do not understand why the Religious Faction seems to be so despised by the players -- described as religious nuts!

Yes, it is the only faction directly linked with a single metered need. But is the annoyance centered on gameplay in the game-world? Or is it based on the player's real-world, personal attitudes about religion -- perhaps something that looks centered on a "clerical class?"

There is no single political faction that focuses on FOOD need - indeed it seems almost forgotten that the entire population is under half-rations until El Presidente decrees a full ration. The reports of gameplay indicate that players are somewhat mystified about the food supply and regularly lose citizens to starvation without knowing why or perhaps even how many. So does there need to be a new "Give Us Food" political faction?

Both the Communist and Capitalist political factions attend to the HOUSING/(rest) need, but with different emphasis on quality. But El Presidente loves to monitor to the exact $, the return he can extract in rents. Micro-management gameplay at its best (well linked with pay schedules).

The ENTERTAINMENT & HEATH CARE needs are not attended to by the political factions except in a minor way because they are both a financial concern of El Presidente. He loves to monitor the return he can extract from the fees charged for the cheap entertainment facilities he provides. The life span and vital statistics of the citizens are so obscure that El Presente has no idea of how much he loses in economic production by not providing health services. Again both the Communist and Capitalist political factions make muted comments on these needs. Perhaps even the Intellectual political faction might chime in on health care, but who would notice them?

My point is that the "religious need" exists in the game world whether or not the player believes it should. Similar to the "real" world, El Presidente can deny the need or he can subvert and control it. Should it be a major annoyance or yet another puppet on the string?

First reason I find them annoying:

(12-05-2011, 04:19 PM)Che Guevara Wrote: Religious faction is really annoying- I saw a priest visit a nightclub yet he keeps telling other people not to do it...nobody heard from that priest again.And what else ? Oh,yes ! They claim they are against gay marriages but I saw a bishop married to a teamster.

And second one: old fashioned ( they must think they live in middle ages )

Contraception ban- give me a break. They seem not to give a ( F-word ) about AIDS and overpopulation problem (overpopulation=unemployment )

Third one: Churches and cathedrals are expensive and there are much more important buildings I can spend that money on ( like school ). Sorry if I offended someone but let's face it-education and economy are far more important than religion.

It has nothing to do with my real life beliefs. I am not religious person but I never said 'Let's kill all of them !' nor I organised cross burning. I am a very tolerant person.

But it is different with nationalists: I believe in equality of all nations,races amd religions and think nationalism is one of greatest evils.Remember,nationalism and patriotism are not the same thing.

thanks RJ, ill give some of those tips a try. The game is definatly different. perhaps that was part of my problem, i always had jobs with openings, just hard to build fast like in t3. that open the doors really trucks in the people in that one.

another reason why the relgious bother me is the whole prohibtion thing.. I want another edict..

Drinks on Me !

every citizen that goes to a pup gets a free round on el' presidente, Increase happiness, -religious

every citizen that goes to a pub gets a free round on el' presidente, Increase happiness, -religious

I'm not sure why you need another edict unless you mean << only one free drink per visit >> ; which I think would be quite hard to figure-out.

Doesn't T3 allow you to make Pubs and Nightclubs free which is giving booze away. T1 allowed you to <shift> click to set the fee at all buildings of the same type. Free entertainment works about as good as Mardi Gras.

@ Che Guevara
You don't like the Religious faction because they are:

Hypocritical,

Old Fashioned &

Expensive.

I think they are no more hypocritical than any other faction. That is to say that the way faction supporters act is not monolithically uniform in line with the faction demands. That helps make them "seem" human.

In theory, the game starts with 1950 and runs to about 2000 so citizen attitudes are probably stuck sometime in the middle (early '70s) -- which is quite old-fashioned as compared with today.

Just FYI, thanks a bunch for that advice, I finally beat the mission, and im getting workers going to school better now. Still having issues with the religious working in churches..

I didnt think i was gonna make it, then with about 8 years left i remembered the building permit, i added a newspapper, and a few condo's and a couple other buildings, and then my banks finally came through in 1998..

i worked on beating that mission all week.

the idea for the drinks on me, wouldnt mean a free drink by game mechanics, just called that, something to raise the saticfactions of pubs is all. I supose it would be similar to mardi gras now that i think of it though.

(13-05-2011, 02:15 PM)rj66 Wrote: Religion and Entertainment are desires. They take a walk and try again later. No major productivity loss as the walk period is less than the transport & visitation time. Eventually, they go home and sleep as their satisfaction meter continues to drop.

Health Care and Food are needs. Productivity can suffer but it probably isn't noticeable until after the on-screen notification about deaths/starvation. They will travel quite a distance to get food if markets are not conveniently placed.

Low satisfaction meters can result in them becoming a rebel. Again you would probably notice the rebel activity before a productivity loss. Productivity problems seem subjective to me. Many times I see people giving farm-to-industry ratios 4:1 which make wander how bad are the conditions. 3:1 is possibly OK if you spent money for industry upgrades and/or have a presidential profile that doesn't do well with farming.

Very interesting thoughts and comments. It is somewhat cumbersome, but I realized that I had some glitches in some previous posts -- so I edited them. Please look at them again to help me communicate better.

You make a point about "Productivity problems seem subjective to me." I wonder what you mean, since although productivity is determined by a complex coded matrix -- it nonetheless responds mechanically. It simply has so many variables that the player can't catalog them with only a few "run-throughs" as could happen with such games as the "ANNO" series. There may be key points in the matrix which are never discovered by the players blundering aroundthat is to say "playing without deliberately planned observations to discover the parameters of various gameplay features -- or by the "professional" reviewers and strategy guide writers. Strategy Guide writers have a particularly heavy responsibility to crack the obscurities that the developers inadvertently left. Examples from T1: 1} <<Brain Eating Plague>> Many citizens seemingly wandering around aimlessly rather than "working" VS <<Time-Elapse Metered Factor Default Recharge>> the clues were there but the players simply did not connect the dots. 2} <<Presence "On-The-Job">> The visual clue in the building management window which did not differentate between workers employed and workers actually working led to a wide-spread wrong guess about worker productivity between "outdoor" (animated) work and "indoor" (invisible) work.
Generally, the game balancing factors are set so the "ordinary" player never bumps on the subtler of them. T1 missed the mark by not telling the player more explicitly of the penality default meter recharge and by giving an inadequate visual clue about the effect of employment vs job presence.

About the ten "human" factors which define the citizen's basic character:
Obviously I have no idea how T3 may have changed them from T1. Now it is obvious that T4 is going to make a very great change by introducing a "being a criminal" factor. << Oh! I am going to be so happy as I fill my need to mug those I meet on the street! The police will know me, but will El Presidente be able to see me? My, what a carefree life I live -- completely the opposite of those care worn slaves to ordinary happiness. >>

Meanwhile back in T1, there are ten factors however you wish to call them -- needs, desires or influences. They all result from several algotithms rather than one linear code.

Five of the ten are "metered" on a time basis as representing something requiring a "recharge" on a periodic basis(i.e. the level in the meter does NOT reflect satisfaction\happiness, but rather how much time before a "recharge" [visit to a service building] is necessary); the other five are reactive to the environment for the individual unit.The meters given for them are not time dependent or related to a "recharge" but rather to the individual's satisfaction\happiness with that factor.

Of the five "metered""time exausted"factors, two are life critical: Food & Rest --when a unit is deprived of one or both for long enough it will die(probably a unit will only extremely rarely be observed to die from lack of rest because there are two alternate routines A} unit will build a Shack, even trying to hid to do so & B} sleep "rough," rarely observed). The other three: religion, recreation & health care are optional(i.e. not life threatening)with a "default" routine to recharge the meter. Beware the effects of the recharge.

The effect of the reactive factors can sink the player's happiness score simply because of careless gameplay.

The immediately preceeding material is a "bad on me" situation. I should not run on memory alone when I can refresh it.

The first five factors have two meters: One for time driven recharge and the Other to show current levels of happiness\satisfaction.

I opine that when the unit has to use the "default" routine to recharge a time dependent meter, it causes a significant reduction in the associated satisfaction meter.

It would indeed be interesting to know the T3 algorithm for "making a Rebel" because it has not been discovered for T1. There never seemed to be such a direct connection with "low Satisfaction Meters" since the meters are not about "satisfaction" but a timed recharge not so simply connected with happiness -- let alone the political side of the algorithms.

every citizen that goes to a pub gets a free round on el' presidente, Increase happiness, -religious

I'm not sure why you need another edict unless you mean << only one free drink per visit >> ; which I think would be quite hard to figure-out.

Doesn't T3 allow you to make Pubs and Nightclubs free which is giving booze away. T1 allowed you to <shift> click to set the fee at all buildings of the same type. Free entertainment works about as good as Mardi Gras.

@ Che Guevara
You don't like the Religious faction because they are:

Hypocritical,

Old Fashioned &

Expensive.

I think they are no more hypocritical than any other faction. That is to say that the way faction supporters act is not monolithically uniform in line with the faction demands. That helps make them "seem" human.

In theory, the game starts with 1950 and runs to about 2000 so citizen attitudes are probably stuck sometime in the middle (early '70s) -- which is quite old-fashioned as compared with today.

Satisfying some of the other "happiness factors" is also expensive.

Yes,they are too expensive and someone who is truly religious doesn't need a church or cathedral to 'talk to god'. Still,I will give them a church but they can forget about cathedral.They can just put a cross on the wall and pray-AT HOME