US lawmakers vote to kill Hubble successor

Jul 07, 2011

In a fresh blow to NASA's post-shuttle aspirations, key US lawmakers voted Thursday to kill off funding for the successor to the vastly successful space-gazing Hubble telescope.

The US House of Representatives Appropriations Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, and Science approved by voice vote a yearly spending bill that includes no money for the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST).

The move -- spurred on by belt-tightening in cash-strapped Washington -- still requires the full committee's approval, the full House's approval, the Senate's approval, and ultimately President Barack Obama's signature.

But the relatively mild dissents in the committee, which said in a terse statement this week that the project "is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management," suggests the JWST faces an uphill fight to survive.

The vote struck a blow at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's goals with the space shuttle program about to end after 30 years, and Obama's decision to axe a new plan to return astronauts to the moon.

NASA plans to lay out a budget that "will allow us to launch the Webb telescope in this decade," deputy administrator Lori Garver told reporters at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

"We will be working with Congress to assure them we can manage this program and develop the most amazing space telescope," she said, calling the JWST "a perfect example of reviewing the unknown and reaching for new heights."

In February, NASA Inspector General Paul Martin told lawmakers the JWST had careened billions of dollars over budget.

Initial estimates put the cost of the telescope, designed to help the hunt for knowledge about early galaxies in the universe, at $1.6 billion, but now the total price tag has ballooned to $6.5 billion, he said.

NASA has repeatedly pushed back the telescope's launch date, now set for 2018 at the earliest.

A full scale model of the James Webb Space Telescope sits on the National Mall outside the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC, in 2007. In a fresh blow to NASA's post-shuttle aspirations, key US lawmakers voted Thursday to kill off funding for the successor to the vastly successful space-gazing Hubble telescope.

The project, initially named the Next Generation Space Telescope, is designed to look deeper into space than the Hubble Telescope, and would also venture farther than the Earth-orbiting Hubble, launched in 1990.

Some Democrats on the panel voted against the bill, and lawmakers often wait until the full committee takes up legislation to offer amendments to protect cherished projects.

The vote came one day after Obama, in an unprecedented question and answer session with Twitter users, said NASA needs new technology breakthroughs to revitalize its mission to explore the universe.

"We are still a leader in space exploration, but, frankly, I have been pushing NASA to revamp its vision," Obama said, as the shuttle Atlantis geared up for its final mission.

Obama, who axed NASA's Constellation program that would have sent astronauts back to the moon, said the United States should move beyond the space travel models it used in the Cold War-era race to the moon in the 1960s.

JWST is an international collaboration grouping NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA), and the Canadian Space Agency (CSA).

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"When I became the NASA administrator, (President Obama) charged me with three things," Bolden said in the interview which aired last week. "One, he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math; he wanted me to expand our international relationships; and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math and engineering."

is to shut it down. Surely Obowma didn't expect there to be no repercussions.

Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth.

NO NEW TAXES! NO NEW TAXES! NO NEW TAXES! NO NEW TAXES! TEABAGGERS!TEABAGGERS!TEABAGGERS!TEABAGGERS!TEABAGGERS! This country has had it. The black cloud of anti-science and anti-intellectuals has taken over. GROVER NORQUIST has won, and just because he got beaten up in grade school for his dumb name, and hates everybody. I hope theres a hell for people like him, but I doubt it!

If NASA ran things properly, this wouldn't be a problem. Yet there is no end in sight for their "questionable" contracts. We're still paying on the Constellation program even though that was closed officially. Ref: http://www.parabo...funding/

Can we please force the retirement of all NASA management and start anew? Their politicking is taking away from exceptional science programs.

The funds WILL get restored after some certain 'palms' are greased. Most likely republikan palms. The passage will be quiet, almost embarrasingly in the dark. This vote was to 'send a message' that certain 'politicos' earmarks and pork barrel will not be denied ... or else!

management guys are bunch of loosers, can't even do good math, few hundred millions I can understand, but billions over budget ?? that's pathetic, I was excited, that I will see this beauty working for science in 2014, they fu... up and we probably won't see JWSP in space until early 2020's....design and functionality will be outdated then. We will have better telescopes even here, on Earth

First the Super Conducting Super Collider, now the Web Space Telescope. All this from a group of short sighted and naive fools that would rather piss away our money on some pork barrel project for their constituency rather than to enhance humanitys knowledge of our universe! Let's get rid of Congress instead. That will save us a buck or two...

Where was the budgetary oversight? Who is being held criminally responsible? Instead of throwing it all into the trashcan, why not sell the results (so far) to the highest bidder? Maybe the Chinese would be interested. One more question/suggestion on the topic of elective tax expenditure: Why not take all the programs deemed "elective" and put a check box on the 1040A form? You check it, you get charged for it? Seems fair enough to me. This nation has a crazy way of prioritizing it's expenditures. It has been shown time and time again it's failure to use logic and fiscal responsibility. Maybe the answer is to let The People decide. Yeah, crazy, I know...

Why waste money on Hubble successor? Imagine how many smart bombs and missiles you can rain on Libya with $6.5 billions. You can even start a new war somewhere, in some forgotten little country whose leaders do not bow to the US. There is no bigger threat to American than the one coming from Washington. No terrorist organization, no other country in this world can inflict more damage to America than Americans themselves, the ones being paid by taxpayers and spending their time in congress and the senate to bring America to its knees. You don't need enemies when you have the senate and the congress right there at home playing that role better than anyone abroad. And I am not a US citizen.

FoxNews: "Bob Jacobs, NASA's assistant administrator for public affairs, said that Bolden was speaking of priorities when it came to outreach and not about NASA's primary missions of science, aeronautics and space exploration. He said the core mission is exploration and that it was unfortunate Bolden's comments are now being viewed through a partisan prism."

Bolden said the president encouraged him to "find a way to reach out to the Muslim world" -- a goal he described as "perhaps foremost." But it was mentioned in the same context as other goals -- inspiring kids, expanding international relationships -- suggesting Bolden was speaking not about NASA's obvious scientific purpose, but other activities.

i hoped that NASA will lead us into a new age of space exploration but they are stopped by a bunch of *tupid, greedy, uneducated *diots who can't tell the difference between a planet and a star i guess business as usual in america

Grand Wizard Doug Huffman squats in our forum and none dare call it terrorism. Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth (and broom handles for raping those they disagree with). A is A.

This is the most depressing news I've heard. Of all the things to cut down on! Why should the space program suffer for the misjudgments of American politicians? As long as America keeps her greedy eyes fixed on the rest of the world, especially the Middle East, the human race will end up extinct right here on Earth with no significant knowledge of the bigger World we live in.

And like a candle, once new and vibrant but long since ran it's time and flickers on a barely visible wick, out goes its flame; quietly and without anyone noticing.

So to goes the spirit of discovery, the advancement of knowledge and the desire to learn in the union of states.

Good night America. You've traded the fire you held for these things to hold a flame for war and destruction instead.

We're sad to see you go.

Signed Canada.

Canada? Canada!!! Lose a hockey game and then burn and Vandalize a proud and productive city (Vancouver)! One of the finest places on earth to live and you have the gall...the unmitigated temerity, to prematurely cheer the demise of so much as a grain of sand on anyone else's shores! You forget yourself "Canada"! America HAS a space program and they make PLENTY of room for Canadian science in it (Canada 'arm') YOU do not have the right to speak for an entire nation of people and only left Afghanistan a few days ago.word-to-ya-mothers

Why waste money on Hubble successor? Imagine how many smart bombs and missiles you can rain on Libya with $6.5 billions. You can even start a new war somewhere, in some forgotten little country whose leaders do not bow to the US. There is no bigger threat to American than the one coming from Washington. No terrorist organization, no other country in this world can inflict more damage to America than Americans themselves, the ones being paid by taxpayers and spending their time in congress and the senate to bring America to its knees. You don't need enemies when you have the senate and the congress right there at home playing that role better than anyone abroad. And I am not a US citizen.

Couldn't have said it better, although u did forget white phosphorus and stuxnet 2.0.

I mean you would be saner to believe the usa is in iraq to secure secret hidden alien tech than you are to believe we are there to protect americans at this point.

And yet you see more clearly than 90% of Americans who are still deep in denial.

Right now.. Republicans are plotting to push the U.S. into a 30 year depression by raising the U.S. unemployment rate to 30%, and denying Government Unemployment Assistance to those whom they cause to lose their jobs.

This is what the Budget debate in the U.S. is all about. Republican created depression or a slow climb out of the Republican created debt crisis.

"First the Super Conducting Super Collider, now the Web Space Telescope. All this from a group of short sighted and naive fools that would rather piss away our money on some pork barrel project. " - whatever

Don't B2 bombers cost around 2 billion each?Wasn't the advanced fighter coming in a 1 billion per unit?How much is Bushies little war crime in Iraq going to cost the U.S.? 3,000 to 4,000 billion by best estimates?

Uh, wasn't the Webb's UV sensor the first to be cut, several years ago ? Suddenly, it wasn't the successor to Hubble, which could range from UV to IR. Then it just went further over budget, and its facilities shrivelled...Perhaps the European Space Agency will buy it for 10c on the dollar ??

Is it standard practice for rational, thinking people to elect criminals to high political office?

Apparently so, from Richard Nixon, to Adolph Hitler, to Saul of Jerusalem literally scores of miscreants get 'picked'. Also, often if you do NOT elect them, they raise an army and take power. There is no escaping their ilk but the Space Telescope is NOT dead yet. It may eventually die but it is NOT dead yet.word-to-ya-muthas

Don't B2 bombers cost around 2 billion each?Wasn't the advanced fighter coming in a 1 billion per unit?How much is Bushies little war crime in Iraq going to cost the U.S.? 3,000 to 4,000 billion by best estimates?

Yes, that is the approximate cost for a B-2 Bomber; and after Kosovo, Iraq, twice, and Libya, it has proven its' worth the money. No, the F-22 is not that much AND it is the last fighter along with the F-35 that will be manned. Yes, there will always be humans in armed air combat just...different. No, the Iraqi freedom action will cost a little more than 4 Trillion dollars.word

And yet you see more clearly than 90% of Americans who are still deep in denial.

Right now.. Republicans are plotting to push the U.S. into a 30 year depression by raising the U.S. unemployment rate to 30%, and denying Government Unemployment Assistance to those whom they cause to lose their jobs.

This is what the Budget debate in the U.S. is all about. Republican created depression or a slow climb out of the Republican created debt crisis.

Vendi - Please CUT the american people just a teeny tiny bit of slack...I can assure you, more than ten percent of the US population voted DEMOCRAT my friend. You are, are, insulting people who feel the same way YOU DO, please, please, calm down and show consideration for like minded and humane people. Other than that, everything else you wrote MAY be the agenda of some who call themselves 'republicans' in your great country! Now...breathe DEEP...exhale...take another toke...breatheeee...toke.......sip...exhale

Vendi - c'mon! I won't even argue with you...just try...TRY to imagine someone as passionate as you are about what is WRONG with America thinking...no, DREAMING of a world in which there was/is NO United States of America. Heck, you would have to wake up and apologize!!! If America did nothing else right, it let you live here, duh!?! And what a boring as Hell place this world would be without Americans in it...no rock and roll, no,.. no,.. no,... ROCK AND ROLL! C'mon man, ease off a little huh? word-to-ya-muthas

I can believe anything from a country that puts a nut case like Bolden as NASA Administrator. I did not believe Doug Huffman's post with a quote attributed to Bolden until I went to Al Jazeera and heard it from his own face. It is guaranteed to make you sick. Any wonder why NASA is screwed up and the congress is cutting funds for worthy projects. Can you blame them with the administrator busy trying to make Muslims "feel good" while the agency mismanages important projects like the Web Telescope. Malfeasance is too kind a word for his actions. What a bunch of pathetic rubbish.

First the Super Conducting Super Collider, now the Web Space Telescope. All this from a group of short sighted and naive fools that would rather piss away our money on some pork barrel project for their constituency rather than to enhance humanities knowledge of our universe! Let's get rid of Congress instead. That will save us a buck or two...

The SSC deserved to be killed, like the supersonic transport program, and for the same reason. The programs quickly became infested with bureaucrats who would be retired well before the program accomplished anything, and the money went in lots of directions. In the case of the SSC more construction costs for office buildings than for the collider tunnel.

Once the maggots infect a program like that, it can't be saved. What about the JWST? I don't think it is dead yet. We will see if the bureaucrats volunteer to clean up their act and get the program back on track or not.

"I can believe anything from a country that puts a nut case like Bolden as NASA Administrator." - Parder

Bolden didn't zero funding for the JWST. Radical, treasonous Republicans did, re-elected just 2 years after they ran their own nation's economy into the ground through tax breaks for the rich and relaxed regulation for their corporate brothers in crime.

NASA has become as corrupt as all other Federal Govt. agencies. It should have been shut down when they launched Hubble with a bad mirror. How dumb can you get? And they had a perfect one for back up. Launch the bad one and give the good one to the Smithsonian. Something still stinks about that mess. Send 'em all packing and give the jobs to fresh college grads who have no ties to the Military/Industrial/Space Complex. It's time for new leadership. Revolution is the solution.

"I can assure you, more than ten percent of the US population voted DEMOCRAT my friend." - 210

And 80 percent of Democrats think they can just trim a little here or trim a little there and solve the budget crisis, when in fact it means increasing taxes by 50% or shutting down 1/3rd of the U.S. government.

Oh...Okay, and, thanks for the warning Vendi! I can see the extreme cuteness no doubt inherent in ALL Russian women...when I reach perfection...and I am in a hurry NOW to be MR. PERFECT, I will get over to Russia and hit the disco/night club scene. I am sure Russian women have VERY high standards and...gosh...thanks for opening my eyes man! I could have died without knowing what I was missing :-)word-to-ya-muthas

NASA is greatly under appreciated and I have no doubt that this is a result of the slander from critics throughout the years.

Who cares if they go over budget by a few billion, they're taking us to space and beyond for crying out loud!

It's some of the most important work mankind has ever done but people still find time to bitch about the management and other petty things.

NASA have done a fantastic job in helping us realise our dreams and to cancel a project like this stinks of ignorance.

Look at Hubble and all of the beautiful pictures of the universe we have explored and try to imagine not having these images or knowledge that this amazing stuff is out there. Without the hard work from the men and women at NASA it would not have been possible.

The US has mony to give on those in wallstreet, serveral wars and to spy on there own people, but money for science is not posible.Even when the budget is over, when wapens are involt, that don't matter at all.

FYI the JWST is about 5x over-budget and over a decade late, and both are getting worse.

Fact is that like Constellation and many other poorly run NASA projects, JWST has evolved into a vampire program; one that sucks the life, and money, out of other better run and more efficient projects.

"These people are the ones who firmly believe in evolution and like you propagating it because there's no moral limit that it places on them - forget about anti-science and anti-intellectuals. Blame a staunch believe in evolution - read un-Godly mentality and lifestyle - for this."

No more world leader on Education No more world leader on Infrastructure No more world leader on Biggest Passenger planes No more world leader on Biggest Car and Plane company No more world leader on Largest Ground based TelescopesNo more world leader on Largest Particle AcceleratorsNo more world leader on Renewable Energy (yes, it once was!)

Soon it will have no more Space Shuttle`s, No more Hubble successor. No more Tevatron. And this just seems the beginning of US decline. It`s a shame the US doesn`t have leaders who care about it`s future. Cutting NASA while boosting the CIA by 17 Billion in a time of US decline is disturbing. The same policy of the Holy Roman Empire just before it collapsed. Military, Military, Military. Not strange more and more US scientists are moving to nations like Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland etc.

What really needs to happen is to hold people personaaly and criminally responsible for project mismanagement. So that means people like former NASA Directors and JWST Project Managers forfeiting their pensions and facing jail time, Prime contractors and subcontractors being forced to reveal their profits and have their books audited and ultimately to have projects scrapped altogether. Personal accountability is absolutely essential in projects this important.

In a recession, its a good idea to kill excess programs that aren't even on the ground. Would you rather Grandma starve? (sorry couldn't help it).

But seriously, when the economy upswings again, there will be justification for a bigger better lens in space. We have other priorities that come first right now. You don't buy a 60" HDtv when your broke. It's just stupid.

As to NASA, they were once the pinnacle of pushing our frontiers. They brought alot to us. They have settled lately for routine, mundane tasks. I see no reason to keep them unless they are revisioned to push those boundaries again. So for once, I actually agree with Obama scraping NASA's vision, and I believe he has recently requested that they plan for Mars instead.

First the manufacturing jobs were off-shored to China. And no one said anything.Then white collar jobs went to China ( call centers to India...) and no one said anything ( loud enough to be heard )Then High tech jobs went to China ( Dell pc made in China )Then...(fill in the blanks )Now there no more jobs to off shore and most Americans would be happy to find a minimum wage job at McDonald or Wall mart.

I can understand why the funding would be cut for this project. When a project goes over budget as much as this one has, either there was mismanagement of the project, or there was inadequate R&D to support the project specifications. Both are sure project killers.

You cannot afford to do R&D after you have promised to deliver a functioning device. R&D is for learning about the unknown and there is no telling how long it will take or how much it will cost. Doing a specific project with clearly defined specs, costs, and deadlines requires enough knowledge from your R&D efforts that you can predict with reasonable certainty that there are no major unknowns that would prevent you from completing the project.

Either it was mismanaged, or they did not know enough to build it at this time. Regardless, NASA is guilty of making a promise that it could not keep. Either change the management team and try again, or go back to R&D to learn more before making another promise.

What really needs to happen is to hold people personally and criminally responsible for project mismanagement.

Holding people responsible is essential. It's one of the reasons, in principal, why management positions are well rewarded. But projects can go south for all kinds of reasons, so threatening managers with prison if things go wrong is just one more knee jerk way of guaranteeing that you'll get screw-ups for managers. Imagine this: High level management job available, great perks. If your project goes south, you go to jail. Any takers?

Know what? This exact thing happened to the relative of friend of mine. She spent three years in prison as a result of declaring bankruptcy for her flower shop. In China. That's right; there such failure is punishable by imprisonment. She wasn't found guilty of fraud or some such, just having to close her shop. Yes, this too is part of the Chinese economic miracle. Must be considered motivation. But is this really where you want to go?

Don't wanna get political about it, but is a sad day for science, them telescopes had such high science payoff, not to mention sheer beauty and wonder in rhose pictures. Hopefully the European Extremely Large Telescope and other coming earthbound telescopes with abberation correction will enable similar view as the James Webb

There is a difference between holding individuals in an orginization responsible for mistakes (budget overages, deadline mismanagement, etc etc), and cutting a program that can and will produce meaningful results (no one here has claimed that the telescope would not be a good thing to have for science).

If the real reason for this cut was the mismanagement, then instead of a cut in funding they would go after the individuals who mismanaged instead of the project.

It's not the project, or science's "Fault" that the project went over budget.

This all seems much more an automatic responce by those committed to cutting all non-military related spending to zero.

Were we to not have engaged in SEVERAL wars of CHOICE (not need) we would easily have the money for this project, along with being able to provide our citizens with the basic tools needed to survive in a cut-throat capitalistic society.

i hoped that NASA will lead us into a new age of space exploration but they are stopped by a bunch of *tupid, greedy, uneducated *diots who can't tell the difference between a planet and a star i guess business as usual in america

It's easy to be a critic- obviously- but maybe this is better to look at as a call for ideas and discussion on realistic expectations for not just where we may vs. can (based on where we want) to go in the next 50, 100, 500 and thru 1000 years as opposed to a surrender to less imaginative perogatives. We are gaining new perspectives on where and what we are daily and more control of our destiny with each generation but it's looking like we're going to have to consolidate and do better here on Home if we are to have any chance of realizing our Best in the wider Universe. Life remains entirely interesting so just consider that it need not be a bad thing.

Wow, we can pay a useless illiterate steroid shooting waste of space tens of millions per year to throw a ball or an actor 20 million per movie but we cannot as a society justify investing in instruments of science and discovery. What has happened to our nation? I hope Americans like the idea of working for the Chinese for sub minimum wage because with the level of scientific literacy were moving toward that's about the best we can hope for.

"i hoped that NASA will lead us into a new age of space exploration" - gilgamesh

You didn't fall for the Bush Era Nonsense about America going to Mars did you?

I cant speak for Gilgamesh re: the truthiness of the Bush Era Nonsense, or for that matter, the Obama Era Nonsense of Chump Change We Can Believe In (actually, a couple of nickels to rub together would be a windfall compared to the Change we got), but no,I didnt buy the planet hopping promises for a nanosecond..

For me, the timing when Bush got all sciencey reeked. It was January of 2004, and the their to the moon & Mars announcement overshadowed the breaking news about the Bush family dynastys secret relationship with a known criminal Middle East bank in the oil business, and his former treasury secretarys exposé that his administration had been hell-bent on attacking Iraq on day 1 of his presidency. So no--hell no. Lies R Them.

"i hoped that NASA will lead us into a new age of space exploration" - gilgamesh

You didn't fall for the Bush Era Nonsense about America going to Mars did you?

I cant speak for Gilgamesh re: the truthiness of the Bush Era Nonsense, or for that matter, the Obama Era Nonsense of Chump Change We Can Believe In (actually, a couple of nickels to rub together would be a windfall compared to the Change we got), but no,I didnt buy the planet hopping promises for a nanosecond..

For me, the timing when Bush got all sciencey reeked. It was January of 2004, and their to the moon & Mars announcement overshadowed the breaking news about the Bush family dynasty's secret relationship with a known criminal Middle Eastern bank in the oil business, and his former treasury secretary's exposee that his administration had been hell-bent on attacking Iraq on day 1 of his presidency. So no--hell no. Lies R Them.

"I submit that when the scientists lobby hangs a multistory poster in praise of corn ethanol on its Washington building, and when our Senate passes a law that results in our nation burning up over 40% of its corn to please political factions, that we have entered a new phase in our history, where indeed rational policylike providing cheap and abundant food for the worldhas been replaced by the insanity of an unelected scientific-technological elite."http://blogs.forb...ernment/""Once science has to serve, not truth, but the interests of a class, a community or a state.... As the Nazi minister of justice has explained, the question which every new scientific theory must ask itself is: 'Do I serve National Socialism for the greatest benefit of all?'"http://www.crossr...m-11.htmCutting the program is positive sign the US may still beat back the socialists.

No wonder why the rest of the world thinks so little of america and it's citizens!

While it may be true that we have become a nation of self obsessed hedonists who over consume and overspend, consider what the last century would have been like without America. We pulled Europe from the brink twice and then rebuilt her, we kept the world free for a half century, we feed the world, we share out technology, we are always there to pick up the pieces when there is an earthquake, or hurricane, or famine.For those of you who gleefully cheer on the demise of the U.S.A., you might want to consider what the next century will be like in your benighted little corner of a world without America. May your Chinese overlords be merciful!

"Wow, we can pay a useless illiterate steroid shooting waste of space tens of millions per year to throw a ball or an actor 20 million per movie but we cannot as a society justify investing in instruments of science and discovery." - Icamir

Nope. Constructing weapons of war, roller derby and WWF wresteling, is much more important to Conservatives.

First there need to be Muslims on the moon. Then Israel will order USA politicians to build a rocketship capable of landing there and annexing them into a suburb of Gaza. That's the only way things get done in the USA now.

Republican (and some Dem) scumbags. $20 billion for air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan? Really? $6.5 billion? Don't we spend that each week in the middle east?

About $60M per day to air condition bases in just Iraq. Obama made a big splash, $70M for robotic manufacturing. I wonder which one is more relevant for national security. I morn for our country with the teabagger's in control. I though Obama would be our man, but he can't muster even the simplest arguments against them. All government industrial policy has to be "in the name of defense". Think of microchips and the internet, both were "protected" by military uses. China's tax rate is at least 10% higher than ours. I guess their economy must be terrible. We've been running against our government since Regan ... where has it gotten us?

Ah just a tangential suggestion... why can't Anon have a little go at the Wall Street criminals, bank CEOs and republican fat cats. I think a little redistribution of resources is needed and Anon may have the folks smart enough to make it so.

Nothing NASA does is routine. Have you any idea how technically challenging their work really is?

Nothing the defense department does is routine. Do you know how technically challenging it is to drop a bomb through an open window or just hit a tank? How about knocking down a nuclear tipped missile? DoD has done these and many other challenging acts with constant criticism. If you really want the telescope finished or return to the moon or go to Mars, put DoD in charge. After all, the very successful Apollo project WAS a national defense project.NASA since Apollo has been a political organization more than a technical one. Feynmann provided significant insight in his own Challenger investigation.

Trillions for wall street criminals and corrupt Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, billions to air condition tents in Afghanistan, print more money and devalue the dollar and every US citizens wealth by 20% since the 2010 election and rising, more funding for the disastrous corn-to-ethanol corporate welfare, no taxes for megagiant friend of Obama General Electric, crumbs for NASA.

But we will still be able to borrow from China to buy a ride on the Soyuz. Swell.

"A report ordered by Senator Barbara Mikulski, a Maryland Democrat (see Democratic War on Science) said the whole thing was flawed from the beginning, essentially implying the cost and technical issues were understated to get financing started. "http://www.scienc...bad_news"Budgets are finite. Everyone knows this except partisans in science. The $1.5 billion that JWST now claims it needs in order to not waste the billions already spent could fund 5,000 basic science research projects in space science ""First, fund smaller projects that don't have big engineering issues and are achievable.

Second, make missions time-based, get back to 'acceptable risk' and allow NASA to shuck off the modern 'zero defects' mentality and the tentacles of bureaucracy and regulatory constraints that infect much of government-funded science."http://www.scienc...it-80701

Great civilizations fall when they turn their backs to the principles that made them great. America used to be known as the land of the free. The american dream. If someone worked their a** off they could work their way up the social ladder. America was once a leader in manufacturing and science and technology. America is at the edge of a cliff. If it takes another step forward, it will fall off a cliff into a pit it will never be able to climb out of. If it takes a step back, and analyzes what is causing it's down fall,and reverts it's increasingly disturbing trends, it may be able to recover. To put it bluntly, america is cocky. It believes that that it is invinciple and invulnerable. Recently, congress passed a bill that would actually increase the U.S's base military budget by $17 billion. America has high unemployment, an infrastructure that is rapidly crumbling and becoming more and more outdated,and is currently $14 trillion dollars in debt. That is $46,500 for every american.

and $130,000 for every taxpayer. Yet,american continues to make the same mistakes. I do not believe all americans are dumb. Most are extremely bright. Yet, from a lack of organization, the idiots of this country have all the power. That is how our leader ship has grown so incompetent. Once upon a time, english king taxed a people he didnt even understand for causes the taxed people cared very little about. About a hundred years later, a french king taxed his people for wars while his people were starving and jobless. Both of these times, the incompetent and corrupt government got replaced with a government that strove to serve it's people better. Today, the american government is choosing the same path, choosing to spend enormous amounts of money in a time and world when,excluding a few rogue states and fanatic religious organizations, is largely at peace. Instead of facing issues at it's core, such as dwindling natural resources such as gasoline, the government chooses to subsidize

these dying technologies in the belief that it can spend it's way out of this problem. Yet, capitalism only works with a supply and demand economy, meaning if demand is higher than supply, the price will go up. Because of the governments subsidies, gasoline is much cheaper than it would be if left alone,so we are not transitioning into more sustainable technologies. Big oil companies tell us that we have enouph oil to last us for decades. what they don't tell us is that oil that is economically feasible to drill is extremely rapidly running out, and we are having to revert to processes such as deep water drilling (deep water horizon) and fracking, which puts poisons the water supply and which some scientists believes may help cause earthquakes. The american federal

government has f'd up real bad, yet the vast majority of the american people is to ignorant to realize what is really happening, and which is about to explode in their faces. Good luck america. maybe if we cut money from areas which do not matter like military and waste, we could put money into areas such as science, education, and infrastructure upgrades, and replacing our decades old, crumbling infrastructure that is falling apart before our eyes. But than that would effect our "national security", wouldn't it. seriously america, wake up, learn what is going on around you,demand a competant governmetn, and maybe we won't become a second world country. just a thought, just a thought.

VD - Hate much? Have anything useful or helpful to say? Every comment you have posted has been hateful and negative.

"the goal of Libertarians and Randite vermin." - VDThis is the same type of talk that enabled the NAZI socialists to convince themselves they were murdering others for the greater good. Might want to consider saying something positive about your politics rather than always posting the negative about others.

People have unending needs and wants so there will ALWAYS be a demand side.

government has f'd up real bad,

So the solution is to have a screwed up govt take more wealth and waste that?

areas which do not matter like military

If you haven't noticed Iran is building nuclear missiles that can reach Europe and the USA. I agree, the US should cut military funding and just defend the USA. Europe seems to want to return to Islamic Sharia law. If they don't what Iran to help process along, Europe can defend itself from Iran and Russia.

Competent to do what?Do you think the federal govt is too big? Do you want a competent govt to write thousands of pages of new regulations every year, and selectively enforce them?Why not support the idea embodied in the US Constitution? Limit the power of the federal govt as its authors intended.Just heard, govt mandated calorie counts on restaurant menus have no impact upon what people eat. But the customers still pay for an ineffective govt regulation.

Instead of facing issues at it's core, such as dwindling natural resources such as gasoline,

The only reason these resources are dwindling is the US govt bans anyone from pumping more KNOWN oil reserves and the govt increases the costs of building new refineries to make that gasoline.The 'dwindling' is artificial.

In all the comments up to now, nobody has mentioned the REAL reason the radical Republicans want to axe the James Webb telescope. The Webb telescope will open a window into the very early Universe. We might be seeing the very first light, stars, and galaxies after the Eon of Darkness that followed the Big Bang. But these religious zealots do not want Science to delve into such a time, about which their dogma insists "not even the angels know." That would help dispel the ignorant darkness through which they aim to control the American public and that scares the bejesus out of them. Arguments about wastefulness and the ailing economy are mere dissemblance. What can be more wasteful than what they propose to do: throw away the almost $5 billion already spent on a project over half completed for a pitiful $1.6 billion mere lunch money, as far as what these knuckle-heads regularly approve for better ways to blow things up. It almost beats the infamous gold-plated toilet seat cover!

In all the comments up to now, nobody has mentioned the REAL reason the radical Republicans want to axe the James Webb telescope.....

I totally agree, on a subconscious level however.

More anti-religious BS.Too bad those atheist, 'liberal', 'intellectuals' can't accomplish engineering projects on time and budget. Even the democrats want to waste the money somewhere else to buy votes.

NASA doesn't put billions into the pockets of our corporocrat overlords and their Conservative frontmen, and for that reason alone is a prime target for the Deep Six- always has been, and always will be. All other claims, assertions, or considerations are merely noise designed to obscure that intent.

If space were made of 1 x 10^-30 per centum pure gold, however -well, it would hardly be possible to EVER appropriate ENOUGH funding for the NASA mission.

You 'liberals' keep complaining about how corporations control Congress and now you complain that corporations do NOT control Congress to support YOUR pet programs.

Ain't it a BITCH?

For you. I am the only one here who supports limiting the power of the state. By limiting the state's power corporations (or universities) have no need to bribe politicians.

So that's why you feel compelled to whine about my viewpoint? Because you are so attuned with the corporate power structure? I suppose that, in any event, they would still feel it necessary to pay you?

It is the 'progressive' that demands more govt power, which some corporations support as they can use that power to squash their competitors. It's been happening since the creation of the FDA. It is so amusing to observe the 'progressive' whine about corporate influence in govt then advocate for more state power just as the corporate power structure wants. They should read De Tar Baby.

BTW, here is another big science project to waste money on. Fusion has been 30 years away for 60 years."But an abundant, safe and clean energy source once thought to be the stuff of science fiction is closer than many realize: nuclear fusion. Making it a reality, however, will take significant investment from the government at a time when spending on scientific research is under threat. "http://www.nytime...=opinion

I will be doing my part to make sure this program is not canceled. Comparing the budgets of NASA and DoD is heartbreaking. We need to end the wars ASAP!! That said,

Generalizing all Americans is the same logic radical Islam uses to defend attacks on the innocent. Just saying.

I'm with all of you on your hatred of the wars. However, you are all wrong on the AC issue. It's necessary. If you haven't spent a night in the desert where temps stay above 36C all night, then you have no understanding of the reality of the situation and your opinion is therefore less than worthless. Find some other war issue to be outraged about. AC is the wrong one, and you all come off as extremely ignorant and intellectually lazy for polemic reasons.

I question why we invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq as opposed to other options, but we have to leave in a way that makes the world a safer place.

Isn't that why you all voted for Obama?

No.

I voted for Obama to end the failed social experiment called "trickle down economics". I voted for Obama with the hope that he would re-regulate the financial industry and stop the reign of the speculators on the commodity markets and on Wall Street. I voted for Obama to prevent the corporate money grab that the Republicans call "privatization of Social Security". I voted for Obama with the hopes of one day having single payer health coverage in America.I voted for Obama so that the people could retake the Supreme Court majority from the pawns appointed by big business interests.

Hopefully we can use the current budget crisis to reevaluate NASA and build a stronger, leaner, more efficient agency to further our exploration of space. JWST might not make the cut.

Will you vote again for Obama's socialist policies? They are working so well.

What are you even talking about? Obama hasn't had time to do anything yet. The US is gasping for air, trying to recover from the disasters caused by Reaganomics and the Bush family. He was handed a nation in a downward spiral into the abyss and has stopped the fall.

Um, Mr. Clinton signed the deregulation of the banking industry into law. And blaming Reaganomics - really? Getting some mileage out of that excuse aren't we? Since we are opening the archives did we forget the recession caused by the Carter administration and its 14% mortgage interest rates, 85% tax rates and America's active military families on food stamps just to get by? Oh, and lets not forget the Delta Force's inability to maintain their helicopters so they couldn't rescue 50 Americans held hostage.

I was raised a Democrat and Mr Carter's incompetent adminstration convinced me that was not the way to go, so I tried the Republican party even though I disliked the religious right. George W's bone-headed administration showed me they can't get it right either. So, now I'm an independent because the various parties keep changing their platforms and who they are in bed with. More than ever you must judge the individual and their record.

"Ronald Reagan understood this well, which is why his question at the end of his only debate with Jimmy Carter was so devastating:

"When you make [your decision to vote next Tuesday]," he said to the American people, "it might be well if you would ask yourself: Are you better off than you were four years ago? Is it easier for you to go and buy things in the stores than it was four years ago? Is there more or less unemployment in the country than there was four years ago? Is America as respected throughout the world as it was?""http://online.wsj...194.htmlThe answer in 2012 will be NO!

George W's bone-headed administration showed me they can't get it right

Bush was not a conservative.

More data documenting the failure of central planning (aka 'progressivism'/socialism):"Despite massive investments of money, effort, and ingenuity, our ability to predict human affairs is impressive only in its mediocrity. With metronomic regularity, what is expected does not come to pass, while what isnt, does. ""Natural science has discovered in the past half-century that the dream of ever-growing predictive mastery of a deterministic universe may well be just that, a dream.""It follows that we also need to give greater consideration to living with failure, uncertainty, and surprise. "

Um, Mr. Clinton signed the deregulation of the banking industry into law. And blaming Reaganomics - really?

Yup. Blaming the Republican Congress that pushed for the deregulation that allowed the Great Conservative Recession. Sure, Clinton probably should have vetoed it, but if anybody had known where it was going...

Getting some mileage out of that excuse aren't we?

I'd call it an explanation, rather than an excuse, but why shirk from the truth?

...Carter administration...

Really need to go there? You really think that energy prices and OPEC didn't have anything to do with it? Don't toss out red herrings and expect anybody to listen.

...Delta Force's inability...

Yeah, because the president was ultimately responsible for the success of a military operation? Reagan manipulated that crisis to get elected. Dirty politics.

...Mr Carter's incompetent adminstration...

Do some more homework. Carter wasn't incompetent. Just not a salesman.

WHAT! Obamacare hasn't even started yet. How can you blame crap on Obamacare when it isn't even in play yet? And Libya? Are you KIDDING??? France and our European allies jumped in there and we supported NATO. How can you possibly call it Obama starting a war? Lies.

Reagan ... question at the end of his only debate

Really? You too with the Carter administration? Why do you think Carter was able to get elected? Because the previous Republican administration was such a train wreck. He walked into a nightmare and got bushwhacked by OPEC and then again in Iran.

The answer in 2012 will be NO!

Again, Obama was handed a plummeting economy caused by the neo-cons. He has made great strides to improve the situation, but the foundation was so weak because of the total devastation wreaked by Bush that it is going to take time. We are moving in the right direction.

Are you kidding me? Look at Bush. This is utter nonsense. At least Obama didn't take a prolonged vacation while the entire intelligence apparatus is screaming at him about imminent attacks from a terrorist organization.

cato bs... our ability to predict human affairs is impressive only in its mediocrity... more cato BS

Yeah, so the answer is to step back and let chaos reign? What happens when the evidence we already have that free markets don't self regulate effectively proves true? What then when you have dismantled the government and there is no safety net? What do we do when the corporate overlords start polluting and destroying us? Revolution? What then?

Your libertarian fantasy world doesn't exist. The real world doesn't work the way you dream it would. Market controls need to be supported by regulation and a strong federal government. More transparency and election reform are necessary.

"It follows that we also need to give greater consideration to living with failure, uncertainty, and surprise. "

Failure? Like a dead planet? Like thousands of people being killed by unsafe products before "market corrections" can punish the bad companies?Uncertainty? Like not knowing whether somebody with more money and resources is going to like your property and take it from you? Like not knowing whether the products you buy are going to kill you? Like not knowing whether the company you work for is killing you everyday when you go to work without any threat of punishment/recourse by you?

How about a stable federal government looking out for the American people? How about transparency and election finance reform so we better understand motivations driving our elected officials? How about a progressive tax policy that promotes reinvestment rather than hording and offshoring?

These people are the ones who firmly believe in evolution and like you propagating it because there's no moral limit that it places on them - forget about anti-science and anti-intellectuals. Blame a staunch believe in evolution - read un-Godly mentality and lifestyle - for this.

In related news;

"The Crystal Cathedral, seeking a way to resolve its debt woes, will sell its church and 40-acre campus for $46 million to an Orange County developer, according to the federal bankruptcy plan filed Friday.

"Only a portion of the 550 creditors listed in the filings were designated as eligible for full repayment. The California megachurch plans to pay back any remaining vendor debt over the next 42 months.

"...Sheila Schuller Coleman, the founder's daughter, will receive a salary of around $70,000 a year.

"A chief financial officer will be hired by the church and receive a salary of no more than $300,000 a year..."

Um, Mr. Clinton signed the deregulation of the banking industry into law. And blaming Reaganomics - really?

Yup. Blaming the Republican Congress that pushed for the deregulation that allowed the Great Conservative Recession. Sure, Clinton probably should have vetoed it, but if anybody had known where it was going...

How about we simply follow the money? For instance, who has received how much from the financial and banking sector from 1989 to 2008?

How about a stable federal government looking out for the American people? How about transparency and election finance reform so we better understand motivations driving our elected officials? How about a progressive tax policy that promotes reinvestment rather than hording and offshoring?

We agree on 3 out of 4. 75% isn't so bad. I happen to think that progressive tax policies promote offshoring. Tax and policy instability promote hoarding. If we don't know how stable the economy will be we horde our money. If you tax me too much and I can figure out how, my money is going elsewhere to be sheltered from the government's abuse of what they forcefully take from me. Do you really think its not just a game to the liberal and conservative billionairs alike who can afford to play the system? I'd rather have consistant and set tax rates with zero deductions unless you are at or near the poverty level. No favoritism, no other special deals, no other exceptions.

SteveL: I don't know what to say other than, it happened on Dubya's watch. Graham-Leach-Bliley didn't have to lead to the mortgage crisis. The Commodities Futures Modernization Act didn't have to lead to Enron. The problem is the consistent weakening of federal regulatory agencies. Auditing firms should have caught these problems. The SEC should have caught it all. The Fed should have been in there. Freddie and Fannie should have been better managed and monitored. It is all one big giant cluster.

Crazy libertarians want government to go away, but that will only lead to chaos. Free market self regulation will destroy the world economy and this planet. There are too many people in it only for themselves and technology enables them to do great harm even with government protections in place.

The answer is transparency, campaign finance reform, intelligent regulation, and bolstering enforcement. Dems and Reps are both guilty. But the "conservatives" aren't changing course.

Progressive tax policies have never promoted offshoring. Cheap labor and government incentives have promoted offshoring. Higher marginal tax rates have historically lead to higher rates of reinvestment, to keep from paying taxes.

Tax and policy instability promote hoarding.

Look at the last 10 years. In the 90's the top 1 percent earned 16% of all income in the US. In 2010 it was 23.5% Where were the jobs? The top 1 percent owns more wealth than the bottom 90%. Where are the jobs? Why wouldn't you tax corporations and high wage earners? They rely upon the government services and infrastructure to make their money more than anyone.

How is it that Exxon Mobil and GE paid NO TAXES in 2010. It needs to get fixed while we still have something the multinational corporations want: consumers. Pretty soon China and the rest of the world will make us irrelevant if we keep on the same path.

/q Ahhhhhhhhh.... It occurs to me that predicting the cost of something that has never been engineered before is not particularly easy or reliable because... Well, because, it has never been done before./q - Vendicar Decarian

You prioritize your future goals and spend your R&D budget developing the enabling technologies that support those goals. When your R&D has provided enough knowledge about the enabling technologies to build a device, then you ask for the money to build it. At that point, you should not be breaking new ground. You should be leveraging your R&D and should be in a position to provide an accurate estimate of cost and time to build. The fact that it has not been built before is mitigated by the R&D that created the technologies that make it possible to build. The cost and time to learn about the unknowns and develop the required technologies is buried in the R&D budgets of the past, not as part of the build project itself.

The cost and time to learn about the unknowns and develop the required technologies is buried in the R&D budgets of the past, not as part of the build project itself.

You don't even know what you are talking about.

The JWST project has expanded so much beyond its initial scope it is ridiculous. They have piled on more and more capabilities since the $1.5bn estimate that it isn't even close to a fair comparison. Its like saying you were going to buy a bicycle to get to work, changed your mind and opted for a motorcycle and now you are all upset because your initial cost estimate was so far off.

Beyond that, the procedures behind the design, construction and launch that NASA is imposing on the project have also changed dramatically.

If the project has to be delayed for economic reasons, delay it. But the piling on about the cost change needs to be more objective and at least mention that the project is much more than initially proposed.

I was speaking in generalities in response to Vendicar's assertion that predicting the cost of something that has never been built before is difficult and was trying to illustrate how you go about doing that so that you don't go way over budget when you ask for the money to build a thing.

The JWST project has expanded so much beyond its initial scope it is ridiculous.

Scope creep is a form of mismanagement and is an easy trap to fall into. It is`easy to justify adding new capability during design, but you must resist if you hope to complete the project.

Beyond that, the procedures behind the design, construction and launch that NASA is imposing on the project have also changed dramatically.

Policy changes can kill a project. All the more reason to avoid scope creep and get the thing built. The longer the delay, the greater the chances of policy changes having a negative impact.

Regarding scope creep. You need to pull your head out of the software world to properly evaluate scope creep in this context. What you say is partially true, but many involved looked at JWST as a once in a generation project. That being said, it is still projected to be on par with Hubble in inflation adjusted dollars and I'd say Hubble was worth every penny.

NASA changed it's short lived philosophy of quick and dirty missions. Hopefully the tough decisions with JWST will be a delay and/or paring down and not junking it.

...but many involved looked at JWST as a once in a generation project.

This can be a great motivator, but can also cloud judgement if used as the rationale to constantly change the scope to make something bigger and better. Change the scope once and people will generally understand. Perhaps new information not known at the time it was designed rendered some of the mission obsolete or demanded a change to make the original mission viable once again. Change the scope more than once, and people begin to question credibility - especially those people who are in charge of the money and not invested in the history of the project or its promise to deliver new discoveries.

@Pyle: "SteveL: I don't know what to say other than, it happened on Dubya's watch. Graham-Leach-Bliley didn't have to lead to the mortgage crisis."

The fall-out happened on George W's watch, but the fire was lit on uncle Billy's watch. Both main political parties stink to high heaven in my opinion. It's just that when people castigate just one party they are apparently ignoring the tomfoolery of their favorite one. I hold both parties accountable because I know that no single party has a lock on the laws that are passed and the more these self serving political jackalopes keep fooling around with a system of governance that once worked the worse off we become.

I'd rather see billions spent on JWST than on arts and other feel-good projects. A byproduct of projects like JWST is that it supports science and engineering and represents technical progress. A large part of that money is re-injected back into our economy through payroll and parts.

Continued: It's a matter of needs vs. wants. We may want to support the arts, and if you do fine, but we need science and technology projects.

We need to hold Managers accountable for their projects and their budgets (It's your money and mine!). I know when I worked for Alcoa if your capital project went 10% over budget, well, lets just say life became uncomfortable and far more complicated. Personally I never exceeded 9.76% over budget and I was sweating that. Accountability is the key to responsibility. Our lawmakers, who have stewardship over our economy seem to not remember that.

Pyle, do you believe those who supported and promoted the Community Reinvestment Act did so to collapse world economies?If not, then the Cato article I posted must have some merit.

As for Obama and golf:"Obama has played golf far more often than former President George W. Bush. In his eight years in office, Mr. Bush played just 24 times. His last time as president was Oct. 13, 2003.

He said in 2008 that he gave up golf "in solidarity" with the families of soldiers who were dying in Iraq.

"I don't want some mom whose son may have recently died to see the commander in chief playing golf," Mr. Bush said in a White House interview Saturday with the Politico. "I feel I owe it to the families to be as to be in solidarity as best as I can with them. And I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal.""http://www.livele...71879598

Companies are leaving high tax 'progressive' states for lower tax states.

Of course they are and they should be penalized for doing so. If they do the same over national borders we should penalize them as well. There is a cost to doing business in a country with a well maintained infrastructure. The companies that benefit from the government should help pay for it by paying taxes.

Is this the regulation Pyle wants?"The NAS panel recently issued a sharply worded criticism of the EPAs rushed methodology in evaluating formaldehydes toxicity. The NAS found the EPAs practices to be in desperate need of substantial revision and expressed concern about the persistence of problems encountered with [the Integrated Risk Information System] assessments over the years. The NAS concluded that the EPAs criteria to identify evidence for selecting and evaluating studies are fundamentally flawed.

"In the face of yet higher costs of federal regulations, the research shows that small businesses continue to bear a disproportionate share of the federal regulatory burden. The findings are consistent with those in Hopkins (1995), Crain and Hopkins (2001), and Crain (2005)."http://www.sba.go...853/2016This is the 'progressive' way to stifle competition. That's why the large meat packers wanted the FDA, to put their competitors out of business. Large companies like GE donate to Obama and in return get regulations favoring their company to the detriment of their competitors.

So much of this thread, especially early on, seems to be of the "It's only $6 billion! What about (insert pet item of severe angst) that's costing us $billions^eleventy!!???", before going on to spew venom on the imagined American culprit of choice. And then, as if the planet had a right to a new space telescope paid for by American taxes, sound all outraged that for some insane reason (probably Tea Party witchcraft, those hypocrits!) Americans would kind of like to get the spending under control. At bit. Just here and there.

You got a problem with America also spending $gazillion on (insert titanically evil and obviously criminal American Right-wing plot)? OK, feel free to add it to the list.

I'm a space nut. Rabid. I'd love to live on the Moon. But not at taxpayer expense, and in terms of government spending, we need to cut out ALL the fat, maybe some extra muscle, and possibly a few bones.

I'll make you a deal. If you can close Congress, I get to sell California. Win/win!

Our lawmakers, who have stewardship over our economy seem to not remember that.

THAT's why the economy is so screwed up.

A large part of that money is re-injected back into our economy through payroll and parts.

What is the opportunity cost of that money? What if that money was in the hands of innovative, economic entrepreneurs working to create products and services, for a profit, their customers need and want?

Rygges... "If you haven't noticed Iran is building nuclear missiles that can reach Europe and the USA. I agree, the US should cut military funding and just defend the USA. Europe seems to want to return to Islamic Sharia law. If they don't what Iran to help process along, Europe can defend itself from Iran and Russia."

Europe wants to return to Islamic Sharia Law??? Really?At which point in European history would we have been governed by Sharia Law and why the inference that the US has saved us from it?We'll manage quite happily on our own thank you, we coped prior to the US being a super power and we'll cope quite happily if it eventually isn't anymore.I spend a lot of time in the USA and of the many fantastic people I've met there is always the odd one now and then who believes that the US is the saviour of the entire world instead of a partner to other nations, are you one of those?

In my opinion the only things government should be responsible for is: Protect its citizens, keep the national peace both internally and externally, maintain national utilities and infrustructure and and to persue science and engineering goals that will benefit future generations where private funds and ability are insufficient.

We can't afford to police the world, we can't afford to buy international "friends" year after year, we can't afford to pay for artsy feel-good projects and bridges to nowhere.

From a tax code perspective we also need to stop supplimenting unlimited family sizes with $7,500 child deductions. We need to eliminate deductions for charities. Also, we need to take a close look at corporate deductions with the idea that corporations making $40,000,000,000 profit per quarter ought to be paying taxes. Something is wrong when the GE's of the world don't pay taxes. This inequity drives polatization in politics and class structure.

Companies pay NO taxes. The customers of those companies pay the taxes.

Huh? Sure, companies pass on the cost of doing business, including taxes, to customers. But paying taxes to the government that enables the companies to exist is a cost of doing business. You say taxes stifle businesses. I say not having roads stifles businesses. I say senior citizens dying in the streets stifles businesses. I say consumers not having two nickels to rub together stifles businesses. Should I continue?

You believe in some fairy tale land where companies do the right thing for everybody and if nobody is looking then the market will create a utopia on Earth. People lie, cheat, and steal. If there is no government then the rich will get richer and the poor will die. But maybe you want that. I would prefer if the masses were a comfortable thriving mass of consumers propelling us forward and not an abused source of cheap labor to line the pockets of the corporate overlords.

Yup. I love the NAS. I wish we had more organizations like it to watch the federal government and make sure that the right things are being done. The EPA does need to be improved. We need more transparency and active involvement in government, not necessarily less government.

"In the face of yet higher costs of federal regulations, the research shows that small businesses continue to bear a disproportionate share of the federal regulatory burden."

Yup. It isn't fair. The big boys need to pay their fair share. I agree. But the answer isn't to flush it all away. The answer is to even the burden and improve the regulations.

This is the 'progressive' way to stifle competition. That's why the large meat packers wanted the FDA, to put their competitors out of business.

Nope. You cite an example from 100 years ago. Give it a rest. This is big business corrupting government. We need to fix that.

One of the most oustanding results in the deregulation of the banking industry is that while everyone had easy access to money, only those with money knew what to do with it and those who didn't previously have access to money really didn't. So, the rich got richer and the poor and middle class, who didn't know the dangers and didn't know their limits commonly faltered and ended up defaulting on their loans. Hence, the middle class and poor got poorer. The published goal was that everyone could have access to "The American Dream". Instead what happened was that since people had access to more money than they could pay back they defaulted, by the millions. It's nice to think you can help people by giving them access to easy money, but if they don't understand the liabilities and the true cost it's like letting a child have access to a credit card. Some day, someone will have a debt to pay. We're paying it now.

SteveL: I don't agree with everything you are saying, but I agree with 75% of it. I see a trend. ryggy's libertarian dystopia isn't the answer.

There are some major problems in this country and privatization isn't the answer to solve almost any of them. Sure, I like the idea of private companies competing for space contracts. But cutting edge research like JWST needs government support. I firmly believe that great things will come from it and projects like it.

Progressive means change, not socialism. It means making things better. The problem with the progressive movement is that it means lots of different things to different people. The "conservatives" in America aren't conservative. They are unified in their goal to squeeze every last cent out of the people for the sake of profit. They lie cheat and steal to do it and want to weaken and control gov't so nobody can stop them.

Those "with money" were the ones giving it to the people who didn't pay it back. Those "with money" were the ones creating massive mortgage backed securities. They engineering the credit default swaps. Those "with money" got bailed out, but they were as much or more to blame than the consumers who took on too much debt.

The answer to the problem isn't easy. But it absolutely isn't "don't give poor people money", which can be construed from your position. I'm pretty sure you don't think it is the answer either.

But most importantly the people need to GET INVOLVED and have better access to information. People with money are feeding trolls like ryggy the nonsense he spews. More better sources need to be developed to balance the flow of information.

Our lawmakers, who have stewardship over our economy seem to not remember that.

THAT's why the economy is so screwed up.

A large part of that money is re-injected back into our economy through payroll and parts.

What is the opportunity cost of that money? What if that money was in the hands of innovative, economic entrepreneurs working to create products and services, for a profit, their customers need and want?

Ryggy, good points.

In response to the first part, YES. So the answer is to wake our elected officials up and remind them as well as electing better representatives that understand better how to do their job and who are working for us, not towards some other ends.

In response to the second part. Yes. All options need to be on the table. Sometimes throwing money at entrepreneurs is the right answer. Sometimes megalithic multinational government sponsored research is the answer. JWST is probably the latter. Its for humanity after all, not profit.

The only way to do that is to vote them out of office. The tea parties did a wonderful job of waking up many politicians and are doing a wonderful job of waking up many more.Too bad the 'progressives' don't want to help.

This is big business corrupting government. We need to fix that

And the 'progressive' solution plays right into the hands of 'big business'. More competition and less govt IS the only method PROVEN to 'fix that'.

Sure, companies pass on the cost of doing business, including taxes, to customers. But paying taxes to the government that enables the companies to exist is a cost of doing business.

Then you agree, only the customer pays taxes therefore you should support the FAIR tax so the consumers pay all taxes, and, since when something is taxed, less is produced. So, tax consumption, not income. Many here decry excess consumption and want people to make more money.

Pyle, this is the classic example of the 'progressive' state:"Police in Georgia have shut down a lemonade stand run by three girls trying to save up for a trip to a water park, saying they didn't have a business license or the required permits."http://hosted.ap....=DEFAULTState regulations are used to limit competitors.This happened to a woman who started a business braiding hair. The state demanded she obtain a cosmetologists license to braid hair."By forcing hairbraiders to get an expensive license, cosmetology schools are guaranteed tuition-paying students and licensed cosmetologists are protected from competition, forcing consumers to pay more, "http://atlantapos...ing-law/

And the 'progressive' solution plays right into the hands of 'big business'.

So the 'anti-progressive' CATO institute isn't 'big business'? How about Murdoch? The Koch brothers? It is funny how every anti-progressive agency that I am aware of is backed by big business. How exactly does this all play out in your mind? I am eager to understand the logic of your master plan. Something like "give power to the supreme market overlords and they will commence fighting over the spoils and libertarian utopia takes over and the world is beautiful and everyone is happy." Is that how it plays out?

the FAIR tax so the consumers pay all taxes

Right, so the people piling up their wealth don't pay any taxes on what they put in the pile. That will stimulate the DEMAND driven economy how? The economy is driven by CONSUMERS. Your FAIR tax sound rather like a stimulus to pile wealth that decreases consumption, since you are taxing it. Taxing income leads to reinvestment. More...

That is definitely a rather extreme example. What if it were three hoodlums pushing "bath salts" instead? I'd want those guys put out of business, or at least registered so that there could be some recourse when their product starts making people sick.Consumer protection is difficult, I agree. As long as the enforcement is even-handed then I feel this is a necessary inconvenience.

The state demanded she obtain a cosmetologists license to braid hair.

There is abuse of the system by groups trying to establish market advantage. The way to fix this is with better information and transparency. License fees don't need to be higher, but I want everybody performing a service to be accountable for the work they do.

I want everybody performing a service to be accountable for the work they do.

How does a license ensure accountability?There are better, more efficient solutions that don't involve creating a larger govt bureaucracy. But a larger govt bureaucracy (power) IS the objective of the 'progressive'.

t is funny how every anti-progressive agency that I am aware of is backed by big business.

THIS makes sense. And anti-socialist policies are supported by SMALL businesses as well.Why are so many big businesses SUPPORTING the Regulatory State?

Murdoch and Koch Industries support and promote competition.The Koch brothers operate and highly successful and profitable business. Why didn't Obama ask one of them to be on his business team? One of the Koch brothers wrote a great business book on their philosophy."The Science of Success: How Market-Based Management Built the World's Largest Private Company "

Pyle, I don't think even ryggy is thick enough to consider Koch Industries a small business, but when the Republican party says they support policies for small businesses this actually includes some billion dollar corporations like the Kochs' because they are privately and family owned. More word games. No wonder Chomsky is able to make sense of it all.

In addition, we should realize, due the liquid helium cooling of infrared telescopes, JWST would work just a few months at the space in similar way, like the Planck telescope. It's not replacement of Hubble, which serves well for thirty years.

Frank, what's wrong with govt policies that support ALL businesses, but favor none?Policies supported by 'progressives' punish some businesses and favor others, depending upon how much they donate to Obama.

Europe wants to return to Islamic Sharia Law??? Really?At which point in European history would we have been governed by Sharia Law and why the inference that the US has saved us from it?

He's referring to the Inquisition when millions were killed in the name of the loving godman jesus.

We'll manage quite happily on our own thank you

Actually, youre doomed (again). Youre being eaten alive by the Enemy Within (again). If youre smart youll emigrate like einstein. Princeton is a very nice place to live.

You know - ryggesoggysocks - informed posters [me] understand that humans require BOTH progressives/libs and regressives/neocons because EITHER mode can and will be subverted and thus will inevitably decay over time.

One must occasionally supplant the other both to give people the illusion that govt responds to their entreaties, and to maintain the illusion that they have a choice. Which they most obviously do not. Only democracy enables this danse macabre to occur.

Europe wants to return to Islamic Sharia Law??? Really?At which point in European history would we have been governed by Sharia Law and why the inference that the US has saved us from it?

He's referring to the Inquisition when millions were killed in the name of the loving godman jesus. We'll manage quite happily on our own thank you

Likely he's talking about this: "The Archbishop of Canterbury says the adoption of certain aspects of Sharia law in the UK "seems unavoidable"." How the US saved Europe from Sharia law, on that I have no idea.

humans require BOTH progressives/libs and regressives/neocons because EITHER mode can and will be subverted and thus will inevitably decay over time.

And we need a majority in the middle to keep the political polar ends balanced. The problem comes in when policies lead to a gap between the haves and the have-nots. This situation moves people away from the middle to the political ends of the spectrum.

Frank, what's wrong with govt policies that support ALL businesses, but favor none?Policies supported by 'progressives' punish some businesses and favor others, depending upon how much they donate to Obama.

Actually any group in power gives special favor to those who supported them and punishes those who supported their opponents. This has happened time and time again on both sides, and will likely keep happening until we the public decide to put a stop to such foolishness. Some only see the "bad guys" doing this and either have blinders on or make excuses when it comes to the corruption of the "good guys".

This is the key. We have laws in place that greatly limit the ability of the interested person from finding out where the money is coming from. Also problematic is that a large portion of the media is controlled by parties that contribute large sums to politics. The media needs to be independent of the political process. The media needs to be digging in to everywhere looking for the story. Checking up to make sure that everybody is behaving in a responsible manner; i.e. acting as watchdogs.

In addition we need more independent agencies like NAS, mentioned above, that can watch over the regulators and federal agencies to make sure they are doing what they should be.

The quid pro quo that goes on in Washington needs to be curtailed. Both parties are guilty of it, but I contend that one side is much more guilty than the other.

Go back to the example mentioned above with Reagan and the hostages in Iran.

The Reagan/Bush campaign is alleged to have gone around the Carter administration before the election and contacted the Iranians, undermining Carter's attempt to bring the hostages home. In exchange for holding on to the hostages, again, it is alleged, American arms were supplied to Iran. Such arms shipments began in 1981 shortly after Reagan was in office. The investigation in 1991 was shut down by a bogus alibi for Casey that the 1st Bush administration knew was wrong.http://smirkingch...surfaces

Nixon's sabotage of Johnson's attempts at peace in Vietnam are another, much worse, example of the same election manipulating treason.

The Democratic Party has its share of examples of conflicts of interests, but I have yet to see such blatant examples of outright treason. One side IS worse than the other.

Yup. Ain't it great? I haven't read any of Parry's books, but the article is pretty straightforward. I would probably rank it on a scale of deranged to reliable (1-10) around 9. His source seems to be documents from daddy Bush's presidential library on this, so I'll trust them.

Limiting power is fine. I'm not against that. But it needs to be done intelligently. Cutting businesses free to do whatever they want with the market being the only means of control is a terrible idea. The federal government is a necessary evil in my book. You just go way too far ryggy. I think it has something to do with your fantasy of how companies would self regulate their behavior.

The answer to the problem isn't easy. But it absolutely isn't "don't give poor people money", which can be construed from your position. I'm pretty sure you don't think it is the answer either.

I was thinking specifically of those in business or otherwise who didn't perhaps "need" the money, but who knew the value of it in terms of making more money with more resources. These people didn't default nearly as often because they were used to having and investing with money.

To me the single greatest failure is in the loan organizations who knowingly convinced less experienced people they could take on more debt than they could actually handle. Your common consumer wants to believe that the banking loan officer knows what they are talking about and thinks they can trust them. When in fact the loan officers are getting bonuses for how many millions in loan contracts they sign, not neccisarily secure loans.

Pyle, business is regulated by their competitors and their customers. They are not free to legally plunder like the govt can.

Like Mr. John D. Rockefeller? He crushed any competition and wasn't shy about using unsavory means to do it. He is an example of capitalism unchecked and people like him belong in the history books. Sure, later in life he contributed to charities, more it seems out of a sense of guilt than true charity, much less philanthropic altruism.

Don't get me wrong. I like capitalisim, I like self interest. They are great motivators. But, there need to be ground rules to ensure everyone who wants to compete gets a fair shot. The only entity that can mediate and enforce those rules is a fairly representative centralized government. In addition, the only entity that has the means to protect the public from corporate mischief is again a representitive government. How many kids would still be chewing on lead pencils in school if not for government?

When in fact the loan officers are getting bonuses for how many millions in loan contracts they sign, not neccisarily secure loans.

Then that bank deserves to fail.

True. But I noticed a complete lack of concern for the duped consumer. A consumer that no longer has the ability to influence that business, do to their bankruptcy, I might add.

How can millions of misled bankrupt consumers affect the banks that screwed them over for simple blind greed? They don't have buying power. They have no ability to establish a relationship with the banks that survived, which are most, btw. Government is the only way, hence our current political mood.

Also, when goverment failed to step in and address the needs of its workers in America (Truman administration) the unions gained a powerful foothold in our workforce. Essencially a shadow or third goverment that only came into existance because the needs for safety and equitable pay were not considered the responsibility of government. I dislike unions and have little use for them, but then I have always worked for employers who generally looked out for my safety (even if they didn't always pay well). So ryggesogn2, if you dislike goverment involvement you may want to consider what happens or what you get when government fails to get involved.

That was the opinion of the muckraker whose family lost business to Rockefeller, but the customers buying his products liked the reduced price and higher quality kerosene his market efficiencies wrought.

Don't get me wrong. I like capitalisim, I like self interest.

I don't believe you.

How can millions of misled bankrupt consumers affect the banks that screwed them over for simple blind greed?

Vote out all 'progressive' politicians.

The only entity that can mediate and enforce those rules is a fairly representative centralized government. In addition, the only entity that has the means to protect the public from corporate mischief is again a representitive government.

But it is the govt that created the rules and won't enforce them. The central govt refuses to enforce immigration laws so the decentralized govts (states) must.

Govenment however is often not the best answer either. There are govenment programs that are putting people into default status. People who were struggling and are now out of thier homes with ruined credit. As a consumer and a citizen you have to watch out for both government and business. Neither are your friend and both want to take you for whatever they think they can get out of you. Caveat Emptor!

How can millions of misled bankrupt consumers affect the banks that screwed them over for simple blind greed?

Vote out all 'progressive' politicians.

Hmmmm. You know you are talking about a bill that was authored by three Republicans and signed by Billy Clinton with overwhelming approval from both parties in both the House and the Senate, right? So, which "progressive" politicians should be voted out? All 450 or so who voted for the bill, and only keep the 60 or so who voted against it? So, if we voted all of these "progressives" out of office we will be left with about 15 Republicans and 45 Democrats. Some how I don't really think you want what you wish for.

How can millions of misled bankrupt consumers affect the banks that screwed them over for simple blind greed?

Vote out all 'progressive' politicians.

No. That is an unsatisfactory answer because you did not show that you understood the context of my question. In the hypothetical scenario that the market and its regulations are how you would like them to be, how does the market self correct when the consumers that are hurt have no way of changing the market due to their bankruptcy? You think consumer voting works better than political voting, right? How can this possibly work in the situation we are discussing at this time?

If banks did operate in a free market and were not protected by the govt from failure, they would either be quite conservative or they would be out of business.

A bank in MA was in trouble from the FDIC for being too conservative:"A Massachusetts bank that has defied the odds and remained free of bad loans amid the economic crisis is now being criticized by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. for the cautious business practices that caused its rare success.

Hmmmm. You know you are talking about a bill that was authored by three Republicans and signed by Billy Clinton with overwhelming approval from both parties in both the House and the Senate, right? So, which "progressive" politicians should be voted out? All 450 or so who voted for the bill, and only keep the 60 or so who voted against it? So, if we voted all of these "progressives" out of office we will be left with about 15 Republicans and 45 Democrats. Some how I don't really think you want what you wish for.

"A Massachusetts bank that has defied the odds and remained free of bad loans amid the economic crisis is now being CRITICIZED by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. for the cautious business practices that caused its rare success.

They received a bad rating by the FDIC, the govt agency that regulates them."the FDIC slapped East Bridgewater Savings with a rare 'needs to improve' rating after evaluating the bank under the Community Reinvestment Act."http://www.bizjou...p;page=1

'needs to improve' "under the COMMUNITY REINVESTMENT ACT" - So what? Of course they got that rating UNDER THAT ACT. They weren't helping the community reinvest. Duh.

That's still not even punishment, anyway. What, now they have to pay 0.001 percent for govt paper? Probably not even that.

That's all still irrelevant to my question. I wonder why you are ignoring it. Oh sorry, you aren't quite ignoring it, merely attacking the opposite as a straw man. Afraid of addressing holes in your delusions?

Your opinion on that will not keep me up at night. Apparently you are only reading what you want to. If you don't believe me on an opinion that I have, and which has backing based on what I have written in the past, where does that leave you? As a working taxpayer there is nothing that I like about socialism. "NAZI" was the German version of the National Socialist Party after all. Socialism likes taking my hard earned money and using it for nefarious reasons. There is only one positive thing about communism and that is that every healthy person of working age is required to have a job, whether you like it or not. If you can't find a job one will be found for you. If you refuse to work you go to jail. I strongly dislike all the leaches and cheats we have on our social system. I like capitalism because it provides opportunities based on the skill and work ethic of the worker

There is only one positive thing about communism and that is that every healthy person of working age is required to have a job, whether you like it or not. If you can't find a job one will be found for you. If you refuse to work you go to jail.

As a working taxpayer there is nothing that I like about socialism. "NAZI" was the German version of the National Socialist Party after all. Socialism likes taking my hard earned money and using it for nefarious reasons.

Like Infrastructure, Education, and Healthcare for everybody -even your old Granny, who never held a 1040 job?

I strongly dislike all the leaches and cheats we have on our social system. I like capitalism because it provides opportunities based on the skill and work ethic of the worker.

Don't you mean "based upon the corporate need to fill a job position"? Are you familiar with the terms "downsizing", "prevailing wage", "underemployed", offshoring"? Hell -have you ever heard of WalMart?

What's that? Of course you've heard of them -you're a shareholder in WalMart?!?

Ryggesogn2, how do expect Capitalism to survive despite the steady march of automation? Do you really believe there are enough middle management positions out there for everyone or do you believe with systemic unemployment people should wither and die?

Just to make this clearer, what I am trying to ask you is:

Assume automation increases to the point that there just aren't enough jobs. (Please just accept this for the sake of this question.) How would you handle the unemployed?

So you aren't willing to admit the logical implications of Capitalism.

That nagging feeling you get when you consider such notions is called "cognitive dissonance". You avoid it at all costs, but it's valuable in the same way pain is. But instead of learning not to touch the hot iron, you fill your mind with numbing ideology.

So since you aren't willing to consider what would happen under a capitalist system without the possibility of adequate employment, please tell me what will prevent automation from leaving a sizable chunk of the population unemployed?

So you aren't willing to admit the logical implications of Capitalism.

It is a false assumption.When there was no automation, all work was by hand, craft guilds dominated, the world economy was not very prosperous.As automation increased, and economic liberty increased, prosperity increased. I don't see any reason for this to stop. You need to prove your theory.

Yup. Sure it did, up until about the 1980's when the taxes on the rich were lowered by Reagan. Then this giant sucking sound started, only the jobs didn't go to Mexico, instead, money started floating to the top of the food chain out of average American's bank accounts. And when they couldn't suck any more, the rich loaned them money and took all their assets too. The plan was for it to "trickle down" to the commoners. Instead it seems to just turn into bigger piles for the rich. So the top 1% is more economically free and prosperous, while the bottom 90% struggle to put food on the table.

I don't see any reason for this to stop.

Me either. The rich will get richer and the poor will continue to struggle.

Nice, change the topic. How about explaining how the hairdresser economy of the US is going to survive in the age of automation? Where all the labor intensive jobs are sent to third world countries and the technologically advance industries employ 1/10th of the work force major industry used to.

What is your answer for the 90%? Let the market sort it out? Pretty sure they'll just start dying or living in dirt huts.

But you don't really care do you ryggy? Do you?

We need the government to level the playing field. Enforce rules. Provide for the common defense. Maintain and protect the commons. Fund science research without a profit motive.

(btw, I do agree that we DON'T need the government to employ everybody. We need to enact policies and regulations that promote job growth. Forced labor in socialized industry is NOT the answer.)

Like cutting regulations and lower taxes?There would be full employment in the USA in a month if Obama lifted restrictions on oil and gas exploration and extraction.How do you automate oil drilling?No justification has been given supporting the assumption that automation destroys employment or business opportunities.

As automation increased, and economic liberty increased, prosperity increased.I don't see any reason for this to stop.You need to prove your theory.

Automation leads to a loss of jobs where automated. There is no reason to believe automation will slow or reverse. Eventually all manufacturing jobs will be automated. Service jobs after that. Probably the medical profession and managerial positions eventually with the advent of sufficient AI. It is extremely obvious to anyone willing to examine it that there will at some point be an absolute irreversible shortage of jobs.

What is done in this situation? Regulate automation so people have jobs again? That's hardly smart. I'm not for returning to guilds as Marjon implied.

Do we let a sizable chunk of the population starve? Try finding a state to ask that has tried this. You might be hard pressed.

So we're down to two options. Provide for basic human needs or... well I'll leave it to Marjon to Godwin me :-)

When there was no automation, all work was by hand, craft guilds dominated, the world economy was not very prosperous.As automation increased, and economic liberty increased, prosperity increased.

You imply a smooth transition which is rarely the case. Craftsmen revolted in germany because automation put them out of work. About the same time marx and engels were defining communism which was the revolt of labor against the technocrats whose automation was pricing human labor out of the market.

Technology increases faster than the ability of the workforce to adjust. Always. And its getting worse because tech development is increasing geometrically. Besides this western economies are struggling with floods of immigrants due to malthusian geometry in religionist cultures, made even WORSE by climate change.

Sure, you deny any and all of these factors or think draconian measures will fix them. So did that religionist norwegian guy. We'll see how far that gets them.

This is a question for engineers to answer. You watched the robots at work on the gulf oil head? It will work something like that. But not for awhile I suppose. I expect that mining will be fully automated before too long.

I'm sure that, along with lots of water, we will find lots of abiogenic hydrocarbons beneath the martian dunes. Because we find them throughout the solar system. They will be extracted and refined robotically.

If a 'progressive' education actually taught people how to think and how to be an entrepreneur, there would be no need to worry.Automatons need engineers and technicians that know how to think. Our present education system and society does not support such education.

Because everyone can be an engineer and technician. (I'm not talking about abilities either. You think an economy would work that way?) What about when those jobs are automated? You keep dodging the obvious.

For capitalism to exist in a world with ever increasing automation, eventually the unemployed will have to be killed. Period. Full Stop. If you don't kill them they starve. If you let them starve, they overthrow the society. There are plenty of historical examples.

So either you have to have some sort of safety net (though I'm not sure that would really be an accurate term once the majority of the population is in it) or you have to cull them.

Due to the steady march of automation capitalism will either:

1) Fall at the hands of popular uprisings

2) Kill off those who would revolt

-or-

3) Become more socialist.

Deny it all you want, but these are your options. Which would you pick?

Selectively cutting regulations and lowering taxes might help promote job growth, but wholesale it won't. Bush did it and it didn't work.

There would be full employment in the USA in a month if Obama lifted restrictions on oil and gas exploration and extraction.

You are an idiot if you believe that.

No justification has been given supporting the assumption that automation destroys employment or business opportunities.

No justification is needed. Efficiency is the measure of the relative amount of work a person can do. Automation increases worker efficiency. More automation, higher efficiency, fewer workers needed to get the work done. AI WILL make humans unnecessary. Deal with it.

Our present education system and society does not support such education.

Oops. But we know what you meant and agree; the education system needs an overhaul. But privatization, as you prefer, isn't the overhaul it needs.

-Dont worry nobodys talking. They dont have to. Theyre all ROBOTS. Soon youll see little robot maintenance buggys scurrying around in between. Soon these robots will be manufactured by other robots and programmed by software. SOON.

I think that is a big part of what this extended economic dark age is for; to prepare for a swift transition in the nature of your war between the states. Or the way the great depression enabled industry to reconfigure for ww2.

I have noticed that some companies advertise products that are handmade. People pay a premium for this: Roll Royce, Rolex ....Frank's worries are a symptom of the 'progressive's' arrogance.Automation will FREE people to create handcrafted products and services for customers who can then afford them.

Now I see where you are getting your mis-information about automation."According to President Obama, his Administration's anti-free-market, anti-business, and pro-union policies are not to blame for the high rate of involuntary unemployment. No, instead we are to believe a root cause of that problem is too much automation."http://www.americ...yth.html"The belief that machines cause unemployment, when held with any logical consistency, leads to preposterous conclusions. Not only must we be causing unemployment with every technological improvement we make today, but primitive man must have started causing it with the first efforts he made to save himself from needless toil and sweat.""In brief, on net balance machines, technological improvements, economies and efficiency do not throw men out of work."http://www.fee.or.../#0.1_L8

There is a name for an economic system where very few people own exclusively handmade items made by the vast majority of the rest of society.

It's called feudalism.

They had full employment didn't they?

But of course you intentionally mis-characterized my point. With automation, the cost of commodity items drop, productivity rises, real wages rise, and new markets are created for specialty items like craft beers, specialty hand made goat cheeses,....the list goes on and on and on....The list is endless because the needs and wants of people are limitless.

Frank's fear of automation is unfounded as automation has continuously raised the world's standard of living since it began.

Once again, the 'progressive' fears what he doesn't understand and resorts to violence to assuage his fear.

new markets are created for specialty items like craft beers, specialty hand made goat cheeses,

You still don't get it, do you? I've been here before with you.

I make craft beer, and I see no reason why automation cannot do the same. It's just chemistry with a little help from our friendly neighbor, the yeast. The only difference between PBR and DogFish Head is complexity and originality. Why can't this be programmed? If you don't know, ask a programmer/chemist.

I think you put too high a value on "hand-made" products. They don't buy them for the process, but for the quality. Automated quality is increasing with efficiency.

I'm not saying I /want/ this to happen. I'm saying it /will/ happen whether I like it or not. (But, just because some machine can design and make better beer than me, doesn't make it less fun of a hobby.)

With automation, the cost of commodity items drop, productivity rises, real wages rise, and new markets are created for specialty items like craft beers, specialty hand made goat cheeses,....

You left out a factor in your equation; the number of workers per unit produced drops. Real wages rise for fewer workers, you claim; but in reality more workers per job opening FORCES employers to pay workers less, as their competitors are also cutting wages.

This is what generates worker backlash in the form of unions and communism. The emergence of these organizations are direct evidence that automation makes jobs disappear faster than the workforce can adjust. This is a chronic condition.cont

(actually I meant to say that in marjons mind, real wages rise for MORE workers)

Labor is just another commodity in the economic equation. When there is a demand for labor the price goes up. Employers naturally look for cheaper alternatives, and find it in technology. Automation is cheaper than labor. The only reason labor has persisted to the extent that it has in many markets is due to the need for consumers of the goods they produce.

But this is changing. Fewer individual consumers with more money are buying more expensive products which is driving more complex technologies. While this accelerates the pace of innovation, and is also better for the environment as it produces fewer more durable items, it is bad for the increasing numbers of people who are left out of the loop entirely.

Tech development is no longer being driven by cheap disposables. Ordinary people are left to consume only information, like those starving people in somalia with their cell phones and logo t-shirt

What is the 'progressive' education system doing to help people be less ordinary?

Hmmm...Well Jerry Brown enabling funding of education for illegals, and he might use public funds to educate people who dont pay taxes...

"Gov. Jerry Brown signed a law Monday easing access to privately funded financial aid for undocumented college students. He also signaled that he was likely to back a more controversial measure allowing those students to seek state-funded tuition aid in the future."

-Which is funny. Brown knows I guess that the people who have the gumption to come here in the first place are better investments?

US secondary education has 2 primary functions: 1) to keep people from propagating during peak reproductive years; and 2) to teach them to be good consumers.

Population control and participation in the economy are extremely important to the continued health of western culture. Due to wide variations in acumen, most people sadly are incapable of being 'less' ordinary.

I make craft beer, and I see no reason why automation cannot do the same.

Then do it if it is so easy.But if your customers don't want beer made by robots, you may not sell much.

Never said I sold it. Care to address the implications of the truth I gave you? Naahhhhh. That would end the convo, and the convo is all the deluded shill has here.

Care to address the issue that maybe customers don't want machine made food?Please tell us how you will teach a robot to pick the right grape at the right time or when that barrel of JD is ready to bottle.Luddites have been fretting over automation for hundreds of years. Are the Luddites dissatisfied with the prosperity and wealth that automation has created? Or are they angry that their fear has no merit?

LMAO you are calling us luddites, yet your mechanism for the survival of capitalism is that people won't want to buy machine made items even though someday they will all be better than their handmade counterparts.

Do you even read what you type?

Read: I AM NOT AGAINST AUTOMATION. I am against allowing people wither and die despite absolutely no reason for this to happen other than a psychotic need for a "free market".

Please tell us how you will teach a robot to pick the right grape at the right time or when that barrel of JD is ready to bottle

Uh the same way you do people only machines will do it more thoroughly, more consistantly, and CHEAPER?

"Throughout the history of wine, winemakers would use the sugar and acid levels of the grape as a guide in determining ripeness. Early winemakers tasted the grapes to gauge ripeness. Modern winemakers use a refractometer to measure sugar levels and Brix or titration tests (using an indicator such as phenolphthalein) to determine the titratable acidity within the grape." WIKI

What's so hard to understand that a truly FREE market requires rules to prevent abuses, just as a free society requires laws?

The rules are very simple. I can't force you buy and you can't force me to sell.

You can and I can. If you are the only supplier of something I have to have (because you hired the mob to run everybody else out of town), I must buy from you. And I can do the same thing to you. Thats pretty simple, no?

I can cheat and you can cheat. I can hire thugs and you can hire thugs. I can adulterate your tylenol and you can adulterate mine. I can unfairly corner supply and so can you.

Without laws to prevent abuse and govt to enforce them, cheaters will always tend to win.

can cheat and you can cheat. I can hire thugs and you can hire thugs. I can adulterate your tylenol and you can adulterate mine. I can unfairly corner supply and so can you.

There is no win-win here.'Progressives' can't understand the wealth is unlimited and that aggression (cheating, lying, etc.) is not a win-win and destroys wealth for all. Ultimately then it must be the 'progressive' who initiates the lying, the cheating, the violence in economic relations providing him with the excuse to create a govt protection racket.That's how the mob does it, right? "Gee, it would be a shame if your store window was broken or if you fell down and broke your leg. Give us $100 a week and we won't break your leg, or window."

'Progressives' can't understand the wealth is unlimited and that aggression (cheating, lying, etc.) is not a win-win and destroys wealth for all.

Ah thats hopeless prejudice and you know it.

That's how the mob does it, right? "Gee, it would be a shame if your store window was broken or if you fell down and broke your leg. Give us $100 a week and we won't break your leg, or window."

They only do this if there is money to be made. They will do this if there is a market for protection, and no govt entity to step in to protect the little guy.

I keep pointing out that it takes an interplay of BOTH sides to make things work for any length of time. Either side will seek to gain total control and if they do so they will tend toward excess and corruption.

So youve got to have some hokey device like 'democracy' which allows either side to be played off against the other.

Obviously this sort of system has to be Managed from behind the scenes in order for it to Function properly.

"...King Lincoln Bronzeville v. Blackwell case includes a copy of the Ohio Secretary of State election production system configuration that was in use in Ohio's 2004 presidential election when there was a sudden and unexpected shift in votes for George W. Bush," according to Bob Fitrakis, columnist at http://www.freepress.org and co-counsel in the litigation and investigation.

"Evidence from the filing suggests that... the private computer firms hired to manage the electronic voting data were compromised."

"...SmarTech had the capability to "input data" and thus alter the results of Ohio's 2004 election."

"SmarTech was a man in the middle...they were designed specifically to be a man in the middle...a deliberate computer hacking setup."http://www.benzin...election

How many people in the USA do no have some form of photo ID? All states issue state IDs. An ID is required to buy alcohol or cigs. An ID is required to fly. Are we to believe the 10% of the adult population doesn't buy alcohol or cigs or lottery tickets or fly or receive welfare or....Why are the 'progressives' so concerned about voters obtaining IDs? Why don't they propose 'aid' programs to help these 10% obtain IDs?Of course the real purpose of the 'progressive' is voter fraud. They can prove me wrong by supporting IDs to vote and helping those who don't have IDs, if true.

"Liar." was supposed to come after the initial quote. Otto proved his assertion to be false, and I have to believe Marjon has enough common sense to know it was wrong. Marjon rebutted by saying only 'progressives' would cheat the system, which lead to the rest of the post.

Do you guys ever think it's a waste of collective mental energy rebutting this simpleton? We're all clearly intelligent people, and I know we personally get something out of it, but sometimes I wonder if it's worth my time. Maybe I'm just thinking of this now because I only get until mid-September before it starts snowing again, and there's just so much fun outdoor stuff to do in the mountains in the summer.

I know it's nearly criminal to allow this guy's crazy ideology to infect the unwitting, but it just seems like our efforts are a little overkill sometimes.

Yup, the time & effort might be better spent putting pressure on the Tea Party representatives that have been elected. Although they may well share Marj's world view, hopefully they aren't outright crazy and may be more subject to pressure as they are elected; Marj is not.

And for a last bit of unsolicited advice: I don't know what mountains you're living next to, but unless you're way down next to Mexico, grab yourself a pair of fat skis or a split-board, a set of skins, some avi gear (with a *course* if you don't have one) and get to shredding that powder in winter. You may quickly find it's even more fun than hikes and scrambles. Oh, and always bring a friend.

And it will always be more fun than wasting time on Marjon.

Apart from sharpening your eye for misdirection, obfuscation, logical fallacies, etc. it's pretty useless. If he wasn't completely stuck in an irrational ideological rut it might not not, but... There isn't even a substantial audience to sway.

Voter fraud has been going on for quite some time. Democrats are the experts as they know they can't win without it.

But apparently, according to the article, Bush couldnt win without cheating. So neither side can afford NOT to cheat when nothing prevents them from doing so. This is the same in every sort of human endeavor including business.

Govts are needed not to make cheating impossible but to make it less profitable than not cheating. This costs money.

Computer intelligence will make cheating impossible but humans will have to give up their god-protected right to cheat before this can happen. Another reason for religion to end.

So basically you don't consider the thirty years of increasing deregulation and lowering of taxes that have caused the Great Conservative Recession to be evidence against your philosophy.

In your eyes the utter failure of trickle down economics and deregulation as well as the destruction of the American middle class caused by our nation's free trade policies are just proof that we didn't go far enough down the rabbit hole?

And you say Frank was lying. You are severely delusional.

Progressive policies did lead to prosperity in the United States. And for the past thirty years your corporate overlords have done everything they can to raid that wealth and pad their billion dollar bank accounts. Quite successfully I might add.

When was this going on?It could not have been the past thirty years. The Community Reinvestment Act was reinvigorated by Clinton. Freddie and Fannie grew, a whole new cabinet post was created.What deregulation?

To word it another way: how does capitalism prevent 'progressives' from gaming the system?

The function of a limited govt is to protect everyone's private property. A limited federal govt won't have the power to grant favors or special treatment to anyone so lobbying is a waste of time and money. A limited federal govt is also a decentralized govt so people will have more local control of corruption, or corruption will be limited to small jurisdictions from which people and business can readily flee.Capitalism creates competition among limited govts as well. We see what has happened to 'progressive' govts in CA and MI and voters in WI and NJ have elected leaders who are trying to limit 'progressive' gaming.

Do you deny that power has become more centralized in the US since the adoption of the Constitution in 1789?

Everytime a flaw is pointed out in your idealogy you plug your ears and scream 'progressives!' Well I'm going along with this. Tell us how your system will prevent the big bad progressives from ruining it for everyone.

centuries of history show free markets have led to prosperity.'Progressive' policies do not.

In the beginning of the Growth phase of the Cycle this is true. New markets and ventures create prosperity, and pops begin to swell.

But soon this begins to tax staples and raw materials supply. More money begins chasing fewer goods and inflation sets in. Competition heats up and employers seek to cut corners in order to maintain profits. Cheating, corruption, and manipulation ensue. Labor responds to decreases in real income and benefits. This is the Decay phase of the Cycle.

Laws and regulations are passed in response to these abuses and govt grows in order to manage them. The Collapse phase of the Cycle approaches.

This is all Inevitable to one extent or another. Leaders know this. History tells THEM this marjon. Knowing that this Cycle will always lead to ruin and misery, wouldn't you expect Them to want to Manipulate it to their advantage??

"YOU do not have the right to speak for an entire nation of people and only left Afghanistan a few days ago." - 210

So long America. It is so nice to see you go.

The world will not miss you.

Something tells me that if it was not for the US and rest of the evil capitalist Western world sharing their knowledge, youd be growing rice somewhere in the third world with your dad and have life expectancy of 30 years or so.

"Unless we can make the philosophic foundations of a free society once more a living intellectual issue, and its implementation a task which challenges the ingenuity and imagination ofour liveliest minds. But if we can regain that belief in the power of ideas which was the mark of liberalism at its best, the battle is not lost. The intellectual revival of liberalism is already underway in many parts of the world. Will it be in time?"http://aetds.hnuc...9875.pdf

Of course Hayek is referring to the classical liberal, not the modern 'liberal'/socialist/'progressive'.For a book written in 1944, "Road to Serfdom" to be #431 on Amazon's list is a sign of hope."Amazon Bestsellers Rank: #431 in Books "

The socialist state of Norway doesn't even trust their police to have weapons."When a man dressed in a police uniform began slaughtering young people at a Norwegian summer camp last week, one of the first to be killed was a real police officer named Trond Berntsen, who for years had worked in security at the camp.

Whether Berntsen tried to stop the gunman is still being debated. But facing a man carrying multiple guns and ample ammunition, there was little he could do. Like most other police officers here, he had no weapon.

By law, Norwegian police officers must have authorization from their chief to gain access to a firearm, but they have rarely needed to ask, until recently. Violent crime has been steadily increasing, jolting a society used to leaving doors unlocked and children to play without fear."http://o.seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2015728616_norway26.html

Six hours before the attacks, Breivik posted a YouTube video urging conservatives to "embrace martyrdom"

Dagens Næringsliv writes that Breivik sought to start a Norwegian version of the Tea Party movement in cooperation with the owners of document.no, but that they, after expressing initial interest, ultimately turned down his proposal because he did not have the contacts he promised.

The introductory chapter of the manifesto defining "Cultural Marxism" is a copy of Political Correctness: A Short History of an Ideology by the Free Congress Foundation. The text also copies sections of the Unabomber manifesto, without giving credit, while exchanging the words "leftists" for "cultural Marxists" and "black people" for "muslims".

In the manifesto, Breivik considers himself "a real European hero", "the saviour of Christianity" and "the greatest defender of cultural-conservatism in Europe since 1950".

I visited family in Stavanger in 1983. They were a young couple, classic blonde, blue eyed Scandinavians. For some reason they could not have children and looked into adoption. The govt wouldn't allow them to adopt a Norwegian or even a European child. The only children that could be adopted were African or Asian.They chose not to adopt. Were they racist or did they just want to have children that may look like them?Norway and Sweden have opened their doors to third world immigrants who have not assimilated to their culture. "Although it is not stated, most of the immigrant perpetrators are Muslims. In one of the rare instances where the Swedish media actually revealed the truth, the newspaper Aftonbladet reported several years ago that 9 out of 10 of the most criminal ethnic groups in Sweden came from Muslim countries. "http://www.brusse...node/938In the USA, the US govt is failing to control immigration and states that try are being attacked.

Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet. The boys explain, laughingly, that there is a thrilling sensation in your body when youre robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if youve succeeded, it simply feels good. Its so easy to rob Swedes, so easy. We rob every single day, as often as we want to, whenever we want to. The immigrant youth regard the Swedes as stupid and cowardly: The Swedes dont do anything, they just give us the stuff. Theyre so wimpy. The young robbers do not plan their crimes: No, we just see some Swedes that look rich or have nice mobile phones and then we rob them.http://www.brusse...node/938Frank:Norwegian govt doesn't trust their people to have any weapons either. The govt confiscates metal cowboy boot tips from returning tourists.

"This is urgent. When enough people feel that the system is no longer working and that the social contract has been breached, the entire fabric of democratic society could unravel. What happens when the welfare state system breaks down, and there is no longer enough money to grease the increasing tensions between immigrants and native Europeans? And what happens when people discover that their own leaders, through the EU networks and the Euro-Arab Dialogue described by Bat Yeor in her book Eurabia, have been encouraging all these Muslims to settle here in the first place? There will be massive unemployment, and tens of millions of people will feel angry, scared and humiliated, betrayed by the system, by society and by their own democratic leaders."http://www.brusse...node/938This was written in 2006 and once again demonstrates the failure of 'progressive' policies and prescience of conservatives.

"When she first arrived in Sweden after her rescue from a Nazi concentration camp, Judith Popinski was treated with great kindness.

She raised a family in the city of Malmo, and for the next six decades lived happily in her adopted homeland - until last year.

In 2009, a chapel serving the city's 700-strong Jewish community was set ablaze. Jewish cemeteries were repeatedly desecrated, worshippers were abused on their way home from prayer, and "Hitler" was mockingly chanted in the streets by masked men.

"I never thought I would see this hatred again in my lifetime, not in Sweden anyway," Mrs Popinski told The Sunday Telegraph.

"This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now." "http://www.telegr...mes.htmlIs this why the 'progressives' support Muslims, they hate Jews?

"And like all over the Western world, some on the Left, along with Arabs and Muslims and anarchists, have formed a political alliance against Israel and Jews. They demonstrate together, and in Sweden, they vote together. Muslims are a core constituency of the Left.

The immigrant issue a big reason the right-wing Swedish Democrats are the fastest growing political party in the country.

Matthias Karlsson is the Swedish Democrats' Press Secretary

"In many parts of Sweden, people are, as I said, fed up," Karlsson said. "And they're being pushed too far and they want to make a stand."

Fascist and Bigoted?

Swedish Democrats, who stand for traditional Christian values and limits on immigration, have been stigmatized by the Swedish media as fascist and bigoted."http://www.cbn.co...299.aspxThe same happens to people in the USA who support Christian values and limits on immigration.

""He was making outlandish comments condemning our foreign policy and claimed Muslims had the right to rise up and attack Americans," Col Lee told Fox News.

"He said Muslims should stand up and fight the aggressor and that we should not be in the war in the first place." He said that Maj Hasan said he was "happy" when a US soldier was killed in an attack on a military recruitment centre in Arkansas in June. An American convert to Islam was accused of the shootings. "http://www.telegr...-up.html

"Although it is not stated, most of the immigrant perpetrators are Muslims. In one of the rare instances where the Swedish media actually revealed the truth, the newspaper Aftonbladet reported several years ago that 9 out of 10 of the most criminal ethnic groups in Sweden came from Muslim countries."

This was much the same with Italian immigrants who had their inner-city tribal enclaves. They had their own 'govt' and law enforcement which collected taxes in the form of protection money. They did not consider preying on outsiders crime. "Why fight for other people?" -sonny corleone.

Inward altruism and outward animosity - hallmarks of tribalism. Immigration is something civilization has been dealing with since the beginning. I had lots of friends at the catholic school - they were the cool kids.

Reintegration of the species MUST occur. It is a continuous Process. The Urge to Diverge is strong and ruinous to global harmony. Even tho completely natural.

Leaders know this. We can see how immigrants were enticed with multiculturalism and good jobs. In the US Hispanics were invited north with open borders, jobs in an overheated economy, and lax laws allowing them to settle.

But it was not made easy for them. They were not given visas. They had to pay bribes and walk to get here, and they had to stay low and behave themselves. Only the most ambitious and resourceful immigrate successfully; the dregs are left with the misery and war and famine of chronic overpop.

This Formula is what has made America great. The melting pot is really a great Refinery, attracting the best for amalgamation. Europe now gets to play the Game.

And for a last bit of unsolicited advice: I don't know what mountains you're living next to, but unless you're way down next to Mexico, grab yourself a pair of fat skis or a split-board, a set of skins, some avi gear (with a *course* if you don't have one) and get to shredding that powder in winter. You may quickly find it's even more fun than hikes and scrambles. Oh, and always bring a friend.

I'm a backcountry nut. I live South Park, CO and work in Summit County. I'm 30min from Breck, Keystone, A-Basin, Copper, Loveland and 45 from Vail/Beaver Creek and Winter Park. I climbed and snowboarded Mt. Sherman (14k') last Saturday and I'm doing Rollins Pass near Winter Park this Saturday. 57 degree north-facing pitch. I'm going with a Mt.Rescue team leader/nurse. We got so much snow this year, I plan on riding on my B-day in late August. I had more than 40 6inch plus powder days last season. One 30 inch day huckin off 15 foot cliffs all day. I love Colorado. :D

Ah, what can I say? You're one lucky SOB Skultch! I'm mostly suck in the bunny hills back east. For a couple weeks every season or two I do get to head out to BC to see the family there and take advantage of the fact my brother used to work as a backcountry ski guide and now for Parcs Canada. If ever we mange to sync vacation times, we've even considered heading up to the Yukon or Alaska for a ski trip.

Anywho, I've already PMed you back. I enjoy talking powder more than arguments with Marjon, but PhysOrg forums are really more about the latter ;)

The firm said Thursday the AAA rating was warranted, citing among other things, the country's "high degree of economic resiliency" and deficit-cutting efforts by the federal and provincial governments.

It based its assumption about resiliency on Canada's 'high per capita income, the large scale of the economy and its diversity, including natural resource industries and a competitive manufacturing sector, as well as a well-developed and well-regulated financial market.'"

"competitive manufacturing sector" IS in there, but isn't a point of contention with anyone on this board. (All those against a competitive manufacturing sector, please write "Aye!")

"deficit-cutting efforts" are also there, and AFAIC also non-contentious.

But, when Moody's says a "well regulated" market we all know they mean *by government* (and yes, that is actually what the Canadian government *does*).

When *you* say it, you mean "properly self-regulated". Not the same thing. So you're basically ignoring Moody's opinion on this and putting your own above it.

Problem is your version is based on an ideal impossible to achieve or maintain in the real world because humans are subject to irrational, parasitic or predatory behavior and network effects. This results in self-regulated markets only being META-STABLE. This is where Moody's definition becomes the only one that matters.

"According to Ed Clark, CEO of TD Bank, The message in the US is itsyour responsibility to meet our rules. In Canada, the responsibility is to run the institution right.""OSFI requires Canadian banks to hold 7% of Tier 1 capital and 10% totalcapital, above the Basel II requirements of 4% and 8%."

There are few other factors that contributed to a more sound Canadian system. The key seems to be that because the Canadian govt commits to being a lender of last resort, it demands banks stay sound.In the US, politicians conspire with banks to buy votes and risk is socialized. All with the express consent of the govt.The US economic system was more prosperous and stable before Federal Reserve. Bad regulations are worse than no regulations.

It's more of an area. Before CO was a state, there was North Park, Middle Park, and South Park regions. South Park has stuck in the language, I think mostly because it is an easily defined basin. There's this huge wide valley completely surrounded by mtns, that's all over 9,000' elevation. It's kinda weird seeing cattle ranching done so high in the mtns, but there it is.

If you wanted to specify the town in the show, you'd pick Fairplay, which is at the North end of SP, and the county seat of Park County. I live way up on a mtn above that incorporated town.

"According to Ed Clark, CEO of TD Bank, The message in the US is its your responsibility to meet our rules. In Canada, the responsibility is to run the institution right."...http://www.nsi-in...r%29.pdf

Wow, Marjon! I'm actually stunned. That was was an unusually good post, and a very educational article. Lots of highly interesting stuff in there. Mind you, I DON'T UNDERSTAND how this ties into your laissez-faire market self regulation approach, but I do agree with virtually all of what the author write. I was actually aware of most of the stuff that he deals with, but hadn't seen some of it in as much detail.

Bad regulations are worse than no regulations.

I generally agree with this, but...given the context, are you saying that the US financial sector is a victim of bad regulation, whereas in Canada, fewer but stronger regulations contribute to a more robust sector?

"Matt Winkler, editor-in-chief of BloombergNews, noted 'Canadians are like hobbits. They are just not as rapacious as Americans'"

Gotta love it, eh Mr. Frodo? :)

But anyway, NOTE:

"It is also certainly clear that Canadian banks were more strictly regulated, that the Canadian state played a more assertive role in the financial system, and that banks accordingly avoided more of the excessively aggressive market practices than was the case in the US and other jurisdictions that were harder hit by the crisis."

And:

"The Canadian experience is therefore a testament to the importance of regulation and restraint on the most risky bank activities in preventing crisis. As such it is a repudiation of pre-crisis conventional wisdom favoring heavy reliance on markets and light-touch regulation."

Now, Marjon, if you're trying to say US banks should be run more like their Canadian counterparts, well, who am I to argue!

Marjon, Canadian banks have a reputation of being "coddled" by the Canadian government. The federal government imposes strict and more demanding regulations and norms on our banks (as you yourself noted above) but a the same time protects them more (my own mortgage is ultimatly covered by the CMHC, for example).

The key seems to be that because the Canadian govt commits to being a lender of last resort, it demands banks stay sound.

What you write here sort of comes off like what I just wrote in the above paragraph (not sure), but I don't think there is one single key; Porter describes 7 factors that work together.

In the US, politicians conspire with banks to buy votes and risk is socialized. ... The US economic system was more prosperous and stable before Federal Reserve.

I can't speak to this (maybe one of your compatriots can), but I'm surprised that you seem to be advocating for a more, shall we say, paternalistic (Canadian) approach.

While having a smaller budget certainly means you can't do as much--meaning you're *financially* limited--I think the more important limitations stem from Constitutional powers and your Bill of Rights or our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

advocating for a more, shall we say, paternalistic (Canadian) approach.

I don't advocate that. Since ALL govts print their money and control its supply using banks, the govt should ensure their policies don't destroy private property.That happens with inflation. Such recent inflationary periods in the US was in the 90s and after the stock market bubble burst the inflation shifted to housing. Stable money means stable economic activity.If the federal govt can't or won't keep money stable, the market will. Witness the price of gold.

Well, if you are going to count it the same way you do to arrive at 100% (or close to it) for the US, then Canada's debt to GDP is ~80%.

If you count only FEDERAL debt then Canada's is only ~35%. Which is actually not bad (Thank you Paul Martin!). Then again, if you count only FEDERAL dept for the US, your dept to GDP ratio is 60%. Mind you that's not good! But it's still 50% off from the 90% that typically beings to impact overall economic performance. Mind you, Canada had to tackle it's growing deficit problem in the 90s, and you're way better off doing that in the US NOW than when the ratio gets pushed up into the 70% and 80%'s. But you're still not actually in a situation where panic is yet justified.

Seriously, it's not that America is really BROKE: she still technically has plenty in her to actually pay her bills (including, BTW the James Webb! Hell, can we donate?), it's just that she DOESN'T WANT TO!

Who is 'she'? A govt only has the money it can print or TAKE out of its economy.The wealth is owned by the individuals, not the govt.

I said, money is now the legal monopoly of govts and as such they have the responsibility to maintain its value. If they don't, they are then stealing the wealth from the people who create the wealth. Which is why they enforce a monopoly on the money.The prime function of govt is to protect private property. Maintaining stable currency value does that.If the govt chooses to manipulate the money supply for political power, then free market money solutions begin to emerge. You do know the currency in Somalia is quite stable. They only accept one note and its value is the cost to print it.I prefer the govt give up its control of the money as it is too tempting for 'progressive' meddling as we have seen with the mortgage crash.

A PEOPLES only has the money it can print or TAKE out of its OWN economy.The wealth is owned by the THE PEOPLE, not THE PEOPLE.

I said, money is now the legal monopoly of THE PEOPLE and as such they have the responsibility to maintain its value. If THE PEOPLE don't, THE PEOPLE are then stealing the wealth from THEMSELVES, who create the wealth. Which is why THE PEOPLE enforce a monopoly on the THEIR money.

"Life, faculties, productionin other words, individuality,liberty, propertythis is man. And in spite of the cunning of artfulpolitical leaders, these three gifts from God precede allhuman legislation, and are superior to it.Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men havemade laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, andproperty existed beforehand that caused men to make laws inthe first place.""Each of us has a natural rightfrom Godto defend hisperson, his liberty, and his property.""If every person has the right to defendeven by forcehisperson, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a groupof men have the right to organize and support a common forceto protect these rights constantly.""since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common forcefor the same reasoncannot lawfully be used to destroy the person,liberty, or property of individuals or groups."

If it is the PEOPLES money, then ALL the people need to agree, 100%, on how to spend it and how to collect it.

Yeah, well, that's a bit hilarious. You guys can't even get Capitol Hill to pass a critical vote and you (Marjon) want to raise the bar to unanimous consent of 250 000 000 adult Americans, or whatever the number is. That's a little transparent, IMO. You're craaaaaaazzzyyyyyyy!

They only accept one note and its value is the cost to print it. I prefer the govt give up its control of the money as it is too tempting for 'progressive' meddling as we have seen with the mortgage crash.

Wait, wait, wait...you're serious? You're telling us that this is what you want?

YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO PRINT MONEY??? Along with anybody else? Like printing companies?

I'm sorry, I was going to say "you haven't answered any of my questions about the Porter article" but never mind.

Man, now I don't know what to say....you're mind is like an extra-terrestrial landscape to me.

YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO PRINT MONEY??? Along with anybody else? Like printing companies?

Why not? What really matters regarding money is who will accept its value. As we see, the USD is falling meaning many don't want to keep dollars. And that is with the govt monopoly.

You don't get it about Somalia. The value of the bill is the cost to print it. So their is no worry about counterfeiting, unless you can print the money cheaper than anyone else.What is the price of gold now? 1600USD, 3-4 times what it was a few years ago. This means the dollar has lost that much value.Free market currency printed by banks has worked in the past. The key would be do you trust the bank to control its value? It would be in the banks interest for people to use their currency so they would have an incentive to keep its value.Govts have every incentive to INFLATE their currencies.How much does a loonie cost today in USD? Is the loonie stronger or the dollar weaker?

So hang on, at couple of things are clicking together here. You want to have the right to print your own money, and that ties into the monopoly on gvnt. violence thing, because as long as printing your own dough is a crime government appointed men with guns are eventually going to show up at your door.

So let me get this straight. You want to be able to have your own money, private armies, kind of like being able to set up a state within the States (or be completely independent?), with your own laws...according to anarchic principles.O.k., so....

"Militia groups claim legitimacy based on colonial writings, particularly the Declaration of Independence; Article 1, section 8 and the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution; the Militia Act of 1792; Title 10, Section 311 of the United States Code; and the concept of an independent wing of the citizenry that enacts its own governmental beliefs."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. "The authors and signators were traitors to your king, Gawad.

"the local currency, the Somali Shilling, did not join them. Not only it has survived the absence of a central bank (which reopened only in 2009), but in relative terms it also performed more effectively in the stateless period, challenging many established theories on money.""From an economic point of view, the So.Sh degenerates into a pure commodity money, Mubarak argues. He estimates that the production cost of printing and importing one unit of forged So.Sh was US$0.03 in mid-1990s. In 1997, the So.Sh1,000 note, the highest denomination, was exchanged for US$0.12. However, in late 2001 the exchange rate dropped to US$0.04: producing So.Sh500 notes became counterproductive, and printing So.Sh1,000 notes was no longer more profitable than other enterprises. The best option would have been creating higher denominations, but knowing that they would not have been accepted by Somalis, many suppliers abandoned the activity. "http://thinkafric...currency

"This implies that if the state is gone, the public value that money holds in a society may remain, and that the absence of the state in Somalia does not equal a total vacuum of social institutions."http://thinkafric...currencyThis confirms Bastiat:"Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men havemade laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, andproperty existed beforehand that caused men to make laws inthe first place."

"Customary laws develop in a country like Somalia in the absence of a central legislating body. Rules "emerge spontaneously as people go about their daily business and try to solve the problems that occasionally arise in it without upsetting the patterns of cooperation on which they so heavily depend" (Van Notten, 15: 2005). Van Notten contends that the Somali customary law closely follows the natural law and therefore should be preserved."http://mises.org/daily/2066

"A large swath of the business community opposed the changes, arguing the legislation was too broad and had too many taxes. "This will make us one of the highest-taxed regions in the world, and that's going to have an impact on the appetite for people to invest in medical innovation," said Bill Hawkins, chief executive of Medtronic Inc., which makes medical devices. He said his company could cut at least 1,000 jobs to absorb a new 2.3% excise tax on medical-device makers. "http://online.wsj..._Popular"Boston Scientific said it would pare 1,300 jobs worldwide, but similarly did not say where.""Boston Scientific disclosed it was investing $150 million and hiring 1,000 people in China, raised fears that the company will gradually shift more work to foreign sites with less government oversight and lower costs than the United States."http://www.boston.com/The 'people' can and do leave.

"The world financial and economic crisis has now gone on for almost as long as the First World War. (The freezing of the interbank market in August 2007 was the equivalent of the shot that rang out in Sarajevo.)""But the strength of the Lefts analysis lies in its understanding of how the powerful have used liberal-conservative language as a cloak to secure their advantages. Thus globalisation, which ought to mean free trade throughout the world, turns out to mean a system in which big banks take the gains of international success and taxpayers in each nation affected bear the cost of any failure. The banks only come home when they have run out of our money. Then our governments give them more."http://www.telegr...ple.html

"Perhaps the main reason the messages of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan resonated in the 1980s was because of their faith in the capacities of the many. People could own their own council house if you let them; they could start a new business if you got out of their way. Every earner an owner! Mrs Thatcher used to cry, and she scurried up and down Whitehall trying to find ways of letting this happen. ""Modern governments across the Western world seem to be frightened of the people they govern, rather than on their side. Given the mess they have got us into, I suppose their fear is perfectly rational. "

@ Caliban: "Like Infrastructure, Education, and Healthcare for everybody -even your old Granny, who never held a 1040 job?"

You are correct, my grandmother, who is in her mid 90's never held a 1040 job. Instead she and her husband worked hard and saved all their lives, going without many of the luxuries that advertizing has convinced modern people to waste their money on. She and my grandfather lived frugal lives of self reliance and self accountability. My grandmother is doing fine, living on their savings at her home in Star, Idaho and takes care of her critters and garden every year. I should tell you though, she doesn't prefer to be called "Granny", but thanks for asking about her. Should I mention that you asked when I'm out that way this September for her birthday?

"He has another worry, "that what he's done will be taken as a reason to close down all kinds of debate," or to delegitimize the views of anyone who, as Dr. Dalrymple puts it, "question[s] anything that the current prime minister of Norway says or believes."

"Here is a man," Dr. Dalrymple says, "behaving like this and quoting all kinds of people, some of whom I admire or agree with." But to suggest that the views of those thinkers (including himself) somehow contributed to the killing in Oslo, he argues, makes no sense."http://online.wsj...000.html

Voting fraud update:"While NAACP President Benjamin Jealous lashed out at new state laws requiring photo ID for voting, an NAACP executive sits in prison, sentenced for carrying out a massive voter fraud scheme.

In a story ignored by the national media, in April a Tunica County, Miss., jury convicted NAACP official Lessadolla Sowers on 10 counts of fraudulently casting absentee ballots. Sowers is identified on an NAACP website as a member of the Tunica County NAACP Executive Committee."And ACORN, which filed for bankruptcy last November, was itself convicted of voter fraud in Nevada in April."Election experts say voter fraud is fairly common, but progressive activists typically insist that the crime is virtually nonexistent."

"Crawford and other historians argue that most fictional accounts of the group focus on unsubstantiated myths and conspiracy theories and that recent reappearances of the Knights Templar name in Norway and Mexico are just the latest attempts to manipulate their legacy.

"The drug gang and the murderer are trying to cloak the horror of their acts with the glamour and ideals of this religious order," Crawford said."

-Yah. "ideals of this religious order" whose mission was to free the 'holy land' from the grip of evil heathens by slaughtering hordes of them.

"The original Templars' NOBLE IDEALS and dramatic demise give them "an aura of glamour and mystery," said Paul Crawford, an associate professor of ancient and medieval history at California University of Pennsylvania."

-Indeed. They and their brethern the Knights Hospitaller, roamed the mittelmeer killing and enslaving 100s of 1000s for profit and for jeebus.

-Free Marketeers.

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