no. wow is on autopilot so heavy its not even funny. you can get almost what you whant whenever you want. this is one of the last pieces in game where you actually HAVE to have some skill (aka managing more then 3 things at a time ;-))

so pleaaaaaase. pretttyyyyyy pleaaase: take all the rest of the 99% of the game, enjoy easy mode, enjoy having handed everything to you like a little baby but leave this one for people who love to have an challange.

your bad, and frankly... when i think about the time you spend crying about... you could have easyily farmed better gear for the fight in that time.

so:

less crying, more fighting.

p.s.: and NO, your NOT getting green fire for free.

How exactly would a removable determination buff affect the challenge for awesome, All Gold, Rank 10, 13/13 Betters such as yourself?

How exactly would a removable determination buff affect the challenge for awesome, All Gold, Rank 10, 13/13 Betters such as yourself?

I think the main argument here is that Green Fire is not something that you "need" in order to progress your character further. Blizzard make character development and growth more accessible for more casual, less talented players, which makes sense, but they do also need some content that is designed to be challenging with challenging rewards. There are few people that bothered to disable the ICC zone buff after it went active, because what's the point? There's wanting something to be challenging, and deliberately doing something the hard way, for the same reward. Sadly if you're given everything you want without having to put in any effort, you'll be less invested.

The fight is very killable in current LFR gear, and if you just spend some time optimising your UI and keybindings, I'm pretty sure anyone can complete the encounter. Simply binding your Pit Lord's abilities and movement tools to easily reachable keys makes all the difference in the world.

and that it does a poor job of playing to warlock-specific strengths and abilities.

I actually does think the encounter speaks specifically to the Warlock class and the Warlock playerbase ... I've never known a time when locks weren't regarded as one of, if not the, most complicated dps classes to play well. This encounter is an extreme version of that trope, but I think it's a reward for those of us who enjoy the intricacies Warlocks are known for -- particularly micromanagement of many abilities, and simply having to be more aware of what's going on than most others.

In SoO LFR / valor gear, the encounter will be significantly easier as gear does provide a lot of breathing room on the mechanics (although, to be fair, some of that will be offset by the nerfs to our defensive capabilities -- but typically what people cite as their major problems are dealing with the felpups and, to a lesser extent, the imps. The faster they die, the less of a problem they'll be). In next expansion greens / dungeon blues, the encounter will likely be trivial.

Just to add in to what I'm saying -- I'm not at all a raider who is going to clear Ra-Den while he's still current tier, but I don't have a problem with his existence. I think some somewhat-exclusive content is good for the game, as long as it's not overboard. Kanrethad is an example of a boss whose reward will always be desirable, whereas Ra-Den will not be desirable after the Cutting Edge achieve is no longer rewarded from him. This means that for the entire expansion, Kanrethad is an at-level challenge, with progressive nerfs in the form of easier-to-obtain higher-level gear.

Kanrethad proved a harder challenge for me than anything else I've done in the game, and even though I needed more gear and more time than many, it felt damn good being able to do it very early into 5.2 -- my gear wasn't above 502 average. Now, for some, that would be a laughably high ilvl needed to do it, but for others more gear would be needed.

But even in SoO LFR / valor gear it won't be faceroll, as others have described it even in sub-500 gear. Great for them -- they're better at Warlocking than I am. But for me the greatest prestige was in making incremental improvements in how I approached the encounter -- reading up on other people's attempts, synthesizing their advice with my own experience, and finding what I needed to do to get myself through it, and making it happen. Even if I needed 522 gear, or 530 gear, it doesn't change that I had to simply play better each attempt, pay more attention each attempt, and make fewer mistakes each attempt.

For me this quest is a lot about what Warlocks are, to me: you see what you want, and you take it, you make it happen -- by any means necessary. You might have a hard road ahead of you but you have a deep bag of tricks. Your cunning and your willpower take you where you want to go. Who cares how hard or how easy anyone else's path is -- this is your path, this is your story. Take control of it.

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I think the main argument here is that Green Fire is not something that you "need" in order to progress your character further. Blizzard make character development and growth more accessible for more casual, less talented players, which makes sense, but they do also need some content that is designed to be challenging with challenging rewards. There are few people that bothered to disable the ICC zone buff after it went active, because what's the point? There's wanting something to be challenging, and deliberately doing something the hard way, for the same reward. Sadly if you're given everything you want without having to put in any effort, you'll be less invested.

The fight is very killable in current LFR gear, and if you just spend some time optimising your UI and keybindings, I'm pretty sure anyone can complete the encounter. Simply binding your Pit Lord's abilities and movement tools to easily reachable keys makes all the difference in the world.

This perhaps comes down to a philosophical difference. I have absolutely no issue with challenges for "fluff" rewards. I think Brawlers Guild was well done for the most part (there are specific things with specific encounters I feel could be "cleaned up" a little, but sidetracking..). I'm only Rank 4, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest to see Rank 10s walking around. The warlock quest is slightly different. A part of that is that I feel it's a type of challenge that's inappropriate to a class quest. Why should green fire be an elite-level reward?

Like I said before, I know I'm in a minority here, but that's also the main reason I'm so vocal about it.

I've got green fire on my warlock who only has 487 ilvl, all LFR stuff with a few pvp pieces. Needed around 30 attempts to fully understand the mechanics and get it. Wish there were more stuff like this, it's been a long time since I got this much fun with a challenge.

5 mins later after I got it I disabled green fire. Didn't like it at all and kept my beloved orange fire :P (please don't hate me XD)

My lock is my 4th or 5th lv90 alt but I got him to about 30% on my best attempt. Frankly, its not an easy fight and after spending about 6-8hrs of trial and error I feel I put in enough tries and Im over it. I just want them to nerf it already or add stacking determination buffs per wipe so I can just have green fire on my lock. The visual is awesome and I dont have the free time or patience to keep throwing in attempts.

"I failed for long enough, therefore I should be given it for free" Sigh.

On a different note, I quite enjoyed the fight. Of course it could have been even better, but its still by far the most fun solo fight I've done in the game so far. I hope we will see more like this, and that they reduce the ilvl of your gear like pvp/challenge modes, so that there are actually proper achievements in the game.

"I failed for long enough, therefore I should be given it for free" Sigh.

On a different note, I quite enjoyed the fight. Of course it could have been even better, but its still by far the most fun solo fight I've done in the game so far. I hope we will see more like this, and that they reduce the ilvl of your gear like pvp/challenge modes, so that there are actually proper achievements in the game.

25-30 attempts, ~480ilvl

It's a matter of perspective I guess. This is easily the least enjoyable encounter in the entire game for me, and I've done nearly all of them except Cata raids and the higher rank Brawler's Guild fights. Yeah, I get that a lot of you loved it, but I can't imagine I'm alone in feeling as I do.

I wish I had access to blizz's numbers on this (re: those completed the quest compared to those that have accepted it. It would probably help a lot towards putting my mind at ease one way or another if I could see them.

I'll ask again since this seems to be the heart of the disagreement (regardless if you found the encounter itself enjoyable or not): why should green fire be an elite tier reward? Yes, there absolutely should be elite rewards in the game, and they do a good job of providing them in regards to achievements and titles and so forth. Given that this is a class quest and the amount of development that went into it (already by being a class quest a limited audience), it seems counter-productive to limit the intended audience that much further. Maybe they have plans to do the exact same thing for every other class, I don't know. If that's the case then, well, I'm wrong.

As for all the people saying they want a gear cap on it and so forth, that makes no sense, given that this is largely a lore quest, and not a 'gaming achievement' (like challenge modes and rbgs).

I believe I got my green fire around 490 or so ilvl, and the fight was one of the most frustrating things that I've done in the game. As some of you have mentioned the difficulty came 100% in the felhunters eating the enslave, so you try to fumble with killing them fast enough versus re-enslaving. Then you make it past that, and you think sweet! i'm all good, until you remember there is a 2nd fel hunter phase. It took me about 3 days to do it in total because I could only handle smashing my head against it about 10 times in one night. I can truly see how you get to a point where you says "Why am I doing this, and why is this so difficult?" That feeling, that rush of joy, happiness, that comes from finishing something that you contemplated giving up so many times is why. It gave me the feeling, and remembrance of times past, and caused me to jump out of the air and scream out loud. I had stopped raiding with any HC guild since LK, and had that same feeling when we downed LK heroic when it was current content. YES I hated the hell out of it, and contemplated saying "screw it" so many times, but leaving a portion of the game "un-done" for me brought me back each time. That feeling alone, is worth all the frustration that you get from not being able to down it.

I don't care how many other people have it or get it, because I still have the memory of that rush of deciding to stop trying to survive, and to switch on full dps mode, only to down it with 10k health. I will say, however, that I would feel bad for those people if they were to just start "giving" it out to everyone (glyph or something) because that difficulty is for me what made that quest so much fun, and the memory so damn sweet.

I totally agree with you Szarala, I didn't like the fight at all--it's completely a gimmick fight. Do this, then do that, then do this, at the specified times, and if you mess up, you fail. Stupid dumb mechanics. You don't even get to have your real pet out, which makes it terrible for demonology. You don't even halfway have the fight in your control...all you do is reacting to the boss's mechanics, nothing else. You don't control your character anymore, you're just a rat pressing a button to some Dance Dance Revolution input. It actually epitomizes all that I think WoW has done wrong since it first came out--making the game more and more tunnel vision, and less about responding to what's happening in the unexpected moment.

My absolutely favorite moments from all of WoW, from vanilla to here, were when the unexpected happens...an add pulls, your healer or tank goes down, and you are forced to deal with the situation from there. Do you Fear that npc, with hopes that they won't pull others? Do you insta-call your voidwalker to offtank? Do you tank and kite some adds yourself to take pressure off the others? This sort of heat-of-the-moment decision making is almost gone from regular wow, and it's definitely gone from the Kan encounter.

I haven't had enslave demon on my bars for a long time now. Why? because it's fuckin useless now, it's a goddamn gimmick. I don't want gimmicks, I want unpredictability, something that tests my moment-to-moment judgment. Something that makes me pay attention.

I think one of the best raid encounters Blizz made was back in Wrath, in ToC, with the PvP styled-encounter. You didn't know what was going to happen on any given fight...and therefore it tested not only your reflexes but also your ability to truly work together, outside of just performing some memorized dance moves. If I only wanted dance moves I would've quit after Heigan.

I totally agree with you Szarala, I didn't like the fight at all--it's completely a gimmick fight. Do this, then do that, then do this, at the specified times, and if you mess up, you fail. Stupid dumb mechanics. You don't even get to have your real pet out, which makes it terrible for demonology. You don't even halfway have the fight in your control...all you do is reacting to the boss's mechanics, nothing else. You don't control your character anymore, you're just a rat pressing a button to some Dance Dance Revolution input. It actually epitomizes all that I think WoW has done wrong since it first came out--making the game more and more tunnel vision, and less about responding to what's happening in the unexpected moment.

My absolutely favorite moments from all of WoW, from vanilla to here, were when the unexpected happens...an add pulls, your healer or tank goes down, and you are forced to deal with the situation from there. Do you Fear that npc, with hopes that they won't pull others? Do you insta-call your voidwalker to offtank? Do you tank and kite some adds yourself to take pressure off the others? This sort of heat-of-the-moment decision making is almost gone from regular wow, and it's definitely gone from the Kan encounter.

I haven't had enslave demon on my bars for a long time now. Why? because it's fuckin useless now, it's a goddamn gimmick. I don't want gimmicks, I want unpredictability, something that tests my moment-to-moment judgment. Something that makes me pay attention.

I think one of the best raid encounters Blizz made was back in Wrath, in ToC, with the PvP styled-encounter. You didn't know what was going to happen on any given fight...and therefore it tested not only your reflexes but also your ability to truly work together, outside of just performing some memorized dance moves. If I only wanted dance moves I would've quit after Heigan.

So basically what you're saying here is that the fight would be better if he used his abilities at random times instead of at set moments? o_O

So basically what you're saying here is that the fight would be better if he used his abilities at random times instead of at set moments? o_O

I get exactly what he's saying. I'm -bad- at the fight mainly because of positioning issues with the Pit Lord but I don't -enjoy- the fight because of exactly what is said (about all you do is react to the boss's mechanics).

It's kinda hard to put into words, but the fight isn't fun to me because you don't actually "see" the fight... as in the whole time you're watching debuffs, positions etc.. If a good encounter can be likened to an adventurous jog down a scenic country trail, then this is like being put on a treadmill while doing your taxes.

I get exactly what he's saying. I'm -bad- at the fight mainly because of positioning issues with the Pit Lord but I don't -enjoy- the fight because of exactly what is said (about all you do is react to the boss's mechanics).

It's kinda hard to put into words, but the fight isn't fun to me because you don't actually "see" the fight... as in the whole time you're watching debuffs, positions etc.. If a good encounter can be likened to an adventurous jog down a scenic country trail, then this is like being put on a treadmill while doing your taxes.

You only have to move the pit lord a total of 2 times, (if your gear is good enough only once).

That would certainly help...would be a much better encounter if you actually had to choose your moves according to the situation. Say he threw felhunters, imps, and doomguards all at once...that would be far better than how it is currently. That would be a ton of things to handle at once. It would make you actually have to fight him, instead of doing dps at these pre-opportuned moments.

I don't think the difficulty should be changed, just the freedom to handle thing how you will.

That would certainly help...would be a much better encounter if you actually had to choose your moves according to the situation. Say he threw felhunters, imps, and doomguards all at once...that would be far better than how it is currently. That would be a ton of things to handle at once. It would make you actually have to fight him, instead of doing dps at these pre-opportuned moments.

I don't think the difficulty should be changed, just the freedom to handle thing how you will.

You are already free to handle the fight how you wish, and it has been shown that it can be done in very different manners.

- - - Updated - - -

The fight can be done in any spec.
You can Sac an Imp for the dispel, sac a Succubus for Felhunter knockback, or sac a VW for an "oh-shit" moment.
You can use Demonic Gates for the debuff, or for positioning/LoSing Chaos Bolts.
You can use Demonic Teleport to LoS Chaos Bolts, or to just move around at given times a bit easier as well.
You can use Defensives for soaking Imp/Felhunter damage, or you can save them to soak Chaos Bolts.
If you are a tailor, you can use the nets against the Fel Hunters to buy yourself some space.
You can use the Imps for generating secondary resources for more DPS, for survival (think Ember Tap), or just kill them if you feel as though you can't shake aggro and are taking too much damage.
Taking damage from Doomguards? Drop threat or Banish/Fear.
Suck at controlling the pit lord and it's abilities? Macro them into your filler so that you stay healed and dispelled quite easily, (IMO).

IMO, it was the best PVE content MoP has to offer...everything else (for me at least) is relatively stale.

I find it weird that the most common problem people have is felhunters. When I killed it early on with 490ish gear my biggest problem was the last ~30% when one or both doomlords decided to ignore the gateway debuff and start shooting 50k shadobolts at me. The felhunters only cleared my enslave maybe twice during 1.5 days of intense wiping. I honestly never had any trouble with the felhunters, so maybe this can help someone.

I moved the pitlord out of the way so that the felhunters spawned facing me in the middle with me on one side, and the pitlord tanking the boss on the other. (me) <-- (felhunters) <-- (boss+pitlord)

I shattered and cleared all debuffs with breath and imp skill right before they spawned and made sure that immolate was expired on the boss so he would stick 100% to the pitlord.

I put a RoF down on the portal so I would tag the felhunters the moment they spawned.

Just kill them, they don't have much hp and don't do much damage. Havoc one, CB another and finish them with SB if they are not dead yet. Kill the last one however you like.

Some other minor tips off the top of my head:

If you use your gateway on cooldown, he will only hit you with one, maybe two chaos bolts. Most of the time zero.

Use soul link, it considerably buffs all self healing and gives you a bigger health pool to soak that one or two chaos bolts.

Use the pitlord stun a lot! don't save it just for cataclysms. You can use it many times and squeeze in 3 buffed chaos bolts every time. I'm pretty sure the bulk of my damage came from those stuns.

So tell me, you did the encounter as demo or afflic? Lemme see, I'm really interested to see how it's done, especially the felpup phase.

I won't knock you, maybe you're great in a way no warlock I've ever seen has been. What was your ilivl when you did it?

It would help if you quote who it is that you are referring to, but if it was directed at me, I did it as Destro with an ilvl of 481 (mostly PvP gear...under hit cap to boot, lol), (as that is what I typically play in either PvP or PvE). That being said, it has been done in every spec, (which a simple google search will bring you multiple guides and videos, which I'll just post the first two for Demo/Affliction below.)

I must say, killing this guy in 475 item level was the best I've felt after killing a boss. My pitlord only had 10 seconds left(even after second enslave) and it would have been a wipe. hooray soulburn spam. And i've done top 100 world heroic raiding for every xpac except this one, so that says a lot.