While discussing with "knowledged" vajra practitionners, but not Dzogchenpa, they pretend, with many references, that rigpa is the view of Dzogchen ... maybe they are right, and I could (nor I wanted) to argue. But it seems evident, from my ignorance, that rigpa is "no more" a view as such, as others yanas use that term. Or at least rigpa is all views together ... can you help to dissipate my ignorance ?

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

No, you were right. Despite common misconceptions, Madhyamaka and Dzogchen both have views though you were right as rigpa is an experience of being in a certain type of knowledge, highest or vidya or enlightenment, of kadak-lhundrub and also that is one of many reasons why ChNNR says don't discuss such things with people who are not keen specially in their gathering places and centers and generally be mindful and sympathetic and respect all sorts of sentient beings' circumstances and personal dimensions.

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Rigpa is a perception of things, it is normal awareness (normative awareness). many views surround it, but it is not itself a view, only there are views about it .

normal awareness is the basis on which emptiness is seen. one must be completely aware of normal awareness in order to gain wisdom from it. an understanding of the normal leads to a transcendent seeing of emptiness.

normative awareness is very precious. seeing it just now as you are it is normal, seeing this computer is normal. when we look within ourselves we see this same normal sensation. it is recognised that normal awareness is emptiness, but in order to recognise this you need to be aware of the sensation within as being the same as the sensation without.

rigpa is the blessing of appearance, emptiness is the truth of that blessing.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Sönam wrote:While discussing with "knowledged" vajra practitionners, but not Dzogchenpa, they pretend, with many references, that rigpa is the view of Dzogchen ... maybe they are right, and I could (nor I wanted) to argue. But it seems evident, from my ignorance, that rigpa is "no more" a view as such, as others yanas use that term. Or at least rigpa is all views together ... can you help to dissipate my ignorance ?

Sönam

Rigpa is a view, in that sense they are correct. But rigpa is not some intellectual view (as Jigme Lingpa makes clear), instead it is the experience of contemplation, meditation as view, if you will.

Sönam wrote:While discussing with "knowledged" vajra practitionners, but not Dzogchenpa, they pretend, with many references, that rigpa is the view of Dzogchen ... maybe they are right, and I could (nor I wanted) to argue. But it seems evident, from my ignorance, that rigpa is "no more" a view as such, as others yanas use that term. Or at least rigpa is all views together ... can you help to dissipate my ignorance ?

Sönam

Tashi delek,

Rigpa is indeed a main point of view / idiom / expression used in Dzogchen. It forms the main part or is a part of the Dzogchen teachings.

Dzogchen does not speak about consciousness (rnam-shes) which is something conditioned and inherently dualistic. It speaks about Rigpa, the intrinsic awareness that is the inherent quality of the Natural State or the Nature of Mind. Here it is awareness and emptiness that are inseparable (rig stong dbyermed).

Like explained earlier is emptiness according the Sutra and Tantra different explained and that forms the big difference in understanding Rigpa as a different point of view. So it is typical a Dzogchen idiom or point of view.

The Natural State and its intrinsic quality, Rigpa, are unconditioned and outside of time. They are not brought into being by causes, as is the case with consciousness. This immediate intrinsic awareness called Rigpa is primordial and beyond dualistic consciousness and the workings of the mind. So the views / meanings / opinions etc. of other schools like Chittamatra, Madyamaka etc. do not count as true in Dzogchen.

But there are many more expressions, point of views, inside Dzogchen based on the basic idiom Rigpa.........

Best wishes

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Sönam wrote:While discussing with "knowledged" vajra practitionners, but not Dzogchenpa, they pretend, with many references, that rigpa is the view of Dzogchen ... maybe they are right, and I could (nor I wanted) to argue. But it seems evident, from my ignorance, that rigpa is "no more" a view as such, as others yanas use that term. Or at least rigpa is all views together ... can you help to dissipate my ignorance ?

Sönam

Rigpa is a view, in that sense they are correct. But rigpa is not some intellectual view (as Jigme Lingpa makes clear), instead it is the experience of contemplation, meditation as view, if you will.

so it's also not wrong to pretend that it's no more a view, as such ... it's an experience.

Thank youSönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote:While discussing with "knowledged" vajra practitionners, but not Dzogchenpa, they pretend, with many references, that rigpa is the view of Dzogchen ... maybe they are right, and I could (nor I wanted) to argue. But it seems evident, from my ignorance, that rigpa is "no more" a view as such, as others yanas use that term. Or at least rigpa is all views together ... can you help to dissipate my ignorance ?

Sönam

Rigpa is a view, in that sense they are correct. But rigpa is not some intellectual view (as Jigme Lingpa makes clear), instead it is the experience of contemplation, meditation as view, if you will.

so it's also not wrong to pretend that it's no more a view, as such ... it's an experience.

Thank youSönam

The best way to put it is that for Dzogchen rigpa is the view, the meditation, the conduct, and the result. RIgpa is also the basis, the path, and the result. Rigpa is hearing, contemplation, and meditation. RIgpa is shila, samadhi and prajn̄ā. Rigpa is creation and completion. Rigpa is three series of Dzogchen. Nothing is outside rigpa.

Namdrol wrote:The best way to put it is that for Dzogchen rigpa is the view, the meditation, the conduct, and the result. RIgpa is also the basis, the path, and the result. Rigpa is hearing, contemplation, and meditation. RIgpa is shila, samadhi and prajn̄ā. Rigpa is creation and completion. Rigpa is three series of Dzogchen. Nothing is outside rigpa.

N

Well put.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Namdrol wrote:The best way to put it is that for Dzogchen rigpa is the view, the meditation, the conduct, and the result. RIgpa is also the basis, the path, and the result. Rigpa is hearing, contemplation, and meditation. RIgpa is shila, samadhi and prajn̄ā. Rigpa is creation and completion. Rigpa is three series of Dzogchen. Nothing is outside rigpa.

N

Well put.

/magnus

Tashi delek,

If i did understood it well, then has Rigpa different meanings and so the idiom Rigpa must have different conjugations or idoms / words.

Question:- Would it be possible to put here the Tibetan idoms e.g. the conjugations of Rigpa, according the above mentioned meanings / - examples of Rigpa, if possible of course?

i have much respect for the people posting in this thread, but not meaning to sound insolent...

the intellect will never grasp it. it has to be seen, all see it but are unaware of what they see. how can reality be a view... a seeing yes, but a view? a little wisdom is needed here.

rigpa is only the beginning, we all see it ; there is not necessarily a seeing of the emptiness that rigpa is.no seeing of emptiness, how will one know that one has been asleep... dreaming all this time?

wake up within the dream. know that you are dreaming.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

rigpa is basic awareness, normal awareness, according to Padmasambhava in the Ati Yoga shastra, ''introduction to awareness''. what isnt basic awareness, basic awareness (Rigpa) is emptiness.

Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Namdrol wrote:The best way to put it is that for Dzogchen rigpa is the view, the meditation, the conduct, and the result. RIgpa is also the basis, the path, and the result. Rigpa is hearing, contemplation, and meditation. RIgpa is shila, samadhi and prajn̄ā. Rigpa is creation and completion. Rigpa is three series of Dzogchen. Nothing is outside rigpa.

N

Well put. /magnus

Tashi delek,

Rigpa is used in many cases and therfore Rigpa is used in many conjugations.

In addition to the above mentioned examples, your examples of Rigpa are placed are when i am right used in Path Dzogchen,

Best wishes

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

yes, that was well put, hoewever im not sure its true. surely anyone can see rigpa, but not everyone sees the emptiness that is rigpa and is not rigpa.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

I have done some background reading on the nature of Dzogpachenpo, and it seems that naked awareness is favoured over emptiness. some would even say that seeing emptiness is not needed, only normal awareness. that this vehicle/yana is complete and nothing is needed except normal awareness. this is interesting. i dont know much about Dzogpachenpo/Mengagde, however, i am profoundly amazed that in it nothing is required except normal awareness. Dzogpachenpo is the natural state and talk of emptiness becomes a binding chain that is unhelpful... yes, very interesting. the final state is the original state. nothing attained, nothing realised. just your normal self.

my own view is that naked awareness (clarity) and emptiness become one. this is some seeing! i had wondered how i might go beyond attachment to emptiness, and this is it. rigpa is the ultimate.

my apologies to Namdrol and Heart, that i was not in a position to accurately talk about Dzogchen. i still am not technically able to discuss these matters, however i do see within myself the union of emptiness and clarity. Your comments Namdrol have taken me beyond Emptiness. And, for that i sincerely thank you. this website has been such a blessing.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Longchenpa makes an astonishing commentary on a portion from the Dzogchen Semde root tantra, the Kunje Gyalpo. I have included both Longchenpa's commentary and the relevant text from the Kunje Gyalpo. Quotes are from Longchenpa's The Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena, published by Padma Publishing. My comments are beneath the KJG quotes below.

"Spontaneously present meditative stability, settled in its own place, is understood to be ongoing, like the flow of a river, without having to be deliberately cultivated. Within that context, everything arises as the true nature of phenomena, and so there is no error or obscuration, no dullness or agitation, no distraction or even the lack of it, because any object of distraction arises as the display of that nature."

From the Kunje Gyalpo:

To ignore what is inherent and seek afar for something else,eagerly trying to arouse the bliss that requires no effort... there is no greater debility than this.Undistracted meditative absorption is a stake that tethers one to reification.With respect to what is and always has been , there is no distraction, nothing to be lost.Undistracted meditative absorption seduces one with hope.Such are the Mahayana approaches based on either causes or results,which reveal what is provisional.... With respect to what is and always has been, there is no distraction, no loss.The state in which nothing need be done transcends all effort and achievement.

Jackson: Notice above where Longchenpa says any object of distraction arises as the display of that nature. In other words, whatever you are distracted by is itself the display of Rigpa and so you are actually still noticing Rigpa's display. As an example, when you are simply present to the here and now observing the sky, while observing the sky, a strong distracting thought or image enters your mind. Suddenly you are no longer in the here and now noticing the sky, but rather you are observing this thought. This is in traditional Mahayana vehicles of meditation considered to be distraction and is taught to be avoided and corrected. One is taught to stay in here and now awareness. But Longchenpa is saying those distracting thoughts are themselves just as valid as the sky as objects of experience. Those thoughts are also occurring in the here and now, so when you are observing thoughts or images you are also fully in here and now presence. Both the sky and thoughts are equally Rigpa's pure display. So in this way it is understood that distraction is impossible. If this extremely subtle and vital point is understood, all effort at trying to maintain an undistracted state drops away. All experiences of every kind are equally the display of Rigpa. Then one may ask: Well, ok ... then what exactly do I do when practicing Dzogchen? Great question! But it must remain unanswered, or else the answer will be turned into a new something to do. In Dzogchen the notion that there is something to do or practice is considered an illness. You are already Rigpa Awareness, what would be the point of doing something in order to become what you already are?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DzogchenC ... ssage/2141

Thoughts?

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

Longchenpa makes an astonishing commentary on a portion from the Dzogchen Semde root tantra, the Kunje Gyalpo. I have included both Longchenpa's commentary and the relevant text from the Kunje Gyalpo. Quotes are from Longchenpa's The Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena, published by Padma Publishing. My comments are beneath the KJG quotes below.

"Spontaneously present meditative stability, settled in its own place, is understood to be ongoing, like the flow of a river, without having to be deliberately cultivated. Within that context, everything arises as the true nature of phenomena, and so there is no error or obscuration, no dullness or agitation, no distraction or even the lack of it, because any object of distraction arises as the display of that nature."

From the Kunje Gyalpo:

To ignore what is inherent and seek afar for something else,eagerly trying to arouse the bliss that requires no effort... there is no greater debility than this.Undistracted meditative absorption is a stake that tethers one to reification.With respect to what is and always has been , there is no distraction, nothing to be lost.Undistracted meditative absorption seduces one with hope.Such are the Mahayana approaches based on either causes or results,which reveal what is provisional.... With respect to what is and always has been, there is no distraction, no loss.The state in which nothing need be done transcends all effort and achievement.

Jackson: Notice above where Longchenpa says any object of distraction arises as the display of that nature. In other words, whatever you are distracted by is itself the display of Rigpa and so you are actually still noticing Rigpa's display. As an example, when you are simply present to the here and now observing the sky, while observing the sky, a strong distracting thought or image enters your mind. Suddenly you are no longer in the here and now noticing the sky, but rather you are observing this thought. This is in traditional Mahayana vehicles of meditation considered to be distraction and is taught to be avoided and corrected. One is taught to stay in here and now awareness. But Longchenpa is saying those distracting thoughts are themselves just as valid as the sky as objects of experience. Those thoughts are also occurring in the here and now, so when you are observing thoughts or images you are also fully in here and now presence. Both the sky and thoughts are equally Rigpa's pure display. So in this way it is understood that distraction is impossible. If this extremely subtle and vital point is understood, all effort at trying to maintain an undistracted state drops away. All experiences of every kind are equally the display of Rigpa. Then one may ask: Well, ok ... then what exactly do I do when practicing Dzogchen? Great question! But it must remain unanswered, or else the answer will be turned into a new something to do. In Dzogchen the notion that there is something to do or practice is considered an illness. You are already Rigpa Awareness, what would be the point of doing something in order to become what you already are?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DzogchenC ... ssage/2141

Thoughts?

This is Jackson, he used to discuss on various internet forum like this one. These days he fashion himself as a Dzogchen/Mahamudra/Zen Guru and give workshops with direct introduction here and there. The quotes are correct.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

That's about what I thought. He also freely gives thogal instructions online, which I presume are correct since he probably was able to take a retreat. I could take one, too, if I wasn't broke and with a bunch of obligations all the time... or miss the announcements when I have the time and money. Anyway, I followed his instructions and got some lights going on. I've experienced it before, but I thought it was just visual static (I learned to ignore such things several years ago in my psychedelics phase). This time... well, I don't know. It developed. Other than that, I don't see the point, but I'm sure the point becomes self-evident... or, I hope it does.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

That's about what I thought. He also freely gives thogal instructions online, which I presume are correct since he probably was able to take a retreat. I could take one, too, if I wasn't broke and with a bunch of obligations all the time... or miss the announcements when I have the time and money. Anyway, I followed his instructions and got some lights going on. I've experienced it before, but I thought it was just visual static (I learned to ignore such things several years ago in my psychedelics phase). This time... well, I don't know. It developed. Other than that, I don't see the point, but I'm sure the point becomes self-evident... or, I hope it does.

My my, he gives Togal instructions! There is an American couple that feel they concluded the four visions of Togal so he is in for some very serious competition in the fake Lama business the next few years.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

I've just been reading about thogal in the Tao Bums forums. Pero is a member there and he chimed in a little bit. I also recognize the very knowledgeable guy there known as Vajrahridaya who is a member of ChNN's DC. Based on what I read, I believe I am not ready for thogal. If I was, I probably wouldn't be having difficulty trying to receive this instruction or being oblivious about it (as I was until semi-recently). I think what I've got to do here is reread Crystal and The Way of Light after I reread Supreme Source and practice-wise dedicate some serious time to Vajrasattva practice.

I know I should be making a gesture based on the fact that I even have these possibilities, but I just unfortunately have no real connection feeling to Vajrasattva practice. I don't even really know how to do it and I've never been able to find a good recording of that 100-syllable mantra. Every time I've considered starting this practice regularly, I think, "no, why should I do that? Namkhai Norbu says Vajra Breathing is the same as Song of Vajra and both are guru yoga which is the best purification!" ... but, I should do both... it also seems weird since I have a filled Tara statue and I rarely even do Tara practice anymore but now I am going to do Vajrasattva instead? I'm going to hell.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron