Posted
by
timothy
on Wednesday October 02, 2002 @05:54AM
from the play-as-you-please dept.

toothfish writes "There's a review of the latest generation of Xbox modchip over at xbox hacker- no solder, flashable BIOS, 15 min. install, etc. Stuff like this should make it easier for the average Xbox user to run emulators, Linux, and such. No word if it does or does not work in the latest iteration of Xbox though. Anyone from australia order one of these guys yet?"

For $200 [walmart.com] you can get a PC with Linux pre-installed: 800MHz, CD-ROM, 10G disk, 128M. If you want to run Xbox games, get an Xbox, but for everything else, a real PC is probably cheaper and better.

The Xbox is absolutely not profitable, where have you gotten such a lie from?

(Microsoft doesn't have control over the costs in the Xbox in the same way as Sony has on the PS2 or Nintendo on the Gamecube. Intel and NVidia, together with Philips/Thomson and Seagate/Quantum has their words in this too.. )

The XBox will turn out to be very profitable, in the much longer term, when MS deploy future DRM systems based upon lessons learned from it

The XBox is being used as an experiment in locking-down PCs. It's like a honeynet for hardware hackers - people *will* try to hack it - either to pirate games, play MP3s, or run Linux. MS will learn from each hack, to build a more secure system, before releasing a system that really matters... in future generations of Windows and PC hardware

You're right...the X-Box IS an experiment. It is Microsoft's first tentative step towards a completely-locked-down totally Microsoft-controlled PC. The success of the X-Box guarantees this will happen.

Forget about Compaq et al--Microsoft wants to own the hardware, as well as the software. Keep an eye out for it. The second they slap a keyboard, and mouse on the X-Box, the Microsoft PC will be born (and Windows will "suddenly" only work with the Microsoft-certified hardware). It will be completely DRM from the ground up (the X-box already IS).

Folks, supporting the X-Box only brings us closer to the inevitable "darker ages" of home computing (we're already deep inside the dark ages right now, in my opinion).

If Microsoft thinks that they can take on the hardware OEMs then they are in for a shock. Apple made the mistake of thinking that hardware was the place to be, and look what that bought them. For years their Macs were light-years ahead of the DOS based competitors (I am talking about the days before Windows), but people bought PCs because they were good enough and cheaper.

If Microsoft tries to control the hardware companies like Dell will have no choice but to go to war, and part of that war will include getting Linux to the point where grandma could use it. And the Dells, Compaqs, and the folks down on the corner are going to be able to build computers cheaper Microsoft.

I personally am hoping that Microsoft starts to get serious about being a hardware manufacturer, because that would very likely guarantee the success of Linux.

The assumption here of course is that there will be something so irresistable in future generations of Windows and PC hardware that will force people to upgrade even though all their rights are taken away.

Time will prove they are wrong. As soon as my right to do whatever I want with my own hardware declines, I'll stop buying new hardware (until it can be hacked to recover those rights).

Time will prove they are wrong. As soon as my right to do whatever I want with my own hardware declines, I'll stop buying new hardware (until it can be hacked to recover those rights).

I think time will prove that they are right, and you just happen to not be a typical person or representative of Microsoft's market.

Never forget: somebody is buying Britney Spears CDs. According to various polls (not accurate, I admit) over half the population believes in Demonic Possession, and can't find their own country on a world map.

I don't know where these people are, but they're out there somewhere, and they buy a lot of shit.

Yeah, just like software/hardware manufacturers have learned from the fact that every previous attempt at stopping the copying of software, and cloning of hardware, and production of unlicenced hardware for consoles.

Perhaps, but I think that's more a serendipitous side-effect than anything that was consciously planned - though doubtless it was intended to be hard enough to crack the box that most potential customers wouldn't bother and would just buy or rent the games and utilities of interest. Given his 'druthers, I suspect that Bill G would much prefer to keep the PC platform general-purpose rather than building in kit that allows Hollywood and Tim Pan Ally a veto over what can be done in future with his brainchild. However, he wouldn't be where he is today without a shrewd idea of what battles are winnable at any particular time.

Uhm, by default the xbox allows you to rip/play "mp3's" in a way (wma's in reality).

I think your blowing out of proportion your conspiracy theory as ALL consoles use DRM.

Nintendo uses rare miny DVD's, and Sony is known to change things around at will as well.

Even the Dreamcast used the "impossible to crack" GD-ROM's and that was broken.

Just turns out the Xbox seems to have an updateable firmware that can be loaded from games or something similar in which microsoft can adopt fixes/changes necessary to protect the copyrights and value of the xbox.

The Xbox is *NOT* a PC or a test bed to ruin your future PC experiences.

The Xbox is Microsoft's stab at making lots and lots of money in the console industry.

You don't think they're noticing the decline in the PC software sales arena? Console hardware makers get to write themselves blank cheques all the time because of the 3rd-party developers wanting to get a licence + SDK for their platform (most of the time). Look at Nintendo: they make more money than all of Hollywood put together. Look at Sony: their foray into the console industry has given them buckets of cash, so much that they could use US 20$ bills as kindlying around logs of 100$ US bills to heat their mansions, and still have lots of money left over to buy another senator!

Maybe I'm not seeing this DRM angle, or maybe I'm just noticing the much simpler, more reasonable explanation for Microsoft wanting to get into the console industry.

remember when directx was the red headed step child we all loved to bash...now it is the standard, and unfortunatly opengl is losing ground. Give M$ 10 or 15 tries and they will get it right, or at least close to it...Win2k is an exponential improvement to any M$ OS before. They still have MILES to go mind you but a million Bill Gates pounding on a million keyboards will eventually produce some solid code, and M$ has programmers much brighter than BG working for them.

"Should I believe you over him?"...errr...what point is it we are disagreeing on here ? perhaps you should read the parent, and disregard my habit of hyperbole. I am a Win2K user and actually like it. I also use Solaris, Debian, and NCR and like them as well for the purpose they serve. I was responding to a comment that M$ software was NOT getting better and disputing that. I stand by my comment regarding programmers, Bill Gates is sharp but he's got MUCH better working for him.

About your.sig. You should create a yahoo.com e-mail account so people can discuss the topic with you. Unless you don't want to discuss the topic for the thousandth time and only want people to go to the linked site? Its a shame there aren't more sites devoted to offering facts and both sides of the issue. Reading a pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian site isn't good enough. The two sides offer such radically different views that its almost impossible to understand what is actually happening.

I liken it to reading a voter pamphlet last year. About a particular ballot measure the Pro side said: This measure will not cost one cent. The Con side said: This measure will cost 50,000,000 dollars. Well one of them was definitely lying or confusing the truth, but the pamphlet didn't tell me who or how.

The front page of electronicintifada.org is misleading. It opens saying:Against the Israeli MachineWhen you find yourself sending tanks into refugee camps, perhaps it's time to consider where terror begins.

The picture shows a young Palestinian child throwing a rock at a giant tank. I find this highly interesting. I cannot see the face of the child, I cannot tell his feelings. My first thought was the caption implied the military presence in the camp was terrorizing the people there into fighting back. Then I thought perhaps since this child is fearless and stupid enough to throw a rock at a tank, he is the problem. If he didn't want to kill Israelis now because of sermons like these [imra.org.il], perhaps he won't grow up to try and blow himself and others to bits. So its the camps where the terrorists are hiding, and thats why the miltary is there, to capture them.

You are right: Microsoft shouldn't be losing money on it, since the WalMart PC already offers better specs for the same amount of money. Even if they were losing money on it, there is little point in giving Microsoft good marketing numbers. Given their cash reserves, they could easily give the Xbox away to millions of people if it didn't erode trust in the platform--what they want is actual purchases.

My mother is basically wheel chair bound, and has visual problems. She watches a lot of TV, and has never used a computer.

She has a WebTV and can surf the web, but her WebTV will not let her watch more than 128K of movies. And I don't believe any WebTV model will. That makes those movies of my kids that much harder to distribute to her.

So I'd like to find a set-top box internet access solution for her. I haven't done a lot of looking, but it seems that the Xbox running Linux with a cordless USB keyboard may be a winning solution.

She could surf the web to see the kids, download and play their movies, print their photographs out, and all from a machine designed to work well with TVs. And when her other grandchildren come over, well they can do the first person shooter thing.

So I have high hopes for this Xbox project. I believe it can really offer a social good to a class of people that don't have a good internet solution.

Then again, if you know of other, better, also inexpensive set top box internet solutions, do let me know.

I can remember the days when you had to use a TV for a PC, ie Commodore, Adam, etc... and all I wanted was to get a monitor. Now, all people want to do is run their PC on their TV.

I wish you would make up my mind.

Seriously, what is the purpose of modding and Xbox, other than to prove it can be done. Seems to me that all of this talent could be better put to use developing a viable alternative to MS. Sorry folks, Linux ain't it. Not enough programs, support is non-existant for the average (l)user. Don't get me wrong, I like Linux, and use it for my servers, but as a desktop or workstation it just does not cut it. Along with the things listed above, there is just not enough software out there for Linux to allow me to be productive, and that's the key. How many of the die-hard linux people on this site are dual booting so they can play the latest game on the PC?

What is needed is something so far ahead of what we have now that it can overcome the lack of software long enough to get a hold on the market. Linux still looks like Windows. I am thinking something like a VR style OS, like the really cool one in Johnny Pnuemonic....

Can you really own an X-Box. I just assumed that the fee you pay at the store was to rent it from microsoft. I guess I shouldn't have gotten so excited that I didn't have to pay any monthly fees on it...

The Xodus is based (completely) on numbnuts Cheapmod-project - available under the GPL. There's an issue whether the guys behind Xodus need to release all their specs and circuit-info due to this.

The Xodus thus uses a 256kb LPC flashrom. The flashrom in the Xbox is 1024kb. Lucky for us the Xbox BIOS is 4 copies of the same thing, so it actually works - HOWEVER - the devbios is 512kb and one of the Linux-bioses is also larger than 256kb and thus doesn't work in the Xodus.

The new Xbox seems to have (at least) the encryption key changed for the BIOS. Thus whether the Xodus will work on the V2 Xboxes has nothing to do with the mod, but with the BIOS you load it with. Other flashable mods (like the BioXX) will work or not work on the V2 Xbox just as well/bad as the Xodus.

It's a no-solder mod - it seems to work even if you shake your box around - but sorry, I'd trust my own soldering job any day instead (and I want to use a BIOS that supports on-target debugging, i.e, larger than 256kb)

In order to maintain falsely inflated software revenue from their XBox titles, they are forced to combat hacking on their hardware. Strangely enough, Sony pretty much does the same thing with regard to their software.

Even though it has been possible for some time to steal and burn PS games, I don't see many folks going out and renting a bunch of games to pirate. And I think Sony has seen the movement for what it is, a way to hack together a cheap Linux box. Microsoft, with their HDTV output is a natch for the community at large. Of course, they aren't Sony and have their OS revenue to protect as well. Thus the difference.

Now, how long before we see the Cube Linux Pack with special Nintendo Keyboard and Mouse?

There are several reasons why people don't just rent and copy games. It's neither efficient nor profitable, not to mention anything of the collectible aspect of games that people enjoy.

To burn a PS2 game normally, you need to do a lot of things. First, you need the mod chip installed. With most modchips, you need to do some soldering which makes things way beyond the scope of your average person. Then once you've burned the disc, on the modchips that have minimal soldering, you need a boot disk to boot a PS2 game. So now you have an extra step in the boot process. Things are looking uglier.

Now we can get into more details. Many PS2 games are on a DVD and either need to have things scaled back or modified to get on a CD. Most people do not have a DVD burner in their possession and how many that do are willing to waste a precious disc?

Then you have to deal with the $5 price of a PS2 game at Blockbuster for a game that you may or may not like. Of course then you also have to hope that the disc is alright enough to be copied without destroying the disc you're creating and any other factors involved in the burning process.

Linux isn't a factor in the modding process normally. It's for the games, but even that's selective. That's why you don't see people copying them in bundles and why Xbox mods aren't as common as the PS2 mod (I don't think I've ever seen someone mod their Xbox). The Xbox doesn't have enough games to make it worthwile (you don't even need the bootdisks for the xbox mod). That's what MS is trying to fight. Personally, I'd rather them concentrate on getting a decent game for the system.

Besides, who wants to waste their TV screen running Linux? I'd rather use my computer monitor for that.

I mean, what's the draw of hacking the Xbox? I understand the desire to port Linux, whatever to exotic hardware like the PS2, Dreamcast, game boy advance, etc... But the Xbox is just a PC with some lockout hardware. And on top of that the system is just ugly and the games are boring (at least what I've seen advertised... totally derivative crap, mostly). Hardly even worth pirating, IMO.

Aside from Jet set radio future, are there any cool, innovative games for the Xbox? I do own one, it would be nice to have some fun with it, now that I've completed JSRF

In November, Xbox is getting something fairly innovative exclusively. It's called Tekki in Japan and it'll be called Steel Battalion here. It's from Capcom and it's a mech game.

What's unique about it? The controller that comes with it has about 40 buttons, many of which light up, blink or whatnot. The controller itself comes in three sections and a footpedal and looks amazing, not to mention the details involved in it's creation (the eject button is covered with a plastic cover to keep from accidental ditching of your mech).

The negative? The game costs about $200 here and it'll be probably be produced in limited quantities. The Japanese version only costs about $150, but the price of importing and shipping will probably double the price. Either way, you're screwed. Still, you asked for innovation.

I have yet to find a ground breaking PS2 title "i need to have" as well.

Personally, i've been dreaming of playing Robotech for years, so the cost of the xbox and the game is cheaper then trying to do something on my own. I have had hours of fun beating Crash Bandicoot, Project Gotham, DOA3, Munch's Odysee, Outlaw Golf, MotoGP and many others.

Xbox live is also turning out to be very nice system..

so uhm. yeah, lots of stuff coming out. Don't limit yourself to what they advertise on TV

Xbox with a modchip is very interesting concept. Since you can do almost anything with it. With 120G harddisk installed you can have:

* Portable Divx player with ~150 movies* MP3 Player with ~2000 'CD quality' albums* Up to 60 Xbox games on the disk* NES and SNES emulator with every game ever published* N64 and MAME Emulator with hundreds or even over thousand games* Audio CD/VCD/SVCD player * etc

Can you find any other console/mediabox/anything with these features under 400$ that you can just plug in to TV or amplifier?

Sure I can. Get this [walmart.com] a XPert98 with tv out for like 40 bucks on ebay, saving yourself almost 200 dollars in the process. Plus you are actually SUPPORTING the adoption of Linux since your purchase counts as a Linux purchase.

Did they say there was anything put in place in this new LINDOWS which would prevent anyone from loading a Windows operating system if they wanted to? looks like a cheap way for someone to buy a PC and load windows on it just to have a basic PC...linux or not.

Oh, right, like I'm supposed to inherently know there's supposed to be a space there. I searched what he said to search for, and no results showed up. Quit being a pedantic jackass and go do something useful.

I've been trying to track down info on this recently, but Lik-Sang has been down for days now...

Lik-Sang bought over the open-Xbox project, I think a month or so ago, and trying to work out if this is a renaming of it...

But effectively a no-solder flasher of the bios, right? Delivered with an unflashed chip, plus a flash programmer...

Strikes me is the weakness is getting the flashed bios's off the net.

Lots of information seems to be lacking for me at the moment.

1) Is this compatible with this new Xbox revision

2) Will we be able to switch it off (I want my Xbox to be unmodded really, just modded occasionally to do some things), otherwise future original MS games with barf modded Xbox's, and Xbox live...3) What will the flashes cover? Dvd regioning? (My biggest concern). Booting unsigned discs? (Linux on Xbox) Playing import games? (this is what its been quoted for) Playing backups? (Not too bothered about that one really).

1) Is this compatible with this new Xbox revisionNo. Microsoft changed thier board layout along with the bios. There is a slight chance that they kept the block that this unit attaches to, but the alignment method will definately be off. On the plus side though, as the bios is reprogrammable if somehow you managed to attach the thing, you could put in a new bios.

2) Will we be able to switch it off (I want my Xbox to be unmodded really, just modded occasionally to do some things), otherwise future original MS games with barf modded Xbox's, and Xbox live...Yep. There are 2 dip switches with (you guessed it you binary freaks) 4 modes. First, a programming mode. Second, a on mode. Third, a off mode. And finally, a switchable mode done with some voodoo involving ejecting your cd.

3) What will the flashes cover? Dvd regioning? (My biggest concern). Booting unsigned discs? (Linux on Xbox) Playing import games? (this is what its been quoted for) Playing backups? (Not too bothered about that one really).Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. (of course, its dependant on the particular bios you decide to pop in.)

Here's a scenario: Once the xboxes have populated the homes, in no time at all Microsoft will start shipping Microsoft XB to run in the device. This will happen especially if they notice that a competing open source OS has already penetrated their territory. This is just what Microsoft needs to overcome legal battles related to doing it (combining hardware and operating system) and selling it to large public and to win monopoly accusations related to doing it.

It's an interesting concept, but I don't think it will open any legal barriers to putting their OS on the XBox. I'm not even sure that there are legal barriers, a la antitrust convictions or otherwise. At any rate, a third party group making a hobby out of violating the EULA is not going to give MS the legal justification for doing anything that they couldn't already do.

I normaly dont post be cause i feel i have nothing that will be of any use to the masses (and dont like t piss people off) but this is my second post in about as many days.. the reason? yet an other error on the main page. the time is in under 15 sec not under 15 min. I personaly doubt it could be done in 15 sec, maybe with case already off and all, but thats not a very good measure of the tru time. people posting on the main page... use the preview button and reread those pages once:-D other than that keep it up... ok back to silently watching from the shadows...

They go hand-in-hand. It's a lot easier to hack the xbox first, so you can figure out how the encryption/lockout stuff works. Then, you write a driver, hack, or whatever in software/hardware as needed for the general PC population.

Agreed here. When decent Playstation emus came out, I was finally able to play some the games that I'd been itching to get at, but hadn't reached the PC market. If somebody can hack and X-box and/or a PS-2, I'll happily pay the games, but nothign sucks more than having to buy a console just to play 1-2 games.

In another year my PC hardware should be able to dish out almost anything a console of this generation can (playstation games look better in 3d on my 2-yr-old graphics card with an emulator).

1 big concern in PC emulation is 2d graphics. A lot of emulator designers have emus that are awesome for 3d, but crap out when it comes to 2d stuff, even such as simple as text and dialog boxes. Hopefully if an emu is made for X-box, 2d graphics won't fall to the side. As far as the actual console goes, MS could be a good fighter for games. If they're willing to dish out enough money, some seriously awesome games that might otherwise not happen may make it out on X-box.

Ms scared? Hardly. You see, in order to use one of those keen mpd chips, you have to buy the XBox. And contary to what a lot of puddingheads keep saying, MS loses a lot less money for each XBox sold than for each XBox not sold. Anyoine who's worked higher up the retail system than sale-floor monkey knows that is is far better to sell off your inventory at a slight loss than to have it piling up in some warehouse.

When will someone make an ordinary PC for the living room? How about Shuttle? That way, we'd get a box that fits in the entertainment center, is far more powerful than Xbox, and with none of the restrictions.

I saw some comments in this thread and previous threads about homebrew projects for the XBox (emulators specifically.) To avoid people being disappointed when they want to play games for (insert console here) system on their newly modded XBox, here is some information on the current state of emulators for the XBox.

Firstly, there is not yet an N64 emulator that runs well. There are the preliminaries of a port of Daedalus [boob.co.uk] for the XBox, including a leaked beta binary. It runs so-so because it was still early in development. This is not a comment on the author - I'm sure something will be developed soon that will make the majority of people happy, but don't get your hopes up about emulating all your favorite N64 games just yet.

There is also no PSX emulator yet. You can find the usual hype/marketing ploys on modchip reseller webpages about modchips allowing you to emulate "great systems like SNES, N64, PSX...". Please remember when you read such things that these people want your money. Look into it yourself first. There are no PSX emulators for the XBox yet. I'm sure something will be ported over in the future ( or Linux-on-Xbox will be able to run a linux PSX emu at a decent speed soon).

The good news, however, is that the world of emulation on the XBox is unparalleled on any other console. Here is a list of emulators ported to the XBox which work almost flawlessly:

Bochs (x86) [xb-power.com] Bochs emulates the PC architecture and has prebuilt packages for running DOS 6.22, Windows 3.11, and Windows 95. Windows runs too slowly in Bochs to do anything useful, but it runs old DOS games very well.

Owning a modded XBox allows you to easily play just about all of your console classics on the TV in your living room. (No, not everyone has computers in every room of their house yet.:P ) IMHO, the most fun I've had with my XBox so far is playing games on all of the above emulators. Now that there is a solderless modchip, just about anyone can enjoy them also.

Well, first of all, the new chip doesn't work with the latest boxes that were recently manufactured (in August, I think). This has applied to EVERY OTHER chip that has been released for it (there are plenty). While, I'm sure there will be ways to circumvent this relatively soon, it is still interesting timing to see if this new chip will prompt a buying spree of X-Boxes.

As for the cheap PC vs. X-Box argument, there are many reasons why I have found it useful: Hooks to a TV with progressive scan (there are now patches to enable the DVD and the dashboard menu in progressive mode), Media streaming - the current media player can view streamed video from a host PC or from media on the x-box HD. This works with the x-box remote, and even plays divx. MUCH more seamless than any PC-home theater-type setup. And this is coming from a guy who has had a living room computer hooked up to a home theater for a few years now. This way I don't have to keep a computer in the living room, and I don't have to keep a mouse/keyboard handy to do trivial tasks such as watching a video clip. Emulators are great, and work great with the x-box controller (controller S is actually very nice). A PC is much more tedious to setup, harder to get multi-player configured, and once again requires mouse/keyboard to even startup.

Sorry for the rant, but after all the modding, my X-Box has actually turned into that set-top box everyone was talking about (when coupled with my UltimateTV set, of course). It provides customizability and ease of use that a living room computer simply can't compete with. If you can get over the Microsoft factor, I think anyone would be quite pleased with what has been accomplished in such a short time as compared to a stagnant PS2 development community (grass-roots, not companies trying to make PVR software) trying to play catch-up on such a limited system (even with the Linux kit).

Sure it could be different.. Example.. if you tell two programmers to write a piece of code that takes in X and does Y, you could get two very different pieces of code that end up doing the exact same thing. However, a hack that worked on one might not easily work on the other.

The irony -- admittedly a literary device lost on most SlashDotters -- is that in the console arena, MS is the scrappy underdog. Their presence there is a tremendous boon to game players (ardent 14-year-old PS2 fan boys not included, of course). It is the XBox which is causing $ony to drop prices, expedite online muti-player, and generally just keep in line and look over their shoulder. They have entered an industry in dire need of a competitive shake-up, and are one of the few companies with the resources to be taken seriously by the existing $ony and Nintendo monoliths.

Microsoft Xbox -- it's a Good Thing.

Of course, if you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that Bill Gates is the Grand Lizard of the Illuminati and that XBox is his tool to effect a plan for World Domination hatched during the Fall of the Knights Templar, a simple discussion regarding game industry economics is probably not going to sway you much...

Bud, you must have missed out on ethics 101. Right and wrong are a very subjective things. Its all about point of view.

I consider it wrong for anyone to give money to an abusive mafia-like organization like Microsoft, so from my perspective so it _is_ wrong. When you discover a truly objective criteria for right and wrong that we can all agree on, get back to me and I'll check out this moral dilemma there.

Because Microsoft currently makes a significant loss on every console sold. They count on making up that loss through the sale of games. People converting XBoxes into Linux servers do not tend to buy XBox games.

As for raising the price - that will simply stop people buying them. If they become significantly more expensive it becomes cheaper to just buy a PC.