Welcome to HVAC-Talk.com, a non-DIY site and the ultimate Source for HVAC Information & Knowledge Sharing for the industry professional! Here you can join over 150,000 HVAC Professionals & enthusiasts from around the world discussing all things related to HVAC/R. You are currently viewing as a NON-REGISTERED guest which gives you limited access to view discussions

To gain full access to our forums you must register; for a free account. As a registered Guest you will be able to:

Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts.

Closed Loop Antifreeze

Can a pro and con discussion about Geothermal closed loop anti freeze be posted here? I mean, "stuff that will work just fine" vs the commercial stuff? I've heard of RV fluid, windshield washer fluid, moonshine, etc)) I get it and have my opinion. Can anyone post the truth? I called a few places, I was told, "Sir, I cant answer that, or Sir, your asking a question that I cannot answer". I have a real good answer given to me from Dow Chemical that I will not post in the open forum.))

If this topic is a little sensitive here, I understand and will let it go.

The biggest problem with using anything other than the proper media is; life expectancy, corrosion control, and organic growth control, not to mention efficiency and environmental responsibility.

You can use root beer if you wanted, does not mean you wont have any problems down the road.

GT

I agree and have to disagree with you.

I admit this should be moved to...somewhere...lol. You are correct and i feel I have been tought incorrect information. Carrier tought me about Methanol. I've learned about inhibited polyglycol, Ethelyne glycol, Ethenol, etc. One could state some types of blue wiindsheild fluid can be used as a anti freeze. Organic corosion\growth control? Just add an additive. We can debate all night long.

I guess what really matters is why do you ask? We use between a 15-20% methanol as recommended by WaterFurnace and at e price we pay there is no use looking for a cheaper substitute that could potentially cost thousands down the road.

You are putting in a system worth how much and you want to save $100 by not using the recommended stuff?

I admit this should be moved to...somewhere...lol. You are correct and i feel I have been tought incorrect information. Carrier tought me about Methanol. I've learned about inhibited polyglycol, Ethelyne glycol, Ethenol, etc. One could state some types of blue wiindsheild fluid can be used as a anti freeze. Organic corosion\growth control? Just add an additive. We can debate all night long.

Well first of all, the windshield washer fluid thing is just silly, it is either going to have methanol or glycol in it, so in short it is the same thing, except it may be more difficult to pump because of the glycerin and may foam. (Weird discussion).

And as for the additives, fair enough, but it is one more thing you have to add and monitor for proper ratio's.

I guess I am missing the point of the discussion. I tend to leave it up to the engineers that design the stuff, if they recommend something, I doubt seriously that they make any more cash on it.

If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

Thanks guy's for your responce. Yes, part of me asked just so I could read and learn real\true information, instead of "you just cant do that because WF said not to," etc. On the other hand, I was going to be stuck purchasing 55 gal of methanol when I only needed 14 gal. I could not find anyone to sell me 5 gal containers within a reasonable distance, and the price was HIGH! This was a complete out of state (for me) geo thermal install for a family member. I was trying to save them a few more dollars. Bottom line, they got 20% methanol in their closed horizontal ground loop.

PS: The Peak WWF I was looking at had 38% methanol and 62% water as per the MSDS sheet. I would have only needed about 37-38 gallons purchased at autozone, etc, another reason I asked the question.

I think the real issue is what is legal in the place on the rock you work in? We prefer methanol when allowed, but other states have other ideas.
Eric

waterpirate,
Sir, you are eveywhere it seems when it comes to geo hvac sites on the internet. Information like you provided let me go from theoretical class room information to actual practice. I've worked HVAC AC/heat pump for a few years now. I was told GEO was above my station. That when it came to the "loop", you needed specialists, special equipment, etc. Well, with information from people like you, I performed a complete geo WSHP\presurized horizontal loop with desuperheater install for a family member for a great price with my free labor.) No special equipment was required for this install. We tried every work around possible just to prove a point that one doesnt need specilaized equipment in some cases.

The loop side of geothermal does not have to be complicated. It functions on a set of rules that if you understand the basics of fluid movement and thermal conductivity, there are a multitude of ways to builsd a very effective heat exchanger.
Eric

Congrats on the self install!
Although specialty tools are not required, they sure do aid in the process of simplifying the install. Fusion joints require a certification process, but are less expensive to make, and more secure than stab fittings, or compression fittings.
A purge cart is also generally more powerful and easier to purge with than a barrel and jet pump set-up.
DiY'ers can surely do this job with (orange store or blue store) shopping list, but pros with do it faster with more success with their specialty built tools.

but pros with do it faster with more success with their specialty built tools.

HMMMM, is this really true? I gatta register as a pro....

Jokes aside, I researched this install extensively. Waterpirate's name comes up a lot. This family member was short on money, long on friends and equipment. Based on my training of general HVAC (Heat pumps mostly) and information gleaned here, we decided to try a 4 ton geothermal install. Our expierience cannot be applied to most install's, as was pointed out by WP on another site, but for some, it can. We used the max recommended length (in our area) of horizontal line in a straight loop formation for the tonage buried at 8ft instead of 6ft., Just because we could, and the machine and labor were free, except the fuel. The loop manifold was located inside the residence, the unit was flushed and charged with his household water pump, etc, because he was a cheap bastard. LOL Bottom line, all worked out fine...so far..