Slightly more regen? What rock have you been under? In 5.1 rapture is 200% and benefits from spirit buffs, the amount of mana gain is actually quite significant. 5.2 this changes, of course, but it's still a net gain. Further, PW:S heals and procs Borrowed Time, so the mana invested is more than worth it. Holy, on the other hand, gets jack shit for casting something like, say, CoH. Or anything for that matter. Again, arguing because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

If you weren't so incredibly ignorant you'd check the post I quoted as well. Factoring in the cost of PW:S a disc with 10k spirit doesn't have way more regen than a holy with 13k spirit factoring in PW:S costs, which is what I responded to. Please, go ahead and do the math on how much extra regen a disc with 10k spirit gets from rapture usage (you may even assume excellent play and put a 15 second timer on it), subtract the cost for said PW:S, and compare that to a holy priest with 13k spirit. Just fyi, the holy priest ends up with significantly more mana, the actual mana gained from rapture is quite small unless you're stacking spirit (which is pointless), the main perk is that it offsets the massive mana cost of PW:S (which the spell isn't balanced around, it's balanced around the mana return from rapture). So yeah, going to admit that you are wrong/unable to read?

At this poin I'm convinced you are just arguing to hear yourself speak. If you recognized from the beginning that disc had a mana regen advantage (which is does), then you should have left my comment alone because you agreed with it.

This is not in a vacuum. This discussion wasn't about what regen tools they had, or how much regen they'd get in the same gear. The discussion was about actual gameplay and how much they had to focus on mana management, and in the actual game you'll never find a disc stacking as much spirit as a holy can, since there's simply no point of it, and if the disc is using a low amount of spirit (which is common) he'll have to manage his mana just as tightly as a holy priest with high mana (in addition to focusing on rapture procs, which is part of that mana management). If you want to discuss the amount of regen both specs have at the exact same gear level you're welcomed to do that (even if it wouldn't be particularly productive), but that's not what the discussion was about nor what I talked about, which would be obvious to (almost, apparently) anyone.

But the issue here isn't geared towards mute and dumb raiders. It's geared toward progression. As a holy priest in 5.1 of course I didn't use Lightwell, because those situations were better fit for me being disc. And in my progression oriented guild, stacking for a barrier (PW:B or nullification barrier or force and verve) is not very difficult because there's always a set stack point. However, Lightwell IS harder because dps and heals have to continue what they are doing while finding the tiny Lightwell, pray to sargeras that it Ian covered by the bosses hit box, and click it. All while maintaining their dps.

Mute and dumb raiders is what you responded with. You can just as easily have a set stacking point for the lightwell, after that it's simply up to your raiders to manage to click it or not. They being able to continue to dps/heal while clicking the lightwell adds no additional requirement, skill element or effort from the priest.

I believe I've been more than reasonable on my assertions that 5.1 Disc vs Holy, holy has less mana and theoretically more Lightwell management, assuming you just don't go disc because it is currently overpowered.

Holy has less mana if you play with the same amount of spirit, no one does. Holys raidmembers (not the priest) has to manage lightwell if you are the little 1% special snowflake who decides to not use the lightspring glyph, which you already admitted to not doing, making your entire argument void (unlike the oh so complicated PW:B placement, for a second I actually thought it was easy to place these spells and shout the location, thank you for explaining the incredible complexity of such an action).

If you weren't so incredibly ignorant you'd check the post I quoted as well. Factoring in the cost of PW:S a disc with 10k spirit doesn't have way more regen than a holy with 13k spirit factoring in PW:S costs, which is what I responded to. Please, go ahead and do the math on how much extra regen a disc with 10k spirit gets from rapture usage (you may even assume excellent play and put a 15 second timer on it), subtract the cost for said PW:S, and compare that to a holy priest with 13k spirit. Just fyi, the holy priest ends up with significantly more mana, the actual mana gained from rapture is quite small unless you're stacking spirit (which is pointless), the main perk is that it offsets the massive mana cost of PW:S (which the spell isn't balanced around, it's balanced around the mana return from rapture). So yeah, going to admit that you are wrong/unable to read?

And why is stacking spirit pointless as disc? Oh that's right, because they can afford to. It's almost as if they have an ability that scales with spirit...what? Rapture? You don't say!

The biggest gains from rapture come in the form of spirit procs. Darkweave, mana tide, trinket procs, etc. this has led to some, admittedly, obscene mana returns. Hence the nerf. You see cookie, when things get nerfed it's usually because they are too strong. Rapture is too strong, which is why it was dropped to 150% and no longer scales with spirit buffs. This will make it more in line with holy, but considering that PW:S is at the very least a free heal, it still represents something holy doesn't have. This free heal, of course, counts for even more hpm when you factor in mastery and the occasional double PW:S proc. Oh, and borrowed time.

But you knew all that already, since you are so incredibly insightful.

This is not in a vacuum. This discussion wasn't about what regen tools they had, or how much regen they'd get in the same gear. The discussion was about actual gameplay and how much they had to focus on mana management, and in the actual game you'll never find a disc stacking as much spirit as a holy can, since there's simply no point of it, and if the disc is using a low amount of spirit (which is common) he'll have to manage his mana just as tightly as a holy priest with high mana (in addition to focusing on rapture procs, which is part of that mana management). If you want to discuss the amount of regen both specs have at the exact same gear level you're welcomed to do that (even if it wouldn't be particularly productive), but that's not what the discussion was about nor what I talked about, which would be obvious to (almost, apparently) anyone.

But the point that seem to soar over your head is that, again, disc can AFFORD to ditch spirit. This leads to more mastery, crit, and the occasional haste, all which begin to scale discs heals very nicely. The issue is not that they can potentially have the same regen, the issue is that they can increase their output while a holy priest cannot.

Mute and dumb raiders is what you responded with. You can just as easily have a set stacking point for the lightwell, after that it's simply up to your raiders to manage to click it or not. They being able to continue to dps/heal while clicking the lightwell adds no additional requirement, skill element or effort from the priest.

We can agree to disagree on this point, but in every progression guild I've been in (US 59 Madness), raid leaders have asked for healer input, which leads to me as a priest telling them when my lightwell would be most effective. If you are truly an excellent priest, you will be the one tellin the raid leader the best spots for you cooldowns, whether it be barrer or lightwell. Unfortunately, dps have to go an extra mile to make lightwell effective, so, in turn, a good priest will go the extra mile to help make that possible.

Holy has less mana if you play with the same amount of spirit, no one does. Holys raidmembers (not the priest) has to manage lightwell if you are the little 1% special snowflake who decides to not use the lightspring glyph, which you already admitted to not doing, making your entire argument void (unlike the oh so complicated PW:B placement, for a second I actually thought it was easy to place these spells and shout the location, thank you for explaining the incredible complexity of such an action).

I'm sorry that you are so dense. Lightwell is only negated by the fact that those circumstances are better suited to be mitigated entirely by spirit shell. Remove spirit shell, and lightwell would be an extra cooldown. But you see, that "1% special snowflake" comment is exactly what seperates the elite raiders from the ones who just aren't up to snuff. It's not a matter of being a special snowflake, it's a matter of recognizing the best tool for the job sometimes takes a little more effort. Luckily for disc they don't have to put up with it.

Cookie, why do you feel Holy should have 13k spirit and Disc get away with 10k then?

If the output is balanced around that disc needs more output stats that's entirely fine. If it isn't it's a balance issue, that can be solved either by lowering discs output or regen. This however was not what the discussion was about, it was about the skill and mana management required for the specs in-game, and a disc with 9-10k spirit doesn't have a much easier time managing their mana than a holy with 13k.

And why is stacking spirit pointless as disc? Oh that's right, because they can afford to. It's almost as if they have an ability that scales with spirit...what? Rapture? You don't say!

The biggest gains from rapture come in the form of spirit procs. Darkweave, mana tide, trinket procs, etc. this has led to some, admittedly, obscene mana returns. Hence the nerf. You see cookie, when things get nerfed it's usually because they are too strong. Rapture is too strong, which is why it was dropped to 150% and no longer scales with spirit buffs. This will make it more in line with holy, but considering that PW:S is at the very least a free heal, it still represents something holy doesn't have. This free heal, of course, counts for even more hpm when you factor in mastery and the occasional double PW:S proc. Oh, and borrowed time.

But you knew all that already, since you are so incredibly insightful.

But the point that seem to soar over your head is that, again, disc can AFFORD to ditch spirit. This leads to more mastery, crit, and the occasional haste, all which begin to scale discs heals very nicely. The issue is not that they can potentially have the same regen, the issue is that they can increase their output while a holy priest cannot.

I'm not sure if you had troubles understanding what I wrote (it sure seems that way) but this discussion was not about balance (again, if you want to discuss balance say so, but the things you are quoting from me had NOTHING to do with balance, get that through your head already), it was about gameplay, and the fact of the matter is that a disc with 10k mana doesn't have a much easier time managing their mana than a holy with 13k. Also, you're welcomed to explain to me how borrowed time is such a big hpm increase.

We can agree to disagree on this point, but in every progression guild I've been in (US 59 Madness), raid leaders have asked for healer input, which leads to me as a priest telling them when my lightwell would be most effective. If you are truly an excellent priest, you will be the one tellin the raid leader the best spots for you cooldowns, whether it be barrer or lightwell. Unfortunately, dps have to go an extra mile to make lightwell effective, so, in turn, a good priest will go the extra mile to help make that possible.

Admittedly I've been the raidleader in all but one of the decent guilds I've been in, but yes it's very normal to understand what your cds do and to inform your raid/leader about what the best usage for them is. I fail to see how understanding lightwell is more difficult than barrier, or how explaining your cd is anything remotely difficult in the first place.

I'm sorry that you are so dense. Lightwell is only negated by the fact that those circumstances are better suited to be mitigated entirely by spirit shell. Remove spirit shell, and lightwell would be an extra cooldown. But you see, that "1% special snowflake" comment is exactly what seperates the elite raiders from the ones who just aren't up to snuff. It's not a matter of being a special snowflake, it's a matter of recognizing the best tool for the job sometimes takes a little more effort. Luckily for disc they don't have to put up with it.

Yes, we'll see how many top raiders end up using lightwell in 5.2 when disc and SS is getting nerfed. I doubt it'll be many simply because the additional benefit usually won't be offsetting the slight loss in distraction it may result in for some raiders. Either way you as a player have no extra effort by using a lightwell compared to a lightspring, just the raidmembers (and please, figuring out the best glyphs for a fight isn't remotely challenging either), so again, no impact on the "skillcap" which is what the discussion was about.

So, mind telling me how many times am I going to have to explain to you that the discussion and my posts aren't about balance? I think this is the fifth post where I'm saying that and you still seem too dense to get it.

If the output is balanced around that disc needs more output stats that's entirely fine. If it isn't it's a balance issue, that can be solved either by lowering discs output or regen. This however was not what the discussion was about, it was about the skill and mana management required for the specs in-game, and a disc with 9-10k spirit doesn't have a much easier time managing their mana than a holy with 13k.

That's the fucking issue.

13,000 - 10,000 = 3,000

Going conservatively by your figures, a disc deserves 3k more secondary stats. May as well get lightweave for a ridiculous intellect proc, too. You fail to see that even though disc and holy can fight with the same mana issues, they do so at drastically different levels in secondary stats.

And stop hiding behind the notion of the initial argument." If holy has to lose 3-4k in secondary stats, that means their output is that much lower. And it's no secret that disc as holy output is about the same on live, except disc does so at lower spirit levels.

So many things are just.. Like, so far over your head its mind boggling.

You failed to see the relevance of anyone's post and continued to spew out obvious contradictions of your own words.

Disc isn't getting nerfed because the regen level was the same as other healers. The intent of healers in mop was to more heavily rely on spirit as a main stat, not reforge out of it and ignore most of the sldpirit on gear all together.

The fact at this point, you continue to say disc has the se regen levels... As holy. Like really? If anyone here is dense it's you.

Going conservatively by your figures, a disc deserves 3k more secondary stats. May as well get lightweave for a ridiculous intellect proc, too. You fail to see that even though disc and holy can fight with the same mana issues, they do so at drastically different levels in secondary stats.

And stop hiding behind the notion of the initial argument." If holy has to lose 3-4k in secondary stats, that means their output is that much lower. And it's no secret that disc as holy output is about the same on live, except disc does so at lower spirit levels.

I'm just going to quote myself:

So, mind telling me how many times am I going to have to explain to you that the discussion and my posts aren't about balance? I think this is the fifth post where I'm saying that and you still seem too dense to get it.

If you want to discuss balance feel free to, but stop quoting my posts that are about a completely different thing, it's nothing short of retarded.

Cookie your comprehension skills really lack.

So many things are just.. Like, so far over your head its mind boggling.

You failed to see the relevance of anyone's post and continued to spew out obvious contradictions of your own words.

Disc isn't getting needed because the regen level was the same. The intent of healers in mop was to more heavily rely on spirit as a main stat, not reforge out of it and ignore most of the spirit on gear all together.

The fact at this point, you continue to say disc has the se regen levels... As holy. Like really? If anyone here is sense it's you.

Please tell me where I contradict myself, please tell me how I'm ignoring the relevance in his posts when both of you repeatedly fail to understand what I'm writing. This is like talking to someone who is mentally challenged and completely unable to grasp the context, amusing, but after a while it starts to get a bit annoying.

Ok I just wasted my time reading this thread. You guys aren't even arguing about the same thing.

Ramen is arguing that disc has more mana regen than holy. This is obviously true.

Cookie is arguing that greater mana regen is not relevant to an argument of which spec has a higher skill cap. This is also true - someone trying to maximize discipline isn't running around with a ton of extra spirit and finishing fights at 80% mana going "LOL GUYS LOOK HOW MUCH MANA I HAVE LEFT" - they're dropping spirit for throughput stats and managing their mana properly.

A spec's skill cap being high or low has nothing to do with the strength of the spec. Something can be very difficult to execute but still weak, or easy to execute and extremely powerful. A "high skill cap" class would have a large deviation in output or successful encounter completion between mediocre or average play and skilled play; a "low skill cap" class would see a smaller difference.

To pre-empt the "but which one is easier" argument - anyone who thinks any of the healing specs is easy to play is welcome to link a log of them making 100% perfect use of every single global during an encounter while taking zero avoidable damage, getting maximal use out of all cooldowns and procs, and always choosing the correct spell and target for the situation. Absolute skill cap is irrelevant for almost everyone - there's always something you could be doing better. (If you disagree, logs please!)

Also grats on successfully trolling me into actually posting instead of just reading and laughing.

Hi, mana tide wants to say hi to you, as well as spirits of the sun/relic of chi.

So, please quote where I'm saying that it isn't. I would suppose that you are refering to this:

the actual mana gained from rapture is quite small unless you're stacking spirit (which is pointless), the main perk is that it offsets the massive mana cost of PW:S (which the spell isn't balanced around, it's balanced around the mana return from rapture)

where I in no way say that it isn't mana tool, I'm merly explaining that PW:S incredibly high mana cost is designed around said mana tool existing.

Also, still waiting for that quote of me contradicting myself. You have been reading my posts incorrectly all day, and even admitted that you did, are you going to start reading them properly anytime soon? If you can't I suggest that you go and spend a bit more time studying and a bit less time on the forums.

Cookie, I'll break this down like I'm speaking to a five year old.

Holy has more mana problems than disc.

Spirit is related to mana.

Holy needs more spirit than disc to equal their regen.

Because holy needs more spirit, they have quite a bit less secondary stats than disc.

Since holy has less secondary stats, their heals are not quite as effective, missing out on mastery, crit, and haste.

Therefore, holy's mana problems are directly related to balance.

Both balance and mana problems are directly related to holy needing to squeeze more out of what it has, coming full circle to my original statements.

I rest my case. Goodnight.

If your case is about holy being weaker than disc resulting in a higher skillcap, say so, however this is not what you've been typing over the last few pages (nor is it true).

I have actually already broken down my argument to the point where a five year old would understand it (numerous times), but I guess I'll try a tenth time.
The parts you are quotingARE
NOT
ABOUT
BALANCE
in any way, shape, or form. They are about gameplay. Now, try to stay after me: NOT. ABOUT. BALANCE. Here, I'll quote myself a few times over the last few pages, maybe that'll help!

If you want to discuss balance feel free to, but stop quoting my posts that are about a completely different thing

this discussion was not about balance (again, if you want to discuss balance say so, but the things you are quoting from me had NOTHING to do with balance

This discussion wasn't about what regen tools they had, or how much regen they'd get in the same gear. The discussion was about actual gameplay

Do you actually believe that my "case" ever was that disc and holy had equal regen at equal amounts of spirit (since this is the only thing you've "proven wrong")? That's actually kinda offending, and very ignorant:P. Also you should probably let me explain what my opinion/argument is, if you decide what my arguments are, for me, it's hard to have a discussion in the first place

Strawman, I never stated that holy and disc had the same regen at the same spirit level, yet you are speaking as if that's my argument.

The net result of a spec having less regen is (unless it's a difference that can't be compensated by gearing, and in this case it isn't, at least in 10 man) a difference in how much output you can gear for.

Every healing spec should only gear spirit to a point where they are reasonably comfortable with regen and then go for throughput stas. If disc due to this can afford to put more stats into throughput that's a balance issue, even if disc could heal more (which it can't, raw hps wise, even with the additional stats) that wouldn't have any impact on the skillcap.

I am seriously starting to question how your mind works, I don't mean to be offensive but if you don't understand what I'm saying by now something is very wrong with you.

Cookie, now the discussion is not about balance between the speccs either? "Disc vs Holy", no...? Hm... I do like these forums a lot better than EU/US, I think we have better discussions here, less jibberish. Starting to derail a bit...

It says it all about how experienced you are with Holy specc, if you think we have both equal mana management/regen, but you want 10k to be happy as Disc, and I promise, 13k wont settle it for me as Holy on many fights, it certainly wont in 5.2 with the dmg Ive seen on the PTR Perhaps at 15k I can start thinking of getting some more secondary stats, I look forward to that at the end of t15 perhaps, but by then they usually nerf healers manaregen, so Holy usually don't get to experience the luxury of having endless mana...

I play both specc's a lot since start of WotLK (Holy since start of BC), but mostly Disc in MoP (I would guess 80% actually), since it just makes fights a lot easier *cough, raidmembers telling me to* and where Holy is suppose to shine with AoE Chakra and all, heavy dmg fights, Disc shine, mana don't matter and it is absolutly forgiving (and actually wanted) to cast a few extra PoHs that does 100% overhealing, while as Holy, I swear, I curse irl everytime a PoH lands that is not effective, cause it means I will oom sooner and I need to switch to Inner Will on almost every AoE fight and wait for Mindbender to come off CD before I can cast anything else than CoH+PoM that benefits from the reduced manacost, very often completly starved at the last minutes of a boss, and that just doesnt happen to Disc now, cause I can feed on Rapture proccs.

I would these changes to Holy, and ofc balance it all so it won't be OP in any way:

Get rid of the AE/ST restrictions Chakras bring, gosh, I don't understand why they cling on to this, so many hates it. Make it a choice to either dps or heal atleast.
Reintroduce the old Inspiration (-10% physical dmg taken if crit) for more "worth" other than just raw healing.
Reintroduce the old Twist of Fate (increasing healing to targets below 50% by 20(25%?)).
Our toolkit needs balance, especially our Sanctuary groundspell, that also could use shorter duration, raids arent stacking for this long in any fight anymore like in DS where it actually was useful and healed for the same (or higher) amount than it does now in MoP 25's! Could also be transformed into a real Sanctuary as Saph suggested on EU forums, increasing healing taken while standing in it.

When you make calculations around Holy, do think about the Chakra, and especially the lack of Chakra buff on half our toolkit at the time. It's not like we ONLY use the right spells. We also lost our higher Holy Concentration (more base manaregen) that was there for Holy cause we lack secondary manaresources other classes have.

I hope the Disc changes plays out well so Holy becomes as good choice for hardmodes, and I think they will. Looks promising in that department atleast.

Cookie, now the discussion is not about balance between the speccs either? "Disc vs Holy", no...? Hm... I do like these forums a lot better than EU/US, I think we have better discussions here, less jibberish. Starting to derail a bit...

On previous pages, and where they have quoted me, the subject was about the gameplay and skillcap of said spec which is somewhat related to the topic but in retrospect may have been better suited for a new thread. If they don't want to discuss this that's entirely fine, I'm not particulary interested in continuing to discuss that either, but quoting me and pretending like the discussion was about something entirely different is nothing short of retarded and ignorant.

Holy priests stacking spirit is not gameplay, it is balance. No holy
Priest could survive stacking intel/mastery and reforgimg out of
Spirit.

How can
You
Possibly think that's gameplay?

Okay, what is wrong with you and your reading comprehension? What I've been saying for three fucking pages right now is that holy priests stacking spirit is a balance issue and that the things you and ramen have quoted from me are about something entirely different (and even about a discussion that you started, christ).

Holy must play better to stay on par with disc. You have to know what to cast and when to cast it just to be able to pull the numbers disc does while fighting mana much more.

I consider myself skilled, having downed all heroic content from ICC on and having 15/16 H of this current tier, half of which I did as disc, and I know from personal experience that disc has so few mana problems it's almost a joke.

I must play better and more wisely as a holy priest just for the sake of mana. I do not have to do this while playing disc. This is because of discs regen mechanics. Plain and simple, holy's mana regen problems mean that to play it properly or on par with disc, you must play a little bit better and choose more carefully what actions you take and when.

Digest it. Think about it. It's not that hard to understand when you really chew on it.

Holy must play better to stay on par with disc. You have to know what to cast and when to cast it just to be able to pull the numbers disc does while fighting mana much more.

If that's what you want to say you should probably say so instead of repeating something else over the course of three pages, don't you think? Instead you have been going on and on about extra secondary stats giving disc a balance advantage over holy (which is a very minor reason and not necessarily an issue) while claiming that I have said that it didn't (tip: this is not what I said).

I consider myself skilled, having downed all heroic content from ICC on and having 15/16 H of this current tier, half of which I did as disc, and I know from personal experience that disc has so few mana problems it's almost a joke.

I must play better and more wisely as a holy priest just for the sake of mana. I do not have to do this while playing disc. This is because of discs regen mechanics. Plain and simple, holy's mana regen problems mean that to play it properly or on par with disc, you must play a little bit better and choose more carefully what actions you take and when.

1.) Do you also need to play more wisely and manage mana more as holy if you use 0 spirit as disc and 20k as holy? Obviously not. You gear until you have the mana to do your job, and then you go for throughput stats. If you have no or insignificant mana issues as disc that means that you went for too much mana, simple enough? That you chose to play the spec with a bigger margin of error doesn't say anything about the skill required to play said spec.

2.) Do you know what skillcap means? That's about how hard it is to play a spec picture perfectly, that you suffer more from screwing up as holy is irrelevant regarding this (not that you do assuming that you use significantly less spirit as disc), since screwing up means that you weren't playing at the skillcap in the first place.

It's great to see that it just took me three pages to make you understand 1/10:th of what I said, maybe you can understand the rest eventually if I keep using very simple words.

I do believe disc/holy will be on very very similar levels, while also achieving a very different playstyle in terms of what each spec has to offer

Disc being mitigation still, holy being raw HPS.

I like where things are going for 5.2 but...

This 100% heal 100% bubble on crits thing... I am unsure how I feel about it, for me personally. It makes disc even less attractive to me now then before. Now, I can at least bear to force myself to play it.

5.2, unless I try it and absolutely love the change.... then IDK.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 03:48 AM ----------

If that's what you want to say you should probably say so instead of repeating something else over the course of 3 pages, don't you think?

...... Repeating something else? He has been saying the same thing.... this entire..time.. i just can't... /facepalm

1.) Do you also need to play more wisely and manage mana more as holy if you use 0 spirit as disc? Obviously not. You gear until you have the mana to do your job, and then you go for throughput stats. If you have no or insignificant mana issues as disc that means that you went for too much mana, simple enough? That you chose to play the spec with a bigger margin of error doesn't say anything about the skill required to play said spec.

First of all, that's a ridiculous statement to begin with.

If you have no or insignificant mana issues as disc that means that you went for too much mana, simple enough? That you chose to play the spec with a bigger margin of error doesn't say anything about the skill required to play said spec.

Which is exactly why 5.2 changes have gone into the game as they are. Because disc has been, was been, broken since they buffed rapture to ungodly amounts.

Yet you were arguing rapture wasn't a regen tool.

Cookie, no matter how you look at it. If rapture procs while mana tide is down, or relic of chi, or whatever spirit trinket you have...

You are looking at least 20k BONUS mana return exceeding what PW:S cost.

Considering how often trinkets are procing, cloaks, enchants, mana tides.... you are realisticly looking at 30k raptures regardless of the cost of PW:S

Thus making it a large mana regeneration tool, one of which holy does not have.

Your earlier arguments were stating the opposite, that rapture is in no way shape or form a significant mana regen tool OTHER THEN TO RECOVER MANA LOST FROM PW:S Which is false, due to the brokenness of spirit procs on items.

...... Repeating something else? He has been saying the same thing.... this entire..time.. i just can't... /facepalm

Yes, I was forced to repeat myself since you were completely unable to understand what I meant, or your responses might actually have made a shred of sense.

First of all, that's a ridiculous statement to begin with.

If you were able to comprehend something with a non-extreme example I probably wouldn't have to.

Yet you were arguing rapture wasn't a regen tool.

Your earlier arguments were stating the opposite, that rapture is in no way shape or form a significant mana regen tool OTHER THEN TO RECOVER MANA LOST FROM PW:S Which is false, due to the brokenness of spirit procs on items.

So in me saying you contradict yourself, absolutely you do.

So, for the tenth time, quote where I'm contradicting myself (are you actually going to do this soon), you start saying that every time I'm discussing something (usually when you have nothing to respond with) yet never shows me where I did this. I will still assume that you mean this part (since I can't find anything else even close to resembling what you said).

the actual mana gained from rapture is quite small unless you're stacking spirit (which is pointless), the main perk is that it offsets the massive mana cost of PW:S (which the spell isn't balanced around, it's balanced around the mana return from rapture).

I am saying that rapture is a mana regen tool. However I am also saying is that PW:S's cost is balanced/designed around said regen tool and that recovering this mana is the main (no, not only) purpose. Do you find any of these statements incorrect?