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This notion that SI don't innovate because they have no competition needs to die ASAP. "Sitting on their laurels" would be churning out essentially the same game year after year with very few changes. That is certainly not the case with FM19.

And why are some people so tied to the idea that SI need a completely new match engine just because there are a few issues? If you found a couple of cracks in the ceiling, you wouldn't demolish your house and completely rebuild it.

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Just looked at all the games I played in January (6 - one friendly, two cup games and three league games) and the woodwork has been hit 9 times, 8 of them by my team. I drew two of the matches and won the other four so this isn't out of rage, but it just seems completely ridiculous; I've never known a streak of a team hitting the bar in that many consecutive games in real life. Are we acknowledging that there is an issue with this?

Edit > Just went back and checked December too (6 games - five in the league, one in the cup). In 12 games in the last two months my team only hasn't hit the woodwork in a match once - a cup game against a much bigger opposition where we had far less of the ball than usual. That's in over 90% of my games in that period. Woodwork was hit 18 times in 12 matches (including opposition hitting the woodwork too).

I welcome anyone to try to convince me this isn't an ME issue.

Edit 2 > Investigated further and checked all my league games only this season (20 played out of 34). My team has hit the woodwork 18 times in 20 league games. I'm playing in the Portuguese second division and can't statistical data for it, but this season in the English Premier League, Chelsea top the charts with hitting the woodwork 19 times in 30 games, and the league average is just shy of 11. I would be very interested to see what the longest consecutive game streaks of hitting the woodwork are too, but I don't think that data exists. Regardless, at the moment I'm on course to finish the league campaign with hitting the bar around 30 to 31 times in 34 games, and whilst I can't be bothered to go back and check previous seasons, I feel like I hit the bar most games no matter what team and league I play in, so this isn't just a fluke season.

Initially just wrote the above but figured I'll make a proper post out of it.

Will preface this by saying this is the first FM I've properly played since FM16, and I am impressed by a lot of the added features:

- Dynamics is a great feature and largely well-implemented. Linked to this I generally haven't found players to be totally unreasonable anymore and it's also no longer impossible to cure a player of unhappiness - in FM16 I never saw a player drop an issue once they got the ump.

- Love some of the transfer options - buy/sell players who have signed pre-contracts early, don't ratify transfer until replacement has been brought, transfer negotiations, whilst still not perfect, are a lot more reasonable.

- It's nice to finally see big players actually going to small leagues for money. This is the first FM I've played where big names regularly go to China and the US long into the future. On FM16 once all the big players left those leagues on their initial contacts no new big players would go there. I'm presuming this is a tweak to the power of league/club reputation and the power of money, which I feel is very well represented in FM19.

- Injuries are finally perfectly balanced. The regularity of injuries and injury lengths are bang on, kudos for this. Also match condition and sharpness is also a lot more realistic in this version.

Now onto some negatives.

- Training. In theory, it's great. In reality, it's dull as dishwater having to go through and do it every month. I've found that it has such an effect on how well your players perform in matches (which is both a positive and a negative - more later) that I have to do it, but it is so, so boring. Every assistant manager I've had so far (three of them) are all brain-dead when it comes to organising training, leaving me no option but to do it. I'm not one of these managers to delegate - never use a DOF, I attend every press conference and negotiate all contracts at all levels of the club, so I don't mind micro management but training is pushing it a bit. It's just so dull and annoying that assman can't organise anything close to what I want (and what would be logical)

- Mentoring. Really don't like this. I understand the reasoning behind it as opposed to tutoring but it's just a mess to be honest. In classic FM fashion it's not really been explained properly and I've tried it at three different clubs now and have seen very little improvement in any mentoring groups. Linked to this is the seemingly OP effect of squad professionalism - players I've signed with 19, 20 Determination see their Determination attribute plummet by three or four points within half a season, and I can't find a way to stop this. Just seems daft, in real life Ronaldinho didn't bring down Carles Puyol's determination. Javier Zanetti didn't become any less focussed because Adriano played at the same club for a few years.

- Players ask for new contracts way too regularly. Pretty self-explanatory and I've read other people have complained about this so will presume this will be looked at.

- Morale seems way too powerful. This goes both ways, if a player is even slightly unhappy they just become completely useless, whereas if you keep the squad's morale on Very Good or above you can beat teams who should be steamrollering you. It really feels like morale manager rather than football manager sometimes.

- Scheduling. Albeit I played with downloaded databases a lot of the time so I know this isn't strictly an SI issue but some of the scheduling is highly questionable, and the 'request to postpone match' option doesn't appear at crucial times. Like, 23 first team players got called up at one point and there was no option to postpone the match. I feel this feature could be implemented better.

ME issues

- Defensive formations. They just seem way too good. If I come up against a team playing 4-1-4-1 I just holiday through it at this point to save myself raging. I've tried so, so many different tactics, watched matches on full highlights and adjusted based on what I can see, everything... and nothing works. This is another thing I've seen complained about a lot so I'd hope in FM20 it will be toned down. So many teams, even top teams challenging for continental football or even the league title will play park the bus, at home. It makes no sense whatsoever, very few teams will play this way week in, week out (especially not top teams, and especially not at home), but on FM it's probably the most common tactic I encounter save for 4-2-3-1. This is absolutely the worst thing about FM19 in my opinion. I get that sometimes teams pull off an absolute defensive masterclass (Inter vs Barcelona irl) but in FM you come up against it with such regularity and such little success no matter what that it's honestly demoralising and seems futile. It's like Man City vs Burton every two games, but Burton always come up on top. In reality they lost 9-0, on this game it feels like if a team puts out a defensive formation then you'll score a single goal if you're lucky, no matter what the teams are. I understand there has to be a balance of gaming fun and tactical understanding, and whilst I'm no super tactician I'm also not totally inept but the defensive leaning FM19 has defies all logic imo.

- Long shots and set pieces. Again well documented, it seems 80% of goals in FM19 come under one of these two categories. I've had two unbeaten seasons now but it's just dull to watch as the same five or six goals are scored on rotation. There's very little in terms of goal variety. As I mentioned earlier, if you work on set pieces at least once a week in training, you could beat Barcelona with Basingstoke Town. They're that effective.

- How rubbish strikers are in general. Tall Target Men are the only ones I can get to put up good, consistent numbers - Poachers seem absolutely useless and Advanced Forwards are average but very streaky. This seems linked to how overpowered defending seems on this version (would also explain why so many goals are from pot-shots and set pieces...). Scoring from central positions is way off too, I don't even worry anymore if a player goes clean through on goal because 8/10 times the keeper will save it, even if it was Aguero vs a 16 year old Bhutanese regen GK. It's like CCCs are there to make you rage. Keepers on a regular basis make saves from CCCs that would be up there with Banks vs Pele. Scoring from wider positions is a lot easier, but this is also frustrating because...

- Wingers don't seem to follow instructions. I want my AMR to stay wide at almost all times, yet he's constantly cutting in and taking shots with his left, running into cul-de-sacs or just being way out of positions. He has no counter-effective PPMs and I've told him to stay wide and run wide with the ball, but it's just ignored. It's so so frustrating.

- Penalties, I'm seven years into my save and have never seen a penalty not hit the target. They've all either resulted in a goal or the keeper making a save, never been wide nor high. Seems like a bug.

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The Match Engine is not perfect, obviously, but please name another computer game engine that simulates its chosen sport more accurately than FM - if you can.

The vast majority of motor racing simulators - but then, those are true simulations based on physics engines. The big problem with FM has always been that it is simulating outcomes; it doesn't start from a model of a player's physical behaviour so it has huge constraints around handling people trying odd formations. This is why I have previously suggested that SI could do with thinking more in terms of 'Inverting the Pyramid' than an engine that just aims to follow what current football trends are.

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I don't like what happened to kit selection in 19.3. Teams now seem to play in away kits whenever they play away unless it clashes with opposition home kit. Rangers vs Celtic and it's not blue vs green/white would never happen.

This is what's so annoying about FM - while it pushes forward in some areas it seem to needlessly go backwards in totally unrelated areas. And SI seem to have Theresa May levels of stubbornness when it comes to adopting simple solutions like letting the player override the game's choice, which has been floating around as a suggestion for dealing with wrong kit/clashing kit problems for years.

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The vast majority of motor racing simulators - but then, those are true simulations based on physics engines. The big problem with FM has always been that it is simulating outcomes; it doesn't start from a model of a player's physical behaviour so it has huge constraints around handling people trying odd formations. This is why I have previously suggested that SI could do with thinking more in terms of 'Inverting the Pyramid' than an engine that just aims to follow what current football trends are.

It is highly questionably if FMers would react all too well to a "realistic" sim of Football. No less as the more popular Modus Operandi of playing is treading a club like a life-time commitment (when sacked whinge, wash, rage, start over). Whereas real Managers on average barely last 2, 3 Seasons in their Job (same as the game's AI...) -- not seldom sacked during a short- to mid-term "slump" that is almost hard-coded into the rules of a Sports as ultra-low scoring, competitive and thus of fine margins as Football. Similar to a spell of injuries: If a Player was even remotely approaching a Season such as Klopp's last one at Dortmund -- or Zidane's 2017/2018 La Liga Season -- it would be immediately reported as a bug. And considered "unfun".

Of Course SI know this. Hence the game isn't like that at all. Actually you can lessen the Impact of Chance/ randomness from the get-go. In parts due how defending in the engine works -- in parts due how the AI is coded (mostly reacting to scorelines as opposed to what's actually goingn on on the pitch).

edit: As of the perceived "realism" of the ME though: You can't allow (for the AI too) tactical decisions and movement Patterns that you would never see on a pitch of Football, yet at the same time Focus on developing a "realistic" engine. Same as Code an AI that tries to Mimic Burnley from last Season in 9/10 Matches (to exagerrate), yet expect that to Show similar data and Play as to real Football... that's illogical. A Major "makeover" in Terms of realism has to also consider coding more realistic AI -- as well as only allowing decisions that actually happen on a pitch of footie -- AI included (it took me two Matches into FM19 to spot at least some of the same AI Things).

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What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

What your alternative? Stop any discussion? Arrange a parade every third Thursday of the month?
People just discuss about pressing styles and ways to possible improves, "Controversy served the cause of truth".

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What your alternative? Stop any discussion? Arrange a parade every third Thursday of the month?
People just discuss about pressing styles and ways to possible improves, "Controversy served the cause of truth".

What agenda did you come up with in this dialogue?

I'm just exasperated at those users who see that something's not quite right with the Match Engine and immediately say, "We need to rip it up and start again", without thinking about the bigger picture.

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What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

Not knowing how the engine is built that's difficult to say, but it seems that changes are being made to the way roles operate when there could be a more fundamental issue with how players interpret space and select options. If that's baked into the core of the ME and is not alterable without a rewrite then maybe that is what needs to be considered. Trying to balance within the current framework has been attempted for a long time now - it's often different in some aspects, but rarely better overall.

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I'm just exasperated at those users who see that something's not quite right with the Match Engine and immediately say, "We need to rip it up and start again", without thinking about the bigger picture.

Well as I understand current ME is wallow in circle of issues. I not sure about English correct translate, but I know this situation as 'Technical crutch'. One issue fixed by crutch which create next issue, which fixed another issue etc.
How old this tool and basis of ME? How outdated are the algorithms, logic and principles of this foundation? I dont know, but unique rare ME still rare. I dont see this like users blame SI (except of some)

I know about detais issue of stadiums without corner tribunes and IMO its a issue of rare tools too. I can find another examples but honestly dont want to public investigation.

In other hand, I can't say to SI that they NEED/MUST to create new ME. I just can say I WISH and сan you blame me for this?

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This is what's so annoying about FM - while it pushes forward in some areas it seem to needlessly go backwards in totally unrelated areas. And SI seem to have Theresa May levels of stubbornness when it comes to adopting simple solutions like letting the player override the game's choice, which has been floating around as a suggestion for dealing with wrong kit/clashing kit problems for years.

That would be an instant fix to this madness, but to be honest it seemed absolutely perfect before patch 19.3 why they've fiddled with it I have no idea. It's the old saying if it ain't broke break it. Come on SI stick it back the way it was before, teams do not wear away kits in all away matches you know that.

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I really don't think most peoples problems with strikers are tactical issues. Like I said I have a star striker who's scores 40 goals in a season, but if he spent the whole season scoring at the pace he's scored at in the 2nd half, he'd only have like a dozen. And I haven't changed anything tactically.

Btw. this would be much easier to answer if FM would provide Feedback whether the chances he got changed.

We're Talking even as "simple" as:

- How many Players were between the Forward and the Opposition Goal on average?
- How many shots the Forward has were off set pieces / counters / positional Play?
- Shot spread Analysis graphics showing the Shooting positions that allow you to filter for Dates (all shots between match day #17 and #40), day

But as said, from my experience (the tactical communities prove this every year anyway), if real "slumps" persist the chances have changed. In shot numbers (which you can check) and/or the Kind of chances. That is, there are largely tactical factors at Play -- your Opposition included. The more "prominent" one throughout the years is that so called "2nd Seasons Syndrom", mainly caused by that the game's AI reacts to team's changing reputations. E.g. a side overperforming now on average Plays tighter defenses rather than it being gifted (visually!) space. However, during saves there are also a lit of AI manager switcheroos, as they don't last forever at their Clubs. Each AI prefers different traits and formations, which also changes the ballpark. You may have realized that some of them defend the flanks better, some the central zones, etc.

Which may be one of the reasons why SI are reluctantn to include further Feedback. It would just provide another Edge over the game's AI, as similar to all match Analysis Tools, the AI cannot make "intelligent" use of it. (In formative years SI were reluctant to introduce any Tools at all, as they considered them a "cheat"). In real Football, scoring streaks are oft a tad different...……. (Ronaldo last term scoring 4 Goals off over 100 shots in between September and January, mostly good positions -- and then still rising to 26 in the remaining monhts of La Liga, neither spell predicatlbe in any Kind of way, but then real Football unlike a match engine Code isn't Maths -- bookies should offer bets on FM rather than footie! )

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Also I have to say I have a serious issue with injuries this season. Overall the total number of player-days missed due to injury seems realistic. But when a player is "injury prone" the game can be absolutely absurd about this. In his first 8 seasons with me, Richarlison has had 66 injuries. And he has had 2 more only 1 month into his 9th season. That is completely bonkers.

You can keep the overall number of missed days the same, but I think the injury system should be a lot more luck-based. Most injuries are bad luck, not a case of a player having been born with some sort of freak condition that makes every single part of their body prone to falling apart at any given time.

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What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

They change the ME every few years, if i'm not correct they changed in 14 and then 16 and then 18/19. I buy FM every 2 years as they had a knack for improving it's previous fm and redoing stuff for the next. I missed 18 purposely to see 19 being better made and it never happened. They decided to change it's sequence and 20 will probably follow on this and if that fails then I dunno what they'll do. I know it's more complex but 15/17 ME has been great so surely they could use the stuff from there to work around it and make it better unless it's completely impossible to do so with improved graphics,animations, fluidity and realistic features.

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They change the ME every few years, if i'm not correct they changed in 14 and then 16 and then 18/19. I buy FM every 2 years as they had a knack for improving it's previous fm and redoing stuff for the next. I missed 18 purposely to see 19 being better made and it never happened. They decided to change it's sequence and 20 will probably follow on this and if that fails then I dunno what they'll do. I know it's more complex but 15/17 ME has been great so surely they could use the stuff from there to work around it and make it better unless it's completely impossible to do so with improved graphics,animations, fluidity and realistic features.

SI make changes to the ME pretty much every year, but I can't remember the last time they started from scratch.

You might say that FM17's ME was great, but you're probably remembering it through rose-tinted spectacles. My biggest gripe was that cross-shot goals were surprisingly common (they aren't in FM19), and I also thought something was never quite right about winger movement, though I couldn't put my finger on it. You'll also find other complaints from other users in FM17's feedback thread.

Rather than saying FM17's ME was definitively better than FM19's, you can more accurately say it had different issues.

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Crossing doesn't seem overpowered in this OP but it's still not perfect as wide players are super happy to pump a couple dozen crosses per match directly into defenders' legs.

Also deep crossing specifically may still be overpowered. IRL this is a very low percentage move but in FM19 you see a pretty good number of goals from it. Fullbacks are not very good at defending the back post.

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BTW the streakiness of finishing doesn't apply just to strikers. My club who scored 80 goals in the league in the prior season has scored 3 in the first 4 matches in the next season, with keepers averaging 9 saves per match against me. With middling morale all players (not just strikers) seem to pound the ball into the keeper and the legs of defenders over and over again.

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Every club will have a wage budget regardless of finances. You go wildly over that and it doesn't matter if you have billions in the bank, you'll be restricted with what you can offer players.

I suspect that's what's happened here, either that or you've failed FFP.

He means the cap on wages he can offer an individual player is less than what top players want, rendering Man City incapable of landing top players despite all their money. Everyone can agree that shouldn't be the case.

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BTW the streakiness of finishing doesn't apply just to strikers. My club who scored 80 goals in the league in the prior season has scored 3 in the first 4 matches in the next season, with keepers averaging 9 saves per match against me. With middling morale all players (not just strikers) seem to pound the ball into the keeper and the legs of defenders over and over again.

Whilst 3 out of 4 really is a rather small sample size (you're some likely to find a similar sequence in a Prior Season, it just didn'T happen to be the first four…): What if they are doing such because in all of those Matches they were struggling for space? What are those shots actually like? Even in simple Terms, where do they originate from? Set pieces? Open Play? Counter attacks? Crosses from Deep? Crosses from the byline? Through balls from narrow angles? Through balls from wide? Header flick-ons into the run of Players? Headers? Shots? Deflections? Perhaps even a bugged one on one scenario that is fired at the keeper like 10 out of times? Anything? What is specifically goingn on in those Matches to begin with?

By ruling out basically any other part of the game except for morale you will always randomize your results some in any ME/release. There were folk before who never changed a single Thing expect for their Team talks -- every time they dropped a Point, they attributed it to their Team talk (no matter how Long SI argued how small ist effects would be, and how short it would last). Then again, since the game's AI isn't meant to be too diffult, er "smart", you're never forced to challenge anything, so eventually will be back on track either way (unless sacked). I've just seen this thread where it was argued you basically ignore some of the tactical part outright -- which is one of the biggest in the game (to the dismay of some). // As a side.-note, I agree with you that the Chance for/against stats aren't that meaningful, as they are based on stats that haven't ever been that meaningful. Subjective Analysis, experience and Interpretation has Always trumped SI's Definition of what a "Chance" is. In parts because there are all Kinds of attempts lumped together, some significantly better, some significantly worse. But also because it's a subjective definition. For instance if SI decide a Header is NEVER to be counted a "big Chance", as they do btw, so be it. No matter how likely it is to actually be a goal.

As comparably "vanilla" as the AI is, it knows concepts such as "match Management", that is possibly decreasing the Chance of conceding when already being in front; increasing the Chance of scoring when pushing for a Goal (at the Risk of conceding further itself); chopping Things up at half time if the result doesn't seem to go its way (multiple Subs included); trying to Keep the Damage to a Minimum so that heads don't fully drop after the trashing is over; or trying to frustrate an attacking opposition. Atop of all, not all AI Play off the same base foundation and formation to begin with. AI does all of this in comparably generic ways, as obviously it can't actually "read a match" (and if SI could Code such, they'd probably quickly lose key staff to other fields than game development). And some stuff, such as a massive tactical switcheroo at HT is arguably more of a pot shot as opposed to an "intelligent" deicsion. Still, apparently, there's reason for its relative "vanilaness". That said, it'd be real interesting to look into morale and ist effects, perhaps with an in-game Editor that allows us to modify.

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SI make changes to the ME pretty much every year, but I can't remember the last time they started from scratch.

You might say that FM17's ME was great, but you're probably remembering it through rose-tinted spectacles. My biggest gripe was that cross-shot goals were surprisingly common (they aren't in FM19), and I also thought something was never quite right about winger movement, though I couldn't put my finger on it. You'll also find other complaints from other users in FM17's feedback thread.

Rather than saying FM17's ME was definitively better than FM19's, you can more accurately say it had different issues.

Surely scratch was implemented in it's first 3d measure right? Also im pretty sure they advertised fm16 as a whole new match engine so I presumed it was but more or less a similar outcome.

Unfortunately not, been back on 17 for a bit now and it seems alot smoother and better in most areas than 19 but obviously not without its faults of course. Winger movement was fine but defence with wingers would make them stay wide leaving the mid wide open unless you implemented a system where a 3 man mid or a diamond/less width would bolster your chances (thought i'd mention it anyway simply because its a short term solution rather than one that is fully rectified).

Overall it is and im sure many people would agree from those that think 19 is weaker generically. I think the ME is very important if not the most important of the game so to have issues that are big ruining the experience over something quite fulfilling and working greatly without bugs that effect it "Massively" than 19 leads me to this conclusion imo anyway.

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I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches. West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches. I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3. Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

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Also I have to say I have a serious issue with injuries this season. Overall the total number of player-days missed due to injury seems realistic. But when a player is "injury prone" the game can be absolutely absurd about this. In his first 8 seasons with me, Richarlison has had 66 injuries. And he has had 2 more only 1 month into his 9th season. That is completely bonkers.

You can keep the overall number of missed days the same, but I think the injury system should be a lot more luck-based. Most injuries are bad luck, not a case of a player having been born with some sort of freak condition that makes every single part of their body prone to falling apart at any given time.

Not sure I agree with this. Look at a guy like Ruben Loftus-Cheek. He hasn't had a long spell of health in the 7 years he's been in and around the Chelsea team.

It also depends how it's presented. In real life the manager says something like "Ruben isn't in the squad today because we're making sure his back isn't a bigger issue going forward." Technically not an "injury" but in FM this would be presented as one of those orange injuries like "back tightness, 3 days."

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I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches. West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches. I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3. Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

It's not about being a "small sample size example".

It's rather about "non-sense logic".

This is not even a feedback to the game honestly and it just put a nail in users brain that games are rigged and FM is ruled by, as you stated, "unseen forces". I admit mathematics is still a mystery for me, but we've passed the line now.

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I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches. West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches. I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3. Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

I really am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post. Are you saying that because a team at the top of the league travels to a team at the bottom and loses is somehow something wrong with the ME?

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I really am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post. Are you saying that because a team at the top of the league travels to a team at the bottom and loses is somehow something wrong with the ME?

I think he's referring to the fact that westham have scored alot less and they're awful but as soon as he plays them, they turn up to batter him with 4 goals which they've struggled to do in approx of 5 matches. I get where he's coming from as it happens quite a few times in the season that the low scorers end up blasting you with goals that they couldn't do all season. But then again there's too many factors such as tactic/formations, morale (being too confident/complacent) and the fact it's an away game. Then again those "freak games" they have are mostly against the player.

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I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches. West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches. I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3. Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

In soccer, the rate at which shots are scored is massively variable. A club might win 1-0 on a perfect long-distance strike one week and then lose 2-1 the next while firing a dozen shots from good positions right into the keeper's chest.

It's hard to make a case as to FM, as you can create gaps on the pitch that in Football typically don't ever exist and that the AI, as it's "limited", at best exploits by Chance once in every Five Purple coloured moons (I'd personally like to see all of that to go). Basically, if it was one those Matches where every shot just went flying in, this will not repeat (in-game, either way). If however you gifted that particularly Fulham AI (the Formation it played, the roles it chose, its general approach) cans of space, it will. I'd had my couple of bogus AI approaches throughout the years, but I couldn't stop the rot until I reacted to them (for instance the 4-2-3-1 narrow in past Releases overloading the centre of the pitch with masses of bodies that were free for all if not specifically countered). Speaking of AI and this space that would not exist in football, the AI in AI vs AI Matches engages in real shenanigans too contributing to wild scorelines quite a bit on the occasions.

Btw. That Fulham Team couldn't possible been all to good in "morale" shape but still scored a fistful. :P

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I really am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post. Are you saying that because a team at the top of the league travels to a team at the bottom and loses is somehow something wrong with the ME?

No, it was more about the 20th place team putting 4 goals past the best defense in the league who'd only allowed 1 goal in the last 6 matches.

I'm not a "the ME is rigged/scripted" person but that sort of result does make it feel like there are unseen attribute bonuses given to teams that can drastically alter the outcome of individual matches.

Although Svenc absolutely has a point that the 20th place team couldn't have had great morale, so I can't chalk it up to that.

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No, it was more about the 20th place team putting 4 goals past the best defense in the league who'd only allowed 1 goal in the last 6 matches.

I'm not a "the ME is rigged/scripted" person but that sort of result does make it feel like there are unseen attribute bonuses given to teams that can drastically alter the outcome of individual matches.

Although Svenc absolutely has a point that the 20th place team couldn't have had great morale, so I can't chalk it up to that.

It's one game. It;'s not even a small sample size. It's basically no sample at all.

And just for clarification, there no random arbitrary unseen bonuses given to teams.

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I'm not a "the ME is rigged/scripted" person but that sort of result does make it feel like there are unseen attribute bonuses given to teams that can drastically alter the outcome of individual Matches.

If they had a load of space gifted, it was primarily tacitcal though. If just every shot went flying in (Corners, free kicks, etc.) it was something else, including random Chance. Speaking About that "dead last in the table", a thought.

1) They still averaged almost a Goal per match so far (against Opposition unknown)
2) They must not be terribad at all -- the rules of Football ensure that over the relatively short spawn of a Season there will be Serial winners (who win more) and losers (who lose more), as that's what Matches eventually come to mostly (whether closely fought or one sided). You can actually make an Editor Experiment to prove this. The only noticeable difference here to an actual table is in the Goal differenes, as there are no frequent "trashings" anymore.

Oh, and another thought:

Just because a Team after 5 Matches (!) had conceded little, does not equal to having the best defense in the league.

Is there any part of the game you actually engage in? Tactics it apparently isn't much, man management you never enjoyed statistical or match Analysis... That's not meant to be a jab, but: how do you ever figure out if you played well or if you didn't? Or what is actually going on? (Hopefully not based on FM's final match Reports -- they are AWFUL and mimic the worst Football pundits and press in the world).

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Is there any part of the game you actually engage in? Tactics it apparently isn't much, man management you never enjoyed statistical or match Analysis... That's not meant to be a jab, but: how do you ever figure out if you played well or if you didn't? Or what is actually going on? (Hopefully not based on FM's final match Reports -- they are AWFUL and mimic the worst Football pundits and press in the world).

The parts of the game I actually enjoy are team selection, scouting, and watching the actual matches and making in-game substitutions/adjustments. I used to figure I was doing a good job if the tactics analysis screen showed I was creating many more chances than my opponents, but honestly in this ME chance creation seems extremely divorced from actual results. I think part of this stems from the aforementioned difficulty of strikers scoring more straightforward chances. More goals seem to come from flukey and/or spectacular plays than chance creation. For instance, I just won a Merseyside derby 3-1 and even though Liverpool created twice as many chances as I did, I won by multiple goals and the game basically treated the game as though I won comfortably.

ok, so how exactly did you handle the build up to the match vs West Ham (and the match itself) and thus deal with all of these "unseen bonuses"?

- What did you say in your pre-match press conference?

- What did you tell your players in your tactical briefing?

- What tactical changes (if any) did you make from your previous match?

- What rotation of players did you use?

- What were the Dynamics/happiness of your players like?

- What did you say in the tunnel interview?

- What did you tell your players in your pre-match talk? How did they react?

- What did you tell your players at half time? How did they react?

- What was their body language like during the match?

- What was West Ham's body language like during the match?

- What tactical changes did you make during the match and why? Or did you just carry on regardless (assuming you actually watched the match)?

- What substitutions did you make and why?

So, you mention unseen bonuses, how did you use them to your advantage?

Further - regardless of West Ham's league position they are a decent side, expected to be top half of the table. A supposed lack of morale at West Ham doesn't turn their good players into bad players, they can still be a match for anyone on their day (as you found out). And even with a lack of morale, their manager can still get them fired up for the match: "you're bottom of the league, get out there and show them what you're really like" kind of thing.

TL;DR - if you just lost 4-3 at home to the bottom club there should be a lot of learning points you can take from that so you don't repeat your mistakes next time . It's 100% within your control.

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I think part of this stems from the aforementioned difficulty of strikers scoring more straightforward chances. More goals seem to come from flukey and/or spectacular plays than chance creation.

Considering the increase off Goals from set pieces / ranged attempts compared to Prior versions, there could be some truth to that. As for the chances created stat, it's just not particularly useful. It's never been. If kept it should be replaced by something else, as it's disconnected from what the game actually calculates. As said, "headers" are never counted a Chance. Not only isn't that in line with any Opta data etc. models (it surely depends on the Header?) -- it also doesn't matter how likely that Header is to be a Goal in the engine.

That said, IIRC you have a history of puzzlements here. Given your outlook on Football and your way too simplistic Outlook on the game (it's all mainly morale etc.), that's no much surprise to me. In a sense, the game were better off coding more challenging AI, so that you would be forced to challenge your (false) impressions -- as well as utilize all the Tools at your disposal to get results rather than narrowing things down to morale and different feedback, some of which outside of your control. After all, Prior you were barely ever sacked ONCE (whilst the AI is accross the board), and so may have developed a super low tolerance to when you are in a slump yourself. (Personally, if the game, any game, couldN't simulate a struggle, I'd never Play it ever). However, the same Thing, improved AI that systematically exploits your simplistic Outlook, may put you off playing, so SI are not gonna do this. In a sense the AI has an "Edge" already anyway, as it only cares About one stat and one stat only -- which is the Goals (or rather, any current scoreline during a match)

About the Topic of randomness, given this is football and most football Matches are close Affairs that could go either way most of the time -- still a good read. FM's Player base will Always be divided on the Topic, as they all see it a bit differently. Plus the possible Impact of randomness is rarely prominently brought up in (punditry) Analysis, as it wouldn't make for a very good Story. However, given that we have playerse on These boards who killed "bad luck" almost entirelly depending on the release (going hundreds of Matches unbeaten), they may see this a Little differently.

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1) I'm only 50% of the equation, there's also the opposition manager giving his own team talks, press conferences, man management, etc.

2) There are other factors (home/away, consistency, etc.) that are not under the control of either manager.

3) The ME by its very nature has a high degree of randomness even given 100% identical start-of-match inputs.

1) You can do a lot with your 50%, your problem is that your simplistic view of the game (as Svenc puts it, and I agree with him) severely hampers your ability make the most of it, this bad management on your part

2) again these are factors you can use and influence, but if you take a simplistic view, you will struggle

3) you can influence that randomness, its essentially what the best managers (in game and in real life do)

Herne has already asked you all the pertinent question (which you seem to skip past) but ultimatelu, you need to have a far less narrow view, something which has been said to you for a number of years now, and take more responsibility, otherwise you'll continue to repeat the same frustrations every version. I'd be very interested in seeing how you approach a game in detail, from build up to post match breakdown

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Herne has already asked you all the pertinent question (which you seem to skip past) but ultimatelu, you need to have a far less narrow view, something which has been said to you for a number of years now, and take more responsibility, otherwise you'll continue to repeat the same frustrations every version. I'd be very interested in seeing how you approach a game in detail, from build up to post match breakdown

Of course I didn't actually bother to answer all 12 of his questions. I don't remember the answers to most of them pertaining to this particular match and it's not like it's worth anyone's time for me to go back and try to find all the answers. Especially when I could replay the match with all the same choices and I'd probably have at least a 50% chance of winning. The methods I use for tactics, man management, etc, are the same methods I've used over the last 8-9 years of FM and that have generally brought me success. Not immediate "win everything first season" success, but slow, gradual success over many seasons.

Ultimately this may not matter much as this will be the last FM I play for a long time, possibly ever. It feels like it's become a 2nd job and that I'm sacrificing way too many other rewarding gaming experiences to pump 500+ hours into FM season after season. So just wait a month or two and you won't have to deal with my BS ever again.