The problem with E4E is that it's so fight-specific. Just running through my last ICC log, here's the DPS I'd put out with 2/2 E4E:

Marrowgar: 139486 Coldflame damage taken in 2:06, for a potential DPS return of 133 DPS (provided it works on Coldflame)LDW: 588046 shadow damage from a variety of sources in 5:06, 231 DPSGunship: Not really applicableDBS: No magic damage takenRotface: 54019 damage taken due to Slime Spray in 2:48, 39 DPS. Ignoring oozes here since damage on them is irrelevant given that Judging from 30 yards on cooldown is more than enough to keep aggro.Fester: 207030 Gaseous Blight damage in 3:12, and another 150k in Bloat/Blight damage. 129 or 223 DPS depending on whether B/B is included.PP: 52k damage from ooze/gas in 5:26, 19 DPS.Taldaram: 28k damage from flare/vortex in 3:25, 16 DPS - could be interesting if it worked on Shadow Lance though (I was tanking Keleseth), that would be 438 DPS.BQL: The list you gave doesn't list Shroud of Sorrow; without that it's essentially 0 DPS, if it worked on SoS it would be around 150 DPS

I don't have a sindragosa or LK parse for this week, but given the information you posted I suspect it would be worthless on Sindragosa and strong on LK.

So the value varies significantly from fight to fight; it can be as low as 0 DPS, or as high as ~100 DPS per point. On the other hand, Crusade gives a consistent boost of around ~100 DPS per point.

I could perhaps see an argument for picking up E4E instead of JotP for a threat-heavy build, and maybe as an alternative to Improved Judgement if the extra range doesn't appeal to you. But I'd certainly not peg it as a mandatory talent.

I was tanking sindragosa hc 25 today, and I can say, for hardmodes like that, a well timed WoG can safe your life, more then once. With Protector if the innocent it's even interesting to use a 1 or 2 point WoG, since you get the 4K extra nontheless. Eternal glory sometimes lets you heal 2 or 3 times in a row, certainly handy. In cata we can also spec for the talent wich basicly gives you 60% extra crit when using WoG on low health.

I used the current WoG build with one point less in Shield of the templar, wich I put in Gcr for some utility. But this option was mentioned earlier in this guide. I swaped the hotr/judgement glyph slot for WoG as well, since it's rated pretty low on threat. So I used SoT, Sotr, and WoG.

The way I see it, these mechanics are going to be pretty important in cata hard modes. And if threat is as little a problem as it is now, I would gladly spec/glyph into those things.

If you take a look at the current threat talents, we basicly we 3 good ones, 1 utility one ( Gcr ) and some bad ones. If you look at stats hit and expertise are rated off the charts, and we can reforge them to desired numbers. Now personally I would much rather run with a full utility/healing spec, and reforge some avoidance into hit/expertise, then specing for some bad threat talents and then gearing for some avoidance.

For me personally the priorities always where health/armor/healing/utility, then threat, and then avoidance. I completely respect ppl who put threat last. But I am always puzzled by ppl who buy threat in any other place then by sacrificing avoidance, since In my opinion, that's the only place to buy it.

This is for hard modes progression obviously. It's partially speculation, and my flavour ofc. But I wanted to share my idea.

EDIT:

A different subject: In my opinion you should raise the status of the Divinity glyph to optional. If you have consecration and focused shield, and there is nothing to stun, it's a good glyph to help healers who are still learning to manage their mana . 4K mana is pretty good.

I agree with your assessment theck. I had it to use on HLK, and I ended up ret because of roster issues, but I think it would be okay there. One other note though - that quote in my previous post was from a ret's pov, so his sindragosa comment probably doesn't take into account tank damage (breaths).

Either way, after leveling an alt prot on another server to run dungeons with a friend, I think eternal glory is just about the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and probably as good a place for points as any. That's not from a threat pov, I just love it.

pfunkmort wrote:I agree with your assessment theck. I had it to use on HLK, and I ended up ret because of roster issues, but I think it would be okay there. One other note though - that quote in my previous post was from a ret's pov, so his sindragosa comment probably doesn't take into account tank damage (breaths).

Either way, after leveling an alt prot on another server to run dungeons with a friend, I think eternal glory is just about the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and probably as good a place for points as any. That's not from a threat pov, I just love it.

I agree! Eternal Glory is one of the most fun talents I have ever had in this game. There is nothing like seeing it proc four times in a row on Sindragosa while one of your Holy paladins is tombed and the other Holy paladin has Unchained Magic and just being like "DON'T WORRY GUYS I'VE GOT THIS."

People who think WoG is worthless just aren't using it right. Maybe they forget about the protective shield... maybe they aren't doing hard enough content where healer throughput actually gets compromised. I've used WoG on shamblers to survive an Enraged hit with an absorb shield. I've used it on Sindragosa to negate much of the Frost Breath damage in the last phase. My healers in the shadow realm on Halion kept asking "Why aren't you spiking at all?" because I was absorbing the dragon's breaths with WoGs.

It is just so much fun and takes real timing and skill to use. As long as they keep us so far ahead on threat relative to DPS, we'll have ample opportunity to use it on progression fights.

IME the WoG shield is the only part worth mentioning, and its hardly big enough where I'd tell my healers to chill while I negate a tiny chunk of incoming from a heroic boss. What content are you tanking?

Yes its better than not having the shield, No its not that awesome.

If you're trading a 3 HoPo shield slam crit for something, you should be rewarded for the trade-off in threat with something good, not mediocre.

IE, the other day I offtanked HSindy25, so I just spent the entire ground phase healing the MT and managed to do 128k healing the whole fight. Hardly OP.

Were this the pre-patch wow, before our incoming damage went through the roof, the self-shield would have been more impressive. Now that ICC is much harder, the shield amount is not enough. It'd be nice if PotI heals dropped BEFORE the WoG heal and shield as well.

Having said that ICC and Halion seem to have been nerfed so maybe it will be enough.

is there a way to track the amount of the guarded by the light shield, and how much of it actually absorbs before the 6 seconds fall off? i cant seem to find it on WOL or on recount. i see overheal, but i want to see how much of that actually gets put to use

WoG is really not mediocre if you time it right. This is not something designed to help with healer mana or with overall healing done. It's an emergency button, just like a minor cooldown, or a trinket.

Ofc it's nice to use the absorb if you have a period of heavy damage. But for a predictable spike it could be better to use it afterwards, otherwise it doesn't use the PotI proc. Especially on 85, where we can spec into crit chance for WoG on low health. For now it's only interesting to use the absorb in that case, if you're EH is either just too low, or if you are going to build more holypower in those 6 seconds before the big damage spike, and use another heal after it.

If you look at emergency situations on low health, a 9-13K heal is really not mediocre. That's all extra health you have there. That's bigger then most trinkets, and on a ridiculously low cooldown.

With AD gone we no longer have the luxery of sitting on low health and not responding to it. It's just far too dangerous. And you cannot always use all your CD's on that. In 3.3 my AD used to proc all the time, but I rarely died. Our dk always made fun of it, coz he died a lot less, then my AD proced, because he knows when to time his heals, and CD's, he's just never on low health to begin with. Now WoG gives us a minor version of this, and if you use it right, it gives us a little taste of that power.

My advice is spec into it, get a healthbar in the middle of your screen, and test it out. Maybe you will like it, maybe it's not for you. But don't just sit there thinking it's bad for your threat etc, without trying it out. Because threat is hardly an issue in the situations where you would use this.

Besides, like I mentioned before. If you need threat just reforge some avoidance into expertise. That's most likely cheaper then specing into bad threat talents, and glyphing into bad threat glyphs. Plus it's just a more interesting way to buy it.

Only problem I have with it so far is, if you spec all the way, you will lose PoJ. Painfull. That's a personal choice, but I think with a boot enchant the pain will be less.

Last edited by Awyndel on Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well it's just one of those utility things that you have to try out to see it's use. It's mostly used to make the pull easier, and to pick up mobs a lot easier. It's an extra ranged spell. It makes kiting super easy. It's certainly not usefull on every fight, but it should probably be included into allround specs.

Remember you don't really need to give up reckoning or DG for it. Those are just too good. Normally you give up SotP, JotP, or crusade. Crusade rates a bit higher but neither of them are very impressive talents at the moment.

Theckhd, don't forget to update this based on your latest matlab results. Especially the glyph of hotr, which seems to have gone from recommended to worthless (and crusader strike glyph now being elevated in its place).

econ21 wrote:Theckhd, don't forget to update this based on your latest matlab results. Especially the glyph of hotr, which seems to have gone from recommended to worthless (and crusader strike glyph now being elevated in its place).

Metherlance wrote:The changes are already in the graphs. And in the conclusion.

Are you confusing this thread with the matlab one? Because the third post in this thread does not seem to have the changes (or a graph), viz.

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous (Threat, Recommended/Situational) - This glyph is actually quite potent, and turns out to be our best AoE tanking glyph. If you're in need of an AoE threat boost, this is definitely one place to get it. It clocks in at around 100 DPS per target, or 115 DPS for a single target.

Change needed: Glyph of Divinity provides the paladin with 10% mana since LoH mana is gone .: it's only useful if your oom while oohp or something (ie tell the druid get glyph of rebirth so you have hp at least)

Neptuno wrote:Change needed: Glyph of Divinity provides the paladin with 10% mana since LoH mana is gone .: it's only useful if your oom while oohp or something (ie tell the druid get glyph of rebirth so you have hp at least)

Neptuno wrote:Change needed: Glyph of Divinity provides the paladin with 10% mana since LoH mana is gone .: it's only useful if your oom while oohp or something (ie tell the druid get glyph of rebirth so you have hp at least)

The more I read about WoG and WoG builds the better they seem. For progression in Cata I personally can't see myself using a non WoG build. If I went dual prot would most likely take WoG and Heavy Threat build.

"Default" spec doesn't strike me as being default more like "Generic" or "Standard". To me the default progression spec is the WoG build.

Edit - I want dual specs not a spec for dueling.

Last edited by lythac on Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

I've been using a WoG build for about a week, it's pretty impressive. I'd have to agree with you that it's the clear choice for progression right now. It's also great for soloing stuff.

That said, this talent/glyph guide is designed for a pretty broad audience, not just people working on heroic LK. If it's a useful resource for the top end anyhow, that's great. But the target audience for the builds section of the guide is the player who hasn't kept up with beta or PTR notes, or is returning to the game from an absence. That's the type of player that logs in and says, "Zomg, how do I spec now?" And risking gross generalization here, that player is likely to be primarily working on heroic dungeons and normal-mode raids or pugs. They might still be learning the rotation as well, which makes threat a significant concern. And our survivability is quite good even without a WoG build.

Players who are pushing content where a WoG build really pays off are much more likely to be informed. They might take a look at the build section to see which threat talents are optimal to drop for a WoG build, but they'll already know about the build and won't just copy a "default" build.

I'm not opposed to making revisions though. Do you think that instead of one "default" build, I should give a more complete description of each build and what sort of content it's tailored to? Basically, "Here are 4 different builds designed for different content," and then a description under each build that reads something like, "The WoG build is probably going to be the choice for most progression content, as it maxes out survivability in an environment where threat really isn't a concern."

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous (Threat, Not Recommended) - This glyph doesn't currently affect the AoE portion of HotR, making it an exceptionally poor glyph. If they ever fix that, it'll be a great AoE glyph; until then, it's complete crap.