Project Ubers 2.0

With Skill Swap:
1.If they lead of with their bouncer:
Skill swaps and gets up at least one layer

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What if Espeon Baton Passes (likely) or Xatu U-turns (less likely but still a possibility)?

2.If they lead with something else:
Skill swap on the switch and get up at least one layer

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And what if the opponent leads with something like Arceus or Giratina-O that puts you in immediate danger of losing Deoxys-S, without getting any hazards at all, if you Skill Swap at that moment?

With Dark Pulse:

1.Dark pulse twice, sash broken you might not even get one layer up.

2.Dark pulse on the switch and get up at least one layer. (if they not has Sdef Xatu lol)

What Im saying is that if you really need to get up hazards Skill Swap guarantees that 100% (ok not against scarf Darkrai), you cant argue that.

Im not saying people uses Sdef Xatu, but I think you at least have to consider all possibilities.

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Sure, you have to consider all possibilities, but you also have to consider practicality and relevancy. You're using one moveset (which is highly contested on Deoxys-S might I add) to deal with one relevant threat and one barely considerable threat, both of whom could just as easily be handled by slapping a Tyranitar on your team. Dark Pulse might not be as effective as Skill Swap against those threat, but it is far more effective against other, more relevant threats.

Also, even if Dark Pulse might be more useful in general this is still a thread for unorthodox movesets right?

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This is not just a thread for unorthodox movesets; it's also for established and/or underrated sets. Reread the OP or the parts that Faint quoted. Furthermore it is for effective sets. Unorthodoxy by itself is not enough justification. The sets have to be effective and worth running. You're entitled to your opinion on what you feel is worth running, but speaking in terms of an analysis, Skill Swap would be found in Other Options at best.

Pragmatically, yes, Genesect is unlikely to U-turn, but it is still a possible scenario and definitely worst-case scenario. That possibility is made even more unpleasant (and more likely) if the opponent is packing a spinner, since Deoxys-S will be forced out to a spinblocker, or, even worse, will lose all of its hazards to Rapid Spin and be killed if it stayed in.

To add to this, in order to run both Skill Swap and Fire Punch, you're either giving up Stealth Rock (and neutering Deoxys-S's biggest niche) or leaving yourself completely at the mercy of opposing Deoxys-S.

Sure, you have to consider all possibilities, but you also have to consider practicality and relevancy. You're using one moveset (which is highly contested on Deoxys-S might I add) to deal with one relevant threat and one barely considerable threat, both of whom could just as easily be handled by slapping a Tyranitar on your team. Dark Pulse might not be as effective as Skill Swap against those threat, but it is far more effective against other, more relevant threats.

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Can you please tell me which threts you would Dark Pulse insted of getting a extra hazard up?

This is not just a thread for unorthodox movesets; it's also for established and/or underrated sets. Reread the OP or the parts that Faint quoted. Furthermore it is for effective sets. Unorthodoxy by itself is not enough justification. The sets have to be effective and worth running. You're entitled to your opinion on what you feel is worth running, but speaking in terms of an analysis, Skill Swap would be found in Other Options at best.

Pragmatically, yes, Genesect is unlikely to U-turn, but it is still a possible scenario and definitely worst-case scenario. That possibility is made even more unpleasant (and more likely) if the opponent is packing a spinner, since Deoxys-S will be forced out to a spinblocker, or, even worse, will lose all of its hazards to Rapid Spin and be killed if it stayed in.

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You will just Fire Punch the Genesect an OHKO it, then youre in a 6-5 with the sash still intact, U-turn is not the worst-case scenario, its the best-case scenario.

To add to this, in order to run both Skill Swap and Fire Punch, you're either giving up Stealth Rock (and neutering Deoxys-S's biggest niche) or leaving yourself completely at the mercy of opposing Deoxys-S.

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Thats the only thing Dark Pulse has going for itself, even though I dont like the possible scenario of being taunted and your oponent having hazards up.

And Xatu will stay in and set up screens, as you cant outdamage it with darkpulse there no reason to U-turn (if they do they probably predicting Skill Swap)

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Nobody is going to predict a Skill Swap. They would U-turn expecting Deoxys-S to switch if it was unable to do anything to Xatu (perhaps if they valued their own hazards more than screens that early in the game), and if it stays in then Xatu still kept hazards off while also breaking Deoxys-S sash and possibly getting a priority user in.

Thats true for Darkpulse as well, only differnce being you gets a whopping 11-13% on Arceus

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I was not saying you should keep Deoxys-S in in that scenario. I was trying to explain that it's a bad idea to blindly Skill Swap against anything remotely threatening in the hopes of catching Xatu.

Can you please tell me which threts you would Dark Pulse insted of getting a extra hazard up?

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Deoxys-A and opposing Deoxys-S.

You will just Fire Punch the Genesect an OHKO it, then youre in a 6-5 with the sash still intact, U-turn is not the worst-case scenario, its the best-case scenario.

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I should have clarified that U-turn is the worst-case scenario if you Skill Swap. My apologies.

They would U-turn expecting Deoxys-S to switch if it was unable to do anything to Xatu (perhaps if they valued their own hazards more than screens that early in the game), and if it stays in then Xatu still kept hazards off while also breaking Deoxys-S sash and possibly getting a priority user in.

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I doubt that they would switch out when they got xatu in for free,(Deoxys-S is set up bait for Xatu) something you wont do easy against a hyper offensive team. Also only 1/4 of the Xatus is packing U-turn. Even if they do the very unlikely move and U-tuns out its essentially no difference if youre using Dark Pulse, sure you will get of some extra damage on their Xatu but thats not that important imo.

I was not saying you should keep Deoxys-S in in that scenario. I was trying to explain that it's a bad idea to blindly Skill Swap against anything remotely threatening in the hopes of catching Xatu.

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ofc it is(against priority), but its just as bad of an idea to Dark Pulse, and if they using a Magic Bouncer chances are that they uses it to stop hazards, on a hazard week team. They should not even risk you getting up hazards.

Deoxys-A leads generally caries focus sash which means that theres no reason to use Dark Pulse over Fire Punch. Against Deoxys-S might be the one situation that Dark Pulse would be useful as it 2HKO:s. But personally i dont think its optimal, if they uses taunt I would rather use magic coat and if they attacks I would rather use hazards, if they uses hazard I would obviously prefer Magic Coat but hazards is also ok(better then Dark Pulse imo) But I will admit that in that case Dark Pulse would be more useful as its a safe move even if it isnt optimal in any scenario, generally I still prefers Skill Swap.

Deoxys-A leads generally caries focus sash which means that theres no reason to use Dark Pulse over Fire Punch. Against Deoxys-S might be the one situation that Dark Pulse would be useful as it 2HKO:s. But personally i dont think its optimal, if they uses taunt I would rather use magic coat and if they attacks I would rather use hazards, if they uses hazard I would obviously prefer Magic Coat but hazards is also ok(better then Dark Pulse imo) But I will admit that in that case Dark Pulse would be more useful as its a safe move even if it isnt optimal in any scenario, generally I still prefers Skill Swap.

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How is dark pulse not optimal? Skill swap is completely useless if your opponent does not have an xatu / espeon. I think it's safe to say that both of these pokemon are not very common in the metagame. If you ask me, I'd rather have another coverage such as fire punch / superpower over skill swap really. On the other hand, even with dark pulse you can still 2hoko xatu / espeon on the switch in, and as tobes said, you can also get coverage against opposing deo-s / deo-a. Most deo-s are going to either 1.] taunt / magic coat you or 2.] use shadow ball or dark pulse for the same reason you're using it.

I think were also forgetting here that dark pulse also has a 20% chance to flinch, which can be pretty huge if you manage to win the speed tie and flinch the the opposing deo-s, preventing them from doing anything. Deo-a is just going to ex speed you if it has it, otherwise the same thing can happen except now you don't have to worry about winning the speed tie. Now, if your opponent does indeed have a magic bounce user and you predict it correctly, then of course it's amazing and defiantly better than dark pulse. But unless magic coat users suddenly shoot up in popularity, 99% of the time you'd want an alternative coverage move so that you can hit more metagame relevant threats.

Skill swap is not completely useless if they don't have a magic bouncer. Just set up hazards. That's what Deoxys-S is there for anyway. You miss out on taunt but opponents should try to kill Deoxys quickly because if you are playing HO with a team not weak to hazards then you generally don't care if they set up Stealth Rock against you. It just means two layers of spikes since they elect to not break you sash. Using this Deoxys means you are using Giratina-O on your team. Shadow sneak other Deoxys leads for the 2HKO. Even if you have taunt or magic coat you would put yourself in a situation completely based on luck in mirror lead match up. And that is not a way to win consistently.

I agree that dark pulse is usable but if your opponent has a priority user paired with his magic bouncer then you might get more hazards up with skill swap.

Example with dark pulse: Xatu/Esp gets in and you dark pulse for the 2HKO. E-killer and Giratina-O comes in and takes you out with only SR down. Maybe with proper double switching against Giratina-O, will you be able to get that second layer later.

With skill swap: Magic bouncer comes in, skill swap them and get SR up as they switch to Gira-O or E-killer or whatever to take you out. Should they not switch in their magic bouncer again, you get a layer of spikes as well. It is a bit down to prediction actually, they might try to switch in their magic bouncer again.

Both moves have their merits in a way, but 99% of the time, you will just lay hazards anyway.

Yes Skill Swap is indeed a useless move if my opponent doesnt have a Magic Bouncer. But if your goal only is to get up hazards, at least on layer every time, not to deny your opponents, Skill Swap gives you the best chance of doing that.

As my goal isnt to deny hazards I would probably not even use Dark Pulse for other Deoxys (if I used it) and instead trying to get up hazards of my own. If I had Dark Pulse I would only use it agains Magic Bouncer, and in that apartment Skill Swap does better.

Honestly, this set isn't going to work at all. Using Espeon as Xatu is used puts you at a disadvantage. Why Xatu can go bulky is because it can almost indefinitely stall out support Groudon. It also has reliable recovery. Espeon should carry focus sash in my opinion, I'm not posting a set to contribute to this thread but rather to show what Espeon should be played like, which is of course and offensive mon as part of an offensive team. That way you can use the qualities of magic bounce. The set:

Espeon is not supposed to come in time after time to block entry hazards. With the right team support, SR setters and spikers get under enormous pressure, and they won't be able to get a chance more than once or twice, which makes Espeon just able to do its work.

Arceus-Ground is known for its ability to run a fierce Swords Dance set, but it just keeps on getting annoyed of those Kyurem-W's and Kyogres that come in to revenge it. Well not anymore! Substitute turn 1 and suddenly you get to bust a giant hole in the enemy's revenge killer before going down. Substitute also allows Ground Arceus to wall enemy Giratina-a lacking Roar, as WoW can't go through Substitute and Dragon Tail is too weak to break through. Your probably wondering, well you can do that with ExtremeSpeed too right? Well you can but with Substitute you also prevent status. That and non-STAB ExtremeSpeed is WEAK. Its not that difficult at all getting both a Substitute and a Swords Dance up infront of something like a Dialga or Forretress (well actually you wall him to death, and they like to try to Toxic you too lol) either, and Ground Arceus does this better then most Arceus forms as its one of the only three that get access to STAB and a move that couples its coverage to perfect it. Arceus Ghost and Arceus Rock can't do Substitute + SD nearly as well. Arceus Ghost can't hit Forretress hard, Shadow Claw is weaker, and since its a spin blocker people generally like the added longevity (Sub CM is a different case though). Arceus Rock's massive bulk in Sandstorm is cut without Recover, and that IS half the reason why people use Arceus Rock anyway.

Espeon is not supposed to come in time after time to block entry hazards. With the right team support, SR setters and spikers get under enormous pressure, and they won't be able to get a chance more than once or twice, which makes Espeon just able to do its work.

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Its an interesting set to say the least, but how does it pressure lead Dialga and Tyranitar? I'm pretty sure they both live HP Fighting, and they're not too far from common either. Granted you could try alleviating this with Groudon though, but I don't know. I know most Spikers are threatened but I do know that they can 2HKO you with Gyro Ball / Payback / Power Whip if they predict right.

It's true what you say mr. Lol. Support Dialga and TTar are two threats Espeon's teammates will have to deal with it, support Dialga is especially hard to stop. Espeon can't be thrown into any team because it needs teammates to directly threaten spikers and SR setters, because it won't be able to stop hazards on its own.

But, really, it doesn't come down to that much prediction as you may think. How many times do you get to set up SR with a pokemon that has no reliable recovery? Maybe once or twice against the offensive pressure you are facing when playing a team with Espeon. Hidden power fighting puts Dialga in KO range of many things, Draco Meteor from specs, Kyurem, and scarf Resh's Blue Flare. Usually you want to use Espeon on a sun team, simply because they can threaten Ferrothorn among other important slow spikers way better than rain teams. Rain+Espeon is ok, but you have to resort to way fewer ways to OHKO Ferrothorn and Dialga (LO Terrak, Specs Kyurem-W are alternatives, but list isn't too long).

This is the Sun utility set on the OU analysis and it function just as well in Uber. Basically, put this in a sun offensive team, sleep something early game with sleep powder, or punch a little bit with leaf storm. Later in the game, as your other monster is running low on hp and/or is crippled with status, you come in, healing wish and allow said monster to go on business again. This guy is the fastest healing wish user in sun and it is difficult to stop it to do her work. A timid nature and max speed ev are chosen so as to allow her to outspeed as much as possible outside of sun, especially when her primarily job is not to attack and has little bulk by uber standard. But you can still use modest if you feel like. The last moveslot is up to you, a HP of choice allow you to kill/revenge kill appropriate targets, a support move like stun spore (to cripple more), or leech seed (to force switches and recovery) can also be used.

I've added everything but Skill Swap Deoxys-S and Choice Band Lucario. CB Lucario is simply outclassed by Terrakion, and Skill Swap Deoxys-S has been argued above and was proven to be too situational, making it very often useless.

Honestly, this set isn't going to work at all. Using Espeon as Xatu is used puts you at a disadvantage. Why Xatu can go bulky is because it can almost indefinitely stall out support Groudon. It also has reliable recovery. Espeon should carry focus sash in my opinion, I'm not posting a set to contribute to this thread but rather to show what Espeon should be played like, which is of course and offensive mon as part of an offensive team. That way you can use the qualities of magic bounce. The set:

Espeon is not supposed to come in time after time to block entry hazards. With the right team support, SR setters and spikers get under enormous pressure, and they won't be able to get a chance more than once or twice, which makes Espeon just able to do its work.

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hmmm... reflect + morning sun seems to stall groudon nicely. Espeon's defensive stats match xatu's if not better, it is faster, which allows it to lightscreen/reflect base 90s and 100s before they attacker her, unlike xatu. Furthermore, espeon has access to wish and heal bell, providing a layer of utility that xatu lacks. Therefore, espeon clearly has a niche that xatu lacks as a screener.

You are forgetting some important facts. Espeon is less physically bulky compared to Xatu, and Xatu has an immunity to Groudons strongest move. Where are your calcs about Espeon stalling Groudon nicely?

You can't morning sun reliably and you can't reflect, Groudon will KO if you come in on Earthquake (which is usually the case). If you decide to go impish max defense you are still less bulky than Xatu in the physcial department minus the eq resist as well. You also miss out on the speed, which you mentioned as a quality over Xatu. It is simply outclassed as a screener. Don't use it as you do in OU. Espeon has offensive qualities, like the 2HKO it gets with grass knot on Groudon, hurting Dialga (getting it in range for other attacks to kill it, therfore fullfilling its job of keeping SR away) a bit, not letting Ho-oh sub (thanks to psyshock) and stopping all set-up sweepers if its sash is intact.

Wish? You are never going to pull that off. And if you use a moveslot for that, you will be forced to 1) run morning sun, and therfore using up 2 moveslots on healing moves 2) protect to make wish reliable. Neither of these options are good, because if you add screens as well you are set up fodder for Ho-oh and E-killer for example.

Heal bell doesn't give it a niche either, just because it can cure others of status doesn't mean it's worth it. Most often, it must pay with its life to heal bell.

I posted a Relicanth set over in the Rain Offense thread that may be of interest here, since Relicanth is very rare in Ubers. I've done the math for most Ubers threats, and I spent much of the past few days testing it out on various rain teams.

To sate the OP's recommendation to state why the Pokemon is rare: People are terrified of Relicanth's fragility. Not only can a quick (or even mediocre) special (or any grass) attack wreck his normal Rock Head sets, he's too slow to hit much even with no recoil Head Smash. Instead, this set lets Relicanth die in a blaze of glory, easily slaying two or three enemies, barring a few hard counters. (Ferrothorn is a big one.) The recoil is huge, but trading one Pokemon for several foes is never a bad trade. I think this set has the potential to function as a more effective CB Kabutops, as it deals more damage while making use of Relicanth's stellar 130 base Defense to counter Extreme Killer Arceus even after Swords Dance.

(EKA can boost up on turn one against one of your Pokemon. On turn two, you realize your mistake and switch to Relicanth, who tanks the incoming ExtremeSpeed like a champ. On turn three, youcan tank a second boosted ExtremeSpeed while returning fire with a OHKO Head Smash. In this circumstance, Relicanth would die. But if you had switched earlier to save Relicanth that extra ~35% HP, you would remain alive and fast enough to kill the next Pokemon, so long as it doesn't have Prankster or priority. (Unless it's Deoxys-S, who will fuck up Relicanth with special moves if it carries them.)

I think this set has the potential to function as a more effective CB Kabutops, as it deals more damage while making use of Relicanth's stellar 130 base Defense to counter Extreme Killer Arceus even after Swords Dance.

(EKA can boost up on turn one against one of your Pokemon. On turn two, you realize your mistake and switch to Relicanth, who tanks the incoming ExtremeSpeed like a champ. On turn three, youcan tank a second boosted ExtremeSpeed while returning fire with a OHKO Head Smash. In this circumstance, Relicanth would die. But if you had switched earlier to save Relicanth that extra ~35% HP, you would remain alive and fast enough to kill the next Pokemon, so long as it doesn't have Prankster or priority. (Unless it's Deoxys-S, who will fuck up Relicanth with special moves if it carries them.)

Ah, right you are. I'm not sure where that came from, but my calculations read as 70.34 - 82.93%. Not a OHKO without massive hazard damage to Arceus, regardless. The real benefit would be as a revenge killer, then, since Relicanth can outrun all of Arceus' moves in rain except ExtremeSpeed. (Which as stated doesn't usually deal enough damage.)

CB Lucario is simply outclassed by Terrakion, and Skill Swap Deoxys-S has been argued above and was proven to be too situational, making it very often useless.

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CB Lucario being outclassed by Terrakion is highly subjective. While Terrakion has higher Attack and Speed, Lucario has a way to hit Giratina hard with Crunch, priority in two forms, and a much better typing. The two preform similar roles, but being outclassed is a whole different matter; CB Terrakion vs CB Lucario is a matter of preference, not inferiority. I've used it in the past many times, and it has never been an inferior Terrakion.

You can argue Stone Edge's accuracy of course, but neither can comfortably beat Giratina. Meanwhile Crunch is a terrible move for Lucario to be locked into, while Terrakion still has enough firepower with Stone Edge to deter most threats from trying to set up on it. The second form of priority isn't all that relevant either; usually ExtremeSpeed is going to be the only one that you get any heavy mileage out of, and all things considered I don't think it's nearly enough of a factor to give CB Lucario any legitimacy over Terrakion's power, speed, and secondary STAB. Having Steel-typing for sponging relatively weak Dragon-type attacks (and being to switch into Ferrothorn relatively safely) is a bit of a plus, but Lucario isn't exactly a pinnacle of defense.

is op. The idea is, with giga drain, one is able to have a mix of sustain as well as damage. It pairs nicely with substitute, allowing ludicolo to predict switches and still maintain its hp. Giga drain still is effective in 2HKOing kyogre while maintaining its sustain. While the standard life orb set its admittedly very strong, I believe this has a strong niche. Hydro pump is needed over surf to secure kos with leftovers

This is just you're average, every day Special Attacking Skymin... but with one big twist: Healing Wish. I know this is given a short mention in other options onsite, and it can be a bit situational... but oooh boy, when you find the situation to use it, it can be a total shocker that can win you the match! The idea here is that you use Skymin on a very offensive sort of team, since not only does Skymin have plenty of its own fire power, it also doesn't really last too long on these type of teams, and that speed makes it one of the best Healing Wish users out there! When Skymin is gonna die from SR or you just think it isn't going to be useful anymore, you use Healing Wish on scary sweepers like Mewtwo, Rayquaza, or Arceus. While they will still take hazards damage, Healing Wish doesn't actually switch your target in until the end of the turn, which means these dangerous Pokemon ALSO get a free switch-in! While it's more situational than say... HP Ice / Fire or Growth, I found that the pay off was usually FAR bigger than any of LO Skymin's other moves, and lets face it, without spin support, its not like LO Skymin usually lasts long anyways lol.

Passer set. The Unburden boost isn't technically passable, but it lets Drifty pass earlier. Unfortunately, despite its high HP, Drifty is really frail, so a high amount of prediction is required to let it switch in safely. The choice of Magic Coat vs. Ominous Wind is risk vs. reward. Ominous Wind is there only really to activate the GGem, and to prevent being Taunted. Taunt, however, can be reflected with Magic Coat, along with letting you get the edge on certain opponents (Dark Void Darkrai is put to sleep, Ferro and Forre are destroyed). Stockpile is really just there if you really, really need a CosmicPasser for some reason.

A Physically offensive Deo-A may sound absurd at first, but the boost to its Attack stat allows its Superpower and ExtremeSpeed to become much stronger. For example, 184 Lonely boosted Life Orb Superpower OHKOes 252 HP support Dialga 81.25% of the time, whereas no investment Superpower completely misses out on the same KO. ExtremeSpeed also gets a power boost, now 2HKOing no investment Palkia and generally making Choice Scarfed mons a lesser issue. A Rash nature is recommended if your going to go and use the 184 Atk spread, since it powers up Psycho Boost to the point where its stronger then a naive one (and you get to 2HKO Great Wall Giratina-a with Ice Beam + Psycho Boost), but if your going 252 Attack its better to go Lonely and use Ice Punch since the move now OHKOes 252 HP Latias after SR (those with less HP investment don't need the SR). Give it a try :P.

This set also should be primarily credited to Theorymon, since I think he came up with the rash + 184 Atk set before everyone else.

This standard Palkia set with a twist, has proven to be pretty effective to me. Palkia lures in many forms of CM Arceus as they think it's easy set up.This set looks to surprise Arceus in those situations and hit them with Twave. Once paralyzed,CM Arceus froms become much easier to deal with.This set usefulness isn't restricted to that,it can also use Twave to cripple several faster threats often times by faking scarf,such as Latios,Latias,Mewtwo etc.This set's use lies in offensive teams who cannot run bulky pivots for the sake of momentum as this set isn't 100% reliable.

Haban Berry is very good item on it as it lets you live through Dragon attacks of Latias,ScarfDialga,Latios's Dragon Pulse etc and cripple them with Twave.Lum Berry is useful against Darkrai while Lustrous Orb is general item which lets you OHKO most Giratina-O.