The main deck has been amazing, but the sideboard could probably use a little work. Criticism and suggestions are always welcome!:smile:

LowBeyonder

08-03-2012, 01:04 PM

I've been experimenting with a Griselbrand Oath list, but out of curiosity I've been trying it in a storm shell instead of a drain shell. The idea was that an Oath plan shores up storm's worst matchup (Workshops), and in other games having a storm plan lets you win the turn Griselbrand hits the table by just drawing 14 cards and casting Tendrils for lots.

I played it at Knight-Ware last weekend and did poorly, primarily from misplaying, though there were a few card choices I didn't care for. Mind's Desire betrayed me at every turn and Mystical Tutor was underwhelming, so I've cut them both in the current list:

I suspect it's worse than a more blue-based Oath, but it's possible I'm just the wrong person to be tuning the list.

TheElvishPiper

08-03-2012, 01:18 PM

I like the storm shell a lot, but I went with as drain style shell for a few different reasons. I feel that a drain style shell is a lot stronger against Shops, and it also allows you to drop a Griselbrand into play and protect him. The rest of the deck is really synergistic with Griselbrand, and it also provides other win conditions such as Time Vault/Voltaic key and Jace.

rxavage

08-03-2012, 01:27 PM

I'll probably be playing Gris Oath once I acquire a few cards and proxy the power. I'd add a Tinker and BsC to my list though.

TheElvishPiper

08-03-2012, 01:37 PM

I'll probably be playing Gris Oath once I acquire a few cards and proxy the power. I'd add a Tinker and BsC to my list though.

If you want to run Tinker/BSC in an oath list, I would suggest GG Oath instead of Griselbrand Oath. Adding Tinker/Blightsteel Colossus to Griselbrand Oath would just throw another creature to the mix, when the point of the deck is to get Griselbrand on board. In addition to that, Tinker/Blightsteel Colossus is not as powerful as it used to be since the format has adapted to it fairly well.

For reference, here is a good representation of what GG Oath looks like.

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8495&iddeck=61926

rxavage

08-03-2012, 01:42 PM

If you want to run Tinker/BSC in an oath list, I would suggest GG Oath instead of Griselbrand Oath. Adding Tinker/Blightsteel Colossus to Griselbrand Oath would just throw another creature to the mix, when the point of the deck is to get Griselbrand on board. In addition to that, Tinker/Blightsteel Colossus is not as powerful as it used to be since the format has adapted to it fairly well.

For reference, here is a good representation of what GG Oath looks like.

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8495&iddeck=61926

Thanks. Yeah, probably just going with Gris Oath.

LowBeyonder

08-03-2012, 01:58 PM

Yeah, I didn't have Tinker at all in my initial lists and only added it when I added Vault/Key, then threw in Memory Jar as an additional target.

Drains definitely are stronger against shops, but I think the Oath plan is pretty good there on its own. My concern with the blue plan is that you have to protect Griselbrand over multiple turns (unless you draw into and resolve Vault/Key) versus winning on the spot.

The stock list also has fewer ways to recover from an awkward Oath -- if you hit too many cards before Griselbrand comes out, you can end up with Yawgwill in the yard and no way to recover. I had this problem a lot in initial goldfishing, particularly when I drew a Griselbrand early, which is why I added Memory's Journey.

Bill Copes

08-03-2012, 02:51 PM

You might get a little more leverage with 2x Spell pierces in the main over the Flusterstorms. Fluster is better at protecting your spells, but worse at trying to survive against your opponents' early plays. For instance, fluster is completely dead against shops. That being said, I feel you can afford to move at least one of them to the board, leading to the next point . . .

Other than Sensei's and a couple restricted spells, you don't have much draw/filtering going on. Perhaps pair the protection back a bit (I think I count 14 spells, currently) for some more gas (preordain, impulse, thirst for knowledge, a 3rd Jace, etc).

Your board looks great and fairly diverse, though I question the need for the 2nd Show and Tell.

Good luck at Gencon!

TheElvishPiper

08-03-2012, 04:32 PM

I agree Mr. Copes. The Flusterstorm's were great, but I think that Spell Pierce would fill the same slot with more applications. I was contemplating cutting the Duress (the one flex spot and just kind of threw it in there) as well as a Mana Drain for 2 Preordains. I cut the 3rd Jace, the Mind Sculptor for the main deck Show and Tell which has been great so far. I was originally questioning the second Show and Tell in the sideboard, but a lot of decks are running Grafdigger's Cage so I left it in. I could see it being cut though. Thanks for the suggestions!
:smile:

mmcgeach

08-08-2012, 09:39 AM

I've played a lot of oath and griselbrand decks. Some questions.

Seems like there's a lack of filtering. I usually want 4 impulse or preordain. But that leaves me with less counters and duresses. Similarly, there's a lack of tutors... that first list is missing vampiric. Also how has merchant scroll been? I usually wanted tutors that can fetch either part of the combo.

How is sensei's top w only 5 fetches? Much as i like it in a blue list, i find early mana in oath to be too valuable to spend spinning the top.

Have you tried the reactive demars list? I haven't but it seems nice to have that many answers to cage or shops... I feel like i wanna run answers permission and filtering, but these three compete for deck space. The demars list is all answers... I think more counters are needed against blue and shops...

Also i think people underestimate how bad grisel is against shops. You need to be able to counter a metamorph or duplicant, not just bounce or destroy it.

Some thoughts.

Peace.

mmcgeach

08-31-2012, 10:49 AM

There's a good article by Samoht on manadrain http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44441.msg609844#msg609844 that has some interesting improvements.

First, the list has gush + fastbond in place of a filter/answer package. The idea being that a draw engine does what you really need: it gets you to your combo pieces faster and gets you more answers and permission to deal with your opponent's threats until you can oath. While this may seem obvious, since it's the function of a draw engine in other blue decks, this actually represents sort of a departure from previous Oath strategies. The problem with a draw engine in oath is that you end up drawing your oath targets, and thereby inactivating oath. Thus previous oath decks ran filtering instead of drawing: preordains and impulses. However, grafdigger's has changed the way oath decks play. Oath decks need a maindeck Show and Tell, and probably more in the sideboard. This means that drawing your oath targets actually increases your strategic options, since you probably draw only one of two (or three) oath targets, and then have the option of tutoring for Show and Tell, or going the usual oath route.

Second, this deck drops key-vault for noxious revival + temporal mastery. The idea here is that noxious revival and TM are better draws on their own than key or vault. While I'm not entirely sold on this plan, its clear that noxious revival is good. It's been good in oath before. I'm a little worried that droping key-vault hurts the shops matchup. But more investigation is warranted.

Third: there's an unusual and innovative counter package: 4 FOW + 2 drain + Misdirection + Mindbreak Trap + 2 Flusterstorm. The percent of decks trying to do broken things is on the rise, and having a mindbreak trap always makes feel good in those cases. The extra free counters I've found to be great against blue, and really helpful where you need it most: while trying to resolve an early oath. Also free counters are great post-griselbrand, when you need to draw into something to protect the demon and may not have the mana available for mana drain. Dropping mental misstep is a little unfortunate, but you probably have to if you're going to include these other spells that are dead against shops.

With all that said, I think the important point for discussion is: which is the best draw engine for oath? Is it gush? Gush is good but sometimes awkward with the orchard-mana base.

What about Intuition-AK? It can be cast off orchards, draws about as many cards as gush, and allows running intuition, which is already a great tutor for oath/orchard. But you can't really play snapcaster mages, which basically makes this a viable engine again for big blue. Although, oathing into snapcaster could be sort of entertaining.

More Jace? He's good, if he resolves, and if you don't play him off orchards. Repeal can help get value of out of Jace by protecting him and bouncing threats. Repeal + Jace?

John Cox

08-31-2012, 09:09 PM

There's a good article by Samoht on manadrain http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44441.msg609844#msg609844 that has some interesting improvements.

With all that said, I think the important point for discussion is: which is the best draw engine for oath? Is it gush? Gush is good but sometimes awkward with the orchard-mana base.

What about Intuition-AK? It can be cast off orchards, draws about as many cards as gush, and allows running intuition, which is already a great tutor for oath/orchard. But you can't really play snapcaster mages, which basically makes this a viable engine again for big blue. Although, oathing into snapcaster could be sort of entertaining.

More Jace? He's good, if he resolves, and if you don't play him off orchards. Repeal can help get value of out of Jace by protecting him and bouncing threats. Repeal + Jace?

The advantage of gush+jace in oath is that you get to play a B/U/G control deck half the time when you don't have orchard and do the broken turn one Oath+Orchard plays when you have them. This makes oath probably a better shell for gush than something like bob control because if you haven't drawn the oath you've out drawn them anyways with gush/jace.

From a gush bond engine viewpoint if you have an oath against bob control that's not a bad place to be and probably about as good as having a dark confidant, but oath against workshops or delver is miles better than dark confidant.

I always feel like Jace is at it's peak in oath (aside from obvious brainstorm reasons) the threat density is just awesome. -How cool is drawing your oath monster with gush and still being able to fate seal your opponent to death with Jace.

John Cox

09-09-2012, 08:55 PM

There's a win con which I was just made aware of a few days ago for griselbrand oath. The idea is to use Noxious Revival in place of vault +key; with Noxious Revival you can put time walk on top of your deck and take extra turns until you've won. This is a really great win condition.

DragoFireheart

04-06-2013, 08:09 PM

How does noxious revivial work with Temporal Mastery? Doesn't Temporal get exiled upon resolution?