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Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

I have sourced my statements so I'm going to hold you to the same standard that you are holding me to. Source everything starting with your very first comment. When you are done then we will talk.

I wasn't sure what thread you posted something on, and you've refused to tell me where, so I don't know if you're making it up or not. And Lincoln never said anything in this speech about forcing war over tariffs, so I'm going to assume you're making things up.

If you read, it states he manumitted them when he returned to Illinois, a northern state. So you are wrong.

The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by the makeout hobo

I wasn't sure what thread you posted something on, and you've refused to tell me where, so I don't know if you're making it up or not. And Lincoln never said anything in this speech about forcing war over tariffs, so I'm going to assume you're making things up.

All of my statements are in this thread. I provided the evidence and you didn't read it carefully. Lincoln plainly states that he would go to war over taxes. It's not my fault that you didn't read it, but kneejerked. Here is where he threatened war.

The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.

Originally Posted by the makeout hobo

If you read, it states he manumitted them when he returned to Illinois, a northern state. So you are wrong.

If you knew anything about the times he lived in women were not allowed to own property by law. The part that states his wife owned four slaves while living in Illinois is a whitewash. She couldn't own slaves since she was a woman and the legal system was set up that way. The ownership of the slaves was still Grant's.

Since you have failed to source any of your statements I am going to assume that you are making things up and are only provoking an argument for the sake of it. You have no wish to debate honestly, which is your choice.

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by The_Patriot

I'm arguing the side that the south wasn't filled with a bunch of uneducated slobs that modern education systems have made it out to be. We use literacy as a gauge of education and under such gauge the south was equally as educated as the north. Prove that they weren't.

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by the makeout hobo

I would disagree. I actually study the civil war quite deeply (I'm studying for a history degree, and I am a civil war reenactor), and I think that there's been something of a whitewash job (pardon the pun) on that. Yes, it was about state rights, but that state right they were rebelling over specifically was slavery. If you read SC's document of secession, the only issue they mention is slavery. If you look at the run up, it's almost all about slavery. Only a few states mention anything other than slavery in their documents of secession, and I doubt any state would secede over canal tariffs. To say it wasn't about slavery is to ignore most of the factors that led to the war.

Of course, as a symbol, it can stand for whatever the 'waver' of the flag wishes it to stand for. Perhaps slavery was part of the idea of states' rights in the past - I would argue that very few 'wavers' still believe that today - maybe the really back woods rednecks. But at least not the educated ones. They wave it to promote the rights of the states to secede from the union, to make the laws they want to make so long as they don't butt heads with the constitution (which of course, slavery clearly does).

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by The_Patriot

All of my statements are in this thread. I provided the evidence and you didn't read it carefully. Lincoln plainly states that he would go to war over taxes. It's not my fault that you didn't read it, but kneejerked. Here is where he threatened war.

How is the federal government saying that it would collect tariffs and protect federal property a declaration of war? That is the job of the federal government. The federal government had been doing that for decades, I'm not sure if that counts at "going to war over". Morever, you are completely discounting the rhetoric and reason given for the South's act of treason. You sir have no grasp of history, and you are defending slave owners and vile human beings to back up your own sick twisted view of reality.

If you knew anything about the times he lived in women were not allowed to own property by law. The part that states his wife owned four slaves while living in Illinois is a whitewash. She couldn't own slaves since she was a woman and the legal system was set up that way. The ownership of the slaves was still Grant's.

At best a legal loophole, not "the north allowed slavery" like you stated.

Since you have failed to source any of your statements I am going to assume that you are making things up and are only provoking an argument for the sake of it. You have no wish to debate honestly, which is your choice.

I haven't stated anything that needs to be sourced. If there is any statement you'd like me to source, feel free.

The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by the makeout hobo

How is the federal government saying that it would collect tariffs and protect federal property a declaration of war? That is the job of the federal government. The federal government had been doing that for decades, I'm not sure if that counts at "going to war over". Morever, you are completely discounting the rhetoric and reason given for the South's act of treason. You sir have no grasp of history, and you are defending slave owners and vile human beings to back up your own sick twisted view of reality.

At best a legal loophole, not "the north allowed slavery" like you stated.

I haven't stated anything that needs to be sourced. If there is any statement you'd like me to source, feel free.

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

In and of themselves, no.

When coupled with the revenue generated by said taxation going to provide other people the means to exercise their rgihts, then taxation becomes involuntary servitude, as, thru the taxes you are forced to pay, you are forced to work for the direct benefit of others.

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by the makeout hobo

There were black slave owners?

Yes, and some were quite wealthy.

"God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."-C G Jung

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by Goobieman

In and of themselves, no.

When coupled with the revenue generated by said taxation going to provide other people the means to exercise their rgihts, then taxation becomes involuntary servitude, as, thru the taxes you are forced to pay, you are forced to work for the direct benefit of others.

I am absolutely astounded by posts like these. They almost seem anti-American and anti-democratic, because what they're saying is "If other people vote to do things I disagree with, then they are enslaving me."

Seriously, folks? Do you not understand that in a democracy, you don't always get your way? Is this that hard of a concept?

Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

Originally Posted by Groucho

Damn that infernal democracy! How dare the elected officials do what people who elected them ask them to do!

On the contrary, America hosted town hall meetings all over the country, where American citizens voiced their concerns over the health care bill and urged their representatives to oppose this bill. Very few democrat law makers did as their constituents asked. The Health Care bill is going to redistribute the wealth. What American citizens asked their congressmen and senators to redistribute their wealth? I suppose you were one of that minority. I hope you have done your part to redistribute your wealth by volunteering to pay extra taxes.