Smacking those with their head in the clouds back down to reality with my right hand and flippin 'em the bird with my left.

Sunday, October 08, 2006

Excerpts from Letter to a Christian Nation

Just finished reading Sam Harris' new book "Letter to a Christian Nation" and I'd like to post some of my favorite quotes. Most of them are self-explanatory, but I will add comments where necessary to help put them in context.

Remarking on how America stands virtually alone among the developed nations in the percentage of people who read the Bible literally:

"Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency." (p. xii)

The next three quotes demonstrate that the Bible (and all religions in general) is not necessarily the best moral compass to live by:

"The problem, however, is that the teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. You are, of course, free to interpret the Bible differently--though isn't it amazing that you have succeeded in discerning the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith have failed?" (pp. 11-12)

"The moment a person recognizes that slaves are human beings like himself, enjoying the same capacity for suffering and happiness, he will understand that it is patently evil to own them and treat them like farm equipment. It is remarkably easy for a person to arrive at this epiphany--and yet, it had to be spread at the point of a bayonet throughout the Confederate South, among the most pious Christians this country has ever known." (pp. 18-19)

"One of the most pernicious effects of religion is that it tends to divorce morality from the reality of human and animal suffering. Religion allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are not -- that is, when they have nothing to do with suffering or its alleviation. Indeed, religion allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are highly immoral -- that is, when pressing these concerns inflicts unnecessary and appalling suffering on innocent human beings." (p. 25)

And now a good definition of Atheism:

"The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply an admission of the obvious. In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist". We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious belief." (p. 51)

This quote elaborates on the conflict between science and religion:

"If there were good reasons to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, or that Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, these beliefs would necessarily form part of our rational description of the universe. Everyone recognizes that to rely upon "faith" to decide specific questions of historical fact is ridiculous--that is, until the conversation turns to the origin of books like the Bible and the Koran, to the resurrection of Jesus, to Muhammad's conversation with the archangel Gabriel, or to any other religious dogma. It is time that we admitted that faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail." (p. 67)

And now, to knock them off of their religious high horse:

"There is, in fact, no worldview more reprehensible in its arrogance than that of a religious believer: the creator of the universe takes an interest in me, approves of me, loves me, and will reward me after death; my current beliefs, drawn from scripture, will remain the best statement of the truth until the end of the world; everyone who disagrees with me will spend an eternity in hell.... An average Christian, in an average church, listening to an average Sunday sermon has achieved a level of arrogance simply unimaginable in scientific discourse--and there have been some extraordinarily arrogant scientists." (pp. 74-75)

And a wake-up call to the rest of us:

"It is worth remembering that the September 11 hijackers were college-educated, middle-class people who had no discernible experience of political oppression. They did, however, spend a remarkable amount of time at their local mosque talking about the depravity of infidels and about the pleasures that await martyrs in Paradise. How many more architects and engineers must hit the wall at four hundred miles an hour before we admit to ourselves that jihadist violence is not merely a matter of education, poverty, or politics? The truth, astonishingly enough, is this: in the year 2006, a person can have sufficient intellectual and material resources to build a nuclear bomb and still believe that he will get seventy-two virgins in Paradise. Western secularists, liberals, and moderates have been very slow to understand this. The cause of their confusion is simple: they don't know what it is like to really believe in God." (pp. 82-83)

And finally:

"Nonbelievers like myself stand beside you, dumbstruck by the Muslim hordes who chant death to whole nations of the living. But we stand dumbstruck by you as well--by your denial of tangible reality, by the suffering you create in service to your religious myths, and by your attachment to an imaginary God." (p.91)

Thanks again, great review.I've noticed you use the "Read more" code, would you like to use something like a "drop down"-"expand-collapse post"? let me know if I can help, it really works great for long posts and the code is really easy to use.Have a look at my blog just as an example: http://assurdestorienormali.blogspot.com/

I just finished reading Letter to a Christian Nation last night. You've capture the *Gasp* points quite well. My favorite is "One of the most pernicious effects of religion is that it tends to divorce morality from the reality of human and animal suffering."

it captures the insanity of focusing on gay marriage at the expense of real suffering in a way that made me feel proud to be an atheist.

Emanuel Goldstein said..."but he is as much a fundamentalist atheist as any fundamentalist."

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As many times as I've heard that statement I have never encountered a formal definition of "fundamentalist" that DOES encompass the atheist so labeled but fails to encompass almost every other human being on earth and possibly some of the great apes.

I've read this book as well as Sam's first book, The End of Faith, several times. I just can't get enough. It is so refreshing to finally have someone scream my thoughts from the rooftops, so to speak. As an atheist, I've been saying these things for years, however I don't have quite the patience or demeanor to say them as eloquently as Sam. It's time for the God of Abraham to go by the wayside along with Zeus and Apollo. I suggest that everyone read The End of Faith. One should also read "The God Delusion" and "The Selfish Gene" (both by Richard Dawkins). For enlightenment, go to Richarddawkins.org and Samharris.org.

It is so funny how we make real what we intend to diffuse as an illusion. It reminds me so much of when I watched a childhood friend Roger screaming into the face of his sister "No way!" and she answered "Uh huh Booger!" back. Conflict arises, or is expressed as an outcome, when two illusions (No way...Uh huh! Booger) collided. Conflict is never between what is real truth and what is an illusion. Real truth simply exists and has no need for expansion beyond what it is. There is literally nothing beyond what is real, honest, great and perfect. The truly great thing about such arguments as displayed here comes when the fog of both lies lifts and what is recognized in its eventuality is truth, perfect truth, nothing more, nothing less. I have no complaints with such discourse, even if it has gone on, and on, and on. Eventually every body will discover their Self to be EveryOne; complete, perfect, honest and true.....and very much at peace with Life. It is only what we think our Self to be that really screws our enjoying it right now. And, to think...all we need do is STOP.

You may be interested in a new book that has just been published in response to Sam Harris. It is entitled "Letter to a Christian Nation: Counter Point" by RC Metcalf. It is available through Amazon and B&N or through the author's website at http://thinkagain.us. Please let others know about this important work!

the thing that this guy is missing is the fact that the old testiment is dealing with the law and the new testiment with God's grace. Before Jesus came the law was to be obeyed but after he came and paid for our sins by dying for us his grace washes away the law and saves us from our sins.

No. We had to follow the harsh law before. But Jesus came and died on the cross. The blood he gave washes away our sins. And now we do not have to harshly punish for sins. Jesus forgives all. And he loves all. Even you.

Hahahaha! I love how you stupid religous people respond with the exact kind of bullcrap that Letter to a Christian Nation is talking about. What kind of response to the criticisms Sam Harris makes are those? Can you explain those beliefs? Can you really believe that it makes sense? No, but then again if you did think rationally, there's no way you could actually believe any of your crap.

No you all got it wrong. After Jesus died on the cross he used the magic glowing cristals to signal the space ship Estrella to bomb the devil's hide out. After this he summoned the great sparkily magic in order to cancle out our sins mathematically, at which points the gates were open and the holy magic water of love peace and joy was free to flow upon the world. But luckily for us the holy magic water of love peace and joy kills the none believers.

So Anonymous, before you had to obey the law and the way you got into heaven was by making a sacrifice but Jesus came and changed all that. So now You don't have to obey the law. You can just do what you want and then ask Jesus for forgiveness with remorse in your heart. Hell, sounds like a free ride to me. I'm in. Human sacrifice is no way to atone for your sins. Be a man, stand up and pay your own bill. You religious people are delusional. Open your eyes.

"Hahahaha! I love how you stupid religous people respond with the exact kind of bullcrap that Letter to a Christian Nation is talking about."

Corey, there are respected writers out there who write 'intellectual and moral' defenses for religion and Christianity. The 'stupid religious people' who responded see no need to duplicate that role in as constrained a space as this, but cut to the chase: Jesus loves you, and He gave His life for you as the perfect, permanent sacrifice that your sins might be forgiven by his blood. And He is interested in you, in having a personal relationship with you for eternity.

2 things to consider: If you accept that such a thing exists which many ambiguously call the 'spiritual', Christian or not, then you might appreciate more that these beliefs are beyond rational explanation. Rational meaning based on logical deduction and reasoning predicated on the belief in the supreme authority of our human mind. This explanation and its justification is not the product of such reasoning but the touch from God with whom these believers have a personal relationship with. Their apparent persistent, irritatingly 'delusional' faith arises not from reasoning, but the personal relationship with a God who is a friend - you can attack them, but you cannot taunt them into believing their friend doesn't exists. This friend is God and he is indeed interested in you. One should be prepared to accept that if God exists, there will be numerous things which seem incomprehensible to us since He is God, and we are human.

Please also consider that no matter how vicious the attacks may have been, these so-called delusional people have consistently responded to you and others with love. If this was not the internet, and someone rushes up to you to push you away from a falling crate on the street, how would you respond even if you thought he was 'seeing things'? Perhaps, you might send him to a mental institution, but I doubt you'll taunt his intentions in the same manner you have here.

A word on my so-called arrogance.""There is, in fact, no worldview more reprehensible in its arrogance than that of a religious believer: the creator of the universe takes an interest in me, approves of me..."There is a profound misunderstanding which has occurred here. The Christian life, in fact, demands not arrogance, but humility, and it is hard.

"Be a man, stand up and pay your own bill." Anonymous Wed Oct 31, 04:23:00 AM 2007As much as I would like to, as much as any human would like to feel good about themselves that they have paid the bills, it is impossible. Do you honestly think you can make amends for everything in your life you have done which veers from your moral code (let alone the Christian one I propose). If you say 'yes', might I then say you are the arrogant one? I cannot pay my own bill, far from it, and understanding the magnitude of Jesus' sacrifice makes me increasingly aware of my rottenness and evil. Understanding that I am utterly undeserving of this love and interest the Almighty has taken in me despite my unworthiness and inability to pay my bills is to experience grace, and the deeply personal realisation that I am nothing, dwarfed by this Amazing Grace.

If you were an SS soldier during Nazi Germany who participated in one of the numerous massacres against innocent civilians, would you dare to ask any one of those for forgiveness. And if such a person not only forgave you, but was interested to have a relationship with you and even send His son to die for you, would you be feeling very good about yourself? I think arrogance would be the last reaction. Instead, dumbfoundedness, eternal gratitude, perhaps devotion. To quote you, Corey, "Can you really believe that it makes sense?" No, it does not! It violates all our principles of justice. But it has been given to us out of grace and mercy, and who are we to argue with that? Are you going to tell the innocent man you massacred, "To hell with your forgiveness!"

i loved your blog..i just finished reading his book 'The End of Faith' and personally i think its about time someone as rational came along... after reading your blog im quite keen on reading his other book too! i dont think iv ever read such a coherent and lucid book against religion before.

it seems hardly full of hate as some have said, he even goes on to demonstrate peaceful alternatives to spirituality without the usual 'you'll go to hell if you dont do this!' jargon.

The talk of a 'personal relationship' with God or Jesus that Christians like to talk about is incredible. What 'interest' is he taking in a parent who's son or daughter has been murdered, a prisoner that is being tortured or someone dying in great pain? Do they deserve it because they were destined to do something evil later in their lives? Christians can only come up with the marvelous cop-out, 'The Lord works in mysterious ways'. If that's how The Lord works then is he deserving of praise? Let's face it, all books including The Bible, The Koran etc are not the word of God but the words of men - translated, retranslated, interpreted, reinterpreted etc etc etc. For anyone to live in this scientifically enlightened age using a 2000 year old book as a guide is ignorant beyond belief. I want people to be happy in life, I have no vested interest in there being no God or afterlife. I've lost family and friends like everyone else and would love to see them again, so why shouldn't I let myself be deluded with other religiously-minded people? The reason is that there is a lot of proof to say that God doesn't exist and none that he does.

to Emanuel Goldstein funddementalist atheist is simply being really, really irritated that people still hold such beliefs and being willing to express that frustration that some could with no basis reject reason.

i need some help from any of you, please help, i beg you!!! everytime i argue with a religious person they just strat shuffling through their stupid little portable bible in the middle of their response as if the answer to every question i ask is going to be there.

i point out that these are written by people who copied (and changed it a bit)from other people. repeat a lot of times and you have your bible which is so far from the original that the fool who started it wouldn't recognise the damn thing. they just don't get it, its like they didn't even hear me, they just ignore the comment and continue in the futile defense of a non-existent God.

The book just shows Sam is just like the rest of us Christians (and humanity). He is searching for an answer to the basic questions of life: Why are we here? Is there a purpose to my life? Is there a right or wrong? Why is there something instead of nothing?

His answers are chance, no, no, unknown so far.

But he is still searching, since this void is God given and he cannot escape it. The book reeks of anger and resentment as do most of the answers. I'll give overall answer to these questions:

You do not want to submit to anyone or anything and especially not a god. The irony here is that Sam and most of you already worship a god: yourselves or science or nature or truth. Something takes hold of you and you give yourselves over to it, totally unaware that whatever you have chosen, is still worship.

That is a verse from the battle hym of the republic(note that it is refered to as a hym). Christians at the time of the civil war did recognize that african americans were humans.

How does one tell what is human and what is animal anyhow? Some spirtual doctrine is necesary to make the distinction or at the very least some acceptance that there is a supernatural difference between the two. If there is no difference other than genetic code I would think it "arogant" to believe that humans are superior to animals simply because of their good fortune when it comes to the gene pool. Without a supernatural division of some kind man is just an animal; an advanced and inteligent animal but an animal all the same. For most of western civilzation this necesary dividing line has come from the Bible. And because of this the realization Mr. Harris is talking about has historicaly came from christian movements. It did in Rome, Ireland, the British Empire and in the United States. If you doubt that Christianity played a role in freeing the black slaves of america refer back to the republic battle hym at the top.

That is a verse from the battle hym of the republic(note that it is refered to as a hym). Christians at the time of the civil war did recognize that african americans were humans.

How does one tell what is human and what is animal anyhow? Some spirtual doctrine is necesary to make the distinction or at the very least some acceptance that there is a supernatural difference between the two. If there is no difference other than genetic code I would think it "arogant" to believe that humans are superior to animals simply because of their good fortune when it comes to the gene pool. Without a supernatural division of some kind man is just an animal; an advanced and inteligent animal but an animal all the same. For most of western civilzation this necesary dividing line has come from the Bible. And because of this the realization Mr. Harris is talking about has historicaly came from christian movements. It did in Rome, Ireland, the British Empire and in the United States. If you doubt that Christianity played a role in freeing the black slaves of america refer back to the republic battle hym at the top.

Reading this discussion is a lot like watching the arguments between Spock and Bones, in the Star Trek TV series, on whether human emotion is beneficial or harmful. Both can point to facts to support their position. But the fact is humans are emotional and the idea that we can eliminate emotion from who we are is so non-credible as to be ridiculous and irrational.

In the same way humans are emotional, we are also spiritual. Any rational examination of human history, culture, and behavior must concede this truth about ourselves. And the belief we can eliminate human spirituality from who we are is equally non-credible, ridiculous and irrational.

The writers of our Constitution knew this. For the first amendment in the Bill of Rights begins:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

It appears to me that Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins & Co want to make atheism the established religion of the US government, and abolish the second phrase of the first amendment (placed in quotes above).

I was raised a christian. It was only when I removed myself from the brainwashing sunday events that I was allowed to think for myself. When you logically think for yourself you realize what's really going on. There is not necessarily a true love for a god. There is more a fear of going to hell. So survival instinct tell you to take the safest path and tell yourself you believe so you can no longer fear this upcoming torment. Any time I have shared my newfound disbelief, the believer's last resort is to threaten me with the idea of Hell. This is proof enough to me that it has nothing to do with a GOD. They are just scared of the IDEA of an eternity of suffering. And if GOD was about free will then why put HELL in the background to scare you into believeing....Wake up people...Learn who you really are as human beings, as animals on this planet then you will understand how you function and why you function.

Well I have just got hold of the book and am reading it. It is interesting and I do not think at all arrogant or objectionable. I think I agree with him. It is religion that I fear. Blind, accepting religion. TJ

I think the Christians posting here really need to think about why they are certain that Muslims are wrong about pretty much everything. When they understand that, they'll be a little closer to understanding Sam Harris and his view of their own religion.

As a factory worker Atheist, I can testify that education is key toward ridding your mind of religious delusions. I find that there are many people who are on the fence about the validity of religion, but when pressed would NEVER connect that feeling to the label Atheist in regards to themselves. NO ONE wants to be labeled Atheist, including me. Both my supervisors are born-agains. I have the courage to come out, but not the means to survive it.

is a fear of hell necessarily a wrong reason in terms of being part of the process of wanting to become a saved Christian?

if you were in a plane that was about to crash and someone rushed to you and gave you a parachute that would save your life, would it be wrong for you to take b/c you don't want to die? would you question the person and call them arrogant and foolish for claiming to know that the plane was going to crash, even though you kept your window shades closed and closed your ears when the pilot gave the panicked announcement? i think not.

we are in that situation. because of our sin, we are going to crash, eternally. But God in His great love gives us a chance for salvation through His son Jesus Christ, who died on our behalf, taking upon the punishment of our sins so that we may live by grace, free from sin to live for Him and enjoy and glorify Him for eternity.

It's all about love, don't blindly hate. Sin is so evident in every individual, whether internally, externally, or both (usually both). God hates sin, and rightly so, because He is absolutely perfect and without sin and has every right to abhor any defilement. Yet in all that He has blessed us with in this life, we have turned in rebellion, slapping Him in the face with our arrogant transgressions, loathing Him and His Word in our heart. Yet in spite of all this, He still extends grace. The chance is now, you only get until the day you die to turn your life around to live for and by His amazing love.

And let me tell you. From someone who has seen the depths of their sin and disgusting arrogance, knowing that it is all in His hands gives me such an amazing sense of assurance and joy. The kind that no other being or ideology or material item in this world can offer.

From someone who has seen the depths of their sin and disgusting arrogance, knowing that it is all in His hands gives me such an amazing sense of assurance and joy. The kind that no other being or ideology or material item in this world can offer.

I am currently reading "The End of Faith. To me, it seems that quite a few of you are missing Sam's point.

It shouldn't be the Atheists Vs. Christians Vs. Muslims Vs. Jews. If you want to believe in God, the Tooth Fairy, ghosts or whatever, fine. Just make rational decisions in your every day life, and be extra careful when those decisions affect others.Look at the world around you. People are judging, hating, ruling, and killing in the name of God. Much more so than any other reason.If I were God, and I looked down on this planet, and saw how ALL of humanity was acting,"in MY name", I would be pretty pissed off!

We need to "socially" evolve. Get past all of the crap holding us back from discovering HOW life works and stop arguing about WHY life is. If there is a god(and I do WANT to believe there is, I just haven't seen any reasonable evidence), than I would picture him to be more of a scientist and less of a diva. One who would want us to understand the complexity of the life he created, not one who's looking for his own little glee club.(Yaaa God!) I would also think that God has a good enough sense of self to not need a bunch of people following him around,"living for him and glorifying him for eternity". If God exists, give him more credit than that! He doesn't need to be propped up by you.

Bottom line.If you believe, make REASONABLE decisions in you life. Not decisions based on emotion(religion). Take responsibility for yourselves, I'm sure God's tired of you "leaving it in his hands" Your here to learn, NOT be lazy. Stop killing each other over a few books and what YOU interpret their meaning to be. Tomato, Tomatoe, Just get along with each other.

If you don't believe, think of all the money that you will save at Christmas! :)Scott

i have only read the book once but i remember how a person in the government, something finger, was against finding a vaccine for aids because it encouraged premarital sex. i was livid when i read tat. Its amazing how soomeone would have millions die to "prevent" premarital sex, rather than have millions saved.. its fucking crazy..