The Federal prosecutors that indicted Michael Vick have a 90% conviction rate. They dont just go around drudging up cases on innocent people. This is the real deal.......as unfortunate as it is for Michael Vick, the Atlanta Falcons, and the NFL.

There's a high likelihood that he will see significant jail time. Sentencing in these cases follow strict guidelines and he very well could receive upwards of 15+ years in prison if convicted.........and theres a 90% chance he will be.

I understand the whole "innocent until proven guilty" cliche.......but its the 21st century. People are more impatient and judemental than ever. The crimes he's being convicted of are barbaric, inhumane and above all violent, so instantly people are going to assume he's guilty because you cant make up these things, so they must be true.

Do I believe he's guilty ?? The evidence is all right there, and the case is strong. I'm a believer in the justice system and its ability to determine guilty from innocent. I just find it hard to believe that ANYONE could have such disrespect for life.....and thats the hardest part; Michael Vick may not be guilty of these crimes, but someone IS.

Correction: 95%

Vick will not get off on his celeb status like many falcons fans are hoping. We have learned since the OJ case not to handle sure fire cases blindly. When Vick is convicted, I'm predicting a 3 year sentence.

Sadly, he might, if he decides to talk about other players and celebrities that are also involved. I found this article on ESPN posted on May 31st. A source, a guy who has been involved in dog fighting for 30 years, claims to have not only witnessed Vick at these fights and labeled him as a "heavyweight" at these fights, but also had his pit fight against Vick's dog. This guy said

Quote:

"Everybody in the dog world is worried about Michael Vick talking," the source said, shortly before leaving our interview room and heading back to work. "Michael Vick is making large money; he's making millions, OK? And if he has to tell on some people [to avoid prison time], I think he would tell … I don't put nothing past him."

So this could open up to something huge, much bigger than what it already is, if this source is correct with how many other people are involved in this activity. It was also stated earlier in the article that a lot of athletes are involved in dog fighting, so who knows, Vick might pull a Canseco and start naming names to keep himself out of prison (or at least for less time). This could get really interesting.

Wow, that would be interesting. If it's true that there are other "celebrities" to name, I can see Michael Vick throwing out names of those people to lessen his sentence... that would open a new can of worms! And it would be interesting to see who's names is on that list?

Wow, that would be interesting. If it's true that there are other "celebrities" to name, I can see Michael Vick throwing out names of those people to lessen his sentence... that would open a new can of worms! And it would be interesting to see who's names is on that list?

If he is smart which I think history has shown us Vick isn't. He won't name any large defensive lineman that he might have to take a hit from anytime in the near future. I fully expect Vick to "turn over a new leaf" and try to talk down his sentence. He has way too much to lose. One season lost is a rather large financial loss to endure.

It will however be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm interested in how the NFL is going to handle one of it's prime marketable athletes of the last 5 years being prosecuted.

As of right now I haven't seen enough evidence to prove that Vick new about it. I do see that there is quite a bit that shows there was dog fighting on the property although I don't know enough about dog breeding to say for sure. I've heard people say that when you have a dog breeding business you would have rape stands and treadmills and such. I personally don't know. But you can't argue with the carcasses that were found. So I am pretty much sold on the dog fighting part of it. But as of now, and I know the feds haven't released all of their evidence yet, but as of now I am not sold on Vick actually knowing about the fighting. Yes Vicks name is one the lease but that doesn't prove it to me. When the allegations were first made Terrell Davis was on the NFL network and said that he had bought some property for family members and that he rarely ever visits them and he has no idea what really goes on there. He just trusts whoever lives there. So its not so unheard of. I have you figure he has a very demanding schedule year round so he wouldn't have the time to go often if at all. If any of you have a time share that you might rent out for a season, how much do you know about what is going on there? There could be a meth lab there and you would have no idea.

This is not homerism, just simply my opinion. If it were TO who was in this kind of trouble I would think the same way.

VERY WELL PUT
i like the fact that your down to earth about there may be more evidence than what is out there, but as far as you have seen now you just dont see anything demanding conviction

saying that he owned the property is a double edged sword, yes he is stupid for not knowing what is going on his property, but that does not make him guilty by association

im not saying he is guilty or innocent, its just not looking too good

hovito213 wrote:

When the allegations were first made Terrell Davis was on the NFL network and said that he had bought some property for family members and that he rarely ever visits them and he has no idea what really goes on there. He just trusts whoever lives there.

i bet since this has come up he has visited every piece of property he owns, and prob every pro sports player has

Ok you guys, settle down for just a sec and use your common sense. I've read everything you all have been arguing over so now listen to a voice of reason, okay? First of all if you haven't done so take the time and read the conspiracy indictment, the whole thing, 'cause you want to make your comments informed and intelligent, right? Just DO IT!!! Read the thing first, BEFORE you make another uninformed post...start there.

Next (again it's there for the reading, just Google the keywords) please inform yourselves of the actual LEGAL ISSUES involved w/ the case. I realize this is becoming an emotionally charged discussion but it CAN be approached intelligently if people will just read the indictment and the news reports on the physical, circumstantial, and witness evidence! For example, although Vick denied it publically, he has been seen on multiple occasions coming and going from the Surry County property and is known to be the owner of MV7 Kennels (a Pitbull website listed at that address) w/ connections to the "Bad Newz Kennels" and has not only been proven to own dogs at those kennels but has been in the local Vet supply store buying "unusual" products associating w/ dogfighting operations, in his own name (credit card bills and receipts are in the record) so what is clear is:
1) He LIED about never going there and blaming everything on his partners in crime, and
2) He IS guilty of breaking the Virginia law against "possession" of fighting dogs (retrieved from his property) which is a FELONY! That's a fact, plain and simple. He hasn't been charged yet at the State level, but he will be.
3) The Feds chose the EASIEST of the crimes to indict him on, "Conspiracy" because of the overwhelming evidence that makes it a slam dunk to prove. They could have, and still can, bring charges against him for gambling on the fights and interstate racketeering.
4) He has become an extreme embarrassment to the NFL (who, BTW, has conducted their own independent investigation and know ALL the pertinent facts, whether they're pursuing them at this point or not) so there's no way Vick is going to just walk away from this. He's done too much damage to the reputation and good will of the NFL to just slide.

Anyone who is still on the "Vick is innocent" bandwagon are either naive or deluded. Inform yourselves of the FACTS and the LAW before continuing to embarrass yourselves further w/ emotional comments that will just come back to haunt you later, 'cause Vick is headed for jail and the NFL will not let him drag the league thru this mess much longer. The really unfortunate fact of the matter is this: Vick is very likely just the beginning of an NFL house cleaning of "Bad Boy" problems that could cost the league millions of dollars in lost revenue if they don't take firm action to correct this stuff...there surely will be many other bad boys who will be brought down under the leagues new conduct policy, Vick is just the biggest name at this point. But one thing is certain, the days of an NFL athlete's "thug" behavior going unpunished is over!

Some people should really think and read before they speak. But I will give you this, you are consistent. You have been screaming Vicks guilt from the very first allegation. And you keep putting out the same tired references to his guilt. Again as I stated before, that is just not enough for me to be convinced. And you better believe the Feds know they have a very weak case as of right now which is why they are withholding the real evidence. Everything they have put out is circumstantial and heresay. Not enough to convict a person that is going to have a very high powered defense. I want to see the rest of the evidence they have cause its not enough for me yet. I don't know if Vick is innocent but I surely don't know if he is guilt. I am just one of the few that is open minded enough to say "I don't know for sure". We don't know all the facts so how can anyone make a truly informed decision. That's like an oxymoron, making an informed decision without all the information._________________

In reference to the Manning vs Brady debate
Hilit wrote: I think this is the argument you have to be involved in when youre in purgatory.

Some people should really think and read before they speak. But I will give you this, you are consistent. You have been screaming Vicks guilt from the very first allegation. And you keep putting out the same tired references to his guilt. Again as I stated before, that is just not enough for me to be convinced. And you better believe the Feds know they have a very weak case as of right now which is why they are withholding the real evidence. Everything they have put out is circumstantial and heresay. Not enough to convict a person that is going to have a very high powered defense. I want to see the rest of the evidence they have cause its not enough for me yet. I don't know if Vick is innocent but I surely don't know if he is guilt. I am just one of the few that is open minded enough to say "I don't know for sure". We don't know all the facts so how can anyone make a truly informed decision. That's like an oxymoron, making an informed decision without all the information.

Actually, I gotta disagree with you here. The feds never go into a case unless they are pretty sure they can win, which is why they have a 95% conviction rate. This is why they took so long to name Vick in anything, why it took so long from the time allogations were first mentioned til they finally indicted him. Its because they were making sure they had a solid case, so I highly doubt the feds are worried cause they seem pretty sure they know what they are doing, and have a good track record to back it up.

A grand jury agreed that with the evidence the feds have against Vick is enough to take him to trial. So they obviously have something a little more than an off the wall theory. I'm not saying this is as good as a conviction in court, but it sure looks like the feds have enough evidence to place Vick at the least very close to this situation.

They also have proof dog fighting happened on property he owned. They have over 60 dogs with injuries that are found on animals in fighting events such as this. They found dog fighting training equipment, they found the pits they used to fight the dogs with blood on the walls, they found carpets with blood stains on them. They have affiliations with Bad News Kennels which have had incidents in the past with dog fighting else where. They have multiple witnesses that will testify in court under oath that he was there. They will testify that he brought dogs in from cross state lines to fight. That he was a "heavyweight" in the scene. They will testify that he was involved in the cruel killings of dogs that wouldnt fight. There are people who will testify that he gambled and handed over thousands of dollars in cash directly due to the results of these fights.

And all this is the info they have given to the press. Obviously they are holding yet even more evidence they dont want the press or the defense to have yet. They will have to turn it over once the trial starts, but there is absolutely no reason for them to hand it over now. So with all of this evidence that has been brought to light so far as well as all the evidence they are still holding onto, I don't think the feds are worried about going into this very high profile case with only circumstancle evidence. 95% conviction rate tells me they know how to do their job ... and they do it pretty good.

Some people should really think and read before they speak. But I will give you this, you are consistent. You have been screaming Vicks guilt from the very first allegation. And you keep putting out the same tired references to his guilt. Again as I stated before, that is just not enough for me to be convinced. And you better believe the Feds know they have a very weak case as of right now which is why they are withholding the real evidence. Everything they have put out is circumstantial and heresay. Not enough to convict a person that is going to have a very high powered defense. I want to see the rest of the evidence they have cause its not enough for me yet. I don't know if Vick is innocent but I surely don't know if he is guilt. I am just one of the few that is open minded enough to say "I don't know for sure". We don't know all the facts so how can anyone make a truly informed decision. That's like an oxymoron, making an informed decision without all the information.

How does that make sense. Hovi, I don't think you understand. If the Feds have a case against you, it's not for the hell of it. They have gathered evidence and done their part and now feel it is time to bring formal charges against him.

If they were withholding "real" evidence, that could mean that the evidence is even more pertinent than what we already know. If the Feds had a weak case, I don't think we would have heard about any of this because there wouldn't be an indictment._________________

Some people should really think and read before they speak. But I will give you this, you are consistent. You have been screaming Vicks guilt from the very first allegation. And you keep putting out the same tired references to his guilt. Again as I stated before, that is just not enough for me to be convinced. And you better believe the Feds know they have a very weak case as of right now which is why they are withholding the real evidence. Everything they have put out is circumstantial and heresay. Not enough to convict a person that is going to have a very high powered defense. I want to see the rest of the evidence they have cause its not enough for me yet. I don't know if Vick is innocent but I surely don't know if he is guilt. I am just one of the few that is open minded enough to say "I don't know for sure". We don't know all the facts so how can anyone make a truly informed decision. That's like an oxymoron, making an informed decision without all the information.

Withholding evidence from the public before a trial is the way the system works. They won't reveal the evidence for fear of compromising it.

And no federal case is a weak case. A 95% conviction rate assures that every federal case is pretty strong._________________

Kelly Link wrote:

Television characters almost always have better haircuts, funnier friends, simpler attitudes toward sex. They marry magicians, win lotteries, have affairs with women who carry guns in their purses.

This is exactly what I've been saying. I think whatever evidence they are witholding is much more damning than what they released to the press. To me what they have released so far is pretty weak and the feds know that. They know that if that was all they had they would never get a conviction. And I refuse to believe they would go into this with only the evidence that they have presented. I believe they have evidence that they will not release until the trial. Once I learn that I will be able to make a desicion, but I feel I need to hear both sides in full. I understand not everyone feels the need to hear Vicks side. Some people don't care in the least. But in order for ME to make an informed decision I would need to hear both sides._________________

In reference to the Manning vs Brady debate
Hilit wrote: I think this is the argument you have to be involved in when youre in purgatory.

You have officaly grasped for more straws than workers at Friendly's
(Assist over to Bill Simmons)

Nothing really left to say in this thread after Night Angels(Great post)

I just got one quick question,

Lets say for example, that a highschool kids parents go out of town. That kid then has a party. Someone at the party drinkis to much, then drives home, gets in a crash. The parents of the house( who were unaware of what was going on,) can still be held accountable.

So at the very least, even if Vick had no knowledge( ) is he at least guilty of being the owner of a house were illegal activity took place ?_________________

You have officaly grasped for more straws than workers at Friendly's
(Assist over to Bill Simmons)

Nothing really left to say in this thread after Night Angels(Great post)

I just got one quick question,

Lets say for example, that a highschool kids parents go out of town. That kid then has a party. Someone at the party drinkis to much, then drives home, gets in a crash. The parents of the house( who were unaware of what was going on,) can still be held accountable.

So at the very least, even if Vick had no knowledge( ) is he at least guilty of being the owner of a house were illegal activity took place ?

Same thing if u had No Idea that a person was cooking crack in your house._________________

You have officaly grasped for more straws than workers at Friendly's
(Assist over to Bill Simmons)

Nothing really left to say in this thread after Night Angels(Great post)

I just got one quick question,

Lets say for example, that a highschool kids parents go out of town. That kid then has a party. Someone at the party drinkis to much, then drives home, gets in a crash. The parents of the house( who were unaware of what was going on,) can still be held accountable.

So at the very least, even if Vick had no knowledge( ) is he at least guilty of being the owner of a house were illegal activity took place ?

Same thing if u had No Idea that a person was cooking crack in your house.

What are you talking about? I really have no idea what that means, or how it answered my question...._________________

First of all.......if Michael Vick leased the house, he won't be held accountable for said illegal activites. I have known many people that rent out houses where illegal activities were taking place (none nearly as violent as this), and the fact that it was leased to tenants prevented the owner from having to take responsibility for them. Either way.....this is the LEAST of his worries.

Clearly theres a very strong case against him and it has nothing to do with race (not that anyone in here has brought it up, but I have heard this discussion on numerous radio and TV progams) or stature. I have heard people compare dogfighting to hunting, and I've even heard people discount dogfighting as JUST dogfighting*cough*Clinton Portis*cough* (If other NFL players are involved in it......his statement weakened his denial

This is a VERY emotional discussion or topic because it is fueled by cultural differences. I'm a 28 year old upper middle class irish white man and I've NEVER seen, been around, or even heard of dogfighting in my area. Of course I knew of the rumored pitbull fights elsewhere and how they got their reputation as "killer dogs"....but thats it. In some neighborhoods dogfighting is a means of stature and earning respect.......but what it all comes down to is the MONEY. Everything revolves around the almighty dollar, and thats the one thing thats consistant throughout the various cultures within this country.

I have never and will never condone dogfighting. Its a dispicable, inhumane and disgusting disregard for life. Forcing and training an animal to fight and kill for the only right it has.....to survive. I dont care who you are, or where you come from....thats no excuse and it doesnt lessen the seriousness of it.

Guilty or not, its clear Michael Vick is involved with, or at least has relationships with individuals who participate in the breeding, fighting, puchasing and execution of dogs. What is it with these professional athletes that just can't seem to grow up and disconnect themselves from individuals who will only bring them down ??_________________

TMX Cowboy wrote:

Although Tom Brady is a great quarterback, I think he is overrated this year because his receivers make him look better than he is.

You have officaly grasped for more straws than workers at Friendly's
(Assist over to Bill Simmons)

Nothing really left to say in this thread after Night Angels(Great post)

I just got one quick question,

Lets say for example, that a highschool kids parents go out of town. That kid then has a party. Someone at the party drinkis to much, then drives home, gets in a crash. The parents of the house( who were unaware of what was going on,) can still be held accountable.

So at the very least, even if Vick had no knowledge( ) is he at least guilty of being the owner of a house were illegal activity took place ?

After all the posts that I've responded to about this issue I think I'm going to have to have a certain standard for the posts I reply to. You have got to come with something better than this. Some people have come with some valid well thought out responses and I can get down with that but I don't think there is a reason for me to respond to regurgitated inquiries that I have already chewed on and made whatever point I needed to make. I'm not real big on repeating myself.

I will however repeat this one thing, it seems that some people aren't getting this. I don't think that Mike Vick is innocent! I am simply not convinced of his guilt. I don't know how many different ways I have to say this but as of right now Vick has not done anything wrong in my eyes because I am simply not sold on the evidence they have reported. Does that mean Vick didn't do anything? No, it simply means I don't know whether he did or didn't. Please stop saying that I am fighting for Vicks innocense cause I am not._________________

In reference to the Manning vs Brady debate
Hilit wrote: I think this is the argument you have to be involved in when youre in purgatory.

I dont know if anybody has mentioned this but Peter King has said on SI.com that the Falcons announced they will make a decision regarding how to punish Vick by Tuesday (tomorrow). According to PFT they have 2 possible options: cut him or suspend him for 4 games. The obvious scenario is to suspend him, and then Goodell will probably suspend him for the remaining 12 games somewhere down the line._________________http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4032056&sid=46043bada13909aa3b3823c562cb2514#4032056 CLICK THE LINK FOR MY LATEST MOCK DRAFT