Sunday, October 4, 2009

Single-window mode progress report

When the news of the introduction of a single-window mode in GIMP 2.8 hit the net it became clear what an incredible desire for something like this there was. The reactions have been overwhelmingly positive, and this really helps to motivate you to hack on it. The news also revealed an interesting but previously rather anonymous group of people: multi-window zealots despising the idea of a single-window mode in their beloved multi-window application. I suspect they don't realize that single-window mode is going to be optional...

I am happy to tell that the implementation of the single-window mode is progressing well. I have refactored the code to allow docks to be put inside an image window and Michael Natterer have refactored the code to allow many images to be shown in a single image window. The code is already combined and pushed to git master and you can get a very good feeling for how awesome the single-window mode is going to be by trying out the current code. Above is a screenshot of a live GIMP built from git master with 'Windows→Single-window mode' enabled. You can see the toolbox and dockable dialogs docked to the image window and the tabs for images in the image window at the top. Still a lot of things left to do though.

110 Comments:

I just tried the single-window mode, using the git master. I observed that once you try it, coming back to good old multi-window mode (of which I'm a zealot) is a pain. The window image does not come back to its original size, and more important, the multi-dialog windows do not come back! Since they no longer appear in the Image -> Windows menu, you have to rebuild them by hand. Please make switching from one mode to the other as simple as possible!

Finally! When I'm working, I can easily have as many as 20 to 30 images open at a time (small stuff, icons, web images, etc.). With the current interface, I end up wasting huge amounts of time just trying to find the correct floating window. This change is long overdue and very welcome. Thank you to whoever came to their senses and decided to implement this.

Hi, I'm not a user of gimp, but I'll used it if there's a change to follow the interface of Photodraw that was discontinued by Microsoft. It's a lot more comprensive and unless learning curve.Obviously, it seems to go backwards but sometime to go forward is the best way.

Martin, just a personal thank you for taking the time to work on such an outstanding piece of software. GIMP is only as good as the people who code it, and this is just one example of how great it really is. Congratulations on a job well done, and I look forward to seeing 2.8 when it comes out.

> it became clear what an incredible desire for> something like this there was

This has been one of the most requested features for years and we kept getting denied, and now that it's happening it's a surprise that people wanted this?

> previously rather anonymous group of people:> multi-window zealots

I am pretty sure that the supporters of non-single-window were well known and heard, I am not sure how they can be considered anonymous.

I remember asking at one point if there was anything that could be done with a window manager to keep the apps all tied together, for minimizing etc, even if they were technically separate windows. I was berated within the IRC channel for even asking the question, being told that 'the Unix philosophy is one app for every purpose that does its job well' (or something along these lines). When I pointed out that window management or single/separate windows was totally unrelated to that 'single purpose app' I was kicked out of the channel.

I am excited for this change in the Gimp. Now, as others have suggested, is a name change in order to help the level of professionalism with this application?

Sounds like a fair solution - single window mode being optional. I think for new users defaulting to single window mode would be much less confusing. They would be more inclined to give the program a chance and see how powerful it is. The user base would grow substantially. But maybe by the time 3.0 rolls around people will see how much better single window is, and this can be accomplished. I've been using Gimp for years and always hated the many windows. It's absolutely the only program I use that works this way, and there's a reason no one else does it.

I would like to know whether there will be an option to have a full-screen option like in Photoshop.This enables an user to concentrate on what is doing.

For instance: you open your picture; you press a shortcut in order to visualize only your picture (e.g. F11 like in Firefox or many other softwares);you work on your picture (e.g. with the clone tool);when you are done you press F11 again in order to have your menu back.

Hmm ... great! And it is even better that it will be optional. For example, at my work, I will most certainly keep the multi-windows format so i can spread Gimp over multiple screens. At home I have only one monitor, so a single-window version would be better.

Of course, people wishing to comment about this feature are enthusiastically in favor of it. Just to give another point of view, I still cannot understand why a single-window interface is considered by so many people as the only way to go.

My current daily workflow is the following: I'm writing a book with a lot of illustrations. Thus on one of my virtual screens I have a window with my favorite text editor (Emacs), and besides it I have the current illustration I'm working on. For many of these illustrations I have several views of them, for as many others I need to look at several illustrations at the same time.

Generally the only GIMP windows I have on the screen are the image windows. The Toolbox and the other dockable dialogs are hidden by the TAB key, and come back in front when I have to change some tool options. Yes, I use the keyboard shortcuts as frequently as possible, and also the various menus accessed from an image window, using the menu bar or a right-click, it depends.

I gave a try at the one-window interface, just to see, and was amazed. Either it takes a lot of room on my screen and I cannot see my Emacs window, or I have to remove all these additional sub-windows that clutter the screen, and I'm back to a simple image window... except I cannot have several at the same time! Thus this new interface is completely useless for me, and if it was the only one it would be a very strong reason for me to completely abandon using GIMP.

Is my workflow so different? Am I the only one in the world to work this way? I'm still completely baffled by the lack of positive arguments given by proponents of the one-window interface. My impression is that it is only because Photoshop works this way. For me, this is completely irrelevant.

Please don't flame me, but give me some actual, objective reasons for wanting so much this one-window interface. I would like to understand.

> My impression is that users wish that only because Photoshop works this way. For me, this is completely irrelevant.

Well, you are probably right :-)Most "serious" or, at least, let's say, professional photographers, work with Photoshop. Consequently, when they switch softwares they expect something similar...

Besides, Windows's users (not Linux users) are used to have softwares with a single big window.Most computers users work on Windows (at least 90% to say the least). Instead, most professional photographers work on Mac.Now it is a bit different, but in the recent past, it was really difficult to find someone "serious" who worked on Linux (I am referring only to photography, of course).

This being said, for me having only one windows is a big improvement. When I work with a picture the size of my display is never enough...I don't need to have windows all over...

With Gimp 2.8 everybody will be happy because the two options will be present and selectable.

As a side note, I suppose many people, who want "multi-windows", protest without knowing in the least Photoshop.With Photoshop you CAN use and work on MORE displays at the same time even though Photoshop comes with a single window.For instance, you use display A for your picture and display B for your menu (layers, channels and so on).

Why people prefer single-window over multi-window or vice versa is highly subjective.

Personally, what I don't like about multi-window is the need to manage windows. With "manage windows" I include toggling with the tab key and having GIMP in a separate workspace. I don't want to manage windows and I don't want overlapping windows. Thus, single-window mode is what I will use.

FWIW, I've never used Photoshop (except very briefly on other people's computers) and have learned most of what I know about image editing through GIMP. But I've never liked the multi-window interface and eagerly look forward to GIMP 2.8.

This is great but when are we going to get 16-bit precision, CMYK/Pantone support, non-destructive filters? The fact that it took 13 years to get this feature, despite so many people wanting it, doesn't bode well for more advanced options that any professional needs. The name "GIMP" is perfectly fitting for a tool that is always gimped-looking compared to the competition.

I'm not sure whether it's Ubuntu's or Gimp's fault, but it's REALLY annoying (and so obviously dumb that I never bothered to file any bugs) that multi-window toolboxes are always above the image windows and can't be minimized... particularly when new images like to open mostly underneath them.

It was so painful, I effectively just quit doing anything that requires Gimp.

Personally, I like to keep some applications maximized, and to alt-tab between them. It's a terrible hassle when trying to alt-tab into GIMP and only getting *part* of the application. The multi-window folks can do whatever they like, but for me, single-window is a clear win.

Independently of comments which simply say their strong approval of this feature without any real explanation, I'm amazed to see the number of people who simply don't know how to get rid of the toolbox and other other dockable dialogs in the current GIMP multi-window interface. Do they ever look at the documentation?

For their information, the TAB key is a very handy toggle for just this: press it, and your only GIMP window on the screen is the image window. And moreover, if you are working on several images at the same time, the only windows on the screen are the image windows. Press TAB again, and the toolbox and other dialogs come back. Is there a simpler way to manage windows?

@Anonymous:"For their information, the TAB key is a very handy toggle for just this...."

Sorry to say, but this feature is too problematic. The reason I can't stand using it is because window focus is lost too easily. For example, if you press tab to get the toolboxes, and move your mouse over one of them - before even pressing any button - the tab will no longer work to wisk them away.It shouldn't be needed to say, but what if you're just confirming a setting? What if you you do make a tool change but the work needs to be done under the toolbox and you can't click in the main window to reaquire it without a 'dummy' click first?And with any new image opened after the first, comes the unbelievable annoyance of resizing the new image manually to fill the space between your toolboxes. You could maximize each one, but then the fussy tab controls come into play. Besides I use my tools way too often to ever, ever, have them hidden.So I for one am ecstatic for the new single-window mode and will switch immediately from multi (GIMP is the only program I've ever used that behaves this way) but am glad that it's an option so that those who need multi won't be made to suffer just so I can finally be comfortable!

Seriously, I'll be on single window mode like a shot. That said, what would get multi window mode somewhere near usable would be if any time a Gimp image window had focus, the toolbar was raised above other applications. I don't mind multi-windows, but always having to dig below other windows for your tools / layers etc. was a pain.

+1 For showing new users single window mode first with multi in an "Advanced window management" optional mode.

Great! Just one suggestion from the ergonomic point of view: I would place the toolbox to the right side of the window, too. Otherwise you will have to move the mouse repeatedly from the left to the right border when you select a tool and change the tool options. Especially on widescreen displays this is quite a distance.

How do I make use of this single window feature?I've compiled Gimp 2.7.0 on my own running on Ubuntu 9.10 Beta. The application launches in usual multi window mode. There is no menu entry for switching in single window mode. As far as I understand, the new entry should show up within the "windows" menu. All I can find there are four entries about docked windows, closed dock windows and a list of the two currently open docking windows. Do I need to compile with a special switch or do I need to run Gimp with a special parameter to make use of single window mode?

Single window is a must have, especially with wide screens, but for 4:3 screens perhaps the right side should be a retractable panel XFCE style.Then perhaps a easy way to choose between work-flow setups like drawing, painting, cartooning or photogging, groups of tools and settings and scripts.Gimp folks are sooooooooooo cool!!

no idea if this is already planned: please keep the "tab" key active in single window mode. Pressing it should show/hide all the toolbars and menus, and leave only the image at the same zoom level.Thank you!

Great, I really like the way it is done, a lot of new ideas and ways to work with the images. Some of the features are really neat also for multiple windows.

Ill prefer multiple windows and feel it is up to the window manager to handle it and not each application. But I guess many people are using less competent window managers like windows and then single window is great.

Thank you so much. Finally this madness is over. You can't be serious though when you state "it became clear what an incredible desire for something like this there was". We all know how many people wanted this. And we all know very well why it wasn't implemented for years anyway. Because of extremely fanatic zealots who just didn't want to accept the fact that some people worked differently then they did. They didn't even want to provide an option for this. I'm still astonished that they let you implement this. Perhaps some people responsible for this mess have in the mean time left the ship. I'm using GIMP for years now despite all these confusing mini windows cluttering my desktop. I've followed all recommendations from the zealots. Using a second desktop space only for gimp etc etc. Nobody could ever explain why GIMP should be the only application that needed an extra desktop, a special window manager etc to be usable. Oh well, nevermind. Now I hope this isn't just a dream and this is finally coming to an end. Thanks for finally bringing some sanity back to GIMP.

I consider this step, as the first one, to make the GIMP a seriously considered tool by professionals. Thank you!P.S. I've been using GIMP for several years now (maybe not as extensively like some, but still), and apart from all manuals I've read about how to make multi-window GIMP work, I couldn't use it comfortably.

I just built gimp-git package from Arch Linux's AUR (GIMP now reports as 2.7.1), and I must bring the sad news that the single-window mode doesn't work here at all :(((((

Enabling the option under the Windows menu has absolutely no effect. Ctrl+B still makes the toolbox appear in a separate window, and Ctrl+L still makes the layers/channels dock appear in a separate window. I can see no obvious interface to "tell" these windows to dock themselves into the main window.

Just wondering that the UI looks very "hardcoded"/inflexible in the screenshot. Will it be possible to arrange the single menus free where ever you want in single-window mode, too?Means best from both worlds(single/multi) like Photoshop has been doing it for many years.It is maybe more flexible in reality and only my wrong impression from the screenshot.

"Please don't flame me, but give me some actual, objective reasons for wanting so much this one-window interface. I would like to understand."

While I understand your sentiment, please consider that Gimp is a Unix-program at heart. The paradigm on Unix is to use a document window, on combination with a set of "tool windows". On Unix, especially when using virtual desktops or even multiple monitors, this is fine, but when working with one monitor and one desktop, this does not work well.

Windows uses a different paradigm, that is more suited for a one desktop, one monitor approach. On there, users are used to a program window that houses all the tools, and into which an image window resides. You may be used to switching from desktop to desktop to see several multi-window programs. We on Windows are used to switch from program to program using shortkeys or the taskbar, and switching from image to image inside the program.

It's just a different way of working, and both work well, when you are used to one or the other. I use both paradigms; the document+tool winodw one on Unix, the program window+documents on Windows, and I don't have a problem with any one of them, though I prefer the Windows single-window one.

But, it is EXTREMELY frustrating to mix both paradigms. That just does not work well. Therefore I am very happy that a single-window paradigm is finally coming to Gimp.

I notice that the multi-window stuff works better now since the non-image window ones are marked as utility windows and stay on top, don't show in the task switchers, minimize/raise with the main window etc.

Also @silvio most X window managers have an option to allow you to make any app full screen, so at least on Linux there is no need to include this as a feature in the GIMP :P

Overwise YES GIMP 2.7.1 is already excellent! I'm working with it and also with Photoshop and the real drawback of GIMP vs his commercial competitor is still the text edition. When you transform text with Gimp it becomes a bitmap layer when it's still a text layer in Photoshop. And it's really a lot a time lost in production environnement.

I hope that Gimp 2.8 will fixe these most important troubles... according to me :)

Just tried Single User mode for the first time after hoping for that for several years. Good start, but I'm having a couple of issues.

First off, Single User Mode DOES NOT STICK!! Every time I open a new file it opens in the traditional multi-window mode. If a person wants single user mode, and sets it to use it, I would think it would be logical to set it to stay that way till it is changed again by the user.

Second one is the way tools are docked to the single window. It appears that if you have a tool dock open at the time you change to Single-window mode it will be combined. However, there doesn't seem to be a way to arrange where the docks are put, nor can I see a way to set it up so you can rearrange the docks that are pinned to the window.

And entering text in the window is awesome!!

Again, thanks again for the good start and look forward to upcoming improvements in the future.

Just built 2.7.1 for Ubuntu Lucid on my Asus EEE, which has 1024x600 screen size. First build attempt did not launch after install, apparently because the default /usr/local/bin install used incorrect absolute paths that expeced the main binary to be in /usr/bin instead. So I re-configured using the relative path option, re-compiled, and all went well.

The catch: Using 2.6.x, I can place a single window that includes tools at the top, with enough room at the bottom for tabbed dialogs such as tool options and layers. That allows a lot of space for a single image window. But using 2.7.1, I cannot figure out how to get the tools and the other dialogs into the same window. This is important for a small screen.

Also, the use of the new Text feature is not at all intuitive. I wonder if it is even functional.

The single-window mode has a bad habit of resizing itself when an existing image is loaded. I assume this is transient behavior that will be fixed by final release. For now, merely resizing the window does the trick.

Love the single window in 2.7.1. Many issues remain to be be fixed, but it is a blessing to use even now. The tabs with photos at the top are a great way to switch photos. I really thing many folks who say they like the old UI will change over when they find how much easier it is to have all the stuff in one window and not click on the wrong window and loose a panel and have to find it over and over again.

You can set a keyboard shortcut to toggle between single- and multi-window modes by going to Edit-Preferences-Interface-Configure Keyboard Shortcuts. Type in "single", then double-click single window mode to set the shortcut. I used "Shift+Ctrl+M" and it's working pretty well.

Please! dont more waste time & brain to make "somethingshop" interface !!!As user is "old" gimp interface for me best, and it's a pain when I must work with "somethingshop"... But those who are happy don't claim !!!Waiting on 16 bit, waiting on mesh-transform, waiting on ... but not on docks, gadgets, titlebars, toolbars, winebars, beerbars, intrusive objects! My interest: the image I am making.

Thanks for your workif .... if there was anything that could be done with a window manager to keep the apps all tied together, for minimizing etc, even if they were technically separate windows. or float transparent tool box or if touch edge box appears.Thanks A LOT