You mean America discovering the lesbians weren't man hating monsters who wanted to bathe in the blood of virgins and convert their daughters to their wicked ways was a positive influence?

I, for one, am shocked.

Here's the thing: you know what homosexuals want? To have a life. To find someone they want to be with. To have a decent career. To be with friends and family. Maybe raise a dog. Join an amateur league. Bake some pies. Laugh. Goof off. Maybe even raise some kids one day. Maybe not. They want the exact same things you want. Including occasionally going to some risque club for some naughty dancing and get silly with their friends. To even maybe attend their local church. Maybe even join Rotary. Wash their cars on Sunday. Walk the dogs maybe in the park. Smooch their sweeties and canoodle at the point. They want the same damn things as everyone else. The only difference is that some folks get themselves all in a tizzy because they are "different."

Ellen showed folks that lesbians weren't scary or domineering or plotting to take over the world. Cripes, look at her wardrobe, does THAT look like anyone even a quarter as intimidating as say Martha Stewart? She came out, and folks realized, "Hey, she's pretty normal, and kinda funny and self deprecating, and her girlfriend is cute, and they seem happy." And that's pretty much what homosexuals want: to be normal. Nothing more. No special rights. Nothing more than to be normal. Just live their lives, and maybe have some laughs and some drinks, and point at the shenanigans of some folks who they think are funny, and to pick up friends when they fall down, and cuddle up with their sweetie, or have some hot monkey lovin' in the afternoon, but just like everyone else.

revrendjim:She really did a good deed by putting herself out there. It took guts back then and I respect her for that. Now when someone comes out it's like "so?" but when she did it was still a big deal.

Indeed. She was one of the first famous people who came out and kept their career. I remember when it happened - I had been out for some time, and had dealt with some really heavy shiat because of it. People liked Ellen, and when she came out, it demonstrated to middle America that someone they liked could be gay, and therefore it was okay to like gay folks.

Not to minimize the brave people who were out pre-Stonewall, or before the Regan years, or even in my generation - but Ellen and Will & Grace (yeah, I know, but seriously) did the most good work for gay rights in popular culture. For the first time, we were okay.

Benevolent Misanthrope:Not to minimize the brave people who were out pre-Stonewall, or before the Regan years, or even in my generation

Well of course not... without them forcing people to acknowledge gays really existed, it would be hard for anyone to "come out", let alone a celebrity.

Frankly, as a privileged straight guy with an anti-authoritarian streak, the story of Stonewall is one that I just LOVE: people viewed as a sad joke at best by society stood up and said "I will not be shiat on any more!". And the world became a slightly better place for everyone, including me.

HotWingAgenda:My big takeaway from this thread is the reminders of just how many successful openly gay and lesbian entertainers there were before Ellen. And sadness at what could have been, for Freddie Mercury and Queen, if the world had been less hostile back in his time.

Maybe then more people would know the awesomeness that was Klaus Nomi.

More accepting? Sure. Accepted, absolutely not. I could go on and on with sob stories, both my own and others, but the truth is, a lot of people really thrive on making life miserable for others and treating random folks like trash in the gutter. Not all homosexuals live in the gay paradises you see on TV, most of us are not wealthy enough to "earn" the acceptance that celebrities have access to. Not all of us have the means to move out of the towns and neighborhoods filled with prejudiced bigots, or the opportunities to change jobs just because of the uncomfortable work environment filled with offensive gay "jokes" and harassment concerning sexual orientation.

Atomic Spunk:I seem to remember Elton John coming out long before then, and people still loved him and his music. He didn't really suffer any backlash from coming out. Then again, I was quite young, so maybe I wasn't aware.

There's a weird dichotomy among the entertainment arts. Theater people are all assumed to be gay and promiscuous, no exceptions. Movie stars are expected to be as straight as an arrow. Musicians are allowed to be bisexual or just Hedonists (and thanks to Freddie Mercury, didn't even have to be a fairy). Stand-up comedy is still pretty masculine so straightness is still a plus, though Ellen and Margaret Cho kind of broke both down, whatever you think of their acts.

I was 17 and from what I recall, the big deal wasn't so much that she came out but that she used her show as a vehicle for it (somewhat, wiki says she was on Oprah first talking about it) - and the biggest deal was really how the network treated it as 'adult' material with a warning before the episode and everything. It was pretty pathetic on their part, in my opinion.

Everything progressive or liberal or novel in America has to start at the bottom and bubble its way up through the bossy kindergarten kids who tell their parents what's right and wrong, the urban youth tribes, cartoonists, municipalities and counties, then progressive States, starting in Calfornia or New York or somewhere. Then it gets to the State legislature level and eventually the Republicans in Congress cave and start picking on the next minority on their list of hated minorities, or somebody makes a new kid's cartoon or toy and they go crazy abou commies and preverts making kid's cartoons or toys to corrupt young minds.

I hate to think, though, who's on that list after homosexuals. Shudder. It must be a minority so universally loathed that even liberals make jokes about them with impunity. Appalachians? Lavians? Or maybe the Government is finally ready to admit that they've been selling people as snack food to the purple people eaters from Zeta ridiculous in the Gramschean Quadrant.

Then we'll see real prejudice as the aliens start the long climb from driving cabs to being everyday people.

Yep. That's probably it. They're going to unleash the aliens on us like in the movie MIB IV.

Benevolent Misanthrope:revrendjim: She really did a good deed by putting herself out there. It took guts back then and I respect her for that. Now when someone comes out it's like "so?" but when she did it was still a big deal.

Indeed. She was one of the first famous people who came out and kept their career. I remember when it happened - I had been out for some time, and had dealt with some really heavy shiat because of it. People liked Ellen, and when she came out, it demonstrated to middle America that someone they liked could be gay, and therefore it was okay to like gay folks.

Not to minimize the brave people who were out pre-Stonewall, or before the Regan years, or even in my generation - but Ellen and Will & Grace (yeah, I know, but seriously) did the most good work for gay rights in popular culture. For the first time, we were okay.

I'd love to meet Ellen. Just to say thanks.

I would probably give that show more credit than damn near anything. I would also put "queer eye" high on that list as well.

I like Ellen. I think she's a delight. Particularly when she shamed the Jersey Shore people by asking them basic questions about American History and then let them fall in a dark hole when they inevitably got the answers wrong.

You know how I found out Ellen was a Lesbian? I was watching a show on Old Comedy Central. (It might have still been "HA!") And they had these "comedy videos" shows that were just 1 or 2 minute clips of stand ups. Anyway they had a clip back from 1981 where Ellen went on stage and said, "Hi, I'm Ellen deGeneres, Lesbian Comedian."

O... K... I'm fine with this.

You have to understand this was at the height of Elle's surge as a stand up with multiple specials under her belt and people fishing for sit-com roles for her. Comedy Central just OUTED her right at the moment she was peaking. And it was done just as one of dozens of clips. Just because they liked to show really early clips of famous comics.

Ellen deGeneres didn't come out of the closet in 1997. She came out of the closet in 1981. Then had to go BACK IN the closet. Managers and Hollywood douches told her to "Ixnay on the Esbianlay" if you want to have a career.

And when I saw that clip I was already a big fan. I saw her stuff. I heard the BOYFRIEND jokes. I mean how humiliating. I mean all your friends and family know and you've got to lie about who you are just to PASS???

I mean one of the keys to great stand-up is that you have to be completely HONEST. How's she supposed to be an effective performer when she has to LIE to everyone every night? Until the joke ran so thin it was ridiculous.

Benevolent Misanthrope:MrEricSir: I never got the whole "gays are gross!" argument. First of all, are lesbians gross, or just men?

Well, that depends. Are they Hustler lesbians; cute, only-during-college lesbians; or real, not particularly attractive lesbians?

If you walk out your front door right now, you'll probably find all kinds of people, gay or straight, who you wouldn't choose to watch in the act of sexual congress.

The fact some people fail to recognize is that lesbian women cover the exact same range of physical comeliness as any other segment of the population. They just tend to do it in more comfortable shoes.

You're missing the point, Average. Public consensus has not swung dramatically in the past couple decades (only) because old bigots died and fresh new liberals graduated from high school. A surprisingly large portion of that is because many people who had previously been opposed to gay rights actually changed their minds. Reasons for this perspective shift include family members, friends, and/or co-workers coming out of the closet, the political framing of the debate shifting from issues of morality to personal freedom, and yes, positive examples in popular culture.

Sure, you can condemn certain people for not ALWAYS being on the right side of history, but that would make you a dick. Why would you want to be a dick?

At least, that seemed to be the turning point in my small corner of the world, from what I can remember. You really couldn't discuss one without the other for quite a while there. AIDS was a horrifying new thing, and it probably did a lot to humanize the gay community to those of us who had no connection to it otherwise. (I was a 10 year old kid living out in the desert in Utah. The endless parade of magazine photos depicting gay men dying of AIDS is about all I knew of them or their lifestyle, at the time.)

It also had a way of bringing homophobia out into the open, in a way that it could be looked at and discussed in a critical way. Stupidity like that can really only survive when nobody actually talks about it. I remember being horrified by the ugliness of what came spilling out of the mouths of people I otherwise respected.

HotWingAgenda:My big takeaway from this thread is the reminders of just how many successful openly gay and lesbian entertainers there were before Ellen. And sadness at what could have been, for Freddie Mercury and Queen, if the world had been less hostile back in his time.

For people in general, if AIDS (aka GRID) had been confronted more aggressively with federal research funds by Reagan.

I remember being amused by the shock some felt when she came out. I knew the minute I saw her she was gay. I knew by 14 my cute sister who always had guys chasing her was a lesbian. I could spot a gay man a mile away by 18 (whether you straight men realize it or not, you all do the quick up and down appraisal upon a first meeting - gay men do not) I have finely tuned gaydar. I knew Ellen was gay when she played a receptionist on a short-lived sitcom based out of a realty office way back when.

My sister had no dramatic coming out. Her loving family met her female friends and treated them graciously. We just kinda knew, and shrugged "Oh well, as long as she is happy". She didn't wake up one day and decide to be a lesbian. She is as God made her and we love her. If Ellen opens some minds and hearts through her awesome personality, right on!

My big takeaway from this thread is the reminders of just how many successful openly gay and lesbian entertainers there were before Ellen. And sadness at what could have been, for Freddie Mercury and Queen, if the world had been less hostile back in his time.

taxandspend:TrojanRabbit: Benevolent Misanthrope: revrendjim: She really did a good deed by putting herself out there. It took guts back then and I respect her for that. Now when someone comes out it's like "so?" but when she did it was still a big deal.

Indeed. She was one of the first famous people who came out and kept their career. I remember when it happened - I had been out for some time, and had dealt with some really heavy shiat because of it. People liked Ellen, and when she came out, it demonstrated to middle America that someone they liked could be gay, and therefore it was okay to like gay folks.

Not to minimize the brave people who were out pre-Stonewall, or before the Regan years, or even in my generation - but Ellen and Will & Grace (yeah, I know, but seriously) did the most good work for gay rights in popular culture. For the first time, we were okay.

I'd love to meet Ellen. Just to say thanks.

She had a lull immediately after coming out. Her sitcom only lasted another season and for a few years she was only in the spotlight as Anne Heche's girlfriend. Her talk show was a come-back. She was pretty much a has-been when that show started.

Nine! It was her hosting of the Emmy's right after 9/11 that really got the ball rolling again on her career, even after her second sitcom failed.

Also, everybody forgets now but her sitcom was on the downswing already when she came out, and the writing never really found its footing again after she came out. The writers didn't really know what to do as far as story lines involving an out primetime character and it stopped being funny.

I hate to think, though, who's on that list after homosexuals. Shudder. It must be a minority so universally loathed that even liberals make jokes about them with impunity. Appalachians? Lavians? Or maybe the Government is finally ready to admit that they've been selling people as snack food to the purple people eaters from Zeta ridiculous in the Gramschean Quadrant

If these things are cyclical then maybe we'll go back to hating the Irish.

Atomic Spunk:I seem to remember Elton John coming out long before then, and people still loved him and his music. He didn't really suffer any backlash from coming out. Then again, I was quite young, so maybe I wasn't aware.

Benevolent Misanthrope:revrendjim: She really did a good deed by putting herself out there. It took guts back then and I respect her for that. Now when someone comes out it's like "so?" but when she did it was still a big deal.

Indeed. She was one of the first famous people who came out and kept their career. I remember when it happened - I had been out for some time, and had dealt with some really heavy shiat because of it. People liked Ellen, and when she came out, it demonstrated to middle America that someone they liked could be gay, and therefore it was okay to like gay folks.

Not to minimize the brave people who were out pre-Stonewall, or before the Regan years, or even in my generation - but Ellen and Will & Grace (yeah, I know, but seriously) did the most good work for gay rights in popular culture. For the first time, we were okay.

Ryan, I don't ramble anymore. Although I do like that song Ramblin' Man by the Allman Brothers. At first I thought they were the Almond Brothers, which is great, since I like nuts, except for filberts, which is odd because I love Dilbert, because when you spend all day in a cubicle, you just gotta dance!