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My worldview is pretty materialistic but I said maybe. Carl Saganpointed this theory out to me- If this universe is oscillating, that is after expanding it collapses unto itself to exapand again ad infinitum, than in those infinite universes, ones will arise that contain you. Therefore, reincarnation could be completely possible by our current knowledge of science.

--------------------"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I put "maybe" because I believe in something sort of like reincarnation but also somewhat like heaven or Nirvana. I believe that we have a consciousness which is not dependent on our life functions to survive. In other words, that while it controls the brain, it is not the brain, and that when the brain dies, it does not. I believe that our individual's consciousness is connected to a greater consciousness, and that when we die, that consciousness goes back to the greater whole of which it is a part. This greater consciousness, which we could call the Atman, the Tao, or god-self, whichever you prefer, then branches out again to control another brain when a new live is born, but it's not as if this new life has an exact lineage of lives it has lived. Rather, it is connected to all things, living and non-living, material and immaterial, past, present, and future.

I don't like the idea though. Even if it were true, I have no memory of my past lives so they don't mean anything to me, just as this life will mean nothing to me in my next life.

To me, for reincarnation to be meaningful, there has to be something in my next life that reminds me of this life.

I think it's a form of control, where the authorities justify their position believing they slugged it out in their past lives, while the poor people are kept where they are as they believe things will be better in their next life.

I refuse to participate, as the poll is not relevant and pushes things into the wrong direction. It seems to me that belief is just a natural adaption to your sensory input. I used not to believe in reincarnation. Then I read a lot of books about Buddhism, and now I believe in reincarnation. So what?

The critical thing to do is to develop an actual interest in truth, which means that you must be happy with testing your beliefs against reality, and if reality chooses to blow them apart, you must be happy with that, too.

Here's a stupid example. I try to develop a deep state of meditation where I can actually remember my past lifes. But if that happens, no matter how real or convincing these memories may seem, I will test them against reality. I will pick one life in the realm of human history, write down the historical facts, and check out what science tells us about the period.

So, what's my point? Test it, baby. If you think you can levitate, do it in public at least once, not just behind closed walls. If aliens approach you, ask them for a ride to their home planet. It's your human right, you know - the universe is full of frauds.

If God talks to you, demand a miracle.

This should be common sense, really. Even Terence McKenna, who used to associate with self-dribbling basketball machine elves, recognized this:

"It is no great accomplishment to hear a voice in the head. The accomplishment is to make sure it is telling the truth, because the demons are of many kinds: "Some are made of ions, some of mind; the ones of ketamine, you'll find, stutter often and are blind." The reaction to these voices is not to kneel in genuflection before a god, because then one will be like Dorothy in her first encounter with Oz. There is no dignity in the universe unless we meet these things on our feet, and that means having an I/Thou relationship. One say to the Other: 'You say you are omniscient, omnipresent, or you say you are from Zeta Reticuli. You're long on talk, but what can you show me?' "

Belief is always mundane, a thing of the world. The ego delights in it. Spirituality means that you develop a higher thought structure; it is a simple mental move of transcendence. A spiritual move always goes upwards, never sideways. You have to recognize a magical thought when you see one.

I will admit to being the one(so far) dissenting vote and i would like to qualify that: I don't say no as an absolute no. My understanding is that it MAY have been in the Bible originally(according to the posts i've read here it was)but: It ain't there now, and after God immersing me in Hell for 10 minutes back in 74 just so i could experience how horrible it was, i'm just not willing to take that chance that the concept of reincarnation has any veracity. I didn't really mean no as a tautology in other words

--------------------"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"

I've been holding back on this, because I don't want you to think I'm attacking the basis of your beliefs. Please know I am not trying to do that. I feel that you've come to know my stance well enough to realize I am not one to do that.

Now then:

If you, as a Christian, believe that "hell" is the place that you go to when you die if you've failed to accept Christ, then how is it possible that you experienced "hell" without dying??

Furthermore, if you intend to suggest that it is possible to experience hell without leaving this spiritual plane--have you ever considered the connection this sentiment forms with the stance that hell ONLY exists on this plane?

I believe that the biblical "hell" was originally meant to represent living--THIS LIFE--while seperate from god.

Subsequently, I believe that the biblical "heaven" was originally meant to represent living--again, THIS LIFE--while in union with god.

This means that (to me, personally) heaven and hell have NOTHING to do with what happens to us after death.

Any thoughts on the connection between this and the fact that you somehow managed to experience hell without death??

I've been holding back on this, because I don't want you to think I'm attacking the basis of your beliefs. Please know I am not trying to do that. I feel that you've come to know my stance well enough to realize I am not one to do that.

Now then:

If you, as a Christian, believe that "hell" is the place that you go to when you die if you've failed to accept Christ, then how is it possible that you experienced "hell" without dying??

At the risk of being very redundant here, my focus is on God and the Kingdom of Heaven and not the other place. As for how i was able to experience it without physically dying was through the Grace of God, even though i was an atheist at the time

According to God, he showed and let me experience hell for 10 minutes in THIS life in order that i not experience it forever in the next. To use his exact words to me: "Better to experience a living hell on earth than an eternal one after"

Furthermore, if you intend to suggest that it is possible to experience hell without leaving this spiritual plane--have you ever considered the connection this sentiment forms with the stance that hell ONLY exists on this plane?

Well it's definately possible,(as is all else through the grace of God) but again i really WOULD like my focus to be on God's Love and on Jesus and not dwell on the bad stuff. I guess my only problem with your above statement Jacques is that you seem to be taking it for granted that there ARE even other planes of existence. I'm not saying there aren't but at the same time i can't say that there are, for sure. Sort of like my stance on reincarnation

I believe that the biblical "hell" was originally meant to represent living--THIS LIFE--while seperate from god.

That's a good interpretation, i guess all i might add to it is: Living THIS life is only hell when living it estranged/separate from God due to not living according to his will as put forth in the Bible

Subsequently, I believe that the biblical "heaven" was originally meant to represent living--again, THIS LIFE--while in union with god.

This means that (to me, personally) heaven and hell have NOTHING to do with what happens to us after death.

I can follow your reasoning although due to my "religion"(i hate to use that word)I obviously can't agree but have no intention of arguing against your position

Any thoughts on the connection between this and the fact that you somehow managed to experience hell without death??

I think i already answered this question above, i didn't really do this as systematically as i could have, hopefully it will all come out ok when i post it

Hey man, i think you're a cool guy and i fully realize you aren't attacking me so no worries

--------------------"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"

There's one Pali Sutta where a monk approaches the Buddha and asks whether there is any way to describe hell. The Buddha replies that, no, it is impossible to describe hell. Then the monk asks if, then, it is at least possible to describe hell by means of a simile (bad mistake). This really sets the Buddha off, and he continues with a several pages long exposition of the worst kind of physical torture. Since this is probably the earliest description of hell in such terms, it might have even given the inspiration for the christian idea of hell. However, in the Pali, it is clear that the Buddha gives a simile - that, in reality, hell has nothing to do with actual physical torture.

I guess everyone who ever had a really bad trip knows what hell looks like. Ten minutes are more than enough to "get it". And in fact, there is no way to describe that state of mind - alluding to physical torture is probably the closest one can get to. The problem is that the idea of physical torture triggers some very nasty low-level survival instincts, so I think it is a very bad simile and should be abandonend. However, I will side with FreakQlibrium in that I believe hell is not a metaphor or something. Hell is a state of consciousness - and you can experience it with or without a body.

Interesting. If you are just reading and havn't voted, already 30 people have in the 12 hours through the late night to noon it's been up. Others are curious too. What it means to anyone is for them to decided.

I can say I am suprised. I've been reading here for at least 8 months and I would've thought, based on what people have shared, the results would be

No 30%Maybe 20%Yes 50%

Was I off or what? Thats why I like polls. People will vote cuz of the anomonity who will never speak up. A lot of us probably run on way off assumptions about what individual beleifs this board is made of.

I know, we shouldn't assume, but assuming is a function of assessing with what information you have to work with. Goes to show how it pays to be well informed.

Oh well, thanks for participating. Keep the votes coming. maybe it will take a radical swing in the next few days.

I voted Maybe because we can never really prove or deny it 100% until we die. But I'm leaning No. It just doesn't seem right that after we die and go to God that we would ever want to come back to this place or be forced to do so in the flesh.

--------------------

"It seemed to me culture is a shabby lie. Or at least this culture is a shabby lie. If you work like a dog, you get 260 channels of bad television and a German automobile. What kind of perfection is that?"-McKenna

Based on my understanding McKenna, we are never forced to do any thing. Free will rules. based on m understanding we choose this experience and we can choose to sit it out for 87 trillion years after we die and then, because time is simultaneous, we can jump in another body in the year 2050 if we want.

I know alot of people hate life so much they can't beleive they would choose to experience existance with these limitations of this earth plane. growth opportunities for the soul are rich here. In heavenly realms we can dream dreams, but here we get to experince creating them as well as the richness of their tangibility with the 5 physical senses.

BTW Freak,

I am NOT religious, but I do beleive in hellish states of mind, emotion and being here in the physical AND in the afterlife. It's my understanding, we don't stay stuck in them in the afterlife. Eventually, with help, we work our way out of them there just like we do here.

I am NOT religious, but I do beleive in hellish states of mind, emotion and being here in the physical AND in the afterlife. It's my understanding, we don't stay stuck in them in the afterlife. Eventually, with help, we work our way out of them there just like we do here. [/b}

Thanks for sharing your perspective Jiggy, i'm sure i'll learn eventually lol! not to make anyone no matter what their belief(s) are feel excluded from responding to my threads/posts

--------------------"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"

The idea of hell is really not that unique. Check this out, for a quick horror walk through the religions - they all have their place where the sun don't shine, from Avici to the Shamanic Underworld. As a buddhist, I can live very well with the general concept of the "lower realms", but there are a couple of differences. For example, I don't think there's any eternal state of being. You may be stuck in hell for a long time, but one day, even hell will freeze. Most importantly, though, I believe there is just one way into hell, which is HATE, and just one way into heaven, which is LOVE - and I believe the way of LOVE is open to anyone, be they christians, muslims, buddhists, jains, jews, taoists, pagans, atheists, agnostics, or even animals. This is partly based on my understanding that psychedelics can really enable you a glimpse of the "hellish" state of consciousness. In other words, if you are in a state of mind where you don't want to gulp five grams, you certainly don't want to die in that state - because death will be a lot more psychedelic than that.

Hey, nice to see you're still around, I remember you from former times. I think it's great that you have found your faith. Best wishes, man.

I have to say from my own experience(yes i realize tht means subjective and possibly having no external reality as such)that when I was cast into hell, then taken to heaven that both states appeard/seemed to ME to be eternal hence the reason for my particular faith.man if it were up to me NO one would spend even 1 nano second in the bad place, but....it's not up to me

--------------------"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"