Credit goes to poster in this thread for finding it: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=79310

Vendico

01-06-2008, 10:41 PM

Send to CNN and drudge

Xonox

01-06-2008, 10:41 PM

Hmmm... were these both in New Hampshire? or were they in different states?

noxagol

01-06-2008, 10:41 PM

oh shiz lol

CountryRoads

01-06-2008, 10:42 PM

Busted!

corsairtro

01-06-2008, 10:42 PM

lawl

JPFromTally

01-06-2008, 10:42 PM

That guy sure is taking a long time to make up his mind!!!

hillertexas

01-06-2008, 10:43 PM

bump

Think12345

01-06-2008, 10:43 PM

This is serious, guys - let's make a big deal of it

kushaze

01-06-2008, 10:43 PM

Fox News needs to be sued.

kill the banks

01-06-2008, 10:43 PM

"neoconned"

kill the banks

hummtide

01-06-2008, 10:44 PM

Blimp!

newbitech

01-06-2008, 10:44 PM

well lets get some facts, sure a picture is worth 1000 words, but lets surround this with facts.

slamhead

01-06-2008, 10:44 PM

Hmm...wonder if they fly this same focus group around to all the states.

ronpaulfan

01-06-2008, 10:45 PM

This is serious, guys - let's make a big deal of it

+1

Post this image to Digg

Daamien

01-06-2008, 10:45 PM

That's just sad. Forward it to CNN, et al.

ronpaulfan

01-06-2008, 10:45 PM

well lets get some facts, sure a picture is worth 1000 words, but lets surround this with facts.

Fact 1: Fox caught red-handed

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 10:46 PM

http://roobaroo.net/Images/Fox_Focus_Group.jpg

Credit goes to poster in this thread for finding it: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=79310

Ok, someone write a press release of this, and send it out to the media. Thats good. This is also excellent fodder for SUING FOX for FEC violations. I'm not talking about FCC violations. NH GOP did not sponsor this event, and Fox far exceeded campaign contribution limits for this stunt.

How much I'm allowed to spend? 2,300 by the law. Someone from grassroots, please file a legal complaint for the rest of us, and issue a press release (should cost about $400 for a business wire)

constitutional

01-06-2008, 10:46 PM

+1

Post this image to Digg

Use imageshack to upload this image if anyone does.

DeafPalmdale

01-06-2008, 10:46 PM

I am not sure if I understand what is it about but can anyway please explain? Thanks.

Enzo

01-06-2008, 10:46 PM

Dirty!

olehounddog

01-06-2008, 10:46 PM

:eek: caught like a dog.:D

uncle saddam

01-06-2008, 10:46 PM

From the original discovery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rer_7TasNhQ

IT'S on MITT's youtube page...someone steal it and take out the sound of that fucker Frank!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYLVgMF9R9g&feature=related

Notice at 3:43 into the video I posted, which is from September, they have the same actor that they were talking to after this debate... Coincidence?

I think this is the axe that brings the game to an end. NH voters already know it was unfair.

A) Get this out to the media and voters.
B) Put this on Fox's NWS stock pick forums.
C) FEC suit. With the NH GOP removing their support, this wasn't an official event.

Son of Freedom

01-06-2008, 10:52 PM

Whoa, back up. We need to review the entire segments and see what the claims are as to who these people are, how they pick them, etc..

Don't get me wrong, it's a sham, no doubt, but let's put this out correctly people. Let's also lump this together with RP being left out of the forum AND Fox editing AP newslines as discussed elsewhere. Also throw in the possible police state action of that background commotion during the forum, wow.

A lawyer needs to write up an article and we will submit it from there. Slow down and do it correctly.

slamhead

01-06-2008, 10:52 PM

Could it be the lady in red in the back is the same highlighted...need a better quality vid to go off of.

I hope someone is getting this info out to NH newspapers and other press. This might influence the election.

RonPaulVolunteer

01-06-2008, 10:52 PM

I am betting that woman in white and the woman in red are the same too! Look at it!

.

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 10:52 PM

Can they get in big trouble for this?

If we the people enforce our laws.

mexicanpizza

01-06-2008, 10:52 PM

OK. Make another version. Get rid of the "FU Frank". Put the dates on both images, and preferably youtube links on them both.

It just seems a bit crazy as written.

RonPaulVolunteer

01-06-2008, 10:53 PM

Ho shit, is this 3 out of 3...

RonPaulVolunteer

01-06-2008, 10:53 PM

Yeah. time to jazz this up. This is a big freaking deal. Good job!!

.

tsetsefly

01-06-2008, 10:54 PM

hahahahaha, Contact keith olberman about this...

TN_VOL

01-06-2008, 10:54 PM

"Heeeyyy I know that guy"
Jeff Spicoli
Ridgemont High Class of '84

webber53

01-06-2008, 10:55 PM

Faux News Follies starring Frank Lutz!
They are going down Bigtime over this!

Somebody_Else

01-06-2008, 10:55 PM

Wow, just... wow. Fair and balanced all right.

RPCanadian

01-06-2008, 10:55 PM

So are you guys (Americans) at war with Eurasia or Eastasia?

I just hope we are not the Poland to your reich.

Xonox

01-06-2008, 10:56 PM

Do we have any other videos of their 'Focus group' that we could analyze?

RonPaulVolunteer

01-06-2008, 10:56 PM

Report it to CNN: http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/forms/breaking.news.html

.

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 10:57 PM

Really good new ammunition for sponsor boycott too:

Brian4Liberty
Thumbs down These were the sponsors of the Fox Forum
These sponsors had commercials during the Fox Presidential Forum. They should be made aware that they were specifically sponsoring (and paying for) a program which attempted to manipulate a US Presidential Election.

Even though I can't stand him, our best bet of getting this on TV would be Olbermann.

hillertexas

01-06-2008, 10:58 PM

Who has sent this to HQ? I don't know how.

jenninlouisiana

01-06-2008, 10:58 PM

What state was the first focus group in. I think that's the only big deal issue... otherwise, dude is just an undecided voter who loves Luntz.

robatsu

01-06-2008, 10:58 PM

Even though I can't stand him, our best bet of getting this on TV would be Olbermann.

Or Wolf Blitzer. He's been pretty friendly to Paul lately and sure seems to like sticking it to FOX.

tsetsefly

01-06-2008, 10:58 PM

Even though I can't stand him, our best bet of getting this on TV would be Olbermann.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PrismPaul

01-06-2008, 10:58 PM

Help me out. I've seen outlets use the same focus groups through the course of a campaign before. Has Fox claimed that these were different groups or different people? Where's the smoking gun here? I'm missing it.

Peppy690

01-06-2008, 10:59 PM

Oh MY GOD!!! What the fuck! all i can say is What.....The.....Fuck

angelatc

01-06-2008, 10:59 PM

Actually, I'm leaning towards Tucker.

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:00 PM

Ironically, the other candidates besides Romney would be interested in this too, since they used the focus group to promote him. They especially went after Huckabee in the focus group.

Ironic, because the other candidates were dissed by fox in a crooked focus group, after being dishonarable with fox in going on a crooked forum.

Still, send it to them. Maybe they will learn. When you lie with snakes, you get bitten.

d3ik

01-06-2008, 11:00 PM

Just emailed the links with time references and context to The Cafferty File

driller80545

01-06-2008, 11:00 PM

You can't sue a tv show for having actors

RonPaulVolunteer

01-06-2008, 11:00 PM

Help me out. I've seen outlets use the same focus groups through the course of a campaign before. Has Fox claimed that these were different groups or different people? Where's the smoking gun here? I'm missing it.

The smoking gun is that they are introduced as undecided voters as if they just pulled them off the street. Clearly they have a chosen team of people/actors.

.

juddpuds

01-06-2008, 11:01 PM

Ironically, the other candidates besides Romney would be interested in this too, since they used the focus group to promote him. They especially went after Huckabee in the focus group.

Ironic, because the other candidates were dissed by fox in a crooked focus group, after being dishonarable with fox in going on a crooked forum.

Still, send it to them. Maybe they will learn. When you lie with snakes, you get bitten.

QFT - I was about to say the same thing....we need to create a stink, even more than we have. Every non-Romney campaign ought to be pissed about this.

szczebrzeszyn

01-06-2008, 11:01 PM

What state was the first focus group in. I think that's the only big deal issue... otherwise, dude is just an undecided voter who loves Luntz.

Jenn is right, calm down people. This thing should be fact-checked first.

Yes but they are violating FCC laws by fabricating the opinion and tipping the election. (same reason why Kuccinich is suing ABC)

Either way, you'd get could press on it from other stations.

Sey.Naci

01-06-2008, 11:02 PM

Given that three people might be identified as in both focus groups, this suggests that FAUX may have hired people to go around to various debates. That in turn suggests that these people are being fed, given accommodation and possibly are getting paid. It also suggests that they aren't likely to be New Hampshire residents.

noztnac

01-06-2008, 11:03 PM

I saw another post where an "undecided" member of Fox News' focus group also had a Romney website.

Mark37snj

01-06-2008, 11:03 PM

Report it to CNN: http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/forms/breaking.news.html

.

Keith Olbermann would have a field day with this!!!!

EDIT: He HATES Faux News

Dave Pedersen

01-06-2008, 11:04 PM

What laws have been broken? Any lawyers among us who can spell it out? Surely there is fraud by "journalists" to sway the election. How does this translate into legal action?

Class action lawsuit? We the people vs. NewsCorp?

PrismPaul

01-06-2008, 11:04 PM

The smoking gun is that they are introduced as undecided voters as if they just pulled them off the street. Clearly they have a chosen team of people/actors.

.

Last election, PBS followed the SAME FOCUS GROUP of ORGINALLY UNDECIDED VOTERS through all the debates up to the election. Are you sure FOX isn't doing the same thing?

When you say "introduced as if they pulled them off the street", someone had better find the exact words on that.

I'm not doubting theres a good story here, but let's spell it out and understand it before people go off sending notes to media.

I saw another post where an "undecided" member of Fox News' focus group also had a Romney website.

yep, there were other "questionables" too, but I can't recall all of them.

kutibah

01-06-2008, 11:07 PM

Last election, PBS followed the SAME FOCUS GROUP of ORGINALLY UNDECIDED VOTERS through all the debates up to the election. Are you sure FOX isn't doing the same thing?

When you say "introduced as if they pulled them off the street", someone had better find the exact words on that.

I'm not doubting theres a good story here, but let's spell it out and understand it before people go off sending notes to media.

Yes, but they also are claiming to be NH Residents...

Eponym_mi

01-06-2008, 11:07 PM

What state was the first focus group in. I think that's the only big deal issue... otherwise, dude is just an undecided voter who loves Luntz.

Both debates and focus groups were in NH. So, yeah, Faux News could claim these are still undecided voters...but this late in the game? It was 4~5 months between debates! Are we supposed to believe these people have been living under a rock that long and haven't decided yet? Obvisously, these people already made up their minds just based on some of the comments...they were obvisouly shilling for certain candidates and sniping at the others.

dougkeenan

01-06-2008, 11:08 PM

French kisses to whoever finds his IMDb page.

Troyhand

01-06-2008, 11:08 PM

send it to Alex Jones and all the big-watched alternative media sites and well as the MSM sites. The alternative media sites will write up their own reportage to help this go viral. Also send it to all the state GOP parties including NHGOP immediately. The sponsors, the local media. Hell EVERYBODY!! lol

grizzums

01-06-2008, 11:10 PM

:eek: Wowsers...I knew there was one more reason to pop on here before calling it a night....

I wonder how these forums were introduced..."undecided voters from NH?" ...just "undecided voters?" ...etc. (I didn't read through this whole thread, so if this has already been discussed, just disregard)

hawks4ronpaul

01-06-2008, 11:12 PM

Maybe the focus groups were not months apart. Maybe Luntz already filmed the whole election last year in one sitting.

Make sure they have their SAG cards and paid their dues.

http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:13 PM

Given that three people might be identified as in both focus groups, this suggests that FAUX may have hired people to go around to various debates. That in turn suggests that these people are being fed, given accommodation and possibly are getting paid. It also suggests that they aren't likely to be New Hampshire residents.

Paying them means its an FEC violation too :)

Vendico

01-06-2008, 11:14 PM

I don't think this is a question of law, I think it's a question of ethics.

PrismPaul

01-06-2008, 11:14 PM

Someone has to youtube the introduction of these groups from the two debates. That's what's needed to demonstrate whether or not FOX mislead the public. There's no reason they can't continue to use the same undecided group or individuals as long as they didn't state or imply that they weren't.

Does anyone have the exact words FOX used to present these groups yet?

Both debates and focus groups were in NH. So, yeah, Faux News could claim these are still undecided voters...but this late in the game? It was 4~5 months between debates! Are we supposed to believe these people have been living under a rock that long and haven't decided yet? Obvisously, these people already made up their minds just based on some of the comments...they were obvisouly shilling for certain candidates and sniping at the others.

If I am not mistaken, the first focus group was in Florida not NH. Remember, the pro Rudy crowd??

jake

01-06-2008, 11:17 PM

Murdoch and Fox are going down, this should be a HUGE blow to the Neocon's and Fox

Peppy690

01-06-2008, 11:17 PM

i sent to drudge anyway

aravoth

01-06-2008, 11:17 PM

Could it be the lady in red in the back is the same highlighted...need a better quality vid to go off of.

can someone please post the Youtube links for these focus groups for me? I'm just having a lot of trouble finding them- computer is going slow on the youtube search for some reason.

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:18 PM

I saw another post where an "undecided" member of Fox News' focus group also had a Romney website.

Best guess, Romney bribed people and is trying to buy the election. Where do they ever get this candidates?

specsaregood

01-06-2008, 11:18 PM

Yes but they are violating FCC laws by fabricating the opinion and tipping the election. (same reason why Kuccinich is suing ABC)

Wrong.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbgh/fox-news.cfm
Fox news actually went to court and WON on appeal with, "The Fox appeal was largely on an argument that it is not technically illegal for a broadcaster to deliberately distort the news on television. The appellate justices reasoned that since state law provides whistleblower protection only for employees who object to misconduct which is against an "adopted law, rule, or regulation" and they decided prohibitions against news distortion are merely a "policy" of the FCC, the reporters' eight-year-old lawsuit must have been without merit from its
inception. "

matratzac

01-06-2008, 11:18 PM

so we have 3 of the same people...

someone get a picture comparing EACH one
then we can send that into CNN

3 vs 1, the 3 will look SOOOOO much worse, and even 1 is worse. But if someone could take screenshots of the 3 PEOPLE? awesome!

cheese

01-06-2008, 11:18 PM

maybe they're twins

tsetsefly

01-06-2008, 11:18 PM

If I am not mistaken, the first focus group was in Florida not NH. Remember, the pro Rudy crowd??

anyone remember this, i think you are right...

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:19 PM

Sticky this

MayTheRonBeWithYou

01-06-2008, 11:20 PM

Wait, how is this significant? So, they had the same guy back? So what? Did they claim they would not??

exformation

01-06-2008, 11:20 PM

Sticky this

^^^

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:21 PM

I THINK SOMEONE SHOULD POST THIS AT FREEREPUBLIC.COM

Yes, I know we all hate Free Republic and they hate us, but their guy, Fred Thompson was SAVAGED by the Luntz actors in the last segment. They're also known for how they exposed Dan Rather and the CBS documents. They've also been angry at Fox lately for censoring Ron Paul (even though they hate him) and Duncan Hunter (who they like) out of the debate.

Could someone with an account their post this on freerepublic.com?????

ionlyknowy

01-06-2008, 11:21 PM

Want to get this out to the press real quick?

Go to my thread that contains over 5,000 emails for news outlets all over the country.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=68221

Mark37snj

01-06-2008, 11:22 PM

Report it to CNN: http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/forms/breaking.news.html

.

email him then, i will...

I looked I couldn't find his email. :(

slamhead

01-06-2008, 11:22 PM

I need to hear how they presented these people..did they say they were from NH or what?

jd603

01-06-2008, 11:23 PM

We need to DIGG this now, is it on DIGG yet?!?!?!

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:24 PM

Yes but they are violating FCC laws by fabricating the opinion and tipping the election. (same reason why Kuccinich is suing ABC)

Wrong.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbgh/fox-news.cfm
Fox news actually went to court and WON on appeal with, "The Fox appeal was largely on an argument that it is not technically illegal for a broadcaster to deliberately distort the news on television. The appellate justices reasoned that since state law provides whistleblower protection only for employees who object to misconduct which is against an "adopted law, rule, or regulation" and they decided prohibitions against news distortion are merely a "policy" of the FCC, the reporters' eight-year-old lawsuit must have been without merit from its
inception. "

You're both wrong. That isn't why kuccinich is making a complaint for the first poster, and what will be decided isn't the issue, but that there is legal grounds for filing a complaint.

Obviously, an FCC complaint can be filed. There is also FEC violations to complain about. They should be filed. A press release should be sent. And stock holders should be warned because it may negatively impact the value of their holdings.

UtahApocalypse

01-06-2008, 11:26 PM

1) Did FOX state they were randomly picked?
2) Was this in more then one state?

Eponym_mi

01-06-2008, 11:26 PM

If I am not mistaken, the first focus group was in Florida not NH. Remember, the pro Rudy crowd??

One of the videos is from tonight. The other from the debate on Sept 5 in Durham, NH.

louisiana4liberty

01-06-2008, 11:26 PM

Find out who this actor guy is and where this guy lives. I'm not condoning violence, but someone has to at least exercise free speech on this actor.

kutibah

01-06-2008, 11:26 PM

Want to get this out to the press real quick?

Go to my thread that contains over 5,000 emails for news outlets all over the country.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=68221

Thanks!

CountryRoads

01-06-2008, 11:27 PM

1) Did FOX state they were randomly picked?
2) Was this in more then one state?

It says focus group of new hampshire voters.

jake

01-06-2008, 11:27 PM

ok, apparently this guy's name is "Chuck"

louisiana4liberty

01-06-2008, 11:28 PM

ok, apparently this guy's name is "Chuck"

"Chuck" is about to get a whole lot of attention.

sweetworld731

01-06-2008, 11:28 PM

when sending this in don't include the bottom and top banners ("FU FRANK" at the bottom, for example)...make it look more professional in-case they want to use direclty what they receive as "user submitted" or what have you.

also(!!), i would not include a mention of Ron Paul in the email. news anchors may have filters on to sort their mail, especially the mass amounts of RP-support they get, so we don't want this just tossed into the Ron Paul bin...exposing FoxNews is huge here

Airborn

01-06-2008, 11:29 PM

Wow. Good job whoever found this out.

Grandson of Liberty

01-06-2008, 11:29 PM

I don't think this is a question of law, I think it's a question of ethics.

Ding-Ding! We have a winner!

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:29 PM

"Chuck" is about to get a whole lot of attention.

Leave him alone

Mark37snj

01-06-2008, 11:29 PM

The was some list of emals!!! :eek: But I found it.

mailto:countdown@msnbc.com

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:29 PM

Someone MUST send this to freerepublic.com and other sites as well (DailyKos? They'd be over it like white on rice...)

These sites have some power to get things in the media. Anyone have accounts there to post this there?

Enzo

01-06-2008, 11:30 PM

can someone please post the Youtube links for these focus groups for me? I'm just having a lot of trouble finding them- computer is going slow on the youtube search for some reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYLVgMF9R9g&feature=related at around 3:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZenB1s2rKDI at around 1:44

Time for Change

01-06-2008, 11:30 PM

ELECTIONEERING at it's finest.
MORE evidence that Fox does not have america's best interest in mind.

Sey.Naci

01-06-2008, 11:31 PM

The Jan 6 focus group is introduced as being composed of "30 undecided registered Republican New Hampshire voters." Then the camera shifts to Frank Luntz.

homah

01-06-2008, 11:31 PM

New vid by poster rfbz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQNdj3NqXE

wildflower

01-06-2008, 11:33 PM

Someone MUST send this to freerepublic.com and other sites as well (DailyKos? They'd be over it like white on rice...)

These sites have some power to get things in the media. Anyone have accounts there to post this there?

I can post it on FR. But I want to get it straight before I post something like this.

I asked some questions on the other thread (on the same topic)

Eponym_mi

01-06-2008, 11:34 PM

This doesn't pass the smell test for me because of the time that has elapsed between the debates.

I might be a little more understanding if they were using the same people for 2 debates conducted within a few weeks of each other...or maybe a series of debates. But in this case, we have a fairly significant amount of time elapsed wherein the people in the focus group have obviously started to form opinions about candidates.

At this point, these are NOT undecided voters. Some of the slams used against certain candidates had little to do with their debate performance...example: one of the people was saying he wanted to shake Thompson to wake him up. Did anyone notice Dead Fred nodding off tonight?

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:34 PM

Ding-Ding! We have a winner!

For those of us living in the real world, we want the law that is applied to us to apply to others. The same reason you put earmarks in bills, and ask for your taxes back at the end of the year.

These are serious FEC and FCC violations. The reason, IMHO, that the 'Libertarian' party never got anyplace is because of people neutering it from perceived philosophical violations, many of which were red herrings.

Easiest way to neuter any movement. Tell it it can't do well or try to win. The objective is to win, so everyone is free, including our enemies.

asmartchimp

01-06-2008, 11:34 PM

Uh, who cares? They probably use the same people for the focus group. Both of the debates where this guy has shown up were in NH.

:confused:

RiseAgainRepublic

01-06-2008, 11:36 PM

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. They probably just called all the people they had at the last focus group and asked them if they had decided or not, if they hadnt then they were invited to tonights focus group.

Myerz

01-06-2008, 11:36 PM

Send this to CNN....they have fun busting FOX news!

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:36 PM

I can post it on FR. But I want to get it straight before I post something like this.

I asked some questions on the other thread (on the same topic)

It seems pretty obvious to me that this should at least be investigated in the media. But OK.

Xonox

01-06-2008, 11:38 PM

Uh, who cares? They probably use the same people for the focus group. Both of the debates where this guy has shown up were in NH.

:confused:

And he gives 2 different responses, and both times is introduced as 'undecided'? It is clearly intentional electioneering.

was the person behind this find, send this man some mail and thank him!

tnvoter

01-06-2008, 11:39 PM

Blimp.

specsaregood

01-06-2008, 11:41 PM

You're both wrong. That isn't why kuccinich is making a complaint for the first poster, and what will be decided isn't the issue, but that there is legal grounds for filing a complaint.

Obviously, an FCC complaint can be filed. There is also FEC violations to complain about. They should be filed. A press release should be sent. And stock holders should be warned because it may negatively impact the value of their holdings.

Actually I am not wrong.

The comment I quoted said, "FCC Laws" and the reason Fox won the lawsuit I referenced -- on appeal--was that the appellate court decided that "prohibitions against news distortion are merely a "policy" of the FCC" Not a Law, a policy.

jointhefightforfreedom

01-06-2008, 11:41 PM

HUGE f-ing BUMP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gb13

01-06-2008, 11:41 PM

Holy shit!!!!!!! Forward that thing to every media outlet you can find.

How did they slip-up on that one?

This thing should go fucking viral!!!

ionlyknowy

01-06-2008, 11:43 PM

if there isnt a law for this, then there clearly needs to be...

Anyone claiming to be a news outlet should be liable for intentional lies.

Myerz

01-06-2008, 11:44 PM

Are there any other familiar faces? More than one participant would be great!

I guess we need to get a group of people together and each person pick a few faces to remember.....then watch the second video.......and see if you see the faces again.... or have we already looked?

more the better!

Thanehand

01-06-2008, 11:44 PM

You are totally allowed to sue the news for misrepresentation...

And you'd probably lose. FOX has already been sued for misrepresentation and WON in a Florida court stating that "there's no law that says news organizations can't lie to the people."

Having the same focus group again isn't a big deal, but it does reek of intent to manipulate if they say that they're just people they pulled off the street in New Hampshire for the "forum."

gb13

01-06-2008, 11:44 PM

P.S. - The guy in the background is totally putting the moves on that old lady next to him.

Myerz

01-06-2008, 11:47 PM

Help me out. I've seen outlets use the same focus groups through the course of a campaign before. Has Fox claimed that these were different groups or different people? Where's the smoking gun here? I'm missing it.

What are the facts..........or to any other media outlet....where is the story?

I hate this as much as everyone else but it needs to be a blatant violation.

Cali4RonPaul

01-06-2008, 11:47 PM

That is just sad. F U Frank!!!

Grandson of Liberty

01-06-2008, 11:47 PM

I don't think this is a question of law, I think it's a question of ethics.

Ding-Ding! We have a winner!

For those of us living in the real world, we want the law that is applied to us to apply to others. The same reason you put earmarks in bills, and ask for your taxes back at the end of the year.

These are serious FEC and FCC violations. The reason, IMHO, that the 'Libertarian' party never got anyplace is because of people neutering it from perceived philosophical violations, many of which were red herrings.

Easiest way to neuter any movement. Tell it it can't do well or try to win. The objective is to win, so everyone is free, including our enemies.

In the "real world" as you put it, these are "alleged violations." And if you want to go the legal course, none of this will get cleared up for years to come, much too late to matter now. But certainly, ethics is something that can be challenged, perhaps even quite effectively, immediately. That's why PR folks make so much moohlah. Now it's up to us to make their lives uncomfortable.

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:48 PM

The legal issues don't matter much. The point it that this is a SCANDAL that would embarrass Fux for its phony journalism. The Court of Public Opinion will condemn it!

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:48 PM

Actually I am not wrong.

The comment I quoted said, "FCC Laws" and the reason Fox won the lawsuit I referenced -- on appeal--was that the appellate court decided that "prohibitions against news distortion are merely a "policy" of the FCC" Not a Law, a policy.

Yes, your wrong too. Citing a particular case is meaningless, that is for a hearing to decide. The question at this point is if there is legal grounds to file a complaint. If there isn't, no lawyer will file one. But there clearly is legal reason to file a complaint. What will happen to that complaint is to be decided later.

Here is an article on Kucinich actually complaint.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200801051702DOWJONESDJONLINE000413_FORTUNE5.htm

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:49 PM

The legal issues don't matter much. The point it that this is a SCANDAL that would embarrass Fux for its phony journalism. The Court of Public Opinion will condemn it!

The legal issues matter very much. They matter so much that a complaint should be filed by noon, and a press release filed later that day. The whole world should know about it.

Myerz

01-06-2008, 11:50 PM

This is more than just getting the weather report wrong.....they are manipulating the election process here. If they could they would probably like to see the whole concept of voting go away!

There has to be a law.... if not this will be why a law is needed.

Myerz

01-06-2008, 11:51 PM

FCC?
Does anyone know anyone in the FCC?

schmeisser

01-06-2008, 11:51 PM

And you'd probably lose. FOX has already been sued for misrepresentation and WON in a Florida court stating that "there's no law that says news organizations can't lie to the people."

Having the same focus group again isn't a big deal, but it does reek of intent to manipulate if they say that they're just people they pulled off the street in New Hampshire for the "forum."

Please provide a scanned copy of your JD degree.

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:51 PM

I mean, some people are saying "But it's legal what they're doing, so we shouldn't bother." At least that's the impression I'm getting. Maybe, maybe not but we still should humiliate them.

And, yet again, SOMEONE POST THIS ON FREEREPUBLIC AND DAILYKOS!!!

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:52 PM

In the "real world" as you put it, these are "alleged violations." And if you want to go the legal course, none of this will get cleared up for years to come, much too late to matter now. But certainly, ethics is something that can be challenged, perhaps even quite effectively, immediately. That's why PR folks make so much moohlah. Now it's up to us to make their lives uncomfortable.

If you do nothing, nothing will happen.

In the real world of people who want to live, Fox would get slapped hard tomorrow,
and all NH would be reading about it the next day. That the actually hearing or case
would be heard in the far future doesn't really matter.

BeFranklin

01-06-2008, 11:53 PM

I mean, some people are saying "But it's legal what they're doing, so we shouldn't bother." At least that's the impression I'm getting. Maybe, maybe not but we still should humiliate them.

And, yet again, SOMEONE POST THIS ON FREEREPUBLIC AND DAILYKOS!!!

Any person from Fox or another campaign might say the same thing. Lets not neuter a perfect opportunity.

Sentinelrv

01-06-2008, 11:53 PM

They underestimate the power of the internet!

LynnB

01-06-2008, 11:56 PM

At the risk of spamming....Did anyone send this to factcheck.org? They keep a running list of lies the candidates tell..btw, you won't find ron paul in their list

Flirple

01-06-2008, 11:56 PM

People, there is nothing inherently wrong with collecting the same focus group later on in the campaign season. In fact it has some advantages because it ads a "control" to the process. Unless this group was advertised as being an original group there is nothing wrong with using the same people.

What does matter are what biases (if any) influenced who choose these people in the first place.

specsaregood

01-06-2008, 11:56 PM

Yes, your wrong too. Citing a particular case is meaningless, that is for a hearing to decide. The question at this point is if there is legal grounds to file a complaint. If there isn't, no lawyer will file one. But there clearly is legal reason to file a complaint. What will happen to that complaint is to be decided later.

Here is an article on Kucinich actually complaint.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200801051702DOWJONESDJONLINE000413_FORTUNE5.htm

No, I do not believe I am wrong. The keyword is "fcc law" vs. "fcc policy".
This is NOT against any "fcc law", it might very well be eligible for complaint for violating "fcc policy" but that is not a LAW. Now, if the poster had said "FEC law", I probably would not have chimed in, as this is more in line with electioneering, which is not an FCC issue.

RiseAgainRepublic

01-06-2008, 11:56 PM

The legal issues don't matter much. The point it that this is a SCANDAL that would embarrass Fux for its phony journalism. The Court of Public Opinion will condemn it!

There is no scandal here. Tracking peoples political thought and how it changes over time and why is Luntzs job. That is the point of these focus groups. There was probably a smattering of newbies and focus group "veterans" Luntzs business is to find out what kind of politics sells the best.

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:56 PM

I'm not saying abandon to legal issues. But make it known to the people first and let them investigate it. Don't sit on it!

govtpigII

01-06-2008, 11:57 PM

This guy wasn't at the Town Hall meeting tonight asking Dr Paul if his views on immigration were in conflict with the rest of his views...same guy?

NYgs23

01-06-2008, 11:57 PM

There is no scandal here. Tracking peoples political thought and how it changes over time and why is Luntzs job. That is the point of these focus groups. There was probably a smattering of newbies and focus group "veterans" Luntzs business is to find out what kind of politics sells the best.

Why don't we let the people decide that? He didn't mention that at the beginning, did he?

zaffa

01-06-2008, 11:57 PM

Just made a digg on this. Lets get it front page.
http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Fox_Caught_using_same_Undecided_voters_in_polls_na tionwide

BeFranklin

01-07-2008, 12:02 AM

I'm seeing a marked increase of new users and posters with a bias towards inaction..

prlgrl

01-07-2008, 12:03 AM

People, there is nothing inherently wrong with collecting the same focus group later on in the campaign season. In fact it has some advantages because it ads a "control" to the process. Unless this group was advertised as being an original group there is nothing wrong with using the same people.

What does matter are what biases (if any) influenced who choose these people in the first place.
That may be true, but it might make good material for Paul's visit to Leno tomorrow night... OR send it to Jon Stewart! Oh, he likes Ron, he'd love this. They can have some fun with it... can you send it to Leno or Jon Stewart??? 'There's a lot of truth in a joke"

all J's in IL for RP

01-07-2008, 12:03 AM

Just to put a frame of reference (if nobody's done it yet)...

September 5th
Durham is northwest of Portsmith and southwest of Dover in the eastern portion of the state

tonights
Milford is west of and between Manchester and Nashua at the southern end of the state.

Did Luntz at anytime say how he put his groups together? Assuredly not from locals, unless this guy has two residencies.

NYgs23

01-07-2008, 12:03 AM

I'm seeing a marked increase of new users and posters with a bias towards inaction..

Yes, honestly! "Ehhh, we're not ABSOLUTELY SURE, so let's sit on it and make sure no one finds out." Huh?

No, I do not believe I am wrong. The keyword is "fcc law" vs. "fcc policy".
This is NOT against any "fcc law", it might very well be eligible for complaint for violating "fcc policy" but that is not a LAW. Now, if the poster had said "FEC law", I probably would not have chimed in, as this is more in line with electioneering, which is not an FCC issue.

The word you're looking for I think is administration law.

This can be pursued a number of ways, including that. I think finance violations can lead to criminal penalties.

ionlyknowy

01-07-2008, 12:05 AM

Please provide a scanned copy of your JD degree.

I can vouch, I am in law school. Dont have the degree yet but I did ask this question in class.

The instructor verified that the news can lie to you.

And yes there was a 2003 court case where Fox was sued for telling lies. Fox won, then counter sued for their lawyers fees... and the people that sued Fox ended up having to pay a TON of money because of this..

michaelwise

01-07-2008, 12:05 AM

Frank Luntz's Dog and pony Show.

prlgrl

01-07-2008, 12:06 AM

Just to put a frame of reference (if nobody's done it yet)...

September 5th
Durham is northwest of Portsmith and southwest of Dover in the eastern portion of the state

tonights
Milford is west of and between Manchester and Nashua at the southern end of the state.

Did Luntz at anytime say how he put his groups together? Assuredly not from locals, unless this guy has two residencies.good catch!

govtpigII

01-07-2008, 12:06 AM

Yes, honestly! "Ehhh, we're not ABSOLUTELY SURE, so let's sit on it and make sure no one finds out." Huh?

Someone post this on DAILYKOS.

Doesn't matter if they think it's ok. WE ALL know it is manipulative and misleading, it's definitely not fair and balanced. They should say they are using the same people....4months apart that is a joke.

We have one fact: A guy that claims he is undecided that was at a Focus Group 4 months ago and is at another Focus Group tonight. So What? It is indicative of very little. Cries of "Scandal!!" and talk of calling the FCC are not warranted by the one fact we have.

govtpigII

01-07-2008, 12:11 AM

We have one fact: A guy that claims he is undecided that was at a Focus Group 4 months ago and is at another Focus Group tonight. So What? It is indicative of very little. Cries of "Scandal!!" and talk of calling the FCC are not warranted by the one fact we have.

You miss the point, it is wrong and misleading. Everyone should know whats going on.

Who cares about whether they could be successfully sued or not... right now, we just want this to get some media play before the NH primaries.

Because that's how you do it:

If there is grounds to file a complaint, you file it.

You make a press release.

NH voters see it in the media.

ionlyknowy

01-07-2008, 12:17 AM

If you want a quick way to spread this to the news, then I have a thread that contains over 5,000 emails to news outlets all over the US...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=68221

We have been using this list to get out the Fox news exclusion to the media.

PimpBlimp

01-07-2008, 12:17 AM

Holy shit, Chuck 'the guy' even tries to pick up a New England accent in the latest video. Talk about acting.

slamhead

01-07-2008, 12:17 AM

There is no scandal here. Tracking peoples political thought and how it changes over time and why is Luntzs job. That is the point of these focus groups. There was probably a smattering of newbies and focus group "veterans" Luntzs business is to find out what kind of politics sells the best.

How do you know theyre not? Because that guy spoke favorably of a candidiate at the last focus group does not mean that he is commited to that candidate. People change their minds.

WHO CARES? No matter what, we should spread this around and let people make up their own minds. If what you say is right then Luntz should have explained that and not played it up as like some random people off the street. Now go build up your post count with posts supporting Ron Paul before you start speaking weird contrarian opinions. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO REASON NOT TO MAKE THIS KNOWN. Then Frankie can explain it.

HEY! WE HAVE A
FOX NEWS SUBFORUM (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=246)
KEEP THIS SHIT WHERE IT BELONGS, PLEASE!

Revolutn

01-07-2008, 12:27 AM

Ron Paul needs to bring this up at the FOX debate.

Tank them on live television.

He's too gentlemanly, but I think he SHOULD have a high quality side by side of this and have it in his lapel pocket and pull it out and open it to the camera while responding to the first question put to him.

RiseAgainRepublic

01-07-2008, 12:27 AM

Ignore him, he has only 7 posts to his name, all probably from this thread. Bunch of people like that popping on all of a sudden. Must be fire.

You people really need to cut this Marxist shit out.

BeFranklin

01-07-2008, 12:30 AM

You people really need to cut this Marxist shit out.

Reported for forum violation.

slamhead

01-07-2008, 12:34 AM

You people really need to cut this Marxist shit out.

Marxist? Who is being Marxist? People pointing out a fact that is misrepresented. Being Told that these are undecided voters from the community, a propaganda representation of the facts, that is Marxist.

Are these the same people in the fox "polls" This is bullshit. If it was their intention to take a group of people and have them follow the campaign then tell us so. Don't represent them to NH like they are their neighbors. Fox should be called out on this.

RiseAgainRepublic

01-07-2008, 12:44 AM

Marxist? Who is being Marxist? People pointing out a fact that is misrepresented. Being Told that these are undecided voters from the community, a propaganda representation of the facts, that is Marxist.

Are these the same people in the fox "polls" This is bullshit. If it was their intention to take a group of people and have them follow the campaign then tell us so. Don't represent them to NH like they are their neighbors. Fox should be called out on this.

I was addressing BeFranklins advice to ignore me. Didnt address what I said, only encouraged you to ignore me becasue I have a low post count.

all J's in IL for RP

01-07-2008, 12:49 AM

Me, I tend to ignore posts of people who've been on this site for just a little while and have several thousand posts. I leave it to you to figure out why.

Dave Pedersen

01-07-2008, 12:54 AM

The only "scandal" would be if any person in any of these groups showed up in two different states. Is there any match of the same person in two different states?

kotetu

01-07-2008, 12:55 AM

anyone else notice something funny at 2:46 in that september video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYLVgMF9R9g&feature=related

NYgs23

01-07-2008, 01:01 AM

bump. The skeptics MUST UNDERSTAND that Luntz makes it seem like he pulled these people off the street, not like he has them in a stable which he apparently does.

Dave Pedersen

01-07-2008, 01:02 AM

anyone else notice something funny at 2:46 in that september video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYLVgMF9R9g&feature=related

No. I see Frank pointing to the stupid graph meter. What do you see?

rfbz

01-07-2008, 01:07 AM

youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQNdj3NqXE

spread it around

paul_v

01-07-2008, 01:16 AM

Some people here think that using the same people for two different focus groups isn't a big deal. The big problem is that this information should have been disclosed by Lutz or Fox from the start. It's pretty shady to not disclose this. For all we know these are paid actors!

good video, but they were actually both in New Hampshire. the first video is a clip right after the debate where RP says "i take my marching orders from the constitution" and that was at the university of NH

rfbz

01-07-2008, 01:33 AM

not to spam but here's mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQNdj3NqXE

Birdlady

01-07-2008, 01:34 AM

Could it be the lady in red in the back is the same highlighted...need a better quality vid to go off of.

No you are wrong in every single picture you are linking. Please do not put false information in this thread.

In the picture where you think you see the woman in the red, it's the same VIDEO CLIP. How could the woman in the red be sitting in the front and back row. Please do not post this stuff until you stop and think first.

I forgot to post this:

Anyone can sign up to be in his Focus Group and yes it sounds like you are hand picked.
h ttp://www.luntz.com/

You will see it on the upper right hand side. It then takes you to a survey and asks you questions.

damon04

01-07-2008, 01:37 AM

lol, bump

hueylong

01-07-2008, 01:38 AM

There's a YouTube video about ANOTHER Frank plant -- Douglas Maher.

LordBucket

01-07-2008, 07:43 AM

I've participated in focus groups. yes, they usually do pay you for participating. Also, once you're on the list with an organization, it's pretty routine for them to call you back when they have another focus group.

The same people appearing in multiple focus groups would be no surprise.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

01-07-2008, 08:43 AM

Some people here think that using the same people for two different focus groups isn't a big deal. The big problem is that this information should have been disclosed by Lutz or Fox from the start. It's pretty shady to not disclose this. For all we know these are paid actors!

I'm convinced I've seen 3 repeat focus groupers in this thread alone. I also wonder if these people are being paid, or they're just travelling around paying their own way because they continue to be invited. True, it doesn't seem like fox outright lied, but this sure is fishy.

BeFranklin

01-07-2008, 09:26 AM

I think we begin to see how they do polling too.

They just keep using the same people over and over again!

werdd

01-07-2008, 09:33 AM

The fraud lies in him being a florida voter, then magicly 4 months later a NH voter. they are not people from the region.

dawnbt

01-07-2008, 09:43 AM

well lets get some facts, sure a picture is worth 1000 words, but lets surround this with facts.

h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQNdj3NqXE

dawnbt

01-07-2008, 09:47 AM

Here is a link to all NH Newspapers!

h ttp://www.50states.com/news/newhamp.htm

jenninlouisiana

01-07-2008, 09:55 AM

The fraud lies in him being a florida voter, then magicly 4 months later a NH voter. they are not people from the region.

Exactly. This is the only point we can get Luntz/Fox on/

Dexter_Roseville

01-07-2008, 09:58 AM

The fraud lies in him being a florida voter, then magicly 4 months later a NH voter. they are not people from the region.

Actually both focus groups were in NH.

tamor

01-07-2008, 09:58 AM

There may be no laws broken and this may be commom practice. But planting the seed of dishonesty and corruption is all that is needed. It will "grow" and "grow" ....

Uh, who cares? They probably use the same people for the focus group. Both of the debates where this guy has shown up were in NH.

:confused:

I care! These staged focus groups sway the opinion of voters. We not take focus groups seriously but many many people do!

dawnbt

01-07-2008, 10:22 AM

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. They probably just called all the people they had at the last focus group and asked them if they had decided or not, if they hadnt then they were invited to tonights focus group.

Then how is that the focus group after the last debate all said "Absolutely" at the same time? Sounds a bit rehearsed to me!

dawnbt

01-07-2008, 10:27 AM

I'm seeing a marked increase of new users and posters with a bias towards inaction..

+1

gid

01-07-2008, 10:27 AM

We really need more facts here. The last thing we want to do is to jump to conclusions and make our man look stupid.... by proxy...

dawnbt

01-07-2008, 10:33 AM

We have one fact: A guy that claims he is undecided that was at a Focus Group 4 months ago and is at another Focus Group tonight. So What? It is indicative of very little. Cries of "Scandal!!" and talk of calling the FCC are not warranted by the one fact we have.

thanks for your imput newbie

Matthew Zak

01-07-2008, 10:33 AM

Then how is that the focus group after the last debate all said "Absolutely" at the same time? Sounds a bit rehearsed to me!

I noticed that too. It was synchronized. The word "absolutely" is not the first word that comes to my head when I want to confirm something. There are plenty others, and in a "random" focus group you would expect to hear a variation. Like, "yes", "without a doubt", "certainly", or simply "Mmm-hmm". But no, you got Luntz's favorite. "Absolutely".

Matthew Zak

01-07-2008, 10:35 AM

Somebody had a video proving that one of the "Random undecided voters" was actually a campaign person or something to that affect. Where is that? These two things together is a sure smoking gun.

I couldn't fit that in and make it sound right, but you are indeed correct.

I'm getting one myself.

constitutional

01-07-2008, 01:43 PM

I hosted that image and someone posted it on digg. Now my server bandwidth is gone. :( I must pay extra.

ah well, for liberty.

frasu

01-07-2008, 05:16 PM

^^^

3sigma

01-07-2008, 06:27 PM

image removed

liberty_rp08

01-08-2008, 12:45 AM

33,885 views! This has been linked to all over the blogosphere.

tomdennen

01-08-2008, 07:10 AM

I'm a sixty-five year old democratic baby boomer - Ron Paul is the breath of fresh air the empire needs to discipline itself.

Keep the Zionists away from him!

Tom Dennen
Durban
South Africa

infinique

06-07-2009, 01:42 AM

Fox is just a shadow cover. Glenn Beck is but a pawn...or Spawn to throw smoke that would satisfy the dumbwits.

zach

06-07-2009, 07:36 AM

bringin' back the bacon :D

Evangelical_Protestant

10-03-2012, 09:48 PM

Hello, I have come to you from the future. Fox News just had another great focus group from a room full of un-decided voters in which the vast majority are now voting for Romney (after previously leaning towards Obama) because of the exciting, innovative, and decisive statements spoken by Governer Mitt Romney here in 2012. Mitt Romney is re-igniting the Republican base, thus saith the focus group.