You know full well the public did not vote on the customs union. I've posted videos more than once of Leave politicians and campaigners saying that a vote for Brexit did not mean leaving the customs Union.

The ONLY way to know if the public want a soft or a hard Brexit is another referendum. Pretending the country voted for a hard Brexit is pure dishonesty.

Ask any Leave voter...hardline or not why they voted that way,and the fundamental part,revolves
around leaving or changing the present customs union....we remain in it the way it presently stands
we might as well fuck the whole thing off...and just let the anti democracy lot have their way and revoke
article 50...
It's crucial that we leave it or revamp it giving us control over immigration,law and trade..
The things people voted leave for in the first place...this hard and "soft" brexit thing is a fallacy,
cos Hard means we leave...Soft means we don't...it's simple....

How can Labour continue to let Corbyn destroy any semblance of a viable opposition? Surely to dog the fact Labour lag behind this utter shambles of a government in the polls is a clarion call for change?

What would you have Labour do? I assumed Corbyn's politics were a good example of the type of left-wing political outlook that Labour is supposed to represent, no?

Corbyn might be a cult figure among the Labour rank and file, but it's abundantly clear that he's close to unelectable for the public at large.
He's indecisive in policy, seems oblivious to the bad press this 'antisemitism scandal' is causing, and is utterly selfish about his party's best interests.
Polls are already predicting Johnson would win back the seats May lost in a general election.
If the plan is to watch on whilst the Tories scuttle the nation, and then swoop in like some decrepit messiah. Well, even that's not going well, because we're listing heavily and he's still struggling.

What should he do? Resign. Will he? No, because his ego wants one more crack at PM.

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Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

What would you have Labour do? I assumed Corbyn's politics were a good example of the type of left-wing political outlook that Labour is supposed to represent, no?

Corbyn might be a cult figure among the Labour rank and file, but it's abundantly clear that he's close to unelectable for the public at large.
He's indecisive in policy, seems oblivious to the bad press this 'antisemitism scandal' is causing, and is utterly selfish about his party's best interests.
Polls are already predicting Johnson would win back the seats May lost in a general election.
If the plan is to watch on whilst the Tories scuttle the nation, and then swoop in like some decrepit messiah. Well, even that's not going well, because we're listing heavily and he's still struggling.

What should he do? Resign. Will he? No, because his ego wants one more crack at PM.

I'm not sure it matters what Labour do next, they've left it too late and no matter how frantically they pull the rip-cord - they're going to go splat. They should have got rid of Corbyn the moment he failed to win an election that was basically a gimmie.

They will be fighting fires left, right and centre (no pun intended but I'll take it as it's a good 'un) as the Labour remain voters (and to be fair, the more left centrist Tory remain voters) migrate en masse to the eminently much more electable Jo Swinson and the Lib Dems.

They (The Libs) have played a blinder here by electing a new leader using the Tory abortion of a leadership race as a smokescreen and pretty much going under the radar of mainstream media.

Swinson has already been making all the right noises and she's only been leader for a few hours! Who knows? She might not be satisfied with an opposition role. The way the two main parties are at the moment, a Liberal Government really isn't beyond the realms of possibility sometime in the not too distant future. Unlikely I know but never say never.

Oh and a footnote. Remember when I started this thread about the Mogg?

You know full well the public did not vote on the customs union. I've posted videos more than once of Leave politicians and campaigners saying that a vote for Brexit did not mean leaving the customs Union.

The ONLY way to know if the public want a soft or a hard Brexit is another referendum. Pretending the country voted for a hard Brexit is pure dishonesty.

Ask any Leave voter...hardline or not why they voted that way,and the fundamental part,revolves
around leaving or changing the present customs union....we remain in it the way it presently stands
we might as well fuck the whole thing off...and just let the anti democracy lot have their way and revoke
article 50...
It's crucial that we leave it or revamp it giving us control over immigration,law and trade..
The things people voted leave for in the first place...this hard and "soft" brexit thing is a fallacy,
cos Hard means we leave...Soft means we don't...it's simple....

That is utter nonsense, mate. The Leave campaign went out of their way to distance themselves from a commitment to get rid of the customs union.
Do you have no memory of them all dismissing project fear?
Let's be clear, the customs union as an entity has fuck all to do with immigration, EU or otherwise. Fundamentally its a commitment to EU trade deals and standards of practice. Even Turkey is a member and they're a long way from EU membership, free movement, or complying with the ECHR.
If you think anyone's principal reason for voting Leave was the customs union you've been badly informed.
The reason people like Mogg, or Redwood want out is to line their own pockets, or at least have their pockets lined by someone who will benefit -- see: politicians with ties to US drug companies, health insurance, etc, etc.

0 x

Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

One thing is crystal clear. If, as expected, BJ is announced tomorrow as our next Prime Minister the Conservative party, as we've known it during my lifetime will have committed electoral suicide. It is predicted there could be as many as 10, yes TEN, ministerial resignations if Johnson wins. It is also the Prime Minister's role, and remember we have a minority government, to retain the support of his coalition partners. And an interesting sideline to that is that Northern Ireland, by a significant majority, voted remain in the referendum.

I anticipate a fairly immediate vote of no confidence being called and being successful. And then comes the real dilemma for the traditional conservative voters, of which I consider myself one. Many Conservatives voted remain. Will they support a "leave at all costs" Johnson led party or cast their vote elsewhere. Many other Conservatives voted leave. Will they support a Johnson led administration or vote for Farage's Brexit Party ? And of course many who didn't vote at all in the referendum, either because they didn't understand all the issues or because they simply couldn't be bothered, are also people who would normally be expected to vote conservative.

But I don't see ANY conservative thinking individual going out and voting Labour, such as happened when Blair became PM, so we could see a massive swing to the Lib Dems, and let's face it that is what normally happens when an unpopular Tory government is in power. But would the more moderate Tories who want to leave the EU but are fearful of doing it without any sort of deal vote Lib Dem knowing that a vote for them is a vote to Remain. And apart from the fact their party is also led by an economic illiterate, Labour stands to lose the votes of the "I ain't got no job and it's because of fucking Poles" brigade who could also switch to Farage. Always assuming their intellectual capacity enables them to find their way to the polloing station and write an X in the correct box.

Interesting times lie ahead.

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TRADITION--Just because we've always done it like this doesn't mean it's not incredibly SILLY

One thing is crystal clear. If, as expected, BJ is announced tomorrow as our next Prime Minister the Conservative party, as we've known it during my lifetime will have committed electoral suicide. It is predicted there could be as many as 10, yes TEN, ministerial resignations if Johnson wins. It is also the Prime Minister's role, and remember we have a minority government, to retain the support of his coalition partners. And an interesting sideline to that is that Northern Ireland, by a significant majority, voted remain in the referendum.

I anticipate a fairly immediate vote of no confidence being called and being successful. And then comes the real dilemma for the traditional conservative voters, of which I consider myself one. Many Conservatives voted remain. Will they support a "leave at all costs" Johnson led party or cast their vote elsewhere. Many other Conservatives voted leave. Will they support a Johnson led administration or vote for Farage's Brexit Party ? And of course many who didn't vote at all in the referendum, either because they didn't understand all the issues or because they simply couldn't be bothered, are also people who would normally be expected to vote conservative.

But I don't see ANY conservative thinking individual going out and voting Labour, such as happened when Blair became PM, so we could see a massive swing to the Lib Dems, and let's face it that is what normally happens when an unpopular Tory government is in power. But would the more moderate Tories who want to leave the EU but are fearful of doing it without any sort of deal vote Lib Dem knowing that a vote for them is a vote to Remain. And apart from the fact their party is also led by an economic illiterate, Labour stands to lose the votes of the "I ain't got no job and it's because of fucking Poles" brigade who could also switch to Farage. Always assuming their intellectual capacity enables them to find their way to the polloing station and write an X in the correct box.

Interesting times lie ahead.

The country is fast becoming polarised. The centre ground is on thin ice. I listened to the new Lib Dem bint yesterday who said she could win the next General Election. Who the fuck is she kidding ?

I like millions voted to leave on the back of immigration. And that has not changed one bit. Communities especially in the Labour heartlands are sick of entire neighbourhoods resembling downtown Karachi. This and the Blair government have almost encouraged it. Breeding grounds for terrorists.

I still think the EU will concede on NI when they see what lies ahead but if not and you're correct in saying that Tory traitors will jump ship, an autumn or spring election after a vote of no confidence will see Farage's lot do a deal with Boris and win the election as Corbyn, should he stay in charge, is unelectable save for the admittedly growing number of young work-shy anarchists who've yet to enter the real world.

If Corbyn gets the boot it will be closer, but no cigar.

Whoever would win a Labour leadership contest I don't know. After the scandal regarding the paedophile Tory ring was exposed as fantasy, Tom Watson should be doing bird with Carl Beech but that's another matter.

One thing is crystal clear. If, as expected, BJ is announced tomorrow as our next Prime Minister the Conservative party, as we've known it during my lifetime will have committed electoral suicide. It is predicted there could be as many as 10, yes TEN, ministerial resignations if Johnson wins. It is also the Prime Minister's role, and remember we have a minority government, to retain the support of his coalition partners. And an interesting sideline to that is that Northern Ireland, by a significant majority, voted remain in the referendum.

I anticipate a fairly immediate vote of no confidence being called and being successful. And then comes the real dilemma for the traditional conservative voters, of which I consider myself one. Many Conservatives voted remain. Will they support a "leave at all costs" Johnson led party or cast their vote elsewhere. Many other Conservatives voted leave. Will they support a Johnson led administration or vote for Farage's Brexit Party ? And of course many who didn't vote at all in the referendum, either because they didn't understand all the issues or because they simply couldn't be bothered, are also people who would normally be expected to vote conservative.

But I don't see ANY conservative thinking individual going out and voting Labour, such as happened when Blair became PM, so we could see a massive swing to the Lib Dems, and let's face it that is what normally happens when an unpopular Tory government is in power. But would the more moderate Tories who want to leave the EU but are fearful of doing it without any sort of deal vote Lib Dem knowing that a vote for them is a vote to Remain. And apart from the fact their party is also led by an economic illiterate, Labour stands to lose the votes of the "I ain't got no job and it's because of fucking Poles" brigade who could also switch to Farage. Always assuming their intellectual capacity enables them to find their way to the polloing station and write an X in the correct box.

Interesting times lie ahead.

The country is fast becoming polarised. The centre ground is on thin ice. I listened to the new Lib Dem bint yesterday who said she could win the next General Election. Who the fuck is she kidding ?

I like millions voted to leave on the back of immigration. And that has not changed one bit. Communities especially in the Labour heartlands are sick of entire neighbourhoods resembling downtown Karachi. This and the Blair government have almost encouraged it. Breeding grounds for terrorists.

I still think the EU will concede on NI when they see what lies ahead but if not and you're correct in saying that Tory traitors will jump ship, an autumn or spring election after a vote of no confidence will see Farage's lot do a deal with Boris and win the election as Corbyn, should he stay in charge, is unelectable save for the admittedly growing number of young work-shy anarchists who've yet to enter the real world.

If Corbyn gets the boot it will be closer, but no cigar.

Whoever would win a Labour leadership contest I don't know. After the scandal regarding the paedophile Tory ring was exposed as fantasy, Tom Watson should be doing bird with Carl Beech but that's another matter.

I actually don't think anyone will win the next election. But everyone is capable of losing it. And I believe if, as seems likely, Johnson gets the nod that is the first own goal. As you say the Labour party had the chance of dumping Corbyn and didn't. That's the second one. I doubt the Lib Dems could ever win an election under the present rules, which I think are very silly for a number of reasons, but particularly now as we are likely to see tactical voting on a massive scale. Which of course means people don't vote for what they believe in but because they feel candidate A has more chance of beating the slightly more loathsome Candidate B. However the Lib Dems could end up being the next bog trotters and being a partner in a coalition. Although with whom god only knows. I hope, as a lifelong conservative, the party does what Labvour did pre Blair. It needs to reinvent itself, standing for the old conservative values of hard work equalling worthwhile rewards, and to rid itself of those who still believe Britain, or more particularly England, is still capable of sending a gunboat up the Ganges or the Niger to nip trouble in the bud. The Empire has gone, but some, sadly, still refuse to accept it.

But your comment regarding downtown Karachi is very pertinent to the Brexit debate imo. Successive governments in the country, even before we joined the, as it then was, common market have first encouraged, and then tolerated, immigration on a massive scale from former COMMONWEALTH countries whose citizens, until the law was changed, were guaranteed a British passport. Many have contributed much to our society since arriving but others have not and, unlike the vast majority of Eastern Europeans who come here to work, in many of these enclaves there are still many thousands who refuse to speak English. They are the problem who need weeding out, not those who come, for example, to work in our construction industry because there are not enough Brits with the necessary skills to fill the vacancies. At least that was the case before I retired some years ago and dealt with a number of major players in that industry.

And please don't tell me that if we hadn't been in the EU this country would not have accepted many of the displaced masses from the world's trouble spots, as traditionally we always have. Ugandan Asians anyone ?

I disagree about your comment regarding the centrist politicians. People will see through the irony of an unholy alliance between the likes of Fleas-Dogg and Diane Abbott joining together at the hip to pursue a policy of isolation, one for barely concealed self interest, the other to enable the pursuit of an outdated Marxist ideology.

All speculation on both our parts of course but I think we will soon begin to see what will eventually unfold.

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TRADITION--Just because we've always done it like this doesn't mean it's not incredibly SILLY

Ask any Leave voter...hardline or not why they voted that way,and the fundamental part,revolves
around leaving or changing the present customs union....we remain in it the way it presently stands
we might as well fuck the whole thing off...and just let the anti democracy lot have their way and revoke
article 50...
It's crucial that we leave it or revamp it giving us control over immigration,law and trade..
The things people voted leave for in the first place...this hard and "soft" brexit thing is a fallacy,
cos Hard means we leave...Soft means we don't...it's simple....

That is utter nonsense, mate. The Leave campaign went out of their way to distance themselves from a commitment to get rid of the customs union.
Do you have no memory of them all dismissing project fear?
Let's be clear, the customs union as an entity has fuck all to do with immigration, EU or otherwise. Fundamentally its a commitment to EU trade deals and standards of practice. Even Turkey is a member and they're a long way from EU membership, free movement, or complying with the ECHR.
If you think anyone's principal reason for voting Leave was the customs union you've been badly informed.
The reason people like Mogg, or Redwood want out is to line their own pockets, or at least have their pockets lined by someone who will benefit -- see: politicians with ties to US drug companies, health insurance, etc, etc.

The Present Customs Union and Single Market,maybe should use that as well they're linked
but would have to be negotiated separately..
My fault not being clear....
Involves...The Easy movement of Trade,Services,Capital and PEOPLE......it's all linked Nev.....
We can't remain in the "Present" CU.....and have control of the things people voted for..

There's different levels and regulations to them ....Turkeys is different to ours..as indeed
your saying....we need to renegotiate ours..

Again....People voted the way they did,because they thought we should be allowed to trade with who
we want....set our own laws....and they were worried about the present immigration set up...

In an ideal world we could remain in a version of present CU,and be allowed Free Trade...and
scrap the single market deal...which was what Leavers were hoping to blag.....that aint happening
and I do get the EUs reluctance on that....means we get our cake and eat it..

Can pretty much assure you mate....Financially.. Mogg and the wealthy guys you don't like,will
make money whatever the outcome....and as we speak are preparing deals,for whichever way
it all goes....
And will make dosh with a strong pound, a weak pound....a booming economy...a falling one
it makes no difference....it's way to easy to shift Finances around these days....and you are
right one of the reasons they want out,to make it even easier....suits them,and suits the UK...
Win/Win...

One thing bout Boris.....a Fat Rich Tory Boy old Etonian....became Mayor of Modern day London...
which now has a huge socialist underbelly...unbelievable..

The only guy of his Kind anywhere....could do that...don't underestimate him as a vote winner..

Pretty certain were in for a period of hung parliaments...maybe forever,but if he gets the Euro Bods
moving on the back stop thing...which he could well do,and gets us out of Europe,he'll piss an
election...Big IFS tho..

But next Election results are wholly dependent on the Brexit outcome.....Libs will get back to
their 30/40 or so.......Farage is the Key...he's around for it,means been a forced no confidence vote,
he could nick 40/50.....Tories will all always be the biggest party...nailed on as I see it,but with
under 300 seats....and no coalitions available....less Nige hooks up...interesting...

The only guy of his Kind anywhere....could do that...don't underestimate him as a vote winner..

He is actually a vote winner and a vote loser. He completely polarises opinion. He is one of those people you either love or hate.

I believe he will lose more votes than he wins. Reason ? Most of those who fall into the love him category are, imo, already onside but there are a large number of conservative (usually) voters, like myself, who consider leaving without any sort of deal to be an utterly irresponsible thing to do. Those are the voters he will lose.

Your hung parliament scenario is a given imo. But as someone else has pointed out under the present first past the post system which ALWAYS guarantees a government the majority didn't vote for, the moment Labour ditch Comrade Corbyn his successor will walk into Downing Street as soon as there is an election. Unless of course he is replaced by Diane Abbott. And given the Labour party's capacity for scoring own goals is nearly as high as the Tories that is far from being out of the question.

That's the problem with having the next PM effectively foisted on us, unelected, by 160,000 Tory greybeards and his successor similarly imposed by the will of block voting Trade Union Marxists.

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TRADITION--Just because we've always done it like this doesn't mean it's not incredibly SILLY