thats not what history and science say. I'm supposed to just take your word over history and science?

What science? The numerous papers on genetic testing that prove it? How about you show me what science you talk about. I am not asking you to take my
word I am asking you to believe ... wait for it .. science.

Jews have been present in contemporary Armenia and Georgia since the Babylonian captivity (see also: Mountain Jews). Records exist from the 4th
century showing that there were Armenian cities possessing Jewish populations ranging from 10,000 to 30,000 along with substantial Jewish settlements
in the Crimea.[7] The presence of Jews in the territories corresponding to modern Belarus, Ukraine, and the European part of Russia can be traced back
to the 7th-14th centuries CE.[8][9][9] Under the influence of the Caucasian Jewish communities (see also: Mountain Jews), Bulan, the Khagan Bek of
the Khazars, and the ruling classes of Khazaria (located in what is now Ukraine, southern Russia and Kazakhstan), adopted Judaism at some point in the
mid-to-late 8th or early 9th centuries. After the overthrow of the Khazarian kingdom by Sviatoslav I of Kiev (969), Khazar Jews may have fled in large
numbers to the Crimea, the Caucasus, and the Russian principality of Kiev, which was formerly a part of the Khazar territory.

The conversion of Khazars to Judaism, though doubts persist,[88] is reported overwhelmingly by external sources and in the Khazar Correspondence,
Hebrew documents whose authenticity was long doubted and challenged,[89] but specialists now widely accept them either as authentic or as reflecting
internal Khazar traditions.[90][91][92][93] Archaeological evidence for conversion, on the other hand, remains elusive,[94] and may reflect either the
incompleteness of excavations, or that the stratum of actual adherents was thin.[95] Conversion of steppe or peripheral tribes to a universal religion
is fairly well attested phenomenon,[96] and the Khazar conversion to Judaism, though unusual, was not unique.[97][98] On Khazaria's southern flank,
both Islam and Byzantine Christianity were proselytising great powers. Byzantine success in the north was sporadic, though Armenian and Albanian
missions from Derbend built churches extensively in maritime Daghestan, then a Khazar district,[99] Buddhism also had exercised an attraction on
leaders of both the Eastern (552-742) and Western Qağanates (552-659), the latter being the progenitor of the Khazar state.[100] In 682, according to
the Armenian chronicle of Movsês Dasxuranc'i, the king of Caucasian Albania, Varaz Trdat, dispatched a bishop Israyêl to convert Caucasian "Huns"
who were subject to the Khazars, and managed to bring Alp Ilut'uêr, a son-in-law of the Khazar qağan, and his army, to abandon their shamanizing
cults and join the Christian fold.[101][102] The Arab Georgian martyr St Abo who converted to Christianity within the Khazar kingdom around 779-80,
describes local Khazars as irreligious.[103] Some reports register a Christian majority at Samandar,[104] or Muslim majorities[105] in various areas
of Khazaria. Also Jews from both the Islamic world and Byzantium are known to have migrated to Khazaria during periods of persecution under Heraclius,
Justinian II, Leo III, and Romanus Lakapēnos.[106][107] The pattern is one of an elite conversion preceding large-scale adoption of the new religion
by the general population, which often resisted the imposition.[100] One important condition for mass conversion was a settled urban state, where
churches, synagogues or mosques provided a focus for religion, as opposed to the free nomadic lifestyle of life on the open steppes.[108] A tradition
of the Iranian Judeo-Tats claims that their ancestors were responsible for the Khazar conversion.[109]

Both the date of the conversion, and the extent of its influence beyond the elite,[110] often minimized in scholarship,[111] are a matter of
dispute,[112] but at some point between 740 CE and 920 CE, the Khazar royalty and nobility appear to have converted to Judaism, in part, it is argued,
perhaps to deflect competing pressures from Arabs and Byzantines to accept either Islam or Orthodoxy.[113][114] Christian of Stavelot in his Expositio
in Matthaeum Evangelistam (ca.860-870s) refers to them as descendants of Gog and Magog, who were circumcised and observed all the laws of
Judaism.[115] New numismatic evidence of coins dated 837/8 bearing the inscriptions arḍ al-ḫazar (Land of the Khazars), or Mûsâ rasûl Allâh
(Moses the messenger of God, in imitation of the Islamic coin phrase: Muḥammad rasûl Allâh) suggest to many the conversion took place in that
decade.[116] Olsson argues that the 837/8 evidence marks only the beginning of a long and difficult official Judaization that concluded some decades
later.[117] Another view holds that by the 10th century, while the royal clan officially claimed Judaism, a non-normative variety of Islamisation took
place among the majority of Khazars.[118]

By the 10th century, the letter of King Joseph asserts that, after the royal conversion, "Israel returned (yashuvu yisra'el) with the people of
Qazaria (to Judaism) in complete repentance (bi-teshuvah shelemah).[119] Persian historian Ibn al-Faqîh wrote that 'all the Khazars are Jews, but
they have been Judaized recently'. Ibn Fadlân, based on his Caliphal mission (921-922) to the Volga Bulğars, also reported that 'the core element
of the state, the Khazars, were Judaized',[120] something underwritten by the Qaraite scholar Ya'kub Qirqisânî around 937.[121] The conversion
appears to have occurred against a background of frictions arising from both an intensification of Byzantine missionary activity in from the Crimea to
the Caucasus, and Arab attempts to wrest control over the latter in the 8th century CE,[122] and a revolt, put down, by the Khavars around the mid-9th
century is often invoked as in part influenced by their refusal to accept Judaism.[123] Modern scholars generally[124] see the conversion as a slow
process through three stages, which accords with Richard Eaton's model of syncretic inclusion, gradual identification and, finally, displacement of
the older tradition.[125][126]

Some time between 954 and 961, Ḥasdai ibn Shaprūṭ wrote a letter of inquiry addressed to the ruler of Khazaria, and received a reply from Joseph
of Khazaria. The exchanges of this Khazar Correspondence, together with the Schechter Letter discovered in the Cairo Geniza and the famous platonizing
dialogue[127] by Judah Halevi, Sefer ha-Kuzari ('The Khazar'), which plausibly drew on such sources,[128][129] provide us with the only direct
evidence of the indigenous traditions[130] concerning the conversion. King Bulan[131] is said to have driven out the sorcerers,[132] and to have
received angelic visitations exhorting him to find the true religion, upon which, accompanied by his vizier, he travelled to desert mountains of
Warsān on a seashore, where he came across a cave in which Jews used to celebrate the Sabbath. Here he was circumcised.[133] Bulan is then said to
have convened a royal debate between exponents of the three Abrahamic religions. He decided to convert when he was convinced of Judaism's
superiority. Many scholars situate this c. 740CE, a date supported by Halevi's own account.[134][135] The details are both Judaic [136] and Türkic:
a Türkic ethnogonic myth speaks of an ancestral cave in which the Āshǐnà were conceived from the mating of their human ancestor and a wolf
ancestress.[137][138][139] These accounts suggest that there was a rationalizing syncretism of native pagan traditions with Jewish law, by melding
through the motif of the cave, a site of ancestral ritual and repository of forgotten sacred texts, Türkic myths of origin and Jewish notions of
redemption of Israel's fallen people.[140] It is generally agreed they adopted Rabbinical rather than Qaraite Judaism.[141]

Ibn Fadlan reports that the settlement of disputes in Khazaria was adjudicated by judges hailing each from his community, be it Christian, Jewish,
Muslim, or Pagan.[142] Some evidence suggests that the Khazar king saw himself as a defender of Jews even beyond the kingdom's frontiers, retaliating
against Muslim or Christian interests in Khazaria in the wake of Islamic and Byzantine persecutions of Jews abroad.[143][144] Ibn Fadlan recounts
specifically an incident in which the king of Khazaria destroyed the minaret of a mosque in Atil as revenge for the destruction of a synagogue in Dâr
al-Bâbûnaj, and allegedly said he would have done worse were it not for a fear that the Muslims might retaliate in turn against Jews.[141][145]
Ḥasdai ibn Shaprūṭ sought information on Khazaria in the hope he might discover 'a place on this earth where harassed Israel can rule itself'
and wrote that, were it to prove true that Khazaria had such a king, he would not hesitate to forsake his high office and his family in order to
emigrate there.[146]

Abraham Harkavy [147] noted in 1877 that an Arabic commentary on Isaiah 48:14, variously ascribed to Saadia Gaon or to the Karaite scholar Benjamin
Nahâwandî, interpreted "The Lord hath loved him" as a reference "to the Khazars, who will go and destroy Babel" (i.e., Babylonia), a name used
to designate the country of the Arabs. This has been taken as an indication of hopes by Persian Jews that the Khazars might overthrow the
caliphate.[148][citation needed]

In 965, as the Qağanate was struggling against the victorious campaign of the Rus' prince Sviatislav, the Islamic historian Ibn al-Athîr mentions
that Khazaria, attacked by the Oğuz, sought help from Khwarezm, but their appeal was rejected because they were regarded as 'infidels'
(al-kuffâr:pagans). Save for the king, the Khazarians are said to have converted to Islam in order to secure an alliance, and the Turks were, with
Khwarezm's military assistance repelled. It was this that, according to Ibn al-Athîr, led the Jewish king of Khazar to convert to Islam

Overall, we estimate that most (>80%) Ashkenazi mtDNAs were assimilated within Europe. Few derive from a Near Eastern source, and despite
the recent revival of the ‘Khazar hypothesis’16, virtually none are likely to have ancestry in the North Caucasus. Therefore, whereas on the male
side there may have been a significant Near Eastern (and possibly east European/Caucasian) component in Ashkenazi ancestry, the maternal lineages
mainly trace back to prehistoric Western Europe. These results emphasize the importance of recruitment of local women and conversion in the
formation of Ashkenazi communities, and represent a significant step in the detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.

It doesn't matter, 80% of the women were not from the Middle East and usually that is the lineage Jews go from. They were from Europe and some of the
men are possibly from the Caucasus also...

Me, Hatred? To be honest with you, the Geneology means nothing.. Is there a Gene for Christians? Pagans? Buddhists? Communists? No, because these
religions or ideologies allow anyone to convert, Even the wives of Abraham were from different tribes, it means squat.. This is just an arrogant
attempt to justify land grabbing from the Zionist part. And with that, Jews are not a race to start with.

If they were true Israelites, Israel would have a King (Because Israel can only be ruled by an Israelite King, Not a secular Government), would be
operated under Jewish religious law and not secular law, wouldn't open up Brothels and allow Homosexuality, The people in Israel are imposters and
everything I just mentioned is the reason why they are not Israelites. They contradict the very covenant of the Israelites.

Jews are not a race, you know the only people who have actually claimed that are Hitler and Zionists? Geneology means nothing and I admit that even
though I have provided scientific research about the issue also (Yes, I have already provided a counter argument). I don't like Zionism, I admit that
also... I couldn't give two hoots about them or their cronies who control most of US congress and Israel.

So because Israel is "legal" by Western standards it makes occupying that land OK? I see...

About time you realized this land has been occupied by wetern superpwers for 2000 years since they kick the Jews out, so why would it be different
now? especially that the Jews are back in charge?

An Palestinian Arab state was declared in 1976. Though declared it was not - is not - currently sovereign.

You said it..... Well these palestinians (in essence the descendants of arab refugees form various countries including what we know as today's Jordan)
only remembered in 1976 to create a palestinian state? how is it their 'homeland' since before 1976 then?

I truly believe that it is very difficult to fully identify people occupying a specific piece of real estate from 2-3000 years ago and then attempt to
establish some divine right of ownership or occupation based on verses in a religious book that many question the true authorship.
The whole basis of the biblical rights have to do with purity of race and that is found in the Christian Bible and Talmud.
Ok fast forward to the human genome testing, it has confused many why the people that occupy and call themselves Israelis today have been finding out
their genetics are not even semitic and some that do find out have actually mixed with Palestinian or others people occupying the region and just as
has been mentioned the great majority finding out that they have a mixture of western and eastern European genetics or what would be considered gypsy,
that even their own scientists are attempting to explain but cannot.
If that is the case they are not pure and are Jewish by conversion only how can they wipe out the Palestinians and deny them their basic human rights?
but on the other hand neither are a great majority of Palestinians truly 100% Semitic, because over time they have been intermixed as well, but they
have a greater amount and identity with what is thought to be the original Semitic occupants of the holy land along with other tribal peoples from
surrounding areas, who might be considered Berbers and Bedouin and also darker skinned and African looking but yet are also Semitic as well as the
Ethiopian Jews.
I think that fighting wars and slaughtering others over land and disputes based on religion and who is purer or has a birthright to some part of earth
is very sad especially when it is being proven by genetics that basically there is no pure race per SE in that region and most troubling is that one
majority side in this dispute has absolutely no linkage whatsoever to that geographic location but have committed genocide against the legacy
occupants there under false pretense and historians and the educated know this but it is allowed to continue.

This suggests that, even though Jewish men may indeed have migrated into Europe from Palestine around 2000 years ago, they seem to have married
European women," states Professor Richards. This seems to have happened first along the Mediterranean, especially in Italy, and later -- but
probably to a lesser extent -- in western and central Europe. This suggests that, in the early years of the Diaspora, Judaism took in many converts
from amongst the European population, but they were mainly recruited from amongst women. Thus, on the female line of descent, the Ashkenazim primarily
trace their ancestry neither to Palestine nor to Khazaria in the North Caucasus -- as has also been suggested -- but to southern and western
Europe.

Without getting into it too much.... it is pretty much scientifically validated that all world Jewry didnt originate from Khazaria! this is an
immature claim.... especially when you use wikipedia to back it up!

No you are incorrect, the vast majority who came from Europe were never there in the first place and this can be proven that there is only very small
minority of Israeli's that can even prove otherwise, no my friend, genetic testing is something that yielded a great surprise and you are also
incorrect in stating that it is a religious war but in Judaism that is solely established by bloodline and lineage, if you can establish no bloodline
and lineage properly you are a gentile, lets not get away from the beginnings of this entire dispute and what the holy books that are the cornerstone
of this mess say, it is about who are Jews( really who is from the tribe of Judah more than likely Ethiopian Jews and their line of kings can still
establish bloodline from historical record and unbroken kingship since the biblical days) and who are gentiles that is fact sir and yes it is all
about the land and the temple mount, real estate and who has rights to it from God or whatever you would like to call the creator.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: DarknStormy
About time you realized this land has been occupied by wetern superpwers for 2000 years since they kick the Jews out, so why would it be different
now? especially that the Jews are back in charge?

I think the Vatican is in charge.... Even they have fall guys. I'm just wondering when they are going to take a walk down memory lane.

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