im going off of my personal observations, now im no expert but i think this is a pretty expert observation. last fall and some "falls" before that
the leaves have not fallen off of the trees and they have actually stayed green. My roses were in full bloom last winter, and the rains are coming
later and for shorter periods in the year. its been like this for a couple of years now. Naturally you might expect somethings like this four a year
or two but its been like four or five years since the leaves have fallen. It may not seem a big deal but it is if the earth orbit where tomove over
half an inch over we would have longer days, the slightest change in the balance does a lot to the earth. they seasons are becoming warmer and warmer
every year. That is proof enough that something is going wrong and we need to find out what and how to fix it.

so...the "church of gore" has it's own agenda? like what, a cleaner enviorment? more jobs in green industries? seperation from middle east
politics and oil control? that b-stard!!!! how un-american is that!!! c,mon, you make him sound like the evil incarnate of dick cheney. for nothing
else, he has brought attention to the problem in many global forums. and it's not like your going to shut down the oil industry overnight. this is
going to take years and years to get off the teat of black gold. and the burning of other fossil fuels is just as bad. chinese people living in
beijing have masks on during days of pollution clouds hanging in the air. even if warming is not all caused by man...the toxic fumes we all are
breathing in, will just get worse if we do not do something to curtail it.

and as far as al gore being a hypocrite?...he finally was able to put solar panels on his roof in june of 2007,....why?....zoning laws where he has
his house didn't permit it...he has been trying for years to get them changed. i found this out in 2 minutes on google...c,mon budski...your better
then that, i like reading your posts.

Originally posted by melatonin
Maybe I was too opaque. You post an article suggesting 22,000 scientists suggest something. Someone calls the article out on it, asks where the
evidence for this claim is. You suggest they should prove there isn't 22,000 scientists blah, blah.

So its because of zoning laws that Al Gore flies around in a carbon spewing private jet and lives in an an energy hogging 20 room mansion?

Al Gore wants to make the average human living standard the
equivalent of a caveman's but yet he himself gets to live lavishly. Seriously I am sick of these "global warming" pushers trying to shove taxes,
higher prices, regulatory controls, and all manners of fascism down my throat while they get to live in first class.

When Al Gore and his ilk start living in huts and riding around in horses, maybe I will acknowledge that what they say has some meaning but this "do
as I say not as I do" crap does not lend one bit of credibility to his message.

I'm a bit new to this subject, so forgive me. Haven't kept up on global warming the last few years.

But anyhow, I'm a bit confused...

Budski, these 22,000 scientist-

On one hand you say they believe that the sun is the cause for GW.

Then when asked to show proof of these scientest.

You ask Jimbo to do your work and prove there aren't 22,000 scientist who don't buy into gores theories (which aren't aven that it's the suns
doing) if I'm following right? Even if I'm not and it's Gores stance that the ferocity and frequency of hurricanes and Natural disasters is
increasing because of the sun, it still doesn't give you the right to table turn on him, and make him provide evidence. This is Your thread after
all.

Either way it is an important discussion, and I'm glad you brought it up Budski, I just hope it can be discussed in a calm, manner, and some light
can be shed on what is really going on, because what's more important than our Earth? I mean I have a daughter, that i hope one day will live to be a
mother, and a grandmother ect.

We all are screwing the environment one way or another, I doubt anyone hands are completely clean. Except for a few hundred thousand that actually
live soley off the land, without electric, or gas. And that is only a drop in the perverbial bucket that is the population of our Earth.

Changes need to be made or else...There will be no where for us to discuss what changes should be made.

I'm gonna read up on some of this, because it's very important, and also very interesting. I'd also like to get info outside the web, for some
reason it seems more credible, as on the web anyone can dress up a cheap lie and make it look like an expensive one that requires reading, and there
you go a good half hours time wasted.

Can Budski, Jimbo, or anyone else here. Melotonin reccomend some books for the laymen, who is just getting started in GW, I don't care how old they
are. Well I' don't wanna go back too far, lets try and keep these books within the last couple decades, unless there are books that are so
groundbreaking that an exception could be made.

Thank you if any of you can make an unbiased list: Sheesh, I have to laugh at myself at that last sentence.

Of course it's gonna be biased. Budski's list will be books that are anti-Gore.

Thats not a shot at you at all budski, I very well may read every book out there, and come to the same exact conclusion as you. However, I'm looking
for fence sitters right now, who can reccomend stuff to me, you know a couple books pro one side, and a couple pro another side.

If anyone here can do that, budski perhaps, I'd be greatly appreciated. If not I understand. It's probably best I do my own research and see where
it takes me yes?

I'll star and Flag this post, just for the mere fact that is one of the most important things faceing us as a species(and because Budski's avatar
rocks)

And not only has "GW" been put on the way, way back burner, due to the War in Iraq,and the other dozens of political issues, but the War in Iraq is
not helping the envoronment in an way shape or form. If we only knew what was in each of those bombs we drop, and what lingering effects they have on
the atmoshphere..., I think that would raise some ears. As well as HaRP, and all that. Hey maybe the government elite's answer to GW, is population
reduction. if one though about it it's actual a good idea, cruel as Satan himself (but I would put that past G.Dubya's administration.

Heck lets thin out the population a good deal, and that will in turn lower the usage fossil fuels and other things that affect the atmoshpere, and
propogate GW. It's a simple plan, and fairly easy to accoplish, The hardest part would be killing 1/3, or 2/5 of the American population. but they
are working at that, as we speak.

They would love to see an revolutionary uprising, where we are all considered terrorists! Oh man, shoot on site. (due to the atrocities done to the
Constitution immediately after 9-11.)

A real president president would have calmed the people and took a deep breath and stepped back, like so few brave House Members did (now they are
heroes, , back then they were terrorists), go figure. Taken his time, 6 months at least, I woulda reccomended more, But no bush he had it in his eyes.
He also knew that if he gave the very smart american civilian a chance to look at the evidence of 9/11 the percentage of U.S. citizens back a war in
Palastine/Iraq, woulf have dropped under 50 %, closer to 35% if we had a good 6-9 months to look at exactly what happened on 9/11.

We try any sory of revolution, and they Will take out 1/3 of the American population in the course of 6 months.

Sorry if alot of my post sounds naiive, again I am a newbie in this area, I used to be into it back in the mid 80's but lost touch due to poor life
decisions. But I would like to contribute, as much as I can even if it's very little.

I'f anything We outta take Dr.Ron Paul as our leade to some desert island, andlive off the land, bring all the neccesarry tradesmen who can build
houses, replicate guns and ammo. and build up a defend and call ourselves...damn I read it in another thread it sounded great but anyway. I don't
like any of the big 3, or 4 that are gonna be elected. They are just as sick as Bush, and will continue to do this nation hard.

If only For a hanging Chad....History would have been re-writting in momumnetal ways.

Sorry for derailing the thread, but, ya, I don't like GW, if we can learn to live as one with the planet we have no dusiness being here, and the
planet itself will dispose of of like a dog shakeing off his fleas. There's a creat George Carlin Skit on it.

Denial has of course become highly popular for those who seek to only benefit themselves ( good to see another bush stooge starting another thread) -
however the science is undeniable - and has been for over twenty years - all that we are dealing with now is the desire to scrounge out a buck from
our children's future. It really doesn't get much darker.

You can put up a thread on ATS and hope to look after your corporate cronies, the "K STREET GANG", influence the masses by further deception , but
you might as well try and convince me that the earth is the center of the universe, there is no evolution only gods design, and all the other Bush
garbage that gets fed onto this site by Bush Stooges.

OR

You can pick up any peer reviewed paper from the last twenty years which accepts it as an undeniable fact. The last IPCC report 2007 ( well beyond Al
Gore) rejected any non peer reviewed climate problem prior to its commencement in 2005 despite the FACT that moulons in the Greenland Ice sheets were
known to be exacerbating polar ice melting 5 times faster than the report considered - meaning - sea levels WILL rise by well over 1.59 cm instead of
the 30-80cm projection most gevernments are planning for.

The report did not take into account the reality that the antartic formed when previous levels of CO2 DROPPED to 450 p/m - we are looking at
stabilisng at 380 and wil hit 450.

If Greenland goes we will get a 6 meter rise, if antartic goes a 60 meter rise.

But you Stooges don't care about science, or facts, or concesnsus, merely trotting out the Bush - Cheney agenda and spreading propaganda that every
climate scientist on earth is LYING.

How can you even justify such a crazy idea, that every scientologist on earth working independently have come up with the wrong conclusion becuase you
just "reckon" Gore is lying. Gore has nothing to do with it - he is not a scientist, he is relaying what they are saying.

Global warming is not a debate, its happening, direct your angst at those who are agents of disinformation - scientists are trying to help you, while
all you do is help yourlself to our childrens future - there is no greater shame, nothing darker or more sinister that I have ever come across than
those who would presume to convey the message that there is nothing wrong, business as usual...........truly the heart of darkness - the black hand of
Bush Agents at work on ATS.

Originally posted by audas
But you Stooges don't care about science, or facts, or concesnsus, merely trotting out the Bush - Cheney agenda and spreading propaganda that every
climate scientist on earth is LYING.

Last I checked, Bush jumped onto the GW bandwagon. Who is a stooge of who now?

The man-made global warming theory is just another method where political and financial elites can gain a greater control of us unwashed masses.

If you really believe that CO2 is a pollutant however, are you going to show us your concern for the environment by ceasing your respiration?

Even though CO2 levels have increased given the data, the effect is neglible. The 800 pound gorilla in the room is water vapor.

However, the most potent greenhouse gas is water, explains Shaidurov and it is this compound on which his study focuses. According to Shaidurov,
only small changes in the atmospheric levels of water, in the form of vapour and ice crystals can contribute to significant changes to the temperature
of the earth's surface, which far outweighs the effects of carbon dioxide and other gases released by human activities. Just a rise of 1% of water
vapour could raise the global average temperature of Earth's surface more then 4 degrees Celsius.

The role of water vapour in controlling our planet's temperature was hinted at almost 150 years ago by Irish scientist John Tyndall. Tyndall, who
also provided an explanation as to why the sky is blue, explained the problem: "The strongest radiant heat absorber, is the most important gas
controlling Earth's temperature. Without water vapour, he wrote, the Earth's surface would be 'held fast in the iron grip of frost'." Thin clouds
at high altitude allow sunlight to reach the earth's surface, but reflect back radiated heat, acting as an insulating greenhouse layer.

Water vapour levels are even less within our control than CO2 levels. According to Andrew E. Dessler of the Texas A & M University writing in 'The
Science and Politics of Global Climate Change', "Human activities do not control all greenhouse gases, however. The most powerful greenhouse gas in
the atmosphere is water vapour, he says, "Human activities have little direct control over its atmospheric abundance, which is controlled instead by
the worldwide balance between evaporation from the oceans and precipitation."

20 years, huh? wow, I can just imagine how you will spin it when we return to another mini-ice age like we had in the 1840's - but thats one of those
'aw shucks' moments for you 'scientists' since the first oil was drilled in American until 1859 in Pennsylvania, and the first automobiles were
made in the 1880's...

must have been all those wagons and carts spewing carbon emissions and poisoning the ozone layer... and I am sure even back then, you can find a way
to prove big oil and GWB were to blame

Oh, my man Budski. you are better than that.
Maybe I should have read the whole thread because I'm sure someone pointed out that Gore has been fighting this windmill since I think the late
'70s. This is a "cause" for him. It is not motivated by anything else.
If he is wrong than he is wrong but he isn't doing it to get into the WhiteHouse or to sell some books and movies.
Gore would have been 10000000% better than Bush. 5 people put Bush in office. 5!

Oh, my man Budski. you are better than that.
Maybe I should have read the whole thread because I'm sure someone pointed out that Gore has been fighting this windmill since I think the late
'70s. This is a "cause" for him. It is not motivated by anything else.
If he is wrong than he is wrong but he isn't doing it to get into the WhiteHouse or to sell some books and movies. Gore would have been 10000000% better than Bush. 5 people put Bush in office. 5!

Nola,
I wish it were just the hanging chad. It was the Supreme Court.
I just had to read the "Bush v Gore" opinion for my Con Law exam and I just want to PUKE. How did we let this happen? How did we let 5 partisan
frackers take us into 4 years of hell. (the next four are on the dipshoots that voted for him....ummm, actually it is more the fault of those lazy
assess that said "I'm not going to vote, it doesn't matter."
.......Gore believes what he is saying...no moron could fight for a lie for this long if they didn't believe it. So if he is wrong than crucify him,
but to say that he is "faking" or "lying" or has some nafarious goal, well you might be buying into some MSM or other misinformation.

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