To be honest, what could they really do? Who is out there right now that can help this team? Holliday and Halladay are not available. Manny is staying put, the Phillies can’t match the Rays prospects in order to deal for Bay. What is out there to trade for? (within reason)

Is Ron Mahay really the difference between a successful and terrible trading deadline? He’s Ron freakin Mahay! They can still get another loogy in the next couple of weeks. It’s not like everyone else in the NL East made any moves

keyword is WAIVERS. you want to leave that to chance? i dont. tahts a risk/gamble. youre hoping that people will be out there. sure, they will be guys out there. but theyre waiver-wire people. theyre INFERIOR. they got lucky with lohse and moyer.

stars get traded, not waived. dont give me that mediocre bullshit.
you must WANT to be mediocre. because thats what the waiver-wire is. mediocre bullshit.

kyly lohse was OK for us, and when he left he got REAL pithcing coach who made him into a monster. moyer is just there. hes ok, better this year than he has been, but not a world -beater at all.

I think deep down we all knew that the Phils wouldn’t trade for anyone, so no one should be surprised. I’m with Griffin – I don’t think there’s anyone out there that the Phils could have reasonably gotten without giving up some key pieces. Let’s count our gains here – no one else in the NL east got significantly better. We can beat the mets and the marlins with the team we have now. Let’s just hope all our guys play to their potential…

Well it’s 4:10, and the Gillick shot us once again in the heart..As much as I love this team, I’m sorry to say that we don’t have what it takes to go all the way this year. Slowly, but surely we’ll fall somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd place in the NL East by the end of august. What a disaster.

With all the moves the Muts and the Marlins made, we can’t possibly win the division we’re currently leading. It’s not like Gillick could ever get someone after the deadline who could help us (Moyer). We should all just give up.

If you want to knock the front office for not drafting well and not having the prospects to trade for Sabathia, then fine. But what were they supposed to do today, did I miss something?

ya EB, get rid of fuckin Montgomery and the other 8 or 9 owners the Phils have that are too afraid to come out of the woodworks. Sell the team already to someone committed to winning. There would be many bidders. SELL SELL SELL, give us a winner.

yeah, ESPN is now reporting Manny to the Dodgers. Let’s all remember that although Manny is still a very good hitter, he’s not ’04 Manny anymore and he agreed to waive his no trade clause as long as his new team agreed not to pick up his option thus making him a free agent at the end of the year. So it’s 100 at bats of Manny only.

I agree, Montgomery is just not committed to winning the way Ed Snider is. You can tell when he talks, he’s more concerned with making a big profit for the owners than in bringing a championship to this town. I suggested last year we start a grassroots movement to buy the team. There must be some wealthy people around town who are sick of this loser management, let’s all chip in what we can(Icould swing maybe a couple hundred bucks-haha). Seriously though, something’s got to change or we’ll be waiting another 30 years.

We could at least bring golson up I hear he’s a pretty decent prospect and a good base runner. If were going to use taguchi just to run like we did michael bourn last year it would be a move I would favor but his arbitration years would come faster and the phillies are trying to save money instead of fielding a winning team. We had plenty of chances to bring burnett or harden in but we chose blanton who was 5-12 with an adam eaton e.r.a in the biggest park in baseball

The Phillies and Mets did not have to give up much for any of these players! Pudge, Nady, Marte, Bay & Manny all for average prospects? You have got to be kidding me. I quess the Mets and Phillies management really don’t give a Sh*t if they win a championship or not. Go MARLINS!

The Yankees gave up a couple of their top-10 prospects to get those guys. Nady is overrated, Marte is good.

Pudge wasn’t what either the Mets or Phillies needed.. both teams were looking for bullpen help.. but figured that its not worth trading prospects (who they think may play next year) for a situational reliver.. i can’t say I blame them

The Tigers are contenders and wanted bullpen help NOW. If you offered them J.C. Romero, they would’ve given you Pudge, but that doesn’t make sense. Pudge isn’t even that good anymore, he’s a slight upgrade over Ruiz and pitchers hate pitching to Pudge and love pitching to Ruiz.

MF, could you explain to me how the Dodgers hit a home run? What do they need Manny for? They’re one game over .500. They stink. They have one more win than the A’s. They gave up 4 prospects to get Manny for 50 games, when, even if they made it to the playoffs, would be knocked out in the first round.

Exactly what they said yesterday…… their on players getting more consistent, the way we all expect them too, is the most crucial thing for this team.

more pressing than which rental players they get, is now what their plan for Burrell is.. and since they didn’t trade Golson, we need to watch him closely in the 2nd half and see if he cuts down on his K’s at Reading.. they know he has the speed and defense to play in the Majors right now.. his stick needs to come around

Don, I agree with you – Golson’s development at this point is crucial. If he is still having a hard time at AA come the end of the year, the Phils may try to re-sign Burrell, but I doubt they’d go for more than 3 years unless they want to use Golson in RF at some point or trade bait. Pat’s not getting any younger, but the prospective FA outfielders are shitty, so they are going to have to do one or the other. Golson’s development will determine if they make a serious effort to resign Pat.

Dodgers hit a homerun because they gave up 2 minor prospects that the Mets or Phillies could of gave up to get him. I don’t know about the Phillies fans but if the Mets gave up 2 minor prospects to get Manny and “his attitude” I would love it cause that shows the fans that the owners WANT to WIN!! And Manny makes any team he is on better!!!

Why should we change anything, since we won the World Series last year with this same team??? ……………………………….Oh, we didn’t. And other teams may themselves better?? Maybe we should have made a move. But still, GO PHILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I posted this in the other forum, but some of you may not know how waivers work, so I’ll repost it:

The Waivers system works like this, in a nutshell to those of you who donâ€™t know. Unlike what Geoff is suggesting, players arenâ€™t â€œwaivedâ€ in the traditional sense that the team cuts ties with them. The Phils could put Ryan Howard on the waiver list (they can put up to 7 players a day on waivers). They still own and control the player. That player is essentially on â€œwaiversâ€ for 48 hours, and other teams within that division can select them. In other words, if the Phils put Brett Myers on waivers, any other NL team (in reverse order depending on record) can claim him. Then, once a team claims him, the Phils and that team have another 48 hours to work out a trade. If it falls through, the Phils can put him back on waivers for another 48 hours, etc. At any time, the Phils can pull the player back off of waivers. This is usually done if a team tries to block a trade. For instance, if the Padres tried trading Maddux to the Mets, any team in the NL with a worse record could block it by claiming Maddux. In other words, the Marlins could claim him. If that happened, either the Marlins could work out a deal with the Padres, the Padres could take Maddux off of waivers, or they could wash their hands of Maddux altogether and give him away (for nothing) to the Marlins. If a player clears waivers in that league (nobody takes him), then it goes to the opposite league, where the same process takes place. If the player clears waivers there, then the team (Padres) could do any kind of trade imagineable that they wanted to do with him with any team they choose. Hope this helps.

Youâ€™d be surprised at how many â€œexcellentâ€ trades have been made over the years with big names after the non-waiver deadline. The new deadline now is August 31 for waiver trades. I can think of several trades – David Cone, Jose Canseco, Jeff Kent, Jamie Moyer, etc were all traded through waiver trades in the past 10-15 years. And you can bash Moyer all you want, but the guy has 240 winsâ€¦thereâ€™s not many pitchers around with that many right now.

Randy Myers was another one that was a snafu. The Blue Jays wanted to trade him, but the Padres snapped him up preventing him from going to a competitor. He sucked for them, and in the end, the Pads were on the hook for the rest of his salary. Manny was waivered in 2003 but nobody took him because they were scared of his salary at the time. Tony Batista was waivered by Toronto in 2001, but the Orioles worked out a deal and he ended up being very productive for them. So, no, Geoff, theyâ€™re not all bums that are available through waivers.

what did the marlins do? pick up arthur rhodes? good luck with that florida.
how about we stop complaining the phillies didn’t trade for a reliever… when they have had one of the best bullpens in baseball all season. no starter? there wasn’t anyone worth while available. but a hitter! we need a hitter! how about the guys we have i don’t know… start hitting? wouldn’t that be good enough?
i guess not. i guess i have to complain that gillick is screwing us over after putting together a team that’s in first place up to this point. that asshole.

Griffin, I agreed with most of your points until your one about it being a great trade for the Pirates bc of LaRoche restocking the system.
Are you nuts? He is going to be there everyday 3B before the season is up! Brandon Moss was the most impressive part of the deal going to Pit, thats why it was a great trade for everyone. Do you realize that the Pirates drafted 3B Pedro Alvarez 2nd overall this yr and Andrew McCutchen in their system. Their system was fine

thank you griffin. that makes two of us who won’t be ripping our hair out and whining and whining when jason donald becomes a solid shortstop or third baseman and we traded him for tim mahay, who was decent for a month or two.. .didn’t help the phillies win the world series and then was 38 in the final year of his contract and his arm fell off.

Tom/Griffin, I agree with both of you. Sometimes the best trades were ones that were never made. You know Boston kicks themselves over Hanley Ramirez & Jeff Bagwell (who was traded for none other than our Larry Andersen).

Actually, more on the Bagwell / Andersen trade that people may have forgotten. Boston wanted Anderson so freakin’ bad for bullpen help during the stretch run towards the playoffs. The trade went down a day or two before the WAIVER DEADLINE (end of August), and although Andersen pitched well and helped them win the Division, but they were swept in the ALCS against the A’s if I remember right. And then Andersen was a free agent. Bagwell went on to do a pretty decent job, I think most would agree…and that’s how I see some of these ridiculous “give them anyone” trades that oftentimes come up on these sites. Maybe I’m just a little more gun-shy at pulling trades than some of you may be, but I’m a little older than 24 or 25 and remember a lot more shitty ones that have happened over the years like the Andersen/Bagwell one than good ones. I don’t want to see us go down that road and mortgage the next few years, which could be very good.

yeah, I think some people are mad and wanted the Phillies to “just do something” but if you start thinking about it, there was nothing of significant value that would’ve made sense today.
When the best pitcher to be traded at the deadline is Arthur Rhodes, that tells you what was out there.

No one to get?! – it seems to me that Boston just traded a 1st ballot HOFer, PLUS a high-end OF prospect and a reliever to get a guy who is slightly better than Jayson Werth. It seems to me that we could have had Manny either for Werth straight up or for Werth & Donald (BOS needs a SS badly).

Pete, Jason Bay is more than “slightly better” than Jayson Werth. Maybe we could have had Manny for Werth and Donald, for all we know the Phils offered it but Boston didn’t want it. You can say we’d be better with Manny, but we’ll never know. I for one do not agree. He may have had more HR’s, RBI’s, and hit for a better average than our other RF’s will in the next 50 or so games, but to get a clubhouse cancer who is an ass (nobody within their right minds can say he’s a team player and a “good guy” go have around the clubhouse) for the short term and give up on guys like Werth and Donald (and their future) is not worth it in my book.

Is Bay better than Werth? Yes. Is he leaps and bounds better than Werth? I don’t think so. Bay is perceived to be more valuable, so maybe a straight-up trade wouldn’t work. Then again, the Sox didn’t trade for Bay straight up, they added in TWO PROSPECTS and are going to eat Manny’s ENTIRE 2008 salary. If the Phils offer Werth and take the salary, that looks pretty attractive to me if I’m Theo. If the Phils offer Werth, Donald, and take the salary, that’s clearly better than the deal Boston pulled today. If the Phils really wanted to do it, offer Werth and Marson.

The clubhouse cancer schtick is overplayed with him. He rags on management (the Phils could use more of that) but not his teammates (or, for that matter, the fans). I think it’s totally overblown in the situation he would have been in here. How disgruntled could he get in a 2-month playoff race? He’d be happy just feasting on NL pitching and hitting in CBP. As for “giving up” on Werth and Donald, trading them isn’t about that at all. Donald is clearly not going to contribute anything to this team in the short- or medium-term, unless Rollins retires, has a career-ending injury, or gets traded. Donald’s value to us is as a trade chip, period. Werth is a solid RF but is so clearly outclassed by Manny at the plate it’s not even open to debate. The one reason I can see not to get Manny is concerns about defense, especially switching him to RF. That risk is worth the offensive reward to me.

Jaime, sit here for another twenty years and keep playin the “content phillies fan” routine. It wont last. This team is two years away from breaking up, and deals need to be made now. The phils prospects are lowly regarded, by scouts who watch them everyday. When was the last time anyone watched these guys everyday?? We all watch the MLB club everyday and know that they are f ing good. I have no interest in Manny, but they need another reliever, and could use another bat. How about a third basemen?? Pedro has a sore back, and that does not get better, plus he cannot hit. I liked Beltre here. THe thing is, they could have made moves to get better, but like Jaime, they are in love with prospects that everyone else thinks are pretty ugly. Look at your 1984 topps collection of olympic players and tell me how many are all stars??? Marson and Donald should be trade tool now while they are hot “olympian” players.

As one can see, although Werth is decent, he is nowhere close to Bay. Bay had a bad year last year, but is otherwise consistent. Werth has not shown Bay’s numbers in ANY YEAR he has been in the bigs. It’s a moot point since the trade never happened, but nevertheless, Werth has not even proven himself to be an everyday player when Bay has two All-Star appearances and the ROY. I think if I were Theo, I’d rather have Bay. Sorry. Switching over to the new blog.

John, it’s Jamie not Jaime. I’m not of Hispanic origin. That aside, I’ve been a Philly fan for over 20 years already so it’s not like I just came here on a spaceship. I never said I was content, but if you actually took the time to read, I said sometimes the best deals were ones never made. Someone who understands the game beyond what is played on the field may understand that, but apparently you don’t. You, John G, seem to think that we must trade away prospects to appease you right now. I know all too well that today’s Jason Donald may end up being tomorrow’s Kim Batiste. Then again, you may not even know who Kim Batiste is — I don’t know. However, today’s Jason Donald may end up tomorrow’s Hanley Ramirez. If it makes sense, I say do it. I just didn’t think Manny to Philly or many of the other silly concoctions some of the others came up with were either. Does that make me less of a Phillies fan than you, or just a realist? I don’t know. I like the prospect of Beltre coming here as well — for the right price. You seem to forget that if we give up all of these guys (Donald, Carrasco, Marson, et al), who are we going to have two, three, four years from now? Nobody. That’s who. Just a bunch of 30 somethings and expensive free agents. And that’s why we have shit in our farm system with the exception of low level, which may never pan out. We have to restock our system, and the only way we’re going to do that is by not shipping every damn one of them off in these crazy fucking trades people keep coming up with. We all know that we don’t have an unlimited supply of $$ like the Muts and Yankees do, so we have to do the best with what we got. The minute we go signing a bunch of late 20’s to mid 30’s ballplayers for $8-20 MM a season (see Jenkins, Geoff; Eaton, Adam), the less money that leaves in the coffers to get good FA’s. That is why a good farm system is essential to every club – you have to be able to fill those roster spots with cheap players who are not yet arbitration eligible, or those that are but aren’t eligible for FA.

Does anyone here actually think the Phils, as they are constructed now, can win the WS? Just because the Mets didn’t make a move and the Marlins only made a minor one does that improve our chances of a WS title? Is that a valid excuse for the Phils not making a move?

We keep talking about our untouchable prospects who are going to make us better for years to come. These supposed hot prospects are only hot in the Phillies’ mind. We don’t have a single minor leaguer rated in the Top 100 (Baseball American).

Why not trade or at least offer to trade these guys while the illusion is there. Good pitching could be had if the Phils were deal these ‘hot’ prospects. CC and Harden both got dealt.

no it isnt an excuse. they have no chance to win the world series, how about that? nobody think they can win the ws.

what really bugs me. they needed a veteran bat, and a HALL OF FAME catcher was available for a relief pitcher, and they said openly ” we have no interest in pudge rodriguez.” what? hes a HALL OF FAME CACTHER!! hell CALL A BETTER GAME THAN ANYONE WE HAVE!!!

if you cant get cc, then get harden, if you cant get harden, get hallday, if you cant get hallday, get burnett.

its not, cant get cc, get blanton and quit.

legitimate organizations dont do that. you keep trying to get the best guy out there. thats how this shit works. you win championships by getting the best players on your team and getting them to play as a unit. mediocre players DONT WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS FOR YOU.

i think the real illusion here is that there was much that the phillies could have done by 4 pm today. would replacing pat burrell with manny ramirez have put this team over the top? of course not.
teams don’t just go and trade their best players because you throw prospects at them, no marquee pitcher outside of sabathia and harden was available. they got outbid on sabathia and if harden gets hurt at any point this year (if he doesn’t this is probably the year the stars align for the cubs anyway) they look pretty smart for not dealing for him don’t they?
it does matter what the mets and marlins do, or in this case did not do. once you make the playoffs crazy things happen (still wrapping my head around the 2006 cardinals), that’s the first goal.
from what i recall of the baseball america top 100 prospects at the start of the year the phillies had 3 people on it, one of whom was cardenas (i think the other two were savery and carrasco)…. and donald and marson will almost assuredly be there next year.

Geoff, Pudge in 2008 is not Pudge circa 1990’s. He has 5 home runs and 32 RBI, and over the past four years has had 14, 13, and 11 HR’s. And we were looking for bullpen help, so why would we give away a reliever that we need just to get another catcher? We can get by with Ruiz and Coste through the year – they may not hit for as good of an average as Pudge, but they will get as many (or more ) HR’s and RBI’s.

…what? carrasco is still really young, and he and marson will both be on the opening day roster next year so that’s a moot point.
donald is blocked so they’ll either trade him eventually or he’ll move to third… but 24 isn’t old (consider that utley and howard both had late entries into the majors because the phillies kept them down for too long)… golson is … golson and is older because he’s not going to ever pan out.

Geoff, Ruiz is much better than Pudge. 🙂 Marson will be up in a month, and he’ll be the starter next year. Who knows, he could be the next Pudge. Fred, 23 and 24 is not necessarily old by any means – many players drafted out of college don’t hit the pros until 24-25 anyways, so these guys can certainly make it with plenty of time to spare.

I think you’ll see Carrasco, Marson, Donald, and Golson joining the big club in September. At least Golson and Marson. Jenkins is probably hitting better than what Golson could do, since he has bat trouble. That’s why his development this year is so important. If he doesn’t get it together this year, next year will be his last chance. They won’t resign Jenkins after next season and Burrell may be gone.

Fred, get serious. Donald, who is the oldest, was drafted in 2006. He has played about two full years in the minors, and moved from low A in 2006 (after finishing college) to A and A+ in 2007. He’s been at AA this year, which is not that out of the norm. Marson was drafted out of HS in 2004 (the same year as Happ), and he’s just now hitting the majors. He’s not that far behind, but the Phils don’t want to make a catching change this late in the season (and for good reason). The staff doesn’t need a 22 year old rookie to come in during a pennant race to get used to the staff. That’s what spring training will be for.

I can’t believe the full-throated defense for the front office. They did not even attempt to get Rich Harden. Will he break down? Maybe. Will Bastardo and Carrasco ever pitch in the majors? Maybe. Given the sack of crap Beane was willing to accept for Harden from the Cubs (heck, Beane even threw in a reliever with a 1.10 WHIP), I can’t believe the price would have been too high from the Phils. Certainly what we gave up for Blanton would have gotten it done. But why risk it on a #1/2 pitcher who MIGHT get hurt? Brilliant move from our fearless FO. I’m not going to throw Blanton under the bus yet, but he is nowhere near as good as Harden.

They never appeared to make a serious run at Burnett, either. The only guy they even talked about was Bedard, probably because Gillick is in love with Mariners players. I’m actually glad Bedard got hurt, because he sucks and these morons would have paid WAYYYYY too much for him.

Geoff is right – you either pull out all the stops to win or you pack it in and build for later. If they weren’t going to load up to win this year, they didn’t have to blow the whole team up, but it would have been smart to trade certain pieces in high demand to stock the farm system. Then, use free agency or trades at the winter meetings to come back strong in ’09.

They are just praying to make it to the playoffs again to keep the fans docile enough to choke on some more ticket price hikes. They don’t give flying crap if they win the WS, or even get into it.

thanks for agreeing, llke EVERY mlb team that doesnt spend outlandish money does too. they ALL do it. if they know they wont win then they become sellers and rebuild. they dont try to fool themselves because its a waste of time. either try and win now or try and build an elite team for the future. phildelphia is sick of the inbetween

But if we build for the future and give away our stars now, we’re going to lose now anyways…right? I never said I’d be against trading prospects, because I’m not, but I have always said it has to make sense. For those of you in the cheap seats, that means not giving up too much, and recognizing risk/rewards.

Ah good…more name calling. Guess what – Harden would not have cost the kind of prospects we gave up for Garcia, nor is his salary anywhere close. And do the Phillies not have a competent physician on their staff who can conduct a physical of these players? WTF?

I guess we’d better not offer Sheets a contract in the offseason then.

right, recognizing value. maybe their prospects dont have value like we think they do. obviously, that must be the case because if they DO have value to others, taht would make gillick totally incompetent right?

Fred, Fred, Fred…you fail to recognize a couple of important points. First, who did the Rays have blocking Logoria? That’s what I thought. So they had no need to hold him back and develop him. Marson was blocked along the way by Ruiz and Jaramillo, who at the time were considered more developed. The Phils always thought Marson had more upside than Jaramillo, and I think they are right. Point is, none of us know how good these guys are/will be. It’s all a gamble, but is sure is fun debating it. 🙂

They’ve said it before already – they don’t want to bring him up at this point since he does not know the staff. How many clubs call up a rookie catcher in the middle of a pennant race? I can’t think of any offhand. They said they’re going to wait until September or Spring Training.