AAArnold, I deleted your other two spam posts in this forum, in case you are wondering where they went.

Please consider yourself warned in all sense of the term. Frivalous posts and spam are not tolerated in the Senate Chambers. Here, we stick to serious discussion and debate only.

It's been a while since I warned you last, so I'll let it go, but another such post will result in a request for a temporary ban.

This thread, however, is more along the lines of the type of thing that we could discuss in the Senate, even if a little over done. But I'll give yous some of my ideas on the subject.

The idea of a god or gods is one that goes back for as long as man has been able to maintain a culture. There are likely many things that have led up to the current belief systems that are in place in different cultures, which inlude monotheistic as well as polytheistic religions. The deaths of loved ones probably initiated the beginnings of theistic religions as early hominids began to question what happens after death and attempted to ease the fears of death.

The use of religion to explain the great unknowns probably followed and it was only logical to use these god(s) for such religions. In addition, religion was probably found to be an effective tool for creating status among society as well as establishing rules and expectations. As societies became more stratified and less hunter-gatherer, religion grew in importance.

As to whether or not a god exists, I ask this: if it were possible for an omnipotent, omniscent being to exist, would it not follow that it is possible for other omnipotent, omniscent beings to exist? If something can create a god, why then can that something not create two? Or more? Therefore, the idea of polytheism holds more weight than monotheism.

Because we don't see evidence of mulititudes of gods running around the universe doing what gods could do, it therefore follows that this type of being is rare or non-existant.

If there is only one god, than it must mean that there is no room for another god to exist. If there is "no room" for this god, then the god in question must occupy all space, all the time. In order to do so, this god would have to be a part of all matter and anti-matter within the universe.

So if there is a god, it is the universe in which we live and it includes ourselves.

Just because theres one, doesnt mean there HAS to be 2. Say i have $1. Theres plenty of room in my wallet for another dollar. But i just simply dont have another one. (i know i know... theres more than 1 one dollar bill in the world, but you get my example)

But the mere fact that a $1 bill exists in your wallet would indicate that another does exist somewhere. In examining the dollar, we find that it has a serial number and a denomination. Why serialize and quantify the object and only create one?

But the dollar bill is a bad analogy anyway.

One god in existance clearly indicates that two or more gods are equally as likely. If one was created, there had to be at least one other to create it.

The Wiccan have been around longer than Christians AND Hebrews*and don't give me that crap that it wasn't because it's mostly worshipping nature and most of its ideals are the same as it was 6000 years ago. How do I know? My friend is a druid*. Now, when Hebrews came about, the believed in a God. A single God. This of course set them apart from Wiccans. Now, when they described the Devil, what was it? A man and a goat and blah blah blah. Well, one of the main Wiccan gods is the exact description of the Devil. Now a devout Christian would say 'Well Wiccans worship the devil and the pentagram is the devil and blah blah blah'*how do I know? I once tried Wicca as a religion. I felt atheism was more my thing*. Well, the Wiccan religion has been around longer than Christianity. The Wiccan gods are older than God. The Pentagram represents the elements(Earth, Fire, Water, Air, and Spirit) and protection FROM evil, not OF evil.

I almost got expelled for wearing my pentagram because it had a red gem in it(for fire), but a red 5 point star was gang related. That and I claimed that the school was unjust toward my*I was Wicca at the time, remember?* religion, and the guy insisted on taking my pentagram from me, which I of course refused. How many Christians would hand over there cross because someone demanded it*the guy was Christian and I threw that in his face*.

Actually, there's significant evidence to suggest that Wicca is a relatively new religion, concocted by an English civil servant and amateur anthropologist named Gerald B. Gardner, who died in 1964. Philip G. Davis, a professor of religion at the University of Prince Edward Island, published a paper that argued just this and suggested that Gardner invented it in the 1950's.

Gardner claimed to have "learned" the rites from an "age-old coven of witches" that belonged to the Fellowship of Crotona... no one was ever able to locate them.

Gardner also obviously "borrowed" many of the rites from the infamous British occultist Alistair Crowley as well as other sources contemporary to him. Gardner also added his own personal touches.. he belonged to a nudist colony in the 1930's and, as many who have studied the Wiccan cult have noticed, there are many rituals performed in the buff.

Ronald Hutton (2000) did a study on pagan rites and rituals of antiquity and discovered that none of them have survived the past into the present except perhaps decorating the yuletide with greenery or celebrating May Day with flowers. Most of the rituals we've come to believe as having pagan origins are actually of the Middle Ages, such as the Maypole dance. This misinformation is a by-product of the Protestant Reformation.

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack Every time I look at this forum its all the same stuff over and over. Most of the time it's religion.

I should start a Thread on whether or not to debate on religion.

You know... I actually miss the days when you and I used to disagree...

But with the prevalance of religion, particularly the various flavors of christianity, in this great nation of ours, it's bound to keep coming up as a topic. Religion permeates every facet of our lives.. in fact, I would argue that the two biggest driving forces of man are belief and status. We find ways to believe in many things, from god(s) to UFO's to John Edwards to reality television. We all seek some sort of status in life... be it humble or grand.

Still... the 2004 election is coming..... We may yet find an opposing view.....

I almost got expelled for wearing my pentagram because it had a red gem in it(for fire), but a red 5 point star was gang related. That and I claimed that the school was unjust toward my*I was Wicca at the time, remember?* religion, and the guy insisted on taking my pentagram from me, which I of course refused. How many Christians would hand over there cross because someone demanded it*the guy was Christian and I threw that in his face*.

If I had a cross I wouldn't hand it over, but only on the grounds that he does not have the authority to take it away from me, and I believe the same with your pentagram. The cross is just a symbol, a material item that represents the most important event to Christianity. It has no mystical power and you don't need one ot be a Christian. Asking him how many Christians would hand over their cross because someone demanded put him in a spot. He could have gotten fired as a teacher for saying the above to you, but then again he was already out of line for trying to take it away from you.

Student at the Jedi Academy (www.thejediacademy.net)
My Academy alias is Ranja. I also sometimes go by the alias of tritonic.

Originally posted by SkinWalker Actually, there's significant evidence to suggest that Wicca is a relatively new religion, concocted by an English civil servant and amateur anthropologist named Gerald B. Gardner, who died in 1964.

No no no. You misundestood me. Perhaps the name of Wicca is relativley new, but the beliefs are not. Wicca is, as I stated, mostly the worshipping of nature, not this hooee fooee about pagan rituals and witches and occults.

Oops.... sorry Midnight... I accidently hit the "edit" button instead of the "quote" button without realizing it... I deleted some of your post. My sincerest apologies!

I tried to use my browser's back button to get back to your original post to copy and paste it back in, but, alas, I'm at work and on the Internet Explorer... my Opera browser at home would have handled it nicely I think.

Again, I'm really sorry... I'm answering the telephone and eating a late lunch at the same time... I just wasn't paying attention. I owe you one. Hopefully you can remember what it was that you put in the rest of your post and replace it

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Anyway, here's what I was about to post in your message:

I don't know.... there might be some commonality between Wica (the original spelling) and early pagan beliefs, but one of the points I made above is that there isn't any evidence of pagan rituals (the modes of worship) still exist in modern religions... whether it be Wicca, Wica, or christianity.

Durkheim believed that the common thread of early religions was totemism. A totem represented the group, even though it was typically of an animal (say an eagle, bear, kangaroo, etc.). So in essence, the group was worshiping an aspect of nature, but this aspect of nature is a representative of the group itself.

Joseph Campbell, in his Power of Myth series, noted that early man relied very heavily on nature and therefore engaged in rituals of worship that gave thanks to the animal that was slaughtered or hunted for food or clothing. This was so the spirit of the animal would favor the hunter/consumer and might find another life to continue the cycle. Many cultures the world over viewed the wearing or adornment of animal skins and body parts such as horns/antlers as taking on the spirit of the animal itself.

There was also much worship for the food that was grown or gathered or the resources that nature provided such as water, wood, stones (for tools), and, later, fire.

Worshiping nature is not unique to the pagen cultures, but is very intrinsic with human behavior... we see everything as having a cause or source... if it cannot be explained readily, then mythology and religion take over.

God, in my opinion, for the most part is just figment of the imagination to fill in what we dont know. We dont know what's going to happen after death, wether or not we'll be killed by a meteor, or that we have a purpose. So we make up reasons to ease our mind.

Every single major civilation had a diety/dieties. Most were different ones. They were usually created to unite the country, and usually allowed the person(s) in supreme power to say they have "Gods(') will". It has happen in almost every civilation you can name. Egypt, Rome, Old Britian, China, and Spain. Heck, you could even say the United States to a degree, with the "In God we Trust" on the pennies. Although that really isnt as bad as the afformentioned countries.

Not to say there isnt a god, it's just foolish to be blind like that. But the world's religions, present and past, usually were made because of the above reasons.

Quote:

Just because theres one, doesnt mean there HAS to be 2. Say i have $1. Theres plenty of room in my wallet for another dollar. But i just simply dont have another one. (i know i know... theres more than 1 one dollar bill in the world, but you get my example)

That could be considered ignorance. "Oh, I havent seen any other $1, so there simply couldn't be any other bills in the entire world/galaxy/universe".

The argument that god was created by man is much more believable than the other way around. I can't say with any certianty that there isnt a god or gods, but I'm sure humanities perception and preconceptions of them are very limited. How can one understand the infinite? Is a cell aware of what it is part of as a whole? Just because we are sentient doesn't mean we're capable of seeing the big picture, at least not now. One thing I can be certain of is that it is a BIG picture. It angers me to no end that I have only the capacity to understand that I am collossaly uninformed. It drives me so insane I can see how easy it would to just make **** up just to feel better, say, a religion (yeah I had a point in there).

YOU ARE DEPRIVING SOME VILLAGE OF ITS IDIOT.
"Theres two ways to go through life. Question nothing, or question everything. Either way, you free yourself from thinking."
Orbiting roughly 92 million away from a yellow sun in the Western Spiral of the galaxy is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea. 42.

A Christian bases his faith in a BOOK. A man made scripture. Why not believe in Egyptian hiroglyphics, man made scriptures made LONG before the Bible. Are they not both merely mans attempt to avoid eternal darkness after death?

Originally posted by Kain Why not believe in Egyptian hiroglyphics, man made scriptures made LONG before the Bible. Are they not both merely mans attempt to avoid eternal darkness after death?

I think monotheistic religions like christianity and islam do better jobs at answering questions and providing guidance (albeit common-sense guidance, often more relative to past cultures than present) than less complex religions or those with a polytheistic view.

Even though it is clear that christianity is actually a polytheistic relgion that mascarades as a monotheistic one (the holy trinity... three people are really one, etc.). Christianity had thousands of years to develop and in looking at the bible, many early religious practices are obvious in the old testament that are revised by the new.

If Egyptian religion did a better job of effectively answering the human need for belief, it would have dominated or been at least as relavent as christianity or islam. Buddism is one such ancient religion that has done a good job of this and I wouldn't be surprised if it is one that is growing. Buddism was, perhaps, ahead of it's time in answering the needs of humanity: spirituality, purpose, after-death questions, etc. Still, the concept of heaven -vs- hell is a powerful one in trying to maintain societal morals and values.

It seems clear to me that, as stated previously, man created god, not the other way around. However, that's not to say that there is no supreme being or god-like entity. I just do not think it is as humanity has conceptualized...

Theres no proof to me that theres a 1 million dollar bill. Prove it? You dont have 1, i dont have 1. If theres no proof, then its not real.

From your view, if theres no proof of something, it doesnt exist. That can mean anything. I know theres a 1 million dollar bill (i think... imagine trying to cash one of those) but still.. i havnt seen one, theres no proof, its not real. You see, sounds sort of dumb right?

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Theres no proof to me that theres a 1 million dollar bill. Prove it? You dont have 1, i dont have 1. If theres no proof, then its not real.

From your view, if theres no proof of something, it doesnt exist. That can mean anything. I know theres a 1 million dollar bill (i think... imagine trying to cash one of those) but still.. i havnt seen one, theres no proof, its not real. You see, sounds sort of dumb right?

Go to the treasury department in DC and take their tour they show you examples of all their bills and coins and such.

ahh seems seems Skin found a link to a fun fact sheet. well anyays you'd see that the 100 dollar bill is the largest in production.

“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”

Actually feminist Wicca is quite new, and (IIRC) is traceable to the early 20th century/late 19th century.

Of course they claim their religion is a revival of Celtic pre-Christian religions going back to the Druids (although the Druids didn't build stonehendge like a lot of people assume).

Though other wiccans refer to themselves simply as pagans, and try to trace themselves back to the pantheons worshipped by the Egyptians or the Romans.

Modern Wicca, and especially feminist Wicca (a monocentric, almost monotheistic nature religion focuses on the "Great Goddess") is termed "Neo-Paganism" the neo part indicating that its a "New" religious movement.

Religion is at least is old as humankind itself as far as we know, but of course there are all sorts of debates over what primitive religion was really like (it's hard to say since we're just interpreting artifacts).

I think one of the earliest indicators we find is that people were buried with clothing, food, and other items in a very careful manner. This doesn't make a whole of logical sense without a religious context to put it in, so the theory goes.

Okay. Let me explain something to you. Obviously you have very little, if any, experience in this subject. God has mercy. He wants so much to let everyone to go to heaven, but we're all sinners. Now you're going to say, " I told you! There's no way to go to heaven!!"

No, we're not. Jesus died for our sins, so we can go to heaven. We have to believe that he died, and beleive that we are nothing without him. How do we belive? By submitting ourselves to the fact! Most people say, "I'm fine, I can do everything myself." You have to belive that we are sinners without any way of getting to heaven without God. God controls everything we do. It may seem intimitading, but we have to submit oursleves.

Originally posted by joetheeskimo5 Okay. Let me explain something to you. Obviously you have very little, if any, experience in this subject. God has mercy. He wants so much to let everyone to go to heaven, but we're all sinners. Now you're going to say, " I told you! There's no way to go to heaven!!"

No, we're not. Jesus died for our sins, so we can go to heaven. We have to believe that he died, and beleive that we are nothing without him. How do we belive? By submitting ourselves to the fact! Most people say, "I'm fine, I can do everything myself." You have to belive that we are sinners without any way of getting to heaven without God. God controls everything we do. It may seem intimitading, but we have to submit oursleves.

I love it when people like uyou try to teach me a lesson. First off i have a fair bit of experience in this subject. what does God do? hes omnipotent right? And to be Omnipotent you must have free will, and if you have free will then no one can control you and if no one can control you then how is there a god telling us whats right and whats wrong. Now society says somethings are wrong and i complietley agree with those rules, but the rules set by your "god" are well... We have to worship God? why? if hes omnipotent then he has unlimited power and if movies have toght us anything people with power demend attention. So isnt that a "sin"? Authority, if god has "authority" over all humans then are cops "Gods"? why stop at that, call The President "God" for he has Authority over america.

Now if your reading this and your offended then first off dont reply, second, You shouldn't be in this thread.

Originally posted by joetheeskimo5 Oh my gosh. I'm about to run for my life, screaming to God, "Help!!"

Okay. Let me explain something to you. Obviously you have very little, if any, experience in this subject. God has mercy. He wants so much to let everyone to go to heaven, but we're all sinners. Now you're going to say, " I told you! There's no way to go to heaven!!"

No, we're not. Jesus died for our sins, so we can go to heaven. We have to believe that he died, and beleive that we are nothing without him. How do we belive? By submitting ourselves to the fact! Most people say, "I'm fine, I can do everything myself." You have to belive that we are sinners without any way of getting to heaven without God. God controls everything we do. It may seem intimitading, but we have to submit oursleves.

*Phew!* If that didn't explain it, I don't WHAT can. Time for a drink

Aw crap, an omnipotent omniscient God that has complete and utter control for my life? AHHHHHH!!!!...but wait..part of the reason we sin is because God gave us free will..so that means either God sins or controls out without controling us...

Also,why is it, that there is never a "middle point". Think of it, is God so petty as to only allow followers of him(no matter how evil), while letting the good and humane peoples go to a firey hell, just for excersizing thier free will? It's not like he doesnt have the power to create a new plane, hell(pun intended) he created Satan a new realm for Satan.

I belive that god is just another word for Probability, Everytime you don't kill someone or fight or do buckle your seatbelt you improve you chance of living on the best place, not heaven not hell but your life.