[quote="brightncheerful"But many more green hops are needed in beer making – six times as many as the dried version./quote]

I was talking to a home breeer last nigt, who grows his own hops. he was telling me he dried his own hops in his over - m100g at a time on 50 degrees C and takes the hops out whenb they are down 20 20g - so a weight reduction of about a fifth (not far from a sixth etc).

So if you need 6 times as many green hops as dried hops, is that merely a reflection of the respective hops' weight? - and that the amount of "hoppiness" is effectively the same? (I may have misunderstood entirely of course!)

Not sure I should comment on this thread as I'm on my second bottle of prosecco (shared) but we're on holiday, it's pouring with rain and I'm a great fan of Omar Khayyam who, I think, nailed it.

When I am sober joyous gleeIs hid from sight and not to findWhen I am drunken In my mind I mark a great deficiencyThere is a state betwixt the twainNot yet besotted by the wine - nor soberOh that it were mine, for there's true life alone to gain.

@BnCI think the title of the topic speaks volumes. 'Booze' vs 'alcoholic drinks', the title seems almost a moral pre-judgement.That positioning is the kind of thing I'd expect from my wife, when she's having an intentionally dumb/naggy interlude. She very rarely drinks alcohol, it's not a material part of her culture. Her [Eastern] metabolism lacks the enzymes to process it efficiently, so if she does drink she can get wildly drunk very quickly. Ergo, she effectively associates drinking with an intention to get drunk, which is not a good scenario for her.

It's interesting travelling around the world with her and seeing how her and my thirst clash with local cultures' views on alcohol. I find the Middle-East [etc] ridiculous, autocratic, 'how dare they judge me by their rules...' etc. We visit Scandinavia where our family/friends as is typical are [to us] HARD drinkers, and she goes with the flow, in moderation. Same as when we visit my parents who at 88/95 are not in the slightest shy with 'the booze', never have been, '''despite which''' are still entirely happy and active.

Perhaps a better question might be, why do some people seek to go beyond the buzz, and lifting of immediate burdens via drinking alcohol in moderation, towards a path of self harm via dangerous quantities of drink and/or drugs? But I suspect few of us are in a position to see the 'trade off' such people make, barring escaping something worse, and so can never rationalise it within the context of our own lives.

Why do people get addicted to heroine, because apparently it's that amazing the possible future consequences no longer matter.

Why do people get addicted to heroine, because apparently it's that amazing the possible future consequences no longer matter.

Drugs like heroin cause real physical addiction and in fact heroin is known to be the most addictive of all drugs, followed by cocaine and nicotine with alcohol not too far behind. Even caffeine is a drug of addiction and sudden withdrawal will result in physical symptoms.

So yes the psychological effects may be significant but real addiction is physical rather than just psychological.

DiamondEcho wrote:Why do people get addicted to heroine, because apparently it's that amazing the possible future consequences no longer matter.

I've never had a heroin experience, but I came awfully close to one about five years ago when I had an extreme reaction to a very heavy (medical maximum) dose of codeine (which converts into morphine in the liver). I didn't know it at the time, but I was a few days away from being admitted to hospital for something really quite nasty, and the pain was enormous, hence the decision to dope me up with the max legal dose of codeine. My doctor agrees, in hindsight, that what I was experiencing was indeed "the real heroin deal".

What I can tell you is firstly what you probably already know: that heroin/morphine isn't a party drug because it focuses you in upon yourself. It doesn't even stop the pain, but it sops you from minding the pain. (Complex brain chemistry there.) The hallucinations were, shall we say, "interesting". But the biggest and weirdest single sensation was of feeling absolutely safe when I was loaded up.

Nothing could get me, nothing could harm me. I couldn't move, but it was like a great big warm grey blanket that would keep the world away. (As described, I believe, in Trainspotting, although I've never felt the need to see it.) It certainly opened up my eyes as to why the poor, the persecuted, the hopeless and the paranoid go down the opiates road. Like alcohol on steroids. With the added hazard of an almost certain addiction. Don't want to go there again. Not when there's life-giving burgundy in my glass.

I drink for the simple reason that I absolutely love it.I guess I must be one of those people referred to by OP as consuming huge amounts.I don't drink during the week and usually go 6 days without anything al all-but when the hooter goes on a Friday afternoon.....YEEEEHA!Time to oil one's neck.

I drink beer, bottled ales mostly at home and cask ale in pubs. Today I popped into Marks and Sparks and thought I'd get two bottles of something nice for the evening. Their beer deal was 4 for price of 3 which was too many for me, and bottles were priced around £2, £2.20, boring range. So I left without beers. Sainsbury's superstore was next door but I couldn't be a**ed to go there so just drove home thinking I'm not much of an alcoholic.

I have consumed a lot of alcohol in my time...mostly beer, plenty of wine and also a fair splash of whisky, gin and vodka.

I am not an alcoholic since I always kept the the rule that I never drink on my own. I often don't drink for a few days, I have been doing dry January for a couple of years without problems too. I drink with others for the pleasure of oiling the wheels of social interaction and I can honestly say that many, if not most of my enjoyable social moments have been aided with the help of alcohol.

Unfortunately I was at the funeral of one of my drinking pals last year, he was 51 and without doubt the alcohol killed him...not a nice way to go. One of my other good drinking pals was a confirmed alcoholic who joined AA and stayed sober for 10 years before going back on the stuff, losing his job, home and family, borrowing money from me and disappearing.

I have no doubt that alcohol is responsible for much pain and suffering in the world but enjoyed in a sensible fashion can bring great benefits.

Most of the crowd I associated with for many years were serious drinkers, some alcoholics in that they couldn't not drink and often drank to excess. Over the years I found out what drove most of them to drink, a lot had had a bad relationship, mostly their fault, sometimes not. Others had bad parents or difficult childhoods. A few never disclosed the problem, maybe they just liked drinking.

One friend in particular went for rapid oblivion, pint after pint until he passed out, usually within the hour, others drank 20 pints over the evening but were in some sort of control, certainly enough to get them home. Special brew was the favoured drink of some, White Lightning the poison of others.

Sadly most are dead now, only 2 of us are still alive. The other survivor was a heavy drinker but was 'saved' by a girlfriend, she had a serious health problem for a while and he seriously cut back his drinking to enable him to look after her. When she got better he'd more or less kicked the habit. He'd go for a pint or 2 but rarely more.

I was the lightest drinker, usually because I had to drive. I'd have a pint and nurse it for as long as necessary. Not that I didn't want more, I'd wait until I got home and share a bottle of wine with the wife. We do that most nights, probably frowned upon by the health service but it suits us.

It's sad to lose most of my friends to booze but they knew what they were doing. It was obvious most of them wouldn't make old bones.

DiamondEcho wrote:Perhaps a better question might be, why do some people seek to go beyond the buzz, and lifting of immediate burdens via drinking alcohol in moderation, towards a path of self harm via dangerous quantities of drink and/or drugs? But I suspect few of us are in a position to see the 'trade off' such people make, barring escaping something worse, and so can never rationalise it within the context of our own lives.

I haven't had a drink since 2001 when I stopped to save myself and the others around me from my addiction to alcohol.

There's some evidence that genes play a part in susceptibility to alcohol addiction and certainly from my own observations, alcoholism does often run in families. Those who can enjoy alcohol without suffering it's ill effects unduly, are fortunate. Perhaps my peer group is unrepresentative but it does seem that there are many who, whilst not conforming to the image of the typical alcoholic, drink too much consistently and over time are likely to suffer the health consequences. In my own case, life without alcohol has not been without unexpected benefits; it has been very liberating, like removing shackles.

People drink for a variety of reasons, and usually it's a combination of several.

There are no doubt a few who drink solely or mainly for the aesthetic experience - you'd be unlikely to pay £5k for a bottle of wine just to feel the buzz of the alcohol.

But realistically, the majority of people drink because they enjoy the sensation of alcohol, and I'd include myself in that category. I find it relaxes me and induces a feeling of bonhomie towards my fellow man, which in my normal state of complete sobriety may sometimes be in rather short supply.

Likewise, when I was a humble employee and was instructed to socialise with important but obnoxious clients / referrers I found that a couple of drinks with the business lunch would enable me to tolerate their company and even give a passable impression of actually enjoying it. One of the best things about becoming my own boss was the relief of never having to go through that hideous charade again.

I also think that many people drink because they're shy, and it makes them feel less inhibited. Shyness is far more common than many people think, and although it's often cleverly disguised it can be very debilitating in social terms, making it really difficult for the person to interact with others. Such people often find that a couple of drinks can open them up and break the ice, enabling them to socialise more easily.

Like many others I used to drink far more when I was young. In my early 20's I would often be in the pub 6 or 7 nights a week, and as in those days lock-ins were the norm it wasn't unusual to be getting home at 3 in the morning, even during the week on some occasions.

But as I've got older my desire for alcohol has diminished a lot. I still greatly enjoy drinking, but I no longer enjoy getting drunk. I will usually go two or three days a week without any alcohol, and I can't say I miss it at all.

And on the odd occasion when I do over-indulge I find that my body's now developed a self-defence system that kicks in and sends me to sleep! Consequently, I've not had a serious hangover for years.

Having said all that, I would be extremely upset if I were told I couldn't drink at all. I really enjoy the relatively modest amount that I do drink, and I'm afraid that the prospect of going to the pub and drinking non-alcoholic drinks all night would fill me with deep gloom.

ReformedCharacter wrote: In my own case, life without alcohol has not been without unexpected benefits; it has been very liberating, like removing shackles. RC

This comment was striking, as quitting smoking felt exactly the same way to me. Like finally shedding a monkey off my back.

I have long suspected that the next generation, or perhaps the one after that, will look at our behaviour with alcohol and the massive health issues that come with it, and be perplexed by how we could do that to ourselves, much as many of our generation feels towards smokers. At least in the UK. Of course a stubbornly large 15.8% of the UK population still smoke.

I used to be in the boozer after work pretty much every night when I was in my 20s/30sI enjoyed it, and we sorted out plenty of work issues 'after hours'....Now I'm older (52) I can't handle the hangovers so it's strictly Friday and Saturday night for me. I've never been able to drink in the day - I find i go sleepy then feel rough at 5pm. The only way to handle it is to drink through 'til 'closing time' (11pm in the good old days) and that can get messy!!

I've given up drinking for months at a time (not for health reasons) and didn't feel any better - and I missed the social aspect. Not a fan of sitting in a pub drinking pop and eating crisps while friends get mellow/merry

dionaeamuscipula wrote:...I have long suspected that the next generation, or perhaps the one after that, will look at our behaviour with alcohol and the massive health issues that come with it, and be perplexed by how we could do that to ourselves, much as many of our generation feels towards smokers. At ...

DM

The difference being that all smoking is bad - there is no 'safe' level - whereas drinking in moderation* isn't harmful and may even be beneficial. Trouble is some people do seem to be wired up to drink too much, and they end up harming themselves and others

The government guidelines have been widely discredited - they were more or less made up by a committee, and are probably at the extreme low end of the safe spectrum.

AleisterCrowley wrote:The difference being that all smoking is bad - there is no 'safe' level - whereas drinking in moderation* isn't harmful and may even be beneficial. Trouble is some people do seem to be wired up to drink too much, and they end up harming themselves and others

I have an Irish friend who I hugely respect for having kicked the booze 25 years ago - and, more particularly, for not lecturing me when I reach for a second glass. But one of our recent conversations was especially interesting.

I was saying that when I drink, the first glass goes down fast and the second goes down slowly, and then I hit a pleasant plateau where I'm really only 'topping up' the vibe for the rest of the evening. (Haven't been drunk since my student days - or at least, not as far as I remember. ) But in his experience, he said, that didn't ever happen - the first drink was the inevitable overture to six or eight or ten or twenty, which was why he had to stop.

There's an odd parallel here with my giving up the ciggies forty years ago. If I could have smoked just two cigarettes a day, I'd probably still be doing it today, because dammit, they used to make me feel rather good. But I needed twenty or quite often thirty, which was why it had to end. No nicotine patches in those days, so it was cold turkey or nothing, and it took me three attempts and two years before I was clean. Ouch, it wasn't an easy time.

Still, my wife says she wouldn't even have looked at me if I'd still been smelling of tobacco when we first met. That's another thing that seems to have worked out well, then.