This is great! Can you elaborate a bit more on how one might start a bounty for a new hardware project?

As a hypothetical example, suppose I wanted to offer a bounty for an improved heated piezo toolhead for printing wax. There is no guarantee that either myself or the original developer would have any time to work on it. But we wouldn't want to exclude that possibility either. The project is documented on the RepRap wiki.

Suppose the bounty was described as "$X for printing a 1cm cube with a heated piezo inkjet, plus full design documentation on the RepRap wiki".

Could that be done? If the initial bounty is for a certain amount, and then other people say "Hey this is great, I want to encourage a solution too" can other people pile money on the bounty to make it more attractive?

MattMoses Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is great! Can you elaborate a bit more on how
> one might start a bounty for a new hardware
> project?

That is where I think we need a RepRap metaproject in Github. The metaproject would just be used to track project requests, but not host files. When someone wants to claim a bounty, the submit the URL of where the solution is, that could be on RepRap wiki, or elsewhere.

I could setup a RepRap project on Github, but it should probably be owned by an "official" RepRap person, although it may not matter. It is mainly an admin thing.

I admit there is a learning curve fro me too because I have not used Bountysource. It would be an idea to test it out with some small value bounties first!

> As a hypothetical example, suppose I wanted to
> offer a bounty for an improved
> [url=http://reprap.org/wiki/Heated_Piezo_for_Jetti
> ng_Wax]heated piezo toolhead for printing
> wax[/url]. There is no guarantee that either
> myself or the original developer would have any
> time to work on it. But we wouldn't want to
> exclude that possibility either. The project is
> documented on the RepRap wiki.
>
> Suppose the bounty was described as "$X for
> printing a 1cm cube with a heated piezo inkjet,
> plus full design documentation on the RepRap
> wiki".
>
> Could that be done? If the initial bounty is for a
> certain amount, and then other people say "Hey
> this is great, I want to encourage a solution too"
> can other people pile money on the bounty to make
> it more attractive?

Yes, I think that is all quite doable.

There will be always be subjectivity in whether the solution is adequate, but this is a trust system. If you set impossible targets, people won't bother with the system. Perhaps a good effort should be rewarded anyway, further bounties can be raised for improvements.

Who decides if the project is completed and gets the bounty? Bountysource? The person who offered the bounty??

So, to use the RepRap metaproject, would an initiator start a project by submitting an issue to git, or ... what?

It seems like a natural person to own the RepRap metaproject would be Traumflug, or even Adrian Bowyer if he could be talked into it. Maybe Adrian could start it, so it would be in his name, and Traumflug and others could help administer it...

Maybe you could set up a test version, a "RepRap proto-meta-project" and we could try out the whole sequence, including a small bounty for a trivial hardware project, and that whole process could be documented in a wiki page, to help get people on board.

We monitor the issue until it's in a fixed/resolved state. After the issue is resolved, the developer who solved the issue can come to Bountysource to claim the bounty. If you're a Backer, we'll keep you informed (via email) of any Claim activity on the issue.

How are claims processed?

When a bounty claim is submitted by a developer, the claim is put into a two week verification period. Backers are notified by email and can then accept or reject the claim.

- If all Backers vote to accept the claim, it is processed immediately and the developer is awarded the bounty.

- If any Backer fails to accept the claim, it remains in the two week waiting period.

- If any Backer has an issue with the claim, they can reject it. Claims cannot be paid out until the dispute is resolved and the rejected status is lifted.

QuoteTraumflug
Open an empty Github project? A README with at least a link to the project presentation is likely useful, of course.

OK, but won't this get awkward if I do not plan to be the developer?

What if I just get some cool idea and I say "that's a cool idea, I'd pay $X if someone figured it out and posted the plans" but I don't want to mess with managing a github project? Or maybe for some reason I don't want the files to live on github but instead the wiki, or (heaven forbid!) Thingiverse? Or maybe I want to open a bounty on an existing project that is not on git...

I like the idea of a metaproject that can keep track of little things and minimizes the effort of the person offering up the cash.

I am looking at it from the point of view of a potential funder who has money and a problem, but no time.

If you are a developer and you want to open a bounty on your own project, then of course it is no problem to start it on git and then open the bounty yourself (I think...).

QuoteMattMoses
What if I just get some cool idea and I say "that's a cool idea, I'd pay $X if someone figured it out and posted the plans" but I don't want to mess with managing a github project? Or maybe for some reason I don't want the files to live on github but instead the wiki, or (heaven forbid!) Thingiverse? Or maybe I want to open a bounty on an existing project that is not on git...

I see what you're saying, but I think the idea is that the issue has to be posted somewhere public, and the solution has to be somewhere public, but they don't have to live together. For example, you come up with cool idea X. Make a github project, and contains only a README explaining idea X. Open an issue saying "Make project X" and go open a bounty on Bountysource, referring to Issue 1 on your project Cool Idea X. Then, when they make it (and post it on their own github page, so you don't have to worry about being a developer), you close the issue and they get their money. I guess you could make it a requirement of the bounty that it's hosted in a particular place if you feel that's appropriate.

As far as your concern about managing a project, that's not necessary. If you get your end product, you got what you need and if other people want to change it or alter it, then they can fork it on github, or remix it on Thingiverse, or whatever, you are not bound to manage or maintain subsequent work on the project. The extend of the "project" you're managing is a README and an issue on github, which you can probably delete when it's complete, or ignore if no one is claiming it.

Though, I think that's the idea of the metaproject, you can open an issue there with your idea, and close it when someone has delivered. From there, where it goes depends on you and the bounty hunter. While it does require a minimum of git knowledge, it really is an elegant solution, and I can't imagine that a totally git-less system would require any less of a learning curve.

In its current state it's undoubtly awkward. Bounty lists don't show up in the wiki directly, there's no distinction between fundable bugs and other ones, bug reports typically have a different language than what attracts funding, you have to hop between at least three sites, it's limited to Github, etc, etc.

But the more important point is: it's a start! @bobc backed his discussions with actual code. That's great!

bobc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I set up a page on the wiki at
> [reprap.org] with some
> info about RepRap bounties. Any
> questions/suggestions please feel free to comment.

This is cool but I feel like it's going to get buried if this doesn't get stickied soon. No way to find it on the RepRap Wiki page and if it's not on the first page of the forum, it's going to the abyss.

Hell, I'll put a bounty up if someone can setup a RepRap page on WIKIA and make a reasonable layout. RepRap Wiki could sure use the tab and drop down features to organize the information.

Hazel1919 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a quick math-typo...
>
> 'Bountysource administer all the details, for that
> they take a 10% fee. If you pledge $110, the
> developer will receive $100.'
>
> 10% of $110 is $11 so the dev will get $99

My wording may have been loose, but the numbers were right.

If you pledge $100 to the developer, you WILL be charged $110 by Bountysource.

Bobc put up a prototype RepRap bounty tracker on GitHub and Bountysource. I worked through the process of creating a bounty for a simple hardware project, documenting it, and claiming the bounty. The whole system really works quite smoothly, and I think there could be real potential for using this to fund small RepRap hardware (and software) projects.

QuoteGreg Frost
To keep all the bounties in one place and expire them when done, couldn't we have a forum category and sticky a post with each bounty?

Yes! It would be somewhat redundant with the Github tracker, but on the other hand it would allow bounties that are not on the "meta tracker" to be tracked also. With a dedicated forum category, anyone could announce bounties for things on the meta-tracker in addition to, say, slic3r bounties, marlin bounties, or teacup bounties. I think a dedicated subforum is a good idea. I'm too much of a newb admin to create one however... I will look into it or maybe someone more expert will beat me to it .

QuoteA2
Are there any RepRap bounties right now?

Yes! Bobc has opened a $50USD bounty on a configuration tool for RepRap firmware. More info here.

Bobc's meta-tracker is still a prototype. I don't know if he wants to be in charge of the "official" RepRap meta tracker... I don't know if anyone else is willing to do it (Traumflug? Adrian? Anyone else?)... Thoughts anyone?

Who has ideas for bounties? Could we get a list going? I think if more people knew this was an option, there would be a lot of interest. For example, the other day in this thread crispy1 said

Quotecrispy1
In the case of a well-designed printer, which I think mine is, the limiting factor appears to be control over the extruded filament. Not necessarily the peak speed at which you can extrude, but the ability to precisely start and stop the flow, and modulate it around corners (the flow must be slowed as the printer decelerates to go round a corner, for example). In my case, this is somewhat exacerbated by using a bowden instead of direct drive, but the problem is still present for direct drive extruders.

In theory it is possible to compensate for these issues with firmware. This is what Sailfish does with JKN-Advance and other features. I've asked for those features to be ported to Marlin or some other RepRap firmware, but no one seems interested in undertaking this.

Would anyone be interested in contributing a few bucks to a bounty that addresses that??

I wouldn't bury it in folders. Just a forum directly beneath developers forum called bounties. The only management overhead would be someone stickying a bounty post and unstickying it after it is claimed. Bounty related discussions could also take place in the same forum but those threads would not be stickied.

Hi T3P3, there were the beginnings of a discussion about this in this thread. Personally, I think 10% is a little high (Kickstarter takes 5%) but I wouldn't mind paying the 10% for small projects, if that helped establish bounties as a model for open source hardware development. Perhaps as Bountysource gets competition the 10% figure may come down.

When you say you are "considering using this" does that mean you want to initiate the project and have others back it and develop it? Or do you want to develop it and have others back it? All options are good, of course, I'm just curious what plan you are considering.

QuoteMattMoses
Hi T3P3, there were the beginnings of a discussion about this in this thread. Personally, I think 10% is a little high (Kickstarter takes 5%) but I wouldn't mind paying the 10% for small projects, if that helped establish bounties as a model for open source hardware development. Perhaps as Bountysource gets competition the 10% figure may come down.

I don't know if the fees are really that high. If I understand the FAQ correctly, Bountysource will pay all payment processing. As I understand Kickstarter, the 5% all goes to Kickstarter. Amazon or whoever the payment processor is (in the UK it's Kickstarter themselves) will charge a payment processing fee of between 3-5%. It seems that Bountysource is using PayPal and Google Wallet, I would expect the fees to be similar for any debit and credit card based payments. (Payments via local banking transfers may have lower fees sometimes where that's possible).

However one disdvantage over Kickstarter wiith the way Bountysource works is since they are taking the money themselves, keeping it and then transferring it to an account they keep for the person who received the bounty. So the fees will be incurred even if the bounty is later cancelled or fails. Also, for those receiving bounties, depending on how they eventually cashout from Bountysource they may incur additional fees. But that's somewhat unavoidable given the need for Bountysource to ensure they have the bounties and the long time periods that may be involved. So it's not likely to change with new competition IMO. (Kickstarter is basically direct between the backer and project creator so there aren't two sets of fees involved. And they only process after the project succeeds/completes.)

Should developers be able to collaborate towards a common goal rather than causing multiple simultaneous developers to RACE so they can claim the solution first.

If I was a developer I would not want to do a lot of work only to find that another developer has thrown something together quickly just to claim the bounty early and make all
my time a waste even though I had a better solution.

As per my Compopoly approach, to maximise collaboration without losing the motivation of competition, the bounty could be split based on the value of each incremental innovation. Approved development expenses should probably be paid out of the bounty first before the rest is split up between the innovators.

@bobc & @tramflug
Well done for setting this up. Is much being done to market this bounty facility in the 3D printing media?

Would it be worth starting a crowd fund on Kickstarter or Indiegogo to get together an initial pot of cash? Rewards offered could be the bounty products produced by the community for copy shops and eBay sellers. I have some ideas for a better low cost home based 3D printer and would like to collaborate with those in the community who also want to get a best of breed product out there. For that reason, I would be happy to help with this - putting together a video, doing a bit of pr etc.