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"Magic is what makes fantasy fantastic," someone says, "you can't apply rules to them or else it loses wonder!" I respond, "Sure, but if you want to write them you will certainly want to know how they work." Writing is all about execution, and I find applying some basic laws of physics to magic systems make them more understandable and realistic. Here, I'm going to outline my basic method for developing a magic system.Column by Chaos2651Discuss it in our forums.

Messages - Turbolinux999

There was a previous thread on the possibility of a Mistborn movie and I was going to put my idea there and bring that thread back from the fourth page, but, this will do just nicely.

I don't think that a movie would do the third book(Maybe even the second book?) justice.The third book contains too much data to be played out in a movie any shorter than 3 hours.

My thought: Why not get together with the SciFi(Don't care how they spell it.) channel and make it into a six or seven part mini-series type thing? That way you can have the room to have everything feasible from the book on screen and it wont seem too long.I know that most SciFi productions center on giant snakes/bats/bugs/etc. or mythical creatures killing people, but I really think that this would be the best outlet for a film version of the Mistborn series.

When a Feruchemist stores weight, what he is really storing is not the weight itself, but something about how gravity interacts with your body. Yes, I know I explained that horribly, but my point is, Feruchemy sometimes stretches these attributes.

I'll answer this one first because it will help in answering happyman and because I was actually going to mention this in my last response but it felt tacked one. I'm glad you mentioned it.

I think that, rather than storing gravity(Which had been my idea as well and always irked me) I think that it would make more sense that Storing(I think I'm going to capitalize Store and Burn when talking about Feruchemy and Allomancy, respectively. Less confusing) in Iron actually stores the Feruchemist's Higgs Bosons rather than gravity itself. I wouldn't put it past Mr. Sanderson to have thought it out that far.For those of us who have not had an education in physics I'll give you a simple explanation of what the Higgs Boson is: The Higgs Boson is the particle that gives all the other particles their mass. It sounds odd, but it's currently the best idea we've got for why everything has mass. The more massive an object is, the more gravity it generates/space it distorts, and the more "weight" it has. It would make sense that Storing 'weight' is actually Storing 'mass' in the form of Higgs Bosons'.I have a sneaking suspicion that that is how Mr. Sanderson worked it out and he just never bothered to elaborate because he's never needed to.

Are you saying it's a deep philosophical objection because you believe in a fundamentally block universe? Why tie your imagination to that loadstone? It's just a mathematical model, and hardly the only way to view time.

It isn't a philosophical objection, it's a reasonable, rational objection. Under NO circumstance is time an attribute of anything other than itself and space. Time isn't mediated by a force boson, nor is it ANY type of force/particle. Time does not depend on matter, it's an intrinsic property of our universe and has no connection to matter at all, let alone, biological life.I understand that there are many ways to view time(Including the multiple time dimensions theories[Hypothesis'?] and whatnot), but in none of the ideas that aren't completely off the wall speculation, is time an attribute of matter.

As for my imagination, more often than not, it's tied to reality and I rather like it that way. If something is completely magical, though, I can go with it just fine.

Also, so you know, it's not my intent to be or appear hostile but I have some kind of drive for others to understand my position as it is, not the way they think it is. It gets me into arguments when I wont let something go because there is a misunderstanding, however small. Might have to do with my obsessive compulsiveness.

I age -> Time passes -> I age because time passes == Bad logicTelevisions are made of atoms -> I'm made of atoms -> I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Maybe I need to make my argument clearer.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the feruchemical attribute for atium stores the effects of time. That is, just like atium allows an Allomancer to see through time, atium allows a Feruchemist to store the effects of time. Combine this with the fact that all feruchemists age naturally (I have seen no reason to think otherwise), and we see that atium would thus logically store the effect of aging. The "Time does not cause aging" argument is then moot. If we did have a feruchemist who did not age for whatever reason (too much Breath, maybe? Interacting magic systems are fun.), presumably atium would become useless to him, under this theory.

This theory is strongly supported by Sazed's description of how atium works. He says that to be younger for one year, you would have to spend one year older. What is stored in atium is not the aging itself, but rather the time (or perhaps the internal effects of time), which is coincidentally related to aging. In this case, it would be natural aging baring unforseen events.

Gold would then store healing by storing the natural effects of the bodies ability to heal itself. Again, storing the effects of time, but now focused on the bodies temporal effects under abnormal conditions.

I hate to continue to disagree, it's starting to sound to me like I'm disagreeing just to do so.

Feruchemy facilitates the storage of the attributes of a Feruchemist, allowing that same Feruchemist to recall and utilize them at his leisure.The entire argument for Atium, or any other metal, storing time hinges on the single premise that time is an attribute of a Feruchemist. I cannot see that making any sense, ever.

Spacetime is independent of us, therefore, time cannot be an attribute of anything other than space and vice versa.

Before I respond to others I'd like to make an idea I had known.I was looking over the Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy chart in the back of HoA and that grouping for Feruchemy, while not as obvious as Allomancy, finally jumped out at me.With the mention of storing emotion from Zas678, it occurred to me that the Enhancement Metals are going to store emotion or emotion-related attributes.

In this light, it makes sense(With the emotional storage information) for the Feruchemical Metals to be labeled similarly to the Allomantic ones, but I can't come up with good names, I had a few but they melted as I typed and now completely escape me. As always; suggestions!?

Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does. Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)Time has no relation to age, at all. Age is purely biological.

I still fail to see a meaningful distinction. We experience time by (among other things) aging. It is part of our biology, true. The part that is associated with the passage of time (local time, true). It is true that we, perhaps, do not have to experience time by aging. Fantasy and science fiction are full of speculations along those lines. However, in Mistborn I think we can safely say that all known feruchemists experience time by aging. Thus feruchemically storing time is functionally equivalent to storing aging in the Mistborn world, whether you like it or not, and no amount of philosophical claptrap will change this basic fact.

And don't try to snow me with quantum physics. I'm going to defend my Ph.D. dissertation on the effects of classical chaos on quantum mechanical systems in less than two weeks. I have no respect for people who try to separate the concept of time from the effects we can see in the physical world. It's pure nonsense to consider time apart from how we experience it, simply because we have no other option.

I age -> Time passes -> I age because time passes == Bad logicTelevisions are made of atoms -> I'm made of atoms -> I am a television == The same, bad logic

A point I do want to make that was in my lost post: If Atium does(By some stretch of logic) store time for aging, then it'll be the ONLY Temporal metal because if there are others, then there would have to be different 'flavors' of time.I know you're not a biologist, but there is no connection between time's passage and our aging just because they occur in parallel.

Note: I wasn't trying to snow you, I was trying to simplify the concept because I was not aware that everyone reading and posting here were quantum physicists.

The discussion is mostly irrelevant. They called the Temporal Metals. Both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy must have powers for all sixteen metals, its illogical to think that there would be holes in the two arts.

I do agree that it is irrelevant, mostly; especially considering that the thread title is, 'On Feruchemical 'Mistings'' and not, 'The likelihood of the Temporal metals having temporal effects in Feruchemy'

While that is true, there is no evidence(So far) that those groupings(Physical, Mental, Temporal, and Enhancement) will apply to the other Metallic Arts. Everyone seems to want to apply those across the board. The only completely consistent metal is Tin. Feruchemical uses for metals obviously follow a grouping "rule", but the only Temporal metal that we know for sure is Gold and it stores health and that's definitely not time. And if it is, then we have the 'Flavors of Time' problem which makes even less sense unless Mr. Sanderson wants to make the Shards universe have more than one dimension of time, which would be interesting.Atium is a god metal, the power of the god Ruin percolated through stone and crystal in the Pits of Hathsin, if it stores time then I'm alright with that, but any other metal is just that, metal. Time is not attached to biology, if anything, it's the other way around, but there's no evidence of it.

At the moment, I am using a PalmDOC(.pdb) file on my GP2X and it works so very well.

When the book was first released(Completed) I just copied the text into a .txt notepad file but it, obviously, sucked. Then I found ManyBooks and it was great... I'm on chapter nineteen and I hate that I have to start over, but I don't want to have missed anything.Luckily, Mr. Sanderson is an amazing writer and I think it would be nice to read the finished product.

Note: The program I use on the GP2X is not the default reader. It can handle PDFs, but it does so poorly.

When I first downloaded Warbreaker I got it from Mr. Sanderson's site. The device I use to read books isn't friendly with PDF's so I Googled the book. Through it, I found manybooks.net and a copy of the book in a format that my reader worked very, very well with. Unfortunately, in a zealous glee at finding one that worked so well, I missed that it was published in 2008 and is actually v4.0.I don't know if Mr. Sanderson put it there himself or if someone did it for him but I just wanted to know if the book would be updated on manybooks.net or if I will have to go back to copying the text out of the PDF(It didn't work very well).

I, at least, interpret Sazed's comment as referring to Cadmium/Chromium, with the corresponding alloys implied by the existence of the base metals.

That is what I had thought for a while, but, obviously, I changed my mind on that. Up until now I had never considered what Ookla said... It lends new credibility to the idea...I had eventually figured that because Yoman mentioned that there were 16 metals that he knew which one it was and Sazed took that into account. I think that my second assumption is wrong.

That would make sense. If Yoman knew then someone else knew and if someone else knew then there'd have been Pulsers and Sliders all over ""unofficially"".

I suppose that makes it a toss up between Cadmium/Bendalloy and Chromium/Nicrosil... I still think that my logic is sound when it comes to that though, no one outside of the Steel Ministry, or possibly just the Inquisitors, was supposed to know of Aluminium's existence. From there it makes sense that, since none of the Enhancement metals were supposed to be known, Chromium and Nicrosil would be near the top of the 'Crap About Allomancy TLR Kept From Us' list.

If he's referring to the base metals then what two pairs of metals have to removed from the Allomancy chart as it stands at the end of HoA?Atium and Malatium, obviously, but what other metal pair has to be removed? Yoman doesn't say what the other pair is when he corrects Elend, but, with the Ruin metals removed from the chart, every metal is accounted for. I doubt that Yoman knows about Larasium or any of it's alloys. I'm thinking that, since TLR kept Aluminium a secret, it's external pair would be made completely unknown to everyone(I could see a Leecher in a group or a Mistborn burning Chromium killing the crap out of Inquisitors.)I think, logically, that the metal Yoman knew of was Cadmium and Bendalloy and the metal that Sazed mentions is Chromium and Nicrosil.

Time does NOT cause age, our own biology does. Time's passage is a side effect of us being three dimensional and is just something that we perceive happening as we pass through the fourth dimension. (It's very quantum physics.)Time has no relation to age, at all. Age is purely biological.

Zaz678:I had a feeling that he was going to go in that direction. I like it... Storing Happiness == Heartless?

echigo109:The Temporal metals. Cadmium and Bendalloy don't move an Allomancer slower or faster through time, they manipulate time in a bubble around them. Gold and Electrum don't allow an Allomancer to select a past or future to live in, it just shows them possibilities. A Feruchemical Temporal power would mean that the Feruchemist would have to store and tap time itself and would be moving through it whichever way. Unless time is a property of people and not an intrinsic property of space-time then it would take some very good story elements to justify Temporal Feruchemical abilities. I don't put it past Mr. Sanderson to come up with something, but, to me, it would be a stretch.On the second question... I'm not sure if you're talking about Aluminium storing pain or a metal that allows Feruchemical stores to be used by people other that the person who made them.A metal that allowed other Feruchemists to access stores that were not their own doesn't make sense in the same way that Temporal Feruchemical metals don't either. I could see a technology that could act as a pass through, manipulating it's own Feruchemical charge until it matched the one in the metal and then pulling the charge into it and converting the frequency(Or however the charge works) into the person's that has the metalmind. That would be cool.Aluminium storing pain is an awesome idea, how is it not? Hell, if there were some way to exchange metalminds with others, you could trick someone into thinking that the metal was a different one and make them tap your pain. If not, then it'd be a mind that you store in and never tap, still really useful.

happyman:Aging is a biological function not the state of your position on the timeline.

It's been a while since I read the Mistborn trilogy, but I was just thinking about this now. In the first book, Vin kils The Lord Ruler with help from the mists/Preservation. Why would Preservation help her? The Lord Ruler would have taken the power from the well for himself again, so why would Preservation stop this? I might be completely confused or mistaken, but it doesn't seem to make sense....

Preservation wasn't thinking very clearly at this point. It had chosen Vin as the new vessel for its power, and so she had access to the mists. I suspect that whether this access was good or bad wasn't something Preservation could really control any more.

I would say that it's less about keeping Ruin trapped than having Ruin replaced. When Vin kills Ati(The consciousness of Ruin) she tells him that it was Preservation's plan all along that a being of Preservation and Ruin would sacrifice itself and destroy both. The end of the plan(I would assume) is that someone from Terris, with all of their knowledge and slow, methodical ways of thinking would be there to take up both powers.That would also explain why Preservation specifically gave the Terris their prophecies. Leras(Consciousness of Preservation) trusted them and their ways to eventually control both powers and save the world.

I think it was in the HoA spoiler thread, but Mr. Sanderson said that the two metals that Sazed mentions are Chromium and Nicrosil and that Cadmium and Bendalloy(Cerrobend is copyrighted and has been replaced with Bendalloy) were known.I'm unsure if it was TLR that knew of them or the Inquisitors or the Obligators, but he did say that, specifically, it was those two metals.

I had thought that it was the two base metals as well when I first read it.