Linking a thread from ATS that i'm sure some of you may be interested in or already know exists.. The Liverpool FC Thread

I was watching the news reports from the youtube video I posted in an earlier post..
At 16:40 a man ina blue shirt appears and says..

Why didn't the FA give us the big end? They knew we had more supporters!

This is an important point to make note of.

When the crowds outside the grounds were pilling up into a grid lock, and with the match about to start with many ticket holders still outside the
grounds.. The police had very little option..

The police had to open the gate or there would have been one heck of a riot. To save the police the trouble of dealing with a riot and with the need
for the tax payer to cough up money to repair everything and pay for other things, they opened the gate.

With eager fans trying to get into an already packed area.. the cost of this was 96 lives...approximatley 730 injured.
So to stop a riot a decision was made...unfortunately, the wrong decision. There could have been various ways in order to prevent a riot outside. Loud
hailers could have been used to alert the fans to the problem.. the mounted police could have gotten out of the way instead of being present in the
middle of the mob.. which is initimidating in itself..

This looks to be a combination of different problems.. those problems lay with the police, the FA and the grounds staff. No communication, very little
organization anda damned poor performance.. Only for one of the worst crimes to occur..

Probably because we were treated as animals by the police at the time.
It's all very well to comment from afar but I would suggest that you can't even imagine what going to a football match was like in the '80's
unless you experienced it first-hand.
Yes, there was a fair amount of hooliganism around then (although at the time of Hillsborough it was certainly not as prevalent as several years
earlier) but if you put that into perspective that involved a very small percentage of fans. However the policing at the time certainly didn't take
this into account and treated everyone, regardless of age or sex, with complete disdain and disrespect.
Their only concern was to get fans into a ground as quickly as possible and off the surrounding streets and they didn't care how they did it.
It was inevitable that something like this was going to happen.

Why is the SYP policing itself? Why are the SYP considering what possible charges to bring.. This should be done by some other force IMO..

Manslaughter charges is a good start.. Along with a long list of other things such as changing the statements, faking evidence, general lies and
cheating and spreading wild gossip and other falsities..

When a person of authority is telling you to go somewhere, it is not animalistic behaviour to follow their guide. Plus when you're in an intense,
intimidating situation such as overcrowding, you're more likely to take anyone's lead to get out of it. Had the police been communicating effectively
they would have known that the ground inside was already crowded, and if they weren't so inexperienced they would have known that exit gates are never
used to allow people inside the ground.

I'm sorry, but you just described animalistic behaviour perfectly. The heard was following the lead of their hearder, mindlessly going where they
were told. Animals follow the heard when in an intense, intimidating stuation, mindlessly...

Like Drezden said, if people in front of you aren't moving, why keep pushing and cramming in?

I'm sorry, but you just described animalistic behaviour perfectly. The heard was following the lead of their hearder, mindlessly going where they
were told. Animals follow the heard when in an intense, intimidating stuation, mindlessly...

Like Drezden said, if people in front of you aren't moving, why keep pushing and cramming in?

I witnessed police agent provocateurs at first hand during the Miners Strike.

It was all part of the same culture and the Prime Minister of the time turned a blind eye to it all as they were enforcing her policies.
She was told of the cover up by South Yorkshire Police and she did and said nothing - that shows a wilful disregard and complete lack of concern or
interest in the people she was elected to lead - all to further her own agenda's.

When a person of authority is telling you to go somewhere, it is not animalistic behaviour to follow their guide. Plus when you're in an intense,
intimidating situation such as overcrowding, you're more likely to take anyone's lead to get out of it. Had the police been communicating effectively
they would have known that the ground inside was already crowded, and if they weren't so inexperienced they would have known that exit gates are never
used to allow people inside the ground.

I'm sorry, but you just described animalistic behaviour perfectly. The heard was following the lead of their hearder, mindlessly going where they
were told. Animals follow the heard when in an intense, intimidating stuation, mindlessly...

Like Drezden said, if people in front of you aren't moving, why keep pushing and cramming in?

edit on 14-9-2012 by AngryAlien because: (no reason given)

I am assuming you would not be so callous to wind others up about the needless death of 96 young people.

So here's some help in clearing up your obvious ignorance of what went on at Hillsborough. The first thing you may wish to note is that Sheffield
Wednesday is not a UK public holiday.

I'm sorry, but you just described animalistic behaviour perfectly. The heard was following the lead of their hearder, mindlessly going where they
were told. Animals follow the heard when in an intense, intimidating stuation, mindlessly... Like Drezden said, if people in front of you aren't
moving, why keep pushing and cramming in?

people in front were moving, how else would they of got in, it is human nature and politeness to move over to make space for someone else, there was
plenty of room for more, but not enough to be safe.

the problem occurs when there is very little space to move and people start falling over each other and all those behind start pushing/falling forward
onto those at the front, but up to that point there was enough room for others to come in and keep moving forward and find space.

you can fit numerous people in a mini, but there is a recommended limit due to safety, it was the same with football grounds, there was room for more
but if more went in it would exceed the safety limit.

it is the reason they changed to all seater grounds for leagues that attract the highest crowds, 1 person per seat then it is full, there is no chance
of overcrowding people.

I disagree that the crowd were being inconsiderate or animalistic, and the willfulness to follow authority is not considered animalistic when the
authority is in the right, that would be called anarchy, right?

Maybe i should explain this clearer, it was not until people reached the end of the tunnel and into the stadium that they would have realised the
extent of the over-crowdedness. The people behind them at the beginning of the tunnel were under the assumption (from being told by the police) that
the ground was relatively empty and to fill it quickly, so their only concern was to get in.

There are many examples that once people realised it was too crowded they tried to escape (my Dad being one of them). Many managed to climb over the
fences, although as the report suggests, this prompted police to try to stop anyone doing this. As you can see from the videos, many people showed
behaviours that are the complete opposite of 'animalistic': lifting people out of the crowd and into the less populated crowds; ripping up
advertisement boards to use as stretchers etc.

One final point - the inability to show empathy is something I would relate to being 'animalistic' more than following instructions.

The rate of people getting through the turnstiles was too slow, and there was a crush developing outside the ground as more supporters arrived, and
went through the first perimeter.

The Officer in charge ordered Gate C to be opened to relieve the crush, but crucially, did not order officers to direct fans to the empty pens
either side of the main concourse.

I have no idea how many people here went to Hillsborough before it was changed, but that central concourse leading to the centre pens was an absolute
nightmare. You can see nothing, and there is a steep slope.

Every game at Hillsborough there were stewards and Police directing fans to the side pens when the central pens became full.
Except for one match in 1989.
We all saw the results.

People can debate crowd behaviour, calling it animalistic or whatever. The fact is that through a combination of incompetence, a lack of crowd control
and Police forgetting (or not caring about) their duty of care a tragedy occurred.

Anyone who tries to find excuses for how the authorities acted that day or in the intervening 23 years needs to give their head a wobble and stop
window licking.

If some posters on here care so much about finding excuses for the authorities, they should read the report.
It wasn't just the police, it was every single organisation involved, from the FA to Sheffield Council, to SWFC, to the Police and the Ambulance
service.
Firefighters who arrived at the scene with cutting equipment and basic first aid equipment were told by senior police officers that they
weren't needed.

Some of the posters here really, really need to read the report.
I appreciate it's a long and difficult read, but it may help some here to understand that NONE of this was due to the behaviour of the Liverpool fans
that day, regardless of what type of pseudo academic spin some are trying to put on it.

maybe not the biggest cover up, but in sense it shows the types of things they are willing to cover up, i was discussing this today. it really
exposes the fact that they will cover up anything that would give authorities a bad image and they care nothing for the hurt they cause people as long
as they are not put in a bad light.

it begs the question, if they were willing to cover this up for so long, what else has been covered up.
the way every organization and the media acted in unity to cover it up also shows who is looking out for who, and it is not the public. each
organization worked together to smear or hide the truth to help protect each others image which shows me they do not work in the peoples interest or
for the people.

and we still would not know the truth if it was not for 23 years of campaigning and people not giving up. it makes me sick. all the sorry plea's i
have heard this week were a last resort no choice action to save grace, all of these organizations could of come forward and said sorry or told the
truth sooner but didn't and only did because of the release of documents, I see through their sorry plea's as nothing more than being sorry the truth
was exposed and them trying to save their organizations image.

so maybe not the biggest cover up, but an interesting insight into the types of things that are covered up and the lengths they will go to save their
image. in sense of seeing how cover ups work and what is involved this cover up is the biggest to drill home how easy it is and how it is achieved and
how those that know the truth can be ignored for so long.

There have been many cover ups, but they are all due to the same thing - they don't want us to know what really happens, and they will obstruct,
obfuscate, lie, cheat and generally stick together because of the simple fact that because they think they are better than us, they don't really give
a crap.

Until they get found out and there is a public outcry.
Then they lie some more by pretending they're sorry.

Things are moving forwards at long last.
I must say that the amount of news coverage this is getting is rather good.. but it could be a whole lot better..
That Kate and her pictures are taking all the limelight ... distraction anyone??

"The findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel have finally vindicated the families in their 23-year struggle to establish the truth.

"However, after truth must come justice. We have spoken today to our lawyers and taken initial advice.

"We will be petitioning the government, the attorney general, the Director of Public Prosecutions on all these various matters and these letters will
be going out tomorrow".

The group is now looking at three avenues to follow up. They are urging the attorney general to apply for new inquests, demanding full and immediate
investigations into criminal prosecutions and, where appropriate, applying for civil proceedings to be reopened.

Mr Hicks said: "We believe if wrongdoing, civil or criminal, has happened people should be held accountable."

He also said the families want any new inquests to take place in Liverpool and not Sheffield.

Well said mate. Problem is; on this site and I guess any forum, is that people spout rubbish without knowing all the facts. Some people hear/read one
news report and think they know everything they need to know to come on here and degrade the lives of 96 humans who only wanted to see a football
match. And I guess some just like trolling.

On a positive note, there is a campaign to get 'You'll Never Walk Alone' (it's Liverpool FC's anthem for those of you who know nothing about the
story) to number 1 in the UK charts. ATM it's number 2 on the Itunes chart.
It's only 99p and Gerry Marsden has said he will donate all monies to the Hillsborough charity.
Come on peeps get your wallets out!!!

Just a word about this myth of overcrowding, taken from the original Taylor Enquiry (subsequently verified). The capacity of the Leppings Lane End at
this time was 10'100 people. For this semi final, there were 9'700 people in the Leppings Lane End. In other words, it wasn't even filled to
capacity. The figure 9'700 has been confirmed by various means, including a head count on surveillance footage.

The problem was the opening of a single gate that caused a crush event, ordered by Duckenfield. When Graham Kelly (FA) went to the Ops Room within
minutes of the tragedy unfolding, Duckenfield told Kelly that the problem was caused by drunken fans forcing this gate (we now know that Duckenfield
personally ordered this gate to be opened). In other words, Duckenfield started telling lies immediately as the tragedy unfolded, probably to cover
his own back.

Well said mate. Problem is; on this site and I guess any forum, is that people spout rubbish without knowing all the facts. Some people hear/read one
news report and think they know everything they need to know to come on here and degrade the lives of 96 humans who only wanted to see a football
match. And I guess some just like trolling.

On a positive note, there is a campaign to get 'You'll Never Walk Alone' (it's Liverpool FC's anthem for those of you who know nothing about the
story) to number 1 in the UK charts. ATM it's number 2 on the Itunes chart.
It's only 99p and Gerry Marsden has said he will donate all monies to the Hillsborough charity.
Come on peeps get your wallets out!!!

Sorry, but facts don't lie. This has never happened at an American Football, baseball, hockey, or basketball game. This is a problem that is unique
to soccer fans, due to their obsession with the game. We don't rely on a bunch of cops to help us out with something as simple as entering a stadium
and getting a seat... 96 peaople died, I get it, but the police and stadium officials aren't the only ones to blame (i think the fans are partially
to blame). Sorry it doesn't go along with what you think, it's just my opinion...

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