Forgive me, but I'm still skeptical. I'm not convinced either way. Without confirmation from someone like a Hero factory rep, we can't know for sure if the differences are because of counterfeits or because of changes by Hero. The pens are already incredibly cheap, so who's to say that Hero wouldn't make some changes to make them even cheaper, like smaller sacs made from cheaper material? If big-name manufacturers of fancy, expensive pens can make changes to save costs, why can't a Chinese manufacturer of cheap pens?

I, too, bought a 10-pen blister pack a while back. I don't have the packaging, so I can't speak about the logo. I can say that some of them have sacs that turned milky when flushed with soap, and others from the same pack did not turn milky--so I don't think that's necessarily an indicator, unless we can prove that none of the known-genuine pens have sacs that change. And unless we can round up a representative sample of pens from a range of appearances and ages, we just can't know for certain.

Maybe there are counterfeit 616s--or maybe Hero's quality control has deteriorated--or maybe they cheapened the materials or manufacturing process--or maybe there are several Hero factories, and not all of them are equal. As far as I can tell, the truth is, we just don't know for certain.

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Forgive me, but I'm still skeptical. I'm not convinced either way. Without confirmation from someone like a Hero factory rep, we can't know for sure if the differences are because of counterfeits or because of changes by Hero. The pens are already incredibly cheap, so who's to say that Hero wouldn't make some changes to make them even cheaper, like smaller sacs made from cheaper material? If big-name manufacturers of fancy, expensive pens can make changes to save costs, why can't a Chinese manufacturer of cheap pens?

I, too, bought a 10-pen blister pack a while back. I don't have the packaging, so I can't speak about the logo. I can say that some of them have sacs that turned milky when flushed with soap, and others from the same pack did not turn milky--so I don't think that's necessarily an indicator, unless we can prove that none of the known-genuine pens have sacs that change. And unless we can round up a representative sample of pens from a range of appearances and ages, we just can't know for certain.

Maybe there are counterfeit 616s--or maybe Hero's quality control has deteriorated--or maybe they cheapened the materials or manufacturing process--or maybe there are several Hero factories, and not all of them are equal. As far as I can tell, the truth is, we just don't know for certain.

Oh, they do change models sometimes. They changed the 330 and 329 for the worse recently, certainly. The model number on them is now painted on. Hero is one of the nicer pen brands in China though, and they maintain certain standards. They aren't trouble free, but no pen company that I've heard of is.

The differences between the real Hero 616 and the fake are numerous and not sort of changes you'd make if you already had the equipment to make better.

I did eventually patch up the sac with clear nail polish to see how it'd work after that. Given the precarious nature of the fix, it's not exactly a pen I carry with me, but it can write, and it's not too scratchy. Regardless, the feel of the pen is very, very different from my Hero 616, or even my other Hero models. It very closely matches some no name Chinese pens that I have (and actually kind of like), although the plastic used is disgustingly cheap.

Regardless, knowledgeable reputable sellers, including Chinese sellers like Yespen, say there are fakes, and if you buy Heros in the markets, you can often get fakes, and you should buy them instead in department stores. The markets have fairly impressive quantities of fake stuff, actually, which you figure out when wandering through them.

I guess we don't know beyond all reasonable doubt that they are fakes, but I'd be surprised if they weren't. I think a lot of all this mess is actually the Chinese made = bad thing that a lot of Americans have, so most people will always think the worst of any Chinese manufacturer. I was definitely cured of that thought when I started cubing. Rubiks brand cubes are bad for speedcubing, while I was able to pick up a "magic cube" in a small general shop in a random narrow alley in Beijing and find a perfect speedcube.

Anyway, I'm sticking with reputable sellers, like isellpens, hisnibs, goldquills, speerbob, yespen, and ahai006. Then I don't have to deal with probable fakes and sellers who didn't necessarily realize that.

Forgive me, but I'm still skeptical. I'm not convinced either way. Without confirmation from someone like a Hero factory rep, we can't know for sure if the differences are because of counterfeits or because of changes by Hero. The pens are already incredibly cheap, so who's to say that Hero wouldn't make some changes to make them even cheaper, like smaller sacs made from cheaper material? If big-name manufacturers of fancy, expensive pens can make changes to save costs, why can't a Chinese manufacturer of cheap pens?

I, too, bought a 10-pen blister pack a while back. I don't have the packaging, so I can't speak about the logo. I can say that some of them have sacs that turned milky when flushed with soap, and others from the same pack did not turn milky--so I don't think that's necessarily an indicator, unless we can prove that none of the known-genuine pens have sacs that change. And unless we can round up a representative sample of pens from a range of appearances and ages, we just can't know for certain.

Maybe there are counterfeit 616s--or maybe Hero's quality control has deteriorated--or maybe they cheapened the materials or manufacturing process--or maybe there are several Hero factories, and not all of them are equal. As far as I can tell, the truth is, we just don't know for certain.

Oh, they do change models sometimes. They changed the 330 and 329 for the worse recently, certainly. The model number on them is now painted on. Hero is one of the nicer pen brands in China though, and they maintain certain standards. They aren't trouble free, but no pen company that I've heard of is.

The differences between the real Hero 616 and the fake are numerous and not sort of changes you'd make if you already had the equipment to make better.

I did eventually patch up the sac with clear nail polish to see how it'd work after that. Given the precarious nature of the fix, it's not exactly a pen I carry with me, but it can write, and it's not too scratchy. Regardless, the feel of the pen is very, very different from my Hero 616, or even my other Hero models. It very closely matches some no name Chinese pens that I have (and actually kind of like), although the plastic used is disgustingly cheap.

Regardless, knowledgeable reputable sellers, including Chinese sellers like Yespen, say there are fakes, and if you buy Heros in the markets, you can often get fakes, and you should buy them instead in department stores. The markets have fairly impressive quantities of fake stuff, actually, which you figure out when wandering through them.

I guess we don't know beyond all reasonable doubt that they are fakes, but I'd be surprised if they weren't. I think a lot of all this mess is actually the Chinese made = bad thing that a lot of Americans have, so most people will always think the worst of any Chinese manufacturer. I was definitely cured of that thought when I started cubing. Rubiks brand cubes are bad for speedcubing, while I was able to pick up a "magic cube" in a small general shop in a random narrow alley in Beijing and find a perfect speedcube.

Anyway, I'm sticking with reputable sellers, like isellpens, hisnibs, goldquills, speerbob, yespen, and ahai006. Then I don't have to deal with probable fakes and sellers who didn't necessarily realize that.

Nicely summarized. For those doubting the existance of Hero fakes, see this earlier FPN posting (and also all the references it gives) at http://www.fountainp...9166-fake-pens/ One final thing - almost an admission of fakes by Hero themselves - I know of no reason to add a hologram of the manufacturer to a package (as on the blister pack) other than an early way to distinguish real from fakes. Unfortunately such protection was short lived and counterfeits now also sport holograms.

Nicely summarized. For those doubting the existance of Hero fakes, see this earlier FPN posting (and also all the references it gives) at http://www.fountainp...9166-fake-pens/ One final thing - almost an admission of fakes by Hero themselves - I know of no reason to add a hologram of the manufacturer to a package (as on the blister pack) other than an early way to distinguish real from fakes. Unfortunately such protection was short lived and counterfeits now also sport holograms.

And I'm afraid that post doesn't prove anything, because it seems that he compared a 616 with a 616 Jumbo and came away thinking the 616 was a fake and the Jumbo was real.

Also, in that post there is a marked difference between the two caps in the closeup of the "616" engraving--but my non-Jumbo 616 has the same engraving as his 616 Jumbo. And some of my 616s' sacs turned milky when washed with soap.

And he claims the top two are fakes. But my 616s, which have the good-looking caps that others claim are genuine caps, have the sacs and sac covers that YesPen claims are fake! And I have an apparently-genuine Hero 329 that has the sac covers that he claims are fake.

I'm sorry, but it just doesn't add up. There's clearly a mixture of components, some of which are inferior (probably cheaper to produce). Since some "genuine" parts show up on pens with "fake" parts, I can only conclude that the "fake" parts we have seen are practically meaningless in determining authenticity.

...is not even an issue, because it's not labeled as a Hero pen and has a completely different cap--it's not even trying to look like a real 616.

The hologram is interesting, but it doesn't prove anything--maybe they just wanted to jazz up the packaging to increase sales (cf. "Scrooge's Plain Old Soap").

I'm no expert, but I'm not convinced of the economic viability of counterfeiting 616s. The margins are small enough for the genuine ones. It would be like someone counterfeiting Bic Clics--how could anyone compete with Bic's production power and economies of scale? If you think about the investments of time and money into creating a production line that makes pens that look like 616s, reverse-engineering the process and making adjustments and test batches until they reach an acceptable level of quality, it seems to me that it would only make sense for higher-margin items. I can't help but think of the stories of TWSBI's Diamond 530/540, how many adjustments they had to make in the design process, and then more when it came to actual production, and later even more refinements...and that's for a $40-50 pen.

YesPen may be a reputable seller, but I'm not convinced that he has first-hand knowledge about the 616s and potential counterfeit 616s. I'm not certain either way, but the more evidence I see, the more I suspect that if we are ever able to get the truth from Hero itself (and who knows if they'd even admit to making inferior versions), we'll find out that some 616s are simply better made than others. I suspect that instead of warning people of counterfeit 616s we should be warning people of inferior production runs.

Nicely summarized. For those doubting the existance of Hero fakes, see this earlier FPN posting (and also all the references it gives) at http://www.fountainp...9166-fake-pens/ One final thing - almost an admission of fakes by Hero themselves - I know of no reason to add a hologram of the manufacturer to a package (as on the blister pack) other than an early way to distinguish real from fakes. Unfortunately such protection was short lived and counterfeits now also sport holograms.

And I'm afraid that post doesn't prove anything, because it seems that he compared a 616 with a 616 Jumbo and came away thinking the 616 was a fake and the Jumbo was real.

Also, in that post there is a marked difference between the two caps in the closeup of the "616" engraving--but my non-Jumbo 616 has the same engraving as his 616 Jumbo. And some of my 616s' sacs turned milky when washed with soap.

And he claims the top two are fakes. But my 616s, which have the good-looking caps that others claim are genuine caps, have the sacs and sac covers that YesPen claims are fake! And I have an apparently-genuine Hero 329 that has the sac covers that he claims are fake.

I'm sorry, but it just doesn't add up. There's clearly a mixture of components, some of which are inferior (probably cheaper to produce). Since some "genuine" parts show up on pens with "fake" parts, I can only conclude that the "fake" parts we have seen are practically meaningless in determining authenticity.

...is not even an issue, because it's not labeled as a Hero pen and has a completely different cap--it's not even trying to look like a real 616.

The hologram is interesting, but it doesn't prove anything--maybe they just wanted to jazz up the packaging to increase sales (cf. "Scrooge's Plain Old Soap").

I'm no expert, but I'm not convinced of the economic viability of counterfeiting 616s. The margins are small enough for the genuine ones. It would be like someone counterfeiting Bic Clics--how could anyone compete with Bic's production power and economies of scale? If you think about the investments of time and money into creating a production line that makes pens that look like 616s, reverse-engineering the process and making adjustments and test batches until they reach an acceptable level of quality, it seems to me that it would only make sense for higher-margin items. I can't help but think of the stories of TWSBI's Diamond 530/540, how many adjustments they had to make in the design process, and then more when it came to actual production, and later even more refinements...and that's for a $40-50 pen.

YesPen may be a reputable seller, but I'm not convinced that he has first-hand knowledge about the 616s and potential counterfeit 616s. I'm not certain either way, but the more evidence I see, the more I suspect that if we are ever able to get the truth from Hero itself (and who knows if they'd even admit to making inferior versions), we'll find out that some 616s are simply better made than others. I suspect that instead of warning people of counterfeit 616s we should be warning people of inferior production runs.

I cannot find references specifically to fakes of Hero pens, except on FPN and other pen pages here and in the UK. Nothing that gives data from other than a user source. However, I would be amazed if Hero ran two such differeent constructions as shown for the two larger pens in your second link. I believe from what I have read that we may well be dealing with several counterfeiters, which really confuses the issue.

As to whether it is worthwhile to counterfeit such a cheap pen, if counterfeits and counterfeiting operations in other areas of technolgy are anything to go by, probably, though for the domestic market rather than export I would think. The costs of setting up are not that great - the most expensive part is injection molding tooling as the bodies can't be made viably any other way. But that can be very cheap, especially if the molds are formed by using the genuine parts to cast a simple mold. I have seen photos of factories making counterfeit product in the audio industry - they look more like a garage operation than what we would consider a production line and use very inexpensive tooling. This is not the case with factories making genuine branded products - they are what we would expect.

Apparently there is a whole area in China, Wengang, that has been making pens for centuries and where numerous counterfeiters operate along with the genuine brands' factories - there is quite an article that was published in the Los Angeles Times http://articles.lati...s/fi-fakepens17 It is fascinating reading, but it does not deal with fakes of Chinese brands.

So I guess there is no actual proof one way or the other - Hero just could be making multiple different varieties of the 616 with different parts and finish in each, but it doesn't make any sense for an established manufacturer to do this and sell them all side by side. It does not appear to be a case of "cheapening" a product as the "fakes" have been noted for quite a few years and by now, if it was just Hero changing how they built them, the "good" pens would have sold through and no longer be available.That would seem to indicate that, if they are all from Hero, they are using multiple lines, each making a different pen to be labelled as a 616.

By the way, one indicator on the pens I have that I think are fakes is the poor lettering on the cap compared to others I think are "genuine", and the performance seems to go with what I believe - the "fakes" really are quite bad, where the "genuine" ones are good or can be made good with minor nib tweaking.

When we finally get down to it, it doesn't matter if we find proof that fakes exist. In all cases, the poorer versions seem to come from eBay transactions, frequently with Asian dealers. By paying about $5 from a reputable dealer such as Isellpens (no affiliation, just a satisfied customer) it seems that only the better made versions are delivered. That may be three times the per pen bulk price on eBay, but it's still not much more than a cup of coffee and worth it for peace of mind.

That's an interesting article; thanks for sharing it. I'm highly skeptical of their claimed 7.5 billion pens made and sold just from Wengang in a single year--even with their 3,100 pen businesses in that town of 70,000, that averages out to about 6,700 pens per day per business, or 420 per hour, and most of those businesses must be very small operations.

I think something we should keep in mind is that these companies and their government operate with a very different set of values and morals than most Japanese and Western companies. It seems that honesty is less important than apparent dignity and, of course, greed. In general it seems like they have no qualms about inflating numbers or telling outright lies. And in that town, they don't take kindly to the curious. haha So I doubt we'll ever know the truth about these 616s. It's interesting, though!

I sincerely doubt that the profit margins of the fakes are very large, but the decrease in quality between the real and the fake makes me think that it's quite possible to make some money. The cost of cabbage in China this year is about 1 mao per kilo. That's about 1.5 cents. Jian bing (a large savory crepe with crunchy stuff and an egg inside, that makes a good meal) cost 2 kuai, about 25 cents on the streets of Beijing. So, to make the fakes worth it, there only has to be a very small profit margin. Furthermore, the Hero 616 sells for about $1, I think, in China. If you look on taobao.com (it's only in Chinese, so you'll have to use a translation tool), you'll find out that it's easy to pick up a fountain pen for about 1 kuai, or 15 cents. We're talking about a very, very different price range here.

I bought a bunch of 616s from a reputable dealer, which worked out to be the same price. I haven't yet encountered a dud in the bunch, and I have given some away.

And we should have a Hero sub-forum. Yes, yes we should.

How do they compare to the old school Hero 329s? (of which I have a bunch . . . I bought a lot on eBay and 1/4 of them were duds, but the other 3/4 are very good writers and I like to keep a few in my pencil case). I would be interested in getting the Jumbo size and I'm assuming yespen on eBay is a decent vendor.

I found the Hero 329 and 330 to be the same as each other, but somewhat wetter and thinner than the 616. The nibs are also a touch stiffer on the 329 and 330. One of the Hero 329s is a bit leaky, which is annoying, so it and the fake Hero 616 are going to be saved for pen fixing experiments.

I've bought way, way too many Chinese FP (probably 20ish? I should start selling/trading some) and I've had only two duds, the fake 616 and one 329. I'm not a fan of my 001s, but they are functional. Even my no name Chinese FPs work!

I think we're only getting toward the point of having a Chinese pen sub-forum, let alone a Hero one. A combined Chinese-Indian sub-forum would effectively cover a lot of the lower cost pens...

I found the Hero 329 and 330 to be the same as each other, but somewhat wetter and thinner than the 616. The nibs are also a touch stiffer on the 329 and 330. One of the Hero 329s is a bit leaky, which is annoying, so it and the fake Hero 616 are going to be saved for pen fixing experiments.

I've bought way, way too many Chinese FP (probably 20ish? I should start selling/trading some) and I've had only two duds, the fake 616 and one 329. I'm not a fan of my 001s, but they are functional. Even my no name Chinese FPs work!

I think we're only getting toward the point of having a Chinese pen sub-forum, let alone a Hero one. A combined Chinese-Indian sub-forum would effectively cover a lot of the lower cost pens...

Is the 001 the translucent type? If so, it had a nail of a nib that yet showed some interesting line variation.

I accidentally stubbed one of my Hero 616s.... it came out all right. Science experiments were made for cheap pens.

OK, so Hero does a knock-off of Parker, and now someone is knocking off the knock-off?

I think I'd rather use a nail. At least if it didn't write well, I could use it to build something; instead of just crushing it under my heel.

Why not just get a Lamy, Pelikan or Waterman? I think it would be much more economical in the end, and you would even have a warranty.

Inked

It's not. A real Hero 616 is a rather lovely pen, and easy to obtain if I pay attention to who I'm buying it from. It's $5 from a reputable seller. I'm a college student, and fairly convinced that most fountain pens marketed in the US fall firmly in the category of 'luxury good'. I should hardly be buying luxury items prior to having a decent paying job. I have had absolutely zero trouble with my Hero 616, although I guess like any squeeze filler, it'd eventually need its sac replaced.

I do realise being a student is not always the easiest thing on the planet, financially, but you can get a Lamy on the web for $25(new & used), and 30 years from know you will still be using it.

So $25 divided by 30 years = $0.83 cents a year.

You will be able to give it to your child when they are a starving student.

@Sailor Kenshin:
They are the 360 degree pen. What they actually mean by this is that they are 360 degrees is held fairly vertically, and have 4 functional positions otherwise. They are slightly scratchy. They aren't dreadful, and they are pretty cheap, but I think a bit more of a novelty item than a proper pen. Eh, I'll probably try to sell them to someone who wants to try out the nib, but I don't see them ever being anyone's main pen. So far though, they don't dry out easily, so I guess I could see them being useful, particularly for odd colors.

@Inked:
Sure, I could get a Safari. But personally find them ugly, and I've not heard amazing things about them, and I'd need to get a converter. The Hero 616 I enjoy aesthetically, it's durable, it works perfectly, the ink never dries up in the nib even if I ignore it for weeks on end, it never skips, it always starts up, it is the perfect level of wetness, and it's just been trouble-free. I've also heard of people who managed to obtain Heros so long ago still finding them perfectly functional 20-30 years later. Even so, to match the price of the Safari that you are citing, it would only have to last 6 years, which I have no doubt it will easily do. Quite frankly, I'd be shocked if it ever broke without serious mistreatment.

I can get a Hero 616 for less than the cost of a Lamy converter... If it works, why shouldn't I? Furthermore, what if I want a few pens, so I can take notes in more than one color?

The issue isn't that I can't afford a more expensive pen. It's that I see anything over $15 as clearly falling in the luxury good category, and I see right now as a time to save money.

Also, I wanted to try out different pens, to experiment. I'm trading the ones I didn't find suitable for other pens and ink, until I get down to fewer pens that I really adore (I'm not foisting off the ones that don't work on others though, only the ones that seem reasonable, that I just don't like). I even managed to find one that flexes easily and well. Of all of the Chinese pens that have gone through my hands, I've had two that are dreadful and one that's kind of annoying. That's still extremely economical. It's probably over a 70% success rate.

I've been happy with my cheapo Chinese pens. If I like them, what is the problem?

Ohh, the 360. Yes, I have one of those as well. A peculiar little pen, but since I enjoy oddities, I'm keeping it.

PS: And I have a Lamy Safari, too, but it's not in my regular rotation. Not knocking it for those who enjoy it, but the grip is troublesome for me.

Ha ^.^ I think you're one of the few.

So, I have two of the 360. I kind of want to keep one, as a novelty, but I'm not exactly a huge fan of using the thing. Maybe I can play with it a lot, and maybe it'll work better then... Regardless, I don't want two of them. I just don't end up using them enough to warrant that...

Yeah, for as much as I've heard that the Safari is lovely, I've also heard about issues with dry nibs, issues with the grip, etc. I'm not sure if I'd like the grip. I do like the Pilot Plumix (also, it looks like a squid! ) but I think it has a more rounded bottom? I dunno. I'm pretty picky with grips, and the ones I like are often fairly rounded, small, and attached to a small pen without a step down to them. The Safari looks so big next to the Hero 616 (which is the same size as the Parker 51, I think?), which is the pen I've found by far the most comfortable to use.

Ohh, the 360. Yes, I have one of those as well. A peculiar little pen, but since I enjoy oddities, I'm keeping it.

PS: And I have a Lamy Safari, too, but it's not in my regular rotation. Not knocking it for those who enjoy it, but the grip is troublesome for me.

Ha ^.^ I think you're one of the few.

So, I have two of the 360. I kind of want to keep one, as a novelty, but I'm not exactly a huge fan of using the thing. Maybe I can play with it a lot, and maybe it'll work better then... Regardless, I don't want two of them. I just don't end up using them enough to warrant that...

Yeah, for as much as I've heard that the Safari is lovely, I've also heard about issues with dry nibs, issues with the grip, etc. I'm not sure if I'd like the grip. I do like the Pilot Plumix (also, it looks like a squid! ) but I think it has a more rounded bottom? I dunno. I'm pretty picky with grips, and the ones I like are often fairly rounded, small, and attached to a small pen without a step down to them. The Safari looks so big next to the Hero 616 (which is the same size as the Parker 51, I think?), which is the pen I've found by far the most comfortable to use.

I have the Plumix, too (Mr. Squidward!), and its grip section is a bit smoother and more rounded than the Safari's, which looks and feels more angular.

For myself, I prefer a section that doesn't stand out in any way, and the 616s are good in that respect.

Don't forget about nib/feed/breather tubes falling out of 616s when you are writing. Or breather tubes that come loose and float in the sac. Or nibs that are so poorly adjusted they don't write at all for tight tines. Or collectors that aren't really collectors but solid pieces of plastic that sort of look like collectors. Or those awful metal sac shields that keep you from actually filling the pen all the way so you end up taking it off.

Okay. Makes sense. I might eventually obtain a Safari, but only after trying it out. Honestly, for the step up from Chinese pens, I'm much more tempted by vintage. They might require a bit of work, but the style and size look better to me than the newer pens. The newer pens I'm drawn to are the silly ones (like the Pilot Plumix).

Don't forget about nib/feed/breather tubes falling out of 616s when you are writing. Or breather tubes that come loose and float in the sac. Or nibs that are so poorly adjusted they don't write at all for tight tines. Or collectors that aren't really collectors but solid pieces of plastic that sort of look like collectors. Or those awful metal sac shields that keep you from actually filling the pen all the way so you end up taking it off.

Huh. That sounds maddening. I have to say, all of my Heros have been perfectly well behaved, except for one 329 with a slightly leaky section (it took me a while to figure out if I had just got a ton of ink in the cap, or if it was actually leaky...), and my 001s are a touch scratchy. Some of them have reasonable sac shields, but I've not got any pen that takes less than a regular converter full of ink with the sac, and the Hero 616 gets more the amount of a small eyedropper. Seriously, I've gotten it completely full... None of them have gotten worse with use so far either.

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