Somehow I suspected as much. The Cubs needed this. I'm surprised the cost was so low

Evman5

12-07-2005, 02:00 AM

not a bad trade for the Cubs

soxfanreggie

12-07-2005, 02:03 AM

So now that the Marlins have gotten rid of Burnett, Beckett, Delgado, LoDuca, Pierre, Lowell, and Castillo for like...13 or 14 or whatever minor leaguers (including like 10 or whom seem like pitchers)...are they going to play these prospects in the majors or will a lot of these new players not see the majors until later on in the year? I'm guessing Mitre will be on their ML roster, but gosh...wish we could've gotten something out of them. Heck, take Gload and any 2-3 minor league pitchers and you could probably get D-Train when his contract is up (j/k...he'll go for more than that).

nodiggity59

12-07-2005, 02:04 AM

meh. The Cubs just really won't be a very good team next year.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:05 AM

meh. The Cubs just really won't be a very good team next year.

Nobody's saying they will. However their CF position is exponentially better

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:10 AM

Eh, doesn't make too much sense to give up 3 prospects for what is essentially a 1 year rental. Now, if this were the last piece, or close to last piece, of a contender, then you do it. But the way that team is shaping up, they'll be lucky to finish 3rd.

I'd say unless Hendry pulls an extreme overhaul of this team in the next 6 weeks (a la KW last year) and makes them a contender, he just gave away 3 prospects.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:15 AM

Eh, doesn't make too much sense to give up 3 prospects for what is essentially a 1 year rental. Now, if this were the last piece, or close to last piece, of a contender, then you do it. But the way that team is shaping up, they'll be lucky to finish 3rd.

I'd say unless Hendry pulls an extreme overhaul of this team in the next 6 weeks (a la KW last year) and makes them a contender, he just gave away 3 prospects.

They'll make Pierre a contract offer he can't refuse. Probably similar to our Garcia trade

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:17 AM

They'll make Pierre a contract offer he can't refuse. Probably similar to our Garcia trade

Not if Mr. Pie is a year away and the future CF, which is what the Cub organization seems to think.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:18 AM

Not if Mr. Pie is a year away and the future CF, which is what the Cub organization seems to think.

IMO Mr. Pie will never put on a Chicago Cubs uniform. He's injury prone and I don't think he's on their list of untouchable prospects.

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:21 AM

IMO Mr. Pie will never put on a Chicago Cubs uniform. He's injury prone and I don't think he's on their list of untouchable prospects.

Maybe. But everything I'e heard or read about the Cub (not much, I admit) is that he is the future. If they ditch that and sign Pierre to a reasonable deal, then the deal works. But if it is really a 1 year rental for a mediocre team, it's a dumb trade.

TDog

12-07-2005, 02:23 AM

Nobody's saying they will. However their CF position is exponentially better

I'm not so sure that will be true defensively.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:25 AM

Maybe. But everything I'e heard or read about the Cub (not much, I admit) is that he is the future. If they ditch that and sign Pierre to a reasonable deal, then the deal works. But if it is really a 1 year rental for a mediocre team, it's a dumb trade.

Remember all the Jeremy Reed hype? If the right deal comes around everyone is expendable

getonbckthr

12-07-2005, 02:26 AM

All this talk about Renteria look for Hendry to swoop win with something like:

Cedeno and Patterson for Renteria. Maybe even throw in Neifi Perez. Followed by more of this talk:
Walker and Wood for Soriano and Mench. Pull of those 2 reasonable deals and they look like this:
Pierre, Renteria, Lee, Aram, Soriano, Mench, Barrett, Murton, and then the Pitcher.
With a rotation of:
Prior, Zambrano, Maddux, Rusch, and Williams.
Thats not a bad team, and could potential be pretty dangerous.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:26 AM

I'm not so sure that will be true defensively.

He can't be all that much worse. I've seen Patterson be awful out there. They were looking for someone that can be an offensive threat and not be a butcher in the field. I think they got what they wanted

Corlose 15

12-07-2005, 02:27 AM

The best part of this trade is the end of the "the sox could get pierre" posts. :D:

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:30 AM

Remember all the Jeremy Reed hype? If the right deal comes around everyone is expendable

Yea, but we got a very good pitcher i nthat deal who everyone knew we'd try to sign. The Cub CF of the future has been pegged as Pie. And word out of their organization was that he is either ready or will be in 2007. So, assuming that's the case, Pierre is a stop-gap. Now, if they have given up on Pie, look for them to trade him and sign Pierre to an extension. But I do not think that is the case.

With Garcia, starting pitching was a big need of ours. And we had no one proven lined up behind him. For the Cub, they just acquired what appears to be a rental for 3 propspects. And Pierre isn't so good that he will put them over the top. Again, if they put together a contender then it is worth it. But I don't see that happeneing right now.

Basically I think the Cub is making a huge mistake by not just admitting to its fans that they need 1-2 years to do a semi-rebuilding project. Not as drastic as the Marlins or even the one the Indians undertook. But two years to build a real team and not have to acquire a new outfield, new bullpen, and new middle infield in one off season.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:33 AM

You've seen Mitre pitch, right? It's not like they gave up Rich Hill

getonbckthr

12-07-2005, 02:38 AM

Yea, but we got a very good pitcher i nthat deal who everyone knew we'd try to sign. The Cub CF of the future has been pegged as Pie. And word out of their organization was that he is either ready or will be in 2007. So, assuming that's the case, Pierre is a stop-gap. Now, if they have given up on Pie, look for them to trade him and sign Pierre to an extension. But I do not think that is the case.

With Garcia, starting pitching was a big need of ours. And we had no one proven lined up behind him. For the Cub, they just acquired what appears to be a rental for 3 propspects. And Pierre isn't so good that he will put them over the top. Again, if they put together a contender then it is worth it. But I don't see that happeneing right now.

Basically I think the Cub is making a huge mistake by not just admitting to its fans that they need 1-2 years to do a semi-rebuilding project. Not as drastic as the Marlins or even the one the Indians undertook. But two years to build a real team and not have to acquire a new outfield, new bullpen, and new middle infield in one off season.
Why Can't Pie play right? Or move Pierre to left?

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:38 AM

You've seen Mitre pitch, right? It's not like they gave up Rich Hill

True. And I have no clue about the other 2 guys, just that they have been called prospects. Again, I am going off a small amount of information b/c I really don't follow the Cub. But if this is just a 1 year rental and those 3 guys had any value, I don't think this made sense. And while the Fish have been getting rid of everyone, they have at least been getting quality propsects back. So I would assume at least one of those guys was considered a quality prospect.

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:40 AM

Why Can't Pie play right? Or move Pierre to left?

Because it would be on the same level as having 2 Scott Podsednik's in the same outfield. Especially in the NL, without the DH, most (if not all) teams do not put 2 guys in the outfield who don't have any pop in their bat. With the way their line-up shapes up, the only pop comes from 1B and 3B. You need more than that.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:41 AM

I really do think that the Cubs will sign Pierre to an extension before Spring Training. With their heightened expectation levels of the last few years they can't sit back and wait for prospects to develop. Their farm system hasn't turned out alot of gems lately.

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:42 AM

I really do think that the Cubs will sign Pierre to an extension before Spring Training. With their heightened expectation levels of the last few years they can't sit back and wait for prospects to develop. Their farm system hasn't turned out alot of gems lately.

Actually, several of the guys they traded turned out great. Hence my plan for them to pack it in for a couple of years, not trade away prospects, and go that way.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:44 AM

Actually, several of the guys they traded turned out great. Hence my plan for them to pack it in for a couple of years, not trade away prospects, and go that way.

Maybe your right.:unsure: Any notables off-hand? I'm too lazy at this time of night

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:48 AM

Maybe your right.:unsure: Any notables off-hand? I'm too lazy at this time of night

Garland and Willis to start. Not sure about position players, but those 2 guys teamed with Zambrano and Prior make an unreal top 4 in the rotation. And they would have never wasted $10MM on Maddox with those guys.

MUsoxfan

12-07-2005, 02:54 AM

Garland and Willis to start. Not sure about position players, but those 2 guys teamed with Zambrano and Prior make an unreal top 4 in the rotation. And they would have never wasted $10MM on Maddox with those guys.

Ahhh yes, Garland and Willis. Prior wasn't really a product of a farm system as much as he was a great draft pick that moved up the ladder really quick. Zambrano...well, there's not alot I can say about him:rolleyes:

ilsox7

12-07-2005, 02:55 AM

Ahhh yes, Garland and Willis. Prior wasn't really a product of a farm system as much as he was a great draft pick that moved up the ladder really quick. Zambrano...well, there's not alot I can say about him:rolleyes:

Yea, agree about Prior. I was just saying, can you imagine Zambrano, Prior, Willis and Garland in the same rotation? It would almost be like having Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, Garland and McCarthy in the same rotation. :D:

Coolpapa

12-07-2005, 03:00 AM

Watch for Patterson to play much better in a more positive, enlightened, and fundamentally sound organization. Bobby Cox or Tony LaRussa could be all this guy needs.

bobwsx

12-07-2005, 03:04 AM

Don't they still need a RF and LF?What about moving Patterson?Is that out of the question?

getonbckthr

12-07-2005, 03:30 AM

Don't they still need a RF and LF?What about moving Patterson?Is that out of the question?
This deal all but ends the days of Patterson hackin in the dump. Could Patterson be Bronx bound??
Patterson and Williams for Pavano????

C-Dawg

12-07-2005, 05:57 AM

http://www.speaking.com/clientimages/clientimages,b/bakerdusty.jpg

"I can't turn my back on Corey! This Pierre dude's gonna have to get more aquainted with the bench!"

hose

12-07-2005, 06:15 AM

The Cubs needed a lead off man with speed , now that they got Pierre may be they can dump Patterson.

Mitre was 2-5 with a 5.37 ERA in 21 appearances with the Cubs. He started seven games and threw one shutout. Nolasco is a highly regarded 23-year-old right-hander who was 14-3 with a 2.89 ERA at West Tenn. - Cubune

Make no doubt about it, the Cubs gave up quite a bit in the pursuit of Pierre. IF the Sox had made this deal, many here would bemoan giving up so much for a one year player, at this point.

That appears to be a lot to give up, but to me, this is for three pitchers who were not going to be part of the 2006 Cub major league roster. - One Cubbie fan on the trade.

peeonwrigley

12-07-2005, 06:48 AM

http://www.speaking.com/clientimages/clientimages,b/bakerdusty.jpg

"I can't turn my back on Corey! This Pierre dude's gonna have to get more aquainted with the bench!"

"Aww Dude!, C'mon Man!

Hendry dude knows to get me some more players that can deal with the sun better in those summer months, man, dude! Like my momma taught me"

getonbckthr

12-07-2005, 06:58 AM

"Aww Dude!, C'mon Man!

Hendry dude knows to get me some more players that can deal with the sun better in those summer months, man, dude! Like my momma taught me"
http://www.wdrake.com/images/us/local/products/detail/p103156b.jpgMerry Xmas Dusty!?!?

gr8mexico

12-07-2005, 06:59 AM

NO!!! I just lost a bet. If anyone see me in a CUBS jersey next year you know why.:angry:

JUribe1989

12-07-2005, 07:04 AM

Great trade for the Cubs considering they took advantage of the Marlins firesale, but I hate to tell you Cubbies but the Astros (Willy Taveras) and Cardinals (David Eckstein) both have better leadoff hitters than you, so you have a LONG way to go still.:D:

White Sox Randy

12-07-2005, 07:49 AM

Somehow I suspected as much. The Cubs needed this. I'm surprised the cost was so low

The flubs way overpaid. Mitre is ready for the rotation now and Nolasco is an outstanding prospect about a year away. And, Pinto is an excellent LH prospect proven at AA. The Marlins got a lot of good young inexpensive pitching for an aging singles hitter coming off his worst season and is a one year rental.

Why is it when Hendry makes a trade ......... he never gives away anything??
And on top of that, why is he always trading with the Marlins & Devil Rays?

It's Time

12-07-2005, 08:08 AM

Why is it when Hendry makes a trade ......... he never gives away anything??
And on top of that, why is he always trading with the Marlins & Devil Rays?

Come on, Hangar. Two of the three guys the Cubs gave up are pretty solid.

C-Dawg

12-07-2005, 08:30 AM

OK Now thay have Derrick Lee, and now Juan Pierre... Maybe they are trying to re-create the 2003 Marlins?

I heard Urgeth Urbina may be available after he gets done with those murder charges!

wdelaney72

12-07-2005, 08:32 AM

Prior, Zambrano, Maddux, Rusch, and Williams.
Thats not a bad team, and could potential be pretty dangerous.

I don't want to turn this into a Cub-bashing thread, cause I find that whole thing so stale, but until Prior and Wood pitch a full season, that rotation does nothing for me. In all seriousness, the Cubs need to plan for a 7-man starting rotation.

Patterson will wear a different uniform next year. Matt Murton played really well last year and will likely get one of the outfield positions, but that's still leaves them with one more opening in the outfield. They still are a very questionable team bound for 3rd place. Acquiring Pierre is an upgrade, but not a difference maker.

Fenway

12-07-2005, 09:12 AM

big winner in this is Johnny Damon...now the Yankees have to make a bid as they need somebody in CF to replace Williams

Meanwhile the Marlins board wonders what they are going to do with all the pitchers

Meanwhile the Marlins board wonders what they are going to do with all the pitchers

Put 'em all on a big flatbed truck and drive them to San Antonio, Las Vegas, Portland, etc.

Pasqua's Posers

12-07-2005, 09:33 AM

It's started already:

From some stroke on NSBB this morning:

Short answer:

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

We all knew this was inevitable....

caulfield12

12-07-2005, 09:36 AM

All this talk about Renteria look for Hendry to swoop win with something like:

Cedeno and Patterson for Renteria. Maybe even throw in Neifi Perez. Followed by more of this talk:
Walker and Wood for Soriano and Mench. Pull of those 2 reasonable deals and they look like this:
Pierre, Renteria, Lee, Aram, Soriano, Mench, Barrett, Murton, and then the Pitcher.
With a rotation of:
Prior, Zambrano, Maddux, Rusch, and Williams.
Thats not a bad team, and could potential be pretty dangerous.

Red Sox are probably going to do a 3 way with Renteria going to the Braves...prospects to D-Rays.

The Rangers are not going to trade Mench and Soriano, only one of those guys. And I donīt know how willing any team is to take a chance on Wood until he proves that he is healthy.

If Prior is healthy...fine...but Rusch, Maddux and Williams are all average pitchers at this point.

Patterson and Renteria makes a lot more sense, but I do not see the Red Sox being the type of team that takes that kind of risk at two of the most critical positions on the field. They dealt their best SS prospect in Hanley Ramirez...I just donīt see a team like that starting Patterson and Cedeno on Opening Day 2006.

Chicken Dinner

12-07-2005, 09:39 AM

I guess this means the Cubs will win at least 1 game of the cross town classic.

Paulwny

12-07-2005, 09:59 AM

This deal all but ends the days of Patterson hackin in the dump. Could Patterson be Bronx bound??
Patterson and Williams for Pavano????

With NY going nowhere in the search for a cf, this now looks like a good option.

kittle42

12-07-2005, 10:01 AM

I imagine many Cub fans feel about Patterson the way I used to feel about Sosa when he was on the Sox....if he goes somewhere else and excels, so be it, but please get him the hell away from my team already!

mweflen

12-07-2005, 10:02 AM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250647

So the eternal question - will this give legions of Flubs fans false hopes for 2006?

Iwritecode

12-07-2005, 10:07 AM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250647

So the eternal question - will this give legions of Flubs fans false hopes for 2006?

Two questions: What does this do to the saviour Corey Patterson and why are the Cubs giving up more pitching?

Exit_Only

12-07-2005, 10:58 AM

The best part of this trade is the end of the "the sox could get pierre" posts. :D:

:D: Great sig!

Exit_Only

12-07-2005, 11:15 AM

Why is it when Hendry makes a trade ......... he never gives away anything??
And on top of that, why is he always trading with the Marlins & Devil Rays?

Great points. The Cubs didn't have to give up any of their top prospects like Rich Hill, Felix Pie, Matt Murton, Ronny Cedeno, or a decent starter like Jerome Williams!

This is a great deal for the Cubs by filling two needs (CF and leadoff hitter) by giving up two second-tier prospects and a piece of trash in Meat Tray. Granted Pierre is a one-year stop gap, but they are expecting Pie to take over in 2007 anyway, for league minimum.

bighurt2719

12-07-2005, 11:16 AM

reported on ESPN, pierre to the cubs. sorry if this has already been posted.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250647

oh well. i didnt personally want pierre with us because i like anderson and i think pierre is overrated as hell because of a weak FA market this year. the cubs can have him. their chances of even getting the wildcard in '06 are about the chances of a snowball in hell.:happybday

Chicken Dinner

12-07-2005, 11:18 AM

It doesn't belong in the Sox clubhouse.

bighurt2719

12-07-2005, 11:20 AM

It doesn't belong in the Sox clubhouse.

yeah it does. we were supposedly interested in pierre. that option is no longer available to the white sox...therefore, this information is relevant to the white sox.

Stoky44

12-07-2005, 11:23 AM

yeah it does. we were supposedly interested in pierre. that option is no longer available to the white sox...therefore, this information is relevant to the white sox.

I concur.

skottyj242

12-07-2005, 11:28 AM

What's the Score?

knocko94

12-07-2005, 11:32 AM

Sox did not want him.

Kenny Williams said so.

Baby Fisk

12-07-2005, 11:35 AM

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63369

bighurt2719

12-07-2005, 11:35 AM

Sox did not want him.

Kenny Williams said so.

yeah well we all know that saying and doing are two different things, especially when you are talking about MLB GM's. some people did think that we were trying to get him despite what KW said. I myself was against the move, but hey, it could have happened.

the point of my post was to quiet the rumors, what is wrong with that?

bighurt2719

12-07-2005, 11:36 AM

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63369

dang, sorry about that, didnt know it was already posted.

nodiggity59

12-07-2005, 11:38 AM

Why is it when Hendry makes a trade ......... he never gives away anything??
And on top of that, why is he always trading with the Marlins & Devil Rays?

Hangar, you answered your own freaking question, man. He's made 3 steal for Ramirez, Lee, and now Pierre (though this one is less of a steal). The people he's dealing with? Pittsburgh, Florida, and Florida. Kenny can't make those types of $ deals, so we have to give up "more". Don't be worried though, they've got Dempster, Howry, and Eyre for more than the cost of our whole pen, etc. All the cash in the world won't make them win if they don't get the pitching. And they won't.

Domeshot17

12-07-2005, 12:04 PM

I for one think the cubs got fleeced. Pierre is coming off a down year, and moves into a much smaller ball park. Think he is going to miss the gaps in florida?

Nolasco and Pinto will be in the rotation in a few years with Willis, giving the Las Vegas Aces 3 front line starters for 2 players that did not bring the cubs a world series.

Lip Man 1

12-07-2005, 12:43 PM

Too bad... especially if Pierre has a very good season.

Lip

Exit_Only

12-07-2005, 01:06 PM

I for one think the cubs got fleeced. Pierre is coming off a down year, and moves into a much smaller ball park. Think he is going to miss the gaps in florida?

Nolasco and Pinto will be in the rotation in a few years with Willis, giving the Las Vegas Aces 3 front line starters for 2 players that did not bring the cubs a world series.

Not that I've watched Pierre play a lot, but from what I've heard, he's a singles hitter, so the smaller gaps of Wrigley Field won't prevent him from getting his hits. Also, like any other speedy leadoff hitter, he will get many infield hits because of his speed.

I don't know anything about Nolasco and Pinto, and they might become front line starters, but keep in mind that the Cubs still didn't have to give up pitchers in their minor leagues that are better than Nolasco and Pinto.

JoeClutch24

12-07-2005, 01:39 PM

They can have their sub-par leadoff hitter all they want. I swear to out argue anybody on the Pods vs. Pierre subject.

Stoky44

12-07-2005, 01:47 PM

They can have their sub-par leadoff hitter all they want. I swear to out argue anybody on the Pods vs. Pierre subject.

I think this was a bad trade for the Cubs. Mitre's going to be good. If the Cubs had to give up Mitre, the Sox would have had to give up McCarthy to get Pierre. No way we do that deal. Pierre's not worth Marte. (And Marte stinks)

Exit_Only

12-07-2005, 03:28 PM

I think this was a bad trade for the Cubs. Mitre's going to be good. If the Cubs had to give up Mitre, the Sox would have had to give up McCarthy to get Pierre. No way we do that deal. Pierre's not worth Marte. (And Marte stinks)

I'm not sure if you're calling Mitre the Cubs best pitching prospect, like McCarthy is for the Sox, but Mitre is nowhere near the best Cubs pitching prospect. IIRC, Mitre's status is the same as the Sox's is with Joe Borchard; if Mitre didn't make the Cubs 25-man roster, he would have become a FA. It was in the Cubs best interest to receive something in a trade for Mitre since there was no chance of him making the big league club.

Tekijawa

12-07-2005, 03:34 PM

I'm not sure if you're calling Mitre the Cubs best pitching prospect, like McCarthy is for the Sox, but Mitre is nowhere near the best Cubs pitching prospect. IIRC, Mitre's status is the same as the Sox's is with Joe Borchard; if Mitre didn't make the Cubs 25-man roster, he would have become a FA. It was in the Cubs best interest to receive something in a trade for Mitre since there was no chance of him making the big league club.

I also don't recall Mitre Manhandling the Previous Years World Champs at their house late in the season going against one of their best pitchers... McCarthy is going to be a Stud sooner rather than later!

sthbndsox

12-07-2005, 03:35 PM

ok, so i have a question. with the addition of pierre, my scrub fan friend thinks they will make the playoffs, and wants me to bet him as much as $50 on it (i'm 15, so thats a ton of money for me). i dont think they have a shot in hell with the astros and the cardinals in that division, and the braves and mets in the east. anyone have some advice?

whitesoxfan

12-07-2005, 03:37 PM

ok, so i have a question. with the addition of pierre, my scrub fan friend thinks they will make the playoffs, and wants me to bet him as much as $50 on it (i'm 15, so thats a ton of money for me). i dont think they have a shot in hell with the astros and the cardinals in that division, and the braves and mets in the east. anyone have some advice?

Pierre is one thing. They still do not have a RF and a SS. If you want my advice, I'd say do it.

Tekijawa

12-07-2005, 03:46 PM

I don't think the 'Stro's will be a threat Next year if Clemens leaves

KyWhiSoxFan

12-07-2005, 03:54 PM

I'm not sure if you're calling Mitre the Cubs best pitching prospect, like McCarthy is for the Sox, but Mitre is nowhere near the best Cubs pitching prospect. IIRC, Mitre's status is the same as the Sox's is with Joe Borchard; if Mitre didn't make the Cubs 25-man roster, he would have become a FA. It was in the Cubs best interest to receive something in a trade for Mitre since there was no chance of him making the big league club.

I was not saying Mitre was the Cubs' best pitching prospect. He's okay. It's just that if they wanted Mitre from the Cubs, they probably wanted McCarthy from the Sox, because the dropoff from McCarthy to the next "prospect" is pretty far. We don't have anything to give from among prospects that another team could live with. (And I don't consider McCarthy a prospect. He's going to be--or already is--very good.)

Banix12

12-07-2005, 04:00 PM

Because it would be on the same level as having 2 Scott Podsednik's in the same outfield. Especially in the NL, without the DH, most (if not all) teams do not put 2 guys in the outfield who don't have any pop in their bat. With the way their line-up shapes up, the only pop comes from 1B and 3B. You need more than that.

Pie is only 20 and he has developing power. He hit 11 HRs in half a season at AA West Tennesee last year before he got hurt. However he also doesn't appear to be able to get on base at a decent clip. Makes me think "Corey Patterson Jr." But I don't see him as exactly like a podsednik or pierre.

I don't know where cubs management is getting off thinking Pie is anywhere near ready enough to come up and play. Much less bat leadoff like they thought he could mid last season. However given a little more time to develop he should gain a bit more pop in his bat.

My cubs fan buddy is ticked at this trade. He really liked both Pinto and Nolasco and I tend to agree with him that this is a deal that is going to come back to bite them in the butt.

Based on what the cubs gave up for him they had better sign Pierre long term. That is a lot of talent to give up for a 1 year rental.

Now the question, when Pierre comes back to Wrigley Field will he regain that Wiggly Feel?

Banix12

12-07-2005, 04:15 PM

ok, so i have a question. with the addition of pierre, my scrub fan friend thinks they will make the playoffs, and wants me to bet him as much as $50 on it (i'm 15, so thats a ton of money for me). i dont think they have a shot in hell with the astros and the cardinals in that division, and the braves and mets in the east. anyone have some advice?

If you don't feel comfortable betting 50 bucks, try to talk him down to a more reasonable amount for you like 25. It's not 50 but in my opinion you should only ever gamble with an amount that you feel comfortable losing.

I'd take the bet. The cubs haven't won 90 games in a season since 1998 and right now other than Prior and Zambrano I hate their rotation. You're talking Maddux (loosing effectiveness), Wood(often injured) and probably Rusch (inconsistant) taking up the back three slots. Their bullpen will be improved but I don't care for the depth. In the lineup they are going to likely have two rookies and probably a lot of Neifi Perez.

The cubs are going to be improved over last season but as of right now I put them at best around 85 wins and probably 3rd or 4th place.

Flight #24

12-07-2005, 04:15 PM

IMO viewed in isolation, this is a good trade for the Cubs. They trade 3 guys who were unlikely to be contributors for at least the next 2-3 years for a guy that can help them win in 2006.

However, viewed in context of the rest of their team, this move maybe gets them from 79 to 83 wins, i.e. not enough to make a difference. So unless they can add some help at SP, OF, MI - they traded potential future guys for a guy that doesn't help them win anything of consequence in '06. If your goal is to win titles, and this is your only move, it's a bad one unless you resign Pierre to a below market deal, and given the current market for leadoff hitters as evidenced by Furcal, I don't see that happening.

spiffie

12-07-2005, 04:31 PM

ok, so i have a question. with the addition of pierre, my scrub fan friend thinks they will make the playoffs, and wants me to bet him as much as $50 on it (i'm 15, so thats a ton of money for me). i dont think they have a shot in hell with the astros and the cardinals in that division, and the braves and mets in the east. anyone have some advice?
Can I get in on this action? :cool:

elrod

12-07-2005, 04:34 PM

Mitre sucks. But Pinto and Nolasco were great at AA West Tenn.

Pinto:10-3, 2.71
Nolasco: 14-3, 2.89

Pinto started in AAA Iowa and got rocked, but then took off down in AA. I'd say Pinto is still a few years away. But Nolasco could be a serious stud pitcher.

If the Cubs sign Pierre to an extension then this trade makes sense. Otherwise, they gave up too much for a rent-a-player with a declining batting average. Pierre only hit .276, with an equally mediocre OBP of .326. He's a genuine stolen base threat, but if his OBP stays down in .320s, he's a real bust from the leadoff spot. The good thing about him is that he doesn't strike out much. But he also doesn't walk much. Overall, he's a huge upgrade over the CF they had last year. And if Murton continues to develop then they'll have some solid players in the outfield - at least 2/3 of the outfield.

Ol' No. 2

12-07-2005, 04:37 PM

IMO viewed in isolation, this is a good trade for the Cubs. They trade 3 guys who were unlikely to be contributors for at least the next 2-3 years for a guy that can help them win in 2006.

However, viewed in context of the rest of their team, this move maybe gets them from 79 to 83 wins, i.e. not enough to make a difference. So unless they can add some help at SP, OF, MI - they traded potential future guys for a guy that doesn't help them win anything of consequence in '06. If your goal is to win titles, and this is your only move, it's a bad one unless you resign Pierre to a below market deal, and given the current market for leadoff hitters as evidenced by Furcal, I don't see that happening.The Cubs are full of holes, but you have to fill them one at a time. Their bullpen sucked, and it's now better. They desperately needed a leadoff man, and they got one. Murton will stay in LF, so they need a RF, a SS, a decent catcher and a SP that can stay healthy. They're not where they need to be, but they're moving in the right direction.

jerry myers

12-07-2005, 04:39 PM

good for the team, bad for the player.

BeviBall!

12-07-2005, 04:43 PM

The cubs fleeced them.

CaptainBallz

12-07-2005, 04:56 PM

Can I get in on this action? :cool:

I'll spot you for a cut. That's a sure thing.

Exit_Only

12-07-2005, 05:27 PM

The Cubs are full of holes, but you have to fill them one at a time. Their bullpen sucked, and it's now better. They desperately needed a leadoff man, and they got one. Murton will stay in LF, so they need a RF, a SS, a decent catcher and a SP that can stay healthy. They're not where they need to be, but they're moving in the right direction.

There's nothing wrong with the Cubs catching situation. Barrett and Blanco are a good combination and Hendry is definately not looking to upgrade there.

Hangar18

12-07-2005, 05:30 PM

I think this was a bad trade for the Cubs. Mitre's going to be good. If the Cubs had to give up Mitre, the Sox would have had to give up McCarthy to get Pierre. No way we do that deal. Pierre's not worth Marte. (And Marte stinks)

Hendry 100% of the time GIVES UP PLAYERS that have already STUNK for the Cubs. Hes NEVER given up a "prospect" without trying him out at the MLB level. Thats why the Pirates were so Stupid to accept Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez, when they couldve had an A level minor-leaguer. We gave away 2 very good pitchers to the Phillies to get Thome (didnt I predict a couple years ago that Thome would end up eventually being traded to Chicago? )
KW makes this deal, and hes trading McCarthy and Sweeney.

Hendry 100% of the time GIVES UP PLAYERS that have already STUNK for the Cubs. Hes NEVER given up a "prospect" without trying him out at the MLB level. Thats why the Pirates were so Stupid to accept Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez, when they couldve had an A level minor-leaguer. We gave away 2 very good pitchers to the Phillies to get Thome (didnt I predict a couple years ago that Thome would end up eventually being traded to Chicago? )
KW makes this deal, and hes trading McCarthy and Sweeney.

It's called a team in salary dump mode getting beat up on by the guys with the big bank accounts. This is not Hendry being a genius( I do like Hendry, despite working for the Tribune), it's him taking advantage of the poor teams.

As far as this trade, it's a ****ing steal for the Cubs, who didn't part with ANY of they're top prospects for one of the best leadoff hitters in Basball.

He's not done ripping teams off yet. The Cubs have two more holes to fill and they have four months to do it.

Ol' No. 2

12-07-2005, 05:38 PM

Hendry 100% of the time GIVES UP PLAYERS that have already STUNK for the Cubs. Hes NEVER given up a "prospect" without trying him out at the MLB level. Thats why the Pirates were so Stupid to accept Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez, when they couldve had an A level minor-leaguer. We gave away 2 very good pitchers to the Phillies to get Thome (didnt I predict a couple years ago that Thome would end up eventually being traded to Chicago? )
KW makes this deal, and hes trading McCarthy and Sweeney.

Hendry somehow has turned:
Sergio Mitre for Juan Pierre
Francis Beltran/Alex Gonzalez into Nomar Garciaparra/Matt Murton.
Jose Hernandez/Bobby Hill into Aramis Ramirez/Kenny Lofton
Ray Sadler into Randall Simon
Julian Tavarez into Alfatseca/Matt Clement
Some schmuck pitcher for Tony Womack
some career minor-leaguer to Tampa for Fred McGriff,
Sammy Sosa and heavy contract into Jerry Hairston
LaTroy Hawkins into Jerome Williams
Hee Seop Choi into Derrek Lee,
Todd Hundley into Grudzilenek/Karros,
Brant Brown for Jon Lieber
I could go on and on .............Yeah. All Kenny did was turn a few players into this: http://mlb.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMLB2-2356718reg.jpg

Banix12

12-07-2005, 06:47 PM

Hendry 100% of the time GIVES UP PLAYERS that have already STUNK for the Cubs. Hes NEVER given up a "prospect" without trying him out at the MLB level. Thats why the Pirates were so Stupid to accept Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez, when they couldve had an A level minor-leaguer. We gave away 2 very good pitchers to the Phillies to get Thome (didnt I predict a couple years ago that Thome would end up eventually being traded to Chicago? )
KW makes this deal, and hes trading McCarthy and Sweeney.

Brant Brown for Lieber I believe came under the Ed Lynch regime and I believe a few of these came under the Andy McPhail GM Regime. And in any deal involving prospects there is the potential to get burned on it. Many have said that the cubs got burned on the Alfonseca for Tavarez deal because one of the minor leaguers the Marlins asked for was Dontrelle Willis (of course that is in hindsight which is always 20/20).

And guys like Karros, Grudzielanek, Simon and Womack. Other than Grudzielanek, who comepletely revitalized his career, these were guys who nobody else really wanted that bad. The cubs just got them at a time when they caught fire.

Baseball America rates the prospects received in this trade as #7 (Nolasco) and #11 (Pinto) respectively in the cubs system. Whether they gave up anything will be decided on their development. But while there are better ranked pitchers in the cubs system, it's not like they were giving up organizational players.

EDIT: I would also say that you are dead wrong on the sosa trade. Sure they dumped him but they didn't dump his contract. They STILL had to pay his entire salary and the only players he could get in return were a utility man who tends to get lazy on the basepaths, a middle infield prospect (on a team with loads of middle infield prospects), and a minor league pitcher who retired right after the trade. The process of trading sosa took the entire offseason which prevented them from making any improvements to the team and they couldn't get a player of complimentary value. As much as we hate sosa around here he was still a 30-40 HR threat the year before. They traded him and enough money to cover his contract and that was the best he could get?

DrCrawdad

12-07-2005, 11:51 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250647

So the eternal question - will this give legions of Flubs fans false hopes for 2006?

It's not even a question. Most Cub fans have unrealistic hopes each season regardless of the team that the Cubs field. If the Cubs put the hobbled Ron Santo at 3rd next season Cub fans would loudly boast about that being a great move.

Most Cub fans attend the Ernie Banks school of dopiness.

SoxSpeed22

12-08-2005, 12:04 AM

Most Cub fans attend the Ernie Banks school of dopiness.He was Mr. Cub, after all.
This is a necessary move for them. But they still got ways to go.

Tragg

12-08-2005, 09:39 AM

Hendry 100% of the time GIVES UP PLAYERS that have already STUNK for the Cubs. Hes NEVER given up a "prospect" without trying him out at the MLB level. Thats why the Pirates were so Stupid to accept Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez, when they couldve had an A level minor-leaguer. We gave away 2 very good pitchers to the Phillies to get Thome (didnt I predict a couple years ago that Thome would end up eventually being traded to Chicago? )
KW makes this deal, and hes trading McCarthy and Sweeney.

In no way did the Cubs steal PIerre. They gave up two solid prospects and a pitcher who isn't that bad.

I agree with you in this sense - Williams consistently gives more than other GMs in similar situations. It's annoying, but no one's perfect. Williams also has few peers in understanding baseball among the GMs. Since the day he took over, he tried to develop a foundation via pitching and up the middle defense. He made mistakes along the way, but got it done. He also manages the budget extremely well.

Hendry, on the other hand, seems to get "good value" in most of his deals; unfortunately, the players he gets are not what the Cubs need. He doesn't know how to build a ball club.This year, he addresses the bullpen, after doing ZERO to improve it for several years. Last year, he downgraded from Alou/Sosa to Hollingsworth/Burnitz, without plugging additional holes etc like Williams did when Maggs/Lee left. Hendry has NEVER addressed his up the middle defense, going into last year with a horrid middle infield of Nomar and Todd Walker. So he tries for Furcal - wonderful, but what's plan B? And for a team as defensively lousy as the Cubs, his answer in CF is a good hit/no field center fielder.
Great value, medicore team.

It's Time

12-08-2005, 11:02 AM

In no way did the Cubs steal PIerre. They gave up two solid prospects and a pitcher who isn't that bad.

I agree with you in this sense - Williams consistently gives more than other GMs in similar situations. It's annoying, but no one's perfect. Williams also has few peers in understanding baseball among the GMs. Since the day he took over, he tried to develop a foundation via pitching and up the middle defense. He made mistakes along the way, but got it done. He also manages the budget extremely well.

Hendry, on the other hand, seems to get "good value" in most of his deals; unfortunately, the players he gets are not what the Cubs need. He doesn't know how to build a ball club.This year, he addresses the bullpen, after doing ZERO to improve it for several years. Last year, he downgraded from Alou/Sosa to Hollingsworth/Burnitz, without plugging additional holes etc like Williams did when Maggs/Lee left. Hendry has NEVER addressed his up the middle defense, going into last year with a horrid middle infield of Nomar and Todd Walker. So he tries for Furcal - wonderful, but what's plan B? And for a team as defensively lousy as the Cubs, his answer in CF is a good hit/no field center fielder.
Great value, medicore team.

That's a great post. I actually do like Hendry but I feel his hands are tied by that pathetic company he works for. You're post is pretty much 100% spot on, although I think Pierre is just what the Cubs need but they have about three other holes that he hasn't even addressed yet..

voodoochile

12-08-2005, 11:29 AM

Hendry 100% of the time GIVES UP PLAYERS that have already STUNK for the Cubs. Hes NEVER given up a "prospect" without trying him out at the MLB level. Thats why the Pirates were so Stupid to accept Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez, when they couldve had an A level minor-leaguer. We gave away 2 very good pitchers to the Phillies to get Thome (didnt I predict a couple years ago that Thome would end up eventually being traded to Chicago? )
KW makes this deal, and hes trading McCarthy and Sweeney.