Hands-on: The Vive Pro is Much More Than an Improved Screen

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Second Chance With a Second Camera

Photo by Road to VR

The single camera on the original Vive was initially intended to be used for pass-through video, and it was hoped that developers would find interesting ways to exploit it for other purposes. For whatever reason, developers haven’t seemed very interested, and even many users ignore its pass-through ability. For many, it seems like the Vive’s camera has been forgotten about.

Rather than scrapping it, HTC is giving the camera a second chance, this time pairing it up with a partner. With two cameras on the front, users should get a wider field of view for pass-through, and now the view can be 3D as well, which could make the difference in user traction thanks to stereo making it easier to interact with the real-world. If it’s more useful out of the box, perhaps developers will pay it more interest as well.

Stereo cameras could be more useful for what developers might dream up. For instance, attempts at hand-tracking and computer vision processing could be improved with stereo-disparity information. HTC doesn’t seem to be positioning the cameras as usable for inside-out positional tracking, but maybe someone will try to hack that together anyway.

SteamVR Tracking 2.0 Ready and Waiting

And then there’s SteamVR Tracking 2.0 support. When the Vive Pro launches later this quarter, it won’t ship with 2.0 base stations (it will be a headset-only offering initially), but it does have the latest sensors which will support the 2.0 base stations when they arrive.

The new sensors work with the 2.0 base stations to improve range; HTC says the Vive Pro will be able to track effectively up to 10 × 10 meter volumes. Up to four 2.0 base stations can also be used in conjunction for greater tracking covering. While most home users won’t be able to make use of all of that tracking space, it means the Vive Pro has greater tracking flexibility, either for consumers who want to push the limits, or for commercial/enterprise use-cases where large tracking spaces are more viable.

Knuckles Would Tip the Scale to Next-Gen

Photo by Road to VR

Update (1/15/18): HTC has confirmed that the Vive Pro will ship with updated wand controllers, not Valve’s Knuckles. More details here.

The idea of a ‘next-gen’ can be nebulous, but it’s generally taken to mean ‘a material difference from what came before’ and often ‘upgrades with little/no downgrades’. The Vive Pro, with its various improvements, feels like it’s almost into that next-gen territory, but still close to call. If the headset gets paired up with Valve’s forthcoming Knuckles VR controllers within the next six months or so, I think the complete package will pass that next-gen threshold.

Photo by Road to VR

Today at CES, HTC announced that the Vive Pro would be first shipping sometime in Q1 as the headset only. That means it would be used with the old Vive wand controllers, with both the headset and the controllers utilizing 1.0 tracking. HTC said that later in the year the Vive Pro will eventually ship with 2.0 base stations and controllers, but they didn’t specify which controllers. 2.0 base stations aren’t compatible with the current Vive wand controllers, so it will either be a the same wand controller with updated 2.0 sensors, or something completely new.

Valve has been in ongoing development of the new Knuckles controllers since at least last year. Kunckles are more compact than the fairly bulky Vive wands, and are effectively ‘worn’ on the hand as much as they are held. That allows the user to ‘let go’ of the controller as needed, while having something physical to grab onto when making a grabbing gesture. The controllers also offer capacitive finger sensing for finger tracking.

Knuckles development kit | Image courtesy Cloudhead Games

Given the way that Valve and HTC collaborated in the past to create the Vive, the natural conclusion is that HTC will eventually adopt the Knuckles controllers as part of the Vive system, but they have been tight lipped on when that might happen. It’s possible that the company will announce that Knuckles will be included with the Vive Pro when it’s packaged up with new controllers and the 2.0 base stations in a cohesive kit later this year, but we’ll have to wait and see.

The Big Question: Price

I talked a lot above about how I think the Vive Pro is a pretty impressive upgrade over the original Vive. It’s a very welcomed improvement that stands to make PC VR feel fresh for 2018. But a huge question remains, and it’s one that HTC purposefully steered clear of at today’s announcement: price.

No matter how good a headset is, a price point that feels too high can significantly hamper its ability to stimulate the market. HTC’s ‘Pro’ designation of the headset gives us pause. Although home users will be happy with the improvements, HTC’s positioning of the Vive Pro feels like its pivoting toward enterprise and commercial users. The company has been selling the ‘Vive Business Edition’ into those sectors at $1,200 pop; a price point that’s untenable even for many of the most hardcore VR consumers.

If the Vive Pro is priced any higher than the original Vive at its launch ($800), expect significant disappointment from the early adopters that have been evangelizing the Vive from their homes. HTC says they’ll share more specifics about availability and pricing of the Vive Pro later this year. Only then will we have a clear picture of how much of a splash the headset stands to make.

Exactly. All just hype nonsence for this shit failing company. Crap reporting

Raphael

Shutup you boring mong.

Lee Ø’Neill

What a dickhead

Muddy

Lol sounds like it’s past your bed time twelve year old :)

Richard

Go fiddle with your gen1 Vive crap dickhead. This guy makes a good point

Muddy

Sounds like it’s someone else’s bedtime too :)

Heimdal

Ur a cunt m8

Mei Ling

Problem is VR enthusiasts are critical about stuff like this and rest assured they will be looking carefully at every square inch of the screen to draw up comparisons especially now that they have adapted to the original Vive and it’s quirks.

Laurence Nairne

Being critical of our current technical abilities is exactly what drives progress. It’s not just being negative. By vocalising what is important to the consumers/end users, it gives hardware engineers (who have no idea what people want, but just like making cool shit) a target to aim for.

Without enthusiasts and early adopters, you get nothing. No advances that work for you, no exciting developments that you may someday be able to afford. Nothing. It’s fine being ok with what is currently available, but just remember, it’s only because of the enthusiasts that have been active in this space for circa 30 years that you have today’s products.

Mos Eisley

They said back in 2016 that we need 16K x 16K for perfect clarity, with a 180 FOV.

“Today’s “2K” panels are not dense enough to make full use of our visual acuity, and we have a long way to go before we can build the insanely high-resolution panels needed. Michael Abrash, former Valve employee and current chief scientist of Oculus, has said that a “16K by 16K” resolution would be needed for “retinal resolution” with a 180-degree field of view.”

We’re only just coming out with 8K tv’s, and the hardware in our pc’s can barely handle the 1K x 1K Rift and Vive as it is. Though that’s with a 1.5 supersampling by default. The Samsung Odyssey and Vive Pro use the same screens, and are 1.5K x 1.5K.. or 3K in the VR world, but not a true 3K display. That requires (4) 1.5K screens. The Samsung Odyssey.. by virtually all reports out there… is night and day compared to the ‘old version’. Yes, you can still see the screen door effect.. but it’s a fine grain, and it’s really only noticeable if you’re actually looking for it.. instead of focusing on the game itself. As for the same FOV… pretty much every headset out there, except for IMAX and Pimax.. are the same 110 or less. But then it comes down to optics.. and the sweet spot. On the Vive 1.0, the edges are blurred.. as the ‘New Year’s Resolution’ tweet indicated. The clear spot in the center.. is the sweet spot. So if the lenses are only clear in the center.. then the extra FOV is useless. But even with newer lenses.. as they suggested.. anyone who wears glasses, like myself, already has a limited FOV.. and you get used to it pretty damn quick. Even the VR glasses out there… 110 FOV. A full 210 FOV would be nice.. but it’s not going to ruin the experience if it’s only 110.

dk

and dp1.4 can do only uncompressed 8k at 30hz……not to mention video cards
reaching 20/20 vision will be super hard …..with traditional displays…..but apparently having a secondary small display with high res following your gaze is doable…..at least to some extent ….and a few companies r working on that

Mos Eisley

If you’re talking about foveated rendering by means of eye tracking.. which can reduce GPU load by as much as 50%… Tobii seems to be the company HTC’s working with, and they’ve already sent the SDKs out to the devs back in May. I was expecting them to be included with ‘this’ release, but not just yet I guess. But still.. that only allows 2x the maximum resolution we can run on our current hardware. Pimax has an 8K.. but it’s really only a 2x 4K. They have an 8KX in the plans as well.. a true 2x 8K. They also have eye tracking as one of their goals for the regular 8K.. which would be 50% of 2x 4K screens… or 2x 2K screens. On our current hardware. It’s not the speed of the GPUs.. it’s the amount of VRAM memory. I’ve read something about a 16GB card in the works… but if a 11GB 1080Ti costs $800 US.. before tax… what the hell will a 16GB card cost? The need for a high end pc just for VR is what’s holding VR back as it is. Maybe they could do something where the pc does some of the rendering, and the headset does the rest with the Snapdragon, or whatever the mobile headsets are using. That would definitely cut back on the GPU load on the pc side.

dk

no I am talking about having 2 displays per eye one big one and one small one and the small one is always at the centre of your vision
like the varjo display and one more company…..and probably other big companies
the schematic looks like this https://i0.wp.com/www.kguttag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Varjo-diagram-02.png
and both displays can be something like 1080p(or a bit higher) and the small one is much higher ppi because of the size of it and u can get 20/20 vision more or less ….and apparently this will do the trick

getting there with standard displays will take forever….since a top card can hardly reach 60 fps with a single 4k monitor with a simple game with low requirements

Mos Eisley

That’s a single display, with a single lens.. not 2 displays. An OLED Micro’display’, and a Microdisplay ‘Lens’. And seeing as they’re marketing it as ‘Foveated’.. that tells me it’s for foveated rendering. In fact.. a quick google spits out an article on Engadget…

“So how does it work? The information is pretty vague, but Varjo says it combined a context display, focus display, optical combiner and gaze tracker into a “bionic display” for human-eye resolution in VR, AR and XR. The company adds that the system has low computing requirements thanks to “foveated eye tracking.””

So.. it’s the same thing as Tobii. It still only reduces GPU load by as much as 50%. It tracks your gaze, then renders that portion of the screen.. which is what the human eye does naturally already. We can’t see the edges of our vision clearly, only the center. 7invensun also has a drop-in eye trackers for the Vive, called aGlass, but it was only released in China.

edit: looking at that image again.. it does say microdisplay and larger display. So.. I was wrong.. sort of. They’re still using eye tracking for foveated rendering.. but with 2 screens per eye. All I can say.. 2 screens per eye doesn’t make much sense when you can just use regular displays in the first place.

Thanks. From another article I was reading, they called it ‘foveated projection’, which sounded like 1 set of lenses and screens was then magnified by the other set of lenses/screens. Something like sending a 2K resolution, but spitting out a 4K instead. Still need a better explanation.. lol. And I still think the eye trackers and single lens/screen per eye will be the best.. and easiest in the long run. At least until ‘Tested’ proves otherwise. :P

https://varjo.com/bionic-display/ scroll down on this page ……..it’s an interesting solution ….if it works pretty good and can be scaled up for bigger fov and it’s reliable over time……might be a very neat way of going around the resolution problem

Mos Eisley

So… it’s a physically moving part? Nvidia already has the drivers that work with eye trackers to render only the area you’re actually looking at.. no need for moving parts whatsoever.

dk

until someone takes it apart or there is a patent about it ….it won’t be clear exactly how it works……but something has to move the small image where u r looking …..at first I was thinking they might be moving the small screen around but apparently u can do it with the reflector

……and moving parts sounds weird to me too ….but who knows might be reliable….the standard way will take soooo looong

Mos Eisley

Looking at the picture on that site.. it has a layer that moves with your gaze. The schematic you posted, has a ‘beam splitter’, and it clearly says ’tiltable’. It’s the same layer in the picture on the link you provided, showing a clear layer tilting up and down, left to right. Too many parts that can break. 2 screens, 2 lenses, and 1 tiltable layer.. per eye. That’s a complete redesign of the headset. Why.. when single screens with single lenses… foveated rendering through eye trackers is all you need to begin with. Simple, more durable, and definitely cheaper. Even ‘if’ the secondary screen and lens are smaller than the main pair… screens aren’t frigging cheap.

dk

well the schematic is basically the same thing only nothing is moving ….it also says tillable after “beam slitter” which is just a fancy way of saying reflector
I was just saying that at first I thought they might be moving the screen ….when I saw on the roadtovr that they mention 2 screens per eye

Mos Eisley

Did you even look at the page you linked? It clearly shows a movable layer… actually moving. I’ve been dealing with electronics and building from schematics for more than 15 years. If a schematic says ’tiltable’.. then it’s a moving part.

I’m not bashing… I’m just saying, that in my personal opinion as a consumer.. I wouldn’t want it over the way Tobii and Nvidia have it figured out.

cheers.

dk

I was just clarifying something ….about when I first heard about it
…..and that it’s not clear exactly how they r moving the reflector until it gets taken apart or there is a patent

Mos Eisley

Does it matter ‘how’ they move it? The fact is.. it moves. Period. How.. is irrelevant.

I’m done. Cheers.

Yoan Conet

They just have to move a mirror to move the projection/dematerialized screen not the physical screen itself.
To get its Eye resolution, the screen has been shrunkened into a tiny projection that can follow the eye thanx to a moving mirror.

dk

well the answer to why is …..we can have this in about a year and basically affordable…..and 8k per eye or much more will come in basically 10 years or more

Mos Eisley

8K per eye.. and video cards that can barely handle 2K per eye. You need hardware to support them first. SLI won’t work. Even if it did.. that’s only an increase in speed, not memory needed for resolution size.

dk

yep it will take forever to get there

Yoan Conet

In simple terms they have “shrunken a micro screen” in fact the
projection resulting in a smaller version (dematerialized screen) and so with a huge high pixel density due the “shrunkenization”.
Being just a projection a dematerialized screen, this shrunkized screen can follow the eye at very high speed

Yoan Conet

In simple terms they have “shrunken a micro screen” in fact the projection resulting in a smaller version (dematerialized screen) and so with a huge high pixel density due the “shrunkenization”.
Being just a projection a dematerialized screen, this shrunkized screen can follow the eye at very high speed.

Mos Eisley

Still doesn’t make sense to have 2 screens, instead of a single screen and eye trackers for foveated rendering.. like Tobii’s already doing. Tobii’s been doing eye tracking for nearly a decade, and Nvidia’s had the foveated rendering down to a science for a few years now.

Heimdal

Then get the fucking pimax. It has such “great FOV”. Even though you are still looking at lenses with black rings around it so there is that much bigger bottleneck in immersion still present. It’s obvious that the vive pro has much less screen door.

Laurence Nairne

I can’t help but feel this is a mediocre movement in the right direction that’s stalling for a big change – all this serves to suggest is that a true upgrade is now going to be further away. They’re practically giving the FOV mantle to PIMAX (if they manage to get their shit together this side of 2020).

All I’ve really got from this is housing updates, extra front camera (because nobody was asking for it) and a slight bump to screen resolution that isn’t even enough to fully eradicate SDE and aliasing issues. For once I find myself agreeing with LucidFeuer. The fact that it’s not even launching with Lighthouse 2.0 or improved controllers says it’s a lazy sub-iteration from a company that has the funds to do much better.

Ironically there is nothing “Pro” about their commitment to developing VR hardware to a point where it’s a wise investment for mass market.

gothicvillas

if they increased the resolution to 8k and FOV to 200 then over 50% of users would be locked out due to GPU requirements. It makes sense for them to make small steps but keep steady progress in the right direction.

M Rob

Probably the most sensible comment in this thread. Instant purchase for me.

Jistuce

That color is so nostalgic. Comes straight off of a bunch of the PC gear from the late 90s.
Can’t tell if it is closer to Logitech or IBM’s shade, though. Probably Logitech’s.

Can you comprehend how many generations of graphics cards will need to be released before 8K 90hz is even a possibility on the lowest settings?

8K headsets are at least 3-5 years away.

Unless you want an 8K HDR 220 fov slideshow for the next half decade, I’d put up and shut up.

Ed

Or…you run the Pimax 8k downscaled to whatever resolution your PC can handle. SteamVR has an option to do this.

Downscale to something equivalent to the vive pro for now (less so for less demanding games) and then when you get a new GPU you don’t need to buy a whole new headset.

Just a thought.

The Duke

apart from the fact it’ll look awful compared to native Rez.
What’s the point?
The vive 2 will be out by the time you can run a Pimax properly.
It’ll probably have built in wireless and hi res OLED screens at 90hz at least by that point.

Ed

Well apart from the face that you always benefit from lower screendoor (which bugs the piss out of me) you won’t need to downscale for many things. Plenty of VR experiences are pretty lightweight, bigscreen or VR cinema jumps out as somewhere where the extra resolution won’t be hard to drive and will be very useful. Looks like the Vive 2/pro is only a modest bump over vive 1 (dual 1400 by 1600 displays) so that’s not going to compete and they won’t be releasing anything better for a couple years if they stick to their current release schedule (oculus CV2 may though to be fair).

I fully expect to be able to play elite dangerous or DCS/IL2 on the pimax at full resolution though reduced detail settings on my 1080ti and I expect that tradeoff to be better than a vive at max detail but not being able to see anything but a blocky mess at any distance. vive is pretty much unplayable to me in any game where I need to look into the distance.

The wires don’t bug me, the extra colour and contrast of OLED is nice but now the persistence issues of LCD have been solved I class that as just a “a nice to have” while resolution is the number one limitation on my current system as it outright stops me using it for lots of things. Different strokes for different folks, some people don’t care about the SDR effect or the resolution much and care about the other bits more. I’m not one of them.

Laurence Nairne

Erm, I think that was the point gothicvillas was making…

The Duke

50% if VR users do NOT have the gfx card power to run 8K at 90hz. 50% in 3-5 years maybe!

ChrisVR

Your absolutly right. This is just a stalling tactic. You wont see anything good from yhese clowns for the next 2 years

Why do you hate HTC so much? They created one of the two premier consumer VR systems at the outset of consumer VR. What’s to hate about that?

Rex Thorne

Maybe he’s had to deal with their horrific support. The Vive is great, but HTC is a nightmare.

David Carter

Its an improved version, what more do you want? Buy it or don’t. I never bough the Vive or Rift because I felt they weren’t good enough, every new upgrade that comes along brings me closer to deciding to buy.

As it is the Pro, I assume the original Vive will drop it’s price to Rift territory.

Laurence Nairne

I expect you’re right. I also expect that Pro will be cheaper than the original Vive when it’s shipping as just a headset – though I’ve been wrong before :D

craylon

I will probably update as well if the pro is sub $600. Small steps are better then no steps..
I also think that a PIMAX version one can buy at amazon or other sources is likely a year away. So for me, I might be forced to/ hope to update in 2019 as well.
The only thing I am kind of worried about is that the full kit is only available later this year and I am not sure what to do with my gen 1 Vive.
Overall I think they would have done a greater service to the VR community generating a bigger secondary market for affordable used Vives to draw in more people but its prolly a business decision so they can continue to sell gen1 through out 2018.

Laurence Nairne

You’re right, small is better than nothing, but I can’t help but cast a cynical view on HTC’s VR strategy since releasing the Vive.

1). They release their standalone heaset only in China
2). Their decided update to a device released 21 months ago is improved housing and more pixels

It’s not about VR improving, more about a company putting little to no effort into improving the industry’s expectations – at least on a public scale. What about eye tracking? What about launching with updated lighthouse? Improved controllers (and I don’t just mean knuckles)? Hand presence?

It’s not all about the FOV or pixel density (though I admit I focused on those in my original comment), there are so many improvements available for VR now and they’ve just straight ignored them – hell it’s meant to be a Pro version.

Stefan Küppers

I agree. Sadly I totally lack the engineering knowledge or market insight to know how easy innovations like eyetracking or better lenses can be integrated.
One thing I feel tough is, that despite their pioneer work HTC is not the “Apple” of VR. I don’t see how they can be successfull charging premium prices without topping for example the samsung odessey in tech

Laurence Nairne

Lenses is a contentious subject based on the fact that they purchase them from Samsung, a competitor.

For eye-tracking, there’s already a third party solution available built to slot into the Vive, so it’s not a stretch to imagine they could have done a deal with a supplier to integrate.

People will continue to tell me that it’s my cynical VR hater attitude that makes me expect this kind of progress though.

dude

PIMAX is bringing a product to market that the general audience won’t even be able to use. Until methods are put into place to render the space only where your eyes are looking (eye tracking), it will be too taxing on PCs to render 8K (or even 4K for most users) worth of pixels every frame.

The sooner people understand that for the mean time VR will progress like the display industry (a little step each time) the better they will be. The first company to nail down eye tracking for VR will be the golden ticket for headsets like the PIMAX.

Hans Wurst

Pimax is just a scam anyway, Who would even want an LCD screen in his VR headset. It’s a bad decision.

ZeePee

Valve themselves have stated that new developments in LCD technology make LCD a viable and cheaper alternative to OLED.

LCD is no longer unacceptable for VR, it works now.

Pimax have demonstrated their headset and its functions as OLED does.

The only downside is slightly worse contrast and colour. This is something Pimax claims the patented tech for their LCDs are closer to OLED.

Looking at all the reviews of the demos given for many people, this seems to hold true. Colour and contrast is good, and not at all notably worse. There is little apparent difference according to the hands on demos.

Hans Wurst

seriously?! All reviews and previews I’ve seen of Pimax were pretty sobering tbh.

ZeePee

That isn’t true.

Pimax are launching two headsets.

The 8k and the 8kx.

The 8kx is native 4k per eye. That is of course not for the masses.

Pimax 8k, on the other hand, has an input resolution of 2650×1440 per eye, and is upscaled to 2640p.

If the “general audience” can’t use a Pimax 8k, chances are they won’t be able to use a Vive Pro.

The requirements aren’t much higher. You need a 1070 to run the Pimax 8k. Pimax has their own version of Oculus’s Asynchronous Space Warp in the works that greatly reduces the power needed.

If Pimax 8k, if they deliver, is effectively an early gen 2, clearly far more so than the Vive Pro.

The Pimax 8k, along with higher resolution than Vive Pro, will have 200 degrees FoV, as opposed to 110.

It will also come with it’s own version of the knuckles controllers.

Waiting on LG to show their VR system, as they have said it is a “next gen” headset.

Atm, if Pimax 8k delivers and is priced competitively, it’s a gen 2 headset that goes way beyond what HTC is offering as a 1.5, and yet it’s out within months of each other.

The Duke

2 4K screens don’t make 8K.
4 4K screens make 8K.
No one points out how the Pimax distorts the image.
What’s the point of a high fov if everything is on the piss?

Ed

Later reviews suggest that the distortion has been corrected. Also yes, the name is slightly deceiving but as there are 8 thousand horizontal pixels (though half the vertical of an 8k tv) it’s not THAT deceptive.

Darshan

“All I’ve really got from this is housing updates, extra front camera
(because nobody was asking for it) and a slight bump to screen
resolution that isn’t even enough to fully eradicate SDE and aliasing
issues”.

They (being the VR department in Valve, since they split the company into sub-groups that must self-sustain from my understanding) might be hurting for funds, actually. The Vive is doing worse than the competition on their own platform. That doesn’t bode well and I really hope they chose a reasonable price point and release the knuckles within the next six-ten months. I don’t want this industry losing competition but Valve isn’t helping themselves very much. They even had to keep this release a secret before the holidays just to milk a few more sales of their older hardware.

Laurence Nairne

Think you’re confusing Valve and HTC there mate. Valve provides the core design principles and are developing Knuckles, but the Vive belongs to HTC.

Valve has little to no input on when HTC chooses to release their hardware.

Valve are laughing because it doesn’t matter who wins in the competition as long as it’s bringing more users to Steam – which it is.

That being said, Vive has held a majority share on Steam since it launched and it’s only in the last month or so that Rift has overtaken due to price point. I’d say this is more a case of hedging their bets than a lack of funds.

JesperL

2 Big questions – Price, and wireless solution. Really need more info on their new wireless addon. Because us with Vive and TPcast are not keen on getting back to a cable. And the current Tpcast will probably not work with the Vive Pro, since it can only support 2K res. – So please give info on new Vive Pro Vireless thingie =)

Justin Davis

Available in the Summer.

sonoran

“In line with this vision of a dual-Vive future, HTC also revealed a wireless adapter that works with both of its VR headsets. This thing uses Intel’s WiGig technology to make the headsets wireless, and it’s due out in the summer.”

ChrisVR

No Road to VR! Knuckles would not tip the scales to next gen. This is a VIVE 1.5 It hasthe aame fucking lenses as the first one. It doesn not have the fantastic new samsung displays annoumced in May amd it does not have the new lenses developed by Valve

This is the only piece of crap we will see from HTC for the next 2 years

Is it just me, or is the Vive Pro… erm… “aesthetically unsatisfactory”? If so, that could be a deal-breaker for many consumers… I’d personally perfer the Deluxe audio strap.

JesperL

How the HMD looks, is probably at the bottom of my wishlist, right next to I don’t give a f… :)
I think for most people, they will buy any shit-ugly VR set, if the specs, performance and price is just right.
Give me a VR with 200 FOV, 4K that runs 90Fps, with wireless and perfect tracking, for a 300-400$, And It can look like Trumps head for all I care lol.

Just classic stubborn baby boomer talk coming from you mate. Your missing the point on every level

dk

“HTC doesn’t seem to be positioning the cameras as usable for inside-out positional tracking, but maybe someone will try to hack that together anyway.” …….it looks exactly like the same setup as the vive focus

nm

i thought the same may be a secondary solution for tracking, more easy to use

dk

most likely they have something in mind …..in any case it opens a bunch of options …..and a single camera is pretty limiting

MiracleReporter

So it’s basically a Samsung Odyssey with different tracking.

JesperL

Seriously guys – Whine whine whine.. “No bigger FOV”, “Not enough this or that”…
Someone call this stalling. Well they cannot release tech that is not developed yet, so they release the tech they can, and If they didnt, you would be whining over no release at all. Don’t you think, that If they could make a good 200 FOV solution, then they would?
– Stop the crappy whining like a 8 year old who didnt get the right toy for christmas. If you dont like what you get, then dont buy it. Maybe this new release is just the right thing for other people than just you.
– Go ahead and look at Pimax. It promises a LOT, but when will they deliver? You stille need a crazy PC to pull 8K or even 4K on 2 screens. If they had all the solutions, it would be on market by now.
And no, im not a Vive fanboy, I am not impressed with this Pro version. But I learn patience, and just wait for the next better solution.

MiracleReporter

The irony…

Raphael

Entitled spoiled-brat society. The pro version would be an ok upgrade if they didn’t set a premium price and that will be its downfall. I think setting a pro tag means they want to sell it for a business premium which whill certainly alienate vive users. Will there be a discount trade-in for existing vive users? No.

JesperL

Agree – the price will define if this release is any good or not. Its ok to be unhappy with pricing, but people cannot complain that they release with too small FOV or other specs. It is what it is – and if its cheap, then its a great release. But I dont expect cheap on this lol.. Pro tag, is to raise price.

Raphael

I want 200 plus fov but I am happy to take better lenses and pixel density in the meanwhile… but i ain’t paying stupid prices. I think HTC are in for a shock if they think they can keep vive 1 at current price and charge a premium for an upgrade. Targeting vive pro at pro market alienates users.

I guess we have to wait and see but i dont think they really understand competitive pricing.

obsidean

Eat a bag of dicks Rachael

Ellie 187

I’m going to guess they will lower current vive price down to compete with the rift and this pro edition will take the $600 spot…. 2 years is a fairly long time for manufacturing costs to drop significantly…. otherwise I would just buy the Samsung Odyssey Windows MR kit for $450 instead of upgrading my Vive to the pro…. its HTC’s call, if they release this upgrade path for something reasonable ($200-$300 trade-in)

daveinpublic

For me, the question is, what does HTC offer over Samsung at this point? HTC’s Vive has the same screens, and requires basestations. Samsung has gotten good reviews, if not perfect, and accesses the same store. I don’t expect people to flock to Viveport.

Suitch

That is a really good point on the Samsung and I HATE Viveport. It is so awful that they are trying to convince people to never own games.

Laurence Nairne

You technically don’t own any digital content you purchase, though your point about how aggressively Viveport rubs that in your face is valid.

Icebeat

Windows MR integration with SteamVr is far from perfect. I am seeing a lot of glitches, frames freezes and loading screen with my Odyssey than with my Vive.

daveinpublic

People’s price expectation has changed a LOT in the last year. Between Rift, PSVR, and WMR, the average cost of VR has gone down, big time.

you can fuck off. Millennials are the god damn reason vr even has a hype train so be thankful for our pushiness or you would still be dealing with virtual boy level vr. Scrub.

Ellie 187

You sure about that?? Steam survey shows average demographics for VR is 30-50 year olds… the ones with the likely funds to purchase expensive hardware without having to resort to eating ramen noodle for the year to get it.

Aaron Benjamin

As a VR developer, yeah I’m pretty sure

daveinpublic

So a VR developer’s opinion is like a survey?

crychlyd

No, it’s kinda like a holy text.

Suitch

Almost all VR developers are millennials. lol

ummm…

you dont represent all of vr development.

Mudd_Farnkom

Millennials are people born in 1982 and later… So many of them are within that demographic.

ummm…

yeah i was born in 83. imagine my disappointment lol. the sad thing is that there are a lot of “millennials” out there that are giving “us”a bad name. its built in to the politic – and im not sure who is pulling the strings.

brandon9271

1982 sounds like an arbitrary year. Most people that I consider “millennials” would be folks in their teens and early twenties but I guess that’s generation Z. Who knows.. All I know is, many people I meet under the age of 25 appear to be fuckin morons but I’m sure somebody thought the same of me when I was 25! lol

eman2220

millennials have mommy and daddy to buy it for them so they don’t have to find a safe space and sulk

Mr. New Vegas

Millennials are disgrace of humanity, if it was my choice i would of sent all of you to military camps for 10 years

Laurence Nairne

Good luck filling all the roles that you are either too old or to stubborn to know how to do.

Mr. New Vegas

This is hilarious, the only thing Millennials are good at is hiding in their safe spaces, drinking chai-lattes and crying about “unfair world” oh you also good at asking for freebies.

Im sure not all Millennials are like that, but im 37 years old and everything that i hate was invented by the Millennials, SJWism, “proper” pronouns, safe spaces, 3rd wave feminism, 200+ genders, acceptance of gluttony and so on.

When i was young i disliked religion and its effects, but modern Millennial liberalism (which has nothing to do with classical liberalism) is worse than religion, its a-sexual, militant (do like us or else..) and anti-freedom of speech.

Laurence Nairne

And what exactly does this have to do with VR and being critical of what tech giants with billions of $ of R&D cash end up spending it on?

You have to see the blatant hypocrisy in criticising an age demographic for being critical of a product…

Why are you making a discussion about tech become a vitriolic argument about people of a certain age? Have we ruined the world you live in, have we? Have we turned life into some caricature of what you used to thrive on? Have you thought that your generation did the same thing to those who came before you?

Again, point of hypocrisy, in one breath you talk about safe spaces and then you go on to state how we are attacking your safe space with all these newfangled things we’ve created – and that makes you angry.

A final point, I don’t follow any SJW, 3rd/4th/5th wave feminism (whatever they stand for now) or any other bullcrap, much like I didn’t sign up to any other social clubs that existed before that (inc. religion), I just think it’s a bit of a shame that you can’t partake in a discussion about technology and it’s merits/failings without making a blasé statement about all people who reached adulthood in the early 21st century.

ummm…

us millennials also need to police ourselves. our problem is not what we do, but that we have NO principles and that breeds more chaos. we were given a lot to deal with, and we are not doing a better job of it. whatever you think we stood on the shoulders of previous generations that had their own triumphs and failures.

dont get dragged into a pissing match. understand history and human behaviour. what “identity” you have is less important – and needlessly defended. plus, there are some disturbing trends amongst us.

Mr. New Vegas

It wasn’t me, it was Mei Ling that started blaming millennials.
I just used an opportunity to vent my anger at milletards, thats it.

Laurence Nairne

If you look at the thread I’d say your words are definitely the most toxic here. It’s also clear you have the biggest problem with young people as you are straight on the opportunity when it presented itself.

Your argument will never be rational because you’ve attached emotional baggage to it. I dunno who hurt you, but you have my sympathy.

ummm…

homeslice, its not just millennials. disdain for knowledge and dialogue has infected every sector. millennials are young people that have grown up in this atmosphere. it isn’t JUST their doing. people led them down that road too. when they grow up (i was born in 83) people get smarter. let millennials grow up.

lets face it the last few generations did the same thing. its all a cycle. the 60s and 70s werent fun times. the 80s was full of excess. the 90s started to give birth the todays toxic politics.

millennials are young. what is your excuse?

Mr. New Vegas

If we examine this issue, then the real blame is on hippie professors brainwashing whole generation.

ummm…

yeah we have a big problem in academia. im a liberal, played with socialism and marxism in college, but i do see that the “liberal establishment” aren’t defending themselves on principle but are exercising authoritarian or fascistic muscles that are best left unused at the moment. to be fair authoritarianism and fascism are signs that we let the problem get to far, and is never the final solution…………

the far right is largely getting to score points easily on these m0r0ns and the problem is that the people that are getting platforms are the crazies on both sides, or they have hijacked the conversation.

it is people like me, that are moderate intentionally, that decide that facts, context, dialogue and compromise is the way forward. freedom is defined by this.

ummm…

fyi, people are starting to out academia. the “liberal” establishment is starting to realize their fault. now if we can get them to turn it around. for example the gop never gives up on trickle down even when its originators say it doesn’t work as advertised. the left is at risk of entrenching themselves in some political positions that only lead to decades of loss and pain.

ummm…

accidentally downvoted. shouldnt be.

ummm…

good luck running a country i guess. sometimes you have a job because those were the jobs available. like how previous generations created everything by which you build upon. millennials are a demographic that is arbitrary – and only useful if you want to track macro trends. stop thinking as deep as a puddle.

Laurence Nairne

I don’t disagree with you – I don’t put any real value on age based demographics except for trend analysis like you said.

My response to Mr. New Vegas was more of a tongue-in-cheek mimicry of an uncultured, vitriolic attack on “the youth today”.

I believe that those of older generation cannot adapt to a changing job market as much as I believe that millenials are ruining planet earth – which is not at all.

ummm…

no you are giving us too much credit. your are mistaking instrumentality with value. social media is used by our generation – we are pushing boundaries and definitions – but with little to no purpose or understanding of basic principles and history.

this is to say we all may be taking credit for “social media” but its just a network on the internet. Some people have made little apps that allow us to call cabs, or communicate across the globe. ok. that is instrumental. what do we do with it? nothing. it doesn’t change behaviour or human cognition. we aren’t having discussions about meaning or boundaries with all this new “inclusivity” we have used it cynically to make MONEY. Our generation are just on the assembly line – we have yet to harness any of this stuff that was built upon the shoulders of prior generations and affect actual change. look at what the left is doing to this country with the authoritarianaism and fascism. im a classical liberal. this stuff is bad. our social media is busy curating the conversation, manipulating free speech, our social media is being used to enforce conformity to a singular view and not open dialogue through reasoned reflection.

we are not instrumental. we are not shifting paradigms. we are monkeys working new tools. the danger of my generation is that we are replacing principles and finding true value with a cacophony of shouting and white noise.

Laurence Nairne

Was that meant to be a response to me? I’m not giving anyone credit haha.

I was merely stating that making bold, sweeping statements about a demographic is bullshit and pointless.

The discussion of social impact on progress is a much bigger one, probably too big for a VR comment thread.

ummm…

lol true that. enjoy vr. i for one will be waiting for 2.0

ummm…

*we are only instrumental……..(correction)

Blackfire1

Calm down Hitler.

ummm…

you are taking it too far bud. millennials are an easy whipping boy. referencing millennials is never the true deep and nuanced answer to any question.

Mr. New Vegas

Really? Whats wrong with the Army? Its building character, USA should go back to conscription, of course 10 years was exaggeration, but 3 years of mandatory service will be enough to turn metro sissy boys and girls into real productive humans.

ummm…

who mentioned the army?

anyhow, the army is a good place that are seeking structure and some skills.

i dont agree with our military foreign policy.

whats your point?

Jerald Doerr

Now that time has passed and we all know the price for the Vive Pro how do we all feel? Like eating Cup O Noodles or eating Pie? Or going to maintain your current weight?

ummm…

what? WHAT? im 34 son. explain to me what bitter little fantasy you have been playing out in your mind so i can THINK about responding – or go suck your thumb elsewhere. maybe you need to not be throwing stones homeslice.

Jerald Doerr

Lol… You’re crazy! But funny!!! Im sorry I responded to this thread after the allotted 30 days… So send me that tickit offffffficer! I’ll also have to apologize because its the one you bitch and mone in… But don’t be selfish… I asked every one and not just you so get over it kid.

ummm…

Obtuse response. You went down the thread asking everyone he same thing even if it wasn’t relevant to the initial discussion, and you can be bothered to draw a parralel. Looks like we are both comedians.

ummm…

dude. i was born in 83. i grew up playing virtual boy. i was an eaerly adopter in this generation. dont forget who helped build this – not just millenials. chill out.

Suitch

You. They are called you. You are entitled.

dk

lol

ummm…

if you deconstruct how your thought works, then ill respect you. right now what you are whining about is what a lot of anti intellectuals do. trust me im aware of millennial weaknesses (and being born in 83 can be considered one myself) but all generations have weaknesses – and i dont even trust that you know what the weaknesses are. you are just parroting talking heads. take that bs back to the crazy place you came from.

Flap Drol

People blaming millennials for everything can fuck right off.

Blackfire1

Actually, there will be a trade in discount optuon for those who bought a vive last year.

benz145

Where did you hear this?

Suitch

I don’t think he did. There are no reports about it so I am pretty sure he is just trolling.

mirak

Everybody wants it.

oz

well they are gonna sell the pro as a stand alone as well with out all the extra shit for vive owners that all ready have the controls and base stations etc so that might make the head set much cheaper with out the extra junk

J

Yes it was confirmed

Marc-André Désilets

You’r on fire this morning Jesper :) Personally, I think it’s a good update over the first version… without being a revolution. The increase in resolution was needed, but it’s a no brainer. The wireless adapter is great but should be available by default and the headphones I’m simply not a fan. The other problem I have with it is it’s form factor, it’s HUGE! Its a 2000$ tech piece that looks like a cheap plastic toy. I would prefer a better more accessible product. I couldn’t convince myself to replace my oculus with this for now.

agreed… I can see where they would charge full price for the headset and when you receive it, you place your old one in the box and send it back and they send a small core refund so they can refurbish it and resell it.

Kev

The Pimax 8k has an input resolution of 2560×1440 upscaled to 4k per eye. So it’s requirements are not much higher than the Vive Pro. It’s RGB and not Pentile so that is a big plus as well. If it comes out sometime in Q1 they will have quite the advantage.

Yosarin Blake

Hi JesperL, I feel you, I really do, but please see my comment above. The Pimax mob have already PROVEN what is possible (see the extensive, positive reviews on Youtube). I don’t think it’s about being childish, I think it’s just that people are STUNNED that Vive isn’t showing any evidence of even trying to replicate the huge leap forward the Pimax 8k represents (and for a similar price to the original Vive!). Ok cheers!

DutchBoy

Isn’t this clear evidence that Valve has nothing to do with it? HTC is just milking what properties they have control over and further enforcing the fact that Valve did all the R&D and HTC is just a manufacturer with crummy developers.

Yosarin Blake

OK this is something I had not considered. But who ever is behind these had better watch out. Pimax is seriously about to leapfrog the whole field it seems!

Arv

We won’t see 4K displays in the Oculus Rift CV2 next year unless they’ve managed to sort out foveated rendering but sensible money would be on them releasing a headset with 2K displays next year with a small (10-20°) increase in FOV too.

Releasing a headset with 1.5K displays this year with the same FOV as the Vive is a bizarre business decision. It’s going to compete with the Samsung WVR headset this year and sell reasonably well but I can’t see HTC shifting too many units when the Rift CV2 has released next year.

The price of it is also going to be an issue. I can’t see the full bundle going for less than $599/£599 And we’ll see the Rift price coming down to $299/£299 later this year. So will it be worth twice the price of the Rift to most people? I have my doubts.

It looks to me that they’ve nerfed the resolution and FOV of the displays in order to sell their own wireless add-on. That’s the only reason I can think of why they decided to go for 2 x 1.5K displays with a 110°FOV. 2K displays with a 120-130° FOV would have been a winner.

This isn’t a second generation headset imo, it’s halfway between first and second generation.

Suitch

CV2 isn’t coming until 2019 at the earliest. (as long as Oculus has been honest to consumers–unlike Valve who’d been saying there wouldn’t be a major release this year)

DutchBoy

Valve didn’t lie, HTC is the culprit here. Their name shouldn’t have even been on the headset in the first place, but their lawyers held Valve over a barrel for it.

oompah

great product.
but only if its affordable
I can spare upto 250$

Nyco30

Thanks a lot for that hands-on. We are all now waiting for your next one on the Pimax!

The Pimax crowd (on their forums) are quite happy with the Vive Pro announcement. HTC have not leaped ahead really, just matched current tech so a Vive 2 will not be around for another 18+ months. Pimax aims to leap ahead this year so the game is still in their court. Can they do it. Will the v5 blow peoples socks off at CES…lets hope :)

Suitch

I think Pimax has way too much hype for how much they have delivered: nothing. I hope they will be good, but all we have is hope. I think people overestimate how much pixels matter. The biggest issues for VR are not visual, but physical. Locomotion, perfected hand presence, more senses, etc.

Hans Wurst

PIMAX is going to suck hard with its LCD screen. Terrible choice

Rex Thorne

Just another stupid comment from Hans the worst.

Hans Wurst

Then why are you upvoting my comments elsewhere?! LMAO

GigaSora

Looks like this upgrade puts the Vive pro on par with Oculus’ headset. Suck it Oculus.

Pablo C

on par? it puts it way over.

GigaSora

Thats not what the CEO of HTC said:
“This pretty much puts us on par now. Suck it Oculus.” -HTC CEO

Laurence Nairne

Bold.

Mei Ling

The fact that you mentioned the Vive finally being “on par” with the Oculus Rift with the Pro, about 2 years later, pretty much sums up the quality of their product range.

GigaSora

Just because rift was able to produce a better product two years earlier doesnt mean the vive pro cant be on par now.

Mei Ling

Well technically you didn’t mention the original HTC Vive as being “on par” with the Rift so I came in and basically did the rest. You’re welcome.

Ellie 187

I’m not following if the Oculus is still two 1080p panels and the Vive Pro is two 1440p panels…. does not compute.

CURTROCK

So, if its now on par, will they be selling it for $399, like the Rift?

Jistuce

Welp, I took it as given they’d be improving the lens situation. Oh well.

As someone who’s owned: DK2, Vive, PSVR and RIft CV1 (in that order) I am fully aware, as many are, of the issues with VR. What is vital is a ‘balanced’ system (not talking about head weight). That is, rapid wear ability, fast into software, great controls, zero downtime (rapid change of AA batteries/rechargables in magnetised oculus touch covers for example).. then onto things like resolution, clarity, black levels, god rays.

The fact remains that in gen 1 the Oculus RIFT is the only system I felt was good enough to be worth the money. I sold everything else (inc Vive) and I see only a few small shortcomings of Vive addressed partially by Vive pro.

This isn’t ‘whining’ this is being real, these things aren’t cheap, and ‘true’ GEN 2 VR is around the corner (inc from Oculus who seem to be the only ones who ‘get’ that VR needs to be balanced not just a specs race).

The resolution increase isn’t particularly exciting given that it has the same FOV. The ergonomics are STILL trash. The design is STILL awful. The controllers STILL posess those awful trackpads (vs the stunning mini analog sticks on rift that give you real physical feedback as you push on them in things like google earth VR).

Specifically you can pick up the rift, put it on your head with ONE hand (like a cap) and it slips on + remembers exactly how it was set. It weighs barely anything, the phones are great, they don’t even need to be flipped up to fit it on. Oculus home launches in seconds, new DASH/Home 2 loads up and blows Steam VR away. Then you have the controls, Oculus touch that actually feel good in the hand, great to interact with VR with, and that much sharper (than original Vive) clarity in the middle of the screen thanks to pixel packing AND a massive sweetspot that lets you ‘breathe’.

The poor sweetspot on vive will still be there if it’s the exact same lenses/optics! And it’s really bad. Looking up/down the HMD shifts and the screen blurs. The fresnel rings on vive always felt worse to me than the ‘soft god rays’ within the scene on Rift, vive actively pulls you out of the virtual world when those rays kick in. Not so in rift (though I’d rather neither have any as it’s the #1 issue at the moment killing immersion).

So.. what we have here is a token gesture, still trying to catch up with a professional product (like Rift) and still looking janky and unfinished. HTC just don’t have it in them. Furthermore they’ve proven how inept they are at customer service, spare parts costing a fortune and often breaking through no fault of your own etc.

I’m sorry but it would take another 5x increase in ergonomics, specs, controls and all round awesomeness to get me to be interested in Vive again. While rift is still the same old res, it’s a stunning bit of kit, feels worth every penny (and more) quality through and through, from controls to lenses to materials. A joy to spend hours in VR in rift but a pain in vive for more than 30 minutes as it’s a hot, stuffy, weighty, shifty place to be in Vive.. very scuba diver vs rift’s more natural feel (note I do not wear glasses and if other’s do that’s their problem).

This ‘pro’ unit is clearly going to launch at higher than vive prices, and vive is already NOT worth its price (next to rift which is cheaper but far better for actually usable/enjoyable VR). So while this is all HTC can muster up, I’d still advise anyone who CAN NOT wait for GEN 2 VR to go for the cheaper but HIGHER QUALITY Rift. Do not let the specs on Pro fool you, nor the shiny advert, it’ll be Vive all over again, no finesse, dev kit feel through and through.

You’ve been warned.

theonlyrealconan

I have the Vive and tried the Rift many times. They are very similar. Trying to preach one or the other is moot.

I experienced pretty much the same. I don’t own a Vive but stayed at a friends for a few days and we had a marathon Vive session. It felt a step backwards from the Rift + Touch to me personally (I wear glasses too btw). I spoke to him the other day and asked how he is getting on with it and his response was “It only comes out for parties”. Once the thrill wears off you start to notice the downsides I guess.

dk

WHINING :P

Doctor Bambi

If we’re talking overall best balanced systems, Rift and Odyssey are really the front runners. Given what’s likely around the corner for SteamVR, I really couldn’t recommend a standard Vive to anyone at this point.

I have Vive and Rift and while I would agree with most this the Roomscale and ease of setup for sensors is much better on the Vive. Also while I find the Rift to initially be comfortable the right eye area heats up to a noticeable degree after 30 minutes and forces me out of Rift. The DAS on the Vive helped a ton as far as comfort goes, but it for sure feels heavier and not as natural. I want Vive 2.0 tracking Wireless and Rift minus the heat generation. Though I backed pimax so I’ll see how that compares when it comes in in a few months. Vive pro though…nah not impressed. Just give me a Rift pro with Vive tracking.

Cons: no FOV increase and lenses (I have the vive, the lenses are very poor/distracting).

Still not sure between this and the Pimax. Can’t wait for it to come out and see real reviews.

polysix

I had vive, you shouldn’t be biased against the rift (we all were back in 2016 after FB!) but I tell you it’s so much better than my vive ever was. I spend hours in in, great controls, amazing ergonomics, much sharper screen even at same res (better lenses and pixel packed centre), far higher sweet spot.

I wouldn’t touch Pimax, clearly another maker who just wants to tout specs but fails to understand ‘balanced’ systems. Oculus rift is the ONLY worthy card in the gen 1 game, and I’ve had dk2, vive, psvr and rift. If you’ve got vive however I’d wait for real gen 2, forget pimax and vive “pro” (smh), if you dont want to grab a rift and enjoy the quality then wait for real gen 2!

Bryan Ischo

Dude, VR shilling is so 2016. Get over it.

brubble

yeah! he’s got some nerve having an oo

Hans Wurst

Pimax and LCD is screen is a simple no-go!!

Civic

Almost 1 year later the Vive Pro will release with a resolution matching the Samsung Odyssey for a lot more money. LOL

polysix

And both have shit controls (compared to the rift)

Hans Wurst

The Odyssey is crap except for the display though.

kontis

They buy screens from Samsung, so how can they beat Samsung’s own product? That’s impossible.

benz145

A year later? HTC says the Vive Pro will initially launch in Q1, at most that’s ~5 months from when the Odyssey launched.

Vrspecs

Ben with all respect when are you going to start reporting seriously on the Pimax 8k. Thats the only true gen2 device on offer

I’ll upgrade if the price is reasonable. Maybe $400-$500 for the headset alone?

wheeler

You state they’re using the same lenses as the Vive but the gamecrate impressions state that they’re using dramatically improved lenses. E.g. gamecrate says that almost the entire view is clear / the sweet spot is massive and lightshafts are significantly reduced. Can you confirm this?

Beautiful analysis, as always, thank you! Price will decide everything… I guess the price of this one will be pretty high… and the name “Pro” says it all

David Herrington

While I love upgraded hardware, I feel like this is just a money grab. I supported HTC in the past but I think they should have refused a 1.5 release and just released a 2.0 version later in the year or maybe even early next year with more communication and teases to keep us going (like “check out our new FOV” or “Built in wireless coming soon”).
The fact that Vive 1.0 never went on sale over the holidays makes me believe that HTC thinks they can sell this HMD for a premium price. In reality they will be directly competing with Samsung Odyssey which is already cheaper than Vive 1.0 (even more so during holiday sales). I’m guessing HTC will lose a lot of money when most people won’t buy a ver 1.5 for premium cost, and this insures a 2.0 version will be another 1.5 years from now as well.

Mei Ling

They are releasing something now to appease the more “hardcore” consumers whilst simultaneously working on the next iteration (version 2 so to speak). It’s sort of a positive since it generates a bit of publicity around HTC and the Vive product range while at the same time being the only most advanced PC based HMD out there for now, or even for the entirety of 2018.

David Herrington

Yes, but with almost all the same specs as Samsung Odyssey, is this worth twice the cost to most people?

Mei Ling

How do you know this is “twice the cost”? Do you have insider knowledge? If so, please share.

Which businesses can justify buying a Vive Business Edition? When I think “Business Edition”, I’m thinking the product is made for CPAs, small businesses, small medical practices, store owners, etc.

A tax accountant does not need a Vive Business Edition. What business does?

David Herrington

I don’t know if any business really “needs” a Vive as they are more of a helpful tool at this point than a necessity. But home design, training tutorials, and movie set design are just a few that would be great use cases.

I think these are mostly aimed at things like VR arcades but there are some interesting stories around of companies exploring VR for things like sales of holidays and cars, medical training etc etc.. Still fairly early days but there some interesting stuff out there.

Those are real cool ideas. Come to think of it, I’ve seen articles where realtors or builders use VR to sell apartments/condos before they even break ground. Thanks!

Laurence Nairne

We (a marketing and communcations agency) use this for the likes of technical training, where the standard format is both costly and/or dangerous.

Automotive are really big on VR, not just for the sales side, but introducing staff to, otherwise difficult to explore, features and technology.

Darshan

If they mark it for Enterprise, Those who wish to sell multi million product by Demo on VIVE will buy this in a blink, apart from such small group. (Architechs, Labs R&D medicines, Medical Collages, Large machine Industry sims) . These days many other industires like Tourism & Expensive Teaching institutes started cosidering VR.

Very informative response, thanks! Who creates the content to view on VR, aside from game devs? Is this 360 video and folks programming experiences on Unity?

Darshan

Its mix of multi talent , you need to have good knowldge of 3D modeling, some understanding of UI & UX little bit understandning of animation & Coding. group of people with each talent can also build bigger such project.

IMO, 360 Video is last form of VR i wish to enjoy ;-) its for kids with non gyro smart phone and 10$ google cardboard.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that Odyssey will be more comfortable or have better tracking than Vive Pro. What I’m saying is, will Vive Pro be worth TWICE what the Odyssey costs if they both have the same resolution (the main selling point of the Pro)?

Darshan

No its not main selling point of the pro when compared to Oddyssey. its only case when you compare with OLD VIVE, in case of Odyssey you must compare the whole package. its unjust to compare apples with oranges

David Herrington

Both HMD’s work with Steam library. Both have room scale tracking. Both come with 6 DOF controllers. Both have integrated audio. Both have 2880×1600 resolution.
I’m afraid that most first time VR buyers will not be able to justify spending twice as much for something with same specs.

Darshan

You are comparing on paper things, the real use case is vastly diffrent, play SUPERHOT on both systems then share your REAL FINDINGS with tracking.. I am sure you won’t say both are same.

inside out tracking has many issues. Leave Superhot, just play RAWDATA experince is totally different.

dogtato

Exactly. “They both have roomscale tracking” does not mean they are equal in terms of tracking

Darshan

“I’m afraid that most first time VR buyers will not be able to justify spending twice as much for something with same specs”

That’s why one must not buy on spacs, for VR always go demo first.

David Herrington

Playing a demo in store would be best for first time buyers but I only have 1 store that might be able to demo them and a lot of people don’t have any demo’s available. Last time I checked Best Buy stores around me stopped all VR demos. So they would have to base their decision on the opinions of others (risky) or paper specs (fairly safe).

Secondly, most first time VR buyers today are likely very limited with money as if they had ample money they would have purchased a Vive or Rift almost 2 years ago. This means that most first time VR buyers are looking for the best performance per cost. Which would probably lead them to Odyssey.

Lastly, Odyssey, came out November 6 2017 with 2880×1600 resolution. The deluxe audio strap has been out since June 6. If people with money were that interested in upgrading their Vives for comfort, or buying a higher resolution HMD they would have already purchased them. This half step of the Vive isn’t going to be worth it for most people since you still have to buy wireless separately.

Caven

The Vive Pro probably won’t be worth twice the cost of the Odyssey, but I also don’t expect the Vive Pro to cost twice as much as the Odyssey. Even with new controllers and base stations, there just isn’t enough added technology in the Vive Pro to justify a doubling of the price.

David Herrington

Lowest cost of Vive 1.0 is currently 600 USD. I assume that when standalone Vive Pro comes out, it will not be cheaper than Vive 1.0 even without controllers and base stations. HTC seems to be marketing the Pro as a “premium device” so this makes sense. Also the Vive Pro essentially includes the Deluxe Audio Strap which in itself HTC says is worth $100. So I’m tentatively guessing that Vive Pro HMD will be about 600 USD by itself.

Lowest cost of Odyssey during holiday sales was 450 USD. Which includes controllers. This means the effective cost of the Odyssey HMD without controllers is around 300 USD.
$300 x 2 = $600

Caven

Comparing the headsets without any of their accessories, the Odyssey and Vive Pro are almost identical. Same resolution OLED screens. Hard strap. Integrated audio. Two cameras. About the only things the Vive Pro has that the Odyssey doesn’t are the integrated Lighthouse sensors and a few buttons for controlling audio. I don’t think those two features are anywhere near enough to justify charging $300 more for the Vive Pro. If HTC tries to charge more for just a headset than Samsung is charging for an entire VR package that includes an almost identical headset, that’s probably not going to work out well for HTC. The only way I could see them justifying a $600 price tag is if it’s meant only as an business device that comes with enterprise-grade support, like the Vive Business Edition, and at that point it’s no longer targeted at consumers.

David Herrington

Here’s to hoping you are correct!

Caven

I certainly hope so too, because it’s the difference between me upgrading or holding out for something else. I refuse to pay more for the Vive Pro than I would fir the Odyssey. I like the idea of the Vive Pro–but not as a $600 device.

Hans Wurst

Samsung Odyssey has already problems competing with the base Vive in anything but resolution.

David Herrington

But will the Vive Pro be worth TWICE what Odyssey costs for the same resolution (the main selling point of the Vive Pro)?

ojhilt

Sounding like a nice mid-cycle refresh, but like most people are saying it will all be price dependent, I’d snap this up in a second if it was <£300 for the HMD, between that and £500 I'm more inclined to wait for a reasonably priced wireless accessory and wait till gen 2. The current Vive is more than sufficient for todays use cases and I'm more concerned my 1070 wouldn't be up to the task, perhaps true gen 2 had better wait for the 11xx cards to come along!

Darshan

HTC just offer Screen replacement and Ask the price .. to all current vive owners… Full stop.

Rex Thorne

Bad plan. HTC can’t manage to ship back the same headset when sent in for repairs. What makes you think they could manage it with a screen replacement program?

jarjarplinks

I do like the offer of the lower cost upgrade path for us current Vive owners. Though on the downside makes it virtually impossible to sell the old HMD on as a partial package. Could be clever thinking from HTC who also realise the same?

Hans Wurst

There is some misinformation in this article. Pentile matrix display like on the Rift, Vive, Vive Pro etc. only have 2!! sub pixels per pixel. The only headset with a true RGB display with 3 sub-pixels is the PSVR which in itself greatly reduces the screen door effect!

kontis

All LCD-based headsets are also RGB.

benz145

I was simplifying the explanation for the sake of the article — yes PenTile has a unique sub-pixel layout, however it still uses RGB pixels to mix white, it just doesn’t arrange them in the usual side-by-side way.

Ellie 187

Then why does the PSVR looks dog sh*t compared to the PC VR headsets ?

Hans Wurst

It doesn’t…it actually has better lenses with less refractions. less screen door effect and is much more comfortable. The only reason SOME stuff is looking worse is the low power of the base PS4.

Blackfire1

There are ways of “faking” FOV that doesnt effect propreoception nor refresh rate. However, it’s expensive as hell and doesnt work for all users. Would I have liked an HTC vive 2.0 with the primax specs? Of course. But then you instantly alienate a huge amount of user base because of GPU constraints. They have already mentioned they will offer a headset only upgrade to current Vive owners who bought theirs last year. Cool. It’s not a full 2.0. But most people nor I cam afford 2.0 amd the upgrade costs attached.

David Herrington

When I buy a new car, I sell the old one so I can recoup some of the costs. If you buy a the Vive Pro HMD to upgrade your setup, you can’t sell your old Vive HMD because people want the controllers, base stations, breakout box, and cables as well. That means you can’t recoup any of the cost of the original system and it increases the total upgrade cost.

Good question. There’s not a lot of available data to work with. One sensible thing might be to price the Vive Pro at the original $800 of the Vive, and leave the Vive at $600. I think if HTC had the leeway to do it, their best bet would be to price the original Vive at $400 to match the Rift, and the Vive Pro at $600 or $700, I just don’t know if that’s feasible for their bottom line.

Lucidfeuer

As always there are the hypocritical apologist who would buy the spit of HTC thrown in their face if they’re told to, and there are people expressing rational resentment for a mediocre product.

Given the build, I’d say it won’t be that expensive, probably in the vicinity of the original Vive at release. But we all had the same throwing-up reaction at the unveil of the design and ergonomics.

This is a very badly designed product which will sell less that the first one.

benz145

It’s ugly, but it’s also better than the original. Wait until you have a chance to try it, I think the vast majority of people won’t want to go back.

As for how it sells, you could be right. It depends in pricing, and a lot of other factors. The reality of what VR is and can do today also has set in now compared to selling headsets into a market which really didn’t know much about what to expect (I’m talking about normal consumers, not us crazy VRphiles), so the Vive Pro has to battle that as well.

Lucidfeuer

I know that as far as every people invested in VR I’ve discussed with, the design and ergonomic is a big no, because it’s actually a step backward. I understand your point, but I disagree: in VR like any other market there’s absolutely no magic, a great product with a minimum of advertisement can’t do anything to prevent selling a lot (usual barriers and challenges besides), while a crap product with even the best pushed coverage won’t be able to do anything to prevent low sales.

And it’s not so much about specs or functionality as most people seem to imply: this is why GearVR sold the most and in a completely different format PSVR, for me. If it was the Go or the new Lenovo I might be skeptical at worse, but in this case…this doesn’t make any sense from a basic product conception and marketing standpoint.

Griffin

its looks good but not enough real upgrade for me I own the Vive + DAS and the Samsung Odyssey, and i have been happy enough with that, basically im waiting for my Pimax or something bigger than this.

but im interested how you would compare the Vive Pro to the Odyssey as the screen door should still be very present in both, from my experence

benz145

I’m waiting to get them side by side. Vive Pro made a better impression on me than Odyssey so far, but things like fit, sweet spot, and comfort play into that, not to mention controller tracking.

Kevin Nash’s broken quad

Based on this, just gonna get the DAS for my vive and wait it out for another generation, simply not enough of a jump at this point.

jacobpederson

First I’ve heard the term Mura, I always called it “poor grey uniformity.”

So the made the deluxe audio strap a standard…. And put in Samsung Odessy displays…
This thing might work for arcade but consumer sales are likely gonna bomb cause though only buying them will be hardcore enthusiasts

Lou

yea now it have the best of both worlds, the best tracking and the best screens

Ellie 187

Yes. as long as the upgrade path is reasonable, it will do fine…. It would serve them best to lower the current vive down to the price of the Rift, and sell the entire kit with a pro headset at the $600 price point… but its HTC, they probably won’t

Chris7

All this . 5 Gen shit is getting old for me.

Andrew Jakobs

It’s not the same resolution..

MW

Yes it is. Still 2×1. Cosmetic change. Really not worth my money.

Andrew Jakobs

uhhh.. RTFA:
“First and foremost is the headset’s improved display, which offers 78% more pixels with a 2,880 × 1,600 resolution (1,440 × 1,600 per display). This makes a big difference in clarity of the VR world. With the original Vive’s 2,160 × 1,200 resolution it’s relatively easy to see sub-pixels (the little red, green, and blue dots that mix together to make white, and every other color you see). Looking through the lenses of the Vive Pro, not only have the sub-pixels disappeared, it’s challenging to even make out whole pixels.”

MW

What you trying to prove, man? VR is some kind of religion to you? This is just a commercial product, created to make money. I will not buy it – that’s my right. 2,8/1,6 per eye, after 2 years of improvement is laughable low for me. My phone has better res. And it is definitely too low for HMD for 600+ USD. Period.

Andrew Jakobs

WTF are you talking about, you’re the one saying it’s got the same resolution as the current one, I’m told you it’s not, then you claim it has, and I show you it’s not. Then you go on a rant of me trying to prove something..
Ofcourse it’s you’re right not to buy, so be it, but don’t go blabbing incorrect information that it’s only cosmetics that has changed..
And yes, you might have a phone with a better res, but the display in your phone isn’t suitable for good VR (as in not low latency for instance).
And it’s no use to put a headset on the CONSUMER market right now if there is no normal CONSUMER GPU to power it, and by the time there is, displays and technology has advanced again to make the ‘current’ headset obsolete anyway.
I AM objective, it’s YOU who isn’t objective or realistic.
And the Pimax still hasn’t shipped, and the current price is only for the people who supported their kickstarter campaign, also the headset they already have on the market is inferior to the vive or the rift, even though it has a higher resolution..

Ellie 187

Hate to break it to you.. ALL COMPANIES want to make money money money… Facebook, Pixmax, Sony, Microsoft…. its all about the money money money.

MosBen

I think the better question than “Is this next-gen?” is “Does HTC consider this to be their next-gen?” If HTC is considering this an upgrade to the original Vive, they probably expect to put out a new 2.0 headset in the next year or so. If they consider it a new generation, then it’s probably more like 2-3 years before the next generation of the Vive comes out. If it’s just a refresh of the Vive, then this makes sense to me, and if I had friends looking to get into VR today, I’d recommend that they go with the Pro. If HTC is considering this their next generation HMD, on the other hand, then I’d hold off for a year to see what Oculus is going to put out. I’ve long felt that one of the most important improvements for the next generation of VR would be an expansion of the FOV. If Oculus announces their next HMD with a greatly expanded FOV, along with things like ergonomic improvements, then I feel like the Vive would be at a huge disadvantage.

Foreign Devil

I’m happy VIVE does these incremental hardware updates. .for those who don’t want to wait until 2019 for next gen Rift. Also keeps Oculus on their toes.

This Vive looks fantastic. Who is new in the VR world (taking into account the price) can make us a thought.

For those who already own a Visor or do not want to spend twice in the space of 1 year, can wait for new proposals .. Such as Primax, oculus, etc ..

Yosarin Blake

OMG WTF?! I just can’t believe it. What is going on over there at Vive? Have they even noticed the Pimax 8k revolution that is coming? Vive has gone to the trouble to produce the “Pro” but it has the SAME FOV as Vive 1, the SAME lenses, the SAME small sweet spot, that doesn’t even bump things up to the 4k of each eye of the Pimax!! And they wont even let you know when it will be released until later this year – when the Pimax 8k will be starting to be available more widely! Is Vive deliberately trying to stay behind of what is very soon to become the default standard for VR headsets – the huge FOV and sweet spot and resolution of the Pimax 8k???

I think they are just getting up to current spec to compete with MR devices. Now people who want the higher resolution of MR but with better tracking have an option.

Yosarin Blake

Good point. I just thought they would be moving faster on bigger upgrades. When the Pimax 8ks start arriving to backers in a fewmonths and are setting youtube on fire, I think people are going to start feeling pretty neglected by other headset companies.

I thought that too. The early impressions of the Pimax Booth are a little worrying though. Pimax forum thread, twitter etc.

Yosarin Blake

I agree there were some worrying first impressions. But what do you make of SweViver and Mixed Reality TV’s youtube reviews of later versions? They seemed so emphatic. They also got quotes from others too!

I’m just reading the latest impressions now. Looks like Pimax are floundering at the last mile if I am honest. Then again, they have a lot of cash to throw talent at the issues so who knows. It is still in a stage prior to a DK1 at this moment which is surprising as they predicted a Jan 2018 ship date not long ago.

Yosarin Blake

Ok good point. Being a non-business person, I have no idea of the economics behind these decisions. I just can’t believe that Pimax is going to leapfrog everyone and they know this is coming but they make no mention or any attempt re a similar FOV etc???

Mr Pink

Please HTC! Stop putting bulky shit on the back of the headstrap! It is really uncomfortable during simracing.

impurekind

Seriously, lots of great tweaks and additions here. This now probably the best all-round VR headset on the market.

Cat of Many Faces

For me, the knuckles controllers are what i’m really waiting for. i just hope they aren’t base station 2.0 required as i really don’t want to have to get a new setup just for them.

Yulius Halim

Gotta say the 3d camera is nice. I hate lifting my headset everytime something needs to be done in the real world but nothing too compelling to ditch my old vive for this, especially considering I only have a gtx 1070 laptop. No FOV increase and no foveated rendering available means not worth an upgrade.

Suitch

The price is going to be important for Valve’s survival in the VR hardware market. If it is over 1k then they won’t make it. I don’t thing businesses and commercial customers will keep their hardware market alive.

Ellie 187

this isn’t Valve’s product … its HTC’s

Icebeat

I will be very disappointed if it cost more than 600$ because Samsung Odyssey is similar and cost 500$, I know, it is not the same tracking system, that is why I give extra 100$.

Sion12

Not impressed with the modest resolution bump but whats important is the price point, If the PRO is sub $600 and original drop to sub $400 then it will be interesting, otherwise its hard to justify buying them over the $400 rift

Marco Dena

Is there any remote chance for the old Deluxe Audio Strap to be attached to the new headset? I couldn’t find any info so far.

benz145

That’s a good question. My guess is no, but let me see what HTC says.

Graham Parker

I hadn’t seen this mentioned anywhere so far, but the connections are USB C 3.0 and DP 1.2, according to vive.com. No more HDMI I take it, so I assume it’ll come with a new link box also.

Zerofool

@benz145:disqus Ben, can you share your thoughts on the size of the sweet spot of the Pro compared to the original Vive? Any improvements or is it still quite limited and things outside of it get blurry fast?

benz145

They are the same lenses so the sweet spot should be identical. There’s a chance that the new head mount will make it easier to keep your eyes in the sweet spot but an answer to that kind of question requires long term testing.

ianken

“Mura”

benz145

Interesting trivia : )

Jerald Doerr

A bit disaponted.. I was wishing for 2k per eye, crap even higher FOV… I’ll have to see it for myself.. Now the only mystery is the price… If its $300 more ahhh not sure I’m going to reinvest. I might just shelf it or sell it and come back 2 or 3 years from now. ={

theonlyrealconan

Lol, try $800. They just announced it. And that is just for the head unit.

brandon9271

Fresnel lenses need to GO. who cares about increased FOV or resolution or any other possible improvement when you still have to deal with those blasted god rays?!

duked

Larger sweet-spot and larger FOV is a must for a “next-gen” headsset.

Wade Gruber

What about the weight? Since it’s arguably the main factor in comfort, shouldn’t the reviewers have weighed the device or insisted on getting the weight?

ummm…

i wont be buying another until 2.0. ill be jealous and bitter until then.

Jason Mercieca

I got the vive (not the new pro) and happy with it. I want better tech yes but the vive pro or the next rift generation wont make it for me to depart from my current hmd, why, simply its not enough advances.
When the hmds offer something like 200 fov and at least 4k resolution that can run at 90fps at max graphic quality (not even the 1080ti will cope) then its time to update hardware, so say generation 3 maybe? Well till then i save my cash towards that well spend purchase, updating now for just a minor difference is not a good idea, in paper it states 73% more pixels, oh wow, it looks so much more, in real life i bet it’s not so much difference to the human eye..

theonlyrealconan

Shame. No increased fov and the lenses are really bad on my vive. I guess i will be waiting for something better (or maybe the pimax 8k, depending on if they improve enough on the released verson).

Sadly at $799 and no V2 controllers or lighthouses when it launches, makes the latter advantages meaningless. You are going to pay at least $1600-$1700 for a 10m x 10m capability and unknown if their wireless solution will have the range for this large of a space, which is also the case with the TPCast, which means you maybe backpacking it. One caveat is if you compare the 30’x30′ Optitrak system at $46,000, not including the framework to mount all the cameras, this is still a far better investment if you are planning to build a low-end VR cave. I for one will gladly plunk down $3000-$3500 for two HMDs, four controllers, four lighthouses and eight Trackers. HTC I hope you are reading this, and check your Developer cue for me :)