70 comments:

The poor kid looks like she's weighs 87 pounds.As the old saying goes:"She looks like she's coming through her collar".Five more pounds, and she just might.

Anyway...

Being friends with Manson is one thing, but making Manson your entire life, seems a bit extreme to me.I have to wonder how Manson's death will effect this young woman.I mean, let's face it... Manson isn't gonna live forever.Will she continue ATWA without Manson? Find someone else to follow? Or, will she do a complete turn-around, find a job, get married, and have kids?I suspect most of us will live long enough to see those questions answered.

Looking at that picture, I'm not so much concerned about Manson or Grey Wolf.Manson is Manson, and Grey Wolf is certainly old enough to choose how and where, he spends his time.

But, there's always something a bit un-nerving, viewing Star in these photos.This situation can't be healthy for a young woman.

If Manson was a genuine friend, and he had any decency at all, he would tell this young woman to invest her time elsewhere.He'd be happy to see his friend healthy, and well-adjusted.Manson can't possibly believe, that he's doing this young woman a favor.This situation, is Manson's final act of selfishness.

she looks boney and thin as ever and I cant attribute this to being a vegatatian-the original girls were all vegetarians and still had rosy smiling cheeks and although thin never looked haggard or starving

Well, I think it's nice that these three oddballs have at least got each other. And a cause to believe in. It's not particularly off the Richter scale compared to lots of things happening in this crazy world.

I guess if you decide to believe that Manson was railroaded and is genuine in his ATWA beliefs, then he'd be not such a bad counter-culture figure to latch onto. And at least he hasn't ordered his handful of devotees to go killing in the past 40 odd years...which he could have done. Nothing to lose and all that. Play the Christ card again.

Anyway. Happy Birthday to Charlie. His crimes were so long ago now. The dude knows how to do time, that's for sure.

i've read those rumors that Lynette no longer associates with CM too. However, I suspect that her probation might have stipulated no contact for at least some period of time from him as pre-1975 she was always trying to get in to see him and obviously quite influenced by him. I've read rumors/reports that CM would call Lynette's boyfriend and talk to him while she listened to the conversation and in this manner did not violate her probation.

yeah, Lauren, that is one of my main present day TLB curiousities -wether Squeaky's departure fromn the TLB scene has anything to do with Star becoming Manson's main girl the last few years.

And that is a great post as usual Cease. I would still love to see a show of hands for people who really think Charlie was railroaded. Can it be more than a couple of dozen? I mean there can be no question about his legal guilt in the Hinmann and Shea killings. And he did tie up the LaBiancas so by definition of law he participated in those murders. He's going to his grave denying ordering the Cielo murders, but how many folk are buying his version? Any reasonable person would have concluded a long time ago that Manson convicted himself. The concept of him being railroaded is just conspiracy nonsense - nothing but fodder for the blog world. Was the trial the "fairest" it could have been? Of course not, but Manson has only himself to blame for most of that.How can anyone not see that?

you know, Cease, when I watch a bunch of Charlie interviews over on youtube I find myself daydreaming about his "innocence". The guy has charm and charisma for sure. I especially enjoy his interview with Charlie Rose. But I spent several years yearning for and working towards proving Lee Harvey's innocence. It's easy to get caught up in it. But I would always force myself once a week to get up before dawn and go sit on the back stairs and do some contemplating - early morn clarity and all that. I remember one thing that kept coming to me was that whatever else, both Lee Harvey and CHarlie qualified as Grade A assholes just on the basis of hitting women. A man hits a woman he is a asshole of the highest order in my book - like OJ too. It was easy to get caught up in wishing for Oswald's innocence because we all were so pissed at the govt by the late sixties. And it is somewhat easy to be wishful of Charlie's innocence. But I had to keep reminding myself that both those guys were assholes from the start, so buyer beware and all that in terms of supporting them.

hey, Is it just me or has Leary become very well spoken, insightfull and all around more interesting in the last couple years. Most likely he has always been such just like my father became wiser as I grew up. Anyway I have really become fond of Leary"s comments.

hi Katie! I agree Red Blue Brenda gypsy etc always looked happy healthy singing sewing they never looked starving or sad...maybe because they all had each other they did everything together which was probably part of the union of them all -to do everything together to have each other

Bob said:"hey, Is it just me or has Leary become very well spoken, insightfull and all around more interesting in the last couple years. Most likely he has always been such just like my father became wiser as I grew up. Anyway I have really become fond of Leary"s comments".

In 1968 Dr David Smith diagnosed Charlie as ambulatory schizophrenic which means the illness is better suited to nonconfinement or hospitalization because that tends to exascerbate their conditions. Locking them away makes them worse.

Lauren Webster said...IMO, Star lacks the charisma/enthusiasm Sandy and Squeaky have. The way she talks kinda urks me. Im sure you've seen this before but:

Poirot replies:

Star uses a common technique for rebuttal that most obsessive/compulsive personalities tend to employ in order to get their way across to someone who has figured them out. Squeaky and Sandra did this too: they change the subject by redirecting blame(focus/subject) onto a straw dog.

Meanwhile we have 9 brutally murdered innocent victims. They are the subject and Charlie is the ringleader behind the bloody demise of these 9 victims.

Leary7: "I mean there can be no question about his legal guilt in the Hinmann and Shea killings. And he did tie up the LaBiancas so by definition of law he participated in those murders. He's going to his grave denying ordering the Cielo murders, but how many folk are buying his version? Any reasonable person would have concluded a long time ago that Manson convicted himself. The concept of him being railroaded is just conspiracy nonsense - nothing but fodder for the blog world.

Hi Leary, I love reading your comments on TLB regardless of whether I agree or not. In regards to his guilt of accessory to those murders, which I agree is no doubt, however, even with those convictions wouldn't his time already be more than served.

And how the jury so easily bought the HS motive must be a reflection of how naive and gullible the generation must have been back then. ( I was only 3 so I don't have the recall of 69')

Also, while I also agree CM's courtroom behavior helped convict himself, imo, that Nixon headline always seemed grounds for a hung jury and the excuse given for why there wasnt a hung jury is weak for me.

But also what hurt CM was his defense team. They were about as inadequate as they could get for Manson. Aside from the glaring mistake of not even putting on a defense the defense attorneys missed numerous opportunities throughout Bugliosi's bs.

Now, I am not an attorney nor have I ever played one on TV, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express !

I know you addressed Leary directly, but I'd like to take a crack at this conversation.Out of necessity, I'm gonna break your post into segments. LOL!

In regards to Manson:"even with those convictions wouldn't his time already be more than served?"

That's really one of those "yes and no" questions... and I mean that literally.

If you consider the "gut opinion" of the average informed blogger... I'd say maybe yes... Manson has probably served his time.I mean... If one considers what Manson actually did (and maybe more importantly, what he didn't do)... you could dfinitely make a pretty good argument, that Manson has already served his time.That's the "yes part". LOL

From a legal standpoint however, I'd say decidedly no.From a legal standpoint, Manson doesn't have enough years left in his lifetme, to cover his convictions.

Manson was sentenced to nine counts of first degree murder... NINE.AND... one count of conspiracy.That's a heavy yoke.

At that time in California, if you were found guilty of conspiring to murder... you got first degree... just like you committed the crime yourself.Like I said... Manson got lambasted but good.

Let's round-off Manson's current prison stay to 45 years, for easy mathematics.Considering his 9 first-degree murder convictions... to date... he's only served 5 years per murder.Bugliosi got him... and he got him good.

So has Manson served his time?Yes and no.From the standpoint of "gut fairness" and public opinion... maybe yes.From a legal standpoint... no.Unfortunately for Manson... the "no" part, is what matters.

Of course Brian, this is all a re-hash for you... but, that's what blogging is about... going over the same stuff 1000 times. LOL!

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"that Nixon headline always seemed grounds for a hung jury and the excuse given for why there wasnt a hung jury is weak for me".

I agree.It seems to me, a declaration by the President of the United States (LOL) on the front page of a newspaper, is a very big deal.I can't believe that issue was brushed-over so quickly.Before the internet... newspapers were a very powerful force.

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"But also what hurt CM was his defense team. They were about as inadequate as they could get for Manson. Aside from the glaring mistake of not even putting on a defense the defense attorneys missed numerous opportunities throughout Bugliosi's bs".

I agree.The defense was non-existent.

I've tried to work through the whole defense debacle in my mind many times.

Here's a few things (obstacles) which may have (in-part) contributed to the horrible defense situation:

-Everyone except Manson, was on very thin ice legally.They had blood on their hands.Atkins spilled the beans, and Kasabian was going batshit on the witness stand.According to Paul Fitzgerald... the girls even made judicial confessions.Paul states that here, 2 minutes into the footage:http://www.lsb3.com/2012/10/chris-writes-just-quick-e-mail-to-thank.htmlI've never seen those judicial confessions on a transcript... but if it's true, that's a big obstacle for a lawyer to overcome. LOL!

-Also... I believe the girls were more than ready to take the fall for Manson... and it was incumbent upon their legal counsel to discourage that.That's another big headache for the defense.

-Then of course, you have the antics in the courtroom.That never helps.

-In my humble opinion, Kanarek was a horrible lawyer.Even Manson said (paraphrasing):"He's the worst lawyer I could have chosen".

None of these things (in and of themself) should destroy a defense... but collectively, they've crossed my mind.

I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth... but Dilligaf has expressed the opinion, that the head conspirator (ringleader), is actually more dangerous than his individual henchmen... and thus deserving of more punishment.

I must say... Dilligaf made quite a convincing argument for that mindset.

In a sense, he's right.Van Houten stabbed Rosemary... but, one could easily argue, that Manson ultimately accomplished the demise of many more people (than Leslie did).Manson actually wielded more weapons in the form of influence, and thus, had greater potential for committing crime (than Leslie).Consequently, Manson was arguably a more dangerous person (than Leslie).I think most folks would (in fact) release Leslie before Manson.That's speaks strongly to the accuracy of Dilligaf's assertion.

Dilligaf expressed this concept much better than I. LOL

Dilligaf?

My point here, is that there's a million ways to look at culpability and punishment.If we polled 100 people, we'd get 30 different answers.It's probably best to stick to the actual legal convictions handed down by the court, when deciding release dates and worthiness.. LOL!

MrPoirot, Hi ! I agree with you on how horrified the jurors must have been. I can only imagine their look when they saw this guy walk out the very first day with his fresh-cut forehead and the girls, which is where I agree with Lynyrd in that Manson certainly helped cement himself along with the law itself.

The jurors also had to look at those murder scene pics, which I would think were more than what we've seen.

I appreciate your clarification in referring Bugliosi's opening statment mentioning multiple motives which ironically might be more true than the mainline of Helter Skelter bs he wove together.

You know, I had a absolutely brilliant post (at least in my mind) and for some reason it did on post, so I will try again.

If the Wooly Hophead had been tried, and convicted as an accessory, either before, or after the fact, he certainly would have been released a long time ago. That is why it was so crucial to tie the Wooly Hophead in as a co-conspirator, which as we saw, was the correct strategy. The strands of a conspiratorial rope necessary to tie him up were there, and both the jury, and the court believed it.

I do not beleive that the jury was gullible as much as it was frightened. The jury, and society, did not want to believe that such crimes could occur in Whitebread America, that these had to be such an aberation, and as such, the theory of HS allowed them to believe that, leaving America to still feel safe.

Remember, Nixon did not come out and proclaim guilt. During a press conference, in Denver I believe, in aswering a question form the press corps, he referrenced the TLB trials to make a point, and the press ran with it. Not much different than how the press operates today. If, during voir dire of the jury regarding this, evidence arose showing that such an act created undue bias or predjudiced angainst the defendants, the court would have had to call for a mistrial. The fact that the court did not, and it was not used later as an appellate issue, shows it was the right call.

I still believe that the Wooly Hophead was the far more dangerous person within this act, for you can find many people to be tools, but without the idea or the concept, the act does not occur. If it weren't these co-defendants, there certainly would have been others.

As Lynyrd said, the girls' defense attorneys were afraid that the girls would take the stand and take all the credit for the murders to get Manson off. But I don't know why Manson's attorney didn't put on a defense.

Do they all have to agree about that? I don't know.

Dill?

I'm not sure who would have been called as a defense witness, other than the "usual suspects". Any defense witness who showed up with a bald head and an "x" on her head would not have been very believable anyway.

thanks bobby and seattle for kind comments. I enjoy your guys insights mucho as well. Hey, Seattlejohnny, I really enjoyed the 'Dillenger Slept Here" book you turned me on to about the St Paul underworld. Fascinating stuff. Turns out bank robber Homer Van Meter was gunned down in the alley across from my house. Some really interesting characters from those days - some guys are into cheerleaders...me, I am a sucker for a gun moll. St Paul had some of the more interesting ones.

I am trying to think which if any of the Family females would have made a good 40's gun moll. Gypsy probably. Maybe Cappy.

Once again, thanks for your input.We're all very fortunate to have your participation and friendship, here at LSB3.COM.

I must admit however... that I'm having a bit of a hard time, adjusting to your new avatar.Abe Vigoda had something of a regal "air" to him... which just seemed more appropriate.That's probably because, I remember Abe Vigoda best as a police detective."Mr. Fish"!

The book Dillinger Slept here looks interesting- thanks for the tip. I had friends who lived in the upstairs of a house that Dillenger supposedly lived in...one night during a very lively libation party (kegger)...they tore up the floorboards convinced Dillinger hid a gun there. Needless to say it was a super fun party but they got evicted. I am ordering the book now.

Brian Davis: any shot at getting more shows up on your podcast page? I have never been able to get my act together enough to listen to your show live. Too much football and other stuff gets in the way....but I do enjoy it so...

Starship, Hello ! Thank you for that nice comment and I'll be glad to update that podcast page. I'll see if I can get something updated by the first of the week.

And if you ever do get the chance to join us live we'd certainly welcome you with open arms as we do all ! I know you would truly add to and hopefully enjoy the live discussion room during the broadcast and I think you'd recognize quite a few.

In the meantime, I sincerely enjoy and look forward to reading your comments/posts here on the LSB3 !

StarshipYou gotta understand, football Sunday for Brian is a foreign concept as he is stuck with the Washington Redskins. Mention the name Clint Longley around Thanksgiving Season and he begins to shake and shiver.LMAO

Hey Mr. Dill...I went to college and worked on the student newspaper there with Berke Breathed, the creator of Bloom County. He had a great strip called Academia Waltz that ran in our paper. He was really an aloof and unapproachable character, a bit of an elitist snob in my opinion. Is he still "off the grid"? Last I heard he was hermiting in Idaho.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True