While searching for something else, I found this article. I find this article interesting even if I donít understand all of it. http://wpage.unina.it/giamauri/Materiale_vario/Coppola_pizza.pdf I can see from this article there can be so much difference in the use of different starters, ferment times and how the doughs Rheological properties of leavened doughs all come into play. Another thing I find interesting about this pdf. article is the leavening time can be the utmost importance while using sourdough fermentation in artisan pizza making.

The pizza was made today with the Ischia starter/mixture. Even with using a higher percentage of the mixture/starter that was left out at room temperature for 5 days, this pizza didnít taste much different than the other pizzas I made with the Ischia starter. There wasnít any sour taste in the crust. The pizza also looked very similar to my other pies.

And thanks again for the "fragile" package...I can't help but to think of 'A Christmas Story' every-time that line pops to mind

StrayBullet,

Thanks for saying you love the look of the pie with the Ischia starter. This pie was good, with a complex flavor in the crust. I still canít figure out when using a lower amount of starter and then a higher amount of mixture/starter in this same dough, how the crust still tastes about the same.

This is the worksheet for the pizza that was baked yesterday, with the Ischia starter/mixture.

After tasting this pizza and seeing the results of this bake, I donít think there is any merit in trying a sponge or another type of mixture in the Ischia starter with this same formula. I have used a poolish in this formula different times and now have tried a thicker starter/mixture in this same formula. This last attempt was even fermented differently and from start to finish. This dough was made in three days instead of four days. The dough was bulk fermented for 5 hours, then balled and left at room temperature 3 hours and then cold fermented for three days. I couldnít taste any significant difference in the crust and the pie looked almost the same. I would have thought by using this Ischia starter/mixture that had set out at room temperature for so long, there would have been a different taste in the crust, but there wasnít. The crumb of this pie was even almost the same.

I think I have tried just about every type of preferment for pizza dough and if I were forced to pick just one for cold fermentation applications such as you have been experimenting with, I think I would pick a poolish. It works the fastest (because of its higher hydration than other preferments) and it is easier to spot the break point. The poolish also produces good amounts of acid without overly impacting the extensibility of the dough. If I were to make an entirely room-temperature fermented dough, then it is quite likely that I would go with a stiffer starter/preferment along the lines discussed by Marco and other members.

As you become more proficient in the use of natural starters/preferments and feel that you understand the basic principles of their use, you might consider other forms and protocols. It is hard to know which ones to pick and how to devise an appropriate fermentation protocol because they would have to be usable within the constraints imposed by the rules you have to follow at market. Also, I think that there would have to be a significant advantage in using them over what you have been using most recently. Unfortunately, you will always be having to contend with temperature variations over the course of the year and devising methods to allow you to make functioning dough balls despite those variations.

Where do you think you will go next?

I plan to go back to the posts in this thread since you have been posting pH values to see if anything jumps out at me in the way of patterns that might be helpful to detect and use pro-actively in making your naturally leavened Lehmann doughs. If I see anything, I will let you know.

Since I have tried some different protocols and forms of using the Ischia starter in my formulas and saw that the pizza really didnít improve on taste or appearance, I think there would have to be a significant advantage to using one form or another, even if I didnít have the time and temperature restraints I have at market.

I know I need more experience with natural starters/preferments and also need to understand the basic principles of their use.

Honestly, I donít know where I am going next. Although using the Ischia starter poolish and the other forms I used did take the pizza a step above the preferment Lehmann dough, I donít know if the added taste of the crust is enough to try and make this kind of pizza at market. The taste is better to me, but I am not sure if customers would be able to tell the difference.

I did go back to the earlier posts to examine the pH values more closely. The main post that I studied was Reply 258 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113762.html#msg113762. The worksheet in that post shows that your pH values were pretty much consistent and within the typical range even though the fermentation protocols were not identical. What I found interesting is that your pH readings had starting and final values that seemed to conform to the lower graph under the section "Acidification" at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Fermentation%20Control. In that case, which is based on Prof. Calvel's work, the test dough was commercially leavened (2% fresh yeast) and allowed to ferment at a temperature of 29.5 degrees C (85.1 degrees F) for 24 hours. The starting pH was 5.70 and the final pH was 4.70. Of course, you used a three-stage fermentation protocol so your results will not be directly comparable but it at least looks like your pH values were in the ballpark.

Have you given any thought to making a five dough ball batch to see if it will fit within the timeframe and constraints of your market situation? Such a test might tell you if it is worth pursuing a naturally leavened dough for market purposes should you decide at some future point to revisit the matter.

Thank you for posting all of the pH values. I think we at least added to our knowledge on the role that pH plays in naturally leavened doughs. So, if someone stops me on the street and asks me to tell them what a typical range of pH values is for a naturally leavened dough, I will be able to tell them in a New York second .

I did go back to the earlier posts to examine the pH values more closely. The main post that I studied was Reply 258 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113762.html#msg113762. The worksheet in that post shows that your pH values were pretty much consistent and within the typical range even though the fermentation protocols were not identical. What I found interesting is that your pH readings had starting and final values that seemed to conform to the lower graph under the section "Acidification" at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Fermentation%20Control. In that case, which is based on Prof. Calvel's work, the test dough was commercially leavened (2% fresh yeast) and allowed to ferment at a temperature of 29.5 degrees C (85.1 degrees F) for 24 hours. The starting pH was 5.70 and the final pH was 4.70. Of course, you used a three-stage fermentation protocol so your results will not be directly comparable but it at least looks like your pH values were in the ballpark.

Have you given any thought to making a five dough ball batch to see if it will fit within the timeframe and constraints of your market situation? Such a test might tell you if it is worth pursuing a naturally leavened dough for market purposes should you decide at some future point to revisit the matter.

Thank you for posting all of the pH values. I think we at least added to our knowledge on the role that pH plays in naturally leavened doughs. So, if someone stops me on the street and asks me to tell them what a typical range of pH values is for a naturally leavened dough, I will be able to tell them in a New York second .

Peter

Peter,

Good to see that when you examined the pH values more closely in the main post at Reply 258 that I was in the ballpark for Professor Calvelís work on commercially leavened dough with fresh yeast for 24 hours. At least this experiment has given me some knowledge about the 3 part fermentation process and seeing I could succeed with it. The oddest pH values were from when I let the biga/mixture starter, that I had left sit out at room temperature for a few days, then made the dough with that mixture/starter. I donít know about those numbers and then the rising pH, but think it was from the mixture being left out for so long and adding the flour and somehow the numbers came up, from the flouring feeding the mixture/starter in the dough. I may not be correct on this, but this is just my thinking. I used only 5% of the starter in that mixture dough. When I then made this latest dough with the mixture/starter, I think the mixture/starter was starting to play out, from it sitting so long at room temperature. I didnít feed the starter/mixture after Tuesday.

I have been thinking about trying a 5 dough ball batch at market, to see if it would fit into the timeframe and temperature constraints at market. As you know I am always searching for something different to try in a dough to see what tastes would be in the crust. I think my next experiment before I go about a 5 dough ball batch will be to try Kefir in a dough to see what will happen with that. I am going to get a live Kefir culture next week and am looking forward to playing around with it. I have looked on the web about Kefir cultures and making sourdough bread with them. I have been looking about making pizzas with a Kefir culture. I havenít seen too many people that have experimented with using a Kefir culture in a pizza dough, but I am willing to give that a go, to see what happens. I see that you can make bread with Kefir cultures. Kefir seems to be a natural way to leaven the dough, but I think you need much larger quantities to leaven a dough. I am also anxious to try out Kefir in drinks. I really like yogurt, so I might find a new drink I like, too. From what I have read you can then get Kefir crystals from making Kefir. By letting the Kefir sit out at room temperatures you can determine how sour you want the culture to become.

LOL Peter, I just wonder who is going to stop you on the street to ask you about the pH values for a naturally leavened dough.

I just had one other question to ask you. Since you know so much about making pizza with a preferments, did you ever hear of anyone using a Kefir culture to leaven a dough naturally? I had forget to ask you that in my last post. Since Kefir is made with milk, I could see the milk and the active culture could give pizza crust a sourdough taste if it would work.

I just had one other question to ask you. Since you know so much about making pizza with a preferments, did you ever hear of anyone using a Kefir culture to leaven a dough naturally? I had forget to ask you that in my last post. Since Kefir is made with milk, I could see the milk and the active culture could give pizza crust a sourdough taste if it would work.

Norma,

No, I have never heard of using Kefir in bread or pizza dough although I have seen Kefir in the supermarket from time to time and know that it is a cultured milk product like yogurt. I have seen the use of yogurt in naan so it would not come as a surprise to see that Kefir can also be used in dough products. However, Kefir is not a product that is considered to be a preferment. It might be closer to the wadave milk-based mixture that you experimented with a while back.

I look forward to your results. I assume that you will be using the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. If you can determine what a Kefir mixture constitutes when used in a dough, maybe I can help you with the formulation if you need help with the numbers.

No, I have never heard of using Kefir in bread or pizza dough although I have seen Kefir in the supermarket from time to time and know that it is a cultured milk product like yogurt. I have seen the use of yogurt in naan so it would not come as a surprise to see that Kefir can also be used in dough products. However, Kefir is not a product that is considered to be a preferment. It might be closer to the wadave milk-based mixture that you experimented with a while back.

I look forward to your results. I assume that you will be using the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. If you can determine what a Kefir mixture constitutes when used in a dough, maybe I can help you with the formulation if you need help with the numbers.

You can buy live cultures or grains of Kefir. Thatís interesting that you think Kefir isnít a preferment and think it might be closer to wasdaveís milk-based mixture that I experimented with.

I will be using the Lehmann dough NY style dough formulation. I think by reading different things on the web about Kefir, you need to add about 1 cup of Kefir to a batch of bread or maybe even pizza. I am not sure of that because there isnít a lot about using the live culture after it is bubbling and active. I might be asking for your help in determining how to figure out a formulation for the Lehmann dough with Kefir. I will start a new thread after I get the live culture.