This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board. This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THETruth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

Hmm this is a good topic.

There have been some interesting posts recently and almost shedding a new light on all of this. As UR cannot be defined as a doctrine/creed etc. it is therefor a "cult", well so say all the traditionalists.

Point is, I believe many cannot stomach the thought of ET but do not know where to seek answers or are too lazy to get into the word and seek truth for themselves.

My personal opinion is that many church goers are pew warmers and somehow have belief in regular church attendance = preserving salvation. So sad to see many fall into the trap of the good seed sown on rocky soil.

Luckily my conversion took place essentially outside of church influence and my early bible studies, my teacher was the Holy Spirit, strangely enough, HE never once taught me about hell even when I asked Him questions about it. In fact His answer to me was, "Now you let me worry about that, you just study." It all turned pear-shaped when I joined a charismatic church and got exposed to "un-truths", it was not their fault but mine.

Having done the circuit of many Pentecostals, I soon came to the realisation something was wrong, all they had was the same reformed traditions mixed with tongues and a happy clappie approach to worship. It is the mixing of new wine in old wine-skins. God makes a move with an outpouring and instead of letting God have His way, man too soon legalize it and then it dies. Oh the patience of God with us disobedient folk.

Like in your other thread, the questions nag of the falling away, the great apostasy etc.

Once the veil is in place, the unveiling takes a long time unless one has a scales dropping from eyes experience, most have wrestled with this and many still wrestle.

So much nicer not having to defend the dualist nature of our Father as many have been taught.

I have always made it a habit of returning to the gospels to see what Jesus had to say when I get confused. The problem is many accept the preacher's teaching as he is the anointed and one may not speak against the anointed one. Hmm somehow that is also not just applicable to Pastors, the word is clear about teachers and what happens when they err and lead others from the truth. Of the one thing I give my ex-pastor credit for, he never misquoted that scripture and was open to criticism, there again, he never spoke on hell at all.

I would say those that embrace UR are not looking for an easy gospel, rather a sensible one. Once we realize how much rubbish we have believed in in the past, we have no choice but to examine the word for ourselves and research deeper into the word, the original Hebrew and Greek and it becomes a journey of discovery. Most start the journey in traditional circles but when they subscribe to a bible study curriculum, the curriculum inevitably becomes their belief system, a few certificates later nicely framed et al. salvation is secured and hell well and truly entrenched in their minds.

I always wondered why we lose that first love experience, God never leaves us nor forsakes us so how is it we lose it. We walk away from the experiential process God has in mind for each and everyone of us. With that peace flies out of the window and we soon find ourselves burdened with our religion

This dovetails with other discussions as many who embrace UR are so overcome with the goodness of God to save all that they no longer believe that there will be a separation between the sheep and the sheep.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

It would not be a very sensible Kingdom if everyone in the Kingdom are kings and priests as many churches teach. Those who Overcome after being saved will be both called and chosen to be kings and priests unto our God. The rest will be saved and part of this Kingdom, but will not share the priesthood or the throne.

UR is one of those "things" which the Lord has concealed in the Word and those who are in the running to be part of this priesthood and government structure in the age to come must search Him out until they find this nugget among others. How can a man bless all without partiality as a priest or judge righteously as a king if they will not dig until they Overcome a doctrine like Eternal Torment.

I see the fact that the truth of UR not being obvious to all as a part of the sifting process in preparation for differing roles in the age to come.

squint

Just as "The Law" aroused the sin indwelling the flesh of Israel unto judgment, so does Grace and Truth, Living Word, arouse the resistance that abides in the flesh of our brothers of mankind. It is right that those called out by Gods Word would receive their first testing, that testing of the thieves. We know that Satan comes immediately to steal "The Word" from the hearts wherein it is sown. Immediately is pretty close eh? We also know that that same "god of this world" blinds the minds and hearts of it's "victims." Yet we cannot count the sin of unbelief against mankind. Where then do we look to find our understandings of resistance and how it "operates?" Yep, gotta see the real culprits who come "hand in hand" where The Word is sown. The classic "blind leading the blind" is the thief leading it's blinded victims into the ditch. It is these who proclaim that they have found the "narrow road" that have in fact stumbled off of same by finding the broad path that leads to the destruction of nearly ALL their fellow man.

Many who have spoken the truth of all of mankinds salvation, also perhaps first recognized this same resistance in their own flesh, and many here who "dealt with that" perhaps even recoiled in horror, once it was viewed that we too were trapped pawns in that fleshly understanding and dropped the hot potato.

No child of God really wants to be a slave of anything but Love in righteousness. And on that basis I will never divide with the pawns, knowing their same afflictions were and still are in many ways still in my own flesh, but will fight "for" them, knowing "who" the resistance "really is" and why "their works and workings" will not be counted "against us" as Gods offspring, mankind ALL. And also knowing that in the seeding of that same HOPE FOR ALL MANKIND resistance is just as sure to follow as night follows day and sleep proceeds awakening.

It, the "resistance/theft" factor that is a real but "temporary power, in "showing itself" is really then a sign that God gives to "show" the right track and Gods Light upon them in Truth does sooner or later bring their freedom when held forth in Love to the child, and judgment and resistance to the resistance.

When we see the resistor spoke from Peter's lips immediately following Divine Disclosure, we may also see "the Rock" of Truth upon which God DIVIDES every man. Those who fall upon That Rock are indeed broken away from the power of darkness, yet that same darkness will be utterly ground to powder.

An interesting work for those called in that way. Yet a work that is also decried and derailed by many because many do not know "who" they are battling with. I had a man tell me not long ago, that I may have seen the "division" but that I could do nothing about it anyway. Oh yeah? That Light shines upon every man in this way and That Same Light works the same way everytime, cover to cover. Uplifts the child, and resists the resistors.

The Gates of hell will not prevail against "The church" who's building YOU ARE. But that same hell will fall upon them, as they are the purveyors of hell unto mankind and the showing of that disease is of "them."

Just my two cents, but I'd like to point out, that Truth is not a doctrine, it's a person, and that person is a Spirit. ONE aspect of that person's nature is revealed as the concept of UR, but that's all it is, ONE ASPECT, no greater than any other aspect of the same person.

It only "feels" like that initially, just like any revelation does to us, when we're in the midst of the unveiling of it to our souls. The lover of our souls reveals something and for a time, we are just so "in love" with that aspect of His unveiling that it's all we can "see". The tendency is to want to stay there in that oasis with Him forever, but He is forever moving us to the next time of refreshing that will come. We must move with the cloud or be left in that oasis until the water eventually dries up as the Source has left it......

And they can't see it, because He has not opened their spiritual eyes to see it, just like we couldn't see it, until He opened our eyes to see it. It's all about Him and His timing. He won't allow us to get ahead of Him, and He won't allow us to uncover their nakedness (those that don't see it yet) any sooner than we have the garment of His pure love to cover them back up again, lest He judge us for our sins of presumption. She is His bride, and He's tired of men exposing her nakedness and not being legally "married" to her before doing so, and thus spiritually able to be her "covering".....

I personally can't wait for the NEXT unveiling of that magnificent person Blessings to all......

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

julzabro2

Well...I'm new here and feel like I walked into a room full of strange people that I'm unsure of who may or may not like me like walking into a church! HOWEVER, I think I AM one of you.

I just got banned from a certain Christian site this morning and have been reading thru various threads here. I got banned because...from what I gather...I was teaching and/or hinting at Universalism. I have always called myself a liberal Christian but, up until, being labeled and banned for universalism...which I had never studied....I think I may have to reconsider my "label"!

I think the answer to the OP of this thread is obvious...even moreso to universalistic thinkers. Fundamentalist Christians seem to laurd it over people that they SEE things that others don't (as if... ) while universalists seem to understand that there is a process given biblically...NOT destinations.

The simplest way I could say it is that you have to be naked/blinded/wounded/confused even before God can rebuild you. You have to FREELY SEEK HIM. Righteousness is only attained by CHOOSING to search Him out. That, I think, is why it's hidden.

Let me repeat the problem of why it even though it is so plain and simple, why people cannot see it. It is not some mystical reason, but it is a spiritual reason.

Let me repeat what I told to another:

There is simple and concise ways to explain Scriptures that confirm Universal Reconciliation, but that isn't the problem. The problem is the presumptions attached to the Scriptures.

Let me give an example:

If you have been taught Bee's produce an awful poison known as honey and that only certain individuals are immune to it.

It doesn't matter how much you teach that honey is a sweet substance, that is not harmful to any person. You can even eat it, and they won't believe you. You would just be one of the certain individuals who are immune to it. The more you insist on it, the more they will think you are malicious trying to poison them to death. If you do it enough, you will be killed by the mob of angry parents who don't want you killing their children with your lies about honey being safe to eat!

That is what you are up against.

We need to know the minds of the people we are trying to reach. They have been taught for their entire life that if you don't accept Jesus Christ, you are heading to an eternal torment of flames. They are taught it so repetitively, that it is fact to them. It is like me saying, arsonic is good on icecream, it makes it sweeter.

Suprisingly, they did a study on monkey's psycology. In this study there was four monkey's in a cage and an open door. Through that open door is an electric plate that mildly shocked the monkey and he would keep running back into the cage. Over time, the monkey's kept trying to escape and each time they were electricuted. In time, they removed the monkeys one by one, but replacing them with a new one. Over time, they were left with none of the original monkeys, but none of the monkey's would exit through that door. Anytime a new one tried to exit, the other three would block him, in order to protect him. Finally it came to a point where they removed the electric panel and the monkey's could have escaped at any time, none of the next generation of monkey's would exit through that door. Ironically, the monkey's protected each other from something that wouldn't hurt them, but they had no idea what it was that could have hurt them. But try to get a monkey in the last generation to go through that door, they would riot and even harm the monkey trying to go through the door, before ever letting it go through.

So when Scripture says they behave like beasts, that is what we are fighting, the beast.

That is why telling them what it says, and using emotional appeals, do not work. You are dealing with people who are emotionally attached to their doctrine, and their doctrine makes sense. The only way you can get to them, is with your behavior. They will not think twice about condemning you of heresy, if you accuse them of being liars. They will not think twice about condemning you of heresy, if you tell them they lack love because of what they believe. Your behavior is what will bring them around. When they realize you are not insulting them, because your behavior matches your words; when they realize you are not telling them they lack love, just because they believe 98% of the world will rot in perpetual hell, because your behavior matches your words; they will say your a nice person who just happens to live in a fantasy.

That is GOOD. You want them to believe that, you want them to see that. That is what you are trying establish because they will know you are genuine with your good behavior. Because the only way you will make a difference in their life, is if you are their friend and they can talk to you. When CRISIS hits, and their emotions are going crazy, and their doctrines are not helping, you are the one they will go too. They will then see the light of the Gospel.

1 Peter 3:15-17But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

I have been teaching this from the beginning. It is so misunderstood.

There is no room for emotional appeals in when witnessing to people, your emotions are your own, and based on your perceptions. You need to have the knowledge in order to give the reason for the hope when they ask you and always give it with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscious so that those who speak evil against you will be ashamed because of your good behavior.

When the time comes, they will come to you for the answers. Some are forgetful that your behavior does not match their assumption of you, but when crisis hits, they will remember. That is why we love our enemies and bless those who persecute us. We suffer for the sake of good, so that we may be an anchor when their life goes bad.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 07:34:28 AM by Craig »

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martincisneros

That's pretty much where I've been since a really bad experience with Matt Slick a few years ago, that I was briefly highlighting on another thread. The Lord didn't let me sleep for over a month reminding me of all that I'd been taught by my mentor prior to my UR days. 2Timothy 2, if I remember the chief reference correctly. "Servant of the Lord must not be in strife..." I not only won't be in strife, but I'll always do my best to never give anyone ammo for getting into that nonsense. Stops the flow of the anointing and renders the Word of God inoperative in one's life according to Mark 4 and 1John, which is what Satan was after to start with.

squint

RESISTANCE of another sort is beyond any doubt involved with the proclamation of the Gospel. This is exactly how God has devised the "system." It automatically comes WITH RESISTANCE and that RESISTANCE should be "strived" against.

We know that it is the "god of this world" that blinds men to the message of Gods Love and that same "god" will fight to the death IN THEM.

We should know "who" we are striving against and "WHO" we are trying to "reach out to." These are not the same and will bring entirely DIFFERENT WORKINGS in debate. It is ONLY the devil in mankind who RESISTS the message of Gods Unequivocal Love for ALL and that working should be VEHEMENTLY resisted, and not 'LOVED.'

Many in UR do not understand this. This is "legitimate and RIGHTEOUS strife." And many eternal tormentists DO understand this.

Jesus understood it well when He said to Satan, "you are AN OFFENSE TO ME." I will say no differently and I know that it is Satan in men that speak against GODS LOVE, and I have no love or pity for that "working" in men, nor others who view this work as "not kind."

That is why we love our enemies and bless those who persecute us. We suffer for the sake of good, so that we may be an anchor when their life goes bad.

Amen

1 Timothy 4:15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

martincisneros

All good answers. As Andrew Jukes has pointed out, Jesus pointed to His death and resurrection again and again and again to His disciples and they couldn't see it. If having the Son of God right in your face GRABBING YOU by the shirt collar and telling you that He's about to croak can possibly ellude some people because of the strength of their KJV ONLY traditions (so to speak - though in that day it would have been the Septuignt, but that's for another thread), and if Christ could have been totally plain AFTER BREATHING on the disciples and saying RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT and they could still miss the call of the Gentiles, even after Gentiles outnumbered Jewish believers in their synogogues, then DUH! Yeah, we're able to miss this precious truth of the Restoration of all to God. Particularly with translations like the Amplified Bible replacing the "ages of ages" that they used to have in brackets with "eternity of eternities" or other similar nonsense!

The newer edition of Strong's Concordance is also deliberately engineered to try to squeeze the Universalist out of using it and viewing it favorably.