Update: You know who he could have picked who would have totally locked this election up for us?

Update: The Times says Ridge and Lieberman have at last been eliminated and the shortlist is down to Romney and Pawlenty — with David Petraeus being mentioned in a naked attempt by Team Maverick to steal a little buzz from Obama’s VP announcement tomorrow. New theory, then: Halperin’s sources are two pro-Romney partisans within the party who are trying to make life uncomfortable for McCain by putting Mitt’s name out there now and stirring up some excitement for him.

Comments

I haven’t (and won’t) read this crapstorm of a thread, but the very fact that this one- like every thread concerning Romney- degenerates into a pointless debate about Mormonism suggests that picking Romney would be a risky choice.

Is it unfair that he’d be judged negatively based on his faith? Sure. Will it happen? Clearly.

apocalyps: *sigh* Still with the “Mormons aren’t Christians?” Don’t you ever get tired of that? Here you go: 1) Mormons believe we are saved by Christ’s sacrifice. We believe in His Death and Resurrection, and that we are saved only by Him. That’s Christian.

2) We don’t believe in the creedal stuff about Christ, God the Father and the Holy Ghost being some sort of mystic fog. That’s not standard Christianity.

So what are we? We clearly aren’t a different faith like Judaism, Islam, etc–because we do believe in Christ as our Savior. And we have never claimed to be traditional Christians that hold more to 4th century creeds and interpretations. So you are incorrect–we believe in Christ. That’s why we claim we are Christian. Even though we aren’t traditional Christian, it is clearly incorrect to say we do not believe in Christ.

It leaves you in a quandry, doesn’t it? You are saying that people who clearly believe in Christ and His life and that He is God are not Christian. It’s the only group you Evangelicals have to put further demands on than “believe in Christ and be saved”, which is what you say to everyone else. For us, you have to say “Believe that the Nicene Creed is scripture and accurate in order to be saved.”

I also think that’s why Evangelicals freak out so much over Mormons. We don’t fit their categories: Protestant, Catholic, or Non-believers. We aren’t non-believers, but we aren’t Catholic or Protestant either. Plus, our view of God (anthropomorphic) is clearly a biblical view–a literal bible view.

Seriously, if we aren’t Christians, then what do we believe in as the way, the truth, and the light? Who do I pray to? And it’s because you can’t say “Allah” or “Budda” or something like that that causes so much grief. Simply because we DO believe in and follow Christ’s gospel, as much as you try to ignore it. It ties up many evangelicals into knots, and why they freak out and say we are Satanic. Which, of course, our lives (and thus our fruits) clearly demonstrate is incorrect….

And Hollowpoint: It’s a fair question, isn’t it? But tell me–does that mean that Mormons should never run for office, because the haters will always be there?

I remember long ago, Senator Smoot from Utah was solicited to run for the Presidency. He was told he’s win in a landslide. Only on one condition–he had to renounce his faith. Is that still true, or are Americans big enough now to reject that kind of bigotry?

Seriously, if Romney shouldn’t be picked because of this, then when can a Mormon run? Ever? Or if I wanted to run, would I have to take the Senator Smoot option?

Huckabee was the man for President. And you guy’s blew it. You had it right in your finger tips. Right there! The chance to change America and the world, but no … oh no … you wouldn’t have it. The idea of a real Christian President. Eww yuk! Forget Reagan’s warnings about a nation that forgets God. You love to quote that man, but believing his quotes is another thing. Now you’re left with the very real possibility Obama will become President, and I don’t see how you can complain.

apacalyps: there’s only one problem with your statement: Huck as a Christian. His actions pretty much prove he isn’t a real Christian, so no thanks. I don’t want a fake Christian.

A real Christian believes in justice, not letting lots of criminals go free. He believes in responsibility, not amnesty. He believes in truth, not lies and half smears of ads that don’t run–but I’ll show the press anyway!

Okay. Too long to list you all, but you know who you are! Thanks for changes my aggravation in to a huge smile and many giggles. You guys are all so very awesome. When you can go into the foxhole together and do it with it a sense of humor it makes the battles bearable.

BTW~ Geronimo, no need to give condolences with the league MVP in hand. Yes, it was hard for me to see them lose but Kobe’s making it up with all his ‘Go USA’ stuff. He’s like a little kid. I love it!

Ok then, Apacalyps! Glad to know that! Glad to know you are specially gifted to know what is true interpretation and what isn’t.

Since you presumably will go to heaven, I think I’ll say that if your attitude is prevalent there, I don’t want to go. That kind of tolerance (” you don’t believe my way so you are gonna burn!”) is, presumably, something God approves of?

And you are a Huck supporter too! You wonder why people think Huckabites are intolerant?

Oh please apacalyps – I have truly missed you!!!! Ya!
Do you not know about the Nicaean Creed? All those great biblical scholars that decided what the “Christians” had to believe to be called Christians?
Mitt is not running for pastor!
And you know what we all think about huckmonster.
No one would’ve had anything against him until he said he didn’t know anything about Mormonism and you know the rest. I would love to get a copy of the talk he gave in Salt Lake against the Mormons when he was gov of clinton’s state. Do you have it? I’d pay for a copy.
Anyway, it’s good that old st olaf has a buddy.

Ok then, Apacalyps! Glad to know that! Glad to know you are specially gifted to know what is true interpretation and what isn’t.

Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 6:16 PM

No Vance. God doesn’t want you to go to Hell. I don’t want you to go to Hell. Only the Devil wants you to go to Hell. But, you deserve it. I deserve it. We deserve Hell because we have broken God’s Laws. We have disobeyed. And that’s why Jesus Christ came and died on the Cross. He loves you so much He wants you to come to Heaven. Even after we disobeyed God, and left Him, and deserted His Will for our life. He still came to try and win us back. He died on the Cross. His blood is available to pay for your sins if you’ll just ask Him. That’s not my interpretation. That’s what the Holy Bible teaches. It’s that simple. Now you need to give up this silly belief in Joey Smith’s fairytale called Mormonism, and find out who Jesus Christ really is and get yourself out of this nonsense and saved before it’s too late. I don’t think this conversation is by accident.

It may be bad of me to say, but I don’t give a flying fig about the definition of “Christian.”

It’s semantics. To the “Christian is as Christian does” crowd, many Mormons qualify because of the lives they lead, as harmoniously with the teachings of Jesus as they can, looking to Him for salvation.

To the “Christian is as Christian believes” set, Mormons don’t because our doctrine has us following a “different Jesus.”

Bambi, it’s great that apacalyps started out strong: declaring a priori that all Mormons will go to Hell.

To echo someone apacalyps may have heard of, for what good work do you stone us? They answered, basically, that because of this person’s view of divinity and humans, not his works. I.E. his theological background.

It also reminds me of Stephan, the martyr, who saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Clearly a metaphor, because Stephan was stoned to death for believing that he could see a physical Jesus next to God. Hmm… who in this thread is condemning someone to (spiritual) death for their beliefs? Nothing ever changes, does it!

Cough: apacalyps–guess what. I don’t disagree with anything you said about salvation. Indeed, you must be saved via Christ! he indeed shed his blood for my sins, and I can be Saved via Christ! He wants me to come back! I totally agree! I could have written that post myself, aside from the snide remarks about Joseph Smith.

I believe in Christ as my savior. The same Christ who was born of a virgin called Mary, in Bethelem in Judea. The same Christ who called 12 apostles, who suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane, was betrayed, taken before Pilate and crucified. Who died on the cross and was risen the third day. I believe in the New Testament. It’s scripture. I totally know that the only way I go to heaven (if I make it) will be because of the grace of Christ, and His merits, and his Mercy.

We Mormons believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved. I believe in Christ.

I haven’t (and won’t) read this crapstorm of a thread, but the very fact that this one- like every thread concerning Romney- degenerates into a pointless debate about Mormonism suggests that picking Romney would be a risky choice.

Is it unfair that he’d be judged negatively based on his faith? Sure. Will it happen? Clearly.

Hollowpoint on August 22, 2008 at 5:34 PM

I think it become a crapstorm because we have some lurking Democraps in here in the persons of SaintOlaf and apacalyps and a couple of others.

apacalyps, apacalyps, apacalyps…. if we have God wrong, and thus are destined for hell, then what about all those Greek Orthodox people who are also different? How about them Unitarians?

What about Buddhists and Hindus and all those people who worshipped Zeus in 100 BC? They are all in hell too? Come on, man– let’s hear it. Is everyone who doesn’t believe in God the exact same way as you do in hell who have ever lived?

If not, and I suspect you can’t stomach yourself to admit that your version of God is so tyrannical to condemn every single person who doesn’t believe the exact same way you do to hell, then what makes Mormons so special as to be definitively destined to burn because our conception of God is different than yours? What’s worse–belief in Moloch or the Mormon version of the Godhead, which does happen to have biblical basis?

Vance, you are either ignorant (thankfully that can be fixed) or a liar. Which one is it? Why don’t you be honest for a change and list the differences between what the Bible teaches and what Mormonism teaches. You’re the reason I say Mormons are tricky and deceptive. Praise God, there’s nothing that the Christian needs to hide. You guys have to continually hide the dark side of your religion from the naive public. You don’t believe in Christ’s deity. You only believe that Jesus is “a god,” not God Almighty. Isn’t that true?

apacalyps: Once again, you are confusing the Bible with creeds. They are not the same. Get that through your head: the creeds were written after revelation had ceased. Nowhere in the first three hundred years of the Christian church, aside from the Gnostics, does anyone ever claim that Christ and God the Father are the exact same. Jesus is lesser than God the Father. That’s a doctrine called “Subordination.” Look it up. It was preached by Jesus Himself. Jesus is subordinate to God the Father. For you to say otherwise is denying the Bible.

Now, Jesus is God, yes. He is the Creator of all things, just as John says. But when Jesus says that the Father is greater than Him, why don’t you believe it?

It’s not my problem you creedal people have issues with the fact that the Trinity actually means 3 gods. There’s God the Father, the Highest, then Jesus, and then the Holy Ghost. The entire Bible points out that there are 3 of them.

apacalyps, apacalyps, apacalyps…. if we have God wrong, and thus are destined for hell, then what about all those Greek Orthodox people who are also different? How about them Unitarians?

What about Buddhists and Hindus and all those people who worshipped Zeus in 100 BC? They are all in hell too? Come on, man– let’s hear it. Is everyone who doesn’t believe in God the exact same way as you do in hell who have ever lived?

Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 6:57 PM

Really, this says it all. This is something that a true Christian would not say.

You aren’t answering, apacalyps! Does your version of God pretty much consign the overwhelming majority of humans who have ever lived to hell or not?

And as for what a “True Christian” would say–judging on the fact you clearly think you are one of them, and that you are so easily condemning others to hell (i.e me) based solely on beliefs, not deeds, then yeah, I’d say that your version of “true Christianity” is more judgmental than any pharisee or sadduccee ever. Christ didn’t condemn the adulterer, but you are willing to doom me to hell for my beliefs.

if we have God wrong, and thus are destined for hell, then what about all those Greek Orthodox people who are also different?

Orthodox are different? Actually they’re not.

The fact is the Orthodox church IS the original church…the Roman Catholics split from Orthodoxy when the Roman Pope decided to change the doctrine of the Holy Spirit’s procession..

The Orthodox church has an Apostolic succession of Bishops that leads directly to Jesus Christ and the 12 disciples….what does the mormon chuch have? A history that appears out of nowhere 150 years ago with no connection to Jesus Christ whatsoever?

Fine, apacalyps. You take refuge in your version of what the Bible says. After all, many others don’t believe the same as you, so appealing to the Bible settles nothing. See, every sect of Christianity that isn’t yours. For me, if you are right, I’ll be happy in hell with everyone else. You can enjoy your smug superiority with your tyrannical God.

I believe Buddists and Hindus will be judged on their works–individually. I am sure some of them will be in heaven. Some won’t. I’m sure that many Christians will be in Heaven, and many won’t.

SaintOlaf–I have no dog in the Greek Orthodox versus Catholic fight. I don’t particularly care, but I note both define the Godhead differently. I also wonder why you care–you aren’t either of those faiths. If you are correct, and the Greek Orthodox is the original church, then why aren’t you joining them?

Absolutely I am a Christian. You perhaps should think about the plank in your eye.

carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 7:16 PM

Okay fine. Can I ask you a few questions then? First off, what you said to me below clearly contradicts what the Bible teaches. You got angry at me and wrote a minute ago:

A person’s faith is just that – faith, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. If you don’t get that, it is no wonder you post the ‘content’ that you do.

carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Well carbon_footprint, that is the the exact opposite thing the Bible teaches! Romans 1:20 tells us that the Creation is proof of the Creator so we are without excuse! God says he has shown us stuff about creation and it is ‘CLEARLY SEEN’.

“For the invisible things of him (GOD) from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they (meaning people) are WITHOUT EXCUSE:” Romans 1:20

So you need to apologize to me as you are clearly wrong about faith not being seen. God’s creation is everywhere. People will have no excuse when they stand before God. Can’t use the excuse I was misled by evolution. Just like an Arab thinks he will go to heaven and get 72 wives if he blows up some Israelis, he has been misled. Okay. Well, you’ve been misled.

Also, you say you are a Christian then please tell me how does a person get to heaven? Please explain. Thanks.

I agree. Thank you. And this I have no problem with. If a person admits the differences between Christianity and Mormonism, which are clearly significant, I have no problem with that, and from this point two people can have a discussion. This is a much different approach than say Vanceone’s and others like him who say Christianity and Mormonism is essentially the same and both are Christian. Sorry. That’s a problem.

And Hollowpoint: It’s a fair question, isn’t it? But tell me–does that mean that Mormons should never run for office, because the haters will always be there?

I remember long ago, Senator Smoot from Utah was solicited to run for the Presidency. He was told he’s win in a landslide. Only on one condition–he had to renounce his faith. Is that still true, or are Americans big enough now to reject that kind of bigotry?

Seriously, if Romney shouldn’t be picked because of this, then when can a Mormon run? Ever? Or if I wanted to run, would I have to take the Senator Smoot option?

Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 5:57 PM

Could a Lesbian run for President and expect to win? How about a practicing Muslim? A Jew? A Scientologist? An athiest?

Nothing McCain or Romney can say or do will change the fact that anti-Mormon bias does exist- as evident in this and every other Romney thread. We’ve no way of knowing how big an effect that would have on the campaign (since he’d only be the VP nominee), but why take the risk?

Gosh, had to go to a granddaughter’s soccer game and it still goes on. You know apocalyse, Mormons have an answer for you.
Apparently, you do not.
What about all those who have lived long before Christ? What about all the people who live in the jungle and have never heard of him? What about the people in China or the Soviet Union who have never been allowed to hear about Christianity nor had it been allowed to come to their country?
I’d be more than happy to send a couple of sweet young men to tell you about it. Is that a deal?

I’ll answer: I had to do better things than argue with a guy (apacalyps) who is quite proud of the fact that the being he worships is sending the vast majority of the human race to hell and there is nothing those people could have done about it. For one, my wife needed me more than I needed to debate a guy who wriggles with ecstasy at the thought of his fellow humans in hell.

I still have a problem with Romney on the healthcare issue. Isn’t his plan already becoming burdensome on Massachusetts taxpayers? And how would this issue play out in a debate? Is it one of those issues the independents would give him a pass on or approve of enough to make healthcare a non-issue during this campaign?

Also, I’m already seeing the “folksy” label put on Biden. Will this help or hurt McCain, as unfortunately, Mitt is not perceived as “folksy?”

I’m no expert and I don’t have an informed opinion about the Mass. healthcare program, but I’ve seen other HotAir threads this week where that has come up, and someone provided links.

Here’s my uninformed opinion. :)

Vaguely, I recall reading points like this. (1) more people than expected signed up for it, which made it more expensive. This could be seen as a good thing, because that would mean fewer uninsured, but it also shows the downside – it’s expensive, and the money has to come from somewhere. (2) the few “Mitt” parts that survived to make it into the plan have since been excised by the usual legislative suspects and the new Dem governor. (3) still, it’s not as bad as it could have been.

Romney’s instincts – using the private sector as much as possible to fill in the Insured Gap – is superior to the HillaryCare approach, but whenever the government gets involved, however peripherally, it takes on a life of its own. Bureaucracy is self-sustaining.

Mitt deserves credit for trying a different approach to solving the issue, but we’re a long way from a solution.

As to the “folksy” factor…check the other threads. The HotAir crowd is giddy with Obama’s pick, because Biden is such an easy target.

If McCain picks Mitt or another governor, at least there will be one nominee with executive experience on the ticket, compared to none for the Democrats. Senators debate, and are rarely held to account for their votes. Executives get things done, and are used to taking the heat and credit (mostly heat) for their actions.

I haven’t seen anyone audit Romney’s/Mass Healthcare plan, but this editorial seems to make some balanced points.

Universal healthcare will not work in this country. We are too big and the conditions too diverse. It can only be accomplished with state-specific plans, and Romney had the courage and foresight to startg. Action beats argument any day.

One other thought about tax burden–we are already paying a hefty bill for the under-insured and uninsured. A university teaching hospital in my community treats-for a loss- indigents, drug addicts, illegal immigrants and the uninsured. Most of those costs are passed on to the community or health consumer in higher costs for services and higher taxes from costs passed to the state and federal governments via medicaid and other venues.

Any system to cover the uninsured that manages those costs properly, and precludes the passing on of exorbitant hidden costs to the insured health consumer will help to level the increase in taxes that must be absorbed by the taxpaying public.

I took it as you meant it. I like the infrequent discussions of policy we have here, vs the unending war of internal ideology between the Christian conservatives, the social conservatives and the libertarians. Not that it’s bad, it just gets old.

I’d like to see the forum separate into regional discussion groups to see how we would tackle problems in our own states and push for change from the bottom up. I wouldn’t begin to tackle nyc problems, and they would probably fail in Fairhope Alabama.

I think Romney understands how to build coalitions to solve problems. He has done it time and again. That is why I favor him. Two have two genuine leaders on our ticket and not just placeholders inspires me.

Well, Vanceone realized he was being exposed as a heretic. He had to bail out. It was a sinking ship. What he said clearly contradicts Scripture. Here’s a little recap of the festivities. Vance said that Hindus and Buddists are going to heaven. Except just like the Hindus and the Buddists he missed the part in the Bible where God says “You shall have no other gods before me,” and “You shall not make for yourself an idol.” And he missed where Jesus says, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Vance said that Hindus and Buddists will be judged on their works, meaning if they’re good enough God will let them into heaven, even though the Bible says we can NOT work our way to heaven by our good works, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT OF GOD” (Ephesians 2:8). Vance also says nowhere in the first 300 years of the Christian church, aside from the Gnostics (they are a cult), does anyone ever claim that Christ and God the Father are the exact same, even though Jesus Himself told us, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). So Vance is calling God a liar here. Oh yeah, and he blurts out other things like the Bible settles nothing, again this is calling God a liar because God promised to preserve His Word forever in the Scriptures. See Psalms 12:6-7. So there it is. Vance got up and said this before GOD and everbody!! All the while he claims he is a Christian — clarification — a Mormon Christian. I’m still shaking my head.

If McCain doesn’t choose a true conservative running mate, I don’t see how he has any chance of winning over grass roots conservative voters. Then again, it’s the mainstream media and the Republican elite that he needs to please so what was I thinking. Romney just might be the guy afterall.

Jesus Himself said, “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30
apacalyps on August 22, 2008 at 8:08 PM

Matthew 19:5
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall acleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Genesis 11:6
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Acts 4:32
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that bought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Romans 12:5
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Hebrews 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

GALATIANS 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

How does that compare to John 10:30? The answer is simple. Two separate beings, but are one in mind, heart and spirit, figuratively speaking…much like a husband and wife are commanded to be one flesh, and we are commanded to be one with God.

… but, you know I really do care for people and sometimes it’s better for them to hear the truth even if they don’t like it, as opposed to hearing a false sugar-coated gospel? Aww shucks, well now I’m blushing. You know, I can be wrong. You’re a nice guy afterall!!

Apocalyps – you are not reading the posts correctly. Vanceone said no such thing.
You have not taken me up on my offer, nor have you answered my questions about those who have never heard of Christ!
You are condemning them to eternal damnation just because of when and where they came to earth.
Now you have refused to answer that question.
You have to understand that we care about out brothers and sisters and want for them the same thing that is offered to us.
Now go figure!
And quit calling my brothers and sisters liars.
I challenge you to read Conservative Voice’s post again and tell me how you square that?
Of course they are one in spirit, in desire to bring us to live with them.

Apocalyps – you are not reading the posts correctly. Vanceone said no such thing.
You have not taken me up on my offer, nor have you answered my questions about those who have never heard of Christ!
You are condemning them to eternal damnation just because of when and where they came to earth.
Now you have refused to answer that question.
You have to understand that we care about out brothers and sisters and want for them the same thing that is offered to us.
Now go figure!
And quit calling my brothers and sisters liars.
I challenge you to read Conservative Voice’s post again and tell me how you square that?
Of course they are one in purpose, in spirit, in desire to bring us to live with them.

You have not taken me up on my offer, nor have you answered my questions about those who have never heard of Christ!

Bambi on August 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM

You need to read your Bible Mormon Bambi. We all have knowledge of God:

“For the invisible things of him (GOD) from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they (meaning people) are WITHOUT EXCUSE:” Romans 1:20

The creation is proof of the Creator. For instance, when I look at a building, how do I know there was a builder? I can’t see him, hear him, touch him, or smell him. Of course, the building is proof that there was a builder. In fact, I couldn’t want better evidence that there was a builder than to have a building right in front of me. I don’t need “faith” to know there was a builder. All I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works. So how can I know God exists? Why, the creation shows me that there is a Creator. God has planted in the heart of every man the knowledge that there is a righteous God. It’s true only those who have accepted Jesus Christ will go to heaven, but you forget that Jesus Christ is God. There may be people in some heathen pagan society that have asked for God’s forgiveness, and have no concept of what a Christian is. That’s why I don’t know if I wanna use the word, the definition … the term, “Christian” trying to explain this. The Bible says if you seek after God, God will see to him, that you find Him. There are those who don’t want God cause they’re afraid of some of the rules that go along with an authority, and that’s why in the 1800’s this philosophy — evolution — caught on.

Ya Know?
I hate to jump in on this OLD thread other than the I’m with MITT statement that should be enough…
But theres something I noticed.
apacalyps in his fervor to redeem the sinners here never tells us where he is recieving this revelation.
he seems pleased to rail on others faith and their religious leaders, but what do we really know about his faith?
hes never told us. he could be a jehova’s witness. He did say Jesus was Jehova.
I guess what I am wanting to understand is where does he get the authority to preach to us? how was his teacher? For all we know he may have attended curch right there next to Obama for 20+ years listening to Rev. Wright.
I guess what Im also saying is I’m a glutton for punishment and I read all the posts on this thread. In doing so I want to know if I am to be saved by following the preaching of Rev. apacalyps I would like to know who I’m following…

The creation is proof of the Creator. For instance, when I look at a building, how do I know there was a builder? I can’t see him, hear him, touch him, or smell him. Of course, the building is proof that there was a builder. In fact, I couldn’t want better evidence that there was a builder than to have a building right in front of me. I don’t need “faith” to know there was a builder. All I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works. So how can I know God exists? Why, the creation shows me that there is a Creator.

Sounds familiar, apacalyps, and I mean that as a compliment.

Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come.

And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?

…ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets[.] The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

apacalypse is still pushing for Huckabee; do you really think you’re going to convince him to change his mind about the nature of God? :)

Declare victory and move on, and let him do the same. He and we speak different religious dialects (many of our common terms do not have common definitions).

We Mormons have scripture beyond the Bible which we believe helps us better understand the Bible, which is the word of God, but it can be and often has been misinterpreted in places, and over the centuries that has resulted in a proliferation of Christian, Bible-based churches. That the Book of Mormon was written under God’s direction with the specific intent of testifying to the truth of the Bible, and expounding on its themes.

What is the Book of Mormon? A recurring commentary on an edition of the Old Testament that predated the Babylonian captivity. Some history, but mostly Bible commentary and the testimonies of those who had faith in the Christ who SHOULD come, and the testimonies of those who had a knowledge of the Christ who DID come.

To those who don’t believe the Book of Mormon, or in any other non-Biblical scripture, the Mormon perspective on the Bible can be hard to understand. it’s easier to believe that Joseph Smith was a con-man who either made up or plagiarized the Book of Mormon, or a mix of both.

It takes faith to believe that Joseph Smith is who he said he is, that he met who he claims he met, that the Book of Mormon is a translation of “the stick of Ephraim” (Ezek 37) and not a 19th-century hoax.

And it takes a willingness to step back and find a way to agree on common definitions before we can hope to communicate effectively. Remember Ammon and Lamoni? Sometimes you have to start with ABC to ensure common linguistic ground rather than assume you’re all on the same page. Otherwise it’s just a lot of talking past each other.

I guess what I am wanting to understand is — what do we really know about his (apacalyps’) faith? He’s never told us.

WastelandMan on August 23, 2008 at 10:09 PM

Hi WastelandMan. I hope you are doing well. Yes, I’ve explained this before, but for you I’ll do it again. What kind of Christian am I? Well, I don’t really believe in denominations. I liken denomination to divide. That said, I’m not particularily against denominations, it’s just that at the time of Christ there were no denominations. People were just followers of Christ. The word Christian is first mentioned in the Bible in the Book of Acts:

“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch (Syria).” Acts 11:26

These were called Christian. So I am just a Christian.

However, if you want the church denomination that best describes my beliefs, then I could be best describes as an Independent, Fundamental, Tempermental, right-wing, radical, Baptist. The name “independent” means that the church patterns itself after the New Testament example and stands alone under the authority of the Bible and not apart of a national organization that would exercise authority over the local church.

Bambi et al., apacalypse is still pushing for Huckabee; do you really think you’re going to convince him to change his mind about the nature of God? :)

sulla on August 23, 2008 at 11:46 PM

Such a shame how some of you treated this man. Mike is such a great American, a wonderful speaker. As President he could have motivated the nation just like Reagan did and turned things around. He feared God. Even Duncan Hunter endorsed him and we all know DH is a true conservative! You were wrong. You should have backed Huckabee, a candidate who shared your values more fully than any other candidate in a generation. you were just plain wrong.

It takes faith to believe that Joseph Smith is who he said he is, that he met who he claims he met, that the Book of Mormon is a translation of “the stick of Ephraim” (Ezek 37) and not a 19th-century hoax.

You’re telling me! You need so much faith it aint even funny. It’s more likely evolution is true and you evolved from a rock than Joey Smith was a prophet of God. And evolution isn’t even a mathematical probability. I like you Mr. Sulu. No joke. I really do. You’re calm. Level headed. You’re alright in my book, but man, you got taken by this one. All throughout Scripture, the Lord unequivecally condemns consultations with spirit mediums, fortunetellers, astrologoers, witches, and all other occult sources of SUPPOSED knowledge and guidance:

“If there arise among you a prophet (Joseph Smith), or a dreamer of dreams (Joseph Smith), and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, LET US GO AFTER OTHER GODS, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt NOT hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” Deuteronomy 13:1-3

Dude. This warning was written what, 3-4 thousands years before Joseph Smith was even born. You’re not stupid. You can read it like I can. The Bible warned us well in advance to watch out for con men like Smith. This is a man with a magic seer stone and a hat he put his face into to write the sequel to the Bible. Are you kidding me??!!!!! You better wake up. Re-read Deuteronomy 13:1-3 . You are being tested by the LORD to see if you love Him, and so far you’re failing big time. There is no shame admitting you’ve made a mistake. I’ve made tons of mistakes in my life. Just made one again today. Fix yours before it’s too late.

Let me be clear. Believe whatever you want to believe, okay. It’s a free country. I only have a problem when Mormon’s go around claiming they are Christian because they are not. Mormon’s change the entire character of God and it’s literally blasphemous (at the very least). What is done to my Lord by the Mormon doctrine goes well beyond a different interpretation. It’s sickening. It angers me greatly. So this is when I must speak up. Thank you.

It’s not anger as in hate. It’s anger as in heart wrenching frustration because that lying cheating Smith with his magic stone and them golden plates has led and continues to lead thousands of people into hell for their eternal lives:

“And in hell he (a man) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” Luke 16:23-24

In fact, hell is so horrible you’ll beg God to send someone back so they won’t have to come to this horrible place.

“Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lazarus) to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” Luke 16:27-31

Joseph Smith said, “I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet … When they can get rid of me, THE DEVIL WILL ALSO GO.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) — Joseph Smith: founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You know it’s a terrible shame a nice fellow like yourself Mr. Sulu is left having to defend this lying cheating sod. I actually think you’re a nice guy. It is beyond me how you’ve got caught up in this mess. The test for Christian faith and practice is always that of complete fidelity to Scripture and only Scripture.

“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM.” Isaiah 8:20

Joseph Smith teachings when lined up with the Bible fails the test in Isaiah 8:20 miserably. It’s not even debatable. I can only hope and pray you’ll see that someday Mr. Sulu. I don’t care about winning an argument. I care about where you’ll spend eternity. Have a good night. No hard feelings.