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Discussion Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

Many, many times we have seen that SW has been an allegory of the Bible and biblical figures. If you look at one of the final verses in the New Testament you could find the clue to what could be the finale of the Skywalker Saga.

The Holy Bible said:

Behold the Lion of Judah! The Messiah, who came first as a child, but returns not as a child, but now as King of Kings, to rule in power and glory forever! And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for those things have passed away.

Book of Revelations 21:4

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I thought long and hard over the allegory with Luke and Jesus, considering the crucifixion as the point where Luke dies as both Christ died on a rock )the crucifix was driven into a rocky outcrop) as did Luke. So if we follow that chain of thought through it would have Luke resurrected, walk as flesh and blood for a short time before ascending to becoming one with the Force.

But what if Luke has already ascended and will return nit as a child but as the Messiah of the Force?

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I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

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I don't see how there is any particular religious stuff in the ST, so how could you wish for it not to be there?

But beyond that, you not being into religion doesn't mean that someone who is telling a story has to cater to that. It's not like religious themes are automatically on the nose, nor are all themes that also exist in religion non-existent elsewhere. The same archetypes exist in all sort of non-religious stories as well. So just because someone sees something that he links to religion, doesn't mean that this is how the author got there as well.

Though even if it were, what would even be the problems with it?
Star Wars had these themes right from the get go. It's not like Lucas kept it specifically out of it and similarities only popped up later on. One doesn't need to be religious for a story that includes religious themes or archetypes to work. They can work just fine independently from religion, and many of them are religious and non-religious themes at the same time. The entirety of stories that have been told over history are a wild mish-mash of all sorts of stuff, and that includes plenty of religious themes. If you want to get rid of that, you can throw out most of the biggest stories that exist out there.

Many, many times we have seen that SW has been an allegory of the Bible and biblical figures. If you look at one of the final verses in the New Testament you could find the clue to what could be the finale of the Skywalker Saga.

The Holy Bible said:

Behold the Lion of Judah! The Messiah, who came first as a child, but returns not as a child, but now as King of Kings, to rule in power and glory forever! And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for those things have passed away.

Book of Revelations 21:4

Click to expand...

I thought long and hard over the allegory with Luke and Jesus, considering the crucifixion as the point where Luke dies as both Christ died on a rock )the crucifix was driven into a rocky outcrop) as did Luke. So if we follow that chain of thought through it would have Luke resurrected, walk as flesh and blood for a short time before ascending to becoming one with the Force.

But what if Luke has already ascended and will return nit as a child but as the Messiah of the Force?

Click to expand...

I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

Many, many times we have seen that SW has been an allegory of the Bible and biblical figures. If you look at one of the final verses in the New Testament you could find the clue to what could be the finale of the Skywalker Saga.

The Holy Bible said:

Behold the Lion of Judah! The Messiah, who came first as a child, but returns not as a child, but now as King of Kings, to rule in power and glory forever! And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for those things have passed away.

Book of Revelations 21:4

Click to expand...

I thought long and hard over the allegory with Luke and Jesus, considering the crucifixion as the point where Luke dies as both Christ died on a rock )the crucifix was driven into a rocky outcrop) as did Luke. So if we follow that chain of thought through it would have Luke resurrected, walk as flesh and blood for a short time before ascending to becoming one with the Force.

But what if Luke has already ascended and will return nit as a child but as the Messiah of the Force?

Click to expand...

I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

Click to expand...

Probably another reason the movie failed in China Thayer are not religious or alow religion of any type. I neons mind it kinda

Many, many times we have seen that SW has been an allegory of the Bible and biblical figures. If you look at one of the final verses in the New Testament you could find the clue to what could be the finale of the Skywalker Saga.

The Holy Bible said:

Behold the Lion of Judah! The Messiah, who came first as a child, but returns not as a child, but now as King of Kings, to rule in power and glory forever! And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for those things have passed away.

Book of Revelations 21:4

Click to expand...

I thought long and hard over the allegory with Luke and Jesus, considering the crucifixion as the point where Luke dies as both Christ died on a rock )the crucifix was driven into a rocky outcrop) as did Luke. So if we follow that chain of thought through it would have Luke resurrected, walk as flesh and blood for a short time before ascending to becoming one with the Force.

But what if Luke has already ascended and will return nit as a child but as the Messiah of the Force?

Click to expand...

I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

Click to expand...

It didn't start with the ST, it didn't even start with the PT, it's been there since the beginning.

The fallen Jedi in Anakin/Vader equates to the fallen Angel although the why's and wherefores aren't explained much. Hiding a baby to protect them from evil (baby Moses) wasn't first done with the hidden Skywalker twins, nor was someone emerging from a desert wilderness to be a saviour original when Obi-Wan does it in ANH. Redemption is a well trodden tale that seems to originate with the bible, as does the act of performing miracles that we can equate to the powers of the Jedi. We all know the religious undertones within the PT as well as the allegories to the politics of the time and SW lends from fairy tales as well as myths and legends.

Many, many times we have seen that SW has been an allegory of the Bible and biblical figures. If you look at one of the final verses in the New Testament you could find the clue to what could be the finale of the Skywalker Saga.

The Holy Bible said:

Behold the Lion of Judah! The Messiah, who came first as a child, but returns not as a child, but now as King of Kings, to rule in power and glory forever! And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for those things have passed away.

Book of Revelations 21:4

Click to expand...

I thought long and hard over the allegory with Luke and Jesus, considering the crucifixion as the point where Luke dies as both Christ died on a rock )the crucifix was driven into a rocky outcrop) as did Luke. So if we follow that chain of thought through it would have Luke resurrected, walk as flesh and blood for a short time before ascending to becoming one with the Force.

But what if Luke has already ascended and will return nit as a child but as the Messiah of the Force?

Click to expand...

I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

Click to expand...

Probably another reason the movie failed in China Thayer are not religious or alow religion of any type. I neons mind it kinda

Click to expand...

Chinese fiction and entertainment is full of their old religions, whether they believe on them or not (I know only South East Asian Chinese culture and in that people are -really-superstitious, even if not religious. And whatever their religion, deep down they trust in their ancestors, fear black magic and a host of different spirits) In any case, Lucas took a lot of stuff from Asian myths and faiths (and films) and if you switched the settings, costumes and dropped the spaceships, you could transfer the whole story in to the cheesiest wuxia, down to the heart throb villain. The thing is, China doesn't -need- Star Wars, for them their own legends and myths are the most important and still inspire countless of movies and series.
More culturally West-connected asians like Singaporeans like Star Wars more, because for them, Western popular culture is equally familiar as Asian one.

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Many, many times we have seen that SW has been an allegory of the Bible and biblical figures. If you look at one of the final verses in the New Testament you could find the clue to what could be the finale of the Skywalker Saga.

The Holy Bible said:

Behold the Lion of Judah! The Messiah, who came first as a child, but returns not as a child, but now as King of Kings, to rule in power and glory forever! And God shall wipe all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain: for those things have passed away.

Book of Revelations 21:4

Click to expand...

I thought long and hard over the allegory with Luke and Jesus, considering the crucifixion as the point where Luke dies as both Christ died on a rock )the crucifix was driven into a rocky outcrop) as did Luke. So if we follow that chain of thought through it would have Luke resurrected, walk as flesh and blood for a short time before ascending to becoming one with the Force.

But what if Luke has already ascended and will return nit as a child but as the Messiah of the Force?

Click to expand...

I really wished they would have left all the religious stuff out of the ST like church of the force, Luke as Jesus and a messiah. Not everyone is into religion.

Click to expand...

It didn't start with the ST, it didn't even start with the PT, it's been there since the beginning.

The fallen Jedi in Anakin/Vader equates to the fallen Angel although the why's and wherefores aren't explained much. Hiding a baby to protect them from evil (baby Moses) wasn't first done with the hidden Skywalker twins, nor was someone emerging from a desert wilderness to be a saviour original when Obi-Wan does it in ANH. Redemption is a well trodden tale that seems to originate with the bible, as does the act of performing miracles that we can equate to the powers of the Jedi. We all know the religious undertones within the PT as well as the allegories to the politics of the time and SW lends from fairy tales as well as myths and legends.

Click to expand...

I've been saying this sort of thing for years and fully believe in the theory established by this train of thought on Luke's return.Just from a secular point of view Jesus was the ultimate martyr.Imagine what JJ could do with his return in the flesh if this is fully realized.Would the Knights of Ren be like the Deciples if they had fallen away?Would Luke's return sway them back?It could be anything epic.

Indeed, if Rey hears Luke's voice in IX, turns around to see him, thinking it'll be his Force Ghost, but it's actually Luke there in the flesh, that would be amazing. Luke being able to move back and forth between the spiritual and physical plain is something that would redeem his death in TLJ and open up some very interesting narrative possibilities for the final chapter of the Skywalker Saga.

Let Luke's disappearance at the end of TLJ be not his death but his leaving the island, leaving his isolation. And have him reappear elsewhere later on.

But I don't want to see Luke in IX as simply Obi-Wan's Ghost 2.0.

I'm OK with any Biblical parallels that come with that choice because it only plays into the mythology/legendary vibe of this saga when it is at its very best.

They've had a character capable of that - Mother Talzin of Dathomir, she was able to exist in both the physical and spiritual realms. She did however tap into the dark side of the Force with her ancient magicks via spirit ichor / living force. If spirit ichor flows inside the island, perhaps Luke could conjure it to his benefit, but at what cost? Don't Jedi let go of the physical when their end is at hand?

Usually yeah. Trying to cling onto the physical/defy death is usually portrayed as a BAD thing that Dark Siders/Sith are obsessed with. Jedi can become Force Ghosts in part because they accept that they will die eventually.

Indeed, if Rey hears Luke's voice in IX, turns around to see him, thinking it'll be his Force Ghost, but it's actually Luke there in the flesh, that would be amazing. Luke being able to move back and forth between the spiritual and physical plain is something that would redeem his death in TLJ and open up some very interesting narrative possibilities for the final chapter of the Skywalker Saga.

Let Luke's disappearance at the end of TLJ be not his death but his leaving the island, leaving his isolation. And have him reappear elsewhere later on.

But I don't want to see Luke in IX as simply Obi-Wan's Ghost 2.0.

I'm OK with any Biblical parallels that come with that choice because it only plays into the mythology/legendary vibe of this saga when it is at its very best.

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This is actually a fantastic idea, as it plays into the theme of "moral ambiguity."

One of GL's original ideas for the sequels involved the idea that to truly understand and "balance" the Force, one had to accept both the light and dark within themselves, and ergo, the light and dark halves of the power that the Jedi and Sith both wield. Given that the Jedi accept death and the transition to the spiritual (which in reality represents overcoming fear of the unknown) and the Sith cling to the physical precisely because of fear of the unknown, being able to straddle both worlds, if done correctly, could represent a way to demonstrate said balance. It reminds me of the one of the (now discarded) ideas for an "Anakin Force Ghost" for Ep III, in which one half of his face was scarred and the other whole, representing the conflict within himself.

I'm hoping that JJ and the writers will go bold. It would be a novel way to wrap up the series, and continue to "shake things up" in a similar vein to Rian Johnson's maneuvers with TLJ.

I really don't see any overtly religious allegories in the sequel trilogy, and certainly nothing that caters specifically to Christianity. If anything, the whole idea of the Force and Jedi was more inspired by eastern philosophies, samurai, etc. There are themes that are consistent with multiple religions and philosophies in the movies, both new and old, but let's not pretend that Disney has suddenly turned the films into something overtly Christian, because that is simply not the case.

I really don't see any overtly religious allegories in the sequel trilogy, and certainly nothing that caters specifically to Christianity. If anything, the whole idea of the Force and Jedi was more inspired by eastern philosophies, samurai, etc. There are themes that are consistent with multiple religions and philosophies in the movies, both new and old, but let's not pretend that Disney has suddenly turned the films into something overtly Christian, because that is simply not the case.

This sounds like a good take on a possible role for Luke and I admire your optimism. It would add a nice twist into story and an interesting one.
There are a lot of avenues they could take with Luke even in a small part.

I'm just wondering if JJ would actually do that considering how he was with Luke in The Force Awakens even though that last scene with Mark was epic.

It's always so cute when people assume that any religious undertones are somehow tied to Christianity, specifically.
So very cute.

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It isn't Narnia, but there is something to be said about a two-thousand year shaping of the substructures of western thought and ethics, especially if the audience is integral to the work, such that even oriental tropes taste western.

I fail to see any connection between Kylo's story (I'm assuming that is what you are referring to) and that particular parable.

And yes, Ton_G, there is a lot to be said, but aside from the obvious overwhelming Eastern influences (not to mention Eastern film, such as The Hidden Fortress), my deeper point was that many people watched The Phantom Menace and thought..."It's just like Jesus!"...when they have no idea that the whole story of Jesus' virgin birth was, in turn, inspired by other such tales that came long before that one was concocted into a religious following. It's classic mythology, which is why it resonates with people on a level they may not even be cognizant of.

I fail to see any connection between Kylo's story (I'm assuming that is what you are referring to) and that particular parable.

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I was referring to Kylo's story arc in TFA up to the point where he was accepted back by his father (Han). Of course we now know Kylo's story veers off in a different direction, had he not killed Han and returned to his family it would be incredibly similar.

I think it is natural that people who are Christian associate the allegories with their faith as it's what they know, I assume it's the same for those that are Jewish, Muslim, Buddist etc... Myth, legends, religion and even world history has inspired events in a GFFA and it's all thrown into the soup of the story.