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Adam and Eve : 2 of the dumbest people in books

Posted on: February 17, 2008 - 3:36pm

dr3

Posts: 8

Joined: 2007-09-22

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Adam and Eve : 2 of the dumbest people in books

I'm not a hardcore bible scholar, but I've always thought Adam and eve were retards. Adam and Eve were tricked into eating poison by a talking snake when they were just told by the "creator" it was poison and would kill them. How dumb can you be? I think a 6 year old could have lasted a lot longer in the garden of Eden than these 2 fools. And these 2 morons were supposedly created in "god's image" that makes "god" look bad. But then again I wouldn't expect an Einstein to made in the biblical god's image, someone like Adam seems much more appropriate..

I think this is a case of overreading into the text, something frequently levelled against fundamentalists. Every narrative has conflict/rise in plot? The lie is what provides the counter fact that the fruit may in fact be good and not bad. The cause to doubt is the thrust of the narrative. It has nothing to do with God's "image" but with mans choice to trust God or not.

The story of Adam and Eve, in my opinion, is one of the most interesting fables in the whole Bible. God orders Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If they do, they would die die that very day. The serpent says that isn't the case. He tells them that rather than dying, their eyes would be opened to know good and evil. Who was right? One might assume God would be.... but that isn't how the story turns out.

Neither Adam or Eve died from eating the fruit. They lived many years after and had many children. And their eyes were opened to know good and evil. What God had warned them did not come to pass. Instead, things turned out how the serpent said they would. This is just one of several passages in the Bible where God deceives or attempts to deceive man.

By the way, nothing in this text speaks of "spiritual death" or gives any hint that the death god speaks of was anything other than literal physical death. And God was not saying that man will simply become mortal the day he eats the fruit, leading him on a slow path of eventual death. God's warning, clear and unambiguous in the Hebrew text, is that they'd die die that very day. As a further note, there is nothing in Genesis implying that man was originally created immortal. In fact, the presence of the tree of life in the story is a clue that the original storytellers thought of mankind as created mortal, and mankind could only become immortal through of eating of its fruit.

The reason the moral of this story seems wrong and backwards from what we would expect, the reason is doesn't seem to fit with the rest of Genesis and the Bible, is that Genesis was not originally written from scratch as one coherent story. It is compilation of stories from various sources, imperfectly woven together. A lot of evidence points to many of the source stories originally being polytheistic, and not all the gods in those stories were good. There are further weird things about God in Genesis... another interesting one is that God isn't omniscient and doesn't know if what he heard about Sodom and Gomorrah is true until he sends messengers to earth to investigate.

Yes the main person in charge of the Original Bible Project and its translation the "Transparent English Bible", Dr. Tabor, is a Christian. And certainly he has some very nutty ideas on certain topics. But his work on this translation is very honest and scholarly, and takes exactly the approach we need in a Bible translation. I expect it to be one of the best English translations of the Bible ever accomplished, once the work is completed.

This god person couldn't find two naked teenagers in his own garden...

Who's the 'tard?

LC >;-}>

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.

As a Christian, this is my favorite story. We are ALL Adam and Eve(s) First we must understand that God had a preordained plan when he created the world. God knew man would sin and he knew that because of our sin we would die and he knew we needed a saviour because He gave us free will.

The serpent enticed Eve with power, to be her own God much like many of you in this forum are guility of. There is a reason the bible refers to us as his "sheep" and he is the shepherd. The sheep is one of if not the dumbest animal on the face of this planet.

God told Adam and Eve that because they sinned they will die and it came to pass because Adam died, you see when God created Adam, he created him in His image with an eternal spirit but once Adam sinned he placed an expiration date on himself.

This god person couldn't find two naked teenagers in his own garden...

Who's the 'tard?

LC >;-}>

God knew where Adam and Eve were, when he asked, "Adam where are you"? but He wasn't asking from a physical sense but a social one. Adam was a man who was given a role/ responsiblity by God.

Adam where were you when your wife was being enticed by the serpent? Adam where were you when your wife ate the apple?, Adam where were you when your wife convinced you to eat the apple?. Adam what is your role I gave you?

This god person couldn't find two naked teenagers in his own garden...

Who's the 'tard?

LC >;-}>

God knew where Adam and Eve were, when he asked, "Adam where are you"? but He wasn't asking from a physical sense but a social one. Adam was a man who was given a role/ responsiblity by God.

Adam where were you when your wife was being enticed by the serpent? Adam where were you when your wife ate the apple?, Adam where were you when your wife convinced you to eat the apple?. Adam what is your role I gave you?

Absolutely beautiful!

You can't be serious, can you? If that were the case, "Where were you when eve ate from the tree"? This would have been more appropriate. In what context can this verse be read to indicate what you are suggesting is true?

This just goes to show that gawd isn't all knowing and mysogeny is rampant in the bible. Wait, sorry an atheist...... don't believe in gawd.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS

LOL....he gave Adam an opportunity to confess his sin and repent before God spoke again and pronounced punishment. A spiritual accounting so to speak.

The context is in the verses before and after, Adam never said, "Here I am" he soke as if God knew where he was not to mention God knew he ate from the tree but you would probably explain that away by God was hiding and spying on them.

Adam sinned and God gave Adam a chance to repent, "Adam where art thou" but instead he lied, took no blame and passed the buck to his wife who in turn she blamed the serpent.

As a Christian, this is my favorite story. We are ALL Adam and Eve(s) First we must understand that God had a preordained plan when he created the world. God knew man would sin and he knew that because of our sin we would die and he knew we needed a saviour because He gave us free will.

The serpent enticed Eve with power, to be her own God much like many of you in this forum are guility of. There is a reason the bible refers to us as his "sheep" and he is the shepherd. The sheep is one of if not the dumbest animal on the face of this planet.

God told Adam and Eve that because they sinned they will die and it came to pass because Adam died, you see when God created Adam, he created him in His image with an eternal spirit but once Adam sinned he placed an expiration date on himself.

Theist tag in 5, 4, 3...

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."

LOL....he gave Adam an opportunity to confess his sin and repent before God spoke again and pronounced punishment. A spiritual accounting so to speak.

The context is in the verses before and after, Adam never said, "Here I am" he soke as if God knew where he was not to mention God knew he ate from the tree but you would probably explain that away by God was hiding and spying on them.

Adam sinned and God gave Adam a chance to repent, "Adam where art thou" but instead he lied, took no blame and passed the buck to his wife who in turn she blamed the serpent.

ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!

Umm... they were created with no concept of good or bad, right? Just how did god expect them to obey him? They had no notion of what it was to obey and very really the threat of death would have been incomprehensible to them and I'll remind you, a lie. Further, wasn't it the snake who contradicted god and got the two people who couldn't possibly have known better to do the bad in the first place? This story is about nothing else but perverse trickery, a hallmark of the biblical god.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."

That is not 100% true. It is true that they never experienced right and wrong before but God placed the laws in their hearts. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve knowledge of sin and that is why they tried to clothe themselves infront one another -tried to hide from God because the innocence was gone.

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God put the tree in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free wills, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. The result – evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in each and every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin.

If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be “free” – they had to have a choice. There was no perverse trickery.

We all have a choice. God doesn't want lemmings. He wants us to come to him willingly ultimately giving God the glory.

Now I know that all analogies limp but your's is a 122 year old man running a marathon. Look! you are not understanding God's purpose, being, divinity, nature and not surprising because most Christians don't either.

First of all nothing is for us, absolutely nothing, it is all for God's purpose and glory. The bible is not some self help book figuring out how I can get the best life- health, money and the rest of that nonsense using God but it's the otherway around. God uses us for His best purposes.

When God created man, he wanted to have a family who would love him, worship him and give him the glory (so he created his pre ordained plan) but he knew in order for this to happen he would have to create man with free will and choose him freely because he didn't want little robots - that wouldn't serve his purposes nor his nature. But God knew that if he gave man free will he would sin and ultimately disconnect God from man forever (eternal punishment in hell) because God cannot stand sin. It is putrid to him. It violates him in more ways we could never imagine.

God cast Adam and Eve out of paradise but promised them that one day he will send the perfect sacrifice (Jesus) who will reconnect God with man. It is His preordained, perfect plan which gives God the glory.

All thru the bible God allows and wills bad things to happen to ultimately serve his good purposes. When Jesus was crucified, satan was happy since he was instrumental in his death therefore killing any chance God had with his precious man which is a bad thing for us but God would use Jesus death, he sacrificed his Son to reconnect man with God thus giving Him the glory. Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer 6 years ago so his son (an atheist) could be saved from God's wrath.

And to answer your question, if it takes your two little girls to die so that God can use their deaths to save their daddy from God's wrath. the answer is YES!

Every wretched man and woman that becomes saved gives him the glory for His kindness, mercy and love, every person sent to hell gives him the glory for His righteous and just side.

In the end God is who he is, his nature is receiving glory and this is his pre ordained plan and it is right on schedule which once again shows how great and mighty and always in control God is which gives him what? ah, yes. the Glory!

You weren't a Christian, you were what we call a "false convert" You never truely came to know Christ. Right now the church is full of them, millions of them. You always had something that kept you from totally surrendering to Him or you came for the wrong reasons.

Your pride got the better of you and you wanted to do it your way. No surprise to me because most atheist I come across are false converts, that is why you guys are so angry and I don't blame you because those ministers damaged your beautiful walk with Christ

You weren't a Christian, you were what we call a "false convert" You never truely came to know Christ. Right now the church is full of them, millions of them. You always had something that kept you from totally surrendering to Him or you came for the wrong reasons.

Your pride got the better of you and you wanted to do it your way. No surprise to me because most atheist I come across are false converts, that is why you guys are so angry and I don't blame you because those ministers damaged your beautiful walk with Christ

Wrong. If I wasn't a christian then no one is. Actually I have always had a rather shitty opinion of myself. My older brother was an egomaniac and lorded it over me.

The "false convert" idea is just a way that a Christian such as yourself tries to make sense of people like me.

I wanted to "do it my way", eh? Odd. I live no differently now than I did when I fully believed in the bible and the abrahamic god. I work, I raise my three girls with love, I'm faithful to my wife, I don't break the law, I'm kind and friendly to people.

Let's get this straight, little christian. When you see anger in my words it is anger over that terrible fiction you were indoctrinated in from birth not you as a person. I understand how much it blinds you to reality and chains your mind into a little, primitive box.

I actually have no bad memories of growing up in church or for any of the preachers that I was raised listening to.

The only person I have ever cried for when he died was the man that taught me Sunday School growing up. I cried when they buried him for a week afterward. And I cried the last day of the year of his death because I knew I was leaving the last calendar year that he lived.

Actually, no. I don't need to explain away people like you. It is obvious you are angry, leaving the father and going back to eating the pig's slop in the parable of the The Prodigal's Son and there are many other parables describing people such as you.

You live no differently? well then that proves my point of "false convert" because I live much differently, well try my hardest at least.

Do you lie? do you steal? Do you lust? Do you cuss? Do you covet? how about your secret sins? what if your wife knew them? Still think your a good person? because I struggle with these and if you are living the same way now than when you were a "christian" then I really would have to wonder about your Christian walk? I am not talking about low self esteem, I am talking about you being a vile wretched person that if your friends and family knew your thoughts for the past 6 months you couldn't show your face.

and Yes! there are real Christians, like Paul, He fought the good fight, he saw it to the end. That's a Christian

Actually, no. I don't need to explain away people like you. It is obvious you are angry, leaving the father and going back to eating the pig's slop in the parable of the The Prodigal's Son and there are many other parables describing people such as you.

You live no differently? well then that proves my point of "false convert" because I live much differently, well try my hardest at least.

Do you lie? do you steal? Do you lust? Do you cuss? Do you covet? how about your secret sins? what if your wife knew them? Still think your a good person? because I struggle with these and if you are living the same way now than when you were a "christian" then I really would have to wonder about your Christian walk? I am not talking about low self esteem, I am talking about you being a vile wretched person that if your friends and family knew your thoughts for the past 6 months you couldn't show your face.

and Yes! there are real Christians, like Paul, He fought the good fight, he saw it to the end. That's a Christian

So cute. Makes me want to just squeeze your cheeks!

Have you ever lied? yes

Have I ever stolen? yes

Do I lust? all the time

Do I cuss? Fuck yeah. But not in polite company.

Do I covet? Sure. You don't?

Secret sins? Well since a sin is doing what god doesn't want you to do...and god doesn't exist...urhm no...I don't have those.

If my wife knew them? Ok. HAHA. I tell her every dark little secret. Why? Cause I don't have that much to hide. Do you want me to list every dark little sick thought in my head right here on a public forum? I will do it. My "sick thoughts" are rather...well tame.

So, Cad, how about providing evidence to support your arguments? You clearly believe that the Bible's testimony is a literal retelling of history. So? Where's the evidence to suggest that the Earth was created in under a week? Where's the evidence it's just a few thousand years old? Where's the evidence that Yahweh exists? Where's the evidence Jesus was here?

We'll start with those for now.

Quote:

"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

Ah Cad.You,Watcher and I would all get along so well if you'd lose the theism. Now, no doubt you're going to tell me I was never a true christian. And I'm also going to argue that if I wasn't, I don't know who is. When I became atheist, my christian friend said he couldn't understand, I was such a good person I made him feel evil sometimes.

Know what? I haven't changed much.I'm still that good person. I don't want to kill or steal or anything.I know you will consider the stuff I do as sinful, but what's sin without a god.

I hope in 10 years when you're atheist someone will say you were never a christian. And it will probably happen.I said I would never deny christ, I was more than willing to die for him. But someone has to be the apostate,how can you be sure it won't be you.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:

This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

That is not 100% true. It is true that they never experienced right and wrong before but God placed the laws in their hearts. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve knowledge of sin and that is why they tried to clothe themselves infront one another -tried to hide from God because the innocence was gone.

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God put the tree in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free wills, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. The result – evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in each and every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin.

If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be “free” – they had to have a choice. There was no perverse trickery.

We all have a choice. God doesn't want lemmings. He wants us to come to him willingly ultimately giving God the glory.

ohhhhhhh...ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!!

I forget how many times I've heard this delusion since I joined this site. I'm an ex-catholic with years of parochial school including a Jesuit University. Catholicism considers the Genesis story to be figurative language not real. I imagine you are some sort of Protestant based on your Fundy statements. Once I was like you until it hit me in the face what BS the claims religions make from their reading between the lines in 2000-2500 year old badly translated writings by ancient savages. You should stand in front of a mirror and read the ridiculous statements you just made. If you don't break out in laughter you are so deluded by mythology you deserve to waste your life worshiping the imaginations of the ignorant ancients.

First off, if the snake is Satan when and where did he fall from God, please cite chapter and verse.

Second, please indicate where in the Bible Satan ever killed anyone, please cite chapter and verse. God however has blood in nearly every chapter on his hands.

Third, if Satan is so evil and cannot look upon God please explain Job.

Fourth, claiming what you do as real in your interpretation of Genesis is dishonest, please detail where you got:

1-"they never experienced right and wrong before but God placed the laws in their hearts." Cite chapter and verse where God claims this or retract it.

2-"God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world." Please cite chapter and verse where God claims this or retract it.

3-"Adam and Eve's decision results in each and every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin." Not according to the Jews who claim man is born a pure soul and can return it to God the same way. Please cite chapter and verse or retract.

4-"We all have a choice. God doesn't want lemmings. He wants us to come to him willingly ultimately giving God the glory." Please cite where God says he does not want lemmings.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

I think this is a case of overreading into the text, something frequently levelled against fundamentalists. Every narrative has conflict/rise in plot? The lie is what provides the counter fact that the fruit may in fact be good and not bad. The cause to doubt is the thrust of the narrative. It has nothing to do with God's "image" but with mans choice to trust God or not.

Hate to say it but, I agree with a Theist. I think some atheists make the mistake of calling the bible stupid. Obviously the bible writers can't be that stupid and bad if they got so many people to believe it.

The story reveals the conflict that man now has since self awareness, language and understanding have evolved in our species. Before we evolved into the homo-sapien species, we were innocent animals, decisions driven by instinct instead of understanding. The fruit of the tree of good and evil(knowledge) is representative of our rational thinking development and quest for knowledge. With knowledge came power, this power could be used to help or harm(good or evil). And the questions of "who am I?, how did I get here?, where am I going?, Am I my brother's keeper? have become important.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer 6 years ago so his son (an atheist) could be saved from God's wrath.

How did I miss this? So is that what this is about? Your father died of cancer, so you think god should be worshipped for that? What's really happening here is your scared of death and you want some mindless comfort. I don't blame you.When things get tough I find myself thinking about my christian days. That feeling of sending off a prayer and thinking 'well, I've got god working on it for me now.' But are you really being helped or putting an imaginary bandage on a real wound?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:

This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.

Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer 6 years ago so his son (an atheist) could be saved from God's wrath.

How did I miss this? So is that what this is about? Your father died of cancer, so you think god should be worshipped for that? What's really happening here is your scared of death and you want some mindless comfort. I don't blame you.When things get tough I find myself thinking about my christian days. That feeling of sending off a prayer and thinking 'well, I've got god working on it for me now.' But are you really being helped or putting an imaginary bandage on a real wound?

Loc,

Many converted Christians fall to irrational beliefs from a significant emotional event. Deaths of loved ones, rejection by a lover, waking up in an alley, a DUI and waking up in jail, or almost dying from a drug overdose are examples. They turn to religion or God as a new crutch or addiction to deal with the world as they feel they are incapable of dealing with reality on their own. Cadalyst's cause is the death of his father. Depending on the underlying cause these people have for conversion the odds of reaching them with reason may be limited or not possible. I have found those who utilize God as a crutch to overcome addictions are the hardest to reason with as they seem to drift to the Fundy views. In most cases, I leave these people alone as I feel a non-drinking alcoholic that uses God is better than a drunk driving the streets.

Cadalyst it seems may never have understood that all people die and reached for God in a moment of weakness. His statement to Watcher his 2 little girls may have to die to save him for God shows how he has rationalized death as a cause beyond man's abilities. It may be that cancer is beyond man to cure right now, but prevention of accidental deaths certainly are not. Cadalyst however doesn't see it that way as he indicates it is God that drives the time line of man to his own ends which we do not grasp. This same line of thought was used in the Crusades and the Inquisition as justification for murder and mayhem. Cad indicates this idea from his concepts in interpreting the Garden story of Adam and Eve where he reads into the story justifications that aren't really in it. This of course creates a paradox that most Fundy Christians never see. It is the argument of free will versus God's plan. It is of course not possible for lowly man to ever understand God, so we must just accept what he gives us. This is really denying responsibilities for actions by man. Those who claim an "act of God" for their house being flooded in a 'flood plain' or a house destroyed on the beach in Florida from a hurricane are justifying the stupidity they had by building there in the first place. Eventually California or Los Angles will be destroyed by an earthquake and to claim this is an act of God is false. No one in California can claim they don't know they live on a major fault that will eventually slip. Is that God or simply nature?

Where he says:

Cadalyst wrote:

First of all nothing is for us, absolutely nothing, it is all for God's purpose and glory.

~rip~

God uses us for His best purposes.

This shows how he has denied responsibility and has put everything on God. As God has a plan it is for his glory that everything happens and not for us to understand. This way, the believer can now use his belief in God as a crutch and not accept responsibility.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

First of all nothing is for us, absolutely nothing, it is all for God's purpose and glory

So, like, when I'm taking a dump. That's a dump for the purpose and glory of Yahweh?

Quote:

"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

So, Cad, how about providing evidence to support your arguments? You clearly believe that the Bible's testimony is a literal retelling of history. So? Where's the evidence to suggest that the Earth was created in under a week? Where's the evidence it's just a few thousand years old? Where's the evidence that Yahweh exists? Where's the evidence Jesus was here?

We'll start with those for now.

ah! yes the evidence question. The funny thing is I see evidence all around me, the evolution "theory" doesn't fly me even if I wasn't a Christian because no matter how you cut it, slice it at the end of the day you atheist still have to prove that something came from nothing gravity, physics etc... all just came together.

You can laugh at me but I am sorry if you can't see how your belief is suspect as well.

Ah Cad.You,Watcher and I would all get along so well if you'd lose the theism. Now, no doubt you're going to tell me I was never a true christian. And I'm also going to argue that if I wasn't, I don't know who is. When I became atheist, my christian friend said he couldn't understand, I was such a good person I made him feel evil sometimes.

Know what? I haven't changed much.I'm still that good person. I don't want to kill or steal or anything.I know you will consider the stuff I do as sinful, but what's sin without a god.

I hope in 10 years when you're atheist someone will say you were never a christian. And it will probably happen.I said I would never deny christ, I was more than willing to die for him. But someone has to be the apostate,how can you be sure it won't be you.

Dude the red letters decribe people such as you and like I mentioned before the church is full of people like you. I remember Paul's understudy (I can't remember his name) he studied, followed and learned under the best desciple and yet he left Paul and went back to the world. If he did then who are you? Just because you left the faith doesn't prove a thing other than you weren't a christian to begin with, the prodigal son gone back to the pig's slop

That is not 100% true. It is true that they never experienced right and wrong before but God placed the laws in their hearts. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve knowledge of sin and that is why they tried to clothe themselves infront one another -tried to hide from God because the innocence was gone.

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God put the tree in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free wills, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. The result – evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in each and every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin.

If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be “free” – they had to have a choice. There was no perverse trickery.

We all have a choice. God doesn't want lemmings. He wants us to come to him willingly ultimately giving God the glory.

ohhhhhhh...ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!!

I forget how many times I've heard this delusion since I joined this site. I'm an ex-catholic with years of parochial school including a Jesuit University. Catholicism considers the Genesis story to be figurative language not real. I imagine you are some sort of Protestant based on your Fundy statements. Once I was like you until it hit me in the face what BS the claims religions make from their reading between the lines in 2000-2500 year old badly translated writings by ancient savages. You should stand in front of a mirror and read the ridiculous statements you just made. If you don't break out in laughter you are so deluded by mythology you deserve to waste your life worshiping the imaginations of the ignorant ancients.

First off, if the snake is Satan when and where did he fall from God, please cite chapter and verse.

I believe Satan and all the angels were created within the six days of creation thus the rebellion was during that time as well.

Second, please indicate where in the Bible Satan ever killed anyone, please cite chapter and verse. God however has blood in nearly every chapter on his hands.

For a studied catholic, that really is a weak question. God is always in control. We are sinful creatures therefore we deserve the penalty which is death. As much nonsense as man has done since our very existence who are we to argue against God's standards

Third, if Satan is so evil and cannot look upon God please explain Job.

Are you sure you studied the bible? who said satan was in heaven, that is a misconception. God cannot stand sin so satan cannot and does not rome around the throne

Fourth, claiming what you do as real in your interpretation of Genesis is dishonest, please detail where you got:

1-"they never experienced right and wrong before but God placed the laws in their hearts." Cite chapter and verse where God claims this or retract it.

God programmed the laws when he created them (not it doesn't say that in genesis- but it only makes sense since in Corinthians I believe where it says the laws were placed in all mens hearts and I belive Adam and Eve would qualify) but it didn't kick in until they committed their first sin, they had no understanding of sin until they were told not to eat of the tree in which they disobeyed and experienced sin for the first time

2-"God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world." Please cite chapter and verse where God claims this or retract it.

Isn't it obvious, if it's God's preordained plan he knows the future till the end of time, he knew the 9-11 happened but he still let it happen because it was his will. everything I said there is feasilble

3-"Adam and Eve's decision results in each and every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin." Not according to the Jews who claim man is born a (pure soul and can return it to God the same way. Please cite chapter and verse or retract.)-I don't even know what that means

The bible is full of exmaples of the sinful nature. It's funny parents are always buying books teaching how to make their kids be good but I don't see them buying books teaching kids to be bad, it is not needed, we are sinful from the day of birth.

4-"We all have a choice. God doesn't want lemmings. He wants us to come to him willingly ultimately giving God the glory." Please cite where God says he does not want lemmings.

You want a verse on God giving man free will? It's obvious, even you atheist mention it and laugh at it. God gave us free will for a reason.

First off you were a catholic enoughsaid, if I was one I would assuredly still be an atheist.

I am not at my computer so I can't give you chapter and verse but that that is what I read, studied and was taught. Scripture supports scripture, you just can't cite chapter and verse. Atheists ask how were the old testament saints before Jesus arrived on the scene? because the name Jesus is not mentioned in the old testament but God promised Adam he will send the perfect sacrifice and we see that context in the new testament as well leading us to the truth that the perfect sacrifice was Jesus.

If you think I am being dishonest that's your right but I am being truthful to what I have studied.

Jesus called Peter Satan. Paul is the anti christ, and Cadalyst is a Pauline Dogmist, an Idol worshiper, who thinks his sense of awe is special.

Now come on does that make any logical sense you just said, Where is the rational thinking you atheist so profess to show. I have lived in three countries and I have been giving one speeding ticket, no trouble with the law anywhere, wouldn't even harm a fly and I am a terrorist?

You athiest are intentionally hiding the truth at least Frederich Nietzche had the courage to show the dark side of atheism but you atheist from Dawkins to the rest hide behind "the enlightenment" cover and that is all you show the world. "Were just so enlightened and it is the Christians who hate humanity"

We Christians have put it ALL on the table, you atheists haven't. If you cannot see the pros and cons of atheism either intentionally or unintenitionally then you truely haven't thought things thru rendering you irresponsible and dangerous painting you as the terrorist.

I think this is a case of overreading into the text, something frequently levelled against fundamentalists. Every narrative has conflict/rise in plot? The lie is what provides the counter fact that the fruit may in fact be good and not bad. The cause to doubt is the thrust of the narrative. It has nothing to do with God's "image" but with mans choice to trust God or not.

Hate to say it but, I agree with a Theist. I think some atheists make the mistake of calling the bible stupid. Obviously the bible writers can't be that stupid and bad if they got so many people to believe it.

The story reveals the conflict that man now has since self awareness, language and understanding have evolved in our species. Before we evolved into the homo-sapien species, we were innocent animals, decisions driven by instinct instead of understanding. The fruit of the tree of good and evil(knowledge) is representative of our rational thinking development and quest for knowledge. With knowledge came power, this power could be used to help or harm(good or evil). And the questions of "who am I?, how did I get here?, where am I going?, Am I my brother's keeper? have become important.

One problem, where di the laws come from. We cannot have laws without a law giver otherwise we have objective morality and nothing would be right and wrong because you and no one else would have no right to make that claim.

Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer 6 years ago so his son (an atheist) could be saved from God's wrath.

How did I miss this? So is that what this is about? Your father died of cancer, so you think god should be worshipped for that? What's really happening here is your scared of death and you want some mindless comfort. I don't blame you.When things get tough I find myself thinking about my christian days. That feeling of sending off a prayer and thinking 'well, I've got god working on it for me now.' But are you really being helped or putting an imaginary bandage on a real wound?

YES!!!!!! I miss my father terribly but yes and when I told my mother the same thing it gave her so much comfort (can't belive I was afraid to tell her that- didn't give my mom enough credit). from a Christian's perspective it was more than worth the price. If it takes my death for my loved ones to be save. I'd do it.

LOL.....Just the opposite. I am not scared of death anymore. I love life but I long to be with my Father who is GOD. There are times I long to leave this crazy, immoral, unjust world and go to a better place. if it's his will, so be it if it's not then I live for Him each and everyday till my death. That scared argument really doesn't wash.

You never understood Christianity, there is no imaginary bandage. A real Christian knows that praying should fall in line with God's will (the lords prayer- thy kngdom come, thy will be done), he's not a genie and when bad things happen and the world asks, why? real christians hold on to the fact that it was God's will and in the end it was done for his ultimate good of giving God the glory.

Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer 6 years ago so his son (an atheist) could be saved from God's wrath.

How did I miss this? So is that what this is about? Your father died of cancer, so you think god should be worshipped for that? What's really happening here is your scared of death and you want some mindless comfort. I don't blame you.When things get tough I find myself thinking about my christian days. That feeling of sending off a prayer and thinking 'well, I've got god working on it for me now.' But are you really being helped or putting an imaginary bandage on a real wound?

Loc,

Many converted Christians fall to irrational beliefs from a significant emotional event. Deaths of loved ones, rejection by a lover, waking up in an alley, a DUI and waking up in jail, or almost dying from a drug overdose are examples. They turn to religion or God as a new crutch or addiction to deal with the world as they feel they are incapable of dealing with reality on their own. Cadalyst's cause is the death of his father. Depending on the underlying cause these people have for conversion the odds of reaching them with reason may be limited or not possible. I have found those who utilize God as a crutch to overcome addictions are the hardest to reason with as they seem to drift to the Fundy views. In most cases, I leave these people alone as I feel a non-drinking alcoholic that uses God is better than a drunk driving the streets.

Cadalyst it seems may never have understood that all people die and reached for God in a moment of weakness. His statement to Watcher his 2 little girls may have to die to save him for God shows how he has rationalized death as a cause beyond man's abilities. It may be that cancer is beyond man to cure right now, but prevention of accidental deaths certainly are not. Cadalyst however doesn't see it that way as he indicates it is God that drives the time line of man to his own ends which we do not grasp. This same line of thought was used in the Crusades and the Inquisition as justification for murder and mayhem. Cad indicates this idea from his concepts in interpreting the Garden story of Adam and Eve where he reads into the story justifications that aren't really in it. This of course creates a paradox that most Fundy Christians never see. It is the argument of free will versus God's plan. It is of course not possible for lowly man to ever understand God, so we must just accept what he gives us. This is really denying responsibilities for actions by man. Those who claim an "act of God" for their house being flooded in a 'flood plain' or a house destroyed on the beach in Florida from a hurricane are justifying the stupidity they had by building there in the first place. Eventually California or Los Angles will be destroyed by an earthquake and to claim this is an act of God is false. No one in California can claim they don't know they live on a major fault that will eventually slip. Is that God or simply nature?

Where he says:

Cadalyst wrote:

First of all nothing is for us, absolutely nothing, it is all for God's purpose and glory.

~rip~

God uses us for His best purposes.

This shows how he has denied responsibility and has put everything on God. As God has a plan it is for his glory that everything happens and not for us to understand. This way, the believer can now use his belief in God as a crutch and not accept responsibility.

Man that was alot you said there and oh so eloquent but oh so wrong! First of all Psychiatry is an absolute Crock! I believed that as an unbeliver and belive that till this day, analyzing works better on television. In real life, it's conjecture. It's as accurate as horoscopes.

Of course people go to God in time of need, when better, the bible speaks of it all the time. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. The meek and humble shall inherit the earth and not the prideful. Jesus was always slamming the pharasees.

You call it a crutch, it's your right but you must understand one thing Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship.

Oh and if God is in control of everything and knows everything then didn't he see the massacre at VATECH but he chose not to stop it because it was his will. All thru the bible God uses bad situation and shows it leading to his ultimate good and giving him the Glory. This is not made up but in the bible.

Here is an excerpt from Eve's diary which was translated by Mark Twain:

SATURDAY -- I am almost a whole day old, now. I arrived yesterday. That is as it seems to me. And it must be so, for if there was a day-before-yesterday I was not there when it happened, or I should remember it. It could be, of course, that it did happen, and that I was not noticing. Very well; I will be very watchful now, and if any day-before-yesterdays happen I will make a note of it. It will be best to start right and not let the record get confused, for some instinct tells me that these details are going to be important to the historian some day.

MONDAY -- This new creature with the long hair is a good deal in the way. It is always hanging around and following me about. I don't like this; I am not used to company. I wish it would stay with the other animals. . . . Cloudy today, wind in the east; think we shall have rain. . . . WE? Where did I get that word-the new creature uses it.

Jesus called Peter Satan. Paul is the anti christ, and Cadalyst is a Pauline Dogmist, an Idol worshiper, who thinks his sense of awe is special.

Now come on does that make any logical sense you just said, Where is the rational thinking you atheist so profess to show. I have lived in three countries and I have been giving one speeding ticket, no trouble with the law anywhere, wouldn't even harm a fly and I am a terrorist?

You athiest are intentionally hiding the truth at least Frederich Nietzche had the courage to show the dark side of atheism but you atheist from Dawkins to the rest hide behind "the enlightenment" cover and that is all you show the world. "Were just so enlightened and it is the Christians who hate humanity"

We Christians have put it ALL on the table, you atheists haven't. If you cannot see the pros and cons of atheism either intentionally or unintenitionally then you truely haven't thought things thru rendering you irresponsible and dangerous painting you as the terrorist.

Cpt Kirk - "what's the problem with so many of my earthlings?"

Spock - "obviously their unhealthy idol worship of god of abraham stereotypes, it's most illogical. The indoctrination of your atheist born children is most sad, to say the least. A form of "terrorism", I think is an earth word you can relate and logically apply Cpt. .... Your evolutionary on going higher sense of understanding Dogma and unified world education is the only hope I can see for your race. "

Hate to say it but, I agree with a Theist. I think some atheists make the mistake of calling the bible stupid. Obviously the bible writers can't be that stupid and bad if they got so many people to believe it.

EXC, do you realise how sheep-like people were when this shit got started? Just cos a book becomes popular, doesn't mean it's any more valid.

It's a stupid, contradictory peice of utter shit, with the occasional gem stolen from ancient stories that tell a good tale.

And don't get me started on the koran......

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself?- Ricky Gervais

So, Cad, how about providing evidence to support your arguments? You clearly believe that the Bible's testimony is a literal retelling of history. So? Where's the evidence to suggest that the Earth was created in under a week? Where's the evidence it's just a few thousand years old? Where's the evidence that Yahweh exists? Where's the evidence Jesus was here?

We'll start with those for now.

ah! yes the evidence question. The funny thing is I see evidence all around me, the evolution "theory" doesn't fly me even if I wasn't a Christian because no matter how you cut it, slice it at the end of the day you atheist still have to prove that something came from nothing gravity, physics etc... all just came together.

You can laugh at me but I am sorry if you can't see how your belief is suspect as well.

Thanks Cad, but we are already laughing at you, you sound like a completely deluded tit. Lots of people on here have been in that state, but they're all better now. Try it, you'll like it.

How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself?- Ricky Gervais

First off, if the snake is Satan when and where did he fall from God, please cite chapter and verse.

I believe Satan and all the angels were created within the six days of creation thus the rebellion was during that time as well.

You have just introduced another belief without any proof! This is not based on anything in Genesis or the OT as it's not there and you know it.

Cadalyst wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Second, please indicate where in the Bible Satan ever killed anyone, please cite chapter and verse. God however has blood in nearly every chapter on his hands.

For a studied catholic, that really is a weak question. God is always in control. We are sinful creatures therefore we deserve the penalty which is death. As much nonsense as man has done since our very existence who are we to argue against God's standards

Weak question, why because you know it's true? I do not accept your assertion that we are sinful creatures. In order to sin, you have to have your God construct, which is a human creation no more.

Cadalyst wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Third, if Satan is so evil and cannot look upon God please explain Job.

Are you sure you studied the bible? who said satan was in heaven, that is a misconception. God cannot stand sin so satan cannot and does not rome around the throne

Perhaps you need to remove your rose colored glasses and turn on a fan to blow some of the smoke out of your room so you can read Job 1:6-7 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan came also among them. 7. And the Lord said to Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking up and down in it. " Also Job 1:12 "....and Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." And see Job 2:1-2 and v7.

These verses seem to indicate that Satan was in the presence of the Lord among other angels called 'sons of God' where they presented themselves as if to a king on a throne.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Fourth, claiming what you do as real in your interpretation of Genesis is dishonest, please detail where you got:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

1-"they never experienced right and wrong before but God placed the laws in their hearts." Cite chapter and verse where God claims this or retract it.

Cadalyst wrote:

God programmed the laws when he created them (not it doesn't say that in genesis- but it only makes sense since in Corinthians I believe where it says the laws were placed in all mens hearts and I belive Adam and Eve would qualify) but it didn't kick in until they committed their first sin, they had no understanding of sin until they were told not to eat of the tree in which they disobeyed and experienced sin for the first time

Another assertion of unsupported belief. I'm pretty sure Paul didn't exist at the time of Adam & Eve so his writing is only his interpretation.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

2-"God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world." Please cite chapter and verse where God claims this or retract it.

Cadalyst wrote:

Isn't it obvious, if it's God's preordained plan he knows the future till the end of time, he knew the 9-11 happened but he still let it happen because it was his will. everything I said there is feasilble

No, its not obvious, that's why I asked for proof of your wild claim.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

3-"Adam and Eve's decision results in each and every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin." Not according to the Jews who claim man is born a (pure soul and can return it to God the same way. Please cite chapter and verse or retract.)

Cadalyst wrote:

-I don't even know what that means

The bible is full of exmaples of the sinful nature. It's funny parents are always buying books teaching how to make their kids be good but I don't see them buying books teaching kids to be bad, it is not needed, we are sinful from the day of birth.

The Jews do not agree with Christians that man is born with a sinful nature.

And : http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm which should be particularly useful to you as you exhibit a lack of knowledge of the religion which was used for your derived beliefs.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

4-"We all have a choice. God doesn't want lemmings. He wants us to come to him willingly ultimately giving God the glory." Please cite where God says he does not want lemmings.

Cadalyst wrote:

You want a verse on God giving man free will? It's obvious, even you atheist mention it and laugh at it. God gave us free will for a reason.

I was actually making a smart remark unless you really know of a verse where God says he didn't want us to be lemmings.

Cadalyst wrote:

First off you were a catholic enoughsaid, if I was one I would assuredly still be an atheist.

I am not at my computer so I can't give you chapter and verse but that that is what I read, studied and was taught. Scripture supports scripture, you just can't cite chapter and verse. Atheists ask how were the old testament saints before Jesus arrived on the scene? because the name Jesus is not mentioned in the old testament but God promised Adam he will send the perfect sacrifice and we see that context in the new testament as well leading us to the truth that the perfect sacrifice was Jesus.

If you think I am being dishonest that's your right but I am being truthful to what I have studied.

So we have established that you are a form of protestant fundamentalist. Actually I was raised as a Lutheran and went to 10 years of parochial school. My mother was once a Lutheran school teacher. I became Catholic at 19 and went to a Jesuit University for my graduate degree. This makes me an ex-Protestant relapsed Catholic heretic skeptic. Making an assumption because I said I was once Catholic is typical of the rest of your conjecture you have put forth.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

Personally I believe my father had to die of cancer 6 years ago so his son (an atheist) could be saved from God's wrath.

How did I miss this? So is that what this is about? Your father died of cancer, so you think god should be worshipped for that? What's really happening here is your scared of death and you want some mindless comfort. I don't blame you.When things get tough I find myself thinking about my christian days. That feeling of sending off a prayer and thinking 'well, I've got god working on it for me now.' But are you really being helped or putting an imaginary bandage on a real wound?

Loc,

Many converted Christians fall to irrational beliefs from a significant emotional event. Deaths of loved ones, rejection by a lover, waking up in an alley, a DUI and waking up in jail, or almost dying from a drug overdose are examples. They turn to religion or God as a new crutch or addiction to deal with the world as they feel they are incapable of dealing with reality on their own. Cadalyst's cause is the death of his father. Depending on the underlying cause these people have for conversion the odds of reaching them with reason may be limited or not possible. I have found those who utilize God as a crutch to overcome addictions are the hardest to reason with as they seem to drift to the Fundy views. In most cases, I leave these people alone as I feel a non-drinking alcoholic that uses God is better than a drunk driving the streets.

Cadalyst it seems may never have understood that all people die and reached for God in a moment of weakness. His statement to Watcher his 2 little girls may have to die to save him for God shows how he has rationalized death as a cause beyond man's abilities. It may be that cancer is beyond man to cure right now, but prevention of accidental deaths certainly are not. Cadalyst however doesn't see it that way as he indicates it is God that drives the time line of man to his own ends which we do not grasp. This same line of thought was used in the Crusades and the Inquisition as justification for murder and mayhem. Cad indicates this idea from his concepts in interpreting the Garden story of Adam and Eve where he reads into the story justifications that aren't really in it. This of course creates a paradox that most Fundy Christians never see. It is the argument of free will versus God's plan. It is of course not possible for lowly man to ever understand God, so we must just accept what he gives us. This is really denying responsibilities for actions by man. Those who claim an "act of God" for their house being flooded in a 'flood plain' or a house destroyed on the beach in Florida from a hurricane are justifying the stupidity they had by building there in the first place. Eventually California or Los Angles will be destroyed by an earthquake and to claim this is an act of God is false. No one in California can claim they don't know they live on a major fault that will eventually slip. Is that God or simply nature?

Where he says:

Cadalyst wrote:

First of all nothing is for us, absolutely nothing, it is all for God's purpose and glory.

~rip~

God uses us for His best purposes.

This shows how he has denied responsibility and has put everything on God. As God has a plan it is for his glory that everything happens and not for us to understand. This way, the believer can now use his belief in God as a crutch and not accept responsibility.

Man that was alot you said there and oh so eloquent but oh so wrong! First of all Psychiatry is an absolute Crock! I believed that as an unbeliver and belive that till this day, analyzing works better on television. In real life, it's conjecture. It's as accurate as horoscopes.

Of course people go to God in time of need, when better, the bible speaks of it all the time. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. The meek and humble shall inherit the earth and not the prideful. Jesus was always slamming the pharasees.

You call it a crutch, it's your right but you must understand one thing Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship.

Oh and if God is in control of everything and knows everything then didn't he see the massacre at VATECH but he chose not to stop it because it was his will. All thru the bible God uses bad situation and shows it leading to his ultimate good and giving him the Glory. This is not made up but in the bible.

Exactly where did I invoke psychiatry? A significant emotional event is a well know concept, see:

Your comments about psychiatry should enable you to join L Ron Hubbard's church of Scientology with Tom Cruise.

People go to God, booze, drugs, and other obsessions to limp their way through life when they are too weak minded to deal with reality on their own.

If your God saw VATECH and all the other evil he is a evil cruel monster. As he claims himself he bears the responsibility of everything as in Isaiah 45:7, " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Confession accepted, God is Evil.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.