Duma

I do not often edit posts but this post is just full of lies. The Zara/7summits prices consist about 50% of park fees, the rest (several hundred dollars per client) is for guides, porters etc. It's a shame that people cannot respect an open discussion without trying to paint a black picture about competitors.

What this person says in this post is true for budget companies though, so I will let it stay here as a warning, but it is not true for 7summits/Zara.

And the companies that offer the shortest trips cause the most deaths as the altitude kills most. Mostly these are budget outfitters. There is no relation between the price and the risk, just between the length and the risk.

Now please take your lies elsewhere.

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Hi. I have been reading the posts about Zara and just needed to say something. I am a safari guide frome Tanzania and I know most of the companies very well. Unfortunatly Zara is not one of the good ones. Every company pays the same gov. fee to climg the mountain and go on safari. Zara's prices are often barely $20-50 above these cost for the entire trip. Tis means $20-50 has to cover porter's saleries, guides' salaries, food for the clients and staff, equipment, transfers, hotel room for 2 nights, and anything else they say is included. So most often the poters are working only on tip, the guides are paid very poorly, and the guides are poorly trained and unexperienced. No matter how you look at it, when climbing Kilimanjaro, you get what you pay for. Unfortunatly because of corruption in Tanzania there is no way to see any companies record of deaths on Kilimanjaro, but I know that the companies that offer the cheapest trip have the most deaths! Duma

[edit by 7summits] By the way, this 'safari guide from Tanzania' is posting using an IP address/internet connection from Midwest Wireless Holdings LLC SPRINTLINK in the US.... Now that is a bit strange.. Wonder which Kili companies are using the same connection..[/edit]

I've just returned from 6 weeks in Tanzania and thought that, with my proximity to the accident, I should lend a post. On the morning of the climb, my party and I were in the crater camp site preparing for a summit hike. Just one day before, we had been camped in Arrow Glacier. It was quite unnerving to know that while we camped, an avalanche was taking the lives of fellow climbers. Much condolences and sympathies to the climbers and the families. On another quick note, I climbed with Zara and their services were top-notch. Just wanted to set that straight. Take care.

Roy Nirschel

The facts about the tragic death of the climbers on the Western Breach (and, perhaps a porter who was injured or killed) remain a bit of a mystery.

Understandably (I suppose) the Tanzanian authorities do not want all the details (or many) regarding the safety of clmbing one of the highest mountains of the world to be revealed - as it would impact on revenue. Frankly, no city or place touts its downside as any review of travel books (absent Lonely Planet type guides0.

Regarding "accidents"; many sources indicate that the trekkers on the Western Breach who died above Arrow Glacier should have been above the point where the tragic accident occurred. Of course, this is unknowable fully but the reprot is that the late start by the firms and trek had the trekkers below the point where they should have been when the rock slide occurred. Of course, the moutnain kills 10 or more people a year - according to some sources more and at those altitudes everything is a challenge.

Regarding good firms or not: I saw some horror shows on the mountain while descending (with Tusker which Irecommend for safety and competence) including very ill trekkers confroting sleeping guides who were disinterested, bad equipment, poorly dressed porters, etc. I had heard many negative comments about Zara while in Tanzania but they apparently are well connected in the local power structure and hav ethe support of many/some of their clients.

More broardly - be preapred, slow down, take control of YOUR trek and be aware. life is precious and it isnt a matter (and should not be) of life and death to make it Uhuru but it is a high when you do!

Hello Roy,thanks; it depends on the clients: how afast are they going, can tehy get ready quick enough in the morning. All our guides know to start very early, even when sleeping in the crater, but they cannot take a person who is half dressed.

Normally the high priced outfitters like Tusker are really good of course. Unfortunately, due to their 'quality (expensive)' image, they attract not only people thinking they pay more for safety and definitely pay for luxury which is fine, but also a lot of incompetent climbers with little experience, just a lot of money and that does not make up for it. I would not want to be in a team that has inexperienced people relying on oxygen to get to Kili's summit..

Cheers,Harry

« Last Edit: Feb 21 2006, 13:35 by 7summits »

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"He who climbs upon the highest mountains laughs at all tragedies, real or imaginary." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

reading the posts above makes me wonder. shouldnt we (the climbers) take it upon ourselves to be physically and mentally prepared for the trek up Kili? i mean, no doubt it does not require technical equipment to go up to the summit. but, it is a tall mountain, and not a like a trip to the neighbourhood hill/park.

if you have to rely on oxygen to get to Kili's summit, then perhaps you are not in good shape to trek up the mountain.

I am the managing partner of the Kiliwarriors and visit here often to learn more about climbing the other summits - which I plan to do after another 3 or 4 Kili ascents later this year! As it stands I will probably choose a Harry expedition (hoping for an invitatation starting with a 20,000 footer!)

On Kilimanjaro, however, things are a bit different as it is a trekking (not climbing) experience and I just want to set the record straight about safety, fitness and costs from our point of view!

We do carry oxygen, Gamow bag, oximeters and an AED on every climb that overnight at 18,500ft near the crater rim. For good reason - and not for marketing reasons as some of the earlier posts here may suggest.

Heart failure is one of the dangers on Kili. Even very fit marathon runners have perished due to heart attacks (a 57-year South African in 2004 for example). An AED with supplemental oxygen will at least provide some hope for recovery when the the first few minutes are crucial. Modern AEDs are designed for use by the untrained public but even so our guides have been trained to use it anyway. I think that a few years from now these devices will be common on Kili, in safari vehicles and elsewhere.

This is particularly important for older tourists above the age of 60. And our clients are getting older each year with several 70-year olds in 2006.

I agree that using oxygen as a booster is wrong. We have a strict policy against it - in fact we've only administered oxygen once in 3 years (recently to an experienced porter who had breathing problems near Barranco due to an unknown infection). Our oxygen is reserved for serious problems such as heart failures.

We've used our Gamow bag twice in 3 years at the Crater Camp - both with clients from budget companies who go serious AMS in the middle of the night after climbing too fast to 18,500ft. Our guides were called to help and the decisions were made to use the Gamow bag instead of carrying the clients to Stella Point (higher altitude) due to the serious degree of AMS. An hour or so later the climbers calmed down and we helped carry them down to Barafu. Both clients recovered and felt that the Gamow Bag saved their lives. Maybe it did, maybe they would've surivived being carried for 40 minutes and longer in the dark of night with snow falling and biting cold and in the midst of panic. We feel the Gamow bag is necessary if you sleep at the Crater camp - but not needed elsewhere.

Oximeters are fun to use and clients enjoy comparing their readings! We use oximeters only to confirm what our guides already know - they can see when someone is not acclimatizing well and oximeters may be a visual way to help explain that a client needs to drink more water or eat more and so on! An oximeter can never replace the knowledge of a trained guide. We've had bad readings from strong guides and porters and good readings from clients who were visibly suffering from AMS symptoms.

The last point is about climb costs. While it is true that equipment such as Trango 4 tents and AEDs cost more, some companies charge more simply because they pay more! We are one of those! Our junior porters earn around $100 per climb and we pay incentives to use our CMCs to stop digging holes for waste at the high camps. Senior porters and camp crew earn more and all receive all the royalties of Kilimanjaro DVDs filmed by me.

Our guides earn a percentage of the income for each climb - in 2006 this has exceeded $600 on several climbs! While I cannot speak for other companies, higher climb costs don't necessarily translate to ripoffs as some earlier posts may suggest! Fortunaly there are many outfitters with rates to suit all budgets!

It will be nice if all outfitters start to post their porter and guide salaries on their websites! We do it and maybe Harry can do the same - let's lead the way to improve the lives of our mountain teams.

But I can say I used Zara in December 2003 to climb Kilimanjaro and then a 3 day Safari. The service and safety were excellent on both the climb and Safari.

I don't normally eat breakfast. But they served us a big breakfast. I ate several servings of "cream of wheat", and I was full. Then came the eggs and more. I could not eat that. When the guide heard from the meal server that I was not eating breakfast, he came over to me and asked how I was feeling (he thought I had a loss of appetite, due to altitude). I assured him I was fine. The point here is they were very concerned about the climbers.

All big mountains have big risks. We, as climbers, need to be prepared ourselves, so as not to give mountaineering a bad name.

We feel the Gamow bag is necessary if you sleep at the Crater camp - but not needed elsewhere.

Eben

Echoing sdoownek's words...your reply was very well composed but I do not agree with the above quote. It seems to me that if you acclimate properly, you should not need to have a Gamow bag. If you are going to spend the night in the Crater camp, (which I will be doing in 2007) it is imperative that you have acclimated prior to sleeping at that altitude. I plan on climbing several peaks over 14,000 feet within several months of climbing Kili. And I will do a 9 day climb to ensure that I am properly acclimated. Of course, whenever someone shows signs of AMS, the need to go to a lower altitude is imperative. That is why "great" guides are so important. They can recognize the symtoms when a client may not. But I can see the need for a Gamow bag if you have any "heart condition" or if over a certain age. Maybe 60 or so. And if someone wants to pay the extra money to have the availability of a Gamow bag, it certainly can't hurt!

MC

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"I go to the mountains for there I find higher ground." m.c. reinhardt

Yes, if one looks at our statistics at the Crater Camp a strong argument can be made that we don't need a Gamow bag - we have not used it with any of our own clients! But it only adds $150 to the costs (per trip, not per person) and we will never forgive ourselves for not having it when we do need it for some unexpected reason.

Unexpected events do happen at the Crater camp. Despite taking all the precautions such as enough time on the mountain (in our case 6 nights before we reach Crater Camp), with sensisible daily altitude gains (about 2000ft per day), good food and water, slow pace, constant monitoring and such, every year a few clients still have to be evacuated to a lower camp during the night. In our case, the indications of AMS (and also chest pains/breathing problems) were mild enough so we could safely walk the clients to Stella Point then up and down to Barafu and beyond. A Gamow bag was not needed and we hope to never use it!

Unfortunately many budget outfitters do end up at the Crater camp completely underequipped, undermanned and unprepared with clients that show very visible signs of AMS or worse - there guides and/or porters have AMS!We see this almost on a weekly basis! I would love to post the names of some of these outfitters (you may be surprised) but that's not my purpose here!

Ourselves and a few other outfitters carry Gamow bags as an extra layer of safety not just for our own clients but also to help those poor clients who are (mis)guided to the Crater Camp when they really should not be there!

Ourselves and a few other outfitters carry Gamow bags as an extra layer of safety not just for our own clients but also to help those poor clients who are (mis)guided to the Crater Camp when they really should not be there!

Hi Eben

I guess the bottom line is that there will always be clients who are either misguided or just thinking that they are above the dangers of climbing at high altitude. And they can find themselves overnight at the Crater Camp unprepared. So, the fact that your outfitter and a few others do carry the Gamow bags is a good thing and could save lives. (And possibly has already saved lives!)

Good luck on your next climb (whichever of the remaining 6 summits you choose.) Happy climbing always!

MC

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"I go to the mountains for there I find higher ground." m.c. reinhardt

Climbing is dangerous. That's fact, one that we all know. It could be said that it's the most un-natural of natural inclinations that we humans have. The act invokes a certain level of fear. If not fear, at least some manner of trepidation. When it doesn't, you tend to, eh, die. Some call this fear "respect"

The issue that I've just commented on can be reduced to education. Without education, we as a species have failed. The issue I have with gamow bags and o2 on Kili is simply that it's not needed, as long as you educate yourself about what you're doing. If you leave Boston, fly to Kili, jump off the plane, and run up the mountain in 12 hours, yes, you're going to have problems. But who among us doesn't know that this is a bad idea? And should those problems be "fixed" by solving the symptoms, or the root problem?

Kili is often the first mountain that people climb. As such the guides there have an ethical responsibility to educate their clients. Experience is more than simply placing one foot in front of another.

That's part of the problem with some commercial guiding services--they accept clients based on the size of their wallets, not on their experience or knowledge, and are totally unwilling to educate them once on the mountain.

OK, so all that said, I despise the fact that there are outfitters out there that are playing into, nay, actively promoting, fear and poor education onto climbers that are unprepared for what they're getting into. That leads into a discussion about greed and materialism that's not exactly on topic. I'll save that for later.

Is it a good thing that somebody has extra medical gear on the mountain? Yes, and I'm glad that this company does it. Perhaps one day they'll save somebody from dying. But, one can always descend. You don't have multiple hanging belays to deal with to get somebody to a lower altitude. You walk downhill. What would impress me much more is if this company were to carry the gear, and not use it as a marketing tool. The bag is what, 15lbs? Why not carry it and use it if needed, but not make a big deal about it? Having the items available for use for safety is different that having them for marketing purposes.

Nevertheless, getting a patient to a lower altitude is really the only solution; anything else is a short-term fix. Sort of like using O2. Great high, but what the hell happens when you come off of it? That's right, boys and girls, it's called a crashnburn. That's exponentially more dangerous than making you feel good by taking a hit off a bottle. I don't know how the guide services on Kili distribute O2, if it's just something you suck on at camp at night, or if you actually carry a bottle. Hint: If you're using o2 set to .25l/hr, you're really doing nothing but carrying extra weight. Either way, it's not really needed. (at least in my opinion.....)

If we continue the logic path that being laid out, next we'll all need overstuffed full suits, 12pt crampons on plastic boots, diamox, and dex shots. For going to 5900 meters? Not so much.

i agree with some of the postings on educating the clients. the clients need to know their own limits and know when to turn back. the problem is, having paid in some instances large sums of money, these clients dont want to turn back unless they reach the summit.

to me, its a simple thing. even if i have paid a lot of money, and even if the mountain is only 4000m, as long as i dont feel good, i slow down and if necessary, turn back. its just not worth risking one's life for that moment of glory. just retreat, and live to fight another day.

I'm planning on climbing this year and my research has been frustrating when trying to determine how dangerous the Western Breach is. The IMAX movie has old ladies and infants climbing it, while some companies have steered me away from it, saying it is just too dangerous. But given that the international companies recommend it, I figured it can't be THAT dangerous if fat Americans (I'm American, so don't get sensitive to that comment, although not fat ) are being led on this route. But after collecting as much info as I could and reading people's blogs and looking at photos, I'm positive that I'll do the Lemosho/WB route. WB and crater camp is the best part of the climb, isn't it?

Lastly, on the Zara website and the Kiliwarriors website, both report that the Western Breach is closed. What's the truth here? Open or closed?

I am new to this forum. I have just returned from Kilimanjaro. I work occasionally as a guide/tourleader and cooperate with Zara.

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Lastly, on the Zara website and the Kiliwarriors website, both report that the Western Breach is closed. What's the truth here? Open or closed?

The Western Breach Route is closed in the sense that you have to apply specifically for a permission to climb. You will most likely get the permission, but you will have to sign for taking the risk.

As for the discussion of Gamow bags and oxygen..... We bring both. But it is NOT to bring clients to the summit. We bring the equipment for emergency and we follow the politics: If you need oxygen, you have a serious reaction, and you have to go down. Going down when having a serious reaction or being seriously ill can be a delicate matter, and the oxygen and gamowbag can be very helpful.This February we used the oxygen twice. One of our porters got very sick with pulmunary oedema. He had oxygen and medication and was helped down by four porters. He had proper medical aid in Moshi and he has recovered.When I summited with my group Feb 15th an american client from another group accidently crashed into the crater - just 10 minutes from Uhuru Peak. He was severely injured and I stayed with him at the summit for hours with his guide, my guide and his friend. He was unconscious and he was a heavy man. With the help from 3 other guides we just managed to move him to Stella Point, waiting for the rescue team. He had oxygen to help his breathing and cope with the altitude.The rescue team arrived very late and only managed to bring him through Mweka Camp at 2 at night.

All together, I was guite happy to bring the oxygen, and I will certainly do it again.

Helle

NB - If anyone out there happens to know what became of the american, I would be grateful to know.

I know you said that you wanted to climb Kili this year and you want to go via the western breach route. I am doing a 9 day climb via the Lemosho/Breach route next year. I am leaning with June 2007 but I am considering sometime around Jan. 2007. I would like to plan my summit during a full moon. JK is also definitely doing Kili and we are currently trying to work out simultaneous dates. (See "partners needed for Kilimanjaro" http://7summits.com/forum/index.php?topic=1008.0 - scroll down toward bottom of page.) If you would like to consider going next year instead of this year, let me know.

MC

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"I go to the mountains for there I find higher ground." m.c. reinhardt

Have a crack at Little Meru and Mt Meru you wont regret it. You will see Kili when climbing and then when you are on Kili and people point out Mt Meru you will be able to share you stories of the climb with them )Lots of people over look Mt MeruIf you are staying at Arusha, it has Mt Meru as its backdrop bigger than life.Recommend the journey down by shuttle bus from Nairobi via Namanga border also its a real eye opener.