NU Viability Ranking

I'd also like to chime in on the argument about Absol. I think it should be moved down to A, not because I think it is ineffective by any means, but primarily because I think it doesn't really fit into the description of the S-class.

"Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."

Yes, Absol is excellent at killing things. However, it really doesn't seem like it fits the description of an S-class pokemon when you look at the third and fourth sentences: "their use has low risk involved." Absol has absolutely atrocious defenses, very unimpressive speed, and its standard set has several moves whose functioning depends entirely on mind games. If you choose wrong, you could be outsped and OHKO'd by a Twineedle from a Beedrill. Yes, that is an an extreme and fairly stupid example, but it goes to show how risky using Absol can be.

Moderator

Not keeping Absol in S-tier would just be a vile injustice. Sure, it's STAB Sucker Punch is not the most reliable thing around, but at least it's at a speed tier where it would very much more often than not make well-exceptional use for it (or even force certain matchups to a mindgame), since it allows Absol to check some of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in the tier, such as Ludicolo, Cincinno, Braviary, and many more. Also, it's substantial coverage with variety of options such as Night Slash, Superpower, Pursuit, Psycho Cut not only makes it one of the most useful offensive Pokemon to ever grace the BW/BW2 NU metagame, but also gives it a variety of options of check and break through many other important threats. With a massive Attack stat and said coverage, frailty usually doesn't mean much when almost nothing would like to take a hit from it themselves, while also having to worry about the nature of Sucker Punch. This is what makes it extremely hard to counter, the reason why it can single-handily win games at times, and evidently, allows it to function as a threat to just about ANY team. Another important reason as to why it implements its way into the S-rank because it requires little to no support to function this well and it's one of the greatest answers to prominent offensive sweepers and dominant Psychic types that rampant the tier today.

All of that are centralizing and game-changing factors in many battles, and with Absol being capable of performing all of those roles by itself, there is absolutely no reason for it to not be in S-rank.

Also, if anyone is going to post about a particular Pokemon, or even argue about one, I'm going to re-quote something that has already been posted by user DTC himself.

"1.) If you have not used a Pokemon, do not comment on its tiering.

2.) The tier definitions are very rough and should not be used as a strict guideline as to what tier a Pokemon should be."

With a massive Attack stat and said coverage, frailty usually doesn't mean much when almost nothing would like to take a hit from it themselves, while also having to worry about the nature of Sucker Punch. This is what makes it extremely hard to counter, the reason why it can single-handily win games at times, and evidently, allows it to function as a threat to just about ANY team. Another important reason as to why it implements its way into the S-rank because it requires little to no support to function this well and it's one of the greatest answers to prominent offensive sweepers and dominant Psychic types that rampant the tier today.

All of that are centralizing and game-changing factors in many battles, and with Absol being capable of performing all of those roles by itself, there is absolutely no reason for it to not be in S-rank.

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Absol's coverage is Dark / Fighting / Psychic.

Its Dark moves are either unreliable (Sucker Punch) or weak (neither Sucker Punch nor Night Slash reach 100 BP, let alone 90 BP). As I've said before, it's only a hard-hitting pokemon when its attack is boosted and when it's hitting a frail pokemon.

Its Fighting type move of choice is Superpower. On top of being an unreliable attacking option due to the recoil effect, Absol doesn't even receive STAB on SP.

And its Psychic coverage option is Psycho Cut, which not only has a pitiful base power but also does not receive STAB.

Absol does get access to Megahorn, which is a fantastic move for it to have (it has noticeably more raw power than STAB Night Slash), but Megahorn has shaky accuracy and is therefore unreliable.

Absol is too slow to ignore its frailty and too frail to ignore its poor speed. It's not a threat to "ANY" team, only offensive teams with a weakness to priority or teams with a gaping Dark weakness, and Absol certainly doesn't have a monopoly on Dark types that can pursuit trap Psychic types.

If Absol had base 85 speed and Night Slash had 100 BP, it'd be a different story. As it is, Absol is an incredibly situational pokemon with sub-par offenses in many situations, terrible defenses and disappointing speed. It has its uses in revenge killing faster sweepers like Ludicolo and Braviary after they've been weakened as well as picking off choice-locked pokemon, but outside of that its utility is limited and it often takes a back seat when I use it on my teams.

If I was on the tiering council I'd go as far as making Absol B-Rank, but seeing as he's S-Rank currently I don't see that happening any time soon.

NU Co-Leader

absol is in no way incredibly situational, nor weak... how is superpower unreliable when you ohko nearly all of its targets anyway? yes, i understand that you have to actually predict to use sucker punch properly (what a notion!) but how can you make out the strongest priority move in the game to be a negative thing? how the fuck do you justify saying that it's not a threat to any team? dark + fighting is near perfect coverage, btw - you don't need psycho cut nor megahorn to hit anything else, bar hitting a few threats harder.

stop posting in this thread with overexaggerated and flawed arguments without any basis or i will infract you. if you want to smarten up and actually be logical about this (adding a few actually metagame-relevant calculations would be a good start!) that's cool. i don't even mind an argument for a rank absol, but you provide basically no actual evidence. "it's too weak" isn't an argument when you don't actually have any examples (and how in the world can you get off with saying that a decent STAB move off of 130 base attack is weak?).

Stop posting in this thread with overexaggerated and flawed arguments without any basis or I will violate you. If you want to smarten up and actually be logical about this (adding a few actually metagame-relevant calculations would be a good start!) that's cool. I don't even mind an argument for a rank absol, but you provide basically no actual evidence. "It's too weak" isn't an argument when you don't actually have any examples (and how in the world can you get off with saying that a decent STAB move off of 130 base attack is weak?).Weak when compared to Braviary or Ludicolo or Zangoose or Emboar or even Samurott. Or Relicanth.

Absol packs a punch against offensive pokemon, sure, but he's seriously lacklustre at breaking down walls. Of course that's not his job, his job is to use the prediction-heavy and obvious Sucker Punch to take out fast offensive threats. That's an important role, to be sure, but it shouldn't make a pokemon S-Rank. An S-Rank pokemon needs to be able to go on a rampage through an opponents' team (like Zangoose or Ludicolo) or be able to consistently perform its' role with little to no risk (Regirock), or wall the opponent without worrying about becoming setup fodder (Musharna... Mostly).

As I've said before, Absol doesn't have the speed or the raw power to sweep teams, it relies on prediction to take out opponents and is too frail to take a hit if you miss predict. It may have great neutral coverage, but Superpower is only good for two hits, three tops. It's true that Dark / Fighting gives fantastic neutral coverage, but SPower and SPunch are just too easy to play around.

Its prowess at removing, or at least halting, faster sweepers and its' ability to hit the Psychic, Normal and Rock types in the NU tier for heavy damage are very welcome, but Absol is still too situational and too risky to be S-Rank. If Night Slash had 100 BP, or if Sucker Punch was a Dark typed Extremespeed, or if Superpower was Close Combat things might be different, but as it stands I vote that Absol is A-Rank.

OK I don't normally post in these threads but...in what way are those calcs relevant? Listing a bunch of walls it can't OHKO (I could do the exact same for any Pokemon in NU) and then listing a bunch of its checks? Of course it's not going to OHKO Braviary and Kangaskhan, they are not frail threats. By just throwing these random calcs out I could make an argument for Ludicolo to be A-rank (can't beat Lickilicky or other Ludicolo, won't OHKO Amoonguss, move to A-rank pls) or even Zangoose (gets OHKOed by Regirock Drain Punch and loses to Haunter, move to A-rank). You completely ignore the huge majority of things Absol does actually revenge kill, and the one time you do provide a relevant calc (Ludicolo) it doesn't even back up your argument.

shit that is relevant(Move your mouse to reveal the content)shit that is relevant (open)shit that is relevant (close)

I seriously suggest you carefully consider your next few posts i.e. stop posting irrelevant information to back up a claim

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I did post relevant information to my claim. My claim is that Absol can't break through walls and that it can't sweep through teams the way an S-Rank pokemon should be able too. At least, not so long as your opponent has more than two pokemon left.

Absol doesn't apply the sort of pressure to your opponent that an S-Rank pokemon should. It's slow, it's frail and it's main selling point can be played around easily (up until the late game). So what if it can outspeed and take out other frail pokemon? That makes it about as good as any other revenge killer in the game.

And as far as the calculations that I posted being irrelevant, they are exactly the calculations that I'm talking about. Absol can only OHKO frail threats. I included the Ludicolo calc to show that I'm aware of what Absol's role is. Alternatively, the next time I do damage calcs I could just post a bunch of calculations that contradict the point I'm making, if that makes you happier.

The point is this - you are completely ignoring everything Absol does well and focusing purely on the fact it cannot OHKO every single Pokemon in the tier, and cannot break through Gurdurr / Regirock. By applying the same logic to other S-ranked Pokemon, I could easily make a case for them being A-rank, despite it obviously being nonsense (see Ludicolo and Zangoose examples in my previous post). Absol is among the very best revenge killers, not simply "about as good", as it can bypass any speed boost with the strongest priority move in the game. Zangoose is frail and can be played around easily if you know what you're doing, should we move it down too? These kind of arguments with no basis are just not good enough.

I'd like to bring up the subject of Beheeyem. I notice that it's nowhere on your tier list.

I understand that its potential is severely weakened by Stealth Rock and other entry hazards, as it needs Sash to function effectively. However, this problem can be solved by simply using it as a sort of suicide lead/glass cannon, with the intent of KOing as many enemy Pokemon as it can before it faints, nothing more, nothing less.

Looking at your descriptors, it seems that A Rank -

"Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits."

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seems about right for Beheeyem, or at the very least the Trick Room/Nasty Plot variant. Setup leads, common in any meta, just leave Beheeyem time to TR and NP. After that, it's almost a guaranteed KO to any Pokemon - I can't think of a single Pokemon that resists both Psychic and Electric (that is, Psychic/Thunderbolt coverage) that is in NU (even Magneton is RU).

So, in short, A Rank for Beheeyem, maybe B, but not the "Everything else" category of E.

P.S. Don't get at me about this being my 1st post, I've been on the server for a decent amount of time, it's just my first time on the forums.

Moderator

The point is this - you are completely ignoring everything Absol does well...

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No, the point is that everything that Absol does well isn't good enough for it to be S-Rank. I'm sick of going around in circles with this argument. I'm not saying that Absol is a poor choice of pokemon to be used on an NU team. I'm saying that Absol doesn't cut it as an S-Rank pokemon.

I say S and A rank are getting kind of crowded. 9 pokes in S may be a touch on the high side. Also, Gurrdurr really is unnessecary in A Rank, as it is not powerful enough to break through other pokes.

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Gurdurr is one of the best bulky sweepers in the tier. It's ability to beat nearly every single physical attacker one-on-one solidifies it's position in A Rank. I don't understand why you think it's weak since it has an above average Attack stat which can be boosted by either Bulk Up or Guts. Alomomola and Amoonguss both have trouble taking it's hits after a couple of boosts. On the other hand, very little Pokemon in the tier can actually OHKO Gurdurr; a burned Swellow only has forty-percent chance to do so, which is pretty amazing since Gurdurr doesn't even run EVs in Defense. If you lack a bulky Psychic or Poison-type, you're automatically weak to Gurdurr.

Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to agree with Doron about absol for A, I never really agreed with it going S tier but didn't feel like posting until now.

The thing with absol is it's a revenge killer and only a revenge killer and while it does have the strongest priority move in the game, it's a true thing to say it's not very reliable and I barely ever have problems facing it. Absol can come in on barely nothing, it's so frail nearly everything 2hko's it and nearly every psychic type carry's a coverage move that ohko's it (after rocks at least) which means even more prediction. Sucker punch does require a lot of prediction and as zeb said, nearly every poke does but in absol's case I think it's much more relevant. Sucker punch is not doing anything if your opponent decides to switch out and running pursuit requires even more prediction and letting go of night slash, SD or more coverage which is not worth it imo. Switching out on sucker punch to come back and sweep later is always an option, but let's not forget that some sweepers also run substitute (swoobat, subCM serp, acroblim, subsmash gorebyss, klang, kadabra, articuno, zard and anything that feels like running it really). The healthier the sub users are, the more subs they can get up, sometimes reducing absol's chance to actually revenge kill to under 1/8. Sucker punch is also pretty easy to abuse with encore.

Personnaly, I prefer running sash kadabra who might only have one shot at hitting hard a threat but will always do so, hit with better coverage options (in terms of hitting a faster sweeper) and access to encore to cripple gimmicks and substitute. Absol isn't really living more than a hit either anyway and psychic's power can be compared to sucker punch.

About Doron's calcs, I'm gonna have to disagree with django when he says this

in what way are those calcs relevant? Listing a bunch of walls it can't OHKO (I could do the exact same for any Pokemon in NU) and then listing a bunch of its checks?

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There's a key word I would like to point out which is bunch (the fact he also listed walls absol couldn't 2hko not ohko is relevant too). Sure Doron is just listing a pack of things that can take on absol pretty well but the fact there's so much is exactly why he's doing so and is the reason why absol should not be S rank. Unlike every poke in the S tier, absol is not wallbreaking any of the common walls and not even many less common ones (tangela, weezing and more). even if absol is a revenge killer and is not attacking walls but offensive threats, these calcs are relevant in a way that many things will take a night slash or superpower even if you do predict correctly they will switch. In the end, absol is not that hard to stop and is mainly good for being able to hit zangoose, swellow and cinccino before they wreck you. Ironicaly, those threats are the ones who require the less set up and therefore are switched out with few consequences while you waste a turn sucker punching nothing. Other calcs show that absol does not OHKO threats that require more set up like ludicolo, gorebyss, fraxure, carracosta...

Even golurk sometimes runs colbur berry letting it demolish absol without dying. I know many of the best players like to play offensive and might think absol is very threatening since they use more frail mons, but as a more balanced player, I must say I barely ever have trouble dealing with absol unlike every other mon in the S tier and many of the A tier.

To those willing to counter my arguments, please don't centralize only on one thing I said, yes I mention my playstyle which is not too important when rating a poke on it's general capacities against everyone but it's far from being my main argument. I mention this because to me it's not even A rank, but I can understand why others would put it there.

NU Co-Leader

I agree with doron, and many if djangos calcs make me want to move absol to a even more. Its not quite strong enough to do what it wants to do, it can't break any walls, is frail as fuck. Not s tier at all. I can post more when I'm not on my phone

RU Co-Leader

I havent played NU in like forever, and my knowledge of the tier is quite rusty atm, but i personally feel that Gothorita being at least D rank is a given. For one thing, Gothorita's stats are actually pretty high for a nfe, being bulkier than misdreavus and having a decent enough special attack stat to do some damage after a few boosts. What really seals the deal with Gothorita, though, is Shadow Tag. Using its great bulk and Shadow Tag ability, Gothorita can come in on several of the defensive Pokemon in the NU tier and turn all of them into set up fodder. For Example, Gothorita turns that really common alomoonguss core into set up fodder if sleep clause is active (or even when its not if you dont mind being wrecked by dark-types!). Gothorita is also capable of disposing of other dangerous threats such as Sawk, Gurdurr, Regirock, Miltank, Garbodor, and Lickilicky. If it traps the right pokemon, Gothorita is perfectly capable of sweeping teams, but even if it doesnt get the chance to sweep it can still play an important role in trapping and eliminating a counter to a teammate to ease their sweep. Of course Gothorita isnt a top tier Pokemon, and it has its fair share of flaws such as low initial power, but if Trapinch and Wynaut are in D rank, i would say that Gothorita is at least on the same level as them (i would argue for even C but its your call).

I might add more later but i need to be somewhere in a few minutes, sorry!

I agree with Molk, Gothorita can effectively trap and kill walls such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, Body Slam Lickilicky, Miltank, and Weezing by setting up to +6 on them, which is enough to put it D or even C Rank. These walls are common enough to warrant Gothorita's use, despite its low intial power.

I agree with doron, and many if djangos calcs make me want to move absol to a even more. Its not quite strong enough to do what it wants to do, it can't break any walls, is frail as fuck. Not s tier at all. I can post more when I'm not on my phone

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I don't care about what rank Absol is put in, but how on earth is it not strong enough when all those calcs I presented are OHKOes with SR? (Apart from Gorebyss but that needs a turn to set up so...). If you want to consider Absol in a vacuum then fine, but in real game situations its damage output is more than enough. If anything it should be moved down because of how frail it is, and how unreliable Sucker Punch is, not because of its damage output, or the claim it "can't break any walls" - something which is 100% untrue.

Like I said I don't care where Absol ends up, this faulty reasoning just concerns me.

NU Co-Leader

Gothorita was mostly not included because it doesn't have an analysis, and the original list of mons we worked off of were from the analyses afaik, or at least taken from them. I'll move Gothorita to D for now but if anyone is especially compelled to argue for C then go right ahead and do so. :)

OK Gothorita is actually a fantastic, underrated mon that I have been using a lot recently. Its utility is unrivaled since it can trap any mon of its choosing. It can take out stuff like Amoonguss, Fighting-types such as Sawk, Gurdurr, Superpower-locked Emboar, or Alomomola which can allow a teammate to sweep without worrying about said threat. The RestCM set is great as it can set up on many walls, but I have been using a bulky offensive set with Rest so it can Rest on walls such as Amoonguss or Alomomola since it takes pitiful damage from their attacks while still hitting hard against offensive teams with moves such as Psychic, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball, or Thunderbolt. I have even PP stalled Pokemon such as choiced Gardevoir. Gothorita is a solid mon for C tier, and in my opinion, top C tier.

I agree that Gothorita is a solid Pokemon. I actually have not been using the RestTalk set but rather SJ's Calm Mind / Rest / Psychic / Reflect set so that I don't have to deal with Sleep Talk possibly selecting Psychic too many times and killing my target before I can set up all the way or that in situations where Gothorita could clean up I have a Reflect and tons of Calm Mind under my belt to do massive damage while taking little damage from both sides in return. Reflect also helps out when you want to beat a single threat such as Amoonguss, but the opponent has an opposing Skuntank or Absol ready to Pursuit it for damage. If Gothorita can get up her Reflect before it finishes up the target it can take the incoming switch Pursuit (Skuntank does about 25% on average with a full power Pursuit) and come back to trap other Pokemon if it wants to later on in the match.

Gothorita with its Eviolite is very bulky and can make a fine switch into major threats such as Gurdurr, Sawk, and Emboar (when using Superpower or Wild Charge) and take them off the match. Gothorita lacks reliable recovery (not even Leftovers) and has to rely on Rest, which limits its performance a fair amount. While Gothorita is not the best Pokemon on her own it provides awesome support for Pokemon such as Sawsbuck, SD Samurott, and Absol to get rid of annoyances and allow them to break through teams. I fully support Gothorita for C-rank.

Wow, I must say this has gotten pretty accurate now. Also, joining the Gothorita bandwagon.

My main problem is that Wartortle is C-Rank. I would consider moving it down to D-Rank, because Wartortle has serious issues that prevent it from being effective. Eviolite gives it decent bulk, but it can't take advantage of it. It does not have any recovery, not even Leftovers, so the hazards it is supposed to spin are going to wear it down easily. It also can get worn down by many attackers, and it cannot do anything because it is powerless. 65 Special Attack with a pathetic Scald or Seismic Toss means it does very little. Spinblockers are a complete stop to Wartortle. It should be placed in D-Rank.

Wartortle isn't that horrible. Its main task is to rapid spin, which it can do multiple times thanks to its bulk (wish support would be nice but not necessary), plus you only should need to rapid spin once anyway. With scald, it can take on any ghost type in the tier minus misdreavus and drifblim (and shedinja), and with foresight, can guarantee no hazards if you are that desperate. If you want to sweep with wartortle, then it is a D-ranked poke, but for support (haze, toxic and yawn are all great moves, as well as the burn chance with scald), wartortle does its job for a C poke

Oh god. My pokemon are all E rank except for Solrock and Ursaring which are C! :/ I have to say though, I think there are 3 pokemon I have on my team which I think should be at least D, and Ursaring should be B, quite simply because of versatility. Have a look here for some sets which work really well in the NU meta-game (it's my rate my team). http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3475549
Anyway, Ursaring now has 2 abilities, guts and quick feet, that both do completely contrasting things. One makes him completely OP in attack but also makes him slow. The other one makes him very fast but at the expense of the power from guts. The opponent won't know which ursaring he is until the orb activates (flame orb is guts, toxic is quick feet) and that could be at the expense of one of your pokemon. However he is not the biggest thing, I have 4 more pokemon that I feel should be higher than E (so D) (I'd say Solrock into B, but I can't deny his flaws at all). Anyway, first up is Octillery:
Octillery can fit whatever role in a team. If the team is weak to, I don't know, gorebys than you can send him out with energy ball! If it's weak to Golurk he can use ice beam (or energy ball XD). Octillery can learn attacks from every type but 3 which is more than anything else, barring Smeargle and I think Mew. You can figure out which 4 moves provide the most coverage possible which don't include Dragon, fighting and ghost. Anyway, due to the diversity of Octillery and the fact that it can find a place on pretty much any team (I suppose you could troll with incinerate XD) I think Octillery should get into D, plus he has a high special attack stat XD.

Second off is Girafarig.
Yeah, yeah. Fuckin' Kadabra. However, a specsed (?) Girafarig is properly incredible and can 3HKO at least pretty much the whole tier. In fact, I think it does 3HKO the whole tier (provided it uses a SE attack) and like Octillery, the wide array of attacks it gets gives it a good place on a team. I currently run pyschic, thunderbolt, energy ball and signal beam, which covers the majority of the tier. When the opponent has all of his pokemon, who probably shouldn't send girafarig out unless needed (like all choice abusers) but when the opponent has even 4 pokemon left you can come back and win the battle (that was a truly glorious battle).

Third is Sealeo, well, more notably, eviolite sealeo.
Eviolite sealeo has bulk. Bulk coming out of his ass! He can survive almost anything. And by that I mean anything. I mean, there was a battle where Musharna calm minded up 8 times with calm mind and Sealeo survived. Albeit with 1HP but he survived! Sealeo has just about the largest amount of bulk in NU and I'd hate for it to go un-noticed in this tier. He actually has a pretty good ResTalk set, surf, ice beam, rest and sleep talk and it works really well. I stongly advise he moves up.