Looking back at my first posting, it seems a little too aggressive. I am glad you did not explode in anger and responded in a civilized manner. I give you a lot of credit for that.

However, we still disagree in a certain measure. The way I see it, those names are a part of our history, and you want to erase that part of our history. That they are a part of our history means they are a part of ourselves. Our parents went through the Great Massacre, some of them survived but many did not. And this is not just a small part of our history: it is a very essential part of it. In my case, I would not exist if that had not happened.

I am not trying to justify the atrocities committed by the murderers, but if the Genocide had not happened, I would have never been born, because my father would have lived all his life in an obscure village in the mountains of Western Turkey, and would have never met my mother who lived in Ada Pazar. This is not an isolated incident. Many of us have similar life stories. If this had not happened, there would be other people in the world, with other stories, other names, maybe Armenian names instead of Bajakhsezian, Karabashian, Gueuzubeuyukian, Topalian, Barmaksezian, Karageuzian, Boyadjian or Svadjian, the same way that if there had not been persecution against the Jews there would not be Goldbaums, Rosenbaums, Silversteins, etc. And those other people with other stories and other names would not be us. They would be other people. Would the world have been a better place with them instead of us? We cannot speculate. All we can say is that this is the way it is now.

Let me reiterate that I am not claiming the Genocide was good. Not at all. It was bad. My own paternal grandfather was shot to death by a Turkish death squadron. My maternal grandfather was almost shot by a squadron and was saved by miracle.

What makes us ourselves, is not only our genes, but also our life stories and our names. Like it or not, I am not an Asadourian, nor a Sevag, nor an Anmahuni; those are not my names.

People may change their names, but then their children will not ask, "What does our name mean, and why do we have a Turkish name?" And people would forget that there was a time when we as a people lived under Turkish domination, and that we were massacred, and many of us did not come out alive from the ordeal, and that it was a black page in the history of the world and we were the protagonists.

And not only we were the protagonists, but we were the victors. The Turkish could not annihilate us. They could not make us convert to Islam. They could not obliterate our language. We were the ones who were on the side of truth and justice, while the Turkish government still tries to cover up their shameful deeds. All of this is an important part of our history, an important part of who we are.

There are people who do not like to talk about the genocide. They say it makes them feel bad. It is difficult to get through to them, that, of course, we all feel bad, but it has to be talked about. For such cases, having a Turkish last name that will eventually force them to tell their children and grandchildren about the genocide may actually be a good thing.

However, if you can change your name, if you have no worries about erasing your history and forgetting the past, or if you are independently wealthy and don't have to think about all those things, go ahead and change it. I imagine some people have enough patriotism that would change their names even against all those obstacles. You may have done that. You may have changed all your school records and diplomas, all legal documents, marriage licenses, insurances, social security, curriculum vitae, professional licenses, notified all your old friends and contacts, etc. Good for you. I admire you.

In my case it would be too difficult. Everybody would think, "did he get into any trouble with the law?" or "did he get sued for something?" "Probably he did not pay his taxes," or "maybe he does not want to pay alimony," and who knows what else.

I know it sounds escapist. It sounds like a betrayal.

On the bright side, my oldest daughter married a guy with an Armenian last name, not Turkish, so that my grandchildren have Armenian last names. And I have no sons, only daughters, so maybe the other two also marry guys with Armenian names.

On the other hand, I know lots of Armenians with Armenian names who don't like Armenians and cannot speak Armenian, nor want their children to learn it, while others with Turkish names have a great love for our nation, speak and teach our language, have founded schools and churches, and give generously to all Armenian causes. Which ones are the better Armenians?

For the time being, I cannot think of changing my name.

Sorry to disappoint you (but I am always willing to read your comments).

Dear Arpa,Looking back at my first posting, it seems a little too aggressive. I am glad you did not explode in anger and responded in a civilized manner. I give you a lot of credit for that.However, we still disagree in a certain measure. The way I see it, those names are a part of our history, and you want to erase that part of our history. That they are a part of our history means they are a part of ourselves. Our parents went through the Great Massacre, some of them survived but many did not. And this is not just a small part of our history: it is a very essential part of it. In my case, I would not exist if that had not happened.

This is the part that always cracks me up. When we talk about “history” Which history are we talking about? How short is our memory? History of the Mamikonians or that of Khorenatsi and Narekatsi?Speaking of “history, look at the following that was posted yesterday by Johannes;

I am not trying to justify the atrocities committed by the murderers, but if the Genocide had not happened, I would have never been born, because my father would have lived all his life in an obscure village in the mountains of Western Turkey, and would have never met my mother who lived in Ada Pazar. This is not an isolated incident. Many of us have similar life stories. If this had not happened, there would be other people in the world,

This is really eerie. You will not believe how many times I have had that same thought that who would I be, or even would there be me had not our ancestors been uprooted from their respective villages, and those two genes had not united. Would there BE a ME? Who would that ME BE? Even though in my case they were both descendants from the same town in Kilikia.

QUOTE

with other stories, other names, maybe Armenian names instead of Bajakhsezian, Karabashian, Gueuzubeuyukian, Topalian, Barmaksezian, Karageuzian, Boyadjian or Svadjian, the same way that if there had not been persecution against the Jews there would not be Goldbaums, Rosenbaums, Silversteins, etc. And those other people with other stories and other names would not be us. They would be other people. Would the world have been a better place with them instead of us? We cannot speculate. All we can say is that this is the way it is now.

I don’t know all the meanings of those names about but I doubt many of them are pejorative and insulting except maybe a name like Schwartz which understandably means “black” Speaking of Isabelle B . Do you know the Opera Diva Beverly Sills that just died? Did you know that her surname was Silberstein before she changed it to Sills, whether it was to degermanize it or purely a professional decision. Why can’t Isabelle do the same, deturkify her name, adopt an Armenian sounding noble name to fit her nobility. Many professionals do. Do you know that Tony Curtis’ given name was Bernie Schwartz?How would a poor little girl Isabelle B. even consider it if some influential and respected community leader be they clergy or laypeople take her aside and urge her to do so? Who would that be, the one time Patriarch Kazanjian, the blessed memory HH Vazgen ! Balji-ian, or Gov. Deukme-ji-ian? Or, maybe the sacristan of Ejmiatsin Abp. Bozabalian, ironically, as we are speaking of divas, did you know that his sister Louisa(rest in peace) Bozabalian was also a world renown opera singer? Once again. Speaking of “history”. Historically speaking. Did we have names like Karabajakian or Goetuboeyukian before we were turkified? What kind of “history” are we talking about?

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Let me reiterate that I am not claiming the Genocide was good. Not at all. It was bad. My own paternal grandfather was shot to death by a Turkish death squadron. My maternal grandfather was almost shot by a squadron and was saved by miracle. What makes us ourselves, is not only our genes, but also our life stories and our names. Like it or not, I am not an Asadourian, nor a Sevag, nor an Anmahuni; those are not my names.People may change their names, but then their children will not ask, "What does our name mean, and why do we have a Turkish name?" And people would forget that there was a time when we as a people lived under Turkish domination, and that we were massacred, and many of us did not come out alive from the ordeal, and that it was a black page in the history of the world and we were the protagonists

How did Daniel Varouzhan lose his family history when he dropped the Turkish surname of Chboukiarian? Many other examples.. Would that be a case of “do as I say, not as I do”?

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And not only we were the protagonists, but we were the victors. The Turkish could not annihilate us. They could not make us convert to Islam. They could not obliterate our language. We were the ones who were on the side of truth and justice, while the Turkish government still tries to cover up their shameful deeds. All of this is an important part of our history, an important part of who we are.

Victors? I will not repeat that saying that goes “ayrats srti….”Victors? Is that why we were reduced to homeless beggars, and we still are begging them to “please, please acknowledge…”?

QUOTE

There are people who do not like to talk about the genocide. They say it makes them feel bad. It is difficult to get through to them, that, of course, we all feel bad, but it has to be talked about. For such cases, having a Turkish last name that will eventually force them to tell their children and grandchildren about the genocide may actually be a good thing.However, if you can change your name, if you have no worries about erasing your history and forgetting the past, or if you are independently wealthy and don't have to think about all those things, go ahead and change it. I imagine some people have enough patriotism that would change their names even against all those obstacles. You may have done that. You may have changed all your school records and diplomas, all legal documents, marriage licenses, insurances, social security, curriculum vitae, professional licenses, notified all your old friends and contacts, etc. Good for you. I admire you.

I am one of those who does not like to talk about the Genocide.To me, it is one of “most shameful eras of our history”. Shameful? How could we let it happen? How could we not see it coming for a whole thousand years, and prepare for it? I know. There may be thousands of excuses. Speaking of Genocide, I never spoke about it to my children, I brought them up listening to Komitas, Khachaturian and other nobles rather than show them videos of the Genocide, and now that they are well adjusted adults, thank you, we do talk about it within the context, not as a “factor of our identity” as some may want us to believe.

QUOTE

In my case it would be too difficult. Everybody would think, "did he get into any trouble with the law?" or "did he get sued for something?" "Probably he did not pay his taxes," or "maybe he does not want to pay alimony," and who knows what else.I know it sounds escapist. It sounds like a betrayal. On the bright side, my oldest daughter married a guy with an Armenian last name, not Turkish, so that my grandchildren have Armenian last names. And I have no sons, only daughters, so maybe the other two also marry guys with Armenian names.

I may be even more fortunate. Not only my surname is not Turkish, never was, my children have chosen partners of either gender with Armenian (nonTurkish) surnames as well. Do you carry your father's family name? What happened to your mothe's maiden name?And, as to your comment about the “big headache” of legal papers, diplomas etc. How do women maintain their CV-s when they marry and adopt their husbands’ surname, when Oriord Masisian become Tikin Araratian?? Once again about it being a “big headache” how much bigger a headache it is that the Genocide?

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On the other hand, I know lots of Armenians with Armenian names who don't like Armenians and cannot speak Armenian, nor want their children to learn it, while others with Turkish names have a great love for our nation, speak and teach our language, have founded schools and churches, and give generously to all Armenian causes. Which ones are the better Armenians? For the time being, I cannot think of changing my name. Sorry to disappoint you (but I am always willing to read your comments).Sarkis11

“Armenians with Armenian names who don’t like Armenians”? I don’t know who you are talking about. Is it because they are sick and tired of so called “Armenians” with Turkish names who get up on the stage on April 24 and spew poison at the Turks?Please allow me to once again invoke the “Patty Hearst/Stockholm Syndrome” Which is tantamount to saying “we call ‘father’ those who rape our mothers, Mer mayr@ brnaparogh@ mer hayrn eh?”.Yes, I do talk about this subject with a passion, just as I have said on many occasions, I was brought up as a Christian Armenian and taught to not lie. To me having a Turkish name and speaking against the turks is the BIGGEST LIE OF THEM ALL.The biggest irony of them all is that the turks themselves don’t have such pejorative surnames like topal, cholakh, ghambour, since that qaqaturk dangled some of those who resisted at the nearest telephone pole.Maybe we need a qaqaturk to hammer some sense into our heads.Who will that qaqaturk be? Our catholicoses with names like Balji-oghlu-ian and Guleserian or our presidential contenders with names like Demirji-oghlu-ian?Please, please everyone. As a first step let us take the least painful road. Remove those tutkifying Js and Ls from your surnames and see how dervoghormiaji-ian** (I am not kidding, this is an actual surname) and Ourfali-ian becomes Ourhayetsi (ian).* * You think I am kdding? Among many, look here;Advisor, Siranoush Dervogormiyaciyanhttp://www.asainc.or...e_comitee.shtml

Yes, it is as turkish as can be except for that elusive -ian.If it is "bilemji" it may may mean "knower, one who knows, maybe even a diviner a seer of ghosts. If it is "belemji" then it will mean "wrap/wrapper" as in "blanket maker".Don't we have our language where a "knower" would be called "gitoun-ian" and a blanket maker would be known as "vermak-ian"?Or is that "JI" ending a legacy of that marqounats-JI, genocide-JI Hamid/Ever/Talaat and other shunshanordi-JI!!!Like Zartonk said above. Any surname that has the letters J and L are furkish. Like when an Armenian surname like Karian becomes kar-J-ian or a name like Vanetsian becomes Van-L-ian.If there still are thoise that assume slapping that ubiquitous IAN after every trashy word makes it Armenian look at names like turkoghlu-IAN. Maybe not. But, look at this, among many, Kurdoghlian;http://www.pbase.com/hagluc/profileHow could any one with a surname of the sort claim to be a Proud Armenian is beyond me. Do we have surnames like "hayordi-ian"Is not "IAN" Fleming the creator of that Agent 007, James Bond?

Note; Perhaps our mods will see it fit to merge these and many other threads that somehow deal with the same or similar issues. Let us help and find them. How about it Ashot? ===Please allow me to move the following here.For all those of us that claim that these furkish surnames are a part of our heritage. When? When did we learn to speak furkish? In 1,500 BC-Hayk, 95 BC -Tigran, 301 AD -Christianity, 401 AD -Mashtots, 451 AD -Avarayr, 1045 Bagratuni-Ani, 1295 AD-Kilikia?Count your blessings, thank Aramazt that I am not furkish, if I were, I would write a book showing how there is no such thing as "Armenian Nation" with such furkish names as "demirji-oghlu-ian, cholakh-oghlu-ian" running for president. Which furk has a surname like cholakh-oghlu? They wouldrather be caught dead, they would be hanged!!!http://hyeforum.com/...showtopic=18383Please, let us not fly the handle again.I will try and remain calm and nice , but please don’t provoke me by saying things like our furkish surnames have historical value, and nothing can be done about them. We only met the furks a few hundred years ago. Why is it to have surnames like Izmirliyan but it is considered a sin to be known as Pasadenian? When did Izmir become an Armenian town any more than Gledale? Why is it a shame to be known as Glendale-ian, or Fresno-ian?First about middle names. Yes, Armenians as a rule don’t have a middle name, those who do is because several factors. Many in English or other European speaking countries give their children Armenian names, and as good measure add a European name as well, like Karapet Charles Sarkisian etc. Those from Middle Eastern countries may have a middle name because culturally those countries did not have the concept of surname, they were named Ahmed Ibn Ali (son of etc) and when (Armenian) children were registered the clerk would ask the father his name and add it , or be satisfied that that would be the family name.

When I said Armenians as a rule don’t have middle names, I was mainly taking abut the so called western Armenians, who have so many varied surnames that Ambakum Ambakumian would be so unique that it did not beg the question as to which Ambakum. However in the Yerevan province half the males are names Armen Hacobian and half the females are named Armenouhi Sagsyan, and visa versa. So ,which Armen or which Armenouhi. AH!!! Armen Sargsi Hacobian and Armenouhi Hacobi Sargsyan.

As to which it is, Y/Յ or I/Ի , it is neither .It is E/Ե, meaning belonging to/from like in Արարատեան Դաշտ. We have already spoken about that, let me add one more thing. Besides the Y being of Latin German influence (consider Johannes/Yohannes, Hebert Von Karajan/Karayan, I have German made map of the ME where Yerevan is written as "JEREWAN"), there is perhaps an unwritten rule, when the letter is between two vowels it becomes a Y like in Egoyan/Եկոյան** or Aghayan/Աղայան, otherwise it is an I. Please note that here we are talking about the Latin transliteration, In the Armenian, strictly speaking it is -Ean/-ԵԱՆ, except, as above it falls between two vowels.** I don’t know what Egoyan means. Is it in fact Yeghoyan? In Syria there were several families with surnames of Ekavian/Եկաւեան. Was that ԱՒ meant be pronounced as the classical O?Leave it to that Abegh-tspegh-YAN , whi in my opinion did not even know the first elementary thing about our language, blinded by his russophila, made it the law that the Յ will exclusively sound Like Y,. He did not know the rule of the initial Յ and Յ in context, when he ruled that Յակոբ Hacob ՀագոբՅարոըթիւն ՀարուըթիւնHarutyoun Look how the Latins write Jacob and Joseph where the J =Յ. Just like the Spanish Jose/Hozeh/Khozeh

Arpa, I'm sure a lot of Armenians are not aware that they have Turkified last names. I know that I don't know how to correctly identify the Turkified surnames. What can be done about it? Are you sure publicly cursing one of our greatest talents is the way to go about it?

Of course I have. Hence my mention of Armenian food names in the first place.

Still, that doesn't justify the kind of language you posted above regarding her.

"Kind of language"?Don't provoke me as I can use even harsher language in several languages.How do we know if our srnames furkish?There are many of us who do. What we need is a commitee. But who will be that commitee? With people like Patriarch-Kazan-ji-oghlu-ian, Mutaf=ji-oghlu, or Catholicos Bal-ji-oghlu-ian/ HH Amenayn Vazgen I ? Which of the preceding is an Armenian surname ala Sahak-Mesrop? Do you know the adage- "Physician heal thyself/ Բժիշկ, բժշկեայ զանձն քո"? Don't tell us how to become Christian Armenians when you have moslem furkish snames!!I hate to say this, but what we need is a qaqafurk who made it a law to not have pejorative and insultful names lke topal, cholakh ghambour etc. and he dangled a few of those who persisted from the nearest telephone pole/tree. Do we need a qaqafurk? Yes, we do when people with surnames like Cholakhian, Stambol-ian, Demir-ji-oghlu-ian run for the presidency of Armenia. Should they not be running for the presidency of furkey? As neither cholakh, ghambour, demirji have ever been Armenian words just as Istanbul has never been an Armenian town.

In another topic (humor) I posted the following. Where I suggested that the surname of the president of furkey may have been a variation of the so called Armenian surname of “gulezian”.This is not a laughing matter, neither it is something to smile at. I can make fun of most everything since my great great grat grandfather's name was Hakob Baronianhttp://hyeforum.com/...mp;#entry247587Yes, it does mean “smiley”. Only if I could “smile” :smile: without breaking my face! I googled using “gulezian” as the keyword and look how many hits I got.1 - 10 of about 32,400 for gulezianHUH?? 32,400 hits?WTF!! Who are these “furks” masquerading as “Armenians”?Don’t they know that the Armenian word for “smile” is “zhpit/ժպիտ/խինդ/խնդուք”?No, no! It is not /crazy “խենդուկ” Do the furks have surnames like “zhbitoghlu”? Then why do we?Are we still waiing for the days when “yeghbayr dardzan Hayastan tajkastan”?? When we can all laugh and smile (gul) together?Yes, yes. We know they will only laugh and smile over our dead bodies.WHERE IS GAMAVOR of the…“the best furk is a dead f…” fame?

Please allow me to move this to its proper topic.Dear Anoushik, thank you for your response, and Thank Yervant for answering my main question, and for the great site, where, for the first time I saw Karsh actualy affirm his ethnic Armenian heritage.The graphics in the site are wonderful as well. Yes, as you put it, more than half of our names are not traditional Armenian, most being, to put it mildly “biblical”, and others being of Persian(?) origin.Yes, at times I do use provocative language, as that, sadly enough seems to be he only way to create reaction. Proofs? The very responses by you an Yervant. Pleas read my post again and see my main point, when this Assyrian person challenged us and affirmed that Mr. Karsh was in fact of Assyrian heritage. We had very little to go by, the fact that he hailed from a predominantly Assyrian populated region and the structure of his given name and his family name. Of course, we can always use negative logic. The fact that after so many years of him described as Armenian, he has never, to my knowledge rebuffed it. By the same token of reverse logic, there may be many instances. Like Mike Connors (birth name Grigor Ohanian), Mark Geragos, not to forget Charles Aznavour who don’t use the IAN suffix, and either their first and family names are Armenian strictly speaking, yet their ethnicity is carried on the sleeves so to speak. I personally know many who have removed the IAN for whatever reason, be it for its cumbersomeness or to hide their ethnicity, a phenomenon of some time when being an Armenian may have been a disadvantage . I can cite real examples, which I have on numerous occasions. The process is as easy as ABC, or rather removal of the L and J to deturkify our family names. It may be ironic, but not so funny, that we have more furkish surnames than the furks themselves.Make my day. Please!My day will be made when even one of us would remove that blasted furkifying J(i)and L(i) from their surnames. Marash is an Armenian town, but when we insert that damn L between Marash and IAN it becomes furkified. Takhta is an Armenian word as in “takhtak”, but when we insert that damn J between “takhta” (takht=throne, maybe Persian) and IAN it becomes furkish. Teneke is an IE word like “tin/stannus”, In the Armenian the initial T is dropped to become -“anak” **but when we add that damn J as in teneke-J-ian??Make my day! When even one of us comes here and declares that they have removed those damn J and L from their surnames, it will be MY DAY, I will pop open that 100 year old bottle of cognac and celebrate.**Another Armenian word for the metal is “galay/klay” But when the “klayagorts “ becomes ghalayJIian/kalayJIian? And when the pghntsagorts (coppersmith) becomes “ghazanchetots”, see the Armenian church (ghazanchetots) in Shushihttp://www.armeniape...al-DCP_3067.JPGWhoever are those ghazanJis ? Have they not heard that the Armenian word for "pot" is "katsa" or in the least "san"?

Special Commission was set up at the Azerbaijan National Academy to determine a format of Azeri national last names, Trend News reports. “The Commission will study historical forms of last names, traditions of giving names in Azerbaijan and will propose Azeri national last name format,” Nizami Jafarov, Head of Azeri Permanent Parliamentary Commission on Culture, declared.According to him, the studies will be completed in a couple of months and everyone regardless the age will be eligible of changing the endings of last name accordingly, this refers also the newborns. Legally, Azeri citizens may use new last names in juridical documents until the endings are replaced in official documents.According to 1993 law on conformation of Azeri surnames with the official language, the citizens of Azerbaijan can change the “[ov]” and “[ev]” endings of their last names to “[ly]” (“[li]”, “[lu]”, “[lyu]”, depending on the word stem), “[zade]”, “[oglu]”, “[gyzy]” or remove the endings.This process perfectly complies with the country’s Turk-Tatar habitants to gain their identity. Within the framework of this process alphabet in Azerbaijan is periodically changed too from Cyrillic into Latin and vice versa