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You do realize that I have not once mentioned Smogon when talking about competitive battling on this topic, right?

That's nice. But they are the largest community that is specifically and almost exclusively dedicated to competitive battling. Sure there's other things they do, but just like SPP is dedicated to the games and the anime, Smogon is dedicated to competitive battling.

So yes, when I bring up something to counter your factual statement that the majority of competitive battlers are elitist jerk meanies, I think that it coming from the largest community of competitive battlers refutes it quite well.

Anyway, I was weighing whether or not I should respond to the rest of your remark, since said remark is purely speculative and not factual

I'm not claiming any facts. You are. You are saying the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitist. So prove it.

And no, your anecdotal interactions of battling experience with people is not at all representative of the thousands upon thousands of competitive battlers. So don't try to pass off your factual statement that the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitists due to your personal experience .

(not to mention you're really grasping at straws here, bringing tournaments into the argument to try and make it sound like you've got DNA evidence to argue my point).

The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. You made the claim. I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to proof your statement correct.

I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!

My thoughts as a former casual-turned-competitive player that quit competitive play near the end of 4th gen era who hardly plays anymore:

The nature of being competitive means looking for better ways to do something to get an edge on the competition. In pokemon battling, Natures, IVs, EVs, Held Items, Damage calcs, etc. are all ways for a player to have an edge against opponents. By default, this results in the competitive player being strictly better at battling in PvP matches than a non-competitive player. This is not elitism, as it seems to have been postulated above. Elitism results when a competitive player views non-competitive players as inferior gamers and excludes or insults them for this reason. This does not happen to every competitive player ever.

To compare, I personally love playing (American) football. I love playing catch, running plays in my backyard with friends, and improving my ability to play the game, but I've never played it in an organized league of any sort. Random NFL player is better at football at me. Being an NFL player doesn't make him an elitist. You cannot categorically assume that all NFL players are elitists because they are better at football than non-NFL players. In the same way, you can't make the assumption that all competitive battlers are elitist, or that competitive play makes people elitist, just because they are better at battling than non-competitive players.

That's nice. But they are the largest community that is specifically and almost exclusively dedicated to competitive battling. Sure there's other things they do, but just like SPP is dedicated to the games and the anime, Smogon is dedicated to competitive battling.

So yes, when I bring up something to counter your factual statement that the majority of competitive battlers are elitist jerk meanies, I think that it coming from the largest community of competitive battlers refutes it quite well.

I'm not claiming any facts. You are. You are saying the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitist. So prove it.

And no, your anecdotal interactions of battling experience with people is not at all representative of the thousands upon thousands of competitive battlers. So don't try to pass off your factual statement that the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitists due to your personal experience .

The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. You made the claim. I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to proof your statement correct.

Make no mistake. I'm not saying that Smogon is Prince Charming. I'm just trying to leave them out of it this time.

You can say 'a few people don't represent everybody' until you're blue in the face. But at the end of the day, every person that does competitive battling represents it, much in the same way that every person here represents the Pokemon fanbase. So the way they act is going to be an indication to people of how things are run. That's the way it is.

And finally, I shouldn't have to prove anything. All I'm doing is telling you why I don't like competitive battling. I know it's an unpopular view. I admit it. But that's the way I see it.

Last edited by SBaby; 14th May 2013 at 8:10 AM.

If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.
- Bruce Lee

Yeah, those elitist jerks poopie heads! What a bunch of horrible monsters they are for tutoring people who want to get into competitive battling! They're so elite, they try to teach newcomers how to do it!

Wait, that's like, the opposite of elite.

You can say 'a few people don't represent everybody' until you're blue in the face.

It also helps that it is, in fact, true. Your personal experience is known as anecdotal evidence, and is in no way, shape, or form, a scientifically balanced sample where you can draw conclusions based on.

And considering your tone and demeanor, I'm not entirely ruling out that you're the reason why your experience with competitive battling is horrible. You go into it with the mindset that only elitist jerks play it. And surprise! Your experience is a bad one! This is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

the person who ruined But at the end of the day, every person that does competitive battling represents it, The

No they don't. Each person represents themselves.

much in the same way that every person here represents the Pokemon fanbase.

Again, no, they don't. If someone from this forum went on a shooting rampage, then by your logic, all Pokemon fans are now serial killers, or at least potential serial killers.

So the way they act is going to be an indication to people of how things are run.

Again, those horrible elitist jerk poopie heads try to help people learn competitive battling! Man, they are so horrible!

I know it's an unpopular view.

You know why it's an unpopular view? Because people typically don't like when you make broad generalizations about a huge group of people based on hearsay.

And finally, I shouldn't have to prove anything. All I'm doing is telling you why I don't like competitive battling.

Yes. We understand. Some guy or guys somewhere were "mean" to you and therefore you hate everything they're associated with.

Last edited by randomspot555; 14th May 2013 at 8:52 AM.

I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!

Yeah, those elitist jerks poopie heads! What a bunch of horrible monsters they are for tutoring people who want to get into competitive battling! They're so elite, they try to teach newcomers how to do it!

Wait, that's like, the opposite of elite.

It also helps that it is, in fact, true. Your personal experience is known as anecdotal evidence, and is in no way, shape, or form, a scientifically balanced sample where you can draw conclusions based on.

And considering your tone and demeanor, I'm not entirely ruling out that you're the reason why your experience with competitive battling is horrible. You go into it with the mindset that only elitist jerks play it. And surprise! Your experience is everyone (I'm sorry, "vast majority") is an elitist jerk doo doo head.

No they don't. Each person represents themselves.

Again, no, they don't.

Again, those horrible elitist jerk poopie heads try to help people learn competitive battling! Man, they are so horrible!

Yes. We understand. Some guy or guys somewhere were "mean" to you and therefore you hate everything they're associated with.

Alright. Since you're essentially doing nothing more than trolling at this point, I don't see a reason to continue this discussion. The fact is, I don't like competitive battling. And to be completely honest, you've convinced me more than ever that it is still elitist and I should continue to avoid it.

Last edited by SBaby; 14th May 2013 at 8:52 AM.

If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.
- Bruce Lee

Alright. Since you're essentially doing nothing more than trolling at this point, I don't see a reason to continue this discussion. The fact is, I don't like competitive battling, and frankly, you've convinced me more than ever that I should still avoid it.

He isn't trolling at all. Those are all valid counter-arguments. You're the one who refuses to accept them.

I haven't done any competitive battling in like, 4 years. I probably have spent more time watching the anime than EV training Pokemon.

OMIGOD anime fans are elitists!!!!

It's not what a person is a fan of that makes them look elitist. It's their attitude toward others. But it does strike me as odd why you defend competitive battling so fiercely if you haven't done it in 4 years. This is more of a curiosity than anything else, though.

Wow, I think this is the most I've posted on this site in quite a long time.

If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.
- Bruce Lee

It's not what a person is a fan of that makes them look elitist. It's their attitude toward others. But it does strike me as odd why you defend competitive battling so fiercely if you haven't done it in 4 years. This is more of a curiosity than anything else, though.

Wow, I think this is the most I've posted on this site in quite a long time.

It's not what a person is a fan of that makes them look elitist. It's their attitude toward others.

You're basically contradicting yourself here. Earlier you said that fans of competitive battling are elitist, and now you're saying that "It's not what a person is a fan of that makes them look elitist."

You're basically contradicting yourself here. Earlier you said that fans of competitive battling are elitist, and now you're saying that "It's not what a person is a fan of that makes them look elitist."

No, I said competitive battlers tend to act elitist. There's a difference. You can like competitive battling and not be elitist. It is indeed possible.

If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done.
- Bruce Lee

I'm one of those people who never really bothers with the EV's, IV's and things of a pokemon (though if it has the worst of its avialable abilities then I will look for another)
To me though there should be more than enough things out there for your pokemon to make the battles interesting. There are now loads of moves to choose from, so you should never really know what your opponent might throw at you (though ypu may have some ideas) and there are loads of hold items available too (do you power up Pikachu's electric moves further, give a boost to one of its other moves, allow it to heal every turn, or give it something to cure a status - the choice is yours!) Anything else just makes it more frustrating.
How many people here have hatched out twenty of the same pokemon in an attempt to get one that has everything perfect?
But even with all the items and moves, everyone seems to stick to the same methods.
I'm not much of one for competitive play myself, but I've seen many youtube videos posted by people who play competitively, and a lot of their pokemon are more often than not exactly the same. Odds are if you face an Ursaring it has a massive Attack stat, the Guts ability, a flame orb and will use Facade. Great against that kid who turns up with all legendary pokemon, but ultimately predictable and dull.

Worst of all though are some of the lengths you have to go to get a move for your pokemon. TM's and HM's I get. Breeding for a move I get. Trading heart scales and coloured shards I get, but BP collecting is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, the Battle Subway and the Battle Frontier etc are fun, but point collecting is tedious work. When you get to the end of a run of battles and get 1 measly BP you've got to ask if it was worth it. Teaching Heat Wave to Staraptor sounds cool, but it costs 48BP, and what am I going to do with it really? Brave Bird already handles grass and bug types, Close Combat deals with steel types and who sends a Staraptor out against an ice type? Not only that but by the time you save up enough BP, the number of battles fought would have raised Staraptor ten more levels had they been against regular trainers. Some of the costs of these moves are ridiculous. Is all the work involved to teach Ice Punch to your Blastoise reall worth it when all is said and done? And for that matter didn't Ice Punch cost like 3,000 pokedollars in generation 2?

Some people argue that you get a better sense of ownership over the pokemon that you work to raise perfectly, but I don't see that. If you chucked away ten Pichu to get the "right one" then the resulting pokemon is little more than a tool. You know which ones I feel "ownership" for? The Pidgey that I caught on the first route with my first pokeball, and who has remained on the team ever since, helping to take down the villains of the storyline and helping out in gyms and the league - that one I feel close to. A pokemon bred from an egg to get everything about it perfect that given an Exp Share until it was at a useable level for online play bears none of that sentimentality to me.

I'm one of those people who never really bothers with the EV's, IV's and things of a pokemon (though if it has the worst of its avialable abilities then I will look for another)
To me though there should be more than enough things out there for your pokemon to make the battles interesting. There are now loads of moves to choose from, so you should never really know what your opponent might throw at you (though ypu may have some ideas) and there are loads of hold items available too (do you power up Pikachu's electric moves further, give a boost to one of its other moves, allow it to heal every turn, or give it something to cure a status - the choice is yours!) Anything else just makes it more frustrating.

Yeah, but Pikachu is kind of frail, only resists Electric, has no immunities, and again, is really frail. His one advantage over all other Pokemon is Light Ball boosting both of his offensive stats.

So while there's in theory tons of options, making a defensive oriented Pikachu is kind of a waste of time because there's several other Pokemon that play defense and play it better.

How many people here have hatched out twenty of the same pokemon in an attempt to get one that has everything perfect?
But even with all the items and moves, everyone seems to stick to the same methods.

Yeah, but do you know why they stick to "the same methods"? They stick to what works and what is likely to win. Snorlax has a pretty decent Special movepool, but its Sp Atk stat sucks so why even bother?

Worst of all though are some of the lengths you have to go to get a move for your pokemon. TM's and HM's I get. Breeding for a move I get. Trading heart scales and coloured shards I get, but BP collecting is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, the Battle Subway and the Battle Frontier etc are fun, but point collecting is tedious work. When you get to the end of a run of battles and get 1 measly BP you've got to ask if it was worth it. Teaching Heat Wave to Staraptor sounds cool, but it costs 48BP, and what am I going to do with it really? Brave Bird already handles grass and bug types, Close Combat deals with steel types and who sends a Staraptor out against an ice type? Not only that but by the time you save up enough BP, the number of battles fought would have raised Staraptor ten more levels had they been against regular trainers. Some of the costs of these moves are ridiculous. Is all the work involved to teach Ice Punch to your Blastoise reall worth it when all is said and done? And for that matter didn't Ice Punch cost like 3,000 pokedollars in generation 2?

You get 3 BP in Gen 4 Battle Facotry (Rental) and get between 2-3 in the PWT Rental Tournament. It really isn't that hard to get BP and why are you teaching Heat Wave to Staraptor anyway? And bonus: PWT gives you a shard if you lose! Win win! And in the case of the Battle Frontier and Subway, the more you win, the more BP you win. So it gives you an incentive to train Pokemon to their highest potential, rather than going on and hoping for the best. But yes, going in with a team that was in-game trained is an okay strategy. But it is going to take a lot longer to rack up BP or unlock all the PWT tournaments and so on.

Some people argue that you get a better sense of ownership over the pokemon that you work to raise perfectly, but I don't see that. If you chucked away ten Pichu to get the "right one" then the resulting pokemon is little more than a tool. You know which ones I feel "ownership" for? The Pidgey that I caught on the first route with my first pokeball, and who has remained on the team ever since, helping to take down the villains of the storyline and helping out in gyms and the league - that one I feel close to. A pokemon bred from an egg to get everything about it perfect that given an Exp Share until it was at a useable level for online play bears none of that sentimentality to me.

And that's nice if that's the case for you. Others would argue that raising a Pokemon to bring out its best potential features also shows a kindness and bond between Pokemon and trainer. Surely you don't use EVERY Pokemon you capture in every game, do you? What makes the trainer who hatches 10 Pokemon and boxes 9 bad, but someone like you who boxes 50-70 Pokemon in a journey and maybe uses 10 at the most good?

I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!

I find the competitive metagame boring.
Because, according to someone, this pokemon has to have these specific moves, stats, and held item to win.
Gets a bit repetitive after a while.
To each their own, I guess.

We all make mistakes, but the biggest one we can make is not learning from them.

Yeah, but Pikachu is kind of frail, only resists Electric, has no immunities, and again, is really frail. His one advantage over all other Pokemon is Light Ball boosting both of his offensive stats.

So while there's in theory tons of options, making a defensive oriented Pikachu is kind of a waste of time because there's several other Pokemon that play defense and play it better.

Yeah, but do you know why they stick to "the same methods"? They stick to what works and what is likely to win. Snorlax has a pretty decent Special movepool, but its Sp Atk stat sucks so why even bother?

You get 3 BP in Gen 4 Battle Facotry (Rental) and get between 2-3 in the PWT Rental Tournament. It really isn't that hard to get BP and why are you teaching Heat Wave to Staraptor anyway? And bonus: PWT gives you a shard if you lose! Win win! And in the case of the Battle Frontier and Subway, the more you win, the more BP you win. So it gives you an incentive to train Pokemon to their highest potential, rather than going on and hoping for the best. But yes, going in with a team that was in-game trained is an okay strategy. But it is going to take a lot longer to rack up BP or unlock all the PWT tournaments and so on.

And that's nice if that's the case for you. Others would argue that raising a Pokemon to bring out its best potential features also shows a kindness and bond between Pokemon and trainer. Surely you don't use EVERY Pokemon you capture in every game, do you? What makes the trainer who hatches 10 Pokemon and boxes 9 bad, but someone like you who boxes 50-70 Pokemon in a journey and maybe uses 10 at the most good?

Pikachu was just an example there. I know that there are far better electric types.

Simply having"what is likely to win" is okay, but at the same time you get completely standard ways to deal with those methods. All I'm saying is mix it up a bit. If you win in the same way as everyone else, then what have you really achieved?

Again, Heat Wave to Staraptor was just an example.

I'm someone who can go right the way through a game (and by that I mean through all the gyms, the league and all after events) and capture maybe as many as twenty pokemon, thirty five tops and will regularly use each them. I work on making a well-balanced team for the main game, but will have reserve pokemon as well, happily taking the time to train maybe two grass, fire, ground, electric and normal types, a flying type, maybe three different water types, and then perhaps one of each other.

Also I find your last argument contradictive. You say that there is nothing wrong with training a pokemon to bring out its best features, and I agree, but that is not what you are doing. Instead of making the most of the pokemon you got, you are breeding a dozen others from it in order to get one that's at a perfect starting point. You only work to bring out the best in the best possible candidate you can find. If its EV's or whatever are absolutely the worst that they could possibly be for your pokemon, then obviously get another, but how about working hard to bring out the best in a second-rate pokemon for a change?

Pikachu was just an example there. I know that there are far better electric types.

You missed my point entirely. Pikachu is really good at one thing. Other Pokemon are really good at other things. Using a Pokemon with crap Sp Atk as a special sweeper is just dumb. You don't get cool points for being creative. Sure, being "standard" is boring, but so is being unique for the sake of being unique,

Simply having"what is likely to win" is okay, but at the same time you get completely standard ways to deal with those methods. All I'm saying is mix it up a bit. If you win in the same way as everyone else, then what have you really achieved?

In no way is anyone stifled from not "mixing it up". But again, you don't get cool points if you lose a battle with a Choice Band Caterpie. You either win or lose. There are tons of really talented battlers that utilize unique strategies and movesets that, in the hands of less experienced trainers, would probably fail.

Again, Heat Wave to Staraptor was just an example.

But there really is no shortage of way to get either BP or shards.

I'm someone who can go right the way through a game (and by that I mean through all the gyms, the league and all after events) and capture maybe as many as twenty pokemon, thirty five tops and will regularly use each them. I work on making a well-balanced team for the main game, but will have reserve pokemon as well, happily taking the time to train maybe two grass, fire, ground, electric and normal types, a flying type, maybe three different water types, and then perhaps one of each other.

That's nice. But by far your playstyle of rotating out and using dozens of Pokemon isn't common. A team of six you stick through for most of the game is by far the most common method of playing the game. So are these people bad trainers, according to you?

Also I find your last argument contradictive. You say that there is nothing wrong with training a pokemon to bring out its best features, and I agree, but that is not what you are doing. Instead of making the most of the pokemon you got, you are breeding a dozen others from it in order to get one that's at a perfect starting point. You only work to bring out the best in the best possible candidate you can find. If its EV's or whatever are absolutely the worst that they could possibly be for your pokemon, then obviously get another, but how about working hard to bring out the best in a second-rate pokemon for a change?

Who says Pokemon just rot in boxes? I know breeders who trade away the ones they aren't using, use them in other situations like Contests or Bug Catching, and all types of jazz. They might use them for breeding if they have a good IV spread or something.

More power to you if you think people should only use Pokemon that come naturally within the main course of the game. But the thousands of breeders and shiny hunters and so on obviously disagree with you.

I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!

I find the competitive metagame boring.
Because, according to someone, this pokemon has to have these specific moves, stats, and held item to win.
Gets a bit repetitive after a while.
To each their own, I guess.

in my experience in competitive battling, having unique movesets means you are a noob and have no idea what you are doing, even if you happen to win the battle hax free

As far as hardcore breeding versus the "make the most of what you've got" mindset goes, I can see the love in both methods. In the case of the latter, there is a sentimental appeal to trying to bring out the best in a (forgive the expression) 'dud' Pokémon. Nothing wrong with that, and even noble, in its way.

But the former is also an expression of love and respect. Think of it like entering a 4H-style competition: you plant a garden full of tomatoes, selectively pollinate those that produce the best fruits down a few generations, and eventually you get your prize tomato, and you nurture it and protect it and shine it up to present it to the judges. Hopefully you win the competition. And all the tomato plant predecessors are valued, if not for their individually winning competitions, then for their ancestral contribution to producing the best tomato in show. And of course, all Pokémon battles are competitions. Everyone plays to win, although certainly some folks play only to win.

As for me, when I do the hardcore competitive stuff, it's partly because I want to stand on equal footing with the best competitors out there and win those challenging battles, but it's also partly from another perspective. I like to think my Pokémon are representatives of their whole sub-species, and therefore their abilities and skills should be conditioned to the best possible degree. That means that my representative of the Roserade species needs to have terrific IVs and properly calibrated EVs, so it can perform to the utmost ideal of what Roserades are capable of. And like it or not, not every Roserade can fulfill that ideal, so I have to breed or search for one that can. Sure you can have a poor-IV/poorly-EV'ed Roserade do the best it can do, but that won't be the same thing the best possible Roserade could do - and that last is what I strive for when I train. Rather than training a Pokémon to make the most out of an individual, I'm training to make the most out of the whole sub-species.

So at least in regards to these kinds of current mechanics, no, I wouldn't say they make the game less fun. They're an optional means of making the game... well, "more fun" isn't the right expression, but perhaps richer or more of an intellectual investment.

The only game mechanics that make things less fun for me at present is weather abuse. Maybe it's lazy or petulant of me, but I just do not want to bother with frequent auto-rain, -sun, or -sandstorm. I think what frustrates me about them is that they permanently take away weaknesses (rain and sun, anyway) for multiple team members and also effectively reduce resistance to their respective attack types, again for multiple team members. But then, everybody's got their pet peeves. =P

Finally, I'll also say that one consequence of competitive play (although it is not in principle excluded from casual play) that has always disappointed me is the inevitability of standard Pokémon. Because some critters are indeed inherently better than others thanks to sheer stat spread, top-tier play filters down to a revolving door of the same 10 or 15% of the Pokedex. In other words, no matter how well I breed and train my Dodrio, a Staraptor will always be a more winsome choice of team member because it does the same things Dodrio would, just better (even if Staraptor did not have Close Combat). This isn't so much a game mechanic as it is a reflection of the fact that some Pokémon just have better stats than others. *shrug*

Robin Williams
1951-2014"What's it gonna be? I don't know. But maybe along the way, you take my hand, tell a few jokes, and have some fun. C'mon, pal. You're not afraid, are ya?"

in my experience in competitive battling, having unique movesets means you are a noob and have no idea what you are doing, even if you happen to win the battle hax free

Unique sets can be good and experienced battlers use them when they fill that role they're looking for. But at the same time, you don't get super cool points for running a "unique" but crappy set. Sure, Choice Specs Blissey is unique. But it also won't last long in battle and there are better users of Choice Specs than Blissey.

So yeah, unique sets are good when they actually do well. But some new guy (and I was that new guy at one point) who comes in thinking he has the most unique Charizard set out there is probably gonna get curbstomped if he tries to do something that Charizard frankly isn't all that good at.

I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!