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Infinite Regress is Impossible1. We observe trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If there was an infinite regress you would have happened already having had an eternity do so. And you would never have existed because the past would continue to go on for eternity never reaching this point. As you can see, infinite regress in all its varieties (e.g. cycles, mutiverses) is inherently contradictory and therefore, false.

Something Can't Come From Nothing2. Something can't come from nothing (non-existence) either, because that which does not exist can't cause anything. Nothing always leaves nothing from nothing. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same. Since that which does not exist has no energy, it cannot produce a singularity for the universe. Many times I have heard atheists say, "The properties of the universe are different from the whole, so the composition doesn't abide in cause and effect when it was brought into being." Of course, this is doublespeak because for something to be "brought into being" requires a cause.

A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind3. Since nature can't always have existed nor start up from nothing, there must exist that which is outside of nature, that is, outside of time and space which always existed. This is whom we call the uncreated Creator. If you want to compare an always existing timeless singularity to the uncreated Creator, simply observe what we know that that which doesn't have a mind, will, emotion, conscience, intuition, or self-consciousness can't produce that which does. The lesser can never produce the greater. There has not even been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe to be able to do so. If you claim time is needed to bring about this universe from a singularity but the singularity has no time then this universe would never have existed if a causeless singularity existed.

The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God4. Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists, we can compare. A God who is accessible and personal is better than one that is not. Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation and dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally. Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples beliefs (having exhausted them all), we should submit ourselves to this evidence, because if a person doesn't, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.

How does that which is uncreated come from something? Uncreated means always existed.

Slow crowd here.

How do you know the universe was created and not 'uncreated?'
You're just applying a double standard - you say the universe can't be created but your imaginary friend is exempt from this rule.

All four of your assumptions are baseless and without empirical and falsifiable evidence to testify it as being anything other than pure unadultrated bullshit. Particularly #4, but all of them.

If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan

How does that which is uncreated come from something? Uncreated means always existed.

Slow crowd here.

So why can't the universe always have existed and be "uncreated"? Obviously, something that would have had the intelligence to have created the universe would have had to have been much more complex than the universe itself...so isn't it a more likely option that the universe is "uncreated" rather than a more complex god?

23rd January 2011, 03:11 (This post was last modified: 23rd January 2011, 03:15 by Skipper. )

(23rd January 2011, 03:08)noselfwilling Wrote:

(23rd January 2011, 03:01)Skipper Wrote: so isn't it a more likely option that the universe is "uncreated" rather than a more complex god?

Why does God have to be less complicated than the universe? That which is greater is needed to produce the lesser.

Why can't the universe always have existed? See the 4 Steps in the opening post.

Slow crowd here.

I said he would have to be more complex than the universe. Not less.

Who's the slow one here? It might be me as I've just finished a 8 hour shift in a club at 6am after not sleeping properly and drinking heavily for 3 days...however you're the one defending the existence of an invisible sky man with flawed, double standards logic...so I'll still put money on it being you.

23rd January 2011, 03:17 (This post was last modified: 23rd January 2011, 03:25 by TheDarkestOfAngels. )

(23rd January 2011, 03:08)noselfwilling Wrote:

(23rd January 2011, 03:01)Skipper Wrote: so isn't it a more likely option that the universe is "uncreated" rather than a more complex god?

Why does God have to be less complicated than the universe? That which is greater is needed to produce the lesser.

Why can't the universe always have existed? See the 4 Steps in the opening post.

Slow crowd here.

Well, aren't you just adorable.
I could sit here and make all sorts of baseless claims like you did about all sorts of imaginary creatures.
Dragons. Fairies. Ethical Wall Street executives. Honest Politicians. Unicorns. Fiscal Conservatives.
That doesn't make them true any more than your ridicuous statements and granted, I don't know how much time you spent typing those up but you have unequivically and clearly posted your opinion about how things are. You have nothing isofar as actual evidence.

I tell you what though. If god exists, I'll believe him and convert to whatever religion he picks out for me if he seems like an okay guy if he just shows up at my house so I can talk to him personally. He's supposed to be omnipotent. Maybe that's a bit much though. A guest on the nightly news would be just as effective, I think, but until then, keep your fantasy to yourself mmkay?

If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan

23rd January 2011, 03:34 (This post was last modified: 23rd January 2011, 03:44 by noselfwilling. )

(23rd January 2011, 03:11)Skipper Wrote: I said he would have to be more complex than the universe. Not less. you're the one defending the existence of an invisible sky man with flawed, double standards logic.

I didn't say you said God is less complex.

Outside of time and space God is not a man.

Let me know when you can tell me about this "flawed, double standards logic." I am all ears.

(23rd January 2011, 03:17)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: I could sit here and make all sorts of baseless claims like you did about all sorts of imaginary creatures.If god exists, I'll believe him and convert to whatever religion he picks out for me if he seems like an okay guy if he just shows up at my house so I can talk to him personally. He's supposed to be omnipotent. Maybe that's a bit much though. A guest on the nightly news would be just as effective, I think, but until then, keep your fantasy to yourself mmkay?

I wasn't trying to defend a creature, but the uncreated Creator is proven by the proof in the opening post you are avoiding.

Since you have the proof why would Jesus need to pop in front of you for you to believe in Him? Moreover, what makes you think if Satan didn't do the same thing you would dicsern the difference? You want Him to fulfill your selfish demands, but then He would have to do that for everyone, but that would not be realistic for remember what happened last time? People like you killed him. So He is spending some time away to let mankind know they can't do it on our own. Furthermore, He said when He returns we will all know it, so for Him to return just for selfish you after 2000 years would contradict what He said. It would seem to me then whatever pops in front of you you will accept as Jesus but that contradicts Jesus, so aren't you admitting you worship the Devil?

You will see Him on the news when He returns on Aug. 7, 2022. Actually, assuming you will take the mark of the beast or die with 1/3 of the people on earth (Rev. 9.18), you won't see Jesus on the news channels, but you will see Him 1000 years later when you are resurrected to the Great White Throne, judged, and thrown into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Don't be upset by this, it's what you want deep down inside.