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I do agree with your statement of "In my opinion ESO changed the theme of TES games to accomidate RvR combat" though.

Anyway, with any MMO, especially a 3 realm setup, some changes in the lore must be made especially in this case. If the changes that have been made were not acceptable to Bethesda, do you think they would have allowed them? Is there an all knowing TES bible that controls the fate of how a TES game must be made? Ultimately Zenimax is using a proven system in the 3 realm system. My biggest dissapointment thus far is that they will use mirror classes for each faction instead of making each class different from faction to faction.

They cannot do another WoW or TES game rehash. It just will not work long term. They have to get far enough out there and give people something new to pull them in, and then give them an endgame that is different from what is out there to keep them there. I think the 3 faction and RvR does that and will give some faction pride which helps keep people around. End game raiding and the gear treadmill has been done to death. Its time for something new(ish).

There is nothing in the 3 realm setup that says races have to be locked into the 3 factions. They could have let people choose which faction (if any) to join.

It doesn't matter if it's acceptiable to Bethesda or not, they have to show support. Zenimax does not answer to Bethesda or the developers who created the SP game.

What is actually proven with a 3 realm system? DAoC is still around yet no one plays it. Guild Wars 2 and TSW both have a 3 faction system but the only thing they have proven is that this isn't the good old glory days of DAoC. The community has changed.

So you believe that there are only 3 ways to design a MMO; WoW, TES 'rehash' or DAoC RVR. Out of those options, I personally would rather have a TES 'rehash' than WoW or DAoC.

It is time for something new but we will never progress as long we keep coping other MMOs. There is no reason why ESO had to lock races into factions to mimic DAoC when in every other TES game we have had the freedom to pick our own factions.

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Originally posted by KuinnIt actually makes sense story wise. If two countries are at war, it simply would make no sense that half of the population on the opposing side is actually technically from your own country.

Its too bad the story its self doesnt make sense, Oblivion is coming with Molag-Bol and his army of daedra yet each of these tiny factions want to take on the empire, oblivion army, AND the other two factions all at the same time...very smart.

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Originally posted by DraneanI don't want to kill the fun of this topic but ehm.. World of Warcraft had a restriction to race/sides right? And that worked out pretty well as the game is stil being played 10 years later?

Personally I prefer to wait and see what the devs provide us and see from there, If I like it.. I will be playing it for a long time, If I don't like it.. I will look for something else :)

true but not restricted to just three races, that is a bit extreme for some and its definitely not large guild friendly.

make no mistake though, it wont be an issue for most people in general.

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Originally posted by Sir7681

Originally posted by Miblet

'...and everyone else lives peacefully together in regions OTHER than their own.'

Before the events of Skyrim the Thalmor had removed all non mers from Summerset Isle. Racism has always existed in all their games from this IP and the world they portray has always been one kept in check by force of arms. Peace was attained in many provinces through the Empire's armies, not because the local peoples thought the Empire was a great idea (just like the Romans that the Empire is based on).

"everyone else" refers to the people outisde the minority I mentioned that were racist. Nothing you said changes the fact that it was still a minority and not 90% of the population, and that somehow magicly there are no long term effects of this major war. No new racial grudges. Fighting along side races you hated didn't undo old wrongs and make enemies into friends. It's like...none of it ever happened...funny how that works when you insert a race based war into a pre-existing world but ignore all the pre-existing racial relationships.

All I'm saying is that this may be a good system for an MMO, but it doesn't fit this world.

Racism exists in the world, if you are alluding that the wars are racist then you need to look at the story. The Ebonheart pact are not fighting because the hate other races merely as a means to survive. As with other races there is motivation driven by differing ideals (power etc). That there are no argonians playable as the Daggerall Covenant would speak more towards Argonians possibly not being as prevelant in that region rather than xenophobic tendencies of an alliance in war.

Technically if left to players as well you could very well end up with a Daggerfall Covenant comprising of very few Redguard or Breton yet swarmed with beastfolk, would that be any more inkeeping with the lore?

You have to remember too that in 1000 years a lot of old hatreds and grudges vanish or are replaced with new ones, people change the target of hatred many times over the course of history. Equally friends can become enemies as easily over time. The accounts as given are somewhat sparse of the era they have set this in, which hopefully they will flesh out more in game through the books they are adding.

You are stating that it makes no sense in comparison to the setting 1000 years later. Look over the last few hundred years of our history and how countries attitudes have changed yet you find it implausable such would happen over 1000?

I agree it is a good system for an MMO and yes the lore has been added in order to make sense of the game, just as lore was added for Skyrim, Oblivion etc. That some people are upset with the lore and the decisions made I can understand but equally it is there IP and their lore to manipulate and make sense of as they will. It's not the first time the lore has been made to fit a game or expansion in this IP, yet people choose to get upset over this now?

Seems like there are a lot of DaoC fans that just played Skyrim and are acting like TES experts...

Well that three paragraph wiki is a joke for "lore", and quickly skimming across that "library" i don't think I saw anything that said three factions were impossible.

I never played daoc, but I would never let estranged roleplay fantasies take center stage over exciting pvp mechanics.

Could you please quote something usefull for me? I would appreciate it.

I read through the imperial library. I don't know if they've changed anything recently, but it looks like they fit all the lore for this game into a previously unoccuppied range of time from 2E 578 through 2E 603. So did they "change" the lore, or did they just add to it?

The fact that Septim is the one that takes over the Empire...that the empire is still standing AFTER the period for Septim to take it over... that it clearly states that none of the alliances ever truly threatened the Empire...that after TWO empires and 1000 years of slavery with races being moved from their homelands to the lands of their masters, being freed and still LIVING THERE...yet magically, the races are seperated by faction...not even slaves in the armies even though the lore states that both elves and orcs used slaves in their armies.

The lore, was clearly changed.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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The fact that Septim is the one that takes over the Empire...that the empire is still standing AFTER the period for Septim to take it over.

The Empire Septim led was not the same one as the Empire that existed in the time of TESO. Technically the Second Empire was officially dead after Savirien-Chorak had been assasinated as something akin to Tamriel's dark ages had begun. With people scrabbling for power in the vacuum.

Tiber Spetim comes along over 250 years after TESO takes place, and begins his legacy of conquoring lands and unifying what would become the Third Empire. This wasn't a case of he appeared and claimed rule, he took it by force.

As for the slaves it is true there would be plenty of the races spread across Tamriel but how many would be running free? Even those who had somehow aquired freedom would be in the minority and not representative of the general province. As I mentioned would having the Daggerfall Covenant made of largely beastfolk be any different to what is being argued against from a lore point?

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Originally posted by Miblet

The Empire Septim led was not the same one as the Empire that existed in the time of TESO. Technically the Second Empire was officially dead after Savirien-Chorak had been assasinated as something akin to Tamriel's dark ages had begun. With people scrabbling for power in the vacuum.

Tiber Spetim comes along over 250 years after TESO takes place, and begins his legacy of conquoring lands and unifying what would become the Third Empire. This wasn't a case of he appeared and claimed rule, he took it by force.

As for the slaves it is true there would be plenty of the races spread across Tamriel but how many would be running free? Even those who had somehow aquired freedom would be in the minority and not representative of the general province. As I mentioned would having the Daggerfall Covenant made of largely beastfolk be any different to what is being argued against from a lore point?

1. I stated Septim took over the Empire.

2. The Empire did not fall after the death of Savirien, read the links, During the time period of TESO, the Empire is attacked a grand total of ONE TIME and it never got passed Marrowind.

3. I clearly knew when Spetim came seeing as how I was pointing out how the Empire was still standing beyond this games timeperiod.

4. There were TWO Empires before the time of TESO, one stood for over 1000 years, when it fell, all the slaves of the first empire were freed and many stood in the lands they were enslaved in due to it being under the control of a new Empire and their increased status there.

5. Since when is it a requirement for a race to be in a majority to want to fight for their lands?!? Ooops, nore does it remove the fact that during this time period, slaves were used in the army of the dominion.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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2E 430 Potentate Savirien-Chorak, along with every one of his heirs, is murdered by the Dark Brotherhood. With the line of the Potentates extinguished, the Second Empire is left leaderless and quickly begins to dissolve due to civil wars and insurrection.

End of The Second Empire of Cyrodil. (An Empire led by the way by Akavari Potentates).

2E 572 Akavir invasion of Tamriel. Repelled eventually at Morrowind.

Notice this occurs AFTER the end of the second Empire and during the period known as the Interregnum.

2E 582 The timeframe of the game (the Alliance Wars).

2E 852 Tiber Wars. These wars lead to the creation of the Third Empire of Cyrodil.

The very thing you stated to read.

There is no current Empire at the time beyond the shell of the second empire and those fighting over the scraps.

5. I never said you had to be in the majority to fight for lands but as I said for someone complaining about lore you would be happy to see a Daggerfall Covenant made of argonians and very few Bretons and Nords if people chose to play a certain way?

Don't get me wrong I would like to have the option of free choice with races / factions but that would be a problem with mechanics not lore. It is more inkeeping with the lore to not have a minority represented as a majority and I doubt many players would relish the concpet of playing as a slave warrior (well given the railroading of many MMOs nowadays maybe some would ;p).

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There is nothing in the 3 realm setup that says races have to be locked into the 3 factions. They could have let people choose which faction (if any) to join.

It doesn't matter if it's acceptiable to Bethesda or not, they have to show support. Zenimax does not answer to Bethesda or the developers who created the SP game, there is no bible or Bethesda loremaster to allow them to do anything.

What is actually proven with a 3 realm system? DAoC is still around yet no one plays it. Guild Wars 2 and TSW both have a 3 faction system but the only thing they have proven is that this isn't the good old glory days of DAoC. The community has changed.

So you believe that there are only 3 ways to design a MMO; WoW, TES 'rehash' or DAoC RVR. Out of those options, I personally would rather have a TES 'rehash' than WoW or DAoC.

It is time for something new but we will never progress as long we keep coping other MMOs. There is no reason why ESO had to lock races into factions to mimic DAoC when in every other TES game we have had the freedom to pick our own factions.

Races: That is their decision and its just cosmetic in all reality from what I have read. In the end it only effects a very limited amount of players. You would be one of those people from the way it sounds.

As far as PvP on a 3 faction system goes, it works. There are many people out there who think DAOC is considered to be the best PvP MMO ever done in spite of it being old as dirt. 2 factions fighting each other gets stale. I have not played TSW, but I have played GW2. They did use a 3 realm system, but their implementation is poor because they do not allow one side to become more powerful than the other sides. This causes the underdogs to work together against the more powerful side. Instead they limit the amount of players in the PvP area and this hurts the overall tactics. Not to mention having to wait in queue to get into the supposed "open world" PvP area was stupid.

The first style of MMO would be a sandbox. Using a straight TES game style of play you would end up with this. I dont consider a copy of a TES game to be a good choice for an MMO honestly as its too open ended and would end up being something along the lines of UO or maybe Darkfall. That sandbox style of game comes with its own set of problems. I was there at the release of UO, Ive seen what happens when you give players total freedom.

The second style of game is the level/gear treadmill, or as I call the WoW formula which has been done to death. That is why WoW has so many subs in spite of the fact there are other good alternatives that use the same mechanic like Lotro, Rift or maybe Tera. People leave WoW for awhile to try something else, but in the end alot of people just go back to the same old because its comfortable and they never have to start over. The downside of this is that you constantly have to increase level cap, add new content to keep the masses entertained which in turn makes old content irrelevant.

The third style of MMO would be a level capped game where new content is released, old content is revised, but is based on lateral leveling via PvP and Xpacs. Mythic started this style of end game. One could argue that this is a gear treadmill as well and I would agree, but only to a point. The true end game in this style of game is PvP. The PvE is only there as a vehicle get ready for PvP.

I agree with you that we will never see any progress until we stop copying other MMOs. The real question is what can do that hasnt allready been done? I think any true innovation will be tough. I think the vast majority of innovation at this point will be done by taking exsisting ideas and changing them with true improvements.

Edit:

And yes, the community has changed. And not for the better for the most part.

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Originally posted by Vendac

Races: That is their decision and its just cosmetic in all reality from what I have read. In the end it only effects a very limited amount of players. You would be one of those people from the way it sounds.

As far as PvP on a 3 faction system goes, it works. There are many people out there who think DAOC is considered to be the best PvP MMO ever done in spite of it being old as dirt.

1. Races being limited effects far more in this IP dues to the IP being one of a SRPG which is the only reason why its being used, to use its popularity. DaoC 2 isnt being made by anyone for a reason, few care.

which brings me to

2. The only people that think DaoC had the best PvP ever, where hardcore DaoC fans. It was the first game with such a BAD SYSTEM that one of the realms was holding in game protests.

That is not a sign of good PvP. All DaoC did was bring themepark PvP to MMOs and was the first MMO to have developers say they didnt think players were smart enough to recognize an enemey if it was the same race by saying they wanted a CLEAR recognition of factions so there would be no confusion...hell, they are STILL saying it today with TESO and CU.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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I don't want to kill the fun of this topic but ehm.. World of Warcraft had a restriction to race/sides right? And that worked out pretty well as the game is stil being played 10 years later?

Personally I prefer to wait and see what the devs provide us and see from there, If I like it.. I will be playing it for a long time, If I don't like it.. I will look for something else :)

yes, but wow was based in a world where there was a good and an evil from the begining, one group lived in the world, and the other came to that world and tried to kill them all and claim the world as their own. As it progressed, more races were came along, some of which remained neutral for a while before the situation forced them to choose sides. There is no good and evil division between the playable races of the elder scrolls. it's never been there. trying to force that kind of a division into a world where it doesn't fit is a poorly thought out idea.

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I don't want to kill the fun of this topic but ehm.. World of Warcraft had a restriction to race/sides right? And that worked out pretty well as the game is stil being played 10 years later?

Personally I prefer to wait and see what the devs provide us and see from there, If I like it.. I will be playing it for a long time, If I don't like it.. I will look for something else :)

yes, but wow was based in a world where there was a good and an evil from the begining, one group lived in the world, and the other came to that world and tried to kill them all and claim the world as their own. As it progressed, more races were came along, some of which remained neutral for a while before the situation forced them to choose sides. There is no good and evil division between the playable races of the elder scrolls. it's never been there. trying to force that kind of a division into a world where it doesn't fit is a poorly thought out idea.

While you are correct, that is not the right way to defend the issue.

WoW had an open world, you could walk into the factions lands and attack their cities like any actual world at war. TESO however is using an IP that allows for inter-faction races and is also supped to a world at war yet magically you can only attack a central land, behind a magical barrier that protects everyones homelands...the only reason for the setup, as has been stated already, is due to their thinking if they dont create the pride there wont be any, if they dont seperate the races then players will be to confused to fight and if they dont guide you to the PvP then you yourself wont have a reason to do it.

Themepark PvP in the worst form because it allows ZERO room for anything other than what the developers spoon feed you.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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Originally posted by revy66Why not? I wouldn't have it any other way. It provides a sense of realism and immersion and ongoing conflict.

My problem is that the races they clumped together don't even get along, they just live in the same area. Most historical wars wasn't with people across the continent but from neighbors. That unfortunately distorts realism and immersion for me.

Not exactly true depending on what wars we're talking about. There have been many, many wars waged across continents as well as across seas. Neighboring wars usually entail deep seeded hatred between two nations/people. Look at the history between the french and english, yet look at the same two countries for an example of two side who pretty much hate each other coming together to defend against threats to europe, or their way of life.

Expansionist wars have taken place in a number of different circumstances, Rome warred all over the known world in it's time, they had many conscipted forces made of people that hated them, not unlike the argonian issue many bring up, it's actually something that contributed to their eventual fall.

Another example are the crusades many opposing armies coming together under the cross travelling across the known world to sack a city and take it, not to mention killing everyone in their path.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Vendac

Races: That is their decision and its just cosmetic in all reality from what I have read. In the end it only effects a very limited amount of players. You would be one of those people from the way it sounds.

As far as PvP on a 3 faction system goes, it works. There are many people out there who think DAOC is considered to be the best PvP MMO ever done in spite of it being old as dirt.

1. Races being limited effects far more in this IP dues to the IP being one of a SRPG which is the only reason why its being used, to use its popularity. DaoC 2 isnt being made by anyone for a reason, few care.

which brings me to

2. The only people that think DaoC had the best PvP ever, where hardcore DaoC fans. It was the first game with such a BAD SYSTEM that one of the realms was holding in game protests.

That is not a sign of good PvP. All DaoC did was bring themepark PvP to MMOs and was the first MMO to have developers say they didnt think players were smart enough to recognize an enemey if it was the same race by saying they wanted a CLEAR recognition of factions so there would be no confusion...hell, they are STILL saying it today with TESO and CU.

Such a narrow minded view...

1: Yes, TES is a sandbox. Do sandboxes work well for the general public when they include PvP. They do not. Once again, go look at UO (pre Trammel) as a shining example of a sandbox with PvP. Chaos is the word that comes to mind, lol. You have to split the PvP off into its own area which destroys the essense of a sandbox does it not?

2: Yep, I remember the in game protests on Pendragon. Do you even know what it is was about? Let me refresh your memory a sec: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/57559 <-- Good over view of the issues, but hardly PvP based other than people like to PvP in Emain Macha because it was the easiest. Check your facts please...

And what is wrong with clearly being able to identify your enemy at range in a game based on how they look? Is honestly not being able to look like whatever race you want going to destroy your immersion that much even though the stats and sklils you have available to you are exactly the same?

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Originally posted by Miblet

Racism exists in the world, if you are alluding that the wars are racist then you need to look at the story.

If the war is not based in racism, then why should races be locked to the factions? And again I say that I'm not argueing that racism doesn't exist in the game, or that certain places aren't predominant to one race, I'm saying that the other races DO EXIST in those places, and that the racism isn't on the scale that would exclude any race from fighting for whatever faction they choose to fight for. There is nothing that would place that kind of a restriction on the factions. it doesn't make sense. Yes, 1000 years can make and break relationships between races, but what it can't do is make/break a relationships, but what can't happen is inserting a brutal bloody war into an already existing history and have nothing after the war be different. They're adding a war into the history, but not adding any of the long lasting effects that would have come with it...Wars don't leave worlds unchanged, especially wars on this scale. To pretend that three races fighting along side each other against the rest of the world, to say nothing of the other threats, wouldn't form some kind of bond between those races in one way or another is just foolish. Defend the system if you want, I've already said it might make for a better MMO, but stop acting like the problems with it don't exist. I know it's not gonna change, it's insane to expect it to...I don't. That doesn't change the problems with it.

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Originally posted by jtcgs

While you are correct, that is not the right way to defend the issue.

WoW had an open world, you could walk into the factions lands and attack their cities like any actual world at war. TESO however is using an IP that allows for inter-faction races and is also supped to a world at war yet magically you can only attack a central land, behind a magical barrier that protects everyones homelands...the only reason for the setup, as has been stated already, is due to their thinking if they dont create the pride there wont be any, if they dont seperate the races then players will be to confused to fight and if they dont guide you to the PvP then you yourself wont have a reason to do it.

Themepark PvP in the worst form because it allows ZERO room for anything other than what the developers spoon feed you.

Do you really want full open world PvP? I would go for it, but most people do not want the fear of being killed by other players at anytime. By doing this they actually can increase their player base as they can offer safe haven for the PvE types but a themepark for the PvPers.

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Originally posted by Vendac

Originally posted by jtcgs

While you are correct, that is not the right way to defend the issue.

WoW had an open world, you could walk into the factions lands and attack their cities like any actual world at war. TESO however is using an IP that allows for inter-faction races and is also supped to a world at war yet magically you can only attack a central land, behind a magical barrier that protects everyones homelands...the only reason for the setup, as has been stated already, is due to their thinking if they dont create the pride there wont be any, if they dont seperate the races then players will be to confused to fight and if they dont guide you to the PvP then you yourself wont have a reason to do it.

Themepark PvP in the worst form because it allows ZERO room for anything other than what the developers spoon feed you.

Do you really want full open world PvP? I would go for it, but most people do not want the fear of being killed by other players at anytime. By doing this they actually can increase their player base as they can offer safe haven for the PvE types but a themepark for the PvPers.

See my point #1 on my last post for more on this....

WoW has open world PvP and it is one of the most populated mmos and the server i played on was one of the most populated PvP servers Illidan.

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Racism exists in the world, if you are alluding that the wars are racist then you need to look at the story.

If the war is not based in racism, then why should races be locked to the factions? And again I say that I'm not argueing that racism doesn't exist in the game, or that certain places aren't predominant to one race, I'm saying that the other races DO EXIST in those places, and that the racism isn't on the scale that would exclude any race from fighting for whatever faction they choose to fight for. There is nothing that would place that kind of a restriction on the factions. it doesn't make sense.

As I said it makes more sense than having a faction where the vast minority are the majority. Neither fit perfectly. I still can't understand why people would argue it's horrible from a lore aspect, while ignoring what they are asking for is also horrible from a lore aspect.

Yes, 1000 years can make and break relationships between races, but what it can't do is make/break a relationships, but what can't happen is inserting a brutal bloody war into an already existing history and have nothing after the war be different. They're adding a war into the history, but not adding any of the long lasting effects that would have come with it...Wars don't leave worlds unchanged, especially wars on this scale. To pretend that three races fighting along side each other against the rest of the world, to say nothing of the other threats, wouldn't form some kind of bond between those races in one way or another is just foolish.

300 years pass between the time of TESO and the next major event. Nothing at all is recorded lore wise between those two points. Nobody is saying there couldn't have been influences or a major impact as nothing is written between the gap. It's a blank slate awaiting background to be filled or not as seen fit by the owners of the IP. Bear in mind 300 years is a long span of time and more than a few generations for bonds to break or enmity to fester.

Defend the system if you want, I've already said it might make for a better MMO, but stop acting like the problems with it don't exist. I know it's not gonna change, it's insane to expect it to...I don't. That doesn't change the problems with it.

I'm aware there are potential problems, however many people arguing about the lore also ignore problems with the system they prefer. If the lore means nothing to someone and they would prefer a different mechanic fine, nothing wrong with that at all, but to say something doesn't fit the lore then propose something else which also has issues lorewise baffles me.