I find that as I get older, I tend to prefer apophatic practice; but certainly when I was younger in the Dharma, I was very enthusiastic about cataphatic practices (Greg, this is your cue to lecture me about misusing Greek words).

I do like practicing Chö liturgies though.

Well, Chö is a very phatic practice, if you catch my drift.

Well, singing pretty liturgies accompanied with a drum and bell is pretty phatic. But I emphatically insist that Chö itself requires no phat.

I find that as I get older, I tend to prefer apophatic practice; but certainly when I was younger in the Dharma, I was very enthusiastic about cataphatic practices (Greg, this is your cue to lecture me about misusing Greek words).

I do like practicing Chö liturgies though.

Well, Chö is a very phatic practice, if you catch my drift.

Well, it is more phagic than phatic, but anyway...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Nope. Intelligent people will understand that I am not saying that, and stupid people are not my problem.

Oh, okay, I get it: anybody that misinterprets your post because of it's lack of clarity is stupid.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

I find that as I get older, I tend to prefer apophatic practice; but certainly when I was younger in the Dharma, I was very enthusiastic about cataphatic practices (Greg, this is your cue to lecture me about misusing Greek words).

I do like practicing Chö liturgies though.

Well, Chö is a very phatic practice, if you catch my drift.

Well, it is more phagic than phatic, but anyway...

I was Copraphagic, now I'm more Kataphatic, and soon likely to be Catatonic.

Nope. Intelligent people will understand that I am not saying that, and stupid people are not my problem.

Oh, okay, I get it: anybody that misinterprets your post because of it's lack of clarity is stupid.

The post was pretty clear. If one does not have pure vision, don't call out others for their lack of pure vision. If one does, one is a hypocrite, it does not matter if one is a beginner or a high tulku. I made absolutely no assessment of any particular person's mental state. There, now even stupid people reading this thread should be clear about it.

The post was pretty clear. If one does not have pure vision, don't call out others for their lack of pure vision. If one does, one is a hypocrite, it does not matter if one is a beginner or a high tulku. I made absolutely no assessment of any particular person's mental state. There, now even stupid people reading this thread should be clear about it.

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

The post was pretty clear. If one does not have pure vision, don't call out others for their lack of pure vision. If one does, one is a hypocrite, it does not matter if one is a beginner or a high tulku. I made absolutely no assessment of any particular person's mental state. There, now even stupid people reading this thread should be clear about it.

Malcolm what do you think about training in all paramitas, bodhicitta, kyerim and dzogrim, in fact - by all those trainings - i do train in pretending beeing awaken. Is it also worthless becouse of mental afflictions?

Pāramitās are not pāramitās unless one is free from grasping, right?
Bodhicitta with grasping is defective bodhicitta, right?
The creation stage is defective without the completion stage, right?

So in all of this, nongrasping in the most important point.

Well said, reminds me of Hui Hai.

Q: You said earlier that wisdom is the function of the Way of Sudden Enlightenment, but what is wisdom?
A: If you understand that the nature of non-duality is voidness, then you are liberated. However, if you understand that the nature of duality is not void, then you are not liberated. Thus, wisdom is understanding what is right and what is wrong. It is also recognizing universal substance and its functions. The understanding of the voidness of duality is the substance of wisdom, while liberation, which is never allowing any thought whatsoever of existence or non-existence, good of evil, love or hate, etc., to arise, is known as understanding the function of the voidness of duality.

Q: Where can one enter the doorway to this understanding?
A: Through the perfection of charity (dana-paramita).

Q: Buddha has said that the six paramitas are the action of the Bodhisattva path, so how can we enter the doorway to this understanding by practicing, as you have said, only the dana-paramita?
A: People who are confused or deluded do not understand that the other five paramitas all evolve from the dana-paramita. Therefore, in practicing the dana-paramita, one also fulfills the practice of the other five paramitas.

Q: For what reason is it called the dana-paramita?
A: "Dana" means the perfection of charity.

Q: What things can be given up in the name of charity?
A: Clinging to thoughts of duality can be given up.

Q: Just what does this mean?
A: It means to give up clinging, in the name of charity, to thoughts of good and evil, existence and non-existence, love and hate, emptiness and fullness, concentration and non-concentration, pure and impure, etc. In the name of charity, give up all of them. Then, and only then, can you attain the stage of the voidness of duality, while, at the same time, letting neither a thought about the voidness of opposites nor about charity arise. This is the genuine practice of the dana-paramita, which is also known as absolute detachment from all phenomena. This is only the voidness of all dharma-nature, which means that always and everywhere is just no-mind. If one can attain the stage of no-mind everywhere, no form will be perceived, because our self-nature is void, containing no form. This, then, is true Reality, which is also called the wonderful form or body of the Tathagata. The Diamond Sutra says: "Those who have abandoned all forms are called Buddhas."

Q: But the Buddha spoke about six paramitas, so how can you reasonably say that one paramita (the dana-paramita) can include the other five?
A: The Sutra of the Benefits of Thinking says: "The Jalavidyadeva spoke to Brahmadeva as follows: 'Bodhisattvas who abandon all defilements are said to have completed the dana-paramita. This is the perfection of charity. If there is the non-arising of a single thought, they are said to have completed the sila-paramita. This the perfection of discipline. If there is no injury to or harm by any dharma, they are said to have completed the ksanti-paramita. This is the perfection of patience. If there is non-attachment to all dharmas, they are said to have completed the virya-paramita. This is the perfection of zeal. If there is non-dwelling on any dharma whatsoever, they are said to have completed the dhyana-paramita. This is the perfection of serenity. If there is no use of sophistry in speaking of any dharma, they are said to have completed the prajna-paramita. This is the perfection of wisdom. These are also known as the six Dharmas without any difference. The first one involves giving; the second one, non-arising of sensation; the third one, the non-arising of thought; the fourth one, being detached from form; the fifth one, non-dwelling in any dharma; and the sixth one, speaking without sophistry. These six paramitas are given different names expediently to meet different needs, but the wonderful principle underlying them all is not different. Thus, if one thing is abandoned, then everything is abandoned; and if one thing does not arise, then nothing whatsoever arises. Deluded people cannot understand this, and even insist that these six paramitas, or methods, are different. Thus, these foolish people, clinging to the variety of methods, revolve endlessly on the Wheel-of-Life-and-Death. Therefore, I urge all you students just to practice the one method of the dana-paramita, which, since it includes completely all dharmas, must, logically, include the other five paramitas. "'

"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain

"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."– Longchenpa.

The post was pretty clear. If one does not have pure vision, don't call out others for their lack of pure vision. If one does, one is a hypocrite, it does not matter if one is a beginner or a high tulku. I made absolutely no assessment of any particular person's mental state. There, now even stupid people reading this thread should be clear about it.

The kleśas are not something to remove from the mind, the wisdoms are not something to add to the mind; the kleśas are themselves self-liberated wisdom when one cuts through grasping even though there is nothing to cut.

Therefore, cutting through grasping is the actual practice of all paths, from hinayāna to atiyoga. The only difference between the yānas, lower to higher, is the coarseness of the grasping one cuts through.

Wait, so are you saying that if we cut through grasping, our afflictions will naturally liberate? So, is it the nature of things to self-liberate?

The process I'm taking myself through mentally is that because everything is empty and impermanent, everything is naturally liberating itself, however our grasping keeps our minds from doing the same, even though in a sense it already is liberating itself each moment and we don't correcly perceive (or cognize?) the reality of that.

"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain

CTR (In politically incorrect mode) "I visited one of my students in a mental hospital..he was depressed. A lot of the other patients were psychotic, shouting and waving their arms, wildly or muttering.
Don't kid yourself you are any different..you just don't do it out loud".

CTR (In politically incorrect mode) "I visited one of my students in a mental hospital..he was depressed. A lot of the other patients were psychotic, shouting and waving their arms, wildly or muttering.
Don't kid yourself you are any different..you just don't do it out loud".

I can 100% identify with that!

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

The kleśas are not something to remove from the mind, the wisdoms are not something to add to the mind; the kleśas are themselves self-liberated wisdom when one cuts through grasping even though there is nothing to cut.

Therefore, cutting through grasping is the actual practice of all paths, from hinayāna to atiyoga. The only difference between the yānas, lower to higher, is the coarseness of the grasping one cuts through.

Wait, so are you saying that if we cut through grasping, our afflictions will naturally liberate? So, is it the nature of things to self-liberate?

Things are neither liberated nor unliberated, The nature of self-liberation is total nongrasping.

CTR (In politically incorrect mode) "I visited one of my students in a mental hospital..he was depressed. A lot of the other patients were psychotic, shouting and waving their arms, wildly or muttering.
Don't kid yourself you are any different..you just don't do it out loud".

I can 100% identify with that!

I know that quote and resemble it too! Didn't know it was from Trungpa.

If there is anything new that needs to be added please feel free to contact a staff member.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde