Quick Links

Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA

The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.

Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Huh...I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the argument he's making there.

He does have a point that a move like this will likely make shutdowns more common.

But it’s not the employees who should be punished if the government shuts down.

If the government cannot pass a budget, there should be an immediate election, for legislative and executive branch

Everyone should be up for election too

I feel like that's ripe for backfiring. Wait until poll numbers for the opposing party are unfavorable and then hold up government until special elections occur.

The reason this functions in parliamentary democracies is because they are basically unicameral for all intents and purposes and there's no filibuster so everything passes with a majority. This creates a direct link between having a majority and being able to pass a budget as long as your party/coallition isn't turning on you, which prevents this kind of fuckery.

The US's clownshoes freakshow of a governmental structure has so many failure points it's difficult to structure a rule to effectively dissolve a government for not functioning on a basic level.

It's probably better to just reverse the silly interpretation that suggests that without a budget nothing gets paid for and instead just go with "No budget, same funding as last time".

PS - Also people hate elections, so forcing a government to fall in a parliamentary system is not something you do quickly or just for kicks.

You know, it's been 3 weeks now, and I gotta say how amazing this whole thing is. Like, the senate was completely fine with this right up until threw a bitch fit, refusing to accept that he wasn't going to get his wall and loudly proclaiming that he'd be happy to own the shut down. Then Paul Ryan ~when the right course of action was eminently clear and he had nothing to lose by simply holding a vote and forcing trump to capitulate or veto~ refused to hold the vote so as to not put president crybaby pee pants in a situation where he'd have to stand alone. Followed by weeks of people being forced to do their jobs without pay while mitch mcconel turtles away in the senate so that he doesn't have to be caught offside by the president.

Like, we are looking at an existensial crisis that will fuck up the federal government for decades brought on by a god damn vanity project that no one in the preident's party has the balls to say "fuck off already, you lost on this and it ain't happening".

I'm guess someone told him what a disaster declaring an emergency would be, so he'll probably announce one by tweet at 5am tomorrow.

The idea is in his head so now we are just waiting for his tantrum to boil over. Gonna need to wait for the next set of bad polls for him or bad economic news or a segment on Fox and Friends calling him a failure for not getting a Wall.

In the last thread someone floated the idea that Trump is waiting until 22 days in to call the emergency so that if the Dems reopen the government he gets to have had the longest shutdown in US history.

Multiple Republicans in the conservative group have privately raised their concerns with the Trump administration, fearing it would lead to a years-long legal standoff that Democrats could win while setting a dangerous precedent for the presidency, according to more than a dozen lawmakers and GOP aides. They want Trump to hold out for a deal with Democrats, regardless of how long the partial government shutdown drags on.

Also, according to Freedom Caucus member Justin Amash, the back pay bill that just passed is not just for this shut down, but a rules change for any and all future shutdowns.

Justin Amash is a House Rep, member of the Freedom Caucus, and just voted that federal employees should totally not get paychecks whenever the President throws a temper tantrum.

I mean, we can make it so that Government Shutdowns don't happen and this sort of hostage-taking showmanship can't be attempted again

Can you do that outside of a Constitutional amendment?

Yes...ish.

Congress sets the budget or doesn't causing a funding gap. Congress passed the law that causes shutdowns to happen during a funding gap.

Congress can change what happens when a budget isn't passed so gaps don't happen (such as continuing previous budget), or how funding gaps impact operation (such as returning to the Carter-era handling where operations continue while departments have money on hand so shutdowns aren't all at once)

The -ish comes in because a future Congress can say bother that noise and undo it and plunge us into another shutdown anyway.

I think they could structure the law in such a way to discourage that, though. Currently, inaction leads to a shutdown, so everyone can just say, "Oh, I don't want a shutdown, but what can we doooooo" and then sit on their hands and a shutdown occurs.

If there was a law that said that, in the event of inaction, government keeps trucking along at current funding levels (or whatever), a shutdown would still be possible, but only if Congress specifically passed a bill to shut the government down and the president signed it. Which is exceptionally unlikely to ever occur.

Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

I know I'm kinda preaching to the choir here, but, like, I just want to reiterate that a huge concrete or steel wall is such an outdated and useless contraption that it's not even funny. If you were honestly serious about having the Corps put in a "wall", what we'd do is put in a combination cyclone and concertina razorwire barrier with the objective of slowing down an intruder long enough for the drones, cameras, observation posts, and/or foot patrols to log them and track them for apprehension. It does MORE to use this system for a lot less money. The only objective it doesn't accomplish is be a big giant useless monument to an old white racist though, so here we are!

I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

Yes you've correctly identified the position we're in.

The thing a bunch of people seem to forget is that given the choice the other side would rather just not have a federal government. For them having all the employees quit and find private sector jobs leaving all governmental departments crippled is a net good. It is in fact a desirable outcome. It's why they have no problem taking the hostage, because not only do they not mind shooting the hostage, they really want to shoot the hostage.

I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

There is another option here; strictly speaking mitch is only a problem if he's speaker of the house. If the republican senators were to oust him then they could replace him with someone who is in a safe seat and then force trump to either veto or capitulate with the knowledge that they would back the dems in overturning the veto.

Because the polls are getting worse all the time for trump and these guys actually have to consider their political future (unlike trump who is frikkin' done in 2020).

I'm kinda worried here, because I don't see a viable exit anymore. Mitch McConnell will not cave, because he's scared of being primaried. Trump will not cave, because he doesn't care about anything but winning his toy.

Dems shouldn't cave, because it just means this will keep happening every time Trump wants something, but this puts them in the position of being the guy in the action movie whose wife is being tortured until he gives up the launch codes that let the terrorists nuke the eastern seaboard, and that guy always frickin caves.

I think it ends when major airports shut down as the workers either walk off or quit in disgust. The cascade of bad press that would happen when the countries air network gets paralyzed should hopefully spark some motion.

What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

I think some people are going to cave and start yelling at the Dems, "UGH JUST GIVE HIM THE FUCKING WALL MONEY ALREADY."

Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.

What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

You know, it's been 3 weeks now, and I gotta say how amazing this whole thing is. Like, the senate was completely fine with this right up until threw a bitch fit, refusing to accept that he wasn't going to get his wall and loudly proclaiming that he'd be happy to own the shut down. Then Paul Ryan ~when the right course of action was eminently clear and he had nothing to lose by simply holding a vote and forcing trump to capitulate or veto~ refused to hold the vote so as to not put president crybaby pee pants in a situation where he'd have to stand alone. Followed by weeks of people being forced to do their jobs without pay while mitch mcconel turtles away in the senate so that he doesn't have to be caught offside by the president.

Like, we are looking at an existensial crisis that will fuck up the federal government for decades brought on by a god damn vanity project that no one in the preident's party has the balls to say "fuck off already, you lost on this and it ain't happening".

After spending 2 years in total control of the Government and not bothering with it. Republicans could have put $Texas in their previous Reconciliation budget bills and Democrats wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. But they didn't. Now, suddenly, when they're out of power in the House it's worth rampant deprivation to force the funding issue.

What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

I think the slow/shutdown of airports and how that effects the wealthy/lobbyist has teeth.

What would that public pressure look like? An increasing majority blames Trump for the wall, and he doesn't care. Most MAGA types support the shutdown because they either don't think it affects them, or don't care because it hurts the right people. Hannity will keep telling Trump that capitulating is weak.

Like, which public is going to put pressure on who to make this stop?

I think this is a thing we don't talk about here for very specific and very good reasons.

At what point does the horrific damage being done become enough of a justification though?

2020? People are feeling the pain after 3 weeks. Another 23 months (or whatever) isn't tenable. That level of failure state would see the US becoming a literal failed state. I wouldn't want to begin to calculate the literal loss of life it would represent.

I think there is a time line in which Democrats have to act in order to prevent a literal decent into anarchy. I don't know what it is, but I think it's less than 2 years. Maybe it's still months or even quarters away, but it's a lot closer than the next Presidential election period.

Even betting that Trump loses reelection, that's over a year away. This is getting solved way before that. And yes, likely with the Dems caving before the second missed paycheck.

I've already contacted both my senators and my rep, multiple times, and told them not to surrender to Trump even if it means keeping the government shut down for six years. And I plan to keep contacting them for as long as the shutdown lasts.