SE is not a lazy company. SE is not an energetic company. They will not go out of their way to find things that need nerfs but they will also not ignore receiving thousands of emails, GM Calls and forum requests to fix something.

Stop complaining about game mechanics. The copy of the game that the guy with 15/15 NNI gear is identical to the one you bought. Stop complaining about the game just because you don't have two SCH friends or two SMN players in your LS to PD your events.

The FFXI community is going out of it's way to make the game more and more obtuse by complaining about "problems" in the game outside of the realm of glitches and blatant mistakes, you know, actual problems.

SE is not a lazy company. SE is not an energetic company. They will not go out of their way to find things that need nerfs but they will also not ignore receiving thousands of emails, GM Calls and forum requests to fix something.

Stop complaining about game mechanics. The copy of the game that the guy with 15/15 NNI gear is identical to the one you bought. Stop complaining about the game just because you don't have two SCH friends or two SMN players in your LS to PD your events.

The FFXI community is going out of it's way to make the game more and more obtuse by complaining about "problems" in the game outside of the realm of glitches and blatant mistakes, you know, actual problems.

Stop snitching.

I take it you're upset because you haven't gotten to 15/15 NNI gear yet?

____________________________

Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi) 1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!

They nerfed things before they had official forums, they nerfed things nobody wanted to be nerfed.

If they nerf something it's either because it's over-used or because they know it's stupid. People complaining about something doesn't do **** all, if it did FFXI wouldn't of lost a ton of players due to crappy content the last few years.

This guy must be a troll. Most SCH's aren't mad about embrava change, as much as SE kilsl us over and over.

They gave all helixes to a low level. They gave out AF quest spell They couldn't find something good for us, so they give us embrava. They take away our regain and give us refresh?

What would you have a sch do that it can specialize in?

With the exception of stuning sch can do little and we have given way most of what we know.

As for 15/15, once salvage 2.0 comes out no one will care for that gear.

I have to disagree about Scholars not being mad about Embrava, because that was one of the main things that defined a Scholar. With pretty much every other aspect of their abilities covered by other jobs more effectively (Healing, Nuking, etc), Embrava was kind of their only stand out feature. With that taking a huge hit in duration and effect, one of the only reasons Scholars are ever brought to something will be over and done with. Scholars weren't meant to specialize in anything, just be a White Mage/ Black Mage mix. Scholars were meant to be a more magic-heavy version of Red Mage, as Red Mages were by design supposed to at least try to melee, hence their gear, some of their spells, etc.

As for the new Salvage zones, until we get the stats on the new armor sets being added, you can't really say that no one will care about the Nyzul Isle Uncharted Region gear once. Neo-Limbus showed that while some of the new pieces can be great for their slots, the other pieces are still as lackluster as their NQ versions in the face of Nyzul gear, so until the gear stats for those new sets are released, immediately presuming that Nyzul gear will be obsolete is just the wrong way to approach it.

The copy of the game that the guy with 15/15 NNI gear is identical to the one you bought. Stop complaining about the game just because you don't have two SCH friends or two SMN players in your LS to PD your events.

Yes, the copy of the game is the same. The .dat swaps, fillmode, clipper, apradar, flee hacks, etc. that were used to get to 15/15 are not. It has very little to do with the amount of SMN or SCH that I know, and much more to do with me not willing to cheat (or join a group in which others cheat) in order to win the event.

This guy must be a troll. Most SCH's aren't mad about embrava change, as much as SE kilsl us over and over.

They gave all helixes to a low level. They gave out AF quest spell They couldn't find something good for us, so they give us embrava. They take away our regain and give us refresh?

What would you have a sch do that it can specialize in?

With the exception of stuning sch can do little and we have given way most of what we know.

As for 15/15, once salvage 2.0 comes out no one will care for that gear.

I have to disagree about Scholars not being mad about Embrava, because that was one of the main things that defined a Scholar. With pretty much every other aspect of their abilities covered by other jobs more effectively (Healing, Nuking, etc), Embrava was kind of their only stand out feature. With that taking a huge hit in duration and effect, one of the only reasons Scholars are ever brought to something will be over and done with. Scholars weren't meant to specialize in anything, just be a White Mage/ Black Mage mix. Scholars were meant to be a more magic-heavy version of Red Mage, as Red Mages were by design supposed to at least try to melee, hence their gear, some of their spells, etc.

As for the new Salvage zones, until we get the stats on the new armor sets being added, you can't really say that no one will care about the Nyzul Isle Uncharted Region gear once. Neo-Limbus showed that while some of the new pieces can be great for their slots, the other pieces are still as lackluster as their NQ versions in the face of Nyzul gear, so until the gear stats for those new sets are released, immediately presuming that Nyzul gear will be obsolete is just the wrong way to approach it.

I guess that is where we are different. I was a 75 scholar before embrava was even in the game. In abby after +2 hands were gotten, embrava was never even wanted, due to holding back and procing it. If a sch even was there, as it would usually be a blu or blm.

I always felt storms and helixs is what defined me. As well as AoE cure buffs. As at 75 we were the ones for that. VW embrabas not used. Even on my ADL runs, they don't care for embrava as they perefer smns and whm's. So yea embrva never seemed to define me as a sch.

I have trained and shown quite a few blus how to skill chain and max dmg. It's actually quite funny that someone on ffxiah.com posted sch/ng and sidewinder with rune bow. Like he was the first. This has been known about for a good year. I could say I practiced it when expiermenting solo skill chains. But I found it not as effective as other weapon skills. If I posted it online, well I would be laughed at like I have been for banish, or /drk or even shattersoul as I was one of the originals who posted it. But people reply better things to merit.

A sch is not defined for trying to enhancebetter than a rdm, heal better than a whm or nuke harder than a blm. A sch is defined by making the events they go in go smoothly. I do hope SE tweeks our spells now that they nerfed it somewhat though.

I prefer more varied tactics actually being viable. Throw Embrava at it wasn't any different than throwing KC DRKs at a problem back in the day. Did you win? Sure. Was it fun? Not always.

Sadly, some people gauge fun solely on how often you're invited to things. While one should never aspire to never get invited to content, situations of "must haves" lead to a lot of exclusion, especially when the job roster has grown from game's original 15 to soon 22. You're gonna have some overlap in spots, and that's okay, but you can't really have situations where one job is completely overlapped by others in everything. SCH isn't in this position. Even if you can sub all Helix spells, they do the most damage with them. They're also the king of regens, even with Embrava in its pending state. They can also do unique things with (de)buffs that not every class can do (without subbing SCH, but then further limited by stratagem recasts).

Is this to say SCH still can't get some new toys? Nope. With the Helix adjustments, I wouldn't say T2s are really needed now. T2 storm spells, on the other hand, could have a purpose. Improve Adloquium and the Animus spells. It's a modest start, but still proof that things can be done while remaining themely to the class. They should just be glad they're not RDM, as I suspect some were waiting for me to bring it up, for how some insist it remains and plays like a SCH-2.

For the record I am at 0/15 NNI gear. I was just getting into the event. I have two friends online who have been busting their asses to get to 500 enhancing skill and the train has left the station. If you don't like the tactics people use, then don't use them. There is a tremendous amount of butthurt, not only about cheating (hacks and mods) but just over people who have managed to gather the right jobs that just ******* work. Year after year we lose devices that work because the casual player can't keep up because he isn't willing to ditch his friends in an ls or isn't willing to play the cookie cutter jobs.

Some of us like busting our asses on optimal jobs in order to gear less optimal jobs that we happen to love.

For those of us stuck in the middle we are forced to either take the nerfs and trudge through boring, watered down events with the masses of incapable players or pay merc groups to get where we want to be.

I can't wait to win level 80's five times to get a piece of gear. Maybe we could bring a BLM...set up a skill chain...I so miss the old, dark days.

This guy must be a troll. Most SCH's aren't mad about embrava change, as much as SE kilsl us over and over.

They gave all helixes to a low level. They gave out AF quest spell They couldn't find something good for us, so they give us embrava. They take away our regain and give us refresh?

What would you have a sch do that it can specialize in?

With the exception of stuning sch can do little and we have given way most of what we know.

As for 15/15, once salvage 2.0 comes out no one will care for that gear.

I have to disagree about Scholars not being mad about Embrava, because that was one of the main things that defined a Scholar. With pretty much every other aspect of their abilities covered by other jobs more effectively (Healing, Nuking, etc), Embrava was kind of their only stand out feature. With that taking a huge hit in duration and effect, one of the only reasons Scholars are ever brought to something will be over and done with. Scholars weren't meant to specialize in anything, just be a White Mage/ Black Mage mix. Scholars were meant to be a more magic-heavy version of Red Mage, as Red Mages were by design supposed to at least try to melee, hence their gear, some of their spells, etc.

As for the new Salvage zones, until we get the stats on the new armor sets being added, you can't really say that no one will care about the Nyzul Isle Uncharted Region gear once. Neo-Limbus showed that while some of the new pieces can be great for their slots, the other pieces are still as lackluster as their NQ versions in the face of Nyzul gear, so until the gear stats for those new sets are released, immediately presuming that Nyzul gear will be obsolete is just the wrong way to approach it.

I guess that is where we are different. I was a 75 scholar before embrava was even in the game. In abby after +2 hands were gotten, embrava was never even wanted, due to holding back and procing it. If a sch even was there, as it would usually be a blu or blm.

I always felt storms and helixs is what defined me. As well as AoE cure buffs. As at 75 we were the ones for that. VW embrabas not used. Even on my ADL runs, they don't care for embrava as they perefer smns and whm's. So yea embrva never seemed to define me as a sch.

I have trained and shown quite a few blus how to skill chain and max dmg. It's actually quite funny that someone on ffxiah.com posted sch/ng and sidewinder with rune bow. Like he was the first. This has been known about for a good year. I could say I practiced it when expiermenting solo skill chains. But I found it not as effective as other weapon skills. If I posted it online, well I would be laughed at like I have been for banish, or /drk or even shattersoul as I was one of the originals who posted it. But people reply better things to merit.

A sch is not defined for trying to enhancebetter than a rdm, heal better than a whm or nuke harder than a blm. A sch is defined by making the events they go in go smoothly. I do hope SE tweeks our spells now that they nerfed it somewhat though.

It's just that in any real situation, a Scholar should be in the backline. If they're building up enough TP to be able to weaponskill, then I have to question a number of things (their gear swaps, their groups letting them melee, etc). Not to mention, given all the gear I've brought on Scholar and absolutely need for various reasons, I wouldn't be able to allocate anywhere close to enough space for some sort of TP set up, let alone a weaponskill setup. Can Scholar melee? Sure. Were they meant to melee? No. No more than Dark Knights were meant to be a nuking class because they have access to some low tier elemental nukes. Red Mages were meant to be a "battle mage" not Scholar.

The copy of the game that the guy with 15/15 NNI gear is identical to the one you bought. Stop complaining about the game just because you don't have two SCH friends or two SMN players in your LS to PD your events.

Yes, the copy of the game is the same. The .dat swaps, fillmode, clipper, apradar, flee hacks, etc. that were used to get to 15/15 are not. It has very little to do with the amount of SMN or SCH that I know, and much more to do with me not willing to cheat (or join a group in which others cheat) in order to win the event.

Kirschy (If I'm remembering the name correctly) just recently posted a video of her group clearing a floor 100 win using DDx3 COR and SCHx2 without hacks. Their group worked together, took over a month to get a win but then held a 38% win rate without hacks. The cheating, while a helpful but dangerous gamble, is not what what is absolutely needed get wins for a group that's properly geared and can communicate well. The effective formula is (Four people who can dish out spike DMG) + Embrava up ALL THE GODDAMNED TIME.

People complained about cheaters prospering, SE investigated, they made a reasonable change in ******* with the lamp dats...and then made an unreasonable change to SCH.

If people ***** they will overeact; It's that simple. People who defend stupid changes like this are either: obtuse for the pleasure of being an internet tough guy or never got to be a part of an effective group.

I prefer more varied tactics actually being viable. Throw Embrava at it wasn't any different than throwing KC DRKs at a problem back in the day. Did you win? Sure. Was it fun? Not always.

Sadly, some people gauge fun solely on how often you're invited to things. While one should never aspire to never get invited to content, situations of "must haves" lead to a lot of exclusion, especially when the job roster has grown from game's original 15 to soon 22. You're gonna have some overlap in spots, and that's okay, but you can't really have situations where one job is completely overlapped by others in everything. SCH isn't in this position. Even if you can sub all Helix spells, they do the most damage with them. They're also the king of regens, even with Embrava in its pending state. They can also do unique things with (de)buffs that not every class can do (without subbing SCH, but then further limited by stratagem recasts).

Is this to say SCH still can't get some new toys? Nope. With the Helix adjustments, I wouldn't say T2s are really needed now. T2 storm spells, on the other hand, could have a purpose. Improve Adloquium and the Animus spells. It's a modest start, but still proof that things can be done while remaining themely to the class. They should just be glad they're not RDM, as I suspect some were waiting for me to bring it up, for how some insist it remains and plays like a SCH-2.

While I agree with your sentiment, currently no other strategy is viable then killing **** as fast as possible while making yourself immune to it's abilities. When the boss monster is equipped with a JP button that instantly kills anyone around it who isn't sporting an Aegis or Ochain with a maxed PDT/MDT set, then the only way to win is to circumvent the damage system (PD / Fanatics).

For example, take ADL. Now ADL has a bunch of moves that basically kill you while inflicting an annoying status ailment (as if killing you wasn't bad enough). To make it worse, these AoEs all have 30~40 foot ranges and effect everyone on the battle field simultaneously. And just to rub salt into the wound, he will ALWAYS clone himself and each clone will use a TP move together. So not only do you got annoying aoe's that inflict grievous amounts of damage while enfeebling you, no instead you get TWO of those same abilities going off at the same time. If the first one doesn't wipe your backline the second one will, and that's just ONE set of TP moves in a few seconds he'll do another. Lets not get into the stupidity that is dynamis implosion and the utter cheapness that is tera slash. Ohh and if hate changes during the tera slash animation, EVERYONE in the arch from the starting point to the end point is hit with it. I've seen 180 degree tera slash's kill all four melee's who were on opposite sides of ADL.

That's just one stupid NM boss fight. Get into the utter insanity that is legion and it's nothing but PD or die after the first wave. And with the extremely limited time and all the desired drops coming from the final wave, it's a 30m mega zerg or don't bother trying.

Reducing their HP by 10~15% won't change anything about the fight. It's the offensive power of everything that needs to be lowered. 1600~2000 damage aoe's need to become ~800 damage aoe's. 1000~1400 damage aoe's need to become 500~600 damage aoe's. Their range needs to be lowered to under 20 feet to allow actual healing to take place, some of them need to be 15 feet or less. All forms of Instant Death need to have capped 50% land rate, that way there is a semblance of a chance at survival. Our HP didn't go up by much, neither did our defensive abilities (outside of PD). NM's on the other hand have had their offensive abilities more then doubled (tripled if you take into account the level differences). It's become a situation where you simply can't survive without beating the system itself.

...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.

I have to disagree about Scholars not being mad about Embrava, because that was one of the main things that defined a Scholar. With pretty much every other aspect of their abilities covered by other jobs more effectively (Healing, Nuking, etc), Embrava was kind of their only stand out feature. With that taking a huge hit in duration and effect, one of the only reasons Scholars are ever brought to something will be over and done with. Scholars weren't meant to specialize in anything, just be a White Mage/ Black Mage mix. Scholars were meant to be a more magic-heavy version of Red Mage, as Red Mages were by design supposed to at least try to melee, hence their gear, some of their spells, etc.

While I can definitely agree that one of the main reasons scholars were invited was Embrava to say that it was their sole defining feature is little backwards. And only illuminates a massive problem Scholar has. This should never be the case for any job. This special spell only available during 2 hour isn't even the main point of the 2 hour. But it became the main point of the whole job. It over shadowed everything.

The job is lopsided and completely unbalanced. However they would never adjust it when scholar was in the spot light simply due to the fact that any adjustment besides a nerf would be over-kill. it be like trying to fix White mage's Divine magic line while it's severely ahead all other jobs in healing. It be seen as unnecessary and further solidifying the cookie cutter jobs.

I feel like the nerf a bit over kill. It should be a time nerf or the regain swap not both. However even in the state they suggested doesn't suddenly make the spell useless. 25% stackable haste isn't something to wave off as worthless. Along with a powerful regen and a strong refresh for mages which is again stackable with all other kinds of refresh and regen. It's just not as over-powered but it still has it's place.

Unfortunately for them to effectively adjust these jobs or the content that is too crooked they need to do the nerfs first and watch closely. They could do more up front and the player-base should voice it as such.(Making NNI Lowest jumpable floor amount higher. And/or try to make a sub objective that garuntees a stronger jump.) People more intimate with legion should voice up too. To me it's obvious if a content requires people to use perfect defense to win it's clearly not becuase the monster has to much hp square. Come on.

That's how I feel anyways. I also highly agree with Seriha view on the subject.

____________________________

If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

I feel like the nerf a bit over kill. It should be a time nerf or the regain swap not both. However even in the state they suggested doesn't suddenly make the spell useless. 25% stackable haste isn't something to wave off as worthless.

Duration gimp (at least, assuming they really gimp it down to 90 seconds base as they say) makes it worthless. You might as well have them come as a (2nd) BRD instead and Soul Voice you some marches, and be able to keep them up longer than Embrava thanks to Troubagale.

The only drawback a BRD has here is only being able to buff one party at a time while Embrava can be freely casted. But obviously for HQ Nyzul at least, that won't matter.

While I agree with your sentiment, currently no other strategy is viable then killing **** as fast as possible while making yourself immune to it's abilities. When the boss monster is equipped with a JP button that instantly kills anyone around it who isn't sporting an Aegis or Ochain with a maxed PDT/MDT set, then the only way to win is to circumvent the damage system (PD / Fanatics).

Well, I didn't comment specifically on adjusting troubled content in my initial reply, but I do agree it needs to happen. I've already stated in another thread that while the 5 Asterium change is needed and a start for Nyzul with means to find TEs along the way following. That'd open up your job spread significantly. Other events like Legion, Odin 2.0, or even VW are another can o' complex worms that require their own specific fixes. Naturally, future content also needs to learn from these mistakes, but without it being here, we can't really speculate. All I can assume is these changes are a precursor to such things.

Put me down as one of the SCH that is pretty darn unhappy over this nerf. It was our "Ace in the Hole" that got us into many of the current "End Game" type events. It got us in the door so that we could show our worth beyond that of a 2hrs.

And since it was skill based, it gave hope to those of us that believe capped skills really do mean something (not just lolOCD blue) vs. leveled but unskilled players.

It was a "2 hour worthy" ability. And I'll be the first to admit that it was somewhat overpowered. I could have supported a reasonable nerf. Cut the number of times it could be used, say 3 so we could buff an ally. Even similar to Alexander by just letting us use it once and done would have been preferred as compared to the cut we're looking at.

It wasn't "bought into balance", it wasn't "reduced", it wasn't "cut in half"... it was decimated to a mere fractional sliver of what it was and now is a closer comparison to a 5 minute /ja than a true SP ability. SO... if that is S-E's intended path for our 2 hours, ( being turned into 5 minute recasts) then I say bravo... this I seriously doubt.

Replacing Regain with Refresh... somewhere between a slap in the face and a black eye, cutting ~9 % haste off the top.... substantially more serious. You could argue those 2 nerfs alone are a greater than 50% reduction. But to all that we add a reduction in duration of 70% ? Simply devastating. If this is not the worst, it's certainly in the rare air of the top few biggest nerfs of all time.

Will it stop me from playing SCH? Nah, butI certainly won't be holding my head nearly as high as I was when I did play it, and I suspect my invites to "End Game" type events on SCH will be fewer. Thankfully, I've got other jobs.

I feel like the nerf a bit over kill. It should be a time nerf or the regain swap not both. However even in the state they suggested doesn't suddenly make the spell useless. 25% stackable haste isn't something to wave off as worthless.

Duration gimp (at least, assuming they really gimp it down to 90 seconds base as they say) makes it worthless. You might as well have them come as a (2nd) BRD instead and Soul Voice you some marches, and be able to keep them up longer than Embrava thanks to Troubagale.

The only drawback a BRD has here is only being able to buff one party at a time while Embrava can be freely casted. But obviously for HQ Nyzul at least, that won't matter.

Edited, Oct 24th 2012 8:27pm by Fynlar

Yeah but a bard can't slap embrava+regen and basicly send DDs off on their own being able to handle anything but nms and some more annoying mobs in Nyzul even without the regain. Which is a serious perk when you get a lay-out that forks a lot. Scholar also has their own time extender which would put the spell at(With bracer+2) 3 minutes 45 seconds.

____________________________

If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

I feel like the nerf a bit over kill. It should be a time nerf or the regain swap not both. However even in the state they suggested doesn't suddenly make the spell useless. 25% stackable haste isn't something to wave off as worthless.

Duration gimp (at least, assuming they really gimp it down to 90 seconds base as they say) makes it worthless. You might as well have them come as a (2nd) BRD instead and Soul Voice you some marches, and be able to keep them up longer than Embrava thanks to Troubagale.

The only drawback a BRD has here is only being able to buff one party at a time while Embrava can be freely casted. But obviously for HQ Nyzul at least, that won't matter.

Edited, Oct 24th 2012 8:27pm by Fynlar

Yeah but a bard can't slap embrava+regen and basicly send DDs off on their own being able to handle anything but nms and some more annoying mobs in Nyzul even without the regain. Which is a serious perk when you get a lay-out that forks a lot. Scholar also has their own time extender which would put the spell at(With bracer+2) 3 minutes 45 seconds.

Gimped Embrava for 3.75 minutes in a 30 minute event is so useful . Previously you could have about 150/tic total regen fultime. Now in the best of circumstances embrava will last around 7 minutes / sch as opposed to 15 minutes. It's pretty hard to justify the usefulness of embrava now since it idoesn't even last the entire event.

I don't think Embrava was nerfed because of NNI. It seems pretty clear to me that SE decided to nerf it because they thought that they needed to do that before reducing the cool down time on 2 hours across the board. They're making a corresponding change to NNI because they recognize that this Embrava nerf is going to make a big impact on NNI.

So this whole thread is silly.

____________________________

Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi) 1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!

Yeah but a bard can't slap embrava+regen and basicly send DDs off on their own being able to handle anything but nms and some more annoying mobs in Nyzul even without the regain.

I know that, but with the duration cut, Embrava as a long-term healing replacement really isn't viable anymore, and pretty much won't be much different from Perpetuanced Regen 5. The only thing going for it now is the haste, but as stated, BRD can do the same thing but better (among other things, if they've got Daurdabla)

This isn't saying that SCH will be completely useless and pointless to bring to Nyzul. It's just not going to be there because of Embrava. As far as healing goes, it will just have to make due with Regenga 5 and whatever heals they can manage to throw at people while the melees are zipping around getting things done. BRD obviously isn't going to be able to replace a healer role, but as far as a pure support role goes, it'll easily eclipse SCH now if Embrava gets nerfed as badly as stated.

Strange people are saying "quit whining" yet there are several posts here doing the exact same thing.

Do people actually complain to SE about this stuff - I mean really? All the nerfs that have occurred over the years happened without people moaning? In fact I am sure SE has players on XI who notice things and do some "homework" and then decide nerf is in order.

Sorry but as much as nerfs make me want to go mental, I feel like saying tough monkeys and get over it. As a RNG back in the day the nerf hit me and spoilt a job I fell in love with (my 1st real enjoyable job) and SE tried to recover from it for years with some OK additions and updates.

It happens, seriously guys quit or carry on playing your only two options. Well you could carry on crying :)

You cant sit there and complain telling others they should change their ways and tactics just to avoid you changing your ways and tactics. Its called SE is the rule maker and you change to fit their way.

Strange people are saying "quit whining" yet there are several posts here doing the exact same thing.

Do people actually complain to SE about this stuff - I mean really?

Do you read the official forums?

Or even =10 posts by special snowflakes (like Prrsha and a few other ultra-casuals that want the game to change to cater to the lowest common denominator)?

Lonix wrote:

All the nerfs that have occurred over the years happened without people moaning? In fact I am sure SE has players on XI who notice things and do some "homework" and then decide nerf is in order.

Sorry but as much as nerfs make me want to go mental, I feel like saying tough monkeys and get over it. As a RNG back in the day the nerf hit me and spoilt a job I fell in love with (my 1st real enjoyable job) and SE tried to recover from it for years with some OK additions and updates.

It happens, seriously guys quit or carry on playing your only two options. Well you could carry on crying :)

You could say the same for those who cried to SE for the nerfs to happen in the first place. The playerbase was mostly happy except for a few whiny special snowflakes (usually ultra-casuals who come back to the game to find it's changed and they can no longer party with 6 people in a Skillchain-Magic Burst party, then they whine that things are "too easy" and therefore elite content must be adjusted.)

The major problem is that elite content is designed for elite players, whereas the nerfs to elite content are all caused by non-elite players whining.

Lonix wrote:

You cant sit there and complain telling others they should change their ways and tactics just to avoid you changing your ways and tactics.

So no one is whining about the whiners. We are saying to just keep quiet or go signfiicantly participate in the content and then come up with a solid recommendation for balancing it. We don't have a problem with the content, why do you? My guess is because like all things, the path converges to one of jealousy at inability to participate in the content, either from lack of trying, competence, acquaintances, friends, etc.

The major problem is that elite content is designed for elite players, whereas the nerfs to elite content are all caused by non-elite players whining.

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by elite content, but there should never be content that is impossible for people to partake in. And nerfs are sometimes needed to help balance *gasp* content. When an ability is too overpowered, it causes problems when designing content. If they make it without said abilities in mind it becomes too easy. If they do keep it in mind, then it becomes too hard to do without.

Do people actually complain to SE about this stuff - I mean really? All the nerfs that have occurred over the years happened without people moaning? In fact I am sure SE has players on XI who notice things and do some "homework" and then decide nerf is in order. Edited, Oct 25th 2012 10:21am by Lonix

You can't compare the previous nerfs of the original dev team who moved on to FF14 to the current Dev team we have. These guys are actually active on the official forums and they have stated in those forums that they pay attention to other forums as well.

I think I have missrepresented my intent with my previous statements. I do think that PD and Embrava were gimicky and abusable.

My point is, who gives a ****? They worked.

We spent years wiping to Kirin, boosting for chi blast, farming millions for Lizzy boots and spent hours killing Crabs on beaches. Then the game flipped polarity to a world where people could cruor burn their way to fortunes or brew kill anything on BRD, it was easy mode and it sucked. Now, we were finally reaching a point where we had just the correct tools mixed with just enough randomness to have fun but still not get stiffed on drops in reasonably challenging events.

And people ran and told mom and dad that they left the liqour cabinet unlocked.

If I am reading your post correctly, you're mad that people could use gimmicks to obtain rewards with less effort (abyssea ezmode), and mad that your gimmick to obtain rewards with less effort was taken away (embrava/PD ezmode).

I think I have missrepresented my intent with my previous statements. I do think that PD and Embrava were gimicky and abusable.

My point is, who gives a @#%^? They worked.

We spent years wiping to Kirin, boosting for chi blast, farming millions for Lizzy boots and spent hours killing Crabs on beaches. Then the game flipped polarity to a world where people could cruor burn their way to fortunes or brew kill anything on BRD, it was easy mode and it sucked. Now, we were finally reaching a point where we had just the correct tools mixed with just enough randomness to have fun but still not get stiffed on drops in reasonably challenging events.

And people ran and told mom and dad that they left the liqour cabinet unlocked.

I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?

I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?

Problem is, PD/Embrava becoming predictable and required tactics for the newest content (at seemingly the expense of all the non-SMN&SCH jobs) is precisely what's making the game less fun to them.

When you dominate just about everything in almost the exact same ways, it gets boring after a while. It's a lot like Voidwatch in general. There's a lot of diversity among the various VWNMs, but in general they are so overpowered with how they go about murdering adventurers that the tactic for almost every NM is 1) pop Fanatic's Drink 2) get procs 3) kill. Any frontliners who fail at step #1 are usually pointed out by being flat on the ground moments later. Sometimes you might mix it up a little bit and use Fool's Drink instead. Ooh, how exciting.

I feel like the nerf a bit over kill. It should be a time nerf or the regain swap not both. However even in the state they suggested doesn't suddenly make the spell useless. 25% stackable haste isn't something to wave off as worthless.

Duration gimp (at least, assuming they really gimp it down to 90 seconds base as they say) makes it worthless. You might as well have them come as a (2nd) BRD instead and Soul Voice you some marches, and be able to keep them up longer than Embrava thanks to Troubagale.

The only drawback a BRD has here is only being able to buff one party at a time while Embrava can be freely casted. But obviously for HQ Nyzul at least, that won't matter.

Edited, Oct 24th 2012 8:27pm by Fynlar

Yeah but a bard can't slap embrava+regen and basicly send DDs off on their own being able to handle anything but nms and some more annoying mobs in Nyzul even without the regain. Which is a serious perk when you get a lay-out that forks a lot. Scholar also has their own time extender which would put the spell at(With bracer+2) 3 minutes 45 seconds.

Gimped Embrava for 3.75 minutes in a 30 minute event is so useful . Previously you could have about 150/tic total regen fultime. Now in the best of circumstances embrava will last around 7 minutes / sch as opposed to 15 minutes. It's pretty hard to justify the usefulness of embrava now since it idoesn't even last the entire event.

Edited, Oct 24th 2012 11:44pm by Dantedmc

And in what realm would it make sense for any 2 hour buff(An "Oh ****!" button) with the exception of beast,(Specifically since it's basically just a time extender for intents and purposes) to last a full events worth(half an hour+)? Only a handful of stances and buffs last as long as this buff in it's original state,

Is hundred fist, Mighty strikes useless becuase they only last 45 seconds? No. It's an inflammatory argument that just doesn't make sense. It's a nerf, I am not parading in the streets about it but it isn't suddenly akin to Overdrive. The spell is not useless, nor is the two hour. No other two hour in the game comes with as many benefits as Scholar's does. Even though bard can haste for more and have a longer duration yes, however a bard can't give a mages and DDs that kind of regen on top of refresh or haste respectively. a bard can't suddenly cast one of the strongest spells in game that is also AoEable. A bard can't drop AoE self target only spells to help further mitigate damage and enhance attacks.

Embrava and the two hour itself is not useless. It's just not Quintessential anymore. Which was the point to the nerf. And it will still be sought after for things like Nyzul and eventually salvage for it's strong versatility.

And I have to agree with fyn point on fun. This doesn't ruin anyones fun. Cause I don't consider 2 houring and staring at a book all event long only to step away to recast 1 spell on everyone fun. Nor do I considering strong arming my way through content with the same "Hit it as hard was we can and hope it dies before we do" strategy that is so popular in this game fun when used ad nasuem,

____________________________

If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?

If I am reading your post correctly, you're mad that people could use gimmicks to obtain rewards with less effort (abyssea ezmode), and mad that your gimmick to obtain rewards with less effort was taken away (embrava/PD ezmode).

You can't honestly be this far up your own ******.

True I did not like Abyssea, but I also didn't complain to SE that brews are OP and killing my ability to have fun compared to others. That's that point of all of this. If you enjoy farming cruor and brewing NMs until your eyes bleed, then go right ahead. I could do that too if I wanted too. It's the complaining that bothers me and if you can't figure that out then you must be slightly further up my ***. There's drinks and snacks in the back, feel free to make yourself at home. Look for polyps while you up there too you ******* punk lol.

I think I have missrepresented my intent with my previous statements. I do think that PD and Embrava were gimicky and abusable.

My point is, who gives a @#%^? They worked.

We spent years wiping to Kirin, boosting for chi blast, farming millions for Lizzy boots and spent hours killing Crabs on beaches. Then the game flipped polarity to a world where people could cruor burn their way to fortunes or brew kill anything on BRD, it was easy mode and it sucked. Now, we were finally reaching a point where we had just the correct tools mixed with just enough randomness to have fun but still not get stiffed on drops in reasonably challenging events.

And people ran and told mom and dad that they left the liqour cabinet unlocked.

I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?

It would be one thing if the content was not just all AV-lite gimmick mobs were the only effective strat revolved around taking 0 dmg and having super charged DDs like what was said in the other tread. It is pure laziness on the part of the devs for not coming up with a more creative design, that is what people should really be ****** at. As annoying as auras can be are they could do some interesting things with them if they gave it half a thought.

I don't play anymore. But, if I did, I would totally be your bro. Because you seem to be the only one that GETS IT.

Christ, this game is like a decade old. Can't we just stop getting slapped for having too much fun already?

Problem is, PD/Embrava becoming predictable and required tactics for the newest content (at seemingly the expense of all the non-SMN&SCH jobs) is precisely what's making the game less fun to them.

When you dominate just about everything in almost the exact same ways, it gets boring after a while. It's a lot like Voidwatch in general. There's a lot of diversity among the various VWNMs, but in general they are so overpowered with how they go about murdering adventurers that the tactic for almost every NM is 1) pop Fanatic's Drink 2) get procs 3) kill. Any frontliners who fail at step #1 are usually pointed out by being flat on the ground moments later. Sometimes you might mix it up a little bit and use Fool's Drink instead. Ooh, how exciting.

Edited, Oct 26th 2012 12:27am by Fynlar

That pretty much sums up the entire issue with the game right now. The developers made these stupid powerful monsters that constantly spam their "JP Button" to kill everyone and now they refuse to acknowledge that and nerf them. It's become a situation where you MUST use PD/Embrava (PD was required, Embrava just made it easier) or you failed. Try to do ADL without PD, try to do Legion without PD, try to do Voidwatch without using Fanatics drinks. You'll find out really fast how much they were required, not desired. I would love to play in a game where we don't have to resort to such cheap tactics, cause they do make the game seem boring by removing some of the real challenge. Arch-Omega is a decent enough fight, it does a ton of AoE's but none are so powerful that they just insta-kill everyone. DD's need a PDT/MDT set to be engaged full time, and your healers need to be good on the status ailments and Curaga spam. Actually the Arch-Omega / Ultima fights are good for separating the Abyssea onry healers from the dedicated healers, Cure IV/V spam won't go far, you need Curaga's at a minimum. Of course introducing Embrava / PD makes the fight kinda easy, which is the point behind nerfing it in the first place.

So if SE's going to nerf PD / Embrava, then they need to also nerf the offensive power of boss's, it's not an option.

Agreed, removing the tools we use will require more than lowering monsters HP%.

Lower AoE DMG of ADL and legion mobs to something manageable but still challenging for healers (Say...650-800?) and two changes to NNI: Remove the timer during the lobby and while jumping floors and remove order lamps (or atleast make them only available to happen once per run).

Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

Lonix wrote:

Lol

Strange people are saying "quit whining" yet there are several posts here doing the exact same thing.

Do people actually complain to SE about this stuff - I mean really? All the nerfs that have occurred over the years happened without people moaning? In fact I am sure SE has players on XI who notice things and do some "homework" and then decide nerf is in order.

Sorry but as much as nerfs make me want to go mental, I feel like saying tough monkeys and get over it. As a RNG back in the day the nerf hit me and spoilt a job I fell in love with (my 1st real enjoyable job) and SE tried to recover from it for years with some OK additions and updates.

It happens, seriously guys quit or carry on playing your only two options. Well you could carry on crying :)

You cant sit there and complain telling others they should change their ways and tactics just to avoid you changing your ways and tactics. Its called SE is the rule maker and you change to fit their way.

The major problem is that elite content is designed for elite players, whereas the nerfs to elite content are all caused by non-elite players whining.

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by elite content, but there should never be content that is impossible for people to partake in. And nerfs are sometimes needed to help balance *gasp* content. When an ability is too overpowered, it causes problems when designing content. If they make it without said abilities in mind it becomes too easy. If they do keep it in mind, then it becomes too hard to do without.

Yeah, I disagree too. I thought embrava was cool. Choco blinkers were handy.

I never called for anything to be nerfed, and if it hadn't been nerfed I wouldn't have said much about it. Yet, I do see reasons why measures were brought in. I don't consider myself "ultra casual" and while I did like the more strategic aspects of old style play, I recognize they could only be relevant in punishing experience points parties that I simply don't have time for anymore. It's nice to randomly duo with someone while doing GoV and to know you can say "thanks, gotta go, bye" whenever.

And I actually really like being able to spend more time getting high level gears and learning how to use all the abilities of a job.

But I can totally see the reason behind nerfing certain abilities. Did I do neo-nyzul? No, I am still working on regular nyzul. I solo dynamis and do some voidwatch, I consider myself to be mid-tier, not ignorantly terrible, and nothing special player.

But it doesn't take a macro-happy WS spamming +1 player to see that as long as PD and embrava are overpowered upper level content would end up being tuned to require those abilities.

____________________________

lolgaxe wrote:

When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

That's just one stupid NM boss fight. Get into the utter insanity that is legion and it's nothing but PD or die after the first wave. And with the extremely limited time and all the desired drops coming from the final wave, it's a 30m mega zerg or don't bother trying.

There are groups that do legion w/o PD at all, but they do have multiple sch's for stun-locking the mobs. I think the nerf to PD is perfect, can still get 57 seconds out of it if you are skilled so you lose 33 seconds only. Embrava however I thought was too much, something like 2 1/2 min recast regain to 3 tic max, haste was fine at what they put it too and maybe knocking 15-20 off the regen and that would have been good.

It would be one thing if the content was not just all AV-lite gimmick mobs were the only effective strat revolved around taking 0 dmg and having super charged DDs like what was said in the other tread. It is pure laziness on the part of the devs for not coming up with a more creative design, that is what people should really be ****** at. As annoying as auras can be are they could do some interesting things with them if they gave it half a thought.

Not trying to defend SE but I think the problem was that with Embrava and PD as strong as they were, they had to design the events around the fact that it is possible for them to be used. Even though I think the Embrava nerf was to much, hopefully they'll finally design stuff that is challenging and not AV/PW gimmick events/fights.

Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

I know theme tends to take a back seat to efficiency in MMOs, but there were basically two things going wrong when it came to Ranger back then. First was people simply shooting at point blank range. Really, when I consider archers or other forms of marksmen, I think of people trying to shoot **** from a distance. Execution style may have its appeal to gangstas and the like, but it's still not really in the fantasy mold. Second would be people using things like the Kraken Club to get TP really fast and just crank out WS far faster than they would've spamming RAs. Nice for parses, sure, but still not very range-y.

Mechanically, there were other issues like different damage formula favoring ranged attacks on higher level prey, which when paired with some of the above, eventually lead people into arrowburns. And since it was better, theme be damned, you were basically playing a gimpy THF/NIN until it came time to WS. Even after the nerf, the damage of RNG has not been the problem. The real hurdles the job now faces are a mix of ammunition costs and enmity issues making it difficult to actually maintain range on a mob if you're doing respectable damage. Some might also make a case for lacking auto-RA and the clumsiness of rapid shot gear, but I also don't think some realize that RAs are really just JAs with a cast time and that making such happen would be more complex than just copy/pasting the melee code. People, have, however fallen into the trap of believing that because RNG does shoot ammo, thus spend money, they deserve being a top DD. Actually being able to attack at range is a definite defensive benefit and even made some fights like Dark Ixion a breeze. The unfortunate truth is, as long as other melees have to get in range of this deadly TP wtfpwnurass **** mobs throw out, the best RNG could hop for is being on par or slightly less effective. But then we hit the problem of people only wanting the most effective jobs for a given task. That just brings us full circle to ammo costs. If 1k could get you 100 shots of any kind of ammo, I doubt people would give a **** about being less effective. But when you have to pay 15k for those 100 shots... yeah. And this is one of those cases were it's not really the crafter's fault due to either rarity or forced minimum pricing via NPC materials.

It would be one thing if the content was not just all AV-lite gimmick mobs were the only effective strat revolved around taking 0 dmg and having super charged DDs like what was said in the other tread. It is pure laziness on the part of the devs for not coming up with a more creative design, that is what people should really be ****** at. As annoying as auras can be are they could do some interesting things with them if they gave it half a thought.

Not trying to defend SE but I think the problem was that with Embrava and PD as strong as they were, they had to design the events around the fact that it is possible for them to be used. Even though I think the Embrava nerf was to much, hopefully they'll finally design stuff that is challenging and not AV/PW gimmick events/fights.

That is giving them to much. Whats the point of making mobs do 2k+ aoes if PD will just zero it out in the first place. They could have done any number of things to counter the zerg tactics that PD/embreva brought to the table. Phases and auras could have done so much to prevent zergs while still making the fights hard and interesting. Really it not like there isn't mobs already mobs that change the type of damage they take. Combine this with a annoying but minor aura to let the players know which mode it's in would have not only been easy but hella lot more creative then insta death.

Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

I know theme tends to take a back seat to efficiency in MMOs, but there were basically two things going wrong when it came to Ranger back then. First was people simply shooting at point blank range.

If S-E added Glocks or MAC-11s to the game for RNG's use, I'd be totally okay with that.

Animate them cocking the firearm to the side and everything.

____________________________

Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Ranger nerf was one of the biggest nerfs and was one of the reasons I quit the first time. I came back 2 years ago only to find out it got worse. Don't know why they tried to make ranged attack more real like in a fantasy title. I'm Still upset at how useless ranger is.

I know theme tends to take a back seat to efficiency in MMOs, but there were basically two things going wrong when it came to Ranger back then. First was people simply shooting at point blank range.

If S-E added Glocks or MAC-11s to the game for RNG's use, I'd be totally okay with that.

Animate them cocking the firearm to the side and everything.

In the interest of further themeliness, they must also take an RACC penalty when doing so. :P

If you want to stop zergs, drop the potential of damage dealers, either directly or by raising the mobs HP/resistance to damage.

You can't make a realistically challenging fight if the fight is going to be over in 60 seconds of Resolution spam. If the mob dies in 60 seconds, it has to be able to wipe an alliance in half of that time (or less) to pose a threat, and the only way to do that is through ridiculous amounts of AoE damage.

We've sort of dug our own graves. We went from chipping at a brick wall with a spoon to beating tissue paper with a sledgehammer, and no one would be happy if their big bad damage dealin' job went back to the popgun potency of ye olde days.

(My suggestion would be to focus on smaller groups and/or multiple enemies/add spam so that focusing all your firepower on one target becomes impractical, but if there's one thing I know about SE, it's that they love to design "One Giant Mob" encounters.)

Quote:

I have an even better question: What's the point of making mobs do 2k+ AoEs, period?

Because if they do no AoE's they're harmless to an alliance and if they do manageable AoE's curespam will keep everyone alive. You're not going to run out of MP and wipe due to a scarcity of healing, you're only going to wipe if everyone gets dropped faster than cure can be spammed.