There is something people are overlooking with the i3 and i8 is that their respective weights are actually significant because they are individually developed models for a purpose.

Now with other manufacturers adapting electrified powertrains to current models their weight goes up and it is not a minimal increase.

What is signifcant for BMW is that they started the CFRP process very early so they took the initial expense hit early now that is in production of a reasonable volume for the M3 and forthcoming M6 Coupe's. BMW M can actually fit the CFRP cost-effectively now to these models.

If Audi or Mercedes-Benz had to do so on the RS5 and C63 respectively they would be more expensive.

So....why is a new M3 $70 grand if you get anything on it?

"Cost-effective" is a relative term...

Back to the topic at hand, all of my BMWs (2 E92 328s, 2 E82 135s) have always "felt" heavy, compared to other cars I have driven. That is part of the overall "feel" of the typical BMW that I like.

I say this because I know that lighter car = better handling. Which would be great, obviously...I just hope that signature "feel" is not lost in the translation, if we are to indeed see real weight savings in future models.

Yes and no. What else these people can buy? C63 AMG is not any lighter. RS5 is the same story. They can keep their old cars, but that's highly unlikely.. So BMW know people will buy their cars, since all the other manufacturers are also getting bigger and heavier..

the vette can be ordered with a leather dash, and the seats can be replaced with leather sparco or recaro seats

BMW tried to sell a lightweight raw M, the z4m, but it sold terribly when new and had to be deeply discounted, so BMW got the message

if someone who's serious about lightweight wants a newer car, they can get a very low mileage used car (<10k miles) from any of the ones I've listed

Again, agreed. I actually owned a Z4 M Coupe for about 2 years. Very good car. I believe, part of the reason why they couldn't sell many is the economy being weak as well. For the time, it was a steal in terms of performance (still is actually).

Again, agreed. I actually owned a Z4 M Coupe for about 2 years. Very good car. I believe, part of the reason why they couldn't sell many is the economy being weak as well. For the time, it was a steal in terms of performance (still is actually).

My dad had one for three years. Best car I have ever driven...that thing was a beast...

...If you had the choice, would you choose an M3 with the current 414hp rating but be 300lbs lighter, or a different M3 with 450hp and the current 3700lb weight? The thrust to weight would be exactly the same at 8.2lph. I think just about everyone here would take the lighter car with less horsepower...

There is a fundamental difference between each of the 3 levels here: M3, 1M and 128i. Each has a subsequently lower level of engine quality in the eyes of most of us here (read: enthusiasts).

What us enthusiasts want is a true M engine in a lighter car, not an off the shelf engine in a lighter car.

Otherwise the 128i is arguably a more fun and nimble package than the 1M anyways.

What the majority of enthusiasts and posers alike prize highly are these special engines, and they are apparently going away in search of more platform sharing and the attached cost savings for BMW that come along with it. Many people, whether right or wrong, view the engine alone as the most significant and defining aspect of a performance car. This is the reason both the 1M and the 128i will never be acceptable to people like me as a special sports/performance car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone...and the lighter car with less horsepower... BMW already builds...

It is called the 1M Coupe

Quote:

Originally Posted by HBspeed

They also build something even lighter with even less power.

It is called the 128i.

There is a fundamental difference between each of the 3 levels here: M3, 1M and 128i. Each has a subsequently lower level of engine quality in the eyes of most of us here (read: enthusiasts).

What us enthusiasts want is a true M engine in a lighter car, not an off the shelf engine in a lighter car.

Otherwise the 128i is arguably a more fun and nimble package than the 1M anyways.

What the majority of enthusiasts and posers alike prize highly are these special engines, and they are apparently going away in search of more platform sharing and the attached cost savings for BMW that come along with it. Many people, whether right or wrong, view the engine alone as the most significant and defining aspect of a performance car. This is the reason both the 1M and the 128i will never be acceptable to people like me as a special sports/performance car.

+1.

Did you see the latest copy of Excellence (October issue) page 56, TC Kline's 128i :

and I quote the mag...

"The Ultimate handing machine: TC Kline's suspension tuning transforms the entry level 128i Coupe into a car that can rival the 1 series M Coupe for pure driving fun!"

Back to the topic at hand, all of my BMWs (2 E92 328s, 2 E82 135s) have always "felt" heavy, compared to other cars I have driven. That is part of the overall "feel" of the typical BMW that I like.

I say this because I know that lighter car = better handling. Which would be great, obviously...I just hope that signature "feel" is not lost in the translation, if we are to indeed see real weight savings in future models.

I think know what you mean here. BMWs have a solid feel. The doors make a solid "thunk" sound when they close, etc. This feel was present when I compared my 91 M3 to my 91 Honda Accord. The Honda was tinny in comparison. The doors were light and the glass rattled in the door if the glass was down when the door closed etc.

I was able to meet with M personnel last year, and they are very much aware of the fact that all bmws including M cars have added weight and they assured us that future models would weigh less for the base platforms, and the M division dill continue to make M cars lighter than the models they are based on.

Doubters take note, this is absolutely a major focus for BMW and BMW M.

I completely agree. I feel that the E39 M5 is the perfect size sedan. It's crazy how my E90 M3 is almost as big in every aspect. Personally, I'd love to be able to buy a new M3 from the dealership that is the size and weight of the E46 with the S65 V8.

You can. It's called a 1 series M coupe. Ok, it's not an S65, (really awesome motor) but really, once you drive it.. That won't matter any more, the rest of the checkboxes are checked.

i've been saying this for years....as long as americans/the world gets fatter and fatter, car companies will continue to accommodate them. our cars will get bigger just to ppls' fat asses.

hopefully cf tech will trickle down quicker...

HAHAHA AMEN man, its so true, if people were only buying the small cars, and not the big ass 7 series and shit the car companies wouldnt make them. ITs a business if theres a demand for it they are going to produce it. But you get fat dumb americans that think more and bigger is better......

The same reason hy an h2 had more sales than h3, even though the h3 was more capable offroad, lighter, better mpg, and more practical.

Or the same reason people drive huge suvs, or pick up trucks, that they only drive themselves around and never tow, or haul, have a load of ppl all the time.

BMW fires first salvo?
Where? I don`t see it in any current production car. Current F10 for instance gained several hundred pounds.

Lexus, for the all new GS, really nailed it. They didn`t enlarged the car, -why would they?- but increased interior space, knee, head and legroom , plus a bigger trunk -25% more bigger-.
Now that is efficient packaging.

And they added a bunch of new technology, and car`s curb weight remained about the same!

Now that is doing it right.

I will also agree with this, thats how everyone should do it.

I love my BMW but in this world, and in this day and age, thats how things should be getting done.

I think know what you mean here. BMWs have a solid feel. The doors make a solid "thunk" sound when they close, etc. This feel was present when I compared my 91 M3 to my 91 Honda Accord. The Honda was tinny in comparison. The doors were light and the glass rattled in the door if the glass was down when the door closed etc.

I was able to meet with M personnel last year, and they are very much aware of the fact that all bmws including M cars have added weight and they assured us that future models would weigh less for the base platforms, and the M division dill continue to make M cars lighter than the models they are based on.

Doubters take note, this is absolutely a major focus for BMW and BMW M.

That is really good to hear--and the Honda is a great comparison. That "tinny" feel is fine for a car I drive purely for economical reasons, but I hope it never finds its way into the BMW lines.

My main thing is that saving weight is obviously great...but not to the detriment of the overall feel of the car. If the BMW/M engineers are cognizant of that, then we are probably in good shape.

That is really good to hear--and the Honda is a great comparison. That "tinny" feel is fine for a car I drive purely for economical reasons, but I hope it never finds its way into the BMW lines.

My main thing is that saving weight is obviously great...but not to the detriment of the overall feel of the car. If the BMW/M engineers are cognizant of that, then we are probably in good shape.

Keep in mind that BMW is focusing on lightweight components via materials ..... Aluminum in suspension components vs steel... BMW has heavily invested in carbon fiber and carbon fiber roof technology... Clearly motor size and weight are going down as we see most models drop two cylinders in favor of turbos, etc.. I don't think they are compromising anything at all on the interior appointments, electronics, sound deadening, safety items, nor the quality of construction.

BMW fires first salvo?
Where? I don`t see it in any current production car. Current F10 for instance gained several hundred pounds.

Lexus, for the all new GS, really nailed it. They didn`t enlarged the car, -why would they?- but increased interior space, knee, head and legroom , plus a bigger trunk -25% more bigger-.
Now that is efficient packaging.

And they added a bunch of new technology, and car`s curb weight remained about the same!

Now that is doing it right.

From Autoweek...
"Lexus says the 2013 GS 350 uses an all-new platform with a 2-inch wider track. Its wheelbase remains the same but the car is longer, wider and taller than the old model.

The GS will be offered with only a V6 and V6 hybrid. A V8 version was part of the previous two generations but was only about 10 percent of the model mix.

Using a carryover 3.5-liter V6 and six-speed sequential-shift transmission, the GS 350 accelerates from 0-to-60 mph in 5.7 seconds, the same as the current model."

I can't find any official curb weight numbers but I'd place a bet the new GS weighs more. No mention of new lightweight materials used in construction though it very well could. It could appear to weigh the same if the new V6 version is compared to the old V8 version. Not enough detail to make a judgement yet.