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Rain Partier

jeremiahvedder wrote:Except good writers don't "just" write such a simple blurb and move. Maybe writers who, you know, actually communicate with their artists on the phone or in person or e-mail or somewhere outside of the script do because there are other places to exchange ideas, but surely no professional.

Understood.

But the writing of the script, in most cases, is much quicker than the drawing of the page. That's what that example was meant to illustrate.

Rain Partier

jeremiahvedder wrote:Except good writers don't "just" write such a simple blurb and move. Maybe writers who, you know, actually communicate with their artists on the phone or in person or e-mail or somewhere outside of the script do because there are other places to exchange ideas, but surely no professional.

Understood.

But the writing of the script, in most cases, is much quicker than the drawing of the page. That's what that example was meant to illustrate.

Motherfucker from Hell

But the writing of the script, in most cases, is much quicker than the drawing of the page. That's what that example was meant to illustrate.

If you mean a full page process, from pencils to inks and letters, then I won't argue, depending on the level of detail. (Webcomics, for example, might take two or three hours, you know, there's a lot of the really famous ones even who don't put much effort into it.) But by the time I've broken down a full outline, carefully laid out sequences, ensured that every page has a "cliffhanger" moment and actually scripted the damn thing, each written page takes me approximately 5-10 hours. Not taking anything away from the artist but it's not like writers just poop something out in half an hour and play golf for eight hours a day.

But the writing of the script, in most cases, is much quicker than the drawing of the page. That's what that example was meant to illustrate.

If you mean a full page process, from pencils to inks and letters, then I won't argue, depending on the level of detail. (Webcomics, for example, might take two or three hours, you know, there's a lot of the really famous ones even who don't put much effort into it.) But by the time I've broken down a full outline, carefully laid out sequences, ensured that every page has a "cliffhanger" moment and actually scripted the damn thing, each written page takes me approximately 5-10 hours. Not taking anything away from the artist but it's not like writers just poop something out in half an hour and play golf for eight hours a day.

The Red Stands for Irony

In terms of front page content, I'm not opposed to putting it up. It sounds like a unique idea.

However, I think there needs to be a clear direction to the feature that's more than "Look at us, we're trying to pitch stuff!" A few images and a couple of live journal-esque posts wouldn't really attract a lot of attention, IMO. People would really need to explain the process and commit to see the feature through to the end.

Also, should rejections happen, either when the pitches get reviewed by pubs or when trying to recruit artists, the feature shouldn't be used to attempt to bash the rejecters. If there's a valid criticism to be made, then make it, but the front page isn't a place to attempt to throw dirt on those who you perceived wronged you and your pitch.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, just remember that as the feature is as much promotion for the pitches as it is documenting your attempt, it's probably not the best idea to engage in pedantic back and forths with detractors. It may make the creators hard to deal with or unable to accept criticism.

The Red Stands for Irony

In terms of front page content, I'm not opposed to putting it up. It sounds like a unique idea.

However, I think there needs to be a clear direction to the feature that's more than "Look at us, we're trying to pitch stuff!" A few images and a couple of live journal-esque posts wouldn't really attract a lot of attention, IMO. People would really need to explain the process and commit to see the feature through to the end.

Also, should rejections happen, either when the pitches get reviewed by pubs or when trying to recruit artists, the feature shouldn't be used to attempt to bash the rejecters. If there's a valid criticism to be made, then make it, but the front page isn't a place to attempt to throw dirt on those who you perceived wronged you and your pitch.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, just remember that as the feature is as much promotion for the pitches as it is documenting your attempt, it's probably not the best idea to engage in pedantic back and forths with detractors. It may make the creators hard to deal with or unable to accept criticism.

Twenty-Something

contramundi wrote:the gathering?never heard of it,can i post a link to my blog there?if you ever need something i can work something out,i just need an excuse to draw really lol,i know i need to improve but i would like a taste of something serious,an indie stint or something

anyway,if anybody needs a penciler post or pm a request,im not very tech savvy but ill work something out

Twenty-Something

contramundi wrote:the gathering?never heard of it,can i post a link to my blog there?if you ever need something i can work something out,i just need an excuse to draw really lol,i know i need to improve but i would like a taste of something serious,an indie stint or something

anyway,if anybody needs a penciler post or pm a request,im not very tech savvy but ill work something out

Motherfucker from Hell

BlueStreak wrote:In terms of front page content, I'm not opposed to putting it up. It sounds like a unique idea.

However, I think there needs to be a clear direction to the feature that's more than "Look at us, we're trying to pitch stuff!" A few images and a couple of live journal-esque posts wouldn't really attract a lot of attention, IMO. People would really need to explain the process and commit to see the feature through to the end.

Also, should rejections happen, either when the pitches get reviewed by pubs or when trying to recruit artists, the feature shouldn't be used to attempt to bash the rejecters. If there's a valid criticism to be made, then make it, but the front page isn't a place to attempt to throw dirt on those who you perceived wronged you and your pitch.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, just remember that as the feature is as much promotion for the pitches as it is documenting your attempt, it's probably not the best idea to engage in pedantic back and forths with detractors. It may make the creators hard to deal with or unable to accept criticism.

So with that said, I'm in. There are a few others being courted as well. Personally I'd love to see at least a gang of six doing this. But I wouldn't put limits one way or the other on who does this. I think it's an experience everyone should try.

Motherfucker from Hell

BlueStreak wrote:In terms of front page content, I'm not opposed to putting it up. It sounds like a unique idea.

However, I think there needs to be a clear direction to the feature that's more than "Look at us, we're trying to pitch stuff!" A few images and a couple of live journal-esque posts wouldn't really attract a lot of attention, IMO. People would really need to explain the process and commit to see the feature through to the end.

Also, should rejections happen, either when the pitches get reviewed by pubs or when trying to recruit artists, the feature shouldn't be used to attempt to bash the rejecters. If there's a valid criticism to be made, then make it, but the front page isn't a place to attempt to throw dirt on those who you perceived wronged you and your pitch.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, just remember that as the feature is as much promotion for the pitches as it is documenting your attempt, it's probably not the best idea to engage in pedantic back and forths with detractors. It may make the creators hard to deal with or unable to accept criticism.

So with that said, I'm in. There are a few others being courted as well. Personally I'd love to see at least a gang of six doing this. But I wouldn't put limits one way or the other on who does this. I think it's an experience everyone should try.

Twenty-Something

jeremiahvedder wrote:If you mean a full page process, from pencils to inks and letters, then I won't argue, depending on the level of detail. (Webcomics, for example, might take two or three hours, you know, there's a lot of the really famous ones even who don't put much effort into it.) But by the time I've broken down a full outline, carefully laid out sequences, ensured that every page has a "cliffhanger" moment and actually scripted the damn thing, each written page takes me approximately 5-10 hours. Not taking anything away from the artist but it's not like writers just poop something out in half an hour and play golf for eight hours a day.

I think that depends on the writer. If Stephen King would spend 10 hours in one page he would only have a few books finished.

Twenty-Something

jeremiahvedder wrote:If you mean a full page process, from pencils to inks and letters, then I won't argue, depending on the level of detail. (Webcomics, for example, might take two or three hours, you know, there's a lot of the really famous ones even who don't put much effort into it.) But by the time I've broken down a full outline, carefully laid out sequences, ensured that every page has a "cliffhanger" moment and actually scripted the damn thing, each written page takes me approximately 5-10 hours. Not taking anything away from the artist but it's not like writers just poop something out in half an hour and play golf for eight hours a day.

I think that depends on the writer. If Stephen King would spend 10 hours in one page he would only have a few books finished.

Motherfucker from Hell

Arion wrote:I think that depends on the writer. If Stephen King would spend 10 hours in one page he would only have a few books finished.

Writing for prose and writing for comics are entirely different beasts. Writing a comic is a lot like being a movie director, setting up shots and maintaining pace on top of already having orchestrated the creative impulse into something tangible; and being an Indy writer, nine times out of ten, you're also your own editor so you have to be transcendentally aware of your own strengths and weaknesses.

Motherfucker from Hell

Arion wrote:I think that depends on the writer. If Stephen King would spend 10 hours in one page he would only have a few books finished.

Writing for prose and writing for comics are entirely different beasts. Writing a comic is a lot like being a movie director, setting up shots and maintaining pace on top of already having orchestrated the creative impulse into something tangible; and being an Indy writer, nine times out of ten, you're also your own editor so you have to be transcendentally aware of your own strengths and weaknesses.

Rain Partier

jeremiahvedder wrote:Writing for prose and writing for comics are entirely different beasts. Writing a comic is a lot like being a movie director, setting up shots and maintaining pace on top of already having orchestrated the creative impulse into something tangible; and being an Indy writer, nine times out of ten, you're also your own editor so you have to be transcendentally aware of your own strengths and weaknesses.

So you're saying you spend 100 to 200 hours writing a 20 page comic? I really have to say that I find this incredibly difficult to believe.

Rain Partier

jeremiahvedder wrote:Writing for prose and writing for comics are entirely different beasts. Writing a comic is a lot like being a movie director, setting up shots and maintaining pace on top of already having orchestrated the creative impulse into something tangible; and being an Indy writer, nine times out of ten, you're also your own editor so you have to be transcendentally aware of your own strengths and weaknesses.

So you're saying you spend 100 to 200 hours writing a 20 page comic? I really have to say that I find this incredibly difficult to believe.

Motherfucker from Hell

Doc Spider wrote:So you're saying you spend 100 to 200 hours writing a 20 page comic? I really have to say that I find this incredibly difficult to believe.

Your prerogative, man, but those are pretty accurate for me after outlines, self-editing and multiple drafts. We give artists credit for crafting all these stages of their work (pencils, inks, colors) but Indy comic book writers have to wear multiple hats, as well. You think Bendis would be able to have the kind of output he has without Brain Trusts and Editorial? It's because he has back-up and things are totally different in the Minor Leagues. Your mileage may vary and I'm a bit on the obsessive compulsive end of the spectrum but the point remains: good writers aren't a dime a dozen and I'm extremely insulted any time someone says they are.

Motherfucker from Hell

Doc Spider wrote:So you're saying you spend 100 to 200 hours writing a 20 page comic? I really have to say that I find this incredibly difficult to believe.

Your prerogative, man, but those are pretty accurate for me after outlines, self-editing and multiple drafts. We give artists credit for crafting all these stages of their work (pencils, inks, colors) but Indy comic book writers have to wear multiple hats, as well. You think Bendis would be able to have the kind of output he has without Brain Trusts and Editorial? It's because he has back-up and things are totally different in the Minor Leagues. Your mileage may vary and I'm a bit on the obsessive compulsive end of the spectrum but the point remains: good writers aren't a dime a dozen and I'm extremely insulted any time someone says they are.

Rain Partier

jeremiahvedder wrote:Your prerogative, man, but those are pretty accurate for me after outlines, self-editing and multiple drafts. We give artists credit for crafting all these stages of their work (pencils, inks, colors) but Indy comic book writers have to wear multiple hats, as well. You think Bendis would be able to have the kind of output he has without Brain Trusts and Editorial? It's because he has back-up and things are totally different in the Minor Leagues. Your mileage may vary and I'm a bit on the obsessive compulsive end of the spectrum but the point remains: good writers aren't a dime a dozen and I'm extremely insulted any time someone says they are.

Fair enough, J. You say it, I believe you.

And when I said that writers are adime a dozen, I don't mean it as a personal belief. I was talking about how companies generally view them. Like I said, most companies won't even look at a writer, unless there's some art to go along with a pitch.

Rain Partier

jeremiahvedder wrote:Your prerogative, man, but those are pretty accurate for me after outlines, self-editing and multiple drafts. We give artists credit for crafting all these stages of their work (pencils, inks, colors) but Indy comic book writers have to wear multiple hats, as well. You think Bendis would be able to have the kind of output he has without Brain Trusts and Editorial? It's because he has back-up and things are totally different in the Minor Leagues. Your mileage may vary and I'm a bit on the obsessive compulsive end of the spectrum but the point remains: good writers aren't a dime a dozen and I'm extremely insulted any time someone says they are.

Fair enough, J. You say it, I believe you.

And when I said that writers are adime a dozen, I don't mean it as a personal belief. I was talking about how companies generally view them. Like I said, most companies won't even look at a writer, unless there's some art to go along with a pitch.

Motherfucker from Hell

jeremiahvedder wrote:Your prerogative, man, but those are pretty accurate for me after outlines, self-editing and multiple drafts. We give artists credit for crafting all these stages of their work (pencils, inks, colors) but Indy comic book writers have to wear multiple hats, as well. You think Bendis would be able to have the kind of output he has without Brain Trusts and Editorial? It's because he has back-up and things are totally different in the Minor Leagues. Your mileage may vary and I'm a bit on the obsessive compulsive end of the spectrum but the point remains: good writers aren't a dime a dozen and I'm extremely insulted any time someone says they are.

Motherfucker from Hell

jeremiahvedder wrote:Your prerogative, man, but those are pretty accurate for me after outlines, self-editing and multiple drafts. We give artists credit for crafting all these stages of their work (pencils, inks, colors) but Indy comic book writers have to wear multiple hats, as well. You think Bendis would be able to have the kind of output he has without Brain Trusts and Editorial? It's because he has back-up and things are totally different in the Minor Leagues. Your mileage may vary and I'm a bit on the obsessive compulsive end of the spectrum but the point remains: good writers aren't a dime a dozen and I'm extremely insulted any time someone says they are.

Twenty-Something

jeremiahvedder wrote:Writing for prose and writing for comics are entirely different beasts. Writing a comic is a lot like being a movie director, setting up shots and maintaining pace on top of already having orchestrated the creative impulse into something tangible; and being an Indy writer, nine times out of ten, you're also your own editor so you have to be transcendentally aware of your own strengths and weaknesses.

It's different, that's right. But you still have people like Stan Lee who could write several titles a month. And if you do the math that means it didn't take him 10 hours to write a page.

I still don't see why it would take you so long to write a page. Unless you're including research in the process. For instance, I re read the Clockwork Orange (which took me some time) to write a 5 page comic script.

Twenty-Something

jeremiahvedder wrote:Writing for prose and writing for comics are entirely different beasts. Writing a comic is a lot like being a movie director, setting up shots and maintaining pace on top of already having orchestrated the creative impulse into something tangible; and being an Indy writer, nine times out of ten, you're also your own editor so you have to be transcendentally aware of your own strengths and weaknesses.

It's different, that's right. But you still have people like Stan Lee who could write several titles a month. And if you do the math that means it didn't take him 10 hours to write a page.

I still don't see why it would take you so long to write a page. Unless you're including research in the process. For instance, I re read the Clockwork Orange (which took me some time) to write a 5 page comic script.