Ownness [eigenheit] includes in itself everything own... But ownness has not any alien standard either, as it is not in any sense an idea like freedom, morality, humanity, and the like. It is only a description of the - owner.

Saturday, May 19, 2007

This morning I attended an introductory meeting (a.k.a., "sales pitch") for the "real estate investment college", Nouveau Riche (NRU). I had stumbled upon the company, quite randomly, a few months ago while perusing some of the local groups at Meetup.com, but until recently I just couldn't bring myself to take the time to check them out in any detail.

The first red flag to jump out about NRU, though, is that its founder, Jim Piccolo, was also the founder of the MLM company TruDynamics (a.k.a., Travel Dynamics). In my book, anyone who starts a network marketing company is not a trustworthy individual.

There's always a chance, though, that a person can reform, and I wasn't really doing much with my Saturday morning anyway, so I figured "what the hell?" and headed to one of their twice-weekly meetings. When I arrived I could tell immediately I was in the right place, since two of the cars parked there had huge wraparound signs on them, asking "Did you make $30K last month?" and, if you didn't, suggesting to call the supplied phone number.

Much of the content of the meeting itself can be found here, including the actual Powerpoint slide show used by the presenter. Several things struck me about the meeting, though. There were roughly 15 people there, including myself, but I'd say 10 or 11 of them had already either purchased the R2E2 or paid the full "Regents" tuition. This struck me as odd, but one thing they did seem to stress - especially when 4 of the attendees stood up to tell their own success stories since joining (one of the 4 strongly implied that her 19-year-old daughter would be skipping "regular" college and just attending NRU - yikes!) - was NRU's "community" aspect. Supposedly you won't ever be left out in the cold if you join up. I'm guessing many of the people there were enjoying the community? (Yes, it's true that at least some of the people were probably there in hopes of earning a commission on a sale.)

Another thing they stressed was the Investor Concierge service, which sounds pretty cool, but, as this website points out, the example property shown in the presentation used suspicious numbers, such as a 5.25% interest-only loan. For reasons I'll get to in a moment, I strongly suspect the Investor Concierge has a chronic shortage of properties - profitable or not (I'd suspect mostly not) - but a look at one of the "Last 20 Sold" houses using the site's guest account revealed something even more suspicious. Here's a screenshot of a Phoenix AZ property listing on the Investor Concierge site (click images for full size):

Here's the same property's details from the records of Transnation Title:

The discrepancies ought to be patently obvious. The Arizona Regional Multiple Lising Service corroborates Transnation Title's data (big surprise there!). No recent sale of 3302 W Acoma has taken place - at $139K or any other price. I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but I hope you're as disturbed as I am by the implications.

They also highlighted their "business opportunity" aspect - not surprisingly, invoking Kiyosaki's "cashflow quadrant" in the process. While it doesn't technically meet the definition of MLM, the "opportunity" certainly resembles it in many aspects. I'll skip going into any real detail, but the basic idea is that you, as a sales rep for NRU, bring in 2 paying customers, which will result in 50% commissions being paid to your trainer/sponsor/mentor person (the one who introduced the company to you). After that, the first two people those people bring in will result in a 50% commission being paid to you. It's not MLM, exactly, but it does suffer from the serious drawback of quickly creating too many sales people in a given region.

Think about that, for a moment. You might remember that old shampoo commercial: "They'll tell two friends, and they'll tell two friends, and so on, and so on..." That may work great for shampoo, but is such a scenario even remotely workable for real estate investing?

For sake of argument, let's grant that, say, 5 of the people with the big car signs really do, consistently, month in and month out, make $20K-30K selling NRU tuition packages. They claim that 98% of the people who sign up do so at the "Regents" level. That's an $8K commission to the person who signed them up. So, that's roughly 3 new "students" per salesperson signed up every month, or 3x5x12=180 new "real estate investors" recruited in a year by those 5 salespeople. Now, as you know, those 180 people were, in part, enticed to join NRU with the promise that they could each also make approximately $288K in a year. But to do that they'll have to bring in another 6,480 people. And what about those people? How easily do you think they'll each make $20K/month?

According to a recent article on azcentral.com, homeowners in the Metro Phoenix area who default on their mortgages get an average of 300 pieces of mail from foreclosure investors. Assuming your typical pre-foreclosure investor sends a "campaign" of 5 letters to one house, that means that there are somewhere around 60 people competing for each potential investment property. The competition has gotten so fierce that now some foreclosure sharks are sending oddly shaped colored envelopes with hand-written addresses - and even including pieces of Jolly Rancher candies inside! All in the hopes that their ad doesn't simply go straight to the trash, ignored. Nouveau Riche University wants to increase that number from 60 to 6,480 competitors, plus! Does that seem even remotely sustainable to you? Are you interested in being one of those 6000+ "investors" competing for investment properties? In what other industry (aside from MLM) are the "sales reps" actively working to undermine their own success by training their own competition?

In spite of the obvious mathmatical unworkability of NRU, their introductory meeting's sales pitch is definitely a slick presentation, and you can't help but get caught up in the warm and friendly atmosphere they, no-doubt, carefully cultivate. At the conclusion of the presentation they instruct you to immediately go and tell your sponsor-person if you're interested in signing up, learning more, or just want to leave. I told my Independent Student Advisor that I was somewhat interested in learning more, but that I still had a number of questions. Foremost in my mind at this point is why this person, who has been with NRU for about a year, doesn't appear to own any investment properties - at least not locally.

It probably goes without saying that I won't be plunking down any money for this "opportunity" any time soon.

A superb, must-read, critique of the whole Nouveau Riche phenomenon can be found at cockeyed.com.

UPDATE, 7/16/07: I received an email today from my independent student advisor contact, asking me to remove all mention of her from this post and the comments following. The ISA's contention was that the inclusion of this information is "disrespectful" and "unnecessary". I have agreed to remove all mention of her name - to protect against the possibility of unrelated future Google searches by, for example, potential stalkers - but I believe that the links to the public record are necessary. Anyone interested in the truth should be in favor of greater transparency, in my humble opinion. This is why I include links to both the Maricopa County records, and the AZ Corporation Commission records, since she claims not to own any investment properties by name.

As part of this update, I had to delete several of the comments from the comments thread. Those are reproduced here, with the ISA's name replaced by strings of X's.

KIWI said... And by the way, XXXXXXXXXX DOES own several properties here and in Las Vegas! Please do not make assumptions about things you know nothing about.

7/02/2007

Einzige said... Kiwi,

What's with the ALL CAPS? Do you think that by shouting at me you'll win others to your cause?

You say: I KNOW WHATEVER I SAY WON'T BUDGE YOUR STUBBORN MIND...

Quite the contrary, I am more than willing to listen to substantive arguments, consisting of logical analysis and the presentation of empirical evidence in support of your assertions. Unfortunately your comments so far have provided neither of those. Instead, you've simply made a number of bald assertions and insults to my character - while simultaneously ignoring the bulk of my complaints against NRU. Hardly persuasive stuff, I'd say.

WHY WOULD YOU THINK INTEREST ONLY IS BAD FOR A BUY AND HOLD?

I'll skip delving deeply into the details, but each potential loan is going to have its pluses and minuses, and should be evaluated on an individual basis. The main questions with respect to an interest-only loan should be: 1) How long is the interest-only period? and 2) When the reset comes, what are my best- and worst-case monthly payments going to be? I suppose there are situations where an interest-only loan is appropriate, but given the future's uncertainties, I'd prefer knowing what my payments are going to be.

Why don't you explain your thought process, rather than insult me for my apparent ignorance in this area?

And by the way, XXXXXXXX DOES own several properties here and in Las Vegas!

How do you know this? Note I didn't "assume" anything. All I said was that she doesn't seem to own any investment properties locally, based on Maricopa County records associated with her name and the name of the corporate entity I could find associated with her - I even provided a link to the relevant MC records! I didn't claim that this was definitive proof.

On the other hand, if she wants to convince potential recruits that NRU is an effective means of becoming a successful RE investor, she ought to make it easy for folks to find evidence that she actually is one herself. Don't you think?

What about you, Kiwi? Where are your investment properties? I'd like their full addresses, for starters. Maybe some rental agreements, too. Otherwise I think those of us who are incredulous are entitled to remain so.

7/02/2007

UPDATE TWO (01/09/08): It seems that all of my ISA's promotional web sites for NRU and real estate investment are now defunct. This is certainly not evidence in favor of NRU.

175 comments:

NR is a major scam. I love the buy wholesale aspect. I bet NR has a ton of renters just waiting to rent your property. NR has this economy that they promise you but doesnt exist. The RE market sucks and even if it didnt why pay $15k for some books and tapes to learn how to LLC a property and buy it and resell it. You can make more $ selling garage sale items on ebay. IMHO

Just barely learned about NRU- thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. It's good to hear all sides. Does anyone know about the NRU mortgage business? I went to a meeting to network with investors and people refused to look at a loan anywhere other than the NRU mortgage company. I ended the night by offering a loan at a par rate with no fees on the front end - A FREE LOAN! And nobody would even blink. Are there contracts to use their lender? If so, look out!

I remember my first Amway presentation, and thinking, even without actually "doing the math," the following disturbing thought:

If everyone is selling by this model, who is going to be left to buy?

Um, me! But they told methe cool thing is that if I include money saved by buying wholesale through Amway as income (following "a penny saved is a penny earned") then I will get rich just buying my stuff through Amway!

So, who really makes the money in MLM? The people that sell the method, not the people who try to sell the product. Eventually, somebody in the infinite downline is going to have to go to work and earn a penny or two the old fashioned way to make the ones in the "upline" rich.

I have been a student of Nouveau Riche for almost 3 years. With what I have learned I have been able to do multiple deals, and I currently own 6 properties, and my networth has increased by $375,000 and I had no experience in Real Estate.

I feel you can make excuses or you can make money but not both.

Nouveau Riche's Education is far from a Scam. I guess if you are a negative thinker you could think almost anything is a scam.

I dont know if you have seen the Movie the Secret but I thought it was right on and good food for thought.

I also just read Trumps and Roberts new book, Why we want you to be Rich and loved it.

It was right on.

I suggest you attend a class or two and take action on what you learned and decide if it is for you or not.

Wallace, I appreciate your comments and you sharing your experience - and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that what you're claiming about your net worth is true - but you really didn't address any of my arguments.

In response to your main point, I'll reiterate the argument I made over at scam.com.

It may be true that you and others learned something at NRU that enabled you to make a good deal of money in real estate investing. From this you then jump to the conclusion that the tuition cost was somehow "worth it". Is that a reasonable conclusion to make?

That kind of thinking strikes me as not particularly "investor" savvy. Wallace, are you really this careless about your ROI on your investments?

Any investor worth his salt is going to look at an outlay of funds and ask "What will my return be?" followed by "What investment alternatives are open to me?" - i.e., "Is there somewhere else I can put my money that will give me an even better return?"

If you're investing and not constantly asking yourself those questions then you're a lousy investor (and stand a good chance of soon not being an investor at all).

The potential NRU students have to ask themselves, "Is putting my $16K into NRU 'classes' the best use of my investment capital?"

To put it another way: Can the information NRU purports to provide its students be obtained elsewhere for less cost?

I think the answer is a resounding and emphatic "Yes!"

There are dozens - if not hundreds - of ~$20 books on RE Investment available. If you want, most of these can even be checked out from the library for free!

Then there are a multitude of $300 audio "courses", endless varieties of "boot camps" that range from $2K to $10K and up...

How about the many real estate investment clubs present in every major city? And what about spending $300 to get a real estate license (and take advantage of the accompanying education and networking opportunities afforded by attendance at the required classes)?

NRU ain't the only game in town.

Combined with the problems I've detailed in the main post here, the plethora of cheaper alternatives available make it clear that "investing" in an NRU "education" is a profoundly bad idea.

ALL OF US WITHIN THE NRU COMMUNITY ARE GRATEFUL THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO BE AROUND SUCH A NEGATIVE PERSON. PERSONALLY, NOUVEAU RICHE HAS CHANGED MY LIFE. I DON'T HAVE TO WORK A JOB ANYMORE. I DID EXACTLY WHAT THEY TAUGHT ME TO DO, AND I'VE RECIEVED EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID I WOULD. I ASK GOD TO BLESS JIM P. AND HIS FAMILY FOR CREATING SUCH A WONDERFUL BUSINESS. I KNOW WHATEVER I SAY WON'T BUDGE YOUR STUBBORN MIND, WHICH WON'T GET YOU ANYWHERE IN LIFE BY THE WAY, BUT FOR EVERY ONE ELSE, IT IS TRULY LOVELY. AND BY THE WAY, INTEREST-ONLY LOANS ARE EXCELLENT FOR BUY-AND-HOLDS. WHERE DID YOU LEARN THAT THEY WEREN'T? ONE OF THOSE BOOKS THAT YOU CHECKED OUT OF THE LIBRARY? OR SOMEONE WHO IS AN EXPERT AND ACTIVELY MAKING THEMSELVES WEALTHY VIA A BUY AND HOLD STRATEGY? WHY WOULD YOU THINK INTEREST ONLY IS BAD FOR A BUY AND HOLD???? MAYBE YOU NEED TO TAKE A CLASS . . .

I appreciate all of your comments, I have been doing some reserach on Nouveau Riche as well. As part of that due diligence I came accross your posting. I checked out the listing you said had not been sold for a few years, and verified the information you found through the Maricopa County Assessor information.

So I went back to the student advisor who is trying to have me join, and asked them to explain why there was a discrepancy. Here is what I got back:

"I did find out the answer to your question. I called the Real Markets Experts in the Arizona area."

"The listing that you were looking at was from 2002, and sold for $139,000. The Nouveau Riche member who bought it re-sold himself it in 2006 for $254,000. This was an old sale, and shouldn't have come up as one of the 20 last sales on the website. I have pointed this out to the RME in Arizona, and since it is a tech issue, they will be addressing it and taking those old listings off the website."

"Nothing has been for sale in the Phoenix metro area on the Investror Concierge since 2003/early 2004 because there is no cashflow on the homes there, same as California. They only sell homes in the fastest growing areas, ones that have equity and positive cash flow."

"In reading the info about the "5.25% interest-only loan" being suspicious, again this loan is from 2002-2003, not a current loan. And that probably was the interest rate when this property in Phoenix was originally sold in 2002."

"If you need further clarification, please feel free to contact Irwin Wilson at (480) 850-1504, or e-mail him at iwilson@realmarketexperts.com"

I did some random checking of a few other properties listed as sold on the site. For instance, the Georgia listing on Caitlin Lane did show up as a February 2007 sale for the correct amount. So some are up to date.

I am still not sure whether I am going to sign up or not. Still nervous and leaning against. I may do it myself or try another program. But would be interested in your take on this additional information.

Thanks for your question and the additional information you've given me on this. I've done some digging and this is what I've found:

The listing that you were looking at was from 2002, and sold for $139,000.

That's not exactly correct--the info is off by 2 years. The house was sold by a Lane Investment Properties, LLC (which I suppose we can assume is a puppet organization for NRU) to a James P Allfrey on August 25, 2004. Mr. Allfrey put down $2,500 and took out a first mortgage with Countrywide for $111,200.

The Nouveau Riche member who bought it re-sold himself it in 2006 for $254,000.

I don't have time to address the other points in your comment at the moment. Rest assured, however, that I'll get to them in the next couple days. You can bet I'm going to have fun looking up all the recorded documents I can find relating to Mr. Allfrey, Lane Investments, and J&S, in the meantime!

As promised, I have a couple other things I'd like to say in response to your comment...

First, I was originally going to disparage the "Real Market Experts" for getting the details of the Acoma property so wrong, but in thinking about it I realized that we probably just have a classic example of the "telephone game" going on. Who knows how many links there have been in the chain, here?

On the other hand, doesn't it seem a little Mickey Mouse for there to have been a 3-year-old property listing sitting in the "Last 20 Sold" queue?

I do give them props for admitting that the Phoenix rental market right now is completely atrocious (as I myself have detailed). Does that mean, though, that buying a rental property, sight-unseen, in a totally unfamiliar market is a good idea? I doubt it. My father owns two rentals in Los Angeles (he now lives in Mesa), mainly because they used to be primary residences and selling them now would result in huge tax hits, due to appreciation. Vacancies in these properties are a huge, expensive hassle.

Isn't it interesting that James Allfrey only kept 3302 W Acoma for about a year? Given the large transaction costs associated with real estate, I am made to wonder. Why sell when the house supposedly has a positive cash flow? True, September 2005 was basically the top of the market, but still... "Buy and Hold" means you buy and hold for the long term - not a year!

Really, though, all this is just us getting bogged down in the details. Bottom line: Even if we grant that NRU isn't a fraudulent scam, that all of the "student advisors" are honest and well meaning, that Jim Piccolo is a saint, and that the content of the classes is cutting edge investment advice, it doesn't change the fact that $16K is way too expensive.

Paul, if you decide to go for it I sure hope you'll visit here again in a year and tell us how things are going.

Thanks for the update. I am still considering and have not made any firm decision yet.

I did follow-up on a few things. The main reason the last 20 had some faulty data is that it pulls the last few sold at each of the Real Estate Market locations. I guess it did this to give you some perspective across the country (nice goal at least). The problem here was that apparently they have not sold anything through Arizona in quite a while and the IT algorithm just merrily continued to include the last few in the last 20. Your astute research uncovered the error. They appear to be genuinely embarrased by it.

As part of my diligence, an offer was extended to me to speak with some of the senior people in NR when they come to the various talks and meetings (typically the one day intensives or telephone sessions). Have not decided if I will pursue it or not.

I agree that for many people, the 16K is a lot of money. I am also not a fan of the way some money is paid back. I think that can lead to abuse by some people. Most probably will be honest.

In the scheme of things 16K is not that large, if you plan to do a large volume of buying and selling. It is very large, if you don't have the money or you are doing one small purchase. But say you were going to invest in a couple hundred thousand in property, and there is reasonable appreciation (i.e., double in 10 years), you will more than offset that cost. By way of comparison, many people pay 1% (or more a year) in stock commissions or fees. That can add up to a lot over 10 years if you do a lot of trading.

Final thought, although 16K is a lot and I don't like the sales approach, my father-in-law once said "don't let the initial sales pitch cause you to pass on something you truly want or will use. You will probalbly not see or deal with that salesman again, but you will use the product almost everyday. Don't settle for something you don't want due to the salesman." True this was for a car, but the principal still may apply. I am not saying to invest, but if after everything, the program is what you want and does what you need, and the only issue is the payment method and amount, you should still consider it if it will meet your long term goals. It is just a one time payment (I think).

One last way to look at it is, if it was just $16K with no payback would it make a difference. If it would, maybe we are ascribing to much weight to that. If not, maybe we are just fine.

Mind you this is not preaching or saying what to do. I am just raising some of my own thought process and concerns I have.

I would appreciate your further comments and thoughts, and will check the site from time to time. If I go with them or another company I am considering, I will let you know how it turns out.

You have got to be a complete idiot who wrote this blog. Not only are you a dream stealer but you are probably broke and with that said, you just can't stand it that people are making money especially when its not you!!! I have been in NRu for a year now, own 8 properties and I average over $50k/month. You want some proof, lets get together so I can not only prove you wrong and that this crap belongs in the sewer but you need to ge ta life. Have you ever thought about the hundreds of people who have bought property and are doing extremely well? What amazes me is that you twist everything, have no clue as the purpose of NRU yet you bash its business model? HHHMmm....lets see, I don't ever remember seeing a statue erected for a critic. email me so I can trash you buddy. paulcamoneyclub@gmail.com

Next we'll move to tax records. I note that the SSA just mailed out my latest earnings record, so I presume you just got yours as well. For now I'll settle for a scan of your page 3, which should show your 2006 taxable earnings.

Virtually all Communist governments came to power through revolution. Whenever any citizen of a Communist country criticizes the government, they are denounced and prosecuted for being “counterrevolutionary.” The phrase “negative thinker” is to real-estate investment what “counterrevolutionary” is to Communism: a meaningless accusation that can be leveled at anyone who disagrees with the accuser. Pyramid sales scheme pushers prefer the phrase “dream stealer” to put down anyone who tries to talk sense to their “cult members.”

It is one form of an intellectually-dishonest debate tactic known as “name calling.” Intellectually-honest debate tactics involve identifying errors or omissions in facts or logic. The B.S. artists who condemn negative thinking cannot define it. It you ask for an example, they will be forced to choose some statement of fact. For example, the statement, “It looks like rain,” might be denounced as negative thinking. But if it really does look like rain, and the group is deciding whether to set up a graduation ceremony in the stadium or the gym, what is the person supposed to say?

You are too funny!! I'm amazed at the amount of time and energy you've devoted to these posts. Are you angry that you can't afford the $16k NRU cost? If you don't like the company, then move on. Maybe you should accept that it's not for you and that no one forced the 12,000 other people who have enrolled who are doing quite fine. It's not a scam.

There is one thing that is obvious here. The people that spend the most time talking down a company or an idea are not making any real money. I will only leave one comment on here, because that is all the time I'll have to waste. I was approached by an individual who worked at NR, and I went and sat through a little briefing but it wasnt for me. I worked at Primerica for a year and a half when I was 19 and didnt want that kind of lifestyle. I am however a successful wholesaler. I flip about 3-6 properties a month and profit from $5k-$20k per house, so Im doing okay without NR. But I do believe that their business model works, If I signed up the person that introduced me would make $150 a month as long as I was there. Now I recruited hundreds of people in primerica and made nothing from their $199 that it cost to sign up. Anyone could take this business model and focus soley on recruiting and make 50% on whatever their recruits pay. So if you want to make money, listen to people that make at least 3 times your current income. and if they dont, they are not qualified to give you advice. And negative thinking wont get you anywhere. That other individual was correct about dream stealing. You could have a dream to open up tanning salons, and your broke bother inlaw could be a dream stealer by telling you how you cant open a business. You need to take your shots while you can, there will be thousands of new millionaires in the near future, so it can be done, the question is, are you surrounding yourself with the people that will help you get there, or the people that dont want anyone to succeed cause they didnt.

If anyone feels like Derek effectively countered any of my arguments against NRU then I'd really appreciate it if you'd point out exactly where he did so. Otherwise I feel like I'm just going to be endlessly repeating myself.

If anyone else feels compelled to completely disregard the substance of my NRU posts, as I believe Derek has done, and make yet another vacuous comment about my "negative thinking", then I implore you to resist the urge. By now it's beyond tiresome.

1. Look around your life (friends family , associates, relatives). Find out if they, or anyone they know has lost money on real estate. How much do you think they lost, 10 bucks? $500? $10,000+?

2. Look around at those who have made it big...how much do you think they have made? $5, $10, $500. or $10,000+ on Real estate.

SUCCESS LEAVES CLUES!FAILURE LEAVES CLUES!

Those who claim RE is a scam, or NRU is a scam needs to understand one thing: YOU ARE 100% correct.

Buying tapes, books, or college is a scam. Learning is a scam. Heck, the biggest PYRAMID SCHEME of all time is getting a job where you work your ass off to make a CEO rich. Welcome to business, capitalism, freedom, free markets and all those type of scams.

I have a success formula that boils down how life and business work: (not real, but its MY formula)

OPMMTTEE better know as OPM squared T-squareE-squared.

That stands for:

Other Peoples MoneyMistakesTimeTalentEnergy andExperience.

Depending on how many of these you leverage for or against you will determine how successful you will be.

I leverage other people to help me succeed:

Printers-I can't make my business cards by hand. I pay them, and they make me more money because I can access more people this way.

Realtors-I pay them to find me deals

Attorneys-I can't understand half of what these big contracts say, so I LEVERAGE their knowledge FOR me. and USE THEM to protect me.

College students: I pay them to pass out cards, knock doors and talk to people.

Tax attorneys: since America's tax code is meant to crush you into activity I find a way to let the IRS motivate me into doing better for me and my family.

Bank forclosures: since the banks hate REO or foreclosed properties owned by the bank, they give me HUGE discounts to take it off their hand.

Sure I get to be a landlord, sure it sucks to get calls in the middle of the night.

Thats why I leverage people who are PROPERTY MANAGERS.

I know a friend (who started his RE career with Russ Whipped me (not real name, but you get the point) This presentation was nearly free but there were good bits of info that really seemed to catch this friends attention. After that little Rah-Rah speach my friend was bitten by the R.E. (Real estate) bug. We were off and running for our taste of the American Dream.

After 6 months of studying (which I commit throughly to before spending big bux on anything) I decided that in this market at-this-time...real estate wasn't for me.

I waited...

and waited...

...and waited...

Meanwhile, my friend bought a house, fixed it up and waited and waited and waited...now, he is out $30,000 of his PERSONAL savings because he didn't LEARN, but rather thought he knew it all from one seminar and Flip this House shows.

Now he's broke, now he's stuck. He is bleeding dry with a $1800 a month house payment because he thought he could jump on the band wagon and get rich quick.

NRU is one of the few places that I can say it has the potential to do really well, or do really poorly and have a bad image.

I don't sell the courses, I don't try to market the properties. I had a little bit of money that I spend using a credit card to further my knowledge. I spend $1200 on the first 4 sets of books and figured that was enough for now. It actually costs me $35 a month to pay that off, but what the heck...

HERE IS WHERE THE MONEY MEETS THE ROAD:

I purchased a house for.....

$12,000 its a duplex, and my property manager in Dayton says we'll be able to get $800 a month on it in rents after we fix it up.

Deal Details:

$12,000 purchase $17-20,000 in repairs

Worth: $57,000

Cashflow after taxes, insurance, mortgage payment (30 year fixed) is around $200 a month.

I'll be buying another couple properties soon using a business line of credit.

I'll use 10% down to purchase a property for $43,000.

It will take $1500 to fix up and redo paint and carpet when the current tenant leaves.

the property is worth $83,000.

You do the math...

thats roughly $28000 after costs, closing fees, insurance, title company fees and other misc charges that I'll have in EQUITY after the deal closes.

Sure I could pull some out, but for now, I'll leave it there.

IF THIS DOESN'T PISS YOU OFF ENOUGH TO DO SOMETHING THEN THERE REALLY IS NO HOPE FOR YOU EXCEPT YOUR REGULAR 9-5 JOB FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Please don't flame me for that. I hope that paying 30% or more of your taxes to a Government scam, or paying $16,000 to an NRU Education scam, or working your 8-hour-a-day-while-your-CEO-gets-rich, scam will hopefully motivate you to stop thinking that this whole thing is a scam.

What is a scam in my opinion:

The fact that, from birth, we're all born and raised to think that we have to grow up and get a job and work hard for someone else's dream. I believe that the biggest scam is that schools never teach us to be independent, that they never teach us to think for ourselves and analyze things correctly.

Americans are looked at as the laziest group of people sometimes because we have all this opportunity and all this potential in the greatest nation that has existed in history, and yet, we would rather sit here and write about scams. In reality its the lazy birds ones that squawk the loudest and cry the hardest when they see another bird flying out of the cage...

Remember, its your NETWORK (of people) that determines your NET WORTH. NRU just provides you people and some education. Its up to you do to do something with it...

KNOWLEDGE ISN'T POWER. TRUE POWER COMES FROM WIELDING THE KNOWLEDGE ONE RECEIVES.

There are going to be people who spend money on things they think will help them, or things they think will make their life better.

people spend huge $$$ for cars...which lose valueTVs...which lose valueclothes, cell phones and other "stuff" to make their life better.

The fact is if you "feel" education would change your life, you need to make that decision yourself.

Personally I do real estate. I personally wasted 3+ years of teaching myself. It can be done-I've got a huge library of books that I had to dig through to get to the "good stuff".

I personally wish I had seen NRU, and I wish I had the money at that time to do something about it.

However, I didn't have $16K to put down toward my education. It took my time not my money to get me moving forward.

Now, that I've taught myself, I can say with some certainty that NRU for most people won't work.

The investment properties they produce aren't great, but they are better than dealing with a realtor...

I feel I can find much better deals out there. NRU investor concierge puts properties out there for 80- 90% of market value. I like the 40-50% deals out there. (p.s. they are out there)

I don't think most people should buy into NRU just because they hype the "8000-24,000 a month" thing...that is bogus for most people because many won't work for it.

My friend Peter in Fresno did make somewhere in that range last month.

The two people he "sold" the classes to were realtors who were looking for more education and a way to get out of the slow LOCAL RE market.

Despite what the current batch of dumbkaupfts in congress try go tell us, we're a capitalist free market federal society.

If someone can provide a service cheaper than the next guy and better than the next guy then by all means, they should benefit from that process.

I know for a fact, that Russ Whitney, Donald Trump and Kiyosaki's "training" courses amount to nothing more than (7) 3 day courses for upwards of $55,000!!!! No mentorship, no properties, no community that you can run to when you run into a bump.

With them, you get raped, then given books and you only get a year to complete it.

With NRU's $16,000 package you can get solid education, mentorship (I've personally called Bill in FL for help on several deals which saved me a TON of money) a community (there are over 40 people in our local community that are investors in some fashion. We work together to benefit each other.

I'm not saying its for you, but its for me, and I think people should have some access to non biased objective information from someone who has been in both camps...

Thats all for me.

p.s. you can call me at 559-570-0979 and leave a message if you would like to discuss this further to verify all the things I said in this and the previous posts. I'll lay it bare for anyone to see. I don't do the college marketing yet, but if someone is interested, I'll explain it a little better and perhaps save them several years of bumping around in the dark looking for a way to be come wealthy and free...

Hello Einzige, Let me start by saying that I have read all of the posts not because of the points that are made by you and your opponents but because of the entertainment. I heard about NR from an old friend that worked for Primerica for a couple of years and honestly, I didn't even make it to a presentation until after I read your blog. I wont be joining, I hold a few investment properties, do wholesales, and mine for gold internationally. I am 29 years old and did it all without a university, I guess you could say I just got lucky, or I was one of those kids that read rich dad poor dad and really took the book to heart. I see both points here, and in all honesty I sympathise more with those arguing FOR NR.

Here is the reason, Einzige; you write very well, your arguments are very concise and structured, I honestly wish I had the talent to write as well as you do. That said I need to point out though that even though your comments are very TRUE and I would even say VALID, there is a problem with them, they are only Valid and True to you, here is why.

1- If you are the business savy individual you portray yourself to be then why do you offer to share Page 3 of your SSA report? I am not married but I would be careful to show that to my wife.

2- in the comment thread where one of the prospective NR students is talking about the property in phoenix and it's issues you say that the property was purchased by the student, then transferred to an LLC, then transfered back and sold again. Now, if you know anything about SMART business practice in this country you then should be aware that it is not smart to "OWN" anything for many reasons, Taxes, Law Suites and Liabilities Etc. so given that, and you can do all the research you want on the subject of Corporation structures and Liability protection methods I came to the conclusion that that might be what this person was doing, again, I am not DEFENDING anyone, I am just saying, that from experience, that actually sounds very familiar, the first investment property I bought was under my name, then I hired a very smart Lawyer, he advised me to stop "OWNING" things, now, everything I "USE" is owned by corporations, from the Laptop I am typing in right now to the tissue I wipe my ass with. The point in fact is that no one, not you or the NR supporters have shown to know enough about business to be critics of a business that has proven to be the best business since gold.

3- You mentioned something about your father owning investment property in L.A. but not selling? or doing something with it because of the tax burden? Once again, you prove to have no knowledge about the subject, read the tax code, find out how you can literally sell property, at any time and pay no taxes on the sell, hell you can even avoid using a broker.

4- So I guess the properties NR offers their students are Pre-Tax and your argument is that after taxes and liabilities their is virtually no Cashflow? wrong again, and again, you prove to have no education on the subject, Read the Tax code, or actually, why don't you do some research on SDRPs and educate yourself on how that pre-tax can turn into NO TAX with a simple transaction and then you can keep your cashflow, as far as liabilities go, it's like this, you cant avoid changing the Oil on your car, but it takes you to work, work is how you make money, some of the money you make you spend on tires and oil, and so on so forth, I dont see you posting blogs on how the whole vehicle industry is a SCAM.... but that's a whole other ball game.

Here is the Honest truth, I mentioned that i am not joining NRU, my old friend that is in the organization thought I would be interested because I was in the business of REI, but I am honestly comfortable with My Lawyers, and my CPA, at the moment, I feel they give me the best advice and stay up to date in their fields, but if that should change one day, then I will consider furthering my education. When he approched me about NR I automatically thought "dude, you got stiffed into another one of those MLMs!" so I did some research "for his sake" and I came across this page, I honestly wasn't planing on going to his meeting but your page motivated me to go, just to find out what the drama was all about, to find out if there was such company that offers such education and compensation, and to see if I could somehow convince my friend that this was a bad idea, if it was. In turn, I came out of that meeting as a declared NO, but I did see a very smart business and an opportunity for people to learn to do what I have done for the past 8 years in a structured environment that pays them to invest in property while arguing to have the best educational system out there for RE investors. I learned in this meeting that they teach all of those things that you have shown to know nothing about, SDRPs, Corporation structures, Tax Strategies, so I am interested in checking out their seminars to see how good this education really is.

So my conclusion: you and your opponents are both on an emotional trip to prove one another wrong, the people defending NR are so emotionally attached to this system that they will die for it, you on the other hand, are so Emotionally determined to prove them wrong and Win that you are unwilling to understand that EVERYTHING, every opportunity, every business, has a chance for failure or success, every car, Toyota, BMW, or KIA can break down, everyone can buy a car, but only educated people can drive one, and you are just not willing to see it and understand it, just as they are not willing to accept that you are only ignorant to their point of view and not what they are viewing.

A word of advice, the world is changing, you can be a critic of all things, good, or bad. But does the fact that you think they are bad really mean they are bad for every person in the world? or just bad for you?

think about that before you post things that can make people loose a good chance to make their lives different..... I will check up on this in a couple of months and tell you how my friend is doing with this NR thing.

and if possible, I would like to request some new subjects that are real SCAMS that offer no opportunities for personal financial growth, like, X-MAS, Religion, Taxes, The War, MTV, CBS, CNN, FOX, Social Security, The Federal Reserve, Etc.

It's interesting that you apparently learned all you know without NRU. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, to my mind.

I hesitate to go through your comment point-by-point, but I nonetheless feel compelled to respond to a few things.

1) I don't "portray" myself as anything. I just call things as I see them, and question things I don't understand. As yet, no one has presented a compelling case to me about the legitimacy of NRU. I've asked for one repeatedly.

2) I never offered to share my SSA report. I asked Paul Murphy for a scan of his, since he's the one claiming the gobs of income.

3) I never claimed an intimate knowledge of the tax code. Nor do I feel it's my place to research tax strategies for my father and his investment properties.

4) In my discussion of the NRU student and the property in the LLC, I was simply being descriptive, not normative, as you seem to have interpreted.

5) It surprises me how often people accuse me of a hyper-emotionalism on this topic. I'd appreciate it if someone would point out where they see the evidence of this--although my emotion, or lack of it, is a completely irrelevant red herring. What matters is the facts or logic of my arguments. I'd really prefer it if we stuck to those.

6) Your "true for you" claim reminds me of the shrill "arguments" of the Marxists, who go on about "bourgeoisie logic" and how it somehow doesn't apply to the lower classes.

ALL THESE PROS AND CONS ARE SO CONFUSING TO ME. YOU HAVE PUT LOT OF PEOPLE INTO THE DILEMMA-??? TO DO OR NOT TO DO ?- OVERALL GOOD DISCUSSION. BUT ACCORDING TO ME, THE BOTTOMLINE IS HOW MOTIVATED ARE YOU ?SIMPLY BIGGER THE RISK, BIGGER THE GAIN OR LOSS ?IF YOU HAVE GOOD MOTIVATION AND SELF CONFIDENCE---GO AHEAD.DEFINITELY IN NRU- 50% WILL GAIN & 50% WILL LOSE. YOU CAN DECIDE ON WHICH SIDE YOU WANT TO BE. BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR SUCCESS OR FAILURE.IF YOU CAN NOT AFFORD THE RISK- STAY WHERE YOU ARE.BUT FAILURES ARE ALWAYS STEPPING STONE TO SUCCESS.IN MY OPINION IT IS BETTER TO TRY AND FACE FAILURE THAN NEVER HAVE GUTS TO TRY.GOODLUCK TO BOTH CAMPS.

Please have the common decency to turn off your caps lock before you make a comment. You should be aware that presenting your comments in that way diminishes the impact of anything substantial you might have to say.

The thrust of your point can be boiled down to "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

Certainly that is true enough, as far as it goes (which is not very). However, it is absolutely not an argument in favor of NRU as a potential path to success.

Thank you for responding to my comment.....I had an opportunity to come across your blog again while cleaning up some links.

I will respond in more depth at a later time but I just wanted to add a quick response to your comment in regards to me not sounding like an endorsement.

Let me make it clear.... I am NOT endorsing NRU, I still have to see how my friend does at this and How much this so called education does teach him about investing and business.... I will get back to you on his success only because I want to be able to help in proving whether or not this thing is for real, so I am glad not to sound as an endorsement because sounding like one is not what I intended.

I apologize for mistakingly implying that you where willing to share your SSA statement, what I meant to say was that asking someone else to share it with you is a bit out there, and honestly my best advice to Anyone would be to never share their personal information just to prove a point on line, so I apologize for that one.... I will get back to you in about a month or so and let you know how my friend is doing once I follow up with him.

I apologize for mistakingly implying that you where willing to share your SSA statement, what I meant to say was that asking someone else to share it with you is a bit out there, and honestly my best advice to Anyone would be to never share their personal information just to prove a point on line...

Wadafinetree,

Let me ask you: if I were to make the claim that I can, say, read people's minds, would the burden of proof be on your shoulders to prove that I can't?

Lemme answer that one for you: No.

Paul Murphy posts a comment on this blog wherein--aside from flat-out insulting me--he makes a claim about his property ownership and income. Am I simply supposed to take his claim at face value?

I'll answer that one, too: No.

My suggestion that he send me a scan of page 3 of his SSA (which, by the way, doesn't disclose any identifying information) was just that: a suggestion to him regarding a method whereby he might be able to back up his income claim with something at least a little more substantive. If you (or he) have an alternative suggestion then I'm all ears.

Meanwhile, I believe I'm entitled to disbelieve the claim--especially since he has yet to respond at all.

44. Saying they only do it for the love of teaching and sharing their secrets. Amazingly, the salesmen who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars per year selling expensive get-rich-quick seminars and mentoring, tell audiences that they do not do it for the money. They claim they just do it out of the goodness of their hearts to help people. Even more amazingly, some audience members believe this. If it were true, they could speak for free or just for enough to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

From John Reed's website, I was surprised how little this was mentioned in any of these blogs.

I went to one of their classes on Short Sales today, sort of as a preliminary on what I was getting myself into. I met with other Nouveau Riche students who were genuinely good people and said that they were ecstatic that they had signed up for NRU. Obviously they had nothing to sell me because I was already "recruited" so to speak so they were free to express their honest opinions.

I still remain skeptical because the entire time my ISA tried to sell me on the idea of turning a profit on recruiting people. However he is also a successfull Short Sales Investor and is well versed in the process and other sources he uses to obtain his listings.

He actually uses what's called a Blue List (Notice of Default, the step before foreclosure for anyone who is not familiar), as well as networking with other investors, real estate agents, public notices and referrals. I was informed he never uses the concierge and only mentions it from a marketing standpoint, aka NRU makes money off of the concierge service, so he has to market it to abide by contractual agreements but doesn't have to use it himself.

The class I went to was very informative however I don't feel I will be joining NRU for other reasons. One being that I enjoy the person to person, boots on the ground approach to Real Estate and Investors tend to lose the person in all the dollar signs. The first thing you are taught as a real estate agent is your fiduciary duty to your principal, to maintain their best interests. Investors maintain their pocket's best interests.

I guess it is this mentality that is what's getting NRU into some of its trouble. I'll end this now, seeing as I've dragged it on longer than anticipated. Back to the quote, the genuine "goodness of their hearts" or goodness of their pockets is for you, the prospective student/sucker to decide.

I just attended a meeting not too long ago I told them that I had already heard of NRU years ago in Costa Mesa they seemed like they didn't even know that there that existed in Costa Mesa or anywhere esle it was in Newport Beach they said that that was the main office

I honestly think that it's not a scam but its not neccesary either

If like you can learn real estate without spending 55k for books and to attend a "class" what they call it its really a glorified seminar its 6 times a year if it were a school I would think it would be more often just being real

In the meeting they talked about the click buy it internet concierge program now i'm pretty good at this real estate thing good enough to know that closing a deal right now is almost close to impossible if you don't have the right job right income and right amount of downpayment they made it seem like you could just click a buy a property and its really simple if you are doing any real estate transaction right now you know that it is extremely difficult to close a transaction right now and that's a owner occupied place you try to buy a investment property with 5% down I willing to bet you money that you will fail to close

what I wanna know is how long have they been in business

how many people are actually signed up in the compnay?

and are any of you NRU people willing to show actual checks from NRU or escrow checks that you recieved from transactions closed or rent checks with mortgage statements showing that your cash flowing your property

Of course everyone wants to retire and go on vacation and have nice things and you can do so having a job and investing in real estate taking your time

if you have a decent retire pllan at your job paying in 6% and there matching it after 20 years that would be at least 1.3 mil and if you start your own ira throwing $333.33 a month in it starting at 23 you'll have an easy 1.3 mil in that also making you at least 2.6 mil strong at 43 sounds good to me

plus your real estate investments on the side what you make depends upon the person and how risky or conservative they are but as long as its a smart investment that they held for let's say 10 years not even cash flowing but just breaking even would make at least another 300k on a house that you held for 10 years can be done i think this is a more realistic way of retiring for the average american

wealth and comfort comes from taking your time being careful using your brain a lil and living in your means if you can show some focus for a couple years this can be achieved very easily but most people wanna get rich not put any work in and think that its easy well i have a news flash its not like that lol

I love this blog

If you want some real deals that you can make money on email me for the real deal

This is a great blog. NRU needs to be put under the microscope by as many people as possible.

I have a friend that came to me for advice on whether she should join this group. She came to me because I have worked most of my life in some capacity that is related to real estate. I have also been a successful real estate investor.

Prior to attending an evening sales event I quickly discovered in a few seconds on Google that this was a controversial topic. That is usually a red flag for me. Most of the time, but not always, legitimate operations do not have so much negative internet media dedicated to them.

I attended the meeting and checked my skepticism at the door. Within the first few seconds my gut instinct was that these people have created something very clever but dangerous.

After being in the real estate business for decades, I find it amazing that anyone would want to pay such large fees to get an education that you can get for a few hundred dollars. Real estate is the lowest barrier to entry industry in the United States. It’s harder to get a job as a waitress! These people are paying thousands of dollars to have someone hold their hand. Always look for the highest and best use for your investment dollar. Educate yourself and invest your so called tuition fees. Spend $30 and go and buy a finance calculator with a future value of money function. Then calculate what your future opportunity loss is on your NRU tuition. Never leave money on the table.

NRU is guiding its victims into buying real estate in depreciating markets in the Midwest. Typical NRU deal is 10% down. So, best case scenario is you have 10% equity at closing. In a depreciating market there is no instant equity until you sell. The only equity that you can hope for is down payment money. Then the problem arises. The property value drops 8-10% percent in a year. Then you have to sell and the realtor fees, price negotiations and buyer incentives eat up another 10%. Wow, you lost your 10% down and another 10% in selling fees. (This is where the NRU sheeple are supposed to tell me, in CAPS, that NRU will sell the property for free). That’s a whopping 200% loss! And they want you to call your friends. Keep your money in your 401K. The Midwest real estate will appreciate at 3% best during the next 20 years. S&P500 will probably be in the 8% ball park. People, please do the math. Its not as good as it looks.

NRU positive rent properties. Wrong. They say that the seller is supplementing the rent for the first several months so that the property will cash flow. Wrong. You are buying the property and that means you are providing the funds. You are giving the seller money. He is in return taking your money and paying your money toward the rent so that it looks like a positive cash flow. It is your money; you are paying the rent. Get it? This is negative cash flow.

They promote buying income property sight unseen. Really, in the last twenty years in this business I thought that I had heard it all! Try reading a book on common sense.

Looks like a pyramid, sounds like a pyramid, smells like a pyramid. Pyramid. But NRU calls it Direct Sales. Never have I heard of a company straining so hard to make sure that you understand that they are not MLM or a pyramid, but that they are direct sales. I got my first job at twelve as a paperboy. The local newspaper didn’t tell me that I had to hire four more paperboys every month to get paid! If they did I would have had the common sense at twelve to see it for what it was.

There are many more problems with this company. Long story short, my friend succumbed to the sales tactics and the promises of a better life. My friend cashed in her 401k to give to NRU and buy real estate in a bust market.

Victims never see it until it is too late. NRU is herding people into a downward financial death spiral.

As I started reading your post I found myself agreeing with you. It is definitely good advice to put things under a microscope to get the facts before making a decision.

But as I read further, your supporting claims didn't seem to backup that good advice.

I have first hand experience with NRU, having been to the college and having access to websites like the Investor Concierge to do in-depth research.

My background was in the lending industry, so I find myself very analytical and very cautious, and after doing my research on NRU inside and out I can safely say that they offer a great program.

I often read blogs like this one so that I can keep an open perspective on how the public perceives this community, but I am usually upset to see how many people make assumptions about NRU and really don't know the truth.

The Education:

NRU offers quality education. I have been a student for 2 years and I have not yet heard another student say anything negative overall about the college. I have heard criticism about a class or two, or perhaps an instructor, but 100% of the students have been happy with their experience. The only negative feedback I have ever heard is from people who have not attended the classes!

Your feedback on the IC is very assumptive. First of all, is the Investor Concierge a needed service in the marketplace today? Absolutely. There are many people who are looking to invest in real estate, who have good credit and money for down payments, but are limited in their time to find deals and do not wish to manage them. Many of these people live in high income cities where local real estate requires high down payments and rarely can maintain a positive cash flow after expenses. So the idea of having a service to find properties for them nationwide is a huge benefit for people.

Nobody is suggesting that students buy these properties sight unseen. That is simply an option for them if they desire. I grew up around real estate investors and they would often buy real estate sight unseen. Is this your first time hearing of this? But that is beside the point because investors are encouraged to visit the property in person if they can.

If you just went to an overview meeting of NRU, how could you know so much about the Investor Concierge? They show about 5 slides on the IC lasting about 10 minutes. So let's say you went home and visited the site. Still, you would just have guest access, which is still very limited compared to full access. My guess is that you read some reviews on the internet from others who also don't have access.

For instance, you are making an assumption that the seller is offering incentives that make the cash flow positive, and when the incentive expires that it would be negative cash flow. This is just not the case. When someone says this I can tell they are just repeating what they read online from a critic without doing any research for themselves, which is the opposite of your advice at the beginning of this post.

Are you factoring in that many investors choose to rent their home via lease option tenant with a 1-2 year contract, strike price above appraised value, with a $5000 lease option fee. If you are calculating that subsidies will be expiring, are you factoring in lease option tenants as well? In this case the investor will either sell the house or keep the fee and place another lease option tenant for another term. Also, lease option tenants generally have strike prices near full appraised value regardless of the direction of the market.

Let me ask you this question:

If there were newly built properties that could be purchased at 5%-10% below appraised value, with a 30yr fixed loan with 10%-20% down payment, and additional seller benefits for 2 years that when expired leave the property cash flow positive $200-$300/mo would those be good deals for someone?

You see, I just logged on and saw some deals like this. I find it funny that everyone has an opinion without seeing for themselves. Follow your own advice and sit with a student and have them pull up the Investor Concierge with their access level and take a look at some properties.

You will find single family, condos, townhomes, new construction, pre-construction, etc. You will find model leasebacks, lease option strategies, long term holds, etc. You will find $50/mo-$1000/mo positive cashflow based on the deal.

Bottom line is that there is a need for properties like these and the Investor Concierge offers them. Some people have fear of renters leaving and having the house vacant, so some of the deals are tailored to those types of investors with rental guarantees. Some have fear of having to do many repairs, so new construction homes are more appealing. And so on. These deals are tailored to niche groups of people to help them overcome their fear of investing.

Direct Sales vs. MLM

I doubt that NRU is going way out of its way on this topic like you suggest. Really it is quite simple. NRU is obviously not MLM because they don't pay on multiple levels.

They offer the opportunity for people to help market their products and they pay them directly. The only reason there is even any discussion about this at all is because NRU chooses to have community members train each other rather than handle all training at the corporate level. So if someone wants to market NRU's products, they would need to get trained and certified to do so. They are not paid during this training period. Once they have a few sales under their belt, then they are certified and are paid straight from the company and receive their entire referral fee without it being split up by anybody.

Here is how Wikipedia describes Direct Sales:

"Direct selling is the marketing of products or services to consumers through sales tactics including presentations, demonstrations, and phone calls. It is sometimes also considered to be a sale that does not utilize a "middle man" such as a retail outlets, distributors or brokers. This is needed where the products value like in Insurance, needs more explanation and cannot be purchased off the shelf.

At its best, direct selling can be an opportunity for individuals to find fulfilment, express their entrepreneurial talents and gain financial independence. At its worst, it can become a kind of pyramid scheme."

So you can see why there is some controversy over this. However, a good look at NRU would show that they are on the solid side of direct sales and building up a great reputation. The education, like insurance, requires more explanation so it makes sense to have independent contractors in the field.

If you are reading this far and you are still considering whether or not NRU is a good opportunity for you and your family, here is some advice that I can offer you.

Call/email the Independent Student Advisor that introduced you to NRU and request a sit down meeting with them. Print out this information and present it with an open mind to hear their feedback and allow their opinions as well.

Request to have them log into the Investor Concierge so that you can see a few deals yourself that you would have access to if you were a member.

Have them log into the NRU business center and show you a couple of video classroom samples so you can see how high quality the education is.

Ask for a FREE voucher to attend an upcoming Intensive workshop to experience one of the teachers live in your local area.

Attend a few more of their local events and network around and meet some of the investors that are having success or some of the marketers that are having success and see the results in person for yourself.

At the end of the day I am confident that you will be shocked at how much better NRU is than some of the negative critics want you to believe. Or perhaps you will learn that NRU is not right for you, which would save you from a significant investment that you are not ready for.

First of all, I am assuming nothing. A solid business rule is to never assume anything. I base my findings strictly on NRU material and information directly from NRU students. NRU will have many reasons to be upset with me in the future but this should not be one of them.

The Education

NRU is missing the point or avoiding it. I’m sure the education at the so called university in Arizona is shiny, fancy and at the end everyone is excited for their new career as a real estate investor / $20,000 a pop real estate school recruiter. And with classrooms filled with marks paying $20,000 a piece I would bet they are making the best presentations of the material as possible. The classes are the cash cow and the students are the cattle.

Once again my point is that the education is nearly free. I don’t need to enumerate all the different and inexpensive ways to get a real estate education. The point is to save your NRU money and invest it. Keep it in your 401k or wait and use it as a down payment later. There are infinite better things to do with your money than give it to NRU.

Also, NRU mentions that everyone is happy as a pig in @#$% with the education that they receive from the NRU brainwasher factory. Well, keep this in mind people; Charles Manson’s followers where happy at the time. Being happy with what is happening at the time doesn’t mean that it is the right course of action.

The Investor Concierge:

People this is the one of the greatest parts of their scam. They are creating a belief that this service is some sort of unique phenomena that only exists at NRU. You have to pay $20,000 to get full access. Well, I have an answer to that. www.realtor.comRealtor.com is your own personal free investor concierge. Again, free. You will have to invest in a financial calculator to run your own numbers, but that is very simple. If you have a problem with that go and talk to some local banks, they are hungry for business and will help you. Also, a realtor can get access to the MLS services for you for free. My point here is that it is a buyers market. There is an overabundant supply of property. Buying investment property is easy now. Why you ask, because the market is in turmoil. No one wants property now. The smart money is out before the peak of the market and converted into cash. Smart money doesn’t buy in these market conditions. But these economies for some reason do not exist at NRU. For some reason at NRU it is a great time to buy. For the remainder of the world, real estate is a depreciating asset. Who wants a depreciating asset?

Buying Properties Sight UnseenPlease use common sense when taking on such risk. Inspect anything you buy.

Positive Cash Flow

My conclusions are my own drawn from information from NRU materials and NRU students. NRU properties do not generate positive cash flow if the seller is directing the buyer’s money to the renter. When ever the rent is supplemented to create the illusion of positive rent it is just that, an illusion. People do not buy property in a declining market. Also do not buy negative cash flow property unless you are comfortable taking the negative rent out of your paycheck. The reason is that you may get stuck with that property after the NRU’s rent subsidized honeymoon period is over. Then that negative difference has to come from you. Why buy a property that is not currently appreciating and may turn into a liability. These are basic principles in the investment world that do not apply to the economic vacuum that NRU lives in.

Lease Options / Strike Prices

People, this is a very important and simple area. Please do not listen to NRU’s persuasion and sales rhetoric here. Listen to what I have to say and then check on it your self. The information that they give you benefits their wallets and this section is a classic attempt at distorting the truth to make you feel at ease.

A lease option is basically an agreement to rent a house and exercise the right to buy later in the future. Now let’s say that you get into a $500,000 lease option with a right to exercise the option and buy the house in two years. You live in the house for two years paying a monthly lease fee. Two years later the house is worth $600,000 and you have an option to purchase for $500,000. Fantastic news, you just made $100,000 before your purchase fees. This scenario happens in an appreciating market and benefits you and not the seller.

Now, let’s look at the declining market scenario. After the two years the market value of the property is $400,000. You do not want to buy the house for $500,000. So you walk away. You don’t take advantage of the option. Leave the owner with the negative equity property that just lost $100,000. Do you want to be that owner down $100,000 in two years? That scenario is happening all over the US and will continue to happen for the next several years. Keep your money in your 401K. Don’t listen to these people.

A strike price is the just the right to buy the property when the price rises to a certain level. Strike price is a term common to commodity futures, structured derivatives, commercial real estate and other markets. It isn’t normally used in residential real estate, but NRU probably adopted it to sound flashy and to impress you with their vast technical knowledge that doesn’t exist.

They mention the lease fee of $5000 that you get to charge the leaser. Not a bad idea to charge a fee to help with the seller side of the HUD closing costs if the leaser wants to buy the property. In a declining market $5000 is not going to help stop the bleeding. This fee is insignificant.

Contact a local Escrow company to get a lease option performed and recorded. It is simple and inexpensive.

Let me ask you a question

Here you have your NRU sales man setting up a great purchase scenario and asking you a loaded question about it being a good deal or not. This is a basic and ineffective sales strategy once you recognize it. Let’s ask each other some similar questions to make our point.

If someone gave you a bag of free money would that be nice? Yes that would be great. If you won the lottery wouldn’t that be nice? YesIf you could place tiny ads in newspapers all around the world and make millions of dollars would that be good for you? Yes that would be great.If I could sell you a property for 10% below market and it would generate $200 a month positive cash flow, would that be great? Yes that would be great.

The answer to these questions is always yes. They are not ethical and are designed to deceive you. Since we are in a declining market, ask yourself the following question and see if you can live with the possibility.

If I could sell you a property that could potentially lose 30-40% percent of its value in the next 5 years, you can’t rent it out for a positive and you will ruin your credit in foreclosure and bankruptcy because of it. Would that be good for you?

Don’t fall for their deception. Be smart my friends. Caveat Emptor!

Direct Sales vs. MLM

Per Wikipedia: It is sometimes difficult to distinguish legal and reputable MLM’s from illegal pyramid or Ponzi schemes. If participants are paid primarily from the money received from new recruits then the company is a pyramid or Ponzi scheme, which is illegal in most countries.

At NRU you can make $20k-$30k a month by recruiting new students. You get $8k of their tuition. Call the local university in your home town and see if their employees have the same compensation package. Come on people, have you ever seen a clearer cut example of a Pyramid / Ponzi scheme?

Think about what happens if you are last person into the NRU system. You can’t make your money back. That is the danger of a pyramid.

Take Action

All NRU prospects: Please, I implore you to do some research. Take a basic financial planning class at your community college. Talk to the professor. Buy a finance calculator and learn how to use it. Perform a cost benefit analysis. Call Suze Orman and run this scenario by her. Do whatever you have to do to get information from someone who is not trying to sell you. Buyer bewares!

Once, you figure this out for the scam that it is then call everyone that you know. Post on websites, blogs, email your friends. Be ethical and protect people from these sharks.

Your comment can readily be interpreted as an attack on me--i.e., as you implying that I am intent on "spend[ing] all my time trying to extract money from others under false pretenses"--in which case I believe you have me confused with "NRU Skeptic" or some other NRU supporter.

Please note that I am the original author of this blog post and echo much of what you have said here. Thanks again for taking the time to tackle these issues.

Well, we all appreciate you sharing your insight with us. There are several people that probably agree with your line of thinking and several that don't. I definitely agree that any investment worth making is also worth researching in depth. Our thought process is very similar yet our outcome is uniquely different.

I am someone who went the route of free education myself, before participating in the NRU program. I learned a lot for free, but a system like NRU was what I needed to take action and create results. Free education works for some people and doesn't work for others. The fact is that NRU is a good fit for some people and a bad fit for others. I think it is great to hear you share your views because it will help people decide if NRU is for them or not.

I am one of the most skeptical people you will meet. I am very analytical and research everything possible before making a decision. I did all the things you recommended, as well as researching NRU as a possible solution, and in the end, I decided to enroll with NRU. That was one of the best financial decisions I have made in my life. It was a good decision for me, but that doesn't make it a good decision for someone else, like yourself.

So we disagree, which is totally cool. I am a voice of someone who is pleased with my experience and investment with NRU, and you are someone who decided not to join and experience it yourself, and are not pleased with what NRU has to offer and are sharing that view.

In life we will both go our seperate ways. I choose to invest in my education, diversify my investments to include a portfolio of real estate, and continue to be an "open-minded skeptic" when it comes to opportunities.

You choose to pass on real estate if the market is declining and put your money into 401ks. You love advice from people like Suze Orman. You love spending time trying to save people from an investment in their education with a school you have never even attended yourself. All of which is cool.

The reason I even spend any time reading or responding to comments on this blog is because I respect the author. I have read dozens of his posts and I am impressed with his thought process, regardless if I agree with his view on NRU in this specific post.

What make this nation/world great is our ability to co-exist with different views.

Thank you for your feedback. Hopefully it has steared someone closer towards a decision one way or another, because indecision can sometimes be worse than the wrong decision.

First of all I didn’t think that NRU would be brave enough to post again. But now that I think about it either I have underestimated the brainwashing ability of the NRU program or he is desperate to convince people to join so that can make money of their so called tuition.

I would like to clarify that I do not like NRU because it is dangerous scam that preys on unsophisticated people who are get rich quick struck with the flashy sales pitch. Also, NRU skeptic claims that our thought processes are similar. No they are not. NRU salesmen do not think for themselves. They are parrots that simply repeat the dime store sales tactics that they learn at the Arizona scam factory. Listen to them long enough and you will see.

Now lets examine some of the statements are NRU salesman has made in his post. First he begins with the education. Here he uses the strategy of recognizing that a free real estate education is ok for some people and it doesn’t work for others. Like him, the salesman. The expensive $20,000 education was a good fit for him! Of course it was a great fit, he is trying to sell you. Wake up people! He will use his slick persuasion tools to convince you that you need the NRU education so that he can make money off of you. This is what he does. He is a salesman not a financial planner.

When I bought my first property I talked to several realtors and got lists of properties from the multiple listing services and drove around looking at the properties. I quickly found one that I liked, which I would live in if needed and that cash flowed. My realtor drew up an offer and I contacted my banker for a loan. I closed in 35 days. I purchased more and made a great return. I did this without a $20,000 education. It is easy people. NRU makes it sound like a big complicated ordeal. It is mostly common sense and 8th grade math skills. Don’t be fooled by this NRU education scam. Talk to people, go to the library. You will see for yourself.

I claim that 401k’s are great. What NRU won’t teach you is the opportunity cost of liquidating that money. They claim that the education costs $20,000. I claim that the future value is $200,000. That money left in a 401k or rolled into an annuity coupled with monthly contributions will grow to the $200,000k mark. Don’t worry about the monthly contribution because they will be easier than the money you are going to lose buying this declining NRU property in places like Ohio and Michigan. The reason that you don’t learn about future value of money at NRU is they don’t care about your future. They want your money now for the flashy so called education full of promise. Don’t be sold!

Our salesman claims to be one of the most skeptical, analytical people, blah, blah, blah. Who really cares what he claims. He is a salesman. His opinion is worthless. He is trying to take your money. When it comes to investing don’t take the advice of that guy that stands to make $8000 from you. He might as well be a carjacker. Research this yourself. Don’t let the salesmen claim that he is analytical and wouldn’t get into this unless it was solid, blah, blah, blah. Do the homework yourself. Make your own decision.

Next we have our NRU salesman saying that we agree to disagree. In life we go our separate way, he is the voice of someone with experience and investment at NRU, blah, blah, blah. He is trying to sell us again. Our differences are not cool as he claims. He is trying to separate hardworking people from their retirement money for a promise of get rich quick. This is as despicable as it can get. I am here to defend people from these personal finance parasites. Don’t let them eat away your retirement nest egg.

Salesman claims that I love advice from people like Suze Orman. Yes I love advice from people that are educated in the field of investing and financial planning. I love people that attended a real school and are actually trying to help people. One of the NRU personal finance parasites that I recently met used to sell Avon years ago. Then she was out of work until last month. Now, she is an investment community member trying to get at someone’s 401k as we speak. Are you really going to trust an out of work, ex Avon lady to stand in your financial helm? So by all means people talk to a professional financial planner not an unqualified NRU salesman.

Finally, we have our salesman closing by saying that indecision can sometimes be worse than the wrong decision. This is another pressure sales tactic that attempts to elicit action from you. This indecision that our salesman speaks of here is not indecision, it is fear. Good old fashioned fear that something is frightfully wrong. It’s the sneaking, almost unconscious feeling that you are being sold. This indecision is your natural defense mechanism against these wolves. And we all know that the indecision that protects you from NRU is always better than making the wrong decision of giving your hard earned to these sharks.

In closing remember the following and tell your friends:

NRU is a clever but dangerous scam. These people are charging their so called students $20,000 to be brainwashed into liquidating 401k and retirement savings to buy real estate in a declining market. They prey on people that do not know anything about investing. Per the US Dept of Education the school is not accredited anywhere. This is a slick ponzi, pyramid scheme where you make money of the people that you bring in below you. Tell everyone you know to beware of these sharks!

You claim that "I am desperate to convince people to join" so that "I can make money of their so called tuition"

How am I selling anyone? I am encouraging people to do research to find out if this company is right for them. I happen to like the company and you don't. Plain and simple. If they wanted to enroll with NRU, how would that be a "sale" for me? I am not offering my contact information or any way for people to get in touch with me. Just like you, I am simply voicing my opinion of NRU.

You wrote: "NRU salesmen do not think for themselves. They are parrots that simply repeat the dime store sales tactics that they learn at the Arizona scam factory."

There are 10,000+ NRU community members and you have met probably one or two and you are making some pretty rude claims about them. Readers should catch on that this commenter is pretty ignorant in their facts and statements about NRU.

Many of the NRU community members that I have met are successful real estate investors and business owners with a high level of intelligence. NRU teaches a more conservative approach to real estate investing and it attracts sophisticated investors, novice investors and beginner investors with the variety of levels of classes offered.

You wrote that we should find our deals on Realtor.com and talk with Realtors. Well, Chris Kyler, who is the CEO of the Utah Association of Realtors, has recently said that "NRU is the best equipped group of investors in the nation to tackle a market like we have now".

Your motive is to try and save people from an investment you think might be bad for them, although you have not made the investment and experienced it yourself. Still, if I felt the way that you did about NRU then I would probably be trying to talk people out of it as well. That is my skeptical nature.

My motive is to help people see that NRU can be a smart investment for the right person. I have personally experienced the education and am speaking from first hand experience. I get no credit in any way for them enrolling, so there is no financial benefit for me sharing this information, just as there is no financial benefit in you sharing.

PWC wants you to find a realtor and go look at a bunch of houses until you find one that is cash flow positive and buy it. He says "it is easy folks"! Wow, what great advice.

So what about people that live in areas like California where the median home price is $500k? What advice do you have for a reader who lives in say, San Francisco, who has always wanted to build a portfolio of cash flowing real estate. What if there credit score isn't perfect and they don't have $50k for a down payment? What then?

Real estate investing is not as easy as PWC would like you to believe. It is hard work. Sure, you might get lucky from time to time, but most sophisticated investors that I know rely heavily on education on a wide variety of real estate investing strategies as well as a "network" or "investing team" to work with to get deals done when you can't do the entire deal yourself.

Since joining NRU I have been able to build up an investor team including hard money lenders, credit partners, bird dogs to find deals, potential lease option tenants looking for properties, and so on. I will admit, much of my REI knowledge has come from information that is free to the public, and much of my knowledge and network has come from NRU.

If you feel that you can do it all without NRU then by all means, don't enroll! But if you have already paid a tuition at "the school of hard knocks" and investing on your own hasn't worked out well for you, then by all means, consider the NRU community!

PWC keeps claiming my opinion is worthless because I am a salesman, but that is the furthest thing from the truth. He/she is just unwilling to believe that NRU might actually deliver a great education and people might actually be pretty happy with the results. I am not a flashy salesman. Think about it for a moment. How would I get any credit for any of this?

Think of it this way. If you read this post and decided to enroll with NRU anyways, and found out that the school was the real deal and offered great education, wouldn't you be motivated to come back to a site like this and comment to help a potential NRU researcher to see that it really isn't as negative as they would have you believe? That is how I feel. I am commenting because I know that NRU is not all these things that people like PWC claim.

PWC and others that like to bash NRU haven't even attended any classes there! Their information is all based on assumptions and second/third hand information.

I have personally attended over 6 weeks worth of classes at NRU. The investment was well worth it for me. The education is very high quality. Networking with other like minded investors has been priceless. Since joining NRU I have been able to earn enough income to quit my job and be a full time real estate investor. I am so glad I didn't listen to the negative critics with so much to say but so little first-hand experience.

It hasn't come easy for me. I have worked my tail off to get where I am. Don't think you are just going to get rich tomorrow. Whether or not you decide to enroll with NRU, if you decide to get started in real estate investing, be sure to get educated, build a local team of like minded investors and professional contacts, and take action.

PWC claims that "I am trying to separate hardworking people from their retirement money for a promise of get rich quick."

How far from the truth could that be. The reality is that most people in America currently don't have a retirement plan or "nest egg" and need to drastically do something about it before it's too late!

Currently, less than 20% of U.S. workers have employer pension plans and many of those plans are on shaky financial footing.

But what about Social Security? Well, Social Security is typically replacing less than 40% of pre-retirement income.

In 1999, the national savings rate dipped below 3% for the first time since 1959. Since then it has bounced back and forth between being negative and positive, but so low that many Americans need to really start thinking about retirement.

So I don't disagree with PWC and others who say you should put your money in 401ks and wait until the market bounces back up and then get a realtor to find you a house if you want one. That is fine. Others like myself don't choose to go that route. We choose to focus on a more aggressive approach to building wealth through creative real estate investing techniques and as entrepreneurs by starting up our own companies.

PWC writes: "Yes I love advice from people that are educated in the field of investing and financial planning. I love people that attended a real school and are actually trying to help people".

So do I, which is one of the many reasons I enrolled with NRU. When researching the instructors, I was surprised to see how highly educated many of them were. Many of them are wealthy enough they don't need to be teaching, but they "are actually trying to help people".

Here is a list of the current instructors at NRU. See for yourself the diversity and quality of the instructors. Better yet, here are some free samples of education I was able to find online from some of our instructors:

PWC, In your closing remarks, you mention that NRU is not accredited and is a scam, etc. This shows that you are making more assumptions without doing the research yourself. If you look into the process of accreditation, it doesn't happen overnight. It is a process that takes time and NRU has been working on it and has publicly stated it's current position until official news is out. Here is a quote from a recent interview featured in a national publication:

Nouveau University offers much more than just an education. They hired “the best in the west” to reach beyond the scope of entrepreneurial and real estate investing sessions and into the realm of accredited degree programs designed to support and enable students to take action and achieve goals. NU’s team will develop degree programs offering undergraduate and, later, graduate degrees in the areas of management, leadership, accounting, finance, marketing, and real estate."

These programs have been in the works and are being developed as we speak. Fully accredited undergraduate and graduate degrees, does that sound like a ponzi scheme or a scam?

If you are reading this far down the comments on this post you must really be dedicated in your research before enrolling with NRU. I applaud you on that. I did my research and realized that most people didn't know what they were talking about. So I got my information first-hand and I sure am glad that I did.

I wish you the best in your research regardless of the decision you make. Some of you may even be better off without NRU, so if you are planning to join because you think it is the easy way to riches, then please don't. I would hate to see you let down. Real estate investing is hard work and takes time, energy and resources to become successful. Many people do not make money in real estate, and many even lose money. If you do enroll with NRU, please take your education serious and most importantly, take action!

Sorry readers, I do not have the time to respond in detail to our NRU salesman. Dealing with these people proves to be an endless circular arguement.

Keep in mind the following:

NRU is not a school but a high priced seminar pyramid scheme. Per the United States Dept. of Education there is no accreditation. NRU tries to impress you by proudly claiming that they are in the process of applying for accreditation. Anyone can start a so called school and apply for accreditation. It means nothing; the mere act of application does not equal a university. Another slick sales tactic. The slick sales tactics become more and more obvious. Would you go to an expensive school to earn a bachelor in science with the promise that they someday might have accreditation. Hello? They may not even get the approval. If they do get some sort of limited accreditation it is of little value. Google real estate licence school and you will get thousands of schools that have some sort of real estate accreditation; this is of little value. This is a cheap sales tactic that attempts to assign value to thier useless overprices scam of a school. Read a book, do some research and save your money. Beware of the NRU salesman.

Another one of the ways that NRU tries to decieve you is by making you believe that real estate transactions are part of some secret and mysterious world that only NRU understands. They want you to believe that you can't understand it or learn it with out them and their $20,000 seminar. With regard to real estate investing I have been there and done that and it is not rocket science. As I mentioned before it is mostly common sense and 8th grade math skills. You can do it on your own.

Please take a basic financial planning class at a community college. And discuss this with the professor or a seasoned, certified financial planner.

Also, you do not make the $30,000 a month from real estate. This income is generated from the pyramid scheme. From tricking your friends into believing that thier retirement savings should be given to NRU.

Again, please do not do business with these gypsies and do the ethical thing and tell everyone you know to beware of the NRU scam artist.

Also have you seen the signs? Real Estate Investor seeks aprentice $20,000 - $30,000 a month. These signs scrawled on cardboard with crayons are mindlessly placed in ditches around my community. The signs are written to look like a job offer but when you call they are trying to rah, rah you into giving up $20,000.

Someone call Warren Buffet and run this by him for a good laugh. I can see the NRU salesman reading this now. "Warren who?"

I would like to respond to one point that you've made a number of times, now. You say, basically, that NRU is good for some people and not good for others, but you don't really provide much of a guide for people to know which camp they fall into. If I read you correctly, it seems like the only way to truly find that out is to give NRU the $16K. If I'm mischaracterizing your position then I hope you'll correct me.

Meanwhile, I wonder if that's the same sort of caveat you'll get from McDonald's when you buy a franchise from them... "Oh, it works for some people and not for others. Good luck to you!" ... Somehow I doubt it.

NewISA- The question I ask myself is what will you skeptics say when NU does get an accreditation. Did you think the same about University of Phoenix when they first began to pioneer in online education? Do you think the founders of UOP are part of this big scheme? How about Mark Kohler Attorney At Law & CPA is also at the top of this pyramid scheme making all the money? http://www.lawyersareliars.com/

NRU becoming accredited is about as exciting as your corner restaurant passing the health inspection. It has zero bearing on whether or not NRU actually provides any real value.

And now we've hit upon, I think, the key point. Perception of a thing's "value" is subjective. I might provide a "Secret to Creating Wealth" educational service with a price tag of $10,000 that consists entirely of the sentence Spend less than you earn. I have no doubt that a certain number of buyers would come away from the transaction sincerely believing they received their money's worth. One way of psychologically dealing with the shame of your mistakes is to vehemently deny - even to yourself - that they are mistakes at all.

Your other two comments, George, strike me as non sequiturs. But I'll mention that I worked for a short time at UoP as an "admissions counselor" (I use scare quotes because the job was basically cold calling). This site has lots of legitimate criticisms of the University of Phoenix.

I have a quick question. Is the fact that it's an MLM the major turn off? What if another company came along and provided a home based education system that was only 1000 bucks, and no one else got a dime of that money except the company. Also if the company offered proprties at say a 25% discount of FMV (fair market Value) instead of putting renters in it so you could do as you please with the property? What if the company also provided mentors that were paid by the transaction between the company and the buyer (i.e. mentors are only realtors and mortgage professionals)? And, the mentors walked you through the process of becoming a Joe Blow to becoming a Savvy REII just want to now.

Is it not obvious, based on my original discussion of the mathematics involved?

What if another company came along and provided a home based education system that was only 1000 bucks, and no one else got a dime of that money except the company[?]

Your hypothetical is too vague to really answer, though a thousand bucks for--presumably--a set of DVDs and books seems a bit steep to me.

Also if the company offered properties at say a 25% discount of FMV...?

There's a company that does this?

What if the company also provided mentors that were paid by...the buyer...[and who] walked you through the process of...becoming a Savvy REI[?]

How do you define "mentor"? How much are they paid? How do you define "Savvy REI"?

How are you, once you become a Savvy investor, going to compete with the company you mention that's apparently already buying up all the investment property that's being sold at more than a 25% discount?

And why, if there is such a company, would you need to become a savvy investor at all? They're already doing the work for you, it would seem. All this mentoring and home study crap seems superfluous.

I just wanted to thank you for this blog and the discussion. I have been interested in investing, and I went to one of these meetings last night because I was told it was a networking meeting. I asked if they were representing a company and he said "we're all from different companies just coming together to tap into each other's resources." Sure...If they're legit, why didn't they just tell me upfront that they represented NRU ?

In my research on REI, one of the principles I have discovered from people NOT trying to sell stuff is that you have got to know your market to succeed in REI. In fact, that's true of any business. It sounds like they don't encourage market research...just click and buy?? They encourage you to buy properties in cities you don't actually live and work in. How in the world are you supposed to know what you're getting into? I may purchase my business cards online, but not my investment properties!!

I'm heading to the library and a local REI meeting.

It may take me a while to learn, and I'll probably make a few mistakes, but it seems like the best things in life take time anyways. In fact that's pretty much what life is, one big learning process. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

No problem.I thought of a couple other things I find to be interesting.

Last night as I was talking to the "mentor," I noticed he had an iphone and made a comment about it. He said,"oh you like it, well you get one when you sign up." I looked at their website...no mention of an iphone. I gotta hand it to him, he's using his head to sell this stuff, but I can buy one for a lot less than what for what he's selling it.

Then, what is one thread you can find running through every reputable university? They pay intelligent people to come to their school so they will look good. My school liked the way I played piano and made good grades so they gave me money to go there. If their school is so phenomenal and they just want to mentor people, where are the scholarships? Surely these people who have experience in investing and maybe some skills should be receiving some incentive for choosing their school. Sounds like they just want money, not reputation. Just a thought...

Hello Enzeieg, and everyone that has, joined this blog in the times I have been absent. I have been getting the emails now for a while and it seems have honestly just been waiting for my friends updates and analyzing the situation more...... I have only come to one sad conclusion based on the facts. My friend has made no money yet with the marketing of the education, Last I spoke to him he said he was focusing more on what he learned in the last college which was helping people in foreclosure. Noe let me tell you guys a little about this guy, prior to what you can already read.... this guy, is not a wealthy business person, his business mindset prior to NRU was only the one that you can smell when a person involved in an MLM company approaches you to "sell you a product or recruit you" ..... a) they don't know much about the product. b) they know alot about their comp plans. so in order to keep the internet from becoming the worlds largest bathroom wall I have been checking in on him and once a week so that I can give all of you here the good or the bad news in turn to what he has accomplished with NRU. I don't have much time, so I will be brief, I have been following NRU and one student of theirs for about 7 months now, That student has now closed 8 foreclosure transactions and has turned that profit (about 235,000) back into non performing second with a firm out of Nevada with whom I will start doing business with soon as well.... I will keep you guys up to date but one thing is certain so far, what he has learned in NRU and the way he has changed in the last 10 months is something that I would have never imagined, and NRU has given him the confidence and knowledge to do so, now, I strongly encourage all of you to meet someone in NRU and ask them if you could follow them around for 1 year and document their experience with NR, and maybe, your comments on this blog, and every blog will be a little more than just emotional jibber jabber..... I will keep you up to date in regards to my friends accomplishments or failures and hope that in an effort to keep the internet from becoming a reference to excuse people's apathy we use it to report responsibly....... and I will comment on what I have read later and my reasons for saying that as well.

Given your distaste for "emotional jibber jabber," I am looking forward to your posting of those 8 foreclosure addresses, so that us "bathroom wall" readers might be able to do some independent verification of your claims.

One of the NRU mental giants is telling us that some day NRU will get accredited as the University of Phoenix has done. I work for an investment bank and we get 1000's of applications weekly. The applications that are from UOP graduates are filed directly into the shredder. If NRU aspires to be the next UOP then good luck achieving mediocrity. I doubt that NRU will ever be considered an education by corporate America or the rest of the world for that matter.

Everyone reading is able to see that wadafinetree is just another NRU shill making fantastic claims about NRU income. Let’s have the property addresses so that we can take 5 minutes to verify the chain of title and transaction amounts. This information is public record all we need is the addresses. NRU scam artists can't post that info because it never happened.

PS – wadafinetree look up the meaning of Apathy in the dictionary. Do they have English classes at NRU? Apathy would mean a lack of emotion or indifference. The bloggers here are the opposite of apathetic. They are highly interested in revealing NRU as a scam. I am highly motivated to protect as many people as possible from NRU. I have seen NRU cause financial hardship first hand. NRU is snake oil.

I don't understand the penchant the NRU folks have for leaving phone numbers in their comments here. I suspect that they believe it shows they're unafraid of scrutiny, but, really, who's going to call them?

How is a conversation by phone going to be more informative, or more convincing, than comments on a blog post?

Arthur, the rest of your comment is equally absurd. Ad hominem... Red herring... Unsupported assumption... Non sequitur... And all of it, in one form or another, already stated in this comment thread by other NRU cheerleaders before you.

If you are a high school or college graduate (I highly doubt you have a college degree), Arthur, then your obvious inability either to comprehend what you read or to form a coherent argument are a sad indictment of the school system.

It probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway: With friends like Arthur, NRU doesn't need enemies.

Arthur I haven't been called retarded since the 6th grade. Next time I am in a meeting with our financial controller, who I disagree with from time to time, I am going to call him retarded. In fact, every time that I get frustrated and my neurons start firing all at once like an atom bomb I'm going to scream "RETARD"!

Thank you Arthur, in addition to being a Real Estate investor/mentor you should give presentations on how to logically win arguments.

I hope you won't mind my engaging in a little speculative armchair psychologizing. As you've said, I have no life, so I need to occupy my time somehow. I'm sure you understand.

Anyway, your comments read like the ravings of a person who drank the Kool-Aid and has just realized, on some level, that it's poison. Now you're clutching at straws in a desperate, pathetic attempt to avoid the reality that you've been had.

I would have a measure of sympathy for you if you didn't make it so difficult.

Does the NRU compensation package include additional commissions for illiteracy? These NRU guys pride themselves on being functionally illiterate. Any legitimate business school in the world stresses the importance of proper writing skills and literacy. Who would take you serious? Imagine the math skills of these so called investment people! Scary.

Arthur's lifestylementor page "highly recommends" "The Secret." His MySpace page says he's moved to or moving to Miami (presumably with his 19-year-old girlfriend who is trying to make it as a singer and guitarist).

In two comments in succession, he says something about how no employer would pay him $20,000/mo, and that he makes $300K/year. Uh, that would be $25,000/mo. If he's making that from NRU referrals, that's clearly not sustainable.

Looks to me like a future trainwreck.

Arthur, I hope you're socking some of that money away for bad times. It looks like you're hanging out with a high-spending crowd that won't likely be supportive when the money stops flowing.

Arthur: In this context, the only things I'd truly be interested to know are the relative percentages of your income accounted for by investment profits vs. NRU referrals, how your net worth is growing, and, for comparison, the same information for the people you've referred.

That kind of information over time would be a real measure of whether NRU's program (or similar programs) are actually generating wealth or are more like a pyramid scheme. It appears to me that the early adopters can make some serious money, but it's all at the expense of those who come in later, most of whom will see a net loss.

I guess I'd also be interested in knowing if you really believe in "The Secret" and the "Law of Attraction." If you do, then I'm afraid your critical thinking skills are poor as well as inconsistent. You keep coming back here, so by your own judgment you must find "retards" and negativity appealing in your life. Then again, maybe you recognize that there are people here smarter than you are who might know something that could keep you from crashing and burning.

Per the United States Dept of Education and the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC)there is no and will not be any accreditation for NRU. They do not fit the criteria for a higher learning institution.

These two organizations are the ones who would determine if a school would be eligible for accreditation in the state of Arizona.

There are other "for sale" type private accreditations available but those are not recognized by the business community or other schools. I would imagine that NRU will buy some worthless accreditation and then make the false and deceptive claims about it. This would be typical for NRU.

Most NRU salesman are not bright enough to actually research what an accreditation actually means. Accreditation, investing, real estate and basic math skills are beyond the comprehension of the average NRU salesman.

Actually, a school like NRU should first go through the Arizona State Board for Private Postsecondary Education (http://azppse.state.az.us/) on the route towards accreditation in the state of Arizona. We will have to wait and see what road the choose to take...

Yes the Arizona State Board is the correct agency to go through so that a school can legally operate in the state. This agency would also assist any investigations that could occur due to false and misleading statements made by companies like NRU posing as a University. This is the same organization that ordered them to stop using the word "University" because they are not one. Borderline fraud on that one NRU.

However, this agency would not handle any regional or national accreditation issues.

Accreditation on a regional level in the US is the highest level before specialized accreditations.

The organization that handles accreditations in Arizona is the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. They are then monitored by the US Dept of Education. PER BOTH THESE ORGANIZATIONS NO ACCREDITATION FOR NRU.

I hate to use cap locks but maybe if I speak the same language as the NRU salesman they will understand.

Just keep your eye on Nouveau Riche UNIVERSITY (hahaha) which will be called Nouveau University over the next 6-12 months and watch what happens. The top 5 women that made University of Phx what it is today now work for us...

Without any name calling, just wanted to let everyone know that last night at the College Dr. Scott the lady who made U of Phx what it is announced the Nouveau University was approved for full accreditation for AA and BA degrees in Entrepreneurship, Finance, Accounting, Business Management, and Real Estate Investing. All technology is ordered and faculty is being trained. Nouveau University will be in Full Swing by the Summer. There will be financial aid options and the income opportunity will not change.

Success Magazine August 2008 edition will feature a 16 page write up on Jim Piccolo and the 40 acre College being built in Phoenix including 8 different style dormitories. Here is the article snippet. I will be more than happy to send the magazine to anyone that wants to read it before it is released.

Isn't the whole point of NRU supposed to be to enable its students to "create wealth" and leave the "corporate world" for "financial freedom"?

That seemed to be your point, Arthur, when you were disparaging the "pyramid scheme" that is the modern corporation.

Now the NRU supporters are trumpeting the alleged impending accreditation as if it's some sort of validation... But isn't the typical reason a person gets a business degree so that they can join the corporate rat race?

Wasn't NRU supposedly churning out successful entrepreneurs prior to trying for this bureaucratic rubber stamp? If so, why care about accreditation? If not...?

I must admit, I'm quite confused. Again, I come back to my main points:

1) The structure of NRU's "business opportunity" leads rapidly and inexorably to market saturation. Thus, promises of "$30K/Month" potential income are unrealistically absurd.2) NRU's investment strategies are not trade secrets. Real Estate investment can be learned from many places.

I'll add a third point (it's always been implicit in my arguments, but I'll now make it explicit):

3) Given the current real estate market and that NRU churns out newbie real estate investors like there's no tomorrow, right now is an exceptionally bad time to invest in real estate.

I wonder if there are any NRU cheerleaders who know how to define "arbitrage." I'm interested in an NRU supporter's explanation for why the real estate industry is apparently immune to it--as it would have to be, in order to still be profitable, in spite of the constant influx of neophyte investors.

Any takers? Arthur? NRU Skeptic? Wallace? Wadafinetree?

Here's your chance to show off some of that financial literacy you supposedly obtained from your university.

Accreditation is huge, now that your point of the impossibility of accreditation was completely destroyed you move to something else.

The whole idea is earning while you learn. Kids from High School can go here, get their degrees while referring their friends and make $30K a month. Sorry to disappoint, but the age of the entrepreneur is upon us and no the point of a degree in NU is not to get a job, but to learn how to structure oneself properly in business, make money and roll that income into real estate.

Sure you can learn it elsewhere, if you want to buy books and seminars upsale after upsale until you are $100K in debt and never buy a single property. Die how much Real Estate do you own with your superior knowledge that you have learned elsewhere.

Die time to move on to new company you have absolutely no points left and I have to go have fun and make money by helping others escape the "rat race."

Do some more research too and tell me in what type of market conditions late night real estate Gurus made their money in. In a good market you can make good money. In a down market, you can make ridiculous money. And we advise our investors not to invest until they have been to college at least twice. The investor concierge is also set up as training wheels for newbie investors. Almost no risk.

Why? This is not an answer to my questions. Why get a degree when you are, as you say, "psychologically unemployable"? What does it get you--especially if you're already a successful entrepreneur?

[N]ow that your point of the impossibility of accreditation was completely destroyed you move to something else.

Wrong. Point to where I ever said I cared about NRU's accreditation. I don't.

The whole idea is earning while you learn.

The whole idea of accreditation is earning while you learn? What?

Sorry to disappoint, but the age of the entrepreneur is upon us and no the point of a degree in NU is not to get a job, but to learn how to structure oneself properly in business, make money and roll that income into real estate.

Given that NRU is, according to you and many other ISAs, already accomplishing that, what is the point of accreditation?

Die how much Real Estate do you own with your superior knowledge that you have learned elsewhere[?]

Arthur, this is a red herring, as is much of the rest of what you wrote. I shouldn't have to point out that you didn't define "arbitrage", nor did you explain why NRU students are immune to its effects. Nor did you account for how ISAs get around the problem of market saturation (oh... and your contention that those people who don't go to NRU will end up $100K in debt is too absurd to be taken seriously).

I may have "no points left", but you have yet to effectively address the points I do have.

Arthur wrote: "The whole idea is earning while you learn. Kids from High School can go here, get their degrees while referring their friends and make $30K a month."

That's clearly not sustainable. They get $8,000 per referral (which comes from half of the $16,000 that each friend pays). They'd need to get four friends per month to sign up to make that (and they'd need to sign up an extra two friends in the first month to cover their own expense). Each of those friends would have to get four more friends to sign up to participate in the same manner, and so on.

First of all, University of Phoenix is the worst institution in the nation. The US Dept of Education reports that only 8% graduate. Employers refuse to hire graduates from that profit before integrity school. The best a student of UoP can hope for is a useless overpriced piece of paper that is only suitable to use as toilet paper. Good luck with becoming the new worst institution in the US.

UoP has been ordered to stop their used car salesman like compensation plans for the enrollment counselors. As soon as the US Dept of Education gets wind of your pyramid, student enrollment salesman scheme, NRU will be shut down.

Also your little web page link is meaningless. That is something that NRU created. It is not news when it comes from NRU. Get it Arthur? Furthermore, Success magazine will print anything that NRU pays them to print. That’s how that publication survives Arthur, advertisement revenue. The ad, if it happens will be just that an “ad”.

Doesn't anyone find it strange that NRU is pushing a degree in Accounting at the same time that they are selling an idea of becoming an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs do not get trained in accountancy, they hire accountants. It doesn’t make sense to become an entrepreneur if you’re busy creating P&L statements all day long. This is more NRU confusion.

What I find more absurd is you asking Die to research late night real estate gurus. Do you aspire to sell expensive real estate tapes to unemployed late night TV viewers? Do you have a class or degree on that?

This brings me to my next point. You can't drive around this country and spit out your window with out hitting a real estate sign. Everyone is selling and no one wants to buy. Millions of people are walking a way from their homes. Banks have more REO on their books than any other time in history. And you try to convince people they need to go to a $16,000 university to learn how to buy some houses in a buyers market? It has never been easier to buy real estate in the US. Who needs to spend down payment money on an education that is free to anyone who wants it?

Maybe you should start a $10,000 university on how to apply for a credit card.

NRU and its minions have the financial and business skills of bad used car salesman. Actually I apologize to the used car salesman for insulting them.

So what exactly is this phenomenal business structure that could actually saturate the real estate market, of all markets? Someone contacted me about this after I emailed them my resume in response to a sales with 50% commissions ad. I'm doing some research and I stumbled across this blog but I'm still not clear. I've been reading here tonight trying to figure out exactly what the issue is with this university. I see it's been since May 2007 that the debate on this blog started. Are they claiming you will definitely make that kind of money every month? I've visited their web site the person sent me to when I starting with all my questions, but I didn't see anything specific as to all that. I'm questioning the university itself, not the person who’s for it or against it because I think both will say anything to support what they believe. Does the university itself claim to be able to teach you a different way to invest in real estate? I mean have they reinvented the wheel? I'm not sure exactly what the deal is but I'm going to continue to do my homework before I get involved with another conversation with her so I can see what answers she has for me. I don't think it's rocket science that any adult should do that. While I hadn't thought about whether or not they were accredited, I think if people were using the fact that they weren't accredited against them, then it makes common sense that they should've silenced that trumpet. Goldcoast is a popular school here in Fort Lauderdale and I don't think their accredited but a lot of people still go there so I don't know. I mean anyone that likes credentials will consider NR now, whereas before they probably wouldn't. I did like the fact that the site stated you could get CEU's with the classes because with my job I need a certain amount of CEU's per year for my certification to remain active. On another note, my parents made it big in the stock market and they're self taught. It's now only good now for those that REALLY know what they're doing though. They learned how to make money in all aspects of the stock market. In the same way, although I'm not sure, I suspect there should be ways for people to make money investing in real estate whether the market is up or down. But they would have to know more than one or two ways to move their real estate though, of course. At one time, about two years ago, I was supposed to work with Primerica and I paid the $100 dollar startup cost and never did anything. The woman I spoke with said there was only $75 to pay to get me started and I don't have to buy any of the real estate education through them, does anyone know if that's true? Do they actually allow you to make money off their sales without you purchasing it yourself first?

I am looking in to NR. I have read most of the comments on the website, and I will take them into consideration. However I disagree on the price of the education. Yes you need to look at other options and I have read many books on the topic. However deciding that an investment is wrong for you does not mean it is wrong for every one. The cost is high but you also have to condsider the amount of time it would take to put such program together to educate yourself. I have not decided on what I will do but i do like that it has compiled the information together. Something that would take great time on my part. Is the company a scam? I don't think so. They are marketing to niche market. reselling the product does not mean that your competitors will increase simple because of who people are. Only a small percentage will utilize all the statagies avilable. I like that you have been fairly objective however i do find some of your comments judgmental since it appears that you have not tried the product. You are right that everyone looking into it should do there homework and see if it is a right fit.

First of all giving $20,000 to NRU to teach you how to buy real estate is not an investment. Please don't confuse their expensive fees with an investment.

I bought my first investment property in 1999 with $29,000 down. The price of the property was $89,000. I sold it in 2005 for a little over $300,000. This was a California condo which explains the appreciation. The down payment was the investment. Not the money or time I spend to get some information. Get it?

By the way, I estimated that I spend about $50 and maybe 20 hours time researching before I bought.

So by not going to NRU I saved $19,950 that I used on another property. Of course I didn't have the opportunity to jump up and down shouting and clapping my hands in a class room with a bunch of mindless suckers.

People get a life. Its just buying real estate. You don't need to pay $20,000 for someone to hold your hand unless you are mentally challenged like the other NRU students.

I think, based on the comments posted here and at the other blog posts we've both been visiting, that we can provisionally conclude that NRU appeals to precisely that group of people who are impervious to persuasion by facts and/or logic.

Say I am an employee making say $3000/month. My monthly expenses are $2700. Which leaves me with $300 a month in cash to invest or whatever.

Ok I find a property like you found and I have just enough money to buy it. Now I purchase that property and its awesome, its cash flowing about $250 a month and all is well.

Now all of a sudden the tenant loses his job, and the roof is leaking. I cannot afford the mortgage or to fix the problem. What do I do? Go into foreclosure because I do not have the cash to sustain my new investment?

BTW the education is $16,000... why do people pay 200K+ over 8 years to become lawyers and doctors and make $100,000-$200,000 a year? By the time they are 50 they are just getting out of debt and can now start their lives if the stress doesn't call them.

Arthur: "you guys should stop blogging and go buy real estate it is on sale"

It's getting cheaper. I'm not in the mood to catch falling knives at the moment. Maybe in another couple years.

Theresa: "On another note, my parents made it big in the stock market and they're self taught. It's now only good now for those that REALLY know what they're doing though."

Utter nonsense. Read Malkiel's _A Random Walk Down Wall Street_. Put your money into some low expense ratio index funds (whole market or S&P 500) and leave it there, and you'll do fine. And everybody should have a 401K and/or an IRA.

Andrew: Take $16,000 in cash and set it on fire. That will give you a similar education to NRU.

Arthur: "why do people pay 200K+ over 8 years to become lawyers and doctors and make $100,000-$200,000 a year?"

Your range includes the typical primary care physician, but not surgeons, anesthesiologists, OBGYNs, cardiologists, neurosurgeons, or doctors who teach at medical schools, who typically make a lot more. And that doesn't count investment income (though doctors are notoriously poor investors).

My sister is an OBGYN she is $240K in debt thanks to schooling. Makes $190K a year of which 48% goes to taxes since shes not a business owner or investor and has the most ridiculous mal practice insurance... Shes 33 had to refi her house 3 times in last 5 years. Has over $150K in CC debt if you dont know what your talking about stop talking.

Arthur it seems that poor financial planning runs in your family. My friend is an ER doctor and has none of your sister's problems. Maybe you and your sister should go in together and hire a fee only financial planner. Oh, sorry she can't afford that since she is broke. Maybe she can add that to her consumer credit debt.

Obviously, your NRU system doesn't work or your sister doesn't trust you or both. My bet is you don't even know what an OBGYN is and you probably don't have a sister. Why do I think that? Because you are a lying NRU salesman.

Arthur: My dad and stepbrother are both OBGYNs. I believe my dad made above the range you specified two decades ago, when a dollar was worth quite a bit more than it is today. Malpractice insurance for OBs has gone through the roof, and he's discontinued his OB practice in favor of GYN surgery. Times are certainly harder for OBGYNs these days, due to litigation and the state of health care regulation.

But it doesn't sound like your sister's doing things right if she's paying 48% in taxes and has over $150K in credit card debt. Part of it is probably being in a location with high state income taxes (and city income taxes, if she's in NYC), but with that level of credit card (not student loan) debt, she's apparently living beyond her means as well.

All I really have to say here is that the small monthly positive income you are talking about here is negligible. Over time with repairs and vacancies you are going to eat that money up. I know NRU looks at that small monthly positive like its gold but from my experience it doesn’t add up to much. A few thousand dollars a year might pay two months of monthly operating costs in the event of a vacancy. The appreciation is the only way you will really get ahead in this game.

I would never have to ask this question because I would never get myself into this situation. If you buy in an appreciating market and have a problem you will find a highly liquid market where you can quickly unload your investment for at least a small profit. In the event that you buy in today’s real estate liability market you will find an illiquid market with marketing times up to and in some cases over a year. During that year your investment will lose approx. 10% of its purchase price value and you will have approx. 8% of the sales price in seller side fees. So if you buy a house today for $300k and put down 15% or $45k and are forced to sell in a year you will lose approx. 18% of the $300k purchase price. That amount is $54k. That is all of your down payment money! This doesn’t include additional fees incurred from a vacant property during that year.

Now I have worked in the M.B.S. business for about 20 years Arthur. All we do is spend our days analyzing data so we can predict long time market trends. And what do the capital markets know from that research? They know that values are on a long term decline. Why do you think banks are unloading the millions of REO property off their books for 60 cents on the dollar? Why Arthur? Because they know that they will be worth 40 cents on the dollar in 3 to 5 years. Everyone else in the world knows to sell except NRU. NRU is going to pull a lease option strategy or some other basic concept out of their hats and change the real estate macro economics of the world. Think again Arthur.

I have a friend who took your course and paid $20,000 and bought two junk properties from your Investor Concierge. She is down $100,000 in negative equity and no one wants to option or rent them. The properties are in Michigan where values have plummeted nearly 20% since she purchased them. NRU said they were a good deal though! AND NRU MADE THEIR FEES regardless of how the investment performed. She is down nearly $100,000 since joining your brilliant organization. I have about the same amount in a non-traded equipment leasing fund and have made about $11,000 dollars from it in my sleep. She went with NRU and has lost her $100,000 and I have about $111,000. When the market does turn around I will have funds to take advantage and she will be suffering from bankruptcy.

So if you want a better answer to your question then look to your NRU students because she is not the only one who has been financially devastated by NRU’s inept advice.

If I were to tell you 10 positive success stories of individuals using the Investor Concierge you would do your best to discredit them, ask for proof, insult their knowledge, etc. But in the same breath you love sharing stories of someone who supposedly did not succeed using the same service. Is someone supposed to believe you?

Any educated, logical reader will see that you are just plain negative towards this company regardless of whether they were doing something right or not. NR could be doing everything perfectly and you would still be here trying to trash them. My favorite part is reading your advice afterwards, as if you are so different.

I am currently a student with Nouveau Riche and have been so for some time. If there are any skeptical readers that have read this far, then please listen because the conversation here has been pretty warped.

What does Nouveau Riche teach? It offers classes on tax strategies, legal strategies, apartment complexes, property management, wholesaling, buying & holding, selling properties, creative financing, etc. It is absolutely silly when you read comments from people who are not even students attempt to explain what Nouveau Riche teaches!

Nouveau Riche DOES NOT teach one specific strategy over another! They offer education and solutions for all types of different strategies.

For example, I am on the same page with Proceed, when he/she mentions that they are waiting for the market to turn so that they can speculate on properties in an appreciating market. I do however find it funny that he/she calls themselves "proceed with caution" and then advises us that positive cashflow is negligible and that buying for appreciation is a much smarter move! Tell that to all the uneducated investors out there that bought off speculation near the top of the last up market and then lost their shirts!

The most successful speculators that I have met bought their properties when the market was down and sold when it was up. Common knowledge right? But they didn't wait for the market to start appreciating before they bought. They timed the market the best they could but were happy to buy properties at 50-60cents on the dollar, even if the market dropped a bit more before it appreciated. Then they rode the wave and did their best to time the upside, but sometimes let go of the properties a bit too early. Still they walked with millions. None of them would consider it a safe strategy, but they have all done very well.

I like the idea of buying and holding properties using a bell curve equation for the best liquidity and making sure those properties are cashflow positive, but at the same time I am a fan of riding appreciating markets like PWC is.

If someone wanted to ride the next wave of appreciation, in my opinion NOW is the time to prepare, which means getting credit in line, saving money for down payments, building the right network of partners including hard money lenders, credit partners, potential buyers, etc.

NR teaches strategies that would benefit people who wanted to buy & hold in todays market, or people who wanted to sell in todays market. The education would benefit someone who was facing foreclosure with creative solutions, or someone who wanted to buy foreclosures with creative solutions. It would benefit someone who wanted to invest in commercial real estate or residential real estate.

Bottom line is that it would be silly to attempt to say that NR teaches one specific strategy.

Another point: I have been with NR for almost 2 years now and I have never been "pitched" on using the Investor Concierge. I have never even heard a pitch that someone should use it! The only time that I have heard something close to a "pitch" was at the initial briefing that a guest attends to learn about NR before they join, and there is a light mention of the service at the Intensive seminar they put together.

The company sends out emails from time to time letting people know that there are new properties listed on the website, but other than that, there is very limited promotion of the Investor Concierge. The last time I heard it promoted the speaker suggested that the buyer should always do their own independent research before buying a property and that the Investor Concierge is not a risk free service.

The fact is that there ARE people in this country that are currently purchasing rental properties. It absolutely makes sense that NR should offer a solution for them. There ARE people selling properties in todays market. NR offers education for them. There ARE people planning to ride the next appreciation boom and NR offers education and opportunity for them to raise capital.

You spend your time trying to knock NR, but I challenge you to find a better system out there to help the masses get started in real estate investing. NR is very well rounded and offers quality education. I value education and I can speak from the heart and tell you that NR does a great job! They teach "how to" with no hype using a college-style educational system.

Rather than knock NR, we should be knocking the "gurus" that slam people into educational packages and then fly to another city to do it again, leaving people alone with no help and little chance for success. NR is changing the landscape of REI education in a positive way.

Part of me wishes that Einzige could experience a week at college for himself so that he could see how well rounded NR is and how conservative they are in their REI approaches and how professional they are. I don't know if it would change his mind, but it would definitely give him a better perspective and I am confident that his opinion would change for the better...

YES she does live way beyond her means and I am not denying that. She does practice in NYC hence the taxes... I dont want to continue this conversation because I don't think I am getting my point across. The point is shes 33 and just finished schooling recently only to be in the position she is in. I do not see it being worth it. But to each their own right.

NRU Skeptic is carrying on and on about the quality of the education again and some sort of strategies that only exist at NRU.

None of this has any value at all. Zero, worthless. NRU teaches novice level worthless information that anyone can get at the library for a dollar.

I got started in this business years ago and never paid anyone a dollar to tell me what I needed to know. Real estate takes common sense and 7th grade math skills at best.

NRU talks about tax strategies being taught at the super star school. I don't need that and neither does anybody else. Buy a book and hire a CPA or tax attorney to do your taxes in April. They can consult you on 1031 tax exchanges, depreciation, LLC's and the rest. No need for a "special, quality education" here. Although you would have to read a book and that might not be an option for people like Arthur.

Legal strategies; Ok if you are really going down this road retain a Real Estate attorney. End of story thats it. NO MYSTERY.

Apartment Complexes; $20,000 for a NRU real estate class or read a book from the library. Hmmm. Thats a tough one.

Property management; another expensive class or buy a book? The book I read years ago still applies and cost me $30. In most cities you can't spit out the window without hitting a property management company. They will take apps. run credit, run eviction records, and coordinate with your attorney in the event of an eviction. Or you can use one of THOUSANDS of discount online services. I used Apartment Owners Association for a whopping fee of $125 a year!Oh yeah, common sense helps.

Wholesaling; NRU doesn't even know what this means. They have made up their own concept to make the suckers feel like they are getting something for their money. The reality is the NRU student is paying for pure garbage.

Creative financing; My favorite. NRU calls it "creative financing." The rest of the world just calls it FINANCING. Here they are trying to create something for nothing. Go and talk to 10 bank officers about all the possible financing options available. By the end of the day you will have more information than NRU. Maybe you can teach a class at NRU on financing! There are no secrets to financing. So don't pay $20,000 to learn how to get a mortgage. Wouldn't you feel like an idiot doing that? What NRU doesn't tell you is that the secondary market, wall street or government insured lending programs dictate the financing options throughout the US. Creative financing is just financing. Your typical loan officer with a year of experience knows more than NRU will ever know.

Lease options, credit repair, REO, short sales, blah, blah, blah. These are not strategies worthy of paying some novice, wanna be tycoons wearing cheap suits $20,000. I have been there and done that with real estate and all this information is FREE of charge if you go out and do an hour a day for a couple months. And talk to some professionals.

Don't be an idiot and get suckered by these scumbags. Don't be a fool and get taken by NRU.

Wow! For someone that hasn't attended the classes you sure seem to think you know what they teach. You are doing nothing more than just making up nonsense about how you think they teach at NRU, when really you don't have a clue. I must say that I am slightly entertained by your ignorance.

Your advice is not all bad though. There are many books available at the bookstore and library that can dramatically help you towards becoming a real estate investor. I personally own and have read many of them. So if you are the type of person that can read a book and apply the information to become successful, then make it happen.

However, what about people like myself, who read book after book, and never bought any property. There are many people that need more than just a book to help them become successful. Not everyone should enroll with NR, but it is a good fit for many people.

NR is a community of investors. Some are novices just getting started, and others own millions of dollars in real estate. At the last week of college I was talking with another student who took the tax strategies class and he said he wished he would have learned these strategies earlier because he could have saved over $100k in taxes. He has been investing for several years and has done over 50 real estate deals. He got his start reading books and attending a local investor club, and then attended some "guru" training. He said it wasn't all bad training, but he despised the constant upselling. In his own words he said that NR has the best real estate investment education currently available that he has personally seen!

For someone like yourself, that hasn't attended any of these classes yourself, it is easy to assume there is no value, but for the thousands of investors that have attended the classes, they find great value in the education. If the classes weren't that good, then I would be running into students that were unsatisfied right? Instead, everyone I talk with and see at NR are all excited about the education.

PWC, your point is very clear. You think people should read books on investing and then ride the next wave of appreciation. Great. So there are some readers who will follow your advice. I wish them the best of luck.

My advice is very clear as well. If any readers are looking at NR as another source of education, it is absolutely worth it. The classes are great and you are connected with a network of thousands of investors. They offer the ability to refer new students and earn extra income that you can use as down payments on properties. They offer an exclusive website if you are looking for cashflow positive deals nationwide. But the best part is the networking. You hear people like Proceed say to talk to professionals. Those same professionals are the ones attending NR! As I network in the hallways I meet lawyers, accountants, sophisticated investors, commercial investors, hard money lenders, mortgage brokers, realtors, financial planners, and on and on.

I had to fire my accountant because after attending my very first week of classes at NR, I learned enough about bookkeeping, taxes and legal strategies that I realized my accountant had no clue what they were talking about. My accountant was book-smart but not business-smart. When I shared what I learned with my accountant, and showed her a sample of the video classroom course, she was blown away. The lesson learned was a good one. Just because someone is a "professional" doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Another example is my brother who has a 401k that he contributes to. I talked to him about the option of self-directing it to invest in real estate. He went and spoke with his boss and was told that he couldn't self-direct his account. But I shared with him what I had learned, and he hired a third party company to self-direct it so that now he has control over where he invests those funds, which include investing in real estate!

The fact is that there is knowledge out there and many various ways to get it. I have tried many ways, and I haven't found one yet that can rival NRU. So it works for me. And if it works for me, then I am sure it will work for others out there. I wish people the best in their efforts to find a solution that will work for them as well.

Thank you for raising the discourse to a civilized level again. I appreciate it.

You say: For someone [who] hasn't attended any of these classes yourself, it is easy to assume there is no value, but for the thousands of investors that have attended the classes, they find great value in the education.

...thus we are confronted with an epistemological problem--and, again, the issue I mentioned before. The only way to know the classes are good is to pay for them, apparently.

This problem reminds me of Tolstoy's The Kreutzer Sonata. The main character, in talking about the question of whether or not people are really ever happily married, makes the following analogy:

One day I was walking among the shows in Paris, when, attracted by a sign, I entered an establishment to see a bearded woman and a water-dog. The woman was a man in disguise, and the dog was an ordinary dog, covered with a sealskin, and swimming in a bath. It was not in the least interesting, but the Barnum accompanied me to the exit very courteously, and, in addressing the people who were coming in, made an appeal to my testimony. 'Ask the gentleman if it is not worth seeing! Come in, come in! It only costs a franc!' And in my confusion I did not dare to answer that there was nothing curious to be seen, and it was upon my false shame that the Barnum must have counted.

NRU Skeptic, unfortunately, it's impossible for me to tell if you are a Barnum, a shameful patron, or a legitimately sincere customer. Given the costs involved, as well as all the rest of the stuff I've already gone over, I remain convinced that caution is warranted (no pun intended).

Einzige/PWC, if you guys are tired, I would be happy to take over. I AM a member of NRU, so no one can tell me I don't know what it's about, and it IS a SCAM. Here is a post I made on another blog.

I did attend the "college" and I can tell you that it's a total joke. There isn't anything there that you can't learn from a $30 book you can buy from Amazon.com. The thing is, if you don't have the motivation to buy a good book, network with REAL real estate investors and get out there and make things happen on your own, I can tell you for a fact that NRU will NOT help you do that. Bottom line, you don't need to pay $16k for what they offer, what you're really buying is the network marketing, ponzi scheme aspect of it. Personally, I can't in good conscience sell something to someone that I think is absolutely not worth the money, but apparently many people in NRU don't have that problem. The vast majority of people in NRU are idiots, I'm telling you this as a fact, I met them, I talked to them. Investor's Concierge preys on that ignorance, the deals up there are not as good as they seem, just dig a little deeper (hint: just look at two things: (1) interest only payments on the mortgages and (2) what happens when the incentives run out). Most of the people in the system make money from the marketing, NOT from real estate. Those that have made money in real estate have made it in the last 5 years, when anyone with a pulse could have bought real estate and made money. Finally, the members associate themselves with the likes of Robert Kiyosaki and "the Secret". That alone should raise a lot of red flags, but if I can't convince you of that, then you're already a lost cause.

If you're going to do it anyway, I suggest you purchase the least expensive option so that when you find out for yourself, you're only out some fraction of the $16,000 "Regents" package. Don't be fooled when you talk to people in NRU who say they are successful, I don't doubt that there are many people who make tons of money off the marketing and I don't doubt that there are some people who make money off of real estate investing. But the reality is, the VAST majority do not, that's why most MLM and networking marketing schemes are scams. Why don't you hear more people complaining about it you ask? Well part of it is embarrassment, part of it is apathy; when you realize you're out $16,000 for no reason other then you're own stupidity, well, I think the instinct for most people is just to pretend it never happened and move on. BTW, I just recently found out that the guy who signed me up is back looking for a full-time job. He had quit his job to do this NRU scam full-time, but now that the market has turned and the economy has gone south, I guess it's harder and harder to find marks.

As a preface, I joined NRU by purchasing the “Regent’s” package, I went to the "college", I tried to recruit, I have analyzed the Investor's Concierge deals, I went to the briefings, I have heard the likes of Piccolo, Snyder, Cheri Tree, Kecia and all the other NRU hacks speak, and I’ve met and talked to many NRU "students". So please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Here is my assessment of NRU. I have tried my best to be fair. For those of you familiar with NRU, this outline follows the “EPIC” presentation some of you may have been subject to.

The Company

1. Piccolo and Bob "the General" Snyder, the founders of NRU, have MARKETING backgrounds. Look it up. They have no prior experience with real estate investing before NRU.

2. As a consequence of Number 1, NRU is primarily a MARKETING business. You can call it whatever you want, direct marketing, MLM, a pyramid scheme, a ponzi scheme, there may not be a perfect term, but it contains aspects of all of these concepts.

3. Real estate investing and education is an ancillary part of NRU. It is the "product" that they sell, but it might as well be long-distance phone plans, an internet web-based business, vitamins, or make-up.

4. NRU's success is a direct product of the real estate mania this country has experienced over the past 7 years, not anything inherently great about the company’s products or services.

The “Education”

5. For $16,000, you really don’t get very much. You receive a certain number of “college” credits that expire after two years, but the catch is that you have to fly to Arizona to use them and you can only do that four times a year for a one-week period each time. There is an on-line option, but it is sub-par for a variety of reasons.

6. The courses are amateur hour and taught in seminar-fashion. They may dazzle people who don’t have a college degree, but will offer little to those who are generally versed in basic real estate and financial concepts. The educational materials are photocopied, hand-bound booklets, sometimes just an outline of the power point presentation. The instructors appear to be knowledgeable in their field, but they are mainly interested in consulting fees and fees for other services that they offer to NRU members (not altruism as many NRU shills would like you to believe).

7. NRU does not “teach” you anything you can’t learn by spending a few dollars on Amazon.com. There are no secret tips to learn that haven’t been published in the hundreds of real estate books you can buy on your own.

8. The “education” is primarily a vehicle for the direct marketing aspect of NRU, just as Investor’s Concierge is there to give members credibility when they market the course. The Concierge, however, is also another mechanism by which NRU extracts additional money from its students. More on this later.

Real Estate as an Investment Class

9. In marketing the tuition, a great deal of emphasis is placed on how real estate can make you rich. There is little or no information on how risky investing in real estate can be. At the “briefings” (the 2-hour presentation designed to lure new members), the presenter will talk a lot about how great real estate is because of the availability of leverage and certain tax benefits. At several briefings I went to, the presenter would literally make the representation that real estate prices only go up. Finally, the presenter will talk about how terrible it is to work for a corporation and how useless a college education is (ala Robert Kiyosaki). This usually manifests itself in the form of derisive acronyms, such as JOB, which stands for “Just Over Broke”, or how only NRU can give you an MBA that’s worth anything, a “Massive Bank Account” (crowd usually goes wild here).

10. NRU never mentions the special risks inherent in residential real estate investing, such as problem tenants, financing and interest rate risk, structural and environmental risks associated with housing, the cost of maintenance, the prospect of asset depreciation or declining rents, and the risk of litigation including from eviction and foreclosure. Bottom line, investing in residential real estate is very risky and comes with a host of hazards you would not find in other asset classes. NRU discounts all of this and presents real estate as a perpetual money tree.

11. We will likely never experience again in our lifetimes the type of appreciation in residential real estate that we have seen these past few years. There are several reasons that this is very likely to be the case: reversion to the mean, unsustainable public/private debt burdens, massive transfer of wealth to developing nations, slowing economic growth, an aging population, greater regulation in the financial sector, etc.

12. Historically, residential real estate prices have appreciated at the rate of inflation.

13. Real estate, like any other asset class, carries risks that are commensurate with the returns you are likely to generate. For example, leverage is great in good times, but people are quickly learning how easy it is for your equity to get wiped out a result of relatively small declines in home prices.

14. Investor Concierge deals are generally market-rate deals, but they are advertised to NRU students as amazing deals that generate positive cash flow. There are other sites that break this down, but generally speaking, the appraisals are usually 2-3 pages long and contain nothing more than a broker's opinion of value, the financing is almost always interest only or neg-am, the rents are inflated, and the only way you get "positive cash flow" is if you include certain seller incentives like pre-paid HOA or guaranteed rent, most of which will expire within 2 years. Additionally, maintenance and vacancy will almost immediately eat away at the $100 of positive cash-flow a month you get. NRU members hate talking about the details of the Investor Concierge deals.

15. Typically, there are only 15-20 available properties on the Concierge at any given time, so the pickins are slim. NRU encourages you to “reserve” a property you like as soon as you see it online, because it could get snatched up by someone else unless you do. The non-refundable fee for reserving a property is $350.

16. Investor Concierge deals are mainly located in historically depressed or undeveloped, sub-urban or rural real estate markets, you will generally not find properties on the system in established, urban markets. These properties are likely to experience declines in this market and will not likely appreciate much at all when the economy recovers.

17. Anyone who has purchased a deal off of Investor’s Concierge over the last two years has either lost all of their equity or is underwater. This is a terrifying prospect for many people in NRU because at the briefings, many of them go up to the front and brag about how they have bought 5, 10, 15 or even 20 properties over the past few months. Many of these people are going to have to walk away from their homes in the coming years, which will destroy their credit and eat up any ponzi money they made from the marketing.

The Marketing

18. The real estate investing component of NRU is used mainly to support the primary business of the company which is selling tuition packages. There are three options which cost different amounts, but most people are pressured to purchase the “Regent’s” packing together with the “Encyclopedia”, which total almost $20,000. There are certain commission and tuition-related perks you get for buying the most expensive package.

19. The commission system is what really drives NRU. NRU members can get a 50% commission for each package they sell, so sometimes that amounts to nearly $10,000 a pop, and there is an added wrinkle that causes that number to multiply very quickly if people you sign up also, in turn, sign up additional students. The mathematics make the commission structure extremely lucrative IF YOU ARE GOOD AT SALES. This is hook that gets most people to fork over the money.

20. Most people are unsuccessful at selling tuition packages. It’s akin to trying to sell a used car, except you would probably get more value from a junker than the “education” that NRU offers. It’s obvious why the “education” NRU offers is not worth $20,000, most of that needs to go subsidize the commission system, which is needed to lubricate the entire NRU machinery.

21. The commission system places a lot of pressure on NRU members to sell, sell, sell. This is how all the top “producers” have made most of their money. This also creates a massive conflict of interest. More on this later.

22. The direct marketing aspect of NRU preys on the greed and naiveté of all sorts of people, but mainly lower-middle class individuals, young people just starting out, and real estate agents/brokers, many of whom don’t have a lot of education and work crappy jobs that they aren’t happy with.

23. NRU is tied in with the likes of Robert Kiyosaki and “The Secret”. I’m not going to bore you with the analysis, but try Google and you will find plenty of critiques.

Conflicts of Interest

24. NRU generates tremendous income directly from its students. They make money not only from the tuition, but also from marketing materials and services, credit services, mortgage brokerage services, accounting and legal services, special seminars, Investor Concierge transactions, all of which cost extra, and they’re not cheap. You also have to pay for lodging and the plane ticket to get to the college. All of the NRU instructors also offer consulting deals and other professional services, which also cost extra. The $16,000 for the Regent’s tuition only buys you “college” credits, you get NOTHING ELSE. You even have to buy the forms and brochures you need to sign up people for NRU. I take that back, you do get a tote bag, but it looks ridiculous.

25. NRU members are supposed to be “mentors” to the new members who they sign up, but what they really want from you is for you to sell the tuition to others, because they will get a cut of the first few sales you make. There is a huge conflict of interest here because there is a big incentive for NRU members to sell the tuition, irrespective of the quality of the product or the unique situation of people to whom they are marketing.

26. NRU encourages you to sell to friends and family, which destroys relationships when people are dissatisfied or feel cheated, which is often the case.

27. The most distasteful defense of NRU to me is that “it’s not for everyone, but it worked for me”. It may be that there are some people who are successful and make lots of money in NRU, but the system cannot support a situation where most of the people in NRU make tons of money. This is the inherent, mathematical limitations of these types of marketing structures. I’m sure someone smarter than me can prove this. Likewise, the real estate market cannot support most people in NRU making money in residential real estate investing. Case in point is the short sale strategy, which NRU shills tout as the way to make money in a down market. Well, there is so much competition in short sales right now, and even more with each “college” I suppose, that short sale investors are bidding up pre-foreclosures pretty much to market. These fundamental concepts virtually guaranty that only a small minority of 28. NRU members will make any money either from the marketing or the real estate investing, and REQUIRE everyone else to fail in order for the system to sustain itself. This is the biggest conflict of interest of them all and lends to NRU’s reputation as a “scam”.

Conclusion

NRU is a marketing business that encourages and monetarily incentivizes its members to use high-pressure sales tactics to sell a highly expensive real estate “education” package with questionable value to unsophisticated people with the lure of quick money and unlimited riches in real estate. Success in NRU is highly dependent on (1) a booming real estate market and/or (2) a unique talent in sales and marketing. What makes NRU so insidious is that it plays on the fear and greed of ordinary people, often friends and family, most of whom will go bankrupt by following NRU investment strategies during a severe and sustained real estate down turn such as the one we are experiencing now, and most of whom will fail in selling the tuition package because they lack the sales and marketing expertise, which is further exacerbated by a declining real estate market. Taken as whole, NRU may be perfectly legal, but many people will feel like they were cheated out of thousands of dollars by someone they trusted. If after reading this, you are still interested then by all means sign up. But just be prepared to live with it if at some point you find yourself either financially bankrupt, morally bankrupt, or even worse, both.

Epilogue

Finally, you’re not going to see a whole lot of posts like this from people who have joined NRU. Most are very disillusioned at the loss of thousands of dollars and don’t even want to give it another thought. The rest are out searching for marks. I can only hope that NRU won’t survive this bear market in housing, and if this post can hasten its demise, so much the better. I don’t blame the person who signed me up, he incidentally has had to find a full-time job now since NRU is apparently not doing it for him. I walked into this with my eyes wide open, which shows you how greed can overcome any good judgment you may think you have. But I am thankful that I didn’t end up dragging anyone else into this apart from a good friend as my partner in this scheme, but with whom, as a result of NRU, am no longer on speaking terms. So for all of you NRU shills out there who still think you are doing God’s work, why don’t you try calling each and every person you have signed up and ask them exactly what they think about NRU. I think you will find that my experience is not so unique. If you can keep on selling after that, well then, good luck to you.

Thanks Einzige. I just wish I had taken the time to look for sites like yours before I made the plunge. I've been busy putting this post up on as many NRU blogs as I could find, hopefully it will save some folks from making the same mistake as I did. But I agree, there certainly will be people who will sign up no matter what anyone says.

Arthur attempts to support or promote NRU in his posts. He is unaware that he is actually doing our job for us. Arthur is debasing NRU every time his greasy little rat claws touch the keyboard.

Arthur's obvious lack of education and intelligence tells the story of the typical NRU salesman far better than I could describe on my most literary day.

I have met some NRU salesman who are convincing and sharp. Their purpose is to corrupt and prostitute the concepts of financial planning, entrepreneurship and investing in such a way that you give them your money.

However, I do not believe that Arthur has the requisite intelligence to sell anything to anybody. Only a fool would believe an Arthur. I send all of Arthur's posts to people who are considering NRU. After they read Arthur's nonsense they are convinced that no legitimate organization would have and Arthur for a representative.

Keep on writing Arthur; you are doing the greatest disservice to NRU and we love it!

The sad thing is that my sister refuses to believe NR is a scam or even worse, a cult that worships money but never gets their followers to the promised land without ethical or moral compromises. She is still heavily invested and caught up in NR.

Here's the value that you too can get from joining NR:

The "Community": When my husband explained in a very business like manner to my sister why NR is a MARKETING school and not a real estate school, she responded that it's really the "community" that she values at NR. Below is an example of the incredible performance the NR "community" is turning out.

My sister A met Rck at NR and they became business partners. She did this without consulting her husband K. She really wished her husband K would have taken more interest in NR after she heard the 'dream speech' and felt K was holding them down and not living up to his potential and missing out on those amazing "opportunities". Now my sister and K are separated - which she is still hiding from the rest of our family and her friends and she has racked up over 65K in debt on these "opportunities". She refuses to acknowledge that she is more than a business partner with Rck even though her husband K saw them twice together at a motel and she did reveal to me that she was attracted to him. She may even still be wearing her wedding rings. I called A on her charade asking her to level with me so I could help her deal with the shame and guilt so she can present herself more authentically and not have to hide her real self. She saw that as judgmental and meddling and said she wouldn't be conversing for a while. We talked with her broken hearted husband K, and he doesn't recognize the person he married since she's gotten involved with NR. He also said that A told him one of the leaders of NR (married with kids) came on to her.

What kind of community do you want to be a part of? NR can offer you cheaters, liars and actors for sure. People that spin your sound reflections and advice around on you as judgmental and meddling - perhaps "stomping on their dreams".

What kind of dreams do the people at NR have? Get rich quick and easy? Fake it 'till you make it? Remember, you can rent a really expensive car to appear prosperous. This actually plays out as: "Fake it 'till you're Fake". You too can join the cast at NR and play with your loved ones hearts and minds until the charade falls down around you and the only ones you have left are your faithful money grubbers from NR that will tell you not to let the world "stomp on your dreams".

NR preys on people who are already in debt (my sister was when she got involved) and leads them to believe that they have a supportive "community" that will help them creatively find solutions to their financial situation. She bought it all, hook, line and sinker. She was never taught by either of her parents how to make much money or manage it well. She never saw her dad hold a stable job. Our mom has always struggled financially. She didn't know any better and what NR is promising her sounds a lot more attractive than what her real family is advising her to do. She's in way too deep with their "community" now and I fear she will continue to believe their lines to avoid the pain, shame, and guilt that she would have to overcome in order to get help to truly get out of her mess. She has most recently talked to her husband K about filing for bankruptcy.

NR is definitely a "community" - of the duped, the greedy, and suave actors that keep turning out tragedy after tragedy.

Wow, what a sad story, I really wish people would post more of this stuff to expose NRU for what it is. I completely agree with you about the cult-like nature of this organization and its complete devotion to making money at any cost. This is tied in with "The Secret", which really makes me want to puke. Anyway, I hope things work out for your sister. From my experience, there are some people who figure this out right away, while others take a lot longer, sometimes months or years.

Either way, I am very certain that in the next year or two, there will be hundreds if not thousands of people in NRU who will have to declare bankruptcy to get out of just the Investor's Concierge deals not to mention whatever other stupid deals they have done apart from that. Nearly all the homes bought using the system in 2006, 2007 and possibly earlier are underwater now. On top of that, the incentives run out after about 2 years, so they will be in negative cash flow territory as well. With rising gas and food prices, it will only be a matter of time before people have to bail en mass. Furthermore, there's no one to help them out either, as the general consensus is that investors and speculators should not participate in any bail-out.

My husband and I highly value the discussion here. Every one of the postings here has helped us better understand the people and nature of the organization my sister A is involved with. We hope she'll give us a chance one day to help her deal with the impact of her experience with NR or at least be able to discuss it openly and honestly with her. We really appreciate everything we learn here.

SisterGotScammed, thanks very much for your feedback and I wish you all the best regarding your situation.

Meanwhile, I note with mixed emotions that our friend Arthur Tubman has recently removed all of his comments. Undoubtedly we can surmise from this that one or more of his potential marks did their due diligence and came upon this thread, only to make the right choice (meaning: run away screaming).

You guys are freaking losers with no lives. Get a life. Or come down to south florida and I will employ you as personal assistants and pay you an hourly wage somewhere around $30-$50K a year, so you can tip toe thru life and arrive at your graves safely.

As I've said multiple times, now, who we are is irrelevant (though I think you can get a good sense for who I am by reading what I've posted on Die Eigenheit over the past few years).

What matters, in the current context, is what we say. I submit that you're going to have a hard time in life until you can get that through your head.

It might surprise you, Arthur, to hear me say that who you are is also irrelevant - with one very important exception: You're trying to sucker people. If that doesn't describe a "pathetic retard loser with no life" then I don't know what does.

Die Eigenheit - Pathetic no life loser who spends majority of his/her life bashing a company he/she has never been a part of or knows anything about. That is sad. You know nothing about me so I suggest you stop talking, or meet me and you could tell me how you feel. And that is not a threat that is me calling your faggot ass out on the carpet.

Arthur's response is excellent. This is just what we want here on this blog. Uncontrolled, ignorant, threatening rants by the NRU. Never in my 40 years of business have I come across anyone as primitive and uneducated as Arthur.

When the NRU scam is revealed and the NRU salesman is cornered with facts they erupt with threats and insults.

I stand by my previous post that the more Arthur writes that better. He unwittingly does our job for us. I copy and save all of Artur's rants and email them to potential NRU victims.

The readers are astounded at the obvious lack of professionalism and blatant ignorace.

I just went to a NR rally last night and was simply amazed. I am now going to make an $20K per month if I really apply myself. You don't have to give up the $16K, just get the business education for $1.7K or just market it for a $75 fee. Remember, think and grow rich, Daddio! People were smiling with the whitest teeth I've ever seen and they were just so happy, yesiree! Trees were a blooming, birds were a chirpin' and all was well. Honestly though I'm still researching this and have alot of questions that need answering.

The above post is a fake NRU post from Wallace Hobbs. He pretends to be a new NRU recruit and praises the NRU experience. He is not a new student but a seasoned NRU criminal whose intention is to lie to you and steal your money. You can see from his writing that he is not mentally stable.

Whoever has a blog up that recently posted mentioned u can buy the mags anywhere... Actually you can buy them at barnes and nobles and borders book stores in the month they are released. Success From Home was just released and it is on shelves. Our top leaders are on the front page cover.

Attention anyone reading. You can go to this magazine's website and download a media kit with all advertising prices included. Although the front page doesn't show up on the media kit it is a special placement advertisement. This is probably a $25,000 advertisement. This is simply another advertisement that the NRU salesman is distorting to try and trick potential victims. Keep in mind that anyone can purchase an advertisement in a magazine. This does not make the organization legitimate.

I first heard of this outfit after responding to a job post on Craig's List for a real estate investor seekinghelp. I thought, by the text, thata developer/investor neededa local agent or site salesperson/leasing agent. I'm areal estate agent and a formercommercial mortgage manager soI thought the ad was for a job fora person of my skill sets.

I got an e-mail asking me to view some Web video. Right then, Ifelt something was not right. Whywould I have to watch some Web video for a job unless it was a partof some interactive training module that some companies now do for their new hires.

I opened it up and in seconds, Ismelled a scam. The "Nouveau RicheUniversity" logo popped up and thenarrator had some story about anunrewarding job with a firm aboutto go through reorganization or something and how he had to be in bizfor himself (sounded like an Amway meets porno narration).

I closed the window. I e-mailed the guy and asked what the specific tasks and requisites were. No reply.

Then I researched and learned that this company is a double barreledshotgun: They buy properties in distressed areas, likely through variousLLCs or agents; then use the "university" element to recruit people, whom they will "help" find investorproperties; just happen to be thecompany's own inventory. This issimilar to the movie BOILER ROOM inwhich JT Marlin's brokers sell stocksbelonging to firm's owner and his friends. When they clean up, no need to keep inflated stock price; stock crashes.

From what I have read, NR, through affiliated mortgage companies, give a rent subsidy to renter out of investor's down payment or have it rolled into loan.

After the subsidy is gone, what happens? After all, once the newmortgage is in effect, that concludesboth NR's interest in and liability forthat property.

I have read that they also haveposted signs on cars saying "Want toMake $10k a month? Ask me how."

Well, having a commercialreal estate background, I did somecash flow analysis on a shopping center that has as two of its tenantsStarbucks and Keva Juice; asking price is $2,666,000.

None of my calculations added up to$10k per month. Here they are, using3 tiers: A full price offer with 20% down; a 90% offer with 20% down and an 85% offer with 20% down.I used a fairly low interest rate, the10 year Treasury plus 2 percent andthe standard 20 year amortization period of a commercial loan.

The highest monthly cash flow isjust over $3,000. This is on a shopping center with two name brandtenants and where the landlord canpass through quite a few coststo the renters in the form of thenet lease, in which a tenant paysa portion of taxes, insurance,management and utilities in addition tothe base rent.

Plus, commercial leases tend to belonger term; 3-5 years generally.

With that said, how can one make$10k a month in residential investments? The rents are considerably lower and thelandlord is responsible for upkeep,water/heating/cooling, taxesand insurance. The tenant paysonly a flat rental amount. Anyeviction action must conform to stateowner-resident acts,which often includes legal costs.

I did a general calculation of aresidential rental property of$125,000; 100 percent financing;5.75% rate; 30 year amortization. The totalannual payments would be, juston the mortgage, $8,052. Just usingthe numbers from my own city,property taxes are generally (variesby subdivision and area) $2,000 per year;$167 per month. Insurance;$100 per month(lowest) and the utility bills and water bills come out to $200 per month.

So, to cover a $671 mortgage per month, owner would have to rent out at $871 at least, which is $10,452 total income. Then subtract water/utilities of $2,400 per year; taxes of $2,000per year and insurance of $1200 per year: This adds up to $4,852 cash flow for the YEAR; $404 per month. The only way to pass taxes, insurance and repairs on is by an installment sale, which requires the seller to transfer fee simple title when debt is repaid.

Unless one owns multiple rentalsfree and clear or very little debtor owns a large retail/shopping centeranchored by a Raley's orTarget or a regional mall like Dallas'Northpark Mall, it is possiblebut highly unlikely to clear $10k ofcash flow per month doing real estateinvesting.

Plus, having a convict for a founder (CEO, founder Jim Piccolo was convicted of felony insurance fraud in 1991-92; later reduced to a misdemeanor; was reportedly involvedin another MLM scheme, TruDynamics)and a co-founder who came fromAmway (Bob Snyder) and one can smell a scam like a fart in a car.

hello everyone, just 4 the record, I found a craigslist ad for employment promising income of 10,750.00 per month for one sale. I attended the meeting tonight, I never was told HOW I could make exactly that amount , but was introduced to fernando serrano jr. and he proceeded to share with me how much money he has made as an investor, one problem .. he had teeth of a crack pipe user in a cheap suit, do you remember the 1st rule of a salesman ? 1st impression .. you will get only 1 chance !! question : if you made over 30,ooo.oo in the last few months .. would you visit a dentist ? very bad ... salesperson and very bad presentation and very bad 15.00 salad ... geez

I actually met and dated one of the NRU reps. last October and let me tell you, what a dud! (Him and NRU). On our first date, I was intrigued about the "University" and the business, so naturally, I started firing away with questions. How surprised I was to get such vague and non-descript answers and I am by no means a real estate expert to include loans, returns, interest rates, etc... But I did know enough that his answers were not adding up. For ex., I asked him where the university gets their data from which they draw their claims/conclusions and support these success stories and track their progress. His answer was simply yes, they have imperical data. Again, where does it come from? How did you gather it? How do you analyze it? How do you interpret it? And so on. Another lame answer-- pie charts! : o After a few more questions and similar generic answers, I decided to change topics because. It was becoming painful for me to have a unintelligent conversation with someone "successful" and keep wasting both of our times. And lastly, on a very personal note and maybe even a bit tacky, the "gentleman" broke up with me 2 days before New Year's when I had already made non refundable dinner reservations at an upscale restaurant which he was very well aware of by sending me a lame 2 sentence e-mail that a 5 yr old would have composed! It was along the lines of, "Life is too crazy right now. I hope you understand." No I didn't, but Wow... LOL

I actually met and dated one of the NRU reps. last October and let me tell you, what a dud! On our first date, I was intrigued about the "University" and the business, so naturally, I started firing away with questions. How surprised I was to get such vague and non-descript answers and I am by no means a real estate expert to include loans, returns, interest rates, etc... But I did know enough that his answers were not adding up. For ex., I asked him where the university gets their data from which they draw their claims/conclusions and support these success stories and track their progress. His answer was simply yes, they have imperical data. Again, where does it come from? How did you gather it? How do you analyze it? How do you interpret it? And so on. Another lame answer-- pie charts! : o At this point, I changed topics because it was becoming painful for me to have a unintelligent conversation with someone "successful" and keep wasting both of our times. And lastly, on a very personal note and maybe even a bit tacky, the "gentleman" broke up with me 2 days before New Year's when I had already made non refundable dinner reservations at an upscale restaurant which he was very well aware of by sending me a lame 2 sentence e-mail that a 5 yr old would have composed! Wow...

My husband and I are real estate investors in Wisconsin and I was looking for a "mentor" of sorts to increase my business model and came across NRU.

I went to the hotel meeting and was more so intrigued by the marketing aspect of NRU as I could tell right away it was an MLM based system and I was astonished that people were buying into it.

I told the ISA I was interested in the marketing but did not want to buy into the program. The ISA seemed slightly disappointed (as I'm sure the ISA would have gotten a commission if I signed on right away).

All in all, I have a phone call into the ISA today as the ISA wants me to attend the Regional Training this weekend (which I cannot), but the more I read, the more I am uncomfortable with dupping people out of their money when they may not have the ACTUAL investor background or know how to sustain their real estate portfolios or even start one.

Thanks again for this blog. I REAL budding investor could have easily been dupped. I think I'm going to just focus on my real estate license, getting into a brokerage, and networking with the like-minded individuals who are creating their wealth w/o paying for NR.

Dean's post is full of misinformation and an obvious bias that he makes no attempt to hide.

It truly sounds as though he gathered as much free-floating information as he could so that he might make it sound as though he has first-hand experience. The attempt is to give the nonsense that follows some sort of credence.

I will begin a full response to his post, responding to each one of the numbers individually...however, blogger.com will now only allow 4,096 characters per post.

I will post as much as I can here, but for the full response you may visit http://tinyurl.com/q4sq7p

(if you wish to view a preview of the link and the full URL it can be seen on tinyurl.com at http://preview.tinyurl.com/q4sq7p)

------------------------------------------The Company

1. Piccolo and Bob 'the General' Snyder, the founders of NRU, have MARKETING backgrounds. Look it up. They have no prior experience with real estate investing before NRU.

--Even if this IS true, a) I don’t know how anyone could possibly “look up” what sort of personal experience any individual has with something as broad as real estate investing…Can you tell me where one might find this information? Perhaps it would be more readily available for a more well-known businessman. Exactly what experience does Bill Gates have with RE investing? How about Rupert Murdoch? Where is this information published?

b) Is it possible that that is a reason neither one of them teaches a single class? Neither individual is listed anywhere as an instructor of any specific course in the course catalogue.

---------------------------------2. As a consequence of Number 1, NRU is primarily a MARKETING business. You can call it whatever you want, direct marketing, MLM, a pyramid scheme, a ponzi scheme, there may not be a perfect term, but it contains aspects of all of these concepts.

--Great comment. Spoken like a true lawyer. With that last sentence fragment you get to say almost anything you want before it, and by the end of the statement alleviate yourself from all claims of libel or falsities. You could say the very same thing about almost any business. Depending on how far you’re willing to stretch your claims, you could even say nonprofit organizations "contain aspects" of direct marketing, MLM, a pyramid scheme and a Ponzi scheme...The truth is, Nouveau Riche, like MOST other business is not any of those, other than maybe direct-to-consumer marketing.

First of all, there is nothing wrong, immoral or illegal about multi-level marketing businesses. That acronym "MLM" is thrown around as if it were a terrible thing. Multi-level marketing is a perfectly legitimate business model. But even still, Nouveau Riche is not a multi-level marketing business. Multi-level marketing businesses DO function by enrolling unsalaried salespeople (also

Out of most of these comments most of them are so negative and most of you are judging it and you have never been to the college. I personally just got back from the July 13th college and it was even better than they described. Not only does it teach about real estate investing but the tax strategies and IRA planning classes alone are worth your tuition money. Literally by using the tax strategies class instantly almost anyone with a small business can get their tuition back. Also I hear alot about the marketing side and people calling it MLM and it really is not. No one take a part of your commission ever! It is the exact same as if you went into insurance sale or were a regular college recruiter. Maybe you all have not gathered that it only cost 75 buck to do the marketing and what you are really paying for is the education which is phenomenal. Personally I know NR does everyone a favor letting them market such a great opportunity because they do not do any marketing themselves, it is all up to the students to keep this business flowing. If any of you that rag on the college so much went to one class and see how genuine the teachers are to help you. Finally the people that are claiming that the market is so bad you all plain just do not know about investing at all and are just speculators

The Nouveau Riche University is absolutely brilliant,and its topics range from introductory real estate investing to advanced techniques such as creative real estate investing techniques including wholesaling, multi-units, and short sales,and the because of temporary subsidies, putting the buyer at risk of negative cash flow after the subsidies expire,so a good organization this is._______________________________Dissertation