But is Islam ANYTHING is "good" if it serves the promotion of Islam, right? The end always justifies the means in Islamic ethics.

So you only help the poor for a reward?

Again, the trader mentality... if there is something in it FOR ME then I do it. Nothing seems to have a worth of its own.

Now, what did Mohammed say regarding the beating of wives? Keeping slaves or sex slaves? How should non-Muslims be treated?

How did he deal with critics?

For someone that's been on this forum for years discussing islam you ask somepretty unimpressive questions.

Avicenna is a good example of a muslim scholar. Heard of him? Founder of the scientific method, the father of modern medicine, the mans who's medical encyclopedias were standard issue acrossmost European universities for 700 years until the 18th century...?? NO??

So Ali Sina (= Avicenna) is your example for a scholar. Good. The reason I am asking is because we have al sorts of people being called Islamic scholars, not least one Osama Bin Laden...

Now, about Avicenna, he, like many Christian theologians, tried to use philosophy as a building block for a more rational Islamic theology. The thing is, for that alone he would, by today's standard to be considered to be murtad. Philosophy is a "forbidden" discipline in Islam.

So it is kind of funny you have chosen a man who would by today's standards be roundly condemned as a heretic as your example as a Muslim scholar.

An atheist can be kind, there are verses in the Qur'an where God promises great rewards for atheists and pagans for kind to muslims

Well, so why don't you quote them for us?

What trader mentality?

In Islam everything is about getting a reward of some kind. You pray not for its own sake, but because you collect "brownie points" everything you do, is written down you say, in a big account book by two angels. So all an everything is done for reward. A Muslim thinks he can buy salvation. So someone helps an animal, you story is telling us, but not because he feel pity and simply does it because it is the right thing to do, it is because in doing so he can secure another positive entry in is account book.

"He is the most perfect Muslim whose disposition is best; and the best of you are theywho behave best to their wives."

"The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is avirtuous woman."

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is most high.

Qur'an 4:34

Mohammed beat Aisha

....I (Aisha) said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain,....

Sahih Muslim 4:212

And following Mohammed's example, Abu Baks beat her too:

Narrated Aisha:Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, "You have detained the people because of your necklace." But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah's Apostle although that hit was very painful.

If they do, then Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain from [evil], they have the right to their food and clothing in accordance with the custom. Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves.

alemcodon wrote:We very rarely get to hear some normal nice decent quotes from Muhammad in the modern world (especially if you;re not a muslim)so hear goes....

The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr.

Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith.

To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil.

Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poorand bring them near you...Allah will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection

Muhammad was asked, "O Allah's Messenger! Is there a reward for us in serving the animals?"He replied: "There is a reward for serving any living being."

If one examines the mindset, total blind devotion which Muhammad garnered during his reign from his followers,( or any other cult leader), it it easy to discover that, many of those wise comments do not match their acts, therefore, could not been said by them.Kim Jong Un in N. Korea is one of these cult leaders.

In addition to what said above, I am really getting annoyed by decent Muslims who come here and take non-Muslims for fools.

The first thing they do, push one or two Muslim scholars like avicenna, in an attempt to convince how advanced the religion of Islam is. Anyone who read avicenna's bio, it clearly shows that most - if not all of his knowledge on philosophy and some in medicin, were copied from Eclid, and other the Greek (who else?) philosophers.

It is a well documented fact that, Almost all their "advanced work", Muslim scholars simply derived & translated from the Greeks, with few information of their own added here and there.

Like in their religious tenets, Muslim copy, translate and adapt from other sources, then brag these works as their own. Claim lot more credit then they really deserve.

alemcodon wrote:We very rarely get to hear some normal nice decent quotes from Muhammad in the modern world (especially if you;re not a muslim)so hear goes....

The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr.

This is actually a weak ahadith and termed as maudu (fabricated).

WikiIslam wrote:

Spoiler! :

Mentioned by al-Manjaniqi is his collection of ahadith of older narrators reporting from younger ones, on the authority of al-Hasan al-Basri. Al-Khatib al-Baghdadi said that it is maudu as a narration from the Prophet (s.a.w), but that is a statement of al-Hasan al-Basri.[4]Kashf al-Khafa, no. 2276

Related by Khateeb in The History of Baghdad 2/193. He also said it was a fabricated hadith.

The above-mentioned fabricated hadith gives preference to the method of da'wah over jihad for spreading Islam. However, the best method for spreading Islam is jihad and not da'wah. Thus the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) spent thirteen years in Makkah giving da'wah and only approximately one hundred people embraced Islam. But when he (s.a.w) entered Makkah with military might and Shawka (power) two thousand took their Shahadah in one day.

The Mujahideen conquer lands and save the entire populace from entering Hell-fire by delivering Islam to them. This accomplishment is much greater than what books can do.

Also this fabricated hadith contradicts the Holy Qur'an:

Surah An Nisa verse 95:"Not equal are those of the believers who sit at home(except those who are disabled by injury or are blind or lame), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit at home."[17][b]Shaikh Abdullah Faisal

Wiki islam has quoted muslims who term this hadith as fabricated as per the so called science of ahadith. Anyway, even if its true , it does not make much of sense.There is so much of contradictory evidence to this.. Infact Sahih bukhari considered as the second authentic hadith state that martyrdom is better than ANYTHING in the world.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."

Forget about ink of a scholar, martyrdom is not comparable to anything in this world.

alemcodon wrote:Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith.

This statement is not factually correct. Its not necessary that who is not kind has no faith. Not even Muhammad was kind every time as he meted out punishments. So does this mean Muhammad had no faith? Ofcourse not! Therefore this statement is partially wrong.

alemcodon wrote:To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil.

Islamic history contains examples that are diametrically opposite to this saying..Self defense is about resisting evil by evil. So if this statement is true, you muslims should not be engaging in self defense when someone attacks you. You muslims often tell us that muhammad fought defensive wars. This would mean Muhammad himself violated his own teachings because he fought evil with evil. Muhammad also fought offensive wars. Fighting people so that they accept islam is not a defensive war. Its an offensive war. So we have a case of fighting good with evil. Again, we see very little resemblance of the above statement to what islamic history says.

alemcodon wrote:Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poorand bring them near you...Allah will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection

Well that rule applies only to a poor muslim . Can you show me an example where muhammad helped a poor non muslim without any motive? I know of some quotes where he helped non muslims because they were potential converts. They do not count.

alemcodon wrote:Muhammad was asked, "O Allah's Messenger! Is there a reward for us in serving the animals?"He replied: "There is a reward for serving any living being." [/b]

Following hadith indicates exactly the opposite. According to the following hadith my reward will be decreased if I adopt a stray dog out of kindness i.e. not for guarding cattle or farm. This is directly in contradiction with what you wrote..

Bukhari Vol. 3, #515

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever keeps a dog, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily, unless the dog is used for guarding a farm or cattle." Abu Huraira (in another narration) said from the Prophet, "unless it is used for guarding sheep or farms, or for hunting.

Would I get a reward if I serve say a black dog? I ask this because your prophet also ordered killing of black dogs. Now here is the deal-- quran says those who disobey muhammad will enter hell. If I serve a black dog instead of killing it, I will punished in hell instead of being rewarded because I disobeyed muhammad. This means its not necessary that I get reward for serving a living being. Hence the above statement is incorrect! It does not take a genius to figure out that your prophet was a con man making stories all way or else we would not find him contradicting himself on so many occasions.

Also,It seems that you are repeating the same gibberish that is probably told to you in mosques . I saw that on the other thread where you replied to me. Its quite clear that you have not read your own history. Your scripture does not support what you say. I will reply to you on that thread too.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

The above ahadith come from Sahih Bukhari collection which is the second authentic source considered by muslims. The quote that alemcodon brought is from Suyuti who is not considered as reliable as Bukhari. Also, the quran elevates people who go to battlefields rather than people who sit at home. If the quote that alemcodon brought here is correct, he needs to trash the quran + sahih bukhari ahadith.

2) I have provided contradictory quotes to what alemcodon has brought plus I have shown flaws with some quotes. Now someone may argue that those quotes contain some value and hence muhammad deserves respect. Following argument refutes them..

Here are some quotes from Adolf Hitler

Hitler wrote:1)“If you win, you need not have to explain...If you lose, you should not be there to explain!”

2)“Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.”

3)“if you want to shine like sun first you have to burn like it.”

4)“Anyone can deal with victory. Only the mighty can bear defeat.”

5)“The art of reading consists in remembering the essentials and forgetting non essentials.”

6)“If freedom is short of weapons, we must compensate with willpower.”

The above quotes from Hitler are better than the quotes that Muhammad is said to have uttered. So do we start respecting Hitler? These quotes came from the same man who mass murdered the jews. Just because he said a few good things here and there, it does not mean we start respecting such a man. Now compare this to what Muhammad's islam has done. Millions of people have died because of islam since its inception. Islam has done more damage to mankind than what Hitler did and plus islam's reign is not over yet. Now if we do not respect Hitler for saying these good words why should we respect Muhammad ? More ever the number of nasty quotes uttered by muhammad outweigh his good words.

The truth is that no person on earth is always evil or always good. Even the most cruelest persons on earth have said a few good things here and there. To form a judgment on someone because of handful of good words is irrational. We do not evaluate a person based on his selective words but based on his actions and other words that he uttered.

Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

I would like to see the source of these statements. Muslims don't get tired of glorifying Muhammad quoting his good statements and telling positive stories about him. Never talk about his bad statements and evil acts. They live their whole life cheating themselves.