Corn_Fed:What's stopping the city from just slightly changing the options to include "Not Guilty," and resuming the cameras?

The option was always there. The problem was the initial notification failed to mention the option of a court hearing instead of just paying up:

In its Final Judgment, the trial court concluded the Ordinance violates procedural due process because no summons or court date is provided with the Notice of Violation. Rather, a court date is provided only with the Final Notice, and is not sent to the vehicle owner until after the due date for paying the fine has passed

Think of it like a speeding-ticket-Miranda. All they need to do is be more meticulous about informing the accused of their rights.

ATS is seizing on the win on a lesser point, that it's OK to adopt an ordinance. The bigger point is the ordinance they adopted conflicts with state law in two ways. One has been fixed, the other hasn't.

The decision says in a footnote that the judges think the ordinance conflicts with state law, but they can't consider that argument because the lawyer didn't make it.

Taxcheat:"It is with these principles in mind that we find the Ordinance void for failure to comply with the Supreme Court rules and affirm the trial court's judgment in that respect."

Yeah, but that didn't speak to the constitutionality of the cameras, just the notification process for the accused. They struck down an ordinance, for failing to fulfill proper notice requirements, because the ordinance had been written by cretins.

Even in traffic cases we should avoid anything resembling Stalinist kangaroo courts. It violates due process and sets a very very bad precedent.

Then again maybe this kind of thing will get more people to Question Authority, the first step in anarchy.

You gotta fight for ALL your rights. Learn your rights and insist on them. When "They" try to take them from you you must speak up, and fight back when that's necessary. It's not only your prerogative as an individual, it's your duty as a member of the American people.

If you don't have any need for no stinking rights you should move to North Korea. In the past few years they've lost a whole lot of people because of starvation, so they could use you. If for nothing else, your soft fat hams might be mighty tasty.

gwowen:Yeah, but that didn't speak to the constitutionality of the cameras

Neither did the court. Re-read what I wrote above. The judges upheld the right to adopt the ordinance, not the content of the ordinance itself which they strongly hinted (in dicta) was in conflict with state law.

In some countries the penalty for running a red light is mandatory suspended license. And likely forced to retake the driving tests. Because you shouldn't be allowed to be in the driver's seat of tons of steel if you can't handle the most basic idea in traffic, red = stop.

All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.

Not like it's going to matter in the long run, anyone who's ever tried pleading not guilty to a traffic ticket probably knows, the deck is stacked against you from the get go. Even if you get out of the ticket, you'll pay more in "administration fees" then the ticket would have cost.

Taxcheat:gwowen: Yeah, but that didn't speak to the constitutionality of the cameras

Neither did the court. Re-read what I wrote above. The judges upheld the right to adopt the ordinance, not the content of the ordinance itself which they strongly hinted (in dicta) was in conflict with state law.

PKY:In some countries the penalty for running a red light is mandatory suspended license. And likely forced to retake the driving tests. Because you shouldn't be allowed to be in the driver's seat of tons of steel if you can't handle the most basic idea in traffic, red = stop.

These aren't too target the people that blow through a red light randomly when traffic is already going the other way and endanger lives.

This targets people that go through the light fractions of a second after it switched from yellow to red.

Maybe soon they'll just have people wearing Google Glass pick up some extra money by using their space-age spy spectacles to report speeders, litterers, jaywalkers, and other criminals on a citizen$ patrol dealio.

Fantasta Potamus:PKY: In some countries the penalty for running a red light is mandatory suspended license. And likely forced to retake the driving tests. Because you shouldn't be allowed to be in the driver's seat of tons of steel if you can't handle the most basic idea in traffic, red = stop.

These aren't too target the people that blow through a red light randomly when traffic is already going the other way and endanger lives.

This targets people that go through the light fractions of a second after it switched from yellow to red.

AND people who go through on yellow but don't go fast enough to make it through the intersection before it turns red.

dickfreckle:All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.

The good news is that we seem to have hit "peak Camera". On the one hand, there are still plenty of cities that have them, and plenty that are planning on using them.

On the other hand, at least one state that I know of* has banned automated enforcement entirely, and a bunch of others are trying. A lot of cities are realizing that the way the contracts are written actually costs money. And so I think that this is an idea that will slide into the dustbin of history outside of the more corrupt states and cities.

*Michigan - If you've ever driven in Michigan, you'll know why. Clipping the red light is a cherished tradition such that in any other state, I'm about a second late off the line, and MI drivers are sane, wonderful people by any other state's standard until they get on an interstate at which point they drive 85 (and are perfectly safe, sane people while going 85 in a 55).

I got one of these driving through Newark. I swear the yellow light for that left turn is less than 2 seconds. Coming from NY I am not used to that shiat. I am NOT in the habit of blowing through red lights. The blurry picture they helpfully included shows maybe 18in of my bumper over the yellow line.

Sim Tree:Or they could do what the other courts do and charge a $100.00 'administrative fee' for pleading not guilty so they get their money anyway.

It's worse in Illinois. The stack of court costs in traffic court amount to over $300, even when you're found not guilty. The judge says "Don't complain to me or the clerk. The rates are set by state law."

Being that most in traffic are illegals with no license or insurance*, the 20-something various entities found another way to bleed money from people who can't vote them out of office, and for the rest of us, we must have been guilty of sumthin' or the cops wouldn't have pulled us over.

dickfreckle:All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.

dickfreckle:All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.