Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 21, 2012 12:38:50 GMT -5

Also, the thing with the guy's cousin turning in Gyp is at the top of my list for things that probably will happen but shouldn't. It just seems super convenient to me that Gyp goes around indiscriminately killing people all season without consequence then his henchman (who has been watching these murders) suddenly decides to grow a pair because his annoying cousin was the victim this time.

Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 26, 2012 10:20:39 GMT -5

I don't know if it was the best episode ever (I'd still say the finale of season two), but it was damn good. Very intense, suspenseful episode. I'll keep from posting any specifics about the episode until you watch it.

Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 27, 2012 9:57:16 GMT -5

*Spoilers from last Sunday's episode*Also, prepare yourself for my mega rambling post of the week. I watched the preview for the finale (which is super amazing), but I am going to keep anything from it out of the following post.

I was able to watch it yesterday afternoon and talk to my best BE buddy, karosko, about it last night, so I can't take full credit all of these ideas.

First of all, that episode was great. I have said previously how BE is a show that moves slow to move every little piece into place for the bigger payoff at the end of the season. Sunday was a great example of this. Everything has moved into place for the larger conflict at the end of the season. One quote that stuck out to both karosko and I (aside from Capone's absolute gold one at the end of the episode) was Lansky's "Everything is connected." Much of the long term relationships and interactions on the show have really come to shape what happened on Sunday and last night, i.e. Richard and Gillian's battle for Tommy, Nucky's slight toward Chalky about the club, Rothstein and Lansky warning Luciano off the heroin deal due to the risk. All these small interactions have a larger impact on the bigger scheme of things. The biggest one that sticks out to me is Capone. Capone loves to fight and is by nature an aggressive man. Would Torrio have been willing to drive 18 hours to get involved in a war that he could have just as easily stayed out of? Hells no. Rothstein turning down Luciano and Lansky sent them to Masseria who they are now in a ton of debt to which then led Luciano to take a risk that he shouldn't have.

It's nice to see the tension with Gillian and Richard come to a head. It's one of the storylines that has been building slowly all season, and it is nice to see it get some meaningful screen time down the stretch. I agree that the scene with Richard laying out all his guns was hard as f*ck. Karosko has a fear that Richard might not make it through the finale, but I have faith in my boy. They don't build up a character to be that badass to have him get shot in the back by a non-violent character. Oh f*ck, I just had a memory from The Wire. I am sad now. I do wonder how Gillian will react to Gyp taking over her house. She has done a lot to put herself in a position of power, and I just don't see her giving it up easily.

Speaking of Gyp, I hereby retract my theory of him making it through this season. With him making such a bold move against Nucky the episode before the finale, I don't see them extending it beyond the finale. It has the feeling of him overextending himself and getting bit by it. Overconfidence has been shown to be a fault of his before.

The storyline with Eddie was great. In a world where it seems that everyone close to him has betrayed him, Nucky finally realized that the one person who is 100% loyal to him is the person he has probably treated the worst. Just think of how many times Nucky has belittled or berated Eddie through the course of the show.

Like Flanzo, I was totally pleased with Chalky getting a bigger part of the story finally. For almost three entire seasons, he has been part of the scenery for the most part despite him running the entire black part of the city.

Margaret is out of the picture on a train at the beginning of the episode. I wonder where she went exactly, and if and when she will make it back to have an impact in Atlantic City. With Gyp's move, it seemed like they were tabling the fallout from Nucky finding out about Owen until a later time.

I wonder how Van Alden will fit into all this. It seems strange to drop his storyline for the season where they did with his meeting with Capone, but it seems they are moving the focus for the show to NYC (Luciano's arrest) and Atlantic City (Nucky and Gyp) for the finale, and I really don't see Capone bringing Van Alden with him to Atlantic City.

Lastly, we also spoke last night about how the show has a certain amount of characters that are "safe" for the finale either due to plot or history, i.e. Nucky, Capone, Luciano, and characters that are not, i.e. Richard, Gillian, Gyp. Gyp seems like the easy bet for not making it through the finale, but I can't help but feel that someone else isn't going to make it. Anybody got ideas on who the unlucky person is?

Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 27, 2012 13:28:17 GMT -5

I can't figure it out for the life of me, Dave. According to the episode 12 synopsis, Nucky will give Rothstein "one of his most prized assets" for his help in ending the war. I can't figure out what the hell that would be or how that fits into who gets "sacrificed" as the week 12 trailer alluded to.

I'm thinking Margaret's conspicuous absence this episode was by design so that (maybe, just maybe) we sort of forget about her a bit and then the payoff is greater when Nucky sends someone to murder her at the end of next week's episode once the war with Gyp is resolved. Like Nuck's murder of Jimmy Darmody last season, further proof of how cold-hearted Nuck is increasingly becoming. I wouldn't say it's likely, but I'd say it's at least a possibility. Her absence this past Sunday certainly makes me more suspicious.

Also, as I told Dave in chat yesterday, I could see a scenario where Richard is the one to murder Gyp: perhaps when Gyp and Gillian are getting intimate in the bedroom, Gyp has his mistreated lieutenant Tonino (by the way: DO NOT FORGET that Gyp tells Tonino to "shut the f*ck up" in this episode...that was ABSOLUTELY included for a reason) guard the door. This happens to be the moment when Richard goes Rambo on the cathouse, Richard comes for Gillian, and Tonino just slides aside, allowing Richard to murder both Gyp and Gillian in the midst of fulfilling one of Gyp's f*cked up fetishes.

I am worried about Richard; while the scene of him laying out his guns was immensely gratifying and awesome, it absolutely reeked of Richard preparing for "the soldier's death." However, one of the one main reasons why I'm optimistic he'll live is that he didn't have some sort of last conversation with Julia...not yet, anyway. They'll have to have that before they (:( :() kill off Richard, if that is indeed what they plan to do.

Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 27, 2012 13:40:00 GMT -5

I sent you a facebook message on this, karosko, but just in case you haven't seen it, I don't think you are right about the possibility of it being Richard on the floor at the beginning of the preview. From the lighting, carpet pattern and pant color, it looks to be the guy that Richard shoots in the scene immediately after in the preview. Whew.

Post by A$AP Rosko on Nov 27, 2012 20:18:08 GMT -5

Dude, me too, Flanz. It was like 2 in the morning when I finished that episode and I still let out an excited "yes!" haha. My roommate was probably wondering what the f*ck was up. I was so pumped though. Coolest line ever.

Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 28, 2012 11:38:00 GMT -5

To pass the time until Sunday, Gyp is the easy choice for the person not to make it out of the finale. Pick a character you think won't make it through Sunday. I am pretty sure karosko decided on Margaret or Chalky when we discussed this last night (can't remember if he ever settled on one). I am going with Eli. Who do you guys have?

Post by Flanz on Nov 28, 2012 12:22:09 GMT -5

One of the NYC gangsters goes down, I'm thinking Joe Masseria.

But as far as the Atlantic City people go, I'm picking Richard. This show has shown in the past it has no qualms about blowing a fan favorite away (Jimmy, Manny Horvitz early in this season). Richard has the story arc to warrant it, he would be a truly tragic character that the fans would riot over, and he's in a situation where he can come out looking honorably but savage at the same time (going into the whore house and just laying waste to all of Gyp's guys).

This will lead to Gyp's force being severely weakened and ripe for Nuck to sweep in with his newly-acquired alliance forces to crush Gyp.

Post by Flanz on Nov 28, 2012 12:31:45 GMT -5

Masseria going down could make sense. I'm not sure when he died in real life but I think I remember one of the producers of the show saying they may not always stick to the real life things exactly

It'd be jumping ahead a year or two in Masseria's life. But he was set up by Luciano in real life and was killed at the hands of his own men. It's something I could see the show doing, maybe Luciano does it in order to take over Masseria's operation and use his political connections to get out of trouble. I dunno, but I don't think they'll kill of Rothstein, Lansky/Luciano clearly have a lot more work to be done on the show, Gyp is probably dead anyway (although I hope they have him go out in an awesome manner), to me that leaves Masseria as a potential death that isn't really expected.

Post by itrainmonkeys on Nov 28, 2012 12:46:27 GMT -5

What would be a good way for Gyp to go out?

He shoots Eli who we think is dead and right before he can pull the trigger on Nucky he gets hit from behind by Eli, on the ground with a pistol in his hand. Then Nucky/Eli get a goodbye where Eli says he loves/worships him or whatever.

Kessler gets him?

Maybe Nucky is about to go down but uses his smarts and Gyp's short temper to goad him into a fight or something then Nucky overcomes (not physically but he does something sneaky/shady).

Or does that dog bite him causing him to fuck up and get shot when not expecting it?

Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 28, 2012 13:37:05 GMT -5

What year is it currently in the show because Masseria died in real life. I thought you were still rolling at about 1924-1925, so that's be 6-7 years ahead of schedule. If we played that much with history, we'd also have to put Rothstein on the table for possibilities.

What political connections are you talking about Luciano and Lansky having, Flanzo? They operate out of a sh*t hole right now, Nucky is pissed at them for not backing him vs. Masseria and Rothstein will be pissed when he finds out they tried to move heroin behind his back especially since they made ties to Masseria in the process.

Karosko's post above lays out a pretty legit scenario for Gyp getting it, but it hings on something in the preview, so you may not want to read it.

Post by Flanz on Nov 28, 2012 13:45:19 GMT -5

Or, it could turn into a sort of Jimmy Darmody relationship. Like if Eli gets killed then Nucky takes him under his wing and he starts working for his gangster Uncle.

Would make sense with him going out of the way to help Nucky and the compliments Nucky paid him.

I think Gyp dies by the hand of someone we'd perceive as weaker. His entire character has been built around his status as, well, a bully. He bullies people that are scared of him, and it'd be fitting if his character fell at the hands of someone that he either a) bullied himself, b) is close to someone Gyp bullied, or c) just someone we'd perceive as "weak," but is no longer weak with a gun in their hand.

That's also a running theme I've kind of picked up on - the discrepancy between internal strength and strength created out of power and weapons.

Examples:

Chaulky is a strong person. Gun or no gun, he's not dropping to his knees and begging you for his life. His strength is his own, he doesn't need to supplement it with anything else to keep it his own.

Nucky is not a strong person. His strength is derived from being the boss and knowing he will always have guys fighting for him. The complete and total panic he was experiencing (visibly) during the last episode was staggering, to be honest.

Consider how Nucky acted for much of that episode: jumpy, nervous, frightened. Chaulky went face-to-face with the man on a war path and didn't even blink. Had it been Nuck in that situation (at least Buschemi's version of him), he would've blinked I feel like.

And I also don't think Nucky was like this early in the show. He was that big-balls-having bad-ass mawf*cka that Chaulky is. It's kind of interesting, but if you go back to the early episodes (I watch them from time to time to see my boy Jimmy) Nuck has a very different attitude. When he has a plan, when he has men and power and money, when he has everything in place there isn't a more cocksure person on the planet. But when things start to be shaken up, Nucky becomes shaken up himself. Conversely, if you took everything away from Chaulky I get the sense he'd be the same person.

Also, after Sunday, I'm referring to him as Chaulky Little because that was one baddddd Omar-esque standoff.

Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 28, 2012 14:17:06 GMT -5

To go further with your theme, Chalky is very sure of himself in the gangster world as you mentioned, but he seems downright uncomfortable in his own home especially with his wife being almost patronizing to him in that dinner scene earlier this season.

Post by itrainmonkeys on Nov 28, 2012 15:04:13 GMT -5

Consider how Nucky acted for much of that episode: jumpy, nervous, frightened. Chaulky went face-to-face with the man on a war path and didn't even blink. Had it been Nuck in that situation (at least Buschemi's version of him), he would've blinked I feel like.

Edit: I see you addressed parts of this in your next paragraph...so sorry if it's redundant.

Yea but Gyp was on a war path heading to Nucky. Chalky knows he has no beef with Gyp (at the moment anyway). Also, Nucky only had one person he could really trust. I imagine without all them extra guys and guns the situation would maybe be a little different. I'm not saying Chalky would be as scared as Nucky was....but there's a big difference between their situations.

I do agree, though, that Chalky has strength and conviction while Nucky's strength comes from the power he was able to take by using his wits. He's not physically strong (though he does have some fight in him) and doesn't seem to have a great handle on his personal relationships but I'm hoping this season changes that. The look on Nucky's face as he realized that he didn't know Chalky's phone number or how he knew NOTHING about the man who served him for so long really was awesome. That realization that he's alone because of the way he acts.