Nix is against this (see evs post) but moving the free shop solves two problems ---

The free shop is full of junk and the random wierdo fucks that are associated with it. Imagine it nicely laid out and contained in a room which is accessible only at certain times. Imagine the extra space and the niceness of a tidier red-room. I don't think the curtain et al are working as well as we anticipated. It is messy, full of debris and brings the quality of the front room down.

The shop itself is beautiful and lovely but under-used and not making as much money as it could. The argument goes that free-shopers won't buy stuff so what is the point? But I don't think that is true - they go into the shop looking for something free - see something else they want to pay money for and go for that. If nothing else, at least they know the shop exists and if they need a gift or something - they can find it. Think about it - the freeshop could move into a corner of the shop, it could be clearly marked / scored off. Hell, if nothing else, it will give the volunteers working something to do after they check their e-mail. They could arrange the free shop so it is attractive. They would need to keep an eye on people who might get itchy fingers or get confused about what is free etc.

I still think the freeshop - for all of the amazingness it brings to the forest - could be better and still has some very concerning side-affects.Think about it.Ryan

On further thought.Explaining the concept to Weirdofucks and folk with little or no English will no doubt prove exhaustingstill,overall I'm still into it.Might offer my servicesPissed and SnipKeep the vodka for myselfDai, high on his own supply offers wholly unqualified haircuts to all comers at no cost.

hey guys you're funny, we already don't have enough space to put the shop stuff (even if there are no lot of things!).

If you wanted to put half of the Forest in the shop you should have said it before, we would have painted a rack and put it in a corner!

evil-X

But seriously, if you do that, do it properly organising the shop as everything can fit in in a nice way. Because it's infuriating to see how people can make a mess of a work you spent time...And it's really easy to make a mess of the others work just because we are not interested on it.

Speak with Cyrielle she is the Shop Manager.

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"If I can't dance I don't wanna be part of your revolution" Emma Goldman

also, i think it could be done nicely, x, if someone takes the time. I don't think we can just dump the free shop in there. Plus, I love the shop - I just want to see it work so people can buy my books. It is very frustrating that more people don't use the shop more. this could help, I think. If I had thought of it before, I would have said it before. I am not so smart.

obviously with the proposed developments to the building, that entire section of frontage would change to proper glass frontage, and door from street straight to shop, presumeably that would be awesome.

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Maybe it could work? But it will be a kaleidoscopic blend of mysterious shadows and rainbow hued-dreams seen through compassionate tears.

I didn't know the shop was there for weeks. may be I'm blind but is there decent signs for it on the outside of the Forest?

Also if you want more people to visit the shop the entrance should be made a bit more attractive. There was loads of rubbish resting around the big doors recently, but the main thing is to make the shop more obvious. the Entrance to it is in a relatively dark hallway which might put people off. BIG obvious signs on the outside, some lights in the hallway (just by the shop to save electricty, or some nice bright candles) and a another big sign right above the shop doorway/or on the floor next the doorway (e.g. a sandwich board with a big fook off arrow). Although it's part of the Forest it would work better if it was treated as a seperate entity and publicised as a seperate entity. Some people may be interested in going in to the shop but not at all interested in the cafe, if they think its just part of the cafe they may be less inclined to go in.

agree with moving free shop provided it's done well and sausage fingers can still access it. That is my bag. And also agree with you ghandi, there was talk before of making a light up sign for outside using the windows, is this still on the cards? Nix?D xx

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Our big brother's got no heart,
when I get my chance I'm going to punch him in the nose, in the nose, in the nose

if we put the free shop, people will be totally confused between that they can have for free and that they can buy. That not promote the work of the artiste, to put in the same level them work and the mess on the free shop.

I understand that can bring people in the shop, but if it's people who came for have something free, they will not come for buy our things. If i can have a bag for free, why buy one in the shop!!!

I know that for the moment the shop is not the best, and that there are a lot of people who didn't know his existance, but that will change soon....!!!

I really think that's not a good idea:1. people will be confused between what's free or not2. the free shop will be open just during the shop opening3. that's already a mess in the shop because artists and non profit organisation bring stuffs,

Olivier wrote:1. people will be confused between what's free or not2. the free shop will be open just during the shop opening3. that's already a mess in the shop because artists and non profit organisation bring stuffs,

1. no, they won't. if they do - staff can explain. maybe the freeshop can be closer to the door so you can spot people getting confused easier. or in a far corner so they have to look at the "pay" merchandise. Clearly, not selling stuff is not a problem because the shop has been not selling stuff for months. Getting people in and making them aware it exists is a first step.

2. that's fine. there is a free shop in berlin and it has regular opening and closing hours. this works fine.

3. staff will need to keep the shop tidy and respectable looking. It CAN be done.

It seems that many people are in favour of this. I think the opposition needs better reasons that "it will be confusing" and "people won't buy stuff." Those arguments are based on conjecture and impossible to find out without trying.

Sure, most of the people who agree with the freeshop moving DON'T WORK in the shop...that's strange!And people who works in the shop disagree...is something going wrong?!?

If the Free shop is a big mess it's because there is nobody in charge of it! But now according to the EVS meeting minute, Ida is in charge of re-organising it. So maybe you can wait some weeks to see how is that working.

And where the hell do you want the free shop to fit IN the shop! With Magda's stuff 1\4 of the room is used, and the other space is full too!

Finally Cyrielle said that changes are coming soon so the question of the moving of the freeshop can't be taken on the BB! Discuss it at a Shop meeting, with all the people really involved in it, and with people who has new ideas, and wants to be involved in the shop!

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"If I can't dance I don't wanna be part of your revolution" Emma Goldman

no-one is taking the decision here, it is a discussion, of course any change like this would happen through some shop or fwg meeting. this is an easy place to discuss this kind of idea with everyone able to be involved and not having to be in the same room..

the arguments against moving the freeshop seem rather poor:

if someone is constantly in charge of the freeshop (such as Ida as you point out) they will not constantly be able to supervise it - which is what would happen if its in the shop.

there is a massive amount of unused room in the shop, normal shops have little isles and things like that - we dont.

when people are working in the shop, they are essentially sitting in an empty room reading a book, on the internet, or talking to a friend for most of the time, it must get a bit boring i'd have thought, this might give something more fun to do.

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Maybe it could work? But it will be a kaleidoscopic blend of mysterious shadows and rainbow hued-dreams seen through compassionate tears.

the most basic human psychology (which is widely employed by the capitalist supermarkets)...

if you put free (like promotions stands) or cheap/widely bought things (like bread/bakery) in the end of the shop, people tend to buy much more on their ways to the first target. It might not work in the same way with everyone but it does with most of the ppl. So I definitely agree with moving the free shop in the BizArt.

imo the problem of the freeshop getting messy is because it's more or less got a de facto organisational system. people either put things in near vaguely like items, or, more often, in at random or just dump things on the floor in bags or boxes, and while i've nothing against those who contribute but don't have time to put their contributions in sensible places because they've already done something fantastic, the lack of de jure ordering of items means that things are much more likely to be left where they've been left instead of relocated to a sensible location by others who do have time to tidy things up because the later people, who might not be familiar with bottom-up getting involved with things, don't have any kind of psychological mandate to fuck about with the locations of stuff.

a solution to this; have marked out permanent locations for certain types of item. we get a lot of books, kitchen and dining items, cds/cassettes/dvds/vhs tapes, computer peripherals, shoes, toys, etc. while there have been attempts by those who try to keep the free shop orderly to put certain things on one shelf or other, or to keep the wire shelves above the rack for shoes, or keey baby clothes in one box on the shelves on the left, i feel that if there was a more comprehensive system, i.e., "this shelf for books only plz!" or "stick all plates, cutlery, and other kitchen related things 'ere! thx!" this would help a lot. also, i think the shelves on the left are just not helping the situation as well as they could. while the boxes on them do provide separation, there needs to be bug fuck off 72pt text saying what each box it for, not some wee stick on label.

also, something i think which is important (if not more so) as the above, i don't think the text of the current signage gets the message across to those who come to the free shop that they would be doing something awesome if they could use just a couple of minutes of their spare time putting an item or three In It's Right Place. lets let people know they should be bold in helping out. lets let them know that their taking the initiative is how the forest is run and it's what we expect them to do.

maybe moving the free shop into biz'art in the end might have to happen, but i feel there is much that can be tried to solve the untidy problem before we get to that stage.

on the issue of the shop not having enough people buying things in it, what kind of signage is there for it in the red room or cafe currently?

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hey, if you don't like it, post on the BB (so you can ask about participating for better) | MilkMiruku

I think moving the free shop in a shop is a really wrong idea because if the shop doesn’t work really for the moment it’s because it’s actually a big mess. So if we are goanna put the free shop in, it will be very worst for the mess, it will take a lot of place for nothing. If we try to arrange the shop we need a lot of empty place to put more stuff in. Cyrielle is the new fresh manager and she is really enthusiastic about this, she will try to find more artist, and more interesting stuff to cell, so I think we need to put our trust on her to help her for this difficult job and maybe wait to see what will happens with the shop. We need to built more shelf, more things to hang the work of the different artist, to tidy up the shop so please leave us to try to do something better before to put the free shop in and you will see that in a few months we will have any empty place for the free shop! Let’s try we can do it!!!!! Last point: Magda take enough place like that in the shop but I think she saves on herself all the money. (She saves 186 pounds in one month, but the artists save only 26, 34 pounds). So we need to change that and we will do that!!!! 

A shop is not the same as a free shop. Actually the word Free Shop is wrong, but thats another point. Thank you mentormilk, I had exactly the same thoughts and I will try to explain them from my point of view.We have two problems: 1. the Free shop is a mess2. the Shop doesnt make much profit

ok, but if we try to solve them in the same way, other problems will arise, such as:-still no profit for the shop because people wont buy if they get stuff for free-a shop which has old underwear and single shoes and broken cassettes and batteries AND good books, hand-made-clothes, pictures etc. really doesnt seem to have any concept or an idea behind it of what we want to offer, what we apreciate etc. the worthy things might loose their worth because of the crap which is right beneath. (I don´t say everything in the free shop is crap but last time I even found old babyfood and sometimes I am tempted to throw away some things because it is disgusting)-The free shop in the entrance of the cafe might bring more people into the cafe, I mean, some people seem to come regularly to check what is there and meanwhile they take a coffee. The place in the entrance is very strategical for the cafe. there is enough place. In the shop there isnt and it is definitely NOT strategical because people don´t use that entrance for the cafe.

So, let´s solve the problems we have one by one: 1. lets make the shop a better place to go, by -promotion (posters, flyers, word of mouth-everyone who wants to sell things there should contribute to this- I mean they should be interested in!!)-more things, maybe cheaper and...lets say more wearable, I dont want to say normal but less excentric clothes-signs outside and in the cafe-nicer entrance (is there another place where the rubbish could go? Or otherwise we need a curtain or something else to hide it.) Plants.

2. lets reorganize the free shop, by- a good curtain which separes it from the cafe and makes it more attractive- nice drawers with labels, where which stuff should go in-a system which can be understood easily by anyone who wants to put stuff in - a person who watches after it, maybe every afternoon- I can be the person to organize it, but this job should be made by several, at least three, people-maybe the person who is covering the KM break?

So every problem can be resolved properly and we really dont have to make a compromise which leaves a lot of problems behind.

i too am in the keep the free shop where it is camp. yes, it does get messy but if every time we took a peek for the gems that turn up we also had a bit of tidy it would help. feel free ida to throw out the stuff that you think is disgusting, most people would probably agree with you, and it can also be very cleansing (and you find good stuff). i apologise for not having made a sign saying not to put large computer parts in the free shop as these clutter it up very quickly and are hard to dispose of when no one has taken them after a couple of months. i shall do this very soon!it would be good if an evs person could take responsibility for checking it on regular basis (ida have you taken this on already?) as they would know what things had been there for ages and so could be gotten rid of. i don;t think it needs someone keeping an eye on it all the time. the point that it would only be there shop opening hours would be a problem as shop not open 7 days and it is great idea that free shop there all the time for dropping off stuff and taking things. many people work/study and so evening free shopping is way forward (7.30 is still early before any one points that out).the curtain idea has been tried but hasn't worked with the red one that are there at present. i think it is good to have it on show as definately one of best features of cafe!i think it would be good to give cyrielle chance to make some changes in the shop and see what happens in a few months. better signage for both would be helpfula sign in the free shop directing peeps to the shop and a sign on the cafe door pointing to shop would be good, it could be painted on in same way as cafe/hall done on other doors (not that i am biased)so there ends my rant also possibilty of dai sipping and snipping terrifies me!!

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I saw two shooting stars last night, i wished on them, but they were only satellites.is it wrong to wish on space hardware?(Billy Bragg)

Not all madness is genius. I think the free shop should stay out of the real shop. There are problems with both of them. But combining them is not going to solve either of their different problems. The sausage men are not going to buy a bag of coffee or a badge while picking up some as yet unsoiled trousers. It is just impossible for the free shop to stay tidy, and it would be an awful idea to impose this mess on the people working in Bizart. You could have signs in each shop directing people to the other. Tom Cruise likes to spend his wad. Mordechai Vanunu is tighter than an Aberdonian nun. Condoleza Rice gets served in both shops.

It is good that people have crazy ideas. But the people who end up doing the extra work should have their sensible concerns listened to.

then I propose closing the free shop. everything everyone else has proposed has been tried, more or less, for the last 6 years. (wow - 6 years. The freeshop needs a birthday party.)

it seems that people want to now make more work for themselves by putting someone "in charge" of the free shop. Essentially, this is like putting someone in charge of the toilets. It will be an insane job and far more time consuming and difficult than if the free shop was shrunk and moved and presented neatly. charilty shops seem to manage loads of donations etc. It can't be that much work.

further - we've just come off the festival --- now, in my opinion, that was the best chance for the shop to prove its merit in terms of cash. magda was hair cutting like mad, loads of foot traffic went by, the hall was open all day --- people people people. how did the shop do over the month? do we have any figures? that is the pinnacle of what the shop can do, I'd imagine.

chances are there will be less foot traffic from the free shop. I would think that those looking for trousers would turn around when they find the free shop gone. -still no profit for the shop because people wont buy if they get stuff for free - this is impossible to say. but i agree with taskin that this is wrong.

-a shop which has old underwear and single shoes and broken cassettes and batteries AND good books, hand-made-clothes, pictures etc.really doesnt seem to have any concept or an idea behind it of what we want to offer, what we apreciate etc.the worthy things might loose their worth because of the crap which is right beneath. - shop keeper can go through the stuff. Junk the junk and display the good stuff in a creative way. you know. like all the charity shops all over the world does. why would you keep odd shoes and dirty underwear? that is nuts. whoever is working in the shop when donations come gets to decide what stays. maybe people would stop bringing us junk? that would be great! throw stuff away!

-The free shop in the entrance of the cafe might bring more people into the cafe, I mean, some people seem to come regularly to check what is there and meanwhile they take a coffee. The place in the entrance is very strategical for the cafe. there is enough place.In the shop there isnt and it is definitely NOT strategical because people don´t use that entrance for the cafe. - if by strategic, you mean it makes us look like a filthy shit-hole with a computer than you are right. I would say that the free-shop is not a main attraction for walk-in business. certainly in the time i've been here it has only attracted the human equivalent of flies.

1. lets make the shop a better place to go, by-promotion (posters, flyers, word of mouth-everyone who wants to sell things there should contribute to this-I mean they should be interested in!!)-more things, maybe cheaper and...lets say more we - This can still be done / should be done. a good plan!

-nicer entrance (is there another place where the rubbish could go? Or otherwise we need a curtain or something else to hide it.) Plants. - sure. didn't we do this in august. rubbish was delt with well then and it looked really nice in the lobby and with magda cutting hair there seemed to be a real vibe in the shop. how did we do?

2. lets reorganize the free shop, by- a good curtain which separes it from the cafe and makes it more attractive - tried. failed.

- nice drawers with labels, where which stuff should go in-a system which can be understood easily by anyone who wants to put stuff in - this barely works in the kitchen where, arguably, people are more reliable. we have tried labels. it half works but hasn't done much. - a person who watches after it, maybe every afternoon- I can be the person to organize it, but this job should be made by several, at least three, people-maybe the person who is covering the KM break? - so, now we need 3 people for the freeshop and one for the real shop. we really are (how did they say it?) um, a "limitless waste of time and resources." I mean, we could have someone stand there for 12 hours a day to make sure it stays nice after each individual ploughs through it.

Look, we need the room in the cafe and we need the cafe (for a while at least) to not look like a total shit hole. this is in an effort to help the kitchen turn a profit. the cafe market is getting more and more competitive - new starbucks, two coffee kiosks, kilimanjaro just expanded, bean scene is always packed - one of the main detractors of the forest is that it looks like hell from the moment you walk in. the free-shop is not the only reason for this, but it doesn't help. we tried to get rid of it but we all felt it was too important to lose. I'd like to see it looking clean and beautiful and if people are dedicated, it probably could be. I still think it would be far more benificial to the whole organisation and easier to manage if it moved. If the other option is to keep it where it is and stay on it - maybe it could work - let's see what it looks like today and then next week at this time after a really concentrated period of attention. then we can see if it can fit in the shop. good luck to whoever takes it on!

thank you for the constructive critics Ryan...nevertheless I would like to try to get the Free Shop in a better state but just if it will not disappear in the next weeks. or we can make a free shop action day as for the action room tomorrow-its not gonna be that hard!

i'd say shrinking would be good. not a good idea to move to the main cafe. more clutter. still would be untidy. distracting to events. and, frankly, we need as much room for tables and chairs as possible. unlike the library - an unmaintained freeshop would totally expand. that's why it would be best in the shop.

I kinda agree with moving the Free Shop. When I 1st started in the forest, the red room felt like a actual space that was welcoming to hang out in. And lots of people did. Not now. It's sad.

Back then, if someone said "were doing an event in the cafe, if you don't like it go to the red room" it was fine.Now it feels like you've been banished to the concrete alleyway out back with the bins that cheap pubs call their "beer garden". (Thats probably a bit harsh. But it doesn't feel welcoming is my point)

Mixing shop and free shop could be fun. Both have problems, and this could do intresting things. Also, its not unheard off. Charity shops now do there cheap donated stuff and commercial goods in the same space and it works.We can always try and move it back if it doesn't work. Lets experiment!

I also don't want to see the free shop die.

And pragmatically, throwing volunteers at a problem is not always the best way of solving things. There is so much more we could be doing.

it was looking a lot better last night . ive notice this with the free shop when its under threat people tidy it up . but then that interest dies down after while . and then all the discussion starts again . i know a few people take a regular interest in keeping it tidy all time . by its ruined by many who leave it in a mess . i guess this is what we are battling against . ive always thought the name freeshop is bit misleading , if the time and energy put into the freeshop is worthless then the it is a freeshop . but i dont think it is worthless its a valuable resource for many people and the many should ensure that it exists .

I say make it smaller or get rid of it completely! it really doesn't help make the place look inviting where its situated right now. I had a cup of tea in the red-room the other day and instantly felt depressed. We repainted the front room from gold do dark red...dark red is depressing and dingy not sure how this colour was decided on. there's still random tat on the walls and it was cold. We had this discussion yonks ago on the front of house board when we wanted to change the gold room, and there were many good ideas about making it more inviting and they just didn't happen, instead the front room was painted a dark colour and some tat was taking down of the walls, only to be replaced. It really is a case of "first impressions count" time. The same people will always come to the Forest coz they know its cool, but I know that if I had no clue what you guys were about today and walked past the Forest I would almost certainly keep walking.

The freeshop is a great idea but its too often a mess...a mess which anyone looking through the window can see. There was a broken chair in the front window. I personally think that if you want the freeshop it should be made smaller and put in the main cafe near the library. The shop (not freeshop) is fine where it is but clearer advertisment is needed and again the entrance needs to look more inviting. Is there signs outside telling people what you sell in there? That might help. A board outside would be good.

The front room needs to be painted a nice clean bright colour e.g.WHITE, have zero tat on the walls, some nice big photos of Forest events and some very very simple and short bits of info about what the Forest is. Some semi decent chairs and tables, a couple of plants and thats it.

We all know that the forest is a great place but I think the front room, including the free shop really is putting a heck of a lot of people off. It just looks dirty!!!!!

Pomme has been tidying the free shop for the last couple of Sundays. The nicer it is, the longer it stays nice. But it still doesn't take long before it looks bad again. It is easy to say that volunteers could spend a little time tending it. But all you need is a couple of days where there is a shortage of volunteers, and the place is a tip again and no one wants to go near it.

I agree with your points gandi. ... although i think the wall and ceiling space should be curated and we should invite people who we think are amazing to do an installation or whatever.. (i have an interesting idea, but is prohibitively expensive)

ie.. at its best (in my view) the room looked like this:

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Maybe it could work? But it will be a kaleidoscopic blend of mysterious shadows and rainbow hued-dreams seen through compassionate tears.

your right chris, cool art should be on the walls and ceiling but there are often times where walls are just plastered with random crap like outdated flyers and posters, torn pictures etc...not art. It's really a case of, if there's too much stuff on the walls, even if its all cool art, then it starts looking messy.

The pictures of the room you posted do look good, it's tidyer and a lot more welcoming. i think one of the main problems with the room is not what it looks like at night, because some nice candles and a good bunch of people can always make a place look inviting, but more of how it looks during the day when there are less people in there and no warm, bright candles or atmosphere inviting people in. I definately don't want the room to look all clinical and boring as thats not what the place is like but just have to be careful about how much random crap is in there. During the day the room doesn't get loads of light coming in, there are no additional lights on in there, most people are sat in the warmer main cafe area. All that as well as the dark walls, make it a bit gloomy, which is not great when trying to entice people in. One of the main things is the lack of nice sofas in the front room, surely that instantly makes it look a bit more inviting. that and a few plants, preferably not dying ones and it would start looking nice....nice! sorry i hate that word too but i used the word inviting too much already...how about cosy? especially since we don't seem to have any summer, people want to escape to a cozy cafe out of the rain.

Also, how about a huge menu on one of the walls of the front room?, not only will the prices get people coming in, but others might actually realise that we are also a cafe.

We could also do with some sort of very brief one sentence slog-esque thing in there too or on the window. i know we've got the huge poster telling people what to do, but something that sums the Forest up in 1 sentence would be great. e.g. "Cafe and arts venue, free live music/film/spoken word events, art exhibitions, great vegetarian food and drink. Everyday 10am till 11pm". I know that could be better but i think you get my drift. it instantly tells people what we are, who we are, what we do and when we do it...sort of. What do you think? I'm just trying to view the place as if I'd never ever been there before and what would entice me in.

i came in yesterday to put some stuff in the free shop. it was very tidy - well done to whoever did that! but the front room still looked dull & uninviting. i couldn't agree more with the people who say it ought to have a makeover so it looks warm & comfortable.

unfortunately, if we leave the free shop there it will continue to encourage highly dubious people to come in and wee on our sofas.

i think we can do this. actually, the come collective (since they can't use the gallery) said they would add some installations to the red room for oct.4th. I am going to encourage them to do something functional and cool and warm. yes? it would be really good to get collective groups to use the space and change it every 4 or 6 months? needs people with a unified vision though - something which we regularly lack. it strikes me that the room is more and more a disgrace.