What's the difference between a $1,199 full featured AV Receiver and an $18,000 boutique pre-amp/processer? Perhaps less than you think as Simaudio, responding to speculation, confirms that the "brains and guts" of their Moon CP-8 Pre/Pro was based on Denon AVR-2808CI AV receiver. These AVRs were bought off the retail shelves and modified by Simaudio without coordination from Denon, Audyssey, or any other technology providers. We asked how they justified using someone else product, without permission, to market and sell it as their own at a 15x mark-up.

Read the article to find out. If you're a Simaudio CP-8 owner, we'd like to hear from you too.

This is disheartening to find this out. I will scratch them off my list of prefered vendors should I win the big lottery. They are not the first to use a rebadged brand and probably not the last either. It also looks like they are standing on precarious legal grounds with Denon, Auddsesy to name a few.

It also looks like they are standing on precarious legal grounds with Denon, Auddsesy to name a few.

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I'd say there is enough there to keep the lawyers busy, but I'm not sure if anything will ever come of it. On one hand, you have Audyssey. Though there name is everywhere, they are a small company. It costs money to sue for trademark infringement, and every dollar that they spend is one less dollar they can't spend on R&D and paying their employees. Even though they'd probably win, it's unlikely that whatever damages, if any, they recouped from Simaudio would be worth it.

On the other hand, you have Denon, and though they are a bigger company with more money in the bank, and more lawyers on retainer, it's the same position: cost vs. benefit. Even if they won, they likely spend more on lawyers than they'd ever recoup from Simaudio.

...and so goes it, which is why you note they are not the first, nor the last.

Now, for companies whose entire business is built off the control of their licensing, HDMI for instance, they may take a more principled stand and seek legal action even if it's not a directly lucrative move, in order to protect their brand and IP.

My mother is an artist. She raised two kids on multiple jobs, and when she worked on her art, she struggled. She poured all her creativity into it, and bore the conflict of staying true to her vision versus making changes that sell to an audience - marketability. Maybe she wouldn’t tell you it was so, but as I grew up watching her create for over 30 years to feed us...I can tell you that it’s true.

On more than one occasion, she has had her art misappropriated. I’ll go one step further: it was stolen. Stolen by a much larger entity who was familiar with her work. Changed, yes, but the guts, the heavy-lifting...that was still her vision. There, with someone else’s name on it next to the price tag, and not so much as a “thank you.”

At the same time, I love and respect Daft Punk. Their samples include everyone from Sister Sledge and Barry White to ELO. They, in turn, were sampled by Kanye, the Black Eyed Peas, and Girl Talk. When we turn on that Denon or Simaudio Moon amp, we’re listening to appropriation that may or may not include compensation. Got something great? Buy it, use it, break it, fix it, trash it, change it, mail upgrade it.

So, where do my loyalties lie? With the artist that raised me in my home, or the artists that raised me in my headphones?

I would like to believe that Daft Punk’s early sample work was a celebration of the music that they loved, whether or not they attributed and compensated those artists. On the other hand, I can all but guarantee that the misappropriation of my mother’s art was a crass money grab by an entity that couldn’t be as successful or creative as she was, and knew that they were in the clear because she couldn’t afford to take money out of the pantry to seek legal recourse.

I have to be real here: after hearing Simaudio’s perspective...I’m more inclined to put them in the latter camp than the former. They claim they worked hard to elevate Denon’s work (and Audyssey, HDMI, Dolby, DTS, etc.), but in the end, they freely admit that they couldn’t do it without Denon. And was it a celebration, or a money grab? Perhaps both, but, in my heart, I think a lot more of the latter.

I’m sorry Simaudio. I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors, but if you had openly celebrated and collaborated on Denon’s work from the beginning, these revelations wouldn’t still bring a bitter taste 5 years after your product’s release. Perhaps Denon’s accomplishments are born less in creativity than your own, and due only to their huge R&D budget, but that doesn’t make it right. You should have properly attributed Denon’s work openly, and you owe Denon the apology that my mother will never get.

My mother is an artist. She raised two kids on multiple jobs, and when she worked on her art, she struggled. She poured all her creativity into it, and bore the conflict of staying true to her vision versus making changes that sell to an audience - marketability. Maybe she wouldn’t tell you it was so, but as I grew up watching her create for over 30 years to feed us...I can tell you that it’s true.

On more than one occasion, she has had her art misappropriated. I’ll go one step further: it was stolen. Stolen by a much larger entity who was familiar with her work. Changed, yes, but the guts, the heavy-lifting...that was still her vision. There, with someone else’s name on it next to the price tag, and not so much as a “thank you.”

At the same time, I love and respect Daft Punk. Their samples include everyone from Sister Sledge and Barry White to ELO. They, in turn, were sampled by Kanye, the Black Eyed Peas, and Girl Talk. When we turn on that Denon or Simaudio Moon amp, we’re listening to appropriation that may or may not include compensation. Got something great? Buy it, use it, break it, fix it, trash it, change it, mail upgrade it.

So, where do my loyalties lie? With the artist that raised me in my home, or the artists that raised me in my headphones?

I would like to believe that Daft Punk’s early sample work was a celebration of the music that they loved, whether or not they attributed and compensated those artists. On the other hand, I can all but guarantee that the misappropriation of my mother’s art was a crass money grab by an entity that couldn’t be as successful or creative as she was, and knew that they were in the clear because she couldn’t afford to take money out of the pantry to seek legal recourse.

I have to be real here: after hearing Simaudio’s perspective...I’m more inclined to put them in the latter camp than the former. They claim they worked hard to elevate Denon’s work (and Audyssey, HDMI, Dolby, DTS, etc.), but in the end, they freely admit that they couldn’t do it without Denon. And was it a celebration, or a money grab? Perhaps both, but, in my heart, I think a lot more of the latter.

I’m sorry Simaudio. I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors, but if you had openly celebrated and collaborated on Denon’s work from the beginning, these revelations wouldn’t still bring a bitter taste 5 years after your product’s release. Perhaps Denon’s accomplishments are born less in creativity than your own, and due only to their huge R&D budget, but that doesn’t make it right. You should have properly attributed Denon’s work openly, and you owe Denon the apology that my mother will never get.

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That's why the world needs Audioholics - to keep people honest.

But at least Simaudio admitted when confronted.

Ask Mark Levinson if ATI built some of their amps. They will lie through their teeth and utterly deny it!

Wow, interesting story! A Denon AVR, with amplifier section removed, repackaged as a Simaudio stand-alone preamp/processor, and sold for 15 times the price.

This should make interesting fodder for the trademark, copyright, and licensing lawyers. I can hear Simaudio arguing that they weren't really competing with Denon because their price was 15 times higher!

There are often posts asking why there seem to be plenty of expensive "high-end" amplifiers and 2-channel analog preamps available, but no "high-end" digital AV preamp/processors on the market. The answer is clear – developing an AV pre/pro requires R&D and plenty of money – something beyond the capabilities of most if not all the small "high-end" audio electronic manufacturers.

This should be required reading for anyone who insists they want such a product instead of using a "pedestrian" AVR as a pre/pro .

Wow, interesting story! A Denon AVR, with amplifier section removed, repackaged as a Simaudio stand-alone preamp/processor, and sold for 15 times the price.

This should make interesting fodder for the trademark, copyright, and licensing lawyers. I can hear Simaudio arguing that they weren't really competing with Denon because their price was 15 times higher!

There are often posts asking why there seem to be plenty of expensive "high-end" amplifiers and 2-channel analog preamps available, but no "high-end" digital AV preamp/processors on the market. The answer is clear – developing an AV pre/pro requires R&D and plenty of money – something beyond the capabilities of most if not all the small "high-end" audio electronic manufacturers.

This should be required reading for anyone who insists they want such a product instead of using a "pedestrian" AVR as a pre/pro .

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Or you can get the real deal and get the fabulous Denon AVP processor or newer Marantz ones for a fraction of the cost.

Another good option, and it even has a "pre-amp only mode" which disables the built in amplifiers. They should call that the Simaudio switch

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The pre-amp mode only disconnects the amps from pre-out signal but, does not power them off. So, the AVR is not truly in pre-pro mode. Seems rather obvious thing to disconnect amp section power with a relay toggled by the pre-pro mode setting. Wonder why they didn't do it?

I registered an account just to share a review on stereophile about a simaudio integrared amp where the measurement section were very disappointing as the results were way off the spec. A guy commented questioning about the quality of that amp given the very high price it was asking for. (More than 10 grand i believe) but it seems like they deleted all of the comments as i couldnt find them anywhere. If i have that kind of money, simaudio is the first one i will run away.

I registered an account just to share a review on stereophile about a simaudio integrared amp where the measurement section were very disappointing as the results were way off the spec. A guy commented questioning about the quality of that amp given the very high price it was asking for. (More than 10 grand i believe) but it seems like they deleted all of the comments as i couldnt find them anywhere. If i have that kind of money, simaudio is the first one i will run away.

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As you're new to the audioholics forums, I don't think the link that you wanted to post went through. Is this it?