I have a question for those who do the bitework with their dogs. Is your typical ring/Sch training something that translates well to an actual threatening situation? If, for example, someone came up behind you and pushed you down and you dropped the leash, would a well-trained sport dog turn and attack the attacker, sustain the attack for as long as was necessary and then release when the bad guy stopped fighting, all on his own?

(I know this is a bit O/T, but its just a bit of curiosity. Didn't think it needed its own thread.)

That completely depends on the dog itself. I'll use Tweedle-Dee & Tweedle-Dumb (aka Grant & Harry). My dogs were trained in the same club, on the same decoys.

Grant is a very equipment focused dog. He thinks it's all a big game of tug with a man in a fun tug suit. They put on that fun suit just to play with him. Yay, Grant! Grant would never be able to do stuff like PSA, because he won't go after a hidden sleeve. He will only bite the big, puffy suit, because that isn't a person. If you try to send him on somebody in hidden equipment, or none at all, he gives you this look like you've been smoking crack, and refuses to do it.

Harry, OTOH, was wanting to eat the bad guy even as a little pup. He would spit out the leg sleeve that he had just won, then stare down or start lunging at the now equipmentless decoy. Harry bites the suit because they happen to be wearing it. I have no doubt that he would take a real bite. I need to work him on hidden equipment more and do some muzzle work to make sure. He's mature enough to handle it mentally, now.

Could I make Grant into a dog that would bite for real? Probably, but it would be tough, and probably not make him happy at all. Grant has true, classic bulldog temperament, and has no desire to hurt a human being at all. I don't need that, nor do I want it in a bulldog. That's what Malinois are for

Good examples Aimee. There is actually only one hidden sleeve exercise in PSA, you could probably train him through that one. PSA is a lot of fun because it is patternless.

Connor almost got a live bite when we were working security together. I found some kids breaking into a vendor tent and we had a merry little chase. Had I not been paying attention when the kid wiped out infront of us, he would have been bitten. But that's what security dogs are supposed to do. He has also done hidden sleeve work and "Russian Bite Suit" work (looks like a big down jacket) with no problem.

Equipment fixation is a big problem for many sport trained dogs. Dogs trained on sleeves will sometimes not bite anything but a sleeve and will run around the decoy looking for a sleeve to bite. If the decoy doesn't have a sleeve the dog doesn't know what to do.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

mnp13 wrote:Good examples Aimee. There is actually only one hidden sleeve exercise in PSA, you could probably train him through that one. PSA is a lot of fun because it is patternless.

I wish I had more access to it. I found out there is a club a few hours south of me, so hopefully I can hit a few trials when Harry is older. Not sure that I'll try anything with Grant. Is there much jumping in PSA? He has slipping hocks, and doesn't like to jump. So, rather than break him down young, I don't make him do it.

Connor almost got a live bite when we were working security together. I found some kids breaking into a vendor tent and we had a merry little chase. Had I not been paying attention when the kid wiped out infront of us, he would have been bitten. But that's what security dogs are supposed to do.

Harry says that's a sad story, and he's very sorry that Connor didn't get to bite the little brats.

Equipment fixation is a big problem for many sport trained dogs. Dogs trained on sleeves will sometimes not bite anything but a sleeve and will run around the decoy looking for a sleeve to bite. If the decoy doesn't have a sleeve the dog doesn't know what to do.

I think a lot of it is naturally in the dog's head, too. I've seen so many dogs with the same trainers and same decoys come away very differently. There is a GSD in our club that will run over and bite a suit on the ground while a decoy attempts to work her in a civil manner. She could be brought through it, but not all of the dogs act like that. Grant does, Harry doesn't.

odnarb wrote:I wish I had more access to it. I found out there is a club a few hours south of me, so hopefully I can hit a few trials when Harry is older. Not sure that I'll try anything with Grant. Is there much jumping in PSA? He has slipping hocks, and doesn't like to jump. So, rather than break him down young, I don't make him do it.

What happened to his hocks? (ok, we'll take that to another thread )

I don't think there is jumping in the PDC or the PSA 1. At nationals there were a few older dogs and their handlers opted out of the jumps and took minor point deductions for it. If it is a physical problem they are more lenient than if the dog just doesn't want to jump or wasn't trained correctly.

odnarb wrote:Harry says that's a sad story, and he's very sorry that Connor didn't get to bite the little brats.

The head of security was less than happy with me actually. I guess he had a point though - biting a kid over a bottle of expensive hand cream is kinda silly. However, the kid shouldn't have been there in the first place, and really shouldn't have run when I caught him. Connor thought it was great fun!

odnarb wrote:I think a lot of it is naturally in the dog's head, too. I've seen so many dogs with the same trainers and same decoys come away very differently. There is a GSD in our club that will run over and bite a suit on the ground while a decoy attempts to work her in a civil manner. She could be brought through it, but not all of the dogs act like that. Grant does, Harry doesn't.

They do what they are comfortable with. That's why there are lots of suits and other equipment all over PSA fields. It checks for equipment fixation.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

Romanwild wrote:Can a dog differentiate between real danger and training? More specifically could a dog like Grant do what he has to when in a real situation even though he is equipment focused when training?

Who knows?

That's always a tough one, because you CAN'T simulate a real attack in training. In a real attack, there is fear, adrenalin, and reactions that you can never replicate. In our little "mock" attacks in training, Grant seemed pretty excited that Mom got to wrestle with the fun guys in suits, too, and didn't do a damned thing but dance around like an idiot.

I'm not worried about Harry protecting me if it were necessary. While he hasn't done much hidden equip and muzzle work, he's got the head for it, and he's a bit overportective of his mom. Grant? I'd not want to depend on him

“PSA 1” This is the entry-levelprotection title, where the dog mustdemonstrate a combination of on and offleash control in pre-determinedobedience and protection routines. Therewill be no jumping obstacles in thisdivision, during protection or obedience,and no call-off exercises are required.

you could do the PDC, PSA 1 novice and PSA 1 open with him. You'll just have to get him over the hidden sleeve in the car jacking senario.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

I think ANY dog is capable of protecting its' owner. I think there are different things that play a role, though. The major thing is bond. I see so many people in the sport world (I'm a member of PSA and DVG) whose dogs are kennel dogs (or crate dogs)...they are brought out to work...ONLY to work. There are other people in the sport world whose dogs are pets...the dogs sleep in their owner's beds....

My lab may never do well in sport (I don't try to fool myself). But if push came to shove (literally), I think she would defend me because she's my pet. She adores me, and she knows I adore her. She's not just there to win me titles....I have taken her out for walks, and if there's someone she is suspicious of (and this is only a select few), I have actually noticed that she'll drop her head between her shoulders (almost like a GSD does before it attacks)...One night there were a bunch of teens hanging out on my front lawn making noise, etc. I took her out, and she started barking and carrying on (and this wasn't her friendly "come play with me" bark)...

As far as my mal puppy goes: She is also a pet....I plan on doing sport with her, but I've also told my trainer that I'd like to also do civil stuff with her (so that she will protect me if the need arises).

I don't know...this is just my opinion...don't know if it's right or wrong...

I have no doubt that Oscar would back me up if I were attacked by someone. I have NEVER seen he overreact, and I have seen him come to help me, once, when I called him and needed it, and again, his actions were exactly what they needed to be, no overkill.
Leave him outside tied up?(no, I don't do that anymore) He'll greet anyone. He barks at knocks on the door but would never bite someone who entered, he also barks at strangers who touch the car. He'll greet anyone with me, and he'll walk away with almost anyone. If I'm wrestling with my boyfriend and I get irritated, or if I sound hurt (like if I cuss when I stub my toe), he'll come over to investigate. If I were really in trouble he would act, and I like that.
He has the most amazing "judgement" so to speak. He knows I'll protect him, and he'll do the same for me. Like Katiek said, we have a bond.

First of all that the threat should not even get one finger on you. You should put your dog in a position that he or she can always protect you. If by any chance it happens PP dogs are train that you come first and the prey item can't get away until you are safe, even if it stands still(freeze-up). When get to a safe place then you call off the dog or when you have total control of the situtation.(gun to face)lol...