Samuel* Jhn 21:22,23,24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

Where does it say that John wrote the gospel of John?Ruben The person who who wrote John is writing here. Peter looks at him and sees him walking and asks a Question. So it has to be one of the 11.

Samuel* For Matthew and Mark I depend on first Century writers.

That my friend is "Tradition". a dirty word for you:) Ruben

Actually no. Listen. I have never said all traditions are bad. I say Traditions that do not contridict the bible are fine. As long as you do not judge others by your traditions. It is placing tradition above Scripture that I oppose.

Samuel* Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. Jhn 21:23,24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

Where does it say that John wrote the gospel of John? As you admitted that the Gospel of Matthew and Mark no where tell us, it the same with the Gospel of John.

Most of the practices of the SDA are based on man-made traditions emanating from EGW. ---Cluny

Like What? Sabbath comes from the Ten Commandments and the Example of JESUS and the Apostles. Sola Scriptora from other Protestants and Scripture. State of the dead from Scripture. I can keep going on. But tell me which practice or doctrine in our church is based on the writings of EGW?

Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. Jhn 21:23,24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life,

For Matthew and Mark I depend on first Century writers. I may also disagree with some doctrines of a scholar and yet still accept his testimony on a matter of authorship. I do not have to agree with everything they wrote.

Can you tell me where the writing of these Apostles are: Andrew,Philip,Bartholomew, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother.Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus and Thaddaeus, Simon and Judas. While you are at it, please tell me who wrote the Gospel of Matthew,Mark and John? Ruben

Matthew the Tax collector wrote the book of Matthew. Mark the apprentice of Peter wrote the book of Mark. John was written by John the Apostle brother of James. He also wrote 1,2,and 3 John as well as Revelations. None of the writings of the other Apostles were ever found. This was first determined by Scholars and church leaders in the second and third century. Then recognized by a Council.

Can you tell me where the writing of these Apostles are: Andrew,Philip,Bartholomew, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother.Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus and Thaddaeus, Simon and Judas. After all Jesus told them to "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"(MT 28:20) While you are at it, please tell me who wrote the Gospel of Matthew,Mark and John?

Scriptures also refer to extra biblical traditions as being authoritative. Yes, there are Scriptures which denounce man-made traditions, but uphold Scriptures, and the oral holy traditions of the Ancient Jews and the Apostles that was preserved by their successors.Ignatius

I am glad you agree about man made traditions.

You have not shown me the Jewish traditions you mention. I do not find the blog. Holy Traditions is not found in the New Testament according to my word search.

You have presented one scripture. 2Th 3:6 Now this says traditions received from the Apostles. Their traditions are found in the New Testament and the Old Testament. Many of your traditions came about after the death of the Apostles.

You speak of those preserved by their successors. There are two sets of traditions that each claims this same authority, the Orthodox and the RCC. How do I choose which one is correct? Why is tradition a higher authority then Scripture?

Some of these traditions came hundreds of years later. Not written by those who knew the Apostles.

In matter fact, oral Tradition came first, then the writing of Scriptures. The word of God was spoken long before any Scripture was pen down. Ignatius

In the New Testament Paul started writing early and the Gospels were all finished in the First century. So the Oral is very short duration. The Apostles wrote down first hand experiences In what could be as little as ten years.

What authority do you have for just 27 books in the NT other than tradition? Cluny

The apostles wrote the Scriptures of the New Testament.

My justification is that the scholars and early church leaders choose books that could only have been written by the Apostles. I agree with them as do all the scholars I have read. The false gospels were rejected beacause they could not have been written by the Apostles. Also the contridicted the Gospels. We agree on the 27 books of the New Testament.

The Spetuagent writers added books that they thought were good. But Jewish scholars rejected them as scripture. Modern Scholars agree they are not scripture. My Bible's Old Testmanet matches the Tanak of which I have two copies.

Scriptures also refer to extra bibical traditions as being authoritative. But you ignore those Scriptures. And yes, there are Scriptures which denounce man-made traditions, but uphold Scriptures, and the oral holy traditions of the Ancient Jews and the Apostles that was preserved by their successors. Who have denied this, Mr. Samuel?

In matter fact, oral Tradition came first, then the writing of Scriptures. The word of God was spoken long before any Scripture was pen down.

"Chapter and Verse please"

I have given it you many times, but you never answered back.Go read what I posted in the Martin Luther's Reformation blog. Will you finally respond to them or run like usual?

Is tradition is scripture than you have a very large Bible. Scripture refers to the Bible. But by your answer you show that you have other writings equal to the bible. In effect you make them above the Bible.

That is because we can not verified such a doctrine through Scriptures. The fact remains that both Christ and the Apostles appeal to extra biblical traditions as being the word of God. Ignatius

Chapter and verse please Samuel Now I can present scripture verses that say scripture is above tradition. If I present them will you answwer the scripture referece or ignore it?

Lack of Knowledge.God's Word is inspired by Him-down to each letter.Letters of any given [word form] are themsleves, read as wordsEvery ancient Hebrew word is an equation "function dynamics" underlying each letter.

Greco-roman influence and translations into time related vs. action - loses some meaning. Exsample the Genesis is Greek-not ancient Hebrew and it's meaning is [generation, creation.However the actual Ancient Hebrew word is Bereshiyt-which means in-beginning.We are very capable of learning the orginal-beginning form.We are told...In the beginning, was the Word....We can either believe it or not.

Whenever someone tries to give me a new and different Bible, I decline telling them I do not need some other Bible when I already have a good one which has proven to save souls. And I have looked into the newer "so-called" Bibles and they are Not Holy nor as good as the translation which I already have.

2 TIMOTHY 4:3 For a time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, But according to their own desires,because they have itching ears, they will heap up themselves teachers, and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Orthodoxy preached the ENTIRE word of God, not the water down versions found in Protestantism.

We do not believe in traditions of men, such as Sola Scriptura. The word of God says otherwise. Ignatius

I totally disagree. I do not attend the Orthodox church but I know that you have placed tradtion above scripture. YOur opposition to the Supramacy of Scripture which is the doctrine of Sola Scriptora. By stating you oppose it you place tradition above scrpture as the final authority. Also as a Seventh day Advetist. I challenge you to show where the average orthodox lives by a sticter Bible code.

It is not my ideas that I hold up. I hold up the word of GOD as being above all. When I confront the devil I follow the example of JESUS and answer it is Written. Not well my church tradition is.

I apprectiate Cluny your defence of your beliefs. But I cannot agree with your assesment. I wish I could say that every Seventh day Adventist church was filled with perfect people who only stood for the truth. But my church is full of people. People are messy do not always do what is right and do not always keep their eyes on JESUS.

Just walk into any Orthodox Church, and not only will you hear the full Word of God preached without compromise, fear, or favor, but you will see the worship of the true Church offered as is pleasing to God.

On the other hand, if you hold up yourself and your own ideas as the true standard of sound doctrine, you're going to be disappointed.

so, do you want a "BIBLICAL" devotion or a devotion to THE WORD? do you want to go to 'bible heaven' or WORD HEAVEN? more_excellent_way

I want to follow JESUS. But to follow the true JESUS I have to follow the Bible. Today are many who follow their own version of JESUS or men who says they are JESUS.

How do we tell the true from the false? JESUS answered the devil by saying it is written. The apostles answered their opponets by appealing to the Bible.

You see the devil does not want us to follow or trust the Bible. He wants us to follow anything but the Bible. He will settle if we follow part of the bible like his quoting scripture to get JESUS to do something wrong. For the Bible testifies of JESUS.

probably because it is easier,(something we all look for)to let the pastor do the studying, than dig it out for ourselves, some church goers don't even take a bible with them. Check your pastor to see if what he is saying lines up.Acts 17:11... searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

After 1960 years, it's finally time that Godlovers get their head together (remember the "Incident at Antioch?, look it up at Wikipedia).

Don't care about the 'will of the bible', care about the WILL OF GOD. "The Word" became FLESH, NOT TEXT, and it also lived among us. When loved, "the Word" can also love us back. The Word hung on the cross (and also shed blood AND WATER...LIVING water). "The Word" is the ONLY spiritual authority...

Matthew 28:18"ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and earth has been given to me".

I think a lot of pastors don't want make people uncomfortable, thinking that if they are around christians that it will rub off on the people living in sin and they might come to Christ, but I think preachers are to give them the law of God which doesn't happen for the most part.

firstly, in this format, it is impossible to communicate everything that we need. "we" in context of what i was saying meant 'adults'.

but as far as the innocence of children...

are you a parent? from a distance, children seem innocent. but, there is a reason why we are to train up our children and children are told to obey their parents.

innocent and undefiled are two different things. children are not innocent on their own. look in the malls, the schools, the grocery stores. one of the greatest tools for the evil one was to take parenting away from parents.

aka-- of course "saved" people can be deceived. The Bible speaks of it often. It was "we cannot be deceived unless we have deceit in us"that I questioned. Surely not all deceived persons are themselves deceitful.

But I suppose that those who regularly practice deception are always expecting the same from others.

2 + scripture means using two or more scriptures to verify a matter. They are GOD's,Broadcasting witnesses for truth. Takes trav out of the equation. Trav can point to two or more...they do the talking.For instance if 20 prophets say the same thing.....it establishes a precept you make be studying about.If Christ,lives,aludes to, or says a thing that all the prophets said prior.....you have an answer. From GOD.

Take any two prophets precepts over any supposed authority today that doesn't adhere to them....you'll be two ahead...always.

aka, If I may add my 2cents worth here ,how I perceive Phil.2.9-11. God is rewarding His Son for obedience, giving Him a superior position.(which would not be possible were He Almighty God)Since he is the "Son" of YHVH but not equal Phil.2.6.for want of a better term a lesser God!Not Angelic, not human,(but divine)The Father has entrusted all authority to Him, so that "every knee should bend". Absolutely no conflict with the Father nor is the Father's position usurped!

scott, you and i had a conversation a few months ago. there is no pressing need, for me, to repeat myself. it will end up in the same place, which is the essence of insanity.

i compliment you, and you call it sarcasm. i agree with cliff, and you accuse me. (i never said that all religions that deny Jesus Christ are cults. there are some cults that believe in the HS). Yet, you took issue with me.

My defense and belief is of Jesus Christ of whose deity you can continue to dismantle and mock me. however, you claim to have a superior understanding of the Bible and even quote it. so, please, explain to me Php 2:9-11 witnessed in Isa 45:23.

On another thread where I challenged your mishandling of the Hebrew plural for Elohim you said:

>"you gotta know when to hold em' (don't give pearls to swine)." aka

Sure you don't want to hang on to your pearls of wisdom for someone more deserving?

The answer to your question about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is of course yes to both.

Now, unless you can defend your claim regarding the plural noun from the other thread and answer the question here regarding the 'fulness of deity' than I encourage you to save your pearls for someone that will not take a closer look at them to determine whether or not they are simply shiny little rocks.

scott's quote of scripture directed towards aka... "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:16 ---scott on 2/21/11

scott, do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and in the existence of the Holy Spirit? yes or no to both will do.

trav, since you decided to jump in, a straight up answer from you would be good. do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and in the existence of the Holy Spirit?

Mat 5:37 Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No', anything more than this comes from evil.

If Catholics are the main group being deceived...then, yes, the pope would do nicely. If the group started out as primarily Baptist, they might listen to someone like Chas. Stanley. If Evangelicals, then it would be some well known, doctrinally sound Evangelical leader.

I'm talking about the difficulty of influencing anunaffiliated group or group leader who neither recognizes nor submits to, any authority other than themselves.

aka-- Just a minor question: I didn't understand. What did you mean by "however, we cannot be deceived unless we have deceit in us."?Little children can be deceived by anybody because of their innocence.

"There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:16 ---scott on 2/21/11

Not siding with either here, don't know what u guys are even blogging...but, this scripture above stands out for this blog site. In that OT prophets are rarely sought....by the preacheri-est peachers here. (Donna won't like that made up a couple of words...forgive).

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Soooooo...what's the answer to the question? Or does your sarcasm perhaps reveal that you don't have one?

When you (attempt to) employ God's word to deride 'heretical creeping cults' you should be able to defend your application of those inspired texts. If not you run the risk of being categorized along with those described by Peter:

"There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:16

Who will appoint your authority? Pope? Swaggarts? Here is the thing....people similar and related to all you mentioned, killed the most authoritative powerful man in the world....and his designated followers. Speak out....use scripture 2+ always. When they absolutely will not have a Prophet/Apostle/Christ...dustfeet.If one seems to be in power/authority and has a personality equal to Solomons...run. The authority? What authority? GOD's? Where? Seen it enforced lately?

Most people know what is sound doctrine and teaching. Sound doctrine and teaching is whatever God says.But they do not want it. It would mean a CHANGE OF LIFE.Giving us certain activitiesGiving up certain foods and drinksGiving up 10%Giving up Saturdays to GodGiving up jewelry and make upGiving up certain sexual relationshipsThey want to hear that what they are doing is OK, they reject the truth because they have itching ears

trav-- It goes without saying that a Christian who finds himself in a doctrinally wayward group, should stand for Biblical truth, warning those in error..

But that's not my point. You may go your way, feeling righteous as a "watchman", while a budding cult continues to grow.

Unless you are a known and respected authority (or have some financial influence), who is going to listen to you?

I am pointing out the dangers of a group that is totally unaccountable.

That's how some one-man TV ministries, where a single man wields all the power, go off track doctrinally, but continue to flourish. As longas he can influence listeners and donors, he contines, unchecked, to mislead.

The danger is, if the leader has charisma (but no theological training)and feels inspired to make a doctrine out of some obscure scripture...

Who will be able to step in and prevent formation of a cult? ---Donna66 on 2/18/11

The individual steps out. You cannot be held accountable as a watchmen if they do not listen to the warning.Two or more scriptural witnesses in the form of Prophets,Apostles...Christ himself free one from all doctrines of men.Jeremiah 6:17Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.Guard your own soul....you'll be standing alone.....not as a group.

Candace -- The "home" churches you describe sound ideal in every way."If you stick with scripture... without adding church standards traditions,policies"You may eliminate these, but without trying, you will develop your own in time.

There isn't a Christian church anywhere, or Christian cult, that doesn't claim to "stick with the scriptures only". But there is w-i-d-e latitude. The danger is, if the leader has charisma (but no theological training)and feels inspired to make a doctrine out of some obscure scripture...

Even if you see the error, not everyone will .If your church is unaffiliated and unaccountable, Who will be able to step in and prevent formation of a cult?

1st cliff, the artwork are not pagan characters, especially when the artist clearly names his own artwork after the names of the Biblical characters. For example, If I draw or scuplt or paint an image of Jesus Christ holding a shepherd's staff among a flock of sheep, and name my masterpiece, "Christ The Good Shepherd", then that is it's name, and another person cannot come later and misname my artwork as zoraster or hermes or some other, for that is wrong-authorship and misapplication and falsehood. And for the halo around the heads of the saints, this shows God's glory resting upon the person, even as Moses' face shone long before any artist painted this glory, Ex.34:29-35.

Most congregations in the world are leaning toward the "itching ears" portion of the teachings where they donot want to hear sound doctrine. As far as true doctrine there are people starting to have homechurches & you donot need to go to seminary school to be an elder. you can have biblestudies in the home with neighbours etc. the bible says "Where two or more are gathered,there I will be" As far as qualifications for an elder the bible tells us. If you stick with scripture only without adding church standereds or traditions,policies...there is a true church (the people)

the churches of today for the most part have become social clubs, they don't preach about the blood or the cross, the pastors tickle the peoples ears give them a feel good sermon and off they go home. The name of Jesus is rarely spoken in the pulpit anymore neither is the Holy Spirit taught to the people and you cant teach someone how to talk in tongues this comes from the filling of the Holy Spirit , i could go on and on but Jesus is my best friend i don't put my faith or trust in mankind.

I agree. We have also allowed heretical cults to creep in which deny the diety of Jesus Christ.

Col 2:8-10 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

oh yeah...which Christ?

Col 2:6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

Paganism has crept in to "Christendom" unnoticed by the masses. IE. Christian "Icons" depicting Jesus, Mary, Joseph etc.. have a halo (nimbus) shown behind their heads representing the "sun" a hold over from Zoroastrianism, Mary with blond hair and blue eyes is actually Diana (Gr. goddess.) Statues of Peter are actually Zeus ..etc.. How can they preach "truth?"

\\Listen you, get you Holy Bibles and read and pray and preach from them, here, Geneva 1560 A.D. but exclude the apocrypha, here, KJV 1611, or here, Tyndale's 1532 or 1534.\\

The two most commonly available recensions of the KJV are those of 1769 (Great Britain) and 1904 (Amiercan Bible Society normalized according to American spellings). If you want the KJV of 1611, there are two things:

1. There very few editions of it. Thomas Nelson is the only one I think think of off the top of my head that has it.

What has worked for me, I'd say, is to first offer myself to God, in order for Him to make me honest with Him and submissive to Him so He can connect me with really Christian people. And His qualified leaders obey 1 Peter 5:3 >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

It's not just about getting people who say the right things, but getting to know real example leaders so they can show us how to be real with God and relate in love for any and all people.

Are you speaking about your own personal search or about the lack of truth in the BOC?

One truth I have found in my wife and I search for a church is we need to be open to go where ever the Spirit says to go. Let me give an example.

We recently visited a church. On their website, their statement of faith was acceptable, we had heard the pastor speak before and we liked his message, but we found the church to be in a very dark and dangerous part of our city. Many homeless people, drug addicts wandering around the area. Many "believers" told us that we should stay away from that area. But we found the HS moving us by telling us "that is where the most help is needed".

Rob, I hear you. Most churches teach watered down word. I went to a church and all the Pastor preached about was the building fund. Then I went to another one and the title of the teaching was, "Put your feet in the water." To this day, I did not understand how that was related to a biblical teaching. I would encourage you to buy Sid Roth's 2007 One New Man Conferernce DVD set, it's a really powerful. Also, Global Awakening has their yearly prophetic conference...they're POWERFUL teachings on them. And of course there's the Holy Ghost, our Great teacher, but I realize sometimes we need to HEAR the word from someone else sometimes. I know the Holy Spirit is our great teacher, but I love sitting under very anointed word.

Because people have become apostate. They have substituted the Holy Bible for unholy bibles, and replaced the truth of God for a lie. "Foolish people, Throw out your unholy bibles, and away you sinners from my people, all you blind guides repent now, else I come quickly and remove your candlestick, and the memory of you will be no more, says the Lord. Listen you, get you Holy Bibles and read and pray and preach from them, here, Geneva 1560 A.D. but exclude the apocrypha, here, KJV 1611, or here, Tyndale's 1532 or 1534. And Men take the pulpit, be sanctified and be holy, and women listen to the men for I have set him to be your head, says the Lortd."

It is hard but not impossible. First you must study the Word and be grounded in the truth yourself, then search diligently. As to why it is so hard: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, haveing itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4: 3 - 4

Because people have become apostate. They have substituted the Holy Bible for unholy bibles, and replaced the truth of God for a lie. "Foolish people, Throw out your unholy bibles, and away you sinners from my people, all you blind guides repent now, else I come quickly and remove your candlestick, and the memory of you will be no more, says the Lord. Listen you, get you Holy Bibles and read and pray and preach from them, here, Geneva 1560 A.D. but exclude the apocrypha, here, KJV 1611, or here, Tyndale's 1532 or 1534. And Men take the pulpit, be sanctified and be holy, and women listen to the men for I have set him to be your head, says the Lord."