You speak about money and economy while your own country is on the brink of economic collapse

There is one proof that Kiev leadership is mad. For example leaders of western countries when they talk they talk very calm , very hesitant , even though they live in rich countries. But when you listen Poroshenko , one gets the impression like he is a leader of USA , and not one country which is in total mess.

We have gas from Slovakia now. So, it`s ok, don`t worry.

Yes. Ukraine is not in a good condition today, but at least we have our dignity.

I can`t remember the last time I watched Porochenko speaking. Don`t know what you`re talking about.

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I don't know what is going on with you ukrainians , maybe it is because you want to rise your moral , but we all live in total mess , and we are not in war currently , but when you talk about your country it seems like you are the riches and strongest country on the globe

some bla-bla-bla, dont understand anything. Give me a quote.

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As for Donbas it will be in status quo for decades. Russia will not give up , because it will be the end. If Donbas becaome part of ukraine , ukraine can become Nato member. Russia can not allow that to happen. If there is some sane russian elite (and I hope there is) , it will stop Nato expansion on the East.

And again some bla-bla-bla. You have no idea what will happened in the future. putin may die tomorrow, what then?

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As for Crimea . its over , you know it. This status quo will make ukraine more and more weak. Time do not work for you , it work for russia. Gass and oil prices are going up , russia become more and more involved in international trade of food and weapons , russian made deal with turks with turkish stream , russians made deal with germans with north stream 2 , and ukraine got nothing. Just empty promises.

What? Why would Crime make Ukraine weak?
I thought I already explained it, but secially for you I will repeat:
Crimea can`t survive as a island. Read about the Canal . Today it`s empty. The situation is geting worse and worse. Soon there will be no water in Crimea. This is the reason putin wanted to occupied Mariupol. Not this BS about "save Russians", it`s all about to have a free entrance to crimea without building a bridge.
You all are fools. You support this madness.

Thanks to CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, MSNBC, the New York Times and all the rest, I don't have the slightest clue what demons are driving the various factions I hear about, what their loyalties are, what their goals are, or what viable political entities might arise from the strife and chaos of war over there. We must make sense of it, as much as possible, and without opening fire on each other in the process.

Post what you know about the Ukraine, what you hear, what you might speculate about the various factions and their leadership. The idea of this thread is to provide a broad view of Ukraine, and hopefully with some depth and insight, the better to foster our understanding of these momentous times in Eastern Europe.

Also, it's always "nobody's business" when compatriots and other people, on the outside, have an opinion that's anti-Kiev-Junta. Western Ukrainians hate on Free Speech.

The Ukraine was nothing but disorganized farmers when Oleg of Novgorod moved the capital to Kiev and laid the foundations of Kievan Rus. It was still just farmers when Vladimir the Great ruled those lands and married into royal lines in Byzantium. The Ruthenians were still digging dirt.

The Ukraine was ruled by the Austrians, Polish-Lithuanians, Russians, and Germans. Every time they tried to rule themselves it was total fail and it's failing again - even with foreigners in their "sovereign" government and a Georgian criminal governing Odessa. If Russia took it's money out of the Ukrainian banks, it would be worse than Afghanistan.

Also, they like destroying Lenin monuments in Ukraine but if they want to eliminate everything Russian, they will need to bulldoze the whole country.

It wasn't the Jews that Bandera wanted to kill, it was Russians. The only reason Ukrainians collaborated with Hitler was to start their own country. In the end, they wanted the Nazis to leave Ukraine.

The US and EU made a huge mistake by supporting Bandera. Yeah, Yanukovich was corrupt but he was the democratically elected leader and the Maidan was an illegal coup - paid for by the US and EU. They were torching police and snipers were killing both sides to escalate the violence. The US and EU warned Yanukovich not to take action against the Maidan then they gave Poroschenko tons of money to commit genocide.

Yeah, and without all the bloodshed and genocide. If Putin didn't agree to accept Crimea and Sevastopol, it would be as bloody as the Donbass. The people in Crimea and Sevastopol wanted to live, not die. Ashes of Odessa. Never forget! Never forgive!

Btw, Khrushchev did NOT have the authority, under the CCCP government, to give Crimea and Sevastopol to Ukraine. He did it to get his Ukrainian wife all happy but it WAS NOT legal in the CCCP.

Autonomous oblast, autonomous okrug, Republic of... How many autonomous regions are in Russia? Lots! How many in the Ukraine? Zero!
Because Donetsk and Lugansk wanted autonomy, the Kiev Junta killed thousands of people.

The Ukrainian Bandera is not pro-White. They kill thousands of White people in the Donbass. They are only pro-Ukrainian.

"My advise = Avoid western Ukraine unless you like being robbed, mugged, arrested, tortured, or murdered. White foreigners are not safe in Ukraine. They even support Tatars."

Derekz, this is complete fabrication on your part. I personally travel in Eastern Europe many times a year. I travel to Ukraine at least twice a year and stay 3 weeks each time I go.

Western Ukraine is a safe as any place I have traveled for a white English speaking guy such as myself. The people here are very warm and friendly for the most part. I have been invited and have attended many people's homes. Even though many Ukrainians don't have much economically, they always presented a wonderful meal.

The food is great the drink is plenty and the hosts are gracious, I am honoured to call many Ukrainians friend! Many of the people I have met in western Ukraine take excellent care of their guests regardless of financial ability. I have never encountered such kindness.

It saddens me about the conflict in eastern Ukraine, the sooner a resolution the better. This is a war of brother fighting brother and it sickens me.

This entire thread is a flame war, nothing productive will come of this here thread, except more reprisal and resentment towards Ukrainians and Russians.

First of all, when we speak about USSR, we don`t speak only about Russians. We speak about all the Nationalities who were in the USSR.

I see putinists here love to glorify communists, and their crimes!
Do you know that commie USSR occupied Koenigsberg and Kuril Islands ? I`m not surprised you approve it, but what the hell are you doing on the White Nationalists forum? Get out! there is no place for such scum here!

More irrelevant minutia. Oh, Russia "gave" 3 square miles of land to China! (Which is a miniscule amount, probably in return for something else, if it's true to begin with).

Oh, Russians have money problems! What about your own, bankrupt nation? Your problems are much, much worse, because Ukraine is an utterly corrupt, failed nation.

Russia conquered German lands after Germans brutally attacked it, which proves that waging a war against Russia is a very bad idea.

Russians have defeated Germany. They have defeated Georgia. And they have defeated Ukraine.

You are not getting the disputed land back!

Calling me names won't help either. It just proves how completely devoid of arguments and logic you nonsensical posts are.

"My advise = Avoid western Ukraine unless you like being robbed, mugged, arrested, tortured, or murdered. White foreigners are not safe in Ukraine. They even support Tatars."

Derekz, this is complete fabrication on your part. I personally travel in Eastern Europe many times a year. I travel to Ukraine at least twice a year and stay 3 weeks each time I go.

Western Ukraine is a safe as any place I have traveled for a white English speaking guy such as myself. The people here are very warm and friendly for the most part. I have been invited and have attended many people's homes. Even though many Ukrainians don't have much economically, they always presented a wonderful meal.

The food is great the drink is plenty and the hosts are gracious, I am honoured to call many Ukrainians friend! Many of the people I have met in western Ukraine take excellent care of their guests regardless of financial ability. I have never encountered such kindness.

I am thinking you are not Russian or Ukrainian and that you had reservations. My bad. So maybe I should be more specific.
Correction = For Russians and Ukrainians who live outside of Ukraine it is not safe. My friends that are ethnic Ukrainian but live in the USA visited Ukraine. They passed Romanian border (Not Pridnestrovie) and paid to not be arrested. They wanted to see Kiev and a mob wouldn't let them pass till they gave money. The police did nothing. They ask questions and nobody answers.

So maybe the western tourist has a red carpet but nobody from that region. All Ukrainians and Russians are suspects except Bandera.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

It saddens me about the conflict in eastern Ukraine, the sooner a resolution the better. This is a war of brother fighting brother and it sickens me.

This entire thread is a flame war, nothing productive will come of this here thread, except more reprisal and resentment towards Ukrainians and Russians.

Peace be with you bothers and try to mend the hatred.

There will always be flames in Ukraine thread - like Odessa.
The woman in Omsk can't visit Ukrainian relatives and the one in Yekaterinburg wants to give Russia to the Ukraine. Only the dude in Oryol knows that the only solution is Federalization of Ukraine and my friend in Donetsk may already be dead. He stopped posting.

So yeah, a lot of anger and hurt.
When the Tatars sabotaged the power lines to Crimea, Kiev did nothing. And they are using Tatars in Crimea and Sevastopol to stir up unrest. Those are facts not fabrications.

Burning unarmed Russians alive in Odessa and beating the victims with sticks was also facts. I saw the videos. Again the Junta police did nothing except arrest the victims - another documented fact.

Notice that these are Western media sources. You won't find any links here to Rossiyskaya gazeta, Komsomolskaya Pravda, Krasnaya Zvezda, Izvestia, Moskovsky Komsomolets, or even Sputnik or Russia Today.

I don't expect many westerners to believe them so I don't post them here.
If you need more links to support my "fabrications" just ask. I have a seriously huge list.
To understand all the Ukrainian fails to rule itself, just read history.

But I admit that Kadyrov could stop letting Chechens fight in the Donbass and the USA could stop training rebels to send into other countries.

I am thinking you are not Russian or Ukrainian and that you had reservations. My bad. So maybe I should be more specific.
Correction = For Russians and Ukrainians who live outside of Ukraine it is not safe. My friends that are ethnic Ukrainian but live in the USA visited Ukraine. They passed Romanian border (Not Pridnestrovie) and paid to not be arrested. They wanted to see Kiev and a mob wouldn't let them pass till they gave money. The police did nothing. They ask questions and nobody answers.

So maybe the western tourist has a red carpet but nobody from that region. All Ukrainians and Russians are suspects except Bandera.

There will always be flames in Ukraine thread - like Odessa.
The woman in Omsk can't visit Ukrainian relatives and the one in Yekaterinburg wants to give Russia to the Ukraine. Only the dude in Oryol knows that the only solution is Federalization of Ukraine and my friend in Donetsk may already be dead. He stopped posting.

So yeah, a lot of anger and hurt.
When the Tatars sabotaged the power lines to Crimea, Kiev did nothing. And they are using Tatars in Crimea and Sevastopol to stir up unrest. Those are facts not fabrications.

Burning unarmed Russians alive in Odessa and beating the victims with sticks was also facts. I saw the videos. Again the Junta police did nothing except arrest the victims - another documented fact.

Notice that these are Western media sources. You won't find any links here to Rossiyskaya gazeta, Komsomolskaya Pravda, Krasnaya Zvezda, Izvestia, Moskovsky Komsomolets, or even Sputnik or Russia Today.

I don't expect many westerners to believe them so I don't post them here.
If you need more links to support my "fabrications" just ask. I have a seriously huge list.
To understand all the Ukrainian fails to rule itself, just read history.

But I admit that Kadyrov could stop letting Chechens fight in the Donbass and the USA could stop training rebels to send into other countries.

Yes I am a westerner and no I don't use reservations, I stay generally with friends, same as when I travel in Russia, I stay with a couple of Russian friends I have. So no red carpet.

And yes I agree there is corruption in the country, but there is also corruption in Russia as well. It seems in some instances there's nothing money can't fix if one has a problem.

As far a citing various information regarding what Ukrainians have and have not done, the same can be said about Russians. And I'm sure just as this thread has proven can go on and on forever, but I'm not going to get into any of that as it's redundant to do so an non productive as both sides are so passionate as to why the others doing what it has done and continues to do.

Russia needs to respect Ukraines sovereignty, and if Crimea and the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk want to separate and hold true free and transparent elections, then Ukraine must respect that.

Other than that this has been a complete political cluster [email protected]€k to say the least.

Perhaps Ukraine should of maintained the nuclear arsenal it had inherited from the fall of the former Soviet Union to maintain its sovereignty.

I don't have the answers and don't claim too. But it seems to me at times no one uses any intelligence when discussing this. It's seems just to resort to name calling and he said she said argumentative format.

Yes I am a westerner and no I don't use reservations, I stay generally with friends, same as when I travel in Russia, I stay with a couple of Russian friends I have. So no red carpet.

That's the red carpet and reservations. Where you have friends you are safe and treated well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

And yes I agree there is corruption in the country, but there is also corruption in Russia as well. It seems in some instances there's nothing money can't fix if one has a problem.

Agreed. Every country has it's own corruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

As far a citing various information regarding what Ukrainians have and have not done, the same can be said about Russians. And I'm sure just as this thread has proven can go on and on forever, but I'm not going to get into any of that as it's redundant to do so an non productive as both sides are so passionate as to why the others doing what it has done and continues to do.

I see both. I also knew that the first leader in Donetsk was playing the black market and only wanted money. I know they also invaded other parts of Ukraine - like Mariupol - for land grabs. And I know that Putin wanted Crimea and Sevastopol for security reasons. I have seen both sides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

Russia needs to respect Ukraines sovereignty, and if Crimea and the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk want to separate and hold true free and transparent elections, then Ukraine must respect that.

Both sides should respect self-determination of those regions but Putin, the State Duma, and the Federation Council will never give up Crimea or Sevastapol. But I think everyone is seriously unhappy about the long war in the Donbass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

Other than that this has been a complete political cluster [email protected]€k to say the least.

Words like "cluster f**k" and "whatever"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

Perhaps Ukraine should of maintained the nuclear arsenal it had inherited from the fall of the former Soviet Union to maintain its sovereignty.

I hope that's a joke. There's already way too many nukes on the planet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

I don't have the answers and don't claim too. But it seems to me at times no one uses any intelligence when discussing this. It's seems just to resort to name calling and he said she said argumentative format.

And we all know where that gets us.

Only destruction and death. Both sides need to accept the Minsk Agreements and end the violence.
I can never change up how I feel about the Ukraine but it's only the size of Texas and the Donbass is very tiny. When the disaster happened I hoped that all the ethnic Russian-Ukrainians would just move to Russia. I decided that exile trumped genocide and that's what I posted at the Russian forums. Other Russians agreed with my views. Diplomacy is the only solution.

That's the red carpet and reservations. Where you have friends you are safe and treated well.

Agreed. Every country has it's own corruption.

I see both. I also knew that the first leader in Donetsk was playing the black market and only wanted money. I know they also invaded other parts of Ukraine - like Mariupol - for land grabs. And I know that Putin wanted Crimea and Sevastopol for security reasons. I have seen both sides.

Both sides should respect self-determination of those regions but Putin, the State Duma, and the Federation Council will never give up Crimea or Sevastapol. But I think everyone is seriously unhappy about the long war in the Donbass.

Words like "cluster f**k" and "whatever"...

I hope that's a joke. There's already way too many nukes on the planet.

Only destruction and death. Both sides need to accept the Minsk Agreements and end the violence.
I can never change up how I feel about the Ukraine but it's only the size of Texas and the Donbass is very tiny. When the disaster happened I hoped that all the ethnic Russian-Ukrainians would just move to Russia. I decided that exile trumped genocide and that's what I posted at the Russian forums. Other Russians agreed with my views. Diplomacy is the only solution.

Derekz have you ever been to Ukraine? Also it's not "the Ukraine" and if you had Ukrainian friends you would simply know that.

Also if you do not like my wording of things, perhaps it best you don't read it then!

Other than that I agree with much of your post, and really don't currently have the time at the moment to go into detail, work calls.

Derekz have you ever been to Ukraine? Also it's not "the Ukraine" and if you had Ukrainian friends you would simply know that.

Yes and eastern Russia too. I bought my 2015 Transformers wall calendar there and a Geiger counter in Odessa. I wanted to see how much radiation was crossing the ocean from Fukushima.

And no, I would never say "the Ukraine" to them or call them Khokhly. But sometimes I say those words when I discuss the issues with other people but not in real life - only online.
One of my Ukrainian friends lives in my neighborhood. He's tons friendlier than most Ukrainians and we share music and books and hang out.

Btw, Ukraine means borderland. The word was invented by the Russian oligarchs to label the western border of Kievan Rus. That's why it was always called THE Ukraine (the borderland). Well, mostly Ukrainians just want to call it Ukraine but the meaning is still the same.
Why would English ever say "I went to borderland"? It always labels nouns with "A" or "the" or some other word. There's always another word before you say nouns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj1973

Also if you do not like my wording of things, perhaps it best you don't read it then!

Other than that I agree with much of your post, and really don't currently have the time at the moment to go into detail, work calls.

Have a good day.

The wording was only confusing. It's like sparkles in the eyes and can't see.
Okay. Breakfast calls. Have a good day.