Just a question I have had recently due to a rather...."vigorous" student of Aikido.

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, so seeing as how I need more practice how can I protect myself from being injured?

How does one respectfully and politely decline to being Uke for practice?

Should I sacrifice my safety for traditional courtesy?

Pauliina Lievonen

06-13-2010, 08:29 PM

Safety always, always comes first. Unless you and your partner have explicitly agreed otherwise. If you feel that nage is too rough, just tell them "please go easier on me, I'm a beginner/having a slow day/injured/still working on the ukemi for this technique".

If this is not ok at your dojo, personally I wouldn't want to train there. Sure, sometimes it's necessary to work outside one's comfort zone - but pushing of your limits should be done by people you trust and who know how far to go safely.

kvaak
Pauliina

Marie Noelle Fequiere

06-13-2010, 08:43 PM

Safety is the number one priority for any qualified martial art instructor. You should have every right to ask your training partner to tone it down a bit. Seek Sensei's advice. If he seems not to care too much, you might need to seek another dojo.
But really, most of the time, just speaking up is enough. Don't be so shy! ;)

Abasan

06-13-2010, 09:39 PM

Uke's right is to be treated with respect.
Uke's duty is to attack sincerely and protect himself.
Nage's duty is to blend with the attack, protect himself and protect uke.

In any paired exercise, the Senior belt is responsible for the Junior belt. It doesn't relieve the junior from his responsibilities, just emphasises to the Senior not to lose control of the situation irrespective of his position as uke or nage.

NagaBaba

06-13-2010, 09:50 PM

Safety always, always comes first.

kvaak
Pauliina
I think it is not such simple subject. Aikido is a Budo practice, not some kind of healthy gymnastic....

Walter Martindale

06-13-2010, 11:16 PM

It's not a simple question - it's a martial art where we're learning, ultimately, ways to hurt people. HOWEVER - we're learning it with a bunch of people who are trying to learn the same stuff, and if we hurt our training partners while we're training with them, a) we're fair game for them or for other tough-guys to beat on when it's their turn, and b) hurt too many partners and we won't have people with whom to train...

It is a martial art - you're going to expect some injuries sometimes, but because it's non-competitive, they shouldn't occur as often as in (say) judo.

ALL of the shihan to whom I've been exposed (over the years, and varying amounts: Yukio Kawahara, Akira Tohei, Seijuro Masuda, Moriteru Ueshiba (only once), Nobuo Takase) say it's the responsibility of aikido people to protect their training partners - they say(said) it in one form or another.

The person who's going at a pace a little faster than your ready to handle needs to be asked to tone it down while you learn how to handle it, but you also need to pay closer attention to protecting yourself from damage...

raul rodrigo

06-13-2010, 11:41 PM

It's hard to say who is at fault. Sometimes I get an uke whose body is so tense that they unwittingly put their elbows or other body parts at risk. But given that, then it's my job to make sure that they're not hurt while still preserving the essence of the technique. As one Japanese teacher told us: you break uke today, no uke tomorrow.

Eva Antonia

06-14-2010, 04:33 AM

Hi,

I just wanted to say so much - in my dojo (and in all others where I have trained at a guest or during a seminar), the teacher always advises us to go easy with beginners, and it would certainly have some consequences if an advanced aikidoka insisted on going rough on someone who is not yet able to take ukemi well. We always ask a newcomer or beginner if he is comfortable with ukemi on this or that technique, and if he says no or hesitates then we just slow down and let him do a soft backwards roll or whatever.

This said, there is still the possibility to get hurt by your own awkward movements, but that is your own risk.

Best regards,

Ev

Pauliina Lievonen

06-14-2010, 05:17 AM

I think it is not such simple subject. Aikido is a Budo practice, not some kind of healthy gymnastic....I agree. That's why my second sentence was: "Unless you and your partner have explicitly agreed otherwise. "

There are times when it's appropriate to practice more intensely and possibly less safely. But both partners have to agree that it's time to do that! It didn't sound like that was the case here.

kvaak
Pauliina

NagaBaba

06-14-2010, 12:50 PM

I agree. That's why my second sentence was: "Unless you and your partner have explicitly agreed otherwise. "
kvaak
Pauliina
This sounds like concept 'fair play" or 'gentlemen agreement'. I have strong impression those terms are totally absent in the concept of Japanese Budo.

Garth Jones

06-14-2010, 02:11 PM

This sounds like concept 'fair play" or 'gentlemen agreement'. I have strong impression those terms are totally absent in the concept of Japanese Budo.

So what is your answer to the OP's question?

Certainly we can train with maximum effort all the time and throw without regard to uke's skill. The Japanese military trained their fighter pilots with that kind of intensity before and at the very beginning of WWII, for example. The training was so intense that something like 80-90% washed out and there were injuries and deaths. The few that survived were some of the best pilots ever to get in a cockpit. Our military is a bit less harsh on their special forces recruits but there is still a high fail and injury rate.

We could run an aikido dojo that way, but I don't think it would be in business very long and it better have an awesome liability policy.

All of the Japanese instructors I have studied with over more than two decades of aikido have taken safety in training seriously and have not tolerated throwing people way past their ability to protect themselves. They have often come up to the edge and gone past it a bit - that's how we get better - but regular injuries are not acceptable.

Anyway, back to the OP's question - Daniel - ask the person who threw you or your sensei about it. It's their job to teach ukemi as well as waza so if you ask them how to take the fall so it doesn't over stress your elbow (or any other part) they may well have an answer.

Cheers,
Garth

ninjaqutie

06-14-2010, 04:32 PM

I think you should train to the level of the lowest ranking person. Since you are new, your partner should put things back into first gear and go at a pace you are comfortable with and are capable of taking safe (and proper) ukemi. Simply asking them to slow down may fix this problem. If that doesn't work, next time you need a partner, be proactive and snag up someone else.

I think it is also important to note that this person may not have tried to hit you with their elbow. Ukemi often isn't natural and you could have moved in what seemed like an instinctual and safe way, when in actuality you put yourself in a position to get clocked. Ukemi is all about fluidity of movement and body placement.

As far as declining to be uke for practice... not sure if that can be done. You are nage half the time and uke half the time. You can't just do one and not the other. If on the other hand you mean, "Can I decline taking ukemi with this person?" Again, I don't think that is fair. Either ask them to slow down or work with someone else. If the problem persists, talk to your sensei after class.

danj

06-15-2010, 11:40 PM

Hi Daniel,
Its a little while since i have practiced with you on the mat and I am sure you have made good progress in the mean time. My suggestions are
1/ Don't allow your elbow to be locked out..not ever ever - especially if you have a propensity for hyper extension
2/ Only attack at a pace and intensity that you are comfortable to receive
3/ Use aiki and ride nage's technique, if you are only 1mm and a fraction of a second in front of the impending devastation its enough to keep you safe and learn a lot about aiki in the process.

These things should allow you to practice with all but the most insensitive of uke, with whom you practice good ma-ai skills when looking for a partner

best,
dan

Janet Rosen

06-16-2010, 10:11 AM

With beginners I'm always on the lookout for the rigid, locked elbow and reminding them to soften it up to avoid injury AND so they can actually feel what is happening to them.

Andrew Macdonald

06-16-2010, 10:49 AM

in my opinion, yes Aikido is a budo and should test us during practice, but the test should be at a fair level.

being an uke shouldn't be a comfortable experience, if it is we are not really learning anything. but if the nage is pushing to fast too soon, or doesn't have the experience to gauge the level of his uke correctly he simply needs to be asked/told to calm down alittle

Chuck Clark

06-16-2010, 10:55 AM

Budo begins and ends with respect. Accidents happen to be sure, but if we train/teach in ways that do harm to each other, the level of training gets "dumbed down" so that real skill is impossible. We will only get good at finding people that we can "beat" (hurt) in order to succeed. Budo training is not that... shinken shobu is harmful and is sometimes necessary to survive and then we have to be responsible and live with the consequences.

Real budo training teaches us how to do our best to keep others from harming us while doing as little harm as possible. We should never be lazy and settle for what may seem the easy way. Training should scare the crap out of us... until it doesn't... but our goals should always be to uplift our fellow beings. Easy to say, for sure, but very difficult to do. We must do our best. If you can't understand /do this... broaden your search for a teacher.

Best regards,

ninjaqutie

06-17-2010, 12:33 PM

2/ Only attack at a pace and intensity that you are comfortable to receive

This is a good point. Remember that the harder you attack, the more momentum you are giving your partner. Depending on the skill of your partner, they may not be able to slow it down. Attack at a slower pace and maybe the technique will slow down to accomodate this.

Basia Halliop

06-17-2010, 01:34 PM

I would just ask him to go easier on you as you're finding it hard to keep up. It's usually not a big deal. Most people are not out to injure someone and most people are perfectly willing to try to adapt to beginners or injuries or whatever.

This sounds like concept 'fair play" or 'gentlemen agreement'. I have strong impression those terms are totally absent in the concept of Japanese Budo.

Possibly... was it the samurai or someone else who practiced by killing peasants? Or is that a myth? In any case, whether it's 'traditional' or not is not really the point -- the point is what's ethical, and sorry but if tradition and ethics are in conflict, ethics wins. How you're going to treat your practice partner depends on what they've agreed to... sometimes the agreement is explicit and you've literally discussed it, other times it's implicit based on conventions that are assumed to be understood by both partners... But if there's no consent, it's some kind of assault...

Of course, that's a general concept and I don't know exactly how it applies in this situation. The 'harsh nage' may feel that his uke _has_ agreed to that kind of training by bowing and stepping up, or if that's the way the dojo as a whole trains (even with new people) he may even feel that uke has agreed by joining the dojo.

Or more probably, nage might simply not realize he's hurting his uke and going further than uke wants to go -- he may be misjudging uke's level of ukemi or flexibility or uke's attitude or whatever... common enough... I'd start by just asking the guy to be gentler or slower or whatever and see what happens from there.

lbb

06-17-2010, 01:46 PM

Hi Daniel,
Its a little while since i have practiced with you on the mat and I am sure you have made good progress in the mean time. My suggestions are
1/ Don't allow your elbow to be locked out..not ever ever - especially if you have a propensity for hyper extension
2/ Only attack at a pace and intensity that you are comfortable to receive
3/ Use aiki and ride nage's technique, if you are only 1mm and a fraction of a second in front of the impending devastation its enough to keep you safe and learn a lot about aiki in the process.

1 and 3 may be hard to pull off for a beginner -- easy to say "don't let them do that" to a beginner, not so easy for a beginner to do, and "use aiki and ride nage's technique" is a concept that few beginners can explain, let alone execute. But 2 is something that a beginner should be able to put into practice immediately: don't attack at a speed or intensity that you wouldn't be comfortable receiving -- or, as my sensei once said to one of my partners who took a full-speed, full-force swing at my head with a jo less than five minutes after he'd picked up the weapon for the very first time, "Don't dish it out until you can take it." If your partner is sufficiently advanced, they may be able to go with your attack and be quite gentle on you, but if not, there's a good chance that they'll react with equivalent speed and force out of sheer necessity -- and you're going to be on the receiving end of that. If you pick up the pace, that's the pace you're going to have to march to.

Just goes to show once again that there is no "one" art that is Aikido. In My Aikido, I specifically train how Not to hurt people, successfully.

Not jumping on you, just making a point.

Uke has the right for whatever training agreement that is made between participants, to be honored fully.

Marc Abrams

06-17-2010, 03:38 PM

This sounds like concept 'fair play" or 'gentlemen agreement'. I have strong impression those terms are totally absent in the concept of Japanese Budo.

Szczepan:

I think that you are simply confusing bujutsu with budo. If you and I are practicing together and I gouge your eye out while you are standing up, is that Japanese Budo? I think not. There should always be a "gentlemen agreement" when people are practicing together. I am curious as to what your idea of Japanese Budo is in regards to this matter and who taught you that idea. We should always be aware of our surrounding and we should always display and expect respect from our training partners. Anything less than that prevents people from pushing their training to the limits of safety. Even in modern bujutsu practice, there are limits that must be kept so that people remain safe (as opposed to injured, maimed or killed). There is a very fine line in hard training and the respect between partners is what allows us to continue to push the envelope of our abilities.

Marc Abrams

cguzik

06-17-2010, 10:05 PM

I prefer the context of partners' responsibilities when training, as opposed to their rights.

Walter Martindale

06-17-2010, 11:16 PM

Just goes to show once again that there is no "one" art that is Aikido. In My Aikido, I specifically train how Not to hurt people, successfully.

Not jumping on you, just making a point.

Uke has the right for whatever training agreement that is made between participants, to be honored fully.

Understood, and later in my note I think I point out that within the confines of the training session in the dojo, we train to not hurt our partners, as well as to not get hurt by our partners.

However, at most, if not all, of the dojo I've trained in, the instruction includes "atemi" points - parts of the technique or movement where hurt and even harm can be done.

One former sensei of mine tells of a former student being attacked by someone armed with a switchblade. After disarming the person with a kotegaeshi - tanto-dori, and with the person lying on his back in front of him, apparently the aikido student folded the knife, dropped it on the attacker's chest, and said something like "I did that wrong, attack me again please" with the response that the guy pushed the (folded) knife off his chest, got up, and ran away.

I've had other sensei and shihan say that if you're attacked by someone armed, and you manage to survive and actually gain some control, it's going to get brutal while you disarm the person - and yes, he (usually he) did, after all, attack you with a weapon.

I get the philosophy of escalating the response only if necessary - I have no desire to hurt anyone, so I'll use "jaw, jaw" before using "war, war" (I think Churchill said something like that), but if necessary, cause pain. If necessary, cause damage. If necessary, cause severe injury. If necessary... well... I'd rather not go there...

But - in the dojo - we work together so that we can both learn and so that we can explore our limits - just on the edge of our abilities. Beginners' abilities to tolerate and anticipate movements are less developed, so we move more slowly, more deliberately, and let them take ukemi at their pace. After all, they need to go back to work or their families after training...

I'm only a relatively recently graded nidan, but getting kinda old, so my movements are a little more deliberate than others; I can take more punishment than most beginners without getting hurt, and other nidans, shodans, sandans etc, can usually take it, too, without getting hurt - but we work to the level of our training partner. At 56, I'm not about to go looking for a street fight or a bar fight (never have, actually), but if one comes to me I hope to be able to exert enough control to come out without too many deep wounds, and without having harmed anyone, too....

Walter

NagaBaba

06-18-2010, 09:50 AM

Szczepan:

I think that you are simply confusing bujutsu with budo. If you and I are practicing together and I gouge your eye out while you are standing up, is that Japanese Budo? I think not. There should always be a "gentlemen agreement" when people are practicing together. I am curious as to what your idea of Japanese Budo is in regards to this matter and who taught you that idea. We should always be aware of our surrounding and we should always display and expect respect from our training partners. Anything less than that prevents people from pushing their training to the limits of safety. Even in modern bujutsu practice, there are limits that must be kept so that people remain safe (as opposed to injured, maimed or killed). There is a very fine line in hard training and the respect between partners is what allows us to continue to push the envelope of our abilities.

Marc Abrams

Hi Mark,
I believe the duality bujutsu/budo is rather recent western concept. I think for Japanese martial artist is all the same as inherited from their culture. I like Clark idea "Real budo training teaches us how to do our best to keep others from harming us while doing as little harm as possible". As aikido develops compassion for attacker, the etiquette becomes the central point for dojo behavior.

However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.

The art is how to have constructive practice together without feeling completely safe(for uke AND tori!!! ). I think there is no simple answer for that.

I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.

O sensei advised we practice EVERY technique like the LAST technique in our life, like it is a technique that will decide between life and death. This is the only criteria that differentiate Budo from Sport Fighting. How would you preserve such spirit of practice knowing that practice is safe? – It will be impossible. That is why you can see so many sloppy attacks – they have no real, martial meaning – it became the mimics and parody of the attacks.

That is why you can see so many sloppy aikido techniques, no martial spirit at all, most people simply don’t care. They know whatever they do, attacker will fall down every time, and everybody around will tap their shoulder saying: “well done, Johnny, well done!!! And the Ego will grow bigger and bigger, more politics, more disagreements....…this way the ultimate goal of Founder will never be realized.

NagaBaba

06-18-2010, 10:10 AM

Possibly... was it the samurai or someone else who practiced by killing peasants? Or is that a myth? In any case, whether it's 'traditional' or not is not really the point -- the point is what's ethical, and sorry but if tradition and ethics are in conflict, ethics wins. .

It has nothing to do with ethic and tradition in my opinion. In the moment of EVERY attack you - as a nage - are in situation life or death (if you follow O sensei idea). In such situation you are supposed to develop compassion for attacker. It means first you may defend your life, OR if compassion is bigger than your desire to continue your life, you scarify your life.

In the scenario when you chose to defend your life – how come you can imagine that it can be 100% safe for you or for your attacker? As Chuck Clark said we are trying to do as less harm as possible for attacker, because of compassion, but other than that, we can’t guarantee much more….

C. David Henderson

06-18-2010, 10:36 AM

Hi Mark,

However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.

Excellent, thoughtful post, and a very important point, in my view.

If I feel too safe, the interaction seems to diminish in value accordingly for training. On the other hand I don't read this as advocating a breach in dojo etiquette, but rather providing a sliding scale for defining the balance between safe and effective practice.

Thank you for your insight.

Regards.

Chuck Clark

06-18-2010, 11:50 AM

The dojo should be a "dilemma rich environment" to be sure, but that is also why "budo begins and ends in respect" and we must always take care of our partner. Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei told me that after you make rei as you enter the training area "you should be in a state of life and death seriousness" until you make rei as you leave the dojo. It is the teacher's responsibility to ensure that the proper levels of balance are correct.

RED

06-18-2010, 11:56 AM

What are uke's rights?

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, ?

Are you sure it isn't due to a low level nage? I mean, I can't see anyone who knows what they are doing repeatedly hurting an uke.. even a first day on the mat uke. Nage has to be sensitive and train to their uke's level..I mean, it's Aikido. We sort of specialize in not injuring our attackers here! So if nage hurts you, nage is at fault.
Personally, I've never been hut by a dan rank... the lower the rank, the more it hurts to train with them. It is almost proportional in my experience.

Personally, you have the right to bow respectfully out on anyone you feel is repeatedly going to injure you. It isn't rude, if they give you grief take it up with your sensei. You have a right not to have your Aikido career cut short because of mindless injury.

Marc Abrams

06-18-2010, 12:29 PM

Hi Mark,
I believe the duality bujutsu/budo is rather recent western concept. I think for Japanese martial artist is all the same as inherited from their culture. I like Clark idea "Real budo training teaches us how to do our best to keep others from harming us while doing as little harm as possible". As aikido develops compassion for attacker, the etiquette becomes the central point for dojo behavior.

However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.

The art is how to have constructive practice together without feeling completely safe(for uke AND tori!!! ). I think there is no simple answer for that.

I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.

O sensei advised we practice EVERY technique like the LAST technique in our life, like it is a technique that will decide between life and death. This is the only criteria that differentiate Budo from Sport Fighting. How would you preserve such spirit of practice knowing that practice is safe? -- It will be impossible. That is why you can see so many sloppy attacks -- they have no real, martial meaning -- it became the mimics and parody of the attacks.

That is why you can see so many sloppy aikido techniques, no martial spirit at all, most people simply don't care. They know whatever they do, attacker will fall down every time, and everybody around will tap their shoulder saying: "well done, Johnny, well done!!! And the Ego will grow bigger and bigger, more politics, more disagreements....…this way the ultimate goal of Founder will never be realized.

Szczepan:

I just back from training in Japan again (with Ushiro Sensei). The distinction between budo and bujutsu is really their distinction. The level and nature of the distinction for them is real and openly talked about. I absolutely agree with the rest of what you are talking about. Unrealistic attacks and a collusive training atmosphere only results in a delusional product for all involved. The sincerity of nage and uke that you speak of (and Chuck Clark Sensei so eloquently describes) still involves some degree of gentlemen agreement in that I am trusting you to know how and when to stop when you are in the role of uke. Likewise, the nage should have trust that my attack will be sincere and push the nage to the limits. On the flip side of unrealistic attacks and collusive ukes, there are well-know examples of sadistic teachers who have taken advantage of the trust and intentionally injured students. I have personally observed that and have been at the receiving end of practice with people who were simply looking to injure the uke. Finding the right balance is critical in order to truly advance one's level of budo.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Rabih Shanshiry

06-18-2010, 12:35 PM

I have personally ...been at the receiving end of practice with people who were simply looking to injure the uke.

Marc,

How did you handle that situation?

Were you actually injured?

Would you train with that person as nage again?

...rab

lbb

06-18-2010, 12:42 PM

However, taking all this in consideration, aikidoka must not take for granted that practice must be safe. This is the worst error that has the most important consequences in approach for aikido as an art, but also the consequences are in the way how everyone practices physically on the tatami daily.

Agreed. However...

The art is how to have constructive practice together without feeling completely safe(for uke AND tori!!! ). I think there is no simple answer for that.

I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.

Is it "constructive practice" if someone goes to the hospital every day? You obviously scorn what you call the "gentlemen's agreement", but do you really agree that if you make a mistake, your partner not only may, but should inflict maximum damage on you?

Marc Abrams

06-18-2010, 01:48 PM

Marc,

How did you handle that situation?

Were you actually injured?

Would you train with that person as nage again?

...rab

Rabih:

The last time that this happened was last September at a seminar taught by my instructor. The clown suddenly went neanderthal on a katate-kosa-tori, ikkyo irimi. Even allowing my body to go instantly horizontal, I did receive a grade 1, shoulder separation and may need surgery in November. My teacher was looking directly at me when I got up. I simply grabbed him with the other arm and when he tried to do that again, I grounded him out and asked him why he was pushing me away from him, suggesting that he try the technique in another manner. This person was an instructor from another school in the area. Granted, I was not 100% alert, which is why I did not go horizontal quick enough, the simple fact was that this was an intentional act that was totally out of character with the situation.

My response would have been different many of years ago. I truly believe that Aikido has made me a better person. I did not feel the need for retribution and kept my center.

Rabih Shanshiry

06-18-2010, 02:29 PM

My response would have been different many of years ago. I truly believe that Aikido has made me a better person. I did not feel the need for retribution and kept my center.

That's impressive. I'm sure I would have at least given him the hairy eyeball and asked him what his problem was.

Hope the shoulder heals up on its own.

...rab

Basia Halliop

06-18-2010, 03:54 PM

I believe "gentlemen agreement" idea is responsible for watering down aikido last few years. Because of such idea, martial context is completely absent in aikido practice as we can see in most aikido videos on YT.

OK, I'm starting to see somewhat more what you're arguing for, I think... but still, even if making things 'too safe-feeling' is a problem, I don't believe what you've described actually contradicts anything I or some others are saying about consent... And it's equally possible for two people (or more) to have an understanding that they're NOT going to try to make each other feel safe or trust each other.

RED

06-18-2010, 04:14 PM

I stick by the concept of training to the weakest partners ability. If you are both san dans and in great shape...have at it. But if you are an in shape san dan with a portly 2nd kyu, take it easy.

Shadowfax

06-18-2010, 07:56 PM

Any time I feel uncomfortable working with someone I make sure to talk to my sensei about it. Its happened to me a couple of times.

Sometimes he helps me adjust myself and sometimes he helps by adjusting said partner. But somehow once I have made him aware of the problem it , ceases to be a problem. I've made a point to make sure to work with those people as much as I can until I am no longer uncomfortable with them. Usually they are the ones you learn from the most. And eventually you might find that you look forward to and really enjoy working with them.

eyrie

06-19-2010, 01:20 AM

Frankie Dunn: You forgot the rule. Now, what is the rule?
Maggie Fitzgerald: Keep my left up?
Frankie Dunn: Is to protect yourself at all times. Now, what is the rule?
Maggie Fitzgerald: Protect myself at all times.
Frankie Dunn: Good. Good.

Million Dollar Baby (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405159/)

Andrew Macdonald

06-19-2010, 09:50 PM

if i can just as an off the wall question

does any one here train tomiki style? does that style suffer from the same problem?

L. Camejo

06-21-2010, 03:55 PM

if i can just as an off the wall question

does any one here train tomiki style? does that style suffer from the same problem?
Not so much from my experience.

Safety is a prime and critical factor in all training whether it be Kata or Randori. All students are taught to be very aware of their surroundings and be an active participant in maintaining ones own safety through zanshin, sensitivity and ukemi.

This awareness is trained from day 1 since in shiai or full resistance randori if one is not aware of ones body in space and the potential for damage it can result in injury if one is training with an "eager beaver". The speed of striking and techniques here is very high so the potential for injury is great if one is asleep mentally.

Many of the techniques in shiai however have been modified to minimize the potential for severe injury when in a heated match and any execution of waza in a manner that can seriously injure can cause one to lose a match outright so it makes sense for one to protect the other person while still working on executing effective waza.

So as said earlier, Uke has the responsibility to keep himself safe, just as Tori has the responsibility to execute waza in a safe manner as much as humanly possible.

Just some thoughts.

LC

Andrew Macdonald

06-22-2010, 01:23 AM

i have no experience and very little knowledge of tomiki style but i do know from studying competitive martial arts that that people ego can be easier kept in check sometimes (and of course can be great inflated sometimes) and an over zealous nage would soon find himself learning a very hard lesson about training levels

L. Camejo

06-22-2010, 09:51 AM

i have no experience and very little knowledge of tomiki style but i do know from studying competitive martial arts that that people ego can be easier kept in check sometimes (and of course can be great inflated sometimes) and an over zealous nage would soon find himself learning a very hard lesson about training levelsQuite true. Resistance and competition training usually keeps folks humble as one is very realistic when judging ones actual capabilities.

However there will always be those who need repeated lessons before the point gets across and the rate of any injury can be directly related to that person's unwillingness to relax, stop fighting and just train.

Best

LC

DonMagee

06-22-2010, 02:03 PM

I ask them if they are looking to drill or spar. I have no problem with their attitude if they want to spar. If they say they want to drill I remind them that the next time they decide to crank on me like I'm an in-animate object, we will be proceeding to sparing without any warning.

Of course I don't advise this avenue of thought for beginners.

Rob Watson

06-22-2010, 02:14 PM

The dojo should be a "dilemma rich environment"

Sweet. I also like the line from one of Ellis Amdurs books (memory fails me here) and I'll just paraphrase 'we must try to kill each other but not hurt each other' ... another great dilemma. Total koan that is best solved by simply trying ones best to make it real while retaining sanity and decorum.

In my book uke has the right to make me look like a fool for having such lame technique and expect my gratitude in return.

I have not seen that many injuries but every time when a senior was injured by a junior it was the senior being thrown into something/place dangerous that the senior could have prevented (this is a lack of awareness). When a junior is injured by a senior it is the senior going at a level the junior could not reasonably handle (also a lack of awareness). both situations fall onto the senior as the responsible party.

Randathamane

07-01-2010, 11:17 AM

What are uke's rights?

Just a question I have had recently due to a rather...."vigorous" student of Aikido.

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, so seeing as how I need more practice how can I protect myself from being injured?

How does one respectfully and politely decline to being Uke for practice?

Should I sacrifice my safety for traditional courtesy?

Uke has the right to walk off the mat without injury after practice. Tori/ Nage should adapt their technique to suit the level of uke. Failure to do this shows not only a lack of respect for uke, but lack of understanding of the dangers of technique and lack of control.

One does not need to respectfully ask tori/Nage to slow down, you have the right to demand it. If this is not respected, i would instantly leave. No bowing, just walk off and get changed. Show respect to get respect. No show, no give. Simple.

Never sacrifice your safety for traditional courtesy. You can always apologize for apparent rudeness and justify yourself with "you are intentionally hurting me". Tthere is no defence to this statement.
If your arm is broken however, what happens then? I've had jobs in the past where an injury like that means i can't go to work.

sakumeikan

07-01-2010, 03:29 PM

What are uke's rights?

Just a question I have had recently due to a rather...."vigorous" student of Aikido.

I almost received a elbow injury from said nage, and I think it's from my lower level ukemi, so seeing as how I need more practice how can I protect myself from being injured?

How does one respectfully and politely decline to being Uke for practice?

Should I sacrifice my safety for traditional courtesy?
If you feel that 1,Your ukemi is inadequate then brush up on Ukemi.
2.If you think it was accidental make allowances for the odd mistake.
3. If you think you are being deliberately abused , warn the guy and if he /she does not alter his /her methods , simply put ,
chin him.
I have personally had the same scenario years ago with a young Japanese guy who could dish it out but was not too happy when I replied in kind.We nearly came to blows on the tatami.Only the intervention of the class leader stopped a violent incident.
No body has a right to maim you intentionally.Accidents can happen , deliberate maiming is something else.
Cheers, Joe.