10/12/2019

Reading the news is, as the common saying goes, like drinking from a firehose.

I want to note that Shep Smith is out at Fox News — by his own choice to be sure, but mainly because the network didn’t support him and truth, against the Trumpist degenerates who garner the Trumpy praise at the rallies:

But I think the piece worth highlighting today is from the Wall Street Journal editorial board, who, like Matt Drudge (have you seen the Drudge Report lately?), appears to have had it with the dunce cap model in the Oval:

Jennifer Griffin of Fox News reports that Mr. Trump was supposed to tell Mr. Erdogan to stay north of the border. When the Turkish bully made his threats, Mr. Trump could have said that the U.S. military controls the air above the region and would respond to protect the Kurds and U.S. soldiers. Ms. Griffin reports that Mr. Trump instead “went off script” during the call and agreed to stay out of Turkey’s way.

One of the most tragic and dangerous deviations from script in memory.

How this will play out isn’t clear, but the early signs are troubling. Mr. Trump claimed Mr. Erdogan would take control of the more than 10,000 Islamic State prisoners under Kurdish control, but a senior adviser to Mr. Erdogan told CNN this week that Turkey “never said” it would “shoulder the burden” of holding the prisoners.

Watch out if the Kurds stop holding the prisoners as they flee the invading Turks. The ISIS fighters could break free to rejoin the estimated 15,000 jihadists who haven’t been killed or captured. They could hoist their flag again over territory in Syria or Iraq.

The rather eye-opening conclusion of the editors?

As Commander in Chief, Mr. Trump has been mostly tactical and rarely strategic. He shifts positions from week to week, even day to day, for the sake of a summit or short-term appearances. Allies are informed about his reversals after the fact and left to wonder if they can still rely on the United States of America.

As Mr. Trump runs for re-election, this habit of impulsive judgment will be front-and-center. As an incumbent he should be the safer presidential choice. But Mr. Trump’s judgment can be so reckless that many voters who took a risk on him the first time will ask if he’s worth a second gamble when he would no longer be disciplined by having to face the voters again. Impeachment won’t defeat Donald Trump in 2020, but Donald Trump might.

The real fear is that Trump’s legacy won’t be merely the installment of angry and scary Elizabeth Warren, but the flipping of the Senate. If Dems don’t manage to flip three or four seats, Fauxcahontas has zero chance of implementing her frightening war on success. But that’s not guaranteed.

Republicans made a very, very big mistake picking Donald Trump in 2016. A historic mistake. Anyone could have beaten Hillary Clinton. No other Republican would have been this reckless. Our electorate is terrible, and the choices voters face in 2020 are untenable, barring a miracle by Biden — who is barely tenable (for four years max; thank goodness he’s old) only by comparison to the monument to idiocracy currently occupying 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Your best case scenario is that by some miracle we get Biden? Biden is a weaker candidate now than Hillary was is ‘16 and you say any R could have defeated her. Why not argue for a miracle that gives you an R candidate you can stomach?

has he been a fool or a knave, if he was the former he would have gotten something right occasionally by the law of averages, alright I’ll give him the legislation behind the drug czar, but fisa, vawa, supporting the sham of salt 2, the nuclear freeze, suggests otherwise,

by his own choice to be sure, but mainly because the network didn’t support him and truth

Doesn’t CA have a labeling rule for stuff that can cause cancer in lab rats? In general Fox News is moderate at best and Shep is a bit too progressive for anything less than maybe MSNBC which is probably where he’s going.

@11 I will be an amazing thing to see. Scores of R and independent voters flooding into the arms of D’s because they’ve decided abortion, globalism, the SJW agenda of the hour, and free stuff are now great and self defense, private property, free speech, free markets, and religion are as bad as D’s have been saying for years. The D’s have made this a sure thing by putting up politicians at the national level that are paragons of virtue and honesty.

@12. Shades of Olbermann ejecting from MSNBC. No-compete contract clause- routine w/media departure packages– so he’ll be off air for awhile. Not sure if that crosses over to radio/print/web mediums but for television, he’ll be ‘on the beach’ for a fair span– no face time, which in TeeVee is a near death sentence. Memories are short and younger faces always at the ready.

His inconsistent and rapidly shifting positions in the Middle East have injected a new element of chaos into an already volatile region and have left allies guessing where the United States stands and for how long. ….

This was just the latest in a series of flip-flops in American policy in the region, including two in Syria this year alone. In December, Mr. Trump promised to withdraw the entire contingent of about 2000 American forces there. But he later changed his mind, withdrawing about half.

He has repeatedly warned that the United States was “locked and loaded” for military action against Iran. But when Iran shot down an American surveillance drone this summer, Mr. Trump reversed himself in the final minutes to call off a planned missile strike.

Then last month, he denounced Iran for orchestrating an attack on Saudi oil facilities but declined to take military action. His hesitance made America’s two most important allies in the region, Saudi Arabia and Israel, reassess the American commitment to the containment of Iran and, consequently, to their own security.

Trump’s threats are all hat and no cattle. If you don’t intend to us force, don’t make threats.

well there is that, but Erdogan along with the emir of Qatar and the Saudi old gard, was sponsoring islamist militias in Syria, in Libya, (recall the Turkish mission in Benghazi was one of the last appointments that ambassador stevens had) also he supports hamas through the flotilla,

@19. Ahhh, but then there’s a curious historical stat listed in the final credit rolls of the 1969 film, ‘Battle of Britain’ which notes 1 Israeli participated in the aerial combat for King and country and survived. Likely a Jewish pilot– but a neat trick all the same as there was no official state of ‘Israel’ in 1940.

Exactly. That’s the simple fact that defeats the only semi-rational rebuttal the Trumpsters have ever had to defend their dimwit against criticism from non-fans of reality TV presidents: “But Hillary!”

Aside from maybe Jeb (the Bush name factor) or Kasich, there wasn’t a single GOP candidate who wouldn’t likely have mopped the floor with Hillary, the most hated presidential candidate in history. Beaten her without losing the popular vote like the Orange McConnell. I call him the Orange McConnell to highlight the fact that he is the biggest and most effective GOP establishment fraud ever perpetrated against so-called conservative voters. He has destroyed constitutional conservativism as a viable electoral option in America for a generation, exactly as the GOP old guard intended him to be.

In 2014, McConnell vowed to “crush” the Tea Party movement. Trump — who was Mitch’s major donor and endorser against Tea Party challenger Matt Bevin that year — was the chosen weapon. Winning!

‘Republicans made a very, very big mistake picking Donald Trump in 2016.’ — Republicans made a very, very big mistake picking Barry Goldwater in 1964, too.

‘Anyone could have beaten Hillary Clinton’— except she actually won- well, sort of- the ‘popular vote’ count thing. But then Originalists cling to that antiquated Electoral College gadget. Cars and biplanes once needed to be cranked to get started, too– but thanks to progressive innovations, America moved on from that.

‘Our electorate is terrible.’— Yes, P, ‘We The People’ are a wretched lot: watching Trump welcomed and addressing the conservative FRC’s Family Values Summit is indeed ‘terrible’–if not utterly and hypocritically surreal.

The fever will likely break by 2024- but the GOP will be unrecognizable from the tail-wagging-the-dog-days of Reagan.

Boeing got more bad news this week so what with bodies going under buses bound for Ukraine every week, look out Mike– and look for Nikki to bail if Trump give her a spot to land. It would be a fresh, clever and winning move; Trump/Haley 2020.

@27 Just a bit of friendly advice, it’s free so it’s worth what you paid, I wouldn’t make this argument in anything but the most friendly of company. It’s a myth. At best history misremembered. Anyone paying attention in ‘16 will remember that everyone expected HRC to win against Trump easily and generally gave favorable odds against the entire field of R’s.

It was ironic bashing the NBA for kowtowing to China, when the Trump butt gerbils are terrified what will happen to their portfolios and 401(k)s if Wall Street drops because they stopped crawling up Trump’s butt.

Anyone could have beaten Hillary Clinton. No other Republican would have been this reckless. Our electorate is terrible, and the choices voters face in 2020 are untenable

Wow, you’re living in fantasy land if you really think this. Yeb!, Rubio, Cruz – they all would’ve lost. Only Trump had the energy and the outsider status needed to beat Hillary. Nobody was excited about the R establishment candidates, that’s why they lost to Trump. Yeb! had $100 million and all the endorsements.

An investigation is called for to find out if there was a quid pro quo from Turkey and/or Saudi Arabia to the Trump Organization or individual members of the Trump-Kushner combine or members of Trump’s administration (Hi, Betsy, how’s your brother doing?), and that’s not emoluments, it’s bribery. There’s also treason if it gives aid and comfort to terrorists, and a quid pro quo is not an element of that offense but it would be strong evidence.

People are being killed in Syria – and its all Trump’s fault. Wait, isn’t there a never ending Civil War in Syria? Its been going on since 2011, and as of 2016, over 370-57- thousand people have been killed. And that’s BEFORE Trump took office.

Did you know that 15% of Turkey’s citizen’s are Kurds? So why would Turkey be on some genocidal rampage against Kurds? They’re obviously against some political Fraction of the Kurds that are enemies of Turkey – for good reasons or bad ones.

How could R’s make a mistake in picking Trump – when he won. And he won on his own, despite the entire R establishment trying to throw the election to Hillary? People seem to get it wrong. Trump isn’t dragging down the R party, the R party is dragging down Trump. you think people are going to vote for Mittens – Act II or another Bush? People were tired of the loser platform of “Invade the world, invite the world” and “America Last” and “Lets give the D’s anything they want, as long was we get tax cuts for the rich”.

Just to get everyone on the record, who here is endorsing Biden to “save the Republic!”

I can’t speak for Patterio or any HERE – but i can tell you that we’re going to get a lot of “The conservative case for Joe Biden/Elizabeth Warren/Bernie Sanders” columns from the Never trumpers come Feb of next year. I think Bill Kristol and the Bulwark Boys have their’s ready to go.

@37 I think your comment was directed at me (26) rather than at 27, so I’ll respond.

“Anyone paying attention in ’16 will remember that everyone expected HRC to win against Trump easily and generally gave favorable odds against the entire field of R’s.”

Who is “anyone”? You mean the mainstream media? Actually, I paid very close attention in 2016, and my thoughts on the process, using the facts as they were playing out at the time, were recorded that year in many articles.

That many people thought Hillary would beat Trump is true. And she did win the popular vote.

That “anyone” thought Hillary would beat the whole GOP primary field is clearly false. All the “head-to-head” polls during the final months of the primaries were showing Hillary losing handily to most of the remaining GOP candidates, and most handily to Cruz and Rubio. The only remaining candidate who consistently polled neck-and-neck with her, rather than way ahead, was Donnie the Wonder RINO, Hillary’s long-time friend and donor, the only one on record praising her performance as Secretary of State one year after Benghazi.

Why do you think the mainstream media — and I mean CNN and MSNBC, not Fox — gave Trump a free pass and tons of free coverage during the GOP primaries, before turning on him after the Republican convention? The answer is obvious: They knew he was the candidate Hillary would have the best chance to beat, because his presence would effectively nullify many of Hillary’s most exploitable weaknesses. (Character questions, gun control, socialized health care, association with Bill Clinton’s presidency, and on and on.)

Her own party couldn’t support the decrepit and despicable Hillary with any enthusiasm, so they needed an opponent who could become the negative focus of the campaign, and be denigrated as an amoral hypocrite and dullard. That was Hillary’s only realistic chance, and it almost worked.

The list of equipment of the Turkish Land Forces has a helluva lot of ‘Made In U.S.A.’ stuff, too, along w/equipment from other NATO members. No doubt manufacturers and employees stateside are grateful for all that business- and the jobs they created.

@50. No. He’s a transient; like those highway signs that read ‘temporary inconvenience; permanent improvement.’ He’s a bridge to something new– or nothing new at all. He’s the period at the end of a four and a half decade long sentence; he has managed to do in just three years what the DNC and ‘Rockefeller’ Republicans have only dreamed of for 45; eviscerate and neuter the modern ideological conservative movement into irrelevancy. It’s simply glorious.

I can’t speak for Patterio or any HERE – but i can tell you that we’re going to get a lot of “The conservative case for Joe Biden/Elizabeth Warren/Bernie Sanders” columns from the Never trumpers come Feb of next year. I think Bill Kristol and the Bulwark Boys have their’s ready to go.

Actually, Tucker Carlson was the first to endorse Warren’s plan for the economy.

#53: Trumpsters like to point out that many people were very enthusiastic about voting for Trump. They disregard all the people who found him to be horribly unfit for the office, but who would easily have voted for another R.

I’ve seen supposedly smart people claiming that Trump’s eking out of an EC win proves that he was the only one who could have beaten Hillary. Forget about elementary logic.

@63, Yes, you’re right, that’s exactly the “logic” Trump cultists use. Their world is defined by Trump — good is Trump, evil is non-Trump — so they imagine any good achieved by Trump could ONLY have been achieved by Trump, and hence anyone else would have done evil. So in this case, as you say, the fact that Trump just barely beat Hillary is, for them, proof positive that no one else on Earth could possibly have beaten Hillary. History, memory, and common sense must be thrown overboard to make this true.

Its very simple, it requires no thought, shep smith thought the opposite, obama was the kindest wisest person we were fortunate to though. I imagine there is a similar ‘sound of drums’ happening with newsom. After it cant be his record.

I remember the first GOP debate when the questions were basically, “Jeb, can you say something nasty about Marco?”, “John, can you say something nasty about Ted?”, “Rand, can you say something nasty about Donald?” and Jeb! interrupted the “let’s you and him fight” set-up with a little impassioned speech about no matter how divided the candidates might be amongst themselves, they were all united in one thing – that we would never have Hillary Clinton in the White House. Moments after delivering this touching little applause line, Trump leaned into his microphone and said, “Yeah, and we’re not going to have a weakling, either.”

Donald Trump, live on national TV in front of God and everybody called Jeb! a weakling right to his face and had Jeb! leapt across the stage and punched Trump right in his fat, stupid mouth, Jeb! would be President today. If any of the other candidates standing there done the same in Jeb!’s defense rather than standing there embarrassedly staring at their shoes, they could have had the spot. But none of them did – because Trump was right.

If you think any of these candidates too timid to punch Trump in the mouth when he needed punching and punching him would have won them the nomination would have somehow been able to overcome a full-court press by Hillary and her flying monkeys in the MSM with the same “racist, sexist, evil Nazi” lies and smears they used to defeat every other Republican, well, I just want some of what you’re smoking.

Trump is a nasty, despicable, crude, rude, uncouth liar, a con man, a dirty fighter with no shame, no principles and no morals. In short, he’s a Democrat. Only a Democrat dirtier than Hillary could have beaten Hillary, and there’s Trump, happily wallowing in the filth.

Question, since I don’t have those numbers in front of me: Am I correct in assuming this average is from late in the primaries, when Kasich, Cruz, and Trump were the only three left? Because I remember Rubio polled very well against Hillary as well, much better than Trump. Of course, polls are not important indicators of anything that will actually happen in a real election, as they are mostly media advertising hype. But my point was merely that the people saying “Only Trump could have beaten Hillary” are basing this on nothing but their Orange-colored glasses.

The press is of course the great enemy, they have conjured this figment of an investigation with bailing wire and spit. They were on team erdogam last year, when he and the emir sought to take down the kingdom. They are firmly on the mullahs side in iram

It’s true. They were scared to death of him then and have become scairder. Ted Cruz came close to finding a spine with “vote your conscience,” then he came to his senses and fell lin line. They’re terrified of the Trump-loving electorate. Terrified of losing their cushy jobs. The man is self-immolating in front of them and they’re still terrified. Principles and morals? Those are in very short supply in Washington.

We therefore urge Member States to join us in focusing on the important work of expanding health and opportunities for all people, and especially those in situations of risk and/or vulnerability.

To make the most meaningful progress without delay or dissension, we respectfully call upon Member States to join us in concentrating on topics that unite rather than divide on the critical issues surrounding access to health care.

We do not support references to ambiguous terms and expressions, such as sexual and reproductive health and rights in U.N. documents, because they can undermine the critical role of the family and promote practices, like abortion, in circumstances that do not enjoy international consensus and which can be misinterpreted by U.N. agencies.

Such terms do not adequately take into account the key role of the family in health and education, nor the sovereign right of nations to implement health policies according to their national context. There is no international right to an abortion and these terms should not be used to promote pro-abortion policies and measures.

Further, we only support sex education that appreciates the protective role of the family in this education and does not condone harmful sexual risks for young people.

Let’s be more specific. Kurds are being killed in Rojava, and it’s all Trump’s fault. It’s what happened when he gave the green light to an Islamist dictator like Erdogan. The blood of these dead Kurds–our allies–is on Trump’s hands.

@79 That’s an interesting theory, and I don’t mean that sarcastically. I would have scoffed at it in 2016, but since then, Cruz has shown himself to be a hopeless sycophant and climbing flatterer, so who knows what he would have done against Hillary?

On the other hand, before he had his spine surgically removed, Cruz chose Carly Fiorina as his “front man” in the war against Hillary, which was very clever and probably would have been effective if allowed to play out. Unfortunately, Fiorina, strangely enough, has turned out to be a much bigger man than Lyin’ Ted when it comes to standing up to Small Hand Puke and his band of admirers. “Sure, he said my wife was ugly and accused my father of murdering a president, but what the heck, we’re all on the same team, right?” (And it was Fiorina who was the only candidate to directly smack Trump during a debate, as I recall, and very effectively, when she calmly called him out on his criticism of her face.)

According to your theory, which makes more sense the more I think it over, the best chance to beat Hillary was to nominate a progressive authoritarian demagogue who cared only about “winning” defined entirely in terms of promoting the demagogue’s own fame, and who would, to save his own cowardly hide, sell out anyone and everyone, even a whole nation, without a moment’s remorse.

Not ready to say I agree with it in the end, but it certainly makes sense.

As many as it takes. We went there to hunt down ISIS (and who knows for what other reasons) and they more than helped us — they did all the hard fighting. Now Cadet Bonespurs, a double-crossing w**remonger, has sold them out for a hotel in Istanbul.

It’s a bullsh*t question, akin to the stupid and infantile chickenhawk questions that were laughed out of debates 15-plus years ago.
One, we were hardly sacrificing US personnel in the fight against the Islamic State because the Kurds were doing the heavy lifting and actual sacrificing. It was a plan that worked exceptionally well. In all of Operation Inherent Resolve, we lost 88 US personnel, 17 in combat and the rest in “non-hostile” causes. For that sacrifice, the Islamic State was almost completely routed. It would be hard to argue that the cost of those losses, against a sworn enemy that had literally conquered territory in two nations, exceeded the benefit of pounding that group into near oblivion.
Two, we had a two-fold reason for being there–protecting Kurds and decimating militant Islamists. Those reasons haven’t changed and, with our assistance, the security environment vastly improved.
Three, Erdogan is an Islamist who aided the Islamic State by allowing militant Islamists to transit through Turkey. Stopping Erdogan served our goals of protecting Kurds from militant Islamists.
Four, our presence helped the one group of good guys in the region, the Kurds, and stymied all the other bad actors out there, including Assad, Putin, Erdogan and the Iranian mullahs. It was actually a strategy that was working for the US and served our interests. For once, a US administration had actually outmaneuvered Putin, and Trump gave it right back.
Five, as of six days ago, Trump unalterably changed the situation for the worse. If we go back in, then we would be going to war against a NATO ally, which is beyond problematic. This is a bell that Trump can’t unring, and this betrayal of an ally will be in the bottom five of Trump’s worst decisions in office.

Your best case scenario is that by some miracle we get Biden? Biden is a weaker candidate now than Hillary was is ‘16 and you say any R could have defeated her. Why not argue for a miracle that gives you an R candidate you can stomach?

Anyone could have beaten hillary clinton? How would free traders jebbie, little marco or cruz carried iowa, michigan, ohio, pennsylvania or wisconsin with their free trade is good blather. Little marco couldn’t carry his home state! Trump is the only republican who could have beat hillary clinton’s free trade as all the other republicans supported free trade or no donor cash!

123. Just like some Dem House members say they want to impeach, Ms Nancy refuses to take a vote. Spewing platitudes, is not necessarily a true position. To think any of these Republican Senators are voting against a President that carries a higher in party rating than Obama, is wish casting

Round up the federal career civil servant Resistance (DOJ in particular), dress them in battle fatigues, give them weapons and drop them in their boots on the ground in NE Syria. That would be a damned good start.

The Secretary of Defense was on Fox News Sunday – he says the decision to pull out U.S. troops was not just Trump, he aand others recommended it – their assessment was thet Turkey was fukly commmitted to going into Syria (after all there wass amilitary buildup) on the call Ergogan did not ask for permission, two dozen to 50 U.S., troops were not going to stop Turkey (Trump) didn’t want a tripwire – sacrificing American soldiers – they didn’t want to go to war against Turkey, they’re still communicating both with the Kurdish forces and with Turkey and still have hopes they can persuade Erdogan to pull his troops back across the border. (!??)

I suppose the best outcome might be something like Cyprus in 1974 – the United States didn’t fight Turkey there either but Turkey did stop before they overran everything.

Note: The United States only cut off intelligence information to Turkey Monday night. They cut off some help to the Kurds earoer. The U.S. had earleir promised Turkey that they would back akl the qeapons from the Jurds when the fight agaist ISIS was over. That’s not going to happen now.

This is all on Trump. I haven’t seen this level of cognitive dissonance since FDR was blamed for Pearl Harbor. How about this, it’s all on Congress, where is the declaration of war, or another AUMF for Kurdistan. Now that we are energy independent the Middle East is, to steal a phrase, not worth the bones of a single American soldier.

Trump has not only been an appeaser to Erdogan, his appeasing extends to Putin, a literal war criminal who also stands to benefit in Syria from our betrayal. If Trump abandons the good guys and falls in line with every bad actor in Syria, then this makes Trump a bad actor, too. Unfit.

[Trump is] transient; like those highway signs that read ‘temporary inconvenience; permanent improvement.’ He’s a bridge to something new– or nothing new at all. He’s the period at the end of a four and a half decade long sentence; he has managed to do in just three years what the DNC and ‘Rockefeller’ Republicans have only dreamed of for 45; eviscerate and neuter the modern ideological conservative movement into irrelevancy. It’s simply glorious.

And endlessly entertaining, too!

DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/12/2019 @ 7:07 pm

You are right that Democrats and Rockefeller Republicans are united, and I think they have been for decades. We conservatives often call them the Establishment and Trump is their current leader. He may not be their leader for long but he has always represented the heart of what the Establishment believes in — getting and retaining power at any cost. They are transactional in wielding power, not policy driven. Trump, especially, doesn’t care about the impact his actions have on people or allies.

But I think you are wrong that Trump has destroyed conservatism because, in order to win, Trump had to pretend to be a conservative. Trump may not live or act out conservative values but he knows he has to pretend to care about them.

@136. You said ‘destroyed’ – which is revealing in itself, as my terms were ‘eviscerate,”neuter’ and ‘irrelevancy.’ 45 years was a good run, DRJ. You can topple the infrastructure which sustains an ideology– and in this case, it was surprisingly swift– which indicates it was hollowed and weak– but not the ideology itself. There are still Nazis in the world. Trump has appointed roughly 160 Federal judges and got two ‘conservatives’ on to SCOTUS so “pretending” to be a ‘conservative’ – as consolation prizes go- has worked out pretty well for marginalized ideologues on the outs. For the past quarter century or so, it appears those folks were the true fakers and the reality of changing demographics–and time, finally caught up. The tail no longer wags the dog. Welcome to 1964.

Hundreds of ISIS Supporters Flee Detention Amid Turkish AirstrikesHundreds of relatives of Islamic State fighters fled a Kurdish-run detention camp on Sunday morning after Turkish airstrikes hit the surrounding area, deepening the crisis prompted by the Turkish-led invasion of northern Syria…..
A Kurdish official also said that the flag of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, had been raised in the countryside between the camp in the Kurdish-held town of Ain Issa and the Turkish border…… The Kurdish authorities are in negotiations with the Syrian and Russian governments to form an alliance against the Turkish force…..

This is all on Trump. I haven’t seen this level of cognitive dissonance since FDR was blamed for Pearl Harbor. How about this, it’s all on Congress, where is the declaration of war, or another AUMF for Kurdistan.

Oh, so Trump is just being a constitutionalist. I see!

Now that we are energy independent the Middle East is, to steal a phrase, not worth the bones of a single American soldier.

In the post I quoted from the WSJ editorial:

Jennifer Griffin of Fox News reports that Mr. Trump was supposed to tell Mr. Erdogan to stay north of the border. When the Turkish bully made his threats, Mr. Trump could have said that the U.S. military controls the air above the region and would respond to protect the Kurds and U.S. soldiers. Ms. Griffin reports that Mr. Trump instead “went off script” during the call and agreed to stay out of Turkey’s way.

Had our Dunce in Chief not gone off script, it would not have cost a single American life (hint: he is not bringing these people home) but it would have saved Kurd lives and prevented ISIS from escaping, which they are already starting to do.

I think you are saying conservatism is and has always been hollow and ineffective, and Trump is the vehicle that is showing how weak conservatism is. Also, you think that conservatives should be grateful for anything conservative Trump has done. Based on your past comments, my guess is you also think Trump has proven the value of a transactional approach — a pragmatic approach — to politics.

@138 I generally agree that the best defense is a good offense. But the AUMF was in response to 9/11. It shouldn’t have become an indefinite approval for any and all military conflict. That it was twisted into a blank check before DJT shows that True Conservative Inc was already a hallowed husk. But you still have your principles and conscience right? And they conveniently justify an anti-Trump position. Just don’t look to closely at what’s happening in China or to the Coptic Christians or the non-Muslims in other parts of the Middle East or with the Muslim slave trade in Africa.

Congress returns to session this week, and things are going to get dicey on the impeachment inquiry front in the coming months. Senate Republicans are in a bind. They’ve resigned themselves to the inevitability that House Democrats are going to call for a floor vote on articles of impeachment, probably right before the holiday recess, which would schedule the trial in the Senate for January. The Republicans do not want that, a televised trial immediately before the primaries and the election season begins in earnest. But McConnell has said that if the House passes articles of impeachment, he would have no choice but to hold a trial.

The problems for the Republican party are manifold here. First, there have been numerous House Republicans who have resigned or decided not to seek reelection–six from Texas alone–and one (Amash) who has left the party altogether. Clearly they do not like the direction the party is taking. How will these representatives vote on impeachment? They have nothing to fear or lose in 2020, since they won’t be on the ballot. Except for Amash, who says he intends to run for reelection as an Independent but might decide to run for president on the Libertarian ticket; either way, he’s already come out in favor of impeachment. The remaining House Republicans who are seeking reelection will be forced to make a vote on the floor, favoring or opposing impeachment. And if in favor, will they face a challenge in the primaries by some rabid Trump cultist?

Second, Senate Republicans will have a disproportionate number of seats on the ballot in 2020, far more than Democrats. It’s a reversal of the last cycle, when Democrats had a disproportionate number of seats on the ballot, and even then Republicans were barely able to hold their majority. Moreover, several of them have either resigned or decided to not seek reelection. How will they vote on conviction and removal? They have nothing to fear or lose either. Granted, there are not enough of them to give the Democrats the requisite 67 votes, but the pressure is not on them. It’s on the senators who will be on the ballot in 2020. Are they willing to risk a primary challenge by some rabid Trump cultist, or a backlash from voters?

Third, this election cycle is fraught with peril for Republicans, and they know it. This is why they do not want to hold a trial in the Senate, and go on the record with their vote. Do they go all in for Trump, as they did in the primaries and at the convention in 2016? Defend the indefensible and excuse the inexcusable, spout wild conspiracy theories on the floor of the Senate, exposing their hypocrisy for all the world to see?

The timing is all. These next few weeks and months will prove crucial. Here’s the thing. When Nixon faced the threat of impeachment, and rightfully so, he had solid Republican support, because he had been a lifelong Republican and had been reelected. When that support collapsed, he resigned rather than be humiliated. He did that for the good of the party, and Ford pardoned him for the good of the country. Trump doesn’t have that kind of support–his cult base is actually a small minority and shrinking–he’s never been a lifelong Republican, and he doesn’t give a damn about the party. His approval ratings decrease, with the number of voters favoring impeachment increase. This is a very thin tightrope Republicans are walking.

when Clinton was impeached, for questionable reasons, his strategy was to simply ignore the proceedings and concentrate on policy, advancing his agenda. The gutless Republicans were never going to convict him anyway, so he had nothing to fear by focusing on executive functions, which is why his popularity rose after acquittal. Trump has not done that. He’s become increasingly erratic, lashing out at perceived or imagined slights. His paranoia and insecurity is not doing him any favors.

In the end, the outcome will be determined by the articles of impeachment passed by the House. If the Democrats are smart, and Pelosi is a very shrewd politician, they limit their indictment to clear and inarguable violations of the public trust. Those may include obstruction of justice, as outlined in the Mueller report, abuse of office, solicitation or coercion of foreign interference, obstruction of congressional investigations, failure to comply with lawful subpoenas, subornation of perjury, violations of campaign finance laws, self-dealing, violations of the emoluments clause, and other high crimes and misdemeanors, such as dereliction of duty and conduct unbecoming. The more specific the charges, the more damning the evidence.

The administration can stonewall, and the White House may refuse to comply with oversight, but the longer this drags out, the worse it becomes. Trump doesn’t have Hamlet’s “antic disposition,” which was a ruse to expose corruption in the court–he really, seriously does suffer from a severe narcissistic personality disorder. And he’s becoming more and more manic as the days go on and the pressure builds.

This mess in Ukraine, which is all Giuliani’s doing; this mess in Syria, which is all Trump’s doing; the impending economic slowdown or recession due to mindless tariffs and trade wars; all of this is coming to a head in the next few months. The Republicans up for a vote in 2020 face a stark choice: either admit they made a mistake in 2016 and reclaim what little dignity they have left, or relegate the GOP to minority status for a generation. They’ve already lost the House; they could very well lose the Senate; they also could lose governorships and state legislatures–their entire majority that they spent decades building. All to protect a non-Republican, with fake orange spray tan and a bad toupee, who is utterly and manifestly unfit for office? Good luck with that.

Esper also referenced reports that the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish force that was allied with the U.S. in the battle against ISIS, is seeking an agreement with the Syrian and Russian governments.

We know they are credible reports because Esper confirmed he is recommending action based on the reports. For instance, pulling more troops out of Syria to get them out of harm’s way, and Trump ordered the withdrawal of more troops.

@144 Lets break this down a bit. Who rounded up relatives of ISIS fighters into detention camps? Is that supposed to be the position of America now? That if your cousin goes off to ISIS we throw you in a detention camp? Without knowing more about why these people were detained I’m going to say I’m glad they escaped. If being a faithful TrueCon in good standing means putting women and children into detention camps because a relative went to ISIS count me out.

At least we know this Kurdish official isn’t an idiot. He knows what to say to play to critics of the recent decision to withdraw. Do we know he didn’t run out to the countryside and plant this flag himself? Let’s check this one off too, if TrueCon requires I believe everything a random Kurdish official says count me out.

“Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) revealed in a new interview that House Democrats have discussed jailing allies of the president who do not comply with congressional subpoenas, an escalation of the House’s efforts to force White House compliance with an impeachment inquiry.”
_

I support George W Bush. I understand wanting to get our troops out of the Middle East, as well as other places. What I don’t understand is the way Presidents like Obama and Trump have chosen to do it. It’s as if they both want to make the US look bad.

@146, “Always”?? No, that’s an absolute. But clearly as ideologies go, out of step w/changing times and demographic shifts. The popular vote tallies for POTUS in the last general indicate that, too, along w/Trump’s nomination. There was a reason conservatism was soundly rejected and FDR was elected -four times- as well. Messaging from conservative ideologues is not tuned for reception in these changing times. Just look at the ‘names’ referenced by others in all the posts on the threads– Cruz, Romney, Jeb…. Lil’ Marco. All over the place– that’s looking backwards. They are not the future. Only half-kidding when suggesting a Trump/Haley 2020 pairing. That is your bridge to some where. She is your future– and the best bet for the first woman president– if Boeing doesn’t bring her down. She’s the right age, right gender, right color and to satisfy ideologues, right thinking. Personally, I ascribe to the pragmatic and transactional over the ideological. Ideologues become dogmatic and inflexible. And yes, for conservative ideologues on the outs, they should be pleased at the judicial appointments Trump has granted them. They opposed him from the start– if you recall that long list of essays in an NR opinion issue at the start of the primaries– and now find themselves on the bottom of the deck. Tough. As to evisceration– you can still pull yourselves back together– look to the future: Nikki Haley.

But the AUMF was in response to 9/11. It shouldn’t have become an indefinite approval for any and all military conflict.

It has never been. It is authorization to go after al Qaeda and its friends.

Our military has been doing an exceptional job, and they have not been engaged in major combat operations in recent years. Instead, they provide support for local forces doing the bulk of the fighting, and infrequently, use overwhelming force to destroy a high-value target. Casualties are extremely rare, yet they have prevented anti-American terrorists from operating unmolested in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and just about everywhere else except Iran and Pakistan. The death rate of US soldiers in Afghanistan is lower than the murder rate in some American cities.

But you still have your principles and conscience right? And they conveniently justify an anti-Trump position.

It’s odd you should say that, because the people opposing Trump’s “cut-and-run-after-stabbing-our-allies-in-the-back” policy opposed the exact same policy when it was Obama’s. We were right then, too.

Just don’t look to closely at what’s happening in China or to the Coptic Christians or the non-Muslims in other parts of the Middle East or with the Muslim slave trade in Africa.

And with the seemingly inevitable “whaddabout” here, your argument goes off the rails completely…

Second, Senate Republicans will have a disproportionate number of seats on the ballot in 2020, far more than Democrats. It’s a reversal of the last cycle, when Democrats had a disproportionate number of seats on the ballot, and even then Republicans were barely able to hold their majority. </blockquote. you are seemingly the first person besides me to notice this. In 2018 the Republicans actually did worse in Senate races than in House races (lost a higher percentage of them)

The Republican majority in the Senate is in great peril, as you say.

In the end, the outcome will be determined by the articles of impeachment passed by the House. If the Democrats are smart, and Pelosi is a very shrewd politician, they limit their indictment to clear and inarguable violations of the public trust. </blockquote. That may be what they are trying to do, but obstructing Mueller definitely is not one of them. Nor are most of the rest of them.

Ukraine, which is all Giuliani’s doing;

I think Vladimir Putin has something to do with thst.

this mess in Syria, which is all Trump’s doing;

policy errors, by themselves, are not consdered by most to be good grounds for impeachment and removal.

As I’ve watched the con man in the oval office disgrace himself–and the country–time after time, I’ve begun to think of the possibility of breaking ranks to hold my nose and vote for a somewhat moderate Democrat (Klobuchar? Gabbard? …) even though I would have to be prepared to disagree with them on a host of policy issues. But the only ones I could remotely consider are not high in the polls, and if we end up with a choice between Trump and Warren?!? That’s like being asked to sniff two turds and decide which one stinks less. As Patterico notes, it didn’t have to be this way. Republicans had many better choices in 2016.

@150. Yeah. Pretty funny; An “ally” 10 days ago– today an “ally for sale” to the highest bidding protectorate.

DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/13/2019 @ 10:12 am

Maybe they want to survive and will consider any partner to make that happen.

Trump and Rockefeller Republicans expect loyalty to only go one way. Do you think everyone should be loyal to America even if the loyalty is not reciprocated or, worse yet, even if they are betrayed by America?

I disagree that any of the other Republicans would have beaten Hillary.
Jeb! No!
Cruz? I don’t think he was up to it.
Paul? Nope

They might have beaten Hillary, but not her machine.

Curious about Biden. I see him as a corrupt lying hack who will say and do anthing to further his own ambitions, country be damned. Which is what you think we have now.
Biden may have a more historically correct military policy, but trade etc would just be more appeasement.

The people of the US felt like it was time for a disruptor to get us out of bad immigration policies, bad trade deals, bad employment policies, endless wars.
And we’ve gotten that in spades. With all the pain, uncertainty that comes with it.
I’d like to see a disruptor here in CA. Someone who can take the whole mess apart so we can start fresh rather than trying to rebuild off of a now deeply flawed structure.
Sometimes its better to try these things out at the state level before moving on to the national level, but god bless us, we decided to start at the top

America was founded on pragmatic concerns but also on ideology (like freedom), DCSCA. What ideals do you think our nation stands for, or do you think America is only here for business interests and the interests of its elites?

137.Sammy, what else could Trump’s SecDef say on a Sunday FoxNews show and still be SecDef on Monday. </blockquote. He could be a little less strong, like Pompeo is sometimes.

Now the questrion is how does this fit with:

Mr. Trump was supposed to tell Mr. Erdogan to stay north of the border. When the Turkish bully made his threats, Mr. Trump could have said that the U.S. military controls the air above the region and would respond to protect the Kurds and U.S. soldiers. Ms. Griffin reports that Mr. Trump instead “went off script” during the call and agreed to stay out of Turkey’s way.

So when exactly did Esper recommend that the troops ne pulled back? After Trump did not say Turkish troops would be bombed?

Was Trump is fact supposed to say that?

A Daily News editorial quoted some anonymous source as saying Trump “got rolled.” We don’t have the transcript of that conversation.

And what they’re saying now:

BOTH that Erdogan was going ahead regardless of what the U.S. said, AND that they still have hopes he’ll go back across the line.

As I said,1974 in Cyorus is maybe the best outcome to hope for. Trump and Mnchin are holding out the threat of damageing sanctions on Turkey. Of course, Erdogan is countering with a threat to Europe to send 3.5 million refugees there.

@167. So ‘survival’ overrides devotion to their ‘ideology’– that’s pragmatic; conservative ideologues should take note of that. This ‘game’ is about preserving NATO. Turkey is already sniffing around Russian arms packages and the geography does not help. Nations don’t have ‘allies’ they have interests. Preventing a breach in NATO is in America’s interest; a breach in the alliance would be the win of the decade for Russia. The Kurds are a chip in the pot.

But you still have your principles and conscience right? And they conveniently justify an anti-Trump position.

I.e., any criticism of Trump is made in bad faith, in an effort to justify a completely unfounded prejudice. In the Trumpster mind, there can’t possibly be honest, substantive reasons to disapprove of Trump based on what he actually says and does. Any criticism of Trump is proof of bias.

That’s the position being taken by people whose core principle today appears to be: “If Trump does it, then it’s good.”

Scott Adams has some interesting questions on Syria-Kurd situation in his newest Episode 692. As he states, the critics of Trump have decided to talk about Syria-Kurd situation like children, instead of adults. And the News media is not giving us enough information to know what is really going on.

@170. You should revisit the ‘corporate cosmology of Arthur Jensen.’ There is truth in satire. Our troops are corporate proxies; in the Middle East to protect corporate interests. In South Korea to protect corporate interests… etc., etc. ‘Ideology’ has nothing to do with it.

yes, pretty much so, you’re stuck defending Ukrainian oligarchs allied with Russia, the other guy explicitly argues for Ukrainian interests, he was even (redacted) sanctioned by Russia last year, as a counterplay to magnitsky, remember that, when you gave a farthing about money laundered through Cyprus,

Listened to part of Face the Nation. What a ridiculous interview. The Defense secretary said we pulled out 50-100 US “Forces” in the area being invaded. This area has millions of people and is thousands of square miles. But we were supposed to stop the Turks and protect the Kurds with 100 “Forces”! But the CBS female kept screeching about how we “abandoned the kurds”. No questions about how we are supposed to fire at – and go to war- against our Turkish Ally.

Later she had backstabbing Adam Kinzner, to babbling about how we “Don’t abandon our allies”. And Trump is to blame for everything. No questions about why we’re in Syria, what our endgame is, what we were dong before now. Just Orange man bad.

According to the CBS news babe and Kinzner, Trump is going to push the Kurds into “The arms of Russia”. And I laughed out loud. Ok, so what? what is Putin going to do with the Kurds, rock them to sleep? Burp them?

Maybe its better if Russia is protecting the Kurds. Isn’t what we all want? Nice, safe, protected Kurds?

Th Turks have been our allies throughout the cold war and fought with us in Korea. They also allowed Allied shipping through the Bosporus straits in 1945. They have millions of Kurds in Turkey. But now they’re the “evil Turks”. You never trumpers will say ANYTHING to hurt trump.

the critics of Trump have decided to talk about Syria-Kurd situation like children, instead of adults

Oh right, everyone knows that Trump always speaks and acts in the most mature, adult way, while everyone who criticizes him is childish — including all the military people in the field who have expressed their dismay and shame at being commanded to betray loyal allies.

but they are no longer because ergonokon 1&2, with the pretexts being the grey wolves and his partner gulen’s organization, but they are still in nato, that’s just a fact, it’s not like Syria where we deployed forces against prigozhin’s tin soldiers,

@191 You’re turned a specific criticism about Turkey-Kurd and turned it into a generalization. That means the Never Trumpers can’t deny they’ve been talking like Children about a serious foreign policy matter. Chanting “We can’t abandon our noble Kurd Allies” over and over is Kid talk.

I heard Trump’s Butt-kisser of Defense on the radio, too. He admitted:
1. That “we” had “urged” Turkey not to attack the Kurds but when Erdogan refused to take no for an answer the Pansy in Chief folded like a limp kleenex;
2. That it’s not only Trukish regular military forces, but also Islamist “militias” a/k/a death squads; and
3. That the Turks and their “militias” are already committing atrocities. He called it “war crimes”.

I don’t watch much cable news so I’m not really invested in who works where. I do know that I’ve had Smith on my list of people worth listening to since the early years of Obama. Don’t recall exactly why, but I’ve felt he was worth listening to for some time and haven’t seen much to make me reconsider that.

@199 I had the opposite reaction to Smith. I never understood the praise. He didn’t seem any better or worse than 20 other News talking heads. Put him on CNN and his liberal/never-trumper attitude would be unremarkable.

That means the Never Trumpers can’t deny they’ve been talking like Children about a serious foreign policy matter.

Sure we can. Because it’s not true, and therefore quite susceptible to denial.

Abandoning the Kurds to the tender mercies of the Turks is wrong for both pragmatic and deontological reasons. The deontological reason (that you have a moral duty to support an ally in their time of need, no matter what is in it for you) is what you are dismissing as childish. Which is odd, because the opposite stance (that it is NOT always wrong) is frequently given life by actual children, as they fly from their friends at the first sign of adult-based trouble that might encompass them if they stayed. But whatever.

However, the pragmatic reasons should be obvious to anyone who cares to give the issue more than a second’s worth of thought…and who is so clearly well-versed in the nuances of realpolitik as yourself. The world knows what the Kurds did for the United States, in both Iraq and Syria. If we then allow Turkey to roll over them, we will probably find it harder to find a friend the NEXT time we need some dirty work done that we don’t want to expend American lives in order to do. The refusal to consider these consequences is quite…what’s the word…childish.

apologies if it’s misspelled, now kinzinger did support an aid package to Syrian rebels, one faction of which sold james foley to Islamic state, that’s where the bulk of our support has gone in Syria, to people who either don’t fight or fight against us, and we gave them heavy weapons,

ME politics is complicated. Looks like Trump has once again taken a reasonable action, reducing our foreign commitments, and executed it in the stupidest way possible.

Reducing foreign commitments: Good.
Allowing Turkey to invade Syria: Not Good.
Allowing our Kurdish allies to be killed: Bad
Not making provisions for the ISIS prisoners they were guarding: Bad
Diminishing US credibility: Bad
Not building a domestic or international political coalition in support of this: Bad
Creating a situation where an armed and trained ethnic group will hate us and may turn to our enemies: Bad.
Creating a situation where the US will be blamed for the atrocities of Turkish soldiers: Bad

Again, I’m fine with the top line item. It’s good to bring those 1,000 troops home. But this really does seem terribly done. Maybe it will work out better in the long run. But at this point it just seems like more of Trump’s weakness and incompetence.

Th Turks have been our allies throughout the cold war and fought with us in Korea. They also allowed Allied shipping through the Bosporus straits in 1945.

Which is a good reason to remain allies with the Turks. Which is NOT mutually exclusive to remaining allies with the Kurds…or shouldn’t be, at any rate, except that the government of Turkey doesn’t like Kurds very much.

They have millions of Kurds in Turkey.

Who are persecuted. I mean, you do know this, right? Please tell me you know this.

You never trumpers will say ANYTHING to hurt trump.

You’ve taken a specific criticism about President Trump and turned it into a generalization. That means the Trumpers can’t deny they’ve been talking like children about a serious foreign policy matter…gosh, is this sounding familiar to you, rcocean?

so where do you want to redeploy first from, this contingent is as small as the 50 advisors the dems harangued for in el Salvador, of course we discovered the dgi had a mole on the dia for nearly 20 years who gave up the location of us forces, in 1985, the end of that story, was the opening to high crimes,

yes it’s all astroturf, lois lerner’s boss, trevor potter runs the outfit that filed the complaint, zaid used bakaj to get an ig that was more amenable to this sham run by Schiff’s staff, said staffer was knee deep in the pressure campaign against shokin, in return for the loan guarantees,

We had imposed a no-fly zone that the Russians respected. The f***ing Russians! Then Erdogan took out his tube of Vaseline, Trump dropped his pants and bent over, no more no-fly zone, Turkish planes can now bomb and strafe the Kurds at will.

And what they’re saying now:
BOTH that Erdogan was going ahead regardless of what the U.S. said

So what if Erdogan said that. If Erdogan attacks US forces, there are major repercussions against Turkey for such an act. An attack on one NATO member is an attack on every NATO member, regardless of whether the attacker is a NATO member or not.
We’re not some pissant little country like Greece, we’re the United F*cking States America. We’re a goddam superpower. When some tinpot Islamist dictator makes threats against us, the proper response from us is to tell him to pound sand. If Erdogan insists, we tell him that if he harms a hair on a US soldier, he’ll lose his air force.
But instead of bullying the bully right back, Trump backed down like a coward he is.
Erdogan threatened, Trump appeased.
Trump lied, Kurds died.

Marco Rubio
@marcorubio
As Turkish backed fighters approach a Kurdish held city in #Syria:
-700 #ISIS supporters escaped
-Erdogans forces are filming themselves beheading Kurds – U.S. troops are at serious risk of being cut off & of coming under attack by enemy fighters.

As a trained mortarman let me tell you how despicable this is. When you bracket a target you are essentially shooting over and under the target till you are on target. Our troops knew what was happening to them. Great allies we have in the Turks.
Quote Tweet

This is a reflexive always-Trump response to ANY criticism of Trump. Every substantive criticism is painted as simply an effort to hurt poor, victimized Donnie, for no good reason.
The more things Trump does that deserve criticism, the more the Always Trumpers can say “You’re always trying to hurt Trump!”
It’s rather convenient, isn’t it?

@144 Lets break this down a bit. Who rounded up relatives of ISIS fighters into detention camps? Is that supposed to be the position of America now? That if your cousin goes off to ISIS we throw you in a detention camp? Without knowing more about why these people were detained I’m going to say I’m glad they escaped.

Donald Trump said Wednesday that he would kill the families of terrorists in order to win the fight against ISIS.

The billionaire businessman was asked by the hosts of Fox News’ “Fox and Friends” how to fight ISIS but also minimize civilian causalities when terrorists often use human shields.
“The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don’t kid yourself. When they say they don’t care about their lives, you have to take out their families,” Trump said.

I eagerly await your vigorous denunciation of that statement. I’ll pay attention to exactly how vigorous it is. Does it suddenly become palatable when coming out of the mouth of the cult leader?

I swear, I often feel like this is a game played by the Almighty, to see just what specific travesties and patently immoral actions will be tolerated by the cult members. The answer, each time, is “this one too!”

@205. Postscript to postscript. Don’t forget, the NBA pretty much confirmed what the priorities are in their Yankee-Doodle business model for the world to see are over the past few days, too. ‘Ideology’ doesn’t always add to the bottom line.

Some of trumps strongest supporters don’t care about any specific policy goal so much as that their tribe be respected. Respect and insult directed at trump is taken personally.
That’s what they really care about, and they’re very consistent in that goal.
Some of them seem completely befuddled by the idea that how something reflects on trump isn’t the most important thing. Because to them it is.

The Turks do have a history of genocide and then acting like it never happened. So the Kurds aren’t just clutching pearls. The Kurd of the commie variety PKK, and the slightly different variant YPG aren’t all that great beyond temporary usefulness as proxies.
But… and its a big one, is if we need to go back into Syria to deal with ISIS again we will have to deal with angry Kurds who have a history of carrying blood feuds and grudges for centuries

it’s a nasty part of the world, the itijihad ‘cleansing’ carried out by ataturk’s young turks, is side by side with his secularism, and his successors propensity toward Nazi germany, Erdogan rises from a different place of Salafism, which is antithetical to the West that’s why he backs Hamas, the militias in Syria, and the ones in Libya, they used the Kurds to cleanse the Armenians, the soviets armed the asala and the pkk in the 70s, if I was a kurd or an Armenian, I would certainly understand that choice,

Only some people are entitled to walls of text, I personally think a link and a paragraph, should suffice to get the point across,

Think about all this- 10 days ago the Kurds were penciled in on the menu as ‘allies’ and today they’re being bombed and shelled by American-made aircraft and artillery by another ‘ally’- this one a 57 year member of NATO. And critics actually want to see U.S. built F-16s, flown by Turkish/NATO member pilots– shot down. It’s madness. It’s how to crack the alliance. It’s how Russia keeps winning pots with a pair of deuces.

Taking responsibility for cleaning up the crap left behind by previous Presidents is part of the job.
Bush was left the conditions that gave us 9/11. Bush left Obama 8 years of mismanaged conflict that had turned GWOT.
Obama bungled the GWOT and left Trump 16 years of mismanaged conflict and then bungled ISIS as a welcome gift.
Trump is going to leave someone a mess too. Its a US tradition. The thing that stands out to me most is 16 years of conflict, now 19 years, of deeply entrenched conflict. It is a quagmire now and needs to be fixed.
I think we are arguing about how Trump is going about it, but hopefully, agree that a lot of work needs to be done, and it is not going to be smooth or easy. (particularly with Trump. Washington is not at all comfortable with his style. Trump needs to learn and Washington needs to change. May god have mercy on our souls)

The Kurds should be told to sit down with the hated Turks and work something out, because as a NATO ally we cannot get militarily involved against them, and acting as human shields is not part of our plan.
The Turks need to be told to sit down with the hated Kurds now or the Turkish economy is going to be sanctioned back into the Turks old and much beloved Ottoman empire age…. (of course the Germans will promptly flout the sanctions)

Trump is doing something very useful here: Should we or should we not have our forces in the middle of a civil war?

If we should, on what legal basis does the President have to engage militarily beyond the War power Act? (I don’t recall Congress voting to re-authorize the engagement… did I miss it?). (please don’t bring up the 2001 AUMF…that ain’t it.)

no it’s a stone cold reality, khalid sheikh mohammed’s extended family, were all part of the September 11th plot, from the op planner to the courier, and or had knowledge of same, terrorist cells operate much like gangs, just their motivations are different, mugniyeh had inlaws in Kuwait and other places, some of them were released in the iran contra exchanges, much the same with the French,

President Donald Trump threatened on Saturday night to sue top congressional Democrats Rep. Adam Schiff and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi amid the House impeachment inquiry into the President.

Trump, who has a long track record of calling for lawsuits against his critics and not following through, said, “We’re going to take a look at it. We’re going after these people. These are bad, bad people.” The President was speaking at the Values Voter Summit in Washington, DC.

Trump said he spoke to his lawyers about Schiff and told them, “Sue him anyway, even if we lose, the American public will understand.”

[…]

The speech and debate clause in the US Constitution, which appears in Article 1, section 6, protects members of Congress from being sued over their statements made on the floor, which also would apply to committees.

@252. ‘Should we or should we not have our forces in the middle of a civil war?’

Vietnam should have taught that lesson– as the Pentagon Papers revealed. It’s no accident Trump keeps referencing the $7 trillion spent on the broader Middle East in his patter. Protection money, a racket, a shakedown– whatever you want to call it; to keep the canal and the straits open, commerce active- and not just sales of military equipment but autos, construction and re-construction, goods and services, etc.,- and of course, to keep petroleum products flowing to the world and the market stable for the benefit of corporate interests and investments there.

Only some people are entitled to walls of text, I personally think a link and a paragraph, should suffice to get the point across,

You should try that. Because what you usually do is a link and what could generously be called a sentence fragment. I would honestly like it if you did. It sometimes seems like you have a rational point of view backed up by some knowledge of history that just isn’t coming across. Other times you seem only semi-coherent.

Mugniyeh, the one who ordered the bombing of the American embassy and the marine barracks, bob baer wrote a book about his hunt for him, but used his kunya, war name, you think they play games over there, he was recruited from Arafat’s security unit, force 17, the ones that planned munichm

Whataboutism is *justifying* a bad act by citing another bad act done by someone else. It is completely illogical and self-contradictory, because citing the second bad act as bad means it cannot justify anything similar. Rather, by drawing an analogy between something you want to justify and something else you implicitly or explicitly condemn as bad, you are defeating your own rhetorical purpose. That is whataboutism.

Example: Justifying a Trump lie by citing an Obama lie. Obama’s lies were bad, so they cannot support any rational argument that someone else’s lies are good. The intended argument (to justify Trump) is illogical. Rather, the comparison reinforces the fact that Trump’s lies are ALSO bad.

On the other hand, *condemning* one bad act by comparing it to another (also condemned) bad act (which is what Patrick did in regard to Trump’s “target the families” statement) is logically sound, to the extent the two bad acts are, in fact, comparable, and is not what is meant by “whataboutism”.

Example: Condemning a Trump lie by citing an Obama lie. Obama’s lies were bad, and Trump’s lies are therefore also bad. This argument is logically consistent, and not “whataboutism”.

Another logically sound line of argument which is sometimes incorrectly described as whataboutism is comparing two statements or acts of the *same* person or entity and showing they are inconsistent.

what covering up the deliberate murder of Americans including the envoy, that was sent there, that’s a big deal, but the Democrats treated that like a joke, an inconvenience, that act helped provoke a whole cascade of effects that echoed all the way to west Africa,

WASHINGTON: US Defense Secretary Mark Esper said Sunday the Pentagon would cooperate with the congressional impeachment inquiry — in an apparent break with President Donald Trump’s policy to thwart the probe.

Esper said his department would try to comply with a subpoena from House Democrats seeking records relating to the withholding of US military aid to Ukraine.

Esper’s reassurance came days after the White House announced it would not cooperate with the Democratic-led House of Representatives, calling its impeachment push illegitimate and unconstitutional.

Trump himself has been using Twitter to bombard the public with conspiracy theories about a secret “deep state” trying to remove him from power.

Vietnam should have taught Trump many things, DCSCA, but clearly he did not learn.

Bush Jr fans, sipping a slurpee as others try to get your car out of the ditch is still not a good look. But, keep at it.

Trump fans, stuffing their face with their 3rd fried chicken, as others try to climb to the top of the hole Trump has dug.

Clue: you do not solve your foreign policy problems by applying random behavior to you dealings with other nations. Up to now I have never believed that Trump was Putin’s stooge, and this disbelief was anchored by Trump’s policy in Asia Minor. Now, he’s completely tossed it all in; it’s almost that Putin has declared a fire sale before impeachment.

@266 Are you now agreeing that it’s bad to put the families of ISIS members in camps? It’s not clear from this thread that you, or Patrick, are taking that position since both of you have indicated that we should be supporting the Kurds and their efforts against ISIS in the region, which we now know includes detaining families of ISIS members in camps.

@269. History certainly isn’t his strong suit but $7 trillion taxed/borrowed/extorted/snookered/scammed/dumped/flown-in-cash-on-a-palette into the Middle East over decades on ‘endless wars’ while priorities- infrastructure and so on- go wanting and crumble at home resonates loud and clear w/his base– and elements of a broader ‘America First’ constituency.

He’ll hit that note more and more; it’s the MAGA crowd who got him elected– and will get him re-elected.

now Jason beale, is an interrogator, who saw through the carp that Feinstein put out through dan jones, even though john brennan hacked himself a copy, he’s pointed out how ridiculous some of these procedures that have been suggested are, but he hasn’t given his whole name, he knows how many terrorists are likely to threaten him and his whole name, these whistlers, what do they face stapler cuts,

Without knowing more about the circumstances I don’t have enough information to form a judgment.

The camps might be the same ones they were living in before Kurds took control of the surroundings. My understanding, admittedly imperfect, is that many of the ISIS fighters are not locals, and if so their decision to bring their families into a war zone has helped create the situation.

Whenever possible, consistent with the security of our forces and those of our (former) allies, non-combatants should not be molested.

Iraq only seems like a horrible idea because Obama gave up our incredible victory.

Iraq had people voting. Sticking it out would have created the most successful nation in the middle east (they simply have more resources than Israel for example). It would have increased the pressure on the dictators enormously, but not immediately. Like water shaping a river, it would have solved the real problem between our world and theirs.

Of course, in hindsight, it’s so clear that the political parties wouldn’t have helped their opponents generate such a great success. After WWII, we were willing to do what it took to preserve a peaceful future, but we also had the pressure of the cold war to force us to keep allies. Today’s cold war is civil, and both parties actually help national adversaries, so the lines are muddled. I wish I could think of a way to fix it. I will say that at least Cruz does try to show party lines aren’t important.

…..”There was no chance (Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan) Erdogan would keep his promise, and full blown ethnic cleansing is underway by Turkish supported militias,” he said. “This is what happens when Trump follows his instincts and because of his alignment with autocrats.”
…..Prior to Turkey’s offensive last week, as a confidence building measure with the country, the US convinced the Syrian Kurds to dismantle their defensive fortifications along the border and pull their fighters back. The US said Turkey had agreed to the arrangement which sought to prevent unilateral Turkish military action. Trump then had the Pentagon pull back US troops along that part of the border…..

Dave
If that whataboutism post was to me, it wasn’t: What about?!!!. It is “What got us here?”
Due to the nature of our system, every 4-8 years the new President inherits crap from previous ones and then will be judged by how well or how poorly he/she does with the leftover crap. That is a huge part of every Presidents job, and the one I think they spent the least amount of time thinking about during their campaign. They’d be smart to spend a lot more time planning for this because day one…. its all your problem. It is important to understand what the previous administrations did and why in order to be able to learn the lesson rather than merely rinsing and repeating it.
Charging thats whataboutism, when someone traces a path back looking for understanding, to make a new decision, a new policy, often means moving forward blindly without knowing how we got here or sometimes even “where are we now”. Historic context is extremely useful in solving historical problems.
My other point is that Trump (and other Presidents) inherit some long running, perhaps systemic problems in this case 19 years of the GWOT.
Given that problems often compound like credit card debt, it is in our best interest to tackle those issues and maybe have to make painful decisions.
Trump gets large credit and some ever smaller leeway from me for tackling the ongoing GWOT. I don’t like how it is going right now, and I also know Mattis told Trump this would happen, but Mattis’ approach was never going to get us to disengage either.

The view through a historical lens in an effort to gain understanding.
Understanding is foundational. We use names like Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton when searching for understanding because those names speak to the philosophies and tendencies of their administration.
In China it helps to understand the philosophy of the dynasty and the individuals within

A significant Trump flaw is that he doesn’t take time to understand what happened and why. Students of history like Mattis are often an anathema to Trump. He’s impulsive. He sometimes lacks understanding and acts anyway. He needs more understanding and less “whattabout that guy” so maybe you and I agree on that.
Trump also lives a life rich in hubris. He can be told that “the last guy who did that shot his dick off” and he may not listen…. that guy was a loser, the appendage of a winner is bulletproof..

@276 I’ve been questioning why we went in from the beginning and I’ve never been in favor of using the never-ending ever-expanding AUMF to get involved in something like this, which was my point in @148.

I was against this pre-DJT but I’m sure questioning it now will further cement my superfan status. It’s not even worth asking the inverse question, i.e. which NeverTrumpers before this were pushing for continued involvement in vaguely defined military operations against ever-shifting but magically related al Qaeda groups.

MOSCOW (AP) — From Syria to Ukraine, new fault lines and tensions are offering the Kremlin fresh opportunities to expand its clout and advance its interests.
The U.S. military withdrawal from northern Syria before a Turkish offensive leaves Russia as the ultimate power broker, allowing it to help negotiate a potential agreement between Syrian President Bashar Assad and the Kurds who were abandoned by Washington.
And in Ukraine, where the new president saw his image dented by a U.S. impeachment inquiry, Russia may use the volatility to push for a deal that would secure its leverage over its western neighbor.

I haven’t mentioned yet today that too many of Trump’s actions and decisions have been unpatriotic and un-American, so I’ll just say right now that his betrayal of our best Muslim ally in the Middle East was unpatriotic and un-American.

I’ll be disappointed if the House doesn’t impeach him before Christmas.
And to answer his question, if he’s so grossly incompetent that he doesn’t understand the document he swore to uphold, let alone preserve and protect and uphold it, then yes, he should be impeached and removed.

BTW, if there’s one thing you should never do in foreign policy is engage in “whataboutism”.
Remember we make decisions based only on what happened today and yesterday, and every foreign policy choice is binary. History doesn’t matter, nor does the future. The only thing that matters:

Um, a respectable foreign policy objective is to serve American interests, not Putin’s. His feelings are irrelevant. He’s a dictator who has been consistently hostile to our interests, so he just might be agreeable when Trump handed him a victory on a silver platter.

which NeverTrumpers before this were pushing for continued involvement in vaguely defined military operations against ever-shifting but magically related al Qaeda groups.

ISIS isn’t “magically related” to al qaeda. It is al qaeda. They have sworn allegiance officially, but they are actually the same people. Al qaeda is just a networking service for cells. ISIS is the movement for an Islamic nation that murders us.

And as far as I know, every sane person very much supported fighting them. Trump did too. Until it got in Putin’s way, there was never a hint this was a bad idea. I don’t think even ISIS has argued it’s against our interests to fight them…

It’s crystal clear that Trump’s 180 is bizarre and wrong. Either someone held some blackmail over his head, or Putin simply can boss him around. We knew he colluded with Russia, we caught him trying to do it again for 2020, and sooner or later it will be clear that all the Trump fans here trying to defend helping ISIS are simply going to defend anything Trump does, no matter how wrong.

I don’t like Trump he should be impeached and removed no matter what the voters think.

rcocean (1a839e) — 10/13/2019 @ 7:15 pm

Oh you care about what the voters think? Millions more of them voted against Trump. The voters told us what they think, told us again in 2018, and will tell us again in 2020. Usually you say it doesn’t matter what the voters think. Do you think it matters?

Gee Dustin, Bush lost the house and the Senate in his mind-term, while the dems were howling for impeachment. In fact, most presidents have seen congress flip during mid-term. Is it your contention that sort of thing should mean the voters have spoken and the president should resign for democracies sake?

We’ll see how long this Heligolander economy keeps propping up Wall Street and by extension Trump. You know what Heligoland was, right? A place where the people earned their living by taking in each others’ washing. That’s what our so-called “service economy” is these days. Not enough people producing, too many people performing unproductive chores for each other.

As long as Trump voters like the artificially-inflated state of their stock portfolios, 401(k)s, IRAs, and similar, they’ll be fine with the orange in the White House no matter how many Kurdish babies are spitted on Turkish Islamic “militia” bayonets. But if Wall Street starts to drop, then it’s goodbye Donnie.

That’s why the daffodil (it’s a flower like a pansy but yellow) is being so tame with Iran and so solicitous of Saudi Arabia (such as just putting an *additional* 1,800 American troops in harm’s way there). The “we’re now energy independent” bullsh!t notwithstanding, the oil must flow from the Persian Gulf, or markets will suffer worldwide and Wall Street probably the most, the paper prosperity will vaporize like it did in 1929, and Trump’s support will too.

I was pointing out that by your previous argument, if you vote for someone you are complicit and to blame for all of their subsequent sins.

But. On another note, was not paying enough attention to current events (thank you Jesus for the peace and quiet) and did not know the Kurds were hitching their wagon to Assad. It would have been better if the Syrian Kurds sat down with Turkey, but realize they are not going to, absent blood shed by the Turks for past sins.
So now we have a more natural alliance that doesn’t require US troops. There is also a mutual interest in defeating any resurgence by ISIS.
It may be inadvertent, but Trump may pull a win out of this over the course of the next 6 months

After all this time, you may think you know me well, but posts like that one say you don’t.
I’ve read enough of your posts on economics to know you would never vote for Warren. You may for Biden because am seeing you as a squish for an establishment guy that way… am I wrong?

Cengiz
✔
@CengizYar
Horrific videos coming out of NE Syria right now. Turkish-backed fighters executing people on the side of a highway, women covering in blood screaming over dead children, chaos in an ISIS prison.

1,373
11:50 AM – Oct 12, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy
1,025 people are talking about this
This is all on Trump. All of it. And the people who voted him into office and continue to support him.

1. My only contact with Bill Maher is when he’s mentioned here.
2. Some of us know more things than just those found by clicking internet links.
3. And hell no, that ain’t all I got on the daffodil’s supporters. Not all of them are in it for the state of their retirement nest egg just as not all of them are in it because they hate Mexicans. Trumpolatry is a multi-faceted disease.

Oh.
And the individual word “support”. You pick up a win there too if you want it.
I 100% support this move by Trump, but I do support him. I hated what Obama did to my health care, but as our President I supported and would have defended his life personally even if I rarely supported his policies

@304/@323. Pelosi will have the House shuffle paper, send out subpoenas, do lecture pressers and the administration weasels will keep batting’em away — in other words, stall, until after the November 5 elections this year. Then do a head count and press on w/t formal vote for the record to move from the ‘inquiry’ phase.

But a week or two is half a lifetime w/our Captain at the helm.

He’ll likely commit more impeachable offenses w/every new phone call, could try and put a down payment on Iceland, as Greenland won’t sell; pre-pardon Giuliani and award Hannity the Medal of Freedom by then.

@317 Then it should have been easy to get an AUMF for Syria. It would also have been nice to follow some sort of process. Maybe some justification beyond just saying al qaeda and throwing money and men at it.

I’m all for taking out ISIS but we spent some time in Syria funding islamic militia groups that looked a lot like ISIS. We didn’t call them ISIS because they were on “our side”, i.e. they were fighting Assad/Russia/Iran/Hezbollah. Fighting Assad/Russia/Iran/Hezbollah is a good thing and maybe siding with islamic militia groups to do it is a good idea, maybe not. We’ve triangulated ourselves into a complex multiway conflict since then.

Maybe our involvement there is a little more complex than just fighting ISIS.

Paul Rand. Heh! My only fond thought of that washed-up ineffectual two-faced weasel is that he’ll have the same well-reasoned, well-articulated arguments for double-crossing Trump when Trump’s star wanes as he has now for double-crossing the Kurds.

Rand Paul made a good argument for pulling out of Syria and reminded Chuck Todd that the SDF was our ally against ISIS only

Rand Paul is another Republican hypocrite who pathetically sold his soul to Trump. Four years ago he was in favor of an independent Kurdish state in Syria (link). Funny how GOP hypocrites like Paul say one thing when a Democrat is in power and something else when Trump is large and in charge.

Washington (CNN) A disturbing video of a fake President Donald Trump shooting, assaulting and stabbing his critics and the media was played at a conference held by a pro-Trump group at his Miami resort last week, according to footage obtained by The New York Times.

The video, which was shown at Trump’s National Doral Miami during a three-day conference held by American Priority, includes the logo for Trump’s 2020 reelection bid and showcases a series of internet memes, the Times reported. One part of the video, the Times said, shows a fake Trump’s head edited onto the body of a man opening fire in the “Church of Fake News” on a group whose faces were edited to appear as a group of Trump critics and news organizations.

According to the Times, the clip ends with Trump driving a stake into the head of a person who has the CNN logo for a face before standing and smiling as he looks around.

I pray they were not family members, Dave. You people are so casual with American Soldiers deaths. May God have mercy on you people.

mg (8cbc69) — 10/14/2019 @ 3:54 am

The ugly truth, which we learned in WWII, is that letting enemies take over will cost us more death later. We will have to go back, with fewer allies, and more bitter enemies. I hope they name that war “Operation Thank Trump for This.”

Trump’s change of pace here was insane. Promising the Kurds a “Safe Zone” while getting them to drop their defense, then abandoning them suddenly and watching them get slaughtered? If we really intended to leave, we should played straight with our friends. The idea Trump did this for Code Pink reasons is a lie. He set them up to help Russia.

“When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak…as being spit on by the rest of the world.” — The daffodil some time ago

So where’s your strength now, daffodil? The whole world is spitting on us. Is your definition of strength these days to badmouth half the people of the United States and their elected representatives, while licking foreign tinpots’ boots?

Because yes, this ‘bring them home and don’t worry about Islamist terror or defending America and Bush is the devil’ argument was basically copied from them. And I don’t have any problem with that argument being presented… except Trump said the exact opposite a few weeks ago, and so did his fans, and the only reason you are all flipping is because Putin said “roll over.”

Funny how Trump’s foreign policy initiatives have all cratered since that neocon Bolton left (on 9/10).
On 9/7, Trump backed away from inviting the Taliban from Camp David, which was Bolton’s last straw.
Trump pussied out on a military response after the Iranian drone-attacked a major Saudi oil facility.

His hair is Aqua Net
His skin-tone scares off flies
His hands are very small
He loves Kim Jong’s sweaty thighs

He’ll turn his bullsh!t on you
Never say the same thing twice
He’s pure as New York snow [too apt to parody]
He loves Kim Jong’s sweaty thighs

And he’ll con you, he will grift you
All the better just to cheat you
He’s a punk, and he knows just what it’s
Like to lick despot butt
He’s got Breitbart to push lies, he loves Kim Jong’s sweaty thighs

Four deaths too many. I’m too sure what our 50-100 human shields were supposed to do to stop a Turkish invasion. In any case, we all know the NTY/Wapo/Democrats are only getting hysterical about the Kurds because it hurts TRump. That’s the reason for 95% of their actions. If Trump were to go to war with Turkey over the Kurds, they would be screeching about “Warmonger Trump – sending Americans to their deaths”.

The Democrats and liberals always lie, and dream about Obama’s sweaty thighs.

You tell me how to end the afghan war, after biden threw shade on karzai through his fixer peter galbraith after the counterinsurgency plan was sabotaged early on after the bogus sacking of general petraeus. You want to talk about treason, enemy action thats the definition

The above comment was a case of premature submitulation. Lemme try this again.
Funny how Trump’s foreign policy initiatives have all cratered since that neocon Bolton left on September 10th.
On 9/7, Trump backed away from inviting the Taliban to Camp David, which was Bolton’s last straw.
After that, Trump pussied out on a military response after Iranian drones attacked a major Saudi oil facility.
After that, nuclear negotiations with North Korea crumbled into nothing.
After that, in one of the stupidest decisions in American history, Trump betrayed a real ally by cutting and running from Rojava.

Is there anything left to the “America First” agenda? Not really. The attempt to oust the socialist government of Venezuela flopped back in April. The plan for the “ultimate deal” between Israelis and Palestinians has never been released, and Trump’s point man on that project, Jason Greenblatt, announced his departure last month.

And now we have Trump’s weekend lie that he cut a deal with the Chinese. I might have said this once or twice, but there never was an “America First” agenda, it’s “Trump First, America Second”. Heck, going by his fleeing from Rojava, it could be “Trump First, Putin Second, America Third”.

Four deaths too many. I’m too sure what our 50-100 human shields were supposed to do to stop a Turkish invasion.

Code Pink or Trump fan? Can anyone guess?

Also, no invasion happened until we let it happen so you’re not too sure about… reality. The alliance with the Kurds kicked ISIS’s ass with an incredibly low number of US casualties… now that we threw that away at Putin’s snap of the fingers, many more casualties will be in our future. And when that happens, you will be saying it’s not Trump’s fault. But it will be.

Noted, that your stand is that the US should have done nothing when the Islamic State conquered half of Syria and a third of Iraq. Even air support would’ve put US personnel at risk, and we can’t have that, no?

You dont like retaliation, you dont like retaliation, but out right bribes like the framework or the iran deal, youre fine with that.

narciso (d1f714) — 10/14/2019 @ 7:34 am

Cryptic commment might be saying if you don’t like Trump and Code Pink you must be OK with Obama’s Iran deal. That’s dumb and dishonest. No one criticizing Trump for betraying the Kurds at the snap of Putin’s fingers is a fan of Obama’s iran framework. In fact, Trump’s the guy being nice to Iran lately no matter what they blow up. Again, because it’s provably Iran and Syria coordinating these actions. The hijacked tanker went to which country? Russia’s got the closest real naval base, also in Syria. If you’re mad about the US being easy on Iran, it’s been a while since that was Obama’s job.

While the Kurds are being slaughtered, after Trump made a deal with them to demolish their fortifications for the “Safe” Zone, Trump loyalists lie that Trump did not betray them. Literally as the betrayed Kurds are dying and the Turkish are bracketing American soldiers with bombs, we’re told it’s not so. First line “It’s impossible to know what the future holds for the Kurds”

I grant that’s true. Because they are dead, we can’t really get into what happens next. That’s a metaphysical question.

I agree that we all knew Trump would sell out to Putin in a New York minute. Trump was on national TV colluding with Russia to dump anything classified they find in Hillary’s server, so obviously he wanted to give them something in exchange. Transactional foreign policy from a guy who, time and again, has shown he’s got no morals. 9/11 = he’s got the biggest tower. POW = Trump gets his girlfriend. Married lady = Trump moves on her like a b*tch. Safe Zone = Kill Zone.

1. The US has little influence in the region, especially after Obama. (The past 3 years after Obama, when the US military presence did help protect the Kurds, apparently doesn’t count.)

2. The Kurds were good allies but it’s time to engage with Turkey, despite objections from the US military. (Tough luck, Kurds. Tough luck, US military.)

3. The “tragic” Kurds have always been persecuted and US troops weren’t going to change that. (Therefore, I guess, Trump should not feel bad about joining in.)

4. Erdogan “called Trump’s bluff” by telling Trump Turkey was invading, causing Trump to pull out US troops. (The great negotiator.)

The author concludes with this gem:

“To the extent that Trump has harmed US credibility, he didn’t do it in Syria this week by rejecting war with Turkey. He did it last month by failing to retaliate militarily against Iran’s brazen military attack on Saudi Arabia’s oil installations. Whereas the US has no commitment to protect the Kurds, the US’s central commitment in the Middle East for the past 70 years has been the protection of Saudi oil installations and maintaining the safety of maritime routes in and around the Persian Gulf.”

Ridicule may be mankind’s most potent weapon, but the despicableness of the orange pig’s venal treachery and the shame he has brought on our country is not funny. At the same time, a good tactic is one your people enjoy. It’s a dilemma.

narciso, you say your link shows the masssacre of the Kurds was quote “made up.” Twitchy’s source is “Blue State Snooze” and they qualify their story with “AGAIN, this could be just another meme where this footage was super-imposed onto the screen to make it appear ABC News was doing something underhanded”

So Twitchy is not willing to actually investigate their allegation, ask for comment, and then deliver a proper piece of journalism. They have a hint, a rumor of dishonesty, so they run with it and you bought it 100%. Reminds me of Haiku’s link a few days ago that the reports of artillery on our troops were false. Now the US Military themselves verified the bracketing artillery.

Of course this chaos just feeds the idea of fake news, so lie or truth, Trump benefits. If no one knows anything, no one knows if Trump colluded with Russia, etc.

Also, a total of four US soldiers have been killed in Syria since 2014.
Okay, I did some checking and the number of combat deaths since 2014 is 17, of which 8 happened during Obama and 9 during Trump. Nevertheless, considering the near complete rout of the Islamic State, the benefits from removing those militant Islamists exceeded the cost to the US, IMO.

Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-ghhh) tried to crash a closed question-and-answer with Fiona Hill and select House members, but he was kicked out and appropriately so, according to the House parliamentarian. This is the same Gaetz who tried to extort Michael Cohen into not testifying before Congress the second time. An act of loyalty like that could mean there’s an opening in the White House for the Florida politician.

My guess is that Trump wants out of Syria at any cost. Most Americans might agree with getting out, but not with the “at any cost” part. Cutting and running, literally overnight, is not American. Betraying allies is not American. Participating in a genocide is not American.

But this is who Trump is. He faces re-election so his interests come first, and ending wars is something he wants to run on. It is like his businesses and bankruptcies. He filed bankruptcy when it helped him. He stiffed his creditors and walked away. He has a pattern in life and governing.

408… wouldn’t that be the Pentagon and our military leaders, Drj? Advising the president? Perhaps they’ve shared something that would give the American people a reason to continue the status quo? One of the things Trump ran on was extricating us from so-called endless wars.

What is far more impactful about Smith leaving is that it removes an extremely important level of cover for anyone else at Fox News who might have had an inclination to buck the “state-run” format there. For instance, mavericks like Bret Baier, Andrew Napolitano, and Chris Wallace no longer have the ability to point to Smith and say, “Shep said this, so that makes it okay for me to do so.”
Perhaps even more importantly, in a TV news industry where the first rule of every action is “DO NOT RISK LOSING YOUR GIG!” there is now no chance that anyone new at Fox News will dare to break from the state-run herd for fear of being run over. Even the perception that Smith has pushed out because of his criticism of the president is essentially like Trump leaving a bleeding horse’s head in the bed of every Fox employee.

For me, the only FoxNews show I’ll be watching is Special Report. Maybe.
Ziegler also noted the visit Bill Barr had at Rupert Murdoch’s house. I’m sure the AG was a good messenger boy for his boss.

The Trump “massacre” glory, in all its Trumpy glory.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vjeqd-UPCM
I didn’t vote for Trump or Hillary because I thought both would be bad America, each in their own special ways. I regret to say that I nailed it.

Ditch cable. Fox is just noise. Its competitors are just noise. Your home is interrupted with screaming commercials about Kias and cash for gold and erection meds. Drop cable and use Spotify to fill your home with music.

After that, in one of the stupidest decisions in American history, Trump betrayed a real ally

Stupidest decisions in American history? You don’t think it’s a little early for this to have earned that label? Honestly, the list of stupid things just in the last decade is nothing to sneeze at. If we find out next week the Kurds were also engaging in war crimes and atrocities are they still the good guys? After all, it was done to them (@160) and turnabout is what makes the good guys the good guys, and at least they’re fighting ISIS, and they were on our side, and only allies in the region, or something, right?

It certainly didn’t take them long to switch to Assad/Russia/Iran. It’s almost like they were using our money and influence for themselves and to support terrorism in Turkey. That’s never been a bad idea, right? We can always pretend they weren’t working with A/R/I until after we stopped protecting them.

Stupidest decisions in American history? You don’t think it’s a little early for this to have earned that label?

It’s amazing how bad a call this was. That’s because there is no conceivable American benefit. We had a sweet deal on a truly vital mission and instead of just keeping it, we betrayed a friend in a really dishonest and crappy way, ruining our reputation. It all benefits Putin and hurts American interests, which is why this is clearly a bottom 5 in American history decision.

You don’t think it’s a little early for this to have earned that label?

No.

If we find out next week the Kurds were also engaging in war crimes and atrocities are they still the good guys? After all, it was done to them (@160) and turnabout is what makes the good guys the good guys, and at least they’re fighting ISIS, and they were on our side, and only allies in the region, or something, right?

The U.S. ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, intends to tell Congress this week that the content of a text message he wrote denying a quid pro quo with Ukraine was relayed to him directly by President Trump in a phone call, according to a person familiar with his testimony.

Sondland plans to tell lawmakers he has no knowledge of whether the president was telling him the truth at that moment. “It’s only true that the president said it, not that it was the truth,” said the person familiar with Sondland’s planned testimony, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive diplomatic matters.

408… wouldn’t that be the Pentagon and our military leaders, Drj? Advising the president? Perhaps they’ve shared something that would give the American people a reason to continue the status quo? One of the things Trump ran on was extricating us from so-called endless wars.

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/14/2019 @ 9:21 am

First, I agree with extricating the US from endless wars, but not at any cost. Trump is reacting to Erdogan’s threats/promises, not formulating a plan.

But officials say the decision caught the Pentagon by surprise. Just last week, Esper told reporters the U.S. and Turkish militaries were making progress setting up a security mechanism on Turkey’s border with northeast Syria, continuing joint patrols that began last month.

Senior Pentagon leaders were unanimous in opposing the move, said one senior administration official who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive discussions.

“We were concerned, but we didn’t think [Trump] would give in,” said the official. “The entire DOD leadership was opposed to the endorsement and the withdrawal.”

The move also caught the Kurds off guard. Ahed Al Hendi, an analyst close to the Syrian Democratic Council, the political arm of the SDF, said the State Department reassured the group’s leader in a phone call ahead of the White House announcement that Turkey would not attack the Kurds. Now, U.S. troops have left the border area from Tell Abyad to Ras al-Ain, and Turkey is “on the ready,” Hendi said.

This is Trump at his worst and, when the subject is Trump, that is saying something. He enjoys making decisions but not thinking about them beforehand.

Of course “maybe not.” But he asserted it was proven, and the link he provided didn’t even try to prove it. It was knee jerk. You guys take as fact information that helps Trump, and shout fake-news at information that doesn’t help him, and it has nothing to do with the truth.

Note that I did not say I trust ABC’s reporting. I stuck with honesty about what we do and don’t know. Folks like that don’t like Trump’s hack at-all-cost defense force.

Fiona Hill, the White House’s former top Russia adviser, went to Capitol Hill on Monday where she was expected to tell House investigators about how the administration’s approach to Ukraine was affected by President Trump’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani and his efforts to have the country investigate the son of former vice president Joe Biden.
As Trump’s senior White House adviser on Russia and Europe, Hill can provide impeachment investigators with insight into how the administration’s Ukraine policy was carried out. Lawmakers are focused on whether the president abused his office by leveraging diplomatic engagement, and possibly military aid, to secure investigations that would damage the Bidens.

421… the GOP do-nothing Congress have failed. The Pentagon and our military leaders – to my knowledge – have no interest in cutting ties with Turkey or changing the status quo. It’s just same tune, same dance, different day, show us the money.

This decision may prove to be absolutely wrong and disastrous. Time will tell. IMO, we should’ve either shown our NATO ally Turkey how the hog eats the cabbage or done our best to kick them out of the alliance. We should’ve also dug the world’s longest, deepest trench and lined theses ISIS bums up, thrown them in and buried them and their dreams of 72 virgins. We should also continue to do our best to destroy Iran’s economy.

I have a new post up about the ABC News screw-up. The key thing to be aware of is the possibility that it is pro-Turkish propaganda. Some partisans will cheerfully allow themselves to be manipulated, but the rest of us should be on our guard.

@422 Can you go back and find were I said ISIS were the good guys? You can take your friends of ISIS shtick, fold up until it’s all sharp edges, and cram it where you found this good guys line.

Frosty, Fp (f27e97) — 10/14/2019 @ 10:06 am

Oh, I didn’t tell you: that’s who is free now that the Kurds, the guys fighting with us, were betrayed by Trump. If you think ISIS isn’t the good guys, then obviously you agree that it was very worthwhile to fight them, now that you’re aware of the main consequence of Trump’s incredibly bizarre Pro Islamist strategy.

While Trump hailed an increase in agricultural purchases as “the greatest and biggest deal ever made for our Great Patriot Farmers in the history of our Country,” China’s state-run media only said the two sides “agreed to make joint efforts toward eventually reaching an agreement.”

In other words, the agreement China made was to agree to try make a deal. In other words, there was no agreement, so Trump lied, just like he lied last August when he said he called the Chinese about trade talks (link). And in northeastern Syria…
Trump lied, Kurds died.
And while we’re on the subject of Trump’s wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling dishonesty, the rate of his lies is still increasing, now at 13½ per day (link). Even if the DDID is Deep State and Establishment and biased and three-quarters mistaken, that means he’s still lying 3.4 times a day, every single day. How is it that people still believe the words coming out of his mouth? Why aren’t more people presuming his statements false until proven true?

@437 You’ve got a skill at reading into my comments things you want to see. I have concerns about who we’re siding with and I don’t buy into the best allies in the world propaganda. I don’t have to sell my soul to ISIS or the Russians for that. I don’t even have to be a DJT superfan. Isn’t standing against Trump supposed to be about values and principles? Is it really so hard to wrap your noggin around that? Is your world really defined by this sort of binary with-me-or-against-me mindset?

@439 And now you’re just being completely dishonest. This comment was about families of ISIS being detained. Are you in the group that wants to interpret families, including women and children, as ISIS and treat them as such? Do you want to re-read @229 before commenting?

You can cram the “own it or condemn it” in the same place where “Frosty is glad ISIS escaped” belongs.

Human rights groups have been describing atrocities perpetrated by all sides in this conflict. I think some hypotheticals are reasonable.

It’s important that you’re not clicking on Turkish and Russian* propaganda, and there’s a lot of it out there. HRW assessed all the groups in Syria, and you can judge for yourself.
* Which I ran across over 2 years ago (http://theforvm *dot* org/rojava)

You can cram the “own it or condemn it” in the same place where “Frosty is glad ISIS escaped” belongs.

I apologize for being so direct and I can appreciate why this wasn’t kind or generous. Just bear in mind that ISIS will kill people now, just as Trump’s faith he will be covered for even this terrible decision is killing Kurds. It’s not OK with me to cover for this in any way. You described some of the worse consequences as something you’re “glad” about, and you probably wouldn’t be glad if Obama had done this.

Let’s try to remember the ground rules… it’s difficult at times to not respond in kind to obvious insults (don’t I know it) but it can’t be that hard to maintain civility in the face of petulance and childishness. Arguing with strangers on the internet is not something a mature adult should aspire to, lol.

@437 If you’re really concerned about fighting ISIS in the region then the Kurds aren’t going to solve the problem. This is basically a three-way proxy war. The Turks are backing ISIS, the Russians/Iranians are backing Assad, and we’re back the Kurds.

Assad is trying to stay in power and the Turks are trying to regain the caliphate and expand. What is the US doing? If we are fighting ISIS then we should be fighting the Turks. The Russians/Iranians aren’t pro-ISIS and if Assad came out on top ISIL wouldn’t be a thing. But the current narrative is that we can’t let Putin get what he wants so we’re also fighting the Russians by proxy through Assad. What is the priority, ISIS or the Russians/Iranians gaining more influence in Syria? We can try to do both, i.e. fight the Turks and the Russians/Iranians but the Kurds are mainly interested in fighting the Turks and even if they were good to go otherwise 1000 guys and the Kurds wouldn’t be enough to offset both the Russian/Iranians and the Turks in the region. We can keep pumping resources into that but at some point, it’s good money after bad.

Now, I’m on board with fighting the Turks. Call it ISIS, ISIL, Islamic extremism, or whatever but they are part of a push to destabilize all of Europe. I’m also on board with keeping Russia contained and fighting the Iranians. I’d like to see a plan that might work.

If your plan is Trump is awful because this thing with the Kurds was working out so well. Then I’m going to point and laugh. Feel free to read this as me being a DJT superfan because I think pissing on a bonfire will put it out.

You described some of the worse consequences as something you’re “glad” about, and you probably wouldn’t be glad if Obama had done this.

I’ve read several of these articles and it’s obvious from the headline that you are to assume these are ISIS fighters being detained and that this action has released ISIS fighters. If you read several paragraphs into most of them you see that this might not be the case. There are situations where these are camps meant to contain ISIS supporters. Note the use of supporters instead of fighters. In some cases, the article goes so far as to describe these as detention camps for the families of ISIS members. When I saw the first articles on this I thought it was very bad. No one wants ISIS fighters above ground. But when I actually read the articles I didn’t really appreciate the misdirection.

I’ve very clearly said that I’m talking about families being detained. I’m not talking about cases of actual ISIS fighters being released.

You are very clearly saying that I’m glad ISIS fighters were released. This simply is not the case.

It is a common fault of both the Obama and Trump administrations that they have not educated America about what is happening in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and other places our troops are engaged against jihadists.

In Obama’s case, he was dragged unwillingly back into a fight against the “junior varsity” ISIS after he disastrously snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq. It was inevitable that he would need to downplay the consequences of his original mistake.

In Trump’s case, he has repeatedly made uninformed political decisions contrary to near unanimous advice from people who actually know something about the situation on the ground. He wants to cut and run NOW, so he isn’t interested in anyone hearing the reasons why that’s a bad idea.

Both of them, in other words, just wanted it to go away, and weren’t much concerned about how that came about as long as they had political cover. The resulting information vacuum has led to the perception that this all some aimless and nebulous “endless war”, when in fact our military has been pursuing a coherent strategy against the mortal enemies of this country very successfully and at near minimal cost in terms of casualties.

A president whose highest priority was the security of the United States would explain to the American people what we are doing, what will happen if we stop doing it, and why the present strategy is the most economical way to protect American lives.

The jihadists aren’t going to stop fighting and go home just because we do. Obama learned this the hard way, and Trump – cheered on by supporters who should know better – is incapable of understanding that lesson.

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