The Greeks Get It

Posted on May 24, 2010

Here’s to the Greeks. They know what to do when corporations pillage and loot their country. They know what to do when Goldman Sachs and international bankers collude with their power elite to falsify economic data and then make billions betting that the Greek economy will collapse. They know what to do when they are told their pensions, benefits and jobs have to be cut to pay corporate banks, which screwed them in the first place. Call a general strike. Riot. Shut down the city centers. Toss the bastards out. Do not be afraid of the language of class warfare—the rich versus the poor, the oligarchs versus the citizens, the capitalists versus the proletariat. The Greeks, unlike most of us, get it.

The former right-wing government of Greece lied about the size of the country’s budget deficit. It was not 3.7 percent of gross domestic product but 13.6 percent. And it now looks like the economies of Spain, Ireland, Italy and Portugal are as bad as Greece’s, which is why the euro has lost 20 percent of its value in the last few months. The few hundred billion in bailouts for other faltering European states, like our own bailouts, have only forestalled disaster. This is why the U.S. stock exchange is in free fall and gold is rocketing upward. American banks do not have heavy exposure in Greece, but Greece, as most economists concede, is only the start. Wall Street is deeply invested in other European states, and when the unraveling begins the foundations of our own economy will rumble and crack as loudly as the collapse in Athens. The corporate overlords will demand that we too impose draconian controls and cuts or see credit evaporate. They have the money and the power to hurt us. There will be more unemployment, more personal and commercial bankruptcies, more foreclosures and more human misery. And the corporate state, despite this suffering, will continue to plunge us deeper into debt to make war. It will use fear to keep us passive. We are being consumed from the inside out. Our economy is as rotten as the economy in Greece. We too borrow billions a day to stay afloat. We too have staggering deficits, which can never be repaid. Heed the dire rhetoric of European leaders.

“The euro is in danger,” German Chancellor Angela Merkel told lawmakers last week as she called on them to approve Germany’s portion of the bailout plan. “If we do not avert this danger, then the consequences for Europe are incalculable, and then the consequences beyond Europe are incalculable.”

Beyond Europe means us. The right-wing government of Kostas Karamanlis, which preceded the current government of George Papandreou, did what the Republicans did under George W. Bush. They looted taxpayer funds to enrich their corporate masters and bankrupt the country. They stole hundreds of millions of dollars from individual retirement and pension accounts slowly built up over years by citizens who had been honest and industrious. They used mass propaganda to make the population afraid of terrorists and surrender civil liberties, including habeas corpus. And while Bush and Karamanlis, along with the corporate criminal class they abetted, live in unparalleled luxury, ordinary working men and women are told they must endure even more pain and suffering to make amends. It is feudal rape. And there has to be a point when even the American public—which still believes the fairy tale that personal will power and positive thinking will lead to success—will realize it has been had.

We have seen these austerity measures before. Latin Americans, like the Russians, were forced by the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank to gut social services, end subsidies on basic goods and food, and decimate the income levels of the middle class—the foundation of democracy—in the name of fiscal responsibility. Small entrepreneurs, especially farmers, were wiped out. State industries were sold off by corrupt government officials to capitalists for a fraction of their value. Utilities and state services were privatized.

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What is happening in Greece, what will happen in Spain and Portugal, what is starting to happen here in states such as California, is the work of a global, white-collar criminal class. No government, including our own, will defy them. It is up to us. Barack Obama is simply the latest face that masks the corporate state. His administration serves corporate interests, not ours. Obama, like Goldman Sachs or Citibank, does not want the public to see how the Federal Reserve Bank acts as a private account and ATM machine for Wall Street at our expense. He, too, has helped orchestrate the largest transference of wealth upward in American history. He serves our imperial wars, refuses to restore civil liberties, and has not tamed our crippling deficits. His administration gutted regulatory agencies that permitted BP to turn the Gulf of Mexico into a toxic swamp. The refusal of Obama to intervene in a meaningful way to save the gulf’s ecosystem and curtail the abuses of the natural gas and oil corporations is not an accident. He knows where power lies. BP and its employees handed more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

Dear Mr. Hedges,
Here in Canada, the mainstream media keeps repeating the message that Greece has created its own economic woes through a culture of avoiding state taxation as well as rampant corruption within their bureaucracy. You have claimed that this is a protest against the actions of foreign speculators. So who exactly is to blame? Do the Greek workers share some complicity in their current affairs by not managing their society more efficiently or honestly. Being a Greek myself, I know that we have a cultural tendency to trick our way out of our responsibilities. In fact, if you read Zorba the Greek, you’ll see that we admire such conduct. I would like to know your opinion on this matter, and thanks for all the great journalism.
Peter

Greed and the desire for money is NOT part of “human nature” it’s just not. Furthermore, people generally want to move past the monetary system altogether. It is just a burden, a hurdle you have to get over to do what you really want. People naturally want to take care of and secure theirs and the needs of their own for as far into the future as they can foresee. However, ,money is that foreign object lying between us and the abundance the earth offers. Have you heard the expressions “money is no object” or someone being so rich they will never have to “worry about money” ever again? That’s because it’s just in the way of our pursuit of happiness, rich or poor.

Oh, and u might note that he thinks the reservoir could cover as much as FORTY PERCENT of the Gulf.
Hmmmm,...must have been a hell of a lot of plant and animal activity down there at 40,000 feet and
perhaps FAR deeper!

Shenonymous:
Thanx a lot for your indepth commentary…My computer’s been down for a week so haven’t been able
to read this til now.
It does appear that we have very similar thoughts and philosophies as I was pretty conservative/ libertarian most of my life but have come to realize that “proper” regulations on govt, military and commerce are an absolute requisite.
The underlying dilemma is just exactly what constitutes ‘proper’ regulation. To wit, take campaign finance reform. Most reasonable folk clearly see that this is absolutely essential but how far to to go? And how about lobbying?
I’d say we must have term limits and no retired congressperson can be allowed to lobby. Funding
must be precisely limited and only govt funded.
But what are the chances of any of this occurring
anytime soon? Slim to none from what I can see
which leaves me quite cynical and pessimistic.

Re Salbuchi, I have seen a couple more clips but since I just got back up with my computer, haven’t
had a chance to really do the in depth procedure
required.
I completely agree with u that everyone has a piece
of truth and wisdom and it is our goal to use our own wisdom to decipher and collect the jigsaw pieces to complete our own ‘puzzle’. Even tho I’ve become considerably more cynical, I still relish some naivete and faith in constructive thought and action which is why I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to people like Salbuchi.
Dr Nicholas Hagger is another whom I have followed
for a considerably longer time frame..(four years)...His last book I read is ‘The Syndicate’ which he wrote around six yrs ago. It’s quite prescient from my perspective and I highly recommend it if you haven’t perused it.
The underlying issue with him is that I haven’t been able to discern any substantial solutions from his research and communications which is why I respect those such as Salbuchi even if some of those solutions don’t make a lot of sense.
Re G Edward Griffin, in my Hippy days, I used to negate people like him when I’d find out they had a background such as his John Bircher ilk. But I’ve learned more from those whom I initially diametrically opposed such as G. Hegel, Marx, Albert Pike, Manly Hall, Blavatski, Glenn Beck, Thom Hartmann, Icke, etc.
Glenn Beck and Thom Hartmann are perfect examples:
They both think outside the box while at the same time consistently rant along the Right and Left
nonsensical lines that so many cannot seem to extricate themselves from. But of course, neither Beck nor Hartmann seem to have much grasp on the gravity of just how far the tentacles of the Globalist Elites have reached. Hartmann did have
the temerity of interviewing Dr Hagger one time a couple yrs ago but has not had him return even though I emailed Hartmann a dozen or more times and Hagger is a very eloquent interviewee.
Glenn Beck wouldn’t DARE have him on at the risk of losing some of his corporatist sponsors and I have to assume this is the same reason Hartmann hasn’t had him back on.
So, I’ll continue to research Salbuchi and if u happen to come across anyone with a solid piece of a viable solution, please let me know or give me a link. Here is Hagger’s URL:http://www.nicholashagger.co.uk

It is difficult for me to say, archivesDave, who one ought to listen to
for solutions. There are many voices out there. I haven’t heard one
that seems to have a synoptic handle on at least the world financial
conundrum. I am turned off by glib analyses. What is the measure
of good advice? Then a lot depends on one’s own favorite pasture.
I tend to be liberal, but not radical leftist. I tend to be more capitalist
(whatever that means today) see value in free markets and
entreprenuership, but see the need for strong regulation mainly
because men cannot control their greed. But I am not in the
conservative camp for a number of reasons, not the least of which I
think Republicans, from listening to what their politicians say, are out of
touch with the needs of the ordinary person. But Aristotle said
everyman has a little bit of the truth. It is damn hard to tell what bit of
truth each man has though. Bit he was right, and there is really no way
to dispute it, then those with opposing views each have some truth. I
listen to arguments from all sides. Then what seems most rational to
me is who I think has it closest to being right. Isn’t that the way
everyone does it?

I do feel in my bones that when there is an overly passionate call for
rebellion there is something missing, reasoned thinking, meaning one
must put the tin cap on one’s head and hope the anomaly goes away.
Violence does not have a place in human relations any more, even
though there is. Definitions of a few things need tightened up, such as
what does it really mean to be free, what does liberty mean, rights,
egalitarianism, morals? How do we overcome ethnic ideologic
differences? These concepts are still pretty fuzzy and are at the heart
of all human interactive conflicts. Old definitions do not seem to be
working in today’s global condition. Calm, sound reasoning, and
progressive dialogue among people seem to be the imperatives,
discussions without rancor or belittling of any position. Assume all
have a valid position, give respect, even though there are very opposite
views. Then subject each theory for usefulness to the general
population by applying it to individuals. A generous but objective
sampling, meaning a variety of classes of people, would give some
picture of what would work and what wouldn’t. If it cannot be applied
directly to individuals, no theory is useful. It seems theories are fine to
get a general description of reality, but reality is when the description
fits what is really the case, when real people’s lives are the stakes, not
what is at stake.

What do you think? What is it about Salbuchi’s call to action do you
think has merit (even though it is impassioned, it is still inchoate)? I’d
listen if anything of substance were said, because then it really could be
evaluated.

Shenonymous:
Can’t really give u any concrete opinions yet since
it will take me some time to do some serious reading and research.
I certainly respect your opinion tho and will eventually get back to u on this.
Who do you think has the best solution(s)?

archiveDave, here is another bit of Salbuchi’s blather. He appropriated
the name of the movement he is fostering from the Spanish Civil War
republicans who lost that war by the way, but who called their efforts
the Second Republic. So I am thinking Mr. Salbuchi is an overheated
conservative ideologue. I am not saying that Franco’s fascism was a
better solution but that is besides the point I am making that Salbuchi
is somewhat of a counterfeit rebel. Who exactly does he want his call
to revolution to excite?

G.W Hitler:
HEEEY, thanks a lot, I needed that!!!!
I had seen that a yr or so ago but didn’t know it was still circulating.
Didn’t know that you were aware of Crowley and Rense.
My hat now comes off to you.
Guess only a DNA test would prove if there is any
meat to the theory of Barbara Bush being his daughter huh?
Here’s one for you:
Check out Prince William’s B. date and then co-ordinate that with Dec 21, 2012. He was born on the Summer Solstice in 82 and will be exactly 33 1/2
on Winter Solstice 2012. Hmmmm, the exact age that
Christ began His ministry…Hmmm.
Perhaps Barbara is a distant relative…That would
be a hoot!

Shenonymous:
I take my hat off to you in your quest and will definitely get back to you after I’ve had a chance
to digest everything that you’ve covered here as well
as peruse some more clips and writings of Salbuchi.

archivesDave, I did ruminate over Argentinian Salbuchi’s
unrestrained monologue replete with uncountable slogans, popular
sayings, and quotes from movies and poets. Actually I watched all
three of his videos about the Second Republic. I have a different
opinion than you seem to have. You said, …”At least this man is
making a serious attempt to come up with viable proposals and not
just run around screaming “the sky is falling, the sky is falling”.

I disagree that he made any proposal that was really any definite action
for any improvement. I believe he was exactly saying the sky is falling.
He gave an empassioned description then really at the end we see that
he was making a pitch for Republican conservative values and a bow to
God. Salbuchi says all (except the elites who are unforgivable) need to
unify. Of 6.7+ billion people what does he suppose could be a strategy
to unify 6+ billion people who have different values? He infers that a
power elite wants to impose a world government on the people of the
world, which might be the case but it really is preposterous given 6.7+
billion people not all of which are stupid and ignorant and uneducated.
What you said, ” Unless/until we can put down some of our poses and
guises and express a sincere desire to listen non?judgmentally…” is
vague. What poses and what guises? There are a lot of us who do and
express a sincere desire to listen non-judgmentally about a lot of
things, when something is actually said and not just the appearance of
having said something.

I agree that pre-judgment can be a problem as well as gluttony. But
accusing an amorphous “all” of first being self-serving, or
contradictorily, then of being slaves, then he crosses into fallacies and
sophistry.

His solution is the standard revolutionary rant that the leftists used
ages ago. I’m afraid this guy is not going to start a world movement,
nor any action at the local town level.

Shenonymous:
I just made some comments about a similar subject
and a similar situation over on Rape and Spillage
that u might want to peruse. It explains where I’m coming from a little more succinctly.
All of us are so conditioned to persistently judge everything and everyone consistently; I’m trying to break from this self defeating habit.
In AA (Alcoholics Anon.) they have an expression and
philosophy that I learned and am attempting to apply in my quest: “Take what u want/need and leave the rest.”
When I read or watch a clip such as Salbuchi’s,
I make a disciplined attempt not to make any judgments until I’ve had a chance to ruminate
on it for awhile as well as run it by others which
is what I’m doing.
At least this man is making a serious attempt to come up with viable proposals and not just run around screaming “the sky is falling, the sky is falling”.
Unless/until we can put down some of our poses and guises and express a sincere desire to listen non
judgmentally (which I have yet to do I admit), we
will continue to throw the deck chairs at each other
as the Titanic continues on to the iceberg dead ahead.

Heir Hitler:
Looks like I’ve touched a nerve there, and talk about the pot calling the kettle ‘black’...
I’m reinforcing my previous accusations as well as accusing you of PROJECTING.
Obfuscations and red herrings, you’re a master, along with both Pauls, Maxwell Jordan, Icke, Obama, Cheney, Clinton, et al.
You’ve either read every book by Manly Hall and Blavatsky or you have absolutely no clue as to whom
I’m referring.

I watched the youtube.
I abhor the metaphor of war to be or not to be Salbuchi has
characterized his desire for change. It is as predatory as much
as he accuses of the power elites. The call for violent revolution
ironically claims they, the power elite, are stronger than he wants to
portray. Perhaps a major reconstruction has reached its time, perhaps
it is time for an active revolution. But activity also means using the
power of reasoning. Salbuchi’s threats to the power elite is rhetorical at
best and he has not said anything constructive. I am totally repelled by
the excessive verbal images of war he uses over and over. He is
obviously appealing to base emotions and a natural viciousness that he
thinks is the human psyche. Real change only comes when ideas
become infused in the thinking of the people. If you want the people to
have better benefits of life then plant good ideas in their heads not the
garbage both the power elite and the Second Republic are planting.
Why are there not billions of people rioting in the streets for what he is
talking about? I think he needs an umbrella for all that pissing in the
wind (excuse my French).

The next three to five years? He is not saying what resistance is to be.
It is all rhetoric. It sounds more like demagogic promises rather than
intelligent solution. It is a ranting for anarchy which would lead to
misery not a better life. Find at least one constructive sentence in his
entire soliloquy.

Salbuchi’s prescription:
1. Understand (ambiguous) Only that the power elite are bad dudes.
2. Take country back (ambiguous) – rage rage rage against what? What
exactly?

If one is to effect cataclysmic change one must be very clear what that
change is to be. Salbuchi sounds like a raving cheerleader. A wannabe
warrior. Bloody battles and all. It is a gladiator mentality. It is the
dog-eat-dog philosophy of Social Darwinism and it is a theater of
absurdity. If it is ‘only’ a metaphor, be careful you don’t sink in the
crap that is being expressed.

There is a solution and it is not brutal bloodshed.

Among other words of Socrates, (Plato’s Phaedo), “Wars and
factions and fightings have no other source than the body and its lusts.
For it is for the getting of wealth that all our wars arise; and we are
compelled to get wealth because of our body, to whose service we are
slaves.” Make no mistake that those who would go to physical war are
also have their eyes on acquisition. Justice, absolute justice is only
achieved when desired with the mind alone, “the very light of the mind
in its clearness penetrates into the very fight of truth in each.”

I think the biggest secret around here is that everything ABIOTICdave is posting and linking to is NO BIG SECRET. Thanks for busting the springs on the obviousness meter there, Dave. I think I have conspiracy fatigue. Good work!

On second thought, perhaps you are in reality a plant here on Truthdig working for the very shadow organization you’ve been railing against. It’s so clear now; I don’t know how I could’ve missed it! Your objective is to create so much conspiracy fatigue that the otherwise vigilant and civic-minded readers of Truthdig will be overwhelmed by the sheer hopelessness of resistance to the diabolical machinations of the Global Corporatist Elites (or Glob Corp for short), formerly known as the Global Organization of Power or GOP, so named to confuse those who are “following the money” or FTM (btw). And with Truthdig out of the way, the final impediment to globalized currency will have fallen. Finally, the true face of Glob Corp can be revealed. And that face will be. . . THE FRANKLIN MINT!!!

Yes, only those with forethought enough to have already converted a significant part of their personal wealth into coins* commemorating our Masonic Overlords will be given a place in this brave new world. And a cryogenically preserved Ayn Rand will be retrieved from her patient orbit, awakened from her icy stasis, and placed upon the THRONE OF MAJESTY.

*Struck only in the 1 troy oz denomination, which has a nominal face value of one dollar and is guaranteed to contain one troy ounce of 99.9% pure silver.

Heir Hitler:
First of all, we have reached agreement on one issue.
That thar curtain is most definitely tattered and ready to disintegrate. And folks like Salbuchi, Russian scientists and a huge number of other international researchers are assisting.
Even some of the ‘Globalist Elites’ have come out
openly declaring this is the ONLY way to save the planet.
Glad that u brought up Robert Wilson. Here’s a pretty good link:
<http://deoxy.org/raw.htm>
And while you’re at it, pull up some of Adrian
Salbuchi’s clips on youtube.
BTW, Still awaiting with baited breath for your
further comments and response to my abiotic query.

You act like you have some unique gift for peering behind the curtain. But if you look more closely, you’ll find that the curtain is a tattered and threadbare rag, badly soiled by the grubby hands of every tin-foil hatter who took a peek before you.

What’s the big conspiracy, Dave? Is it that obscenely wealthy and powerful people will do pretty much anything to protect and increase their wealth and power? WOW!!! Thanks for that esoteric bit of information. Nobody posting here at Truthdig ever suspected as much.

Now put down the Robert Anton Wilson and move away from the ledge. . .

Heir Hitler:
When I stated the Globalists are 90% of their way
to achieving their goal, that doesn’t mean they have a considerable ways to go.
I see that once again you have totally evaded all of my issues that I addressed to you on the other
thread and have to surmise that being the suckee,
you have bought into some or much of the Globalist
agenda. (I’d also like to know how that ‘crow’ tastes…)
Until you are willing to give me some pragmatic answers to my honest queries, I won’t respond to you here.
Please, either go back over to Scheer’s ‘Spillage’
or the ‘McChristal’ column and carry on with a coherent.
You may also wish to respond to my link posted
on the composition of the highly toxic dispersant
Corexit as well: No conspiracy here either, n’est pas?

“These shadow puppetmasters have now accomplished
90% or more of their nefarious goals and most all of the Right, Left, Progressives, Libertarians are still majoring on the minors and minoring on the majors.”—ABIOTICdave

Wow! 90% or MORE!!! Is that by the number, weight, or volume of those nefarious goals? Or is that a value reflecting total projected misery? I ask because depending on the unit of measure, that percentage could inflate or underestimate the true impact of aggregate flagitiousness to date. I mean, suppose these folks had a total of 10 nefarious goals, nine of which were very small in scope, adding up to only 25% of total villainy based on projected misery. Were those the nine goals that had been met to date, one could accurately state that this alleged cabal had completed 90% of its nefarious goals based on the total number of goals. However, based on total projected misery, the alleged cabals misdeeds would hardly be more baneful than the last theatrical release featuring Keanu Reeves.

I would advise that in the future you be mindful of how you quantify the nefariousness of shadow organizations. After all, you don’t want folks lumping you in with the tin-foil-hat crowd.

I am Greek, and I would just like to say that when the Greeks are under attack, they fight back. We always do. The past months, there were days when you were afraid to go downtown because of the riots. I was genuinly afraid for my life. And it’s not because of the rioters, it is because of the police. The police here in Greece are the most stupid people of them all. And they also use expired smoke grenades. These are extremely hazardous. And this is another way of saving money… They don’t buy new equipment. As I said, the rioters don’t harm other people, the police does. They are hardly trained and they think their shields can protect them from anything. Last December they killed an innocent 17-year-old because he was near a riot. He wasn’t in it, he was in a road near it with a friend of his. And they shot him and killed him. In the end, they just lost their jobs. No jail, no fines, nothing. The Greek Government is a….

As I read this article, I am listening to the news on the G20 protest violence. But all I hear from the media, government, police forces is a common thread that people who are frustrated and disenfranchised using violence are thugs, meanwhile the world leaders that sit behind their fences are not being labeled according to their own crimes. And as the 150th Canadian soldier dies today in an aggresion towards the Afghan people, I wonder if 4 torched cop cars is enough to express the angst that is well due to the corporate dictatorship that now shapes public discussion. I stand in solidarity with those in Greece and refuse to be shaped by the slogans and the ad hoc attacks the establishment uses to label those who express their discontent. As I listen to family members and friends get enraged at the actions of protesters as they deface the corporate images that haunt their downtown cores, and burn the symbols of repression that have been bought by the governments for their own protection, I wonder why they chose only to bark the messages given to them by the media, and not side with the struggle these protesters are fighting for them. So as we watch the 24 hour media coverage of protests mimic that of Orwellian Two Minute Hates, I hope more of us take time to try and educate an ignorant public that prefers to listen to the sound bites instead of spending the hours digesting the literature necissary to understand and thus comment upon such demonstrations.

Inherit The Wind:
So “just for shits and giggles” huh…That tells it
all right there!!
Your mind is totally made up and you’re very comfortable remaining in ‘the choir’.
You remind me of some of the last Church leaders
who refused to accept the fact that the earth revolved around the sun and castigated Galileo.
And you probably consider Jesse Ventura and Joseph
Farrell as wing nuts too right? ...Well carry on
in your little fantasy world Bro.
*******************************************

LOL! Oh, thank you for the belly-laugh that I got from this post!

Let’s get our scientific analogies straight: You are the astrologer trying to teach the astronomer how the universe works!

It is all in the spewing! When I spew things they are absolute facts for I know nothing but absolute fact, otherwise why would I spew something which is not fact? It becomes another thing when my spewing dost not seem fact to the majority of people who listen to my spews. My premise is; this is the case for all things spewable, from religion, politics and Baseball!

Never question my spews for they are the gospel of everything that is right though it would be prudent for all not to mix my spews with from my opinion.

Inherit The Wind:
So “just for shits and giggles” huh…That tells it
all right there!!
Your mind is totally made up and you’re very comfortable remaining in ‘the choir’.
You remind me of some of the last Church leaders
who refused to accept the fact that the earth revolved around the sun and castigated Galileo.
And you probably consider Jesse Ventura and Joseph
Farrell as wing nuts too right? ...Well carry on
in your little fantasy world Bro.

The last two sentences in your above Re have said it all. And I repeat the two sentences below for emphasis:

Quote
======

We will not stop until total globalpower is ours,even if it means destrying much of the life on our earth and even the earth itself. What is not realized is that in pursing this goal we shall also destroy ourselves in more than one way.

Unquote
========

That is what had happened to the Soviet empire: entrenched in a quagmire in Afganistan for 10 years,world ambition for burrying capitalism by converting the people of the globe to communism;and out of luck and perhaps because of negligence,the Chernobyl’s nuclear accident/disaster took place in the 1990s-all these factors combined had contributed to the decadence from within the Soviet power structure and the inevitable demise of the Soviet Communist empire was the finality of the ACT. When Mikhael Gorbetchov realized what was going on,he tried his famous reforms in Prestrokia and Glasnot to revive the Soviet power,it was too little too late,because the spirit of the empire had already gone,leaving behind a useless and terribly injured body,in need for much repairs.

tihsstaezevahc and jay:
Re Chavez et al…
For a little shock, google “hugo chavez freemason”.
Then do the same for Castro.
Then do it for Stalin, Lenin, Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman, Bush(es), Ron and Rand Paul, Glenn Beck and MARX!
Gee, now I wonder what that could be telling us: U guys just might want to concoct those aluminum thinking hats and take a look at some of Jesse Ventura’s interviews.

**********************************************

So just for shits and giggles I tried Chavez and Stalin. What I found was that according to the wing-nut crack-pot sites, every major leader is/was a Free Mason. However, according to the legitimate sites, as LOUDLY avowed Atheists, Stalin and Lenin would NEVER have been admitted.

Conclusion: Since ArchivesDave expects us the to take the wing-nut crack-pot sites seriously…his assertions can be discounted completely.

We shall not stop until total global power is ours,
even if it means destroying much of life on our earth
and even the earth itself

Of course your are correct Sodium-Na as to why true socialism shall not work at this time. Greed and selfishness are much in evidence now days and even
presented as admirable qualities. That is why capitalism has dug it’s own grave but many cannot see that. Organizations, many of them religious, have tried to eradicate these characteristics that are so embedded in human nature, only resulting in the manifestation of more greed and selfishness. Those who are now studying and experimenting with genetic engineering would do well if these qualities were looked upon as desirable. I doubt that is the case for as it has been bluntly put, survival is everything and some feel having greed and being selfish more insures survival. The paradox is, that outlook destroys most completely. Corporations are ravaging the earth as is attested to by BP’s destruction of sea life in Louisiana; Iraq and Afghanistan are now basket cases. Yet, we continue and if you look between the lines, Iran is next. We will not stop until total global power is ours, even if it means destroying much of the life on our earth and even the earth itself. What is not realized is that in pursing this goal we shall also destroy ourselves in more than one way.

Although your above Re is off-topic,I have felt it deserves some comments from my part because you have sounded so sincere,regardless whether I agree or disagree with the content of your post. My comments:

(1) I review some Arab and Israeli newspapers,
through the internet,on bi-weekly basis,just to keep abreast of what is going-on,on both sides of the miserable antagonists. I review Al-jazera websites daily.

(2) Based on comment (1) spelled out above,the polling statistics of Zoghby’s organization which you had used as a tool to prove your points of views seemed to be correct: America’s standing/reputation in the Arab world is regrettably low-in fact,very low due to Cheney-Bush-Neoconservatives’s blunder in destroying Iraq,a functioning society under Saddam Hussein’s regime,inspite of his Iron-Fist-Rule. Add to that,the Cheney-Bush’s acquiescence of what the Israeli military’s slaughters in Lebanon in 2006(Israel-Hesbullah war) and the end of 2008 and beginning of 2009 war in Gaza had done. People there do blame America for Israel’s bellicosity and most unhelpful belligrent behaviors since American military machines,ranging from jet fighters to tanks and to phosphorous bombs that killed some of their brothren en masse.

(3) Yes,as you stated,President Obama has certainly improved America’s image/reputation in the Arab/Muslim world since he took over as President since January 22,2009,especially after delivering conciliatory speeches in Turkey and Egypt,respectively,in 2009. The people want to see President Obama transforms his words into deeds. Hence,they are skiptical of what they had heard, because a year later,since the speeches were made,the whole problems of the Middle East were/are still in square one and getting even worse in every passing day.

(4) Zoghby’s remarkable and troubling statistics are not the first polling activitiy to show unfavorable conclusion about the U.S. Dr.Shibli Talhamy of University of Maryland had shown similar polling results after the destruction of Iraq,may be two or three years ago (I had seen Dr.Talmamy discussing his statistic on C-Span cable TV then,but I cannot remember exactly when). In other words,nothing has really changed in the minds and hearts of the people of the Arab world. President Obama has his work cut-off for him.

Finally,I must admit that,in the beginning,as I read your posts,few months ago,I did not take what you had posted seriously. However,as I continued reading your posts,whenever I had time,I had gradually become convinced you were/are not that carried-away-ideologue of socialism,as I first incorrectly imagined,nor are you the ideologue who needed a professional psychiatric help either,as one repulsive poster had wrongly fantasized.On the cotrary:

YOU ARE FOR REAL….

I say the last comment spelled out in capital alphabets NOT because I,of a sudden,agree with your relentless push for socialism,however noble it sounded to be. Not at all. But,because a TRUE SOCIALISM will never succeed as long as the human miserable conditions are badly infested with GREED and SELFISHNESS. I cannot recall where I read an intelligent observant who said that the hungry poor would not have been hungry and poor,if there were no filthy rich,slick con men and women,in this world. Does that sound familiar at Wall Street?

Although its essence is noble,socialism will remain a wishful thinking and a pipe dream,as long as the GREED and SELFIHNESS of the con men and women of this world rule,and,it seems so far,rule they will.

However,I wish you the best of success in your doing—it-alone-burden!

“Who knows where the road will lead us,only a fool would say”-A Frank Sanatra’s old love song.

Perhaps,I am that fool,Tennessee-Socialist,not you. Keep them coming and I promise to read them and even file the ones that I feel having a touch of novelty.

tihsstaezevahc and jay:
Re Chavez et al…
For a little shock, google “hugo chavez freemason”.
Then do the same for Castro.
Then do it for Stalin, Lenin, Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman, Bush(es), Ron and Rand Paul, Glenn Beck and MARX!
Gee, now I wonder what that could be telling us: U guys just might want to concoct those aluminum thinking hats and take a look at some of Jesse Ventura’s interviews.

A catastrophic defeat for Chavez in the region in the Colombian elections today.

It seems that Mr. Chavez arch-nemesis Juan Manuel Santos is going to be the next President of Colombia. A June 20th win seems likely in the election runoff. With more 98% of the precincts reporting Mr. Santos obtained a commanding lead of 46.6% just 3.4% points short of the 50% threshold. His closet rival Antanas Mockus could only muster 21.5% with Vargas a distant 3rd at 10.1% In spite of the interference by Mr. Chavez, and to a lesser degree by Chavez cohort Mr. Correa, it appears that this was a referendum for exiting President Alvaro Uribe. Uribe has the highest popularity rating of any President in the Western Hemisphere. Chavez threatened war if Santos won as way to instill fear in Colombian voters.

As you know Jay\‘s been on a secret mission to Caracas for the past few days. In spite Chavista moles planted in this thread that have have attempted to censure Jay\‘s \“freedom of speech\” Jay has been able to get his message out to lover\‘s and supporters of truth and free speech using an old Dell laptop that was a gift from his teenage kid. And by using me his faithful twin brother.

I asked Jay what he meant by having his \“freedom of speech\” censured and he explained to me that this is a common phenomena of intolerance that he has experienced not just in left wing oriented blogs but he has experienced similar censures on right wing blogs. So Jay says there is irreconcilable differences at both intolerant extremes of the political spectrum.

Both on lefty and righty boards it usually starts with pettiness and insults from extreme ideologues when Jay posts his indisputable objective facts totally refuting the made up facts posted by righties and lefties ideologues.

Unlike his critics Jay is his own man and follows only what his conscience and natural instincts for social and economic justice dictate to him. Jay does not follow the line or the rhetoric of ideologues or any individual for that matter like followers in this board that have to identify themselves by identifying with these ideologues and demoguoges.

As per Jay the way to truly be free is not idolize or put on a pedestal any one person. Only the ideals of justice and fair play deserve that pedestal, the ideal not the person. When this mindset is internalize Jay believes that the individual really becomes an individual, truly free to from the influence of demagogues.

His secret location in Caracas has been compromised by the the same individual that attempted to have him censured here on this board. The mere fact that Jay is able to come in here and have his message come out is a testament that free speech cannot be stifled by censure.

Jay is in Colombia now. In spite of the restrictions imposed by Chavez at the border Jay was able to bribe Venezuelan border guards and crossed the Simon Bolivar Bridge over the Tachira River which is the internationa border between the 2 countries. Last I heard Jay was in Cucuta, Colombia.

ofersince:
I absolutely agree with u re false flags and red herrings, both essential tools of the shadow puppetmasters and the ‘chameleon Paul Reveres’ who play both ends against the middle. I do have more respect for Jesse Ventura and Joseph Farrell because of that…Not to say that they don’t have their hypocritical natures as well.
Frankly, I don’t trust any of them explicitly but I know it’s crucial that we resign from the ‘choir’ and make a concerted effort to listen/understand all sides.
The one fundamental issue most all of these whistle blowers agree on is that we are now at least 90 % of the way to the completion of the NWO and most of us are still trying to chart the past historic course of this ‘Titanic’ we find ourselves bound to.
Deep down, most of us know that forces far more sinister than the Muslims, Capitalists, Marxists,
Republicans, Conservatives, Democrats, Supreme Court, Federal Reserve, Bilderbergs, CFR, G-20, UN, WTO, IMF, Bank For Intl Settlements exist but opening the ‘Pandora’s Box’ is just too threatening and we choose to stay with our ‘boogie man’ of choice.

Seriously, Jones makes a living damning both
the Democrats and the Republicans, and propheting
the “new world order” that he believes our war machine
is all about. That part is easy to believe and any
idiot may see that…

However, for Jones to always come out supporting and
endorsing a Repulican is not only hypocritical
but a FALSE FLAG….

Seems we have our own demagogy to overcome before we
worry with business that is none of our concern.

Archives Dave….I enjoy Alex Jones films, I view
every political analysis with a skeptical eye and ear.
Why should Jones, who makes a living damning both parties,
seems to always come out endorsing those he damns.???
He always speaks of false flags, I believe we have seen
many, however, is not ALEX JONES himself a false flag
if he always seems to support a republican???????
Take Jones’ advice,...watch for false flags…..

Jay says that he feels that you miss him. He says he can feel your love.

Jay informs me that Stiglitz is an idiot. That if he were smart he could have predicted Venezuela\‘s economic crisis back in 2007. Jay says that if all you can dig up is a 3 year old article on Stiglitz that you must be desperate. Stiglitz has been pretty quiet lately. Better for him that he don\‘t put his foot in his mouth again. I didn\‘t say that, Jay did. He\‘s texting me right now from Caracas, hes on a secret mission there with the PTA. Don\‘t tell nobody.

Oh, Jay just texted me that they were able to penetrate Chavez\‘s Cuban run security apparatus and Jay found out the secret code name for Stiglitz. Jay says you know how to decipher code. Ready? Here goes: tihsstaeztilgits.

Comandante Chavez has chose you because the fearless demonstration you have shown in the heat of combat from home from behind your computer keyboard. So he is looking for combat hardened veterans like you.

Now memorize the secret Stiglits code Jay sent you cause the infiltrate Cuban cells in the USA will be contacting you. Chavez doesn\‘t trust the Venezuelan security cause they tried to do his ass in back in 2002. Here is the code again: tihsstaeztilgits

Use Stiglitz secret code to communicate with the Bolivarian Revolutionary cells infiltrated over in the USA. When the revolution starts you\‘re going to need it or if not you\‘ll miss it and it will start without you. Or at worse you\‘ll be rounded up lined up against a wall and shot. They might mistake you for a bourgeois. The great overthrow of the imperialist behemoth to the north will have started.

You have been chose to be part of the grat downfall of the great capitalist beast. You\‘ll be remembered like that homicidal sociopathic serial killer Che Guevara. So as you can see Stiglitz is up to his neck in Chavez\‘s crap.

Anyway, as to the other issues:
This article, even though its from a conservative magazine reflects more the reality as Jay knows it:

As for Stiglitz winning the Nobel Prize, so what? As we\‘ve seen any moron can win it. Former terrorists like Menachem Begin and Yassir Arafat won it. Even Obama won the Nobel Prize and went to receive it while his Predator Drones were flying into Pakistan firing Hellfire missiles into shantytowns and while he was sending more troops into Afghanistan.

So the Nobel Prize? Phooey! Its humbug I tell you!

Chavez has been spreading democracy in his own way since he became maximum leader. Here\‘s how he does it:

Tennessee, You seem to be one of the very few here who even dare to discuss folks like Alex Jones, David Icke, and Joseph Farrell.
I still don’t think you understand that most ALL of the honchos like Castro, Chavez, Bush, Obama, Reagan, Truman, Churchill, Wilson, Roosevelt, and even Stalin and Lenin were part of the Freemasonry clan whose primary MO is ordo ab chao and operate primarily on the facade of confusion and obfuscation.
This means they always plan to keep us involved with one or more boogie men…..Let’s see, Communism,
then Naziism, then Communism again, and now it’s the radical Muslims.
The true ‘boogiemen’ pulling the strings of Obama, Brzezinski, Kissinger, Bernanke, et all are NEVER
in the limelight or media.
These shadow puppetmasters have now accomplished
90% or more of their nefarious goals and most all of the Right, Left, Progressives, Libertarians are still majoring on the minors and minoring on the majors. And that especially includes folks like
Hedges, Scheer, Limbaugh, Beck, Hartmann, and BOTH
Pauls!

One day I hope to see you actually contribute something meaningful rather than back-bench snide wise-guy remarks. Once in a while is one thing, but a constant machine-gun deluge of them and nothing else is, well, boring.

i believe that this song is talking about the excess of individualism and egocentrism of the capitalist system. Modern neoliberal oligarchic capitalist systems cannot function without it. If you think about it, this song is very connected to the song “Subdivisions” by Rush, which is an eulogy against the neoliberal individualist capitalist system and how it turns people into conformist drones.

The ruling class of USA need americans to be atomized, to be antisocials, and to hate each other, in order to prevent a socialist revolution. And this is what Jim Morrison is talking about in this song, in which how in USA, you know your neighbors for 10 years and they dont even say hi to you. But this american way of life (AWOL) is not sustainable because it leads to depression, low self esteem and feelings of inferiority. Besides humans cannot achieve any thing alone. In this world people need teams, organizations, and groups to do any thing. Humans alone are weak, and in community are strong.

So i think that the only solution for this nightmare of individualist antisocial societies is socialism, a system of cooperativism, and a new paradigm in the USA of solidarity where people work in groups, in teams in communities and not alone like Robinson Crusoe

Caracas, October 11, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com) - Nobel Prize winning economist and former vice-president of the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, praised Venezuela’s economic growth and “positive policies in health and education” during a visit to Caracas on Wednesday.

“Venezuela’s economic growth has been very impressive in the last few years,” Stiglitz said during his speech at a forum on Strategies for Emerging Markets sponsored by the Bank of Venezuela.

Venezuela, the fourth largest exporter of crude oil to the United States, has experienced the highest economic growth rate in Latin America in recent years, with fifteen successive quarters of expansion and looks set to close the year with 8-9% growth. Despite the high rate of growth, high public spending and increased consumer demand have contributed to inflationary pressures, pushing inflation up to 15.3%, also the highest in Latin America. However, Stiglitz, who won the Nobel Prize for economics in 2001, argued that relatively high inflation isn’t necessarily harmful to the economy.

He added that while Venezuela’s economic growth has largely been driven by high oil prices, unlike other oil producing countries, Venezuela has taken advantage of the boom in world oil prices to implement policies that benefit its citizens and promote economic development.

“Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez appears to have had success in bringing health and education to the people in the poor neighborhoods of Caracas, to those who previously saw few benefits of the countries oil wealth,” he said.

In his latest book “Making Globalization Work,” Stiglitz argues that left governments such as in Venezuela, “have frequently been castigated and called ‘populist’ because they promote the distribution of benefits of education and health to the poor.”

“It is not only important to have sustainable growth,” Stiglitz continued during his speech, “but to ensure the best distribution of economic growth, for the benefit of all citizens.”

Although Stiglitz praised Venezuela’s “positive policies” in areas of health and education and policies to promote economic diversification, he assured that Venezuela still faces the challenge of overcoming structural problems associated with an economy overwhelmingly geared towards oil production.

In terms of economic development Stiglitz argued it was not good for the Central Bank to have “excessive” autonomy. Chavez’s proposed constitutional reforms, if approved in December, will remove the autonomy of the country’s Central Bank.

However, Stiglitz claimed, developing nations must strike a balance between public and private control of the market.

“The key to success is to find the correct equilibrium between the private sector and the government, which is different for each nation,” he said.

Stiglitz also welcomed Venezuela’s initiative to create the Bank of the South; due to be founded in Caracas on November 3, saying it would benefit the countries of South America and boost development.

“One of the advantages of having a Bank of the South is that it would reflect the perspectives of those in the South,” said Stiglitz, whereas, he argued, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund often impose conditions that “hinder the development effectiveness.”

Stiglitz also criticized the “Washington Consensus” of implementing neo-liberal policies in Latin America, in particular the US free trade agreements with Colombia and other countries, saying they failed to bring benefits to the peoples of those countries.

USA NEEDS A REAL HONEST ECONOMIC SYSTEM, WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE PARASITICAL CAPITALISM SYSTEM

According to Bob Avakian from the Revolutionary Communist Party USA is like the Casino movie with Robert Deniro, or The House of The Sopranos in which u see a lot of BMWs, Mercedes Benz, Rolls Royces and luxury stuff out there but it is real hard to tell where that wealth came from. Because lots and lots of people in the USA get their wealth thru the black illegal markets, thru corruption, just like The Bush Crime Family, Gloria Estefan and Emilio Estefan who have business of smuggling people between Mexico and Cuba. No wonder JFK was shot coz USA has been ruled by a mafia-cartel since 1776

in other words what we have in USA is a “parasitical capitalism” system, people with lots and lots of wealth and money to clean their ass with, but who dont work and sweat at all for it

Sean Penn has defended Hugo Chávez as a model democrat and said those who call him a dictator should be jailed.

The Oscar-winning actor and political activist accused the US media of smearing Venezuela’s socialist president and called for journalists to be punished.

“Every day, this elected leader is called a dictator here, and we just accept it, and accept it. And this is mainstream media. There should be a bar by which one goes to prison for these kinds of lies.”

Penn, who has visited Chávez in Caracas, said Venezuela’s poor majority had willingly embraced his leftist revolution, but that this view was concealed from Americans.

“We are hypnotised by the media. Who do you know here who’s gone through 14 of the most transparent elections on the globe, and has been elected democratically, as Hugo Chávez?”

Penn, speaking on Bill Maher’s HBO chatshow, is part of a small but vocal pro-Chávez Hollywood group which includes Oliver Stone and Danny Glover.

They have remained steadfast even as Venezuela’s leader has lost fans at home and abroad. Inflation, crime and water and electricity shortages have hit his popularity and led to defections from his socialist party.

The Organisation of American States recently accused Chávez of intolerance and authoritarianism, and a Spanish judge accused Venezuela of cosseting Farc and Eta terrorists, sparking a diplomatic spat with Madrid.

Chávez thanked Penn for his support in what he said was a daily battle for public opinion.

“I was reading the declarations from our friend Sean Penn, the famous American actor,” he told a televised rally in Caracas. “Penn defended what he considers to be the truth.”

The Hollywood star was an ally in the effort to counter a campaign to “confuse” Venezuelans, said the president, who has been in power for 11 years. “From here I thank you very much.”

Other celebrity endorsements have come from the linguist and writer Noam Chomsky and model Naomi Campbell.

All history proves that the capitalists will never relinquish their property peacefully – to claim otherwise in the age of ‘Shock and Awe’ is either hopeless naivety or wilful deception. There is only one way: their apparatus of state repression must be overthrown by force. The capitalists’ monopoly of military power – armies, police and security forces, prison systems, civil servants, judiciaries – must be smashed to pieces and replaced with the rule of the working people themselves.

This can be done – the majority of humanity can cast off the tiny minority of parasites. It will take mass organisation, an unambiguous strategy and, when the hour strikes, courageous and ruthless action.

Some may baulk at this, but the alternative to revolution is not decades of undisturbed peace. Basing a global civilisation on the empowerment of a few thousand and the impoverishment of six billion is like lodging depth charges in the planetary core. If the logic of capitalism is left to unfold, our world will be torn apart by starvation, disease, poverty, environmental catastrophe, and war.

In the struggle against capitalism, greater energy is equivalent to greater humanity. For with the suppression of our exploiters and an end to the tyranny of profit, human history can truly begin.

And if one reads your personal id backwards, jay1953’s twin
brother, tihsstaezevahc, it is a hoot. Laughed and laughed about
that. WIth you two in the world, I don’t think any of us has a thing to
worry about. Whew! I can relax now.

Hey this is Jay’s twin brother. Unfortunately he’s on a secret mission and couldn\‘t’t come in here so he asked me to answer your post. He said that you’ll probably be worried about him. He told me to use a secret handle which is in code. You’re going to have to figure out how to decipher it yourself. You know how you suspected him of being a mole, well you’re right. He told me you’d understand.

Jay also informed me that you were pretty smart to figure out that he is a member of the ICC, the NSA, the CIA and the FBI. He said told me but not as smart as you think because Jay is also a member of the NRA, ATF, DOD, DOS, DOJ, SCOTUS and the worst one of all the PTA.

By jay1953, May 28 at 1:39 amI have never said that your beloved Huguito Chavez was a dictator. I said he resembled one.

By jay1953, May 27 at 5:49 pmOne among a list of my criticism of Mr. Chavez being a perpetual for life candidate. The president for life Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier syndrome. It resembles too much a dictatorship. There had been elections to amend the constitution to remove term limits. Mr. Chavez has been in power 12 years and counting. Why should the constitution of a country be amended to accommodate one individual?

There you happy now? If you ask Jay again then Jay was right about you, you do have a serious problem with your reading comprehension.

Jay informs me that Mr Chavez’s resemblance to a dictator strongman not only come from perpetual elections and his complete control of the government and his rule by decrees. Remember when he threatened to dissolve the National Assembly if they didn\‘t get behind his agenda in 2002. Some democracy, eh? So yeah, Venezuela does have a democratically elected strongman identical to Mugabe of Zimbabwe. Mr. Chavez has eroded just about all of the institutions of government and exercices a autocratic rule over the country.

Jay abhors heads of state whether, elected or not, that have to appear in public in military garb. It is that strongman image that symbolizes totalitarianism, repression and intimidation of the masses. Mr. Chavez falls into the select group of leaders such as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Somoza, Stroessner, Videla, Castro, Pinochet, Velasco, Montt, the Shah and Suharto and an assortment of others. Mr. Chavez follows in that tradition. And remember Hitler was democratically elected just like Chavez.

It is very disturbing seeing a democratically elected civilian president in military garb at a military parade showing off all his new toys. Was he elected by the military or the people? So he needs to take off the clown suit. What would people have thought of Ike, the Supreme Allied Commander, if he donned military garb and had a military parade down Pennsylvania Avenue?

You tell Jay that if he has \“something against Chavez they will crush you, they will crush and destroy you\”. What are you quoting Goebbels? Similar threats were lanced against the Jews in Hitlers Germany. The irony that both Hitler and Chavez were democratically elected. It\‘s as if Chavez is living Hitler\‘s parallel life.

Jay already posted \“the facts\” but tells me that pamphleteer commie and proto-fascist like you keep posting \“your facts\” or better yet let\‘s call them lies because that is what they are. Like typical commies and fascists it seems that you are of the belief that if you repeat a lie enough times they become the truth. Jay believes Goebbels said that and Mr. Chavez learned his lesson well.

Don’t worry about Jay when he comes back from his secret mission he’ll get in touch with you.

Recently Chavez\‘s doctors had cranial x-ray to see what made the president tick. Here is the link to see:

The resemblance of Mr Chavez to a dictator strongman not only come from perpetual elections and his complete control of the government and his rule by decrees. Let\‘s not forgetthat he threatened to dissolve the National Assembly if they didn\‘t get behind his agenda back around 2002? So yeah, Venezuela does have a democratically elected strongman.

It offends sensibilities that Mr. Chavez appears in public in military garb. If he wanted to be in the military he should have stayed there. He was elected by the people not the Venezuelan Army. It is that strongman image that symbolizes totalitarianism, repression and intimidation of the masses. Mr. Chavez falls into the select group of leaders such as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Somoza, Stroessner, Videla, Castro, Pinochet, Velasco, Montt, the Shah if Iran, Suharto and an assortment of others. Mr. Chavez follows in that tradition. Sure, supporters can argue that Chavez was democratically elected, but so was Hitler democratically elected just like Chavez.

It is very disturbing seeing a democratically elected civilian president in military garb at a military parade showing off all his new toys. What would people have thought of Ike, the Supreme Allied Commander, if he donned military garb and had a military parade down Pennsylvania Avenue?

Someone added that those who have \“something against Chavez they will crush you, they will crush and destroy you\”. Similar threats were lanced against the Jews in Hitlers Germany. Again I\‘ll repeat ,how ironic that both Hitler and Chavez were democratically elected. It\‘s as if Chavez is living Hitler\‘s parallel life.

By ofersince72, May 28 at 9:53 pm #: hmmm, but if Jay is a right-winger, how come he has a socialism avatar? Don’t you think that he might be part of a campaign by The Republican Party to infiltrate progressive forums and websites? I heard that The Republican Party was waging an information war by infiltrating progressive websites with Republican Party web-brigrades. Remember that Republicans are real great at dirty tricks, they killed JFK (Bush father), they did 9-11 (Bush son) and they wanted to overthrow Chavez in 2002, and they were behind the overthrow of Zelaya.

OFFERSINCE: JAY SUGGESTS THAT I SHOULD BE MORE NEUTRAL AND BY READING SOME OF THE NEWSPAPERS OF THE OPPOSITION TO HUGO CHAVEZ. BUT THE OPPOSITION TO CHAVEZ IN VENEZUELA IS NOT NEUTRAL BUT BOURGEOISE, RIGHT-WINGERS AND CAPITALISTS.

He prefers the right-wing capitalist media of Venezuela as vehicles of information and knowledge about the Bolivarian Revolution. That alone makes me think that Jay is not a Socialist at all like his socialism avatar suggests, but either a Republican Party neocon shill, a zionist jewish shill, or just plain crazy

We are writing to express our solidarity during this important moment in Venezuela’s history. It is our hope and expectation that, on August 15, you will once again win an electoral mandate from the Venezuelan people to be their president.

The world knows that you are achieving something remarkable in Venezuela: you are investing your country’s vast oil wealth in ways that benefit everyone, not just small minority of well-connected elites. Over the last year your government’s literacy campaign taught one million Venezuelans to read. And today, millions of others are benefiting from the governments investment in job training, small businesses and health care.

We are disturbed by our own government’s interference in your internal affairs. The National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a group funded by the U.S. Congress, has financed radical opposition leaders in their efforts to cut short your term. Some of the individuals funded by the NED participated in the April 2002 coup attempt against you.

Polling done by both the Venezuelan government and its opposition shows that you will defeat the recall referendum on August 15. We have every expectation that on August 16 Venezuelan relations with the U.S. government will begin to improve.

We are committed to doing what we can, as U.S. citizens, to heal those relationships and encourage Congress and the White House to see Venezuela not only as a model democracy but also as a model of how a country’s oil wealth can be used to benefit all of its people.

according to him Castro is the devil himself
He doesn’t like Evo either
Daniel Ortega also isn’t high on his list
nor the Brazilian Prisident

as a matter of fact , Jay doesn’t like any
of the leaders that challenge U.S. imperialism and
hegemony in Latim America, however
he is just fine with the military takeover of
hondurous, Jay’s colors are easy.

The results of the new survey of ‘Arab opinion’ conducted by Zogby International show that Barack Obama has a much more favourable rating than did his predecessor as US president. But when asked to name the world leaders whom they most admire, the participants put the President of Venezuela at the top of the poll.

The survey, which was conducted in April and May 2009, sampled the views of 4,087 people in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Lebanon, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates. According to the respected Zogby polling organisation, the poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 1.6%. One of the questions put to the participants was “which two world leaders (outside your own country) do you admire most?” The most frequently named leader is Hugo Chavez, at 36%. Following Chavez in order of admiration are Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad and former President of France Jacques Chirac (both at 18%), Osama bin Laden (16%), Mohammed bin Zayed, the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi (15%) and the current French president Nicolas Sarkozy (14%).

Admiration in the Arab countries for Hugo Chavez has hugely increased since 2008. In the equivalent poll conducted last year, Venezuela’s socialist president was named by only 8% of respondents as being one of the two most admired leaders.

Commenting on this result, the Africa / Americas editor of the US magazine Christian Science Monitor, Matthew Clark exclaimed:

The colorful Latin leftist has some serious crossover appeal.

...It may seem surprising, but a quick look back at Mr. Chávez’s statements and visits over the past few years reveal why he’s now a hero for the “Arab Street,” earning nicknames like “Chávez of Arabia.”

In January, Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah – last year’s top leader of the same poll – lauded Chávez for kicking out the Israeli ambassador to Venezuela to protest Israel’s military offensive in the Gaza Strip.

“He did this because of his humanity, his sense of revolution and, in this way, he dealt a severe blow to those who are now hosting the ambassadors of Israel in their capitals and do not have enough courage to even think about telling them to leave. “

The same move prompted a Kuwaiti Islamist MP to say that Chávez “has proved that he was more Arab than some Arabs,” he said. “I call for moving the Arab League from Cairo to Caracas.”

USA and Israel are my enemies

Covering a range of political, economic and social issues, the Zogby survey gives an indication of the understanding by the public in Arab countries of the complexities of international affairs as they affect the Middle East. Asked to “name two countries that you think pose the biggest threat to you”, 88% named Israel and 77% named the United States of America. Iran and China came a distant third and fourth in the list of enemies, at 13% and 9% respectively.

The participants were also requested to comment on the motivation for Israeli policies and the USA’s support for those policies. Although 39% agreed with the phrase “Israel decides on its own interests and influences the US”, the majority (57%) agreed with one of two alternative formulations: “US and Israel have mutual interests” (32%) and “Israel is a tool of American foreign policy (25%).

On the solution to the ‘Arab-Israeli conflict’, most of those surveyed (73%) said that they were “prepared for peace if Israel is willing to return all 1967 territories including East Jerusalem”; but the majority of those who supported peace on that basis were also of the view that “Israel will never give up those territories easily”.

If you come to Venezuela with glistening eyes, expecting to see the revolution of a romantic and passionate novel, don’t be disappointed when the complexities of reality burst your bubble. While revolution does withhold a sense of romanticism, it’s also full of human error and the grit of everyday life in a society – a nation – undertaking the difficult and tumultuous process of total transformation.

Nothing is perfect here, in the country sitting on the world’s largest oil reserves. But everything is fascinating and intriguing, and the changes from past to present become more visible and tangible every day.

After 100 years of abandonment, as President Hugo Chavez puts it, the Venezuelan people have awoken and begun the gargantuan task of taking power and building a system of social and economic justice. But it’s easier said than done in a culture embedded with corrupt values, resulting from the nation’s vast oil wealth, combined with an overall feeling of entitlement. The bureaucracy is massive and often intimidating, as the people, including the President himself, struggle to erradicate it every day, and replace it with a more horizontal political and economic model.

From the outside, it’s easy to criticize Venezuela. Inflation is high, the economy is in a difficult place, although growing, and relations with countries such as Russia, China and Iran are often painful for foreigners to comprehend. Media portrays much of the power in the nation as concentrated in the hands of one man, Hugo Chavez, and rarely highlights the thousands of positive achievements and successes his government has obtained during the past ten years. Distortion and manipulation reign amongst international public opinion regarding human rights, freedom of expression and political views opposing those of President Chavez, and few media outlets portray a balanced vision of Venezuela today.

While it’s true that there is awful inflation in Venezuela, much of it has been caused by business owners, large-scale private distributors and producers, import-exporters and the economic elite that seek to destabilize and overthrow the Chavez administration. They sell dollars on the black market at pumped up rates and speculate and hike the prices of regular consumer products to provoke panic and desperation among the public, all with the goal of forcing Chavez’s ouster. And despite ongoing economic sabotage, the economy has still grown substantially in comparison to other nations in the region. In fact, according to the neoliberal International Monetary Fund (IMF), Venezuela is the only South American nation to forecast economic growth this year.

How do you build a socialist revolution in an oil economy? It’s not easy. The Chavez government promotes a green agenda, but at the same time, the streets of Caracas – the capital – are still littered with stinky garbage and the air is contaiminated with black smoke emissions from cars and make-shift buses that go uncontrolled and unregulated. Part of the problem is government regulation, but most of the problem is social consciousness. Revolution is impossible if the people aren’t on board.

Jay: So make up your mind, do you think Hugo Chavez is a dictator or not? And if you do think he is a dictator, what do you propose? what would you do to solve that situation? Like I said you are entitled to think what ever you want about Hugo Chavez. What you are not entitled is to do what ever you want about Hugo Chavez. Because 70% of the Venezuelans love him, and they will deffend the Chavizta Revolution for ever.

And if you do something against Chavez they will crush you, they will crush and destroy you because they are supported by facts and by improved living standards, higher wages and better lifestyle under Chavizta-Socialism than under pre-Chavez era

So i guess I win and you lose, because we will have Chavez for ever and ever amen !!

The real evil Hugo Chavez dictator who lowered poverty levels from 70% to 25%, the dictatorship of the proletariat !!

And yeah say all you want about Chavez, call him Hitler, Musolini, Franco, a killer, a homosexual, whatever you want !!

“But surely, the U.S. Constitution is just a ghost, an illusion of something real that never existed, except in the minds of a brainwashed society”

Maybe you are brainwashed, and maybe many others, maybe even most others.

But I rest on the words of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, written by men of exteme wisdom. For they put into writing the words, “all men are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights”

I cannot tell you how important those words are to me. Because by virtue of being endowed by my creator, I am a subject of my creator, and not a subject of any man, or any government of men. I am not a subject of any system conceived by men, though I may enter into a group willingly, I will dissolve the relationship when it suits me, according to the contract of the word I gave.

I was not brought into this world by men, but by a power and a system infinitely greater than man. That is where my primary allegiance is, and not to greedy, selfish men or their greedy, selfish governments.

Suffice it to say that if a creator did not exist, I would insist that one existed anyway. To prove otherwise is impossible. You may deleriously think I believe because of superstition and fairy tales if it floats your boat, but men of real wisdom understand the importance of the creator. God is not the opiate of the masses, but he is the strength and power of the free man. Government is the opiate of the masses. Look at the greeks. They are in need of a fix.

Dictators and other masters have to create victims and under-priviledged classes so they have a constituency. When you buy into the victim mentality, you become a victim and you become a needy person, groveling for rights and sustenance.

I cannot help those Greeks. They had evidence of the truth, but they chose to enter into a system where they have to grovel around for their rights and their sustenance. And then groveling turns to destruction, and then to murder. Apparently victims consume themselves with ideas of revenge. That is the disease of the revolutionary socialist, among others. Pretty sick way to live, consumed with hatred over an enemy who is created by government which you worship.

An individual going about his business, not infringing on the rights of others has never been a problem in this world. But yes, if they group together under the terms of corporatism, communism, socialism or any other “ism” the intent is almost always to deprive others of their rights and sustenance, and possibley their very lives.

For anyone who thinks Greece’s issues are not related
to corporate pillaging as Hedges writes, first I
would say Hedges has a lot more knowledge than you
(read his bio), secondly you are behind and you need
to catch up - read A Game As Old as Empire and
Confessions of an Economic Hitman. And/or Nader’s
recent books and/or Chomsky’s writings i.e. Profit
Over People. Or just look around. Try to challenge or
take down a Corporation. Try talking to a
whistleblower, (here is one example: http://www.airline-
whistleblowers.org/Outside_Consultants.html) guess
who the law protects - the citizen or the big
corporation? Or try running for office as an
independent candidate. Or talk to family farmers. Or
any indigenous population of anywhere that has some
resources a company or our government is interested
in. Or note how heads of govn’t agencies trade places
back and forth with heads of the Corporate companies
their agency is supposed to regulate.
We need to be figuring out how we are going to solve
this problem, that we are being used as fuel for the
elites money machines and that the government helps
fork us in b/c the corporations pay for their
campaigns.
Fair Elections NOW.

For anyone who thinks Greece’s issues are not related
to corporate pillaging as Hedges writes, first I
would say Hedges has a lot more knowledge than you
(read his bio), secondly you are behind and you need
to catch up - read A Game As Old as Empire and
Confessions of an Economic Hitman. And/or Nader’s
recent books and/or Chomsky’s writings i.e. Profit
Over People. Or just look around. Try to challenge or
take down a Corporation. Try talking to a
whistleblower, (here is one example: http://www.airlinewhistleblowers.org/Outside_Consultants.html)
guess who the law protects - the citizen or the big
corporation? Or try running for office as an
independent candidate. Or talk to family farmers. Or
any indigenous population of anywhere that has some
resources a company or our government is interested
in. Or note how heads of govn’t agencies trade places
back and forth with heads of the Corporate companies
their agency is supposed to regulate.
We need to be figuring out how we are going to solve
this problem, that we are being used as fuel for the
elites money machines and that the government helps
fork us in b/c the corporations pay for their
campaigns.
Fair Elections NOW.

Thanks for the words of love and inspiration. You unadulterated admiration for me has not gone unnoticed.

Its getting late and I’ll try to be brief. I need to go watch my favorite soap opera which I TiVo’ed early today. It’s called “Munecas de la Mafia” on Telefutura. It’s hilarious. It’s closed captioned in English on CC3. All those bourgeois luxuries that we legitimate Socialists have to endure. But it is one of those things my Latin wife and I share. So I have to endure and be a martyr. Well, it’s for a good cause.

Well, enough of small talk.
I have never said that your beloved Huguito Chavez was a dictator. I said he resembled one. You can go down the thread and verify it. That is one of the problems pamphleteer commies like your self have. You can never get your story straight. I say one thing and you say I said something else. If you’re married you must argue incessantly with your wife. I’m assuming you are male and married or at least have a significant other. Well, unless you’re into one of those same sex relationships which is okay too. You got my total undivided support if you are.

You keep referring to me as a nobody as if you were somebody. I’m sure you’re a very important individual, well at least to your mom. Yep, I have a sense that we both are nobodies and we both will die as worthless maggots. I also feel neither one of is going to change a thing posting these rambling messages. Nobody is paying attention to me, well on second thought you are. So I guess that makes me somebody. And you, another nobody, is now somebody because I’m paying attention to you. Isn’t that wonderful how we compliment each other? This is great, I’m on the path to self actualization. Lord Zarathustra, I’ve seen the light!

Well back to the maggots.
I wrote in my will that I want to be cremated so the maggots won’t get me. My ashes are to be spread at the mouth of the Hudson River off of Staten Island even though once you’re dead it doesn’t really matter. I suggest you do the same and draw up a will for the disposal of your human remains. You can get really creative to keep in line with your absolutist ideology and make your totally insignificant life keep with the ideals that you lived by requesting to have your ashes flushed down a toilet were Mr. Chavez just dumped a load. If you’re important and a somebody I’m sure he will not deny a dying man’s last wishes. Well if he doesn’t go along with that you can always have Sean Penn as a backup.

Moving on.
I’m elated to see that we agree on the premise I expounded to you about political pundits and hacks, what you call journalists. Again, if you read below in the thread I never said that I disagreed with everything said by your heroes on your list. You just have to sift through what they say and separate the bullshit and believe what is true. Sort of like reading the Bible. Or Homer’s Odyssey. By the way I really like Greg Palast, I think the documentary he did on the contamination of the Ecuadorian Amazon by the oil companies was riveting. Bastards. The way they destroyed the environment and the native habitat of indigestion people was unconscionable. They need to pay for that. Shit I’m getting off subject. We were talking about Chavez. I don’t want to post too much of something that you may agree with because then you’re going to be even more confused than what you’re already are.

So when I posted that Chavez….......

YEAH HONEY, ILL BE RIGHT THERE!
NO! NO! NO! DON’T START WATCHING THE SHOW WITHOUT ME!

Sorry Tennessee, love to hang out with you a little longer but my marital duties are summoning me.

I only hope that when the Generatin Xers are finally
running things, they’ll have the courage to kill all
these “baby boomers”, one by one, in their hospital beds
and their nursing homes. Kill them and loot their
pensions and estates, and throw them ot into the streets
with nothing. If they don’t , the boomers will take
everything they can and keep it for themselves. They’re
trying now to arrange for the next two generations to
pay their debts, having already put young people deeply
in hock. Boomers are living off their grandchildren’s
money and will try to steal everything else before
they’re gone.
GEORGE CARLIN 1997

Jay1953: Even though you have given statistics about Venezuela’s poverty, murder rates and problems, those things are not evidence to accuse Hugo Chavez and The Bolivarian Revolution of a dictatorship. So nice try but not right.

You haven’t presented any thing, any evidence that can accuse Hugo Chavez of a dictator and a dictatorship. And if you think that Hugo Chavez is a dictator, you have your own right to wage a campaign to accuse him of a dictator in an International Law Court, but nobody will hear you because you are a nobody, and in this world nobodies won’t get anywhere. Just accept the fact that you will die as a worthless maggot having contributted nothing to this hypocritical society.

And you are right about not needing journalists to form your own opinion about Venezuela, because you don’t want to admit the things that Greg Palast, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky, Stiglitz, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Heinz Deterich, Alan Woods and other intellectuals will tell you about the Venezuelan Revolution. You don’t want to hear that Hugo Chavez is good and Venezuela is the best democracy of this world. So you are the one who is dodging the truths and reality about that the Bolivarian Revolution is the best democratic system in this world today.

You don’t want to hear Joseph Stiglitz, (Nobel Prize Winner), Noam Chomsky and Greg Palast because they are social scientists who work with evidence and proofs and they can shut you up about Venezuela

And your own opinion about Venezulea is bullshit, so i think that you are either a redneck hillbilly who is beating the bullets economically and blames Hugo Chavez for your personal failures, like Sarah Palin and the Tea Baggers, or just a US government shill.

Why don’t you go to these sites and see for your self how great The Bolivarian Revolution is:

Hey I sneaked away from the wife so that I can respond to your post. She told me not respond to cybernetic bohemian vagabonds. Geez I hope she wasn’t referring to you cause I kinda like you even though you’re a pamphlet commie and all.

Man you keep hurting my feelings, I’m going to have to go crawl in a cave. On the other hand having an illustrious delusional fanatic like yourself insult me is kinda of fun. I guess that probably I have a masochistic streak.

Well after your last rant I’m sure you feel better now. Glad I could I help. Don’t bother thanking me, its on the house.

Well now down to business.
Tennessee, I think this is the 2nd time you tell me I’m arguing with you. I thought we were having a discussion, I’m not arguing. If you’re arguing then it is a one sided argument.

I’m sorry to hear that you feel that I’m talking against Mr. Chavez. I am not. I’m just expounding “the facts” as they exist. I know that facts are novel concept to you and that you feel flustered and off balance when they are presented to you and it deflates that fantasy bubble that you have created for yourself. Don’t worry you’ll learn to deal with it, trust me.

Now you keep quoting your heroes and I agree with some of what they say. But unlike you I have the ability of critical thinking and am capable of forming my own opinion. And unlike you I don’t need any political hack or pundit telling me what my opinion should be or what I should think. And unlike you I’m better able to discern between between the bullshit and the facts. You’re a good automaton and seem to been have programed pretty effectively. Still, I feel that you have room for improvement.

I am also glad to see that you’re invoking one of the heroes that you forgot in your last post, Sean Penn. By the way “Dead Man Walking and “Bad Boys” were my favorite Sean Penn movies. Wasn’t Clarence Brown great in “Bad Boys”? he was also great in “Highlander” with Christopher Lambert.

I take credit for reminding you of that unforgotten hero, Mr. Penn. What would you have done without invoking Sean Penn. The emptiness would have been overwhelming. I’m glad to see though that you didn’t forget him this time around and you invoked him like the god you worship him to be. Forgetting to invoke Mr. Penn would have been like if you would have been on your weekly flight to Caracas for the Hugo Chavez show “Alo Presidente” and remembered somewhere over the Atlantic Ocean that you left the stove on. No sir you wouldn’t have enjoyed your weekly indoctrination meeting with Mr. Chavez sitting there like a zombie listening to him sing, listen to him talk shit for hours and bobbing your head up and down agreeing with everything Mr. Chavez says. Along with the rest of Mr. Chavez’s fart sniffers. Maybe if you get lucky you’ll be important enough that he’ll mention you as one of his official fart sniffers. You’ll never know, you could have that honor. Maybe you’ll be so lucky to walk into a bathroom where Mr. Chavez has just expelled the previous nights meal of rice and beans. Ah just think of the honor to be so close to one of your greatest heroes. I think that at that moment you will say to yourself, “God does exist”.

Hello all here in this site fighting the Canibal War Machine !! I have an ugly painful truth for you or for many people who don’t know this very ugly and very painful reality and truth. That painful truth is that the US Founding Fathers were not democratic-egalitarian liberators, but corporate oligarchs and fascists, who even killed native american indians. And who installed in 1776, a banking oligarchic plutocratic military empire in favor of the oligarchic-class with an oligarchic constitution.

Here are 4 great links to wake up from the american way of life (AWOL) and very dark truthsabout US founders:

http://www.brianwillson.com <—This is a link by a Vietnam War Veteran and intellectual who woke up from the american way of life (AWOL) and the Matrix of lies of capitalist media

http://www.takeoverworld.info/parenti_talks.html <—Go to this link to download speeches on MP3s by Dr. Michael Parenti about the real truth of US founding Fathers, US History and US Imperialism and that in 1776 USA was founded by oligarchs and bankers as an oligarchic-empire and not as a beacon of liberty, freedom and social egalitarian democracy as people are taught in schools

http://resistancemp3.org.uk/ <—This link is great, its full with audio speeches by great thinkers such as Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, Michael More, Tariq Ali, Tony Cliff, etc.

http://www.bobavakian.net <—this is another MUST full of audio speeches on MP3 by Bob Avakian, the leader of the Revolutionary Communist Party digging out hard truths about our Jeffersonian Empire

jay: You can talk, argue and say whatever you want against Hugo Chavez, like i said you are entitled to your own opinions about Hugo Chavez. But according to Noam Chomsky and Joseph Stiglitz Hugo Chavez is a social democrat reformist, not a dictator.

So yell, insult, and say what ever you want against Chavez, nobody will hear you, because Noam Chomsky and Joseph Stiglitz have a lot more credibility than anonymous unknown internet losers with inflated egos.

And I called you an internet loser, because compared with Noam Chomsky, Joseph Stiglitz and Sean Penn you are a nobody. And you see we don’t live in a class-less world where everybody is equal under God and under the law. We live in a world of superior men and decadent slaves (The herd), the deformed inferior individuals. And compared to Sean Penn, Noam Chomsky and Stiglitz you and I are a lot more inferior than Sean Penn, Noam Chomsky and Joseph Stiglitz, get real.

So yell, and rant all you want against Hugo Chavez, call him a Joseph Stalin, an Adolf Hitler, Augusto Pinochet, accuse Hugo Chavez of murder, of drug-smugler, of a killer, this is a free world however not even The Devil himself will believe you

Oh, i forgot to tell you that Hugo Chavez, like Che Guevara, Chief Sitting Bull, and Martin Luther King jr. is An Ubermensch (An Overman), you can read more about the higher qualities of the superior caste of lords in the book “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”.

“And while 25% of American children suffered malnutrition last year, DaveZx3 of the stuck-up intelligent middleclass got mildly intoxicated in a quality home he owns. And on a deck made out of the most expensive preserved lumber that money can buy”.

Leave me alone. I do my part. I pay the school lunch money for three children going to the local middle school. I also make breakfast for the kids who go to my daughters pre-school at my own expense.

Has nothing to do with my little deck and my Sam Adams. My post said that we will minimize the influence of the rich and pick up those who cannot pick themselves up. But we will do it as individuals, not big government. It’s not that hard, try it.

So, please, leave me alone, quit your bitter materialistic rhetoric and go feed a couple of kids. If everyone quit worrying about how much they had, and their union pensions, and their vacations, etc, and fed a few kids, there would be no starvation in America.

Community organizers, bullshit. They organize discontent for their own benefit. Why not organize the growing of food and feed the people? Do something positive. Teach the people to grow food.

In addition to my 10x10 deck, I have about 400sq’ of garden where I grow my veggies and stuff to put into the kids breakfasts. Costs me virtually nothing to grow these veggies. The dirt is free, the sun is free, and the rain is free. And I use non-GM seeds, so I can save them every year. Food does not have to be expensive. I could probably organize the unemployed and use vacant lots to grow enough food to feed every kid in America.

So quit belly aching. Food is not about governments, bureaucrats, capitalists, etc unless you want it to be. Otherwise, just go grow some stuff and give it away.

Minimize the influence of the rich by staying out of their grocery stores, grow your own. Don’t you get it?

I think as a common courtesy to other people on this board that instead of Copy & Paste lengthy articles from other websites that you should just post the link to the article and post you opinion in your own words and why we should click on the link. It’ll probably get more hits.

If its going to be a lengthy post it should be in your own words.

I mean you are capable of independent thought? your own thoughts? and a not a Copy & Paste from one of your idols or their admirers?

All the scrolling you guys make us do to get past your insipid posts takes away from your message because nobody reads them.

I don’t remember the inscription but rather Eris crying “for the fairest!” She was p***ed because she wasn’t invited to the wedding. Had there been an inscription it would have been one of the extremely rare mentions of writing in Greek mythology. There are a few and undoubtedly the language was Linear B.

Actually, Zeus sent the goddesses to Paris (who wouldn’t want to go to Paris?) rather than choose between his daughters and his wife/sister. Hera promised to make him ruler over all Asia Minor (modern Anatolia). I THINK Athena promised him wisdom and to make him a great warrior. Paris was doomed no matter whom he chose. But he had Helen as his wife for 11 years (which is, like, 110 years in Celebrity Marriage Years—similar to dog years).

But both Athena and Hera encouraged Menelaus and his brother Agamemnon to go destroy Troy to recover Menelaus’s cheatin’ wife.

Of course, it’s all just a fairy tale. Troy/Ilios/Wiluisa was caught at the conflux between the Greek confederation and the Hittite empire at the most strategic place in the Mediterranean. Over 3000 years later nations were STILL fighting over that same stretch of water. From the ruins of Troy you can see the World War I memorials where the Allies fought the Central Powers in the person of the Ottoman Empire. “Galipoli” is right there as well.

You really hurt my feelings, man. You called me an “internet loser” as if I’m only entitled to your opinion. I just don’t know if it was necessary for you to be so cruel and insensitive. Boohoo!

Geez Tennessee, does that make me one of the bad guys and you one of the good guys?

So based on your rationale we all have to agree completely with you on everything you and your list of people that you idolize so that we won’t be classified as “internet losers”. HAhahah! You forgot to mention Sean Penn and Oliver Stone.

Geez, my wife thinks I’m nuts and is asking me why am laughing at a computer screen. Kinda reminds me of when I’m sitting in my car waiting for the light to change in the guy in the other car is staring at me because I’m talking to myself. Man! there goes that woman asking the same dang question. Talk about getting henpecked. Anyway, today you can always blame a Bluetooth, even though I don’t have one, if other people think your crazy for talking to yourself. You can even let you hair long so other people won’t be able to tell that you don’t have one. Then you can talk to yourself all the time. Where you ever in a public place and a guy with a Bluetooth asks his caller a question and you answer? Did you feel stupid? or did you call him an idiot under your breath?

COMING HONEY!!!
Dang woman, she can’t live without me.
I’LL BE THERE IN A MINUTE!!!
Women, you can’t live with them , you can’t live without them. Oooh man! but isn’t love great.

Ah well back to you.
Is conformity, as described by your whims the key to gain your good graces?
So there is no room for discussion or disagreement, eh?
So I guess you don’t want to be my friend?
So why does anyone of us even bother coming in here if we are only entitled to your opinion and not ours?
It has all been settled by “internet winners” like you.

In regards to your lack of comprehension of facts. Yes you have given me “your facts” and I have given you “the facts” but you don’t seem to have room in your little preconceived world for “the facts”. You need to paint rosy pictures for your heroic idols.

I never said that Chavez did not win clean elections, that is another one of your preconceived notions. “If Jay believes that, therefore he must believe…

One among a list of my criticism of Mr. Chavez being a perpetual for life candidate. The president for life Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier syndrome. It resembles too much a dictatorship. There had been elections to amend the constitution to remove term limits. Mr. Chavez has been in power 12 years and counting. Why should the constitution of a country be amended to accommodate one individual?

Another issue I have with Mr. Chavez, and there are plenty, is his excessive military spending of offensive weaponry. Mind you they are not defensive weapons. Who is he going to attack? If nobody then why does he want them? Is he fulfilling a childhood fantasy of having the best and most toys on his block? Spending billions of dollars on these weapons while he has 46.83%, by the last available official estimates of 2008, of Venezuelans living in poverty it seems criminal to squander this wealth away on weapons of war. His country needs infrastructure such as roads, power-plants, electrical grids, schools, universities, etc. There are power outages almost on a daily basis. The food shelves are understocked. Venezuela has an assortment of problems and Mr. Chavez only feeds his ego. The economy has declined in 4 straight quarters. This last quarter by 5.8% for a total of nearly 20%. And Mr. Chavez talking of war and arming himself with toys of war. Toys that if he doesn’t use will decay from exposure to the elements, or will Mr. Chavez be tempted to use his new toys as he has threatened his neighbors to do.

DANG!!!
There goes that woman again, nagging at me to stop wasting my time with you. I think she might be right, it probably is a waste of time.
COMING HONEY!!!!

ITW, yes we have to get our mythology right! You are soooo
right! My mind must have taken a lunch break! Of course it was
not Eros! Eros is Aphrodites’ son, Zeus the father. Her power may
not be seen as too significant, in comparison with sun-god Apollo.
But the most famous example of Aphrodite’s influence is the
Judgment of Paris, an event in which Aphrodite’s actions indirectly
caused the Trojan War. Not too insignificant an event. Fritz Graf’s
“Mythology: An Introduction: recounts the events that preceded the
Trojan War, he writes the Cypris reports Aphrodite’s behavior at
the marriage of Peleus and Thetis:

At the wedding, Eris (Strife, or Discord as ITW’s version calls her)
threw a golden apple into the midst of the guests. The apple bore the
inscription “for the fairest” a quarrel arose among Hera, Athena, and
Aphrodite, with each goddess claiming the apple for herself. Eventually,
they agreed to make Paris, a Trojan prince, arbiter of their heated
argument. Heated because of the consequences that occurred because
of his choice. All three goddesses offered Paris bribes; Aphrodite
promised the most beautiful woman on Earth as his wife—everyone
knows that was Helen, the then wife of Menelaus, ruler of Sparta. Oh
boy, Paris, seeing that he would have the greatest prize of all, awarded
the apple to Aphrodite and proceeded to abduct Helen. You all know
what happens next.

I love it that there is another mythologist on this forum! You can keep
me honest! Thank you ITW! You are a gem.

Yes, this is yet another article about the deafening silence, a most critical problem, that plagues our nation. America’s wars rage on endlessly; nine years in Afghanistan, seven in Iraq, with Iran being the next potential target. War is now a part of our national psyche, deeply embedded within our culture. And as we go from one war to another I am struck by the eerie silence that emanates from the American people; it is the silence of the lambs.

No matter how many years these wars have been going on, no matter how much they have cost, how many troops have needlessly died, or how much destruction they have inflicted on the nations that we have invaded and occupied, the people of America remain in a state of passive silence; seemingly unwilling, unable, or afraid to express any form of protest or dissent.

How did we in America ever get to this point? It’s not really difficult to explain. Over time the American people have been subjected to a process of patriotic mind conditioning primarily carried out by the government and the various elements of our national media. We have been taught that we must support our troops and every war, and accept and condone all military actions without exception or condition; and we have done that, time and again, except in the case of the Vietnam War which will be discussed below.

So what are the specific elements or institutions in America that have, over time, contributed to this insidious process of patriotic mind control. To begin with, let’s take our mainstream national media; radio, TV, and newspapers that are largely controlled by corporate America. Do you ever hear or read anything of real substance being reported or discussed relative to America’s military actions around the world? Of course not, for the corporate monopolies that control our airwaves and newsprint have effectively muzzled their anchors and reporters.

You can watch TV and listen to radio 24/7; but you will not get the truth, the real facts or any in-depth analysis of what is really going on with these wars that have brought shock and awe to selected nations or the massive military costs that our sucking the lifeblood out of our nation. No one ever talks about war; it is taboo, something that we simply have no time to discuss. And, God forbid, that we should speak out against war by patriotic dissent. Why, someone might accuse us of treason!

Does CNN ever discuss the pros and cons of our current wars, the exact reasons why our military is in Afghanistan, why we are illegally sending our drones of war across the borders of Pakistan, why our peace president continues to reject diplomacy in dealing with Iran? Does MSNBC, the supposed liberal-leaning network? Does Fox News, the ultra-conservative right wing mouthpiece of corporate America and the GOP? The answer is no, no and no! Never, not ever; that is entirely off limits and it must be tightly controlled.

jay: but i also give you facts about Venezuela. And the facts are that Hugo Chavez has won clean elections supported by The Carter Institute, UN, OAS and other international observers. And by all standards Venezuela’s elections are a lot cleaner than US elections. Well even Haitis electoral system is a lot better than the USA’s elections.

So i just don’t understand you, what is your problem with Hugo Chavez? Why don’t you like him. He is not a dictator, because if he was a dictator he wouldn’t have the positive review of these great intellectuals and important famous people and celebrities: Greg Palast, Amy Goodman, Dr. Michael Parenti, Noam Chomsky, James Petras, Alan Woods, Paul Krugman, Cindy Sheehan, Sean Penn, Naomi Campbell, Oliver Stone, Danny Glover, Joseph Stiglitz, Heinz Deterich, Eduardo Galeano, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Jose Saramago, Vladimir Putin, Manuel Zelaya, Isabel Allende, Alex Jones, and many other intellectuals and famous people who support Hugo Chavez’s performance, and who have positive reviews about the best democracy of this world: The Bolivarian Venezuela Government

So who do you think people will trust to know if Hugo Chavez is evil or good? An internet anonymous loser who nobody knows, or Greg Palast and Noam Chomsky?

Since my original comment to John Ellis was lost in the great shuffle, and since John Ellis portrays himself as a history scholar, I will pose the question again.

According to John Ellis, at least from my memory of what Ellis wrote; “Thomas Jefferson was a filthy rich bigot who seduced virgin slaves.” following with something to the effect “and he never let them free when he died”.

So I commented filthy has nothing to do with it and why would rich either? I pose this question could it be possible for a slave owner such as Thomas Jefferson not to be a bigot? It seems more possible Thomas Jefferson may have been a hypocrite or a pedophile depending on the laws of the time.

My concern is in the degrading of Thomas Jefferson as one of the founding fathers of our nation, country known as the USA, my suspcisons are this is only one more slop over from the great state of Texas who are saying Thomas Jefferson never existed.