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However, when I think of urbanity, it has more to do with people than it does buildings and infrastructure.

For example. There are areas of Long Island that are more dense than ANYWHERE in the south. However, the mentality of the folks that live in these areas of LI are VERY suburban (the cars they drive, where they shop, their hobbies, where they WON'T send their kids to school, their bias against certain areas of NYC, etc).

In the South, there are MANY areas in some cities that are almost rural when it comes to density. However, the mentality of the folks that live in these areas are very "urban". In Atlanta, some of the areas of town with the least density (ie, the corridor along Bankhead Hwy heading west of downtown) has an urban mentality that is superior to the folks living in Buckhead (an area of town with some of the highest densities).

I guess what I am saying is that density (to me) doesn't always mean "urban". Sprawl doesn't always mean "suburban". You are more likely to be mugged in Atlanta's most "sprawled" development than you are in the most developed parts of the Atl.

Culturally, Atlanta is by far the most "urban" of the cities named on this thread (eventhough it has the lowest density of the four). I hope this makes sense.

I wouldn't say Atlanta is BY FAR the most urban. Because Miami also has neighborhoods where you can get mugged in and have an "URBAN" mentality, BUT they are CLOSE to downtown, and FAR more dense then the Atl neighborhoods outside the corridor. If you meant urban in the sense of mentality, neighborhoods in Miami such as Overtown and Liberty City have that urban mentality, PLUS proximity to downtown, and density, especially with all the low income apartments/public housing. If we're going by city limits then Miami would certainly take this title.

No, they will have the largest light rail system in the southeast. Which is great and all, but it's not a subway like Atlanta has.

While MARTA isn't considering any major expansion, that doesn't mean we're sitting still transit wise. Four new new stations (3 or the north line, 1 on the west line) are likely to be built within the next 10 years.

The Belt Line, a loop of Light Rail transit around the inner city that will link 45 neighborhoods directly to the MARTA subway, is already under construction and right of way acquisition.

The planning for the Peachtree St. Streetcar line, covering at least 7 miles from Buckhead to Downtown, is in it's final stages and is likely to get federal matching funds before the year is out. Two other lines down Ponce De Leon and Piedmont Avenues are being considered as well.

There are also several well developed proposals for commuter rail into the City from the major suburbs that would get moving...if we got the right leadership in the Governors Mansion. That remains to be seen unfortunately. To see all of those proposals, plus the ones discussed before, look here http://www.cfpt.org/documents/worldclass_map.pdf.

As for the "density issue", the numbers don't lie. Here are the current population densities for each city:

People like to assume that since because Atlanta is the only one of the four that was not planned on a street grid that it is inherently less dense. I'm not sure why that is when a little math would give you the answer, and when places like Boston (also not planned on a grid) don't get the same flack.

Even that though doesn't give an accurate picture of how dense Atlanta really is. The population of the city proper is mostly confined in a loop from stretching from the central westside, down through the southwest and southeast side, up to the northeast side. This was the original boundaries of the City prior the annexation of the Northwest section of the city in 1952 (which is primarily low density and in large parts undeveloped land). What this translates into is that about 80% of the population of Atlanta resides in a 40 sq mile area. That's about 10,000 people per square mile. Not to shabby IMHO.

Lastly, the current mantra for most development in the city of Atlanta proper is density, density, density. I'm not aware of any major plans in the city for any type of low density, car centered, residential or commercial developments.

But alas, all of this will fall on deaf ears. According to CD Atlanta is just a sprawled out behemoth that's just a waste of space and time. Nevermind how that only relates to the suburbs of Atlanta and is a problem in every other city on this and in this country.

Don't let the large land size throw you off. Houston and Dallas have continuous density compared to Atlanta. Harris County (Houston) alone has 4 million people in just under 2,000 sq. miles. At about 100 sq. miles of Houston you have a population of about 600,000 (Inner Loop Houston) with density at about 6k. Dallas and Houston's large land areas is what subtracts and decreases their density numbers.

I wouldn't say Atlanta is BY FAR the most urban. Because Miami also has neighborhoods where you can get mugged in and have an "URBAN" mentality, BUT they are CLOSE to downtown, and FAR more dense then the Atl neighborhoods outside the corridor. If you meant urban in the sense of mentality, neighborhoods in Miami such as Overtown and Liberty City have that urban mentality, PLUS proximity to downtown, and density, especially with all the low income apartments/public housing. If we're going by city limits then Miami would certainly take this title.

super true, most of miami neighborhoods go from ghetto to nice. its liek my sisters husband told me, he grew up in brooklyn, and lived in miami for college, he said in ny if you make a wrong turn and enter the ghetto you can be there for hours, in miami you can be in the ghetto for a max of 20 minutes before you hit a nice area.

and overtown and littel haiti are urban ghettos if you ask me. 80% of it is 5 story apartments. and you always see thugs on bikes riding threw downtown in tang tops and dickies.

super true, most of miami neighborhoods go from ghetto to nice. its liek my sisters husband told me, he grew up in brooklyn, and lived in miami for college, he said in ny if you make a wrong turn and enter the ghetto you can be there for hours, in miami you can be in the ghetto for a max of 20 minutes before you hit a nice area.

and overtown and littel haiti are urban ghettos if you ask me. 80% of it is 5 story apartments. and you always see thugs on bikes riding threw downtown in tang tops and dickies.

100% True. You could drive through the whole Northern half of Miami-Dade County on I-95 from Carol City to Little Haiti and you'll see about 30 minutes of straight ghetto, lower income, working class neighborhoods, and lower income apartments, before you reach the wealthier side of Miami in Miami Beach and Coral Gables.

No, they will have the largest light rail system in the southeast. Which is great and all, but it's not a subway like Atlanta has.

It doesnt matter what kind of rail it is. Thats just splitting hairs.

Heavy rail, light rail, subway, elevated train, etc. all serve the same purpose. To get people from point A to point B. I dont care if its light rail or heavy rail, if the train is above or below ground. If it gets me from point A to point B with minimal interferance of the traffic, it doesnt matter. Dallas will have the largest rail network in the Southeastern States. Atlanta needs to get on the ball and expand theirs.

That is somewhat true. Once you drive west of I-95 it gets HEAVILY suburban, especially in places like Hialeah, West Miami, and Miami Springs. I agree with you, the difference with Miami and the other cities listed is Miami has DENSE suburbanization. Miami, and the rest of the metro from Miami ALL THE WAY to West Palm Beach, is REALLY DENSE suburbs. Because South Florida being stuck inbetween the Glades and the Atlantic, it has no choice but to be dense. As a matter of fact I would go on to say that the South Florida Metro and the LA metro are just alike in terms of Urbanity, both are really DENSE, YET sprawled out suburbs. It's just like LA, just substitute the Mojave Desert with the everglades, and vice versa, and the metros are alike.

I have always thought of Miami's burbs to be a lot like San Jose's...very dense suburbia. But, unlike San Jose, Miami has a lot of urban areas that stretch along the bay and the ocean.

Tall buildings, rail, large projects, etc. don't make cities more urban, it is how this infrastructure actually serves people and how effective it is is what really matters. Furthermore, cities don't stop functioning once you pass city limits, suburbs are just as important as the core now a days as the have a lionshare worth of employment and population.

100% True. You could drive through the whole Northern half of Miami-Dade County on I-95 from Carol City to Little Haiti and you'll see about 30 minutes of straight ghetto, lower income, working class neighborhoods, and lower income apartments, before you reach the wealthier side of Miami in Miami Beach and Coral Gables.

The Northern half of MiamiDade County includes almost most of the developed parts of Miami. DT Miami is further north than halfway through the county. Plus, coming from Broward to the North, it doesn't take 30 minutes to get to Miami Beach. There are definitely some poorer areas in the north part of the county but please don't exagerate it.

Heavy rail, light rail, subway, elevated train, etc. all serve the same purpose. To get people from point A to point B. I dont care if its light rail or heavy rail, if the train is above or below ground. If it gets me from point A to point B with minimal interferance of the traffic, it doesnt matter. Dallas will have the largest rail network in the Southeastern States. Atlanta needs to get on the ball and expand theirs.

Actually it does matter. You are right in that it gets people from point A to B but where it differs between modes is the speed and capacity, which affects whether a person chooses rail or car.

I've said this again and again but the presence of rail (even the largest rail network in Southeastern States) doesn't make it effective. I'm not saying DART LRT isn't or won't be effective but reiterating quality over quantity.

As a side note, all of the areas in these videos are within walking distance of at least 3 MARTA subway stations except for East Atlanta and Atlantic Station (they have direct bus service however).

Now, in good spirit, I'd like to see similar examples from Houston and Dallas.

Last edited by waronxmas; 09-22-2009 at 12:21 AM..

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