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Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

Then why do people spend sometimes their entire lives trying to undo the conditioning of their childhoods?

Hell, I just noticed something about myself the other day that isn't ideal, and probably from my childhood. Based on experience, this is going to take me years to get it where I want it. And I'm not a depressed, "damaged" person. I'm intelligent and very self-aware, and I do a lot of self-work. I'm relatively well adjusted -- I just don't particularly like this habit of mine. It's still gonna take me years. What do you think it's like for someone who doesn't even realize what's happening to them or really is a damaged person?

Some types of conditioning are readily assembled.
It's not cut and dry like that.

If a type of conditioning is nearly always reinforced, then it's more likely to stick.
But then we need to ask ourselves, why is it nearly always reinforced?

Likely because these types of conditioning are biologically/evolutionary and are readily accepted by the population at large.
In the Pavlov's dog experiment, eventually the dogs mouth will stop watering, if the food is not brought.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

You are way, way over-simplying this issue.

There is an enormous amount of debate of how much environment affects the sexes, and almost no one who knows anything about it says "not at all." There's also a lot of evidence that men and women much more similar than strictly gender normative cultures would lead you to believe. This is hardly surprising, considering some cultures don't even have the same genders we do.

It is quite likely that at least half of this equation is environmental. And it's frankly insane to even try to say environment has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, I think it's pretty insulting to men to simply say it's "how guys are." It obviously isn't. I can see that by just observing generational differences between men. It implies that men just aren't very intelligent, or very human, really.

No I don't think so.
It is complicated but it can be summed up with the "it's how humans are."

I don't buy the women and men are the same argument one bit.
It's an attempt to force gender neutrality, when there are very real reasons why it can't be forced.

It's not insulting to men at all.
To me, that sounds like a really backwards sexist statement.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

There are countries where violence against women is literally an institution. Is that nature as well?

Not at all.
Not anymore than the court systems in developed nations are in catering towards women.

I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
—Adam Shepard

You can't just focus on one thing, because violence manifests itself in more than one form.
It's a kind of "fallacy of a single cause" type argument.

Your link doesn't work.

I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
—Adam Shepard

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

Some types of conditioning are readily assembled.
It's not cut and dry like that.

If a type of conditioning is nearly always reinforced, then it's more likely to stick.
But then we need to ask ourselves, why is it nearly always reinforced?

Likely because these types of conditioning are biologically/evolutionary and are readily accepted by the population at large.
In the Pavlov's dog experiment, eventually the dogs mouth will stop watering, if the food is not brought.

You're talking about a simple training trick. I'm talking about the emotional wiring of the human psyche. These two things are radically different from each other.

No I don't think so.
It is complicated but it can be summed up with the "it's how humans are."

I don't buy the women and men are the same argument one bit.
It's an attempt to force gender neutrality, when there are very real reasons why it can't be forced.

It's not insulting to men at all.
To me, that sounds like a really backwards sexist statement.

I did not say they are "the same."

Show me one study saying that society has no impact on how people behave. Seriously. That is what you are arguing, and it's ridiculous.

You're comparing mens' emotions to dogs salivating. I am not the one being sexist.

Not at all.
Not anymore than the court systems in developed nations are in catering towards women.

So, then, violence can have an awful lot to do with society. Glad we agree.

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

You're talking about a simple training trick. I'm talking about the emotional wiring of the human psyche. These two things are radically different from each other.

It may seem as such, but teaching children is but lots of "simple training tricks."
Some are readily assembled in the brain, more so than others.

If they aren't constantly reinforced, they tend to get lost.
At least some of them do.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

I did not say they are "the same."

Good deal.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

Show me one study saying that society has no impact on how people behave. Seriously. That is what you are arguing, and it's ridiculous.

I didn't say it didn't.
I'm saying that the way society acts towards some behaviors may in fact be biological/evolutionary.
Which rewards/encourages more of said behavior.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

You're comparing mens' emotions to dogs salivating. I am not the one being sexist.

No, it's just a way to show that conditioning can eventually go away, if not constantly reinforced.
It sounds like the default position in most of these threads is that there is something wrong with men and it must be changed, to something similar to women.
That is pretty darn sexist, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

So, then, violence can have an awful lot to do with society. Glad we agree.

Sometimes, absolutely.

I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
—Adam Shepard

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

You can't just focus on one thing, because violence manifests itself in more than one form.
It's a kind of "fallacy of a single cause" type argument.

Your link doesn't work.

We are discussing why are there more male mass murderers, are we not? What better comparative data is there than intentional homicides in relation to that subject?

Try the link now, I think I've got it fixed.

Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

I didn't say it didn't.
I'm saying that the way society acts towards some behaviors may in fact be biological/evolutionary.
Which rewards/encourages more of said behavior.

Then why are they so different from one culture to the next?

No, it's just a way to show that conditioning can eventually go away, if not constantly reinforced.
It sounds like the default position in most of these threads is that there is something wrong with men and it must be changed, to something similar to women.
That is pretty darn sexist, if you ask me.

I think there is something wrong killing people, yes. But I am not the one arguing that it's "just how guys are."

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

How do you explain the wide discrepancy in intentional homicides between countries if is solely a gender issue?

I don't believe it's entirely a gender issue, but the vast differences between men and women are certainly a factor. All throughout the social classes, there is more pressure for men to perform than women. Even in modern "enlightened" structures, men are required to work harder to provide for the needs and wants of their families. The price of not doing so is extremely punitive. In poorer social classes, these extremes sometimes lead to domestic violence, physical abuse, like beating a young boys ass until he breaks because he isn't being manly enough, or because he's kind of a pussy. That **** really ****s a kid up, but it's a ****ed up world we live in.

I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

We are discussing why are there more male mass murderers, are we not? What better comparative data is there than intentional homicides in relation to that subject?

Try the link now, I think I've got it fixed.

We are, and I believe males are more likely to mass murder because it's part of our biological functioning.
We can kill easier than females and we have wonky brains.

But, homicide rates are the single factor towards violence and mental stability.
Like the Nordic countries, they may have less homicides but more suicides.

The link works now, but I don't believe the site is compatible with Chrome.
The text of the paper isn't showing up.
Thanks though.

I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
—Adam Shepard

Re: Why are there so few female mass murderers?

They aren't really all that different.
You may find some minor exceptions, but exceptions don't disprove the rule.

There is nearly always an undercurrent of typical human behavior between genders.

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

I think there is something wrong killing people, yes. But I am not the one arguing that it's "just how guys are."

Killing isn't always wrong.

I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
—Adam Shepard