PORTLAND, Ore. — Attorneys for an Oregon couple that was ordered to pay $135,000 in emotional damages to two lesbians after they declined to provide a cake for the women’s “wedding” have filed their argument for appeal with the Oregon Court of Appeals.

This case “is about the state forcing business owners to publicly facilitate ceremonies, rituals, and other expressive events with which they have fundamental and often, as in this case, religious disagreements,” the brief reads. “In this case, BOLI misinterpreted [the law], mistakenly concluding that declining to facilitate same-sex weddings is legally the same as refusing to sell goods or services to gay people.”

It alleges that the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) not only violated Aaron and Melissa Klein’s religious and free speech rights, but also their constitutional right to due process. The brief contends that BOLI Commissioner Brad Avakian made public statements that suggested the Kleins had “disobey[ed]” Oregon law and needed to be “rehabilitate[d]” even before their case had been heard.

“In America, you’re protected by the Constitution and you’re also innocent until proven guilty,” said Kelly Shackelford, President and CEO of First Liberty Institute, in a press released on Tuesday. “Commissioner Brad Avakian decided the Kleins were guilty before he even heard their case. This is an egregious violation of the Kleins’ rights to due process. We hope the Oregon Court of Appeals will remedy this by reversing or dismissing the government’s case against the Kleins.”

As previously reported, in February 2015, a judge with BOLI declared the Kleins guilty of discrimination for declining to make a cake for the 2014 event. The Kleins had served the women, Rachel Cryer and Laurel Bowman, in other ways, and the women returned because the couple had treated them kindly.

“I have customers come in almost on a weekly basis that are homosexual,” Aaron Klein told reporters. “They can buy my stuff. I sell stuff. I talk with them. That’s fine. … This was not the first time we’ve served these girls.”

But because the Kleins said that they didn’t feel comfortable with fulfilling that particular order because of the event that it involved, the women filed a discrimination complaint against the bakers.

“We were being asked to participate in something that we could not participate in,” Klein’s wife, Melissa, stated, outlining that the wedding cake is one of the most personal and intricate parts of the occasion.

Some Christians believe that being a part of a same-sex event violates the biblical command in 1 Timothy 5:22 not to be “partakers in other men’s sins,” as well as the command in Ephesians 5:7, “Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”

After the Kleins were declared guilty of discrimination, Cryer and Bowman submitted individual lists of just under 100 aspects of suffering in order to receive damages. They included “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “distrust of men,” “distrust of former friends,” “excessive sleep,” “discomfort,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “loss of pride,” “mental rape,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

But the Kleins told the court that they too had suffered because of the attacks that they received over their desire to live out their Christian faith in the workplace. They stated that they endured “mafia tactics” as their car was vandalized and broken into on two occasions, their vendors were harassed by homosexual advocates resulting in some businesses breaking ties with them, and they received threatening emails wishing rape, death and Hell upon the family.

As a result, the Kleins had to close their business and move it into their private home.

In April, Alan McCullough, an administrative judge with the bureau, recommended a payment of $135,000, with one of the women receiving $75,000 and the other $60,000. Prosecutors had sought damages of $75,000 each.

In June, BOLI officially accepted McCollough’s recommendation and ordered the Kleins to pay the women $135,000 in light of the damages Cryer and Bowman listed.

The Kleins then asked for a stay of the order, but were denied. As the couple initially refused to pay the damages, believing that they had done no wrong, officials moved to docket the judgment and seek permission to place a property lien against the Kleins or collect the money in other ways.

In December, the state emptied all of the Klein’s personal banking accounts—including money set aside to pay their tithe. The Kleins told reporters following the incident that they had three personal bank accounts: one checking, one savings, and one account marked “God’s money” for their tithe at church. The three accounts contained just under $7,000 total.

Faced with a nine percent interest penalty for not paying the $135,000, the Kleins then opted to submit a check for the amount in full, using money donated by supporters that was not in their personal bank account. They dropped off a check for $136,927.07 after realizing that the government had seized their personal accounts. The funds are currently in an escrow account pending the final outcome of the case.

“There is little to be said for BOLI’s interpretation” of Oregon’s public accommodations law, the brief filed this week reads. “It lacks support in statute or precedent, equates being gay with a celebration rejected by many gay people, and forces people to convey messages against their will and religious beliefs—all while, at a minimum, raising serious constitutional questions.”

“Whatever one thinks of same-sex weddings, there are respectable reasons for not wanting to facilitate them. Indeed, the Supreme Court has held that even with respect to same-sex marriage—a thing quite distinct from same-sex weddings and a liberty protected by the Constitution—there are ‘decent and honorable religious or philosophical’ reasons for opposing it.”

In addition to the First Liberty Institute, Boyden Gray, former White House Counsel for President George H. W. Bush and ambassador to the European Union, is also handling the Klein’s appeal.

“The Constitution guarantees the rights of free exercise of religion, free speech, and due process for every American,” he said in a statement. “We hope the Oregon Court of Appeals will defend the Kleins’ rights in accordance with state and federal law.”

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ʇsǝnƃ

They are going to draw this out as long as they can but the BOLI did what they had done before holding business and employers to the civil rights laws. The head of the BOLI isn’t a judge, they are an advocate for those that are wronged similar to an attorney general – it is the judge that makes the decision who is the impartial arbitrator.

I’ve read the court documents for most of these cases and the biggest mistake the poor clients ‘advocates’ do is instead of making a stand on a principle they file dozens of ‘reasons’, many ludicrous, making it both clear to the judge that they are just trying for a ‘win’ by any means necessary and royally annoying the judge in the process removing any chance they will have good will towards the defendants.

The cases won’t be won because there is no constitutional or civil right that allows a business making an invitation to the public that will allow them to hold the responding customers to the owner’s freely admitted religious standard the customers have a constitutional and civil right not to share.

I can think of several arguments the owners could have used and might have worked but that would have required having a lawyer who is working for the client and not just using them to further their organization’s agenda.

JeffreyRo55

My goodness, homosexuals have very expensive feelings.

ʇsǝnƃ

No Christians do, in 2012 that exact same head of the BOLI got a $348,000 award to a Christian dental hygienist who felt that the business administration meeting her boss keep asking her to attend was run by the Church of Scientology. He didn’t make her go, he just made her feel ‘pressured’ to go.

Oregon BOLI has a long history of large awards, quit trying to put the amount of the dollar judgements on the people who were wronged, they have no say in it.

BigHobbit

A good chunk of the penalty was because the bakers violated a court order and posted personal information about the couple online.
Some Christian bakers are very foolish while in the middle of legal problems.

John_33

That’s not true. The court documents show that they did not pay anything extra for releasing the information.

BigHobbit

Do you disagree that the bakers violated the judges gag order and publically released personal information about the couple?

John_33

As far as I can tell, the release of the documents occurred long before any gag order. As for the gag order, it was so extreme that it would not surprise me if the bakers violated it.

Emmanuel

Keep it tangled up in court hearings, no one will see that money. Smart move!

ʇsǝnƃ

Yeah the dentist did the same thing with his employee’s award too – just was that much more due to accrued interest when they finally got it.

BigHobbit

I thought that they already had paid the fine, perhaps it is still in legal escrow.
There has been a lot of money raised online for them, well more than the fine, at this point.

Michael C

“In this case, BOLI misinterpreted [the law], mistakenly concluding that declining to facilitate same-sex weddings is legally the same as refusing to sell goods or services to gay people.”

By this same logic, The Liberty Institute lawyers are arguing that it is actually legal for a baker to refuse to sell a wedding cake to an interracial couple even though discrimination on the basis of race is illegal.

Interesting argument you’ve got there, professional lawyers.

ʇsǝnƃ

They don’t seem to know much about precedence. In Christian Legal Soc’y Chapter of Univ. of Cal., Hastings Coll. of Law v. Martinez, 561 U.S. 661, 689 (2010) the same kind of argument was suggested, the SCOTUS said they ‘declined to distinguish between status and conduct’. Civil rights laws protects “conduct that is inextricably tied to sexual orientation,” including the act of same-sex marriage.

ComeOnPeople!

OH … I must find a Gay baker to target. I’ll ask to have a wedding cake printed up that reads God ordained marriage is between one man and one woman. If he refuses to make my cake, I’ll sue but sadly I’ll loose. Crying discrimination only works for the far left & their agendas. The LGTB class can discriminate , slander and bully without so much as a hand slap from our corrupt system .

ʇsǝnƃ

This case had nothing to do with the design of the cake or anything written on the cake.

ComeOnPeople!

But thats what I want on my cake. They can’t deny me service just because I want to state what I believe on my cake. Right? LOL Gays are stating what they believe just by asking a Christian baker to make them a cake. If they were not trying to force their belief then why not just go to any bakery. It is unwritten yet a clear message. They are targeting bakers they know are Christian bakers because they know what most Christians believe. And as for plain cake… Not… most wedding cakes have a topper on them that reflects who the people are or words that do so. I have a friend who makes cakes and very seldom does anyone come in wanting a cake without any symbol to show what it is for or about.

ʇsǝnƃ

They can’t deny me service just because I want to state what I believe on my cake. Right? LOL
I don’t know – that isn’t what this case is about.

And no, the bakery invited the general public to come and buy from them knowing each responding customer had civil rights they could not be refuse because of.

That this bakery was targeted is just that – a lie. This exact customer had been there several years earlier to buy their mother’s wedding cake and she and her mother returned this day to get another one for the daughter’s wedding. Lying will not help your case regarding the law or the Spirit or your ability to interpret the commands of Christ.

And I don’t know where you live but here in the 21st century few people have cake toppers anymore. Go look at the Sweet Cakes by Mellissa own Cake Gallery page – only 5 out of 36 pictures have anything on them that could be interpreted as being gender specific, ironically enough one that does is the Demonic themed cake with Witches, Ghosts on it.

And I have helped set up over 60 weddings in the last 2 years and the only people who had toppers on their cakes were the ones that had ordered specialized ones themselves and put them on the cake themselves.

And these customers were rejected before the specifics about the cake were even discussed.

The more you talk the more you invalidate all your credibility as someone who knows anything about this case and Christianity in general. Look at all the things you have said that weren’t true just in this note and reconsider the path you are on please for the sake of your soul.

ComeOnPeople!

Maybe it is you who needs to audit what you believe and start living according to God’s word and not traditions and doctrines of men. The problem is because men do not study history , nor know the word of God they allow every idea and propaganda to become truth for them. Sorry but I do not cater to mens whims nor mens grand ideas of what is right or wrong. Nor do I cater to religion or my own feelings about something thrown my way… because the heart is deceitful . God’s instructions are my blue print and I built my life using His words not mens.

The cake statement was being sarcastic because I’m tired of full ground adults throwing tantrums because someone won’t give them what they want when they want it. Grow up and just go down the street and take your business elsewhere . That is what Christians do when they here of a business supporting something they disagree with or when that business bashes what they believe. All this is silly There are hundreds of thousands of bakeries out there who WILL make a cake for any reason, with anything on it. The Gay agenda is also targeting a Christian T’shirt company. They would not print a gay pride shirt. OOPS to bad the T’shirt company won that time. Why because not only would they not make the Gay pride shirt but they refused to make satanic expression shirts, halloween shirts or any shirt that spoke a message apart from their beliefs. It’s called freedom of expression. Not just for one side but also for the other. The Gay agenda wants to shut up anyone who does not believe as they do. That is one sided. They are intolerant of anyone who disagrees with them. They speak of hate towards them and yet they are some of the most hateful people I have personally known. If you agree with them they are fine but if you do not they throw tantrums and do everything they can to prove you wrong. They want their CAKE and eat it to.

ʇsǝnƃ

Again, the loss of paragraphing usually indicates its time to stop talking. The T-shirt company ruling is fundamentally flawed, is in appeal and will probably be reversed.

gogo0

“I’m tired of full ground adults throwing tantrums because someone won’t give them what they want when they want it”
equal service in accordance with federal law? what whiners!

ComeOnPeople!

Unequal persecusion under the law. It’s called when you get enough perverted people with perverted agendas in the court system and government offices , you can change the direction of the tide. They may win their battles here on earth but one day they will answer to a HOLY GOD. His ways are higher and His thoughts higher. Oh and He allows sin for a season but after that judgement comes. Those who warn people and try to get them to see were they have fallen away from God’s ways actually love them. Those who go along with every whim of man for fear of pursecution care only about themselves. I have relatives who are Gay and I love them dearly but I will never lie to them or water down truth to make them feel good. I care for their souls. This life is short but the next one lasts forever.

Tangent002

Where is the indication Masterpiece was a Christian baker?

Michael C

…most wedding cakes have a topper on them that reflects who the people are or words that do so.

Yeah, no. I’ve never seen one of those dolls on a wedding cake. …and I’ve been to a lot of receptions.

Is that what you really think this is about? Is that really why you think these business owners are refusing service to these gay couples?

ComeOnPeople!

They are not refusing service to a gay person but refusing to make a cake that represents marriage for two males or two females because that would go against their belief. They gladly sell cakes all day to LGTB people. It’s not against a class of people but against being forced to participate in something that goes against your beliefs.

ʇsǝnƃ

But that cake is consistent with the customer’s beliefs and they have a civil right to accept public invitations of sale regardless of their beliefs – the business knew that before they made the offer to the public.

They don’t want to sell to people of all beliefs then public offers is the wrong way to go about it. Find the the people they feel they can sell to first and then make just them the invitation.

Michael C

Do you think that they would have been willing to sell the gay couples a straight wedding cake?

Kelly Samuelson

No. It’s not about the cake. It’s the belief that marriage is between a man and woman and what the lesbians were asking was going against their beliefs.

Michael C

So, the Kleins refused service on the basis of the sexual orientation of the customer.

Yeah.

Chrissy Vee

If a gay baker refused to make a wedding cake for me and my husband because we are Christian, I would walk out and never give my business to them again. That’s what normal, sane people do. This is an evil thing and God will have the last say no matter what the conclusion. Praise His holy name!

ʇsǝnƃ

Normal people would report someone running a business illegally if not for themselves for the next customer they treat illegally.

ComeOnPeople!

oh please it’s all one sided and propaganda. Society is trying to change norms and force everyone to be a part of it. In America it use to be that people were free to practice their beliefs. Not anymore. Now you are to remain silent and only practice what you believe in private. It’s called censorship. The government deciding what to believe and what can or cannot be spoken.

ʇsǝnƃ

And society has a right to change the norms, the whole ‘road to the more perfect union’ thing. And Oregon has protected beliefs as a civil right since 1957 – all business owners know they can’t religiously discriminate against customers and hold them to a religious standard that isn’t there own.

ComeOnPeople!

Oh then soon businesses must allow people to walk in without clothing because that was only based on a norm and a belief that we should be dressed in a public place. The Nudists will finally no longer suffer under the thumb of normality and beliefs that hinder their freedoms.

ʇsǝnƃ

If we passed through legal and constitutional recognized a civil right of ‘dress’ then yeah. Again, these civil right were passed by the people and their elected representatives.

ComeOnPeople!

They are being passed by corrupt judges and perverted government officials. When the court system becomes corrupted the laws that will come out of it will also be corrupted. Study your history.

ʇsǝnƃ

No these were passed by legislators, not judges. You really don’t know much about this stuff do you?

ComeOnPeople!

A play on words. Like usual. Who are legislators? You really don’t know much about this stuff do you?

ʇsǝnƃ

They are people elected by the voting population in keeping with our constitutional democratic republic. Who do you think elected legislators?

ComeOnPeople!

They are government officials .

ʇsǝnƃ

only after we elect them!

Kelly Samuelson

You know what I find interesting? All these anti-Christians come into these comment areas to condem our faith and beliefs, and we’re just supposed to take it and agree. Yet, if we went into a gay comment area and posted something negative, we would never hear the end of hate comments and replies in return. Funny how one belief and lifestyle is ok and the other is not

ComeOnPeople!

It’s called censorship and demonization. History is fixing to repeat itself .

MarcoPolo

Even as a nudist myself, I am aware of people’s sensibilities.

Modesty is a discretionary aspect of living among people with differing viewpoints, but freedom and liberty are also virtuous aspects worth defending in a Country as special as America.

No Shirt, No Shoes, No Pants, No Service!

Nogods

Jesus obviously doesn’t care because he STILL isn’t doing anything about it. He must be too busy feeding starving children or preventing abortions.

ComeOnPeople!

He’s to busy allowing mankind to make their own choices. Unlike mankind He never forces His laws upon them but says if you love Him you will keep His commandments. Starving children are because of mans doing not Gods and a woman choosing to kill her child will not be stopped by God because He allows every man free will. One day He will judge us all by the choices we made. If we chose to lay our will down at His feet and serve Him or if we served our own flesh.

Nogods

That is silly.
Christians generally define free will as the belief that individuals are free to make decisions independent of the influence of the Christian god (or independent of the laws of physics). The rational for the idea takes several forms: First, it is used to explain why the Christian god doesn’t make his presence unequivocally obvious even though there are an infinite variety of things an all-powerful god could do that would immediately convince everyone. Second, it is used as an excuse to explain why bad things happen to good people. And third, it is used as an excuse to explain why prayers go unanswered. The thread common to all these reasons is that it is used to rationalize why the Christian god does nothing. So Christians came up with the idea of free will to try to explain this complete lack of evidence. The idea however fails to distinguish the Christian god from the thousands of gods of mythology that most people already accept are not real. Here are five reasons why the idea is logically bankrupt:

1. Threatening to throw someone into a lake of fire has an undeniable and profound influence on “freedom to choose.” If you point a gun to someone’s head, you can get them to do anything. And that is exactly the effect the Christian god’s threat has on “freedom of choice.” Many Christians, particularly Protestant fundamentalists, openly admit that the threat of eternal damnation has influenced their “choice” which renders it not so free after all.

2. An all-knowing, all-powerful god already knows what “choices” one will make even before they are born. This raises the question: why would an all-knowing god need to wait to see what choice you will make? The logical implication is that either that the Christian god is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful (in which case, he isn’t much of a god) or the individual lacks the free will to make choice.

3. The claim that the Christian god performs miracles is inconsistent with the idea of free will. Most Christians believe that the Christian god performs miracles in response to prayer. To these Christians, these individualized magic shows are evidence of their gods existence. This evidence influences choice. And thus, choice is no longer free but the product of divine persuasion. Once again, this raises the question: If the Christian god is willing to reveal himself to some to prove his existence, why does he refuse to reveal himself to all to prove his existence? And why does he refuse to do it in an unambiguous fashion.

4. ALL gods refuse to perform ANY acts that would unequivocally prove their existence. Just like the Christian god, the Greek and early Roman gods never did anything to unequivocally prove their existence. The reason for this is obvious: all gods are fictional and are thus incapable of doing anything.

5. If humans have free will, than all other forms of life must also have free will. Christians assert that humans have fee will. But what qualities do humans have that would endear them to freedom to choose? Is it a soul? What about chimps? They have about 99% of the identical DNA that we have. They also have a conscious just like we do. Do they have free will? Can they choose to eat a banana instead of nuts for lunch? What about elephants and dolphins? They both have a conscience just like humans. What about your dog? Can he choose to fetch a ball or not fetch a ball? (And dogs don’t have a conscious.) How about mice? Or insects? Can they choose to eat leafs or strawberries? What about worms? Are they merely biological robots or can they choose which direction to burrow? What about bacteria and viruses? Because they are made out of the exact same elements we are made of. Do they have a choice about anything? And if you don’t think that any of these other life forms have a choice, then you are admitting that the world is filled with biological robots that have no control of their interaction with the world. They are just molecular reactions following the laws of physics. At what point do you think that life makes the transition from a meat robot to an organism with choice and how and why did you make that determination?

Someone that is a brainwashed cult member will refuse to consider any evidence that conflicts with their preconceived and dogmatic position. The idea of free will is the excuse used to deny the obvious: that all gods do nothing because they are fictional. And the Christian god is no different than all the other gods we now regard as mythology.

Ken M

Atheists do not run charities, Christians do, so your phony compassion is all talk. Atheists care for no one but themselves.

Nogods

Not true. Just the bill and Melinda gates foundation, a secular charity, donates almost as much money to charity each year as the entire Catholic Church. And they don’t try to brain wash you, threaten you with eternal damnation, or rape your children.

MarcoPolo

That’s a broad-brushed indictment that reveals more about one’s ignorance, than intelligence.
Atheists are simply, good people without religion…NOT without Empathy!

ComeOnPeople!

Amen

Ambulance Chaser

They weren’t asking for a cake that bashed anyone, they were asking for a plain cake for their same sex wedding. Had they asked for a cake that said “Christians suck!” the bakery would have been well within its rights to refuse.

Tangent002

In order for your case to be comparable, you would have to find a gay baker that refused to serve your straight wedding, regardless of what was on the cake.

BigHobbit

You are confused about how anti discrimination laws work.
It doesn’t matter what is printed on the cake – the baker can accept or deny content, much as a publisher may.
Your example is focused on WHAT was being sold. What matters is WHO is the customer.

ComeOnPeople!

The customer was a regular customer who bought from this bakery on a regular bases . They knew what the bakers stood for and instead of taking their business to hundreds of thousands of bakeries where there would be no problem, they decided to cause a stink. The problem was not them being gay ( The WHO), they had served them before. The problem was the difference of belief in what constitutes marriage. Even some gays on the internet are saying it’s silly. They are saying go some place else.

ʇsǝnƃ

And some were happy sitting on the back of the bus. Oh well.

The customers were there to buy a wedding cake, not invite the business to take part in their marriage.

ComeOnPeople!

Oh please no one can change the color of their skin. So tired of people connecting the two. You are not born gay. This is about gay marriage not about a race of people. Black, white, red, yellow and … rainbow NOT . Sorry rainbow is not a race it is a choice and has never been proven otherwise. There has been prove of gays who came away from the lifestyle. You cannot stop being black or white. Being gay is by choice. I was offered the lifestyle when I was a teen and refused it. Had I dabbled in it I may be in it today but I stuck to what nature and the bible said was true about my gender. Other family members bit the apple and it has destroyed them. Partner after partner. Drugs and alcohol. They are some of the most intolerant people I know and the most hateful. Why because they took the bate and are miserable. Misery loves company. Nope sorry RACE and this issue are so far apart it’s ridiculous to even try to connect them.

ʇsǝnƃ

Oh please everyone can change their religion. So tired of people connecting the two.

See how that works. This is about civil rights whether they change daily or never change at all. That’s the whole point of civil rights – people are treated the same no matter which member of the group they are.

And those darn Samaritans, everyone hates them – why in the world would I think any of them are my neighbor?

ComeOnPeople!

Yes everyone should have rights not just those who unjust laws decide but all people groups. None should be forced to violate their conscience to appease they choices of others.

ʇsǝnƃ

exactly! you’re beliefs say you can’t sell pork to the public as the law requires then you don’t have to sell pork to the public. Can’t sell the public wedding services as the law requires don’t sell wedding services.

ComeOnPeople!

The bible says what is right and what is wrong and as a Christian business owner , I should not be forced to go against the word of God. Americas LAWS use to be based upon the laws & precepts in the bible. But because America has forgotten her Creator, she has started creating laws contrary to the word of God.

ʇsǝnƃ

and since the Bible specifically says Christians can do business with those of this world not sure what you are talking about.

but if you can’t then don’t offer things for sale you can’t sell legally, problem solved.

ComeOnPeople!

I may do business yes but I may not partake of another mans sins. Another wards I’m not to participate in sin. I’m in this world but not of it.

ʇsǝnƃ

And so you are concerned someone is going to ask you to have sex? If selling a cake to sinners is a sin again why are you in business at all?

ComeOnPeople!

Making anything for a Gay wedding is participating in their wedding. I may do so unknowingly but never knowingly. Just like I wouldn’t print a gay pride flyer or mugs that said gay pride. I believe homosexuality is a sin and won’t knowingly participate in the endorsement of it. Now if a gay person whats a cake for a birthday or other function fine , if they want flyers printed up for a human society push… fine or a mug that reads I love baseball … fine but to ask me to make or print something against what I stand for. Nope not happening.

ʇsǝnƃ

No, if that were true the concerns of the Corinthians would have been correct and they wouldn’t have sold to the people of this world since virtually everything purchase was used as sacrificial offerings in the Temple of Aphrodite.

No one asked them to create anything they hadn’t created before and they don’t have a right to say I’m not going to sell to someone because they are a sinner – you can only define sin for yourself, not the customer.

ComeOnPeople!

If a customer tells me they want a cake for their gay wedding they themselves have defined their sin and the word of God defines mens sins. Sin in the bible is defined as the transgression of the law. The reason one could buy the meat offered unto idles is because an idle is nothing and their gods made up gods. Someone weak in the faith may feel bad about buying it but someone strong in the faith understood that there is only ONE God and He created the meat being bought. All of the earth is His and offering something up to a non-god is nothing.

OK actually have better things to do then talk to a brick walls all day. Stay on the Christian News site and enjoy .

ʇsǝnƃ

Same reasoning says there is no wedding going on at all so it is merely empty ritual, a Christian could sell to them without sin.

ComeOnPeople!

Sex is not a sin between a man and a woman who are married. If someone comes in asking me to create something for their sinful act I would decline. It is my right to practice what I believe.

ʇsǝnƃ

And its the customer’s right to have their own different beliefs which the business knew before they invited them to com buy.

Sorry, you might as well be saying you have a right to not sell to blacks, or Jews, or the Irish after inviting a group containing them. You don’t – those are all civil rights classes and the customer can’t be refused because of them after the invitation.

Don’t invite people you can’t serve.

ComeOnPeople!

Here we go again… Jews are a race of people, blacks are a race, irish are a race but gay people are just people who made a different lifestyle choice apart from societies norms and the biblical norm. Apples and oranges. I would serve everyone including gays but I would not make something knowingly that says I agree with an unjust law of marriage between a man and a woman. America is diverse and has many many businesses that everyone can frequent and should a business say sorry we can’t make that for you a mature person not trying to push an agenda or make some easy cash… walks down the street and does business with those who will make the item for them.

ʇsǝnƃ

Jews are a religion, not a race. And they are all civil rights classes. Delicious vs Winesap.

And if you can’t sell it as the law requires then don’t sell it. Its become very clear you have no respect for those with different beliefs than yours and you think its dandy to discriminate against customers because of their beliefs. Why not move to a country where religious freedom isn’t a right?

Kelly Samuelson

Making a wedding cake IS taking part in their marriage, duh

ʇsǝnƃ

No more than the bakery that sells me my rolls is taking part in my Thanksgiving dinner.

ComeOnPeople!

Thanksgiving dinner and a sinful act … Apples and oranges . A Christian is against SIN not against a person.

ʇsǝnƃ

What sinful act? There is nothing sinful about running a business legally.

ComeOnPeople!

Men with men is Sin according to God’s word. To compare a Christian who sells buns on Thanksgiving to making a cake for a Gay marriage is apples and oranges. One is a Sin and one is not.

ʇsǝnƃ

No one is a sin FOR YOU, the customer’s have a constitutional and civil right to have their own beliefs.

They can’t sell to sinners why are they in business in a sinful world at all? They have a potential client base of zero.

ComeOnPeople!

And what constitutional rights do those who own businesses have to their own beliefs ? Most people sin yes but few boast about it and want you to agree with what they are doing.

ʇsǝnƃ

Now you’re just making stuff up – more goal post moving and waffling.

They can have their beliefs just as the customers can have theirs. Can’t sell to people of all beliefs don’t make invitations to buy to the general public which includes people of all beliefs.

Can only sell to people who think like them, find like minded people first and then make the invitation to only them. Same as those who can’t sell to blacks, or Jews, or Women.

gogo0

where are the christians that worked to assemble a car that gays would drive to and from their wedding?
how about the christians that worked on construction crews that built roads for gays to drive on as part of their wedding?
or the christians that assembled or created tables, chairs, and other items used at gay weddings?
or the christians that worked to create the building the gay wedding was held in?
the christians that made the cutlery used to cut the cake at a gay wedding?
are they complicit as well? are they taking part in a gay marriage?
the answer is no, and that’s why they are not complaining about it

Kelly Samuelson

You’re comparing apples and oranges. Those roads were not custom made for their wedding, nor was the car, building, or anything else they used. They were asking for a custom made cake from people who did not want to partake in it due to their religious beliefs, where are their rights to freedom of religion. If you can’t fully live out your faith, it’s not really freedom.

gogo0

“If you can’t fully live out your faith, it’s not really freedom.”
does that mean you support mormon polygamy? islam honor killings?
freedom of religion is great, but using freedom of religion to impose your beliefs on others is not great.

ComeOnPeople!

They never imposed their belief on them , they are imposing their belief that gay marriage is ok on them. They were just living there belief and owning a business as a Christian does not mean you have to drop your beliefs at the door and cater to any belief that walks threw it. It’s very one sided.

Chrissy Vee

The anti-Christs here are blind and deaf. They lack spiritual wisdom and understanding. They’ willt never get it. Sometimes we just have to let them say what they will. Answering them is fruitless.

ʇsǝnƃ

And by those words you condemn yourself. Spiritual wisdom would have been a business owner that sold what they invited the public to buy legally or they wouldn’t be offering it at all.

Kelly Samuelson

I’m beginning to understand that. I think I’d have more luck talking to a monkey, or a brick wall, for that matter

ComeOnPeople!

The bible says that after a while God turns a person over to a reprobate mind .

Romans 1

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became VAIN in their IMAGINATIONS, and their FOOLISH HEART was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they BECAME FOOLS, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into AN IMAGE MADE LIKE TO CORRUPTIBLE MAN, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the LUSTS OF THEIR OWN HEARTS, to DISHONOR THEIR OWN BODIES between themselves: Who CHANGE THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO A LIE, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto VILE AFFECTIONS: for even their women did CHANGE the NATURAL USE into that which is AGAINST NATURE: And likewise also the men, LEAVING THE NATURAL use of the woman, burned in their LUSTone toward another; MEN WITH MEN working that which is UNSEEMLY, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their ERROR which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a REPROBATE MIND, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, HATERS of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

BigHobbit

The fact that a business will behave legally for most of their products, doesn’t excuse them behaving illegally for other products.
Businesses are required to behave legally when they sell ALL of their products.
The fact is that if the business will sell wedding cakes to some couples and not to other couples, then they are discriminating. If the basis of that decision is the sexual orientation of the customers, and the state legislature have made that behavior illegal, then they are guilty of illegal discrimination. The fact that they behaved legally on prior occasions doesn’t change the fact that they behaved illegally on THIS occasion.
ALL businesses are required to follow the same rules and regulations.
It does not excuse THIS business’s illegal behavior, to point to the fact that OTHER businesses are behaving legally.
That makes as much sense as a business that has safety issues to say that customers that want to be safe can “just go to other businesses.”

Kelly Samuelson

Their basis of decision wasn’t the sexual oriantation of the customers. It was their strong religious beliefs and the convictions placed on them to not partake in the wedding in any way. Yes they were gay, but even they said that hasn’t stopped them from serving these ladies before. It’s what they were asking for when it went against strong beliefs that they were denied. If they asked a Muslim and were denied, I’m certain they would have said ‘thanks anyway’, and found another baker, there wouldn’t be a lawsuit right now

BigHobbit

It doesn’t matter how strong your convictions are. What matters is if you are violating the law.
If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry.

ComeOnPeople!

Oh so no industry owner is allowed to choose it’s craft based on his beliefs. All people of faith must only practice their beliefs in private.

ʇsǝnƃ

Hardly. If they can only sell to people of certain beliefs the civil rights statutes explain how to do that which is pretty simple:

Find the people you can “in good conscience” sell to first and then invite just them!

BigHobbit

Pick whatever craft you like. If you CHOOSE to sell to the public, then you are CHOOSING to be subject to all the same rules, regulations and laws that everyone else has to follow. If YOUR religion prevents YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, it means that YOUR religion requires you to pick ANOTHER industry.
Nobody gets a religious “right” to violate consumer protection laws.

ComeOnPeople!

And if you are a Christian soon you will not be able to own any form of business in the USA. Our wonderful corrupted system are now passing laws that will take freedom of expression and speech off the table for Christians. They will soon only be able to speak their beliefs in private and only practice said beliefs in private. It’s called censorship and it always happened in history right before that country became no longer free. Corruption hates anyone who will not be forced to it’s departure from Holy TRUTHS. Darkness hates when even one sliver is light is in it’s presence .

BigHobbit

Nonsense. Millions of Christians manage to sell stuff to the public without violating consumer protection laws.
A half dozen extremists are trying to get a special religious “right” to violate the law.

ComeOnPeople!

Millions of people disagree on topics every day. The problem with the LGTB people is they take someone disagreeing with them as hate speech . The LGTB people scream for everyone to be tolerance of their lifestyle and yet they offer none to anyone who disagree with them. They are some of the most hateful, vindictive people I have ever met. Some come out of the closet to their family members and then if their family members disagree they trash them and shun them. Then they cry to the world about how mistreated they are were after coming out. I know this first hand. The family trying to keep relationship and the LGTB pushing them away unless they totally accept their lifestyle . As if family
members don’t disagree on other lifestyle choices yet still remain a
family.

BigHobbit

The problem with this half dozen religious extremists, is that they imagine that personal belief entitles them to violate consumer protection laws.

BigHobbit

If you can’t follow the rules of football, then don’t play football.
You aren’t entitled to your own special religious rules.
Find a game that your religion let’s you behave legally.

ComeOnPeople!

Woot woot how fun a game that allows only one side to play all others must be benched.

BigHobbit

Anyone who wants to play can play, as long as they follow the rules. Millions of Christians are in business in America with no problems playing by the rules .
A half dozen or so are claiming a special “right” to violate consumer protection laws.

ComeOnPeople!

Wondering if a business owner has any protection laws. LOL

BigHobbit

Anyone who is accused of violating a crime has the right to defend themselves, to prove that they did not violate the crime – all criminal defendant are accorded that right.
What these business owners don’t have is the protection of a special religious “right” to violate consumer protection laws.

ʇsǝnƃ

Where has a Muslim refused a customer illegally?

ComeOnPeople!

Oh no don’t speak common sense . Stop they can’t handle it and you may be sued cause you hurt their gay pride or for hate speech. Everyone who disagrees must be silenced it’s the new American way. Freedom of speech only for those who agree.

Kelly Samuelson

It’s not about the cake!!! It’s about their religious beliefs!!! How hard is it to understand that?! They are not discriminating, they are trying to exercise their freedom of religion, which, if you’re a Christian, you clearly don’t have anymore

BigHobbit

You can have ANY religious beliefs you like. You just don’t get a religious “right” to violate consumer protection laws.
If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, you have the perfect religious liberty to do business in ANOTHER industry.
YOUR beliefs, YOUR responsibility to pick a career that YOUR religion allows you to behave legally.

BigHobbit

Millions of Christians manage to sell stuff to the public without violating consumer protection laws. A half dozen extremists are trying to get a special religious “right” to break the law. It isn’t about being Christian, it is about breaking the law.
Every business owner has the same responsibility to know and follow the law. If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior, pick another line of work. Don’t expect your own set of rules.

ComeOnPeople!

Guess what happened right before they rounded up millions of Jews? They labeled them in the media and demonized them with propaganda. They blamed them for social problems and by the time they started rounding them up the public had been brain washed and sat by. True Christians who practice loving others yet hating sin are being called extremists, law breakers, hate mungers etc etc… Get ready folks, history is fixing to be repeated .

BigHobbit

Guess what happened right after whites only segregated restaurants were banned? Most business owners complied, and served blacks. Some got out of the restaurant business. No business was allowed a special privilege of violating the consumer protection laws such as anti discrimination. The racists were not “rounded” up. They were just not permitted to continue to violate the law. Nobody blames the racists for anything, anymore. We just don’t pay any attention to them. In ten years, nobody is going to pay any attention to these religious extremists, either. They are headed for the ash heap of history.

ComeOnPeople!

Apple and oranges . Gay people are not a race of people they are people who have made lifestyle choices that are sinful according to the word of God. And you proved my point with your sentence. History is fixing to repeat it’s self.

BigHobbit

When, in the history of the United States, has a right been retracted once it has been extended? Did women ever not get to vote, once they were allowed to vote? Have we re-criminalized interracial marriage? Has birth control been banned, again? Anyone been re-enslaved recently? Miranda overturned? Sodomy laws suddenly being enforced?
History is indeed repeating itself – everyone was convinced that interracial marriage was going to doom “society”. Now everyone knows that who other people get married to just doesn’t concern them.
Same sex marriage support is growing fast, and continuing – 60% of Americans tell polling companies that they support it, 75% of those under thirty. In Massachusetts, the state that has had the longest experience with SSM, those “strongly opposed” have declined to the national low of only 13%. Thus, where SSM has been the longest, there is the lowest levels of opposition.

BigHobbit

It makes no sense to blame the victim for the location of the crime.
That is like blaming the victim of a mugging for not choosing a different street to walk down.

ComeOnPeople!

I know poor poor victims couldn’t get their cake made by those mean Christians who didn’t want to go against their beliefs. Yet let’s just forget about those mean ole Christians who are being drug threw the ringer, loosing everything they have worked hard for and paying pain and suffering to someone over something that most mature people would have just walked to the next cake shop. SUE Happy gay pride at it’s finest. And even many gays are upset about it and saying it is making them look stupid. The were not victims of a crime. They were told sorry we don’t believe in same sex marriage and cannot use our talent to support it. They could get a cake anywhere but they chose to go where the money is. Can’t sue a cake maker who has no problem with the idea of a marriage between two men or two women. No money in that.

BigHobbit

Millions of Christians manage to engage in public commerce and play by all the rules.
A half dozen extremists are trying to get a special “right” to violate consumer protection laws.

ComeOnPeople!

Yes I have the right as a consumer to shop anywhere I please or to take my business elsewhere. I as a consumer would not purposely go into a place of business that I know does not offer the kind of service I want and then sue and cry foul. PLEASE. They knew the shop was run by Christians so why even ask them to make something knowing full well they were not going to be able to go against their conscious .

ComeOnPeople!

Kinda hard when corrupt Judges and law makers have infiltrating the system. You want Christians to bow down to every perversion known to man… that once was against the law & play fair when the deck is being stack and the rules have totally changed. The rules now have nothing to do with the will of the people but with 1 to 3 % of the population and corrupt courts that forget the rights of others in favor of the 1%.

BigHobbit

Nobody is “bowing down to every perversion known to man.” If you don’t want to follow the rules in public commerce, nobody is forcing you to sell things to the public. If you CHOOSE to sell to the public, you have to follow all the same rules, regulations and laws that every other business owner has to follow.
Millions of Christian business owners have no problem following the laws.
A half dozen religious extremists are trying for a special religious “right” to violate consumer protection laws.

BigHobbit

Anti discrimination laws are enacted by state legislatures. Every one of those representatives are democratically elected. If you don’t like the laws your state legislature enacts, then elect different legislatures.

ComeOnPeople!

Victim ahaha That’s like saying a little boy who knows the answer will be no and asks anyway , then goes off stamping his feet and drawing all kinds of attention to himself … is a victim. All the person had to do is do what most of us do when we are told sorry we can’t make that for you. We go to another place of business that will.

BigHobbit

The law says that you cannot discriminate. If you are caught discriminating, it is YOU that have violated the law. It does no good to complain about the victim or the witness – it is YOUR behavior that has violated the law.

MarcoPolo

That sounds like a sensible option, but do you not see the slippery slope of discrimination against a standing law?
The parties in this case did no such childish stamping…They simply applied their legal rights.

gogo0

theists sure love their made-up fantasies, or do you have any evidence to back up this particular christian persecution wet dream?

ComeOnPeople!

I don’t answer questions that have a perverted slur thrown in. Sorry go to a non Christian site for that.

BarkingDawg

They will lose the appeal.

The state law is pretty clear on what they can and cannot do.

BigHobbit

There has never been a case where a business has won a special religious “right” to violate consumer protection laws such as anti discrimination regulations.
Not at any level, not in any state. 100% losing record.
Discrimination in commerce is a harm.
No one is entitled to a religious “right” to harm others. Not then, not now, not ever.

ʇsǝnƃ

Well as COP! mentions there is the Fayetteville T-shirt case but the ruling on that is flawed – the judge says that two cases that were ruled solely because the parties weren’t public accommodations somehow justify ruling similarly for this admitted public accommodation. The case is being appealed and will most likely be reversed in a higher court.

ComeOnPeople!

No one should be forced to create anything that goes against their artistic expression. That is why they won. No Christian artist should be forced to make anything that goes against their beliefs because those beliefs are expressed in their work. Just as no gay artist should be forces to print or create anything that goes against his freedom of expression. It isn’t just one sided. Gays want everyone to tolerate their ideas and believes, while at the same time being intolerant of anyone who disagrees with them.

ʇsǝnƃ

No one forcing anyone – this business freely offered the public these things knowing full well they couldn’t refuse them because of a civil rights class.

BigHobbit

What is the “Fayetteville T-shirt case ?”

ʇsǝnƃ

Google ‘Hands On Originals Pride’

BigHobbit

Ahhh.
Well that is a different case. Publishers (even tee shirt companies) can make editorial decisions on the content of what they publish.
Same as the hypotheticals about cakes with swastikas or pornographic frosting.
If the tee shirt company would refuse to print similar content for ALL customers, then they are not discriminating on the basis WHO the customers are, rather they are declining WHAT it is that they are selling.

ʇsǝnƃ

Yeah but this was just a shirt that said Fayetteville Pride on it. It was again about who the group was, not about what was being asked for. The business didn’t even have to design it, the group brought their own.

The ruling is flawed, it will be overturned.

BigHobbit

My point is that the point of the case was not that the printer had a religious right to discriminate on the basis of the customer, rather that
the court found that the printer had not discriminated on that basis.
They were found not guilty, they were not found to have a religious “right”to violate the law.
“It is clear beyond dispute that HOO and its owners declined to print the t-shirts in question because of the MESSAGE advocating sexual activity outside of a marriage between one man and one woman,” he wrote. “The well established Constitutional rights of HOO and its owners on this issue is well settled.”
I agree that the ruling is in error – constructively the decision was obviously based on who the customer was, and could very well be reversed.

BigHobbit

If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, you have the perfect religious freedom to do business in ANOTHER industry.
Not every belief is compatible with every career.

BigHobbit

No one is “forced” to follow the rules in public commerce, any more than someone is “forced” to follow the rules in football. If you don’t want to follow the rules, you don’t have to play the game.
Just don’t expect folks to let you have your own special rules.

ʇsǝnƃ

As the recent ruling in Masterpiece Cakes stated – they business is not being forced to do anything – they can’t sell wedding services to the public as the law requires they don’t have to offer wedding services, simple as that.

Julene D

I don’t think I’ve seen such an obvious case of good versus evil in my lifetime, decent people trying to run their business with integrity, persecuted by people who not only try to ruin them financially, but hold them up to public contempt.
How can people have that much hate inside them? If you hate Christians, just avoid doing business with them, that’s how the free market works. Trying to destroy people’s livelihood is just plain wrong.

ʇsǝnƃ

Talk about one sided view. It is the business violating the law and the customer’s civil rights. If they hate gays so much they won’t let them have ‘full enjoyment’ of a service then don’t offer that service to the public.

If they can only sell to people of certain beliefs they need to find those people first and make the offer of sale only to them.

ComeOnPeople!

Yes and sad because true Christians love everyone. The Gay agenda is not only harming relationships with those around them that may just disagree with them but also with those who do. Many Gay videos online are angry about all this nonsense because it is posing them in a bad light. It’s causing people to think of them as intolerant babies who only care for their ideas and want the world to agree or else. Sad, just sad.

JustNTyme

Hate is what drives most political movements. Activists have no love in their life, hate fills an emotional hole inside them.

ʇsǝnƃ

You mean the business that refused a customer rather than just bake them a cake, right? How many speaking tours have they made where the people they criminally treated have been where exactly?

gizmo23

Irrational fear drives most political movements

Tangent002

Good versus evil? Isn’t that hyperbole?

ʇsǝnƃ

read ‘the side I like’ and the side I don’t like’ and it makes sense.

Chip01

How would you know who’s Christian, and who isn’t?

For example, say I want to avoid Christians. I want them to stay away from me
So – please tell me how I know which business is run by a Christian, and which isn’t.

Likewise, I’d like to not do business with people who didn’t think the movie “Finding Nemo” was a true story. Again, how would I know??

Chrissy Vee

1000 upvotes!

BigHobbit

A good part of the fine was because the bakers violated the judges instructions and posted the couples address and phone number online.
It is never a good idea to tick off a judge with vindictive attack on the victims of your illegal discrimination.

Dick Size

false

http://bigdanblogger.blogspot.com/ Big Dan

I’m pretty sure JESUS would’ve given them a cake.

Peter Lacovara

“How can people have that much hate inside them.” Exactly, who will the Kleins refuse next- Jews, Muslims, Blacks, anyone who doesn’t follow their beliefs. Christianity is supposed to be about love and acceptance not intolerance and bigotry. And the “free market” doesn’t entitle you to discriminate either.

For the Kleins’ sake, I hope their lawyer made clear to them how unlikely they are to prevail in this. Oregon law isn’t remotely ambiguous: a public accommodation that sells products and/or services must not discriminate based on sexual orientation, among other categories, including race and religion. Every day the Kleins’ sell wedding cakes to heterosexual couples, but they declined that service to a same sex couples, and made it absolutely clear that’s why they didn’t want that couple’s money. And in Oregon, that’s against the law.

ʇsǝnƃ

it’s all a desperate smoke and mirrors ploy – a 615 page appeal? the Lawyer is trying to retry the case via an appeal and like someone else said most likely the appeal will just be denied because of it.

The only new trick is trying to say the head of the BOLI was biased but that shows a basic mis-understanding of the job. filing a complaint with the BOLI is like filing one with the attorney general – they are supposed to investigate the legitimacy of the complaint and then be the advocate for the plantiff.

This same head of the BOLI was just such an advocate for the Christian dental hygienist who was being pressured by their employer to attend an office running workshop hosted by the Church of Scientology. She was awarded $384,000 – don’t see the usual suspects complaining about that.

and since the BOLI just did their job their’s nothing new in the case.

Nogods

Now that the religious extremists have effectively lost the gay marrage issue, I wonder if they are going to refocus their efforts to enforcing other biblical commands – like demanding the execution of all those that work on the sabbath or the stoning of disobedient children.

Kelly Samuelson

We live in the New Testament, not the old. If you’re going to try and insult us, at least find something from the right testament.

Nogods

But the god of the Old Testament is really the same god of the New Testament – well, if you believe in the trinity that is. And the vast majority of Christians accept the trinity as absolute truth, just like you probably do. So the story goes like this: A god magically impregnated a vir-g-in with himself, so he could give birth to himself, and then sacrifice himself, to himself, to negate the “original sin” of a couple we now know never existed in the first place.

So according to the trinity, the father, the son, and a ghost are all part of an inseparable whole. So Jesus really isn’t any different than the barbaric sadist god of the Old Testament – though it is clear you wish they were. Christianity is a monotheistic religion – you worship just one god – but Christians treat it as polytheistic to separate themselves from the genocidal insanity of god the father documented in the Old Testament. But that can’t be done without being dishonest about your superstitious beliefs. Because I know you don’t worship multiple gods do you – you know, like the early Romans, the Greeks, or the Hin-due-s.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Fyi, at ACTS.15:28-29 in the NT, God has exempted new Gentile Christian adults from all the difficult n burdensome laws of Moses in the OT, eg circumcision, kosher foods, keeping Sabbath on Friday only, etc.
…….In comparison, new Jewish Christian adults or Messianic Jews r required by God to continue to keep all of Moses Law or Jewish laws bc it is not a burden to them.

As for stoning disobedient children, it is common sense for people to, “When in Rome, do what the Romans do”, or follow local laws or “Render unto Caesar/govt what belongs to Caesar n render unto God what belongs to God”.
……. In Saudi Arabia, the govt stone adulterers n homosexuals, n behead blasphemers.

Nogods

“Fyi, at ACTS.15:28-29 in the NT, God has exempted new Gentile Christian adults from all the difficult n burdensome laws of Moses in the OT, eg circumcision, kosher foods, keeping Sabbath on Friday only, etc. …….In comparison, new Jewish Christian adults or Messianic Jews r required by God to continue to keep all of Moses Law or Jewish laws bc it is not a burden to them.

The gospels seem to disagree with you:
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19
“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)
“As for stoning disobedient children, it is common sense for people to, “When in Rome, do what the Romans do”, or follow local laws or “Render unto Caesar/govt what belongs to Caesar n render unto God what belongs to God”.

You should tell your Christians friends that they shouldn’t oppose abortion and gay marriage because, “it is common sense for people to, “When in Rome, do what the Romans do”, or follow local laws or “Render unto Caesar/govt what belongs to Caesar n render unto God what belongs to God”.

That is what it would look like if the bible were taken literally or the Ten Commandments were enforced as law.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Fyi, at MATT.5:17-19, Jesus Christ was addressing His fellow Jews, n not Christians. Christians only began to exist after His Crucifixion n Resurrection, ie Jewish Christians n then Gentile Christians.
……. The Jews kept all of Moses Law during the time of JC.(= about 30AD)

Similarly, at MATT.10:5, JC commanded His 12 apostles to avoid ministering n preaching the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles n Samaritans. JC did the same, ie only went to the Jews.
…….This changed at ACTS.9 & 10 when God/Jesus gave exemption to His apostles/disciples to also preach to the Gentiles, after most of the Jews had stubbornly rejected Jesus as their Christ/Messiah/Savior.

If Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh does return to earth n set up His Millennial kingdom/govt, there will be no place 4 u, eg maybe u will be stoned to death like in Saudi Arabia or Sodom n Gomorrah.

Nogods

“Fyi, at MATT.5:17-19, Jesus Christ was addressing His fellow Jews, n not Christians. Christians only began to exist after His Crucifixion n Resurrection, ie Jewish Christians n then Gentile Christians.
……. The Jews kept all of Moses Law during the time of JC.(= about 30AD)”

Similarly, at MATT.10:5, JC commanded His 12 apostles to avoid ministering n preaching the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles n Samaritans. JC did the same, ie only went to the Jews.

FYI – in Matthew, Jesus was addressing all his followers. And he commanded them to keep the law.

“…….This changed at ACTS.9 & 10 when God/Jesus gave exemption to His apostles/disciples to also preach to the Gentiles, after most of the Jews had stubbornly rejected Jesus as their Christ/Messiah/Savior.”

And this does not negate the clear comments found in the gospels.

“If Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh does return to earth n set up His Millennial kingdom/govt, there will be no place 4 u, eg maybe u will be stoned to death like in Saudi Arabia or Sodom n Gomorrah.”

Such are the ways of sadistic dictators.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

[ “FYI – in Matthew, Jesus was addressing all his followers. And he commanded them to keep the law.” ]
.
No, u r wrong n taking Scripture or the Word of God out of its proper context.

Below is Jesus Christ addressing ALL believers: …….

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
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JOHN.20: = 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

That You May Believe

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
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The whole book of REVELATION.

Nogods

You are just cheery picking. As an example, Christians read Matthew and accept it as the word of their god. You just choose to ignore the parts you don’t like.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

MATT.5: = 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Was Jesus Christ telling ALL believers to pluck out their eyes n chop off their limbs, in order to be saved from hell.?

I was not cherry-picking the Word of God/Scripture, but putting it in its proper context for proper understanding of Scripture.

Nogods

You are taking those verses literally when they are obviously metaphoric spoken to everyone.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

So, what do those non-literal verses at MATT.5:29-30 metaphorically mean to everyone.?

Nogods

Well, it is obvious that hands and eyes don’t sin. It is only the mind, which controls the hands and eyes, that sins.

The verse says to remove that which sins so it does not corrupt the whole. So you remove the bad apple to prevent spoiling the whole cart of apples.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Bingo.! ……. God will be sending ALL people to hell bc they often involuntarily committed thought-sins with their minds n hearts, except for believers in Jesus Christ.
…….ROM.5:12 & 3:23 say that the cause of this is Adam’s Original Sin, ie ALL people r born in sin, starting involuntarily with their hearts n minds, n then voluntarily with their eyes n limbs, eg from immoral lust with their hearts n minds to adultery, rape, fornication, pedophilia, incest, etc. To be saved from hell, they hv to be “born-again” of the Spirit of God.
…….1JOHN.3:8 says the spiritual source of all sin is the devil, ie the talking serpent who beguiled Eve.

Only the blood of JC could atone for people’s inborn Adamic sin, thus saving them from hell by faith.(LEV.17:11, HEB.9:22)

It is not just the voluntary committing of murder, adultery, stealing, perjury/lying/cheating, etc with their eyes, lips n limbs that will be sending people to hell.
…….The Pharisees falsely thought that they were saved from hell(= going to heaven) by keeping Moses Law or not committing murder, adultery, etc. JC told them, “Not so”, ie they were still bound for hell when they die, even though they hv kept the Law bc they had still sinned with their hearts n minds n did not accept Him as their Christ/Messiah/Savior.

There is a big difference between people’s involuntary sin-in-thoughts n voluntary sin-in-deeds. The former has the consequence of being sent to hell by God. The latter has the consequence of being cursed/punished by God or His agents(eg police/govt) with a bad, non-peaceful n short life on earth.

Nogods

Did you know that Adam and Eve weren’t real people? They are fictional characters. Really.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Whatever the belief is, it is a real/true fact that people often look at others n involuntarily lust at them immorally in their hearts.
…….At MATT.5:27-30, the Word of God says that these people will be going to hell, unless they pluck out their eyes or hv Jesus Christ in their hearts.
……. People hv the freedom of choice to choose what they belief but fact is fact, wrt people’s evil/sinful hearts.

If there is a kingdom of heaven or the abode of God after people’s death, it will not tolerate the presence of people with such evil/sin in their hearts, ie immoral lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fear/worry, doubt, etc.

Nogods

How old are you?

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Old enough. How old r u.?

Nogods

Old enough to suspect that you are a brainwashed cult member.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Old enough to suspect u r a foolish atheist who may likely end up in hell.

Nogods

Were is hell?

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

A place of eternal suffering that God sends unbelievers to after they die on earth.
……. It may be like being stuck forever in the hot n burning planet, Mercury.

Ken M

Aww, poor troll, are all your porn sites down?

Nogods

Another Christian projecting. Sad.

Ken M

No, you atheists are sad, so bored you can’t find anything to do with your pathetic lies but bash Christians. No wonder your suicide rates are higher than ours, you’ve got nothing.

Nogods

Are the ad hominems what they are teaching in church these days!

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

[ “Such are the ways of sadistic dictators.” ]

Well, God did give u the freedom of choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ/Messiah n His coming kingdom/govt.
…….Like Obama said to the conservative Republicans after he had won the 2012 election, “There r consequences to an election”.
…….So, enjoy yr satanic kingdom/govt of USA while u can b4 the Day of Reckoning comes.

FYI, under the liberals, USA has become a morally n financially bankrupt govt/kingdom of earth, which is unlike Jesus Christ’s kingdom of heaven.

Nogods

FYI – Threatening to throw someone into a lake of fire has an undeniable and profound influence on “freedom to choose.” If you point a gun to someone’s head, you can get them to do anything. And that is exactly the effect the Christian god’s threat has on “freedom of choice.” Many Christians, particularly Protestant fundamentalists, openly admit that the threat of eternal damnation has influenced their “choice” which renders it not so free after all.

Isn’t it odd to think that there are an infinite variety of things the christian god could do that would immediately and unequivocally convince everyone of his existence. And if he did ANY ONE OF THEM, NO ONE WOULD GO TO HELL. Yet, he chooses to not do any of them. Do you think it is because he is identical to all the other gods we now regard as mythology?

So when Jesus finally returns to dispense his 1st century barbarism, do you think he is going to go door-to-door and shoot non-believers in the face, or do you think he will really want to get his hands dirty and hack off heads with a dull knife like the Muslims like to do? More importantly, are you going to just sit by and watch the slaughter unfold, maybe enjoy a little popcorn and a cold drink, or do you think you will join in on the religious cleansing?

So what advice would you give Jesus when he returns as how to most effectively and efficiently murder all the non believers? Stoning people to death is so 1st century don’t you think? I know the Muslims still do it, but it really is not an efficient way to murder a lot of people. It is also pretty messy: blood everywhere – and expensive – you have to pay people to clean that up, not to mention the cost of all the rocks. Maybe Jesus could learn a thing or two from Hitler? Just a thought. Hitler had a system down. I think Jesus is really going to need a system like that as well. What do you think? You know, kind of an assembly-line-gas-chamber-kind-of-thing. There might be some old plans of Hitler’s you could find on the internet. You might want to look that up before Jesus returns and have it ready for his review. I am sure he would appreciate the planning and it really shows initiative on your part.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

[ “FYI – Threatening to throw someone into a lake of fire has an undeniable
and profound influence on “freedom to choose.” If you point a gun to
someone’s head, you can get them to do anything. And that is exactly the
effect the Christian god’s threat has on “freedom of choice.” “]

Well, doesn’t the US govt also threatened to put people in jail or execute them if they commit murder, treachery to the govt, army desertion, rape, robbery, fraud, racketeering/conspiracy, etc, in order to get them to toe the Law.?
……. Did u hate Obama for saying, “Election has consequences”.? Isn’t an election in USA the freedom of choice of the people to choose their govt/kingdom.?

Nogods

You can be the most upstanding citizen on the planet; donate all your time and money to helping the sick, hungry, poor; never lie, cheat, or steal; and harbor an honest belief that the Christian god is exactly like all the other gods we commonly refer to as mythology, and Christians believe their god will burn you in hell forever! That only makes sense to a brainwashed cult member.

Isn’t jesus just like Hitler: Hitler murdered all those that didn’t believe in him. But he took good care of his friends. And just like Hitler, Christians believe that Jesus will murder all those that don’t believe in him. But he will take good care of his friends. So if you are a sane and rational person who would never follow Hitler, why would you follow Jesus?

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

And what happened to Hitler n all his friends.? A similar thing will happen to the unbelieving liberal political leaders of the Blue States n all their LGBTQ, atheist n feminist friends when Jesus Christ returns to earth.
……. To paraphrase Obama, “Unbelief has consequences.”.

Nogods

Do you think Jesus is going to shoot all 4.5 billion non believers or stone them to death?

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

MATT.24:37 = But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
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All I know, is that millions of unbelievers n scoffers/mockers will die horribly, similar to the Great Flood of Noah.
…….But take heart n be cheerful that just b4 this happens, many thousands of Christians will be persecuted/prosecuted or martyred by the liberals-dominated US govt n other worldly govts, just like what the prophets, apostles n disciples of Christ/God had experienced.

Nogods

What an interesting doomsday cult you belong to.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Fyi, to the Jews n Pharisees who lived during the time of Jesus Christ n His apostles, n had rejected Jesus as their Christ/Messiah/Savior, 70AD was like a Doomsday for them, when many of them were massacred n their one n only Holy Temple of God in Jerusalem was destroyed by the mighty Roman Army.
……. Thereafter, a small remnant of the Jews were exiled/ejected from their nation of Israel/Judah to become refugees elsewhere, eg in Europe.

So, it will not be surprising if there is a real Doomsday for modern-day unbelievers who also hv rejected Jesus Christ, just like what happened to the Jews n Pharisees in 70AD.

Nogods

What a sadistic dictator your god is.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Well, do u like to share yr home, wealth n possessions with unrepentant ex-felons/prisoners who were convicted murderers, rapists, robbers, fraudsters, pedophiles, etc.?
…….So, in the same way, God does not share His eternal home/heaven, wealth n possessions with people who hv evil/sins in their hearts, what more with ex-felons/sinners/evildoers/ /law-breakers, unless they hv been born-again with new hearts thru Jesus Christ.

An ever-elusive perfect earth or Utopia is a reflection of the coming kingdom of heaven.

Nogods

Isn’t it odd that the bargain Christianity offers is almost identical to the demands made by ISIS: Convert to Christianity or the Christian god will murder you? The only difference is that the Muslim followers are threatening to do the killing as opposed to the Christian god. But from the PERSPECTIVE OF A CHRISTIAN, who is more powerful, capable, and certain of carrying out such a sadistic plan: the followers of a god, which are mere mortals, or the Christian god – the all-powerful creator of the universe? So if we universally condemn the threat made by ISIS as sadistic and counter to basic ideas of liberty and justice, shouldn’t we condemn Christianity in even stronger terms in light of the unwavering christian belief in this perceived certainty that the Christian god will carry out the threat?

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Like I said b4, “When in Rome, do what the Romans do”. If u do not like Roman Law or ISIS Law or Saudi Law, go somewhere else.

For Christians trapped in ISIS-ruled regions, many were martyred, rather than renounced their faith/belief in Jesus Christ. The Bible/Scripture/Word of God says that they will be resurrected by God into His kingdom/govt.(1THESS.4:16)
…….Those Christians who submitted to ISIS, renounced God/Jesus(= the sin of blasphemy) n converted to Islam hv lost their salvation-in-Christ.

Fyi, most of Jesus Christ’s apostles n disciples were similarly martyred by the Roman Emperor/govt, ie for refusing to worship the Emperor as their God.

Nogods

I guess Muslim extreamists murdering Christians is just part of Jesus’s plan. Who are we to mess with the plan, right?

Thankfully, the US constitution protects a woman’s right to choose. I guess the Christians that disagree with this should just move. I am glad we can agree on something.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Like I said b4, Christians can either move elsewhere or be persecuted/martyred for their faith or submit n lose their salvation.

In USA, there is Amish country or Utah or the conservative Red States.

Nogods

I would think that Christians would prefer to just get murdered. Then they get to be with Jesus sooner. Doesn’t that sound like the best idea?

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Christians foolishly getting themselves murdered is similar to committing suicide or murdering themselves, eg a US Christian going to ISIS country, Iran, Pakistan or NKorea, which is against God’s/ /Moses Law at EXO.20:13 = “U shall not murder”.
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Presently, many countries do not persecute or martyr Christians, esp in the West; at least not yet.

gizmo23

Then stop quoting Leviticus and talking about Sodom and Gomorrah

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

Pls see my post to Nogo-s.

gizmo23

So why do anti gay people quote the OT and always remind us of Sodom and Gomorrah ?

Chrissy Vee

I will take the money I will no longer be spending at Target and very happily donate it to the Kleins. Seeing as there are just about 1.000.000 people boycotting Target, if all of us were to send just one dollar each to all the victims of these frivilous agenda pushing law suits, I think that would be awesome. We could help repair the lives these fools are trying to ruin.

ʇsǝnƃ

Who’s trying to ruin anyone?

BarkingDawg

There’s a sucker born every minute and a preacher to take him.

ComeOnPeople!

There’s a sinner born every minute and a devil to lead him to destruction.

Gary Whiteman

You prefer liberal politicians, they don’t like voluntary contributions, they prefer to coerce it out of unwilling citizens through taxes. If people choose to give money to preachers, that is no business of yours. Atheists are unable to mind their own business.

This style ten and six

Conservative politicians levy taxes as well. You drive on roads, expect police protection and enjoy the others benefits of society. Why should you not pay for them?

Jalapeno

Seems odd to try to give money to people because they’re refusing to follow the law.

Chrissy Vee

Yes, I am sure it would seem odd to you.

Jalapeno

Yeah, there’s this whole thing where I don’t believe in rewarding people for bad behavior.

Crazy.

Chrissy Vee

Yeah.

Gary Whiteman

Sick people, taking pleasure in someone else’s suffering.

Grim Reaper

This has got to be one of the most assnine decisions ever made by some jackass buerucrat. This unconstitutional pandering to morons has got to stop. The whole gay agenda is evil and wicked, and a bane against the values of true Christians. Forcing it down one’s throat is akin to rape.

Gena B

What about putting only 5 different kinds of wedding cakes for sale and no special orders. If a couple buys it, then it’s like buying cupcakes or a pie. Sad. Or don’t sell wedding cakes, make them have a minimum donation price for the cake then the money is donated to the local church.

Donar

Your commenting guidelines contain a phrase that sums up your christian beliefs “we will not tolerate”! You have no place in a tolerant society, go away and take your jebus with you! BTW these “christian bakers” have no chance of salvation as they have “marked” themselves and are unclean.

disqus_O2BUmbLecp

The liberals of the Blue States only tolerate the LGBTQs bc they want their votes.
…….Whereas, this Christian news website mostly only want Christian n interested readers, n not anti-Christian trolls n rabble-rousers, like the Black rioters n looters in Ferguson n Baltimore whom the liberals had also tolerated n appeased.

http://bigdanblogger.blogspot.com/ Big Dan

On the one hand, I can see the point of the people on the side of the “baker”s. On the other hand, wtf is wrong with them? Can’t you just make them a f*cking cake? Why ya gotta be a jackass?

Dick Size

““In America, you’re protected by the Constitution and you’re also innocent until proven guilty,” said Kelly Shackelford” — obviously not

Dick Size

So now I can force bakers to make “Heil Hitler” cakes?

Grace Kim Kwon

Gay wedding is like a Satanic worship to the Christians. Secular Western culture is so wrong to force people to uphold sexual immorality unconditionally. The West has no morality apart from Christianity. Not-submitting to the well-fed Sodom is a human right. Liberty is for keeping the Word of God and a clear conscience. The Westerners and their mimickers must remember that.

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