Here is my farcical email to-and-fro with Canon with regard to the claims of professional depth of field control for the Canon 5DmkII made in their Canon 5DmkII White Paper.

Don't bother reading if you are easily frustrated or you might expire. :zombie_smiley:

(emails are generally spaced a day or so apart unless otherwise indicated).

If you can't be bothered reading the whole lot (and I don't blame you) let me sum it up like this:

Canon: the 5DmkII has the kind of DOF control found only on professional video cameras.

Customer: What is this DOF control ?

Canon: you have to walk towards or away from your subject or reframe your shot (swap the lens or zoom).

Customer: Do you consider that to be the kind of DOF control found on only professional video cameras ?

Canon: Having to physically move the camera or adjust the focal length is simply the way the camera works.

Customer: Do you consider that to be the kind of DOF control found on only professional video cameras ?

Canon: we are sorry we cannot answer that question.

Customer: Then will you at least confirm that you state in your promotional literature that "the 5DmkII has the kind of DOF control found only on professional video cameras." and that you also explain this proffesional DOF control as "you have to walk towards or away from your subject or reframe your shot (swap the lens or zoom)."? - Can you confirm that these two statements are correct ? A simple yes or no will do.

Canon: The answer cannot be made[sic] by a simple yes or no.

Customer: Can you simply confirm these two statements are correct, yes or no ?

Canon: "we do not have any other answers for you regarding the EOS 5D Mark II."

--------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow here come the emails . . . .

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . .

To whom it may concern.

We recently bought the new Canon 5D mkII specifically for the advertised video functionality and to replace our Canon HV20 and HV30 camcorders. We were sufficiently impressed with samples we had seen and the features outlined in your 'Canon 5DmkII WHITE PAPER' to decide on the camera.

But I must say I was somewhat disappointed to find that the video mode has been entirely automated with only an auto-exposure lock and an exposure compensation dial to brighten or darken the image. What this dial controls (aperture / ISO / shutter speed) is not under the user's control and varies depending on what the camera selects.

Simply put, the user has no control over what aperture is chosen when in video mode, the camera meters the scene and makes a selection for you - removing creative choice and - crucially - removing control over your depth-of-field.

This seems to negate the claims made by Canon.

Please take a look at this extract from the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER: (page 6)

>>". . . photographers and videographers can capture high definition video with **depth-of-field control found only in professional video models**—using much more affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye, ultra-wide, and image stabilized lenses."<<

It clearly makes the claim that not only does the camera offer control over the depth-of-field, but such that it can be compared with the kind of control normally exclusive to 'professional video models'.

The thing is - that without control over aperture, there is no control over the depth of field, not just that the control is less than 'professional', but that there is none whatsoever.

The WHITE PAPER concludes (on the final page) with the same claim:

>>"Alternatively, professional videographers will be drawn to the EOS 5D Mark II’s unique depth of field control"<<

This once again unambiguously makes the claim that there is control over the depth-of-field, indeed - to a level that would be of interest to 'professional videographers' rather than the actual reality of the situation which is: no control at all over depth-of-field.

For the moment we have followed the lead of many technical savvy videographers we have spoken to online, and are planning to buy Nikon lenses (with a Nikon to EOS adaptor) as these lenses have a manual aperture ring and allow full control over depth of field.

This a less than ideal solution as features such as auto-focus, Image stabilization and metering are lost, but at the end of the day it is the depth of field that a large sensor and 35mm lenses offer that is this camera's real draw and less so these other features (something your marketing people are aware of, if not entirely accurate in their promotion).

So . . . .

This leads me to a question:

Is there a firmware update planned that will address this limitation ?

Thanks for taking the time to read this rather long letter.

All the best

XXXXXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:20 AM

Response from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXX (me)

Thank you for writing to us with your feedback. We appreciate you
taking the time to share your comments with us regarding the EOS 5D Mark
II.

The exposure compensation setting will tell the camera to adjust the
exposure, not exactly whether it should adjust the aperture or ISO
speed. The camera will vary the aperture and ISO speed automatically
based on what it determines is best. Unfortunately, we do not have any
information regarding future versions of the firmware for your EOS 5D
Mark II.

We have forwarded your comments to Canon USA through our Customer
Feedback process. This process allows us to capture important feedback
from our valued customers. As we constantly strive to improve our
products and services, your comments are vital to our continued success.

For important product updates, including available drivers and product
notifications, please visit Canon's Web site at
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:20 AM

My reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

Thank you for your quick response.

You say:

> The exposure compensation setting will tell the camera to adjust the
> exposure, not exactly whether it should adjust the aperture or ISO
> speed. The camera will vary the aperture and ISO speed automatically
> based on what it determines is best.

I am aware of this, in fact it's the very thing I am pointing out !! (You missed shutter speed out of the equation, it is also another unknown that compounds the issue.)

Can I conclude from this reply that the claim of depth-of-field control (indeed, professionally so) in the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER is incorrect and in reality there is no depth-of-field control ?

We are sorry for any confusion, but what is stated in the White Papers
for the EOS 5D Mark II and the surrounding details is only describing
the fact that the EOS 5D Mark II has a much greater ability to control
the depth of field by using certain lenses because of the nature of an
SLR camera, which is far greater than most HD camcorders are capable of.
The aperture itself is controlled by the camera directly and it is not
intended to imply that the aperture can be manually controlled by the
user. Once again, we apologize for any confusion this caused.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:21 AM

My reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

Once again I must say I appreciate your prompt response, most large companies are notoriously slow when dealing with customers enquires online, it is refreshing to see company as large as Canon deal so swiftly with it's customer's issues.

Back to the point at hand, if I read your response correctly it appears to be saying that a (D)SLR will give you a greater depth-of-field than most HD camcorders.

I do not disagree with that, it is axiomatic if we consider the size of the 5D's sensor compared to a typical HD camcorder.

But my question is about the claims for 'control' of depth-of-field. You say that the 5D mkII has "a much greater ability to control the depth of field by using certain lenses". To be clear: imagine I have a person framed against a suitable background (let us imagine some trees for instance) - now let's imagine that the camera chooses a relatively high f stop (necessarily negating a shallow depth-of-field) how would you suggest I proceed to achieve a shallow depth-of-field, to utilise the 'greater ability to control the depth of field' that the 5D has ?

If it becomes necessary for the camera to choose an aperture that will
actually widen the depth-of-field instead of making in more shallow,
there is no setting on the camera that would allow you to manually
override that decision and choose a wide aperture for shallow
depth-of-field. The information in the White Papers is saying that
because this is an EOS camera and you have a wide selection of lenses to
choose from, you can use a lens that would normally provide extremely
shallow depth-of-field because it has such a wide maximum aperture, such
as the EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM lens. Using such a lens will give the
camera a better range of control of the depth-of-field, but does not
ensure that it will be able to use the widest aperture at all times.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:23 AM

My reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXX

You say:

> If it becomes necessary for the camera to choose an aperture that will
> actually widen the depth-of-field instead of making in more shallow,
> there is no setting on the camera that would allow you to manually
> override that decision and choose a wide aperture for shallow
> depth-of-field.

Would you agree with me when I say that by this answer we are saying that the 5D mkII offers no user control over the depth-of-field ?

You also say:

> you can use a lens that would normally provide extremely shallow
> depth-of-field because it has such a wide maximum aperture.

But the 5D mkII will not allow you to select this maximum aperture, simply put lens choice will not offer *"extremely shallow depth-of-field because it has such a wide maximum aperture"* because the choice of aperture is not predicated on the maximum aperture but what the camera has metered.

Here is a simple question to illustrate my point:

I am shooting a scene and my camera has decided on f11, I am using a f4 lens, but would like a shallower depth-of-field.

So I take off this lens and replace it with an f1.2, what would you suppose the camera will now choose as it's f stop ? . . .

. . . Of course the question is largely rhetorical, as we both know the amount of light hitting the sensor (at f11) has not changed and this is what the camera will choose - f11 - just like it choose f11 on the f4 lens because aperture choice is predicated on the metering system not on what lens you have chosen. So not only will lens choice not give you any *control* over depth-of-field, it will not even give you a *shallower* depth-of-field in the same situation as a slower lens.

So, and apologies for being so persistent, where might I look to find the *'depth-of-field control [of the kind] found only in professional video models'* ? I genuinely cannot see any depth-of-field control at all, even with your suggestion that it might come through lens choice, which we can show to be erroneous.

Set up a scene, the camera chooses f11 - you cannot alter this - swap the lens from an f4 to a faster f1.2 - reframe the scene - result the camera chooses f11 - you cannot alter this.

Where here is the control over depth-of-field ? How should I proceed to lower the depth-of-field, or is there simply no control over the depth-of-field ?

If you need depth of field control, then the Aperture [value] priority
[Av] mode would be the best choice. It would allow you to lock in any
aperture, and thereby depth of field, that you want. The EOS 5D Mark II
certainly has complete user control, as do most DSLR cameras. We
apologize for any inconvenience this causes you at this time.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:25 AM

my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

XXX (new support staff member, not the previous one I have been talking to).

Thanks for your reply.

Would it be possible to continue my correspondence with XXXXXXX ? I feel I was getting somewhere - even if it was only an admission of the 5D mkII's lack of depth-of-field control for videographers - but now I feel I am being taken back to step 1 of this conversation.

For clarity:

I am making an unambiguous enquiry with regard to the promised depth-of-field control - advertised in the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER for videographers.

Aperture priority mode has no bearing on the settings used in video mode, you can change the aperture to what you wish, these settings will not be honoured in the video mode.

If you are suggesting this is the case, I would suggest a brief familiarization with the camera, if you are referring to still photography mode I suggest a brief familiarization with the context of my enquiry.

You say:

> "The EOS 5D Mark II
> certainly has complete user control"

It is all very well making this claim in your correspondence, promotional literature and publications, but we need also to see this as a demonstrable fact by having it enabled it in the camera itself.

Again, in case you have not taken the time to read my enquiry in full, I am talking about the video mode.

So, can I get you to agree to the following statement:

The 5D mkII offers no control over depth-of-field for videographers.

If you do not agree to this statement and continue to follow the theme of the promotional literature . . .

> "Alternatively, professional videographers will be drawn to the EOS 5D Mark IIís unique depth of field control"

> "photographers and videographers can capture high definition video with **depth-of-field control found only in professional video models"

. . . can you then explain how the 5D mkII user can control the depth-of-filed when in video mode ?

My apologies I was writing in reference to using the 5D Mark II as a
still camera, not a video camera. The movie mode is essentially
operating in Program mode and you no control of either aperture or
shutter speed. This is regardless of which mode the camera is set to
for still shooting.

Exposure control is limited to the exposure compensation function of the
camera and you may also use exposure lock. With the EOS 5D Mark II,
depth of field in movie mode can be effectively controlled by adjusting
camera to subject distance and lens focal length. To increase depth of
field in movie mode, move away from the subject and/or reduce the focal
length of the lens. To reduce depth of field in movie mode, move closer
to the subject and/or increase the focal length of the lens.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:26 AM

my reply toCanon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXX

You say:

> With the EOS 5D Mark II,
> depth of field in movie mode can be effectively controlled by adjusting
> camera to subject distance and lens focal length. To increase depth of
> field in movie mode, move away from the subject and/or reduce the focal
> length of the lens. To reduce depth of field in movie mode, move closer
> to the subject and/or increase the focal length of the lens.

This is not the 5D mkII offering you control over depth of field, this is you (the user) controlling depth of field by walking towards or walking away from your subject, to suggest that this control is facilitated by the camera itself is nothing short of sophistry !

You can of course do this with any camera or camcorder, this technique could not be in any way considered a feature of the 5D mkII, as it is separate, outside the camera, indeed nothing to do with the camera. As this technique can be done with any camera should we now consider that any and all cameras have "depth-of-field control found only in professional video models" ?

For clarity: being able to walk away from or towards a subject is not a feature of the camera.

Would you say that that this is the kind of control over depth-of-field found on professional video cameras ?

We very much apologize that the EOS 5D Mark II isn't working the way you
expected it would. The EOS 5D Mark II is a DSLR that offers HD
shooting, if it doesn't work in the manner that you require, then you
may want to consider simply shooting with a camcorder. I wish that I
could offer you more information on this issue that would satisfy your
inquiries.

I have forwarded your comments to Canon USA through our Customer
Feedback process regarding the functions of the camera. This process
allows us to capture important feedback from our valued customers. As
we constantly strive to improve our products and services, your comments
are vital to our continued success.

For important product updates, including available drivers and product
notifications, please visit Canon's Web site at
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:28 AM

my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXX

You say:

> "We very much apologize that the EOS 5D Mark II isn't working the way you
> expected it would."

My expectations are predicated on how I am told the camera will function by Canon.

My complaint is not that the 5D mkII does not function the way I expected it to, my complaint is that it does not function the way that is suggested in your promotional literature.

It clearly, and more than once, promotes the idea that the 5D mkII has 'amazing' and 'professional' depth-of-field control:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

To control the depth of field, changing the distance between you and the
subject, or changing the focal length being used is recommended. These
are the only means at your own control for changing the depth of field.
The aperture cannot be manually changed, as it is only automatically set
by the camera.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:30 AM

my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXX

I have been told this once already, I have responded to this suggestion already, so I hope you don't mind if I reprise the theme of what I wrote previously.

You say:

> To control the depth of field, changing the distance between you and the
> subject, or changing the focal length being used is recommended. These
> are the only means at your own control for changing the depth of field.

Taking into account the claims put forward in the promotional literature:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

**". . . and none that had the depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II . . ."**

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras? (Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?)

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?

You can of course do this with any camera or camcorder, should we now consider that any and all cameras have "depth-of-field control found only in professional video models" ?

Once again I apologise for being so persistent, but if my questions are ignored again I will simply keep repeating them in the hope that they will be answered, I hope you do not consider this an unreasonable position to take.

All the best,

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:31 AM

Canon's reply

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXXX (me)

My name is XXXX and I am the Online Support Coordinator for Email
Support here at Canon ITS. Your email was forwarded to me for a reply.

I have looked over the answers provided by our technicians, and the
information provided is correct. We do apologize if there has been any
confusion regarding the video feature of the EOS 5D Mark II, but the
depth of field does function as stated by the technicians. While the
EOS 5D Mark II is able to capture very high quality video, it is still
primarily a still image camera. Because of this, depth of field cannot
be changed during shooting in any other way but the manual moving on the
lens or camera towards or away from the subject.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:31 AM

My reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX (I am now dealing with the third support staff member.)

Thank you for your reply, I have two very simple questions that I have asked three times now and each time they seem to be side stepped ?

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras? (Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?)

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?

Once again I apologise for being so persistent, but if my questions are ignored again I will simply keep repeating them in the hope that they will be answered, I hope you do not consider this an unreasonable position to take.

Thank you

XXXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:34 AM

Canon's reply

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence.

The EOS 5D Mark II is capable of very fine depth of field control.
However, since the camera is primarily a still-image camera, it is not
able to automatically change aperture or focal length during an
exposure. If this is absolutely required for a particular video shoot,
then you would need to either move the camera or adjust the focal length
of the lens manually. This is simply the way that the camera operates.

I do apologize if this does not answer you questions as you have them
written, but it is the information that we have available to us.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:34 AM

my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXX

Could you please answer my questions ?

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras? (Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?)

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?

All the best.

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:35 AM

Canon's reply

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence.

The video quality of the EOS 5D Mark II is certainly equal to that of a
HD camcorder. However, as I have previously stated, this model is
primarily a still camera and aperture and focal length cannot be
automatically changed during an exposure.

The control mentioned in the document ion for the EOS 5D Mark II is due
to the range of EF lenses available it the EOS camera system. As noted
in the White Paper for the EOS 5D Mark II:

Depth of field at any given aperture increases as focal length
decreases, so for most focal length positions on a typical HD camcorder,
it's nearly impossible to blur background elements when shooting a
portrait or closeup. On the other hand, even an EF 50mm f/1.4 USM lens
mounted on an EOS 5D Mark II will provide narrower depth of field at all
apertures compared to the fully zoomed-in focal length on most
camcorders. And few video cameras in existence can match the narrow
depth of field of Canonís EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM lens used by many
top-end portrait shooters. Because of these unique video recording
traits and the versatility provided by Canonís EF lens system, the EOS
5D Mark II should be as attractive to serious videographers as it is to
advanced and professional still photographers.

If this does not answer you inquiry fully, I would recommend contacting
Canon's Corporate Office, and they should be able to further assist you:

CANON U.S.A. Inc.
One Canon Plaza
Lake Success, NY. 11042

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:36 AM

My reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

I have asked you two very simple questions, I shall set them out here once more:

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras?

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?

In your responses you are promoting the idea that changing focal length and moving towards or away from your subject are "professional" and "amazing" depth-of-field controls found "only in professional video models", so can you please clarify this point by addressing my questions.

All the best

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:37 AM

Canon's response

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX (me)

If a person were to purchase a video camera, then it would be expected
that aperture and focal length could be changed automatically. However,
the EOS 5D Mark II is primarily a still camera and so is different than
a video camera. Having to physically move the camera or adjust the
focal length is simply the way the camera works. Just as settings
cannot be changed in the middle of a still image exposure, they cannot
be changed by the camera during a video exposure.

As mentioned in the White Paper, the EF lenses available to be used on
the EOS 5D Mark II provides depth of field options that would not be
found on most HD video cameras. That is the depth of field control
referred to in the documentation for the EOS 5D Mark II. If there was
ever confusion on this point, we do apologize.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXX
Online Support Coordinator

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:39 AM

My response to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

XXXXXXXXXX

As you have not answered my questions I shall ask them again, if you decide to ignore them once more could you at least explain why it is you feel the need to side-step these questions ?

> "Having to physically move the camera or adjust the focal length is simply the way the camera works"

Q: Would you call having to walk towards or away from your subject the kind of depth-of-field control found "only in professional video models" ?

Q: And would you also call having to walk towards or away from your subject "amazing depth-of-field control" ?

Q: And can having to walk towards or away from your subject be in anyway considered a feature of the 5D mkII. ?

All the best.

XXXXXXXX (me).

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:40 AM

To Canon (I seemed to have hit 'radio silence' on the last reply :( maybe they don't like me any more :o :( . . )

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

It looks like you are unable to answer my previous questions, so I will attempt to clarify what it is you are saying by another route.

Can you answer this very simple question.

Q: Would you agree with me when I say that Canon's own literature makes the following claim with regard to depth-of-field control: "With [movie mode] activated, photographers and videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ." ?

All the best.

XXXXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:41 AM

from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXXX (me)

I do apologize that I am not able to answer you questions as you have
them written. The way they are phrased they require opinions to be
given which are beyond my ability to give (ie. I am not a professional
videographer, nor am I a design engineer). The information I am able to
provide are the specifications of the camera and how it works.

What I can say is that the depth of field control referred to in the
documentation of the EOS 5D Mark II is in regards to the lenses
available for use, which provide greater depth of field options than the
vast majority of HD video cameras as stated in the White Paper for the
EOS 5D Mark II:

"Until now, there were no affordable 1080p HD video camcorders able to
capture ultrawide or fisheye perspectives without the addition of
distortion-producing adapter lenses, and none that had the
depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II. There are several
reasons for this: all current 3-chip HD camcorders, even those costing
over $10,000, use 1/3-inch (or smaller) format sensors with pixels that
are approximately 1/10 the size of those found in the EOS 5D Mark II.
Pixel size primarily affects the light sensitivity and noise levels,
with smaller pixels being less sensitive and producing higher noise.
Using 3 sensors to capture individual RGB color channels helps to
improve light sensitivity and reduce overall noise to some extent. But
the sensor size affects the focal length required to deliver a normal
zoom range, and because of the small sensor size, most camcorders
feature lenses with focal lengths that start around 5mm and extend to
50mm (for a 10x zoom) or 100mm (for a 20x zoom that’s roughly equivalent
to 400mm focal length on a full-frame camera such as the EOS 5D Mark II)
Depth of field at any given aperture increases as focal length
decreases, so for most focal length positions on a typical HD camcorder,
it's nearly impossible to blur background elements when shooting a
portrait or closeup. On the other hand, even an EF 50mm f/1.4 USM lens
mounted on an EOS 5D Mark II will provide narrower depth of field at all
apertures compared to the fully zoomed-in focal length on most
camcorders. And few video cameras in existence can match the narrow
depth of field of Canon’s EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM lens used by many
top-end portrait shooters. Because of these unique video recording
traits and the versatility provided by Canon’s EF lens system, the EOS
5D Mark II should be as attractive to serious videographers as it is to
advanced and professional still photographers."

We do regret if there has been any confusion on this point.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:42 AM

my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXX.

> "Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance."

It would be great if you could forward my enquiry to someone who might be able to answer it.

Let me set it out clearly:

The following claims (amongst others of a similar nature) are made for the Canon 5D mkII in the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

My question of what might this control be is met with a response that basically says reframe your shot with a different focal length or walk towards or away from your subject:

> "To control the depth of field, changing the distance between you and the
> subject, or changing the focal length being used is recommended. These
> are the only means at your own control for changing the depth of field."

> "Having to physically move the camera or adjust the focal length is simply the way the camera works"

This leads me to a simple and unambiguous question:

Q: Does Canon consider having to reframe your shot or having to walk towards or away from your subject the kind of depth-of-field control found only in professional video models ?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:42 AM

Canon's response

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXX (me)

I am going to escalate your case to our Customer Relations Department
for review and ask them to contact you. Please allow them sufficient
time to research your email history and make contact with you. One of
our Customer Relations Representatives will contact you as soon as
possible.

Even though you have several questions you would like answered,
unfortunately I am not a technician. I will speak with my Camera
Technical Support engineers and contact you back as soon as I have
information to share.

Regards,
XXXXXX
Canon USA Customer Relations

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:44 AM

Canon's reply

. . . . . . . . . . . .

1/30/09

Good Afternoon XXXXXXX (me)

Thank you for allowing me the time it took to respond to your emails
regarding the EOS 5D Mark II. I have reviewed the Overview and Video
Recording sections of the White Paper for the EOS 5D Mark II. I also
reviewed the cameras Manual, Section 6 regarding Live View Shooting and
Movies. The combination of this information is clearly in depth and
should answer your questions.

Regarding the questions raised in your emails please be advised that the
EOS 5D Mark II does include automatic features within the video mode
that need no adjustment, because the camera was developed to assist in
the video mode. While not the primary function of the camera, the video
mode is an additional function featuring 30 fps, 1080p FULL HD video
recording with sound.

There are 4 factors that contribute to depth of field: focal length,
aperture, sensor size, and subject distance. With the EOS 5D Mark II
you do not have control over sensor size and aperture. In a purpose
built video camera you have control over focal length and aperture. The
EOS 5D II is not a purpose built video camera. It is a professional
standard Digital SLR with a video mode. Your only method of controlling
depth of field is by manipulating focal length and subject distance.

Your email suggests that you have already been advised that the depth of
field in movie mode can be effectively controlled by manipulating
subject distance and focal length. To increase the depth of field in
movie mode, move away from the subject and/or reduce the focal length of
the lens. To reduce depth of field in movie mode, move closer to the
subject and/or increase the focal length of the lens. With portable
video shooting, this is exactly how you may choose to shoot.

If you are looking for a professional level video camera, we would
suggest one of the following cameras: XL H1S, XL H1A, XL H1, XH G1S, XH
A1S, XH G1, or XH A1. All of these video cameras are capable of full
aperture control, allowing greater control over the depth of field.

You say: "Your only method of controlling depth of field is by manipulating focal length and subject distance"

Q: Do you consider this to be the kind of depth of field control found in professional camcorders ?

Yours in hope (!)

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:47 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

It has just come to my attention that your last response to me was a form letter (others have received the same email, made to appear as if it were from other Canon support staff), although signed by yourself - was most probably not written by yourself and without a doubt was not specific to my question - this I know because my question was ignored.

It has become more than apparent that Canon customer/technical support have no intention to engage in this question, so can I ask where I should direct my enquiries.

All the best.

XXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:48 AM

from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear Canon Customer,

Thank you for your e-mail inquiry. Your message has been received. We
look forward to assisting you. We will respond to your request during
our normal business hours of 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m., Eastern Standard
Time.

Canon has a very comprehensive self-help KnowledgeBase which enables
most customers to find their answer easily and immediately, without
waiting for an email response. As a result, we encourage our customers
to try our KnowledgeBase at:

http://www.canontechsupport.com

This is an automated response, please do not reply.

Best regards,
Canon eCare

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:48 AM

To Canon Feb 4th (a few days later)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Ref: KMM9478569V466xxxxxxxx

Hi there,

This is just a quick email to make sure my enquiry has not got lost in your system !

All the best.

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:49 AM

To Canon Feb 5th

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Ref: KMM9478569V466xxxxxxxx

Hi there,

This is just a quick email to make sure my enquiry has not got lost in your system !

All the best.

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:50 AM

To Canon (Still no reply) Feb 7th

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Ref: KMM9478569V466xxxxxxxx

Hi there,

This is just a quick email to make sure my enquiry has not got lost in your system !

Or should I resend my enquiry ?

All the best.

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:51 AM

So . . . . .

What seems clear now is that Canon would appear to be ignoring the issue of their depth of field control claims rather than engaging in the question.

It has been over a week since my question was asked (and repeatedly chased up), so I sent an email from my girlfriends email account . . . . . obviously ignore the content, this was simply an attempt to see whether it was myself being ignored or just that the response was slow in general.

The result was that of course it is the issue of depth of field control claims that are apparently being ignored - as my girlfirned had a response the same afternoon. Like I say the content is irrelevant (although I was amused to see Canon not answering the simple question "will this (taking a picture) stop the video from recording") I include the emails here just for a complete history.

. . . . . . . . .
To Canon from my girlfriend

Hello there,

I have a question about my Canon 5D mark II camera, well it is not really about the camera it is about the video part.

When I am filming with the video part, can I take a still picture - and will this stop the video from recording.

Thank you

K.

. . . . . . . . .

Canon's response

Dear XXXXXX

Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and
appreciate the opportunity to assist you. We have the requested
information regarding your EOS 5D Mark II.

During Live View or Movie shooting you can shoot still images by
pressing the shutter button completely.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXX

Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:51 AM

A fresh attempt ! - To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi there.

I have a simple question that I would be very grateful if you could see your way to answering.

In the Canon 5D White Paper the following claims are made:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

**". . . and none that had the depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II . . ."**

I have made a few enquiries (ref: KMM9506888V24931L0KM) and have been told by more that one Canon customer support staff that the only available depth-of-field controls are - walking towards or away from your subject and changing the lens (or focal length) to force a deeper (or shallower) depth of field.

So my question is: does Canon consider this kind of control the sort found only in professional video models ?

At this stage I would be more than happy with a simple 'yes' or a 'no'.

All the best

XXXXXX (me)

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:53 AM

Still no reply for the email above from a couple of days ago.

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi,

Is there anyone there I could put a question to ?

If not, could I have the email address of somewhere within Canon willing to answer a few simple questions.

All the best.

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:53 AM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXX (me)

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the EOS 5D Mark II. We value you
as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

We would be more than happy to answer your questions regarding the EOS
5D Mark II. Please reply to this message and include any questions you
may have.

We look forward to your reply with the information we have requested
regarding the EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:54 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX, thank you for the prompt reply.

I have a simple question that I would be very grateful if you could see your way to answering. To avoid confusion my question is underlined and emboldened.

In the Canon 5D White Paper the following claims are made:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

**". . . and none that had the depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II . . ."**

I have made a few enquiries and have been told by more that one Canon customer support staff that the only available depth-of-field controls are - walking towards or away from your subject and changing the lens (or focal length) to force a deeper (or shallower) depth of field.

So my question is: does Canon consider this kind of control the sort found only in professional video models ?

At this stage I would be more than happy with a simple 'yes' or a 'no'.

All the best

XXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:54 AM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . . . .

2/10/09

Good Afternoon XXXXX(me),

Thank you for the follow-up email reply.

The answer cannot be made by a simple yes or no. The fact of the matter
is that the EOS 5D MkII is not a professional camera. It is a high end
consumer digital still camera which is also capable of shooting
professional quality video but as to the question of professional
control that is up to the user. It is not up to us. As far as the camera
offering the type of very narrow depth-of-field which is usually only
found on very high end professional video cameras that can be answered
with a simple YES.

Regards,
XXXXXX

Canon USA Customer Relations

. . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:55 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXX

Thanks for the reply.

So, it would appear that Canon are claiming in promotional literature that the 5DmkII has a professional depth-of-field control - when asked what this control might be we are told it is - walking towards or away from your subject and changing the lens (or focal length).

And then when you are asked the corollary question - do you consider walking towards or away from your subject and changing the lens (or focal length) to be professional depth-of-field control, your answer is the rather odd "The answer cannot be made by a simple yes or no."

You also say:

"As far as the camera offering the type of very narrow depth-of-field which is usually only found on very high end professional video cameras that can be answered with a simple YES."

That may very well be the case, I am sure you are quite right, but it has nothing to do with my question which is clearly about *control* over the depth-of-field.

I include a link here to the general response to this farcical avoidance of my question, the woeful customer service and obfuscation from Canon, it is from one of the more popular Canon 5D forums and the many messages I have received are in general appalled at Canon's naked equivocation of the issue.

http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=553&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Once again and to be clear about the actual question I am asking - my question is in bold and underlined and in red:

Q: can you confirm that the following two statements are correct:

1) The Canon 5D mkII White Paper makes the claim that the 5D mkII has 'depth-of-field control found only in professional video models'.

2) When asked to clarify what this depth-of-field control is - Canon say that walking towards or away from your subject and/or changing the lens (or focal length) is the only way to control the depth-of-field on the 5DmkII.

Looking forward to your reply.

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:56 AM

Hmmmm . . . .

I received an email today:

"How Was Your Canon USA Email Technical Support Experience?"
(it invited you to complete a survey on the quality of Email Technical Support)

I take it this means my enquiry has been closed. :( (?)

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXX

I received an email today titled:

"How Was Your Canon USA Email Technical Support Experience?"

Can I take this as an indicator that my enquiry has been closed ?

Thanks

XXXXXX(me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:56 AM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . . .

Good Morning Mr XXXXXX(me)

While I appreciate the email reply, we do not have any other answers for
you regarding the EOS 5D Mark II.

Regards,
XXXXXX
Canon USA Customer Relations

. . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-11-2009, 10:57 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

I have reduced my enquiry to a confirmation of two statements put forward by Canon, I am simply asking whether these are true or not.

If you cannot answer the question can I ask you to give me the email address of someone I could write to who may be able to help me.

**I ask you please not to simply forward my email back to technical support as we have already established that they are unwilling to answer the question, but actually forward me the email address of someone you are certain would be able to answer this less than profound question.**

For clarity my question is directly below this sentence - in bold, rendered in red and underlined.

Q: can you confirm that the following two statements are correct:

1) The Canon 5D mkII White Paper makes the claim that the 5D mkII has 'depth-of-field control found only in professional video models'.

2) When asked to clarify what this depth-of-field control is - Canon say that walking towards or away from your subject and/or changing the lens (or focal length) is the only way to control the depth-of-field on the 5DmkII.

Thanks

XXX

OSV

02-12-2009, 09:56 AM

what is the point of this thread?

did you not research the camera before you bought it?

phoric

02-12-2009, 10:53 AM

what is the point of this thread?

did you not research the camera before you bought it?

To hold Canon accountable for their marketing techniques.

And anything that adds pressure for them to add features in a firmware update is appreciated. Whether or not they ever do so, at least they will have to know that manual control is really what we would like to have. It's worth a shot...

egproductions

02-12-2009, 11:53 AM

Nice job Lee. If everyone that wanted manual control on their 5D IIs confronted canon half as much as you did, I think Canon would fold and come out with a firmware.

Lee Wilson

02-12-2009, 01:12 PM

what is the point of this thread?

did you not research the camera before you bought it?

What is the point of your post ?

Did you not read the thread before you posted it?

:)

Let me explain, yes I did research, I read the Canon 5DmkII White Paper, it made claims that the Canon 5DmkII has professional depth of field control - I bought the camera and found it did not.

Got it ? :)

Lee Wilson

02-12-2009, 01:21 PM

Nice job Lee. If everyone that wanted manual control on their 5D IIs confronted canon half as much as you did, I think Canon would fold and come out with a firmware.

Cheers, you are probably right.

riley

02-12-2009, 05:35 PM

i agree with the above.
thanks a lot for taking this on, Lee

bjdowns

02-15-2009, 09:07 PM

Cheers, Lee. You are taking drastic steps toward confronting Canon with their own claims. I am surprised at how elusive Canon is, but I am ever thankful for your continuing perseverance. Keep us updated!

Lee Wilson

02-16-2009, 04:35 AM

Cheers, Lee. You are taking drastic steps toward confronting Canon with their own claims. I am surprised at how elusive Canon is, but I am ever thankful for your continuing perseverance. Keep us updated!

Thanks for the encouragement bjdowns :)

I wouldn't say my actions are drastic, I am using the recommended route (customer support) to put forward a few very unambiguous questions.

Not response from my last email. :crybaby:

Lee Wilson

02-16-2009, 07:14 AM

The previous email has been ignored, so I sent the very same request today.

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXX

I have reduced my enquiry to a confirmation of two statements put forward by Canon, I am simply asking whether these are true or not.

If you cannot answer the question can I ask you to give me the email address of someone I could write to who may be able to help me.

**I ask you please not to simply forward my email back to technical support as we have already established that they are unwilling to answer the question, but actually forward me the email address of someone you are certain would be able to answer this less than profound question.**

For clarity my question is directly below this sentence - in bold, rendered in red and underlined.

Q: can you confirm that the following two statements are correct:

1) The Canon 5D mkII White Paper makes the claim that the 5D mkII has 'depth-of-field control found only in professional video models'.

2) When asked to clarify what this depth-of-field control is - Canon say that walking towards or away from your subject and/or changing the lens (or focal length) is the only way to control the depth-of-field on the 5DmkII.

Thanks

XXX

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Matthew Bennett

02-16-2009, 07:28 AM

People in wheelchairs or bedridden certainly have a class action on their hands here...

Lee Wilson

02-17-2009, 10:45 AM

Same old routine . . . . . . no reply from Canon, so sent this email again today. :crybaby:

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXX

I have reduced my enquiry to a confirmation of two statements put forward by Canon, I am simply asking whether these are true or not.

If you cannot answer the question can I ask you to give me the email address of someone I could write to who may be able to help me.

**I ask you please not to simply forward my email back to technical support as we have already established that they are unwilling to answer the question, but actually forward me the email address of someone you are certain would be able to answer this less than profound question.**

For clarity my question is directly below this sentence - in bold, rendered in red and underlined.

Q: can you confirm that the following two statements are correct:

1) The Canon 5D mkII White Paper makes the claim that the 5D mkII has 'depth-of-field control found only in professional video models'.

2) When asked to clarify what this depth-of-field control is - Canon say that walking towards or away from your subject and/or changing the lens (or focal length) is the only way to control the depth-of-field on the 5DmkII.

Thanks

XXXX (me)

Chris Light

02-17-2009, 08:46 PM

at this point, it hardly matters if they answer the question. you already know the answer, and so do they. the closer you get within their customer service, the clearer it becomes that they are full of it on this one...how's that for a DOF pun? no need to call Erin Brokovich.

...i love my XH-A1.

Chris

Lee Wilson

02-18-2009, 01:33 AM

at this point, it hardly matters if they answer the question. you already know the answer, and so do they. the closer you get within their customer service, the clearer it becomes that they are full of it on this one...how's that for a DOF pun? no need to call Erin Brokovich.

...i love my XH-A1.

Chris

What can I say, I like writing letters. :zombie_smiley:

Hunter Hampton

02-18-2009, 09:33 PM

I think you need to organize a demonstration outside of Canon USA and Canon Japan- Im thinking get a bunch of fat hairy dudes naked and burn some canon 5d m2 bodies... whatever it takes, Just don't leave until you get that firmware update!

OR

Pay off a Canon programmer to make a firmware to allow anything you want on the camera, I bet there are a lot of upset programmers who have been laid off recently and most likely are looking for work.

Lee Wilson

02-19-2009, 09:22 AM

No reply to the previous emails, so now I am simply asking if I can ask a question or not :crybaby::crybaby:

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi,

Is there anyone there willing to answer a couple of questions ?

If not, could I have the email address of somewhere within Canon willing to answer a few simple questions.

All the best.

XXXXX(me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hunter Hampton

02-19-2009, 09:54 AM

blacklisted

Lee Wilson

02-19-2009, 12:32 PM

blacklisted

Quite possibly.

If this is the case - then this is pretty appalling manoeuvring by Canon. The least they should be able to do is to defend their own claims.

:crybaby:

Lee Wilson

02-19-2009, 01:21 PM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXX(me)

Thank you for contacting Canon product support. We will be happy to
assist you with any questions that you have if you will reply to this
email.

We look forward to your reply.

Sincerely,

XXXXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-19-2009, 01:23 PM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXX

Thanks for your prompt reply.

Q: can you confirm that the following two statements are correct:

1) The Canon 5D mkII White Paper makes the claim that the 5D mkII has 'depth-of-field control found only in professional video models'.

2) When asked to clarify what this depth-of-field control is - Canon say that walking towards or away from your subject and/or changing the lens (or focal length) is the only way to control the depth-of-field on the 5DmkII.

All the best

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

princigalli

02-20-2009, 02:21 AM

Excellent job. I will do the same with Canon now, and I hope many others will do the same.

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 03:20 AM

Excellent job. I will do the same with Canon now, and I hope many others will do the same.

Cheers for the support princigalli !

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 06:39 AM

from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Good Morning Mr. XXXXX (me)

While we appreciate the email inquiries, in my last response I advised
that Canon does not have any other answers regarding the EOS 5D Mark II.
I have referred with our Camera Technical Support Engineers and our
Canon Manager and the information provided before is the only response
we have. There is no one else that can provide any further information
that has not already been given.

On 2/10/09 the provided the following information;
The answer cannot be made by a simple yes or no. The fact of the matter
is that the EOS 5D MkII is not a professional camera. It is a high end
consumer digital still camera which is also capable of shooting
professional quality video but as to the question of professional
control that is up to the user. It is not up to us. As far as the camera
offering the type of very narrow depth-of-field which is usually only
found on very high end professional video cameras that can be answered
with a simple YES.

Regards,
XXXXXXX
Canon USA Customer Relations

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 06:44 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXX,

In an attempt to make this conversation move forward I will reduce my question even further:

Q: can you confirm that the following statement is correct:

1) The Canon 5D mkII White Paper makes the claim that the 5D mkII has 'depth-of-field control found only in professional video models'.

I would be more than happy with a simple 'yes' or 'no' at this stage.

All the best,

XXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 07:01 AM

from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hello Mr. XXXXXX (me)

Unfortunately, I have no other comment or answer for you in this matter.

Regards,
XXXXXX

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 07:03 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

I am asking the most basic of questions? If you cannot address my enquiry, can you point me to someone who can.

All the best

XXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 09:09 AM

from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Mr. XXXXXX (me)

Unfortunately, there is no other information we have to share with you.
This is the Customer Relations department. There is no other point of
contact to forward you to. I was provided information from Canon's
Camera Manager and or Camera Technical Engineers. They have advised
there is nothing else they can provide to you on this subject.

I apologize if this is not satisfactory but there is nothing else.

Regards,
XXXXX

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 09:15 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXX

Am I to believe that there is no one in the Canon organisation, anywhere, who can confirm whether a statement made in your own promotional literature is correct ?

Can I ask you why you cannot answer the question ?

All the best

XXX(me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-20-2009, 09:29 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXX

As I seem to be presenting questions beyond Canon's abilities - I will further compromise my enquiry in an attempt to approach the subject from a different angle and make the process somewhat easier for you.

Q: Can you confirm that the Canon 5D mkII White Paper exists ?

Again, I am asking for nothing more than a 'yes' or 'no'.

Yours in hope.

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

thefilmgeek

02-21-2009, 07:35 AM

from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hello Mr. XXXXXX (me)

Unfortunately, I have no other comment or answer for you in this matter.

Regards,
XXXXXX

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

You kind of open yourself up for disappointment when you purchase a still camera thinking it's gonna be a great video camera (in ANY respect), regardless of what advertisements say.

Lee Wilson

02-21-2009, 11:14 AM

You kind of open yourself up for disappointment when you purchase a still camera thinking it's gonna be a great video camera (in ANY respect), regardless of what advertisements say.

Not at all, I have stated nowhere I am expecting a still camera to be a great video camera, but thanks for sharing your insight on the matter anyway. :zombie_smiley:

Andrew Brinkhaus

02-21-2009, 09:49 PM

This is great stuff, Lee. Keep it up. :)

Wish we had some people as motivated as you in the Nikon camp...

f64manray

02-22-2009, 12:11 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXX

Am I to believe that there is no one in the Canon organisation, anywhere, who can confirm whether a statement made in your own promotional literature is correct ?

Can I ask you why you cannot answer the question ?

All the best

XXX(me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Oh man, Canon is so not selling you another camera. ;-)

Response from Canon:

Dear XXXX (you)

The professional DOF you seek will be available on the 1DIV. We look forward to your continued support.

Love, Canon

All in all I'm grateful to Canon for giving me the awsome image quality the 5DII provides both still and video wise. I'll forgive their over enthusiasm in their lit. The camera is fantastic. It may not give you the control how you want it, but if you just give up your will to the camera, it will reward you. See Laforet video and many others. I know, I know ....your ego won't just let you point and shoot. ;-)

Lee Wilson

02-22-2009, 05:35 AM

It may not give you the control how you want it . . .

It is not about 'how I want it' - I have not complained anywhere that the control does not live up to my standards - only that it does not live up to their own claims.

I know ....your ego won't just let you point and shoot. ;-)

Silly and misplaced ad hominem gratefully received. :)

Matthew Bennett

02-22-2009, 07:39 AM

Nice 1D mark3 is looking like a champ now...

Emanuel

02-22-2009, 10:19 AM

Excellent job. I will do the same with Canon now, and I hope many others will do the same.Yes, hope others do too. It had to be you, Lee! :laugh: Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

Until now, there were no affordable 1080p HD video camcorders able to capture ultrawide or fisheye perspectives without the addition of distortion-producing adapter lenses, and none that had the depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II.

From reading Canon's response, it's basically video is just an add on and if doesnt suit you, buy a video camera. Doesn't quite jive with their marketing but then again, it wont be the first time a company hypes features that are non-existent. You would think it would bother them that people are using a competitors lenses to get better controls of the image. I hope Nikon is listening. They don't have a pro video line to protect.

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 02:44 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXXX

I have a very simple question, I ask this as a customer who has, alone, spent several thousand dollars with Canon over the last few years - if you cannot answer my questions, can you advise me as to the best place to direct them.

Q: Can you confirm that the Canon 5D mkII White Paper exists ?

I am asking for nothing more than a 'yes' or 'no' at this stage.

Yours in hope.

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 06:22 AM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . .

Good Morning Mr. XXXXXX (me)

Yes.

Regards,
XXXXXX

.. . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 06:35 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXX

Thank you for the straightforward answer, very much appreciated !

Now that we have established the existence of the Canon 5D mkII White Paper, can I ask you to confirm whether (or not) the following claim appears on page 6 of that document:

With it activated, photographers and videographers
can capture high definition video
with depth-of-field control found only in
professional video modelsóusing much more
affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye,
ultra-wide, and image stabilized lenses.

All the best

XXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 07:48 AM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Mr. XXXXXXXX (me),

Unfortunately, there is no other information I have to share with you.

If you ever have any technical issue that you are unable to resolve, I
would be more than happy to assist. Otherwise, I Thank You for the
comments, they are been shared.

Have a Good Day.

Regards,
XXXXXXXX
Canon USA Customer Relations

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 07:49 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXX

Could I please ask if there is anyone, anywhere within the Canon organisation who would be able to answer this question ?

All the best.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 07:59 AM

From Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Mr. XXXXXXX (me),

There is noone else that will answer any other questions here at Canon.
The Camera Manager and Technical Support Engineers have already
responded. I have been advised that there are no other questions that
will be answered for you regarding this issue that have not already been
addressed.

Regards,
XXXXXXX

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 08:21 AM

To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXX,

Can I ask whether this refusal to address my quite reasonable enquiry is particularly aimed at myself - or more broadly applies to any questioning from any customer on the claims made in your promotional literature ?

By this I mean, would it be possible to have someone represent me in perusing this, or would any appointed representative also meet with the same ban on questioning the claims made by Canon ?

All the best

XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

BMFM FILMS

02-23-2009, 08:46 AM

This is hysterical and they deserve it too, they have ignored all the requests, they deserve a shitstorm of major proportions.

f64manray

02-23-2009, 10:15 AM

Just playing advocate for Canon for a moment. I take it the sticking point is the word "control". If it had read:

With it activated, photographers and videographers
can capture high definition video
with depth-of-field found only in
professional video models—using much more
affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye,
ultra-wide, and image stabilized lenses.

You would have been okay? Keeping in mind that even with full control of the aperture, shallow depth of field can not be controlled for on all video cameras without the purchase of an expensive 35mm adapter which brings it's own set of compromises.

Maybe they should have used the phrase "achieving a shallow depth of field that's only possible with cameras costing many thousands of dollars more"

I mean 35mm adapters are now dead because of this camera. Shouldn't that be celebrated rather than busting their balls over the use of the word "control". This kind of control won't even be available with the new Scarlet if it's ever released.

They broke down a major barrier here with not only incredible image quality but with giving us easily achievable shallow depth of field with great bokeh.

I don't know. It feels like someone gave me a $50.00 steak dinner for $5.00 and then busting their balls because they didn't season it just so.

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 10:58 AM

Just playing advocate for Canon for a moment. I take it the sticking point is the word "control".

Canon repeatedly make the claim that the 5D mkII has 'amazing' and 'professional' depth-of-field control in it's promotional literature, on buying the product you find that the control is not simply less than what is claimed but that it is non-existent.

I don't think it valid to traduce the argument to the misuse of the word 'control'

The suggestions made throughout the litrature is that not only will you have control over DOF, but that control is the kind "found only in professional video models".

They broke down a major barrier here with not only incredible image quality but with giving us easily achievable shallow depth of field with great bokeh.

This is the whole point of my challenge to them, the disabling of any aperture control means a shallow depth of field is not easily achievable.

I don't know. It feels like someone gave me a $50.00 steak dinner for $5.00 and then busting their balls because they didn't season it just so.

Busting their balls ? I am attempting to get them to engage in a conversation, one which they unashamedly and comically keep avoiding.

When your hypothetical steak dinner arrives and it turns out it has not been cooked and is still frozen - might you ask 'has it even been cooked' ?

And when the reply comes that "all our food is of the highest quality" - you might feel compelled to ask again - "yes, but has this been cooked".

And then when your questions are met with "we have answered your questions already" - and you reply with "Can you simply then tell me whether you even own a grill ?" in the hope to creep logically towards an honest discussion . . .

. . . . . at what stage exactly did you cross the line from reasonable customer to ball buster ?:zombie_smiley::)

Isaac_Brody

02-23-2009, 11:18 AM

I admire your tenacity. And I figure someone somewhere must have the job of reading your emails so keep it rolling...

Erik Olson

02-23-2009, 11:45 AM

This is what happens when marketing people ignore the engineers telling them what the product can really do. If they asked at all. But, it really began with a company-side market research analyst asking the engineers to design a hybridized product to compete with another existing, but disparate, market segment. One that must be bulging with money from literally millions of as-yet-unrealized customers.

With this challenging mandate, said engineers went to work... designing the product with virtually no input from professionals in the field using what the company believes to be "competing existing product(s)".

e

f64manray

02-23-2009, 12:09 PM

This is the whole point of my challenge to them, the disabling of any aperture control means a shallow depth of field is not easily achievable.

I won't quibble over the word "easily" as it seems much easier to move further or closer to adjust depth of field than to buy a seperate piece of expensive equipment (35mm adapter) to accomplish the same thing on any other camera even costing thousands more. Whether easy to achieve or difficult, it is achievable. It is not achievable at all on other cameras. Though not as good as aperture priority in video mode, setting the aperture, pressing the depth of field button and then unlocking the lens to set aperture seems pretty easy compared to the alternative of buying a 35mm adapter or purchasing Red One. In short "control" is possible with the 5DII, but I see your point in making Canon admit their claims were misleading.

As a reader of their comments, I understood what they were inferring, but I understand how others could have taken it to mean that aperture priority was available in video mode.

For myself, I feel the camera will select the aperture that will produce the bokeh that I want especially given the lower light that I will be shooting in. Very small price to pay considering others seem to be intercutting 5DII footage with Red One with no difference in quality and in some cases choosing the 5DII over Red simply because it's a better performer in low light.

Busting their balls ? I am attempting to get them to engage in a conversation, one which they unashamedly and comically keep avoiding.

When your hypothetical steak dinner arrives and it turns out it has not been cooked and is still frozen - might you ask 'has it even been cooked' ?

And when the reply comes that "all our food is of the highest quality" - you might feel compelled to ask again - "yes, but has this been cooked".

And then when your questions are met with "we have answered your questions already" - and you reply with "Can you simply then tell me whether you even own a grill ?" in the hope to creep logically towards an honest discussion . . .

. . . . . at what stage exactly did you cross the line from reasonable customer to ball buster ?:zombie_smiley::)

Well, I don't know if it's appropriate to say the 5DII is completely uncooked. It seems pretty well cooked to me. I think it's more appropriate to say that their ads showed salt shakers on their table, but no salt shakers were there upon arrival in the restaurant.

customer: I would like to salt my own meat please.

waiter: I'm sorry, the chef will salt your meat for you.

customer: But I want to control the salt shaker.

waiter: We're selling a 16 ounce cut of Kobie beef for 5 dollars, if you dont like it how we give it to you, your free to go spend 85 dollars on the same product across the street. They have salt shakers on the table, now get the F#%$@ out of our restaurant. ....Sorry the pictures in the ad had salt shakers in on the table.

I think that may be a more appropriate analogy. ;-)

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 01:11 PM

It seems pretty well cooked to me. I think it's more appropriate to say that their ads showed salt shakers on their table, but no salt shakers were there upon arrival in the restaurant.

No, not at all ! :)

A lovely analogy buy hardly fitting, DOF control is used to sell the camera, a feature was made of it, it was described as amazing and ascribed professional status - said to draw in professional videographers and so on . .

Not mere condiment by any measure.

If you were making your point in reference to a missing lens hood I think we could do something with the salt analogy.

If you are eating at restaurants that make a feature of the fact that they have salt, you might need to consider asking your boss for a raise ;-)

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 01:22 PM

I won't quibble over the word "easily" as it seems much easier to move further or closer to adjust depth of field than to buy a seperate piece of expensive equipment. . . . .

I am sure you could easily list numerous common situations where moving towards or away from your subject is either difficult or impossible.

Looking from a window in a tall building, or on a mountain pathway, or looking over a bridge, or in a confined space, or the back of a taxi, or when around subjects that would be disturbed by your movement (a rare bird landing 5 meters from you) - or looking through the glass into the snake enclosure at the zoo - or filming from up a tree at a rock festival or stood on a wall, or where getting nearer is dangerous like filming a burning building or a protest getting out of hand or filming from a cable car or in a helicopter. . . . . . .

And so on . . . .

I am sure if you or I put in the effort we could come up with a tediously long list of situations where moving significantly (enough to control DOF) towards or away from your subject would simply be problematic if not unworkable - and at no stage, as you attempt to reposition yourself (and compromise your framing) - would you consider this the type of control found in professional camcorders.

Oynk

02-23-2009, 01:26 PM

There was a class action lawsuit against Verizon (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/notag/verizon-v710-class-action-suit-expands-nationwide-34470.php) that is a better analogy.

One of their first Bluetooth phones (the Motorola v710) was completely crippled for everything beyond the headset. At the time, if you took a picture with your phone that you wanted on your computer, Verizon charged to 25Ę to mail it to yourself. They had misleading marketing materials about the depth of the Bluetooth functionality. In the end, they had to pay for it.

I think that Lee's focus on the marketing materials is effective in that way.

I still like the idea of the camera and will be considering it for purchase. But for people who are unhappy and feel mislead, there are certainly precedents for holding companies responsible for truth in marketing.

Lee Wilson

02-23-2009, 03:42 PM

There was a class action lawsuit against Verizon (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/notag/verizon-v710-class-action-suit-expands-nationwide-34470.php) that is a better analogy.

Thanks for the link Oynk.

f64manray

02-23-2009, 07:17 PM

I - would you consider this the type of control found in professional camcorders.

I think this just boils down to the fact that I'm just a more forgiving christ like person than you are. :-) ...;-)

x_WOrPIG_x

02-24-2009, 01:05 AM

You're a tank Lee. God bless.

Oynk

02-24-2009, 02:40 AM

I think that the people on these boards are a small but vocal minority. Canon has a long term strategy in this area that may not please many prospective filmmakers.

I may buy the 5D but, if I were a betting man, I would put my money on Nikon making a big play here. They have nothing to lose by putting out a great product.

There will be enough people like Lee to do some damage to the 5D brand.

Either way, I am excited to have such great gear. I would prefer that it was from Canon so I could keep my lens investment, but we'll see how it goes.

I wrote about it here.. (http://www.oynk.com/2009/02/24/so-much-to-lose/)

Lee Wilson

02-24-2009, 04:18 AM

I think this just boils down to the fact that I'm just a more forgiving christ like person than you are. :-) ...;-)

I don't doubt that for one minute.

taubkin

02-25-2009, 09:05 AM

You can put those bastards up in court! How dare them to ignore your messages after they clearly stated at least a dozen times that they "appreciate your continued correspondence" ?!

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/144712-canons-5d-mark-ii-white-paper-revised.htmlI saw that yesterday. When I saw it I thought of this thread. It seems like Canon is paying attention.

Hopefully they do something quick because the idea of Canon users buying Nikon lens to get some control over video mode is enough to make Canon make the changes we want.

egproductions

03-01-2009, 12:40 PM

Canon doesn't want to shoot thier video camera line in the foot so most likley they will implement large snesors in their future video cameras. The only problem with this is that it's much more expensive to produce lenses for large sensors than smaller "video sensors". Putting an EF mount on these cameras doesn't really solve this problem because a lot of videographers are just looking for one fast lens that covers a large focal distance and not having to swap out fast primes.

ESTEBEVERDE

03-15-2009, 03:39 PM

I hope to G-d Nikon can get off their Collective ASSES! and come up with something that far surpasses the 5D MK II and can take full advantage of the Superior Nikon Glass!

The more I think about it the happier and happier I am that Canon is treating us like shyte and tooling us around! :)

Eric Papa

03-15-2009, 07:19 PM

"With it activated, photographers and videographers
can capture high definition video
with depth-of-field control found only in
professional video models—using much more
affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye,
ultra-wide, and image stabilized lenses."

Where does it say "you can control the iris manually"... It doesn't..

The fact that you interoperated like so is not canon's fault. They offer you the tools to achieve DOF found only in high end HD cameras, like a 300mm 2.8L, or how about a 600mm...Do you think the camera is going to close up the iris so much on a lens like that that there will be no shallow DOF?? Doubt it.

I'm all for manual controls, but legalities are legalities. It doesn't say: you can control the iris manually lol

Lee Wilson

03-16-2009, 04:13 AM

Where does it say "you can control the iris manually"... It doesn't..

No one has claimed that the literature states you can control the iris manually.

They offer you the tools to achieve DOF found only in high end HD cameras . .

Wonderful technique, your skills in equivocation are bordering on the Canonical™. :)

Your trick of swapping 'control' with 'achieve' strikes me as the work of a man who has either not read the whole thread, or done so and not understood the central argument - I don't entirely blame you as it's a long, repetitive and frustrating read !

. . . like a 300mm 2.8L, or how about a 600mm... Do you think the camera is going to close up the iris so much on a lens like that that there will be no shallow DOF?? Doubt it.

Wheather the camera closes up the iris or not is irrelevant, the issue is that you cannot control that DOF.

Of course you have chosen a couple of lenses that will inherently have a shallow depth of field (and still with no control over the DOF), the same problem exists with wide and mid primes and zooms, 24mm f1.4 / 50mm f1.4 / 85mm f1.4 / 85mm f1.2 etc etc - do I think the camera is going to close up the iris so much on a lenses like these that there will be no shallow DOF ? - yes ! Not only do I think it, I know it ! Try and use the lovely Canon 85mm f1.2 in daylight and watch the 5D choose it's smallest aperture - f16 - every time.

I'm all for manual controls, but legalities are legalities. It doesn't say: you can control the iris manually lol

Like I say, no one has claimed that Canon state you can control the iris manually in their literature.

So this leads to the obvious question, how you would control the depth of field ?

Eric Papa

03-16-2009, 10:38 AM

I just tested out the 85mm and yes I DO see what you mean. There is still some shallow DOF even at f16 but yea I wonder what their thinking was with that move?

Lee Wilson

03-16-2009, 12:59 PM

I just tested out the 85mm and yes I DO see what you mean. There is still some shallow DOF even at f16 but yea I wonder what their thinking was with that move?

Who knows !? I tend to go with the theory that says the video functionality was limited (severely limited) to stop it impacting on Canon camcorder sales.

So . . . . you buy the very very nice 85mm/f1.2, but can't get anything other than what the camera (in video mode) chooses - and in daylight that is rarely going to be anything other than plain old f16. :(

Of course there are workarounds, pointing the camera into dark corners and locking the exposure on every single shoot (hoping the shutter speed stays the same), stacking ND filters, the trick of loosening the lens or taping over the contacts and so on.

A question for you, how would you normally control the depth of field ('normally' here meaning on a camera that has not had all it's control disabled). ?

Douglas Villalba

03-16-2009, 03:09 PM

or simply use Nikon lenses on it

Eric Papa

03-16-2009, 03:47 PM

Who knows !? I tend to go with the theory that says the video functionality was limited (severely limited) to stop it impacting on Canon camcorder sales.

A question for you, how would you normally control the depth of field ('normally' here meaning on a camera that has not had all it's control disabled). ?

When I do photography I'll use high f stops like that sometimes. I don't always need shallow DOF, and the lens produces great results closed up somewhat.

You just rotate the thumb dial and control the fstop in photography mode.

How are you locking the exposure?

Lee Wilson

03-16-2009, 04:58 PM

or simply use Nikon lenses on it

That is exactly what I do at the moment, but it would be nice not to have to adapt the lenses (often throwing infinity focus out) - as well as losing autofocus and losing image stabilization.

Lee Wilson

03-16-2009, 04:59 PM

When I do photography I'll use high f stops like that sometimes.

So you would control DOF by using the aperture ?

Eric Papa

03-17-2009, 10:59 AM

So you would control DOF by using the aperture ?

haha yea of course - is this a trick question?

However if I'm stuck at f16 I guess I have to move the camera closer and the background further lol.

Im not stressing though, I have a music video on Friday and a commercial on Sunday. I plan on using this cam for both - so its paid for. I think it will still make great images despite all the restrictions..