Originally posted by StaggerLeeFor all of you who are decrying the Bush victory, remember, you are in the minority. You and those who think like you, are outnumbered in this nation. The majority of the country agrees with the President, or, at the very least, disagreed with the one who was chosen to run against this President.

If you are complaining about the percieved lack of respect for same sex marriage, remember, every state in the union who had it up for a vote, voted to not allow it.

The Senate, and the House are now Republican held. That means that your opinions and political philosophies are in the minority.

For all of you who keep complaining that "there are people who dont agree with your policies" remember, MORE people do agree. Majority rules. Please remember that.

This President had more ballots cast with his name than any President in the history of this nation. Because it wasnt a LANDSLIDE, doesnt mean you should discount that fact.

Bush has a ways to go to make us more respected on the World stage, but, the public has spoken and they think that he is the better man to do the job than his opponent was.

So because Bush is currently still serving out his first term in which Al Gore won the majority of the vote, your opinion is still worthless until January, right? God, I wish I knew that sooner.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the Gay Marriage thing was a Republican issue, not a Democratic one. We would've prefered that all those who voted to "Save marriage" had just stayed home, thank you. Cause I'm sure they all voted for Bush as long as they were there.

But now I'm pretty sure that Gay Marriage is going to be the next issue most liberals latch onto. With 11 states saying, "We don't like you" most of the gays I know are saying they feel like second-class citizens right now. Not many liberals were truly active for the marriage amendment because it looked like it was going to fail, and we had bigger fish to fry. Now that we're stuck with Bush, our attention is most likely going to shift.

So do I think this gap can be healed? No, not really. A lot of liberals feel their best when they're fighting the power like in the heyday of the 60's. They'll jump on any chance to fight for what they believe is right, and gay marriage is the next fight. I don't believe you can get much more divisive than that right now.

Originally posted by redsoxnation As a Republican, I'm begging the Democrats to trot out Dean or even Hillary in '08. At some point, the Party needs to realize that a Northeastern Democrat is screwed in terms of the electoral map.

I would've been happier with a Dean loss than Kerry's for the simple fact it would have meant the end of the Clinton era of the Democratic Party - and with folks like Obama coming up that's a good thing.

I'll take a different stance on some of this - I think the bitter divide being seen is mostly a religious one. Every single state-wide gay marriage ban that being voted on yesterday PASSED. Every single one. And I think that's one of the things that mobilized the far right in those states.

As a gay friend of mine said, this was not the time for the gay community to tackle this issue.

That's not to say some if not most of the blame for this loss isn't on Kerry and the Democrats. He spent the first half of his campaign silent, and the second half being less than impressive.

I'll truely believe it was the Clinton era that really hurt the focus of the Democrats. They had no idea where to go after his terms, and Gore was not the answer.

Originally posted by StaggerLeeFor all of you who keep complaining that "there are people who dont agree with your policies" remember, MORE people do agree. Majority rules. Please remember that.

I imagine there are parts of the country where the majority would support concentration camps for a particular minority group, but that doesn't make it right.

I'm not going to try to disagree with you and say majority DOESN'T rule because obviously it does. I just thought I'd point out that sometimes (quite often, actually) the people should not be allowed to vote on an issue because it is a question of law or a fundamental civil right and should be decided by our highly-esteemed, well-educated government (no, really, I mean it).

It was an enjoyable election. Fox News had the best panel with the McLaughlin gang. CNN had the worst panel with Larry King. Rather was making it up to Bush by giving him the most electoral numbers. I went to bed at 1:30ET after they gave Bush Ohio and Alaska to get to 269. No decision till the next day seems like a real close election to me. The news was that only New Hampshire flipped from 2000.

New Jersey was solid blue and will be for a while. Those Quinipiac polls showing it close were way off. If Bush could've won NJ, he would've carried all the other states in a landslide. I'm surprised PA was as close as it was. The Penn voters are the just the Jersey voters who can't afford to live in Jersey.

MTVs "Vote of Die" campain didn't work either. I took the slogan to mean that if you didn't vote for Kerry, Bush would reinstate the draft and send you to die in Iraq. My wife took it to mean if you didn't vote P Diddy would send gang bangers to your home. My wife would've voted for Kerry and I would've voted for Bush, so we made a deal to both stay home and achieve the same result. It's more fun to watch than to participate.

Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastardSo because Bush is currently still serving out his first term in which Al Gore won the majority of the vote, your opinion is still worthless until January, right? God, I wish I knew that sooner.

Not to nitpick OFB, but Gore won a plurality of the vote not a majority... :-)

OFB, If you are still bitter about 2000 its okay. Gore won the popular vote, lost the electoral college. I agree with that. I also feel that the correct person is holding office, given our election process. What I was pointing out with the MAJORITY RULES part was this. People who have agendas, be it legalized marajuano, gay marriage, no war in Iraq, etc, while they feel passionately about thier position, they are still not holding the opinion of the majority of the nation.

Somebody brought up if a majority of people thought certain groups should be in concentration camps does that make it the "right" thing to do. I put it this way, if a minority of people feel its okay for adults to have sex with children, should we allow it just because SOME people think its okay?

Originally posted by FurryHippieThe only way to silence people like Grimis is to show them, not tell them.

That's all I heard for the past two years was that Bush was finished....

Oops.

It's amazing that Bush wins the popular vote in a clear mandate, we pick up ten seats in the House, pick up several Senate seats, and still the liberals here try to deligitmize the win.

As StaggerLee said, for those Bush haters:

YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED. WE ARE IN CONTROL

Thank you....

Remember: Clinton NEVER got a majority....

Incidentally, you guys might want to try to avoid things like gay marriage in the future, because as you saw in the various referenda, gay marriage bans won big. I'm not saying that's a good thing, and I think regular readers of this forum know where I stand. But you just can't run every liberal issue up the flagpole for every interest group and expect to win because you are in the minority (GOD that's fun to say).

I hope you and StaggerLee and the rest of the majority will be the first to sign up for WWIII before they start a draft (I sure as hell shouldn't be over there, since I am a "wussy in the minority"). The way I look at it is that if you support him and his ideas, then you should be more than happy to go over to Iraq and defend Bush's ideologies and agendas.

Let me know how that turns out for ya dude! I will be more than happy to send you CARE packages to "the sandbox" as my friend calls it who is over there right now defending Bush's daddy's right to live.

Furthermore, I hope neither one of you have sisters who get knocked up by some local loser and then are stuck helping to support their child that they end up resenting for the rest of their lives. Even better, I hope neither one of you end up having a one-niter with some gal and knock her up then are stuck basically marrying some girl you can't stand for hte rest of your life.

The people who I really feel for here are the alternative lifestyle society. All they wanna do is get married and be left alone. And *GASP* most of them are just regular people who just want their own place and to be left alone with their own people. I wish everyone had the opportunity to hang out with a gay couple for one day, they would realize they are just normal couples who love each other. The laughable thing is that my brother, who is gay, and most of his friends tell me that they laugh about how straight men think they are all after them. They laugh b/c they feel most (read 99%)of straight men are lazy, ugly, crass, out-of-shape assholes. I

It's sad that we let a bunch of rednecks/morons vote on someone's civil liberties. It would be like letting me vote on the right for some of these people having the right to have children out of wedlock who they cannot support (which I am vehemently opposed to). I mean the Bible does say that basically "if you don't work, then you don't eat".

Originally posted by Stagger LeeThis President had more ballots cast with his name than any President in the history of this nation. Because it wasnt a LANDSLIDE, doesnt mean you should discount that fact.

POPULATION GROWTH. Did you forget about that?

Originally posted by StaggerLeeOFB, If you are still bitter about 2000 its okay. Gore won the popular vote, lost the electoral college. I agree with that. I also feel that the correct person is holding office, given our election process. What I was pointing out with the MAJORITY RULES part was this. People who have agendas, be it legalized marajuano, gay marriage, no war in Iraq, etc, while they feel passionately about thier position, they are still not holding the opinion of the majority of the nation.

Somebody brought up if a majority of people thought certain groups should be in concentration camps does that make it the "right" thing to do. I put it this way, if a minority of people feel its okay for adults to have sex with children, should we allow it just because SOME people think its okay?

That's why you pay attention to the majority and the minority. You can't just plug your ears and scream 'MAJORITY RULES'. Well you can but that would be ignoring the issues, which seemed to be the theme of this campaign.

Originally posted by StaggerLeeSomebody brought up if a majority of people thought certain groups should be in concentration camps does that make it the "right" thing to do. I put it this way, if a minority of people feel its okay for adults to have sex with children, should we allow it just because SOME people think its okay?

No, because children aren't legal consenting adults.

The Constitution is in place to ensure the rights of the minority, not enforce majority rule.

Well, its nice to see the healing process beginning here. We lost, lets get over it and work on 2006. Republicans can run the country and have only themselves to blame for everything from now on, enjoy it.

Something that gets lost in a lot of things is the use of the word "devout" or "practicing". John Kerry was described (by himself even) a "devout Roman Catholic". Paul Martin, Prime Minister of Canada, has been described (by himself even) "a practicing Roman Catholic". I got two words for that;

Bull. Shit.

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, a highly placed member of the College of Cardinals, issued a letter not to long ago reminding Catholics about what we believe. A reminder of what we've believed for 2000 years plus now. It should come as no surprise, these things. Some of them are;

- As Catholics, we believe in that life begins at conception.- As Catholics, we believe in the scared marriage of one man and one woman.- As Catholics, we believe in that using embryos for stem cell research is wrong (see the first point to understand why).- As Catholics, we believe that the cloning of human beings is wrong.

John Kerry went against the first two (being anti-life in regards to abortion) and his support for same-sex marriage. I donít know what his stances are on the other two, but I know those are some hot-button issues these days. Those four things I listed are doctrines of the Church, things that have been taught for years. Centuries. To disregard those things is to disregard the Church, and to disregard doctrines such as those places you in an area where it might be time for you to re-consider your place within the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church is not a cafeteria line. It isn't something that you can pick some things to agree with and some things you can't. John Kerry called himself devout to try and grab some of the Catholic vote....and he paid for it. Because as Catholics, we hold allegiance and bow before a higher authority than the President of the USA or the Prime Minister of Canada. We bow to the One above, Jesus Christ. And unique to us among other Christians is that we have an authoritative body, lead by the Vicar of Christ, The Holy Father (current Pope John Paul II). When he speaks on matters of faith and morals, we listen.

And speak he has.

The call went out, and a lot of the Catholics across America answered. They went to the polls knowing that yes, itís ok to speak your mind on moral issues. That yes, itís ok to hold moral beliefs that people donít agree with. That yes, being Catholic is MORE than just being baptized and saying that you are. And MORE than just claiming youíre devout. And dammit, MORE than just picking and chosing what you want to believe in. You gotta live it. You gotta believe it. And itís about damn time people started to wake up and realize this.

You Americans who donít like the turn of events and want to come up here? Good stuff. By the sounds of things, it looks like maybe I should move down there. Iíll be able to speak my mind and profess my faith (which Iím not supposed use in any decisions up here in Canada).

God bless America. God bless Canada.

And DubyaÖ.congrads.

EDIT: Hey, if I move to the states maybe I can watch my old ball team! =)

Originally posted by wordlifeI hope you and StaggerLee and the rest of the majority will be the first to sign up for WWIII before they start a draft (I sure as hell shouldn't be over there, since I am a "wussy in the minority"). The way I look at it is that if you support him and his ideas, then you should be more than happy to go over to Iraq and defend Bush's ideologies and agendas.

Let me know how that turns out for ya dude! I will be more than happy to send you CARE packages to "the sandbox" as my friend calls it who is over there right now defending Bush's daddy's right to live.

Well, wordlife, I already have done my time and served with honor, courage and commitment and recieved my honorable discharge from the US Navy after 13 years of service, 2 1/2 years of that in a combat/hostile fire zone. Thanks for trying to imply that I would be too much of a pussy to go over, if you ever want to see my dd-214, I can send it to you. BTW, you are welcome for my service and next time you talk to your buddy, tell him thanks for me. He'd probably be happy to know that his sacrifices arent lost on all of America. Oh, and could you please let the Bush's Daddy shit go. He's his own man.

Furthermore, I hope neither one of you have sisters who get knocked up by some local loser and then are stuck helping to support their child that they end up resenting for the rest of their lives. Even better, I hope neither one of you end up having a one-niter with some gal and knock her up then are stuck basically marrying some girl you can't stand for hte rest of your life.

Well, my sisters both have kids and both have had thier tubes tied, and I have had a vasectomy, so dont worry about US needing an abortion. BTW, just because I support Bush doesnt mean I support ALL of his philosophies. I happen to believe in a woman right to have an abortion if she feels the need. But, nice of you to pigeonhole me with the FAR RIGHT.

The people who I really feel for here are the alternative lifestyle society. All they wanna do is get married and be left alone. And *GASP* most of them are just regular people who just want their own place and to be left alone with their own people. I wish everyone had the opportunity to hang out with a gay couple for one day, they would realize they are just normal couples who love each other. The laughable thing is that my brother, who is gay, and most of his friends tell me that they laugh about how straight men think they are all after them. They laugh b/c they feel most (read 99%)of straight men are lazy, ugly, crass, out-of-shape assholes.

Again, why do you assume all people who support Bush, or are republicans have never met a gay person? I work in HEALTHCARE, lots of lesbians in my job field. More so than in any other place I have worked. I agree, they should be able to live together and be left alone. No reason they need a piece of paper to make that happen. Just like me and my girlfriend live together and have no need for a piece of paper to make our relationship more real or more legitimate than anybody elses.

It's sad that we let a bunch of rednecks/morons vote on someone's civil liberties. It would be like letting me vote on the right for some of these people having the right to have children out of wedlock who they cannot support (which I am vehemently opposed to). I mean the Bible does say that basically "if you don't work, then you don't eat".

Way to generalize there. Guess what though pal, there are more REDNECKS and MORONS in America than sophisticated "educated" people such as yourself. And, until we come up with a system of passing laws and electing lawmakers that doesnt (in theory) have them representing the general will of the populace, you will continue to have "rednecks and morons" make laws for you.

Spiff, I know what you mean by the consenting adults viewpoint, I was using one extreme to point out how EXTREMES in opinion arent always the smartest thing.

Originally posted by Grimis...and I think regular readers of this forum know where I stand.

Yeah, somewhere between Looneyville and Crazytown.

Originally posted by GrimisIncidentally, you guys might want to try to avoid things like gay marriage in the future, because as you saw in the various referenda, gay marriage bans won big...

The "family values" bullshit is what won it. This election had nothing to do eith Iraq, ecomonic policies, domestic policies, etc - none of those were what folks slightly more than half the people voted for.

They voted on "moral" issues. And they saw Bush as being their guy. That's it.

I heard it on television in passing, so I forget who said it - not to get off topic, but I think it was on CNN regarding these Holloween Hell Houses that the religious right were putting up to convert people. But one of the folks being interviewed claimed that there was a worldwide religious fundamentalist movement happening. The US was also experiencing it, as were other coutries and religions - it just wasn't being talked about widely.

I think there some evidence that in the rural areas of this country, it's very much happening at a rapid rate - and that's why this election went the way it did.

When the Bible comes up with a definitive position on Hermaphrodites and Transsexuals getting married, you let me know. Until then, I'll continue to call bullshit on this "One man, One Woman" propaganda.

Originally posted by GrimisIncidentally, you guys might want to try to avoid things like gay marriage in the future, because as you saw in the various referenda, gay marriage bans won big. I'm not saying that's a good thing, and I think regular readers of this forum know where I stand. But you just can't run every liberal issue up the flagpole for every interest group and expect to win because you are in the minority (GOD that's fun to say).

You just hit on it. The Democratic party is dead nationally as long as they focus on anything that goes against the Evangelical agenda, because that is the driving ideology in large parts of the country. At some point the Dems will have to basically abandon social principles and say "you're right. God doesn't like single mothers, gay people, athiests, agnostics, Muslims, flag burning, big government, or drug users. We agree with everything" Only at that point can they turn the argument to, "and oh by the way, now that the scourge of abortion is banned for all time, praise Jesus, did you notice the GOP has abandoned you economically?" Because as long as people are willing to vote against their own economic and very survival interests to get right with God, there is no logic-based campaign that can win them over. None whatsoever. Ralph Reed has won. And I give him credit. The Xian Coalition and like-minded groups have had a long-term view starting 25 years ago that has finally come to total fruition. The Dems were owned all over the country, they are not a viable party in more than half the country, and are likely going to approach Whig-like irrelevance in the coming elections. The only hope for people on the left is that once the Right has total control then the fissures will crack, once the issues that bind the economic cons and social cons together are all won and decided, then only their differences will remain. At that point perhaps the three or four party state will become a reality where each side has a fighting chance. Because right now, the GOP is ascendant in a way unheard of in the television era of politics. And they earned it the old-fashioned way, street by street, church by church. You want props for the GOP, Grimis, here they are. This party has been so calculated the last 25 years as a PoliSci student it's awe-inspiring. Everything building to something else, always with an overarching vision. What is that vision? My personal hell. But they have gotten the majority to buy into it in such a way that I see nothing that can be done to stem the tide. Dems are trying to fight what is perceived as GOD'S WILL. How does one stop that.

Congrats Grimis, Stagger, Flea, and all the other Republicans on the board. Hopefully we'll all get to serve in the W Battallion when we all get drafted for Operation "Ah hell, let's just pave this middle east over" in 2007. I just hope none of us get any dubious purple hearts...we might not become president because of it ;)

Why is it inconceivable that someone might have an "anti-gay marriage" position that has nothing at all to do with the bible?

I think it is safe to say we all oppose murder here, but no one is screaming that murder should be allowed because those who oppose it are bible thumping freaks.

You know, a good first step in "reaching out" might be stopping with the assumption that those who disagree with you are evil, uneducated, racist Nazis who hate gays, old people, and women, and would like nothing more than to force you to join the army and work as slaves for billionaires. And you wonder why we don't take your arguments seriously.

El Nastio So now you get to decide if Kerry is a devout catholic or not?

The fact that he doesn't try to force his beliefs on others doesn't mean that he doesn't believe. Thats between him and god.

And I'm glad to see that being anti-stem cell and cloning are church doctorines that have been around for centuries.

Leroy You got it right, when it comes down to it the Republicans won based on moral issues. I thought we had swung far enough to the right for a backlash to begin, but it seems that it will take at least another two years for people to get upset over what they are losing.