To be fair, 2 of the games were against Hearts and Celtic. In the first, had Miller scored the penalty, who knows. In last night's game, the second Celtic goal was never a penalty and Celtic have not long put 6 past St Johnstone and 3 past Hearts. They have games coming up against St Mirren and Motherwell - lose both of them and there may be the semblance of a point.

To be fair, 2 of the games were against Hearts and Celtic. In the first, had Miller scored the penalty, who knows. In last night's game, the second Celtic goal was never a penalty and Celtic have not long put 6 past St Johnstone and 3 past Hearts. They have games coming up against St Mirren and Motherwell - lose both of them and there may be the semblance of a point.

We could use that logical argument with AJ too and Pars.

Little things go against us like dominating but missing chances and lose a late goal.

Didn't he win the League Cup and have Ross County in the top 6 a few seasons ago? I'm sure Dundee fans would love that sort of failure!

He did and good on him but I took time to read up on County fans comments after he was sacked.
I expected sympathy but was surprised to read they backed his departure and most of them mentioned a lack of a plan B when things went wrong.

But , seriously what do people think?
Changing a manager isnt always the best option nor is bringing one back who was there previous and failed in the Premier League?

I totally agree with the first part of your post, AAPS, but the second part is a bit harsh. I'm pretty sure, JM wasn't given any money to strengthen the team, after he won promotion to the SPL. They were condemned to go down before a ball was kicked.

McIntyre at Dundee isn't the only example of a new manager failing to deliver a 'bounce'. Kearney at St Mirren and McKinnon at Falkirk are another two and Gary Caldwell at Partick hasn't had a great start. Changing managers doesn't always have the desired effect - at least in the short run.

The board were right to sack McCann.
They were wrong to hire McIntyre. Didn't rate him when he was at Dunfermline.
Dundee didn't even interview anyone else for the job, just hired the first out of work manager they came across. Didn't even notice that he'd want to bring Billy Dodds with him. Total incompetence from John Nelms.

Faked injury and undermined his manager while here...hope he fails spectacularly.

I've heard that bandied about before, Rasta. Are you just repeating a rumour or do you know know something we don't? Not asking you to post any evidence, just curious.

I heard from two players and witnessed an astonishing episode myself which led to a director having a word with JM in front of me at the time....he's poison as far as I'm concerned and will not retract anything said about him....as I say...I witnessed an episode that in any other profession would have seen him sacked...an odious turd of a human.

Faked injury and undermined his manager while here...hope he fails spectacularly.

I've heard that bandied about before, Rasta. Are you just repeating a rumour or do you know know something we don't? Not asking you to post any evidence, just curious.

I heard from two players and witnessed an astonishing episode myself which led to a director having a word with JM in front of me at the time....he's poison as far as I'm concerned and will not retract anything said about him....as I say...I witnessed an episode that in any other profession would have seen him sacked...an odious turd of a human.

His stint at the Pars never sat well with me. Very turgid time to be a player then and Stephen Kenny was very clearly punted from within.

I'm not a fan for the reasons stated by Rastapari. I was amazed when he got the manager job here. That said, there is still no way he is accountable at Dundee for their current mess. The Falkirk comparison is a good one. They know that Hartley signed duds that not even Guardiola would be successful with. McKinnon will be given time.

Faked injury and undermined his manager while here...hope he fails spectacularly.

I've heard that bandied about before, Rasta. Are you just repeating a rumour or do you know know something we don't? Not asking you to post any evidence, just curious.

I heard from two players and witnessed an astonishing episode myself which led to a director having a word with JM in front of me at the time....he's poison as far as I'm concerned and will not retract anything said about him....as I say...I witnessed an episode that in any other profession would have seen him sacked...an odious turd of a human.

Not trolling, Rasta, genuine question here: do you hold other senior players from the time with such disdain?

indeed bizarre thread to have a pop on. Certainly done some amount of training for someone who was downing tools and trying to get the manager sacked. Did he get Leishman sacked too or just the Irish Mourinho?

Like McKinnon at falkirk he's inherited an absolute shambles of a squad. The guy won us the league and some on here are questioning his capacities as a manager. Laughable. Away for a lie down folks. Would have him back in a heartbeat.

Rasta, I just get tired of posts from people hinting at things they know without actually saying anything.

If someone knows something that they can share, then do so.

If someone has been told something in confidence, then they should keep it entirely to themselves.

That's fair enough so I'll expand, I have had family in or around the club since Jackie Hart (My Mum's dad) was the groundsman through to my Uncle Joe Nelson being kit man, so on the odd occasion had family business at EEP and would drop in.
I had already heard from two players I knew reasonably well that there were certain older players with "injuries" who were causing trouble with the then new management team and fancied themselves as potential for the job and that the atmosphere was murder. The two players are remaining anon for the simple reason it is now pointless to name them.
What I witnessed whilst waiting to see whom I arranged to meet was the aforemention JM showing quite an astonishing disregard for respect toward his employers..both management and club...which happened in front of a then director who pulled him aside for a word.
Some of the stories I heard in that time about a particular two perma injured seniors throughout Kenny's reign were disgusting...end of, the two chances should have been sacked imo.
Now I am not defending Kenny as a manager before we go down that route...but we all know whose long term injuries cleared up within days of Kenny' s departure...utter cheats and frauds whom some in here still fawn over.
If anyone would like to have that tale filled in I'll gladly recount names and all in person and what I witnessed, jyst come up and see me if I'm at the game.
I'm not playing I ken he kens, jyst putting my two bob in why I wouldn't have had JM as manager first time around let alone have him back...imo an arrogant and utter snake.

Rasta has confirmed what I've always suspected - some players were obviously not pulling their weight during Stephen Kenny's time at EEP. Maybe that was partly the manager's fault, in that he was unable to get the best out of all the squad, but it was completely unprofessional on the part of those players. By not giving of their best when they went out on the park, they cheated loyal Pars fans who paid good money to watch them. As Rasta says, you don't have to be an Einstein to work out who these players were. One of them was definitely JM. I'm saddened to think that other players, who were doing their best at the time, will have been tarred with the same brush.

I spoke to one of the players Rasta alludes to, in the Main Stand before a game, expressing surprise that he wasn't playing. "Aye, the gaffer wanted me to play, but I felt a wee twinge in training on Thursday and thought - better not to risk it. " Now, that might sound perfectly reasonable, but the broad smile and wink he gave me afterwards made me think he was at it. This player was then on £3.5k a week. I remember thinking if he'd been on £2k a week and £500 a point, he'd have played.

Rasta has confirmed what I've always suspected - some players were obviously not pulling their weight during Stephen Kenny's time at EEP. Maybe that was partly the manager's fault, in that he was unable to get the best out of all the squad, but it was completely unprofessional on the part of those players. By not giving of their best when they went out on the park, they cheated loyal Pars fans who paid good money to watch them. As Rasta says, you don't have to be an Einstein to work out who these players were. One of them was definitely JM. I'm saddened to think that other players, who were doing their best at the time, will have been tarred with the same brush.

I spoke to one of the players Rasta alludes to, in the Main Stand before a game, expressing surprise that he wasn't playing. "Aye, the gaffer wanted me to play, but I felt a wee twinge in training on Thursday and thought - better not to risk it. " Now, that might sound perfectly reasonable, but the broad smile and wink he gave me afterwards made me think he was at it. This player was then on £3.5k a week. I remember thinking if he'd been on £2k a week and £500 a point, he'd have played.

The whole thing was very suspect.
It doesn't admonish Stephen Kenny as the buck stopped with him but for players to down tools was unforgivable.
The thrashing by Hamilton at EEP that season was the clearest signal to any fan that some players set out to get him sacked.
It only needs a few key players for that to happen not the whole team.

I don't know anything about the Jim McIntyre stories, but I think half the support strongly suspected the part that some of the players had in turning the animosity towards Kenny.

His track record before and since being at the Pars does not indicate an incompetent manager, albeit in Irish leagues.

He did manage the team to a win over Rangers en route to the Scottish Cup Final, ironically McIntyre getting the winner in the semi final.

If any truth in the players not giving their best for Kenny, it dies not say much that the Board and the Chairman were unaware of such goings on, but then maybe they too wanted him out one year after appointing him.

I think that most of our fans have heard these stories. I often wondered if Kenny was the type of manager who expected the players to burst a gut in training and playing. Paul le Guen wanted the same at Rangers and he was let down badly. Is it that most of the players in Scotland don't give 100%, 100% of the time?

Kennys training was by all means, an absolute shambles. The likes of Tam McManus who even admits to being a fan of him has done interview/blog posts about his time and charge and it's little wonder that he had absolutely no respect.

In any job an incompetent manager can make you perform well below your best, it's amazing just how much people get drawn in by how nice a guy he apparently was to the extent they completely forget how dreadful he was at us, remember when he was first appointed and didn't score in something like 9 games? That's before you could blame the players for apparently working against him.

He's not been a success at every club either, when he manages the "bigger" Irish sides he also failed, maybe he can't deal with larger clubs?

McIntyre is our biggest 2nd best manager in the past 19 years? He never played up to the fans in our support and probably wasn't as nice a guy as Kenny, he put some good teams on the park though which is by far and away the most important point of a manager.

They hadn't turned against him in those first 9 games though and he was dreadful, he took us over in 11th and at one point had us 12 points behind. Why not look at his record with Shamrock Rovers? Good managers don't let the workforce turn against him, good managers don't offer troublesome players new contracts.

Not heard a good word about the training Marv. The ones where they talk specifically about the routines they did brings it home how ridiculous some of the drills were.

Proper professional footballers give 100% effort for their employers, no matter what they think of the manager. They should do what they are told and give their best. I was sickened by some of the performances some players put in at that time, so much so that I stopped going as regularly. A few players cheated the club and the fans

I hasten to add...i was not and have never been to any significant degree "in the know".
My family members rarely talked serious club business...the conversations with the players came about through mutual...for a time frequent company..nothing more...work chat.
The incident I alluded to earlier happened in front of me...and I believe another frequent poster on here yet to comment saw something very similar.
There were background influences looking after the cheats too.
Edit..that last bit wasn't meant to be conspicuous...put simply...family ties.

The Stephen Kenny dismissal left a lot of Pars fans quite bitter and disappointed, myself included. There was something clearly amiss in the dressing room and the sleekit manner in which he was dismissed by Yorkston and replaced by McIntyre was absolutely shameful.

The truth is Kenny inherited a crock of schight. The club was 3 pts adrift at the bottom of the SPL after 17 games when he arrived and while we just missed out on escaping relegation, he managed to take us to two cup finals in his 13 months tenure. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is something no other Pars manager has ever achieved.

The player squad was largely the creation of the Jim Leishman/David Hay eras with a couple of Calderwood leftovers. It was an aging and unfit squad with players all too fixed in their ways.

When he arrived, 20 players in the squad were injured and had not played since the start of the season. Eight required operations.

Kenny and his assistant Declan Devine immediately saw that fitness was a serious issue. Sensibly, they instituted double training sessions and the famous ice-baths that aided recovery and are considered the norm at football clubs today. Incidentally, I understand that ice-baths are still being used at EEP.

Their emphasis was on training and preparation and improved recovery programmes, their philosophy was playing with width and keeping the ball on the deck. The old guard didn't take too kindly to that and soon the gossip mongers were out in force.

Kenny was a young manager with enormous promise and perhaps with a squad of his own making, rather than the crocks he inherited and foolishly resigned, the Pars would have had a different history.

Don't forget that it was he who managed to convince Liverpool and Celtic that
they should loan us two of the brightest young stars we had seen at EEP in more than 20 years. Following their successful loans, who would we have got the following season had we survived in the Premier?

Around the same time, a similar story was emerging at Easter Road where a young John Collins was trying to institute a modern football philosophy that demanded players achieve peak fitness and perform at levels regarded as a norm on mainland Europe. Alas, the dinosaurs that ruined the Scottish game for decades on and off the field were not ready for the likes of Kenny or Collins and good old-fashioned pragmatism won the day. It was a pyrrhic victory.

We could hardly score a goal nevermind win a Premier league match apart from the last few games yet we went on a Scottish cup run beating top teams in the country while bonus cash was offered.
I don't doubt they ALL tried in that last run in to try save us from the drop but more to do with keeping a place in the squad knowing we were heading for a final.

It was the following season we saw quite a blatant execution of players letting the club and fans down and I still remember the whispers about JM even before Stephen Kenny was disposed off.

An excellent post OzPar. When it all happened, I revealed a lot of what has been said above, but I was crucified on .net even although I knew what the truth was. I truly hope it never happens again at our club.

The Stephen Kenny fan club still out in force. An absolutely horrendous manager who had our players "training" by doing 5-a-side most days. Absolutely mental. No wonder the squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer.

The Stephen Kenny fan club still out in force. An absolutely horrendous manager who had our players "training" by doing 5-a-side most days. Absolutely mental. No wonder the squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer.

Not so much a Kenny fan club...more a group of people bright enough to know a set of senior players cheated the fans and club.

''The workforce doesn't turn against good managers, and that's the end of that.''

Whether a professional footballer likes his manager or not, should be completely irrelevant when he has been selected to play and steps onto the pitch. The manager does not pay his wages.

The money comes mainly from loyal fans, of course and the very least they are entitled to is that the players do their level best for the duration of every game. To give anything less than 100% is completely unprofessional and cheating those who subsidise your income.

And if you can't give of your best because you haven't looked after yourself or trained hard enough during the week, your even more culpable, in my humble one.

Players are at the end of the day human, and football is there job. And in any job a good manager can elevate your performances while a bad one can absolutely destroy your motivation and performances, I've seen both ends of that scale on a workforce. While it's nice to think that the players will always give 110% etc etc it's just not the case, it's why a decent manager is such a priority.

How early did these players turn against him? First 9 games of the his tenur when we didn't score aye? Also using the challenge cup final as some sort of plus point, lol.

Remember McManus speaking about how he had the players practising shooting from the halfway line and they weren't allowed to leave until they'd scored last our keeper, they were begging him to. Let one in and eventually an absolute trundle went in. Kenny didn't even realise and was delighted.

I was always appalled by the fact that certain pars players could be spotted utterly minced out their heads on a Saturday night in aldos chippy during the SK years. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that , but every weekend ??? Chancers

Macca doesn't do irony....he's just been on the radio talking about respecting and trusting your manager😂
Fraud and snake....treated our club with utter contempt until he landed the gig.
I sincerely hope the players at Dundee show him the same respect he showed.

The Stephen Kenny fan club still out in force. An absolutely horrendous manager who had our players "training" by doing 5-a-side most days. Absolutely mental. No wonder the squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer.

The squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer because they spent more time in the local boozer as well as the local bookies than they dedicated to training. They were a disgrace

The Stephen Kenny fan club still out in force. An absolutely horrendous manager who had our players "training" by doing 5-a-side most days. Absolutely mental. No wonder the squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer.

The squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer because they spent more time in the local boozer as well as the local bookies than they dedicated to training. They were a disgrace

This... I got a bucket load of abuse because I called out a certain well connected and at the time fat and injured chancer.....got a cracking picture of him a bit worse for wear outside a bookies chomping a pie on a Friday afternoon....he had quite an accomplished pair of breasts for an alleged professional sportsman and a knack for recovery after his manager was sacked.
Again...no defence of Kenny...more a scathing insight to the contempt and arrogance of a fat chancer stealing a wage who still unfathomably gets fawned over.

The Stephen Kenny fan club still out in force. An absolutely horrendous manager who had our players "training" by doing 5-a-side most days. Absolutely mental. No wonder the squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer.

The squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer because they spent more time in the local boozer as well as the local bookies than they dedicated to training. They were a disgrace

This... I got a bucket load of abuse because I called out a certain well connected and at the time fat and injured chancer.....got a cracking picture of him a bit worse for wear outside a bookies chomping a pie on a Friday afternoon....he had quite an accomplished pair of breasts for an alleged professional sportsman and a knack for recovery after his manager was sacked.
Again...no defence of Kenny...more a scathing insight to the contempt and arrogance of a fat chancer stealing a wage who still unfathomably gets fawned over.

This, this a thousand times this. Cheers Rasta. I've no idea where the adulation came from for that particular buffet assassin. Still i'm sure with his ludicrous wage and undeserved send off he could afford plenty of sports bras for his boy boobies.

If we are talking about the same former chubby faced club captain, then in fairness under Calderwood, he did okay. Flung the towel in soon after though. I remember in the dark days of Davie Hay, when he couldn't play at Parkhead due to injury, I was surprised to see him picking up a suit from Pullars drycleaners in the Kings Gate, while his understudy young Greg Ross was scoring the winner against Celtic. I always thought it strange that being club captain, he wouldn't be at the game to provide some backing for the lads rather than preparing for his usual Saturday and Sunday nights out

If we are talking about the same former chubby faced club captain, then in fairness under Calderwood, he did okay. Flung the towel in soon after though. I remember in the dark days of Davie Hay, when he couldn't play at Parkhead due to injury, I was surprised to see him picking up a suit from Pullars drycleaners in the Kings Gate, while his understudy young Greg Ross was scoring the winner against Celtic. I always thought it strange that being club captain, he wouldn't be at the game to provide some backing for the lads rather than preparing for his usual Saturday and Sunday nights out

That would be because not one **** was given...a selfish cheat of a man...in all respects.
He was trying to get in about a flatmate of mine...his absolute 100% nae chance always amused me,given he was married.

I'm just shocked and disappointed that football players can make bad decisions and do and say bad things.... It's almost like they're humans like the rest of us.
Here was me thinking they were all superheroes too.
Gutted min 😂

I'm just shocked and disappointed that football players can make bad decisions and do and say bad things.... It's almost like they're humans like the rest of us.
Here was me thinking they were all superheroes too.
Gutted min 😂

Bad decisions like feigning injury?
Bad decisions like screwing over a support week in week out for months to the tune of about 5k a week?
I take it he let you buy him a pint up the town once...

I'm just shocked and disappointed that football players can make bad decisions and do and say bad things.... It's almost like they're humans like the rest of us.
Here was me thinking they were all superheroes too.
Gutted min 😂

Bad decisions like feigning injury?
Bad decisions like screwing over a support week in week out for months to the tune of about 5k a week?
I take it he let you buy him a pint up the town once...

Nope, cos I've no idea who you're on about... And I don't really care to be perfectly honest. They're not at the club anymore as far as I can gather from the comments but I really don't want or need to know who this is all about.
My post was more along the general lines of... Footballers are just as flawed as the rest of us.
Nothing more... Nothing less.
It certainly wasn't a pop at anyone.
More a general statement.
Oh... And for the record... I don't drink.

A top player in SK era said his training was brilliant main issue was he basically let the more senior guys off with murder! Put too much trust in them to be professional on and off the park and most of them took the p***. Other posts seem to have a common theme Sk far from perfect but some players surely at fault?

They were dark days. SK and some players didn't come out of this with any glory.
It wasn't all one sided as anyone in Gothenburg realised but extremely unprofessional and Jim McIntyre was without question shoehorned into the managers chair.

There were a few unhealthy rumours doing the rounds in Gothenburg, which led to a few unhealthy chants. Also Pars fan's fighting amongst themselves in the ground and in the streets. Always though there was a big divide in the support then.

After reading the Gothenburg comments above, I found this article on the BBC website. Although it is a painful reminder of those times, it is worth reading through to the comments at the very end. Given what has been discussed, you might appreciate the irony...

=====

BK HACKEN 1-0 DUNFERMLINE (2-1)

Dunfermline failed to reach the first round of the Uefa Cup after losing out to BK Hacken in Gothenburg.

Stevie Crawford wasted a great chance for the Pars, shooting wide from 12 yards, before Ari Skulason slotted the Swedes in front after 27 minutes. Jim Hamilton missed with a close range header before getting sent off, picking up two foolish bookings for dissent. The Fife side continued to press but the 10-men could not find a way through the home defence.

A tiny crowd, including around 1,000 travelling fans, scattered across the 43,000-seater Ullevi stadium to watch a scrappy match unfold.

Hacken carved out a decent opportunity when Paulo Jose Oliviera crossed from the byline but Sol Bamba did superbly to block Daniel Larsson's effort. Two minutes later Dunfermline passed up a gilt-edged chance. Paul Gallacher's long kick was flicked on by Hamilton into the path of the on-rushing Crawford but he planted his drive just wide, with the goal gaping.

Hacken broke the deadlock when Daniel Larsson's cross from the right drifted over to the unmarked Skulason and he struck a left-foot shot into the ground across Gallacher. Five minutes later, the Fifers missed another glorious opportunity, Hamilton nodding wide at the far post from Owen Morrison's cross. Crawford then fired past on the turn after another Hamilton flick on.

After 50 minutes, it was Bamba's turn to threaten, when he just failed to touch in Stephen Glass' free-kick. But Dunfermline's cause was hampered with Hamilton's bizarre 57th-minute red card. Booked in the first half for dissent, the forward picked up another yellow card when he kicked the ball away after being adjudged offside.

Strikers Tam McManus and Mark Burchill were thrown on, but being a man down prevented the Pars from really testing their hosts. And Oliviera should have added a second goal for the Swedes on the break but Gallacher palmed his shot into the side-netting.

Manager Stephen Kenny remains committed to Dunfermline after falling at the first Uefa Cup hurdle. The Pars have made a poor start to life in Division One.

But when asked if he was thinking about leaving the Fife club, Kenny told BBC Sport: "Absolutely not. We prepared well for this game and we missed two great chances in the first half. It's very disappointing because we thought we could do well here."

Striker Jim Hamilton was upset at his sending off in Sweden, having been shown two yellow cards for dissent.

"They were two bad decisions in my eyes," Hamilton told BBC Sport. It's very frustrating because with 11 we would have gone on to win the game. We were well on top. We created the better chances and they probably had one shot in the first half."

The small band of fans from Fife booed their team off the park and Hamilton had sympathy for those who travelled.

"I can understand their frustration," he added. "They have paid a lot of money to come over. But we need them to get behind us because we need everyone giving 100% for the club."

I'm just shocked and disappointed that football players can make bad decisions and do and say bad things.... It's almost like they're humans like the rest of us.
Here was me thinking they were all superheroes too.
Gutted min 😂

I appreciate you were being a tad flippant with the above post but you do make a valid point - footballers are only human and they sometimes fall short of our expectations. If these allegations are true, or even partially true, however, then they're rather more serious than "bad decisions " or errors of judgment.

I don't know how good a manager SK was at the time, but that is almost irrelevant because, as mach1 says, if a proportion of your workforce set out to undermine what you're trying to do, you've got no chance. In this case, if the allegations are true, a group of senior players set out to get rid of a young, relatively inexperienced manager. We don't know if he approached the BoD about them, but they didn't back him if he did. With hindsight, he should have asked them to move these players out and resign if they refused, but that would obviously cost him money if he walked out.

From what has been said on this thread, there's every reason to conclude that these allegations are not groundless and it will leave a bad taste in the mouth of many fans because these players didn't just let their manager down, but themselves, the club and above all, they cheated the fans who paid their wages.

Player power is nothing new in football, as far better managers than SK have found out, but it is completely unprofessional conduct by the players who orchestrate it. We don't want to back to the times when the likes of Jim McLean at Tannadice and our own George Farm were allowed to bully players by laissez faire Boards, but the 1968 SC winning Pars team showed that it is possible to dislike the manager but still play for the jersey.

Ahhh .net with its 20/20 hindsight’s. Hovis ad music kicks in and everyone hates us. Any manager who thinks Bobby Ryan, Owen Morrison and many others were good players you need to be asking questions.

Any manager who blames the leaves/bird feathers on the pitch for the training not being right is a fraud.

As discussed before Kenny done well when he first came it. All seemed to go a bit t!ts up after a relegation and pre season where he had his chance to put his mark on the side and build his own side.

Surprised the daily record doesn’t have a “staff member doesn’t get along with manager” headline

Don't see many sticking up for Kenny though....
I'm sorry but those senior players are snakes, there are far worse tales than have been outlined here too.
I've just been asked on social media if I would recount them to the player's involved faces....ooooh a strong 100% yes...in fact I'd dearly love to in one particular case.

I don’t pretend to know all the ins and outs of Stephen Kenny’s tenure but it was patently obvious to us fans watching that the team were not playing to their potential. Player power was definitely in evidence which I found extremely disappointing. We were paying good money to watch a team, most of whom on the park were not trying a leg and others were “injured”.
Many of the players didn’t like SK (& his team), they didn’t like the training, they didn’t like much about him at all and decided to get rid - I was told this directly at that time by someone who worked closely with the players. So, it was no surprise to me that SK left. Whether he was/is a good manager I have no idea but I hate to see anyone lose their job by someone else’s actions.
There are a number of players from that era who still rankle with me. I was desperate to see a certain team playing in a certain testimonial game but no way was I going to contribute to the coffers of that particular player!!
It was a time of supporting the Pars that I found really difficult and hope never to see again. I do remember my dad telling me that the players disliked George Farm back in the 60s - didn’t stop them winning a cup though.

Well done Rasta and co for highlighting all this. About time too. We all know things weren’t right then and you can’t hide forever. I too avoided “this testimonial” for the same reason as above. Better players weren’t given this opportunity. Disgrace.

GEW35, Superb post and absolutely spot on. I loved Man U and the chance to see them at EEP was a dream come true, however, I never set foot at DAFC that night. I could not contribute , knowing what was going on . Some of the Pars players were a disgrace to our club and yes to the fans who were keeping them in their fancy lifestyles with the fancy wages they were getting.
Our Fans were well and truly cheated by players they idolised and would have scraped every penny to go to watch them, and this was what they thought of us. I hope this will never again at DAFC. Agree or not, this was a very dark time at our club.

Footnote: At the time of the Rio Ferdinand Testimonial at Old Trafford, I was in the DASC Ofiice selling the first of the shirts Fans were donating to help "SAVE THE CLUB", and a Pars supporter came to me and gave me and my Husband two tickets to go down to this game. This we did, and I am thankful to this day. It was a beautiful gesture .

I'll reiterate...i'm more than happy to go into more detail...just come grab me for a blether.
I'm just glad these thieving cheats are getting their day in the sun...it was red and black cards for mentioning this back in the day.

I’m also glad that this is being allowed to be aired without censorship.
It would be interesting to hear SK’s (and a few other players) honest thoughts on what went on and for the truth to be made public.
If only the trouble makers had been punted rather than being allowed to steal a wage.
Am I right in thinking that SK’s biggest regret was allowing certain players to stay or renew their contracts?

I’m also glad that this is being allowed to be aired without censorship.
It would be interesting to hear SK’s (and a few other players) honest thoughts on what went on and for the truth to be made public.
If only the trouble makers had been punted rather than being allowed to steal a wage.
Am I right in thinking that SK’s biggest regret was allowing certain players to stay or renew their contracts?

Purely anecdotal evidence I'll concede but from what I heard not entirely up to him.

Perhaps SK does not want to talk about what must have been a horrible time in his career. Yes it would be great to know the truth, however some of the players being mentioned are quite wealthy and could get lawyers to fight these stories.
I know that by the time he was sacked he looked a broken man and I for one felt sorry for him. I remember the rumours that were flying about at that time.

The Stephen Kenny fan club still out in force. An absolutely horrendous manager who had our players "training" by doing 5-a-side most days. Absolutely mental. No wonder the squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer.

The squad were about as fit as the regulars of a local boozer because they spent more time in the local boozer as well as the local bookies than they dedicated to training. They were a disgrace

Perhaps SK does not want to talk about what must have been a horrible time in his career. Yes it would be great to know the truth, however some of the players being mentioned are quite wealthy and could get lawyers to fight these stories.
I know that by the time he was sacked he looked a broken man and I for one felt sorry for him. I remember the rumours that were flying about at that time.

He came in fresh faced with so much enthusiasm but after we got relegated, you could almost see him getting more grey and worn out from one week to the next. As you say, he looked like a broken man by the time he was sacked.

I might write a book before I leave this planet, believe me it would be some reading re this awful period. Just a wee taster, some of the youth players at the would come out with some corkers from the dressing room after training. Very sad time.

If you wrote a book on it & interviewed everyone involved you'd get several different versions of the truth, so what's the point?

There can only ever be one true version of the truth, Angus.....

Looking through the thread, I must take my share of the blame, as I asked Rasta if he was merely repeating old rumours or he knew something we didn't. He opened up after that and I'm glad he did. Pars fans who were shortchanged during that time have a right to know the truth. Just because it happened a long time ago, doesn't mean it should remain buried for the sake of a group of players who were completely unprofessional and pretty poor role models.

Btw, are you of the same opinion, regarding Jimmy Savile? He's moved on as well....... to a very hot place, I hope.

It's absolutely galling to be reading all this. I remember at the time, putting myself in a lot of debt and hardship, to get a season ticket and to go to all the away games to support our team. To hear that some of the players were not even trying is f*****g criminal😡😡😡

Exactly GG Riva, we need this to be made public so that this never happens again. Individuals apparently undermined the manager and put themselves above the fans and the club. I don’t know why you wouldn’t want it to be discussed, especially since a lot of people don’t or didn’t know what went on.

It is being talked about again because some fans were wanting JM to be back at the club and if what’s being said is true then he (and others) should never be allowed anywhere near DAFC again.

The idea that it should be swept under the carpet and forgotten about is ridiculous.

Tounba Libre, it is true, I can assure you and when some of us tried to make it public back then we were talked down by mates, relatives and friends of the guilty. I was targeted in Legends one day by one of them lying about me to their cliche and well, I won't go right into it, but the person was a player's partner at the time. and they had to get her out of Legends toot sweet, nobody does that to me.

The Jimmy Saville comparison one is a poor one. That's a criminal case and people's lives were damaged.

I agree that the truth is important but in this case I don't think we will ever fully know it. The deed is done and the culprits are long gone. Does this really benefits the current BoD, club & fans dragging all this up...and to what end?
The best we are going to get is some moral victory, at what cost?

We probably were being short changed by certain players, but let's not forget during the Calderwood/Yorkston/Masterton era we were paying a fortune in wages and running up massive debts. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't remember any protest marches along HR or threads on .net protesting about the financial state of affairs.

Collectively we were all ignoring the financial plight and enjoying the ride. We are football supporters not business men but deep down we all knew it was a runaway train that was going to come of the tracks one day.

The club is now stable and were are run by good honest people (I hope!).

The Jimmy Saville comparison one is a poor one. That's a criminal case and people's lives were damaged.

I agree that the truth is important but in this case I don't think we will ever fully know it. The deed is done and the culprits are long gone. Does this really benefits the current BoD, club & fans dragging all this up...and to what end?
The best we are going to get is some moral victory, at what cost?

We probably were being short changed by certain players, but let's not forget during the Calderwood/Yorkston/Masterton era we were paying a fortune in wages and running up massive debts. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't remember any protest marches along HR or threads on .net protesting about the financial state of affairs.

Collectively we were all ignoring the financial plight and enjoying the ride. We are football supporters not business men but deep down we all knew it was a runaway train that was going to come of the tracks one day.

The club is now stable and were are run by good honest people (I hope!).

I'd rather look forward.

Quite simply...this a Pars forum...were talking about Pars history...a history that some wanted to be swept under the carpet.
Imo these chancers should have their day in the sun....all eyes on them.
My Mum brought the subject up at a meet the manager night and one of those cheating hoors was in attendance...stared at the floor the entire time...a coward.
Now I think these things bear being brought up...especially in the context of some people wanting one of these snakes back in the club...a club they don't even deserve to be associated with.

I get what you're saying and agree to a point but with this lot and the extent they went to to undermine our club...they're worth the mention imo.

The Jimmy Saville comparison one is a poor one. That's a criminal case and people's lives were damaged.

I agree that the truth is important but in this case I don't think we will ever fully know it. The deed is done and the culprits are long gone. Does this really benefits the current BoD, club & fans dragging all this up...and to what end?
The best we are going to get is some moral victory, at what cost?

We probably were being short changed by certain players, but let's not forget during the Calderwood/Yorkston/Masterton era we were paying a fortune in wages and running up massive debts. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't remember any protest marches along HR or threads on .net protesting about the financial state of affairs.

Collectively we were all ignoring the financial plight and enjoying the ride. We are football supporters not business men but deep down we all knew it was a runaway train that was going to come of the tracks one day.

The club is now stable and were are run by good honest people (I hope!).

I'd rather look forward.

The reference to Jimmy Savile was a throwaway comment and not intended as a like for like comparison, Angus. For sure, his crimes were far more serious than the less than honourable conduct of some of our former players, but let's not lose sight of what they did and the sense of betrayal induced among our support. I can see from the rest of your post that we're pretty much on the same wavelength. I agree that the club was poorly managed and poorly run during the Masterton era and could only end in tears. None of this excuses the dishonest conduct of a number of players during that time. It was your suggestion that there was no point in bringing this up so long after the fact, that I disagreed with and if you quickly read through the thread, you'll see that you're in a tiny minority with your stance on it.

Stevie Crawford was the only one of the players who had gone through the same type of training as what SK tried to install while he was at Plymouth. He tried his very best to educate his fellow pro's.

When however that meant missing out on their afternoons on the golf course and in the bookies it started going downhill as it wasn't just our players involved.

Some serious money was played for on a few gold courses against players from other squads and a few of our players were making a bit of money on the afternoon 4 balls.

Craig Robertson also had a major part in the downfall of the manager.

As much as SK was undermined by quite a few the super injunction prior to the Haken game which I was then black carded for at the time was his ultimate downfall and the decision had already been made within the club prior to the Haken game.

The backlash continued even after he left with many players unhappy with the JM appointment.

PS the 5 a side training was a major part of close control and pressing trying meant to be fun and bonding and used very like futsol on the continent for folk to keep using it as a stick to beat the man really know very little. Most of the time it was played without keepers who were training elsewhere so direct attack and defence training.

The training throughout Europe is light years ahead of Scotland as reflected in our national team, having done many of my Scottish youth training badges and having been trained to a high level in England 30 years ago we are still light years behind Europe now!

Change is needed unfortunately the vast core of players in Scotland don't want it, the players generally released to Scotland on loan are those needing toughened up or need to learn discipline as an improvement to their game.

Stephen Kenny could have been our Alex Ferguson with the right squad and time, he literally was the right man wrong time.

I had the pleasure to speak to him a number of times and he was the most polite person you would meet who was passionate on success which he so wanted to achieve with Dunfermline, he was a broken and haunted man when he left Fife!

It is so refreshing to see this finally come out. It has too long been a festering sore at EEP. Way too many myths have surrounded the period, largely because SK and his supporters have remained silent.

There is always two sides to a story and at last the silent side is being heard.

I always believed it was Kenny being a poor manager but reading this is very damning of some of the players involved. It was always startling our form in cup competitions against our rank League form. The 3 results against Hamilton, Livingston and Stirling when we got relegated suggested to me that a few of them had downed tools.

As for Scott Thomson he knew the script and as far as I know he hardly hardly exchanged a word with JM as it was indeed ST who thought was going to take the managers job on SK's downfall. Little did he he know that JM was working so sneekit he had actually undone a fellow Judas in the process.

As for Scott Thomson he knew the script and as far as I know he hardly hardly exchanged a word with JM as it was indeed ST who thought was going to take the managers job on SK's downfall. Little did he he know that JM was working so sneekit he had actually undone a fellow Judas in the process.

What I would say is that I mainly enjoyed McIntyres spell in charge. We were a pretty good team to watch playing really good football. Cardle, Bell, Graham, Gibson and Kirk were all his signings and all contributed a great deal.

Rastapari, Renegade master, Steaua et al. I for one am grateful for your contribution and insight... despite others not wanting it discussed.

I always felt SK would have been
fantastic for us if he had managed to get rid of that rotten core.

Thing is I actually agree with those averse to this being hauled up...but it has been.
I'll only speak for myself when referencing the "insight" you mention in that it wasn't inside information or insidious...it was very ordinary exchanges and very ordinary circumstances....which sadly begs the question was that the norm..the mindset?

Now to be clear...there are valid arguments that a different type of manager would have flourished in an atmosphere like that and played the players...SK was not that man.
To counter...unavoidably the background noise and influence was thus that at that stage of his career...and the level of dishonesty from senior team figures...he stood little chance.

I digress...

Reading through the thread the comments from seasoned posters who were aware of certain things at the time it struck me they became aware in the most ordinary of circumstances.
It's a wee toon..folks know folks..it's not really a great leap when you think about it.

Thanks everyone for the info on this, and also the .net admins for leaving it all up.

Honestly I had next to no clue about any of this, I had heard that JM was always gunning for the manager's job but had no idea it was to this extent.

Fairly shocked about ST too. And a bit saddened, I always thought he had a real investment in the Pars. Oh well. I missed most of the start of the 07-08 season because I worked Saturday shifts at the time, so didn't see how bad the performances were.

I also missed the testimonial though, thank fvck.

Hints at other players who were "injured"... I'm trying to remember that far back but can't think of any.

I don't stay in the town so missed all of the rumours that were probably flying about back then. What's the Gotherberg story? A super-injunction???

Having read all this I think the most shocking revelation in this thread is that an utter diddy like Owen Morrison played a European tie for the Pars!

Grant he he was light years ahead of the current crop of incumbents on the managerial merry go round look at Steve Clarke, Steve Robinson, Neil Lennon, Steven Gerrard, Gary Holt.

All managers bringing the European ethos to their respective clubs having served their time outwith Scotland and slowly but surely showing dividends.

The players to the managers are the ethos, that was our downfall.

Same as Paul le Guan (sp) at Rangers them lot were their for their final pay cheques, John Collins at Hibs.

Craig Levein learnt so much at Leicester when he returned to Scotland he got Raith playing and seriously improved Dundee Utd but was faced with identical challenges in his Scotland role and made some personal errors.

It's what he saw in Cathro at Hearts who was not strong enough to implement, you can't doubt that the ruthlessness of Levein at Hearts knowing he has the full support of Ann Budge has been spectacular.

That is where we failed in the support of SK.

St Mirren also need to give Oran Kearney time but I'm not sure he is going to get it as they are scared of relegation but the thought of JM keeping SK's pal in a job is quite amusing!

The workforce doesn't turn against good managers, and that's the end of that.

See Brian Clough and Leeds United for the ultimate example of this!

Sometimes in a football club you get too many bad apples and no matter how good the manager - they’ll rot the rest.

For me SKs biggest mistake was not emptying the entire squad when relegated, meaning that his remaining budget was so right we saw more of the Jamie Harris/Bobby Ryan quality rather than the Noel Hunt quality from Ireland. One thing JMc did when he got to his first full season, was to get rid of a large number of the poor performers...ironically what he didn’t do when he got to the Premier.

Man management is a humongous part of management, it's all fine and well having ethos but that doesn't count for anything if you can't implement it. To compare him to Alex Ferguson is an absolute travesty, Cathro is a far better comparison, someone who may very well have meant well, but ultimately not a good enough manager for the size of the club.

Interestingly Jim McIntyre after his dismissal went and worked at Bristol for a time to broaden his horizons, from someone who works at Queen of the South the increased professionalism when he took over from AJ was huge.

''Man management is a humongous part of management, it's all fine and well having ethos but that doesn't count for anything if you can't implement it. To compare him to Alex Ferguson is an absolute travesty...''

I think the poster making the comparison was probably hinting at potential, Grant, but I agree with you. if SK was even remotely in the Fergie mould, he'd have booted any trouble makers right out of EEP, just like Fergie did when he arrived at OT and found a drinking clique. I think it's more likely that SK was a young, naive manager who got precious little backing from the Board.

''Interestingly Jim McIntyre after his dismissal went and worked at Bristol for a time to broaden his horizons, from someone who works at Queen of the South the increased professionalism when he took over from AJ was huge.

With that in mind, would I take McIntyre back? In a heartbeat.''

Not me. He could be better than Pep, Jose or Klopp. I still wouldn't want someone like that managing the club I love. When a man abandons his principles, he loses his dignity.

''The workforce doesn't turn against good managers, and that's the end of that.

See Brian Clough and Leeds United for the ultimate example of this!

Sometimes in a football club you get too many bad apples and no matter how good the manager - they’ll rot the rest.''

I don't think Clough at Leeds was the best example you could have chosen, Ross. He went in to Elland Rd with a Billy Bigbaws attitude, which was guaranteed to turn the senior players like Giles, Bremner, J. Charlton, Hunter and Co. by telling them, '' Chuck all your effing medals in the bin - you won them all by cheating...''

Had he adopted a more softly, softly approach, he might have lasted rather more than 44 days, for he was a damn good manager, but that would have run completely against his rather arrogant personality......

You’ve got to wonder who was starting the unsavoury rumours about SK at the time too. One including a fairly young local female. What utter scumbags we had attached to the club back then.

These rumours coincided with the Gothenburg trip.
I was barely off the plane and people were spreading these stories.
There was a sense of foreboding about the game after that and fans at the match were visibly furious with our abject performance.
SK looked totally down and dejected afterwards.

I know that some of our fans were raging at the goings on against SK, so much so that one of them went to SK's house to apologise for what was happening to him and his family. It so happened, his wife was on her own as Stephen was in Newcastle doing his European badges. What the hell must they have thought about what they had come in amongst.

Let me just say, I am thankful for the Chairman we now have as he is off very strong character and in my opinion, would not have let any of that happen.

In the interest of balance, I'm sure the players would have a different take on this.

We interviewed quite a few of them during the Into the Valley research and Stevie C for the podcast. From memory, there's nothing particularly controversial but it's unfair on some guys that gave years of decent service to the club to just accept they downed tools on SK's watch. I accept the counter-argument that nobody is going to confirm that they did.

That's not to doubt anyone's particular anecdotes or reading of the situation of the time, just some caution that different people can have different viewpoints of exactly the same events.

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If I was in World War Two they'd call me spitfire

It's laughable to read that all SK had to do was boot the trouble makers out. I remember vividly at the time being constantly told there was no more to either sign replacements or to terminate the contracts of the troublemakers.

I was one of quite a few who thought Kenny got a raw deal and was let down by the club and a great many of the fans. I recall quite clearly the exchanges on here being some of the most angry outside the admin and independence debates.

Owen Morrison I always thought was a wee fandan, but that was really just based on his general reeking attitude on the pitch and unmerited swagger. I've heard vague things about him but he was such an average player in a poor time for the club that I'm not too fussed.

I hardly post on here nowadays, but it's slightly troubling to read some of the stuff here being presented as fact with no corroboration other than the poster saying it's true. That's not aimed at anyone or any post in particular btw, more a commentary on the complete acceptance of these posts with no critical thought or questioning.

So, as Da-Go says, in the interests of balance, I'll repeat what I always say when this comes up.

1. SK has gone on record as saying he wasn't ready for this job and he got a lot wrong. His words. There was no mention of anyone undermining him even when prompted.

2. I've spoken to two senior players about this time, at length, and separately, one of whom I've known since school. He told me several things about decisions that were made, standard of training, and some of the things the players themselves had to do to keep up fitness-wise as the training was so poor.

The other player, backed up these statements, pretty much word for word, in a separate conversation over a year later. I've since had another conversation not too long ago, a full ten years later, with another player who also backed up what was said in his own words without prompting.

Of course there is two sides to every story, and it could be perceived that senior players were 'against him' but every single one of these guys are winners. All of them. You simply don't make it as a footballer if you wouldn't kick your granny to win a game, and so as senior players they are going to speak up if they disagree with the manager. Some of those players were repaid for trying to talk some sense into their manager with being dropped, with him telling people they were injured. On more than one occassion, they weren't.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. Personally, I'll continue to take the word of guys I've known a long time, who have told me the same things, separately, over the course of years, over some randoms on the internet.

Put it this way, for the way the circumstances were highlighted to me, it would be a conspiracy of epic proportions for them all to get their stories straight, to ensure they all kept up a lie, repeating the same story months and even years apart.

Stevie C just did a podcast - we'll hopefully get his career reflection part up imminently. I've also got plenty of interviews from various players for the Into the Valley research (Volume 2, 2005-2015 will be written one day, I promise!). From memory, there's nothing too controversial or scathing about Stephen Kenny - I think Scott Wilson was the most candid.

I think what we've got to remember is that a lot of these players gave several years to the Pars and performed in one of our best ever teams. They're not going to down tools the minute someone comes through the door because there's no reason for them to do so.

I think the truth is something like this. Kenny had ideas that worked well at Derry. The players had an idea of what worked well for them previously. Kenny was a young manager and didn't quite command the respect necessary to get the players to come round to his thinking. The results were poor, which causes both sides to believe more than ever before that they were right. Kenny, should, following relegation, have wielded the axe and got in some younger, hungrier guys who might have bought in to what he was trying to do. For whatever reason, this didn't happen - maybe lack of backing by the board, maybe the belief that the good results at the end of the SPL season would set us in good stead for our campaign in the Championship.

Things then turned to **** very quickly. There was a poor atmosphere all over the club, with fans torn on whether to back the manager or not. Kenny didn't know how to turn it around and, eventually, things got so bad that he had to go as there was a genuine worry that we'd be relegated to the 3rd tier and financial ruin (which we now know was in the post anyway).

Some players, thinking Kenny wasn't going to turn it around, perhaps weren't as professional as they could have been. On the one hand, that's extremely poor. On the other hand, they could argue that they needed a new guy at the helm to stop the inevitable slide.

The board had to sack Kenny as there's no other realistic course of action.

It will always be talked about though due to Kenny's exploits in Europe with Derry before us and Dundalk after. There's clearly an extremely good manager in there when given the right circumstances to carry out his work. We'll never know whether these circumstances could have been replicated at the Pars though - especially as he hasn't been an unmitigated success everywhere he's been e.g. Shamrock Rovers and, arguably, Bohemians.

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If I was in World War Two they'd call me spitfire

I’d like to echo the previous posters and pass on my sincere thanks to Rastapari, Steaua, Renegade Master and the others who have shed light on to the goings on. I always thought SK was a brilliant appointment and I’m glad that those who conspired against him, the club, and us fans have been exposed. I’m sure there’s a lot more that may yet come out but having only heard a few wee rumours with no names mentioned previously it’s enlightening to have this info. Stephen Kenny always struck me as a really decent person so if as a result of this, people’s perceptions of him are changed for the better, then hopefully that can be a small comfort to him too.

This thread has turned into a bit of a slagfest about two former Pars players in particular. My concern, which I voiced further up, is that a number of honest, hardworking pros, who played in that team would also be tarred with the same brush. This is exactly what's happened, with one poster going through Kenny's squad, looking for other likely candidates to add to the gang of two.

The candid interview by Stevie Crawford (thanks to Oz for flagging it up) shows that Kenny wasn't exactly a wise old head and far from the finished article. Stevie is/was quite philosophical about his dealings with the manager, but other senior players may not have been inclined to be so charitable. Kenny himself has admitted he wasn't ready for the job, but he will have learned a lot during his time at EEP, which helped to make him the better manager he is today.

My Pars-supporting pal once won 2 free tickets to an East Fife game and I went along with him, Nipper played for East Fife at the time and my pal grabbed him after warm up & got him to sign his Pars shirt. Nipper looked like he was going to punch his puss clean off his heed for asking... but maybe was just confused, maybe was "in the zone". Made me laugh at the time though!

JF, my pal played for East Fife at the same time. When I was getting married, Nipper went to East End and got a Pars strip signed by the full bunch that were there. Gave us the strip free as well. Thought it was a great gesture

Unlike most other professions, a young guy who takes over as a football manager has no formal training in management.

He will have the experience of years playing the game, watching other managers at work and he most likely will be pretty conversant with the coaching and tactical aspects of the job, but he is equally likely to have little or no inkling of just how complex a football manager's task can be. There's a whole lot more to consider.

As is illustrated quite well in the Stevie Crawford video interview, the player's interaction with the manager is through a pretty narrow prism; on the training ground, in the dressing room, at the match and in one-to-one meetings in the manager's office. As Stevie pointed out, the individual player doesn't really get to know how the manager deals with the other players at a personal level. His view is as part of a collective.

Football is one of those businesses where a manager has to deal with a wide range of personalities - from shy retiring types to wild demanding narcissists and everything in between.

And it is guaranteed that you will never ever have a harmonious work environment. There will perpetually be players pissed off because they have been dropped or are injured or are jealous because they think they are not getting paid as much as the player over there who is nowhere near as good as them.

It must be a daunting task for a young manager to undertake and the odds of making mistakes are surely very high. Leadership skills are obviously very important, but ultimately it is experience that makes the good manager. You can be sure that, at 46, Stephen Kenny will be a far more rounded manager than he was at 36 at Dunfermline.

As others have said, it is quite likely to have been a case of the right man at the wrong time.

That is so true, Oz, but you would have hoped the board took all these things into account when making the appointment.

Listening to Stevie Crawford's interview, one thing that came across to me was the lack of knowledge we fans have of what is going on behind the scenes yet we are so prepared to pass judgement without the full facts; for example players sometimes being asked to play when they aren't 100% fit.

And of course a lot of the senior professionals at the time would have been able to call his bluff from an early stage in regards to his methods.

We had guys who worked under folks like Watty Smith, Dick Advocaat, Tommy Burns, Bobby Robson etc so you could see them being more than a little suspect towards someone possibly trying to make so many changes. Doesn't make it right but i can see why.

Actually had a quick look at stats for that season and was genuinely surprised how many of the players you may have had in mind regarding the afore mentioned shennanigans played in well over 30+ games that season.

Either way it's very refreshing to read both sides to this, always interesting to hear. This normally crops up once or twice a year on here with the usual points and counter arguments made but this has been by far the most in-depth i've ever seen it covered especially without any admim interference so credit for that.

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"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."

This McIntyre thread has now turned into a Stephen Kenny thread. I used to cover the Pars for the press and really liked SK. You couldn't meet a nicer guy. On our first meeting I (jokingly) asked him what I should call him. Mr Kenny? No, he thought I was being serious and insisted I call him Stephen.
Always answered my calls too and I felt really sorry for him when we had to interrogate him after the Hamilton and Stirling Albion disasters.
Rumours at the time about players undermining him and I always felt the Pars should have given him more time to turn things around.

Exactly TAFKA. It's funny how the likes of Scott Thompson managed to play for, what was it, 8 different managers? Yet he's labelled as some kind of Machiavellian schemer who was undermining folk left, right and centre. The stuff about him being fat is laughable; no doubt the same folk will call Wayne Rooney etc fat too. Since leaving us, Kenny has had success and failure at different clubs but any time he's been interviewed he's mentioned the fact that he was too young and inexperienced, that he had no bad feelings about the club but that he feels it was a missed opportunity etc. He's never once said that players didn't want to play for him or undermined him, which he could have done even without naming names. He signed guys like Owen Morrison and Bobby Ryan who were awful, and he gave new contracts the guys who were apparently undermining him. I also think he underestimated the quality of the Scottish game - I remember he was asked how he'd compare the two leagues at the first Meet the manager night and between him and Declan (Docherty? Maybe? The assistant manager) they didn't seem to have much thought into it. I'm sure he's a better manager for the experience but to say that he was ahead of him time or something is beyond mental.

Aye, he talked a good game. I remember at one point he said that he wanted to hear the crowd and see flags etc and a clearly uncomfortable Craig Robertson had to whisper in his ear that we weren't allowed flags... another one of those mental decisions the old board took with little thought to why or how the fans would be affected!