I saw the tread on advantages to running on the treadmill so I thought I would start one for running outside.

Here are a few I thought of:

1. If you run an out and back course, it is much harder to quit. Once you get out there you have to come back!

2. I find it easier to run by feel.

3. When you run in adverse conditions, it increases your mental toughness, and when the weather is nice, you feel like a rock star!

4. vitamin D.

5. the hills are the real deal; the mental work is different actually running to the top compared to a treadmill.

Don't get me wrong, I run on my treadmill, but it will never replace running outside.

I like all of them, but I like option 3 the most because it represents a life lession that you can stare adversity in the face and look at it as an opportunity.This is one of the many reasons why I will never own a treadmill. And you could never give me one even if it came with 6 cup holders.

I don't fault anyone who's turning to the treadmill this winter if you live where it's being such a long winter! Man, I love where I am.

For me it's the difference between a workout and a recreation. Like gardening vs yardwork, babysitting one's kids vs hanging out with the family. Sure, sometimes I make it a workout, but whether I do or not, it's about escape, going somewhere, accomplishing something, people watching, fresh air, and seeing the world from much the same place, day after day, around the year.

From a race perspective, I'm gaining experience in how to handle different terrain, different snow or dirt conditions, different weather, etc - all things that can make race-day experience a little better (or have enough knowledge to know that I'd be in over my head).

I totally agree; I do both...they both have a different kind of mental toughness.

Agreed. Look, I'm like Fuzzy. I prefer to run outside but I'd rather hit the treadmill and get in my speedwork than jog at an insanely slow pace on icy roads. The tough choices in life are not choices between good and bad but between two goods or two bads. To me, the choice between jogging at a 10:00 or slower pace to avoid busting my bum vs. getting in a hard speed session on the treadmill weighs in favor of getting on the mill. Now, if you're talking about getting on the mill and running for an hour at the same speed, oh hell. Just shoot me now.

Short Term Goal - 17:59 5K

Medium Term Goal - 2:54:59 marathon

Long Term Goal - To have been a runner half my life (I started at age 45)

Seeing people motivates me. Last week I ran along the Boston course as I will today and must have seen a few hundred runners. There are many runners there year round but it peaks in late March. At least 2 sponsors were smart enough to have water stops.

Running with people motivates me as I try to do my long runs. Running side by side on a tm, and talking to a friend I have done before but outdoors is better.

Since this winter has been brutal up here I have spent a lot of time on the mill lately. Dad and I run side by side and talk each other through our runs. It makes it easier that we have a training plan to follow and that we are together. I am hoping march is kinder and we can head outside for the majority of our future runs. Today is 11 miles on the mill, which I have done before, but we are approaching 15 and I think that would be torture on a mill!

I saw the tread on advantages to running on the treadmill so I thought I would start one for running outside.

Here are a few I thought of:

1. If you run an out and back course, it is much harder to quit. Once you get out there you have to come back!

2. I find it easier to run by feel.

3. When you run in adverse conditions, it increases your mental toughness, and when the weather is nice, you feel like a rock star!

4. vitamin D.

5. the hills are the real deal; the mental work is different actually running to the top compared to a treadmill.

Don't get me wrong, I run on my treadmill, but it will never replace running outside.

While I agree with the fact that I love running outside more than a treadmill, there are still advantages to the treadmill.

I'll start with the obvious bad weather one. I am in awe of people who run in snow/ice/wind/sub zero temps. I am in awe because I do not get it. Sorry, but I can get my mental toughness elsewhere. I'm going to speak from experience here... once you've fallen and broken something, there are no do-overs. It's broken. You've got to heal. You will be sidelined for a while. No thanks.

Vitamin D - - okay sounds reasonable. But what about sunburn and skin cancer? Goes right along with all that sunshine.

The "harder to quit outside" thing just doesn't apply to me. I don't quit on a treadmill or outside. I'll go the distance in both cases.

I'm with you.... I'm thankful for my treadmill. It gives me the opportunity to run all winter long, no matter what. And I'm still tough!

Anyone familiar with my training knows I ran my highest mileage [100+ mile weeks] during the Winter months which mostly consisted of running on the treadmill. I believe I was able to achieve decent race results from that, so that's not really the issue for me. And while I agree that forcing yourself to run high mileage on the treadmill builds a certain mental toughness I always found I couldn't wait to get off that damn thing and run outside. An outside of my Winter phase I probably ran on it 2-3 times the rest of the year [for hills or severe weather - lightning].

After 4-5 years of this I realized that despite the advantages I found the activity a mindless and depressing way to spent what I otherwise love to do - run. So this Winter I cancelled my gym membershp, so I would have no other opinion but to run outdoors. Unfortunately I picked one of the worst years to do that [weather-wise] but due to a variety of setbacks that hasn't really impacted my training. As far as impacting quality workouts, with a little scouting I've been able to find a few stretches of sidewalk that are always clear around the Ohio State campus to do speedwork or just settle for a fartlek workout as I do pick ups inbetween the snow / ice. I wouldn't say it's ideal but here's the thing I always begin and end those workouts smiling, something I very rarely did entering or existing the gym.

If you can't stand the thought of running on the treadmill, wouldn't forcing yourself to run on the treadmill build more mental toughness than anything else? Hmmmm.

I don't believe either of my threads said I did not like the treadmill. I didn't know this was going to become a debate about my training habits.

But if I must defend myself, I pulled my hip out of place last month. So yes, my slow paces outside have been slow, and I haven't been doing any endurance on the treadmill lately. I've been getting better, but it takes time. Last week, I did 20minx3 on the treadmill varying the speed all over the place (not very structured).

Today, I decided impromptu to do some endurance on the treadmill (hmmmm....wonder why). I was going to wait longer to let breakfast digest but decided I didn't care (it wasn't like I was going to run fast).

Here is what I did:

6@6.3 slowing to 5.5 for another .25/ i also walked another .25

took water break and changed shirts (I sweat a lot)

1.75@6 and .25 mile walk

took another water break

.25@7 just for fun...slowing down to 5.5 increasing back up to 6.something... for another 1.05

finished walking another .45

total 9.3 run and .95 walk

The entire time, I had to remind myself to run tall. My hip flexors felt weak the entire time. When I did adjust my form, it was easier to keep running.

For what it is worth I googled hip flexors and the treadmill and came up with this from

Studies consistently show that on a treadmill there is over-activity of the hip flexors and calves, and under activity of the gluteal (buttocks) muscles. On the treadmill you become the “hamster on the wheel”, basically just keeping up with the speed of the belt rolling under you. This can create altered muscle recruitment patterns that lead to an injury once you return to running outside. Common overuse injuries with this situation include calf strains and Achilles tendinitis, proximal (high) hamstring tendinitis, IT band syndrome, and knee pain.

I had to ignore the will to stop the entire time I was on the treadmill. My body knew my hip flexors were weak and was trying to tell me to stop before I sustained another injury. I feel fine right now and considering my mileage is well under last week, I will bounce back fine from today's run.

ps. I am doing strength training for my hip flexors

Feel free to let me know if there is anything else I need to defend. If this is overkill, well, that's how I roll!

Anyone familiar with my training knows I ran my highest mileage [100+ mile weeks] during the Winter months which mostly consisted of running on the treadmill. I believe I was able to achieve decent race results from that, so that's not really the issue for me. And while I agree that forcing yourself to run high mileage on the treadmill builds a certain mental toughness I always found I couldn't wait to get off that damn thing and run outside. An outside of my Winter phase I probably ran on it 2-3 times the rest of the year [for hills or severe weather - lightning].

After 4-5 years of this I realized that despite the advantages I found the activity a mindless and depressing way to spent what I otherwise love to do - run. So this Winter I cancelled my gym membershp, so I would have no other opinion but to run outdoors. Unfortunately I picked one of the worst years to do that [weather-wise] but due to a variety of setbacks that hasn't really impacted my training. As far as impacting quality workouts, with a little scouting I've been able to find a few stretches of sidewalk that are always clear around the Ohio State campus to do speedwork or just settle for a fartlek workout as I do pick ups inbetween the snow / ice. I wouldn't say it's ideal but here's the thing I always begin and end those workouts smiling, something I very rarely did entering or existing the gym.

outside. definitely. even thru this crazy winter. been the best when its only me braving it, in a snowstorm or bounding thru a snowy forest trail. i like the quiet...the escape from just too much going on inside any place.

our local gym is waaay crowded again after all the "newly resolved" members have joined, 24-7 and it's waaay to stimmy in there, with 10+screens, bground music, and chatty chatty teens who found a new spot to hang before and after school. (god, i sound old. but when you're waiting to get on a bike and there's a 16year old girl on it, barely pedaling but TEXTING as she watches the tv? c'MON, kid! )

but outside, am or pm, i can go where i want, as long or as short as i want, and shut off the lights and noise. take a screen break. and i'd do it all over again next crazy winter. btw...running on xmas eve night, thru a lantered neighborhood was amazing. one of the best gifts of the season. :-)

i feel like someone just gave me a brand new 10 speed bike — and it's just my feet!

I have no access to a treadmill, mainly because I am too cheap to get a gym membership. I am forced to run outside or not at all. Even though this is one the colder winters (although snowfall is below average), the only 2 runs I have missed were due to sickness. I have run more this winter than probably the last 2 or 3 combined. I have run in negative temps for the first time, and in 6"+ snow. It makes my confidence soar knowing I literally plowed through some tough runs in the dark depths of winter.

If you can't stand the thought of running on the treadmill, wouldn't forcing yourself to run on the treadmill build more mental toughness than anything else? Hmmmm.

I don't think the kind of mental toughness built by running on a treadmill is applicable to races. Races aren't boring.

I generally side-eye the whole concept of 'mental toughness' as it is tossed about on these forums. Sports where I find mental toughness to be an issue are (for example) mountain biking and rock climbing, where one might be physically able to make cruxy moves but too psyched out by the possibility of falling to try. Running is just putting one foot in front of the other. Racing is putting one foot in front of the other when it's uncomfortable or painful. Not wanting to push the physical discomfort threshold isn't lack of mental toughness - it's lack of physical toughness.

Toughness is going out when you don't want to, but feel you have to. The reward is that feeling when you are done, knowing that you did something most people don't have the toughness for. Sometimes just getting on the treadmill is tough also, so it's really all just relative.

Consider that the majority of people you know don't even consider running at all, their reward after a hard day of strolling the cube farm is a big dinner and the couch.

If you can't stand the thought of running on the treadmill, wouldn't forcing yourself to run on the treadmill build more mental toughness than anything else? Hmmmm.

I don't think the kind of mental toughness built by running on a treadmill is applicable to races. Races aren't boring.

I generally side-eye the whole concept of 'mental toughness' as it is tossed about on these forums. Sports where I find mental toughness to be an issue are (for example) mountain biking and rock climbing, where one might be physically able to make cruxy moves but too psyched out by the possibility of falling to try. Running is just putting one foot in front of the other. Racing is putting one foot in front of the other when it's uncomfortable or painful. Not wanting to push the physical discomfort threshold isn't lack of mental toughness - it's lack of physical toughness.

I might use "confidence" rather than "mental toughness" in your example. It's built from experience and training.

Scanning through these two threads (outside, tm), I think I've seen some references like tough, macho, martyr, whatever. It may seem that way to an outside observer or to someone in their first year or two of cold, snowy running. But one learns. And what was once questionable days just become the proverbial "another day at the office."

Many of my friends do the winter ultras - either on foot or on bike. (notice: I didn't say I did them, but we're starting to get some more races in the 3-5 hr range, at my speeds) They train in just about anything nature throws at them since they need to know how to handle it when they're 150 miles from the trailhead and 200 miles yet to go in the race.

Some of us biked or walked to work. You just put on appropriate layers and go. Nothing macho about it. Running is just another step.

This is some newspaper coverage from 2014. (The guy in the picture is a good friend of mine and great guy. He runs some of the same trails I do, but much faster. More importantly, he had to walk some of those same hills when he started. But he worked at it until he could run them. Now see where he runs.)

This is last year's race to show the difference that snow makes in race. The reporter Craig Medred follows the races on snow machine in real life, but also checks in on the FB page. How many places have your local news guy reporting live on ultras?

This is the dog race about to restart on Sunday. Much of what Zack talks about for Iditarod rookies is the same for rookie runners in winter. That should be a good series to follow.

MTA: I recognize the value of a tm as a tool for training and rehab after surgery, but I also recognize its limitations, esp. with respect to hilly trails. If we had a fitness center near me with a 5 or 10-punch pass card, I'd consider getting one (I looked a number of years ago). The nearest tm that I'm aware of are about 8-12 mi away, and not sure of pricing. If it's too bad to run out my door or on a trail, I'm sure as heck not gonna drive that far in hazardous road conditions just to run a little. I leave the roads to the first responders. I've got some stepup stuff, hand weights, etc that I can use or take a rest day.

If you can't stand the thought of running on the treadmill, wouldn't forcing yourself to run on the treadmill build more mental toughness than anything else? Hmmmm.

I don't think the kind of mental toughness built by running on a treadmill is applicable to races. Races aren't boring.

I generally side-eye the whole concept of 'mental toughness' as it is tossed about on these forums. Sports where I find mental toughness to be an issue are (for example) mountain biking and rock climbing, where one might be physically able to make cruxy moves but too psyched out by the possibility of falling to try. Running is just putting one foot in front of the other. Racing is putting one foot in front of the other when it's uncomfortable or painful. Not wanting to push the physical discomfort threshold isn't lack of mental toughness - it's lack of physical toughness.

That's what speedwork does, it callus' the body to discomfort, the sting of effort as we approach our physical limits. But I also believe it conditions our consciousness on how to react in competition. When you're just starting out you really don't know where the edge is and sometimes you run a notch or two below it, not because you're unable to push yourself harder but perhaps for the same reason you gave for adventure athletes - fear.

The more you associate with pushing your limits, in training or competition, the less intimidating it becomes. At least that's been my experience. I used to hate 5ks until I started doing longer intervals so race pace felt just like or very similar to another [speed] workout. For intermediate runners, or advanced runners the fine tuning portion of it, the purpose of the race schedule is to introduce, associate and extend the discomfort you'll face race day.

I like the idea of recasting this as 'confidence'. That also takes the (unwarranted, IMO) 'macho' edge away, as AK suggests; for example, my run yesterday in snow and slush doesn't prove I was any tougher or mas macho than someone who opted for the treadmill. What it does show is that I have the confidence in my gear to know that e.g. the Smartwool socks will keep my feet warm even though they were soaked through pretty much instantly, and my combination of jacket and short-sleeved soft tech tee kept my upper body fairly dry and warm without overheating. And of course that confidence was built through experience - obviously the more you run in bad weather, the better you are at evaluating what it will take to be comfortable, just as the more you race, the better you are at evaluating how well you can push the pace.

But I don't think that they are cross-applicable. That is, going out and running in the snow is not going to help you push your limits while racing - unless, of course, you're racing in the snow!

I really believe that running outside has cut down on my injuries... Running on the treadmill is just repetition-the same thing over and over again. If you have any bio-mechanical issues with your legs or gait, this is repeated for the duration of the run. Outside, the hills and slant of your path make you constantly adjust how you run and hit your body in different ways.

At least that's what I feel--I have been much healthier running outside.

Plus, when I run outside people can stare at me for having shorts on while it is in the 30's and there are snow drifts!