Boycott The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism

When you receive an autism diagnosis, where do you go for information and support? Many of us go to the internet and spend countless hours frantically researching everything we can about autism and how to support our child. At some point, most of us will find our way to a site called The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism. It seems like a great resource with a lot of information about how to respectfully support your child.

And they are. Or, at least, they used to be. What started out as a place for autistic adults and autism parents to meet and share stories and ideas, as well as provide a unique, autism-centered viewpoint, has devolved into a place that is no longer welcoming of parents and is, in fact, hostile toward parents. It has morphed into a bastion for militant, angry autistic adults to run roughshod over others and insult parents and even other autistic adults that do not tow the line of their propaganda.

Many of us have watched the change take place over the last few years. And some of us have been at the receiving end of the vitriol that is allowed to be hurled at anyone offering a slightly different viewpoint. The most recent example just took place Sunday, when a discussion on their Facebook page about how evil and harmful ABA therapy is turned into a parent-bashing forum after a parent commented that they had found some positive benefits from ABA, and that they closely monitor to make sure it’s not done in a punitive way. One of the most repetitively hostile autistic adults, Kassianne Sibley, chooses to put the parent in her place by invoking the name of a parent that recently tried to commit suicide and take her daughter with her. (comments by other participants have been removed as a courtesy and have no bearing on the following remarks)

Sadly, this is not an isolated incident. Kassianne was formerly a moderator for their site, and this kind of friction was a regular occurrence. While she is no longer a moderator, she is still allowed to actively engage others by comparing them to parents that have committed, or attempted to commit, murder. And we are endlessly reminded that she was allegedly abused as a child, and we’re expected to provide her an open forum to dictate how and what autism advocacy should look like. If you happen to point out the obvious, that she is allowed to castigate people at will, well then you will get banned.

Oh stop it, I had to have some fun with it.

In short, a site that was once a communal home for those in the autism community is now a place for militant, angry, and short-sighted adult autistics, where no other viewpoints are allowed to be discussed. If you do not agree wholeheartedly with their rhetoric, you are removed. It’s more than a little ironic that a group that came together so that autistics would have a voice, now does not allow anyone else to have a voice.

One could surmise that the group just does not accept parents and the point-of-view they offer. However, I know first-hand of an autistic adult that served on their board, who was ostracized by several people. When this person spoke up about it, she was bullied further until she finally left the board. So it doesn’t even matter if you are autistic, the bottom line is that if you don’t agree completely with their propaganda, then you will be harangued until you leave.

This is the very same group that boycotts Autism Speaks for not listening to autistic voices, yet they shout down anyone whose opinion is different from their own. They hate people for stereotyping autistic people, but they stereotype parents, and even go so far as to use the name of a parent charged with murder when disagreeing with a parent. That tactic is as ugly and hateful as someone using the name Adam Lanza in disagreement with an autistic person.

And you know what? All of this is okay. It’s their site, it’s their place to do whatever they want to do. The issue is when their site is made to seem like a collaborative and welcoming group. And the issue is that their group has gained enough credibility to be cited by different pages as some kind of authority in regard to autism.

What they don’t realize is that they have become part of the very problem they say they’re trying to combat. They want autistics to have a voice, to be taken seriously, to be considered competent and equal. And they try and accomplish that by silencing others, bullying, and ostracizing. They have damaged their own cause and don’t realize how many people can clearly see it. But this approach has a way of writing its own destiny, and solidifying a cause in the annals of history as one that never got off the ground because of its faulty methodology.

One friend recently came to me and made this comparison: “trying to learn about autism from the people at TPGA is like trying to learn about Islam from the Taliban.”

My hope is that parents that are just discovering the autism community don’t find this site and think that it is representative of the entire autism community. It’s not. There are actually groups of autistic individuals and parents that are respectful to one another. The trick is finding them in the endless sea of the internet. Maybe, just maybe a group of people will come together to form a new group that offers the real sense of community that TPGA used to.

Until then, I’ll be boycotting their page. It’s not the kind of short-sighted, hostile, and negative group that I want taking up space in my life, or influencing my child. And clearly they don’t want me, or many other parents. Luckily there are many other positive role models out there to choose from, like John Elder Robison or Holly Robinson Peete (who is not autistic, but has an autistic child).

And I hope and pray that new parents find their way to more supportive places.

EDIT: I want you all to know that an advocate was kind enough to stop by and leave the following comment for me. I have no idea who Leslie is. She must be running whatever site this person is talking about by herself. If you are Leslie, please contact me and identify yourself.

“you’re not boycotting TPGA. You were BANNED. So it is not a matter of until they do anything. It is a matter of you’re not welcome.

Probably because you’re cruel.

Probably because you habitually disrespect Autistic people.

Yeah, you’re Autistic. I know. I remember when you pulled that one out of thin air at the most opportune time. Not saying you’re not Autistic. Am saying you don’t get to use it as a weapon and maintain credibility.

You and Kassiane are both aggressive and profane. I’ve got zero problem with that (except for your hypocrisy). But the true differences between the two of you are that Kassiane is: right, genuinely kind, and brave. Where you have consistently proven yourself to be: wrong, cruel, and a coward.

Nice job you and Leslie and Jill did with that Autistic hate blog and phony facebook spoof accounts a while back by the way. You’re a bunch of hateful bullies and oh so much like your pal Kelli Stapleton.”

You can see the post at the bottom down there.

Oh wait, I forgot to mention that it was most likely Beth Ryan that left this lovely nugget. Take a look at my stat counter:

You’ll notice it’s the same URL as the comment, which originates in Vermont, as does Beth Ryan. See, I can prove it:

Thanks for stopping by, Beth. For THREE HOURS. Weirdo.

Also, thanks for proving my point. I appreciate it.

Edit #2: It seems as though my special reader, Sandy (from Texas), is hellbent on having me post the entire TPGA thread. The reason it was edited down was simply to remove extraneous information and prevent this from being the longest post in the history of blogging. But for Sandy, I will add it on here to the bottom. I do not have the time or proper program to edit out all names and identifying information. Sandy has asked for unedited documentation, and so it shall be.

Yes, yes, and more yes. They were once something so wonderful. They were breaking stereotypes when nobody else was, they educated when nobody else did, we all told our stories; we were a team. I loved them, their book (which I am in), their blog, and their editors. I bought t-shirts and mugs. But then they slowly became this nightmarish clusterfuck of hate and it’s SUCH a shame. A few months ago I asked Shannon to remove my 2 pieces from their blog and my name from their list of contributors, because I do not want to be associated with them in any way. I haven’t been to their FB page since and I will never recommend anything they publish. It’s just plain sad.

I can’t agree with you on this post and it surprises me. I only follow their blog. Comment threads on fb, twitter and YouTube are not what interests me as people seem to spill vitriol gratitiously on any subject.
On the subject of ABA, i have little to say myself as I believe perspectives are perverted by personal experiences on both sides. And I have no experience with it at all. In short, I understand parents are trying it and there are very different forms of ABA around nowadays (way different than what would have to be practice 10, 20 years ago I should suppose?), but I also get and want to acknowledge the pain and anger of adults autistics who have gone through it. Yes, even the angry ones can teach us a lot, I believe.
I think it’s sad if their attitude towards parents seems generally hostile to you but I do not see how a boycott of the site (which I still believe delivers valuable information), and further hostilities here contribute to reduce the already massive divide(s) that run through what is just not a very homogeneous “community”….
What a shame.

The photo at the bottom that says “I’ve been running late for my appointment with you all day” refers to the person going to bed. The photo is of a bed. The bed has been cut off the photo. Not sure how this got to be the person being “weird.” I only am reading this blog post because someone tagged me to come over and look at it. I don’t usually read this one.

it’s been a long time since I’ve made my way back to that site since my own unpleasantness. I think the idea of getting more active participation from autistic self advocates was a good one. The right one even…but their actual selection left a lot to be desired.

I’ve managed to stay out of the cross-hairs primarily by giving up my seat at the table. And honestly, It’s the best decision I’ve made…I no longer have to try to be an ally or a friend or whatever…I can just focus on my own child and leave the vitriol and rhetoric behind. Maybe I’m no longer able to positively influence “the community” but at least I’m not bringing that bullshit drama home to my family at night.

I’ve thought a lot about what autistic adults who have no children have to offer me regarding parenting my autistic child, and that is simply…nothing. And it’s frightening to say that, because I can hear the shrieks of “bigot!” and “check your privilege” from here. But I too remember when I had all the amazing parenting insights in the world to share with parents. How best to do everything. How to discipline. How to nurture. It was when I also had no kids. I was just as ignorant then as they are now of what “parenting” means. I was never more passionate and convinced of my righteousness than I was when I didn’t have a clue.

There’s no job I’ll ever have that touches the importance of parenting. There’s no responsibility higher than that of raising my child. No decision more heartbreaking than having to pick the lesser of two evils. No fear more chilling than sending a nonverbal child off on “faith” in the kindness of strangers.

That is not to say these autistic adults don’t offer me amazing insights into what my daughter might be feeling or experiencing, and I can definitely use that help to better raise her…but please…no more parenting advice from adults, many of whom are only a few years removed from childhood themselves, who have never had to be responsible for raising their own child.

Autistic parents? I welcome your insights. Other than that I’m out of the ‘community’.

Jim. That was very well put. I wish many on the spectrum who don’t have kids would consider that they may have advice but it’s without experience. If you are on the spectrum and have kids your advice comes with so much more. Thank you for posting your message. I’m glad I read the comments. Blessings. And happy new year

Omg, I’ve only skimmed this post but so far I FREAKING LOVE IT. You stated your points very concisely, and Leigh was SO VERY CLASSY in her responses. And then there was Jill. But, you know. It’s Jill….

I recommend everyone to read that post. It has some actual thought about the different perspectives we all live in rather than just ad persona attacks and more comment flaming.
Seriously?! What the actual F..?
I am definitively out of here.
So.much.hate.

I’m glad to know I wasn’t the only one that felt that way. I feel, as a parent, that we can’t do anything right on that board. I used to refer everyone to it, but no longer. I’m not an autism speaks fan either, but there has to be a place that can view good science/therapeutic options and have the opinion of both those with autism and their caregivers alike.

It’s just so sad that parents will go there, looking for support, and be vilified, abused, second guess themselves. Each time I’ve ever visited that site, I’ve been left feeling 2 things: afraid that my child could end up so angry and cruel to others in the name of self-advocacy, and really grateful that she’s nothing like those people. Their Autism is so very different from my child’s, that I question their creds. I do. And boycott that page? Girrrrrl, I’ve been doing that for months and strangely, I feel a lot better about it.

Please, please… do not question whether someone is autistic based on his or ability to type or express herself well in writing. I have a test-ceiling verbal IQ but I have definite disability. It doesn’t show right away, but spend a day with me and you will KNOW. I’m 26; people generally think I’m 16. I understand that our autism may be different. That’s because we’re adults. Also, of course, each person is unique. But it’s deeply upsetting when I know someone doesn’t believe I “really” get it based on my ability to type. It’s simply that– my ability to type. It says absolutely nothing about my autism symptoms.

I read through that all the other day, and I cannot believe YOU were the one banned!!! YOU didn’t say anything bad!!!! I was never a giant fan of that page, anyway. Just bc someone is autistic doesn’t meant they know it all, or can’t just be plain wrong. Wow.

Thank you. I think Shannon Squid’s labeling and enabling bullshit has been turning people away for a long time, but people have held back because they still like Emily and/or Jennifer.

It’s one thing to ensure that every voice is heard, but SR has no qualms with handing the mic to complete assholes, letting them shut down people that know their shit, don’t back down, know how to engage in civil discussions. Her in-house trolls are at hand to do the flogging for her– people don’t come there to be enlightened, they come there to fight or defend. And for what? A safe place to perseverate, for sport? To defend the perfumed enclave against all comers? To protect the doctrinal bastion of the abused angeratti?

With Shannon at the helm, the Thinking Person’s Guide has devolved into the Angry Inflexible Authoritarian’s Guide, as the main voices featured are the coddled, angry, and unproductive ones that have already made up their minds but are ready to wage bloody flaming begrudging hell over any given subjective topic, whether they are qualified to speak on it or not. Shannon has let them take over the discussion intentionally, she has no objectivity, and is unfit to fairly moderate anything.

Agree, Shannon comes across as an angry, bitter bitch of a woman. She has a GIANT chip on her shoulder and it shows. I honestly think her bitterness stems from the fact she was a pregnant teen, gave up her kid and often has tantrums on her personal blog complaining how the adoptive father refuses to tell the son about her. Can’t blame him. That woman is a freakin’ weirdo and so is the rest of her odd family. Wouldn’t let my kid near them either! All her anger overflows into everything else in her life IMO.

I just want to say that I am so grateful that when I took to the interwebs to find a community during my son’s diagnosis process that I ended up where I did. You and all the other bloggers that I follow (too many to name here) never make me feel bad about anything. At the most, you give me a different opinion to consider. Thank you all for being so accepting and awesome.

I feel like you wrote this for me..me..and only meee! But I know you wrote it for all of us and that’s ok too :) We need to learn from each other and this militant attitude towards the people who are raising the next generation of society need to stop being forced into isolation and criticized. Enough is enough, we need a freedom march! We all need to get along.

Ugh. Talk about perpetuating stereotypes. What I come away from this is, Oh, Kassianne, like many autistic people, has difficulty communicating because she is unable to see any other viewpoint but her own. Also, perseverance much?

This kind of close minded thinking is evident in most people who cling to extreme viewpoints, autistic or not, isn’t it?

I couldn’t agree more. You have my full support. I have personally been the target of vicious attacks at the hands of the Thinking Persons Guide to Autism. My crime was trying to express that while they are entitled to their views, I’m entitled to mine.

The personal attacks went on for days.

We are so much more likely to accomplish positive things by wworking together than we are If we lower ourselves to the standard of this organization.

If I can help, please let me know. I’ve shared this post and I have your back.

Also well put. I’ve read your blog before. I’m actually shocked that many of you were attacked on autism page. The people listing that they were attacked is shocking. Mostly because I know the calaber of the writing. The view points that are often expressed and so on. I’m glad many of you have moved on to more productive sites and have continued to advocate in more positive ways. Keep up that, it’s obviously greatly needed when this other influence lurks about in the autism community.

Thank you for saying what needed to be said. I cringe when I see parents new to autism stumble in there and get slaughtered. If someone asks how make their child stop flapping, explain why the question needs to be reformed. Explain the importance of stimming. Educate them and invite them back. And hope they do, you know? Otherwise, just rename it for the audience you really want present.

you’re not boycotting TPGA. You were BANNED. So it is not a matter of until they do anything. It is a matter of you’re not welcome.

Probably because you’re cruel.

Probably because you habitually disrespect Autistic people.

Yeah, you’re Autistic. I know. I remember when you pulled that one out of thin air at the most opportune time. Not saying you’re not Autistic. Am saying you don’t get to use it as a weapon and maintain credibility.

You and Kassiane are both aggressive and profane. I’ve got zero problem with that (except for your hypocrisy). But the true differences between the two of you are that Kassiane is: right, genuinely kind, and brave. Where you have consistently proven yourself to be: wrong, cruel, and a coward.

Nice job you and Leslie and Jill did with that Autistic hate blog and phony facebook spoof accounts a while back by the way. You’re a bunch of hateful bullies and oh so much like your pal Kelli Stapleton.

It is a big stretch to go from Vermont to, “this has to be Beth Ryan.” But I’m not hiding. And it is certainly NOTHING that I haven’t said publicly in the past.

Please excuse my typo. I meant Lexi not Leslie.

And, before you go casting stones about those that don’t post under their actual names, I would do a little bit of thinking about what you three have posted on my blog in the past anonymously. Telling me to kill myself. Think back to the comments you’ve made about eugenics. Etc. Just because I didn’t publish them, doesn’t mean they aren’t sitting in my “unapproved” folder with….shock…URLs in the exact towns where some of you live. Shall I provide those screen shots for you to post?

As far as “three hours”, if you think any mother of two young children has the time to sit at the computer looking at your nastiness for three plus hours,… I suppose you’ve never heard of leaving a browser open.

Standing by, every single word I wrote. Not hiding. Nothing I haven’t said before. You lot are a nasty bunch and you’ve hurt people that I love a few too many times. You’re little boycott of TPGA is cute. Good luck with that.

Looks like I made a huge leap to the right conclusion, Beth. Thank you for proving my point, AGAIN. And yes, I would like to see a comment I made with my URL, although there are several bloggers in my area, Beth. But still, send it. I’m curious. And it’s really sad that you think we have nothing better to do that host fake blogs. None of us are those kind of people, Beth.

I like how you’re willing to publicly name me because of “Vermont” but you’re going to pass off any IP address in your town as “lots of bloggers around here.”

Before I go screen shooting crazy, are you going to post them if I send them? If you’re not, I won’t bother. First check with your friends in Port Orchard and Berkley and remind them of screen names of “your blog sucks” and “sad panda.”

And I have seen with my own eyes, what I know for sure that you are capable of. So I don’t believe it is a matter of having the time or having nothing better to do. I believe that it is a matter of character. Do I have “proof” that you are behind the hate blogs/fb pages? No more than you had than Vermont=Beth.

You aren’t going to bully or intimidate me. I’m sitting on the same side of the power/privilege dynamic (which you all are so fond of dismissing) as you. Do I think it would be better if we could all work together? You betcha. But that’s not going to happen without some serious shifts in perspective.

As for the prison comments, I’ve never been. But I believe that your buddy Kelli might be in the position to offer the kind of perspective your looking for on that.

Anyhow, I came here, not to troll. Well maybe…if you call supporting a friend trolling. I’ve said nothing new. Nothing I haven’t said very publicly elsewhere so calling me a coward on those grounds fails to pass logic. I don’t like how you, collectively, treat my friends. You want to talk about coming together as a community and working together and all that good stuff? How about you make the first step and communicate to and about them in a more positive and less dismissive way?

I’m done here unless you are going to agree to post the screenshots. If you’ve got a sincere interest in working collaboratively, you obviously know how to contact me given all of your cute screen caps above.

If you really have screen shots of something I’ve done, why don’t YOU post them?

I’ve been more than nice, given your accusations, but the fact is you’re batshit fucking crazy. I didn’t make any crazy blog. I shared the link when I saw it, but I didn’t make it. You just go on being nuts. You’re not capable of working with rational, logical people. Good luck with your advocacy.

Oh, also? You keep pointing out that I made a leap that it was you when, in fact, IT WAS FUCKING YOU. So not really a leap at all, but a fact. That you confirmed. I’m embarrassed for you. And the other advocates with a shred of dignity are hanging their heads in shame at your nonsense.

You know, it’s really sad that you can’t write something on your own blog and not have the troll climb out from under the bridge and attack. I thought this was really well written and having been the victim (several times) of personal and unprovoked attacks by this organization, I know for a fact that this is a problem..

I don’t understand why they don’t see how much of a disservice they are doing to Autism Awareness and the Autism Community as a whole. Everyone is accountable for their actions and being Autism is not an excuse to be mean, hateful and nasty to people.

When Adult Autistics carry on in this fashion, it’s no wonder that they have a hard time finding the respect they are seeking.

Okay, in all seriousness….. I have to say, actually, Beth, that the fact you came here to support your friend, and you were the only one from your crew who did; that takes guts, so I retract my previous statement about you being a coward. Now that we know who you are. And speaking of knowing who you are, I actually don’t know who you are, but I’ve heard about you as being “that person” who blogs *about* people, instead of trying to talk directly to them. I’ve always had a problem with people who do that, and I do recall referring to you in a post I wrote back in September on just that point, because you had written a hit piece about me. Oh, it was published on TPGA, wasn’t it? Hmmm.

Anyway… it’s New Year’s Eve, I’ve been drinking, and we should all be celebrating with our families instead of wasting our time on the internet, but… just one more thing…. As a general impression, it seems to me that you take a lot of joy in the fact that our friend tried to kill herself. I find that troubling. But I’m always happy to have a conversation about these things, or at least try, so feel free to contact me any time! jillsmo@gmail.com

I have to admit, I kind of admire Beth’s technique. You be as batshit fucking crazy as you possibly can, and then people will respect you. Like they do in prison. Do you think Beth learned that in prison?

I’ve stayed quiet about you for far too long. You’re a horrible human being. What kind of person goes after someone’s blog and writes such horrible shit without knowing the person, the reasons, or anything behind what she says? You’re judgmental, and probably just insane. You feel like you’re entitled to say such things about another human but don’t realize that for a godddamn second that they speak more of you than they do of me. They show you to be a hateful, vindictive troll.

The good news? No one listens to you. They don’t. People don’t want to go to blogs that are as hateful and WRONG as yours (talk about hypocrisy- your blog is named “love explosions” are you fucking kidding me? were you trying to be ironic there?). Do you think parents are going to listen to a fucking thing you have to say? You try to silence honesty and authenticity under the very misconstrued banner of advocacy. Fine. I don’t advocate for you. I advocate for parents who are having a hard time. Parents who are honest and searching for some reality and some hope. Parents who want to learn that they are not alone.

Your blog? Yeah, except for the handful of pitch-fork wielding vigilantes does not reach out to anyone. It doesn’t bring hope or even understanding. I had never heard from you until I got a WHOPPING six hits from your site. Six.

At the end of the day, who does the real work here? You shouting into your hate-filled echo chamber, or me who is trying to help parents rather than condemn them for feeling human emotions. Sorry, we’re not all psychopaths like you.

And about Kelli. You use her name like it’s your ace in the hole. It’s not. You go to that place because you know that talking about her in such a way will inflict the most pain. Again, that says more about me than it does you. Only people who are at there very core unhappy, seek to bring about the most pain in people they disagree with. If you weren’t so goddamn unhappy, you’d try to have a conversation. A discussion about ways we are more alike than different, and a discourse on the differences that doesn’t result in the kind of bullshit you write.

I hope that this year you find a really great therapist or maybe even an inpatient facility. Until then, fuck off, Beth.

So instead of coming here for a dialogue, you came to attack and accuse? Awesome. Talk about slinging mud. I’m curious, do you have any information or solid facts on which you base these accusations or are you just blowing smoke out of your bum? Inquiring minds want to know.

Feel free to come back with solid proof, until then you are no better than the smoke and hot air being strewn out your butt.

Here’s what I’ve learned: When you can’t attack the argument, attack the person. Go after them in the worst way you can think of. It shows how intellectual you are. Or just that you’re super pissed because you’re wrong and being wrong sucks a lot.

What, exactly, was cruel about what Flannery said to Kassiane? All she said was “Oh, look, it’s the Kassiane show.” Did you take part in that discussion? Because it so totally was the Kassiane show, and she was being exceedingly cruel and dismissive of every single person on that thread who even hinted that they might not agree with every single syllable Kassiane wrote. Leigh was supremely polite on that thread, probably even more than she should have been, and all K could do was compare her and all parents to Kelli Stapleton. How is that any different than comparing an autistic adult to one who has gone on a shooting spree?

Kassiane is most definitely aggressive and profane. I have valued some of what she has said before, because as aggressive as it was, I knew I could learn from her point of view, but no more. I am tired of having just a one-sided argument on TGPA and I am sick of seeing the admins liberally moderating in a way that bans parents but allows people like K to say whatever she wants.

I really love Marlow with my whole heart. She doesn’t know how much I know about her. I haven’t let it on because it would be creepy. But she’s done super hard things because she’s the best human ever. I want to be her when I grow up.

Seriously do you all hear yourselves? You sound like the nastiest high school “mean girls” EVER. You’re mocking and attacking people all because you’re mad you were banned, mind you, from a page that hardly bans anyone. So that’s saying a lot.

I don’t know you all, but I do know that you infiltrated Karla Fisher and Landon’s pages and did this same childish nasty, bullying stuff. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. But you’re obviously twisted and get off on this shit.

Anybody…that would say that Kelli Stapleton was selfless and trying to murder her daughter was an act of love is in no position to question the sanity of ANYBODY.

You all are petty and disgusting. No one did anything to any of you. Just because your point of view may have been strenuously challenged does not mean you have free reign to malign and gang up on others with a viciousness one doesn’t see very often.

You don’t look funny, cute, smart or anything good. You look nasty and mean, ironic, as you are accusing others of being that way. I saw that thread you are referring to and you’re WAY off base. I have asked questions regarding ABA, vaccinations and all of that and was NEVER attacked by anyone, EVER on this page or by Kassiane or on Beth’s page. I’m calling total bullshit on that.

Now, go ahead and go trying to dig up shit about me and spread it all over the internet, do your nasty mean girls act on me. I bite and I won’t stand for your shit. You all need to grow the fuck up! So you got banned….I’ve been banned from shit too. Grow up and take it like a damned adult!

AHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!! I die! That is the best, most twisted up, convoluted, illogical assortment of random, madethefuckup accusations! I also killed Bambi’s mother; I always hated that snotty bitch. Bwahahahaha!

Who said that Kelli Stapleton was selfless and loving when she tried to murder Issy? None of my friends (and I include Flannery, Jill, Lexi, Lizbeth among them) said that Kelli was performing an act of love. Instead, everyone grieved very much that she would do such a thing. And everyone was angry at her, so angry that she would try to kill her own flesh and blood.

Even Lexi who actually had a real friendship with Kelli (not just online) was extremely angry that, rather than get help for herself, she would try to kill Issy. The only thing Lexi ever talked about was how can we make it so it is less likely for something like this to happen? What can be done to prevent more kids from being harmed at the hands of their parents?

Listen, you don’t get it. You don’t. And you don’t want to. You’re here to vilify, to condemn, to make shit up. Keep spouting your cult’s dialog. Stay in line. See what happens if you decide to have independent thought. See how long they keep you around. It’s a shaky alliance at best. If they’ve done it to EVERYONE else, they’ll do it to you.

I’m a lover of reading autism blogs. I read often and on some I post messages.some I find note worthy some I just don’t. The adult journey on being on the spectrum is a path with many enlightenments. The adult on the spectrum is valuable. After reading this post I think I will avoid that group. I’m glad I never found it. Never been there. Will never read a word from there. The blog post above was not the true eye opener. The true eye opener was the comments section. I was glad to see positive comments from autism bloggers I respect greatly.

The productiveness of this group you mention just doesn’t seem there. It certainly doesn’t seem to have the grace that is needed to be a true autism advocate page. The voices I would implore others to take in are not using valour language to get their points across. I’ve written a few things on blogs where we don’t see eye to eye on therapy. But we have always agreed to disagree with full respect of one another. The true signs of a good advocate to me is to be able to show ones point of view but still give respect to the other person. This advocacy group that is mentioned in this post seems to lack this.

Be thankful you were banned and move on. Why would you surround your self with the autistic influence that is negative. There are many autistics who do not speak like this or go on nutty rants like the screen shots I’ve seen above. I hope by writing this comment that any new ASD parent or any person who is a adult and just diagnosed will see my message. I’m hoping that they will look further. Past even the petty ness of this blog post that seems is made in anger. But will they please find the voices of autistic adults who have more to offer then a group like this that is mentioned above.

I was very lucky a few years back to have a chance to converse on line with several Autistic adults. If you are an adult and newly diagnosed then I recommend you choose your influences wisely. If you are a parent who loves your child seeking perspective please choose wisely. It makes a difference to your life who you let in and take in as a influence. Look around. This group mentioned isnt all that is out there. There is more, way more. And they show love and respect even if you don’t see eye to eye. It’s not disagreeing that’s the problem it’s how we do it.

Again to the owner of this blog, be glad that you were banned. Be thankful and rejoice. They have given you a great gift. You can now find other autistic adults who Will be respectful to your journey. Every adult. On the spectrum needs to feel valid and respected. Not just a few. Look forward not backward in your new year.

Like I said, petty. Very petty. You all are pathetic. I have no idea why it is that “Autism Parents” feel the need to be coddled and affirmed in everything they do, even if those things aren’t right for their kiddo. I just don’t get it. And “Marlowe” said it on the TPGA, thread regarding ABA. I saw it. And you all know it was said, because that’s your friend.

Keep being petty. Autismland, the only place you’ll find people this freaking nuts and happy about it, take joy and pride in it. Just wow! But you can keep thinking you all are the noble ones, but your nastiness is known through out. You are what you are. And all you can manage to attack me on is…GASP language, as if you’ve never heard, seen or used any of it before.

You’re not trying to come together or anything of the like, you just love being nasty, when you can’t have your way, like spoiled brats. And don’t act as if I wasn’t speaking English and you didn’t understand any of what I said.

Just remember, what goes around comes around…”Mean Girls”, because that’s exactly what you are. WTF is that even suppose to mean? Sandy is Hypogylcemic? Really? That’s all you’ve got you snipey bitch! One of you told Beth to go fuck herself and you’re talking about language? Really? Hypocritcal trouble makers, that’s what you are. Grow up!

So I am well known for making mean comments in different places? And I’m a bitch too? Like, um, this comment? That’s really all you have? This isn’t even in my caliber. Report back and send over the big boys to talk. Go on, run along. Send over Shannon or Kassi.

You want her to go away from her own blog? That makes about as much sense as the other shit you’ve posted here.

Listen, if you want to talk issues without trolling, do it. But no one is going to listen to you when you start out your comments as an attack. That’s what ALL OF YOU just don’t get. No one is going to take the abuse of ANYONE, autistic or otherwise, in order to learn from them. It’s like eating a shit sundae. Who’s going to knowingly eat a sundae that they know they’d have to swallow some shit with? Not me.

I was talking to that Duncan guy…yeah why would I tell her to go away from her own blog? God you’re an idiot! You aren’t trying to have a conversation at all. You don’t like the way something is said…so you attack that instead of addressing what was actually meant.

Good God Lady, you just don’t know when to stop. Clearly you’ve not had your cake. Or that bar of soap. Just keep coming back and going feral, that really shines a light on who the really mean girl is. In the meantime, I’m going to work on a sticky chart for you, that language needs some modification. Do you like silly faces or poofy stickers?

This is unrelated to this particular TTPGTA but in defence of Leigh, Flannery, Jillsmo, Lexi and anyone else that has been attacked in this whole nightmare – I want to say that they are VERY good people and the idea that they are bullies or whatever is absolutely ludicrous.

I was attacked online and personally via phone calls, texts and emails by an autism support group of parents who accused me of painting an unrealistic and unfair portrayal of ‘our’ autism and accused me of trying to gain sympathy by playing the ‘poor me’ card. My son is violent, aggressive and our version of autism ain’t always sunshine and rainbows and the fact that I wrote about that (which was extremely balanced with my gushy love-for-my-son posts) made them target me.

But you know what? It was this group of women and others like them who supported me and helped me see that I wasn’t alone. They were the ones who told me that no-one had the right to tell me what to write and that I shouldn’t have to hide our story just because ‘they’ didn’t like it.

I freely admit that I am a wimp, a wuss and an emotional weakling so ended up deleting my own blog and started again over this. And I have stayed away from commenting on anyone’s blogs for a good 12 months. I’m just glad that I never got involved with that group because there’s no way that they would have been gentle on ME!

I have nothing but a shitload of love and respect for those women. That is all.

Oh – and my name is FIONA should anyone dare to try to accuse me of hiding behind a fake name.

Fi, your particular group on the spectrum is virtually ignored, or always blamed on someone else. As though it’s incomprehensible that someone’s autism could be like that for them. They advocate for them by persecuting the parents. I feel horrible for parents in your situation.

Oops, I just ‘unfollowed’ your blog accidentally by clicking on the wrong link – see how tech savvy I am NOT?! Lol But seriously , I’m just glad that there are the likes of you guys fighting the good fight out there. Evil won’t triumph now ;)

You all really aren’t worth anymore of my time. No wonder Beth left before too long. It’s not worth it. All you’ll do is mock a person and gang up on them and attack. That’s what high school girls do….talk about arrested development.

This is surreal…a bunch of whiners wanting to coddle each other because they got rejected. Boo fucking hoo! I hope you get banned from every damn group but the people like you. Because eventually you will be. And I will be glad to NEVER encounter any of you again. Kassiane and Beth are way better than any of you, as people. Kindest most compassionate people I know and call FRIENDS, yes, FRIENDS.

Now you snotty, snipey bitches chew on and mock that! I’m sure you will. Dismiss me, have a happy time. Hope this new year brings you the hell you deserve.

No.
Hell is never EARNED, sister.
And it should never be desired upon ANYONE.
AT ALL
And I know from whence I speak.
Disagree. argue. WHATEVER
But listen…..don’t wish ill of other people.
I live hell, sister. Believe me.
I see it. I live it. I work in it. ANd try to bring light.

Sandy please go back to your friends, clearly you’re not listening to anything we’ve said. Isn’t that way you all accuse us of, not listening? The irony abounds. Quit fighting a fight that isn’t yours and calm down. Or at least have your friends come out and play. I find it interesting your friends aren’t here to join you and have left you out to dry. Maybe there were eating all the cake and THATS why you’re so pissed.

As for Kassianne– compassionate? kind? Maybe to people that kiss her ass like you, but the public face she gives to total strangers is (puts on Kassiane Tone)

I DON’T OWE YOU SHIT, LEAST OF ALL COURTESY, BECAUSE I HAVE LIVED THE WORST FUCKING LIFE IN THE WORLD SO AGREE WITH ME OR GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY YOU KNOW NOTHING MURDERING SACK OF SHIT.
Please, tell me I’m wrong. I have millions of examples to offer.

And Beth? She seems surprised that when she writes angry tirades about people on her blog, people that she doesn’t even know or has ever even spoken to or tried to resolve issues with, it’s taken as bad form, socially.

Hence, she gets told to fuck herself by adults with boundaries, and often.

If those are your friends, the examples of the kindest most compassionate people you know, than you must be a REAL ray of sunshine yourself.

Like I said Flannery Fuckery…grow up! I’m not hurt by your petty bitchiness. You twisted fuck, getting off on this shit, getting off on mocking people. Yeah, do grow up! And yes, you are WELL KNOWN for being a trouble maker and YOU ARE. That’s no secret to you, don’t play dumb.

Sandy:
I never said that I had a monopoly on hell or on hardship.
I’ve held my son while he flatlined– and live with the possibility of his demise EVERY DAY
I have been raped by knifepoint.
AND a few other nasty things
SO, yeah. I’mma gonna say I HAVE been to hell
THAT is my point.
DONT WISH SHIT LIKE THAT On OTHER PEOPLE

THe point I am making is not that YOU don’t know hell– or THEY don’t.
MY POINT IS:
it’s bad mojo/karma/whatever you want to call it- to wish ILL/HELL Onto others.

Who says Autism is sunshine and roses? NO ONE says that, NO ONE. ANd the fact that you put it in those words is troubling. I have seen comments by these people and they are not nice ones, soooo

I think many people’s perceptions of “nice” or “good” person, especially in Autismland, is based soley on how much they can complain and not really seek solutions and look like a martyr. I don’t doubt you have difficulties, not one bit. But I, for one want to conversation to change from so many Parenting groups being about the hardships and reveling and getting stuck in that, instead of how can I reduce the aggression? What is the antecedent? Not woe is me, my child is hurting me, I am so victimized. That’s ALL I heard when my daughter was first diagnosed and I was so depressed and feeling hopeless for her. That’s what that world of Autism does to people. You see no real answers or no real way out, so to speak.

And you are, Fiona, admittedly weak, so you find comfort in the woe is me coddling type groups and that’s fine. But people shouldn’t come to every group expecting that. In some you will be pressured to accept and grow up.

Sometimes WE can be in the way of our kiddos progress and the reason they are frustrated. Because instead of focusing on what to really do to help them and honor them, we busy ourselves with our own grief and feelings of being a victim. Whatever your child is doing it isn’t out of malice. There IS a reason(s). He may not be able to fully explain to you, the what? But there is one. And focusing on…”I’m so upset” as the Parent ain’t gonna get you there, I know that much.

Oh man, I’d hate to be your child. Emotionally bankrupt. Devoid of human feelings that accompany real life occurrences. Are you like this across the board? Do you judge people in your life like you do online? Do you act like you’re morally superior all of the time? Seriously. I’m asking you this. But I doubt you have the ability to introspect.

Dear Sandy, deal with your own grief and get some therapy. Obviously, you are having a difficult time understanding your anger and are projecting it onto others. Why don’t you try an exercising in feeling sorry for yourself for a minute because honestly, you need a break from the cross for a while…

I find joy and peace every day with my child and I enjoy reading these blogs because they help remind me that there is goodness when things are tough. I have a really good friend named KELLI STAPLETON who continues to be optimistic about her child’s future and life in general thanks to the support she has found. Maybe she should have done a little more complaining and had a little less optimism and we wouldn’t really be having this conversation. Or would we? I suspect we would, because you see the world is filled with lovely individuals like yourself who need to deal with your OWN GRIEF. Time to take the martyr hat off sweetie, your friends are waiting patiently in line.

I’m not left out to dry at all. They’ve done nothing wrong. When my friends are being unfairly attacked it is my fight. I dont like bullies and have always fought against them. You all are bullies and you think its fun to attack people. You think its funny and it isnt. You all have said nothing worth listening to. You’ve not tried to resoe this conflict at all. You all want to boo hoo in a room because you were rejected. Are you all that miserable with your Autistic kids that this is what you have become. It’s tragic.

Flannery..I dont know if you did that or not but whoever is sticking up for Kelli Stapleton…just NO…NO…NO..unacceptable. That is a nonstarter. I’m just asking you to stop attacking and mocking my friends. People can disagree, even strongly and thats ok…I’m good with that, thats how we learn. But Parents need to stop.discounting what Autistic people have to say and accusing people of being militant and bullies and hating Parents. Kassiane, Beth and I are really close.and they are just NOT the people you’re accusing them of being. K has a big personality and is very outspoken and.not everyone knows how to take that… But she is full of love and compassion like no one else. Beth has been an awesome friend as well..just like people say about you all. But you just can’t go around doing this stuff because you get banned or have a personal problem with someone’s personality. That’s NOT ok. I dont usually even go off or curse like that…but the mocking and joy in another’s pain was more than I could stand. Reminded me of bullies I had to handle years ago. Not right..if you can agree to stop attacking my friends..then we definitely have a truce.

Um I’m not in grief over my child at all…are you kidding me. You support and think an attempted murderer is honorable…I really have no use for you. YOU’RE the one in need of therapy because that his truly sick. It’s your Kiddo I feel for.

So I’m going to go with smiley faces for your sticker charts because WOW this girl (that would be you Sandy) needs some happy STAT. Instead of focusing on someone else why don’t you work on yourself? I see a whole lot of angst and rage and that’s not even hitting on your other issues. Before you diagnose anyone else here, I highly suggest you get your own rage and boundary issues in check. Your poor kids.

I just want to thank everyone for coming tonight, especially my friends from “down under”, G’day, mates! I want to wish everyone and happy and healthy new year, with nothing but good thing for your family.

Signing off now from the Capital of Texas, this is Flannery wishing you happy trails!

On a more serious note, I generally try to stay out of the petty stuff. These threads get posted on TPGA and elsewhere with predictable results. I’ve been on the receiving end of Kassiane’s ire and it is no fun, but you know what? From what I’ve read from her, she’s had a tough life. I don’t agree with her approach, but I don’t have to. We don’t have to be friends nor do I have to participate in every argument.

But the problem I’ve had with TPGA for a while is that it is supposed to be this equal playing field for all people involved with the autism community. And it just isn’t. I’ve been chastised there for civil debate while the TPGA favorites are not, even when they sink much lower. The example Flannery points out in this post is just one of many. So while I’m not specifically “boycotting” anything, I think that page has lost its way, is no longer a source of support or education, and isn’t a place I want to spend my limited time or mindspace.

I totally agree with you, Jennie! That is my major problem there too. To be honest, I don’t feel comfortable asking a legitimate question or posting an opinion on even the most innocuous topic, because I have seen people get raked over the coals by certain favorites. I would love for it to go back to being a balanced, fair place to discuss things. I have a lot to learn from self-advocates. And honestly, I can put up with a lot of crap–sometimes too much, but at some point I just get really sick of being compared to murderers, especially when I try really hard to get people to stop comparing autists to murderers. I’d at least like that much respect.

I stopped following TPGTA a while back. It upset me to see parents who were struggling and reaching out be dismissed and/or berated. The idea behind the page is an admirable one, the execution of the principle however has gone so wonky it’s lost its way. TPGTA need to revisit their mission statement and goals and reassess how they moderate based on that analysis. They’d also do well to understand allowing traumatised people unfettered access without censure does not help them to move beyond their pain, and it’s also not advocacy. It does however give them unlimited license to project their contempt and grief upon others. That makes it a very unsafe environment for everyone.

I’m not in Irving. You may feel hurt but that is not the intent. Telling a Parent to stop whining, focusing on mostly.negative things and try to accept and learn is not being mean. It is being real and it is.necessary to do those things to move forward and best help your kiddo. Just b/c someone says something in a tone you dont like doesn’t invalidate the.message. Many Autism Parents need to grow up and stop getting stuck in my Autism is worse than yours and so is my suffering. That is so counterproductive… It really is and I know people.on my end of advocacy are pretty much over it. If we dont get a handle.on this…our kiddos will be treated this.poorly and thought of in a negative way. We’ ll never get past it. I am working to get past the same old memes, so is Beth and Kassiane

Sandy, I was conscientious in writing the facts of what took place. I cannot rewrite the facts. The screen shots are real, and your friend really did equate parents to a parent that hit their bottom and tried to kill herself and her child. No one equated Kassi to Adam Lanza, with all the anger and hatred. I just simply cannot condone the comparisons she draws. It’s very harmful, wreckless, and irresponsible.

If you have the evidence you need to display it in full and if you can’t stop making the.accusations and attacks. You just really need to stop. I have seen much of both of their writing and I’m not buying it. I dont think, Flannery you wanna let go of this. I think you.might just enjoy keeping it going and I’m asking you to put it ALL out there or stop because its just plain wrong.

What you are accusing her of…it isn’t in THIS thread thats for sure.
Look Flannery, at some point you’re going to have to really take a good hard look in the mirror at how you really feel and just how much you have processed Autism as it relates to you.

Because using Beth, Kassiane, Shannon or anyone else as a battering ram for your frustrations that really have nothing to do with them us untenable. And its unfair.

And all I can do is leave you with that. Because you are refusing to not attack them and thats unacceptable. Because the attacks and accusations really are unfounded. You have made yourself their victim and seem content with that. I obviously I failed in my attempt to move you past that. I’m sorry it is this way and doesn’t have to be.

What attack? I wrote the facts. I’ve shown you the facts. I think you can’t admit that she said what she said. That she compared all parents to Kelli Stapleton. It’s strange that everyone else can clearly see that in the comments, right there in black and white, but somehow you just can’t acknowledge it. It’s time that everyone was accountable for their actions.

Any comments have to do with Kelli Stapleton apologists…period. She has NEVER accused all Autism Parents of any such thing…you are being dishonest. And if you are one and the shoe fits than so be it. Keep playing this game and using Beth to.play victim. Thats what you want and I can’t help you with that. What you’re saying would include me too and I know that’s complete bull. Like I said of you’re an apologist for.murderers and attempted then thats a problem and like minded people will agree with you. This accusation wouldn’t survive a court action thats for sure.

@ Snady: Ms. Sibley may not have directly accused anyone of wanting to murder their children, but she did imply it. To quote one of her Facebook posts:

Keli Stapleton followed threads like this. She tried to kill her daughter. Soooo I do not think ANY parent is above scrutiny.
The above is basically an implication that since some parents would rather murder their children that they don’t have to care for (Keli’s daughter lived with her maternal grandmother), then all parents are potentially likely to do the same thing. And no, Ms. Sibley didn’t qualify her statement by saying that she was addressing her remarks only to Keli Stapleton apologists. Simples!
I have multiple cognitive disabilities. What’s your excuse?

Okay, scratch the part of my above post where I say Issy Stapleton lived with her grandmother. The child in that case actually died, whereas Issy fortunately survived her mother’s attempt (I need an eighth hole in my head).

I know this is supposed to be serious, but this has all been popcorn worthy. As for Kassianne, I guess she would lump me in with being abusive to my wonderful autie princess with all of the EI and the few ABA therapies that she went through. Because of those therapies, my daughter has made some breakthroughs that I don’t think would’ve been possible without her wonderful team of therapists. She still has some ways to go, but she will get there with the help from us, her kindergarten teacher, and her aides at school. I can see with my own two eyes that Kassiane is villifying other parents who do put their kids in ABA because of her own experience. That’s like me saying that all the men named David are bad because a David molested me when I was four. The irony is, I married a David. I can understand that not ALL programs are good, but I believe that has to do more with the individual therapist and not the program itself. Luckily, my daughter had some very good therapists.

We are in still in the early stages of coming to terms with our Sons Autism (aspergers and apraxia), but I found this very site and initially thought it would be a source of invaluable info. Sadly after a very short time I came to the same conclusion that you did, plus the amount of bad press this site now receives is a deterrent in itself.

Personal experiences are invaluable, but only when shared in a moderated and respectful manner, vilifying individual or their point of view is both a waste of time and hurtful. Most people with Autism, and parents of children with Autism are already struggling enough, without additional aggro. What a shame that a page that could have worked to educate and inform, has instead become a forum for aggression and narrow minded opinions.

TESTIFYYYYYY!!!! I am SOOOOO glad someone articulated EXACTLY what I was thinking when this thread took off on FB. Kassianne no doubt has had enough hard breaks in her life to warrant some compassion, but, still, what a toxic, mean-spirited, bigoted bully. TPGA has devolved into a dangerous mess of hate and irresponsibility. I’m shocked by the level of hypocrisy because they just *get away with it.* I don’t understand how people I can respect can continue to support a site that denounces best-practice therapies, encourages people to forego treatment, and role models a victim-stance for any autistic individuals who might read the blog. Thank you. Could NOT agree more!

As the new year starts, it can be very difficult to get quality time with your children when you are going to and fro for appointments, therapies, sports,… and the list goes on. If pressed for time, start with small steps. Schedule 10-15 minute on the family calendar or your appointment book to read a book, play a game, or just talk with your child. When possible, consider a fun family night, where all members of your family can bond.

Hi, I’m sorry to butt in, I’m not autistic or a parent with autistic kids, I became very interested in this from following Rob Rummel-Hudson’s blog (not about autism exactly) and eventually ended up at TPGA and then here. I thought it was me “not getting it” because I knew nothing about the community and not that much about the condition, but I was very uneasy about the whole, “ignore the problem, you’re awesome in your autism” when it seemed to involve ignoring therapies and the need to find cures *and* also was so savage about caregivers. Glad to see that parents are fighting back. I ended up on Kassiane’s site and it was pretty interesting to read. I felt bad for the abuse she went through, especially when it appears she can’t fathom a non-abusive paradigm from parents who may not have the same exact opinions as herself. She apparently wants to become a pediatric neurologist. I couldn’t help wondering what kind of damage a person with this close-minded thinking and utter refusal to entertain the thought that she might not be right have with an MD after her name. I hope that’s not the case, that if she does end up following this path, the 6+ years of required training will knock some sense of the necessary nuanced approach of this field into her. I also followed a link to where Ari Ne’eman(?) was articulating his position that perhaps good manners and socialization should be removed from job requirements. Then I find out that he’s in his 20s and never earned a dime on his own (aside from being appointed? Does that come with any $?). Essentially, he’s supposed to be the face, or one of them, of self-advocates and he’s stating that employers should not care about irrelevancies like good socialization? My point is, I’m a NT with zero personal stake in autism (aside from compassion that we should all have for anyone in a struggle), and I think it’s very valuable to understand adult autistic perspectives. However, if these self-advocacy groups that currently exist don’t feel the need to extend collaboration and dialogue with, uh, *parents* of autistic folks, they’re certainly not going to get anywhere with the vast majority of NTs who have no skin in the game and who could care less. I don’t count myself among the latter, but I know that most people are wrapped up in their own immediate lives and are super quick to discount others’ concerns at the best of times, so what makes Ari and his ilk think that such militant disdain is going to make a dent in NT indifference? Just my $0.01

I agree. As an Autistic adult who believes in true neurodiversity, I don’t agree with using ABA (for example) to ‘remove the Autism from children’, but I see no problem with using it as a therapy to teach Autistic children essential skills such as communication (not necessarily with speech) and dressing themselves.

To add to the above, that means no ‘quiet hands’ or aversives should be used, and it should be widely stated that the Judge Rotenberg Center’s use of ABA is not to be recommended since it has turned a potentially useful therapy into torture.

I have to agree that TPGA are a bunch of self rightious fools. I’ve just had comments deleted on their facebook page because apparently I was being disrespectful and might “trigger” autistic people (whatever that means). I presume it means that my words might cause them distress and send them into some kind of meltdown. My comments were simply some criticism on the arguments used in a blog post they linked to. I didn’t criticise autistic people (why would I my son’s autistic!!), I didn’t even disagree with the main point of the article I simply criticised the method of arguing the case. It was poorly argued and, in my opinion, counter productive to a getting the message across. A message I was in agreement with. But apparently criticising something they linked to might cause “distress” and “triggers” and be “offensive” and “disrespectful”

What makes me laugh is that they seem to think that autistic people are sensitive little babies that need to be protected from even the slightest of things. In their minds, it seems, that all autistic people are delicate little flowers who just can’t handle reading anything that has not been utterly vetted and censored by them. So they appoint themselves as the arbitrators of what their delicate, fragile autistic readers might be able to handle. Now, to me, that attitude IS genuinely offensives. Most autistic people I know are perfectly capable of handling on line discussion in an adult way. I refuse to treat them like children who need protecting because that just patronising.

Anyway glad to hear I’m not the only ones that found them to be a bunch of twats.

There are so many things there that don’t make sense and are downright offensive. Like their fake non-profit tax status, for instance. Or the fact that their business license has been suspended for a year. It’s a toxic place run by privileged, wealthy wives with too much time on their hands.