10 March 2011

The STAB knife defense system is certainly a good one. This is a solid video on knife defence. I encourage everyone to watch this all the way through, it is that important. It is 17min and 20sec of your life, invest it in learning this stuff.

The STAB knife defence system is alive and it is all about controlling that knife bearing limb. This is 90% of what effective knife defence is all about. Controlling that knife bearing limb.

At Low Tech Combat, we discuss realistic knife defence a lot. The things we suggest for a realistic and effective knife defence system is evident in the STAB system.

For further considerations and info on realistic knife attacks and defence, check out the following:

10 comments:

"The STAB knife defence system is alive and it is all about controlling that knife bearing limb. This is 90% of what effective knife defence is all about. Controlling that knife bearing limb."

I perceive this characterization of the method shown as misleading. If we literally did this, it would be suicidal because any reasonably conscious person would just smash you with the rest of their weapons while you obsessed over the knife limb, unable to shift attention to their shifting attack. I see films of people drilling with shock knives who do exactly that, they are so afraid of the knife that they forget the person has three other limbs, a head, and teeth.

I think this strategy probably works pretty well, but because he is positioning intelligently and safely, not specifically because he is controlling the knife holding limb. That's only a small part of what he's actually doing from what I'm seeing.

Hey Todd. Always enjoy reading your comments. I see what you are saying but I have some responses to share.

"it would be suicidal because any reasonably conscious person would just smash you with the rest of their weapons while you obsessed over the knife limb, unable to shift attention to their shifting attack."

Not necessarily. Most knife attackers will be solely focused on using their weapon. That is what is giving them the psychological edge and confidence to launch their attack whether that be a mugging attempt or just begin stabbing. If their victim all of a sudden has their knife bearing limb pinned or controlled, they would not like that at all. They would instinctually try to regather that arm as they would fear that the knife was going to be taken from them. Remember that at this stage, both parties would be severely adrenalised. Primal thoughts are happening only, not rational and tactical thoughts.

I really feel that most knife attackers would not use their other weapons in such a situation and such a mental state. Their focus would be on getting that knife and their knife bearing limb back off the other person. This is the same thing as when one person has another in a rear naked choke. Yes, technically speaking, the person in the choke could try a myriad of tricky techniques or strike the groin but in the real thing (even live combat sports) we have seen that the instinct of the defender is not to try those techniques, but to reach up and try to pry that choking arm off their throat. Usually with no avail. The same thing would likely happen to the knifer when his knife bearing limb gets captured.

"I think this strategy probably works pretty well, but because he is positioning intelligently and safely, not specifically because he is controlling the knife holding limb. "

Good point about the positioning of the defender. Yes, in STAB the defender is in a very good position outside and away from the other weapons. I also think if you trap that limb in a similar hold on the inside and real close and using forward pressure with the shoulder and head, it would still be a decent position as that knife bearing limb is still controlled. He can no longer sewing machine it in and out.

So yeah Todd, I see what you are saying but I do not think an adrenalised knife attacker will think about using his other weapons. Even if he does, so what, you have the knife and it is no longer a threat at that time. You now also have the element of surprise, and the initiative. Of course, you would not stay there, from that controlling position you could disengage, stomp rake the eyes, take down, knee, whatever. There are good techniques I have been shown from that inside and controlling position but this site is not so much about showing techniques per say, it is more about ideas and concepts.

I do acknowledge however, that it would be better to be on the outside as they do in the STAB system as it is a much safer position. But being on the inside is not the end of the world.

Karl's stuff works. There's is no doubt about it. Karl had a JKD/FMA background and is an accomplished MMA coach. He was stabbed multiple times and his extensive training in FMA failed him. Karl was fortunate enough to survive and review his approach to training, hence STAB.

Karl determined that controlling the limbs was the best means of controlling the knife and that Greco Roman wrestling (the 2 on 1 in this instance) offered the best means of controlling the limbs. It makes sense.

STAB is simply about taking a dominant position and from there applying other tactics - trauma or distance.

ISR Matrix knife defence draws on elements similar to STAB and Redzone 1, with some Policing and Military considerations thrown in.

STAB plugs in very well with ISR Matrix as an incidental knife defence as ISR also use the 2 on 1 and arm drags.

The video extract shown is 17 mins of what would ordinary be a much longer seminar.

Redzone 2 in my opinion started to get a little off track and a little too focused on SPEAR type interception. Jerry Wetzel was right into Blauer at the time. I'm with Karl in that if there's room to intercept then there's room to run and/or you won't know the knife is in the fight until it's too late so the pickup/block becomes redundant.

There's a lot to be said for taking STAB/RZ/ISR concepts and blending them with pummeling and clinch drills.....

I attended Karl's STAB program at a BCA session years back. It is based largely on BJJ methods.

Even Karl himself says that it doesn't have all the answers (the STAB system)and from my own experience and from instructing counter-weapons fighting there was a lot wrong with the techniques that were used.

However...

There was some solid stuff that could be used if you're in a grappling situation and the knife is drawn and brought into play in that arena. Theres not a lot in the way of techniques - no bad thing - but some of the techniques I would say would be easier than others in a high stress situation. Unless you were exceptionally good or just plain lucky.

Karl himself was a charming, knowledgable and funny guy and without a doubt could certainly handle himself in a real go. I would recommend that people train with him if they got the opportunity.

The fact that Karl said they system does not have all the answers is a good sign in my eyes. His cup is not full. I like that in an instructor. I don't think any system has all the answers. I think STAB covers the main point well. Control that knife bearing limb.

Thanks for the comments Dave. Always nice to have guys like yourself popping by.

I think its an important point you raised about having all the answers. Counter-knife is such a varied and emotive subject matter that I don't think anyone or any "system" has ALL the answers - even people who've had to deal with knife assaults first hand don't have all the answers. At least I wouldn't trust/believe anyone who said that they did!!

Great post and great comments. I agree that no one has all the answers. After all, who out there has successfully survived multiple knife attacks, over and over again, with low or minor injury? I would venture not many.

I agree that one of the central concepts of any knife survival technique is to control the knife. Either that or do something that create time and space. It's harder to do this, of course, as most knife attacks aren't telegraphed.

I've been enjoying your blog and watched the STAB video with great interest as I've been working on a series of articles on knife survival techniques over on my blog. Overall, I liked the victim and the system. I have a few issues, but the instructor made it make sense to the students and the techniques weren't overly complex, another important factor.

Very insightful comments on the attacker fixating on holding on to the knife. The more primal thought patterns that emerge under stress are an often overlooked area. There's lots of material on how stress will affect you when attacked, but few systems discuss the effects of stress on the attacker.

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