Big 4 First Year – Getting Fired

I know that posts like this have been made before, but I wanted to write out my own situation because it kinda makes me feel better.

I started at one of the Big 4 in audit last September. Things were kinda rocky in the beginning because I was dealing with a really awful commute. I didn’t let it bother me though because I liked the work I was doing and my team seemed cool initially. Unfortunately I never really clicked with my team after the first couple weeks, and by the end of busy season I could tell that they actively disliked me. As the low person on the totem pole I just took whatever comments were thrown my way, but the environment was really uncomfortable. As a result, I never grew, never learned, and didn’t perform well.

My year-end review came up and I received a low score and was told that I need to “seek an opportunity outside of the firm.” I expect that I will be let go sometime in July. This kind of came as a shock to me as I never heard of a first year being let go before.

I don’t like making excuses, and I know that I have the potential to be so much better than I was the past year. Regardless of my teams feelings for me, I will be reaching out to everyone I worked with to get advice on how I can better myself going forward. I have a strong desire to be an asset for whatever firm I work for next. I never want something like this to happen to me ever again.

That being said I was hoping to get some advice on how to find a new position. I know that it’s a stretch but I really want a shot at working for another big 4, in tax if possible. I have looked around and I know that big 4 typically only hire graduating college students for their entry level positions.

If another big 4 isn’t a possibility I will probably be reaching out to a recruiter. I am not really sure how well I would be received considering I am being let go before completing my first year. I have passed all of my CPA exams and I have my Masters in Accounting, so I am hoping that could help reduce the negative impact getting fired will have. I also believe that it will be possible to get a recommendation from another team that I worked with for a brief period of time. They liked me and the review I got from them had nothing but nice things in it.

Any advice would be appreciated. If there is something I am not even thinking about that you consider to be important I would love to hear it. Sorry if this comes across as rambling or if it sounds crappy- it’s kinda late at night and I might not be thinking too clearly at the moment.

HWSquared

My 0.02 – be ‘proactive’, much though I loathe that word. Get away from the Big 4, find a mid-tier to work in for a few years. Get experience, get CPA after your name. It’ll be very easy to sell yourself to a mid-tier now with the “it wasn’t what I was sold and I am not learning/developing/some other bullshit” line. Then in a few years you’ll be able to prove that you’ve learned/developed/etc at the mid-tier and will be able to easily transition into the Big 4, if you want to, as an experienced hire.

Was the awful commute because of a specific client location, or were you living a long way from where the office/main client base was? If it’s the latter, learn from this. Live near the office and shrink your commute as far as possible. If you have real-life commitments that mean you have to live in a particular place (childcare/caring for parents/etc) then find a job near home.

What’s important is that you move rapidly. The aim of the game is to always be employed so you don’t have the obvious gap on your CV which says “I was fired and was too naive to see it coming”.

Commando

Your Big Four career is probably over.
If you really want to try again, I suggest you go get a Masters in Tax from one of the good schools – good being ones that the Big Four recruit big numbers from, or first get a law degree and go to NYU for their top LLM program.

Bloviator

Worst advice ever. Ignore this dipshit.

Commando

Ditto

Debit_cash

I can rephrase most of Commandos posts on this forum in one sentence:

“If you didn’t get into Harvard Business school, you’re a big fat jagaloon, and you should apply for retail jobs.”

Commando

Actually, I think Stanford and Chicago are better than Harvard. And if you really read my stuff, you know I favor podiatry.

BoredatWork

HWSquared is right – get away from the Big4. I’d shoot for mid-tier and then regional. Don’t use a recruiter, try to have a friend refer you or email/apply directly to that firms job site. Do this RIGHT NOW.

I would use a recruiter for any industry positions. Cast that net as wide as you can.

Don’t be too hard on yourself, I have first hand knowledge of “Big4” icing new hires out after a few weeks. Senior’s are under immense time pressure and they can be total jerks and write you off almost immediately.

Debit_cash

-The big 4 is not for everyone; that’s why most people only last about two years in a big 4, the bullshit that one has to deal with is immense. You’re the norm, not the exception.
-The good news is you have a brand firm on your resume. Update your resume and create a LinkedIn to network with recruiters in your area. Recruiters will be all over you. I wouldn’t say that you were fired; I would just say that public accounting was not a good fit, and you want to check out some opportunities in industry.
-As commando stated, you’re time with the big 4 is probably over. Most senior associates communicate with each other and once you have a bad reputation with the big 4, you’re toast. The best shot you have at sticking it out would be to have a candid conversation with your senior about your performance, and try to improve as much as you can.
-You might get hired by a different big 4, but the expectations at all big 4 are same across the board. So you would need to change your attitude and work on your weaknesses.

Reasonable Assurance

The norm is not to be fired as a staff 1….

The norm is to quit on your own accord within 2-3 years.

Debit_cash

It’s also in the norm for first years to be fired over performance reasons. I’ve seen it happen

PwC Guy

No, it’s not the norm for first years to be fired. You’re lying both to him and to yourself. Just cause you’ve seen it doesn’t make it the norm. It is very, very abnormal for someone to be fired before even making it out of their first year. Most often the really bad performers will be “coached out” sometime during their 2nd year. If you’re being let go during your first year, you really, really sucked.

Debit_cash

The point I was trying to make is that the OP has an abundance of career options, even if he’s being coached out as a first year.

PwC Guy

If by “abundance” you mean he can be a staff accountant somewhere, then yes, he has an abundance of career options.

Unbalanced14

We routinely let go 2 first years out of every hire class. I wouldnt say it is unusual

Reasonable Assurance

You have a strange definition of “norm”. I’ve seen plenty go on performance plans and get booted staff 2 year before the promotion to senior.

Outright fire a staff 1? After investing all the time and effort? Plus if they were interns?

It looks bad on your resume to leave before senior. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

N.E.R.D.

“It looks bad on your resume to leave before senior. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.”

Maybe if you’re trying to stay in B4. Finding a gig as an experienced associate outside of B4 with 1 year is not that difficult.

Reasonable Assurance

Yeah I’m not saying leaving before senior in big 4 only. I think if you’re going to leave public accounting you should make it to senior associate.

You do not know much leaving as a staff 1.

Big4Veteran

Small addendum: If you want to be an accountant, you should at least make it to Senior Associate before leaving. If you want to be an accountant.

N.E.R.D.

I don’t think OP wants to leave public though.

Biff Tannen

Agreed 100%. I know tons of PE and VC accountants who left B4 after a year or two.

Debit_cash

I agree that it looks bad on your resume to leave a big 4 before making senior; however, there are plenty of recruiters who would give their left nut to have a big 4 alum in their pool of clients, even if they only have one year of experience.

Biff Tannen

I left way before Senior and now I make more than my former classmates/coworkers who are either still Seniors at the B4 or left as Seniors. I would not say it’s typical but I don’t feel like I was penalized in my own case.

Big4Veteran

The big question is what will you be making compared to them 10 years from now…

Biff Tannen

That is certainly a fair question. It does depend on what industry you leave B4 for. I am in PE, so I am in a pretty good spot and see some good pathways forward should I play my cards right. However, leaving B4 at year 1 or 2 for a corporate accounting or IA job that technically pay more would probably mean accepting a lower ceiling overall.

Nuhammad Irfan

My B4 office coached out 80% of 1st year associate every year, it’s gotten so bad that we have SMs that don’t even have senior.

Reasonable Assurance

Glad I don’t work in your office!

Debit_cash

-As HWsquared mentioned, another option would be to work for a regional firm.

inertiatic_esp

I think you shouldn’t worry about the Big 4 aspect for now – make sure you land a job and then focus on improving your professional performance & career management so that a similar situation doesn’t happen again.

N.E.R.D.

“This kind of came as a shock to me as I never heard of a first year being let go before.”

It happens all the time. It’s just that nobody likes to talk about it.

Debit_cash

To add on to nerd’s comment, there’s a reason why the big 4 spend millions of dollars on yearly recruiting. If it wasn’t so bad, then why would there be so much turnover?

Big4Veteran

Counterpoint: Turnover is a good thing and an essential part of the firms’ business model. Turnover allows everyone to climb one rung up on the ladder every year. Without turnover, there would be very little advancement, which is one of the main selling points for working at a large CPA firm.

Also, turnover indicates that private industry highly values the skill set and abilities of staff who started out their careers in large accounting firms. If these skills weren’t valued by private industry, fewer people would be hired out of large accounting firms…and turnover would be much lower.

PwC Guy

Ok, since no one else is apparently going to give it to you straight, I will. If you are going to be coached out before you finish your first year, this probably is not the career/profession for you. Despite what some of the other morons are saying in the comments, it is absolutely NOT the norm to be coached out during your first year.

In Big 4, the extremely poor performers are usually identified in their first year and coached out sometime during their second year. Having worked with several of them directly, and having been part of the process that reviewed their performance, I can tell you that their performance was abysmal and they will never make it in public accounting. Their best hope would be to land a staff accountant job at some company with a pension and ride it out in that position for 20+ years. These are people who take a ridiculously long time to complete even the most mediocre tasks, make all sorts of errors, can’t interact with the client well, have personality problems, seem to be unable to learn at a level consistent with their peers, don’t handle stress well, etc. So, with that explained, for you to be coached out prior to when the people above were, you either did something really bad, or you are a very severe combination of the above issues.

I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you’re probably not cut out for this field. Yes, you can go ride a desk as a staff accountant at some company for a couple decades, but maybe there is something else out there more fulfilling for you than accounting? Good luck, hope everything works out for you in the end.

N.E.R.D.

Careful with all that kool-aid, you might choke trying to swallow it all at once.

PwC Guy

What are you talking about? Nothing there was Kool-aid. It’s just the truth. You didn’t make it very far in big 4 either, did you? Kool-aid would have been telling him he just needs to work more (but don’t charge the additional hours) and volunteer for some “learning opportunities”.

N.E.R.D.

You come across as a condescending ass because you’ve drank too much B4 kool-aid. Your “truth” sounds like the B4-or-bust mentality that they propagandize college kids with. The world is not nearly that black and white.

I avoid the B4 because I see what kind of shit heads they produce (plus the pay is mediocre, but I digress).

Debit_cash

He is a condescending, self indulgent boaster, along with the rest of the PwC people

N.E.R.D.

Take it easy. They gotta psych themselves up somehow!

It’s not like they’re just accountants. Oh wait…

PwC Guy

True, we are just accountants. There is a little bit of pride of being at the top of your field though. You wouldn’t understand. 😉

N.E.R.D.

I have a masters in taxation from a top 5 university in the nation. It’s not as if I cannot get into B4. It very much is that I don’t want to. I turned down B4 offers because they wanted to pay me less for worse living conditions and to work more hours. I’m not a fool.

You drank the kool-aid and now you think you’re more than just another accountant. Jim Jones had a following for a reason; some people just can’t think for themselves. They so desperately want to believe they are more than what they are.

PwC Guy

lol, how cute, you have a masters in Tax. It’s almost like you’re a real accountant. Sounds like you 1. overpaid for your degree, 2. had a low GPA and couldn’t land any B4 interviews/offers, and 3. are now the bitter anti-B4 type who will spend the rest of his life trying to justify to everyone else why he didn’t actually want to be at what’s considered the top of his field. But hey, keep calling it Kool-aid and railing against how you were smarter and better than everyone who went B4. We’ll really take that to heart and end up crying all the way to the bank. 😉

N.E.R.D.

Keep talking. You make my point stronger and stronger.

There is no way I’d want to work with someone as smug as you.

Biff Tannen

“How cute”? No offense dude, but you keep validating the stereotypical portrait of a PWC snob that everyone here tried to paint you with. Telling people off left and right how they couldn’t hack working there is sort of funny. It’s just an accounting firm. It’s not like PWC is the Navy SEALS, some type of apex elite force revered by our honor/shame warrior culture.

PwC Guy

No offense dude, but I couldn’t care less what some anonymous people on the internet think of me or PwC.

PwC Guy

No need to boast. My resume says enough.

Skitch

Is Big 4 the sum total of your existence? I was in Big 4 too but it’s the least interesting thing I’ve done. Except to recruiters for accounting jobs. Yay.

Debit_cash

I turned down 2 job offers from PwC. I went with another big 4 that’s not full of self-boasting accountants. After seeing your posts I realized that I made the right choice 🙂

PwC Guy

Thank god, cause I would have hated having to work with a self-righteous tool that snap judges people on a message board.

Debit_cash

Coming from the guy who snap judges people on a big 4 forum. I don’t know if I should laugh or just feel sorry for you. Its idiots like you that tarnish the PwC brand.

J.C.

“I avoid the B4 because I see what kind of shit heads they produce”

Sounds to me like someone either couldn’t make it into, or couldn’t hack it in, the B4. Anyone who actually knows anything about this career field knows that B4 on your resume is a huge step up when leaving public. Go look at independent job postings online. Any accounting position that is actually worth something usually has “Big 4 experience preferred” right there in the qualifications.

Debit_cash

And we have another big 4 Kool-Aid drinker, welcome aboard, sir!

N.E.R.D.

Thanks for proving my point.

Adam Hill

Here, here!!

Unbalanced14

This is what I dont get it. B4 is overrated. You are pigeon holed into one client doing the same stuff all year. I work at a 2nd tier firm (GT, RSM, BDO) and feel like my experience is better. I have been exposed to more clients, more types of transactions, and seen more than any B4 assoicate has. I interact directly with CFOs and Controllers. As a Senior, I am tasked with managing the engagement (something managers at the B4 typically do) which includes monitoring the budget, coordinating with our India team, and handling all questions from the client and the staff. I am in constant communication with my managers and partners discussing all these things. I am also the first level of review on all my staffs work. I also end up preparing some workpapers as well as researching new guidance or auditing new areas. My clients arent quite as big, but many times an $800M client has the same problems as a $2B client. Just my thoughts. Embrace debate right?

PwC Guy

lol, boy you sure have a lot of knowledge about how a B4 works even though you’ve never worked in one. It’s always amusing how those saying B4 is overrated are those who never were in B4, or those who washed out or quit before senior.

No, in B4 you are not pigeon-holed unless you are unlucky enough to end up on a massive client, and in that case you still get to list your experience on your resume working on a Fortune 100 client. You can also request off that type of client if you really don’t like it. Even if you are on a major client, you will still work on more than just that one during the year. Most of us work on 3-4 clients a year, both public and private. Sorry to break it to you, but at the senior level in B4 we also do everything you listed. That’s just the job of a senior. We also are in charge of coordinating with component audit teams around the world, cross-LOS teams, and our various outsourcing teams (Florida, Argentina, and India). Long story short, the senior’s job is to run all aspects of the engagement on a day-to-day basis. When you make S3 you will also start to take on “acting manger” roles.

In the end, we probably do a lot of the same things, and have mostly the same role. The difference will be that I’ll have more public clients, larger clients, and higher revenue clients.

Biff Tannen

I knew a very angry young female auditor from PWC who told me she spent months of 80 hour weeks working on one of her F500 clients, solely on A/P. I always wondered if her RBF had been there permanently or was merely the fruit of slaving over one line item for years of her life.

Biff Tannen

Many of the performance issues you mention could easily be alleviated if B4 seniors and managers didn’t uniformly suck at communicating with/coaching young staff.

Reasonable Assurance

You sound like someone who got fired and I don’t even like working for a big 4.

Biff Tannen

No sir, I quit on good terms.

PwC Guy

At what level? I’m betting staff 2

Debit_cash

I agree, most senior associates have horrible leadership skills. I once had a senior follow me to the crapper during busy season. He was making sure that I wasn’t on my phone. What a jerk

Unbalanced14

This is a little extreme.

PwC Guy

I’m not sure that it is, honestly. I’ve been here long enough that I’ve seen this cycle repeat itself several times. It’s just some brutal honesty, which most managers are too scared to give struggling staff because they don’t want to look bad.

IndenturedServant

Chances are good OP’s office overhired and he just happens to be the weirdest/least competent person in his class.

Big4Veteran

I’ll add something different from what all the other commenters said here. I think there is more to this story that you are not telling us. Why did you not fit in with the rest of the team? It’s possible that you are a perfectly normal person and everyone else is a bunch of assholes. OR maybe there is something about you. I’m not trying to be mean here…I’m just saying that some inward reflection may be a thing to consider. At the very least, it may help you avoid repeating the same mistakes in future jobs.

“Performance reasons” can mean a lot of things. It can often be a cop out or a pussy’s way of avoiding the real issue. You passed the CPA exam, which is more than we can say for most first years in public accounting. It also indicates that you have the foundational knowledge to be able to do (and learn) this job. So what is it? Why did things not work out for you?

Need more info.

N.E.R.D.

“Why did you not fit in with the rest of the team? It’s possible that you are a perfectly normal person and everyone else is a bunch of assholes. OR maybe there is something about you.”

This is very true, and probably has the most to do with OP’s post.

knucklehead

Exactly why I am in his position.

Biff Tannen

Fair point. OP, did you send X-rated photgraphs, WAV files or any type of sexist/racist/xenophobic email forwards around the office?

peakfreak

“I just took whatever comments were thrown my way, but the environment was really uncomfortable. As a result, I never grew, never learned, and didn’t perform well.”

This right here is your problem and why you’re in your current situation. Your team was giving you feedback and you ignored it. The firm basically views their efforts so far as sunk costs, and has decided you’re not worth more time and effort.

It’s legitimately possible that your team sucked at coaching, and gave you very passive feedback – such that you took it as suggestions or petty nagging. But the truth is that your job is to make your boss’s job easier. That means you do whatever stupid shit they want. Specific formatting, ultra-detailed time tracking, and even dinner/coffee runs are fair game. Furthermore, you get to do all that petty shit with a cheery attitude. Your boss is doing you a favor since as a staff 1 your value to the firm is still negative.

Unfortunately for you, there are no second chances in this game. You won’t get another shot at the Big 4. Which is ok. There’s a lot more to life and your career than a Big 4 public accounting job. I’d take this as an opportunity to find an easier job, think of what you really want to do in life, and be glad that you missed out on an underwhelming career in public accounting.

Biff Tannen

Largely this is good advice, but beware giving too much benefit of the doubt to B4 seniors. They do, largely, suck at coaching, personal communication, and offering solid feedback. Many of them have stunted and warped personalities. Not ALL – far be it from me to make sweeping stereotypical statements – but MANY. The team I was on offered no useful feedback, and tended to communicate displeasure with awkwardness and cold shoulders rather than any time of constructive behavior.

IndenturedServant

This. Since when were seniors good at giving feedback?

Nuhammad Irfan

Since never, really

peakfreak

I’m sure the feedback was terrible, but if you want to make at a B4 you have to learn how to interpret bad feedback.

Nuhammad Irfan

or in many cases no feedback at all.

Chief Bean Counter

You have an opportunity to be strategic here… make sure you DO NOT QUIT until you have found a new position. If they let you go, you will at least have the option to get unemployment. Speak to your partner and come up with a plan for you to have time to interview while “working.” They would much rather you leave on your own accord than fire you.

Bloviator

You’ve received a lot of bad advice in these comments that you should ignore. The big four have toxic corporate cultures held over from the mid-20th Century. To see the results of those cultures, look no further than the extraordinary amount of employment litigation, failed audit litigation, failed tax scheme litigation, failure to properly supervise staff, etc. etc. that these firms leave in their wake year after year. Yes, it’s always good to do a little self-reflection when a job doesn’t work out. But chances are there’s very little to learn from your experience except how to avoid a toxic work environment. The cowering wage slaves on this message board would have you believe that your misfortune is the result of some serious flaw deep within yourself. Nonsense. Like thousands of recent college graduates every year, you were seduced by the marketing hypnosis that the big four dish out at campus recruiting. Consider why the big four relies so heavily on campus recruiting year after year. Consider why they are now facing class action law suits for age discrimination in multiple states. Young people don’t yet have enough work experience to see the warning signs at these firms. They are cheap, easy prey. Most of them figure out they’re in a bad situation after their first year at a big four, but by that time, another crop of graduates is ready to be duped. Don’t dwell on your situation too much. After a few years, you’ll look back and realize that leaving the big four was a blessing.

Sixty109

lol Spoken like someone who couldn’t hack it. Like it or not B4 is accounting at the highest level. It’s not for everyone.

Big4Blowhard

It’s goddamn public accounting. You’re not savings lives and adding real value to anybody. If you really wanted a career with some bragging rights, you should’ve studied neuroscience

Bloviator

“Accounting at the highest level.” LOL! Is that like shoe salesman at the highest level?

MM

As others have said, there has to be a reason you were fired and you have to find out what it is so you will not repeat it. Talk to peers, examine yourself see if you can figure it out. Besides that try going back through your campus recruiting process to get another position

donna

Your experience is not as uncommon as you may think. There is not much diversity in the big four and if you have a personality, or if you do not look like every one else in the firm, you probably will not fit in and they might not accept you in the clique. I had a similar experience years ago when I moved up from a smaller company. I was a bit older, and I entered as a senior but it was clear no one really wanted to work with me and they replaced me on engagements frequently so that they could work with their friends. I got all the crap assignments that were hours away, with unpleasant people or in smelly factories. My mentor was a witch who embarrassed me every chance she got and threw me under the bus whenever she messed up. One busy season with those special people was all I had in me and I quit, but I watched newbies, kids I really liked, wash out after a few months. Those firms are filled with ambitious, anal retentive types, Frank and Claire Underwoods in the making, who chew up nice people and spit them in the toilet. I nicknamed one chick I worked with Satan because she took evil to a different level. Years later, I still remember how unpleasant my coworkers were. Not everyone is cut out for that nonsense. If you were fired, it just means that you are a decent person and you have balance in your life.

DoubleHelix

Why are people on this board so toxic? The back and forth vitriol and passive aggressiveness is sad. Is it from stress and burnout or are you all just bitter people?

C2C

Sorry that you are going through this. I would speak with HR and ask to be transferred to a new client. Your team may find out about it…but what else do you have to lose?

knucklehead

Hey! I am at big 4 too and about to get fired in my first year too.

knucklehead

Ok – so I am in my first year and I am about to get fired too – got put on PIP – so I am surprised you are not on one. Talking to recruiters, I am going to get paid about 15k more and there are soo many opportunities, especially as a CPA. You’ll be fine! In fact, a lot of companies will cream their pants to hire you.

EXB4ANON

yeah… every firm “Counsels out.” Generally, it’s because they over hire and then need to trim the fat. Network like crazy, because chances are, if you are being let go, several others if not quite a few others are being let go as well. Also, the other aspect here is the forced ranking. If you didn’t suck up enough or align with the right folks, and you also happen to be with group you don’t like or get didn’t mesh with, then you are pretty much SOL. Mainly because you will be the easiest to make a case against.

Firms know there is about to be blood in the water and you would have a good shot at making a move to another firm easily. So, I would try to figure out who was let go before you or who is on the same timeline and network with them so they bring you to the new firm. Another option is to begin seeking out folks you already know at other firms.

It’s a crappy situation, but I can tell you from experience, that it’s more of par for the course than a truly poor reflection on you. I happened to myself, and I ended up in advisory at another firm, solid ratings. I used the opportunity accelerate my career, and be promoted much more quickly to senior after a year in advisory, and then to industry and then to a manager role in industry. That said, I’m also making more money than quite a few others I know, and I made manager about a year or so faster than those who stayed and hoped their hard work would pay off.