Last week I went out and tested 7 different .45acp self defense rounds against an old bullet proof vest that I got from a buddy that had it during Desert Storm. As you would figure it was able to stop all of the rounds. I have attached a video of it on you tube with results. I will say that I was most impressed with how hard the Hydra Shok rounds hit-

__________________
“A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” ~George Washington
US Coast Guard 76-86 Semper Paratus

shoot it with a flat nose 357 mag or a 308 if its armored ..thats my philosify...oh and chris were not enthused by paddlers in our back yards when their direspectful...just like all groups theirs good and bad...not everyone that rides a harley is a hells angel. but most rafters around here are disrespectful of our residents and fishermen, think they own the river and even yell slurs at people when they pass...incest hillbillys stuff like that...they [QUOTE]smoke weed and drink the whole time their on the river, but if one of us residents is caught drinking a beer while were fishing all hell breaks loose with park service.. so by that were pretty sick of tourons and park service.

Even with the rounds not going through there is no doubt that it would have slowed down a BG- I would say that it would take a person out of the fight long enough for you to disengage if that was an option

First off, Winchester White Box is not really a "target" ammo in the sense that most of us would consider target ammo. It's not a "light" load, and it's not extra-super-specially consistent round to round so it's not what a bullseye competitor would choose to shoot for the national championship. Winchester calls it "target" because it's a FMJ bullet so it isn't a "personal defense" round. It's actually about the same, ballistically, as the original military issue ammo for the M1911, so I think he mischaracterized that round.

And for most of the hollow points he criticizes them for not expanding, but he wasn't shooting into gelatin he was shooting at cloth and Kevlar. Hollow points expand as a result of hydrostatic pressure. Shoot a dry medium and there's no fluid to resist compression, so nothing to generate expansion.

As to the Remington "Gold (sic) Saber" 230-grain +P+, I don't think so. I don't think Remington's 230-grain Golden Saber is even +P, and I seriously doubt they offer a +P+ version.

All in all, a slick presentation that mostly shows a guy who doesn't have all the facts.

As far as Winchester white box- by "target" ammo i was talking about the fact that if you were going to carry a weapon for use in a defensive situation you most likely would not load it with Winchester white box- therefore you would be using it for target shooting due to its price and availability.

Hollow points not expanding- I have never shot any into a Kevlar vest, and did not know how the projectile would act. I know, and state, that the expansion of the projectile would be less however did not expect them to be as little as they were. It was merely an observation.

And gold saber +P- I gave the wrong weight of the bullet- they are 185 +P
here is a link

There was an incident during the Tyler, TX shooting where a CCW/ firearms instructor tried to shoot Arroyo, the BG who was wearing body armor, with his 45acp several times on the back. The BG turned around and killed him.

As far as Winchester white box- by "target" ammo i was talking about the fact that if you were going to carry a weapon for use in a defensive situation you most likely would not load it with Winchester white box- therefore you would be using it for target shooting due to its price and availability.

Winchester White Box is 230-grain ball ammo that generates a muzzle velocity of approximately 820 feet-per-second ... which makes it essentially the exact same ammunition that carried the United States military through two world wars, Korea, Vietnam, and several other regional instances of unpleasantness. No serious target shooter (i.e. bullseye competitor) would use it because (a) it isn't consistent enough from one round to the next, and (b) because it has too much recoil. "Target" ammo generally uses a 185-gr or 200-gr lead semi-wadcutter bullet loaded to well below 800 feet-per-second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigO
As far as Winchester white box- by "target" ammo i was talking about the fact that if you were going to carry a weapon for use in a defensive situation you most likely would not load it with Winchester white box- therefore you would be using it for target shooting due to its price and availability.

Winchester White Box is 230-grain ball ammo that generates a muzzle velocity of approximately 820 feet-per-second ... which makes it essentially the exact same ammunition that carried the United States military through two world wars, Korea, Vietnam, and several other regional instances of unpleasantness. No serious target shooter (i.e. bullseye competitor) would use it because (a) it isn't consistent enough from one round to the next, and (b) because it has too much recoil. "Target" ammo generally uses a 185-gr or 200-gr lead semi-wadcutter bullet loaded to well below 800 feet-per-second.

I think what he means by target ammo, is ammo used for informal, paper punching shooting, or plinking. Not serious target shooting (i.e. bullseye competition).

__________________
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable."
-Sydney J. Harris

But if memory serves, the guy stopped trying to kill people and ran off.

Not really. A number of police had shot at him already and failed to stop him. I think he left because the shooting stopped, and he was trying to escape not because he was engaged. This was not a typical mass shooter. He was trying to murder his family.

__________________Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.

This email link is to reach site administrators for assistance, if you cannot access TFL via other means. If you are a TFL member and can access TFL, please do not use this link; instead, use the forums (like Questions, Suggestions, and Tech Support) or PM an appropriate mod or admin.

If you are experiencing difficulties posting in the Buy/Sell/Trade subforums of TFL, please read the "sticky" announcement threads at the top of the applicable subforum. If you still feel you are qualified to post in those subforums, please contact "Shane Tuttle" (the mod for that portion of TFL) via Private Message for assistance.

This email contact address is not an "Ask the Firearms Expert" service. Such emails will be ignored. If you have a firearm related question, please register and post it on the forums.