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Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshiba

This is an interesting and important topic, and has been brought up more frequently in recent threads.

I have only rudimentary Japanese language skills, so I will have to ask those of you here who have a deep understanding of the language and culture to contribute to this thread. Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and Chris Li come to mind, but anyone can pitch in.

I have always instinctively felt that John Stevens' translations left something to be desired. Of course, this is not to say that they have no value at all.

We may also have the benefit here of the translators being able to share how they arrived at their translation, or what they found lacking in the older translations.

I hope that we can all use this thread to compile these translations, so we can avoid the often tedious process of referring to and then searching for long lost threads, and then have a place to discuss them, compare them to older translations, and hopefully, come to a better understanding.

Here are a few translations that I didn't have to dig too deep to find, presented in no particular order, and with no regard to format (maybe something consistent will develop) or who made the translation (sorry):

Quote:

「私の武産の合気は、宗教から出て来たのかというとそうではない。真の武産から宗教を照らすのです。未完の宗教を完成へと導く案内であります」
"It would not be correct to say that my Takumusu Aiki emerged from religion. True budo illuminates religion. It guides incomplete religion to completion."

「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force

右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

(Old Translation)
"Manifest yang in your right hand, balance it with the yin of your left, and guide your partner."

＜念＞にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Actually, I think that all of the one's that you posted are mine. There are lot more on the private Sangenkai forums, but most of them seem to be coming out over time (that's fine). They're not all that polished, and fairly random - mostly done piecemeal as I come across something that's interesting (to me, at least).

Some of them are quite startling, in terms of what is laid out and how clear it is in the correct context. In other words, it's not just the translations themselves, a certain amount of background knowledge (outside of conventional Aikido knowledge) is really necessary to appreciate what's being talked about. That's probably a large part of the original problem.

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Hello Chris,
Much appreciation for the translation work you are doing. Dan quoted from you several times during his seminar here in Holland. I have a question for you, you mention the Hachikiri, the eight forces. Have you made any comparison between these and the eight forces of Chen style Tai Chi. They sound very similar. Since some of the language Dan is currently using has striking similarities to the Chinese underpinning of IP development I wondered again at the Chinese connection in Ueshiba"s in yo ho.
Regards, Alec

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Thanks Mark,
I had indeed noticed the opposite pairings. What I was curious about was wether, within the further translations, these pairings gain significance as primary manifestations, in a martial sense, of Aiki expressed through the body. In Chinese IP there are 4 primary directions of energy flow and four primary functions, each functions containing at least 2 pf the primary directions. In Chen Tai Chi silk reeling, the training of internal spirals flows through these directions and functions. Why did Ueshiba pick these descriptions specifically? Or could a whole lot of other descriptive combinations of opposites be named?
I apologize for my failing memory but somewhere in the creation myths of Japan is reference to the sword of ice and the sword of fire, two more descriptions of opposite powers. I believe Ueshiba quoted these as well but I believe Chris will have the source far better than I do. If Aiki is the unified state which remains inside the body, is it's manifestation the polar compliment of the type of force the opponent brings to bear?

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Alec Corper wrote:

Thanks Mark,
I had indeed noticed the opposite pairings. What I was curious about was wether, within the further translations, these pairings gain significance as primary manifestations, in a martial sense, of Aiki expressed through the body. In Chinese IP there are 4 primary directions of energy flow and four primary functions, each functions containing at least 2 pf the primary directions. In Chen Tai Chi silk reeling, the training of internal spirals flows through these directions and functions. Why did Ueshiba pick these descriptions specifically? Or could a whole lot of other descriptive combinations of opposites be named?
I apologize for my failing memory but somewhere in the creation myths of Japan is reference to the sword of ice and the sword of fire, two more descriptions of opposite powers. I believe Ueshiba quoted these as well but I believe Chris will have the source far better than I do. If Aiki is the unified state which remains inside the body, is it's manifestation the polar compliment of the type of force the opponent brings to bear?

Sorry that I can't help with the Chinese side of things. I don't have much background in them. However, I put part of your post in bold and underline to reference it. The answer is no. Think of aiki as you all ways being centrally held amidst infinite spirals of opposing forces. External forces are not part of creating that. IP/Aiki = you. Always. All ways.

I loved Dan's analogy of a washing machine motor/agitator. Inside a washing machine, you typically have a central device that has spiraling fins. When the motor runs, it turns that central piece one way, then back the other way. Now, picture having a bar welded onto the top of that piece so that it sticks outwards (middle of bar is welded to top of agitator piece). When the motor turns, one arm goes forward, one arm goes backwards. Grab either or both arms and you are moved by the motor.

Now, replace the motor with a 500 hp engine. When it turns, wham, it's quick and decisive. It turns back the other way in an instant, too. So, if you push or pull or grab that bar, does the engine care? Does the engine have to add polar complimentary force to function? No. Whether you grab the bar with the motor and it just moves you or you grab the bar with the engine and it rips your arms off, the entire functioning system does not really care how you grab, push, or pull.

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force"

I have been wondering if this is in someway related to taichi's peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao? wonder if there are answer(s) to such question?

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Phi Truong wrote:

"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force"

I have been wondering if this is in someway related to taichi's peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao? wonder if there are answer(s) to such question?

In Japanese: 動、静、引、弛、凝、解、分、合

I know little about Chinese, but from what I can gather on Google (and from what little I know of Tai Chi), Tai Chi uses different characters that are more technically related. It may well be that there are some close linkages.

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Michael Varin wrote:

This is an interesting and important topic, and has been brought up more frequently in recent threads.

I have only rudimentary Japanese language skills, so I will have to ask those of you here who have a deep understanding of the language and culture to contribute to this thread. Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and Chris Li come to mind, but anyone can pitch in.

I have always instinctively felt that John Stevens' translations left something to be desired. Of course, this is not to say that they have no value at all.

We may also have the benefit here of the translators being able to share how they arrived at their translation, or what they found lacking in the older translations.

I hope that we can all use this thread to compile these translations, so we can avoid the often tedious process of referring to and then searching for long lost threads, and then have a place to discuss them, compare them to older translations, and hopefully, come to a better understanding.

I am glad you realize the importance of correct translation
Whether this make sense to you or not...your welcome.
It has been rather an interesting 16 years; knowing what I know, seeing what I see in his movement and where it came from, talking about this stuff on the various forums and being told I was the one who didn't know what he was talking about. Years discussing the fact that Aikido is dual opposing spiral energy, aiki in yo ho, six directions, etc, and actually being laughed at here and elsewhere for stating what it was and that it is just about gone.

These new translations were a gift to me from Chris. I was floored when Chris read them in public for the first time and to hear my words as Ueshiba's own...(which have never been revealed in English) being read to me. Ueshiba's own words, sounding like he....was quoting me..... all these years.
We all had a grand laugh and I almost got emotional. All these years of arguing, and there they were all along; lying there in plain sight- much like all of Arikawa's books....locked up and left in the dust at Hombu.
They didn't know... and they didn't even know they should care. As Doshu told his friend a shihan now training this way "I can never do that...they would kill me. I have to do what my father did." So very sad.

I felt much the same about Sagawa's book. I had been shown and told certain things that I found alarming and all but unbelievable. I spent considerable money to get an early translation of that long before the book was published in English (something which Sagawa NEVER wanted to happen for now obvious reasons).
Only to find out everything I had been told and then had had been writing and saying on the forums for years; Never teach white people, Only teach one or two of your own, It is about body conditioning and not waza, Aiki is the union of opposites in you through -in yo ho and not about you and them...was proved to be absolutely spot on as well.

So here is another prediction for you.
As was demonstrated here starting at page three, it is a mistake to think that being able to read Japanese makes you capable of translating everything written in Japanese. In fact it was that type of thinking that led to the incredibly erroneous understandings you are hoping to correct. Further, if you had someone capable of understanding the terminology he was using as a well known training concept, it still would not help the vast majority of Aikido-ka reading, as they would not have a single clue how to make use of it.
And last...you can take your list of potential translators. They are not only NOT going to help, they will only muddy the waters and deny all clarity. They have no idea of a) what to look for b) what the hell the words actually mean in the broader scope of internal training that Ueshiba Morihei was pursuing and will debate the well known phrases and training concepts as if they were alien words randomly strung together that they...need to ponder and wonder about in order to establish the text. I would suggest leaving them to spend a few years educating themselves...as we move forward in agreement with the worlds internal artists; to whom the phrases and words and concepts are well known and rather mundane and would probably find laughable to debate.
It's okay not to know phrases. I didn't know certain Chinese phrases for similar concepts/ words in the TJMA. But you should recognize the concepts ad be able to communicate to other budo people. Something the early students of Aikido could not or would not do.
It is also okay not to know the lingo, but when tested by real experts be able to demonstrate competency. Something which aikido-ka fail at regularly.

This is only going to be important and remain important, when the community embraces that it was not taught these concepts, (as Chiba and Stevens admit..we didn't have a clue what he was talking about) and cannot demonstrate competency in them either. This step is crucial to moving forward.
Telling people to "Move their insides..." and leaving them to struggle, will no longer suffice. Established teachers are going to be increasingly pressured to teach or people will go elsewhere to learn.

So, regarding the translations....
I would suggest leaving the work to just a few people who are both professional translators and who are training internals with people who know what the hell they are doing. There are not an abundance of those around these parts and not one of them they are learning from are in Aikido.
Yet...if you ask them they will deny all definitions the aikido community is trying to force down their throats.
They will tell you flat out, that this...is...aikido; through and through.
And as it turns out; is the exact definition almost word for word, that I have been telling you aikido is and always was for 16 years. Now coming from the mouth of your founder. It never could have been otherwise. It was so obvious in his movement and in his pedigree.
It's a new day.
I am working on a Book, to not only reveal these translations, but to place them in context to the Chinese teachings, demonstrating they were never O sensei's to begin with some are pure Daito ryu, some are Chinese, (some of his Doka are almost word for word copies of Chinese teachings) and then discuss how to practice them.
Cheers
Dan
P.S. I am well aware of others who have been discussing some of this as well. But considering the animosity often demonstrated, I am keeing the discussion to only what I have been saying.

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

I am working on a Book, to not only reveal these translations, but to place them in context to the Chinese teachings, demonstrating they were never O sensei's to begin with some are pure Daito ryu, some are Chinese, (some of his Doka are almost word for word copies of Chinese teachings) and then discuss how to practice them.
.

what will be the title of the book? and when you plan to publish/make available? is there a pre-order? if it's your autobiography, then i don't want to read it, because who would want to read about partying stuffs. i can do review and write stuffs like "what a waste of time!" or "he doesn't know what he's talking about!" "there is not suppose to be aiki on aikido and we like it that way!"

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Phi Truong wrote:

what will be the title of the book? and when you plan to publish/make available? is there a pre-order? if it's your autobiography, then i don't want to read it, because who would want to read about partying stuffs. i can do review and write stuffs like "what a waste of time!" or "he doesn't know what he's talking about!" "there is not suppose to be aiki on aikido and we like it that way!"

Phil:

Rumor has it that the title will be: "The Good News Is That You Suck!"

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

It seems like you guys say "you suck" alot . Is that part of the training?

How can we ever expect to improve unless we acknowledge that we suck a lot? Sincere training should always involved checking your ego in at the door so that you can openly embrace your inadequacies. Seems to me like people are too insecure to admit that they simply suck at certain things. It if far easier and politically correct to play in the land of niceness, but far harder to progress. What ever happened to being happy with knowing that you suck in something? I have always used that as a POSITIVE impetus to improve.

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

It's all light hearted Mary. I say I suck as well.
I am experiencing something almost unique in the budo world, where I have Koryu, Aikido, Karate, Systema, BJJers and MMAers and ICMA teachers and students all in one room training under a nobody. So to keep everyone from getting factionalized and/or uppity and or embarrassed that they might have to "represent," I make everyone remember that we all suck. It's great to see an Aikido Shihan, next to a Karate 5th Dan, in between a ICMA teacher...and no one can do what we are working on. It actually helps each person feel like a kid at play again without any embarrassment that they may fail.
It's all good.
Dan

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote:

How can we ever expect to improve unless we acknowledge that we suck a lot?

Hi Marc -

Interesting. I don't suck. I'm very good at what I do. Nevertheless, I realize that I'll always have lots of room above the level that I'm currently at for improvement.

Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote:

Sincere training should always involved checking your ego in at the door so that you can openly embrace your inadequacies.

So check your ego at the door but bring your anti-ego in with you? Would it not be preferable to check both at the door and approach training with a neutral mind-set unburdened by the baggage of judgement?

Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote:

Seems to me like people are too insecure to admit that they simply suck at certain things.

From a psychological standpoint it seems to me that admitting there is always more to learn and discover is healthier than the self-deprecating "I suck at that" attitude.

Quote:

Marc Abrams wrote:

It if far easier and politically correct to play in the land of niceness, but far harder to progress.

I don't see how political correctness has anything to do with it. We're talking about self image here.What's politically correct about not beating ones self over the head with all kinds of negative internal dialog?

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

I don't see how political correctness has anything to do with it. We're talking about self image here.What's politically correct about not beating ones self over the head with all kinds of negative internal dialog?

Best,

Ron

When you're actually there, it's not negative at all. Also, pretty much everybody in the room does actually suck at what's being taught - if not, then no need to be there.

To follow up on what Dan mentioned - it is pretty unique, and it's enormously refreshing, to get out of the little budo boxes that most people put themselves in.

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

Hi Marc -We're talking about self image here. Would it not be preferable to check both at the door and approach training with a neutral mind-set unburdened by the baggage of judgement?
Interesting. I don't suck. I'm very good at what I do.

Best,
Ron

I moved your comments around for clarity
That's very judgmental.
Who told you you were very good at what you do?
Compared to whom?
How did you arrive at such a conclusion?
By it's very nature it is judgmental and places others who are not as good beneath you.....
Fainting from shock...splat!!
Good grief, Ron lighten up.
Anyone with a brain can read and tell that we are all having fun. We don't reeaally tell people they suck!! Just that they suck!
Maybe I just don't attract the fainting violate types. These folks are a self selecting, confident, research mindset, type of profile. From young to old, women and men, we somehow managed not to think ill of each other and make friends...go figure!!
Dan
P.S. can we stay on topic please!!

Re: Correctly Translating and Understanding the Works and Teachings of Morihei Ueshib

Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:

It seems like you guys say "you suck" alot . Is that part of the training?

yup. it's to avoid negativity and awkwardness. it really is a complement. it's a guy thing. here is the logic (well, actually not, but it's a sort of beer logic). if you said you are good, then you don't have anything to learn so you don't need to be there. if you said you are aren't good and aren't bad, i.e. essentially neutral, then you sort of stay in place and no motivation to go anywhere or do anything about it. so if you said you suck, then essentially put yourself at the bottom which give you the incentive to climb up/out or whatever, i.e. have some place to go and something to do, i.e. you are in the right place to learn new stuffs.

remind me of a friend of mine. saw him the first time at aikido. some scruffy looking white guy walked into the dojo dressing room. he looked at me and started to tell off color jokes that would have offended every race, color, creed and animal kingdom. i looked back at him laugh out loud and started to tell redneck jokes. he looked back at me and laughed. we have been friend since. in asia, there is a fruit, rambutan, that looks ugly as hell, but inside it's very sweet and tasty. and an asian saying that translated to something along the line: what looks good might kill you.