Misty eyed, I sat this morning listening to music of my youth, the protest songs of the early 1960's. Performers such as Peter, Paul and Mary singing "Where Have all The Flowers Gone?", Joan Baez "We Shall Overcome"

and Barry McGuire "Eve of Destruction", and many others.

You're old enough to kill but not for
votin'

You don't believe in war, but what's that gun you're totin'

And even the Jordan river has bodies floatin'

But you tell me over and over and over again my friend

Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction

And I couldn't help thinking to myself that this music is as relevant today, as it was then, and probably ever will be. Our young men and women are beng sent to foreign shores to fight for their country in foreign wars, and in the name of what? Freedom? Democracy? Humanity? Or simply wealth, derived, probably, from oil?

Why is humankind permitting the attrocities that are being committed around the world by other humans? Why are we allowing millions to die through malnutrition and disease while we gird our loins for war?

We are the authors of own demise, and it's time that that concept was disassembled. We need to put down our weapons and find new ways to help those in need, such as in Africa and on other continents before it's too late.

Yes, I know, it's an unrealistic day dream of mine, but it's one that I need to cling to for the rest of my life, we all must never give up hoping for we surely are "On the eve of destruction."

He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,He fights with missiles and with spears.He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,He's been a soldier for a thousand years.

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.And he knows he shouldn't kill,And he knows he always will,Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,He's fighting for France,He's fighting for the USA,And he's fighting for the Russians,And he's fighting for Japan,And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,He's fighting for the Reds,He says it's for the peace of all.He's the one who must decide,Who's to live and who's to die,And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,How would Hitler have condemned him at Labau?Without him Caesar would have stood alone,He's the one who gives his bodyAs a weapon of the war,And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,His orders come from far away no more,They come from here and there and you and me,And brothers can't you see,This is not the way we put an end to war.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

I do love the music toyomotor. And I know you will forgive me for inserting a conspiracy into your thread.

Elvis was drafted and you remember the big blow up when Muhammad Ali refused to enlist. Do you recall any of the 'Hippie' bands losing a member to the draft?

Many of the most popular artist of the time localized in Laurel Canyon, California came from military families including Jim Morrison, Crosby Stills Nash and Young and others listed at the link.

To your point on war, unending war. In tribal communities there are two types of chiefs. One chief is a commander he becomes chief because of a family lineage or because he proves himself to be the most worthy. He decides marriage arrangements and makes most decisions for the whole tribe.

The other type is selected by the tribe but he doesn't have any power over the tribe through forced obedience. He is seen as the go- to- authority by the tribe because he is respected and his wisdom is valued. He doesn't tell people what to do he offers his best solutions and the tribe is free to embrace or reject that advice.

I think forced obedience, inevitable since the age of empires is directly responsible for repeated aggression. Most of us are struggling in our own family units and not thinking of sending the best of us to die in foreign fields. We are depleting our population in the US of able bodied healthy young men and women. Even if they come home as we have seen it's never the same for the soldier or the citizens.

The pace of life is accelerating at a terrifying rate. Statistics show a decline in violent war related death since WWII but what about the next 60 years?

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 06:26

Vanuatu

I suppose I'm somewhat of a dichotemy.

Although I like the music, I marched in support of our troops during the Viet Nam War.

Make no mistake-I was, and still am, staunchly supporting our troops who go to war. I like the lyrics of most of the songs because they say just what I think, our troops doing as their country orders them, they joined knowing the likelihood of active service, but, nevertheless, now that I'm an old man, I don't see war as the means of bringing peace to the world.

Opinions change over the years don't they?

And we also had a rock star who was conscripted to serve in Viet Nam-which he did in a Cavalry Unit. His career was basically stuffed because of his service.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 16:00

toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

I suppose I'm somewhat of a dichotemy.

Although I like the music, I marched in support of our troops during the Viet Nam War.

Make no mistake-I was, and still am, staunchly supporting our troops who go to war.

The troops must have our support. If we are nationalists then so be it, no turning back now.

toyomotor wrote:

I like the lyrics of most of the songs because they say just what I think, our troops doing as their country orders them, they joined knowing the likelihood of active service, but, nevertheless, now that I'm an old man, I don't see war as the means of bringing peace to the world.

Opinions change over the years don't they?

I think yes in most cases opinions change. One grows weary of the world and the suffering but we honor the servicemen and women even as we sicken at the thought of more war.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 16:07

toyomotor "And we also had a rock star who was conscripted to serve in Viet Nam-which he did in a Cavalry Unit. His career was basically stuffed because of his service."

The link is about the crazy goings on in Laurel Canyon Ca. during the 1960's. Many of the musicians we all remember were part of a group of hippies, musicians and actors. The musicians here mentioned were children of high level military personnel, who were not drafted.

Judee Lynn Sill, who was once favorably compared to such other Laurel Canyon singer/songwriters as Joni Mitchell, Judi Collins and Carole King. By the time of her death on November 23, 1979, however, she had been all but forgotten, and not a single obituary was published to note her passing.

In the late 1960s, with her addictions apparently temporarily curbed, Sill joined the Laurel Canyon scene, where she attempted to forge a career as a singer/songwriter. Her first big break came when she sold the song “Lady O” to The Turtles (yet another Laurel Canyon band to hit it big in the mid-1960s; best known for the hit single “Happy Together,” The Turtles were led by lead vocalist/songwriter Howard Kaylan, who happened to be, small world that it is, a cousin of Frank Zappa’s manager and business partner, Herb Cohen).

Sill became the first artist signed to David Geffen’s fledgling Asylum record label.

The first single from the album, “Jesus Was a Crossmaker,” was produced by Graham Nash, whom she opened for on tour following the album’s release.

Sill’s second album, 1973’s “Heart Food,” was even more of a commercial disappointment.

in 1974 she began work on a third album in Monkee Mike Nesmith’s recording studio.

she abandoned the project and promptly disappeared without a trace.

It is alleged that she was seriously injured when her car was rear-ended by actor Danny Kaye, causing her to suffer from chronic back pain

the day after Thanksgiving, 1979, Judee Sill, the last surviving member of her family, was found dead in a North Hollywood apartment.

Judee began to realize that “there was a part of her that wasn’t under her conscious control.” I’m guessing that Phil Ochs, and quite a few other characters in this story, could relate to that.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 19:11

It's four in the morning and once more the dawnin

Just woke up the wanting in me

Wishing I'd never met her, knowing if I'd forget herHow much better off she would be

The longer I hold on and the longer this goes onThe harder that it's gonna beBut it's four in the morning and once more the dawningJust woke up the wanting in me

I've never deserved her, God knows when I hurt herThat's the last thing that I want to doShe tries but she can't tell how she feelsBut I know too well what she's going through

If I love her so much, I don't know why I can't doThe right thing and just let her beBut it's four in the morning and once more the dawningJust woke up the wanting in me

Morningtown Ride, the Carnival is Over and so on. Music of my youth, and non political.

Of more modern times, I like Enya and Adelle.

As a man once said,"I like both kinds of music, Country and Western." And so do I.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 00:36

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 02:29

I like sixties music, but socially, things were very serious with the folk music, lot of energy in earnest about social issues, and then the left blinked, and became frivolous, about drugs, tuning out, turning on. taking LSD for communion, which is fun, but hardly serious or truly spiritual. The '70s is a lot darker than the 60s and part of that is it doesn't have the optimism of the 60s. 70s has all of the excess, but none of the ideals. I like the musics of the 60s and the 70s, but that doesn't mean I fail to recognize that some of it damaging. Once upon a time, bars and restaurants got live music if anything, now everything is canned. I like the BeeGees, but part of that trend was the rise of disc jockeys, and playing recordings instead of something live.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 02:49

The Legacy of the CIA’s Secret LSD Experiments on America

Newly unclassified information blows wide the U.S. government's covert operation to dose hundreds of unwitting Americans with LSD in the 1950s and '60s.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 07:23

John Fogerty actually was drafted into the Army

I didn't know that.

I wasn't so lucky, I wanted to join, but was under age and my parents wouldn't sign my enlistment papers.

Many of us young people at the time fully supported the troops while at the same time condemning the fact that they were in Viet Nam.

Should they have been? Ultimately, I don't know.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 16:00

Not really music, but I really liked the Cheech and Chong tapes, and in fact used one of their tracks in my work in the Drug Squad many years ago.

I'm relying on you remembering Cheech and Chong for this.(Remember "Dave? Dave? dave's not here man.")

We approached a suspects front door and I knocked loudly. A voice said,"Whose there man?" I answered, "Hey, it's the pigs man", and he immediately opened the door and I said, "Dig it man, you're busted".

He couldn't see the funny side of it for a while, but then took it all in good fun. He was arrested and charged with possssion of Cannabis, declaring that we wouldn't trick him that easy next time.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 23:10

toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu.

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein

Obviously wasn't married with children.

Nope, "Jean Klein was born in Berlin and spent his childhood in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brno" rel="nofollow - Brno and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague" rel="nofollow - Prague . He studied musicology and medicine in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna" rel="nofollow - Vienna and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin" rel="nofollow - Berlin , becoming a physician. Having left Germany in 1933 for France, he secretly worked with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance" rel="nofollow - French Resistance in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War" rel="nofollow - Second World War . After the war, Klein again left for India to study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga" rel="nofollow - Yoga and Advaita Vedanta for three years. During those three years he met a spiritual teacher of Advaita, Pandit Veeraraghavachar Rao, a scholar at the Sanskrit College in Bangalore, and returned to the West to become a spiritual teacher himself. He died in 1998 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Barbara,_California" rel="nofollow - Santa Barbara, California .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Klein_%28spiritual_teacher%29#cite_note-2" rel="nofollow - [2] Several of his disciples, including https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Francis_Lucille&action=edit&redlink=1" rel="nofollow - Francis Lucille , went on to become spiritual teachers themselves." -Wiki

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 23:16

toyomotor wrote:

Not really music, but I really liked the Cheech and Chong tapes, and in fact used one of their tracks in my work in the Drug Squad many years ago.

I'm relying on you remembering Cheech and Chong for this.(Remember "Dave? Dave? dave's not here man.")

We approached a suspects front door and I knocked loudly. A voice said,"Whose there man?" I answered, "Hey, it's the pigs man", and he immediately opened the door and I said, "Dig it man, you're busted".

He couldn't see the funny side of it for a while, but then took it all in good fun. He was arrested and charged with possssion of Cannabis, declaring that we wouldn't trick him that easy next time.

Yea I remember. How about Eddie Torres- ET the Extra Testicle?

Marijuana is not legal in Tasmania now is it? It's legal in my state and between drivers texting and talking on the phone we know have knuckleheads smoking bongs while driving! Not even discreetly puffing on a joint these idiots are using two hands to smoke, no brains to drive. I call the 5-O and report them.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 02:10

Vanuatu

Re Jean Klein-I was being facetious.

No, Cannabis use is not legal in Tasmania yet, but very soon medicinal cannabis use will be. Apparently it has curative powers for some ailments, and the cannabis will be low in THC.

As for driving offences, hoons and using a mobile while driving are the current hates at the moment. The hoons (idiots who do burn outs and street races) cars should, imo, be impounded and crushed before their eyes. They then should be disqualified from holding a drivers license or owning a motor vehicle for 12 months.

Draconian, absolutely, but better that than another Sarah Paino. (I'll tell you more about her in a PM, as we're going off topic here.)

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 04:00

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 13:28

Vanuatu

How do you copy UTube links like the one above, to forum posts. I've tried several times, and failed.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 18:17

toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

How do you copy UTube links like the one above, to forum posts. I've tried several times, and failed.

you will get an option to "Copy video URL" right click on "Copy video URL" you will see a link flash like a chain link.

Then go back to your message screen at WH and click paste, this is your URL from the video in your message;

https://youtu.be/b1zgmM2lalo

Now, add TUBE in brackets [ ] before link. (If I add TUBE in the brackets here, you will only see a fuzzy video that won't play.)

Then add [/TUBE] after the link.

Cut all that, it is the Youtube file name

Go to the film strip icon between picture and special characters.

Copy link with added brackets that you just cut

in the space provided for "Youtube file name" click OK

Now here is what messes us up, you end up with double TUBE brackets when you go back to message box

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>

Just delete one from each side. Go to Preview and you will see the video is copied.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 19:09

Vanuatu

Thank you for that.

Which bridge did Billy Joe McAllister jump from?

And no Googling!

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 22:51

I didn't google probably didn't spell right, Tallahatchee?

you are welcome!

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 02:40

Apparently the song sparked some controversy, with people believing that the lyrics related to an actual event and asking;

1. What did he throw from the bridge, was it a baby?

2. Why did he commit suicide? Was it because of what he had just done?

No one has any idea. And, even more mysteriously, after having a hit with Ode to Billy Joe, Bobby Gentry retired from the music industry almost immediately, refusing interviews, and, basically was never heard of again.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 04:35

toyomotor wrote:

Apparently the song sparked some controversy, with people believing that the lyrics related to an actual event and asking;

1. What did he throw from the bridge, was it a baby?

2. Why did he commit suicide? Was it because of what he had just done?

No one has any idea. And, even more mysteriously, after having a hit with Ode to Billy Joe, Bobby Gentry retired from the music industry almost immediately, refusing interviews, and, basically was never heard of again.

Sounds like a secret life to me.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 04:39

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 16:09

Obviously written for a male singer, but Joan Baez does the song justice more than anyone else, not that I've hear many other versions.

I like most of her songs, especially of the protest era.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2017 at 07:08

Being old can be sad. I've come to the realisation that I am of the generation whose musicians sang songs, the words of which could be heard comfortably and understood.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 00:52

That's one thing I love about Pink Floyd, they wanted you to hear the words and music.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 02:58

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 03:26

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2017 at 06:31

RIP Fats.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:07

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:09

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:11

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:15

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:17

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:20

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:22

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:26

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:28

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 02:36

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 06:07

I see, another quiet day at work.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 05:14

I had a hankering for Hippies.

The Richie Havens viddy is my favorite Woodstock performance. Joan Baez had great chemistry with Bob Dylan. John Lennon wrote the song "Norwegian Wood" about Joan.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 13 May 2018 at 21:54

I feel sorry for the locals of 'Woodstock.' Like a herd of locusts, the dirty hippies descended upon Woodstock. I am not sure tearing up the place is exactly peaceful, albeit, I admit it was like an accident waiting to happen, which surprise! didn't happen. Woodstock's success breeded other attempts, like Altamont, which were not so successful.

But, I do like the performances at Woodstock, they're authentic for the time, I just don't like the pseudo-nostalgia that worships it. (husband talking to kids: "and when I was at woodstock everybody got a long." Wife: "who are you kidding? you weren't at Woodstock!" Husband: "well, I could have been!" (paraphrased from a Doonesbury cartoon). It was the Woodstock generation where everyone "could have been" at woodstock (but wasn't).

But I am grateful to watch the film, that way I don't have to smell the the 3+ day body odor of the hippies (except maybe the skinny dippers).

But, thank you Vanuatu for your selection of videos. I didn't know that there was large connection between Baez and Dylan, besides their folk music background.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 14:55

The Hippies could not have known that the CIA wanted them on LSD. I'm sure they felt a great rebellion taking place against the MAN. Which is why so many people want in on the collective experience even if they weren't at the event, right?

There is a nice quality to the music, very spiritual at times. Yet utterlyunappealing to imagine using the bathroom or eating anything. Must be getting old 'cause that's a deal breaker for me.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 02:08

I don't think it was the CIA that got the hippies on acid, nor did they get Cary Grant and his wife to experiment with it (under the care of a psychologist).

All those who rebelled against everybody over 30, are now over 30 (or dead). I think the rebellion was pretty easy for a lot, camped out in the University, or getting what was it? 5, 6, 7 deferments like President Donald "Duck" did.

One thing I do not like, is that there was no President and will be no President who had combat experience from Vietnam.

But, I do like music of the 1960s in general, and artists should wear their emotions on their sleeves, but they also shouldn't take themselves too seriously.

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 02:45

One thing I do not like, is that there was no President and will be no President who had combat experience from Vietnam.

And there's not likely to be either. But, Afghanistan is still likely to be active for many years to come.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 03:41

toyomotor wrote:

<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">One thing I do not like, is that there was no President and will be no President who had combat experience from Vietnam.

</span>

<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;"></span>

<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">And there's not likely to be either. But, Afghanistan is still likely to be active for many years to come.</span>

Unfortunately soldiers came back to an ungrateful public spewing venom and misdirected rage, and our government discouraged treatment of addiction for veterans as only bureaucratic red tape can. If the guy wasn't already shattered enough after combat or worse, coming home was no peace at all. John Kerry was 'brave' enough to tell congress about killing civilians and the veterans of that war were disgraced but in fact they followed orders. It looks self aggrandizing when you see the film of John Kerry help the US government pin the pointless killing on the rank and file.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 04:25

Looking back at most of the music created during this period, there's not a lot to criticise about peace, love and understanding.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 May 2018 at 20:58

But if you think that peace is a common goal,

that goes to show how little you know.

Peace, Love and Harmony,

Peace, love and harmony,

very nice, very nice, very nice.

but maybe in the next world.

(Death of a Disco Dancer, by the Smiths)

There is a film clip at Berkeley where people are singing, "We shall overcome." and the song metamorphosizes into Yellow Submarine (naturally, it is not staged), that is kind of what happened in the 60s. From earnest, protest songs to silliness.

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 May 2018 at 13:27

All we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chanceAll we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chanceAll we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chanceAll we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chanceAll we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chanceAll we are saying is give peace a chance

All we are saying is give peace a chanceAll we are saying is give peace a chance

John Lennon

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 26 May 2018 at 18:30

Is that "all" you are saying??

Now Jefferson Airplane, "don't you want somebody to love?"

I can agree with that. Simple, direct, pure, 60s.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 May 2018 at 13:57

Culture is shaping music as music is shaping culture. I do think that US government/CIA was responsible for introducing LSD to the world at large.

fransicosan, do you deny that President Ford paid damages to people who were dosed by the CIA? That information has been declassified and multiple news organizations have covered the story.

Why did protests against the war in Vietnam end? The public opinion remained fimrly against the war and then against the soldiers as John Kerry positioned himself for government job. He publicly assured the country that these rogue soldiers were the problem in Vietnam. Don't you find it absurd?

The music is great toyomotor all the more likely the result of altered states of consciousness. The Laurel Canyon California connection was the underground for distribution among so called hippies. Of course it didn't start with young people but with fringe element groups like performance artists. And rebellion was very popular with Hollywood types who invariably mix with musicians. Is there another explanation for how LSD went from being on a shelf in a lab to being common as horse poo?

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 May 2018 at 03:32

Having lived through that era, and being very pro military, I nevertheless disagreed with our involvement in Viet Nam, I saw it as an extension of the McCarthyist "Reds Under The Bed" syndrome.

Music wise, the children of yesterdays beatniks became hippies. I'm not saying it was as simple as that, but the youth of the 60's found that they could rebel against the establishment and they did.

Along with rebelliousness came a sense of exploration, young people found themselves unfettered to the rules of the past, "Sex, Drugs'n Rock'n Roll" was the meme. Marijuana was good, mushrooms were better, and hell man, acid was the way to go. But it didn't stop there. Heroin and cocaine had been around for decades, and some young people decided to try them out, only to become entangled in a web from which they would never escape.

Acid Rock and songs like "Miss Heroin" encouraged people to experiment and they did not only with drugs but with music, and with a high degree of success.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 29 May 2018 at 20:22

True, none of our Presidents ever served in Vietnam. But there were unsuccessful presidential contenders (John McCain and John Kerry) who served there. After Kerry returned, he was opposed to the war, and became a leader of the group "Vietnam Veterans Against the War". I think it's important to keep in mind that when Kerry, in some of his early speeches back in those days referred to atrocities committed during the war by American troops, he wasn't referring to rank-and-file American troops. Sometimes his remarks have been taken out of context by political opponents. Atrocities against civilians happen in all wars, including Vietnam.

-------------Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 May 2018 at 17:21

Hi Windemere, having seen Kerry's speech to congress multiple times I apprehend John Kerry's meaning as many others do, as pinning the unlawful war time killing of Vietnamese civilians on the rank and file. Atrocities in Vietnam or any war are the responsibility of the aggressor and no one proved to me that our government wasn't the aggressor. Shameless for Kerry to generate more ill will in the country at the time and consistent with his later career.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 31 May 2018 at 03:26

So, who were the rebels, the ones advocating, "sex, drugs and rock and roll" or the young, Buckleyite conservatives? Who's in the herd, and who is paddling upstream? David Horowitz was a radical (Marxist radical), who became disenchanted with the radicals and became a Neo-Con. He was bothered how the protesters became out of sight, out of mind after the American military withdrew from Vietnam. He felt that radicals were not so much concerned about the killing, as they were getting on their soapbox and getting high and mighty (and just high). I mean, if you look at what happened after the American phase of the war, the invasion of the South, the boat people, the Khmer Rouge, and the aggression of war of Vietnam in Laos, and Cambodia, and against China. Where was the complaints of the left about those things??? Where did the protesters in the streets go? Like I said, out of sight, out of mind. If they truly were concerned with making the world a better place, what about Cambodia and Pol Pot??

I like the music of the '60s, its wonderful, but all the sanctimonious posturing....

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 31 May 2018 at 14:48

franciscosan wrote:

So, who were the rebels, the ones advocating, "sex, drugs and rock and roll" or the young, Buckleyite conservatives? Who's in the herd, and who is paddling upstream? David Horowitz was a radical (Marxist radical), who became disenchanted with the radicals and became a Neo-Con. He was bothered how the protesters became out of sight, out of mind after the American military withdrew from Vietnam. He felt that radicals were not so much concerned about the killing, as they were getting on their soapbox and getting high and mighty (and just high). I mean, if you look at what happened after the American phase of the war, the invasion of the South, the boat people, the Khmer Rouge, and the aggression of war of Vietnam in Laos, and Cambodia, and against China. Where was the complaints of the left about those things??? Where did the protesters in the streets go? Like I said, out of sight, out of mind. If they truly were concerned with making the world a better place, what about Cambodia and Pol Pot??

I like the music of the '60s, its wonderful, but all the sanctimonious posturing....

John Kerry "happened" to the leftist hippies. Let's just ostracize and demonize the rank and file, Kerry told special senate committee about the heinous abuse he witnessed by his fellow soldiers, after 3 whole months of sacrifice and his rescue by one of those psycho killer US soldiers. Then Kerry wants to talk presidential election when he has the senates attention? DISGUSTING and CONSISTENT!

In addition to the treacherous climbing of John Kerry, there was drug abuse, lots of STD's and petty crime. Hippies were happy to blame veterans of the war as they firmly attached themselves to the government teat. I know a couple who were at Haight Ashbury in 1968 and were it not for the government dole and church charity they would have starved bc they were taking any kind of drug offered to them and committed petty crimes to fuel drug habit. This is well documented throughout the hippie 'movement'. Same kind of fade in passion already obvious in the school shooting teen protest- media spawn.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 01:27

Wasn't it John Kerry who went to Ortega's Nicaragua in the 1980s? Or am I thinking about someone else? If it was him, he tried to conduct foreign policy as a mere congressman. The Sandinistas welcomed him, but they knew he was useless in that regard, and Reagan was not going to be affected by his attempt. I had a friend who studied international relations and he thought that Kerry had weighed in on every international issue for the last 20 years (30 now) and had never been right about them.

My mistake, it was Biden who has weighed in on every international issue, and never been right, according to a friend.

There is footage of Berkeley with the camera going around in the crowd, and people singing, "We Shall Overcome." Think of the tune, now think of it as 'metamorphosing' into "Yellow Submarine." That is what happened on the footage, no tricks, just one song flowing into the other. Seriousness, earnestness, great moral intentions into silliness, triviality. To me that is what seems to have happened in the '60s.

Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 22:12

Thanks for all the previous posts. I remember Kerry's Winter Soldier speech from April 71, before Congress, pretty well. Kerry was a lieutenant in the Army Reserve when he gave the speech, and was dressed in fatigues and combat boots. This was quite a change from the usual senior military officers, who'd addressed Congress in their dress uniforms. He was also a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, an anti-war group. Listening to the speech, I didn't catch anything negative about veterans. He was criticizing the American government's military actions in Vietnam, and he referred to atrocities that American troops had committed against Vietnamese civilians. But he didn't blame or criticise the troops themselves. He blamed the governmental leadership in Washington D.C. (some of whom he referred to by name). He felt the War was useless and unnecessary.

Kerry later became a conventional Democratic senator, but he remained supportive of veterans. I remember what the V.A. medical clinic was like in my homecity in those days. It was a very rigid, authoritarian organization, similar to the military itself. The administration there was more concerned with enforcing their rules and regulations than with providing health-care to veterans. There was an awful lot of redtape. A lot of Vietnam-era veterans just became frustrated and disillusioned with it, and stopped going to it altogether. (Now there were many good employees working there, then and now. I'm not criticizing the rank-and-file employees, who were sincere and dedicated. But the administration there, at that time, wasn't helpful or supportive of veterans). In the Nineties, after the first Iraq War, there was a second wave of combat veterans, and they faced the same problems with the V.A. as the Vietnam vets did.

Kerry helped to establish and fund an alternative Vets' Centre, away from the regular V.A. Medical Clinic, that veterans with problems could go to, receive some help and counselling, and some basic medical care. It wasn't equipped to be able to provide specialized medical-care, but the counsellors there were supportive of veterans, and tried to convince them to return to the regular V.A. for medical-care, helped as much as they could to get them through the redtape, and kept telling them "not to give up" and "bear with it" when they ran into problems with the V.A. I know that this is just talk rather than anything else, but it really did help out some vets (buth Vietnam and Gulf War vets), and convince them to go back to the V.A. to get some medical care. Kerry himself visited the Centre several times, and spoke with veterans who were there ( I was present myself during one of his visits). These visits weren't publicity opportunities for him. They weren't announced in advance, and weren't always publicized. Kerry drove across the state himself to come, he wasn't chauffered. This alternative Vets' Centre lasted for about 10 years or so, until it was eventually discontinued. But by that time (about 2007 or so) the regular V.A. had become more welcoming toward veterans, and was trying to cope with things.

World War II veterans returned home to the prosperity and expanding economy of the Fifties. Vietnam veterans returned home to minimum-wage jobs and layoffs, as have the Gulf War vets). I live in a medium-sized, working-class city that's been in decline ever since the Sixties, and a significant number of late-sixties and early-seventies hippies were themselves Vietnam vets. Most of them never joined the American Legion or the V.F.W. They had ambiguous feelings about their service, a mixture of pride and camaraderie, but also feelings of guilt over some of the things they'd seen and done over there. War maybe seems glorious and honorable at times, but it's also brutal and ruthless. There's no easy answers. I think that this was the message that Kerry was trying to convey in the Winter Soldier speech.

My own feelings are that Kerry, after he entered the Senate, ought to have been more concerned with the financial problems that his constituents were undergoing (minimum-wage jobs, layoffs, no health-insurance or access to healthcare, no way to buy a house or support a family,etc.). But his first love was always foreign-policy and diplomacy, and that's what he focused on.

I also like the Sixties protest songs that have been mentioned in this thread. There was also during this time one song "Ballad of the Green Berets" that was patriotic rather than antiwar. But even that song more supported the Green Berets themselves rather than the government.

It's true that after the Vietnam War ended, the hippies soon faded away, except for maybe a few oldtimers who are still around in their sixties and seventies. But the protest songs of the Sixties morphed into Bruce Springsteen's songs of the Seventies and Eighties, which chronicled the passing away of the American Dream, and were just as cynical about the government as the protest songs were.

-------------Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 21:26

I suggest watching the movie, "Best Year of Our Lives," for an impression of WWII veterans coming home, won the Academy Award for 1946. Point is, it wasn't all hunky dory coming home in WWII. I am not sure how Korea was.

But I really enjoy the Woodstock movie, which is very authentic '60s. Even the mistakes are authentic. In trying to recreate the time, there is always something about the recreation that is not authentic. The imitation itself is not perfect, if for no other reason, it is an imitation. One can digitally mix and remaster a recording, but even then, especially then it would not be authentic, but a simulacra. A simulation is an imitation of something that exists. An simulacra is an imitation of something that does not exist. Remaster it, and take out the mistakes, the feedback, the banter, and the result would be less, not more of the essence of such a performance.

Scorcesei worked on the Woodstock movie. In watching it, I feel really sorry for the people of Woodstock, they did not deserve the hordes of hippies descending on their town. Woodstock was an accident waiting to happen, an ultimately it did not happen, then, it happened later at Altamont. (Gimme Shelter).

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 02:09

The hopes and fears of a generation were reflected in their music, which in the main was anti-war, peace and love. Not the other way around.

For perhaps the first time in generations, young people became more politically aware and didn't like what they saw. They didn't show their dislike in violence, but in peaceful protest.

But don't forget, the 1960's wasn't the period of the hippy subculture alone. Charlie Pride, Glen Campbell, Johnny Cash and Roy Orbison, Bruce Springsteen,for example, were also up their with their music.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2018 at 17:34

If I remember rightly, Bruce Springsteen's Born To Run came out in the mid-seventies. Glen Campbell's Galveston wasn't a protest song, but it reflected the sixties feelings of apprehension about the war.

As well as political awareness on the part of young people, there was also the age 18 draft for young men during the Vietnam War, which I think contributed to the opposition to the war.

I actually have mixed feelings about the elimination of the draft. It's understandable that young Americans were opposed to being drafted into the military, and sent to fight in an overseas war in Southeast Asia that they felt was unnecessary. Moreover, the draft was administered unfairly, and affluent young men got all sorts of deferments for all sorts of reasons, while the poor were automatically drafted. I myself like the idea of a citizen military better than the professional military that we now have. I like the idea of the military originating in the citizenry, rather than composing a seperate professional military force. But the present professional military is better trained. I'd actually like to see 2 years of in-country stateside military training made compulsory again for all citizens upon reaching age 21, or perhaps some sort of alternate national service for those who wished it. But only those professional troops who chose to remain in the service would be sent for duty overseas.

-------------Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2018 at 15:26

Windemere wrote:

Thanks for all the previous posts. I remember Kerry's Winter Soldier speech from April 71, before Congress, pretty well. Kerry was a lieutenant in the Army Reserve when he gave the speech, and was dressed in fatigues and combat boots. This was quite a change from the usual senior military officers, who'd addressed Congress in their dress uniforms. He was also a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, an anti-war group. Listening to the speech, I didn't catch anything negative about veterans. He was criticizing the American government's military actions in Vietnam, and he referred to atrocities that American troops had committed against Vietnamese civilians. But he didn't blame or criticise the troops themselves. He blamed the governmental leadership in Washington D.C. (some of whom he referred to by name). He felt the War was useless and unnecessary.

In detailing the rape and destruction Kerry does nothing to expedite the end of the war, not if you accept McNamara's memoirs and recorded conversations with Nixon. The war ended when Nixon can't find a political upside to continuing the war. Kerry does create even more hostility in the US and some of the exploits of Vietnam Veterans Against the War were used to salt the wounds of POW's as written by John McCain. Jane Fonda bankrolled Kerry's VVAW and turned it into performance art, how did this help civilians in US?

"personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."-John Kerry 1971

Windemere wrote:

Kerry later became a conventional Democratic senator, but he remained supportive of veterans. I remember what the V.A. medical clinic was like in my homecity in those days. It was a very rigid, authoritarian organization, similar to the military itself. The administration there was more concerned with enforcing their rules and regulations than with providing health-care to veterans. There was an awful lot of redtape. A lot of Vietnam-era veterans just became frustrated and disillusioned with it, and stopped going to it altogether. (Now there were many good employees working there, then and now. I'm not criticizing the rank-and-file employees, who were sincere and dedicated. But the administration there, at that time, wasn't helpful or supportive of veterans). In the Nineties, after the first Iraq War, there was a second wave of combat veterans, and they faced the same problems with the V.A. as the Vietnam vets did.

Kerry helped to establish and fund an alternative Vets' Centre, away from the regular V.A. Medical Clinic, that veterans with problems could go to, receive some help and counselling, and some basic medical care. It wasn't equipped to be able to provide specialized medical-care, but the counsellors there were supportive of veterans, and tried to convince them to return to the regular V.A. for medical-care, helped as much as they could to get them through the redtape, and kept telling them "not to give up" and "bear with it" when they ran into problems with the V.A. I know that this is just talk rather than anything else, but it really did help out some vets (buth Vietnam and Gulf War vets), and convince them to go back to the V.A. to get some medical care. Kerry himself visited the Centre several times, and spoke with veterans who were there ( I was present myself during one of his visits). These visits weren't publicity opportunities for him. They weren't announced in advance, and weren't always publicized. Kerry drove across the state himself to come, he wasn't chauffered. This alternative Vets' Centre lasted for about 10 years or so, until it was eventually discontinued. But by that time (about 2007 or so) the regular V.A. had become more welcoming toward veterans, and was trying to cope with things.

Kerry didn't contribute to these improvements by writing legislation.I find that he co-opted a cause to further his ambitions. I think he acted as a communist when he opposed a UN plan in 1990 to end the war in Cambodia. And POW's were comfortably in Kerry's rear view mirror. After his senate committee determined in 1992 that there were no POW's in Vietnam, when Kerry personally flew to Vietnam with other senators to "look" for POWs (theater?) he was ready say that's a wrap. Kerry goes home and takes credit for getting Vietnam mud on his shoes. It was Soviet intelligence that revealed the existence/locations of hundreds American POW's 1992-93, oddly.

Windemere wrote:

World War II veterans returned home to the prosperity and expanding economy of the Fifties. Vietnam veterans returned home to minimum-wage jobs and layoffs, as have the Gulf War vets). I live in a medium-sized, working-class city that's been in decline ever since the Sixties, and a significant number of late-sixties and early-seventies hippies were themselves Vietnam vets. Most of them never joined the American Legion or the V.F.W. They had ambiguous feelings about their service, a mixture of pride and camaraderie, but also feelings of guilt over some of the things they'd seen and done over there. War maybe seems glorious and honorable at times, but it's also brutal and ruthless. There's no easy answers. I think that this was the message that Kerry was trying to convey in the Winter Soldier speech.

My own feelings are that Kerry, after he entered the Senate, ought to have been more concerned with the financial problems that his constituents were undergoing (minimum-wage jobs, layoffs, no health-insurance or access to healthcare, no way to buy a house or support a family,etc.). But his first love was always foreign-policy and diplomacy, and that's what he focused on.

I also like the Sixties protest songs that have been mentioned in this thread. There was also during this time one song "Ballad of the Green Berets" that was patriotic rather than antiwar. But even that song more supported the Green Berets themselves rather than the government.

It's true that after the Vietnam War ended, the hippies soon faded away, except for maybe a few oldtimers who are still around in their sixties and seventies. But the protest songs of the Sixties morphed into Bruce Springsteen's songs of the Seventies and Eighties, which chronicled the passing away of the American Dream, and were just as cynical about the government as the protest songs were.

Couldn't AGREE MORE.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 02:00

We seem to have wandered off the path. 1960's music wasn't confined to "hippy" music and anti-war protest songs. There was a lot of other popular music out there-rock, country, folk and so on.

How about Chubby Checker, the Animals, the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and the list goes on, Glenn Campbell, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles and Johnny Cash. All had music well up in the charts of the time.

-------------It's not that I was born in Ireland,It's the Ireland that was born in me.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:04

toyomotor wrote:

We seem to have wandered off the path. 1960's music wasn't confined to "hippy" music and anti-war protest songs. There was a lot of other popular music out there-rock, country, folk and so on.

How about Chubby Checker, the Animals, the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and the list goes on, Glenn Campbell, Merle Haggard, Ray Charles and Johnny Cash. All had music well up in the charts of the time.

No we haven't wandered off the path. The music and the times are relevant.

Want more videos? You Got it.:)

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:12

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:15

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:25

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 15:57

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 16:00

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 16:05

toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

I suppose I'm somewhat of a dichotemy.

Although I like the music, I marched in support of our troops during the Viet Nam War.

Make no mistake-I was, and still am, staunchly supporting our troops who go to war. I like the lyrics of most of the songs because they say just what I think, our troops doing as their country orders them, they joined knowing the likelihood of active service, but, nevertheless, now that I'm an old man, I don't see war as the means of bringing peace to the world.

Opinions change over the years don't they?

And we also had a rock star who was conscripted to serve in Viet Nam-which he did in a Cavalry Unit. His career was basically stuffed because of his service.

Yes toyomotor opinions do change, thankfully. People believed what they were told by the government and tried to trust the gov hoping for the greater good. The pursuit of war and the circumstances are not always what we have been told. We have learned not to trust and even "verify" seems out of the realm of possibility with info wars and current poor media standards.

-------------Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain

Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 23:59

Listening to an audiobook these days, called something like, 'Detroit, the Tale of Great City,' about c. 1963 Detroit. They talk about Motown, which of course I am vaguely familiar with, in the sense of never having studied it, but having heard it on the radio, in cafes, and in commercials all my life. Also, Aretha Franklin, who wasn't part of the Motown label, but was the daughter of Rev. Franklin and was originally from Detroit. But, I think that Malcolm X came from Detroit, or at least there were black nationalists active there, so not everything was sunny. Romney the elder was governor of Michigan, and the Ford Mustang came out in 1964(??). But, they could already tell that demographics of white flight to the suburbs and the loss of the employed in the city was going to undercut the tax base.

So who went into the Air Calvary?

toyomotor, I think that a lot of people love the idealism of the '60s, even though they don't think it is realistic. The goals of the '60s are noble, but they are also very rare and very hard. For example, "peace," we act like we know what it means, but when can we look at history and find a time that is truly peaceful? not just the breathing space after the conflict, or the time before the storm? So, I think that a lot of people love the music of the sixties, but they are also aware that there is a simplicity (and purity) to the music that did not completely translate to everyday life. Also, there are casualties of the sixties that have little to do with war, and everything to do with not having "guard rails" to keep people on the path. If 'the man' says heroin is bad, then as an antiauthoritarian, let's do heroin. But the music, and the diversity of the music is great for the imagination. I think that with the '60s, American power, and culture was at its zenith, and a lot that was noble came out of that time, some things stayed in that time, and some still lives with us today.

Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 03:02

Joan Baez helped Bob Dylan become known. While established and as a signed artist she took Dylan with her on tour and kept him around until he eventually has his own following. So some free love and years later Dylan could have helped Joan when she was his opening act in 1965, instead he famously snubbed her by not getting onstage with her. Years and years later Baez said she was caught up in making Dylan a political force. She regrets the political activism today bc her son has seen some resentment maybe bias for perceived anti American acts.