you mean "Genital"?Reproductive rights what, you mean the right to murder babies? Pre-born or otherwise?Pedophila/organized crime LOL WHUT?Terrorism as opposed to the kind, loving treatment of the surrounding cultures that co-existed in Biblical times?Slavery in context, Biblical treatment of slaves was by far superior to any of the other surrounding culturesRacism I love how preventing your own race from being annihilated is somehow bad to revisionist historiansRepression and persecution of Science WOW, it is amazing how much mileage this lie gets!Repression of History oh please...Repression of Culture More like the preservation of the defending cultures!

Lets go after the claims of Holy Wars and genocide first. Discounting the fact that every single time God told Israel to wipe out another nation, He had a really good reason, usually having to do with the fact that the offending culture *really* pissed off God with their own mass-murders, rapes, violence, and other transgressions against man and beast. Israel never just went out and committed genocide, God gave them rather specific orders on only a handful of occasions, and on two different occasions they didn't even follow through, and on at least one of those occasions, not following orders lead to a headache that haunted them for centuries. But I digress...

Politicians cause wars, not Religion, on average to the tune of 9 out of 10 of historical wars ever fought. If you research all of the wars listed in the "Encyclopedia of Wars - 3 Volume Set (Fact on File Library of World History) by Phillips & Axlerod", [I have a digital copy on my hard drive] you will find that depending on how you define 'Religion', no less than 7%, but NO MORE than 11% of all the wars in human history have ever been caused by purely religious conflicts. As for body count, the highest number of casualties ever racked up have been under then hand of Atheist Communists, (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Che Guevara & Castro, et alia), and most of them in modern history, within the past 100 years.The bulk of world wars have been fought over purely socio-political conflicts involving limited resources, usually over land, food, mineral wealth, and now oil. Fun fact: approximately 50% of all the wars ever fought by the human race have been over SALT, sodium chloride, or to control the access to, or trade routes of. (See "Salt: A History", by Mark Kurlansky, a fun summer read.)

So, since Atheists have proven themselves as being far the worse wielder of power over the past century, and the tools of science have been responsible for the actual ability of humans to cause true mass murder on a scale never before conceived of, often killing more humans than saving them, and having unleashed the power to actually kill us all, and the planet with us, a feat previously impossible before science became the predominant faith of the faithless and tool of the immoral, tell us again why we should not occasionally try to put the brakes on? Farmers didn't spend the past 6,000+ years of recorded human history finding new ways to grow poisoned food; it took Monsanto to do that.There is no war on science, but in the grand scheme of history, damn it maybe there should be!

Dr Dreidel:buckler: Dr Dreidel: Gyrfalcon: It's why there are so many references to other gods in the Pentateuch, as in the story of Babel when God says "Behold, man is become LIKE US." Since God never refers to himself in the royal plural anywhere else, this is interpreted to mean God is talking to other gods.

Genesis 2:1 (IIRC): "Let US make man, in OUR own image..."

I often wondered about the "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", which seems to simultaneously acknowledge the existence of other gods, while affirming that he was taking supremacy among them.

Could be that the Biblical author uses the term "other gods" to mean "another object of worship". There's a belief that The Golden Calf (one of many "other gods" mentioned in the text) was built by the Hebrews because they felt they couldn't replace Moses (who, you recall, had disappeared up a mountain) as their intermediary to god. They built this idol to focus their prayers (a good intention), in effect "creating a new god".

There is also the idea that there are named powers that control the universe - in Judaism, angels serve as messengers of god's will (since god has no corporeal form, all the times god reaches into the physical world, it's through an angel). They have more "power" than people, so they can be thought of as "other gods" with God at the helm. These deserve no worship, as all of their power comes from God anyway.

Holy wars/Genocide- Of course World Wars I and II had no religious context, but I'd wager that they accounted for more casualties than any number of "Holy wars" that you can name. But let's overlook all of the non-religious wars that have been fought for various other reasons. Everyone knows that religion historically is the major cause of all deaths, right? And btw, what about the atrocities of the French Revolution? Kind of an embarrassment for the non-religious, don't you think?

Repression of women/minorities/homosexuals- The Nazis persecuted homosexuals, Slavs, Gypsies, etc. Did they do it for religious reasons? Didn't think so. Sure, women are treated as second-class citizens in some Islamic countries and I suppose you could blame that on religion, but it's just as much a symptom of totalitarianism.

Genetal mutilation- I suppose you're referring to female circumcision? Yeah. Bizarre practice. But then so are other forms of non-religious mutilations practiced in this world. Let's look at the big picture. I don't think that practice is very common.

Reproductive rights- you mean the opposition to birth control by the Catholic church, because opposition to abortion is not necessarily a religious issue. Well, I suppose it's a matter of conscience for Catholics.

Pedophila/organized crime- there are pedophiles in all areas of society. This is not religious in nature. And calling it organized crime doesn't make it so.

Slavery- Are you going to tell me the Bible endorses slavery? Try again. The slavery spoken of in the Bible is not the same as practiced in America hundreds of years ago. Read up on it if you're actually interested.

Racism- a few examples, please. Not sure what you're getting at.

Repression and persecution of Science (notice this one is in direct opposition to the achievements you listed)- poor, poor Galileo. Put on house arrest for making fun of the Pope, but no repression of science that I'm aware of. Of course you've got the young earth creationists, but who pays them any heed?

Repression of History- examples?

Repression of Culture- What, from missionaries? Boo-hoo. Which primitive culture hasn't benefitted from their intervention.? But maybe you had something else in mind?

Your list is pretty pathetic, but if it makes you sleep easier thinking that religion is some monolithic boogie-man, well, all I can say is sleep tight. Any reasonable person knows otherwise.

Farktastic:Cheeseburger: Farktastic:Jesus tittyfarking christ, maybe it is just time to get rid of these fairy tales for adults. The reason we don't get anywhere as a species on this planet is directly due to religion. If we spent as much time, money and effort on eliminating this disease of the mind as we do on cancer, the world would instantly be a better place.

Gee, I think we've come pretty far as a species. So how have other species not burdened with religion done? Any other apes visited the moon or mapped the human genome? Nope, just still flinging poo at the zoo. And calling religion a disease (or rather, virus, if you want to parrot Dawkins accurately) sounds good, in the same way that saying something is a privilege and not a right sounds good, but it's still bullsh*t. But keep repeating it and people will tend to believe it. Weak-minded people.

Holy wars/GenocideRepression of women/minorities/homosexualsGenetal mutilationReproductive rightsPedophila/organized crimeTerrorismSlaveryRacismRepression and persecution of Science (notice this one is in direct opposition to the achievements you listed)Repression of HistoryRepression of Culture

I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. Religion is a root cause in all of these activities. What we have accomplished as a species has been done despite religion, not because of it.

Just for a second, think about eliminating religious contexts from the powderkeg that is the Middle East. Notice how many problems just go away?

Almost none of them. Most of the problems in the Middle East are just religiously-justified extensions of tribal warfare that have gone on for millennia. Strip out the religion and you'd still have "MY TRIBE: GOOD! YOUR TRIBE: BAD!"

And I hate to break it to you, but several of the greatest pre-modern scientists ever (Roger Bacon, Gregor Mendel) were monks. The idea that the Church actively suppressed science and knowledge is only prevalent among people who don't bother to research the Middle Ages.

thespindrifter:Think twice before you laugh at the Bible. The Bible says that the houses of the thief and the liar will be completely consumed. Sadly, it doesn't say which thieves and liars. Maybe the White House? maybe your house? Who knows?? Best not to be a thief and a liar then.

* a talent was the heaviest measuring weight known to Israel at the time. Nuclear warheads aren't exactly light, and the very first atomic bomb weighed in at almost five tons.

thespindrifter:Lets go after the claims of Holy Wars and genocide first. Discounting the fact that every single time God told Israel to wipe out another nation, He had a really good reason, usually having to do with the fact that the offending culture *really* pissed off God with their own mass-murders, rapes, violence, and other transgressions against man and beast. Israel never just went out and committed genocide, God gave them rather specific orders on only a handful of occasions, and on two different occasions they didn't even follow through, and on at least one of those occasions, not following orders lead to a headache that haunted them for centuries. But I digress...

Sounds to me like you're saying genocide is OK when it's done in the name of God. Also; Joshua.

thespindrifter:Farktastic: Religion is a root cause in all of these activities

Bull. Crap. Also known in the Bible as several different words, but let's get to the heart of the problem, your lies!

Farktastic: Repression of women/minorities/homosexualsGenetal mutilation you mean "Genital"?Reproductive rights what, you mean the right to murder babies? Pre-born or otherwise?Pedophila/organized crime LOL WHUT?Terrorism as opposed to the kind, loving treatment of the surrounding cultures that co-existed in Biblical times?Slavery in context, Biblical treatment of slaves was by far superior to any of the other surrounding culturesRacism I love how preventing your own race from being annihilated is somehow bad to revisionist historiansRepression and persecution of Science WOW, it is amazing how much mileage this lie gets!Repression of History oh please...Repression of Culture More like the preservation of the defending cultures!

Lets go after the claims of Holy Wars and genocide first. Discounting the fact that every single time God told Israel to wipe out another nation, He had a really good reason, usually having to do with the fact that the offending culture *really* pissed off God with their own mass-murders, rapes, violence, and other transgressions against man and beast. Israel never just went out and committed genocide, God gave them rather specific orders on only a handful of occasions, and on two different occasions they didn't even follow through, and on at least one of those occasions, not following orders lead to a headache that haunted them for centuries. But I digress...

Politicians cause wars, not Religion, on average to the tune of 9 out of 10 of historical wars ever fought. If you research all of the wars listed in the "Encyclopedia of Wars - 3 Volume Set (Fact on File Library of World History) by Phillips & Axlerod", [I have a digital copy on my hard drive] you will find that depending on how you define 'Religion', no less than 7%, but NO MORE than 11% ...

LOL

This made my night. Takes me back a few years... fallacies will never die.

Dr Dreidel:buckler: Dr Dreidel: Gyrfalcon: It's why there are so many references to other gods in the Pentateuch, as in the story of Babel when God says "Behold, man is become LIKE US." Since God never refers to himself in the royal plural anywhere else, this is interpreted to mean God is talking to other gods.

Genesis 2:1 (IIRC): "Let US make man, in OUR own image..."

I often wondered about the "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", which seems to simultaneously acknowledge the existence of other gods, while affirming that he was taking supremacy among them.

Could be that the Biblical author uses the term "other gods" to mean "another object of worship". There's a belief that The Golden Calf (one of many "other gods" mentioned in the text) was built by the Hebrews because they felt they couldn't replace Moses (who, you recall, had disappeared up a mountain) as their intermediary to god. They built this idol to focus their prayers (a good intention), in effect "creating a new god".

There is also the idea that there are named powers that control the universe - in Judaism, angels serve as messengers of god's will (since god has no corporeal form, all the times god reaches into the physical world, it's through an angel). They have more "power" than people, so they can be thought of as "other gods" with God at the helm. These deserve no worship, as all of their power comes from God anyway.

Assuming you believe in any of that...

If "he/she/it" is the only-one-true-gawdh; why be so concerned with your little plaything's playthings, eh? What's to be afraid of? I mean... that just doesn't make any sense! It's almost like it's a man made story or something!