POSTGAME NOTES: A fabulous September game that offered everything but a Giants win

In for Alex, but fortunately, he’s back Wednesday night (in fact, in about 13 hours, he’ll be sitting in the seat I’m occupying right now).

It’s well after midnight here at AT&T Park, just finished the final game story for the web. We’re going to keep this very, very short. I thought maybe a 10 most noteworthy occurrences list following this terrific game would be in order.

1. Highlight of the night: Brandon Crawford’s double play behind the mound in the seventh. Quite simply, the best infield play I’ve seen all year, and maybe a couple of years. Brandon Belt’s reaction: “Great play, but that throw scared the crap out of me. He threw it about 95 mph.”

2. Lowlight of the night: Somehow, Buster Posey went 0-for-5 in the middle of all that hitting and scoring and comebacking.

3. Brilliant running catch by Justin Upton on Pablo Sandoval’s rocket into Triples Alley in the ninth. That ball would have been out of about 27 other parks in MLB. As one Twitter follower noted afterward, “I’m really starting to get tired of that happening at this park.”

4. Belt homered. First time since June 23 anywhere. The Giants homered. First time since Aug. 13 at home. It was a shock, because the long balls have become so rare. But things could change on that front soon. Absolutely no reason to believe Belt can’t do that with more regularity, as massively as that thing was tagged. Sandoval looks primed for his first in weeks. Crawford came about two feet from one. Pence is starting to hit a few more missiles. And we know Posey is capable.

5. Amazing the symmetry of the Dodgers and Giants both losing in 11 on this night. Who took it harder? You’d have to say L.A., hands down. They lost on a night Clayton Kershaw was pitching, which must feel like losing a double-header to them. They had a 3-1 lead, too, and coughed it away. The Giants had an early 1-0 lead, but basically were lucky to be in this one. Afterward, they were feeling pretty good about themselves despite the late fold, just because of the fight they put up getting back into it.

6. 11 pitchers by the Giants. Tied a major-league record. Save the first guy (Ryan Vogelsong) and the last guy (Javier Lopez), it was pretty darned impressive in between. Biggest gold star to Santiago Casilla, who got the Giants out of a bases-loaded one-out jam in the eighth, but also Romo, who went two innings hitless on just 16 pitches. Those two guys have been off the charts of late.

7. The wrong in Vogelsong. Mysterious. The stuff was there. He hit 93 a few times early on. But as he noted, his fastball was flat. And as we’ll note, his breaking pitches were fat. He’s having some location issues, but hey, join the club right now. Matt Cain’s got the same problem. Ditto Madison Bumgarner, who pitches today. Zito, well you saw it Monday. If the mph were dropping on the top four guys, there would be more cause for worry. But as written last night, the starters collectively need to tidy up things before the boys in blue come to town. Bumgarner could provide a headstart in the final of the AZ series.

8. Sandoval looks like he’s finally locked in and ready to go on a raking bender. He has seven hits in his last three games, had a double and 2 RBIs in this latest win, an oppo game-tying single and his hardest-hit ball should have been a walk-off homer. He told me before the game that his timing is back and although it was tough missing all that time and then going through so many games struggling to find his rhythm, he feels really fresh mentally and physically for the final 3 1/2 weeks. Tuesday night, in particular, looked like a validation of that.

9. Aaron Hill is a pretty darned impressive player and hitter. Five hits in this one, plus a walk. A double, a bomb, and a single in the 11th to kick off the winning rally. He’s hitting .302 with 21 homers. That’s almost Jeff Kent-like.

10. After all the pre-game harangue from fans about why the Giants brought back Emmanuel Burriss, he comes up and gets a knock in the 11th and sets up the top of the order first-and-second, nobody out. Nice job, Manny.

Well, I have no more to give after these crazy two days. I’d best get out of this seat before Alex shows up. He’ll be posting the lineups here soon enough. Too soon. Exit music: Frank Sinatra “One For My Baby,” just for the opening lyric: “It’s quarter to three, and no one’s in the place, except you and me … ”

An impressive year for Hill, in a launching pad, but cmon …. mid-700 lifetime OPS is nothing like Kent. Please

Nate

Far too often this group wins in spite of Bochy. Tonight he put us too far behind the 8 ball. 11 pitchers? 25 players? Quit it.

GideonTownsend

Hunter Pence botched that play in right field. That triple was completely catchable. Phillies fans have been telling stories of how bad his defense has been … and dang, it’s true!

SurfCity

Very fun game to watch. Many mini-dramas throughout.
Very tough game to lose. But so nice to see the offense once again make a comeback. The offense is very encouraging and if starting pitching turns back into what we all know it can be – then Giants should prove a very determined force to reckon with for the remainder of the season, and hopefully beyond.

bochy’s platoony tune adventures

what, buster went 0-5?!?!?!

surely, Bochy is not running him into the ground what with all those days off at first base he’s been getting!!!

JD4SF

We came back to tie, then kept battling into extra innings. It wasn’t enough this time, and sometimes it won’t be. We can’t expect to win every game. If we’re going to lose to the Snakes or the Dodgers this homestand, I’d much rather it be the Snakes moving up in the standings because we have a larger gap. And we didn’t lose any ground in standings with the Dodgers also losing.

As anticipated, Bochy was taking the opportunity to see what the call-ups could do with a shakedown cruise. The primary focus was still on the win, but this was a chess match that failed. But the game was hard fought. 11 pitchers??? Early hook for Vogey, but in general a real nice job by the bullpen.

Defense – we had some fabulous plays by Crawford (DP) and Pablo (diving catch.)

We had missed opportunity with RISP that came back to haunt us. However, our guys also had some good offense. We battled to the end and went down fighting.
* Belt’s splash hit was impressive … off Kennedy! He continues to hit pretty consistently, with authority.
* Pablo’s bat is heating up. We need that!
* Pence is hitting pretty consistently now.
* Scutaro continues to impress.
* 5 players with doubles.
* Others contributed well with bats – IIRC everyone contributed somehow – against some tough pitching.

We got several good hits, 6 runs and even a HR. We lost in the end, but our offense at home has been showing some predator’s teeth we weren’t seeing earlier in the season. On the hunt. A Good Thing.

More call-ups. Here’s hoping Otero and Runzler find their niche and are solid from the pen. We have Burriss back, and he showed us his bat can rap out a single, but more importantly he’ll add more speed to the bench as a pinch runner option. He’s not Ford, but he has some pretty good wheels.

Our guys are real good about positive thinking. We saw that TEAM chemistry during and after the game. They’ll show up Wednesday night with this game behind them, looking forward, and come out playing to win! 8)

anthillunda2nd

Burriss’ best AB as a Giant, he battled and set a beautiful table.

Panda is backkkk!! C’mon pitching

oj mayo

Was at the game. Entertaining but tough loss. Was anyone else bothered by boch using three straight pinch hitters in the 8th. Blanco n craw had had good abs mostky during the game. All either of them needed to do was put the ball in play. Instead he hits arias, who comes in cold and Ks, for blanco. Nady then walks in craws spot, leaving hector, a prime dp candidate, as his best bat ti hit fir the pitcher.

If blanco and craw r good.enough to start then they should be good enough to hit in that pressure situation. Imagine what boch just did to.their confidence. Plus, PHing is tough n the giants have been especially bad at it this year. Boch got a little excessive there with te switching and subbing and pinching, unfortunately. Hopefully it doesnt become a common occurence now.with his bigger roster

Happ2125

Crawford and Belt everyday. Arias has cooled down and needs to stay on bench down the stretch and sub in defensively late in games. He gets exploited playing too much. But yeah. Crawford n Belt have been solid offensively in 2nd half and just keep getting better n better.

Happ2125

And Nady needs to play everyday. Blanco needs to stay off bench as 4th of and sub in defensively.

Henry Chinaski

#9 If blanco and craw r good.enough to start then they should be good enough to hit in that pressure situation. Imagine what boch just did to.their confidence. Plus, PHing is tough n the giants have been especially bad at it this year. Boch got a little excessive there with te switching and subbing and pinching, unfortunately. Hopefully it doesnt become a common occurence now.with his bigger roster

+1

Not so much Blanco but Craw has been pretty clutch at times of late

Victor

Vogey needs to get back on his supplements

Victor

This is not 2010′ the Giants do not have the starting pitching to go deep into the playoffs, IF they make it.

JD4SF

Scooter McFinch says: (prior threads)
September 4th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
do you measure TEAM chemistry? Eye contact? High 5s or Butt-slapping? Post game conversations in the clubhouse? Or Winning?
————-

Sorry for the delay responding. I found your question after returning home and took your question seriously. There is no simple answer. The long version is below.

Measure? Hmmm. I don’t know that you can actually measure TEAM chemistry. The results – more clutch plays, hits, etc., and more wins – are essentially enhanced performance for that team caused by the chemistry, but there is no way to clearly determine what percentage chemistry is as a factor.

How much “extra effort” would you give to save a loved one from peril? How would that compare with effort to save a stranger? That “extra effort” is inside all of us, to some degree, for some more than others. How would you measure that extra effort? And how do you create an environment where a team of players learn they can dig deeper for that extra effort on a fairly regular basis?

Some may have noticed my change in terminology as the season progressed. I said the team was gelling, then started using TEAM (Together Everyone Achieves More), and more recently TEAM chemistry.

IMO the group that gels becomes a TEAM – folks who know each other well and work together well. Some good bonding occurs, every member of that team is more valued for what they can contribute, they try harder together, and production/performance is likely to improve.

I see TEAM *chemistry* as a deeper bond, an enhancement to a gelled TEAM, where the team is more like a close knit family or brotherhood. This results in even more extra effort, and increased self confidence as the individual learns he can dig even deeper and perform even better. More confidence as a group, a stronger support system, etc. The belief in themselves and each other just fuels them more. Every win validates their quiet confidence and makes them stronger as a unit.

The TEAM will do well. The TEAM with good chemistry is more likely to exceed expectations. In baseball that doesn’t always mean a win, but individual players fueled by TEAM chemistry are likely to perform beyond their stats, thus increasing the potential for the team to win.

Use Crawford for an example. Talent and potential. This season he went from boggling some plays he shouldn’t have to making some tough plays look easy and some “How did he DO that?” exceptional plays. His bat went from struggles and not much impact to hitting well above what most folks predicted. Yes, he would have improved over time as he settled in. But a lot of the game is mental. I believe he exceeded expectations by discovering he could dig deeper than he had before. And I believe the TEAM chemistry helped him dig deeper and find that “extra effort” that we now see daily.

Obviously there are degrees of TEAM chemistry, and also some players have more potential for finding the extra effort than others. And the chemistry is subject to change, potentially weakened or strengthened by bumps in the road.

2010 Giants had great TEAM chemistry, and the misfits thrived with several playing to individual best or even better than their stats would suggest. 2011 started as a TEAM and tried to start building chemistry, but stumbled when they lost Buster then Freddy, the DL became a revolving door, etc. They never got the chemistry back. The “TEAM effort” wasn’t working real well, playing more with grim determination than confidence. Then efforts at “TEAM” took another hit when Beltran didn’t fit in well. The September spark came mostly from the bench and call-ups.

How do you somehow know the TEAM chemistry even exists? A lot is seen in body language. There is a bit of science behind this, including behavioral science. I’ve used it for decades with my dogs, and horses in the herd, to understand *their* methods of communication, and have had a few classes over time on human body language. Some is very obvious, some very subtle.

Ask a good poker player or experienced law enforcement about “tells”. Ask a parent about “reading” his/her kid. Ask a good salesman how he knows when to nudge and when to wait. Often the answer is more intangible, but it is rooted in understanding body language even if only on an instinctive level.

TEAM chemistry is both fundamental and complex, mental, and has deep roots. Even when the words are “right”, the body language may speak differently … making those comments token and Team Correct, more commonly from a player with too much ego or a player not confident in his value to the team but following the “how to talk to media” guide.

But the body language can also speak positively, or to confirm. You can see the chemistry in the quiet self confidence, confidence in others, positive team interaction on and off the field. Sometimes just watching those glimpses of the dugout tells a story. The most obvious is interviews where body language speaks truth, teammate contributions are mentioned first, and individual recognition takes a distant second in importance.

You see players *all* playing for the team, not for stats, and ego doesn’t stand in the way. No shaking off the coach asking for a bunt. Instead you might be surprised by a player’s unexpected and unusual slap bunt that was intentionally practiced to be effective. Think Pence. He did that not just for himself, but to somehow contribute for the TEAM.

Just in recent days, a few examples …
* In Giants player interviews I have seen recently, the player gave credit to others up front.
* Scutaro interview points out the value of the bench. Twice.
* Romo “We honestly believe we have a chance to win every game. […] Awesome team.”
* Some incredible “extra effort” plays on defense. Pick your own favorites. Several to choose from where you said WOW.
* Belt on the bench with Pill playing. Belt is obviously delighted with Pill’s successful bunt to help the TEAM.
* Go ahead run on 3rd and several players are already standing at the steps in the dugout. Positive “we believe!” silent message.
* Increasingly successful smart/small ball, which requires TEAM effort.
* Several clutch hits, sometimes from unexpected sources.

And yes, fans can play a part in the TEAM chemistry. The players aren’t making token statements when they appreciate *positive* fan support. Cain said he felt the support of the entire stadium pitching his Perfecto. Last year (May 6th) Freddy made a point of saying he heard the fans – all 42,000 of them – chanting his name when he stepped into the box needing a clutch hit, and said it motivated him even further. (He got the clutch hit. They likely heard the crowd roar for miles.)

Yes, you can see some examples of a TEAM mentality in some of the players all the time. Think Buster. But when you start seeing the quietly confident (not cocky) body language in multiple players, more bonding and unity in the dugout, the notable improvements in multiple players, etc., and that mentality is showing up consistently in all player interviews, you figure you’re seeing TEAM chemistry.

TEAM chemistry isn’t really something you can measure, but it is invaluable.

Basesdrunk

Bochy cant help himself with all these extra players and it will be the Giants downfall as Bochy gut feelings get the best of him

Belt now batting .275 with 2nd best OBP on team and in his last 3 starts has a 4 hit game and 3 hit game but yet this was his 1st start in 4 games BUT somehow Pill got A START and wouldn’t shock me to see Huff get a start

Bochy remember if there not good enough to be on your 25 man roster then they shouldnt be starting or even making an appearance because if your team gets you butt into the playoffs you will not be able to use all your beloved washed up vets

11 pitchers in 1 game YIKES, Bochy calls it instinct and managing a bullpen but knowledgeable baseball folks call it idiotic

bocheetus

blah blah blah

dgg

Thanks, Carl. Wow, you were up late. You’re right. It was a “fabulous September game” and exciting to watch unfold. Really enjoyed reading your post-game note. Brandon Belt’s reaction to Crawford’s double-play 360-degree whirl-and-throw made me laugh out loud.

Well THAT one made for some weird baseball dreams. Strange how identical scenarios played out in L.A. at the same time, mas o menos. Lots of frustration, lots of positives. Sure hope Vogey rights himself – he was throwing hard so presumably his arm is ok.

As mentioned above Crawford should have hit in the 8th. He hit the ball off the wall in the 6th and he was coming off a great defensive play. Burriss has zero power and should only b a pinch runner. The single he hit is the best he could do.

Foothills Ryan

JD4SF,

That was superb. Fit to be published. Thank you for responding to that query.

I think team chemistry plays a significant role when players are tired. This is when they pick each other up. Well, it’s time for the tired pitchers to pick each other up. It’s time for the young buck to get it done and go at least seven and maybe all the way.

The lack luster performances by the starters must surely be attributable to fatigue. The opponents starters are tired also. This would explain the surge in the Giants offense. They didn’t just get that much better, the pitches they have gotten are better to hit. A tired Ian Kennedy leaves an 0-2 cookie for Belt – thank you very much. Glad he knew what to do with it.

Chemistry is definitely there. It’s a subjective thing, but there are always objective tells. Subjectively, you know Michelle Obama can out first lady Romney’s wife. Objectively, she can do more pushups. Subjectively you connect and feel a deeper sense of sincerity on the DNC stage than that of the RNC. Objectively, you are drawn to the diversity of race, gender and economic background than the relative uniformity. Regardless of the difficult situations, you know there is better chemistry in the DNC than the mess that is their opposition. As always, we hope and cheer for the better team to win.

Go Giants ! Go USA ! Go Dems !

larry

Bochy lost this game. With no outs and Pence on third in the 8th, and Arias up, he refused to have Arias bunt in Pence to home plate. I don’t get it. Pill bunts the previous day, but not this time. The Giants lost at least two games last year when the Brewers and Marlins used squeeze bunts to beat them, at AT&T.

The Oracle

I’m still not quite getting it. I think this TEAM chemistry thing needs to be explained in a little more detail.

pacman68

The single Burriss hit bounced off the pitchers leg. If it doesn’t do that it’s a double play. Not buying Burriss … but I’m glad he got a hit. Having all these players up here on makes Bochy worse. I said this last night. Crawford has been saving your butt all night and what do you do? You sit him in a big moment in the game. That’s not good managing to me.

bag of balls

#23 lol++++++++
Best sarcastic post of the day.
As for the contest…..
great to battle back and tie it. Totally should have won the game. We had baserunners everywhere from the eighth inning on. That being said, it still feels good as a fan to honestly believe you are still in the game, down a 4-spot. Didn’t feel that way in 2010, and certainly not last season. This one feels a bit different.
#deathbyathousandcuts

Go get em boys!

jus sayin

@basesdrunk,

You’re the exact kind of “knowledgeable” fan I pray I’m not sitting next to at the park.

It’s September!!!!! You suck it up as a player, and you manage games juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust a bit differently than in May or June.

Go Giants!

Matthew

Wow..what a game. I left this place last night in my troll-avoidance plan, and made a cheery “Hope we come back” sign off, and , BOY, did we?!

I wasn’t too upset with the over managing other than lifting Crawford, but that’s the fan in me talking as a huge Crawford supporter. There is nothing that could have told Bochy that Arias wouldn’t come through, and his August earned him that chance.

It’s not often a loss can be a moral victory, but with the Dodgers losing that Kershaw game, AND our guys fighting to the very last out ( my visions of “Vamos, Papi” hitting one in the cove didn’t quite happen, oh well) should help the boys.

Minor note – for people still harping on Burriss and saying that was a weak hit – get a grip. That was a GREAT at bat, great battle, and he should be applauded for the way he fought to get on base to rep the tying run in a deflated bottom of the 11th.

New day, one day closer to the NL West title. Keep it going boys!

Gooser

JD4SF- Thanks that was great. The Giants do have great team chemistry. It cannot be measured but you can see it. I would dare to say that you can feel it while watching them play. Anybody who has ever played a sport on a team that has had it knows that it’s real and it matters a great deal. The saving a loved one versus saving a stranger is a good analogy.

Foothills please no politics, kills the blog. Even posts complaining about Bochy read better here than politics, regardless of political party.

Tough loss but great game. Crawford’s dp was unbelievable. Really happy for the guy. He has grown up before our eyes and has improved little by little every day. Now he is a major league ss.

Anybody notice at how well Panda does with a runner on third with less than two outs? He keeps coming through. I don’t think I would want anybody else up in that situation right now. Maybe Scutero but that’s it.

Unfortunate to give some life back to AZ when they were ready to be put down for good.

Coming up short on a comeback is not the end of the world. Of more concern, personally, is that there were SO MANY comebacks against HOU, CHI, and now AZ, not exactly playoff caliber teams. You have to get down (sometimes big) before that comeback can happen.

It certainly helps team unity, confidence in the offense, and resiliency, but it also screams that the pitching has been well below what we have come to expect. It needs to turn around.

———————————————-

I can’t wait for Bochy to retire after these last two months! Wake up, folks. He’s average at best. Unless, of course, the only possible way Belt is now producing is the result of an expertly crafted, meticulous design of yo-yos, public criticism, and benchings specifically crafted in coordination with Bochy’s psychological classification of young Brandon to get Belt hitting sooner than any other path (like, I don’t know, playing him earlier with consistency . . . ).

No Longer Long Suffering Giants Fan

Read the very 1st comment and went ballistic! “Cant lay this game on one thing, but Bochy’s near refusal to squeeze was one huge factor. Very little to lose in that 8th inning. Bochy sac bunts too often and squeezes too little.”

R U freakin’ kidding? Another starting pitcher throws up a stinker and you’re blaming Bochy for not squeezing? I can lay this on one thing: Our strength has become our weakness. Does anyone realize that the last time through the rotation our best pitcher, by far, was Timmy?

No Longer Long Suffering Giants Fan

Oh forgot something. Giants were a very good 18-11 in August despite a team era of 4.31. The hitters led the league in runs scored. You wanna lay blame, talk to the pitchers.

But when the pitching is good, isn’t it because of how well Bochy handles the bullpen? This is getting confusing.

Gamertude

Great comeback but with 1st and 3rd nobody out in the 8th to not score was a really bad sign. You HAVE to punch at least one across there and it was the difference between winning and losing tonight.

I hope everyone looks forward to potential free agent hitters seeing the balls that Sandoval and Crawford hit tonight and saying no thanks to signing here. At least people got a chance to see first hand tonight how utterly ridiculous the dimensions are at AT&T and the combination of a 3,000 foot right center and 700 foot high wall are complete and total unnecessary home run preventers. I have been trumpeting the bring the fences in card since the park opened in 2000 and I’ll never stop. It’s not ‘unique’ or ‘old school,’ it’s plain stupid and it screws hitters. Bring the fences in so our stadium is not some gimmick hitters grave yard. I’m not saying make them like the Little League World Series, but just bring in right center about 20 feet and then management can add more seats to line their pockets for the ‘rainy day fund.’

Say Hey

I’d swear half this board secretly roots for losses so they can second-guess Bochy and feel all knowledgeable. I didn’t like pinch-hitting for Crawford, but in general his moves worked, his bullpen is still not trashed after too many days of making up for bad starting pitching, and the clubhouse is full of guys pulling for each other. That’s not coincidence.

JD, great post. I’d just add, if you’ve ever played ball at any decent level you know the difference between a team with chemistry and a team without one, and it’s not at all rare that a team with “better” players but no chemistry loses to the supposedly inferior team because the team with chemistry plays to win, even if that means sacrificing numbers. It’s camaraderie and it gets guys through slumps and carries the team through errors and rough pitching performances.

Anyone who scoffs at this idea, and there seem to be quite a few, just doesn’t get it and probably never experienced it.

Jstreet

JD, thanks for the informative, if lengthy TEAM scree. You’ve offered some real food for thought. Tells, indeed. Ryan, nice analogy and I agree re the reality of another “pennant race”. Wisdom Cow, you were doing better in Tahoe. More of the same, one trick Bochy is Bad drivel. This is hurting your credibility here. Welcome back, but like the pitchers, your arm is tired. Giants, great game last night. Was glad that even though I couldn’t see all of it, I did see the Brandon’s DP, the Belt belt, and the outstanding pitching by Casilla and Romo. Casilla is back. Primo baseball. And props to AZ (Hill, Upton’s catch, efc.) for not giving in. Sometimes the first thing fans think of when their own doesn’t win is that they blew it or were no good, but really, the opponents are doing their damnedest to succeed as well. Keep that in mind when you throw your people on the slag heap. Good game, now let’s do it again.

Scooter McFinch

“Foothills please no politics, kills the blog. Even posts complaining about Bochy read better here than politics, regardless of political party.”

Point taken. Just getting everyone primed for that other pennant drive.

C’mon though. San Francisco : city of diversity; equality for gender, race…

and

Los Angeles – “Bane Capital”

Expat

Gamertude makes a good point. On the one hand the dimensions help our pitchers but the cost is a mind game with our hitters. I’d go for a slight modification in the punishing right field dimensions. Extend the arcade porch seating from the foul pole to the section in right center where it sticks out farther. It actually would look better and balls hit legitimately to right would be out (i.e. Crawford’s hit last night). Not sure what I’d like to see in triples alley, maybe pull it in a little.

Sorry, but I went back over the past couple of days and saw so many “feels like 2010” references, I could not believe it. A few people tried to point out how little this year is like 2010, but the fans driven by their hearts can see nothing but the positive. That they believe the “lightning in a bottle” approach to TEAM success is a strategy is beyond me.

JStreet, JUST SKIP ME! I don’t tell you what to write. So, kiss off.

Scooter, don’t be afraid to mix in some politics. It’s only offensive to the imbecile that actually believe what FOX NOISE spews, kinda like those that swallow every bit of Baer PR. The similarities warrant discussion.

Also, the comment section read like cult session of self gratulation the past week. Nothing could be more boring, and usually ignores anything meaningful (like that the competition was two of the worst teams in the league).

I loved that Burriss gets brought up as a PH option after Bochy lacked one when needed the day before the move. Should have had Brown up here already, like I wrote before hand, especially as the Burriss move required a 40 man roster change. Shills will undoubtedly disagree.

BKGiant

JD4SF –
Even the US Supreme Court sometimes lacks words to describe certain things:
In ruling on what is “obscene” pornography and what is not obscene, one Justice said, “I know it when I see it.”

True dat. Baseball is Porn. TEAM Chemistry is Obscene. I know it when I see it. Straight from the the US Supreme Court. 😉

Matthew

Footy, if “diversity” means different views, cool… But I’m definitely with Gooser. The beauty of sports is that we can generally root for the same team regardless of our political differences. I choose not to share ANY of that here as it immediately gets us off track.

C’mon, Footy, just say no!

orangeandblack

You can’t win em all. They fought back, against a (nother?) lackluster start. It’s a team thing. Get the starting pitching going and rock September baby!

Scott

Gamertude,

The dimensions at AT&T are a matter of taste, or preference. Personally, I like the park the way it is. But, watching balls like the one Pablo hit last night die in an outfielders glove can be disheartening. As for the big power guys that see the way the park plays and sign elsewhere, I say so what. And, I love all the triples.

Great comeback, again. There seems to be a very positive feeling in the Giants dugout now, when it come4s to scoring runs. Some of which can be attributed to “chemistry” as JD so artfully describes it.

Now, a short rant. Bochy needs to swallow his darn pencil once in a while late in games. Crawford’s defense will be absolutely essential throughout the entirety of EVERY playoff game. Stop the mad scientist BS Bochy. The young guys, the Brandons in particular, are starting to find their stride, let them play.

PBryan

Don’t mind all the pitchers – get them all stretched out a bit. But the bottom of the 8th was mishandled by Bochy – yes, why not leave Blanco in to squeeze bunt? These are also the sorts of things can be learned from now, and not repeated later when it really counts?

Otherwise, fine game, look forward to tonight.

Mr. Sarcastic

Been away for a while. Glad to see I haven’t missed anything. Bochy stinks. It’s his fault we lost. Doesn’t matter that Vogelsong was throwing fat pitches to hit all night. Bochy should have squeezed. Bochy should have started Belt the night before. Bochy should not have used 11 pitchers. Bochy should have pitched, caught, and hit instead of the players that actually played the game.

It’s also Bochy’s fault that gas is over $4.20 a gallon, and he is also responsible for global warming. (Unless you lean right, in which case he is responsible for making people THINK there is global warming).

Bochy made it rain the day after I washed my car, and I’m pretty sure he is somehow responsible for Justin Bieber.

Lyle

JD4SF –

That was very well stated! I always read your posts with great interest, and this was quite possibly your best. I seldom comment here, but I enjoy what you have to say. Keep up the good work!

Expat

Please no politics, not because most of us can’t handle it, but the level of discourse is on the level of TWC’s “imbeciles”, ad hominem attacks, sweeping generalizations and name calling. Pretty much the same way Zito is treated on this board.

Gooser

Wow TWC you must have been waiting for a tough Giants loss so you could start spewing your venom all over the place. It’s got to be tough for you with the Giants in first place and playing good baseball. Hard to be negative in such circumstances, but you are a gamer and find a way.

Your criticism of Bochy is your one trick pony. We get it, you hate Bochy. Personally I like Bochy. I think he is a good manager. Is he perfect? No. I don’t always agree with what he does, but I don’t find it necessary to blast him everytime something doesn’t work out. If that makes me a shill in your book I can live with that. I’m not going to go on and on about how smart I am and how dumb Bochy is.

I like to read different opinions about the Giants, even the some of your negative ones. But your hate for Bochy drools all over your posts. I suspect that you think if we had another manager the Giants would be up by 14.5 games rather than 4.5. I don’t see it.

Munchow

These comments are rediculious. First everyone is claiming Arias needs to play everyday, now he PHs and everyone is pissed. BTW why complain about the number of pitchers used? It got us to extras with no runs given up by the bullpen and Lopez in? That is a great place to be. Although he gave it up, the number of pitchers uses before him does not change the outcome.

Bochy has been an excellent manager and the comments in hindsight are petty and ignorant. Give the man props for leading a winning club. Something we hadn’t had for a number of years before he got here. Finally, if Bochu wasn’t all “platoony” in 2010 we don’t win WS. Great bullpen matchups, using Rentaria at SS, Fonteno and Uribe at 3rd over Panda. The man simply pushes buttons that work more than they don’t.

Matthew

Sarcastic, I was wondering where you were, Brother! Welcome back. We stretched our lead while you were out, so any shrinkage will cause you to be put on probation…

Raining down here in Motown today too, but I’m sure my late Daddy’s poplar trees and wood piles on Shaws Flat Road are loving the cleansing.

I think Belt’s splash opened up the skies, and there will be a flood of Giant water shots through the weekend. Bummed the rotation isn’t being adjusted, as my Sunday tickets look rough – missing the Niners opening game and watching Zito/Kershaw. Ouch.

Glad Kruk and Kuip are back “home” tonight, and no more gimmicks or Baer. let’s go Giants….

stealYOURface

Agreed on the gimmicks. Not in September. Two nights in a row with minor league type nonsense during a playoff race. Very corny. Guess they are catering to the beard fearers that need such antics to keep em interested.
Was at a mudhen game in May that a star wars night. Same scoreboard schtick n all.
Then again,who doesn’t think of Bruce lee in the same thought bubble as Willie Mays.

Scooter McFinch

Bochy is a manager of men.

Politics is the wedge that drives men apart and inevitably towards cannibalism.

I have zero problem if you like Romney and are inspired by his work ethic, his faith, his pedigree, his success. I have zero problem if you think Bruce Bochy needs to be fired. I disagree. But I still enjoy The Wisdom Cow because there is enough common ground between Pink Floyd and Kurt Vonnegut to keep us afloat and from chewing each other’s limbs off.

(political aside – close eyes if can’t handle)

I admit , I’m baiting the crowd. But just maybe a fish bites that has something intelligent and worthwhile to say. Perhaps someone feels uncomfortable with the RNC’s platform on social issues, but is philosophically a fiscal conservative and a staunch supporter of laissez-faire capitalism. I’m all ears.

Or maybe someone has something intelligent to say about Buster Posey’s future or giving Vogelsong a skip in the rotation or whatever…

Keep it smart, keep it sassy, keep it fun.

michael

Mr. Sarcastic

LOL….you have ben missed!

Mr. Sarcastic

Hey Matt – Coincidentally while you are at Sunday’s game, I will be listening as I take a drive up to Sonora to visit family. As Stephen Wright once said, “It’s a small world … but I wouldn’t want to have to paint it”.

Scooter McFinch

Raining in Modesto? What ??? Need a splash down here.

If Belt and Sandoval hit HRs plus the pitchers get back on track, this race is over.

michael

Mr. Sarcastic

I’ve got this powdered water, but I don’t know what to add……………

Matthew

Scooter McFootmassage – understood..perhaps we can have healthy banter on all things Poly Sci via email or a separate venue. At least your needling antics aren’t the vulgarity Ruunittt style!

These here Gigantes give me enough daily anxiety that a dollop of politics on top usually send me all Rainman.

Then again, discussing the existential value of Emmanuel Burriss, I suppose, is not of monumental importance, even though we seem to find it triggers emotions to a “political discourse” level herein…

I don’t hate Bochy. I think him average. I think he has pluses and minuses, and I think he is not a fit for a team that needs to play small ball and be able to bring in young position players, even in times of need. I think the Giants can do much better.

What I hate is that this consistent opinion is miscategorized. What I hate is that any decision criticized is “hate.”

If I could go back to Tahoe and have no internet, I’d gladly do so. I’ll take trees and quiet over this crowd any day. In fact, I think I’ll take smog and noise over this crowd.

The funny part of the “you probably wish for loses” argument is that sometimes I wish the Giants did not win in 2010 so all the ignorant Baer PR swallowing crap would not have filled these pages that used to discuss various plays and strategies instead of devolving into “hate” accusations.

Yeah, and I also miss freezing my tail off at the stick next to other die hards that would debate nearly every pitch made. You didn’t yell at each other or label them, you just gave a counter argument and moved on to the next pitch, enjoying the game and the conversation.

This place is more political than people want to realize. Accept the establishment or be ostracized. Most of the posts here seem more like people praising their mirror.

midasmicah

Could certain people please keep the f()king politics out of this column. Baseball is an escape for most of us. Cheezus!!!

Skweezplay

Vogelsong was really struggling, and I am so spoiled that I think he is going to be effective every time out.

Can the coaching staff get creative with the pitching schedule and give these guys an extra day? It seems like every starter could use it. Timmy pitched better on six days, didn’t he? Vogelsong just seemed tortured out there, even as we had to listen to Krukow tell us what great command he had. Cain has struggled and so has Bum.

An extra day AND the day off, and everyone comes back fresh and ready to roll. Who’s with me?

CB the DodgerH8ter

Nice catch by Pablo on that bunt fly. Who says he is fat? Fat people don’t make that play.

CG

I agree with those of you who think Blanco and Crawford should have hit in the 8th. Even a ground ball scores the runner then you could have used Nady to hit for the pitcher. I don’t think having two guys cold from the bench in that situation is the best bet. Also why not bunt Pagan in the 11th to get the runners over. Then a base hit ties it. I think runners on second and third puts more pressure on the pitcher and defense than leaving them at first and second where it takes two hits to score them both in most cases plus it takes away a double play ground ball posibility. I know you can’t win them all but I really think this one got away and could have been a win.

Skweezplay

Lots to love about last night’s game, but alas, the master of the bullpen seemed to be having another off night.

Instead of seeing what everyone has to offer — Hey, let’s throw Machi out there again in another tight spot! — why not manage to win the game.

I also agree (with the benefit of hindsight, I admit) with other posters who noted that the pinchhitters failed miserably in the 8th. Hard to imagine why Crawford — who had hit one of the facing of the arcade in his previous at-bat — was not allowed to hit. Guess it’s just R/L stuff, but dang. Oh yeah, well if it would have worked I am sure I would be saying what a genius move it was and how I certainly would have never thought of it.

Skweezplay

Man, did Belt crush that ball or what?! He is really throwing out some excellent at-bats.

michael

CB

He is fat, but he still can make some great plays……..who knew!! He is still talented and can still play 3rd, so if can live with his weight, and despite his actions on occasion, he is a grown man so it’s his choice.

Nate’sFanMom

It was still a great game.

The excitment of tying the game and almost winning sure beats the days of Rowand swinging and missing three pitches in the dirt.

Can’t win them all. Just win more than LA.

Jstreet

Wisdom, if you don’t like what I write, skip it! I don’t tell you what to write… Oh wait, those are your words. If you look, I’m not telling you what to write, just observing that you’ve become a little lazy, or a little tired. Or tiring. Keep trying.

SFGfan

I liked it when Kruk said there was a purpose to Vog walking an AZ player (I don’t recall who) when he had him on a 1-2 count…”Vogelsong is a good ground ball pitcher.”

One of the most exciting games (and there’s been a lot this year). That 8th inning was painful. Not all moves work out, but Blanco with his uppercut overswing should have been good for a fly ball…heck, I’d take a ground ball DP if it scores the run.

GO GIANTS!!!

Skeptism 101

This is all on Vogelsong. Can’t expect the team to keep on coming from behind. It is his job to keep opposing pitchers at bay. So far in his last outing starting from the Nationals game, he’s been off. He’s trying to strike out people than doing what he’s done well all season long— pitching to contact. Here’s the reason why I think he’s doing that. He is pitching out of the zone a lot more now than before. Maybe he’s tired. Velocity isn’t the only indication of tired/dead arm. Not being able to control your fast ball is another. He isn’t locating his fastball like he use to. That’s the same problem Sanchez has and Lincecum half of this year. You can’t ex

SFGfan

Agreed…the starting pitching will be a concern if this keeps up. Else we’re going to have to count on each pitcher pulling one out of the hat on each start during the postseason (and we SHOULD make it there).

Scooter McFinch

TWC,

you did a really good job of ‘splainin’ yourself. Kudos.

You deserve heaps of credit for being consistent. I’d say most, self-included, are a bunch of flip-flopping ‘hot-doggers’.

Me, I’m just a character in an August Strindberg play, but the decisions made after the WS and the marketing gimmicks and the dynamic pricing are enough to churn the stomach.

And if a little politics gets your stomach churning, better head to Costco for some Maalox because the next 2 months will be intense wherever you go. Even in a state like California, where the electoral votes are already in the bag. And yes, politics exists everywhere. Even in the squeeze play.

Scooter McFinch

And if Bumgarner doesn’t get it done tonight and the Giants are only up 3.5 with the Dodgers coming into town, my stomach will be churning.

Visualize Bumgarner as a giant bottle of Maalox. And Romo as a roll of Rolaids.

kris

I’m tired of balls getting caught in triples’ alley by the opposing team, and looking more comfortable out there than our own guy.

But that’s probably being too hard on Pence. Kubel’s ball was more of a liner while Pablo’s hung up, and Upton’s looked lost as well on a few balls over his head.

mario

Bumgarner needs to go at least 8 innings today if not a complete game, our bullpen is gassed and needs to be fresh for the bums series.

Gooser

TWC-

What I meant by one trick pony was your constant criticism of Bochy. Probably hyperbole, but I think you get my point. It seems like every post you blast Bochy in some way. I actually agree with your point that the Giants should play more small ball, and to a lesser degree about Bochy’s skill with young players.

You say Bochy has pluses and minuses. Maybe I missed the day where you talked about the pluses, I see the minuses daily. Which is fine if you don’t call those who disagree shills. Your point on 2010 comes through in your writing, sometimes you wish they didn’t win the WS so you wouldn’t have to read the “ignorant Baer PR swallowing crap.” I don’t know what to call that rather than hate. Maybe disgust is a better term.

I wouldn’t trade 2010 for anything. It was one of my favorite moments as a fan. Only the 49ers in 1981 ranks higher on the excitement scale for me. I flew out from Iowa to take my Dad to Game 2 of the WS. It was payback for the dozens of times he took me to the Stick and stayed until the last pitch, not worrying about the traffic or if was late on a school night.

I ignore Baer and the PR. Muted the sound when he was on the other night. Any connection between Baer, and the ownership to the team is beyond me because I don’t pay any attention to it. Sabean on down is all I focus on. I don’t understand how if I believe in this team, flaws and all, how it has anything to do with Baer. I love the Giants. I loved them before Baer and I’m sure I will love them after Baer. I really have no opinion on the man.

VamosGigantes

Once in a while, the team will lose a game they’d normally win. If the Giants score six runs in a game, they should win. They didn’t. As far as chemistry and comparisons to 2010 go, I hope that it’s all true. As we all know, though, in 2010 the starting pitchers absolutely dealt in September. I’m not necessarily saying this year’s Giants need the exact same level of starting pitching dominance, but they do need to be better than they’ve been over since Madison Bumgarner’s CG v. Washington. (Ironically, in a weird coincidence, that was also Cabrera’s last game. So, yes, given that the team is 13-6 in those games, chemistry does matter.) Still, the starters’ stats don’t lie: Failed to complete six innings in 10 of 19 games, combined e.r.a. for those starters = 4.82. Awesome comebacks and great chemistry aside, to carry the comparison to 2010 all the way, the starters are going to have to pitch better.
That said, I beleive they can do so.
Go Giants!

SurfCity

I’d rather be a one-trick pony, than someone who changes their comment position daily, if not hourly.

Some are here to talk baseball. Others are just here to hear themselves — and they don’t care so much what they say.

===

On the game, as I sad last night – it was a very exciting game with many plot twists. Tough one to lose, but you get the sense they are not demoralized by it, nor should they be.

SurfCity

The blog shushers are out in full force today

TWC, they’re not telling you not to write — they are just insulting your posts, insulting you and breaking blog rules they assume don’t apply to them. But yeah, they want you to keep writing cuz they are all cool like that. And stuff.

Wow; lots of interesting posts.
My only comment, and hopefully I am not they only one with this issue.
As the games get tighter and more important, I find I am drinking more beer! Is this a problem,or is this just damn fun time of the year? I don’t know. Someone help me.

Skweezplay

Figured the Giants don’t lose many games when they score six or more. Quick check shows five games this season that fall into that catagory:

4/8 @AZ 7-6
4/11 @COLO 17-8
5/25 @MIA 7-6
7/30 NYM 8-7
9/4 AZ 8-6

Scooter McFinch

Richard in Winnipeg says:
September 5th, 2012 at 11:14 am

—

I hope this isn’t a political question, but what beer are you drinking?

I love Bochy as a manager. I didn’t before 2010, in fact, August 2010, as I was not very impressed by his managerial style. But when the tough decisions had to be made, he made them, whether sitting Rowand and Sandoval, starting Torres, leaving Zito off the playoff roster, or hooking pitchers early, he showed the killer instinct that I want my manager to have when we are in the final stretch, playing for all the chips.

In addition, my research shows that Bochy is one of the top managers in winning close 1-run games. During his career, no other manager is even close, he has over 40% of the managerial seasons where the team is at least 8 games over .500 in 1-run games. Saber theory says that teams regress to the mean of zero, which makes sense since there is a winner and loser in each 1-run game. However, he is so many games over that he is statistically significantly over .500 for his managerial career in 1-run games.

Saber theory also says that small ball sucks because sacrificing to move a runner over is not a very productive use of an out except in late game situations where you need that one run. Get the ball into play, you might still advance the runner anyway, plus there is at least a chance that you can get on base and extend the rally. Outs just limits rallies to one run affairs, preventing the crooked number scoring. I’m glad he does not rely on small ball.

I really can’t believe someone said that he almost wished the Giants didn’t win the World Series. I don’t see how any fan could even venture that thought.

As I’ve been saying here at the Merc since Ann Killion asked pointedly what the Giants plans are after Barry, since she could not see it, it is pitching, pitching, and more pitching, plus some good hitting. Year by year, we have added another good pitcher to the rotation, to the bullpen, added another good hitter to the lineup. We are set up nicely to fulfill my prediction from 2008: The Giants will be the Team of the Decade for the 2010’s.

Mr. Sarcastic

michael says:
September 5th, 2012 at 9:49 am
Mr. Sarcastic

I’ve got this powdered water, but I don’t know what to add……………
————————-

If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

I’ve not had much problems with how Bochy handles young players. Putting them in there when they have no idea at the plate is a perfect way to ruin a prospect and make him useless to us for years, until he figures it out with another team. Belt had no idea of how to handle the bat until around mid-season this season. He would just swing wildly, and when he connected, BOOM, but he swished more often than a mop on the deck of the Titanic.

As for all the other prospects, people just don’t really understand the proper level of prospects, thinking that John Bowker or Freddy Lewis was the equivalent of Dustin Pedroia. I think that thundering silence by they and other former Giants prospects shows how on target the Giants decision was with letting them go. Bochy gave a lot of young players a lot of rope, letting them start for over a month at at time, and really, if you want a functional offense, you can’t really have players who are lost as a hitter for over a month at a time, you need some consistency in delivering offense, which many people don’t seem to understand because on the one hand, they complain about the offense, but then they want to put in this young hitter who is not carrying his weight offensively.

Leaving the young player in there does not make him better. Many will get comfortable with failing to hit and not work to get better. Taking him out tells him that he needs to improve if he wants a starting job.

If you are happy with Belt like he hit in 2011, that to me is aiming way low: I want him hitting like he was in AA in 2010. If he hits like that, he’s then like Joey Votto: high contact rate, high average, high walks, high power, able to steal bases, plus gold glove defense. Belt of 2011 is much like a Mark Reynolds, a three true outcome player but not much else. You need to have the patience to teach a capable player how to do the right things and attain his true potential, rather than panic that the offense sucks now and try to rush the process of development.

A good way to see how good a prospect is to look at his contact rate, which is mathematically the opposite of his strikeout rate (using AB as base). A good hitter in the majors can get his contact rate above 85%. I’ve found that a good guide as to when a hitter is figuring things out up here or not. Historically too, the better the contact rate, the more likely he is to hit for a high average. I mean, that’s obvious, but once they get above 85%, they are that much more likely to have a good career.

Shandler’s Baseball Forecaster explains this well and in greater detail, I wholeheartedly recommend his book to anyone interested in learning more about baseball and statistical keys to understand hitters and pitchers.

Jstreet

By all means TWC, yell louder. Just don’t yell fire when it’s only smoke. Even those old adages are old. Folks around here I think value your input.

BKGiant

The surprise is that all the pitchers are going through a funk at the same time. While so many hitters were getting their act together early in the season, the pitching rotation carried the team. Now, while the pitchers are getting their act back together, the hitters are carrying the team.

It kind of reminds me of a couple, one of whom is a morning person, the other a night owl. Right at about 3pm their personalities converge and things are blessed. Let’s hope the Giants hitting and pitching converge soon. When they do, ther’ll be some a@* whoopins in store for the rest of the NL West.

ClutchUp

There have been some great back and forths. The civility among all of us is reaching an all time high in my estimation. We can tell each other what we agree or disagree with their point of view and we can mention what we agree or disagree with Sabean’s supposed “desparate moves” as “Bonilla” said on the earlier thread (not sure what he meant because all clubs expand in September and last nights use of 20+ players was because 15 was trying to win the game). We can also agree or disagree with how Bochy does his thing.

My concerns are both difficult and different. On the field when I make a decent lineup change or injection or when I send a runner from second base when in a blink of an eye I thought of holding him – and – IF (biggest little word in the world) all my moves work out I feel good, yet humble in my momentary success because it is the player(s) who made my move look good.

When I do the above and my lineup fails because I could not leave well enough alone, my game day substitution for my regular rightfielder played two balls into errors and my lefthanded pinch hitter in for my right handed batter – did not execute properly and hit a right side ground ball with our inning leadoff hitter at second base with no outs – then everything about MY moves that did not work out – makes me feel inadequate for the moment and it makes me want to show OUTER frustration with my own body language.

The big BUT is that as the momentary leader of the parade you cannot show any cracks in your leadership abilities or the CLUB-TEAM will pick up on it.

When we manipulate our thoughts onto paper in a criticism of what just went wrong from say last night – it all – leaves our amatuer or professional opinions open for debate regarding our baseball acumen, our baseball IQ or the depths of our knowledge base regarding actually playing or managing the game 3 steps ahead or finding ways when behind to still compete and possibly win the game.

We all come from different backgrounds, public defenders, prosecutors, lawyers, government workers, private sector, Self Employed, Students, Mothers and Fathers, Boys and Girls, Ex-Players who finished at 12 years old on the 60ft field, HS players on the 90ft field, Fastpitch girls softball, Slow pitch soft ball, High School players and coaches or College Players or Coaches – So our viewpoints are going to be WIDE and varied depending on our knowledge base acumulation.

This great game has brought us all together on first Ebaggs and now EGiants. I enjoyed reading (most of) todays critiques and defenses of many things. ONE thing: You don’t squeeze home the runner at third base with no outs and the Dbacks playing way in and Gibson expecting it and Charles Nagy having his pitchers prepared for it. A pitchout destroys that play and takes the bat out of Arias’ hands. Maybe with one out though…. 😀

Vogey looked like he good stuff but the D-Backs were going the other way with the outside pitches and getting hits. Even Kennedy hit a pitch that was a foot outside into right for an RBI hit. The only 2 hits that were to the pull field were the bullets by Hill off of curve balls. The D-Backs either knew what was coming or had a successful game plan to hit Vogey. It worked.

I thought Bochy used the wrong pitch hitter in the eighth with Aries. In the first/third no outs situation game tied, infield playing in all you want is for the hitter to make solid contact. Aries has not been making solid contact the last couple of games and has a huge swing. Theriot would have been the guy but he had been used. Nady or Hector was the better choice. With first/third 1 out game tied infield playing back for the double play you want someone who can push a bunt into no mans land between 1st, 2nd, and the pitchers mound. Perhaps Pill would have been the best choice, Pence scores, Giants win.

In the close games and the playoffs, small ball wins games and every Giant should be able to bunt to get a run across. A sac fly is nice but not always doing able. Sometimes all you need is a little push bunt.

The Giants have 7 more games with the D-Backs and they need to do a better job pitching to Goldschmidt. Krukow keeps saying he is a middle in type of hitter, but I notice the Dodgers pitched him in with fast balls and he had trouble getting to them. He is an excellent low ball hitter which is why he kills Timmy. He does well on gong to right on the outside pitches. The Giants need to throw him hard stuff at the belt on the inner half of the plate. Use soft stuff away and curves in the dirt to set up the fast ball at the belt.

brabon99

pence botched 3 balls in right

once your pitcher knows that he cannot trust the d to its job, puts more pressure on him to throw the k ball

if blanco plays, pence must be in left

Richard in Winnipeg

Scooter McFinch says:
September 5th, 2012 at 11:33 am 81..
—

I hope this isn’t a political question, but what beer are you drinking?

What’s on tap? – brought to you by Tap Plastics.

Heh Scooter;
Note a political question. Sometime Lucky Lager, sometimes Labatts, sometimes Corona’s. Not all beer is created equal. Gosh I hope that wasn’t a political statement.

michael

Mr. Sarcastic

If you saw a heat wave, would you wave back?

ClutchUp

This morning finally – I got to see Kennedy’s flair to shallow right field that fell in – the pitch was 2-3 baseballs off the outside corner but kudos to Kennedy for diving out there and shanking it in front of Pence. Using my eyes and obviously in hindsight – for one shining moment – Pence thought of diving for the ball. I think his length allows him to make that catch but he obviously did not want the ball to fly by him had he dived.

The Kubel ball: Kubel “beat” Lopez’s pitch number one and Pence @ 6’4 and “long” made a valiant attempt. Some say he butchered that ball, I disagree. His route was decent and had the ball had “more air” he may have made the catch. Saying after the fact that we are tired of watching other balls get caught by other players is kind of narrow mined.

The Dexter Fowlers, Cameron Maybin’s and Justin Upton’s of the world are gazelles and are made to track down balls. LOOK at the balls Kubel “gave” us in LF by his slow-footed-ness. It works out in the end. If you watch American League highlights almost every night some young, speedy outfielder with a borderline-sized outfielder’s glove is making a tremendous play to rob a hitter of extra

YES, I do think the cumulitive innings starting from way back in 2010 are having some effect into 2011 and now 2012. You really do not cure that sluggishness by a bullpen session or a skipped start. To us it makes sense but to the modern day starting pitcher or reliever — getting it back has to do with ramping up ones non-starting days off both lower body leg work (running) or weight room work. Pitchers NEED to run or bleed out the Lactic Acid that builds up from every 5 day starts leading to 30+ starts per season @ 200 + innings per season. At their level you don’t rest or sleep in the way others may do. They have to offset the daily grind by having faith in the workout routines set up for each individual by the tremendous training staff.

Atlas

I anticipate Pence improving as an outfielder, in particular, at AT&T Park. Patience is not only for rookies.

Scooter McFinch

In case anybody didn’t notice,

Obsessive Giants Compulsive (OGC) just dropped some serious knowledge on this outfit. Go back and re-read. Especially you, Mr. Udder-contempt for Bochy.

If Brandon Belt played in Cincinatti, he’d probably have 15 homeruns by now and could develop into a 30 HR guy. But he plays in the homerun graveyard for lefties. Belt has been kind of Ishikawa-Plus at times, JT Snow-esque at others. Joey Votto may a touch high of a ceiling. Kasey Kotchman a bit low. Maybe John Olerud is about right.

How ’bout he just becomes Brandon Belt – .280ish/.360ish/.440ish 15 HRs, 40 2Bs, 8 3Bs, 10 SBs. That would work. And would assist management with decisions about extending Posey’s tenure behind the dish.

Scooter McFinch

Mr. Sarcastic,

You still look disgusted.
Say it ain’t so.

Scooter McFinch

Did Pence really take a bad route on that Kubel triple? Bad read? Just a bad outfielder?

Giants can probably comfortably low-ball him in arbitration.

channelclemente

The next time I read somebody saying squeeze with a guy hitting .300+ at bat, I’m going to be rude.

Scooter McFinch

My hot-tub time machine would certainly not undo the 2010 championship. It would seek to correct some of the euphoric decisions though.

Included would be the euphoria driven desire to repeat and therefore trade Zach Wheeler for Carlos Beltran.

How nice would it be to spot start the kid throwing 95 versus some September tired bats?

channelclemente

Obsessive read The Book, and paid attention.

michael

Obsessive

Chiming in with what several have already pointed out, great posts. Well researched and thought out. Thanks for the input, and bravo on your posts!

Pence is the most awkward outfielder I have seen in quite awhile. He makes routine plays look like great effort plays. His first step is worse than anyone I can think of. He made a nice play on the assist to second base but I really think he is a below average right fielder that needs to be removed in the late innings. It is as if he makes the catch by his sheer will to do it, not any innate talent that has been bestowed on him. I would love to see him turn it up in the next week or so.

Happ2125

Kennedy no longer owns us. But D-Backs hitters have our pitchers number. We need to be better tonight. Turn it to the Mad Bum. I think is cutter, slider and elevated tailing fastball will be key to keep these D-Backs hitters from being comfortable and extending their hands. D-Backs righty hitters love fastballs away and offspeed up and the lefties love the ball middle-in. So Mad Bum will look to tame those lefty hitters and pound in all day on those hands of the D-Backs righty hitters.

Hard fought game, came up short, had our opportunities to win it with runners on 1st and 3rd and no outs in a tie game and couldn’t even get the ball out of infield and left the runners stranded. I like how Boch is utilizing the bullpen with the short hook, but for the hitting side, he is getting trigger happy on these lefty-righty matchups. I would’ve let Blanco hit cause he is good contact hitter with runners on base and can do a lot with bunt slap hit, etc. But yeah and Crawford has been hot and a good contact hitter in the 2nd half so yea didn’t understand that move either as he has been hitting lefties and righties. I think Boch needs to stick with the core:

Posey could use a day off today with the sinker righty Cahill on the mound tonight. Hector is a good low ball hitter so yeah and stronger from the left side. And Nady needs to play over Blanco everyday from here on out. Is more of a presence and is having good at bats and swinging it good as well. Hitting .400 with the Giants and has 3 RBI, few runs scored and also isn’t afraid to walk.

ClutchUp

September 5th, 2012 at 12:42 pm 95..Did Pence really take a bad route on that Kubel triple? Bad read? Just a bad outfielder?Giants can probably comfortably low-ball him in arbitration.

Not sure who said bad, my reference was “decent”. SuperDuperAthletic outfielders will give their team SOMETHING special defensively but guys that I adore like Maybin and Fowler are not offensive talents.

Pence will be a Giant for awhile. His apparent scuffling will go away and one day everybody not just those who spout “he shoulda squeezed” right there 😀 – will agree that Pence is giving us his version of “all out or get out”. He is not the Cyclops everyone is making him out to be. Who cares what the Phillie Fans think of his defense. When we first got him I spouted off out of my neck to put him in LF without doing my homework. He hasn’t played a lot of LF – thus and so – he’s not playing there … at least not this year.

Punter Hence, Hooch Hunter, Hunty McPency, or Buster Honey Pence is a very easy guy to root for as a Giant Fan.

CC: Go ahead 🙄 you can be rude to the Suicide Squeeze Afficienados, I’ll let ya.

We SSqueeze all the time in HS, because it’s EASY to out coach the other part time volunteer coaches.

Pence is doing fine in RF. That ball was smoked by Kubel and barely got over the outreach of Pence in the gap if you are referring to that as how he is below average rf, which I totally disagree. But yeah. Our starting pitching needs to be better down the stretch. They have been getting lit up lately with our offense and back end of bullpen carrying this team. Our middle relief is still shaky and suspect but yeah. Just heard on MLB Network, Giants used 11 pitchers yesterday. THe luxury of having a long pitching staff and expanded rosters I guess.

CB

Bumgarner needs to go 6 or 7 innings to give us a chance to win tonight and I think he will. He only went 4 innings in his last start in a loss so yea that is not Bumgarner like and I think we will see the Mad Bum and his snot rockets tonight. And I think Pablo and Belt go off again tonight. Belt has been on fire in 2nd half, same with Crawford. Stick with them. Enough of the platoon BS. At the worst, they are above average defensively so yeah but they have producing with the bats lately.

channelclemente

CB,

I think you’re right, in any case, I’d worry about who hung that slider he hit if I were a going to worry about a ‘fix’.

Mr. Sarcastic

Scooter,

Yeah, Gravatar is apparently holding me hostage in my “Disgusted” body. I have calmed down and moved past the Melky incident (at least until the time comes when the front office considers bringing him back).

——————

Michael –
There’s a pizza place near where I live that sells only slices. In the back you can see a guy tossing a triangle in the air.

michael

Mr. Sarcastic

South City Jim

I was shocked that Kubel was in LF instead of Parra in the bottom of the 11th last night. Had they already used Parra as a PH?

JC

Belt is starting to show flashes of greatness. That 2-run splash bomb was clutch and I hope to see more of that in the near future with him. Nonetheless, Belt looks confident up there and has a good eye. That is deadly for opponents and Belt is very dangerous right now. Mix in Nady there too and our lineup is deep and consistently scoring runs. I just saw we almost have generated 600 runs as a unit (596 to be exact) right behind the D-Backs who play half their games in a hitter-friendly environment. So our offense ranks up there in the league but our pitching has took a step back and starting to fall to middle of the pack. Need to get better!

And flash forward to the big Dodgers series this weekend: It will be Beckett vs. Lincecum on Orange Friday, then Capuano vs. Cainer, and then Sunday will be either Blanton vs. Zito on Sunday ESPN game of the week unless Mattingly moves Kershaw up a day to pitch sunday. That means Boch will more than likely move up Vogelsong a day with the offday thurs to matchup against Kershaw. And that would be an intriguing matchup: Kershaw vs. Vogelsong. Vogelsong has won 2 of their 3 matchups this season and is coming off a rough start yesterday. So he is determined. But he did have good strikeout stuff, just threw a lot of pitches and DBacks capitalized on the mistakes. They have a good offensive club so yeah. Vogelsong will pitch better next time out and down the stretch. I feel it.

michael

Mr. Sarcastic

Oops!

If it’s a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, them someone somwhere is making a penny!

ClutchUp

John says: September 5th, 2012 at 1:04 pm 84…

Pence: Very awkward; Big effort; Results will always be sketchy; He’ll get a crash course maybe next year from Randy Winn or Roberto Kelly because he’s running on automatic pilot now, not wanting to make a mistake, thus he’s making them by learning on the fly.

obsessivegiantscompulsive says:
September 5th, 2012 at 11:49 am
I’ve not had much problems with how Bochy handles young players. Putting them in there when they have no idea at the plate is a perfect way to ruin a prospect and make him useless to us for years, until he figures it out with another team.
===========

Great stuff- thanks!

My concern for that inexperienced batter is very related to the mental side of baseball. If the coaches aren’t seeing adjustments by that batter that are likely to improve the lack of production at the plate, sending that player out to the batter’s box in a game is likely sending him out to fail. … again, and again, and again. I greatly prefer a strategy that encourages success. Better for that player, better for the team.

Mr. Sarcastic

JC –
I think I saw somewhere in Bleacher Report (a more credible source you will not find!) that Bochy has said he will not alter the rotation matchups even if the Dodgers do…?

ClutchUp

SouthCity: Gerardo Parra pinch hit for Pitcher Lindstrom in the T10th and then Collmenter replaced Parra in the order…

Scooter, I had the same discussion with OGC on those two topics before. He could have been more thorough by pointing out the counterarguments we later both agreed existed (Hoffman + Wilson certainly effected those 1 run game numbers and the young player being left on the bench for extended periods, demoted and/or publicly trashed are not exactly the negative reinforcement technique of choice). Remember, he “doesn’t develop players.” So an argument that the benching are his form of teaching don’t exactly fly with me.

Still, as to one run games, there is something else to consider. Bochy’s strategy, IMO, doesn’t make looking at 1 run game results as instructive as it may be for other managers. He believes very much in the “do anything to tie up a game” and hope for the best afterwards theory of game management. Sometimes, this clearly has worked, resulting in a one run win. Other times, it results in a 2+ run loss.

If possible (I do not delve so deeply into the stat archives), an analysis of managerial records in games within 1 run as of the 7th inning would be much more instructive. Should it be shown that Bochy excels in those situations (which he still may), perhaps it would give me cause to reconsider.

And no, I never really wish the Giants did not win it in 2010. I just dislike the price of the win on occasion, similar to how, while I love AT&T, it’s cost can be difficult sometimes as well (if you ever found yourself surrounded by an entire section of people knowing nothing of baseball, not being hyperbolic – they literally don’t even know the rules and talk about “points,” then you get what I mean). It’s one thing to watch someone learn the sport anew, it’s another to be surrounded by those that are not even trying to learn about what they are watching. Snobbish? sure, but it is like going to the opera (which I never have) to be surrounded by people admiring and talking about the opera house over the opera itself.

Jstreet, it is rare that I bring up a pro-Bochy point, though I go out of my way to do so on occasion, when he does impress me. It’s that the rest of the board is filled with posts often giving him too much credit. I have a Public Defender’s brain. I often look first to identify that which goes against the flow, that which others may be overlooking (like that INCREDIBLE SET OF COMEBACKS – “against crap teams” being left out of all but a few posts all week).

In fact, the single greatest err regarding people’s criticisms of my posts occurs when they tie me to the loss=complaints crowd. While it does happen, I am often own that points out something good when the rest of the board is dwelling on the bad (usually a loss) and vice versa. Not every post, of course, but in most threads they can be found.

Last, I do harp on Bochy and that I can’t wait for him to be gone. I do it because I do not believe the Giants will be a consistently great club with him at the helm. I believe it through and through. For each great move he also adds a Beltran/Tejada/Huff type decision that can ruin an entire season. The idea that his career .500 record is based solely on personnel (yet he won divisions with SD, too) seems awfully naive to me.

Anyways, and I apologize for going back to a political comparison, but I believe in a public option for health care, and when on sites discussing health care, I don’t shut up about it, either. If you really believe in something and you care, you don’t stop because others don’t like reading it.

JD4SF

I’ve seen some posts with folks questioning all the subs during the game. Thought I’d revisit a couple of my prior posts to help reduce the Maalox distribution …

JD4SF says: September 3rd, 2012 at 7:16 pm
I just took a few minutes to watch the recorded postgame interview with Bochy. I hope others also watched so they know what to expect. Bochy said the next week or so he’ll be plugging in recent additions to see how they do.

JD4SF says: September 4th, 2012 at 4:03 am
We’ve added more players, including pitchers. Over the next week or so we’ll see a shakedown cruise while Bochy and the coaches sort out who is up to speed for what kind of contribution and do a bit of tweaking, while at the same time staying focused on the win. This is not about replacing a starting player, but assessing depth and when and how to most effectively utilize that depth, or if changes need to be made in that depth.

Some folks might find this process a bit unnerving – “Why is Bochy playing X instead of Y???” – and I expect to see a few more gray hairs in the mirror, but when the dust settles we should see more stability and move forward that much more strongly. Meanwhile our biggest strength is the TEAM chemistry, and everyone – including bench / bullpen – is expected to contribute for that TEAM effort and TEAM win … one game at a time.

michael

Mr. Sarcastic and Scooter (didn’t want to leave you out!)

I live on a one way street that’s also a dead end…..not sure how I got there.

Scooter, I saw Steven Wright when I was a young teen, before he was famous, because I was allowed in a club to watch my cousin (a former comedian with the Screaming Memes). Must have been around 1984. I still can’t believe my cousin’s act was the headliner above his. To this day, I can still hear . . .

“I’m really confused. Bomb, tomb, and comb don’t rhyme.”

Admittedly, the joke is easier to follow in print. I loved it live, and was one of the few to really laugh, but that was probably due to most being a bit too drunk around me to figure it out quickly.

The Oracle

I don’t think Bochy is a bad manager, but I do think the weather played a role in last night’s game. Studies have shown that, in warmer weather, Bochy’s head expands slightly, allowing more room for abstract thought. Last night’s expanded roster prompted more thoughts in Bochy’s head, but the cold weather resulted in insufficient cranial volume for Bochy to process properly those thoughts. Hence, the excessive pinch hitting and pitching changes. I suggest he wear a heated turban tonight to preventive the same problems from re-occurring.

I think for Bochy to move on up into another position in the Organization as to promote a Decker or a Wotus or a Righetti, or god forbid, capture a Francona – something would have to occur like in Alou’s last year in 2006 where SF went 76 & 85 and finished 11½ games behind the Pad’s and the Dod’s.

As I’ve stated before – when SF did not renew Alou’s contract I personally was zeroing in on Wotus, Bud Black, Fregosi or Pinella. Several of those guys have ties to Sabean due to his extreme ties to anything East Coast or Ex Yankee (Tidrow-Balboni etc).

Before Sabean appeared leaning towards Black or Wotus, a long time and since passed away Giant Scout called Sabean and said: “You better give Bochy a look, SD might be making a change” This is HOW the SF Giant organization operates and it won’t veer off unless there is a Larry Baer change or a significant change in the Investor’s Group.

If you Google the SF Giants Front Office and then click on the baseball operation profiles of Sabean, Tidrow, Evans, Alou, John Barr, Tony Siegle, Jeremy Shelley, Fred Stanley, Yeshayah Goldfarb, Joe Lefebvre, Paul Turco, Ed Creech, Matt Nerland, Doug Mapson, Pablo Peguero, John Cox, Jack Hiatt, Joe Amalfitano and Jim Davenport – we will all see that there are symbiotic relationships ALL up and down the board.

Sabean trusts NOBODY who is not already inside THE Cocoon. If somebody dies or leaves THEY hire somebody who they immediately already know or the hire has to be inter-connected through somebody knowing someone and they have to be vouched for.

That said, like it or not it would be counterproductive for me to “root against” some of Bochy’s moves “just because” of something I don’t like about his managerial skills/during the game skills. Sabean and Bochy and MANY others are connected at the hip. Bochy’s wife was mid wife to Sabean’s Mrs. Amanda and so on and so on.

To make a change Kenny Williams or Billy Beane would need to be the GM. Bochy would be out of a job from about 24 hours to 5 days.

Scooter McFinch

Here’s the thing about politics:

TWC really has his feet dug in with his position on Bochy. He has arguments lined up. He has passion.

There is no line of reasoning or counter-argument that is going to make him soften his stance. He’s committed. Sure, it may be stubbornness, but in reality it is philosophical. Bochy is not his guy.

The same applies to politics. Abortion is not your thing. Government regulation is not your thing. Religion in government is not your thing. And so forth.

The trick is to find people with a ballot who don’t have a stance and haven’t found their passion. Preferably they live in a swing state.

I really like seeing reference in his comments to the TEAM chemistry:
“When you play for each other, good things happen.”

—

When you swing hard at a pitch down the middle of the plate, good things happen.

🙂

dgg

Thanks for the link to BB’s new blog, JD. I was looking for a new Brandon (whichever Brandon) blog this morning, but figured it was way to early for it to have been written yet.

Lefty

Hi everyone!

Went to bed early so I could catch an early flight and spent all day flying to Indiana for a conference at Purdue. Chilling at the Indy airport right now and catching up on posts while waiting for my shuttle to West Lafayette (where Purdue is). (I know some of you assume I never really work, but you’d be surprised, actually. I just multitask well, being female and all.)

Anyway, I’m as happy as I could be about last night’s game considering it was a loss. (The Dodgers losing helped my state of mind, I’ll admit.) Several things I’m really happy about:

Pablo: I thought he had a great game and has looked better at the plate for days now. I noticed last night he doesn’t flail at those high outside fastballs like he used to a couple years ago.

BRANDONS! I’m so happy these two young guys are coming along so well. Last offseason on this blog, channelclemente used to tuck the Brandons in early every night so that they could be rested up for the season. We all had such hopes for them and talked about them a lot. It took a lot of faith and patience by a lot of people to get to where we are now–and I think it speaks to the resilience, determination, and work ethic of both young men that they hung in there when things weren’t going well and Bay Area media (and many fans) were crucifying. They’re both really fun to watch now, and I look forward to many more years of this.

Am I worried about the starters and especially Vogelsong? Yep. I have such admiration for him and want him to do well really badly. Thinking good thoughts for next time.

brabon99 says: September 5th, 2012 at 12:06 pm 88..pence botched 3 balls in right once your pitcher knows that he cannot trust the d to its job, puts more pressure on him to throw the k ball if blanco plays, pence must be in left

—This particular group of pitchers – doubtful they feel that way. As far as “botched” – I will respectively disagree. Do other RFders make that play – probably, but doubtful that Pence is going to LF.

Kubel “beat” Lopez’s pitch, nothing more, nothing less. Don Baylor is an extremely GOOD hitting coach and Gibson is probably riding herd on these guys hard. Former Giant Matt Williams PICKS signs like nobody’s business so watch out if we attempt to squeeze. It will be picked by either Nagy, Trammel, Williams or one of the Snakes in the dugout.

Skweezplay

Lefty — nice post, Girl! Have fun in Indiana. Got a slingbox? If not, Ted will tell you how. Ted?

ClutchUp

Pav’s has returned after his “transfusion” NEW THREAD

Woj

Burriss still reeks. One hit does not make a season or career.

Burriss is like a drug addiction to Bochy and Sabean. They are told to quit cold turkey probably by an owner or all the booing fans but something in Burriss’ stats (the ridiculously low slugging % perhaps or is in the low BA or low OBP?) lures them into going on a bender and getting their Burriss fix. It is too bad we now how to endure a 1 for 15 ‘streak’ from Manny to send him packing again. 14 more useless outs, uggh.

CB the DodgerH8ter

Last night in the 11th the zipper broke on my Giants jacket. We lost in the 11th. Coincidence? Maybe but why take a chance? I had the zipper replaced today. Rush job.

dgg

CB, that’s funny.

anotherabidgfan

The best loss in a long time. Maybe bigger momentum builder at this point, than Pablos shot would have created. Thank you John Miller, no other way to feel like you’re there from afar. Thanks Pavs.

TooMuchMilk

14 out of the past 31 games they have given up 5 runs or more. Pitching is no longer vaunted or able to be counted on.