00:00:13 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
00:05:13 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp
00:06:07 cinolt [473a1288@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.58.18.136] has joined #lisp
00:07:11 -!- ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:08:15 Sup dawgs. I'm trying to learn lisp (Scheme specifically) and I'm reading the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. One of the exercises is "Exercise 1.3. Define a procedure that takes three numbers as arguments and returns the sum of the squares of the two larger numbers.". And this is my attempt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133862 Can somebody give some advice as to how I can improve it? As it is, it doesn't seem very s
00:08:24 Have to do a lot of work in order to make it work for 4, 5, or n numbers.
00:09:19 kofno [~kofno@72.240.63.121] has joined #lisp
00:09:26 you perhaps are looking for #scheme. but perhaps you could just use max.
00:09:32 cinolt: you might have better luck asking #scheme
00:09:41 Has scheme got MAX?
00:09:55 Also, that's probably not the point of the excercise :)
00:10:34 My attempt just seemed very "brute forcey", because I enumerated all the possibilities, which would grow exponentially with the number of arguments.
00:10:41 Anyway I'll try asking #scheme
00:11:18 cinolt: Also, > and < can take more than two arguments.
00:11:25 cinolt: Simplifying your code greatly.
00:11:36 Ah, that would help a lot.
00:12:21 (defun scheme-sum (&rest nums) (apply #+ nums))
00:12:34 -!- amado [~amado@187.209.56.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:13:01 that should take up to 536870911 arguments on my laptop :)
00:13:19 cinolt: Stick around and have a look at Common Lisp, too.
00:14:11 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
00:16:43 -!- cinolt [473a1288@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.58.18.136] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
00:17:11 moai [~m@141.70.23.87] has joined #lisp
00:18:51 hi. I'm new to lisp and clisp. I'm using clisp on archlinux and I'm wondering if archlinux uses a somehow modified version. It seems (quit) or (bye) should stop the clisp interpreter, but that doesn't work for me. Are there any archlinux users here that know more about this?
00:20:01 moai, works for me (on archlinux)
00:20:07 moai: first, and I say that you should avoid clisp to start out with!
00:20:30 (I usually use sbcl)
00:20:58 Thra11, any idea why it shouldn't work for me?
00:21:09 SBCL, CCL, ECL, CMUCL, ABCL, Lispworks, Allegro ... all are significanly better (imo_ then clisp
00:21:30 moai, no idea, sorry
00:21:54 drewc, I'm trying to run act-r which uses lisp. It seems to work with CMUlisp though, which is fine.
00:21:57 moai: maybe it's ext:quit or something
00:22:20 Bike: yes, that works
00:23:11 moai: lisp is a term that can be uses a lot to mean a lot of different things. This is a Common Lisp channel, so our advice is usually only for common lisp , and not the other lisps that act-r runs on.
00:23:30 amado [~amado@187.209.56.19] has joined #lisp
00:24:05 drewc, sorry, i know. I just wanted to give some background as to why I was trying to exit stop the clisp compiler
00:25:24 however, is there a particular reason why you advised me against clisp? just out of interest
00:28:03 -!- amado [~amado@187.209.56.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
00:29:55 yes, there is. I have been a lisper for like 9 years straight at this point, and contracted to companies that use sbcl, ccl, allegro and lispworks. In my 9 years of being a lisper, I have never needed, desired, or wanted to use clisp, and besides, the GPL makes for some interesting legal issues.
00:32:52 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aclm41.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....]
00:34:39 drewc, I have to apologize again. I was under the impression that clisp is like the go-to-implementation of common lisp. I just assumed that because of the abbreviation clisp...
00:34:52 thx, though!
00:34:53 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
00:34:54 *drewc* either loves or hates the fact that CLISP as a C in the front, so noobs think it is common lisp specifically, and ANSI X3J13 as well.
00:35:43 moai: well, I am glad that you now know different, and maybe for the rest of your lke you will look at acronyms a little bit different :)
00:35:53 minion: hyperspec
00:35:53 hyperspec: The Common Lisp HyperSpec can be found at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/ - or go to the contents at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
00:39:36 and, heh, thank you moai, for I am sure you looked at common-lisp.net and saw nothing relevant ... I since I know the owner of that site intimately ... well, the front page will be the first to be "re-done" .
00:41:11 amado [~amado@209.99.3.103] has joined #lisp
00:44:00 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
00:48:39 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp
00:49:25 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
00:49:39 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:49:56 engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp
00:50:40 ramus_ [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
00:51:11 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp
00:51:11 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host]
00:51:11 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp
00:51:34 -!- asciilifeform [~asciilife@pool-71-191-43-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:51:44 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
00:52:25 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
00:54:00 sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.40.171] has joined #lisp
00:54:07 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
00:54:51 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
00:55:08 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
00:55:49 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp
00:56:32 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
00:56:36 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host]
00:56:36 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp
01:05:02 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
01:08:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
01:12:14 -!- moai [~m@141.70.23.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
01:19:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-212.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
01:21:30 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp
01:22:57 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
01:24:26 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
01:25:39 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
01:28:51 QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
01:29:02 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
01:32:13 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp
01:34:30 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit]
01:36:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.178.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
01:39:43 impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.140] has joined #lisp
01:40:46 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-]
01:41:49 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp
01:51:48 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp
01:52:12 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist]
01:57:51 Hmm, I've been cleaning up lisp-unit to record all tests. I use GSLL as the canonical test of lisp-unit. The development version of lisp-unit that comprehensively stores all results from a run takes longer than previous versions and uses much more memory.
01:58:24 Hopefully I've not created a monster that scales so poorly as to make it unusable for large numbers of unit tests.
01:58:59 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.139] has joined #lisp
02:00:22 18 seconds in SBCL, 3 seconds in GC, 15 running and recording the tests.
02:00:56 ThomasH: can I convince you to switch to FiveaM ?
02:01:19 fe[nl]ix: Probably not, but I'll look at it for the next 5 minutes.
02:02:24 fe[nl]ix: You'll have an even harder time getting LiamH to switch GSLL, it has 4,023 tests.
02:07:32 -!- Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:12:01 -!- riverc4c [~grive@pool-71-183-214-254.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp
02:14:04 fe[nl]ix: DuckDuckGo tells me you wrote an article titled, "The future of FiveAM", but when I go to it, I'm told it is deleted.
02:17:17 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp
02:18:02 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
02:19:27 fe[nl]ix: Okay, I spent 15 minutes. I like some aspects, but have spent some time updating lisp-unit to store the results in a results database that can be interrogated in detail. It also lends itself to post-processing to generate TAP output, for example.
02:20:03 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:20:03 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl
02:20:16 fe[nl]ix: herep
02:20:22 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:22:10 ThomasH: yes
02:22:39 what's TAP ?
02:22:42 fe[nl]ix: Why would you want me to switch to FiveAM?
02:23:06 fe[nl]ix: Test Anything Protocol, some people seem to like it, I don't really understand what it is useful for.
02:23:57 ThomasH: there are too many test libraries
02:25:03 TAP was designed for communication between a test suite and a build system
02:25:09 it's a Perl thing
02:27:12 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:28:35 fe[nl]ix: Oh, well, I don't have a problem with the number of test libraries.
02:29:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp
02:31:15 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:31:51 fe[nl]ix: If there is a technical reason to switch, I'll switch in a heartbeat.
02:33:14 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp
02:35:53 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
02:37:30 fe[nl]ix: http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries
02:37:42 fe[nl]ix: The recommended test library is Stefil
02:38:03 hmm
02:42:00 that page is a little obsolete
02:45:12 yes, LOCAL-TIME should be mentioned
02:46:31 -!- banannagram is now known as bananagram
02:46:44 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl]
02:46:52 drewc` [~user@74.198.150.249] has joined #lisp
02:49:01 -!- drewc [~user@74.198.150.249] has quit [Killed (niven.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))]
02:49:01 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc
02:51:58 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp
02:53:33 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
02:53:50 I take it back, the new comprehensive test results are not that bad compared to the old lisp-unit. I just checked out the master branch without comprehensive results and it is not much faster at all.
02:54:39 billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.229] has joined #lisp
02:54:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.229] has quit [Changing host]
02:54:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp
02:57:24 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
02:59:11 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-188-249.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
03:00:29 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;]
03:01:08 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]`
03:06:08 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-191.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
03:07:37 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl]
03:12:56 how do I learn lisp
03:12:57 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:17:08 nan_ [~candodget@46.197.116.88] has joined #lisp
03:17:11 Depends on who you are, what you already know
03:23:40 I'm just a novice programmer :(
03:27:20 francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp
03:27:30 Maybe scheme is your first option
03:28:02 beaky: try a book. A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation is supposed to be good, and you can read it online.
03:28:03 CL is too complicate for novice programmer ?
03:29:10 sw2wolf: why?
03:29:18 what would be the most detailed/complete documentation on macros? a link, a search phrase, please! i am tired of "simple tutorials". reading some library codes but it would be much better if i known what they are trying to solve.
03:29:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:29:32 PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-75-185-214-178.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
03:29:36 Why would it make a difference to a novice programmer?
03:29:36 First, choosing a CL implementation will frustrate a newbie
03:30:15 nan_: implementing a small evaluator with macroexpansion might help.
03:30:16 -!- kofno [~kofno@72.240.63.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:31:12 sw2wolf, there are lots of scheme implementations too
03:31:47 Bike: what do you mean? evaluator? are you talking about writing the lisp eval?
03:31:56 nan_: yes.
03:33:52 nan_: or you could read the standard. like http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm But I think building something is a pretty good way of understanding it.
03:34:03 Bike: i am having trouble with a few constructs, i need to find out first what they are for, a few questions needs to be answered, that is why i am after a detailed documentation. for example what `(,a ,b) and not just (a b)
03:34:16 ah thanks for the link
03:34:37 nan_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm on backquote. spec's your friend
03:34:55 sw2wolf: so here's the thing, a guy could join any channel and say "How do I learn A programming language", and always there will be someone ther who will say "You should learn A++" or "Y" or "Don't learn A 2.x, the future is A 3.x"
03:35:59 So, frankly, I doubt its a big deal either way, but you can drown newbies in "learn this not that". Thats all.
03:39:21 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-129-63.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
03:41:58 seggy [~segmond@adsl-99-150-129-63.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
03:42:03 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp
03:43:07 -!- segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-128-65.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:43:24 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-150-128-65.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:45:41 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:45:50 -!- seggy is now known as segmond
03:47:59 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.55] has joined #lisp
03:49:09 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.55] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
03:49:37 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.55] has joined #lisp
03:54:10 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp
03:54:32 francisl_ [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp
04:00:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp
04:00:21 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
04:01:22 -!- benny [~user@i577A106A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
04:05:07 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:05:47 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
04:07:00 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
04:10:26 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp
04:23:47 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.162] has joined #lisp
04:24:43 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:25:36 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
04:30:17 sorry, i just come back
04:31:23 hello
04:31:35 I primaryly mean scheme is simpler than CL which is easy to study for a newbie.
04:31:58 'simpler' is difficult to quantify. for example, continuations exist.
04:32:00 then you can do practical programming using CL
04:32:34 You dont need to use continuation first
04:33:05 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:33:23 segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-99-110-97-159.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
04:33:57 In fact,call//cc is not hard to understand ...
04:34:34 sw2wolf: it is, however, hard to use
04:35:02 If you're doing simple things with it, pretty much any language is simple.
04:36:31 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:36:34 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-75-185-214-178.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
04:36:42 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-150-129-63.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
04:36:59 PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-75-185-214-178.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
04:37:00 -!- segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-129-63.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
04:37:01 maybe ...
04:37:07 especially with a multi-paradigm language like lisp which will let you learn bit of syntax and start messing around writing code that will run.
04:37:18 in any case arguing about what language to use has probably never helped newbies
04:38:21 i heard of that Scheme is a teaching language and CL is a practical language ...
04:39:17 so i feel Scheme should be easy to lead a newbie into Lisp World :)
04:39:26 i've heard that scheme is how you learn recursion and lisp is academic, who cares what we've heard
04:40:39 I reckon for a learner there's a lot of common ground (they are all lisp after all) to cover before there's enough difference to make a choice.
04:41:30 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: QuickSilver_]
04:42:24 what is a continuation
04:42:34 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:46:13 QuickSilver_ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has joined #lisp
04:46:14 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp
04:47:06 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-130-51.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
04:50:19 -!- segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-99-110-97-159.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
04:51:19 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:59:57 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.174.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
05:02:38 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
05:08:08 benny [~user@i577A8A26.versanet.de] has joined #lisp
05:12:43 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:20:44 dodo_ [~dodo@199.119.201.138] has joined #lisp
05:22:04 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
05:24:43 beaky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation
05:26:35 -!- francisl_ [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
05:29:59 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
05:30:00 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.146.254] has joined #lisp
05:30:40 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving]
05:30:59 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176494801.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl]
05:31:27 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp
05:35:27 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp
05:39:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp
05:41:29 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp
05:41:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:42:25 holycow [~holycow@69.172.160.27] has joined #lisp
05:47:15 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
05:47:22 segmond__ [~segmond@108.73.164.251] has joined #lisp
05:47:43 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp
05:51:16 -!- segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-130-51.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
05:57:48 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp
05:58:36 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp
05:59:46 goddammit
06:00:41 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:00:51 this is amazing: nostrulde.org/slgj11/
06:01:49 what kind of mad hatter implementsa vm in js, creates a cl dilect and then writs something that cool?
06:02:01 i give up
06:02:15 your site looks down from here.
06:02:56 norstrulde.org/slgj11
06:02:58 typo
06:05:07 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:06:09 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp
06:08:49 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz]
06:09:42 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp
06:11:46 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:12:29 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
06:13:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-amxesfarifthlkwa] has joined #lisp
06:13:35 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-amxesfarifthlkwa] has quit [Changing host]
06:13:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp
06:18:33 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp
06:19:19 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.111] has joined #lisp
06:20:24 back
06:20:33 Bike: total madness, right?
06:20:55 it's a poincare disk.
06:21:23 i had to look that up. indeed.
06:22:09 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp
06:22:32 i bet he's like 13 and in first year compsci studies
06:22:38 at mit
06:29:23 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
06:36:10 -!- nan_ [~candodget@46.197.116.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:39:19 redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
06:40:06 -!- redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
06:42:44 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:43:42 holycow: how do you know it's a cl dialect?
06:43:50 k0001 [~k0001@host164.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
06:44:30 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp
06:44:44 i got the link from the reddit post about this page:
06:45:19 http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html
06:45:22 it's scheme, far as I remember.
06:45:49 it might be, its the last one on that list
06:46:25 the other impressive one is Slip. The video of the guy writing the demo app is sweet
06:46:30 ok
06:47:10 I wish there exist full CL in javascript
06:47:25 with slime support and everything
06:47:37 i don't.
06:48:28 you don't want it?
06:48:42 instead i think we should define a new markup language based on yaml.
06:48:56 antonv: https://github.com/swank-js/swank-js perhaps you could do something with parenscript, though...
06:49:36 then write a lispy browser and let people publish apps via a properly designed markup language and a browser designed to natively run lisp code :)
06:49:50 so lisp as the scripting language instead of js
06:50:45 at that point, you can rewrite emacs as a common lisp app and publish it as a web app
06:50:48 holycow: what you describe is unreal in my opinion - it's unlikely to happen
06:50:55 of course
06:51:04 implementing CL in javascript on the other hand is very real
06:51:36 antonv: Chrome permits code built with ECL at least
06:51:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:51:59 p_l: you mean build as native library?
06:52:02 one reason I'd like to see PNaCL get more traction
06:52:11 antonv: well, a subset of such
06:52:19 especially with PNaCL
06:52:26 subset in what sense?
06:52:39 NaCL provides you with a specialized, sandboxed environment which has its own ELF loader
06:53:02 as such, you have single binary for multiple systems, as long as those systems can run x86 code
06:53:13 http://vimeo.com/42070553 holycow: I'd wish for some hemlock improvements, like vim key bindings...
06:53:14 PNaCL extends it by replacing the x86 binary with LLVM bitstream
06:53:16 thats Slip
06:53:21 is there Nacl for ARM?
06:53:36 loke_erc: I think so, check ChromeOS/arm sources
06:53:40 wubofeng [~quassel@116.236.252.170] has joined #lisp
06:53:52 flip214: that actually seems like a plausible approach
06:54:15 loke_erc: but PNaCL is IMO more important, as it uses the same pattern as AS/400 - bytecode compiled on-demand to native, with no execution of bytecode
06:54:24 flip214: if one were to try to rewrite emacs everyone would just rag on it and insist it faild. ignoring emacs and basing it on hemlock is a cool idea i think
06:54:57 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
06:55:11 antonv: Slip actually does everything you said (i think) except as a small subset of what you propose
06:55:13 p_l, oh that's nice
06:55:17 i can see the benefit of doing what you suggest
06:55:19 I had no idea of its exiestence
06:55:28 I'm dreaming of SBCL for that
06:55:32 Or at least any CL
06:55:38 holycow: I'd love an editor that had *some* level of support for existing elisp code, but willing to sacrifice 1:1 portability for purpose of extending the model of the editor
06:56:12 loke_erc: ECL is doable for that.... SBCL might be, but might need some ugly calling convention tricks
06:56:37 p_l: is there ECL for Nacl?
06:56:41 Or Pnacl
06:57:17 loke_erc: ECL can be coerced, afaik, to build a library which will work with NaCL. Similar case should be for PNaCL
06:57:42 p_l: nice,
06:57:50 although what I really want is CL for Android
06:58:05 loke_erc: ehu had been looking a bit into it
06:58:16 possibly with direct-to-DVM generation
06:58:18 I was looking into doing a kind of precompiled CL with ABCL
06:58:36 p_l: ehu? He's doing ABCL, yes?
06:58:49 loke_erc: ABCL as it is now can boot, but the effect is horrible
06:58:57 effect?
06:59:01 similar a bit to early attempts with clojrue
06:59:03 *clojure
06:59:07 loke_erc: unusable
06:59:52 why? performance?
06:59:53 clojure, even now, is unusable on Android afaik
07:00:26 loke_erc: performance and GC OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM in case of Clojure, various incompatibilities, performance and GC for ABCL
07:00:52 holycow: SLips is a dialect of CL not a CL, see http://slip.lisperator.net/vscl
07:01:18 by full CL i mean something able to run existing code
07:01:18 from what I talked with ehu, there's an option that ABCL/android will use some extra caching
07:01:21 antonv: what were you expecting?
07:01:23 Wasn't there a prject to get ECL running on ANdroid?
07:01:42 I believe they got it to work on Iphone
07:01:42 or course it is a toy implementation
07:01:42 loke_erc: ECL works, but I don't know how well it is used
07:01:49 of course ... even :)
07:08:46 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
07:10:03 dbh [~user@182.55.2.111] has joined #lisp
07:12:12 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp
07:12:33 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg
07:14:08 holycow: i hope to connect with slime from real emacs and to say (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)
07:14:30 this level of support
07:18:06 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp
07:21:13 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3942.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
07:23:31 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp
07:23:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host]
07:23:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp
07:29:06 Anyone have a feeling about the usefulness of creating ones own package nicknames for referring to external packages?
07:29:49 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-246-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp
07:30:49 moore33: lots of them
07:31:07 Good? Bad? Neutral?
07:31:15 moore33: it has been discussed a lot, but there is no good solution.
07:31:27 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-75-185-214-178.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:31:34 moore33: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133561
07:32:02 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp
07:32:54 yeah.
07:36:03 bbl after dog walk.
07:38:50 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp
07:38:52 k0001_ [~k0001@host183.200-82-56.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
07:42:03 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host164.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:42:05 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.66.19] has quit [Quit: I be back.]
07:47:54 -!- wubofeng [~quassel@116.236.252.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:48:02 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp
07:50:39 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:51:04 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp
07:51:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
07:58:55 -!- dbh [~user@182.55.2.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
07:59:20 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3942.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:01:26 H4ns: hos is cdr12 ment to be used? I presume it's designed to be the basic building block of something that solves all pacakge problems in CL?
08:01:35 s/hos/how/
08:02:21 loke_erc: right. as a first thing, i'd implement a in-package* that allows the specification of local nicknames for on a per-file basis
08:02:31 (not actually per-file, but to the effect of that)
08:02:54 H4ns: Ah yes
08:03:02 H4ns: you're right. That can't be done otherwise
08:04:23 i'm thinking of (in-package* :my-package (:use-as :drakma :http))
08:04:40 obviously, there'd need to be slime support for that.
08:05:21 H4ns: you mean that would encourage use of full domain names as package names?
08:05:23 and my initial thought that implementing cdr12 would be easy was smashed when i looked at cll.
08:05:39 H4ns: why?
08:05:58 loke_erc: i'd not say it would encourage that, but it would make them much less of a chore.
08:06:18 loke_erc: i mean ccl, not cll. ccl's symbol name resolution is horribly convoluted
08:06:50 Oh, really?
08:06:59 It seems like a very simple fix
08:07:29 right. but in ccl, there is all sorts of obnonxious package name caching going on
08:07:30 huh, weird. portable hemlock actually builds. neat! http://gitorious.org/hemlock/pages/Home
08:07:43 tty version anyway
08:07:48 holycow: step 1: implement undo
08:08:05 heh :)
08:08:17 step 0: document whatever the heck is actually working
08:08:31 H4ns: how about SBCL?
08:08:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-59-142-111.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:08:48 loke_erc: sbcl is much saner
08:08:53 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Quit: QuickSilver_]
08:09:20 holycow: why document something that nobody will use because the essential feature of a text editor is missing?
08:09:31 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:09:46 excellent point
08:10:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-59-142-111.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
08:12:32 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp
08:14:33 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp
08:15:03 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp
08:15:10 nite
08:15:13 -!- holycow [~holycow@69.172.160.27] has left #lisp
08:15:34 H4ns: do you remember where in CCL sources this package resolution code is?
08:15:40 I would like to take a look
08:16:15 antonv: maybe in reader?
08:16:22 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3942.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
08:16:23 )
08:16:31 (or at least you can trace it down from reader)
08:16:31 maybe, what source file
08:16:36 l1-reader.lisp?
08:16:43 no idea
08:16:47 Joreji [~thomas@83-191.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp
08:16:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
08:17:54 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.105] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/]
08:19:10 antonv: i followed find-package
08:19:52 H4ns: I found some %token-package function in l1-reader.lisp, looking now how it is used
08:29:10 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp
08:29:10 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host]
08:29:10 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp
08:35:10 Adlai_ [~user@pool-108-27-202-11.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
08:35:33 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
08:36:24 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:36:24 -!- leifw [~user@pool-108-27-202-11.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:38:26 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-10-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
08:38:31 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp
08:39:58 H4ns: what if we specify cdr12:*package-prefix-resolver* as a function that accepts a string and returns a string?
08:40:30 and the use-package* form will only affect how source code forms are read, but not affect find-package, find-symbol, etc
08:41:03 so cdr12:*package-prefix-resolver* will be just a string substitution hook
08:41:08 that'd be simpler to implement, but it is better?
08:41:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:42:14 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.185.135] has joined #lisp
08:42:24 it seems to me (after superficial coder read) that it can be added to CCL in the function %token-package defined in level-1/l1-reader.lisp
08:42:43 H4ns: the only better quality is that it's simpler
08:43:06 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-105-148.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp
08:43:14 it will cover 95% of needs in daily programming
08:43:48 hm. mine as well.
08:44:07 it might also be easier to explain, as it would then affect only the reader.
08:45:07 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp
08:46:26 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
08:46:27 it's necessary to try someday - create a small library with a patch for SBCL and for CCL and exporting the cdr12 variable
08:46:41 and create the use-package* form
08:46:46 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
08:47:02 yeah. i like the idea of a top-level use-package
08:47:11 then try to use and see if it's pleasant
08:47:42 H4ns: that is quite good indeed, and the local package aliases thing has been on my mind lately
08:48:46 of course, I would call it cdr13, as cdr12 already exists ...
08:48:47 http://cdr.eurolisp.org/document/12/index.html
08:49:00 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.18] has joined #lisp
08:49:06 right. my proposal has not made it into a cdr12 yet
08:50:28 the use-package idea is good because it'd also be pretty easy to convert back from use-package to pure cl using textual substitution, should the whole thing not prove to be good enough
08:50:46 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp
08:50:51 I honestly think that the package alias thing is important, and the next step really.
08:51:23 so, I am glad that others feel the same way!
08:53:21 so, use-package will only affect the reader for symbols, and not the other package oriented stuff?
08:53:32 drewc: right.
08:54:16 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp
08:54:44 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
08:55:03 the possibilities! it will finally be possible to create packages on the fly!
08:55:11 while reading code!
08:55:16 that. is. awesome.
08:55:48 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:55:49 what about hierarchical packages and nested packages? :)
08:55:52 excellent, I like that quite a bit.
08:56:33 well, not completely, but moving there. it would still be hard to read code containing qualified references to exported symbols in undefined packages.
08:57:13 but this can be solved by having the reader supply information whether "::" or ":" has been used to qualify the symbol to the hook function
08:58:24 H4ns: i do not understand what problem do you mean, could you explain?
08:58:26 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp
08:59:02 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp
08:59:06 the reader, as it is now, can only read qualified symbol references when the referenced packages exist
08:59:23