POSTGAME NOTES: Posey to miss a few days; Giants keep making the same mistake

First, the news: Buster Posey has a fracture on the tip of that right ring finger that he hurt the other night, but he said he likely can play in a few days.

“From what I’m hearing from the trainers and doctor, it’s something that hopefully in a couple of days, once it calms down, I’ll be able to play through it,” Posey said. “I’m hopeful that it’s manageable. I think it’ll be alright.”

“It’s not displaced or anything so it’ll just correct itself.”

As for the team, well, good luck righting this ship. Ryan Vogelsong put the blame on his shoulders tonight, but there was much more to the 4-2 loss than one rough inning. The Giants ran into three outs and should have been hit with a fourth, but home plate umpire Tom Hallion blew two calls on the same play at the plate. The Giants got #parrad, or #gerrardoed or whatever they tweet down there in Phoenix. The worst part? They should have seen this coming.

It’s not like Parra is some rookie like Yasiel Puig, bursting on the scene with an arm that nobody has seen before. Parra won the Gold Glove in 2011 and came in with 48 assists in five seasons. He has five career two-assist games from the outfield. The Giants see him show off that arm every time they play the Diamondbacks, and the two teams meet for six series a year.

“There’s not a better arm in baseball,” manager Bruce Bochy said. “He’s as accurate as any I’ve seen throw the ball. He’s electric, and he showed it tonight. It’s a strong arm.”

So … why did the Giants keep running on him?
“I dunno,” Bochy said. “You have to ask them.”

We didn’t quite have the chance because of the Posey news. Bochy indicated that the one that steamed him the most was Brandon Belt trying to take second after Parra had already thrown Brandon Crawford out and pretty much thrown out Pablo Sandoval.

“Belt’s got that ball right in front of him,” Bochy said. “As he rounds first it’s right there in front of him. At that point, you’re hoping he shuts it down.”

No one play or player cost the Giants this game, despite what Vogelsong said. But you add up the mental mistakes, the missed opportunities and one rough inning, and, well, it’s easy to see why there were thousands of empty seats at AT&T Park tonight.

— Vogelsong was frustrated with his pitch selection.

“I made some bad decisions on pitches and on selection and on top of that I didn’t execute the ones I picked,” he said. “(Catcher Hector Sanchez) made some right calls and I shook him off. I didn’t execute very well, and those two are really not a good combination. It’s disappointing.

“The wheels fell off and I couldn’t get it back together. That’s all on me. This loss is all on me.”

At the very least, he appeared to have better velocity tonight, but he said that doesn’t matter in the big picture.

“I think I’ve proven the last three to four starts that velocity is not the biggest thing,” he said. “It’s nice to have some extra ticks on the fastball, yeah, but it’s about location. I’ve had that … until the fifth inning tonight.”

— The Giants have some leeway on their “sellout” number and, of course, most of these seats were sold long ago, before the summer collapse. Still, it’ll be interesting to see what happens next week when the Rockies come into town with school and football in full swing.

— It continues to be a roller coaster for Sanchez. He had trouble with a couple of balls in the dirt and then threw a runner out from one knee (his throws have definitely been better of late). He also could have had a double in the second inning (liner at Goldschmidt) and nearly had a bloop hit in the sixth (Parra, again), but ended up 0 for 3. Sanchez was already in for plenty of September time and now that Posey is hurt, that’ll only increase. There’s talent there, that’s for sure. It’s just a matter of harnessing it.

— There should be a rule: If you blatantly blew a call (twice), you can’t eject the manager who argues. Let’s hope Kirk Gibson at least had Peyton Manning on his fantasy team …

— Hunter Pence has reached base safely in 14 straight games and is hitting .329 in the second half.

— Another nice night for Heath Hembree, who upped the fastball to 94 while throwing 1 1/3 scoreless innings. It’s way early, but Hembree definitely looks like he belongs up here.

As Hembree pitched in the eighth, Heath Bell warmed up in the visiting bullpen. I don’t think we even have to look that one up — that had to be the first time two Heaths were throwing on an MLB field at the same time.

135 Comments

Jeff Arnold may just be one of the most valuable players in the Giants minor league system. Arnold is the best defensive catcher in the Giants system. He’s caught many of the best young pitchers the Giants have. I believe he has played an important part in their development.

A few stats to support this position.

Augusta – 2012 – Team Pitching Stats. South Atlantic League

2nd in league in ERA – 3.55
4th in league in WHIP – 1.36
1st in league in K’s – 1160
8th in league in BB – 476
14th in league in HR’s – 55
11th in league in hits – 1145
3rd in league in saves – 38
1st in league in shutouts – 13

Pitchers Arnold caught in Augusta:

Blackburn, Escobar, Crick, Mejia, Law, Bandilla, Hall, Marlowe

San Jose – 2013 – Team Pitching Stats – California League

1st in league in ERA – 3.66
4th in league in WHIP – 1.26
1st in league in K’s – 1282
8th in league in BB – 425
10th in league in HR’s – 103
10th in league in hits – 1165
1st in saves – 48
2nd in league in shutouts – 8

Because of his great defensive abilities he allows these young pitchers to throw any pitch in any count in any situation, which only helps in their development. I hope the Giants understand his importance and continue to advance him up the ladder along with these young pitchers.

I’m all for umpire bashing, especially Bucknor and Davidson and a bunch of others, but I’m inclined to cut Hallion some slack on that call. That was an impossible call for Hallion to make at the plate. He had to keep his eyes up at Sandoval’s shoulder level to see if a proper tag is applied (I don’t think there was a proper tag – Montero’s elbow “tagged” Sandoval) while somehow at the same time keep an eye at ground level to see if Sandoval clips home plate. Once he ruled that Sandoval was safe because he touched home plate, the second tag attempt became a moot point.

Heal up Posey. I hope you get as much time as you need, and then some.

The compounding of problems game after game after game is just alarming. I think the Giants organization are soon in for a rude awakening… It isn’t booing if Zito comes in and stinks, no. It’s much worse. Not anger, nor frustration.

It is indifference.
Good fans can handle losses, that isn’t it. But when I’ve gone to games and heard serious applause for staying out of hitting into a double play, or a productive fly out simply advancing a Giants runner from first to second, it’s building. Been building. Yeah, football season and school…

I admire Vogey for trying to wear it. But c’mon.
Those who watched the game saw what you’re reporting Alex. Clutchlessness, poor base running, poor defense, poor decision making, poor pre-pitch mental preparation/anticipation, wasted AB’s. I throw some slack to our entire pitching staff (yes, ENTIRE). It is unfathomable how much is being asked of them this season.

I hope we get to see Monell, Perez, Adrianza, Hembree, and Pill a bunch. Is Hector really going to be our #2 catcher in 2014? Should Monell just get 5 straight starts to work with every arm in our rotation once through? Please rest Scutaro more now, so he can play at least 120 games next year.

Thank you very much for the kind words, as always. I will be very happy to work on that project you asked about. I’m off work next Tuesday so hopefully I’ll have something for you by then.

I happened to have a list of relievers I’ve put together that I think we (Giants fans) should keep an eye on next season. Also, I happen to agree with Foothills that our abundance of pitching in the minors can/should be used to acquire some top notch minor league prospects.

I admire Vogey for trying to wear it. But c’mon.
Those who watched the game saw what you’re reporting Alex. Clutchlessness, poor base running, poor defense, poor decision making, poor pre-pitch mental preparation/anticipation, wasted AB’s. I throw some slack to our entire pitching staff (yes, ENTIRE). It is unfathomable how much is being asked of them this season.
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We don’t agree often but when a man’s right, he’s right. Frankly, I was glad Bochy threw Belt under the bus for that attempt to stretch a single into a double. Belt already had a display of the cannon this guy has for an arm so where was his head.

Even Kuip took a swipe at Belt’s two mental gaffe’s tonight by selecting Belt (sarcastically) as his “player of the game” except when he “took two bathroom breaks while out on the field”. It’s a brave announcer these days who calls it like it is but I suspect that since Bochy agreed with Kuip there’ll be no brouhaha over Kuip’s sarcasm. I can actually tell from Kuip’s recent postgame commentary that he’s at his wit’s end watching one crapfest after another.

However noble Vogey is for his postgame gesture of wearing the loss for the team, I’m increasingly convinced that Vogey will be next year’s Zito. Vogey fought back to the majors and served us well in a World Series year but when his pinpoint spotting is even a LITTLE off, he gets really bashed … by five hard base knocks in a row and an early hook. At 36 next year, I think he comes back but still has a 5+ ERA season like his five terrible years at Pittsburgh before he submerged back to the minors.

I’ve always had the sense that sports team owners and general managers are always balancing loyalty, the biases of the manager and coaches on the field, figuring out if this year is the start of a bummer stretch or a rebirth for all kinds of players, and other barrages of data.

However, whether you’re an upper management supporter or naysayer, I think pretty much everyone agrees on one thing: This roster will no longer approach another World Series. They don’t have much trade bait because of a thin bench and only a few must-keep position players. They’ve simply got to make big decisions which involve lowering payroll in some areas and purchasing guys with the years of 3-million attendance in other areas.

The umpire was horribly out of position and couldnt reasonably have any idea what the proper call should be.MLB umps routinely take that 180 degree angle at home …. not sure why, but they see the timing of a tag … and they dont really care, clearly.

Throws triple digits. Needs to continue to improve on excellent 2nd half. Took over the closer role from Mizenko.

Derek Law – San Jose – RHP – 6’3″ 218

4-0, 2.10 22G 11 SV 25.2 IP 20 H 7 R 6 ER 1 BB 45 K’s .208
0.82 WHIP

Law throws 88-92 with top out of 94. Has excellent breaking stuff.
Had excellent year in 2012 as Cody Hall’s set-up man. 2013 took over the closer position for San Jose did a great job. 1 walk vs. 45 K’s.
Will be part of tough bullpen at Richmond next season.

Why anyone could view sweaty, bed-wettin’, little boys as sex objects is beyond me, but those people are around. I’m sure there are no more today than there have been, but we are more alert to the threat today. There are always unmarried, childless men hanging around Little League activities. They can adopt the guise of “regular guys,” but I was always suspicious. It doesn’t hurt to be suspicious.

A marine captain came to one of our games as a volunteer umpire. His first question to me was, “Are your players wearing athletic cups?”

Without missing a beat I replied, “Of course.”

Now I had no idea if even one was wearing a cup and seriously doubted if even one was. (It’s in the LL rule book that they must wear cups.) But what was I supposed to say? Was I supposed to tell him I didn’t know and let him do his own examination? I couldn’t have cared less if they had cups. That’s just a CYA thing for LL anyway. The only time I wore a cup when I played was when I was catching.

Parra does in fact have one of the best left arm in the game right now which last year parra played left and upton was right now with upton gone i could honesty say parra has the better arm but we did give up a lil but of speed but man what a great arm. GO D-BACKS

This shuddering, heaving, vomitous season is on Chuck and Larry and their parsimonious ownership group. Heard a radio feature yesterday which said that if you’re an NFL owner you’re already rich and you’re supposed to plow the profits back into your franchise. The payoff is in equity and prestige, not in a swelling bank account. Well, the same holds in MLB. Yet our group regularly cries poverty even while selling out every game and sticking their hands in our pockets. I think we can all see how how phony were the protests about ballpark financing debt–“We built the stadium ourselves and that terrible, awful, crushing debt service means we can’t afford to raise the payroll, whine, whine, whine…” Yeah right, making yourselves look virtuous while simultaneously piling up profits. Now they’ve taken on more debt for their new development, proving how vapid, hollow, and false the repeated claims of poverty really were and are. Hey Chuck and Larry: The crap on the field is your fault. Get some big league hitters for your team. Just for starters, think about a real left fielder. Get some rotation depth. Add some bullpen arms. Compete for international free agents. Improve the farm system. Extend Pence, who wants to play here and is one of your few quality bats. Do right by the fans. Don’t insult our intelligence or take our loyalty for granted. You’re not poor. You have enough money. Give Sabean whatever he needs for payroll. Get it done.

Sorry to hear about Posey, but most all new something would eventually happen on top of dings and bein nicked up. Hope he heals quickly ad the Giants can move home away from behind the dish.

As much as some want to claim others as their best hitter, Posey is clearly the best hitter and even better when healthy and rested legs.

But more to the point are the Giants with their starting lineup about to lose yet another series. Are they about to go 4 winning series out of 14 since the all star break?

The pitching was good for a while, but as of late things appear to be digressing and while the Offense scored a few runs in 1 game lately to skew their stats, in general they are the 1 to 3 run team that is your San Fran Cisco Giants!!!
enjoy the game:)

VGF is bringing it. A symphony of thoughtful Giants discussion always starts in the desert.

When I say trade pitching prospects for other prospects, I mean to say they should use their wealth to address positional scarcity. Mac Williamson is probably the only real OF prospect in the system. Know of any third base prospects either? Finding an upper level 2nd baseman would behoove the team, preferably one with some pop in his bat or legit speed on the bases. Joe Panik may turn into a real player, but with a sub .100 ISO and not a burner on the bases, dont’ expect him to be a force on offense.

It would be nice to see the Giants address the farm in addition to addressing the MLB roster.

Filling the pitching void should be much easier than filling the void on offense. Ask yourself, why would an elite hitter go out of his way to play in SF? Beautiful ballpark? 2/3 WS champs a couple years ago? I’m not sure that’s enough to overcome the fear of statistical regression and joining a club that is coming off a disastrous season. It will take an pretty severe overpay to lure a hitter.

Who is Hunter Pence’s agent? We’re going to find out how much Hunter Pence really loves playing in SF in that exclusive window following the conclusion of the season.

As for the terrible play and terrible record, it really does take a concerted effort to rise to the top of the draft board. In spite of worst efforts, they are still a win ahead of the Twins and the 10th place pick. Sure, they’ve got 6th position all to themselves and are within reach of 4th, but it only takes a winning streak to get them out of the top 10. Should that happen, and no protected pick awarded at season’s end, it could be viewed as disastrous.

So bad play continues to be a mixed blessing. A pitching stud (Beede) from Pitching University (Vandy) could be there for the taking.

I do not view any of those players as players auditioning for a starting position. If you listened to Sabean on KNBR, lots of excuses and explanations of not doing anything and how the minor league players are not ready to step in.

If you presume Pence is resigned, then the Giants are only looking at left field for an upgrade. That is not going to help the woefull play from everyone else from the high amounts of errors and bad baserunning to bad pitching.

Genius move with the Thomas pickup. Welker sure seems to vibe with Manning. I loved that Manning threw for 7 TDS and a gazillion yards and my guy winds up with 3 points. Why I don’t love FFL.

I had a choice between Decker and Welker. Welker went to my buddy right after my pick. We’ll see how the next couple weeks go. And at least my opponent this week has neither Manning or either Thomas. And 3 points is better than 0.

and it looks like all the call-ups they had are not helping themselves to be with the team next year. free agents is more likely the GIANTS way to field the TEAM GIANTS next season. HEMBREE? looking good so far. KEISCHNICK? nothing to show for yet. these two are the ones that i would want back next season.

About the game though, that was a poster-child for the season last night. If I didn’t have a commute to sit through, I’m not sure I’d be listening with any regularity, and I find myself checking out in the 7th-8th inning to do something more interesting (but I’ve missed Hembree twice!). Keep that in mind Gaint’s brass, I’m not hearing those adds on KNBR or donating my Kars for Kids … just one person voting with their wallet (sort of).

Has Bochy checked out or is it just not possible to stay engaged at this point?

With all the question marks about the 2014 rotation, it’s great to see Vogelscheiße come through when it really counts – you gotta have that No. 2 starter and, presuming Sabean exercises Zito’s option, things are looking good. Get it done, Sabean!

Sandoval’s decision-making on that fly ball was just as bad as Belt’s and arguably worse. No outs, a run in, you’re on third and not a fast runner, and you try to score on the best RF arm in the league? The fact that the ump blew the call twice doesn’t change the facts, and I didn’t like Sandoval going after Montero like that, either, even though I can’t stand Montero.

Belt made a mistake, no doubt due to being over anxious–they were trailing and he was trying to get something going. “A bathroom break”? What was the second, that he hit into a DP? Because he’s the only Giant to hit into one or fail to come up with a big hit?

Did you ever hear Kuiper tear Sandoval a new one for one of his 16 double plays, or Posey, Pence, or Scutaro for their 13? Belt has by far the fewest of any regular and even fewer/same as part- time players.

Kuiper’s a jerk. How about we start keeping track of the many mistakes he makes during EVERY game? It’s gotten embara$$ing.

“With all the question marks about the 2014 rotation, it’s great to see Vogelssong step up and take responsibility, even though it wasn’t all on him. He will be a great No. 4 starter and, presuming Sabean brings Timmy back and gets a strong #3, things are looking good. Get it done, Sabean!”

Wow lefty trying to defend BB9 from base running gaffs that have been prevalent in his game all year. Just plane aggressiveness because he has speed right? Sometimes you he makes it and you praise him some times he does not.

So how is that 4 RBI’s in the past 19 games from Belt doing? That is even below his rate when batting 6th or 7th.

There’s no doubt that Belt made a bad decision to challenge Parra and, in general, I don’t have a problem with a coach or manager calling out a player for a mistake, but Belt continues to be the only guy Bochy is willing to do that with. Did Flannery send Sandoval? Was Roberto Kelly telling Belt to stop? Was Scutaro getting doubled off on a looper to the second baseman any smarter than what Belt did? There were plenty of bad plays/decisions last night, but Belt’s gets special mention? I find it interesting.

1: Players in front of him are on second or third and not on first
2: He comes up with 2 outs alot
3: He bats with nobody on base because wherever he hits runners are not on (3rd , 4th , 6t, 7th)
4: He is just faster than everyone else
5: He K’s or walks 1 in every 3 AB’s

For those of you wondering about what order the Giants will draft, keep in mind that the Giants’ next road trip is 10 games against Dodgers, Yankees, and Mets. There is a very good chance they will lose all of those games, and I would expect they would lose several against Dodgers and Yankees by double digits. I think the Giants will lose over 90 games which should improve their draft. However, the Giants need to improve their draft picks by getting staff that know positions other than pitcher. They need to draft position players that are good solid hitters because they certainly have difficulty getting free agents to come to SF because the park is so much of a pitchers park. I managed to fall asleep and missed most of last night’s game. It seems as though I was lucky. Bochy seems to have no influence on his players, and Sabean seems to have been on vacation since the winter meetings. Yes the players have played badly, yes there have been some injuries, but Bochy and Sabean have had bad seasons as well. If they get credit when Giants do well, they should get blame when the Giants do this badly.

I don’t really care why Belt does or does not hit into DPs. The point is that he gets skewered by Kuiper on the postgame show for doing so (saying Belt was taking a “bathroom break”) when he’s hardly ever hit into one the whole season and other players have hit into two or three times as many.

I’m not saying that was a good AB, and I’m not saying Belt didn’t make a mistake trying to go to second on Parra’s arm. Not defending him or making excuses. But I don’t like mean-spirited unfair scapegoating like what Kuiper did.

Dave Flemming was just saying on Twitter yesterday that Krukow and Kuiper deserve to win the Ford C. Frick Award and be in the Hall of Fame. I could not disagree more. They should not be mentioned in the same sentence as real professionals like Jon Miller, Vin Scully, Lon Simmons, and Russ Hodges. Seriously?

2holehitting says:
September 6th, 2013 at 8:07 am
Wow lefty trying to defend BB9 from base running gaffs that have been prevalent in his game all year.
————————
I said “He made a mistake.” How is that defending him?

Really what bothered me more is the GIDP thing that K & K did. As I demonstrated, Belt hardly ever hits into DPs (the same was true last year, too). If you want to say he makes base-running gaffes, fair enough–he does (though he’s certainly not the only one). But to mock him on the postgame show and suggest he was checked out when he hit into only his fourth DP of the season in September–that’s just stupid and mean.

I hope Kuiper eats something bad at the ballpark today and gets food poisoning and spends the whole night puking. What a jerk.

Keep up the good showing Panda, I want a quality arm so we’re not held over a barrel by #55…..

Right now, I think you still have to think of trading Panda. You know he’ll have a good season next year, but in 2015 when he’s back to 270 and not hitting his weight, you’ll smile to yourself and wonder why you thought we should keep him. THink about how thankful Cardinal fans are they ‘lost out’ on Pujols…. Panda will be worse after his contract drive

Kuiper gets a pass for being Kuiper, but anyone listening closely this year has heard the innumerable mistakes he makes during broadcasts. Wrong count, wrong players, wrong pitch thrown or pitch location, wrong score…the list is long. He is not sharp – whether due to the unwatchable ball that has been played most of the year, his focus on what junk he can next throw into his mouth or just a function of age, this has not been one of his better years. I hope he can regain his focus next year and not spiral down to Gary Park standards.

No inspiration, though at times signs of desperation. Team is clearly out of synch. Bochy is not managing to manage ~ at least not well. He gets a blow, though, for those two rings which anointed him designated genius. Sabean had no success dumpster diving for position players this season or in the off-season. Clearly, he’s wrapped tightly in swaddling clothes when it comes to budget.

Another Mijares melt-down. This time, though, Bochy did not give him sufficient rope to strangle himself. Kieschnick does not seem to be getting it together. Perez should get more starts. Dunning, Kontos, Hembree and Rosario generally looking good.

Once in a Blue Moon the team breaks out of it’s collective somnolence and shows what kinda talent it does have, like in the last game vs the Dagos. But that very rarity of good baseball hints strongly at a severious lack of inspiration coming from the manager and ultimately the owners.

Trainwreck, #14, +1, nailed it with the ownership analysis. This off-season will tell us everything about the “commitment” of the ownership group.

Lefty, #29 and #39, completely agree. And if Flemming said that he’s just brown nosing those two to make it easier to take over when they retire. Dumb & Dumber (Kruk & Kuip) have no business being mentioned anywhere near the great ones. They very little understanding of statistics, they don’t know the complimentary players on other teams well at all, Kruk is an insufferable Pollyanna (albeit it’s part of the job description to an extent, still I’d like him to tell it like it is more) and Kuip makes countless mistakes during every broadcast.

Lefty is bringing it and I couldn’t agree more… k & K are becoming a bigger embarrassment than this team is. The point she is making is the comments they made after Belt grounded into a DP in somewhere around the 6th..” Wasted at bat” , ” you just can’t do that”, and then the snarky piling on by Krukow with his BS “player of the game” joke denigrating Belt…YET, as Pablo grounding into arguably a more devastating DP in the 8th…crickets. And on the bush elbows up attack of Montero that was Cousins worthy for danger…a typical yuk-fest about the “big fella”.

I get they know who writes the checks. But, the K & K integrity is falling to new lows this season with their blind eye to their favorites shortcomings and their piling on against their less favorite players. Carrying the company water? To a fault.

2Hole: I repeat from prior posts: Reading Comprehension courses are available. Please retread what Lefty said so you glean her point rather than going on yet another Belt rant.

VGF: Thanx again for keeping us up to date on the pipeline. Interesting skew, isn’t it? Augusta and San Jose have pitching staffs which are likely the envy of most ML organizations, while Mac Williamson is probably the only significant outfield prospect in the Giants system. Catching, with Susac and Arnold and shortstop with guys like Matt Duffy may be in decent shape or at least not at all bad. In general, though, developing position players is generally a problem for this outfit.

Suggests some creating swapping potential for Sabean this off-season. Twins are one organization among several who have the opposite problem from Sf. They have difficulty scouting and developing highly rated pitching prospects. Some organization has got to have already a well-balanced outfield situation and perhaps a good prospect or two ~ ditto, third-base. Giants can deal from strength here. Pick out the best two or three starter prospects and the premiere three or so top relievers and hang onto this handful. That leaves well over a half-dozen quality pitchers who would be trade possibilities.

Crystallizing the concept: A high-performance starting prospect plus a likely to succeed reliever plus a fill-in from the likes of Pill, Kieschnick or even Blanco should bring home either a proven left-fielder with some RISP prowess or a very highly rated AAA prospect from a team which already has their OF well covered.

Even if Baer and company remain tight-fisted and greedy for amassing more money than human beings actually need, there still is sufficient pitching in the pipeline to bring in a quality run-producer to play left-field. Sabean needs to marry his phone.

I don’t fault Belt at all for pushing the envelope to take second. How many times have his teammates left him and others stranded on base waiting for a hit. When you don’t hit as a team with RISP, and lead the league in stranded runners, what’s he supposed to do, make believe he’s playing for the Cardinals. Context is everything, a mistake of this sort is really irrelevant with the 2013 Giants.

As to K&K, balance isn’t there game, they’re a cheering section, not commentators.

Dubs, where did I say that K & K hate Belt? I said I thought the way they trashed him during the broadcast on the postgame wrap was unfair and mean-spirited. I stand by that.

I agree with Matthew that they have their favorites about whom they never say a negative word and others who get about 90% negativity. Lincecum is a prime example. It is just stunning how consistently Krukow criticizes him throughout every start–even carping on his hitting, like anyone cares about that. Even during the no-hitter call, Krukow didn’t start talking positively about Lincecum until around the eighth inning.

Meanwhile, Cain has had probably his worst season, and do you ever hear a peep from our broadcasters about that? I would say if you had to point fingers at players for this train wreck of a season, first in line are the “ace” of the staff (who we all know is no longer Cain, despite the contract) and the World Series MVP–whom K & K are slobbering all over now that he FINALLY lost a few pounds after it was way too late to save the season.

Timmy, on the other hand, has improved from last season, thrown some great games, AND a no-hitter–one of the few true highlights of this miserable season. And Belt’s development as a hitter is one of the few bright spots to take away from the lost year of 2013. Yet when you listen to our announcers, you would think the two of them are the biggest problems on the team.

Oh, one more thing. Mijares comes in AGAIN and is bad AGAIN (giving up a hit to the only batter he faced)–and Krukow is finally saying “Mijares has had a rough time lately” (like for six weeks straight) and “it’s so unlike him” (except that it’s NOT).

The Giants currently have FOUR lefties in the bullpen (Lopez, Mijares, Zito, and Kickham) with Affeldt about to return, too. Why does Mijares have to appear in every d**n game?

When/Where did it all start?
Critiquing players that play a team game use to be set aside for hallowed ground.
I don’t have answer cept imo Kruke and Kuip are much better split up all solo.
Together they’ve got a case of yips and holierThan Thou.

Baserunning Blunders are lack of momentary focus for split seconds.
“Should I, or shouldn’t I”
Coaches send you home from second/firstbase.
Third to home.
Home to second
First to third are based on what the player sees with his own athleticism.

-Ruben Rivera
-Nate
-BB9
-Geno Velez
-Blanco

All made Gaffes = turn the page.

But critiquing Belts hitting or the man in the moon again just let’s people know who has ever done or who’s been around it at any level to realize ….

Bochy mentioned Belt, Yup. But he doesn’t carry it forward like the blogs do. He has the right. He doesn’t talk S about vets. I played for coaches who did that. One learns to move on and fix what he didn’t like that you did.

To all the reverse pollyanna’s and nego Nancys = I’ll be there tonite.

“The Stud Muffin: Kyle Crick, RHP, Giants: Crick’s 2013 season was impressive on so many levels. Just 20, he struck out 95 batters in 68.2 innings and posted an ERA of just 1.57 — in the California League. He also allowed just one home run despite his fly-ball ways. On the down side, the fire-baller walked 36 batters and clearly needs to improve his control. Crick has the ceiling of a No. 1 or 2 starter if he realizes his full potential. The big league staff isn’t nearly as formidable as it once was so the organization is no doubt eager to see this Texan show his injury woes are behind him.

The Sleeping Beauty: Adalberto Mejia, LHP, Giants: Mejia might be on the cusp of shedding the sleeper label and bursting into true top prospect category. He’s the most recent example of the Giants’ ability to continually churn out pitching prospects. The 20-year-old southpaw navigated the potent California League with aplomb — including equally impressive numbers at home and on the road. The big concern with the Dominican native, though, is that he has yet to complete a full season as a starter and made just 17 starts — failing to top the 100-inning mark — in 2013.

The left-handed Mejia has some giddy-up on his heater and can work in the low 90s. His slider is impressive at times and his changeup is definitely more than a show-me pitch. He has the ceiling of a No. 3 starter, if he can build up his stamina. The organization has some very impressive arms in the minors with Crick, Mejia, Edwin Escobar, Clayton Blackburn, Martin Agosta, Chris Stratton, Joan Gregorio, and more…”

CU: Have fun tonight.
———————
Dubs is going to call me out for “paranoia” and suggest I have a mental disorder again, and I don’t really think that Bochy “hates” Belt. But it does seem like Belt’s mistakes, when they happen, get mentioned by Bochy in post-game pressers more than they do for other players.

Besides last night’s game (when Belt was the third of THREE runners thrown out by Parra), there was that game last week when Belt cut off a throw to the plate and tagged the runner out off first to end an inning–but the runner scored. There were plenty of good arguments that Belt did exactly the right thing, and MLB.com even listed it as a highlight and called it “a heads-up play.” And Buster didn’t criticize it, either, saying the play could have gone either way. But Bochy felt the need to question it to the media.

For the record: I don’t agree with management EVER calling out players to the media. Not Sandoval, not Huff, not Belt, not anyone. I think if there’s a problem you deal with it privately.

This has been a very poor year for Bochy on just about every level imaginable, and I for one am disappointed in him as a professional and as a person. I’d become a huge admirer especially after last season, but not anymore.

I like a lot of Kuip’s commentary usually and Krukows Midwest Pollyana is sometimes insightful. NO problems with either of them.

Ford C Fricke Award? uh… no

This season I have noticed a lot more error by Kuip than usual, that might be a lack of interest given the quality of the product.

One thing I definitely noticed the other day listening in the car on the way home. Kuip NEEDS Krukow or at least someone to call color. His broadcasts doing radio solo are flat and lack description. He’s gotten used to always having a side kick.

I never ever never, noticed that with Miller or Scully. They are both getting on in years, and make more mistakes than they used to, but they fill the air waves and entertain throughout. I think if you look down that list of Fricke Award winners (with the horrible exception of McCarver) you could make that claim.

Lefty…well, you’re all in on this disaster of a season when you get to calling Kuiper a jerk. What next…Murph’s senile? It’s been a long, difficult season for everyone – even the Giants! Maybe we’re all just a bit frazzled and hyper sensitive about…seemingly everything.

Is the off season going to be about a fresh start or a continuation of frayed nerves until they show evidence of better results in ’14? If that’s the case, then it’s going to be a snippy off season in here.

walt kovacs says: September 6th, 2013 at 10:27 am 64..it is not unfair to trash belt…he has been given more chances than any other young player during the tenure of bochy/sabey sabes and still…he plays like a doofus

Kovac: IMO trashing someone speaks more for us here than the players skill set. We should be able to talk civilly or used metaphors and funny stories to describe what happened.

IMO as soon as BB9 saw the ball go over “the RFder’s” head and towards the wall he made a BAD a$$umption – BUT that’s ALL it was a BAD choice. Those who are adding them ALL up are amazing. The Club doesn’t carry “them” forward. It’s the big leagues. Player X is talked to by Flannery-Wotus or Kelly and then the move on as in forward.

I’ve seen Crawford, Nate and Scutaro while leading off second TRY to take third with a ground ball into the “6” hole and the then athletic opposing Shortstop back handed the ball and threw to third for the out.

Bad Players = No. Knucklehead (momentary) decision = Yes.

Barry Bonds and Jose Uribe “bit on” the no outlawed Right-handed Pitchers ‘fake to third – throw to first’ MORE than any two players in baseball history. Bad Players – Nope. Lack of focus, arrogant – yep.

I think it would be safe to conclude that the entire Giants team entered this year, metaphorically and otherwise, fat, tired, slow, and only marginally motivated. Sometimes, it’s just not in the cards to win. I’m not actually sure that if 2012 hadn’t had Pence and Pagan as emotional ingredients, they would have won that year. Bochy is a tactician more than a motivator, so if the team doesn’t play like grown ups and professionals, there is not much to do about it. The ‘veterans’ people are fond of criticizing were missing this year, particularly in the bullpen, to a significant degree, so the leadership lagged. Part of my take on this years rather dubious outcomes.

I watch the A’s, I don’t talk about them. As you well know, every metric and statistic is context and situation dependent. They are all, for the most part, useful and constructive when used wisely in the correct context. But then, recognizing that context and appropriate application is the rub isn’t it. It’s what separates a ‘quantitative baseball fan’ from an impostor with troll like tendencies.

Kuiper may be 🙂 getting pay back juju karma for hall of fame social life legendary stories. Done playing by 29-30 IMO his grasp of baseball experiences are fueled by ? Krukow and watching other dugout or clubhouse shenanigans as not all his career was as a starter. Married at 35, kids followed … and DA-Wayne has never been able to really give his kids an answer when they asked him (by his own admission) “Hey Pops why’d we never get to see ya play” ?

When he and Morgan started/started on Giants Vision he was much more in tune with impressing his big mentor Hank Greenwald. At that time “Smoothie” (smooth with the ladies) was just starting out minus his insane requirement to munch cashews all game and they didn’t have all the spotters they have now. Actually Duane’s brothers have some upside in the same business that Duane will never possess.

At times SOLO on the radio Duane is excellent BUT Anti-Lasorda is correct – other times he’s NOT. I watched the 6 HR highlights via MLB and on 3-4 of them Duane was late with the call on TV. On radio it is OK to be late, but I will say Miller has perfected the ‘late’ play by play via radio and it can be maddening when the listener hears the loud crowd in the background.

😡 and then …. there’s … Hawk Harrelson ha-ha or Rick Monday, or whoever called nationally in San Diego the last fly ball hit to Hacman in 1987?

Dubs: You’re right–we’re all frazzled and crabby. Probably Kuiper and Krukow, too. It’s a long year, and they’re not spring chickens anymore.

As for Murph, though–he doesn’t sound like he’s lost a step to me. Giving Hembree Wilson’s #38 was brilliant on about three different levels, IMO.

Let’s talk about Hembree. I’m surprised to hear he hasn’t been bringing the fastball in the mid/upper 90s (any explanations from the coach types?), but he’s sure looked in charge to me in both of his appearances. Did you see him when he walked the one guy–the first/only baserunner he’s allowed so far? He looked FURIOUS. So mad he could spit. I liked that.

you’d be hard pressed to find any evidence Righetti believes in ‘heat’ as a central part of his pitching ideology. I think control, corner command, and movement on the fastball are his touchstones. Having said that, I do see him walking Hembree through his approach to include changing speeds. Hembree had one pitch I saw at 94-95, but moved up and down the ladder speed wise, as long as he had corner command. Compared to what I saw on TV, Hembree has made remarkable progress in terms of control.

Lefty…so my interest is if Hembree can be a closer who has the stamina and arm strength to bring it in Aug and Sept of a pennant race when he’s already thrown 50+ innings. And pitching in back to backs in all those one run, high stress games that teams without a big offense (like, for example, the Giants) would demand from their closer. In other words, no breathers.

Sergio has been stellar but not really tested that way this year. He’s had breathers due to the kind of season the Giants have had. So the jury, in my opinion, is still out on his being able to handle that kind of work load.

Problem is: how can you put Sergio back in the 8th inning now (where I still think he’s best suited)? I think there’s the political element that says you cant. So…I think unless the Giants go all in on Hembree and trade Sergio -and I dont see how they can at this unproven stage of his career -that realistically Hembree looks to be the shorter term heir apparent to Sergio’s old 8th inning role. Then we’ll see if he has what it takes to move up to closer (cheaper, younger, stronger(?) than Sergio. IMO.

I think this team will be fine next year. After winning last year, it is hard for the players to have the same intensity this year especially after seeing the chances for a repeat fade away. Next year I think they will again be ready to compete.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Timmy and Pence and what the management does with the extra $25 million they will have to spend this year as a result of the new national TV contract.

While Pagan helps offensively, he hurts the team defensively. He bungled the Huntley double hit over his head in SD and he looked like a rookie during the 5th inning last night. If Perez is out there, maybe Goldie’s ball gets caught. Crawford should have had the hard hit ball that started the 4 run 5th. That would have been the 3rd out. Maybe the pitchers pitching so ssssllllloooowwwwllllllyyyy has put the fielders to sleep. Speed it up guys. We’re all falling asleep.

Kruk and Kuip are making this season so much worse. It could be they are tired of the poor play and losses as we all are or maybe they just need to take some time off and let us listen to someone else.

Dubs—> in your question to Lefty, I think Romo could pull it off. They could still be a hybrid in 2014 – Romo – Hembree and Affeldt or they eventually could elevate Hembree to THE spot.

We all know at the all star game that Sergio said:

“To be honest, I still feel I weaseled my way to the big leagues,” he said. “I feel very fortunate, very spoiled for everything I’ve been a part of in the big leagues. I mean, the no-hitters, two World Series, two parades, two rings with my name on them … I’m spoiled and privileged and blessed. I’m proud of the ride.“My teammates congratulated me and they said that I was deserving. To hear they feel that way, that’s the most gratifying thing about it.”

And do I actually feel he means that? I do. In fact I think that fans or bloggers who sometimes say: “What else are ‘they’ supposed to say” are obviously used to possibly being guilty of that themselves. Before, during and after the grind of 162, I actually think that players and coaches say exactly what’s on their mind. In the trenches of playing/being with each other so many hours of the day, I really don’t think they have the energy to be politically correct all the time. Some yes.

Maybe Hembree has the mildest form of tired arm. Just enough tissue fatigue that he has lost just a hair of elasticity. Maybe his mechanics are a hair off, the extension just short.

Or maybe he’s throttled back on purpose because he’s a mature man that wants to pitch, not throw.

Who knows?

I do think Vogelsong is a concern. He’s been throwing long toss a while now and he’s still sitting 87-89. His heater may never come back. How would the upper 80’s trio of Lincecum, Vogelsong and Arroyo look at the back of the rotation next year.

Re: Hembree
I have a feeling that “head” control is being preached, “staying within himself” and working up to his max, not showing everything, are all factors. Not a bad approach from heerre. I like this kid and being introduced gradually is just fine.

If only there were some sort of nutritional supplement that one could take that would make it easier to bounce back from fatigue, to help one heal faster, and to keep one’s stamina from fading as the season gets long …

I watch the A’s, I don’t talk about them. As you well know, every metric and statistic is context and situation dependent. They are all, for the most part, useful and constructive when used wisely in the correct context. But then, recognizing that context and appropriate application is the rub isn’t it. It’s what separates a ‘quantitative baseball fan’ from an impostor with troll like tendencies.

===

Very smart post CC. I’ve been thinking about the context dependent nature of all these statistics, and not just HRs and RBI’s.

There’s a context for the park he plays his home games in and the pitchers he faces, runners being on base and who’s behind him, but I also think there is context for game situation and team situation.

How would Belt do batting third on a pennant race team, every game a tight one?

I was having similar thoughts about Mike Trout. He’s been putting up monster #’s on a disappointing team.

At a certain point, we’re talking about clutch hitting. But then we’re not. We’re also talking about pitchers challenging hitters over the plate versus pitchers throwing their best stuff.

What do you think? I don’t have a formula for this. Just random thoughts.

Foot…the Vogey velocity issue is real. He should have been back to his pre injury velocity right away. As a result of his inactivity this season, I can see his having stamina issues upon his return. He needed to and has built up his arm strength. But he should NOT have lost velocity. His arm was well rested and that should have translated to a return to max velocity virtually right away. It’s a curious situation.

I agree with a lot of your comments above. As I said earlier, given the context presented by the Giants poor play with RISP, I can see why Belt stretched it out on the double. He’s seen this teams play in close games in late innings. Context.

why not, there will be no room at 3B soon with Posey’s move. I’d predict it will be a short experiment. I’m not being critical of Sandoval, as much as beginning to realize he’s about to be an odd man out. Heck, maybe he moves back to catching.

At 5’11 @ 200lbs he can definitely THROW. His short arm circle + quick release technique proves that you don’t need size to have a cannon.

I disagree on the mention of Crawford on Defense – “he should have had a ball hit to his right” and I disagree on Montero’s double. Pagan went aggressively because he knew he had Pence backing up. Pagan will do enough things in LF or CF to get people mumbling here and other places but an Beltran in ATT wouldn’t move to LF from RF. Pagan’s not moving to LF from CF. His hitting would probably suffer due to him dwelling on sliding over to LF. When he and Beltran were Met teammates I saw Pagan play all three positions.

September 6th, 2013 at 12:29 pm Foot…the Vogey velocity issue is real. He should have been back to his pre injury velocity right away. As a result of his inactivity this season, I can see his having stamina issues upon his return. He needed to and has built up his arm strength. But he should NOT have lost velocity. His arm was well rested and that should have translated to a return to max velocity virtually right away. It’s a curious situation.

*** I’d dispute that notion and most I think would. You dont regain your velocity immediately. It kind of returns when it wants to ***

I also dreamed I was QBing the 49ers on a first and goal in Denver. There was a lot of confusion in calling the play, which was complicated by the fact that, for some reason, there was a condiment bar at the 3 yard line.

For the Giants, today is the first day to be possibly eliminated as 2013 National League West champions.

With a magic number of 2, if the Dodgers win and the Giants lose, the Giants are mathematically eliminated from winning the National League West.

This would occur today September 6th after game number 141 (with a record of 62-79), where as last year the Giants clinched the National League West on September 22nd after game number 152 (with a record of 89-63).

Say Hey says: September 5th, 2012 at 8:11 am
I’d swear half this board secretly roots for losses so they can second-guess Bochy and feel all knowledgeable. I didn’t like pinch-hitting for Crawford, but in general his moves worked, his bullpen is still not trashed after too many days of making up for bad starting pitching, and the clubhouse is full of guys pulling for each other. That’s not coincidence.

ClutchUp says:
September 6th, 2013 *** I’d dispute that notion and most I think would. You dont regain your velocity immediately. It kind of returns when it wants to ***

——————————————————-

I can speak from personal experience on this and it cost me a season blowing out my arm early. But my point is your arm is strong from the layoff. Not stamina or pitch count strong – but velocity strong.

If I had an entire winter off and then stepped on the mound for the first time and after adequate warm up, tried to throw as hard as I could, I could throw with as much or more velocity than during the season after I buillt my arm up. Not suggesting this of course. But I am suggesting that a pitcher can throw hard immediately and in Vogey’s case, giving your opinion the benefit of the doubt, he’s had plenty of time by now to have regained his velocity. Velocity is not “there when it wants to.”

I didn’t watch any of the game last night, but was listening on the radio when the wheels came off for Vogey.

He seemed to lose command all at once. Given it was the 5th inning, was this stamina/fatigue-related?

His two really good years with the Giants, he seemed to always make the perfect corner pitch he needed in key situations, which I attributed to both his mental toughness and his command in stress situations.

He seems to have lost that for much/most of this year – he seldom seems capable of stopping the freight train once it gets rolling.

Is the 2013-model – older, less-in-command – Vogey what we’ll also see next year, sort of a RH version of Zito, with almost no margin for error, and unable to shut down big innings?

Or, as he’s showed at times since coming off the DL, is it a matter of more stamina and physical strength to come closer to the 2011-2012 version of Vogey in 2014?

I’d say stamina is an age related factor. If I recall the data, somewhere between 35-40 a males strength hits a maximum, potentially. However, recovery times begin to really lengthen around 29-32, depending on the individual. Gaudin’s got the same issue, IMO. He can’t break the 80 pitch barrier, and sustain his performance. Cain’s not far behind. If the Giants re-establish their level of play next year (which I doubt), they’ll need at least 2 closers and a set of bullpen arms they don’t currently have. Every game will be close with the need to hold a lead through 4-5 innings. It’ll be, to coin a phrase, 2010 on steroids.

It should be interesting at the Lineup card exchange tonight to see if
Tom Hallion says anything to Gibby about ejecting him etc since replays showed Montero’s glove and the baseball touched Sandoval before Sandoval’s hand contacted home plate, if it did at all.

GSDubs says: September 6th, 2013 at 2:36 pm ClutchUp says:
September 6th, 2013 *** I’d dispute that notion and most I think would. You dont regain your velocity immediately. It kind of returns when it wants toI can speak from personal experience on this and it cost me a season blowing out my arm early. But my point is your arm is strong from the layoff. Not stamina or pitch count strong – but velocity strong.

*Dubs, this is interesting. How about this. Two summers ago a dad startled me and said, “Mike isn’t gonna play summer ball this year because his arm needs to rest” I said, “I think the best way to recover from his HS year where he pitched a lot is too go on a PROGRAM that includes bands, long toss and bull pens.” Dad: “No No we’re gonna shut Mike down (caveat) except for some invite only tournaments” Later in the summer ‘Mike’ tried to crank it up for a weekend tourney start with proper pregame warmups for his body and the appropriate stretching etc. ‘Mike’ started the game and his mph’s were much higher for about 9 batters but then he could hardly start the 4th inning.

So what I am ONLY trying to get at is since they’ve deemed this time as Only Spring Training-ish for Vogey, I am of the opinion that he’ll have increased velocity by the time the season begins in 14.

CU…EXACTLY! The velocity is there but not for long. I did it to myself as a college freshman trying to impress the first day of throwing live BP and I my arm was live, as in LIVE. Of course, it was dead the next day and I had to nurse it the rest of the season. They never knew it and I never let on but it almost killed me

2holehitting likes to use “facts” to support his “opinions”:
Complaining about Belts lack of RBI’s:
Post 31 – So how is that 4 RBI’s in the past 19 games from Belt doing? That is even below his rate when batting 6th or 7th.
Rationalizing on how Belt has the lowest GIDP:
Post 35 – 3: He bats with nobody on base because wherever he hits runners are not on (3rd, 4th, 6t, 7th)

I thought the takeout at the plate was dirty by Pablo! Montero was out in front of the plate and Pablo had plenty of room to slide at the plate! If that was Buster being hunted down like that by Prince Fielder I can only imagine the hue and cry on here! You can’t have it both ways. Catchers need to be protected when they are NOT blocking the plate!!