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Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by ninjabot

He's probably thinking along the same way I was when I mentioned how Genjutsu SHOULD be the weakness of Sage Mode. Sage Mode requires PERFECT chakra control. A mixture of natural energy, spiritual energy, and physical energy. Then it all becomes Sage Chakra. And it doesn't simply stay that way. The ninja has to maintain focus (proven when Naruto instantly lost Sage Mode when Iruka called him his brother). Now what else do we know of that can alter a ninja's mindstate ASWELL as their chakra?

Genjutsu. The ninja can't keep Sage Mode active if the chakra they used to mix with natural energy is disrupted. Can't mix your unstable chakra with natural energy? Can't make Sage Mode. This is how it SHOULD work. But ofcourse Kishimoto won't ever address this, just like he won't address the fact that Madara could've simply "turned off" Naruto's Kyuubi chakra at any moment. Canonly.

I think that's far different than saying a person in sage mode would draw in the chakra of someone trying to manipulate them through genjutsu, and that would in turn make it twice as effective somehow for the person in sage mode. Although I somewhat agree with your stance, if we're being theoretical here, sage mode should provide a somewhat automatic defense against genjutsu. The reason I say this is because Sage chakra is a mixture of spiritual, physical, and natural energy, making the users chakra stronger than one who is not in Sage mode. One whose chakra only consists of spiritual and physical energy, in my opinion should not be able to manipulate the chakra of someone that has natural energy added. This is of course only my opinion, and Kishimoto denied this with Kabuto's fight.

I wonder though, your scenario only really works for a single person maintaining sage chakra. what of those who have help?

Obito didn't show or shouldn't have shown regret, as if he killed Rin.

You don't think that he felt regret for everything he'd done for Kakashi? Saving his life, and giving him his eyeball? I know I would hate myself to some degree for that. That's just my take on it though.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

The whole apathy thing only happened after he saw Kakashi kill rin and he went insane though. We were talking in the time frame of him and Kakashi awakening the Mangekyo.

Ah, my error then. On that subject though, the only way Obito could have knowingly been responsible for what happen to Rin is because he entrusted her to Kakashi. Don't believe he was aware that Kakashi required the Sharingan for Chidori, since he had seen Kakashi use it before without it.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Not sure if he felt regret at that time either. He might have felt confused, if anything, considering to him Kakashi acted out of character... unless Kakashi did hint he'd kill his own teammates if the situation should arise.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Ah, my error then. On that subject though, the only way Obito could have knowingly been responsible for what happen to Rin is because he entrusted her to Kakashi. Don't believe he was aware that Kakashi required the Sharingan for Chidori, since he had seen Kakashi use it before without it.

Yes, I know that. That however, doesn't change the fact that he would regret the things he did for Kakashi all in that one moment.

Originally Posted by M3J

Not sure if he felt regret at that time either. He might have felt confused, if anything, considering to him Kakashi acted out of character... unless Kakashi did hint he'd kill his own teammates if the situation should arise.

How could he not feel regret when he chose to go completely apathetic in regard to Kakashi afterward? People give Obito shit saying that he didn't care about Kakashi, that he only cared about Rin. Well, if we take everything in, everything he did for him, and the way he was, we know that he cared about Kakashi. that however, changed when he saw him plunge his arm through Rin's chest. He lost his mind, and saw a reset button through Madara's plan.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

It doesn't mean he'd have felt regret, at least in that moment. Would you feel regret right at the moment you see your best friend, whom you saved, stab his teammate, your crush, and killed her? Or would you feel shocked, betrayed, and confused? If anything, the Mangekyo must have been connected, and Kakashi unlocking his Mangekyo might have unlocked Tobi's as well.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by M3J

It doesn't mean he'd have felt regret, at least in that moment. Would you feel regret right at the moment you see your best friend, whom you saved, stab his teammate, your crush, and killed her? Or would you feel shocked, betrayed, and confused? If anything, the Mangekyo must have been connected, and Kakashi unlocking his Mangekyo might have unlocked Tobi's as well.

I'd say it's a combination of all of that. he did spend a good four seconds trying to comprehend everything that was going on I'd say in thatmoment he felt regret as well. like I've already said before, if we are going to give credit to just one of the two parties for unlocking the Mangekyo, Obito is the one who should receive it. It's Obito's eye which he still had a connection to.

However, like I've also already said, the best case scenario, for Kakashi mostly, would be that they both unlocked the Mangekyo individually but at the same time.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Not sure about that. Obito clearly wasn't in the clear of mind at that moment and I really doubt something like saying hi to Kakashi would qualify for regret.

Completely writing off the guys existence like he did after showing that he did care for Kakashi, would there not be any feelings of regret in regard to his previous actions for Kakashi? Why else go completely apathetic where Kakashi is concerned after showing that he had faith in him and cared for him?

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

I'd say it's a combination of all of that. he did spend a good four seconds trying to comprehend everything that was going on I'd say in thatmoment he felt regret as well. like I've already said before, if we are going to give credit to just one of the two parties for unlocking the Mangekyo, Obito is the one who should receive it. It's Obito's eye which he still had a connection to.

However, like I've also already said, the best case scenario, for Kakashi mostly, would be that they both unlocked the Mangekyo individually but at the same time.

But it's Kakashi who'd have felt all the emotions required for unlocking Mangekyo. He knew what he was doing, and he was even crying about it. I don't think regret at saving someone is enough to unlock Mangekyo as that doesn't seem traumatic enough, unless it's also regret at having a hand at Rin's death.

Plus, he never tried to find out why Kakashi killed Rin. Considering how he was able to see through Kakashi's Sharingan for a second, it makes sense to believe Kakashi's activation of Mangekyo activated Tobi's.

Though, I'd rather chalk it up to Kishi's nonsensical writing to make Tobi Obito while introducing possibility of him turning good. Can't kill Kakashi as that'd be a major retcon, and killing Rin would be complete 180. No one else was established to be close to Tobi/Obito, so it was Kakashi needing to kill Rin that unlocked Mangekyo.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by M3J

But it's Kakashi who'd have felt all the emotions required for unlocking Mangekyo. He knew what he was doing, and he was even crying about it. I don't think regret at saving someone is enough to unlock Mangekyo as that doesn't seem traumatic enough, unless it's also regret at having a hand at Rin's death.

Plus, he never tried to find out why Kakashi killed Rin. Considering how he was able to see through Kakashi's Sharingan for a second, it makes sense to believe Kakashi's activation of Mangekyo activated Tobi's.

Yes, and that would support the idea that he unlocked it for himself. However, if I really wanted to be a douche I could say that Kakashi, being the only non-Uchiha to "unlock" the Mangekyo did so while the Uchiha whom the eye belonged to was around and unlocked his. Which, brings into question the legitimacy of the feat itself. however, I'm not one of those people.

It's not just regret for saving him. It's regret for saving him, sacrificing himself, giving him his eyeball, and entrusting Rin's safety to him. Also, regret isn't the only factor here. We've already spent multiple posts describing the other factors that contributed to the awakening the Mangekyo. It's not like all of them have to be included in order for some unspoken criteria for the "appropriate" amount of trauma to be met to unlock the Mangekyo. What does it matter if he never asked Kakashi why? I've said this multiple times, the guy went insane, and saw a reset button in the form of Madara's plan. Obito having a connection to his eye goes one way, not two. If Kakashi was to be given credit then Obito would have unlocked it in the trees. However, it's made clear to everyone what did it for him.

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Though, I'd rather chalk it up to Kishi's nonsensical writing to make Tobi Obito while introducing possibility of him turning good. Can't kill Kakashi as that'd be a major retcon, and killing Rin would be complete 180. No one else was established to be close to Tobi/Obito, so it was Kakashi needing to kill Rin that unlocked Mangekyo.

Of course you would, because you don't agree with the fact that obito is Tobi. Trust me, I don't either. With this Kishimoto has left a bit of a bad connotation with the Uchiha. And unless one bothers to pay attention, that's all they're going to see.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Doesn't mean I wouldn't have accepted it, but the backstory just had horrible writing that I hated the whole Tobito thing even more. Few things in the story I didn't ilke, but I accepted it since it made sense.

It does matter because if Tobi learns why Kakashi killed Rin, he just may turn good.

Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.12

Originally Posted by KiSwordsman

Completely writing off the guys existence like he did after showing that he did care for Kakashi, would there not be any feelings of regret in regard to his previous actions for Kakashi? Why else go completely apathetic where Kakashi is concerned after showing that he had faith in him and cared for him?

But that's the thing, apathy towards Kakashi wouldn't mean regret. Nagato had apathy towards Jiraiya, but there was no sign of him regretting their time together.