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Wow, has this IS/IP/AIKI bickering been going on that long ? - looks like nothing has really changed much in all that time; which is a good thing for us older folks with the onset of Alzheimers - keeps things fresh in our minds

Greg

Oh yeah.

Google Mike Sigman or Dan Harden and you will find other martial art forums they have posted with before Aikiweb.

It can be quite entertaining and shows the neccisity of the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum.

If Jun wants this place to be about aikido in general, I think it is time to rename it to, for instance, Aikidoweb.

Quickly, as I'm needing to work on some projects this afternoon...

Simply, I named this website "AikiWeb" to contrast it with the term "aikido" so that this site would engage people in a more "web" like manner with many different strands crossing than a single, linear "path" (such as what we each practice in the dojo). I am in no position here to get into a semantic discussion about the term "aiki" (a term which precedes Morihei Ueshiba's art of aikido by many centuries in arts such as Kashima Shinryu). But, suffice it to say that the main, underlying, topic of this website is the martial art of aikido as founded by Morihei Ueshiba.

At the moment, I do not have any plans on creating a new subforum. With that said, though, I am willing to entertain such an idea if I hear enough discussion around that topic. But, please understand that even if another subforum were to be created, the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum will still continue to exist and all discussions outside the purview of the topic of aikido will be asked to take place there (as I have delineated, I hope, in my posts above in this very thread).

Simply, I named this website "AikiWeb" to contrast it with the term "aikido" so that this site would engage people in a more "web" like manner with many different strands crossing than a single, linear "path" (such as what we each practice in the dojo). I am in no position here to get into a semantic discussion about the term "aiki" (a term which precedes Morihei Ueshiba's art of aikido by many centuries in arts such as Kashima Shinryu). But, suffice it to say that the main, underlying, topic of this website is the martial art of aikido as founded by Morihei Ueshiba.

At the moment, I do not have any plans on creating a new subforum. With that said, though, I am willing to entertain such an idea if I hear enough discussion around that topic. But, please understand that even if another subforum were to be created, the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum will still continue to exist and all discussions outside the purview of the topic of aikido will be asked to take place there (as I have delineated, I hope, in my posts above in this very thread).

I hope that clarifies some things...

Best,

-- Jun

Hi Jun,

I understand you on the point about discussing semantics; that will not clear anything up but just make things more vague. I also understand why you named the site aikiweb at the time you did it. However, the topic of Aiki has grown and has taken on a life of its own. I also understand the term aiki pre-dates aikido and is very prominent in a lot of Japanese martial systems.

However, with that said, IMO, I think a sub forum for Internal Skills would make a logical place for all discussion of that nature where the posters would not have to worry about whether what they are saying has an obvious link to Aikido, Daito Ryu, or whatever system. In my personal opinion, internal skills are a core requirement for ALL martial art systems regardless of whether they are Japanese, Chinese, Korean, or from elsewhre.

In my personal opinion, internal skills are a core requirement for ALL martial art systems regardless of whether they are Japanese, Chinese, Korean, or from elsewhre.

Yes, exactly.

I think it would be useful to be able to have the discussion around the different reasons for how each system/tradition/practice incorporates IP/IS/Whatever into their system. I understand whe some folks aren't discussing details for various reasons, but even elevating the discussion to the layer of "here's where it fits into the foundational work" of the system I practice.

And some folks still won't participate - which is fine. But then there should be enough at least having the discussion to get people thinking about some of the why's and how-to's. That way if people are interested, great, there's a newbie-to-amateur-friendly place for us to hash some things out.

And maybe Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum is the place to do that, I dunno. Things can continue on like they have, too, that's fine, it'll be what it'll be. I just thin that this segment of aikiweb space has an opportunity to differentiate itself from the "aiki is love" or "my sensei will tell me all I need to know" rubric of discussions (not objecting to them, either, just haven't found them very helpful in dissecting the "how-to's" of IS/IP).

But even keeping the discussion points at how are you training to connect your body as a single unit, while manipulating the natural forces of gravity pulling you down and the ground pushing you up. Those are very useful "single toe in the doorway" concepts that can be an easy gate into the IS/IP discussions (and if you disagree, I'd love to hear why, from a socialization of concepts perspective). So there can still be allowances for keeping the "proprietary" stuff on the down low as folks are likely wont to do.

That way, you can allow the conversations to range from "here's my take" to "here's the only way it can possibly work" and everything i between.

Just as someone who spent a few years moderating and administering a forum covering martial arts, well, it is a thankless job. The server space is trivial. The mental energy is tremendous. Best of luck if you do it.

Just as someone who spent a few years moderating and administering a forum covering martial arts, well, it is a thankless job. The server space is trivial. The mental energy is tremendous. Best of luck if you do it.

Thanks - I know what you are saying since it won't be my first if it happens besides, there is always Rum Soaked Fist out there as well.

Try and see if you can make Dan Harden and Mike Sigman interested in the place. If not, you won't get that much activity and the situation here won't change much either.

I agree with David Skaggs that Aikiweb is being used for self promotion, in a way that doesn't always look very pretty.

What Hanna said. If the goal of the IS people is to discuss IS, I'm not really sure why they're here in the first place, but hypothetically, if a space were created for them, they might go play there. Or, they might not. Who would their audience be? Presumably there are other IS/IP/IP/IQ/whatever people out there on the interwebs, right? Or maybe not. If there was an audience, it seems like a forum would have been created by now, but who knows? If what you really want is a soapbox, a vehicle for self-promotion and a handy pot to stir, Aikiweb is serving that function, and there's no reason why the ISTPQ contingent would go elsewhere.

IMO the only purpose a dedicated "aiki" forum would serve is to highlight that there is an area of this site that discusses "aiki" separately from the art in general. Which might drive new or more casual visitors to enter it in order to figure out what it means. From that point on it would be no different than the current NAMT forum, back biting, bickering and non-discussions included.

Some good points made recently - so, let's just forget another forum and let Jun create a sub-forum if he likes; or just leave things as they are and see what evolves. A few months ago I ran the thought through my head about creating another forum and eventually decided not to pursue it - thanks to all for reminding why i came to that conclusion.

However, the thought of creating a site that ONLY Dan and Mike can post to does have a somewhat perverse appeal to it - It be like Saturday night at the IS fights - great entertainment for all

Hanna
I understand your view. However, I find the notion that Aikiweb is being "used" a rather strong statement. When you speak this way, you also speak ill of your peers.

And for self promotion?
I will agree that we are promoting. Where we disagree is on ...what... we are promoting.
We are promoting ideas and methods, and teachers of different styles.

The main issue I see is one of education. Aikido-ka are finding out what ki and aiki mean in the history of the martial arts of the world, spanning many cultures and eras. Discussions of ki and aiki ...are...discussions of aikido, and that is the basis of our discussions here. It's puzzling for me to see it placed in Non-Aikido Martial Traditions, when your entire art is based on it.

On a personal level I find myself surrounded by teachers and students of Aikido these days (from all branches of the art) and every one of them sees this as foundational to what aikido is.
All the best
Dan

On a personal level I find myself surrounded by teachers and students of Aikido these days (from all branches of the art) and every one of them sees this as foundational to what aikido is.
All the best
Dan

I think that's the part I have the most difficulty in understanding is that you have testimonial after testimonial of senior persons that have gotten hands on with people, then saying, at the very least, typically, "There's value here", if not calling it part of the foundational "stuff" of the art they practice. (I know where I fall on the value spectrum, but I'm allowing for those that still consider IS/IP a "nice to have").

So, it seems that there would at least be an impetus to "get out and see" rather than write it off wholesale, like I've seen done by those without direct experience. For those that aren't interested, don't care, then fine - ignore it and move on. Why spend the energy combating the notion of it if you aren't going to follow up and get hands-on experience?

Along the lines of what Greg and others have been mentioning in terms of discussions specifically addressing this stuff. I think there's merit in having designated threads/forums where everyone comes to the table to air their side/approach/perspective. Call it a transparency forum where people can say, here's what I'm working on, how to apply it, etc. Understanding upfront that there will be folks that contribute from the perspective of "I already know all that and you're doing it wrong" - I would ask that they be challenged based on the logic of their points, rather than "You're a big meanie!!".

Anyways, I'm still optimistic as more people get demonstrable skills it will be more a clinical discussion and less a philosophical one. I know they're best had in person, but as someone still very limited in my travelability, I gotta make do with what I got. So I'm selfishly an advocate for these types of discussions to be fruitful and go somewhere productive, ultimately. Even if the end state is that it gets you to figure out who you want to meet up with in person.

I think Jun's decision of the Non aikido martial traditions is fine and works well.
Other issues that have not been brought up:
1. What is the response to teachers and students in aikido bringing up IP/aiki and wanting to discuss it? 2. What is the response when aikido members constantly bring up other arts, such as Chris Hein recently bringing up koryu, Kevin Leavitt bringing up BJJ? It happens all the time, and the discussion will often, at least partially veer from the main topic. Good conversations, that we love to be part of -those long sit on the porch and sip...are the ones that meander and we lose track of time. It's much the same here.
3. What is the response to DR people being asked to teach aiki at Ikeda's school, Ledyards, Gleasons, Abrams, two of Chiba's as well and people want to discuss it? Much more so that the discussions are not heated and are anything but controversial. As one teachers noted "Its aiki for God sake, what the hell are we debating?"

Jun's response has typically been "keep it aikido related," so its' really up to Jun to decide what HE THINKS is and is not related to aikido. Even that has led to some debate as well, I know Rob Liberti left over that. His feelings were that after 30yrs in the art, who the hell has the right to tell him that what is or is not "aikido related."
I can't print Gleasons or Ledyards response to the same idea.
All that said, it is his house, and since it is a thankless Job that most people in their right mind would never do, all that is left to do is just say thanks.
Cheers
Dan

Discussions of ki and aiki ...are...discussions of aikido, and that is the basis of our discussions here. It's puzzling for me to see it placed in Non-Aikido Martial Traditions, when your entire art is based on it.

I'll just quote something that you, yourself, wrote, Dan:

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

I think Juns point is precise though.
a) Talk about aiki training in context of aikido, how it relates, in the larger forums.
b) Talk about where it came from or how it used in other arts in the Non-Aikido forum.

And, to quote myself (which feels funny):

Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote:

I am very happy to have people discussing historical, technical, and other aspects of arts outside of aikido and how it relates to aikido in the general aikido forums here -- as long as those discussions are focused on their relationship to aikido. Once it starts to focus outside of aikido, I believe the discussion should be moved to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. As I have written in the past, I created the AikiWeb Forums for people to discuss the art of aikido and their experiences in the art. There may be many influences that people have had in their experiences that have helped elucidate certain elements of their aikido practice. I sure have. And, I'm frankly happy to hear people discussing their experiences from non-aikido sources in the general forums -- as long as they discuss how their experiences relate directly to their on-going aikido practice.

Lastly, to quote myself again:

Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote:

Hi folks,

Can you please take discussions not pertaining directly to the formation of the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum outside of this thread? Thanks.

Hi Bud
I just don't see why the NAMT doesn't already service both discussions and debate of ANYTHING non aikido related?
Dan

Yeah, I guess I wasn't clear - not arguing that it does or does't so much as I'm trying to encourage people that want to agree to discuss their approaches and how-to's (to the extent they're comfortable sharing, obviously) to voice if it's working for them to do so here or if somewhere else would be better. I'm game to participate either way, but I know some of the outlets to date have their own baggage attached.

I'm so hit and miss in the time I spend online that I basically resort to going where the action is, but am not reliably a regular contributor either way, even if I have skin in the game for advancing the discussion.

Jun
I see us in utter agreement.
Both of my statements line up.
If folks"in aikido
are discussing their experiences in training IP aiki and that THEY believe it is foundational to the art
and othersin aikido
get angry that they keep hearing it....
and yet all of them are...in aikido
then it just seems like a bunch of aikido folk arguing ki and aiki!
Same ol same ol.

If they swtich to ICMA, DR, or Koryu..then they do it in NAMT.

I'm starting to wonder if the real issue is that folksin aikidoare sick and tired of hearing about IP/aiki from other folks in aikidoand that NAMT really has nothing to do with it anymore?
Cheers
Dan

Yeah, I guess I wasn't clear - not arguing that it does or does't so much as I'm trying to encourage people that want to agree to discuss their approaches and how-to's (to the extent they're comfortable sharing, obviously) to voice if it's working for them to do so here or if somewhere else would be better. I'm game to participate either way, but I know some of the outlets to date have their own baggage attached.

I'm so hit and miss in the time I spend online that I basically resort to going where the action is, but am not reliably a regular contributor either way, even if I have skin in the game for advancing the discussion.

So you agree that NAMT is servicing the need then?
I think the discussions from aikido-ka, to, aikido-ka and about aikido and IP/aiki, will naturally evolve. AIkiweb has evolved with it and has become a known source for the discussion of Aikido and other arts as well.
Vocal minorities can make a lot of noise either way.
Only Jun knows how positive or negative that has been or will be in the long run.
Cheers
Dan

So, it seems that there would at least be an impetus to "get out and see" rather than write it off wholesale, like I've seen done by those without direct experience. For those that aren't interested, don't care, then fine - ignore it and move on. Why spend the energy combating the notion of it if you aren't going to follow up and get hands-on experience?

Budd, are you familiar with the concept of signal and noise? The "ignore it and move on" approach works in some circumstances, not in others. A forum ceases to be useful for its intended purpose when the signal -- the posts and comments that are on the topic of the forum -- are drowned out by an incessant high volume of posts and comments on another topic, any other topic. If I go to a physics forum and start posting about grilled cheese sandwiches (because after all, don't the laws of physics apply to grilled cheese sandwiches?), and for every post on a real physics topic I post one or two grilled cheese posts, it's a bit disingenuous to say that the solution is for the people who want to discuss physics to "just ignore it".

And thus brings the debate to its head, Mary.
Seriously and kindly, I suggested that only Jun can solve it, because our very real debate IS... one of pertinence, IS...one of relevance. Your opening comment regarding "signal to noise" in itself suggests a lack of relevance; noise as opposed to good signal.
Gees... I cannot see how the two sides will meet in the middle. It's just like the ki wars.

Group a. Are all aikido-ka. They are convinced that this is foundational to the art. So much so that it would naturally permeate many discussions. Sure its not the entirety, but it is damn close to being unavoidable.

Group b. Are all aikido-ka. They don't see it that way. They see it as a part of aikido. and not even one that is overly relevant.

Both groups are aghast at each others position.

Jun is left to be the arbiter of different aikido-ka debating.The real point is not even about non-aikido related material anyway.
The NAMT is a very decent solution for a while. And Jun can monitor and send things there if it gets to heavy.
So where I can respect where you are coming from with the signal to noise, I am sorry to disagree. That said, can we try a middle?
All the best
Dan