On 15/01/2013 bones wrote:>When you put it like that it's obvious, but sometimes, particularly in>alpine climbing, I may do some unroped scrambling pitches, or simulclimbing>without much gear, to save time. Also, I often disassemble the anchor at>the top of a climb instead of staying roped until I know what the scramble>off might be. >All these accidents feed into an overall risk assessment when weighing>up speed against safety..

I've done that too in the moutains, but up there speed is a form of safety.
On cruisey 2 pitch climb at Piddo, speed doesn't lead to safety, and so I would say that not using a 3 piece anchor is a poor decsion.

To Rock Turtle, thanks for posting up. I've had a big groud fall in the past and I found that getting my head back into the game took ages. But I did, and I learned from my mistakes, so now I'm climbing safer and harder than ever. I hope that you find the same when your recovery is over and you get back onto the rock.

On 15/01/2013 mikllaw wrote:>Has anyone climbed 'whatever you like'? I don't think I have.>>The route on the right that they had a look at was masochist I think,>a scary 18

Haven't climbed 'Whatever.." although I've climbed my fair share of trad choss in the mountains. Beware old Harry Luxford climbs.. WYL was until recently graded 12.. I've climbed the retro bolted companion route 'Chicken Hearted' (left of WYL) which seemed stiff for 13 and probably a similar 'where does the route go' pitch two. Please, out of towners be very cautious with bluies low grade trad, the holds do have a very bad habit of breaking and spitting you off, I had a very similar experience on Illych out at Lockey's Pylon, falling off pitch 3 with a very large sandstone jug in my hand.

There is a certain skill to climbing Bluies choss! Neither Mike nor myself managed to break off (accidentally!) any holds on our recent ground up multipitch! We both know what not to trust. The ol' feel the width of an ironstone foothold is one of the more unique Bluies climbing moves.

I was very sorry to hear what happenned to you Patrick & your partner, i hope you both make a complete recovery very soon .

A few musings

I have climbed and belayed in the area you were in, doing Masochist in 1972 when it was still an aid route; i probably belayed very close to your belay. in those days i made notes in the guide all the time and i wrote (above Ewbank's suggested anchor of a piton) "& spike & cracker; 3" bong handy". I doubt i was carrying the bong but i did have pegs up to 1 1/2" for the Masochist crux aid(then- done free in 77) pitch. That does suggest a fairly wide horizontal crack betwen the various strata.

I've never done WYL or Chicken Hearted but in recent years i've done Harry's latter day route Merlot Madness at least twice which is the line of 8 (I think) bolts to the left of WYL, and i remember the big horizontal going across the cliff. On one occasion I split MM and belayed in the horizontal off a couple of cams to let my partner lead the top bit. So i can see how you might have been set up.

This is not the first case of a cam placement failure leading to an accident, i remember a death at Mt York in 2006 when a climber had a groundfall off Obituary, after a cam popped. I think a discussion at the time was that the cams are probably in better if they are no more than half way open (if that makes sense) the more they go from 50 towards 100% the less holding ability they have. (I stress i do not know if this was the case in this incident, nor have i seen any data on holding power vs % open).

Trying to hold the a falling climber on the belay anchor alone has always been seen as a prodigous task, (look up Wilfred Noyce) these days possibly made easier by a fast locking belay device like a grigri or a BD toothed ATC, but that could very easily cause a big shock loading on the anchors, which might fail unless REALLY bombproof.

Earlier in 1972 there was a big lead fall (almost) straight onto the belay on a climb at Narrowneck which could have ended like this incident, or worse. Almost by chance the leader had put a runner in the belay system itself which, in hindsight, must have been enough to back up the scungy old peg and bolt that were the primary anchors that the very watchful and alert belayer depended upon. That incident was a big learning for me and i have always tried to assemble a belay since that time with a built in runner of some sort.

Pat & your partner; the very best wishes for your recovery. We hope to see you enjoying Piddo again as many of us have done over the years.

On 15/01/2013 simey wrote:>>>I placed a cam deep into the horizontal crack for my partner to clip>into.>>4. This is the anchor you had as the belay and which ultimately failed.>Although you have mentioned that you should have rebuilt your three-point>anchor, I am keen to know why this placement failed. Single point belays>still work (providing you have a good placement!) Did you think this was>a good piece? And if so, why did it fail?>

I agree. Although 1 piece anchors aren't good they still should hold you. Two out of two pieces failed here. That isn't great.

If it is anything like other areas of Piddington there is a good chance that that ledge was an area of incut soft choss. So the cam might have been placed deep but if it is placed in chalky choss then thats not much good!

patto, what value do you think that adds? You've strung together so many ifs and mights that your statement isn't worth a squirt of piss. Go to Piddo, climb the route, find the spots where the cam and nut pulled, then you might actually be able to add something worthwhile.

It really sucks that the two climbers were hurt, I wish them a speedy recovery. Isn't that all there is to be said?

On 15/01/2013 jrc wrote:>Almost by chance the leader had put a runner in the belay system itself which, in hindsight, must have been enough to back up the scungy old peg and bolt that were the primary anchors that the very watchful and alert belayer depended upon. That incident was a big learning for me and i have always tried to assemble a belay since that time with a built in runner of some sort.

I think I have the correct picture in mind of what you are describing, but seek further clarification.

Are you referring to putting a separate (say) quickdraw on one of the (say three point), belay pieces, then clipping the lead rope to it as a normal runner?
Depending upon direction of loading, I would expect that this practise would introduce the possibility of a 'cascade failure' of a belay, if the primary pieces were less than secure, and I would add further pieces to the belay if necessary (and possible!), to counteract that scenario.

The belays where I have found this most likely (and have done similar myself to avoid a possible FF2 onto the belay), are usually hanging belays, with hard moves off it till the next good runner can be placed.

Post edit:> i have always tried to assemble a belay since that time with a built in runner of some sort.

If my above mental picture is correct, have you considered carrying a 'screamer' (tear-stitch load-limiting runner), dedicated for use at belays?

>Are you referring to putting a separate (say) quickdraw on one of the (say three point), belay pieces, then clipping the lead rope to it as a normal runner?>Depending upon direction of loading, I would expect that this practise would introduce the possibility of a 'cascade failure' of a belay, if the primary pieces were less than secure, and I would add further pieces to the belay if necessary (and possible!), to counteract that scenario.

Not really. I have got into the practice of rigging the first runner as a runner independent of the other belay anchors (although sometimes i might sling it looseley into the belay as well, eg using the top carabiner of the quickdraw & another sling) before i leave the 'ledge'. I'll have to rethink my options if i encounter a 'hanger' with a hard move. I might stay in the pub instead.

>Post edit:> i have always tried to assemble a belay since that time with a built in runner of some sort.

>If my above mental picture is correct, have you considered carrying a 'screamer' (tear-stitch load-limiting runner), dedicated for use at belays?

On 15/01/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>patto, what value do you think that adds? You've strung together so many>ifs and mights that your statement isn't worth a squirt of piss.
Hmm. Two "ifs" don't make a wrong! ;-)

On 16/01/2013 jrc wrote:>>Are you referring to putting a separate (say) quickdraw on one of the>(say three point), belay pieces, then clipping the lead rope to it as a>normal runner?>>Depending upon direction of loading, I would expect that this practise>would introduce the possibility of a 'cascade failure' of a belay, if the>primary pieces were less than secure, and I would add further pieces to>the belay if necessary (and possible!), to counteract that scenario.>>Not really. I have got into the practice of rigging the first runner as>a runner independent of the other belay anchors (although sometimes i might>sling it looseley into the belay as well, eg using the top carabiner of>the quickdraw & another sling) before i leave the 'ledge'. I'll have to>rethink my options if i encounter a 'hanger' with a hard move. I might>stay in the pub instead.>
Thanks for the clarification.

>>Post edit:>> i have always tried to assemble a belay since that time with a built>in runner of some sort.>>>If my above mental picture is correct, have you considered carrying a>'screamer' (tear-stitch load-limiting runner), dedicated for use at belays?>>I would only use a screamer if the belay failed outright!

If there are hard moves off the belay ledge with no immediate gear, my preference is to lower the belayer down to the last bolt or gear and incorporate that into the belay so there is no FF 2 potential.
I would also clip a piece or the whole belay as the first piece depending on situation.

I think when you are on belay, have a piece utilised as an anchor (questionable as it is to have a 1 point anchor), are placing gear (and it must have looked at least a little like actual climbing to be bothering placing a piece, even if you thought it was crap), and committing yourself to holds not on the ledge, you are not "scoping the route" - you are climbing. If you aren't wandering around somewhere doing stuff you'd happily solo, you should have a standard belay set up - having a picture in the back of my mind of what the likely consequences of something going wrong is usually works well for keeping me tediously safe. And when you are wandering off into the unknown, it's even more important to maintain normal safety procedures. There are plenty of times in climbing when we head off without a complete picture of the route, it's part of the fun a lot of the time too.

I have a bit of a paranoia about freak accidents - stuff beyond your control happening - and i try to climb with some back up in case something unexpected happens. Hence you'll find I rope scrambles other people won't, will keep people on belay when they would normally not be fussed about it, put gear in regularly even when the climbing is easy. I'd say most of these habits came from a nasty accident 16 years ago when part of a path I was on decided not stay there anymore, prior to which i was a lot more blasť (indeed, like many climbers are), but lots of people have nasty accidents they don't learn from, but I hope you guys recover well, keep climbing and look after yourselves in the future.

I hope you both continue recovering, it was a very tragic accident., Something that I have learned from this is how much force is involved in a factor 2 fall. I always knew it was a lot, but... there was some significant rope damage in this accident which I personally believe was from the force. I don't know if there is any sensitivities around it so maybe the climbers involved might elaborate, although it is not really necessary for others to learn from.

I was shaken to see u guys, wish u speedy recovery and a return to climbing. I have certainly changed my approach to climbing, mainly by being super vigilant in protecting against the ff2, even if it means placing pro 10cm above a 3 point anchor (which I did on my very next multi). Remember, if rope stretch is 20%, a ff2 fall can multiply your body weight by at least 10 times (using uniform deceleration and conservation of energy). I'm 85, so that would be at least 850kg on the rope, ancr and belay, your harness, and your body!

>I was shaken to see u guys, wish u speedy recovery and a return to climbing.>I have certainly changed my approach to climbing, mainly by being super>vigilant in protecting against the ff2, even if it means placing pro 10cm>above a 3 point anchor (which I did on my very next multi). Remember, if>rope stretch is 20%, a ff2 fall can multiply your body weight by at least>10 times (using uniform deceleration and conservation of energy). I'm 85,>so that would be at least 850kg on the rope, ancr and belay, your harness,>and your body!

A bit more math for the masses, a bd cam is rated to 8kn (less for smaller ones.) 8kn is 800kg, therefore you could actually expect a single cam to fail under a ff2 fall generating 850kg of force - something which is not an obvious thing. Common sense would say a 10m fall with 20m rope out would be worse than a 4m fall with 2m rope out hunting for your first piece, although in reality you have the system absorbing 2.5x body weight in the first compared to 10x body weight in second.

Again though, I knew this before the accident, but it was never really cemented until I saw the results. Be careful out there guys n gals. Learn from others! if u don't like math, use craploads of pro on anchors and before runouts.