Hagley Digital Archives

The Hagley Digital Archives provides online access to selected items from the Hagley Library's collection of images, documents, and publications related to the history of business, technology, and society.

Interview with Thomas Kellogg, 2002-02-15 [audio]

Transcript: Interviewer: I'm here with Tom Kellog at Irvine, California on February 15, 2002, the day after Valentine's Day and we're going to talk about his work with Raymond Loewy and his own work apart from Raymond Loewy and various things like that.

Kellogg: What I was going to start out with was where I have the Avanti. It's the biggest book. This is my logo there. Bob Andrews had this drawing when we started the project. Now Lawrence Loewy has some sketches on her father's site which he never showed us of the Avanti. They were done in Europe I guess. They were really nice sketches.

Interviewer: When we talked on the phone, I read somewhere that he had 3 or 4 versions that he had done before he called you all to the rented house in Palm Springs.

Kellogg: It was like starting over again I guess with this group here.

Interviewer: This was John Ebstein and Loewy and Bob Andrews and you and one of the dogs. He had dogs all his life.

Kellogg: The dogs belonged to his wife. Here's another shot like this with her there.

Interviewer: We have that picture and Ebstein took it apparently because he's the one who's missing in the picture.

Kellogg: Loewy would always be saying, John, John could come here and take a picture? Yes Mr. Loewy. Both being European, they were...

Interviewer: Ebstein was German or Austrian?

Kellogg: He was German. They were very formal. It's too bad because they were both funny guys that never really had the chance to appreciate it.

Interviewer: It's amazing I've seen letters from Ebstein late in Loewy's life where he still addresses him as Mr. Loewy always.

Kellogg: Right. When I was working for Gould & Associates up in Westwood and I introduced Loewy and Gould to one another and we went out to lunch. Loewy was jotting something on a business card and he handed it to me and he marked off the Mr. Loewy part and left the Raymond. Then I felt wrong by not - so I had to call him Raymond which really seemed totally wrong.

Interviewer: It didn't feel natural.

Kellogg: It didn't seem natural.

Interviewer: He says in some of his own accounts of the Avanti thing that Viola brought champagne from time to time. Do you remember any champagne?

Kellogg: Yeah, they'd come in once a day around a certain time and look things over and he was always very happy. He says, darling come look at this, and she'd get involved. What do you tink?

Interviewer: Did she play much of a role in his business life?

Kellogg: Not amongst a lot of people, but yeah she did. Lawrence, he seemed to bounce off of his family very easily. He wanted their approval on things. Yeah he wasn't out there just thrusting his own ideas. He was always trying to balance.

Interviewer: That's one of the big things that I've concluded about his work is there's always a search for a sense of balance. He didn't like extremes either of modernism or pre-modern styles. I think that may have had something to do with his success. I mean that's why consumers found his things acceptable.

Kellogg: He knew just how far to take something to make it really turn out.

Designing the Avanti

Keywords: Avanti automobile.; Bob Andrews; John Ebstein

Transcript: Interviewer: This is a nice sketch. It must have been pretty late because it looks fairly close to the finished Avanti.

Kellogg: All these sketches in here I did. Bob revealed once to saying that as I mentioned he worked primarily on the clay model and I worked primarily in the sketching area although he did do some sketching and I did do some clay.

Interviewer: What was Ebstein's role?

Kellogg: His was to keep us happy and always to come up with something clever, like there was a problem with the bugs getting into the grill area in the first Avantis. I'm not sure - it was hard to tell with John what he did because, most of it was thinking. I think it was his idea to go to a stove manufacturer and have them, you know, the little shelves that you put in the stove...

Interviewer: mm hmm.

Kellogg: and have them make a grill shape like that and that would help. I think he did most the work on the hubcaps in converting the original 53 into the one with the 5 star.

Interviewer: I just bought a 53 hubcap and after I saw it on the cover when the car was in that exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art in 1953 they put the hubcap in the cover so I wanted to get one maybe to use in the exhibit. I can see this is similar except for these add ons on that.

Kellogg: They always kind of say the car kind of designed itself. It seemed who to put together to do the right things because all of us were bitching and groaning about it at different points about different things we didn't like. But when the car was done somehow it worked.

Interviewer: I think they're beautiful - it was just a wonderful car.

Kellogg: It took me something like about 5 years to get one because I had a little Porsche and the
Porsche spoils you in certain areas.

Interviewer: I saw you still have Porsche posters around the house. These are great.

Kellogg: Course these were the original shots. Again these are my sketches. This was the rear end sketches I did and this was the first sketch I did that showed the top the way it turned out. Ingret seemed to like - and Loewy too - they seemed to like the approach I was taking. Each one of us had a different approach. When I say each one of us, Bob and myself, we were primarily the practioners on the project. Bob wanted it to look a little more like a Ferrari and I did a lot of boat designing so I did a lot of things that kind of resembled boats of the time. One time I sliced that there to make it look like we're in a regular studio. I said, now let's be honest here. Here's where I worked. Loewy worked there. Bob worked up on the edge of the sink right along here in the foreground. It was just a dumb little tract house.

Interviewer: Did Loewy - you said on the phone that he gave you some guidelines when you all worked on the car.

Kellogg: These are them right here.

Interviewer: These sketches.

Kellogg: He had those sketches. Yeah, when I came in he said this is what I want and he said if you do those things and you have ideas of your own go ahead and do them. Like we didn't know whether it was going to be a 2-seater, 4-seater or what but I know I had a couple of little girls so I was continually drawing the car as a 4 passenger. I think Bob already his kids were already grown up so he was doing a 2 passenger. John was always working something out that needed some clever thinking to keep the cost down.

Interviewer: So he was the engineer so to speak.

Kellogg: Yeah. The guy that kept the designers from going too wild.

Loewy's process and style

Keywords: Bob Andrews;John Ebstein; Studebaker automobile.

Transcript: Interviewer: At this point did you have any input from anybody at Studebaker or was that only later?

Kellogg: If there was only Loewy knew about it cause I kept telling him to put his cars up on the wall. He said, oh no they're old - you know all his personal cars. I said, yeah but there's a direction that you're going and so finally he put them up on the wall but it was always like every day he wanted to start new kind of.

Interviewer: I've seen in his papers that he made little notes, he always had little note cards, most of which he picked up at the New York Athletic Club. He would make notes about particular aspects- just one feature of a car that he had seen recently that he liked. Then these seemed to accumulate in his mind and then he'd have a list of some of them when an opportunity to do a new car came along.

Kellogg: Well all of our drawings, you know after we didn't see them for a while, then we'd see them - we'd see all of his signatures over them all and little notes. He was a real note giver. He was always dressed for the situation, like they called it his desert attire. John and Bob, they were from more the New York area, and they were wondering what the hell is wrong with this guy.They kept saying, he's crazy. Like John, I remember, John was sweating when he came out; he was puffing. He said, that man's crazy. He has me out in the desert now; last week he had me over somewhere else. To me, he gets right into the action and he acts the part.

Interviewer: He does seem to have had something of a sense of costume almost. He was always presenting himself for whatever seemed to be the situation.

Kellogg: Most industrial designers are kind of square and kind of boring.

Interviewer: I haven't seen all that many. It's important I think to designers to signal that they're not just ordinary corporate types so they don't dress like plain vanilla business people would. They are different enough that you can tell that they're a little artistic maybe.

Kellogg: Well they're starting to give them the benefit of doing that now too where at one time you had to do the opposite. You had to pretend you were a business man.

Interviewer: Are these Studebaker photographs?

Kellogg: I think so. Pretty much so. I don't know who did this - John could have done that. That's the full sized clay. I had a picture of our model in here. There's a lot of photos I have but they're all elsewhere. They were just out from the Avanti Association, the guy in charge of memorabilia; he wanted a record of everything that I had done on the Avanti and so forth. This is all copies of work that he took. He went to Kinko's and just took copies of things. Here's another shot I have but that's one of those shots, oh John, would you take a picture of me? Somehow he'd come out with his white coat on and his clay tools and look like he was working on it.

Interviewer: I've noticed in the papers that we have there are a number of photographs that are identified as having been taken by Ebstein. I don't mean on this project but all other projects.

Kellogg: Yeah. John was almost like a Loewy servant. He was a gopher. Loewy would have him get his cars fixed and everything. John was always mad at him but they were both funny. They were like brothers when you were with them alone, you knew that they were matched. They really loved one another.

Interviewer: I read a couple of interviews that Ebstein did where he does show a lot of affection for Loewy. He's not uncritical.

Kellogg: He used to be a whole lot more but now that he's aged more he's has a lot more acceptance of him.

Interviewer: You were saying earlier that the people that you knew who worked with Loewy and who stayed with him were very fond of him, felt alot of affection for him.

Kellogg: Yeah.

Interviewer: I know there were some who didn't and left earlier in his life, before the Avanti, like
Virgil Eksner and some of the other car people.

Kellogg: I have a lot of people approach me and say, doesn't it make you mad that he gets the credit for the coal car? I say well that was a different time. You were really fortunate if someone of greatness wanted to hire you for something and you were just happy just to be there.

Transcript: Interviewer: It seems to have been pretty much understood that those were the ground rules. His
name went on everything. Betty Reece had an essay in that German book of essays on Loewy
where she has some line about how everything was done in his name because then it was then
easier to sell his services in the marketplace. I think that's the way things worked. How did he
get in touch with you to get you involved with the project?

Kellogg: I'm not sure but I believe he phoned Art Center and he talked to the instructors there and
wanted to know if there was a young designer that's out on the west coast here, automobile
designer that didn't go to Detroit. That was me. I was one of them anyway. I went to Detroit just
long enough to work at Ford to realize that I didn't like cars well enough to sit and do door
handles or side treatments the rest of my life. At that time it was that way but now they're totally
different.

Interviewer: I that right?

Kellogg: Yeah. So I stayed out here and I was working in Newport Beach - I was designing boats.
One Saturday morning, I'm kind of a late riser, and the phone rang and my ex handed it to me
and said it's for you. I said, Hello. I was still half asleep and this voice on the other end, is this
Tom Kellog? Yes. Say, this is Raymond Loewy. Would you like to work on a sports car with me?
I'm thinking oh bull shit. I'm not going to argue at this point in time. I say yeah. He said would
you have any work I could see? I'm in Palm Springs and I'd like to see what you do. I said, oh
yeah I do have some work. About 2 weeks prior I sat down and did a lot of sketching of cars for
some reason - I didn't know why. So I went out to Palm Springs and he was going through my
work saying, I think we think alike. I like your work. I thought well this is unusual because you
get better as you do more but he seemed to like my thinking I guess. I'm not quite sure if it was
an instructor or friend or what.

Interviewer: I know it seems to have recruited people often through art centers. He thought that was,
if not the best American design school, then certainly one of the best.

Kellogg: I teach there part time. I always tell them if they get in a position where they have to have
someone I have done it but the drive is just horrible. I mean it takes all day long.

Interviewer: 405 is hard work.

Kellogg: It's bumper to bumper the whole way and of course I'm at the age now where I have to
stop and use the bathroom a lot. Again, that makes it miserable. I really enjoy teaching but for
the money they pay you wasn't that much. I may be teaching a class over at UCI, Irvine for a
summer class which is right around the corner so that would work out good. This is probably car
designer heaven now. When I first moved down here there was maybe one other car designer,
Chuck Pelley who ended up with doing the BMW's. It was always a place where automobiles
were a focus. Newport Beach has a lot of wealthy people from Beverly Hills and all around.
They come down and they have a nice home on the water with a boat and it's sort of a wealthy
person's paradise but also integrated is a lot of clever people that they hire to keep their boats
up and stuff like that. I remember the cow boats, they started here. History has been changed
by this area. I don't know why. Rebels get in here and they finally get a chance to do something
and they change and if then if they have a real good idea it's bought out by some large
company in the east, like most of the car companies I worked for was purchased byBangor Punta in Bangor, Maine.

Interviewer: What's this photograph?

Kellogg: That's at Studebaker. I guess the light obliterated a lot.

Interviewer: Some sort of celebration of Avanti?

Kellogg: No it's not the Avanti but the one right after the war. The 47. Here it is too. There's an art
center instructor somewhere in here. This was Virgil Exinary I think, when he was with them. This is of
course all my stuff all through here - all these sketches. Most of the sketches were, all the
originals I think, Loewy sold off. After the Avanti he was so pleased with the Avanti he wanted
the same guys to work on a new Studebaker line and that's all of this work here. This is my own
stuff right in here.

Interviewer: Did that line ever actually get produced?

Kellogg: Up to here.

Interviewer: So these are the ones in the last years when Studebaker was still making cars.

Kellogg: Yeah. Here was all the front end sketches I did, not all of them, but a great deal of them. I
have all of these originals. Here were all different treatments. First phase of the project is all
together in here.

Transcript: Interviewer: We just bought a drawing from a man in France that had been sold in one of those
Loewy auctions. I should send you a picture of it and you can help us identify it.

Kellogg: If it kind of looked like this it was probably mine. I noticed they were getting pretty much
money for my stuff which makes me think since work is slowing down maybe I ought to sell
some of it while it's still worth it. I guess worth never really comes down.

Interviewer: This is a letter he sent you in May of 64 from Paris.

Kellogg: The Avanti wasn't really designed to make money for the company. It was designed,
what I thought, was to show the people what Studebaker was going to do, where their spirit was
going to be. I thought the Avanti was really a good start. It died and this project

Interviewer: succeeded it.

Kellogg: Yeah, so I was the last guy working on all the Studebaker stuff with Loewy and Egbert. I really enjoyed
working with both of them. Both of them were super guys. I met Bob Lutz not too long ago and
Lutz is sort of the same type of guy - just off the shoulders, spontaneous car guy.

Interviewer: That was a shame that Egbert got cancer.

Kellogg: Yeah because he certainly had the skill to do what needed to be done.

Interviewer: Is this another thing that you designed?

Kellogg: Yeah, I say this is the first decent looking motor home. It's not great but it's decent.

Interviewer: It's nice. Who sold it?

Kellogg: That was Revcon. The guy that built it, he was the nephew of Ollie Byrum who did
Airstreams. He was used to aluminum and it was his dream to build - it had good write ups and
everything.

Interviewer: This looks like the 60's based on the model's clothing.

Kellogg: Yeah. I remember everyone smoking grass during that time and listening to the Beaties.

Interviewer: Did Loewy smoke grass?

Kellogg: I have a feeling he did.

Interviewer: There have been a couple of hints in letters and things I've seen. He liked to give people
the idea that he was still with it.

Kellogg: Cool, yeah. I remember one time someone said something - hey if the ideas don't improve any, he
says, why don't you guys start smoking some grass or something. He made some reference to
the ideas being kind of stale and smoke a little bit to give it a kick. I've always wondered about
that.

Interviewer: It's a nice motor home. This was after the Avanti.

Kellogg: After the Avanti. This is when I came back to California. Then finally he said the biggest
problem with building a motor home from the ground up - there were a lot of problems to that so
this time he wanted to just get a stock truck and build on it so I designed this to kind of make it
look like it came out of dodge.

Interviewer: All one unit.

Kellogg: That really got some good publicity but that was right at the time when the major field
crisis hit so he got in his boat and escaped and ended up owing me money.

Interviewer: Early 70's?

Kellogg: Yeah. I found another error, like I had these windows down lower and he found out that's
the way it should have been.

Boats, creating logos and fiberglass

Keywords: boats; snowmobiles; Starcraft

Transcript: Interviewer: This looks like something that would have appealed to Loewy. This drawing here of a
racing machine.

Kellogg: You laid down inside of there. You put your head in there and you kind of crank it on and
it just plain ole accelerates. The wheels would come together and expand. It was just an idea
and I made it kind of look real for the guy. He was real pleased with it.

Interviewer: These are the boats you were talking about. Loewy loved boats. I think there are almost
as many pictures of boats as there are of cars.

Kellogg: Yeah he did. He liked anything that moved. Women too.

Interviewer: He does seem to have had a strong admiration for women.

Kellogg: Yeah. I did this logo for Starcraft - they still have it. I've done a lot of designs for
Starcraft.

Interviewer: Did you do many trademarks in your career?

Kellogg: Yeah. Usually when they didn't have one that was strong I'd do one. I loved doing them
but now days with the computer they're so efficient and can do it so inexpensively.

Interviewer: I don't really understand logos. I just know the ones that I like. There's an essay in that
Angela Shoenberger book about Loewy where somebody tries to write about Loewy and his
logos and it's just not a success at all. There's no real analysis. It isn't any kind of coherent
explanation of it. I think it's very hard to explain.

Kellogg: Yeah. First of all it has to be able to be printed - different sizes. Even in the smallest size
it's got to be noticeable and so it's kind of a hit.

Interviewer: What did Starcraft make?

Kellogg: Starcraft did motor homes, boats - at this time most of their boats were all aluminum and
they had strecks - in other words a bunch a like - just a lot of strecks along the side.

Interviewer: Is this one of these machines that people ride the ocean on.

Kellogg: Snowmobile. They were bought by Bangor Punta and Bangor Punta told them about
myself, that I was redoing their other boats for some of their other clients. These are Owens
here for example. Glassbar here. In those days we couldn't compound anything very much
because you had to use plywood and you can only bend it in one direction where nowadays
they blow in foam and you make them really - boy - that's why the boats look so good today.

Interviewer: You have a lot more freedom in what they can do now.

Kellogg: They did the body panels for the Avanti but I did a line of boats for them.

Interviewer: The boat manufacturer did the body panels?

Kellogg: Yeah.

Interviewer: I've read that Studebaker had a lot of production problems with the fiberglass.

Kellogg: True.

Interviewer: Whose idea was the fiberglass?

Kellogg: It was the only way they could get the car out in time to say, hey look, before you start
getting too serious about what you're buying we want you to see what we're up to.

Interviewer: So that was a directive from Studebaker that whatever it is it's going to have to be a
fiberglass body.

Kellogg: It's got to be out for next year. We didn't meet that criteria. Like I did this stripe. That's
their old logo.

Interviewer: Not nearly as strong as the one you did for them.

Kellogg: No.

Machines and engineering

Keywords: boats; engineering;handwriting; NASA.; space station

Transcript: Interviewer: I can see why you and Loewy got along. You have very similar interests in the machines.

Kellogg: Yes it's amazing like I even worked on a space station for NASA. I got him into Douglas
on the thing because he came out to visit me and he wanted me to do some work for a project
he had in Paris and he was sort of surprised I was working on Douglas. I said, you ought to be
on this project and so he ended with a NASA thing. This is a little boat I designed with this guy
here. He was a client of mine. This boat they still make incidentally - the Skipjack. He's an old
guy now. This was the neatest little boat cause it went real fast. It planed at something like 6
knots where most boats it takes something like 8 or 9 or 10 knots for it to finally break on a
plane but I did the bottom design and I checked it out with. I did several hulls. I could have done
that too. Actually the stadium boats but they kind of bore you after a while.

Interviewer: You did some really nice stuff here.

Kellogg: Yeah. This I thought opened up a whole different idea like here you could go over the
side without the boat tipping drastically on you and you can put a chick in then and make her
look good.

Interviewer: Did you have any engineering background?

Kellogg: No. It was just kind of natural.

Interviewer: You just kind of sensed that this would be a design where you could put weight on one
side and not tip it over.

Kellogg: Yeah. See I saw a lot of people and they get in boats and the boats are always going like
this and I said they ought to design them more like a little barge. I didn't even think in terms of
speed. I just thought in terms of buoyancy - you know wherever you stood on it that you could
just walk around on it. I made it for this reason right here but when we took it out it just went
right up into a plane and it grabbed enough air there and it just really worked beautiful.

Interviewer: Loewy always talked about himself as an engineer. Did you have any sense of that in
him?

Kellogg: He hid it pretty well if he did but he must have had a sense of it cause all of his stuff had
a sense of engineering.

Interviewer: Do you think it was of a sort you were just describing for yourself that's sort of intuitive
rather than grounded in theory and mathematics and so forth.

Kellogg: I believe so. Well he may have been a little better than I as far as mathematics and all
that like his writing, although he'd always make sure that he had lines underneath that he could
see through to write, to keep everything orderly. Aesthetics was so important to him that I don't
think he would have been real happy as a peer engineer.

Interviewer: His handwriting is beautiful and very easy to read. I felt grateful for that many times in
reading letters and so forth that we have of his.

Kellogg: I have a whole bunch of letters from him, not only that letter, I thought this letter ought to
be in here because it sort of qualifies me as a designer.

Kellogg's work on boats, cars and Wedgewood

Keywords: boats

Transcript: Interviewer: Let's see what we have here - more boats. That's nice. That's the redone version.

Kellogg: Yeah that I did for the guy in Pennsylvania, Jim Bunting. I'm working on another one for
him. I'll show you that.

Interviewer: That was quite recent wasn't it?

Kellogg: Yeah. I forgot when but there's probably a date. I think the date is on one of the
brochures. He wanted to call it the Avanti but since he didn't have the money to buy the Avanti
he would have had to bought the whole line. He called in AVX.

Interviewer: Well it's pretty clearly related to the Avanti.

Kellogg: Their latest brochure is right next to It here. See they now call it Avanti cause they bought
the whole line.

Interviewer: It's more flattened than the other one.

Kellogg: It's really the same body as the other one.

Oh is it? I guess it's the photography again. It's what makes the bottom disappear. So
now he owns the name.

Kellogg: No Bunting doesn't. Bunting and I would like to come up with a new Avanti to be made
but the odds of that are very slim because you need corporate money like the Japanese.

Interviewer: You really need to persuade some car company existing mass producer to make it.

Kellogg: Like this guy here. I did this for an individual and I lofted the things, all the sections and
blew it up and it worked well. The guy that did the - he's on TV, he has that program - Tim
Allen.

Interviewer: You did this for Tim Allen?

Kellogg: No, I did this for John Masumi who has it at Tim Allen's now who will engineer it if he can
manufacture the car.

Interviewer: It's his image on television - power, a little bit out of control. These are nice.

Kellogg: This is the line.

Interviewer: What was it called?

Kellogg: Wedgewood shape 225.

(phone rings)

Interviewer: When did you do the Wedgewood project?

Kellogg: That was somewhere around '83. I know it put me in the hospital.

Interviewer: Oh yeah. How did that happen?

Kellogg: While I was in ailing - see I would bring something like that home done in wood and put
tons of paint on it, like I did with the car. I did the car right after, well actually the car put me in
the hospital. The Wedgewood - I used the philosophy of how do I design a teapot, a new classic element? I said I
should understand the English - that's the center of conversation in a sense, the teapot. It
should be like a magic wand that you can just put into a cup at a lower level so I established
where the handle should be and how the water. I realized that a sphere would stay the hottest
for the longest amount of time but it's hard to pour out of a sphere and they usually put on long
spouts and it cools the water down as you pour it out. So I wanted to shape it so that as you
move it it would just project out of there and so I said I'd love to design a car that way and so I
went in the driver's seat and I said - end of Side 1.

Interviewer: It's really a beautiful line. Is it still available?

Kellogg: No, Wedgewood kind of went out of business. They sold it. They have a new owner now.
This was Rolls Royce. After Wedgewood they did Rolls Royce and this is why I concluded they
were looking for - they never saw this. I pasted this down over one of their current cars on their
brochure just to kind of show the stateliness.

Interviewer: With an English country house in the background.

Kellogg: I know the British well enough to know that they're maintaining the human dignities of the
world. They're in charge of that. That's their role in the world. When you're doing something for
them they always introduce you and give you an opportunity to state the reason why you did
something. I thought this is really nice. If I did this in Mexico or the Mexican communities around
here they wouldn't give a damn. They don't want to hear all this crap. They just want to make
something but the English kind of have to analyze everything and they give everyone a chance
to state their philosophy.

Interviewer: Was this convertible produced?

Kellogg: No. By someone from Irvine? How good would that look? But I knew they had to be high
because a woman when they get in and out of a car over there in hotels and they're dressed up
and they can't get up out of like a Ferrari without showing their underwear. So they have to have
the dignity - everything has to be designed around dignity. This I did after I left Loewy, after I
got that letter from him. It was done in '64. Eventually Freeman Thomas came to work with me.
He left Porsche and he fell in love with that car and he talked me into doing another one,
update.

Where he worked with Loewy

Keywords: Audi automobile.; Jay Maze; Volkswagen automobiles

Transcript: Interviewer: When you worked with Loewy did you work in the New York office?

Kellogg: Not at first. On the Avanti I worked in Palm Springs. The New York office was 2 years
later, or a little over a year later. That was for a 7-week period but then I was off of that project.
A friend of mine went to work for Jay Maze, Volkswagen-Audi and he said Tom could you bring
those 2 Volkswagens out. I want to show Jay and maybe I can talk him into building one and
give you some work. So I did and Jay liked them and they came out with a new Volkswagen.
This looks pretty similar to ..

Kellogg: I just about went over to Germany on this years ago, the Volkswagen of America guy that
saw it said, that's it. He said that's what we should do. I made it just a little bigger for the
environment here.

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