Greetings Klondike;How about posting a few paragraphs from your extended version of Critias? And maybe a few paragraphs from Hermocrates? Maybe throw in a couple of photos of those gold/copper plates just for good measure.

South Africa as Atlantis, well this is not the first time I have seen this proposed, and it raises multiple issues. Firstly South Africa is not an island, and Atlantis was an island. This is not really debatable, for we have multiple ancient sources indicating that it was a group of islands beyond debate, not some portion of a mainland. There are no evidences of an Ice Age civilization found in South Africa. It is quite a distance from the 'pillars of Herakles' too. Interesting place, at one time even attractive for a prospector but hardly the case today. What about the Amazons? Are they located in Namibia? It may not seem too important to your story yet Diodorus informs us that the Amazons were in fact practically neighbors to Atlantis. Certainly close enough for wars to occur, though much later than the destruction of Atlantis, the wars were with the descendants of course. To sum up, your case for South Africa as Atlantis is simply well, not convincing. Not even a little bit.

You are frequently complaining that we are 'not opening the gates' yet you yourself, are one of the most closed-minded persons I have run across online. You have ignored a whole series of other intriguing leads, which unfortunately do not dovetail well with your story line. So good luck to you, hope those school children are enjoying your secret text books. I presume you will also be hosting secret field trips to show the youngsters the secret ancient ruins, get a real feel for the ancient star-culture you have spoken of? If not, then it should be. Children usually are more interested when a story has some field trips involved.

I came to the conclusion some time ago that replying to Ben was to be done for the exact same reason that he posts.......boredom. Kinda like playing Pong, just something to pass the time.

Hope all is well with you, Beth and the various and sundry pups.

Take care,

Joe

Have to agree on your statements. Thanks for the kind thoughts, I hope that you are well and Smoky is bossing you around.

I just got word that our mutual friend Berta Curry passed away yesterday, Real de Tayopa's wife. I don't know if you ever got a chance to meet her, but she was a real sweetheart, and a good match for Jose. I know that she had followed our discussions on another forum but rarely posted herself.

We have only the old red dog now, the other Husky died not long ago. The red dog just turned 17, and she is dying but in a way that is painless for the dog. Strange though, since we lost our Huskies, the old red dog has started acting like a Husky, including the zoomies, arguing with me and even telling me off when she doesn't get her way!

Anyway I am leaving the door open for our friend Klondike, along with the other personalities that post from the same server, in hopes that he will post something to substantiate the many claims that he has made. I don't expect that he ever will

I hope all is well with you, take care and I will write you privately later.Roy

Perhaps it will not do any danger to share with you a bit more. The history of Atlantis is incomplete at best. Even you can grant that as a point of discussion. More is not known about its location than is known.

To understand why South Africa is the home of the ancients it is simple enough to point out that the largest gold deposits in the world are there. Take into account the following:

"The gold bearing rocks are limited to 6 sites where Archean rivers from the north and west formed fan deltas, with many braided channels, before flowing into the “Witwatersrand Sea” to the south, where the earlier sediments that form the older rocks of the Witwatersrand Supergroup had been deposited. Some of these gold bearing fan deltas are now at depths of 4 km below the surface." Wikipedia.

To gain a more fundamental understanding of these deposits you may want to refer to the works of W.R. Liebenberg or D.A. Pretorius.

Simply put in ancient times the expanse of water in South Africa was far greater than today and the favored ground for gold deposition was immense. It is not hard to conceive of an ancient sea bearing people connected to the "Witwatersrand Sea", or its remains. Also keep in mind these deposits contained far more than Gold. Those things really were more important than the gold.

Also in the history and lore of South Africa are refereces to events that clearly correspond to the legends of the ancients.

From here you are on your on. Simply put figure it out.

The history of the library is convincing as based on historical evidence, and the fact the Tucson Artifacts, as discussed in a previous thread show the way. Perhaps it is better to leave it here. A serious dialogue requires more than it seems is possible here.

Good luck in you efforts. Hey the LDM is a good enough legend. That perhaps is more up your alley.

Perhaps it will not do any danger to share with you a bit more. The history of Atlantis is incomplete at best. Even you can grant that as a point of discussion. More is not known about its location than is known.

To understand why South Africa is the home of the ancients it is simple enough to point out that the largest gold deposits in the world are there. Take into account the following:

"The gold bearing rocks are limited to 6 sites where Archean rivers from the north and west formed fan deltas, with many braided channels, before flowing into the “Witwatersrand Sea” to the south, where the earlier sediments that form the older rocks of the Witwatersrand Supergroup had been deposited. Some of these gold bearing fan deltas are now at depths of 4 km below the surface." Wikipedia.

To gain a more fundamental understanding of these deposits you may want to refer to the works of W.R. Liebenberg or D.A. Pretorius.

Simply put in ancient times the expanse of water in South Africa was far greater than today and the favored ground for gold deposition was immense. It is not hard to conceive of an ancient sea bearing people connected to the "Witwatersrand Sea", or its remains. Also keep in mind these deposits contained far more than Gold. Those things really were more important than the gold.

Also in the history and lore of South Africa are refereces to events that clearly correspond to the legends of the ancients.

From here you are on your on. Simply put figure it out.

The history of the library is convincing as based on historical evidence, and the fact the Tucson Artifacts, as discussed in a previous thread show the way. Perhaps it is better to leave it here. A serious dialogue requires more than it seems is possible here.

Good luck in you efforts. Hey the LDM is a good enough legend. That perhaps is more up your alley.

Klondike

I see, you are contending that the presence of large gold fields are a proof of Atlantis in South Africa? What about evidence of contact with Mediterranean peoples?

I am not concerned about the history of the library, I am concerned about the texts of the library. Please post a few photos of the texts so that we can examine them. Even a few photos would be a huge step in the right direction.

Both Joe and I are very well familiar with the LDM legend. Perhaps you already knew that. Like some other legends, the version in circulation today is a conglomeration of several different, unrelated lost mine legends, so mixed up that it is difficult to even extract them at this point.

What about that extended version of Critias and Hermocrates? Can you post a few extracts to help prove your case? Is this asking too much?

I hate to break this to you but Joe and I have always been on our own, your 'help' has continually been nothing but trying to send us on wild goose chases in the Superstitions, and if memory serves, a side trip to Snaketown at one point, along with demands for belief based on the Tucson artifacts and the story line as you have presented it. Hence the repeated requests for things like photographs.

Since I am certain that you will not post any photographs whatsoever, I would like to add one other question - why you are NOT posting them? Are you afraid that they will be denounced as fakes? Are they fakes? Do they look highly questionable? Obviously there is some striking, major problem with the texts of the library or you would not be SO hesitant about posting any photos of them. What about those text books? Is there some problem with those too, that you can't even give out the titles? How about the author's name?

Can you see the problems that have been mounting here for years now? It is always a suspicious deal when one party is too afraid to even give out a real name. As you have seen, I don't mind giving out my real name and use the nickname only because of long habit. Sorry if this all seems too skeptical but you see, if you could only put yourself in our shoes for a moment and look at things from our point of view, you would soon see that your whole presentation seems hollow, devoid of solid evidence. The Tucson artifacts are simply not convincing to everyone no matter how much you may insist they are. Even Dr Barry Fell came to the conclusion they are modern frauds, and Dr Fell was very much of the belief that many ancient cultures visited the Americas. That fact alone ought to have raised at least some caution flags for you, but clearly it did not.

The door is still open Klondike - all you need to do is take that extra step. Of course you can always just walk away, which will reinforce the impression that the whole story is a concocted fake. The next step is yours,Oroblanco

Truth is sometimes better stated in ambivalence. I hate to be the only adult in this conversation, but have you really thought threw the consequences of say providing pages from the Critias that are unknown, or photographs of the gold/copper plates from the ancients, or how about a picture or two from the library of Oz that exposes a map of the Superstitions that show multiple unknown sites or carvings in the library that reflect the life that existed in the Superstitions 10,000 years ago.

Such a course of action would result in total chaos. Horse Mesa would be leveled to the Salt River just to get to the map room of Oz which is still intact. Also the relative peace we have experienced would be destroyed by the resulting publicity. So we simply provide clues that some have figured out and some have not.

For example anyone with reasonable skills can prove beyond doubt that the library of Oz is in fact recorded on the Tucson Artifacts. The evidence is recorded in the mentioned dialogue and the Artifacts themselves.

Perhaps another clue. Jim Bark and Sims Ely spent time at Horse Mesa that was most productive. Why is it Bark spent time on mining operations on both sides of the Salt River close to Horse Mesa? Were those mines really mines or was something else going on. As we have stated before the Trail Maps show locations on the north side of the Salt River and Horse Mesa. Was Bark really after portals that connect sites on the north side of the Salt and a entrance on the south side into the cave complex that becomes the library?

Once Bark and Ely become aware of the library it changed everything for them. Follow their timelines. From New York to Boulder City to mines(?) on both sides of the River.

Hello Old Pueblo,

The platonic dialogue, Hermocrates is the third part of the trilogy Plato wrote dealing with Altantis. The Hermocrates deals with the aftermath of the destruction of both Atlantis and much of the known world. It also spends a considerable amount of time discussing satellite operations of the Ancients with two chapters devoted to discussing the Superstitions and operations that were there. As always Plato included lessons that moderns perhaps could learn. That is the danger of technology running amok. Interestingly enough Plato could not understand what he wrote about but mentions things that would astound folks today. Also the ancients had a rather curious attitude towards technology. That is advanced technology stood side by side with technologies that were relatively primitive. Seems they saw value in both. The celebrated the heroic value of crossing the seas in ancients vessels when they also could make such a journey in a very short period of time. Such is the value of Circlestone. Circlestone points to ancient technologies while utilizing more modest means. Fascinating perspective. Celebration of that which is heroic in place of technology that levels everything.

Circlestone as an aside is a very special place. Embetted in its symbology is a way to a complex near by that has carvings that proves everything we have said.

You're getting progressively weaker with each post. No need to reveal all, just enough to convince us of the existence of the library. You sound very much like the Democrats trying to explain why their memo should be released as it was written. You seem to be convinced that we are simpletons here. That may be true, compared to your education, but so far we are walking circles around you and always have. I would say back to the days of Late.

I am convinced there were civilizations much older than what has been revealed so far. That being said, location is a major factor for their existence. If they existed, in any numbers, there would be traces left behind of their proliferation. The Tucson Artifacts are just a story with no supporting evidence, much like Joseph Smith's initial fable, only much less successful.

Imagine weakness and ambivalence can be viewed similarly depending on your perspective. Have to say at 69 I am a bit slower, both mentally and physically than years ago. No more piloting helicopters around the Superstitions in search of the sacred. That flight from Phoenix to South Africa with a load of goodies was exhausting.

Perhaps you folks should have taken those coordinates that were posted years ago more seriously. You see we posted the answer over 10 years ago to lay the foundation for the history that was to follow. One of the coordinates is the location of a Peralta Mine covered up in a canyon that is quite rich. What is inside that mine is a gate that leads to a second coordinate we posted that shows the entrance to the library of Oz. Always found it fascinating that folks never re-visited those coordinates in light of new information. You see Late was not late he was in fact very early.

You should take the time to understand the Tucson Artifacts. Their relationship to the library is so clear that almost anyone can see it if they look. The language, the efforts of two scribes are unmistakable. The symbol O is so critical to the artifacts to see it and understand it is the beginning of understanding that the artifacts are the most important artifacts ever found in the New World. They are the key to understanding a completely new history of the world.

Anyway hope things are well with you. A tale? Nope. Just truth in its most basic form. Like the coordinates you have to see what they are telling you before you can understand them.

Oh by the way one of the coordinates was for you personally so perhaps you would understand other things more clearly.

When you posted those coordinates, I was still listening. Uncle Obie had told me about the silver prospect north of his Question Mark claim, now just another hole in the ground. I took the time to examine the Tucson Artifacts, and found them to be no more impressive than the other "facts" associated with the story. The real problem here is that all of the "evidence" screams FRAUD! All of this can be reversed by showing some pictures of the books, as well as some carefully redacted passages showing the language that was used. Don't ask that you give away any secrets, just nibble around the edges of your "proof".

In truth, I would really welcome such a revelation. As I have said before, I am open to such things, but need convincing evidence. Each time you dance around our requests, I admit it puts another brick in the wall. What's out there now is just another story......a good one, but just a story. As I have mentioned before, I could produce a more believable tale about the Aztecs coming from White Sands, N.M. accompanied with various and sundry facts fairly easily.

Since this has never been a contest, I am more than willing to concede the field to you. The Diplodocus, unfortunately, remains a problem.

You sound very much like the Democrats trying to explain why their memo should be released as it was written.

Joe I am beyond shocked at your post. Of all the people, you as a veteran of the Vietnam war, and lived through the cold war, a well read man, to say that. Your statement is in effect saying that Klondike is trying to get the truth out, over the efforts of traitors? Is that what you were trying to imply?

I highly doubt that you will shut off Trump TV and get the facts for yourself, but in the hope that through your love of the published works, that perhaps you will see the truth, I am going to recommend a couple of books for you, .

The Plot to Hack America, by Malcolm Nance. Look up the credentials for Nance too.

The Plot to Destroy America, also by Nance,

Collusion, by Luke Harding

If you read these, quit listening to Trump TV Fox, and put your country before the fricking political party, I am certain that you would never have posted that statement. Country before party. Stop swallowing Russian propaganda. Besides, Trump is no Republican, nor Democrat, he has no true political beliefs, he only believes in self satisfaction. He has said as much out of his own mouth. Maybe you would find this book enlightening as well:

Fire and Fury - by Michael Wolff, keep in mind that the statements are taken from Trump's friends and inner circle, not his enemies.

Now consider that Trump's people had at least 58 known secret contacts with Russians, during and after the campaign, of which ALL were lied about and then later admitted to. And our president has had at least eight (8) secret contacts with Putin since becoming president which we only learned about because the Russian state news media informed us, later admitted to by Trump. Open your eyes Joe. This is not about political parties, it is Russians against Americans. Or do you think Putin is our friend?

One other thing but I remember you telling me, after I had voted for Obama, that within a year I will regret it. Well your prediction came partly true, for within a year after I voted for Trump, I regret it, more than I have ever regretted any thing. You only got the name wrong.

Klondike good lord! You are once again throwing up excuses, avoiding questions, and still trying to send Joe out on a wild goose chase. You are convincing me that your whole tale is in the same class as Aesop's Fables. Put up or shut up. Sorry for being so blunt, but your endless game, which is fooling only yourself, is becoming tiresome. I would recommend that you stop confessing to committing felonies by stealing antiquities and smuggling the relics out of the country. If some federal agent were to read your stuff and take it seriously you will be in jail trying to get out. So please either show some solid proof, as requested, or quit this nonsense and just admit that you are just floating a giant fiction.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, seems there is little hope left.Oroblanco

One of us is listening to a load of bull shit. Only time will tell which one. I have my eyes wide open as that pertains to President Trump. He's an asshole, but he doesn't hate America like President Obama did. I don't assume you don't have your eyes wide open, which only makes your argument that much sadder. You're not alone.

I have no reason to deny watching FOX News. Because of that, I believe I have the upper hand in this discussion. It's called the TRUTH!

Over a year now practically the entire news media has been looking for something to get President Trump impeached. The Democrats have all had their noses up the media's ass, looking for any small pieces of twisted "facts". Collusion is a fable. After all this time, effort and money, they indict 16 Russians for everything.......except collusion. You are so far off base here, your in another stadium.

I'm not stupid, but I can see the writing on the wall. The Democrats are in deep doo-doo here.

Trump 2020. That says it all. The rest is bull shit. Just a bunch of losers. Obama really is a traitor. Hillary and Bill are just small time grifters who made the big time. Trump will be one day viewed as a great American President.

Let`s just say a number of things about Comey and others will be coming out soon that will put a lot of folks in jail and not Trump.

If Trump had not fired Comey a lot of what is coming out perhaps would have stayed hidden. Comey is a damn snake.

Yes President Trump is extremely important to the future of this country and I for one wish him well. His is not perfect, far from it. Yet is seems imperfect people are sometimes the most needed because they see things clearly that others do not. For example President Lincoln.

Obama is an evil thug from Chicago and the Clinton are just petty thieves. Really do hope Clinton is locked up along with Comey and the rest. Keep fingers crossed.

Imagine Roy will not be back. Seems he suffers both Trump and Oz Derangement Syndrome. Sad really in both instances if he could see beyond the illusions he holds most dear quite a world can open up.

Well you are partly right. Joe and I have disagreed on poly-ticks before, but mainly because I am an ex-Republican. It is hardly the basis of our friendship, and we don't like the same flavor ice cream best either. No disagreement over poly-ticks, no matter how passionate, is going to affect our friendship one iota. On the other hand, you are correct that I am done with this thread. You are never, ever going to provide the slightest bit of solid evidence to support your tale here. It has been a spectacular, epic, even MAGNIGICENT waste of time though!

Joe I truly, honestly HOPE that you are right here. Unfortunately the evidence is piling up just like the indictments. Just ask yourself this, if Obama had had 58 secret contacts with the Russians, lied about it over twenty times on national TV, then admitted to all of them later, would you be defending him? If Obama had refused to enact sanctions intended as punishment on Russia for their meddling in our election, would you be defending him? Fox is not even news, it is entertainment and opinion. It is rather a surprise that you both are willing to turn a blind eye to the many, many ties to Russia including the cyber attack on our election processes, which is still ongoing. Especially Joe, for I know of his service in defense of the nation in the most unpopular war in our history.

Actually this thread was played out a ways back. Information was shared, boundaries were established and dialogue was pursued under those conditions. Too much information has been shared not too little. The fact that you have left is good enough, you see because in actuality you were never here.

Not taking the time to understand the Tucson Artifacts and their relationship to the Library of Oz is your choice but don`t blame the lack of study and dedication required to work the details on others. Knowledge begins with questions, answers come later. But those questions have to be balanced by our perception you understand the road ahead. Never believe you were really interested in going down that trail. Others were.

Sad that your mind has been poisoned by the main stream media. You are not along in that problem. One would think you could trust the folks in the media but you have to think for yourself and understand the information that matters. For me, Barack Obama is a Manchurian Candidate that did much to destroy America. Bill and Hllary are just trailor park trash that made the big leagues. Their treason was the most base kind, they sold America out for money. Barry sold the country out because he is a left wing radical. A common thug from Chicago. No more no less.

You will have a cruel wakening when the IG Report from the Justice Department is released. I will make you a predication based on my sources in the Justice Department. Jeff Sessions has already seen portions of the IG Report that show how the traitor Comey and others handled the Clinton Investigaton. He is already interviewing candidates for special prosecutor to re-open the Clinton Investigation. Also there is a secret Grand Jury that has been in play for several months that has been hearing evidence and indictments are being prepared against senior DOJ/FBI officials. All of this will be public in the next 60 days.

Donald Trump is a great person to take on the swamp. Will he win. Hope so. But the evil he is fighting is actually quite frightening. He will be remembered as one of the greatest American Presidents.

Alinsky was one of his hero's. He could not hide it during his tenure in the White House, nor in his life before the presidency. Read President Obama's books, he fairly shouts out Alinsky's message. The evidence was all there, and it's what I tried to warn against. Some/many could not and will not see the truth about the man.

I will give you that it may be me who was being misled, but the truth will.....slowly be revealed. It can't be buried.