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Hospice house is a place where individuals whose days are numbered, go to live out the remaining time of their life. Hospice House’s are also known to do everything possible to make a person’s last days as comfortable and soothing as can be for the patient and family members.

So in actuality, my comparison between a zoo, and specifically a particular zoo and hospice is not really fair. In fact, it is a disservice to Hospice. But I want readers to hone in on the point that unless something is done very soon, the “Hadiqua Abu Jarrah” zoo in Riyadh could be compared as the worse nightmare of a Hospice gone bad.

I urge you to read the excellent article fellow blogger, Layla, wrote on her blog about this zoo and the atrocities that are taking place. Anyone who is an animal activist or simply has a soft spot in their heart for animals can clearly see by the photographs on Layla’s blog that these animals are slowly dying.

Please visit this link which is a petition to the Minister of Wildlife and Riyadh city municipality to shut down this zoo and stop the atrocities taking place to the animals.

93 Responses

This is barbaric. It is a jail, not a zoo. People who hurt defenseless animals are near the lowest of the low, not too far off from murders, rapists and child abusers.

The Scandinavian lady has done a good deed in bringing this to the public’s attention, and Carol too.

Jay

PS: Even so, Layla really needs to get back down to earth and learn about her religion instead of writing such insipid silliness as “Islam teaches kindness toward all living beings including animals”. Obviously non-Muslims and geckos, to name a few, are not living beings. It is this kind of blindness to reality, evident even in a well educated Western convert, that assures that Islam will continue to be both intolerant and aggressive. Lets not let facts ruin a fantasy with harsh facts.

Jay, you got it only half right. Zoos are jails for animals to be exhibited to humans. If we did the same treatment of any zoo to a prison, we’d be accused of barbaric treatment of humans, especially if conjugal visits were permitted and observed by the zoo patrons.
I say the last for a very good reason, visiting the zoo with my two children as youths and it turned out to be mating season for quite a few mammals. The exhibit wasn’t close, it was left open.
Would YOU wish that for you and your spouse? Having other creatures gawking and pointing fingers while you mated, ate, shat or even exhibited flatulence?
Zoos SHOULD be to exhibit AND protect wildlife. Not torture it, not exhibit it mindlessly, but respectfully.
As for your rant about religion, do you swat a fly or squash a spider? If so, you are mindlessly aggressive.
As for Islamic behavior towards animals in the current culture and early culture and most of the rest of the culture (as well as Christian culture), ALL are mindless toward animal tending.
Or do you force your government to cease all factory farms, where animals are treated FAR worse than Jews in concentration camps whist being sent to their deaths?

Now, to give full disclosure, I DO eat meat. Quite a bit of it. I’ve also killed animals for food.
The difference is, I DO respect what I kill for my food. I actually apologize and thank said animal for strengthening myself and my family.
I also treat animals, insects and even plants to the same respect that *I* wish to be treated with, both inside of predation and outside of it.

Interestingly enough, Islamic faith AND Judaism both agree that Satan (on the ANCIENT scrolls, for Judaism), refused to bow down before man and Satan refused, accusing man of being inferior.
You seem, as many Islamic pseudo-scholars and a few scholars, to wish to agree with the Satanic view, man the animal that cannot do better.

Carol, after watching the video, I have a LOT of questions, as I’ve witnessed the same in universally acclaimed humane zoos.
No evidence of retention in the small cage.
No evidence of animal waste present.
No evidence of inhumane treatment, indeed, the handler with the hose calmed the lioness down with the scent of the back of his hand, a technique I’ve personally used with domestic animals when working with them. Any unpleasant experiences after the particular or species scent would be met with hostility, as the scent would meet potential experience.
So, with respect (and knowledge of rather ill educated treatment of animals in Arabian zoos), I’ll withhold judgement.
For, judge not, lest ye be judged.
By the same, harsh candle.

Or, more simply, give MORE evidence.
And THIS, from a guy who saw a Bonobo Chimp in solitary, as the rest were NOT Bonobo.
And a dog in the zoo, alone…

Hi, I agree, it is awful the way these animals are kept. Please sign the petition. I have posted the link on the Facebook pages of the International Fund for Animal Welfare and the World Wildlife Fund page. Hopefully this will reach a wider audience and reach the 5,000 signatures needed.

I think the most important thing here is helping these animals whatever your personal opinion about islam, saudis, arabs or western converts is! We need more signatures and to raise international awareness about it.
Everyone with even an ounce of empathy in their soul can see these animals are suffering.

Sorry but you are nuthun’ but an ultra pseudo-apologist for muslims … a true blue islamophiliac. Right or Wrong My Islam. Right or Wrong My Qatari Family. Right or Wrong My Saudi Family. Right or Wrong My Muslims.

And sometimes you get confused (and confuse others) as to which family you really adopted: Qatari or Saudi. Or vice versa. Make up your mind, will ya? Stop telling fairy tales. Just living in Qatar for a few years does not make you an expert on all things islam or on all things muslim or on all things arabs or on all things zoos, or on all things (fill in the blank here) ….. .

You already have a long history here on this blog of describing your drug addictions, sexual perversions, your impotence, body functions/secretions, blah blah blah. And the list goes on.

One more thing, please please do engage your brain before mouthing off. Or at least make an effort. Thank you.

I’ve never visited the zoo in Riyadh, but there is one here in Jeddah where the animals look sick, malnourished and seem to beg passersby to set them free.
This particular zoo was supposed to be shut down years ago, but is still open. And the horrible treatment of the poor animals unfortunate enough to be there still persist.
In Islam, we are taught that there are severe
penalties to be paid for those that treat animals poorly. It seems that some just won’t learn. 😦

I guess such sensitive trade must operate under a licence issued by the government!! So, what are the minimum criteria for running a Zoo in terms of qualifications, animal welfare, their habitat, environment, suitability, food quality, hygiene etc list goes on.
Surely, it doesn’t take a specialist to notice the insane behaviour of the wild animals trapped in cages with no resemblance what so ever to their original habitat. It doesn’t take a genius to testify that imprisoning a Pack Animal like Hyena is cruel beyond humanity.
Why people wish to take youngsters to such a place just to witness animals behaving rather strangely, bored out of their soles and perhaps somehow dangerous or suicidal.
Operating a sophisticated trades with minimum criteria !! it all reminds me of the dental practices operating on the pavement in India; surgery services with crude instrument – take it if you wish but at your own peril.
Somehow we also loosing the focus, often human being need to be reminded that we too are part of the food chain; we do not own it and must be aware of consequences of tampering too much with the nature. For example, the Great Crested Newt is identified for playing an important role for the environment hence they are crowned as King of Bio-Diversity. It’s a shame that human being bulldozed the land driving all type of creatures out of their natural habitat just to make more urban development, buildings, roads, bridges, motorways and the rest; the world soon turns into a concrete jungle. Then when the Mother Nature fight back we all wonder why severe flooding of the cities and tornados are regular occurrence.
Let’s not talk about the environment, damage to the Ozone, the consequences of icecap melting, various chemical found their ways to our food & drink consumables and its relation to various cancers recently known to mankind. However, only consider this – if the oxygen level in our environment drops down average by 2 points then more likely half population of the earth will die instantly by suffocation with other half feeling seriously ill; just work out the sensitivity of the issue !!
Yes, that is how we are digging our own graves only due to human’s utter ignorance. This where the respect come in, respect for the animal, respect for the environment that way we may perhaps manage to stay on earth for a little longer !!
So, why do we have to look into to Quran and Hadith for every simple thing!? Then find nothing in Quran and perhaps something irrelevant / weak in Hadith consequently the whole issue gets white washed.
Seriously – Genetically Modified Food, Cloning, Exploring Deep Space (Cosmology), Environmental Science, Drug test and Experimenting on Animals, Ozone, Worlds Economical Crises, Dealing with Traffic, Advancement of the Science and Media, Modern living …..etc can’t find relevant answer in Hadith ?! then brushed aside or ignored – but the problem will not go away.
Let’s see the wood from the tree, “what goes around comes around” miss treating animal, environment (Mother Nature) because we cannot find the appropriate Moral & Ethics to contain our destructive superiority conflict could have a grave consequences.
Let’s think, be accountable, act responsibly then the Allah / God will be pleased with us all. We all God’s creatures regardless of colour, create, gender etc – Acting like human being regardless of which part of the world we come from is the key.

Thank you for the expose on inhumane treatment of animals in the Riyadh zoo. I am sure the same is true in Jeddah or elsewhere in the kingdom. From my extensive travels in the third world, one finds the same cruelty to animals; which really truly breaks one’s heart.

Just a suggestion: In addition to involving saudi ministry of wildlife, municipality of riyadh, world wildlife fund, etc., how about involving People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals or PETA. It is the largest animal rights organization in the world, with more than 3 million members and supporters. I know they are a little zany and radical at times, but they have been extremely effective in publicizing/showcasing cruelty to animals, both private and public.

I have already emailed PETA the links to the articles from both Carol’s and Laylah’s blogs ….

sheerazy, on June 12, 2012 at 3:06 pm said: ” …. So, why do we have to look into to Quran and Hadith for every simple thing!? Then find nothing in Quran and perhaps something irrelevant / weak in Hadith consequently the whole issue gets white washed. …. Let’s think, be accountable, act responsibly then the Allah / God will be pleased with us all. We all God’s creatures regardless of colour, create, gender etc – Acting like human being regardless of which part of the world we come from is the key ….

Wow, what a beautiful statement, Sheerazi! Wish there were more commonsensical muslims/human beings like you out there ….

I have noticed the same also. These so-called “religionists” run to their “holy books” and “hadith” to get an answer for just about everything. This applies to ALL religions, not just islam.

Then the “other side” gets into the act and goes verse/hadith fishing and brings back half a dozen verses/hadiths to prove their point. The result, like you said Sheerazi, is pure stalemate and the infighting/fitna continues. A lot of things are commonsensical. Like treating each other humanely and kindly …. applies both to humans and animals.

@PETA

I disagree with ExM. PETA turns off and has turned a lot of people off with their tactics here in the US and other western countries. Besides, I don’t think saudis would allow PETA anywhere near their borders. PETA may be able to do cyber-jihad on this issue but then again it will harden saudis’ stance more and more and then forever more :)-

Why does any subject have to turn in to a religion bashing party? That just goes to show the shallow mindedness and intolerance of the atheists present on these forums. Can’t we all just agree on this being a problem without militant behavior?

X-moozlum, Sorry but PETA is a totally evil animal abusing society. It only exists to bolster the megalomania of it’s founder, the self proclaimed ”press slut” Ingrid Newkirk, Who makes millions out of PETA. They support and encourage criminals and arsonists.
Oh, yes, and they kill more than 90% of the pets given to them to be ”rescued”. It’s cheaper to kill them then to find them new homes.

Please, if you love animals, never give a pet to PETA!
They don’t care for puppies and kittens, they kill them. That’s what they mean when they talk about ”Animal liberation”
They kill the pets in the back of the vans they pick them up in, any pets, old, puppy, they dump them in trashbags or leave them rotting in dumpsters, these people do NOTHING for animals, they are sect, out for money!

You need to be informed when supporting any organization, just like you have to treat religions. You need to think rationally before making decision. Just as with religions.

Kareem, isn’t Islam a way of life? isn’t it everything? The law, the way your society is put together. isn’t Saudi Arabia An islamic country? Ruled by sharia? And look what happens? Crimes against humanity, animal abuse, and nobody seems to do anything about it. certainly not the Islamic government.
So how can you keep religion out of these atrocities? In islamic countries? Why isn’t your religion strong enough, or ethical enough, to make sure animals (and women and children) are treated in an ethical manner?
What’s wrong here?
The religion.
Read the Quran, if you take out the non-valid obrigated verses it does not contain much in the way of ethical treatment of either animals or humans (including women, who are also human)

As long as Islam is a way of life, is invoked in every small part of a society, then any just criticism of that society is of course a criticism of that religion’s failing. UNderstand that you cannot complain about the criticism of the religion responsible for evil done in it’s domain.

@Afke: Yes, Islam is a way of life. And yes, Sharia is supposedly practiced in Saudi Arabia. And I’m aware that human rights violations and animal abuse exist in Muslim countries just as much as they do in non-Muslim or non-religious countries for that matter. But do you have any knowledge what Islam says about those who abuse animals?
Perhaps with all the cherry picking you do concerning Islam, you skip over all that. I guess the positive things in Islam or any other religion interests you not. I just wish all you atheists on here wouldn’t be so pig-headed. You don’t gain any respect that way. There’s no reason whatsoever to turn this into an Islam bashing party. But I guess that’s what intolerance brings about.

Thank you for considering me hallowed.
Come on, just acknowledge you made a silly comment!
And how do you know that the majority of PETA-adherents are atheist anyway? Did you ask each and every one of them? You made it up! I bet you never even heard of PETA until X-mooslum mentioned it. You thought you could then use it for a cheap dig towards atheists.
And did you notice I consider PETA a sect? Like religions?

Come on, if you want to defend your chosen religion (btw, I bet you didn’t choose it, it just happened that your parents were Muslim and indoctrinated you into it, had they been Christian you wouldhave been some crazy evangelist, or if they had been Mormon you would now be Mormon, or whatever) then why don’t you explain to us why it is that women are treated as dirt in muslim countries, why women don’t have equal rights, why zoo’s such as these cane exist for years, why children can be sold into ”marriage” and then raped to death without the killer being taken to court?
Explain how this makes Islam a good religion?

Rather than another religious debate and bickering, could this thread be used to post useful suggestions on how to help the animals?
Who else to contact?
Where to relocate them, how?
Riyadh zoo seems like the only option, but it’s not ideal in any way. Well at least there they could walk around, find shelter and get a proper diet and vet checked.

Thanks for the info on PETA Aafke, I had actually been trying to contact them (and Ingrid) but nobody replied. So I guess that’s good.
What do you suggest as a better option?

Unfortunately, this is part of life. The strong abuse the weak. the strong may be human or country or even animal. And the weak can be human or animal or nation. If you drive 1500 km north west of this zoo you will see the largest prison in the world or may be in history, and the prisoners comprise all kind of life, human animal etc. However, defending the defendless is an hournable

Here is a website that gives a little more on PETA. ASPCA investigated them and cleared them of the charges of animal cruelty. You can read about their organization. PETA does draw attention to animal cruelty but they can be fanatically at times in their tactics which often times hurts the cause anyway.

I can’t see any harm in bring in a fanatical organization into a country that is known for being fanatical. Could be a match made in Heav…….oh, I won’t go there as that doesn’t exist (haha) but it could also spawn a whole new organization that makes hell look good (oh wait that doesn’t exist either).

I am enjoying my witty self. Excuse me I am being narcissistic and somewhat vain but that is okay I am enjoying this.

On the more serious note, any attention highlighting a wrong doing is good attention; it is only the action that one must watch out for to ensure that it has a beneficial effect upon the animals. Remember good intentions are sometime the pathway to hel……..(oh that’s right, that place is a fantasy).

I can’t help myself the devil made me do it. Oops I did it again. (hahaha) 😀

yeah right bigstick, Why not send a couple of women to KSA and have them strip naked and protest in Sahara mall.
Peta has been evil for years, their little vans are kill-vans, most animals they can lay their bloody hands on do not survive.

Layla, it is really difficult, in other countries you can alert the authories. And most countries ahve sanctuaries where zoo and other exotic animals are kept in an appropriate manner and where they get the right care. So you would have these people coming in and take the animals away to a good place.

Maybe the Audubon institute could help?

You could contact them but in a country like Saudi Arabia, which is hermetically closed and run by a small group who obviously don’t care, except for keeping up a facade, I don’t see that any outside organisation could be of help at all.

I think I now understand why you are so be
Bitter Afke. The absents of children in your life must really haunt you with regrets. That why you have resorted to a life of attacking others and just being a troll. Hmmm….

Waw, you’re getting pretty personal and emotional here! You don’t know me, I do not make personal attack on you, I made a few well founded criticisms of your religion. none of which you have answered here. Instead of taking up the challenge you sink down to level of personal attack.
Sad.

I have kids, married, working on my second career and I am not a fan of religion, in fact I consider religion to one of the worst belief systems ever inflicted and forced upon mankind. Think of a 17 year old’s family being killed then immediately raped by a prophet or a prophet tearing up an old woman or enslaving others, ensuring women are treated poorly and mentally turned into a sex toy or external sex organ (awrah) , creating the whole body mutilation of a guy’s penis (the hated foreskin), witch trials, inquistions, death of homosexuals, death of heretics, death of others (not of your belief, or of your belief but not of your sect), death of women who are raped, death of slaves who want to escape the religious love (also known as brutality) of a religious owner, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, I could just keep on going like the energizer bunny on this as there is so much hate, death, destruction all centered around the fail system of religion.

Really hasn’t helped animals much either. There are actually passages in the OT that god commands man to killed all the men, women, children, infants, including unborn, and animals.

You know God has love for man and animalkind when he kills everyone on earth except Noah’s family and one set of pair different animals. All else dies. Yes, with such fatherly domestic abuse/child abuse one only wonders why man isn’t more screwed up.

By hey, that is what religious call FATHERLY LOVE.

Back on the animal situaion. I still say any highlighting of the situation even from PETA or any other World Organization on the plight of animals is a good thing. Again putting atrocities in the limelight is not the problem it is the action that follows which must be watched to ensure that the animals are in fact given proper care and good homes. Media is alway a good source to follow up on this particular those who are animal adovocates.

@Afke. That was not a personal attack. It was merely conclusion I came to based on a little observance. If I had made a personal attack on you, you would know.
On the other hand, when you insult my beliefs, putting across the idea that I am some how stupid or idiotic for believing what I do, that is a personal attack. Even if you don’t think so.

Yes it is my opinion just like your belief in your religion is your opinion. So long as I don’t have to adhere to it nor be forced to believe in it or its customs of discrimination forced on my family then I have no problem with your belief but once you force another person to conform then we have problems as I believe your belief is based on a discriminatory manmade political mass control hated doctrine.

Now if you want to discuss the historical aspects of religion I have no problems with that and find it fascinating on the dynamics of how it shaped history and some of the positive traditions that it brings such as when celebrations bring families together, etc. such as Christmas, EID, Ramadan, Hanukah, Easter, Passover. However, understand that these traditions are celebrations in cultural awareness and a celebration of positive aspects of family that stemmed from religion as not everything that comes from religion is completely bad however this is not my endorsing any belief in a bankrupt dogma of Abrahamic Religions.

And if any more proof were needed that the illegal sale of wild and endangered species is taking place in S.A. I have just read this on expat blog Riyadh.

“We breed and sell only our very young baby cubs to experienced and loving families. We have cheetah cubs, lion cubs and tiger cubs now available to offer.We have bengal, siberian and white tiger cubs and all our cubs are up to date on all vet checks and health record is up to date.Our baby cubs are easy to get along with even for beginners as we take of time to provide any buyer with a care sheet to help them enjoy raising the young cubs.If interested in any of our cubs then send an email binsalif@gmail.com”

That’s just it, I’m not here to force my beliefs on you or anyone else. And that’s why you never see me instigate these little bickering matches on this forum. But it ticks me off where I come here to discuss a particular topic and it gets derailed on to the tracks of religion bashing. It’s a behavior I find quitejuvenile. You have your beliefs and I mine. Doesn’t mean we can’t all get along.

Now how can we go about finding a solution to end the suffering of these animals? Because I’ve witnessed horrible treat of not just the animals in the zoos here, but a lot of pet shops as well. Would you believe some shops have certain animals living of of rice?

Kareem,
I did not call you stupid, I said you are only Muslim by chance because your parents indoctrinated you into the belief. If your parents had been of another religion you would have been adhering to another religion.

Making such observations like you did is personal. Drawing (faulty) conclusions about me and my state of mind and happiness is personal.
You need to learn the meaning of the word ”personal”. Get a dictionary.
But granted you do not understand the meaning of the word ”personal”, still does not absolve you from bad behavior. It is bad behavior to make up fantasy stories about other people and attack them with it, (strawman fallacy), use it to get away from discussing real problems in your religion you are not willing to face is cowardly.

So, Kareem, if you are actually in KSA right now you are in an excellent position to actually get up and do something constructive here.
You could set up and animal rescue program, you could set something up to educate people on how to treat animals humanely. You could not only set up a website, but as a man, and unlike Layla, who is a woman, you are free to move about, drive a car and conduct business and set up a foundation, or institute.

Do you have groups that look into animal abuse? Do you have organizations that protest against abuse of this nature? Do you have media that can shine the light on the deplorable conditions? Are you and others willing to demostrate against this abuse? Are you will to take the consequences that come along with demostrations? Is there a faction within Saudi society that will not tolerate this? Can this be done without international help as Saudi is a closed society and needs to address their own problems that allow abuse in such cases?

Do you have media willing to show this or are they running scared unable to bring injustices such as this out?

These are all starting points. You need to know your resources, abilities, limitations and opposition.

Hope I helped. The initiative must be taken up in Saudi by Saudi people and stopped otherwise it will fail. 🙂

Now on the subject of religion you may not be forcing your personnal beliefs but Saudi is and that is why people always goes back to religion as this is a forum on Saudi. Saudi stands for and practices a form of Islam that is a distortion and implies it to the slavery, abuse, brutality of many particular the weaker such as women and children. As long as Saudi is in the business of pushing their form of religion it will always come down to this point as what Saudi government and theology stands for is considered by many to be a religion of hate and discrimination.

The way you write the things you do, that’s exactly what you are saying. I read more between the lines. You may not notice what you are actually saying because hate and indifference is what fuels your words.

I have my beliefs and you have your own. I don’t attack you for your lack of belief, now do I? It’s always you atheist who cry about tolerance and individual rights. Yet, you are the ones who go around attacking people who choose believe in a creator.

If I had a dime for every atheist who randomly come on my youtube account or any other social network just to attack my beliefs, I’d be dirty, filthy, stinking rich.

I don’t have a problem with you are anyone else on here being atheist. That’s your choice. As being a Muslims and choosing to believe in a creator is mine. I could care less about what you want to believe or how you choose to lead your short life in this world.

I fail to understand how my beliefs or anyone else’s is causing your harm. If me being a Muslims is harming you in any way, be it physically or mentally, let me know. Other wise, give it a rest.

Now let’s focus on the subject at hand. Which organizations, if any-can help put an end to the suffering of these animals and not accept a bribe to look the other way.

@bigstick.
I do the best I can to help stop the abuse of animals. There aren’t any organizations that look into animal abuse here in Saudi Arabia that I know of.

And it’s not just Saudi Arabia Spain doesn’t really seem to keen on ending their barbaric practice of bull fighting. And then you have Korea and their torture of dogs and cats, as they believe that an animal that has felt a certain amount of fear and pain taste better.

There is just way too much that needs to be looked into and put a stop to. I’m currently searching for some organization that might be interested in approaching this issue seriously. I’m sure it will not be an easy search.

Women can do a lot if their owners support them. However, they cannot drive cars. And if their owners do not support them, and allow them, and sign official papers for them, women can do nothing. Women are considered minors, and the rules make them into slaves.
You as a man do not have these restrictions. You tell us there are no organisations for the welfare of animals, you can set up the first one.
Stop trying to get away from difficult subjects.
Are you willing to act on your words?

Yes, and how you, as a man and as you claimed an animal lover who would like to see change could for example try to start up an animal sanctuary, projects to educate people on humane treatment of animals, you could set up an organisation.
Like I suggested three times now.
Are you a man? Who acts on his convictions? Or a windbag; big words no action….

@Afke:
Only rich women have drivers? Now if know that you are totally ignorant of the situation in Saudi Arabia. I know of many families who have drivers for their wives and daughters. And they are far from being rich. I wonder how a lot of them can even afford a driver, let alone,a maid.

So, I guess you have just proven that you know nothing about Saudi Arabia other than what you hear from others or from what revolves around your little world

And with that, you just lost a little more credibility in your words.

Oh yeah, the traffic is bad hear because the men don’t know how to drive. But it’s not going to get any better if thousands of fresh women get behind the wheel.

On top of that, there are just way too many cars on the road as it is. About 25, 000 cars sell a month in K.S.A. They need to be taking cars off the roads, not putting more on.

You might try finding some people with Wasta in Saudi that can bring atttention to the plight of these animals.

Here is a question if women get rid of their drivers mostly foreign and drive themselves how are they putting any additional burden on the traffic as now the foreign drivers are not needed? In addtion, familes who need this money are spared having to spend monies that they really can’t afford. There are also many who could drive, drop of their husband, do shopping, get the kids to and from appointments and school. Next, you cannot feel like a Queen or a princess when you are forbidden from doing something that even an 8 year old boy is allowed to do instead you are left with being less mature and capable than your own male child. It is called, sad, there is nothing liberating nor VIP like in that. It also tells you that you as a female how society see’s your worth and abilities. Again, Sad.

Kareem,you are right.its always the atheist who would initiate meaningless bickerings about religion.personally,i hv never seen Muslims going to atheist websites and start a tirade about religion.i hv never seen Muslims here initiating any objection to other beliefs or non believers way of thinking.you would think people who claim to be critical thinkers and intelligent would prefer avoiding childishly-like disputes and catty fights but we have a saying “empty tins makes the loudest noise” so i think this applies to these kind of people. I can’t imagine how they would treat me in person,since i am a Muslim and love Islam.

Rosemary,you are an extremely malicious person with your spiteful remark to wzrd.you are a hypocrite,yes i m going personaal here,because you would attack someone for ‘sticking up’ for Islam nd which to u,thi means tht person is an Islam apologist.but its ok for remarks tht ,to be blunt, are so screwed up bout Islam. If anything,wzrd actually knows whT the hell he’s talking bout while te others just spew idiocy with issues they’ve never even seen.most of these Islam or Saudi critics hv never lived in Saudi/lived with Muslims/know personally the lives of Muslim women. I covered all tht,i live with Saudi,am a Muslim women,live breath think Islam and guess i know more about wht these people seem to think they know enough to criticize. The world u live in is far from perfection and guess what,our world is different and so are our values,we not trying to measure our values and way of life by your westerk standards.not everything has to follow suit the western standards of right and wrong.thts what makes the world,a conglomeration of different people with different values.but one thing is for sure,no group of people accept intolerance.if you know an iota about Islam,you ll see that we Muslims are ordered to be kind to everyone,Muslims or not.i dare u to deny about the verse in the Qur’an tht commands this.and don’t be an imbecile no more to misquote versus tht tqlks about WAR!Coz until now,i hv never seen a war where soldiers kiss one another instead of “swiping the necks”.

Kareem or Whatever His Name Is, on June 12, 2012 at 10:22 pm said: And I’m aware that human rights violations and animal abuse exist in Muslim countries just as much as they do in non-Muslim or non-religious countries for that matter

Given Islam’s violent history and the unfavorable contrast of its oppressive practices against 21st century values, Kareem and his ilk (fellow muslims) are hard-pressed to repackage their faith in the modern age. Some of its leading apologists have come to rely on tricks involving semantics and half-truths that are, in turn, repeated by novices and even those outside the faith.

Here are some more idiotic quotes for the millenniums that exposes some of these games and helps truth-seekers find their way through the maze of disingenuous (often blatantly false) claims about Islam and its history.

Bigstick:
Answering your question. When the women do get the chance to drive here, the will no longer need their drivers, I know that. But those same drivers will add more cars on to the street by getting jobs as taxi drivers, drivers for companies or driving around the elderly.
So that translates to even more cars on the streets.
A lot of drivers even end up buying their own cars and working as a jitney.
I’m not sure if you have any idea about the traffic in Saudi Arabia at present. Jeddah especially. But it isn’t pretty. 😦

@X-moozlum:
Are you really an x-Muslim or is it just a screen name you use in order to make the lies you spit out seem to carry more merit than they actually do, somehow giving the false impression that you are an expert on the matter?

If ask about the most basic teachings of Islam, you’d probably have no clue, and would have to make a quick search in google to find something to help you. Most likely providing the wrong information getting confused with the different practices and beliefs of the sects that exist out there.
I’ve delt with many such individuals on a number of occasions. And I’ve learnt to take anything from a person with such a user name with a grain of salt.

I bet you don’t even know any Muslims besides the ones you see on your television set.

That’s just it,some topic about pitiful animals turn to yet again,an Islamic bashing session.the hypocricy of these wretched groups of hate mongering ilk,so call x moslem included are beyond pathetic. Laylah,i pray you find a wqy to help those animals,once i m back to KSA,i ll inquire around too.

Rosemary, I’ve been busy, so I was unable to respond to your tirade.
My “drug addictions”?! You are the very first human in history to call someone taking blood pressure and Motrin an addict!
You seem to wish that anyone who has a different world view or opinion to not have the right of freedom of expression!
I’m in no way an apologist for any faith, creed or culture. I only reflect a wish for balance and tolerance for that which is different.
Indeed, as I stated previously in this blog, I am not a Muslim, Christian or other faith, but more of a deist.
I AM a strict Constitutionalist, I firmly believe in the principles outlined in the US constitution. That freedom of religion and speech thing being quite important to me.
As for “confusion” to familial “adoption”, you are the only person on the planet confused, as I’ve never mentioned any Qatari family dealings at all, only a singular Saudi family.
As for Mrs B being “my mother”, no. Not at all. My mother died a bit over a decade ago.
However, you seem to wish that all have YOUR opinion and experiences, all others are open to derision. That is an unfortunate world view in the extreme!

X-moose, that you use that particular website as an example, one being actively tracked by law enforcement as a known hate site is interesting!

Abe, I heartily agree! I’d complain, but I’d be a hypocrite, as I tend to go off topic as well.
I also agree that Saudis SHOULD form organizations to protect animals and fellow humans. That said, freedom of association isn’t quite present in many nations of this world, at least in American ways. In many nations, associations that upset the status quo are far from accepted by the government.
That leaves two potential approaches. One can replace that government, which isn’t going very well in Syria or Bahrain right now.
One can find social/cultural/religious frameworks to effect change.
As for driving in the Arabian region, my wife absolutely refused to drive in Qatar, as the highways were more like a junkyard derby than a highway that we know of! The same is true throughout the region, indeed, traffic accidents are the #1 cause of death in all Arabian nations. Adding neophytes to the road is probably the worst notion until that is addressed first, lest one add further to the carnage on the highways. And when I say neophytes, I mean male and female new drivers!

We as humans are cruel beings.. why do we have this unnatural urge to lock animals in a cage and gawk i don’t know… if one wants to gawk why not do it in their natural setting — go into their zone an dgauk if you dare 🙂

As for saudi women and driving…lesser said the better, why can’t the govt be secure enough to give them the option is beyond me.. give them the choice, if they want let them drive, if not let them reign as queens with a driver .. the key being choice, let them choose if they want to brave the traffic or can afford the driver . that’s the difference between KSA and other countries islamic or otherwise – lack of choice. A small group of population regulates how a larger group should behave and bases it on religious edicts…
Once they give everyone free choice, religion will eveolve by itself, what’s good will stay and what’s bad will go…

unfortunately the movers and shakers of ksa don’t seem to want this, till they do nothing will happen – absolutely nothing.

wzrd1, on June 14, 2012 at 4:23 pm said: “X-moose, that you use that particular website as an example, one being actively tracked by law enforcement as a known hate site is interesting!”

Wzrd1,

Talk is cheap! Could you provide bonafide documentation that “religion of peace” website is being “actively tracked” by “law enforcement” as a “known hate site”. Or are you confused, as usual, and meant to say qatari or saudi or malaysian or wzrd1 law enforcement agencies? :)-

If you can’t provide any solid documentation, then you are either an opportunistic liar or udderly confused or both. Let’s see some bonafide documentation please …

For starters, Websense lists the site as an extremist site. That isn’t law enforcement, but shows the site is a matter of concern.
I know it’s tracked because I had to create a hole in our Websense filters for CMPC, who track extremist sites of all sorts for both law enforcement and the DoD.
If they’re not being tracked, why request that site (and others) to be opened for that intelligence collection center?

Then why in the hell did you say “law enforcement” if you knew it wasn’t law enforcement agency? Almost pulled a fast one until you got called on it. Shame on you!

As you well know, there are folks out there with all kinds of so-called private “monitoring” websites, both on the right and the left, with no relationship whatsoever with law enforcement. I can set up a “monitoring” website tomorrow and put all the muslim websites and classify them as “hate” webites. These kind of websites have no credibility whatsoever, either on the right or on the left.

So next time, do engage your brain before yapping your fingers. Thank you ….

I surfed the Websense website, which has nothing to do with categorizing “hate websites” . Copied below is what they say in “about us”:

Websense, Inc. (NASDAQ: WBSN), a global leader in unified Web, data, and email content security, delivers the best security for modern threats at the lowest total cost of ownership to tens of thousands of enterprise, mid-market, and small organizations around the world. Distributed through a global network of channel partners and delivered as software, appliances, and Security-as-a-Service (SaaS), Websense unified content security helps organizations take advantage of powerful new communication, collaboration, and Web 2.0 business tools while protecting from advanced persistent threats, preventing the loss of confidential information, and enforcing Internet use and security policies. Websense is headquartered in San Diego, Calif., with offices around the world.”

Wzrd1, I don’t think you are confused. I think you are a master liar who make things and stories up as you go along.

CMPC is a government organization. The Combined Media Processing Center. It supplies both the DoD and law enforcement communities with intelligence from various media sources, to include the internet.
The bulk of monitored sites are Islamic militant sites, due to the current war, but they also monitor other hate groups and sites globally, to include inside of the US.
Try learning about what you decry as private before YOU begin yapping with your fingers.
Key points, CMPC is a US Government center. They had requested particular sites, including thereligionofpeace.com.
Websense is a private company, true, but it is a web content filtering provider for corporate and government users.

Pity you didn’t look further, such as the web filtering categories. Drill down through them, you’ll find, under baseline categories, “Racism and Hate – Sites that promote the identification of racial groups, the denigration or subjection of groups, or the superiority of any group. ”
You are the one who doesn’t know what is true and untrue, not I, who dealt with the web filter on a daily basis as part of my duties.

Lol! Dude, I don’t think I’m ready to be locked up in a dark and dank prison. But anyway, before we can get Saudis interests in the rights of animals, we have to get them to recognize the rights of other human beins.

Still it would bring lots of attention, even more if they were just clothed in proper bicycle gear. However, I am glad you recognize that they have a long way to go on human rights to include women being the persons in charge of their movement, lives and future as they are capable human beings.

That is great news. Personally I am rooting for Kareem to find some women to go out on bicycles with pictures of these caged animals to protest their treatment as well as women’s treatment. I think it is best as it will maximize your protestors as it hits numerous items that need to be addressed in Saudi. Maybe you know of some volunteers that are willing to ride bikes. 😈

Really, though congratulations on getting the coverage.

@Kareem:

I just can’t help myself as the imp in me is coming out………..OH, wait they don’t exist either. hehehe hahaha 🙂

I salute you girl, you championed the idea, for fearlessly setting up the petition followed by the debate at the AB’s Forum to bring awareness and gather support. It goes to show how much a girl can do to alert, to inform and raise consciousness and realization using logics, facts and figures. We noticed your politeness for instantly apologising to the other party who forewarned you about the group not worth contacting due to their poor reputation etc.

However, with regards to the AB.s Forum & your Thread
Let me apologise on behalf of an individual whom seems not fully aware of what Forum is about hence high jacked the idea by getting seriously personal with other, calling everyone names, levelling accusation i.e. juvenile behaviour, mindless etc etc
For his benefit, Forum is about a group of individual ideally from all walks of live, with no fear or affiliation, expressing opinion freely without being humiliated by others. Everyone is entitled to say what he / she feels about the subject however ONLY the Moderator or the person Chairing the Discussion/ Forum could warn any individual for drifting away from the issue. Unfortunately we witnessed some un-plight and Shoevinistic behaviours by someone whose confused / unaware of Forum for Not being a place to bend backwards and sing praises.

Ideally if a feeble individual wish to meet group of like minded people fearing reform, patting each other on the back to gain strength for basically championing nothing, for encouraging the idea that the best practice is business as usual, fear of this and fear of that … then best place is a Church, Synagogue or Musk etc certainly not Forum. Let’s understand, observe the rules and refrain from the urge that to bullying or beating for submission works. Democracy has not got the east and west translation.If you can’t stand the heat keep away from the kitchen.

Anyway, I’m trying to get some people involed in trying to at lest approach this matter. But in all truth, Saudis seem to have little concern of animals and their well being.
They also say that a prince owns those zoos. And if that is the case, this will be much more difficult that we thought.

Seriously, their are just some people and countries that shouldn’t be allowed to have zoos. Actually, it would be better if zoos didn’t exist at all.

You know I am having fun with this right? 😀 You can’t deny that this wouldn’t be a tongue wager. Next being put in prision does draw attention to highly charged issues and this would be right up there on highly charged. HEHEHE 🙂

Zoos if done right can be beneficial such as educating the people to the different animal life, their importance, having respect for the animal and ensuring that the species needs to be protected particular when man starts to encroach upon their environment. However, you are correct that their are some countries and people who don’t deserve zoos. To me Saudi is such a place as they first have to discover human rights.

Kareem, I disagree that all zoos not exist, as that would eliminate breeding programs for many endangered animals. But, zoos SHOULD be regulated for the welfare of the animals, not to be a gawking place for humans to gawk at the animals. Displays should be educational about the animal, its natural habitat, its behavior and other facts to teach the viewer about the creatures they share the planet with.

Perhaps you could start small, with groups of people having bumper stickers outlining the plight of the animals and faith based messages on the treatment of animals, as the culture revolves around faith overall. Larger magnetic placards for vehicle doors and rears would be even better. In short, an education program at the grass roots level.
If people learn to treat animals better, it frequently follows that they’ll treat their fellow humans better, as only the most dense would fail to notice animals being treated better than humans!
Some attention by Al Jazeera might help as well, bringing attention of all GCC states to the widespread problem.

Feyfa, in Jeddah has a similar situation with animals in poor conditions. Yet, apparently people go to look at the animals- and people also dump their animals there when they decide not to care for them (some illegally imported of course). What Saudi needs is a rehabilitation center- where people can view animals PROPERLY being taken care of and hopefully being prepped for better homes/refuges. It would also provide a safe dumping ground, rather than the desert for idiots who imported animals they shouldn’t have (yes, this happens too. Until they crack down on importing exotic animals- there will be a dumping problem. Witness our crocodile population in the Jeddah lake. This solution would have animals better taken care of, and people better educated. I’ve been trying to pitch it- haven’t found a taker yet.

I was not even aware of the zoos in Jeddah. I’m not surprised by the dumping of animals in the desert or elsewhere. I stopped being surprised on what kind of species I may encounter in Saudi since you do see “exotics” from all over the world.

It is not only Saudis though who are guilty of dumping an animal. Expats have also been known to do this when it gets near time to leave the Kingdom and especially if they have not found a new home for the pet. ):

I doubt they will but if they do the USA isn’t such a bad place to live. I have never figured out what issues you have with Finland. You could always email me that info, if you don’t want it on the blog.

I think Finland is a great country, they make their own moonshine, and in music shops when you look under ”local music” they have heavy metal, death metal etc!
Not to mention all the formula one racing drivers.
Must be a fascinating country.