30 million seems like a lot, but 12.5 guaranteed is the number I'm worried about. That seems a lot more reasonable.

I can't wait to see the other details though, to see how this will effect the cap long term.

I agree. How much of that is defered to years 4 and 5??

Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:23 am

Dphins4me

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

degs wrote:

I agree. How much of that is defered to years 4 and 5??

I'm hoping its really a 3 yr deal for 15 million, but I high doubt that.

Its probably a 3 yr deal for 18 & if so, Miami seriously over paid for him. Seriously. He is not that good, but either way Miami paid a lot of cash for a middle of the road Wr. 6 TDs in 4 yrs. Not worth a truck load of cash.

If Hartline is worth this, then I hate to see what a really talented Wr is worth.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:32 am

10acjed

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Dphins4me wrote:

If Hartline is worth this, then I hate to see what a really talented Wr is worth.

Approx 12 mil more annually based on megatron... LOL his gar money is less then a top WR makes annually...

Wallace will be 15 annual, he turned down 11 from Pitt so if people expect 12 they should take the next few weeks off. I am figuring Wallace gets at least 5 year 65 mil...

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:50 am

Big Dave

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

RotoWorld's take on it isn't complimentary, but we saw Hartline keep many drives alive last year with some great catches. Pair him up with a legit #1 receiver and I think he finds the end zone more.

Quote:

The $6.15 million annual average is actually a tick less than expected, but GM Jeff Ireland still overpaid. While Hartline's 2012 stat line looks decent on paper -- 74 catches for 1,083 yards -- he needed top-20 targets to do it and accounted for 16.2 percent of his receptions, 23.4 percent of his yards, and 100 percent of his touchdowns in Week 4 at Arizona. (He only scored once all year.) Hartline is just 26 years old, but he's a middling No. 2 NFL receiver lacking true playmaking ability and long-range upside. Particularly if the Dolphins pair him with Mike Wallace, Hartline will likely be overvalued in 2013 fantasy drafts.

RotoWorld's take on it isn't complimentary, but we saw Hartline keep many drives alive last year with some great catches. Pair him up with a legit #1 receiver and I think he finds the end zone more.

Quote:

The $6.15 million annual average is actually a tick less than expected, but GM Jeff Ireland still overpaid. While Hartline's 2012 stat line looks decent on paper -- 74 catches for 1,083 yards -- he needed top-20 targets to do it and accounted for 16.2 percent of his receptions, 23.4 percent of his yards, and 100 percent of his touchdowns in Week 4 at Arizona. (He only scored once all year.) Hartline is just 26 years old, but he's a middling No. 2 NFL receiver lacking true playmaking ability and long-range upside. Particularly if the Dolphins pair him with Mike Wallace, Hartline will likely be overvalued in 2013 fantasy drafts.

Roto has become a little too proud of their opinions lately. & they're critical of most things the Dolphins do but they aren't experts just because they have an opportunity to post a news feed. & i think you're right, Dave. Consider that defenses knew that Hartline was RTs go to & best chance of gain in this offense, & i finid his stats more impressive. & if those defenses won't be able to shade coverage at Hartline over the next 5 years then he could prove to be worth more then we paid.

Keep in mind that we haven't exactly made much use out of him, or other players, with our previous coach(s) or schemes

Good for him . Well deserved. This guy is the kind of meat and potato player every team covets.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:39 am

AQNOR

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Quote:

...

The deal is worth $30.775 million over five years ($6.155 million average), but the more important number is $12.5 million guaranteed ($2.5 million per year). Full details of the contract haven’t been released yet, but Hartline likely received a signing bonus in the neighborhood of $8 million, and his 2013 salary cap number should be in the $3-4 million range. It should leave the Dolphins with about $33 million in salary cap space, giving them enough room to still sign one or two impact free agents, such as receiver Mike Wallace.

Hartline didn’t quite get No. 1 receiver money, but is well-paid for a No. 2. According to the site overthecap.com, Hartline’s $6.155 million ranks 22nd among wide receivers, and the $2.5 million guarantee per year ranks 25th. Hartline’s contract is just under two awarded last offseason:

Hartline is still very young & created a bond with Tannehill as his go to receiver. There is something to be said about a receiver that knows the system, is a class act and works hard. He may not have lit up big numbers with touchdowns, but as Rich pointed out a few over throws and a few drops that number could have easily been 6-8 touchdown catches last season. The guy knows how to get open and run great routes. This is a nice resigning of a key contributor. I would think most Dolphin fans are happy about this move. They had to spend to keep him and reward him and I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he has his best career year yet to show HIS appreciation back and will work even harder.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:39 am

IamPZ

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

I like the signing. Keep on Tannehills security blanket and hope he continues to improve.

The guy was a 4th round pick for a reason... he didn't come into the league as a renowned superstar, but he has been a decent player for us.

I'd still expect them to sign a big name free agent and draft a guy.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:51 am

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

5 year, $30.775 million contract, with $12.5 million in guaranteed money.

His cap number this season will probably be $3 millionish. The $12.5 million in guarantees probably equates to an $8 million signing bonus. So he gets $8 million plus a low base salary. $8 mil amortized over 5 years is $1.6 million a year in cap space.

In year 4, he can be cut for a $3.2 million hit and in year 5 for a $1.6 million hit. I'm sure his cap value those years is significantly higher than the hits the Dolphins will take.

It is essentially a 3-year, $18.775 million deal, unless he continues improving, at which point he would be worth keeping for years 4 and 5.

Just an educated guess...

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:58 am

IamPZ

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Rich wrote:

5 year, $30.775 million contract, with $12.5 million in guaranteed money.

His cap number this season will probably be $3 millionish. The $12.5 million in guarantees probably equates to an $8 million signing bonus. So he gets $8 million plus a low base salary. $8 mil amortized over 5 years is $1.6 million a year in cap space.

In year 4, he can be cut for a $3.2 million hit and in year 5 for a $1.6 million hit. I'm sure his cap value those years is significantly higher than the hits the Dolphins will take.

It is essentially a 3-year, $18.775 million deal, unless he continues improving, at which point he would be worth keeping for years 4 and 5.

Just an educated guess...

I'm not questioning you but have always wondered, how is the roster savings calculated?

Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:02 am

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

IamPZ wrote:

I'm not questioning you but have always wondered, how is the roster savings calculated?

Cap hit minus accelerated cap hit.

So for example, to keep the numbers clean lets do a 4 year, $20 million contract with a $4 million signing bonus.

The signing bonus is a $1 million hit per year (this is the amortization).

That leaves $16 million in base salary.

Let's say the base salary is $4 million every year.

1 - $4 mil2 - $4 mil3 - $4 mil4 - $4 mil

The cap hit is $5 million each year ($1 million amortized bonus + $4 million base salary).

If you cut the player before year 2, the signing bonus is accelerated as dead cap. It accelerates for every year remaining on the contract so the dead cap is $3 million. However, the base salary is $4 million, so you can cut this player, take the $3 million hit in dead cap and remove $4 million off the books for a total cap savings of $1 million.

Granted, base salaries usually escalate, but I kept it flat to make the example easier to explain.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:43 am

jammer

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Also factor in that his cap hits increase when some big contracts come off the books (Dansby, Burnett) and this deal looks even better. Miami can still go shopping for some other quality guys.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:01 am

IamPZ

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Rich wrote:

IamPZ wrote:

I'm not questioning you but have always wondered, how is the roster savings calculated?

Cap hit minus accelerated cap hit.

So for example, to keep the numbers clean lets do a 4 year, $20 million contract with a $4 million signing bonus.

The signing bonus is a $1 million hit per year (this is the amortization).

That leaves $16 million in base salary.

Let's say the base salary is $4 million every year.

1 - $4 mil2 - $4 mil3 - $4 mil4 - $4 mil

The cap hit is $5 million each year ($1 million amortized bonus + $4 million base salary).

If you cut the player before year 2, the signing bonus is accelerated as dead cap. It accelerates for every year remaining on the contract so the dead cap is $3 million. However, the base salary is $4 million, so you can cut this player, take the $3 million hit in dead cap and remove $4 million off the books for a total cap savings of $1 million.

Granted, base salaries usually escalate, but I kept it flat to make the example easier to explain.

Ah... easy enough. I can see how it would get complicated with the increasing salaries and such but still pretty easy to understand. Thanks!

Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:08 am

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

IamPZ wrote:

Ah... easy enough. I can see how it would get complicated with the increasing salaries and such but still pretty easy to understand. Thanks!

No problem. Like I said, I kept it simple, but typically base salaries escalate. Additionally, there are roster bonuses, workout bonuses and performance bonuses that can inflate a cap number.

Roster bonuses are guaranteed of the player is on the roster by a specified date, which is why you sometimes why you see big names get released after the draft or before free agency.

Workout bonuses are self explanatory. They get them for attending certain offseason workouts.

And performance bonuses can be based on playing time or certain measureables the player achieves during the season.

There are also ways to protect the team financially from an injury prone player etc. All kinds of options to fudge the numbers with a contract.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:35 am

shularino

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Ireland realizes his job is on the line.........the team better produce in '13 and the safe bet was to re-sign Hartline.

I've been pretty defiant that Hartline was not worth a contract of this size, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and he lives up to the deal.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:48 am

bobby0112

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

And keep in mind the rookies drafted in the first round are not getting huge contracts anymore right out of the draft. That frees up more money for the free agents. I think resigning Hartline is a huge plus+.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:23 am

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

I'd rather pay $6 million a year for Brian Hartline than for Laurent Robinson or Robert Meachem.

Initially I thought 6 million seemed like a lot for Brian Hartline until you put the market into prospective..

Bowe just signed for almost twice that now ask yourself is Dwayne Bowe twice as good as Brian Hartline?.. Because that's what the contracts are saying...

To answer my question I would have to say no..

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:12 pm

Big Dave

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Contrary to what some around here think of Hartline and Bess, Scout.com thinks that Hartline and Bess are good #2 and #3 receivers.

Quote:

With Hartline back in the fold, the Dolphins could find themselves with a very good top-three group at wide receiver if they can land the player perceived to be their top free agent, Pittsburgh Steelers wide receiver Mike Wallace.

Ireland realizes his job is on the line.........the team better produce in '13 and the safe bet was to re-sign Hartline.

I've been pretty defiant that Hartline was not worth a contract of this size, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and he lives up to the deal.

What if Tannehill lobbyed to Ireland to re sign him? Does that change your opinion on him? The market for a WR with his production was in the 6 million dollar range. What do you think Chiefs fans are saying about giving Bowe all of that money? The market dictates what a player is going to get paid. I like the signing and we didn't break the bank but more importantly we kept him away for Brady. Tell me you guys wouldn't be jumping off the roof watching Hartline catch 95 balls with 8 TD's for the Pats, if you say NO you're lieing.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:27 pm

Finhead34

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

If Miami lands Wallace, teams will have to single coverage Hartline even more. Look for him to really breakout this season if Miami lands a big time #1 receiver. Bess for that matter will get open more underneath as well. Keeping Hartline was a very smart move IMO & even more so again if Ireland lands the big play guy.

Midnight tonight teams can actually officially come to an agreement with a free agent, but just cannot sign until after 4pm Tuesday, so even though I don't expect it to happen, but Miami could announce coming to terms with Wallace in just over 12 hours. I just hope the Patriots don't jump into this sweepstake. Minnesota and Indy's name popped up for Wallace too.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:36 pm

pauspe

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

MdDolfan wrote:

shularino wrote:

Ireland realizes his job is on the line.........the team better produce in '13 and the safe bet was to re-sign Hartline.

I've been pretty defiant that Hartline was not worth a contract of this size, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and he lives up to the deal.

What if Tannehill lobbyed to Ireland to re sign him? Does that change your opinion on him? The market for a WR with his production was in the 6 million dollar range. What do you think Chiefs fans are saying about giving Bowe all of that money? The market dictates what a player is going to get paid. I like the signing and we didn't break the bank but more importantly we kept him away for Brady. Tell me you guys wouldn't be jumping off the roof watching Hartline catch 95 balls with 8 TD's for the Pats, if you say NO you're lieing.

I was thinking the same thing about the pats grabbing Hartline if we let him walk. I would hate to see him torch us twice a year like what Wes Welker has been doing over the last few years. By the way, how does Hartlines stats match up to Welker's the last year he was with the phins?

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:40 pm

MdDolfan

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

I was thinking......now that we signed Hartline, would you rather we break the bank (because if we want Wallace we have to break the bank) by signing Wallace or try to get Cook (TE) and Jennings?

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:42 pm

Phins Rock

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

MdDolfan wrote:

I was thinking......now that we signed Hartline, would you rather we break the bank (because if we want Wallace we have to break the bank) by signing Wallace or try to get Cook (TE) and Jennings?

You can get Wallace and Cook.

I've changed my stance on this, but I'd rather save TE to the draft. They need to take care of the Offensive Line and CB in Free Agency.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:44 pm

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

pauspe wrote:

By the way, how does Hartlines stats match up to Welker's the last year he was with the phins?

67 catches for 687 yards and 1 TD.

74 receptions for 1083 yards and 1 TD.

Welker had 1 TD in two seasons with Miami.

He went on to average 6 per season with New England.

What a great quarterback can do for a receiver.

At the time, Welker received a 5 year, 18 million deal with a $9 million signing bonus from the Patriots. This was in 2007.

Yeah I wanted to point that out since a few folks on this board was pointing to Hartline's 1 touchdown as a reason he did not deserve the contract he signed. I remember wondering how bad could it be for Welker to go to the pats when he was not putting up any serious numbers with the phins. I think with another year under this system and if our GM bring in more weapons on offense to take away opponents focus off of him, Hartline should put up a lot better numbers. Throw in the fact that our QB will also have much more experience.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:56 pm

MdDolfan

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

pauspe wrote:

MdDolfan wrote:

shularino wrote:

Ireland realizes his job is on the line.........the team better produce in '13 and the safe bet was to re-sign Hartline.

I've been pretty defiant that Hartline was not worth a contract of this size, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and he lives up to the deal.

What if Tannehill lobbyed to Ireland to re sign him? Does that change your opinion on him? The market for a WR with his production was in the 6 million dollar range. What do you think Chiefs fans are saying about giving Bowe all of that money? The market dictates what a player is going to get paid. I like the signing and we didn't break the bank but more importantly we kept him away for Brady. Tell me you guys wouldn't be jumping off the roof watching Hartline catch 95 balls with 8 TD's for the Pats, if you say NO you're lieing.

I was thinking the same thing about the pats grabbing Hartline if we let him walk. I would hate to see him torch us twice a year like what Wes Welker has been doing over the last few years. By the way, how does Hartlines stats match up to Welker's the last year he was with the phins?

Great! Another good move by Miami. They kept talent they had. One less hole to fill. Smart.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:44 pm

shularino

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

MdDolfan wrote:

shularino wrote:

Ireland realizes his job is on the line.........the team better produce in '13 and the safe bet was to re-sign Hartline.

I've been pretty defiant that Hartline was not worth a contract of this size, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and he lives up to the deal.

What if Tannehill lobbyed to Ireland to re sign him? Does that change your opinion on him? The market for a WR with his production was in the 6 million dollar range. What do you think Chiefs fans are saying about giving Bowe all of that money? The market dictates what a player is going to get paid. I like the signing and we didn't break the bank but more importantly we kept him away for Brady. Tell me you guys wouldn't be jumping off the roof watching Hartline catch 95 balls with 8 TD's for the Pats, if you say NO you're lieing.

Only time will tell if this was a smart move. Personally, I think Ireland is doing what he can to limit risk and criticism in 2013. Which may come to hurt us in later years.........we'll see. To your point, if Hartline went to the Pats and put up good numbers, then Ireland looks like an idiot.

Combine that with signing Moore for $4 Mil/year for the next two years. Most teams don't sign a guy they hope never sees a down to $4Mil/year. Again, if Tannehill got hurt, and the Phins didn't have a reliable backup, then Ireland feels the heat.

Ross is going after a new stadium deal..............this team needs to win and probably make the playoffs in 2013 for Ireland's job not to be in jeopardy. It's really not any different than the choices we face in everyday life. If the Boss tells you a project must be completed on time or you'll lose your job, you would not let an experienced guy on your team go, even though there's been performance issues and strong rookie candidates are available. The same goes for the old experienced guy that really doesn't do a lot, but you know you know you may need him if your resources become limited.

In total, I think we overspent on Hartline by about $4-5 mil, I would have been comfortable with about $8 mil guaranteed. If Tannehill stays healthy, then we gave away another $4 mil for an insurance policy (considering a No. 2 QB, is probably getting something around $2mil/yr) In the whole scheme these aren't numbers that will break the team, but you reduce your opportunities to bring in players that will have a long-term impact.

Anyway, I still think we'll get a WR in the first 2 rounds and I don't anticipate us taking a QB in this year's draft.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:03 pm

Rock Sexton

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

shularino wrote:

Combine that with signing Moore for $4 Mil/year for the next two years. Most teams don't sign a guy they hope never sees a down to $4Mil/year. Again, if Tannehill got hurt, and the Phins didn't have a reliable backup, then Ireland feels the heat.

Honestly, when you look at the combined salaries of Tanny and Moore, it's almost a no-brainer to have that kind of insurance. Together they will make less than $7 million in 2013. You know how many starting QB's in this league make more than that? Check out this list from 2012:

Aside from Tom Brady, they're also the next two best QB's in the whole division.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:10 pm

wkloiber13

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

I'm glad we were able to re-sign Hartline. $12.5M guaranteed is a fair deal for a solid veteran player like him. $30M is a bit much, but if he fulfills the contract obligations, he'll have earned it. I just hope we continue to see growth and improved production out of the guy.

Now that we've got Hartline and Bess locked down, I'm hoping we can manage to add two more receivers to the group. One speedster and one big redzone guy. I'm pulling to see the Dolphins draft Hunter from Tennessee or Williams from Baylor in the 2nd. I'm also slowly accepting the idea that Wallace will be the speedster we get. I would love to see our receiver group look like this:

1 - Hartline2 - Bess3 - Wallace4 - Matthews5 - Hunter or Williams

Last edited by wkloiber13 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:28 pm

shularino

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Rock Sexton wrote:

shularino wrote:

Combine that with signing Moore for $4 Mil/year for the next two years. Most teams don't sign a guy they hope never sees a down to $4Mil/year. Again, if Tannehill got hurt, and the Phins didn't have a reliable backup, then Ireland feels the heat.

Honestly, when you look at the combined salaries of Tanny and Moore, it's almost a no-brainer to have that kind of insurance. Together they will make less than $7 million in 2013. You know how many starting QB's in this league make more than that? Check out this list from 2012:

Aside from Tom Brady, they're also the next two best QBs in the whole division.

I thought about that too Rock. We're in great shape, when it comes to what we're paying for QB's, but I chose to look at the team as a whole. I'm not saying re-signing Moore was a bad move, but it is what it is...........a $4mil/yr insurance policy. If Tannehill gets injured, then we're still in good shape..........if Tannehill stays healthy then that's $$ that could have gone elsewhere. It's just the nature of the Backup QB, you hope you never need them, but if you do, then you want to feel confident you can still win.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:28 pm

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

shularino wrote:

I would have been comfortable with about $8 mil guaranteed.

I think when we get the details of the contract, that's where the signing bonus will be around. Don't be misled by the "$12.5 million guaranteed" label. Some of those guarantees come in the form of bonuses outside of the signing bonus.

Quote:

considering a No. 2 QB, is probably getting something around $2mil/yr

I don't mean to pick on you man, but I don't think you've caught up with the value of NFL players in 2013. You're stuck somewhere in 2006. According to a report issued by the NFL in 2010, the typical salary range for a #2 QB in the NFL was $2-$5 million a year.

So we can make an apples to apples comparison, let's look at the salaries for some of the top veteran back up QBs in the NFL for 2012. I excluded guys on their rookie contract because they are obviously going to be cheaper and it is an apples to oranges comparison. I also excluded Alex Smith because he was the opening day starter and Matt Flynn because he was supposed to be the starter.

You can probably get a Matt Leinart or a Vince Young for less... but is that really what you want the team to do? THAT would be $2 million better spent elsewhere.

You're undervaluing our own players and failing to realize that every season the player contracts are supposed to get bigger. That was the point of the last CBA, to give the veteran players more and to keep rookie salaries reasonable.

I think you're going to be severely shocked when you start seeing some of the contracts being signed in free agency. It is what it is, man. The price teams play to keep or acquire veteran talent. You can't fix everything by letting holes open up and hoping you patch them up in the draft.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:47 pm

Rich

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Re: Dolphins resign Brian Hartline

Phins Rock wrote:

MdDolfan wrote:

I was thinking......now that we signed Hartline, would you rather we break the bank (because if we want Wallace we have to break the bank) by signing Wallace or try to get Cook (TE) and Jennings?

You can get Wallace and Cook.

I've changed my stance on this, but I'd rather save TE to the draft. They need to take care of the Offensive Line and CB in Free Agency.

I agree.

A lot of defensive backs are being released that can still play at a high level. Chris Gamble and Aaron Ross to name a couple.

Do you think this is going to drive down the price for guys like Sean Smith?