Lujo wrote:If it allready works that way, make a note of making it more clear because one of the guys who's spent the most time playing the game wasn't aware of it, hasn't made the connection and has never found a reason to replay a challenge after being done with it (short of litterly forcing myself by making a new profile).

So you didn't know that doing a Silver challenge again re-issued you with the item that it originally unlocked?

I did, but re-doing Rogue, Bloodmage or many other silvers seemed like such a terrible time investment once I've cleared it, it compared so badly to doing anything I haven't already that I couldn't imagine it could be taken as a serious proposition. Same reason I can't unlocker the Fabulous Treasure. I wasn't mad or anything - this happened with every other such instance spontaneously. The connection people naturally make with quite a bunch of that stuff is - I'm glad I'm over with it, I never want to see it again. Especially if it was a learning expirience and it took them a while the first time. The playthrough where bloodmage silver was giving me a hard time was so frustrating, and the time loss of banging my head against the wall instead of doing regular runs eventually had me give up on challenges alltogather*, even accepting that gold challenge veto slots "were not for me" and not even attempting them. Then I went to beat VGT over and over. EDIT: And made videos of it - much better investment of my time, even if took a lot more time.

I went to test it just now, and tried to relocker Soul Orb via the gnome puzzle - since I forgot the solution, 20 minutes later I'm still a Soul Orb short. I can tinker scum a Soul Orb, but nothing in the world can give me my 20 minutes back.

EDIT: * because even a chance of running into something that could take so much time and doesn't simultaneously = (unlock an item + you only have to do it once) made it "not worth it". I didn't even unlock Vampiric Blade that time because of this. Veto slots weren't appealing to me - I only did the minimalist run to prove a point.** Nothing could make me risk running into another bloodmage silver style time sink. Time is very, very precious, what drove people bonkers with this whole topic is you guys apparently stubbornly EDIT: being cavalier about the way DD taxes it, while at the same time it being the most precious thing in the world. The game is already a huge time sink, even for the most rich, and the biggest layabouts.

EDIT:** The point, even back then was: "There are better ways to play than ones which include wasting time scumming for CYDSTEPP" primarily. More accurately: "Any way, even complete cheating, makes more sense than wasting time scumming for CYDTEPP". I unlocked only things I needed to play VGT not to give me more power - I've beaten it many times before - but to save TIME. I begged you to take mana burn off Horatio to save time it takes to scumm up a Soul Orb on every run where I want to prep another item. This is probably the most consistent phenomenon you've seen throughtout the beta - people going out of their way to dodge any artifical time sink and giving up on power and experimentation if it means it will take more of their time then the game already does.

Last edited by Lujo on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 16 times in total.

dislekcia wrote:Keep going... How would players respond to that option?

... I'm not sure if you're actually going somewhere with this counter-scenario or if it's just a distraction from the very real complaints that you're steadfastly not fixing, but either way, I think I'm done here.

Sorry beta veterans. I tried. See you again in fifty seven months or whenever this game is actually scheduled to be finished now.

dislekcia wrote:Keep going... How would players respond to that option?

... I'm not sure if you're actually going somewhere with this counter-scenario or if it's just a distraction from the very real complaints that you're steadfastly not fixing, but either way, I think I'm done here.

Sorry beta veterans. I tried. See you again in fifty seven months or whenever this game is actually scheduled to be finished now.

Wow. Ok...

I was trying to get to the point where it becomes obvious that players would become upset that they were wasting huge amounts of money scumming for items by re-rolling the Merchant items. Then they'd start complaining that the fee to re-roll was too high and that there were too few items each time, etc. So we'd essentially be back where we started. It's exactly the same sort of cycle without the gold re-roll, except then players would be complaining about the time investment required to win a dungeon when any dungeon win will do (and hence everyone zooms through hobblers).

Lujo wrote:If it allready works that way, make a note of making it more clear because one of the guys who's spent the most time playing the game wasn't aware of it, hasn't made the connection and has never found a reason to replay a challenge after being done with it (short of litterly forcing myself by making a new profile).

So you didn't know that doing a Silver challenge again re-issued you with the item that it originally unlocked?

I'll say it never occurred to me.

Mostly because I consider the difficulty of the Silver and Gold challenges to be extreme enough that, when combined with the lack of variability, they aren't fun. As in, I didn't enjoy them the first time and don't intend to ever do them again.

So you didn't know that doing a Silver challenge again re-issued you with the item that it originally unlocked?

I've known about this since it was first mentioned by you ages ago, but under no circumstances would I rather repeat the silver challenges than just scum for the item.

While I won't go so far as to say the challenges weren't fun; the fun was more in figuring out how to complete them. Doing the same run repeatedly generally doesn't appeal to me (and most of the challenges don't even have preps so they're even less interesting than repeating the regular dungeons).

They invariably have rules and placements that are outside the norm. As a result, an attempt on puzzles or class challenges means i spend the first run learning or relearning the rules of a challenge. Then subsequent runs i might have a chance.

So getting an item through challenges represents a lot of work for a casual player like me.

I think there's an interesting mix of purpose here. The devs have supplied class challanges as a means of getting items reliably. On the one hand, the challenges must actually be challenging so players,appreciate them. On the other, many players see them as a means to an end, and resent that challenge.

I feel that the class challenges had little net effect on the way players interact with the locker, only provided an alternative means. If anything its reinforced the idea that players should be playing the locker rather than the RNG.

The locker is in a weird middle ground between becoming the whole game and being useless. Personally, i don't use it to its full potential because of the effort involved in lockering items. Its kind of like getting a new bike and only,being allowed to ride it in the backyard, and i think the passion and frustration of players stems from this.

I never replayed the silver challenges, but then again I never scummed for a specific item.

One thing about the argument: "It's possible to scum for an item but no fun, so we have to get items another way". Couldn't you say the same thing about gold? You can scum a little gold profit by just picking up all the and translocate an item with the tinker and then leave. It would take a long time and would be no fun, but you could scum for gold. So, if the devs don't want you to have any item available it is not a good argument to say but is possible, but in a very boring way. Or am I missing the point?

berpdreyfuss wrote:I never replayed the silver challenges, but then again I never scummed for a specific item.

One thing about the argument: "It's possible to scum for an item but no fun, so we have to get items another way". Couldn't you say the same thing about gold? You can scum a little gold profit by just picking up all the and translocate an item with the tinker and then leave. It would take a long time and would be no fun, but you could scum for gold. So, if the devs don't want you to have any item available it is not a good argument to say but is possible, but in a very boring way. Or am I missing the point?

Yep, but due to circumstance my clarification got lost. Thing with gold is you get rewarded for it by doing what you do when you sit down to play a game of DD. After a point it's comming out of your ears, and someone playing purist could completely ignore the fact it exists, let alone piles up. Playing DD - playing runs - takes as much time as one is willing to invest, and people are willing to invest quite a bit of time into doing that. Every day. I play 4-5 runs per day for no other reward but enjoying the game. Once I grind up the 9th slot, my gold will just pile up to 100 000, the more skilled I become the faster it will pile up.

Yet I will never find myself in a situation where replaying thef gold to have the treasure available becomes something my brain will allow me to accept as sensible. I tried to use the "aequitas method" a few hours ago - I decided to try lockering the keg of health post-run, so that when the PQI suggests an awkward dwarf run I can look at that proposition as something I'm looking forward to. And I spent a good 10 minutes staring at my locker unable to justify removing any vicious rewards out simply because of what it would take me to bring them back. I couldn't take the CB out because I want to try it out with elves. I couldn't take the Trisword out because I'm looking forward to trying it out and it made me feel good about playing PQI rogues after so much time. I ended up taking the sheers out - and that means the shears will have to wait until I get bored with the keg.

I have 8 locker slots, and my mind is telling me I only have 1. I wouldn't mind being able to relocker something as a result of doing something I want to do (play DD), but I have never, in all this time, been able to accept the game asking me to do something I don't want to do instead of simply playing it. Spontaneously. It never occured to me that anyone could even consider asking something like that from people - the only way it looked sensible was if it was a built in mechanism to force/frustrate you into taking breaks from an otherwise very addictive game. There are such things, I always assumed this would either be changed, or that enough people would bring it up and the dev's would say it's like that as a "you've been playing too much" mechanism that needs to be there by a law or something...

Ok, thanks for the clarification, I think I understand the problem a little better. The way it is now, it is simply not meant to be played this way: Take any item x in no time and see what it can do. I still don't see why it couldn't be a "last" unlock at the end of the post game because there it only will be for the vets who all seem to want this feature. I don't think "normal" players will feel "locked out" like it was mentioned somewhere or the beginning of a slippery slope, but it might be the case and I guess it's for the devs to decide.