Compton effect does the electron radiate?

In the Compton Effect, we normally treat the interaction as a billiard ball collision. It's not clear to me that this takes everything into account. If the electron ricochets off the photon, then it accelerates. Does it then radiate? If so, it seems to me that there would be additional losses not accounted for in the textbook calculations.

According to classical mechanics, the electron is accelerated by an EM wave, and this does indeed cause it to radiate: and that radiation is what cancels out part of the original EM wave and constitutes the colour-shifted wave.

In the Compton Effect, we normally treat the interaction as a billiard ball collision. It's not clear to me that this takes everything into account. If the electron ricochets off the photon, then it accelerates. Does it then radiate? If so, it seems to me that there would be additional losses not accounted for in the textbook calculations.

Textbook calculations are usually limited to the lowest order of the perturbation theory. If you take into account also higher orders you'll see that the Compton scattering is accompanied by the emission of "soft" photons, i.e., additional energy losses.

Staff: Mentor

Textbook calculations are usually limited to the lowest order of the perturbation theory. If you take into account also higher orders you'll see that the Compton scattering is accompanied by the emission of "soft" photons, i.e., additional energy losses.

Not to dispute this, but simply to get an idea of the size of this effect... consider for example a 662 keV gamma-ray photon Compton-scattering off an electron (which is commonly studied in simple undergraduate laboratories). Roughly how much energy do these soft photons carry?

There's a range of energies, but an estimate of the size would be of order [itex]\alpha/\pi[/itex], probably somewhat less. Perhaps hundreds of eV.

The "range" of energies is what I'd like to understand. In this kind of motion there is no sustained oscillation giving a single frequency, but rather a spectrum of frequencies which combines to account for the motion. The energy density within this spectrum is far from equalling a single quantum of energy for any specific frequency. So what does it mean if you detect a soft photon? Does the whole frequency spectrum "collapse"? Because there is no way all the soft energy could have gone into a single frequency at the moment of collision.

Not to dispute this, but simply to get an idea of the size of this effect... consider for example a 662 keV gamma-ray photon Compton-scattering off an electron (which is commonly studied in simple undergraduate laboratories). Roughly how much energy do these soft photons carry?

Vanadium50 gives a ballpark of several hundred eV for the soft photons. This seems really high to me. Lets just ballpark...

The 662 keV photon has a wavelength on the order of 10 ^-12 meters. So in the COM frame, the electron has the same wavelength. This corresponds to an electron energy of approx. 1000 eV. So Vanadium's "soft photons" would carry of a very significant part of the electron energy. How would the undergraduate laboratory demonstration give the right numbers in that case?

Staff: Mentor

I'm just looking for an order of magnitude figure for the total energy radiated. So it's hundreds of eV compared to hundreds of keV for the incoming and scattered photon, which is on the order of 0.1% of the total energy involved in this process.

You'd surely need pretty sensitive experiments to detect this effect, which is one reason why it's not brought up in a standard intro modern physics course. Also the theoretical analysis is a bit above the level of that kind of course.

Staff: Mentor

The 662 keV photon has a wavelength on the order of 10 ^-12 meters. So in the COM frame, the electron has the same wavelength. This corresponds to an electron energy of approx. 1000 eV. So Vanadium's "soft photons" would carry of a very significant part of the electron energy. How would the undergraduate laboratory demonstration give the right numbers in that case?

I'm just looking for an order of magnitude figure for the total energy radiated. So it's hundreds of eV compared to hundreds of keV for the incoming and scattered photon, which is on the order of 0.1% of the total energy involved in this process.

I'm also probably on the high side here as well. The other scales in the problem are all smaller, and I know that the interferences are destructive, not constructive.

You can visualize the soft photon emission as follows: the photon scatters off the electron, sending it flying. Now that the electron has experienced an acceleration, it radiates.

Here is a web reference that discusses scattering of 1-eV laser photons off a 4 to 8 GeV electron beam. references to published papers on Compton scattering vertex corrections are included.
http://www.dextermag.com/uploadedFiles/Alnico_Data_Sheet.pdf [Broken]
The vertex corrections are less than 1%, Do a google search on "SLAC Compton Scattering" to find other similar papers

In the Compton Effect, we normally treat the interaction as a billiard ball collision. It's not clear to me that this takes everything into account. If the electron ricochets off the photon, then it accelerates. Does it then radiate? If so, it seems to me that there would be additional losses not accounted for in the textbook calculations.

As meopemuk said, there is always soft radiation with a continuous spectrum.

The Compton scattering kinematics is similar to billiard ball one if one considers photons as particles with specific energy-momentum (quantum) relationship and the electrons as relativistic particles. But the Compton wavelength Λ=ћ/mc is written for electron as if it were a quantum wave (not a particle) and the photon were a classical wave of a given frequency (not a particle). In QED both are de Broglie waves, so their scattering is due to non linearity of QED's wave equations. Of course, the other photon modes are also excited (soft radiation). Normally their energy is within the hard photon source/detector and electron detector accuracy range (i.e. included experimentally events). It corresponds to the inclusive theoretical QED cross section. See my "Atom as a "dressed" nucleus" for the inclusive cross section physics under large-angle scattering.

A wavelength of [itex]10^{-12}[/itex] m correponds to a momentum of 1240 keV/c. For an electron, this means a (total) energy of [itex]E = \sqrt {(pc)^2 + (mc^2)^2}[/itex] = 1342 keV.

For my example, with a scattering angle of 45 degrees, the wavelength is [itex]3.55 \times 10^{-12}[/itex] m, which leads to a (total) electron energy of 619 keV.

Thanks for checking my numbers. I see what I did wrong. (I ballparked a 10eV electron wavelength as 10^{-10}m based on the hydrogen atom, then multiplied the momentum by 100 to equate to the wavelength of the photon. Forgot to square 100 to get the energy multiplier. Still out by a factor of 10 but what the heck.)

... consider for example a 662 keV gamma-ray photon Compton-scattering off an electron (which is commonly studied in simple undergraduate laboratories). Roughly how much energy do these soft photons carry?

What is the incident gamma-ray energy uncertainty in such experiments?
What are the gamma-detector and electron detector uncertainties?

What is the incident gamma-ray energy uncertainty in such experiments?
What are the gamma-detector and electron detector uncertainties?
Bob.

The 662 KeV gamma from Cs-137 is very precise, because the half-life of Cs-137 is many years. A gamma detector has statistical uncetainties on the energy resolution, which depends on what fraction of the photon energy is absorbed, and/or electron/holes (silicon) or photoelectrons (for NaI(Tl)) are created for each individual incident photon. In both cases (silicon and NaI(Tl)), the incident photon can create a Compton electron, and the recoil secondary photon escapes the detector. This will show up in the energy spectrum as a Compton backscatter peak at about 184 KeV.
My first "exposure" to the 662 KeV cesium spectrum was when we received a pulse height analyzer (PHA) from the vendor in 1958, and the spectrum was still stored in the PHA core memory.