honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.

honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.

Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.

"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.

Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.

no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.

Star Wars Rebels: Sabine My Rebel Sketchbook wrote:Base Delta Zero was the code for an Imperial military initiative used to cause widespread devastation on a planet. Although the Empire claimed that Base Delta Zero was part of planetary liberations, in actuality, the tactic was used to completely exterminate a planet's population.

I think you mean new canon definition, in a strikingly familiar format.

Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.

Star Wars Rebels: Sabine My Rebel Sketchbook wrote:Base Delta Zero was the code for an Imperial military initiative used to cause widespread devastation on a planet. Although the Empire claimed that Base Delta Zero was part of planetary liberations, in actuality, the tactic was used to completely exterminate a planet's population.

I think you mean new canon definition, in a strikingly familiar format.

as opposed to the old EU non canon definition.....

Star Wars Imperial Sourcebook wrote: Defined as "the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids."

that is a huge difference there. wiping out the population from orbit, ergo causing widespread devastation, is not the same as stripping the first few inches of topsoil off the surface of a planet. its not even close. IIRC it required at least 3 cap ships, a number of smaller ships, and their entire fighter/bomber compliments a day to accomplish.

Zero Hour, where the Imperials were trying to knock out the shield and take prisoners? Or was there another one?

Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.

there is no reason to think they weren't firing at full power. any conclusion stating otherwise would be pure speculation as there is nothing to prove variable yield turbolasers.

How about "we've seen turbolaser output far higher, so what's your explanation?"
Simplest solution: the OT and PT were LIES! [/sarcasm]

Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.

Well, Kanan is knocked off his space-bike by a (rough-estimates) grenade-sized (5m) explosion, in atmosphere, from orbit.

In the opening of A New Hope, the Tantive IV is rocked by a single shot from the pursuing Star Destroyer in a "close-up" shot, striking the 125-ish meter ship, specifically to knock out their shields (visual evidence, ~30m diameter flash, in space) and force them to shut down their reactor (audible audio and dialog on board) without destroying them. The Tantive IVwasn't peppered with grenade-sized explosions.

Precision targeting and a scaled offense (variable yield) is part of Imperial gunnery! Whodathunkit?! No, wait, that's a conclusion drawn from canon evidence, or as you like to say "unfounded speculation!"

So you going to last 3 months this time, before taking your ball and running home again?

Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.

...to say nothing, of course, of the Empire asteroid vaping scene, in which we see firepower millions of times in excess of "Zero Hour" from guns which are absolutely tiny compared to the heaviest guns on a Star Destroyer.

Maybe it's discordant with a strict interpretation of the current canon policy, but I don't treat cartoon visuals with the same weight I do live-action footage. The former is a recreation of actual events; the latter, real footage of things as they actually happened, just like a proper documentary. I liken the distinction between a cartoon I saw about the Hiroshima nuke vs. actual pictures and videography... while the anime recaptured the who, where, how and why, the "what" was too incongruous with reality to analyze the bomb's yield (e.g., the way the civvies in the anime were lit afire, then stumbled about like zombies, only to violently explode into clouds of ash many seconds later).

Pain, or damage, don't end the world, or despair, or fuckin' beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, ya got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man ... and give some back.
-Al Swearengen

Cry woe, destruction, ruin and decay: The worst is death, and death will have his day.
-Ole' Shakey's "Richard II," Act III, scene ii.

honestly I just don't see the point of having a discussion using calcs from the old EU. the high end numbers are unrealistic and unsupportable and the low end are just as bad. for every feat supporting one set of numbers, there is another that debunks it. I think ill just leave yall to it. enjoy.

Base Delta Zero's, the basis for the old calcs, are canon.

no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.

The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.

"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

To add to these things, while I'm not much of a fan of The Game Theorists, Mat Pat has a video about Battlefront II(2017) analyzing Operation Cinder, and his conclusion is that a Climate Disruption Array (basically two dozen or so weaponized weather satellites) as shown in the game and comics can actually turn a planet's atmosphere into a boiling mass of plasma. So another method of BDZ that is arguably less energy intensive, but perhaps more efficient as well once you build the satellites, and its nothing to laugh at energy-wise either. Destroying a planet's crust was never the most efficient way of rendering a planet uninhabitable.

Last edited by Formless on 2017-12-13 04:30pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." —Shroom Man 777"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.

The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.

and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.

no its not. Disney mentioned it in SWR as population extermination, which is not the same as the old EU NON CANON definition. disneys policy is if a non canon event or person is mentioned, only what is seen in the new canon is canon. not its EU history. you are just SOL on that one. population extermination can be done with far far less effort than a fleet of ISDs bombing a planet for god knows how long.

The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.

and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.

a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.

"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

The TFA ICS mentions that the Resurgent can reduce the surface of worlds into slag, in other words an old BDZ. Since BDZ’s are mentioned and an old school BDZ is mentioned, assuming they are the same is only sensible, especially given that nothing mentioned shows any reason for them to conflict.

and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.

a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.

key word "presumably". in other words, you have no idea. and just FYI, kyber crystals, the objects that increases their firepower, are in very short supply. meaning that only a few ships even have them. the rest are stuck with conventional turbolasers.

and yes, the falcon could. it would just take a long longer, and a small bit at a time.

and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.

a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.

key word "presumably". in other words, you have no idea. and just FYI, kyber crystals, the objects that increases their firepower, are in very short supply. meaning that only a few ships even have them. the rest are stuck with conventional turbolasers.

and yes, the falcon could. it would just take a long longer, and a small bit at a time.

The key words are order of magnitude. The site consensus we have here is that ISD firepower is in the neighborhood of 2 petatons. There is, as you have mentioned, quite a bit of wiggle room in how that number was derived, and if you were arguing for say 500 teratons because the Resurgent has more powerful turbolasers, that'd be quite reasonable. However, you're not arguing for single order of magnitude differences. You are arguing for something in the neighborhood of 6 orders of magnitude, and the calculations, while uncertain, aren't nearly uncertain enough to make your position tenable.

"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

a. Presumably a similar amount of time as previously.
b. The millenium falcon just can't slag a planet's surface. That's not how heat dispersion works.

key word "presumably". in other words, you have no idea. and just FYI, kyber crystals, the objects that increases their firepower, are in very short supply. meaning that only a few ships even have them. the rest are stuck with conventional turbolasers.

and yes, the falcon could. it would just take a long longer, and a small bit at a time.

The key words are order of magnitude. The site consensus we have here is that ISD firepower is in the neighborhood of 2 petatons. There is, as you have mentioned, quite a bit of wiggle room in how that number was derived, and if you were arguing for say 500 teratons because the Resurgent has more powerful turbolasers, that'd be quite reasonable. However, you're not arguing for single order of magnitude differences. You are arguing for something in the neighborhood of 6 orders of magnitude, and the calculations, while uncertain, aren't nearly uncertain enough to make your position tenable.

I assume you are talking per shot. site consensus my ass. its nowhere near 2 gigatons, or a fraction of 2 gigatons, much less petatons and has never demonstrated firepower that high. 200 gigatons is the highest number from any publication that I know of and thats only .2 teratons. now you are claiming the bullshit number of petatons? whoever told you that is a fucking liar. if they had that kind of firepower, then they wouldn't need the fucking death star. that wasn't the case. basing calculations on something that never happened seems to be a regular occurrence here. my understanding of those calculations is that saxton pretty much tweaked how a BDZ works to his liking, and derived his figures from that.

Now you're just being deliberately dense. He said "ISD firepower," not "turbolaser firepower" meaning he was talking about the entire ship and all it's weapons combined, not per shot you moron.

Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

Oh, and just for perspective-the Death Star blast was about 2.4 billion petatons, all in one go. 'if they had that kind of firepower, then they wouldn't need the fucking death star' my kevlar-clad behind

'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

Also, lets go deeper into Operation: Cinder for a moment. All of this is back of the envelope and assumes we are trying to turn Earth's atmosphere into a uniform plasma over 310,000 degrees Fahrenheit or 172204.4444 degrees Celsius, as claimed in Mat Pat's video. This will be an upper limit calculation, since in reality the atmosphere will probably just boil off before it turns into a uniform purple glowing plasma. I mean literally leave orbit, as will soon become apparent from the numbers:

Going by this Quora response, the basic calorimetric equation is Q = m*Cp*deltaT, where the mass of the Earth's atmosphere is 5.1480*10^18 kg and its Cp (that is, heat capacity) is roughly 1012 J/(Kg*K). The mean temperature of the Earth is 289.15K, and we want to raise it approximately 172188.4444 degrees. Plugging that into the equation we get:

Q= 5.1480*10^18 kg * 1012 J/(Kg*K) * 172188.4444 K

Spoilers: this is a huge number. Q= 8.9706*10^26 J

That of course is the final energy output for the whole array after several hours of constantly bombarding the planet's atmosphere with energy. Supposedly the array around Naboo had about twenty satellites. So when we divide the energy by 20 we get 4.4853*10^25 J per-weather satellite. And canonically according to the books in continuity with TFA and The Last Jedi, the Climate Disruption Array destroyed Naboo's atmosphere in just a matter of hours, rendering it inhospitable for life. Also, I don't know what the efficiency losses are here, so the actual energy levels could be higher-- or lower, since again, the Climate Disruption Array would more likely strip the atmosphere entirely from the planet's surface before it actually reaches that temperature.

Conclusion: Star Wars still has amazing energy generation technology even in the new TFA canon, and its not just limited to the Death Star. I see no reason a Star Destroyer couldn't have weapons every bit as powerful as the old canon or as powerful as this site has been saying they are since the late 90's. Indeed, the only question I have is why Operation: Cinder didn't just use conventional BDZ style bombardment, but I can mentally chalk that up to the satellites being deemed more efficient than turbolasers for planetary depopulation. Turbolasers waste a lot of energy melting the actual surface whereas the CDA laser sats heat the atmosphere until everything is dead and the infrastructure has been thoroughly scorched. Perhaps they were even tested in BDZ operations, for all we know.

"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." —Shroom Man 777"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

and how long does it take? and that's not even the definition of BDZ. it never was. I just posted the old definition. hell, the MF can slag a planets surface, given enough time. that gives almost no details whatsoever. that's not enough to extrapolate anything. sounds more like a broad hyperbole statement than anything. come back when you actually have some details.

One can assume that, since it is a military vessel in a primarily hostile galaxy, the designers do not want it spending weeks blasting a planet, especially given the speed of Star Wars travel. If it did take weeks to slag a world, then it would not be mentioned. It would be useless. The Falcon is never mentioned to be able to slag worlds because it effectively can't, because someone would come fuck it up before it could finish. The same holds true for the Star Destroyer mentioned.

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--Mace

The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren