More importantly, this is another timely reminder that the primary source of violence and therefore political instability in the north is emanating from within the unionist community.

Unionist politicians have for years enjoyed a ‘cosy distance’ from unionist paramilitaries, enabling them to call upon the latter’s ‘services’ from time to time when it politically suited them whilst at the same time issuing weak condemnatory statements when they have been deemed to have gone too far.

All of which points to the fact that, regardless of any IRA statement this week, violence and paramilitarism will remain a depressing reality for so long as the political, religious and civic leaders of unionism refuse to grapple with the monster they created.

For evidence of continuing loyalist activity, we not only have the LVF- UVF feud, but also the second attack on Harryville chapel last night (Paisley Jnr uncannily predicted such violence?!?) the Holy Cross attacks at the weekend, and the loyalist attacks on two catholic homes in Stoneyford on Friday, which MP Donaldson has deemed ‘regrettable.’

Dr Snuggles

What a well-balanced and thoughtful post. It’s good to know there are people out there who can put themselves in others’ shoes. There’s hope yet.

Ahem.

Don’t Ring Hugh Orde

The PSNI will now talk to thugs to ask them to stop what they are doing but carry on talking for long enough that the thugs get to do what they wanted to do in the first place. This includes standing about allowing mobs to gather, thugs to go from house to house telling people to get out and staying there to make sure their handy work is successful.

Is this what Patten meant by community policing?

moyle rover

If these 300 or so individuals have not broken any law?? (according to the local police) and cannot be arrested perhaps the assets recovery agency or the DHSS will go through the financial details of each one of them and recover any goods or money that they cannot account for. If they wish to stand about intimidating people but apparantly not breaking the law that is up to them. But if they are living off the state and not actively seeking work the thier bru should be stopped and any houses cars they have accumulated recovered.

Concerned Loyalist

Don’t talk crap “Irishman”.

The Provos’ “will they won’t they” quandary on the issue of disbandment is the main cause of uncertainty and is responsible for the current political instability.

PS

So considering disbandment produces more instability than murdering people?

Funny old world.

Chris Gaskin

“The Provos “will they won’t they” quandary on the issue of disbandment “

What “will they won’t they” quandary?

I never heard Gerry Adams ask them to disband.

Perhaps CL if you looked at the news you would see that it is the Loyalists who are doing the shooting and killing.

When are they going to diband?

Dessertspoon

Possibly true to a certain extent Concerned Loyalist but the escalation in Loyalist Paramilitary violence nothing to do with the IRA it’s all about power in their own ghettos. They’re fighting amongst themselves for goodness sake with the odd snipe at the other side just to keep their hand in. If the IRA disappeared tomorrow it wouldn’t change the UVF or LVF one bit. Therefore “Community” leaders and politicans need to start getting involved to help them move into their new mode whatever that may be. We don’t need any of them republican or loyalist we just need them to realise that and feck off.

michael

irishman, you are only fooling yourself, no one else. SF/IRA and their arrogant assumption of the role of “true” nationalism is entirely to blame for the mess we are in.

A few Protestant thugs is not the equal opposite of the IRA with their robberies, beatings, oppression, extortion, MURDER, BOMBS….

Dick Doggins

Easy way to get them off the streets….threaten to get them a job!

DaithiO

Anyone who stands up now and bleats about “whataboutery” where the PIRA’s next move is concerned is a hypocrite. The Republican movement has voiced it’s opinion, the overwhelming majority has backed this up in referendum when they backed the Good Friday Agreement.

Right now the only active paramilitaries are NOT republicans. Can anyone imagine a PIRA “show of strength” the like of which I just saw on BBC Newsline, with the PSNI and British Army standing idly by.

It doesn’t matter that local residents have complained or not. Both the UVF and the UDA are proscribed organisations, and membership thereof is a crime !

Why are those who made political mileage over the tragic murder of Robert McCartney now being silent over the murders resulting from this feud ?

Against this ridiculous backdrop what right do the unionist community have to demand and end of the PIRA ?

worker

300 uvf members in the area.

Do none of these guys have a job.

We also had 200-300 uda members squaring up to each other on a Monday afternoon a few weeks ago.

Signing on day must be a Tuesday.

Spongers.

cap

Hollywood road dole office must be a busy spot on a Tuesday.

You musn’t be able to see yourself for all the baseball caps.

knock

Is this what Davey Irvine considers to be positive P.R

Strange that he calls the lvf, drug dealers, when the majority of drugs sold in East Belfast is sold by uvf foot soldiers.

Michael

DaithiO,

You talking crap as well. The IRA not active? You havin a laugh. How many IMC reports do you need before you understand the PIRA continue to RECRUIT, TARGET, SMUGGLE, ETC They are desribed as ACTIVE in every report.

Or are relying on the reports on Loyalist scum for evidence while ignoring the evidence on the PIRA?

Robert Keogh

Parachute regiment deployed in the Ardoyne to deal with civilians protesting OO march . RUC/PSNI stand idly by for british terrorists.

Why aren’t the British Army sent in to deal with these guys?

Denny Boy

Michael wrote: “SF/IRA and their arrogant assumption of the role of “true” nationalism is entirely to blame for the mess we are in.”

That’s odd. I was led to believe that Paisley’s leading a loyalist mob attack on peaceful protestors was to blame for the “mess we are in.”

Does this mean I can ask Paul Bew to refund the price I paid for the history book?

P.S. I wonder if the fathers and uncles of the Garnerville thugs took part in Burntollet?

Comrade Stalin

A group of Peter Robinson’s constituents have been put out of their houses by another group of Peter Robinson’s constituents. The best this man – this stalwart of law and order – can come up with is “please be nice to each other”.

No demands for swift police action. No demands for extra arrest powers for the police. No demands for an army deployment. No demands upon the residents in either case to co-operate with the police. No demands for the organizations involved to disband. Why should anyone ever believe that unionists are committed to exclusively peaceful means if they cannot bring themselves to challenge a direct attempt by paramilitaries to enforce their will over that of the authorities in a housing estate ?

The whataboutery of this thread is thoroughly depressing.

maca

Michael “SF/IRA … is entirely to blame for the mess we are in.” “A few Protestant thugs…”

Are you on a different planet? You seriously think these (MORE than a few) loyalist terrorists (not just simple thugs) take none of the blame for the mess you are in? You’re in dream land sunshine.

libby

Be under no illusion, this is a drug war to see who has the upper hand in selling drugs in working class estates.

Paramilitary drug dealers have no place in this society.

the uvf/lvf/uda have no right to poison a whole generation of protestant children

scipio

Can’t say for sure but could anyone confirm whether any Elected Representative has stood up and said “This must be condemned utterly” and (more importantly) “Will anyone who knows anything about illegal activities being undertaken by LVF/UVF/UDA please ring the police”?

Dont ring hugh orde

Robert Keogh

The Army was/is present in Garnerville but as they act in support of the civilian power ie police they must follow their instructions and the police have decided to sit there and do nothing.

CS

Sammy Wilson issued a statement on behalf of the DUP calling for the police to take action against those gathered.

Denny Boy

Who is willing to bet that this astonishing display of mob rule under the noses of the police will be talked about (as here) but not acted against. That no one will be arrested; or if they are, they’ll be released within hours. That unionist politicians will condemn it; that nationalist politicians will demand an inquiry. That none will be forthcoming. That it will all blow over, until …

The local uvf commander must have ok’ed Sammy’s statement prior to release.

Comrade Stalin

Wilson’s statement was ambiguous. What “action” ?

If Wilson had called for a baton charge and arrests, I’d have been more impressed. That is the kind of language I expect from people who support the police. I expect ambiguity, dilly-dallying and minced words from those on the side of the paramilitaries.

headmelter

not a surprising “show of strength”. typical reaction from the RUC. usual response from loyalist/unionist politicians. this place would bore the tits off you sometimes.

beano

Even more boring than the response from the politicians is the “It’s the loyalists fault, no it’s the Ra’s fault” ‘debate’ here. They all need to f**k off and die somewhere, preferably slowly and painfully.

Gum

Are the police here completely spineless? Why wont they take action against such groups? At the very least, they could charge them with membership of illegal organizations. Until the police tackle these groups we will have paramilitaries here FOREVER. We cant allow them to simply move from politics to robbing banks/dealing drugs/forced evictions etc etc

beano; EverythingUlster.com

How do you prove any one of them was part of an illegal organisation “my mates were all just there and I was standing talking to them trying to find out what was going on” (aye, ok).

rentokil

Did you see the state of the place on TV ? Could someone not have given them yard brushes and wheel barrows to make themselves useful whilst they were there ?

Macswiney

This is a complete disgrace. It is now Day 3 of this siege and even the Police Federation are saying that the Police are not in control ! The gang of dole-hopping young drug dealers and paramiltaries who are laying siege should be put out immediately. I cannot imagine a situation where police would fail to intervene if you had 100 Republican paramilitaries laying siege to an estate in similar circumstances. The plastic bullets would have long since been used along with the odd water cannon…

Denny Boy

Gum wrote: “Are the police here completely spineless?”

Hard to tell under all that blubber. This must be the most obese, out-of-shape force I’ve seen outside Mississippi.

Tell me, do they still spend their days sitting about in the cop shop, playing cards and eating takeaways, only venturing forth to “man” speed cameras and to slap parking fines on decent citizens?

Annon

Have you ever stopped to think that the people of the eastate are delighted that the UVF have finnally moved in to sort out the mess that the local PSNI have let happen over the recent year, elderly residents afraid to go out at night or have family visit them because the scumbags of the LVF say they can’t have strangers calling to the area because they wont be able to sell their drugs etc etc. I for one say good on the UVF for doing what the PSNI couldn’t do.

Concerned Loyalist

At the end of the day I hope that there is an end to ALL paramilitarism in my lifetime. I am only 20 years old and hope to be living for a while yet, so am optimistic it can be achieved.

What I, as a Loyalist through and through, needs to see is an apology from the Provos for the pain and anguish they have caused the British people, and words and ACTIONS that would lead me to believe that their “long war” is indeed over. Maybe then young loyalists will do as I have done and refrain from taking part in military actions and instead concentrate on channelling their ill-feelings into the politics of our land.

Southern Republican

Ahem, an apology? I’ll expect yours in the mail for Dublin and Monaghan, the most brutal bombing during the troubles, only murdering civilians. Just because the provos are bigger does’nt mean they are the worst.

As a southern Republican, I now fear Sinn Fein and the PIRA more than any loyalists or british spooks, but this hogwash of apologies will get us nowhere, *IT* happens, how far back are we going to go back on apolgies, for instance there has never been an admittance of guilt in reguarding North Ireland’s apartheid state etc. etc. these things are holding the whole process back, lets move forward knowing that in reality with the right means both sides would have been as bad as each other, doesnt make either side more or less guilty of crimes?

Denny Boy

Concerned Loyalist, being the age you are, you obviously missed the beginning of all the bother. You probably imagine that the Provos emerged fully formed one bright morning, intent on causing maximum pain and destruction.

But I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to understand that this is not how “paramilitarism” works.

Dont ring hugh orde

200 UVF ‘asociates’ have gathered in Ballysillan early this evening. A repeat may be on the cards, wonder if the PSNI response will be anymore response?

Loitering with intent remember that one lads? There is over three of them ‘Illegal assembly’?

Annon

I would not doubt that every word you say about Garnervile is true. However, paramilitarism is paramilitarism. UDA and UVF controlled areas have plenty of drug-dealing going on too. This respite for Garnerville may prove temporary.

As for the PSNI they were ineffective dealing with the LVF. They were ineffective dealing with the UVF. Beyond the issue of paramilitarism we have a police sevice that doesn’t want to police.

bertie

Is there a common understanding of the terms “republican” and “loyalist” in relation to NI. Before I started reading and posting on Slugger it seemed that the only difference between a “republican” and a “nationalist” was that a “republican” supported the terrorism but the “nationalist” didn’t. The same with “loyallist” and “unionist”.

I hear some comments on here like “not all republican support the armed struggle” and similar things from people calling themselves “loyalists”. Whenever I use the term “loyalist” in relation to terrorists because I don’t like the fact that they seem to have hijacked the word. I think that some use the word “republican” in the internationally recognised sence.

What is the Slugger definition of these words?

Southern Republican

Well SDLP are republican. Personally it has more to do with Republicanism that was spawned in America, moved to France, and then to Ireland. The true point of republicanism is a pluralist meritocracy, thus it is poised against any monarchy, or social system which tries to put down any tradition. this crap about republican and nationalist annoys me too. Republicanism is what the SDLP stnad for, Sinn Fein(at least its modern rendition) are communist by nature, with president for life Gerry Adams as there Castro(whom he gets on quite well with). hence in Rep.of Ireland we generally refer to them as Shinners.

bertie

Thanks SR. There was a time when the SDLP called themselves nationalists, but they seem to have started calling themselves republican now. Is that a politcally sexier label?

You seem to be using republican in the internationally understood meaning.

Is that the consensus on Slugger.

What does “republican movement” if the Shinners are not republican?

Southern Republican

Ah yeah much sexier, especially to Fianna Fail ;-).

On slugger it aint the consensus, but that because of obvious reasons, of them being told everyday of SF claim to be republican, so why doubt it.

They should at best call themselves Socialist Republicans, or something like that. in reality they are National Socialists. the “Republican Movement”, in Northern Ireland anyway, is a loose group of people who arguably suffered under the British, but who are controlled by the marxist core…lets call them for the sake of argument the Bolsheviks, who with gun’s and propaganda(usually given to them by the opposite side) control the movement.

bob

“I for one say good on the UVF for doing what the PSNI couldn’t do.”

Annon

You must have been promised a nice big cut of the new supplies of blow which the uvf will start selling in Garnerville now that they are back in control of the drug suppliers in the area.

headmelter

i thought the group of “associates” gathered around the police vehicle told a story of continued collusion.

“Beyond the issue of paramilitarism we have a police sevice that doesn’t want to police.”

I agree, the experience of policing NI style is sitting in the back of heavily armoured meat wagons discussing how brave everyone had been during the ‘war’ and if there was going to be a few more quid added to the severance pay packets.

Dick Doggins

The sdlp are a democratic, authoritarian, left-wing/centrist rightwing, pro-nationalist, anti-republican, Irish unionist/liberal new Ireland, new republican/labour mainly middle class small group of old men, pro- any label that will stop their decline into obscurity…. And get them into power somewhere, anywhere.

Denny Boy

Day 3 of Mob Rule:

“PSNI Chief Superintendent Wesley Wilson said officers were monitoring and controlling the area, taking names of those wearing masks, and gathering evidence.”

Sorry “Southern Republican”, I signed off y’day before responding to your points of view.

In response to me stating that the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist/British people of the United Kingdom (not just Norn Iron) deserve an apology from the Provos for the lives they have taken, the victims they have maimed and the families that are left behind, you said,

“I’ll expect yours in the mail for Dublin and Monaghan, the most brutal bombing in the troubles, murdering only civilians”.

“only murdering civilians”? So it’s ok to murder and maim Loyalists and the security forces?

“I’ll expect yours in the post” – Was I imagining the Combined Loyalist Military Command’s (UDA/UFF, UVF, RHC) ceasefire statement of October 1994 at Fernhill House in the Upper Shankill? I distinctly remember former commander, and one of the founding members of the modern-day UVF, Augustus “Gusty” Spence saying that, “true and abject remorse” was felt by the Loyalist paramilitaries and he apologised on behalf of the C.L.M.C. to “the families of loved ones who were taken away”…is that not an apology “Southern Republican”?

Back to your point about “only murdering civilians”? What about the IRA bombing of the Shankill Road in 1993, carried out by the late (I hope he rots in hell) Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly, who is back where he belongs in Maghabeery.

“only murdering civilians”? What about the Omagh bombing in 1998, carried out, with assistance from the Continuity IRA, by ex-Provo bomb-making experts, including their quarter-master general Michael McKevitt, who left the organisation to form the maverick “Real” IRA.

The list is endless mate, but my point is this. Just as their is no hierarchy of victim (which is why the saturation news coverage of the McCartney and Finucane cases in particular, leave a sour taste in my mouth) there is no hierarchy of atrocity. The Provisional IRA’s murder of UFF commander and UDA 2nd in Command, Brigadier John McMichael, in the late 80s, is no less of an atrocity than the UVF’s bombing of Dublin and Monaghan in 1974, or the October 1993 UFF Greysteel executions in Co. Londonderry, in retaliation for the Shankill bombing.

A life is a life…

Concerned Loyalist

Typo 6th paragraph- Maghaberry, not Maghabeery.

Concerned Loyalist

Typo last paragraph (I should have read this through)- there, not their. I don’t want posters stereotyping me as a “dumb loyalist”

Concerned Loyalist

You said it “Denny Boy”, “Has the NI police force come to this? It’s pathetic”.

The weak, lily livered cowards of the UUP have a lot to answer for. They acquiesced to the report from former Hong Kong governor(what experience has he of Norn Iron’s internal affairs?) Chris Patten, which recommended the complete overhaul of the RUC, including the reduction in numbers of police officers.

The RUC were one of the most skilled and effective police forces in the world whereas the PSNI are one of the biggest jokes…which is why UVF and UDA members needed to come into the esatate and protect the residents of Garnerville from LVF low-lifes.

redpaul

What/ where? Re: the 200 UVF members in Ballysillan last night. No news of it anywhere. Bad rumour /scare mongering, me thinks!

Concerned Loyalist

I have a mate who lives in Ballysillan and he never mentioned it! Ballysillan is a predominantly UDA area, with sizeable support for the UVF also, but there is a smaller LVF element in the area too, so it is possible that it could be true…

Denny Boy

“Chris Patten … recommended the complete overhaul of the RUC, including the reduction in numbers of police officers.”

Yes, damn Patten’s eyes! Now look at what we have: a few tiny teams of armed police in armoured vehicles and a handful of army helicopters squaring up to the overwhelming odds of 100 heavily unarmed loyalists. No contest.

Concerned Loyalist

The RUC pre-Patten would not have stood idly by, that is the point I am making…

Denny Boy

“The RUC pre-Patten would not have stood idly by.”

I know. They’d have gone right in there, guns drawn, batons waving, as they did when they broke the back of the Loyalist Strike of 1974. Those were MEN we had back then!

Annon

To Bob, sorry mate but your wrong I have never did drugs in my life nor do I intend to,but I am sure of one think and its this… you don’t live in Garnerville beside the drug dealing scum bags of the LVF ask the decent people who they were glad to see at the weekend and I bet they tell you it wasn’t the PSNI as this has been going on for well over a year. You could also ask Lisa Dorrian’s parents what they think of the LVF and I’m sure they will tell you, as its near 21 weeks since their daughter was murdered by the LVF and what have the PSNI done about that so far NOTHING.

‘which is why UVF and UDA members needed to come into the esatate and protect the residents of Garnerville from LVF low-lifes.’

Truly wonderful perspective of that particular situation. What did they HAVE to protect the genteel residents of Garnerville from? Was the LVF ripping off the locals on drug prices? Have the UDA rescued the locals from this profiteering monopoly and now offer great drugs at low prices?! Rose-tinted glasses of the ‘highest’ order, have you been sampling the UVF’s merchandise?

Fun forum! Come to think of it, surely our gamut of human emotions is far too wide to be entirely represented by a half-dozen computer keys?

P.S. Some nice hotties among those avatars!

Paul Panther

Annon,

Let’s be real – Lisa Dorrian was murdered by a Red Hand Commadon member from Rathcoole. The LVF connection came in because her phone was found at an LVF man’s house 24 hours after her disappearance. He gave a statement to the cops and wasn’t charged. A man who was once a UDA member from east Belfast helped cover up the killing. These names are well known. Your lack of knowledge on the subject gives away the fact you don’t live in Garnerville and don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

Richard

Clady

Your comments are pretty disgraceful, your contempt for most things ‘non catholic’ is writ large in your postings on a number of subjects, but to demonise the entire population of an estate, who you know nothing about, is poor even by your standards.

Annon

Paul Panther you are right of the mark saying I know no knowledge of the Lisa Dorrian issue, I am well awair of who was/is involved in the murder of Lisa you have no idea who I am or how close I am to the family of the girl, I know each persons name that is connected to the nightmare, including the 17/18 year old from Rathcoole, he is being used as a scape goat for the LVF scum who killed her and don’t have the balls to let her have the funeral she deserves. So don’t tell me who is who nor what the LVF are, They are nothing more than trash/druggies/and thugs who call them selves Loyalists ” I wonder who they are loyal to ” its not the cause for sure.

“They seem to have tactically retreated to defend the next area of conflict.”

Hmm… I can see how that fits in with the quote from the police in the above report –

Superintendent Graham Shields said: “It is the role of the police to uphold the law and protect life and property.” [/sarcasm]

Posted by: peteb at July 27, 2005 09:08 PM

peteb

Don’t quote me on that, Alan :p

Stephen Copeland

Off thread, of course, but tonight’s big news is that Sean Kelly is out of prison.

cladycowboy

Richard,

‘Your comments are pretty disgraceful, your contempt for most things ‘non catholic’ is writ large in your postings on a number of subjects’

Exasperating. There is nothing disgraceful in my comments. The contempt in the post is for the UDA/UVF ‘keep drug-dealing within the union alliance’ and the LVF.

Things ‘non-catholic’? I’m talking about drugs and run-down estates. Are both of these non-catholic? When you say non-catholic, do you in your blinkered mindset mean protestant? I can assure you that any such groups dealing drugs in a predominantly Moslem, Sikh or Buddhist community would receive my equal wrath. The INLA peddle drugs in areas i know, they are detestable individuals, the direct equivalent to the ‘non-catholic’ UDA.

‘but to demonise the entire population of an estate, who you know nothing about, is poor even by your standards.’

The thread is about this estate. I’m not so blinkered as to not acknowledge that this sort of stuff happens in ‘catholic’ estates also. Are you going to suggest to the site that drug-dealing and consumption is not a regular feature of run-down estates in our fair province?

I say it to you now that i do not follow any branch of Christianity and your cheap shots about religious bigotry are just that. Where else have i shown contempt for ‘non-catholics’? I believe in an United Ireland and don’t like drug-dealers, sorry if you think that excludes non-catholics.

Denny Boy

“Pete B has just shown us the official Slugger emoticon in another thread … [/sarcasm]”

You don’t surely expect a man of my discernment to use anything so barn-door obvious, do you? It’s like a comedian prefacing a joke with the phrase: “This is a joke.”

And note that my own little emoticon :-/ actually shares that all-important backward slash and is a sight quicker to type….

bob

“you don’t live in Garnerville beside the drug dealing scum bags of the LVF”

annon

So the uvf are a better brand of drug dealing scum bags.??

Most of the illegal drugs sold in East Belfast are sold by people in or connected to the uvf

headmelter

Annon,

“I wonder who they are loyal to ” its not the cause for sure.”

please explain what ’cause’ this might be.

Southern Republican

To “Concerned Loyalist”, I too logged off before responding to your atempt of a flame, did you not read a word of my post? And no to me a civilian murdered is worse, for obvious reasons all otheres be the security forces or paramilitaries have chosen to fight, defend their corner, if they are willing to take a life they should be willing to give theres up.

The point of my post was that both sides commited atrocities, thus if you want an apology, then you should want an apology sent to all nationalists murdered, Irish Soildiers murdered, Irish civilians murdered, and by your logic of the “woh is me loyalists” all republican murdered.

A life is a life C.L. you are correct so why won’t you treat them equally.

Just because i’m republican does’nt mean im pro-ira, just as I hope being a “concerned” loyalist doesnt mean you are pro-loyalist mob.(I say mb asa there is so many diffrent groups).