The Evilest of Days

At the end of October comes a day so horrible and unthinkably evil that it is only spoken of in whispers by fundamentalists. Some go so far as to completely misconstrue the purpose and history behind this day and to claim that they have not been nor will ever be any part of it. I’m speaking, of course, of the celebration of Reformation Day.

Fundamentalists have mixed feelings about the Reformation in general. On the one hand they do dearly love church splits and anything that makes the Pope angry. On the other hand, the Reformation is what gave us Lutherans. Fundies tend to somewhat admire Martin Luther (they do dearly love a rebel as long as the rebellion isn’t against them) apart from his propensity for beer, rough language, and public consubstatiation. They do not, however, have much love in general for anybody who can claim Luther as their spiritual ancestor.

My recommendation for tonight is that you visit your local fundamentalist Harvest Festival (which is coincidentally planned to fall on the same night as that other holiday) dressed as one of the Reformers and reciting the text of Martin Luther’s challenge to “sin boldly.” Find the pastor and suggest that everybody pause to observe the Eucharist. Loudly ask where the beer is and suggest that it might be a good idea to hold baptisms in it. As far as fundamentalists are concerned it will be one of the scariest things they’ve ever experienced.

Ecclesia semper reformanda. Fundamentalists assure me that the best translation of this is “Tracts are better than candy apples.” Make of this what you will.

One of my favorite Luther quotes. My spouse still insists Luther would not have been so crass as to have used “ass” to refer to the buttocks. Then again, all he knows about Luther is that he nailed those theses to the church door like a BOSS!

No, no — in British English (plus Australian English, New Zealand English, and basically Anywhere But American English) “ass” is NEVER used to refer to your bottom: it means “donkey”, and nothing else. The crass term is “arse”; the less-rude alternative is “bum”.

I spent the day with my granddaughters (took them out for Chinese food, which was hilarious- they’re almost 2 and messy eaters. I left a VERY big tip!) and was making the 120-mile drive home during trick-or-treat time. My roommate reported no small beggars.

We dressed our kids up and even took them trick or treating (usually at a mall) while we were still in Fundystan. We got the occasional “disappointed look”, but several other members seemed to wish they could do the same thing. Due to staff position or “most favored family” status, they could not dare to break ranks on the issue.

But I knew they would if they could…

These are the people I think will one day break free from their self-imposed prison of obedience to a mannogid.

Good ol’ Martin Luther. I may disagree with him on a few of his beliefs, but by and large, I have to recognize the importance of his contributions to theological history. Well, presumably God’s contributions to theological history, through the tool of Luther.

I’m curious, does the IFB recognize that their movement, being a Protestant one, grew out of the Reformation Luther sparked? Or do they pretend he had no effect at all?

I was taught in an Ecclesiology class in an IFB concentration camp (er, college) that yes, indeed, IFB predated the Roman Catholic church and that the IFBers were descendents of the REAL first-century church. Can’t believe I actually paid money to hear this stuff…sad. 🙁

When I attended, WCBC “Baptist History” was a required class taught by Dr. John Goetsch. The required reading was “America in Crimson Red.”

What confused me was that nearly one half the book was dedicated to “Baptists” in Europe, not America, and nearly every one of those “Baptists” was someone who had left the Catholic church during the reformation… which then made them “Protestants” by their own definition.

Sad, I thought Dr. Goestch would have had enough intellectual honesty to acknowledge this fact.

IMHO, Goetsch has exhibited very little intellectual honesty. For example, his treatment of Calvinism was so completely lame – nothing but a simple strawman that would be easy for him to destroy with mere cliches.

One does not have to be a Calvinist to see how badly this college VP, who should be a scholar, dealt with the topic.

Like Darrel said, most hard-core Baptists will tell you they aren’t Protestant. Even the ones who don’t necessarily follow the Trail of Blood will trace their history back through the Anabaptist movement and say that they or their “ancestors” always existed outside the Catholic Church. While maybe technically correct that they were not part of Luther’s Reform, they are a product of the Reformation period. Luther was not the only one during that time to see error in the Church, just the most visible symbol many years later. Calvin, Hus, Zwingli, Knox, and others were also leaders in Church Reform.

While there has always existed Christians outside of the Catholic Church, without the Protestant Reformation (or something similar), Baptist Churches as we know them today would not exist.

The anabaptists had some really, really weird theology. I had to read quite a few for church history. Another interesting character that is hard to categorize was Herman Muntzer, who started the Peasants’ Revolt. I wrote a paper on him, arguing that the war was a natural consequence of his (faulty) theological anthropology. Interestingly, the gemeinden of upper rural Hess did not participate, as their communal structure protected against the abuses Muntzer railed against (actually, it is widely believed that he was trying to nationalize the gemeinden concept. David Mayes has an excellent book published by Brill on the subject. Anyway, Muntzer’s language made Luther sound like a school-girl. Muntzer called the Roman clergy such interesting things as “donkey cunt”, “scrotum”, and “diarrhea maker”. Nice fellow.

Typical ignoramus poster at this site, getting his theology from The Munsters! You people really are one sack short of a happy meal. What’s next, you’re going to spread some outlandish conspiracy theory such as Marilyn Munster’s mom was the US Treasurer or something like that?

Uh, that’s Herman Muntzer, a real person, that he was talking about. I was just asking if the fictional Herman Munster was named after him. Actually reading what is posted carefully could go a long way. You might want to try it sometime.

Christians have to realize that, without Martin Luther, we would’t be where we are today. It doesn’t matter if he did the other stuff. The reformation wouldn’t have made it without something so strong as his stand. I’m not even a Lutheran and I understand that. The lack of history that some people show is unfortunate and disturbing.

Martin Luther gave his name to Martin Luther King, and the Fundy jury is still out on how to react to him. On the one hand he did stand up for his beliefs and was persecuted for them like any good Christian should be, even getting to die a martyr’s death 😥 . On the other hand, there’s the fact that, well, 😯 … and that Dr. King and his people actually had to deal with real, hands-on persecution 👿 as opposed to the Devil’s Slings & Arrows of Worldly People Ignoring the Gospel 🙄

I was just looking at Dr. King from a fundy point of view. Somehow, in Fundystan it is just bad form to take a public stand for a real cause as opposed to “standing up for JAY-zus”, 🙄 and to face real flesh-and-blood opposition, not to mention the messy business of dying. 😥 Somehow actually going through with Christian resolve instead of just ranting about the World and the Devil, is bad, bad manners when your Man O’God image is at stake 😡 .

I never knew that this was Reformation Day. I also learned a new word – “consubstantiation”. I am going to have to work that into a conversation somehow. 😎
It’s interesting to note how Luther could be included in the “Trail of Blood” but then IFBers castigate his followers so well. That never did make sense to me, even as a fundy.
This is another great post, and I love the mouseover text.

Anybody else ever notice that in the IFB, we rant and rave about the evil and worldliness of Halloween, but then we turn around and celebrate it in our own way? In chapel in school, we have had a sermon series the whole last two weeks about “ghosts and goblins in the Bible”. We have been told from the pulpit that this is in honor of Halloween. We have learned about the spirit of Samuel being raised by the witch of Endor, the mad man of Gedera, and even the “spirit” (angel) that Balaam’s ass saw. We were told that the Bible provides better entertainment than “Hell-y wood” movies. That, to me, is just sacrilegious.

On the other hand, it is hilarious watching the high school/junior high school kids trying to keep a straight face while repeatedly hearing the word “ass”!

Yeah–after figuring out there wasn’t really a “s” there, I looked up pericope. Turns out it was something pastors were likely to get together and do over pizza and beer, but not in submarines. Might have been fun, though.

We celebrate Reformation Day by sitting in our driveway handing out candy to all the little religious pilgrims in our neighborhood, who dress as their patron saints. Their patron saints tend towards princesses and superheros, surprisingly, but we roll with that. As it gets darker, my husband sets up his telescope and gives folks a peek at whatever happens to be visible up there, usually Jupiter this time of year, to celebrate Galileo’s escape from Catholic persecution. Or something.

My fundy church always had a fall festival which included a spook trail put on by the staff and teens. It contained chainsaws and demons and scary such stuff. But come sunday morning we would hear all about come out of the world and be ye seperate and bless god you better not be going to any juke joints on saturday night and show up on sunday morning acting all innocent when god knows where you have been and what you have been doing. Really?!! But I guess its ok to have a spook trail because the mog said it was ok. Hmmm. Just saying.

Yeah, Episcopalians do it too. And after the Scripture is read, “Thanks be to God!”

Which brings me to a funny story. A couple of years ago, Sting came to Portland on tour. I LOVE his work, and scraped up the money for a nosebleed-seat ticket (The Schnitz isn’t a very big hall, so it was still not a bad seat). It was the first ‘rock’ concert I’d ever been to, though only about half of his stuff is really rock. Anyway, he wrote a song called ‘Mad About You’, and it’s David singing about Bathsheba. He introduced it by reading the story from Samuel, and then he turned the page on his music stand and said “Here endeth the lesson.”

Every liturgical Christian in the hall reflexively said “Thanks be to God!”

I cracked up. The woman in front of me clearly didn’t get the joke because she turned and frowned at me. But I have a very… distinctive laugh, and it was clear that I was heard on the stage, because Sting looked up, grinned, and shook his finger at me…

Having been raised in a fundy home with fundy schooling my history of the Reformation is very minimal. Does anyone know any good resources to learn about the Reformation from a non-fundy point of view?

There is also a LOT of good stuff at the Internet Sourcebook (A site for medievalists) as they have a substantial section on the Reformation- DEFINITELY not from a fundy point of view. http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/sbook1y.asp

As you begin your study, and [hopefully] without causing controversy, I’d mention that there is an ‘in-house’ controversy as to what can be called ‘reformed’ theology. I say this because ‘Monergism’ is home to two, very different theological systems.

If I could be forgiven for hugely oversimplifying many things, the question is whether the famed ‘five points’ alone may constitute ‘reformed theology,’ or whether reformed theology is defined by the confessions, catechisms and writings of the magisterial reformers.

On a Wartburg Watch blog entry, ‘John Piper: What’s Love Got To Do With It,’ I made several lengthy [and shorter] posts for the later view. John Piper is referenced in the article title as he [as I understand it] contends for the former view. You can access this at:

As I see it, this question makes a huge difference for defining the faith that we hold, the way we hold it, and the spirit in which we hold it. As I wrote on the WW blog:

’This has profound implications for many parts of doctrine, including [but not limited to] the doctrine of the sacraments [including infant baptism and the Eucharist], one’s philosophy of ministry, the nature of the Christian life, the role of ecclesiastical discipline, the church doctrine of assurance [understood as God’s perseverance for us, plus ONE covenant of grace from Abraham into the eschaton].’

One reply described an attitude that IFB/exIFBs see all too often!

‘Until about 5 years ago, I had absolutely no problem with the Reformed tradition … Now, the problem is loud, arrogant and all around us … many churches are now led by the YRR crowd, complete with emphasis on church discipline and an aversion to answering questions which is now known as “the sin of asking questions.’

‘The “normal” Reformed dropped th ball and allowed this new group, who we call the Calvinistas, to define the terms. How do I know? Ask the average “evangelical” and see who they quote.’

‘The crowd we are addressing at this blog is not the nice Presbyterian pastor down the street who would agree with you and be gracious to any believer. We are going after the ones who would look at that Presbyterian and make some snide comment about his “election.”’

Smell the ‘IFB’ game plan, refitted for ‘Calvinistic’ consumption!

Piper is named in the WW post as representative of that attitudinal problem and the theological issues behind it. Monergism is home to articles written from Piper’s perspective. I want to avoid at all cost any hint of censure for SFL participant, ‘Reformed Baptist.’ For Jesus’ sake, RB must be allowed to hold his convictions in good conscience.

This forum does not need this debate, and I want to offend no one on this point. I do want you to be aware of this as you begin your work.

Calvin College hosts this site. Don’t let the clean appearance fool you. This site is HUGE.

Christian Socialist
Thanks for the great explanation. I grew up IFB and am now a deacon in the Reformed Church in America. Most of us “normal” reformed up here in the “Mini-Bible-Belt” don’t have much use for Calvinista’s.

You are in a good place. While I am not RCA, my eldest [Hope College undergrad] is.

The Presbyterian family of churches are genuinely reformed churches, but the Dutch churches hold their reformed faith differently. I have been both places but settled on a tradition very near your own. For me, the Dutch path is a better fit.

I love the way covenant-kingdom functions in the continental [European] Reformed faith.

You are in a good place, voluntary Outcast. Breath God’s good air. Relax. Grow in grace and faith!

I have to confess my sins here… when I was growing up, we not only celebrated Halloween, but we dressed up as witches and ghosts. For a young boy, dressing up as a witch is doubly-cursed – Satanism combined with cross-dressing. **gasp**

There are times I am thankful that I didn’t grow up in a Christian home — I think I had a fairly normal childhood.

It pleased God to work in my life to get me into church when I was in high school.

it’s ok. I’m female, and I was Batman throughout my entire elementary school years (my parents cheaped out on costumes, and the Batman cape wasn’t size restrictive.)
That was before we started attending the more fundy church of my preteen/teen years.

I think I’m going to be lighting candles in remembrance tonight. I saw it referenced while watching “Hallowe’en Party” by Agatha Christie (which I will also watch tonight! ) and I think that it was a terrific idea! If anyone has candy to pass out, however, I will not be opposed to getting some! 😀

I celebrated last Halloween by getting back to my fundy roots and going to a judgment house. Funny story . . . there was a guy dressed up as Jesus who was supposed to welcome you into “heaven” (aka the church auditorium) by putting his hands on your shoulders and saying welcome home. Well “Jesus” was inordinately good looking for this sort of role, and of course I and all the other females with me made all sorts of giggly comments about his attractiveness. So he puts his hands on my shoulders, makes eye contact, but before he can say “Welcome Home” I collapse into a fit of nervous giggles (caused by remarks that were recently whispered into my ear) and I have to leave the room lest I spoil “heaven” for everyone else.
Fundy memory from further back: Halloween night, all the kids in my church’s Bible club dress as Bible characters. (It’s called Bible Dressup Night and the connection with the Halloween tradition is never explicitly made.) Everyone is supposed to guess who they are. Nobody has any clue who anybody is because everyone is wearing a bathrobe and a towel on their heads. Lots of candy and cupcakes and brownies for all.

I dunno but I don’t think he ate cupcakes with orange frosting . . .
One year a girl dressed as Jezebel. The cognitive dissonance there is astounding (we won’t have our kid participate in a worldly holiday, so she can be Jezebel at church) is hilarious.

This is why some of us went to Bible character costume contests with props… I had a “real” bible person costume (robe and fabric not towel headdress) that I had gone as Ruth the previous year (no props for that one so no one knew who I was) so the next year I went as either Moses’s mother (or sister, I cant remember) and had a baby doll in a basket with reeds sticking out of it… I won 🙂

Of course I rather thought my dad had the more interesting costume that year (but adults couldn’t compete) he had a towel on his head and a box cut and decorated (well slightly) to look like a whale and he was Jonah IN the whale 🙂

(only other thing I remember about that year – one of the youngest “bus kids” had come In a Barbie princess costume and I felt so bad for her when she had to tell who she was in the costume contest – no one gave her a hard time (we weren’t fundy actually) but I still feel bad about it… I thought the other day that maybe someone should have helped her determine that she was Esther or something…but then I couldn’t decide if that would have been worse,,, anyway clearly I was bother by the whole situation for her to still feel bad/awkward about it 20 years later!)

You mean a helicopter gunship armed with chemical weapons and piloted by a long-haired bearded hippie?

Or go double-duty as a “changeling” from the My Little Pony Season 2 capper (Royal Wedding). Then you could pull double duty — changeling to the Bronies for Nightmare Night and Locust of Revelation for Christianese Harvest Festival.

Yes, because Trunk or Treat where we get dressed in costumes and go to each car to get candy is SUCH a more Christian alternative than going Trick or Treat where we get dressed in costumes….and….go to each….. Hmm.

Contrary to urban legends and horror movies, Halloween is actually one of the safest nights of the year.

There are no recorded events in the U.S. of children getting Halloween treats from stangers that contained poison, razor blades, or other adulterants. Cases of children being assaulted or kidnapped by strangers while Trick-or-Treating are also vanishingly rare.

Obviously, you shouldn’t send small children out to Trick-or-Treat without supervision (you wouldn’t on any other night, would you?). But you also shouldn’t get freaked out about dangers that hardly exist.

idk . . . my mom used to personally inspect every piece of candy I received for having been opened/tampered with. She seemed to think the end of the wrapper could be cleverly opened, razor blade inserted, and no one would be the wiser.

Growing up mired in fundamentalism, I dont recall learning much of anything about the reformation other than the surface stuff of Luther nailing his 95 thesis to the church door. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention? I suspect that it just isnt important to fundies because they know the catholic church is wrong about everything anyways (ignoring that their precious cannon came from these same people).

Is it just me? but here recently pondering the fact that there even was a “reformation” just hits me as suspicious of the whole institutionalized religions. 😕

I was always taught that the Reformation was when CATHOLICS learned their place (which is in the pit of hell, if anyone wondered) and PROTESTANTS set in motion a sweeping wave of Bible Reading, Salvation and Revival.
Now some of these Protestants might not have believed just like we do (the differences were always left delicately unspecified) but God used them anyway. The same logic applies throughout history until you get to Billy Graham, at which point we must radically separate from anyone who doesn’t part their hair like we do.

Ah, yes, but you see, those Protestants eventually became Lutherans or whatever, and it really doesn’t matter because the ones who didn’t become fundies might as well be Catholics because they’re not fundies.

I prefer dressing up as one of the mandatory Bible Characters that they always demand. Only instead of a Disciple or a Prophet I try to go as the Ten-Headed beast from Daniels vision, or the Whore of Babylon. Occasionally a headless Paul if I can find a good makeup artist

Being raised Lutheran and then (naively) attending a rather conservative Bible college, I was shocked to discover fundies’ feelings towards Lutherans and Luther himself. I once heard a classmate refer to Lutherans as “half-Christian,” and everyone was very wary of giving Martin Luther or the Reformation too much credit. Only my fellow history majors seemed to care about the importance of the Reformation.

Nowadays as often as not there’s a community ‘safe’ Halloween party at the library, so that wouldn’t work. Mall either. Could hold a prayer meeting and pray for those reprobates who were out begging candy and celebrating Satan’s day…

In another 600 years, the names of Jack Hyles, Lester Roloff, etc, etc will be lost to history…but the name of Martin Luther will still be spoken of with reverence. I bet this really chaps the ass of the IFBXers because they know it to be true. The “influence” of these MOGs is usually no more than one generation…owing to the fact that their shallow, man-made theology has no staying power and they made their names via their personalities, not their teachings.

Do to a FB post I answered to today. I had to defend why I teach my kids how wonderful Reformation Day is. I got a rebuttal from someone I don’t know declaring that “as baptist we should not celebrate this day cause Luther only reformed the Catholic Church and on about how the reformed people burned the Baptist at the steak…” I of corse have soooo much fun with people like this. BTW getting burned at the steak was an equal pouty unity way to die back in the day Protestant, catholic, Dunkers it only mattered who was in the mood at the moment.

I pulled my old culottes out of purgatory(yes, still have them for such an occasion)can’t forget the pantyhose w/tennis socks and shoes! Put on old choir blouse, grabbed Bible cover and scared the liv’in daylights outta the neighbor kids!

Some Brothers to Martin Luther: ‘Some of the brothers are talking. they’re saying that you spend too much time at the pub, and that you drink too much ale…’

Martin Luther to some Brothers: ‘Which do you think is better — to be sitting in Church thinking about drinking ale at the pub, or to be at the pub drinking ale, thinking about the praises of God in church?’