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I really enjoyed the classes on Friday and Saturday (I had to be somewhere else on Sunday, unfortunately), and was very glad to have seen Ikeda Sensei for the first time. He has a very nice, confident but modest, presence in the class, and I loved his sense of humour.

After following Kanetsuka Sensei for more than thirty years, I think the message that Ikeda Sensei was getting over was pretty much identical: take uke's strength away on first contact or earlier if possible, and don't fight with your partner. On my few chances for contact with Ikeda Sensei over the weekend I think the feeling is pretty similar to what I feel from Kanetsuka Sensei too - a sensation of real power, but not of where the power comes from.

The difference is that Ikeda does the same thing again and again, and tells you what he is doing. Yet, at the same time, I don't think that either teacher tells you what they are really doing, or how to get there. Ikeda says "find partner's tailbone", but not how to find partner's tailbone. Nor does he give any hints of how he has developed the connections in his body to be able to make that connection, which disappointed me (though I would guess that he gives this information out more readily in smaller classes).

I had a nice practice with many people on the mat in Coventry, and although there were one or two people I encountered who definitely weren't on the path (!!), I thought there was overall a very friendly and open feeling on the mat. I definitely feel I have some new input into my own practice, and lots of stuff I want to work on.

A big thanks to John Burn for organising this event, a great venue and a very worthwhile event for all who attended.

I found Ikeda Sensei to be a very good humoured and generous teacher, who can demonstrate the higher levels of aikido, that many of us are striving for. I also found his teaching to be consistent with what I have learnt from my own teacher of 20 years and from time spent with Dan (all slightly different, all very powerfull)

One thing that he emphasised consistently, was the importance of the mind (he used the term brain) in all encounters. The body must be connected, but it needs the mind to lead it. I really enjoyed the focus on using intent, directed to different parts of uke to effect them in different ways. I'm going to have some good fun playing with this when I get back to my reguar students. Again this practice was consistent with what I have been used to, but has given me more scope and a greater awareness of dealing with the 'fighting-time'.

It was good to practice with so many people, from so many different backgrounds, however, like Alex mentioned above, some seemed to be on a different page from the one Ikeda was teaching from. I encountered some purely brute strength attempts to make the techniques work, that led me to wonder whether we were practicing the same art.

Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend anyone who gets the opportunity, to spend some time with Ikeda Sensei, a real gentleman and an excellent aikidoka.

So did Ikeda sensei explain how he did what he does?
Did he elaborate on "move the inside"?
Were you able to reproduce what he did?
If not, why not?

I woud say, personally, "no" to the first two questions, although some may have understood more of what he was saying than I did.

I don't know whether what I was doing was in any way similar to what Ikeda Sensei was doing, since I can't feel what my uke was feeling, nor what his uke felt, although with at least half of the partners I practised with I could get something of a similar effect. I know I was using too much muscle in most cases, though, and the success of my efforts was not nearly as consistent or reliable as what I was seeing with Ikeda Sensei.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I thought there were some big gaps in Ikeda Sensei's explanations of how he was doing what he did, and most people on the mat at the weekend wouldn't have been able to put the pieces together (even in the longer term) to reproduce his kokyu. All the same, I felt I touched the essence of what he was doing, and know what I need to work on (if not necessarily exactly how to do that!).

So did Ikeda sensei explain how he did what he does?
Did he elaborate on "move the inside"?
Were you able to reproduce what he did?
If not, why not?

Hi Patrick,

Well, I had a little more hands on time with Ikeda sensei since he was staying at my house with me. I think that he tells everyone exactly what to do, only we're not very good at listening to him! Make a line, shift, move inside, make tight etc. He says those things a lot, he says them for good reason, they're actually pretty accurate in terms of what we're supposed to be doing (on the physical level).

Maybe it's because I have met Mike Sigman too, I think he perfectly explains what Ikeda sensei is doing to the point that a lightbulb should be going off in your head once you've met both, in my opinion, they compliment each other perfectly. Certainly, after meeting Mike and playing with Jin on most lessons in the last 12 months then I think we all complicate things too much - I asked Ikeda sensei a few years back to explain to me what a line was, he kept saying it's just a line, it's just a line. You know what? It is just a line .

I can't do anything nearly as well as Ikeda sensei, but I am fairly sure I know what he's doing and yes, I can reproduce things on some level or other.

So did Ikeda sensei explain how he did what he does?
Did he elaborate on "move the inside"?
Were you able to reproduce what he did?
If not, why not?

Hi Patrick,

In answer to the first question, I felt that he did explain how he was doing what he was doing. Whether people got what he was explaining was a different matter. He used many different exercises to illustrate essentially the same points. Unity of self first, directed intent, whole mind/body movement. All focus was on breaking uke's balance on contact.

On the question of "move the inside" he showed different ways of moving the body, and moving energy around the body, then how to diminish the external movement, whilst keeping the mental aspect of the movement going. This will have made more sense to some, than to others. I think if you have had no previous exposure to this concept, it may well have been a struggle.

Was I able to reproduce what he did? on the whole yes, (maybe not to the same degree), and as in all learning situations for me, I am focussed on trying to reproduce what has been shown and am acutely aware of my own tensions and any disconnections. I know once I get back into teaching mode, I will have more success.

As I have mentioned in my previous post. A great deal of focus was placed on the importance of 'mind' in this training. I got to practice with many people over the course of the seminar, a substantial portion of whom seemed to rely solely on the physical strength of the body. All I can think of is that, the mental aspect of aikido is not part of their regular practice, or if it is, they just don't go there.

I would note though, that Dan's explanations and exercises focussed on dantien movement, are more accessable and easier to get to grips with.

Well, I had a little more hands on time with Ikeda sensei since he was staying at my house with me. I think that he tells everyone exactly what to do, only we're not very good at listening to him! Make a line, shift, move inside, make tight etc. He says those things a lot, he says them for good reason, they're actually pretty accurate in terms of what we're supposed to be doing (on the physical level).

Maybe it's because I have met Mike Sigman too, I think he perfectly explains what Ikeda sensei is doing to the point that a lightbulb should be going off in your head once you've met both, in my opinion, they compliment each other perfectly. Certainly, after meeting Mike and playing with Jin on most lessons in the last 12 months then I think we all complicate things too much - I asked Ikeda sensei a few years back to explain to me what a line was, he kept saying it's just a line, it's just a line. You know what? It is just a line .

I can't do anything nearly as well as Ikeda sensei, but I am fairly sure I know what he's doing and yes, I can reproduce things on some level or other.

Hi John - thanks for your view on things.

I think the big question about this kind of practice is whether repeating it again and again will get you there. People like Dan and Mike talk all the time about the need for regular solo practice to develop these "lines" internally (and Kanetsuka Sensei among others keeps hinting at this too), but Ikeda Sensei didn't talk much about this aspect at all - not in the classes I was in, at least .

As I have mentioned in my previous post. A great deal of focus was placed on the importance of 'mind' in this training. I got to practice with many people over the course of the seminar, a substantial portion of whom seemed to rely solely on the physical strength of the body. All I can think of is that, the mental aspect of aikido is not part of their regular practice, or if it is, they just don't go there.

I think you have a point Mark, just as a lot of those people who might look at some of the stuffs done and say all well and good....but would it save your ass?

I'd say a lot of people felt better than me at the connectivity stuff., to me anyway..but if it was 'for real' my money would be on my trusty right cross.

Not trying to get into an arguement...its been played out across countless threads on Aikiweb and other forums in the past but I see nothing to be gained in outing those with a different background....and much to be lost if they are offended by perceived criticism of what they and their teachers do. So if you feel your practice is more in line with this stuff than other good for you but lets not be too harsh on others with a background that is perhaps......more 'functional' in approach.

Lets just applaud those that come from a different background for venturing outside of normal parameters and daring to be different. Ikeda himself said it was difficult stuff , just take what you can and next time it will be a little easier.

I think the big question about this kind of practice is whether repeating it again and again will get you there. People like Dan and Mike talk all the time about the need for regular solo practice to develop these "lines" internally (and Kanetsuka Sensei among others keeps hinting at this too), but Ikeda Sensei didn't talk much about this aspect at all - not in the classes I was in, at least .

Alex

Hi Alex

My training with Dan helped immensely.

Its also helped understand Kanetsuka Senseis demo at the Doshu course in 2010 and I am convinced he was showing the same stuff to an audience that on the whole might not have understood.

In Ikeda course with my limited appreciation I could still see things that directly matched Dans stuff and explanations.

There was also a lot of stuff that I couldn't really do very well...sometimes I just accepted this and didn't complete the work...I'm sure others will have got frustrated and resorted to muscling it...its understandable though I think....without Dans input I'd have been far far worse though.

Anyway - I'm not convinced just repeating the stuff will get you there....but training with someone that explains what you do, gives you exercises to train your body to do it and then demonstates how you use the stuff. ......This is the way forward for me !

I think you have a point Mark, just as a lot of those people who might look at some of the stuffs done and say all well and good....but would it save your ass?

I'd say a lot of people felt better than me at the connectivity stuff., to me anyway..but if it was 'for real' my money would be on my trusty right cross.

Not trying to get into an arguement...its been played out across countless threads on Aikiweb and other forums in the past but I see nothing to be gained in outing those with a different background....and much to be lost if they are offended by perceived criticism of what they and their teachers do. So if you feel your practice is more in line with this stuff than other good for you but lets not be too harsh on others with a background that is perhaps......more 'functional' in approach.

Lets just applaud those that come from a different background for venturing outside of normal parameters and daring to be different. Ikeda himself said it was difficult stuff , just take what you can and next time it will be a little easier.

Sounds good advice to me.

Thanks for the practice by the way.

Cheers

D

Hi Darren,

I applaude all of those venturing outside of their normal parameters (as you know I include myself in this).

I was not intending my comments to be taken as criticism, they were rather, 'observations' in response to Patricks questions. I feel lucky to have had the 'mental' aspect inherent in my practice. However, I am having to learn the 'harder' more pressure side, so from that perspective, I am a relative beginner.

I hope no one takes offence, as none was intended. We are all students of this stuff, and mastery is something that only comes with a great deal of practice.

I thought the whole weekend was really good. I'm sure all who were there will take away a great deal to work on.

I applaude all of those venturing outside of their normal parameters (as you know I include myself in this).

I was not intending my comments to be taken as criticism, they were rather, 'observations' in response to Patricks questions. I feel lucky to have had the 'mental' aspect inherent in my practice. However, I am having to learn the 'harder' more pressure side, so from that perspective, I am a relative beginner.

I hope no one takes offence, as none was intended. We are all students of this stuff, and mastery is something that only comes with a great deal of practice.

I thought the whole weekend was really good. I'm sure all who were there will take away a great deal to work on.

Thanks for the practice too, I look forward to the next one,

cheers,

Mark

Cheers Mark

I'm quite defensive of the muscling fraternity, due to my close similarity to Arnie Schwartzenneger...so thanks for clearing that up.

I think the big question about this kind of practice is whether repeating it again and again will get you there. People like Dan and Mike talk all the time about the need for regular solo practice to develop these "lines" internally (and Kanetsuka Sensei among others keeps hinting at this too), but Ikeda Sensei didn't talk much about this aspect at all - not in the classes I was in, at least .

Alex

Hi Alex,

I think he demonstrated quite a few exercises over the weekend, the ball things he does (looks like he's body popping), the shifting, the moving inside / wave kind of exercise... All of those can be done solo like he said and with a wall or a solid partner to get the hang of them.

One of the things I like about Ikeda sensei is if you don't get something, ask him, he'll usually give you some ideas to work on .

Have to say I felt a large range of people from all sorts of backgrounds and a lot of people were convinced this is what they do anyway... It's the same thing... ahhhh, we do this... I didn't get to feel so many people with a good, well connected body if I'm being honest (from an uke's point of view). Most people were moving from forearm and shoulder, I felt little coming from people's centers... But then, isn't that the point of all this? We can go back and try.

I think the big question about this kind of practice is whether repeating it again and again will get you there. People like Dan and Mike talk all the time about the need for regular solo practice to develop these "lines" internally (and Kanetsuka Sensei among others keeps hinting at this too), but Ikeda Sensei didn't talk much about this aspect at all - not in the classes I was in, at least .

Alex

If you look at how Dan, Bill Gleason, Howard Popkin Ikeda Sensei etc teach, it seems to me the focus is on getting you to feel it first, then follow that up with a consistent solo practice that "burns in" the body habits. For myself anyway, it was the paired connection exercises in which every change I made with my mind / body instantly reflected back to me what I was or was not doing that really made me understand what I was trying to do. Now that I know more about what it's supposed to feel like and what it even means to have different parts of the tissue structure really connect, I can do solo work and have it make sense to me. I really think that this is what Ikeda Sensei's trying to do, get you to feel it in the first place.

As for the folks that think they're doing this already... well, it's up to the uke to give the proper feedback that shows where this is true or not. Ikeda Sensei's ukes are not "tanking" for him. The Uke role in this type of learning is very important. The uke needs to give good connection. If you run into their structure, they shouldn't move, if they get it right you don't "mess with them" you let them feel the result of what they are doing. As they get better, you can provide them with a connection that has more structure so they have to get better. But it isn't your intention to screw them up and it isn't worth anything if you are "tanking". That's why its best to get time with the folks who are well ahead of you in this process. They can tell what you are doing, give you just enough juice that you have to put another piece together but not so much that you are just getting shut down (unless you are really screwing up). The ukes job is to facilitate your learning. When two partners train together and both are clueless, the process gets pretty screwed up.

Hi All
I believe that Ikeda Sensei's explanations are quite straightforward and, in some way, simple. This is why he is such a great teacher and manages to stimulate big audiences in seminars all over the world.
That said, I am not stating here that I manage to do all he explains but again I think this is due to my lack of (daily) practice in these terms.
Sensei tells us a lot of times that the Dojo is like a laboratory, we should experiment. Well, most of the times in our Dojo we hardly have time to do that because most of times the focus is driven differently... and this is not Ikeda Sensei's fault.
I remember the first week long seminar with Ikeda Sensei teaching and thinking to myself (in frustration): "are we not going to do anything else other than katate dori...". After some years of practice I learned to appreciate more and more Sensei's teachings and this is mainly due to the fact that my teacher was in tune to this kind of practice.
Regards

If you look at how Dan, Bill Gleason, Howard Popkin Ikeda Sensei etc teach, it seems to me the focus is on getting you to feel it first, then follow that up with a consistent solo practice that "burns in" the body habits. For myself anyway, it was the paired connection exercises in which every change I made with my mind / body instantly reflected back to me what I was or was not doing that really made me understand what I was trying to do. Now that I know more about what it's supposed to feel like and what it even means to have different parts of the tissue structure really connect, I can do solo work and have it make sense to me. I really think that this is what Ikeda Sensei's trying to do, get you to feel it in the first place.

As for the folks that think they're doing this already... well, it's up to the uke to give the proper feedback that shows where this is true or not. Ikeda Sensei's ukes are not "tanking" for him. The Uke role in this type of learning is very important. The uke needs to give good connection. If you run into their structure, they shouldn't move, if they get it right you don't "mess with them" you let them feel the result of what they are doing. As they get better, you can provide them with a connection that has more structure so they have to get better. But it isn't your intention to screw them up and it isn't worth anything if you are "tanking". That's why its best to get time with the folks who are well ahead of you in this process. They can tell what you are doing, give you just enough juice that you have to put another piece together but not so much that you are just getting shut down (unless you are really screwing up). The ukes job is to facilitate your learning. When two partners train together and both are clueless, the process gets pretty screwed up.

Hi George,

That makes a lot of sense. Ikeda Sensei's teaching really does come across like a "system", which is quite unusual in my experience. Unfortunately "folks who are well ahead of you in this process" are in short supply over here!

It is obvious that Ikeda Sensei's ukes aren't "tanking" for him - he drummed this into us for long enough, and my one session of taking ukemi for me confirmed this.

Hi All
I believe that Ikeda Sensei's explanations are quite straightforward and, in some way, simple. This is why he is such a great teacher and manages to stimulate big audiences in seminars all over the world.
That said, I am not stating here that I manage to do all he explains but again I think this is due to my lack of (daily) practice in these terms.
Sensei tells us a lot of times that the Dojo is like a laboratory, we should experiment. Well, most of the times in our Dojo we hardly have time to do that because most of times the focus is driven differently... and this is not Ikeda Sensei's fault.
I remember the first week long seminar with Ikeda Sensei teaching and thinking to myself (in frustration): "are we not going to do anything else other than katate dori...". After some years of practice I learned to appreciate more and more Sensei's teachings and this is mainly due to the fact that my teacher was in tune to this kind of practice.
Regards

Hi Manuel,

It was nice to meet you and practise with you in Coventry!

I agree that it is very hard to focus on working on what our teachers tell us when we have to teach a "normal" class. These things demand so much patience...

Have to say I felt a large range of people from all sorts of backgrounds and a lot of people were convinced this is what they do anyway... It's the same thing... ahhhh, we do this... I didn't get to feel so many people with a good, well connected body if I'm being honest (from an uke's point of view). Most people were moving from forearm and shoulder, I felt little coming from people's centers... But then, isn't that the point of all this? We can go back and try.

i believed i talked about this in one of the thread. when you have not the body that worked with this stuffs, you will be blind and deaf going in. you can feel your balance broke by Ikeda sensei, but you wouldn't be able feel what he did to you or be able to reverse engineering it. Ikeda sensei said, which i am paraphrased, "dan ranked no guaranteed you understand this!"

i believed i wrote a bunch of stuffs on translating what Ikeda sensei said somewhere.

i believed i talked about this in one of the thread. when you have not the body that worked with this stuffs, you will be blind and deaf going in. you can feel your balance broke by Ikeda sensei, but you wouldn't be able feel what he did to you or be able to reverse engineering it. Ikeda sensei said, which i am paraphrased, "dan ranked no guaranteed you understand this!"

i believed i wrote a bunch of stuffs on translating what Ikeda sensei said somewhere.

Yeah I remember reading it - not sure if it was on here or QiJin though. Either way, yes, it's not so easy to pick up unless you've been with him a long time and working on it with him or obviously if you've met up with Mike or some of the others who can explain a few things.

He also mentioned that grade doesn't matter and that sometimes it's worse with more experience because you have to learn a new method of moving.