Yeah, Judy's use of the word kill shows greater indication that she's from Stupidworld, not Charlie. This means that the most powerful city in the world was taken by a Stupidworlder, and that city was Charlie's. Now that Charlie has survived defeat by such an individual, and obviously regained quite a bit of power as Charlescomm, don't you think you'd be kind of desperate to take out a new person from Stupidworld?

What's perhaps even more interesting is the revelation that Charlie used to run a normal side.

And that it was "the most powerful side in the world" - and was conquered by Haffaton.

If Charlie ran a normal side, that would seem to suggest that he didn't think much differently from other Erfworlders before his defeat by Haffaton.

+1 for the "Judy's from Stupidworld" camp. If Haffaton's rise was another iteration of the Hippiemancer plot to end war and bring peace to Erf, would they have needed a Stupidworlder Overlord to accomplish some part of their plan? And who's to say a Stupidworlder can't die of old age in Erfworld? That's one complication an Erfworlder wouldn't have thought of, yet it could cripple or destroy a side dependent on a Stupidworlder.

Many questions...

_________________What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Judy/Dorothy is obviously from StupidWorld. If we follow the Wizard of Oz references, Dorothy was from "Earth" and so was the Wizard if I remember correctly. It's like 75% that Charlie is from StupidWorld.

Dorothy was from "Earth" and so was the Wizard if I remember correctly.

Indeed. He was a snake oil salesman in a traveling show, convincing simple minded people that he was capable of amazing feats. He accidentally got blown to Oz when he tried to fly in a balloon he didn't know how to operate.

He continued his scam in Oz, convincing the people of the Emerald City that he was a powerful wizard. But he was never anything more than a powerless old man.

Lots to chew on in this post... as several others have suggested, this is pretty good evidence for both Judy and Charlie having been from Stupidworld, Judy from the obvious "kill" and from the Dorothy character background, Charlie because the Wizard of Oz was originally from the same place as Dorothy (Judy, in this parallel, of course). Charlie being the wizard would also square with his not being royal... (Given her title, it seems almost certain that Judy is not royal either.)

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess here that Charlie did not, in fact, have the Arkendish while he was ruling the emerald city - that whatever power his side had came from conventional means and some stupidworld-ly thinking outside the box, and that he somehow came upon it while a barbarian - at which point, he began his ascent up the power curve. The loss of his former side (once very powerful, if Judy is to be believed) would also somewhat explain Charlie's current way of doing things - why he doesn't have multiple cities, etc. - since those conventional things didn't help him before.

Questions that need answers:

1. How has Olive gotten to her present state of basically running the side? Possibly a loyalty/duty conflict like we saw with Benjamin/Caesar and Don King? (Eg. She got to the point where she could rationalize it as best for her side/ruler to essentially sideline said ruler...) - but why doesn't Judy disband her? The flower dependency doesn't seem like enough - it's not like she couldn't hire another hippiemancer from the magic kingdom if she had to.2. What is the thing on Judy's ankle? Obviously it's a reference to real world electronic anklets that people on house arrest wear - but it doesn't really fit with the whole Oz theme.3. Who were the wicked witches? (The Witch of the East's broom Judy has apparently retained...)4. How did Olive get to be so frigging powerful/dangerous/cunning? Haffaton was already a juggernaut by the time they grabbed Wanda and added her uncroaked to their game plan. She seems to have done more to empower her side, without even possessing an arkentool, than anyone we've seen before or since.5. Is Janice alive at this point, and what does she think of Olive? The two seem to have radically different outlooks on their school of magic...6. Who are or were the tin man, lion, and scarecrow?

Bonus thought: Is it possible that Erfworld over time is playing out scenarios that are familiar to the people sucked into them from Stupidworld? The Wizard of Oz in Judy's case, the Gobwin Knob-ish game in Parson's case? If so, why does it do this? And if Charlie is from Stupidworld, what is HIS narrative, aside from being a supporting actor in Judy's story?

Last edited by Sharik on Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

“You are in what may be the worst, most Titans-forsaken place in all of Erfworld,” said Judy. “This is the Olive Garden.”

Also, the use of the word "kill" is quite interesting, but I think it's premature to say what it means for any individual characters, beyond the reasonable expectation that *someone* from Stupidworld came to Erfworld before Parson did. It could be Charlie, it could be Judy, or it could be someone else entirely who taught Judy the word.

Actually, now that I've taken another look at this update, I think it's safe to say that Judy is *not* from Stupidworld. Remember how Stupidworlders are much taller than Erfworlders? Judy is no taller than Jillian, according to the illustration.

Dorothy was from "Earth" and so was the Wizard if I remember correctly.

Indeed. He was a snake oil salesman in a traveling show, convincing simple minded people that he was capable of amazing feats. He accidentally got blown to Oz when he tried to fly in a balloon he didn't know how to operate.

He continued his scam in Oz, convincing the people of the Emerald City that he was a powerful wizard. But he was never anything more than a powerless old man.

Well, not exactly. At the very least the wizard had picked up some technomagic in his time in Oz. Depending on the source material the exact aspects of which bits of the city were illusions and which were real varied. In the books, the Emerald City wasn't emerald, vistiors were just given green glasses to 'protect against the green glare', but the wizard was able to have each of Dorothy's companions look at the same thing and see something radically different'. In the movie, having the technology chops to create a holographic projector in a kingdom on the tech level of thatched roofs and horse-drawn carriages doesn't suggest being powerless either.

edit: Just checked wiki, he came back in the sequels to study under Glinda and was explicitly capable of magic and technomagic. But those would have been after he abdicated, which doesn't quite fit the timeline.

Which seems to square with Charlie's noted dependency on the Arkendish and the literal magic of his Archons. In a world where most combat is decided by hack, slash, and stab, with casters being supporting units and numerous cities being advantageous, Charlie has turned things on their heads and built a powerful side using nothing BUT caster units and only a single city.

Lots to chew on in this post... as several others have suggested, this is pretty good evidence for both Judy and Charlie having been from Stupidworld, Judy from the obvious "kill" and from the Dorothy character background, Charlie because the Wizard of Oz was originally from the same place as Dorothy (Judy, in this parallel, of course). Charlie being the wizard would also square with his not being royal... (Given her title, it seems almost certain that Judy is not royal either.)

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess here that Charlie did not, in fact, have the Arkendish while he was ruling the emerald city - that whatever power his side had came from conventional means and some stupidworld-ly thinking outside the box, and that he somehow came upon it while a barbarian - at which point, he began his ascent up the power curve. The loss of his former side (once very powerful, if Judy is to be believed) would also somewhat explain Charlie's current way of doing things - why he doesn't have multiple cities, etc. - since those conventional things didn't help him before.

Questions that need answers:

1. How has Olive gotten to her present state of basically running the side? Possibly a loyalty/duty conflict like we saw with Benjamin/Caesar and Don King? (Eg. She got to the point where she could rationalize it as best for her side/ruler to essentially sideline said ruler...) - but why doesn't Judy disband her? The flower dependency doesn't seem like enough - it's not like she couldn't hire another hippiemancer from the magic kingdom if she had to.2. What is the thing on Judy's ankle? Obviously it's a reference to real world electronic anklets that people on house arrest wear - but it doesn't really fit with the whole Oz theme.3. Who were the wicked witches? (The Witch of the East's broom Judy has apparently retained...)4. How did Olive get to be so frigging powerful/dangerous/cunning? Haffaton was already a juggernaut by the time they grabbed Wanda and added her uncroaked to their game plan. She seems to have done more to empower her side, without even possessing an arkentool, than anyone we've seen before or since.5. Is Janice alive at this point, and what does she think of Olive? The two seem to have radically different outlooks on their school of magic...6. Who are or were the tin man, lion, and scarecrow?

Bonus thought: Is it possible that Erfworld over time is playing out scenarios that are familiar to the people sucked into them from Stupidworld? The Wizard of Oz in Judy's case, the Gobwin Knob-ish game in Parson's case? If so, why does it do this? And if Charlie is from Stupidworld, what is HIS narrative, aside from being a supporting actor in Judy's story?

Here's my take on these:1. Judy had the same relationship with Olive as Parson has with Wanda now. I'll explain why I think Judy was once the perfect warlord later. Once the ruler of the side was about to croak without heir, he or she looked where most of his sides' army were, said "Oh, they are with my Chief Warlord near the capital site. Making Chief Warlord my heir." and croaked. Judy got addicted to flowers much, much before that happened. (Can you blame her? She was just a regular girl ordering thousands to kill and die for her. Remember Wanda's comment that if she had a spell to stop headache that she would never stop casting it? What if Judy had the spell to stop heartache? Or a pink flower...)

2. They were taking sides left and right (as Gobwin Knob is doing now with their perfect warlord). It is possible that they took a few artifacts as well. This one looks like it is made from lookamancy/clothmancy link.

3. Original two Overlords/Queens who were fighting to standstill until one pulled the "Summon perfect warlord" spell? I don't know, really.

4. The same thing with Wanda. Wanda is the most powerful caster at the start of Book1 when Parson arrived. Olive was the most powerful caster in Haffaton when Judy arrived. Once Judy started conquering left and right, Olive levelled left and right.

5. Who knows?

6. Jack, Jillian's father and Marie the predictamancer? I have no clue.

Now, here's my theory what happened. Once upon a time, there was a mighty King Caesar, although you can call him any name you want. He had conquered and conquered, until everyone ganged up on him and he had fallen on hard times. As luck or fate would have it, he had a Thinkamancer, Findamancer and Lookamancer on his payroll. In a fit of inspiration or horrible need, he had ordered them to link and realized something: with this link, I can summon any unit in the world. He immediately ordered perfect warlord summoned and defeated his enemies, conquering even more. Or maybe Caesar was just a regular king with a hint of inspiration, that summoned a perfect warlord before he became conqueror, it works that way just as well.

One of the sides that ganged up on him somehow heard of the spell. Or maybe it was a side that he had almost spread to in his conquering. They have spent all their money for similar link up and got the perfect warlord of their own, or just someone better than what the opposite side had. Since turns had passed between the summonings, who is perfect or the best warlord for the situation changed in that time. Their perfect warlord allowed them to become the biggest side in the world. Then some of their enemies heard of the spell... And the whole cycle goes anew. After one of the iterations, it became a scroll instead of a trimancer link (maybe the spell consumed casters or something similar in the process?) and there's always a side in the world in need of perfect warlord, who has everything familiar to him so that he won't have to have things explained to him more than necessary.

Charlie is one of the perfect warlords. Judy the other, fated to replace him, but she had let him go instead and paid a heavy price for it. Parson is probably the last iteration of the plan, plan to conquer the world so there will be peace. And that plan is in turn making a world a much messier place to live in, because Charlie is actually the person most profiting of all the conflicts in the world and doesn't want them stopped. Maybe the spell has gone wrong or something changed his mind. His was the most powerful side in the world... then it got conquered by Haffaton.

Change of strategy, says Charlie, conquering the whole world didn't work. I'll concentrate all I have on a single murderous city and become a mercenary with very special units, that hardly anyone in the world can pop. No one wants to attack me, else those units stop coming. And with this Arkendish, I can provide telecommunication skills to anyone in the world, not just pop more archons than any side in existence. That's two reasons why nobody wants to touch me. And the third is, everybody can see I'm not into conquering, right? If they touch me, I might change my mind. Again.

_________________Don't click on this link, you might feel cheated if you do.Hint:

Bonus thought: Is it possible that Erfworld over time is playing out scenarios that are familiar to the people sucked into them from Stupidworld? The Wizard of Oz in Judy's case, the Gobwin Knob-ish game in Parson's case? If so, why does it do this? And if Charlie is from Stupidworld, what is HIS narrative, aside from being a supporting actor in Judy's story?

Or Erf wishes for Stupidworlders to fit its scenarios. Remember Wanda's words about who wisjed for what at the end of TBfGK.

Tathar wrote:

Actually, now that I've taken another look at this update, I think it's safe to say that Judy is *not* from Stupidworld. Remember how Stupidworlders are much taller than Erfworlders? Judy is no taller than Jillian, according to the illustration.

But if it is Judy Garland/Dorothy Gale that has blown over from Stupidworld then she can have Gale's age which is (checking wikipedia...) eleven. Would fit.

1. If Judy is from Stupidworld, she was not summoned by a perfect warlord spell. Because, to paraphrase Hamstard, if you think Judy Garland is the perfect warlord you have issues.

2. Judy may possibly still be a stupidworlder summoned by a spell - possibly even to defeat Charlie, like Parson. Her size isn't an issue. Dorothy was a child, summoned creatures are still subject to Erfworld rules so you'd expect signamancy decay rather than aging. And anyway, the spell could perfectly well have summoned Parson at a higher zoom level due to Stanley's "make him big" demand.

3. Charlie may or may not be a stupidworlder. The Wizard of Oz was, technically, but he had gone very native. Judy uses the word kill accidentally, but Charlie might have just picked it up from her as a kind of cool alien slang.

4. The warlord in the Green City was not necessarily Charlie, either. I think maybe we're taking that a bit too much for granted.

5. That Judy is being punished for failing to kill Charlie/The Wizard of Oz, I think isn't about fate. I think it's Olive who punishes her by keeping her a drugged prisoner. If it were fate, she would probably lose everything she loved and end up killing Charlie/Oz anyway. But this suggests she could have killed Charlie/Oz. Olive knows enough about predictamancy - as we saw with Goodminton - that she wouldn't have blamed Dorothy for doing something she was fated to. This suggests Dorothy is in fact free-willed. Which is supporting evidence that she's from stupidworld.

Actually we don't know that Judy/Dorothy was from Stupidworld/Earth. All we know is that she was from Kansas. We know that our world is 4.54 billion years old. However I met a man from Kansas who said that they had written records of Kansas only being thousands of years old. So perhaps Kansas got grafted onto our world via some sort of planar collision.

1. If Judy is from Stupidworld, she was not summoned by a perfect warlord spell. Because, to paraphrase Hamstard, if you think Judy Garland is the perfect warlord you have issues.

2. Judy may possibly still be a stupidworlder summoned by a spell - possibly even to defeat Charlie, like Parson. Her size isn't an issue. Dorothy was a child, summoned creatures are still subject to Erfworld rules so you'd expect signamancy decay rather than aging. And anyway, the spell could perfectly well have summoned Parson at a higher zoom level due to Stanley's "make him big" demand.

3. Charlie may or may not be a stupidworlder. The Wizard of Oz was, technically, but he had gone very native. Judy uses the word kill accidentally, but Charlie might have just picked it up from her as a kind of cool alien slang.

4. The warlord in the Green City was not necessarily Charlie, either. I think maybe we're taking that a bit too much for granted.

5. That Judy is being punished for failing to kill Charlie/The Wizard of Oz, I think isn't about fate. I think it's Olive who punishes her by keeping her a drugged prisoner. If it were fate, she would probably lose everything she loved and end up killing Charlie/Oz anyway. But this suggests she could have killed Charlie/Oz. Olive knows enough about predictamancy - as we saw with Goodminton - that she wouldn't have blamed Dorothy for doing something she was fated to. This suggests Dorothy is in fact free-willed. Which is supporting evidence that she's from stupidworld.

1.Or maybe Judy is a child chess player with a huge imagination from stupidworld. Or a kid from our time that grew up on pc games. Or a kid from 1970.-es that grew up on D&D and war games that were it's predecessors. We don't know until the next update. But we can speculate .2. I like zoom idea. I like it a lot.3. Could be. But, on the other hand, Charlie was talking and thinking differently than any other person we have seen in Erfworld so far.4. It is hinted, but we can't know for sure yet.

As for 5. Not necessarily. Olive can hold one heck of a grudge. I meant fate as predictamancy that didn't come true. Fate as "There's a prophecy about a saviour that will come and save us all. You came from trimancer spell as perfect warlord. You must be the saviour." Sort of like one of Neo's that chose to destroy and rebuild Zion before the Neo we all know and love (because we saw his life and his road to becoming the saviour) came to mess with the machines and chose love of his life instead of the human race; a savior but not the saviour!

_________________Don't click on this link, you might feel cheated if you do.Hint:

Hello to everybody, I follow Erfworld from the beginning but my bad english take me far from the forum for a long time... but now a want to share a thought, so i registered and... well, here I am

I don't think if Judy came from Stupidworld or, maybe, from the SAME Stupidworld of Parson.So, if she came from Stupidworld "Kansas" so the same will be probable for the Wizard, may be him Charlie or not.Think as Wizard, Judy and Parson are simply Outworlder, all came from different "THERE "... If Erfworld exist in some manner (may be a mental place, another dimension, a somewhere else on the space, whatever you think) and is related to Stupidworld Parson's "Earth" by magical means, so it's possible than it is also related to Stupidworld Judy "Kansas" where the term "kill" is corrently used.

If you follow this concept, so we can hypotize that the "courtain" between "Kansas" and Erfworld are not so strong compared to that with Stupidworld Earth, and so it needs a lower magic force to trigger and collect people from that world... so no need for multiple tri-mancers "perfect warlord" spell, and so it don't need to be a super warlord for Judy...

No. I’m afraid I never meant to do anything at all in my life. I’ve still done a great many things, though, all apparently by accident. It works that way. I’ve been a leaf on the wind,” said Judy. “At times, quite literally.”

"I have wanted a lot, I have started a lot, but the world winds of war swept away me and my work..." Drazen Mihajlovic, world war commander and traitor

_________________Don't click on this link, you might feel cheated if you do.Hint:

Who is online

You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum