I really empathize with you Illinoians. I don't know what it'll take for the citizens to finally see the light and to overthrow those tyrants in government. Obviously, it will have to be much worse than the NIU incident. And for that, I'm deeply sorry for the people that will be hurt.

Marlin 45 carbine

February 21, 2008, 09:39 PM

you going to obey the law?

2Ais4U

February 21, 2008, 09:41 PM

WOW! thats some commie crap right there.

steve4102

February 21, 2008, 09:45 PM

Time to stock up and learn to reload.

Reloading will be illegal and "stocking up" would be usless. You would be required to turn over all ammo to the State.

sm

February 21, 2008, 10:04 PM

Crafty indeed!

So I wonder if this affects ammunition for Police Depts?

Eternally responsible... - so who gets popped for ammo used later by a criminal with the serial number coming back to a Police Dept?

Reloading, as some Depts do reload I would hazard to guess and what about expended cases in training and quals?
Again, who gets popped if that brass is traced back to a Police Dept?

I can see where this might not get passed, at all, or severely rethought.
i.e. UK banned all knives and it dawned on folks, this meant knives for cooks and chefs to prep food.

It sure will cost money to implement, and enforce.
It will not look good the first time a crime is done with a firearm, already not legal in part of IL, and not be able to trace back where that ctg came from, to appease the voters and tax payers that had to pay for all this .

Then again, BP and homemade bullets are not a new thing, and single shot, and O/U, and SxS shotguns do not expend brass and really hard to serial number all them pellets.

Single shot .22 is another one , that does not leave brass...

Emotions for votes...I really see this biting some butts on both sides of the fence, and the antis getting bit the hardest.

Like NO ammo sales to IL, including Police Depts., so ammo mfg cannot get sued at all...
Oh it would hurt the law abiding a lot, not affect the thugs so much.

Police need ammo, they will run out, and will need reloading supplies...

Even gun grabbers might concede and do their side more harm advocating some ammo sales and reloading so Police can protect them.

Slippery slopes and tangled webs for sure.

If the ammo mfg are really Pro Gun, I'd stop all sales to Police Depts in a hearbeat.
Cut Police Depts off at the knees first and send a message before all this comes up.

Time to play hardball...
Ammo mfgs and Distributors quit selling to Police Depts.

38 Super Auto

February 21, 2008, 11:09 PM

you going to obey the law?

I would not if a similar law were passed here in IN.

I think if this law is seriously considered, the citizens need to get busy and
remind these Stalinist/Maoist lawmakers who the voters are and who the servants are...

joneb

February 21, 2008, 11:43 PM

When public officials are sworn in to uphold the "Constitution" what does that mean :confused:

GaryL

February 21, 2008, 11:44 PM

I'm sure Illinois has a decently large population of sportsman and hunters who never feel they are the target of the anti-gun zealots. It's time for them to wake up and smell the coffee. If they can't buy ammo that might help. It might even be better if people stop selling ammo to IL residents, so the sellors don't risk being tagged by the IL police for crimes they weren't a part of.

greenmtnguy

February 22, 2008, 12:20 AM

Wow, did someone move ********** over to the wrong side of the Rocky mountains... again ?!?!?

I hope that there are still a few sane people left there to defeat this BS before it gets out of committee..

Stinger

February 22, 2008, 12:22 AM

Come and take it.

ants

February 22, 2008, 12:47 AM

I just read the text of both proposed bills. I hate both bills, but both say this:

A manufacturer shall encode ammunition provided for
retail sale for regulated firearms in a manner that the
Director establishes.

And how long would it be until there were demands to close the "reloading loophole"? The whole strategy of the anti-gunners is to incrementally take away our rights.

jeepmor

February 22, 2008, 01:00 AM

Black market on reloading presses...saweeet.

Is this a preview of things to come.

You should see the optical character recognition technology in British Columbia.

Big Brother is here, and we are paying for it.

ArchAngelCD

February 22, 2008, 02:25 AM

You can thank the great state of California for starting all of this by passing a similar law. You would think the Congress should be doing more important things than harassing law abiding citizens. I guess the Constitution of The United States means nothing to these clowns! :rolleyes:

ra407

February 22, 2008, 03:12 AM

I will have to sell my reloader to a criminal, it won't stop them from reloading.

jhansman

February 22, 2008, 05:37 AM

I just read the text of both proposed bills.

Glad someone did. Kinda makes you wonder why that site didn't bother to post a link to the text of the legislation.

steve4102

February 22, 2008, 08:50 AM

Please go read the text of the bills

Could you post a link to both bills?

rdhood

February 22, 2008, 09:11 AM

6. You would have to surrender all unregistered ammunition you now own to the Illinois State Police.

How was California able to make citizens in the state turn over "assault weapons" without compensation? Just interested in how a state authority can just demand you turn over private property to the state without just compensation. That would seem to be a violation of the constitution.

moooose102

February 22, 2008, 09:57 AM

this sounds like a bunch of propaganda directed at and for the sole purpose of raising funds. there is no way any group of politicians would pass a law like this as it would be overturned in an appelet court before it ever took effect. i know that there are a lot of single individual politicians who would love to see all guns go bye bye, but, fortunatly for us, 1) the second amendment, 2) the appeals court system, 3) there are enough pro gun politicians to stop b.s. like this from ever getting through. i can believe that they are trying to get ammo serialized. it sucks, all that would do is raise the cost of already skyrocketing ammo prices. there would be no effect on criminal activity. if they serialize ammo, the crooks will just steal ammo like they do guns. it's a no brainer.

Bowfishrp

February 22, 2008, 10:39 AM

Does this mean all bullet and gun manufacturers will be moving to Texas?!?!?! I will invite them now before obamama wins and attempts to take everything we own.

I just can't believe that this would pass....even in liberal Illinois. The said part is that there are SO many wonderful Americans in IL and they wont be able to do a thing about it.

evan price

February 22, 2008, 10:56 AM

Indiana's bill died in comitte.

Arizona's bill specifically bans reloading.

This is currently in circulation in ELEVEN states and counting.

The company that makes the serialization equipment is the one pushing the legislation so they can sell machinery.

www.ammunitionaccountability.org I think is the URL to the source of all this crap.

sniper5

February 22, 2008, 10:58 AM

If this passes, in protest everyone should throw their illegal ammo in the garbage can. And not just you own. Drop a few rounds in dumpsters behind stores. Garbage cans at malls, stores, etc. Over time too, not just on one day.

Let it hit the landfills, or even better-THE INCINERATOR. Doesn't matter what it would do when that happens. Its what THEY think it will do.

Think about it for a minute. What are they going to do?

Arrest half the state, plugging up the court systems and prisons for years. The ammo is not traceable by their own admission.

Is the garbage company going to refuse to pick up the garbage? Hand inspect all garbage? Maybe the entire police department could be diverted to picking through all the garbage in the city? Stop filling landfills? Shut down the incinerators? For how long?

Guerilla warfare, anyone?

birdbustr

February 22, 2008, 11:20 AM

It looks like Illinois is another state I will never live in. California will probably be the next state to pick this up.

Doug b

February 22, 2008, 11:26 AM

Could someone please post a link to the proposed bills so us not so compu savvy handloaders could check this out.

Harley Quinn

February 22, 2008, 11:53 AM

Illinois has a real bad history for guns and gangsters, guess they are so tainted they still want to take it out on the decent citizens :what:

Seafarer12

February 22, 2008, 11:59 AM

No way to enforce it, it won't pass.

SSN Vet

February 22, 2008, 12:20 PM

maybe you Illinois will get lucky and an earth quake will drop Chicago into the bottom of Lake Mishigan....

If we're really lucky, San Fran and NYC would drop as well.

Can you imagine how much better off this country would be without these major urban centers!

dagger dog

February 22, 2008, 06:00 PM

does anyone remember the Gun Control Act of 1968 ? all the hooplah and fall out from the Kennedy assasination , you had to sign for .22 rimfire, and other ammo sans shotshells. it also stopped importation, of "saturday night specials"
(another worn out phrase of the anti's) like the Walther PPK, and a lot of damn nice firearms, for a while.

then comes the Brady B.S. (you know i would like to have the chance to look into the nightstands of half these people and see how many have a .38special laying in the top drawer). with the Brady B.S. the shooting sports were denied acess to what was rightfully extended to them by the constitution again: hi cap mags, among other things and the instant back round check one gun a month etc.

the thing is that they are going to keep chipping away ,they can't take it all at once or there would be anarchy, and the anarchist prime target is POLITICIANS! the anti's know and fear this . so they are going to continue until they get the results they want NO FIREARMS .

i remember a speach by Sir Winston Churchill talking to his people in London at the time of the Blitz 1941 1942. NEVER GIVE UP was his war cry

cpttango30

February 22, 2008, 06:31 PM

OK there are roughly 12,763,371 that 65% of the people own guns that is 8,296,191 now figure you are like me and have 5 boxes of 550 22lr ammo. aprox 500 rounds of pistol ammo 300 rounds of rifle ammo and 300 rounds of shotgun ammo. that is a total of that is 3850 rounds of ammo. Now take that and do the math. That is aprox 31,940,335,350 yes people that is 32 BILLION rounds of ammo. HUH what in the world are they going to do with that?

One box of 2 3/4" 12 ga shells is 4x4x2.5 Now just for shotgun shells that is 99,554,292 boxes of shells. Each box is 40ci that is 3,982,171,680 now convert ci to cf 2,304,498. You are going to need more than 3 million cubic feet to store just the shotgun shells these are all roughly estimated numbers.

rdhood

February 22, 2008, 07:04 PM

cpttango30,

That was kind of the point I was getting at. If a state had to PAY retail prices to citizens for ammo under a bill like this... they would think twice. We are talking 3 or 4 (or more ) BILLION dollars.

38 Super Auto

February 22, 2008, 08:10 PM

USA,
It sounds like you need a hobby? Have you ever considered the shooting sports?

No one can prove I reload, unless...the government moniters this website and sees my posts on this forum.:scrutiny: Crap, I'm screwed arent I??:uhoh:

rundm

February 23, 2008, 12:01 AM

just move to Texas, if we had nothing here but people who like the shooting sports, then people like obama or chelsea's mama would never come here and we would not have to worry about stupid laws and stuff that infringe on our rights.

Pat-inCO

February 23, 2008, 01:43 AM

Chicken Little still lives! (You remember, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!)

What a bunch of BS.

ArchAngelCD

February 23, 2008, 02:55 AM

How was California able to make citizens in the state turn over "assault weapons" without compensation? Just interested in how a state authority can just demand you turn over private property to the state without just compensation. That would seem to be a violation of the constitution.
Don't fool yourself, it can happen even here in the USA. It has already happened in Australia and England. Both governments passed laws prohibiting guns so law abiding citizens were required to turn in their guns which were DESTROYED! They were cut apart melted and all of this was done without compensation to the owner. I just read an article the Feb. 2008 issue of Rifleman about it. The gun writers from both countries told the Rifleman's writer it was all made possible because the government required Gun Registration. They knew where all the guns were so you couldn't hide.

It can happen anywhere my fellow shooters. That's why we must support organizations like the NRA who fight for our rights and watch the anti-gun folks for us. So, next time you get a email from the NRA asking you to write and call your Congressman and Senator about not voting for a Bill which will infringe upon our 2nd Amendment rights, DO IT!!!

BigBlock

February 23, 2008, 05:42 AM

Oh, yeah, that will work great to stop crime....every criminal buys their ammo retail and leaves the casings at the crime scene. :rolleyes:

With a few thousand cases, a bullet mold, and a wheelgun that can stand up to black powder, they can never take away your ammo.

Lon371

February 23, 2008, 08:58 AM

All I can say is I am glad I moved to the hills of southern Indiana.

Bowfishrp

February 23, 2008, 10:59 AM

Sorry but not going to give up my ammo....no going to register any of my guns....and WONT be giving them up....it will be red dawn time.

Marlin 45 carbine

February 23, 2008, 08:57 PM

I still say 'stamp the anti's'. save time and trouble.:D

SigLaw

February 24, 2008, 12:32 AM

In California you did not turn in your "assault" rifles. They had to be registered by a certain date and if not they became unregistered and, therefore, illegal. There was not a rounding up of weapons.

mscott

February 24, 2008, 07:49 AM

In California you did not turn in your "assault" rifles. They had to be registered by a certain date and if not they became unregistered and, therefore, illegal. There was not a rounding up of weapons.

.... NOT YET

kinser11

February 24, 2008, 11:21 AM

I scanned both HB4269 and HB4349 and I didn't see anything specifically stating that reloading would be illegal. Perhaps the bills are vaguely written as to provide such interpretations. One curious thing that both bills stated in the listing of weapons was the Colt series of AR's. They listed Colt AR-15's and all imitations with exception of the Colt AR-15 Sporter H-Bar. I don't know what they mean by this. As far as the serialization of bullet and casing there are some far reaching ramifications. One in particular would be the effect on indoor and outdoor shooting ranges both public and private. Anyone could pick up serialized brass and salt crime scenes. Only a bullet imprinted with numbers would be beneficial to solving a case. The serial numbers would also have to be on a nationwide database to provide any real benefit. Anyway, I see it as an indirect attempt to drive manufacturers out of business and, or make commercial ammunition and reloading cost prohibitive.

callgood

February 24, 2008, 04:15 PM

http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/Legisl2.jpg

These are the states where (to date) this legislation has been introduced. I had a polite exchange of ideas with one of the ammunitionaccountability people. She was either idealistically naive or deft at hiding their true agenda. They intend to microstamp the inside of each case and the base of each bullet with a unique number stored in a database identifying the purchaser. I pointed out, (and sent her the picture of an impact bullet puller and a rat tailed file) the ease with which said plan could be defeated. La la la la la, no impact.

XD-40 Shooter

February 24, 2008, 06:48 PM

I feel really sorry for you folks in the communist republic of Illinois. This is some really assanine legislation, a knee jerk reaction to mass public shootings that has zero impact on criminals. Do these idiots not realize that people can just go to Indiana and buy ammo, they would have no way of knowing. Also, are the criminals going to turn in their "unregistered ammo" as well?:rolleyes: If the communist's in Illinois want to try to confiscate ammo, how would they know what you have? Does Illinois keep ammo purchase records? Seems to me, they would need a warrant to enter your home and they would have NO probable cause to get a warrant. What a bunch of *****.:rolleyes:

Thank god I live in Colorado, a "free" state with a bigtime gun lobby.:D

These men had mental illnesses, and that fact was known by their communities, courts, and/or families. But no one got adequate help for them, or monitored to make sure they took their medication, or informed a responsible party when their conditions changed for the worse. Putting serial numbers on bullets will not get help for people who need it. Getting help for the mentally will will be the only way to stop large scale shootings in public places.

cpttango30

February 25, 2008, 04:05 PM

I emailed them and will provide my email and their response along with their break down of cost to us. I used 300 as a rough guess of an average. I believe that now the average is over 1000 rounds per house that ownes more than one firearm. I have replied back asking them to answer all the questions I posed? Notice that they shy away from answering questions about the legality of such laws.

Brett,

You’re right, the cost of ammunition would increase slightly, about .01 cents/round. See the attached document for details on how this would work. These seems like fairly small price, especially for such an important investigative lead.

In many states the ‘disposing’ provisions are being removed, and ammunition accountability supports that change. We feel that coded ammunition will be integrated slowly, much similar to how DNA databases were integrated.

So in California alone there is almost 33 million LEGAL firearms. This is not counting the millions of illegal firearms floating around San Diego, Los Angles, San Francisco, and many other cities in California. How are you going to take the ammunition away from the people for whom you know have firearms but they are not legal in any way shape or form? Are you going to go to all the street gangs and tell them to give it up or else?

Figure most people keep at least 300 rounds of ammunition on hand
That is 32811794.1*300= 9,843,538,230

Yes that is almost 10 BILLION rounds of ammunition.

How are you going to secure and transport 10 Billion rounds of ammunition? Who is paying the bill for this? Plus according to the US Constitution you cannot forcible remove my property from me without due compensation (Amendment IV). So now you have to pay me fair market value which you have just forced ammunition manufactures to raise the price of there for costing you even more money. Not only are you now in violation of Amendment II but you have also violated the following amendments. IV, V,VII.

How are you going to dispose of 10 billion rounds of ammunition that is just one state mind you? How are you going to secure this ammunition?

What if a person has no store bought ammunition? You do not know how much ammunition people have on have so there for you have no real idea how to deal with it.

ATAShooter

February 25, 2008, 04:36 PM

ANTS, ... don't forget Charlie Whitman, A marine who went haywire from a tumor in his brain and Sniped off The Tower at Texas University... This legislation is useless,...

What they need to put money into is finding out why they insist on taking others out with them. I don't mean to sound cold, but if you want to snuff yourself out cause you hate life, be my guest. But leave the others alone. This taking a bunch of others with you is what I don't get.

SamTuckerMTNMAN

February 25, 2008, 04:48 PM

Been having a fairly one way discussion with a fellow from one of the organizations. He hasnt offered any sense yet. I got an auto reply and then request for more personal info and that was it.

Pawns, useful pawns....they dont even realize we would fight for their freedom as well. Do they really trust all power to 'authorities'?
st

Dustinthewind

February 25, 2008, 07:11 PM

callgood,

Something interesting about your map and this legislation, it seems that most of those states go Democrat in the elections.

cpttango30

February 25, 2008, 10:16 PM

Ok my text is in blue Ammunition Accountability is in Red. These people make my brain hurt they are so stupid.

OK does Mexico have this requirement? No, the government cannot even find humans crossing the borders yet they are going to find ammunition? Where there is a will there is a way. What about port security? All sorts of items are smuggled into this country through our ports? What about all the people that hand load?

Last I checked, they must have reason to collect your DNA. Yes, and just recently a city in Florida was stopping people driving at a road block and forcing them to give DNA samples and submit to a search of their person and car because there was a killer on the loose. This was a blatant violation of civil rights and constitutional rights. How do I know that ever police officer that has access to that database will ONLY look up ammunition for criminals? How do I know that the police will not use this list to harass or violate my rights? What if a police officer’s has an altercations with my child and then my child get acquitted of the crime, now the police officer is mad so now he goes in and changes the numbers on my ammo so that they match a recent murder? What recourse do I have then?

Where in the constitution does it say that my property is the property of the government?

You fail to see my point in all this. You are wanting me to give up a freedom so you can feel safe, yet you are not any more safe after this than you were before this?

Do you not have to have a background check before buying a firearm? Yes, huh seems to me that criminals still get firearms without a federally mandated background check? Wow that really works no doesn’t it.

The code would be placed on the base of the bullet. The attached document outlines test done by the California Department of Justice that prove the code would still be readable after the bullet was fired.

The criminal would really have no choice but to buy coded ammunition if that’s all that was available. If they happened to steal the ammunition, you can report it stolen in the database, giving law enforcement a general location for the criminal. Also, I want to stress that the technology simply provides law enforcement with a lead – a coded bullet doesn’t meet the evidence threshold to lock someone away. So, if your ammunition is stolen and you don’t report it and it is used in a crime, the police would likely contact you but otherwise would leave you alone.

Constitutionally, you are still allowed to buy, own, carry, and shoot guns and ammunition as you do now under the legislation. And when I referenced DNA databases, I was referencing how it is targeted to criminals – those who are convicted or arrested (depending on the state). And how they were implemented at first on the state and local level and then slowly became and interoperable federal system. Last I checked, they must have reason to collect your DNA. Likewise, police would need a reason to look up your ammunition.

We have worked with multiple Attorney General’s Offices to ensure that this legislation is constitutional. A lawsuit would simply uphold their issued opinions.

Please let me know if there are any additional questions I can answer.

Where are you going to place this identification? If you place it on the ogive of the bullet it will be lost due to the bullet traveling down the barrel. If you place it on the base of the bullet the heat created by the burning powder coupled with the extreme pressure involved in firing a projectile will remove it.

Who is to say that a criminal will even follow this law? They do not adhere to the current gun control laws in place now? So why is adding more laws costing people billions of dollars going to fix anything? How about this why not get tougher on criminals? We spit drug dealers back out on the street like fries at a Burger King drive through window. We do the same with child molesters?

This makes about as much sense to me as banning children because there are child molesters out there!

So if a person breaks in to my home and steals ammunition I go to prison because of a crime I did not commit.

You did not answer the constitutional questions I asked either. How would you feel if some government thug came to your house and told you to hand over your TV because it gets channels the government does not think you need to have?

It s stuff like this that is destroying the United States of America. “We feel that coded ammunition will be integrated slowly, much similar to how DNA databases were integrated.” So you are ok with the police showing up on your door step and without a warrant or any probable cause forcing you to give your DNA so they can catalog it? Because I am not ok with that. We are a country “Founded by the people for the people”. We are a country of Free citizens not a country of servants. The government is here to serve the people NOT the other way around.

I will ask you to answer the questions about how you are going to do this without violating any of my constitutional rights?

emb

February 25, 2008, 11:04 PM

By the way and just some thoughts:

1. How many gun crimes are committed where no shots are fired.

2. How many gun crimes are committed where if shots are fired, the gun was a revolver.

3. How many gun related crimes have been committed where empty brass is found.

4. How many gun crimes have been committed where an empty case would have provided an important "investigative lead". Why would I use ammo registered to me. If I do, the cops already know with or without the case.

5. How many homicides and violent crimes are committed with a gun verus some other means.

6. How many homicides that are committed with a gun remain unsolved.

7. How exactly would an empty case provide an important "investigative lead". It's only circumstancial evidence anyway that by itself means nothing. Criminals will either steal ammo or buy it out of state. Cabelas, Midway, whoever.

Exactly how is this trash going to help. People in those 11 states need to get involved to stop this stuff. Stupid legislation passes all the time. They simply refuse to allow facts and reality to get in the way of a good argument.

steve4102

February 27, 2008, 08:16 AM

http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/c..._493418_1.html
excerpt
The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms today is calling on lawmakers in the states of Washington, Arizona, New York, Illinois, Hawaii and several other states to scrutinize legislation that would require ammunition coding, because it mandates a soul source monopoly for a Seattle-based company that owns the technology.Based on a story in the new edition of Gun Week, and a look at virtually identical legislation that has been introduced in several states, CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb said there are serious questions that need to be addressed about these measures, and the effort to pass them into law.

"Sponsors of bills that would require coding of cartridge casings and bullets in their respective states have neglected to mention that there is only one company in the country with the technology, and that company has been working with a 'hired-gun' consulting firm that offers its help to lawmakers drafting the legislation," Gottlieb said. "Essentially, you have state legislators working as promoters for a company called Ammunition Coding System, pushing measures in at least ten states that would mandate the use of this proprietary technology at the expense of gun owners.

"Even if the technology were licensed to various ammunition manufacturers," he continued, "it still puts one company in a monopoly position. On its own website, the company even acknowledges that legislation would be required to implement what many gun owners believe is a back-door gun registry, by forcing dealers to keep records on who purchases ammunition.

"Creating a technology, and applying for a patent while hiring a consulting firm to push legislation that requires this technology is horribly self-serving," Gottlieb added. "The fact that in every state these measures are being pushed, the sponsors are anti-gun lawmakers, simply adds to the suspicion.

"Giving one company a legislated monopoly in any other area would bring down a media firestorm," Gottlieb stated. "The government would never allow it. State senators, representatives or assemblymen who get involved with this effort should ask themselves just what it's worth to essentially be lobbyists for a monopoly."

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