EU Referendum: Why I Want OUT!

As the title suggests, I am voting for the UK, but more especially for Wales, to leave the European Union. There are many reasons for this decision, some of which are set out below. And while my primary interest is Wales my concerns over the EU encompass wider, even global, issues.

THE BIG PICTURE

There have always been dreamers or idealists who’ve believed that the human race would be far happier if we had one, world government, and that wars could be avoided if we all spoke the same language. Nowhere has this belief been more explicitly stated than in those movies that see Earth threatened with alien invasion / destruction making us all pull together to defeat a common enemy. Heart-warming stuff that makes us proud to be Earthlings.

Away from the idealism I believe there really are powerful and influential people working towards a similar kind of global unity. Let me allay your fears for my sanity by making it clear that I am not talking now about anything as exotic as Illuminati or Knights Templar, Zionists or Nazis, let alone aliens or disguised reptilians moving among us. These are human beings not a lot different to you and me, just more ruthless, and greedy.

Among the more irritating ‘barriers’ to this one-world objective are nation-states, national identities, local governments, languages other than English, regional tastes and peculiarities. In fact, many of the things you and I cherish. So another objective for our Elite is to break down these ‘barriers’, and this is done by promoting the growth of supra-national bodies and encouraging the ‘homogenisation’ of the human race.

Perhaps it’s the absence of reptilian characteristics, but those I’m referring to are not easily identifiable, though many of them will be found at the regular meetings of the Bilderberg Group. (That said, the Bilderberg Group may itself be little more than a useful distraction for conspiracy theorists.)

Those I’m discussing are an ever-changing but self-perpetuating Elite that operates in the way secretive or semi-secretive groups have operated throughout history; that is, by infiltrating other organisations and also – more importantly – by recruiting those they see rising within the corporate world, the media, politics, the military and other fields. You cannot apply to join.

THE POLITICAL ROUTE

The best way to progress their strategy is by covering both bases in democracies where we find two major parties split along vaguely Left / Right lines, and then work through both of them. Achieved by largely removing ideology from politics and reducing political ‘debate’ to sound bites, photo opportunities, and taking up ‘positions’ that mean absolutely nothing.

In recent decades this blurring has been achieved in the USA, the UK, and other Western countries sharing such a political system. And yet, the rise of Trump, the support for Sanders, the election of Corbyn (even if it was achieved by the hard Left), and increasing support for populists and nationalist parties on the European mainland, presents our putative world leaders with the biggest threat their plans have yet faced. That’s because these hiccups warn them that across the Western world an increasing number of people believe they are ruled by elites out of touch with their concerns. And they’re right.

The Washington Post and the New York Times rail against Trump, ridicule his supporters, but those putting their faith in the Republican presidential candidate are not all gun-toting rednecks; they are people who have seen their jobs exported to low wage countries and their living standards fall, who have seen their patriotism exploited by one pointless and expensive war after another, who have lived through a recession caused by the reckless and criminal behaviour of people who all escaped punishment, who have seen the America they grew up in change around them.

To summarise: the aspiring world Elite has been clever in taking over the political centre ground and using that control to cast the cloak of moderation over its own ambitions. To the extent that anyone outside of the imposed boundaries of ‘responsible’ debate automatically becomes ‘dangerous’, or an ‘extremist’.

You know how clever this Elite has been when you hear socialists defend the EU for what it’s done for workers rights, and women’s rights, and God knows what other acts the bruvvers hold to be virtuous. I say that because the EU is merely a halfway house to the world our Elite craves.

The EU serves to lull us into a resigned acceptance of vague and distant government over which we have no control, but disguises its intentions by doling out goodies to appease the gullible. The question I would ask those currently defending the EU is this, if the Elite I’m describing achieves its objective of an unelected global government that cannot be removed, do you really think they’ll still be handing out goodies?

THE WORLD OF HARRY LIME

If we would seek a birthplace for this Elite, then it has to be the USA. There’s a temptation to assume that it grew out of that bogeyman of ’60s activists and folk singers, the military-industrial complex, but I believe we need to go back further.

In the first decade or so following the end of World War Two Europe was a very uncertain place. Not only were the Soviets camped in the east but in the west communist parties almost came to power through the ballot box in Italy and France. This frightened both the USA and the European elites trying to re-establish themselves after the disruption of World War Two.

There were a number of initiatives used to counter the communist threat to western Europe. First there was NATO, with the Treaty signed on April 4th 1949. Next came the forerunner to the Common Market and the EU, the European Steel and Coal Community, announced by Robert Schuman in May 1950.

Taking the fight to the communists was Gladio. Formed as a ‘stay behind’ force in the event of a Soviet invasion Gladio developed into a terrorist organisation, using false flag attacks – as part of the Strategy of Tension – to lose the Left political support and justify repressive legislation. This culminated in the 1980 Bologna train station massacre, which was initially blamed on Left-wing terrorists but was actually carried out by fascists directed by the Italian secret service.

Operation Gladio can be traced through NATO back to the Pentagon and the CIA. Unsurprisingly, no one likes to talk about Gladio nowadays.

Finally, we had the first meeting of the Bilderberg Group at Oosterbeek in the Netherlands in May 1954.

I don’t want to dwell too much on this aspect of recent European history partly because it’s all rather distasteful, but without appreciating what was happening in the decades following WWII, it’s not easy to understand where we are today. The Strategy of Tension that invents enemies or exaggerates threats in order to justify repression is something that all governments employ to some extent. How far they’re prepared to go along this road depends on how serious they regard the challenges facing them. Though when the strategy is externally controlled then national governments may not even be consulted.

By the late 1980s we were into the brief era of Glasnost and Perestroika. There were many now in the USA who believed that their country had rescued Europe from the Nazis, had then pumped in huge amounts of cash to re-build Europe, before saving us from the Communists, and that all this entitled the USA to some control over Europe. And some tangible benefits from that control.

NATO, RUSSIA AND TURKEY

The Soviet Union and its former Warsaw Pact allies falling apart after 1990 should have meant the end of NATO, a military alliance set up to counter the spread of Soviet communism. But no, NATO has continued to grow, and all in one direction – eastward, seeking to encircle Russia.

NATO and the EU work hand in hand. It begins by, typically, exaggerating the threat of Russian aggression to frighten eastern European states into joining NATO, with membership of the EU offered as a sweetener. For a post I wrote in February I drew up a little table showing how joining NATO is invariably rewarded with EU membership. I reproduce a slightly amended version here.

Turkey is the obvious anomaly, but rest assured, the Turks have been promised EU membership . . . by the USA. Though it’s proving to be a hard sell. For a clear majority of the EU’s people do not want Turkey as a member, but the promise has been made and now a way must be found to give Turkey EU membership, or, at least, the benefits of EU membership, and this can only be done by denying the people of Europe a say in the matter.

Turkey, that refuses to acknowledge its genocide against the Armenians. Turkey, a country waging constant war against its Kurdish minority. Turkey, friend of ISIS. Turkey, the Islamist dictatorship on the borders of Europe. We are supposed to welcome this country into the EU simply because it’s a loyal ally of the USA in its power struggle with Russia! I’d rather have Russia in the EU.

THE CAMPAIGN

What I’ve written should explain why President Barack Obama has made a number of interventions in support of the UK staying in the EU. In one speech he went as far as saying that we would be punished if we left the EU. (The BBC report I’ve linked to suggests that Obama was ‘doing Downing Street’s bidding’. Do these people understand nothing!)

The USA wants the UK to remain in the EU for the very reasons President de Gaulle wanted to keep the UK out – because the UK (more especially, England) will always act as Uncle Sam’s Trojan Horse. The UK in the EU will make life easier for major US corporations, and continue to isolate and taunt Russia. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership should be a warning to everybody.

The campaign itself has been distinguished by its lack of honesty, the absence of rational let alone intellectual discourse, and now, as I write this, by the hysteria surrounding the murder of MP Jo Cox.

Apparently her killer, rather than being an unhinged saddo, living alone and friendless since his granny died, is a ruthless assassin with links to US white supremacists, the apartheid regime in South Africa (toppled 22 years ago!), and motivated by his hatred for the EU. To believe much of what I’ve heard and read in the past 72 hours, the murder might as well have been committed by Farage, Gove and Johnson.

Something else worth mentioning about this killing is that once again we see the Elite and the Left in harmony. In times past of course, in the good old Gladio days, the Elite would have been targeting the Left, but currently the threat to the Elite’s agenda comes from the Right, both in the USA and in Europe, and so public opinion must be mobilised against that threat.

The ‘National Newspaper of Wales’ on Saturday told us, ‘Wales united in grief’ – for a woman we’d never heard of until she was murdered! ‘National grief’, if such a thing exists, is surely reserved for tragedies like Aberfan or, if we are dealing with individuals, then someone the nation knows and loves.

Also on the front page the Mule told us that the “Nation stands together to remember MP Jo Cox”. No, not really; it was just a few politicians campaigning. This killing was a truly horrible deed, but God Almighty! it has been shamelessly and distastefully milked by the Remain camp.

Elsewhere we have had various groups coming out in support of remaining in the EU, including of course (drum roll) ‘The World of Showbiz’. But what sort of moron is influenced in making a very important choice by a soap opera ‘star’? Come to that, why do luvvies believe that anyone with an ounce of sense gives a toss about their opinions? Is life for them one big Graham Norton Show?

The BBC and the rest have played ball to the extent that just about anyone arguing against EU membership belongs to the ‘Right Wing’ or the ‘Extreme Right’; and is ipso facto a ‘racist’ or a ‘fascist’. It seems that in the modern political spectrum there is naught but a wasteland between the advance guard of the Fourth Reich and the cuddly and ‘responsible’ Centre-Right represented by Cameron, that merges seamlessly into the Centre-Left.

Which is strange, really, because somewhere in this ‘wasteland’ is where I locate myself, and I know that the neighbourhood is becoming daily more popular.

And yet, the irony, not lost on anyone who follows and analyses what goes on in the world, is that the Elite-NATO nexus has not hesitated to fund and to arm overtly fascist groups in Croatia, Ukraine and elsewhere. So the message is clear – there’s nothing wrong with fascism per se but the jackbooted ones must be on the ‘right’ side.

Of course, there’s no escaping the fact that this debate is essentially a Left / Right split. Perhaps this was inevitable, and I have no problem with it. What I do take issue with – and not just in this referendum campaign – is that many on the Left seem to believe they are both intellectually and morally superior to their opponents. In their eyes I am both stupid and evil for writing this.

THE EU

There’s no avoiding it, I suppose; we must discuss the beast itself. Though I don’t really want to spend too much time on it. Let’s start by going back in time a bit.

Given my admiration for General de Gaulle, his l’Europe des patries held some attraction. Then there was the alternative of a fully federalist model that promised to do away with the existing nation-state and perhaps revive Europe’s ancient regions and submerged nations.

But whichever model was chosen I believed – influenced by books such as The American Challenge – that the ambition should be a continent standing up to both the USA and the Soviet Union. A beacon to the rest of the world, offering a real alternative that balanced individual freedoms with collective responsibility for the less fortunate.

The bureaucratic aberration we see today results from neither of those options I considered all those years ago. The EU today is little more than the political wing of NATO. The EU was long ago adopted by the Elite as a vehicle to carry forward its agenda. The EU today, given these links, and how NATO and the Elite provoke Russia, may even be a threat to peace.

From The Telegraph online, article by Laura Hughes

I suppose I also have to address immigration seeing as this is said to be the most important single reason for people in the UK wanting to leave the EU. My position is quite simple; genuine refugees should be taken in, but economic migrants should not be allowed to enter the EU unless needed. As for migration within the EU of EU citizens, well, that’s part of the package, the only way to stop it is to leave.

The reason the issue is so fraught, and divisive, is that with immigration we once again see the unholy alliance between the Elite and the Left. The latter seems to believe that Europe should take in just about anybody, with few if any checks. (The attitude that led to the wake-up call of New Year’s Eve in Cologne, where the attackers were not refugees from Syria or Iraq but young, and mainly illegal, male migrants from North Africa.)

The Hard Left cries crocodile tears over refugees but in reality it views immigration as just another weapon in its ongoing war against the corrupt and capitalist West. (Yawn.)

The Elite of course supports uncontrolled immigration because this is a force for homogenisation, and also because it drives down wages. But using the mainstream media to vilify as ‘racists’ all those who have reservations about immigration is insulting to tens of millions of decent people across Europe, and it will backfire.

It is already backfiring, on both sides of the Atlantic. The Austrian establishment suffered a bit of a shock recently when Austrians nearly voted in a Freedom Party president. (Note that for the Grauniad the FPÖ is a “far-right party”.) Now new President Christian Kern is considering introducing legislation to ban the peaceful – but embarrassing – protesters of the Identitarian movement. “We have to think about whether we are too tolerant”, says Kern. Chilling words.

The conundrum for the Elite, and indeed for those who like to project themselves as ‘moderate’ and mainstream politicians, can be spelt out thus: For reasons commendable or not you want immigration, but you don’t want the political drift to the Right that challenges your authority and your plans. Yet uncontrolled immigration – even the perception of uncontrolled immigration – will always drive many voters to the Right.

I shall end with one final example of how out of touch those running this circus are with the ordinary people of Europe. One issue that I guarantee unites people across Europe is their contempt for tax havens, so beloved of the Elite. Yet Europe has a tax haven at its very core, it’s called Luxembourg.

WEXIT

When I joined Plaid Cymru back in the mid-’60s there was no question that the party believed in independence. There was no debate over the issue; it was independence, a seat at the United Nations and all the other trappings of statehood. The problem was that this inevitably raised the response that accused us of wanting to ‘cut Wales off’. (‘Cut’ being an emotive and loaded word in almost any context.)

Then along came the Common Market, and Plaid Cymru seized the opportunity to promote ‘Independence within Europe’ which, it was hoped, would avoid the damaging ‘cut’ riposte. It hasn’t really worked. In fact, UK membership of the EU has not made Plaid Cymru any more popular; it has simply allowed the party to pretend that Wales somehow has a real presence in Europe, while simultaneously arguing that independence is soooo twentieth century.

But the argument being pushed more than any other, by Plaid Cymru and the other parties, is that Wales ‘does well’ out of the EU. What this really means is that because Wales is relatively poor we get lots of hand-outs. It’s quite incredible to hear ‘Welsh’ Labour, largely responsible for Wales’ poverty, extol the benefits of EU membership for this reason.

There’s no doubting that Wales has received billions in EU hand-outs – but look around you, where are the benefits? The truth is, as I keep saying, far too much of this funding has been wasted building up a whole stratum of Welsh life beholden to the statist ‘Welsh’ Labour Party. It’s almost as if our politicians are afraid to do what’s best for Wales in case it gives us ideas.

Wales today is asleep, lulled into accepting a steady, subsidised decline. We are told by all political parties that we must be grateful for these dollops of cash because we can’t do anything for ourselves. Therefore we must stay in the EU to ensure the cash keeps coming. There needs to be a better reason than that.

Finally, I ask you to consider the reasons given, by different voices, for Wales to vote Remain, and then decide whether – like me – you don’t in fact view these as the ‘cold shower’ Wales needs to finally wake us up and get us moving in the right direction:

We shall lose the EU hand-outs and these will not be replaced by Westminster.

Leaving the EU will result in economic meltdown.

The City of London will be replaced as Europe’s No 1 financial centre.

Brexit is fundamentally English nationalism.

Post Brexit the UK will experience the most repressive and anglocentric government ever known.

Scotland will probably become independent.

I know I’m lining up with some unpleasant people (I see through them better than most), but the issue is too big to let personalities intrude. The European Union is a bureaucratic nightmare run by weaklings and a failure on every level. Worse, it no longer serves the interests of Europe’s peoples but those of a shadowy Elite that regards all nationalities, and all languages other than English, as obstacles to a world unified without the knowledge or consent of its peoples.

On Thursday you won’t just be voting on the European Union; a Remain vote will also be an endorsement of NATO’s dangerous Bear-baiting; of the Elite’s global control programme, and, possibly – more likely if democracy threatens to break out – a return to Operation Gladio.

You don’t want to live in this dystopian future, few do, but the wheels are already in motion. If you care about Wales, and if you want to see Wales survive and prosper as a nation in her own right, then you must vote to leave the European Union as the precondition for leaving the United Kingdom.

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133 thoughts on “EU Referendum: Why I Want OUT!”

Dennis Morris

I share your thoughts on the EU referendum debate Jac. For me it’s simple, opt out of Brussels rule and await the oppression of English oops London rule. The domination of London rule will inevitably trigger another push towards Scottish independence thus spurring, hopefully, the sleepy population of Cymru into seeking its own quest for independence.

This referendum will be a real kick in the nuts for Labour and Plaid Cymru, both of whom have been shocked by the levels of support for Brexit they’ve encountered – from those who should have been so grateful for all the hand-outs.

Scotland isn’t ‘going’ anywhere. That’s the scaremongering illusion that’s been conjured up by Unionists (break-up of the UK ‘family’ and all that crap we heard during the Scottish independence referendum). All it would mean is that they have the freedom to rule themselves. It’s not as if someone will have a big chainsaw to cut them off from the mainland, put a big barbed wire fence around them and then tow them out to the middle of the North Sea! And no, you won’t need a visa to go and stay with your auntie in Aberdeen.

Do you think that England is currently holding back from riding rough shod over our country, because we have Scotland as a minder?

I would think that it’s more likely that the argument for us to do the same would be strengthened, and a precedence set. Viewing Scotland flourish as a free nation should spur us on, proving to us that it is possible – despite the black propaganda.

The more independent, self governing countries that there are around, makes the world a safer place. It’s also the opposite to what the dark suits in the shadows want. They want a world where there are no countries, borders or cultures – just a single world government, run by the the elite who currently own 99% of the world’s wealth, which is in the hands of the 1%. That’s the vision of the “New World Order”. “Ordo ab Chao” order out of [manufactured] chaos is their slogan; coincidentally it is also the slogan of the 33rd degree of Freemasonry. Now you’re back in the domain of the “Secret Societies”.

The concept of conspiracy frightens some people, so much so that they are willing to overlook any and all evidence that world events are for the most part directed, rather than chaotic and coincidental. For those who are uneducated and unaware, explanations for the terrible tides of politics and war generally revolve around a false understanding of Occam’s razor. They argue that the theory states that the “simplest explanation” is usually the correct one for any particular problem or crisis. But Occam’s razor actually states that the simplest explanation according to the evidence at hand is usually the correct answer for any given problem. That is to say, the simplest explanation must conform to the evidence, or it is likely not correct.

The EU is a stepping stone to the goal of a world order. “Come out of her, my people, … The wickedness of this Babylon was very great; . . . .! ” (Revelation 18:4)

Very interesting. I had a brief exchange of posts with Gwilym about this a few months ago and since then I have seen much evidence of this that had never been apparent before. I think I was very sceptical at first but now with the benefit of a little awareness can see what I couldn’t before. The whole subject is rather alarming to say the least, a “new world order” would be like something out of a 70s post apocalyptic science fiction film, a future that should be resisted at all costs.

Very interesting angle on the reasons for OUT, Jac. I’m voting Out too, for many reasons. I’m encouraged to read YBarddCwsc’s words about corruption etc – he/she has first hand knowledge – that’s the best kind of evidence.

I take the view that if the EU has been so damned good for us over all these years, why is Wales so piss poor? Answer – partly because we have a piss poor “government” (Westminster and Cardiff Bay) who have used anything we’ve had back for pet projects that have done little to improve the economic well being of the common herd. Consultants and Cardiff itself have done very well, thank you very much, but if you live in the valleys, Mid or North Wales, you get a different picture – something you have covered at length in your many posts over the years.

Moving on, I am glad you’ve referred to the tragic and brutal killing of Jo Cox. As someone supporting Leave I have been disgusted to find myself found guilty of her killing too, by the law of Joint Enterprise. The inference is clear – Jo Cox assassinated by a racist – all racists vote for Brexit – maybe not all Brexit voters are racists – but birds of a feather flock together – therefore we are vicariously culpable for her death.

Finally, another reason I’m OUT is that I believe the further away from us the decisions are made the more difficult it is to monitor the corruption, nepotism, cronyism etc. that is so rife. Doing a bit of digging this wet afternoon I find Brendan Cox, husband of Jo, was a senior executive with Save the Children until resigning in dubious circumstances last year (Google it). But you won’t read that right now – it won’t surface until after the Thursday vote. Before that he was a SPaD for Gordon Brown in No 10. In No 10 at the time worked Rachel Kinnock, daughter of Windbag. She then went to work for Ed Miliband when Brown got kicked out. Jo Cox worked for Sarah Brown and Glenys Kinnock in the past and was referred to by Neil a day or two ago as “like a niece”. (Nepotism comes from the word nephew, as you know). The constituency Jo won was done so, rather unexpectedly, on an all women shortlist – she was born and raised in the area, and although living in London at the time, her hat was first into the ring. Probably assisted by Sarah and Glenys and Gordon and Neil. Neil’s boy was parachuted into Aberavon at the same time – and shared a Westminster office with Jo. It’s so bloody crooked and incestuous I feel like a good scrub now I’ve written it. Oh, I forgot. The current CEO of Save the Children is Helle Thorning-Schmidt. She earns $344,887 USD annually. She was a former MEP, like Glenys Kinnock, and former Prime Minister of Denmark. Also known as Mrs Stephen Kinnock of course, and Glenys and Neil’s daughter-in-law. This gold digging “Labour” family and its extensions reach everywhere.

Sorry if I digressed but if the Kinnocks love the EU – then that’s another reason I’m Out.

I have read somewhere that Mr Cox was on £106K a year in Save the Children so I doubt an MP’s humble stipend would appeal, though I have no idea how lucrative is his current job of “development consultant” where he appears to be self employed. Looking at his past history this is likely to be quite a culture shock but I am sure his future will be in good hands following the terrible events of last week. But what put me on to this whole business was how the hell can a new MP afford a Thames houseboat plus apparently a pad in their constituency where they entertained the Labour crachach as well?

I had an awful dream last night that the Labour candidate for Batley and Spen would be Rachel Kinnock but her future is now well secured. When Ed Miliband’s political aspirations went tits up in May 2015, Rachel appeared to take a bit of a break before landing a job as a producer on ITV News early in 2016. Allegra Stratton was writing this week about social evenings with the Coxes on their boat. Allegra now works for ITV News too. And used to date Ed Miliband.

There’s another character in this rather odd tale that we should look at. Name of Justin Forsyth. Used to work for Tony Blair and I think for Mr Brown. Was very close friend of the Coxes – and surprise, surprise was Chief Executive of Save the Children UK but left, apparently for different reasons to Mr Brendan Cox, just a few months after Cox went. Would you just give up a nice cushy job paying a six figure salary? But there’s a story about StC giving Blair some humanitarian award – well just fancy that. No connection with Forsyth and Blair sharing a cuppa in No 10, I suppose?

Jac- I really hope you take a closer look at this bunch. It takes in the unholy alliance of the Third Sector and politicians, something very close to your heart.

I am a member of Plaid Cymru and I shall be voting Leave (funnily enough as are nearly all the Plaid voters and most of the members that I know).

I went canvasing quite a lot in the run-up to the Assembly elections and it was obvious that what you would call the traditional working class were overwhelmingly for Leave.

I think Labour are going to be in for a very big shock in their heartlands in the valleys and I firmly believe Plaid have massively shot themselves in the foot by taking sides. The only route to power in Wales is via the industrial and post industrial working (or non working as the case may be) class, not the professional/middle class – they simply do not have the mass. And the only route to independence for Wales is with the UK outside the EU.

I’m so pleased at the result of your research and the contents of your latest post Jac – well done! Thank goodness you’ve incorporated the ‘big picture’ and have not been staring at a corner of the canvas as the less enlightened amongst the public, who are campaigning in this referendum, are doing.

I’m also so please that others on here have had a deeper think about things from a far wider angle than pondering over misleading tit bits that are being hand fed out to the public via the media, which are then picked up on and debated over, day after day – the inconsequential and mundane things, the scare stories – THE RED HERRINGS. What is at the core of this whole business is far greater and certainly far more sinister than many can even imagine. What the cynics are doing is looking at the room through a keyhole. We are seeing the gradual procession towards a world government, world army, world police, quite simply a police state, totalitarian dictatorship and enslavement (both physically and psychologically) of the ordinary people. An Orwellian prophesy that’s coming true. The European Union is a major piece in the jigsaw puzzle picture that is emerging.

My greatest joy is to see that Colin, who, as he rightly says, had a few exchanges with me on this subject lately, has evidently got up and looked more closely at things from a wider angle – that’s the sign of an intelligent person who does not just take other people’s word for it, but puts the effort into the research for himself.

Finally it may raise a few eyebrows when I mention his name (because of all the vilification and purposely generated humiliation through ridicule that he has suffered at the hands of the media for a quarter of a century – at one time the very mention of his name would make people laugh and point to their temple with their index finger). I’ve been studying what this guy has researched and written over the last twenty six years, and in my opinion he’s spot-on. Little wonder he’s currently engaged in a sell-out world tour – thankfully the masses are waking up. Not only has what he was originally laughed at for saying – at the beginning in the 90s, virtually all come true, people are now seeing the outworking of what he was warning people about way back. The ridicule has died away, only to be kept going by the most blind, biased or ignoran/stupid these days. Anyone with half a neuron, who study the evidence that he has uncovered are suddenly listening and frowning with anxiety. I’m talking about David Icke – there’s a lot more to this guy than people realise.

View this video (a trailer for his weekly pod-cast that he delivered last week). Stick with it to the end, then try telling me if there is anything wrong with what he says. In fact he echoes the very things that I have been bleating on about, and Jac has so perfectly articulated in his last post.

Here’s the link:

If you want a more ‘filled out’ view of what it’s about, click on this link:

If you want to hear more just type in ‘David Icke Europe’ into the You Tube’s search engine. ENJOY! More importantly vote OUT – not for the UK but for Cymru, because you can kiss goodbye to any hopes of independence or even any identity if we stay within that evil set-up called the EU.

Looking at twitter I’m surprised that the Remain wing of Plaid don’t seem to be very active, their little middle-class hearts don’t seem to be in it somehow. Just a bit of the usual snobbery – you know how only stupid, uneducated types could possibly want to miss out on all that euro lovery.

Poor old Syd Morgan seems to be getting a bit anxious about it all though, I wonder why?

That stuff about the Kinnocks in the comments was fascinating, a bit hard to argue against the hagiography at the moment of course.

With the current disgust for the elite manifested throughout the Western world you have to wonder how strong the Welsh independence movement might have been if it had been led by a party that connected with the demos rather than one that wanted to be loved by the metrosexuals. Oh well.

“With the current disgust for the elite manifested throughout the Western world you have to wonder how strong the Welsh independence movement might have been if it had been led by a party that connected with the demos rather than one that wanted to be loved by the metrosexuals. Oh well.” Brilliant!

Plaid, once again, has been more concerned with the Guardian vote than with the Gilfach vote.

That stuff on the Kinnocks will be used. It’s too good to ignore. But as you say, it’s a bit early yet.

From numerous discussions with Leave supporters together with reading this article and replies it’s clear that there is a huge diversity of expectations amongst Brexiters, including complete opposites.
An expectation/hope here that it will result in Welsh independence while with others it’s putting the Great back into Great Britain. The only thing in common is seeing voting Leave as the key to a personal desire being realised.
It’s simply not possible for every Brexiter to be happy after a Leave result.

Whatever the reality of a group of manipulating global elites is I haven’t see any rationale that shows that leaving the EU would make them treat Wales any differently than they might do now. Which means any progress towards Welsh independence would be as likely to be sabotaged in a UK out of the EU as it presumably has been with the UK in the EU.

Personally I don’t see voting Leave to send a message to a shadowy global elite providing lasting satisfaction for a voter after they’ve left the polling booth. Surely the elite would quickly get over the setback and just continue with their manipulating but in a slightly different way.

it’s clear that there is a huge diversity of expectations amongst Brexiters,

There’s an equally huge diversity of expectations among Remainers as well when really, if they win, all that will happen is everything will carry on the same – which is not what most Remainers actually want.

We’re in a phase of unrest and uncertainty of which this referendum is just one element. Across the western world more and more people are feeling disenfranchised by a distant elite. They don’t know what to call this elite, or how best to fight it, they just know they’re pissed off with being lied to and patronised. This stage of frustration must develop into something more coherent and focused, and that’s what I’m hoping will come out of a Leave vote, or even a Remain vote.

But from a purely Welsh perspective I want to remove the ‘comfort blanket’ of the EU and expose the Welsh people to the full horrors of a post-Brexit Conservative government that will undermine an impotent and cowardly ‘Welsh’ Government too fearful of stirring up the wrong passions to defend Wales.

I can see the logic of a strategy of cranking up the hurt until “the worm turns”. However that strategy is optimized if an additional grievance is that England took us out of the EU against our wishes. I would be very surprised if the SNP, who many here respect the political acumen of, weren’t thinking on similar lines.
Basically there are two things that push independence forward, enough people have to think they are different and they have to be confident. A Welsh Leave vote that is similar to England’s reinforces how similar we are to England and how confident we are about UK independence.

I don’t think you’ve taken in the full import of how key the maintaining of the EU ‘block’ is to the elites. No one is naive enough to believe that the UK leaving the EU will stop the agenda of the ‘New World Order’ in it’s tracks, however, it will badly interfere with their ultimate goal. That is why the huge panic, and the throwing of everything – including the ‘dirty’ kitchen sink – at the leave campaign. Or haven’t you noticed how much effort is being exerted by the ‘in’ camp? Have you wondered why that is? It’s due to more than the risk of a little wobble in the UK economy, or the fear of lost trade – they have a far bigger fish to fry than that. It’s about a huge set-back lurking in the wings for hem, if we start the ball rolling with an out vote majority on Thursday. Many dominoes will fall after the first one topples – that is a big set-back for the dark suited elites at the centre of the web. They have been working on this ‘New World Order’ agenda for many decades.

You aren’t the only one seeing dominoes falling and there are other Brexiters seeing them fall but in a completely different direction.

For years the Labour party was telling voters in Wales that a vote for Labour was something grander and more important than just an MP in Westminster they the voters were part of advancing International Socialism and bringing about the fall of the Capitalist system.

I imagine you’d have a pretty dim view of submerging the needs of the working people of Wales into the interests of the world’s working class.
At the moment Wales gains financially from the UK’s membership of the EU, so too would an independent Wales at least at first. How is your plea for Welsh voters to effectively not to think just of themselves but vote Leave to get rid of a “New World Order” any different from old Labour’s – vote Labour to bring down the Western Capitalist system.

Certainly agree with Big Gee on that domino effect. It’s obvious from the increasingly belligerent comments from high ranking EU politicians that it’s a real “squeaky bum” time for them. They can picture the prospect of the whole house of cards falling at their feet and they are crapping themselves at the thought. One of the mantras of the Remain camp is about “Leading” not “Leaving”. But what better way to lead than not to follow the herd but to have the guts to stand on your own feet? Yes, it may be taking a bit of a punt, but whoever did anything worthwhile in life slavishly following the Establishment cause? In Wales, if you’re a Labour politician, councillor or one of their acolytes, then of course you’re used to staying in your comfort zone of dependency on the public mammary gland. Me – I’d rather roll the dice in the knowledge that if the Establishment here are telling me it’s in my best interests, then it probably ain’t – ‘cos it’s in theirs instead.

Thanks for the interesting post Jac. I too have wrestled with this issue, but eventually came down on the Remain side, for reasons I’ll explain shortly.

I don’t think the whole ‘world government’ thing is particularly new, as you say. It was the stated aim of liberalism from the start to break down barriers and create a world government. The reasons we didn’t get that however is that everyone thought it was them that should be running this government, and we had a good 200 years of war between empires to decide the matter, which eventually lead to the butchery of two world wars and the fracturing of the world into the nation states we know today (some within the last few decades, such as former USSR countries).

We should also remember that the nation state is largely a liberal idea concocted by the middle class. The idea was to cement the relationship between the middle class and the working class against the aristocracy – and avoid a working class uprising against the middle class exploiting their labour for their own gain. If you really want what’s best for the working class international socialism would probably be the best way forward. Unfortunately the working class in Europe and the USA woudn’t be too keen on that idea as it would mean a drop in their own living standards. However, we should remember that nationalism is ultimately a way of maintaining and protecting the middle class’ investments, while maintaining the working class’ loyalty with bread and circuses. It’s capitalism backed up by an army. While the nation states of the future might well be larger (this will largely be made possible by modern technology), it’s unlikely we’ll see a World Government as, unless we’re invaded by aliens as you suggest, the middle class is largely dependent on the existance of the ‘other’ in order to keep the ‘lower orders’ in check.

Brexit won’t be this big set-back against the elite that your post suggests. It’s largely a battle between the elite v the elite about how neo-liberalism can best be freed from its shackles. The poor worker would be sold at a very cheap price in an ‘independent’ Britain, with none of the safeguards put in place on the European level.
I can’t see Wales voting for independence any time soon. You have to win the economic argument first, and Wales simply isn’t in a situation to do so. The catch-22 of course is that it’s unlikely to find itself in a position to do so while the economic levers are controlled in London. The best hope for Wales to escape this perpetual limbo is English Devolution; that is, England, of its own accord, transfers these powers to Wales by default because it wants them for itself. Even though there are many in Wales arguing for Brexit, and for some good reasons, it is a largely English affair.

I fear that if Brexit does happen, and especially if Wales votes ‘out’, we will see Scotland leave the UK, and we’ll be locked into ‘EnglandandWales’ in perpetuity. However if Wales votes ‘in’ and Brexit happens, we can at least make a positive financial argument for Welsh independence in the EU. The best result however would be Wales voting ‘in’ and a Remain vote across the UK (preferably with England voting ‘out’ but being thwarted by Scotland, Wales and N Ireland). This would turbo-charge English nationalism, and Wales would probably find itself the beneficiary of significant powers over its own economic destiny.

I agree, the best referendum result for Wales’s independence ambition is the Celtic countries locking England into the EU or England locking the Celtic countries out. I find it bizarre that many Welsh Nationalists aren’t seeing this logic which suggests a much more certain direction for any dominoes to fall.

You make some some good points Ifan, IF all that you are using to arrive at your conclusions is the surface stuff that we are being fed by the system, through their dedicated media mouthpieces, that many believe is neutral and balanced truth reporting. That is not the reality. The information that is being presented is carefully processed, so that you and other members of the public (along with many in the establishment, including most of our politicians) base their conclusions on. Conclusions that are based on what you are told and therefore perceive to be the reality. It is not only the ‘remainers’ who are exposed to this, but the vast majority of the ‘leavers’ as well, You can judge that by the limited and surface arguments put forward by both sides.

You have to go much further down the ‘rabbit hole’ to see EXACTLY what is happening in our world – of which the EU is a major pillar.

When we talk of ‘elites’, it is obvious that you and many others assume that we are talking about the privileged, upper classes and political heavyweights. There is a tier far above the ‘elites’ you refer to who live in the shadows. So it is not an elite vs. elite scenario at all, but a miniscule group of people within the ‘web’ whose goal is total control of all the masses on earth. The rest, below that tier, regardless of their class, are the controlled subject matter, be they working class or middle class or any other classes you can list. Many are lulled into an even more shallow conclusion that this referendum is some sort of in-fighting civil war within the Tory party. It is nothing of the kind. The Tory party does not even register as a blip on the radar of the ‘elites’ I am talking about.

Who are they? Well a good starting point would be to examine the ’round table’ and it’s associated ‘tables’.

You need to educate yourself about what is really happening and to fully understand that the NWO cabal have gone well beyond the original “Great British Empire” and has now spread it evil tentacles over most of the planet in setting up many international alliances (EU etc) and more importantly its own army known to us all as NATO. Many countries are indeed now either part of NATO or in Partnership such as most of the Middle East (West and South of Iran), Afghanistan, Pakistan, South Korea, Japan, Australia and New Zealand……to this day it continues to grow with other offshoots known as Partnership of Peace and International Partnership Action Plan.

This is not the first time that the New World Army – NATO has attempted to circle the globe. During and after the cold war NATO created CENTO (Middle East) and SEATO (Asia – Far East) but many of the nations involved realised its true purpose and it failed. We need to enlighten people about what is happening and try to put our shoulder to the wheel to try and scotch it. By voting ‘remain’ you will be helping to advance the cabal in it’s goal.

Whilst my personal dream is to see our tiny country obtain freedom through independence, and to be in control of our own destiny as a free nation, I am also sensible enough to realise that is something that will only ever be possible if the big picture does not remain hidden from us, and the NWO cabal is destroyed. Whilst the cabal have the financial and political control, it is only a handful of people, there are billions on earth. Thankfully they ARE waking up – evidenced by the changes that are being brought about by the masses who, although still in a state of slumber are starting to open their eyes. It is why you have ‘strange’ occurrences, such as the phenomenon of Trump in the US (ignorant idiot as he is, but, out of desperation, perceived as an anti establishment shirt tail to hang on to by the ordinary people of the US), and of course our very own Jeremy Corbyn, and even the changes in Greece and the latest mayoral election in Rome not to mention the political sea changes on the European political scene, when it comes to individual countries. What people need to do here is stop faffing about focusing on the ridiculous subject matter, that is being churned in this referendum debates. OPEN YOUR EYES!

I think you’re over-complicating things a tad. There isn’t a worldwide NWO conspiracy, as there doesn’t need to be. The basic problem, which is clear for all to see, is – as we would say in Welsh – ‘i’r pant y rhed y dwr’. It is easier in a low-tax capitalist system for those who have money to make more money. The result is the opening of a huge gulf between those with money – and with money, power – and everyone else. There’s no secret here – we know half the world’s wealth is in the hands of a very small percentage of people. However, we give this system a free pass because we believe that in a capitalist system anyone can rise to the top – although all evidence suggests this is very unlikely. We also benefit from this system, of course. We complain about the ‘1%’ in our own countries without realising that in global terms most of us are in the 1% (I just checked and I’m in the top 0.29%, on quite a modest income, apparently). It’s very likely that most of the people contributing to this thread have more money in the bank than a hundred people in the poorer parts of the world. Yet we don’t feel guilty about this – and nor do those in the 0.00001% who are worth billions. There’s no conspiracy here, it’s just the human condition.

I challenge you to find anyone that is a bigger anti capitalist than me. I would dearly love to blame capitalism for all the woes in the world – but it ain’t so. Capitalism – manipulation through money – is simply ONE tool in the arsenal of the ones that are behind the New World Order conspiracy. It is a control tool, try living without a bank card or wages in our hand crafted Rothschild run world.

No NWO conspiracy? You need to do more research Ifan bach, a lot of it. Start with Peter Eyre (investigative journalist). The reason you think I’m ‘over-complicating things a tad’ is because you have not yet connected the dots. I don’t blame you, not many can see the big picture until they start the connecting process. Not many have, but more people are beginning to – at an ever increasing and accelerated rate.Hence the unceasing agitation within nations against their rulers and their governing systems across the world.

The EU is just another tool in the arsenal, designed to lead the populations of the world away from their countries, culture and national identities. A stepping stone in the end game of one global, centrally controlled fascist police state government.

Conspiracy theories of which “New World Order” is an example gain popularity because they are seductive. For those who desire a reason for why things are as they are and why we seem powerless to change things the NWO offers a simple convenient explanation. In this case an all powerful interconnected elite are responsible for the ills of the world. Those who promote the idea offer no real evidence apart from drawing a picture by ” joining the dots” of course dots that don’t fit are ignored as is the simple fact that like will associate with like be they billionaire industrialists, tv celebrities or council roadmen.

Conspiracy theories have many similarities with religions. There are those who are enlightened and those that are blind to the truth, they have their charismatic ministers who provide ideas but not proof and there are the uncritical followers who are convinced in their faith.

Before these theories arrived we’d have blamed the ills of the world on a supernatural being such as Satan and his human followers. No actual proof the horned one existed but when people joined the dots…….

You poor gullible, malleable and misguided ‘subject’ – totally programmed aren’t you? What REALLY pisses me off is the poo-pooers who have not done a shred of research themselves, but spout crap that they’ve heard others spout, because throughout their whole life they’ve been brainwashed to react in just the way you have in your post. These are the ‘repeaters’ often typified by the lazy journalists in our media, they prefer to pass on the ‘official line’ or the crap they’ve been fed by the establishment, unlike others like Jac here who does the spade work, asks the awkward questions and reports on his findings – THAT’S what a good investigative journalist does. What is Jac repeatedly accused of being? Surprise, surprise a CONSPIRACY THEORIST!

A classic example was when Michael Portillo in his trademark highbrow manner made the ludicrous remark on a recent “This Week” show, that had David Icke on as a guest. Portillo said that he thought that conspiracy theorists (*a derogatory term hatched by the CIA incidentally to trash the idea of conspiracies) were “intellectually lazy”. When asked by Icke if he had read one page of his last but one book which is 1,000 pages long, based on hard worked research, Portillo had to sheepishly admit he hadn’t. So who’s ‘intellectually lazy” when it comes to making sweeping statements that haven’t been researched?

Rather than pontificating on conspiracies, (and those that reveal them), by repeating a clever line here and there, try doing a bit of the research yourself ‘Anonymous’. THEN come back here and give us the benefit of your research results. It might be an eye-opener for you.
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* “Conspiracy theory’s acutely negative connotations may be traced to liberal historian Richard Hofstadter’s well-known fusillades against the “New Right.” Yet it was the Central Intelligence Agency that likely played the greatest role in effectively “weaponizing” the term. In the groundswell of public skepticism toward the Warren Commission’s findings on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the CIA sent a detailed directive to all of its bureaus. Titled “Countering Criticism of the Warren Commission Report,” the dispatch played a definitive role in making the “conspiracy theory” term a weapon to be wielded against almost any individual or group calling the government’s increasingly clandestine programs and activities into question”.

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In his 2008 essay “See No Evil” in Online Journal, David Cogswell writes, “Conspiracy theories are not about conspiracies, they are about forbidden thought. The label “conspiracy theory” is a stop sign on the avenues of rational thought and inquiry. It says, ‘Stop here. Entrance forbidden.’”

So how is the term “conspiracy theory” ridiculed and dismissed? One way, of course, is through the news media (by definition, a conspiracy theory is advanced when someone thinks the media aren’t telling the whole story – or any of it). When the media use the term, it’s to describe something “those people think.” The question is always, “Why do they think this?” not: “Are they right?”

On the Freedom of Speech article comments section at Anonymous 08/06/16 09:40 I provided you with links showing categorically that the term “Conspiracy theory” was used many decades before the CIA was created.

The machinations of Housing Associations and the Labour Party in Wales, the British nationalist propaganda of the press and BBC for example, these are not “Conspiracy theories” for reasons
1. There is actual evidence and not just dots to join.
2. The effect they have does not rely on some mystical secret elite, we know of many of the protagonists and others are uncovered with effort.

The New World Order, The Illuminati, Lizard People and Martian slave colonies ideas promoted by those hard working researchers you seem to admire are “conspiracy theories”. The similarities with religions are clear.

The existence of the EU is proof that it must have been created by the NWO
The existence of the human race is proof that we were created by God.

There is a difference. The position of there being a God is not falsifiable and requires faith. The position that a world government exists is falsifiable because it has definable characteristics that could be disproven with relevant evidence. As such it can be theoretically established in a way that does not require faith.

We cannot prove that either God or the NWO doesn’t exist therefore both are non falsifiable at least to the devout.
“Proof” for believers of both relies on observing x and attributing it to y without evidence for the mechanism linking them.

You suggest yourself that a NWO is falsifiable to the non devout. That is the difference. Faith is not necessary when there are falsifiable characteristics, evidence finding is necessary. For instance one falsifiable criteria could be whether there is high power decision making being more locally cocentrated? If so then the NWO theory is rocked. God can’t be analysed in this way.

A entity that may be hidden is either valid or not and its existence can at least be endeavoured to be revealed or not revealed with varying degrees of success or failure. This analysis is also important for those that wish to maintain their position of its non existence, not just claim something is non existent without evidence. Is that not also blind faith?

I agree that false correlation of evidence is a problem for any method of examination and that ‘dot joining’ needs to be logical and unbiased. But at least a non supernatural concept like NWO as opposed to God can be attempted to be revealed if it exists, whether it is done skilfully or not. For some a NWO belief or non belief maybe more like a religion if they accept blindly but for those who examine it becomes more fact based. Even scientists are guilty of trying to put square pegs into round holes sometimes but that doesn’t make scientific method invalid.

You’re sleepwalking in a zombified stupor. You’ve also missed the point, regarding the use of the term “conspiracy theory”. It’s the negative connotation of the term that has been developed to encompass the way the term is used that I’m drawing attention to, as I’ve written above “it was the Central Intelligence Agency that likely played the greatest role in effectively “weaponizing” the term“.

Obviously “where it ain’t you can’t put it” as the Cockneys say. It is impossible to (re)educate pork, as you’re fast proving to me, because instead of researching and reasoning all you want to do is give us the benefit of your assumptions, based on what you’ve been programmed to believe. Instead yu should be doing the research yourself and then giving us the benefit of your conclusions.

As for linking the subject to religion, well that’s a rather tentative connection. You obviously have a problem with religion (as I do to an extent with man-made organised religions, in fact the only connection is that the established Roman Catholic church, and it’s other sprouts are actually part of the conspiracy).

However, there is another connection, that works the other way. When some of the more enlightened taught that the world was round the majority, including the clergy viewed them as being heretic and mad. I’m pretty sure I know on which side of that debate you’d have fallen on in that period – without peering through a telescope yourself!.

You carry on thinking that everything is fine, the way you’ve been told it is – like a good obedient boy. The penny WILL drop, but probably too late for you to say “oops”.

The term “conspiracy theory” was invented in 1905 so as to have a negative connotation. Whoever wrote the book that told you the CIA invented the term was wrong either through incompetence/laziness or by deliberate deceit.

The modern day myth that educated people believed that the earth was flat in medieval Europe is not true. In Europe the Greeks had the idea of a spherical earth and it remained in various texts right down to Columbus who like others knew the earth was spherical because of the physical and astrological observations that had been made ie evidence.

There’s plenty of articles on the web about both of the above Wiki is a good place to start if you’re not against being (re)educated.

I won’t waste any more of my energy on a bigoted automaton. You’re obviously a sad case of a close-minded and rigid object of the system.

People perpetuate false information, often unknowingly, because they are quoting or relying on other people’s information. Each of us needs to engage in independent objective research, and always use critical thinking when reading the “research” of others. Think for yourself, instead of thinking the way others want you to think.

Until you can start doing some objective research of your own, and start reading & understanding what others say without being unreasonable (as you insist on not understanding what I have written here previously), whilst assuming from sources like Wiki instead of studying and analysing for yourself, then drop it, because you’re digging a deeper hole for yourself that’s fuelled by a narrow minded conformist perspective. Ask yourself who really needs RE educating, because the guff you’re spreading is what we’re all educated to believe.

It’s very easy to dismiss the NWO conspiracy as far fetched bollocks dreamed up by deluded nutters who need to get out more. No one was more sceptical than me, especially when poor David Icke is on the case, let’s face it the man is seen with nothing but ridicule by 99% of the world who have heard of him but what if the man is right? Do the research as Gwilym asks and see for yourself what you think, I did and I found it worrying, I would welcome you to come back and tell us that it is rubbish.

My problem with the EU is that it has allowed the sponging Taffiata to grow rich on EU handouts in Wales, money which is intended to ease the poverty in the valleys, but all it’s used for is to give cushy non-jobs to middle class, often Labour Party members, or even English incomers to ‘manage’ funds because the natives are ‘not able to work themselves out of poverty’. A Brexit will not solve this issue, indeed it would exaggerate it, giving these spongers direct access to regional assistance grants from London. I think Plaid Cymru should follow the lead provided by the SNP and in that way, the recent electoral victory in Rhondda can rout the Taffiata in the rest of the valleys.

Yes, there is contingent of workless ‘blame the immigrants’ in the valleys, (Merthyr, Blackwood) and they can be a bit chopsy, but they don’t vote. It’s for this reason I think remain will win in all the home nations except in Northern Ireland, and patches of work-shy English spongers in coastal pockets of Kent (Cliftonville, Margate), Essex (Southend), North Wales coast (English trailer trash in Rhyl) and Lincolnshire (The Kipperlands).

If there’s a ‘remain’ vote, I’d then like to see Leanne in the Senedd ask Hamilton and Gill – “Why are you here?” Which is polite speak for “Now fuck off back to England get a proper job”.

Plaid Cymru is also wedded to the Third Sector, and so the waste of public money on those capitalising on and celebrating our deprivation rather than eradicating it could be even worse with Plaid running the show.

I expect Northern Ireland to vote Remain because both sides in the North benefit from cross-border trade and the easy flow of people and goods. A strengthened border will take us back to smuggling and perhaps the Troubles, with Republicans arguing that the only way to achieve a united Ireland is through violence.

Which may explain why the polls suggest a clear cross-community majority in NI wants to stay in the EU.

They are more Union Jack than the English. The DUP get 60% of the vote in the northern counties. As you say, even a majority of the ‘loyalist’ community support remain, due to the proximity and trading relationship with the republic. This has profound implications. It opens up the possibility of the unification of the island of Ireland, with the consent of the protestant community in the north. It is the result in the northern counties that will prove interesting. It could have implications far deeper than even Scotland.

The DUP may get 60% of the Unionist vote, but the UUP, SF and SDLP all favour Remain. Sinn Fein has even said that in the event of a UK Brexit vote it will push for a referendum on Irish reunification.

So it’s unification of Ireland, independence for Scotland, the final absorption of Wales into England. Interesting times.

I have an immediate problem with Tesco Direct. I reserved online a black chest of drawers in my shopping basket, yesterday, for a bargain price of £184, intending to complete the transaction today (pay day). Logged in this morning and found an email that it’s now “out of stock” and this item removed from my shopping basket. However, the item is still available online at Wayfair (priced in Euros).It’s a Danish manufacturer and shopped directly on behalf of Tesco, and other websites. I don’t believe that there’s a sudden overnight dearth of bedroom furniture.

Tesco don’t hold stocks, they just re-sell on contract from EU manufactures. I bought the same item last month and the order tacking texts told me when if left Denmark, when it was in Tesco depot and when it was dispatched on the M4. Either the manufacturer is no longer selling to Tesco (doubt it) or the contract with Tesco was contract price (EUR-GBP) dependent.

Going to Cardiff on the weekend.
Ikea reserve and collect, they hold it in stock but same item more expensive.

I was wrong in my previous comment saying “the chopsy blame the immigrants people in the valleys don’t vote”. They did. These are the disaffected Labour voters who also wanted to give Cameron and the ‘establishment’ a kicking.

The vote was very close in RCT. Plaid got their vote out for remain in Rhondda but the residual Labour vote and the Cynon and Taff-Ely lost it to Leave. Inevitably there will be calls for reunification in Ireland and a new referendum for independence in Scotland. I think in Wales there should be another referendum, with a very different question, and Leanne should call for it.

Should WALES be a part of the EU? Yes/No.

This does not concern the British parliament, to the valleys, a sort of government by proxy. People in the valleys did not vote for Cameron, and certainly did not vote for Boris or Ian Duncan Smith. Ukip were very clever not to parade Farage but for Labour to parade Kinnock and Corbyn down Gelliwastad Road and Taff Street was the most ineffective way of getting Remains onto the ballot paper, just a sure way of pissing off the last of the donkey vote.

There are whole streets in Rhondda where y ddraig goch is hanging from the bedroom windows. I know those houses voted Leanne in the Welsh elections. Then a few weeks later you re-visit the household asking for a Remain and find the bloke who lives there is not voting as “he’s on tour in France supporting Wales”. This is the ‘working skilled’, a bit of cash for a ticket with beer and time off work to see the football. Often referred affectionately as Dai the welder or Jones the plumber.

Conversely the households that previously had ‘Vote Leighton Andrews’ in the window is still occupied by some Stella can wielding tattooed arsehole on benefits with names like Chantelle and Wayne, displaying a ‘Leave’ poster. It would be ‘politically incorrect’ for Plaid Cymru to say that, but I’ll say it.

There are two working classes in the valleys. The workers and the non-workers. They vote different. It also should be noted that the Leave majority over Remain in Wales was only 82,000. There’s over 100,000 Welsh fans (the real working class) still in France with no ballot box being accessible. Didn’t Cameron realise Wales would be in the final 16 when he called the referendum?

Very interesting Jac and it goes without saying,I respect you and your exposures immensely. I had committed myself to a yes vote but am now having serious concerns about this choice.i suppose deep down I agreed with all you said but thought.we could (a) change the EU from inside or (b) leave as an Indy nation if we couldn’t ,but am now wondering if it is in Wales’ best interests to remain. Once again diolch for getting me to re-think my position

Following the English / Russian hooligan skirmishes in Marseille, The Polish fans are now on the rampage in Nice. So far 100 cars have been valeted and waxed, 50 boilers repaired and 5 walls have been built on time at the quoted price.

As a Welsh nationaIist, I find myself in the slightly peculiar position of intending to vote Remain as an assertion of Wales’s national identity, in a referendum which is in essence a vote about Independence for England, but actually wanting Leave to win!

It is odd to find myself in agreement with people like Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, but I think that their central argument about the complete lack of democratic accountability within the EU, and its essential distance from ordinary people is absolutely right.. For me, the EU is just a further historical example of an empire which eventually becomes too powerful, over stretches itself and thus collapses. Think the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire and the Soviet Empire. In time, I believe we will come to realise that the way the Euro was introduced and imposed on such widely diverging economies was a blunder of monumental proportions, and the inhumane way the EU has treated Greece has surely alerted people to the fact that this is an organization which is completely oblivious to the needs of ordinary people, and is only concerned with the “project” of further centralization and integration, whatever the cost.

If it is a Leave vote as I expect tomorrow, there are obviously clear dangers for Wales. We will be ruled by a right-wing, English conservative government, who will undoubtedly push the line of “we have got to stick together” to face this new challenge. They may well attempt to repatriate the powers returning to the Uk from Brussels to Westminster, and refuse any further powers to the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament because of a resurgent “Greater England”mentality.

However, the prospect of right-wing, English, Conservative government in perpetuity in the UK will surely prove to be the ultimate fillip for the Welsh national cause.Our only protection against it will be the Welsh national identity, and that can only be expressed through Independence for Wales. I believe that even die-hard Labour voters in the valleys of Wales will eventually realise that this our only option. But our independence has got to be won beyond the convential political arena as well. It has to become a popular movement beyond the individual aspirations of 60 members in the Assembly.The current success of the Welsh national soccer team at the Euros could well herald this type of popular movement, since one of its key features is the fact that it has brought together Welsh people from all over Wales, Welsh-speakers and English speakers in a common purpose, representing and presenting Wales on the European stage.

My idea scenario for Wales following Brexit would be Independence in Britain, with Wales, England and Scotland all independent, but working collectively similar to the Scandinavian model of Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

If your hope is for an independent Welsh state I can’t see how voting Remain helps. For Brussels the nation state is the problem. It is a body that causes war and bloodshed for its near neighbours, which is a leading exploiter of the third world, that has made collectivist solutions to social ills unconstitutional and always supports the big corporations against localism.

We can all see that the EU is anti-democratic with its refusal to accept referendum results, it is a bully of small nations like Greece and Ireland, whose citizens were forced to bail out the excesses of the bankers. Like all bullies it is an abject coward when faced with a more powerful state in the shape of the USA. Then it does what it is told, even when that hurts the interests of its own citizens.

I cannot understand how any serious Welsh patriot can consider voting Remain. Do they think Brussels would welcome another seat at the table, the idea is laughable. The idea is to get rid of nations, especially small ones, not promote a process of self-determination. Plaid think they can reform the EU, again the idea is a joke.

Elections will still count if we Leave and I can see no basis for this belief that an independent UK would inevitably be Right wing. We are facing a period of economic turmoil and a real possibility of American and EU inspired war with Russia and China, god help us. Meanwhile Remain resorts to lies and insults and the death of an MP to make up for the intellectual and moral vacuum that is the EU.

We hear a lot about European values, personally I would prefer a Welsh national movement wedded to human values including the historic values of the Welsh people, a sizeable proportion of whom are dismissed as racists and simpletons by the gravy trainers and virtue signalers of Remain.

Of the 28 sovereign member states of the EU there are two with populations up to 50% higher than Wales -Croatia 4.2 and Ireland 4.6 and seven with populations lower than Wales – Cyprus 0.8, Estonia 1.3, Latvia 2.0, Lithuania 2.9, Luxemburg 0.6, Malta 0.4 and Slovenia 2.0 (figures in millions to nearest 100 000). All apart from Ireland and Luxemburg gaining membership since 2004. Three others have populations of less than 6 million. The EU can hardly be seriously described as anti small nations

You are talking about independent states within the EU, so why make the invalid comparison with Wales? This sounds very much like a criticism I made in the blog, that Plaid Cymru has used EU membership to pretend that it’s some substitute for independence.

I agree with you that Westminster will not grant us independence, but neither will the EU.

Only we can grant ourselves independence. If we were independent and in the EU we would have significantly more independence than as in any form of devolved or federalized UK nation state.
There are loads of small European nations who see their best interests as being EU members. Of the handful of nations outside the EU Norway is the most comparable to Wales and it only left because it’s Whaling heritage was important to them. It’s still sees its best interests lie as being part of the European Economic Area which means it gets a big chunk of it’s legislation “via Fax” from Brussels! But that’s OK because it can still carry on harpooning whales.

I agree that “only we can grant ourselves independence” but my argument is that the EU is being used by Plaid Cymru and others as a ‘comfort blanket’ and a substitute for independence. For those reasons I want to see the political and constitutional chaos and the economic uncertainty that Brexit would bring in order to strip away the ‘comfort blanket’ and help our people make big, big decisions.

Having mentioned Norway, you might have added that the oil reserves also play a part in the decision to stay out, for the EU would definitely be asking for a very hefty contribution were Norway a member. Thanks to the Sovereign Wealth Fund, based on the oil reserves, every Norwegian is, in theory, a millionaire.

There is something to be said for the “political and constitutional chaos and the economic uncertainty that Brexit would bring” being a catalyst for Welsh independence.
I feel that there would also be a good chance of that, delayed somewhat, if the celtic countries’ vote locked England into the EU. For various reasons I think that would give us a better negotiating position with England and continued membership of a EU which looking at it in a selfish way would contribute significantly to the start-up costs of independence.

“…and always supports the big corporations against localism.”
It’s British business mentality that’s obsessed with the here and now bottom line.
It’s the EU not Westminster that is responsible for getting PGI, Protected Geographical Indication, implemented across the EU. An effect is that it protects local producers and their workers from big corporations.

For example Ginsters have to make their Cornish Pasties (granted PGI in 2011) in Cornwall and even if the company is bought up by Big Corporation Pasties Inc their Cornish pasties will still have to be made in Cornwall rather than in some higher profit generating centrally located bakery in the Midlands.

For me, I want out of the EU, I want out with a passion, I have many reasons ranging from bent bananas, £161m wasted weekly to stay to the main subject of this post. I cannot think of a single reason why we should stay if we ever wish to gain our independence from England rule. We could be a great little nation if we only believed in ourselves and regained that backbone which we have lost

If it’s a Remain vote you can at least rest easy regarding your bananas.

The curved shape of a banana is referred to in Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 but it only really applies to “Extra class” bananas. I’ve only seen “Class 1” and “Class 2” bananas for sale but I imagine a guest staying at the Hilton or Ritz might expect the superior curvature of a “Extra class” banana in their fruit bowl.

The rest of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 covers unimportant stuff ensuring the bananas sold to us are fit for human consumption, not “affected by rotting”, clean, free of pests and damage from pests, free from bruising and free of any foreign smell or taste. Maybe you think that’s bananas as well.

It’s amazing me how everyone is sucked in and duped into hypothetical debates on subjects that are totally irrelevant to the reality, and which have been hand-picked for you to debate over. Will someone please put on some wide angle lenses so that they can see the big picture on a global scale.

Do you not realise that all the shit you’ve been fed via the media, and the subject material talked about in debates, like the one last night on the BBC & tonight on BBC Wales (a ‘Mini Me’ version) are just handfuls of dust being thrown in your eyes – it’s an illusion. Jeez, so true that old saying “there are none as blind as those who do not want to see”.

It’s NOT about the economy, it’s NOT about immigration, it’s NOT about independence, it’s NOT even about democracy, it’s a total sham, and the most amazing thing of all is that the political fannies on both sides (with the exception of a handful in the ‘Remain’ camp who are totally clued up on the reality & are a part of the machinations) are equally as blind about the reality as the gullible public. If it wasn’t so pathetic but serious I’d piss myself laughing!

Are you still trying to work out why there’s such a panic to make sure this referendum will go the right way for the ones in the shadows? It’s not rocket science. Then we have those whose blinkers are so close to their eyes that they’re off on a tangent – pondering how the whole issue will effect Welsh independence. Talk about ‘straining the gnat whilst swallowing a camel’!

If you have any sense you’ll vote OUT (LEAVE) – to help scupper the totalitarian tip-toe that the EU is a major component of. If it’s allowed to advance to it’s conclusion there will not be one country or nation on earth that will either be free or independent, including our beloved little patch called Cymru.

Yes, I think you are right Jac, after all the EU was a CIA project from the outset and with the likes of Obama, Soros, the banks, Mandelson, Blair et al willing us all to vote remain, that should be a good enough reason to vote out.

interesting reading as usual, althugh i have voted remain, but have doubts as a result of what the Eurocrats did to Greece, which was shocking, & the way they have dealt with refugees amongst other things. The problem i have with the Leave camp , especially here in Wales is the quality of their argument and the fact that they are a load of wankers. The other thing is the fact that EU funding has financed many projects along the years but has been totally abused not by EUrope but by the county councils, enterprises, gvt bodies that have adminstered them, i know cos i worked for one of those cowboy set ups.
With regards to the awful death of Jo Cox, and whilst not denying that the woman was a good activist and a principled campaigner, the “grief” business has gone a bit beserk in the UK since the demise of Lady Di. However the perpetrator as you say is probably some kind of loner but the constant “immigrant diatribe” by the media. UKIP and Farage on our TV stations influences people who are unstable the same as ISIS videos on the internet influence your local neighourhood jihadi. The English media have vilified froeigners so much that it seems quite acceptable to slag off foreigners and say the most awful god damn things about them just for being foreign. This makes me very worried for the future. And the worse thing is that Welsh people rage about foreigners who they hardly ever come across, whilst blithely igoring the card carrying thicko immigrant English UKIPers living in our midst.
Starting to rant now so will sign off

I wouldn’t blame the “immigration diatribe” on the death of Jo Cox, I would focus more on who was also behind the Dr. Kelly (bad suicide Joke) and the strange cases of others like Robin Cook (a healthy fit man suffering a heart attack out of the blue on a mountainside). I don’t believe in coincidences. All these odd deaths and even stranger media reports afterwards all happened when the occurrence was tied up with a tight spot at the time for the establishment. No, sorry but much as I don’t like the Kippers, Farrage or the US spawned and funded ISIS, I don’t think you can dump that one on their doorstep.

Glad to say I’ve just cancelled out your ‘Remain’ vote with my own ‘Leave’ vote!

Interestingly, the judge presiding over the Jo Cox case also presided over the Lee Rigby case and made the controversial decision of deciding that Lord Janner was not fit to stand trial on multiple child abuse charges!

To add to what you have already mentioned, about the convenient timing of such a shocking event etc which could only benefit the leave campaign, is how difficult it is to understand how Jo Cox’s family could face the media, so soon after the brutal murder of their loved one and to not completely fall apart, while doing so, all very strange.

I think that must have been a slip of the pen Jac. It was honey on the fingertips of the Remain camp (or so they had calculated). What creased me up and made me writhe in sickly embarrassment was the incessant British media bulletins that everyone (not just governments) ACROSS THE WORLD were shocked and issuing condolences! Amazing! Can anyone here truthfully say that they had ever heard of her, or knew who she was before this week? A very dodgy few days indeed . . . . .

The bottom line is – was her life more precious than the life of someone’s innocent mother or child being murdered by US bombs in the Middle East? Or the life of Jean Charles da Silva e de Menezes when he was shot FIVE times in the head – whilst lying on the floor – by British ‘Storm-troopers’ in London? An innocent man going about his business. Anyone charged with murder? Of course not!

And don’t get me started on the stinking paedophile rings of Westminster – including the likes of Janner and the crooked judiciary used to sit on these cases. It stinks to high heaven, and some still need convincing about conspiracies?

That’s enough – back to the latest on the count, whilst I can still stay awake. Looking good so far for us ‘Leavers’!

Peter Hain, Stephen Kinnock, Tony Blair, Alastair Campbell…………..your boys took a hell of a beating. And I’m over the frigging moon! You can take a donkey to water, but you can’t make it drink. Your disgusting, negative campaigning based on fear, name calling, dog whistle politics, outright lies, and also plumbing the depths of invoking the tragic murder of an MP, has had its just desserts. You’ve been found out and shown the door. Your vile slander and libel of decent people whom you’ve ridden high on the backs of has been called to account. I’ve not included many other politicians from all sides because their Twitter accounts did not spill out the disgusting bile that yours did. But people like me have been linked with others called things like racist, Nazi, fascist, bigot, idiot and even killer and many other derogatory terms by you and your retweets just for having the temerity to want to vote Out. You should be ashamed to have misread and misrepresented the people who put the finest bread on your plates. I will never forget the abuse you levied on people like me and you have now reaped what you have sown. Now do me a favour, crawl away under a stone and never darken my door again. Sorry, Jac, that’s my rant of the day over. But, boy, it was a late night for me but do I feel good today. It’s only one step on a long journey but it’s one in the right direction. Scottish referendum next?

Well said, Stan. I stayed up all night dancing and enjoying every second of it, seeing the metropolitan elites getting their comeuppance. The one who spoke the most sense was a Labour MP named Mann (I think) who stated quite clearly that it was Labour supporters in the neglected areas of England and Wales that had won this referendum.

But then I realised why I detest Labour so much when Chuka Umunna was on. Because even by the standards of the Labour hierarchy this bloke is arrogant and fucking patronising. But they don’t seem to learn – what a vote loser!

This referendum gave me all I wanted. Labour (and to a lesser extent, Plaid) get stuffed in Wales; Scotland talking of a second independence referendum; the north of Ireland in turmoil; and the gulf between London and England shown up yet again. Interestingly, we also seem to have a gulf between Cardiff and the rest of Wales. The politics we have known is gone forever, and few will miss it.

It was worth staying up to see the shock and near tear despondency on the faces of the Remain politicians. There’s a lot of sore balls around today after that kicking last night! Almost as delightful as watching England’s arrogant sports supporters when they get beaten in any tournament! Don’t you just love it?

These ‘all nighters’ really exhaust me these days, so I didn’t want to finish myself off dancing like you Jac, although I could be easily tempted to! What a result! I just love the way the nationalists in NI and Scotland have not wasted a minute in setting out their stalls, isn’t it a shame we haven’t got the same option here in our country? We’ve only got a ‘jelly fish’ party that passes for nationalists here, but times are a-changing.

I found myself in a strange situation willing Scotland to go ‘Remain’ to trigger a second independence referendum, whilst biting my nails they might overdo it and tip the balance for the rest of the UK. As it turns out, it was a perfect result, because even if Scotland want to genuinely be a part of the EU there won’t be an EU for them to join as an independent nation after this little lot plays out.

Plan B? You betcha. It’s already showing up. They’ve been up all night scheming in Brussels and London, after they saw the pear shape appearing. They’ll get together to see how they can put the skids on this. Have you noticed the tone from EU spokesmen this morning? Implementation of Article 50 & all that. New laws will need to be agreed and written to accommodate the change, the 1972 Communities Act will have to be repealed etc. etc. etc. It seems the same old technique will be employed, Wrap it up in lots of awkward time wasting procedures, try to exert as much hurt as possible – as punishment – whilst doing it, drag their feet, look for loopholes in the small print to extend the time-line, basically they’ll pour thick treacle all over it, in the hope that with time it will all return to business as usual, despite what the obligations are. We saw a similar version of it after the promises made before the first Scottish independence referendum, which are still to be fully implemented. They’ll slow it down so much that people will start to forget what it was all about. We mustn’t let that happen, but it will be a hell of a job.

The shadowy figures in the background will now start throwing money and resources at this problem, use their power and influence from across the pond to invoke lots of detractions, even start a war or two that will be so serious that everyone’s attention will be drawn away from this on the grounds of ‘security’ or ‘national threat’ and the need to get together to fight a common enemy (keep your eyes on China & Russia). Wars are a handy tool in the box for these people. After all, the EU was hatched in the wake of two world wars that were staged for a specific far sighted purpose.

The cherry on the cake was Cameron’s resignation this morning – as Alex Salmond correctly predicted in an interview in the wee hours of this morning. It was what I also expected (it’s the norm isn’t it?). Although some from the Tory Leave camp were spouting crap like “we need a steady pair of hands to guide us through this” and “Cameron is a capable man of principle who will execute the will of the people until the next election”. What a load of bollocks, He’d already been given the hara-kiri dagger months ago by his masters – should he fail. And people believe it was his own flash decision this morning? Fat chance!

One of the criticisms I heard from the Remain camp during the night was that the SNP did not get out enough of its supporters. For example, the turnout in Glasgow was only 56.2%, as opposed to 75% in the 2014 independence referendum. But obviously, if the Scots had turned out in the same numbers as 2014 then it might have given us a Remain vote across the UK. (But the Leave vote in England would have presented us with another form of entertainment.)

As it happened, things worked out just perfect. We’ve got the UK Leave vote we wanted; Scotland can push on to independence, even phrasing the referendum question, ‘Do you want to remain in the EU?’; while Ireland is looking very confused but with change inevitable; while here both Labour and Plaid Cymru have been undermined.

There will be no such place as Ceredigion.
It will be re-named Cardi del Sol.

The best part of a million English ‘ex-pats’ who have retired to Andalucia and Costa-del-Sol, and as EU citizens, have benefited from free healthcare, UK state pension top-ups and even winter fuel allowance. These “ex-pats” are now on the move. The can sell their beachside villas to the Dutch and the Germans, and return to the UK. Do you honestly believe they will return to Streatham, or West Bromwich? Ceredigion is ideal for them. Nice villages by the sea, access to free healthcare in the twighlight years at Bronglais Hospital, comparatively reasonable house prices, keep their UK pension handouts, even extra social care top-ups courtesy of the Welsh Government.

They didn’t learn to speak Spanish or Catalan.
Why do you think they will learn Cymraeg?

Perhaps there will be Ar Werth / En Venta boards outside houses in Tywyn and Aberaeron? Available to tanned Brummie fresh back from Spain seeks replacement retirement home near the beach, access to GP surgery essential, offers over €400k.

nothing stopping native Welsh from withholding on Sales to undesirables ……oh I forgot, greed is still a major instinct in our makeup !
Seriously though some form of enforcement is required otherwise that scenario could come to fruition and having a bunch of relatively wealthy, sick incomers could blow apart what remains of NHS in West Wales and indeed N.W.Wales. It would also distort further the housing market shutting even more youngsters out of the prospect of ever owning their own homes in that region. However these repatriated souls would greatly enrich the cultural and lingusitic mix ……………….oh there I go again desperately trying to see a non existent funny side to a life or death situation.

There will be a significant proportion of the elderly ‘ex-pats’ on the Costa’s who will not be able to purchase property in Wales outright, and they will not be able to get a top-up mortgage due to age and local authorities will have a duty of care over them due to their frailty.

However, they have no residual ‘native’ local authority connection back in in England. The five year residency rule applies in England and any ‘family connection’ at that age are usually dead. The London Borough of Redbridge has been appointed as a ‘safety net’ caretaker by the Westminster Government, a role they have had ever since a Monserat volcano went off in the Caribbean and re-settled the Brits. Redbridge have the luxury to make ‘inside’ bids on MoD restate, and are currently shopping for housing assets across England and Wales.

They have a policy of resettlement of Asians with Asians, Blacks with Blacks, and Whites with Whites. I know this sounds racist but this policy is explained by sociology gurus as encouraging integrated ‘settled communities’. It might be wise to keep an eye on MoD land at Castlemartin, Aberporth, and Epynt. I have a hunch that tanned white geriatrics from the Costa’s will start to appear. Local authorities in Wales cannot compete with the kind of money the London boroughs have to splash around, leapfrogging the local hosing need in the ‘provinces’, or perhaps the technically bankrupt Welsh ‘housing associations’ will get a nice earner out of the deal.

just back from a 7 day break, a time away from almost any form of comms ( mobile phone with voice and text capacity only, which I never used ! ). So I’m tuning into this for first time this evening, after today’s result was announced so the deed is done. I too voted to leave the EU. Like you I don’t take any shine to these big power blocs with lots of grey men ( well mostly men ) thinking they can move us all around like some giant game. I don’t think we’ve got a NWO pulling the strings ( yet ) but these grey people would dearly love to achieve that as part of their “we know better than you” stance. So my vote was essentially a protest vote against a political trend which I oppose.

Having gained its slim majority the Brexit falange now has to earn its corn, and that’s where it could turn nasty. Wales with its hugely dependent mindset could be in for a bit of a financial rogering from the London regime that will wish to show how smart it is at cutting out “waste”. Already I’ve heard dear Carwyn waffle on about a revised Barnett, sounding eerily like Cameron chirping about a revised EU ! Then dear Ms Wood rolls out that old line about “civic society getting its collective finger out” or words to that effect. Well it’s our version of “civic society ” that’s guided us into the shit fest that we find ourselves in right now. Too eager to get positive reviews in the Guardian, too willing to sip fine wines with the shits at Goldman Sachs and other banksters who have their fingerprints all over the mess that is the EU and its subservient governments today, too quick to set aside any independent critical thinking that yells out that the Emperor is already down to his last pair of drawers and may be bollocks naked at the next meeting ! So don’t put your defensive arms away just yet ( to paraphrase a certain James Connolly !) be on guard because the first signs of betrayal will be in the wind by the autumn, about when the slimebag Cameron slings his hook and takes up the first of many sinecures with some global NGO, finance/ exploitation agency or similar. Despite failing his masters will look after him.

One last point of observation. About Jo Cox. Regardless of what’s been said above I can think of several thousands that should have stopped a bullet, indeed suffered any form of violence, before her. It does occur to me however that the “lone nut” theory is far too easily fitted into the circumstances. Thomas Mair may indeed have been a “nut” but I suspect that he was lined up to do a deed some time earlier by pro EU agents who were manouvering him to hit a soft target which would make him a hero ( in his own silly head if no where else ). There were a good few pro EU Labour MP’s ( and Tories too ) in that region so he could take his pick and get his week of infamy. The desired result was that such a vicious dastardly deed would sicken the public and swing a chunk of votes. It didn’t work, and a life was wasted, stolen by a madman and the bastards behind him.

When you factor in a number of things you realise how impressive this Leave vote was.

First, there was the murder of Jo Cox and the shameless way the Remain camp exploited it. This must have swayed quite a few people.

Second, the deadline for registering to vote was extended so that perhaps three million – mainly young people – could register in order to boost the Remain vote.

Third, most of the media and the party machines were on the side of Remain, as was big business, the US president and God knows who else.

Fourth, inner London boroughs voted heavily for Remain, due in no small part to their large migrant populations.

Fifth, outside of London, in relatively prosperous cities like Manchester and Bristol there were good wins for Remain. Also in Liverpool, which may have seen more EU funding than the Valleys.

All of which tells me that among the native, working class English – especially in former industrial areas and cities like Hull and Bradford – there must have been a massive vote for Brexit. These are Labour’s voters. Which means that the Labour Party, now controlled by activists and ideologues scratching a living in the former Islington coalfield, is in deep, deep shit.

One final observation. One of the big ‘selling points’ of the EU was that it had ‘brought peace’ to Europe for 70 years. So why did that message not resonate with those in the 65+ age group that might have had a father or an older brother fighting in WWII, or might even have fought themselves?

Too right, Remain had all the deck neatly stacked in its favour but the house of cards fell down flat ! It is amply evident that the English working class and the bit of middle class that does “real work” for a living are totally sucked off with what they see of Labour and the Cameron/Osborne et al Tory clan. Nigel falange really fancies rolling up a lot of this traditional Labour and swing zones to give himself and UKIP a serious presence after the next election. He certainly won’t pack it all in now as a “job done” as he will now position himself as “honest john” keeping all these other dodgy bastards i.e Tories and Brexit Labour, on the straight and narrow. God help us ! He’s about as straight as a camel’s back.

No doubt, as Gee said earlier Ceredigion went out to protect grants and subsidies, while Cardiff had to back Remain cos it has really cornered the market in begging bowl manipulation.

I don’t think that extending voter registration did anything much. Indeed it might have opened the door for some “Leaver” votes among those who were slow to get fired up by the antics of Boris and his pals, who you have to admit is a lot more of a witty vote catcher than that other boring Old Etonian fart, particularly among the lower levels of the Anglo social hierarchy where Cameron is regarded as a real crock of shit with dubious masculinity.

In general it might be as much of a reaction from the English regions to the London centric regime currently in place. Oddly enough down in Cornwall there was a lot of noise about “Leave” with people pissed off by Brussels bureaucracy and remoteness, but also expressing a similar distrust of those bastards up in London. They weren’t talking about tube train drivers and road sweepers.

Llongyfarchiadau.
Two big groups predominately voted Leave, the elderly and those often referred to as “chavs”, an unlikely coalition but it was successful.
Only the 85+ demographic could possibly have played an active part in WWII, the only unquestionably just War the UK has been involved in. Maybe the 65-85 group wanted to make up for missing it by stamping their mark on Britain making it great again.

As to the “chav” group, many of whom had never bothered to vote before it remains to be seen if they bother to vote again. in any case could those in Wales be mobilized to vote for Welsh Independence after they so enthusiastically put Britain first?

There’s going to be pain in the short term but the longer term will see England weathering the storm. Eventually any argument as to whether it was better to leave or remain is not only hypothetical but impossible to answer. Scotland once again has the initiative regarding its destiny and some change in Northern Ireland’s constitutional relationship with England and the ROI is probably unavoidable.

The almost unbelievable cruel irony of this tweet by Cox. The metaphorical knifing of Corbyn by Jo Cox in early May obviously refers to a Guardian article she co-wrote after the May elections. She was highly critical of him which considering the support that Corbyn has from the constituencies was a brave/foolhardy (take your pick) thing to do. But it’s easier to understand when you hear of the connections Cox had within “Old” or rather old New Labour – the Browns and the Kinnocks, neither of whom have any love for Corbyn or his beliefs. And she shared an office with the son of Kinnock, who had also written an earlier article, less critical but along the same lines. I have no doubt that her campaigning, youthful and perhaps naive zeal (and like all politicians a Narcissistic compulsion to be noticed) led to her being used by those with more political nous, because I can’t think of another reason why a new MP would commit political suicide in this way. She was a patsy for the old guard, but no doubt would have been looked after if any coup against Corbyn was successful.

On Jo Cox – my remarks did not relate to any of the infighting that may go on in the Labour Party or any part Jo Cox may have played in that. I was focussed on her suspicious death in the context of the EU Referendum and the possibility of attempted manipulation of an hysterical public reaction.
Frankly I could not raise much enthusiasm for any of the assorted “gangs” that inhabit the twilight world of internal party wranglings especially when much of it is done over pink wines, champagne and posh nibbles in places like Islington. By all means expose their nasty goings on if you have access to the detail, but that does nothing to undo the depth of scheming undertaken by elements of the Remain clique, including backers off-shore. Somewhere in that darkest place a decision was taken to find a sick man, heavily delusional showing the “right” characteristics, who could be primed to make a kill that could tip the balance. They got it wrong and it can’t be undone. She may or may not have been a patsy for some “old guard” clique, but that is not what got her killed.

Dafis – your theory of who might have pushed Cox’s killer’s buttons may well be right but alas when these dark arts are at play it’s so difficult to get to the truth. Your post had me thinking of people like Hilda Murrell, Dr David Kelly, Daniel Morgan and the MI5 worker who mysteriously locked himself in a suitcase – sorry but can’t recall his name. There must be dozens if not more mysterious deaths where the state or “others” has some involvement and we never get to the bottom of it. I even have doubts about the Litvinenko explanation pushed onto us by the Establishment, because if it’s true those Russian agents must be thick to believe there’d be no trail back to them

Now you mention it . . . Somebody told me the ‘truth’ once (more than once, actually) about the killing of Hilda Murrell. My informant named the killer and proved his inside knowledge by telling me that the killer’s ‘trademark’ was shitting on the bed. But then, if I believed everybody who tells me stories . . .

CARMARTHENSHIRE council leader Emlyn Dole has said the Leave campaigners “must keep their word” after the UK voted to exit the European Union.
Just like he did with promises of democracy and change in Carmarthenshire.

And quip of the year. Stephen Kinnock unexpectedly just pulled out of Swansea Half Marathon on Sunday – by my reckoning to sharpen the proverbial knife intended for Jeremy Corbyn on Monday. So some guy asks him on Twitter “Is that because snakes don’t run?”

It’s been an absolutely momentous few hours. I’m still reeling with all the political and constitutional implications.

Talk about the law of unintended consequences…….:

Who would have thought that it would be Eton toff David Cameron that would allow ordinary people in these islands a vote where their voices actually counted for once and an unparalleled opportunity to express their opinions about the direction our societ has taken over the past generation?

Who would have thought that Nicola Sturgeon would announce a new Scottish independence referendum just a couple of hours after Cameron’s resignation speech?

Who would have thought that Labour voters would treat their MPS implorations to stay with such complete disdain?

Who would have thought that young people would chose the safe, establishment option, with older people voting for hope and change?

Who would have thought that Northern Ireland’s best hope of staying in the EU would be to unite with the Republic of Ireland?

Who would have thought that this referendum would turn into a de facto referendum on Independence for England?

As a Welsh nationalist, I was hoping for a leave vote because of genuine concerns about the lack of democracy within the EU and its obsession with obliterating national identities in Europe in the name of ” closer integration”. But I also wanted to see a long over-due complete shake-up of the existing political system in the UK, in the hope that this could lead to a popular movement in Wales for independence, which could circumvent the impotent political class in Cardiff Bay.

I think we have seen this happening over the past 24 hours. Maybe indeed it is the revolution that never happened in the UK in 1848, as was the case on the European mainland. The genie is now well and truly out of the bottle thanks mainly to the people of England, who as Jac said, withstood a tsunami of economic and financial warnings by the great and the good to assert their wish for independence.

It’s also interesting that culture trumped economics for once, with nationhood and identity proving key features of the Leave vote. I think that the national movement for Wales can make use of both the democracy argument and the culture argument in our own push for independence, safe in the knowledge that we can always refer back to the use of these arguments in the European Referendum of 2016 to counter any Greater England opposition.

I doubt it. The EU has done it before and made many realise the true nature of the beast. Junker and his gang have given no indication that they want a second referendum; in fact, they seem to be helping us on with our coat and pushing us towards the exit.

However, the attraction of Westminster over-ruling Thursday’s vote, or calling another referendum, is that it would thwart another Scottish Indyref, with the beauty of the plan being that the SNP couldn’t really object to staying in the EU.

This might attract a few anti-EU Tory MPs. They’ll have to decide whether they love the UK more than they hate the EU. But many Tory supporters are resigned to losing Scotland and would regard it as a price worth paying to ‘get Europe off our backs’, so to invalidate Thursday’s vote would drive such people into the arms of UKIP.

But for the Labour Party to support either option would also be fraught with danger because many Labour supporters voted for Brexit. But given that Labour is now controlled by ideologues and agitators, out of touch with the old Labour heartlands, Labour could take another step along the road to self-destruction. That said, Labour MPs may not be too bright but they do have a highly developed sense of what’s in their own best interests.

This is my last post for a little while – off to Dyfnant (Devon) for a week or so in the morning. If you need me for anything technical I can be contacted on my mobile Jac.

I wonder if they’ll find that reptilian chancellor before I return – he seems to have disappeared into thin air. Don’t think he’s been nabbed by the ‘dark suits’ do you? Maybe we’ll find him hanging from a ridge somewhere – in Roberto Calvi style!

Hi. Leanne has now floated the idea of a coalition with Labour in an attempt to “save” Wales. Maybe she should have a look at Lord Ashcroft’s latest polls, one of which (Table 5, Question 4) breaks down Leave/Remain voters by how they voted in GE2015.

Would like to know who Leanne talked to at that wimmin’s event, but she’s come out today with a direct reference to the I word ! – as in Independence. Now I may be jumping the gun but she used the word, so long a taboo, lower division subject in the party’s vocabulary, preferably only mentioned in ‘ushed tones behind a sound proof screen.
Now seems that independence will be the only means of getting back into the beloved EU eventually, but in the meantime we could operate in a community of equals with the other nations on these islands. Jeez, you’d think that was new the way it got rolled out. The only bit missing was any reference to the 30+ years wasted farting around with second hand pseudo socialist ideals and policies that have contributed to our relegation to beggar status in a state of high dependency.
So here we are going to march in demanding immediate equal status when we can’t afford a packet of biscuits at the high table. They will laugh their cocks off. Better to have quietly adopted some creative reconstruction themes, got them implemented successfully and then start sounding off about standing alone as an equal. Which leads me to conclude that dear Leanne never spoke to anyone about this subject. Instead she saw Ms Sturgeon flex some muscle on the news and thought ” ooh, I better have some of that, it’s really impressive luv ” Even Carwyn will be able to make capital out of this and he doesn’t spot open goals too often.

I’m always a bit of a soft touch, despite the sage opinions give here about Plaid being the corpse in the chair, I was all for giving them a chance to see what they could do but the last couple of days has been an eye opener for me. I don’t believe that, a feminist conference? Time they did die off either that or …. off! We really need a new harder line party, now more than ever, so where’s it coming from?

Aside: Twitter has been entertaining the last couple of days, I’ve never heard so much bleating in my life, it’s no wonder we’re in the state we’re in here in Cymru, they get given shite advice from a parties that ran an even shiter remain campaign and will spend the next week crying about it, embarrassing it is. The only real positive comment I have read came from Rhun ap Iorwerth who said OK they’d lost now it’s time to move on and move forward

It would seem that way, I don’t think Leanne Wood should stay as party leader, Neil Mcevoy would be a better bet in my opinion, I think he would have the stomach for a good fight if he could get the backing of the rest of them. I might well be wrong there, I’m not the worlds most politically minded person

lots of chatter about the older age groups swinging the Brexit vote, yet the only foundations for this insight are polls, the very things that created that frenzy of agitation prior to the vote. Sure they may have stopped a cross section of passers by on a few streets and then drew some inference from their responses ( if people respond honestly ! ) but to pan that out across the 33million + who voted ( + the millions that didn’t) exemplifies the daft reliance on statistics. Or was every vote bar coded and logged on an In /Out scoresheet thus enabling a geek to analyse accurately the demographics of the vote ?. I think not ! It’s just another prize example of the bollocks spewed out by the political/media axis, a bunch of dilettantes with nothing better to do but getting paid damn well for doing it !

I love it! When people wonder if there could be an independent Wales I think it’s worth bearing in mind a country like Iceland that gets by on about one tenth of our population. A republic, took a hell of a knock following the global financial collapse, has its own language and you can’t get your tongue around most of the words, tourism a big player, can’t think of anything it exports, rains a hell of a lot, roads are crap, loses a lot of its finest due to lack of indigenous opportunity, perhaps a bit chippy due to their history, and bloody good and stubborn footballers against the odds. Sounds familiar. Here’s to them both going a lot further.

It seems that Leanne Wood has responded to last Thursday’s vote by calling for the process of Independence for Wales to be speeded up, which all sounds well and good on paper.

However, as someone who admires Leanne and vote for her in the Plaid leadership election, I’m not sure whether she is now the one to lead that campaign, being so heavily associated with the Remain argument which was rejected not only by the people of Wales in the referendum, but also by a significant number of Plaid supporters as shown by Lord Ashcroft’s polling sample of Plaid members.

I believe Plaid Cymru now need to be led by someone who is untainted by that result, and who can respond authoritatively and decisively to the huge opportunity that the Leave vote has now opened up. We need someone who can address all the Welsh voters who voted Leave on Thursday without facing the immediate rebuttal that he/she was on the wrong side of the referendum argument and therefore lacks credibility in their eyes.

We need someone who can say to these voters- “Look, I understand your concerns about the lack of democracy within the European Union and the problems that unlimited migration has caused working people in Wales. Let me outline an alternative, empowering and exciting vision for a new Wales which could appeal to you.”. The obvious candidate to fulfill this mission in my eyes is Adam Price who as leader could have an All-Wales appeal, and make independence both credible and achievable in the minds of the public.

But, beyond that, we also need to build a popular movement for Independence for Wales quite independent of the political structure which can educate and agitate and win hearts and minds in all our communities.

There is an Independence rally to be staged at Caernarfon this Saturday, and hopefully this can be the start of a real grass-roots initiative to make the case for Welsh Independence…..

You can argue that Leanne Wood is ‘tainted’, but the same could be said of Plaid Cymru as a whole. On Sunday Leanne Wood and Jill Evans were at a Feminist event in Cardiff. The fundamental realignment needed is for Plaid to have less to do with English fringe groups and take more interest in the Welsh people and their concerns, however unpalatable that may be to too many in the party hierarchy.

My initial reaction at about 8.30 last night was to regard Leanne’s declaration cynically as an outburst of “me too ” sentiment. However I come round to the view that whatever brings her round to such a position has got to be good, but we have to make sure that she doesn’t hop onto the next copycat stance when that arises.

Nicola Sturgeon, and the Alex before her, had been steadily building up a set of positions where there are clear ways forward depending on outcomes at each stage. This became evident at 2014 referendum, followed by 2015 GE, and on to 2016 ScotParliament and EU campaigns. Not perfect but bloody good mapping and forward planning.
Leanne, along with most of the other parties in EnglandandWales appear to stagger from one milestone to the next with no evident strategic and tactical underpinnings. Brexit may be a “good thing” but it is evident that the coalition of Anglo Brit leaders haven’t really got plans prepared for the next stages of the process. Now the Remainers didn’t really need a detailed plan in the event of their victory other than some form of attempt at reconciliation and “moving on “. However they too have blown it, because they had no plan for defeat. Had they prepared such a plan they would now be in a position to influence in detail the events going forward instead of spewing a torrent of recrimination and pointless regret.

So we shall see. Has Leanne found her core nationalist, or will she be easily seduced over to another pseudo socialist “hot topic” soon ?

The “me too” thought was my reaction, first it was “Oh we’ll join side with Labour” then it was “Oh shit I should have discussed it with the party first”, then it was “yes save face, lets push independence. Sounds like complete confusion and no clear idea what to do next, it seems there had been no real thought as what a possible strategy would be if the Brexit vote went through, I don’t think they even thought it might happen in their wildest nightmares, well shit happens as they say :-). The woman should stand down along with CJ “I didn’t get where I am today” the first minister

To be fair to all parties involved, to me it would seem very hard to come up with a realistic exit plan as it is a thing that needs discussing with the other suits in Euroland, the best you could have is a wish list

“failing to plan is planning for failure” said some wise guy, but on this occasion it applies to so many of the participants who should at least have some kind of map for moving forward. Sure thing, once they engage with the real world and the “enemy” all plans get disrupted and that’s where the smart people show a bit of flair for quick, ad hoc thinking but it’s all done off a base of planning and deliberation. Our lot seem to think that a weekend swanning around with like-minded feather brains is all it takes, and act all surprised when the wheels come off !