skeeter wrote:My story is as follows: On Sunday night, December 9th my buddy and myself were walking upstream after dusk up that side of the stream through the water. We knew full well about his property and dogs so we stayed about shin deep in the stream to play it safe. We were not looking around and had our headlamps pointed down into the water to see what we were stepping on. Next thing we know his doberman is within five feet of us and is in full meltdown. The thing completely snuck up on us and scared us sh*tless.... What made it worse is we had our red lights on to cut down glare on the water and looking at the beast all I could see was the red of its eyes. My buddy started yelling and swinging his rod which kept the dog at a distance.

We fled through the water across the stream and up that high bank over the guard rail and got the heck out of there. All the while the guy is standing on his porch not saying a word. We were to shook up to say something at the time to the guy. This guy has no respect for anyone's safety or well being. He is likely to get someone killed or serious injured. The signs don't mean anything. I have a gift certificate to Bass Pro and I think that some pepper spray is on the list before I venture near this area again.

This post is just unreal. So you break the law and trespass on the guys property. To add to that now you are gonna pepper spray his dog who is doing absolutely nothing wrong. It's people like you who gets land posted and ruin it for the rest of us. Your whole mentality is absolutely horrible. Please do the fishing community a favor and take up golf.

With all due respect, fishing on posted property or even just cutting through his property at night time with a headlamp is just a bad idea in my opinion. It is his property and maybe he just lets his dogs out to use the bathroom or whatnot and you just happened to startle his dogs and that is why they were so aggressive towards you. I would strongly advise against buying mace and spraying this guys dogs because it will only make access even more difficult and I don't think we should treat dogs like that, period. Try keeping a bag of dog biscuits or something next time, anything but mace dude.

Keep this in mind; some folks I know post their property BECAUSE their dogs will attack or act aggressively. I know someone who posts their property simply because their dog goes crazy barking when it sees people... they have children that are between the ages of 2 months old and 3 years old who nap frequently during the day and need to sleep in the evening by at least 7 PM and don't need to be disturbed by people on their property.

You ever try to watch TV while your dog is going ape nuts and somebody just dilly dallies in your back yard? It would be enough to make me come out and tell the person to scram, especially if my land was posted.

The Holiday Gift Basket campaign (in Erie) was put out there for JUST such a situation. Not sure if the above mentioned land owner is a basket-recipient, but it's some pretty good PR for ff'ers to give a little sumn-sumn to our streamside neighbors.

Posted on: 2012/12/27 13:34

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"The river is my saviour and my sin..." - the tallest man in the world

If, as stated, he OWNS the land on both sides of the stream AND the streambed itself, then you have NO right to be on it or in it. only an idiot would trespass and then complain about being scared by the owners dog. I mean, are you listening to yourself? It's HIS property, he DOESN'T have to let anyone have access.AND, if you are indeed on HIS property and spray his dogs, don't be surprised if he sprays back with something a little more potent. of course, you will then come back here and whine about having buckshot in your ass and how your waders now leak.

I don't trespass onto others property. When I see signs like this, I will usually write the land owners information into my journal and look for permission either that day, or a later date. I do think the owner of this land could handle trespassers with a little more class, but everyone has their own methods of dealing with things. I have permission to fish in several places a lot of people can't get to. The way I got that permission is listed above. When I made contact, I made sure I kept a respectful tone, and assured them their land would be the same when I left, if not better, then it was when I got there. This man could be one of the nicest people in the world, yet he's being judged because he doesn't want people on his property. Can I come sit on your front porch? Without you ever saying a word to me?

Listen, I am not trying to get in a pissing match with everyone about stream access and private property..... Its not like that at all. I should have never made the mace comment - I was just harping on the idea of "what if". I own a dog and I am not trying to hurt an animal unless its trying to hurt me.

I am fully aware of riparian rights and waterway law, to me this goes beyond property ownership and fishing access. This is more of a public safety issue. I respected his property I was not trespassing he allows people to fish his property; however, he is not respecting others safety while they're fishing there. If he has a problem with people on his property why allow the access? What’s the point of allowing people access to your property when people can potentially sue you for getting attacked by your dog? Plenty of people don’t know about his dogs. My point is the signs aren't enough. It's a serious enough situation that the PFBC should work the property owner to fence (electric/real) his dogs to the top of bank, where the signs are. There's enough money floating around in that fund to do something before somebody gets hurt.

Oh, to clarify I was not on his property (I don't think) we were downstream of the bend in the stream just below his neighbors house to the south - unless he owns that property to.... If so there's no signs there...

Posted on: 2012/12/27 14:27

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Perhaps fishing is, for me, only an excuse to be near rivers.

I agree with you in a sense. I do believe it is illegal for him to allow access without making a reasonable attempt to ensure safe passage. No pissing match is needed here, and I do think every comment made in here so far was meant to express opinion, and not to harass you. When I get in situations like this, I try to look at it from both sides. I do have an idea on how I would handle this specific issue though. I would approach the land owner directly, or by telephone is he has a listed number. Remember to take your hat off if direct approach is your choice. Keep a clean, professional tone while talking to him, and try to work something out. He may tell you to get bent, but even if that were to happen, you haven't lost anything! I'm just taking a guess here, but I think there is more to this story. Not on your end, the land owners. He has more than likely had some unruly guest on his land at one time or another, and this is probably his reason for doing what he is doing.

Thanks, but like many people who fish in Erie I am not a local. That is not to be misinterpreted, though I treat all waters, public/private, with respect and dignity. I have many private fishing accesses where I am from and developed these relationships through the same processes you are referring to. This, IMO, is a different situation, it appears that the property has a PFBC Public Access Easement according to their website. If this is the case, there is most likely a clause in their agreement for safe passage to the stream/OHWM. Either way, what it boils down to is that I posted my own experience with this piece of property and I was just trying to keep those who venture by it aware.

Posted on: 2012/12/27 15:22

Edited by skeeter on 2012/12/27 15:39:18

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Perhaps fishing is, for me, only an excuse to be near rivers.

The public access easement, indicates this gentlemen does not own the land under the water flows through. At least to me it does. Be careful not to get yourself hurt over a small portion of water. There are plenty of fish in the sea/stream/river/pond.

If the guy isn't going to control his dogs, he should just post his entire property. I have never been to this section of Elk Creek, but it seems that people should have the right to believe that they are going to be safe from any possible harm if they are actually abiding by the signs placed on the property. Based on some of the stories mentioned on this thread, that doesn't seem to be the case. If those dogs were to bight people, the property owner could possibly be liable.

From what I have been told, the Guy does not own the property, he rents it. If that changes anything I'm not sure. I disagree that the side of the stream is posted properly. The first 2 signs(private property, beware of doug) are not visible until your well past the point of crossing back over the stream. The other 2 signs are 30 yards down stream and not visible when coming back up from down stream. As well, the signs are posted on trees on top of the bank, well above the normal high water mark. To me the signs say stay outta my yard, not off the area 25 feet below/in front of my signs. If this was posted properly it would look like the stretch on walnut. That is plainly posted and any one can understand which side of the stream to walk. On top of that, the road side of the stream is not easily traversed with ice, high water, or all the fisherman who fish the big hole that is always full of fish. I think this guy gets his jollys by freaking out fisherman. I have seen him, on more than one occasion, wait until people walking down stream are well past the mouth of the hole, then let the dogs out. I have heard him yell " go get 'em" ! And I've also heard his wife, or mother, yell at him to get the dogs back in the house and knock it off. Either way, I will walk the road side of the stream from now on. I hate headaches of any kind, and especially a hassle while fishing! But this has been the best stretch of fishing for me in the 5 years I've been driving 2 hours to fish. I'm sure there are other