@rtdfan I’m not sure what you see as being a problem here. Looking at the responses to your posts, I see debate and discussion, and civil disagreement, not hostility. You say:

I didn’t start this thread to get people swapping ideas on morals

but you raised the issue of whether the current series is heavy-handed in its treatment of moral issues, amongst other points, and people have responded to that, with two main areas of discussion – whether there is genuinely more ‘moralising’ in the current series, and whether the way in which it is currently treating moral issues is or is not heavy-handed. That’s what happens here if you make a point – some will agree with you, others won’t, and we do swap ideas on morals and all sorts of things. That’s kind of what we are about!

You also say that you think Whittaker could be a great Doctor but

let’s not start a huge debate as to whether she is or not

Again, we’re a forum, and huge debates are what we do, and thoroughly enjoy doing, on that question as on so many others. For the most part we do this with mutual respect, though it can get lively, and people may express themselves forthrightly – that’s fine (in my view) as long as we’re not slagging each other off.

The silly posts which say that ‘I don’t like this series/the new showrunner/the new Doctor/the companions/the music and that therefore all concerned should be fired and the series cancelled’ will be called out as silly. And posts which are offensive – sexist, racist, homophobic etc – most certainly will be called out. That’s about respect.

If what you post is thoughtful and based on love for and knowledge of Who, your comments will meet with both endorsement and civil disagreement, and may well trigger all kinds of debate. That seems like a good thing to me!

The thing is, you can even do a search and find people saying similar things to yours. I used “heavy-handed” myself recently. Then a bunch of people disagreed with me. 🙂

So, no, you won’t find an echo chamber here, you’ll find multiple points of view. To me, that’s all to the good. I can say why I think something about the new series or an old episode, and the others can say why they agree or not. And with luck we all learn something.

So inbetween slurping coffee running or maybe ruining multiple teams on two sites getting ever so slightly frazzled over seperate site diaries for each contract, some teams doing upto three separate operations on the same site on the same day (this is not a woe is me or look how important I am thing) ….. I might think if I were to concentrate that a possible reason for less posting is…….

Gets back on a 19 hand white stallion baby

The lack of a series arc, reduces bonkerising and the feedback that generates.

This may or may not could possibly be probably a criticism

Who needs to connect with all of its audience as well as connect to new. This season series cereal? has done the new bit fantastically well. Jodie Whitaker has absolutely nailed the role, the Team Tardis has been PDG (pretty darn good which is a UK’ism for awesome) . Where it has lacked is in the monster department where the most believable monsters where the good old humans in Rosa and Demons of the Punjab.

The little rocky balls in lanterns still really didn’t impact enough to make Tim Shaw seem more than a Ptroll

@missy Ooh now, no-one upset Thane. And neither did he set out to be harsh etc.

You like morals don’t you? If you’re absolutely perfect then I guess you wouldn’t. As I explained upthread, at length, Tennant’s eps were Lessons In Morals. So were Capaldi’s -which, I believe, you would’ve watched at least once?

I think the issue raised was that the series you hadn’t watched was a lecture in morals. He had just finished explaining this to a poster and so responded by saying you like morals, no? Not harsh. It’s a fair question. And, as you often said, you loved Capaldi’s Doctor -a time with the double Zygon episode, a gay companion etc… The reference to watching them was that you hadn’t seen any but for Thane to properly comment he’d need to watch them twice but felt you had seen Capaldi’s more than once so he was being ironic.

I have a leedle feeling you were reading RTDfan’s comment and thought it applied to Thane when it was simply crossed wires. I’ve had to learn how to “spot the trolls” -something I thought I knew causing me some angst! So if you absolutely feel that he over-stepped a line, I shall be happy to slap him over d’head 😀

Well that’s a relief. Thane is usually so kind and, in some cases, patient.

To be fair I am a little embarrassed. Time, as the doctor will tell you, is the essence and I can’t always join you all (or is it all of you?) regularly. also, I can’t read long posts, I haven’t the time, so I tend to skim, which is what I did with thane’s. You could be right about the RTD fan, I shall have to read again – and thane’s.

Mostly I was referring to people I didn’t know, who approached me saying that they felt they were being preached at – a kind of “are you sitting comfortably children” thing. Obviously I cannot comment not having seen this series.

No, don’t smack him over the head Puro, I’ll do it if we ever meet. Only teasing. I’m so glad everything has been cleared up.

Merry Christmas to all my friends in Whoville! I hope you all get the day you want, be it peaceful or boisterous and that you have friends or family to spend it with. My wish is for a better world where if we can’t be nice we must still be kind and where we are never cruel and never cowardly.

Merry Christmas/happy solstice/midwinter/midsummer all. And we are being reminded right now that it is indeed midsummer, with 35c today and 40c forecast for tomorrow. Read an interesting article in the Guardian the other day which explained the 12 days. A huge tree would be cut down and dragged in and it took about twelve days to burn, during which everyone kept warm and drank the beer or mead and cider which was brewed to perfection. I think we will be spending the twelve days huddled by an air con, watching the garden shrivel and wishing for the return of the dark and rain while drinking our home brew beer and cider, of which we have a healthy supply.

Merry Christmas everyone. Currently drinking tea with brandy, watching Mika on youtube, dogs are wearing their Christmas jumpers, beans on toast later for dinner. Christmas traditions are whatever you make them.

Indeed we are. But I had a moment….wherein the roast pork, left in fridge for too long, wasn’t going to crackle. To the god crattklexporokox I prayed (also called the Bosch oven handbook) and soon ……(within 10 mins) we had pork crackling with potatoes dauphin – – @mudlark when returning would know the origin of said spuds – – and buttered peas. Neither lobster tail nor prawn for us Aussies this year!

@janetteb yes, I’ve seen the seen temp down there. Can you get to beach?? Fortunately it’s a tad less putrid here. Lots of ice helps and home-made lemonade and fruit! White nectarines and peaches. Whoa. I think we polished off 12 in 24 hours.

@janetteb and @thane16 Hope you both had a good day. I wish I could send you some cold because you are way too hot there and we have plenty to spare. Your feasts sound yummy and I would love a juicey summer nectarine or peach.Mmmmmm.

@kevinwho I just watched that one and it makes me happy/sad then hopeful and excited.Lots of feels. I had a lovely day with my 2 sons and my granddaughter and all their furry friends. Now I am unwinding with a nice cuppa and my pals here in Who Town. Also my youngest son gave me a collection of all Matt Smiths episodes and specials on 10 dvds (he is my favourite son this year).

@winston thank you yes, the stone fruits are the best we’ve had in10 years. Mangos are spectacular. Your favourite son did a very good deed, indeed. I’m watching Smithy right now. Everyone else, in the middle of Boxing Day, is having a long nap but as I didn’t wake til 11, I’m not in the least bit sleepy.

Too much cold aint all that good! I’m not sure what I was watching -could’ve been the song posted above or the one on youtube -the Silence song (?) but it led me to Netflix & I’m watching the Vampires of Venice: I saw it only the once, away back, and heard that it was considered pretty silly but some of it is hilarious!

I’ve almost fin-fished (gag, right there) the Vampires of Venice and despite how it was slagged off (a bit) I noticed Smithy being very, very ‘old’ school: “We don’t discuss this Amy. I tell you what to do and you do it.” Rory, in a weak voice says, “thank you” whilst Amy tosses her hair and stomps off.

Just re-reading the Sofa posts and the posts from the last two episodes from our current series, and boy, have we come along way in those few years.

@thane16 It is still Christmas here for 27 minutes and the house is very quiet for now. Boxing Day brings another dinner and more family visits and then both granddaughters come and stay for a few days before New Years so we are still a little busy. I am kidding about the favourite son thing of course, or am I? I am.

When it is too cold we huddle round the fireplace in housecoats and slippers and hibernate.

I like Vampires in Venice , it is a funny episode and I enjoyed Rory in it. I think I will watch it as soon as I get a chance to sit down again as it has been awhile.

15 minutes now and its all over till next year.See what a slow typist I am.

@thane16 It is an ever changing and evolving show that grows up as it grows old and it always challenges me in some way. Some episodes age better than others but I still love most of them and I find something new to like every time I watch an episode. It just gets better and better.

Vampires in Venice, the Tardis and Amy Pond and her boys, what more do you need?

@winston – they love their jumpers. Unfortunately, day turned out less than perfect since one doggie (who is suffering from heart and kidney failure) decided she needed a tummy bug to round things off. I mean, she’s up on the window seat as we talk shouting at passers by so we’re not panicking, but let’s just say she’s given me lots of Christmas presents this year…

In my opinion Chibnall making it a New Years Day episode is just one more piece of proof the he is trying to fundamentally change how The Doctor is perceived. From Jodie Whittakers portrayal of The Doctor and the writing this season and now a new year’s episode instead of Christmas episode he has changed the series beyond salvation. I don’t believe I will watch next season in protest. I definitely am not looking forward to it or sitting on the edge of my seat in anticipation of it. I understand the need for CC to “make it his own” but there is a point of going to far. I am probably in the minority with these thoughts buy it is what it is. What ever it would cost to coax SM back to the table would be well worth it. Beg, borrow, steal BBC and get him back!
Up

@bluffme – If you look around on this forum you’ll find people both for and against the latest series. Yes, most of them have been for.

In my opinion Chibnall making it a New Years Day episode is just one more piece of proof the he is trying to fundamentally change how The Doctor is perceived.

For those of us with reservations about the changes, we have to realize that Chibnall fundamentally changed the declining viewing numbers. Ratings are back to where they were in the heydays of Tennant and Smith.

Making sure the show will never be cancelled again is hard to object to. Bringing in a new generation of viewers, likewise.

I don’t see how not having a Christmas episode is ‘fundamentally changing’ how The Doctor is perceived.

I’d say replacing William Hartnell with Patrick Troughton was a ‘fundamental change’. Or how about having The Doctor earth-bound and unable to operate the TARDIS. Then there’s the ‘fundamental change’ from a boyish, cricket loving Doctor to an arrogant, clown costume wearing Doctor.

How many times has the theme music been rearranged or the TARDIS interior/Daleks/Cybermen etc being re-designed?

In fact, introducing a Christmas episode in 2005 was itself a ‘fundamental change’.

In short, Doctor Who has been ‘fundamentally changing’ since it was first broadcast and I dare say it will continue to do so for as long as it continues being made.

I’m outraged. Outraged, I tell you (not really). Colin Baker rocks, at least in the handful of Big Finish stories that I’ve heard he does 🙂

I’d stopped watching DW shortly after Liz Sladen left – not because of that, I’d just reached the stage in life where I had more important things to do (train-spotting 😆 ), so I didn’t see any of the 5th to 8th Doctor episodes when originally broadcast but was vaguely aware of how universally loathed he was.

A few years ago, the Horror Channel (I think) started showing 3 stories from each of the first 7 Doctors and knowing the reputation CB had, I approached his stories (Vengeance on Varos, Attack of the Cybermen and Mark of the Rani) which caution. While the episodes themselves were bad, I quite enjoyed his take on The Doctor. Seriously 🙂

one more piece of proof the he is trying to fundamentally change how The Doctor is perceived. From Jodie Whittakers portrayal of The Doctor and the writing this season and now a new year’s episode instead of Christmas episode he has changed the series beyond salvation. I don’t believe I will watch next season in protest. I definitely am not looking forward to it…

It’s Whittaker, not Whittaker 🙂

The reason the show’s changing is that Doctor Who has been chartered to do this as part of its mission statement about how each show furthered the reason for the BBC to exist. In EVERY iteration of the Doctor and companions the show changed but it was still relatable, as Moriarty would say.

I have to grin if one week from xmas special to NY special marks ‘fundamental changes.’ This is a show ABOUT time therefore Chibnall is actually CLOSER to the mark when changing the day on which it airs.

You seem like a fun person so “welcome to the Forum.” It’s a great place for discussions about real issues. You’ve mentioned “writing” but what about the writing is causing dislike? To the extent that you won’t watch in protest? LOL 😀

It’s kinda like a hunger strike against Communism except this is about a show that you may not like because of a “writing” problem you’ve not described or because the companions are black and the Doctor’s a woman…..

When I was five my mother heard others making Doctor’s appointments: Can we see the lady Doctor please?” She explained this to me and I didn’t understand why a female doctor, dentist, painter or anyone else female was a bad thing! And that was 12 years ago! But as others upthread have said much better than I – @fatmaninabox – – waving to you and glad your device is powering up! and @blenkinsopthebrave – hope that celler of yours is being emptied! – – the whole show is based on complete change. I remember when people wanted the actor from Luther to replace Tennant but now, if they suggested a man from a different cultural group (never mind gender) bowels-leak would be ape-poo.

Also, I had an opportunity to listen to Tennant, the Bakers and Paul McGann and they ALL say the show has changed and that is its “absolute strength.”

Change = absolute strength in Doctor Who. Said by older Doctors, younger Doctors and…….the lady composer 😈 who made what is probably the most unusual theme in television shows since the ’60s!

@bluffme – The others have shown how Doctor Who is all about change, and we have to realize that. What makes this forum great, though, is that we don’t expect anyone to welcome any change they think is for the worse.

But what we’re all here for is to talk about the show, not rant about it. So, please, go ahead and explain where you think the writing has worsened. Just do so objectively, please, because emotion detracts from rational discussion.

@bluesqueakpip brilliant idea. For me, some distance from the show can cause me to realise that the reasons could be because of other things affecting programming

@kevinwho I just did this looong philosophy thing on logic, rationality and god: can you use rational thinking to prove the existence of God.

Sometimes we need to be emotional in the way we view/watch our shows. They become ‘ours’ to the extent we say “it’s MY favourite show.” Or here, Doc10 or Doc 2 was “my” Doctor? But if people are frustrated by something -like the characters, or the amount of people in Tardis or the accent they can sometimes write: “these are lazy writers” or “I dislike the Doctor, now so get better showrunners” . Being objective is great but it’s hard and some people fall into using comments that aren’t constructive like “Lazy writing” or “I won’t watch the show in protest” when there’s no way anyone is going to a) care whether that person watches it or not or b) can’t prove anyone is or isn’t watching it.

Also the very same people who hated Moffat (& there were a few) would’ve said in their echo-spaces, “Ban the MoffBoff” and bring on “better writers. Bring back RTD.”

Also, way back in 2009 or 2005 lots of people wouldn’t have had a hag’s ear’s idea of what a “writer” was. Or possibly wouldn’t have named any.

Somewhere here a poster said “I wonder what JJ Abrams could have made of Doctor Who” etc. Abrams did Fringe, I think: after 24 episodes Mum and I were bored to our wisdom teeth and it was @pedant who said “stop watching it and get back into House” and that was a decision I don’t regret!

Lindelöf and Abrams did Lost and the former wrote Leftovers, possibly as good as House and other shows I’ve enjoyed in the years I’ve grown a brain but I honestly can’t imagine Abrams doing Who: mind you, what’s the worry in not deciding that? After all, I did that with Chibnall because of a season of Broadchurch. And I regret writing anything about that because Who has been great this year. Also, I’m no expert, at all, on writers so when people join a site to write crap like “sack the writers. Replace the showrunner” and yet never say explicitly why it’s such a problem I’m keen for them to piss off! We’re taught daily to look at implicit and explicit commentary, intentional objectivity or subjectivity.

@thane16 – I just want people to realize that as long as they can discuss things without things like, yes, “sack the writers,” they’re welcome. Greatness is subjective, but we can still strive for objectivity. We have to if we don’t want to descend into rants and diatribes.

@kevinwho Well said. Firstly people need to recognise that personal opinion does not equal objective truth. Personal taste influences how we react to things more strongly than our objective judgement. I know that at times I have overlooked many flaws in script etc because I love a particular episode. Robots of Sherwood would be a good example of that. I will never claim that it is a good episode but that the humour and warmth makes up for me, for other script flaws. Others, including members of my own family, find those flaws overwhelm any positives. Likewise I loved Fringe. Don’t like many U.S. tv series. I was never enthusiastic about Star Trek but love B.5 though that certainly had its flaws. I would not say it was the better series, it just appealed to me because it had a story arc, politics and great characters.

That brings me back to one of the reasons I find this most recent series does not thrill me as much as Moffat’s writing but it does have character development which is does compensate somewhat. I still have a couple of episodes to watch but I would say on the basis of what I have seen that the script writing overall has been consistently good. In fact “consistently good” are the words I would use to sum up the series. Almost every episode stands up to a re-watch. There are no outstanding moments but no “clunkers” either. I am certain that my affection for this series will grow on repeat. So overall I am not at all unhappy with the script writing. I loved the history episodes though I hope that in future series the Doctor will on occasion encounter some old “frenemies”. (Oh dear that is a word..) though I am glad that there is less reliance on the old, “big bads” which were getting overused. Without the occasional,(and I stress occasional) appearance of a Dalek or Cyberman it feels as though the Doctor has jumped into an alternate universe.

(and now we have a brand new surround sound speaker system that new theme music is going to sound even better than it did on our tinny old speakers which had no mid tones at all, almost no bass and not much of anything else.)

@kevinwho Sometimes I try really hard to watch an episode objectively so I can discuss it with all of you more intelligently and less emotionally but it never happens. I hear the music,read the credits, see the Doctor and I am lost in the story. I do dislike some of the adventures the Doctor has but I never dislike a new Doctor . I just think “oh, that’s the kind of Doctor this one is” and accept them and carry on watching. That makes me the opposite of the haters and I suspect just about as valuable when it comes to being objective but I keep on trying. I just like the show way too much.

@janetteb Whenever there is a new Doctor I find it takes a second or third viewing of the whole first series before I get completely comfortable with them. That was the case with Tennant and Capaldi and I love them both now and watch them over and over. I am sure it will be the same with this new Doctor. and I will have plenty of time to get acquainted with her waiting for the next series.

I hope you are managing to beat the heat a bit. Wow that is proper warm over there.

@winston We are currently sitting under the air con with the animals flopped on the floor. The cat is feeling it more than the husky and I fear for the garden but that is the case every summer. I have learnt that only roses, rosemary and bougainvillea are likely to get through our summers.

@kevinwho Indeed the more attached to something we are the more likely we are to be disappointed. On Boxing Day we always go to the cinema and this year we chose to see Mortal Engines because R.3 loves to the book. The screening was cancelled and it turned out he did not want to see it because he is so attached to the book he feared that the film would not match expectations. He preferred to watch a film that he has no emotional investment in so we watched the Fantastic Beasts film and R.!s girlfriend got really annoyed because she has emotional investment in the Harry Potter books and it contradicted the lore in several aspects which to us appeared minor. Dr Who is a series which evokes strong emotional investment and hence is is more prone to disappoint or upset its fans than lesser things.

@janetteb@winston – I watch episodes completely subjectively, then try to analyze them objectively, because I find the latter almost as much fun as the former. (I really am strange.) Looking at the new series objectively, I agree that it’s not bad in general; on a subjective level, though, it’s not what I want from a TV show, hence my disappointment. Okay, maybe next series.

@missy – Husbands of River Song is a great example of subjective vs. objective. Objectively it’s a potent mix of poignant and hilarious, but I hated it the first time ’round, and still don’t enjoy it like I should. I loved Clara from her first line in Asylum of the Daleks (one of the first ep’s I saw), and was still feeling the hole she left in 12’s memories. I don’t do lighthearted well while mourning. Silly me. 🙂

I haven’t gone bonkers in awhile—well, more bonkers than usual—quiet back there!—and I thought this might be the occasion. I have a theory for the New Year’s special! It’s even more unlikely than usual, too! Plus I can get through my monthly exclamation point quota!

We’ve seen from the ad/trailer that some ninth-century warriors are followed by some twenty-first century types, after which some car comes careening down the road, and then we hear Exterminate!

See, some ninth-century warriors are fighting to possess a spot that prophesy says will one day become a toxic waste dump and arachnid resort. The prophesy becomes garbled, unfortunately, so that centuries later the Chosen Defender shows up in the wrong place, drunk, throwing salad.

But that’s okay, because the twenty-first century soldiers are a secret chapter of the Jacobite Revision, fighting to protect all trees because one of them is important but they’re no longer sure which. And they show up just in time to fight off some clear-cutting loggers, who are the most confused yet, because they really misheard things, which if they’d gotten right would have had them in Norway looking for a near-dimension frogger.

The TARDIS team would have been in trouble with all those stray bullets and axe handles flying around, but luckily an unforeseen car comes flying up. Rosa Parks realized years ago she dropped a stitch, and finally one of her disciples has found the Doctor and the coat in question, and gets them out of the firefight.

At which point the Daleks are just emerging to exterminate the Doctor and anyone else handy. Daleks are difficult at the best of times; away from the TARDIS, with only a sonic, what can the Doctor and crew do?

Be brilliant, of course. The Doctor knew this moment would come, because you can’t keep a bad Dalek down, and uses the sonic to send a pulse. A pulse that an unvanquished enemy would recognize. And follow.

The Pting knows a good thing when it finds one, and has been trying to find the nice lady who gave it that fantastic meal a few months back. It appears and eats the Daleks, saving the world, and ensuring that the Doctor will never be rid of her hungry hungry nipper!

Unfortunately, unlike yourself and everyone else on this forum, I cannot watch something I have a passion for objectively. Never have been good at it.

With me it’s all emotion, like a lot of women – note I said a lot of women, not all. If I love something, change is “abhorrent” to me, which is perhaps a strong word, but I feel strongly. I admire anyone who has the gift of objectivity.

Sack the writers’ is simply brainless, even though I much prefer Moffat and RTD, to each his own.

@missy – I certainly still feel the emotions, but I find when I analyze after, it enhances the enjoyment I have for something that’s good…and distances me from the dismay I feel for something that isn’t. So for me it’s a win-win.

Doctor Who does change all the time, and sometimes the change is an improvement, and sometimes it isn’t. I see no reason to accept the latter, so long as I remember that what’s improvement to one person can be impairment to another.

Such a sensible approach and I cannot fault you on that. Unfortunately analysis of films, stories etcetera, has always been a mystery to me, I simply can’t do it.

A friend (teacher) once told me that she could teach me how to analyse what I read or saw, but remembering how many times she had looked forward to a novel or a film, and after analysing it found it fell short of expectations – I turned her down. Where’s the fun in that? I either love, like or detest it no “oh, it’s all right,” for me, I don’t want to take it apart and see how it ticks. Why I love, like or detest a thing is neither here nor there, I simply do.

It’s a flipping curse, and with this new series, I loathe the idea of a female Doctor, and dislike the actress, so I’m stuck in no man’s land.

Having every series since 2005, I can watch what I do approve of, even though touched with sadness.