00:00:25 JAS415: his page could really use some minimal CSS touchup
00:00:52 mathrick: Fairly certain that page predates CSS by a couple years.
00:00:55 i mean i guess on current architectures it might be kind of slow, but i would think there could be an architecture that minimizes the problems
00:01:50 pkhuong: right, I didn't notice that it wasn't only the bottom links that ended around 1995, the top ones too
00:02:37 yeah don't let the lack of nice style-sheets put you off reading the postscript files
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00:21:58 Hey all :) I'm still pretty new to lisp, slowly working my way through, as I have time, and I'd like to know if there is a nice lisp shell that I can use for experimenting with lisp. Currently I'm using sbcls shell, but it's a bit annoying, every time I mistype something I get a full page of debug output and get dropped into debugger mode. Also it doesn't seem to have any command history and doesn't support 'Home' and 'End', which is mil
00:21:59 dly annoying.
00:22:26 minion: tell whoppix about slime
00:22:27 whoppix: direct your attention towards slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime
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00:22:36 use the slime-repl.
00:22:56 kpreid, ah, I haven't thought of that, even though I already have slime installed. Thanks!
00:23:11 In fact, I recommend using the slime-repl even if you don't like editing with emacs
00:23:30 (and who wouldn't like that?!)
00:23:40 the only way to learn lisp is through immersion and hours of zen-like meditation :P
00:24:07 immersion in jam, specifically.
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00:25:37 *kpreid* has somehow forgotten how he learned CL.
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00:38:08 kpreid, thanks, thats much better (even though I'm still not particularily fond of emacs).
00:38:42 whoppix: currently, SLIME is the best choice. You don't have to use emacs for anything else.
00:39:04 Adlai, yeah, but I'll try to get used to it.
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00:39:54 hmm, another thing, this question might sound a bit dumb, but.. after I installed emacs from my mirror, I automatically got an emacs with GTK+ interface. Does emacs have some console-only mode?
00:40:05 one of the big advantages of SLIME is its integration with files. I actually am not a huge fan of it's debugger.
00:40:16 whoppix: try emacs -nw
00:40:17 whoppix: from the command line, "emcas -nw"
00:40:28 ah, thanks a lot!
00:40:51 Ok, but now it can't capture my meta-key anymore.
00:41:10 (the gtk interface is pretty nice if you want to try out some themes, most of them look garbage on console)
00:41:18 hm, that's an issue.
00:41:29 I think ESC works as a meta
00:41:40 Adlai, true! thanks a lot.
00:41:57 ie, "ESC x slime" is the same as "M-x slime"
00:42:06 Yeah, works great.
00:42:24 good to know anyway, I still have some boxes standing around that don't even have a meta-key.
00:42:47 -!- schoppen1auer is now known as schoppenhauer
00:43:29 if you have a control key that's easy to reach, you might want to make a control binding that gives you the same effect as M-x
00:43:40 (because every command can be run from M-x
00:44:09 I've got C-c C-m bound to that
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00:44:37 Adlai, escape works for now, I'll think about it once I got some more used to emacs.
00:44:40 so even when I use the console mode, I can still do M-x (which is by far the most common use of the Meta key in Emacs, afaik)
00:44:42 I'm still feeling pretty alien.
00:44:59 there's a page with some good tips, let me see if I can find it...
00:45:35 http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/effective-emacs
00:46:04 Thanks a lot, Adlai.
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00:46:34 Not all the tips on that page will be useful, tbh. However, I do recommend following his tips about how to scroll around effectively.
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01:14:29 meta-w, meta-y, ctrl-meta-w
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02:00:57 helo
02:03:23 hi pokey9
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02:50:49 /me reads mcclim git logs
02:50:51 "from mcclim.git /gitweb http://sbcl.boinkor.net/gitweb by Gilbert Baumann"
02:50:54 gilbert is back!
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02:52:14 I have just got a lisp development setup running using clbuild. But, I noticed that, even though I have Aquamacs installed, clbuild slime kicks off a terminal version of emacs that I believe comes preinstalled on OSX 10.5. How can I persuade clbuild to use my Aquamacs?
02:53:06 you can just tell slime in aquamacs to use clbuild's lisp as the inferior lisp
02:53:09 (that's what I do)
02:53:40 How do I access slime in Aquamacs?
02:54:00 just add the clbuild slime directory (clbuild/sources/slime/ it is, IIRC) to the load-path, then set inferior-lisp to ".../clbuild/clbuild lisp" - and that should be it
02:54:26 Thanks!
02:54:27 then you should be able to M-x slime and it'll start the clbuild lisp
02:54:31 hope this wroks
02:54:43 Well, I can but try...
02:54:45 been a long time since I looked at that part of my slime setup (:
02:54:51 I appreciate the tip
02:55:00 -!- eno__ is now known as eno
02:55:37 (ah, the variable is called inferior-lisp-program)
02:57:41 Should I be making those settings in my ~/.emacs file?
03:00:42 hmm interesting... sbcl and ecl appear to generate errors (simple-error for ecl, sb-int:stream-decoding-error for sbcl) at read-char if an invalid sequence is read, yet for at least one of those other utf8 applications I use seem to read it
03:00:56 will have to look into the implementations tomorrow possibly
03:02:31 I think that the character "á" triggers such error for instance but I'll have to test more throughly
03:04:15 or at least the version of a similar character which is part of sad0ur_'s ircname :)
03:04:40 which x-chat and urxvt decode to the above char
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03:07:25 so of course if not using a custom read-line a whole line is lost in the occurance of such a sequence
03:07:58 s/in the/at the/
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03:12:03 or if not using a byte-neutral external format of course
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03:21:33 Greetings.
03:21:49 pkhuong: ping
03:25:09 Test... 1-2-3 Test... 1-2-3 Is this thing on?
03:26:06 you can't expect him to appear right away
03:26:54 It was the lack of traffic in here that prompted that, not the lack of pkhuong.
03:26:59 antifuchs, Thanks! SLIME is now working with Aquamacs. Your directions were right on the money.
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03:31:49 On a totally unrelated note, I have some code I'm modifying that is in the public domain. I'd like to slap some verbage at the top of the source files indicating that, does someone have some boilerplate for public domain?
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03:34:14 tmh: look at the sbcl source
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04:13:42 tmh: have a look at http://darcs.informatimago.com/public/emacs/pjb-source.el
04:13:43 -!- malcolm_reynolds [n=malcolm_@78-86-4-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit []
04:14:08 Theres a pjb-add-header which let you choose which license to use.
04:14:36 (along with a pjb-change-license command if you change your mind).
04:15:27 g'day
04:15:41 Make it http://darcs.informatimago.com/emacs/pjb-sources.el
04:16:28 slava: Thanks, that was the inspiration I needed.
04:16:37 pjb: Is that part of some larger package?
04:17:32 That's part of my emacs stuff. You may try to extract a few functions, but I offer no guarantee of standaloness.
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04:18:28 pjb: I just noticed the summary.html, I'll look through that.
04:18:56 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/emacs/ is the home page.
04:20:14 It's not uptodate, cvs has been replaced by darcs... :-(
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04:21:52 Still looks good. I don't have too many files, but it still may be worth my time to learn to use some of your stuff. I use darcs, so that's fine with me.
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04:34:12 People that use single variable names should be given a verbal warning followed by a written one if they don't reform. After that, a finger should be broken for each infraction. I used to use single variable names, but I reformed. It's time to start spreading the message.
04:34:56 What do you call "single variable name"?
04:35:26 Sorry, single letter name. As in i,j and t,s.
04:36:04 t is a constant. Otherwise, in general yes. There are exceptions.
04:36:23 pjb: This is in C, but the principle applies.
04:36:55 For look indices, i,j may be justified.
04:36:58 *loop
04:37:32 I used to agree, but now I prefer i0 and i1, it makes it easier for searching.
04:37:45 *kpreid* feels that a variable name's length should be adjusted according to its scope and frequency of use
04:38:26 tmh: search for regexp \
04:40:47 Just tried that on for(i=1;i Thanks
04:41:23 Thanks to emacs! :-)
04:41:49 tmh: calling them i0 or i1 or etc would be even worse, sinc eit would suggest some opaque special meaning
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04:42:04 'i' can generally be safely assumed to be a loop index.
04:42:35 Well, it does have a meaning, i0 is the first index, i1 is the second and so forth. Seems logical to me.
04:42:37 i like to name my string variables i just to mess with people
04:43:14 By first index, I mean outer most loop.
04:43:37 i, j, sometimes k
04:43:38 :-)
04:43:59 tmh: oh, in *nested* loops, yeah
04:44:09 i/j/k works too though
04:44:30 perhaps less well if you've got a bad editor
04:44:36 but we're lispers; we don't use bad editors ^^
04:45:27 sometimes i feel like i'm the only one who doesn't use the loop macro extensively
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04:46:04 JAS415: { char* i="abc"; for(int s=0;s<3;s++){putchar(s[i]);}} // >:->}
04:46:06 JAS415: I'm a recent convert. There are still places where I use dotimes, dolist and do, but I mainly use loop now.
04:46:14 tmh: pong?
04:46:50 Hey pkhuong, have you seen Scimark2? -> http://math.nist.gov/scimark2/index.html
04:47:12 i like how there's a smilie face embedded in it
04:47:52 i think its just because i've only really dealth with code somewhere between CLTL and ansi
04:48:00 >:->}
04:48:21 tmh: nope, what makes this one interesting?
04:48:27 oh wait
04:48:34 or is that not part of the code
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04:49:02 You may customize smiley-regexp-alist to remove ? after the dash.
04:49:04 its not, i've just had too much beer
04:49:26 pkhuong: It reports the results in MFlops. There is equivalent C and Java code. I've been working, slowly in my *spare* time, on the lisp translation.
04:49:42 ;) is not a smiley. It should be written ;-)
04:49:50 woah
04:50:05 "Can the original source code be further optimizied? Some optimizations are done by hand, such as multidimensional array aliasing and loop unrolling, but the source codes could be further optimized. (Eventually, most of these should be performed by a good optimizing compiler.)" the brackets don't even balance, what type of programming language is this :-P
04:51:27 pkhuong: Well, looking at the code would inspire even less confidence, but I like the approach and think it can be cleaned up. I thought it might be useful for evaluating changes to SBCL.
04:52:15 The approach being reporting the results in terms of MFLOPS>
04:54:30 I started out today putting together the lisp version of the FFT code, but have spent most of the evening editing the C code. I've scanned the Java code and it looks as rough. But, it's an interesting little side project and has potential.
04:58:15 tmh: sure, as a regression test, it could be interesting. The fact that it focuses on non-cache effects isn't too useful.
04:58:26 The approach is also looking at performance for different numerical things: FFT, SOR, Monte Carlo, Sparse matrix multiply and LU factorization.
04:59:53 pkhuong: You can run large versions that will be out of cache.
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05:01:46 There is a lot of room for refinement, my list of open items is growing fast as I work through the code.
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05:04:38 Good morning.
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05:09:44 antifuchs: Indeed, gilberth is back. I hope he stays for a while.
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05:38:58 I forget, can we do "info bubbles" in McCLIM, i.e. display something when the cursor moves over an output record?
05:41:03 I mean, I am sure I could program it myself by using something like highlight-presentation, but I was wondering whether something already exists.
05:48:49 nothing springs to mind
05:50:39 Well, maybe using popups is a bad idea anyway. Here is the application I am thinking of: I display a text in Vietnamese, and when I mouse over a word, I get the translation in some other window. I was thinking that other window should be a popup, but it is probably better to have a separate pane actually.
05:51:06 if you look at the not so recently enhanced bordered output code, which I in my enthusiasm made a complete mess of, it uses some presentation highlighting method to change the color of the border to make it light up under the cursor, so that approach definitely works
05:52:02 hefner: Yeah, I figured, I'll make a presentation-method on highlight-presentation that just displays the dictionary entry in a different pane. That would be easy enough to program.
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06:00:26 Hmm, that application would be very different from the others I have written
06:00:45 At least in terms of display-time of the panes.
06:02:42 doesn't necessarily have to be
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06:05:46 hefner: No, but the other applications I have written have used a data structure that gets updated as a result of using the application, so it needs to redisplay at each iteration of the command loop. This is not the case here.
06:06:27 hefner: Furthermore, IIRC highlighting is not synchronized with the command loop, so if I display something in a pane as a result of highlighting, I need to redisplay "manually" right then.
06:06:46 hefner: In those two respects, this application would be different from others I have written.
06:10:36 hefner: Or am I missing something?
06:14:23 that sounds correct, yes, but exactly when the pane is drawn into, and on behalf of whom (whether from a display function invoked by the command loop, a display function invoke by the user, or as random drawing into the pane), seems like a minor detail to me.
06:15:36 It might be. It is just that I have no experience with applications like that.
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06:49:02 How do I get me some file creation date information?
06:49:24 and access date i guess.
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07:26:54 schme: besides FILE-WRITE-DATE you probably have to use external libraries
07:29:41 creation and access times aren't very useful anyway, except to look at.
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07:31:19 access time is a stupid idea
07:31:25 just increases disk IO for little gain
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07:49:11 IIRC file-write-date works vs. file-creation time and (if modified since created) file-modification time
07:50:49 say what?
07:51:51 what what?
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07:59:16 sb-posix has stuff for access-time .. (sb-posix:stat-atime (sb-posix:stat "stuff.txt")) => u-time
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10:11:32 hi
10:14:33 hello
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10:18:51 lnostdal: thanks.
10:19:12 slava: Yes access time can be a bugger. But I noticed that sbcl did not go happy when I tried to build it with it disabled :)
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10:22:12 hefner: ctimes are enormously useful
10:22:22 atimes probably less so, but occasionally come in handy
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10:25:33 I am bit of journal software and I generally just want to pick the latest created entry.
10:25:44 Seemed ctime would be a good way to go. :P
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10:41:28 mathrick: useful for what? half of mine reflect the time I copied the old disk to this one (and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but why break a habit of years), and then on the other hand things unpack out of archive files with their own ctime when I'd rather they have the time they were unpacked.
10:42:25 hefner: if you did it right, it should reflect the times they were created on the old disk, which is exactly the thing that's so useful about ctimes
10:43:11 because most archive formats get ctimes right, they can give you a lot of clue about the age of random undated archives floating around the net (which is most of them)
10:43:50 mathrick: "created" ??
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10:44:17 hmm, or maybe I just confused myself and meant mtimes
10:44:21 I probably did
10:47:19 hmm, I'm totally confused.
10:49:05 I had mtime and ctime mixed up. Sorting by ctime is, for my purposes, helpful.
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10:51:22 so you both mixed up ctimes and mtimes and now you still disagree?
10:51:23 the ctime is not a very useful piece of information
10:51:26 it means too many things
10:52:22 that may be, but it seems like the most convenient one by which to sort a directory listing
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10:53:17 hefner: why not mtime?
10:57:19 my use case is as follows: I download a zip file. I unzip the file. I list the directory. I would like it sorted such that the newly created files are at the bottom of the listing. Sorting by mtime, they will instead be somewhere in the middle, because their mtime came from metadata in the archive. Sorting by ctime, they seem to be where I would like.
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10:58:16 (I like my directory listings to reflect chronologically what I've been doing in that directory)
11:00:25 unzip -DD?
11:00:50 (this seems like a kludge, and yeah, maybe I should just learn the appropriate switches to the archiver programs)
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11:04:21 and then moving the files around will wipe the ctimes, which is bad, yet if I move a single file into a directory, I probably want its ctime changed, so my expectations aren't consistent either way
11:06:49 oh well, timestamps are stupid anyway.
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11:08:34 hello
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11:09:37 Perhaps you would be interested in cp -a
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11:11:06 Is there some folk wisdom addressing my complaint that we often care about relative order rather than absolute times, such that truncating to seconds may discard the information we want, or is the answer just to crank up the timestamp resolution and pretend there's no problem?
11:11:51 Don't know, but it makes sense.
11:12:40 is there a key combination in slime to indent lisp code?
11:13:13 C-M-q indents the sexps at point
11:13:25 C-c M-q indents the toplevel form that point is in
11:13:40 Zhivago: in theory I know to use that, and will sware that I did and do use it, but in practice, half my mtimes seem to reflect the date I transitioned to this computer :)
11:13:45 a true folk wisdom would run closer to "what's 'timestamp'?"
11:14:17 cmm, the little sticky pieces of paper you put on things that travel in time.
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11:15:40 tic: "you want me to stick postits on the monitor, then?"
11:16:09 caliostro: C-M-\ is indent region
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11:16:30 but be careful, it's right next to Ctlr+Alt+Backspace, which is "kill X instantly"
11:16:34 you don't want to press that
11:16:34 it doesn't work here
11:16:56 how exactly does that manifest?
11:17:15 i am running slime on emacs on windows, may be windows the problem?
11:17:30 again, how exactly does not working manifest?
11:18:03 cmm: post-tits
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11:19:04 C-c M-q is undefined
11:19:58 caliostro: You have to use the slime-editing-commands contrib
11:20:20 better just use the slime-fancy contrib
11:20:24 caliostro: are you using it in REPL?
11:20:30 in a REPL
11:20:45 if so, it won't be defined, it's only bound in source files
11:20:56 but C-M-\ works
11:21:15 so does C-M-q
11:21:49 talking about toplevel sexps in REPL makes no sense anyway
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11:31:27 Wow, I have some weird file named x1; in my ~/
11:31:46 turns out it's some xml file from gaim which contains my accounts' passwords
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11:38:20 cmm, "folk wisdom" probably applies to a different subset of "folk", in this case :-)
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11:57:05 Hey guys, I have a variable A with the contents '(setf name-of). Now I'd like to get
11:57:05 the function which this variable is supposed to represent. However when doing #'A I get
11:57:05 the function A instead of #'(setf name-of). What am I doing wrong?
11:57:44 #' is a shorthand for the special operator FUNCTION
11:57:53 the special operator FUNCTION does not evaluate its argument
11:58:26 Why do you have a variable with the content (SETF NAME-OF)? Why does the variable not just contain the function?
11:58:58 I have a macro which is similar to defmethod. The first argument is A.
11:59:35 Now I'd like to know whether the method already exists, so I don't overwrite anything.
12:00:00 however find-method only accepts FUNCTION objects.
12:00:24 so I have to create a FUNCTION object out of the function name
12:01:44 Joreji: First test with FBOUNDP if there's a global function, and if so you can use FDEFINITION to retrieve the function object
12:02:32 Notice that find-method takes a generic-function object, not just any function object, so you probably also want to test the return of value of fdefinition with (typep result 'generic-function)
12:02:33 If you /would/ want to do that though, is there another way other than eval?
12:02:48 Hrm, nm.
12:05:38 Joreji: Notice that special operators, and macros are also fboundp, so you actually want (and (function-name-p thing) (fboundp thing) (not macro-function thing) (not (special-operator-p thing)))
12:05:57 function-name-p is true for symbols, and lists of the form (setf foo)
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12:08:55 tcr: Cool thanks!
12:09:16 Hi guys, I asked this at #emacs but didn't get a straight answer maybe someone has done it here
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12:10:40 you know how whatever you type after defvar or defun is highlighted in a chosen color with font-mode... can you add other keywords to that list so for example any variable typeed after setf will be colored in a chosen color?
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12:11:21 sure
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12:12:05 tcr: FDEFINITION is better because it sees the setf forms (defmethod (setf class) (...) ...) as one name "setf class".
12:12:45 Is better than what?
12:12:46 tcr: better than symbol-function that is.
12:13:08 Thanks for telling me!!!
12:14:11 tcr: can pls you share the info (i assume the 'sure' was answer to my quest)?
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12:14:53 tcr: it is a late-comer in the ANSI spec. to facillitate the implementation of CLOS. (like general setf and symbol-macro)
12:15:42 francogrex: M-x find-library font-lock, study the end of that file
12:16:00 tcr: ok will do thanks
12:17:49 francogrex: yes, take a look at how my .emacs set's faces http://paste.lisp.org/+1TAI.
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12:21:13 jthing ok; what i'm looking for is a way to have whatever is added after setf be considered as http://paste.lisp.org/+1 TAI.
12:21:22 sorry
12:21:28 jthing ok; what i'm looking for is a way to have whatever is added after setf be considered as
12:21:45 variable-name
12:22:28