I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is. I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

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Jikan wrote:I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is. I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

I think the emphasis is on institutional. These small (or not so small) groups lack the institutional system that the "old churches" have. But besides that I find their ways of presentation and spreading similar to those groups (not necessarily Vajrayana related) that are now the great institutions. Just think how many schools started as unorthodox sects with questionable practices from India to Japan.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

Astus wrote:But what about relics, blessed rosaries and scarves, mummies, statues, etc.? They're said to be powerful things.

They might very well be powerful things for the Vajrayana Buddhist. I couldn't say... but I don't like how they are pushing these Buddhist practices as some kind of cure-all magic formula, for the princely some of $***.

Jikan wrote:I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is. I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

I think the emphasis is on institutional. These small (or not so small) groups lack the institutional system that the "old churches" have. But besides that I find their ways of presentation and spreading similar to those groups (not necessarily Vajrayana related) that are now the great institutions. Just think how many schools started as unorthodox sects with questionable practices from India to Japan.

I know a whole crew of people who know this guy personally, who were his students for quite a long period of time. He is not a scrupulous person.

Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

Huiguo did not go to Japan with Kukai. Huiguo died. This is why Kukai returned to Japan earlier than originally planned.

Of course, this bears repeating, but Jake is right; Huiguo never went to China with Kūkai; according to Kūkai's account (source being Hakeda's: Major Works):

On the night of the full moon in the twelth month of the same year Hui-Kuo purified himself in a ritual bath, lay on his right side and, making the mudra (hand gesture) of Mahavairocana Buddha, breathed his last. Kūkai, representing the disciples and followers of Hui-kuo, wrote the epitaph for his late master's tomb.

OK, forgive the length here - but I have watched this discussion about DeChan JueRen and Hanmi for a long time, hoping that someone else would speak up. Seeing no one else, I will make the attempt. I spent some time with this teacher, and have been with him in China, and can verify from first hand experience that he was well known in buddhist circles there, and that he was respected. I spoke about him with lamas at the Palace of Harmony temple in Beijing, I saw him with the abbot of Shaolin at Shaolin, and with Grand Master Fwo Jr in ChengDu. Because of the strange history of this lineage, it is my understanding that to be formally recognized in China, he had to prove that he had some of the ancient sutra and seals of this lineage. He had to answer to a group of other Rinpoche(s) questions on sutra and tantra, and to demonstrate that he had attained certain siddhi - all of which he did to the satisfaction of the other buddhist rinpoche there. Further, I have met Grand Master Fwo Jr and spent some time in monasteries of both DeChan JueRen and Master FwoJr. I have seen literally thousands .. maybe tens of thousands - at least the lines went on for quite a distance - of people lining the streets for a ceremony in which M Fwo Jr opened a new temple. When DeChan JueRen was ill with metastatic cancer, he never stopped teaching, never took a break for himself, never seemed to be concerned for himself, never complained. I should qualify this to say that the first time I saw this person, I too was skeptical, and in fact was going only to a free talk, to practice listening in Chinese after decades of not using it. My first impression was that he was a lunatic whom I would never study seriously with. But since I did start picking up a bit of Chinese, I went back. After a few days with him, I realized that there was much more to him than I had initially given him credit for. Years later, after my experiences with him - I could reach no other conclusion than that DeChan JueRen was a bona fide Rinpoche. A great Rinpoche in fact. Regarding some of the advertising in the U.S. - I have had similar reactions to it - however, there are some valid points i have heard in response to this concern - so i will attempt to list a few of them. first - he never did his own advertising...and frankly i doubt he even looked at it - second - he was never a teacher that looked for large numbers of students - he would give a wonderful teaching, and then - if too many people showed up the next day, he would just give a lecture about good conduct, or even about the flaws of americans (if in america) or other people if elsewhere - until the audience would thin out after a few days - and then he would give a great teaching again. I saw this many times, and even asked about why he did it. I was told that people either took the time to know him, or perhaps it wasn't their destiny. Third, in general he was not seeking the veteran of buddhism, with deep attachment to their pre-existing intellectual understanding - he wanted people who would come to the practice with an exploratory mind -and learn through actual practice - more so than intellectualization. Fourth - he did not live in luxury at all, ever, and several of his students have seen him give away large sums - he was not attached to money - but he did say that many americans have a mistaken view about dharma being "free" - dharma should not be "sold" but a student should come to the dharma with the idea that it is precious, and that the teacher is precious, and that it is appropriate to make offerings to one's teacher - or to any teacher that one learns from. I did see him give dharma for free, in fact many times - when he judged that a person had a certain level of merit or when someone was practicing diligently and etc. Fifth - i never heard him say so, but one student made the comment that a teacher may use the self interest of people to bring them to the dharma path - so that they could begin to transform as they attained the benefits of the dharma. I do know some people who offered him beautiful land, which he turned down - and yet he tended to base his centers in poor, polluted areas instead. when asked why - he said that that was where he was needed most. regarding the history of Kukai and Hui Guo - i would posit that if there is an erroneous statement made somewhere, that is probably an error on the part of a student, rather than anything he said personally. Regardless, the suppression of esoteric buddhism by one of the Tang emporers, and its subsequent appearance as Shingon in Japan is well documented. I should note that there were some Japanese Shingon priests among his disciples. Finally, I can say that many people benefitted greatly from this man's teachings and healings. On the balance after watching him for years, I concluded that he was an extremely attained and benevolent teacher, a great teacher in fact. When he passed away, I brought a picture of him on the altar at the Tibetan Dharma Center here - the Lama here looked at his picture, and said - "oh! such a great teacher! he is an emanation of the boddhisattva!" those were his words. He also told me that this man had given his students enough dharma for seven lifetimes. This same Tibetan lama has benefitted me and others in many ways, and has many qualities in his own right. Finally, with regard to Zen and Chan - Zen is Japanese for the Chinese word Chan. As for the teachings themselves, many of the mantras and visualizations were identical or similar to Tibetan meditations I have learned over the years. Except that this teacher made the meditations somehow alive - or that was my experience. With great gratitude and respect, I could not fail to speak up for this very benevolent and genuine teacher.

one should be careful when discussing the merits or demerits of others, such can produce undesirable effects. i have read this last post and feel comfortable with its tone and humility. i sense no kind of deception in this text.

careful... yes. but to avoid slander is advisable.

best wishes, Tom.

in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

jrsan wrote: When he passed away, I brought a picture of him on the altar at the Tibetan Dharma Center here - the Lama here looked at his picture, and said - "oh! such a great teacher! he is an emanation of the boddhisattva!" those were his words. He also told me that this man had given his students enough dharma for seven lifetimes. This same Tibetan lama has benefitted me and others in many ways, and has many qualities in his own right.

Just noticed this post, so I apologize for being late to ask a question or two about it. Would you mind telling us which Tibetan master made this assertion?

I should note that there were some Japanese Shingon priests among his disciples.

That's remarkable. Do you happen to know any of their names, or which temples they belonged to?

He had to answer to a group of other Rinpoche(s) questions on sutra and tantra, and to demonstrate that he had attained certain siddhi - all of which he did to the satisfaction of the other buddhist rinpoche there.

Which Rinpoches?

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edit: this post is venting, i know, however, someone has to shed light onto this man's grotesque way of doing things. I'm a very crediable source, one that knew a few of master Dechan Jueren's disciples. So much so, that i can give a detailed write up on each and every one that i know and what has happened to them, however i'm only brushing up on a point here, and that it's dangerous! this is a cult, not a branch of Buddhism. sorry.

I registered specifically to reply to this thread and discertain my uttmost disgust with this cult. Plain and simple, this is a doomsday cult that claims they are allowed to kill. Yes, you read that right. They believe AND PROMOTE! that they are the only lineage allowed to kill and that from said killing, under this premise that it's the "EARTH CHANGE" that any said being they kill will reincarnate into a higher existence, and that the killer, will actually earn merit. The Hanmi practitioners are all told day in and day out that it's the end of the world, yet no-one does anything about it. They're all told that they must marry each other, regardless of age, creed or walk of life, and run off into Alaska, Sibera, or Northern Canada to physically and literally survive an impending doomsday set to go off in the very very near future. I knew a close friend of mine that left his family, he literally yelled at his parents and grand parents in keeping loyalty to his guru and literally moved into the of northern canada. He was a genius! and now he's probably waking up to the fact he was brainwashed and manipulated by a cult that took advantage of his devotional and loyal heart. This man showed me video and transcripts of master Dechan Jueren, that constantly refer to this "earth change" and now i find that this Living Buddha died of cancer? must be from all the lives he's ruined.

Please ask me a million questions about this post as i have a million answers.

Historically, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, or the Hanmi Mystery School, was thought to be lost when Emperor Tang Wuzong banned the teaching. Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

So if it has been kept a secret for 1200 years why bring it into the open now? They get bored with all the cloaks and daggers?

"So if it has been kept a secret for 1200 years why bring it into the open now? They get bored with all the cloaks and daggers?"

According to them, it's the "Earth Change" a term that has NEVER been officially defined by Dechan Jueren, and this is why the lineage is now no longer one master->one disciple only. The problem is the discontinuity on the teachings from Dechan Jueren to the other disciples. The other disciples lie to each other in order to tease, scare, garner favor, and appear greater than they really are. here's an example, they disciples take instruction form Dechan Juren, however Dechan Jueren can't speak English, and relies on a translator. The translator's exploits his master in adding his own spice and appending his own (of what i call ) "attainment commentary" to the teachings, little micro lessons on the curtials of the master, that were in no what what dechan juren said. Here's a link to a video of Dechan Jueren giving a lecture at the LA temple in regards to the fukushima nuclear radiation incident back in 2011, and makes plenty of references to the "Earth Change."

It's filled with tons of lies to the other disciples, where the translator claims to have all these siddhi, and special powers, w/o any proof. The translator pretty much makes his claim to fame from this website, and does so by claiming that Dechan Juren gave him these special under the table dharma transmissions, that were exclusive only to him. ie, being able to to transmit the Ucchusma transmissions to others.

The disciples all also complain that Dan Kendall made himself the abbot of the "highest American Hanmi Temple" the one in LA, however he's only the custodian there, but he also leverages the language barrier to make himself look bigger/more important than he really is. Out of the disciples i've spoken to, they're all afriad of each other and have been taught that Dechan Jueren's the only entitiy on this planet with the ability to see this earth change, and there's really only one of them who could display any siddhi, or attainment, and he's now running around in the mountains and horse ranches of northern canada. I personally saw him take a cup of water and nudge it across the surface just by stareing at it. He could also emit lights, sometimes as a stright vertical line from his body, or other times as little dots either in the space in front of him, or like a little tiny fireball from his forehead. He said that he made his life so that all he does is do these tantras, he barely ever does anything else, he says that at times, even shopping for groceries is hard from him as items will continually ring up wrong, or the cashier can't talk to him properly, and he says he has to put his mind back into his pocket. (this is somewhat frivolous, however, i know what i saw, and to see this from a Caucasian westerner, makes me so shamed that Dechan Jueren could mismanage so many of his own American disciples like this. The disciples are all very very strange with a schizophrenic way of looking at things. For example, i talked to a couple that, when i had them over, seamed very level headed, and even were celebrating their new child. When I asked them about certian questions about the earth change, they froze. they were new people, with new refrence points on their life. for example, they told ME that they were even unshure about their newborn b/c of haveing to transport it/take care of it during the flux of this earth change. When i asked them about killing, they pulled out these small 5-7 inch long pairs of dagger they both had, and told me they were empowered to rip apart the "rings?" of any sentient being and that they would collect the merit. i know they were talking metaphorically, however that they couldn't even explain it to me if they themselves understood it.

To recap, I know many of Dechan Juren's disciples, who all invest a portion of their time and merits into this Earch Change nonscence, of which is either a false idea, a metaphor, or a little white lie to get them to practice more. Out of the disciples i've spoke to, i asked every single one if they could actually display any of these siddhi (they always use the term "attainment") and only one could actually do so, and he's so serious about the earth change that he's off god knows where. All the shangha's i've been privilaged to speak to and inquire about their lineages, and such all refuse to recognise that Amoghavajra gave his entire lineage to "Huisu" as the one and only 100% lineage holder, thus invalidating Kobodaishi Kukai, and the entire Koya-san/Shingon school as having any claim to the actual lineage of Nagarjuna, his four heart sons, Amoghavajra and so on. I've spoken to the head at the Shingon schools here in Fresno, CA, and he claims that there was never a Huisu, and that Kobodaishi inherited the entire lineage. I also ask these Rinpoche's and abbots about this "Earch Change" and show them footage of Dechan Jueren referring to it for their opinions, they all say that it's wrong, and ask me to stand up for Dechan Jueren in defending the concept. I've even run into other lineages claiming to be under different "Living Buddhas" and ask them about this Earth Change, and if it's really going to happen, then how can Living Buddha so n so build his temples on fault line such and such. They give me a chase and reply w/ "how does Dechan Jueren know this?" "how does his disciples know this?" Questions i take to heart, and the only real answer i got, outside of tons of fantasy that was floating around a few of the disciples i spoke to, was that the only thing one could do was to keep practicing until you attained.

I genuinely believe that this Hanmi lineage has something to offer, however, with this Earth Change scare tactic, and cultish "we're marrying each other to go run off and live in self architected cabins in the mountians of northern Canada as magical monks with healing powers, and killing powers that can actually make animals renounce their bodies right in front of you to sustain yourself" nonscence is of a grate detriment. If this is the lineage of Mahavairocana, the "evolution lineage" isn't this a concept of devolution? Some of these other lineages claim there's even another mahavairocana dharma king living buddha that isn't Dechan Jueren. So from what i saw in arguable the only attained disciple was that he renounced his house, his family, his entire life, to trade down, to downgrade himself as a hermit in some farse of an idea in northern canada. Doesn't he know that he can't settle anywhere in Canada? It's all "Queen's Land" and no-one is allowed to claim any part of that territory. This man was a genius, a term i don't go throwing around, he was/is a highly intelligent man, and should be off professoring and lectureing Madyamaka philosophy and tieing in his attainment/personal experiences and even schooling H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama and Robert Thurman. Even Robert Thurman doesn't have the balls this man has, and could really learn something from a true Bikksu, a truly ordained monk.