MugzyBrown:kwame: That will never, ever happen. So it's an irrelevant point.

It's already happened in almost every major sport in the world, including the US. The only exceptions are the NFL and NBA.

The MLB and NHL use hybrid systems.

Soccer uses private soccer acadamies sponsored by the clubsEver hear of an NCAA tennis champion winning a major?Sidney Crosby went to which college?

Well with basketball at least, kids can get drafted from Europe, at least with the NBA. So you could technically go to Europe to play. Besides, most of the future NBA and NFL players are already paid -- in college. People who think otherwise are just kidding themselves. Maybe they aren't paid 'market value' but if they aren't ready for the NBA or football they'd be paid like they are in baseball minor leagues, jack sh*t - which with school prices today they already get with their standard scholarship.

Plus, I hate to say this, but there are a number of athletes whose parents genuinely want them to get an education. Outside of football and basketball plenty of sports are also included under the NCAA umbrella.

I wish the organization was a lot more transparent, though. What I would bet is happening is that a lot of white guys are gladhanding themselves and getting rich off the backs of student athletics. That is some bullsh*t if it's true. Also, the NCAA's violations program is a travesty of justice, they rarely ever shoot down a top program. Sure they might target Kentucky - football, or Duke - football, or Alabama - basketball.

bdub77:Maybe they aren't paid 'market value' but if they aren't ready for the NBA or football they'd be paid like they are in baseball minor leagues, jack sh*t - which with school prices today they already get with their standard scholarship.

A kid like Wiggins would get signed by an NBA team for a multi-million dollar deal. Is he getting that at Kansas? Is that how much a year's tuition at Kansas would cost?

NFL is tougher to project, but a top recruit out of high school, especially a QB, would probably get something akin to a 3 year, $2mm contract.

It would greatly improve play in both leagues as you get NBA/NFL developmental coaches working with players to train them to be on their teams in the future, rather than some college coach trying to squeeze a bowl victory out of their players and running a system that doesn't work in the pros.

kwame:bdub77: Plus, I hate to say this, but there are a number of athletes whose parents genuinely want them to get an education.

What?

I hate to say this because people will think it's a joke that most scholarship athletes do attempt to get an education. I have been told, btw, that at most NCAA schools the workload between school and athletics is so difficult that it is very hard for top athletes to genuinely succeed in non-bullsh*t majors. That includes stuff like track and field.

Is there any comprehensive report that details where the NCAA's money goes? I'm sure we're not talking about some wel-balanced nonprofit group that organizes athletics in such a way to benefit student athletes to use their experiences to become the future leaders of the US workforce.

MugzyBrown:NFL is tougher to project, but a top recruit out of high school, especially a QB, would probably get something akin to a 3 year, $2mm contract.

You're insane. There's a reason why the NFL has a restriction on students not leaving college any earlier, and it has nothing to do with being friendly to the NCAA. College is a higher level of competition and there are at least three years of learning under coaches with more expertise and experience than a high school coach.

Would you expect a hiring manager for an engineering firm to hire a kid straight out of high school based on his SAT score and high school GPA?

MugzyBrown:bdub77: Maybe they aren't paid 'market value' but if they aren't ready for the NBA or football they'd be paid like they are in baseball minor leagues, jack sh*t - which with school prices today they already get with their standard scholarship.

A kid like Wiggins would get signed by an NBA team for a multi-million dollar deal. Is he getting that at Kansas? Is that how much a year's tuition at Kansas would cost?

NFL is tougher to project, but a top recruit out of high school, especially a QB, would probably get something akin to a 3 year, $2mm contract.

It would greatly improve play in both leagues as you get NBA/NFL developmental coaches working with players to train them to be on their teams in the future, rather than some college coach trying to squeeze a bowl victory out of their players and running a system that doesn't work in the pros.

Well there are some exceptions, but up until a few years ago high school kids were allowed to play straight out of high school, and many of them didn't do so hot. All you need to do is look at Kentucky's season last year to see a bunch of top talent that was anything but.

bdub77:I have been told, btw, that at most NCAA schools the workload between school and athletics is so difficult that it is very hard for top athletes to genuinely succeed in non-bullsh*t majors. That includes stuff like track and field.

I do this for a living, and I routinely see students who have to make a decision between certain majors and giving up their athletic scholarship. It really sucks, especially considering they sometimes don't even know if that major is right for them, so it's a huge financial gamble. That's a big decision for a 19 year old kid.

kwame:You're insane. There's a reason why the NFL has a restriction on students not leaving college any earlier, and it has nothing to do with being friendly to the NCAA. College is a higher level of competition and there are at least three years of learning under coaches with more expertise and experience than a high school coach.

Would you expect a hiring manager for an engineering firm to hire a kid straight out of high school based on his SAT score and high school GPA?

Like every other major sport in the world, you wouldn't expect to put an inexperienced kid (age varies by sport) on the field and ask them to compete. That's why you would have a lower tier league... like almost every sport in the world.

This way the kid who isn't ready for the NFL, is being trained to play in the NFL by NFL coaches.. oh and he's getting paid to do it, with health coverage, and a contract if he gets hurt If he washes out.. he can... .go to college later.

Or you can go to What'samatta U, tear your ACL in camp as a Freshman and end up with no scholarship, no money, and no plan.

MugzyBrown:Professional development athletics should be removed from the NCAA/colleges. This solves all of the problems with cheating, players being paid, and things such as the NCAA video game franchise.

Not really. Boosters were paying college players back when NFL and NBA players still had to take off-season jobs to make ends meat. If you removed men's basketball and football from NCAA member schools entirely, people would just get all obsessed with baseball or field hockey or whatever. The college atmosphere and the concept of alumni has a lot to do with what drives college sports, even if it is trumped these days by money. People want to see their school win, almost regardless of what they are winning.

What you can do, however is:

- Force the NFL and NBA to remove any age restrictions for players. And yes this would need to come from the federal government. If the leagues are so worried about kids getting hurt or not being ready then they can create their own developmental/minor leagues, academies, etc. Provide an avenue for success to kids who want to be a professional athlete but are not interested in pursuing a 4-year higher education degree.

- Schools can do a lot more to encourage athletes who do want to attend college to keep them their. Eliminate full-ride scholarships and only pay a kids tuition, or perhaps guarantee their tuition if they're hurt or get cut for whatever reason. Stop scheduling M/T/W/Th games halfway across the country. Make sure the amount of practice/travel/game time demanded of the kids is not so demanding that they don't have time for anything else. Get back to the concept of regional conferences. It's supposed to be an extra-curricular activity after all.

Money will still be there. You might not be able to command half a billion dollars for a handful of bowl games, but people are always going to want to watch Texas and Oklahoma play football, whether the game features Ricky Williams and Adrian Peterson, or a bunch of dorks from the School of Engineering.

MugzyBrown:Or you can go to What'samatta U, tear your ACL in camp as a Freshman and end up with no scholarship, no money, and no plan.

Wow what a crazy concept.

What's crazy is you're basing this whole idea of yours on approximately 1.5% of college football players that end up becoming professional players. Yes, there are some who operate under the hope that they are going to be drafted and end up not going pro. More often than not, however, the kids know what their chances are and take advantage of the free education they get for playing.

kwame:What's crazy is you're basing this whole idea of yours on approximately 1.5% of college football players that end up becoming professional players

Why is that crazy? It's how the rest of the world works. The other 98.5% can go to college and play under this plan, it's just the pro-prospects are getting paid and trained by the pros instead of not being paid and exploited by the colleges.

MugzyBrown:kwame: What's crazy is you're basing this whole idea of yours on approximately 1.5% of college football players that end up becoming professional players

Why is that crazy? It's how the rest of the world works. The other 98.5% can go to college and play under this plan, it's just the pro-prospects are getting paid and trained by the pros instead of not being paid and exploited by the colleges.

Because you want to dismantle a working system for giving students a way to go to college just because you think it's unfair that college football players don't get paid to play.

Hey, NFL. We need you to sink a billion dollars into a farm league to replace something that already works because this dude on the internet thinks Reggie Bush should have been able to make $1.5 million dollars when he was 19.

kwame:MugzyBrown: kwame: What's crazy is you're basing this whole idea of yours on approximately 1.5% of college football players that end up becoming professional players

Why is that crazy? It's how the rest of the world works. The other 98.5% can go to college and play under this plan, it's just the pro-prospects are getting paid and trained by the pros instead of not being paid and exploited by the colleges.

Because you want to dismantle a working system for giving students a way to go to college just because you think it's unfair that college football players don't get paid to play.

Hey, NFL. We need you to sink a billion dollars into a farm league to replace something that already works because this dude on the internet thinks Reggie Bush should have been able to make $1.5 million dollars when he was 19.

Athletes generate interest and income. Schools and NCAA profit. The system works!

ElwoodCuse:Hmmmm then maybe those top 1% shouldn't be forced into a system that exploits them to the tune of billions of dollars

Let me know when you find a kid who was "forced" to play football.

js34603:Athletes generate interest and income. Schools and NCAA profit. The system works!

Alabama is the most successful program in this country right now. Their enrollment has increased by almost 30%, and their out of state tuition income has more than doubled. It wasn't because of Mark Ingram and Julio Jones. It was because of Nick Saban. He's getting paid. Now what.

kwame:jayhawk88: Force the NFL and NBA to remove any age restrictions for players

Never going to happen. The federal government will never step in and set restrictions on a private business like that with no reason other than "it's good for the sport."

jayhawk88: Eliminate full-ride scholarships and only pay a kids tuition

In other words, either make it impossible for poor kids to go to college or make the student loan debt problem even larger. You're talking about almost half a million athletes in NCAA schools alone.

I'm curious on what your overall position on this is. Are you saying that student athletes - regardless of the percentage - that only want to play pro sports and have no interest in an education should be "forced" (not really forced, but the accepted, only reasonable way into the NFL or NBA) to attend college for 1 to 3 years? That there shouldn't be steps taken to at least help these kids find another way beyond "sit on your hands for 1 or 3 years and hope we remember you"?

I get that the actual number of players being negatively affected by the current system is not that high, but at the same time, the number of players entering the NBA as high schoolers that were negatively affected was not that high either.

jayhawk88:the number of players entering the NBA as high schoolers that were negatively affected was not that high either.

The only reason highschoolers entering the NBA were negatively affected was because the NBA does not have the infrastructure in place to sign a kid to a 3 year, $500k contract and let him play in a lower league.

Nor does the NFL

Why? Because they're in collusion with the NCAA. One side gets free training and vetting of talent, the other side gets free high-level talent.

kwame:ElwoodCuse: Hmmmm then maybe those top 1% shouldn't be forced into a system that exploits them to the tune of billions of dollars

Let me know when you find a kid who was "forced" to play football.

js34603: Athletes generate interest and income. Schools and NCAA profit. The system works!

Alabama is the most successful program in this country right now. Their enrollment has increased by almost 30%, and their out of state tuition income has more than doubled. It wasn't because of Mark Ingram and Julio Jones. It was because of Nick Saban. He's getting paid. Now what.

Oh yeah that's right Reggie Bush should have just played in Canada or the arena league or something until he was old enough for the NFL.

How many Mark Ingram jerseys did Alabama sell? Oh yeah that's right there's no such thing the just had his number. Athletes generate no money for schools, it's the coach and the school name.

jayhawk88:I'm curious on what your overall position on this is. Are you saying that student athletes - regardless of the percentage - that only want to play pro sports and have no interest in an education should be "forced" (not really forced, but the accepted, only reasonable way into the NFL or NBA) to attend college for 1 to 3 years?

I think that if there was a system that allowed kids to test the waters to play a sport professionally, they should have that opportunity, but with the current system remaining in place. The community, the student body, the university - they all benefit from being able to provide athletic events in exchange for tuition for athletes. There are more benefits than a microscopic number of people who might be able to make a lot of money a few years earlier than they are now.

Football is the only sport that is restrictive like that, so that's the only relevant point. If there was a system that allowed them to go straight in, that would be fine, but the facts don't support that being successful. If you look at other sports like soccer, which doesn't necessarily care about a kid's experience playing in college, you see a ridiculously negligible difference.

1% of college soccer players become professional athletes. .04% become pro athletes out of high school.

It's not significant enough to make the change. Besides, the NFL isn't interested in creating a farm league. The XFL, NFL Europe...they all failed. People don't flock to games to see mediocre athletes play football.

ElwoodCuse:How many Mark Ingram jerseys did Alabama sell? Oh yeah that's right there's no such thing the just had his number. Athletes generate no money for schools, it's the coach and the school name.

Had Mark Ingram played for Stephen F. Austin State University, he would have been lucky to have been drafted. I think he's pretty goddamned happy about playing football for free for three years.

MugzyBrown:jayhawk88: the number of players entering the NBA as high schoolers that were negatively affected was not that high either.

The only reason highschoolers entering the NBA were negatively affected was because the NBA does not have the infrastructure in place to sign a kid to a 3 year, $500k contract and let him play in a lower league.

The D-League? Even before that there was the CBA. There was another reason why there was so much out cry about the NBA drafting high school kids and there wasn't any about the NHL or MLB doing so.

Nor does the NFL

The NFL had the NFL Europe, but with the NFL it was more of a physical development thing. Socially the idea of possibly having an 18 year old getting his lights knocked out by somebody 5-10 years older than him on a football field was frowned down on.

Why? Because they're in collusion with the NCAA. One side gets free training and vetting of talent, the other side gets free high-level talent.

kwame:ElwoodCuse: How many Mark Ingram jerseys did Alabama sell? Oh yeah that's right there's no such thing the just had his number. Athletes generate no money for schools, it's the coach and the school name.

Had Mark Ingram played for Stephen F. Austin State University, he would have been lucky to have been drafted. I think he's pretty goddamned happy about playing football for free for three years.

If Ingram would have put up crazy numbers at Stephen F Austin State he would have been noticed and probably picked in the first round. Steve McNair went to Alcorn State, put up crazy numbers and was drafted 3rd overall. Daunte Culpepper went to UCF and played 1 year with then when they were a D1-AA, and the next three years with them after they moved to D1 and he was drafted 11th overall.

kwame:I think that if there was a system that allowed kids to test the waters to play a sport professionally, they should have that opportunity, but with the current system remaining in place.

The "current system" in a vague sense, or literally everything involved with the current system. The problem I have with the NCAA is their other rules and bullsh*t stipulations. If any random collegiate athlete (regardless of their professional aspirations and chances) wants to work 60 hours a week (a bit extreme, I know, but...) off campus and earn several thousand dollars a month while still somehow maintaining his/her grades and his/her performance on the field/court/rink/whatever, then let them. I was a relatively broke college student too once, and I wouldn't have given a single microscopic f*ck if a classmate of mine on the football team literally walked into class with $100 bills falling out of his pocket. So, what sanctity are we protecting by making sure collegiate athletes aren't much better off in immediate liquidity than other students?

kwame:ElwoodCuse: Hmmmm then maybe those top 1% shouldn't be forced into a system that exploits them to the tune of billions of dollars

Let me know when you find a kid who was "forced" to play football.

js34603: Athletes generate interest and income. Schools and NCAA profit. The system works!

Alabama is the most successful program in this country right now. Their enrollment has increased by almost 30%, and their out of state tuition income has more than doubled. It wasn't because of Mark Ingram and Julio Jones. It was because of Nick Saban. He's getting paid. Now what.

How many TDs did Nick Saban score? How many games does Saban win without players like that? (Ask the Dolphins)

Thanks for making my point for me though. Alabama is really raking in the dough on the backs of their football team. Hard to believe a state like Alabama would participate in the sanctioned exploitation of a work force.

kwame:It's not significant enough to make the change. Besides, the NFL isn't interested in creating a farm league. The XFL, NFL Europe...they all failed. People don't flock to games to see mediocre athletes play football.

See this hits on something I've thought for a while: Why wouldn't an NFL minor league system work? NFL Europe "failed" but ran for 16 years, and some of those teams were still pulling like 20-30k a game even in the end. The XFL had a lot of issues, but in some ways was ahead of it's time: What really doomed it was dismal TV ratings, but that was back in 2001 when Friends was still pulling a 15 rating. Wiki says a particular XFL game got a 1.5 going up against the NCAA basketball tournament...hell that's pretty much what Community does now.

I think if the NFL built from the ground up a, say, 10 team league to start, and created teams that were associated with NFL franchises in cities close to the home cities of those teams. Like Wichita gets a minor-league Chiefs team, Milwaukee get's a Packers team, etc. You try to avoid huge college towns if possible, but you also don't try to completely avoid competition by trying to schedule games in the summer or whatever. Season runs in the fall/winter, and you schedule the games on, say, Tuesday or Wednesday nights.

The biggest question is "Would such a league make money", and I think the answer is yes. If the minor league teams were associated with NFL teams; if fans thought that they might be seeing someone that could be starring for the NFL team they root for someday, they would come out to the games/it would draw a rating. It's football season anyway so you don't have to convince fans to be excited for football during baseball season, and if it's run by the NFL and it's teams you don't have to worry about competition.

ongbok:If Ingram would have put up crazy numbers at Stephen F Austin State he would have been noticed and probably picked in the first round. Steve McNair went to Alcorn State, put up crazy numbers and was drafted 3rd overall. Daunte Culpepper went to UCF and played 1 year with then when they were a D1-AA, and the next three years with them after they moved to D1 and he was drafted 11th overall.

You can cherry-pick all you want, but you know how rare that kind of success is, and you know the point I'm making. Ingram didn't win the Heisman on his own.

js34603:How many TDs did Nick Saban score? How many games does Saban win without players like that? (Ask the Dolphins)

TDs don't bring in the big bucks. Championships do. Saban has won four. At two different schools. How many college football players can you name that have won a NC at two different schools?

You're crazy if you think Saban isn't the reason that program is what it is right now.

It does work. It's college football, and part of the reason it works is because it operates very successfully independent of the NFL so all they really have to do is watch and scout. I know what you're talking about is a league that allows people to play for money, but look at how little minor league baseball players make. I don't think you'd see athletes willing to take a physical beating for that kind of money on the off chance that they get picked up by the majors. They would opt for the college option where they get national exposure, an education, and free room and board.

The system as it stands is not sustainable. You have TV networks, conferences, and schools raking in anywhere between tens and hundreds of millions of dollars every year, while the players occupy a weird space between student and employee where they're told the "value of the education" is just compensation, while being more restricted than other students (and that's not even touching the way the scholarships are arranged, that pesky little practice of oversigning, or how the NCAA prohibits legal representation at critical times), and then there's that nebulous area out there with agents, hangers-on, and rogue boosters perfectly willing to break the impermissible benefit rules and tempting the players with thousand-dollar handshakes.

There is a disparity between what the labor believes it's worth, and what they're being compensated with. And that value is dubious anyway, since half of the players on a revenue-generating team are being given every shortcut legal and some that aren't. Calling them students does not change the fact they are labor in an entertainment industry. And when the disparity between labor and capital becomes wide enough, labor will seek a change. You can moan about how it ruins the purity of the game, or how they should be grateful for the education they're given, but they will seek whatever means to redress the disparity they can.

/the day of the college athlete players' association is coming, and it won't be a minute too soon

It does work. It's college football, and part of the reason it works is because it operates very successfully independent of the NFL so all they really have to do is watch and scout. I know what you're talking about is a league that allows people to play for money, but look at how little minor league baseball players make. I don't think you'd see athletes willing to take a physical beating for that kind of money on the off chance that they get picked up by the majors. They would opt for the college option where they get national exposure, an education, and free room and board.

I like how kwame argues for the current NCAA system. It's funny because kwame is obviously a shill. No reasonable person would arrive at the points kwame makes unless they were being paid by or aleady have a vested interest in the system they are defending.

/notice how kwame was the Boobieser? Ready to white knight from the start.

ongbok:The NFL had the NFL Europe, but with the NFL it was more of a physical development thing. Socially the idea of possibly having an 18 year old getting his lights knocked out by somebody 5-10 years older than him on a football field was frowned down on.

NFL Europe was not a developmental league. It was a separate pro-league used to try to expand the pressence of the NFL brand. They did have practice squad players on some of the teams, but that was not its primary purpose.

A developmental league wouldn't have 25 years olds vs 18 year olds. It would be all post-highschool athletes. And it wouldn't need to be big business and draw fans. It would be regional like minor league baseball. You could get 5,000 to watch the future Giants play the future Jets on a Saturday afternoon.

It would most likely be a few well paid hot prospects mixed with minimum paid ($80-100k per season) lower level prospects... like baseball or hockey.

Like I've said several times, it works fine all around the world.. and in the US.. but it's just the NFL and NBA have made deals with the NCAA to use them as their farm system for free.

kwame:ongbok: If Ingram would have put up crazy numbers at Stephen F Austin State he would have been noticed and probably picked in the first round. Steve McNair went to Alcorn State, put up crazy numbers and was drafted 3rd overall. Daunte Culpepper went to UCF and played 1 year with then when they were a D1-AA, and the next three years with them after they moved to D1 and he was drafted 11th overall.

You can cherry-pick all you want, but you know how rare that kind of success is, and you know the point I'm making. Ingram didn't win the Heisman on his own.

js34603: How many TDs did Nick Saban score? How many games does Saban win without players like that? (Ask the Dolphins)

TDs don't bring in the big bucks. Championships do. Saban has won four. At two different schools. How many college football players can you name that have won a NC at two different schools?

You're crazy if you think Saban isn't the reason that program is what it is right now.

You're also missing a major point. The athletes CHOOSE the school.

Saban didn't win anything without the athletes he was given for next to nothing which allowed him to make millions of dollars. Are college players free to change their minds and schools at will? No, they have to sit out a year if they transfer unless there are certain circumstances. Can college players stay in school indefinitely as long as they can play? Of course not, they have a limited window of eligibility and can only be on a team a maximum of 5 (redshirt year and 4 years) or sometimes 6 years (redshirt, medical waiver, 4 years) before they are restricted from playing further. Asking how many players have won multiple championships at different schools is a little unfair when the rules athletes operate under are much more restrictive and prevent the kinds of movement and duration of career that Saban has enjoyed.

fark the NCAA. a bunch of worthless farks. the restrictions on outside income are farking bullshiat. i'm not saying the schools need to pay the players (though if you're making hundreds of millions off cheap labor who have unique talents, labor will rightfully ask for more eventually). but if the local car dealership wants to offer a player or five some cash to do an autograph session on sunday, who does that hurt? why the fark not?

this is what the ncaa does. it's farking useless:"When [Tennessee's] women's basketball director of operations Michael Beaumont handed out cash for meals during a trip to Arkansas, he used the per diem rate for Knoxville, not Fayetteville. That meant each player received $3 more than permissible for their lunch. The solution? 'Student-athletes donated ($3) to a charity of their choice,' the university wrote."

chuggernaught:kwame: jayhawk88: Why wouldn't an NFL minor league system work?

It does work. It's college football, and part of the reason it works is because it operates very successfully independent of the NFL so all they really have to do is watch and scout. I know what you're talking about is a league that allows people to play for money, but look at how little minor league baseball players make. I don't think you'd see athletes willing to take a physical beating for that kind of money on the off chance that they get picked up by the majors. They would opt for the college option where they get national exposure, an education, and free room and board.

I like how kwame argues for the current NCAA system. It's funny because kwame is obviously a shill. No reasonable person would arrive at the points kwame makes unless they were being paid by or aleady have a vested interest in the system they are defending.

probably just works in college athletic administration and the cognitive dissonance grows overwhelming after awhile.

I'm a little confused. After all the hurt and offended and how dare they, this paragraph shows up:

However, Curtner also said that while the NCAA has "no reason to believe that its member institutions, conferences, athletic departments or coaches would take any action against a current student-athlete who chose to participate in this litigation, we must again remind you that we represent only the NCAA and cannot speak (or sign stipulations) for NCAA schools, conferences, athletic departments or coaches who are not present before the Court.

Is this a case where the sarcastic sounding headline is true? It sounds to me like, he's offended and he is making no promises that the NCAA won't go after the kid....but the SEC would say dig up dirt and get him suspended.