Dave: There is absolutely no way that there are 300,000 Armenians in Syria and Lebanon. Half of the Armenians in Lebanon have left. And more than half of the Armenians in Syria have fled.

The 40,000 - 50,000 figure for Syria is very accurate. I have relatives there, and they tell me themselves -- "Gardzes te hay che mnatsadz Haleb..." A few years ago, the church even had a "badvo yerego" in Aleppo in honor of women who have had lots of children. I know, because my grandmother was one of the honorees. They were honoring those women to encourage young Armenian women in Aleppo today to form large families, because the population has dwindled. Aleppo can't even support a daily newspaper.

Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/...ay.asp?A_ID=57)

In addition to that AGBU article, my figures are supported by an enyclopedia published in Yerevan in 2003. It's called "Hay Spiurk," and it gives information of every Armenian community in the world, by country. I was doing research at LA's Central Library, and I came across it. While I did not copy the population figures, I do remember that the book stated Lebanon's Armenian population at 120,000 and Syria's at 40-50,000.

As for half a million in Los Angeles. According to the US Census, there are 138,015 Armenian language speakers in Los Angeles County (this includes Hollywood, Valley, Glendale, Pasadena, etc). I understand there are many Armenians who do not speak Armenian. But not that many. Besides, they may be Armenian by blood (or half, or quarter), but they may not even consider themselves Armenian. I can't imagine that there are more than 300,000 Armenians in Los Angeles (and that is being generous, I think).

Arpa: What's wrong with church figures, when there are no official ones? They obviously don't count only those Armenians who attend church, or pay dues -- otherwise their figure for Istanbul would be much, much lower than 60,000, don't you agree? Holy Martyrs Church in Encino estimates there are 20,000 Armenians in the San Fernando Valley. Does that church have 20,000 dues-paying members? No. Do all 20,000 give allegiance to that church (or do some go to St. Peter's)? The fact is, the Diasporan church figures are probably accurate, because the churches need accurate figures to know just what is the population that they are serving. I think that church figures probably OVERESTIMATE the real figures, because they have an interest in inflating the numbers -- the higher the number of Armenians in any given area, the more clout and power the Armenian church will have in that area.

I have many problems with your numbers and the way you interprate them.

One example is the Los Angeles figures, we know for instance that in Canada, this was calculated according to household, and was projected from it and the projection irronically did not directly take into account the direct counting of the population, but an average per household. Now, the thing is that Canada and the US use a very similar method. So, the question is..., is this figure the Armenian household, the projection, and if it is the projection, it is based on the average person per household? I need the sampling method, because I am very skeptical there.

As well as among many thing, Syria..., but I will leave it at that.

QUOTE (Gor-Gor @ Jan 29 2006, 06:43 AM)

Dave: There is absolutely no way that there are 300,000 Armenians in Syria and Lebanon. Half of the Armenians in Lebanon have left. And more than half of the Armenians in Syria have fled.

The 40,000 - 50,000 figure for Syria is very accurate. I have relatives there, and they tell me themselves -- "Gardzes te hay che mnatsadz Haleb..." A few years ago, the church even had a "badvo yerego" in Aleppo in honor of women who have had lots of children. I know, because my grandmother was one of the honorees. They were honoring those women to encourage young Armenian women in Aleppo today to form large families, because the population has dwindled. Aleppo can't even support a daily newspaper.

Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/...ay.asp?A_ID=57)

In addition to that AGBU article, my figures are supported by an enyclopedia published in Yerevan in 2003. It's called "Hay Spiurk," and it gives information of every Armenian community in the world, by country. I was doing research at LA's Central Library, and I came across it. While I did not copy the population figures, I do remember that the book stated Lebanon's Armenian population at 120,000 and Syria's at 40-50,000.

As for half a million in Los Angeles. According to the US Census, there are 138,015 Armenian language speakers in Los Angeles County (this includes Hollywood, Valley, Glendale, Pasadena, etc). I understand there are many Armenians who do not speak Armenian. But not that many. Besides, they may be Armenian by blood (or half, or quarter), but they may not even consider themselves Armenian. I can't imagine that there are more than 300,000 Armenians in Los Angeles (and that is being generous, I think).

Arpa: What's wrong with church figures, when there are no official ones? They obviously don't count only those Armenians who attend church, or pay dues -- otherwise their figure for Istanbul would be much, much lower than 60,000, don't you agree? Holy Martyrs Church in Encino estimates there are 20,000 Armenians in the San Fernando Valley. Does that church have 20,000 dues-paying members? No. Do all 20,000 give allegiance to that church (or do some go to St. Peter's)? The fact is, the Diasporan church figures are probably accurate, because the churches need accurate figures to know just what is the population that they are serving. I think that church figures probably OVERESTIMATE the real figures, because they have an interest in inflating the numbers -- the higher the number of Armenians in any given area, the more clout and power the Armenian church will have in that area.

I have checked, it is actually a census, but not about the number of Armenians, but rather the language spoken at home from age 5 to over. The census for 2000 is 385,488 for the entire USA, but from the data, it seem that people with two encestories are clearly undercounted. But it is clear thought, that the Armenian population in the US is not near 1 million unlike what is claimed by some.

Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/...ay.asp?A_ID=57)

I've read that 40% claim too. It's really a shame, considering the fact that the community of Lebanon (where I'm from) is an experienced one, where Armenians stick to each other.

Dave: It was very, very sad for me to read that statistic. I had always held out hope, that even if Armenians in the rest of the world assimilated, the Armenians in Lebanon and Syria would not. It was a shock for me to discover that this wasn't true.

(My family is from Syria, by the way. I did visit Beirut though, in 2001.)

I guess the more westernized a country becomes, the more quickly Armenians there will assimilate. The US, South America, Russia, and Europe are hopeless for us. Even Turkey (Istanbul is practically European). I guess we can add Lebanon to that list now, too.

I guess Syria and Iran are our only Diasporan communities with real prospects of longevity.

The more an ethnic group is persecuted, the more they are inclined to stick together. That was the case in most of the Ottoman cities (either historically Armenian, or non-Armenian), where Armenians had to obey Islamic law.

The more an ethnic group is persecuted, the more they are inclined to stick together. That was the case in most of the Ottoman cities (either historically Armenian, or non-Armenian), where Armenians had to obey Islamic law.

Dave; it's not just persecution. In my opinion, Armenians don't assimilate with non Christians; such as Arabs and moslems, because it is taboo to marry them. At least that's how it was 20+ years ago. Maybe things are changing now. Anyhow, Lebanese people I believe, they are not all Arabs, but mixed some with Armenians, Greeks and somewhat Europeans too. They are much more Europeanized than Syrians or from other Arab countries. That may be the reason as well.

Also, when I said 20+ years ago that's how it was; I was referring to what my parents used to tell me, at least how things were in Egypt. Don't know that much about Lebanon or Syria; but I assumed they would be similar, because they're all Middle Eastern countries, and I thought that Armenians wouldn't want to assimilate much with Arabs and moslems.

That is known as the terminal disease of the weak, small, dying, almost extinct cultures.Bigger and more robust cultures have no problem marrying out of heir cultures. Only the weak and dying abhor it. Not without good reason.Specially in those countries where marrying out of one’s religion and culture is a one way street. The reasons may be that those other religions consider apostasy, conversion as capital sins punishable by death however in the Armenian case the notion the xenophobic attitude that an Armenian is one who is born such, all other candidate need not apply. How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?Will be accept them? Or will they forever be: Meet my wife, husband. Her name is Colleen, she is Irish. Or, my husband Mohammed, he is Moslem ?When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???

I know of one specific a very pretty a very gracious and a smart English Canadian woman who intermarried with an Armenian fellow also distinguished himself. She would bring her children to our Armenian Center out of love and of respect to her husband. She was the only one that I could remember. Unlike almost all of the French Canadian women practically degenerates, she was the only classy woman that stood out as being a true credit to her gender.

In here in the United States, I know two other American women that are involved themselves with Armenians and Garmir Khatch and they also bring their children to Armenian Centers and to Armenian schools. But they are rarety, I'm afraid.

How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?Will be accept them? Or will they forever be: Meet my wife, husband. Her name is Colleen, she is Irish. Or, my husband Mohammed, he is Moslem ?When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???

Armenians won't premit it. Even if we exclude moslems & jews and we only consider inter-christian marriages, Armenian families aren't likely to accept the 'otar' wife/husband. Armenians often don't like to 'share' their culture - they will certainly be proud of it, but more often then not, Armenians regard their culture as a commodity onto which they wish to hold exclusive rights. The otar new comer to the family sadly doesn't have the right to share in that commodity - and if we're aiming for growth in diaspora, we must be more inclusive and create the community structures that not only accept mixed marriage, but help bring the otars of mixed marriages "into the fold" - so they can also be part of the Armenian culture.

QUOTE(Anahid Takouhi @ Feb 3 2006, 05:45 PM)

I know of one specific a very pretty a very gracious and a smart English Canadian woman who intermarried with an Armenian fellow also distinguished himself. She would bring her children to our Armenian Center out of love and of respect to her husband. She was the only one that I could remember. Unlike almost all of the French Canadian women practically degenerates, she was the only classy woman that stood out as being a true credit to her gender.

What is this about French Canadian women being degenerates?? Very strange - I know only two 'French Canadian' women who are involved with Armenians, but both of them are strong supporters of Armenian and Armenian culture. One, in fact, has been to Armenia 6 times already - she even helps run tours for other 'otars' married to Armenians! But I won't use one simple example to make a crazy generalization. I just don't get the point of your post Takuhi jan...