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J.R. Smith re-signs with Knicks at, like, 2 in the morning.

As our good friend Seth Rosenthal, Vicar of the Posting and Toasting Manor, put it earlier this morning on Twitter: “Of course J.R. Smith re-signed while I was sleeping.”

Indeed, multiple sour mixes have confirmed that Smith will return to the Knicks, who stand to pay the streaky-shooting wing $2.8 million — the absolute most the cash-strapped Bocker’s could muster — with a player option for the second year.

News of the signing broke just as James Dolan was finishing a blistering JD & The Straight Shot set at the Hard Rock Cafe by smashing his guitar, which sprayed thousand dollar bills into the crowd of 19.

After spending a good chunk of last fall and the early part of the lockout-shortened NBA season over in China, Smith returned stateside in February — at the height of Linsanity — and became an immediate contributor off the bench. His propensity for shenanigans both curricular and extra-so made him an easy target. But his improved defense, hustle, and seemingly genuine affinity for the Big Apple also managed to endear him, as did any night when the 21-foot fade-away jumpers were actually falling.

It should also be noted that Smith’s signing came no more than eight hours after the Knicks had inked Steve Novak to a four-year, $15 million offer. Smith was one of the first to publicly congratulate Novak, who at times seemed to be the only person on the floor J.R. actually looked to pass to. (According to NBA.com, Smith dished Novak the second most dimes, behind only Jeremy Lin.)

With the Knicks still in significant need of able-bodied wings, Smith’s signing — while just shy a forgone conclusion to most — helps fill an immediate need for the orange and blue, who stand to be without the services of Iman Shumpert until at least January.

As many have pointed out, Smith’s lollygagging amidst a flurry of — how do I say this? — really awful contracts across the league did more than anything to assure the Knicks could get a good deal, the logic being that Smith could have accepted slightly better offers, instead of assuming the Knicks would overpay. Which, lets face it, isn’t exactly hitting on 19.

Say what you will about the man, at $2.8 million, it’s hard to argue he’s not a bargain. As things stand, he might even be starting come late October, a prospect that will send as many shivers as shits up people’s spines, no doubt.

We still need another guard… and i am not sure who’s available. In the end, we’ll match Field’s offer, even if it bites Dolan’s pocket. The downside is that he is untradable for the following years (well, maybe in the last one when expiring).

JR can drive you crazy at the offensive end (how many times have I screamed at the TV when he shoots a step back from 3 inches in front of the 3 point line?) but one thing I was impressed with last season was his commitment on the defensive end. That’s a big plus, and with he and Shump (eventually) sharing the off guard position, we’ll have solid D for 48 minutes at both the 5 and the 2 positions, which is pretty damn nice.

I think last year we saw JR at his worst (offensively at least). Down year from three, often playing with no real PG on the floor, so many possessions spent dribbling the air out of the ball before launching unconscionable shots… and yet, his defense was better than I think anyone expected and on the balance he earned another shot and $2.8 million. I mean, how much would you pay a taller Nate Robinson who could guard 3 positions? About that much, I’d say.

But if we have any sort of roster stability and consistent PG play he seems like the kind of player who could break out for a monster year. If he doesn’t have to handle the ball and create all
his own shots, and if he can get back into the high 30s from 3, he could be seeing a lot of minutes and posting a TS of around .580 (which he’s done before). That would be absolutely huge for the Knicks (and would probably mean we could no longer afford him, but…). Very tantalizing possibility. Of course he could also have a total meltdown but I prefer to remain optimistic for once.

errkgolub:
Was it reported correctly by ESPN that JR will get early Bird Rights next offseason?

Yes. Smith could sign an Early Bird contract next off-season. Assuming league average salary remains the same, he could sign for up to $5.3 million in the first year. The rub is that an Early Bird contract must be for at least two years, but he would have Full Bird rights after the following season. So, if Smith signed an Early Bird contract after next year, he would postpone his ability to sign an unlimited Full Bird contract by an extra year. But if he did not use his Early Bird rights, the largest contract he could sign would be a 20% raise ($3.4 million). The big choice Smith would have to make would be to come back for one more year @ $3.4 million (with a player option for the following year @$3.6 million) and try to cash in big in 2014-15 or take the Early Bird two year contract with a player option for year 3 ($5.3/$5.5/$5.7).

On a more serious note i remember a few beautiful plays in which J.R. got a lob pass while his man’s back was turned/helping on pick and roll. Don’t have a video clip but I distinctly remember that it was his man that was helping because Novak was on the other side and Novak’s man was afraid to help off him. That’s beautiful example of how to take advantage of J.R.’s combination of 3 point shooting (when he’s somewhat on) and his athleticism.

Earl…my favorite enigma..lol. Our new Starks. Yes the kid can play. Yes he’s enormously talented. But he needs to realize that great players don’t just shoot their way into stardom. Starks was just like him at one point..until discipline made him an invaluable piece of our rotation. Now eventually the wheels fell off on Starks cuz he fell in love with his outside game instead of combining it with his athletic ability and using a more balanced game. But for a few seasons Starks was incredible. What am I saying? Earl has incredible athletic gifts, a nice shot, and the ability to actually get in the lane. And he’s no slouch on defense. Much like Starks. Earl needs to find that discipline to take advantage of his gifts and accept his role. Even still..2.8 is a bargain for his contributions. Jason Terry could have started for many teams..but he accepted his role and disciplined himself enough to flourish in it in Dallas. And he still averaged almost 20 a game. And I think it’s safe to say Earl has more gifts than Terry. I hope Earl finds that discipline this season. I am glad he’s returning and if he finds his spot as a Knick- he’s gonna be incredible. But NBA fans and analysts have been sayin that for years about him. Let’s hope he’s finally listening. Woodson seems to have his ear when it comes to accountability and professionalism..so maybe he pushes the right buttons with him this season.

yes- for all the talk about how we overpaid for Kidd and Camby (ridiculous talk IMHO), getting JR at 2.8M is an absolute steal. He’s a much better player than Jason Terry at this point in Terry’s career, and Jet got the full MLE from Boston.

ephus: Yes.Smith could sign an Early Bird contract next off-season.Assuming league average salary remains the same, he could sign for up to $5.3 million in the first year. The rub is that an Early Bird contract must be for at least two years, but he would have Full Bird rights after the following season.So, if Smith signed an Early Bird contract after next year, he would postpone his ability to sign an unlimited Full Bird contract by an extra year.But if he did not use his Early Bird rights, the largest contract he could sign would be a 20% raise ($3.4 million).The big choice Smith would have to make would be to come back for one more year @ $3.4 million (with a player option for the following year @$3.6 million) and try to cash in big in 2014-15 or take the Early Bird two year contract with a player option for year 3 ($5.3/$5.5/$5.7).

flossy: But if we have any sort of roster stability and consistent PG play he seems like the kind of player who could break out for a monster year.

This is correct. Think of the specialized pieces on this team and how they fit together. OK there are some VERY tough teams out there but I gotta hand it to our man Glen. Everything that was WRONG last year he has addressed. Ball handling, depth, etc. How will it work out? I know we were all mugged by HE WHO SHAN’T BE NAMED but allow yourself a vision where everyone on this team has a career year.

ephus: So, if Smith signed an Early Bird contract after next year, he would postpone his ability to sign an unlimited Full Bird contract by an extra year. But if he did not use his Early Bird rights, the largest contract he could sign would be a 20% raise ($3.4 million). The big choice Smith would have to make would be to come back for one more year @ $3.4 million (with a player option for the following year @$3.6 million) and try to cash in big in 2014-15 or take the Early Bird two year contract with a player option for year 3 ($5.3/$5.5/$5.7).

I think your last option is probably the most likely. After getting underpaid 2 years in a row, I don’t think he would risk another year of underpayment even with a 20% raise. I don’t think JR will ever be more than a full MLE kind of guy, so he should probably take what he can get while he can get it. he really is doing us a big favor taking this deal, although I am sure there is a *wink wink* CAA deal here.

Frank: I think your last option is probably the most likely. After getting underpaid 2 years in a row, I don’t think he would risk another year of underpayment even with a 20% raise. I don’t think JR will ever be more than a full MLE kind of guy, so he should probably take what he can get while he can get it. he really is doing us a big favor taking this deal, although I am sure there is a *wink wink* CAA deal here.

I would not want to make a living based upon predicting what JR Smith will do 12 minutes into the future, let alone 12 months. If he has a strong season, the Knicks could certainly be outbid by a team with cap space. They no longer can be outbid by a team using the MLE.

The problems that would come from JR Smith outplaying the MLE are the one I hope we are all writing about in the future.

Yeah yeah Grunwald deserves an A+ for all his business this off season. But I still can’t believe how he never even tried to make a pitch to Ray Allen. We could have offered him more money. A line up of Lin/Kidd, JR/Allen, Melo, Novak, Amare, would have rained threes like rain and the floor spacing would have been unprecedented. Seriously just for that Grunwald should get a B+

This is what i love about this ridiculous monster trade of DH12 to BKN that will never happen. From the mothership:

“Further hurdles exist in that Lopez, Humphries, James, Williams, Johnson and Gaines would all have to agree to sign-and-trades to move them.”

So basically all any team has to do to block this is to sign one of these guys to an offer sheet. If I’m Indiana and I have a little bit of cap space left, I do that in 2 seconds. Sign Shelden Williams to a deal that is 500K more than the minimum. Peanuts to Indy, but would terribly cripple the Nets, who will be one of their major competitors in the eastern conference.

Or better yet – if I’m Atlanta and am now below the cap, I threaten to blow up the whole thing by signing these guys, thereby increasing my own leverage for a DH12 trade to ATL – sort of a Toronto/Fields-like move that actually has some teeth to it.

Assuming JR takes that deal next year – 3 years16.5 mil – which seems like a reasonable assumption, the team we have this year is the team we’ll have for the next few years. I know someone used the word stability on a previous thread. That’s not a work associated with the Knicks since … 1998 ???. I like it. Time to grow, bond, understand your role – which can only help JR. Also like that all the contracts will end in a similar time frame, 2015 or 16. Makes it so much easier to reload either by trading expirings or just getting cap space again. No extended tear down ala Donnie Walsh required.

I agree with Frank that the DH12 trade to the Nets has a low probobility of getting done, but I’m actually rooting for it to go through anyway. I would love the Nets and Knicks to be good at the same time. A competitive rivalry – Howard vs Chandler, Lin vs Williams, battles in the playoffs – it would make NY rock.

Gideon Zaga:
Yeah yeah Grunwald deserves an A+ for all his business this off season. But I still can’t believe how he never even tried to make a pitch to Ray Allen. We could have offered him more money. A line up of Lin/Kidd, JR/Allen, Melo, Novak, Amare, would have rained threes like rain and the floor spacing would have been unprecedented. Seriously just for that Grunwald should get a B+

I don’t think it’s realistic to think we ever had a shot at him. For one thing we couldn’t have offered him more than the mini-midlevel he got from Miami without Boston signing and trading him here, right? Not going to happen, esspecially because they wanted to resign him themselves. They weren’t going to facilitate him coming here. On top of that he clearly wasn’t about the money. He had offers for significantly more than what Miami gave him, including one with the Celtics. He was chasing another ring, and I don’t think even our most optimistic posters can claim that we offer anywhere near the same kind of opportunity as Miami in that respect.

gjknick:
I agree with Frank that the DH12 trade to the Nets has a low probobility of getting done, but I’m actually rooting for it to go through anyway. I would love the Nets and Knicks to be good at the same time. A competitive rivalry – Howard vs Chandler, Lin vs Williams, battles in the playoffs – it would make NY rock.

Um, I’d like them to be good at the same time too, but not a situation in which they are better than us. There’s no point to that – we’d probably never get home court advantage in the playoffs while DWill/JJ/Howard are playing together.

Another thought about Landry – we have JR ready to start the season at the 2. Shump should be back before long and if fully healthy, that would be a great combo. But as insurance in case Shump has a set back, is matching Landry that bad of an idea? He can back up the 2 and the 3. There’s at least some hope he shoots better than last year. Also, it doesn’t cost us anything except Dolan dollars, right? No loss of flexiblity going forward -we’re already capped out for the 3 years the contract is for. It ends at the same time as Melo, Amare, TC, and Lin. So we get our flexiblity back. If Landry never gets his shot back, all he costs us is a roster spot – as the 12 guy on the bench, who cares. Tell me what I’m missing?

Frank: Um, I’d like them to be good at the same time too, but not a situation in which they are better than us. There’s no point to that – we’d probably never get home court advantage in the playoffs while DWill/JJ/Howard are playing together.

It would be tough, but I think our depth, at least this year, would be a big advantage over the course of the season.

ephus: I would not want to make a living based upon predicting what JR Smith will do 12 minutes into the future, let alone 12 months. If he has a strong season, the Knicks could certainly be outbid by a team with cap space.They no longer can be outbid by a team using the MLE.

The problems that would come from JR Smith outplaying the MLE are the one I hope we are all writing about in the future.

JR playoff run I think effectively took him out of MLE. I really hate to pencil him in at starting SG right now. Seriously can we sign Randy Foye to vet min?

gjknick:
Another thought about Landry – we have JR ready to start the season at the 2. Shump should be back before long and if fully healthy, that would be a great combo. But as insurance in case Shump has a set back, is matching Landry that bad of an idea? He can back up the 2 and the 3. There’s at least some hope he shoots better than last year. Also, it doesn’t cost us anything except Dolan dollars, right? No loss of flexiblity going forward -we’re already capped out for the 3 years the contract is for. It ends at the same time as Melo, Amare, TC, and Lin. So we get our flexiblity back. If Landry never gets his shot back, all he costs us is a roster spot – as the 12 guy on the bench, who cares. Tell me what I’m missing?

Dolan may be rich but no one likes to spend stupid money. Assuming we are 10-15MM above the tax line, Landry’s $10M in 14-15 will cost the $10M salary + $25M in luxury tax, so $35M out of Dolan’s pocket for a guy who probably deserves $2-3M. Even Dolan isn’t that rich.

I probably WOULD reach out to Landry and say we will give you a 3 year deal for $10M (with decreasing salary to minimize lux tax in 14-15) so he can stay with Lin, in NYC. He won’t take it, but it’s worth a shot.

Oh I so disagree. Allen wanted to be close to family, he has a house in Boston and guess what, New York City isn’t that far from Massachusetts. Also I think he wanted to start and Miami definitely doesn’t give him that. We could have gotten him if we had wooed him like Miami did. He could have played a bigger role on this team than on Miami.

thenamestsam: I don’t think it’s realistic to think we ever had a shot at him. For one thing we couldn’t have offered him more than the mini-midlevel he got from Miami without Boston signing and trading him here, right? Not going to happen, esspecially because they wanted to resign him themselves. They weren’t going to facilitate him coming here. On top of that he clearly wasn’t about the money. He had offers for significantly more than what Miami gave him, including one with the Celtics. He was chasing another ring, and I don’t think even our most optimistic posters can claim that we offer anywhere near the same kind of opportunity as Miami in that respect.

gjknick:
Another thought about Landry – we have JR ready to start the season at the 2. Shump should be back before long and if fully healthy, that would be a great combo. But as insurance in case Shump has a set back, is matching Landry that bad of an idea? He can back up the 2 and the 3. There’s at least some hope he shoots better than last year. Also, it doesn’t cost us anything except Dolan dollars, right? No loss of flexiblity going forward -we’re already capped out for the 3 years the contract is for. It ends at the same time as Melo, Amare, TC, and Lin. So we get our flexiblity back. If Landry never gets his shot back, all he costs us is a roster spot – as the 12 guy on the bench, who cares. Tell me what I’m missing?

Unless we get another SG, I’m still pro matching Laundry and having Knicks pay the luxury tax. I’m not shareholder, but if Knicks do match this could be nice short opportunity. I will be very surprised for Dolan to give OK to match it. Tax to much penalty to the bottom line now.

Gideon Zaga:
Oh I so disagree. Allen wanted to be close to family, he has a house in Boston and guess what, New York City isn’t that far from Massachusetts. Also I think he wanted to start and Miami definitely doesn’t give him that. We could have gotten him if we had wooed him like Miami did. He could have played a bigger role on this team than on Miami.

Where is the evidence that he wanted to be close to family? Again, he could have signed with Boston. If family was his top priority he’d be there. Sure there were rumors that he wanted to start, but again, ultimately he chose Miami in spite of the fact that Bradley is going to be out half the year and the Clips were offering him more money and presumably a starting job.

And it’s easy to say that we could have wooed him like Miami did, but that’s just not a reality. There’s a reason they got Lebron James and we got Amare Stoudamire. They have Pat Riley doing the wooing, we have Jimmy Dolan. And now they have Lebron who is a very appealing guy to play with – best player in the game and a willing and eager passer.

As Simmons and others have pointed out, the moment the Celtics were eliminated Ray Allen was practically handing out his resumee to the Heat players. The decision he ultimately makes speaks to his priorities. He wanted to win a title.

I rather sign Delonte West, Raja Bell, Pietrus, Terrance Williams, or several others. Also, I think it really depends on what the staff sees in White because the sg everyone is looking for will not have any minutes when Shump comes back.

He was schuduled to meet with the Clippers until they signed J Crawford. Come on everyone knew Boston was out of the question after they signed JET. And the family thing, of course he wanted to be family. Doesn’t he have 4 kids, 1 new born and rumor has it that one of his family doctors is in NY. All I’m saying is, if we wanted him we could have because he could have gone to the Clippers as well. And that starting spot meant a lot to him. The guy works twice as hard in practice and shootaround before games and was demoted to sixth man. He felt disrespected. Of course he would have jumped at a starting spot on a contender, on a team close to family and on a team in the same division with his former team on which he desires revenge on. And trust me, winning a ring in NY tramps winning a ring anywhere else. Winning a ring in NY is immortal. Everybody would want that except Lebron of course but he’s a wuss. Allen’s not.

thenamestsam: Where is the evidence that he wanted to be close to family? Again, he could have signed with Boston. If family was his top priority he’d be there. Sure there were rumors that he wanted to start, but again, ultimately he chose Miami in spite of the fact that Bradley is going to be out half the year and the Clips were offering him more money and presumably a starting job.

And it’s easy to say that we could have wooed him like Miami did, but that’s just not a reality. There’s a reason they got Lebron James and we got Amare Stoudamire. They have Pat Riley doing the wooing, we have Jimmy Dolan. And now they have Lebron who is a very appealing guy to play with – best player in the game and a willing and eager passer.

As Simmons and others have pointed out, the moment the Celtics were eliminated Ray Allen was practically handing out his resumee to the Heat players. The decision he ultimately makes speaks to his priorities. He wanted to win a title…

Gideon Zaga:
He was schuduled to meet with the Clippers until they signed J Crawford. Come on everyone knew Boston was out of the question after they signed JET. And the family thing, of course he wanted to be family. Doesn’t he have 4 kids, 1 new born and rumor has it that one of his family doctors is in NY. All I’m saying is, if we wanted him we could have because he could have gone to the Clippers as well. And that starting spot meant a lot to him. The guy works twice as hard in practice and shootaround before games and was demoted to sixth man. He felt disrespected. Of course he would have jumped at a starting spot on a contender, on a team close to family and on a team in the same division with his former team on which he desires revenge on. And trust me, winning a ring in NY tramps winning a ring anywhere else. Winning a ring in NY is immortal. Everybody would want that except Lebron of course but he’s a wuss. Allen’s not.

Of course. Everyone wants to win a ring in NY except Lebron. Oh, and Wade apparently. Oh, and also Nash.

Look I’m with you that winning a ring for the Knicks is something that every basketball player should strive for because it brings a kind of immortality that no other ring can. But let’s be real here, not homers. When was the last time a player took less money to come here and you heard them say something like: “I chose to come play in NY over other great options because winning a ring in NY means more than anywhere else”? It doesn’t happen. Guys don’t think that way.

As for Boston you’re saying that it was obvious he wouldn’t resign on a team whose guard situation is Rondo, Jet and Bradley out for half the year, but he would have leapt at the role offered by Lin, J.R. and Shump out half the year. I mean come on man. Take off your homer glasses.

Now that I think about it, it seems to me that, Lebron could have won a championship in Cleveland had he stayed and gotten over his mental hurdles and improved his game like he did this season. Bosh was hurt and Wade was an after thought during the finals. I mean let’s analyze both teams. I don’t think Mario Chalmers is better than Mo Williams. Wade of course is better than West/Parker combo but that combo could have easily averaged what Wade averaged in the finals this year both conference and NBA. Bosh obviously better than Verjao but the latter is such a monster on D and on the boards. And finally Big Z was better that Joel Anthony. Bigger body and a reliable jump shot. The only thing that I would made a difference but not too much difference would be the Brown and Spoelstra argument. Of course now that Spoelstra has won some people will say he’s a better coach but come on the sensible bunch know that isn’t the case. If Doc Rivers hadn’t lost Game 7 of the conference finals for his team this will be a different discussion. He defended Lebron so well but after that monster explosion of Lebron in Game 6, he panicked and decided to rather go physical with by putting Bass on him instead of the usual packing it in and forcing him to shoot jumpers. Superstars will always win you one game per series in the Playoffs all by themselves. It happens all the time. Even Melo had his and won one for us. I was reAlly disappointed in Rivers scheme. Anyhow back to the argument. So that goes for my Brown/Spo argument. I really think Lebron could have won in Cleveland and didn’t need this super team and the trouble to win it.

thenamestsam: When was the last time a player took less money to come here and you heard them say something like: “I chose to come play in NY over other great options because winning a ring in NY means more than anywhere else”? It doesn’t happen. Guys don’t think that way.

Sure he maybe took a discount to come back here, but maybe not. I agree that someone should have offered him more, but did someone? There wasn’t one murmur of interest in this guy that leaked out anywhere, and people have mentioned that the market for the secondary guys is collapsing somewhat. Plus there are still a number of decent swingman left out there.

On top of that JR has other reasons to like NY that we’ve talked about at length. His family is from here. He and Woodson really seemed to form a bond. That’s not the same as coming here because he thought winning a ring would bring him NY immortality.

thenamestsam: When was the last time a player took less money to come here and you heard them say something like: “I chose to come play in NY over other great options because winning a ring in NY means more than anywhere else”? It doesn’t happen. Guys don’t think that way.

What homer glasses? And guess what, newsflash, JR just took less money to sign here and to compete for a ring and oh so did Jason Kidd, he chose us over Dallas. And so did Camby. Nash considered this and I give it to him he’s a smart guy. Nash thought, hey I could compete for a title in Both NY and LA but my kids who are in the custody of my ex wife who also lives in LA, so I can play for a ring and also be close to the Kids? Wait where do I sign. That’s what happened. Trust me when you’re self actualized and feel like you’ve done it all, family actually starts to matter to you. And that’s why I say Allen would have come to NY had Grunwald’s team made the right pitch. And Allen’s foundation for his kid’s disease would have had more media engines to run on. No matter how you slice it, it could have been done. They just didn’t even try. B- on the Grunwald report card.

thenamestsam: Of course. Everyone wants to win a ring in NY except Lebron. Oh, and Wade apparently. Oh, and also Nash.

Look I’m with you that winning a ring for the Knicks is something that every basketball player should strive for because it brings a kind of immortality that no other ring can. But let’s be real here, not homers. When was the last time a player took less money to come here and you heard them say something like: “I chose to come play in NY over other great options because winning a ring in NY means more than anywhere else”? It doesn’t happen. Guys don’t think that way.

As for Boston you’re saying that it was obvious he wouldn’t resign on a team whose guard situation is Rondo, Jet and Bradley out for half the year, but he would have leapt at the role offered by Lin, J.R. and Shump out half the year. I mean come on man. Take off your homer glasses.

yellowboy90: Can anyone can put up some numbers on JR shooting ability?

The most important thing JR brings is his spot-up shooting. On spot-up threes, he shot 39.5%. Last year he was closer to 45% on those shots, so 40% is actually low for him. There weren’t enough attempts to gauge his shooting in other situations last season, other than his 19.4% on isolation threes. He’s normally terrible at iso threes, though. It drags his 3PT% down; Coach Woody should remove that from the offense completely. I know those off the top of my head, but I can’t get to my Synergy account right now so I can’t show his shooting historically. Ruru and Frank can, I think.

JR is absolutely the best shooter available, excepting Novak and Ray Allen.

@44 neither Camby nor Kidd took less money to come here. We offered Camby 2x what the Heat could give him and Kidd was going to get the same from us or from Dallas. ESPN cited Kidd’s love for the New York area as his reason to come here, but it wasn’t like he took less money to come and try for a title here.

I have more interest in signing young total unknowns as flyers (like James White-type guys who are just happy to be in the league, or like Lin/Novak were last year) and Mike James-type guys than in guys like Randy Foye (guys who still have something to prove). Chemistry is going to be very important for this team, and having malcontents complaining about minutes is not going to be a good situation. As has been posted 10+ times, our 9 man rotation is already set with Lin, Kidd, JR, Shump, Melo, Novak, probably JJ, Tyson, Camby. Where is there room for a guy like Randy Foye? He’s not going to be happy playing 10 min/game or less.

JC Knickfan: Come on – did any team offer him MLE? I like see it before giving him his props.

At a minimum, he could have gotten the mini-MLE (which was $300k more than he signed for) from a number of teams. Only Smith and his team at CAA know whether he could have gotten a full MLE deal elsewhere, but he did not publicly pursue it.

Gideon Zaga:
What homer glasses? And guess what, newsflash, JR just took less money to sign here and to compete for a ring and oh so did Jason Kidd, he chose us over Dallas. And so did Camby. Nash considered this and I give it to him he’s a smart guy. Nash thought, hey I could compete for a title in Both NY and LA but my kids who are in the custody of my ex wife who also lives in LA, so I can play for a ring and also be close to the Kids? Wait where do I sign. That’s what happened. Trust me when you’re self actualized and feel like you’ve done it all, family actually starts to matter to you. And that’s why I say Allen would have come to NY had Grunwald’s team made the right pitch. And Allen’s foundation for his kid’s disease would have had more media engines to run on. No matter how you slice it, it could have been done. They just didn’t even try. B- on the Grunwald report card.

Adressed JR above. Kidd actually took equal money to come here over playing with a non-contender in Dallas. That’s not what we were talking about. You said that Allen should choose NY over an obviously better chance to win a ring in Miami because winning a ring here is so much better than winning one there. That’s not the situation with Kidd. He didn’t have any comparable offers from another contender that we know of. Same deal with Camby. Miami could only offer him the minimum since Houston wasn’t interested in their pieces, and Camby has a history in NY. I’m talking about a guy who actually chose to sign here for less or equal money over other contenders because of the mystique of winning a ring in NY. Not sure it has ever happened.

SeeWhyDee77: Yea..
I think there’s no way Machado doesn’t parlay that into a roster spot. Sucks because after a season of soaking up Kidd/Lin..Machado would have been ready to play in year 2 if we grabbed him.

Take J. Lin example, he play on Dallas summer league team and parlay that into 2 offers. Both GSW and Dallas gave offers, but took he took GSW. Lin from bay area so GSW had advantage. Machado from NY so with equal contract Knicks have the advantage.

Yes, I know Houston lost all their PG so promise playing time could give them the advantage. Anyway I presume GM Glen will keep 2 roster spot open and see summer league goes. Imagine getting another hidden Gem!

Oh so you’re saying he didn’t come here to try for a title? Can you hear yourself? Why would he come here and not want to try for a championship. Kidd could also have gone to the heat ya know. They could have done S&T too.

SJK:
@44 neither Camby nor Kidd took less money to come here. We offered Camby 2x what the Heat could give him and Kidd was going to get the same from us or from Dallas. ESPN cited Kidd’s love for the New York area as his reason to come here, but it wasn’t like he took less money to come and try for a title here.

Oh so now you mention family. I thought you implied that it didn’t matter.Gideon Zaga:

Not what I said at all. I said that Allen’s decision on Miami over Boston strongly indicates that being close to Boston (for family reasons) wasn’t a big factor for him. That has nothing to do whatsoever with whether family was a factor in JR Smith’s decision. They are, after all, different people.

Gideon Zaga:
Oh so you’re saying he didn’t come here to try for a title? Can you hear yourself? Why would he come here and not want to try for a championship. Kidd could also have gone to the heat ya know. They could have done S&T too.

You’re just ranting now. Of course he wants to win a title. That is still not the same as taking less money because of the allure of winning a title specifically in NYC.

rumors are that Allen had decided to go to Miami months ago, public posturing aside. I also am not sure he’s a better option than JR Smith overall (admittedly that’s comparing an apple to an insane orange), and let’s not forget Shumpie should be back before too long, needing many SG minutes. Lin/Shumpert backed up by Smith/Kidd is a very solid guard rotation IMO.

ephus: At a minimum, he could have gotten the mini-MLE (which was $300k more than he signed for) from a number of teams.Only Smith and his team at CAA know whether he could have gotten a full MLE deal elsewhere, but he did not publicly pursue it.

My take if this would great press with JR for him to not except better deal to resign with the Knicks. I would bet that did not happen. Think about why wouldn’t he leak it? Fan would love this shit.

No, I didn’t say he didn’t come here to try for a title. I said “he didn’t take less money to come here and try for a title.” He took equal money. Like thenamestsam said, Kidd has could’ve came here or stayed in Dallas for 3 years, 9 million. He probably didn’t choose New York because of the “allure of winning a title in the Big Apple,” but instead because he likes New York City and the Knicks have a better chance of winning than Dallas – better roster in a weaker conference.

And remember that Both Allen and Kidd have already won rings. Allen is also the nba’s all time 3pt scorer. Look he didn’t need to go to Miami so bad. He could have come here. Our GM just did a poor Job of recruiting. His decision doesn’t tell anything about his family priorities. It just shows who wanted him more and how much he hates Boston.

thenamestsam: Not what I said at all. I said that Allen’s decision on Miami over Boston strongly indicates that being close to Boston (for family reasons) wasn’t a big factor for him. That has nothing to do whatsoever with whether family was a factor in JR Smith’s decision. They are, after all, different people.

I think other realistic option for the vet min are Ronnie Brewer, C.J. Miles, and Willie Green. I would not mind any of those guy. Korver my be on the blocks too but he is too expensive and is not needed. Also, there needs to be a guy capable of giving Melo relief on top 3s. Of course Melo has to keep improving and become a more consistent all around defender but he will need some breaks.

Gideon Zaga:
And remember that Both Allen and Kidd have already won rings. Allen is also the nba’s all time 3pt scorer. Look he didn’t need to go to Miami so bad. He could have come here. Our GM just did a poor Job of recruiting. His decision doesn’t tell anything about his family priorities. It just shows who wanted him more and how much he hates Boston.

Okay. I guess we should just leave it here. It doesn’t seem like either of us is being convinced, and obviously there’s no way to know for sure what happens in an alternate universe where we actually go after him.

As Knicks fans we tend to think the NBA universe revolves around us. But you’d think the rejection by Lebron and Wade and then Nash would have dampened that somewhat, but apparently it hasn’t. NY is an appealing destination, no one denies that. It’s the best city in the world, the team has great, knowledgeable fans who will elevate you to truly legendary status if you win, and media and endorsement opportunities are second to none. But let’s look in the mirror a bit too: We have one of the worst owners in sports. We’ve won one playoff game in the past decade+. The fans, as great as they are when the teams up, have become jaded to some extent and aren’t exactly supportive when the team struggles. Fail to deliver a chip and to a certain segment of the fans you become a villain. Are we a great FA destination? Yes, absolutely. Are we far and away the best and anyone would be crazy not to come here if we want them? No, and in my opinion you’re in denial if you think that. Both LA and Miami are clearly at least on a level with NY in the eyes of most players.

That would be great, Frank. But all we really need is for Kris Humphries to not listen to/fire his agent who’s trying to screw him to help his bigger client.

Or better yet – if I’m Atlanta and am now below the cap, I threaten to blow up the whole thing by signing these guys, thereby increasing my own leverage for a DH12 trade to ATL – sort of a Toronto/Fields-like move that actually has some teeth to it.

I really like the team the Knicks have assembled. Top 3 in the east.
Now it’s up to the coach to make it work.
I’m very excited.
Who are we sending to the summer league? Our young guys are hurt and we have a bunch of old dudes.

BTW, so glad to see TD gone. Not only because I can’t bear his indecision anymore, but because I think he will benefit from a new start.
I liked Jorts, but he was barely a rotation guy, and JJ at 26 is too much of a project.

In basketball, unlike baseball, it’s not just an issue of spending stupid money. if you overpay someone and he’s not critical to the core of the team, you’ll have lots of trouble moving him. Bad contracts, especially one this bad, are difficult to move should we want to trade Fields over the next 3 years.

Dolan may be rich but no one likes to spend stupid money. Assuming we are 10-15MM above the tax line, Landry’s $10M in 14-15 will cost the $10M salary + $25M in luxury tax, so $35M out of Dolan’s pocket for a guy who probably deserves $2-3M. Even Dolan isn’t that rich.

In other words, paying for a really bad contract for a mediocre player is bad for flexibility irrespective of whether or not you’re above the cap anyway. Unless you’re a thousand percent sure you’d want him on your team for the next 2 years (third year it would become expiring) it’s bad to give out bad contract.

yeah, I don’t think anyone rational doubts that Fields will be going to Toronto (assuming they don’t come to their senses and try to pull the offer), and we can throw him a goodbye party later this week.

Under the new CBA, expiring contracts are going to be less valuable because the length of contracts is going down. There will be no more six year contracts and five year contracts are limited to teams exercising Full Bird rights on their own players. Most bad contracts will be limited to four years in duration. Ordinarily, a team does not realize it has signed a bad deal until at least two years in (Al Harrington in Denver is the exception that proves the rule).

So, an expiring contract will ordinarily be a ticket to jettison only one extra year of a bad contract.

Non-guranteed contracts, on the other hand, are proving to be extremely valuable. By trading for a non-guaranteed contract, a team immediately gets out from under a mistake. I expect that teams will try to tack non-guaranteed years on to the end of all contracts where the team holds the leverage over the player.

So, what UFA guards are available for the vet’s minimum or a S&T involving Gadzuric for about $2m?

Not advocating for anyone, but just perusing NBA.com’s list for guys who might be open to a low $ deal…

1. James Anderson (SAS) — a shooter who hasn’t shot
2. Marco Belineli (NO) — not sure what his market is
3. Aaron Brooks (PHO) — should be amenable to a “prove it” deal
4. Ray Felton (POR) — as a #3 guard on for the vet min, sure
5. Randy Foye (LAC) — could be the best fit, but may want big $
6. Lester Hudson (MEM) — umm… no thanks
7. Royal Ivey (OKC) — Maynor’s return could force him out
8. John Lucas, III (CHI) — Hinrich & Teague could force him out
9. AJ Price (IND) — never liked him, but he could fit as #3 guard
10. Nate Robinson (GS) — imagine he wants to re-sign in GS
11. Ramon Sessions (LAL) — Lakers could be open to a S&T
12. Delonte West (DAL) — expect him to re-sign with the Cubans

** I didn’t include Lou Williams or Jerryd Bayless, UFAs who are likely out of NY’s price range.

Not that he would agree to a $2 million deal, but Aaron Brooks cannot be used in a S&T because he did not play for the Suns last season. This is one of the changes in the new CBA, designed to avoid the folly of Keith Van Horn being pulled out of retirement to be included in the Jason Kidd trade.

Glad to see JR coming back at such a reasonable price. This is exactly why the Knicks should not match the offer to Fields. At around 6.7 million per year, Landry is now substantially overpaid for his production.

Landry is an average NBA player at best. Why would you give an average player a starting salary well above the NBA’s average salary (about 5.2 million)? Landry’s best quality over the last two years was his price. I like an average NBA player at well below market price. I do not like one well above market price.

Maybe Toronto thinks he has a shot to become much better. I just don’t see all that much more room for improvement.

Thanks for the memories Landry and that reality show I never watched. Hope you enjoy speed dating in Toronto.

Blair would be a great pickup both as Amare’s back up and insurance against anything happening to Chandler or Camby since odds are they will miss at least a little time to injury.

I know I’m in the minority but we really need to think about matching Fields’s offer. Who cares if we is getting paid double what he’s worth. He will help us a lot more than anyone we can get at the minimum and he is an improving defender and a good passer even if his shot never comes back. If his shot comes back and if Shump is able to fully recover by next summer then we just let JR walk after this season and our rotation doesn’t get too clogged.

Shump is probably going to miss at least half the season and then how healthy and productive he is after that is still up in the air. We need to have a good rotation without Shump because at this point anything production we get out of him this season is a gift.

From ESPN.com – “Magic talking to other teams, not just Nets, about Dwight Howard”

Wow, there’s a shocker! You mean Orlando management isn’t going to jump all over getting Brook Lopez and a bunch of 1st round picks in the 20-30 range? What could they possibly be thinking? Oh, wait, I forgot, they get Luke Walton and Shelden Williams too, that makes the Nets deal a complete no-brainer, why bother exploring any other options?

Thomas B.:
Glad to see JR coming back at such a reasonable price.This is exactly why the Knicks should not match the offer to Fields.At around 6.7 million per year, Landry is now substantially overpaid for his production.

I’m not sure TOR won’t ultimately pull that offer, which was obviously intended to scuttle a Nash S&T.

Ben R: Blair would be a great pickup both as Amare’s back up and insurance against anything happening to Chandler or Camby since odds are they will miss at least a little time to injury.

I know I’m in the minority but we really need to think about matching Fields’s offer. Who cares if we is getting paid double what he’s worth. He will help us a lot more than anyone we can get at the minimum and he is an improving defender and a good passer even if his shot never comes back. If his shot comes back and if Shump is able to fully recover by next summer then we just let JR walk after this season and our rotation doesn’t get too clogged.

Shump is probably going to miss at least half the season and then how healthy and productive he is after that is still up in the air. We need to have a good rotation without Shump because at this point anything production we get out of him this season is a gift.

Huh?

Fields is a league minimum caliber player right now, with, sure, some upside. But you can find those guys every year pretty cheap. The Knicks will probably sign one to back-up junior.

I wouldn’t mind if Shump just took the entire season to get ready. DOn’t rush the kneee. Get it healthy. Work on the jumper. Work on the jumper. Work on the jumper. His offense was really bad last year. Love the defense, but his shot was just awful. At times he reminded me of Roger Mason Jr.’s stint with the Knicks.

Thomas B.:
I wouldn’t mind if Shump just took the entire season to get ready.DOn’t rush the kneee. Get it healthy. Work on the jumper.Work on the jumper.Work on the jumper.His offense was really bad last year.Love the defense, but his shot was just awful.At times he reminded me of Roger Mason Jr.’s stint with the Knicks.

Shump’s season was uncomfortably similar in appearance to Mardy Collins time in NY.

Fields is a league minimum caliber player right now, with, sure, some upside. But you can find those guys every year pretty cheap. The Knicks will probably sign one to back-up junior.

Oh, and he’s not a two guard.

How is Fields not a 2 guard. He has played the two since entering the league. His rookie year he was more of a three but last year he was playing like a two guard, his defense has improved to the point of being above average and so is his rebounding and passing. His shot is a huge question mark but it certainly has to be better than last year, it be worse. Also I don’t want to find someone to back up JR, I want to find someone for JR to back up.

JR is a talented player but he is much better as an instant offense off the bench player who you can play lots when he’s hot and a little when he’s cold. He is a lot like Crawford, great off the bench where you can manage his minutes and limit the damage his frequent bad games cause and take advantage of the great games he does have.

Gideon Zaga:
What homer glasses? And guess what, newsflash, JR just took less money to sign here and to compete for a ring and oh so did Jason Kidd, he chose us over Dallas. And so did Camby. Nash considered this and I give it to him he’s a smart guy. Nash thought, hey I could compete for a title in Both NY and LA but my kids who are in the custody of my ex wife who also lives in LA, so I can play for a ring and also be close to the Kids? Wait where do I sign. That’s what happened. Trust me when you’re self actualized and feel like you’ve done it all, family actually starts to matter to you. And that’s why I say Allen would have come to NY had Grunwald’s team made the right pitch. And Allen’s foundation for his kid’s disease would have had more media engines to run on. No matter how you slice it, it could have been done. They just didn’t even try. B- on the Grunwald report card.

JR is boys with melo and likes being in NY, so he was always coming back. That’s why they didn’t go after Allen.

yellowboy90:
I think other realistic option for the vet min are Ronnie Brewer, C.J. Miles, and Willie Green. I would not mind any of those guy. Korver my be on the blocks too but he is too expensive and is not needed. Also, there needs to be a guy capable of giving Melo relief on top 3s. Of course Melo has to keep improving and become a more consistent all around defender but he will need some breaks.

I’m hoping James White can fill that role for 10 mins a night. I’m guessing that’s why they’re taking a shot on him.

2FOR18: JR is boys with melo and likes being in NY, so he was always coming back. That’s why they didn’t go after Allen.

Exactly. There was a lot of *wink wink* going on with JR for sure. My guess is that the Knicks and JR have an “understanding” – not a “deal” or a “promise” – that they wouldn’t chase a prominent 2 and that they will give him a bigger contract at the end of this year assuming he doesn’t completely implode or get injured.

ruruland:
So, wait, it was possible all along for the Knicks to build a really good team around Melo/Amare without a ton of cap room and draft picks?

Who here ever imagined such a thing could happen?

Chandler,Camby,Kidd,Smith, the best 3pt shooter in the NBA, extremely promising young backcourt?? I” admit, that’s better than even the most optimistic folks could have ever hoped for.

Slow your roll. The team still hasn’t accomplished anything yet where it counts, and the whole thing falls apart if Lin gets hurt or does the pumpkin thing.
You’ve only been a Knicks fan for 6 months, so you have no idea what kind of terror awaits you.

2FOR18: Slow your roll.The team still hasn’t accomplished anything yet where it counts, and the whole thing falls apart if Lin gets hurt or does the pumpkin thing.
You’ve only been a Knicks fan for 6 months, so you have no idea what kind of terror awaits you.

but he is totally right in mocking the people who argued endlessly that the Melo deal would leave us unable to add talent around him and Amare. no matter what happens going forward, Grunwald has certainly been able to do that.

Frank: Dolan may be rich but no one likes to spend stupid money. Assuming we are 10-15MM above the tax line, Landry’s $10M in 14-15 will cost the $10M salary + $25M in luxury tax, so $35M out of Dolan’s pocket for a guy who probably deserves $2-3M. Even Dolan isn’t that rich.I probably WOULD reach out to Landry and say we will give you a 3 year deal for $10M (with decreasing salary to minimize lux tax in 14-15) so he can stay with Lin, in NYC. He won’t take it, but it’s worth a shot.

Woooooo! Didn’t realize the tax hit would be that high. Again, I don’t really care much about Jimmy’s $$$, but I would have to assume even he wouldn’t sign off on paying Landry more than double what LeBron’s making. Oh well, as a player I think he would still be a good fit on the team. Fits a role, if he doesn’t work out, when Shump comes back he could sit on the bench and be a good cheerleader. An offseason where we keep Lin, JR, Novak and add Kidd and Camby but lose Landry and TD – I can live with that :)

Ben R: How is Fields not a 2 guard. He has played the two since entering the league. His rookie year he was more of a three but last year he was playing like a two guard, his defense has improved to the point of being above average and so is his rebounding and passing. His shot is a huge question mark but it certainly has to be better than last year, it be worse. Also I don’t want to find someone to back up JR, I want to find someone for JR to back up. JR is a talented player but he is much better as an instant offense off the bench player who you can play lots when he’s hot and a little when he’s cold. He is a lot like Crawford, great off the bench where you can manage his minutes and limit the damage his frequent bad games cause and take advantage of the great games he does have.

Agree on JR, but ruru’s right about Landry. He’s a natural 3. He’s been playing the two since he entered the league because he’s simply too productive to put on the bench and we already had Gallinari and then Carmelo.

Our two best lineups last season by plus/minus featured Fields at the three.

David Crockett: Shump’s season was uncomfortably similar in appearance to Mardy Collins time in NY.

Wow. The worst thing about Collins was how deceptively bad he was. There was a time near the end of his rookie season I think, when he was putting up near triple doubles (yay)but shooting 32 from the floor with 5-6 turnovers to get there (I’m sorry what was that?).
Here was a good example of what I mean.http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200704070MIL.html
19pts, 12 rbs, 8 ast, 5 stls.. Nice right? Then you notice efg% .382 with 7 turnovers. And that it came against the 26-50 Bucks who had Charlie Bell and Earl Boykins running the point.

iserp:
We still need another guard… and i am not sure who’s available. In the end, we’ll match Field’s offer, even if it bites Dolan’s pocket. The downside is that he is untradable for the following years (well, maybe in the last one when expiring).

kyle korver would be the best fit n see if ronnie would come too for vets min

jon abbey: but he is totally right in mocking the people who argued endlessly that the Melo deal would leave us unable to add talent around him and Amare. no matter what happens going forward, Grunwald has certainly been able to do that.

GG has added players. I’m going to wait and see how much “talent” was added.

jon abbey: but he is totally right in mocking the people who argued endlessly that the Melo deal would leave us unable to add talent around him and Amare. no matter what happens going forward, Grunwald has certainly been able to do that.

Yeah but he’s holding parades. Let’s get out of the first round first.

David, you know any metric that says Shump is anything like Collins is a stupid, flawed, Berri-esque, THCJ sized pile of worthless hooey. Therefore that stat has to be ignored. Serioulsy dude, what were you thinking? :-)

Thomas B.: David, you know any metric that says Shump is anything like Collins is a stupid, flawed, Berri-esque, THCJ sized pile of worthless hooey.Therefore that stat has to be ignored.Serioulsy dude, what were you thinking? :-)

Did you even click the link Thomas? These are just traditional per 36 numbers for their respective rookie seasons (age 21 for Shump, 22 for Collins). Just shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and steals.

I LOVE Shump too y’all, but damn. He is an exceptionally bad shooter (TS% .484 for Shump, .445 for Collins); and was a bad shooter for 3 years at Ga Tech. That’s just a fact. Whether you’re Dave Berri or Charles Barkley, you have to concede that.

I think you guys are just forgetting what a quality defender Mardy Collins was. He played on terrible defensive teams, so those contributions got lost and all we remember is the shooting.

2FOR18: Yeah but he’s holding parades.Let’s get out of the first round first.

Aside from this, it’s a fine line… what would the picture look like without Chandler and Lin?

There’s been no one else remotely like him on the market, and without Chandler we’d have had a defense in the mid-20s, to go with our below-average offense last year.

And without Lin we’d be arguing over whether Jason Kidd or Ray Felton should be starting.

Goes to show that in the NBA it only takes one or maybe two great decision, or one great piece of luck, to change everything. Bryan Colangelo made a career out of drafting Stoudemire and convincing Nash to come to Phoenix – he might have the worst resume of any GM in the league but we still think of him as smart.

David Crockett: Did you even click the link Thomas? These are just traditional per 36 numbers for their respective rookie seasons (age 21 for Shump, 22 for Collins). Just shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and steals.

I LOVE Shump too y’all, but damn. He is an exceptionally bad shooter (TS% .484 for Shump, .445 for Collins); and was a bad shooter for 3 years at Ga Tech. That’s just a fact. Whether you’re Dave Berri or Charles Barkley, you have to concede that.

I think you guys are just forgetting what a quality defender Mardy Collins was. He played on terrible defensive teams, so those contributions got lost and all we remember is the shooting.

It’s fair to post, and the #s are similar on the surface, but I don’t really think they’re similar players. I also don’t think Mardy Collins was all that good a defender – even three years older, he wasn’t anywhere near as good as Shump. He also didn’t have any kind of a handle, and shot 58 percent on his FTs. Shump almost cracked 80, which makes me think he could eventually be a decent shooter.

Shumpert was a game-changing defender and an improving offensive player over the course of the season (check his first half vs. second half numbers). Collins was a fringe player who was out of the league very quickly. Shumpert will be around for a decade-plus if he stays healthy, and has All-Star upside. Collins, not so much.

jon abbey: but he is totally right in mocking the people who argued endlessly that the Melo deal would leave us unable to add talent around him and Amare. no matter what happens going forward, Grunwald has certainly been able to do that.

I’m not sure mocking someone because you were right and they were wrong is ever “totally right” after 1st grade, but I do think this is an interesting topic.

On the one hand, all of the Big 3 style teams (for lack of a better term) have been able to be relatively successful surrounding their main guys with talent. So I think it’s true that the people who were saying we’d never be able to get talent around them have been disproved to some extent, not just by what has happened with us, but also with Miami (and Boston previously) now having solid role players.

On the flip side, I do think it’s worth acknowledging that we were really freaking lucky on at least a few occasions getting here. Snagging Lin and Novak off waivers AND winning the case to get their bird rights has made surrounding them much, much easier. That’s a credit to the Knicks, but it’s also a hugely lucky break. I don’t think the people saying it could be done were envisioning finding a young stud PG on waivers. And without him where would we be? We’d have almost certainly have missed the playoffs, and with a Kidd ? PG duo I think we’d be headed towards a 7 or 8 seed at best next year.

So crow if you want, because the result has definitely worked out the way you anticipated, but from my perspective the assemblage of talent we’re looking at now has more to do with unbelivable luck than in it being easy or simple to get the right pieces around Melo and Stat.

jon abbey: Shumpert was a game-changing defender and an improving offensive player over the course of the season (check his first half vs. second half numbers). Collins was a fringe player who was out of the league very quickly. Shumpert will be around for a decade-plus if he stays healthy, and has All-Star upside. Collins, not so much.

massive:
Grunwald did add talented players. What remains to be seen is how productive they are.

one was defensive player of the year last year. Kidd and Camby isn’t the argument, the argument is Shumpert, Chandler, Lin, Novak, JR, Camby and Kidd.

the argument, repeated two trillion times here more or less by various people immediately following the Melo deal, was that in the wake of the Melo deal, NY would not be able to put much talent around Melo and Amare because of their massive contracts. that has been proven one hundred percent wrong, no matter what happens going forward.

Those were four of the five worst players on the roster by WS/48 (and arguably the worst backcourt quartet in the NBA), yet due to a variety of circumstances, played close to 1600 more minutes than three of the top players. They averaged more minutes, 16.3 per, than those top 3.

–Obviously the difference between those top three players and those bottom four is more substantial than most teams, given how mind-numbingly bad those four guys were.

*In terms of scoring percentage, the Knicks offense ranked 11th in the leage last year, according to Synergy. They were 17th in scoring efficiency.

The two glaring weak spots? Spot-up and pick and roll ballhandle scoring. (17th and 26th overall)

whew, not sure how you come to that conclusion, dude was already one of the top handful of game-changing perimeter defenders in the league (Sefalosha, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, maybe a couple of others). check out his numbers against Kobe in that Linsanity game, or the way he shut down Derrick Rose in that great Sunday win. if he comes back full strength from his injury, the sky is the limit for him IMO.

thenamestsam: Snagging Lin and Novak off waivers AND winning the case to get their bird rights has made surrounding them much, much easier.

Does anyone think maybe the league didn’t try that hard to win that case? It was clearly in the league’s benefit to have Lin stay with the Knicks (maybe not the individual teams’ benefits but the NBA’s overall benefit for sure). since basically every legal expert expected the league to win that, maybe the league just didn’t want to win it that badly.

Caleb: #1, Shump was three full years younger as a rookie, than Collins was. It’s like apples and pineapples. Compare Shump in 3 years to Mardy Collins as a rookie and we’ll see where we’re at.

Aside from the obvious difference in athleticism and potential, I think Shump’s #s would have looked better over an 82-game season – his offensive game was starting to round into form.

Not based on what’s posted on basketball-reference, Caleb. It lists Collins rookie season as age 22 and Shump’s as age 21. BBR lists the birthdates. So I’m going with that.

In addition to the comparably aged rookie seasons, their shooting numbers were also in line with multiple seasons of college ball. Both were sub-40% raw FG shooters in college.

I think that comparison between the pair’s *performance* is pretty fair, as these things go. All I said here is that the seasons were “similar in appearance” — uncomfortably so, given what’s happened to Collins — and that’s absolutely true. I’m not making a prediction about what Shump will become.

I love his upside and potential as much as anyone in this forum. That said, I am little surprised that people on this forum aren’t more realistic about Shumpert’s floor. He may never develop enough offense to stay on the floor as anything but a Stacy Augmon type specialist.

thenamestsam: So crow if you want, because the result has definitely worked out the way you anticipated, but from my perspective the assemblage of talent we’re looking at now has more to do with unbelivable luck than in it being easy or simple to get the right pieces around Melo and Stat.

sure, it’s never easy or simple. if NY takes Rondo instead of Balkman, the recent Celtics run probably doesn’t exist. if Portland takes Durant instead of Oden, same thing for OKC. the point is that the oft-repeated argument was that it would be impossible, not difficult (no one would have argued this).

thenamestsam: I’m not sure mocking someone because you were right and they were wrong is ever “totally right” after 1st grade, but I do think this is an interesting topic. On the one hand, all of the Big 3 style teams (for lack of a better term) have been able to be relatively successful surrounding their main guys with talent. So I think it’s true that the people who were saying we’d never be able to get talent around them have been disproved to some extent, not just by what has happened with us, but also with Miami (and Boston previously) now having solid role players. On the flip side, I do think it’s worth acknowledging that we were really freaking lucky on at least a few occasions getting here. Snagging Lin and Novak off waivers AND winning the case to get their bird rights has made surrounding them much, much easier. That’s a credit to the Knicks, but it’s also a hugely lucky break. I don’t think the people saying it could be done were envisioning finding a young stud PG on waivers. And without him where would we be? We’d have almost certainly have missed the playoffs, and with a Kidd ? PG duo I think we’d be headed towards a 7 or 8 seed at best next year. So crow if you want, because the result has definitely worked out the way you anticipated, but from my perspective the assemblage of talent we’re looking at now has more to do with unbelivable luck than in it being easy or simple to get the right pieces around Melo and Stat.

Wait, crow? Are you serious? This is kind of the response I would expect from Owen after a deep playoff run. So you were wrong, that should be a great thing, right?

jon abbey: whew, not sure how you come to that conclusion, dude was already one of the top handful of game-changing perimeter defenders in the league (Sefalosha, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, maybe a couple of others). check out his numbers against Kobe in that Linsanity game, or the way he shut down Derrick Rose in that great Sunday win. if he comes back full strength from his injury, the sky is the limit for him IMO.

Not addressed to me, but I think this attitude is precisely why he was overrated defensively. He had several standout performances in notable games, which really stuck in everyone’s mind. He was mind-blowingly good in that game against Rose (although he was quite lucky on not getting called for some borderline reach-ins I felt), and excellent against Kobe as well. However I felt that he didn’t bring that level of effort and especially focus consistently, and because of that lesser players were able to take advantage of him on occasion despite the fact that he should be eating those guys alive based on how he played Rose or Kobe.

I really like Shump but no where do I see all-star upside. His shooting numbers got better as the season progressed but he hasn’t even shown the ability to be average offensively over a prolonged period of time. Sub .500 TS% is very bad and his college numbers weren’t much better.

On top of that he is coming off of a catastrophic knee injury which best case will set him a year and a half behind other players his age developmentally and worst case will jeopardize his entire career.

Collins isn’t a good player but his college numbers were no worse than Shumperts and his rookie numbers weren’t much worse. Shumpert is younger but this knee injury closes most of that gap. Shumpert still has potential but at this point it is still just potential. If he fails to improve he will be nothing more than a fringe player just like Collins.

I think and hope he will improve but it is not a sure thing. Douglas and Fields both got worse after their rookie seasons and they didn’t have a major knee injury to deal with.

jon abbey: whew, not sure how you come to that conclusion, dude was already one of the top handful of game-changing perimeter defenders in the league (Sefalosha, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, maybe a couple of others). check out his numbers against Kobe in that Linsanity game, or the way he shut down Derrick Rose in that great Sunday win. if he comes back full strength from his injury, the sky is the limit for him IMO.

The problem is his best defensive attribute is his isolation defense. He’s elite there, no doubt. But he’s only average or worse at defense in every other situation. Isolation defense makes up a fifth of his defensive possessions. He spent much more time guarding the PnR last year, and was pretty poor at it.

But becaue iso defense is so obvious, and marquee scorers like Rose and Kobe tend to isolate, Shump somehow gained a rep as an elite defender despite being a very inconsistent and incomplete defender. He also fouls at a pretty high rate for a guard, which hurts the team on defense. His aggressiveness is how he earns all those steals, but it costs the team a lot.

Frank: Um, I’d like them to be good at the same time too, but not a situation in which they are better than us.There’s no point to that – we’d probably never get home court advantage in the playoffs while DWill/JJ/Howard are playing together.

And with that core they’d probably attract other front court pieces willing to get paid less for a chance at glory. But I’d still like to see it happen. I’m never going to like the Nets and have no Brooklyn allegiances, but I have enough affinity for Brooklynites to be glad that their fledgling franchise won’t be a joke. I don’t know if this Knicks squad could match up with them (or the Heat, OKC, Lakers…) but if it spawned a great rivalry between two teams with legitimate title hopes, how fun would that be? Back in the 90’s the Knicks regular season games against the Bulls and the Heat were as fun to watch as the playoffs right? There was heartbreak involved, but that’s the price of meaningful games. The more of that the better.

jon abbey: one was defensive player of the year last year. Kidd and Camby isn’t the argument, the argument is Shumpert, Chandler, Lin, Novak, JR, Camby and Kidd.

the argument, repeated two trillion times here more or less by various people immediately following the Melo deal, was that in the wake of the Melo deal, NY would not be able to put much talent around Melo and Amare because of their massive contracts. that has been proven one hundred percent wrong, no matter what happens going forward.

I have to second this. Recall also, there were those who argued that Melo and Amare wouldn’t attract players, but that too has been blown out of the water. It is clear the guys the Knicks have all came because there is a belief that the Knicks have the pieces to compete for a championship, even in the east with a team like the heat.
The Knicks first five are very, very solid. I am convinced Amare is going to have a huge year. I am convinced Melo will be more fit from the outset. I am convinced Chandler will improve his pick and roll. I am also convinced Lin will be a better guard more able to attack with both hands. And we will have no defensive drop off when Tyson sits with Camby playing, and we will have competent leadership with Kidd running the O while Lin sits.
Put yourself on any team in the east and try to gameplay the Knicks. They will be a Nightmare.
—
On Collins v. Shump
The numbers may be similar, but in no way were these guys even close. Aside from Shump’s obvious “specialness,” he also played his rookie year under the most grueling of circumstancs. Collins never, every played four games in five nights. Never. He never played so many back to backs. He never played Shump’s minutes. He never carried the load Shump was asked to carry. Respectfully, this is comparing apples with some otherworld alien fruit.

jon abbey: sure, it’s never easy or simple. if NY takes Rondo instead of Balkman, the recent Celtics run probably doesn’t exist. if Portland takes Durant instead of Oden, same thing for OKC. the point is that the oft-repeated argument was that it would be impossible, not difficult (no one would have argued this).

If that’s what they were saying then I agree with you. Anyone who says anything is impossible is basically asking to be proven wrong. Few things are. But I think if we add a little nuance to the discussion we can see that someone saying that it was extremely unlikely that the Knicks would be able to build a contender around them may have had a point. We’ve had a number of gigantic breaks go our way already, and it’s still not clear that there’s enough talent on hand to make us more than longshot contenders.

ruruland: Wait, crow? Are you serious? This is kind of the response I would expect from Owen after a deep playoff run. So you were wrong, that should be a great thing, right?

gjknick:
Another thought about Landry – we have JR ready to start the season at the 2. Shump should be back before long and if fully healthy, that would be a great combo. But as insurance in case Shump has a set back, is matching Landry that bad of an idea? He can back up the 2 and the 3. There’s at least some hope he shoots better than last year. Also, it doesn’t cost us anything except Dolan dollars, right? No loss of flexiblity going forward -we’re already capped out for the 3 years the contract is for. It ends at the same time as Melo, Amare, TC, and Lin. So we get our flexiblity back. If Landry never gets his shot back, all he costs us is a roster spot – as the 12 guy on the bench, who cares. Tell me what I’m missing?

Landry is not worth that kind of money. Especially with the risk of him not getting that shot back. Replay the Landry Fields highlight/lowlight reel in your head from last year: the clunked 3ptrs, the bricks at the FT line, the uber-untimely turnovers, the fact that when the level of the competition rose, he was clearly outclassed. C’mon now…

thenamestsam: I’m not sure mocking someone because you were right and they were wrong is ever “totally right” after 1st grade, but I do think this is an interesting topic.

On the one hand, all of the Big 3 style teams (for lack of a better term) have been able to be relatively successful surrounding their main guys with talent. So I think it’s true that the people who were saying we’d never be able to get talent around them have been disproved to some extent, not just by what has happened with us, but also with Miami (and Boston previously) now having solid role players.

On the flip side, I do think it’s worth acknowledging that we were really freaking lucky on at least a few occasions getting here. Snagging Lin and Novak off waivers AND winning the case to get their bird rights has made surrounding them much, much easier. That’s a credit to the Knicks, but it’s also a hugely lucky break. I don’t think the people saying it could be done were envisioning finding a young stud PG on waivers. And without him where would we be? We’d have almost certainly have missed the playoffs, and with a Kidd ? PG duo I think we’d be headed towards a 7 or 8 seed at best next year.

So crow if you want, because the result has definitely worked out the way you anticipated, but from my perspective the assemblage of talent we’re looking at now has more to do with unbelivable luck than in it being easy or simple to get the right pieces around Melo and Stat.

That’s what I’ve been saying. Without lucking into Lin, the whole thing falls apart, so the crowing is both misplaced and premature.

We went into the Miami series last year with the exact same team, PLUS Novak and JR, that Knicks management planned for when the season started, and we got slaughtered.

Despite the big names and salaries, we’re nowhere without Lin. We’re a house of cards. So Lin,…

2FOR18: That’s what I’ve been saying. Without lucking into Lin, the whole thing falls apart, so the crowing is both misplaced and premature.

I agree with the observation (Lin is the key to the Knicks improvement with Chandler), but disagree with the conclusion (the crowing is misplaced). Amnestying Billups for Chandler was based upon the assumption that it is easier to find a quality PG than a quality center. The Knick FO may have been wrong to believe that Douglas could handle the PG job, but the larger bet was that they could more easily find “someone” to fill the PG spot. The Knicks were fortunate to grab Lin, but the luck was the residue of a plan.

So how did the outgoing players (Walker, Davis, Bibby, Fields, Douglas) stack up in that regard, and how does the returning or incoming players compare (Novak, Smith, Kidd,Lin— they’re going to be taking the lionshare of those 50+ mpg from the quartet)?

Before we talk about how much better Ama’re and Melo will be, or how JR will get more spot-up looks, or how Camby and Kidd improve the team, or any positive interaction effects that will occur, simpy taking those guys out of the rotation and replacing them with guys who directly address the Knicks two glaring offensive weaknesses last year- — that alone should improve the Knicks win % by at least 2-3 games.

David Crockett: Not based on what’s posted on basketball-reference, Caleb. It lists Collins rookie season as age 22 and Shump’s as age 21. BBR lists the birthdates. So I’m going with that.

In addition to the comparably aged rookie seasons, their shooting numbers were also in line with multiple seasons of college ball. Both were sub-40% raw FG shooters in college.

I think that comparison between the pair’s *performance* is pretty fair, as these things go. All I said here is that the seasons were “similar in appearance” — uncomfortably so, given what’s happened to Collins — and that’s absolutely true. I’m not making a prediction about what Shump will become.

I love his upside and potential as much as anyone in this forum. That said, I am little surprised that people on this forum aren’t more realistic about Shumpert’s floor. He may never develop enough offense to stay on the floor as anything but a Stacy Augmon type specialist.

This. I said all year that I understand why people were so excited by Shump. He’s obviously a rare athlete, and it’s a lot of fun to watch him play defense. But he was a horrible offensive player- worse than even Landry. He did have some good stretches, but his bad stretches were really bad, and they did happen too.

2FOR18:
We went into the Miami series last year with the exact same team, PLUS Novak and JR, that Knicks management planned for when the season started, and we got slaughtered.

well, Chandler basically wasn’t there because of the plague that TD gave him, Shumpert lasted a game or so before getting hurt, and Miami ended up winning the title, so really not sure what the point is here.

I’ll say something for the trillionth time:

if your idea of success is a title and everything else is a failure, then the window basically closed when LeBron chose Miami. there is pretty much no sequence of events since then that would have made NY favorites over MIA or OKC, except some catastrophic injuries to their best players.

but if your idea of success is to try to build one of the top 6-8 teams in the league and hope that you catch some breaks in the postseason, then I think it’s hard to argue much with what NY has done since the Melo trade, and maybe even since LeBron choosing Miami. if we don’t sign Amare and don’t trade for Melo, what does the roster look like now? I have no idea honestly, but it wouldn’t be a layup that it would be better IMO.

2FOR18: That’s what I’ve been saying. Without lucking into Lin, the whole thing falls apart, so the crowing is both misplaced and premature.We went into the Miami series last year with the exact same team, PLUS Novak and JR, that Knicks management planned for when the season started, and we got slaughtered.Despite the big names and salaries, we’re nowhere without Lin. We’re a house of cards. So Lin,…

every championship team has in some way lucked out to have great players.

Those were four of the five worst players on the roster by WS/48 (and arguably the worst backcourt quartet in the NBA), yet due to a variety of circumstances, played close to 1600 more minutes than three of the top players. They averaged more minutes, 16.3 per, than those top 3.

–Obviously the difference between those top three players and those bottom four is more substantial than most teams, given how mind-numbingly bad those four guys were.

*In terms of scoring percentage, the Knicks offense ranked 11th in the leage last year, according to Synergy. They were 17th in scoring efficiency.

The two glaring weak spots? Spot-up and pick and roll ballhandle scoring. (17th and 26th overall)

cont…

I agree that if everything goes right this team can be the #2 seed next year, and I love what Grunwald has done given the lack of cap room he was dealt. I just want to see all the ifs that we all know about work out before I pencil us in for 55+ wins and the ECF.

2FOR18: I agree that if everything goes right this team can be the #2 seed next year, and I love what Grunwald has done given the lack of cap room he was dealt. I just want to see all the ifs that we all know about work out before I pencil us in for 55+ wins and the ECF.

Why second seed? If everything goes right they can win HCA throughout. It probably won’t all go right, and it could go wrong, but that’s why we’re fans.

Re: Shumpert – I think everyone sees the defensive potential in him. He clearly played really well at times and not so well at other times. He has a lot to learn about PNR and team defense, but that is learned through coaching and experience – and he got very little coaching last year because of the lockout and schedule. His development will definitely be hindered by this injury too.

As it is now, I think his best comp right now is someone like Tony Allen: a terror of an isolation defender, below average offensive player. And importantly – Allen also had a torn ACL earlier in his career. Since his Celtics days, Allen has also become a really really good team defender.

For someone like Shump, who obviously takes a lot of pride in his defensive skill, I think it’s unlikely that (health permitting) he won’t continue to improve on that end – probably will be a perennial 2nd team All-D guy, if not better (he nearly made 3rd team this year).

Offensively, he immediately has more skills than Tony Allen – he’s a much better ballhandler, has pretty good court vision, and at age 21 is already as good a 3 point shooter (not great) as Allen is at age 30. On top of that, he’s a lot bigger than Allen. Allen has a better TS because he’s learned to limit his shot selection.

Re: Mardy Collins – this comparison is probably what happens when you don’t see the 2 players playing side by side. Collins was a well-below average NBA athlete, whereas Shump is crazy athletic. No one ever thought Collins would be good because he was just too slow.When we’re projecting what kind of player Shump will be in a few years, that athleticism makes all the difference.

@141 i too disagree completely w the collins comps, that being said, look at collins draft express physical profile . not too far off from shumps… 6 5, 225, 6 10 wingspan, 37 inch max vert . he came into the league able to throw down every now and then believe it or not lol

ruruland: every championship team has in some way lucked out to have great players.

This is very true, but not all breaks are created equal. Miami was lucky that Lebron chose them. They probably only had like a 10% chance or something like that (all numbers made up purely for discussion purposes) of ending up with him, Wade, and Bosh even once their plan to clear the space and whatever went perfectly. But that’s a total slamdunk compared to finding a star (if that’s what he is, and I think our hopes rest on that) PG on waivers, with a 2nd round pick, or with any of the other super budget routes available to us. That was maybe not 1 in a million, but I don’t think 1 in 10000 is pushing it.

All I’m saying is that yes every team needs breaks to become a contender, but I don’t think it’s wrong to say our breaks may have been bigger than most.

jon abbey: the arguments were in the wake of the Melo deal, so Shumpert, Chandler, Lin, Novak, JR, Camby and Kidd. there’s no need to wait and see, that argument has been thoroughly capsized.

The thing that has capzised is Kidd’s skill level Camby is pretty old, not sure what he has left. He made some cap room for Chandler, but most of those folks kinda fell in his lap. If we make the finals he’ll have proven me wrong.

David Crockett: Did you even click the link Thomas? These are just traditional per 36 numbers for their respective rookie seasons (age 21 for Shump, 22 for Collins). Just shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and steals.

I LOVE Shump too y’all, but damn. He is an exceptionally bad shooter (TS% .484 for Shump, .445 for Collins); and was a bad shooter for 3 years at Ga Tech. That’s just a fact. Whether you’re Dave Berri or Charles Barkley, you have to concede that.

I think you guys are just forgetting what a quality defender Mardy Collins was. He played on terrible defensive teams, so those contributions got lost and all we remember is the shooting.

Yes, I clicked the link. I was just being sarcastic. I agree with you.

Thomas B.: The thing that has capzised is Kidd’s skill level Camby is pretty old, not sure what he has left. He made some cap room for Chandler, but most of those folks kinda fell in his lap. If we make the finals he’ll have proven me wrong.

Having watched most of Kidd’s plays last year, I disagree about skill. His speed and quickness isn’t great, but he has lots of amazing skills still.

@134 I agree with the larger premise that the Knicks gave a lot of minutes to terrible players last year, which won’t be the case this year, which should mean significant improvement. The most obvious being, for 2/3 of the season our PG was Toney Douglas or Baron Davis.

I’m not sure why ruru is so hung up on people’s spot-up shooting ability (see J.R., Who Shot).

@132 The larger point seems true – that it’s been easier to find pieces than many of us thought, including myself. But the Chandler signing was much more of a successful gamble than you made it out to be. At the time of the trade (for Melo and Billups), no one knew if Chandler was even headed to free agency. Our GMs just gambled that we COULD find a strong defensive center, which was critical, because our forwards were Melo and Amare. If Chandler hadn’t landed here, there’s no one comparable who could have filled that role – we’d still be looking, and our team would be a lot worse. Lin involved even more luck – since no one remotely saw it coming – but at the same time, it’s a lot easier to find a player “like” Lin (for position, and impact) than to find a player like Chandler.

jon abbey: well, Chandler basically wasn’t there because of the plague that TD gave him, Shumpert lasted a game or so before getting hurt, and Miami ended up winning the title, so really not sure what the point is here.

I’ll say something for the trillionth time:

if your idea of success is a title and everything else is a failure, then the window basically closed when LeBron chose Miami. there is pretty much no sequence of events since then that would have made NY favorites over MIA or OKC, except some catastrophic injuries to their best players.

but if your idea of success is to try to build one of the top 6-8 teams in the league and hope that you catch some breaks in the postseason, then I think it’s hard to argue much with what NY has done since the Melo trade, and maybe even since LeBron choosing Miami. if we don’t sign Amare and don’t trade for Melo, what does the roster look like now? I have no idea honestly, but it wouldn’t be a layup that it would be better IMO.

I think this is very well said and an important point. We tend to get too dissatisfied with not being championship favorites, instead of enjoying the ride as much as possible.

This is the first time in god only knows how long where going into a season I’ve said that we have a chance to win a title. It’s not a good chance. In fact in my estimation it’s a very, very slight chance. But look at the Celts this past year. Not a great team by any stretch of the imagination, but if Lebron doesn’t go super-saiyan in game 6 they make the finals. Granted, Lebron is extremely prone to having absurdly good games, but the Celts were still perilously close to making the finals, and that was with Lebron healthy. If Lebron goes down (admittedly, I’m not sure this is actually possible) the East is wide open. It’s not a good chance, but it is a chance, and just having that feels so…

This team is built for 3 year – it fair say Kidd and Camby can squeeze another year out of their body. Question what happen follow years? Will become liabilities or solid rotation players? 40 year old the following season – big red flag.

Crawford was #6 on the corner 3 last year, hitting on 46% (Novak was #3 at 48%). Chris Paul has often said that his offensive sets only really work if there is a strong threat at the corner 3.

Crawford also can create his own offense off of the dribble when Paul is on the bench. Last year, the Clippers offense was stagnant and inefficient without Paul.

Ray Allen would have provided the Clippers with even better corner 3 marksmanship (#1 in the NBA at 50% last year), but he cannot create his own offense. So Allen would only have answered one of the Clippers two needs.

jon abbey: if your idea of success is a title and everything else is a failure, then the window basically closed when LeBron chose Miami.

+10000
No team will ever be the favorite except Miami when Bosh/Wade/Lebron are still in/near their physical primes. Just won’t happen. But if you put together a good team, one can imagine something like last year’s Dallas-MIA final happening – where Lebron is a little off, clever defensive scheming confuses the rest, and Dallas wins.

But what jonabbey wrote seems to be the meme of the day amongst the Knick-hating mainstream media.

btw – a lot of things have been written about how Melo and Amare can’t play together, but Melo sure looked awesome the 1st few weeks of the season before his injuries mounted. And re: Amare – even in the worst season of his career, his FG% at the rim was the highest since his 2008 PHX year (69.7%). In fact, almost ALL of Amare’s efficiency dropoff was due to his career-low mid-range jumpshooting. If you look at hoopdata, for his career he has shot ~40% from 10-15ft and ~44% from 16-23ft for his career, but last year he shot 31% and 35% respectively . If he maintained those percentages last year, quick math shows that his TS would have been 59.5. If Amare had a TS of 59.5 for the year, he would have avearged 21.2 points/36 and no one would be talking about how he and Melo can’t coexist.

Like someone wrote above, I’m looking for a huge bounceback year from Amare, and I expect us to challenge for the 3 seed.

David Crockett: Not based on what’s posted on basketball-reference, Caleb. It lists Collins rookie season as age 22 and Shump’s as age 21. BBR lists the birthdates. So I’m going with that.

In addition to the comparably aged rookie seasons, their shooting numbers were also in line with multiple seasons of college ball. Both were sub-40% raw FG shooters in college.

I think that comparison between the pair’s *performance* is pretty fair, as these things go. All I said here is that the seasons were “similar in appearance” — uncomfortably so, given what’s happened to Collins — and that’s absolutely true. I’m not making a prediction about what Shump will become.

I love his upside and potential as much as anyone in this forum. That said, I am little surprised that people on this forum aren’t more realistic about Shumpert’s floor. He may never develop enough offense to stay on the floor as anything but a Stacy Augmon type specialist.

Sorry, you’re right, I misread some of those dates.

I was very much a Shump skeptic when he came into the league; I watched him for two years at Tech. But I’m more optimistic now. He’s got a nicer stroke now, and there’s some real evidence it works – witness the FT #s, and the improvement in 3-point percentage in the 2nd half of the year.

Also, subjectively, his ability to penetrate made him a viable backup PG option – no #s to support this, but I recall several games when our offense went absolutely nowhere until he was on the floor.

Collins was listed as a PG but I don’t recall him having any penetration, passing or ballhandling skills at all. Of course by the numbers they are almost identical, so we’ll see.

Even so, Shump had a higher PER (10.8 to 9.2) and higher WS/48 (.068 vs. .002). The main difference seems to be he shot more efficiently – .484 vs. .445 TS%. Not good, but no Mardy…

Frank O.:
—
On Collins v. Shump
The numbers may be similar, but in no way were these guys even close. Aside from Shump’s obvious “specialness,” he also played his rookie year under the most grueling of circumstancs. Collins never, every played four games in five nights. Never. He never played so many back to backs. He never played Shump’s minutes. He never carried the load Shump was asked to carry. Respectfully, this is comparing apples with some otherworld alien fruit.

And after all that, Shumpert shot about as well–maybe even a little better–than he did in college, where the two were pretty comparable offensive players.

For the life of me, I’m not seeing why people are digging their heels in on this.

BTW Vegas agree with you. Knicks are list at 12-1 Odds to Win Title. That’s the 6th best odds. Miami was list at 2-1.

I think that’s probably a bit generous (no surprise given that NY teams tend to generate a lot of bets). That implies something like a 9-10 percent chance of winning it all, depending on how big the Casino’s cut is. I’d probably put it at about half that, but for the last 10+ years I wouldn’t have bet a dollar at 100-1, so I’m excited no matter what.

if your idea of success is a title and everything else is a failure, then the window basically closed when LeBron chose Miami.

but if your idea of success is to try to build one of the top 6-8 teams in the league and hope that you catch some breaks in the postseason, then I think it’s hard to argue much with what NY has done since the Melo trade

I also think the split would be even wider if the season had gone 82 games instead of 66. Shump’s improved shooting could have been a random statistical variation but the trend looks clear.

Shump also had a much higher steals percentage (3.1 vs. 2.2), and subjectively was a way better on-ball defender. I wonder if WS doesn’t give Shump too much credit for the Knicks’ team defense this past year.

To your larger point, I agree people are overrating Shump a bit. He is NOT a good offensive player, and the excitement around him is, or should be, based more on potential than anything else.

But if his knee recovers, I think he’s at least a solid rotation guy – on any team – which Collins never was.

I love how people only want to look at the part of the season in which Shumpert shot well. 44 games of awful shooting cured by 6 games of good shooting. I guess we all tend to focus on what best fits our views.

His EFG% of his last 10 games was 45% if my math is right (29 fgs + 0.5* 6 tpfg) / 71. His EFG in his first 10 games was 40% (49 fgs + 0.5* 12) / 135. So he was “better” at the end of the season. But is an EFG of 45% good?

I get that younger gaurds may struggle from the floor as rookies. Heck CP3 only put up a EFG of 45.4% at the age of 20. But we can’t excuse the performance. All we can say is what Shump really is. Assuming of course my math is right, which it might not be.

Caleb: Sorry, you’re right, I misread some of those dates. I was very much a Shump skeptic when he came into the league; I watched him for two years at Tech. But I’m more optimistic now. He’s got a nicer stroke now, and there’s some real evidence it works – witness the FT #s, and the improvement in 3-point percentage in the 2nd half of the year. Also, subjectively, his ability to penetrate made him a viable backup PG option – no #s to support this, but I recall several games when our offense went absolutely nowhere until he was on the floor. Collins was listed as a PG but I don’t recall him having any penetration, passing or ballhandling skills at all. Of course by the numbers they are almost identical, so we’ll see. Even so, Shump had a higher PER (10.8 to 9.2) and higher WS/48 (.068 vs. .002). The main difference seems to be he shot more efficiently – .484 vs. .445 TS%. Not good, but no Mardy…

Shump has good balance and elevation on his jumper, is obviously fantastic getting a step on his man and exploding around the rim (when healthy), and his ballhandling skills are superior to most shooting guards.

The tools are available for Shump to mold himself into a really good offensive player. But it will take time and a lot of hard work, neither are givens.

David Crockett: And after all that, Shumpert shot about as well–maybe even a little better–than he did in college, where the two were pretty comparable offensive players.

For the life of me, I’m not seeing why people are digging their heels in on this.

Probably because Shump is a potential all defensive team-caliber player, whereas Collins had trouble keeping senior citizens in front of him at Safeway.
And Shump’s athleticism allowed him to penetrate whereas Marty sometimes struggled to get the ball past mid court.
There’s so much more to Shump. We were witness to Collins’ ceiling. Last year likely was Shump’s floor.
The knee likely will determine much of this.
But I’m not digging in heels. I just know what I saw from both guys. I acknowledged the numbers were similar.

Re: Mardy Collins – this comparison is probably what happens when you don’t see the 2 players playing side by side. Collins was a well-below average NBA athlete, whereas Shump is crazy athletic. No one ever thought Collins would be good because he was just too slow.When we’re projecting what kind of player Shump will be in a few years, that athleticism makes all the difference.

About a million comments ago, I made a throwaway comment that the two had “uncomfortably similar” rookie seasons. I’m not comparing potential, just production. On that basis, the two were undeniably similar. Are there some caveats? Absolutely, but 60+ games is a large enough sample especially when it compares favorably to Shumpert’s college performance.

Additionally, I was a big Mardy Collins fan at Temple. So I saw a lot of him. I’m not just looking at spreadsheets. Collins didn’t have anything like Shump’s athleticism, but he was a little bigger, at least as long as Shump, and a superb defender. I maintain that people are underselling how good a defender Collins was because it was Isaiah’s Knicks.

I think the Allen comparison is fair, and maybe even a “likely” outcome for Shump. But he’d have to improve a TON to justify all the “How dare you even mention them in the same breath?” talk that I’m reading.

Thomas B.:
I love how people only want to look at the part of the season in which Shumpert shot well.44 games of awful shooting cured by 6 games of good shooting.I guess we all tend to focus on what best fits our views.

His EFG% of his last 10 games was 45% if my math is right (29 fgs + 0.5* 6 tpfg) / 71.His EFG in his first 10 games was 40% (49 fgs + 0.5* 12) / 135.So he was “better” at the end of the season. But is an EFG of 45% good?

I get that younger gaurds may struggle from the floor as rookies.Heck CP3 only put up a EFG of 45.4% at the age of 20.But we can’t excuse the performance.All we can say is what Shump really is. Assuming of course my math is right, which it might not be.

When we look at the injury-related finishing issues and horrendous shot selection, on top of playing much of the year without a point guard who could set up assisted basket opportunities, the numbers don’t mean a whole lot.

Let’s compare him to Fields, for example:

Isolation: Fields:.72ppp, Shump .83 ppp (65th in the NBA)

PnR ballhandler: Fields .55, Shump .63

Spot-up: Fields .77, Shump .81

Cut: Fields 1.23 (9.3% of plays), Shump 1.09 (2.3%)

Transition: Shump 1.18, Fields 1.11

If we just cut down on Shump’s PnR ballhandling and isolation (though he’s a very good iso player) and put him off the ball more, his numbers would look a lot better without ANY improvement at all.

This Shumpert v Collins thing is a joke right? I mean this is a clear case of Numbers Do Lie or something in Berri’s crackhouse.

Also Shumpert was nicknamed the Cookie Monster all through college, his defensive abilities have never been questioned. On that note if this is what you guys have been reduced to discussing, Collins=Shumpert then I think it’s safe to say you all should get a life.

ephus: I agree with the observation (Lin is the key to the Knicks improvement with Chandler), but disagree with the conclusion (the crowing is misplaced).Amnestying Billups for Chandler was based upon the assumption that it is easier to find a quality PG than a quality center.The Knick FO may have been wrong to believe that Douglas could handle the PG job, but the larger bet was that they could more easily find “someone” to fill the PG spot.The Knicks were fortunate to grab Lin, but the luck was the residue of a plan.

you mean the luck was a residue of design :)
and better lucky than good

I don’t think there is a path. The Magic are looking for (1) draft picks (which the Knicks do not have), (2) the opportunity to shed bad contracts (which the Knicks cannot provide) and (3) players to rebuild around. The only plausible trade that works would be Chandler/Shumpert/Gadzuric for Howard — which satisfies none of Orlando’s requirements.

Of course, injuries over the course of the year might change my expectations.

I like these kinds of silly games. I’d make getting swept in the 1st round, or even a gentleman’s sweep like this year where we weren’t competitive a double bogey. Then it’s only a bogey if we’re competitive and lose in the 1st round. And then missing the playoffs is a triple bogey which feels more appropriate. Missing the playoffs this year would be a complete and utter disaster. I think I’d do the same thing on the other end of the scale too. We get an Eagle just for making the ECF a serious series and pushing Miami (presumably) to the edge. A double eagle for actually winning the series. And then the exceedingly rare hole in 1 on a par 5 for actually winning the whole thing.

I kind of love Tyson and Amare. I think both will have great years, but the trade works and I’m just throwing it out there….
Maybe someone has done this before.

If you believe Larry Coon (and he has been known to be wrong), Amar’e has the most untradable contract in the league right now. Tyson/Amar’e pushes Orlando further away from its goals to be younger and have open cap space.

jon abbey: well, Chandler basically wasn’t there because of the plague that TD gave him, Shumpert lasted a game or so before getting hurt, and Miami ended up winning the title, so really not sure what the point is here.

I’ll say something for the trillionth time:

if your idea of success is a title and everything else is a failure, then the window basically closed when LeBron chose Miami. there is pretty much no sequence of events since then that would have made NY favorites over MIA or OKC, except some catastrophic injuries to their best players.

but if your idea of success is to try to build one of the top 6-8 teams in the league and hope that you catch some breaks in the postseason, then I think it’s hard to argue much with what NY has done since the Melo trade, and maybe even since LeBron choosing Miami. if we don’t sign Amare and don’t trade for Melo, what does the roster look like now? I have no idea honestly, but it wouldn’t be a layup that it would be better IMO.

My idea of success would be the ECF. That would get me over the melo trade.

ruruland: When
If we just cut down on Shump’s PnR ballhandling and isolation (though he’s a very good iso player) and put him off the ball more, his numbers would look a lot better without ANY improvement at all.

Generally agreed, though I’d say Shump’s usage probably needs to come down overall. Putting him more or less full time at the 1.5 and 2 will make him a better player.

ruruland:
So, the Heat winning it all is a par? Are they really four strokes per hole better than the Knicks? wow

Obviously ephus is the final authority on this completely arbitrary goofy system but I’d say making the finals would be par for them. Winning would still be a birdie. Anyone who would call a season in which you make the finals and lose a disappointment overall (from an analytical perspective, obviously once you make it to the finals you’re going to experience disappointment if you lose) isn’t being realistic about how difficult that is in my opinion.

ruruland: When we look at the injury-related finishing issues and horrendous shot selection, on top of playing much of the year without a point guard who could set up assisted basket opportunities, the numbers don’t mean a whole lot.

Let’s compare him to Fields, for example:

Isolation: Fields:.72ppp, Shump .83 ppp (65th in the NBA)

PnR ballhandler: Fields .55, Shump .63

Spot-up: Fields .77, Shump .81

Cut: Fields 1.23 (9.3% of plays), Shump 1.09 (2.3%)

Transition: Shump 1.18, Fields 1.11

If we just cut down on Shump’s PnR ballhandling and isolation (though he’s a very good iso player) and put him off the ball more, his numbers would look a lot better without ANY improvement at all.

Great. Look out All-NBA team, here comes the new and improved Shump. Now with better ball handling and a quality point. Yay!

I’ve said this 1000x and I’ll say it again – especially on a team that has a bunch of parts that don’t fit perfectly together, we need TIME and CONTINUITY to see how good we can be. I don’t want to hear anything else about trades for whiny baby Dwight Howard and his surgically repaired maybe-it’s-ok back.

The major players on this team (Lin/JR/Shump/Melo/Amare/TC/Novak) and new head coach had a combined what, 8 games together before everyone got injured, and still went 18-6 to end the year. Now we’ve added an actual real and healthy (if old) PG legend in Kidd, and lo and behold, our defense won’t completely fall apart every time Chandler has to sit down now that we have Camby. We have NO IDEA how good this team can be.

All the best teams have had lots of time together – the only recent team that had a lot of success right off the bat after big roster changes was the Celtics when Ray/KG showed up, but that combination of Rondo/Ray/Pierce/KG/Perkins was about as perfect a team construct as one could hope for. Even Miami didn’t play nearly up to expectations for most of year 1.

So let’s stop lamenting past trades (Melo trade is over and done with), past non-draft picks, and looking around at the bar for a prettier girl all the time. This team is pretty damn good.

Gideon Zaga:
This Shumpert v Collins thing is a joke right? I mean this is a clear case of Numbers Do Lie or something in Berri’s crackhouse.

Also Shumpert was nicknamed the Cookie Monster all through college, his defensive abilities have never been questioned. On that note if this is what you guys have been reduced to discussing, Collins=Shumpert then I think it’s safe to say you all should get a life.

We were kinda just joking when it started but the Shump-ites took it all personal. Sheesh.

Heat are getting Rashard Lewis by the sound of it. He’s pretty much washed up I think, but for the minimum I think it’s a sound play. He might be rejuvenated playing with a contender again, and he can play as a 4 who can open up the floor. I don’t think he’ll get many minutes barring an injury but he’s reasonable insurance against an injury to one of their shooters.

This is what annoys the crap out of me in regards to national writers hating the Knicks. This guy (Bradford Doolittle) writes for basketball prospectus and ESPN Insider which is where I just read this article. The headline says Knicks get older, not better. Yet in the article where he is basically ripping the moves the Knicks have made he reluctantly admits his projection system/spreadsheet currently has the Knicks as the 2nd best team in the East. He goes on to basically make excuses about how they are barely 2nd best and its only because Rose is hurt and how it will change if Howard goes to the Nets. He basically says that who cares if the Knicks wind up as the 4th best team in the NBA its a waste of money.

Its amazing how people just dont want to admit the Knicks have a very good team now but since its not as good as the Heat it doesnt matter anyway.

With regard to Shumpert’s defense- as far as I can tell he was pretty much the top perimeter player in the league in forcing turnovers. According to synergy he forced turnovers 17.8% of the time. The closest I could find was Chris Paul at 15.6%. Mike Conley was at 15.3% and pretty much everybody else (Bradley, Allen, Rondo, AI, Wade, LBJ, Brewer, etc…) was 13% or below. Yes, he fouled a lot and definitely needs to improve both in pnrs and off of the ball but if that doesn’t tell you he has the potential to be an all-NBA defender I don’t know what does. Mardy Collins was a solid defender, Shump showed not just flashes but solid stretches of dominant perimeter defense- no comparison. The ACL injury is huge- I doubt he’s back to 100% (especially in terms of lateral movement) this season. But hopefully he’ll get back to where he was and hopefully improve from there.

nicos:
With regard to Shumpert’s defense- as far as I can tell he was pretty much the top perimeter player in the league in forcing turnovers.According to synergy he forced turnovers 17.8% of the time.The closest I could find was Chris Paul at 15.6%.Mike Conley was at 15.3% and pretty much everybody else (Bradley, Allen, Rondo, AI, Wade, LBJ, Brewer, etc…) was 13% or below.Yes, he fouled a lot and definitely needs to improve both in pnrs and off of the ball but if that doesn’t tell you he has the potential to be an all-NBA defender I don’t know what does.Mardy Collins was a solid defender, Shump showed not just flashes but solid stretches of dominant perimeter defense- no comparison.The ACL injury is huge- I doubt he’s back to 100% (especially in terms of lateral movement) this season.But hopefully he’ll get back to where he was and hopefully improve from there.

And let’s not forget that as Shump’s rep. spreads, his foul rate will go down.

As for Doolittle, Writes Doolittle: “The Knicks are assembling an old, expensive team that looks good — but not great — on paper and that has nothing but downside in its future…. (G)iven the more punitive aspects of the new C.B.A., the Knicks’ future payroll bills may be at levels which would make even (former GM and president Isiah) Thomas blush. After all of the bad, bloated teams, tanked seasons and broken promises, the Knicks are threatening to end up right back where they started.”

nicos:
With regard to Shumpert’s defense- as far as I can tell he was pretty much the top perimeter player in the league in forcing turnovers.According to synergy he forced turnovers 17.8% of the time.The closest I could find was Chris Paul at 15.6%.Mike Conley was at 15.3% and pretty much everybody else (Bradley, Allen, Rondo, AI, Wade, LBJ, Brewer, etc…) was 13% or below.Yes, he fouled a lot and definitely needs to improve both in pnrs and off of the ball but if that doesn’t tell you he has the potential to be an all-NBA defender I don’t know what does.Mardy Collins was a solid defender, Shump showed not just flashes but solid stretches of dominant perimeter defense- no comparison.The ACL injury is huge- I doubt he’s back to 100% (especially in terms of lateral movement) this season.But hopefully he’ll get back to where he was and hopefully improve from there.

And the strength of the Knicks’ defense, Four Factors-wise, was causing turnovers:

ruruland: As for Doolittle, Writes Doolittle: “The Knicks are assembling an old, expensive team that looks good — but not great — on paper and that has nothing but downside in its future…. (G)iven the more punitive aspects of the new C.B.A., the Knicks’ future payroll bills may be at levels which would make even (former GM and president Isiah) Thomas blush. After all of the bad, bloated teams, tanked seasons and broken promises, the Knicks are threatening to end up right back where they started.”

The Knicks are looking at three years of super high luxury taxes, but it is ridiculous to say that they are threatening to end up right back where they started. The high tax teams of 2002-07 were nowhere close to contenders. This roster is a threat.

ephus: The Knicks are looking at three years of super high luxury taxes, but it is ridiculous to say that they are threatening to end up right back where they started.The high tax teams of 2002-07 were nowhere close to contenders.This roster is a threat.

I dont get ripping the team because of future luxery tax crap. If Dolan is willing to pay it and the moves arent really affecting the future of the team considering after 3 years the Knicks will have more cap room than any team in the league I just dont get the criticism especially if in your own article you admit that your statistical projection system says the moves have made the Knicks the 2nd best team in the East.

You can argue with the fact you dont think they are the 2nd best team in the East but the article is basically saying my statistical model is a waste dont pay attention to it just to basically spite the Knicks. I dont get it.

I was an early WFAN devoted listener, and I remember being bitterly disappointed when Pete Franklin finally showed up after months of build-up. His shtick was basic Bob Grant-style abuse of callers, with a very generic take on sports that contributed nothing and drew nothing from the New York sports scene.

When WFAN finally looks to replace Francessa, I hope they go way outside the box and consider a new odd couple: Nate Silver and JR Smith.

Brian Cronin:
Doolittle’s article was fairly rambling. Why even write about the Knicks now if his position is that it is too soon to rank teams?

It sounded rambling because he didnt like what his statistical model said about the moves so he had to come up with bullshit reasons to say his model is dubious at the moment.

Ive always been critical of Hollinger if only because I thought he always went out of his way to ridicule the Knicks. But at the end of this season he was very complimentary of them because his stats said they were a pretty good team and better than their 7th seed, hell he even said he wouldve probably picked them vs the Pacers if they were the 6th seed and not the Magic and Hollinger was very complimentary of the Pacers so that said alot about how highly he thought of the Knicks at the end of th season. He didnt let his seemingly bias or hatred of the team get in the way of what his stats were saying which this Doolittle fellow apparently is having a hard time with right now.

The fact that the Knicks with their limited ability to make significant moves have been able to make enough smaller moves that have put them in the conversation to at least consider them possibly being the 2nd best team in the conference should I think bring them praise and at least some credit not ridicule.

Brian Cronin:
Also, I don’t get why he doesn’t seem to view Smith as the starting 2. Isn’t Smith pretty much obviously the starting 2 as of right now?

he definitely is, but he’s always come off the bench and is one of those guys who feels more comfortable coming off the bench, so I’d say it’s pretty likely that we’ll be acquiring a “starter” to play 20 minutes and start both halves, a la Fields this past season.

Rashard Lewis going to the Heat and Twitter is filled with compliments and cant believe the Heat did it again. Do they not know he has been one of the worst players in the NBA the past 2 seasons?? This is what Im talking about, if the Knicks signed Lewis it wouldnt have mattered at all and Im sure everyone wouldve noted how bad he has been and how he is probably washed up now but the Heat get him and its what a move by Riley!!

Never mind that the Knicks basically outmaneuvered the Heat to get Camby who is a player that would really benefit the Heat and they really wanted and I cant imagine how much praise the Heat wouldve gotten if they signed Camby. But the Knicks get Camby and its he is too old and doesnt fit on the Knicks. So freaking annoying.

BigBlueAL: You can argue with the fact you dont think they are the 2nd best team in the East but the article is basically saying my statistical model is a waste dont pay attention to it just to basically spite the Knicks. I dont get it.

2 reasons, I think:
1 – Steinbrenner’s & Dolan’s big spending ways cemented an image of NY teams in general an emblem for the mindlessness and crassness of pro sports; an easy foil for story angles on the virutes of Smart Managment or Small Markets or Old-fashoned Values & Loyalty
2 – NY fans rep for arrogance & entitlement. Its easy to find a readership for anthing that takes NYers down a peg or two. Very similar, IMO, to conservative political talk radio. Both appeal to much of America’s resentment at prevalent messages that they live in a backwater and have a backward uninformed view of the world based on quaint but potentially dangerous values.

Maybe total BS on my part, (GMen aren’t viewed that way) but anyway, who cares? A Knicks lovefest from the national media isn’t immanent, but Lin got more positive pro-Knick coverage than any franchise could hope for. And the propect of proving haters wrong only adds to the fun right?

I know he is a knucklehead but if I was with the Knicks I would try to sign Blatche if the Wizards use their amnesty on him. I like Jeffries but I still want an offensive option at 4 with Camby at the 5. Maybe with a good team Blatche attitude changes at least for a year to repair his image.

jon abbey: just read that Doolittle piece, and this is one thing he’s right about:“New York will soon be trolling the veteran’s minimum market to fill out the last three or four spots on its roster and a starting 2 may well be among that motley crew.”how we fill those last four spots is huge. Grunwald needs to work some more magic a la last season.

I thought Gadz contract allowed something better than the vets min if it’s part of the deal for one of those spots. Maybe I misunderstood.

I love Jeffries, but I find it hard to believe that there’s room for another defensive-only big man when Chandler and Camby are both on the team. I think whoever the Knicks add as a back-up big man has to be an offensive player. I mean, if Jeffries is cool with coming back as a third-string power forward/center, more power to him, go sign him. But if he wants a key role – I don’t think there’s room for him with the Camby trade.

jon abbey: just read that Doolittle piece, and this is one thing he’s right about:“New York will soon be trolling the veteran’s minimum market to fill out the last three or four spots on its roster and a starting 2 may well be among that motley crew.”how we fill those last four spots is huge. Grunwald needs to work some more magic a la last season.

Finding a vet minimum player who can actually contribute in the playoffs is like finding a needle in a haystack. I can’t think of one player on a vet min. deal that provided quality minutes for a contending team. Only way for contenders to really retool right now is exceptions or S&Ts. They’re vet min. players for a reason.

The leg accessory that is JVG: Finding a vet minimum player who can actually contribute in the playoffs is like finding a needle in a haystack.I can’t think of one player on a vet min. deal that provided quality minutes for a contending team.Only way for contenders to really retool right now is exceptions or S&Ts.They’re vet min. players for a reason.

Rumors floating around about a 3 team trade plan with Orl, LA, and Hou. If Dwight signs off it is the mother load of Prospects for Orl to get about 3 future picks plus Johnson-Odom, Parsons, Jones/White, and Martin.

Novak was the leading 3 point shooter in the league, what he did in the playoffs against the best defense in the league when NY was missing multiple starters is a bit irrelevant to your original point.

and I think you’re misunderstanding me anyway: NY has a full rotation now when everyone is healthy, what they need is guys who can fill in as backups when guys are inevitably out, guys like John Lucas for the Bulls last year.

Brian Cronin: I love Jeffries, but I find it hard to believe that there’s room for another defensive-only big man when Chandler and Camby are both on the team. I think whoever the Knicks add as a back-up big man has to be an offensive player. I mean, if Jeffries is cool with coming back as a third-string power forward/center, more power to him, go sign him. But if he wants a key role – I don’t think there’s room for him with the Camby trade.

He’d be insurance in case either got hurt, which is not unlikely. But I agree a scoring big would probably see more minutes if one could be found. But I’m not no so concerned that the offense will stall this season they way it did last year. Even a partial Amare resurgence would be a big improvement. Melo, Lin, JR, and Novak are all very willing and capable shooters. If they can stay willing passers, 2 of those 5 are likely to have a hot enough hand on any given night for a chance to win if the D is stout enough to make a few key stops.

I’m just saying at this point the Knicks roster is pretty much set up as of now. I really doubt any vet. min. players really helping them out at this point barring any injuries.

The Knicks’ back-up shooting guard right now is Jason Kidd. There is definitely a spot for a shooting guard to come in and play major minutes while Shump is hurt and then still play 20 minutes when Shump returns (basically Fields’ minutes).

The leg accessory that is JVG:
I’m just saying at this point the Knicks roster is pretty much set up as of now.I really doubt any vet. min. players really helping them out at this point barring any injuries.

and there are always injuries, and NY has 10 guys total on the team right now, and one of those is the unknown James White.

Brian Cronin:
The Knicks’ back-up shooting guard right now is Jason Kidd. There is definitely a spot for a shooting guard to come in and play major minutes while Shump is hurt and then still play 20 minutes when Shump returns (basically Fields’ minutes).

Jodie Meeks would be ideal in this role, he’d be the next guy I’d be pitching hard if I was Grunwald, although he might be out of our price range.

Jodie Meeks would be ideal in this role, he’d be the next guy I’d be pitching hard if I was Grunwald, although he might be out of our price range.

Meeks’ price range will be fascinating. Same with Morrow. Are they mini-MLE guys or are they vet minimum guys? What kills me is that the Lakers and the Thunder both still have at least the mini-MLE to use. That kills me.

Ok see ya. I didn’t think you guys would be offended when vet min players would be largely ineffective and usually teams that rely on them for minutes don’t do very well in the playoffs. There are always some exceptions but for the most part it doesn’t bode well if you have to use them. Its a good thing if you’re not depending on vet min players for minutes.

The leg accessory that is JVG: Ok see ya.I didn’t think you guys would be offended when vet min players would be largely ineffective and usually teams that rely on them for minutes don’t do very well in the playoffs.There are always some exceptions but for the most part it doesn’t bode well if you have to use them.Its a good thing if you’re not depending on vet min players for minutes.

For the bball desperate, NBA TV has OKC vs Ind at 8 tonight. I don’t think it’s live.
Notables for Ind are Miles Plumlee and Crazy Lance Stephenson (someone on here mentioned he’s playing PG this summer)

For OKC, Perry Jones and Reggie Jackson. Disappointed Thabeet’s not on the summer roster.

Amazingly, if the Knicks go after Dahntay Jones using Gadzuric’s non-guaranteed contract, they may have to use Mike Bibby or Baron Davis in a sign-and-trade to make the salaries balance. Bibby or Davis would be guaranteed the 10 year veteran’s minimum of $1.4 million for one year ($762k paid by Indiana, the rest by the NBA), the last two years of his contract would be non-guaranteed. Gadzuric would be released and Jones would move to the Knicks at $2.8 million.

I don’t know if Indiana would do this to shed $2 million in salary. Maybe the Knicks throw in a 2018 second round pick. But it is the only way that I can see to make the salaries match.

why would people suggest shump was terrible on offense he wasn’t great but he was certainly not terrible. As someone cited his season stats broken down into thirds. He was pretty effective toward the end of the season. He is quick as fuck and his shot got much better throughout the season. The steals he obtains lead to easy transition baskets. He certainly has a lot to work offensively in order to be an all star but i think the potential is there. terrible at offense c’mon? TD was terrible. fields was terrible toward the end of the season.

ephus:
Amazingly, if the Knicks go after Dahntay Jones using Gadzuric’s non-guaranteed contract, they may have to use Mike Bibby or Baron Davis in a sign-and-trade to make the salaries balance.Bibby or Davis would be guaranteed the 10 year veteran’s minimum of $1.4 million for one year ($762k paid by Indiana, the rest by the NBA), the last two years of his contract would be non-guaranteed.Gadzuric would be released and Jones would move to the Knicks at $2.8 million.

I don’t know if Indiana would do this to shed $2 million in salary.Maybe the Knicks throw in a 2018 second round pick.But it is the only way that I can see to make the salaries match.

If that happens how weird would it be to have so many former teammates of Melo as Knicks which were not apart of the trade. Crazy. I know Camby and Jones were gone by the trade but still.

No no no, saw him a lot when he was at GS. Bummed that Dorell Wright did get traded and is now unavailable. Far and away the best shooter available (sort of — RSA) is Brandon Rush, way better than the names I have seen floatin’ around here (45% on 3’s last year, good size, plays defense). GS may indeed match, but can we find out?

yellowboy90:
Marco Belineli is still out there. He doesn’t give you D but he can shoot.

I should add the Knicks are truly kickin’ ass right now with signings. Just a month ago it looked like Novak and/or JR would walk and we would never have gotten Kidd or Camby. This is SO much better than just a month ago. . . . . . . .

Glew:
i’m so stoked for this team next year i think on paper they are better than the best knicks teams of the 90s what do you guys think?

Riley’s Knick teams didnt have great rosters man-for-man but a couple of them were great teams. The 1993 Knicks won 60 games which was best in the East and the 1994 Knicks won 57 but had a point differential of a 60 win team and of course were 1 game away from being NBA champions.

Van Gundy’s teams had better rosters individually to me but except for 1997 when they won 57 games they usually had mediocre regular season (mostly due to injuries) before having success in the playoffs. Van Gundy’s teams also swept 4 different playoff series (Riley’s teams didnt sweep any) granted 3 of them were in the 1st round when they were best of 5.

From 1992-2000 (9 seasons) the Knicks won 50 games or more 6 times, reached the 2nd round every season, the conference finals 4 times and the NBA Finals twice. For this team to be talked about in that group to me they have to win at least 50 games during the regular season and win at least 1 playoff series.

Ewing was the key to those Riley teams. He was one of the top ten players in the NBA yearly. That made building the rest of the team a lot easier as he could carry them a lot on both offense and on defense. Imagine if Tyson Chandler had a sweet J. That was Ewing.

Brian Cronin:
Ewing was the key to those Riley teams. He was one of the top ten players in the NBA yearly. That made building the rest of the team a lot easier as he could carry them a lot on both offense and on defense. Imagine if Tyson Chandler had a sweet J. That was Ewing.

I do not think Dwight Howard’s game (as opposed to his statistics) compares to Ewing’s. Ewing had range to 18 feet (and was good for the occasional 3 pointer – like the dagger against the Celtics), Howard made 7 shots from beyond 10 feet all season. Ewing had a more effective back-to-the-basket game. But Howard is stronger, quicker and more explosive. Howard runs a lot more PnR than Ewing ever did.

On defense, Howard is a much more effective rebounder than Ewing ever was. Of course, with Charles Oakley patrolling the boards, Ewing was not required to concentrate on defensive rebounding. Both were very strong post defenders, but Howard’s quickness makes him a more effective help defender.

Howard has always struck me as a poor man’s Olajuwon. Howard has nothing approaching the Dream Shake, but they are similar in size, quickness and defensive presence.

The changes in the illegal defense rules have really changed the post-up and isolation game. Back in Ewing’s era, he could establish deep post position knowing that no one could come to double until he caught the ball. The help defender had to leave once the ball was passed out of the post, so the re-post was really effective. I doubt that even Kevin McHale (greatest low post moves in history IMO) could have been consistently effective in the low post under the current rules.

I do not think Dwight Howard’s game (as opposed to his statistics) compares to Ewing’s. Ewing had range to 18 feet (and was good for the occasional 3 pointer – like the dagger against the Celtics), Howard made 7 shots from beyond 10 feet all season. Ewing had a more effective back-to-the-basket game. But Howard is stronger, quicker and more explosive. Howard runs a lot more PnR than Ewing ever did.

On defense, Howard is a much more effective rebounder than Ewing ever was. Of course, with Charles Oakley patrolling the boards, Ewing was not required to concentrate on defensive rebounding. Both were very strong post defenders, but Howard’s quickness makes him a more effective help defender.

Howard has always struck me as a poor man’s Olajuwon. Howard has nothing approaching the Dream Shake, but they are similar in size, quickness and defensive presence.

Oh yeah, they’re not similar in skills. Just in talent. They’re both one of the top ten players in the league every year.

Ewing actually was a very good defensive rebounder. He finished 2nd in defensive rebounding % a couple of times and finished in the Top 5 a few other times as well. Even when he was older in his last 2 seasons with the Knicks (1999 and 2000) he finished 3rd and 6th in the league in defensive rebounding %.

He is not quite as good as Dwight Howard obviously who has finished 1st twice and is also one of the better offensive rebounders in the league. Ewing never went to the offensive boards (really was tough considering he was shooting all the time lol).

JC Knickfan: Take J. Lin example, he play on Dallas summer league team and parlay that into 2 offers. Both GSW and Dallas gave offers, but took he took GSW.Lin from bay area so GSW had advantage.Machado from NY so with equal contract Knicks have the advantage.

Yes, I know Houston lost all their PG so promise playing time could give them the advantage. Anyway I presume GM Glen will keep 2 roster spot open and see summer league goes.Imagine getting another hidden Gem!

man I hope so cuz Grunny is on a roll. Critics disagree and say crap like “there the Knicks go adding big names again for 2 much money” but I think Grunny’s making solid additions around our trio. If we can keep Lin and Chandler healthy..those same people will be raving about what a bargain Camby and Kidd were. Given our limited room to add..I think Grunny has done very well in addressing what we lacked. It’s up to the coaches now. Good thing we haven’t added guys who don’t improve chemistry.

jon abbey: Jodie Meeks would be ideal in this role, he’d be the next guy I’d be pitching hard if I was Grunwald, although he might be out of our price range.

What is Philly doing? How can they let Sweet Lou go for the midlevel? If they let Meeks walk too, I just don’t know…
Also the Brand thing was weird. He’s a huge expiring now. Why not ax him last year?
They must be going after a young pf with Iggy, right?

Meanwhile, ATL basically switched a 17 mil talent for a 5 mil equal talent. I love what Ferry’s doing down there. It feels weird for the Hawks to be making shrewd moves…

Yes, Ewing was a very good defensive rebounder. But he was not the defensive rebounder that Dwight Howard has been. Ewing had Oakley to help clean the boards on defense, Howard has played with a series of stretch 4s.

ephus:
Yes, Ewing was a very good defensive rebounder.But he was not the defensive rebounder that Dwight Howard has been.Ewing had Oakley to help clean the boards on defense, Howard has played with a series of stretch 4s.

If the Rockets pull this off, all of their moves would suddenly make a lot more sense. They’ve really placed themselves nicely into a position to either get Howard or (and I think this is the really clever bit) get Bynum if the Howard thing doesn’t work out. The Lowry deal was the key. That unusual “has to be a lottery” pick makes it such an enticing piece to Orlando.

ephus:
I do not think Dwight Howard’s game (as opposed to his statistics) compares to Ewing’s.Ewing had range to 18 feet (and was good for the occasional 3 pointer – like the dagger against the Celtics), Howard made 7 shots from beyond 10 feet all season.Ewing had a more effective back-to-the-basket game.But Howard is stronger, quicker and more explosive.Howard runs a lot more PnR than Ewing ever did.

On defense, Howard is a much more effective rebounder than Ewing ever was.Of course, with Charles Oakley patrolling the boards, Ewing was not required to concentrate on defensive rebounding.Both were very strong post defenders, but Howard’s quickness makes him a more effective help defender.

Howard has always struck me as a poor man’s Olajuwon.Howard has nothing approaching the Dream Shake, but they are similar in size, quickness and defensive presence.

I agree, sorta. Olajuwon at his peak was the best center I’ve ever watched. Patrick at is peak was close but Olajuwon’s quickiness and touch were ridiculous. The biggest difference between Howard and either one is drive to win. It’s hard to imagine Patrick or Olajuwon ever mailing in a game.
As quick as Olajuwon was, I don’t think he’s very close to Howard though. I don’t know if it’s true, but Howard’s strength, leaping ability, speed, and quickness seem unique for anyone remotely his size that I’ve ever seen.

Yeah Brian it seems the Rockets really want Bynum and the Lakers obviously Howard. How the Magic pass up the trade scenarios being discussed between those teams compared to the crap scenarios involving the Nets is beyond me.

Yeah its not even close, Melo is a much better player than Spree. Most people think Spree was better than Houston and while defensively he certainly looked better, statistically Houston was better than Spree too and Melo is much better than Houston. Spree’s inefficiency on offense is pretty epic lol

back to my man Shumpie for a sec: take it FWIW (not a lot), but I only own shirts of two professional athletes, a SHUMP SHUMP shirt from last year and a GOT MELKY? t-shirt from 2008 or 2009. does that mean Shumpie also has an All-Star MVP in his future? :)

2FOR18: I’m gonna guess that melo and Spree at their best were very similar overall.Now I’m gonna go look at the numbers and see how wrong I am.

Well Spree’s Knicks advanced stats are terrible, but his best season in 96-97 with GS is a good approximation of a good melo year overall:
.570 TS%, .500 EFG%, 8.1 winshares, .115 WS/48. with a much better assist % of 27 but worse reb % of 6.5.

Interestingly, despite Houston’s rep as a great shooter and melo’s as a chucker, they have an almost identical career TS% and similar eFG% due to melo going to the line so often.

back to my man Shumpie for a sec: take it FWIW (not a lot), but I only own shirts of two professional athletes, a SHUMP SHUMP shirt from last year and a GOT MELKY? t-shirt from 2008 or 2009. does that mean Shumpie also has an All-Star MVP in his future? :)

I did not see, in a million years, melky becoming this good. It looks like he really got himself in shape; he used to look like he had the Homer Simpson beer and donuts training regimen.

If Houston wouldve shot more 3pters (career 40%) and gotten to the FT line more (career 86%) he wouldve been a great offensive player. His career TS% for a pretty high usage SG is not that bad but again he couldve been such a better offensive player with better shot selection and not relying so much on his mid-range game. He had some flashes of brilliance during games when he would decide to just drive to the hoop that you would get frustrated he wouldnt do it more often.

Nets president Billy King and Lopez’s agent, Arn Tellem, are finalizing the length of the deal – four years for $58 million, or five years for $78 million – and ironing out protections on the back end to account for a right foot that Lopez broke twice in the past year, sources said.

I think we should kick the tires on Vince Carter if we can’t get Dahntay Jones. Vince can still shoot the 3, and he put up a .152 WS/48 in the 22 games he played before getting traded to Phoenix (so I assume being on another EC contender would do him justice). That, and I sorta want to see Vince Carter in a Knicks jersey.

Nets president Billy King and Lopez’s agent, Arn Tellem, are finalizing the length of the deal – four years for $58 million, or five years for $78 million – and ironing out protections on the back end to account for a right foot that Lopez broke twice in the past year, sources said.

WHY IN THE WORLD would the Magic want that contract????

I don’t think they do, that’s one of the problems. anyway, it says in the same piece that once he signs, he can’t be dealt until December, so that should end that.

Brian Cronin: By the way, if the Nets don’t get Howard, shouldn’t they just bring the Hump back? I know they’d be paying tons of luxury tax dollars, but their owner can afford it, no?

If they don’t you’ll be looking at Reggie Evans probably being the starting PF for them. We all love Reggie here but having him as your starting PF (has never played more than 26 min/game, averages 19/game for his career and 5.5 fouls per 36 last year) can’t be a good idea. Othewrise you’d have Teletovic + Brook who COMBINED didn’t average as many rebounds per 36 as Tyson did last year.

They’ll end up overpaying for Hump – and good for him. He’s been a good soldier for them, got totally screwed by those Kardashians – and he’s a very solid player IMHO.

Unreason: I agree, sorta. Olajuwon at his peak was the best center I’ve ever watched. Patrick at is peak was close but Olajuwon’s quickiness and touch were ridiculous. The biggest difference between Howard and either one is drive to win. It’s hard to imagine Patrick or Olajuwon ever mailing in a game.As quick as Olajuwon was, I don’t think he’s very close to Howard though. I don’t know if it’s true, but Howard’s strength, leaping ability, speed, and quickness seem unique for anyone remotely his size that I’ve ever seen.

The Dream was twice the all-around player that Howard is, and it isn’t even close. Keep in mind that he played during the “golden age” of NBA big men. He also was as athletic as any big man who ever played. He absolutely dominated an in his prime Patrick Ewing and a young Shaq in his ’90s finals appearances. Howard would have been the 4th best center back then, behind Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. Just because Howard has virtually no competition on a nightly basis, he looks like Superman. Believe me, he isn’t.

Frank: If they don’t you’ll be looking at Reggie Evans probably being the starting PF for them. We all love Reggie here but having him as your starting PF (has never played more than 26 min/game, averages 19/game for his career and 5.5 fouls per 36 last year) can’t be a good idea. Othewrise you’d have Teletovic + Brook who COMBINED didn’t average as many rebounds per 36 as Tyson did last year.

They’ll end up overpaying for Hump – and good for him. He’s been a good soldier for them, got totally screwed by those Kardashians – and he’s a very solid player IMHO.