What I know, is that your group was excommunicated, with the authority of Metropolitan Paul. I understand that by virtue of that, you are no longer part of the vicariate, or Orthodox for that matter.You were exaggerating when you said that the Archbishop was only here for 30mins or an 1 hour! You said in your letter, that you received no financial aid, but during the Archbishop's visit, you DID receive money. You have already been reported by Fr. Aniceto to His Eminence way back 2 months ago, and apparantly he approved of your excommunication.Because of your behavior, the vicariate was divided, by your mebers who joined you, and those who remained in the Archbishop's care.

In your letter, you don't seem to acknowledge that BEFORE Fr. Aniceto was chrismated and ordained a priest, he was YOUR superior. He was your head bishop if I clearly remeber. Your letter sems to imply, that it was he who YOU accomodated INTO the Church, when it was the other way around!

Also, there MIGHT be some monetary issues revolving around your excommunication..

To ozgeorge:

The issue with GodIsGoodHeSavesMe is about, some FORMER members of the Davao vicariate of the Antiochian Church who were dissatisfied with the vicar-general leadership. The EP priest in Mindanao, has toldme that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Philippines now officially recognize, the Antiochian missions as canonical ones. (Whew! Im glad that was fixed! )

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Dear Mr. George,I would have to reply to your inquiries since you mentioned my name along with GodIsGoodHeSavesMe. I also want to understand thoroughly just what is going on because there is definitely something wrong going on in the Philippines.

As I understand it, the Protestant Churches in the Phillipines want to come to Orthodoxy, but have reservations about the method with which it being done. Is this correct?

As I understand it, the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines [EP] have reservations about accepting the former Evangelicals who were seeking entrance into canonical Orthodoxy though the Greek Orthodox jurisdiction. An objection was even raised here by one of the EP faithful that these Evangelicals want to become Orthodox "on their own terms" with a "modified" Liturgy which is totally unacceptable both for the Greek authorities and the native Filipino Orthodox faithful under the Greek Jurisdiction [EP]. Let me quote the exact words here:

The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard. We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise.

Now I totally agree with their objections and condemnation of this shameful anomaly! Observers have reported how the Orthodox priests from this jurisdiction conduct their "modified" Liturgy which does not resemble any of the canonical Orthodox liturgical rites or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Their priests (and even the Vicars themselves) are actually using a "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass with the same unleavened wafers used by the Roman Catholic priests. Their priests says the Mass exactly the same way Roman Catholic priests "says" them; with Roman Catholic vestments and the celebrant facing the people and with the congregation singing the same hymns sung in Roman Catholic Masses in the Philippines. GodIsGoodHeSavesMe and even Soma_hatori can confirm my statement.

Also, I understand that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is already in the Phillipines and is "ignoring" the Antiochians.So why don't the Protestant Churches which have reservations about the Antiochians (but want to come to Orthodoxy) approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate?

Its not only the clergy and the faithful under the EP in the Philippines who ignores the Antiochians but the Antiochian clergy and faithful themselves ignores the EP clergy and faithful in the Philippines as well (please read Sohma's confirmation of this fact). That they BOTH ignore each other is evidenced by the absence of any representatives from the EP during the clandestine pastoral visit(s) of the Primate of the Philippines in Manila, Davao and elsewhere (who knows exactly where? it was never mentioned in their offical website up to this moment!) for the chrismation of its ??6,000 members and the ordinations of former Evangelical and Independent Catholic clergymen (who knows how many and when they were ordained? it was never mentioned in their official website as well!). Does that does not even make you wonder??

The Evangelicals have no reservations about the Antiochians because the Antiochians have no reservations about the Evangelicals as evidenced by the "modified" Novus Ordo Roman Catholic Masses they "say" during their "orthodox" worship.

As I understand it, the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines [EP] have reservations about accepting the former Evangelicals who were seeking entrance into canonical Orthodoxy though the Greek Orthodox jurisdiction. An objection was even raised here by one of the EP faithful that these Evangelicals want to become Orthodox "on their own terms" with a "modified" Liturgy which is totally unacceptable both for the Greek authorities and the native Filipino Orthodox faithful under the Greek Jurisdiction [EP]. Let me quote the exact words here:

The voice of the Orthodox Christians in the Philippines must be heard. We want nothing less than the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Any "modified" liturgy must be rejected, with no compromise.

What I don't understand is whether those Evangelicals seeking conversion to Orthodoxy actually want to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It seems they want to use the modified Liturgy. Is there a division between the Evangelicals about which Liturgy to use? If so, couldn't those wishing to use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom join the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and those wanting the modified Liturgy join the Antiochians?Is the modified Liturgy being imposed by the Antiochians against the will of the Evangelicals? If so, it certainly seems strange to me that a Liturgy based on the RC Novos Ordo should be imposed on former Evangelicals. It doesn't make much sense, and it seems there would be no difference to imposing the DL of St. John Chrysostom anyway.

Now I totally agree with their objections and condemnation of this shameful anomaly! Observers have reported how the Orthodox priests from this jurisdiction conduct their "modified" Liturgy which does not resemble any of the canonical Orthodox liturgical rites or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Their priests (and even the Vicars themselves) are actually using a "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass with the same unleavened wafers used by the Roman Catholic priests. Their priests says the Mass exactly the same way Roman Catholic priests "says" them; with Roman Catholic vestments and the celebrant facing the people and with the congregation singing the same hymns sung in Roman Catholic Masses in the Philippines. GodIsGoodHeSavesMe and even Soma_hatori can confirm my statement.

Am I understanding correctly that the resentment and resistance is about being a Western Rite Church? If so, I have to say that this was not clear until now, even with the letter posted by GodIsGoodHeSavesMe. I think if this is made clearer to Archbishop Paul Saliba, he would be more than happy to accommodate this and get them to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I really think this can be resolved if this is the case. I am willing to help in any way I can to assist in finding a resolution to this which suits all the parties. I am in Australia and under the EP, (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia).

Its not only the clergy and the faithful under the EP in the Philippines who ignores the Antiochians but the Antiochian clergy and faithful themselves ignores the EP clergy and faithful in the Philippines as well (please read Sohma's confirmation of this fact). That they BOTH ignore each other is evidenced by the absence of any representatives from the EP during the clandestine pastoral visit(s) of the Primate of the Philippines in Manila, Davao and elsewhere (who knows exactly where? it was never mentioned in their offical website up to this moment!) for the chrismation of its ??6,000 members and the ordinations of former Evangelical and Independent Catholic clergymen (who knows how many and when they were ordained? it was never mentioned in their official website as well!). Does that does not even make you wonder??

The simple reality is that the EP tends to be suspicious of Antiochian Western Rites. We don't have any Western Rites in the EP, but we do have less of a problem with ROCOR Western Rite Orthodox Churches than with Antiochian ones. ROCOR WR Churches are perceived as being "more thought out" than Antiochian ones (whether this perception is right or wrong). But at the same time, we also have a great respect for the Antiochian Patriarchate, so there is an "interesting" situation of maintaining Communion while not always agreeing on methods.

The Evangelicals have no reservations about the Antiochians because the Antiochians have no reservations about the Evangelicals as evidenced by the "modified" Novus Ordo Roman Catholic Masses they "say" during their "orthodox" worship.

Sometimes, I think it actually is better that we ignore things. The reality is that as long as the Antiochians are in Communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, their Western Rite Liturgies are technically Liturgies of the Orthodox Church. Perhaps its better just to leave it at that and ignore the problems we may have with it rather than allow it to become a cause of division. Those Orthodox Christians who wish to use the DL of St. John Chrysotom are free to join jurisdictions which use it, but if the will to use it isn't there, what else can we do?

« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 09:08:16 PM by ozgeorge »

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What I don't understand is whether those Evangelicals seeking conversion to Orthodoxy actually want to use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It seems they want to use the modified Liturgy.

Your observation could be accurate and I agree. But it appears that they want to use the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass than the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and the re-constructed canonical Western Rite Liturgy of Saint Gregory or Saint Tikhon etc. which are being used by canonical Western Rite Orthodox priests under Russia and Antioch.

Is there a division between the Evangelicals about which Liturgy to use? If so, couldn't those wishing to use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom join the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and those wanting the modified Liturgy join the Antiochians?

I have received letters coming from their faithful which expresses their disapproval of the use this "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite by their priests. Let me quote one of the said letters (Note: names have been witheld:

"I had some three instances attending a small community of about 10 people for a sunday mass , these were catholics who thought Fr. ______ as a catholic priest since he introduces the orthodoxy as "Antiochian Orthodox Catholic Church" I know the difference because I had degree on Religious Studies. But these common people (not regular church goers, he performed it in most rural areas) doesnt know anything about it. They cannot tell the difference because Fr.______ celebrates it in the Roman Catholic Holy Eucharistic Rites. I couldn't just take the lies anymore, I stopped attending.. "

Is the modified Liturgy being imposed by the Antiochians against the will of the Evangelicals? If so, it certainly seems strange to me that a Liturgy based on the RC Novos Ordo should be imposed on former Evangelicals. It doesn't make much sense, and it seems there would be no difference to imposing the DL of St. John Chrysostom anyway.

Sorry, I don't have any reports which says that this modified ROman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass is being imposed by Antioch against the will of the Filipino Orthodox priests under their jurisdiction.

Am I understanding correctly that the resentment and resistance is about being Western Rite Church? If so, I have to say that this was not clear until now....

The resentment and resistance in the Greek [EP] side is not the issue of being "Western Rite" but the use of the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass which has no place in canonical Orthdox worship. Things will be less complicated if priests from this jurisdiction will use the approved Western Rite Liturgies, or better, the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

The resentment and resistance in the Greek [EP] side is not the issue of being "Western Rite" but the use of the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass which has no place in canonical Orthdox worship. Things will be less complicated if priests from this jurisdiction will use the approved Western Rite Liturgies, or better, the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

Thank you, this clarifies the position tremendously for me!So the issue, I understand, is not simply that it is Western Rite, but rather, that it appears deceptive in a predominantly Roman Catholic country to have an Orthodox Church which looks exactly like a Roman Catholic Church.I think that many European Orthodox Churches can understand this concern, because it echoes their experience with Eastern Rite Catholic Churches in their own counties which look exactly like Orthodox Churches, but are in fact not in Communion with the Orthodox Church, but rather with the Vatican.I think this needs to be made clear to His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 09:57:02 PM by ozgeorge »

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Thank you, this clarifies the position tremendously for me!So the issue, I understand, is not simply that it is Western Rite, but rather, that it appears deceptive in a predominantly Roman Catholic country to have an Orthodox Church which looks exactly like a Roman Catholic Church................I think this needs to be made clear to His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba.

I understand that this is no longer an "issue" because according to Sohma the Greek [EP] side has also accepted as canonical the "modified" Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Rite of the Mass which the Filipino priests under Antioch use in their "orthodox" worship. Please refer to Sohma's recent post which seems to imply that fact:

To ozgeorge:The EP priest in Mindanao, has toldme that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Philippines now officially recognize, the Antiochian missions as canonical ones. (Whew! Im glad that was fixed! )

Hence, there should no longer be "resentments" and "resistance" on both sides from now on (if this is true?) and clergymen and faithful from the Greek (EP) side should now be invited and present during every "Primate of the Philippines" pastoral visits in the country which from now on should not be held clandestinely and that details of chrismations and ordinations in the Philippines should now be published in the official website of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia.

The main issue now is this and please find time to read it carefully all over it again:

I am in no way an employee of Jeptah Aniceto and never was. I can see how he still can lie through his teeth now. The evidence you have at hand is basically a one-sided, it must just be his words against mine. You have heard him but you haven't been into the areas (the supposed churches as listed in that website). Were you able to talk to the people in those areas other than Aniceto? Were you able to talk to the people whose names were listed on that webpage?

The first lie, he used these people just so he have "people" to present to Archbishop few months back. How long did the Archbishop stayed with the congregation? 30mins, an hour? There was a confrontation among the people and Aniceto because most of these people didn't understand what was going on but the Archbishop didn't understand it simply because Aniceto didn't even give anyone a chance to have an open forum with the Archbishop. (posted with permission): Take note.. there are more coming...

He might be able to destroy my integrity as a person and the integrity of the people he fooled here. But he will never be able to destroy the integrity of the TRUTH itself.

This is the real "issue" now. Thank you GodIsGoodHeSavesMe for taking the courage to expose these anomalies; the lies and deceptions. May God strengthen you more in this noble undertaking. I will be praying for you and Pastor Abraham Igar. Brethren and friends, please pray for them.

What I know, is that your group was excommunicated, with the authority of Metropolitan Paul. I understand that by virtue of that, you are no longer part of the vicariate, or Orthodox for that matter.

You really don't have an idea who I am, right? I have not been chrismated yet so there is no sense in pushing about me being excommunicated by the Metropolitan Paul. You must be referring to Igar, but well.. thanks because I found out, if Aniceto did excommunicated him it must have been after Igar declined to be a part of Aniceto's plan when WE SAW how he has been doing things around here. FYI, it was Aniceto who have been begging me to support him and be chrismated (because he knows he can use me if I agreed) even long before I met the so called "excommunicados" and yes, he can have the pleasure to term me as excommunicado as well. And so do you. I was hesitant because I know him personally. If he could lie to me, he could lie to anyone else, he could lie to his mom then he could lie to you and to the orthodoxy. I came out because I couldn't take the lies anymore.

You said in your letter, that you received no financial aid, but during the Archbishop's visit, you DID receive money. You have already been reported by Fr. Aniceto to His Eminence way back 2 months ago, and apparantly he approved of your excommunication.

This was just a strategy made by Aniceto to save himself from any future legal confrontations AFTER I withdrew any support from him and sensing how Igar has been slowly declining supporting him.

In your letter, you don't seem to acknowledge that BEFORE Fr. Aniceto was chrismated and ordained a priest, he was YOUR superior. He was your head bishop if I clearly remeber. Your letter sems to imply, that it was he who YOU accomodated INTO the Church, when it was the other way around!

What kind of a leader will he be abandoning his so-called "flock" for years and coming back telling lies about being abroad and seeking help outside thus he had the orthodoxy at hand while he was in the same city living with a woman for a year?

Hence, there should no longer be "resentments" and "resistance" on both sides from now on (if this is true?) and clergymen and faithful from the Greek (EP) side should now be invited and present during every "Primate of the Philippines" pastoral visits in the country which from now on should not be held clandestinely

This seems to me to echo concerns that many people have of the Orthodox Church in Counties like the Philipines, Greece, Australia, the UK and the USA where multiple jurisdictions exist simultaneously. For example, here in Australia, there is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Romanian Patriarchate, the Serbian Patriarchate etc. To those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy, this looks like disunity, but in fact, it is an expression of genuine "unity in diversity". The Orthodox Church is united in Faith, not administration, and there exists a bond of trust between the different jurisdictions which allows them to act independantly of one another. Yet we are all in Communion, and, here in Australia, we emphasise this with "Pan-Orthodox" Liturgies, Commissions etc. This unity of Faith is more important than differences of opinion as to how things ought to be done. As I said, the EP has no Western Rite parishes or monasteries, but it hasn't broken Communion with Antioch over their Western Rite Churches. The philosophy seems to be "let them do things as they see fit". What you should also know is that every Orthodox jurisdiction has the right to appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for an adjudication when a dispute arises. This was the case recently with the Jerusalem Patriarchate, when the Synod of the Jerusalem Patriarchate took a "vote of no confidence" in the former Patriarch of Jerusalem and appealed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The EP then summoned a Pan-Orthodox "Endomousa Synod" which upheld and ratified the decision of the Synod of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and deposed the former Patriarch.

and that details of chrismations and ordinations in the Philippines should now be published in the official website of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia.

I'm not sure why this needs to be a requirement. It's not a requirement of any other Orthodox Jurisdiction, so why should it be a requirement of the Antiochians? Certainly, an Orthodox Church is required to keep other Orthodox Churches informed of who it's clergy are and who is a member, but this is normally on a "need to know" basis and is in the form of letters of recommendation, certificates etc. For example, if an Antiochian Orthodox Christian wishes to Sponsor at the Baptism of a Greek Orthodox Christian and they are unknown to the celebrant of the Baptism, they are usually required to provide their own Baptisimal Certificate as well as a letter of recommendation from their Parish Priest to say they are an Orthodox Christian in good standing. And if their Priest is not known to the celebrant, then he would provide a letter of recommendation from his Bishop. This is how things have been done in the Orthodox Church for centuries. The internet is a new phenomenon, and in terms of "Orthodox Time", it hasn't even been born yet!

I am in no way an employee of Jeptah Aniceto and never was. I can see how he still can lie through his teeth now. The evidence you have at hand is basically a one-sided, it must just be his words against mine. You have heard him but you haven't been into the areas (the supposed churches as listed in that website). Were you able to talk to the people in those areas other than Aniceto? Were you able to talk to the people whose names were listed on that webpage?

The first lie, he used these people just so he have "people" to present to Archbishop few months back. How long did the Archbishop stayed with the congregation? 30mins, an hour? There was a confrontation among the people and Aniceto because most of these people didn't understand what was going on but the Archbishop didn't understand it simply because Aniceto didn't even give anyone a chance to have an open forum with the Archbishop. (posted with permission): Take note.. there are more coming...

The issue with GodIsGoodHeSavesMe is about, some FORMER members of the Davao vicariate of the Antiochian Church who were dissatisfied with the vicar-general leadership.

As I understand, the former members of the Davao Vicariate have been excommunicated from the Vicariate. Is this correct? If so, then what is the problem? If they no longer wish to belong to the Orthodox Church in Davao for whatever reason (including perceived deception), that's fine- no one is imposing Orthodoxy on them. If they wish to be reconciled with their Bishop or appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate to receive them, then thats fine also, but no one is forcing them. Let them go their way in Peace, they have to make their own choices.

But is seems to me that this has become an issue of "personalities", with one "personality" picking up his bat and ball and saying "I don't want to play any more" and walking away with the members of his team who wish to follow him, and this seems to be based an a sense of being personally insulted, as indicated by:

I disagree. The real issue is, and always has been the salvation of souls. Those who are outside of the Orthodox Church through no fault of their own will be judged by our merciful God who wants the Salvation of all. Those who of their own volition leave the Orthodox Church also depend on the mercy of God, but they once made a promise to God and have not fulfilled it. They have said "yes" to God and then said "no". As the psalmist says: "Vow and pay your vows to the Lord our God..." (Psalm 75:11 LXX)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 01:27:38 AM by ozgeorge »

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It's not a requirement of any other Orthodox Jurisdiction, so why should it be a requirement of the Antiochians? Certainly, an Orthodox Church is required to keep other Orthodox Churches informed of who it's clergy are and who is a member, but this is normally on a "need to know" basis and is in the form of letters of recommendation, certificates etc. For example, if an Antiochian Orthodox Christian wishes to Sponsor at the Baptism of a Greek Orthodox Christian and they are unknown to the celebrant of the Baptism, they are usually required to provide their own Baptisimal Certificate as well as a letter of recommendation from their Parish Priest to say they are an Orthodox Christian in good standing. And if their Priest is not known to the celebrant, then he would provide a letter of recommendation from his Bishop. This is how things have been done in the Orthodox Church for centuries. The internet is a new phenomenon, and in terms of "Orthodox Time", it hasn't even been born yet!

Just as in ancient times, forgery becomes easier with technology. Anyone can type up official and canonical looking documents saying that they were baptized by Father <so and so> who was ordained by Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such>, etc. Do people really call to verify the existence of Father <so and so> or Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such> and whether or not these people are canonical Orthodox Clergy and not someone with phony papers that can say anything?

Just as in ancient times, forgery becomes easier with technology. Anyone can type up official and canonical looking documents saying that they were baptized by Father <so and so> who was ordained by Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such>, etc.

Do people really call to verify the existence of Father <so and so> or Bishop/Metropolitan <such and such> and whether or not these people are canonical Orthodox Clergy and not someone with phony papers that can say anything?

In my experience, yes they do check. The Godmother of one of my nephews baptized in the GO Archdiocese in Sydney is a member of the Antiocian Church in Melbourne. She had to produce her letter of recommendation and Birth Certificate to the Priest, who then checked with the then Antiochian Metropolitan Archbishop of Sydney that the Priest was indeed one of his Priests and then spoke to the Priest himself to confirm the letter. This probably goes back to your first point that we should never take anything in print on face value, particularly in these times, and the internet, if anything has confirmed this with so much conflicting information abounding on it (as is the case in this thread).

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

This probably goes back to your first point that we should never take anything in print on face value, particularly in these times, and the internet, if anything has confirmed this with so much conflicting information abounding on it (as is the case in this thread).

This thread reminds me of American Orthodoxy in the 1910's and 1920's in that Orthodoxy in the Phillippines is following the same chaotic path which will eventually reach entropy by the 22nd Century, give or take a few decades, lol. In a decade, someone will be the Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Philippine Church or something with a snazzy abbreviation.

This thread reminds me of American Orthodoxy in the 1910's and 1920's in that Orthodoxy in the Phillippines is following the same chaotic path which will eventually reach entropy by the 22nd Century, give or take a few decades, lol. In a decade, someone will be the Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Philippine Church or something with a snazzy abbreviation.

Unfortunately, this is the history of the Church for two millenia.Every heresy and every schism has been the result of a power struggle.But as Our Lord says:“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew 13:24-29)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 02:28:51 AM by ozgeorge »

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as for now,i'll not be taking sides.. regardless.. I respect the decisions of His Eminence Saliba, and i don't care if the vicariate im in is having all these controversies, I want to serve the Archdiocese, and since His Eminence has called me to be chrismated and made a sub-deacon, I will follow his call, because He is vested in the authority of my God.

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

as for now,i'll not be taking sides.. regardless.. I respect the decisions of His Eminence Saliba, and i don't care if the vicariate im in is having all these controversies, I want to serve the Archdiocese, and since His Eminence has called me to be chrismated and made a sub-deacon, I will follow his call, because He is vested in the authority of my God.

I think this is the best attitude to go about the whole thing, and I agree with it. It should not affect us in our Faith, but should rather strengthen us. Let the matter be resolved by those who should resolve it; that is not in our hands, but those given authority to handle it.

To my knowledge, it wasHis Eminence who probably allowed them to use the modified rite. When the Archbishop comes on his visits here, he celebrates liturgy in according to St. John Chrysostom. Fr. Aniceto and the other priests said that, all the parishes will soon adopt the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, as they said, and i qoute, "in due time".

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

]I'm sad to hear that are such a problems in Philippines. Orthodoxy is such a nice and wonderful faith. Trust in God, am pray to him, He is the solution for all world problems. [/quote]

There really seems to be a problem between the EP and the Antiochian Orthodox church's presence in the Philippines. A friend of mine, a former priest of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC) in the Southern Luzon area (Bicol region) and now coordinator for missions in our province recently alerted me, through SMS, of a definite warning supposedly issued by Bp. Nectarios to all the EP priests that the Antiochian orthodox church in the Philippines is uncanonical. This is a sad event if true.anybody can verify this, please?

There really seems to be a problem between the EP and the Antiochian Orthodox church's presence in the Philippines. A friend of mine, a former priest of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC) in the Southern Luzon area (Bicol region) and now coordinator for missions in our province recently alerted me, through SMS, of a definite warning supposedly issued by Bp. Nectarios to all the EP priests that the Antiochian orthodox church in the Philippines is uncanonical. This is a sad event if true.anybody can verify this, please?

Well, I am an Antiochian Orthodox Christian in the Philippines, and we are certainly NOT uncanonical! His Eminence Metropolitan Saliba, is a canonical heirarch, appointed by His Holiness Ignatius IV to sheperd the growing flock here in the Philippines, so undoubtedly, our presence here is canonical. The information I got, from the EP priest in Koronadal, South Cotabato, suggest the opposite; the EP now considers us canonical, and that a spirit of cooperation is invoked in order to bring more Filipinos to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Vineyard of Christ.Im very happy with the developments, and I agree that instead of bickering we should cooperate. Protest and complaints aimed at ruining the progress within the Antiochian vicariate, have wounded us Orthodox Christians very much, but when His Eminence Saliba came to visit us, we were renewed with a new hope, because we know, that people who wish to ruin the church, will never succed because the Truth is on our side, God is with us! We have faced much persecution, from both protestants and Roman Catholics. Some of our members have been beaten up, mocked and insulted publicly. Some residents in the site of our communty even burned the foundation of the Church we were building! (This is in our urban poor communties in Davao).. Most of my brothers and sisters there are very poor, and can barely make ends meet, and other "Christians" , are making things worse for us. Even our priests and leaders are living in poverty! Im trying my best to get as much aid as I can, by giving out cathecism or Theological materials I got from the net, and passing it to them, (its all a kid like me can do)..It is my heartfelt wish,that our agreement of cooperation with the EP, will not only stay in words, but will translate itself into genuine action on both sides. We need their prayers more than ever, as we are always praying for the succes of our EP brothers! Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, Have Mercy on us!

By the way, philip xavier, are you a cathecumen?

« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 03:44:29 AM by sohma_hatori »

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

well not as of this moment. in my heart i'm orthodox.i still belong to what orthodox christians would call uncanonical convergence churches.I started being an inquirer in the EP last year but it did not flourish for some reason but the call of God to a journey home to orthodoxy remains.

Im glad to learn that the zeal for the house of God burns brightly in your heart and you defend it like a man on fire.maybe if you belonged to the apostolic times, you would embrace martyrdom like the apostles of old. I intended no malice when i posted that question. I just wanted to clarify the issue because my friend, who belong to the EP,indeed made such uncharitable claim. i would like to verify it directly from an antiochian orthodox christian in the philippines and im glad you responded with fire and fervor.

well not as of this moment. in my heart i'm orthodox.i still belong to what orthodox christians would call uncanonical convergence churches.I started being an inquirer in the EP last year but it did not flourish for some reason but the call of God to a journey home to orthodoxy remains.

Im glad to learn that the zeal for the house of God burns brightly in your heart and you defend it like a man on fire.maybe if you belonged to the apostolic times, you would embrace martyrdom like the apostles of old. I intended no malice when i posted that question. I just wanted to clarify the issue because my friend, who belong to the EP,indeed made such uncharitable claim. i would like to verify it directly from an antiochian orthodox christian in the philippines and im glad you responded with fire and fervor.

keep the faith...

Brother, I hope you persevere! During my times as an inquirer of the faith, I BARELY had any contact with Orthodox Christians who live in the Philippines, and for a time, I did'nt even know the EP was here! But my friends in this site help me to have contact with them, but when I tried to make contact , their was almost no response. And I understand why, my place is remote and unknown to most Manilenyos, Im still a student too, so my chances to contact them or speak to them in person are so thin. I was sad, but I continued anyway. I talked about Orthodoxy with my friends, and I was happy enough to bring my faith to my bestfriend, who is a devout Roman Catholic. Once again, I (with my bestfriend this time), tried to make contact with the EP , and this time we got a response! , Fr. Daclan, the priest in Cotabato, welcomed us, and on one of my trips dring the NSPC (National School's Press Conference), I was able to meet with him, and to speak with other Orthodox Christian brothers.Sadly, though, there was not enough resources and people to make a mission inmy hometown about 700+ kilometers away from him, so my call to the Church was once again delayed. A few months later, my bestfriend and I found out that Antiochian missionaries are here in Davao! We sent SMS messages to them asking for info and stuff, but they suggested that a priest will come to OUR place! And we were so thrilled! When Fr. Aniceto came to my hometown Butuan, he talked of plans to expand the missions of the Church, and to give what me and friend had been most eager to receive, our chrismation, the seal of the Holy Spirit! Im glad my perseverance has paid off! I have been chrismated and am doing my best to live the faith and call others to the Church. And im very glad that God called me in my youth so tat he could use my youthful energy to become an engine of service to His Church!

Brother, I hope you will one day be called! Keep up the Good fight! My prayers are with you..

Please pray for me as well..

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""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender

In the Philippines there is a conflict whether to which Jurisdiction the Philippines is in.. Greek or Antiochian?

I see what you mean now. I got confused because it is not between "Greek" and "Antiochian", but between "The Ecumenical Patriarchate" and "The Patriarchate of Antioch". You need to be careful with the use of the word "Greek", particularly in this case, since the official title of the Patriarchate of Antioch is "The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East" (see their official website here: http://www.antiochpat.org/english/sitefiles/ )

Yes, it is possible. The Church is not jurisdictionally divided by national borders, but has it's own geographical borders. Greece is an example of this. The Southern part of Greece is under the Jurisdiction of the Church of Greece, while the middle and northern parts of Greece along with the Islands of Greece are under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. This is perfectly Canonical because no two Bishops from the different jurisdictions have jurisdiction over the same geographical area. In countries which are not traditionally Orthodox, we have the problem of different jurisdictions covering the same geographical area. For example, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate and has it's own Archbishop, while the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand (and who recently added "and the Phillipines" to their title) has it's own Archbishop who covers the same geographical area. Strictly speaking, this is not canonical- there should be one Bishop in a city, not two. This problem exists also in the USA and the UK, and will eventually require a Pan-Orthodox Synod to resolve it. In the meantime, we should try to get on with one another and remember that we are one in Christ and all partakers in His Body and Blood.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

great photos, especialy the complete one on the tube.the Lord has done great things for the orthodox church in the philippines. I hope the davao vicariate can upload some of their photos too. great news indeed. Congratulations!!

It seems to me that the Novus Ordo is the liturgy of the Antiochenes in the Philippines. Will this be permanent, or will there be an eventual shift to the Byzantine Rite?

It appears so! But I haven't witnessed it myself so lets just say it is a "modified" Novus Ordo Rite of the Roman Catholic Mass they are using for their Sunday Divine Liturgy (please refer to the photos generously supplied by Aftimios)

To my knowledge, it wasHis Eminence who probably allowed them to use the modified rite. When the Archbishop comes on his visits here, he celebrates liturgy in according to St. John Chrysostom. Fr. Aniceto and the other priests said that, all the parishes will soon adopt the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, as they said, and i qoute, "in due time".

I do hope that this uncanonical rite, a liturgical anomaly, will soon cease and the Filipino "Antiochenes" will observe the canonical Liturgies (Western Rite or Byzantine etc.) of the Orthodox Church. As mentioned earlier, the local Roman Catholic faithful couldn't hardly notice the difference at all and this is not a mere allegation. All you have to do is to see the vestments worn by the "Antiochene" Orthodox priests in the attached photographs. Not only that, they sing contemporary Roman Catholic hymns of the Novus Ordo Mass in their Liturgy! Sohma_hatori and GodIsGoodHeSavesMe can verify that fact.

So the issue, I understand, is not simply that it is Western Rite, but rather, that it appears deceptive in a predominantly Roman Catholic country to have an Orthodox Church which looks exactly like a Roman Catholic Church......I think this needs to be made clear to His Eminence, Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba.

all the parishes will soon adopt the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, as they said, and i qoute, "in due time".

Clearly the adapted Rite is only temporary, so I don't think there's any reason for concern at this stage. Things happen slowly in the Orthodox Church, but we should all be running towards salvation. Metropolitan Paul has simply built a temporary bridge to help get some people across quickly.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

As I saw in the pics Aftimios posted, HE Paul performed collective ordination? How it's possible ? How to prove that such "ordination" is valid? And the "ad populum" manner of the "liturgy" is harshly against the Holy Tradition. How can HE Paul justify it?

One of the reasons why I joined and embraced Orthodoxy is because of its strict adherence to its canons, a Church governed by law, of tradition… which makes it different from other confession of faith.

If somebody will tell me that it is for the sake of economia why such ordinations were made (aside from the fact that HE Paul ignores the presence of EP in the Philippines) and why the Evangelicals were accommodated, then who is uncanonical here? Is it the one who was accepted or the one who accept?

How can we possibly say that Orthodoxy is truly being planted in the Philippine Islands if by that act of acceptance and ordination, which were clearly defined in the canons, were violated? If from the very start a lot of rubrics and protocols were compromised just to say that “Hey, another history in the archdiocese, thousands (as they claimed) were received in the Mother Church!” What kind of Church are we then? What makes us different from established uncanonical orthodox catholic church here?

We are tired of Roman Catholicism, of Protentism… reason we came to Orthodoxy to quench that thirst for Truth, not just a part of it. We want to have a Hierarch worthy of commemoration… “…teaching the word of truth” as we pray in the Divine Liturgy.

As I saw in the pics Aftimios posted, HE Paul performed collective ordination? How it's possible ? How to prove that such "ordination" is valid? And the "ad populum" manner of the "liturgy" is harshly against the Holy Tradition. How can HE Paul justify it?

Yes Elpidophoros, you can see it clearly on the attached photo stills and from the video presentation posted at You Tube. Likewise, you can see a short article about the "collective ordination" from their official website which reads (and I quote):

"His Eminence Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba recently visited the Philippines on September 28th 2008. The purpose of this visit was to ordain a number of candidates to the priesthood and diaconate. He ordained seventeen priests and ten deacons."

With regards to the canonicality or legitimacy of such ordination let them (i.e., the Antiochenes) prove it themselves. Were the clergies under the EP aware of these ordinations? Were they even informed or invited? I guess "Las Islas Filipinas" can answer these questions

Clearly the adapted Rite is only temporary, so I don't think there's any reason for concern at this stage.

Thus, you ignore once again (and continually IGNORE) the concerns of your Filipino Orthodox brethren under the EP (please read "Las Islas Filipinas'" latest post and please do not play deaf and dumb to these concerns).

Things happen slowly in the Orthodox Church, but we should all be running towards salvation. Metropolitan Paul has simply built a temporary bridge to help get some people across quickly.

Even at the expense of violating the holy canons of the Orthodox Church as the Orthodox faithful under the EP has been trying to point out all this time? So how long will you continually ignore the legitimate concerns and protestations of your canonical Orthodox brethren under the EP in the Philippines?

As I saw in the pics Aftimios posted, HE Paul performed collective ordination? How it's possible ? How to prove that such "ordination" is valid? And the "ad populum" manner of the "liturgy" is harshly against the Holy Tradition. How can HE Paul justify it?

Yes Elpidophoros, you can see it clearly on the attached photo stills and from the video presentation posted at You Tube. Likewise, you can see a short article about the "collective ordination" from their official website which reads (and I quote):

"His Eminence Metropolitan Archbishop Paul Saliba recently visited the Philippines on September 28th 2008. The purpose of this visit was to ordain a number of candidates to the priesthood and diaconate. He ordained seventeen priests and ten deacons."

With regards to the canonicality or legitimacy of such ordination let them (i.e., the Antiochenes) prove it themselves.

Seven deacons were ordained at the creation of the diaconate in Acts, and Barnabas and Paul were ordained together. Such mass ordinations are not outside economy.

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Were the clergies under the EP aware of these ordinations? Were they even informed or invited? I guess "Las Islas Filipinas" can answer these questions

Don't know. Given the EP's antics in other areas (setting up shop in Japan, despite an autonomous Church existing there, dismembering the Swedish Church into ethnic "jurisdictions," let alone squashing Ligonier etc), I'm not sure that it should be much of an issue, as the first priest, bishop and parishes that we know of in the Phillipines were PoM (the claims of earlier Greek settlers is like the claim that Orthodoxy in America dates to New Smyrna in Florida. Was just there, and the momunent was at pains to state that the settlement had no religious significance and was aggresively secular and Hellenic, not Greek).

Clearly the adapted Rite is only temporary, so I don't think there's any reason for concern at this stage.

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Thus, you ignore once again (and continually IGNORE) the concerns of your Filipino Orthodox brethren under the EP (please read "Las Islas Filipinas'" latest post and please do not play deaf and dumb to these concerns).

Things happen slowly in the Orthodox Church, but we should all be running towards salvation. Metropolitan Paul has simply built a temporary bridge to help get some people across quickly.

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Even at the expense of violating the holy canons of the Orthodox Church as the Orthodox faithful under the EP has been trying to point out all this time? So how long will you continually ignore the legitimate concerns and protestations of your canonical Orthodox brethren under the EP in the Philippines?

For one thing, as long as the EP keeps insisting on its own interpretation of Canon 28 of Chalcedon.

That being said, if the groups are using NO rites, there should have been an approval of said rites, with an eye towards to the DL of St. Gregory or St. Tikhon. But I'm not there, and I"m not the pastor responsible. If it is anything like what went on in the States, then there should be no fears.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 12:55:06 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

As I saw in the pics Aftimios posted, HE Paul performed collective ordination? How it's possible ? How to prove that such "ordination" is valid? And the "ad populum" manner of the "liturgy" is harshly against the Holy Tradition. How can HE Paul justify it?

With regards to "collective" or "multiple" ordination, please read below:

"d) Acts 13:3. The note supports multiple ordination. This practice has been forbidden in the Orthodox Church for many centuries, so there is no reason whatsoever to mention it, unless it is to justify the extreme irregularity of performing such ordinations when the so-called "Evangelical Orthodox" were received into the Antiochian Church."

As I saw in the pics Aftimios posted, HE Paul performed collective ordination? How it's possible ? How to prove that such "ordination" is valid? And the "ad populum" manner of the "liturgy" is harshly against the Holy Tradition. How can HE Paul justify it?

With regards to "collective" or "multiple" ordination, please read below:

"d) Acts 13:3. The note supports multiple ordination. This practice has been forbidden in the Orthodox Church for many centuries, so there is no reason whatsoever to mention it, unless it is to justify the extreme irregularity of performing such ordinations when the so-called "Evangelical Orthodox" were received into the Antiochian Church."

I've come across this silly (very silly and petty in many ways) review of the OSB. In many ways it reflects the mindset of keeping a private family garden rather than going out in the fields and recruiting workers.

The reviews critique of the mass ordinations I believe is lost in the fruits of those ordinations.

Seven deacons were ordained at the creation of the diaconate in Acts, and Barnabas and Paul were ordained together. Such mass ordinations are not outside economy.

There is no any kind of Agion Myron

You mean Holy Myron.

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be mentioned in Agia Graphe,

You mean Holy Scripture.

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so it's possible today any priest use hand-laying instead Myron in chrismation??

No, as the oil is the hand-laying of the BISHOP, not the priest. Your question might be more correct to ask if the bishop can confirm by laying on of hands. And yes, in emergencies at least, I think it could.

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Also,there was no epiklesis in the Mystic Supper;how about if today any priest omit it in DL?

It there is a priest consubstantial with the Spirit, so that he (or He) might say "This is" and it will be as it was in Genesis at His command, by all means....

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I can not ensure such ordination is invalid,but at least is high-doubtful.

No doubt at all. Certainly not as much as single bishops ordaining a bishop (which I think the argument can be made for economy), which the cited web site OKs for certain groups (i.e. Old Calendarists).

« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 02:48:36 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

With regards to "collective" or "multiple" ordination, please read below:

"d) Acts 13:3. The note supports multiple ordination. This practice has been forbidden in the Orthodox Church for many centuries, so there is no reason whatsoever to mention it, unless it is to justify the extreme irregularity of performing such ordinations when the so-called "Evangelical Orthodox" were received into the Antiochian Church."

I've come across this silly (very silly and petty in many ways) review of the OSB. In many ways it reflects the mindset of keeping a private family garden rather than going out in the fields and recruiting workers.

The reviews critique of the mass ordinations I believe is lost in the fruits of those ordinations.

Thanks for reminding us about the BEN LOMOND TRAGEDY . This tragedy is one those "fruits" of multiple or "mass ordinations". Thats what you get from compromising, disregarding and violating the canons of the Orthodox Church.