Transcription of interview conducted in July 2008 between Zoo director Steve
McCusker and San Antonio Current reporter Greg Harmen regarding “Lucky” the
Asian Elephant.

Greg (G): I guess my first question would be, what are the ultimate plans for
Africa live, uh, as far as the elephant exhibit and Lucky?

McCusker(M): Well, it’s, it’s…the Africa live piece of that is a ways off,
but to put things in perspective, we just finished Africa live phase one.

G: OK

M: Which is complete and is open to the public, om…we’re just having some
sort of fine tuning issues with it. Phase two is…the contract is let, and we’re
about to begin, uh, construction on phase two, which is Okapi, an aviary,
Colobus Monkeys….and, and a host of other animals. Phase three, which has not
been designed yet, has not had any capital campaign, there is no money for it at
this point in time will include elephants, African hoofstock, Rhino, and perhaps
some other things, but as I say, it’s not designed so we don’t know what’s going
to happen there. The plan as it pertains to Lucky at this time is to, Lucky’s an
Asian Elephant…the plan is to get one or more Asian Elephants, which is not as
easy as it sounds and we’ve been lookin since the day after Alport died.

G: mmm hmmm

M: Om, we’ve got a few things lined out now om…I’m not sure how those will
proceed, but the plan is to get another Asian elephant or two to put with Lucky

G: mmm hmmm

M: and then…when the time is right, move those animals out so we can get in
there and do some phase three construction. And then when that’s completed,
we’ll bring animals back, but they’ll be African Elephants.

G: OK…

M:…Cause the whole, that whole section of the zoo in the master plan was
destined to be Africa.

G: mmm hmmm…

M: So that’s..that’s the big plan. All that being a ways off, we have no
intention of not absolutely responding to Lucky’s needs…om…and I’m not…I’m not
sure…(sigh)…I mean we, we realize that from a strict biological standpoint, as
well as from public perception, and those two may not be joined at the hip if
you will…

G: mmm hmmm

M:…but we realize that we need to get other elephants. The bottom line to
that, and sort of my editorial piece is that Lucky’s always been sort of a
different elephant…and because there are probably nine or ten people who are
closely aligned with Lucky…we all know that deep down that Lucky’s as happy as
she could ever be. She doesn’t need other elephants, she doesn’t want other
elephants

G: mmm hmmm

M: She was captive raised, hand raised

G: right
M: and so she’s, she’s fine…but that;s not, that’s not the direction that we’re
necessarily following…

G: mmm hmmm

M: because of elephant biology, because of what we know about elephants, and
because of public perception

G: and…and, and

M: So for people out, for people, I guess what I’m doing is responding before
you ask for the people out there saying “she’s alone, she’s sick, she’s got foot
problems, she’s got joint problems, she doesn’t have any water…she’s on a hard
surface”…those are all wrong.

G: OK, so you’re not saying…OK so you’re saying that, that these attitudes
that the surface in the zoo, the size of her enclosure, the fact that she
doesn’t have other elephant’s, these are all just wrong..

M: the fact that

G: wrong thinking?

M: I think so, ya. I know most of them are wrong. The fact that she doesn’t
have other elephants, I think is defensible, and we’re in the process of looking
for other elephants

G: Is that an AZA standard?

M: mmm hmmm

G: that you have…not…more that one elephant together at a time

M: right, and I think that we are doing the best we can…om…

G: do you get calls, people saying…

M: we get emails

G: “we want more elephants”…not necessarily for Lucky, for the, it’s not the
free Lucky campaign, but people are just saying “why can’t the..why can’t San
Antonio have more elephants?” do you get calls like that?

M: we get…no. but we get lots of calls saying “we really like elephants”, and
“do you have elephants” and “what are you going to do with elephants” and “we
want to keep elephants”

G:OK

M: but we don’t get the rash of these people like we do the “send Lucky to
sanctuary”…om, but these people are…these people are. I think, personally,
ignited by the voices for animals or are ignited by what I call extremist
groups…um…and I would suggest that there are probably a hundred and fifty…maybe
closer to a hundred years of elephant experience at this institution and the
people we get these letters from only know what they’ve been told to say. They
don’t know anything about elephants

G: how much experience would you say that a sanctuary like the TN
sanctuary…do you think there’s a comparable level of training or sophistication?

M: No. Carol Buckley has years of elephant experience because she was a
circus person. And she worked with elephants in a circus, and that’s sort of her
history, which often goes untold, but she’s a circus girl…and then she started
the sanctuary…om. And she’s got a guy working with her who probably has….25
years of experience? Most of the others have far less than that….om, and so I, I
just, I just think that these people have perspectives sort of jacked
out-a-line…and…and just…they’re into it from an emotional side rather than a
factual or a biological side.

G: mmm hmmm…now, the majority…you have, you had three Africans here

M: We’ve, we’ve had as many as four, we, since I got here we’ve had three;
two Asians and an African.

G: what year was that…what year was that that you came?

M: ninety four

G: OK. And, because on eof the things that I hear a lot about that, that
several of those elephants also experienced foot problems or died at least
diagnosed with arthritis of the foot, torn ligaments, that sort of thing. Is
that common in the zoo experience, captive elephant experience>

M: foot problems used to be common…foot problems are not as common as they
used to be…and I think that goes along with the fact that over the last twenty
five to thirty years, zoos really have been the force behind learning about
elephant biology and the force behind learning about elephant medical issues and
the force behind solving these medical issues and the force behind treatment of,
of zoo elephant or of captive elephant problems. Om… when Ginny died…she had
serious joint problems which may or may not have been directly related to
captivity or lack of mobility or anything like that. Alport died from a torn
ACL, which is typically a stress injury that happens to football players,
basketball players…om…and it and it and it is usually trauma induced. It’s it’s
not some sort of, of long term ailment. And we’ll never know how she did that.
We’ll never know how she tore that ACL, but, I can’t remember frankly if it was
an ACl or an MCL, but in any case, she had a torn knee ligament just like humans
get, cause the structure’s all the same…but, that wasn’t a long range situation
that happened because she was on hard ground, or because she didn’t walk 75
miles a day, which elephants don’t really do, but that’s what voices for animals
proposes. So a lot of the information that we here about from that side of the
fence, if you will, is based on bad information. And, the elephant we have now
has very good feet, has very good legs, has one little bursa that we’ve tapped
twice that does not have any…it’s a tumor type thing. It’s not, it’s not
malignant. So, it’s just like a mole or something that you or I would have…

G: right….and she’s now…49 years old?

M: there abouts, ya

G: and the others that you cited…Ginny…

M: they were around that same age, ya

G: Ok, and do you think that…OK, one thing that I’ve heard, I haven’t seen
the video, but one thing I’ve heard is she does a lot of…that her feet are not
in great condition, she does a lot of shifting her weight constantly…a kind of
repetitive motion…is there an issue with her…

M: see, now that’s based on such fallacy, that, that the fact that elephants
do that has nothin to do with their knees, their joints, their feet. They do
that for the same reason that you and I will sit some place and uncross our legs
one way and put ‘em another way, cause it’s motion. It’s what they wanna do…and
they usually do it if they’re anxious like before feeding time, if they wanna go
in, if they’re expecting somethin to happen. It’s not, it has nothing to do with
a medical condition…(pause) nor, is it necessarily some, some stereotypic
behavior that indicates that their mind’s all screwed up either

G: That’s the other thing I was…

M: It’s just…it’s just what they do…om…dogs do it. Cats do it. Horses do
it…animals just…do those sorts of intermittent repetitive behaviors and people
for years have said it’s because animals are crazy, and their locked up and have
nowhere to go…and in some cases that’s probably true, but certainly not
absolutely true in every situation.

G: and in the case of Lucky You’re saying absolutely not?

M: she has..she doesn’t have any physical ailment that would indicate that
behavior. So, the, if people to you might be saying that the reason she does
that is because her feet are all screwed up, and all the joints hurt, they’re
wrong. And, and that’s some more of those pieces of misinformation that you
know…(clears throat)..(pause).. People who’ve been studyin elephants in a
combined fashion in zoos for thousands of years if you include all the players
and all the animals…om…for some reason the voices for animals people who have
never dealt with animals in their life all the sudden know all there is to know
about elephants. And I, I think that Carol Buckley’s place is pretty cool, but I
also think that there’s a lot of things about it that other people don’t take
into consideration. Such as vet care, such as, all animals don’t get along
together, such as the head keeper killed there in the last six months that
nobody ever heard about. There’s a lot of bad things…but, but and I don’t say
that to promote it cause I don’t wanna go there….I don’t want you to think that
we’re bashing them in our own behalf, cause we’re not. I mean, it’s a cool place
and I’ve been there, I’ve visited there, but it’s not al it’s cracked up to be I
guess is what I’m sayin…and in order…in an effort to do what’s right for Lucky,
the real easy cop out way to do it would be to say “well, we’ll just put her on
a truck and send her there and then we can wash our hands of the whole thing.”
But we’re not going to do that.

G: you don’t believe that she would be happier…

M: No

G: In a sanctuary?

M: No, absolutely not

G: Because…

M: Because, she’s set in her ways….She’s old in elephant terms…the stress,
the trauma. I don’t think would be rectified by goin down there in a whole new
area, whole new setting, whole new group of animals, whole new group of
people…and she’s not exactly the friendliest elephant on earth. So, even if
everybody loved her to death, she wouldn’t love them to death…so, there’d be
some issues with that that she’d have to deal with…

G: right…

M: And I think for our situation (if we/Before we) can bring animals in here
we can introduce them…om…in a sort of slower more controlled fashion.

G: How important are elephants to zoos as far…well one, as a functioning kind
of economically I guess, and then how important do you believe having elephant
exhibits is to conservation ideals?

M: I think economically its of absolutely zero impact

G: ya

M: And one of the, one of the “others” if you will, always say “well why are
you just getting elephants so you can raise your gait and so that they can earn
their fee” and that’s just garbage, I mean, I don’t think our attendance would
go down one iota without elephants.

G: But, you do have a lot of people that call and are interested in…

M: We just think that they’re really cool animals and that people should have
the opportunity to see them and to learn about them, and to appreciate them. And
in, in the long run I think they should be bred in captivity. I think there’s a
real need for animals to be bred in captivity. I think it’s good for the wild
populations, I think it’s good for the research that we do in the field, and
neither of the sanctuaries that exists have any bulls or even have any desire to
breed elephants….om…

G: That’s a real difference between zoos and sanctuaries in general wouldn’t
you say?

M: mmm hmmm, yup. And I think that we have learned again in the last twenty
to twenty five years, we have meaning zoos have learned so much about elephant
reproduction. There’s artificial insemination goin on now. I think there’s been
three African calves born in the last just as many months. Disney’s had ‘em, I
think buffalo had one…om..uh…Louisville Kentucky had one. So, there’s people
breedin elephants and it’s a very cool thing and it will, we will learn a lot
from it and we will be able to apply that knowledge to field conservation.
There’s also a lot of…(sigh)…zoo money being sent to conservation projects.

G: Right.

M: There’s an outfit called the elephant interest group and it’s based out of
Fort Worth. (pause)
Elephant…elephant interest…elephant…foundation?…and it’s based out of Fort
Worth…

G: Fort Worth, really?

M: uh huh, and we’re members. And we’ve sent them significant amounts of
money…and they really are sort of the hub of a lot of elephant research. Most of
it in fact is field research.

G: OK. And so there is an effort…and, and I guess it is the one shift that I
see that that I think is really interesting is the shift into conservation..uh,
and, and beyond education. I guess, it seems like the education was the first
step away from just strictly an entertainment facility. And there’s also been
cases through that process with zoos that say “well, we can’t expand to have a
good elephant exhibit” Like Detroit or…uh…San Francisco. What does, what can San
Antonio Zoo do to make sure that we have the best and healthiest environment for
the elephants that do come here?

M: We can um…continue with one or two more in the existing situation we’ve
got a really good elephant staff. We’ve got two veterinarians who are both
interested in elephant biology and elephant health. There’s a whole cast of
players we can call on if something develops that we need work with. I mean,
there’s 218 accredited institutions…I think 82 of them have elephants. There’s a
whole bunch of people out there that we can rely on. The other thing that we can
do is that we can, we can deal with those elephants until we begin phase three
and when we begin phase three, if we’re goin to do elephants, which we have
every intention of doin, we’re gonna do it different. We’re gonna do three times
as much space, three times as many elephants. Probably have a bull, probably if
not have a bull….if not have one bull and cows to breed, we would be a holding
facility for a number of bulls. Om, bulls get to the point at 5,6,7 years old
where they need to be out on their own. Yet, if they’re with other bulls,
they’re Ok as long as there’s now females involved. So there’s a need to house
groups of bulls to maintain that genetic diversity so that those bulls can
either be, can either have artificial..om..insemination semen extracted from
‘em, to be sent to bre, to om…infiltrate cows or send the bulls somewhere to
naturally breed animals. So there’s a whole lot of things like that that
actually happen now, and will have to happen on a much larger scale cause
elephants are runnin out of room in both Africa and Asia.

G: (laughing) well, they’re not alone…

M: no

G: ya, so you’re talking about three times the space, three times what we
have here, three times the AZA standards, but with…

M: three times what we have here which is within AZA standards. I, I can’t
give you the measurements because I don’t..i don’t wanna misquote ‘em. But I’m
on the, the elephant TAG the taxon group, and also serve on the accreditation
commission so everyone’s really careful to make sure that things get done right.
And as soon as Alport died, within days we had to have a letter of our intent
off to AZA, and share with them that yes, we’re gonna maintain her, we’re gonna
get another companion, and work toward toward improving our elephant
facility..blah blah blah blah blah….

G: now, she came, she was captive, captured in the wild, was my
understanding…um…what do you know…

M: yes, that’s mine too and that she was…

G: probably the product of a cull…

M: ya, she was…well, probably not even the product of a cull. Probably just
taken. Or maybe, maybe came from a logging ranch…om…but it was a long time ago,
so I’m not sure. And she was at another zoo before here you remember all that
stuff, we gathered all that stuff.

G: she was briefly somewhere she came in at two or three different…

M: ya

G: ya…um…how…how would if you to…to comply with AZA and to have companionship
for Lucky since you, you know, decided to keep her here at the zoo…where do you
find elephants….where, I mean it’s, I know it’s got to have been dramatically
different than it has been in the past…

M: it’s…it’s..it’s difficult, for several reasons. It’s difficult because
there are a number of zoos that are dealing with middle to old age populations
much like we were, or are, in fact…so…they don’t want to necessarily move their
elephants cause they’re happy, they’re content and good where they are. Om…we
had a cow/calf situation that we could’ve taken, but somebody else got them
before we did…om…we’re looking at getting in a young animal now from Canada.