Authoritative muslim scholars condemn attacks

Menaz, who constantly bickers about how the qu'ran encourages violence, blames 'true' islam for all the terrorist activity that we see today on our television sets. However, he couldn't be further from the truth. He claims islam promotes "extremism" Yet the respected, authoritative speakers for islam [scholars world wide] condemn the actions of extremists IE. 9/11

Menaz, multitudes of muslims throughout the years have been schooling both you, and your gay counter-part, azeus.

The proceeding video's are of sunni muslim organizations and scholars condemning extremism/terrorism world wide.

So I'm suppose to buy into this fallacy because they SAID they condem them riiiight? This is all part of the Muslim Bortherhood Project. Which those nazi-Mod's made me take out the link. I'm sure you had nothing to do with that violation of my free speech. LOL!

I would like you to notice Those Muslims are from the west.
Which means in your world they could be Secular muslims of Islam. Though I doubt it, Because they do indeed fasically back terrorist groups in private. CAIR officials refuse to describe organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas and even Al Qaeda as terrorist organizations. And the quran does tell them to lie to protect Islam. You're propaganda is terrible. This would be like me saying Iraq does have weapons of mass destruction, because bush claimed it so. LOL! See what I am getting at? of course not, You're slow.

Try to keep up, with this analogy, I know it will be hard, since You can't think for yourself.

Ceaser, had a saying Publically I believe in the all the Gods.
Privately I believe in none of them. The quran tells muslims
to lie to protect their religion. fuck your propaganda. If you wanna do something respectful for islam Reform it. Show me you see the religion as the problem. Otherwise, Noreason to respond back.

Worthless thread, I guess you missed the muslim reaction where they danced in the streets on 9/11. You can't even see the fallacy you're sheepishly following just because you're dogmatically driven. LOL!

Perhaps you should read the leading scholar in the World on Islam, Bernard lewis.

That's who you use to propagandize? Your post is a joke.
The CAIR are shills for the Muslim brotherhood project.

You're only worth this one post.
I would like you to notice Those Muslims are from the west.

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They're from the east, reside in the west. Some of them reside in the east.
There's no such sect as "secular" islam and you jump to your own conclusions without any feeble grounds.

Those radicals your referring to are Wahhabi's/salafis. Sunni scholars detest the beliefs of wahabism/salafism. Real sunni muslims follow sunna wal jamah, and not the radical teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab. Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab's beliefs are what the media refers to as "radical islam" This type of islam does not believe in defensive wars, and promotes infliction upon civilians. Those who follow this school of thought are Osama Bin Laden, Zawahiri and the Taliban. Deobandi's are no different than wahhabis because they have wahhabi elements in their core books.

Sunna wal jamah is what the MAJORITY of muslims follow world wide and NOT wahabism. Sunna wal jamah was over thrown by wahabi's and that's why saudi arabia is not dictated by wahhabi's

"In many of his "fatawa," Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdi-l-Wahhab labeled Muslims as "kuffars" if they did not agree to his heretical teachings, which opposed the orthodox Islamic beliefs that Muslims had been adhering to for over a thousand years (known as Ahlu-s-Sunnah wa-l-Jama‘ah). When the true Sunni Muslims disagreed with the newly formulated Wahhabi cult, the blood of countless Muslims, including plenty of scholars of Ahlu-s-Sunnah, was made halal by the command of Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdi-l-Wahhab.

Although thousands of Muslims were massacred by the deviant Wahhabis, the scholars of Ahlu-s-Sunnah continued to refute them in their books. An example is what the Mufti of Mecca, Ahmad Zayni Dahlan al-Makki ash-Shafi‘i (rahimah-Ullah) wrote in a work titled "Fitnatu-l-Wahhabiyyah"

The Wahabis, who call themselves Salafis, are a group who had appeared in the last few centuries and hold beliefs contrary to the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah.

Wahabis are considered extremists, and they're scrutinized by the Ahlu-s-Sunnah wa-l-Jama‘ah [international muslims communities world wide] for having such a radical belief system.

Wahhabism is based on the teachings of Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdi-l-Wahhab. There's no doubt that Wahhab *HIMSELF* and his followers declared other Muslims infidels and waged jihad against them.

menaz said:

Which means in your world they could be Secular muslims of Islam. Though I doubt it, Because they do indeed fasically back terrorist groups in private.

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So these same scholars that condemn extremism also fund extremism in private? Where's your proof? Prove that all the scholars mentioned in my post are supporters of "extremists" behind the 'silhouette' and that their words are mere facades. Your thinking is ridiculous, i can't believe you get respect by anyone here.

menaz said:

CAIR officials refuse to describe organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas and even Al Qaeda as terrorist organizations. And the quran does tell them to lie to protect Islam. You're propaganda is terrible. This would be like me saying Iraq does have weapons of mass destruction, because bush claimed it so. LOL! See what I am getting at? of course not, You're slow.

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They refuse to "describe" them as terrorist organizations? Prove to me that they don't consider al-qaeda as a terrorist organization. There are actors in the UN who don't consider hezbollah a terrorist organization, and politicians such as george galloway who don't consider them a terrorist organization either.

menaz said:

Ceaser, had a saying Publically I believe in the all the Gods.
Privately I believe in none of them. The quran tells muslims
to lie to protect their religion. fuck your propaganda. If you wanna do something respectful for islam Reform it. Show me you see the religion as the problem. Otherwise, Noreason to respond back.

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Yea that's right, that's all you can say because your a pathetic loser. What the hell are you talking about "reform" islam, right. Your hypothesis is irrational and your thinking is out of line. Prove to me that the Qu'ran tells us to lie to protect our religion.

menaz said:

Worthless thread, I guess you missed the muslim reaction where they danced in the streets on 9/11. You can't even see the fallacy you're sheepishly following just because you're dogmatically driven. LOL!

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What reaction? Your gonna show me a video on youtube of palestinians dancing on the street out of context? They could be dancing for any reason, people distort video's on youtube like crazy, but your dumb ass wouldn't know that. Show me proof that muslims world wide celebrated the 9/11 attacks.

menaz said:

Perhaps you should read the leading scholar in the World on Islam, Bernard lewis.

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I don't even know who bernard lewis is, you're an idiot, and there is no such thing as a leading scholar that speaks for a religion, moron.

menaz said:

That's who you use to propagandize? Your post is a joke.

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No, your the joke. I showed you ample evidence that scholars detest extremism yet you wave a blind eye to all the evidence provided including the video's

. In Islam we fight defensive wars
. In Islam we believe in self-defensive
. Muhammad fought in defensive wars
. In Islam, It's strictly forbidden to inflict any kind of aggression on innocent people
during the state of warfare
. In Islam we don't believe in the "72 virgins" hadith *fabricated gospel/not true*
. In Islam suicide is forbidden, and so are suicide bombings
. In Islam we condone 9/11
. Islam doesn't promote and support the killing of civilians
. Islam does not believe in self infliction, which is a shiia practice.

*Scholars have condoned 9/11 worldwide*

Statements from Leading International Academic Organizations for the Academic Study of Islam, Religion, and Middle East

Scholars of Islam speak out against terrorism; clarify position of Islam

Monday, September 17, 2001

Dozens of scholars of Islam issued a statement today, condemning the violent attacks of September 11th.

“We are grief-stricken at these horrifying events,” they wrote; “the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated.”
In a lengthy statement, professors from major colleges and universities throughout the country expressed their compassion for grieving family members while also decrying the increase in violence against American Muslims this past week. “Anger and frustration are completely understandable and shared by us all,” they wrote “yet that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes.”

In recent days, verbal and physical attacks against Muslims (and people who were thought to be Muslims) have been reported from California to Vermont. Muslims have been warned to stay home or to avoid wearing traditional dress. “Particularly distressing is the fact that many American Muslims have fled to the United States, seeking a haven from intolerant regimes in Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq. For them now to face intolerance and violence here is an abuse of our Nation’s most deeply cherished beliefs” they said.

The co-signers of the statement are members of many scholarly societies in the United States and Canada. They include:

Professor Asma Afsaruddin, of Notre Dame University
Professor Vivienne Sm. Angeles, La Salle University
Professor Ghazala Anwar of the University of Canterbury, New Zealand
Professor Jonathan Brockopp, Director of the Religion Program at Bard College
Professor Patrice C. Brodeur of Connecticut College
Professor Arthur Buehler of Louisiana State University
Professor Amila Buturovic of York University
Professor Juan E. Campo of the University of California, Santa Barbara
Professor Vincent J. Cornell of University of Arkansas
Professor Frederick M. Denny Chair of Islamic Studies and the History of Religions, University of Colorado
Professor Abdullahi Gallab of Hiram College
Professor Behrooz Ghamari of Georgia State University
Professor Alan Godlas of University of Georgia
Professor Hugh Talat Halman, of University of Arkansas
Professor Pieternella (Nelly) Harder Vandoorn,, of Valparaiso University
Professor Marcia Hermansen of Loyola University, Chicago
Professor Valerie J. Hoffman, of University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Professor Qamar ul-Huda, of Boston College
Professor Aaron Hughes of the University of Calgary
Professor Amir Hussain of California State University, Northridge
Professor John Iskander of Georgia State Univeristy
Professor Ahmet Karamustafa of Washington University in St. Louis
Professor Tazim Kassam of Syracuse University
Professor Zayn Kassam of Pomona College
Professor Ruqayya Khan of University of California at Santa Barbara
Professor Kathryn Kueny, of Lawrence College
Professor Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Dean of the College, Georgetown University
Professor Richard C. Martin, Emory University
Professor J.W. Morris, Chair of Islamic Studies at the University of Exeter
Professor Gordon D. Newby, Executive Director, Institute for Comparative and International Studies at Emory University
Professor James Pavlin of Rutgers University
Professor Jack Renard of St. Louis University
Professor Omid Safi of Colgate University
Professor Walid Saleh of Middlebury College
Professor Zeki Saritoprak of Berry College
Professor Michael Sells, Haverford College
Professor Laury Silvers-Alario of Holy Cross University
Professor Alfons Teipen of Furman University

List of Statements from various Muslim leaders from around the world, who have condemned the terrorist attacks of September 11th.
This list has been compiled by Professor Charles Kurzman, of the University of North Carolina.
I am deeply grateful to him for generously allowing us to share this compilation.

CAIR has received criticism from a number of both governmental and non-governmental sources, for actions it has taken and people and organizations it has been involved with.

The greatest source of criticism has involved CAIR's alleged ties to terrorism and terrorist groups. As of 2006, at least four former CAIR officials have been charged with terrorism-related offenses. Critics claim CAIR is a spin-off of the Islamic Association for Palestine, which is alleged to be a “front group” for Hamas.

Critics have also taken aim at CAIR's fundraising and sources of funds. Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, CAIR's website solicited donations for what it called the "NY/DC Emergency Relief Fund." However, clicking on the donation link led to a website for donations to the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF). It was later designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union and U.S., and shut down by the U.S. government.

CAIR has also been accused of doctoring photographs and reporting fraudulent statistics about the Muslim population of the United States in support of its own private agenda. Finally, another source of criticism is that CAIR attempts to suppress criticism of Islamic terrorism and intolerance through accusations of racism and anti-Muslim bias.

Among the numerous books donated to libraries in CAIR's "library project" was former congressman Paul Findley's 'Silent No More', which includes positive statements about convicted terrorist Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi.

^
People interested check out benard lewis books.
He is the most prominently world renowned and leading expert/scholar on ISLAM.

Moderate muslims have never existed. However, now adays Muslims for the reform of Islam do exist. The truth is muslim reformers are few. And since they don't agree with the way the religion of Islam has always been since it's creation they are labled apostates by the religion of Islam
(according to the Quran and Hadith.) Islam has never had moderates it only has reformers for the religion of Islam. These people will stand with me against the religion of Islam. They're are also muslims like the CAIR who lie publically to protect their faith but who are in private following the same line of thinking as the rest of the unreformed muslims. I'd like to Clarfy muslim for the reform for islam are not moderates either, They are considered apostates by muslims.

REMEMBER REMEMBER THE 11TH OF SEPTEMBER!
Let Freedom from religion Ring With a Buckshot

One might be led to think that if international law enforcement authorities and Western intelligence agencies had discovered a twenty-year old document revealing a top-secret plan developed by the oldest Islamist organization with one of the most extensive terror networks in the world to launch a program of “cultural invasion” and eventual conquest of the West that virtually mirrors the tactics used by Islamists for more than two decades, that such news would scream from headlines published on the front pages and above the fold of the New York Times, Washington Post, London Times, Le Monde, Bild, and La Repubblica.

If that’s what you might think, you would be wrong.

In fact, such a document was recovered in a raid by Swiss authorities in November 2001, two months after the horror of 9/11. Since that time information about this document, known in counterterrorism circles as “The Project”, and discussion regarding its content has been limited to the top-secret world of Western intelligence communities. Only through the work of an intrepid Swiss journalist, Sylvain Besson of Le Temps, and his book published in October 2005 in France, La conquête de l'Occident: Le projet secret des Islamistes (The Conquest of the West: The Islamists' Secret Project), has information regarding The Project finally been made public. One Western official cited by Besson has described The Project as “a totalitarian ideology of infiltration which represents, in the end, the greatest danger for European societies.”

Now FrontPage readers will be the first to be able to read the complete English translation of The Project.

What Western intelligence authorities know about The Project begins with the raid of a luxurious villa in Campione, Switzerland on November 7, 2001. The target of the raid was Youssef Nada, director of the Al-Taqwa Bank of Lugano, who has had active association with the Muslim Brotherhood for more than 50 years and who admitted to being one of the organization’s international leaders. The Muslim Brotherhood, regarded as the oldest and one of the most important Islamist movements in the world, was founded by Hasan al-Banna in 1928 and dedicated to the credo, “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur’an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.”

The raid was conducted by Swiss law enforcement at the request of the White House in the initial crackdown on terrorist finances in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. US and Swiss investigators had been looking at Al-Taqwa’s involvement in money laundering and funding a wide range of Islamic terrorist groups, including Al-Qaeda, HAMAS (the Palestinian affiliate of the Muslim Brotherhood), the Algerian GIA, and the Tunisian Ennahdah.

Included in the documents seized during the raid of Nada’s Swiss villa was a 14-page plan written in Arabic and dated December 1, 1982, which outlines a 12-point strategy to “establish an Islamic government on earth” – identified as The Project. According to testimony given to Swiss authorities by Nada, the unsigned document was prepared by “Islamic researchers” associated with the Muslim Brotherhood.

What makes The Project so different from the standard “Death of America! Death to Israel!” and “Establish the global caliphate!” Islamist rhetoric is that it represents a flexible, multi-phased, long-term approach to the “cultural invasion” of the West. Calling for the utilization of various tactics, ranging from immigration, infiltration, surveillance, propaganda, protest, deception, political legitimacy and terrorism, The Project has served for more than two decades as the Muslim Brotherhood “master plan”. As can be seen in a number of examples throughout Europe – including the political recognition of parallel Islamist government organizations in Sweden, the recent “cartoon” jihad in Denmark, the Parisian car-burning intifada last November, and the 7/7 terrorist attacks in London – the plan outlined in The Project has been overwhelmingly successful.

Rather than focusing on terrorism as the sole method of group action, as is the case with Al-Qaeda, in perfect postmodern fashion the use of terror falls into a multiplicity of options available to progressively infiltrate, confront, and eventually establish Islamic domination over the West. The following tactics and techniques are among the many recommendations made in The Project:

Networking and coordinating actions between likeminded Islamist organizations;
Avoiding open alliances with known terrorist organizations and individuals to maintain the appearance of “moderation”;
Infiltrating and taking over existing Muslim organizations to realign them towards the Muslim Brotherhood’s collective goals;
Using deception to mask the intended goals of Islamist actions, as long as it doesn’t conflict with shari’a law;
Avoiding social conflicts with Westerners locally, nationally or globally, that might damage the long-term ability to expand the Islamist powerbase in the West or provoke a lash back against Muslims;
Establishing financial networks to fund the work of conversion of the West, including the support of full-time administrators and workers;
Conducting surveillance, obtaining data, and establishing collection and data storage capabilities;
Putting into place a watchdog system for monitoring Western media to warn Muslims of “international plots fomented against them”;
Cultivating an Islamist intellectual community, including the establishment of think-tanks and advocacy groups, and publishing “academic” studies, to legitimize Islamist positions and to chronicle the history of Islamist movements;
Developing a comprehensive 100-year plan to advance Islamist ideology throughout the world;
Balancing international objectives with local flexibility;
Building extensive social networks of schools, hospitals and charitable organizations dedicated to Islamist ideals so that contact with the movement for Muslims in the West is constant;
Involving ideologically committed Muslims in democratically-elected institutions on all levels in the West, including government, NGOs, private organizations and labor unions;
Instrumentally using existing Western institutions until they can be converted and put into service of Islam;
Drafting Islamic constitutions, laws and policies for eventual implementation;
Avoiding conflict within the Islamist movements on all levels, including the development of processes for conflict resolution;
Instituting alliances with Western “progressive” organizations that share similar goals;
Creating autonomous “security forces” to protect Muslims in the West;
Inflaming violence and keeping Muslims living in the West “in a jihad frame of mind”;
Supporting jihad movements across the Muslim world through preaching, propaganda, personnel, funding, and technical and operational support;
Making the Palestinian cause a global wedge issue for Muslims;
Adopting the total liberation of Palestine from Israel and the creation of an Islamic state as a keystone in the plan for global Islamic domination;
Instigating a constant campaign to incite hatred by Muslims against Jews and rejecting any discussions of conciliation or coexistence with them;
Actively creating jihad terror cells within Palestine;
Linking the terrorist activities in Palestine with the global terror movement;
Collecting sufficient funds to indefinitely perpetuate and support jihad around the world;

In reading The Project, it should be kept in mind that it was drafted in 1982 when current tensions and terrorist activities in the Middle East were still very nascent. In many respects, The Project is extremely prescient for outlining the bulk of Islamist action, whether by “moderate” Islamist organizations or outright terror groups, over the past two decades.

At present, most of what is publicly known about The Project is the result of Sylvain Besson’s investigative work, including his book and a related article published last October in the Swiss daily, Le Temps, L'islamisme à la conquête du monde (Islamism and the Conquest of the World), profiling his book, which is only available in a French-language edition. At least one Egyptian newspaper, Al-Mussawar, published the entire Arabic text of The Project last November.

In the English-language press, the attention paid to Besson’s revelation of The Project has been almost non-existent. The only mention found in a mainstream media publication in the US has been as a secondary item in an article in the Weekly Standard (February 20, 2006) by Olivier Guitta, The Cartoon Jihad. The most extensive commentary on The Project has been by an American researcher and journalist living in London, Scott Burgess, who has posted his analysis of the document on his blog, The Daily Ablution. Along with his commentary, an English translation of the French text of The Project was serialized in December (Parts I, II, III, IV, V, Conclusion). The complete English translation prepared by Mr. Burgess is presented in its entirety here with his permission.

The lack of public discussion about The Project notwithstanding, the document and the plan it outlines has been the subject of considerable discussion amongst the Western intelligence agencies. One US counterterrorism official who spoke with Besson about The Project, and who is cited in Guitta’s Weekly Standard article, is current White House terrorism czar, Juan Zarate. Calling The Project a Muslim Brotherhood master plan for “spreading their political ideology,” Zarate expressed concerns to Besson because “the Muslim Brotherhood is a group that worries us not because it deals with philosophical or ideological ideas but because it defends the use of violence against civilians.”

One renowned international scholar of Islamist movements who also spoke with Besson, Reuven Paz, talked about The Project in its historical context:

The Project was part of the charter of the international organization of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was official established on July 29, 1982. It reflects a vast plan which was revived in the 1960s, with the immigration of Brotherhood intellectuals, principally Syrian and Egyptians, into Europe.

As Paz notes, The Project was drafted by the Muslim Brotherhood as part of its rechartering process in 1982, a time that marks an upswing in its organizational expansion internationally, as well as a turning point in the alternating periods of repression and toleration by the Egyptian government. In 1952, the organization played a critical support role to the Free Officers Movement led by Gamal Abdul Nasser, which overthrew King Faruq, but quickly fell out of favor with the new revolutionary regime because of Nasser’s refusal to follow the Muslim Brotherhood’s call to institute an ideologically committed Islamic state. At various times since the July Revolution in 1952, the Brotherhood has regularly been banned and its leaders killed and imprisoned by Egyptian authorities.

Since it was rechartered in 1982, the Muslim Brotherhood has spread its network across the Middle East, Europe, and even America. At home in Egypt, parliamentary elections in 2005 saw the Muslim Brotherhood winning 20 percent of the available legislative seats, comprising the largest opposition party block. Its Palestinian affiliate, known to the world as HAMAS, recently gained control of the Palestinian Authority after elections secured for them 74 of 132 seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council. Its Syrian branch has historically been the largest organized group opposing the Assad regime, and the organization also has affiliates in Jordan, Sudan, and Iraq. In the US, the Muslim Brotherhood is primarily represented by the Muslim American Society (MAS).

Since its formation, the Muslim Brotherhood has advocated the use of terrorism as a means of advancing its agenda of global Islamic domination. But as the largest popular radical movement in the Islamic world, it has attracted many leading Islamist intellectuals. Included among this group of Muslim Brotherhood intellectuals is Youssef Qaradawi, an Egyptian-born, Qatar-based Islamist cleric.

As one of the leading Muslim Brotherhood spiritual figures and radical Islamic preachers (who has his own weekly program on Al-Jazeera), Qaradawi has been one of the leading apologists of suicide bombings in Israel and terrorism against Western interests in the Middle East. Both Sylvain Besson and Scott Burgess provide extensive comparisons between Qaradawi’s publication, Priorities of the Islamic Movement in the Coming Phase, published in 1990, and The Project, which predates Qaradawi’s Priorities by eight years. They note the striking similarities in the language used and the plans and methods both documents advocate. It is speculated that The Project was either used by Qaradawi as a template for his own work, or that he had a hand in its drafting in 1982. Perhaps coincidentally, Qaradawi was the fourth largest shareholder in the Al-Taqwa Bank of Lugano, the director of which, Youssef Nada, was the individual in whose possession The Project was found. Since 1999, Qaradawi has been banned from entering the US as a result of his connections to terrorist organizations and his outspoken advocacy of terrorism.

For those who have read The Project, what is most troubling is not that Islamists have developed a plan for global dominance; it has been assumed by experts that Islamist organizations and terrorist groups have been operating off an agreed-upon set of general principles, networks and methodology. What is startling is how effectively the Islamist plan for conquest outlined in The Project has been implemented by Muslims in the West for more than two decades. Equally troubling is the ideology that lies behind the plan: inciting hatred and violence against Jewish populations around the world; the deliberate co-opting and subversion of Western public and private institutions; its recommendation of a policy of deliberate escalating confrontation by Muslims living in the West against their neighbors and fellow-citizens; the acceptance of terrorism as a legitimate option for achieving their ends and the inevitable reality of jihad against non-Muslims; and its ultimate goal of forcibly instituting the Islamic rule of the caliphate by shari’a in the West, and eventually the whole world.

If the experience over the past quarter of a century seen in Europe and the US is any indication, the “Islamic researchers” who drafted The Project more than two decades ago must be pleased to see their long-term plan to conquer the West and to see the Green flag of Islam raised over its citizens realized so rapidly, efficiently and completely. If Islamists are equally successful in the years to come, Westerners ought to enjoy their personal and political freedoms while they last.

So there was corruption within the organization, but that doesn't mean you should derive to the conclusion that ALL are hypocrites that promote infliction upon civilians. How do you know what each member thinks? Funny how i listed dozens of organization, yet you could only get critical of C.A.I.R. .....And how many educated muslims have denounced the actions of 9/11? I listed so many high profiled muslim men & women, and organizations, yet you wave a blind eye to the evidence. People in tehran, Iran and bangladesh etc.. ALL[]/b] mourning the deaths of 9/11 (pictures posted up-top).

Personally, I support the struggle of Iraqi, Palestinian, and lebanese insurgents who strictly combat their oppressors. I don't support al-qaeda however. Insurgents are civilians and foreigners who decide to take up arms against their [agreed upon] opposition. To put every insurgent in the same bracket is like putting every US troop in the same bracket btw.

As for those ridiculous, un-credible pictures, they could be pictures of anything as i stated previously. They could be jumping around for any reason, and some jerk could twist those pictures totally out of context and say "they were celebrating the deaths of 9/11" And lets say those pictures were "true" for your sake, those pictures only depict 2 children and one grandma, that doesn't represent the muslim world or make it "right" in accordance to the qu'ran/sunna. You have no argument.

You say bin laden justifies his actions through the holy quran, but the KKK justify their racist ideologies [of hate] in accordance to the holy bible, does that make christianity an "extremist" religion too? Mormons bomb abortion clinics because they feel it's their crusade to do so, as well.

As for the "muslim brother hood project" That was part of the "islamic revolution" of egypt which zahkari followed, and i already stated that he was a wahhabi, and their beliefs were the total opposite of sunna wal jama [which 90% of muslims follow world wide]. Wahhabi's are the radicals! Not you average day to day muslims found internationally.

I will list all of the organization of muslims condemning terrorism and then, you could do the job of finding me proof that all these organizations secretly fund terrorists [since your the one making the claims]. So far you found a few corrupted c.a.i.r. officials, during their 'dozens' of years of their existence *bravo* Even police officers are found to be corrupted, but does that mean the police, in general, does not protect and serve the community? Does that mean every police officer is corrupt? No.

I give you an open challenge, try to prove that the quran promotes terrorism, I tore you to shreds every time you "tried" to prove that the qu'ran does this. You only jump to your own conclusions, and what I do is, I list the correct beliefs according to most muslims, and most muslim scholars. You try to pull the wool over people's eye's and try to convey the text in accordance to your own agenda [the same way how the terrorists twist the teachings]. Terrorists use religion to support their agenda and win over "the crowd" They use religion as a tool, an excuse to harm, while the majority of muslims found world wide, never harm other people because "supposidly" the qu'ran told them so. Muslims who live in America come from the east [for the most part], most came from the east, and just because they reside in the west doesn't mean they don't still carry the same beliefs their parents or they, themselves, learned in the east [commenting on your "secular" muslim hypothesis]. Now, why aren't they THE MAJORITY of muslims in the east hurting or attacking any civilians then? Why do they condone the actions of terrorists? Every muslim in the world would be attacking non-muslims if the qu'ran truly promoted terrorism.. checkmate, buds

Professor Asma Afsaruddin, of Notre Dame University
Professor Vivienne Sm. Angeles, La Salle University
Professor Ghazala Anwar of the University of Canterbury, New Zealand
Professor Jonathan Brockopp, Director of the Religion Program at Bard College
Professor Patrice C. Brodeur of Connecticut College
Professor Arthur Buehler of Louisiana State University
Professor Amila Buturovic of York University
Professor Juan E. Campo of the University of California, Santa Barbara
Professor Vincent J. Cornell of University of Arkansas
Professor Frederick M. Denny Chair of Islamic Studies and the History of Religions, University of Colorado
Professor Abdullahi Gallab of Hiram College
Professor Behrooz Ghamari of Georgia State University
Professor Alan Godlas of University of Georgia
Professor Hugh Talat Halman, of University of Arkansas
Professor Pieternella (Nelly) Harder Vandoorn,, of Valparaiso University
Professor Marcia Hermansen of Loyola University, Chicago
Professor Valerie J. Hoffman, of University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Professor Qamar ul-Huda, of Boston College
Professor Aaron Hughes of the University of Calgary
Professor Amir Hussain of California State University, Northridge
Professor John Iskander of Georgia State Univeristy
Professor Ahmet Karamustafa of Washington University in St. Louis
Professor Tazim Kassam of Syracuse University
Professor Zayn Kassam of Pomona College
Professor Ruqayya Khan of University of California at Santa Barbara
Professor Kathryn Kueny, of Lawrence College
Professor Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Dean of the College, Georgetown University
Professor Richard C. Martin, Emory University
Professor J.W. Morris, Chair of Islamic Studies at the University of Exeter
Professor Gordon D. Newby, Executive Director, Institute for Comparative and International Studies at Emory University
Professor James Pavlin of Rutgers University
Professor Jack Renard of St. Louis University
Professor Omid Safi of Colgate University
Professor Walid Saleh of Middlebury College
Professor Zeki Saritoprak of Berry College
Professor Michael Sells, Haverford College
Professor Laury Silvers-Alario of Holy Cross University
Professor Alfons Teipen of Furman University

Prove that these scholars in these articles "secretly fund terrorists"

I've come to the conclusion you're a moron who post bloviating bullshit messages that make nosense. Plus You're argument keeps changing and back paddling which means you're spinning and lying. While mine remains the same. HAHAHA! This is comdey.

I ALREADY PULLED CAIR CARD! The information is provided above.
You lost that argument along time ago. These muslims learn holy war from the quran and Hadith. You're comparsions are fallacies, Because
the WHOLE CAIR ORGINZATION WAS FUNDING AND SUPPORTING TERRORISM. it's not a Isloated incident. DUMB FUCK!

Every muslim in the world would be attacking non-muslims if the qu'ran truly promoted terrorism.. checkmate, buds

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THEY ARE, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? That's the whole Ideology behind this war. You are uneducated as fuck.

HOWEVER LIKE I SAID BEFORE...

Moderate muslims have never existed. However, now adays Muslims for the reform of Islam do exist. The truth is muslim reformers are few. And since they don't agree with the way the religion of Islam has always been since it's creation they are labled apostates by the religion of Islam (according to the Quran and Hadith.) Islam has never had moderates it only has reformers for the religion of Islam. These people will stand with me against the religion of Islam. There are also muslims like the CAIR who lie publically to protect their faith but who are in private following the same line of thinking as the rest of the unreformed muslims. I'd like to Clarfy muslim for the reform for islam are not moderates either, They are considered apostates by muslims.

The muslims you speak of are considered Apostates of Islam.
You're a stupid motherfucker. You shouldn't checkmate, when
you lost 20 moves ago. LOL!

BIN LADENS LETTER TO AMERICA! HE IS FOLLOWING ISLAMIC JIHAD. To say other wise makes you really look like a dumb lair. And Therefore, Untruthworthy like the rest of that propagandizing bullshit you posted.

A discussion on National Public Radio's (NPR) Diane Rehm Show (Nov. 26, 2002) included a remarkable comment that the conflicts in the Middle East had nothing to do with religion. The speaker went on to say that not even Osama bin Laden has brought religion into it.

Perhaps he should have read the full text of Osama bin Laden's "Letter to America" before contributing to the program. The full text in English, translated from the original Arabic, could have been downloaded from The London Observer newspaper's Web site two days earlier, Sunday, Nov. 24.

Why this has not been read out in full on U.S. television or radio stations is a mystery, as it is likely to impact Americans more than any other news item of the year. Ironically, the previous day's Diane Rehm Show focused on media shortcomings and the declining standards in covering "hard news," with most news programs offering confrontational news-based programs (described as "entertainment" by one participant on the show) rather than a more serious analysis of the major issues.

Bin Laden's letter makes for chilling reading. If the threats contained in it are carried out, then America is set for more 9/11s. It says in part, "If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall and economic bankruptcy."

The letter makes it absolutely clear that the grievances of Islamic fundamentalists have a great deal to do with religion. In fact, the word religion is mentioned 17 times. In addition, there are multiple references to Islam, Islamic Sharia law and Allah, the Islamic name for God.

Some of the statements made are inaccurate. The United States is blamed for starting the AIDS epidemic, which most likely began in Africa. America is charged with supporting "Russian atrocities...in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against (Muslims) in Kashmir..." The Israelis are accused of aiming to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.

But other points made are correct: "You separate religion from your policies." Not only does the Bush administration do this, but clearly, contributors to NPR do too. In truth, this statement gets to the crux of the whole disputeñreligion in the West is very much a private affair. Most peoples' religious observance is confined to an hour on Sunday mornings and a few popular annual holidays. In stark contrast, religion plays a major role in Islamic countries. It is becoming increasingly apparent that Islam and Western secular liberalism are incompatible. If there have been any doubts about this, Osama bin Laden's letter makes it clearñexcept that so little attention has been given to it!

"Why are we fighting you?"

Two questions are directed at Americans. "Why are we fighting and opposing you?" is the first. The second follows: "What are we calling you to do, and what do we want from you?"

The answer to the first question is: "Because you attacked us and continue to attack us." Explaining, bin Laden adds: "You attacked us in Palestine. Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for 80 years." This is a reference to the occupation of Palestine by British troops in December 1917 after four centuries of rule by the Ottoman Turks. Although not Arabs, the Turks were Muslims, which made their rule more acceptable. The presence of Westerners in Palestine is offensive to Muslims. The Israelis are seen as Western colonizers continuing the British, French and American occupations of the Middle East.

Continuing: "The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its price, and pay for it heavily."

Bin Laden continues with an interesting perspective on history. "It brings us laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-Semitism.

This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed...If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this."

Clearly, in the mind of Osama bin Laden and other Islamic fundamentalists, the root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict goes right back to Abraham's two sons, Isaac (ancestor of the Israelites) and Ishmael (ancestor of the Arabs). The background to this is recorded in the book of Genesis, chapters 16 to 21. History from 4,000 years ago directly affects us today.

Criticisms of the United States

While there is insufficient space to quote all of the criticisms directed at the United States, the following are highlights:

"You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of your international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

"Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

"You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3,000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not sat down."

Bin Laden then warns Americans of the consequences.

Threatens all American citizens

At this point, it should also be made clear that bin Laden says the blame for all this does not lie with the U.S. government, but rather with the people. Reasoning that America is a democracy whose government is chosen by the people, bin Laden concludes that the American people are responsible.

"Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies...The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq...Also the American army is part of the American people..."

"If we are attacked, then we have the right to fight back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs."

Osama then comes to the second question: "What are we calling you to do, and what do we want from you?"

Wants Americans to convert to Islam

Answer number 1 ? "The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam." Why is it that so few in the West see the religious dimension here? "It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions..." And if Americans refuse to convert to Islam? Islam, states bin Laden, "is the religion of Jihad (holy war) in the way of Allah so that Allah's word and religion reign Supreme..."

Bin Laden's demands are clear. Americans, all Americans, must convert to Islam if there is to be peace. Israel must also cease to exist. Additionally, Americans must change their entire way of life, ending their dependency on cheap oil and their over-consumption of it.

America's catalog of sins

The "Letter to America" then catalogs the sins of the American people, as perceived by Islamic fundamentalists.

Is this a minority opinion among Muslims? "If you go around the Muslim world, you will find the vast majority of people will support Osama bin Laden," said the Saudi ambassador to London in an interview given to the British Spectator magazine (Sept. 7, 2002). Ghazi Algosaibi said of Britain: "Has it not occurred to you that what goes on in this country is abhorrent to Muslims?" The same could be said of the United States as bin Laden's letter makes clear.

Here are some of the charges the letter makes against America:

"You...choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire (instead of the law of Islam, Sharia). You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator...

"You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them...

"You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom...Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the Oval Office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that 'he made a mistake,' after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and be remembered by nations?

"You are a nation that permits gambling in all forms...

"You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products...You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

"You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly...

"Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts."

Interestingly, most of the above criticisms of America could not have been made 50 years ago, before the secular, liberal reforms of the 1960s and '70s. Prior to that time, the laws of the United States of America were based on the Ten Commandments, the law of God given to the Israelites through Moses. At that time, America was highly respected in the world and was looked to as a nation of hope in a world of darkness. "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people" (Proverbs 14:34).

Osama bin Laden's letter should help Americans to understand contributory factors that have led to international hatred and disrespect for the United States. Perhaps this explains why America's overwhelmingly liberal media have chosen not to highlight this letter, which shows the consequences of all the liberal reforms of the last four decades.

The creation of the nation of Israel in 1948 was certainly a major turning point in relations between the nations of the region and the Western democracies. U.S. support for Israel is the primary reason for the seeming universal hatred of America throughout the Islamic world. U.S. cultural hegemony is another. American movies, television and music portray a decadent culture that has rejected God. Although many Americans themselves are critical of these developments, all Americans are paying a price. God's Word shows that this would be the case.

In Deuteronomy chapter 28 we read of prophesied blessings and curses that would come upon the peoples of Israel (among whom are the American and British peoples) as a consequence of obedience or disobedience to God's laws. "It shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you" (verse 15).

Subsequent verses show that one of the consequences of rejecting God's laws will be increased violence on an horrific scale. "Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country...Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out" (verses 16 and 19).

Islamic fundamentalists are declaring themselves ready and able to administer those curses. Is it God's time to allow them to happen?

One of those groups, CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations, is among the most dangerous to American security. CAIR is an outgrowth of Hamas front group the Islamic Association of Palestine. Oliver "Buck" Revell was the FBI's associate director in charge of Investigative and Counter-Intelligence Operations from 1985 to 1991, in charge of all FBI terrorism investigations. "[The Islamic Association of Palestine] is an organization that has directly supported Hamas military goals," he told Capitol Hill newspaper, "The Hill." "It is a front organization for Hamas that engages in propaganda for Islamic militants. It has produced videotapes that are very hate-filled, full of vehement propaganda. It is an organization that has supported direct confrontation." It is also an organization that exists without impingement in Texas.

Awad was the gentleman with the neatly trimmed beard, sitting a couple seats from Mrs. Bush at the president's big speech to Congress and standing next to Bush at several events, including the D.C. mosque and National Cathedral services. IAP and CAIR, according to Revell, had "intertwined membership" and CAIR used IAP propaganda materials.

Incidentally, Awad – for mysterious reasons – appears to have changed his name. On CAIR's 1994 IRS form 990, he is listed as "CAIR Executive Director Nehad A. Hammad." And then there is the similarity in staff.

Besides Awad, CAIR Director of Communications Ibrahim Hooper also worked for IAP. Rafeeq Jaber, IAP's current president, was a founding director of CAIR.

CAIR's funding comes from groups like the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. When it was founded in 1994, CAIR received its original $5,000 from HLF. Mohammed Nimer, director of CAIR's Research Center, was on the Board of United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), the strategic arm of Hamas in the U.S., according to the New York Times. It was founded by Mousa Abu Marzook, the political chief of Hamas and a well-known terrorist operative.

Awad, in the Muslim World Monitor, called the trial and conviction of the first World Trade Center (WTC) bombers, "a travesty of justice." He has openly expressed his support for terrorist groups, like Hamas. "I am in support of the Hamas movement," he said at a 1994 Barry University panel discussion, "The Road to Peace: The Challenge of the Middle East." He's also openly praised Ayatollah Khomeini. Remember him – the guy who directed the taking of U.S. hostages in Iran?

Hooper, echoing the Taliban government, has always refused to condemn Osama bin Laden. In a 1998 aol.com interview, after the bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa, Hooper said the bombings were a result of "misunderstanding of both sides." Today, he still will not condemn bin Laden, only the attacks on the WTC. Hooper also defended Arab Muslim Sudan's murder of over two million black Christian citizens and the slavery, rape and torture of millions more, dismissing it as "inter-tribal hostage-taking."

Imam Siraj Wahaj, a CAIR board member, is one of the most respected American Muslim leaders and is vice president of the Islamic Society of North America. But, according to Islamic expert Dr. Daniel Pipes, he "calls for replacing the U.S. government with a caliphate." Wahhaj was a character witness for Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman, the Muslim cleric convicted of taking part in the first WTC bombing and planning to blow up U.S. buildings and bridges. Wahaj was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in that case. According to Salon.com, in a 1991 speech before the Islamic Association of North Texas, Wahaj called Operation Desert Storm, "one of the most diabolical plots ever in the annals of history" and predicted that America will fall unless it "accepts the Islamic agenda."

CAIR's demand for the removal of an anti-bin Laden billboard (that merely declared him "the sworn enemy") in Los Angeles, and its protest of the FBI, INS and Customs raid are minor compared to its strong Oval Office connections. It's hard to believe that President Bush pronounced "Islam is Peace" while surrounding himself with the least peaceful representatives of it in America.

Long John Silver and other pirates were a lot less successful because they didn't have groups like CAIR furthering their cause. Silver only had a wooden leg and an eyepatch to show for his efforts.

If it looks like a duck, If quacks like a duck, If swims like a duck,
If it flys like a duck, if acts like a duck, it's a duck.
Therefore, your thread is a joke.

You never answered my questions, so I'll just re-post them below. You keep yakking the same ole thing, over-and-over again. The only thing your doing is getting e-motional, and it shows heavily
*sniff* *sniff* you cry baby.

You said you "pulled the card" on C.A.I.R. but what about the dozens of other organizations, and authoritative speakers of islam, speaking on behalf of the muslim communities? What about the pictures I displayed of iranians and bengali's showing their remorse for the 9/11 victims? Yea that's right, choose to ignore the others, but focus-in on the complications of C.A.I.R. (one organization).

You keep mentioning the "Islamic revolution" of egypt, and i've aready provided you with ample information that they are not supported by sunna wal juma, which is what most muslims follow world wide. The Shiia don't support the "muslim brotherhood" of egypt (wahhabi's) either, and by now you should know what a wahhabi is from my previous post.

Thrilla Ali types: "Sunna wal jamah is what the MAJORITY of muslims follow world wide and NOT wahabism. Sunna wal jamah was over thrown by wahabi's in saudi arabia, and that's why saudi arabia is dictated by wahhabi's (controlling the pilgrimage of hajj for instance) today.

"In many of his "fatawa," Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdi-l-Wahhab labeled Muslims as "kuffars" if they did not agree to his heretical teachings, which opposed the orthodox Islamic beliefs that Muslims had been adhering to for over a thousand years (known as Ahlu-s-Sunnah wa-l-Jama‘ah). When the true Sunni Muslims disagreed with the newly formulated Wahhabi cult, the blood of countless Muslims, including plenty of scholars of Ahlu-s-Sunnah, was made halal by the command of Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdi-l-Wahhab.

Although thousands of Muslims were massacred by the deviant Wahhabis, the scholars of Ahlu-s-Sunnah continued to refute them in their books. An example is what the Mufti of Mecca, Ahmad Zayni Dahlan al-Makki ash-Shafi‘i (rahimah-Ullah) wrote in a work titled "Fitnatu-l-Wahhabiyyah"

The Wahabis, who call themselves Salafis, are a group who appeared in the last few centuries, and hold beliefs contrary to the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah.

Wahabis are considered extremists, and they're scrutinized by the Ahlu-s-Sunnah wa-l-Jama‘ah [international muslims communities world wide] for having such a radical belief system.

Wahhabism is based on the teachings of Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdi-l-Wahhab. There's no doubt that Wahhab *HIMSELF* and his followers declared other Muslims infidels and waged jihad against them."

Thrilla-ali types: You say bin laden justifies his actions through the holy quran, but the KKK justify their racist ideologies [of hate] in accordance to the holy bible, does that make christianity an "extremist" religion too? Mormons bomb abortion clinics because they feel it's their crusade to do so, as well.

As for the "muslim brother hood project" That was part of the "islamic revolution" of egypt which zahkari followed, and i already stated that he was a wahhabi, and their beliefs were the total opposite of sunna wal jama [which 90% of muslims follow world wide]. Wahhabi's are the radicals! Not you average day to day muslims found internationally.