Thoughts about people claiming alien contact

AlienView, I'm glad you mentioned Galileo because I forgot to consider historical accounts when thinking about this topic and it was a major
oversight.

RedCairo thank your for sharing your personal experience.

Originally posted by Nephilimsreturn
People who claim alien contact are, of course, opening themselves to public scrutiny and ridicule.

Not just modern times, but throughout history, whenever someone goes against the believed status quo, they have been subject to such mockery, and in
the past, even death and imprisonment.

Nephilimsreturn,

I believe it is on our nature to mock and fear things that are different than what we are accustomed to. There are certainly lots of examples of this
throughout history. However, I find the UFO field interesting because I believe the ridicule goes way beyond what you might expect. When compared to
other deviations from the norm it seems that there is a knee-jerk reaction that can't be completely accounted for by our nature to fear and mock what
is different.

This contrast is especially stark today when society seems to be converging on a overall view of tolerance. For example, consider people that go
through gender reassignment surgery. Society has become relatively tolerant to this idea (especially compared to the UFO topic). It is my
understanding that candidates seeking this surgery must go through a psychological evaluation and receive a clean bill of health. And yet, at the
same time, we label people as insane for saying that they saw something. I find it odd.

It's not really my intent to push my belief in this thread. My main interest is compiling a list of accounts that either support or contrast this
belief.

Originally posted by RedCairo
I wrote a case study in 1995 for a therapist friend, about a couple very weird years of my life (which included interaction with identities some refer
to as aliens), and among other things on this topic...

Would like to hear more about your experiences myself. What did you mean by "identities"?

Might have to build up to that to make it make sense.

I think we assume too much about source. We assign labels based on the current cultural thinking. Once upon a time it was fey and now it's aliens but
the ancient celts had creature-people that sound astonishing like the nordics and the greys which seems a bit much for coincidence. The book 'Alien
Identities' (Thompson) is probably one of the best books ever in this genre, spelling out documented Vedic history -- and contrasting it with
today's UFOlogy -- anybody with even half a wit can see we're clearly talking about the same things; it just wasn't so secret then. Also, Vallee's
works are good although I don't think I've read them all.

Due to our labeling it gets knee-jerk resistance based on the label rather than the reality. Every model (e.g. alien, demon, hallucination) supports
some paradigms and not others. But to me, it's best to have as few models as possible, because it doesn't matter what it is: even if it's sheer
psychological symbolic interpretation of some quantum field when affected by some obscure frequency, it's still just valid as an experience
and it's still interesting. It doesn't "need" to be any given thing to qualify for that part.

The dispute about whether things are physical vs. psychological, or fey vs. alien vs. mind control and so on, those are armchair secondary issues. The
primary issue which comes before that, is that humans are having this experience all around the world throughout time, with vastly too much
commonality even when clearly unrelated/unknown. It's an anomaly. It's weird and interesting. No matter what secondary label we put on it.

I think we assume far too much about the assumed "objective" nature of reality. This causes some massive paradigms which in turn results in our
people looking everywhere but inward for understanding about anything. (Don't think that by "looking inward" I mean to imply these things are
'merely imagination' or anything. I do however mean to imply that all humans have profoundly more to do with their own perceived reality than we are
aware, though.)

I think we assume too much about the "invalidation of the non-objectively-physical." If we had done this historically to the degree we do now,
science would never have discovered what neutrons or magnetic fields are. At this point even asking a question about something we truly don't know is
science heresy. Science has become mere technologists doing mostly trivial or misleading studies funded by corporations because the PR from a white
paper release reiterated on endless media sources is vastly of more value than paying to buy an ad anywhere.

I think we rely too much on our current limited understanding of technology. It takes one tiny little hypothesized technology -- body bilocation based
on frequency -- even as a rough model for suspending disbelief just to that, to basically wrap up a huge % of the confusion, debate, frustration,
argument about such experiences. So is the argument really about the possibility of aliens, or the possibility of a technology?

I think all creatures are just people. They may not be human or even humanoid. But anything sentient is a person. And sentience has infinite gradients
(and can be cultivated). They may or may not exist at a frequency and sine-wave beat-pattern to fall into the incredibly tiny spectrum of energy that
we call physical reality. Sonar-located objects are not the dots on paper or screen either, but we don't assume what they reflect doesn't exist just
because the dot isn't "real" on its own and someone invented a symbolic way of interpreting information (in a dot inside a circle in green, for
example). Sure it's symbolic. Sure it's a translation. Sure it's virtual, not 'real.' That doesn't make what it is reflecting not-real.

I think most creatures we call aliens have been here longer than our recorded history -- they aren't aliens anymore. In fact given there may have
been genetic tampering in our own history, they as a species may have been around even longer than the current version of us. I think some are locally
developed here as well. The whole concept of alien is slightly ludicrous and displays our limited cultural models. But if we don't consciously know
of them openly now, and they do exist, it's likely the culture-wide rejection of this is 'encouraged' by those who wish to stay private.

On to why I referred to 'identities' -- I just wanted all the above as background --

When I began having such experiences I did not assume they were aliens. I actually assumed they were "archetypes."

I had been doing an 'imaginal' (that is a word coined that means a third reality where imagination but an objective-other reality blend, or the
'interworlds') jungian/shamanic style meditation for a couple of years and, partly from prior hypnosis and biofeedback work and partly from the
meditation and its unique teacher, I had learned to hold a lot of conscious delta brainwave state. So when reality began 'freaking out' as I thought
of it (the kundalini experience side effects), what I thought was that my 'blending' beta and delta as much as I seemed to be doing was causing
"perceptual artifacts."

I knew a doc who ran a sleep center back in the early 90s and she told me that often people would wake up from deep delta and swear they were just
talking to someone in the room. And they were totally aware they had been deeply asleep, but they didn't care, they still swore to the reality of the
experience as different from 'mere dream.' I have had that as well. So I thought I had "accidentally animated the archetypal world for myself" or
something like that.

Early on I had a temporary overdose of lucidity. I'd lucid dreamed regularly and even at will my entire life, and out of body experiences happened
constantly as well -- I thought this was normal for everyone until I was 18. It went away about 80% then when I realized it wasn't. I was about 28
when this began and I had about 3 months of lucidity. I was *never* not-lucid. My body slept. My mind didn't. I got pretty clear that what I'd
thought of as "me" was only one aspect of me and the rest was having an entire life (lives) during the time I'd thought nothing was going on
besides 'dreaming.' I saw many things combined, condensed, a few pieces were left, sequenced, and I thought that was a dream. After that I was only
sometimes lucid but sleep deprivation symptoms set in. I blamed those, an assumed chemical imbalance, an assumed inner ear imbalance, and other made
up things for stuff for awhile.

"Aliens" were not the only experience I was having and in fact that idea didn't show up for awhile, and when it did, I might not have even realized
that's what it was except the experiences itself brought it up (some 'classic UFO symbolism' for example). I was confused, because early on either
I could remember this other world I was constantly in but not the people, or I remembered the people (who, because I was super lucid and would try to
get away, would end up tackling me like maniacs) were humans though diff, and the only thing I knew of "aliens" (outside Star Trek which was fiction
:-)) was Streiber's book cover (which I loathed, hadn't read the book). I couldn't figure out, why the hell were mine blonde people when I thought
aliens were supposed to be bug-eyed weird things? Well there were bugs too, but they had crazy long legs and were 10 feet tall and telepathic. It was
so bizarre!

Even when I realized other people had accounts of the same thing and they called them aliens, I thought that assumption may be wrong. And if not, well
if there was one kind of alien maybe there were a million. Breaking down that box of belief didn't just break it down for those, for me it removed
the box entirely.

I spent time in the library reading up on neural/psyche conditions now and then also, but I had to conclude that a) if I had even half those issues I
wouldn't be totally functional aside from this stuff and I was/am, and b) having tons of unrelated things (which have no real understanding, merely a
label-by-symptom in our culture) fall out of the sky on a normal person all at once with no reason, was as much a stretch for belief as anything else,
and considering it all simply "phenomena in need of better understanding" was the most logical.

I still consider it that. I simply understand now that our culture has certain paradigms. Most fall into the occult category or what I call "cabala
by the book" because after the fact I discover my experiences were not only predictable but even in a certain sequence. I'm not into religion
including that one so I'd find out after I'd written of it and someone told me, usually. (The Abyss, the Holy Guardian Angel, the Angelic Language,
Binah, et al.) Some fall into the alien category. And they may overlap (the Aethyrs may include the worlds of Casteneda's "inorganics" for
example).

I called them 'doons initially, an attempt at humor and to 'make it all equal.' Some mocked this (~'94) saying it was a child's pet term. They
were offended as aliens were ruining their life and I seemed flippant. So I came to call them 'identities', meaning:

A sentient identity I interact with. What, who, how, where it 'is'... who knew? It was real "to me."

As I used to say, "It's just another day." I still had to get up and go to work every morning. So what does the label matter?

Very, very interesting RedCairo. A few concepts immediately come to mind. First your story and comprehension
are interesting enough that you might consider writing a book - come up with a good title and it might sell.
In Buddhist cosmology of existence we are all part of mind - one mind and reality is onto a dream - what is
real and what is imagined may not always be that distinct. Also there was a concept I once heard that the
human mind acts as filter of reality - that if the filter is not working properly we would see so much that we
would go insane - With that in mind I would attempt to control your dreamings to avoid possible madness
- Notice I'm not saying eliminate it entirely, just try to maintain control,
We aliens prefer to communicate with sane humans.

Interesting. I don't know what to make of your experiences, and by your descriptions above, you've had some very unusual perceptional activity.

In Jacques Vallée's last book he wrote about historical accounts of contact with metallic flying saucers and entities going back to Alexander the
Great. He quoted from ancient historical accounts of well known figures including some involving Grays beaming down from silver saucers to abduct
individuals in broad daylight from European villages hundreds of years ago. Abductees were of course tried for practicing black magic and executed.

So, call them what you will, one cannot escape from the evidence of accounts regarding non-human physical entities who come in nuts and bolts craft
using some unknown technology. Everyone has an opinion based on their personal perceptions and cultural filters. The fact remains that they are here.

About the only thing I can conclude after all this time is that we don't know what's going on, we have never known, and the only chance we
have of figuring things out is to toss all our conclusions out the door and begin over again, taking absolutely everything as equal data for
consideration. We cannot make intelligent decisions about what "deserves" to be considered data, let alone what deserves to be considered evidence.
By thinking we can, we pre-choose the answer by pre-choosing the data. That isn't methodical research, it's justification of existing belief
systems, and denial of anything to the contrary.

One of the issues related to 'data' is the confusion between what I call pure UFOlogy (NORAD tracking an unknown flying object or guy-on-street sees
one) vs. the abduction genre (people claiming 'contact' with things which may or may not fit into the 'alien' category depending on which Giant
Assumption we wish to levy upon the identities).

I had an extremely close-up encounter with a UFO when I was 8, along with my best friend Gina. That was pure UFO, and the next day in school my
classmate who was a cop's son was all hyper about how his parents had been talking the night before about how there were all these calls to the cops
about people seeing a UFO. There were offbeat things during the experience (and related to how I remembered it -- or didn't -- afterward). At that
time, I had no association with the concept of aliens at all. I knew of the term UFO but it just meant a great mystery flying in the sky was all, to
me.

On the other hand, during the '93-95 period in my case study, when the cat-eyed lizard guys (who 'drag you out of body' like a conscious OBE and
seldom if ever let you remember anything else. They call themselves 'The Guardians.' Of earth as a property -- not of its cattle, er, people) would
show up, and I would have "my attention called" to look up and see them and I would "know they were here for me." They were in a glowing
red-orange orb in the distant sky, a great deal like the thing when I was 8 except when I was 8 it was horribly physical and close. But in the later
example, when I would look up and see them, this had perceptual phenomena, including that a) this often happened in the brief period when I went
outside in the hot late summer night to the soda machine down by the pool [I know! Let's blame it on soda! LOL] or b) I would look up and see them --
through the ceiling of my apartment. In fact when the latter happened, I would also have the idea that they wanted me to go lay down so we
could get on with it, and I would tell myself, well since you can't normally see through the ceiling, obviously you must be in some altered
state. When this happened, I would be working on my computer doing normal things, or playing guitar or reading -- not really anything that would
make you expect such an altered state as to be having that kind of hallucination. And when I saw them outside, coincidentally it was never while
someone else was with me, so I could never say, "Do you see that??" to them.

So to me, the first experience was "nuts & bolts" -- totally physical, other people as witnesses, nothing but 'aerial phenomenon' (although in
that case it was hovering probably 75 feet from me so not very aerial!), and the second experience falls into the "contactee" category -- only shows
up when you're alone, the phenomenon of seeing it through the ceiling, the 'being dragged out of the body'. The appearance of the two were
similar but not identical, and it's even possible the latter was influenced by the earlier experience.

Either that or there are similar craft like chevy and ford.

My mind was nearly split into two people on the topic. The critical part of my mind basically sat in an armchair and pointed these things out to me in
skeptical fashion, trying to build a case for why I was 'accidentally making it all up.'

In my case study for my friend I quoted a letter someone had written me on compuserve about this ufo vs. contact subject that might be worth putting
here. I'll probably need to put it into a new message --

In my desperate need for SELF-validation, I wouldn't read books on this etc. because anything I heard/read and then experienced I assumed I invented.
And the only thing I had for validation was my own experience. So I didn't want it "polluted" with that of others. I was posting my "weird stories"
directly to a skeptic on an online forum. I didn't post on many other threads as I was working a lot, and didn't know what the hell to say about
anybody else's experience. I was still busy thinking I might be insane, so my opinion of someone I didn't even know on the internet was hardly any
better. You had to pay 8 bucks an hour to be online back then in that area (this is from Dec 1994), and computers at home were actually unusual. So
the genre of people online was radically different (mostly well employed adults with some tech interest and communication skills) than it is on the
modern internet. Letter to me from then, which I put in my case study in late '95:

(quoting me) >>What do you think? Would it be better for people to peruse the stories of others, whether personal or researchers, even if it
might influence them, just to better understand what's already happened and/or will happen? Or should people like me try to live in a cave away from
the subject lest we be 'influenced' into an event that loses its... well, objectivity? (As if there were much of that in any experience to begin
with...)

I don't have much to add except that I know firsthand there have been programs within the intelligence services to promote the subject with one hand
then, after it gets out, to ridicule it via the press and other media.

A very well orchestrated, if not despicable practice that served its purpose of deflecting eyes and attention away from the secret projects (stealth
bomber and fighter as two examples) it was executed to protect.

I guess my point is that as a society we are taught to go along to get along.This includes not thinking outside the "norm" and certainly not
proclaiming anything outside the "norm". So when people come forward with a tale of alien contact, abduction, etc... it's going to get "the
treatment" from their peers in general, throw in the resources of the U.S. (and many others) government's various intelligence services being
applied to the Main Stream Media and you have a full court press of manipulation and attitude conditioning.

I wonder what if any difference there would be in society's reaction to these things if that manipulation had not happened? For that matter, I have
no reason to believe it doesn't still happen.

Your listed cases and many of the classic "air-tight best" cases for UFOlogy, including Betty/Barney Hill but also cases like Rendlesham, Belgian
Wave, Cash Landrum, Phoenix "Lights".....make clear the state UFOlogy is in and where the actual problem is!

Do you notice something?

None (NONE!) of those so called "best cases" has any undeniable evidence backing it up and we have no proof in form of photos or videos, we have
3rd-hand witness account and this is ALL what that cases are based on. What does this tell you about the phenomenon? Do you believe in the "red
cougar cuckaroo aligator bird" from Borneo..even if there is no proof whatsoever that it really exists?

* Betty/Barney Hill

I read the last book about this case which was co-written by Stanton Friedman, supposedly a book which would back up this classic case, better than
the Fuller book. For me this new book had the exact opposite effect. It made clear to me that Betty and Barney were extremely poor witnesses who
couldn't even remember who of the both walked the dog when asked during regression.

Betty was extremely pre-occupied and biased in regards to UFOs, she was not only a very poor witness (as the book nicely shows, IMO)...but later on
has shown that she interpreted any street-light etc. as "UFO" and seemed to have entirely lost the ability to critical think...she was even
criticized for that by other researchers.

For me it is clear that Betty and Barney saw SOMETHING..but there are so many factors coming into play with this case that it (for me) entirely lost
any credibility.

* Cash Landrum case
Another often cited case which is "oh-so-air-tight". There is no question that they saw SOMETHING and there is also no question they experienced
physical harm from the object which ultimately even led to the untimely passing of one of the witnesses.

However, you know that Betty (I think it was Betty) stepped out of the car and got the burns because she stared at the object for so long because she
BELIEVED IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AND JESUS COMING OUT FROM THE LIGHT? What does this say about the witness(es)?

* Rendlesham Forest
has been a "good" case, over and over cited in the literature, up until a few years ago where Jim "came forward" with its ridiculous "binary
code" tale...basically exposing at least himself as a hoaxer...basically invalidating the entire case.

*Belgian Wave /Phoenix "Lights"

Over weeks or months, people reported and saw huge flying triangles (and...we do INDEED have radar footage I think from a jet scrambling one of
them)....but beside the fact that authorities saw them as well...sometimes for many minutes, we don't have a single photograph or footage? Explain
that!

Phoenix - the same thing: Giant triangles are reported over a major city and seen by XXXXX people - and we don't have one bit of proof it even
happened? How is that even logically possible? No one went inside and got a camera? Why is that? (Note that the existing footage which everyone knows
is NOT the triangles, but the flare footage which ma not even have any relationship to the triangles)

And so forth, and so forth...what I want to point out is that those so called "best cases" after some investigation and research all collapse and
become "not so great anymore"...and of course the fact that we don't have a yota of proof which could stand a scientific investigation. Zero.
Zilch.

I am never surprised about the reactions people have to our abduction experiences. I regret that I once agreed to share a written account of our
experiences online- at that time, I was new to internet, and hadn't realized it would spread all over the world- that all my family members, would
read it... that even to this day, people I meet for the first time will Google my name out of curiosity, and find that.

It is a serious blow to my credibility and public image. But I understand. I had no interest in UFO phenomenon at all when this started to happen, and
if anyone brought up the subject I would laugh. If I had met anyone that had described the experiences I ended up having, I would make the exact same
assumptions they make- that the person was delusional, psychotic, or just plain imaginative.

I would also assume they were "into" this stuff beforehand- that the experience was stimulated by a desire to have such contact.

But I was not into any "fringe" subjects- not ufos, ghosts, bigfoot, psychics.... I was (am) a pretty down to earth person, who suddenly had the
impossible happen to her, and was thrown into a state of confusion and trauma- not because anything painfuyl was done to me (I did not have things
stuck in my eyes or that sort of stuff)- I just could not make sense out what was happening.

I still do not believe in aliens. I don't believe in anything though. That was the big choice to make- either label this and make some sort of
conclusions about it (which I didn't feel I could do), or accept that everything in life is questionable- because some of these experiences were as
real-seeming as any moment of the day. If that was a hallucination, then it could all be. This moment right now might be.

So I have decided to just make no excuses, not try to comfort myself, nor others with explanations. They will have to make that decision for
themselves. I know only what I experienced, and cannot tell the nature of it, and if they want to proclaim me crazy or whatever, they can. If it makes
them feel more secure... and allows them to think they have a "grasp" on what is and what isn't.

I personally found that, whatever the nature of the entities, having the experience had a profound and beneficial effect upon me- it set off a
spiritual awakening, in the way it shook up my framework of thought.
So I don't care who or what it was. I have lost interest in that.

Springer
A very well orchestrated, if not despicable practice that served its purpose of deflecting eyes and attention away from the secret projects (stealth
bomber and fighter as two examples) it was executed to protect.

Really? I should read more on these things but they tend to cause me some cognitive dissonance so I usually don't. I don't want to take the thread
offtopic but how could abduction stuff be used to cover for those? Or do you just mean claimed UFO sightings?

Some of my array of experiences, years later, I felt might have included stuff that had nothing to do with aliens or abduction but other excuses for
screen memories and missing time made to look like that. (It's a great cover since it's just likely to make anyone claiming it sound insane.) This
probably should have occurred to me long before it did, given my involvement with hypnosis for a dozen years before that and some of its people.

Not to mention many of my experiences were suggestive. In my journals and following case study from them, I several times got into the wondering about
multiple personality disorder, there were several indicators, except that I did not have the kind of early childhood which at the time was believed to
be required for that. Since then I think there is some evidence that this is not actually required and/or can be forcibly recreated hypnotically. At
the time of the experiences, my first caught 'screen memories' were long before any of the weird stuff started happening (assuming you don't
consider a screen memory weird lol), years before when I'd been working by the navy base (which I mention only because it was the same city which,
years later during those experiences, I once found myself lost in the middle of driving, when I'd been 20-30 minutes away in another city an instant
before far as I knew).

Between then and now I've done a lot of intuitive work (let's just call it meditation) which has resulted in quite a number of what
feel-like-memories (and have consistent elements) except I have no place to put them. Well I do but it would require "assuming" that all the missing
time during that period of my life is where they belong. Most of them are terrifying, most involve threat, violence, death, guys in olive khakis,
caves clearly natural but further built-out, stuff I've got no conscious memory of. Weird and dreadful and worrying stuff. (The first time I saw the
movie "The Long Kiss Goodnight" I was a freak for days, I think it triggers something in me, that topic of suppressed personality/memory and
violence, many of the memories were horrible. Eventually, yet more years later, I intentionally did a lot of psychology work with myself to attempt to
clear and integrate all this, once I realize it didn't matter how much it might be 'just imagination', it was clearly powerful enough to be having
a real effect on me anyway. I think I am pretty cool with it now.)

It's been twenty years since the case study. I'm getting around to publishing the case study more formally maybe next year, at my best friend's
insistence, maybe just on amazon kindle or something. When fairly recently rereading and adding a couple chapters near the end, I think I feel
differently about some of it now, just some of the experience, a few. I think there is very likely some ufology-used-as-cover-memories for stuff going
on that amounts to black or transparent ops.

However, since most everyone I see talking about such things appears to be a complete lunatic, the last thing I want to do is join them there, so I
added just a mention of it in the new version, because it seemed dishonest to leave it out, but didn't go into it much. I actually didn't know
until probably 10 years after all that when I read something online that one of my experiences in particular sounds like total textbook of the
"electronic mind control" stuff -- thank god only one of them or I'd probably be in a padded cell somewhere now.

One theory I had (in retrospect) was based on my 'awareness' during some 'experiences' that our people (me, but my species as a whole) went
through this kind of stuff a lot but it was all under the radar of our awareness. The theory that spawned was that maybe when people encounter
something which affects their belief systems about the topic -- from a UFO sighting, to covert psych work on them, to the sincere account of someone
they respect, whatever, even if they don't remember it consciously -- that maybe the shift in subconscious belief systems / validation actually
starts opening up the ability for recall.

I've met several people who had a nuts&bolts UFO encounter often with others, after which they began gradually remembering a variety of weird stuff
from over the course of their life, and becoming aware of present-time odd experiences. From the hypnotic angle you just have to wonder if the reality
is just that their belief system had no room for it at first, which was my observation about myself long ago, and once it did, once there were labels
and some kind of external validation no matter how small, all the sudden all those mental database entries that looked like NULL without a label
started showing up as a valid part of the memory-set.

I think the part of this topic that I still find the most weird is that here I was thinking I was alone in the universe, some totally unique crazy
experience, and later when I went to the net (compuserve back then) and tentative shared an account, people all but yawned. Yeah yeah, that's old
news, lots of people have talked about XYZ. My mind was boggled. "No way!" I mean to me, that was a huge validation, if someone I never met actually
recounted the same kind of experience. I had one very intense experience which was too weird to be anything but bizarre and unique to me, I was sure.
And it "blended" every element you can blend -- from dreaming, to faery myths, to spiritual stuff, to either parallel world or future world, to
alien stuff. What the hell do I do with that? If it's one thing at one point, how does it become another at another point, without ALL points being
hallucination?

During that experience, I (as usual) got 'lucid' and (as usual) got my ass kicked totally by the blonde men (they are way too enthusiastic about
that). One of them reached to his back and pulled out this thing that looked like an oxygen mask -- my mom died when I was 9, and was wearing one when
I last saw her, so I knew what they looked like. But it was clear not blue, and had no tubes. I somehow "knew" it was really bad for my brain and I
held my breath. Then a super tall telepathic bug female told him he was "overreacting as usual" and that it was "harmful and unnecessary" and she
saved me. (I would often find myself talking to the bugs. But mind misdirected from their bodies or I'd freak out.) I 'came to' at precisely the
same time every morning for eons, and I was wide-eyed wide-awake with full memory that time. But how to be 'there' for a 'physical' thing like
that if I came to in bed?

Bilocation is the only tech that could make it make sense.

Later I found Travis Walton's story. Blonde guys. Oxygen mask-like thing. I was definitely not familiar with it IMO. I hyperventilated when I heard
it just from the 'validation.' Then cried! LOL. That is way too weird to be coincidence.

As a note, though, I found the movie fire in the sky, later, confusing and the elements either unfamiliar or very differently interpreted.

What a great thread. Absolutely one of the best to come about in the abduction phenomenon.

I myself still tuck it away as cross-dimensional happenings. But that is where I began, so it could very well be that I'm boxed upon my perceived
notions. As a teen and young adult, I dabbled extensively with the occult. So I naturally associated any strange happenings as a direct result of
those dabblings. But my high stangeness occurances began as a child, according to my mother which she believes led me to my occult interests.

I didn't ever really consider or look into the UFO/abduction phenomenon until after I left the military. I knew of the hype - UFOs and what-not, but
I've always felt we were dealing with kin, cross-dimensional beings that share our space outside our normal range of perception. I still think it's
the same phenomenon being approached from different ways. A you say tomato, I say tomatoe - sort of thing.

Fascinating and unnerving feelings all the way around on the issue. Very much enjoyed your take and recounting of experiences.

Springer
...
I guess my point is that as a society we are taught to go along to get along.This includes not thinking outside the "norm" and certainly not
proclaiming anything outside the "norm". So when people come forward with a tale of alien contact, abduction, etc... it's going to get "the treatment"
from their peers in general, throw in the resources of the U.S. (and many others) government's various intelligence services being applied to the Main
Stream Media and you have a full court press of manipulation and attitude conditioning.
...

I really like the new look for the site. Well done.

I think your suggestion does a good job of explaining the lion share of society's reaction. However, I have made an interesting observation in social
settings. There appears to be a barrier that goes beyond the normal taboo filter. I don't have specifics because it gets into body language and the
manner in which people deflect a topic.

I have never personally witnessed an object I couldn't identify and I've had no unusual experiences. So I feel that I'm mostly an unbiased observer.
The thought has occurred to me on more than one occasion when I witness the deflection I mention above that perhaps there is a global social
consciousness. A meme may be an example of this consciousness manifest. I'm not sure what the mechanism would be. It could be as simple as an
exchange of information through the internet and mainstream media through audio and visual stimulus. When electromagnetic radiation was first
discovered the mechanism and transport medium wasn't clear but the effect of the wave was measured nevertheless.

Perhaps it is just pressure from the government and the media creating a conditioning feedback loop in all of us. I think Dr. Seuss suggested as much
with "Horton Hears a Who". I sometimes wonder though.

NoRulesAllowed
And so forth, and so forth...what I want to point out is that those so called "best cases" after some investigation and research all collapse and
become "not so great anymore"...and of course the fact that we don't have a yota of proof which could stand a scientific investigation. Zero.
Zilch.

Do you think that the people making these claims are mistreated by modern society? If so, do you feel that it is justified or are they mistreated
more than they should be? I ask that you consider my analogy of gender reassignment surgery vs. somebody making claims of alien contact. Here is the
tag at the top of this thread with the analogy:

If the claims cannot stand up to scrutiny and no credible evidence can be produced, expect rational and logical thinking human beings to not only
question it but, to be suspicious and ridicule those making outrageous claims.

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
I still think it's the same phenomenon being approached from different ways.

This seems likely.

Although it appears to be mostly used for pseudo-debunking rather than anything of real value sadly, I find Michael Persinger's work very interesting
(neurological stimulation) as well as the McKenna brothers' accounts (related to organic substance-based neurological stimulation) for this reason.

It is entirely possible that 'reality' [being a cute label for a miniscule fraction of a physics equation of which we are only one part] is just part
of a much larger universe we are oblivious to. I do not mean merely "out in the stars" (which I actually find slightly amusing, as if "linear space"
is all we can imagine) but rather in other "beat-patterns" and frequency bands that are literally 'here and now' but not perceptible to the tiny
result of our biological filter... and that a "doorway to access the perception of these things" may in fact exist in humans (such as in the nervous
system).

This would, essentially, tie the anthropology of the McKennas, the mad scientism of Persinger, and the woo of Casteneda, all into the same system, in
a manner of speaking -- merely on a spectrum.

Thus far our reductionist science has treated psychology the way the proletariat masses have treated mystics. Some guy with a bright idea points out
something (e.g., "love your brother") and instead of saying, "Great idea! Let's love our brothers!" people go, "Oooh! He's a holy man!" and want to
put him on a pedestal (or burn him at the stake). In other words, they are like that really stupid dog which instead of looking at what you are
pointing out, is absolutely obsessed with your pointing finger.

They never get the message because they're hung up on the messenger or delivery.

When it comes to these kinds of experiences, particularly with the empirical evidence of such accounts throughout so many cultures and so much of
time, it would be reasonable to look at what is being experienced as the point of interest; instead, the focus is entirely on the individuals
experiencing it and whether they appear to constitute validation (tip: no physical evidence = sheer lunacy, give it up).

The global and indefinite nature of such experiences suggests that individuals, like brain neurons, are probably only the 'doorway' to a
'perceptual world.' Obsessing on the frame of the doorway, leading to great angst and arguments about the details of the door and the knob, completely
ignores that we have innumerable first-hand eye-witness testimonials to what is through that doorway. Like the atom they cannot hold in their
hand and measure and hence is "magic," for many the doorway is valid because it is solid, but nothing out of sight on the other side can be real.

The magical mystical religious - esque reaction that this genre of human experience is treated with, is often a behavior far more pronounced on the
part of the 'debunkers' than on the part of the subjects, interestingly enough.

I find if one removes the point of contention from the subject -- let us merely assume it is a similar neural biological accidental perceptual
effect, and not "real," so nobody has to take it seriously enough to be frightened -- then the model can change. In my case study, about this area
I wrote:

For all the theories about this stuff, the bottom line is that it is affecting people. In many cases, it is scaring people. In some cases, it is
hurting people. From the personal issues of fearing for one's sanity, to the social issues of "coming out of the closet" about the experiences, to the
religious beliefs and fears that come into glaring relief, to the psychological issues that are brought out in full force by this, to the
physiological symptoms and mind-boggling 'paranormal' side-effects, any of these can be devastating, but particularly when you combine all of those
effects simultaneously!

This is not improved by wanna-be gurus who will ‘help you remember’ an invariably lousy experience, any more than it is by scientists and
psychologists, our own experts and our best hope, insisting they won't study the subject because "they know there's nothing to study."

If we can't be professional enough objectively, let's at least be compassionate enough personally to look into what can be done to help people work
through the effects of these experiences, whatever their true cause. I'd like to spend less time searching for gods and aliens and more time searching
for ourselves. It seems to me that in the quest for understanding our own people, the source of our experiences may eventually become
clear.

You are right about Jacque Vallee, but the very first thing that got him going was his own experience as an astronomer in France..

The following is paraphrased right from one of his books, a couple of which I've read recently....

One night he and some colleagues were working and saw something totally inexplicable, but when they took the documentation to superiors, it was
destroyed and they were told never to bring it up again...

Everyone whom has had an experience on this subject has a perspective that cannot be fully understood from this side of the fence. I have had no
contact, but know of a few that has, and it changed them. This change is almost immeasurable from our view and without proof of non-contact, I believe
most of these accounts. We have NO clue of time progression, where we are in the time scale, early, middle or late. Time is not a new concept,
therefore we very well could be past the 990 Trillion year mark or later in the grand field. This thinking does not lean toward lone entity, nor
single big bang. Too many chances for life and advancement long before we were dwelling off of the shoreline. Our science is just an infant in an
arena of elders, and we do not know jack, only non experienced theories that we cannot prove. Somewhere there are answers, and these people are the
first step to the journey of thruth. The character Randy Quaid played in Independence Day had a history of contact and it changed his life and
relationships. After the "invasion" and as they were begging for pilots, the scene followed as he claimed to be an abductee, he was ridiculed even
as they were preparing for an attack on an alien race, this is the irony of ignorance we strive to maintain as we breech the unknown everyday. Do not
let other people be your throttle in pursuit of the truth...

I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of input, but I had to commend you on a fascinating post. The discussion that has followed has been very
interesting. It seems to be human nature to discredit something without pyhsical proof that it exists or that it happened. The exception to this
however is religion. Many christians accept the Bible and everything written within as proof of God and past events. They do not hesitate to belive
that Jesus was crucified and then rose again 3 days later. However someone says they were driving along, saw some lights and lost the rest of the day
they must of course be delusional or sleep deprived or any other excuse.
Just to make it clear I'm not trying to bad mouth religion or anything, I believe in God myself I just dont agree with organised religion. It just
confuses me how so many people can believe im somethjng so wholeheartedly on faith alone, and dismiss other things on the basis there is supposedly no
evidence. It seems kind of hypocritical to me. My mum for example is a Christian and believes in God and the Christian faith, however refuses point
blank to even think about the possibility of other life in the universe. I dont know, it just confuses me, lol.
Once again I am not trying to cause some angsty religious debate, its just the comparison that always appears in my mind when people are mocked or
dismissed for their experiences or beliefs :-/

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