Women Want To Be With Men Less Physically Attractive Than They Are

I was reading the post about men’s smarts and their value. You made a comment about women not wanting a guy hotter than themselves. I understand what you meant, but wondered how far you could carry that logic.

That is, women do not want a man who is hotter than her because hotter women will hit on him and she has a fear he might step up to a new woman. Having said that, is the implication that the hotter women will go for lesser looking men?

The examples I see are Goldie Hawn, being with Kurt Russel. Russel is an alpha male, as demonstrated by his life, but his boyish looks died years before he got with her.

Another is Demi Moore, in that for years, she was with Bruce Willis…another alpha male, but whose looks were never on the Ashton Kutcher level. Speaking of which, I suspect it was him who made the split…and that she is batshit crazy. But, that also points to the fact that after she hit the wall is when she went for the looks guy over the alpha male.

What are your thoughts?

Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore are were the notable exception to the rule — there is a lot of talk about them in the media and amongst wishfully thinking aging cougars because their arrangement is was so rare and, hence, conspicuous. But as the invisible groin of the sexual market worked its self-regulating magic, Kutcher eventually cheated on his older lover with a bevy of much younger cuties, driving Moore insane with self-loathing and fear of her rapidly encroaching sexual obsolescence (which she desperately tweeted to the world in the guise of blurry, half-naked bathroom shots). Who can blame a prowly has-been?

Nevertheless, it is absolutely the case that most women prefer men, at least for long-term relationships, who are not physically better-looking than they are. The matter was discussed in this archived post. The referenced scientific study provided evidence for the curious real-world observation that there are a nontrivial number of couples featuring average looking men with cute chicks hanging off their arms. And the phenomenon of downright ugly men with beautiful women is, based on my steely-eyed observation, a good ten-fold more common than the inverse.

New research reveals couples in which the wife is better looking than her husband are more positive and supportive than other match-ups.

The reason, researchers suspect, is that men place great value on beauty, whereas women are more interested in having a supportive husband.

There are a few reasons for this sex differential in attractiveness criteria, some of which were mentioned in the study. I’ll clarify.

1. Very good-looking men have more opportunity to stray, so less attractive women would not want to risk being with them out of fear of investing themselves only to lose to a hotter interloper.

2. Very good-looking men have higher testosterone than less physically attractive men, and are thus more likely to pursue extrapair fornications. Women instinctively know this, and the less attractive of them avoid dating much better-looking men, influenced by their visceral grasp of the relationship power imbalance.

3. Men place more emphasis on women’s beauty than women place on men’s looks, and this innate predilection manifests as a willingness (and a honed ability) by men to strive harder than women for mating and LTR opportunities with relatively hotter opposite sex prospects.

But the most important reason, I believe, is egoism.

4. Men and women love to enjoy the privileges of their greatest strengths. It brings them happiness. For women, this means that they love the feeling of power that their beauty gives them. A woman who is with a better-looking man has that power robbed from her in subtle and in sometimes transparently humiliating ways; she has to deal with the attentions of female competitors, the attention her lover gives to female competitors, and the unspoken, but not any less felt, degradation of her number one asset. When a woman can’t leverage her beauty because the better-looking man she is with doesn’t value it as much as a less attractive man would value it, she loses a sense of purpose to her life.

It’s a similar dynamic to the stay-at-home dad married to the breadwinner wife. Maybe he thinks he scored by marrying a rich woman who can give him an easy life dusting up around the house, but over time nagging doubts about his masculinity and his wife’s faithfulness — even if she gives him no reason to doubt her fidelity — will eat away at his self-esteem. He will drift into an ennui of purposelessness and dreamscapes of receding chins and pendulous manboobs, because the soul-enriching feeling that comes with being able to leverage the natural male power which resides in providing, leading and dominating will have been stripped from him. Subcutaneous machinery of self-doubt will gradually shred well-intentioned insistent, mutual professions of love.

The reader asks if hot women will go for lesser looking men. The answer is that hot women will go for higher status men: an evasive answer befitting a misguided question. Women won’t actively seek out uglier men, but they will feel imperceptible compulsions to avoid dating men better-looking than themselves, which ultimately means that many women will wind up in the arms of less physically attractive (but perhaps higher status!) men. The study linked above suggests that all women, not just hot women, will gravitate into LTRs with men who are less good-looking compared to themselves. And they will be happier for it.

The study also implies women are more open to an uglier man’s game than men are open to flirting with uglier women. While ugly men won’t turn women’s heads, a bold ugly man can overcome the obstacle of his ugliness with the right attitude and seduction skill set. This is only true because physical ugliness is not the crippling deficit to a man’s dating success that physical ugliness would be to a woman’s dating success. It’s a difference of degree so pronounced that it almost qualifies as a difference of kind.

This doesn’t mean you can be an ugly man and expect hot babes to line up for the ego-boosting thrill of your comparative ugliness. You’ve still got to offer something women value, whether that’s money, charm, talent, game or social status. But it does mean that you can, and should, do better than your ugly looks have conditioned you to believe, particularly if LTRs are your goal.

This is all very good news for those uglier men who think game can’t help them date a point or two higher up the female attractiveness scale.

Maxim #214: Most men can get cuter girls than they think. False psychological projection of their own sexual attraction mechanism onto women blinds them to this reality.

High Fructose Postscript

Some of you have no doubt heard stories about, or experienced for yourself, women who seem to go for nothing but looks when choosing which men to date. You’re not imagining things. A minority of women — I’d estimate 10-15% of the fertile female population — place excess emphasis on men’s looks, almost on a par with the emphasis that men place on women’s looks. These women tend to be more masculinized than the typical woman. They aren’t necessarily unattractive, but they are less feminine than their curvier sisters. They usually have small tits and narrow hips, although their asses can retain their juiciness. They have manly personalities and are argumentative and horny all the time. They cheat without remorse. The sluttiest slut I’ve been with was one of these types who gun for the hottest guys in the room, and couldn’t be trusted as far as I could jackhammer her. (Which, proud to say, was clear across the lengthwise distance of the bed.)

If you meet one of these types, jump for joy. You’ve just gotten a ticket to ride her with minimal investment. They like sex, and they are easy to justify dumping for more loyal, less sexually predatory women. Be mentally prepared to catch her cheating, so when the inevitable parting of ways occurs, it’ll be no skin off your nose.

Interestingly, I have a pretty good hunch that a lot of female readers of sex-related blogs written by men, like Le Chateau, fall into this “looks-centric” masculinized female category. This explains the outsized vocal insistence by this minority of blog-traversing women that male looks are the most important thing in their suite of attractiveness criteria. Some of them are likely lying to score troll points, but some are telling the truth. Nevertheless, keep in mind that these women do not represent the majority of women you will meet in real life, offline. Most cute girls will not consider your average looks a dealbreaker, if you have some decent game or other compensating trait to woo them.

My experience is the opposite. Couples tend to be more similar to each other, rather than dramatically different.

That is, a hot girl will be going out with a decent looking guy. Maybe not a hot guy, but not a fat slob either. Like a 9 girl with a 7-8 guy. A 1-2 point difference is what I’d say is the most typical.

The 9 girl with a 5 guy (or lower) stands out of the crowd, especially if you get a bunch of 9 girls together with their boyfriends.

Also, the bell curve for female beauty is shifted relative to that for male beauty. There are more female 9s than male 9s, just like there’s more male six-footers than female six-footers and more male geniuses than female geniuses. It’s a damn good thing that women and men are happiest when the man is a bit taller, a bit smarter, and a bit uglier, because that’s what we’ve got to work with.

You sound like a friend of mine. He’s always pointing out couples and asking “why’s that hot girl with that ugly dork?”

Then I look over and the dork is 6’3″, fit, strong jawline, $200 jeans.

I guess it’s a good mentality to have (and at least you’re not homo). But in my opinion, the vast majority of couples seem to be about the same in looks, +/-1. Still, I agree with CH and you can get cuter girls than you’d think.

Woodman is undoubtedly an extremely chill man expert at escalation, and living in abundance, but remember the reality is not what the casting videos show because of what is left out, i.e.

– the girls self-select from those willing to have sex for money in a cold rational premeditated manner
– he pays them to attend the casting, and pays them to have sex
– he is the gatekeeper with one of the world’s largest porn companies behind him promising a certain lifestyle and career
– there’s a feeder system of flunkies to put these girls in front of him
– many of the castings go nowhere, and thus no video, we get the highlights
– quite a few of the girls are smoking hot, but there’s also lots of grotty skanks

What Woodman is very good at is teasing out the sexuality of a woman who is already extremely receptive to the idea. Good luck to him.

alpha fucks and beta bucks
dat is how we roll
da butthexting cockass we fucks and sucks
and in our anuthes it doth deosul
alpha fucks and beta bucks
it is da way of da fed
to transfer assetss to dose who butthext
cuckold dose who pay for our bread
beta bucks and alpha fucks
it’s what day teach us we;’re entitled too
da assetts from betas we plucks
after da alphas desol us through our hole for poo
lzozozlzzolzlzlzlz
cuckold da betas cockhold da alphas
datsz what day taught us in mba grad school
as da feiisnsits see no truth nor justice in their laws
and say da great books for menz was all fools.
yes, yes, i did very good on my gmats
dey bernenakifed my soul away, left me with cats

Sort of agree but if women are smart enough to understand that better looking men will cheat it seems to reason they can figure out that high status uglier men will figure out their worth in the sexual market as well. Look at the CEO of Oracle. Ugly mofo womanizer. Don’t mean to split hairs or anything. Frasier married a playboy model but he ended up leaving too.

I think it’s a true post, but the general rule is still that the hottest women pair up with the hottest men. What’s being discussed here might be a deviation that’s frequent enough to notice and that can help out some men, but the general reality is still hot guys with hot girls for sex as well as LTR.

[heartiste: did you even bother to read the linked scientific study? please do, and then come back and comment.]

Conversely looks for a man is as much “cash in the bank” as acting alpha is, at least in my experience. Girls have stayed with me and still been submissive and sexual even after I told them about my cuckold fetish, something about as beta and faggoty as could be for a man. You can get away with a lot more beta behavior as a good-looking guy.

[you can get away with a lot of everything with the right alpha attitude, regardless of looks.]

Regarding the phenomenon of attractive husbands with less attractive wives, what’s going on there? I’ve even seen handsome men with quite plain women. Is that to be explained completely by the husband’s being a beta fuck.

Regarding the alpha attitude issue, I’m wondering about how much beta actual behavior one could get away with simply by having an alpha attitude. I think yes you’re right, women are so irrational that even if you tell them about beta behaviors you engage in, they will ignore it (to an extent) if you actually have alpha attitude in the moment. Aside from above I’ve also told girls about being addicted to video games and other stuff like that. In fact sometimes they don’t even believe it or remember it when you tell them about beta stuff you’ve done or like.

I already admit to being a degenerate so I don’t see what you think you gain by insulting me. Yes I agree with what you say, so what? It’s an interesting test case, to see how much actual lame behavior you can get away with if you have “alpha attitude.” I would guess a lot. Girls will even just close their eyes to a lot of beta or awful stuff.

The majority of things you’re wondering about has been discussed in the archives. The executive summary (elegantly stated by GBFM) is: “alpha fucks and beta bucks” because that’s how shit operates in the decockracy!

hey holden hey holden just wannated 2 say dat it i ok you lost the fencing foil on the ny subwayz lzozozozo please tell peoepebe phoee i said hello and let her reach fro the godlen ring on the carouslslelsls and yah mr. antolini wanted to buttehxt you like tucker max rhemeyyehes with godoman sax but he didn’t woulddn’t tape it secrteely like da neejncocths tucker max rheyme sitwh godlmans ax didid odoeos lzozlzlzzloz an i can see you little brortehr’s red hair who dies of cancner holding the catcher’s mit and if a body see a body coming through the rye and taht sally as a rea a real bitchct rela btch but who cares who cares if a girl is late as olong as she looks great lzozlzozlzo and when you were aout dancicng with thseo two womenz you notuced they were looking fro movei starz movie starz they came with tehir eggz to find movie starz to have the movei satrz insemieneiate their egegegsz zlzozlzl like da evolutionary awwoemsn psychcologist buoloigist heartsiets reports on daily but holden say saw the ympergamous hypergamous females toooo soo anyayawzz holden my favoriet lay is hamlet too and i know whne pheoene liked teh guy who pet the dog and we must honor even the keellteellee drummer who hits the drum a couple times but does it well and ackley kid ppopping his h pimplez lzozozl and stradlater as the asshole who fucked the girl jane who holden was nce too when a tear drop dropped form her eye onto the chedkckoboard beuacu ehr dad had been a butthfucikerz zlozlz ootsa buuttcickfkerz in da world holden wa socming of age and seeing and he wanted to rerase teh word eras ethw word “fuck” form all of da lzozzloz from all of the worlzzz but da dtucker max rhemey iwth goldman sax win the world for teh day but holden jesus and da gbfm win all of eteirniety zlzoozz for i saw a pael horse a pale horse and on that horse was death and hell followediwth thim lzozlzzozozlzozozo holden, like hamlet, was man in balck lzozlzlzo:

but its ok you left the foils on the subwayz holden, just wnated to say zlzlzozooz

Well I don’t totally understand the phrase because “bucks” can mean so many things (does it refer to $)? But I agree with the general idea that women want alpha guys for fucking and beta guys for support/nurturing etc. because women are evil and cruel and built that way. That doesn’t mean they’re into satisfying my fantasy KATE, OK? Also you don’t have to believe me when I toot my own horn but I don’t fit the profile of a beta degenerate, not when people look at me or see how I act day to day.

Still, my questions above stand, and have nothing to do with this. I’m curious about those questions.

How are my questions related? I’m asking two things. Why you see a considerable # of good looking guys with plain jane girls? And how much actual beta behavior can you get away with if you have alpha attitude in the moment?

Has nothing to do with “alpha fucks beta bucks” or my twisted fantasies.

of course we are defining “alpha” in the way that women define “alpha,” which is sectriev taperz of bu7tthex and thugs and secrteiev stpapers of butthex and druggies and thugs and heroin addicts and asecrteive tapers of buttehxt like tucker max rhymes iwth goldman sax who da womenz prisicilla paintion editor in chired at asimon and schuster d sodom and scheiter publsihes and pofrits pormotes while neooncon womenz aging dusty gina dried up butthole women like chraloote allen charlotte allenz at da wekkly satdnadth repates tucker max rhymes iwth goldman sa xlides adat he is six feet tall while calling him a successuff success film mmaker even though his film lost over $10,000,0000 of its $12,000,000 budgetss zlzoozl

so you see dat to owmenz as long as you butthext and tape it secrtely without the girlths ocntent and lie aout your height, they see you as an alpha

if you jump on grenades in war to save your fellow men and work hard and are honest and honorable then you are a beta lzlzozozzozozo

so womenz want da buttehxting cock as it makes their anuth tingle, and den after dat dey want da good men to protect and provie for them

anywho bernake ad da cnetral bamksters recognized dis procilvity in womenz and put it to work! as they can only create debt fiat debt, tehy create dthe feminists wmovementz to transofrm that debt mere fiat debt it into physical goodz and sercives by teahcing women how to transfer welath from men and assock their husbandz in divorce ocurt after dey were buttcocked by “alphas” sectriev butthexting tapers of buttehxt in colleg like tucker max rhemey with goldman ssax lzozolz

anywayzy onone of this is news and u really should get with the program here if you wanna hang with us.

because sometimes there’s a carriage, and you’re not driving.

i gbfm am driving lzozlzozoz

lzozozolzoz

HARVARD UNIVERSITY JUST INTRODUCED A NEW COURSE!!

Upper-Level Feminist Business 401: During the semester we will learn how to optimize Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks, as we are buttcoked by “alphas” and then go forth into the corporate-state to buttcock betas out of their assettsts (buttcocking their asstettss so to speak lzozlzoz) buttcoki dem outta der assettts in divorce curt, entitle progapms, corproate sexual harrassment suits, and guilting betas and gelding them with the “pay gap” myth. We will transfer teh assetts to the central banks and bernankifiers for teh centyral banks can only create debt-based fiat dollarz which are worth less than nothing, and thus need d awomenz movement to go forth and buttcock and guilt betas into working working working for a hope to lick our std-addled, strecthed-out bungholes lzozlzololzozo. We will examine why betas do not like this setup, and how we can shame them into marriage and slaving away in corproate jobs while we cock hold the alphas and cukhold da betas zlzololzlzlozozololzlzolz. homework will consist of getting buttcocked by a buttccker while mainitaing a roster of at least 20 beta oribters to reguallry buy one meals so that they will be well fed for the buttcocking later that evening. this will prepare tda womenz for bigger game, whnce they get betas to buy them homes and cars, and then dun future buttcockings with aplphas via alimony and child support lzzllzzlzozozozozo. sample exam questions will be, “what does tucker butthexter max wheym with? klzozolzolzolzo

In my experience they want it tremendously – rippling alpha muscles when they’re ovulating, which is when they show more skin and slap on some warpaint – and pricey trips and trinkets from someone with a nice, clean white collar job when they’re OTR or in snuggle mode.
I combine a bit of both. Complete alpha dickery leads to too much drama and horny histrionics; a nice gift or comfort leads to stability and free time, perhaps to add to the harem.

Your fetish comes from a place of weakness and intimidation by women’s sexual power.
I wouldn’t even call it a fetish because it’s usually not overwhelming to the point of BDSM and surrendering to a dominatrix.
Evo psych speaking, you have a competitive hindbrain and you want your sperm to compete with another guy’s sperm. Thus your increased horniness when you’re getting sloppy seconds.
But it remains a subconscious secondary force, there is a greater force inside you which is supposed to prevent you from raising another guy’s spawn.

Therefore I would call your “fetish” a fantasy. If you aspire to lead a normal life, work on your inner game by reading more of this site and others, and your outer game by hitting the gym (someone even hinted to penis enlargement if that’s an issue). It’s amazing what lifting weights can do to your energy and willingness to possess women like property, sexually speaking

If you do all this, and only if you do it, and you still have the need to degrade yourself, do it with flings. With women that you don’t hold in high esteem.
Doing it with a woman you love will come with useless drama, unpredictable consequences, and a potential disaster if you ever have kids.

If you do nothing about your inner or physical weaknesses and keep on complaining, no one is gonna take you seriously, and you will never find a woman who will love you to the point of madness. The stories about loving cuckoldresses are far-fetched. And they usually sound like evil bitches more than anything “loving”.

Regarding the phenomenon of attractive husbands with less attractive wives, what’s going on there? I’ve even seen handsome men with quite plain women. Is that to be explained completely by the husband’s being a beta fuck.

if you’re right, it’ll be a bummer for 2 of my boys, who are strapping 6 ft plus head-turners. so i hope there are enough women out there like myself who love looking at handsome faces and physiques and have respect for their vows.

I also suspect much of the supposed conundrum of “beautiful woman / less so man” stems from this necessity as mother of invention dynamic. Good looking guys never really needed to bother with game; but now that everyone around them is upping theirs, leaning on looks alone is no longer enough.

It would be more interesting to see a study comparing men with equal levels of game; although I have absolutely no idea how one would be able to ascertain that.

The idea that good looking men are unusually masculine, also strikes me as. at best, tentative. The few “studies” I remember seeing, found high estrogen to be a better predictor of mens looks than testosterone. Since both E & T are expensive to produce, and are made from largely the same precursors; my guess is most model type guys score high in both. Chiseled jaws, big sultry lips, ripping glutes, pecs, bis and delts, and with low feminine hairlines; that’s what makes a coverboy.

Now, in an actual social setting, coverboy’s subjective looks may take a bit of a hit when he’s cowering in a corner as Brutus Masculinus is cracking skulls on the floor; but strictly as eye candy, it’s rarely the lipless, bald granitemen who gets the most attention.

Insecure men obsess about looks mainly because they think that looking better will attract women. They will start focusing on their appearance, and as they start looking better, their inner confidence skyrockets because they’re achieving what they think women want. As their confidence skyrockets their success with women increases.

There must be some sort of self-selection skewness here, as all of us commenters are way, way above the mean, median, and mode for looks, brains, and game. Except of course for GBFM, who is way past all of us on the bell curve.

Anonymous internet forums guarantee a certain degree of vicarious posturing and exaggeration. Look at any thread on the internet regrading IQ. They are all filled with alleged geniuses claiming to have an IQ in the upper 5% despite the statistical improbability of such a high number of random posters falling on that part of the bell-curve.

I wouldn’t call good looks a misfortune for a man. Even if some demanding woman feels like he is too risky to try and pin down in a relationship, she is still going to be attracted to him.
If I feel like a man is too good looking for me, I just call him a “pretty boy”. That usually humbles him a little.

Not really. I’ve never felt that way, because looks only does so much for a man. I’m not tongue tied in the presence of really good looking men, the way men are in the presence of really good looking women. If I think they are too cocky, and I know him well enough, I might even tease him about being a pretty boy. The insinuation being that he tries to rely too much on his appearance. Oddly enough, I almost see a good looking man as a little vulnerable, because he has been blessed with these looks and yet it doesn’t help him much because he’s a man.

I was a very good looking young man, but also very shy. If it had not been for the former, I would not have attracted the women I did and got married to the girl I wanted. Looks can make all the difference for an introverted man.

I think too that good looks give a man power, and help push him towards alpha, because he sees the ridiculous way women will behave to please a man they find attractive.

A good way to test the alphaness of a good looking guy is to compliment him about his prettiness (or tease him about it, as you do). If his face turns red or something like this, he didn´t pass. I always fail in this test. Damn…

This might be partially a cultural thing. I once dated a German woman who frequently pointed out that American women are far more likely to date ugly rich men than would a German woman in Germany. And real German women never date Turks. A Heidi Klum is a real outlier. They also do not have all of the same age and racial discrimination laws as they do here. In German / European / Russian companies it is not uncommon for the person sitting at the front desk to be a 10. Here you get an overweight affirmative action hire single mommy with a bad attitude. They don’t try and hide their good looking people and they don’t accommodate their whales.

Also, be careful about mixing up men’s looks with their age. They are not the same. A man can be 70 and still have the same caliber of children as he did when he was 25. A man’s fitness does not matter as much as you would think because an alpha is not expected to exert himself changing diapers, cooking or cleaning. That is what women are for, or if they have the money, the nanny. Alpha men should make lots of money and play golf with their buddies. Marrying a younger women / older man is the perfect solution to overcome this phenomenon. Good looking women are vain and they dote their attention on their children not their men. Your looks are always secondary. You give a woman a good looking child and her ego will become totally wrapped up in it / them thereby giving you more time to make money and golf.

Lastly, money and power do matter. Look at Donald Trump. He sucks the oxygen out of the room. He is the type of guy who has a 10 attached to his arm wherever he goes but nobody is looking at her. She can be replaced, he can’t.

While yes, I feel that is incredibly true that a woman might feel slightly stripped of her beauty if a more attractive man is with her, but lets be realistic, men aren’t shooting for attractive men, so if they see a more attractive man with a an attractive woman, they will still instinctively want to fuck that attractive woman. What I mean is, whatever the man looks like is nullified because an attractive man isn’t attractive to other men and therefore as long as she stays youthful she’ll always still have value and therefore options which in turn means that an attractive man is really just an ego boost for her and someone her friends can fawn at.

But yes, the component and dynamic of her knowing that based on looks alone he can leave her, that is true, but so is being a cocky fucker and charming. So, I believe this is more or less a study that’s being looked into far too little.

I think we’re only positively correlating attractive men as “never settling down” because they learned game younger due to having been treated well based on their good looks, and thus it turns into a matter of them pumping and dumping the hottest of women while the uglier man with mediocre game is settling with the hottest of women because his options feel slimmer.

Its like finding out someone is extremely wealthy. You’d think that would be a great thing to discover, but its actually disconcerting. Any major discrepancy in status takes a bit of adjustment. It makes you think, what am I bringing to the table? That’s especially true in the realm of looks, since that is supposed to be women’s domain.

To see good-looking guys hooking up with uggos just watch the 2am “any port in a storm” rush at a nightclub lol good-lookin dudes hitting on disgusting shit, it’s hilarious and depressing.

The Misc and Relationship forums at bodybuilding.com are a good read. Those guys are all retardedly good looking, but you get a good look into how many average-guy girl problems they run into and how they find the same shit out that PUAs already know (good-looking guy standing around doesn’t get attention if a guy with game is there, good-looking guys get some freebies but most of them fuck it up, good-looking guys expect their looks to do all the work and don’t learn game, good-looking guys bang ugly-to-average chicks cause they’re just as insecure and scared to approach the turbo hotties as the average guy is, etc)

I’ve found that often girls will land an attractive guy and then actively try to uglify him lol it seems to be subconscious on their part but they’ll get him eating fatty unhealthy meals (cooking or at restaurants), let him go lax on his grooming (“I like you scruffy!”), guilt-trip him for going to the gym instead of hanging out and watching TV with her, tell him they like when he’s dressed casual (aka slobby) etc. It also let’s them slack off and let themselves go cause once their guy is worse off than them “I don’t have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than YOU.”

I’d say the above girls tend to be low self esteem tho, which doesn’t really correlate to how a girl looks (thus the horror that is the fatkini, or the reverse a smokin hottie who hates herself).

Also I’m currently in a super metro-sexual city. In most of the nightclubs here the guys are all P90x’ed up, tanned, groomed and tweezed, $60 haircuts every 2 weeks, stylin expensive clothes and accessories, etc. on any given night in a nightclub probably 80% of the guys are a 9 or 10 out of 10 looks-wise (no homo lol).

I make friends with them all the time and see the same shit over and over:

– they go home alone and confused that girls didn’t want them

– they go home alone and brag that none of the girls were good enough for their standards (which is usually bullshit lol)

– they go home with super ugly girls once their buddies have all left and no one is there to judge them and then they say she was “okay looking, nothing amazing”

– they go home with ugly to average girls who are super aggressive and make all the moves and they just go along with it because they don’t have a clue how to actually approach girls

– they go home with average girls in their social circle

– girls approach them but they fuck it up either really fast by being idiots at the start or real slow by not escalating when the window is there and they lose the girl

– they’re super happy to get a hot girl’s phone number and are surprised when it flakes

– they get super hammered trying to chug liquid courage and bomb from there because the really hot chicks tend to be pretty sober and are disappointed at how drunk the guy had to get to talk to her

That’s most of them. Now there ARE super smokin hot girls on hot guys’ arms at the clubs. Here’s generally why that happens:

– they’re in the same social circle so it’s pure fluke but the guy stumbled ass-backwards into having a leg up on the competition

– the guy is rich as shit and got bottle service and pretty much bribed the girls to hang out with him. You can spot these ones because usually 1) the guy is making a big deal of him buying them drinks (waving around money, pulling out wads of $50s, being loud and obnoxious “what’ll you have ladies?”, he’ll often buy the guys in the group or any friendly guys drinks too, to try to be the alpha dawg), and 2) the girls sit with him at his booth at the start but after a while and enough drinks their eyes start wandering and by 2am the girls are strutting around looking to get picked up while the guy is alone and holding his dick in his booth lol, but he still has his awesome ace up the sleeve aka The After-Party at his “mansion” (no one has an actual mansion here, they’re just huge brand new super nice expensive houses full of expensive stuff) which can rally a few girls up and he has one last shot at nailing one.

– she’s his actual girlfriend and they are super-tight and she has no interest in any other guys. Usually in this situ if you ignore the guy’s looks and observe his behavior you’ll find he’s got a lot of alpha game traits (social proof, loud voice, leader of men, etc)

– they’re swingers (lol, seriously. This is more in the 30+ crowd tho)

– she didn’t get approached by a guy with game so she’s settling for the super hot guy who’s usually a tool and qualifying himself and being a dancing monkey trying to keep her interest while she blabs on the phone to her GFs or makes him buy her 2am food etc. she’ll sometimes bang him once they get home but often she’ll feign being too tired, too drunk, having drama, etc and sleep alone because sleeping alone is better to her than putting up all night/morning with a retarded dancing monkey who will probably get all clingy.

– the girl makes all the moves on the guy all the way to the bedroom cause she’s decided she likes his look and he’s not a complete social retard even without any game. This is the most common “actually going to have sex later” coupling you’ll see, next to the BF/GF couple (the guy with bottle service is what you’ll see the most but like I said those ones often aren’t actually going to fuck)

– the girls are coke heads or semi-whorish and basically sell themselves for coke or money. Those girls you CAN take away in isolation, but they won’t burn the bridge with that guy in public because they need their relationship with him. Often those guys will even be nice cool dudes, but they fell into the cycle of needing to bribe girls to hang with them…and it works for them, so wtf do they care lol. Long as they can still provide drugs/money they’re in heaven and usually don’t care that the girl wouldn’t be with them if it weren’t for that stuff.

– the guy is her pimp lol but even then pimps tend to be ugly (but super alpha)

– the guy is important, either he’s a bar manager/owner, head bouncer, etc. basically a guy who, in that scene, has a lot of pull. Often those guys aren’t even interested in the girls (they know the girls are using them) and some of the girls will put out but a lot just flirt to get free drinks, skip lines, network with important people, etc.

On a side note, if you watch for it you’ll notice that the super smokin turbo hot girls often don’t drink very much if at all. They work hard to build their reputations in the nightlife scene so they don’t want to flush it down the toilet by getting shitfaced and falling all over the dance floor or going home with a lame guy at 2am. Often the smokin turbo hot girls will leave by 1am and have only had a few drinks thru the night.

Remember that when you’re at the bar thinking “I’ll just down one more shot, THEN I’ll approach…”. Your reeking of alcohol and slurring your words automatically puts you below her status-wise.

Fuck it, here’s some more info just ’cause I heart you all and like to hear myself talk.

I’m like 5’9″, chubby, hairy, have no car, no place of my own, and I’m poor as fuck. So I’ve had to compete against these “10/10 guys” for years and have had to learn to hold my own. That said, here’s how to take girls from each of the “hot girl and hot guy” scenarios I listed above from top to bottom:

1) “stumbled into the same social circle”

Befriend him first, get him to qualify himself to you and/or think you’re cool, then switch to the girl. Usually this guy isn’t high self-esteem and he’ll just fade off into the background…he knew he didn’t really deserve that chick, he just stumbled into it so he backs off because he’s like “hey haha it’s cool, I knew that was impossible from the start!” He won’t really get angry or anything because he wished he had dibs but he knew he didn’t really. If she’s really into him for some reason (ie – they’ve both been in the social circle for a while so she’s already heavily into him (VS having just met that night)), it’s a no-go.

2) “bottles & models douche”

These guys are my favorite. Understand that the entire reason they’re doing what they do (making it rain and shit) is because they’re insecure and overcompensating, and they’re stuck in the paradigm that money attracts women. They’re basically the Nice Guy if you gave him unlimited money and fed his brain a bunch of episodes of Jersey Shore social conditioning. So you just use that against him:

Start up a conversation with him directly. Complimenting the quality of his girls is a good one, “wow bro nice work. How’d you get so many hot girls around you? I came here with GUYS lol fuck MY life hey” ’cause it feeds his ego so he’s receptive. Often he’ll end up introducing his girls to you just to show off what a pimp he is, which is his mistake. 🙂 Another way is to catch him when he’s solo (which’ll be rare) and run short-set (make a comment and wander off) and do that a few times till you guys are cheersing eachother…that’s slower and relies more on opportunity though.

Another way is to start chatting with one of the chicks in his group. He’ll inevitably come over to “What’s up bro!” you and claim his territory so you don’t thieve one of his girls away. He’ll probably throw his arm around the girl and act like they’re together, but watch her body language for whether to believe that or not. Pro-tip: 99.9% of the time with these guys they’re not together…a GF isn’t gonna let him bring out a bunch of slutty chicks and buy them drinks all night lol

BUT, understand that for her she’s struck oil with him. It’s just raining money on her as long as he likes her, so she won’t really do anything to show that she’s NOT his GF. She’ll just play along quietly and hope you figure it out. Most of the time she barely likes the guy or likes him as a friend but thinks he’s try-hard, but if I had a fat chick who’d bring me out and buy me drinks and drive me around in limos and fly my buddies and I to Paris for the weekend for free, I wouldn’t burn that bridge down either. 🙂

So the trick here is two-fold:

1st – Just be cooler than him. Don’t try as hard, don’t flash money around, don’t try to compete with that external shit, you won’t win. Chat him up, ignore the girl, get him qualifying himself to you, get him liking you, etc. The girls know that whoever’s reacting more is the beta in an interaction so you just want him to try to impress you a bunch in front of her, while you verbally SAY you’re impressed, but your body language just doesn’t really give a shit. This snowballs because the more the guy thinks he’s impressing you, the more he’ll keep doing it, and he THINKS that means the girl will be more attracted to him but she actually gains attraction for you because if this guy with the wad of $50s is trying to impress you, then who the fuck are YOU??

Also you can usually get free drinks out of these guys lol They love to throw money around so if you’re chill and cool with him and unimpressed by his external shit, he ends up getting insecure and panicking and tries to assert his alphaness by going “Lemme buy you a shot bro!” or “What’re you drinkin bro?” or he’ll include you when he rallies the group up for shots next round, etc. Take the drink, fuck ya, that’s a win right there when you’re poor lol Again this is a move he thinks makes you look like his bitch, but as long as you hold the frame of “cool, thanks man.” like you just EXPECT people to buy you drinks because you’re that important and cool, you actually come out on top.

If you have a girl off to the side a bit you can even drop a “Your boyfriend is very generous.” which’ll get the “ohhh he’s not my boyfriend, no no” response and now you have the green light and nothing he says or does to try to keep you away from that girl should even register in your mind because he’s completely insignificant to you now. His own AMOG’ing move just tanked his shot with that girl. 🙂

2nd – Look for a chance to isolate the girl. She doesn’t want to shit on this guy because he gives her all this cool shit, so she won’t snub him in person and she won’t blatantly make out with you or go home with you around him. A good method is to drop in early in the night like I described above, then bail to chill with your friends or talk to other sets, and just keep an eye on the set. Like I described before, at the start of the night these girls will hang off his arm and chill in his bottle area because hey, free drinks and shit. But as the night goes on their eyes will start to wander, then their body language will start to wander, then they’ll girl-code with eachother about wanting to get away from there and go get hit on, then they’ll start leaving his area. THAT’S the time you want to re-approach.

Ideally you want to either get her number covertly, or if you’re good with logistics, figure out a way to get her the fuck out of the place with you, without anyone seeing or worrying about her. Logistics-wise it helps to figure out which people in that group know her well so you know if half the group would look for her worried, or if she’d just have to shoot a txt to a girlfriend who also picked up, or if she could just wander off and no one would notice. Once you have her alone, it’s all good. Even a crowded dance floor could be good for escalating to makeouts and shit.

The problem with this is even if you play that all dead on, if the girl is still in the club at last call, you have to be prepared for the “Afterparty at my mansion!!” move. It’s like in a videogame where the boss throws his one last super-move before he dies lol The draw to hang out at “a mansion party” is pretty strong for a lot of girls, so you can lose her right here. Fortunately those parties are always super gay (how many times have you been to a house party expecting it to be like American Pie and ending up super disappointed when it’s not like that at ALL? It’s usually just Bottle Guy and some of his douche friends who think they’re all going to get laid but they invite too many girls and fuck themselves over with the girls all getting ASD lol), so if you have her # be sure to txt her like 3am-ish because odds are she’ll be bored with the party and not be wanting to crash on a couch or with any of the guys there, and she can be receptive to meeting up with you for food or just cabbing right to your place just to escape the lameness of that party.

Now if you were a cool guy and made friends with the dude, and you make sure he’s set up with a girl so he’s not chasing the girl you have a connection with, you’re in a good spot, ’cause he’ll invite you to the mansion party since you’re occupying one of the friends for him. TOTALLY accept this invite if you end up in this situation lol You usually end up with hilarious stories out of it. I’ve been given hot tub access and swank guest rooms and shit to hook up with my girl in just ’cause I went along with one of these guys.

This is a complicated scenario with a LOT of elements to juggle, but it’s really fun to do because you get to practice really subtle AMOG’ing and you get to see first-hand how money, looks, game, etc. actually affect attraction. Plus you often score free drinks lol

3) “actual girlfriend”

No-go. Main type of girls who don’t respond to game are girls who are 100% satisfied with their man. That’s why I say you can usually spot alpha behaviors to go along with his looks, because he’s not good-looking at a douche, he’s good-looking and a cool guy. There’s nothing for her to look for other guys to provide her. But these couples are usually just cool out-going people in general and will introduce you to their friends so that’s fun.

4) “swingers”

lol just be cool to both of them. They’ll buy you drinks and invite you over. This situation can lead to either a 3-some (careful, some guys/girls will want you to touch the dude’s peener eww, but some couples just want the chick to get boned by two guys at one no gay shit involved aside from seeing eachother naked and being in the same holes after eachother, again eww), or a cuckold situation where you bang the wife while the guy listens from another room, watches, or isn’t involved at all and just knows “it happened”.

This ain’t my thing, I don’t like being around other naked dudes even if we’re spit-roasting a really hot chick. Too weird to me. But I’ve had these opportunities enough times to know how they work lol The only one I would do is the cuckold scenario but even then you’re going home with two complete strangers and one’s a guy, so you could end up drugged, out-muscled, etc. and just end up in trouble. If you do this make sure you tell a buddy and have your GPS on and shit so they can find you if you end up in trouble. Most swingers will understand your wanting to be cautious as long as you approach it as just a “you understand, I’m sure :)” safety precaution.

5) “settling girl”

These are the EASIEST girls to take off guys lol Because they’re DYING to get taken off them. You’re the guy who’s rescuing her from a night of shitty lame akwardness. You need more game than the other guy has but usually he doesn’t have much and all his shit is hitting a blank wall with her because she’s just regretting the next few hours of her life in advance lol These girls are super receptive to being swept away, it’s hilarious.

The flip-side though, is that these are the guys who will get the most angry about it. In their mind they “totally almost had her” and you’re the asshole that fucked it up. These guys will VERY blatantly try to AMOG/tool you in front of the girl because they KNOW they’re hanging onto her by just a thread and they NEED you to go away because they know if they can just keep every other guy away and stick it out they might have a chance at getting laid.

Some of these guys will get aggressive and in-your-face, but honestly that’s rare. Most of them will just try to tool you verbally, make fun of your hair, clothes, the fact that you don’t have girls with you, your accent if you have one, etc. etc. Some will try to befriend you but in that “I’m just doing this to make you go away” way.

The catch is that none of that will work because the girl is already not really interested in him. Now this results in two scenarios:

Scenario 1 – You get sucked into his frame and start answering his questions or trying to one-up his “witty” comebacks or trying to engage him in any way at all like he’s significant or relevant to you. This brings you down to his level (whoever reacts to the other guy more, remember…engaging him is reacting) and the girl loses attraction for BOTH of you. You’ll end up going back and forth with him in a briliantly witty “yo momma!” session and then both of you look around and realize the girl left because she was like “fuck this” and wanted no part of whoever “won” that exchange lol

Needless to say, you don’t want to fall into Scenario 1. 😛

Scenario 2 – You ignore the guy COMPLETELY. He doesn’t exist. Any insults he makes, or questions he asks, or comments he makes on your attempts to hit on his girl, you don’t hear any of that, it doesn’t register at all on your radar. You focus 100% on the girl, lock eye contact, and speak DIRECTLY to her, as if it was just you two one-on-one. This is a good time to actually tone things down…while the AMOG guy is going “HEY BRO! WHERE YOU FROM BRO??” trying to drown out what you’re saying, you’re locked eye to eye with your girl and casually nice and chill saying “You guys were at BlahBar tonight hey. Looks like it was super-fun (sarcasm)…” and girl-code her that the guy is a loser, etc. etc. like you understand her situation, and then just invite her to come with you from there. She doesn’t give a shit about the guy she was just settling for so she’ll drop him cold lol

Once you HAVE his girl (or girls, often these guys will come in a group of two girls and one dude trying to get with one of the girls), he goes apeshit lol BUT, there’s nothing he can do to get the girl at this point. You want to just get her the fuck out of there ASAP so you get away from him. He can threaten you, yell at you, call the girls sluts, etc. etc. and it just won’t affect what you’re doing at all because the girls have chosen you over him. It’s REALLY frustrating for him because he can’t stop the rolling boulder that just plowed through his chances.

Don’t do this one if you don’t like confrontation. If you don’t handle it solid, it can lead to a fist-fight or getting jumped by a gang of the guy’s buddies outside, especially with alcohol involved.

6) “she makes all the moves”

No-go. She’s decided it’s him tonight. Don’t even bother getting involved ’cause you’ll fuck him up by distracting him from a done deal, and she’ll hate you because it’s like she’s coaxing a kid across the street and inch at a time frustratingly, and then you pop in with balloons and candy going “HEY LOOKIT ME KID WOOO!!!!” and the kid veers off to the side lol

7) “coke heads”

This is similar to the bottle guy but in general I don’t get involved with these girls. Ya, they’re hot, but they come with so much baggage and crazy in general that it’s not worth the effort. Plus these girls seem “dirtier” to me and more like I’d catch something since they’re possibly fucking drug dealers who it’s safe to assume are fucking pretty much any coke-head that wants to suck their dick for coke. Just eww.

Taking the girls off him is hard as hell too because he’s not offering them “making you laugh”. He’s offering them “the drugs that make you able to survive your shitty life full of self-loathing and low self-esteem hate, that you will go into painful withdrawl if you don’t get tonight”, so it’s like, you’re not gonna’ one-up that lol At best you’ll end up with a coke-head chick who’s ACTUALLY coked up when you’re taking her home…that’s a shitty situation, I know from experience lol

8) “he’s her pimp”

lol get out your wallet. There’s other ways and there are guys who get strippers to give them free head during a dance or prostitues to bang them for free etc. (I know some of these guys) but just like, go find girls that don’t come with all that crazy shit. You’re an attractive guy, there are better girls and paying for sex doesn’t impress anyone lol

9) “important guy”

This is similar to the Bottle Douche guy, except that these guys are SUPER cool and friendly. Managers, promoters, etc. they know the score and they want everyone to enjoy their club. Make friends with these guys and they’ll ntroduce you to their girls, they don’t care about bragging in front of you or calling dibs on every girl that talks to them, they want everyone to get laid ’cause that means more repeat customers coming in and blowing $ in their club. These guys are awesome and you should approach them with no ulterior motive in mind, ’cause they’re surrounded by super fake douches (guys and girls) all the time (who they DO buy drinks and stuff for, but just don’t give a shit about) so they really appreciate an authentic person who’s not trying to impress them or get anything out of them.

These guys usually aren’t interested in fucking the girls that run up to them to hug them and say hi, and these guys are usually busy having to run around doing “the rounds” so they don’t stay in one spot long, which means if you’re around one when some girls who know him approach him and he introduces you to them then walks off to “check on shit” or “say hi to someone”…how awesome a position are you in NOW? 🙂 Exactly. NEVER AMOG OR TOOL THESE GUYS, they are your friends…that’s their JOB lol

__________

That all said, I don’t really do a lot of this these days. Pretty much every PUA, when they discover AMOG’ing tactics and BF Destroyers, goes through a phase where they’ve basically been given superpowers and they go “fuck YA!! Revenge time assholes!!!” and use their powers for evil lol I did this for a few years and ultimately it was a pretty negative headspace. It WORKED, but that doesn’t make it a cool way to interact with people.

Now I just keep the skills in reserve for very specific situations, like if a guy is a total douche to me completely unprovoked I’ll do it to teach him a lesson, or if I’m so madly into a girl that I NEED this specific one and have to take her from a guy…but that doesn’t happen very often because I have abundance, I know I can get other girls, and I feel compassion for the other dudes ’cause I know for a lot of them getting that girl is like winning the lottery and I don’t need to be the guy who snatches their lottery ticket out of their hand and rips it in half.

But ya, all this shit I’m writing is based on experience. Don’t tell me it’s faulty or doesn’t work or give me that stupid “no way, my MMA buddy would fucking uppercut you TO THE MOON if you even DARED to try that shit with HIS girls” bullshit if you’re not out in nightclubs taking girls off these guys regularly. 😛

“Also you can usually get free drinks out of these guys lol They love to throw money around so if you’re chill and cool with him and unimpressed by his external shit, he ends up getting insecure and panicking and tries to assert his alphaness by going “Lemme buy you a shot bro!” or “What’re you drinkin bro?” or he’ll include you when he rallies the group up for shots next round, etc. Take the drink, fuck ya, that’s a win right there”

Eh. Insecure POO-AH bullshit.

If a guy is being friendly and buying drinks, so what? A guy with bottle service draws lots of girls. Be chill, be friendly, join the party. He’ll get his share, you’ll get yours.

There are two types of guys buying drinks: the ones being legit and cool and friendly, and the ones doing it for validation and to big-up themselves and seek everyone’s approval. Just like ANYTHING you do in pickup, whether it’s buying the girl a drink or escalating on her. It can either come from an approval-seeking frame or not.

The bottle douche who tries to tool you in front of his girls is coming from the validation frame. The nice guy who’s just being a friendly dude isn’t.

The way to tell the difference is through developing social calibration and learning to read the really subtle sub-communications going on under the surface of the interaction.

…or, you know, laugh it off as poo-ah BS and lump everything together and just stumble around in the dark till you “get lucky”. That gets you laid too. But it doesn’t mean those sub-communications aren’t still going on, whether you acknowledge them or not.

At 25:30 he starts telling a story where he uses some of the stuff I’m describing. The girl he goes for is with the club manager and he does the chatting-with-him thing and the guy buys him a drink etc then he takes the girl.

It’s funny to me that Tyler keeps mentioning “fuck I’m such a dick that was such a mean thing to do :D” because that’s how I feel now. Like I say I can DO this stuff, it works great, but if the guy is a nice normal dude it’s like Kramer joining the children’s karate class in Seinfeld. It’s such overkill that I actually feel bad doing it even tho it works.

…unless like I say, the guy is being a dickhead for no reason or I reeeeeally want the girl. Then fuck it. 🙂 But again, both of those cases are pretty rare.

(this stuff doesn’t get talked about much these days because there’s too many uncalibrated retard “don’t think for themselves” newbies in the game now so if you give them info like this they go out and get their asses kicked because they don’t even have the basics down and don’t properly train to HAVE them down before they attempt stuff like this that sounds like “ooo now I can get revenge on all those jocks who took girls from me all my life!!!!”. PUAs don’t have that “dark triad” bullshit distinction the manosphere made up to avoid the social pressure of judgement for using game and to keep clinging to the Nice Guy label, to us it’s a given that you can use the knowledge for good or evil but that good and evil as concepts are gray areas to begin with. Part of why I like Heartiste is that the articles here don’t sugarcoat this shit trying to appeal to the masses the way a lot of new “we don’t teach men how to get pussy, no that would be evil, we just teach men how to improve their lives” gurus do these days. Nothing against those guys, general life improvement rules and business is business, but it’s refreshing to read articles that cut through all the bullshit “don’t label me a bad guy please????” sugar-coating a lot of the manosphere and new generation of pickup blogs has)

Comes down to game. A guy with game getting bottle service isn’t the same as an insecure guy trapped in the “Matrix” getting bottle service.

Again it’s like buying a girl a drink. A newbie doing it is coming from a needy insecure place whereas a cool alpha guy with game doing it is coming from a value-giving place. If you want to be really socially adept, you have to learn to spot the difference between the two at a glance…which just comes down to reading body language, voice tone, how people are reacting to them, even shit-testing them (lol) etc.

…the exact same way a girl does all that to look for the exact same thing in a guy. See how it all comes full-circle there lol

Seriously tho, if a guy turns out to be cool and legit friendly and social and his girls are there because he’s a fun guy and not because he’s buying everyone’s attention, he becomes number 9 in that list, like a club manager or promoter, you just be friendly to him and like Balls Walls said, “be chill, friendly, and join the party.”

@YaReally said:I’ve found that often girls will land an attractive guy and then actively try to uglify him

That’s the story of me and wife #1.

She was smokin’ hot, a solid 9 if not 9.5, and super vain about her looks. I was probably a 9. I always wore my hair swept back and gelled, and wore contact lenses. After seeing how girls everywhere would check me out in public, she insisted that she loved me wearing glasses, especially thick framed ones, which she choose for me. Later she said she hated the way I wore my hair, and would much prefer if I grew it longer, down over my forehead a little. Then a year or so later she wanted me to grow a full beard, I held off doing that for a few years then tried it for a while before going back to clean shaven.

After I left her and we were divorcing, she tells me that she always felt, “I was too good looking”, and had encouraged me to change my style, so I would look “older and less attractive”.

I’ve never liked good looking men. Male beauty is like a tiara on a dog; totally unnecessary. Plus there is something so unattractively fey and feminine about a man who primps and owns a cabinet full of beauty products. The only women I know who like the “pretty boys” are Sex in the City cougar sluts and teenage Twilight fans.

When I met my husband there were several men pursuing me who were objectively much better-looking than him. But his personality was charming and they would defer to him in social interactions. Also, they all played football in a league together and he was the best athlete, so they looked up to him and talked with awe about his skills. It made him more attractive and made them look like silly boys in comparison.

This blog often discusses pre-selection by women as an attractive trait, but social pre-selection by men (especially better-looking men) boosts a man’s attractiveness as well.

LOL, take my word for it…or don’t. My point was that looks don’t matter that much in men, not to assure internet strangers of my raging beauty.

And since you’ve never been a young, fit woman in her early 20s before (I’m old now, so don’t get too excited) – let me tell you that you don’t need to look like a supermodel to have attractive men chasing you. It’s about as challenging as falling out of a chair.

When strawberries are in season, everyone wants to buy them because they’re ripe and delicious. Only when the season ends, and the goods become questionable, does anyone stop to scrutinize each container, looking for mold, wrinkles or rot.

Interesting, I remember watching a YouTube video of a hot swedish woman telling men that if they didn’t have a girlfriend and were single, it could be because they are too good looking. I thought it was rediculous but since then I have noticed there is no shortage of ugly people in the world, and that they have no problem finding girlfriends/wives. I notice that the only women who seem to give me IOI’s are highly attractive women who I usually think are out of my league. It seems strange that as a man if you are not so successful with women, part of the problem might be that your too good looking for the average frumps that are so common in America.

agree with this blog except i’d like to add two extra points (keep in mind this is for long-term relationships)

1. guys who think a girl is above them in the looks scale tend to give them a little more leeway than girls whom they think they can do better than. this is very helpful in a relationship when people make mistakes. this can also backfire when she abuses him and he becomes a cuckold.

2. super hot girls don’t usually have the qualities i look for in a long-term partner (this is a generalization there are exceptions). they get white knighted so much that they can rely on their looks alone and don’t develop anything else. getting through a conversation for a one night stand feels a lot like grinding sandpaper against my penis.

pretty white chick moved back into the neighborhood and all the ugly bitches talking about how much they hate her.
I’m like wtf she bringing a nice view back to the neighborhood instead of wilderbeast looking black beasts.

A quick note –
I’ve noticed the looks as a priority phenomenon is also something that happens within the Caribbean, poor black, and white trash communities. Seeing as you aren’t always able to immediately tell if a woman is of these when meeting her at a bar/club/party, it’s something to keep a look out for in tells. If you see indications she might be of one of these – up the game, lower the commitment standards.

Also, seeing as how these are groups prevalent of higher STD’s and lower demand for you to wrap it, I’d suggest doing it unprompted.

I honestly couldn’t tell you – I’ve simply noticed it being true. Only thing I can think of is being shallower due to living a life based on appearances instead of character and depth. They want to look better than they are – they dress sluttier and put a higher value on the physical.

I always found it interesting how important male beauty was to white lower class women. I grew up in a small midwestern town that wasn’t poor, but was by no means wealthy. And I look at some my pictures when I was younger and in good shape and it strikes me that I was not a bad looking guy at all. I was probably a 7/6.5. But I wasn’t a masculine shit kicker or a perfect looking pretty boy either, and strikes me how I always felt like there was something wrong with the way I looked.

I would imagine for most guys who grow up in areas that are either poor, or average in terms of wealth that being good looking is the best asset you can have.

That’s fair of it being a main status designation. With hypergamy though I would have thought they would have been looking for moving up into a different class. Thus looking for other status designations.

Though maybe they simply are ignorant or don’t consider that in their selection process.

Even though it’s a minority of women who fuck men solely based on looks, in my experience, that minority is the type that tends to flock to clubs and bars and is thus sometimes a majority in nighttime venues.

“He soon realizes the creatures are part of a clandestine campaign unleashed by a rival advertising agency to make “fat the new fabulous” and create a new era of uncontrolled consumer appetite. In order to save mankind, Misha uses his own considerable marketing skills to launch an ingenious plan to try to eradicate the plague. But the corporate legions will not go down without a fight.”

this…pretty is for low teens GIRLS….for grown women over age 17, physically intimidating, symmetrical/masculine is all there is with regards to looks, you’ll see masculine/muscular/large guys with a really pretty feature(s) like eyes, bone structure, lips etc that really kill it with the ladies….but the masculinity must come first….that pretty much IS what good looking is.

You know what’s awesome about being muscular? Even short guys can be muscular, just by regularly lifting free weights in a gym and paying attention to their diet.

If you look like an athlete (especially like a swimmer), women *will* do a double take on you, no matter how short you are or how plain your face is. Just because of how rare that body type actually is among the general population.

My ex gf, even when we were going out had some compulsive need to be “friends” with a bunch of losers. At first I was pissed…but as time wore on, any loser who showed her a bit of attention, she would cultivate into a “friend” ie beta orbiter.

Most of these guys had some romantic designs on her. She would always explain that somehow they were a “Friend”….I never quite got it…but this concept of needing a “beta orbiter” which I clearly was not…was important….

According to the study, it was married couples, together for 3 years and in the early to mid-20’s that were rated. So are they proles? Religious? Traditionalists? Hicks? I presume the couples were from Tennessee but am too lazy to verify.

Don’t professional women on the coasts with degrees get married in their late 20’s early 30’s? Would the high achievers be happier with an uglier man?
Would the same 1/3:1/3:1/3 apply?

A very attractive boyfriend caters to a vain girl’s attention-whoring needs; he’s like a giant diamond ring signaling status: “look, he could have anyone, but he chose ME.” I remember some pretty girl once writing about how she was done dating ugly guys, and she wanted to walk down the street feeling proud. A critical difference between an attractive boyfriend and a diamond is that the ring also signals commitment, whereas people often assume that a handsome guy isn’t going settle down anytime soon. She’s only the flavor of the week.

I’m guessing this is part of the reason why women prefer taller men: she’s concerned about how they look *as a couple*. While there are five foot tall girls who have six-foot-two height requirements, most will say you only have to be taller than her in heels. That’s because the man’s “supposed to be” taller.

Could be because the majority of chicks have massive inferiority complexes (especially if they have mangled twats). You don’t see Joe blows getting their knickers in a knot when John Jones gets on the cover of a sports magazine but chicks get in a dizzy and hyper ventilate when they see a super model on a magazine cover.

“A minority of women — I’d estimate 10-15% of the fertile female population — place excess emphasis on men’s looks, almost on a par with the emphasis that men place on women’s looks. These women tend to be more masculinized than the typical woman. They aren’t necessarily unattractive, but they are less feminine than their curvier sisters. They usually have small tits and narrow hips, although their asses can retain their juiciness.”

Agreed.

Always hard to quantify; ~15% or less seems right. These women will typically be open to sexual frames very early in comfort building stages. They’ll discuss dick size, sex stories and go through a qualitative rant of their hypergamous admissions and sexual triumphs…just like a man would. Take note, this is the seduction artists’ opening to escalate quickly into heavy sexual frames and invoke arousal state.

These women are *not* LTR material and usually exhibit demanding, masculine personality types. Still however I find they’ll submit to a more dominant man for sex, most of the time. If they have a stubborn willingness to always be the frame dominator and your objective is sex it may serve to sparingly yield to her cuntery; in a reverse manipulation type of strategy.

I tell ya though, I love a hot ass, but any one of man hands, man feet, narrow hips, small tits, hairy arms and/or the inklings of a manjaw coupled with a masculine personality makes me want to shit in a bucket and dump it on her head.

[…] but women really find them pleasant to be around with them and in between their legs and no they don’t need to be good looking for this to work.Again that is because these guys have good social skills, because their job is […]

I’ll agree with you that the women who go for *ONLY* hot guys are quite masculinized – I’ve experienced this myself, firsthand. It was these girls who actually got me out into the dating market as I was shy early on.

But I disagree with the entire thesis of this post. I chronically date women below my level in looks. These girls are cute, but I have pristine looks. I end up staying with the 6s and 7s because they are constant ego validations. When every 5 minutes a girl is admiring some aspect about you, and they’re pretty cute, its pretty hard to look for more attractive, even though they’re around.

Cyrus, if you really are the equivalent of a male model in looks, then you should be getting attraction indicators from the equivalent of female models. You should have no reason to slum it.

The only reason you would slum it, on purpose, is if you’ve never had a hot girl. Because once you get that hot girl, you will forever know what you are missing, and you’ll start to see those 6s and 7s as just plain janes.

I don’t think you’re slumming it. more often than not you may just have a very narcissistic level of self esteem but that is a good thing and sure it will get tricky since you will be having difficulty seeing your true external look level as compared to a girl’s looks level

Very true… Women are very status conscious and having a good looking guy signals that clearly. But they are also aware it’s a double-edged sword so can cut them as well as their opponents. I used to tell guys the reason flashy cars work is because women like how they think they will look in it – it has nothing to do with the guy. Of course, that was never practical enough for me – I like comfort and flashy usually equals uncomfortable and I’m all about what makes my life easier and improves my comfort level – whether that be cars, or women.

From my perspective, that is the most important thing when it comes to women – that they turn me on, and that they provide something that benefits me directly. Everything else is noise… A *lot* of women actually enjoy that – they know that I don’t want them for their degree, or anything else other than how they look, and how they can “take care” of me. Of course you have to keep them competing with other women, if you want to keep them happy.

theres a higher bar for men, for a man to be sex/relationship worthy based pretty much on looks, hes going to have to be top 5-0.5 per cent in looks depending on the attractiveness and mentality of the observing lady….

it’s not that men don’t get sex based on looks, hes just going to have to be something special, whereas even ugly bitches will get sex from somewhere based on their looks.

Bruce over ashton anyday..i know so many women who’ll admit to having a little crush on bruce at least in the moonlighting/die hard/pulp fiction/twelve monkeys days, even some lesbians…

ashton probably wouldn’t really even come up in conversation as a “hot” guy….

Truth. I once briefly dated a male stripper (turns out that some of them aren’t gay after all) who was just drop-dead gorgeous. 10/10 on a male looks scale.

But being out with him in public was like cantering down the street on a unicorn’s back. Thrilling at first, but after a while I got sick of all the virgins beckoning him into their laps. Plus he was dumb as a box of hair. So I, a 7 on a good day, quit returning HIS calls. If you can imagine.

I was once matched online with a male stripper. I’d already weeded my way through the Eastern Seaboard and parts of Canada, so I guess that was all that was left. At the top of his profile he had written in all caps he didn’t want to date anyone with children. I was like, fine. Whatever possessed you to go out with him?

Here’s the scene: I got dragged along on this awful bachelorette party, girls shrieking in the whistle register and yelling “Woo!” and buying each other lapdances and all the rest. To combat the rage headache, I proceeded to drop about $50 trying to get enough watered-down Scotch into my bloodstream to make it bearable.

Then of course one of the girls insisted on buying me this lapdance, just to bust my chops. Imagine the excruciating pitch of their shrieks when the dancer got a (very visible) hard-on. Imagine hearing them giggle as they pushed one of my business cards into his g-string. Imagine the screeching at 3 a.m. when he called me and asked me out. At that point, I was drunk enough to accept instead of just saying, “Dude, you’re gorgeous, and you are out of my league, and now I have to go make myself throw up and take some Advil, ok? Have a nice night.”

I’m a huge fan of Rammstein myself. When I was breaking up with the Ukrainian chick, I told her I was leaving and why. She pleaded with me to stay, and I just said: “I’ve made my decision to leave… it can’t be changed”. Then she said, “You’re just like that guy in the Rammstein video – SO, SO, COLD HEARTED”.

She was referring to the look at 3:23-3:32 in this video, that she had previously said, “Gave her chills”

@That Guy: I like the Teletubbies version better because it is infinitely more disturbing.

@Redleg: Not really. Although I do bear the low-digit-ratio stigmata, it’s actually fairly subtle. You’d have to know what you were looking for. I present physically as feminine, even delicate.That is, until I open my mouth. Which is when you’d realize that I’m basically a teenage boy trapped in the body of a woman. You won’t want to date me, but the belching contests will be epic.

Some truth in this. I once had a co-worker tell me, suddenly out of the blue, that she didn’t want to marry a handsome man because “he was bound to have a roving eye.” She ultimately married a rich older ugly oaf. I’m fairly certain she wore out more than a few mattresses on the side within the first couple of years itself, including her CEOs.

But I have to say from a lot of personal observation that, from the evolutionary biology perspective, a handsome man + brainy successful wife is an absolutely successful formula for superior quality children. In contrast, the 10 star wife + rich older ugly husband seems to produce mediocre kids. The daughters never seem to be as beautiful as their moms and the sons never as smart as the dads.

As for more sons–>don’t richer people tend to have more sons and poorer people have more daughters? Since male fertility (in terms of actually siring successful offspring) has a higher variance, it makes sense for people in situations with limited resources to produce a daughter, who is likely to have at least one child, rather than a son, who may be left without any.

Not sure how this works at the molecular level–does the egg somehow get harder to penetrate by Y sperm? Who knows?

Again, sons get more of their genes from their mother than their father, because of the X chromosome. The Y has nothing on it except male programming. Daughters get an equal mix of both mother and father. Arguably, IQ is more noticeable in men than women, so if Rich and Ugly marries Hot Airhead, it will be obvious that their sons are dumbfucks, but not so much the daughters.

Which brings us to Marco Pelo’s remark:

The daughters never seem to be as beautiful as their moms and the sons never as smart as the dads.

The daughters’ beauty that they would have inherited from their mother is diluted by their father’s ugliness, and the sons don’t get as much of the benefit of their ugly dad’s higher IQ because they get more of that from their mom.

In the absence of sex-selective abortion, men with limper equipment or fertility problems are more likely to have daughters because Y sperm are more easily damaged in formation and tossed out and can’t survive as long a path to the egg as X sperm can.

FYI, there are studies to back up what you said. I believe it had to do with the mating choices of women with both unrestricted sociosexuality(“slut”), and restricted sociosexuality(“prude”). Muscularity, facial masculinity, and lack of fluctuating asymmetry were much more important factors in men for the women with a higher degree of unrestricted sociosexuality.

It wasn’t until after I learned game and displayed delusional overconfidence bordering on hubris that girls described me as “hot” (I’m average-looking). Women subconsciously perceive high status men as physically more attractive.

Man, this is so true and comes at a perfect time, as I’ve been experiencing this. My gf is a legit 8, very good looking, but on the male scale I’m at least a 9. In the past month I’ve had four seperate instances of girls blatantly flirting with me and hitting on me RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY GF (women are ruthless competitors). Now, I did not reciprocate their flirtations, but nonetheless, this drove the gf crazy and her insecurities are flying through the roof.

I point blank told her that I was sure she never experienced this before, as she was used to being the one getting hit on and flirted with, and she just has to deal. The fact that the shoe is finally on the other foot for her, and that the power in her looks is taken away, has been driving her crazy. It’s perfect ‘dread game’ without having to lift a finger.

I’m not worried much at all about that, plus I use comforting game with the gf, as you can’t be all alpha all the time. She already knows that I don’t tolerate any BS whatsoever, with one screw up on her part and she is out of my life for good. I’ve told her that yes, I want a good woman in my life (which I think she is), but I will never NEED a woman in my life, and I will never beg her to stick around or be with me if she doesn’t want to. As discussed here before, this attitude makes the tingle for her guy go haywire.

I think the alpha is strong in me, and a lot of thanks are due to the chateau.

“Old people smell is real. Interestingly, it doesn’t smell as bad as young people smell.”

Older women smell better than young girls? Oh, that’s something new.

[heartiste: maybe to women, but definitely not to men. young hotties estrogenating all over the place smell way better than old broads to men. the study i linked is interesting but flawed for this reason. it needs more refinement.]

What about men to women? It would be stupid if women to preferred very old men – they can die too soon.

[heartiste: stop trolling, you noisome carbuncle on the ass of happy people. you know damn well there are plenty of studies proving that men are more attracted to young women who are ovulating, so whatever this latest study is showing, it isn’t that men prefer the smell of old broads over HOT young babes. the participating smellers were split between men and women, so it is possible that there is a sex difference in how smells are perceived. or it could be that there is a definitional problem with what qualifies as “bad smelling” vs “sexually enticing”. or it could be that ugly young woman smell is worse than old woman smell, skewing the overall results. who knows? none of those possibilities were explored in the study conclusions. so turn off your sperg light and just muse on it a bit before cunting out.]

[heartiste: please start saying something interesting, instead of transparently trollish. you have a strong loathing of male desire, that is obvious, much like your compatriot feminists, and this prevents you from experiencing love and happiness in your life. why don’t you explore that facet of your id in the comments here? it would be braver and, dare we dream!, a lot more titillating for the studio audience than the tedious “i’m pretending not to get the point so i can smarmily sneak my feminist boilerplate into the discussion thread” troll act that you have honed to imperfection. who knows, the act of egoless self-reflection might even end your self-imposed celibacy drought. i can hear it now… “i should have thanked you long ago, CH! my life is so much better since i opened my heart and my legs to the loving superlativeness of rock solid cock. my fears and hatred of men were totally irrational!”]

[…] If you conceptualize being a good looking man as having a significant amount of preselection, this will take you far. Preselection is incredibly potent, and the same concept applies to looks. When girls see a good looking man, they, by default, assume he is already getting puss or can get puss easily. […]

Being good looking had its perks but it’s true, there’s always someone else better looking or a guys who’s been at it longer who is cool about it, dammit. The main benefit is that good looking girls will approach you but then you get spoiled by that. But you also realize quickly that girls have different things, so you may be a Depp look alike, but some girls may only like Pitt lookalikes, or muscle dudes, or emaciated ghey boys, so again, you can’t rely on looks. And they fade for guys too, but it’s more like a transformation into something different, not a wall, if you avoid herbing yourself.

[heartiste: i don’t want people to get the wrong idea about this study. all else equal, it is still better to be good-looking than ugly, if for no other reason that that it opens up more possibilities for one night stands.. but being good-looking is not as important as most men think. that’s a shift in perception from false projection to true reality that will work wonders for a man’s success with women.]

But you also realize quickly that girls have different things, so you may be a Depp look alike, but some girls may only like Pitt lookalikes, or muscle dudes, or emaciated ghey boys…

Not just girls “have different things” but all men too. Beauty itself is of an infinite nature. It is constantly giving and never exhausting. There is no declaration of superiority between all blue eyes and all dark doe eyes; wavy blonde and long lustering brunette; a petite shapely girl and a statuesque leggy one; between perky C-cups and cute B’s; between Odette Yustman and Amber Heard — except by preference, which changes with mood. They share the quality of highest beauty expressed through different and mutually exclusive characteristics.

Even if you possess a single instance of it — say, in your own physical attractiveness, or in your possession of a mate who is attractive — there are always more instances of different but equal pulchritude. You cannot have an exclusive claim on any instance, but this exclusivity is what we desire, which leads to absurdities like body-length burkas. When you hold a beautiful woman tightly or combine with her sexually you never truly possess her, she is always in proximity outside of you. That’s why true beauty is often described as “heartbreaking.” Our distance from it is a permanent tragedy.

“False psychological projection of their own sexual attraction mechanism onto women blinds them to this reality.”

Cannot be emphasized enough. Tons of guys get caught up on this and it can be a difficult mindset to break. I still find myself slipping into this way of thinking from time to time despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

This helped me understand why pretty girls – who are dating a guy who is also good looking – have a greater demand for gestures/affirmations of total commitment from him, in order to entertain/sustain an LTR.

They will constantly shit test him for congruency/fidelity in his frame, and be hyper-aware of any attention directed towards him in public.

Basically, he’s held to a higher standard of White-Knightedness. He has to constantly prove to her that he’s not a player, even if he has good heart and good intentions.

And still, she’s as likely to believe her own fears as the truth. She’s also more likely to magnify his imperfections/shortcomings – like not being wealthy enough – in her own mind and to him, in attempt to gain hand.

Personality dovetailing – like narcissism/codependency templates, or LSE on both sides – can be both the cause and the ultimate demise of these pairings.

It can make a guy pretty fucking jaded, to have one or more relationships where he’s trying to be the best he can for someone, do everything right and prove he’s devoted, but her insecurity triggers and need for a sense of control are more powerful. If she doesn’t believe in herself, she won’t believe he loves her.

“It can make a guy pretty fucking jaded, to have one or more relationships where he’s trying to be the best he can for someone, do everything right and prove he’s devoted, but her insecurity triggers and need for a sense of control are more powerful. If she doesn’t believe in herself, she won’t believe he loves her.”

No. To all of it. Be the best you can for someone? Prove you are devoted? Stop. Live your life, on your terms. Don’t live as a demonstration of fealty to a woman.

[heartiste: there’s no chick friendzone that occurs with nearly the same frequency or intensity that male friendzones occur. this is just feminists’ lame attempt at equalizing the sexes, which will fail because it has no basis in reality.]

I occasionally friend-zoned women I was not attracted to but didn’t mind spending time with. In a few cases the women were decent-looking, but they they would almost certainly take any sexual encounter straight to stalking and demands for relationships. (Heck, they did that in some cases without any sex.) Better to avoid all that. And god help you if a sexed-then-jilted woman gets really mad about the sex. Retroactive removal of consent is now considered rape, from what I can tell about campus life from the newspapers.

But yeah, it was women who friend-zone more often than guys. That is likely because when women are rejected as sex partners, they stop being friends with the guy rejecting them. That was my observation, anyway. Unlike orbiting males, women tend to move on and try their luck elsewhere. There are always the instances where some 5 is really besotted with a 9.5 male, and cannot let go of the dream. The result is her hopeless attempts to wait until he is “mature” enough for her love.

This is interesting, because I always thought the (admittedly very few) women who post on my blog were very manly. They still have the hamster going at full speed, but they are aggressive like men. I wonder what it would be like to meet a woman who reads the mansophere on a daily/weekly basis? One may assume they’d be a cool chick, but I’d bet they would be lacking in femininity for the most part.

Girls who read/post here come for the titillation but stay for the truth. Truth is a rare commodity and we philalethists will take it anywhere we can get it. I’d estimate for every girl who posts publicly, ten to twenty read quietly with racing hearts and blushing cheeks.

The women readers are manly insofar as they desire painful truth over comforting, pretty lies: A woman is naturally allergic to honesty and directness. But living life as a lie is a learned behavior, instituted and supported by the culture to prop up the feminist mythos. Regularly occurring but wholly unnecessary to femininity.

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

It’s just as easy to be feminine and love the truth, but our dishonest culture requires a woman to aggressively (mannishly) pursue it through the rotted thicket of official lies. We do them a favor by forcing them to take their medicine. Works for me. That’s the dynamic nature of eros, most apparent in the erotic (longing) bond between teachers and students.

I’ve sometimes wondered what it would be like to meet another non-troll female reader of this blog.

I’d say some of my qualities that contribute to why I read this blog regularly (and skim other “manosphere” blogs) are:
-I’m deeply introspective
-I do want to see the world in as truthful of a light as possible, and what I’ve read on this blog (and on a few other ones) seems to make the most sense in terms of laying out the world as it is (King A references this below)
-I appreciate good writing
“you noisome carbuncle on the ass of happy people”
Where else could I read something like this??! I literally grin when I read it!

I don’t know how a hardcore manosphere guy would view my femininity in person. I am pretty shy (which I’m guessing seems feminine), but if I’m involved in an interesting conversation I can come out of my shell and challenge someone. I have a feminine body and face, but I don’t wear much makeup at all or really wear high heels or anything like that. I have a masculine way of thinking logically, but my emotions also often surprise me with their ability to cloud my thinking. I seem to be a mix of masculine and feminine qualities. I don’t think it’s possible for a female manosphere reader to be very, very feminine in most respects.

So I don’t know about the other female readers, but this might provide a little insight into what meeting one might be like.

Thanks for the profile. Women don’t have to exhibit masculine traits to enjoy the content here, but it helps.

Your ability to “challenge” someone can be feminine — femininity is about subordinating those overt and aggressive qualities to the “pretty shy” passivity that defines your distaff nature. It doesn’t mean you can’t possess any of those abilities, nor does it mean that those abilities are ugly in women per se. Displaying them out of context and proportion with your essential femininity is what uglifies you.

A woman who is comfortable with her essential femininity will find moments to display the classically masculine virtues without doing violence to the essence: e.g., Joan of Arc. Same with men — if your manly cred is unassailable, you can get away with some metrosexual quirks. We lose our way when we 1) strip these qualities of their gender, and 2) presume we can order their importance in any way that pleases us. A bodybuilding woman is essentially masculine, no matter how many frilly dresses “she” puts on.

This post highlights the philosophical inconsistencies of the alpha/beta dichotomy. This post and the study it references talks about a woman’s preferences towards a relationship, which appears to be code for “beta”?

Women love all the things that give them power in a relationship, but then they end up hating those very things…this is the essence of the beta transformation that women attempt when they get into a relationship. They essentially undermine what they find attractive about men until they have a completely safe, secure, boring and neutered male.

Its not the end all/be all, but women like good-looking men. In relationships, they think they love all those things that give them the “edge” over their guy. So yeah, goodlooking men inspire dread and feelings of insecurity. But as has been covered many times here before, women truly like that uncertainty and it turns them on when a more powerful man has his way with them.

Maybe I missed it but I’m a working man in a hurry. I wanted to emphasize this point that needs to be hammered home.

”4. …women love to enjoy the privileges of their greatest strengths. … For women, this means that they love the feeling of power that their beauty gives them. A woman who is with a better-looking man has that power robbed from her in subtle and in sometimes transparently humiliating ways;

(by the very presence of her better-looking mate, even w/out him trying to out shine her. A candle gains its brilliance when its alone in the darkness)

When a woman can’t leverage her beauty because the better-looking man she is with doesn’t value it as much as a less attractive man would value it, she loses a sense of purpose to her life.”
(and power/leverage over her mate)
There is the most striking point of this post. The good looking man is not in awe of his gorgeous woman and she resents that. His lack of awe to her annoys her even w/out him actively speaking it and she loses the limelight.

I’ve experienced similar phenomena where girls I was with seemed to grate on my nerves and vice versa. It was like we were so similar that there was no chemistry in the relationship b/c we were complete on our own and came to resent each other’s presence.
Strange but true.

Well, yeah. Of course when all we have is a picture to go by, we go for the washboard and the broad chest . . . wide shoulders . . . nice carved quads . . . .

Wait. Sorry. But if that man posts that he likes long walks on the beach after his session with his psychotherapist and says how much he just wants a wife whom he can cater to (You know 😉) then, no. We would much prefer the average looking guy who will dominate us. Eye candy and attraction are often two very different things.

“I’m still waiting for someone to link me to the dating site that caters exclusively to in-shape fitness conscious women which connects them expressly to their preference for out of shape, chubby men.”

I’ll link you to it as soon as dating sites come up with a way to allow men to demonstrate social proof, pre-selection, leadership of men, frame control, voice tonality, dominance, good body-language, physical leading, etc. (Facebook can actually demonstrate social proof and pre-selection lol I used to play with that but now I don’t use FB)

This is why using dating sites is retarded if you’re not super good-looking. All a woman can judge you on is your looks. I told my 5’3″ buddy to not even bother with those sites cause he will get filtered out by every chick searching profiles just because of his height since it the girl consciously choosing what she wants (if there were a box to filter only for Nice Guys she’d checkmark that box too even tho we all know that’s BS). Whereas in real life he can get laid, even by those SAME chicks, because he can demonstrate all those other things that are actually relevant to attraction.

[heartiste: this is straight outta the alinsky playbook. what do you do if you’re a feminist and there’s a legitimate de facto war on men? you reframe and get the jump on the national discourse by calling it a war on women. presto magicko, your enemies are on the defensive!]

You can’t compare female attractiveness to male attractiveness, as they are judged on different standards. So a statement like “women want to be with men less physically attractive than they are” doesn’t make much sense. Is he prettier than she is? Softer features, bigger eyes, delicate hands? Of course she doesn’t want to be with that. How do you determine whether a man is handsomer than a woman is pretty?

Men want to possess beauty by possessing the girl who has beautiful qualities. Men are the curator. Women want to possess beauty by being the girl who has beautiful qualities. Women are the objet d’art. That accounts for the reason “women want to be with men” who are not beautiful. Beauty is her department.

Men are so wired for pulchritude that we can’t easily understand how women can be attracted to something not superficially beautiful. While they can appreciate a beautiful woman as much as a man (an underreported basis for trendy lesbian attraction), beauty is simply not as relevant to her relationship calculation. Male physical ugliness, in addition to being more masculine, is actually a contributor to attraction! Chicks dig scars, etc. Roughness is a sign of endurance — he has taken what the world (and God) has thrown at him and perseveres. It is a measure of inner strength.

That’s not to say women swoon over ugliness or fail to be attracted to handsome faces. Everybody prefers grace over plainness. But the mix of what goes into handsomeness is so far from female comeliness that they are two totally different qualities. Hers is not as straightforward as our calculation, particularly since she is less rational and conscious of what attracts her.

Finally, although beauty is much more important in women than handsomeness is in men, we still overestimate its importance in both sexes. Physical beauty just happens to be the most objective standard by which we measure attractiveness, other than the more quantifiable features like height in men or weight in women. The Chateau likes to say beauty is 97% of a woman’s attractiveness, but this is as much of an overestimation as the women who think they are chiefly attracted to male looks.

The less quantifiable factors (poise, demeanor, confidence, authoritativeness, self-control, style) are silently important, making up perhaps nearly half of the equation. We all know the counterintuitive wisdom that communication is mostly tone, manner, body language, and a small minority of it is the verbal content of what you say. Similarly, attractiveness is ~20-40% physical in men (and can actively detract), ~50-75% in women.

As women age, do their physical attraction triggers change (i’m talking purely physical, not seeing anything more than a picture)? Are we better able to pick an alpha male from just a picture? I ask because I find men such as Bruce Willis and Kurt Russell FAR more physically attractive than any Ashton Kutcher or pretty male model, even if the male model is muscular. Or does this have more to do with older men likely being more established due to their age and experiences?

The triggers don’t change, but their management of the triggers do. Young girls are more comfortable with boys who look like them (soft, pretty) because they are more familiar and less threatening — the Tiger Beat/Justin Bieber phenomenon. It’s an early same-sex attraction.

When a girl is inexperienced she (rightfully) avoids threats. Then she grows wiser and realizes the threat is the point, and her dangerous attractions can be indulged. Instead of being apprehensive about what might hurt her, the experienced girl embraces the risk she was always too anxious to take, now knowing it is the only way to achieve the highest ardor and protection: that which is strong enough to harm her is also strong enough to keep her from harm.

If this exchange is not instilled in her as a child — as it no longer is, of course — then she suffers into that wisdom as she gets used up by cock. She gains the courage to take a chance on the other side of her peak. She now can roll the dice.

No risk, no reward.
No pain, no gain.
No guts, no glory.
No Cross, no Crown.

Of course, in the ideal circumstance, the men in her life act on her behalf and indemnify the risks through their own store of honor. But we messed up that arrangement, now didn’t we? Welcome to the fuck-all. Guess who loses?

If you’re familiar with and understand “micro gestures”, you’ll see that the first time the female contestant looked at the male, she had a look of slight apprehension and then blinked completely.

What this tells me is that she contemplated cheating him – aka “Steal” – immediately, then blinked as she decided to go ahead with it. The next 2 minutes she fakes sharing the prize – she blinks completely at him every time he talks about sharing. So it would seem she never actually contemplated anything but stealing!

I’m not sure what GeishaKate‘s citation of honor has to do with your reference to Robert Greene’s third-rate rodent-counsel theory of manliness. Men are not squirrels and deceivers. They are strong, they wear their strength on their sleeve, they act directly. Greene’s advice — in both his Art of Seduction and 48 Laws of Power — applies to courtiers and sniveling survivors who manipulate appearances rather than realities: retreat and subversion and hiding like women, not men who stand and fight and occasionally die. They are evasive prey, not predators who command the landscape. His man has eyes on the side of his head like a scurrying bunny rabbit, not in front like the cat who slays him. They are vermin, not hunters.

Hegel’s dialectic of the master and slave is illustrative here. A man exerts mastery over another man when one chooses submission rather than death, which defines his condition as slave. The defining quality of the master is that he chooses death over submission (“Live free or die”). Greene’s brand of dishonor is outward submission so that one may fight surreptitiously. You may call that many things, but it is not manly, and it is just about the opposite of alpha.

A rough parallel with male honor is the female notion of modesty/chastity. The worst thing you can call a (honorable) man is coward, just as the worst thing you can call a woman is slut:

[T]he word “slut” is a leftover from the old honor culture which, as honor cultures throughout the world once did — and in many places still do — regarded a woman’s honor or virtue as amounting to her chastity before marriage and her fidelity within it.

I believe anyone, male or female, is allowed to use the word honor, no? Maybe they exhibit it in different ways, but they are both capable of it. I was simply referring to the fact that he presumably walked out of that studio with his honor in tact whereas she did not.

An interesting show to say the least. It appeared this was not the first round of the game and there was some mention of “revenge.” Perhaps he had already tried to cheat her? But, taking the clip just as it was seen, who would not rather be him than her? And, assuming the money was not their own to begin with, what really was lost? Potential gain is not the same thing as actual gain. Promise is not existence. He did not have the money before the show. He did not have the money after the show. Therefore, he lost nothing.

If you are a good looking guy, say 8-8.5, it seems you can only have success with women of the 8-10 range. – counter intuitive as it seems. I have never had success with less then an 8. Many a time I have been blow off by a 7.5 like I am the most unattractive beta yet countless times I have been approached by the 8 to 10 types. Nice problem to have but sometimes the 7.5 might be the highest in a given situation.

This seems to be highlighted in a short term work situation. About a dozen times I have worked on secondment in a large company for a few weeks or a few months where a fairly large amount of women work (mostly across the spectrum of looks and ages).
I find the 8 to 10 types are always more then friendly straight off the bat and will go out of their way to do things for you. Where as the lesser types are at best totally indifferent and mostly hostile. The 9 will hold the security pass door open for you even if you are 20 meters away (with a beaming smile) as opposed to the lesser types who will let it slam shut in your face even if you are two steps behind them.

Women go for STATUS in a man. Not looks. Women can appreciate a man’s looks intellectually, esthetically, even emotionally to an extent. But not sexually.

The thing about men’s looks is that it’s very easy to understand – from a man’s perspective, it’s logical and taken for granted that of course a woman goes for looks, because after all, a man goes for looks.

But women and men are different. They are not similar. A woman’s sexuality is not turned on by looks. Good looks plus a woman’s projections about the man because of his good looks – now that’s another story.

A good-looking man, who is a total introvert video game nerd, nervous around women and no clue about how to talk to women, is not getting laid. If the claims about good looks were true, ALL good-looking men would be getting laid, and the ugly men would have hard time getting laid.

Why women choose ugly men – it’s not about looks. Women do not feel sexually repulsed by ugliness – men do. Women feel replused by wimpiness, low status or no-status. Men don’t.

I am sure that even the small minority of women that this article claims go for looks actually go for status in some form or another. They wouldn’t give their pussy to a wimpy, nerdy, introvert ‘nice guy’, no matter how handsome those guys are.

Why it SEEMS like women go for looks is because women project.

Women project a heckuva lot of all kinds of forms of high status onto any goodlooking man. That way the women seem to drool for their looks, but they don’t. They drool for the projected status, that the women think (project) happens to come in an eye-pleasing package (remember, it’s not the sexuality that admires the man’s body/looks, it’s their other, more human than woman parts that do).

When women say they like smart men, for example, it doesn’t mean that a skillful linux coder who happens to also be a chessmaster, and can solve complex mathematical equations (and who also speaks nasally about boring things and has a very low status), is the man that turns them on.

It means that a woman immediately imagines a successful doctor, or a ‘socially intelligent’ man (in other words; PUA), or CEO of a multinational corporation. Women always include high status in their projections, so no matter what a woman claims, you better add the ‘high status’ projection into the equation, if you want the truth.

If a woman claims to love good looks in a man, you can bet she means “a HIGH STATUS man who ALSO has good looks”. Always. The good looks is her ‘human’ side desiring something, but her sexual side will always go for the high status.

Looks in a man matter to a woman about as much as a job of a woman matter to a man. It’s nice if you hear that a woman is ‘stewardess’ (not ‘flight attendant’), and it can increase your interest in a goodlooking woman, if you hear that she works as a nurse.

But if the woman is ugly, old and fat – it doesn’t matter if she’s a stewardess or not. Who cares if she’s a nurse?

THIS is the true reason why you see good-looking, beautiful or gorgeous women with ugly, fat, mutated-face men. The men have high status.

A low status ugly man doesn’t turn a woman on any more than a low status good-looking man. For women, it’s really not about looks.

That’s why women can’t always understand how looks can mean so much to a man, and why women are so ready to claim that men are so superficial, because looks are the only thing men care about in a woman (or at least the most important thing, sexually speaking).

Because their sexuality couldn’t care less about looks. Looks purely will keep the sexuality turned off, sleeping. High status (with or without looks) will immediately arouse the sexuality of (most) any given woman.

This is the way it goes – you can write articles about it, and misunderstand it to your heart’s content – and I don’t blame you, it’s very hard to see the truth when you clearly see women being impressed by good-looking men, when you see women drool over good-looking celebrities, and when you constantly hear women verbalize their attraction for good-looking men.

Just remember, all those men have high status in one way or another – women don’t drool for the looks in good-looking men – but for the status in the good-looking men.

Status – in one form or another, it’s what the women go for.
Looks – it’s what the men go for.

That’s the rule about men and women, that manifests itself in various and even complex ways, but when the chips are down, it always, always comes down to these two iron clad facts.

For women, it’s status.
For men, it’s looks.

And this is not going to change until humanity’s sexual preferences go through a complete overhaul (and no human-made system can change it).

Herno, I was quite shy but very good looking. Women used to stare at me. I got offered sex by a few women, including some attractive ones, which I chose to decline in every case but one. I married the girl I wanted, and I am sure my looks helped, although I now think she liked my patriarchal attitudes as well. And I get the sex I want from her.

I’m 32 and have been dating a 21 year old. She’s not a stunner but is very cute, feminine, and youthful. A solid 7. On the side, I started banging a 26 year old who was very petite, with a scientifically ideal hip:waist ratio, and a modelesque face with truly beautiful eyes. An 8.5+. But here’s the rub: the devil is in the details.

And by devil, i mean Father Time. Just 5 years older, the nominally prettier and more attractive girl nevertheless has the delicate deterioration that’s only noticeable upon close inspection, inches from the face.These things are absent from the younger yet less attractive 21 year old. Breasts are less buoyant, less firm, and the ass, while still wonderful, is less pneumatic than that of the girl just a few years her junior. This reality wreaks havoc in the mind of a girl like this that 99% of men wouldn’t hesitate to fuck. A younger, objectively less gorgeous girl is her competition, and she ultimately can’t win the exclusivity from a man she once could.

When you sleep with two different girls in short order, these little differences are stand out quite stark. Even with the diligent upkeep of healthy diet and exercise Miss 26 employs, women’s bodies simply break down far faster than men’s and this fact is incredibly depressing to lovers of beauty.

This is partly why superficially beautiful women will be with lesser-looking men, game and status notwithstanding. They know it’s rough out there, like it was for the aging beauties they stole men away from when they were 22.

To me, the post and linked study ring true insofar as male attractiveness are defined as facial structure and physical fitness. But are we not selling height a little short?

It’s enlightening to have more red pill insight into why you often see pot bellied, normal faced, poorly dressed men with attractive women.

But doesn’t any conversation about the utility of male looks in the SMP have to draw a distinction between height and facial structure/physical fitness? I would argue that height is THE dominant variable in male attractiveness.

But does an ugly face and pot belly on a 6’2 man decrease his SMV far less than a tremendous physique and a pretty face increases the SMV of a man that is 5’4?

You are correct in that height is a dominant factor in judging a man’s overall attractiveness. It’s no wonder “tall” precedes “dark,” and “handsome” in the well-known cliche, because it is truly one of the hardline prerequisites for most women. They very much want a man minimally at or, ideally, distinctly above their own height. In personal experience and in surveys, this preference is nearly universal.

A shorter guy MUST rely on his charisma and raw confidence to overcome his lack of height. Being tall will punch a lot of tickets for uglier and even less-fit men. That’s not to say they automatically get pussy, but all things being equal, they are given far more deference by women, and much more leeway in game. A short man who betatizes himself in front of a woman will be mercilessly ridiculed by her and her friends on account of his diminutive stature.

As such, shorter guys need to live like they are oblivious to height, because women will indeed make exceptions on this strong preference so long as the guy has strongly compensating traits, and, critically, betrays absolutely no insecurities about his height.

Any whiff of beta doubt and fear that she’ll take issue with his short frame will repulse her, because she’ll know he doesn’t have the state-control to blithely ignore his own shortcomings and go after what he wants.

So yes, lack of height qualifies as a “less attractive” factor in the eyes of beautiful women in the context of the thesis.