Live DNA Q&A – SCGS Jamboree 2017

Amber: Hey everyone and thanks for joining us for another Live DNA Q&A session. My name is Amber Brown, marketing manager for Legacy Tree Genealogists, and I’m joined here with Paul Woodbury, our Senior Genetic Genealogist, and he’s answering questions users submitted on www.legacytree.com/live about genetic genealogy and using DNA testing to extend your family history research. We received a ton of questions once again, so thank you to everyone who submitted those on the website, and we’re going to try and answer as many possible during the next 30 minutes, so stay tuned, and hopefully your question is one of the ones answered.

Amber: So let’s go ahead and get started. This first question comes from Liz. She says, “My grandfather was Spanish/French and I’d like to know how that happened seeing that my test came back that I’m 60% French/Spanish. Where do I even start to look to find out about my French/Spanish ancestors? Does French/Spanish also represent Puerto Rico?”

Paul: So, this is an interesting question, and we often get questions about ethnicity, particularly interpreting those ethnicities. In this case, we see that she has 60 percent of her DNA from French and Spanish. While each of us inherits 50 percent of our autosomal DNA from our mother, and 50 percent of our autosomal DNA from our father. So the fact that you’re sharing 60 percent of your DNA coming from the regions of France and Spain, indicates that you likely have ancestry from those regions on both sides of your family. You asked if that French/Spanish admixture could be coming through Puerto Rico as well, and that absolutely could be happening. Puerto Rico does have high levels of Iberian admixture in those test results.

The other part of your question was “Where do I start with interpreting my French and Spanish ancestry?” I think this highlights an important part of genetic genealogy research– mainly that genetic genealogy doesn’t exist in isolation. We really have to incorporate DNA evidence as part of traditional research. So, what I would recommend in exploring your French and Spanish ancestry is looking at many of the traditional resources that can help you with that. The reason I mention that is because in France and in Spain, and in many parts of mainland Europe, genetic testing has not achieved the level of prominence that it has here in the United States. Because of that, you may not be able to connect with a lot of your genetic cousins from France or Spain, so it’s important particularly in those contexts to explore the traditional research as well. Some excellent resources to consider as part of that, and particularly if their ending up in the Caribbean is to look for passport records of them leaving France. Bordeaux is one of the main ports that people left France from. Many of the passport records from Bordeaux have been published online and digitized through the department archives of the Gironde. There are also some great genealogy websites you can look at for French and Spanish research including Geneanet.org. So there are some great options that you should definitely consider in exploring your ancestry through traditional means, which complements and is part of genetic genealogy research.

Amber: Great, thanks so much. I hope that was helpful for you Liz. This next question comes from M.H: “After having living family members tested during these past 3 years, I now have enough probable matches to my paternal line. What is the best way to keep track of these new found DNA relatives? Is it helpful to know the centiMorgans and segments, etc?”

Paul: So this touches on a common concern among those who are exploring their genetic genealogy test results. It’s really frustrating as you start getting into DNA evidence, because it’s constantly changing. You know, I go into my test results one day, and then the next day I have an entirely new set of matches. It’s almost like trying to hit a moving target.

Amber: *laughs* Well that’s encouraging!

Paul: And, if you have multiple targets of what you’re trying to accomplish with your genetic genealogy research, that can get really confusing, really quickly. So what I recommend, is to choose a specific research question. Choose something you really want to focus on, and then use that as the guiding principle of what you’re doing with your DNA test results. There are some excellent tools that you can use to organize your DNA matches and to organize your results, but personally, I use the same organizational tools that I do for traditional genealogy research as I do for genetic genealogy. Namely, I use research logs, and I use correspondence logs to help me keep track of what I’m analyzing, when I’m analyzing it to interpret that data. Another important part of organizing your DNA data is to back it up, or to keep a good file structure of the matches that you have, when you looked at them, and what you determined about them. You can do that in your research log. I recommend also regularly downloading your match lists from each of the companies so that you have that data available because, although it doesn’t happen very often, it’s entirely possible that a genetic cousin who’s matched to you, could be genealogically informative, could go in tomorrow and go in and delete their account, and that’s completely within their rights. It’s important for you to be able to preserve that data. So, go in, download your raw data, download your match lists, and keep regular files of that information so you have it handy. One tool that I love to use to organize my DNA test results is called DNAGedcom Client. It’s a software that you download to your computer, and what it allows you to do is perform automated scans on your Ancestry DNA test results, on your 23andMe test results, and what’s neat about it is, if you go and you’re adding notes to your matches in 23andMe or Ancestry.com or FamilyTreeDNA, then what this program will do is when it scans your matches, it will also scan all your notes that you’ve attached to those matches.

Amber: Wow, that’s fantastic.

Paul: So that means that you can also come in and you can perform a search on your notes, and find that ‘one match that I remember seeing a little while ago but I can’t remember what I wrote about them,’ and that’s really helpful for me to organize my matches. He points out “should we paying attention to centimorgans, to the number of segments?” I do regularly analyze that information, so that’s exactly what you should be looking at. Evaluate the number of centimorgans that you’re sharing with these matches, evaluate if that match is what you’d expect to share with those genetic cousins, and use that information to evaluate your genetic relationships.

Amber: Perfect, that is great advice. Everyone has a homework assignment for this evening—download all of your match lists!

This next question comes from Ruth: “I’m trying to find my birth dad. How do I get started from my DNA test results? I know that he served in the early 1960’s and was stationed at Colorado Springs, but nothing more. I want to find him before it is too late.”

Paul: This is a really common situation, people trying to use DNA to connect with living family members. That is one of the main advantages and important blessings of DNA that we can use it to connect with these close family members with whom we’ve lost contact. In this case, Ruth asks us “How do I begin, or how do I get started with my DNA test results?”

When I first start getting involved with DNA test results, I recommend four simple principles to guide you in your research.

First, you want to publish. You want to make yourself available to others so that they feel comfortable reaching out to you. Make sure you publish information about your story, about what you do know about your family. If you have information on your maternal family, be sure to publish that as part of a tree attached to your test results so that other people feel comfortable working with you. Another important aspect of publishing that information is that each of the companies will then provide you with clues to help you identify which genetic cousins may be related through your known family. So in this case, if you publish a tree of your maternal relatives, then you can use that to filter out your maternal matches. By filtering out your maternal matches, you’re left with the remainder, which are probably pertinent to your paternal ancestry. So that can be really helpful, because rather than having to look at all of these matches and trying to figure out how each one is related, you can cut out half of them from the beginning and narrow your pool of research. So first publish.

The next is identify. Identification is the main goal of a lot of what we do in genetic genealogy. You’re always asking “how am I related to this person? How are they related to me?” So you want to ask how much DNA do they share with me? Do they have a published tree? Based on their published tree, do I have any ideas of how they might be related to me? So work on identifying people.

The third principle assists with that, and that is collaboration. Even if you know how somebody might be related to you, there are some great ways you can collaborate with them in order to enhance your research. Having access to their test results can really help to better filter your own test results because you have two ways of looking at different directions. Knowing any of their close relatives that aren’t related to you can help you eliminate those family lines from consideration and can help you narrow in on which line of their ancestry you are related through. So that’s the third principle.

The fourth principle is again identification, but this time, it’s identification of common ancestors. So the first identification was identification of your likely relationship, and this next identification is who are the ancestors. Who are the likely common ancestors that you have, and how might they be related to you. Once you’ve done those four principles you can begin to reconstruct your paternal tree, identifying likely ancestors, tracing their descendants, seeing how those lines intersect with each other, and then trace down to the right person, in the right place, at the right time, to be your father.

Amber: Awesome, thank you so much. Okay, this next question comes from Steve, and is a question we actually receive fairly frequently: “How much accuracy can DNA provide on maternal and paternal lines to connect to native American ancestry?”

Paul: So, we all have, well—not all of us, but many of us have the story of the Native American princess in our family history, and this is something that we get regularly. A lot of people also ask us with questions regarding what are the stipulations for using DNA test results in order to obtain tribal rights or gain access to tribal benefits. Now, it’s important to recognize that many tribes in the United States in particular, are sovereign nations, they have their own rules. So what they accept as proof for tribal benefits will vary from tribe to tribe. Some do accept DNA evidence, but in my experience, quite a few do not. While each of the DNA testing companies are very good at delineating what is the difference between Native American versus European versus Asian ancestry, it’s very difficult to identify the distinctions within populations of larger subgroups. To date, there are some cases where you can use DNA evidence to connect you to certain tribes, but in most cases, you’re just going to see that you have some Native American ancestry. If you do meet the qualifications to obtain tribal benefits, it’s likely that you 1) will know about that through more recent family history than your 7th great-grandmother, and you’ll also probably be able to document that through traditional evidence as well through the paper trail. In my experience, there are some situations where you can use DNA to find connections to a specific tribe, but that’s usually when you have more recent ancestry from that tribe. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else I can say on that topic. In most cases I’ve seen, probably the majority of the cases I’ve seen, somebody says, “I have Native American ancestry, why doesn’t it show up in my autosomal DNA test results?” It’s probably because you may not have Native American ancestry, and that’s common. Now, if you do have a more distant ancestor who was Native American, you can prove that connection through direct yDNA and mitochondrial DNA testing, so there’s some great things you can do there. Another resource I might point you to in regards to Native American DNA is Roberta Estes blog. She frequently talks about Native American DNA and different topics on Native Americans and genetic genealogy.

Amber: Okay perfect, thank you. This question comes from Mary: “I have a brick wall with my maternal grandfather: I’m unable to find any details about him other than basic information. Any suggestions on how to proceed would be much appreciated.”

Paul: Great. So this is quite common, and in this case, it’s a very recent ancestor, and that can be a little discouraging when you get started in genealogy and you come to your friends and they have these huge pedigree charts and you say, “Oh, I’m stuck at my grandfather.” We definitely understand your situation, and we come across this frequently. In your case, because it is such a close generation, DNA testing can definitely help you explore your possible relationships. I like the way you phrase it—“Any suggestions on how to proceed?” I think that a lot of times we just consider ourselves as the sole descendants of the DNA and we say “Well, if I test my DNA it’s not going to answer my question.” But you need to consider all of your relatives, all of the descendants of your maternal grandfather as potential sources of information. If we look at the genealogical proof standard, the first part of that is that we perform “reasonably exhaustive research”. That includes considering all sources that may bear weight on the evidence of a situation. I recommend that you consider each of the descendants of your maternal grandfather because although each of your grandfather’s grandchildren will have inherited 25 percent of their DNA approximately from him, they will have inherited different segments of DNA. Because of that, by testing multiple individuals, you’re going to get access to different genetic cousins, you’re going to get access to different relatives you can use to reconstruct his genealogy. Another recommendation I might make in this case is to test individuals who are known relatives through his spouse. So if you attach your maternal grandmother’s relatives then you can use that and you’ll have two pools of individuals: the descendants of your grandfather and his wife, and then you’ll also have relatives of the grandmother. By having those two groups of individuals, first you identify all the individuals in those match lists who are related to the descendants of your maternal grandfather and his wife, and if your maternal grandfather had several marriages or several relationships, definitely look for individuals descended from other relationships. So if he had a second wife, search for descendants of that second wife, because any DNA you share with them will have had to come through the grandfather. That will really help you key in on which genetic cousins on your larger match list are related to that maternal grandfather. Once you have this group of individuals who are related through the maternal grandfather as well as this group of individuals related through his wife’s family, you can identify all of the individuals related to the grandfather, and then you can filter out those who are related through the wife’s line.

Amber: That is a great idea, I would not have thought of that. So thank you! Okay, this next question is very similar and it comes from Kerry Ann: “How can I use DNA to find a name for my maternal Grandfather. My Mother was the only child from the affair, I have her Mother’s name, but the Father’s name is unknown. My Mum was born in Australia and died at the age of 97 last year so everyone is deceased. Her Mother was a singer/entertainer during WW 1 in Melbourne, Australia and I have joined Australian Genealogy groups and found cousins on my Mother’s maternal side but absolutely nothing on the paternal side.”

Paul: Okay, so this is a little bit different from Mary’s question because we’ve exercised genetic genealogy research within the context and the constraints of the traditional research or the area where we’re working in. Genetic genealogy doesn’t exist in a vacuum a lot of the time. We’re working with traditional evidence, we’re working with the available databases of tested individuals. What I always recommend for individuals who are searching for recent ancestry like this is to test at all the known databases, particularly for foreign countries. Whereas in the United States we have some of the companies that are a little bit stronger in some areas than others, in the foreign context, it’s kind of a luck of the draw. You could test at 23andMe, and then also test at MyHeritage, and the match that you need to solve your case may have tested in a different database. So be sure to test in each of the DNA databases to explore and to connect with the largest number of genetic cousins as possible. So that’s number one. Another thing that you will want to consider is to look for potential candidates–individuals who were there around that time period. Where was the regiment that was stationed there at that time—what part of the United Kingdom were they from? You can use that information to search for potential matches from that region and from that area. If you have again, known maternal relatives that you can test, definitely reach out to test them so that you can use that to filter your own test results and eliminate those individuals who are related through your maternal ancestry and focus on those that are pertinent to your research question. Now in some cases it’s a little bit hard for these foreign research problems, but success is possible. We just recently had a case in Papua New Guinea where we helped an individual connect with her biological father in Australia, and that was done using the existing DNA databases and through several close genetic cousins that we were able to use to reconstruct that paternal ancestry and then move forward on identifying her father. One thing that I will point out in these cases is just as important as who your genetic cousins share in common–so which genetic cousin matches which other genetic cousins—it’s also important to consider which genetic cousins AREN’T matching each other, because you can use that information to estimate that they’re likely related through unique family lines. So whatever your common ancestor with genetic cousin 1 and your common ancestor with genetic cousin 2, they’re likely from different sides of your family, but, if you trace their descendants, there should be an intersect somewhere between those two families that you can use to get a little bit closer to who your father may have been.

Amber: Okay, so this question comes from Anne: “What does genetic distance mean? Is that the number of generations?”

Paul: So this is a common misconception. A lot of people will sometimes come to us and say “I took a yDNA test, and it shows that I have this really close genetic cousin, and it says that we’re related at 0 generations, what does that mean?” What those numbers actually mean on direct line tests like yDNA and mitochondrial DNA is we’re looking at the number of stepwise differences between the DNA signatures. So your yDNA is passed on intact from generation to generation from father to son, and there occasionally are mutations introduced into that direct paternal line. When those mutations occur, it serves to delineate between different Y chromosome lineages. Same thing happens with mitochondrial DNA, although with the case of mitochondrial DNA, those mutations occur at a much slower rate. What genetic distance refers to is the number of mutations that separate those two signatures from each other. So I may have a common ancestor with this match, let’s say we both descend from George Woodbury, and George Woodbury had two sons. One son got a mutated copy of the Y chromosome, there’s 1 difference, and the other one got the exact same as George. Well, all of the first son’s descendants are going to have that genetic distance of 1 from these other descendants of the second son. If any of those descendants have a mutation, that will create a genetic distance of 2. So the genetic distance does not refer to the number of generations, rather, it refers to the number of mutations.

Amber: Okay, that makes perfect sense, thank you. This question was submitted by Judith: “I do not know who my paternal grandfather is. Would creating a mirror tree help?”

Paul: Okay, so Judith brings up mirror trees. Mirror trees are a type of methodology that we use in genetic genealogy to estimate the likely relationships between genetic cousins. The way it works is, you go into your test results, and this is used commonly in particular with Ancestry DNA test results because of their matching tree technology. So what happens is, you go into your test results, and let’s say you know who your maternal side of your ancestry is. You would want to fill that out as much as possible, so you can generate “shaky leaf hints” with your genetic cousins. That will help you to identify those maternal relatives in your genetic match list. Next, once you’ve identified which ones are pertinent to your research question, you know, who is related, who is maybe a close genetic cousin who I have no known relationship to, what you do in the case of mirror trees is that you adopt that persons tree, you copy it, you make it private, and you attach that tree that you have copied and you attach it to your own DNA test results. What happens after that is within a day or two, you will start generating shaky leaf hints. And what that does, is you can then use that to determine which of the ancestral lines of that individual, is likely the source of your shared DNA because you’ll be getting these shaky leaf hints to say, oh look, all of these genetic cousins also share these common ancestors way back in the 6th, 7th, 8th generation. So with the combination of all of those families, you can begin to fill in the generations in between. So the next step once you’ve identified which line that you have there, you add that somewhere in your tree, and then you do it with the next match and say, okay, which of this matches ancestors are likely the ones that we share in common. So that’s how you use mirror trees, where you’re copying a genetic matches tree, making it private and putting it to your own DNA test results. Now the reason I say you want to make it private is because if you haven’t contacted that individual before, they’re going to start getting shaky leaf hints to you if you keep it public and they’ll say, “Wait, this is me tree, where did they get it? That’s not me, they copied me!”

Amber: So vital step—keep it private. Take away. This next question comes from Alejandro: “If the test results show that the major % of my DNA matches a region/country that I do not have any knowledge of ancestor’s coming from there, how can I rely on the DNA test?”

Paul: So this is a common sentiment that I’ve heard, where somebody says, “Well if they can’t even get my percentage of German right, how do I expect them to estimate the relationships correctly?” It’s important to remember that there are two parts to a DNA test. Typically, you’ll get the ethnicity estimates with autosomal DNA, and you’ll also get your match list. The ethnicity estimates are broad geographic categories and they’re based off of analysis of specific segments of DNA and the probability that those segments are found in any given population. They’re much broader in their analysis, and I typically ignore the ethnicity results unless it is a very recent case, perhaps within the last 3 to 4 generations, and there is a unique ethnicity that stands out to me. Other than that, I really don’t lend too much attention to the ethnicity results. On the other hand, the DNA match lists are determined based off of how much DNA you share in common with individuals. While ethnicity estimate are exactly that—they’re estimates, these relationship estimates are also estimates, but they’re much more accurate at estimating the probability of relationship, particularly for close relationships. You can have very strong confidence in the call of a parent-child relationship, in a full-sibling relationship, in a half sibling relationship, an uncle to a nephew relationship, even up to the level of first cousin. There are very unique ranges of DNA we expect to observe between those two individuals. Once you move a little further out, it does become a little bit more ambiguous. A second cousin once removed could share an amount of DNA similar to that of a third cousin. A fourth cousin might share as much DNA as a 6th or 7th cousin, it just depends on the luck of the draw. But particularly for those close relationships, we do observe very unique ranges of DNA that we expect to observe given their proposed relationship and given their genetic relationship.

Amber: Okay, perfect thank you. This question was submitted by Jonnie: “Can results from different companies be compared (by the DNA submitters) to learn if they might be related? Or are the results proprietary to each company?”

Paul: Each DNA testing company does maintain their separate databases of customers and genetic cousins. Sometimes I hear the sentiment of “Wouldn’t it be nice if all the companies just got along and we could all access the same database?” I don’t know if we actually want that. I think that competition is good. When the companies are in competition with each other it pushes innovation, it pushes them to provide additional tools for analysis, it pushes them to put forth their effort so we get the best product. If we’re all working from the same pool there’s not a lot of motivation to improve it, it’s more of a bureaucracy. So, although each of the companies do maintain proprietary databases, that is beneficial to us. That being said, FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage DNA do accept transfers of autosomal DNA test results from the other companies, so if you have several relatives who have tested at different databases, consider transferring all of your DNA test results to FamilyTreeDNA or MyHeritage DNA where you can perform comparison with those results there. Gedmatch.com is also a free, third-party website that accepts autosomal DNA transfers from the major DNA testing companies, and where you can perform direct comparison and analysis between individuals who originally may have tested at different databases.

Amber: This question comes from Susan: “If a Y-DNA test is done on the 5th great-grandson of our ancestor who immigrated to the U.S. in 1768 from Northern Ireland and a male from a family with the same surname now living in the same area in Northern Ireland, how likely is it that these tests would confirm a connection?”

Paul: First I’ll say, it depends on the surname. If the surname is Smith—unlikely. But, if it is a unique surname, if it’s from the same region in northern Ireland, there’s a good chance that they may have a genetic relationship. Once way that you can estimate the probability of connecting with these types of individuals, and that is little-known, even among genealogists, you can go to FamilyTreeDNA and search their project pages for that surname and see how many other people with that surname have tested in the FamilyTreeDNA database. If there’s a large number then there’s a good chance that you might connect with some of those individuals. If there’s a Surname Project dedicated to that surname that’s already in existence, you can visit the homepage for that Surname Project and you can review the DNA test results of those project numbers and you can see because each project member will report their most distant-known common ancestor along that direct paternal line, you can see if somebody else from your family has already tested and joined that Surname Project, or you can see if other individuals from the potential relative line have also tested, and you can see if they’re sharing the same marker value. So, you could potentially figure this out without even having to do any DNA testing yourself.

Amber: Wow, interesting! Okay, so that kind of leads into our next question that comes from Terry, and this is kind of lengthy, so bear with me : “I have started the McAtee DNA Project. Currently our project has about 50 members: a few YDNA tested, and the rest are Autosomal tested, and most believe they are descended from Patrick and Rosamond McAtee of Colonial Maryland.

The earliest McAtee patriarch to MD was Patrick McAtee, in about 1674.

The descendants of his two sons, Edmond and Patrick, have disputed lines because of burned records, or people dying without wills; census records not including all family member’s names, lack of Family Bibles, etc.

Very few McAtees have original source proof of their lines all the way to Patrick and Rosamond McAtee.

Is it realistic that we might be able to confidently place descendants in the accurate line using DNA in addition to what records we actually have, and if so, what are your suggestions to accomplish this goal?”

Paul: Okay, so this is great and I want to highlight in this portion the importance of collaboration in genetic genealogy research. In this situation, it’s very unlikely that the DNA test results of a single descendant of this couple would really be able to address these questions.

In this case, I think it is definitely possible to utilize DNA test results from multiple descendants to explore this type of research question. It’s important that as you’re selecting candidates to test for yDNA testing, I recommend searching for individuals who are no more closely related to each other than the level of third cousins—that’s 8 generational steps. The reason for that is because anything less than that, and you’re often getting the exact same information and you’re getting exact matches, and you don’t really get information on the mutation structure of that line. If you’re looking at autosomal DNA matches, I recommend searching for individuals that are again, no more closely related to each other than the level of second cousins once removed or third cousins. That is of course assuming that you’re the one financing a lot of this research. You want to maximize the results on your effort, and so, you’re trying to find individuals who likely have unique DNA coming down to them from these different descendant lines. If you have lots of family members who are willing to participate and are willing to test-test everybody if they’re willing to cover the cost of their tests. As you do autosomal testing, you may connect with genetic cousins who are from your family, who have already tested. Collaborate with those who have already tested to help with your budget.

Amber: This question comes from Shelly: “With the number of DNA tests available, how does a person know which one is the best one? Also, do the DNA tests only track the male line of your ancestors or do they provide results for both the male and female lines?”

Paul: The answer to this question is—it depends. It depends on the research case. It depends on the research question you may have. I think it really is good for us to test in each database that you can. Each one has it strengths, each one has it weaknesses, and you’re going to get different matches at each one. With autosomal DNA matches, you will get information from both the male and the female line. If you’re doing mitochondrial DNA testing it will be along the female line that is giving you information, and if you’re doing yDNA testing then it will give you information for the direct paternal line.

Amber: This question comes from Grace: “What information would someone have to give you to do research on your family and how much does it cost?”

Paul: At our company we offer DNA Analysis and interpretation, and we love to assist our clients helping to incorporate DNA evidence as part of their genealogical research. To make your research session most effective, it’s best if you can have information ready ahead of time. Consider testing multiple relatives who are descendants of the ancestor you’re interested in testing. Consider testing unrelated relatives to the line that you’re researching so we can use their results to filter your results and focus on those that matter most. Consider testing at each of the major testing companies. Each of those efforts is going to make it possible for us to make the most progress on your DNA test results in the limited time that we have. We have several levels of research projects. The lowest is the Discovery Project, it’s a research plan. You can use this to just get a quick feedback on some basic DNA evidence to say “What do you think of this?” and we can tell you. You can use it to develop a DNA testing plan using a family tree that you’ve compiled to identify the individuals that would be best to invite to test to answer your research question, or we can also use it to develop a detailed testing plan for you to better identify the exact steps that you could take in exploring your DNA evidence and connecting it to your family tree.

Amber: So we are actually out of time, but I wanted to announce the winner of our DNA Analysis Sweepstakes that we’re giving away. We received over 2200 entries, so yay you guys! And the winner is—should we do like a drumroll? &drum roll* Ryan Cahill! Congratulations, Ryan, I’ll be reaching out with details on how to claim that prize. Thanks to everyone who entered, and be sure to join us for our next Live DNA Q&A session. If you’d like to submit a question for future reference, just do so on our website at legacytree.com/live, and while you’re there be sure to subscribe to our blog. We have a ton of free research tips, and articles and ideas—lot’s of great information over there. Thanks for joining us for our live DNA Q&A session while we’re live at Jamboree, and we’ll see you next time. Thanks everyone, enjoy the rest of your weekend!