Britain

Britain and Europe

Brexit or Brinfluence?

ON JULY 15th a triumvirate of politicians declared their support for Britain’s membership of the European Union (EU). Peter Mandelson, a former Labour Party minister, Ken Clarke, a Conservative Party minister and former chancellor, and Danny Alexander, the Liberal Democrat chief secretary to the Treasury, unveiled the manifesto of “British Influence”, a new campaign group. “Far from leaving Europe, Britain should be leading Europe,” it proclaimed.

The enthusiastically pro-European language echoed an earlier, simpler time. In 1975, when Britons voted in a referendum to remain in the European Economic Community (EEC), the EU’s precursor, such talk was the norm. Businesses, commentators, Conservatives and the sensible wing of Labour lined up to advocate staying in Europe. Margaret Thatcher, later an arch-eurosceptic as prime minister, joined in—sporting a fetching woolen jumper depicting the flags of the member states.

Today, things are rather more complicated. In January David Cameron annouced his intention to hold a referendum on Britain’s EU membership in the next parliament. Today’s union is much larger than the EEC and reaches much further into British life. Now, unlike then, fellow member states are wracked by economic crisis. The Tories are divided: at most a quarter of their MPs are convinced of the case for continued membership. Eurosceptics, by contrast, are many and well-organised. On Tuesday the Institute for Economic Affairs launched a €100,000 prize for the best plan for an orderly British exit ("Brexit") from the EU.

But as the British Influence manifesto argues, the basic case for British membership remains strong. The single market makes Britain wealthier, and a seat at the table gives it sway in Europe and beyond. Perilously few prominent voices are willing to make that argument. That the group’s leading spokesmen from the two main parties—Mr Clarke and Mr Mandelson—are both figures of the past is telling.

Behind closed doors, businessmen fret about Britain’s slide towards the exit. But wary of displeasing eurosceptic customers and shareholders, few are willing to make the point out loud. Peter Kellner, a pollster, notes that the strength of the “in” campagn in any referendum (as in 1975) will depend on the pragmatic economic case, but argues that it is up to the private sector to make that point.

In the absence of such voices, the debate will concentrate on the wrong things. Six months after Mr Cameron’s speech, it is dominated by subsidiary disagreements about the case for a referendum (on which Labour remains split) and the details of any unilateral renegotiation (likely to prove cosmetic at best). The crucial argument—why Britain should stay in the union and lead reform from within—is subdued. British Influence’s initiative is therefore welcome. But without a larger, noisier choir of supportive voices, its own influence could prove too small.

Same difference. The EU is now what Britain always wanted: A politically impotent free trade zone. Deplorable, now that the NSA scandal has proven that a counterweight to the U.S. is more than necessary.

The idea that Britain can "lead reform from within" defies experience: as time passes, we are ever less able to even influence EU policy - never mind lead it. In truth, the only major role we have in the project lies in funding it.

The biggest problem with belonging to Europe is the same as almost everything else these days - a complete lack of trustworthy information. I have no idea how much we give to the EU vs how much we actually benefit. You can read articles claiming everything from the EU makes all our laws to we are still an independent sovereign state.

If we ever get some un-biased FACTS perhaps we can make an informed decision about Europe. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening, there are too many vested interests involved.

But the truth is, this Eurosceptic drivel should not get half as much attention as it has been getting. Nobody is leaving the EU. Let those extremists continue to bark at each other (with false data and shoddy arguments) as much as they want.

They can continue to live in this dream world where they get a referendum on something just because it's their opinion, despite the fact that it will revoke the rights of millions of people.

It's a difficult discussion. Clearly the British desire, and should have, more autonomy. The real question is, will threatening to leave help them achieve it? Or will Europeans merely scoff and say goodbye? The majority of EU-skeptics do not want the UK to leave entirely, they simply want a renegotiation of terms. But is that possible? Ultimately it may come down to a gamble. Are you willing to risk being permanently outside of the EU in order to have more leverage at the negotiating table?
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From an American historical point of view, I can say that governments have an incredibly strong tendency to only become more centralized and powerful over time. The United States used to resemble the original EU, but is now the superstate that you know today. Many people want the same for Europe. If you want to preserve your old system of government, it is best to take a stand sooner rather than later. Although I cannot say for sure if the benefits will prove to be worth the costs.

Our media is mainly US or Foreign owned or funds the Tory Party they hate anything that they can't control - BBC, NHS, EU. They constantly feed us with horror stories (mostly made up or exaggerated) to undermine our support for these great institutions.

If Britain lost the war I would be writing this comment in German. This magazine would be called 'Der Wirtschaftswissenschaftler'. Jews, gays, gypsies, blacks and the disabled would be conspicuous by their absence.

Oh, you mean the USA and Russia won the war? The war started in 1939. The US declared war on Germany in 1942, and Russia only joined the war when France had been occupied and Der Fuhrer mounted an unprovoked attack on Russia, with whom he had a peace treaty.

So Britain fought alone against Germany for two years, with the help of countries such as Poland, France, Greece etc, until they were crushed under the jackboot and Britain stood alone.

The US and Russia were necessary to eliminate the Nazi stain from Europe, but Britain continued to fight even when defeat seemed inevitable. And would have fought until the Nazis were walking down Whitehall, and even then they would have continued fighting.

Margaret Thatcher did'nt want the two Germanies to be united because she feared Germany would start yet another world war - their third. When it comes to going apeshi*, Germany has form.

If Germany wants to be saved from itself by tying itself into a strong and stable Europe, they had better open their wallets and start bailing out the PIIGS. Otherwise it might be becessary to call in the pest control boys again.

I'm not too sure that you are "on the ball" here. Within the UK, those that thought that a world map should have a lot of countries marked in pink to signify that they belonged to a "British Empire" left public life in the 1960s and are all are since dead.

I am now 67 but was a "child (teenager) of the 1960s when we the working class took over all the media, arts and left all that stuff behind. I love history as a subject but can think of few people I have ever met who want to go back to the "Days of Empire", we lived through that dissolution and the "Rape by Our Friends on Wall Street" in two World Wars that they were reluctant to join.

As to your ideas on "Britain's Influence" on the World, you are guilty of an illusion. The reality is that Britain will always be judged by just two things and it matters not a jot whether we are part of the EU or not, military and economic capacity and capability. Truth tell, that applies to the USA, Russia and China too, just the way it is.

Being the fourth biggest contributor in absolute terms means far more than the per capita value of a tiny country.

Conversely, the UK spends far more per capita on European defence than everyone else. Only our French cousins come close in this important regard. Here we and our Gallic neighbours take responsibility in areas where others would be considered 'free riders'.

However, it is the EU leaving Britain behind rather than a Brexit from the EU. The British voted for a common market not an "ever closer union" leading to a meddling federation.

What does it say about the EU when an outward-facing country like the UK is seriously considering leaving? Not my words...but the words of a German politician.

What EU needs today is leadership. We all need UK to join in as a LEADER, instead of raising ever more obstacles and exceptions.

It's a huge opportunity for UK, how come so many of you don't see it? Germany is not comfortable leading alone for historic reasons. France lost its momentum. Other countries are too small for this role. Everybody waits for UK to finally assume some responsibility here.

It will benefit everybody (including UK), and that's a core idea behind EU: live together, work together, benefit together.

I have often written before that the biggest problem with discussing the EU is that "On Both Sides" of the argument the language is totally wrong which is a lot worse than the extremes of both camps being deaf to each other. Whether you are 'Pro or Anti' the EU and not just as a 'Brit' but also the citizen of any member state, there needs to be a proper discussion about what it is for or about.

Personally, I couldn't give a fig for how much we in the UK pay as membership dues to the EU just so long as it 'works', in Saxon England we paid far more in Danegeld to keep the peace. The plain fact of the matter is that the EU doesn't work at any level and the proof of that is not just the ecologically disastrous EU 'Fishing Policy', it is best demonstrated in the 'Euro'.

There was absolutely "No Way" that the economies of Ireland and the rest of the PIIGS could be equated as equal with Germany from day one and everybody knew it. Today the Eurozone is dying because of that one act of abject cowardice which should have refused membership of the Euro to countries that didn't meet 'the standard'.

Why do the PIIGS want to hang onto membership of the Euro, it is national insanity, any government that does should be put against a wall and shot. Screw the Euro, revert to national currencies, take the pain you are already living anyway and move on so that both your children and grandchildren have a future within your own borders rather than as them being emigrants to other economies...

Regardless of the exact details, there needs to be an acceptance that "As It Is", the Eurozone and with it the EU, is not workable and perhaps the ever sceptical British electorate, especially of their own politicians which we abhor 'by default' just got there way ahead of the average EU citizen.

Yes Britain can offer 'leadership' but from the grass roots and that means "show me" as said by the average voter of whatever political persuasion. The EU is just not "delivering" anything of value to most EU citizens, fine words and music will mean nothing when once again it is us, our sons and grandsons in a trench in another European War caused by the 'mistake' of some idiot sitting in 'some chancellery' prattling on about nonsense.

People who want to stick their fingers in their ears to drown out the sound of 'freedom', do so by calling other people names, that is childish. The Euro is the "Rock" on which the EU is being destroyed not British Scepticism which may well prove to be the only thing that may save the EU from its otherwise inevitable end.

If you want the Hard Truth, Britain cannot walk away from Europe, we live there and in generation upon generation, our 'blood and gold' have been spent there in order to keep "Our Peace" at home rather than foreign advantage for Britain. It is not time we proved we are "Good Europeans", it is high time Europe proved it had rid itself of its Napoleons, Kaisers and Mussolini s, Hitlers and all such 'wonder-kind' for once and forever.

Time Europe joined us, not the other way around I suspect, time for both honesty and freedom of trade to take stage front so that all can prosper to whatever level suits them.

We Germans essentially pose the same questions as the Brits do to the existence EU, but our options for potential answers are quite different. The EU needs to be enforced and most important has to be democratized in all matters that cannot be solely regulated on a national level (in fact there are plenty of them). Conversely its influence should be pulled back where subsidary is more efficient.

Having said that, our experiences made with federalism is overall not too bad, since Germans mainly draw their identity from belonging to a certain region or being more specific belonging to a certain germanique culture rather than being German.

So being timided of loosing identity in a more unified Europe may prove to be not the major issue, but more that present and possibly future Europe is so short of being democratic.

So that is what the Brits, German and all the others should fight for.

What do you mean by 'British'?
'British Empire'? '.. Commonwealth'? or just traditional name taken by current local government?
It may upset you, but there is no that old Great Britain anymore.
Current Britain experiencing problems even with closest allies inside the union.
Scottish referendum is closer than any European.

Dear Euroskeptics,
The EU is the best thing the world has seen in many years in terms of international relations FOR THE PEOPLE. I travel a lot (luckily for me, I must admit) and being in Europe feels like been at home. You can move, work, study, learn foreign languages, etc...and so easily. I’m writing this from beautiful Istanbul, which should be in the EU, by the way. I’d move here tomorrow!
So do you really want the British people to have a hassle when they go to Spain, Italy, France, etc..? That they must renew their visa, have a different queue, be sent through the "non EU line", no more Erasmus students, etc… Isolation will be linked to less sympathy in all the neighboring countries (and for a reason). I doubt people would feel happy about this. Plus, there’s not even a serious analysis that proves that Britain would do economically outside the EU. Then where all this comes from? Tell all these things before the referendum. It’s common sense. That UKIP has no program; they use this bad excuse as their means to get votes. Don’t you see it? The UK is one of my favorite countries. And I believe it should lead Europe, it’s where it fits better.