The website, pictures, and videos look more like a high school project. Not to be a hater but I hope my BS radar is off and all of this is true and will come to fruition as any new technology on the EV front will be good for everyone.

cloroxbb | 26. Februar 2013

I would like to know how they get their batteries charged in 10 minutes...

Ill be on the lookout in 2015 :)

EVTripPlanner | 26. Februar 2013

Here's what I told my son (engineering student at Stanford) when he told me about this last night:

Very hyped and obviously still “high concept”. Mostly possible if you have enough money and are willing to make a very expensive (could be one of those million dollar jobs) and heavy car (think Rolls…as the style seems to indicate) with the very cutting edge of everything. To get that combo of top speed and acceleration, it would need a 2 speed gearbox (on each wheel, since it has a motor per wheel). While their high-voltage scenario has some reasonableness to it, the thing I do *not* think is practical with today’s technology (at any cost) is the 10 minute charge. You do the math for the energy required for 620 miles at 77mph with a drag coefficient as good as the Model S and the kW required to fully charge that battery in 10 minutes! I'm skeptical that this team could have made that big a leap in battery and charging technology. This is a paper tiger (from Malta?) and I would take a bet that we won’t even see a verifiable prototype in their 2015 “production” timeline. Their profile at http://www.enfsolar.com/directory/seller/14851 shows only 50 employees.

(my estimate of minimum battery capacity, without even taking into account much higher weight and the impact of 4 motors and gearboxes, is that it would have to be at least 250 kWh (3x max Tesla) meaning, after charging losses, well over 1700kW power supply - yes, 1.7 MEGAWATTS, to charge in 10 minutes!)

DouglasR | 26. Februar 2013

I wouldn't be so skeptical. They make one helluva coffee pot.

jat | 26. Februar 2013

Even if you assume the battery is 200kWh, to charge in 10 minutes would require 1.2MW of power. At 240V, you need 5000A which is patently ridiculous (a typical house has 200A service). Let's assume they have 480V 3-phase power, and now you are talking about "only" 833A on each of the three phases. Ok, let's assume that is feasible even if it still seems pretty far-fetched, and look at the heat generated by charging: assuming the resistance the charging current flows through totals 1 ohm (internal resistance of a single lithium cell is in the single-digit milliohms, but there are a lot of them in series and there are other components in the system). That means during the 10 minute charge, you are generating about 416MJ of energy as waste heat, or about 394M btus. As the capacity of a typical air conditioner for a large home is around 60,000 btus, you need more than 6 whole-house-sized air conditioners to remove the heat generated in the car, to say nothing of the heat in components exterior to the car. Now for the real kicker -- all this is assuming you only need to put in 1.2MW -- however, we are wasting nearly 57% of the input energy as heat, so we actually have to put in a lot more than that. As we put in more, the amount we lose goes up with the square of the current, so it gets even worse.

Ok, so the problem above is current, what if we just jack the voltage up to lower the current? With AC, that is easy enough to do (it isn't cheap at high currents/voltages), but the problem is that ultimately our batteries are DC and the battery pack is going to have a voltage somewhere in the 250V-500V range.

TL;DR - this is pure fantasy, and the fact that they can't even consider basic physics should be enough to dissuade anyone from believing them, completely aside from the fact that they have nothing but drawings and a wish list at this point.

torst1 | 26. Februar 2013

Don't be haters.
As seen on the Mercedes E all electric by Brabus a 4wd sporty saloon with torque like a frighttrain does not need gearboxes. 1 motor in each wheel hit the pedal and the motors spins up. Just like Tesla.

All though I agree the specs might be on the optimistic side I do believe it can be feasible within 2015.

Lets give these guys some more time and see if they come up trumps.

kjo | 26. Februar 2013

Competition is good for the market.

Plus, then maybe I won't have to share my Model S.

What is the price point?

Brian H | 26. Februar 2013

But can it levitate? We're talking sci-fi, after all.

jat | 26. Februar 2013

@torst1 - so if they said it generated free power and you never had to plug it in would you believe it? That is only slightly less feasible than the claim of charging a 600+ mi battery in 10 minutes. It has nothing to do with being a hater, it has to do with math and physics.

jbunn | 26. Februar 2013

I assume the wont have a supercharger network. You just go to the closest nuclear power plant, and hook directly to the mains.

Chuck Lusin | 26. Februar 2013

The hypercharge, uses in the KV 1000's of volt range, You will not be able to get that at home or the power required.

torst1 | 27. Februar 2013

@jat

Are you one of them hateful persons that try to make other people look dumb and think that you yourself come out looking smarter by doing so? Let me tell you it does not work well for you. And just to clarify - NO I would not believe an electric car could run without charging.

But what I do believe is that charging in 10 min is doable. It is not magic, voodoo or blackhat it is just a matter of using the right charger. Or as you stated, it is just a matter of math and physics.

Sure you will not be able to charge the car in 10 min in you own garage, but they never claimed that was the case. Rather I assume they are planning to build or setup a network of supercharger sort of what Tesla is already doing.

Get well soon.

LazMan | 27. Februar 2013

I am certainly no expert, but people who know about this stuff would be able to calculate the heat generated when trying to charge such a large battery in 10 minutes.

If the charging efficiency is 95%, that 5% of the total power turning in to heat over the 10 minute charge duration would probably melt the who setup.

I recall this being a problem when Eestor made it's claims.

sandman | 27. Februar 2013

A 10 min battery swap would be easier to achieve IMO. I think Tesla should plan on doing that once enough of these S's are on the road and the economies of scale could overcome the costs of battery inventory and personnel. Leasing the battery packs and having them easily replaceable might be easier than trying to build massive charging networks.

I would pay up for a battery leasing option and Tesla would have another ongoing rev stream and would have yet another way to combat the long haul issue.

In addition, having a chassis design that enabled quick and easy swapping could be sold as a standard to other EV makers making the scale even easier. But, yeah trying to set a standard in the auto industry....

hsadler | 27. Februar 2013

@cliff

"1.7 MEGAWATTS, to charge in 10 minutes!"

So how many solar panels will I need to add to the roof?

jat | 27. Februar 2013

@torst1 - charging 200kWh or more in 10 minutes is not just a matter of using the right charger - in fact the charger has very little to do with it. It has to do with the huge amount of current that would be required, and the resistance of the whole charging path inside the car. That resistance generates waste heat, and that heat has to be removed. So, what you actually need to do this are a new type of battery that doesn't exist yet that has much lower internal resistance, and then you probably need to use superconductors for the wiring.

I'm not sure why you would believe something just because somebody, who hasn't built even a prototype yet, claims it. If you say you wouldn't believe a perpetual motion machine if it were claimed, why do you believe this?

Does your charging cable feel warm after it has been used at 40A for a while? Imagine if you were over 20 times the current through it, which produces the 400 times the heat. And that is just in wire with a resistance way under a milli-ohm. A single battery cell is much more than that, and you have to put them in series to charge at a higher voltage.

Before Tesla's supercharger, nothing came close to how fast it could charge. However, it is "only" a 90kW charger, while these guys would need well over 1MW using very optimistic estimates.

Another downside is battery life -- current lithium batteries will degrade rapidly when charged at 6C (which is the rate of charging their full capacity in 10 minutes). So another reason that to do this requires a battery that hasn't been invented yet.

jat | 27. Februar 2013

@sandman - see Better Place, who has a monopoly on EVs in Israel, a much smaller number of battery swap stations because of the small area to cover, and it is still bleeding money and can't get customers for a battery lease that exceeds what customers would ever spend on gas. The economics just don't work for a full battery swap model, as the costs are so much higher than something like the Supercharger.

sandman | 27. Februar 2013

It is an interesting example jat thanks for finding and posting it.

However, I think the Israel example is a bad one. A country covering 8k sqmi is the not same as the US. Israel is smaller than the NY metro area, smaller than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I'd never need to swap batteries if I had a tesla in Israel. The country just isn't big enough.

But I think your point is that the economies of scale have to be very large and the flow of inventory(i.e. batteries) has to be pretty high to justify the investment in inventory. And that I agree with 100%.

BTW, Tesla is still bleed money and has been since its existence. Many start ups do. That does not prove that it can't ever work.

jat | 27. Februar 2013

@sandman - the main argument for battery swapping is that you don't have to buy a large expensive battery that you aren't going to use very often. So, imagine buying a 40kWh Model S and then being able to swap the battery as you needed to drive it arbitrary distances.

That won't work in the US because you would need way too many battery swap stations to cover the area, but if it can work anywhere it should work in Israel where you need far fewer.

TheAustin | 27. Februar 2013

You forgot to mention that it is ugly and sloth-like.

In the realm of the 10-20 hypercharge, the Lightning GT is also offering a similar super-quick charge time, and it's a far better looking car than the Silex Cheros (which I can't even say with a straight face!)

Other than a Tesla, the Lightning GT is the only other EV I would even consider owning...And even then, it's performance and range is still below the Model S. It's still a pretty gorgeous looking car though:

And, what the hell...I already own my dream car...Nothing wrong with coming up with a new dream car, right? ;)

sandman | 27. Februar 2013

@jat, no it wouldn't ever work in Israel because no one needs to swap while on the road there. It is TOO SMALL AN AREA. They just charge at home or at work. And the same in the US metro areas. I'm talking about a long haul problem. Trying to avoid a 30-60 minute charge. You need as many swap stations as you do supercharging locations. That company is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist in metro areas for Teslas.

Not everyone can spend $20k on a large battery that they will only actually use a few times a month.

sandman | 27. Februar 2013

@jat, we are in two different debates. they are trying to solve a problem that does not exist for Tesla owners(i.e. metro area commuters requiring fast recharge times).

EcLectric | 27. Februar 2013

Now jat, don't get mad, but...

"Not everyone can spend $20k on a large SUV that they will only actually use a few times a year..."

"... oh they did? and all the gas they wasted?... they did? ... oh, yeah"

I'm trying to say that people do things that are not very efficient/smart because of the way they think. If I hear one more kid say, "but what if there's a zombie apocalypse?", I'll scream.

Brian H | 27. Februar 2013

Sandman;
You haven't really even begun to address the $$ problems, or ownership, etc. Each station must have a "float" of batteries being recharged or ready at all times, in adequate shape. X100 - 200. Same with all the lifts, 'bots etc. Each station would cost millions, and be fully staffed.

At a rough guess 20-50X capex as much as the entire US Supercharger network. With differing recharge costs all across the country in operation to generate revenue to pay for it all. And/or sky high rentals.
Given a choice of the gas, supercharge, and swap systems at fair price, very few will be able to afford the latter. Which means few customers. Which means death.

Persuade your enemies to give it a shot!

Brian H | 27. Februar 2013

Edit;
Each station 20-50% capex as much....

bobinfla | 27. Februar 2013

They are ominously silent about the number of cupholders. I think that's a deal breaker.

Chuck Lusin | 27. Februar 2013

limited run of 300 units, and no cup holders..

Timo | 4. Mars 2013

Very fast charging could be achieved using a lot higher voltage in batteries than Tesla is using (for charging, maybe with separate circuit). High voltage just causes safety hazard and would require some sort of extra safety measures for charging. 1.7MW could be achieved with 2kV@85A