So, the Type-R is seriously cool and all, but I would probably have to settle for a Sport Hatchback because I have a family and the price is much more reasonable. Granted, I'm not likely to buy regardless because my one requirement for the next family car is seat memory and that isn't offered on any trim Civic.

Considering the Hyundai slots the Civic coupe and sedan in terms of space, and matches the performance of the Type R for less money, I'd say Hyundai wins. I would also prefer the low grunt and exhaust note of the N over the Type R.

Considering the Hyundai slots the Civic coupe and sedan in terms of space, and matches the performance of the Type R for less money, I'd say Hyundai wins. I would also prefer the low grunt and exhaust note of the N over the Type R.

It's less performance, in a smaller car, with less doors - for less money.

To clear up any inconsistencies in my take, let's just take Car and Driver's calcs. The Veloster really lost on braking feel, steering feel, and at the limit handling. The gap between the Veloster N and Civic Si is much greater per dollar than the gap between the N and the Type R.

To clear up any inconsistencies in my take, let's just take Car and Driver's calcs. The Veloster really lost on braking feel, steering feel, and at the limit handling. The gap between the Veloster N and Civic Si is much greater per dollar than the gap between the N and the Type R.

Those things considered, The Veloster N is a better buy.

Well, it also has 30 HP less and is not as fast, (to 60, to 100, or 1/4 mile).

I don't know how you can put a price value per dollar on steering feel. It is of prime importance in a car that will be driven at higher speeds, and often tracked. Braking feel as well. Beyond the performance, there are other things missing in the Veloster, (heated seats, two rear doors for passengers...)

There is also a $6,000 gap between the Civic Type R and the Golf R. But unlike the Veloster, which offers less performance than the CTR for $6K less, the CTR offers more performance than the Golf R for $6K less.

There is no doubt that the Veloster N is a great value. But I would love to see Hyundai offer equal or more performance for less...instead of always always asking people to take less for less.

To clear up any inconsistencies in my take, let's just take Car and Driver's calcs. The Veloster really lost on braking feel, steering feel, and at the limit handling. The gap between the Veloster N and Civic Si is much greater per dollar than the gap between the N and the Type R.

Those things considered, The Veloster N is a better buy.

incorrect the gap is midway if you look at buy price. List price comparisons mean almost nothing here. the R/Si are not even discounted, and the velocster is discounted heavily(3k). SO actually the N is closer to the Si in price.

incorrect the gap is midway if you look at buy price. List price comparisons mean almost nothing here. the R/Si are not even discounted, and the velocster is discounted heavily(3k). SO actually the N is closer to the Si in price.

If the N is closer to the Si in "real world" pricing, that proves my point even more that the N is a better buy. In some cases, dealers are even marking up the Coupe Si, since there are so very few.

Well, it also has 30 HP less and is not as fast, (to 60, to 100, or 1/4 mile).

I don't know how you can put a price value per dollar on steering feel. It is of prime importance in a car that will be driven at higher speeds, and often tracked. Braking feel as well. Beyond the performance, there are other things missing in the Veloster, (heated seats, two rear doors for passengers...)

There is also a $6,000 gap between the Civic Type R and the Golf R. But unlike the Veloster, which offers less performance than the CTR for $6K less, the CTR offers more performance than the Golf R for $6K less.

There is no doubt that the Veloster N is a great value. But I would love to see Hyundai offer equal or more performance for less...instead of always always asking people to take less for less.

I understand your point of offering less for less. At least it's still better than the Si.

Of course you can still track a car that has no feel. I mean, people track BMWs, right?

As far as go-fast times, the N still hangs from a rolling start, and is not far off from the 1/4 mile despite being down in MPH and 30 HP.

The N basically slots btwn the Si and CTR (albeit the i30N would be the more direct competitor rather than the Veloster N), so no shame losing to the CTR (plus, the i30N has won its fair share of comparison tests with the CTR).

The N should be more of a direct competitor to the CTR when it gets the power upgrade to Hyundai's new 2.5T.

Even better yet, will be the rumored mid-ship N halo model powered by a 2.3T pushing 350 HP.

incorrect the gap is midway if you look at buy price. List price comparisons mean almost nothing here. the R/Si are not even discounted, and the velocster is discounted heavily(3k). SO actually the N is closer to the Si in price.

Pricing for the Type R is based on demand, not some corporate policy. (Honda dealers are discounting the Accord, as family sedans are not selling well.) Many dealers are not charging a premium for the CTR, (in New England and in Colorado for example.)

Dealers discount cars when they don't sell well and they can charge premiums when they cant keep them in stock.It's been going on with all brands for decades. Here's proof.

If the Veloster N is as good as it sounds, it will not be discounted...but it will be hard to keep in stock, too...and dealers will add a premium.

To clear up any inconsistencies in my take, let's just take Car and Driver's calcs. The Veloster really lost on braking feel, steering feel, and at the limit handling. The gap between the Veloster N and Civic Si is much greater per dollar than the gap between the N and the Type R.

Those things considered, The Veloster N is a better buy.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the gap between the Veloster N and Civic Si is much greater per dollar than the gap between the N and the Type R. I haven't seen any comparo on that.

This is why you start your base car with conservative styling if you are going to make a sportier model. If you start with someing the looks right out of anime, by the time you add the functional vents and wings it's going to look increidibly overwrought.

This is why you start your base car with conservative styling if you are going to make a sportier model. If you start with someing the looks right out of anime, by the time you add the functional vents and wings it's going to look increidibly overwrought.

Nailed it ahahahha! The base Civic hatch already hasbthose fake vents.......It's unlikely for Honda to remove those for the Type R.

To be fair, that wing is a big part of why this car can run the ring so quickly. It adds actual downforce and stability at speed, whereas most cars, including non-winged porsches experience lift at track speeds. I got my Type R about 2 months ago, and, coming from a track-driven DC5 Type S with full suspension, wilwood brakes, and a motor swap, I still suspect the Type R will beast my DC5 lap times

I think the price is closer than that. I thought the Hyundai was $29k + delivery + about $3k for the performance pack. Compared to the CTR at $36,595 and that should be only a $3600 difference. I could be wrong.

I think the price is closer than that. I thought the Hyundai was $29k + delivery + about $3k for the performance pack. Compared to the CTR at $36,595 and that should be only a $3600 difference. I could be wrong.

I think the price is closer than that. I thought the Hyundai was $29k + delivery + about $3k for the performance pack. Compared to the CTR at $36,595 and that should be only a $3600 difference. I could be wrong.

How did i know! It wasn't ever a challenge really being as the Veloster is not near the horsepower or capabilities of the civic type r nor did it have to breaking technology. I think it would be more appropriate to compare it to the cars that are a step or two behind the Civic, AKA Golf R or WRX STI it's just not fair for the veloster. I have to give civic credit until you have to afford one! With dealer markups they are worth Kia Stinger money, and if it was up to me, the Kia would be a lot more attractive to me. After 100mph the Kia is amazing! It can WASTE a STI because of its turbos that are a lot bigger than the WRX's. Funny, the Kia's traits remind me of a german car......oh wait, it can beat all of the german cars in its price range! Granted, the Civic is a technological breakthrough, but is a lottle ugly. If only the Veloster came with 2 more doors...and pocket the 5k base price/probably 10k with dealer markups. Also this is Hyundai's first stab at this segment, and if you forget the horrid dvd player infotainment, they did it a lot better than a few other brands first time around

The Stinger is a GT car and completely falls apart on track. It doesn't really make sense to compare it to sport compacts. Also, you are still looking at over $44k for a GT1 Stinger. You can get a CTR for right around $40k with markup now.

The Veloster also does have some pretty advanced tech - specifically adaptive dampers and an electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential. Even still, you are right. The Veloster was clearly made to slot between cars like the SI and CTR or the GTI and R. It is absolutely a win in my book. I just hope they get the brake issue sorted out. I'd love to trade my ST in for one, but brake inconsistencies would absolutely sap my confidence on track.

The Stinger is a GT car and completely falls apart on track. It doesn't really make sense to compare it to sport compacts. Also, you are still looking at over $44k for a GT1 Stinger. You can get a CTR for right around $40k with markup now.

Awesome, the only thing is, that not one time in my post did I say track. Second, i wasn't saying it had to be comparable to sport compacts, i just was thinking sport-ish cars around the 40-45k range. Third, most CTRs are going for above 40k, and finally, remember that the GT is not supposed to be some menacingly, wicked fast car, its literally 1 step up from the base model Stinger, and knowing Kia/Genesis/Hyundai, they will probably do something different with it coming up, being that it is the same as the G70 and last I'll leave on a different note to fulfill your wishes. for 40+K I would rather a low mile SS or 1LE-that would dust a civic on any race track if i couldn't have a Stinger GT

I think you are missing the point of the Veloster N or Civic Type R if you bring the Stinger into the discussion. The Stinger is a completely different type of car. People who buy the Veloster N or Civic Type R are probably more into driving fun and doing occasional track days. I track my Type R and it's fun to hassle those brand new Porsche 911s.

I think you are missing the point of the Veloster N or Civic Type R if you bring the Stinger into the discussion. The Stinger is a completely different type of car. People who buy the Veloster N or Civic Type R are probably more into driving fun and doing occasional track days. I track my Type R and it's fun to hassle those brand new Porsche 911s.

Great, glad you like it. As I stated, the stinger was just an example! Great that you hassle 911s, i just Stinger and apparently the discussion went ballistic with hate, and keep in mind, if its a race on the highway, you know whos winning

Great, glad you like it. As I stated, the stinger was just an example! Great that you hassle 911s, i just Stinger and apparently the discussion went ballistic with hate, and keep in mind, if its a race on the highway, you know whos winning

Please don’t advocate for racing on the highway. You’ll kill more people than just yourself.

Great, glad you like it. As I stated, the stinger was just an example! Great that you hassle 911s, i just Stinger and apparently the discussion went ballistic with hate, and keep in mind, if its a race on the highway, you know whos winning

Races on the highway? If you get it going fast enough to beat a Civic Type R, you're talking crazy speeds and it will end in tickets and/or accidents.

Great, glad you like it. As I stated, the stinger was just an example! Great that you hassle 911s, i just Stinger and apparently the discussion went ballistic with hate, and keep in mind, if its a race on the highway, you know whos winning

The point was that a hot hatch and a GT car are different animals and hard to really say which one is better. If you want luxury refinement, then Stinger GT gives you that. If you want fun to drive, the hot hatch is better.

And CTR vs the Stinger GT on the Autobahn? It's gonna be close. Both trap 108mph in the 1/4 mile:

The point was that a hot hatch and a GT car are different animals and hard to really say which one is better. If you want luxury refinement, then Stinger GT gives you that. If you want fun to drive, the hot hatch is better.

And CTR vs the Stinger GT on the Autobahn? It's gonna be close. Both trap 108mph in the 1/4 mile:

This was never a fair fight for the Veloster N for the simple fact that it was never meant to compete with the Type R. Really, the fact that they were compared at all tells you how good the N really is. That should put to rest any thought that the N isn't as good as the GTI.

This was never a fair fight for the Veloster N for the simple fact that it was never meant to compete with the Type R. Really, the fact that they were compared at all tells you how good the N really is. That should put to rest any thought that the N isn't as good as the GTI.

Everything you said is true. The issue is whether or not the average buyer could drive one everyday, which for most the answer is probably no and where the GTI and Civic Si become extremely alluring.

Geez I forgot the Si!....Duh! But it would be after the Golf GTI (at least in my mind).....The Focus ST somewhere between the GTI and Si, but it and the RS are going the way of the dinosaur, at least in the USA.

I think the base Veloster N would still be able to slightly outperform the GTI, a vehicle that basically has not changed in 4 years. BTW VW should do 2 things to the GTI to keep it competitive with the newer players: 1) More serious rubber options *AND* 2) 'Equate' the HP close to the TQ figure, as seen in the Audi A4 (252 HP). In this way, with the RS gone, the GTI could move to #5, right under the STI.

The main reason the GTI appeals to me is the boxy utility.....I mean, mattresses and kayaks on top, a bicycle and cabinets inside. The Veloster is smaller, the Focus is disappearing and Subaru removed the wagon WRX from the market. Plus, with VW there is always the Stage I or II from APR ;)

Yes, the $41k car IS more alluring than the $36k car and the $30k car.

Yes, perhaps a more expensive car is always more alluring.

But unlike the Hyundai, which offers less performance for $6K less, the Civic Type R offers more performance than the Golf R for $6K less. (It even beat the much more expensive Audi RS-3 and tied the much, much more expensive RS-5 - in the Lightning Lap.)

I'd take the Veloster over the Civic. It reminds of the VW Scirocco and I they styling is perfect. It announces to the world that is a hot hatch without screaming that it is like the Type R. The hot hatch segment is heating up and will get a lot more exciting once the Mazdaspeed 3 arrives hopefully with the 2.5L turbo from the Mazda 6 and none of that skyactiv X spark induced compression ignition nonsense. Like...there is a reason why the big guns haven't implemented that technology Mazda. Read between the lines.

Is it too much to ask for Honda to offer the Civic type R powertrain in something along the lines of the first gen TSX? And yes, I know you can get most of it in an Accord, but that car has grown WAY too big for my needs.

Bolt on the Insight's sheetmetal (hard points are all the same), the Civic EX-L's dash and leather seats, hold the spoilers, and slap an Acura badge on it. And behold the 2019 Integra Type-R (ILX Type-R, if you insist).

Honda could have a Audi S3, M-B A53 and BMW M240i competitor right now if they wanted. I find it hard to believe no on at Acura had the idea to use the new Civic underpinnings, which brings me to the conclusion that Honda just doesn't care about Acura.

Bolt on the Insight's sheetmetal (hard points are all the same), the Civic EX-L's dash and leather seats, hold the spoilers, and slap an Acura badge on it. And behold the 2019 Integra Type-R (ILX Type-R, if you insist).

It's an Acura, so it would be the Type-S. What should have happened was making Type S versions of the RSX based on the Civic coupe and TLX with AWD.

Honda could have a Audi S3, M-B A53 and BMW M240i competitor right now if they wanted. I find it hard to believe no on at Acura had the idea to use the new Civic underpinnings, which brings me to the conclusion that Honda just doesn't care about Acura.

You are always up on Hyundai development news, (wonder why.)

You should read about Acura development The car you described is on its way, (but they are no longer using Honda platforms.)

It's an Acura, so it would be the Type-S. What should have happened was making Type S versions of the RSX based on the Civic coupe and TLX with AWD.

I believe Acura leadership is all US-based these days, so yes, it's quite likely that the Honda mothership in Japan doesn't care that much about it (or maybe that's changed, just too recently for product cycles to reflect yet. I keep hearing big change is coming; I'll believe it when I see it).

Acura sold an Integra Type-R in limited quantities in the late '90s, so there's no historical reason they couldn't leverage the equity of the Type-R badge if they built a car that warranted it. There was also a Type-R variant of the Integra's successor, the RSX (just not sold here, and still badged an Integra in its home market), but Acura at least had the sense to badge our step-down model the Type-S. Once Acura (finally) adopts the current Civic platform for the ILX, their Si equivalent should become the Type-S and their Type-R variant, should they produce one, should bring the Type-R badge back to the brand.

Honda could have a Audi S3, M-B A53 and BMW M240i competitor right now if they wanted. I find it hard to believe no on at Acura had the idea to use the new Civic underpinnings, which brings me to the conclusion that Honda just doesn't care about Acura.

I'm just not a fan of the Civic's overdone appearance, both inside and out. I couldn't drive that around without taking a black sharpie at least to the inside. I'd chose the Veloster, better yet, I'd pick the Elantra GT N if it came to Canada.

Well, well, well...Hyundai is doing it, but it needs another step to tie the champ and yet another step to surpass it.....Maybe instead of a $30,000 Veloster N, with the Perf Pack, Hyundai needs a $35K version with 325 hp. Until then.....how would the Hyundai compare with the outgoing Ford Focus RS and Golf R?

This reminds me that new 2018 VW GTI Autos (yes, I know, the above cars are manuals) are selling right now for $22.5K at your nearest dealership. And while it doesn't have the grip nor stopping distance of the 2 above due to its rather puny and flimsy tires (either 225/40R-18 Hankook Ventos S1 Noble 2 all-season tires or Bridgestone Potenza S001 summer tires) compared to the Hyundai's Pirelli P Zero PZ4 in size 235/35R-19 and Honda's Continental SportContact 6 sized at 245/30ZR-20, a wheel/tire upgrade (after you sell the OEMs) would put it within spitting distance of #1 and #2 above. BTW the Hyundai's tires are almost a +1 and the Civic a +2 in up-sizing for the GTI.

Yes, the GTI is a bit slower than the Hyundai, but not by a lot. Actually the Hyundai and GTI have very similar torque figures. I wonder how the non-performance pack Veloster N at $28K would compare to the GTI.

There’s a much bigger after market for the GTI as well, so many people own them. You can gain massive power cheaply with the GTI as well, APR’s 91 octane tune gives it 305hp 371tq. APR has turbo kits where they’re running shy of 500hp on pump gas with the Golf R’s injectors and fuel pump for about 5k plus another 4-5k to rebuild the engine. The GTI has more in common with the mustang, it’s not inherently special but enough people own them that there’s a lot more possibilities. These cars are a little special, they present image, it’s about more than raw performance.

FYI going from 225 to 235 won’t make a noticeable difference, 10mm of tire isn’t an advantage when comparing two cars. The type R’s suspsion just kicks ass. I don’t run 235’s on my GTI anymore because if you can find them they’re usually a lot more expensive because it’s a less common size, rather just buy better 225’s.

Just think for a second about how well Honda’s would sell if they had a decent designer! I think half the comments in this chat say something along the lines of “I would buy one but it looks like... that.” FCA has some good designers. Ford has some guys doing a bang up job. Hell, everything that comes out of JLR and Aston Martin is pretty! Can’t Honda poach someone to fix this? I just saw the new Honda Passport and it makes me think I could even have a shot! After all, I can slap some wheels on a potato for the right price.

For their main product lines, maybe. But considering I've found it nearly impossible to find a CTR at even MSRP, I don't think Honda is too worried about its extreme styling scaring away customers.

The CTR sells because it performs. I have no gripes whatsoever about the engineering talent at Honda. They are stellar. The design department on the other hand... not so much. I think a perfect example is the Ridgeline. Many say it doesn’t sell because it is unibody but I say that is bs. The reason it doesn’t sell is that from the second you look at it you can tell it is a unibody, on a minivan platform no less. The front fascia looks as though it was a cut and paste from the Odyssey. Customers are dumb but they aren’t that dumb.

I'm interested to know...what does everyone think the engine would be if there was a Speed 3

I'd hope for a tuned 2.5 Turbo with about 265-275hp. Better breathing, and an altered ECU would make it pretty easy, and now that the new platform has AWD capabilities out of the gate, you can even keep the 310lb/ft of torque without significant torque steer.

I'd hope for a tuned 2.5 Turbo with about 265-275hp. Better breathing, and an altered ECU would make it pretty easy, and now that the new platform has AWD capabilities out of the gate, you can even keep the 310lb/ft of torque without significant torque steer.

Just a dream tho!

Thanks, i'm not an engine guru but that made sense and i hope that happens!

Thanks, i'm not an engine guru but that made sense and i hope that happens!

2.5T seems like a no-brainer. They've already engineered AWD, and the turbo 2.5 is already in all the mainstream models. Only question is if they'd commit the effort to doing all this and making it play nice with a manual when we all know a Speed3 would be lucky to break 5,000 sales annually.

Hoping more for a featherweight speed 3 using the new mx5 2.0. Just fwd, lsd, sub 2,500 lbs. That would be a fun car. Other extreme can happen too, 2.5T with AWD but I'm affraid it would loose the manual in that case and it goes a little away from the Mazda way of less is more sportscar wise

Just TRY to find a Type R in South Florida at the Sticker Price - all the Dealers have at least a $10,000 Markup added to that price - it is GREAT - but not for almost $50,000

Thankfully, we have this thing known as the internet. In this day and age, there is no need whatsoever to pay above sticker on any non-exotic car. GT350 or Focus RS in 2016, TRD Pro or Type R in 2017, Bullitt in 2018...somewhere in small town America there is a dealer that would be very, very happy to sell you a brand new car at MSRP. It's as easy as writing an email and gradually widening the net on that send button...

I'd be interested in a used Type R down the road but they will almost all most certainly be riced out like all performance oriented Civics and Teggys/RSXs. But that's the life of most hot hatch/factory performance compact type cars I guess. It's sad.

The type R already looks riced out. Why is it sad, because of the awful aesthetic choices or because you can’t find these untouched mechanically? Im sure you’ll find some that are virgin but they’ll probably cost a premium.

The type R already looks riced out. Why is it sad, because of the awful aesthetic choices or because you can’t find these untouched mechanically? Im sure you’ll find some that are virgin but they’ll probably cost a premium.

I'm not so sure. The Type R is expensive enough that I think most owners will end up keeping it mostly if not all stock. Also, RICE means race inspired cosmetic enhancements. The only thing RICE about the CTR is the fake vents in the bumpers. Everything else is functional and contributes to its performance on track. Rice <> Ugly Design.

The type R already looks riced out. Why is it sad, because of the awful aesthetic choices or because you can’t find these untouched mechanically? Im sure you’ll find some that are virgin but they’ll probably cost a premium.

I'm sorry you don't like the way the Civic looks and I suppose you're right there is occasionally the diamond in the rough. Still, cars like these don't last five years without somebody modifying something. GTIs, Sis, STs, Type S, etc... But you already know that, you just wanted to take a jab at the looks of the car from the factory. Please, continue talking about how ugly you think it is, yawn.

I'm not so sure. The Type R is expensive enough that I think most owners will end up keeping it mostly if not all stock. Also, RICE means race inspired cosmetic enhancements. The only thing RICE about the CTR is the fake vents in the bumpers. Everything else is functional and contributes to its performance on track. Rice <> Ugly Design.

I doubt it. Most will likely be modified but there will probably be more than a normal amount that aren't. We'll see.

I'm not so sure. The Type R is expensive enough that I think most owners will end up keeping it mostly if not all stock. Also, RICE means race inspired cosmetic enhancements. The only thing RICE about the CTR is the fake vents in the bumpers. Everything else is functional and contributes to its performance on track. Rice <> Ugly Design.

I agree. Based on reading the forums, we will see some Type Rs that get a tune and a lot of them will go -1 or -2 on the wheel sizing (it seems in practice, the 20" wheels are getting curbed or bent on potholes/construction and some folks are proactively moving to an 18" or 19", typically with a MPS4S) but I can't see many getting riced out at this price point.

What we will see is plenty of 2016+ Civic LXs with gaudy rear wings, red seat covers and fake Type R badges.

Tingwall- I wish just one reviewer would address the discrepancy in 1/4 mile mph that we’re seeing in the various Type R tests. As someone who used to drag race frequently I’ve noticed that the Type R has a variance of 3-5mph depending on the test. I’ve seen as low as 103mph and as high as 108mph (C&D first test I believe). I get different cars, gas, weather, drivers etc. but 5mph is a huge difference, likely 40-50hp. Plus, I know most outlets at least weather correct their results and mph isn’t as suceptible to different driver technique as the E/T. So, what gives? Is Honda slipping in ringers with mild ECU tunes? Maybe some Type R guys can chime in....

Tingwall- I wish just one reviewer would address the discrepancy in 1/4 mile mph that we’re seeing in the various Type R tests. As someone who used to drag race frequently I’ve noticed that the Type R has a variance of 3-5mph depending on the test. I’ve seen as low as 103mph and as high as 108mph (C&D first test I believe). I get different cars, gas, weather, drivers etc. but 5mph is a huge difference, likely 40-50hp. Plus, I know most outlets at least weather correct their results and mph isn’t as suceptible to different driver technique as the E/T. So, what gives? Is Honda slipping in ringers with mild ECU tunes? Maybe some Type R guys can chime in....

I think the 103mph one might have a slight issue or something. Over at the Civicx forum and companies that have these cars for developing parts, the stock R's usually trap at 106-109mph depending on elevation and weather. The slightly tuned ones (i.e. ECU reflash, downpipe, exhaust, intake, intercooler) are trapping 114-117mph with about 340-380whp.

I race a Focus ST with comparable performance mods to the Ford Performance parts, plus a good bit more in the chassis/brakes. The Veloster has a lot more tech. My ST has an open differential and traditional dampers where the Veloster with the performance pack has adaptive dampers and an electronically controlled LSD. Plus, my car weighs about 150 pounds more. I'd really expect a Veloster N with the performance pack to out perform my car on track.

TBH when i first started looking at cars, I was originally considering a Tesla Model 3 because I wanted a fun, low drama daily driver and I already have a crazy, loud track-prepped DC5 with insane camber, roll center adjuster, lightened brakes, motor swap. I remember laughing as I walked around the CTR the first time I saw it in a showroom...Then I drove it. And it all made sense to me. Made an offer that day. It was rejected so I walked out. Came back two days later and made a deal. Now I feel nothing but admiration when I walk up to that ridiculous(ly beautiful) looking car. Can't wait to take it to the track, the downforce/stability is very confidence inspiring.

Its clear that Type R is a better car here but we should all consider the fact that 8 speed wet dual clutch is coming for Veloster N. I know speed isn't everything but if Hyundai's brand new dual clutch is as good as other company's I think it can easily out speed Type R. (For GTi and R, its about 0.5 second difference.. ) So at this stage, Veloster N is only best hot hatch for 30k, but with dual clutch, I wonder whether it could be best hot hatch period.

reality is that 30 hp down same ~3000lb weight says that in the real world the velocster is not going to take out the R. the 107 mph trap of the R tells you it wins going away. But 7k is real purchase price SHOULD get you something just as a camaro SS 1LE is 7k more than this civic R and will clean its clock. the velocster N performance pack looks like a great bargain at 29-30k, just 3 k mor ethan an Si(which is down 70 hp/70 tq to the N pp).