If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Enjoy an ad free experience by logging in. Not a member yet? Register.

Not to start anything, but why not invest your talent in something that has a future, such as SVG?

There are at least 15 different implementations of permutations of SVG, while IE is the only VML renderer. Not to mention SVG 1.1 is a Proposed Recommendation (and SVG 1.0 is a Recommendation), and there is a SVG 1.2 Working Draft published.

Cross-platform non-Flash vector graphics, in a powerful, standardized form, and you're going to throw it all away for VML? I don't understand.

... academically, you;re absolutely right. But the current reality, like it or loath it, is that roughly 80% of users have native VML support with no plugins or any extra effort on their part. That's a significant metric; for now

Yep...I just read that IE5 and 6 account for more than 90% of users but I think Windows 95 up is needed to work. Vector graphics are here to stay whether it's VML or whatever. It's cool not to need a plugin for IE.

Zoobie or not Zoobie...That is the problem.<body onUnload="flush( ! )">

What about the 10% you are neglecting entirely? 10% of a bazillion people is still quite a lot. This certainly isn't helping the future of the web either, by tying your websites into one product exclusively (Windows and Internet Explorer).

Well, I think the point is that vector graphics one way or another will soon be implemented into all browsers. It's just that IE happens to be the most widely used and VML is supported now rather than waiting years.

As far as not including the 10%, I'm sure NS and Opera users are now quite used to sites made for IE not displaying or even functioning properly in their browsers.

I've just made some really wild crazy stuff with VML...It rocks! The future is now! Oh yeah...sorry...You can't see them...heh heh

Last edited by zoobie; 11-26-2002 at 01:07 AM.

Zoobie or not Zoobie...That is the problem.<body onUnload="flush( ! )">

Originally posted by zoobie and VML is supported now rather than waiting years.

SVG is supported now as well. That is no excuse.

The only rational argument one could possibly make for VML is that 80%+ of surfers can view it.

However, when faced against SVG, VML is inferior with respect to implementations, openness, standardization, and at least in my opinion, power. (SVG is *extremely* powerful because of input from the organizations who decided on the standard. It is robust, but simple. Even mobile devices profiles exist!).
That 80% argument becomes redundant when you have a 100% figure to contend with.

You are only cheating yourself and the people you are ignoring by resorting to VML over SVG. If you want vector graphics so badly, why not resort to Flash? I could live with that, but VML? yuck.

Hmm .. anyway. SVG is infinitely better than VML - no doubt about it. But ... please don't take offense because none is intended ... jason, your puritanical attidude to IE proprietary coding is a luxury which you would not be able to afford if you had to make a living doing this.

Originally posted by brothercake Hmm .. anyway. SVG is infinitely better than VML - no doubt about it. But ... please don't take offense because none is intended ... jason, your puritanical attidude to IE proprietary coding is a luxury which you would not be able to afford if you had to make a living doing this.

I'm sure most people have a website thats designed for a specific interest, and thus appeals to a certain group of people. If my website could appeal to a whopping 10% of internet users, I would probably die happy. According to recent stats: (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp)

If most people still use IE6 whats really the standard? SVG may be the future, but its not the now. If the avg person wants to see some kind of graph on your page, they would probably be pissed off with the 5mb download first. (I was).

It is harder to do some things in VML (Text manipulation), but the ability to copy and paste into the Office suite is an excellent bonus. Plus I can use VML in Outlook.

IE can render VML better than SVG. Plus it can render most things better as well. (Its just a shame its stuck in a proprietary technology mode.)

To sum it up. SVG holds alot of promise in the future, but right now it doesn't have too much appeal. Popularity defines the standard as I see it. Plus General appeal isn't usually the goal in a special interest website. So I'll stick with VML today, and see where SVG leads us.

Thats good news.
I can look at viable alternatives for some of my projects.
But regardless of the native support, until the popularity of Firefox gets a little greater than what it is (or the popularity of IE gets alot lower than 70%), VML will still be a major player in Vector graphics.

Thats good news.
I can look at viable alternatives for some of my projects.
But regardless of the native support, until the popularity of Firefox gets a little greater than what it is (or the popularity of IE gets alot lower than 70%), VML will still be a major player in Vector graphics.

Native support in Firefox and Opera, with plans for Safari. Full support in IE via plugin.

99.9% percent of browsers is better than IE-only (no VML plugins exist for other browsers).