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View Poll Results: Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by whysoserious

Papa Bull is trying to turn this into a simple question. The original issue was about people who took out loans on houses before the collapse, then found themselves underwater, and who then walked away from the loans. He said the idea was from a "typical liberal professor" (I'm not even sure if the guy was liberal but whatever), and that the borrowers who did so were "contemptible". I questioned whether he believed that from a business/free market perspective.

This is his attempt to simplify the issue into black/white, moral/immoral terms.

For some folks who feel emotional discomfort at fuzzy categories, the attempt to turn things into a black/white scenario is natural. The problem is that in most situations you will have a lot of edge cases. The difference between black and white is often rainbow, not grey in other words.

But the point is, people do have emotional limitations when it comes to categorization and it affects their moral processing.

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by tacomancer

For some folks who feel emotional discomfort at fuzzy categories, the attempt to turn things into a black/white scenario is natural. The problem is that in most situations you will have a lot of edge cases. The difference between black and white is often rainbow, not grey in other words.

But the point is, people do have emotional limitations when it comes to categorization and it affects their moral processing.

So are you of the opinion that it's DIFFERENT if it's a business that loans you the money because it's not a moral problem to screw THEM if you can. Is that it? If that's it, I'd say that in your slant, "other" probably means "liberal", don't it? Justabubba will be interested in that answer.

You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by Papa bull

Justabba...... you paying attention here?

ILOR.... Here's the question I asked: "If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it?"

It makes no difference at all whether it is a bank or an individual. It is no less dishonest to cheat a bank than it is to cheat your next door neighbor. To rationalize that you don't have to do what you agree to do as a condition for receiving money if it's a business instead of a person is precisely what I pointed out to Justabubba that I see frequently among liberals and it is a form of sociopathy.

If I borrow 10 dollars from you and tell you I will pay you back...I will do anything I can to repay you. I told you I would pay you back and I will.

A mortgage is a contract. The contract provides different responses for different scenarios. A strategic default is just that...a strategic business decisions. As I pointed out (I edited my post and added a link) businesses do it all the time.

As for it being a business instead of a person...I do think that morality can differ based on the rules/environment/persons you are dealing with. The business has a set of rules that everyone operates under. It's moral to follow the law, but there's no reason you should handicap yourself when making a large decision. The other party isn't operating from a moral compass and I don't know about you...but I'm never going to choose to be some moral martyr in that situation.

“Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by Papa bull

It is black and white. You borrow money in good faith. Is it immoral to welsh on the deal?

Justabubba.... you listenin' here, buddy?

I, of course, think morally speaking it is required to pay the debt back, but I don't suffer needing to defend from the juxtaposition argument that when it's done on a business level "it's just the free market".

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by Papa bull

So are you of the opinion that it's DIFFERENT if it's a business that loans you the money because it's not a moral problem to screw THEM if you can. Is that it? If that's it, I'd say that in your slant, "other" probably means "liberal", don't it? Justabubba will be interested in that answer.

Its a huge leap from not feeling a moral obligation to screwing someone if you can. There are plenty of good reasons to repay your loan from credit ratings to peace of mind to honoring a promise. But yes there is a large and not subtle difference between an individual and institution. Making a moral commitment to an institution which is a nameless, nonliving, and faceless entity is irrational. There is nothing on the otherwise to make the commitment to whereas making a commitment to a person means there is. When its an institution it becomes business and not personal commitment.

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by iliveonramen

If I borrow 10 dollars from you and tell you I will pay you back...I will do anything I can to repay you. I told you I would pay you back and I will.

A mortgage is a contract. The contract provides different responses for different scenarios. A strategic default is just that...a strategic business decisions. As I pointed out (I edited my post and added a link) businesses do it all the time.

As for it being a business instead of a person...I do think that morality can differ based on the rules/environment/persons you are dealing with. The business has a set of rules that everyone operates under. It's moral to follow the law, but there's no reason you should handicap yourself when making a large decision. The other party isn't offering from a moral compass and I don't know about you...but I'm never going to choose to be some moral martyr in that situation.

It's the same thing. You gave me a verbal contract. The business gave you a written contract. In both cases you promised to do something in order to get money. You promised to repay it. In both cases if you do not repay it, you are reneging on your deal, going back on your word and failing to do what you agreed to do in order to get that money. Now a bank's going to come after you for what they can to try to recoup some of their losses while I wouldn't do anything to you but who you did that to isn't relevant to the morality of it. The fact that you DID it is relevant to the morality of it.

You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Originally Posted by tacomancer

Its a huge leap from not feeling a moral obligation to screwing someone if you can. There are plenty of good reasons to repay your loan from credit ratings to peace of mind to honoring a promise. But yes there is a large and not subtle difference between an individual and institution. Making a moral commitment to an institution which is a nameless, nonliving, and faceless entity is irrational. There is nothing on the otherwise to make the commitment to whereas making a commitment to a person means there is.

If you don't repay the money you borrow, you're screwing the lender. And if you do it just because you can and because you benefit financially, then you're really splitting hairs trying to figure out some way to make it OK. It's tantamount to stealing and there's no way to pretend that if you can look at it JUSSSSSTTTT right, you can see "it's maybe kinda sorta different and maybe OK since it's not like a person or something and well, that whole black and white thing and...well, it just kinda aint the same ya know........"

But don't sweat it, there's a whole LOT of people that have the same moral challenge with it that you do. It seems to be a liberal thing.

You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.