We will have to agree to disagree. And the point is you have an opinion as to what the review (and apparently the product) should be. Others don't agree, including the person who reviewed it. The fact that you have a different opinion and viewpoint in no way diminishes the value of that review. You just don't like it. Part of that review just might have been a reflection that the reviewer thinks Tivo is missing the mark on where the industry and the market is going...... Hmmmmmm......

I can say the Mini is an improvement over the majority of cable operator provided whole-home experiences.

In your opinion. In one respect it is inferior. That is, the requirement to dedicate a (now non-recording) tuner from the DVR. We hope that will be corrected. If it is, then I would agree that the Mini is IMHO better. Not until then. And only (again) if one is willing to overlook the investment necessary to use the Mini, which is not required for the alternative.

In your opinion. In one respect it is inferior. That is, the requirement to dedicate a (now non-recording) tuner from the DVR. We hope that will be corrected. If it is, then I would agree that the Mini is IMHO better. Not until then. And only (again) if one is willing to overlook the investment necessary to use the Mini, which is not required for the alternative.

Does your cable provider offer a 4 tuner whole home DVR?

A TWC whole home DVR (only 2 tuners) and 2 STBs offers the same amount of tuners as a Premiere 4 and 2 Minis regardless how you setup tuner sharing. As far as I can remember everyone who has said what their cable provider provides has indicate they only have dual tuner whole home DVRs.

Regarding paying up front or monthly that is a personal preference. However with credit options and monthly or lifetime service options Tivo purchasers have choices, cable equipment renters do not.

A TWC whole home DVR (only 2 tuners) and 2 STBs offers the same amount of tuners as a Premiere 4 and 2 Minis regardless how you setup tuner sharing. As far as I can remember everyone who has said what their cable provider provides has indicate they only have dual tuner whole home DVRs.

Regarding paying up front or monthly that is a personal preference. However with credit options and monthly or lifetime service options Tivo purchasers have choices, cable equipment renters do not.

Supposedly Q1 of this year (which is just about ending) Cox was going to launch a 6-tuner, 2TB whole home DVR solution with capability for individual user profiles and viewing on mobile devices:http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-01/...eveals-kinks/#
Of course it's still vaporware as I haven't seen any other info on it but since the Satellite companies and U-verse already offer 4+ tuner solutions they have to try and keep pace.

A TWC whole home DVR (only 2 tuners) and 2 STBs offers the same amount of tuners as a Premiere 4 and 2 Minis regardless how you setup tuner sharing. As far as I can remember everyone who has said what their cable provider provides has indicate they only have dual tuner whole home DVRs.

Regarding paying up front or monthly that is a personal preference. However with credit options and monthly or lifetime service options Tivo purchasers have choices, cable equipment renters do not.

No, VZ does not at this time. You're quoting TWC and your contract, and I am aware of VZ and my contract as well as Comcast. As stated before, since at least a good deal of VZ customers have a first DVR free for life, then a second DVR can add 2 more tuners easily. Then, the STB's provide tuners in addition to access to content stored elsewhere.

Regarding payment, that IS a personal preference, however you are far too cavalier with that attitude. Many people have limited means or don't want to tie up credit cards with such payments. Further, when doing that you have the worst of both worlds. You are committed to Tivo, but still making monthly payments, at the same time as remaining responsible for repairs. It is NOT the same as a month to month, no obligation, capability to add, subtract, or simply eliminate that equipment at any time.

From a monthly service option, it is very very hard to find a measurement that allows Tivo to not be more expensive if you stay that way. Plus, you're STILL locked into a minimum of a one year obligation. So no matter what, with Tivo you are locked in. With MSO you are not. Period.

I find it interesting that so many are unwilling to recognize that not everyone is as fortunate as they are, or that not everyone values the Tivo relationship that much. Tivo - and MSO DVRs - consume disposable income. Many - if not MOST - people are not willing to have a long term commitment of such a size in this matter. For that, I assume I don't need to provide backup data, as the pure gross sales of Tivo compared to the combined DVR lease numbers of the MSOs, would kind of point in that direction, no?

$1,191 / $41.21 = 29 months to breakeven. If I keep my setup 4 years, I will save at least $783 using Tivo during that period. 5 years would equal $1,277. Those numbers assume no cable co. price increases on WHDVR service (yeah, right).

Some people wouldn't even need the MoCA adapter (I did because my P4 is not near an ethernet jack so I had to enable MoCA elsewhere). Even if my P4 completely failed to the point of being irreparable (unlikely), I could replace it with the monthly cost savings and still be ahead. And my analysis also gives no consideration to any market value of the P4 and Minis at the end of the usage period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmhjr

And actually, among other things, consider this.

You have less tuners than with Cox. You have only two recording tuners. One P4, two minis, either they can't watch live TV whatsoever (then you keep 4 recording tuners) only one can watch live TV (then you have 3 recording tuners) or both can independently watch live TV (then you have 2 recording tuners.

You also had to pay 100% up front.

Since Cox doesn't have a 4 tuner host, the number of tuners is the same

No, VZ does not at this time. You're quoting TWC and your contract, and I am aware of VZ and my contract as well as Comcast. As stated before, since at least a good deal of VZ customers have a first DVR free for life, then a second DVR can add 2 more tuners easily. Then, the STB's provide tuners in addition to access to content stored elsewhere.

Well several people with VZ here have posted they do not get a free DVR and a Person just posted he is getting one for 1 Yr. So I have no idea - frankly people with access to VZ are very lucky competition is a great thing but last I saw VZ had less than 5 million cable customers and has all but stop expanding so there are not that many lucky people compared to the 100 million plus house holds in the U.S.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmhjr

Regarding payment, that IS a personal preference, however you are far too cavalier with that attitude. Many people have limited means or don't want to tie up credit cards with such payments. Further, when doing that you have the worst of both worlds. You are committed to Tivo, but still making monthly payments, at the same time as remaining responsible for repairs. It is NOT the same as a month to month, no obligation, capability to add, subtract, or simply eliminate that equipment at any time.

Well commitments are not that unusually satellite is 2 years some cable companies require them now also to get the best deals, my phone company requires 1 year for their DSL or phone deals and charges a disconnect fee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmhjr

From a monthly service option, it is very very hard to find a measurement that allows Tivo to not be more expensive if you stay that way. Plus, you're STILL locked into a minimum of a one year obligation. So no matter what, with Tivo you are locked in. With MSO you are not. Period.

maybe you are maybe you are not depends on where you are and what is going on at the moment. Really does not matter to me as I would give up TV before I gave up a DVR so being able to turn one in would be of no value to me. The reality is most people are not giving up pay TV and if they value a DVR are not going to give that up either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmhjr

I find it interesting that so many are unwilling to recognize that not everyone is as fortunate as they are, or that not everyone values the Tivo relationship that much. Tivo - and MSO DVRs - consume disposable income. Many - if not MOST - people are not willing to have a long term commitment of such a size in this matter. For that, I assume I don't need to provide backup data, as the pure gross sales of Tivo compared to the combined DVR lease numbers of the MSOs, would kind of point in that direction, no?

My belief is that people who value DVRs are going to have a DVR for the long term. Of course not everyone values a DVR but the people I know with DVRs have no thought of giving them up so long term commitment or not they are going to pay for them long term.

Well several people with VZ here have posted they do not get a free DVR and a Person just posted he is getting one for 1 Yr. So I have no idea - frankly people with access to VZ are very lucky competition is a great thing but last I saw VZ had less than 5 million cable customers and has all but stop expanding so there are not that many lucky people compared to the 100 million plus house holds in the U.S.

And people here posted that they didn't pay the full $499 for lifetime when they didn't have a qualifying box, and others (according to Tivo) do. Don't understand the point. Things are different in different places . Up front costs remain the same no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atmuscarella

Well commitments are not that unusually satellite is 2 years some cable companies require them now also to get the best deals, my phone company requires 1 year for their DSL or phone deals and charges a disconnect fee.

Who cares of "commitments are not than unusual". The point is that the commitment for Tivo is pretty heavy. Up front investment PLUS service costs. And the alternatives don't. I'm not saying that makes Tivo terrible. I'm saying that regardless of "your" personal opinion, it is a factor, and one that is not in Tivos favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atmuscarella

maybe you are maybe you are not depends on where you are and what is going on at the moment. Really does not matter to me as I would give up TV before I gave up a DVR so being able to turn one in would be of no value to me. The reality is most people are not giving up pay TV and if they value a DVR are not going to give that up either.

And your reality is flawed. What you state is your opinion. Not reality. More people ARE giving up pay TV. Entertainment is fundamentally changing as we speak. The younger generations are choosing to give up home phones in favor of a single cell phone, pay cable in favor of online content, etc. It is even changing the face of advertisement. Who knows how it will end up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atmuscarella

My belief is that people who value DVRs are going to have a DVR for the long term. Of course not everyone values a DVR but the people I know with DVRs have no thought of giving them up so long term commitment or not they are going to pay for them long term.

And your belief is for you - not for the general public. Here are some interesting links that illustrate actual data, as opposed to the common viewpoints often shared on this site. We are NOT representative of the general marketplace. Also, note in much of this, the term "DVR" also includes game consoles with the ability to record entertainment content, and is NOT restricted to what we consider DVR (ie, Tivo or MSO DVR).

Since Cox doesn't have a 4 tuner host, the number of tuners is the same

The number of recording tuners, you are right. I misread the way you posted it. I had 3 time 2 for tuners. I'm assuming you mean one dual tuner box, and 3 STB, correct? That does change it. You do have the ability in that scenario to have more different channels displayed at one time, but that isn't likely a real advantage.

This review is from: TiVo TCDA92000 TiVo Mini (Electronics)
We're a 1 Tivo household, mainly because we've never been able to justify the cost of a second Tivo, since 95% of our Tivo viewing is on 1 TV. For so long, though, I've wished that we could watch recordings from the one Tivo on the other televisions in the home, and when Tivo announced plans for the Tivo Mini, I was ecstatic!

But then Tivo announced the ridiculous. $5.99 per month if you want the privilege of transferring records from one DVR, containing recordings that you ALREADY PAID A FEE TO RECORD. It's complete and utter nonsense. Tivo's pitch: "It's a great value, because it's cheaper than paying for 2 Tivos." While that may be true, if one were paying for a second or third Tivo, just so they could transfer recordings from one Tivo to the other, then they were getting ripped off to begin with. So basically, Tivo thinks you should be happy with paying $5.99 per month because you'll be getting ripped off less than you were before.

Their other excuse..."Well, it's not like we're the only ones doing this. Our competitors also charge a monthly fee for their media extenders." Again, it's a ridiculous comparison, because WITH THE COMPETITION, YOU'RE NOT SUBSCRIBING TO SOME MADE UP SERVICE. YOU'RE LEASING THE EQUIPMENT! If I pay a monthly fee for the Tivo Mini, and then all of a sudden the hardware dies, are they going to swap me equipment? I didn't think so.

The Tivo Mini cannot operate on its own. All it does is talk to other Tivos that you're ALREADY PAYING A FEE TO OPERATE. Any additional functionality beyond that are things we get for free with a Roku box.

I hate to be "that guy" that writes a review for a product they don't own, but I feel compelled to in this instance. Anyone willing to pay a monthly fee for this is either 1) a fool, or 2)aware that it's borderline theft but want it badly enough that they're willing to pay it anyway.

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Interesting to note that Amazon has been stocking/selling the Mini for a while now.

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I'm looking forward to seeing more members of TCF, in addition to Jason and myself, posting their actual reviews of the Mini.

This kind of reaction is what Tivo has to deal with everyday. You see it in a lot of AVS threads too, and even though this 'review' of something he didn't buy was more of a rant, the sentiment is not uncommon.

What's interesting is how people fail to compare Tivo's offering to what the cable company offers. At least with Tivo, you have the option to buy 'lifetime' and equipment. With the cable company, you pay to lease inferior equipment...forever.

What's interesting is how people fail to compare Tivo's offering to what the cable company offers. At least with Tivo, you have the option to buy 'lifetime' and equipment. With the cable company, you pay to lease inferior equipment...forever.

That why it's hard to compare, because with cable you rent the package so you get free in home service and equipment updates/replacements. TiVo has no way to offer that, for a TiVo customer if you want the newest stuff you must put the up the cost of Lifetime Service and be willing to sell the old TiVos on E-Bay, the longer you delay selling the lower the price is for the older TiVos, a Series 2 with Lifetime is now less that $100, when I upgraded to the TP I got about $350 for my Series 3s, when I upgraded to the TP-4 I got about $550 for my TPs (with 1Tb drives), it still cost me money each time and I had to go through the effort of selling and shipping the old TiVos, something one would not have to do with a MSOs equipment for a upgrade.
For me it is well worth the trouble, but for others it is not, no pat answer to the question of this thread, just peoples options on how they look at it and how much (and what programs) TV they (and their family) watch.

So less than stellar reviews of the Mini are "noise" and gushing reviews are "signal"? Classy. I've had lots of problems with my Minis. It is an underwhelming value proposition at this time.

No. I don't have a problem with your current 3-star review. I had a problem with the 1-star review complaining about the subscription fee. My Mini's have been pretty stable although I'm looking forward to DTA and hopefully configurable time-outs.

Given that DTA is being released for Series 5 but not Premiere, and no real word on DTA for anyone else, I would at this point bet that we will never see DTA for Premieres. I'd classify this in the same fashion as for fixing Amazon Prime, correcting long standing quality issues with Amazon instant download, etc. Tivo claimed to be "working on those" 2 yrs ago - and when you have issues and call, they still say they're "working on it".

I would hardly consider it a witch hunt. It's just a reflection of how Tivo has made decisions in the past. Very few "new" features end up cascading into older models. I totally understand this and cannot disagree with that approach - so long as they also make good on what they "insinuate" (using that word since Tivo so rarely actually "promises" anything. To me, a "promise" is more a scheduled release with anticipated GA.

They also said it was coming for the mini's "in the fall", but man if they back out of that I'm going to be a tad bit annoyed since I bought the LT on it thinking it was really worth it as a permanent solution going forward. I can live with 4T in the P4XL, but don't like losing one always to a mini in the den just to have a mini in the den.