Franck van der Heijden (°27/09/1967, Geldrop – The Netherlands) does not immediately enjoys recognition from the big public, but he provided with his work a huge contribute to the success of the Night of the Proms editions.Franck: arranger, composer and writer of music. The difference between the first two is not always clear: At arranging a piece of music is rewritten for another instrumental conduction than the original set of musicians; at conducting, he writes the pieces for a specific instrument of the orchestra.On the eve of his visit to the Katona twins in July 2009, we met and spoke in his garden, in the presence of Dorus, the house cat.

The studyBernard Derveaux: I was looking for information about you on the Internet, but the only thing I found was something at the Dutch Pop institute, and it even ends in 2004.

Franck van der Heijden: I know that there’s little to find about me, but with the arranging and composing there was always much work to do that I never found the time to make my own website; but that’s something I’m going to do shortly.

You were born in 1967 and started playing piano and guitar very early, with a lot of interest into Jazz.

I studied indeed guitar and composed at the Conservatory in Hilversum, but finally only finished composing. The study specially looking into the light music, and that was Jazz.

Your studies lasted from 1984 until 1990; weren’t you a good student?

No, that wasn’t it; I only started rather late. I was already 14 years old when I started to play guitar and it lasts another 1,5 years before I went to the conservatory. All of it went very fast.

So you learn classical guitar?

No, I immediately started with electric guitar.

I read that you found you guitar study quite dull, and therefore quickly switched to arranging and composing.

I quickly started to arrange and compose. I played guitar for only a year and was an excessive fanatics in it (laughs). The repertoire of the big band where I played at the music school (lots of difficult things: it was a bit out of my league), was out of date and had to be updated according to me and therefore I pushed myself to rewrite a music piece for them. That was my first work arranging music. Then I asked some advice about it from my father who was a music teacher, and then it went automatically.

Did you started you study of composition right away?

I was following the first preparation year for guitar at the conservatory and wanted to add arranging. But the guitar studies were specially focused on bebop and old-school jazz: Wes Montgomery, Charlie Parker, etc… At a certain point, it lost my interest because I wanted to taste something from every style; I wanted to do something with everything, composing things, fusion, also with classical music. The old styles are still fantastic to me but I longed for some more space.

So you were very active in music?

I arranged and composed intensively, a five year during study. Together with the preparation year for guitar, a total of six years. Furthermore I finished all sub courses in 2 instead of 3 years.

Beginning of a careerA few people you worked with in Belgium are not famous. Let’s start with the pop band Class; I only found that they didn’t have any commercial success.

That was my first band. We had a record deal and played music in the genre of Toto.

Lori Spee?

came in contact with here through a music studio in Heesen were I worked then. She was very famous in The Netherlands at the end of the 70’s and the beginning of the 80’s; I produced a cd for her in 1993-1994 and had some great hits.

You also worked with Anneke Grönloh. Who was she?

She was famous in The Netherlands in the 60’s with her hit ‘Brandend Zand’. I’ve recorded some singles with here, most of them for a good cause (e.g. for the worlds day of Aids).

And then you started the special project with Richard De Hoop.

At the end of 1993, Richard and I started a sort of cabaret for companies. De Hoop Entertainment is used for company presentations to power the message through music. We take different sides of teambuilding, with moods, passion on the job, etc.. From all of that, we make kind of a musical life.

At the website there are some nice movies from those ‘lectures’; I presume that the formula was a hit with companies.

Indeed. After 16 years that same formula still has a lot of success, a lot of that thanks to viva voce commercial of managers that take that formula from one company to another. We’re no gurus who think that the whole company can be changed in an hour. It’s more like cabaret; you hold up a mirror for the public. On a fun and playful way, you compare the natures of some people with musical instruments, which make the complete story of team building clear in a single blow.

It became seriousThen we get to Harry van Hoof who we know in Belgium for his cooperation with the Metropolitan Orchestra, as conductor and also as composer.

Through the same music studio I came in contact with Harry van Hoof. I did some studio productions for him at that time when he made a proposition for the introduction of the new BMW 5 series. The conductor for that was Michel Tilquin who played the trombone in the orchestra of Night of the Proms.

Is that how your cooperation with Night of the Proms began?

Yes, after Michel saw my arrangements, he pointed me to Night of the Proms and the less quality of the arrangements at that time. He found that my work was better and invited me to send some material to Robert Groslot and Jan Vereecke; then it went very fast. I was allowed to arrange four pieces that seemed to be quite ok. From the next year (1996), Robert Groslot allowed me to do all of it.

From then on you were indeed the only arranger of Night of the Proms.

In the period 1996-2003 I have arranged almost everything.

In 2003, Dominique Vanhaegenberg was added as arranger, also a trombone player, and in 2005 Geert Keysers, the pianist.The Metropolitan OrchestraI presume that you came in contact with the Metropolitan Orchestra through Harry van Hoof in 1996.

Harry had nothing to do with it; we worked a few times together in a collected orchestra, but from the BMW-project on I became his competition. At the entertainment studio De Otter & De Vries they figured out that it wasn’t Harry but me that did the project; the studio took care of e.g. presentations for cars brands and I had a lot of them, just like the Open Days at the opening of the Arena in Amsterdam.

How did you came in contact with the Metropolitan Orchestra?

In fact, that was through Jan Vereecke. Outside Night of the Proms he organized the Night of the entertainment in the spring, collaborated with the Dutch broadcast companies. Every time an organization works with the broadcast companies, The Metropolitan Orchestra is always involved. From 1996 on, I stared writing for The Metropolitan Orchestra; that collaborations went very smoothly and has expanded until today.

You often make some commercials for radio and TV: in 1999 the information clip for the introduction of the euro, in 2000 the orchestra composition for the jubilee edition of 75 years KRO, in 2002 the ‘leader’ at the television broadcast of the wedding of Alexander and Maxima.And in 2000 you produced the CD ‘Members Only’ of Lee Towers.

I’ve written a things for Lee Towers for his greatest ‘Legendary gala of the year’ edition in 2001 in Ahoy.

In the same year I arranged also at the performance of ‘Acda en De Munnik’ with The Metropolitan Orchestra. ‘Acda en De Munnik’ is very famous in The Netherlands, in the same class as Bløf; maybe a less famous band in Belgium but in The Netherlands a band on the same level as Marco Borsato.

Bløf is in Belgium quite famous.

It is a fantastic band. I made some specials for their performance with The Metropolitan Orchestra and on the radio. For an annual gala show I wrote an overture for Marco Borsato where the critics where enormous enthusiastic; it was an intro like I would do for Night of the Proms.

You wrote the arrangements for Freek De Jonge’s ‘Parlando’ in 2002 with The Metropolitan Orchestra, and in 2004 for the music for the movie ‘In Oranje’.

For ‘In Oranje’ I only did the orchestration, and also for ‘Erik of het groot insectenboek’.

And then something fun: the Seven-O-Party Houseband witch you started in 2008 with Rogier van Wegberg (bass guitar player at the editions) and Richard De Hoop.

Yes, that was indeed pure entertainment. We wanted that the 30+ people could party like the old days. It was fun but the project unfortunately stranded .

You’re a busy musical bee.

The last years I do something very special, namely music for horse dressage. It went famous about 10 years ago with Ankie Van Grunsven who won a golden medal on the Olympic Games and some first prices. For that, I work together with some else who figured it out. A horse has in fact a fixed rhythm and we write the music for the choreography witch is invented. Before, they used stuck some music on it that hadn’t always the perfect rhythm; now we wrote the music in function of the horse, on the rhythm his hits legs the ground. Wibi Soerjadi now writes for Ankie van Grunsven, but I did about ten of them by now (both compositions as arrangements) for whole around the world and some were even programmed for the Olympic Games in China.

I never heard anything from it before.

Yes, it’s almost a kind of music for a movie; and that kind of music is something I always liked to do but never had the chance, except while conducting an orchestra for the music for the ‘In Oranje’ movie.(the interview is interrupted for a phone call for the Christmas song of David Garrett)

David GarrettIn 2002 David Garrett played at Night of the Proms.

He was of course very young then; I wrote hardly anything for him but he was very fond of my style. He called me a few months later because he wanted to try something new; we hit the studios and recorded several things from house until hard rock. With that, he went shopping at his record studio and even got a record deal in 2005. His first CD I cooperated, was ‘Free’ (in some countries known as ‘Virtuoso’). Normally I would have produced it but I was not famous enough for the high shots in London who choose a more experienced producer; that did not ended that well. The second CD I did produce. David has a great success in the US and also in Germany, where he’s from.

In Köln, he had a sold out Köln Arena for his own edition (14 000 people) and that went on through the whole of Germany.

And that is only going to grow because in the US it is getting huge; they’re wild about him. At the phone call we discussed something we wanted for Christmas; it is going to be something totally new.

Night of the PromsDo you also write for ‘Symphonica rosso’?

No, that’s Tom Bakker. Jan and Jan have put down a concept where there is always the involvement of a symphonic orchestra. The basic of the concept is of course very old; Elton John already performed in the 70’s with a symphonic orchestra. So it’s not a new concept; ‘Music’ of John Miles was recorded with a symphonic orchestra, long before the idea of Night of the Proms was born.

And before that, in 1969, Concerto for Groupe and Orchestra of Deep Purple with the Royal Philharmonics Orchestra.

But with ‘Symphonica rosso’ it is not the same. At Night of the Proms it’s the concept that get different artist, even from different styles, both with classical as pop music; it can go all ways, even with music of movies, and with that there is one binding factor: the orchestra. That’s an element that was born later on and I think, in all modesty, it played a big role from 1995 on. Due to the arrangements, the orchestra’s role also grew. Before that, it were long notes and the vacuum cleaners sound of the strings; the orchestra did not gave any additional value wile now some arrangements are so symphonic that you would not want them without.

And is it always working?

Well, there were some special hard situations, like with James Brown because his funk was very difficult to combine with a symphonic orchestra. It all succeeded in the end and went ok, but of course his music had to be brought with a band. With all other music, the orchestra had an added value and was the binding factor for the complete show.

Do you only do pop classics or also classical pieces?

I’ve also did some classical works.

Did you do the medleys? The Bolero Shuffle, the Barok medley, etc…? The first medley, the Bolero Shuffle, I heard in the spring of 2004 in Charleroi, and I was glad to have a choir otherwise I would have fallen down, the arrangements was that beautiful.

It was very fun to do; there were a lot of different pieces in there that everyone would recognize. For the classical puritans it would have been a nightmare.

But that isn’t the purpose? You don’t go to the ‘Sportpaleis’ or Ahoy with 16 000 people to enjoy classical music like a classical theater? Unless in Germany of course, because there the public is mostly quiet during the classical pieces.

Yes, that’s true.

Have you arranged the Bolero also like it was brought in Charleroi 2009 and will be brought during the fall editions?

That’s the work of Dominique Vanhaegenberg. I arranged for example the Fire Bird and Pictures at an Exhibition in 2006.

Composing, intro’s and recognitionDo you still compose? The only composition I found of you was the Overture of 2007; or it was at least the only last I found with your name.

Well, there are of course the intro’s for all the artists since 1996; the first one I remember was for Paul Michiels. You could wonder if an intro like that can be counted as a composition since it are the theme’s of the artists.

My German colleague, Stephan, and I very much like long intro’s like with Status Quo, Mark King, UB40, etc…; we like the surprise effect. With Donna Summer the long introduction was perfect. An intro like that belongs to Night of the Proms but seems to falling out the last years.

I’m also an amateur for those intro’s. Status Quo for example in 1999: it looks like a classical piece is going to start but then it seems that a lot of theme’s of the Status Quo hits are inside the intro, and then Status Quo is coming on stage. My personal top was Toto (they were my heroes as well); I worked very hard on that; and the intro went on into Child’s Anthem (sings along). I know that intro’s like that are much appreciated by the audience, because it are moments that can give you the creeps, but I’m not always getting the chance to it.

You can say that with our regards to Jan tomorrow.

I will!

Are you bringing your own compositions into Night of the Proms? In Charleroi in 2009 I heard the Suite to dance with urban music.

Yes, that’s mine.

The music was good but the dancers did not had any additional value, because the audience in general was sitting lower than the stage; hopefully, the choreography looks better in large theaters like the ‘Sportpaleis’ of ‘Ahoy’.

I didn’t see it myself, but I know the pieces is returning in the fall editions. I will go and see it for sure. In 2006 I’ve also written the Overture.

Own contribution and the artistsRarely, you play with an orchestra. In the CD-book of the 2008 CD from Germany I found your name as guitar player of the Electric Band, but in the program book you’re not mentioned.

I was present during the recording of the CD but did not play during the editions. The CD is recorded in advance.

Your name is mentioned as arranger, but it’s not saying what you actually mean for Night of the Proms.

Oh, that’s an old pain. I know that my contribution is appreciated but I would like to see it mentioned more often. Earlier I wrote the Cinema Tune for Safri Duo; you can hear it on the first compilation DVD before the actual Played-A-Live. They forgot to mention my name as composer; however I’m mentioned as composer and arranger for the intro’s for the UB40 and Status Quo tracks. At the end credits of the compilations or at the television broadcasts you’ll never see my name; I’m only mentioned once in those 15 years.

The first name Jan suggested my for an interview however, was yours.

That’s nice to hear.

I read a statement from you in the program book of 2006: ‘This year I got a lot of freedom from all the artists. I can tear down the whole song if I like to rebuild it piece by piece. This way of working gives a lot of space for creativity. Some pieces ask for a less creative solution: they’re that good that you don’t have to change them’. Do you take creativity or are you getting it; are there artists who force a composition? The music of Tears For Fears for example was arranged and orchestrated beautifully, while 10CC in Germany (2008) was almost a complete copy of the original song.

Yes, that’s true, but for the music of 10CC there were a lot of thing in it that were perfect to orchestrate and where you don’t have to come up with something new. ‘Dreadlock Holiday’ is a very difficult song to perform completely different. And there is another element you have to take into account and that’s the time available to rehearse and discuss with the artists. When 10CC came to rehearse in Antwerp, everything had to be finished for Germany; they had about an hour rehearsal time. If I would have come up with something crazy, something they’d never done before, it would have meant a serious risk if they didn’t like it or it wouldn’t suite them.

But in his blog in 2008, Jan described the contacts with Live; Do they get and discuss before the first rehearsal the orchestral version? They hear your arrangements in advance?

Some artists hear it in advance, others don’t. If I’m ready with my stuff, I send them to the management but I have no guarantee that it ends up with the artist; it often gives some frustration. Jan for example is very good in coming up with the craziest circus acts, I work it out and make some memo’s and demo’s for everyone to hear; and then we notice at the rehearsal that the artists known nothing. He’s looking at us with a ‘what happens here?’ face and it turns out that none of the management or Jan or someone else passed it through. And the first person they’re looking at, is me.Having no direct contact with the artist is a big disadvantage. It can be extremely different: Cindy Lauper absolutely wanted to put the arrangement together; that wasn’t so easy but in the end her performance was magnificent. She was very impossible, even one of my worst nightmares.

So you’re insecure until you met the artist?

It depends on the artist; I always like having contact with the artist in advance, flying over there, meeting them, talking things through and letting them hear some examples. There is almost every time a big misunderstanding; in 99 % of the cases Jan sends a DVD with the impression of what Night of the Proms is, because it’s larger then a single show with an symphonic orchestra.In fact all artists expect that, because of the symphonic orchestra and the sitting audience, it will be quiet and they have to perform some ballads. That misunderstanding is always there; no one looks to the material that is being sent. So if we can go over there and show them what it really is, it always turns out they expected something else; and then they get it; we can provide more info, present some ideas and you feel the enthusiasm growing with the artists. Some artists are very insecure and need something to hold on: if they performed the song about thousand times like it is, they don’t want to change anything.

Witch freedom did you get? Because arranging is for about 85 % technical and the rest is creativity.

the best way to define arranging, is in the middle of composing and orchestrating. An arrangement can be the result for two guitars for example. You can make it as difficult as you like. I enjoy a very large freedom where Jan always wants to have his own contribution.

Has Jan some musical background?

Jan played guitar and also in a band (it could not have a name). We always enjoy him singing along at the rehearsals; it would make some nice bootlegs! (laughter). The annoying part is that Jan is very enthusiastic and wants to have his own contribution without having the knowledge. Sometimes he thinks far ahead and that can cause some delay. Like in the example from before, seems that everyone is informed of the concept or the idea, except those who really needs to know, both with the artists as with sound and so on. However, we cover it up with the veil of love.

Specific arrangingFor example, how long do you work at a number for Roxette for the fall editions? However, they are coming with their own band.

Well, Roxette exists from control freaks who like to work with their own arranger. From 2002 there are some things ready for them. But in general I can say that it can go really fast, although I’m no longer as fast as I used to be; some years ago I could write a whole Night of the Proms in three weeks. But now, I need about a day or two for each song, and that’s better.

Do you need to write some scores for arranging?

I do, luckily I got a whole system called Sibelius, a notation program, linked to a complicated system, where every single note is played by a sample and everything gets noted down. If I hadn’t got that, I couldn’t work that fast. With Sibelius I have a virtual score opened up with the whole orchestra inside. I start with the original score and preferable with the live versions; next I write a scheme of accords where I add the guide bass and drums, and next the other instruments.

Witch were the five artists you liked working with the most at Night of the Proms?

Of course I have good memories from Toto, that more with sentimental values from my youth. I think especially with Michael Mc Donald; I sat next to him with open mouth at the rehearsals when he sung ‘On My Own’ not as a duet but solo, and handled further in all modesty. Next I have good recollections to Oleta Adams (1996); I worked with here later on as well. It’s a special woman with a lot of charisma. In the light of the arrangements, so where I made something completely different, I really enjoyed working with Tears For Fears and Meat Loaf.

How was the collaboration with Sinéad O’Connor? The arrangement of Troy wasn’t easy? It became a very delicate orchestral arrangement of not so easy music.

Yes, but is was nothing more than an orchestration of the original where I added some extra’s to make it bigger. The crazy thing is that those arrangements are appreciated very much and got me very good critics; however I was not a big fan of Sinéad O’Connor. The way she brought it was fantastic. But ‘Troy’ was still ok, I had more troubles with ‘Dark I Am Yet Lovely’ that followed. For me, it was hell arranging that. The original is a Celtic piece with two accords guitar; it was one of heaviest arrangements I ever had to go through.

I though Jan choose the numbers of the artists and finalized the list when signing the contract.

We always do a proposition, at least concerning the hits, because there’s usually no time enough to try a lot of new things; the Night of the Proms is also based on a strong recognition in the music. But we also try to convince the artists to put their hits in a new jacket because I will be fun for them as well, for example with Tears For Fears: we were sitting at Roland Orzabal and he looked down that we choose the hits again, but he got very enthusiastic when I send him the demo’s.

It rocks!From your orchestrations and arrangements I got the feeling that, besides Toto, you’re also a fan of Led Zeppelin.

I took something of them along the way, yes, but in fact I’m a chameleon and so I feel myself at home in all styles. When I arrange for someone else, like Al Jarreau or Status Quo, two extremes, I try to look for the right music that fits the one and the other. There’s always a Franck Van der Heijden mark on it, and I can’t help it.

But it is needed to create music full of character.

right. The lead singer of Live gave me a compliment last year during an interview on the radio; he was only used to rock arrangement an admitted to be scared to work with the orchestra. The most people associate the orchestra with sweet made sounds and he said to be very impressed: ‘It rocks! The orchestra rocks!’ he said. And that’s maybe due to my background, because I understand the classical music but come from the direction of pop, jazz and rock. I can translate all of those things to the orchestra.

The same remark ‘It rocks! You guys rock!’ was also given by Silver, the singer of Nile Rodgers of Chic.

That had also to do with the orchestra of course. It is in fact a unique orchestra with a lot of young musicians who are used to play such music on a daily base and enjoy it. The sponsored orchestras have no message to such music and turn their head away.

Robert Groslot’s part, is it big?

He’s of course formed as a classical musician. I have had a large admiration for him when we did the show under the Eifel tower in Paris July the 14th 2008; everything had to be done there in inhumane conditions but he was still cool and controlled. You can rarely catch any mistakes with him.

Wish listWho else in on your wish list to get to Night of the Proms?

On my wish list there’s only one name who will never come: Billy Joel. I would have liked to see and hear him but he quit with pop music.

Didn’t he lost his voice?

Yes, but he was very intensively busy with classical music and has devoted himself to it. Unfortunately, it will not happen. I have some contacts that I will be working with Paul Mc Cartney in 2012, in a world tour, probably with Phil Collins AND David Garrett. Phil Collins has more or less agreed, but the agreement of Paul Mc Cartney has not come in yet. That could be very fun.

2009The program of 2009. Let us start with Toots Thielemans.

I’m not going to arrange the music of Toots Thielemans. His pianist, Steve Willaert, will do that. They often work together; he’s a very good arranger that also worked a lot for Will Tura. I would have liked to do it.

Will he be playing alone or also with other artists?

Probably yes, but we’re still working it out. The artists would be stupid not wanting to play with him.

We’re now halfway through July, and the first show is the end of October, So in about three months. If they’re still thinking about it now, isn’t it too late?

Oh, but they keep thinking about things until the last week!

Robert Groslot told me the rehearsals started a week before the first show. I suspect that there’s a huge cost involved.

Yes of course, but it all works as preparations for sound, lights and see if my side is ok. And there is no time to play a game during the rehearsals to change much in the scores; it happens that I’m in my hotel room in Antwerp writing some things, but then it’s more because they had a different shape in mind.

You have a connection with Within Temptation.

I did a lot of thing for them, like their latest album about 3 years ago witch was a huge success and a number 1 in the US, Germany, Denmark, … I wrote about half of the orchestrations for it. Afterwards they did that show with the Metropolitan Orchestra, Black Symphony.

Did you recommend them to Jan?

Yes, I did. Even before the Metropolitan Orchestra I had worked with them, but their management didn’t saw anything in Night of the Proms: on tour and busy schedule. Since they decided to take a break in 2009, it could happen with Sharon.

About Roxette we’ve already talked about, since the arrangements of 2002 still exists.

I’m going to rewrite the arrangement because I’m no longer happy with what their arrangers made of it then.

Tomorrow you’ll be meeting the Katona twins. Are they also going to bring classical pieces?

We discussed that they would bring about two Piazola pieces; I expect much of the Argentina music. We’ll discuss it further tomorrow.

On the website of Night of the Proms there’s a YouTube movie with their version of ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’. Will they be playing it as well?

I have no idea.

Were you already working on arrangements for Boy George?

No, I start working from September on. Starting earlier has no point because the program has to be final first.

You did know from the plans with Boy George?

I knew about it but that’s one of the problems of communication with Jan. I can better look every year on the website to the program to be sure who’s coming; that way I know it faster than through Jan. Sometimes I get an email from Jan with certain assignments, and know that way as well witch artists are contacted. Sometimes he asks me to fly along to the US without knowing which artist we will meet. But I think I will be brought up to speed by Jan tomorrow.

Is the James Bond Medley something you did?

No, that’s the work of Geert Keysers.

Last year there were no more medley’s, will they be dropped?

Often we made medleys to let all the hits come along and also to give them an added value because you never heard them that way before.

But it seems that the preference goes to the single version, not the maxi version.

There is a maximum time foreseen for each artist. Otherwise the program will be too long. The first show it always the longest one, about 15 to 30 minutes longer. We try to limit ourselves to around three numbers for each artist.

There are of course more artists then there used to be, like for example in Germany last year: Robin Gibb, Kim Wilde, Tears For Fears, 10 CC, Igudesman & Joo.

That’s indeed so. We have to take that into account.

Witch piece would you like to be performed or arrange, including movie music?

I would really like to bring the music from Batman but also from Bad Boys with Will Smith. The music of the latest music is not so popular but I think a live performance can have an enormous impact with the percussion, like I did a few years ago for Safri Duo.

Jan announced back then that he would give Fine Fleur a more active part on the stage like with Angels In Harlem Gospel Choir.

It’s very hard I think, because on stage are the members of Fine Fleur the only non-professionals. Besides the singing, you can’t ask them to give a performance with a choreography of for example West Side Story.

Thanks a lot for this conversation!

Jan and Jan are the fathers of Night of the Proms. Franck Van der Heijden is the dresser; he decides the sound color of Night of the Proms.Franck van der Heijden (°27/09/1967, Geldrop – The Netherlands) does not immediately enjoys recognition from the big public, but he provided with his work a huge contribute to the success of the Night of the Proms editions.Franck: arranger, composer and writer of music. The difference between the first two is not always clear: At arranging a piece of music is rewritten for another instrumental conduction than the original set of musicians; at conducting, he writes the pieces for a specific instrument of the orchestra.A comparison with the animal world rises: he’s both a chameleon as a centipede and therefore can handle a lot of different types of music styles. At the same time, he leaves a signature in his work.Jan Vereecke always describes Franck as a friendly guy, and I can confirm that now; friendly and both descent. On the eve of his visit to the Katona twins in July 2009, we met and spoke in his garden, in the presence of Dorus, the house cat.