Yeah, still in va, I get you. I'm just saying that I wouldn't want to be the one to have to explain to her why her expectations are not reasonable. It seems to me that the group has made it pretty clear that after the third time of hanging out at M&M's house they aren't going to do it again. Sure, no one came out and explicitly said why not, but really I find it pretty hard to believe that M&M don't know why. I'm guessing they know perfectly well that the evenings spent at their house are nothing like the normal group dynamic. They just have the attitude that if they are stuck at home using hushed tones and not cursing, well, then their friends should be there with them doing the same thing. (Misery loves company.) And if they want to sit around and talk about nothing but their child then their friends should be thrilled to listen with rapt interest.

I seriously doubt that it's going to come as a surprise to them why the group doesn't want to come over anymore. And when someone attempts to explain that to them, do you really think they will be receptive to it, even if it is handled completely civilly and politely? I just can't see that.

I think I am the only one who has no problem with the word "brat". I don't see Claire as calling the child a brat, as in what everyone else seems to be thinking, in that the child is a bad child.

I have a four year old granddaughter who I love dearly, and I call her "Bratella". But, she has never, ever been a brat. Well, for me at least, not her mommy! So, the nickname did not derive from being a bad kid, just my little cutie patootie. Actually, I think my mom came up with the nickname.

I saw it as Claire saying the word brat instead of kid, but not meaning bad child, just a child.

And le'ts be realistic here, going by the parents themselves and already how they are acting, who here who has posted doesn't think that this kid growing up is going to be one, big, spoiled diva??? (or, ok, a brat?).

Yeah, still in va, I get you. I'm just saying that I wouldn't want to be the one to have to explain to her why her expectations are not reasonable. It seems to me that the group has made it pretty clear that after the third time of hanging out at M&M's house they aren't going to do it again. Sure, no one came out and explicitly said why not, but really I find it pretty hard to believe that M&M don't know why. I'm guessing they know perfectly well that the evenings spent at their house are nothing like the normal group dynamic. They just have the attitude that if they are stuck at home using hushed tones and not cursing, well, then their friends should be there with them doing the same thing. (Misery loves company.) And if they want to sit around and talk about nothing but their child then their friends should be thrilled to listen with rapt interest.

I seriously doubt that it's going to come as a surprise to them why the group doesn't want to come over anymore. And when someone attempts to explain that to them, do you really think they will be receptive to it, even if it is handled completely civilly and politely? I just can't see that.

oh i don't think they're going to be receptive or civil at all. especially since Mary called Claire after the FB exchange, where apparently words were exchanged....forcefully. Mary wants what she wants, and she doesn't care if someone else wants something different. too bad, so sad. i wouldn't have the patience for that. at THIS time in my life, i would have told her straight out that i wasn't going to give up all of my fun times out because she couldn't (due to her parenting choices) go out anymore. i'm not sure i would have done that in my 20's.

I think everyone (or nearly everyone) is agreed that saying "popped out a brat" is rude. Arguing over it will probably get the thread locked. Claire was rude to say what she said, can we agree on that and move on?

It's not the fact that M&M have a child that's the problem; it's their attitude and demands that the group rearrange their meetings and go sit in their living room, and only talk quietly (and, IIRC, M&M drag the conversation back to their baby) that's the problem. I don't blame the group at all for not wanting to do that, especially as they've accommodated M&M three times while M&M have refused every invitation unless the get together takes place in their living room. Now Mary is complaining that people are refusing, well, I don't blame them.

M&M need to change their attitude, join in when they can, or find a group of friends who will accommodate their demands.

Agreed. Substituting dog, rabbit or hand puppet for baby makes no difference. M&M are trying to remake the group to suit them, their demands are unreasonable and the rest of the group object.

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If wisdom’s ways you wisely seek,Five things observe with care,To whom you speak,Of whom you speak,And how, and when, and where.Caroline Lake Ingalls

I think everyone (or nearly everyone) is agreed that saying "popped out a brat" is rude. Arguing over it will probably get the thread locked. Claire was rude to say what she said, can we agree on that and move on?

It's not the fact that M&M have a child that's the problem; it's their attitude and demands that the group rearrange their meetings and go sit in their living room, and only talk quietly (and, IIRC, M&M drag the conversation back to their baby) that's the problem. I don't blame the group at all for not wanting to do that, especially as they've accommodated M&M three times while M&M have refused every invitation unless the get together takes place in their living room. Now Mary is complaining that people are refusing, well, I don't blame them.

M&M need to change their attitude, join in when they can, or find a group of friends who will accommodate their demands.

Agreed. Substituting dog, rabbit or hand puppet for baby makes no difference. M&M are trying to remake the group to suit them, their demands are unreasonable and the rest of the group object.

I agree. I hardly think "brat" is a nasty, venomous, horrible word. I think its simply a low key casual way to refer to a child who's being bothersome... which pretty much does describe this kid. No its not the kid's fault he's getting in the way - he didn't ask to be born or ask to be parented as he is, but he is being put in the way of his parents socializing with this group.

In my family kids are rather universally and quite affectionately referred to as "goops" (a la Gelett Burgess). Now if you are familiar with The Goops, you know it is essentially a synonym for brat. But its also just a fun word to call a kid.

Yeah, still in va, I get you. I'm just saying that I wouldn't want to be the one to have to explain to her why her expectations are not reasonable. It seems to me that the group has made it pretty clear that after the third time of hanging out at M&M's house they aren't going to do it again. Sure, no one came out and explicitly said why not, but really I find it pretty hard to believe that M&M don't know why. I'm guessing they know perfectly well that the evenings spent at their house are nothing like the normal group dynamic. They just have the attitude that if they are stuck at home using hushed tones and not cursing, well, then their friends should be there with them doing the same thing. (Misery loves company.) And if they want to sit around and talk about nothing but their child then their friends should be thrilled to listen with rapt interest.

I seriously doubt that it's going to come as a surprise to them why the group doesn't want to come over anymore. And when someone attempts to explain that to them, do you really think they will be receptive to it, even if it is handled completely civilly and politely? I just can't see that.

oh i don't think they're going to be receptive or civil at all. especially since Mary called Claire after the FB exchange, where apparently words were exchanged....forcefully. Mary wants what she wants, and she doesn't care if someone else wants something different. too bad, so sad. i wouldn't have the patience for that. at THIS time in my life, i would have told her straight out that i wasn't going to give up all of my fun times out because she couldn't (due to her parenting choices) go out anymore. i'm not sure i would have done that in my 20's.

LOL, I'm the exact opposite. Back when I was in my 20s I would have expended time and effort trying to make Mary see my point of view and how her behavior was affecting everyone and blah blah blah. At this point in my life, I wouldn't waste my time. Experience has taught me these two things (among others): 1. People mostly know exactly what they are doing and choose to do it anyway2. Trying to convince someone to do the right thing when they are clearly set on doing the wrong thing is more frustrating than actually physically banging my head against a brick wall.

I'm pretty sure that even if someone were to put it to M&M as bluntly as you suggest, it would fall on deaf ears. Yeah, I've been down that road.

Yeah, still in va, I get you. I'm just saying that I wouldn't want to be the one to have to explain to her why her expectations are not reasonable. It seems to me that the group has made it pretty clear that after the third time of hanging out at M&M's house they aren't going to do it again. Sure, no one came out and explicitly said why not, but really I find it pretty hard to believe that M&M don't know why. I'm guessing they know perfectly well that the evenings spent at their house are nothing like the normal group dynamic. They just have the attitude that if they are stuck at home using hushed tones and not cursing, well, then their friends should be there with them doing the same thing. (Misery loves company.) And if they want to sit around and talk about nothing but their child then their friends should be thrilled to listen with rapt interest.

I seriously doubt that it's going to come as a surprise to them why the group doesn't want to come over anymore. And when someone attempts to explain that to them, do you really think they will be receptive to it, even if it is handled completely civilly and politely? I just can't see that.

I agree. Do you really need to explain to an adult that "let's all sit on the floor and whisper about my child" is not really an acceptable group party plan? Especially for a group that has always had rowdy parties and that you've spent the entire evening shushing because they can't follow the whisper rule? That's absurd. Mary lashed out at everyone else because she knows they don't want to do things her way, and she paid the price for it. You can't run around waving matches and kerosene and then be upset that a spark catches.

Add me in to the people who don't see "brat" as some heinously awful word too. I saw it in Claire's post as more of dismissive term, contradicting Mary's apparent belief that having a child means the world stops and revolves around you from now on.

"Brat" is not a nice word to describe a child to me. Sorry, but affectionately meant or whatever, it's just not. If anyone called my DS one then to say I wouldn't be happy is an understatement.

Back on topic. I've had people round whilst DS was asleep upstairs. MIL actually, last Christmas. We had wine and nibbles, talked, laughed and sang. Guess what? He slept through it. We've never talked more quietly because he was asleep. Consequently now we can Hoover whilst he is in bed and he sleeps through anything pretty.much. Point being if you tiptoe around sleeping babies they do demand silence to sleep. It's possible to have people around and have a great time with a child asleep upstairs. We've done it since with friends, too.

I don't get why these people choose to make things so awkward for themselves. If they cannot have people around, they could get a sitter and go out for the night. Sadly I think they are the sort of people who will look for a flaw in whatever advice is offered. I have no time for that. When they start losing friends maybe they might reconsider.

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Knowledge is knowing tomato is a fruit.Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet, but would Mark and Mary (and the group) be willing to compromise on the choice of activity every so often? I realise the OP said the group prefers hanging out on Friday and Saturday nights. But would everyone be open to say, a fun picnic in the park on a Sunday afternoon (perhaps with a nice bottle of wine, if your local by-laws allow it)? That way Mary's family can attend with their toddler, and the group can still hang out, and make noise, etc? This doesn't have to be every week, but once in awhile wouldn't hurt.

Has anyone asked Mary and Mark if they'd be willing to compromise and do a family-friendly activity outside their apartment, when Junior is awake (and hence, make it more palatable for the rest of the group)? If not, that's what I'd be suggesting if I was the OP.

Of course, Mary might say "Absolutely not! The only activity we want is for everyone to come to our apartment and have whispered conversations about the baby." But at least you know that you tried to find a compromise.

I think Mary and Mark need to grow up and move on. We are also the first pair of our late 20's/early 30's to have children and I would never expect a group of 20-somethings to re-arrange their lifestyle/activities around our toddler's strict 7pm bedtime or strict 11am nap time. We either get a babysitter, or leave early, or don't go at all. Our toddler is "high needs" in that he cannot cope well with routine change (and would have woken up with people visiting after bedtime) and so yes, our social lives revolve around him when there is no babysitter available - that is our choice.

I would never make such a snarky comment to my childless friends. I simply say, "Enjoy NYC/Mexico/the dance club!" and be done with it.

It would be nice if their friends could have an occasion get-together where the toddler could attend, but as a mother, I also understand that most childless people have zero interest in toddler-friendly activities. Seriously, M&M were childless as of less than two years ago, they should know this.

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet, but would Mark and Mary (and the group) be willing to compromise on the choice of activity every so often? I realise the OP said the group prefers hanging out on Friday and Saturday nights. But would everyone be open to say, a fun picnic in the park on a Sunday afternoon (perhaps with a nice bottle of wine, if your local by-laws allow it)? That way Mary's family can attend with their toddler, and the group can still hang out, and make noise, etc? This doesn't have to be every week, but once in awhile wouldn't hurt.

Has anyone asked Mary and Mark if they'd be willing to compromise and do a family-friendly activity outside their apartment, when Junior is awake (and hence, make it more palatable for the rest of the group)? If not, that's what I'd be suggesting if I was the OP.

Of course, Mary might say "Absolutely not! The only activity we want is for everyone to come to our apartment and have whispered conversations about the baby." But at least you know that you tried to find a compromise.

From Devix on 10/1 in #97:

I have to disagree. One of the main reasons this is such a problem is that all they do is take. We have already changed plans and pushed the events to their house on 3 separate occasions despite all the shushing and the cramped space. They have attended exactly 0 of the other events that weren't at their house and have complained about it.

"Brat" is not a nice word to describe a child to me. Sorry, but affectionately meant or whatever, it's just not. If anyone called my DS one then to say I wouldn't be happy is an understatement.

"Idiot" isn't a nice word to describe somebody either, but when I tell my DH, "You're an idiot" what I mean is "I love you."

Similarly when I tell my niece "You're such a brat" it also means "I love you". My sister has certainly never complained. It's all in the tone of voice.

I don't mean "I love you," but I don't think it's a hideous insult either. Neither one is a nice word, but it's not nearly the same thing as, say, calling a woman a c**t. I will tell my friends they're being an idiot if I think it's warranted or sometimes just because I'm mad at them. We get over it. I just don't see "brat" as the most hideous unforgiveable insult you can unleash on a child.