One of our members has written an article that offers the thesis that banning prayer in schools somehow led to a rash of school shootings. In fact, the author quotes God as saying "I am not allowed in schools." This is the All-Powerful diety speaking, mind you. If there is any sense to this article, full of "reap the whirlwind" it is that the shootings could have been prevented had not the All-Merciful wanted to send a message.

Usually I do not respond to this kind of non-sequitur (because my momma told me not to talk to crazy people) but this theory, that God causes or at least permits bad things to happen to punish people because America has become increasingly secular, requires a response.

First of all, the blogger that wrote the article showed a blatant disregard for the loss of life of children. I have linked to the original blog post and nowhere will you find any expression of sympathy for the death of children. I certainly realize that she was not the author of the original article, but she chose to reprint it. But feel free to point out any acknowledgement by the blogger of how much pain was caused by these shootings.

It is not an isolated blogger who says this type of absurdity. This same creed of hate is spewed by prominent evangelists such as Rev. Jerry Falwell, Rev. Pat Robertson, and of course, John Hagee.

On September 13, 2001, on the 700 Club, Falwell and Robertson explained the destruction of the World Trade Center as follows:

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

Not to be outdone, Pastor John Hagee explained Hurricane Katrina as follows: "New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God” because “there was to be
a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came.”

Think about this for a moment. Most of the kids that have been shot is schools were Christian. As far as I know, no one in the World Trade Center on September 11th had any particular affiliation with the ACLU or any abortion group. Most of the people who lost their lives as a result of Hurricane Katrina were not gay. God must have very, very bad aim if he makes these things happen.

Pastor Hagee acknowledges that it is only his perception, his vision of the world and of God that makes him see things this way. Why, I ask, would someone chose to worship a God that kills little children to express his disagreement?

In his latest remarks, Pastor Hagee has said that God allowed/caused the Holocaust to happen because he wanted the Jews to return to Israel. Somehow he manages to avoid the fact that Zionism predates the Holocaust by 60 years and was basically a movement of Secular Jews. (I know that some will disagree with me, because history, like science, is "just a theory.") When God wants to send a message he kills 6 million Jews, 3 million Russian Prisoners of War and another 2 million Slavs. Props to John McCain for finally saying that Hagee and his ilk are crazy.

(Note to God in case you are reading this. If you want ME to go somewhere, send me an email, okay?)

I know that you can find support for this kind of superstitious thinking in the Old Testament, that book that was written by men who lived 2500 years ago and thought that the world was flat and the Sun went around the Earth. God murders all the people in Sodom and Gommorrah, down to the littlest child. He sends bears to tear apart children because they make fun of a bald prophet. But why would anyone living in the modern world buy into this crap? Haven't we, you should excuse the expression, evolved a bit?

Secularism is to blame for all the ills of the world? Explain this. Europe in the early 14th Century was almost completely Christain. It was an age of unquestioned faith. In 1315 the Great Famine wipes out millions of European Christians. In 1347 the Black Death wipes out a third of Europe's population (while the people pray in churches.)

There is no rhyme or reason to the idea that God caused school shootings, or the World Trade Center attack, or Hurricane Katrina or the Holocaust in order to steer people toward or away from a particular way of thinking. In order to accept such an idea you have to embrace the idea of an Angry God who has only contempt for human life. And that is just plain sick.

Bravo, Larry. Tell andrew_ to make it so we can give Karma on OPs as well as on comments, because you deserve some.

my momma told me not to talk to crazy people

So did mine. I should follow her advice more often, because I fail at it so frequently here.

There is no rhyme or reason to the idea that God caused school shootings, or the World Trade Center attack, or Hurricane Katrina or the Holocaust in order to steer people toward or away from a particular way of thinking. In order to accept such an idea you have to embrace the idea of an Angry God who has only contempt for human life. And that is just plain sick.

Interesting video, stubbyfinger. Rather than saying that religion is the spring from which morality flows, let us say that religion provides the carrot and the stick to enforce moral belief. If you are "good" you go to Heaven; if you are "bad" you go to somewhere else. But most of the great religous leaders are considered great because they made people think about and reconsider their moral stance.

Jesus was known for his parables. Why a parable? Because you have to THINK about what it means.

Here is my favorite moral message from Rabbi Hillel, a man who taught around first century CE:

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

Thank you, SanChonino. No worries, my real life Karma is good enough. Good job, good kids and my teaching keeps me out of (or gets me into) trouble.

Not to be outdone, Pastor John Hagee explained Hurricane Katrina as follows: "New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God” because “there was to be
a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came.”

Jerusalem has homosexual parades now. And guess what, the same scum of the earth that evangelical Christians claim have been allowed by G-d to punish the US are also opposed to the homosexual parades in Jerusalem.

And, incidentally, that same scum is opposed to evangelical Christianity too (and, admittedly, because evangelical Christianity is on the good side of that equation).

I don't think that G-d punishes people for homosexuality. I can ask my rabbi, I suppose; but I understand G-d had said that he wouldn't do that any more.

Sodaiho,

Don't mix Catholics with the fundamentalists. Most catholics, especially and including the pope and the church leadership, are completely rational people that do not support the kind of "Christianity" those evangelicals support.

Catholicism does not want to replace science with religion in state schools (or church schools).

I know that you can find support for this kind of superstitious thinking in the Old Testament, that book that was written by men who lived 2500 years ago and thought that the world was flat and the Sun went around the Earth.

Can you show me anywhere in scripture that says the earth is flat? Or that the Sun went around the earth? Because there is NOT one instance anywhere in scriptue that I'm aware of where the writers said any such thing.

In fact it was the Christians who thought otherwise. I'm not talking Catholic institution. I'm talking Christians. Christiopher (light Bearer) Columbus knew from reading scripture that the earth was round.

You're Jewish right? So you would adhere to the OT correct? Have you ever read Deut 28? There are promises and there are blessings and they are conditional. You may want to read that to get a fuller understanding of where the Christians are coming from.

Isaiah wrote his book in about 740 BC (almost 3,000 years ago) and said this in Chapter 40:22:

"It is HE (God) that sits upon the CIRCLE of the earth and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in."

It's not that God is causing these things to happen. We live in a world of sin and sorrow and when we continue to walk away from God and his ways, we walk away from his hand of protection as well. It's us being the cause of our tribulations, not God. God allows this to happen as a consequence of our own actions.

You also forget something very important here. God is THE creator. WE are not. It's not about us. It's about Him.

I have seen so many articles and comments here from Christian fundamentalists who want to teach "intelligent design" in science class but then scream blasphemy when I explain to them what that would mean.

Science involves experiments. We can teach creationism or intelligent design in science class, IF either of them can be shown to work in an experiment. However, that would be blasphemy. Hence we would have to change science class (and remove the "science" part) in order to teach creationism.

That's what replacing science with religion is.

And don't tell me you haven't been advocating it.

Again, if you demonstrate that creationism works in an experiment, I am all for teaching it in science class. Same request applies as before: use a Semitic god so that I can more easily verify the experiment.

that's not true. I'm a fundie as you like to label and I know for a fact that we just want all the theories to be represented. The only time ID would really come up for the most part is when the subject of origins comes up. Then they can give out both ideas instead of just the molecule to man theory which is the evolutionary one.

Neither one can be replaced or reproduced in a Science class that's why they are both called theories. So why teach one and shut the door on the other?

that's not true. I'm a fundie as you like to label and I know for a fact that we just want all the theories to be represented.

Intelligent design and creationism are NOT theories. You want to change the definition of "theory" to include your religion and you want to change what science is to include ideas that cannot be verified experimentally.

I have made my own experiment here and simply told you what creationism, if it were a theory, would be subject to. I was told that doing so was blasphemy

How can it be science if testing is blasphemy?

Neither one can be replaced or reproduced in a Science class that's why they are both called theories. So why teach one and shut the door on the other?

You can show in an experiment that one species can evolve into two. But no creationist has ever shown how some god "creates" an animal in an experiment.

Where is the "Christian principle" of "honesty" now?

I am telling you: show me how a god (or any other creator) can create two species of fruit flies out of one species of fruit flies in an experiment and the discussion ends here and now with me supporting the teaching of creationism in science class alongside any other theory and with full explanations of all needed experiments.

Until then you are simply LYING when you claim that changing science to include your religion is not replacing science with religion.

You can show in an experiment that one species can evolve into two. But no creationist has ever shown how some god "creates" an animal in an experiment.

but you're comparing apples to oranges.

You're saying you want me to produce a god in an experiement right? Well I can't.

But then you compare it to making one species into two. Well I can show you that. My husband and I ended up with three more for a total of five after starting out with just two.

What you CAN'T show me is to make one species out of one to begin with with only molecules or dirt or slime. And then you have to show me how we got the dirt and slime to begin with. Can you make dirt out of nothing? How about slime? If we're going to talk beginnings, let's talk about both sides of beginnings.

You're not getting it. We HAVE THE SAME EVIDENCE on both sides. What we can't agree on is how it all started to begin with. Neither side can produce this evidence and it has to be taken on faith. Both sides.