Jill Merry and Adrian Burwell began dating last November. They got engaged in May. But the first time they kiss will be Aug. 16 — at the altar, in front of more than 600 people. For the couple, who met at a Southern Baptist evangelical church in Renton, not kissing, not hugging and not having sex before they are married is an avowal of purity.

"We have all the same emotions everyone else does. We just decided to put guidelines to it," said Merry, 26, of Bellevue. "We knew that if we starting touching, things were going to start happening."

While it is unknown how many of the almost 2.5 million couples who get married in the United States each year set limits on the physical aspect of their relationship, it's not uncommon in the 350-member community of Trinity Baptist Church.

Pastor Richard Seim said he does extensive premarital counseling, involving eight sessions with every couple, and talks with them explicitly about the limits they are setting.

The vast majority of couples he marries — as many as four out of five, he said — have committed to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings. About one-third kiss for the first time at the altar, he said. And when he gave his own daughter away at her wedding, he felt sure he was placing her hand into her husband-to-be's for the first time ever.

"We believe the Bible teaches that a person should remain sexually pure until marriage," said Seim, who, along with Burwell's father, will oversee next Saturday's wedding.

Whatever people's religious beliefs may be, the prenuptial path Merry and Burwell are taking certainly places them in a distinct minority.

The majority of Americans today are sexually active before they are married, and more than half of all couples live together before a first marriage, said Barbara Dafoe Whitehead, co-director of the National Marriage Project, a research organization at Rutgers University focusing on trends related to marriage.

Whitehead is aware of efforts to emphasize chastity before marriage, although she hadn't heard of couples who refrain from kissing.

"I don't think it's strong enough to say it's a full-fledged movement, but there is a backlash among certain religious groups to return to traditional forms of courtship," she said.

Religious couples tend to stay married more often than nonreligious couples, she added.

"But whether they are actually happier or whether refraining from physical contact (before the wedding) would strengthen a marriage, we wouldn't know empirically by any research," she said.

"I think a sort of sociological commonplace is 'like marries like.' And on those major, important issues, when people agree, that is a good sign. Perhaps their religious commitment and the fact they agree on these questions that have to do with sex and kissing means they are quite compatible and in sync with each other."

Merry and Burwell certainly feel their faith has led them to each other and a common lifestyle.

Although they had been attending the same church for several years, Burwell, 28, wrote Merry a letter in November asking if he could get to know her better. He admits he didn't have strong feelings for her at the time, but he felt drawn to her.

"I did have some emotion for her, not a lot," said Burwell, who owns a custom-cabinet business in Maple Valley. "But I knew deep down that this was the person God wanted me to have."

They agreed to date, and they both admit the first month and a half was something of an effort.

"God just opened our hearts and we really began to fall in love," said Merry, who wears a silver cross around her neck and has "JESUS" written on block letters on her key chain. "It was January of this year that everything just exploded and just changed. And we were both filled with a deep sense of love for each other."

Burwell proposed. Merry accepted. But they still didn't kiss.

"The only lady I've kissed is my mom," said Burwell, whose father is a pastor. "To me, the first kiss is one of the most precious gifts I can give away, and it's something I'll only give my wife."

Merry hasn't kissed anyone, either, mostly as a result of seeing friends getting in and out of relationships, she said.

"I knew I didn't want to date around and give different parts of my heart to different guys," she said. "I just decided I wanted to save my first kiss for my wedding day."

They do hold hands. And their fingers are often interlaced during their premarital sessions with their pastor, associate pastor and counselor. But that's where their physical contact ends.

"Today, it's like everything's backwards. You start on the physical level and then you get to know each other on a deeper, emotional level," said Merry. "We wanted to get to know each other on the emotional level first. And the physical is just the icing on the cake."

All rules are off once they are married and living in the Renton home they've bought, they said. They just need to get past the first kiss at the wedding.

"My only concern is that it's going to be so wonderful, one of us is going to faint," said Burwell.

What a wise, chaste couple. I only wish I'd been raised to have such values when I was younger. We are a filthy, unchaste society, so unfortunately we look at what this couple did as being odd, or even offensive - but it is we who are in the wrong.

What a wise, chaste couple. I only wish I'd been raised to have such values when I was younger. We are a filthy, unchaste society, so unfortunately we look at what this couple did as being odd, or even offensive - but it is we who are in the wrong.

Seraphim

Very good point. Unfortunately, being chaste is lost on many in today's age.

Seriously though. Chastity can be a tricky subject. I would say that most things we do are normal until they become passions. they become passions when they are taken out of their normal context. You can kiss someone's hand to show affection, so why does it have to be on the mouth? Just one of many questions that can be asked.

I think this is a perfect case of religious fanaticism at it's best. Maybe they were conforming to what their church or pastor wanted. It's fine to be chaste, but these people take it way too far. I couldn't fathom never kissing someone before I married them. Sounds very weird to say the least.

Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

I think this is a perfect case of religious fanaticism at it's best. Maybe they were conforming to what their church or pastor wanted. It's fine to be chaste, but these people take it way too far. I couldn't fathom never kissing someone before I married them. Sounds very weird to say the least.

If the couple agree that, because of their particular passions, this is the best way to remain sexually pure, then what's so weird about that?

^^Hey, whatever floats their boat I guess. I just have the feeling they were conforming to the very strict rules of the southern baptist. They will probably also never touch a lick of wine in their lives because it's 'evil'. I'm just seeing it for what it probably is. If they are free thinkers and did this on their on volition, then hey I give them major props.

Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

So why not find a good country that practices sharia law and go there? Surely you could find your utopian society there. Our society is the most pure and righteous in the history of the world, this did not come from legislating who can touch who where, how those who fail to observe prayer times should be punished, or how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. It is because we respect the dignity of the human person, allow each to practice the freedom endowed to them by their Creator, and afford each individual the right to live according to the dictates of his or her own conscience.

Quote

so unfortunately we look at what this couple did as being odd, or even offensive - but it is we who are in the wrong.

Odd, of course, it is clearly contrary to the societal norm; as for offensive, how so? They have lived their lives in accordance with the dictates of their conscience and they have forced their will on no one else. The only possible cause for offence is if they did this in response to pressure from their social group rather than by their own free will.

No matter how much I would object to this behaviour personally, my objections cannot reasonably extend beyond my personal behaviour. That they live their life as they believe proper and are not compelled to deny their will by some tyrannical law is only cause for celebration, as well as evidence of the greatness of the society which granted them this freedom.

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

^^Hey, whatever floats their boat I guess. I just have the feeling they were conforming to the very strict rules of the southern baptist. They will probably also never touch a lick of wine in their lives because it's 'evil'. I'm just seeing it for what it probably is. If they are free thinkers and did this on their on volition, then hey I give them major props.

Hear, hear...it would seem that in this instance, at least, we are in agreement.

Rather disturbing don't you think (me and you agreeing that is).

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Odd, yes. Offensive, no. Like GiC, if these two did this of their own free will and talked about it, as opposed to just supressing it all with no communication between them about this rather lofty goal, then good on them for living up to their promises to one another. If they did this to please other people and it wracked their consciences so much that they burned up inside about it (cf. 1 Cor 7:) then the whole practice was for naught other than show.

I am reminded of this short film on the Old Believers of Marion County, Oregon shot in 1981 which depicts a courtship of a young couple. I don't even think they made it all the way until the wedding w/o kissing one another, but they certainly didn't miss an opportunity to do so after the wedding!

If you've never seen it, take 30 minutes and watch it. It's a fascinating glimpse into the daily life of an Old Believer community, especially its marriage customs.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:32:40 AM by Schultz »

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Honestly, I am undecided about how to evaluate this. On the one hand, yes, it seems extreme. On the other hand, I, personally, happen to have most terrible recollections about dating and kissing the girls that I dated when I was 18-20. I was a virgin, I knew exactly nothing about sex, but I, like all nerds (from the movie, "Revenge of the Nerds" ) thought about it all the time, and kissing inflamed passions in me. Finally, at the ripe old age of 20, I yielded to these passions and to the horrible peer pressure, and had "sex" with a girl whom I barely knew, on a filthy narrow wooden bench in a sports camp. It lasted about two seconds, after which the girl said, "hmmm, I thought you were a man... but don't despair, maybe you will improve." And it neurotized me for good many years. In the former USSR, the attitude to sex was weird, schizophrenic, utterly puritanic and simultaneously very permissive (everyone accepted that men have sex outside of marriage all the time, and that all teenagers do "it" when parents look the other way, etc.).

Just finished the Old Believer documentary and it was really interesting. It totally changed my view of Old Believers. Hard to describe but they are joking, laughing, boisterous. I read a long interview about the Alaska Old Believers and they came off as grim and rigid. I guess Old Believers are not as uniform a group as I thought.

Does anyone know if the Oregon Old Believers in the film are priestless or have clergy?

Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

I think this is a perfect case of religious fanaticism at it's best. Maybe they were conforming to what their church or pastor wanted. It's fine to be chaste, but these people take it way too far. I couldn't fathom never kissing someone before I married them. Sounds very weird to say the least.

Nacho,

I am actually going to have to disagree with you on this one (I guess there is a first for everything), I think this is an outstanding example of piety and holiness. Our society today is oversexed, and it is sad this is looked at as being "weird" even amongst a lot of christians. I applaud the couple. What would Jesus, the Theotokos and the saints say about this couple?

With that said, I don't think it is wrong to kiss your woman before you get married, but if you can abstain from it, I think it would be the best choice of all. What an exciting wedding night!

Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!

^^You know OB, you are right....I guess I let my extreme cynicism about protestantism get the best of me; plus we need to continue our streak of being in perfect agreement in the years we have participated on this forum.....

Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

^^You know OB, you are right....I guess I let my extreme cynicism about protestantism get the best of me; plus we need to continue our streak of being in perfect agreement in the years we have participated on this forum.....

I knew I would get you to see the errors of your ways!

Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!

If you guys read Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina," there is an interesting fragment in the novel on this topic. Levin, the author's alter ego or prototype, a nobleman who wishes to lead a more pure life closer to the way peasants live, goes with his peasants to mow the grass. Among those who do the mowing, Levin notices a young couple, a boy of 19 or so, and a girl who is even younger. They stay together all the time, look and smile at each other very tenderly, and everybody pokes fun on them. Levin asks, what's the matter, and an older peasant says, "You know, "barin" ("Sir"), these two married about one and a half years ago, but they were so naive at that time, they did not quite know what to do with each other, you know... but now, it seems they just found out, and they are so happy." To Levin, this comes as a total shock. He has hard time believing that in his day and age (the late 1860-s - early 1870-s) there still remain couples who marry in the state of total innocence.

All rules are off once they are married and living in the Renton home they've bought, they said. They just need to get past the first kiss at the wedding.

Honestly, this is the only thing in the entire article that bothered me. And it is the only thing that bothers me about this "movement". No amount of not kissing before marriage transforms "all rules are off once they are married" into chastity. All one does is move from one extreme to another.

Logged

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

Honestly, this is the only thing in the entire article that bothered me. And it is the only thing that bothers me about this "movement". No amount of not kissing before marriage transforms "all rules are off once they are married" into chastity. All one does is move from one extreme to another.

Exactly great point Mor some of these baptists and evangelicals see the wedding day/ring as a "get out of sin free card" as opposed to a Holy sacrament that still holds to another form of chastity.

If you guys read Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina," there is an interesting fragment in the novel on this topic. Levin, the author's alter ego or prototype, a nobleman who wishes to lead a more pure life closer to the way peasants live, goes with his peasants to mow the grass. Among those who do the mowing, Levin notices a young couple, a boy of 19 or so, and a girl who is even younger. They stay together all the time, look and smile at each other very tenderly, and everybody pokes fun on them. Levin asks, what's the matter, and an older peasant says, "You know, "barin" ("Sir"), these two married about one and a half years ago, but they were so naive at that time, they did not quite know what to do with each other, you know... but now, it seems they just found out, and they are so happy." To Levin, this comes as a total shock. He has hard time believing that in his day and age (the late 1860-s - early 1870-s) there still remain couples who marry in the state of total innocence.

George,

It's hard to imagine that happening today. After all, even if a couple are without actual sexual experience, it is all around us. We hardly seem to have any films without sex scenes; no door closing and fading out; nothing really left to the imagination.

I have mixed feelings about such private pledges made public; but I suppose that is me. And that aside, I say all power to this young couple who have stuck by their principles and done what they consider to be the right thing.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

I don't think it is wrong to kiss your woman before you get married, but if you can abstain from it, I think it would be the best choice of all. What an exciting wedding night!

Kiss your woman? Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love. Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?

Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

Kiss your woman? Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love. Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?

LMAO ...good post.

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Kiss your woman? Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love. Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?

I follow your read here.

I do not mean to disagree..

But I liked that post.

The "kiss your woman" wording was strong and sincere in my mind. I was taken back to earlier times in my own life.

It was to me how you would word such a thought if you had never kissed a women yet and knowing that the first one you will kiss will be your only and last.

The "kiss your woman" wording was strong and sincere in my mind. I was taken back to earlier times in my own life.

It was to me how you would word such a thought if you had never kissed a women yet and knowing that the first one you will kiss will be your only and last.

Actually, the phrase "your woman" is considered offensive to the woman in question, which is what prompted Tina's response. It essentially dehumanizes her by changing her defining characteristic from her relationship to you (such as "your wife") to the biological hardware she comes equipped with.

Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Actually, the phrase "your woman" is considered offensive to the woman in question, which is what prompted Tina's response. It essentially dehumanizes her by changing her defining characteristic from her relationship to you (such as "your wife") to the biological hardware she comes equipped with.

YEAH what Veniamin said.

Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

Actually, the phrase "your woman" is considered offensive to the woman in question, which is what prompted Tina's response. It essentially dehumanizes her by changing her defining characteristic from her relationship to you (such as "your wife") to the biological hardware she comes equipped with.

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.

I imagine there is no such dilemma for those whose languages use the same words for husband and wife as they do for man and woman.

Lord have mercy on all us - and vive la difference!

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.

Congratulations on how enlightened you are. That doesn't change the fact that such usage does have demeaning connotations for most American English-speakers.

Quote

I imagine there is no such dilemma for those whose languages use the same words for husband and wife as they do for man and woman.

However, English isn't one of those languages and it's the one this board is using and the one in which the original quote was made.

Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.

I agree with you, but I'm not going to touch this since it would drag this thread way off topic.

Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

When my wife and I had our first married kiss, it was a simple loving and warm kiss for those there to know we "sealed " our vows with a kiss. No french kiss or otherwise. We still, 35 years later prefer that simple expression of our love to other ways of kissing.

Congratulations on how enlightened you are. That doesn't change the fact that such usage does have demeaning connotations for most American English-speakers.

Mullet and houn'dawg jokes aside, many rural Ozarkians use this type of language very affectionately. This may be stretching things a bit, but it seems to me that when you're married, the man 'belongs' to his wife and the wife 'belongs' to the husband ergo 'my man' and 'my woman'. Being a native Ozarkian, I know tons of married folks who use these terms and not a single one of them see their spouses as property.

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.

I imagine there is no such dilemma for those whose languages use the same words for husband and wife as they do for man and woman.

Lord have mercy on all us - and vive la difference!

I understand TinaG perfectly.

To say "your women" or "my woman" is a "man thing". The woman on the receiving end must understand the man she is with or appreciate the endearing sweet quality of this phrase when said by someone in certain context.

True.. Some men use such phrases in a unflattering way by context mostly.

Sometimes some women are just highly insecure about certain descriptions. Fair enough.

I refer to my wife for 13 years as "my girl" and shes is f a r from a girl. I also call her "little girl".

I say these phrases because I see her as I saw her from the beginning. Sometimes I see her in suttle ways how she 'may' have been as a girl. Mainly I think she is cute!

I do not see her as 'my old lady' or like my friend refers to his wife "ma". ...Yuk!