Summerset is utterly disgusting!

Fourth Era thalmor are foolish noobs, ready to be destroyed by even the lowest dragonborn out there. No dunmer, nor any other culture probably likes them (nor should, as I see it). Except those weird fanboys all mad for altmers, even when they are on a religion erradication quest.

We also don’t need our beliefs as an excuse to torture and kill; entertainment value is justification enough

Nah, Dunmer think it too. They get their butts kicked by Argonians in the future

The argonians launched an invasion as soon as red mountain erupted and a meteor combined laid waste to the mainland of Morrowind.

Then the argonians went a bit to far and house Redoran launched a counter Assault and kicked the argonian asses

Vivec and sotha sil are still alive.

Albeit Sotha Sil is technically alive somewhere else, probably under torture by a daedric Prince since he was a Demi-god with tons of power. He may even still be in CwC in skyrims timeline in some machine form.

And Vivec was able to achieve "Chim" So his power and whereabouts are now a metaphysical reality or something beyond.

We also don’t need our beliefs as an excuse to torture and kill; entertainment value is justification enough

Nah, Dunmer think it too. They get their butts kicked by Argonians in the future

The argonians launched an invasion as soon as red mountain erupted and a meteor combined laid waste to the mainland of Morrowind.

Then the argonians went a bit to far and house Redoran launched a counter Assault and kicked the argonian asses

Vivec and sotha sil are still alive.

Albeit Sotha Sil is technically alive somewhere else, probably under torture by a daedric Prince since he was a Demi-god with tons of power. He may even still be in CwC in skyrims timeline in some machine form.

And Vivec was able to achieve "Chim" So his power and whereabouts are now a metaphysical reality or something beyond.

Almalexia certainly thinks she murdered Sotha Sil in Tribunal. My Nerevarine also had the option to murder and soul trap Vivec, so theres potential certainty for what happened to him there too.

Regardless I do think the Altmer are more advanced than the other races on a purely magical and technical level

In what way, exactly? On Artaeum, maybe, but when it comes to Summerset as a nation: what about anything we've seen so far makes them seen advanced at all? Everything they can do the Telvanni can apparently do just as well, or so it seems. On a technical level, they look to be on par with Imperials.

Edited by psychotrip on April 7, 2018 3:09PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

We also don’t need our beliefs as an excuse to torture and kill; entertainment value is justification enough

Nah, Dunmer think it too. They get their butts kicked by Argonians in the future

The argonians launched an invasion as soon as red mountain erupted and a meteor combined laid waste to the mainland of Morrowind.

Then the argonians went a bit to far and house Redoran launched a counter Assault and kicked the argonian asses

Vivec and sotha sil are still alive.

Albeit Sotha Sil is technically alive somewhere else, probably under torture by a daedric Prince since he was a Demi-god with tons of power. He may even still be in CwC in skyrims timeline in some machine form.

And Vivec was able to achieve "Chim" So his power and whereabouts are now a metaphysical reality or something beyond.

Almalexia certainly thinks she murdered Sotha Sil in Tribunal. My Nerevarine also had the option to murder and soul trap Vivec, so theres potential certainty for what happened to him there too.

Sotha sil is definitely an "if" one but I think he already planned for almalexia's murder attempt on him. This was actually shown in CWC's DLC when Sotha Sil's Program of AIOS said potential threats included "numidium, almalexia, and erasure"

And this is like 3 thousand years before Almalexia went to kill him. So my thought is he planned his death to live on.

As for Vivec, the ingame kill of him isn't cannon, that was just an ingame function overlooked by dev's.

There is actual Cannon stating he Achieved chim so he is definitely out there

Regardless I do think the Altmer are more advanced than the other races on a purely magical and technical level

In what way, exactly? On Artaeum, maybe, but when it comes to Summerset as a nation: what about anything we've seen so far makes them seen advanced at all? Everything they can do the Telvanni can apparently do just as well, or so it seems. On a technical level, they look to be on par with Imperials.

Their magic and structure have always been greater. That is what I was refering too. Not that they are superior or better but their actual Magics are of a different level than the rest of Tamriel. Thats why it took the power of the Numidium by Talos to actually beat them. Otherwise he never would have been able to fight them effectively.

The Telvanni are less numerous but definitely On par as far as pure destructive magic goes. Dyvath Fyr probably being the most powerful mortal Mage (not counting the Tribunal Demi-Gods) in all history.

But the Telvani are to reclusive and have no organizational structure as a House. If they actually worked together the Dunmer would be stronger than multiple nations combined. But alas this is their culture

As far as technical level, the Imperials don't have anything impressive. The Imperial City is the only reason they look to have impressive structure. But that City is all Ayleid power built into the stones and is all Ayleid construction and design. The imperials just happen to be sitting in it.

Regardless I do think the Altmer are more advanced than the other races on a purely magical and technical level

In what way, exactly? On Artaeum, maybe, but when it comes to Summerset as a nation: what about anything we've seen so far makes them seen advanced at all? Everything they can do the Telvanni can apparently do just as well, or so it seems. On a technical level, they look to be on par with Imperials.

Their magic and structure have always been greater. That is what I was refering too. Not that they are superior or better but their actual Magics are of a different level than the rest of Tamriel. Thats why it took the power of the Numidium by Talos to actually beat them. Otherwise he never would have been able to fight them effectively.

The Telvanni are less numerous but definitely On par as far as pure destructive magic goes. Dyvath Fyr probably being the most powerful mortal Mage (not counting the Tribunal Demi-Gods) in all history.

But the Telvani are to reclusive and have no organizational structure as a House. If they actually worked together the Dunmer would be stronger than multiple nations combined. But alas this is their culture

As far as technical level, the Imperials don't have anything impressive. The Imperial City is the only reason they look to have impressive structure. But that City is all Ayleid power built into the stones and is all Ayleid construction and design. The imperials just happen to be sitting in it.

Almost everything you're saying would have been correct in the pre-ESO days.

But ESO revealed to us that the high elf civilization is decidedly non-magical, at least not nearly to the degree many of us expected. In general, they live their lives almost exactly like normal, medieval fantasy humans. No advanced magical technology improving their daily lives, no zany architecture, no weird science like reverse engineered dwemer automatons or literal clones like the Telvanni have (Divayth Fyr wasn't the only one cloning people, as Dram can attest).

The Altmer can't even build cities the way Dunmer can. They seem limited to flat, gray stone blocks while dunmer stonecutters can mold massive, town-sized pyramids into flowing curves with a perfect irrigation-system. Everything we've seen so far suggests the Altmer are far, far less advanced.

As of now there's really no explanation why it took Numidium to conquer Summerset. What, exactly, were the Imperials so afraid of? They had already conquered the rest of the world.

As for the Imperial City, only White-Gold and the surrounding walls were made by the Ayleids. And even then, ayleid architecture is completely visually inconsistent with what we've seen of Summerset. So we're still left with medieval castles and towers for both the Imperials, Bretons, and Altmer. Only difference is they're a bit taller. Not very "advanced" after all.

Edited by psychotrip on April 7, 2018 6:26PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

Alarra: So kind of related to that, there's been a lot of talk among fans about how what we've seen of it doesn't really match, necessarily, how it's been described - like Alinor's buildings looking like insect wings? Is that a matter of just, it's hard to reflect that in the gameplay, or was that a deliberate design choice, or is it the unreliable narrator?

Matt Firor: Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Well there you have it folks. Altmer are no more advanced than anyone else.

Yet the telvanni still get crazy mushroom towers, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons etc. So yeah, the altmer have nothing. Not even magic. They didn’t even build the psijiic’s tower, according to recently revealed details.

Edited by psychotrip on April 10, 2018 1:56PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

I like where this is going. Telvanni are great, altmer are lame. It seems we all agree here

There's no doubt the Telvanni are some impressive folks.

Dyvath Fyr is rightly regarded as probably the most powerful. And he lives even longer than the Altmer do.

I like how even the Imperials backed off from trying to do an invasion of Morrowind during Talo's time. The fact a DragonBorn and his armies looked at it and said "ehhh, lets try and add them with deals instead" was pretty great lol.

Then they used that deal to get Numidium from the Dunmer. And of course using a giant mechanical God was going to stomp ***. Dragon born or not, that was a low move.

Talos is the one who created the 4th era Thalmor with his bloodthirtsy desire to conquer everyone and created the hatred and fear that made the Thalmor hate them. Thats why the Aldmeri Dominion beat everyone in skyrim

The Varlines are cannon so they have to have an explanation for the Varlines

For those unfamiliar with the varlines, its the Altmers version of Power Plants and electrical
lines. Just pure magic lines that power their cities, defenses, and lights.

So if they are saying that, then the Varlines will have to have some kind of explanation

No mention of the varlines so far. They’re not canon anymore, regardless of what Schick said during that old interview. Altmer have nothing to distinguish them. They’re typical, generic high elves. Nothing more.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

The Varlines are cannon so they have to have an explanation for the Varlines

For those unfamiliar with the varlines, its the Altmers version of Power Plants and electrical
lines. Just pure magic lines that power their cities, defenses, and lights.

So if they are saying that, then the Varlines will have to have some kind of explanation

No mention of the varlines so far. They’re not canon anymore, regardless of what Schick said during that old interview. Altmer have nothing to distinguish them. They’re typical, generic high elves. Nothing more.

Yes the varlins ARE cannon, they are written formal Cannon and they have to have an explanation of them.

It’s dead now. No varlines have been seen in the dlc. They retconned their own damn lore, even after saying it was canon. Unless you know something I don’t about the expansion? In which case i’ll proudly consider myself wrong.

Edited by psychotrip on April 11, 2018 12:12AM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It’s dead now. No varlines have been seen in the dlc. They retconned their own damn lore, even after saying it was canon. Unless you know something I don’t about the expansion? In which case i’ll proudly consider myself wrong.

All I'm saying is that the Varlines are legitimate Lore that is official cannon in written Developer text.

That was my only point to our conversation we were having about Altmer being (magicaly and technicaly) more advanced than the other races.

Until the Chapter is released we won't know if the varlines are actually in there or not. Or at being built/constructed. Similar to how they nearly ruined Vivec City by making it an incomplete construction zone with barely comparable parts to it like the Original Morrowind nearly 3 thousand years in the future.

Dont even get me started on how they destroyed the Telvanni Mushroom acrchitecture lol or how the cities were notably smaller in size and in actual citizen capacity

Who is the designated Lore representative for the Zenimax team here on ESO? @ZOS_GinaBruno

It’s dead now. No varlines have been seen in the dlc. They retconned their own damn lore, even after saying it was canon. Unless you know something I don’t about the expansion? In which case i’ll proudly consider myself wrong.

All I'm saying is that the Varlines are legitimate Lore that is official cannon in written Developer text.

That was my only point to our conversation we were having about Altmer being (magicaly and technicaly) more advanced than the other races.

Until the Chapter is released we won't know if the varlines are actually in there or not. Or at being built/constructed. Similar to how they nearly ruined Vivec City by making it an incomplete construction zone with barely comparable parts to
it like the Original Morrowind nearly 3 thousand years in the future.

Dont even get me started on how they destroyed the Telvanni Mushroom acrchitecture lol or how the cities were notably smaller in size and in actual citizen capacity

We’ve seen enough gameplay to know the varlines aren’t there, nor are they being built. According to the lore, they’re supposed to already be here. Zenimax trashed the concept. It’s done. The idea of the varlines also goes against the apparent “vision” of both ZOS and Bethesda, who claim in an interview that magic in The Elder Scrolls is mundane and that society wouldn’t change much without it.

Altmer are not magically advanced anymore. That was a transcription error.

Edited by psychotrip on April 18, 2018 3:38PM

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

It’s dead now. No varlines have been seen in the dlc. They retconned their own damn lore, even after saying it was canon. Unless you know something I don’t about the expansion? In which case i’ll proudly consider myself wrong.

All I'm saying is that the Varlines are legitimate Lore that is official cannon in written Developer text.

That was my only point to our conversation we were having about Altmer being (magicaly and technicaly) more advanced than the other races.

Until the Chapter is released we won't know if the varlines are actually in there or not. Or at being built/constructed. Similar to how they nearly ruined Vivec City by making it an incomplete construction zone with barely comparable parts to
it like the Original Morrowind nearly 3 thousand years in the future.

Dont even get me started on how they destroyed the Telvanni Mushroom acrchitecture lol or how the cities were notably smaller in size and in actual citizen capacity

We’ve seen enough gameplay to know the varlines aren’t there, nor are they being built. According to the lore, they’re supposed to already be here. Zenimax trashed the concept. It’s done. The idea of the varlines also goes against the apparent “vision” of both ZOS and Bethesds, who claim in an interview that magic in The Elder Scrolls is mundane and that society wouldn’t change much without it.

Altmer are not magically advanced anymore. That was a transcription error.

Until an official source says they are retconned, or until the chapter shows every piece of content that shows nothing alluding to the Varlines, then you have no basis

What zenimax said had nothing to do with the Varlines themselves. So until they either specifically say they have retconned it, or the chapter is released and we see Nothing on it. Then everything you are saying is pure hypothesis.

It’s dead now. No varlines have been seen in the dlc. They retconned their own damn lore, even after saying it was canon. Unless you know something I don’t about the expansion? In which case i’ll proudly consider myself wrong.

All I'm saying is that the Varlines are legitimate Lore that is official cannon in written Developer text.

That was my only point to our conversation we were having about Altmer being (magicaly and technicaly) more advanced than the other races.

Until the Chapter is released we won't know if the varlines are actually in there or not. Or at being built/constructed. Similar to how they nearly ruined Vivec City by making it an incomplete construction zone with barely comparable parts to
it like the Original Morrowind nearly 3 thousand years in the future.

Dont even get me started on how they destroyed the Telvanni Mushroom acrchitecture lol or how the cities were notably smaller in size and in actual citizen capacity

We’ve seen enough gameplay to know the varlines aren’t there, nor are they being built. According to the lore, they’re supposed to already be here. Zenimax trashed the concept. It’s done. The idea of the varlines also goes against the apparent “vision” of both ZOS and Bethesds, who claim in an interview that magic in The Elder Scrolls is mundane and that society wouldn’t change much without it.

Altmer are not magically advanced anymore. That was a transcription error.

Until an official source says they are retconned, or until the chapter shows every piece of content that shows nothing alluding to the Varlines, then you have no basis

What zenimax said had nothing to do with the Varlines themselves. So until they either specifically say they have retconned it, or the chapter is released and we see Nothing on it. Then everything you are saying is pure hypothesis.

Until then, I stick to my written Official lore.

Alright, we'll see when the DLC releases. Just know that I've been in your exact position before, and every single time I ended up disappointed.

No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.

Albeit Sotha Sil is technically alive somewhere else, probably under torture by a daedric Prince since he was a Demi-god with tons of power. He may even still be in CwC in skyrims timeline in some machine form.

Spoiler for TES: Legends's Return to Clockwork City following, skip if you care. This happens during or short time after the events of Skyrim.

At the end of the story campaign they reveal (at least one of) the motivation(s) for Almalexia killing Sotha Sil: He's created a new mechanical Heart of Lorkhan together with new tools, something Almalexia wanted for herself alone. In the end the player – as the Forgotten Hero – has the choice to either destroy the Heart or use it to restore the Clockwork City. In latter case their body dissolves into pure energy, sucked into the machine, but they obviously don't die in the process. It's heavily hinted at that Sotha Sil planned something similar before and using his last hours to prepare everything and lock the Heart and the tools away in hidden places.

Kind of of a double standard there seeing as Dunmer are arguably the most prevalent slavers in ESO lol

we, the Ashlanders, we worship Azura, not the false Gods nor the Tribunal!
and we don´t have slaves.

The ashlanders are pretty weak

What are they compared to everyone else?

The great houses have far greater accomplishments and prestige in Tamriel with their advancements and power that even the Empire Feared them in Talo's time

They just happen to be be morally misguided as slavers. Which sucks, because other than that, they would be my favorite

I wish they'd do a rehash of the Dunmer into something less toxic and evil as slavery

Well, ashlanders are not so weak. They just happen to live in small, nomadic communities. But they are, strong, intelligent (more than great Houses, sometimes, as seen) members of awesome dunmer race. I would even put them in the second place of dunmer awesomeness, right behind House Telvanni.

Kind of of a double standard there seeing as Dunmer are arguably the most prevalent slavers in ESO lol

we, the Ashlanders, we worship Azura, not the false Gods nor the Tribunal!
and we don´t have slaves.

The ashlanders are pretty weak

What are they compared to everyone else?

The great houses have far greater accomplishments and prestige in Tamriel with their advancements and power that even the Empire Feared them in Talo's time

They just happen to be be morally misguided as slavers. Which sucks, because other than that, they would be my favorite

I wish they'd do a rehash of the Dunmer into something less toxic and evil as slavery

Well, for one, the Ashlanders were right about the prophecy of the Nerevarine. And then the Ashlanders are well suited to surviving in an ashen wasteland environment, which is pretty handy given what Vvardenfell and a fair bit of Morrowind get turned into. Finally, the Ashlanders never worshipped Vivec or captured Argonians which means that unlike the House Dunmer, they arent in any way to blame for Red Year.

So you can go with the House Dunmer for their power, wealth, and strength or the Ashlanders who have less of all that, but they were right and they didn't screw everything up massively.

Kind of of a double standard there seeing as Dunmer are arguably the most prevalent slavers in ESO lol

True Dunmer only enslave those that are better off that way. There is a huge difference between having some corruption and slavery in your country and your country being so beyond repair due to the corruption and decadence of its leaders that part of the population literally sees no other way than moving out to find a new home.

"Praised honesty" implied to be a virture by a member of a society that follows three of the biggest liars in Tamriel.

True Dunmer worship Azura.

You ever heard of the No true Scotsman fallacy? At any rate, how can someone be better off enslaved?
Altmer and Dunmer see themselves as the superior race so they can do what they want with everyone else, even the Dunmer ban on Necromancy only really extends to their own race, the rest are barely more than animals in their eyes.