Its all very well standing up when your own community is under attack, but would this lady stand up for the oppressed when they are not part of her cultural clique. Gays have it good- A single article about Gately generated 20,000 complaints and mass hysteria. if you pick up the daily mail/sun on any day you will see countless “articles”, most half lies, poisonous and inflammatory about muslims. These generate no complaints, nothing but even more hateful comments… that i expect most of the people on this site and probably this lady would support and contribute to. Standing up for your kind does not make you a beacon of tolerance and principle, gays can be racists and islamophobes of the worst kind, the oppressed can often become the oppressor. This lady says she is lucky as she has never directly experienced homophobia, maybe she should walk down any council estate in the UK wearing a headscarf, it might help better understand intolerance and discrimination. Or just watch last weeks Panorama. When I see a similar mainstream public backlash about the next prejudiced, lies filled inflammatory daily mail muslim article then i may have some respect. Otherwise all i see is a self intersted, opportunist, easy goal scored against a pathetic and out numbered opponent.

well done and thank you. i am suprised and pleased that you have not experienced any homophobia ever. I have my whole life it can be a downer but you raised my spirit and the reaction of the audience reminded me that the robn’s of the world are in a minority.

The truth sorry mate but I have experienced homophobia from the Muslim community i was on a bus and two Arab guys passed wind just before they moved seats and I hear comments I don’t understand but the looks and body language are unmistakeable. sort out your own yard first before critizings ours. address the hatred of us and our community in your world them maybe well help you

Firstly dean I am not your mate. Secondly I am sure there is tons of homophobia in the muslim community, THIS IS WRONG. you seem to be saying just because some muslims are homophobes they all deserve to be marginalised. Hmm doesn’t that gross generalisation and brush tarring sound a bit like Jan Moir. my point exactly.

The truth? thing your being a tad intolerant yourself. You perceive this lady as being self interested. Doh. do you think she should just sit there as say nothing to the twat. How opportunist that she spoke to him. Does that mean all audience participation is opportunist. if you were there would you have just smiled at him or been a self interested opportunist.
i saw the panorama programme and hated the racism. were the reporters being self interested in identifying prejudice. i think your a bot confused in your choice of words. i wouldnt take offence at gay people bringing to attention prejudice because the prejudice against you obviously painful. all prejudice is worth fighting

“Its all very well standing up when your own community is under attack, but would this lady stand up for the oppressed when they are not part of her cultural clique. ”

She’s a politician. It’s her job to put her cultural clique to the side when the rights of her constituents are at stake. If she cannot do that then she is failing in her job.

I have nothing against muslims who can recognise that other people’s rights are as important as their own. This Warsi woman was quite eloquent in defending the muslim minority. She is not a minority MP however. She is part of a mainstream party. And her attitudes towards gay people doesn’t seem that different from Nick Griffin’s attitude to muslims, even if she can get her point across more eloquently than he can.

“This lady says she is lucky as she has never directly experienced homophobia, maybe she should walk down any council estate in the UK wearing a headscarf, it might help better understand intolerance and discrimination.”

I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that it is a gay mob who is harassing a woman in a headscarf on a council estate.
Likewise it is highly unlikely that all homophobic attacks are perpetrated by a muslim mob.

Although it is worth pointing out that not a single mainstream muslim organisation in Britain is opposed to homophobia. Presumably these mainstream muslim groups are part of the muslim ‘cultural clique’ you speak of. Are we therefore to believe that homophobia is accepted and acceptable in islam in Britain?

dave. i agree maybe self interest and opportunist is a bit harsh. my point is sticking up for your own is easy. to stand up for intolerance everywhere you see it, is something that deserves true accolade. as the liberal democrat last night highlighted, there is a targeted campaign by the bnp against muslims, similar to those seen in the past against other communities, you only need to see their flyers, read daily/mail, go to there website to see this. sadly i dont think 20,000 complaints to offcom will be coming from anyone on this site including the author.

No 14: “there is a targeted campaign by the bnp against muslims, similar to those seen in the past against other communities,”

And that is disgusting.

It does not alter the fact that islam’s hierarchy is utterly vile on the subject of homosexuality. The fact that muslims are unfairly harassed because of their religion does not excuse the homophobia of ALL the mainstream British muslim groups.

“I have nothing against muslims who can recognise that other people’s rights are as important as their own. This Warsi woman.. her attitudes towards gay people doesn’t seem that different from Nick Griffin’s attitude to muslims”

well all i can say is that some gay peoples attitudes to muslims are not that dissimilar to the BNP’s/daily mail. again u seem to be saying that just because some muslims dont support civil partnerships and are homophobic they all deserve what they get. again this sounds a bit like Jan. i think you are saying u only stand up for people you like and who agree with you. that is not what principled tolerance is about, it is self interested and opportunistic.

“I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that it is a gay mob who is harassing a woman in a headscarf on a council estate.
Likewise it is highly unlikely that all homophobic attacks are perpetrated by a muslim mob.”

i was not saying that is was likely that a gay mob would persecute a muslim . i was making the point that if you look around you, read the papers, watch Tv read blogs you will see there is much more overt hate against muslims then their is homophbia in this country.

Although it is worth pointing out that not a single mainstream muslim organisation in Britain is opposed to homophobia. Presumably these mainstream muslim groups are part of the muslim ‘cultural clique’ you speak of. Are we therefore to believe that homophobia is accepted and acceptable in islam in Britain?

again you are presuming that the loud hateful mouthpiece extremist muslims represent the majority. shall i pop into my local gay sauna and then presume what i see and hear represents all gays

@ the truth “Firstly dean I am not your mate. Secondly I am sure there is tons of homophobia in the muslim community, THIS IS WRONG. you seem to be saying just because some muslims are homophobes they all deserve to be marginalised.” nah, what I’m saying I’m not gonna defend someone who hates me and wants to superglue my rectum and far as I’m concerned they can suffer, you want my help then get your crew to drop the homophobia geddit?

.” nah, what I’m saying I’m not gonna defend someone who hates me and wants to superglue my rectum and far as I’m concerned they can suffer, you want my help then get your crew to drop the homophobia geddit? ”

ok ill do that but only if you get your crew to help you with your english homework

“again you are presuming that the loud hateful mouthpiece extremist muslims represent the majority. shall i pop into my local gay sauna and then presume what i see and hear represents all gays”. yeah that’s so clumsy you troll I think the bnp have a new id

I don’t understand why in Britain people take criticism of religion as racism. They are two different things. Gay people have every right to defend themselves against religious bigotry. Religion must be criticised because it has chosen to interfeer in secular democracy, when it shouldn’t. The point is, all Abrahamic religions are homophobic and I have an intense dislike for all of them because of that, and I believe so do lots of gay people. Is that clear now?

“I don’t understand why in Britain people take criticism of religion as racism. They are two different things”

saying its ok to slag off muslims as they are not a race and can choose to be non muslims is quite naive. people are born into a religion, having a belief is what defines them as a person, its how they live their lives, its a lifestyle,how they were raised into, influenced by the people they grew up with, their family, friends etc. saying that you have a choice as to which culture you are born into is silly and BNP rheotoric. its a smokescreen to justify abuse .. its the reason why the labour government has made it illegal to discriminate on the grounds of religion. do you think you all have a choice in your culture, sure you can modify your beliefs but ask yourself why would an already marginalised muslim suddenly open arms rush into the arms of the very people who slag them off on a daily basis…. all this hating drives the moderate muslims straight into the arms of the extremists.

I don’t agree with The Truth when s/he says that Beth Mellington-Pritchard’s brilliant heckle was just the response of a self-protective cultural clique. The BNP attacks us queers, and it’s great when we get together and defend ourselves against their disgusting homophobia. However, I find it really depressing when the commenters on this thread immediately confirm every other point The Truth makes – that queer people don’t care about Islamophobia – by attacking Muslims and Islam. It is just not the case that all Muslims hate gays, that they are misguided and stupid, or that they’re cowardly and disgusting. The BNP hates queers and Muslims alike: is there no way that we can have some solidarity with each other, instead of sniping at each other when we should be celebrating Beth Mellington-Pritchard?

27: The Truth: “well simon. you obviously have not heard of british muslims for secular democracy a group that is not homophobic … the Quilliam foundation which stands for religious freedom, human rights, democracy in the UK”

No I’ve not heard of them. Are these mainstream groups that enjoy the support of the majority of British muslims?

Or are they minor groups, fightly bravely in the face of mainstream islamic groups like the MCB which are clearly homophobic?

“Maybe you should stop presuming you know every muslim by what you read in the Sun ”

I am FAR too intelligent to read the Sun for anything other than their online entertainment, gossip section. The cheek!

“Has an individual, publicly under the banner of being gay, ever tortured, beheaded or shot a muslim for identifying as a muslim? Enough said you muppet.”

No but a whole country did go to war based on spurious intelligence(aka lies) which resulted in 80,000 collateral (aka dead muslims) where are the poppies for them? or is it because they are brown and muslim and not gay they dont matter?

sorry brian this is the first time i have used comment on this site. if i chose a name that already exists then i cant help that. its charming how you great people with a tirade of insults. clearly all the over 18s have now left and probably gone to the pub, so i shall leave the rest to concentrate on their homework. i think you should concentrate on manners and english grammar. i think i said all i wanted to. and btw i was probably was a little harsh initially on the author, she did a good job. but im sure some of u also do understand where i was coming from. good night.

“No but a whole country did go to war based on spurious intelligence(aka lies) which resulted in 80,000 collateral (aka dead muslims) where are the poppies for them? or is it because they are brown and muslim and not gay they dont matter?”

1) Gay people don’t go looking for muslims to beat up on and kill/execute.

2) Gay people view all people as equal. Yet somehow it doesn’t stretch the imagination to believe how much of a second-class citizen I’d be in a muslim country, say Iran? You think I’d be allowed to stay alive in that country? Could you tell me what religion is in that country again please? And lastly,

3) You have a chip on your shoulder about how you don’t like the murky reasons for certain countries to go to war due to terrorist activities of extremist muslims. You gave a figure of 80 000, which is horrific. How about the MILLIONS of gay people who have been too afraid to come out, been ejected from families, rejected from societies & murdered & killed since the beginning of time BECAUSE of religions?

My god boy! If you think taking people to task about their spelling and grammar is important in the face of the threat to the gay community, then that just says more about you & your arguments than we could ever say about you. Astonishing.

im sorry .. i was presuming that your lax atitude toward grammar and spelling and use of expletives was an indication of your aggressive and confrontational attitude. my mistake your probably quite reasonable and polite then,

Well done Beth. I am pleased that you made a statement to him which he needed to hear. I watched some of it and when asked a closed question which needed a yes or no, he kept spouting off rubbish.
I am so pleased that I know you and your wife Ellen – keep up the good fight.

” …. people are born into a religion, having a belief is what defines them as a person, its how they live their lives, its a lifestyle ….”

I’m sorry The truth, they are only all of these things because you choose for them to be. All these things could be said of gay people and there is often discussion on here about whether being gay defines us, or whether it is only one of a number of aspects that make us who we are.

I’m, guessing you have chosen for it to be a big part of your life.

How do the two conflicting interests pan out for gay Muslims in general? Clearly people cannot change what they were born to be, but a choice of religion makes it difficult to live life as a homosexual.

I notice also that you throw in the word Islamophobia. Britain has a well established multiracial community. With all maner of ethnicties, cultures and religions here. Can you tell me why only one religion has a phobia derived from its name? There is no such word as Hinduphobia, Buddismophobia, or Sikhismophobia for example.

Is it a dogged refusal by some sections of the Islamic community to integrate that has led to friction causing this new word to be bought into play?

What I would have liked to ask mr Griffin: If he advocates for the repatriation of foreigners, is he also going to bring all the Brits living overseas back to the UK? Is he basically saying that nobody is allowed to move anymore?

“people are born into a religion, having a belief is what defines them as a person, its how they live their lives, its a lifestyle,how they were raised into, influenced by the people they grew up with, their family, friends etc. saying that you have a choice as to which culture you are born into is silly and BNP rheotoric.”

That comment is an immediate ‘red flag’ moment for me. I was born catholic. I was brought up catholic. Catholicism is homophobic and intolerant. Therefore I rejected it. Muslim people could and should do the same thing.

“all this hating drives the moderate muslims straight into the arms of the extremists.”

Please define a ‘moderate muslim’?
Please confirm that you regard the Muslim Council of Britain as extremist because of their stated homophobia? Otherwise you are spouting nonsense.

The Truth: there is no means by which one can conflate religion and sexuality.

Islamophobia is as honourable as anti-Christianism and anti-Judaism, although the very word “Islamophobia” is designed to elicit sentiments of irrational phobia rather than sensible criticism.

To claim that hatred of ideas is illegal – specifically Islamic ideas – that is a nonsense. It is right that any self respecting person should disown backward beliefs, and the more backward the beliefs, the more they should be hated.

Sadly the Islamic faith hasn’t undergone an Enlightenment as happened in Europe with Christianity and Judaism, so many of its adherants still follow 14th century principles.

You rightly say that not all Muslims adhere to the fundamental creed of hatred of gays, women, fun and happiness, but that does not excuse Islam or any religion from criticism because some of its followers are normal.

FWIW, no one with religious beliefs can call themselves normal. But that’s irrelevant. Your beef is that you feel offended because people insult Muslims. Big deal. Get over it. Join the club of millions of Christians who are insulted daily. In a modern country like Britain, religion is just another wacky idea to be laughed at, ridiculed, and despised where appropriate.

Blasphemy is not illegal. The ironically named UN Human Rights Council, mainly made up of Islamic countries, passed a resolution calling for all member states to enforce blasphemy laws. The UN is a joke, Islam is a joke, and you have to get used to it. Or be like the gay Christians and Judaists who belong to gay friendly sects. If none exist in Islam, start one. No one’s stopping you. You do live in a (semi) free country.

If you feel Islam is being unfairly characterised, press forward with bringing sensible Islam, insofar as any reigion can be sensible, into the mainstream. I take your point that many people in this country are instinctively against Islam – but that is based on our experience of its worst forms of terrorism and demanding change. A tolerant, modern version in line with our liberal democratic values can’t be hated. People are generally not bad, as the lack of support for the BNP demonstrates.

ty (28): Oh, that’s what I assumed. I have to toe the “party” line and say want I’m expected to say like you’re some kind of party whip?

I’ve said it before that the “Gay Community” is a myth. The only thing I have in common with anyone on here is the sex of the person I go do bed with. Nothing else. Why the f_ck should I possibly want to give support to left-wing, blinkered dicksplashes like you?

‘The Truth’ makes some important points. I welcome the MCB’s recent comment about addressing homophobia. I have to say though , ‘the truth’ , this is an extremely fast turnaround, Only a few years ago, their predecessor made some downright disgusting comments about LGBT people.

I want to know what made them change their minds on this?

The Quilliam Foundation – good intentions; I wish they would speak up more.

The problem still remains with the huge proportion of young muslims who would recriminalize or even introduce the death penalty for homosexuality.

Am happy with anyone of any faith so long as they allow others to pursue happiness in their own way that doesn’t harm others. There’s One Law For all and that’s all there is to be said.

Why should the LGBT community defend Muslims when only a few months ago Muslims where threatening violence against Leicester Pride parade. We have had pubs fire bombed, people murdered, assaulted and threats of violence against LGBT venues by members of the Muslim community in the last year. So put your own house in order first The Truth and stop worrying about ours.

Dear sister mary Clarence. You wrote:
“I notice also that you throw in the word Islamophobia. Britain has a well established multiracial community. With all maner of ethnicties, cultures and religions here. Can you tell me why only one religion has a phobia derived from its name? There is no such word as Hinduphobia, Buddismophobia, or Sikhismophobia for example.
Is it a dogged refusal by some sections of the Islamic community to integrate that has led to friction causing this new word to be bought into play? “

I note that the word gay and homophobia did not exist 50 years ago, does that discredit those words. Just because a word is new does not make it irrelevant.

Integration. This always makes me laugh, pre 2001 most British people when seeing a brown person could not tell the difference, what they were. They were all Indian to them, now suddenly everyone is an expert on south Asians peoples and history in the uk and how well they integrate.

It might just be that there are a significant majority of muslims that are integrated, if you open your eyes visit, your local shops, newsagents, schools, hospitals, you might just see them, just because they don’t have a beard and don’t wear burquas does not make they are not muslim. I don’t presume that only the women wearing habits are the only catholics in Britain. You don’t seriously believe that only those muslims that are too loud and throw their religion in everyone’s faces represent all muslims.

There are plenty of examples of communities in the UK living ghettoised lives; i can name countless communities who only interact with people who are similar to them, only hang out with people who are similar to them, wear the same type of clothes, go to the same bars, clubs, and don’t really have any friends with others. The only difference is that the media spotlight is not on those communities. Why is that? Well we have to go back in time to explain that (eg alqeda, war on terror, bombings, shock and awe, 7/7, 80,000 iraqis dead, cluster bombs) – i’m sure if in the last 10 years a similar experience had affected another group they would also be a little wary of people.

My last point is what exactly would you like muslims to integrate into, the host culture, binge drinking, ASBOs disrespect, urinating in streets. or am i using daily mail stereotypes of UK here. And remember integration is a two way street, what efforts have any of you made in the other direction. People are all to aware of the British history of “integration” the empire, invading looting other lands india china, carving up Africa, profiting from the slave trade and importing workers to do the crappy jobs that no white person wants to do. Is this what we are supposed to integrate into. Or is it do as I say not as I do. Just because the moral high ground has recently been taken in the UK about its past historical sins… it still happened, but i suppose all that is forgiven now, and so it should be.

The muslim community also has a history and timeline and they are on a separate journey of enlightenment, albeit small and new. it is not effective for people on the outside to shout change, real change comes from within. That is why people need to support progressive muslim groups like British Muslims for Secular Democracy, Quillam,and Imaan .

It is not my fault if you have not heard of these progressive muslim groups, it is probably a failure of your gay media, and probably says more about the agenda of the people who own these outlets and sites.

Integration: the glorious symbol of cross cultural integration, Brits abroad, the cultural finesse of costa del essex, how many of these brits can actually speak Spanish, and of course the great cultural exchange of vomit and urine that any poor eastern European capital experiences on stag weekends especially those that have the unfortunate luck of being on an easy jet flight path.

Truth,
The truth is, you are a gutless guttersnipe who has not the GUTS to Identify yourself. Instead You Lying Hound, you hide behind the very word which means: Truth is the foundation on which all human relations are built. Your confontational commenting always leads to wastelands! Damn you to hell, you untruth.

Truth: You spout stereotypes about both immigrants and indigenous Brits alike: Not all Muslims are extremists, and not all British holidaymakers are lager louts. All you are doing is making seeping generalisations about a subject you obviously know little about.

Incidentally, as you want to be picky:
(39)“im sorry .. i was presuming that your lax atitude toward grammar and spelling and use of expletives was an indication of your aggressive and confrontational attitude. my mistake your probably quite reasonable and polite then,”

‘Attitude’ has 3 ‘T’s, Sentences begin with a capital letter and end with a full stop, and the personal imperative ‘I’ is always capitalised. If you take so much heedance in other people’s English, you need to get up a f_ck sight earlier in the morning to criticise some of us.

I watced BBC Question Time and it was a waste of time. What about the UNtruth gettersnipe. You appear to be one of those Clown Fundamentalists slimy slggging your way aruond the GAY threads…Am I right, Slime-Ball?

The Truth Wrote
“My last point is what exactly would you like muslims to integrate into, the host culture, binge drinking, ASBOs disrespect, urinating in streets. or am i using daily mail stereotypes of UK here. And remember integration is a two way street, what efforts have any of you made in the other direction. People are all to aware of the British history of “integration” the empire, invading looting other lands india china, carving up Africa, profiting from the slave trade and importing workers to do the crappy jobs that no white person wants to do. Is this what we are supposed to integrate into. Or is it do as I say not as I do. Just because the moral high ground has recently been taken in the UK about its past historical sins… it still happened, but i suppose all that is forgiven now, and so it should be.”

The problem with “The Truth” about radicalization is that no country is blameless or can claim to be righteous.

I think the issues of “Integration” is complex, and one of the strengths of the UK is that unlike some countries we have not sort to impose a specific identity onto potentially new “British Citizens”. . . although this has begun to change now with the advent of citizenship classes and ceremonies.

I think the question what would you like “Muslims” to integrate into is a fair question, but since you are asking it in the context of a website devoted to LGBT news issues, I will answer your question from this perspective.

Any person coming to the country who wants to be a “British Citizen” needs to be able to take on board some quite radical and different ideas about homosexuality compared with the cultural situations in some countries where homosexuality is still illegal.

With regards integration this is what any person needs to understand value and respect:
* Homosexuality is not illegal in this country
* Homosexuals are allowed to form civil marriages in this country
* Homosexuals in this country are allowed to adopt children
* Homosexuals are accorded similar status and rights as heterosexuals.

With regards integration this is what any person needs to understand value and respect:
* Homosexuality is not illegal in this country
* Homosexuals are allowed to form civil marriages in this country
* Homosexuals in this country are allowed to adopt children
* Homosexuals are accorded similar status and rights as heterosexuals.

Dear JohnK. I accept and agree with everything you have said. but my original point was it is easy to stand up and defend your own, people you agree with and like. but when you see bigotry against the “other” i wonder how many people would stand up. being against bigotry everywhere is true liberalism and tolerance. The former is self serving and opportunistic.

I think you are right to draw attention to this issue of selective tolerance.

. . . and I can understand you getting upset over this, especially since as LGBT we are also are acutely aware of this injustice; and this you would have thought might have made us more concerned with challenging bigotry in all its forms.

It is interesting that selective intolerance is being taken serious by psychologists, particularly in the area of racism, sexism and homophobia/heterosexism.

There is hope . . . I am optimistic

The reason I say is that is based on studies by Mosocovic into minority majority rule. These studies found that a minority group can change the minds of the majority but under certain conditions.
These are persistence and clarity, i.e. the group needs to clearly put forward their ideas or concerns; but be prepared to be persistent in articulating these and be consistent with their message.

I do often think where is the Liberal Muslim voice in the UK . . . especially since in Islam their was an Enlightenment period with advances in science, medicine and the arts well before the Western European Enlightenment from the 15 century onwards.

The Islamic Enlightenment occurring in the 12 century which lead to harmonious relationships between Christians, Jews and Muslims in areas such as Cordoba, Southern Spain – I do think is testimony to the reciprocity, creativity and integration which can occur between different peoples, cultures and religions. I do not see why this cannot be repeated, after all history we are told continuously repeats it’s self in many ways.

I am glad to hear that the Liberal Muslim voice is alive, although I understand struggling to be heard. . .

As in all things the Medias obsession with the spectacular, the larger than life and the outrageous will always give precedence to the “Fire-brand” as opposed to the “Liberal voice” . . .

The Truth: “That is why people need to support progressive muslim groups like British Muslims for Secular Democracy, Quillam,and Imaan .”

The best course of action!

Taken from a bird’s eye view, the majority of Muslims – or at least a statistically high number of people, based on the fact that in the last decade there has been an influx in the order of 3 million or so Muslims – there is a large number of Muslim people who abhor gays, disrespect secular democracy, demand special rights such as stopping any criticism of Islam or calling for Sharia law, and expect Britain to change or acquiesce to their religion.

Religion is in no position to make demands on anyone, and this has to be understood by Muslims. Christians have just about got the message, bar a few devout (or some would say extremist) Catholic adoption agencies and the odd fanatic. The majority of Britons have no malice towards people of a different skin colour. Problems arise when special exemptions or treatment is required for a religion, or when there is a huge influx of uneducated and/or bigoted economic migrants – from Eastern Europe, Africa or indeed Muslims.

Everyone, except the BNP, understands that skilled immigrant workers are a necessity and benefit the economy. Immigrants landing or stowed away on the back of lorries and heading straight to the benefits office are pretty much despisedl, especially when they bring with them hatred of gays, Jews, women, alcohol and freedom.

I think it’s going to be clear what the next general election shall be fought on – reduction of immigrants and economic fecundity/perspicacity.

The Ghettos of Mohammedan are a terrifying place, and the inhabitants frequently seep out into the street to terrify gays, women and Jews. As do the Africans and Eastern Europeans. Unskilled jobs go to them instead of unemployed Britons. This is just fact, and why so many people are against mass immigration, and hence vote (or consider voting) for the BNP. Not because of their skin colour.

Things might be different if most immigrants were kindly, helpful and skilled, but alas most are not. It’s why they’re here.

comment63
‘problems arise when special exemptions or treatment is required for a religion, or when there is a huge influx of uneducated and/or bigoted economic migrants – from Eastern Europe, Africa or indeed Muslims’…
The fact that immigrants take on low paid or unskilled jobs doesn’t mean they are uneducated, bigoted maybe then again this country is not short of them, given that 2mln people read daily mail every day.
‘As do the Africans and Eastern Europeans. Unskilled jobs go to them instead of unemployed Britons’…
So how come the UK ended up with over 1 million Eastern Europeans, not because UK let them work here (a lot of them were here before 2004), but because over million unskilled jobs needed people to do them, at the same time over million people were sitting on their a**s doing nothing but claiming benefits, also how come new arrivals more effective at keeping the jobs, some unskilled Britons could learn thing or two from them.

response to voidal “The Ghettos of Mohammedan are a terrifying place, and the inhabitants frequently seep out into the street to terrify gays, women and Jews. As do the Africans and Eastern Europeans. Things might be different if most immigrants were kindly, helpful and skilled, but alas most are not. ”
——————————————————————
Translation: i dont like muslims, africans and eastern europeans as they are mostly violent unkind, unhelpful and have no skills. But I do like gays and Jews.

I think that statement says more about you than anything else. Actually you sound a bit like Nick Griffin, how appropriate to this thread.

“Unskilled jobs go to them instead of unemployed Britons. This is just fact, and why so many people are against mass immigration,”

i think you’ll find a lot of these unskilled jobs are the type of jobs your typical “white working class” (which is an oxymoron in itself) dont want to do eg fruit picking, care work, emptying bins, leafletting and packing. you cant blaim immigrants for that.

i wonder how many of these so called working class actually want to work? how many are spurious disability allowance claimants? signed off sick? pram pushers? at least immigrants have an aspiration to improve their lives, from what i see there is an awful lot of lack of aspiration, people bereft of a motivation to improve their lives. Wallowing in a culture of disrespect, revelling in their bad parenting to raise children who’s only qualification in life is an ASBO. It’s easy to scapegoat the weakest and most disadvantaged (immigrants) to blame your problems on. looking in the mirror is harder.

Andy: “So how come the UK ended up with over 1 million Eastern Europeans, not because UK let them work here (a lot of them were here before 2004), but because over million unskilled jobs needed people to do them”

I believe the figure of recent new-accession EU Eastern European immigration is 700,000. The simple fact is that if someone is looking for a job, they will take one if no other work is available, and the more economic migrants there are, the less jobs available.

The Truth: “Translation: i dont like muslims, africans and eastern europeans as they are mostly violent unkind, unhelpful and have no skills. But I do like gays and Jews.”

You got that right! The former are wastrels, the latter productive and integral members of society.

It almost sounds as though you don’t like gays or Jews. Has your religion warped your mind? It looks so.

“i think you’ll find a lot of these unskilled jobs are the type of jobs your typical “white working class” (which is an oxymoron in itself) dont want to do eg fruit picking, care work, emptying bins, leafletting and packing. you cant blaim immigrants for that.”

White working class is an oxymoron? Now I see why people have been so against you – you generalise white working class people as “spurious disability allowance claimants…signed off sick…pram pushers” and laughably claim that “immigrants have an aspiration to improve their lives” LOL!

White working class “Wallow in a culture of disrespect, revelling in their bad parenting to raise children who’s only qualification in life is an ASBO.” LOL!

“It’s easy to scapegoat the weakest and most disadvantaged (immigrants) to blame your problems on.” LOL!

In a recession, people take jobs they wouldn’t ordinarily take. But I shouldn’t expect ecenomic theories to have any sway over you. You seem fixated on the idea that white people hate you. Any explanation by anyone is dismissed as ‘honkey hate me’, and a few useful idiots chip in claiming that discussing immigration policy is racist.

I believe most people can differentiate between foreign economic migrants taking a job that could otherwise be filled by a native Briton, and a racist rant. Attempting to confuse the two is a tactic designed to stunt talk of immigration – and it is precisely that which has led to the rise of the BNP. 80% of the population demand cuts to immigration (see “Eight out of 10 Britons want immigration cap” Telegraph.co.uk) and because of the tactic by certain politicos to shut down debate through accusations of racism, leading to no discussion and people flocking to anyone who does – be they BNP or UKIP.

Now we have a Labour insider revealing it was deliberate socialist policy to flood Britain with immigrants in order to socially engineer their ideal society (see “Labour ‘Encouraged Mass Immigration To UK'”, Sky News).

Add to that we have the stated goal of many Islamic organisations to conquer and Islamify Britain, and we see why many Muslims want mass Islamic immigration – even those who stand to lose the most by Sharia law, such as gay, liberal or tolerant Muslims – scary.

Anyone who thinks the hordes of Poles, Eastern Europeans, Africans and Muslims are 99% gay-loving happy sweet bunnies are SORELY misguided, and that is not racist to say so. Following that logic to the end would mean that saying a large proportion of British society is homophobic would be tantamount to being racist against Britons – this is an absurd conclusion. Such “poisoning the well” attacks have the aim of discrediting any sensible discussion for the purpose of promoting various agendas

The Truth: “Translation: i dont like muslims, africans and eastern europeans as they are mostly violent unkind, unhelpful and have no skills. But I do like gays and Jews.”

You got that right! The former are wastrels, the latter productive and integral members of society.

this requires no response and shows you for what you are

“You seem fixated on the idea that white people hate you”

you seem fixated and obsessed by the belief that immigrants are here to do bad things to you, you have an irrational hatred, you have swallowed hook line and sinker the islam 4uk rhetoric, maybe you should go and march against them on the 31st, rather than shower me with your BNP rhetoric. personally, i am not pro un-capped immigration.

but if you honestly beleive all muslims are here to do bad things to you and impose sharia law then you are unnessarily stoking up a clash of cultures to suit your own twisted beleifs. it is the oxygen that your vile beliefs thrive on, and you love nothing better than cloaking yourself in a sick veneer of victimhood regardless of the facts and reality.

and i wasn’t quite sure why you were LOL so much at my comments about the working class, please look at the facts and figures for people signed off sick, long term unemployed, disability claimants and teenage mothers in these areas. (many of them BNP areas). it is a real issue which deserves a response, or is that the fault of immigrants too.

The Truth: “you seem fixated and obsessed by the belief that immigrants are here to do bad things to you”

Quite the contrary. I am fully aware of the proportion of immigrant hostility towards gays with regard to the whole. It depends on whom you are discussing: Muslims, Africans and East Europeans are the worst offenders; Orientals, Indians and East African Muslims the least. Please do not attempt to portray me as a “Little Englander”.

If you had bothered to read my initial comment, you’d be aware that I am fully conscious of such liberal Muslim organisations as Quillium, and fully support them. However, these outfits represent a tiny minority of the Muslim population as a whole, which number nearly 3 million. As a result of such high numbers of Muslims, there is a subsequent large amount of anti-West, anti-gay, anti-Jewish, anti-British adherents of Wahhabi Islam.

Native European Islam, such as that practiced in the Balkans, is much more akin to European Christianity, and fits in far easier than the desert Sharia kind.

The fundamental point is that gay people have much to lose by the importation of barbaric Muslims and other immigrants from backward cultures. More than that, though, society has much to lose from mass immigration: be they women, Jews, secularists, and other persons of civism for whom the barbarous nature of the wider world is not our cup of tea.

As to your incomprehension of why I was laughing at your statements about white working class, perhaps you are unable to see the irony of your aspersions against the group as a whole versus your indignant outrage at supposed mischaracterisations of Muslims.

The simple fact, or the truth, is that immigration is out of control. Our population will rise by 4 million in the next decade, reaching 70 million by 2029.

This is unsustainable for the economy, schools, healthcare, police, housing, security, community cohesion, and, yes, welfare (see “Cowardice on immigration has allowed the BNP to flourish”, Telegraph.co.uk)

Arguing for unfettered immigration is so last year. No one in this country apart from a few befuddled Marxists and those wishing a Sharia state want unmanaged immigration. We are a small country with limited resources, not the saviour of the world’s poor. No one but the most voracious socialist can argue that it is justified to give jobs to foreigners before residents.

And with regard to the intolerance shown towards minorities by what I shall term “backward immigrants” – those from barbaric cultures – yes, there are normal people. But the majority are backward in their dealings with minorities. Weeding out the “good” ones is very hard. So it’s best for all that none come. Besides, if there is no economic requirement for them – as in, jobs – there is simply no need for them to be here or to forcefully build a multicultural society fulfilling some dejected communist’s desire of Living the Dream.

It is not up to Britain to enrich some emigrant simply because his home country is in the gutter. Especially when said émigrés negatively impact on the life of any Briton. It is cultural suicide to continue as we are.

There is a place for immigrants. Those who wish to come here to benefit the country and themselves are welcomed. Freeloaders of any kind are despised, be they benefits scroungers of any hue or militant Muslims who want to turn Britain into an Islamic Republic.

You seem to be very bigoted against the white working class for some reason? It gives an impression of resentment or racism on your part towards them. I doubt you even understand who they are and who they are not! They are not the feckless idiots on social security you claim they are. Those people are the under class who have lost out in the post industrial economy. We are in great danger of adding another generation to their number as the traditional jobs school leavers occupy are fill by migrant workers.

The question must be asked will Thatchers lost generation be replaced by Browns lost generation. These feckless youth of all ethnic backgrounds, who have little or no hope of achieving the dreams government and TV has sold them. They are the future foot soldiers of all sorts of fundamentalist organisations. It will be just like in the 80’s membership of the communist party and the national fount was on the rise.

While Thatcher took away the traditional industries of the working class to push more into the under class and convinced those who became property owners they where now middle class. NuLabour have used uncontrolled immigration to do the same sort of job.

What it does is create a divide between these two groups the working poor and the under class. Dividing these groups makes great political sense as it guarantees all elections will go the way of the middle classes. The deception of the working classes continues as significant number of the working class have also been deceived into thinking they are middle class.

What you see as white racism is more about the ongoing class struggle in this country. In many ways race is used to deflect peoples attention away from the class struggle. When they elect the Queens distant cousin David Cameron as prime minister. You will see race, immigration and even sexuality used as an excuse to further divide the working men and woman of this country.

@Voidal
UK has to decide whether it wants to be in E.U or not. You can’t just pick and choose things you like, being in EU benefits greatly UK business, also it benefits gay community, without it we wouldn’t be able to enjoy rights we enjoy now, even ‘gay friendly’ Labour government was forced couple times to change the laws concerning equality. Thanks to EU your ‘barbaric eastern European countries ‘ will learn things today we take for granted, but by being in EU, UK has to, weather it likes it or not, accept free labour movement across EU. Stronger unification of EU will benefit gay comunity even futher. Key here is a bigger picture

I agree, it is a mistake to avoid the issue of immigration, although no country can survive and develop without new ideas; neither can it survive with a open immigration policy since social cohesion is a delicate matter.

I do not think we differ radically on this one . . . since I do not think any one in their right mind would want to block skilled migrant workers or genuine asylum seekers, whilst at the same time disenfranchise indigenous workers . . . perhaps my preamble was unclear. . . but then again how on earth can any party achieve politically speaking; such a near in possible balancing act. . . especially since most centre politics would not want put curbs on migration as well.

As a personal friend of Nick Griffin I have always been critical of some of his opinons on Gay people. Yet I respect his honesty. He is telling us how he feels personally when he says he dislikes seeing gay people kiss. I dare say many people think like this but say nothing. That is why debate, even confrontation is so important. It is part of a process where views are challenged and people get the opportunity to reflect.

I think he was very unfairly treated on Question Time and the more genuine debate there is the better. I am far more liberal than Nick on many issues but I think he is someone who will consider arguments on their merits. Don’t write-off the one million people who voted BNP. It would be a big mistake.

I agree with you that the barbarism of the Eastern bloc will subside thanks to EU membership.

I think the EU is a fantastic idea – but not for Britain.

We have fiercely guarded our independence for the best part of 600 years against Europe, only for us to be hoodwinked and thrust against our will into a federalist superstate.

The only referendum the British have had is on whether or not to join the Common Market. The social, military, domestic and foreign policy union now in effect, especially thanks to Lisbon, has never had any deomcratic mandate.

I don’t accept the point that “Stronger unification of EU will benefit gay comunity even futher” – perhaps in the Eastern states or the recent deomcracies of Italy, Spain, Germany etc. Northern Europe (IE Britain, Holland, Scandinavia) has no need to be in the EU for human rights.

You’re correct that Labour had to have its hand forced to introduce gay rights, but I question whether thiat would have happened any way given time and pressure from within Britain itself.

In any case, nothing greater than free trade is needed with the EU. If we pulled out of the EU, we would then be able to join NAFTA as well as EFTA, instead of artificially increasing our trade with the EU at the cost of tariffs imposed on US imports. Removing such tariffs would probably lead to a higher proportion of trade with NAFTA than the EU.

Only good can come from leaving the EU – and we could limit the free labour movement from Europe.

All pluses and no negatives with leaving the EU, and if the British public were given a vote, I’m almost certain what the result would be. That’s why they won’t give us a vote!

Perhaps you could enlighten Griffin on such outlandishly radical arguments as one’s ethnicity does not confer upon one inherent propensities or capabilities, and that meritocratic individualism is a far superior mode of thought than racial, sexual or gender division.

The million who voted BNP did so for the reasons stated in this discussion, notwithstanding the tiny minority who sincerely despise other races. Immigration is the biggest single cause of BNP popularity.

“I note that the word gay and homophobia did not exist 50 years ago, does that discredit those words. Just because a word is new does not make it irrelevant.”

Hinduphobia, Buddismophobia, and Sikhismophobia
still don’t. What sets these religions apart from Islam, that requires such a word as Islamophobia to be thought up?

I certainly don’t believe that those with extremist or findamentalist Islamic views represent the whole Muslim community. Someone previously mentioned saunas. Pay a visit to any sauna in London and you’re probably find the Muslim community to be over represented amongst the clientelle, in central London at least. Most Muslims do integrate as do most other religions to the best of their ability. It is the ones that don’t that cause tnesions. We seem to be developing a trend in this country for Muslims not to do so and this will cause friction and tension.

We all have to share this planet and a little give and take is what is needed. When in Rome etc. In this country Muslims need to adapt to the expectations of British society and Christians do when in Saudi for example.

@ Pat: Not much point in respecting Nick’s honesty when his views hold nothing to respect. Oh, and so much for his “honesty” about the KKK eh? Hey, they’re not nasty murdering bastards at all! They are ALMOST completely non-violent according to Nicky boy. Oh well that’s OK then. And let’s not kid ourselves…given the power to change legislation as they wish, the BNP would like to see all non-whites, non-christians, disabled and gay people dead.

Frankly Pat, I couldn’t care less if you consider yourself more liberal than Nick Griffin. If you vote for him, or the BNP, then you’re a turkey voting for the christmas day meal.

What a Resounding good debate with most comments first class and rellivent to the subject in hand. The only Fly in the ointment is the TRUTH person (Whoever he or she is?) ‘It’ wants to be the dominent one but is quite below the debating inteligenge of RobN, JohnK, Simon Murphy and a few more. I saw Beth Mellington-Pritchard tackle Griffin and it was a good tackle but then lost in a moment because of the speed the Programme was moving. Er..Carry on debating.

Far out, the most interesting posts i’ve read for a while on this site… go Simon Murphy! and Brian B! Seriously tho, I’m originally from Wigan (Gr Manchester). Hence my interest, and hence my getting as far away as possible. And that was fifteen years ago…

Some of the comments here are childish in the extreme. Why so many people want to slag off other posters and show it “proves” they support BNP / Islamists etc is beyond me. Indulge in debate, not insult. And grow up, for God’s sake.

A voter’s personal revulsion at a politician is certainly a good enough reason for not voting for him/her. But a politician’s personal feeling of finding something creepy is certainly not a sufficient reason for building a policy or legislating on it.

Immigration is a big issue, and it is also true that it has been swept under the carpet by the mainstream parties, but it is not the only issue. If Griffin had been asked what his party’s policy would be on education, health and transport, and if he had been asked what bright talents his party contained who would be able to tackle those portfolios, that would (I believe) have confirmed that his cupboard was bare.

As it is, QT did establish that Griffin has no integrity and that his party has no respectability. In that respect I think the QT audience, and the comments from the panel and Dimbleby gave him what he deserved. But giving him what he deserved made him an easy target, and there’s no easy answer to the idea that attacking him made him seem an underdog.

In France, when the the chips were down (in 2002) and the electorate had to decide between a fascist presidential candidate and a crook, they voted overwhelmingly for the crook. In the first round Chirac’s majority was relatively slender: only 19.88% of the total vote against Le Pen’s 16.86%. In the second round Le Pen’s vote increased to only 17.79%, whereas Chirac’s soared to 82.21%.

We are talking about the fundamental rights of a democracy for free speech and freedom under the law of this nation. Democracy always has to walk a fine line and thats what makes it different from a totalitarian dictatorship. When the BNP says Islam is on the rise and it is not compatible with the British Way of Life, they have some truths in that. If the main three parties said it they would be called racist; look at Jack Straw’s sensible comments; is it right that so many women are now cloaked and masked from society? Should all kids get Halal meat in school because it would upset the muslims if they didnt not? (I’m suprised the Animal Right Groups havn’t got onto that one!) And then we have the Homophobic Pope being invited into the UK when Right wing Dutch politicians have been banned; now many crimes against humanity is the RC church responsible for in the past and present, ie child abuse, sexual health in Africa? Yet in a democracy, we allow freedom of religion. HOWEVER, any group which sets out to undermine the freedom of a democratic state should be dealt with under the full force of the law, no matter what religion or political party they are. And lastly, when was the last time any LGBT person commited a suicide bombing or other act of terror against their fellow citizens in the name of Gay Rights? Nuff said!

Truth – the word gay was around 50 years go just with a different meaning.

I was going to quote “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” but as I have read more and had a change to think about it I am not sure that I want to be friends with either the BNP who will revoke our gay friendly laws or extremists from any religion who would execute me or torture me.

I don’t have a problem with people moving to this country, however I am firmly of the opinion that if you choose to move to another country you should embrace that countries culture, way of life, laws and to an extent the religion of that country. That goes for the masses who have destroyed the costa del sole’s of the world as well as the masses who have come to the UK. Why would you want to move from an country but take it with you?

I have written about Oswald Mosley even though I was only a Baby when Mosley was interned for being pro-nazi during the war. The old films of Mosley showed him and all his ‘Black shirts’ (Later banned.) as very agressive and will step on you rather than walk round you. Mosley was married into the Mitford family and the Mitfords were known nazi sypmathises. Even in the 1960s the youngest Mitford daughter clashed with a Jewish Taxi driver. Sh was photographed giving the nazi salute. The Isreali Government thought the Taxi driver was being constantly discriminated against, so they offered the Taxi driver sanctuary in Isreal. The offer was not taken up. So, how can any reasonable person love one of the types depicted here?

i am not LGBT and I have no views on the topic as i don’t believe it should be a big subject as human beings should not have to feel ashamed or strengthened by their sexual beliefs. But I do want to say this, as a young person (18 years old) i would love to guarantee that Nick Griffin will ever be elected in my time and i will try my best to support this. I think his views and beliefs are simply repulsive and illogical. I cannot believe that he has a big as following as he has. If he were to get his way with his racial segregation half my lecturers and half of my best friends would be segregated. This makes me incredibly, incredibly sad and i will try my utmost to prevent him and his simply evil ways and this is why I agree with Beth Mellington-Pritchard. Thank you so much for showing the nation that we still have hope in the people of Great Britain. I can’t believe that a political party views people on what they are not who they are. It truly upsets me.