And another thing. It is this two party system that is a big part of the problem. A lot of people don't vote on the issues, they vote the party they have aligned themselves with. But now this year there is a problem. On the one side there are a lot of prejudice people wringing their hands wondering if they should jump to the other side or vote for the dark pigmented guy. And then the other side wonders if they should vote for this guy that might croak in office and we are then stuck with the woman. Oh dear what should we do?

Wish to God the inbetweeners had a chance, when it gets right down to it, inevitably, you're voting for democratic or republican party and there are many things wrong with both parties, enough to make you not wanna vote sometimes.

All spending bills get written in the House of Representatives,approved by the Senate then to the Presidents desk.The President draft no laws,no spending bills. See who shares this blame?

Oh you're absolutely right, they all need to go. I'm not just just some anti-Bush democrat... actually, I voted for Bush, both times... I regret the second time. Anyway, I'm anti-incumbent now. They just all need to go. I wish we could lock them all up in Gitmo to tell you the truth. This batch has done more to harm the country than Bin-Laden ever did.

Ok, now you all are making me think I'm in Beesource.It's become more political than bee talk. :(

Beemaster Adds - I'll leave Beesource mentioned here, normally I don't like mentioning other forums (we are not competitors, we are resources) and this forum is NOT a bee forum , it states in the opening of it, it is for FRIENDLY TALK on any other topic. I suggest if topics other than beekeeping are something you choose to not read, then you stay away from the coffee house.

Lastly, we do not fight here, we debate, discuss, opinionate, but not fight - if you see similarities between us and any other forum - than I feel sorry for you, the amount of work put in here from the members and staff to keep this a place where we can talk about things without fighting and belittling each other must escape you, if you continue to NOT see a difference, then I wish you lucky finding a place where this many members can communicate with the need to bash others with differring points of view. And sadly, if you can't see the difference, then you don't belong here - so I'd either look around to spot the differences or if that is to much trouble, I urge you to find a better place - I can only warn you though, I know this is the friendliest forum, especially knowing we communicate on so many topics.

Stay in BEEKEEPING GENERAL if you have to dig out a topic you'd rather not see, even when the topic is well behaved, friendly and informative. We are not going to CENSOR needlessly every topic, just because our main theme is Beekeeping - you tell me, what is the difference between talking the furture of our country and UFOs, neither have anything to do with Bees, but to many members it is important and allowed as long as we all respect each other.

This is going to be a tough election for most of us - I just don't believe either candidate or party have the answers we need to fix these problems we all are suffering today. Not saying that anyone does have the answers, but the sad part of it all is that after 8 years to come up with ideal characters, this is the best the system could come up with - not saying we didn't have our part in the nominations process - I think we still need a national primary day, then we can all have a hand in the blame. When trillions of dollars disappear over night on what is often just opinion of the value of the dollar, or speculators who profit by billions by making irresponcible predictions that feather their own pockets. Economically I don't see too much light at the end of this tunnel - especially in the short term, but bailing our lenders and insurance companies is not the answer - look at GM and Ford and now Sirius and XMs merge has created a penny stock from two companies who ranged from $8 to $20 a share and now they (combined) have a value last week as low as $.84c a share. None of this makes sense, the dollar is only worth what we think of it on any given day, and day after day we see the rest of the world finding more reason to hate us and what better way to kill the American Dream than to kill the American Dollar.

I'm as confused as much as each of you - we have candidates who can promise us great things, only to be shot down by Congress. They have a loop hole and they bank on it making the major promises impossible to act on. To hear on candidate say his ENERGY INDEPENCE PLAN is to "Over the next 20 year reduce foreign oil depence by 10% to 20%" is not a solution, it isn't even a bandaid, but we listen to the slimmed-down version that only feeds us words like Reducion of foreign fuels and we miss the lame amount of reduct they hope to be the BEST CASE SCENARIO - literally as in most elections, we are voting for the lesser of two evils, sadly though in these economic times, we have hair splitting differences on who could actually pull off any changes that make a difference.

I won't even mention the candidates, we know them from all the dirt networks could dig up and that in itself is a sad thing. I can only hope that EVERYONE see every debate and then using whatever you think BEST may help us, choose the team that we think will do the least damage - sadly, sometimes the choice is between the EVIL of TWO LESSERS, not the other way around.

The miracle that makes us Americans is though that no matter who wins, we accept it and hope and pray that the four or 8 years will somehow bring improvements that make our country a brighter highlight in history's books!

_______________ Just now......

I was asked in PM if CAMPAIGNING was acceptable here in the forums - I don't think it is a good idea - nor do I see anything here campaigning, just FRIENDLY and opinionated talk about the NEXT PRESIDENT and VP of the US surely is allowed and in my mind favored and constructive.

Anyone who has an issue with talking politics (again as long as it is friendly and not attacks on people ideals or feelings) then if you still feel it is a topic in coffee house that shouldn't be here, then STAY AWAY from the coffee house - or any topic that prompts you to feel strongly enough to question whether something belongs or not.

These forums are friendly, thus we allow a lot of topics to be covered here because we know the members are adult enough to communicate without insulting others, that is what makes our forum the best around. Our mods here understand what can flaire up and they handle such issues promptly, often before members even see an issue spinning out of control. The rest of the monitoring done here is by members themselves, usually making every effort to be kind to others and still get their own points across.

This forum in particular is our social experiment that we live here, limiting some topics is necessary, but most (thankfully) play-out and involve the ideas of many - and just for the record, if you say you like or dislike a candidate for any office is NOT campaigning, it is opinion and hopefully just not "He or She would stink" but elaboration on WHY the poster thinks so.

We are adults here, behaving in a means that we would not fear or fel shame if our children read what we type. Self control and expression are two things we all share here, and in that, we all learn that ageeing to disagree is a powerful human trait that embodies the best of civility. Hope that answers the question.

Please enjoy the forum, and if it has helped you in any way, we hope that a small donation can be made to support our FULLY member supported forum. You will never see advertisements here, and that is because of the generous members who have made our forum possible. We are in our second decade as a beekeeping forum and all thanks to member support. At the top right of every page is a donations link. Please help if you can.

I like the button! I like Obama too but not for a president. My wife is an Obama delegate. I like McCain. But,.....I REALY like Palin!...She's BEAUTIFUL!!I want a button with her on it!your friend,john

BM, folks don't need to come down here if it offends them. i think most of us do a good job of keeping it under control. we have had some pretty good discussions in this forum!!

off to galvaston. may not get back here for a time. take care 8-)

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

Hey Kathy! You'll be back in time to vote though, wont you?Dont forget, I live right off I-44, near the red river if you wanna stop by for a minute or two! I agree with one important issue mentioned here. I doesnt matter who gets elected, We ( the U.S.) are in deep trouble...It reminds me of having a credit card...You get a card....You use it, thinking that you're gonna make payments every month...before you know it, you can only afford to make the minimum payment...so you get another credit card, do cash withdrawals to get cash to put in your bank account to cover the payment on the first credit card...and on and on and on... get it? America kept on getting into debt, and just kinda figured she would catch up eventually, and just cant make the payments anymore on her accounts due. The govt. kinda set an example for us people to think the way we do about credit. Also, the banks that issue credit cards are bad too..I mean. how many invitations do you guys get every week for a new credit card? I get one or more every day! The big banks were getting rich on us, but not anymore, because we just stopped paying them, plain and simple. I just dont see any way we're coming out of this mess. If The govt asked me to pay a one time big tax to get us out of debt I would be for that...But I dont trust the govt..I think they would get the tax money and waste it instead of paying debts.Man, we are in so much trouble.... only a miracle can straighten this out! :-\Oh yeh,....Not to mention what happens if Arabia cuts off the oil flow to us :'(

I need the "Hoops and Yoyo" bee song..That makes me HAPPY at times like these!

This is what I don't get. There are all those people that live down there that can do what ever it is you are going down there for. They don't want all the folks that live there to go back because it isn't safe, but they will get volunteers from all over the place to go in there. :?

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:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

Both Palin and Obama lack experience- Too many shortcomings to mention as well. Nonetheless, people profess to want change-this would be change-people w/o experience.Personally, i dont like mean spirited people and Palin strikes me as such(which is why i dont think shes attractive-). MCain is old and obviously had a hard life. Palin is more likely to be president than Biden, so the choice might actually be between Palin and Obama. Whomever wins, they are in for a hurting situation. This economy is not finished tanking, and the rest of the globe has yet to be affected as much as they will in the future econimically speaking. Times will get worse before they get better.

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"The more complex the Mind, the Greater the need for the simplicity of Play".

Both Palin and Obama lack experience- Too many shortcomings to mention as well. Nonetheless, people profess to want change-this would be change-people w/o experience

Well,we've seen firsthand what all the "experienced" career politicians has gotten us.I do believe our forefathers were trying to create a citizen republic form of government.Not a bunch of people experienced at taking the people for all they can. How many of these people would live on the wages that the people who pay their salaries earn?Make them live off social security or retirement plans that their constituents have and career politicians will be a thing of the past.

I must comment on Palin as a vice presidential candidate. I agree she seems mean spirited and lacking judgment like trying to order her ex brother in law be fired. I was more upset by the fact there are many qualified women candidates and choosing one who is not qualified (Palin) is really an insult to women.It gets worse when you actually listen to her view points. Her views take women's rights back 30 years. I don't want to go back thirty years when some jobs where really only available to men (and I am not talking about being a sperm donor.) Fire fighters Police officers and many others.

Nominating someone so unqualified and extreme is not likely to build the compromising that is necessary to get this country back on track and out of the recession. We are feeling it hard in California.

remember the judges. the next prez may get to pick 3 supremes, never mind the other fed judges.

in League City. they needed drivers. don't think i'll be here the whole time, but who knows.

ttyal !!!!!!!

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

I must comment on Palin as a vice presidential candidate. I agree she seems mean spirited and lacking judgment like trying to order her ex brother in law be fired. I was more upset by the fact there are many qualified women candidates and choosing one who is not qualified (Palin) is really an insult to women.It gets worse when you actually listen to her view points. Her views take women's rights back 30 years. I don't want to go back thirty years when some jobs where really only available to men (and I am not talking about being a sperm donor.) Fire fighters Police officers and many others.

Nominating someone so unqualified and extreme is not likely to build the compromising that is necessary to get this country back on track and out of the recession. We are feeling it hard in California.

My .02 I thought the choice of Palin for vice president was one of the greatest political choices ever. The choice brought an old man back into the race and actually scared the other side. I talked to my girlfriend about it, she follows politics a lot more closely than I. She is energized by the choice she goes on endlessly about what a great women Mrs. Palin is. Why is it people are attacking this women? You would think the party that supposedly supports the minorities would support her instead they dig through her emails bash her daughter, and cry that she is a poor mother because she has a career, therefore ignoring her family. Those are the same selling points her political rivals champion when one of their own is running. Mrs. Palin is being raked over the coals for being a Republican plain and simple. Down here in the annals of the U.S. we recently had two democratic women in office one as governor and one still as senator these points Mrs. Palin are criticized for, are the exact points these other democratic ladies ran on, and were elected on. Now when a Republican runs she is bashed. Hypocrisy reigns among the democrats.

My .02 I thought the choice of Palin for vice president was one of the greatest political choices ever. The choice brought an old man back into the race and actually scared the other side. I talked to my girlfriend about it, she follows politics a lot more closely than I. She is energized by the choice she goes on endlessly about what a great women Mrs. Palin is. Why is it people are attacking this women? You would think the party that supposedly supports the minorities would support her instead they dig through her emails bash her daughter, and cry that she is a poor mother because she has a career, therefore ignoring her family. Those are the same selling points her political rivals champion when one of their own is running. Mrs. Palin is being raked over the coals for being a Republican plain and simple. Down here in the annals of the U.S. we recently had two democratic women in office one as governor and one still as senator these points Mrs. Palin are criticized for, are the exact points these other democratic ladies ran on, and were elected on. Now when a Republican runs she is bashed. Hypocrisy reigns among the democrats.

Charles Krauthammer wrote a column about how at the Democrat's Convention, other than Michele, there was not one person to stand behind Obama and vouch for him. Not one. And his past has been kept hidden from America. Who are his closest friends. Where are the people who have known this man for twenty years? Why have they not come forward like all of Mc Cain's friends and Palin's friends. We should all be asking ourselves who is this guy? We will never find out all about Obama, he is the media's protected selected choice, they will do no digging on him but can afford 30 investigators in Alaska to see if Palin ever kicked her cat.