Trouble logging in?If you can't remember your password or are having trouble logging in, you will have to reset your password. If you have trouble resetting your password (for example, if you lost access to the original email address), please do not start posting with a new account, as this is against the forum rules. If you create a temporary account, please contact us right away via Forum Support, and send us any information you can about your original account, such as the account name and any email address that may have been associated with it.

Not to mention that the Major just up and left to pursue things on her own... I was under the understanding that she couldn't just... leave.

Well, it's rather uncertain.

Major's cybernetic body does not belong to her. Apart from her ghost, she is, aparently a property of the multi-national corporation that has created her, Megatech Body Co. Thus, she cannot legally quit Section 9 and go on doing what she wants to do.

That doesn't mean that she can't just escape into obscurity and evade puruit. She is an accomplished hacker and surely can erase her traces, if she wishes to do so.

As for the film, it's fairly nice for a self-contained story and I never took it for anything more. As usual with Kamiyama, it's generously peppered with visual and textual quotations from Shirow (the obvious last scene, for example), which I always found cute about Mr. Director.

It's not exactly earth-shattering, though, because, after all, it's just a SAC film. I think it neither attempted, not wished to be really groundbreaking, but rather it was just a continuation of the SAC story. Another episode from the lives of the Section 9, nothing more, nothing less. The ending is sufficienty open to allow the continuation of the SAC timeline, as Mitsuhisa Ishikawa has promised.

It's clear that the Major has loads of money, it is shown in all the series, but it the extent of which never hit me until Solid State.
She is clearly not in Section 9 for the money, do they ever tell us why she is in it?

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.

I don't know why we are using spoilers in a thread that shouldn't need them, so I'm posting this in the open...

It was my understanding that the Tachikoma's backup was used for the Uchikoma's in the end... so even if the Major used their backup in hers, the presence of their "ghost" is still rather strange...

Spoiler:

The redcoat tech and Batou discussed their difficulty in training the Uchikoma AIs to match the Tachikoma's level of sentience. They are not using the All Tachikoma Memories archive, the Uchikomas are brand new machines with basic AIs and no ghost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

Ah I see.

Spoiler:

Tachikoma's coming back was a big surprise, an explanation would have been nice, but it's not unexpected or impossible, they did put all their memories in the piece of cyberspace they secured at the end of SAC 2.

Spoiler:

In fact, I believe the Major says in a throwaway line about having dredged their memory unit from cyberspace when Batou first encounters them, something the english translation misses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

Ah I see.

Spoiler:

But than again an explanation like "leaving because of a man" would have been too sappy and it would have destroyed her image. I though she found him at the start of the movie, to tell you the truth.

Spoiler for Kugutsu Mawashi theory and MAJOR SPOILERS!:

Maybe she actually did. Remember that supercomputer she keeps around, and how she was not the least surprised that the generic Koshiki lookalike body apparently went and took a walk by itself when she passed it by in the lift? She remarked that she could only do two bodies at the same time (Chroma+Young Motoko->Virus Delivery Guy+Young Motoko->Virus Delivery Guy+Original body), so she was not controlling it. Maybe she was really sharing the stable of bodies with Kuze while shacking up with him the past two years. Of course, that would means that he was really the one who impersonated Koshiki's identity, did everything behind her back, and actually dumped her in that one scene when he makes his getaway. (The "the collective subconscious dunn'ed it" line is the one he wants Section 9 to buy).That could also explain her sudden change of heart to return to Section 9, and her uncharacteristic melancholy at the ending.

Maybe she actually did. Remember that supercomputer she keeps around, and how she was not the least surprised that the generic Koshiki lookalike body apparently went and took a walk by itself when she passed it by in the lift? She remarked that she could only do two bodies at the same time (Chroma+Young Motoko->Virus Delivery Guy+Young Motoko->Virus Delivery Guy+Original body), so she was not controlling it. Maybe she was really sharing the stable of bodies with Kuze while shacking up with him the past two years. Of course, that would means that he was really the one who impersonated Koshiki's identity, did everything behind her back, and actually dumped her in that one scene when he makes his getaway. (The "the collective subconscious dunn'ed it" line is the one he wants Section 9 to buy).That could also explain her sudden change of heart to return to Section 9, and her uncharacteristic melancholy at the ending.

Ehh she does give a WTF glance at the generic looking dude from what I could see. She might just not have realized that it was one of her cyber bodies, because of the whole subconscious/conscious mind thing. If what you say is true, he would have had no reason to let her see her face in the end. It would just have been, hey look it's me, got ya. Further more, when he reveals her face to her, he isn't speaking through Motoko for the rest to hear, because her mouth doesn't move. Tachikoma also doesn't let Section 9 know what they said to each other in the end.

Spoiler:

I believe that Motoko was fighting herself in the end, killing part of herself, Kuze wasn't a master hacker in the first place, another case of the stand alone complex I imagine.

Ehh she does give a WTF glance at the generic looking dude from what I could see. She might just not have realized that it was one of her cyber bodies. If what you say is true, he would have had no reason to let her see her face in the end. It would just have been, hey look it's me, got ya.

Spoiler:

I believe that Motoko was fighting herself in the end, Kuze wasn't a master hacker in the first place, stand alone complex.

Spoiler:

WTF is an understated reaction when some strange guy walks out of your supposedly secret hideout, IMO.

He did have some hacking skills among his other talents. Remember how he wrote that program to secretly hack the bank accounts to raise the funds to buy plutonium, and how ran a secured cyberbrain hub that the Major had to jack a refugee to break through? He wasn't a wizard hacker like the Major, but as Batou says, the Kugutsu Mawashi abductions was shoddy and not the work of a master hacker by any means. The Kugutsu Mawashi also admits himself he is no match for the Major.
Also, he is the only person that the Major knows that has the gall _as well_ the uncanny charisma needed to pull something like this off, not to mention he already has experience with such cyberbrain hub conspiracies in 2nd GIG.

The theory also stays true to the theme of Motoko having "married" the Puppetmaster at the end of the original Ghost in the Shell manga and movie.

How do you than explain the time constraints. If the Major found him at the start of the movie, he couldn't have lived with her for two year, hence would not have had access to the generic cyber body at the major's place.

ps: I edited my previous post while you were respond to the original, with some more arguments to support my case.

How do you than explain the time constraints. If the Major found him at the start of the movie, he couldn't have lived with her for two year, hence would not have had access to the generic cyber body at the major's place.

ps: I edited my previous post while you were respond to the original, with some more arguments to support my case.

Spoiler:

I meant that she had found Kuze before the movie starts. (And possibly the reason she decides to leave Section 9 to live on the net in the first place as a lifestyle change that didn't work out), not her first lines in SSS. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

She told Batou and the Tachikoma to backup the record of her dive. Batou's may have been erased, though when the Kugutsu Mawashi messed with Section 9's minds to forget about the hack(and what else, I wonder?), while she was blacked out, and possibly that Tachikoma's also, or maybe it was covering for the Major out of loyalty (or out of fear at his or her vengeance.).

Spoiler:

If that's the case it would be a simple matter to switch places with the Major, let her die, assume her identity and carry on to fulfill his goals. As his most formidable opponent would than be dead, he would have been free to do what ever he wanted.

Spoiler:

It's not entirely clear that it is possible to access another's memories and ghost simply by inhabiting their bodies, whatever what Paz's insane ex says. Impersonating Koshiki was possible because not even his colleagues ever knew him for long, or very well, impersonating a character like the Major is another matter.

Aramaki accuses Munei of exploiting refugees by running sweatshops at the Sacred Citizen workshop zone, which would be yet another motive for to eliminate him, if Kuze were the Kugutsu Mawashi (and the only reason to even mention refugees there I can think of, other than the reference to Super Spartan)

Kuze was a Japanese citizen to begin with. He's just the type who simply can't leave injustices alone, so goes around starting pet projects to right them. The refugees of Dejima just happened to be one of them. That project was resolved because the government has started pushing for full citizenship for the refugees,

Also, he might have some sentiment left for the origami girl of his youth to not simply kill her outright.

If that's the case it would be a simple matter to switch places with the Major, let her die, assume her identity and carry on to fulfill his goals. As his most formidable opponent would than be dead, he would have been free to do what ever he wanted. I only know of two people who have been able to hack Batou and we all know that they are extremely skilled people. It is not something I can attribute to Kuze. Motives are also not Kuze like, he didn't care about Japan, but about refugees. If he would do anything it would be to help them and not the people of Japan.

I'm sorry glyph, but there is no real evidence to support that Kuze is alive.

This, which I believe only the major heard anyway, as you don't see her lips moving as it is said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyph

Spoiler for Kugutsu Mawashi theory and MAJOR SPOILERS!:

(The "the collective subconscious dunn'ed it" line is the one he wants Section 9 to buy).

does not hold with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyph

Spoiler:

She told Batou and the Tachikoma to backup the record of her dive. Batou's may have been erased, though when the Kugutsu Mawashi messed with Section 9's minds to forget about the hack(and what else, I wonder?), while she was blacked out, and possibly that Tachikoma's also, or maybe it was covering for the Major out of loyalty (or out of fear at his or her vengeance.).

Because if you have complete control, you don't have to make up a lie, meaning why erase a memory when you already put the blame on something else.

ps: Another interesting note why I believe that no lie was told at the end. At the end we hear about the "Vanishing Mediator", another referents to one of Fredric Jameson's writings.

For the sake of clarification, my other question is: is there really something in the movie that says (or hints) that Kuze is indeed alive, or are you guys just speculating?

There's no evidence.In fact,I think the end of 2nd gig was clear,he's dead.There's not even a hint.

Spoiler:

I think the "puppetmaster" was a SAC born from multiples egos,something like the common will of the those who wants justice.In my translation,the puppetmaster ask "how many self-righteous asses do you know?"and then several faces appear including the chief,batou,Kuze and Goudo and of course Kusanagi.

For her reasons to leave:
She was probably shoked by the death of Kuze right under her nose.I would be very angry with the system if something like this happened.

I haven't watched SSS yet, so I can't really offer much in the ongoing discussion, but aren't these comments somewhat contradicting each other?

Take it like this, I thought he was found at the start of the movie, but there is no evident to support this. So I thought wrong. Time constraint would have it that my "guess" on what the Major found at the start of the movie was wrong.

There's no evidence.In fact,I think the end of 2nd gig was clear,he's dead.There's not even a hint.

Quote:

That she found Kuze before SSS is pure speculation on my part, but there _is_ foreshadowing that he might have survived 2nd GiG.

Spoiler:

Remember how when he and the Major decided to try to move their ghosts in cyberspace, then afterwards, she notices that Kuze has bitten into his apple, while she had left hers untouched (think temptation of Adam and Eve analogy, or the Death Note OP)? That and his last words "I'll be going first." hints that he actually succeeded in doing so when the Major chickened out. The huge tracts the Tachikoma had to clear was to accomodate all the refugees and even the Tachikoma apparently managed to find some place to stash their memories out of the blue. Also, they forgot to knock out Kuze's cyberbrain, so he could attempt his feat anytime after his arrest, and had nothing to lose by trying by that point.

Motoko admits one of things she was searching for on the net was "that special someone". Clearly, she believes that Kuze is alive somewhere, the question is only whether it was wishful thinking on her part, an whether if she actually found her.

Quote:

Spoiler:

I think the "puppetmaster" was a SAC born from multiples egos,something like the common will of the those who wants justice.In my translation,the puppetmaster ask "how many self-righteous asses do you know?"and then several faces appear including the chief,batou,Kuze and Goudo and of course Kusanagi.

Spoiler:

That hallucination was part of the virtual maze the Kugutsu Mawashi trapped her in, like how his face automatically pieced itself back together. My intepretation was she was going over in her thoughts the people she knows that match that profile, then it stops and lingers longest over Kuze who is the most likely match, then she drops to her own image out of shock and denial.

[spoiler]
For her reasons to leave:
She was probably shoked by the death of Kuze right under her nose.I would be very angry with the system if something like this happened.

[spoiler]

Spoiler:

That does not explain why she suddenly changed her mind to return after her encounter with the Kugutsu Mawashi, when she made it clear that was not going to happen just before that.

I think the "puppetmaster" was a SAC born from multiples egos,something like the common will of the those who wants justice.In my translation,the puppetmaster ask "how many self-righteous asses do you know?"and then several faces appear including the chief,batou,Kuze and Goudo and of course Kusanagi.

Don't forget Togusa. Just think who was the only person who had intimate knowledge about those people, who was the only person that knew them all.

I loved that scene between Batou, Togusa and his daughter, it was pretty intense. I would have loved it even more, if Batou would have done a Togusaaaaa!

So, if Kusanagi and *someone* (be it Kuze or some weird antropomorphised purely cyber SAC) are coexisting together, does that mean that the ending of SSS was a highly obfuscated equivalent to the ending of the original GITS manga?

Additionally, with that man's body leaving Motoko's body stash, did anyone feel like this is all very much alike to what happened in Man-Machine Interface?

Spoiler for MMI:

I am referring to the fact that Motoko Aramaki thought herself to be real successor to Motoko Kusanagi, but in fact there were many other Motoko bodies running around without Aramaki's knowledge and they were all (sometimes unconsciously) a part of the ultimate Motoko Goddess Being.

I am referring to the fact that Motoko Aramaki thought herself to be real successor to Motoko Kusanagi, but in fact there were many other Motoko bodies running around without Aramaki's knowledge and they were all (sometimes unconsciously) a part of the ultimate Motoko Goddess Being.

Yes, something like that only in this case to a somewhat lesser extent and reversed, plus the part of her consciousness she was unconscious of died in the end. Died, moved on, no longer part of her, you can make of it whatever you want. Her consciousness only split over two consciousnesses of which one was unconscious of the other, while the other was conscious of the collective consciousness they shared, but was unable to directly influence its counterpart. In simpler terms she was fighting herself and the better part of her died/moved to a next realm of consciousnes.(or whatever, it went towards the light) This is my interpretation of events.

This all stems from a spiritual concept that all humans share a common collective consciousness that we are unaware of, that collective consciousness is what religion believes to be god.

The interpretation I give is partly based on this spiritual concept of the collective consciousness. The way I see it is that the Majors consciousness has become so large that there is a coexistences of ego's within that one consciousness. These ego's manifest themselves when she takes controls of one of her different cyber bodies. She is consciously aware that she can split her consciousness over two cyber bodies, not just controlling them at the same time, but being them at the same time. Essentially being two egos/people at the same time, but being the same consciousness as she can control both. Yet part of her runs around in another cyber body, this is something she is unconscious of, she can't control, which points to another consciousness, which (consiousness 2) points out to her that they are both part of the same collective consciousness.

I must admit, my understanding of the deeper concepts of this film are superficial at best; until I rewatch the movie in depth, the best I could come up with was that the Puppet Master did contain a good part of Motoko's consciousness, gained somewhere along the line as she was existing on the net and manipulating multiple artificial bodies simultaneously. The body of the puppet master and its coming into motion without Motoko's direction... a case of AI self-realization? Supplemented by the consciousnesses of the collective seniority.

Thoughts and questions:

After Batou, why do you guys think Togusa was offered the job as section 9 leader? Of the original crew, he was the most junior in terms of experience and also has the disadvantage/advantage of a nearly completely biological body? Ishikawa sounds like a fitting candidate, though with that said, perhaps they recognized that Togusa had the potential, having a balanced stat-sheet of combat leader, investigator, and a human perspective.

On Kuze: My impression was that he has died, or is no longer in conscious individual existence. Motoko's departure may very well have been as she said; to pursue matters in a way that a law-bound organization like Section 9 cannot. As for her melancholy, may it not have been from the shock of realizing that the culprit she had been after was in fact manifested/spliced from her own subconscious? An unheard of phenomenon before that made her realize vast and unsolvable the growing networked-society is.