...yeah, and? That's not inherently because of religion but because religion was the coping mechanism that particular person found most effective when it came to kicking a bad or destructive habit. It's no different than having needlepoint or jogging or kickboxing or writing poetry as a coping mechanism. That has nothing to do with the inherent goodness of any of those things, just that this one happens to work for that specific person.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 06:01:28 pm by Caitshidhe »

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'The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imaginations.' -- Bertrand Russel

The religious moral code, flawed as it is, is still better than some of the alternatives. Many people have been driven to become better versions of themselves by religion.

"Everything is part of the Great Plan of a benevolent being" can be more comforting than "Shit happens, the universe doesn't care about you", to some people. And, though it goes against my Deeply Held Principles, there are times when comfort is more important than the truth. Rare times. But still.

I suspect this could be done equally well or better by non-religious institutions, but we work with what we have.

If the good things done in the name of religion can't be attributed to religion, then why should the bad things done in the name of religion be attributed to it?

Well, when the bad things are done as part of a literal following of what a particular religious text says, it's not too far off the mark to attribute such a thing to religion. For example, whipping and/or stoning people for extremely minor 'crimes', or forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker, or killing someone for daring to work on the Sabbath.

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'The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imaginations.' -- Bertrand Russel

If the good things done in the name of religion can't be attributed to religion, then why should the bad things done in the name of religion be attributed to it?

Well, when the bad things are done as part of a literal following of what a particular religious text says, it's not too far off the mark to attribute such a thing to religion. For example, whipping and/or stoning people for extremely minor 'crimes', or forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker, or killing someone for daring to work on the Sabbath.

True, to an extent, but following a religion doesn't necessitate following every rule or bit of dogma that religion provides. Everyone picks and chooses pieces of their religion, or has pieces of religion picked and chosen for them.

People who adhere dogmatically enough to a religion to do those kinds of things don't count as "good people doing evil things" to me.

Of course, this becomes a problem in situations where people consider their religion's holy book to be the literal word of god, instead of it being man's record of the divine. This is where things like fundamentalism come from (though by far not the only source of it)

As far as I know, I can't think of any place in the Bible or the Torah where it actually claims the entire book is the literal word of God. Then again the thing's so vast that I'm surprised I know anything about it at all. It, like the serpent being the devil, seems like a relatively modern interpretation.

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Mockery of ideas you don't comprehend or understand is the surest mark of unintelligence.

A lot of churches actually use their resources to help take care of the poor. A lot of them, especially in this country, don't ask if the people are Christian or not because it's more important to be helping people than to convert them.

In Muslim countries, similar acts happen, as charity is one of the pillars of Islam. If you don't give to the poor, they are taught, you are not a true Muslim.

Tammy Faye Messner was one of the first people to bring national attention to the AIDS epidemic of the 80's. She'd bring these people in, junkies and gays, and she'd ask people to help them. Sometimes with prayer, yes, but also to help get them medical care and to try to find a cure. She did this because her understanding of Christianity meant you were supposed to help people, whether or not they were sinners. She might not have approved of their lifestyles, but they needed help, and by God, she was going to help them as best she could.

Have these people also done bad things, often in the name of the same religion? Sure. A lot of the same churches have campaigned against gay marriage. Many Muslims support violence against those they view as heretics. Tammy Faye was, if not directly involved, at least complicit with her husband's mismanagement of Church funds. But they also did some good things for their religions.

The comfort value of a belief is a shaky prop at best. And "They've also done some good" is hardly a ringing endorsement. I often wonder where we'd be if all the human energy, ingenuity and dedication devoted to religion throughout the ages had been directed toward human betterment.

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I am an old man, and I've seen many problems, most of which never happened.

The comfort value of a belief is a shaky prop at best. And "They've also done some good" is hardly a ringing endorsement. I often wonder where we'd be if all the human energy, ingenuity and dedication devoted to religion throughout the ages had been directed toward human betterment.

Even if religion had never been invented, all that energy would have gone towards developing what we would call secular ideologies.

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G-d's Kingdom Is A Hate-Free Zone

Quote from: Reploid Productions

Pardon the interruption, good sir/lady; there are aspects of your behavior that I find quite unbecoming, and I must insist most strenuously that I be permitted to assist in resolving these behaviors through the repeated high-velocity cranial introduction of particularly firm building materials.