fatdudeonabike wrote:I'm quite a slow beginner rider - I've done the Lake Burley Griffin loop in Canberra for the first time today....Three of the four people I'm talking about were lycra wearers, which is only significant because lycra-wearing tends to indicate to me a slightly more serious rider in most cases - these people should know better.

Well, you won't find many serious cyclists around there. Morons riding in groups at speed... are just morons.

PS I find people who bell-ping me for no good reason (and the mere fact that they're overtaking most certainly does not count as a good reason) extremely irritating. I get more of this on the bike than on foot, but it bugs me either way.

Snipped.

So you have never had a bike move over towards you for no reason whilst overtaking? I have , and then been told to ring a bell !!!!I have also seen the effects of riders speaking to peds on the path. It comes out as an authoritative bark, and there is certainly no friendliness in the effort.A bell is non discriminatory at least.

I would assume he bell ping when over taking is just a 'I'm passing mate' which is merely a safety thing for both of you. Last thing you want is to pull out and the guy coming past collecting you. I'd be more concerned (choice of a better word) if they didn't.

Livetoride wrote:I would assume he bell ping when over taking is just a 'I'm passing mate' which is merely a safety thing for both of you. Last thing you want is to pull out and the guy coming past collecting you. I'd be more concerned (choice of a better word) if they didn't.

Yeah, however some peds think you are dinging as to tell them to get out of the way.

PS I find people who bell-ping me for no good reason (and the mere fact that they're overtaking most certainly does not count as a good reason) extremely irritating. I get more of this on the bike than on foot, but it bugs me either way.

Snipped.

So you have never had a bike move over towards you for no reason whilst overtaking? I have , and then been told to ring a bell !!!!I have also seen the effects of riders speaking to peds on the path. It comes out as an authoritative bark, and there is certainly no friendliness in the effort.A bell is non discriminatory at least.

Nope, can't say as I have seen what you describe. I have seen riders veer to the centre of the path on hearing a bell ping. This and similar incidents mean that I do not think bell-pinging helps safety in any way. It's a figleaf.

high_tea wrote:The way I look at it, using a bell to try and avoid a collision is using it wrong. A bell is about as effective as voice for asking people to move out of my way. That's all either is good for.

A bell (or horn or other device) is a warning device. To warn others of your approach. To warn them to ride/walk in a predictable manner, so that you may overtake or pass by them safely. There is no 'demand' to get out of the way involved, and certainly the only way it avoids a collision is by warning them of your approach.

To do this I would always ring the bell 20 metres or more before I pass the pedestrian, maybe as little as 10 metres before passing a cyclist (different closing speed). A second ring for pedestrians if I feel they have not heard the first time.

Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.

biker jk wrote: In contrast, the rule about using a bell to warn pedestrians doesn't really contribute to safety versus using your voice and communicating.

The funny bit is there is no rule about bells, only about a 'warning device'. Does your voice fit this definition??

Even funnier there is no rule requiring you to use the warning device, only to have it fitted somewhere on your bike - on the seat post? on the front fork stay?

It depends on the full wording of that rule - if it talks about a necessity for your bike to be fitted with a warning device, then no, a voice wouldn't fit this definition. You can't fit your bike with a voice.

I agree that the law hasn't caught up - or at least, public awareness hasn't. Why do we have shared paths springing up everywhere when people aren't educated on how to use them properly? With the increase in people riding bikes over the last few years, and the increase in shared paths, where are the public service advertisements about keeping left, maintaining awareness, keeping dogs on leashes and what a bike bell signifies?

wellington_street wrote:What a moron. Glad there's no peds around at that time.

You know what I see from that video.

The camera rider and the other rider in yellow, riding too slow for the guy on the mountain bike. So he decides to pass, and the other 2 decide to be heroes up the pace to not let him pass easily.

It is obvious from the video that they both started to increase the pace once the mountain bike rider got beside them. Then wouldn't let him move in front. Their ego got in the way. All morons in that video.

Fair call, I didn't notice that the first time I watched it. All I saw was the MTB taking forever to overtake, in the face of several oncoming cyclists who had to take evasive action onto the pedestrians only portion of the shared path. Boognoos can probably confirm the scenario for us as he was there...

wellington_street wrote:Fair call, I didn't notice that the first time I watched it. All I saw was the MTB taking forever to overtake, in the face of several oncoming cyclists who had to take evasive action onto the pedestrians only portion of the shared path. Boognoss can probably confirm the scenario for us as he was there...

I certainly didn't accelerate to block off the MTB rider. He just came blasting through not content to ride in single file like the other bikes were on a narrow section of the shared path in Lane Cove. Further up the hill the other rider did give it a bit of a squirt I think.

I concede that while I didn't make it easy for him to push in front of me I didn't alter my speed anymore than I normally would when accelerating from the crossing at the start of the video. Impatience and rudeness can occur with any form of transport. I see the whole gamut every day.

merlin6014 wrote:Where do you get one of those little old skool cycling horns that make the "di-do-di" noise (you know like the one on the iphone text tone aptly enough called "horn"). I would be proud to sport such a horn.

Summernight - I like the idea of a horn that wont work in anger. One way to help stop you getting hot under the collar. I think I want one of those.

Personally I find that a bell or voice used in passing is very helpful. Especially as I am normally the person being passed. I'm still relatively new to cycling and am still learning to master all those skills that so many of you learnt as a child. Consequently when I am riding if I let my concentration and awareness drop a little bit I can suddenly find myself meandering across the path. When someone alerts me to the fact that they are coming up from behind and passing I can make sure that I do my best and stick to the left.

When I actually get the awesome opportunity to pass another rider I will always let them know I am passing as I know how much I appreciate the warning myself.

I usually ding about 15 metres behind. If they have an ipod or similar in, or just look vague or old or distracted I also yell bike coming about 10 metres back. Some people give a quick hand wave on my first ding so i know they're okay.

I call "passing" about two seconds back. Close enough to be heard, gives them a second to become aware but not too much time to dive across the path etc.

Only time I've been caught out is when going to pass another cyclist, called out 'passing' and he decided to rubberneck and drifted into my path. The concept of "hold your line" didn't occur to him, obviously!

Had a dumb cyclist today - unusually hard to pass because he sat on the right hand side of the on-road lane and didn't move over even when he knew I was there and wanted to pass, halfway up the next hill he sprinted past me, and once over the top did the roadblock manoeuvre again.

wellington_street wrote:Fair call, I didn't notice that the first time I watched it. All I saw was the MTB taking forever to overtake, in the face of several oncoming cyclists who had to take evasive action onto the pedestrians only portion of the shared path. Boognoss can probably confirm the scenario for us as he was there...

I certainly didn't accelerate to block off the MTB rider. He just came blasting through not content to ride in single file like the other bikes were on a narrow section of the shared path in Lane Cove. Further up the hill the other rider did give it a bit of a squirt I think.

I concede that while I didn't make it easy for him to push in front of me I didn't alter my speed anymore than I normally would when accelerating from the crossing at the start of the video. Impatience and rudeness can occur with any form of transport. I see the whole gamut every day.

I was pretty dumb today - almost went through a red because I tried to anticipate the light sequence (the turning tram got priority and I misread the route number. ). Stopped myself before it was too late but I must have looked really dumb as I was stopped for the light, started rolling and then had to stop again before entering the intersection. I gave myself an internal smack to not do that again. Bad bad.

Just the usual morons again this morning who display the 'Must Get In Front' syndrome...queued traffic means he can't get past on the left - no problem, just ride down the wrong side of the road. Oh carp, traffic's starting to move - what do I do now? Slot in behind a car? Nah, I'll just try and out pedal them, then go straight ahead in front of a right turner who luckily saw your asshattery and slowed down to let you cut in front.

There was also a moron riding down William St, straddling the lane separation line (it's a two-lane section southbound). Drivers were as confused as I was - no idea why he didn't sit in primary position of either lane where he can be seen and other road users can be sure of his intentions.

I have a bell on 2 out of my 3 bikes. In my mind, on a PSP the safety of all the other users is my responsibility - that is how I interpret "give way". That means that I adjust my speed and passing distance in order to be able to safely deal with any unexpected behaviour without a collision. The bell, or voice, is used purely to improve the predictability of behaviour from the other users and make my job a bit easier. So this means, every time I come up behind someone I am making a conscious judgement as to whether I think the bell will improve their predictability or not. A significant minority of people will react unpredictability to the sound of a bell. They will jump to the right into your path, or look over their shoulder and drift across right (especially kids or other less experienced cyclists). When someone is walking or cycling steadily on the left side of the path and appear to be aware of their surroundings, they are already predictable and I feel that a bell might make some of them more unpredictable. I will ring the bell for small children, people with dogs, people looking a bit oblivious and so on, as they are already unpredictable and the bell will probably improve things. On my bike without a bell, because I don't have a loud voice I need to adjust my speed a bit more so that I have time to call out without feeling like I am shouting at them. Even occasionally with children I don't ring the bell, if they look like they are in good control of their bike and are on the far left of the path. I just slow right down and move to the far right of the path. I have had quite a few instances where ringing the bell has caused a kid that was previously riding along nicely has looked around at me and then drifted over into my path.

But some people do get upset about the absence of a bell and I can understand why. I am sure it is not nice to be startled by an unexpected bike passing by. Unfortunately startling people is the price we pay until we get to the point where all people on shared path recognise the bell as a gentle signal that someone is coming and to stay left. They might be startled, but by the time they are, I have already passed and there is no chance of a collision. While some people continue to react unpredictably to the sound of a bell, I will continue to only use it when I feel it will help and refrain otherwise. Safety is the first priority, the politeness of letting them know I am coming is second. The other day I had a lady complain at me for not using the bell (even though I passed her safely and she had no objection on that front) and I rode along next to her for a bit and tried to explain to her why, but I couldn't get through. It was a polite conversation, but ineffective, so I won't be bothering with that again. Although I have previously had success with that conversation off the bike, with people who when they find out you are a cyclist bring it up as a gripe.

The other time I don't ring the bell is when it really congested and/or very poor lines of sight and I figure I am better keeping my hands on the bars and covering the brakes.

Of course, the bell is occasionally needed for people taking up the whole width of the path. Most of the time it works just fine. Of course you occasionally get the one goes left, one goes right and the third one stops dead centre and looks at you in confusion. But it normally ends with a laugh and a hearty apology, so it is not worth getting bent out of shape over. I try to cut a bit of slack to the mothers out with their prams. The chance to get outside, get some exercise and talk to other new mothers has to be really important for some of them. It is a very rare person who is not prepared to let you by, once they know you are coming.

The two things I do really dislike are the ipod wearers who wander all over the path (the ones keeping left are just fine) and, most of all, people with unleashed dogs.

Mulger bill wrote:Yeah Twiz, get one of these from Velogear and still be ignored by the skullwired cretins...

I got one to pad an order up to free shipping and hung it on my FG pathfighter. It gives my fingers something to do in the absence of shifters. It works a charm with normal polite humans and most animals if you give them a brrrriing about 20-30m back. With the skullwired, this might penetrate...Shaun

What bell is that?

DS

It's the Bell Grande from Velogear Dave. Looks and sounds great and being Italian AND non electrical, you KNOW it will work

Shaun

...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.London Boy 29/12/2011

newie wrote: Safety is the first priority, the politeness of letting them know I am coming is second. The other day I had a lady complain at me for not using the bell (even though I passed her safely and she had no objection on that front) and I rode along next to her for a bit and tried to explain to her why, but I couldn't get through. It was a polite conversation, but ineffective, so I won't be bothering with that again. Although I have previously had success with that conversation off the bike, with people who when they find out you are a cyclist bring it up as a gripe.

That's pretty much my take on it too. Riding safely is the priority, as you rightly point out. It's possible to ride safely and sound a bell roughly never. Because of this, I find the criticism of not having a bell completely unwarranted. The expectation that I should always sound my bell when passing is stupid*. I don't intend to start gratifying the stupid expectations of random strangers anytime soon. Bell + sensible riding is fine with me. No bell + sensible riding too. Take the sensible riding away and I have an issue, bell or no bell. The only thing I need one for, near as I can judge, is meeting some stupid expectations and not breaking a stupid law.

* Among other things, I can't see it scaling worth a tinker's cuss, so it must be some kind of depends-on-the-situation thing and I suspect asking 10 different people when you have to ping your bell would get you 10 different answers

Out on a milk run this evening, I came upon a skullwired meanderer. The Bell Grande at 20m went unheard. At 15m, I detected a slight lift of the head as in: "Did I just hear something external? Nah." At 10m and down to a fast walk pace, a 0.5 second burst from the below finally attracted attention and a vague shuffle to the left(ish).

...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.London Boy 29/12/2011