Do these Roma hold Romanian citizenship? I know that some countries have been iffy (to be it mildly) in their relations with their Roma minorities. Regardless, France should not be doing this. If they are Romanian citizens (and the involvement of the Romanian Government leads me to believe that they are), they have every right to be in France. A member of one EU member state is a member of all EU member states, at least as I understand EU law. Seriously, this reeks of racism, paranoia, and prejudice.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):Apparantly the EU is investigating if this complies with EU law but so much for one Europe and a Europe without borders.

Well let's hold on a second. I mean these deportations appear to be an isolated case in France for now. I'm certainly hoping that this does not set a precedent.

As part of accession to the European Union, Romanians (and Bulgarians) are subject to migration restrictions in some EU countries, of which France is one. France has elected - as is mentioned in the RTE link in the OP - to require Romanians to get a job and lodging within three months or be expelled. These restrictions expire in 2014.

The article also mentions that many Roma in France live in illegally established campsites.

In other words, it's entirely possible the deportees in question have violated the law and France is within its rights to deport them. It's also possible France is targeting Roma Romanians for more...vigorous enforcement, which in turn could be discrimination, or just that their encampments are easier to spot and inspect that non-Roma Romanians living in the cities.

It's pretty backwards either way, I assume they have found some legal way of doing it if they haven't, then I hope they get what's coming to them.

I am not surprised by all that is going on in Europe, North America, etc. With economies from right to left in the gutter, you see xenophobia, deportations, and fear-mongering. Seen it before in my own country during it's economic meltdown.

It's nearly impossible for an EU country to deport EU citizens legally. Is it possible they did some sort of deal with them, e.g. dropping hypothetical charges or paying some money if they agree to leave? Berlin had a problem with a group of several hundred Roma who camped in the middle of townlast year or so, they were given 100 € each and a bus trip to Romania. I don't know how many of them have since returned.

[Edited 2010-08-26 14:32:48]

Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.

Before the American, British and other 'experts' on this topic chime in further, get your facts and a little perspective, please.

EU citizens have freedom of movement without visa restrictions in Schengen zone countries. UK and others do NOT participate and have full border and passport controls. On my French residency permit and Australian passport, I get the third degree without exception from surly UK Border control staff, convinced my only aim in life is to stay more than 3 months and work illegally. Same when I go to the US.

Romania may be in the EU (mistake to take them so soon probably, but history will judge), but has specific constraint on residency in other EU countries. They are allowed to stay 3 months and must leave if they cannot find a job and sustain themselves (much more than I can do in the UK for example).

Over the 8 years I have been in Paris, the population of Roma has exploded, as has their very negative impact. Earlier this year, I would walk less than one hundred metres in my neighbourhood at Opera and pass more than 50 Roma sleeping in every doorway, street corner and even outside my front door, four at a time (They also keep large numbers of dogs as their are ordinances making it difficult to move people on independent of their animals and these animals and the way of street living makes for some nasty mess). During the day they do nothing but ruse tourists, including most who have stayed with me, and locals with innumerable scams, pickpocket in the metro and often use their children as begging bait by forcing them to lie on their laps when the are far too old for this just so they look tragic (they have been stopped by the French police in the past couple of years from doing this as they were even sedating the kids to keep them placid and the state deemed the practice quite rightly to be child abuse). They are not in the slightest interested in legitimate work even though they often speak an adequate level of French.

France has tolerated very patiently their traditional numbers for centuries, and their recent explosion in numbers for years. Street people in France have many more rights than in most other coutries (I could give many examples). There are now HUNDREDS of slums surrounding the major cities of France, thousands or 10's of thousands of new Roma arrived, thousands of associated petty crimes, robberies and burglaries (they stake out buildings during the day to observe the patterns of comings and goings and burglaries always increase when they appear in the neighbourhood). And all of this from people who have overstayed the residency period often by years. They have NO LEGITIMATE right to remain in France and their presence has become a growing problem.

In this case they are being given 300 euros each to return home.

I'm not sure what the best solution is, but France is not in breach of international or EU law any more than the UK is when it sends Oz backpackers home who overstay their visa, something the administration do very regularly. Please direct your wrath equally to the UK and US for their standard procedures.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):Before the American, British and other 'experts' on this topic chime in further, get your facts and a little perspective, please.

Over on Reddit, the various threads on the Roma issue have been going much the same way - Americans getting indignant about the racist/xenophobic treatment of the Roma, and Europeans pointing out that the stereotype of the Roma as sociopathic con men and thieves is, quite often, pretty darn accurate.

Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):I'm not sure what the best solution is, but France is not in breach of international or EU law any more than the UK is when it sends Oz backpackers home who overstay their visa,

Romanians are EU citizens , Kiwi's and Aussies are not. I know people from the Roma community here and they are not the people you describe above, you cant tarnish a whole community.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):
I'm not sure what the best solution is, but France is not in breach of international or EU law any more than the UK is when it sends Oz backpackers home who overstay their visa,

Romanians are EU citizens , Kiwi's and Aussies are not.

You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):I know people from the Roma community here and they are not the people you describe above, you cant tarnish a whole community.

Glad your Roma are different. The thousands here operate mafia fashion as I describe. I speak of what I know and have lived with for 8 years. I am eye witness to all I have said HERE.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 9):You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

But the situation is different . We live in a European Union and EU citizens have rights as members of the Union. Kiwi's/Aussies are not EU citizens of an EU member state. They have the same status as someone from Nigeria or India etc....

Forced deportations of families from a member state is a sad state of affairs IMHO. If they commit a crime then take them to court and charge them , if guilty jail them I have no issue with that but innocent until proven guilty.Are they going to round up all the illegal Moroccans or Algerians and deport them? Why target the Roma?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):Quoting ozglobal (Reply 9):
You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

But the situation is different . We live in a European Union and EU citizens have rights as members of the Union.

Romanians do not have the right to stay more than three months in France without work. This is an accepted part of the current EU legal framework. The situation is NOT different in terms of THIS right.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):orced deportations of families from a member state is a sad state of affairs IMHO.

So is an organized mafia of squatters in huge and growing numbers. (I know your Roma are not like this).

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):If they commit a crime then take them to court and charge them , if guilty jail them I have no issue with that but innocent until proven guilty.

Agree regarding crime. But this thread is about deportation. The 'offense' there is overstaying your residency permit, that is proven.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):Are they going to round up all the illegal Moroccans or Algerians and deport them? Why target the Roma?

If they want to be consistent, they probably should. But if you check, I never said THIS was the solution, I simply clarified the problem and the associated applicable law.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11): I never said THIS was the solution, I simply clarified the problem and the associated applicable law.

I just think its wrong and creates a two tier EU and we are all supposed to be equal with equal rights. This just highlights its not going to be anything other than a loose Union with some rights for some.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):Quoting ozglobal (Reply 11):
I never said THIS was the solution, I simply clarified the problem and the associated applicable law.

I just think its wrong and creates a two tier EU and we are all supposed to be equal with equal rights. This just highlights its not going to be anything other than a loose Union with some rights for some.

Can you imagine if Turkey with its 70 millioin strong population were integrated overnight into the EU with freedom of movement too? I'm all for strong links with Turkey and Romania, but societies cannot reach equilibrium overnight; it is like opening the gates on a series of locks on a canal at the same time. You have to take it one stage at a time...

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):more than 50 Roma sleeping in every doorway, street corner and even outside my front door, four at a time. They also keep large numbers of dogs

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):they do nothing but ruse tourists and locals with innumerable scams, pickpocket in the metro and often use their children as begging bait by forcing them to lie on their laps

For some reason, you remind me of Borat talking about how he was once attacked by Gypsies: "they stole my wife, my plow, and they touch my horse in a very bad way... he got very depressed."

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):Apparantly the EU is investigating if this complies with EU law but so much for one Europe and a Europe without borders. I guess its easy to pick on the Roma communities.

Apparently you haven't read "Animal Farm". 'All EU citizens are equal except some are more equal'.

It seems the Romanian government is collaborating on the issue, unlike Morocco and Algeria.

Today on TV they interviewed one of the expelled and said "very likely, we'll return as soon as we have the chance".

Plus, as someone said already, restrictions will expire on 2014, so it's just a short while until they can legally come back, though living in illegal camping sites or makeshift shanty towns means they will still be kicked around, their children taken away from parents if they don't send them to school and regular medical checks, etc.

I see this very much as a two way street. The roots of the problem go deep, and are very much the result of years of slavery (the Roma in Romania were enslaved until about 1860), and then intense discrimination in housing, education, employment, etc., coupled with a radical failure of leadership in the Romanian Roma communities themselves to do their part in pulling themselves out of the hole they are in. The situation is extra complicated, since, in principle, each country should largely deal with its own problems, and in this particular case, it shouldn't be France's issue to deal with--but on the other hand, discrimination against Roma in most Eastern European countries is bad enough that many want desperately to leave and find a job elsewhere. This, however, does not mean that people can just set up a camp somewhere and not work, and so forth, which is an issue primarily stemming from the particular Romany subculture and complex situation in Romania specifically, rather than Roma from the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia, the former Yugoslavia, etc., who are also despised and mistreated, but who are not the Roma in train stations and "camps" in Western European countries. Nor, however, are all Romanian Roma culturally similar, and certainly not all of them either are beggars and petty criminals!!! Though they share a common Indic language (in many dialects though!) and distant heritage, Roma are an extremely diverse group.

The Europe-wide solution is clear but not easy: on the one hand, Roma, like any other minority, should be held to the same laws as everyone else. On the other hand, there must start to be a real way to end discrimination in sentencing, and beyond that in employment, housing--and most of all: education. As anyone who has worked in a really hopeless housing project/estate/slum/shanty-town in ANY culture knows, breaking the cycle of dependency on welfare, alchohol and drugs, the falring up of corruption and extortion gangs, the lack of valuing of mainstream education, and so forth, is not the snap of a finger, and can take a couple of generations at least. But progress can be made. These are by no means problems unique to the Roma, despite the HUGE numbers of people one runs into ready to tell you they are genetic traits.

I am married to a European Romany woman, and believe me I have seen PLENTY of racism against Roma--BUT if people are in a country illegally and are harassing tourists and committing petty crimes, I have no problem with those particular people being sent back.

Begging with children is also horribly tacky and manipulative, though unfortunately, some of these beggars are the victims of gangmasters who force them into this practice.

Where I get upset is when people make racist generalizations, they are no different to the generalizations that have been made against other groups of recent immigrants or downtrodden people around the world at any time. And I am watching the effects this can have on my kids as they grow up.

Italy fingerprinting people solely due to their Romany ethnicity. That to me is a real problem, and different from France deporting people who are violating specific laws, assuming they are ONLY deporting those people who actually violate laws (including residency laws). On the other hand, people are quick to scapegoat Roma even when they are not responsible as well, because of ingrained prejudices.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):I know people from the Roma community here and they are not the people you describe above, you cant tarnish a whole community.

Thank you very much.

As I've said elsewhere, through my wife's family and friends, I have met hundreds of Roma in Central and Eastern Europe, and I have talked to many others when travelling in many different countries, and the ones we know and associate with are normal people living normal lives, and while many are poor and do manual jobs, many others are middle-class teachers, journalists, businesspeople, musicians, nurses, firemen, medical students, even doctors, lawyers, and academics.

It is a problem when people refuse to notice or acknowledge that all these other people are also "real" Roma and when tarnish the whole group based on their experience being pickpocketed etc, or when people have to hide their ethnicity to get or keep their job or even their place in a school etc.

What on earth is wrong with Europeans that they would give up so much sovereignty? The common currency and Schengen agreement are good and practical, but "EU Law" and "EU Citizens?" Are they kidding? No one is an EU Citizen. You can be French, or German, or British, or Romanian, but you can't be an EU citizen. The French can make and enforce whatever visa, immigration, and citizenship laws they want.

Of course we all are. After Maastricht every national of a EU state member is also an EU national.

"Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship"

And

"It is for each Member State, having due regard to Community law, to lay down the conditions for the acquisition and loss of nationality."

* a right to access to European Parliament, Council, and Commission documents (Article 15).
* a right not to be discriminated against on grounds of nationality within the scope of application of the Treaty (Article 18);
* the right of free movement and residence throughout the Union and the right to apply to work in any position (including national civil services with the exception of those posts in the public sector that involve the exercise of powers conferred by public law and the safeguard of general interests of the State or local authorities (Article 21) for which however there is no one single definition;
* the right to vote and the right to stand in local and European elections in any Member State, other than the citizen's own, under the same conditions as the nationals of that state (Article 22);
* the right to petition the European Parliament and the right to apply to the European Ombudsman in order to bring to his attention any cases of poor administration by the EU institutions and bodies, with the exception of the legal bodies (Article 24); and
* the right to protection by the diplomatic or consular authorities of other Member States when in a non-EU Member State, if there are no diplomatic or consular authorities from the citizen's own state (Article 23);
* the right to apply to the EU institutions in one of the official languages and to receive a reply in that same language (Article 24).

It may not be much, but it indeed exists.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):So each country does set its own laws with regard to citizenship and immigration

As long as they don't contradict EU law. Temporary restrictions to new member states is nothing new, it did happen on the 2004 enlargement (restrictions expire May 1st, 2011) and, obviously, on the 2007 (expiring 2014).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):The French can make and enforce whatever visa, immigration, and citizenship laws they want.

Not totally true. Eu laws and directives, where conflicts arise, takes precedence of national laws

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):You can't be a national of something that isn't a nation.

An EU national has the right to work and live in any other EU member state. So yes, the EU remains a group of nations, yet those nations are very close to being a single nation in many aspects under the EU framework, and that is the case with regard to what you are talking about.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):EU citizens have freedom of movement without visa restrictions in Schengen zone countries. UK and others do NOT participate and have full border and passport controls. On my French residency permit and Australian passport, I get the third degree without exception from surly UK Border control staff, convinced my only aim in life is to stay more than 3 months and work illegally. Same when I go to the US.

You are mixing things up ozglobal. The Schengen area has nothing to do with the right to free movement of EU nationals within the EU.
The Schengen agreements was not taken on by Ireland or the UK for the simple reason that the UK felt that being an island nation, they needed to control their borders themselves against immigration (not EU-nationals). Ireland was always favourable to the Schengen agreement, but as we have a free travel area agreement with the UK, we have waited to join the Schengen agreement as if we did while the UK maintains it's opt-out clause/right, this would mean the creation of a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
Any EU citizen has the same rights to live and work in a non-Schengen EU nation as a Schengen nation. You as a non-EU citizen, and having I imagine a French residency permit, well the law throughout the EU (including Ireland and the UK) is that you can move freely around the EU (including Ire and UK yet as we have borders, you will be controlled) but with your French permit, you are only allowed to stay for up to 3 months in any other EU country without applying for a residency permit in that country.

I don't think anything is wrong with Europe because of this rule... don't really understand your question to be honest.

Well I suppose a country should avoid making a law that conflicts with an EU directive (which I imagine has been agreed on following consultation with all member states).
If a national law conflicts with an EU law, you can bring this fact to court, and in theory, problem solved.

It's EU bolloxology, and entirely how you wish to read it. At no time will I ever refer to myself as EU citizen, because I share your view that you can only be a citizen of a nation that exists, and the EU is not a nation. I am a British Citizen, or if you like a citizen of a country which is currently a Member State of the European Union. I do not hold joint UK/EU nationality.

To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):What is wrong with Europe that they would make a deal like that? And what happens if they make a law in conflict with "EU Law?" Do they get invaded by the EU Army?

The EU works by the rule of law and by the fact that all european member states have a strict seperation of powers.

ALL courts from ALL EU member states accept rulings of the European Court of Justice. This means if something is unlawful according to the European Court of justice, the national courts adopt this in their legislation.

The Federal German constitutional court several times stated that they retained their right to stay critical on rulings of the European court of justice, but so far they never ever objected to a ruling by the ECJ.

So what does that mean. The ECJ has the doctrine that if a national member state law is violating EU law, the EU law prevails. Since the EU is built on the doctrine of limited powers, a national law can only violate an EU law on a field where the EU has a competence. THe competence is granted to the EU by regular treaties, like the Lisbon treaty.

Now sometimes the ECJ unfortunately has a tendency to widen its competence, but that is another point I wont discuss here.

In any case, what happens if a national law violates an EC law?

If you are affected, you can go agaist the national law (or verdicts placed on the national law) at your own nations court. The court then rules that the EC law must be applied, and applies the EC law. It ignores the national law.

Now, because of the seperation of powers, the executive power of course must adhere to the ruling brought forward by their national court.

If a US court finds an administrative measure unlawful, your own police cannot ignore the ruling, either.

The whole system would collapse if national courts would no longer accept this rule of the European Court of justice. This is very unlikely, though.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 6):On my French residency permit and Australian passport, I get the third degree without exception from surly UK Border control staff, convinced my only aim in life is to stay more than 3 months and work illegally. Same when I go to the US.

As you said yourself, you are a resident, not a citizen. EU Citizens are treated far more kindly by UK border authorities.

Also, don't direct your anger at the ridiculously xenophobic US immigration/customs system at this. Two different things.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 9):You choose to ignore the parallel: they have both overstayed a three month residency permit.

Except that one is not a citizen of the community, the other is.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 13):Can you imagine if Turkey with its 70 millioin strong population were integrated overnight into the EU with freedom of movement too?

Some Turks would move to the EU (probably to Germany, where they would have a big support system) and lots of British pensioners would buy cheap property on Turkish beaches, without bothering to learn the language.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 13):I'm all for strong links with Turkey and Romania, but societies cannot reach equilibrium overnight; it is like opening the gates on a series of locks on a canal at the same time. You have to take it one stage at a time...

I'm sorry, but this smacks of xenophobia.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 15):Once you've been swarmed by them every day for years, you'll start to sound the same....

You know, this is the same argument a lot of BNP/Front National/NPD bigots make. You should think about that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):The French can make and enforce whatever visa, immigration, and citizenship laws they want.

Not when dealing with EU Citizens.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):OK. I'm a North American citizen, but what does that get me?

Well, if we ever enter into a North American Economic Community/Union, perhaps free movement, residence and work in Canada and Mexico?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):You can't be a national of something that isn't a nation.

Sure, but nationalism isn't what we are talking about here. You can be a citizen of a community, which is exactly with Roma are.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):And what happens if they make a law in conflict with "EU Law?" Do they get invaded by the EU Army?

No. They obey rule of law. Novel concept, eh?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):What is wrong with Europe that they would make a deal like that?

Once you've been swarmed by them every day for years, you'll start to sound the same....

You know, this is the same argument a lot of BNP/Front National/NPD bigots make. You should think about that.

Your comments sound like knee-jerk political correctness. You should think about that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):Quoting ozglobal (Reply 13):
I'm all for strong links with Turkey and Romania, but societies cannot reach equilibrium overnight; it is like opening the gates on a series of locks on a canal at the same time. You have to take it one stage at a time...

I'm sorry, but this smacks of xenophobia.

So unless I accept unlimited, uncritical and open-ended immigration from any country in the world immediately; If I question it at all, it's xenophobia. No, your comments smack of political correctness and conveniently avoid engaging the problems.

We are speaking of the 20 000 or so recently arrived Romanian Roma. They are a highly organized petty criminal mob, illegally in the country on the whole. They are engaging in what ranges from at best nuisance and at worst blatantly criminal behaviour, they are exploding numbers and the situation goes from bad to worse. I never said I agreed deportations were the best solution if your read my posts. However, to even discuss all this as a problem is a thought crime for you.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 18):It is a problem when people refuse to notice or acknowledge that all these other people are also "real" Roma

Who has problem to aknowledge "real" Roma whenever someone breaks from the vicious cycle of "different set values"? Romas ostracize their own who lead decent lives because they are deemed to be too much "white" in their behavior. That's why there is such a problem with having any leadership the roma would acknowledge and respect themselves and those who present themselves as such usually only discovered the beauty of "ethnobusiness" and making living out od Soros' funds.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):Are they going to round up all the illegal Moroccans or Algerians and deport them?

Of course not, on the other hand you can't really blame Sarkozy for choosing an easier task without the iminent risk having half of Paris ablaze again? Besides, this deportation is just a futile PR exercise, they will take the cash, enjoy the flight and will be back within days or weeks.
Anyway, if the French preach to others about stepping up "integration" aand all those other pc buzzwords... why not show the Romanians and everyone else how to do it. There are plenty of success stories around Parisian suburbs and other so called "ZUS"... are there not?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):Quoting ozglobal (Reply 13):
I'm all for strong links with Turkey and Romania, but societies cannot reach equilibrium overnight; it is like opening the gates on a series of locks on a canal at the same time. You have to take it one stage at a time...

I'm sorry, but this smacks of xenophobia.

Xenophobia: an intense fear or dislike of foreign people, their customs and culture, or foreign things.

Let's see, Roma (traditional types) live outside the system but inside its area.
They are not in parallel or on the verge, they are living a life in a system of their own.
They settle where the municipality will allow them, they pay no rents, no municipal services (but they benefit from), no distribution services bills (but they have water and electricity), no taxes of any sort, they drive cars that would not even pass an inspection by a blind person, they wear no seatbelts, all the family including small children and babies are stuffed in the front seats, children and teenagers are found begging at stop lights, etc, etc.
It would never come to the mind of a police officer or a municipal authority or sanitary service or education department to do something about anything concerning the Roma. (in Greece)
Would you call xenophobia the fact that I dislike the situation, not necessarily the people, whereby I have to abide by the rules and they dont have to ?
Guess how fast and where I would end up if I dared to do a tenth of what they do, or dont.
Conclusion (one of at least): there are laws and rules for ordinary citizens and basically none applies to the Roma.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):Romas ostracize their own who lead decent lives because they are deemed to be too much "white" in their behavior.

'I can confirm this from having known a Romanian Roma family quite well in Berlin in the 1990s. Back then the mother, who was living with her two daughters in a home for abused women afther having been beaten by her husband, insisted on at least her younger daughter (who was around 10 years old at this time) to go to regular school. For her older daughter, who was around 16 it was already too late. The mother, who looked old, but probably was just in her mid forties, even though being almost analphabeitical, was not stupid and got herself a job with the German Red Cross as a translator.
But the family faced huge pöressure from their relatives, especially the grandparents, who insisted that the daughters should be raised in the traditional way and that school was just assimilating them.
Through them I also know that the whole begging and petty crime scheme is a scam run by organised crime. The beggars and pickpockets themselves are rather victims as well. Most of them are far over their heads in debt with Roma loansharks (regular banks in Romania wouldn´t give them loans, especially since most of them don´t have jobs). If theey can´t repay their loans at exorbitant interest rates, they´ll have to go abroad to beg or steal. All the profits will go to the gang. If you watch the beggars carefully, you´ll often see some muscular men hanging around nearby, watching them.
It is a bit like prostitutes and pimps.
On the other hand, if you know a Roma family closer and are not considered a "mark", they are often the most hospitable and friendly people.

Citizenship: relationship between an individual and a State in which the individual owes allegiance to the State and in turn is entitled to its protection
In general, full political rights, the right to vote and hold public office are predicated on citizenship.
Citizenship entails obligations, usually including allegiance, payment of taxes and military service.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 33):ALL courts from ALL EU member states accept rulings of the European Court of Justice. This means if something is unlawful according to the European Court of justice, the national courts adopt this in their legislation.

Not entirely true since there are few EU rules without exceptions.

Danish voters turned down the Maastrict Treaty at a referendum in 1992, but accepted it in 1993 with the "Edinburgh Amendments".

One of the Edinburgh Amendments states that Denmark does not take part in ECJ work and certain judicial co-operation in criminal matters. Which has the effect that in certain cases EU legislation cannot overrule Danish legislation.

The UK and Ireland have similar opt-outs, but not entirely identical to this Danish opt-out.

Five countries have important opt-outs related to various EU rulings: Sweden, Poland, UK, Ireland and Denmark.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 33):So what does that mean. The ECJ has the doctrine that if a national member state law is violating EU law, the EU law prevails. Since the EU is built on the doctrine of limited powers, a national law can only violate an EU law on a field where the EU has a competence. THe competence is granted to the EU by regular treaties, like the Lisbon treaty.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):Who has problem to acknowledge "real" Roma whenever someone breaks from the vicious cycle of "different set values"? Romas ostracize their own who lead decent lives because they are deemed to be too much "white" in their behavior. That's why there is such a problem with having any leadership the roma would acknowledge and respect themselves and those who present themselves as such usually only discovered the beauty of "ethnobusiness" and making living out od Soros' funds.

Wow...where to begin.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):Romas ostracize their own who lead decent lives because they are deemed to be too much "white" in their behavior.

1.) In terms of "traditional" culture, that is only true of the most traditional Roma, most often from Romania, and some very small minority of the Roma in other countries.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):'I can confirm this from having known a Romanian Roma family quite well in Berlin in the 1990s. Back then the mother, who was living with her two daughters in a home for abused women afther having been beaten by her husband, insisted on at least her younger daughter (who was around 10 years old at this time) to go to regular school. For her older daughter, who was around 16 it was already too late. The mother, who looked old, but probably was just in her mid forties, even though being almost analphabeitical, was not stupid and got herself a job with the German Red Cross as a translator.
But the family faced huge pöressure from their relatives, especially the grandparents, who insisted that the daughters should be raised in the traditional way and that school was just assimilating them.

I'm not surprised by MD11Engineer's story, but I also know that in most countries 90% of the Roma, and all the ones I know, mainly in the Czech republic but also in several other countries, do not force their children into begging or begrudge them their lifestyle. I'm sure there are a few of those people, but not many.

It's like there are a small group of Orthodox Jews (a small minority of the Jews in the world) who think that all Conservative and especially Reformed Jews are lost causes and would disown their children for marrying one, or going to normal schools, or throw rocks at the ones who drive on the Sabbath; it doesn;t mean the other Jews aren't "real Jews."

On the other hand, I know many Roma,--my wife included--who will tell off, even publicly, Roma that are begging or that refuse to send their kids to school.

2.) Now, a big difference is the ghetto cycle, which is less cultural and completely worldwide. There may be dysfunction, crime, etc. without that having anything to do with "tradition." Are there many Roma who have been screwed who have taken up an "oppositional culture" as in any ghetto group? Yes. Just as if you go to any working class group, you will find some who resent people who move up socially as "elitist" etc. And more to the point, if you go, for example, to a hopeless "sink estate" in Glasgow you will find all the same dysfunction, crime, antisocial behavior, burned out and boarded up windows, litter, and all the distrust of "the man" and all the distrust of or aversion to traditional education you would find in the very worst Romany ghettos like Chanov--and yet all those people in that ghetto are WHITE. In other words, this broader issue simply has nothing to do with Roma or their "traditions." That is a ghetto mentality, and it is a hard cycle to break.

Therefore, the truth is that the situation in France, and the situation, in say, Slovakia, are totally different, and yet, they are also linked since most people don't bother distinguishing different Roma from each other. Eastern European tabloid-type media are happily proclaiming about the France expulsion finally showing those snooty westerners "what those Gypsies are really like that we have to deal with every day"--even though that is a ridiculously broad and racist way to conflate things, since the issues are pretty much separate from those in the countries where these headlines are appearing, and don't involve camps, etc. Indeed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this media frenzy was linked to the crazy guy who just went on a shooting rampage in Bratislava killing a large Romany family in their apartment building, who, by the accounts of their neighbors, didn't bother anyone. But that is speculation...so who knows...on to the next point:

How about all the people who won't hire them when they apply for a job and have a Romany last name and/or it is obvious from skin color, etc.?

So the answer: A massive percentage of the population in your country and many others has a problem with this. There was a poll (I think in Lidove Noviny) a few years back that 75% of Czechs approved of private firms being able to discriminate against Roma job applicants, since private firms should be able to "hire whoever they want based on past experience." It would be delusional to think that it isn't MUCH harder for a Rom to get a job than a white person with the same credentials (and there have been domestic newspaper exposes of the same issue). I know countless Roma who got jobs over the phone that magically disappeared when they showed up...

Furthermore, as just another example, not just a few but the majority of social workers working in the adoption process in the Czech and Slovak republics are telling parents things like that they shouldn't adopt Romany kids (including newborns) because they will [presumably genetically] always cause problems when they hit puberty, run away or lack morals, or whatever. I can confirm that this is the case from our own experiences adopting and from what I have heard from nearly 100% of white parents we know who adopted Romany kids there. In the words of the woman who is head of the Czech organization for training potential foster parents: taking Romany babies into a white family "is like adopting a puma into a family of domestic cats."

So that's who has a problem accepting that "real" Roma aren't inherently "different" and actually come in all kinds.

To address your question more literally: it's almost a joke how many times my wife and other "successful" Roma have been told by white Eastern Europeans, and a few naive Americans who think Roma are just characters in fairy tales "Oh, but you can't be a real Gypsy because you have a postgraduate degree and you don't live in a wagon/camp/ghetto etc.

No Roma have ever told her this. And she has worked with hundreds of Romany school kids as a volunteer and met the parents too. (That's beyond her own family and friends.)

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):Besides, this deportation is just a futile PR exercise, they will take the cash, enjoy the flight and will be back within days or weeks.

There, however, I agree with you. Populist targeting of the easy/obvious targets is always good for politicians in trouble, and it is usually done in a stupid way, like this. Since many of the particular people in question are NOT concerned with the law, etc., of course they will take the money and come back.

As I said in the other post, I don't actually have a problem with deporting Roma who are camping illegally, or even present illegally, in France. But the way it is being done is playing to and enforcing popular prejudices to curry political points rather than actually helping the problem, it seems.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 42):How about all the people who won't hire them when they apply for a job and have a Romany last name and/or it is obvious from skin color, etc.?

I have to say that for myself (and most Germans as well) that I wouldn´t even recognised a Romany family name. And dark skin is normally no obstacle for employment in Germany. It is more the attitude how you appear in your job interview and you past performance (school grades, references from past jobs etc.). Obviously, if you appear with a glorified ghetto attitude as e.g. promoted by hip hoppers (or as what we would call "Proletenhaft", the attitude you described in your earlier post) you won´t get hired except for very low positions. In any case, the Roma I know don´t have darker skins that e.g. the on average very successfull Spanish immigrants we have in Germany Most of them back in the 1960s were opponents of the fascist dictator Franco and knew that as long as Franco was in power they would not be able to return home. So they decided to make the best out of their stay in Germany and insisted that their children should learn fluent German and go through the regular education system. The result is that the percentage of second generation Spanish immigrants, who went through university and third level education in Germany is just as high as with the German population, quite unlike most second generation Italian and Turkish immigrants, who were basically raised between cultures because their parents always had the option of going back and wanted to keep that door open for themselves and have many high school drop outs and less people who graduated with a university degree) or many Turkish.

Concerning that family, back in the early 1990s we had a large wave of Roma asylum seekers from Romania coming to Germany, who attracted attention because they acted very different from the assimilated Roma living in Germany (many of the older ones survivors of Nazi crimes and quite a few of them quite sucessfull, though I got surprised when I heard who actually was of Roma heritage) . I met this family through my African ex-wife, who was for a while staying in the same refugee camp and became friends with the mother.

What the French are doing IS xenophobic. Indeed, the problems between the French and the Roma date WAY before the addition of Romania into the EU, as do the general problems with bigotry against the Roma in Europe as a whole.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):France is a sovereign state that should be able to make its own laws.

France is a sovereign state that does make its own laws. It also enters into treaties, which have always taken precedence over non-constitutional national laws. The EU and EEC have been formed by decades of treaties. Get it?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):Except that you run into problems when the "community" is supra-national. The EU doesn't have embassies, or an army, or their own passports.

Why is an army, which the EU arguably has given the links between the various armies, so important? As for passports, every EU member state passport is an EU passport. Embassies are diplomatic, not "national." Iran doesn't have an embassy in the US. Does that mean it is not a state?

Incidentally, you really should read up on the difference between a nation and a state.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):So, what happens when the EU passes a law that works great for France and Germany but not for the UK? What if the Turks don't like a law that the Italians are pushing?

You should research what the EU can and can't do before throwing out half-cocked statements like that. Also, if you believe in rule of law, then you should understand how this all interacts.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):Because North America, like Europe, is not homogeneous culturally, economically, or politically.

Actually, North America is far more homogeneous, particularly the NAFTA countries, than Europe is in all of those ways. Very similar political systems, facially. Similar economies, with the Canadians being the rich, the US the middle-class and the Mexicans the working class (that's going to rile some feathers). I personally would welcome a significant thinning of the borders.

Well yes, but those exceptions are part of the legal framework. When Denmark said no in 92, they got their "forbehold", so in fact the treaty was amended with protocols stating, Denmark does not need the Euro and does not need the cooperation in legal matters (which, btw, is the most rediculous decision ever made, as it simply makes legal cooperation with denmark a pain in the ass). The ECJ rules according to the treaty, and since the protocol to the treaty says, denmark has the exception there that those laws dont apply, the ECJ is bound to this legal framework.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):So, what happens when the EU passes a law that works great for France and Germany but not for the UK? What if the Turks don't like a law that the Italians are pushing?

If it gets adopted anyway then this is bad luck, the states have to cope with it. That is why the legal framework on how new legislation is adopted at the EU is so complicated. The Commission brings forward new laws, and it is adopted in cooperation by the parliament and the council, which is the representation of the member states. There are different procedures in place for passing a law. Some laws need consent of all member states, some are adopted by majority of member states and so on. "Important" tasks usually need consent.

This is the main reason why there is always so much struggle going on when negotiating a new treaty, because the tendency goes towards more laws to be requiring only adoption by the majority. In the early days, virtually every state could block a law when he said it was against its own interest. Today this is no longer the case, meaning the likelyhood of laws which are against the interests of one member state has increased.

However, usually member states try to find a compromise. This is what many people critizice of the EU, because it means that member states meet behind closed doors in order to negotiate compromises (like: Dont be too strong on environmental issues for our german car industry, on the other hand we will allow your tobacco industry to be subsidised for some more years).

But once the laws are adopted, they are accepted in the EU. If they are not, the commission can sue the member state before the ECJ.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):I have to say that for myself (and most Germans as well) that I wouldn´t even recognised a Romany family name. And dark skin is normally no obstacle for employment in Germany

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. I am referring to countries East of Germany where there is a large Romany population that is the main and/or only dark-skinned group, and who are immediately recognizable.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):France is a sovereign state that should be able to make its own laws.

With all respect, this shows a complete lack of understanding of the EU. If what you said were true, well then France should leave the EU. But France opted to be an EU member, and remains so, thus they logically accept that what you say above is not entirely applicable.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 44):Indeed, the problems between the French and the Roma date WAY before the addition of Romania into the EU, as do the general problems with bigotry against the Roma in Europe as a whole.

N1120A apart from pointing out the floors in the arguments of other posters (and perhaps their characters), I've seen on your part no constructive proposition at all to deal with the problem . What constructive proposal do you have for what all seem to agree is a significant social problem?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):France is a sovereign state that should be able to make its own laws.

It is, but it has decided itself to limit its sovereignity on certain fields by ratifying all international treaties. And those treaties limit the possibilites of expelling people from other EU member states (they don't forbid it per se, but it is very difficult to do it legally).

The EU is a supranational body. Its fundament are international treaties, but its law is direclty appliccable in the member states (at least the treaty itself and regulations, but this is hardly the place to explain how the EC works).

If you are a member of the EC, you must accept the rule of law. If you don't like it, feel free to quit (which would be extremely stupid).