Regarding: JUST BE AWARE OF THE MEANING OF "STOP". IN THE TAIJI THIS WORD IS A NO-NO! MUST BE AVOID! THE MEANING OF "KNOWING", IF YOU THINK, THAT SHOW YOU ARE NOT IN THE 'KNOWING.'

I agree. I should be more careful, because 止 here doesn't really mean "stop" as in "come to a halt." It's more about knowing that when your intention has arrived where it needs to be, you should be aware of that instance, be able to sustain it, and become skilled at reaching it consistently.

It occurs to me that a modern way of expressing the idea of 知止 might be to find and know the "sweet spot," or "the zone." It doesn't always happen in taijiquan practice, so when it does, you need to be aware that you're "in the zone" and pay attention so that the likelihood of arriving there again increases.

In addition to the links provided above in answer to your question about the Zhu Xi text:

Here is a link to the Book of Changes commentary, the Xi Ci, http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?search ... 3%E7%9F%A5 and the specific section Zhu Xi was discussing when he used the phrase 物來順應. The particular line he is discussing is 乾以易知，坤以簡能。Translated by Legge as “It is by the ease with which it proceeds that Qian directs (as it does), and by its unhesitating response that Kun exhibits such ability.” For comparison, Wilhelm/Baynes translates it as “The Creative knows through the easy. The Receptive can do things through the simple.” (Wilhelm/Baynes, The I Ching or Book of Changes, p. 286. Another translation renders it “Qian through ease provides mastery over things, and Kun through simplicity provides capability.” (Richard John Lynn, The Classic of Changes: A New Translation of the I Ching as Interpreted by Wang Bi, p. 48.

When Zhu Xi writes, 『物來 順應 』者，簡也, he is glossing and explicating 簡(simplicity) as “complying with things as they come.” Legge was evidently relying on Zhu Xi (as he usually did) in his understanding of 簡 as “unhesitating response.”

It’s interesting to read through these old texts and kind of get into Wu Yuxiang’s mind a little bit—see what kinds of things he occupied himself with. This same Xi Ci, of course, is the probable locus classicus of the term 太極, and other language and terms from the Xi Ci crop up in other taijiquan classics and writings by later masters.

Regarding: JUST BE AWARE OF THE MEANING OF "STOP". IN THE TAIJI THIS WORD IS A NO-NO! MUST BE AVOID! THE MEANING OF "KNOWING", IF YOU THINK, THAT SHOW YOU ARE NOT IN THE 'KNOWING.'

I agree. I should be more careful, because 止 here doesn't really mean "stop" as in "come to a halt." It's more about knowing that when your intention has arrived where it needs to be, you should be aware of that instance, be able to sustain it, and become skilled at reaching it consistently.

It occurs to me that a modern way of expressing the idea of 知止 might be to find and know the "sweet spot," or "the zone." It doesn't always happen in taijiquan practice, so when it does, you need to be aware that you're "in the zone" and pay attention so that the likelihood of arriving there again increases.

What do you think?

Take care,Louis

HI MR.SWAIN,

NOW YOU ARE SPEAKING OUR LANGUAGE, THE PLAIN ENGLISH THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND AND TAKE IT TO THE PARK AND PRACTICE TAIJI WITH IT.. ON BEHALF OF 99.5% TAIJI APPRENTICE WE THANK YOU.

Great dialogue! There has been great food for thought. Unfortunately, I have been busy with this or that and so have not been able to participate as much as would like. Here are a few more thoughts, however.

發勁須上下相隨，乃能一往無敵. 立身須中正不偏，方能八面支撐.To issue energy you must mutually coordinate upper and lower, then you can issue in one direction without equal. The upright body must be centered and correct and not lean, only then can you support [force] from the eight directions.

FYI, at I recent seminar in Connecticut (which I really enjoyed), Master Yang Jun quoted "立身須中正 that Dave kindly translated as "The upright body must be centered and correct and not lean." He explained that the 中 (zhōng) of 中正 (zhōngzhèng) does not really mean in the middle or in the center, but suggests more finding a place of harmony between extremes.

I can’t quite agree, Audi, that it’s a yin/yang pair; I think it’s just two desirable taiji skills.

My understanding is different. By sticking to an opponent, I am not trying to control him; I am in fact yielding to him. I yield not only to his movement, but to his intention as well. I am letting him do whatever he wants; I am not imposing my intention on him. (Louis had a discussion with Omar a couple of years ago about this line. I liked Louis' explanation very much. The relevant post is here.)

If the opponent pushes me, I stick to him and go where he wants me to go; and by sticking to him I understand his push and am able (hopefully) to change and yield. If I push him, I merely stick and follow wherever he wants to go; and by doing so (hopefully) be comes to a point where he feels trapped, he stiffens up, and I am able to issue energy to put him out. This issuing is what I understand by the yang side of the sticking/yielding yin.

My words reflect my own thoughts and understanding, rather than my teacher's words; however, at the seminar I attended, Master Yang used the word "control" over and over again. During the push hands portion, he even had us do "simple" exercises where he had us practicing free one-hand circles in four ways: with one partner being yin and the other yang, the reverse, one partner forcing the other to remain yin, and one partner forcing the other to remain Yang. As I understood it, sometimes you want to be leading and sometimes you want the opponent/partner to lead

Our basic/intermediate push hands may be somewhat different than what I see usually demonstrated on YouTube. Our basic practice involves neither free pushing nor set pattern circling looking for a defect or opening. We learn both to initiate and to react to initiation. At the seminar, Master Yang quoted the maxims "If the opponent doesn't move, you don't move; if the opponent moves even slightly, you move first" and "Launch later, but arrive first." He explained that this doesn't literally mean that you can do nothing if the opponent does not move or give you the energy you need. You always have the option of inducing the opponent to act in the way you need.

According to my understanding and the references Master Yang has made in the past, our touchstone in this is Sunzi's Art of War. You cannot force victory unless the opponent give you the opportunity: however, nothing prevents you from trying to create such opportunities. Caution dictates that you usually want to wait for your opponent/partner to reveal his or her full and empty before doing anything, but if you must you can use an "empty" motion to encourage this.

When we first start practicing applications, we do it out of the circling, typically our vertical two-hand circle. The partner need not have any attacking intent and does not need to make a mistake or have a defect in her or his structure. You are expected to learn how to induce your partner to give you the energy you need for your technique. In these circumstance, you begin in control. We then learn to counter. In those cases, your partner begins in control, but you take it over.

THE YIN DOESN'T REQUIRED THE EXISTENCE OF YANG TO EXIST AND THE YANG DOESN'T REQUIRED THE EXISTENCE OF YIN TO BEING EXIST. THEY ARE TWO SEPARATED INDIVIDUAL WORKING AS A POLARITY PAIR, BUT EACH HAVE IT OWN NATURE. BUT THIS "MIDDLE" DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE EXISTENCE THIS TWO, THE YIN YANG. THEY NEED THIS "MIDDLE" TO CONNECTING THEMSELVES. SO WHEN YOU TRANSLATED THE 'CONTROL" [YANG] 'IS ACTUALLY' THE "YIELD"[YIN]' . THIS DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A USER FRIENDLY BECAUSE IT A BIT CONFUSING TO THE 99.5% OF US. THAT WAS WHY I ASKED ,"ARE YOU SURE OF ALL THAT?" JUST TO COMPARE NOTES TO HEAR THE REST OF YOUR STORY.

I think I understand what you are trying to get at, but my understanding is somewhat different. There is no middle, and there is no Yin without Yang and no Yang without Yin. There is no Taiji without both Yin and Yang creating, destroying, helping, and fighting each other. One of my teachers once cited a sheet of paper to describe this. The top is Yang and the bottom is Yin. You cannot slice the paper to separate the top and the bottom. Even if somehow you could slice the sheet in two, you would not separate top from bottom, but merely create two tops and two bottoms. There is no real "middle." Even if we talk of the heavens as Yang, the earth as Yin, and humans as in the middle, this middle is really just a mixture of Yin and Yang. The pure Yang of the heavens and the pure Yin of the earth are beyond our knowledge and outside the Taiji.

THIS IS CALL "HARMONIZING THE YIN YANG.( TO BE IN 50-50,NOT 30-70 OR 40-60- WHAT IS MY IS MINE AND WHAT IS YOUR IS OUR DOESN'T WORK WELL HERE) DURING THEIR WORKING HOUR THEY ARE NOT ALLOW TO DISCONNECTING/(TOO YIN) FROM NOR BULLYING/(TOO YANG) TO EACH OTHER. AND NO COFFEE BREAK OR ANY OTHER BREAKS WHAT-SO-EVER! BECAUSE ALL TAIJI MOVEMENTS ONCE MOVING(YANG) SHOULD HAVE NO BREAK AND "VALUED" IT TO "BE DONE IN ONE BREATH" AND BE COOL(IN STILLNESS) ABOUT IT(YIN), SO THERE IS NO HAVEY BREATHING. BUT A QUICKIE SUCH AS FA-JIN TO RELEASE ONES ARROW AS SPEEDY IS FORGIVING, IF ONE CAREFULLY PREPARED. WITH THIS 'MIDDLE'/中 BETWEEN THEM, THE ONLY PLACE THE YIN YANG CAN DO THEIR CHANGE. THEY CAN ROLL IN THE HAY TO BECOME ONENESS OF " STEEL WRAPED IN COTTON/(HAY IS OK)'. THROUGH THIS HARMONIZATION SHALL COME FORTH SOMETHING THE TAIJI CALL THE COMPLEMENTARY FORCE. (STILL 50 YIN-50 YANG! BUT NOW IS A TOTAL OF 100 (FULL).

Again, my understanding is a little different. Ratios like 30-70 OR 40-60 are fine, the only forbidden ones are 100-0 and 0-100. Harmonization of Yin and Yang does not require 50-50, but only a total of 100 that both contribute to. Different circumstances call for different ratios. Also, for me, the secret to Taijiquan is not that we conform to this truth, but rather that all martial arts do, whether they want to or not and whether they realize it or not. It is not needle and cotton, but needle-in-cotton. Both are there, but depending on circumstances, we want our opponent to feel more needle or more cotton. What confounds them is that we always have both, even when they expect one or the other. We learn to use soft to overcome hard and then learn to use hard and soft together.

AS TO " I can control only by avoiding being control and can avoid being controlled only by having control."

THIS IS ALL DEPEND ON WHO HAVE A BETTER FORCUS/YIN(THE MIND AIM INWARDLY TO A -POINT) ON A LARGER SCALE OF ATTENTION/YANG(THE MINDS BEING EXPAND OUTWARDLY), A LONGER SPANS OF FANG-SONG IN PHYSICAL(YIN) AS WELL AS MINDFULNESS(YANG). MORE IMPORTANTLY WHO CAN KEEP ONES CENTERED BODY/YIN TO MAINTIAN CENTERED IN THE GRAVITY CRADLE/YANG THE LONGEST. THIS IS TO SAY WHO HAVE THE BETTER KNOWING WITHOUT THINKING(YANG), TO FEEL(YIN) THE DISTINCTION OF THE YIN YANG WITH ITS CHANGING WITH A CHANGE IN THE NEUTRAL/TAIJI POINT, FROM ONE'S CENTER/中 THAT ALWAYS ATTACKING THE OPPONENT'S CENTER BALANCE.

Here, I think, my understanding is the same as yours, and this is why we practice. Knowing the center, finding it, and being able to stay in it is not easy.

To me, the ‘nine bends pearl’ fits well with my understanding of the major joints (bends) of the body being used to produce a spherical shape and energy (the pearl) during Taijiquan.

Dan, thank you for this image, which I think I missed on first reading. It is a nice image to focus on when doing form. My personal training approach relies heavily on visualizations that can allow me to make philosophy somewhat concrete, tangible, and subject to the senses.

By the way, how come everyone had such an interest in the "nine-bend pearl," but left me out to dry twisting in the wind during this discussion with Isaac888

“But the term’s meaning covers a broad spectrum, and because it has no strict limits, the notion of body thereby seems to be graduated. On the one hand, it is verb-like, connoting action (in the sense of giving form to and actualizing; compare xing xing: ‘to give form to form,’ to ‘bring it out’). On the other hand, used as a noun, it retains the idea of concrete, particular actualization. In this respect, it contrasts with the state in which something is invisible because it is not actualized.” —Francois Jullien, Vital Nourishment: Departing from Happiness, Zone Books, 2007, p. 68

Actually, I find this very interesting. It's not unusual for Chinese words to have a dynamic connotation even while being used as nouns, although this is awkward to render in English. And even to talk about being falcon-like "informing" our body is to have Aristotelian Formal Cause lurking in the background. But it's something to keep in mind when thumbing through the thesaurus looking for just the right word.

Louis and Dave, thank you for this discussion. It reminds me of a personal discovery I made a while back and tried to describe once on this board. When I first committed myself to the Association's approach, I say myself as trying to arrange my limbs in a way that imitated my teacher's form as closely as possible. As I gain in experience and understood the theory better, I realize that I should not look on the postures as human sculpture, but rather as embodying varying types of energy equilibrium. In other words, I had to mentally design the postures, but the energy would actually form them. In other words, I could design the "balloon" of my body shape; however, it was the air of its energy that actually needed to form the shape.

I know this passage may seem recondite, but this verbal sense of “forming” actually stimulates my thinking on these lines referencing a falcon about to seize a rabbit, or a cat about to catch a mouse. When we emulate the falcon, is it at the point where the falcon has spotted the rabbit and begun its dive, or at the point just above the rabbit on the ground, spreading its wings and stretching out its claws, or is it the whole progressive movement?

Louis, the image of the cat has always spoken to me; but the falcon, less so. With the cat, I can emulate the stepping, the focus, and the stillness; but how can emulate the wings and flight of the falcon? The image I have always assumed is that of a falcon with outstretched wings and talons outstretched. Can you or someone clarify what feeling this image is meant to evoke?

Receiving is the same as issuing, connect and don't separate. If you can be extremely soft, afterwards you can be extremely hard; if you can stick and follow, afterwards you can be extremely agile.The qi by this means is directly cultivated and not harmed; the energy by this means is stored in the curved and becomes abundant.Gradually come to understand what I have written and practice it; also by knowing when to stop you can get it!

--------------------------

The first line is close to what we find in the Mental Elucidation, but with the addition of a clarifying clause after the first clause: i.e., "Receiving is the same as issuing, issuing is the same as receiving." Also, the second part of the first line has "If you can breathe," rather than "if you can be extremely soft."

The second line is identical to the one in the Mental Elucidation, but the third line is new. I'm sure I haven't done it justice and the rendering can be improved. The second clause especially, with that 知止 pair which shows up in the Great Learning and a bunch of other places, is hard for me to decipher. The pair have the sense of knowing when to stop or rest and not overshooting the mark. But I'm not sure what Wu is saying here. Is this a general admonition to not go too far or try for too much? Or does he have something more specific in mind?

I agree. I should be more careful, because 止 here doesn't really mean "stop" as in "come to a halt." It's more about knowing that when your intention has arrived where it needs to be, you should be aware of that instance, be able to sustain it, and become skilled at reaching it consistently.

It occurs to me that a modern way of expressing the idea of 知止 might be to find and know the "sweet spot," or "the zone." It doesn't always happen in taijiquan practice, so when it does, you need to be aware that you're "in the zone" and pay attention so that the likelihood of arriving there again increases.

Given what you all have posted and commented, I wonder if it would be fruitful to examine the contrasts. The first line is pretty self evident, but in the second one we have contrasts between Qi 氣 and Jin 勁, between 以直 and 以曲, and between 養而無害 and 蓄而有餘。 Rather than understanding 以 as being equivalent to 以之, could we not understand it as governing the following word? We then might have something like:

"Qi is cultivated through straightness and not harmed; energy is stored through curvature and becomes abundant."

I would understand "straightness" as referring to smooth uninterrupted flow.

As for the third line, I like the spirit of Dave's rendering, but the meaning of Louis's. I also seem to recall that 亦 can introduce a question that is supposed to yield a positive answer. Perhaps something like this would capture what I guess might be the meaning:

"Gradually you reach the point of 'responding to things as they come.' Is this truly not 'knowing when, where, and how to stop, and thus obtaining (all)'?!"

I take this to be a reference to 无为 wúwéi: Don't try to do the job of the universe; work with it, not against it. Note that the Neo-Confucian view of this concept was somewhat different than the Daoist view.

Here is a link to the Book of Changes commentary, the Xi Ci, http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?search ... 3%E7%9F%A5 and the specific section Zhu Xi was discussing when he used the phrase 物來順應. The particular line he is discussing is 乾以易知，坤以簡能。

My speculation is that the original meaning of 易 did not clearly distinguish between "ease" and "change." This phrase could then be understood as something like: "Qian has knowledge through adaptability; Kun has capacity through simplicity." Zhu Xi might then be trying to say something like: "Adapt to things just as they come."

You wrote: "Louis, the image of the cat has always spoken to me; but the falcon, less so. With the cat, I can emulate the stepping, the focus, and the stillness; but how can emulate the wings and flight of the falcon? The image I have always assumed is that of a falcon with outstretched wings and talons outstretched. Can you or someone clarify what feeling this image is meant to evoke?"

This line of Wu Yuxiang's, 形如搏兔之鶻 "One's form is like a hawk (or falcon) seizing a rabbit" has always been a favorite of mine, and I've long suspected that Wu was referencing a chengyu that is used to describe great skill in calligraphy or in writing, 兔起鶻落 tù qǐ hú luò (literally, "the rabbit rises as the hawk lowers down.") I imagine Wu found this imagery evoking an almost simultaneous convergence of action between the predator and the prey perfectly applicable to taijiquan skill. So for me, it is less about the shape of the falcon, and more about her ability to focus, anticipate, and time her action into a sequenced flow. You can find Youtube videos of falcons, eagles, and other birds of prey dropping out of the sky and snatching a rabbit, a chicken, or a fish right out of a river. Here's a link to the zdic dictionary entry on the phrase. http://zdic.net/cd/ci/8/ZdicE5Zdic85Zdic9463804.htm It quotes the Song artist-poet Su Shi on painting bamboo, saying the painter must first have the bamboo fully formed in one's mind, and then he will be able to paint it instantaneously.

Audi wrote:By the way, how come everyone had such an interest in the "nine-bend pearl," but left me out to dry twisting in the wind during this discussion with Isaac888

Hi Audi,

This subject does not seem to have much consensus as to the meaning. While I get value in viewing it as referring to the bends/curves in the body, and the necessity of unifying the energy through them in order to produce spherical energy (energy in six directions), I would not be surprised to learn that my views are in the minority.

While I find it useful to look at the shoulder/elbow/wrist for the arms, the ankle/knee/hips (kua) for the legs, and the lumbar/thoracic/cervical curves of the spine (torso), others, like in the diagram in the discussion that you referred to, do not (i.e., the diagram list the waist/lower back, center, and jin source for the torso/spine).

I suspect that the diagram attempts to place nine pearls along a string where each contributes to the transmission of energy along the path from the foot to the hand and thus does not place one of the pearls at the cervical curve [rather, it places three pearls in a line between the hips and the shoulders]. I do not even know how prevalent the interpretation is that there are nine pearls on a string in contrast with there being one pearl with nine bends. In some ways, I think that both interpretations could be useful. Or, as Louis Swaim pointed out (and referenced Barbara Davis), it may not even be referring to specific anatomy.

Doing a Google search for ‘Images for 九曲珠’ does produce the image that Isaac888 posted. My ability to read Chinese is too poor to notice much specifically about the post:

THE YIN DOESN'T REQUIRED THE EXISTENCE OF YANG TO EXIST AND THE YANG DOESN'T REQUIRED THE EXISTENCE OF YIN TO BEING EXIST. THEY ARE TWO SEPARATED INDIVIDUAL WORKING AS A POLARITY PAIR, BUT EACH HAVE IT OWN NATURE. BUT THIS "MIDDLE" DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT THE EXISTENCE THIS TWO, THE YIN YANG. THEY NEED THIS "MIDDLE" TO CONNECTING THEMSELVES. SO WHEN YOU TRANSLATED THE 'CONTROL" [YANG] 'IS ACTUALLY' THE "YIELD"[YIN]' . THIS DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A USER FRIENDLY BECAUSE IT A BIT CONFUSING TO THE 99.5% OF US. THAT WAS WHY I ASKED ,"ARE YOU SURE OF ALL THAT?" JUST TO COMPARE NOTES TO HEAR THE REST OF YOUR STORY.

I think I understand what you are trying to get at, but my understanding is somewhat different. There is no middle, and there is no Yin without Yang and no Yang without Yin. There is no Taiji without both Yin and Yang creating, destroying, helping, and fighting each other. One of my teachers once cited a sheet of paper to describe this. The top is Yang and the bottom is Yin. You cannot slice the paper to separate the top and the bottom. Even if somehow you could slice the sheet in two, you would not separate top from bottom, but merely create two tops and two bottoms. There is no real "middle." Even if we talk of the heavens as Yang, the earth as Yin, and humans as in the middle, this middle is really just a mixture of Yin and Yang. The pure Yang of the heavens and the pure Yin of the earth are beyond our knowledge and outside the Taiji.

Audi,

I think that yslim is using terminology (philosophy & concepts) from ILiqChuan in his post, which may be unclear to TJQ practitioners who are unfamiliar with ILC.

The “middle” (more appropriately called the ‘neutral’) in ILC would indicate the S-curve that divides the yin from yang in the standard taiji diagram. It is where yin & yang touch, regardless of the relative abundance of either. Only at 50-50 yin/yang would ‘neutral’ be in the center (middle) of the taiji diagram. If not at 50-50, then it would be somewhere else along that S-curve to reflect the different ratios of yin and yang.

In ILC, as I understand it, you always want the contact point to be ‘neutral’ with yin on one side of the contact point and yang on the opposite side (simultaneously in multiple planes). Thus you always have the potential for both projecting against the contact point and absorbing from the contact point, and you would emphasize one or the other depending on the conditions present at that time.

Another way of looking at this concept, in a more TJQ friendly way, would be to say that if you are a sphere in contact with something else, and then rotate either in response to receiving energy from the point of contact (ILC ‘absorbing’), or to direct energy to the point of contact (ILC ‘projecting’), while maintaining the same point of contact on your sphere, then this would be ‘yin + yang + neutral.’ One side of the sphere would be rotating towards the point of contact while the opposite side would simultaneously be rotating away from the point of contact. Of course, you could also rotate while changing the point of contact, like a rolling ball would, while still maintaining yin and yang on opposite sides of the point of contact (one side of a rolling ball would be moving toward the point of contact while the opposite side would simultaneously be moving away from the point of contact.

It is probably too complicated to try and explain the concept in its entirety here, but I think you can get an idea of what ‘neutral’ may mean in ILC, and that this is likely what yslim was referring to when he referred to the “middle.”

Other pictures on the web site that I linked to above for the nine pearls chart seem to show different ways that a sphere held in the hands in front of the chest can rotate, as well as how that sphere can rotate in response to incoming force in order to redirect energy back towards the force (assuming that I am interpreting the diagrams correctly – especially since my ability to read Chinese is extremely limited).

One item that was unclear to me on the nine pearls chart was what is called the ‘jin source’ - point #6. I have not come across this terminology previously, and it does not seem to correlate to any point on meridian charts, so I wondered what it was referring to, and how it would relate to point #7 – the shoulders and ‘center’ point - #5.

This point seems to be elaborated upon in the following diagram on that web site, in combination with the sphere held in the hands (also showing incoming force as well as returning energy?). Could someone help translate &/or interpret this picture?