i will gig for free if there is a real return on my time investment. for example, if performing for free will get me loads of paying gigs later or the gig is filmed and i get the footage. but amanda is cycling through musicians. what cred or advantage can any one of them gain by saying 'i ''toured'' with amanda palmer?'. both she and the musicians who are flocking to her should be ashamed. i bet you she hasn't skimped on clothing or props in the budget. i can understand saving accomodation and bus money - but c'mon - pay the locals for their time at least - scrooge!

lol and this one:A guy calls the musicians' guild to get a quote on a 6 piece band for a wedding. The rep says "Off the top of my head, about $2000". He says, "WHAT? FOR MUSIC?. "The rep responds " I'll tell you what. Call the plumbers' union & ask for six plumbers to work from 6 to midnight on a Saturday night. Whatever they charge you, we'll work for half."

we must unite in our determination to make the world value what we do. We musicians are a chain. some of us over charge and other under charge or don't charge at all. we must be realistic but we must build into the cost of our performance the substancial and unseen investment we have made in time, energy and equipment.

Well, a quick read of the story reveals one important thing: she's extending the invitation to join her onstage to her fans who happen to play, and not to the professional music community. It's not a band, and doesn't involve traveling or any commitment beyond one show. And while the concept of exploitation is there, the payoff for the fan is that they get to appear with an artist they like. So, they're happy, don't feel used, get to meet and take pictures with the artist, and probably get fed as well.

From her point of view, carrying those players on the tour is costly. People don't think about it, but there's more to carrying extra players than just their salaries. There's extra per diems, extra hotels, and expanded transportation accommodations for those people.

I'm not defending her, but I understand what's involved carrying permanent personnel vs using local people. Most bands have a wise mix of both (I'm referring to the crew in this instance, but it extends to other personnel and in some cases, performers.) In terms of her using fans who play instruments, I don't see how that hurts anyone who's willing. Unfortunately, it just sounds cheap in the end. But if it was your $35k, and involved a part of the performance that could be satisfactorily covered by different local fans instead of hired players, you'd understand this move.

This isn't a band thing, it is Punk Theatre, which sheds a different light on it.
If she was someone like Lady Gagga turning up without a band asking Fred to strum his Strat for free then I would question it, but for a Punk Theatre I can see it adding value myself.

From her point of view, carrying those players on the tour is costly. People don't think about it, but there's more to carrying extra players than just their salaries. There's extra per diems, extra hotels, and expanded transportation accommodations for those people.

i get that john, but it creates a precedant and a slippery slope.

and yes. i understand not wanting to carry personell but at least pay the locals for their time. beer and hugs is insulting.

i would also play for a favourite, if it was just me and the kudos were there to help me further my career. if i was just part of a never ending chain of non paid session guys - there would be little in it for my career.

unless - the artist was incredibly fun to play with and all my family could come to the show for free.

I hate cheap people. I hate users. Cheap people suck and make me hope they have more difficulty than the money they save.

Cheap people suck. I would never support anyone with that attitude, I'd go out of my way to make things difficult for them, because they deserve it. Anyone who puts money in front of people are a form of a scumbag in my opinion, Amanda is a scumbag cheap user and I hope she contracts a bad disease and suffers. I hope she doesn't reproduce and I would publicly dress her down for using her clout to save money. I hope her shows get boycotted, but her idea will likey take off and things will get even worse. Thanks a lot Amanda. Human maggot.

and yes. i understand not wanting to carry personell but at least pay the locals for their time. beer and hugs is insulting.

j

I think playing for free as amatures,and semi-pro is becoming the rule,rather than the exception.Now a professional established singer song writer wants her back up band to do it for free?On a national tour?

That can indeed become a dangerous precedent.If she could somehow manage that,then why wouldn't more "artists" doing the same thing?

Sorry,I also agree that it's insulting to play for beer and hugs.If the "artist" gets paid,then so do I.My time and talent have value too.

Frankly, i have no idea who Amanda Palmer is. Nor do I care, reading the previous posts. But I make it a point to tell all whom I know who are having a wedding reception NOT to hire a DJ and go with live music instead. Personally, I think it's outrageous to pay a person $400 to punch a few buttons on a laptop for a couple of hours as opposed to maybe a few hundred dollars more for a live band. Just my opinion.

playing for free because its fun not only undermines the value, it basically states if you enjoy what you do, you shouldn't get paid. I think many people, not just artists, would fall under this category.

should we only get paid if we hate our jobs?

giving people a chance to play for a big artist is not recompense. should we only get paid if we've already been made? do undiscovered artists have to bear even more cost while waiting for their dreams to come true? it is heart breaking enough to practice like crazy and take risks and hope that it pasy off one day but know it probably won't. if we add this new pressure to the equation more people won't even bother. the world would be the poorer.
these musicians should at least be payed union standard rates for their stage time. shame amanda!

and yes. i understand not wanting to carry personell but at least pay the locals for their time. beer and hugs is insulting.

j

That's the thing, it's not a precedent that affects us as pros, or probably anyone we know. Palmer's behavior is more conceptually outrageous than it is in reality. No drummers, guitarists, keyboardists, vocalists, crew personnel, or professional players are being harmed or denied work, at least not from what I can determine from the article.

You have to understand the fans' perspective, it's a cool opportunity for them. Not an opportunity as players who might garner future work for their effort.... it's a safe bet that they won't. But as fans, they get to be close to the artist they like. Are these fans professional players? Not likely. But if one or two are, and they think it's cool to give an afternoon and evening to the artist, then that's their business, not ours. It's not as if Palmer is assembling a free band every night. It's horn and string players.

If this were being asked of pros who are an essential part of the performance, such as the band... then it's time to put out foot down. I sorta get why people are riled up, but this doesn't involve musicians. It's about fans who can play a horn or stringed instrument (I doubt that means a guitar, bass or piano in this case.)

Or, let's put it this way. Suppose you were in a touring band, and fans or contest winners or whatever in each city got to be part of the show somehow. Not as part of the band, but in some other manner of performance. And then let's say that the outraged permanent tour personnel thought this was unfair and insisted that the artist pay for those people in each town, or even bring people on the road as salaried employees. And then because if the extra expense, the band's salaries had to be adjusted. Is that better? Would you still insist on that arrangement in the name of fairness? Or should the artist just eat that, and make it up in record sales?

I think playing for free as amatures,and semi-pro is becoming the rule,rather than the exception.Now a professional established singer song writer wants her back up band to do it for free?On a national tour?

No no no.... see, this is where the problem lies. This is NOT a backup band being asked to work for free, and the horn and string players are not being asked to go on tour. It's one night for her fans who happen to play a horn or stringed instrument and think it would be cool to be seen onstage with her. At least that's the info presented in the article.

If she's getting drummers and guitar players etc to play for free on a national tour, I'd take a very different stance on this. But I can't find that in the article. Where is everyone getting this notion??

Well, you get what you pay for. I hope that it bites her in the bottom. I hope that she gets the worst horn players imaginable and I hope they screw up her show. Maybe I'll pretend I'm a fan and get up there and play a horn. Yea that will teach her.

Just more devaluing of musicians. Now it's originating from musicians, that's the part that makes me the maddest.

playing for free because its fun not only undermines the value... these musicians should at least be payed union standard rates for their stage time.

I guess that's the real question - what constitutes a musician? Is anyone capable of making musical sounds on an instrument considered a musician? Or does one have to desire some furtherment of their playing to be considered a musician? And at what point does either possess value?

As a pro, I get compensated for my work. Such a one-night-for-free arrangement would normally not appeal to me (although I could name many exceptions!) But let's say that I just toyed on an instrument, for fun, and don't do any paying gigs. If I was offered a spot in a low-budget gig as non-essential stage dressing that gets to make some musical sounds, should I become indignant and demand money?

Based on the article, that's all that's going on here. Pros aren't being asked to devalue themselves or other pros.

Sorry, but I have a unique knowledge of why this stuff is done. Sometimes that's a curse. But if we're going to share knowledge, all perspectives need to be brought up.

As a pro, I get compensated for my work. Such a one-night-for-free arrangement would normally not appeal to me (although I could name many exceptions!) But let's say that I just toyed on an instrument, for fun, and don't do any paying gigs. If I was offered a spot in a low-budget gig as non-essential stage dressing that gets to make some musical sounds, should I become indignant and demand money?

Based on the article, that's all that's going on here. Pros aren't being asked to devalue themselves or other pros.

Sorry, but I have a unique knowledge of why this stuff is done. Sometimes that's a curse. But if we're going to share knowledge, all perspectives need to be brought up.

Bermuda

Much of the outrage is not asking pros to work for free, but her claim she can't afford to pay a band when she raised $1.2 million dollars through kick start.

Ms. Palmer also said that she could not afford to pay the extra musicians she requests, a string quartet and three or four sax and brass players. The cost, she said, would be around $35,000 for all the tour dates.

The tour began on Monday in Philadelphia, and the band played Webster Hall in New York on Tuesday. Some three dozen dates are listed on the Web site. Tuesday was also the release date for Ms. Palmer’s new album, “Theater Is Evil,” which was paid for by a Kickstarter campaign that raised an enormous sum, $1.2 million.

She asked her fans for upfront money, got $1.2 million, but won't use any of it to support her own tour.

I think the real question is: Is she playing for free? Are the shows for free?

i hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here but this is what tommy igoe said about this:

''Well said everyone.
We've all done a few gigs for peanuts because we believe in the statement but this is a tour after a 7 digit kickstarter begathon.
Miss cello is being preyed upon shes just too naive to know. ''

i think you are somewhat right john, maybe some of these folks are just fans. but cello is a serious instrument that takes dedication and practice. and with over a million invested in the tour 35 000 is a pitance. now that was the cost with bus and hotels. takes these off and pay the local musos 100 for a gig and the number drops very low. surely they could have budgeted 5000 out of 1 200 000 to pay the locals.

of course, i never even heard of amanda until now so ... this has been great albeit negative publicity for her.

i think you are somewhat right john, maybe some of these folks are just fans. but cello is a serious instrument that takes dedication and practice. and with over a million invested in the tour 35 000 is a pitance.

I thought the kickstarter was for the album, not the tour. They're different.

I think the real question is: Is she playing for free? Are the shows for free?

She may be playing for free, I don't know if the shows are free, but there are certain expenses that aren't subjective and cannot be had for free: transportation rental and fuel costs, sound and light rental, hall rental, hotels, per diems, and those things that the promoter would normally provide such as meals, local crew, advertising, etc.

So it's completely possible that she's just hoping for album sales, and not personally making anything on the tour. With only a few exceptions, it's a club tour, and not likely it'll pay for itself anyway.

If she is playing free that's different. But if she is making big coin, then I thinks its cheap and tawdry lol.
The logistics...what do they do, send a guy out to the next city beforehand to audition players? The local horn players, in each city, how could they do it cold without a rehearsal? Reading the charts, right? How would the band know that whoever the local guys are can handle it? They hwould ave to rehearse them I would think. If they are on tour, how would they fit rehearsals in? They have to screen auditionees somehow. She can't just trust a guy with a trumpet to go up there cold and play with no prior contact. The whole thing just sounds frought with problems. What about security? IDK, I can't see any good reason to do this, except cheapness. Some local "musician" should shank her and stop this practice before it gets too widespread lol. I don't really mean that.

Her background is a street musician,so her perspective is" I don't want to get rich making music".So,she'll sleep on a fans couch,and willingly go on tour with a band that dosen't get paid,and pass the hat.She's done so in the past,and thinks this is the best way to "display" her art.She says that she makes sure her band is fed and has lodgeing via her fans.

That seems to be a little hit or miss to me.That's not how you make a living as a musician.How can you raise a family,have a stable relationship and provide a stable enviornment on such a tenuous existance?I guess if that's not what you care about,then it's not important.A little narcissistic if you ask me.

If you're all by yourself,I guess that's fine.But sooner or later responsibility(I know,the word some of us hate) rears it's ugly head.,and you have to think about health insurance,pension,paying the bills and the rest of life after music.